# Do Booj guys spar?



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Dec 23, 2004)

My experience in training with BBT gents has been a mixed bag. When doing taijutsu, I know I can count on getting my fingers and toes twisted in ways I didn't know were anatomically possible, and even find myself in absurd joint positions of the knees and elbow/shoulder complex. That having been said, I come from MA's with heavy contact emphases (sparring, grappling, kendo) and have noticed that many of the bujinkan and ex-booj guys seem to have never seen a 3-step combo before. On the ground, I could easily navigate my training partners with the BJJ schtick, but (again) would find myself being harrassed by moves not used in BJJ (i.e., got a guy in mounted sankaku jime, and he's twisting my pinky toe out of socket...neat harassment, but hardly enough to prevent a plethora of possible damage from my top position).

The first impression I get is that there isn't a lot of time spent exchanging techniques in a competitive vein (kumite, randori). Yet, some exchange must occur, because I get my parts torqued every time. And the jutaijutsu setups and executions are wicked kewl in practice...I can't imagine they got this refined or lasted this long (evolutionarily) without their effectiveness being tested against uncooperative uke's.

So...if you don't spar or wrassle, how do you train for handling continuous, non-compliant athletic aggression?

Regards,

Dave

PS -- My limited experience in this has been with ex TSKSR guys as a youngster, and booj & ex-booj practitioners as a grow'd up.

Thx.


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## DWeidman (Dec 23, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> My experience in training with BBT gents has been a mixed bag.
> The first impression I get is that there isn't a lot of time spent exchanging techniques in a competitive vein (kumite, randori).
> So...if you don't spar or wrassle, how do you train for handling continuous, non-compliant athletic aggression?
> 
> ...


Dave - 

In all honesty - your millage may vary (YMMV) - some of us spend years speed testing it - others don't.  There isn't a generic answer - as the organization doesn't sit on either side of the sparring debate.

Sorry for such a vague answer...

-Daniel


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Dec 23, 2004)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> Dave -
> 
> In all honesty - your millage may vary (YMMV) - some of us spend years speed testing it - others don't. There isn't a generic answer - as the organization doesn't sit on either side of the sparring debate.
> 
> ...


Ey.  It's a start.  Thank you.

D.


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## DWeidman (Dec 23, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Ey. It's a start. Thank you.
> 
> D.


I find the same complaint - for what it is worth - 

A broken finger is nothing compared to redering the opponent unconscious / dead....

A lot of people don't realize what the "fighting class" cares about (or doesn't care about)...

-Daniel


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## Phipps (Dec 23, 2004)

I find that this will vary.  Some clubs do spar on a regular basis.  Others (like where I train) do drills starting with the basic technique and expand the situation from there.  (Apply the technique against a punch.  Circle with the opponent and give him and opening and then perform the technique.) 

 Afterwards we will work the technique with some resistance either seeing if you have the opponent compromised enough that you can do the technique and if that does not work then taking the resistance and turning it into something else.  Not quite sparring but for beginners it helps stop the habit of forcing on techniques.

 Later on when you are comfortable with the techniques the risk of developing bad habits from sparring is reduced.  This is mainly because you start to loose the desire to force on techniques and you want to learn not win.  When I first began Budo Taijutsu as soon as it became too much of a competition I began to let my techniques go. This is not so much of a problem now but I see it with the less experienced students all the time.

 I don't emphasize sparring when teaching a class because in martial arts with which I was involved in the past I sparred often and I didn't get as much benefit from it as the scenario approach that I have learned in the Bujinkan.  I must mention that this approach relies on you having good uke's.  The uke should let you learn the basics of the techniques and then start telling you where your gaps.  As a uke you are practicing attacking so you should be asking questions.  Am I on balance?  Is my opponent open?  Do I have the time to do a counter?  Is my opponent relying on being much faster than me?  Can I offer any resistance?  With an uke that is helping you learn not by being compliant but by as you progress in training increasing their resistance and helping you find the holes that is how Bujinkan members prepare for real encounters.  In a sparring situation it happens and it is over so you may not have a chance to find out what happened or what went wrong.

 Sorry guys for the novel I just gave a speech to my class about their friendly attitude towards each other.  We are here to help save each others lives not our feelings.  Attack them for real or you are wasting their time.

