# Barefoot practice of Chinese Martial Arts?



## Ben S (Mar 27, 2017)

I've been practicing martial arts for 35 years, always barefoot -  this is common to the Japanese and Korean martial arts styles I've trained in - Uechi Ryu, Hayashi Ha - Shito Ryu and Shim Gum Do ( a zen martial art). 
I also practice yoga and live by the ocean - being barefoot is natural to me. MMA / UFC fighters also fight barefoot. I can't imagine training in shoes and after so many years, have adapted to practicing this way. For example - the bare foot will stick a bit to a varnished wooden floor, so I have learned over the years to lift my weight off a foot on which I am pivoting or turning, making it an integral part of how I move. I've recently become interested in baguazhang, which I always see performed in shoes. I'm a beginner to this art and am mainly doing circle walking with palm changes and of course, in bare feet. The sliding step in bagua takes a little more concentration in bare feet, but I am greatly enjoying the challenge! I am interested in your thoughts and experiences about practicing barefoot vs wearing shoes, especially in regard to the chinese martial arts.


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## mograph (Mar 27, 2017)

Our group (old-school Hong Kong guys living in Toronto) practices in street clothes, ostensibly because Sifu is not into formality, possibly because he was taught that way, or because we're not an official club, or because the floors where we practice are not swept, or because we might as well learn to fight in the stuff we wear every day.

You know, I'll ask next week.


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## clfsean (Mar 27, 2017)

I've practiced in shoes for about 20 years, coming from bare feet. I never had big issues adjusting... just like when I was a kid & ran around about 8 months of the year barefoot & only put them on grudgingly for cold weather. It's a thing. You get used to it. Sensitivity isn't lost, just changed & you gain a weapon with the shoe & a modicum of protection for the feet.


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## oaktree (Mar 27, 2017)

Ben S said:


> I've been practicing martial arts for 35 years, always barefoot -  this is common to the Japanese and Korean martial arts styles I've trained in - Uechi Ryu, Hayashi Ha - Shito Ryu and Shim Gum Do ( a zen martial art).
> I also practice yoga and live by the ocean - being barefoot is natural to me. MMA / UFC fighters also fight barefoot. I can't imagine training in shoes and after so many years, have adapted to practicing this way. For example - the bare foot will stick a bit to a varnished wooden floor, so I have learned over the years to lift my weight off a foot on which I am pivoting or turning, making it an integral part of how I move. I've recently become interested in baguazhang, which I always see performed in shoes. I'm a beginner to this art and am mainly doing circle walking with palm changes and of course, in bare feet. The sliding step in bagua takes a little more concentration in bare feet, but I am greatly enjoying the challenge! I am interested in your thoughts and experiences about practicing barefoot vs wearing shoes, especially in regard to the chinese martial arts.


It really doesn't matter if you are wearing shoes or not. As a beginner you most likely would be paying attention to your stepping, turning of the waist and spine, sinking and rooting, after doing it for a while it becomes very natural. When I first started circle walking I remember how odd the body position is and how unnatural circle walking felt but after doing it for 12 years it feels natural and I do not think of my feet


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2017)

I started in Jujutsu and TDK which was bear foot, but I have been wearing shoes training Chinese martial arts for over 20 years and all of that time has been in street clothes or sweats. I will admit when I started with my first shifu I expected to have to take my shoes off, but since he held the first class in the parking lot next to his school I was pretty happy we kept out shoes on. And when we moved inside, since he never had anyone remove thier shoes, I was pretty happy to keep them on there too.

And since I have trained in all sorts of weather on just about every terrain I have been rather happy wearing shoes. A year ago winter I was doing bagua circle walking in my garage and it was well below freezing out side so I am good with shoes, boots, sneakers, dress shoes, just about any foot wear. Use to train Police/military Sanda with my shifu at lunch during work and outside on concrete and even once during a thunderstorm.

Also, doing bagua circle walking, in sneakers, on a carpet, can take a lot of concentration too. My last Bagua Shifu school was carpeted.

I also do a little yoga, but that is in bare feet...just never in my garage in the winter .


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## DanT (Mar 27, 2017)

mograph said:


> Our group (old-school Hong Kong guys living in Toronto) practices in street clothes, ostensibly because Sifu is not into formality, possibly because he was taught that way, or because we're not an official club, or because the floors where we practice are not swept, or because we might as well learn to fight in the stuff we wear every day.
> 
> You know, I'll ask next week.


May I ask what club you attend?


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## DanT (Mar 27, 2017)

We wear feiyue kung fu shoes. When we do pad work we go barefoot tho. We also have a uniform that we always wear (black kung fu pants with white kung fu top).


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 27, 2017)

Ben S said:


> I've been practicing martial arts for 35 years, always barefoot -  this is common to the Japanese and Korean martial arts styles I've trained in - Uechi Ryu, Hayashi Ha - Shito Ryu and Shim Gum Do ( a zen martial art).
> I also practice yoga and live by the ocean - being barefoot is natural to me. MMA / UFC fighters also fight barefoot. I can't imagine training in shoes and after so many years, have adapted to practicing this way. For example - the bare foot will stick a bit to a varnished wooden floor, so I have learned over the years to lift my weight off a foot on which I am pivoting or turning, making it an integral part of how I move. I've recently become interested in baguazhang, which I always see performed in shoes. I'm a beginner to this art and am mainly doing circle walking with palm changes and of course, in bare feet. The sliding step in bagua takes a little more concentration in bare feet, but I am greatly enjoying the challenge! I am interested in your thoughts and experiences about practicing barefoot vs wearing shoes, especially in regard to the chinese martial arts.


