# "Discussion" on And We Were Grateful for What We Had



## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *I can't speak for anything that may be ciculating that sounds similar, but I WROTE THE COLUMN POSTED TO THIS THREAD.  I don't paste things people send me via e-mail. *



Similar?

You must either be a plagarist or have a bad memory ...

I've been using parts of your post word for word for years ... I even thought I wrote some of it myself!


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 31, 2003)

Look, moron, I wrote that column.  The ideas it contains may not be terribly original -- all of us have used the phrase, "And we were grateful for what we had" -- but don't ever accuse me of plagiarism.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 31, 2003)

The concept of "When I was Your Age" has been around forever.  Hell, Weird Al even wrote a song about it.  Bill Cosby did a whole sketch on it.  (I remember killed a "grisley bear with my loose leaf notebook" fondly.  )

I've seen similar in writing.  Its entirely possible that a line here n there are similar or even the same.  It happens. 

That said, accusing someone of plagarisms a bit heavy.  Unless theres proof, its one opinion vs another. 

I've known Ken for years.  I've seen Phils writings around for a long time and his reputations good.  I don't doubt Ken saw something similar somewhere, and I don't doubt Phil wrote this as an original work. You're both good guys in my opinion.

Now, we can argue, or we can enjoy the memories of our childhoods.

Lets enjoy the memories huh?  Otherwise, I'll have to get 'the belt'.  (now thats another Cosby bit I remember fondly.) 

Now, shake hands, apologize and lets get back to the rememberences of our youth....


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 31, 2003)

I will gladly accept an apology from Ken, if he'll offer one.  Accusing a professional writer of deliberate plagiarism is like spitting in a man's face -- you had better not do it unless you're ready to get slapped.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Look, moron, I wrote that column.  The ideas it contains may not be terribly original -- all of us have used the phrase, "And we were grateful for what we had" -- but don't ever accuse me of plagiarism. *



.. word for word.  Sure, a couple of sentences I hadn't heard before, but most of it isn't similar in "concept."  I knew most of the freakin' punch lines before I finished reading it.

Let's face it -- it's almost impossible to be original with this as its been beaten to death in all possible permutations.  It's like someone who hears a song as a kid and then "writes" it years later with a few changes unknowingly.

Stix and stones, dude.  If you were proud of that article or blog or whatever it was, sorry to burst your bubble.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *I will gladly accept an apology from Ken, if he'll offer one.  Accusing a professional writer of deliberate plagiarism is like spitting in a man's face -- you had better not do it unless you're ready to get slapped. *



... I'll apologize for ruffling your feathers a bit, but if you read my post, I did not come out and accuse you of plagarism.


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## arnisador (Jul 31, 2003)

Plagiarism is a serious accusation, esp. with respect to a professional writer. Do I understand you to be saying that you meant that the basic framework of the story--the idea itself--was widely used (e.g. Dana Carvey's "Grumpy Old Man" on Saturday Night Live), or that, as you said, you have seen it and used it before "word for word" where it was attributed to another author? The former claim is obvious, but the latter claim merits some documentation.


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 31, 2003)

It's not a matter of me being proud or of you "bursting my bubble," Ken.  It's a question of not appreciating being accused of stealing, misappropriating, or otherwise dishonestly copying something when I did, in fact, sit down and write that column myself along with several others that I sent in a batch to the publisher of a newsletter who runs them.

If you're not going to apologize in earnest, don't pretend to do so.  If you want to be an obnoxious jerk, that's fine.  If you want to make an enemy of me, consider your goal accomplished.


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## OULobo (Jul 31, 2003)

Whoa! It ain't plagerism if you don't have a copy of the original. No proof, no plagerism. In colleges, that would be cause for expullsion, so I can see the reason for Phil's anger. Especially as he is a professional writer. I'd say post a supposed original copy of what was plagerized with the author's name or contact and let the researchers do the rest, but that is a heavy claim to make without written proof. The burdon of proof falls on the acuser.


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 31, 2003)

Well, according to Ken, he didn't make such an accusation, even if he did.

He does not seem to understand why I found what he posted to be personally insulting.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *
> If you're not going to apologize in earnest, don't pretend to do so.  If you want be an obnoxious jerk, that's fine.  If you want to make an enemy of me, consider your goal accomplished. *



It's a shame, Phil.  I find your writing to be at least interesting, based on your website, and I like your views on various things.

But it's obvious I stepped on your toes, and I'm more concerned about how you are taking it than about being taken the wrong way.

Based on my knowledge and recollection, the specific content of most of the specifc quips in the article are not original.  I'm not going to lie and tell you I don't by retracting my statement.  I've said the remote vs. uphill both ways thing word for word hundreds of times before today.  Did I accuse you of plagairising me?  

The point is that the article you wrote may be suitable for publication somewhere, and they will accept your name on it as the person who submitted it, but if you think for a moment that someone else saying all the same things in pretty much the same way is going to be paying you royalties, you can forget it.

If you are a professional writer with integrety, you will at least not stomp around with a "this is mine!" mentality with such a thing so much that people calling you on it is a personal affront to you.

I don't deny you sat down with pen and paper (or keyboard) to write it.  I won't say you purposely did that, but it would be wrong not to assume you are human and capable of such error, as even professional writers are.  

