# Going to organize Bear hunt using tradittional Japanese Archery Equipment



## Master Dan (May 11, 2012)

Several of us have past and current archery experience and it has long been my desire to organize a bear hunt here using traditional Japanese long Bow. We have a very large agressive Brown Bear Grizzly Bear population. People pay over $10,000 each to come here to hunt we can do it for free. I have friends here that have on a regular basis used compound bows but no one has used a traditional long bow. Any thoughts? I found a really great site for equipment not sure on hunting arrows yet? 4-5 of us are really jazzed about doing it. 

I have been told difference betweein high powered gun in wounding a bear they just keep comming and I can name alot of people mauled baddly or killed but in the case of an arrow I am told they stop and swat at the arrow I just want to make sure its not to pick his teeth with after he eats me? 

Suggestions of several large guns behind but that would take away from the life and death struggle of it all? Oh Bear spray? thats just seasoning here!


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## Tez3 (May 11, 2012)

or perhaps just live and let live? The bears are aggressive? funnily enough I believe home invasions are illegal in the USA so I'd say the bears were right to be aggressive when having their homes invaded. Hunting for food is one thing, hunting and killing just because you can is just pointless. 

yeah yeah I miss the point, the glory, the thrill of the chase, man's destiny and all that stuff. :disgust:


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## Steve (May 11, 2012)

Are you an experienced hunter?  What about an experienced bow hunter?  I presume so, but I'm just asking.  Because if you're not an experienced bow hunter, why would you even consider hunting an Alaskan brown or grizzly bear with a long bow?  It sounds like the height of stupidity to me.


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## Master Dan (May 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> or perhaps just live and let live? The bears are aggressive? funnily enough I believe home invasions are illegal in the USA so I'd say the bears were right to be aggressive when having their homes invaded. Hunting for food is one thing, hunting and killing just because you can is just pointless.
> 
> yeah yeah I miss the point, the glory, the thrill of the chase, man's destiny and all that stuff. :disgust:



We eat what we kill here bear is good and we use all the parts not to mention other parts I will not go  into and on the other side Moose which is very important to the food chain here are desimated by the early kills when calving so I suggest you understand about life here first the lower 48 think we ar thier private park try living and surviviing here first


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## Master Dan (May 11, 2012)

Steve said:


> Are you an experienced hunter?  What about an experienced bow hunter?  I presume so, but I'm just asking.  Because if you're not an experienced bow hunter, why would you even consider hunting an Alaskan brown or grizzly bear with a long bow?  It sounds like the height of stupidity to me.


Yes with other bow and other large animals but a charging bull moose can be extremly dangerous you get a preference in tag and season to use a bow. But your right on the one point


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## Tez3 (May 11, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> We eat what we kill here bear is good and we use all the parts not to mention other parts I will not go into and on the other side Moose which is very important to the food chain here are desimated by the early kills when calving so I suggest you understand about life here first the lower 48 think we ar thier private park try living and surviviing here first




You may use all the parts of the animal but the hunters that come and shoot bears just because they can? If you kill only for the meat etc why the macho stuff at the end of your post? 'the life and death struggle' that doesn't sound like substinance hunting to me.

Yes I can hunt, for food not for the 'life and death' struggle, to make myself feel good. it's a practical activity done with practical tools not tools using hunting to go on an ego trip.


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## Blindside (May 11, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> Several of us have past and current archery experience and it has long been my desire to organize a bear hunt here using traditional Japanese long Bow. We have a very large agressive Brown Bear Grizzly Bear population. People pay over $10,000 each to come here to hunt we can do it for free. I have friends here that have on a regular basis used compound bows but no one has used a traditional long bow. Any thoughts? I found a really great site for equipment not sure on hunting arrows yet? 4-5 of us are really jazzed about doing it.




I guess the first question is; are you well versed in the use of the yumi?  And aren't hunting arrows going to be tough to come by?  The Japanese arrows are pretty long compared to recurve or compound bows.


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## jks9199 (May 11, 2012)

I may be wrong -- but I don't believe that "traditional Japanese bows" were meant for hunting.  I don't think I'd want to deal with a wounded Grizzly or even brown bear...

There are probably better ideas around...


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## Master Dan (May 11, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> You may use all the parts of the animal but the hunters that come and shoot bears just because they can? If you kill only for the meat etc why the macho stuff at the end of your post? 'the life and death struggle' that doesn't sound like substinance hunting to me.
> 
> Yes I can hunt, for food not for the 'life and death' struggle, to make myself feel good. it's a practical activity done with practical tools not tools using hunting to go on an ego trip.




And please tell me what you know about subsistance hunting what native peoples have you lived with hunted with eaten with still killing and hunting similar to 10,000 years ago? true subsistance was and is at some time dangerous and life ending here every year monthly weekly what ever even dying to collect eggs. You cannot speak to it from your vantage. Alot of warrior spirit is talked about on the forums here but here it is every day part of life and it is special experience to be taught by the elders and become part of the hunt yes your right about people who pay to just come in and kill however that does serve a purpose in bringing income to low income poverty level natives here and supports increase in moose population. I may have jumped in a little and only focused on the hunt in fact the target practice use and spirit of the formal use of the bow will be 99% of what we do but we kill and eat whales we kill and eat seals infact there is not a single animal we do not kill and eat even at times close to Russia on the Island in fog hold up a net just out your door and eat what ever comes in. These are the last of American natives that still hunt and kill traditional food almost same as 10,000 years ago and any martial artist who has ever visited me has been truly blessed for it to experience these people and culture. I have been with many Koreans who expressed the need to drink the blood soon after a kill that is warrior nature at its base.


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## Master Dan (May 11, 2012)

Blindside said:


> I guess the first question is; are you well versed in the use of the yumi?  And aren't hunting arrows going to be tough to come by?  The Japanese arrows are pretty long compared to recurve or compound bows.


Yes you are correct and we may well use different materials but in the thread at least we are getting to know different people and points of view. Its likely we will be using two types of bows and the majority of the summer activity will be target shooting but Moose Muskox and bear will still be a goal this year.


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## Makalakumu (May 12, 2012)

Maybe try and hunt some smaller animals first. Work up to deer and see how the bow drives the arrow home. Once you get a feel for it and you think it might be up to the task, then take the risk. BTW bear steaks are yummy...but not worth getting killed over.


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## Chris Parker (May 12, 2012)

Don't try. A Japanese bow is constructed differently, drawn differently, aimed differently, sized differently, released differently, they're gripped differently, the arrows are sized differently, and more. With no experience with a Japanese bow, you're just setting yourself up for failure if a Japanese archery experience is what you're aiming for.

If you're not experienced with it, don't pick it up.

