# For those who don't think English is my first language



## PhotonGuy (Jan 26, 2018)

Some people on this forum have had the impression that english is not my first language. Well, as a matter of fact its my third. My first language is martial arts, my second language is math, so that would make english my third language.


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## donald1 (Jan 26, 2018)




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## Xue Sheng (Jan 26, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some people on this forum have had the impression that english is not my first language. Well, as a matter of fact its my third. My first language is martial arts, my second language is math, so that would make english my third language.








Problem is....Martial Arts and Math are not languages....although an argument could be made for math

*language -* the method of human communication, either spoken or written, consisting of the use of words in a structured and conventional way


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 26, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some people on this forum have had the impression that english is not my first language. Well, as a matter of fact its my third. My first language is martial arts, my second language is math, so that would make english my third language.


You practiced martial arts and math before you learned English?

Spanish is my first language. I'm not fluent in it anymore, and English is my main language, but technically Spanish was my first language.


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## MA_Student (Jan 26, 2018)

Cool story bro


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## JR 137 (Jan 26, 2018)

I grew up speaking Armenian and English simultaneously.  My father and his side of the family are all immigrants and none of them spoke a word of English to me until I was around high school age.  My mother and her side only spoke English to me.

Which is my first language?

I’d say English, as that’s the language I was formally educated in, and I’m not capable of having a highly technical conversation, such as science, math, etc., in Armenian.  I’d understand what’s being discussed, but I couldn’t use technical jargon.  

Sorry, I just had to contribute my insignificant information to this thread.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 26, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some people on this forum have had the impression that english is not my first language. Well, as a matter of fact its my third. My first language is martial arts, my second language is math, so that would make english my third language.



By that logic, I have Russian, Ukrainian, English, music, math, physics, literature, martial arts, and drawing as my languages. But I don't think that's quite it works. Although... like others here, I can see how math can count as a language - because it can be used for communicating certain ideas without much ambiguity. 

If we follow Dictionary.com and define language as something used for communication, I would like to get a better explanation what exactly could be communicated through a martial art and how? You know... other than the obvious, "If you want to beat me up, I don't recommend it."


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 26, 2018)

Well.....I can count to 10 in 6 languages...... does that mean I can speak them......hmmmm.....SURE...why not


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## JR 137 (Jan 26, 2018)

I pride myself in learning swear words in as many languages as possible.  I need to know when someone’s insulting me.  I know the worst phrases in at least a dozen languages.  I learned them from friends who are native speakers, not the internet.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 26, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I pride myself in learning swear words in as many languages as possible.  I need to know when someone’s insulting me.  I know the worst phrases in at least a dozen languages.  I learned them from friends who are native speakers, not the internet.


It's actually a great point of inner conflict for me. People keep asking me to teach them Russian swear words, and I don't want to, because I feel bad about propagating the belief that Russians only know how to drink and swear.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 26, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I grew up speaking Armenian and English simultaneously.  My father and his side of the family are all immigrants and none of them spoke a word of English to me until I was around high school age.  My mother and her side only spoke English to me.
> 
> Which is my first language?
> 
> ...


I don't know any Armenian, sadly, but I do have a few Armenian recipes my dad brought home from his many travels as an Aeroflot pilot. Do you cook Armenian food at home? Their cuisine is truly amazing.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 26, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I pride myself in learning swear words in as many languages as possible.  I need to know when someone’s insulting me.  I know the worst phrases in at least a dozen languages.  I learned them from friends who are native speakers, not the internet.



There are some insults in North China that in the USA would not be all that insulting if they were insulting at all. In North China...it would get you punched in the head.


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## JR 137 (Jan 26, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> I don't know any Armenian, sadly, but I do have a few Armenian recipes my dad brought home from his many travels as an Aeroflot pilot. Do you cook Armenian food at home? Their cuisine is truly amazing.


Sadly I don’t cook much Armenian food.  I’d be the only one eating it.  And the stuff I really want takes pretty much all day to cook.

