# Hakko-ryu & Kamishinkan Jujutsu similarities & differences



## jujutsu_indonesia

Hello all,

Kamishinkan and I will try to describe our systems, and later will discuss similarities and differences.

Let me start first by describing the Dentokan version of Hakko-ryu as taught to me by my sensei.

Please note that Dentokan is not the Hontai/mainline Hakko-ryu but an offshot created by Mr. Roy Hobbs, an ex Hakko-ryu shihan. So some of the description might be rather different with the mainline and to the other offshots.

Dentokan Jujutsu utilizes the same katas as Hakko-ryu uses, it is divided into Omote no Kata, Shihan-Gi, Kaiden-Gi and Sandaikichu-Gi. Each Katas are further divided into subdivisions, Omote has Shodan-Gi to Yondan-Gi, Shihan-Gi also has several levels, Kaiden-Gi as well, and so on. All in all there are about 200++ katas in Dentokan.

Techniques are done in Idori (both person sitting), Hanza Hantachi (one person standing, the defender sitting), Tachiai (both person facing each other) and Ushiro Waza (attacker behind the defender).

Most of the techniques utilizes redirections of the opponent's attacking or grabbing energy, which later converted into joint locks (mostly to the wrist and elbows), Otoshi (throwing with using the body as a fulcrum point) and Nage (throwing without using the body as a fulcrum). There is also a lot of Atemi (striking) but mostly using light to medium finger pressures to vital points on the attacker's body, similar to acupuncture points. This is to enable us to control the attacker without causing injury. Only in desperate situations we are allowed to use full force to the attacker's vital points.

All of the Katas of Dentokan are NOT meant to be used as self-defense techniques, but rather, as a vehicle to teach the principels of the Ryuha. After understanding the principles, the student will be taught how to apply the principles in self-defense situations. This is called Ohyo Waza.

For further information please visit www.dentokanhombu.com 

Your turn, Kamishinkan


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## kamishinkan

Well the art I study is Nippon Kobudo Kamishin Ryu. The actual "mainline" art is a Chinese/Korean lineaged art likened to Hapkido. One of the past head-families, Albert Church (Hobbs Shihan also trained with Church sensei before training with the Okuyama family), also trained in Nihon Jujutsu with several Jujutsu instructors. One of the last Jujutsu arts Church sensei trained in was Hakko Ryu under Shodai-Soke, Ryuho Okuyama. Church sensei added a systematic Jujutsu curricullum to parrallel the inherited art to train the students in formal Jujutsu waza. 
  Kamishin Ryu Jujutsu, is likened to most Jujutsu of Daito Ryu descent and is structured similarly to Hakko Ryu. Kamishin Ryu has Shodan waza lists through Yondan, Godan/Shihan waza up through the Shihan levels. Upper Shihan levels (after Godan) are mainly deeper principles underlaying all of the waza. Striking plays an important part of the waza (usually the waza is taught without the strikes and then strikes layered on after the waza is learned).
 Kamishin Ryu Jujutsu is taught in the same way as Hakko Ryu (and the other Daito lineaged Jujutsu arts as well), sitting, one sitting, one standing and both standing and rear techniques.
 We teach Henka (different variations) Oyo (different applications) of the techniques to further our "self defense" possibilities. 
 For more information on Kamishin Ryu go to www.kamishinryu.net 

Denny, I will be leaving tonight to go to Nicaragua (sp?) for one week on a missions trip. I will be back next Monday PM. I will check the thread when I get back, If you want you can let the thread "die" and revive it in a week, either way I look forward to sharing.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

From the descriptions above, it seems to me that Kamishin-ryu Jujutsu is very similar to Hakko-ryu. But since this art has Korean/Hapkido-like lineage in it, I'd like to ask about specific Hapkido-like techniques which are contained within. Do you have, say, all those multiple kicks one often associate with Hapkido?

PS: Hope your mission to Nicaragua be a successful one! Adios amigo! Stay safe!


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## kamishinkan

The Korean influenced "Hapkido like" techniques (In Kamishin Ryu we use "Hapkido like" because Hapkido is an exclusive art that we are not affiliated with) of Kamishin Ryu are classified today with our "Kempo" (Fist Method" or AKA "Go-Ken" (Hard Fist) side of the art. In these teachings we train in multiple kicking and also jump-spinning kicks usually related to Korean arts. Our kicking methods are taught slightly different in that we use more "snapping" style kicking which more easlily lends to our throwing and take down methods. 
 BTW, The missions trip was a huge success, thanks for the thoughts.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

Glad to hear that your mission is a success!

It's very interesting to hear about Korean-style kicking in your art. There are none of such things in the Dentokan style. Do you have ground fighting and sacrifice throws?