 Anton Phipps


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## Lawman85 (Dec 23, 2004)

I've looked into this quite a bit since I've been with the Bujinkan. I always wanted to know the benefits/drawbacks to sparring or not sparring. At the Tai Kai's and on Sensei's tapes it appears the Shihan are throwing pretty good punches, but, of course, the fight doesn't last very long. Watching all of that and experiencing the helplessness at the hands of a Shihan, I realized that a sparring match would not last very long with an experienced student. I believe we develop our fight proficiency through the gradual increase in resistance and speed as stated by Mr. Phipps. 

I do believe sparring can be beneficially in certain ways. When teaching recruits at the police academy we have them put on some headgear and boxing gloves and let them go at it for 3 mins or so. This doesn't really teach them any technique, but they learn what it is like to get hit. Most police recruits have never been in a fight, had a broken nose, or their "bell rattled". That teaches them what it's like to get hit, in a controlled manner. 

Just my .02.


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## Kreth (Dec 24, 2004)

I think it's important to do at least a bit of sparring. With beginning students, of course, everything should be carefully controlled. The key is training with realism without things degenerating into a brawl where no one learns anything.
Also, I think it's important to get smacked/choked/locked occasionally during your training. If the first time you experience a solid shot to the body is in a real situation, it will cause a bit of a shock, as your body/brain will be trying to evaluate this new situation. This will hinder your attempt to successfully defend yourself.

Jeff


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## Tenjin (Feb 1, 2005)

People from sparring arts want to spar, good for them. I have never seen sparring in the Bujinkan and I consider this a good thing.  I'll score points when I shoot hoops with my buddies, not in class. 

Lets be 100% honest, sparring is not fighting and not even like fighting. Sparring only demonstrates how good you are at sparring, nothing else. You can't obviously attempt to kill or seriously injure your partner while sparring, so how is this some mystical way or teaching real fighting over kata or free response training? 

The intensity can be jacked up in training without resorting to this type of "competitive" drill, that undoubtably leads to sloppy form, and uncommited, unrealistic attacks. I wont even get into how 99.9999% of the sparring I see ignores realistic variables such as terrain, manner of dress, lighting conditions and weapons. Sparring is exercise, not fighting.


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## Tengu6 (Feb 1, 2005)

I really agree with Tenjin on this, sport is sport, fighting is an entirely different animal. That being said there is something do benefit from sparring. It really is not "Do" you spar....but "How" you spar. Real attacks rarely begin with two guys sqaring off and trading blows...........it is usualy an ambush or unseen attack. One benefit of sparring is to gain insign into the "entrance" of a fight.......the part where the first attack is launched.......really beyond that is a bunch of "I would have done this (or that) if it were for real".

Try this:

Pad up fully (headgear, etc....) put the tori in the center of the mats and surround him/her with potential uke's. Have the tori close thier eyes. walk the outside of the "circle" and tap an uke on the shoulder. The selected uke pushes the tori in the direction they (uke) are facing and follow up with a punch to the head. Tori's job is to gain stability from the push and see if they can prevent the punch.

Various drills can result from this one using sensitivity and some controlled response.

Blindfolded grappling is good too done in the same manner.

Sparring can be used as a tool to test aspects of response but certainly are no indication that you will win in a real fight as each person will bring thier own dynamics that can only be present in a true "survival" situation.

IMO, padded asailent adrenal training is very beneficial, especialy if you do not know the attacker. these training drills will put your ego into perspective for sure.

Mark Bush


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## Kreth (Feb 1, 2005)

Tenjin said:
			
		

> People from sparring arts want to spar, good for them. I have never seen sparring in the Bujinkan and I consider this a good thing.  I'll score points when I shoot hoops with my buddies, not in class.


I wasn't referring to point sparring (which I think is nothing more than an elaborate game of tag), I meant a randori-type exercise...


> I wont even get into how 99.9999% of the sparring I see ignores realistic variables such as terrain, manner of dress, lighting conditions and weapons. Sparring is exercise, not fighting.


All of these can be factored into a sparring exercise...

Jeff


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## KyleShort (Feb 1, 2005)

Don't make the mistake of confusing sparring and "point sparring".  I did, TKD, I know what point sparring is about.

Sparring in the Judo randori sense is VERY different and absolutely crucial to skill training.  Nothing teaches how to deal with the dynamics of a fight, and the mindset & adrenaline involved, than like training with a resistant partner.  Note that most forms of wrestling, boxing, sambo, muy thai, kumite, kuosho etc. do this.

That having been said, I trained 4-5 days a week for 2 years in the Bujinkan.  In my dojo, there was almost ZERO sparring or drills against resisting opponents.  Everything was compliant-uke-scenario-based.  In addition, I too never saw 3 attack + combos.  Now this may be unique to my dojo...I don't know.

