# Five year old is a first dan black belt...



## Ceicei (Oct 12, 2009)

Ummmm...  See the CNN article.  This came out today,

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/10/08/karate.black.belt.five/index.html

- Ceicei


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## terryl965 (Oct 12, 2009)

Just another reason people believe a Martial Art is just babysitting, I mean this is a disgrace to me and all my BB that I have trained over the years.


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## Gordon Nore (Oct 12, 2009)

Two thoughts...



Why is a five-year-old practising _anything_ for two hours a day, and
"Mummy, what's a _dan_?"


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## Ceicei (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm wondering:  Is a black belt based on memorizing 15 different katas and and using weapons?  What actually defines a black belt master? 

Two quotes below from the article:


> To gain her black belt, Varsha had to learn up to 15 different katas. A kata is a sequence of complicated karate moves. Varsha can punch, kick and wield different weapons: the Chinese stick, which is almost as big as she is, and a nunchuk, two short sticks connected by a metal chain.





> She is a black belt first dan, or grade, and there are 10 grades in total. She is already a mini master but if she makes it to second dan she can start teaching -- just like her father.



- Ceicei


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## Blindside (Oct 12, 2009)

Awesome, she must be such a prodigy, I can't wait 'till she is 7 and a 2nd degree, then she can teach me awesome death moves.  Sign me up!


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## arnisador (Oct 12, 2009)

This is just PR for the school.

She's a black belt, I'm a black belt...I challenge her to a match. She can use the Chinese stick if she wants.


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## K831 (Oct 12, 2009)

Children should be on a different grading or ranking system, something that lets them track their progression, excel and reach goals, without marginalizing the whole thing. 

I am sure she worked hard and is doing well. She is probably athletic. Sounds like her dad is a martial arts instructor, maybe they do a lot of the practicing together, cool. Unfortunately a first degree five year old does marginalize the rank. 

This is my own experience and thoughts, but I thought a black belt meant you had internalized the material to such a degree that you could realistically and consistently USE IT TO DEFEND YOURSELF in a pretty serious way. As a kid I remember the utter respect we had for those BB in our school, not stupid bow 24-7 to them respect but genuine "I know he can kick a$$" respect. 

Many BB I meet these days couldn't kick anyones a$$...


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## Big Don (Oct 12, 2009)

Shame on this kid's teacher.


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 12, 2009)

:bs1:


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## grydth (Oct 12, 2009)

She began her study in utero.... you should see the kicks poor mom took when she was pregnant......

Wonder if she studied at the famed Golden Dragon Dojo.....:burp:


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## David43515 (Oct 12, 2009)

I read the story about an hour ago and knew someone would mention it here. When I see things like this and how vastly the belt requirements differ from style to style or school to school, I`m reminded that most of the old masters we looked up to from the old days never had any belt ranking at all.

Chojun Miyagi was awarded an honorary bLackbelt from the Budokan as a sign of respect, but the people who awarded it didn`t practice Karate at all. Gichin Funakoshi was awarded 10th dan _postumously, by his own students._ The Japanese love to grade things, it`s in the culture. My wife and daughter are 4th dan and first dan respectively.....in caligraphy. My neighbor proudly told me when he got his 2nd dan......in noodle-making.

Kind of puts it all in perspective.


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## Tames D (Oct 12, 2009)

grydth said:


> Wonder if she studied at the famed Golden Dragon Dojo.....:burp:


 
I may be wrong, but I believe she earned her BB rank at 'Twin Fist Martial Arts' in Texas.


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## ATC (Oct 12, 2009)

OK I'll even admit that 5 is just too young. I have seen some awesome 10 year olds that I would have to say were good enough to be Jr. BB, but never 5.

And even the article pointed out that she had no confidence because she spoke so softly. We teach to be confident and speak up and own what you say, if you are going to say it, say it with confidence. If she could not do this simple thing then I have to say no.


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## Xinglu (Oct 12, 2009)

5 y/o BB.  That says it all right there.  Now every needy parent will be demanding a BB with their happy meals!


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## MJS (Oct 12, 2009)

Karate....kind of a generic term.  I wonder what art she studies.  Regardless of what it is, that school, the teachers and anything associated with them smells of MCDOJOISM!!!!  And people wonder why so many think that the martial arts is a joke!  Its **** like this, and I'd be ashamed, if I studied the same art she does.  

ZERO value in the black belt.  5yrs old!! Please!  Give me a break!  I dont care how talented she supposedly is, 5 is way too young.  What the hell did the inst. do, promote her every other day?


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## shesulsa (Oct 13, 2009)

*sigh*


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## Bruno@MT (Oct 13, 2009)

grydth said:


> She began her study in utero.... you should see the kicks poor mom took when she was pregnant......
> 
> Wonder if she studied at the famed Golden Dragon Dojo.....:burp:



I know this was tongue in cheek, but my oldest girl kicked so hard in the uterus that my wife had bruised ribs that hurt for 3 years. Only now is the pain starting to fade.

During labor, I had to press my hands just below the ribs to keep the baby from doing real damage. She was kicking so hard that you could actually see feet shaped bulges right below the ribs. Even the 45 year old midwife said she'd never seen it as bad as that. The baby literally came kicking and screaming. And she hasn't slowed her pace yet


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## Cirdan (Oct 13, 2009)

How the **** do you pressure test a five year old to the level of 1. Dan???


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> How the **** do you pressure test a five year old to the level of 1. Dan???


 
You don't.  Reason being because instructors like hers, are more interested in the almighty $$ and quantity of black belts running around, vs. the quality of black belts running around.

Their school motto: "Welcome to our school.  The home of the 5yr old black belt.  We also give fries and coke when you reach 1st degree too!"


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## Grenadier (Oct 13, 2009)

Ladies and gents, I think we can all discuss this topic, without having to resort to personal attacks here.  Thus, I'm going to have to put on the "mod hat and state this:


_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*_
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## rmclain (Oct 13, 2009)

Besides diminishing the public perception of a black belt, or revealing the quality a "black belt" represents to her instructor...

I'm impressed that a 5 year old is able to have the attention span to do anything for 2 hours a day.  I am hopeful that she learns the lesson that hard work does have rewards. Could provide a great life-lesson at a very young age and set the standard for her life. What a great opportunity for her and her family.

R. McLain


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2009)

rmclain said:


> I'm impressed that a 5 year old is able to have the attention span to do anything for 2 hours a day.
> R. McLain


 
Well, that I do agree with.  Many of the 5yr olds that I used to teach had the attention span of a fly.  Of course, there were those that did pay attention, but they were often outnumbered by those that didn't.  So, that being said, I give her at least that much credit.


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## Cirdan (Oct 13, 2009)

I got this scene stuck in my mind now... a horde of 5 year old ninjas bouncing along the rooftops like in that anime Ninja Scroll


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## shesulsa (Oct 13, 2009)

The instructor is the girls *father* - that says a lot. And he got her nicely exploited so she can see the world, too. Isn't that precious?  :rpo:


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## donjitsu2 (Oct 13, 2009)

Ceicei said:


> Ummmm... See the CNN article. This came out today,
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/10/08/karate.black.belt.five/index.html
> 
> - Ceicei


 
This is one of the reasons people don't take TMA seriously. Absurd.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 13, 2009)

Ceicei said:


> Ummmm... See the CNN article. This came out today,
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/10/08/karate.black.belt.five/index.html
> 
> - Ceicei


Okay, so she has a black belt. 

In Karate.

Someone else commented that they do not say what style of karate, so it could be anything from Goju Ryu to Taekwondo, as most people use the term karate for pretty much everything that is not specifically Chinese. The it is all Kung fu.

I have only one question which came to me as I read the comment that she can teach at second dan: How old does she have to be to get second dan?

Over on one of the youth BB threads in the TKD section, the subject of belts being used to bracket competition came up, and used in that regard, you have one set of issues, and a case could be made that so long as everyone knows that it is *just* for bracketing competition, then it is not so hideously bad.

But entering the 5-7 year old division at the local karate tournament is not her aspiration. Her aspiriation is to teach. Six and seven year olds are incapable of effectively running a class, so if she is eligible in whatever system to be second *dan* and to teach, then I think I will have to go all Twin Fist on this one and call BS.

If, on the other hand, she has to wait until she is, say sixteen, to test for any dan grade beyond first, then I can live with that. It is not what I would consider ideal or even proper, but I can tolerate it.

To reiterate what I have said in other threads on the subject, a black belt only holds substantive meaning within the school of issuance. If you believe otherwise, then you are fooling yourself. Yes, people outside of your school may respect you for it, and it will tell them, if nothing else, that you have been training for at *least *two years in *something*. Beyond that, it tells nothing. 

I do not measure my rank, its meaning, or its value by what is done in some school down the road, in another state, or in another country. I know exactly what it means: that I have learned and am proficient in the colored belt material at Korean Martial Arts, inc. in Taekwondo and Kendo. After I hopefully pass my hapkido BB test, whenever that happens, it will mean that I have learned and am proficient in the colored belt material in that too. In *that* school, to the standards of GM Kim. Period.

Black belts are essentially the equivallent of a high school diploma. Some h/s diplomas are looked upon more favorably than others because the colleges know that some high schools have higher standards than others.

Thus it is more important *who* put the belt on you than what color it is. 

Daniel


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## Live True (Oct 13, 2009)

Has anyone else noticed her facial expression and form in the picture with the article?  

Besides the soft, shy commentary noted in a previous post...this says a lot about her fundamental attitude.  It is my belief that a BB should have confidence in themselves and be able to display, what we call in Uechi, Mushin (no mind).  I'm not seeing any example of that in the limited scope of this article.    I'm willing to allow for posed photography, but this doesn't seem the aspect of a confident, experienced karate practitioner.

I admire her dedication and she may have true skills.  However, I'm not sure which is sadder, the impact this has on the martial arts community or the impact it has on her (or hasn't had, as far as apparent self-confidence goes).:disgust:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 13, 2009)

Live True said:


> Has anyone else noticed her facial expression and form in the picture with the article?
> 
> Besides the soft, shy commentary noted in a previous post...this says a lot about her fundamental attitude. It is my belief that a BB should have confidence in themselves and be able to display, what we call in Uechi, Mushin (no mind). I'm not seeing any example of that in the limited scope of this article. I'm willing to allow for posed photography, but this doesn't seem the aspect of a confident, experienced karate practitioner.
> 
> I admire her dedication and she may have true skills. However, I'm not sure which is sadder, the impact this has on the martial arts community or the impact it has on her (or hasn't had, as far as apparent self-confidence goes).:disgust:


You make very good points, Shana! 

And is any five year old even capable of *really* displaying uechi?

Daniel


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Okay, so she has a black belt.
> 
> In Karate.
> 
> ...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 13, 2009)

MJS said:


> People such as this inst. as well as any other inst. that hands out ranks to kids, is more concerned with the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ than anything else. I laugh when I see, "Well, Master A whos a 5th degree, Master B whos an 8th and Master C whos a 9th, all say that Joey is worthy of 2nd degree." I call serious BS on that. Of course they're going to say that...they dont give a **** about the kid, they give a **** about the cash..period.


