# Wing Chun and Chi Kung



## Yoshiyahu

What do you guys think about Wing Chun and Chi Kung. My Sifu taught me various Chi Kung exercises along with the Wing Chun. Also Sum Nung Wing Chun has a Chi Kung form that goes along with the Wing Chun. Not all Lineages have Chi Kung in their wing chun. I was woundering what you thought. Is Chi Kung useful in Wing Chun at all. I know in the three forms there are areas of Chi Kung like praying three times on each hand or (Fok Sau-Wu Sau) Three times on each hand.

So please share your opinions on Chi Kung:

Some say its totally useless and doesn't increase skill or aid in pursuit of fighting?

Others say it increase strenght and power an allows your skill to advance at quicker rate?

What do you think?


----------



## mook jong man

When you say chi kung do you mean iron shirt and that sort of thing , i think as a supplement to your training it would be okay to do . 
Just as long as it was only a small part and did not take up a lot of time that would be better spent practicing your Wing Chun forms , doing chi sau , sparring and power training on the pads etc .


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Well actually I wasn't pertaining to Iron Shirt in this thread. There is both Soft Chi Gung and Hard Chi Gung. I was really talking about Kidney Breathing. But Iron Body or Iron Thread or Iron wire is good subject.But thats another topic I might address later. What I mean was Chi Kung for Chi Cultivation in addition to Chi Cultivation you receive from doing Sil Lim Tao and the other two forms.You also cultivate Chi from sitting YGKYM for specific duration with your arms by your breast. There are other reasons besides Chi Cultivation to do these Chi Kung Exercises but I don't want to give too much of what my Sifu has taught me about the subject. I want to hear how others feel about it. Some Wing Chun Lineages have Chi Kung Forms to go along with Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Jee.

*Info on a Lineage that does Chi Kung Exercises:*

S_an hei gwai yuen_(_shen qi gui yuan_, kidney breathing returns to source)

The exercises consist of a sequence of _hei gung_- (_qigong_, breathing work) like movements. They are typically practiced both before and after training to reenergize and revitalize the body, and to make sure healing prefaces and follows martial activity. The kidney breathing sets include exercises like yielding breath, side-to-side waist, single hoof, expanding chest, and dropping power, among others. 

Here is Link to some extra Info:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie04_qigong.html










*Other Links:*


http://www.mainewingchunkungfu.com/article11.htm


http://www.everythingwingchun.com/Eddie-Chong-Chi-Kung-p/ec07.htm

Please share more info on what you think?




mook jong man said:


> When you say chi kung do you mean iron shirt and that sort of thing , i think as a supplement to your training it would be okay to do .
> Just as long as it was only a small part and did not take up a lot of time that would be better spent practicing your Wing Chun forms , doing chi sau , sparring and power training on the pads etc .


----------



## Si-Je

I think it's important to every technique in WC/WT.  You need it and use it (even though folks don't always realize it) to deflect and generate power in WC/WT.  
I love that stuff, and am dying to learn more!
You totally need it to enhance your sensitivity, chi sau, reflex and response time, etc.
Plus, chi's very handy in escaping holds of any kind, and defense against a more powerful opponent.  It's what tips the scales, and breaks the rules of normal concepts of the limitations of self-defense.

Plus, it's nice to be able to learn to defend oneself without having to all out harm the person too.  The best way to do that is to utilize chi.
But that takes a looooooong time training.  And is in the forms of WC/WT just as much as the "scientific" techniques of WC.
It brings the "Art" back to Martial arts, (now that everyone seems to love the martial science mentality of fighting)
And I think it's a great way to keep people from using WC for "evil".  When you return to the "source" on a regular basis, you recharge yourself, and balance yourself, enabling one to convert negative energies (i.e. anger, hate, fear, etc.) into positive energies.  leaving you with a student that will most likely make the better choices when faced with true conflict.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Well Wing Chun is art for war and street fighting. The Chi back in Wing Chun will help you with this goal.

Uses for Wing Chun:

1.Someone wants to fight you in a club because they hate how you look?

2.Someone challenges you to a fight because they think their better?

3.Someone wants to beat up your spouse?

4.Someone trying to robb you or mug you?

5.Someone trying to make a name for themselves in gang by beating on a random person?

6.The Government becomes to corrupt an the people have to revolt?

7.Your in a bar or public place a fight breaks out an you have to fight your way out?

Wing Chun was not designed for peace. It design to kill and fight with. Those who designed did it with the mind set to kill and destroy those who were trying to kill them. If you use Wing Chun to attack those who are attacking you. Then you have did the right thing. Wing Chun is an aggressive art created to be cruel. Wing Chun is like fighting a man who has switch blade but you have a Seven Ring Broadsword or Dao. This is Wing Chun Vicious and Unrelenting!!!

Look at some of the Early Grandmasters like Cheung Bo, Sum Nung,Wong Shun Leung and Yip Man. They went out challenging people to fight. They were peaceful but they were also fighters. They sought to fight people an defeat people.


Wing Chun is for Fighters and street fighters. 

Destroy your enemies break down their defenses an leave no prisoners!


----------



## Si-Je

True.
But, with great power comes great responsibility.
I took MA to give myself every other option available before killing.

Like the tao says: (and I para-phrase)
it is better to be hurt than to hurt,
it is better to hurt than to be maimed,
it is better to maim than to kill.
it is better to kill than to be killed.

a body can be at rest and be violent,
a body can be at violence and one can still be at peace.

Besides, my mouth usually gets me in all the trouble my a** can handle! lol! somtimes more.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I totally Agree with you . My Wing Chun taught me was about being relentless and cruel. But this is for street fighting. Now a friendly chi sau or light sparring we do not hurt one another. But on the street. We attack eyeballs,nuts,knees,elbows and joints to break, the neck and head, break the nose, split the lip. hard knocks and steady blows. Kick fire from their body. Make your kicks go into their spleen or kidney.


 Common Wing Chun sayings are Collasp their structure. Be ferocious when clashing. Be fast with your fist.Be forceful when applying power. Do not collide with a strong opponent; with a weak opponent use a direct frontal assault. Iron fingers can strike a vital point at once. The Biu Jee hand contains emergency techniques. The stepping in elbow strike has sufficient threatening power. The phoenix eye punch has no compassion. In a match do not expect any compassion. Grasping the throat is a ruthless technique. Once commenced, it cannot be stopped. Do not collide with a strong arm bridge. Get out of the way and take initiative to attack. Do not follow, force, or butt against the opponent's hands. If the opponent grasps your arm bridge, do not oppose him with brute force. Go with the opponent's force and change into rolling hands. Turn around the situation to control him. 

*I also like the proverb*; There is a time to heal and time kill. A time for peace and a time for war! Written in the Tanakh

*This is a good saying below:*
it is better to hurt than to be maimed,
it is better to maim than to kill.
it is better to kill than to be killed.




Si-Je said:


> True.
> But, with great power comes great responsibility.
> I took MA to give myself every other option available before killing.
> 
> Like the tao says: (and I para-phrase)
> it is better to be hurt than to hurt,
> it is better to hurt than to be maimed,
> it is better to maim than to kill.
> it is better to kill than to be killed.
> 
> a body can be at rest and be violent,
> a body can be at violence and one can still be at peace.
> 
> Besides, my mouth usually gets me in all the trouble my a** can handle! lol! somtimes more.


----------



## mook jong man

The problem is we live in the modern world , not 18th century China and if you go beyond the boundaries of what would be considered self defence there will be legal ramifications and you better make sure you got plenty of money for a good lawyer .

 I know what it's like in my own country if somebody defends themself using martial arts , even if you only did three lessons of Wing Chun 20 years ago you will be considered by the court to be some sort of KUNG FU EXPERT its BS because we all know how much time ,sweat and blood needs to be devoted to become even average in Wing Chun .

 So if you are caught up in a situation and the cops arrive on the scene don't go blabbing to them that you've done Wing Chun for X amount of years , just say the bloke came at me , I was scared so I put up my hand to stop him . By all means cooperate with them , but don't tell them more than they need to know .

 Also don't do that thing that they always seem do in bad movies where they say " Don't come any closer I must warn you I have blackbelt in ( insert generic art here ) and I will use it . 

You've just announced to any witnesses that you have martial training and the attacker will now be a little bit more wary about how he attacks you , oh he will still attack you he will just be a bit more careful about it . 

You would have been better off him being nice and relaxed , thinking you were easy meat it will make your job a lot easier . I urge all Wing Chun / Wing Tsun people to practice scenario type drills , pre fight confrontation , the use of the fence and too read some of Geoff Thompsons books .


----------



## Si-Je

"Who me?  I'm just a little ol' gal! I could NEVA harm such a big strong man like that!"
Has always been my statement! lol!

I never advertise my skill to an a**hole that's mouthing off trying to get me riled up, hurt, insult or run off with me.

I once had a guy at the bar while I was picking up last call brace his legs on both sides of me trapping my back up against the bar.  He was sitting on a stool and I was smokin' a cig.  
"He said, your so cute, how about I just take you out to my car and run off with you?  I'm just going to have to kidnap you." blah, blah, blah, and alot of more grotesque suggestive vernacular......"

He got up and put a hand on my arm.  I took my cig and stepped into him putting it centimeters from his eyeball.  Smiling I said, "how about I put my cig out in your eye right here and save us both the time and trouble?"
He got really winny and left.  "Would you really do that?  Oh, God!"  
Bouncers oblivious as usual.
Do your business as quiet as possible, and then leave the scene.

Besides, here at home the law gives you full range to defend yourself even to the death.  At home, at work, at your car.  (doesn't cover clubs/malls/bars/concerts/etc. hense the need for discresion 
Yet if you have witness that you were attacked, then the statement you make is, "I was afraid for my life or (my spouse, kid, friend, or stranger)."  And your largely covered.  (don't make me look the law up again, please)


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Well, What I mean is places where you fight idoits where no one talks and no one tells. Like the Projects. or clubs on east side. etc. The only thing you have to worry about is if you shoot someone. But if you fight an kill or injure them badly an leave the scene No body is going to talk. But of course a gun has bullets. An bullets can be traced. 

But hand imprints on a person's chest do not leave finger prints the cops can use. I mean i guess the person who tried to rob can try an give a description. But I mean if your in an alley or on street or in field. Its night time an he has no idea what your name is. Just he got beat down by some guy who fits the description of him an about dozen other people on the street at any given moment.

But for me there is no record I ever took Gung Fu. I speciafically had no certificates filed. I also received personal private training. The person that trained in Wing Chun also had similiar run with the law. He put seven guys in hospitial who attempted to jump him. My sifu put a hurting on those guys. Of course he is like five foot seven and the guys were way bigger than him. So it got laugh out of court...ha ha. My Sifu told me all of this and explained how to advoid jail and the police. I never say I know gung fu. If someone says how did you manage to block their blows. I say fear. If they asked about specific details I just say watching movies. Using my imaganition. I got a cousin who shot four guys dead. He was in the service. Marine i believe. These four guys tried to mug him. He claimed self defense. I also got two friends who are cops as well as a cousin who is a cop. So I know all about self defense pleas. Since I am smaller guy in build and stature. I don't think someone claiming that i beat them with karate is going to hold up in court since I never took karate.



mook jong man said:


> The problem is we live in the modern world , not 18th century China and if you go beyond the boundaries of what would be considered self defence there will be legal ramifications and you better make sure you got plenty of money for a good lawyer .
> 
> I know what it's like in my own country if somebody defends themself using martial arts , even if you only did three lessons of Wing Chun 20 years ago you will be considered by the court to be some sort of KUNG FU EXPERT its BS because we all know how much time ,sweat and blood needs to be devoted to become even average in Wing Chun .
> 
> So if you are caught up in a situation and the cops arrive on the scene don't go blabbing to them that you've done Wing Chun for X amount of years , just say the bloke came at me , I was scared so I put up my hand to stop him . By all means cooperate with them , but don't tell them more than they need to know .
> 
> Also don't do that thing that they always seem do in bad movies where they say " Don't come any closer I must warn you I have blackbelt in ( insert generic art here ) and I will use it .
> 
> You've just announced to any witnesses that you have martial training and the attacker will now be a little bit more wary about how he attacks you , oh he will still attack you he will just be a bit more careful about it .
> 
> You would have been better off him being nice and relaxed , thinking you were easy meat it will make your job a lot easier . I urge all Wing Chun / Wing Tsun people to practice scenario type drills , pre fight confrontation , the use of the fence and too read some of Geoff Thompsons books .


----------



## mook jong man

I'm just saying be careful and show restraint especially in places like shopping centers where there is bound to be closed circuit TV cameras , those bastards are every where at least that is the case in my country . Big brother is watching.