I learned a lot of good stuf with BBT, but that type of training just was not my style.  In escrima we do both controlled and free, full contact sparring (no points) and you learn very fast what works and what does not.  You also learn that assaults occur in flurries.  In Sambo we "roll" freely with each other in the same sense.

Now BBT with regular randori or pointless full contact sparring...that would be fun =)  Of course something to consider is that arts that do this type of training have a much smaller following and much higher drop out rate.


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## Tenjin (Feb 1, 2005)

> Sparring in the Judo randori sense is VERY different and absolutely crucial to skill training. Nothing teaches how to deal with the dynamics of a fight, and the mindset & adrenaline involved, than like training with a resistant partner. Note that most forms of wrestling, boxing, sambo, muy thai, kumite, kuosho etc. do this.


Resistent partners become far less so when they are wondering where their eyeball is. We use strikes to set up grappling techniques for a reason.



> In addition, I too never saw 3 attack + combos.


Many of the "traditional katas" are against 3+ attack combos, so I'm not sure how you never saw them.

What some of you are calling sparring I have heard referred to as "free response" so maybe we are talking about the same thing and just using another name. Free response still requires uke to be uke however else things might very well get broken off, which is probably not conducive to long term training.

Take into account that many of our techniques are hitting uke as he is entering which makes the force of the blow much worse than if he is standing still when you hit him. If you have two guys coming in fast, both being tori someone is going to get hurt.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Feb 1, 2005)

Tenjin said:
			
		

> If you have two guys coming in fast, both being tori someone is going to get hurt.


"In real combat, uke thinks he is tori.":ultracool 

I saw a video clip of two of Moshe Kastiel's students do free sparring somewhere - I swear it looked just like Leung Ting WingTsun.


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## KyleShort (Feb 3, 2005)

In Sambo / Catch Wrestling we set up our moves with strikes too.  And in Escrima, well its all about striking =)  The thing is, in your training the strikes ALWAYS seem to work to set the opponent up.  This type of training rarely accounts for missing, or a strike that simply did not have the intended effect.  Its that addition of these variables that make the training dynamic.

"Resistent partners become far less so when they are wondering where their eyeball is. We use strikes to set up grappling techniques for a reason."

That's great Tenjin, but rather than dicussing why and how your techniques work...you should consider why and how they don't work...because all techniques fail under certain conditions.  Train for both.

Also, sparring is not just about grappling and I used judo randori as an example.  Only in sparring do you really learn about subtle stance adjustment, real time footwork adjustment and modifying your practiced techniques to work for the specifics of the DYNAMIC situation.  This is crucial experience IMO...but to each his own =)


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## Tenjin (Feb 3, 2005)

My entire point is that sparring is just as "fake" and "unrealistic" as the regular form of training.  You are still pulling and so is your partner.  Lets not mention that sparring is only going to lead to sloppy overall technique and bad habits.  



> That's great Tenjin, but rather than dicussing why and how your techniques work...you should consider why and how they don't work...because all techniques fail under certain conditions. Train for both.


Tenjin is a deity of wisdom, my name is Lance, heya.  YOu "miss" in training all the time, even in just normal kata training.  Its at these times that you change the technique (henka), not during a battle royal, ego contest.


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## r.severe (Feb 4, 2005)

The class in which I have.. sparring is almost every class.
Sparring is one on one, two against one, group against a group and weapony sparring in the same manner.
Sparring is a no rules deal here.. but manners are.. so it is almost anything goes.. without biting, eye claws, finger or toe breaking and groin crushing..
Standing or ground.. 

Mainly mouth pieces and 14 OZ gloves are used unarmed sparring and weaponry it depends on the tools used what protevtion is used.
At t9imes the vote is to use Shooto type gloves.. when the guys wish to focus on tackles and takedowns..

I am a hard core person when it comes to having students spar and spar on a regular basis. There is NO fancy BS to hide the many mistakes that can be made under stress of someone beating you up...

I feel sparring is a great way to warm the class up fresh off the street or out of their office mind set..
When we do start class this way it always feels right or wholesome afterwards..

But..
I'm only license as a Bujinkan senior student of Hatsumi sensei and not a member anymore.. but I did the same class program when I was a paid card member of the shidoshikai.. and Bujinkan Dojo...