The only thing I semi regularly cook is shish kabob. I use my uncles’ recipe for pork and chicken.  It’s a work in progress.  It’s great until you eat my uncles’, then it’s just acceptable.


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## JR 137 (Jan 26, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> There are some insults in North China that in the USA would not be all that insulting if they were insulting at all. In North China...it would get you punched in the head.


I’ve found there are a lot of insults in other languages that either don’t translate very well/don’t make sense here, or are just not ready insulting here.  For example, a good Armenian insult literally translates as “dog’s protege” in English, and it doesn’t have a rough translation nor connotation of “son of a *****,” which would be an entirely different phrase in Armenian.  Equally and perhaps more insulting though.


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## JR 137 (Jan 26, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> It's actually a great point of inner conflict for me. People keep asking me to teach them Russian swear words, and I don't want to, because I feel bad about propagating the belief that Russians only know how to drink and swear.


I’ve met many people who didn’t want to teach me their insults.  I soften them up by asking how to say hello and how are you in their language.  After I’ve got those down pretty good, they usually teach me an insult or two as well


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## drop bear (Jan 26, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Problem is....Martial Arts and Math are not languages....although an argument could be made for math
> 
> *language -* the method of human communication, either spoken or written, consisting of the use of words in a structured and conventional way



His fist do the talking.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 27, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’ve found there are a lot of insults in other languages that either don’t translate very well/don’t make sense here, or are just not ready insulting here.  For example, a good Armenian insult literally translates as “dog’s protege” in English, and it doesn’t have a rough translation nor connotation of “son of a *****,” which would be an entirely different phrase in Armenian.  Equally and perhaps more insulting though.



Call a married man in Beijing a Turtle..... you just accused his wife of cheating on him and he is either to stupid to know or he knows and is ignoring it because he is not a real man.

Tell a man his sister is a Chicken....just called his sister a prostitute


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 27, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Sadly I don’t cook much Armenian food.  I’d be the only one eating it.  And the stuff I really want takes pretty much all day to cook.
> 
> The only thing I semi regularly cook is shish kabob. I use my uncles’ recipe for pork and chicken.  It’s a work in progress.  It’s great until you eat my uncles’, then it’s just acceptable.


I make a MEAN shish kabob - just ask @gpseymour . I use lamb and soak it with onions and vinegar for 24 hours prior to cooking. 

I also have my dad's recipe for rice pilaf - although it's from Uzbekistan. Central Asian recipes are somewhat different from the ones that come from the Caucasus region.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 27, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’ve found there are a lot of insults in other languages that either don’t translate very well/don’t make sense here, or are just not ready insulting here.  For example, a good Armenian insult literally translates as “dog’s protege” in English, and it doesn’t have a rough translation nor connotation of “son of a *****,” which would be an entirely different phrase in Armenian.  Equally and perhaps more insulting though.


We have a similar problem in Russian, but with terms of endearment more than with cusswords. For example, our terms of endearment include calling someone a little fish, a paw, or a berry.


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## granfire (Jan 28, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well.....I can count to 10 in 6 languages...... does that mean I can speak them......hmmmm.....SURE...why not


but in what language do you do math in?
I have tried counting in Japanese during workouts, but end up doing it in german, although it is a little striped these days...or adding up stuff.


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## Tames D (Jan 28, 2018)

I find that lobsters have a language all their own when dipped into boiling water.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 28, 2018)

granfire said:


> but in what language do you do math in?
> I have tried counting in Japanese during workouts, but end up doing it in german, although it is a little striped these days...or adding up stuff.


I can do math in Russian and in English. I do thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, and heat transfer better in English.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 28, 2018)

granfire said:


> but in what language do you do math in?
> I have tried counting in Japanese during workouts, but end up doing it in german, although it is a little striped these days...or adding up stuff.



I'll never tell


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 28, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'll never tell


You know... that said... both Carl Sagan (in _Contact_) and Pierre Boulle (in _Planet of the Apes_) both argued math could be used as language of its own.


