# MCM Single Hand Chi Sao. No Bong



## futsaowingchun (Oct 19, 2021)

In this video I show my version of the single hand chi sao or  Don chi. First off I do not use the traditional Bong Sao..I do not use elbow on the  Centerline or Centerline theory is needed..In the video I will explain my reasons for it. This video is a continuation of my other video I made "Defending the Centerline Elbow out.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 19, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> I do not use the traditional Bong Sao..


I believe your arm extension principle is superior than the WC Bong Shou principle. The extend arm can integrate both defense and offense together.


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## futsaowingchun (Oct 20, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I believe your arm extension principle is superior than the WC Bong Shou principle. The extend arm can integrate both defense and offense together.


yes,, your right that was the whole point of the video..Thanks.


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## Callen (Oct 20, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> In this video I show my version of the single hand chi sao or Don chi. First off I do not use the traditional Bong Sao..



Actually, you do use the bong that Dan Chi Sau teaches... every time you do two-handed Chi Sau.

All Wing Chun drills should be dependent upon the attributes and skills that are being developed. IMO, it is in our best interest to keep in mind which Wing Chun concepts and principles the drills are teaching us as they relate to the system as a whole. For example, Dan Chi Sau develops Yi Bong, and the Lap Sau Drill develops Paau Bong (among other things). These are two completely different uses of bong (with different energy and projection) that need to be properly established separately. If you remove Yi Bong from Dan Chi Sau, you are changing the drill’s purpose of development. Likewise, leaving out bong no longer allows Dan Chi Sau to be utilized as an effective training tool for two-handed Chi Sau... causing a ripple effect.

Dan Chi Sau is typically trained with a midline counter punch from the Jam Sau for several key reasons:

To develop shifting/rolling bong action against pressure, to train proper pinning elbow position for correct controlling and hitting, and most importantly as a precursor to two-handed Chi Sau (again, part of which is reinforcing Yi Bong development).

That said, if your training partner fires off a solid midline counter punch from a proper Jam  Sau in Dan Chi Sau, a Biu Sau response to a midline attack would most likely get you hit. At the very least, you’re setting yourself up to trade hits. And that's not a good training habit.

Respectfully, have you thought about introducing your Biu Sau response in Dan Chi Sau as an additional action (and not omitting bong altogether)? As an alternative, you could keep the midline attack from Jum Sau so the drill still develops Yi Bong, but also add a separate high attack to allow for your Biu Sau counter. That way you can use Biu Sau in Dan Chi Sau and it will not come at the expense of leaving out other key attributes or skill development, such as bong and Chi Sau.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> I do not use the traditional Bong Sao.


If you use a 45 degree upward Bong Shou, the function should be the same as the spear fingers. It also adds in the spiral effect to bounce your opponent's arm away..


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 20, 2021)

We should probably talk about bong sao outside of WC, since WC contains a microcosm of bong sao, and 绑 can mean a lot of things.


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## futsaowingchun (Oct 21, 2021)

Callen said:


> Actually, you do use the bong that Dan Chi Sau teaches... every time you do two-handed Chi Sau.
> 
> All Wing Chun drills should be dependent upon the attributes and skills that are being developed. IMO, it is in our best interest to keep in mind which Wing Chun concepts and principles the drills are teaching us as they relate to the system as a whole. For example, Dan Chi Sau develops Yi Bong, and the Lap Sau Drill develops Paau Bong (among other things). These are two completely different uses of bong (with different energy and projection) that need to be properly established separately. If you remove Yi Bong from Dan Chi Sau, you are changing the drill’s purpose of development. Likewise, leaving out bong no longer allows Dan Chi Sau to be utilized as an effective training tool for two-handed Chi Sau... causing a ripple effect.
> 
> ...




In the drill am not using Biu sao as you stated am using a Bil Gee. I look at Bong as 1 thing used different ways but i feel the don chi drill is better if bong is left out.. If fell its a weak drill take developes bad habits.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> In the drill am not using Biu sao as you stated am using a Bil Gee. I look at Bong as 1 thing used different ways but i feel the don chi drill is better if bong is left out.. If fell its a weak drill take developes bad habits.


Agree! One time I threw a right punch at a WC instructor, he used his right Bong Shou to block my right punch - a wrong Bong.