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## kamishinkan

In Kamishin Ryu, the ground fighting is based in the Judo/Jujutsu style. I train with (at times) a friend who teaches Brazilian style ground fighting, I must say that our ground defenses are not that elaborate but we do train at times off of the ground. We train quite a bit in sacrifice throwing. One of my favorite techniques! Any questions on our kicking principles, just let me know. If you also want to go through the Kamishin Ryu/Hakko Ryu Shodan lists to compare, we can do that as well.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

Sure thing, let's compare then. This is how our list looks like.

*Shodan Gi - First Level*.*Suwari Waza - Sitting Techniques*
1. Nukite - Draw Hand

2. Gyaku Kote Gaeshi - Reverse Wrist Turnover

3. Aiki Nage - Harmonious Spirit Throw

4. Hiza Gatame - Knee Hold

5. Ude Osae Dori - Arm Pin Art

6. Mune Osae Dori - Chest Pin Art

7. Uchi Komi Dori - Strike Inside Art
*Hantachi Waza  Half Standing Techniques*
8. Yoko Katate Osae Dori - Side One Hand Pin Art
*Isu Suware Waza - Chair Sitting Techniques*
9. Yoko Morote Osae Dori - Side Two Hand Pin Art
.*Tachi Waza - Standing Techniques*
10. Ryote Tori Zeme - Both Hands Grasp Attack

11. Tachi Ate - Standing Strike

12. Tachi Gyaku Kote Gaeshi - Standing Reverse Wrist Turnover

13. Hiki Nage  Pull Throw

14. Ude Osae Dori - Shoulder Pin Art

15. Mune Osae Dori - Chest Pin Art -

16. Ryo Ude Osae Dori - Both Arms Pin Art

17. Ryo Mune Osae Dori - Both Chest Pin Art

18. Uchi Komi Dori - Strike Inside Art

19. Ushiro Zeme Otoshi - Rear Attack Art

20. Katana Ushiro Zeme Otoshi - Sword Rear Attack Art -

21. Kubi Shime Dori - Neck Strangulation Art


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## kamishinkan

Ok here is the Kamishin Ryu Shodan Waza list:

*Suwari and Tachiai*

1. Kamishin Shomei Odori - Godly Heart Proof Dance

2. Kote Shomei Odori - Wrist Proof Dance

3. Te hana Odori - Hand Flower Dance

4. Ushiro Te Hana Odori - Reverse Hand Flower Dance

5. Yoko Tobi Nage - Side Flying Throw

6. Ude Otosu Odori - Arm Drop Dance

7. Kata Otosu Odori - Shoulder Drop Dance

8. Mune Otosu Odori - Chest Drop Dance

9. Nodo Otosu Odori - Throat Drop Dance

*Tachiai*

10. Taki Otosu Odori - Waterfall Drop Dance

11. Taki Nage - Waterfall Throw

12. Kubi Shime Odori - Neck Choke Dance

13. Shuto Otosu Odori - Knife Hand Drop Dance

14. Kao Tsuki Odori - Face Thrust Dance

15. Mune Tsuki Odori - Chest Thrust Dance

16. Nuki Tsuki Odori - Spear Thrust Dance

17. Ashi Geri Odori - Leg Kick Dance

18. Jodan Tsuki Seoi Nage - Upper Thrust Shoulder Throw

19. Chudan Tsuki Goshi Nage - Middle Thrust Hip Throw

20. Chudan Tsuki Ushiro Goshi Nage - Middle Thrust Reverse Hip Throw

21. Yoko Katate Osai Odori - Side Shoulder/Hand Press Dance

22. Mae Katate Osai Odori - Front Shoulder/Hand Press Dance

23. Mae Katate Osai Nage - Front Shoulder/Hand Press Throw

24. Kubi Yoko Nage - Neck Side Throw

25. Mae Uki Otoshi - Front Corner Drop


Hantachi techniques done as Oyo (different applications) of all techniques.


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## kamishinkan

Denny,

 In Hakko Ryu, the first technique is classified as "Hakko Dori". Is the Dentokan technique of "Nukite" a version of this technique?


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## jujutsu_indonesia

Yup, Hakko Dori is the same with Nukite. I think Mr. Hobbs changed it into Nukite which is more descriptive, rather than Hakko Dori which is rather "mysterious" name. Also, technique no 2 should be Tekagami, which means hands mirror, does not make any sense at all. So it is changed into gyaku kotegaeshi, much more descriptive.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

Ah, also Katana Ushiro Zemi Otoshi was Kasa Ushiro Zemi Otoshi. It's a form of throwing an opponent while we are holding a parasol, under the rain, without getting wet


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## kamishinkan

Ahhh, I see. As far as Tekagami, I may be able to shed some light on it.
We teach Tekagami as a variant to Te Hana Odori (all of these are variants on Kotegaeshi of Daito Ryu). Hand Mirror was used because after you flower out (actually the flower out part which is where Te Hana gets it's name, is no longer done at Hakko Ryu Honbu). You bring your hand up to a point in front of your face, at this point it is as if you are looking into a "hand mirror". In Kamishin Ryu we do not bring the hand up to the "hand mirror" point, we roll the hand over and then execute the "release" before the wrist reversal take down/throw.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

oh that's very interesting, thank you very much! Now I understand Te Hana 

What is Yoko Tobi Nage?