You may grow to like it.  Shoes give you a grip that feet do not give and allow you to do things that would other wise tear the skin of the feet. Some Chinese Martial arts make a habit of dragging the feet on certain techniques, on other techniques there is heavy pivoting on the balls of the feet.  There are also scraping motions that are done with the feet on the ground.  For me personally I prefer having shoes on because I'm able to have quicker movement when cutting angles.  I also don't have rough or conditioned feet so while shoes aren't a must, it does offer some good protection for me.  To me it's almost like playing basketball without shoes.  I can do it, but don't expect me to do quick moves to fake out the guarding me.

The good news for you is that you may be able to wear shoes that help give you more of that barefoot feel.  I personally like training in wrestling shoes, since it feels like a thick sock to me.  I'm currently practicing in indoor soccer shoes and it's ok.  Depending on what the footwork is like in  Ba Gua Zhang, I wouldn't wear running shoes, as they are designed to move the foot heel -> toe and lack stability for any other type lateral movement.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 27, 2017)

Barefoot training is essential; because, it teaches you how to move like a human being, instead of a cyborg, with ankle and heel protection. It all starts, right here!


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## Danny T (Mar 27, 2017)

I practice bare footed, wrestling shoes, cross trainers, shoes, boots, and sandals.
On the matted floor either bare footed or wrestling shoes. On the wooden floor cross trainers and at times we will wear different footwear like dress shoes, boots, or sandals. Outside training area I usually wear cross trainers or sandals. (I wear sandals most of the year)


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## Tames D (Mar 27, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Barefoot training is essential; because, it teaches you how to move like a human being, instead of a cyborg, with ankle and heel protection. It all starts, right here!



Do you fight bare foot? Train like you fight? Fight like you train?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 27, 2017)

Tames D said:


> Do you fight bare foot? Train like you fight? Fight like you train?


You have to learn how to move, first.


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## Tames D (Mar 27, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> You have to learn how to move, first.


Really? Bare foot?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 27, 2017)

Tames D said:


> Really? Bare foot?


It teaches you to step to the ball of your foot, and not the heel. Our stride is too long. I don't know a better way.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 27, 2017)

Tames D said:


> Really? Bare foot?


In the event you own a jet, you can fly around, and bomb people, but until then, you are limited to human motion, and it's limitations. Boots teach you to move wrongly.


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## Tames D (Mar 27, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> In the event you own a jet, you can fly around, and bomb people, but until then, you are limited to human motion, and it's limitations. Boots teach you to move wrongly.


Ok, I think I follow you... You practice fighting barefoot, and when you get in a street fight you hope you can fight in boots. So, it's like you practice flying a Cessna, and hope you can fly a F-22 Raptor when the **** hits the fan.
I'm just messin with you ToD


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## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> You may grow to like it.  Shoes give you a grip that feet do not give and allow you to do things that would other wise tear the skin of the feet. Some Chinese Martial arts make a habit of dragging the feet on certain techniques, on other techniques there is heavy pivoting on the balls of the feet.  There are also scraping motions that are done with the feet on the ground.  For me personally I prefer having shoes on because I'm able to have quicker movement when cutting angles.  I also don't have rough or conditioned feet so while shoes aren't a must, it does offer some good protection for me.  To me it's almost like playing basketball without shoes.  I can do it, but don't expect me to do quick moves to fake out the guarding me.
> 
> The good news for you is that you may be able to wear shoes that help give you more of that barefoot feel.  I personally like training in wrestling shoes, since it feels like a thick sock to me.  I'm currently practicing in indoor soccer shoes and it's ok.  Depending on what the footwork is like in  Ba Gua Zhang, I wouldn't wear running shoes, as they are designed to move the foot heel -> toe and lack stability for any other type lateral movement.



Definitely some good points you make - I practice in my wife's yoga studio and it's a special floor - we don't wear shoes. But I've practiced Bagua in heavy socks which allow for sliding. I just love being barefoot - that sense of grip and being able to spread the foot. I practice on the beach in summer, but need footwear for outdoors - thanks for the reminder to try wrestling shoes.


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## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

oaktree said:


> It really doesn't matter if you are wearing shoes or not. As a beginner you most likely would be paying attention to your stepping, turning of the waist and spine, sinking and rooting, after doing it for a while it becomes very natural. When I first started circle walking I remember how odd the body position is and how unnatural circle walking felt but after doing it for 12 years it feels natural and I do not think of my feet



I look forward to having 12 years experience in circle walking! But I always think of my feet and what they're doing.


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## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

mograph said:


> Our group (old-school Hong Kong guys living in Toronto) practices in street clothes, ostensibly because Sifu is not into formality, possibly because he was taught that way, or because we're not an official club, or because the floors where we practice are not swept, or because we might as well learn to fight in the stuff we wear every day.
> 
> You know, I'll ask next week.



Sounds like you guys are real world martial artists - what style / art do you train?


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## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

Tames D said:


> Do you fight bare foot? Train like you fight? Fight like you train?



Well, that's the question isn't it? My fighting was and still is always confined to 'temple fighting' and other civilized exchanges, and yes it was barefoot. Obviously, if I were attacked in a dark alley, I'd probably be wearing shoes and so I see the sense in training in footwear and street clothes. But am 63 now and haven't been in a real fight since I was 15 - I think for many martial artists fighting is sparring - civilized, respectful and controlled - MMA fighters are engaged in real fighting for sure, and are barefoot. A Navy Seal or streetfighter wouldn't be - there's always that line between what we doing being an ART that we practice and its efficiency when things turn deadly serious.