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## Hyoho (Jan 28, 2018)

The first thing I found out was that to be proficient in Martial arts I had to learn Japanese. If you study Japanese arts your knowledge will be very superficial without it.


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## Anarax (Jan 28, 2018)

My languages include C++, C#,  Python, PHP, Java, Javascript, english, very bad english, southern and redneck. Yes, southern and redneck *are *different.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> You know... that said... both Carl Sagan (in _Contact_) and Pierre Boulle (in _Planet of the Apes_) both argued math could be used as language of its own.



When I was in college and I was math major for a period of time...all the way to Calc 3 and Linear algebra...I too thought math could be a language and possibly a universal one....but then my brain burned out and I left that area of study......

Also prior to my brain shutdown and reboot I also saw great similarities between Buddhist philosophy and Quantum Physics....... but alas my brain rebooted


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 29, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> There are some insults in North China that in the USA would not be all that insulting if they were insulting at all. In North China...it would get you punched in the head.



There are also unintended insults.  I think I have told the story of the young and attractive, but somewhat overweight lady I met in Vietnam.  We had been talking in both English and Vietnamese.  She said something and I answered "Yes Ma'am."  She got very angry and when I asked what I had said, she would only tell me I knew very well what I said.

As soon as I got back to my billets, I looked up the English "ma'am" transliterated to Vietnamese.  One of the first translations was "fat."  Never too old to learn.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> When I was in college and I was math major for a period of time...all the way to Calc 3 and Linear algebra...I too thought math could be a language and possibly a universal one....but then my brain burned out and I left that area of study......
> 
> Also prior to my brain shutdown and reboot I also saw great similarities between Buddhist philosophy and Quantum Physics....... but alas my brain rebooted


I can commiserate. I was a mechanical engineering major - one of the highest dropped-out-of majors in America due to amount of math and homework.  I survived mine, but I can't say it was easy.

There is something to be said for math as language - I tutored Numerical Analysis to deaf students. I didn't know any sign language, so, for our tutoring sessions, we always grabbed a room with a white board or a chalk board, and just covered the whole thing in equations, matrices, derivations, etc. It worked! One of my students went from D to B, and another one - from C to A-.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

Anarax said:


> My languages include C++, C#,  Python, PHP, Java, Javascript, english, very bad english, southern and redneck. Yes, southern and redneck *are *different.


Does Visual Basic for Applications count?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> There are also unintended insults.  I think I have told the story of the young and attractive, but somewhat overweight lady I met in Vietnam.  We had been talking in both English and Vietnamese.  She said something and I answered "Yes Ma'am."  She got very angry and when I asked what I had said, she would only tell me I knew very well what I said.
> 
> As soon as I got back to my billets, I looked up the English "ma'am" transliterated to Vietnamese.  One of the first translations was "fat."  Never too old to learn.



In parts of China if someone does something that you think is crazy, you can say fēngle (crazy). But never say Nǐ fēngle (You are crazy)...that too could get you punched in the head


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> In parts of China if someone does something that you think is crazy, you can say fēngle (crazy). But never say Nǐ fēngle (You are crazy)...that too could get you punched in the head


I am still trying to sort out how, in British English, "bollocks" is bad but "dog's bollocks" is good.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

Also, can somebody explain to me, what is so amazing about "bee's knees"? Why is it, when something good, it's considered "bee's knees"? Don't get me wrong - I like bees. I have nothing against bees. But why are their knees considered so fabulous. I can see how a pair of attractive human knees can be awesome - especially in fishnet hose (and yes, I said "human" and not "female" because I don't want to leave out Patrick Swayze, Wesley Snipes, and John Leguizamo in _To Wong Fu, thanks for everything, Julie Newmar!_) But bee's knees? Do bees wear fishnet hose? Do they even have knees?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 29, 2018)

I've actually been meaning to write a short essay on conceptualizing martial arts study in terms of learning a language. It's a metaphorical point though, not literal. Maybe I can find to type that up later this week.