But as all the other posters here agree, it's been done to death, and if you are making this out to be original to the point of DEFENDING it against anyone, you need to take a breather intead of offense.

I've come off insulting and accusatory, and I'm sorry.  But you've come off presumptuous about originality.  Please tell me you're a better writer than that.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Well, according to Ken, he didn't make such an accusation, even if he did.
> 
> He does not seem to understand why I found what he posted to be personally insulting. *



You're right.  I should know better.  But let me let you all in on a secret.  I'VE been accused of plagarism, and it cost me more than face in some forum.  I was banned without proof from publication in my College literature publication for four years!

Nobody handles these things the same, and I should have thought twice.

But I admit (without proof) if is possible one of my works (the one in question, which WAS published under my name) was something I heard on the radio in my sleep or in classroom years earlier.  

Phil ... I'm very seruious and not being sarcastic in this:

If you have taken offense, I accept the responsibility for that, man to man.  I kneel before you eyes closed, and though I will agree to disagree, I wish you no ill will, and you are welcome to a single hit to my back with a bamboo staff in compensation and as a sign of good will.

But you won't get two.

Do you accept?


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 31, 2003)

I am not presuming _anything_, Ken.  I've stated several times that the ideas contained in the column are not terribly original.  You, however, accused me of _not writing the column_, which is factually incorrect.  I know, because _I was there_.

You have insulted my integrity and do not seem to grasp why I would _be insulted_ as a result.  You didn't "step on my toes," so stop using deliberately belittling language in an attempt to sidestep responsiblity for what you _did_ do.  You accused me of _plagiarism_.  You may try to claim you did not, but that is what you did.



> The point is that the article you wrote may be suitable for publication somewhere, and they will accept your name on it as the person who submitted it, but if you think for a moment that someone else saying all the same things in pretty much the same way is going to be paying you royalties, you can forget it.



Don't be a deliberate ***.  I have implied nothing of the kind.  I have simply _taken offense_ at being called, essentially, _dishonest_.



> If you are a professional writer with integrety, you will at least not stomp around with a "this is mine!" mentality with such a thing so much that people calling you on it is a personal affront to you.



I _am_ a professional writer with integrity -- which means that when someone says, "Hey, this isn't exactly full of original ideas," I'll be the first person to say, "You're absolutely right" -- which I _did_ in this thread.

What I _won't_ do is sit around while someone says, "Gosh, you're either a plagiarist or you have a bad memory" -- two things that mean the same thing -- without taking offense at the insult contained within the post.



> *I don't deny you sat down with pen and paper (or keyboard) to write it.*  [emphasis added]



Well, I'm glad you finally admit that.  That was my whole point all along.



> I won't say you purposely did that, but it would be wrong not to assume you are human and capable of such error, as even professional writers are.



What "error" would that be?  Writing something that has been thought before?  That's not an "error" by any definition of the word "error" with which I'm familiar.  "Error" implies a mistake.  Do you think I am not aware that these are old ideas to which anyone of the same age group can relate?



> But as all the other posters here agree, it's been done to death



Saying "it's been done to death" and making accusations of plagiarism are not the same thing.



> ...and if you are making this out to be original to the point of DEFENDING it against anyone, you need to take a breather intead of offense.



You still don't get it, do you?  I don't take offense when someone says, "This isn't all that original."  I *do* take offense _when someone accuses me of plagiarism._  Those are two entirely different things.




> I've come off insulting and accusatory, and I'm sorry.  But you've come off presumptuous about originality.  Please tell me you're a better writer than that.



No, you're not sorry -- or you wouldn't set up false arguments in which I must either agree with your position, nebulous though it may be, or be admitting by default that I'm not a "better writer than that."

You made an insulting and unfounded accusation of plagiarism.  Rather than apologize earnestly for it, you're trying to weasel out of it by ignoring things I've already said and deliberately misintrepreting statements I've already made to this thread.

I've never said there aren't things written that are similar.

I've never said the column was full of original ideas -- in fact, I said just the opposite.

I've never claimed to invent any of the concepts on which the humor of the column is based.

What I *HAVE* said is that I wrote the column, that I did not paste it from an e-mail I received, and that I resent being accused of plagiarism.

What part of that is so difficult for you to understand?


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## kkbb (Jul 31, 2003)

What I thought was a nice thread where people can share their nice memories... has as usual degraded into mud slinging.... WHO GIVES A FLYING CRAP! who the original writer of those lines were...they touched off some nice memories for me and a few others... 
SO...

KEN....SCREW OFF!!!!!!

:soapbox:     :angry:        :-offtopic


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 31, 2003)

We cross-posted.



> Do you accept?



Yes.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 31, 2003)

*Admin Note:*

"Discussion" of the originality, etc of this topic has been split off.


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## Ken JP Stuczynski (Jul 31, 2003)

I posted a comment as an unwelcome "heard it too many times before" critic, and that was inappropriate.  I never meant to go so off-topic -- it was just an ill-placed comment that I took further offense to Phil's reaction, based on a personal problem of my own.  Either way, I was out of line -- I was wrong.

I would like to apologize to all of you who valued Phil's article.


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