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## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> I started in Jujutsu and TDK which was bear foot, but I have been wearing shoes training Chinese martial arts for over 20 years and all of that time has been in street clothes or sweats. I will admit when I started with my first shifu I expected to have to take my shoes off, but since he held the first class in the parking lot next to his school I was pretty happy we kept out shoes on. And when we moved inside, since he never had anyone remove thier shoes, I was pretty happy to keep them on there too.
> 
> And since I have trained in all sorts of weather on just about every terrain I have been rather happy wearing shoes. A year ago winter I was doing bagua circle walking in my garage and it was well below freezing out side so I am good with shoes, boots, sneakers, dress shoes, just about any foot wear. Use to train Police/military Sanda with my shifu at lunch during work and outside on concrete and even once during a thunderstorm.
> 
> ...



I practice in my wife's yoga studio and outside on the beach - but because of shoes you definitely have more options and versatility in your practice - I guess deep down, it's more about personal expression and feel than anything else.


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## mograph (Mar 28, 2017)

Ben S said:


> Sounds like you guys are real world martial artists - what style / art do you train?


Xingyi and Yiquan, mostly, with a bit of Chin Na. The group is a bit ad-hoc, like the classic "old-guy-in-his-garage" thing. Real-world? I'd say we're more about "foundation-foundation-foundation" in order to train reaction and unification of effort. We do a lot of Zhan Zhuang, and right now, I'm doing it with a group of TCM students and practitioners, so it has more of a qigong bent. The process is really slow, but I think that the implication is that the practice will stay with you no matter what moves you learn somewhere else.


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## mograph (Mar 28, 2017)

DanT said:


> May I ask what club you attend?


No club, just a guy: William Chau. He has taught at various locations (gyms, churches), and he only teaches either students of a TCM school, or people who are recommended by his senior students (that's me, sort of). Since he's pretty much retired, he kind of does what he wants. He has an entry in Liang Shou-yu's book under "Dachengchuan." Good guy, and the lineage holder from Jingwu for Mijongyi (or however it's spelled!).

About five years ago, at the church, we were standing (going for 45 minutes), and my wife felt a bit woozy, so she sat down. Sifu left the room, and about five minutes later came back with a box of crackers he had just bought down the street. He handed her some crackers and advised her to eat them. Kind fella.


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## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

mograph said:


> Xingyi and Yiquan, mostly, with a bit of Chin Na. The group is a bit ad-hoc, like the classic "old-guy-in-his-garage" thing. Real-world? I'd say we're more about "foundation-foundation-foundation" in order to train reaction and unification of effort. We do a lot of Zhan Zhuang, and right now, I'm doing it with a group of TCM students and practitioners, so it has more of a qigong bent. The process is really slow, but I think that the implication is that the practice will stay with you no matter what moves you learn somewhere else.



Sounds excellent - I recently discovered Zhan Zhuang and think it's one of the best kept secrets of all energy arts. People are visually-oriented and there's nothing gained in 'watching' someone in Wu Chi stance so they move on without ever trying it. But practice it yourself every day and it doesn't take long - it opens a vast world of understanding, especially in teaching grounding and moving the body calmly, as a complete and relaxed unit, through your martial art - a supreme benefit for me.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 28, 2017)

Ben S said:


> I practice in my wife's yoga studio and outside on the beach - but because of shoes you definitely have more options and versatility in your practice - I guess deep down, it's more about personal expression and feel than anything else.



It is whatever works for you and whatever your Shifu wants. My Taiji shifu is old school and we always wore shoes and whatever clothes we showed up in.


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## wingerjim (Mar 28, 2017)

Ben S said:


> I've been practicing martial arts for 35 years, always barefoot -  this is common to the Japanese and Korean martial arts styles I've trained in - Uechi Ryu, Hayashi Ha - Shito Ryu and Shim Gum Do ( a zen martial art).
> I also practice yoga and live by the ocean - being barefoot is natural to me. MMA / UFC fighters also fight barefoot. I can't imagine training in shoes and after so many years, have adapted to practicing this way. For example - the bare foot will stick a bit to a varnished wooden floor, so I have learned over the years to lift my weight off a foot on which I am pivoting or turning, making it an integral part of how I move. I've recently become interested in baguazhang, which I always see performed in shoes. I'm a beginner to this art and am mainly doing circle walking with palm changes and of course, in bare feet. The sliding step in bagua takes a little more concentration in bare feet, but I am greatly enjoying the challenge! I am interested in your thoughts and experiences about practicing barefoot vs wearing shoes, especially in regard to the chinese martial arts.


Since I am at the opposite end of the spectrum so to speak, having only studied Chinese MA, I cannot imagine practicing my art barefoot. Not sure there are any HUGE pro or cons either way. I like training with shoes especially living in Ohio if I have to use my art it will likely be with shoes on.


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## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> Since I am at the opposite end of the spectrum so to speak, having only studied Chinese MA, I cannot imagine practicing my art barefoot. Not sure there are any HUGE pro or cons either way. I like training with shoes especially living in Ohio if I have to use my art it will likely be with shoes on.



I understand - it's a non-issue with most people I think - for me, I suppose it comes from beginning martial arts that way with Japanese and Korean styles and from yoga too. I can't imagine practicing any other way and now that I'm interested in Chinese arts like Baguazhang and talking with some teachers, I make a point to ask if it's OK before taking a lesson - lol.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 28, 2017)

Danny T said:


> I practice bare footed, wrestling shoes, cross trainers, shoes, boots, and sandals.
> On the matted floor either bare footed or wrestling shoes. On the wooden floor cross trainers and at times we will wear different footwear like dress shoes, boots, or sandals. Outside training area I usually wear cross trainers or sandals. (I wear sandals most of the year)



*This is a good approach and well rounded*.  I find myself in dress shoes, boots, cross trainers, wrestling shoes, sandals and yes barefoot.  So training in all of the above is good in my opinion!   At home, in the pool, on the beach I am probably barefoot.  So training barefoot is important as well!  The rest of the time I will be in some kind of shoe or sandal.  So knowing how to move in everything I wear is essential as well! 