PS SI-JE please don't get that that Texas law thing out again , reading that was like having to read a friggin telephone book it was so long lol.
As I said at the time they do everything bigger in Texas


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Yea in my state in America. Alot of people especially muggers think they can box or fight. Alot of them have rap sheets of assualt, Assualt with deadly weapon, Assualt and battery etc. But nah not the malls. Usually crimes against people don't go down there. i mean the streets where fights usually happen. 



mook jong man said:


> I'm just saying be careful and show restraint especially in places like shopping centers where there is bound to be closed circuit TV cameras , those bastards are every where at least that is the case in my country . Big brother is watching.
> 
> PS SI-JE please don't get that that Texas law thing out again , reading that was like having to read a friggin telephone book it was so long lol.
> As I said at the time they do everything bigger in Texas


----------



## Si-Je

Out here things are really spread out, and if your walking, then your a mark.
We're walking.
Places where people are more likely to have money, is where the mugging's, and break in's, seem to be happening lately.  (Like the local rich mall with Nordstroms and such) This mall has been hit frequently in the past couple of months, and getting worse.  People in poor neighborhoods know that folks are all broke where they live, that's why you go to the "hoity, toity" places to rob. 
As for the ghetto, better watch out, they do talk alot in the ghetto.  To eachother.  Don't kill someone's "cousin", they tend to get ya back.  But, not much chance of the cops being called.
Anyhoo, talking and communication usually does the deed.  And if not, we should all be covered.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Yoshiyahu said:


> What do you guys think about Wing Chun and Chi Kung. My Sifu taught me various Chi Kung exercises along with the Wing Chun. Also Sum Nung Wing Chun has a Chi Kung form that goes along with the Wing Chun. Not all Lineages have Chi Kung in their wing chun. I was woundering what you thought. Is Chi Kung useful in Wing Chun at all. I know in the three forms there are areas of Chi Kung like praying three times on each hand or (Fok Sau-Wu Sau) Three times on each hand.
> 
> So please share your opinions on Chi Kung:
> 
> Some say its totally useless and doesn't increase skill or aid in pursuit of fighting?
> 
> Others say it increase strenght and power an allows your skill to advance at quicker rate?
> 
> What do you think?


 
Just about every style of CMA has some sort of Qigong (neigong and/or waigong) in it. Even police/Military sanda that denies it has qigong.

The Wing Chun I learned (ok the little bit of Wing chun I learned) appears to have it incorporated in to Sil Lim Tao


----------



## Yoshiyahu

If you study closes. All the forms have Chi Kung. 

I have done extensive research on On Wing Chun and Chi Kung. Actually practicing any drills or forms really slowly in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma is doing Chi Gung. Goat Clamping Stance is actually a Chi Kung stance. I saw a video somewhere of people doing Chi Kung using YGKYM. An No they weren't doing Wing Chun. Back on point *Xue Sheng *way to go. I love it. How you re-address the main purpose of the thread. I too have gotten off track. Thanks for putting things Back into perspective for me. 

Excellent Post by the Way Xue Sheng about Chi Kung Denial. Many people seem to doubt the imporantance. A good way to work Chi Kung in your practice is to do a little before practice and after practice. Like some sports or fitness people do warm ups before practice and after practice they do cooling down exercises. Chi Kung can be done as warm up before actual practice and after practice as way to level your chi or cool you down from the intensity of Wing Chun practice. I don't know about all lineages. But my lineage practice is pretty intense. Even practicing basic punches and blocks the right way you feel hardening in your arms and fist and palms. Your body starts to harden as well. So a little Chi Kung helps to ease the fighting aptitude after practice.


----------



## Si-Je

Hubbie makes me practice Si Lim Tao uber, sloooowly.  I've gotten to where I can start to feel in in my hands/palms, and tummy when I do it slow now.  Pretty cool.  
Did some ki stuff in Tang Soo Do as a kid, and alot of meditation.  It was fun to play with the "rubber" feeling between your two palms after breathing.

I'm trying to keep my foreward "chi" force going into hubbie when doing chi sau.  For some reason I get scattered and it pretty consistantly shoots off the the left.  (why, the left?  don't know!)  Probably need to work on pivoting more when his pressure gets too great, I still tend to "fight" it too much sometimes.

Had a great book by Mantak Chia about Chi, must re-aquire that guys stuff and continue the "inner smile" excersises.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Great inspirational account on Chi. I love it. What are some posisitive benefits of Chi Cultivation through Chi Kung.

Have you ever practice doing a front punch or rotating front punch really slowly?

What about a front kick really slowly?




Si-Je said:


> Hubbie makes me practice Si Lim Tao uber, sloooowly. I've gotten to where I can start to feel in in my hands/palms, and tummy when I do it slow now. Pretty cool.
> Did some ki stuff in Tang Soo Do as a kid, and alot of meditation. It was fun to play with the "rubber" feeling between your two palms after breathing.
> 
> I'm trying to keep my foreward "chi" force going into hubbie when doing chi sau. For some reason I get scattered and it pretty consistantly shoots off the the left. (why, the left? don't know!) Probably need to work on pivoting more when his pressure gets too great, I still tend to "fight" it too much sometimes.
> 
> Had a great book by Mantak Chia about Chi, must re-aquire that guys stuff and continue the "inner smile" excersises.


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> Great inspirational account on Chi. I love it. What are some posisitive benefits of Chi Cultivation through Chi Kung.
> 
> Have you ever practice doing a front punch or rotating front punch really slowly?
> 
> What about a front kick really slowly?


 
Health, internal (emotional) balance, focus, centering of self are some more obvious benefits.  
I met this Chi master in Arlington a couple of years ago, miss him alot.  He could heal you from across the room, without getting out of his chair.  (wouldn't have believed it if he didn't do it on me)  But, when your 98 years old and been doing it forever I guess it's not so amazing.
He taught me some stuff, unofficially.  I'd just come to the martial art shoppe he hung out in all day and chitty chat with him.
He wanted me to learn chi "so no one could touch me", really he set me out on the basics so I could differentiate between what to study and what to avoid.  Too bad he passed away.

I've never punched or kicked really slowly as a drill before, could definately try it.  The punching a bit when I do Si Lim Tao slowly.  When I first started doing that form slow I kept sending my energy out through my hands and arms, hubbie told me to keep ahold of it until I could focus it more.  (I tend to spread it out too much, have alot of it.)  I've done that in Chi Sau and frustrated both him and my other teacher(he's WT, Savate, and Zipota guy) and had to chill on that for awhile.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I am curios...98 years old. I know he discovered alot of hidden secrets just from all his years of practicing. I am still discovering new ways to apply the basics everytime I practice. So I can imagine his knowledge an skill were phenomnal...What did he sahre with your privately...please share?




Si-Je said:


> Health, internal (emotional) balance, focus, centering of self are some more obvious benefits.
> I met this Chi master in Arlington a couple of years ago, miss him alot. He could heal you from across the room, without getting out of his chair. (wouldn't have believed it if he didn't do it on me) But, when your 98 years old and been doing it forever I guess it's not so amazing.
> He taught me some stuff, unofficially. I'd just come to the martial art shoppe he hung out in all day and chitty chat with him.
> He wanted me to learn chi "so no one could touch me", really he set me out on the basics so I could differentiate between what to study and what to avoid. Too bad he passed away.
> 
> I've never punched or kicked really slowly as a drill before, could definately try it. The punching a bit when I do Si Lim Tao slowly. When I first started doing that form slow I kept sending my energy out through my hands and arms, hubbie told me to keep ahold of it until I could focus it more. (I tend to spread it out too much, have alot of it.) I've done that in Chi Sau and frustrated both him and my other teacher(he's WT, Savate, and Zipota guy) and had to chill on that for awhile.


----------



## Si-Je

Just mainly basic concepts.  He used "chi" in a western manner, and didn't call it chi.  To him it was so simple and natural and should be to everyone else.
He stressed focus of intention as the force behind healing and disabling an opponent with chi.

He showed me a couple of pressure points that I couldn't remember to save my life.  But, he showed me a trick to finding all pressure points, and acupressure points on the body.  --  You find one to start with, then put your thumb (or middle finger) on the spot, then from that spot turn the hand until the middle finger of the same hand lands on anywhere on the body.(with the thumb as a reference point)  With say the thumb is on a spot, the length of hand from thumb to middle finger will find another point.  
And you can "walk" your hand all over the body like this, from thumb on a point, to middle finger on another, then lift the thumb a bit keeping the middle finger on the pressure point as you turn the hand for the thumb to find another.
man, I don't know if I'm explaining it well online.  It's eaiser to show or talk about.  But it is a really easy way to find pressure, accupressure, neve points too without just straight up memorizing a chart.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Se-Je, What you said makes perfect sense. But There are some things you might have left out. I would have to see it to better understand it. I had trouble with understanding the distance. Is the distance your index finger and thumb width that you travel up the body. But I always remember that the pressure points I mostly need are on center line and big toe. Like for instance in the middle of chest, the Dan tien, the middle of the head, Below the nose on upper lip, The chin and underneath the eye on face. etc etc. Those are my pain pressure I rememorize.


----------



## Si-Je

The distance is between your middle finger and your thumb.  With the hand stretched out as far as it will go.
Say start at the pressure point at the hinge of the jaw, behind the ear.  (that's a good one, even muscular dudes feel that one.)  Put your middle finger on it till you feel pressure(or your partner is easier) then while keeping the middle finger there move the thumb to the front of the throat (should be at the indention of the esophogas (however you spell it) that's a common one, with the thumb.
Then let go of the point at the jaw with the middle finger keeping the thumb at the hollow of the throat and "swivil" the hand around the side of the neck to the shoulder (where the tip of the shoulder attaches to the arm) and push with middle finger.  Should be a point there.  Or to the side of the neck and upper shoulder where the neck attaches to the shoulder, should be one around there.  (There's a couple at the clavicle too.  That's one he showed me, brings you straight down to your knees, ouch!)

You can keep "swiviling" the hand like this all over the body from wherever you wish to start.  It's easier for me starting on the back of a person (good way to find where they're having tension and pain with a back massage.)

You can walk the hand up and down the body like this, from the feet/legs/ankles/ all the way up to the head.

-On a weird side note, (pun intended lol) it reminds me of a little "jazz improve" cheat my old saxaphone teacher taught us back in the day.  Stating that no matter what key any song is in and your jamin' doing your solo and play a wrong note, you only have to move a half-step up or down to be back in key (in tune) with the rest of the band.

Is the universe truely this simple?

It is easier to show, much like jazz improve.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Very interesting,....Thank you very much for that insight...
You taught me something today. Thats my first time ever hearing of that. I just try to remeber charts. But thats pretty cool.






Si-Je said:


> The distance is between your middle finger and your thumb. With the hand stretched out as far as it will go.
> Say start at the pressure point at the hinge of the jaw, behind the ear. (that's a good one, even muscular dudes feel that one.) Put your middle finger on it till you feel pressure(or your partner is easier) then while keeping the middle finger there move the thumb to the front of the throat (should be at the indention of the esophogas (however you spell it) that's a common one, with the thumb.
> Then let go of the point at the jaw with the middle finger keeping the thumb at the hollow of the throat and "swivil" the hand around the side of the neck to the shoulder (where the tip of the shoulder attaches to the arm) and push with middle finger. Should be a point there. Or to the side of the neck and upper shoulder where the neck attaches to the shoulder, should be one around there. (There's a couple at the clavicle too. That's one he showed me, brings you straight down to your knees, ouch!)
> 
> You can keep "swiviling" the hand like this all over the body from wherever you wish to start. It's easier for me starting on the back of a person (good way to find where they're having tension and pain with a back massage.)
> 
> You can walk the hand up and down the body like this, from the feet/legs/ankles/ all the way up to the head.
> 
> -On a weird side note, (pun intended lol) it reminds me of a little "jazz improve" cheat my old saxaphone teacher taught us back in the day. Stating that no matter what key any song is in and your jamin' doing your solo and play a wrong note, you only have to move a half-step up or down to be back in key (in tune) with the rest of the band.
> 
> Is the universe truely this simple?
> 
> It is easier to show, much like jazz improve.


----------



## Si-Je

I was remembering a story that the old "Chi master" friend of mine told me once.
He was challenged (way back in his day) by some big time boxer for a little cash.  His friends really got him into that one (when he was much younger).
He told his cornerman/friend to push him out of his seat in the corner and shove him into the ring as hard as he could at the boxer.
When they did that, he knocked out the professional boxer with one hit.
It reminded me of the scene from "Prodigal Son" where the small teacher (with asmtha) stepped on his student's foot from behind him so he'd push him into the "challenger" in a fight.  He pretty much did the same thing.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Yea, I love watching the prodigal son on google video...its a great movie...