EDIT: And honestly, the idea of hunting a grizzly bear just so you can try out a new toy you have no understanding of I find rather unsettling, honestly.


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## ETinCYQX (May 12, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Don't try. A Japanese bow is constructed differently, drawn differently, aimed differently, sized differently, released differently, they're gripped differently, the arrows are sized differently, and more. With no experience with a Japanese bow, you're just setting yourself up for failure if a Japanese archery experience is what you're aiming for.
> 
> If you're not experienced with it, don't pick it up.
> 
> EDIT: And honestly, the idea of hunting a grizzly bear just so you can try out a new toy you have no understanding of I find rather unsettling, honestly.



I don't find it unsettling as much as intensely dumb. 

You're going to be eaten by a grizzly bear if you try that. Bears are dangerous.


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## WC_lun (May 12, 2012)

Well the bear has a better chance against someone with a Yumi.  I have to say my money is on the bear if within 70 yards.


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## Gnarlie (May 12, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> I don't find it unsettling as much as intensely dumb.
> 
> You're going to be eaten by a grizzly bear if you try that. Bears are dangerous.



Natural selection at work. Somewhere, Charles Darwin is smirking to himself. 

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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## Master Dan (May 12, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> Well the bear has a better chance against someone with a Yumi.  I have to say my money is on the bear if within 70 yards.



Your right and even with a gun here if they charge from the Willows lets say 50 to 100 feet the bear can do some real damage before it dies even with a fatal wound. Thats why I like the S&W 500 with 500 grain loads the only pistol to penetrate an Elephants skull 28 inches. its also why I don't camp in a tent here. my farthest North Dojang 700 miles from the North Pole had 250 Polar Bears stranded one summer in town due to ice going out to far. It was stressfull for everyone including my student to walk anywhere. We had to kill one in front of our DoJang they used flash bank load to scare they even tried to push it with a loader it jumped in the bucket no choice. That mad me sad they are beautiful to watch and endangered the brown bears are not. I truly do hate people killing just for the sake of killing. We have beautiful red fox at times in the winter we feed and some people freak out and want to kill them our DoJang had a 42 foot fishing trawler for the students to fish and feed the elders and we had wild Mink comming on the boat to eat bait and people would say hey kill them its a Mink yeh two of them not enough for a glove? that pisses me off. Beautifil clothes made from Muskrats but they eat them too. not bad tastes like chicken actually similar to squiral tatsty.


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## Flying Crane (May 12, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> Thats why I like the S&W 500 with 500 grain loads the only pistol to penetrate an Elephants skull 28 inches.



The fact that people even know this is something that I find disturbing.  who the hell is hunting elephants???


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## Makalakumu (May 12, 2012)

What is the draw for a Japanese bow? How does it compare to other bows that people use for bear? I've bow hunted black bear in MN and we were pulling 80 lbs. What kind of arrows are you going to use? What kind of heads? The stuff that sportsmen use to kill bear might not transfer to a Japanese bow system.


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## Chris Parker (May 13, 2012)

That's the thing... with the design of a Japanese bow (with two-thirds above your hand, and one third underneath, as well as the construction materials and so on) mean that comparisons with Western bows draw-strength doesn't actually mean much. The Japanese bow is designed to generate greater power with lower actual draw-power required. As far as arrows, due to the different drawing method, the arrows are personalised, rather than standardised... and good luck finding hunting heads for them. 

Almost nothing from Western archery for hunting transfers that well to Japanese archery until sufficient skill and experience with Japanese archery is attained.


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## elder999 (May 13, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> The fact that people even know this is something that I find disturbing. who the hell is hunting elephants???




It's legal (and expensive) to hunt elephants in South Africa, Tanzania and Kenya. Lots of people. Those Trump boys made quite a stir with it just a few weeks ago......


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## Haakon (May 13, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> The fact that people even know this is something that I find disturbing.  who the hell is hunting elephants???



Many people pay big money to hunt elephants in Africa every year. They're one of the so called "big five" game animals (lion, leopard, rhino, elephant and cape buffalo) that trophy hunters brag about.


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## Makalakumu (May 13, 2012)

As long as you do so legally, there's nothing wrong with hunting, IMO.  That's a separate issue.  

Can you hunt bear with a Japanese bow?  Maybe.  I think what *Chris Parker* pointed out in his last post underlines the difficulties of it.  It sounds like you'd have to adapt the equipment for the task and for that, you'd have to know how to make the equipment and shoot well with it.  Then, you'd have to learn how to hunt with it.  It's worth experimenting with...but do so on small game until you really figure out how to use this thing.  Also, learn as much about the equipment that people currently use to take bears.  Maybe actually take a bear with the equipment that people normally use.  I imagine the quickest route from A to B is to adapt the traditional equipment to the Japanese archery system.  That will take a lot of learning.  You're putting your life on the line with this hunt.  Be prepared.


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## Tez3 (May 13, 2012)

'Hunting' driven game just so you can claim bragging rights to having shot an animal is just pathetic, only someone lacking in the touser department 'hunts' that way. There's no reason for rich white men to go around killing elephants, etc these days, As is glorying killing as being something a 'warrior' does, drinking blood... what a load of bollocks tbh. Hunters hunt for substistance, they don't go round shouting 'woo, look at me' I shot a beastie', they get on and butcher the meat, salvaging everything else they need, if lifes hard you don't make go round playing with toy s like a 'new' bow just so you can see if you can kill a bear with it so all this noble warrior stuff is pants.


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## Makalakumu (May 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> 'Hunting' driven game just so you can claim bragging rights to having shot an animal is just pathetic, only someone lacking in the touser department 'hunts' that way. There's no reason for rich white men to go around killing elephants, etc these days, As is glorying killing as being something a 'warrior' does, drinking blood... what a load of bollocks tbh. Hunters hunt for substistance, they don't go round shouting 'woo, look at me' I shot a beastie', they get on and butcher the meat, salvaging everything else they need, if lifes hard you don't make go round playing with toy s like a 'new' bow just so you can see if you can kill a bear with it so all this noble warrior stuff is pants.



Honestly, this is a difference in culture. To someone who was born and raised in Alaska, there is nothing wrong with hunting bears. I've had the pleasure of spending a significant amount of time in Alaska. I carried a gun everywhere because there are a lot of bears.


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## WC_lun (May 13, 2012)

Something I've noticed from my own relatives living on the rez in Oklahoma that hunt for sustinance, they seem to be a lot more cognizent of the life the animal lost in order to feed thier family.  The act of killing itself is not celebrated as much.  This doesn't mean they aren't happy when they make a kill or appreciative when the animal is a rarer speciman, but the killing isn't so much the focus.  Food for thought.