Well, I think that it is pretty obvious that unless the school is running the kids program like a kids football league. In that case, it may not be just about money. But I think that if that *is* the case, it should be called "Karate league" and that there should be a specific competition black belt, that actually says, "Competition" on it. Once again, not ideal, but I can live with it.

As for the fifth, eighth, and ninth degree masters who say that the kid deserves it are probably also known for handing out belt candy in the MA community of their area. Those masters may be very competent practitioners themselves, but that really does not mean much; some very excellent practitioners have sold out the art for cash.  

Once again, having a belt from someone who is known to just hand them out is still a belt and may carry weight within an organization.  But you had better be prepared to show that you are worth it on your own merit, because having the belt from one of those guys will quite possibly be viewed as a strike against you.

Daniel


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, I think that it is pretty obvious that unless the school is running the kids program like a kids football league. In that case, it may not be just about money. But I think that if that *is* the case, it should be called "Karate league" and that there should be a specific competition black belt, that actually says, "Competition" on it. Once again, not ideal, but I can live with it.
> 
> As for the fifth, eighth, and ninth degree masters who say that the kid deserves it are probably also known for handing out belt candy in the MA community of their area. Those masters may be very competent practitioners themselves, but that really does not mean much; some very excellent practitioners have sold out the art for cash.
> 
> Daniel


 
If not for the cash, then I'd say at least for bragging rights.  I mean, imagine the look on Joeys face, when him and his mom walk into the Mcdojo and see 20 kids, all around the same age as Joey, all wearing black belts.  Joey gets so excited that he begs his mom to join.  The inst. emits this impression that "Yes Joey!!  You too can be a McDojoite and have one of those belts!" LOL!

All kidding aside though...unless the inst. was teaching at the community room at the local Y or town hall, chances are, he's doing it for the money.  

My apologies in advance, if my posts come across harsh.  This is just one of those topics that rubs me the wrong way.  I love the arts, I love the training, and I love the things that I've reaped from it.  Its sad when so many people ruin the arts with their selfish actions.  Thank God there're still some traditional schools out there, where you actually have to work for your belt.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 13, 2009)

MJS said:


> If not for the cash, then I'd say at least for bragging rights. I mean, imagine the look on Joeys face, when him and his mom walk into the Mcdojo and see 20 kids, all around the same age as Joey, all wearing black belts. Joey gets so excited that he begs his mom to join. The inst. emits this impression that "Yes Joey!! You too can be a McDojoite and have one of those belts!" LOL!
> 
> All kidding aside though...unless the inst. was teaching at the community room at the local Y or town hall, chances are, he's doing it for the money.
> 
> My apologies in advance, if my posts come across harsh. This is just one of those topics that rubs me the wrong way. I love the arts, I love the training, and I love the things that I've reaped from it. Its sad when so many people ruin the arts with their selfish actions. Thank God there're still some traditional schools out there, where you actually have to work for your belt.


Your posts do not seem harsh to me, but I am not a proponent of children wearing black belts, even for competition.

I *am* a proponent of the Kukkiwon's poom belt system, though I do feel that it is broken. But it *is* easily fixed. And the system is easilly adapted to any art that uses a belt system.

When an instructor gives a kid a BB for competition bracketing or for learning the colored belt material and wish to keep them around, they are doing the very thing that the poom was designed for. And there is a red/black poom belt for poom rank kids. 

The problem is two fold in that instructors put black belts on non-dan rank students and that at fifteen, with the filing of paperwork, all poom ranks convert to dans, thus creating fifteen year old third dans and subsequently, eighteen year old fourth dans.

The fix is fairly easy in my opinion. A simple three step process:

*1.* Have poom 1-4, with 4 being for age twelve to fourteen. 
*2.* Require poom grade students to wear a poom belt and penalize schools that ignore this requirement.
*3.* Any fifteen year old may test for first dan, but the 4th poom student should receive a test that is directed towards the non-competition related items. Poom ranks should *not* convert. 

By this point, he or she has already proven that they know their forms and can spar within the system, have plenty of endurance, and likely can break pretty darn well. So make their test a more technical/knowledge based test and focus on SD rather than competition sparring in the physical section. The only competition related material shoudl be to have the student spar an adult BB. 

From attaining first dan at fifteen, the normal time period between dans would then be enforced. Thus the student would be eligible to tesf for second dan at sixteen, third at eighteen, and fourth at twenty one, assuming that the student continues to train and is tested in that timeframe.

This way, they still have a competition bracket that keeps competition fair and ranks beyond first kyu for hard working tykes who stick with it, but the integrity of the dan rank and black belt is maintained.

Daniel


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## Stac3y (Oct 13, 2009)

Poor kid.


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## suicide (Oct 13, 2009)

who knows shes probably gifted and ahead of her time ? :redcaptur


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Your posts do not seem harsh to me, but I am not a proponent of children wearing black belts, even for competition.
> 
> I *am* a proponent of the Kukkiwon's poom belt system, though I do feel that it is broken. But it *is* easily fixed. And the system is easilly adapted to any art that uses a belt system.
> 
> ...


 
Explain this poom to me again please.  I"m assuming its a belt or belts that are given to kids that aren't at the BB age yet?  

As for the system that you describe...sounds good to me.  Of course, the thing is, is that the system seems to be so far gone, I'm not sure how it'd be fixed.  This would require some serious policing of the art.  Explain to me the 1-4 poom.  Will the child whos not ready for full BB yet, actually testing for each 1-4 poom?  So for ex...a 12yr old is ready for "BB" but technically not old enough.  So he tests for a poom 1.  He moves thru this process until he's old enough for full BB, lets say 16 for the sake of discussion.  He then tests for a full adult BB.  Am I correct on this?


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2009)

suicide said:


> who knows shes probably gifted and ahead of her time ? :redcaptur


 
Are you being serious here, sarcastic, or following your usual protocol for posting, and just posting some random stuff, for the sake of making a post?  Either way, who the hell cares if she's gifted.  Fact of the matter is, she's too damn young for a BB.  

I'm going to say something that the nutrider group usually says...I want to see video of this girl.  I want to see some sort of live proof that she performs the way its claimed, otherwise I called BS on her, her inst. and the school she trains at.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 13, 2009)

thats just friggin TACKY

and i might add, given my well known stance on THAT subject, you are just abusing sarcasm now...



Tames D said:


> I may be wrong, but I believe she earned her BB rank at 'Twin Fist Martial Arts' in Texas.


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> thats just friggin TACKY
> 
> and i might add, given my well known stance on THAT subject, you are just abusing sarcasm now...


 
The issue has been dealt with, thus the mod note that was placed.  Lets not feed into the comment anymore, for the sake of some sanity in this thread.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 13, 2009)

MJS said:


> Explain this poom to me again please. I"m assuming its a belt or belts that are given to kids that aren't at the BB age yet?


Yes.



MJS said:


> As for the system that you describe...sounds good to me. Of course, the thing is, is that the system seems to be so far gone, I'm not sure how it'd be fixed. This would require some serious policing of the art. Explain to me the 1-4 poom. Will the child whos not ready for full BB yet, actually testing for each 1-4 poom? So for ex...a 12yr old is ready for "BB" but technically not old enough. So he tests for a poom 1. He moves thru this process until he's old enough for full BB, lets say 16 for the sake of discussion. He then tests for a full adult BB. Am I correct on this?


Not so much that it is 'so far gone' as it simply never was quite there.

Essentially, a student who is under fifteen goes through the colored belt curriculum at his or her school and is at a point where, were they an adult, they would be testing for first dan, is tested in the member school.  Presumably the test is the same test that adults get, but scaled for a kid.

Assuming that the child passes, the paperwork goes to the Kukkiwon.  They issue a certificate that reads, "First Poom."  

At this point, the instructor ought to put a poom belt and a poom dobok on the kid.  A poom belt is half red and half black, and a poom dobok is essentially the same as your TKD black belt dobok with the black collar, but the collar is half red/half black, just like the belt.  This is the first point of break down: most of the time, the instructor puts a black belt on the student.

If the child is young enough that they will be eligible for second dan before they are fifteen, then they are tested for second  poom and receive a certificate that reads "Second Poom."  The same can be done for third poom, assuming that the student is young enough.

The second area of breakdown is that once the child is fifteen, the instructor can file paperwork and all of poom ranks convert to dan ranks, no test required.  Thus a third poom is now third dan at the age of fifteen.

It should be noted that this is not automated.  An eight year old first poom who quits after getting his belt and never comes back is still first poom, even if he is now thirty.

As I said, fixing it would be fairly easy.  Making the poom ranks intermediate ranks (between kyu and dan), rather than unfinalized dan ranks that convert upon the child's fifteenth birthday would pretty much solve it.

And even if the organization will not implement it, a creative school owner certainly could.

Daniel


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## pete (Oct 13, 2009)

Seems to bother those most who emphasize THE BELT.  All the belt means is that the student met the requirements put forth by the instructor and the school.  Results will vary.

It doesn't bother me, or affect me at all, since i could give a rats *** what goes on in another school, even if its the same style i teach. Not my responsibility or my problem. 

Belts are for kids anyway... Adults should be more concerned with knowledge, skill, and improvement.  

pete.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 13, 2009)

MJS said:


> Are you being serious here, sarcastic, or following your usual protocol for posting, and just posting some random stuff, for the sake of making a post? Either way, who the hell cares if she's gifted. Fact of the matter is, she's too damn young for a BB.
> 
> I'm going to say something that the nutrider group usually says...I want to see video of this girl. I want to see some sort of live proof that she performs the way its claimed, otherwise I called BS on her, her inst. and the school she trains at.


In this instance, it is hard for me to call 'BS' on the five year old.  Shame the school.  Also, given that dad is a "karate" champion and teacher according to the article, shame on him for not putting the breaks on.  It is one thing for a non practicing suburbanite parent to go along with it; they do not know any better.  But that guy does.

As for the kid, she is just doing what is asked of her.

Daniel


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes.


 





> Not so much that it is 'so far gone' as it simply never was quite there.
> 
> Essentially, a student who is under fifteen goes through the colored belt curriculum at his or her school and is at a point where, were they an adult, they would be testing for first dan, is tested in the member school. Presumably the test is the same test that adults get, but scaled for a kid.
> 
> ...


 
Ahh...I see.  Well, that makes sense. I mean, if there was never any QC system in place, of course things are going to be FUBAR.  I like your idea and I do think that if it were put into motion, they'd work.  Problem is, getting everyone to agree to it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 13, 2009)

suicide said:


> who knows shes probably gifted and ahead of her time ? :redcaptur


Perhaps.  But one can be gifted and ahead of their time but not ready for certain levels of rank and responsibility.

Daniel


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2009)

pete said:


> Seems to bother those most who emphasize THE BELT. All the belt means is that the student met the requirements put forth by the instructor and the school. Results will vary.
> 
> It doesn't bother me, or affect me at all, since i could give a rats *** what goes on in another school, even if its the same style i teach. Not my responsibility or my problem.
> 
> ...