Si-Je said:


> I was remembering a story that the old "Chi master" friend of mine told me once.
> He was challenged (way back in his day) by some big time boxer for a little cash. His friends really got him into that one (when he was much younger).
> He told his cornerman/friend to push him out of his seat in the corner and shove him into the ring as hard as he could at the boxer.
> When they did that, he knocked out the professional boxer with one hit.
> It reminded me of the scene from "Prodigal Son" where the small teacher (with asmtha) stepped on his student's foot from behind him so he'd push him into the "challenger" in a fight. He pretty much did the same thing.


----------



## Si-Je

I love how they show the two different approaches to Wing Chun in that movie.  Pretty funny too.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

What are the two different approaches?




Si-Je said:


> I love how they show the two different approaches to Wing Chun in that movie. Pretty funny too.


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> What are the two different approaches?


 
The little guy moves and uses different techniques than the bigger chunky guy.
The larger teacher/brother came into the attack straight in.
While the small brother pivots more and works around the opponent.
Hubbie was really ingrained with the larger man's way until he had to teach me, and had to revert a bit more to the Fung System.
So, prodigal son learns BOTH.  (can there be a daughter? lol!)


----------



## Si-Je

Oh, Hubbie likes the "bathroom" form! lol!


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Oh Yea, Thats classical Wing Chun. My Sifu taught be both how to work around and how to take the center. We can attack from the gates. Or Gain entry to the center an let go the chain punches and elbow strikes to chin. Upward elbow strikes do wounders to bigger guy. Also Tok Sau modified with a punch can be a great weapon to someone above your head. 

Like an uppercut to the moon.



Si-Je said:


> The little guy moves and uses different techniques than the bigger chunky guy.
> The larger teacher/brother came into the attack straight in.
> While the small brother pivots more and works around the opponent.
> Hubbie was really ingrained with the larger man's way until he had to teach me, and had to revert a bit more to the Fung System.
> So, prodigal son learns BOTH. (can there be a daughter? lol!)


----------



## styxx16

hi there , can you please tell me were can i finda school for wing chun in the philippines, preferably manila areathanks very muchstyxx16


----------



## Si-Je

styxx16 said:


> hi there , can you please tell me were can i finda school for wing chun in the philippines, preferably manila areathanks very muchstyxx16


 
We just had a student that moved to the philippines.  He looked all over and couldn't find one.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

did he google it?


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> did he google it?


 

He may have, he is a Techie and opened a internet coffee shop out there.  He lived there about a year.  Told us he couldn't find one anywhere, and that he missed WC.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

There appears to be other message boards talking about same thing. I found message boards talking about Wing Chun schools in Manila and Cebu. But no one knows where there that at. One person said the WC Kwoon in Manila had closed down because of Gangsters.




Si-Je said:


> He may have, he is a Techie and opened a internet coffee shop out there. He lived there about a year. Told us he couldn't find one anywhere, and that he missed WC.


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> There appears to be other message boards talking about same thing. I found message boards talking about Wing Chun schools in Manila and Cebu. But no one knows where there that at. One person said the WC Kwoon in Manila had closed down because of Gangsters.


 
Yeah, we told him not to move there! lol!  Soon after he got there they had some rebel uprising or something, scared him to death.  He's a sweet, peaceful melow guy.  I told him to bring Wiskey and Marlboros if he was going to go, just in case.  Something to barter with. lol!  (Actually was Hubbie's idea


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Sad to hear that...wow...




Si-Je said:


> Yeah, we told him not to move there! lol! Soon after he got there they had some rebel uprising or something, scared him to death. He's a sweet, peaceful melow guy. I told him to bring Wiskey and Marlboros if he was going to go, just in case. Something to barter with. lol! (Actually was Hubbie's idea


----------



## Si-Je

No, he's okay.  Just got scared.  He's back in the states, just lost a student when he moved.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

How did he loose a student?




Si-Je said:


> No, he's okay. Just got scared. He's back in the states, just lost a student when he moved.


----------



## Si-Je

He flew away on a plane to the phillipines and married some lady he met online!  And never came back.  Married into some kids too.  poor SiHing, but I guess he's a happy broke guy now.  
Point being, all hubbie's advanced MALE students seem to all move to the phillipines and get married and never come back! lol!
Weird karma, that!  

Not leaving him many people for challenges, sparring, training, etc.  Just little old me.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Aww so sad. I remember when I had my old computer at my old house. An had the web came up an running. There was lady from the philiphines trying to get me fly her here to Amerikkka. She wanted to get married and become citizen. She was beautiful girl but I am not up on marring people over the net. Call me old fashion!




Si-Je said:


> He flew away on a plane to the phillipines and married some lady he met online! And never came back. Married into some kids too. poor SiHing, but I guess he's a happy broke guy now.
> Point being, all hubbie's advanced MALE students seem to all move to the phillipines and get married and never come back! lol!
> Weird karma, that!
> 
> Not leaving him many people for challenges, sparring, training, etc. Just little old me.


----------



## Si-Je

I used to be all punkrock, but old fashioned is where it's at!  Just saw on the news that the new "trend" in dating for teenagers is to "hook up" before dating.  To sample the chemistry before going on a date, or to a dance.  
backwards much?
Baby girl's getting home schooled!  Forget that noise!
Hubbie, has his own initiation all set up for that "courting" fellow too. lol! That's going to be entertaining..


----------



## Yoshiyahu

What does it mean to hook up before dating?


Also whats hubbie Drill Sargent Mystic Woof Initiation for young men???


Be careful males are natural hunters if you make the prey hard toget than daughter will have the best of the hunters gaming after her. An they will gladly endure hubbies boot camp to win the prize. Hard games are the most fun to play. Atleast one time anyway....




Si-Je said:


> I used to be all punkrock, but old fashioned is where it's at! Just saw on the news that the new "trend" in dating for teenagers is to "hook up" before dating. To sample the chemistry before going on a date, or to a dance.
> backwards much?
> Baby girl's getting home schooled! Forget that noise!
> Hubbie, has his own initiation all set up for that "courting" fellow too. lol! That's going to be entertaining..


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> What does it mean to hook up before dating?
> 
> 
> Also whats hubbie Drill Sargent Mystic Woof Initiation for young men???
> 
> 
> Be careful males are natural hunters if you make the prey hard toget than daughter will have the best of the hunters gaming after her. An they will gladly endure hubbies boot camp to win the prize. Hard games are the most fun to play. Atleast one time anyway....


 
"hook up" is to do "the nasty".
Hubbie's initiation is to straight up fight the crap out of them.  If they can't beat hubbie, then too bad so sad. lol!  Yeah, like THAT will work! 
After that, they have to get past mommy.  And I'm sneaker than to make a frontal assalt!


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Well When me my wife have children I will make sure my son knows Iron body. So he defeat Hubbie by tireing out his fist...




lol




Si-Je said:


> "hook up" is to do "the nasty".
> Hubbie's initiation is to straight up fight the crap out of them. If they can't beat hubbie, then too bad so sad. lol! Yeah, like THAT will work!
> After that, they have to get past mommy. And I'm sneaker than to make a frontal assalt!


----------



## Si-Je

haha!  I'll make sure my daughter knows chi force and disturbs your son's energy so he can't raise his arms. lol!
Chi wars!


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

I find the Kidney breathing exercise given in the link to be misleading.

Kidney breathing is an advance practice. Focusing on Ming-men point is used by the Wu-liu sect of Taoism for a very special reason.

Even as a moving form I do not see from the link possible benefits such as the movments found in Ba dua jin. However it does mention k1=Yongquan.

Maybe if I was taught this form I might be able to understand what they are speaking of in terms of Kidney breathing but I don't see anything based on the link.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

You lost me please post the qoute you are speaking of?




JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I find the Kidney breathing exercise given in the link to be misleading.
> 
> Kidney breathing is an advance practice. Focusing on Ming-men point is used by the Wu-liu sect of Taoism for a very special reason.
> 
> Even as a moving form I do not see from the link possible benefits such as the movments found in Ba dua jin. However it does mention k1=Yongquan.
> 
> Maybe if I was taught this form I might be able to understand what they are speaking of in terms of Kidney breathing but I don't see anything based on the link.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie04_qigong.html

I am saying from this link I do not see anything shown to benefit the Kidneys nor do I see anything speaking of Kidney breathing.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

My Sifu says that the Kidney breathing techniques not only strengthens the muscles and builds stronger power but it also cultivates the chi and replenishes the body. He also says he rises up aggressive Chi and builds up deadly striking power!






JadecloudAlchemist said:


> http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie04_qigong.html
> 
> I am saying from this link I do not see anything shown to benefit the Kidneys nor do I see anything speaking of Kidney breathing.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> My Sifu says that the Kidney breathing techniques not only strengthens the muscles and builds stronger power but it also cultivates the chi and replenishes the body. He also says he rises up aggressive Chi and builds up deadly striking power!


 
How does this technique shown in the link relate to the Kidneys?

I understand how Kidney breathing is done. In fact there are quite a different amount of methods that could be called Kidney breathing. 

I can clearly see if something is to be called Kidney breathing it must have some sort of realtionship or benefit of the Kidneys.

Example: Adominal breathing,Reverse Adominal breathing,Six healing sound,Six color mediation. Which just names a few that may consist of a type of Kidney breathing because it does have an effect on the Kidneys. 

This link shows a back stretch and an arm circling exercise.
 I suppose a back bend may benefit the Kidneys but it is misleading to say that it is Kidney breathing.

The Kidneys are related to the Bones and Marrow more than the muscles.
 But I guess in some form you can link them to the muscles.

It does not raise up "aggressive Qi" The Qi stored in the kidney area would be known as Water Qi.  Kan and Li is an important concept in Qigong as well as Sanbao without knowing these practicing Qigong is a waste of time.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Actually My Sifu doesn't actually call it Kidney Breathing. The link i shown is the closet thing I can find dealing with Chi Kung in wing chun to show that exist. An Chi Form that my Sifu is talking about has different breaths and different movements. 

But as for kidney breathing it still revitalizes the body. An yes the kidneys are said to be the root to all things that affect the body. If you have healthy kidneys your body will be healthy. 

As for bone marrow cleansing. I don't know all the theory and principles of it. I just do it. I just practice it under the guidance of my Sifu so I can become healthier and stronger. Over time you begin to really see the results.




JadecloudAlchemist said:


> How does this technique shown in the link relate to the Kidneys?
> 
> I understand how Kidney breathing is done. In fact there are quite a different amount of methods that could be called Kidney breathing.
> 
> I can clearly see if something is to be called Kidney breathing it must have some sort of realtionship or benefit of the Kidneys.
> 
> Example: Adominal breathing,Reverse Adominal breathing,Six healing sound,Six color mediation. Which just names a few that may consist of a type of Kidney breathing because it does have an effect on the Kidneys.
> 
> This link shows a back stretch and an arm circling exercise.
> I suppose a back bend may benefit the Kidneys but it is misleading to say that it is Kidney breathing.
> 
> The Kidneys are related to the Bones and Marrow more than the muscles.
> But I guess in some form you can link them to the muscles.
> 
> It does not raise up "aggressive Qi" The Qi stored in the kidney area would be known as Water Qi. Kan and Li is an important concept in Qigong as well as Sanbao without knowing these practicing Qigong is a waste of time.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> Actually My Sifu doesn't actually call it Kidney Breathing. The link i shown is the closet thing I can find dealing with Chi Kung in wing chun to show that exist. An Chi Form that my Sifu is talking about has different breaths and different movements.


 
Now I have a better understanding of what you are trying to say. 

 Kidney breathing is an advance set. I find alot of Qigong teachers teach things like it without having their students knowing how to relax,regulate the mind,and feel the area first.

I have seen different Marrow cleansing/washing exercises on the market.
 It also is an advance form because how difficult it is to sense the Marrow among other theories involved. If you know the theories and principles you will be able to understand Qigong better than someone who just does the exercises.


----------



## Si-Je

You could do meditation sitting straight backed in a chair with feet flat on the floor.
Draw white light type energy from the sky/heavens and draw it into the top of your head.  Flow it down through your body stopping to visualize each organ as it comes down.  Visualize each organ as heathy and bring light into it, imagine "black" negative energy from organ flowing out and being replaced by light.  Do this all through body until you get to the feet.  Send all "negative" or poisons of the body out through the feet into the ground/earth.  
This is a very groovy meditation.  Breathing steady and slow all the while.  It will make you feel vitialized right away.  Relaxed, calm, and light.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Okay Now i understand you ploy.I am not going to engage a debate over who has more head knowledge. AS for theories I lied when I said i don't study them. I wanted to pick your brain and understand your reasoning. Now I know. If you feel you have alot of knowledge and can really teach someone something then by all means share your knowledge of what you may know. But as for Kidney Breathing Returns chi to source. If you want principles and theory I can start a thread for that. I know it will be a boring thread just me an you talking about theories. But thats cool if you want to do that. Theories are great. But in the heat of the fight you may have adapt and break rules an disregard certain theories to for self preservation. As for the Link its proof that Wing Chun also practices Chi Kung or Hei Gung. What ever you wanna call it..