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## Makalakumu (May 13, 2012)

Let's not assume this hypothetical hunt is purely for sport. Plenty of people hunt because it's fun and because it puts good meat in your freezer. The bottom line is that whether or not you hunt for fun or food, it's thrilling to bag the animal. That feeling is part of being human.


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## Tez3 (May 13, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Honestly, this is a difference in culture. To someone who was born and raised in Alaska, there is nothing wrong with hunting bears. I've had the pleasure of spending a significant amount of time in Alaska. I carried a gun everywhere because there are a lot of bears.



Nothing wrong with hunting bears? Just so you can say you killed an animal? You don't go out and shoot a bear because you are in need of food, clothing, etc etc? You just shoot a bear because you can? did you ever think that there's a corollary between those who think it's fine to just kill animals thereby destroying life and those who kill humans because they can, either all life is sacred or none is. As WC_lun has pointed out those who kill for subsistance, appreciate the life of the animal and know what it means to kill it. Going out shooting animals just to end their lives so you can have a trophy is definitatly an activity of those who really don't appreciate life as they should.


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## rframe (May 13, 2012)

It's always entertaining to listen to the moral judgments of people who have no clue what they are talking about.  The hunters I know spend almost all of their free time enjoying nature, a great deal of money and effort working on environmental preservation and restoration, and have a deep appreciation for life.  They are active participants in nature and the cyclic nature of predator and prey.  To paint them as knuckle dragging rednecks who just want to stick another head on a wall is incredibly ignorant and disrespectful.


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## Makalakumu (May 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Nothing wrong with hunting bears? Just so you can say you killed an animal? You don't go out and shoot a bear because you are in need of food, clothing, etc etc? You just shoot a bear because you can? did you ever think that there's a corollary between those who think it's fine to just kill animals thereby destroying life and those who kill humans because they can, either all life is sacred or none is. As WC_lun has pointed out those who kill for subsistance, appreciate the life of the animal and know what it means to kill it. Going out shooting animals just to end their lives so you can have a trophy is definitatly an activity of those who really don't appreciate life as they should.



I lived with subsistence hunters in Canada. They use every bit of the animal and hunting is just as thrilling. The whole Avatar meme in regards to taking an animal isn't really accurate. Taking an animal is fun, practical, and fulfilling in ways that many activities aren't. 

As far as moralizing goes, I grew up hunting and fishing and I would say I have a realistic view of suffering and death. I'm not kicking puppies or pulling the wings off of flies in my basement, nor am I bending my will to the state religion to kill a bunch of people who never did a thing to me. None of that is practical or fulfilling. From my perspective, as someone who has taken life in nature, most of the suffering and death that humans cause each other is the ultimate waste. 

At least the Maori ate their war dead...

Anyway, this is a huge thread hijack.  We should split this conversation off into a new thread...


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## elder999 (May 13, 2012)

It's not for me, but I can understand the point of view of those who "trophy and sport" hunt.

It's totally unecessary for me to hunt for meat-I do it for pleasure and health reasons: elk and venison are just soooo much better than most store bought meat-it's the same reason I raise chickens and rabbits, really. 

That, and it's a truly wonderful activity on a bunch of levels that I'm not going to detail here, just say that it's spiritually fulfilling, and part of my personal warrior ethos.

On the other hand, I'd never hunt a bear unless I were starving-again, for a variety of reasons that are my own. I don't begrudge anyone the pleasure of a bear hunt, or eating bear meat, and I'd eat it if it were served to me, but I hope to never have to harvest any myself-or to kill a bear under any circumstances.

Worked with a guy who went on safari in Africa every couple of years-he and his wife had taken kudu, Cape buffalo, leopard(?) and elephant. Don't care much for guided hunts, but I had to respect going into the field after an animal that could as easily kill you, and maybe wanted to. Not for me, but it was his money.

As for hunting a brown bear in Alaska with a yumi-, as someone who has done a great deal of hunting with a bow, and actually has some experience wqith jyudo, I can say this: there used to be (still are?) bears in Japan, and this was the bow they were hunted with-if you're familiar with the weapon, and can fashion appropriate arrows yourself (the draw length is longer because the Japanese draw pulls back beyond the ear, so the arrows are much longer as well) you can even use modern broadheads-at least, I don't see any reason why you couldn't. It really doesn't take much more than 35# draw weight to kill a smaller bear, so it's feasible...........I'd just have to ask, *why*? A modern compound bow, recurve or longbow is challenge enough with any animal, let alone one that might kill you, why add another level of complication?>


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## Tez3 (May 13, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> I lived with subsistence hunters in Canada. They use every bit of the animal and hunting is just as thrilling. The whole Avatar meme in regards to taking an animal isn't really accurate. Taking an animal is fun, practical, and fulfilling in ways that many activities aren't.
> 
> As far as moralizing goes, I grew up hunting and fishing and I would say I have a realistic view of suffering and death. I'm not kicking puppies or pulling the wings off of flies in my basement, nor am I bending my will to the state religion to kill a bunch of people who never did a thing to me. None of that is practical or fulfilling. From my perspective, as someone who has taken life in nature, most of the suffering and death that humans cause each other is the ultimate waste.
> 
> ...



It's not, the OP said he wanted to shoot a bear with a Japanese bow, he siad there was the whole 'life and death' experience about it, presumably why he didn't shoot them with the usual weapons, he wants to make it an 'experience' so it's about more than just using a bow and arrow. So there is no thread drift.
Avatar meme? I haven't seen Avatar and don't get get sentimental about killing animals for food, I just find it pointless and wasteful when people who are on an ego trip kill animals for no other reason than to make the shooter feel like a bigger person and stick a stuffed head on their walls. if you want to kill bears for food, go ahead but don't turn it into a freak show for the ego by using a Japanese bow for 'amusement' and glory, that's just a load of bear dung.


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## Makalakumu (May 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> It's not, the OP said he wanted to shoot a bear with a Japanese bow, he siad there was the whole 'life and death' experience about it, presumably why he didn't shoot them with the usual weapons, he wants to make it an 'experience' so it's about more than just using a bow and arrow. So there is no thread drift.
> Avatar meme? I haven't seen Avatar and don't get get sentimental about killing animals for food, I just find it pointless and wasteful when people who are on an ego trip kill animals for no other reason than to make the shooter feel like a bigger person and stick a stuffed head on their walls. if you want to kill bears for food, go ahead but don't turn it into a freak show for the ego by using a Japanese bow for 'amusement' and glory, that's just a load of bear dung.



It could also be viewed as a legitimate challenge for a hunter.

Humans used to take bears with atl atls and spears. That would take a lot of courage! I practice with a spear thrower periodically and the thought of getting close enough to kill a bear with a hard thrown spear is terrifying. 

A man who could do that would earn huge bragging rights, IMO.