 
Well, I'm the first to say, as I've said it in many other threads, that its not the belt that impresses me, its the knowledge of the person.  Of course, when you see someone bastardizing the art, because of their actions, it makes everyone look bad.  Guilty by assoc.  It happens all the time.  Of course, I've also said that in the end, its that person who makes the poor choices, that'll have to live with the comments and negative talk.


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In this instance, it is hard for me to call 'BS' on the five year old. Shame the school. Also, given that dad is a "karate" champion and teacher according to the article, shame on him for not putting the breaks on. It is one thing for a non practicing suburbanite parent to go along with it; they do not know any better. But that guy does.
> 
> As for the kid, she is just doing what is asked of her.
> 
> Daniel


 
I call BS on the child, because she could be a 15yr old 10th degree or a 5yr old 1st degree.  Either way, I would never hold any respect for her or the rank.  Sadly though, she is the victim, because of her young age, she doesnt know any better.  Hopefully down the road, someone will tell her like it really is.  

As for the dad, I thought someone said he was her teacher?  Whatever the case may be, yes, shame on him.  Then again, it'd be interesting to know his track record on promotions over the years.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 13, 2009)

pete said:


> Seems to bother those most who emphasize THE BELT. All the belt means is that the student met the requirements put forth by the instructor and the school. Results will vary.
> 
> It doesn't bother me, or affect me at all, since i could give a rats *** what goes on in another school, even if its the same style i teach. Not my responsibility or my problem.
> 
> ...


Essentially, I agree with you. 

The problem comes in that people want to have it both ways. Master Jim Kim Yoshida Lee will tell you that his black belt students are the deadliest fighting machines on the planet. Then he puts black belts on six year olds that, frankly, look like six year olds doing kata and hit like, well, six year olds.

Mom and dad want that black belt to mean that the kid is a capable fighter who can defend him or herself. But those same parents would go bonkers if the kid were put through what passed for a black belt class twenty years ago, and the lawsuits would fly.

Realistically, having a means of rewarding hard working and continuing child students and having a means to bracket childrens' competition are necessary and reasonable. It simply needs to be strutured in a coherent manner that makes some degree of logical sense.

This mainly becomes a sticking point for school owners who's requirements are stricter than those of other schools. Parents will go down the road and often pay more money so that junior can have a black belt because that is all that mom and dad can see. The guy with the higher standards now suffers unjustifiably, essentially because a competitor has thrown standards to the wind and is milking gullible parents' wallets.

Let us face it; no matter how you slice it, you simply cannot explain to most people why a certificate from one martial arts school means more than a certificate from another. Even though that same parent understands it perfectly when colleges say it.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 13, 2009)

MJS said:


> I call BS on the child, because she could be a 15yr old 10th degree or a 5yr old 1st degree. Either way, I would never hold any respect for her or the rank. Sadly though, she is the victim, because of her young age, she doesnt know any better. Hopefully down the road, someone will tell her like it really is.
> 
> As for the dad, I thought someone said he was her teacher? Whatever the case may be, yes, shame on him. Then again, it'd be interesting to know his track record on promotions over the years.


I was mainly thinking of this child specifically in my post.

If any child is bestowed inflated ranks from youth, but really works hard and tries their absolute best and looks as good as one can expect them to at their age, then I can respect them for *that*.  The rank I really cannot hold in high regard.  But mainly, I put the blame on the instructor or the instructor and the parents, depending on the circumstances, but always the instructor.

Honestly, most of the attaboy, self confidence, keep-em-interested stuff can be achieved by merit patches and in school awards rather than belts and rank.

Daniel


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## arnisador (Oct 13, 2009)

MJS said:


> Karate....kind of a generic term.  I wonder what art she studies.



I was going to bet on TKD, but I don't know:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...id-gets-a-black-belt-at-five-115875-21387137/



> The youngster puts in twoand-half-hours' training every day at the Koinchi Academy of Martial Arts in Allappuzha, India, where she is a student.



It was written KoInChi or KoinChi in other sources. This article also makes it sounds like it is indeed Japanese karate:
http://www.rexfeatures.com/features...old_black_belt_karate_kid?filter=H&pl=16&cr=1


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## Miles (Oct 13, 2009)

In TKD (Kukkiwon), anyone under 15 is a poom, not a dan holder.


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## Nomad (Oct 13, 2009)

Yep, read this one and just sadly shook my head.  Written as an obvious fluff piece by someone who probably just happens to be a friend of the instructor. 

Blame the instructor and the parents... oh wait, in this case, they're one and the same... the Dad is the instructor.  Well, at least there can't be any claims of partiality or favoritism at that dojo.

*sigh*


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## Haze (Oct 13, 2009)

There's a video with it and it looks like she memorized some kata so her father gave her a BB.


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## Live True (Oct 14, 2009)

Haze said:


> There's a video with it and it looks like she memorized some kata so her father gave her a BB.


 
I  missed the video the first time...AND the fact that this made the news because she's the new "ambassador" for a video game called mini ninja

yeah...no commercial gain, opportunism, or taking advantage of a child here...nope...not at all
:rpo:


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## Ceicei (Oct 14, 2009)

Haze said:


> There's a video with it and it looks like she memorized some kata so her father gave her a BB.





Live True said:


> I missed the video the first time...AND the fact that this made the news because she's the new "ambassador" for a video game called mini ninja...



For the others who didn't see the video attached with the article (Haze pointed it out), I'll provide the link below that takes you directly to the video:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/10/08/karate.black.belt.five/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

- Ceicei


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## jks9199 (Oct 14, 2009)

Ceicei said:


> For the others who didn't see the video attached with the article (Haze pointed it out), I'll provide the link below that takes you directly to the video:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/10/08/karate.black.belt.five/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
> 
> - Ceicei


She looks like a five year old doing karate.  Nothing more.  Same sort of skill/performance as I see in other five year old kids doing martial arts.


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## Stac3y (Oct 15, 2009)

I saw a 5 year old yellow belt do a better kata last month. Sheesh.


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## Cirdan (Oct 15, 2009)

Stac3y said:


> I saw a 5 year old yellow belt do a better kata last month. Sheesh.


 
Well I am sure this one can throw chi balls or something


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 15, 2009)

I'd like to thank the father for cheapening the arts and disrespecting black belts (real ones) everywhere.


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## still learning (Oct 15, 2009)

Hello,  All "Dads"  think there kids are the "bestes"  ....and he felt she earn it...!

When you are the boss?  ...one can promote everyone....Is it right or fair?

Many times it can be a miss judgement and have a long term effects overall...?

Remember there is NO laws or rules reguarding promotions and who should received a Black belt....just your own beliefs against his....

For us?   ....Nope!  ...my personal beliefs injected here too...

In our system we have Junior Black belts (teens only) and they will still need be be tested again for an adult Black belt when they are over 18 years old and finish the Junior requirements ranking too...and meet ALL the needed materials before testing..

Aloha,


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## MJS (Oct 15, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I was mainly thinking of this child specifically in my post.
> 
> If any child is bestowed inflated ranks from youth, but really works hard and tries their absolute best and looks as good as one can expect them to at their age, then I can respect them for *that*. The rank I really cannot hold in high regard. But mainly, I put the blame on the instructor or the instructor and the parents, depending on the circumstances, but always the instructor.
> 
> ...


 
I do see your point.  Hopefully, down the road, someone other than her inst. will enlighten her about what the BB really means and how its earned.  I have no issues with keeping kids motivated.  I think its great to see kids in the arts, providing they are taking it seriously, and not thinking that its nothing more than a joke.  This is why I'd rather see a kid with a JR BB or something that signifies something other than a full BB.


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## Nomad (Oct 15, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello,  All "Dads"  think there kids are the "bestes"  ....and he felt she earn it...!
> 
> When you are the boss?  ...one can promote everyone....Is it right or fair?



I know my kids are the bestest, but have no illusions that they're in any way ready for black belt, including the one who's been training for 6+ years now.  Great competitors and practitioners for their rank, but nowhere near black.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 15, 2009)

*grumble grumble*


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## shesulsa (Oct 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> *grumble grumble*


ditto


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## ATC (Oct 16, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> I'd like to thank the father for cheapening the arts and disrespecting black belts (real ones) everywhere.


The art is not cheapened and I am not disrespected. Even if you just gave some 2 year old a belt would not offend me in any way. I could care less. That belt means something entirely different to me than them.

Just because I give someone a black belt does not mean that they have the same meaning of it that I have. So whoever gave her hers simply has a different meaning of the belt than you or I. Maybe she was able to wash the dishes at home by herself so he said you deserve a black belt. Oh well. Not why I would give it to her but he did. So she is only a black belt to those who have the exact same standard as the person that gave it to her. That is all.

Don't feel bad for yourself or the art because someone gave her a belt. The art is something different to each and always has been and always will be.


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## MJS (Oct 16, 2009)

arnisador said:


> I was going to bet on TKD, but I don't know:
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...id-gets-a-black-belt-at-five-115875-21387137/
> 
> 
> ...


 
Well, whatever art it is, its a school people should stay away from IMO.


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## MJS (Oct 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> The art is not cheapened and I am not disrespected. Even if you just gave some 2 year old a belt would not offend me in any way. I could care less. That belt means something entirely different to me than them.
> 
> Just because I give someone a black belt does not mean that they have the same meaning of it that I have. So whoever gave her hers simply has a different meaning of the belt than you or I. Maybe she was able to wash the dishes at home by herself so he said you deserve a black belt. Oh well. Not why I would give it to her but he did. So she is only a black belt to those who have the exact same standard as the person that gave it to her. That is all.
> 
> Don't feel bad for yourself or the art because someone gave her a belt. The art is something different to each and always has been and always will be.


 
In a way, yes, the art will be cheapened.  Don't you remember when I kept saying, "Guilty by association."?  People already have a distorted view of the martial arts.  People will lump certain arts together.  People will assume that all (insert art here) will be the same, if they see a school that hands out black belts like candy.  

Of course, in the end, its people like that, that'll have to deal with the comments like you see on this thread and the others in the TKD section.  We'll never change the mcdojos of the world, because there will always be people who put the $ before the quality.  Oh well.....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 16, 2009)

I think that a better way of putting it is that it cheapens the_ image_ of the art and it hurts the industry in the long run.  

The McDojos that charges a ton of money and deliver a lousy product are not so hidden from the general public as they once were.  There are more adult parents now who have been turned off to taekwondo and the mini-mall dojo and who are bypassing both the art and the sport altogether; there are better MA alternatives than what one finds in the McDojo and there are better sport alternatives to Taekwondo.  

Let us face it: if Junior wants to be a hot shot athlete, he is presented with much more, much better, and much more established options than Taekwondo or any other sport karate.  An athletic kid will go further as an athlete with any one of a number of ball sports and/or wrestling.

Personally, I think that if the McDojo's would just go completely sport and come up with some sort of designated competition black belt; one that indicates that the belt is for competition bracketing, then the practical art and the sport could, structurally, go their separate ways and we could appreciate sport as a _sport_, and not be comparing child black belts with 25 year in adult practitioners.

Daniel


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 16, 2009)

What Daniel said...