IMO, when the fists are flying, it's very difficult to decide when to use Bong Shou and when should not use Bong Shou.

Example of wrong Bong.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 21, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> In the drill am not using Biu sao as you stated am using a Bil Gee.


It's all 鏢指手, and pronounced "biu ji sao", and you don't need to capitalize it.

It predates Wing Chun by quite a long time, mostly southern Shaolin Crane technique, because of its Wu Xing element (muk, wood) and the squeezing involved.  That's why a demo showing just one 手 is half the picture, and that's being generous.

Do a demo with both hands, and have the other guy really resist you.  That would be interesting.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 22, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! One time I threw a right punch at a WC instructor, he used his right Bong Shou to block my right punch - a wrong Bong.
> 
> IMO, when the fists are flying, it's very difficult to decide when to use Bong Shou and when should not use Bong Shou.
> 
> ...





Five Family Bong Sao.  The Crane's wing tying arm exposes the rising Loong Xing Mo Qiao of Chan master Daai Yuk, the Southern Dragon of Wa Sau Toi, and its infinite permutations.  As the kuen poem says, it reveals itself only to vanish.

Wing Chun lies within the broader context of the southern arts from which it, like the Southern Dragon, was born.  So I always find Wing Chun Bong Sao discussions interesting because it's often a chance to enlighten Wing Chun enthusiasts about something they love to argue over.  But these techniques are common in non-Chinese boxing styles, because they work.

Here's your fixed bong.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/3aantz


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 22, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> View attachment 27463
> Five Family Bong Sao.  The Crane's wing tying arm exposes the rising Loong Xing Mo Qiao of Chan master Daai Yuk, the Southern Dragon of Wa Sau Toi, and its infinite permutations.  As the kuen poem says, it reveals itself only to vanish.
> 
> Wing Chun lies within the broader context of the southern arts from which it, like the Southern Dragon, was born.  So I always find Wing Chun Bong Sao discussions interesting because it's often a chance to enlighten Wing Chun enthusiasts about something they love to argue over.  But these techniques are common in non-Chinese boxing styles, because they work.
> ...


To use

- left Bong to block right punch make sense (your exposed elbow won't cause problem).
- right Bong to block right punch doesn't make sense (your exposed elbow may cause problem).

The issue is during the fists flying situation, it's very easy to use your Bong in the wrong moment. Your exposed elbow will give your opponent a chance to lock on your elbow joint.

- You throw a right punch.
- Your opponent uses right Bong.
- Your right hand push down on his wrist joint. Your left hand push up on his elbow joint.


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## futsaowingchun (Oct 22, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's all 鏢指手, and pronounced "biu ji sao", and you don't need to capitalize it.
> 
> It predates Wing Chun by quite a long time, mostly southern Shaolin Crane technique, because of its Wu Xing element (muk, wood) and the squeezing involved.  That's why a demo showing just one 手 is half the picture, and that's being generous.
> 
> Do a demo with both hands, and have the other guy really resist you.  That would be interesting.


The other guy will tell you he won't be able to stop me.. he has tried many, many times..


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## geezer (Oct 22, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The issue is during the fists flying situation, it's very easy to use your Bong in the wrong moment. Your exposed elbow will give your opponent a chance to lock on your elbow joint.
> 
> - You throw a right punch.
> - Your opponent uses right Bong.
> - Your right hand push down on his wrist joint. Your left hand push up on his elbow joint.


To our way of thinking, bong should be flexible and elastic, and is literally formed by the pressure of your opponent's attack crossing your bridge and flexing your arm. So there is* no*_ "wrong bong"._ There is, however, _"cross bong"_ (left bong against a left punch or right bong against a right), and cross-bong can leave you vulnerable.

So, it is useful to bear in mind the old saying that "bong never stays" and instantly transition into the next technique. Remember, any bong is defensive and should be followed  by and attack, and especially cross-bong.

In fact,  we train to counter the_ same grappling sequence_ you describe above. The very instant our opponent grapples our wrist downward and our elbow upward, they have committed the "error" of _putting two arms on one_. This allows us to launch many counterattacks, the quickest and most efficacious being a simple straight punch rising up under the bong as our opponent tries to lift our elbow upward (kiu-dai chung kuen).