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 29, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've actually been meaning to write a short essay on conceptualizing martial arts study in terms of learning a language. It's a metaphorical point though, not literal. Maybe I can find to type that up later this week.



I look forward to that since I can't 'conceptualize martial arts study in terms of learning a language,' even metaphorically.  What part of martial arts would be verbs (where we think of action), nouns (things), or adverbs (modifying verbs), etc.  Looking forward to it.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've actually been meaning to write a short essay on conceptualizing martial arts study in terms of learning a language. It's a metaphorical point though, not literal. Maybe I can find to type that up later this week.





oftheherd1 said:


> I look forward to that since I can't 'conceptualize martial arts study in terms of learning a language,' even metaphorically.  What part of martial arts would be verbs (where we think of action), nouns (things), or adverbs (modifying verbs), etc.  Looking forward to it.



Just so you both know...I am having one of those days where your posts are making say....


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've actually been meaning to write a short essay on conceptualizing martial arts study in terms of learning a language. It's a metaphorical point though, not literal. Maybe I can find to type that up later this week.


That actually sounds fascinating. As a translator, I regularly spend time hanging between two languages. So, the idea of creating a conceptual analogy between the study of martial arts and the study of languages sounds really interesting.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just so you both know...I am having one of those days where your posts are making say....


I could recite for you some Finnish folklore I stumbled into while translating a book by a mid-19th century Russian author. Will that help?


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## granfire (Jan 29, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Also, can somebody explain to me, what is so amazing about "bee's knees"? Why is it, when something good, it's considered "bee's knees"? Don't get me wrong - I like bees. I have nothing against bees. But why are their knees considered so fabulous. I can see how a pair of attractive human knees can be awesome - especially in fishnet hose (and yes, I said "human" and not "female" because I don't want to leave out Patrick Swayze, Wesley Snipes, and John Leguizamo in _To Wong Fu, thanks for everything, Julie Newmar!_) But bee's knees? Do bees wear fishnet hose? Do they even have knees?


it's the rhyme, Alligator....See you later 
You'll know after a while, Crocodile....


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> I could recite for you some Finnish folklore I stumbled into while translating a book by a mid-19th century Russian author. Will that help?


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

granfire said:


> it's the rhyme, Alligator....See you later
> You'll know after a while, Crocodile....


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


>


Is that a no?


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## granfire (Jan 29, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


>


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## JR 137 (Jan 29, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Also, can somebody explain to me, what is so amazing about "bee's knees"? Why is it, when something good, it's considered "bee's knees"? Don't get me wrong - I like bees. I have nothing against bees. But why are their knees considered so fabulous. I can see how a pair of attractive human knees can be awesome - especially in fishnet hose (and yes, I said "human" and not "female" because I don't want to leave out Patrick Swayze, Wesley Snipes, and John Leguizamo in _To Wong Fu, thanks for everything, Julie Newmar!_) But bee's knees? Do bees wear fishnet hose? Do they even have knees?


Bee’s knees, cat’s pajamas, cat’s meow, etc.   Never understood why any of those are good.

Dog’s bollocks?  No idea why the dog’s bollocks are great, but bollocks are bad.  Speaking of dog’s bollocks... one of my favorites to read and hear - the mutt’s nuts.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Bee’s knees, cat’s pajamas, cat’s meow, etc.   Never understood why any of those are good.
> 
> Dog’s bollocks?  No idea why the dog’s bollocks are great, but bollocks are bad.  Speaking of dog’s bollocks... one of my favorites to read and hear - the mutt’s nuts.


This reminds me... in a fairly old Russian translation of Arthur Hailey's _Strong Medicine _some unfortunate translator interpreted "a**hole" as "donkey's belly button". Don't ask... I don't know what he was thinking.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Bee’s knees, cat’s pajamas, cat’s meow, etc.   Never understood why any of those are good.