People like that also cause me to have to "prove" myself more than I'd like. 

I don't advertise what I do in my spare time; however, there have been occasions where people have said, "Oh...you're a black belt in krotty? Well...what would you do if I did this!" and then swung at me. 

Neither I nor the poor idiot that swung at me appreciate the image this kind of crap creates. The popular view of "krotty" these days is that it's glorified day-care and a joke. People make fun of it and don't respect it because they have what I call the "Power Ranger Mentality." 

McDojo's only contribute to this stigma; especially when they strap a black belt onto a 5 year old. 

I don't care how talented the kid is...do you see any 5 year old pee-wee football stars playing in the NFL? Do you see any 5 year old prodigy's in the UFC for that matter? Do you see any 5 year old genius' teaching college level Physics? If you did, how seriously do you think the general public would take them? And, in the event that a particular field became inundated with 5 year olds... then the whole field would suffer for it. 

For the sake of argument, let's say the kid had the skills and knowledge. You can't convince me that a child has the mental capability or maturity level to comprehend all the principles as well as a working knowledge of how to apply them.


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## Ninebird8 (Oct 16, 2009)

I have stated before on this forum, and I will say it again, no person under the age of 18 should receive a black belt equivalent in any art. Maybe a junior recognition, but if so they should be required to re test at age 18. I have been in the Chinese martial arts a long time, and one premise that has not changes is that a Master's rank is dependent as much on mental prowess and understanding, along with the amount of honor, that a person has attained over YEARS of sweating blood, as we used to call it. A person of that age or any child has no concept of the precepts mentally that correlate with the physical skills one attains over the years.

This trend dovetails with the overall trend today to not set boundaries of behavior for a child, be worried about your child liking you, and the psychobabble currently foistered by school systems and psychologists that our kids must like us when they are young. My parents and my teachers never cared about us liking them, whether in school or the martial arts. I thought for years one of my three masters absolutely hated me and treated me like crap compared to my classmates. Only later did I find out he did this because he felt I had the most potential but would not handle praise well..LOL! He was right! His actions spurred me to train harder, internalize the lessons learned, and become adept at failing and then learning from it!! But, none of my three teachers would ever dream of giving a black belt to a child! They were reluctant to give one to an adult....LOL! This gives a child a false sense they could actually defend themselves at that age. 

The ONLY two people I every saw as a kid who deserved these accolades were Jet Li at age 11 and Ernie Reyes Jr at age 8.


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 16, 2009)

I require written tests as part of rank advancement. A five year old couldn't spell half the words much less understand their meaning... so that rules out any 5 year old black belts in my lineage. 

Most American Kenpo schools require a thesis paper as part of attaining a black belt... do you think a 5 year old could write a comprehensive paper on a particular concept of martial arts? 

Perhaps some other schools/styles/systems that don't do this sort of thing as part of testing should. That way, we'd have less toddler black belts running around and perhaps regain some legitamacy and respect. 

...and coloring books don't count as a written test.


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## ATC (Oct 16, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> People like that also cause me to have to "prove" myself more than I'd like.
> 
> I don't advertise what I do in my spare time; however, there have been occasions where people have said, "Oh...you're a black belt in krotty? Well...what would you do if I did this!" and then swung at me.
> 
> ...


I think that the arts themselves create what you speak about. Knowing the arts are suppose to make you know how to handle yourself or fight in most peoples eyes so it is only natural that some idiots will challenge you. Regardless if a 5 year old holds a black belt or not.

I think most people do respect it, regardless of the kids. Most people are aprehensive of anyone their own size and weight anyway so when you add the fact that a same sized person knows any art will make them think twice about doing anything.

People don't respect the weak or anyone they perceive weak or weaker than them I should really say. I think we in the MA community have the perceptions that you speak of. And even we still tend to respece anyone of similar stature.


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## ATC (Oct 16, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> I require written tests as part of rank advancement. A five year old couldn't spell half the words much less understand their meaning... so that rules out any 5 year old black belts in my lineage.
> 
> Most American Kenpo schools require a thesis paper as part of attaining a black belt... do you think a 5 year old could write a comprehensive paper on a particular concept of martial arts?
> 
> ...


Ha ha ha...I get you and understand what you are saying but just because they require something does not mean that they apply they same standards to it that you do. They may even relax their own standards for the sake of age, mental developement or any reason. I think most schools do require some sort of written essay but the standards differ making the point almost moot.


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## ATC (Oct 16, 2009)

Ninebird8 said:


> This gives a child a false sense they could actually defend themselves at that age.
> 
> The ONLY two people I every saw as a kid who deserved these accolades were Jet Li at age 11 and Ernie Reyes Jr at age 8.


I don't even think that Jet Li and Ernie Reyes Jr at those ages could defend themselves againt a grown adult.

One of Ernie Masters was also a Master of mine and I knew Ernie when he was young. A bit older than 8 at the time but I still knew him and I can tell you that he was good and there are many just as good as he was at the same age, even today but they cannot defend themselves in a real life and death situation againt an adult at that age. Yes they can handle themselves well againt anyone their age and a few years older but that would be it.

I remember being in class as a color belt and had to spar a 3 Dan girl. She was 20 or so and was really really good. She beat me every which way until I said forget this Matial Arts stuff I am just going to hit her, and I did. I did not try to make it look pretty and I did not try to do any techniques I was taught. I just ran at her and punched her in the chest as hard as I could. She quit...well she balled up on the floor and just laid there. The same would have happen to Jet and Ernie at those ages, so why do they deserve their belts anymore than anyone else?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> I remember being in class as a color belt and had to spar a 3 Dan girl. She was 20 or so and was really really good. She beat me every which way until I said forget this Matial Arts stuff I am just going to hit her, and I did. I did not try to make it look pretty and I did not try to do any techniques I was taught. I just ran at her and punched her in the chest as hard as I could. She quit...well she balled up on the floor and just laid there. The same would have happen to Jet and Ernie at those ages, so why do they deserve their belts anymore than anyone else?


I do not even want to contemplate what it says about her training if she could not evade, block, or somehow defend against someone running at her and throwing a body punch.

And let us look at this illustration. A third dan and twenty. That means that she was no older than eighteen at second and no older than seventeen at first.

I say *no older*, because unless she had just become third dan, she likely earned these ranks at younger ages. Ninebird's post stated at the outset that nobody under 18 should get a BB and mentioned two exceptions.

Without commenting on the exceptions except that there are some, there is merit to making 18 the benchmark, rather than 15...or five. If I were to have been a white belt watching a colored belt do that to an adult third dan (20 qualifies as adult) in the same school where I trained, I would have had a very hard time taking the training seriously and likely would have found another school. And how old were you at the time? If you were less than fifteen and took her down like that, I would really have made tracks to another school. 

You said that she was really good. Define really good. 

Good at forms? Good at sparring WTF style? Good at punching the air? Good at breaking boards? Whatever she was good at, defending against punches, charging opponents, and taking a hit were not on the list, and by third dan, they darned well *should* have been.

I also notice that you said, "She beat me every which way until I said forget this Matial Arts stuff I am just going to hit her, and I did. I did not try to make it look pretty and I did not try to do any techniques I was taught. I just ran at her and punched her in the chest as hard as I could."

I am sorry, but by third dan, I would really hope that she had been taught to defend against someone doing just that.

This is one of my biggest issues with many schools. They act as though sport technique is the equal of self defense. Had you *not* been another TKD student, you would not have given her the opportunity to "beat you every which way"; you would have just run up and punched her in the chest and been done with it.

It is not clear if she was a fellow student or a student from another school, but if you both had the same teacher, that should have been a huge red flag. Either the training at the school where she was taught produces students that cannot defend themselves outside of the dojo or the owner promotes people who cannot defend themselves. Either way, that does not reflect well on the school where she trained.

Daniel


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> ...standards....


 
That's the crux ain't it? 

I don't think standards should be extremely rigid, but I think one's standards shouldn't be as limp as a wet noodle either. 

I've lost students due to my high standards but it doesn't bother me because my income is not dependant on it and my primary goal is maintaining the integrity of what I teach. 

I don't begrudge anyone making a dollar doing MA, but for cryin' out loud... can we at least have better standards? Or am I really that off in thinking that awarding a 5 year old a black belt is just plain wrong and does more harm than good in regards to our image? :idunno:


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## ATC (Oct 16, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I do not even want to contemplate what it says about her training if she could not evade, block, or somehow defend against someone running at her and throwing a body punch.
> 
> And let us look at this illustration. A third dan and twenty. That means that she was no older than eighteen at second and no older than seventeen at first.
> 
> ...


This was a while back and not a sports school at all. We would spar with only the foam feet and hands. Shin guards if you wanted them, and head gear. It was more like kick boxing of old that we were doing. I did not just throw one punch but pretty much bum rushed her and had her backing up. When I did land the punch it was with bad intentions as i was a teenaged boy being embarrased. I would say I was 18 maybe 19. I had just gotten back into the MA after some time off.

She was good in the sense that she could was fast, could hit what she wanted to and her techniques were solid. But she lacked any power to hurt me. It was more of a bother or irritant to get hit by her. I most likely weight about 160 back then and she could not have been no more than 125 maybe 130. She was maybe 5'8" pretty tall, but I am 6'2".

My point was that even though she was more skilled than me she still could not handle brute force. My will was stronger and because I was stronger these two things out classed her skill and training. Just because someone trains and they can be very good, man or woman, If someone has stronger will and is stronger and can withstand anything that they can give out they will physiclly beat them.

That is why there are weight classes from boxing to wrestleing, and sure don't mix women and men.

I do not think that there was anything she could do short of getting lucky with a groin shot or eye gouge. Even a 120 pound man will hit with more force and speed than a 120 pound woman. The two bodies are not built the same or for the same things.


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## Tez3 (Oct 16, 2009)

What she should have been able to do as a 3rd Dan is anticipate, at that grade one should have had a huge amount of experience sparring against all sorts of people so she should have been able to see how your body language, posture etc had changed and to expect something. she should have outthought and outflanked you  but of course she shouldn't have been that grade at that age! Age and experience will outdo youth and strength because for one thing you get sneakier and slyer as you get older to compensate for losing strength and speed. 
ATC I've seen my mate Rosi drop a guy your size lol! He wasn't amused I have to say though. My daughter who is smaller than Rosi ducked under a big guy throwing a punch and took him down with a duck under valley drop, another unhappy guy taken by guile. My daughter is training with Rosi this weekend so goodness knows what she'll come back with!


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## ATC (Oct 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> What she should have been able to do as a 3rd Dan is anticipate, at that grade one should have had a huge amount of experience sparring against all sorts of people so she should have been able to see how your body language, posture etc had changed and to expect something. she should have outthought and outflanked you but of course she shouldn't have been that grade at that age! Age and experience will outdo youth and strength because for one thing you get sneakier and slyer as you get older to compensate for losing strength and speed.
> ATC I've seen my mate Rosi drop a guy your size lol! He wasn't amused I have to say though. My daughter who is smaller than Rosi ducked under a big guy throwing a punch and took him down with a duck under valley drop, another unhappy guy taken by guile. My daughter is training with Rosi this weekend so goodness knows what she'll come back with!