_Sun hei gwai yuen_ means Kidney breating returns Chi to the source.

The word Sun means Kidneys
Hei means Chi
Gwai yuen means returning to the source

Return to source means to revitalize invigorate or rejuvenate.
As for reverse breathe and natural breathe etc etc. We can debate that all day long. With no real outcome. 

In short Wing Chun has Wing Chun Sets?

Do you agree?

As for the kidneys please share why it is so important to maintain Kidney health? Also please share how it connects with the Libido? 


Please share the Martial Benefits of Kidney Breathing?





JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Now I have a better understanding of what you are trying to say.
> 
> Kidney breathing is an advance set. I find alot of Qigong teachers teach things like it without having their students knowing how to relax,regulate the mind,and feel the area first.
> 
> I have seen different Marrow cleansing/washing exercises on the market.
> It also is an advance form because how difficult it is to sense the Marrow among other theories involved. If you know the theories and principles you will be able to understand Qigong better than someone who just does the exercises.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> Okay Now i understand you ploy.I am not going to engage a debate over who has more head knowledge.


 
I never was trying to engage in a debate. I was trying to have a better understanding of what you were saying by the link.

You then spoke about what your teacher said about "Aggressive Qi"

Which I do not find to be true.

You then go on speaking about Kidney breathing and Marrow cleansing which would be considered at least by my standards advance forms.




> AS for theories I lied when I said i don't study them. I wanted to pick your brain and understand your reasoning. Now I know. If you feel you have alot of knowledge and can really teach someone something then by all means share your knowledge of what you may know.


 
One of the main reasons why I try to hold back from discussing Qigong online and even when teaching in person.



> If you want principles and theory I can start a thread for that. I know it will be a boring thread just me an you talking about theories. But thats cool if you want to do that. Theories are great. But in the heat of the fight you may have adapt and break rules an disregard certain theories to for self preservation.


 Do what you want I will comment on things I find to be truthful or practical. Theories are there for a reason. In Qigong if you do not know proper theory you are wasting your time in your cultivation. All the Sects though they may differ on methods they do agree on certain theories and do achieve higher levels you need to know Qigong theory.



> As for the kidneys please share why it is so important to maintain Kidney health? Also please share how it connects with the Libido?


 
You can look thru my past post I wrote a small article on Jing.



> Please share the Martial Benefits of Kidney Breathing?


 
Why should I share information with someone who:


> AS for theories I lied when I said


And who in another thread spoke ill-will towards my screen name?


----------



## Si-Je

I see now why Chi guy didn't want me to put to much stock in reading the books on this stuff.
Arguing about doing the same thing just maybe in different ways.  Getting hung up on schematics, technical lingo.  

"the doer alone learns." -Lao Tzu
"It's easy, you just do it.  Here...."- Chi guy


----------



## Yoshiyahu

So Sorry for the offence. My friend there was pun intended with the alchemist joke. Sorry if it offended you. Back to Theory. This seems to be your interest right now. First off regardless if we share theory with people on the forum?

Will they be able to practice Chi Kung from my link or this thread?

No they will not be able to practice Chi Kung at all. My link is simply something that shares info that Chi Kung sets exist in Wing Chun. However it doesn't show you how to practice the forms. There are a few pictures true. But the postures and transitions are not there. The breath work is not shown there. The exact timing and rotation of the body contractions etc is not shown on there. Now it depends on your style lineage and many other things. 

But we can all agree you need a sifu in order to learn the Chi Kung. This is my humble Opinion...

Now for Chi Kung you should use it to 

Regulate the Body, the Mind and the Breath. You have natural breathing, reverse breathing,Counting breath and even holding breathing exercises that do different things. Yes it is true about sensing your Chi and learning how to direct it. But in regular stance work you should also learn this. You should be learning this when your punching. Holding Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma you are envision your Chi in your Dan Tien and learn how to send it through your body to your limbs. 

Now I really didn't disagree with what you said. Everything you said is valid. But It was my mistake, The way I took your statement was confrontational instead of informative. So forgive me for that. But my point is true. You need a Sifu to teach you the breath,the movements and the principles and how they are applied. With out it your totally lost. If you have principles from reading books which I have it doesn't matter. I had an book on Chi Kung atleast 3 years before I even started practicing Chi kung. I read the book but I didn't practice it until I had a qualified Sifu who could teach me. Now I have spoken with many people on theories and different knowledge. But my Chinese Sifu in Tai Chi is simplest. He says the key to success is practice. No matter how much theory you have it means nothing unless you practice it. Theory shows you how to use it. But what good is it to know how to use a gun if you don't have a gun? Its useless. First build the gun.

But I think we are missing each other points let me address what I agree with you on first.

Learn how to relax (This should be basic)
Even before I started learning the Chi Kung I learn how to relax. Just from doing the Quasi external parts of Wing Chun. I say so called External because all of Wing Chun is both Internal and External even though some may disagree. 

As for Regulating the mind Yes my Sifu told me earlier on When I started practicing Ma From and Sil Lim Tao that I should slow it down. Concentrate on each movement. Feel where the energy is coming from and feel where it is going. Focus on my technique so that intention and energy goes where I focus. etc etc.

As for feeling the area When you first start practing the Stance you are taught to feel the Chi rise. You are taught to feel the Chi in your Dan Tien. Even when you strecth and tell your legs to loosen up. You are projecting your YI (thought) through your legs. Your Yi is your mind. You are sending your Chi through your legs. Your legs relax and you can strecth  a little farther. The more you strecth the more Chi can travel through your limbs and your body. By doing various forms and also chi kung you open up meridens and eliminate stagnation. 


You disagree with Aggressive Chi. Well Wing Chun is an Aggressive Art. Their is passive Chi and Aggressive Chi. Aggressive Chi doesn't equal bad chi. There is difference. I do not mean negative Chi when I speak of Aggression. But you may have perceived that. But we can agree to disagree. 

Chi is energy

Kung is Work or skill acquired by practice.

When ever you do Chi Kung your are working or practicing your chi. You are acquiring skill with your Chi. Be it hard Chi Kung or Soft Chi Kung.
I can simply say it like this. Anything that raises your Testerone level will make a man and woman more aggressive. Doesn't mean violent. But just aggressive. There is always the increase potential in other words.


But please share your principles of Chi Kung?






JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I never was trying to engage in a debate. I was trying to have a better understanding of what you were saying by the link.
> 
> You then spoke about what your teacher said about "Aggressive Qi"
> 
> Which I do not find to be true.
> 
> You then go on speaking about Kidney breathing and Marrow cleansing which would be considered at least by my standards advance forms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the main reasons why I try to hold back from discussing Qigong online and even when teaching in person.
> 
> Do what you want I will comment on things I find to be truthful or practical. Theories are there for a reason. In Qigong if you do not know proper theory you are wasting your time in your cultivation. All the Sects though they may differ on methods they do agree on certain theories and do achieve higher levels you need to know Qigong theory.
> 
> 
> 
> You can look thru my past post I wrote a small article on Jing.
> 
> 
> 
> Why should I share information with someone who:
> 
> And who in another thread spoke ill-will towards my screen name?


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> No they will not be able to practice Chi Kung at all. My link is simply something that shares info that Chi Kung sets exist in Wing Chun. However it doesn't show you how to practice the forms. There are a few pictures true. But the postures and transitions are not there. The breath work is not shown there. The exact timing and rotation of the body contractions etc is not shown on there. Now it depends on your style lineage and many other things.


 
Fair enough though the link does try to come off as a teaching exercise.




> You need a Sifu to teach you the breath,the movements and the principles and how they are applied. With out it your totally lost. If you have principles from reading books which I have it doesn't matter. I had an book on Chi Kung atleast 3 years before I even started practicing Chi kung. I read the book but I didn't practice it until I had a qualified Sifu who could teach me. Now I have spoken with many people on theories and different knowledge. But my Chinese Sifu in Tai Chi is simplest. He says the key to success is practice. No matter how much theory you have it means nothing unless you practice it. Theory shows you how to use it. But what good is it to know how to use a gun if you don't have a gun? Its useless. First build the gun.


 I agree with needing a teacher.



I am also someone who is big on theory. If you practice without knowing theory you are wasting time. For example if you do not know San Bao,Kan and Li, Yin and Yang and Five element theory you will only waste the energy you are culivating. People try holding their breath and placing their attention at a particular organ resulting in Qi stagnation.

I don't disagree with aggresive Qi which would be called Fire Qi. I suspect I misread your wording as Qi in the Kidney area as Fire Qi which it is Water Qi.

I am also big on theory because many teachers teach their students Qigong exercises that 1.Can damage students who do not know what they are doing 2. Students can not progress in higher levels of cultivation because their basic levels have not been developed correctly.

One of Dr. Jwing Ming Yang's student told me that the way to see if someone is doing Tai chi chuan correctly was to refer to the classics.

In other words by knowing theory you can see who is an accomplished Qigong teacher and who is not. Which is why those who are into Newage Qigong mix their theories with other Newage or Yoga and have mixed results with their classes.

I have been to a good amount of Qigong teachers some who even taught at the Acupunture school I went to who did not know much on Qigong theory but here they were teaching it!!
 I think a Qigong teacher should be able to pick apart any Qigong set and be able to see how in theory it works and why it works.


----------



## Si-Je

Sorry, jade cloud.  I do see value in theory.  But, I disagree that the measurement for someone's level of mastery and correct utilization of chi/qi cannot be based on there "basics" of energy cultivation.
There are many ways to raise and cultivate energy, and not all of them are Eastern.
Just because someone uses qi/chi/energy and cultivates it differently than what you were taught doesn't make it 'wrong" or inferior.  Just different.
Some methods may work better for one person than another, just like regular martial arts.  Sure, some styles my be more efficient, but that doesn't always make them the best for every individual.
We're talking energy that's in your very own body, it's yours, learning to focus it on what you want it to do and the method you do that can be decided by you.

I've heard people say alot that you can 'hurt' yourself with your own energy if you do things 'incorrectly'.  I do wonder, and it's possibly out of ignorance, but how can you harm yourself with your own energy?
Especially when simply meditating and breathing on increasing flow, cultivation, and such?  The only thing I could think of is one may get too much energy built up and need to ground the excess energy?

Not wanting to start a fight now, just really curious since I've been introduced to a different way of thinking about chi/qi than alot of folks that talk about the eastern ways.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> But, I disagree that the measurement for someone's level of mastery and correct utilization of chi/qi cannot be based on there "basics" of energy cultivation.


 
Lets look at small circulation a semi advance form.

If you are keep losing Jing and not transforming it into Qi you will not be able to perform this correctly. This goes back to a very basic theory or San Bao(three treasures)



> There are many ways to raise and cultivate energy, and not all of them are Eastern.


 I agree and I am not against them. I only speak about Qigong though.



> Just because someone uses qi/chi/energy and cultivates it differently than what you were taught doesn't make it 'wrong" or inferior. Just different.


 Well the different sects of Taoism would say otherwise about different cultivation methods and disagree with the Buddhist cultivation but the theory still remains the same.
Even in Sexual Taoism is the same which is why such classics as the Harmonizing Yin and Yang could be read different ways.



> Some methods may work better for one person than another, just like regular martial arts. Sure, some styles my be more efficient, but that doesn't always make them the best for every individual.


I agree not every Qigong set is for everyone. Sometimes you have to go thru forms like Ba duan jin to correct stagnation in order to be able to go to other forms.



> I've heard people say alot that you can 'hurt' yourself with your own energy if you do things 'incorrectly'. I do wonder, and it's possibly out of ignorance, but how can you harm yourself with your own energy?


 There are plenty of people who do this. Xue Sheng here loves to mention Qigong psychosis as much as he likes mentioning Michelle Yeoh. Some people have actually gone blind practicing incorrectly.
How do people injure themselves by NOT UNDERSTANDING THEORY!!



> Especially when simply meditating and breathing on increasing flow, cultivation, and such? The only thing I could think of is one may get too much energy built up and need to ground the excess energy?


 
If it enters a cavity and causes stagnation(this sometimes happen in the Hui yin point when men try to stop there ejaculation) 

It can happen at the Jade Pillow point (nao hu GV17) when performing small circulation because it is a difficult spot to direct Qi it can stagnate causing Headaches and Neck pain.



> Not wanting to start a fight now, just really curious since I've been introduced to a different way of thinking about chi/qi than alot of folks that talk about the eastern ways.


 No fighting at all
I am not interested in other systems and since Qi is a Chinese word it belongs in Qigong.