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## elder999 (May 13, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> It could also be viewed as a legitimate challenge for a hunter.
> 
> Humans used to take bears with atl atls and spears. That would take a lot of courage! I practice with a spear thrower periodically and the thought of getting close enough to kill a bear with a hard thrown spear is terrifying.
> 
> A man who could do that would earn huge bragging rights, IMO.



Had to petition the state to let me use an atlatl to take an elk-had to demonstrate that it was as accurate and effective as a bow and arrow.

It was really hard, and really worth it! 

Could do it with a bear, but don't hunt bears.........


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2012)

And the point of proving you can kill an animal is? Unless you are eating it and using all the parts of it why kill something?


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## elder999 (May 14, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> And the point of proving you can kill an animal is? Unless you are eating it and using all the parts of it why kill something?



There are lots of other motivations for hunting besides simply providing what can be harvested from the animal. I use my turkey hunts to scout for my elk hunts-I also use a bow for turkey hunts because it's more challenging. Likewise, while I'll occasionally take a turkey because I can use the meat and provide feathers for people who have a use for them, I really prefer domestic turkey to wild turkey, so I raise a couple every year. On the other hand, turkeys are pretty wily, so most years I get humbled-outsmarted by something with a brain a little bit smaller than the tip of my pinkie.....:lfao:

I fashioned an atlatl long ago, and darts made of stainless steel tubing. I was younger, faster and had a little more -stamina, and wanted to try it out on elk-it required the use of altogether different skill sets from a bow or muzzleloader for a successful hunt, and presented different challenges.

I can see that if Dan's going to hunt bear, he's looking to make it more challenging-I get that-it's one of the reasons why I'll bowhunt or use a muzzleloader (though I prefer the muzzleloader for elk because of the heavy .50 caliber ball)-I don't see that a Japanese bow is any more challenging than a western recurve or longbow, except in the unfamiliarity of the weapon, which is pretty foolish with an animal like a brown bear.



Chris Parker said:


> That's the thing... with the design of a Japanese bow (with two-thirds above your hand, and one third underneath, as well as the construction materials and so on) mean that comparisons with Western bows draw-strength doesn't actually mean much. The Japanese bow is designed to generate greater power with lower actual draw-power required.



Physics wise, this isn't true, and archery-Japanese or western-comes down to physics. Yumi-the modern versions of the "classical Japanese bow," anyway-come in a variety of draw weights, starting at about 30 lbs. It's because of the Japanese draw that arrows are personalized-the draw actually ends behind the ear, and arrows have to be quite long for some people0it's for this reason that "draw weight" is a little more flexible for yumi-the draw is typically quantified as "between _x and y lbs. at z inches._. In any case, higher draw weight means greater exit velocity, and kinetic energy, and this is what ultimately equates with "power," nothing more-you can't "generate greater power with lower actual draw power required"-that's physically impossible. This is, of course, all affected by draw length-the longer Japanese bow, and longer arrow and draw, means that there is a bigger drop off in velocity at higher draw weights-they're actually less efficient in generating speed and power than a recurve, but, because of all those things-the shape, length and draw length, they are actually conducive to more efficiency in releasing the arrow and hitting the target.

In kyudo,though, there are a variety of draw weights used, and the heavier draw weights launch the arrows faster, it's as simple as that.

In any case, the lightest of Japanese bows has around a 22-25 lbs. draw weight, which might not be legal for bear hunting-I think Alaska requires a peak draw weight of 50lbs. for brown bear, and, while I think it would actually be easier to draw a yumi with such a draw weight than a standard western recurve or longbow, it wouldn't be a simple matter-nor, I might add, would traipsing around in the field with a bow seven feet long and arrows that would be  a little over three feet long -if you're anywhere near my size.....


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2012)

Why does hunting have to be more 'challenging'? I'm sure the hunters thousands of years ago weren't looking to hunt for a challenge! I imagine that if there was an easy way they took it.


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## Chris Parker (May 14, 2012)

Hmm, honestly Tez, I'm not a fan of hunting myself either, but some people are. That's their thing, really. You might as well be asking why would anyone want to put themselves in a cage where there's another person trying to hit them in the head as hard as they can. In this instance, it's probably best to just accept that some people like hunting, and prefer to make it a form of personal challenge, or sport. You don't have to like it, but you also don't have the authority to sit in judgement over it, especially when it's a legal aspect of life in some parts of the world. This is why I haven't spoken against the idea of hunting itself, just the very bad idea of using a yumi with no understanding or experience in it, or any real comprehension of the differences to Western bows.


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## elder999 (May 14, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Why does hunting have to be more 'challenging'? I'm sure the hunters thousands of years ago weren't looking to hunt for a challenge! I imagine that if there was an easy way they took it.



And if I were simply looking to "harvest" an animal, that's what I'd do, regardless of season or tool. It's open season on feral hogs in this part of the world, and I simply went out and shot one, and could do so as much as I like, really. Taking an elk or deer is at best a once a year event, though, and such hunts are typically regulated and portioned out by the state, unless one is hunting on tribal lands. 

There really isn't a lot to going out with a high powered rifle and just shooting an animal, though, once one has some practice at it. You have to get closer with a bow, and that's a challenge-in addition to the already present challenges of knowing what the animals habits are, reading sign, and not giving one's own presence away-it adds another level of skill development.

Why not have it be more challenging? Would you prefer that I just stop on the side of the road in my truck, shoot the animal and be home in time for dinner? :lol:


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## elder999 (May 14, 2012)

Oh, and here ya go, from the gear guidleines of an Alaskan outfitter:



> [h=3]Archery[/h]Alaska state law requires that all bow hunters use a bow with a peak draw weight of at least 40 lbs. for deer, wolf, wolverine, Dall sheep, caribou, and black bear. *The law requires a peak draw weight of at least 50 lbs. for mountain goat, moose, elk, musk ox, bison, and brown bear; all of these latter species require a fixed or replaceable blade type broadhead (not retractable), with a 20" arrow, weighing at least 300 grains total. We prefer our brown bear hunters be proficient with a bow of 75 to 90 lb. draw weight.* Bowhunters for brown bear should be aware of the significantly increased danger with this choice of weapon in comparison to a rifle, and they should be aware if trophy fees are part of a hunt contract, a wounded bear is as good as a dead bear. Individuals that choose to pursue brown bear with a bow should have a substantial number of bow kills under their belt. I personally have taken one whitetail deer with a bow, and I do not consider myself qualified to ethically pursue brown bear with archery equipment. We offer archery hunters the opportunity to pursue everything that the rifle hunter can pursue.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, honestly Tez, I'm not a fan of hunting myself either, but some people are. That's their thing, really. You might as well be asking why would anyone want to put themselves in a cage where there's another person trying to hit them in the head as hard as they can. In this instance, it's probably best to just accept that some people like hunting, and prefer to make it a form of personal challenge, or sport. You don't have to like it, but you also don't have the authority to sit in judgement over it, especially when it's a legal aspect of life in some parts of the world. This is why I haven't spoken against the idea of hunting itself, just the very bad idea of using a yumi with no understanding or experience in it, or any real comprehension of the differences to Western bows.