First off I would like to say Congrats to your daughter and wish her luck in her training as well.

No about your statement. Yes there are always going to be some exceptions but the norm will always be the norm. If things are kept in context then I'd say the field is level. But once you step outside the guide lines then things tend to tilt towards a more natural conclusion. If I had stayed trying to match her with the limited techniques I had at the time I would not have even touched her.

This happens all the time in real life too. I have seen street fights start off with two guys trying to box each other. One guy is far better at this than the other so the guy that is getting a bloody nose from all the jabs he is taking decides to shoot for the legs or run in an tackle the boxer because in that context he cannot match or even come close to matching his opponent. I see this all the time.

I only mentioned this happening of mine to counter that fact that no matter how skilled an 8 year old prodigy he is no match for any full grown man. I used my own experience with an adult woman and a teenage boy.

It is easy to say that they could side step or parry ones attack, but for how long. You can only run for so long. In any sport match or street fight you will get hit. Now it is can you take that hit and keep hitting back that matters most.


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## Tez3 (Oct 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> First off I would like to say Congrats to your daughter and wish her luck in her training as well.
> 
> No about your statement. Yes there are always going to be some exceptions but the norm will always be the norm. If things are kept in context then I'd say the field is level. But once you step outside the guide lines then things tend to tilt towards a more natural conclusion. If I had stayed trying to match her with the limited techniques I had at the time I would not have even touched her.
> 
> ...


 

Cheers, my daughter has her first amateur MMA fight in December should be fun, she's a jockey and as strong as hell lol! she's 24 and been in martial arts since she was 8, she hasn't graded however beyond 7th kyu. She's not interested in grading in anything.

The thing I was trying to get across was that being such a young 3rd Dan she had no experience an older 3rd Dan would have had to escape you. There's a fair bit she could have done to avoid being dumped on the floor or even if she was, getting up and fighting back. At such a young age and at such a relatively high grade there simply isn't the experience, strength and ability there. 
Come at me like that and I will take you down, I'm not going to stand and trade punches with a guy, I will take down and hurt in that situation. You need flexibilty of mind which comes with experience not giving BB to children.


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## ATC (Oct 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Cheers, my daughter has her first amateur MMA fight in December should be fun, she's a jockey and as strong as hell lol! she's 24 and been in martial arts since she was 8, she hasn't graded however beyond 7th kyu. She's not interested in grading in anything.
> 
> The thing I was trying to get across was that being such a young 3rd Dan she had no experience an older 3rd Dan would have had to escape you. There's a fair bit she could have done to avoid being dumped on the floor or even if she was, getting up and fighting back. At such a young age and at such a relatively high grade there simply isn't the experience, strength and ability there.
> Come at me like that and I will take you down, I'm not going to stand and trade punches with a guy, I will take down and hurt in that situation. You need flexibilty of mind which comes with experience not giving BB to children.


Yes I get your point but I still have to say maybe. We have a couple older guys that just recently tested for 2nd Dan and had to perform SD techniques during their testing. Guess who gets to play the bad guy all the time
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





? Yep, me. Well these guys are a bit older in their mid to late 20's and I can tell you they all failed this part. I pretty much man handled them both as would happen in the street and they pretty much did not have the strength to get out of simple holds. One did elbow my ribs pretty good, but it was not enough to make me break my grip and he found himself going to sleep.

I know what you are saying and yes it could be a factor but it could also just as easily not be a factor as well. I think it is up to the individual. We can all say what we will do but when faced with it in real time we can only hope it all pays off. Like I said it only takes one good punch and no one can move or block everything all the time. Sometimes you have to be able to take or with stand an onslaught first. Like I always tell my students; I can take the first one, but can you (refering to my students that is).

*Hope you daughter does well. Be proud Mom!!! I think I like watching my kids, win or lose more than me doing it myself anymore.*


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## Tez3 (Oct 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> Yes I get your point but I still have to say maybe. We have a couple older guys that just recently tested for 2nd Dan and had to perform SD techniques during their testing. Guess who gets to play the bad guy all the time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yep always been proud of her lol! Watching your kids fight full contact though is not enjoyable., I'd rather fight myself.
We train full contact and due to my job I get 'involved' a fair bit in fights, I've had punches thrown at me by big guys though funnily enough it's the little ones that are most punchy ( little man syndrome!) and I certainly can take a punch, my teeth will attest to that, though I've been KO'd in the club a couple of times, a punch to the face is okay it's the liver shots I hate though am fond of giving them lol! Taking the first one, standing there afterwards certainly does make the attacker think, oops hit the wrongg one. Again in the course of my work I've had to take someone down, we do take them down, not stand and trade punches. 
2nd Dans I know are all in their late thirties, I don't know of any in their twenties.
Our SD is very robust, our instructor is also a close protection officer and doorman as well as having been in the army for over twenty years. He's trained with the best in SD such as Geoff Thompson. The MMA is a separate part of our training but the two complement each other very well, our TSD is probably also more robust than many, gums shields, groin guards and MMA gloves (thats our personal choice) are the only protection and sparring again is full contact.
It's not so much the rank as their age, they are too young for their rank, they can't possibly have the years of experience they should have for their grade. We spend years at one dan grade just learning and gaining experience, no one should be third at 20. If you chaps are going for 2nd but haven't spent a few years at first they won't have much experience, it's just another grading isn't it.


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## ATC (Oct 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Yep always been proud of her lol! Watching your kids fight full contact though is not enjoyable., I'd rather fight myself.
> We train full contact and due to my job I get 'involved' a fair bit in fights, I've had punches thrown at me by big guys though funnily enough it's the little ones that are most punchy ( little man syndrome!) and I certainly can take a punch, my teeth will attest to that, though I've been KO'd in the club a couple of times, a punch to the face is okay it's the liver shots I hate though am fond of giving them lol! Taking the first one, standing there afterwards certainly does make the attacker think, oops hit the wrongg one. Again in the course of my work I've had to take someone down, we do take them down, not stand and trade punches.
> 2nd Dans I know are all in their late thirties, I don't know of any in their twenties.
> Our SD is very robust, our instructor is also a close protection officer and doorman as well as having been in the army for over twenty years. He's trained with the best in SD such as Geoff Thompson. The MMA is a separate part of our training but the two complement each other very well, our TSD is probably also more robust than many, gums shields, groin guards and MMA gloves (thats our personal choice) are the only protection and sparring again is full contact.
> It's not so much the rank as their age, they are too young for their rank, they can't possibly have the years of experience they should have for their grade. We spend years at one dan grade just learning and gaining experience, no one should be third at 20. If you chaps are going for 2nd but haven't spent a few years at first they won't have much experience, it's just another grading isn't it.


I think they have all spent at least 3 years at 1st. That seems to be on par with most places. I have seen some faster but these guys have been at this place for about 10 years total, maybe since 12 and the other 15. They are young so they are fast and are pretty good technique wise but like many I see, they tend to break down when you take the saftey off. When there is no one to say stop an it is not controlled. Most kids that come up in a studio...uhmmm gym 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, tend to have never been in a real fight now days. So when you come at them unstructured they freeze a bit or seem lost. I see this a lot and not just in my dojang. It may be that many of todays (where I am located now) youth that take up MA tend to be better off economicly and don't come from those tuff places like I did when I was young. Just my observation.

I know that even my own kids have never been in a real fight. Heck, by the time I was there age I had enough playground fights to be considered a PRO. They have not had a single fight. My son was once punched in the face but just went to the teach like he was taught to.


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## Gorilla (Oct 16, 2009)

Wow 5...I thought that only TKD did this...five is very young I would like to see her fight and see how she does...Five seems very young...Seems like this issue is a problem in many martial arts


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> This was a while back and not a sports school at all. We would spar with only the foam feet and hands. Shin guards if you wanted them, and head gear. It was more like kick boxing of old that we were doing. I did not just throw one punch but pretty much bum rushed her and had her backing up. When I did land the punch it was with bad intentions as i was a teenaged boy being embarrased. I would say I was 18 maybe 19. I had just gotten back into the MA after some time off.
> 
> She was good in the sense that she could was fast, could hit what she wanted to and her techniques were solid. But she lacked any power to hurt me. It was more of a bother or irritant to get hit by her. I most likely weight about 160 back then and she could not have been no more than 125 maybe 130. She was maybe 5'8" pretty tall, but I am 6'2".
> 
> ...


Kickboxing = sport.
Weight classes = sport.
A girl who was fast and could hit but could not hit hard enough to be more than an irritant does not a third dan make.
A girl who cannot defend against a bums rush does not a thrid dan make.

And the weight should not have prevented her from hitting you hard enough to hurt you. I outweigh Floyd Mayweather by a substantial amount, probably more than you outweighed her.  Somehow, I do not think that he would be deterred.  Master Lee at our school weighs 135 and hits hard enough for me to really feel it through the hogu. I weigh 202. That is a much greater difference than 130 to 160. In fact, at 6'2, 160 is rather light.

I real life, the predator picks out victims who are smaller and weaker. Do not put a third dan on someone who can only point fight. And if she could not do more than irritate you because you a bit bigger, then point fighting is all that she is capable of. That is not a third dan.

Daniel


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## ATC (Oct 17, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Kickboxing = sport.
> Weight classes = sport.
> A girl who was fast and could hit but could not hit hard enough to be more than an irritant does not a third dan make.
> A girl who cannot defend against a bums rush does not a thrid dan make.
> ...


Yep all you said was true but one difference. A woman at 130 is not the same as a man at 130. If both train to their physical best a 130 lb man will hit much, much harder than any 130 lb woman. Every time.

Master Suh is also about 137 and I now weigh in the 210 range (160 was in my teen years) and he has broken my ribs, and arm. However his sister who is older than him and maybe in the 120 range, and has been training just as long if not longer than him can not hurt me. In fact over my 30+ years of training no women has hit me hard enough to hurt me. But I have been drop many times from other men in both the dojo and dojang.

Now there are some women that give a good pop but none as hard as any man. Women just don't have the muscle density. Even though kickboxing, boxing and the other that you mentioned are sports, the people doing them still are punching and kicking you.

Also it is sad to say that there are quite a few 3rd Dans in the world, women and men that could not defend someone bigger and stronger than them by being bum rushed. There are many people out in the world that can just plain fight. I did not need any MA to help me fight better I just thought it was cool and one I started I continued to like it.

Yes you would like and hope that any 3rd Dan could handle him/herself but that won't always be the case no matter how high their standard were for getting that rank.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 17, 2009)

I appreciate the response, ATC.

This where there is a fundemental difference between the modern and the traditional views of rank. 

By third dan, there should not be a need for size, weight, age, or gender based excuses. How about kicks? Women have greater muscle density in the legs than men of comparable height, and by third dan, she should have been able to kick like a freight train. Also, by third dan, she should have been able to punch competently and at least block and/or parry. At the very least, she should have been able to get out of the way. 

If you can only defend yourself against another person of your own size, weight, and gender by third dan, then congratulations: you just got a third dan in point fighting and pretty forms. Nothing more.