----------



## Si-Je

I've read an article online about how practicing Qi can be dangerous to mental states.  I.e. going blind, crazy, becoming unbalanced.  (can't remember what article) is this more what your talking about the dangers of QI done improperly?

I would think that if one was going to "block" off a part of bodily function (as your example with ejaculation) these types of usage would be more dangerous than most because of the nature of blocking off qi flow to a part or parts of the body.  i.e., don't do that if you don't know how to unblock it first?
Is this type the dangers of Qi done improperly that your speaking of?
I'm not sure how you could make yourself blind, would that be done in similar fashion as blocking off flow for whatever reason at the time?

I'm new to this on a theory level.  So, I do require alot of explaination.  I've done alot of energy/Qi (i guess) work of various types before, but not much theory at all.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Well with that being said. I dont have much to argue with. On that point...very well said. Thank You...




JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Fair enough though the link does try to come off as a teaching exercise.
> 
> 
> I agree with needing a teacher.
> 
> 
> 
> I am also someone who is big on theory. If you practice without knowing theory you are wasting time. For example if you do not know San Bao,Kan and Li, Yin and Yang and Five element theory you will only waste the energy you are culivating. People try holding their breath and placing their attention at a particular organ resulting in Qi stagnation.
> 
> I don't disagree with aggresive Qi which would be called Fire Qi. I suspect I misread your wording as Qi in the Kidney area as Fire Qi which it is Water Qi.
> 
> I am also big on theory because many teachers teach their students Qigong exercises that 1.Can damage students who do not know what they are doing 2. Students can not progress in higher levels of cultivation because their basic levels have not been developed correctly.
> 
> One of Dr. Jwing Ming Yang's student told me that the way to see if someone is doing Tai chi chuan correctly was to refer to the classics.
> 
> In other words by knowing theory you can see who is an accomplished Qigong teacher and who is not. Which is why those who are into Newage Qigong mix their theories with other Newage or Yoga and have mixed results with their classes.
> 
> I have been to a good amount of Qigong teachers some who even taught at the Acupunture school I went to who did not know much on Qigong theory but here they were teaching it!!
> I think a Qigong teacher should be able to pick apart any Qigong set and be able to see how in theory it works and why it works.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Very interesting. 





JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Lets look at small circulation a semi advance form.
> 
> If you are keep losing Jing and not transforming it into Qi you will not be able to perform this correctly. This goes back to a very basic theory or San Bao(three treasures)
> 
> I agree and I am not against them. I only speak about Qigong though.
> 
> Well the different sects of Taoism would say otherwise about different cultivation methods and disagree with the Buddhist cultivation but the theory still remains the same.
> Even in Sexual Taoism is the same which is why such classics as the Harmonizing Yin and Yang could be read different ways.
> 
> 
> I agree not every Qigong set is for everyone. Sometimes you have to go thru forms like Ba duan jin to correct stagnation in order to be able to go to other forms.
> 
> There are plenty of people who do this. Xue Sheng here loves to mention Qigong psychosis as much as he likes mentioning Michelle Yeoh. Some people have actually gone blind practicing incorrectly.
> How do people injure themselves by NOT UNDERSTANDING THEORY!!
> 
> 
> 
> If it enters a cavity and causes stagnation(this sometimes happen in the Hui yin point when men try to stop there ejaculation)
> 
> It can happen at the Jade Pillow point (nao hu GV17) when performing small circulation because it is a difficult spot to direct Qi it can stagnate causing Headaches and Neck pain.
> 
> No fighting at all
> I am not interested in other systems and since Qi is a Chinese word it belongs in Qigong.


----------



## Xue Sheng

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> There are plenty of people who do this. Xue Sheng here loves to mention Qigong psychosis as much as he likes mentioning Michelle Yeoh. Some people have actually gone blind practicing incorrectly.
> How do people injure themselves by NOT UNDERSTANDING THEORY!!


 
I agree...... and..... actually I like to mention Michelle Yeoh more.... I will spare all the linked photo THIS time 

My Wife is a TCM OMD from China and when she was in college there was a fellow student in her class that was actually a rather good Bagua practitioner that got into high levels Qigong on his own because he felt he could handle high levels since he was a Bagua guy and in TCM school. 

Where once she would see him doing his Bagua very smoothly and rather effortlessly he later, after getting heavily into whatever form of Qigong he tried, was having trouble walking correctly and babbling to himself constantly. He left school and she has no idea what became of him but all involved and Qigong professor (yes they have those at TCM Universities in China) were pretty sure it was related to his attempting to train high levels of Qigong on his own, that is after they found out that is what he had done (possibly Qigong psychosis - DSM-IV).

As my wife told me back when I was working with the higher level stuff and only seeing a Sifu once every couple of months. If I have a problem she can try and fix the problem but the severity of the problem decides the success of treatment. Where a qualified Qigong Sifu (and she is talking one of those older guys that have been at it for 30 years or more that studies with a guy much older [with more experience] than them for a long time) can see the problems sometimes before you notice them and correct them and there will be no side effects. But left untreated they can really mess you up.

Qigong training is a lot more serious than most people think.


----------



## Si-Je

Xue, what is Qigong psychosis - DSM-IV?
How is this done to yourself, I would like to avoid such unpleasent sounding qi experiences.

Another question, do you ground your energy in eastern qigong?


----------



## Yoshiyahu

This Discussion is about get incredible deep. Wow...Can't wait to hear where it goes. My Sifu talked about something similiar as well...




Si-Je said:


> Xue, what is Qigong psychosis - DSM-IV?
> How is this done to yourself, I would like to avoid such unpleasent sounding qi experiences.
> 
> Another question, do you ground your energy in eastern qigong?


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> This Discussion is about get incredible deep. Wow...Can't wait to hear where it goes. My Sifu talked about something similiar as well...


 
which, the craziness, or the grounding?


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Well I am still waiting on Jade cloud to answer your first question about Grounding the energy. I can't wait to hear it. I usually get rid of my Excess Chi another way. lol...



Si-Je said:


> which, the craziness, or the grounding?


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well I am still waiting on Jade cloud to answer your first question about Grounding the energy. I can't wait to hear it. I usually get rid of my Excess Chi another way. lol...


 
Well we can skip that question if no one wants to answer it.  
But, I am really curious about the grounding.  That drill you sent makes need for me to ground after, too much energy left over unless I hit a bag after.  (when we get one)

Although I shutter to think how you may get rid of exces Chi. lol!


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> I've read an article online about how practicing Qi can be dangerous to mental states. I.e. going blind, crazy, becoming unbalanced. (can't remember what article) is this more what your talking about the dangers of QI done improperly?


 
I think alot of things can go wrong. You can damage the organs,You may have problems during Ab breathing. A teacher can fix these problems and watch to make sure they do not occur or worsen.



> I would think that if one was going to "block" off a part of bodily function (as your example with ejaculation) these types of usage would be more dangerous than most because of the nature of blocking off qi flow to a part or parts of the body. i.e., don't do that if you don't know how to unblock it first?


 Well not all blocking is dangerous if done correctly. Holding up the anus,Hands seals,Legs crossed,Tongue at roof of mouth they all have there place. I am sure it is possible for stagnation to occur. You need to know how to perform it and why you are performing it.


> Is this type the dangers of Qi done improperly that your speaking of?


Some of it yes. Others can go into catagories such as don't practice in stormy weather or right after sex to don't practice this type in this season or at a certain age.



> I'm not sure how you could make yourself blind, would that be done in similar fashion as blocking off flow for whatever reason at the time?


 In some stages there is an exercise in which you drawn in the Sun by looking at it. It would not surprise me someone may try that and become blind. I suppose it would be case by case.


----------



## mook jong man

> Although I shutter to think how you may get rid of exces Chi. lol!


 
Thanks a lot now I have this horrible mental image burned into my brain that I will never be able to erase .


----------



## Si-Je

Thanks for the post.
But, more questions arise.  (sorry) 
Why would you look into the sun?  Litteraly?

And do you ground excess energy after working with Qi?  If so, how?
I do it one way, and was wondering if their were different, or more effecient ways of grounding.


----------



## Si-Je

mook jong man said:


> Thanks a lot now I have this horrible mental image burned into my brain that I will never be able to erase .


 
I was blushing when I typed it, don't feel bad!  But, he set it up, couldn't help it.  :angel:


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> Why would you look into the sun? Litteraly?


 I don't practice this nor do I teach it because I am not interested in it at least not now.

There are more esoteric Qigong exercises that allow you to absorb Sun and Moon and even I shudder go to different planets.

Like I said I do not practice these but they do exist.



> And do you ground excess energy after working with Qi? If so, how?


 As in filling Qihai (CV7) The lower dan tian? Massaging the body to even the flow? I don't understand the question.


----------



## Si-Je

Why do you shutter to go to different planets?  Isn't the Macrocosom in the microcosom?  (or do I have that backwards? eep)
I may be thinking of the Tao way of Chi but don't you practice the "universe" inside your body/or Qi?
That's kinda the surface of what I was talking about with that meditation using the light from the sky coming into your head through your crown, the feet root to the earth and take energy from there.  Take energy from heaven and earth and the microcosom inside you is pretty much the universe.
But, I didn't get all the way through that book.  Maybe I though QiGong taught the same if not similar?
I could be confused, it does happen often.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Your husband is great way to get rid of excess Chi. I am not going into details. But my wife likes it when I don't store my Chi.




Si-Je said:


> Well we can skip that question if no one wants to answer it.
> But, I am really curious about the grounding. That drill you sent makes need for me to ground after, too much energy left over unless I hit a bag after. (when we get one)
> 
> Although I shutter to think how you may get rid of exces Chi. lol!


----------



## Yoshiyahu

_*Jade cloud said*: Some of it yes. Others can go into catagories such as don't practice in stormy weather or right after sex to don't practice this type in this season or at a certain age._

*Yoshiyahu*: Yes, I have heard from my Sifu and his Sihing that don't give away your Chi after you have cultivated it. Hold on to it. Also they say in Winter you wont to refrain from ejactualation and store more Chi. Also they talk about using sperm to convert to Jing which can be converted to Chi. 






JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I think alot of things can go wrong. You can damage the organs,You may have problems during Ab breathing. A teacher can fix these problems and watch to make sure they do not occur or worsen.
> 
> Well not all blocking is dangerous if done correctly. Holding up the anus,Hands seals,Legs crossed,Tongue at roof of mouth they all have there place. I am sure it is possible for stagnation to occur. You need to know how to perform it and why you are performing it.
> 
> Some of it yes. Others can go into catagories such as don't practice in stormy weather or right after sex to don't practice this type in this season or at a certain age.
> 
> In some stages there is an exercise in which you drawn in the Sun by looking at it. It would not surprise me someone may try that and become blind. I suppose it would be case by case.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I try not to ground Chi after cultivation. I allow my state to turn natural on its on. My Sifu said after working out don't eat anything for like an hour and don't take cold bath until the body cools down. Otherwise you could send the body into shock. But for me I allow my body to calm naturally. Or I meditate on nothingness. I need the extra energy anyway I have two jobs. But usually I try not to do too much before I am going to sleep. I try to do things early enough so when I need to go bed I don't have to wait three hours. But sometimes I ground my Chi with my Ishah.




Si-Je said:


> Thanks for the post.
> But, more questions arise. (sorry)
> Why would you look into the sun? Litteraly?
> 
> And do you ground excess energy after working with Qi? If so, how?
> I do it one way, and was wondering if their were different, or more effecient ways of grounding.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Well now I want to talk about the Three Dan Tiens. Can you share your knowledge of the Three Dan Tiens and their benefits and uses Jadecloud?

Also In my opinion Si-Je is saying what does she do to rid herself of some of energy. Like for instance when you got so much energy or chi it has you like ampted or hyped up and you want to go to bed while your kid is a asleep how to you ground some of that energy or Chi so you won't be so wound up.

If i am wrong in my opinion I apologize Si-Je...




JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I don't practice this nor do I teach it because I am not interested in it at least not now.
> 
> There are more esoteric Qigong exercises that allow you to absorb Sun and Moon and even I shudder go to different planets.
> 
> Like I said I do not practice these but they do exist.
> 
> As in filling Qihai (CV7) The lower dan tian? Massaging the body to even the flow? I don't understand the question.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

I was thinking about this last night when I said Qihai is CV7. That is incorrect Qihai is CV6.



> Why do you shutter to go to different planets?


 
I think that type belongs in religous Taoism. I shutter because it is to newage for me. 




> Isn't the Macrocosom in the microcosom


 
Yes. Because everything is connected.



> I may be thinking of the Tao way of Chi but don't you practice the "universe" inside your body/or Qi?


 
If you mean returning to Tao then yes. 



> That's kinda the surface of what I was talking about with that meditation using the light from the sky coming into your head through your crown, the feet root to the earth and take energy from there. Take energy from heaven and earth and the microcosom inside you is pretty much the universe.