As to training in shoes I don't think you will have any problem!  It really is not hard.


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## oaktree (Mar 28, 2017)

Hey Ben what style of Baguazhang are you doing? Sounds like maybe gao or Cheng?


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## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Hey Ben what style of Baguazhang are you doing? Sounds like maybe gao or Cheng?



I can't pretend to be doing actual baguazhang, since I have no teacher. I hope to study with Tina Zhang in NYC this year, since her book has helped me get started - she practices Cheng style.


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## oaktree (Mar 28, 2017)

Ben S said:


> I can't pretend to be doing actual baguazhang, since I have no teacher. I hope to study with Tina Zhang in NYC this year, since her book has helped me get started - she practices Cheng style.


I started off with a teacher who only taught me circle walking then I met my teacher who taught me form and application. Circle walk around a tree practice 站桩 rotation comes from 丹田 and 命门。 the spine and 脏腑 are also moving. Baguazhang strengthens the 经络。


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## Flying Crane (Mar 28, 2017)

We do a lot of very deliberate pivoting, that actively grinds the foot into the ground for rooting.  If done barefoot, that will rip up your feet.  In our method, lifting the food to turn destroys your root.  I'm not in bagua, but there are reasons to not train in bare feet.


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## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> We do a lot of very deliberate pivoting, that actively grinds the foot into the ground for rooting.  If done barefoot, that will rip up your feet.  In our method, lifting the food to turn destroys your root.  I'm not in bagua, but there are reasons to not train in bare feet.



I am always pivoting and never rip my feet - but of course you're right - I AM lifting my foot each time I pivot, so there is a slight interruption in my grounding. I do a lot of Zhan Zhuang for that very reason - training in grounding. In my style, I try to move with a lot of flow, so the slight interruption in grounding is quick enough that it doesn't concern me -  I'll always train in bare feet.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 28, 2017)

Ben S said:


> I am always pivoting and never rip my feet - but of course you're right - I AM lifting my foot each time I pivot, so there is a slight interruption in my grounding. I do a lot of Zhan Zhuang for that very reason - training in grounding. In my style, I try to move with a lot of flow, so the slight interruption in grounding is quick enough that it doesn't concern me -  I'll always train in bare feet.


The reason we do it the way we do is because we are driving a rotation of the torso.  Any lifting of the feet will undermine that powerful rotation, which powers our technique.  It is very deliberate, and there is a right way to do it, and if you shortcut or alter it because of a shoeless preference, you will rob yourself of the benefits of the method.  Again, I don't do bagua so I am cannot comment on those methods.  But understand that there are genuine reasons to do things a certain way.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 28, 2017)

Ben S said:


> I look forward to having 12 years experience in circle walking! But I always think of my feet and what they're doing.


I pay attention to my feet as well.  I'm always telling students to be aware of how their feet make contact with the ground and how their weight shifts on their feet. I tell them this even when we are running during warm up.  I don't know if it sticks with them, but maybe one day they will understand the importance of it when they are sparring.


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## KabutoKouji (Mar 29, 2017)

I train in Feiyues and I have to say coming from barefoot TKD it did take me a while to get used to the grippiness (as in 'real life' obv you are likely to be wearing shoes). Having said that, Feiyues on grippy jigsaw rubber mats is unrealistically grippy I think.


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## Ben S (Mar 29, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I pay attention to my feet as well.  I'm always telling students to be aware of how their feet make contact with the ground and how their weight shifts on their feet. I tell them this even when we are running during warm up.  I don't know if it sticks with them, but maybe one day they will understand the importance of it when they are sparring.



Barefoot or shoes, I think attention to the feet is everything as a martial artist.


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## Ben S (Mar 29, 2017)

Flying Crane is certainly right about your style dictating whether or not you wear shoes. I love hearing from other martial artists and talking about this stuff. Maybe this is too esoteric, but there's also the energy connection to the floor or earth when you're barefoot. If you are trying to cultivate energy as an internal artist, this can be a factor. Jinho Lee (Key to Internal Arts) says that if I am barefoot and you are not, gravity will affect us equally and this is true. But say we're on wet ground and lightning strikes - I'm barefoot and KabutoKouji is wearing Feiyues, he will be safe and I will be electrocuted!
The point being that we are energy and there is some electrical connection to the floor or earth when you're barefoot, though I wouldn't claim to be able to harness it (yet - lol).


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 29, 2017)

Ben S said:


> Flying Crane is certainly right about your style dictating whether or not you wear shoes. I love hearing from other martial artists and talking about this stuff. Maybe this is too esoteric, but there's also the energy connection to the floor or earth when you're barefoot. If you are trying to cultivate energy as an internal artist, this can be a factor. Jinho Lee (Key to Internal Arts) says that if I am barefoot and you are not, gravity will affect us equally and this is true. But say we're on wet ground and lightning strikes - I'm barefoot and KabutoKouji is wearing Feiyues, he will be safe and I will be electrocuted!
> The point being that we are energy and there is some electrical connection to the floor or earth when you're barefoot, though I wouldn't claim to be able to harness it (yet - lol).



Yang Jwing Ming is a proponent of root training and that is done in shoes on the ground first, then on one set of bricks to get you off the ground to work on rooting through the bricks and eventually ending up on 2 or 3 sets of bricks to gain a better root. Rooting is important to CMA, and I have done this training. However one must be careful to not end up double rooted which would make moving more difficult. This of course can be done barefooted as well, but the goal is working on root by getting you off the ground so you can deepen your root.

