# Butterfly Knives



## 47MartialMan (May 12, 2005)

What is your definition, opinion and/or commentary on Butterfly Knives?


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## shesulsa (May 12, 2005)

Flashy, fun, impractical.


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## Tgace (May 12, 2005)

Must be tiny to use with their little legs. Dont let one land on you with one...


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## shesulsa (May 12, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Must be tiny to use with their little legs. Dont let one land on you with one...


 hmmmmmmmm ....


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## 47MartialMan (May 12, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Flashy, fun, impractical.


That was cute and simple...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Do you know where they came from?

What is the name in relation to what is the item?

In other words, can you be more descriptive?


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## 47MartialMan (May 12, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Must be tiny to use with their little legs. Dont let one land on you with one...


OK, great and funny.....
Don't tell me they were catepillars with ore and morphed in to steel?

Any imput on what you view them as?


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## Tgace (May 12, 2005)

Catepillars from the wrong side of the tracks...dealing pollen to the little insect larve. Brrrrr!!!


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## Tgace (May 13, 2005)

Seriously though..theyre alright. Personally Id go with a good tactical folder. Fancy high dexterity opens are bad when the adrenaline gets flowing.


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## dubljay (May 13, 2005)

Moot point if you live in the wonderful state of California as they are illegal.

 Though my experience with butterfly knives lead me to beleive they are impractical (in more than one sense).  No doubt that with anything training can make someone proficient, things happen under the effects of adrinline.  

 Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 -Josh


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## Simon Curran (May 13, 2005)

It looks flashy when someone is doing the flick of the wrist open thingy, but at the end of the day, a knife is a knife: stick it in someone and they are in trouble.


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## shesulsa (May 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> That was cute and simple...


  Thanks.


			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Do you know where they came from?


 The Phillipines, I believe, and it is also knows as the balisong.


			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> What is the name in relation to what is the item?


 Your question is formed strangely - could you rephrase?


			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> In other words, can you be more descriptive?


 As to what, exactly?


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## shesulsa (May 13, 2005)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> ... <snip> ... a knife is a knife: stick it in someone and they are in trouble.


 I don't completely agree with that.  Tactical folders are superior, IMHO.  I'd hate to have to manipulate a balisong in CQC - unless I had nothing else.


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## Tgace (May 13, 2005)

And the handle lock comes loose and the grip gets funky....


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## shesulsa (May 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> And the handle lock comes loose and the grip gets funky....


 Precisely - even with a good tight grasp.  But I sure do LOVE playing with my balisong.  (ummm ... did that sound dirty?)


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## Simon Curran (May 13, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I don't completely agree with that. Tactical folders are superior, IMHO. I'd hate to have to manipulate a balisong in CQC - unless I had nothing else.


Whilst I understand what you are saying, any sharp implement is potentially deadly, one of my schoolmates was stabbed to death at age 14 with an electrician's screwdriver, so although a particular type of knife may be tactically superior, it is the intent of the person holding the weapon which makes it effective, not the weapon itself.:asian:


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## shesulsa (May 13, 2005)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> Whilst I understand what you are saying, any sharp implement is potentially deadly, one of my schoolmates was stabbed to death at age 14 with an electrician's screwdriver, so although a particular type of knife may be tactically superior, it is the intent of the person holding the weapon which makes it effective, not the weapon itself.:asian:


 While I agree that the technician's intent is part and parcel of the result, I think we must be careful to not ignore the importance of the weapon.  Any knife in a good grip, well applied can be deadly - at least debilitating.  But if your grip falters, the dead or debilitated could be you.  This is the risk, IMVVHO, of the balisong.  As Tom said, grip can get funky with a little work and (my addition) sweaty hands (adrenaline).

 Again, if I had a choice between no weapon and a butterfly knife, I'd pick the butterfly knife.  If I had a choice between a butterfly knife and a good folder, I'd most likely pick the folder. :asian:


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## KenpoTex (May 13, 2005)

I like Bali's.  Unfortunately they're illegal to carry in most places.  One of the things I like about them is that they make a mean pocket-stick/kubaton in the closed position.  Another is that when they are open, even when they loosen up (which happens to virtually all of them over time) they are still one of the stronger designs around when it comes to the integrity of the locking mechanism.

The need for practice is admittedly much greater with a bali than with a regular tactical folder.  OTOH, I submit that you're probably going to have problems with your spyderco or benchmade if you're trying to access or manipulate it in the middle of a fight.  While there are a lot of openings that are very flashy and difficult, there are a few (basic horizontal, latch-drop, etc.) that I feel I could pull off with just as much confidence as I would have using a tactical folder. 

No, if they were legal, I wouldn't shelf my spydies and CUDAs in favor of a bali, but I'd probably carry one in addition to the others.