 Yes alot of similar Qigong exercises do this.
Taking from nature and projecting toward nature are part of Qigong.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> Well now I want to talk about the Three Dan Tiens. Can you share your knowledge of the Three Dan Tiens and their benefits and uses Jadecloud?


 
That is a lengthy topic I could write an article on that. I could write an article just on one Dan tien. You would have to ask more specific.



> Also In my opinion Si-Je is saying what does she do to rid herself of some of energy.


 Why would you want to spend time gathering Qi to waste it away?



> Like for instance when you got so much energy or chi it has you like ampted or hyped up and you want to go to bed while your kid is a asleep how to you ground some of that energy or Chi so you won't be so wound up.


 The mind is not stilled. It is common to feel like this when you have built up a great amount. If you do not still your heart(Xin) practice may be in vain.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Si-Je said:


> Xue, what is Qigong psychosis - DSM-IV?
> How is this done to yourself, I would like to avoid such unpleasent sounding qi experiences.
> 
> Another question, do you ground your energy in eastern qigong?


 
To avoid it find a teacher that is a real qigong teacher. There are a lot of alleged qigong teachers out there today who really do not know qigong much beyond the 7000 forms of it they dance to. Or that make fabulous claims and demonstrations to show off their great powers of Qi that turn out to be more along the lines of they have successfully taught their students how to fall down.

But now I need to say JadecloudAlchemist has a much higher level of skill and understanding than I do of things Qigong I trained Qigong for a while but know where near the length and depth of JadecloudAlchemist. All of my Qi training these days is that which is associated with the CMA styles that I train. But this is just the long way around of saying I tend to defer all things qigong to JadecloudAlchemist because he knows more about it than I do. 

But a note to why you really need a teacher, in my brand of Yang style there are 2 (2.5 if you count in strange ways like me) microcosmic orbits, one much easier than the other and mostly (or at least this is my understanding of it) for Martial Arts training one specificly for MA training (and it is much harder than if looks and sound) and all are easier to develop than the macrocosmic orbit. Also there are different ways of breathing for different purposes and this too is best undertaken with a teacher. 

As to Qigong Psychosis, I again have to defer to another, my wife. I honestly wish I could get here to post an answer here but she will not but I have a few links that will explain it better than I

Qi-Gong Psychotic Reaction - Qigong Psychosis



> DSM-IV as "an acute, time-limited episode characterized by dissociative, paranoid, or other psychotic or non-psychotic symptoms", and that "especially vulnerable are individuals who become overly involved" in qi-gong.


 
And here on page 142 of the Encyclopedia of Multicultural Psychology


----------



## Si-Je

Yoshiyahu said:


> Also In my opinion Si-Je is saying what does she do to rid herself of some of energy. Like for instance when you got so much energy or chi it has you like ampted or hyped up and you want to go to bed while your kid is a asleep how to you ground some of that energy or Chi so you won't be so wound up.
> 
> If i am wrong in my opinion I apologize Si-Je...


 
No, that's right.  There's no reason to carry around excess Chi/energy ever.  You have to train your body how to handle it and store it.  If you constantly walk around with a ton of extra energy you "leak" energy.  You can affect those around you and set things in motion that you may not have really inteded.

Jadecloud, the reason I release qi is because I can always get more.  (that part I'm pretty good at)  The source is neverending, you just have to re-charge from time to time.  And there is no reason to be so consumed with collecting energy/power that I have too much for my body to handle.  I would think that would cause problems too.  i.e. maybe make me too hyper, testy, edgy, unfocused, etc..  Take what the body understands and build that tolerance up slowly.

Xue, that was a good article on qi physcosis.  And thank you for it.  I had no idea there was a official "mental dissorder" attributed to this.  
But, it seems to me from that particular example anyway, that people are not accepting the knowledge that is shared with them and to take anti-physcotic medication will just end your life as a conherant human being.
Why didn't he just continue to practice taking the "advice" from himself, or his guides?
It's not like the voices were telling him to kill people, or do anything crazy.  He was afraid because he didn't understand what was happening.  
And now he's so drugged up he's eating wallpaper!

And if qigong has been practiced as this type of new age spritual movement, why couldn't the qi masters help him come to terms with this?  Couldn't they tell him what the "voices" were?  Did they not know?


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> There's no reason to carry around excess Chi/energy ever. You have to train your body how to handle it and store it. If you constantly walk around with a ton of extra energy you "leak" energy. You can affect those around you and set things in motion that you may not have really inteded.


  Ideally you want to fill the 12 channels and 8 extra vessels up. You are suppose to be building up Qi. In order to have Qi run smoothly thru the channels you have to build it up. If your mind is calm your Qi will be smooth. The formula goes like this Jing(essence)-Qi(energy)-Shen(spirit)-Ling Shen(supernatural spirit) or Hsien(immortal)




> Jadecloud, the reason I release qi is because I can always get more.


 
If you are speaking of sexual practices with a partner it is not within my scope of training. I know some but not enough and those who claim to teach it or those who practice it I am highly doubtful they are practicing it correctly. Because it is seen as a crooked path(I mean we are talking about monks here) Its teachings I feel are some what secret.



> I would think that would cause problems too. i.e. maybe make me too hyper, testy, edgy, unfocused, etc.. Take what the body understands and build that tolerance up slowly.


 If you are feeling Hyper and so on then your mind is not clear.

 The Xin(emotional mind) is causing this and who knows maybe you lead Qi in one of the Organs causing this. Maybe You built Qi up but because you do not know how to freeze the spirit(meaning the spirit is not firm in its cavity)



> Why didn't he just continue to practice taking the "advice" from himself, or his guides?


 I am going to say that thru the different texts on Qigong and Alchemy we do find people who say they are having dreams in which someone teaches them. I have been guilty of that too.
There is also texts in which the person would see actual gods in their body parts such as God of the Liver God of the Heart etc.
We find all sorts of supernatural stories. Now I personally put them in the catagory of religion. And this does tie in with the whole traveling to another planet mediation. Yes in the texts and sects it does exist but I think there is a thin line between religion Qigong and Qigong psychosis.
With me in having a dream about certain training things I think of it more as the Superego or higher self putting a spin on an theory more than an actual person. I don't practice anything obsecure and if you treat Qigong as more science than mysticism you most likely will not fall into Qigong pyschosis. 



> It's not like the voices were telling him to kill people, or do anything crazy. He was afraid because he didn't understand what was happening.
> And now he's so drugged up he's eating wallpaper!


 God only knows what bizzare thing it could have said such as something as bad as eat babies to gain the truest source of Qi or something.



> And if qigong has been practiced as this type of new age spritual movement, why couldn't the qi masters help him come to terms with this?


 Who knows if they were as whacked out as he is. Ken Cohen in one of his books spoke about meeting someone who suffered from Qigong psychosis he had the guy tire himself out so he could relax and had him just do Zhang zhan mediation until he got back to normal.



> Couldn't they tell him what the "voices" were?


 
They may have said it was one of the eight immortals talking to him only reenforcing the belief. And there are plenty of stories about learning from them!!


----------



## Xue Sheng

Si-Je said:


> But, it seems to me from that particular example anyway, that people are not accepting the knowledge that is shared with them and to take anti-physcotic medication will just end your life as a conherant human being.
> Why didn't he just continue to practice taking the "advice" from himself, or his guides?



 Guides? Are you talking about the voices? And to say you are seeking the help of a qigong master can mean someone who calls himself a master or someone who really is a master. But as far as my understanding goes if he were training with a "real" master in the first place they could have seen the problem at the beginning and correct it. Once the damage is done it is much harder to fix if it can be fixed at all.

All I will say is that people I know and trust as trained in and about Qigong from reputable places or from reputable lineages all say the same thing, you need a teacher and high levels are dangerous without one. Low levels can be to but that is not as common since most never really gone beyond the belief that they are training it when they are basically going through the motions.



Si-Je said:


> It's not like the voices were telling him to kill people, or do anything crazy. He was afraid because he didn't understand what was happening.
> And now he's so drugged up he's eating wallpaper!
> 
> And if qigong has been practiced as this type of new age spritual movement, why couldn't the qi masters help him come to terms with this? Couldn't they tell him what the "voices" were? Did they not know?


 
Because he was given bad direction if he was given any direction at all. The damage was done and now it may be irreversible. Look at it this way if someone does not feel well and decides to take herbs on their own without a real live well trained herbologist it can be dangerous to fatal and once you are so sick they can no longer function properly they go see an MD. Well they could have reached toxic levels of whatever herb they are taking and the MD can't fix the damage. Or he finds you have been trying to self treat a tumor that was fixable in the early stages but is malignant now. 

Qigong is not magic and it can be dangerous if done wrong. Go to Beijing University of TCM and they will tell you the majority of people out there claiming great powers of qi for healing and knocking people down at a distance are fake. So how many real live qigong masters are there out there. My suspicion is there are a few, but far fewer than those that claim to be. But my suspicion is also that like the majority of the real neijia people out of China these qigong masters don&#8217;t talk about it much so they are hard to find.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

How can Chi Kung benefit you in fighting. I am not interested in Tracendal Meditation, Chakras, Buddah, Nirvana, Telepathy or any other sort of Spiritual path way. I am interested in Using Chi Kung to heal and increase health and to advance my Fighting skills.


So how can Chi be used to defeat an stronger opponent or an faster opponent?


----------



## Xue Sheng

Yoshiyahu said:


> How can Chi Kung benefit you in fighting. I am not interested in Tracendal Meditation, Chakras, Buddah, Nirvana, Telepathy or any other sort of Spiritual path way. I am interested in Using Chi Kung to heal and increase health and to advance my Fighting skills.
> 
> 
> So how can Chi be used to defeat an stronger opponent or an faster opponent?


 
Lots of training for relaxation, but not total relaxation (the Chinese term escapes me for the moment) and fajing. 

Simply put don't let your muscles get in the way of your power. 

Look for my post on Sandao (not Sanda)


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Very interesting Post




Xue Sheng said:


> Lots of training for relaxation, but not total relaxation (the Chinese term escapes me for the moment) and fajing.
> 
> Simply put don't let your muscles get in the way of your power.
> 
> Look for my post on Sandao (not Sanda)


----------



## Si-Je

You don't have to replenish energy by getting it from someone else, either sexually or whatever.  I get it other ways, neutral ways.  Collect it, cleanse it, convert it, store it.

But, thanks for the insight, I had no idea people were having such a hard time with higher levels of Qi, or really anything about how you train it or apply it.  Your posts have cleared up enough for me to choose which path to train in.  (there are so many)

I know your into the combat aspects more Yoshi, which are great.  But, I think training what your training will help you recieve your desired results.
I like learning qi for martial arts aspects too, but feel that a greater understanding of the rest of it would only benefit one in martial arts training.  Even if it's transendentalist, or weird, hokie, or strange.  
All of it's pretty hokie and strange anyways, so the more you can accept, understand and embrace I feel would only help you in martial arts.
I didn't mean to derail your intention with this thread.  I'm just really curious person.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Just a note, if you are talking the Chinese view of Qi (energy) and its associated theory  

first there are 2 types

1) Congenital Qi - Inherited from our parents that Can be conserved but not replenished 
2) Acquired Qi or Post Natal Qi - Can be stored and replenished

Second

1) Good/Strong flow of qi and you are healthy
2) Bad/weak flow of qi you are sick
3) No qi you are dead.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

I am totally interested in Chi for these main reasons

1.Fighting
2.Healting
3.Longetivty
4.Better Health
5.More Energy

But I wasn't saying to replenish by giving it to someone else. But you can ground it with the use of another person. I believe its called emitting Chi. Or you can just hold on to it and learn to evolve with a higher level of Chi. But as for Getting Chi Sexually. Actually I can't explain it. But I am sometimes able to sense someones energy. Or even take a little bit of it. Not from sexual contact but just from tactile contact. Not totally touching but coming close to touching. Like the hand is hoovering over the four head or chest and I feel the some of the energy pouring into me. I also like to stimulate my wife's chi by certain pressure points on her spine by lightly sliding my fingers across it and massaging or circling the meridens. There are some weird things I have picked up and learn from Chi. But my main purpose is not to give demostrations of the power of Chi or do a magic trick like a Magi. I am not looking for fame. But to use my Chi in totally advatageous way. Being able to read someones mind or enter their body I would totally abuse that. I don't need that in my life. Plus those aspects of Chi open up door ways that you may not be able to close. Spiritual door ways that cause a god(demon) to enter your body and make you crazy. The voices people Hear or Spirits that have entered their body while they were astral planning to another dimension or world. My Sifu's Sihing was into Astral Planning and even levatation. But he still can beat my Sifu fighting in actual combat. So all his Chi accomplishment are great. He may be able to break bricks, Push a Dumpster five feet a way from a palm strike. But his Sidai can beat him in Combat. No matter how much older or longer he studied or how strong his Chi,Iron Palm and Iron Body how much theory or scholarly knowledge he has He can not defeat his little brother. I rather be a better fighter. I am speaking from experience now.