I'm not against hunting, what I find objectionable is the shooting of animals and leaving them lying around to rot. Hunt and eat by all means but who can honestly say shooting a flock of pigeons and leaving them to rot is a 'challenge? Where the' sport in shooting thousands of birds you can never eat and nor does anyone else? where the sport in shooting an elephant when it is driven towards you and there's professional hunters waiting to shoot it when you miss just so you can go back to your country and say you shot an elephant? that's a challenge? Are people willing to say hunting squirrels is sport or a challenge?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/15/spain-king-juan-carlos-hunting


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## Chris Parker (May 14, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Physics wise, this isn't true, and archery-Japanese or western-comes down to physics. Yumi-the modern versions of the "classical Japanese bow," anyway-come in a variety of draw weights, starting at about 30 lbs. It's because of the Japanese draw that arrows are personalized-the draw actually ends behind the ear, and arrows have to be quite long for some people0it's for this reason that "draw weight" is a little more flexible for yumi-the draw is typically quantified as "between _x and y lbs. at z inches._. In any case, higher draw weight means greater exit velocity, and kinetic energy, and this is what ultimately equates with "power," nothing more-you can't "generate greater power with lower actual draw power required"-that's physically impossible. This is, of course, all affected by draw length-the longer Japanese bow, and longer arrow and draw, means that there is a bigger drop off in velocity at higher draw weights-they're actually less efficient in generating speed and power than a recurve, but, because of all those things-the shape, length and draw length, they are actually conducive to more efficiency in releasing the arrow and hitting the target.
> 
> In kyudo,though, there are a variety of draw weights used, and the heavier draw weights launch the arrows faster, it's as simple as that.
> 
> In any case, the lightest of Japanese bows has around a 22-25 lbs. draw weight, which might not be legal for bear hunting-I think Alaska requires a peak draw weight of 50lbs. for brown bear, and, while I think it would actually be easier to draw a yumi with such a draw weight than a standard western recurve or longbow, it wouldn't be a simple matter-nor, I might add, would traipsing around in the field with a bow seven feet long and arrows that would be  a little over three feet long -if you're anywhere near my size.....



Oh, I wasn't arguing against the basic physics there, just that the same draw weight for a Japanese bow and a compound bow (or even an old English longbow) don't really equal the same thing, due to the uneven dispersement of the draw. And as the rulings are geared around modern (Western) bows, taking them and transplanting them to Japanese bows doesn't really work in many cases.


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## elder999 (May 14, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not against hunting, what I find objectionable is the shooting of animals and leaving them lying around to rot. Hunt and eat by all means but who can honestly say shooting a flock of pigeons and leaving them to rot is a 'challenge? Where the' sport in shooting thousands of birds you can never eat and nor does anyone else?



DOn't know anyone that does that-a lot of people do hunt dove and pigeon here, and eat them-I don't care for it, but quite a few people look at dove hunting as great sport.



Tez3 said:


> where the sport in shooting an elephant when it is driven towards you and there's professional hunters waiting to shoot it when you miss just so you can go back to your country and say you shot an elephant? that's a challenge?



In agreement there, but that's not what we're talking about. Not even sure I'd call it "hunting."




Tez3 said:


> Are people willing to say hunting squirrels is sport or a challenge?



As a kid in New York, there was a great deal of sport and challenge to hunting squirrels-they were also quite tasty. :lol:

Out here, they don't get that big, so I haven't hunted squirrels in years. I've shot a few that were being a nuisance, though, and fed them to the dogs.....


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2012)

elder999 said:


> DOn't know anyone that does that-a lot of people do hunt dove and pigeon here, and eat them-I don't care for it, but quite a few people look at dove hunting as great sport.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Are your squirrels small fluffy things? Ours are, no meat on them at all. 

What we have here is very rich people standing with their shotguns up on the moors having pheasants ( no, not peasants, that was made illegal in the 19th century, it was done believe me) driven towards them by beaters, so they can shoot the poor birds who aren't very bright. The shooters don't even have to reload their shotguns, it's done for them, the dogs fetch the dead birds back. Then they have lunch afterwards that they shoot more birds which are in their hundreds, a couple may be kept for the table the rest dumped. The birds are specially reared, often hawks and other raptors are killed because the gamekeepers claim they destroy the chicks. This is hunting?


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## Carol (May 14, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not against hunting, what I find objectionable is the shooting of animals and leaving them lying around to rot. Hunt and eat by all means but who can honestly say shooting a flock of pigeons and leaving them to rot is a 'challenge? Where the' sport in shooting thousands of birds you can never eat and nor does anyone else? where the sport in shooting an elephant when it is driven towards you and there's professional hunters waiting to shoot it when you miss just so you can go back to your country and say you shot an elephant? that's a challenge? Are people willing to say hunting squirrels is sport or a challenge?
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/15/spain-king-juan-carlos-hunting




I don't know about other states, but here a hunting license/permit also comes with the agreement that one cannot leave an animal around to rot.  The law doesn't say what you must do with the animal, but you must take it out of habitat.


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## harlan (May 14, 2012)

To add to Carol's comment re: bear hunting in Massachusetts, it is required to check the bear in...and it had better not be missing any parts. Western MA has seen an increase in bear hunting, legal and illegal, due to fractured habitat ( = decreased 'carrying capacity'/tolerance for bears), aggregious state mismanagement of hunting/our natural resources and a demand for gall bladders.

http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/wildlife/facts/mammals/bear/black_bear_biology_faq.htm#biofaq30


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2012)

harlan said:


> To add to Carol's comment re: bear hunting in Massachusetts, it is required to check the bear in...and it had better not be missing any parts. Western MA has seen an increase in bear hunting, legal and illegal, due to fractured habitat ( = decreased 'carrying capacity'/tolerance for bears), aggregious state mismanagement of hunting/our natural resources and a demand for gall bladders.
> 
> http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/wildlife/facts/mammals/bear/black_bear_biology_faq.htm#biofaq30




A lot of European bears are being poached for the gall bladders. Bears in Eastern Europe and Asia are also used for 'circus' acts and bear baiting.

Hunting bears in the US as seen by a British journalist.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...led-hunters-young-13-just-miles-New-York.html


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## Makalakumu (May 14, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> And the point of proving you can kill an animal is? Unless you are eating it and using all the parts of it why kill something?



