# Hsing-I and Ba-Gua Zhang for combat??



## Brother John (Feb 13, 2003)

Just wondering if I could get some feedback on these: 
how would a Ba-Gua or Hsing-I expert apply thier art in a combat situation? I know that this is a very simplistic question, but what I'm getting at is what would differentiate these two when applied? I understand that they are very closely related and both primarily internal arts... not to say that "internal" automatically denotes lack of applicability...
I should just shut up and wait for those that DO have a clue to respond.
THanks
Your Brother
John


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## Matt Stone (Feb 13, 2003)

The differences lie in the approach each art has to getting its techniques to strike the opponent.

Xingyi splits the attacker's incoming force, or splits his defense to allow for a driving, penetrating step to go through or over the attacker's defenses.

Bagua evades the attacker's incoming force, moving to a safe location and striking into the open space of the attacker's undefended side.

Xingyi drives in, through and over, taking the real estate you _thought_ you owned...

Bagua runs around you and tags you in the a$$ before the attacker even notices that you got out of his way...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Zujitsuka (Feb 13, 2003)

Tim Cartmell has interesting insights into Baguazhang and Xingyiquan.  Check out his site at http://www.shenwu.com

Peace & blessings,


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## lhommedieu (Feb 15, 2003)

There is always a tendency to think of "internal" arts as lacking in credibility.  As usual, the effectiveness of the art is based on the knowledge of the art.

I've been hit, kicked, thrown, and locked by proficient Xing Yi and Ba Gua practitioners.  Both arts are foundational insofar as the emphasis is on learning proper body mechanics rather than techniques.  If you've ever been hit or thrown by someone who knows what they're doing, you become a believer for life.

A popular description (I believe it appears in "Asian Fighting Arts" by Don Draeger and Robert W. Smith) is that Tai Qi Quan is like a rubber ball - it will absorb you and then bounce you out; Xing Yi Quan is like a steel ball - it just rolls right over you; Ba Gua Zhang is like a spinning steel mesh ball - it grabs whatever is offered, spins it around and spits it out on the other side.  From personal experience I would say that this is fairly true.

Tim Cartmell is indeed an excellent source for learning more about Xing Yi Quan.  One of the better Xing Yi and Ba Gua practioners alive today in the United States is Vince Black of the North American Tang Shou Tao in Phoenx, AZ.  Tom Bisio is a noted Xing Yi and Ba Gua practioner in New York, NY.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Brother John (Feb 17, 2003)

> There is always a tendency to think of "internal" arts as lacking in credibility.


Please understand, I don't hold the view that the "internal" arts can't be externally destructive... not in the least. 
Thank you for passing along the "ball" descriptions of these arts, that's a very interesting way of puting it.

-Salute-

Your Brother
John


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Just wondering if I could get some feedback on these:
> how would a Ba-Gua or Hsing-I expert apply thier art in a combat situation? I know that this is a very simplistic question, but what I'm getting at is what would differentiate these two when applied? I understand that they are very closely related and both primarily internal arts... not to say that "internal" automatically denotes lack of applicability...
> I should just shut up and wait for those that DO have a clue to respond.
> ...



This is going to be an extremely over simplified example but here goes anyway. I don't think I would classify them as "internal" at all. In fact I have yet to see an Chinese art that was totally internal in the granola head sense of the word. Most, if not all, have some very nasty applications.

Xingyi makes up the 12 animal forms in Chinese Kung Fu and can be compared to Okianwan Karate in many ways. especially since much of karate came from some form of Xingyi.

Bagua is basically the application of Taichi techniques. Please dont rip that statement apart since I am over simplifying here. Bagua is a seriously complex art and any explanation given over the Internet wont do it justice Im afraid.


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