Also bagua mud stepping, done outside, in concrete of regular earth can be rough on the feet without shoes, due to the step and the occasional pivot. However, again, you can do this barefooted, you just have to be very careful in the beginning until you build up enough calluses on your feet.


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## KabutoKouji (Mar 29, 2017)

emm I realise my post didn't make much sense - I was saying that I'm glad I got used to kicking in the shoes


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## KabutoKouji (Mar 29, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yang Jwing Ming is a proponent of root training and that is done in shoes on the ground first, then on one set of bricks to get you off the ground to work on rooting through the bricks and eventually ending up on 2 or 3 sets of bricks to gain a better root. Rooting is important to CMA, .



I have to say I'm very glad to be wearing shoes when we have to do that Crane stance that has you with the back foot laces down on the ground


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 29, 2017)

I'm equally comfortable training barefoot or with shoes. I've done plenty of both. I do think the time I've spent training barefoot has done a lot for the general good health of my feet, so I don't think I would want to give it up to train exclusively in shoes.


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## Ben S (Mar 29, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> Since I am at the opposite end of the spectrum so to speak, having only studied Chinese MA, I cannot imagine practicing my art barefoot. Not sure there are any HUGE pro or cons either way. I like training with shoes especially living in Ohio if I have to use my art it will likely be with shoes on.



wingerjim - But your avatar (picture) is barefoot - haha.


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## wingerjim (Mar 29, 2017)

Ben S said:


> wingerjim - But your avatar (picture) is barefoot - haha.


Funny, it also has a karate uniform and I do Wing Chun, no uniform or belt. lol


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## Flying Crane (Mar 29, 2017)

KabutoKouji said:


> I have to say I'm very glad to be wearing shoes when we have to do that Crane stance that has you with the back foot laces down on the ground


I don't know what stance this is?


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## KabutoKouji (Mar 30, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't know what stance this is?



I'll try and find it's proper name - it's a transitionary looking stance - similar to the stance at 'turn the body and circle the fist' in TaiJiJuan - except even more weight is on the front leg, and the back foot is supposed to have almost no weight on it, though it is touching the ground, laces down.


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## KabutoKouji (Mar 30, 2017)

actually no it's not really transitionary, it's just that I was incorrectly 'opening the gate' of the front foot too much while doing it because the drill was to come up from the stance into a front snap kick and then back down into it, so I left my front foot 'open'

it is pretty much like this stance:







except the back foot is more directly behind and not out to the side - the laces of the shoe of the back foot are facing downward to the ground


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## Ben S (Mar 30, 2017)

[QUOTE="KabutoKouji, post: 1826379 - weight is on the front leg, and the back foot is supposed to have almost no weight on it, though it is touching the ground, laces down.[/QUOTE]

KabutoKouji -  I've never learned tai chi, but read recently that something about one executing conscious unequal weighting in the stance (ex- 70% weight on the rear leg and 30% on the front leg) can develop internal energy. It's hard to confirm something something like that since you're the only one who feels it. I can definitely confirm leaving my practice with more energy than I started with - it happens all the time. Maybe it's more of a redistribution of the body's energy. Li Zi Ming's says - "When cultivated to the highest level of proficiency, circle walking serves to regulate physiological functions by balancing metabolism, improving the physical constitution and enhancing the overall health.".  Do you ever experience anything this from your tai chi practice?


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## Ben S (Mar 30, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> Funny, it also has a karate uniform and I do Wing Chun, no uniform or belt. lol



I wish I'd learned Wing Chun earlier on my martial arts path - I'm 63 now. Can you say anything about your practice - is it something you get a lot out of as a solo, or is it really brought to life when using it with a partner?


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## KabutoKouji (Mar 30, 2017)

Ben S said:


> [QUOTE="KabutoKouji, post: 1826379 - weight is on the front leg, and the back foot is supposed to have almost no weight on it, though it is touching the ground, laces down.



KabutoKouji -  I've never learned tai chi, but read recently that something about one executing conscious unequal weighting in the stance (ex- 70% weight on the rear leg and 30% on the front leg) can develop internal energy. It's hard to confirm something something like that since you're the only one who feels it. I can definitely confirm leaving my practice with more energy than I started with - it happens all the time. Maybe it's more of a redistribution of the body's energy. Li Zi Ming's says - "When cultivated to the highest level of proficiency, circle walking serves to regulate physiological functions by balancing metabolism, improving the physical constitution and enhancing the overall health.".  Do you ever experience anything this from your tai chi practice?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but certainly standing in very inbalanced stances does seem to energize and strengthen the legs a lot, when I finish 'Embrace Moon To Chest' for 6 minutes (which is pretty much 99% weight on back leg) I do feel very energised and in fact usually find doing pressups easier pretty much straight afterwards (even though paradoxically I have been holding my arms up in front of me in the same position for 6 minutes, so they should feel 'tired').


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## Ben S (Mar 30, 2017)

K - Sorry, I come from years of training in a zen martial art and we learned to pay attention to this stuff. Some people despise this kind of conversation. To answer you - yes - this is exactly what I meant. It's different for every martial art - something about the focused 'INTENTION' seems to bring energy to the whole body. In your example, you have to very much 'intend' to hold Embrace the Moon for that length of time. It makes sense that your muscles, tendons, fascia, etc. would be affected, but a sustained, strong mind focus on what the body is doing always seems to produce an energizing effect. Thanks for the reply.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 30, 2017)

Ben S said:


> K - Sorry, I come from years of training in a zen martial art and we learned to pay attention to this stuff. Some people despise this kind of conversation. To answer you - yes - this is exactly what I meant. It's different for every martial art - something about the focused 'INTENTION' seems to bring energy to the whole body. In your example, you have to very much 'intend' to hold Embrace the Moon for that length of time. It makes sense that your muscles, tendons, fascia, etc. would be affected, but a sustained, strong mind focus on what the body is doing always seems to produce an energizing effect. Thanks for the reply.