When you go and buy a steak at a grocery store, did you buy the rest of the cow?  Do you know how much of the animal gets wasted?


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## Makalakumu (May 14, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Why does hunting have to be more 'challenging'? I'm sure the hunters thousands of years ago weren't looking to hunt for a challenge! I imagine that if there was an easy way they took it.



Well, taking a bear trophy might be a good way to impress the ladies!  Imagine some testosterone soaked guy putting a bear claw necklace around his neck and then retelling the story of his own bravery again and again.  Humans...oi!


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## Makalakumu (May 14, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> A lot of European bears are being poached for the gall bladders. Bears in Eastern Europe and Asia are also used for 'circus' acts and bear baiting.
> 
> Hunting bears in the US as seen by a British journalist.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...led-hunters-young-13-just-miles-New-York.html



Just as an aside, I had a good friend in college that was killed by a bear in Romania.  She was hiking and the bear attacked her group.  That was a shock when I discovered that because I didn't know that any dangerous animals lived in Europe...other than humans.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Just as an aside, I had a good friend in college that was killed by a bear in Romania. She was hiking and the bear attacked her group. That was a shock when I discovered that because I didn't know that any dangerous animals lived in Europe...other than humans.



We have wolves, bison, bears, wild boar and lynx in Europe.


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## ballen0351 (May 14, 2012)

They actually pay people around here to kill pigeons because they poop on stuff.  They use high powered pellet guns at night and shoot them.  I never knew it until a few years ago i almost shot a guy he was in an alley with what i thought was a rifle.




Tez3 said:


> I'm not against hunting, what I find objectionable is the shooting of animals and leaving them lying around to rot. Hunt and eat by all means but who can honestly say shooting a flock of pigeons and leaving them to rot is a 'challenge? Where the' sport in shooting thousands of birds you can never eat and nor does anyone else? where the sport in shooting an elephant when it is driven towards you and there's professional hunters waiting to shoot it when you miss just so you can go back to your country and say you shot an elephant? that's a challenge? Are people willing to say hunting squirrels is sport or a challenge?
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/15/spain-king-juan-carlos-hunting


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> They actually pay people around here to kill pigeons because they poop on stuff. They use high powered pellet guns at night and shoot them. I never knew it until a few years ago i almost shot a guy he was in an alley with what i thought was a rifle.



Different sort of pigeon (rock doves) to that shot here, it's wood pigeons that are eaten in Europe.
http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/w/woodpigeon/index.aspx


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## Master Dan (May 14, 2012)

Well I started this thread to find input mainly from the Japanes Archery section however it has been interesting that we have slid into the age old battle of humans over animals. I can say that I have never enjoyed killing for just killing's sake and as I think of the bear situation here going out to kill with a gun has not been an enticing one I would prefer to watch and take pictures unless in self defense its needed. However entertaining another Grand Master that chooses to have me assist in a hunt is. The issue of the bow hunt is more related to the feeling of experiencing more traditional subsistance and the warrior nature of this region which I have been part of for 17 years and you cannot judge that from your arm chair in civilization. Many of us in this region have taken offense from people who niether understand nor have any investment in life here taking positions even to the point that humans should die and the animals take back the land. There are many varied colorful rebutal comments from our group and people of this region related to those people that out of frustration make us feel better just to say them. For example in our restruant Fat Freddys for decades had Spotted Owl burgers on the menue. So I imagine it is the same for those that would call a person stupid or an idiot for hunting the bear with a bow is just doing the same thing making themselves feel better because they cannot control the situation. However I would say that there have many good and positive comments.

For the negative detractors of the hunt I think far worse is the wholesale slaughter of bears Polar bears included which are now listed as at risk being taken solely for thier gallbladders and other items and in Alaska there are Koreans some masters that pursue this for a long time now and worse in one case a great number trading 3 dinners in the restruant per bear when the actual finacial return on the dried gallbladder is quite alot of money and other items after processed for shipping. Far less bears would be killed if not for this insentive.


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## Tez3 (May 15, 2012)

Not the 'age old argument', it's the argument of waste over economy. You mistake my points I'm afraid. Killing animals just because you can and leaving their bodies to rot while you take the head to put on your wall is not 'hunting', it's wasteful and pointless. Hunting to provide for your family is a whole different thing, if you'd read my posts and understood them.


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## Master Dan (May 15, 2012)

Maybe the following pictures will help you understand where I teach and live I cover an area hub to 15 Eskimo villages in the the Bearing Strait region as close as 40 miles to Russia to as far North as 700 miles from the North Pole. its been 17 years since I left civilization and teaching here is life and death for the students determines many times if they will have a good life or not whole nother thread on that but for example one little girl was brought to me eyes dull she had witnessed her father cut the eyes out of a man in front of her and then tried to kill her mother she was 7. You cannot imagine how much I would love to see trees and smell grass but I cannot leave them. I went to the far north out of pleas for assistance in the 90's after a huge rich program was killed by a Korean master who was involved in taking $500,000 cash raised in 6 months to build a Dojang and the city donated the land. The money was spent to buy three homes cash in Idaho the IRS came in the city took the land away and the Master left town in discrace. I reestablished the program for three years part to reach out to them and part due to my wifes Eskimo heritage that place was important. We were successfull but on the whole the Native population and city would never truly trust TKD again. Hardest place in the world to live but I will never forget the experience.


View attachment $Barrow TKD pictures 147.jpgView attachment $Barrow TKD pictures 204.jpg


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## Master Dan (May 15, 2012)

The pictures previoius and in this show what life is like here living with people who in some ways have not changed in 10,000 years but language and many other traditions are disapearing fast with the death of elders the traditional harvesting of subsistance foods using in many cases methods developed by the warrior class for survival and the physical training they have to do for that is key to thier identity as a people. My wife and I are pictured together in these photos harvesting whale. The blanket toss above is part of the spring celebration of whaling crews a week long cooking festival. The blanket toss was not a game but was for hunter to see over the horizon for game to hunt. as far as you can see there is not even a bump or tree or anything. My wife and I are with a 21 foot Bow Head Whale took about 1 1/2 hours to cut up a 50 to 70 foot takes up to 12 hours to cut up. All of it is used and eaten shared with those who have none. this place was wealthy and use cats to pull out of ocean after delivered by boat to shore but in remote places I teach like St Lawrence Island close to Russia they must pull out by hand using many people with rope and block tackle using the ice as an anchor. Due to global warming the firs year I was there was the last normal winter with ocean froze over by October 1st now it does not until January and no longer freezes hard so spring whaling has almost stopped due to poor ice and whole families as many as 200 people floating away on broken ice. This place was rich so they used helicopters to rescue everyone now fall whaling using boats mostly. Note the picture of us cutting the whale up is on a famous world war 11 metal track run way about a mile long.