Which is better to be the one everyone says he has alot of head knowledge he so very smart.

Or He is the one that has mastery skill that no one can match. He is better fighter than his older brother. Although his older brother Chi is heavier he has more skill and he is the one I will be beside if a war breaks out.

Thats my point of View. As for studing and being a book worm. I do that now on several subjects as well as Wing Chun. But I want more than to be known as Theory and Knowledge man. 



Si-Je said:


> You don't have to replenish energy by getting it from someone else, either sexually or whatever. I get it other ways, neutral ways. Collect it, cleanse it, convert it, store it.
> 
> But, thanks for the insight, I had no idea people were having such a hard time with higher levels of Qi, or really anything about how you train it or apply it. Your posts have cleared up enough for me to choose which path to train in. (there are so many)
> 
> I know your into the combat aspects more Yoshi, which are great. But, I think training what your training will help you recieve your desired results.
> I like learning qi for martial arts aspects too, but feel that a greater understanding of the rest of it would only benefit one in martial arts training. Even if it's transendentalist, or weird, hokie, or strange.
> All of it's pretty hokie and strange anyways, so the more you can accept, understand and embrace I feel would only help you in martial arts.
> I didn't mean to derail your intention with this thread. I'm just really curious person.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

You guys are really going deep into the Theroy. You totally brought back to my memory about the inherited Chi. I was sharing that with my wife but I didn't know the name. We were talking about Chi you cultivate and chi your born with. Thats why some children who parents practice martial arts have an easier time learning and growing in certain arts. Because they have inherited Chi level. 

So true. Its Ironic I was just talking about this Wednsday Night but totally forgot the terms for it. Ironic. I need to get my eight piece of brodcade book and studie it now. lol



Xue Sheng said:


> Just a note, if you are talking the Chinese view of Qi (energy) and its associated theory
> 
> first there are 2 types
> 
> 1) Congenital Qi - Inherited from our parents that Can be conserved but not replenished
> 2) Acquired Qi or Post Natal Qi - Can be stored and replenished
> 
> Second
> 
> 1) Good/Strong flow of qi and you are healthy
> 2) Bad/weak flow of qi you are sick
> 3) No qi you are dead.


----------



## Si-Je

Well, all I know we had a "qi" class we did at a rec. center a couple of years ago.  We had one 85 year old lady with severe athritus in her hips, knees, ankles, wrists, well, just all over.  She didn't walk very well at all.
Now at first, she did meditation first sitting, then si lim tao, and a bit of qigong, and then grounded energy. And we built her up to standing for longer periods of time as the classe went.
We taught her si lim tao, chum-kiu and halfway through bil ge.  All forms were done extremely slow.  As she could stand for longer periods of time we did more and more form.  After the forms, we'd do some qigong, then have her sit on a chair for meditation of the "inner smile" meditation. (this alowed her to replenish after building so much energy and doing alot of physical exertion, for her.) After that, we had her ground a bit through her feet, and center.  

After a couple of months, they only reason she "hurt herself" is because her arthritius was all but completely gone.  She'd practice inner smile meditation on her own at home too.  And she was walking drastically better, more balance, no pain.
So, she decided one day she was board and was froggy enough to move her 6 ft. tall bookcase up the stairs in her house.  This she did, and pulled a back muscle.  Made it up the stairs without incident with the bookcase!  She came to our class, Hubbie did energy work on her back, and after a couple of classes like regular, she was good to go.
We did these classes for hour and half for two days a week.  
It was the coolest ever watching her become more flexable, and her posture straightening, balance becoming more sturdy, and the pained look on her face leaving more each class.  
This is how Qi/chi will help you in a martial art standpoint.  Without the full knowledge of the big picture, your progress won't be as complete if one just focus's on fighting prowess.
We soon got this elderly woman doing more and more martial art technique of wing chun and cane defenses.  Something she never thought she could do!  (she didn't need the cane anymore! lol! just carried it around because we taught her cane defense)
Anyways, to me, the "esoteric" part of qi and the practical application in martial arts progression of power are one and the same.  Each a part of the other.  Yin Yang, whatever.
If you learn where to strike to hurt, those same points can be used to help or heal.  same same, just depends on your "intention".
This is what I've learned so far from Old chi/qi man (have no idea which "school" of energy he trained from or used.  I don't think he had one, or he used all).  
I do love this thread, it is really helping me relearn what was given to me as teaching, that I didn't reconize then because we were just "hanging out".  
I just don't think you should have fear of qi intangled into your intention when you do this stuff.  Perfect love and perfect trust is the best way, that way you don't hurt yourself or others.


----------



## qwksilver61

Here is one for all of you to chew on.I once was in a transitional period,experimenting with different arts.only about 7 mos. into Wing Tsun.I noticed that after a while I developed the so called " cinnabar palms" part of the meditative stage and also known as the "cultivation of chi" I found out  Ba Gua Zhang purely by accident...started the trigram-lifting-dropping of the weighted balls (heavy bowling balls) whilst practicing the form....then...all of a sudden,I became violently Ill,taking note that no one was sick around me at the time to my knowlege,not just sick...violently Ill. I immediately dropped the training and within hours I was back to normal. Honestly I have not experienced anything like it since.I believe in the theory of meridians within the human physiology and that thay can be manipulated....heck look at Monks or people in the Military.....go figure......now I sustain high energy levels all day,but caution...anxiety levels are high.....be cognizant...suggestion... when performing SNT no distractions,no anxiety.....and above all relax! Xue sheng I believe you lead this one,this is no joke for all you serious MA people.Listen!


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Yea, I don't see that as Esoteric. That falls under healing and better health. But yea. At my Tai Chi Class there was this old guy who could barely move who came to class and after a about couple of months he was moving better than me. So I have witness that. But the problem is he didn't stay with. I guess he seen progress enough where he got rid of some of pain so he didn't need it no more. You still have to have a desire. But this old guy wasn't into the estoric stuff. He just simply did the Chi Kung and Tai Chi Form. Also there was this one guy who had cancer. He did alot of Chi Kung and Tai Chi and lived about seven more years with out cancer. An others who have had health problems at the class have reported something similiar. Especially when I get a cold I do a ton of Tai Chi and Bil Gee to burn the cold out. I also do some Chi Kung and walking the circle. It really works. 





Si-Je said:


> Well, all I know we had a "qi" class we did at a rec. center a couple of years ago. We had one 85 year old lady with severe athritus in her hips, knees, ankles, wrists, well, just all over. She didn't walk very well at all.
> Now at first, she did meditation first sitting, then si lim tao, and a bit of qigong, and then grounded energy. And we built her up to standing for longer periods of time as the classe went.
> We taught her si lim tao, chum-kiu and halfway through bil ge. All forms were done extremely slow. As she could stand for longer periods of time we did more and more form. After the forms, we'd do some qigong, then have her sit on a chair for meditation of the "inner smile" meditation. (this alowed her to replenish after building so much energy and doing alot of physical exertion, for her.) After that, we had her ground a bit through her feet, and center.
> 
> After a couple of months, they only reason she "hurt herself" is because her arthritius was all but completely gone. She'd practice inner smile meditation on her own at home too. And she was walking drastically better, more balance, no pain.
> So, she decided one day she was board and was froggy enough to move her 6 ft. tall bookcase up the stairs in her house. This she did, and pulled a back muscle. Made it up the stairs without incident with the bookcase! She came to our class, Hubbie did energy work on her back, and after a couple of classes like regular, she was good to go.
> We did these classes for hour and half for two days a week.
> It was the coolest ever watching her become more flexable, and her posture straightening, balance becoming more sturdy, and the pained look on her face leaving more each class.
> This is how Qi/chi will help you in a martial art standpoint. Without the full knowledge of the big picture, your progress won't be as complete if one just focus's on fighting prowess.
> We soon got this elderly woman doing more and more martial art technique of wing chun and cane defenses. Something she never thought she could do! (she didn't need the cane anymore! lol! just carried it around because we taught her cane defense)
> Anyways, to me, the "esoteric" part of qi and the practical application in martial arts progression of power are one and the same. Each a part of the other. Yin Yang, whatever.
> If you learn where to strike to hurt, those same points can be used to help or heal. same same, just depends on your "intention".
> This is what I've learned so far from Old chi/qi man (have no idea which "school" of energy he trained from or used. I don't think he had one, or he used all).
> I do love this thread, it is really helping me relearn what was given to me as teaching, that I didn't reconize then because we were just "hanging out".
> I just don't think you should have fear of qi intangled into your intention when you do this stuff. Perfect love and perfect trust is the best way, that way you don't hurt yourself or others.


----------



## Si-Je

Sounds like the chi master is too smart to HAVE to fight. lol!  He's got you on his side, he doesn't need to fight.  
If he can palm strike a dumpster and move it like five feet, maybe he chooses to "lose" to his little brother becasue he doesn't want to use that kind of force upon him.  (couldn't that kill someone?)

It is better to be hurt than to maim.
It is better maim than to kill.
It is better to kill than to be killed.  

Just another peek into my head.  I'm sure ya'll are getting sick of it.  lol!
If I could generate that much power in a strike, I wouldn't hit my little brother either.  Possibly no matter what he does.  If I was smart enough to accomplish what needs to be done without doing anything.  Then I would be a master!

Action without doing.


----------



## qwksilver61

Most here in the States do not teach the true combative form of Tai Chi,if you do not at least develop some relaxed hardness then you are not practicing True Tai Chi.Most are blindly lead by the form and cannot fight their way out of a paper bag.True,some activity is better than none.....my preference is the sun style.....


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Well We train Yang Style. My Sifu who taught me the Wing Chun also teaches me Tai Chi. Now the Chinese guy who taught him the Tai Chi as been practicing for over 40 years. An my Sifu has been practicing Tai Chi for over 15 years. His Sifu is great a Tai Chi Expert. An they all go over combat techniques. There is another Younger student in his twenties who studies Chen. He practices many drills and can see clearly the combat techniques with Tai Chi. They do some light sparring using Tai Chi and Baguazhang we also do Chi Sau after the end of class!


But I know my Sifu can fight with it. I just really started doing the Yang form Seriously. I knew about all theory before hand because I studied because my Sifu told too years ago. But I having be doing Tai Chi on a steady basis for about half a year now...Maybe a little longer. 

I can see some great application is Tai Chi. Even in the forms their are millions of applications. But it takes a partner to drill it with and spar with to get profiecent with your Tai Chi. But your right many Tai Chi Schools won't teach the fighting aspect or don't know. But then again some do. I was at Tai Chi demostration on Earth Day at forest park. A older Guy came up an told one the people who was at the stand. Yea that Tai Chi looks pretty But you can't fight with it. Now The guy at the booth was just talking to me how he and his wife spar all the time. She uses the Tai Chi and he uses the Kenpo. He is black blet and instructor in Kenpo. Anyway she holds her ground with the Tai Chi against a Black belt in Kenpo. So I think she can fight with it. He Says its no Joke himself. But the problem is most people who do Tai Chi do not seek confortation. What I mean is they frown on challenge sparring. So many people don't know they can fight with their Tai Chi.

Needle At sea Bottom is great technique for grabbing the neck to knee or just pulling the head to ground. Lets not talk about the Palm Strike with Single whip. First you pull your foe off balance then palm strike him at the same time as he weight and body plunges forward. The Palm thrust into heart of the chest. Ouch. What about Grasp sparrows tail personally I like to use this as a throw or to grab someones neck. It could be use as deadly move too. But what about wave hands like clouds, Reminds me of Tan Sau or Wu Sau blocks. An lets not forget Tiger returns to the Mountain. Wow great palm strikes to the kidneys. But the applications on the techinques I just named are infinite. But In tai chi I am just a beginner so what do I do know. May be your right no one in Amerikkka can fight with Tai Chi.


But what about Chi Kung thats found in the Wing Chun System? 

What is purpose of Chi Kung In Wing Chun?



qwksilver61 said:


> Most here in the States do not teach the true combative form of Tai Chi,if you do not at least develop some relaxed hardness then you are not practicing True Tai Chi.Most are blindly lead by the form and cannot fight their way out of a paper bag.True,some activity is better than none.....my preference is the sun style.....


----------



## qwksilver61

True and like you said,only real *contact* Tai Chi like with any other art...
Chi cultivation does exist within the first form......pay heed to the rules. scoffers and naysayers...hmmm..!!!


----------



## Yoshiyahu

True alot of benefits from the forms. But don't stop there. break down each move and drill it. Do two man drills which move. shadow box with the techniques and free spar with them. Also try the Techinques out on Punching bag, Muay Tai Bag and Centutry Bob hitting Target.