BTW this is just_ one _example and it is the first in a series of such techniques practiced in a sort of WC "flow drill". So to summarize, there is no absolute "wrong bong" ...it's just "cross-bong" which comes with certain inherent risks (as do many techniques). The solution is to be aware of those liabilities and train to deal with them.


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## geezer (Oct 22, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> View attachment 27463
> Five Family Bong Sao.  The Crane's wing tying arm exposes the rising Loong Xing Mo Qiao of Chan master Daai Yuk, the Southern Dragon of Wa Sau Toi, and its infinite permutations.  *As the kuen poem says, it reveals itself only to vanish.*


Yes. Bong has many forms, and _bong never stays._



Oily Dragon said:


> Wing Chun lies within the broader context of the southern arts from which it, like the Southern Dragon, was born.... *these techniques are common in non-Chinese boxing styles, because they work.*
> 
> Absolutely. Thank you for that post. It's nice to learn more about WC within the context of southern short-bridge styles, as well as  parallels in western boxing


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 22, 2021)

geezer said:


> "bong never stays"


I do agree that everything change in fast speed and Bong may never stay. The issue is as long as the "intention" is there, the risk will be there.

When you push up on your opponent's elbow joint, he will respond. You can then take advantage on his respond. When your opponent responds to your elbow control (such as to drop his elbow), your wrist control hand already punch on his face. If he tries to punch you with another hand, it gives you a chance to control his other arm and use one arm to pin against his other arm.

In other words, the moment that you expose your elbow, you are 1 step behind your opponent (because your opponent starts to force you to respond to his move).


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 22, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The issue is during the fists flying situation, it's very easy to use your Bong in the wrong moment. Your exposed elbow will give your opponent a chance to lock on your elbow joint.



This is a big reason these styles are taught ambidextrously, to become instinctive about which side to use.

Floyd is orthodox, so his Philly bong sao roll is almost always his left, followed by his counter power right.  

But imagine if he was able to roll as easily with his right arm.  He'd be twice as good as he is, and that's a lot.

I suddenly want makiushi.  With cream cheese.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 22, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> The other guy will tell you he won't be able to stop me.. he has tried many, many times..



Mass matters.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 22, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> The other guy will tell you he won't be able to stop me.. he has tried many, many times..


Do you agree that the person on top always has the weight advantage?

I assume we are discussing situation in general and not any special case.


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## geezer (Oct 22, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> ....In other words, the moment that you expose your elbow, you are 1 step behind your opponent (because your opponent starts to force you to respond to his move).


If you throw out your bong sau out like a block, this may be true. Our philosophy is different. Bong sau is like a bent spring. You don't throw out a bong sau defensively. You throw out a _strike_. If the striking arm meets stronger opposing force, it is bent like a spring, absorbing and deflecting. 

So, if your opponent forces your arm into bong with one hand, and grabs for your elbow with the other, he's taking the bait. That is what you want him to do ....chase your elbow and put his two hands on your one so you can hit him straight away with the other. 

Is it possible for the grappler to win? Sure. If he's better. Life's funny that way!


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## geezer (Oct 22, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> The other guy will tell you he won't be able to stop me.. he has tried many, many times..


Yes, and he's smaller, weaker, and apparently your student. And he's also doing exactly what you tell him to do - that is positioning himself exactly as you say. 

Isn't it funny how we can do such great demos on our students and friends. Have you noticed that they become _even more manageable_ after they get a little more training under their belt.

It's almost like we are training them to let us dominate them! Strange how that works.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 22, 2021)

geezer said:


> If you throw out your bong sau out like a block, this may be true. Our philosophy is different. Bong sau is like a bent spring. You don't throw out a bong sau defensively. You throw out a _strike_. If the striking arm meets stronger opposing force, it is bent like a spring, absorbing and deflecting.
> 
> So, if your opponent forces your arm into bong with one hand, and grabs for your elbow with the other, he's taking the bait. That is what you want him to do ....chase your elbow and put his two hands on your one so you can hit him straight away with the other.
> 
> Is it possible for the grappler to win? Sure. If he's better. Life's funny that way!