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## kamishinkan

Yoko Tobi Nage is a variant on Aiki Nage. The only difference is Aiki Nage
"drives" through the Uke's straight, locked back arm. Yoko Tobi Nage bends the back arm and "attacks" the armpit to throw.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

oh, but it means that we have yoko tobi nage, but not as a formal kata, it is considered as a henka of aiki nage.

do you have something like aikido's irimi nage? we don't have it in dentokan, but there are several henka of ushiro kubi shime dori (sandan-gi) that comes close. Also, if done correctly, several forms of aiki nage henka also looks like irimi nage.


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## kamishinkan

Yes, we practice Irimi Nage. Not sure where Church sensei learned it. It could of came from his prev. Aikijujutsu training or he may have picked it up from Suenaka sensei (Aikido Shihan), they were pretty close. Either way, I have stopped trying to figure it out, it's all "Aiki".


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## jujutsu_indonesia

I think we're not far off if we consider Kamishin-ryu Jujutsu as a personal Aiki Goshin-jutsu style of Mr. Church? With heavy infusions from Aikido, Hakko-ryu and the old Korean Kenpo art from Mr. Kim Chi Kooh?


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## kamishinkan

Pretty good conclusion, I would say that the heaviest infusion being Hakko Ryu but definately well influenced by the other Aiki based teachings. Keep in mind none of us felt/feel that Church sensei was trying to re-invent the wheel. He was just trying to teach the Jujutsu waza as parallel teachings that helped the student understand the "soft" aspects of our inherited art.
Too many students learned the waza seprately so to one it was all about Kempo or to the other it's all about Jujutsu...... The idea is eventually the student would be able to "flow" between the two, likened to the original teachings of the main art (kind of a combined thing...).


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## jujutsu_indonesia

is there any possibilities that Mr. Church were influenced by Mr. Kuniba in this "sogo budo/combine martial arts" idea? because Mr. Kuniba also created a combined art (kuniba goshin budo).


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## kamishinkan

I train with some guys that trained under Kuniba sensei in his Goshin Budo, although there are some similarities, conceptually they are pretty different. Harold Martin, Church sensei's top student, is with me in the Kamishinkan and told me that Church sensei told him that there was alot of cross training between him and Kuniba. Keep in mind they both had Judo, Jujutsu, and Karate/Kempo training, so they had alot in common to share. Also the art Church sensei inherited was considered a combined fist art by Kuniba and Hayashi sensei.


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## kamishinkan

Denny,

  I was wondering about the use of the pinky finger in the Dentokan....
Sounds funny I know but in the exposure I have had with Hakko Ryu Jujutsu the extension through the pinky finger is emphasized (deals with the meridian line). 
 In Kamishin Ryu Jujutsu we use the concept of extension through the pinky finger for take down waza and release waza and the index finger for throws. Slightly different but I was wondering how Hobbs Shihan explains it through the Dentokan.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

kamishinkan said:
			
		

> Denny,
> 
> I was wondering about the use of the pinky finger in the Dentokan....
> Sounds funny I know but in the exposure I have had with Hakko Ryu Jujutsu the extension through the pinky finger is emphasized (deals with the meridian line).
> In Kamishin Ryu Jujutsu we use the concept of extension through the pinky finger for take down waza and release waza and the index finger for throws. Slightly different but I was wondering how Hobbs Shihan explains it through the Dentokan.


 
I doesn't train directly under Hobbs shihan, but Haryo sensei does emphasize the pinky finger, for example, in doing Shodan Ude Osaedori, he said something like "move your hip to the right as if to stab your opponent's solar plexus with your right pinky". And in doing Gakun, he always extend his index finger.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

Anyway, do you know anything about the Takeshin-ryu Aiki Jujutsu style of Mr. Tony Annesi? My sensei has a couple of his videos and Mr.Annesi demonstrates nice Aiki nage techniques. I remember reading somewhere in the Net that Mr. Annesi is also a student of Mr. Church.