Look at Xingyiquan and Dachengquan (Yiquan)


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## wingerjim (Mar 30, 2017)

Ben S said:


> I wish I'd learned Wing Chun earlier on my martial arts path - I'm 63 now. Can you say anything about your practice - is it something you get a lot out of as a solo, or is it really brought to life when using it with a partner?


Sure Ben. I actually started almost 6 years ago at the age of 47. The empty hand forms (3 of them) and the dummy form can be learned from videos but let me qualify my statement of learn. Anyone can watch a video and somewhat mimic it and this is learning to copy those forms. What I believe must be taught by an instructor are the finer points that make it imitation to application. You also bring up a very valid point about contact. Yes WC is very much practiced with a training partner(s). My Sifu wants us to mix up with everyone on-site each class. This way we learn from more experience and less experienced. We learn from tall, short, wide, narrow, strong and weak. To me the essence of WC is in the reaction after years of tactile contact with a training partner, so I believe you can "learn" the forms but you can only "apply" them after being trained. Good luck Ben.


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## Ben S (Mar 30, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> Sure Ben. I actually started almost 6 years ago at the age of 47. The empty hand forms (3 of them) and the dummy form can be learned from videos but let me qualify my statement of learn. Anyone can watch a video and somewhat mimic it and this is learning to copy those forms. What I believe must be taught by an instructor are the finer points that make it imitation to application. You also bring up a very valid point about contact. Yes WC is very much practiced with a training partner(s). My Sifu wants us to mix up with everyone on-site each class. This way we learn from more experience and less experienced. We learn from tall, short, wide, narrow, strong and weak. To me the essence of WC is in the reaction after years of tactile contact with a training partner, so I believe you can "learn" the forms but you can only "apply" them after being trained. Good luck Ben.



Makes sense, especially regarding the instructor and partners. Maybe I'll 'get my feet wet' with a video and see if I can get a feel before trying a class. Thanks.


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## Ben S (Mar 30, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Look at Xingyiquan and Dachengquan (Yiquan)



Sounds like what I'm after - t's a 100 mile round trip to Boston for me and makes it hard to attend regular classes of any kind. But perhaps worth trying. Thanks.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 30, 2017)

Ben S said:


> Sounds like what I'm after -
> 
> 
> Sounds like what I'm after - I know it's a lousy excuse, but it's a 100 mile round trip to Boston for me and makes it hard to attend regular classes of any kind. But perhaps worth trying.



There use ti be a Yiquan/Dachengquan guy in Boston Chinatown who, and I am not making this up, taught in the back of a store in Chinatown. But I do not know if he is still around. As for Xingyiquan.

Xingyi Monday and Friday in Boston Chinatown with Zhou Xuan Yun from 6:30 to 8:00

These are old listings and you would need to call these folks

Leung Kay Chi
616 Cambridge Street
Cambridge, MA 02139
(617) 497-4459
www.Jiannshyongkungfu.com
Yin Style BaGua
XingYiQuan
Chen TaiJi
Yang TaiJi

Bow Sim Mark (Note: this is Donnie Yen's mother) 
246 Harrison Ave.
Boston, MA 02111
(617) 426-0958
HeBei XingYi
BaGuaZhang
TaiJiQuan

Adison Martin
47 Walk Hill Street
Boston, MA 02130
(617) 791-6009
Adison.G.R.Martin@gmail.com
www.adisonmartin.com
TaiJiQuan
BaGuaZhang
XingYiQuan
Qigong

There is also another guy in the Boston area who is also supposed to be real good, but his name escapes me at the moment, I will have to look him up.

Also this guy, but I know absolutely nothing about him Kenneth Burns


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## Ben S (Mar 31, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> Sure Ben. I actually started almost 6 years ago at the age of 47. The empty hand forms (3 of them) and the dummy form can be learned from videos but let me qualify my statement of learn. Anyone can watch a video and somewhat mimic it and this is learning to copy those forms. What I believe must be taught by an instructor are the finer points that make it imitation to application. You also bring up a very valid point about contact. Yes WC is very much practiced with a training partner(s). My Sifu wants us to mix up with everyone on-site each class. This way we learn from more experience and less experienced. We learn from tall, short, wide, narrow, strong and weak. To me the essence of WC is in the reaction after years of tactile contact with a training partner, so I believe you can "learn" the forms but you can only "apply" them after being trained. Good luck Ben.



wingerjim - You've sparked my interest in wing chun again. I've found a school in Portland ME (Portland Kung Fu) that seems well-liked and with a good lineage. It's 100 miles away, but I make the trip several times a year. I'm going to talk with them and get myself up there and try a lesson or two. Until I do, can you recommend a good video that I might use to get myself started? Something with forms and techniques presented clearly enough so that I could try and get a feel for the art before training with a real instructor? Thanks.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 31, 2017)

Ben S said:


> wingerjim - You've sparked my interest in wing chun again. I've found a school in Portland ME (Portland Kung Fu) that seems well-liked and with a good lineage. It's 100 miles away, but I make the trip several times a year. I'm going to talk with them and get myself up there and try a lesson or two. Until I do, can you recommend a good video that I might use to get myself started? Something with forms and techniques presented clearly enough so that I could try and get a feel for the art before training with a real instructor? Thanks.



Why are you always looking to places 100 or more mile away

Wing Chun in Boston approximatley 40 miles from Rockport

Wing Chun in Allston approximately 40 miles form Rockport

Martial arts reasesrch institute - Pin Sun Wing Chun- Kung fu- in Salem approximately 25 miles from Rockport


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## oaktree (Mar 31, 2017)

Would love to train with bow sim mark her wudang sword and fu Baguazhang is legendary.