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## Master Dan (May 15, 2012)

The skin boat I am pictured next to is made from Oogrick or bearded seal skin and the men every spring would get excited to work on and chop trailes through ice presure rigges for miles from shore to get next to the open water and hide behind ice blinds the quietly paddle by hand to hunt the whales. I am one of he few white people and the only MA master that I know of that has the right to be part of a crew but since I have a 7 year old to raise do not since the possibillity of death dong this is great no life preserver or survival clothes you go in its not good odds getting out plus even some of the tools the Bomb gun have blown peoples arms off. The art of making an Umiak or skin boat is all but lost to a few villages and those who use metal boats are not as lucky in hunting due to the noise. The mother of my daughter picutured was lost to us a year ago Thanksgiving falling through the ice on a snowmachine in a village about 70 miles from where we live. She was large personality and greatly thought of in that area they rarely find the bodies and two people in thier 20's have perished same spot two weeks later and a year later and never been found. after 7 days with as many as 70 people using nets fish hooks video cameras she was just magically found pushed back up on the ice. Every day until that seals were on top of the ice just outside my home watching me and my daughter go in and out it was so unusual that people the last day came and took pictures even thowing rocks they refused to leave as soon as he body was found they left we like to think of it as she was wanting to know we were alright?

The idiot that took her on the snow machine was stoned and headed right off the trail to a bad spot he was to small to pull her out and she knew he would also die leaving no one to speak so she told him tell my family I love them all and let go so he would live. So if at times I seem impatient with people over petty things you will understand.


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## oftheherd1 (May 15, 2012)

Interesting information on the people there.  The story of the loss of your wife is very poignant.  I am so very sorry for you and your daughter for your loss.  It sounds like you have quite a commitment to that area and its people.  Good on you.


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## Carol (May 15, 2012)

As an avid outdoorswoman, I don't have much issue with legal and responsible hunting.  I do believe that we (as humans) have a responsibility to harvest animals as humanely as possible.   I do not hunt myself, but I enjoy game meats very much...although prefer the very lean game meats such as bison, elk, and caribou to the (fattier) meats such as beef, venison and (presumably) bear.

I worry that in a Chicken McNugget society that we have lost so much connection to the food chain and our ecosystem that we don't even know what we're eating anymore, or where it comes from. 

I worry that conservation efforts, while needed, have produced so much concern over poaching that it has become very difficult for a community to take advantage of the hunt.  Up here, there are many independent butcheries that will cut what you harvest, but much fewer will purchase what you harvest.  If I call a North Country butcher or hunter asking if they have any bear fat (which has gastronomic and mechanical uses) for sale, they may be concerned that the call is a setup -- perhaps I am part of a sting operation trying to catch illegal trade?  I don't support the repeal of the conservation efforts but I do wish it was a bit easier for hunters and non-hunters to share in a hunter's harvest.  A community should work that way.  

Very sorry for your loss, Dan.  Good luck on your hunt, choose your tools wisely.


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## Master Dan (May 15, 2012)

Carol said:


> As an avid outdoorswoman, I don't have much issue with legal and responsible hunting.  I do believe that we (as humans) have a responsibility to harvest animals as humanely as possible.   I do not hunt myself, but I enjoy game meats very much...although prefer the very lean game meats such as bison, elk, and caribou to the (fattier) meats such as beef, venison and (presumably) bear.
> 
> I worry that in a Chicken McNugget society that we have lost so much connection to the food chain and our ecosystem that we don't even know what we're eating anymore, or where it comes from.
> 
> ...



as a young person I apprentised as a meat cutter at 12 and was taught how to cut and prepare wild game I trained with expert Italian and German sausage makers and have owne three wild game processing shops but have perfected methods for home methods and have enjoyed preparing and cooking for many masters and grand masters I stopped hunting in the lower 48 instead wanting to prepare the meat people had not to be wasted and due to being shot at so many times by drunks. I was amazed at how good Caribou and also Muskox is realy great meat. I have friends that have never eaten store meat and get quite sick if they eat it.


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## Dirty Dog (May 15, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> I have friends that have never eaten store meat and get quite sick if they eat it.



This statement is an impossibility.

How could your friends possibly get sick doing something they've never done?


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## elder999 (May 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> This statement is an impossibility.
> 
> How could your friends possibly get sick doing something they've never done?



I'm allergic to strawberries, and I never eat them. I get quite sick if (when?) I do.

Let it go dude......


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## Master Dan (May 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> This statement is an impossibility.
> 
> How could your friends possibly get sick doing something they've never done?



ok change have to had on lunch writting quick give me a break they had not and I served steak from safeway and they go sick due to chemicals and growth hormones we are all used to


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## Dirty Dog (May 15, 2012)

elder999 said:


> I'm allergic to strawberries, and I never eat them. I get quite sick if (when?) I do.
> 
> Let it go dude......



I order to know you're allergic, you had to eat them. At least twice....

Accuracy and precision are important in all areas of life...

Don't get me wrong. I applaud what Master Dan does for the people of his area. But impossible is impossible.


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## Dirty Dog (May 15, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> ok change have to had on lunch writting quick give me a break they had not and I served steak from safeway and they go sick due to chemicals and growth hormones we are all used to



Unwarranted and unsupportable assumption about cause and affect...


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## Makalakumu (May 15, 2012)

My wife gets sick from store bought meat. She can eat grass fed meat just fine, however.


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## pgsmith (May 15, 2012)

I got horribly sick when I ate antelope. Of course, it turned out later that the steak I got had been improperly handled so I had food poisoning. I'm with Mark, beware of unwarranted and unsupported statements.


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## Master Dan (May 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Unwarranted and unsupportable assumption about cause and affect...



so all you know is what is? do you live here have you cooked for natives here? to be fair they use little or no seasonings to and maranate may also have effected them when I cooked and no it was not spoiled. I was cutting meat in 1970 when the grea beef shortage happend and I had freinds that made so much money from opening horse meat shops they bought airplanes do you know that we ship 747's full of horse meat to Franc? trouble is there is an enzyme in horse meat that gives alot of people disentary.


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## Dirty Dog (May 15, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> so all you know is what is? do you live here have you cooked for natives here? to be fair they use little or no seasonings to and maranate may also have effected them when I cooked and no it was not spoiled. I was cutting meat in 1970 when the grea beef shortage happend and I had freinds that made so much money from opening horse meat shops they bought airplanes do you know that we ship 747's full of horse meat to Franc? trouble is there is an enzyme in horse meat that gives alot of people disentary.



No, there is not. Dysentary is an infection, and while it can be caused by any number of pathogens, it is absolutely NOT caused by ingesting an enzyme.