I do agree that everything can be a bait. In Chinese wrestling, it's very common that you expose your elbow joint to your opponent on purpose. When your opponent tries to reach to your elbow, you use arm guide to control his arm instead.

- I raise and expose my right elbow joint to you.
- Your left hand tries to reach to my right elbow.
- My right arm uses circular motion to control/guide your left elbow.

This is why the MA is just a big cheating game.


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## futsaowingchun (Oct 22, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's all 鏢指手, and pronounced "biu ji sao", and you don't need to capitalize it.
> 
> It predates Wing Chun by quite a long time, mostly southern Shaolin Crane technique, because of its Wu Xing element (muk, wood) and the squeezing involved.  That's why a demo showing just one 手 is half the picture, and that's being generous.
> 
> Do a demo with both hands, and have the other guy really resist you.  That would be interesting.


there is a difference one is defensive while the other one is a strike..


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 22, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> there is a difference one is defensive while the other one is a strike..



There are no differences in kung fu. 

Whenever did any crane, snake, or dragon worry about what was defensive or offensive?


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## futsaowingchun (Oct 22, 2021)

geezer said:


> Yes, and he's smaller, weaker, and apparently your student. And he's also doing exactly what you tell him to do - that is positioning himself exactly as you say.
> 
> Isn't it funny how we can do such great demos on our students and friends. Have you noticed that they become _even more manageable_ after they get a little more training under their belt.
> 
> It's almost like we are training them to let us dominate them! Strange how that works.


ive done this with other people ive only known for a few hour the results are the same ..


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 23, 2021)

Really good video from my friend on the topic, Bik Kiu bridge (crowding) and how it relates to bong sao.


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## geezer (Oct 24, 2021)

OK here's another one of these kind of demos -a better one IMO- by GM Keith Kernspecht of the EWTO. My si-dai in Texas trained personally with him for some time and thinks he's the greatest WT/WC/VT master in the world ...even better than our own sifu, Leung Ting.

Me? I'm not into hero worship. The guy is better than I'll ever be and obviously he knows how to use good structure to exploit weaknesses in his opponent's structure. Other than that ....I always find this demos fun ...but a little like a parlor trick.

FWIW, Kernspecht now in his late 70s was a power lifter in his youth and was very massive and strong until recent years.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 24, 2021)

geezer said:


> he knows how to use good structure to exploit weaknesses in his opponent's structure.


I like this guy in the video. He has We-De (martial moral). In Chinese wrestling, after you have thrown your opponent down 3 times, you let your opponent to throw you down once. This way your opponent's feeling will not be hurt. This guy in the video does know about that.

I also don't like the soft style sticky hand. When our arms are contacted, either you run me over, or I run you over. There should be nothing in between.

The way that I look at this is, the more that I "play" with my opponent's arms (such as the WC sticky hand, or the Taiji push hand), the less run down ability that I will develop.

I like the kind of training that the moment that I touch my arm on your arm, the moment that I try to run you down. It doesn't matter whether I succeed of fail. The training will enhance my successful rate.


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## geezer (Oct 24, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like this guy in the video. He has We-De (martial moral). In Chinese wrestling, after you have thrown your opponent down 3 times, you let your opponent to throw you down once. This way your opponent's feeling will not be hurt. This guy in the video does know about that.
> 
> I also don't like the soft style sticky hand. When our arms are contacted, either you run me over, or I run you over. There should be nothing in between.
> 
> ...


Good Comments. But you know, I mistakenly posted the video clip above on this thread. It was meant for the _other_ thread by _Futsao _titled:

Having Control of Your Body Using Relaxed and Loose Joints.​
It is a response to his video showing him unbalancing his student in a similar type of demo. So I'm going to re-post it over there. Please respond on that thread! Thanks.

BTW This is what happens when I try to post from my phone instead of my desktop. Sorry!


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## futsaowingchun (Oct 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> Yes, and he's smaller, weaker, and apparently your student. And he's also doing exactly what you tell him to do - that is positioning himself exactly as you say.
> 
> Isn't it funny how we can do such great demos on our students and friends. Have you noticed that they become _even more manageable_ after they get a little more training under their belt.
> 
> It's almost like we are training them to let us dominate them! Strange how that works.


does not matter the size,,ive done this with much bigger persons..people over 300lbs


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