You can view many many photos of the sparring on my web site.. proof is in the photos..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Shizen Shigoku (Feb 4, 2005)

Simultaneous discussion going on here: 


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21401

Should these two threads be merged? Or should we keep the traditional-specific separate from the more general?


Oh yeah . . .

". . . it is the song that never ends . . ."


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## Don Roley (Feb 7, 2005)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> Simultaneous discussion going on here:
> 
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21401
> ...



I think this thread talks about how things are done in Japan. The other thread is in the general section and can include wider viewpoints such as Toshindo and other offshoots. This thread can serve as a source for people who want to talk about how Hatsumi and liscensed members/ instructors of his Bujinkan orginization do things, while the other thread can talk about the possible benifits and advantages as seen by a variety of sources.


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## Dale Seago (Feb 10, 2005)

In a post on that other thread I talked a little about the potential for free-response work within the context of kata training using the first taijutsu kata of Gyokko ryu, _koku_, as an example. I began with a bit of an examination of what -- to me -- the kata is "about"; and I concluded by pointing out that if you approach it with that sort of perspective, then



> . . .the specific way any or all of this manifests after the initial punch is launched is infinitely variable.
> 
> And that's what we work up to dealing with. And so far I'm only talking about the unarmed taijutsu kata; this year we're doing all kinds of applications with rokushakubo and tachi as well.
> 
> It's still _Koku_, but there's room for all kinds of wild free-response stuff within that space.



However, I didn't really get into just how we "work up to dealing with" things that way, so I'll do that here. Mind you, I'm not suggesting that this, specifically, is what you need to do: It simply is the approach we used in class the other night.

We began with the formal _densho_ transmission recipe. Well, dang, there's a problem right there because there's nothing that mandates just exactly what kick to uke's leg is supposed to be done, or which leg tori does it with. So we did it a number of ways, each of which can make the ultimate outcome just a bit different.

From there I showed a number of examples of how, by changing distance and angle and the overall "shape of the space" at various points, you can do a lot of interesting things (inluding sneaky use of knives and other weapons) while still recognizably maintaining the "feeling" of the kata.

Then I had everyone focus on the part that comes right after we introduce our good friend Ken Kudaki, where we move to draw the kick: I had everyone take some time to really work on finding/creating the conditions that make uke really want to do it. If tori isn't doing things correctly and uke doesn't feel like kicking, he shouldn't do it.

Mind you, up to this point everyone's just trying to do pretty much what I'm showing them, including the _henka_ or variations. From this point, things change.

Next step after that was for tori to continue trying to move in a way that would "bait" the kick, and of course I pointed out that you need to become a master baiter for success in this art.   What was different now was that, if things weren't "right", not only should uke not kick, he should instead continue his attack in some other way which felt more appropriate to him and take tori out. This gave tori a chance to get a good sense of the potential consequences of not being in the right place at the right time, and further refined his understanding of when and where that place is.

Next step after that was for tori to continue going to that "sweet spot" for the kick -- but now uke was not to do the kick even though it was obviously the "best" thing to do. Instead, he should do something -- anything! -- else. There was a dual purpose to this: (1) for uke to be able to really understand how much less effective anything but that kick will be (even though the kick won't work either!), and (2) for tori to also really understand how easy anything else is to exploit from there, and also to work on dealing effectively with whatever actually happens rather than with some specific, anticipated attack. (As I pointed out, not every potential attacker will have a punching/kicking training background: They might have done some boxing, some high school wrestling, or have no formal training of any kind, and kicking might not even occur to them as an option.) What uke and tori did in this phase was totally unscripted for both partners.

I demonstrated that part at full speed with a few folks, then turned everyone loose to work on it at whatever speed they wished, suggesting that they begin fairly slow and ramp up from there to find their own "stress level" and begin working through it. The black belts were going full-bore right off the bat, of course, but everyone was getting the opportunity for creative free response at whatever level they could handle at the time.

Interestingly, we had a first-time visitor watching the class. He'd never seen Bujinkan budo and wanted to check it out, and his own background is in tae kwon do and Brazilian jujitsu -- both of which, of course, have a heavy sparring emphasis. So it was natural for him at the beginning of class, to ask me whether we spar. I told him that -- in the sense in which he's accustomed to using the term -- we don't, but that we do have free-response work incorporated into the training and that he'd understand better what I meant by the end of the class.

When we finished I went over to him and told him I hoped he'd enjoyed watching. His response was to ask how much the training costs and when he can start.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 10, 2005)

Thank you. In this universe, there are multiple ways to skin a cat.

D.


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