By third dan, you should be able to fight and handle yourself. Against anyone. Not beat anyone, but handle yourself. She could not. If one hit balls you up and takes you out, then not only have you not handled yourself, you are now dead should the hit occur at the hands of an attacker outside of the dojo. There are no weight classes outside of competition and the average woman is more likely to be attacked by someone who is both a man and likely heavier than she is.

From first to fourth dan, amongst adults from their prime into near middle age, is mostly about execution of technique. Fifth is a master and should be not only about execution, but about teaching ability, depth of knowledge, and maturity. It is not until sixth and above that the emphasis shifts away from the ability to fight and execute your techniques to effectively defend yourself.

And at twenty years of age, barring some physical disability, there is absolutely *no* reason for a third dan to have lousy punches in a karate based art. 

Needless to say, my opinion about what it takes to be third dan is such that I do not see it as appropriate for young children.

Daniel


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## shinbushi (Oct 17, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> Wow 5...I thought that only TKD did this...five is very young I would like to see her fight and see how she does...Five seems very young...Seems like this issue is a problem in many martial arts


In Thailand for Muay Thai Kids start fighting professionally around 6.  Full contact Muay Thai rules


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## suicide (Oct 17, 2009)

yeah muay thai kids are lethal ! 

hey a 5 your old bb is better than a 5 year old ninja :yoda:


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## ATC (Oct 17, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I appreciate the response, ATC.
> 
> This where there is a fundemental difference between the modern and the traditional views of rank.
> 
> By third dan, there should not be a need for size, weight, age, or gender based excuses. How about kicks? Women have greater muscle density in the legs than men of comparable height, and by third dan, she should have been able to kick like a freight train. Also, by third dan, she should have been able to punch competently and at least block and/or parry. At the very least, she should have been able to get out of the way...


 
I just don't think that there are any absolutes in life. You can only tip the odds a bit but you cannot make them absolute, and to me you point seem more like an absolute. There are no guarantees about anything let alone there being a fact or absolute truth in saying that a 3rd dan should be this and that. There is no way to guarantee it for even a small percentage of any category let alone all or even most. Even people of same build and strength can be stop or stop one another with one punch. So whats so hard to belief that someone bigger and stronger is doing it, regardless of any training? If you get hit and it hurts or takes your wind away, being a 3rd Dan or 10 Dan makes no difference. Just because you are a 3rd Dan does not guarantee you won't be hit let alone hurt. It happens. Taking a Martial Art and being any rank or level does not guarantee anything. Yes, you hope that when the time comes that what you have been practicing helps, but it may not.

As for women having greater muscle density in the legs than men, is just not true. I have heard that same statement a few times so I decided to look it up and can find no data to back up this claim. I do however find lots of data that states just the opposite. Men have more muscle density body wide period. This includes the legs or any other body part.

The only thing that I could find that even comes close is that women have greater muscle endurance vs. men due to the fact that women have greater fat reserves to pull from. When it comes to strength, men win hands down in every study.

Yes it is possible 130 pound man to defeat a 200 pound man. But those odds drop greatly when you replace the 130 pound man with 130 pound woman, regardless if she is a 3rd dan or 10th dan for that matter.

Even if our SD classes we tell women that you do not want to stay and try to fight any man. You want to stun them, draw attention to the situation, and flee if possible. We tell them that they need to kick, bite, scratch, and do whatever it takes to make it difficult for any attacker. This is in the hopes that the attacker will leave because it is not an easy mark and there are much easier pray to be had.

What we were doing was a controlled match with set fighting skills. I fail to see why you find it hard for a 3rd dan weak person to lose to a bigger stronger less technically skilled person. She was not trying to keep me off until help came. She was not trying to fight for her life. Hell if at the time it was a 130 pound 35 year old 3rd Dan, I think the outcome would have been the same.

Maybe if this were a SD situation in the street it would have been different but to say she was no 3rd Dan because a color belt bigger person hit her and knock her down with the puch cause it landed really makes no sense to me.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2009)

ATC are you saying she was pants at fighting because she was a woman and whatever grade she was she would still be rubbish?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 18, 2009)

ATC said:


> I just don't think that there are any absolutes in life. You can only tip the odds a bit but you cannot make them absolute, and to me you point seem more like an absolute. There are no guarantees about anything let alone there being a fact or absolute truth in saying that a 3rd dan should be this and that. There is no way to guarantee it for even a small percentage of any category let alone all or even most. Even people of same build and strength can be stop or stop one another with one punch. So what&#8217;s so hard to belief that someone bigger and stronger is doing it, regardless of any training? If you get hit and it hurts or takes your wind away, being a 3rd Dan or 10 Dan makes no difference. Just because you are a 3rd Dan does not guarantee you won't be hit let alone hurt. It happens. Taking a Martial Art and being any rank or level does not guarantee anything. Yes, you hope that when the time comes that what you have been practicing helps, but it may not.



To an extent, you are correct.  No, there are no absolutes in fighting and a third dan does not guarantee that you will never be hit and/or injured.  

But what you describe is essentially a point fight that you were losing until you threw all technique to the wind and bums rushed her and nailed her in the chest.  That is the sort of attack that one would expect on the school yard or from an out of hand drunk.  The fact that she had no resource against it at that level is troubling.  Sorry, but there is no way around that short of the rank being exclusively for sport.



ATC said:


> we were doing was a controlled match with set fighting skills. I fail to see why you find it hard for a 3rd dan weak person to lose to a bigger stronger less technically skilled person.


I do not think that you realize the picture that you paint of this on the internet.  You should realize that it is a bigger issue than simply a third dan losing to a bigger, stronger, less technically skilled person.  



ATC said:


> She was not trying to keep me off until help came. She was not trying to fight for her life. Hell if at the time it was a 130 pound 35 year old 3rd Dan, I think the outcome would have been the same.
> 
> Maybe if this were a SD situation in the street it would have been different


Different?  Yes, she would be raped and/or killed instead of helped off of the mat.

The fact that this was a controlled match and *not* a self defense situation actually makes it more troubling.  She is in an environment where she knows that you are going to attacker her, that you are, for fact, unarmed, and she is mentally prepared to face you.  In a self defense situation, you do not have those luxuries.  

If she was taken down that easily in the controlled environment by such a simplistic attack delivered by someone who, in all reality, was not interested in harming her, then honestly, I really cannot expect that she would have any means of defending herself in an actual self defense situation.



ATC said:


> but to say she was no 3rd Dan because a color belt bigger person hit her and knock her down with the puch cause it landed really makes no sense to me.


That is *not* what I said.  This is a multi-faceted issue, not a singular item.  And I am not extrapolating.  Everything that I have offered is entirely based upon your telling.   

The problem was not simply that the punch landed and knocked her down.  

First, the problem was that it was delivered by an easy to read and fairly easily avoided attack and left her completely defenseless.  Simple footwork and effective guarding should have gotten her out of this; what you describe is that she basically just backed up until she came to the wall and then was struck.

Secondly, by third dan, she *should* have taken enough shots to the body by opponents of varying sizes and genders to be able to do more than just ball up on the floor as you described.  

Thirdly, she could not effectively punch.  You described her punches as being no more than minor irritants.  The fact is that Karate based styles involve punching.  This includes Taekwondo.  By black belt, you *should*be able to effectively punch someone, regardless of your gender.  If you cannot do this, then you are not proficient in one of the *most* basic fundamentals of the style.  If you cannot either punch or kick or both well enough to hurt an attacker, then your instructor should not be tying a black belt around your waste.  

Also, I have trained with women who can effectively punch, so the gender explanation does not hold water.

It is this combination of things that makes the rank questionable, not simply that she took a hard hit.     

And this type of scenario is exactly what would happen to a child with a black belt facing an adult attacker outside of the dojo.  Which is the fundamental reason why I do not believe that children should be awarded black belts.

I realize that there are a whole host of reasons why instructors promote students and that it is not always their ability to handle themselves in a fight.  I certainly have seen some of this where I train.  And while I can respect that style of promotion, I do not agree with it.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 18, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> ATC are you saying she was pants at fighting because she was a woman and whatever grade she was she would still be rubbish?


Maybe that is not what ATC meant, but that is how it comes across.  

I have trained with enough women who can effectively punch and who can effectively handle themselves against larger male opponents that I cannot agree with the reasons put forth.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 18, 2009)

shinbushi said:


> In Thailand for Muay Thai Kids start fighting professionally around 6.  Full contact Muay Thai rules



The issue in this thread is not that the five year old is fighting competitively against other kids in the same age range but that she has a black belt.

Daniel


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## ATC (Oct 18, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> ATC are you saying she was pants at fighting because she was a woman and whatever grade she was she would still be rubbish?


No. First I am not saying she was rubbish. I am simply stating that size and weight make just as much a factor in any combat weather controlled or SD.

I can simply point to the fact that boxers only slightly off in size and weight (maybe 5 pound, 10 at the most) will sometimes have the bigger man just walking right through the smaller mans punches. While the smaller man gets rocked by jabs.

In my case I was up againt a smaller woman that clearly could hit me at will and I could not do the same to her in the context of the competition. But once I threw out the martial arts and simply decided that I will impose my will on a smaller person to avoid the emberassment I was taking she could not handle it.

I am currently a 2nd Dan and have sparred many color belts and black belt both below my rank and above. In all cases I have yet not been touched at all nor have I failed to touch any one single person.

I just find it strange that some find it hard to believe that anyone (even a 3rd Dan) should not be hit just because they are a 3rd Dan. Just being a 3rd Dan does not make you unhittable nor does it make you unable to be hurt. Anyone can hurt anyone.

Yes in general a 3rd Dan, 1st, 2nd, 4th and so on, should know how to side step any technique or counter any technique, but not all the time or every time. No one can. We all get hit, and if that hit happens to be a good one, then oh well. Even one we see coming, sometimes we just can't react fast enough. It happens, will continue to happen, even to the best of us.


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Oct 18, 2009)

I think the point that's trying to be made, ATC, isn't that a 3rd Dan should be untouchable, or that women have the ability to strike as hard or harder than men, but that a 3rd Dan should have the cunning to adapt to the situation and not rely solely on striking.

Think of it like this, I'm 5'5'', 16, and weighing in at a good 145. I can't strike at all, my wrists are tiny, my biceps insulting. Even when I throw in a technically perfect strike, the force behind it simply isn't much compared to other people in my dojo. Now yes, compared to a lot of the people who punch harder than me, I am technically more skilled, but I don't rely on my strikes to see me through a fight. I have good grappling skills, my throws are pretty excellent given my size, and learning to adapt to different fists (three finger strike, extended fist strike, what have you) also makes a difference, depending on where you intend to strike your opponent. And I'm a seventh kyu.

The point I'm trying to make isn't that a 3rd Dan should be able to out-strike or out-muscle any opponent, but should know their strengths and weaknesses and play to them.


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## still learning (Oct 18, 2009)

Hello,  There is NO rules to promoting anyone to Black Belt.  Inside of us we know what this means and stand for....and each person has there own beliefs on this "one" too...

...from all of the posting above...Most of us believes in our own minds a 5 year should not be wearing a Black Belt.