For some cool techniques and general info. check out these sites:
http://www.balisonginfo.com/techniques.html

http://www.balisongxtreme.com/


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## Simon Curran (May 13, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Again, if I had a choice between no weapon and a butterfly knife, I'd pick the butterfly knife. If I had a choice between a butterfly knife and a good folder, I'd most likely pick the folder. :asian:


Agreed (although it is academic over here, since it is illegal to carry weapons)


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## Makalakumu (May 13, 2005)

My teacher teaches a balisong form.  I knowthe beginning, but did not learn the whole thing.  The opening moves of the form open the knife and close it with some pretty high dexterity moves.  I would say that this knife in particular and the forms that go along with it are designed for dueling.  The opening and closing moves show hand dexterity and footwork that would intimidate an opponent in a duel and probably wow onlookers.  I don't know much else about the balisong.  I don't practice it much because knife dueling just ain't my thang...


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## Gemini (May 13, 2005)

I think shesula's initial post summed it up pretty well. I have many knives, and of all of them, this would be my least desired in a time of need for all the reasons already mentioned. The fact that most of the others are legal and that one isn't plays a big part in that. It is fun though.


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## tshadowchaser (May 13, 2005)

I carried one for years as a utility tool when I worked on the ambulence. It cut seat belt. opened windows, and I could always open a can of soup when I was hungry. 2 weeks after stoping work on the ambulence I got stoped in a traffic stop and busted for carrying my knife. Luckily it was not a felony at that thime(ca. laws change to much).
I still carry one much of the time as a belt knife. 
I have one form that is made for the Bali but don't practice it that much because I don't want the younger students seeing it or me with the knife.
Practice is the only way to ever get realy good with the knife and to find out all that it can do.


> One of the things I like about them is that they make a mean pocket-stick/kubaton in the closed position


True and a often missed and forgotten way to use this knofe


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## Tgace (May 13, 2005)

Alway impressed me as a weapon that you use offensively. If you decide to use it, you can draw it in the right way (mine always got stuck in my pocket, was backwards when I pulled it out, had it open in my pocket and grabbed it by the blade, etc.) open it and use it. Rather than something I would want to employ defensively. And a thumb sweep open of a folder is much more gross motor skill than the simplest balisong open. The latch open has the possibility of just tossing the weapon under pressure. Did it a few times myself while practicing it at high speed. Not many other knives carry as high a risk of cutting yourself (wrong handle flip openings) as the balisong either.


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## 47MartialMan (May 13, 2005)

Ok, here is what I have come to known:

Using some of my older notes with these pics posted:

The true 'butterfly" knife, if one is to not use "generic slang" but correct reference is a Chinese butcher's cleaver. Later this was developed into:





However, they were more crude-looking back then and/or less fanciful.

The false, or "generic slang" one is actually called the balisong, claimed to be originated from Batangas, the Philippines islands.





However, the French seem to lay claim to it.The oldest "balisong" knife dated before the 1800's, is the "Piued-Du-Roi. It is in France, which can be seen in the Musée de la Coutellerie, in Thiers. According to reference, Lagiole, ("city of knives"). This oldest dated evidence seems to support that in a French book called book, "Le Peret", which was published in 1710. Showing a drawing of a balisong. 

In the mid 1800's, there were German manufactured ones that appear in Bontgon and Sabin's catalog. Which have actual documented patents in that era.

So if the the balisong is European design or origin. And Spain was a powerful, vast, and country of exploration. One can argue that a Spanish vessel may have taken one to the Philippines which in accordance to some history, was colonized by Spain.


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## psi_radar (May 13, 2005)

Reasons I carry my SOG folder a lot more often than my balisong:

It's faster to open.

It's legal. Interesting point here. An LEO here told me a butterfly knife can be legal, depending on how you open it. Using centrifugal (or centripetal, I always forget which is correct) force is ok.

It's less valuable. I've seen original Balisongs like mine go for astronomical prices, and I'd prefer not mucking it up doing chores. 

It holds an edge better.

A lot of great points already, both in its favor and against: The Balisong is a good kubotan, and fun to play with. The lock never seems to be the right direction when I pulled from a pocket. Though it's pretty easy to get good at a swift opening, errors still occur sometimes because there's still some complex and well-timed movements required. 

Cool concept, but other knives out there get the job done better, IMO.


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## psi_radar (May 13, 2005)

I hate two-part posts.


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## arnisandyz (May 13, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> The true 'butterfly" knife, if one is to not use "generic slang" but correct reference is a Chinese butcher's cleaver.





			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> I've always heard of the Chinese cleavers refered to as Butterfly Swords (not knives)
> 
> The false, or "generic slang" one is actually called the balisong, claimed to be originated from Batangas, the Philippines islands.
> 
> ...




We have discussed the history of the Balisong knife herehttp://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14746&highlight=balisong


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## shesulsa (May 13, 2005)

Thanks for that link, arnisandyz.


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## 47MartialMan (May 13, 2005)

Yes, thanks-I didnt know it was discussed before.


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