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## kamishinkan

Sorry to take so long to respond. I just got back from doing a seminar in southwest Virginia.
 As far as Annesi Sensei, He was trained in Aikido and Hakko Ryu Jujutsu before training in Kamishin Ryu. Because of his previous training, it was easy to learn the Kamishin Ryu curriculum. I have been to Annesi sensei's dojo (back in the late 90's) and he is probably one of the best Aiki instructors I have seen. Church sensei made him his "Ichi bon Deshi" (#1 student) of our "Aikijujutsu" ryugi. After Church sensei's death, Annesi sensei joined with Catherine Church in her Kamishin Ryu organization she created. Annesi sensei was made Soke-Dairi to her, I believe he left her organization in the mid 80's.
 Since then he has incorporated other "Aiki" styles to further develop his Takeshin Aikijujutsu. From what I experienced while at his dojo, It is a very effective "soft" styled Aiki art (in comparison to Kamishin Ryu). I was impressed!


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## jujutsu_indonesia

yes, I agree with your observations. I am impressed by his demos as well. Mr. Annesi demonstrates "hair grab no hand aiki nage" which are very advanced technique. 

My own sensei remarked that he learned the waza in 1987 and only in 2001 that he was able to do that properly 

(the waza goes like this. Uke grab tori's hair. Tori does not grab Uke, but uses Aiki to throw uke. Did Mr. Annesi show this to you?).

BTW, I read your article in the Christian martial artist website. Very nice.


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## kamishinkan

He did not show that to me. The week I was there he was also hosting black belt students from France (AikiGoshindo I think). Shihan Annesi used me as his Uke (he threw me all over his dojo!) and showed Takeshin Aiki waza that had evolved from Kamishin waza. His minimal motion Aiki is very impressive and from our conversations had evolved from Yondan level Kamishin Aiki waza. I need to get back up there and visit him again.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

Aiki Goshindo? that must be the martial art of maitre Roland Maroteaux, an expert Budoka.

You should ask Mr. Annesi to teach you that hair-grab waza   It's very impressive, really. My sensei is very small man, maybe only 165 cm, 60kg. But he is able to throw big Australian student, 180cm, 100kg, with this incredible waza.


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## kamishinkan

Yes it was some of his senior (black belt) students.
The next time I get up to Boston, I will ask him about the hair grab waza.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

I just learned an interesting technique, it starts like the makikomi in nidan-gi, but uke is thrown using a forward step instead of a backwards step. ever done that?


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## kamishinkan

I am not sure. 
 In Hakko Ryu Maki Komi, Uke grabs the Tori's upper arm and throws a punch. While you block the punch you trap the grabbing arm with your forearm and cut downward and step back to take down. 
 In Kamishin Ryu, we do this and instead of stepping back to takedown, we cut the arm also with the blocking arm (after the capture) and throw to the rear. Uke has to take a "forward roll break" fall or hit their head on the floor  . I don't think that is the same as what you are describing though.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

kamishinkan said:
			
		

> I am not sure.
> In Hakko Ryu Maki Komi, Uke grabs the Tori's upper arm and throws a punch. While you block the punch you trap the grabbing arm with your forearm and cut downward and step back to take down.


 
yep, that's how it's done in Dentokan.

Now, check out the third technique from this clip

www.geocities.com/talenta_psi_ui/advanced_aikijujutsu_2.zip

the technique I am telling you about looks like that, sort of. Whaddya think?


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## kamishinkan

No I have not seen that version. We do that take down (throw) but we usually teach it from wrist grabs at the basic level. We classify that as a reverse entering throw (ushiro irimi nage). The "reverse" part is because you use the back of the arm to throw.

Great clip! It appears to be Daito Ryu. Is that correct?


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## jujutsu_indonesia

Yep, they are from a Daito-ryu friendship demonstrations conducted long ago, when Mochizuki sensei were still alive. I think I got more somewhere in my sensei's server. Want more?


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## kamishinkan

Once again, sorry it took so long to respond, I have been out of town again.
I would love to see more of the footage. Very interesting!


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## jujutsu_indonesia

here is one, hope it still works

www.geocities.com/talenta_psi_ui/advanced_aiki_jujutsu.zip

do you notice that this thread has gone three pages, and there are only two people (us) talking?   kind of proving the fact that it only takes two serious people, whom are respectful to each other and genuinely wants to share information, to make an interesting and lasting discussion?


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## kamishinkan

The link downloaded a rather good song called "Holy" by a Jason Morant? 
I did not get any Jujutsu footage though. Maybe it has been changed.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

ahh, that's very strange, how could it happened? perhaps trying the Right Click then SAVE AS trick will work?

If not, please PM me your email address, and I'll ask sensei to forward the videoclip directly to your mailbox!


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## kamishinkan

The link worked (probably user error!)  
Great footage! Thanks for sending the link.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

glad it works! what do you think about the wazas?


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## kamishinkan

Good stuff. We do many of those waza in our Nidan waza list.
Thanks for the clips.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

my sensei asked about the possibilities of video exchanges between us, is it possible? We are very interested to see your techniques, and maybe you be interested in seeing ours. After all, the written words are very limited media. Whaddya think?


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