....promotions will always be a debatable subject...?

Until a set of rules is "acceptable" to ALL? ....endless debates forever!

Aloha,

PS: Do we trust our own teenagers with a CAR!    ...daughter has a brown belt in Judo...will a Black belt make a difference?


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Oct 18, 2009)

Still_Learning, we all talk back and forth about how we don't care about ranking, but truth be told, and I think most people here on MT will agree with me, we DO care about ranking. Maybe not to the extent that we train simply to get the next rainbow colored belt, but the sum of our experiences displayed publicly within the confines of our school. My new Kaju school has a saying that a black belt is a black belt because they've spent years sweating blood. Not because they spent years at the school, not because they sweated blood at one point, but it was a continuous occurrence that molded them into what they are. Simply put, putting a black belt on a five year old who, mathematically thinking, can only have been training for two years (from age three to five) then there is no way, even for a prodigy, to have the skills necessary to produce the sweating blood metaphor. Children don't have the attention span to concentrate on something long enough to mentally develop into a black belt, and their ever-changing body structure could not support black belt level conditioning, the effect of such acts would result in horrible muscle degeneration for the child.

Honestly, what I feel is being discussed here isn't the fact that the girl has a black belt around her waist, but the connotation of such belt implies that she has superb skills, which she simply CANNOT have at that age. Set in stone or simply idea in mind, the black belt should go synonymously with technical skill, application and mental knowledge, and at best a five year old can only have the former.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 18, 2009)

ATC said:


> In my case I was up againt a smaller woman that clearly could hit me at will and I could not do the same to her in the context of the competition. But once I threw out the martial arts and simply decided that I will impose my will on a smaller person to avoid the emberassment I was taking she could not handle it.


But by third dan, she should have been able to.  

I notice that you keep coming back to weight classes and competition.  Nobody is untouchable, as you said, but outside of competition, an attacker will usually be a larger stronger person trying to impose their will on a victim that they perceive as weak.  If a third dan's training is only applicable within their own gender and weight class, then honestly, they are not ready for third dan, unless they are training exclusively or primarily for sport and need the rank for bracketing in competition.

Shinobi Teikiatsu summed it up perfectly:



Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> I think the point that's trying to be made, ATC, isn't that a 3rd Dan should be untouchable, or that women have the ability to strike as hard or harder than men, but that a 3rd Dan should have the cunning to adapt to the situation and not rely solely on striking.



Daniel


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2009)

Daniel and Shinobi have exactly hit the points I was trying to make, thank you!

The Muay Thai children who fight do it out of necessity, my instructor goes out to Thailand regularly and has seen them fight, they do so to help support their families much in the same way their sisters are forced into the sex trade. It's not something that we can applaud happening, they should be in school not having to earn a living at 6.


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## ATC (Oct 18, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> I think the point that's trying to be made, ATC, isn't that a 3rd Dan should be untouchable, or that women have the ability to strike as hard or harder than men, but that a 3rd Dan should have the cunning to adapt to the situation and not rely solely on striking.
> 
> Think of it like this, I'm 5'5'', 16, and weighing in at a good 145. I can't strike at all, my wrists are tiny, my biceps insulting. Even when I throw in a technically perfect strike, the force behind it simply isn't much compared to other people in my dojo. Now yes, compared to a lot of the people who punch harder than me, I am technically more skilled, but I don't rely on my strikes to see me through a fight. I have good grappling skills, my throws are pretty excellent given my size, and learning to adapt to different fists (three finger strike, extended fist strike, what have you) also makes a difference, depending on where you intend to strike your opponent. And I'm a seventh kyu.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make isn't that a 3rd Dan should be able to out-strike or out-muscle any opponent, but should know their strengths and weaknesses and play to them.


Once again everyone seems to be tossing out the context of the situation and just applying should of's in their own context. Even if you want to throw out the context of the match and make it a free for all she still would have gotten overwhelmed.

I have done multiple styles of martial arts during my time and in all of them weight, size, and streangth are just as much a factor as experience, and sometimes can come more into play depending on the situation. If you think other wise then I think you are giving someone a false sense of confidence and I just hope they never have to be in any such situation where some bigger street tuff is in front of them.

We all give instructions of what to do when... But we cannot gurantee that anyone we teach can pull it off when needed. Just because it is said that this or that should be done, does not mean that it will happen. No matter what rank someone is. Reality is too dynamic and there are too many variables and there is no way we can act one each one all the time.

At this point I really don't know what point is trying to be made other than at 3 dan it is expected that you can and will counter all and every situation. OK if you belive that then good for you.


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Oct 18, 2009)

If your logic held true, ATC, then the martial arts would have gone extinct a long time ago. If all it took to be victorious was being bigger and stronger, then people would never practice martial arts to begin with. Think about it, naturally the bigger and stronger will dominate, and so people started to wonder how they could triumph without having to get bigger and stronger. The result? Technique. If you eliminate all possible variables, then you're stuck with a science and of course the meek will never overcome the strong. The fact of the matter is, if you say that you will always dominate because you're bigger, stronger and of the male gender, then you're just as jaded as those who say that X technique will work 100% of the time.


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## still learning (Oct 18, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> Still_Learning, we all talk back and forth about how we don't care about ranking, but truth be told, and I think most people here on MT will agree with me, we DO care about ranking. Maybe not to the extent that we train simply to get the next rainbow colored belt, but the sum of our experiences displayed publicly within the confines of our school. My new Kaju school has a saying that a black belt is a black belt because they've spent years sweating blood. Not because they spent years at the school, not because they sweated blood at one point, but it was a continuous occurrence that molded them into what they are. Simply put, putting a black belt on a five year old who, mathematically thinking, can only have been training for two years (from age three to five) then there is no way, even for a prodigy, to have the skills necessary to produce the sweating blood metaphor. Children don't have the attention span to concentrate on something long enough to mentally develop into a black belt, and their ever-changing body structure could not support black belt level conditioning, the effect of such acts would result in horrible muscle degeneration for the child.
> 
> Honestly, what I feel is being discussed here isn't the fact that the girl has a black belt around her waist, but the connotation of such belt implies that she has superb skills, which she simply CANNOT have at that age. Set in stone or simply idea in mind, the black belt should go synonymously with technical skill, application and mental knowledge, and at best a five year old can only have the former.


 
Hello, Well put!  ....Thank-you!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 18, 2009)

ATC said:


> Once again everyone seems to be tossing out the context of the situation and just applying should of's in their own context. Even if you want to throw out the context of the match and make it a free for all she still would have gotten overwhelmed.


Well, I did say that did I not?  The whole point of what we are saying is that if she cannot handle herself in a controlled match against a larger opponent, then in an actual violent encounter with a larger attacker, she has absolutely no chance.  And that should not be the case for a black belt, especially a third dan.



ATC said:


> I have done multiple styles of martial arts during my time and in all of them weight, size, and streangth are just as much a factor as experience, and sometimes can come more into play depending on the situation. If you think other wise then I think you are giving someone a false sense of confidence and I just hope they never have to be in any such situation where some bigger street tuff is in front of them.


Due to the perception of what a black belt represents, you are giving them a false sense of confidence if you put a third dan black belt on someone who cannot handle themselves in a fight against an inexperienced but bigger and/or stronger opponent, as having that belt will almost certainly tell them that they can.

This applies even more so to children who do not understand the role of size and strength.

Certainly, size and strength play a factor.  But they are not the only factors involved.  Anyone at third dan should understand power generation and be able to do so without muscling through the techniques.  That is the whole point of learning them.  I already covered basic footwork and strategy in previous posts, so I will not rehash those.



ATC said:


> this point I really don't know what point is trying to be made other than at 3 dan it is expected that you can and will counter all and every situation. OK if you belive that then good for you.


Nobody said that.  Go back and reread what was said by myself and Shinobi.  Neither of us said anything remotely similar to that.  The whole 3rd dan = superman/wonder-woman has been addressed; we know that it does not and have said so.  

Meaning you no disrespect, I find it puzzling that you do not seem to be apprehending what is being said.  In discussions about execution of techniques, you seem to know what you are talking about and you also seem fairly experienced.  Certainly, I have read enough of your post to know that you are an intelligent individual.  Perhaps our perspectives are simply very far apart. 

At this point, there is not much point in picking it apart any further.  We have all made our points and as such, can simply disagree agreeably.

I will say that the points that Shinobi and myself have made about how one should be able to handle themselves at a black belt level should make anyone do a double take at children receiving black belts for anything except competition bracketing.  And even then, I consider it highly inappropriate.

Daniel


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## Milt G. (Oct 18, 2009)

Hello,

I think five years old is way too young for even a junior black belt ranking...
But, what do I know...  It was not my promotion, and I am not the one who has to live with it.  

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Cirdan (Oct 19, 2009)

ATC said:


> We all give instructions of what to do when... But we cannot gurantee that anyone we teach can pull it off when needed. Just because it is said that this or that should be done, does not mean that it will happen. No matter what rank someone is. Reality is too dynamic and there are too many variables and there is no way we can act one each one all the time.


 
I guess that is why we teach students to be dynamic too. It is not about throwing in a technique and hoping it will work. It is about using core principles, adapt to the situation and MAKE it work.


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## ATC (Oct 19, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> I guess that is why we teach students to be dynamic too. It is not about throwing in a technique and hoping it will work. It is about using core principles, adapt to the situation and MAKE it work.


Wow...Evenyone alway states the obvious. Yes,yes,yes and yes again, all understood. But all I am saying is that you can't alway make it work all the time. If that is the case then you are god and good for you. Nothing is guaranteed. Sometimes you just miss. :shrug:


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## Cirdan (Oct 19, 2009)

ATC said:


> Wow...Evenyone alway states the obvious. Yes,yes,yes and yes again, all understood. But all I am saying is that you can't alway make it work all the time. If that is the case then you are god and good for you. Nothing is guaranteed. Sometimes you just miss. :shrug:


 
"Anyone can make an error. An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it"

By all means continue to pour mud in the waters, enjoy the swim.


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## ATC (Oct 19, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> "Anyone can make an error."


Yes and more than just once. Sometimes you string those errors togeather and you have a bad day. Sometimes it is your opponent that is causeing you to make those errors. And still yet you may be making those errors or mistakes because you are just over matched.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 19, 2009)

ATC said:


> Wow...Eveyone alway states the obvious.  Yes,yes,yes and yes again, all understood.


 
Yes, and so do you: 


ATC said:


> But all I am saying is that you can't alway make it work all the time....Nothing is guaranteed. Sometimes you just miss. :shrug:


Yes, we all get that.  Yes, sometimes you just miss.

But you are also missing an obvious point, one that has been made several times:  

The young lady that you described *did not* miss.  Her shortcoming is that she could not effectively generate power when she hit.  Had this not been the case, the outcome may (or may not) have been different, but my appraisal would be very different.  You certainly may have thought twice about doing what you did if her punches had actually hurt.  

The falling prey to a simplistic and easy to read technique at that point could be chalked up to her either having a bad day or simply having worn herself out or simply being freaked out by an unexpected tactic.