P.S. Cat's pajamas? If I tried to put pajamas on either of my cats, they would murder me in my sleep.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> This reminds me... in a fairly old Russian translation of Arthur Hailey's _Strong Medicine _some unfortunate translator interpreted "a**hole" as "donkey's belly button". Don't ask... I don't know what he was thinking.



You should have seen some of the translation error in Beijing for the olympics. 
Please remove arms on escalator
Broken people bathroom
Go, Olimpic Go, China


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## granfire (Jan 29, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> This reminds me... in a fairly old Russian translation of Arthur Hailey's _Strong Medicine _some unfortunate translator interpreted "a**hole" as "donkey's belly button". Don't ask... I don't know what he was thinking.


That is hysterical though! 
I might have to steal that!


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> You should have seen some of the translation error in Beijing for the olympics.
> Please remove arms on escalator
> Broken people bathroom
> Go, Olimpic Go, China


Well duh! Where else do you remove arms if not on escalator? And where do you store your broken people? ;-)


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 29, 2018)

granfire said:


> That is hysterical though!
> I might have to steal that!


It is hysterical, but for me, as a translator who prides herself on the knowledge of idiom in both languages of choice, it's also a bit cringe-worthy.


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## granfire (Jan 29, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> It is hysterical, but for me, as a translator who prides herself on the knowledge of idiom in both languages of choice, it's also a bit cringe-worthy.


well, that, too.
But hilariously funny!
should fit in nicely with using Oedipus as swear...


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 30, 2018)

granfire said:


> well, that, too.
> But hilariously funny!
> should fit in nicely with using Oedipus as swear...


Using Oedipus as swear? Is that a thing? I mean... how many people actually know who Oedipus is? With the decline in education quality these days, wouldn't it be totally lost on like 70% of the population?


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## granfire (Jan 30, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Using Oedipus as swear? Is that a thing? I mean... how many people actually know who Oedipus is? With the decline in education quality these days, wouldn't it be totally lost on like 70% of the population?


hence the ease of use if I can remember it...


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2018)

对于那些认为英语是我的第一语言的人来说。你是对的
Duìyú nàxiē rènwéi yīngyǔ shì wǒ de dì yī yǔyán de rén lái shuō. Nǐ shì duì de
(For those who think English is my first language. You're right)


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## Hyoho (Jan 30, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> That actually sounds fascinating. As a translator, I regularly spend time hanging between two languages. So, the idea of creating a conceptual analogy between the study of martial arts and the study of languages sounds really interesting.



Doing translation work I find that some sometimes its best to leave some words it the original language with a short (sometimes long) explanation of the roots of that word. Translating into English, one of the most bastardized languages has draw backs as you can manipulate a word to mean something entirely different. This is why many wordsmiths that have never even practiced an art give us some strange versions and variations.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 30, 2018)

Hyoho said:


> Doing translation work I find that some sometimes its best to leave some words it the original language with a short (sometimes long) explanation of the roots of that word. Translating into English, one of the most bastardized languages has draw backs as you can manipulate a word to mean something entirely different. This is why many wordsmiths that have never even practiced an art give us some strange versions and variations.


Ugh... I know what you mean. It's a constant debate between providing adequate explanations and distracting the reader with overly long footnotes.


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## AngryHobbit (Jan 30, 2018)

Hyoho said:


> Doing translation work I find that some sometimes its best to leave some words it the original language with a short (sometimes long) explanation of the roots of that word. Translating into English, one of the most bastardized languages has draw backs as you can manipulate a word to mean something entirely different. This is why many wordsmiths that have never even practiced an art give us some strange versions and variations.


Might I ask what type of translation you do? And from which languages?


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 14, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Problem is....Martial Arts and Math are not languages....although an argument could be made for math
> 
> *language -* the method of human communication, either spoken or written, consisting of the use of words in a structured and conventional way


I've heard of some people refer to the martial arts as a language although you're right, if taken by its technical definition martial arts is not a language.


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