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## Brian King (May 21, 2012)

A bit off the subject of hunting with traditional Japanese Archery Equipment, dysentery, moral judgements and other thread directions, a comment that you wrote Master Dan caught my attention. I hope that I will be forgiven for a bit of a thread drift of my own. Actually a lot of thread drift. My comments could have been sent PM but the issue I want to address is a common issue, and that commonness won the debate between private and public discussion. 

*Master Dan wrote:*


> You cannot imagine how much I would love to see trees and smell grass but I cannot leave them.




It is great to find lifes meaning, and giving to others is a great and honorable path. Giving to others makes a community stronger and can fill a personal need, it can fill a void in a persons life. A person that gives of their time to others is admired by friends and family. There is a hidden danger, obvious but ignored by those closest. Willful suffering for the sake of duty. People will give up family hours to give to others. Pastors, counselors, and yes- even martial arts instructors and coaches, often suffer from this kind of complex and their families suffer tremendously. Family and friends have difficulty be honest about the loss, the theft of relationship because to do so can bring guilt and accusations of jealousy. The coach that finds meaning and identity in giving to others risks losing that meaning if they take time off to share with family or just for their own personal benefit. What if the team, congregation, business, unit, class, village, country get along fine without them? It is easy to become blinded by the good works and lose sight of the bigger picture or more personal picture if you will. 

10,000 years is a long time. Peoples and cultures have come and gone in much less lengths of time. Is it not extreme ego to assume that peoples cannot survive with out one person? If gone for a day, will their lives be over? How about a week, perhaps a month? Could those closest perhaps pick up some of the slack? Are they being allowed to grow or are they being held back, retarded in their own growth because a strong person cannot let go of the mission even for a week? 

A mirror can be a hard thing to look into. We can see our past failures and trials written in the lines and greying. We can see the tired lines and fading of spirit reflected when we are beaten upon and exhausted. Sometimes, taking that mirror to a different location produces amazing results. It is not from the moving of the mirror but the moving our body and the circumstances of course. 

Movement resolves conflict and strengthens and heals the spirit. I strongly recommend that anytime someone hears themselves or someone that they care about say something like _Y__ou cannot imagine how much I would love to see trees and smell grass but I cannot leave them. _when talking about a mission or a service, that a moment is taken to consider that type of sentiment. Is it just. Is it really so? If so for how long?  A week away can be a lifetime in spirit strengthening not just for the person making the comment but in those they are serving as well. A mother has to cut the apron strings, birds pushed out of the nest, and lions sent to fend, it is nature and healthy. 

This time of year, take a week and get lost somewhere in the lower 48.  Spend some time in the mountains climbing ridges and trees. Head South and swim in the ocean that is bath tub warm. Celebrate life by living. When someone says that they would love to-but- they cannot not leave them they are no longer serving other people but are serving a self-imposed prison sentence in my opinion. It ruins relationships, ruins those being served and ruins the person giving. It is a test to be able to set down the tools and take break, it is perhaps the height of self awareness to know when to take a break and seek a change in scenery. The psychology of different environments is easy to feel and experience if one is open and we live in a great time when it is all available for the price of a ticket. 

Master Dan, my condolences on your loss, my prayers lifted for you and your family. Your words and I think your sentiment were the motivation for my words and sentiment but I could easily have been mistaken and may have completely misread your words and circumstances. It is not much of a risk cause if the perspective does not fit you there is no harm other than the loss of some time, my writing and your reading time, but there is a good chance that the sentiment will speak to some other, some other day down the path. 

OK, back to the topic. Yes you can use that funny tall bow, but would avoid being in brush country as it could get tangled in the brush. If you use one you must wear a traditional outfit and wear your hair in a top knot, after all even bears like variety in their diet. Oh, yeah, must be filmed for youtube and start off with...Watch this-hold my beer type of comment. Just kidding, it is getting late here. In truth, I see no issues if it is legal and if doing so only risks your own life and not others in your party. 


Good luck
Warmest Regards
Brian King


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## Master Dan (Jun 3, 2012)

Just an update today my friend that hunts bear every year here by bow had a bear jump the string today twice my other friend was in camp watching from a distance and later had the bear run through his camp. Season closed for now but will open again in August. He suggested we contact Three Rivers Archery for advice on the equipment we want to use. For those of you experience in hunting by bow will understand what Jump The String means.


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## jazscam (Dec 6, 2012)

Hey, I'm curious about hunting with a yumi as well.  I would like to get out and bag a deer or two with one.  I skipped a lot of the middle of this thread due to the whether hunting good debate, so if this has already been asked sorry. 

What is the pull strength of your bow?  For deer I would want at least 50 pounds pull, and while I definitely agree that these style bows were made for with hunting in mind, I feel to be an ethical hunter you need to have a minimum pull weight based on the animal you are hunting.  What weight is needed for brown bear anyway?

If I was concerned about the stopping power my bow and had a few friends hunting with me, one would have a 12 gauge/rifle ready to go or even a .45 holstered.

I think it's a great idea and I am really interested in how your hunt went.

Jay Paton


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## Flying Crane (Dec 6, 2012)

jazscam said:


> Hey, I'm curious about hunting with a yumi as well. I would like to get out and bag a deer or two with one. I skipped a lot of the middle of this thread due to the whether hunting good debate, so if this has already been asked sorry.
> 
> What is the pull strength of your bow? For deer I would want at least 50 pounds pull, and while I definitely agree that these style bows were made for with hunting in mind, I feel to be an ethical hunter you need to have a minimum pull weight based on the animal you are hunting. What weight is needed for brown bear anyway?
> 
> ...



It does not seem like a particularly stealthy design for a bow.  Could be very awkward in hunting wary and shy and skittish wildlife.

I imagine there are laws governing the minimum draw poundage for different types of game.  For deer, it could be something like #40.  For brown bear?  I dunno, but personally I wouldn't go less than #65 even if the laws allowed it and even tho I suspect a weaker bow could do it.  And a damn big and sharp broadhead.  And a good pair of running shoes.  You only need to be able to outrun your buddy, not the bear.


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## Blindside (Dec 6, 2012)

jazscam said:


> Hey, I'm curious about hunting with a yumi as well.  I would like to get out and bag a deer or two with one.  I skipped a lot of the middle of this thread due to the whether hunting good debate, so if this has already been asked sorry.
> 
> What is the pull strength of your bow?  For deer I would want at least 50 pounds pull, and while I definitely agree that these style bows were made for with hunting in mind, I feel to be an ethical hunter you need to have a minimum pull weight based on the animal you are hunting.  What weight is needed for brown bear anyway?



For Washington State the minimum draw weight is 40lbs, needless to say that isn't what I would pack to hunt a Grizz. (which I don't believed is allowed in this state anyway.)


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