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## Ben S (Mar 31, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Why are you always looking to places 100 or more mile away
> 
> Wing Chun in Boston approximatley 40 miles from Rockport
> 
> ...



Well, it's up to me isn't it? Quick answer - I spent many years living in Boston and don't resonate with that city. I appreciate your kind recommendations of teachers based around my location, but with all due respect, you are assuming that I would immediately accept ANY teacher you recommend as my superior - you really know nothing of my level of ability as a martial artist.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 31, 2017)

Ben S said:


> Well, it's up to me isn't it? Quick answer - I spent many years living in Boston and don't resonate with that city. I appreciate your kind recommendations of teachers based around my location, but with all due respect, you are assuming that I would immediately accept ANY teacher you recommend as my superior - you really know nothing of my level of ability as a martial artist.



Forgive me for trying to be helpful, I was not aware of your "superiority", forgive offense and my lowly uneducated mistake..... you have a nice day


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## KabutoKouji (Mar 31, 2017)

Ben S said:


> K - Sorry, I come from years of training in a zen martial art and we learned to pay attention to this stuff. Some people despise this kind of conversation. To answer you - yes - this is exactly what I meant. It's different for every martial art - something about the focused 'INTENTION' seems to bring energy to the whole body. In your example, you have to very much 'intend' to hold Embrace the Moon for that length of time. It makes sense that your muscles, tendons, fascia, etc. would be affected, but a sustained, strong mind focus on what the body is doing always seems to produce an energizing effect. Thanks for the reply.



yeah of still stuff I might practice, say mabu, Embrace Moon or the 'pushing through the ground' (palms held out just in front and trying to 'feel' the 'bubbling wells'), Embrace Moon To Chest seems to definitely give me the most of the feeling afterwards. I think if anything is a hard and stretched type of stance it can give this feeling if prolonged. I remember I was at a Ba Gua Zang class and we were made hold a 'twin forearm knifehand guarding block' (in TKD parlance, I'm not sure what it's called in Chinese) in a low Si Li Bu type position for about 5 minutes - but REALLY stretched forward, almost in that kindof blocking with staff upright position. Anyway after this I definitely 'felt it'.


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## Ben S (Apr 1, 2017)

Ben S said:


> wingerjim - You've sparked my interest in wing chun again. I've found a school in Portland ME (Portland Kung Fu) that seems well-liked and with a good lineage. It's 100 miles away, but I make the trip several times a year. I'm going to talk with them and get myself up there and try a lesson or two. Until I do, can you recommend a good video that I might use to get myself started? Something with forms and techniques presented clearly enough so that I could try and get a feel for the art before training with a real instructor? Thanks.



Wingerjim - thanks, but please disregard my request - I have found some good wing chun videos with which to get going. Have decided to permanently bail out on this forum - good luck with your wing chun training - all the best.


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## wingerjim (Apr 2, 2017)

Ben S said:


> wingerjim - You've sparked my interest in wing chun again. I've found a school in Portland ME (Portland Kung Fu) that seems well-liked and with a good lineage. It's 100 miles away, but I make the trip several times a year. I'm going to talk with them and get myself up there and try a lesson or two. Until I do, can you recommend a good video that I might use to get myself started? Something with forms and techniques presented clearly enough so that I could try and get a feel for the art before training with a real instructor? Thanks.


It would depend on the lineage, but here is a good example of Sil Lim Tau, the first Wing Chun Form and the basis of all Wing Chun


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> It would depend on the lineage, but here is a good example of Sil Lim Tau, the first Wing Chun Form and the basis of all Wing Chun



I think that is the version of Sil LIm Tao that my last Shifu taught me, same lineage anyway


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

Ben S said:


> I've been practicing martial arts for 35 years, always barefoot -  this is common to the Japanese and Korean martial arts styles I've trained in - Uechi Ryu, Hayashi Ha - Shito Ryu and Shim Gum Do ( a zen martial art).
> I also practice yoga and live by the ocean - being barefoot is natural to me. MMA / UFC fighters also fight barefoot. I can't imagine training in shoes and after so many years, have adapted to practicing this way. For example - the bare foot will stick a bit to a varnished wooden floor, so I have learned over the years to lift my weight off a foot on which I am pivoting or turning, making it an integral part of how I move. I've recently become interested in baguazhang, which I always see performed in shoes. I'm a beginner to this art and am mainly doing circle walking with palm changes and of course, in bare feet. The sliding step in bagua takes a little more concentration in bare feet, but I am greatly enjoying the challenge! I am interested in your thoughts and experiences about practicing barefoot vs wearing shoes, especially in regard to the chinese martial arts.


I can't speak to the CMA, though that doesn't keep me off this branch of MT. 

I teach a JMA, and we do normally train barefoot. Occasionally I have "street clothes" classes, and sometimes those include shoes (when I can work without mats - street shoes can be hell on them, and get them dirty). I personally train movement and strikes both with and without shoes. The dynamic differences are small, but are worth training. I make sure to practice in dress shoes some, so the leather soles don't cause me grief. I make sure to practice in grippy athletic shoes some, because those things don't slide as well as a foot on a mat (similar to your comment about how a bare foot grips hardwood).

If you are training for use outside the dojo/competition, it is important to at least occasionally put on clothes and footwear that are common for you, but different from the training uniform. Introduce that variation, and see what openings it provides, what it closes off, etc.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> In the event you own a jet, you can fly around, and bomb people, but until then, you are limited to human motion, and it's limitations. Boots teach you to move wrongly.


Shoes with heels may encourage a heel-first touch, but not all shoes will do so. It's certainly possible to teach proper movement even in shoes with a slight elevation from toe to heel, it's just harder to feel the difference.