Also Iron Palm goes great with Tai Chi palm Strikes!



qwksilver61 said:


> True and like you said,only real *contact* Tai Chi like with any other art...
> Chi cultivation does exist within the first form......pay heed to the rules. scoffers and naysayers...hmmm..!!!


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Jade Alchemist

Continue sharing with us about the Theory of Chi and Jing...

I will share my little tid bit and you may correct or add upon as you see fit!


*There are three main types of Chi*​There is the *Prenatal or Primordial Chi* which is inheredited by the parents Through conception and compulation. The Chi is derived from the congential essence of the parents which is substance it takes to make and embryo IE Spearm and Egg(Menstrual blood/zygote). After birth the Congential Jing is stored in kidneys to promote development of reproductive system as wall control and maintain it. The second Formation of Chi comes from the very foods you eat. The food you eat is distributed all across the body producing nutrients and Chi. This sometimes called *Nutritive Chi*. The Chi is carried through your body via the blood under the direction of the spleen and stomach. Then the third accumlation of Chi comes from the very Air you breathe. Fresh air is enhaled by the lung is in fact the main source of Chi through out the human body. The Chi in the human body is very much dependant on Kidneys, Lungs, Spleen and Stomach.

Now there are Four Classification of Chi. But I won't delved into that right now. They are similiar to three I just named but also intel of desired functions and processes needed to keep the body running smoothly.


What is Chi? Chi is Energy or Air
What is Kung? Kung is skill or Work
What Chi Kung? Air work or Energy Work
What is Jing? Jing is your spearm or essence

Jing is basically known as Kidney Essence.

There are three main Jewels or Treasures
Chi=Energy/Breath
Shen=Spirit/soul
Jing=Kidey Essence/Sperm

Also there is YI = mind/intent I would love to hear Jade talk more about the Yi in relation to your Chi and Jing. 

Jing is the most dense phyiscal matter in the body. Jing is material basis for the human body and is Yin in Nature. The Jing is stored in the Kidneys. The Jing actually creates marrow and semen. You have prenatal jing known as Yuan Chi. But you acquire more Jing from Exercise(Wing Chun Practice)Study, Meditation and even food. Chi Kung is dedicated to replenishing post natal Jing. Since prenatal Jing can not be renewed once consumed. Walking the Circle helps to preserve prenatal Jing and accumlate post natal jing/ Ginseng is great herb to utlize for Jing and Chi Accumlation.

Now when you practice Wing Chun Forms you are doing both Nei Gong(Internal Work) and Wai Gong(External Work).

Neija means Internal
Wai means External

Neigong is a set of Chinese breathing and meditation exercises. When you practice Sil Lim Tao you are meditating on circulation of Chi from you Dan Tien to your limbs up your spine to your brain etc etc. You also utilize the breathe. That means breath out when you punch tan sau etc. Breath in during retraction. Even with Wu Sau Fook Sau. Breath in bringing Wu Sau closer to body. Breath out pushing Fook Sau away from the body.

When you strecth meditate on your Chi and moving it through your body.

When you do stance work meditate on your Chi to cyclone it through your body. 

In time you will be able to feel your Chi first maybe in your finger tips, Then hands then arms and then legs and feet. An all through out your body. 

But I will let you elaborate more on that Mr. Chinese Alchemy.

Jade you spoke of men not ejactulating. Well some men do so for iron body studies. Here is some text I located for you talking about another reason for stopping ejactulation:

Men have to get aroused almost to the point of ejaculation, then mentally concentrate on making the semen flow upwards instead, along the spine and then into the head area.. This act is called "reverting the semen to nourish the brain" Once a man has mastered this and no longer ejaculates, he then has "subdued the white tiger" The energy can then circulate in what is called the "microcosmic orbit"  A "pearl of dew" forms in the abdominal cinnabar which is where the divine chi is made. The more chi that circulates through your body builds up a stronger and purer chi which is what you desire for immortality. The more you have, the stronger your chi.

And as for women:
Women to preserve chi are first subject to follow a diet with lighter bland foods and mediations which will make the red menstrual blood rise upwards. This will leave only a clear coloured fluid or chi. You want this clear coloured chi because it means you are not losing any vitality and can eventually achieve immortality. After the women has depleted the red blood from her menstrual blood, it is known that she has "decapitated the red dragon,"which stabilizes chi. The menstrual blood is brought upward monthly forming the female "pearl of dew". The layers are built up forming a strong chi. The "pearl of dew" is present in every women from birth, but disappears during every monthly cycle, losing the chi in the body.

So I take Jade your into acheiving immortality?


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist

> What is Jing? Jing is your spearm or essence


 Not quite Jing just means essence of something. Sperm is called Jing Zhi.



> Shen=Spirit/soul


 Shen=spirit Soul=Hun



> Also there is YI = mind/intent I would love to hear Jade talk more about the Yi in relation to your Chi and Jing.


 You would have to ask a question or wait until someone says to many incorrect things in which I go on a rant about it lol.



> prenatal jing known as Yuan Chi


 Not quite Yuan meaning orginal so Yuan Jing would be prenatal Jing which become Yuan Qi.


> But you acquire more Jing from Exercise


 I am guessing you are not talking about Yuan Jing right?




> Walking the Circle helps to preserve prenatal Jing and accumlate post natal jing/ Ginseng is great herb to utlize for Jing and Chi Accumlation


 Walking the circle as in Baguazhang? I have not heard of this is able to preserve prenatal Jing. If you are loosing Jing thru Sex,Thru the Ming men gates and are not taking care of the Kidneys I don't see how walking the circle will benefit unless you are preventing and taking care of the said problems. Ginseng is a great herb if you know the correct amount and the correct time to take it. 

I don't know how Wingchun does there Qigong exercises. I would think most would have it go from Qihai up the Spine then down the arm but as long as it follows the correct flow I don't see it as the way you mention to be much of a problem either.


> But I will let you elaborate more on that Mr. Chinese Alchemy.


 I hope Mr. Chinese Alchemy speaks too would be nice to have another Alchemist on here.



> Jade you spoke of men not ejactulating. Well some men do so for iron body studies.


 I don't study Iron body but I imagine such a form would want you to reserve your jing and convert it into Qi. If you are letting loose your Jing you are not able to build up Qi. So I don't know how you can practice Iron body. But Dale Dugas can explain it better since he practices this. I don't know how you are going to convert and build up Qi into the channels if you keep loosing Jing and having your channels full of Qi I would think is a requirement for Iron body.



> So I take Jade your into acheiving immortality?


 
I have no idea what you mean by immortality.

I wil say this though what you are speaking about is Sexual Alchemy and Almost noone is teaching that and those who say they are I doubt they are legit.

And what you have said concerning trying to stop the ejaculation will cause stagnation in Hui Yin. There are correct ways to engage in Sexual Alchemy but you have to be almost emotionally deattached and do specific things to achieve the results.  "The more chi that circulates through your body builds up a stronger and purer chi which is what you desire for immortality"=Nope this is not true.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Thank you for sharing your opinions with us. Great.



jadecloudalchemist said:


> not quite jing just means essence of something. Sperm is called jing zhi.
> 
> Shen=spirit soul=hun
> 
> you would have to ask a question or wait until someone says to many incorrect things in which i go on a rant about it lol.
> 
> Not quite yuan meaning orginal so yuan jing would be prenatal jing which become yuan qi.
> I am guessing you are not talking about yuan jing right?
> 
> 
> Walking the circle as in baguazhang? I have not heard of this is able to preserve prenatal jing. If you are loosing jing thru sex,thru the ming men gates and are not taking care of the kidneys i don't see how walking the circle will benefit unless you are preventing and taking care of the said problems. Ginseng is a great herb if you know the correct amount and the correct time to take it.
> 
> I don't know how wingchun does there qigong exercises. I would think most would have it go from qihai up the spine then down the arm but as long as it follows the correct flow i don't see it as the way you mention to be much of a problem either.
> I hope mr. Chinese alchemy speaks too would be nice to have another alchemist on here.
> 
> I don't study iron body but i imagine such a form would want you to reserve your jing and convert it into qi. If you are letting loose your jing you are not able to build up qi. So i don't know how you can practice iron body. But dale dugas can explain it better since he practices this. I don't know how you are going to convert and build up qi into the channels if you keep loosing jing and having your channels full of qi i would think is a requirement for iron body.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you mean by immortality.
> 
> I wil say this though what you are speaking about is sexual alchemy and almost noone is teaching that and those who say they are i doubt they are legit.
> 
> And what you have said concerning trying to stop the ejaculation will cause stagnation in hui yin. There are correct ways to engage in sexual alchemy but you have to be almost emotionally deattached and do specific things to achieve the results. "the more chi that circulates through your body builds up a stronger and purer chi which is what you desire for immortality"=nope this is not true.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Before I go further I need to say this post appears to be getting a bit hostile (ex Mr. Chinese Alchemy) but maybe I am getting the wrong impression. However to the point what JadecloudAlchemist said in his last post is fact not opinion if you are honestly looking at this form a Chinese perspective which is where Qi study came from. For example Shen translates to spirit and to a Chinese person spirit does not mean soul. To define spirit as soul is most definitely a Western interpretation, NOT Chinese.



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Shen=spirit Soul=Hun


 
Thank You :asian:

That one right there confuses more Westerners and makes them take it down a spiritual path it was never meant to go down. 

Shen = Spirit (NOT soul)
Jing = Essence
Qi = Energy

Qi is not be spirit or Shen in Qigong, CMA or Traditional Chinese Medicine, although Shen does control Qi, it is not Qi and Shen is not soul

Thinking in the Chinese terminology with the Chinese definition shen is what keeps you alive and it is what controls Qi, when your Shen is strong your Qi is strong. The root of the Shen is your mind, Yi (aka intention) again not spiritual and not soul

Qi come from converting Jing from the food you eat and the air you breathe and there is Jing you inherited from your parents.

So going by the Chinese definition used in CMA, TCM and Qigong, qi is not spirit it is shen and shen is not soul

And as stated there are various types of Jing but it is the original Jing that you inherit form your parents that is the most important, it is the base, if you will, to grow on. This is what must be protected to maintain health and to live a long life. You cannot increase this, what qigong does is improve the quality of it. 

And lastly

This could be a difference between Cantonese and Mandarin but looking at it from a Mandarin POV

nèiji&#257; usually refers to internal styles of Chinese martial arts
wàiji&#257; external styles of Chinese martial arts


----------



## Yoshiyahu

Okay Mr Sheng. I am sorry for the appearance of Hostility. I veiw hostility different than you. But since you feel that way I address Mr Jade differently. Actually. I got Chinese Alchemy from my studies. 

There is Sexual Alchemy of course. But I assume Jade would be more suited for Chinese Alchemy...There is another term such as Spiritual Alchemy. But all of those fall under Chinese Alchemy...An he is Jade Alchemy...lol..Anyway I get your point very good. Thank you please share more of your thoughts and views?






Xue Sheng said:


> Before I go further I need to say this post appears to be getting a bit hostile (ex Mr. Chinese Alchemy) but maybe I am getting the wrong impression. However to the point what JadecloudAlchemist said in his last post is fact not opinion if you are honestly looking at this form a Chinese perspective which is where Qi study came from. For example Shen translates to spirit and to a Chinese person spirit does not mean soul. To define spirit as soul is most definitely a Western interpretation, NOT Chinese.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank You :asian:
> 
> That one right there confuses more Westerners and makes them take it down a spiritual path it was never meant to go down.
> 
> Shen = Spirit (NOT soul)
> Jing = Essence
> Qi = Energy
> 
> Qi is not be spirit or Shen in Qigong, CMA or Traditional Chinese Medicine, although Shen does control Qi, it is not Qi and Shen is not soul
> 
> Thinking in the Chinese terminology with the Chinese definition shen is what keeps you alive and it is what controls Qi, when your Shen is strong your Qi is strong. The root of the Shen is your mind, Yi (aka intention) again not spiritual and not soul
> 
> Qi come from converting Jing from the food you eat and the air you breathe and there is Jing you inherited from your parents.
> 
> So going by the Chinese definition used in CMA, TCM and Qigong, qi is not spirit it is shen and shen is not soul
> 
> And as stated there are various types of Jing but it is the original Jing that you inherit form your parents that is the most important, it is the base, if you will, to grow on. This is what must be protected to maintain health and to live a long life. You cannot increase this, what qigong does is improve the quality of it.
> 
> And lastly
> 
> This could be a difference between Cantonese and Mandarin but looking at it from a Mandarin POV
> 
> nèiji&#257; usually refers to internal styles of Chinese martial arts
> wàiji&#257; external styles of Chinese martial arts


----------