It is this in combination with the inability to generate power with hand techniques that brings up the questions.

It is obvious that we have different perspectives on this, so we may as well just leave it at that.  To relate this subject back to the OP:

Like it or not, the ability to effectively punch is a large part of all karate based styles.  

Young children in general and five year olds in particular cannot effectively punch, block attacks from adults, or even effectively kick, which is why they should not be handed karate black belts, as the one in the OP's story did.

Likewise, an adult who cannot genrate power and effectively punch has not learned one of *the* most basic and funemental skills of the art.  This should be dealt with and corrected before awarding a black belt in a karate based art, and yes, that includes taekwondo.  In spite of the emphasis on kicks in the WTF style sparring, hand strikes outnumber kicks by a good amount.  

Two of the factors that appear in virtually every answer on threads asking what a black belt should be able to do involved being able to execute the techniques with "snap and power."

Snap and power are generally beyond young children (ten and under).  By ten, if they started young, they are beginning to develop this.  But some students take longer to develop it.  Some never do.

That does not mean that they cannot continue to train or that they should quit karate.  But they should not be saddled with a black belt.

When someone who is not ready receives a black belt, they will inevitably wind up being told that the did not deserve it or wind up the subject of discussion about why they did not  deserve it.

Personally, I do not want to see my students become the subject of such a topic.  I do not control who gets promoted at the school where I train and teach, so if it happens, that is GM Kim's burden, not mine.  All that I can do is teach to the best of my ability.  

Thankfully, the responsibility of promoting students is not my own.  I do participate and give my input at testings, but ultimately, GM Kim decides who passes or fails.  

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 19, 2009)

ATC said:


> Yes and more than just once. Sometimes you string those errors togeather and you have a bad day. Sometimes it is your opponent that is causeing you to make those errors. And still yet you may be making those errors or mistakes because you are just over matched.


Now *that* I agree with.

Daniel


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## sfs982000 (Oct 19, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, and so do you:
> 
> Yes, we all get that. Yes, sometimes you just miss.
> 
> ...


 
I couldn't have put that last part together any better if I tried.  There really needs to be a seperate grading scale for children.  The majority of children out there studing martial arts are simply not ready for the responsibility that comes with a black belt (physically and mentally).  I would certainly never discourage a child from studing but there are alternate ways of keeping them motivated to continue training.  I see kids at my dojang running around with black belts and I just have to shake my head.  I mean I guess they were able to memorize the material well enough to pass the test, but again there is a certain responsibility that comes with the rank.


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## kingkong89 (Dec 13, 2009)

I find it hard to believe a five year old can get a black belt the youngest ive seen was a student i trained who was nine but for his age he was ready for cryin out loud i was in karate before her mother was probably in high school


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## Aikikitty (Dec 14, 2009)

kingkong89 said:


> I find it hard to believe a five year old can get a black belt the youngest ive seen was a student i trained who was nine but for his age he was ready for cryin out loud i was in karate before her mother was probably in high school


 
I quite died inside the other day when our secretary at work proudly told me that her daughter is a black belt at 9. That's way too young IMHO, but the worst of it was when she told me that her daughter hated the sparring and was losing interest so she bribed her daughter to stay with it until blackbelt by promising to buy her a laptop. A 9 year old with a blackbelt who had to be bribed by mom with a laptop. And why does a 9 year old even need a laptop anyway, but that's a different topic.

Our secretary has no clue I'm involved with martial arts myself. The first thing she'd ask is what rank I am (clearly that's all she knows or cares about) and she'd probably think I'm an idiot to take 8 1/2 years to get my shodan. I know that her daughter is really 1st Poom and not Dan, but her mom loves to point out that her girl is "black belt". For most people who don't know better, that's one and the same as an adult's b.b.  I hope her bragging doesn't get her daughter hurt someday by other kids hearing that and wanting to "test her out".

Robyn


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2009)

kingkong89 said:


> I find it hard to believe a five year old can get a black belt the youngest ive seen was a student i trained who was nine but for his age he was ready for cryin out loud i was in karate before her mother was probably in high school


I am normally not the sort to make mention of grammar and punctuation, but this is one of those run on sentences that seems to be without focus. In a typed format, puncutation is helpful, no offense.

Here is that I am getting from the above:

*You find it hard to believe that a five year old can get a black belt.* 
Fair enough. I too find it hard to believe that a five year old can earn a black belt in karate or taekwondo. Even a junior black belt.

*You saw a nine year old that you trained get a black belt, but for his age, he was ready for cryin out loud.* 
Black belt in what? Ready for what? How did you determine that he was ready? I am curious to know, though I do not agree that any nine year old should have a black belt placed around their dobok or gi.

And finally,

*You were in karate before her mother was probably in high school.*
Who's mother? The five year olds? And what does your time in karate have to do with the rest of your post?

I am not trying to give you a hard time; just trying to make sense of your post.

Daniel


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## kingkong89 (Dec 14, 2009)

To the opal dragon it sounds like your secratery is one of those moms that indulges themselves in bragging about what their child has done 

and to mr sullivan
the student earned his black belt in karate and ju jitsu
i knew he was ready by a couple observations one the way he carried himself he was very mature and learned the material very easily and could actually demonstrate and carry out the techniques better than most teenagers i had seen 

and the five year olds mother just saying that there are those of us out there that have spent most of our lives in the martial arts before we recieved our black belts it was a comment with a strange twist of humor so to speak


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## terryl965 (Dec 14, 2009)

kingkong89 said:


> I find it hard to believe a five year old can get a black belt the youngest ive seen was a student i trained who was nine but for his age he was ready for cryin out loud i was in karate before her mother was probably in high school


 
Please no five years old can fully understand the material to be a BB, not even a Junior BB. Any instructor that would even suggest this gives Martial Arts a bad name plan and simple.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 14, 2009)

kingkong89 said:


> To the opal dragon it sounds like your secratery is one of those moms that indulges themselves in bragging about what their child has done
> 
> and to mr sullivan
> the student earned his black belt in karate and ju jitsu
> ...


I appreciate the clarification!

Daniel


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## Andrew Green (Dec 14, 2009)

kingkong89 said:


> I find it hard to believe a five year old can get a black belt the youngest ive seen was a student i trained who was nine but for his age he was ready for cryin out loud i was in karate before her mother was probably in high school



You all take this way to seriously...  It's a belt, it means something within that particular school, not outside of it.

Chances are this girl has very impressive skills for a 5-year old.  She probably has better coordination and reflexes then other 5-year olds.  So what if she was motivated through coloured belts?

In BJJ the general rule is you have to be 16 to get a blue belt.  A rule that pretty much no other style follows.  But thats fine, belts are not equivalent across styles, or even schools. But there is no uproar over every young kid that gets a blue belt.

The BB is a mistake IMO, but for slightly different reasons.  Her accomplishments are likely impressive for a 5-year old.  Yet they will be ignored by many who can't see past the belt she has and that she is not as good as a 18-year old BB.  

Schools also like to frame a BB as the end goal ("We are a Black Belt School!"), once the goal is reached that's it, no more to do.  Especially at that age.  If they keep the promotion speed she'd be a 10th dan before her 10th birthday.  To go from testing and promotions every couple months to every few years would likely lead to a huge drop off when you are using promotions for goal setting.  Chances are you will lose all your most naturally talented kids very early because they where trained to go after goals, and the end goal was reached.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 14, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> You all take this way to seriously...  It's a belt, it means something within that particular school, not outside of it.
> 
> Chances are this girl has very impressive skills for a 5-year old.  She probably has better coordination and reflexes then other 5-year olds.  So what if she was motivated through coloured belts?
> 
> ...




I try hard not to add to this discussion very often, but Andrew has a good point. It's hard to make MA into a life-long pursuit when you've reached the "top" of the Art at a young age. Where do you go from there? My answer would be, "to the next thing." MA gets forgotten & it's on to piano or something else.


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## kingkong89 (Dec 15, 2009)

Its not the fact of the matter that we are taking this seriously that a five year old has recieved a bb but in a way we are yes a black belt is just that a peice of material that is black and you wear it but it is the principle a black belt holds a lot of meaning it is symbolic of any art


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## dbell (Dec 15, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> You all take this way to seriously...  It's a belt, it means something within that particular school, not outside of it.



This I disagree with, or there would not be so many complaints and disagreement about the 5 year old getting the belt here.  The belt also has meaning out side of the school.  It imparts that the person wearing it ached a level of understanding and training in a art that is pretty high.  It shows those outside the school in which it is given that this person is able to do their art fairly well, and probably able to teach it to some degree to others.  

Most of the schools that issue BB to younger people also seem to be heavily into competition.  Having a BB on (or Poon Belt) tells the Judges and other competitors that this person should know their stuff.

So it means something outside the school in which it is issued.



Andrew Green said:


> The BB is a mistake IMO, but for slightly different reasons.  Her accomplishments are likely impressive for a 5-year old.  Yet they will be ignored by many who can't see past the belt she has and that she is not as good as a 18-year old BB.



From your start of the message, I'm taking you are saying this is from within the school where it was issued itself?



Andrew Green said:


> Schools also like to frame a BB as the end goal ("We are a Black Belt School!"), once the goal is reached that's it, no more to do.  Especially at that age.  If they keep the promotion speed she'd be a 10th dan before her 10th birthday.  To go from testing and promotions every couple months to every few years would likely lead to a huge drop off when you are using promotions for goal setting.  Chances are you will lose all your most naturally talented kids very early because they where trained to go after goals, and the end goal was reached.



This I agree with.


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 15, 2009)

A child simply doesn't have the mental capacity to be a "black belt." Unless of course you do not ascribe any level of intelligence or wisdom to the rank. In that case we obviously have different definitions of what it means to attain and hold that rank.


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## xfighter88 (Dec 19, 2009)

I think you all are missing the opportunity presented here. All you have to do is find him and challenge him. Then you can say you totally beat up a Black Belt. So if you are an adult white belt looking to make a name for yourself, I say go for it.


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## kenpoman1216 (Dec 19, 2009)

i agree,most on the up schools do have junior and standard ranking are in place the requirements are much greater for the latter kenpoman1216


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## shesulsa (Dec 19, 2009)

xfighter88 said:


> I think you all are missing the opportunity presented here. All you have to do is find him and challenge him. Then you can say you totally beat up a Black Belt. So if you are an adult white belt looking to make a name for yourself, I say go for it.



Ha. Ha ha ha. Ha. :shrug:


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 19, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> A child simply doesn't have the mental capacity to be a "black belt." Unless of course you do not ascribe any level of intelligence or wisdom to the rank. In that case we obviously have different definitions of what it means to attain and hold that rank.



A child doesn't have the physical capacipty either. I may have only a 9th kyu ninjutsu (and a 3d kyu modern jj) but I bet dollars for pennies that I can kick 5 year old black belt ***


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## xfighter88 (Dec 20, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> A child doesn't have the physical capacipty either. I may have only a 9th kyu ninjutsu (and a 3d kyu modern jj) but I bet dollars for pennies that I can kick 5 year old black belt ***


 
Dear Lord let's hope so :dalek:


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