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## geezer (Apr 3, 2017)

Well, I know a good Wing Chun school in Amesbury MA which is closer to Rockport ME than Boston, and it isn't a big city with that congested vibe, but_ I fear Ben has already left us_. I would have responded sooner but I had to work this weekend.

Now about shoes. I have seriously messed up feet and ankles do to a combination of a congenital problem and injuries. When I was a little, skinny, lightweight kid I used to love running around barefoot. Now at nearly 62 and heavier, I depend on good shoes and orthotics to get through the work-day standing on a hard floor. So frankly, I'm glad to be able to wear supportive shoes training.

I have attended grappling classes working barefoot, and it typically aggravates my conditions or sprains my arthritic toes! If allowed I prefer to at least use wrestling shoes. If required to go barefoot, I'd find a way to make it work. Maybe tape would help? Anyway, we all deal with pain, right? On the other hand, after my knee surgeries, if I were required to sit in _seiza_, I'd choose to leave and not return.


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## geezer (Apr 3, 2017)

Another observation regarding _footwork_ -- In the branch of Ip Man Wing Chun I train, we do a heavily back weighted "dragging-step" that would be tough to pull off barefoot. But my old Chinese sifu was so good at it that he would demonstrate it on the grippy old astro-turf balcony adjoining his hotel room in his bathrobe, sipping tea and wearing _flip-flops! _

_Yep, _he would stay in this seemingly impossible, fully back-weighted stance ...and glide effortlessly in any direction, never slipping out of those flip flops. The guy had skills. That's gotta rank up there with Quai Chang Cain walking on rice paper!


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

geezer said:


> Well, I know a good Wing Chun school in Amesbury MA which is closer to Rockport ME than Boston, and it isn't a big city with that congested vibe, but_ I fear Ben has already left us_. I would have responded sooner but I had to work this weekend.



Already tried that, see post 60 for the response


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## mograph (Apr 3, 2017)

mograph said:


> Our group (old-school Hong Kong guys living in Toronto) practices in street clothes, ostensibly because Sifu is not into formality, possibly because he was taught that way, or because we're not an official club, or because the floors where we practice are not swept, or because we might as well learn to fight in the stuff we wear every day.
> 
> You know, I'll ask next week.



According to one of our senior students who is also a TCM practitioner, we don't wear uniforms because there is no tradition to do so among those in Master Chau's culture, at least. It's not that they don't wear uniforms for X reason, it's that they don't have X reason to wear uniforms ... or to practice in bare feet, bow, that sort of thing. Also, they had no desire to promote a school with t-shirts. Nothing wrong with any of that, of course.

According to the same student (others may correct me), the _gi _came about because daily clothing was expensive (all hand-made, no off-the-rack) so practitioners did not want to get their clothes dirty or ruin them in a training scuffle. The gi was durable, and could be washed by bleaching. It seemed to make sense.

By the way, we train a mix of Qigong, Yiquan and Xingyiquan. If we were younger, we'd probably learn Mizongyiquan.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

mograph said:


> According to one of our senior students who is also a TCM practitioner, we don't wear uniforms because there is no tradition to do so among those in Master Chau's culture, at least. It's not that they don't wear uniforms for X reason, it's that they don't have X reason to wear uniforms ... or to practice in bare feet, bow, that sort of thing. Also, they had no desire to promote a school with t-shirts. Nothing wrong with any of that, of course.
> 
> According to the same student (others may correct me), the _gi _came about because daily clothing was expensive (all hand-made, no off-the-rack) so practitioners did not want to get their clothes dirty or ruin them in a training scuffle. The gi was durable, and could be washed by bleaching. It seemed to make sense.
> 
> By the way, we train a mix of Qigong, Yiquan and Xingyiquan. If we were younger, we'd probably learn Mizongyiquan.


That's the main reason I keep using a gi (though I've gone for black). I can buy one and wear it for years, or buy a lot of shirts. The gi is cheaper.

Oh and it looks cool, too.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

mograph said:


> According to one of our senior students who is also a TCM practitioner, we don't wear uniforms because there is no tradition to do so among those in Master Chau's culture, at least. It's not that they don't wear uniforms for X reason, it's that they don't have X reason to wear uniforms ... or to practice in bare feet, bow, that sort of thing. Also, they had no desire to promote a school with t-shirts. Nothing wrong with any of that, of course.
> 
> According to the same student (others may correct me), the _gi _came about because daily clothing was expensive (all hand-made, no off-the-rack) so practitioners did not want to get their clothes dirty or ruin them in a training scuffle. The gi was durable, and could be washed by bleaching. It seemed to make sense.
> 
> By the way, we train a mix of Qigong, Yiquan and Xingyiquan. If we were younger, we'd probably learn Mizongyiquan.



That is pretty much it for most Traditional Chinese martial arts, there is no tradition to wear uniforms and they always wear shoes.

My understanding about the shoes bit is a lot of the training in China is not in a brick and mortar school, it is outside or behind walls (no roof)


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## mograph (Apr 3, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> My understanding about the shoes bit is a lot of the training in China is not in a brick and mortar school, it is outside or behind walls (no roof)


Yeah. I don't think polished floors were a thing. Would be nice, though.


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## mograph (Apr 3, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Boots teach you to move wrongly.


Well, maybe some of us.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

mograph said:


> Yeah. I don't think polished floors were a thing. Would be nice, though.



You got me thinking, I think of all the places I trained CMA in the last 20 years only 1 had a polished floor and that was YMAA in Boston. Old unpolished floors, carpet, concrete, dirt, grass, parking lots and even a couple times on floors with mats down, but only a couple times on a polished floor.


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