# empty hand fma



## cfr (May 4, 2003)

Hello all. I am considering going to a school that appears to have a good curriculum. A combination of JKD, Muay Thai, and FMA. (kali,arnis,escrima) From talking to the instructor it would appear though that most of the teachings are geared towards the FMA. The logic is that alot of the techniques that are taught with weapons can also be applied to empty hand scenarios as well. Would any of you experienced FMA guys agree with that concept? I have taken a class and really liked it alot. I also liked the instructor and the training intensity. My concern though is that if I ever had to defend myself, I would only want to pick up a weapon if I had too. So I guess I dont want to rely too much on weapons training and then not know how to use just my hands.


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## lhommedieu (May 4, 2003)

Weapons-based principles can translate very well to empty-hand principles.  The ease of transition also depends upon which Filipino martial art you practice.  For example, (and from my limited perspective) the transition from weapons-based to empty-hands-based technique in Pekiti Tirsia Arnis seems virtually seemless, which makes this an excellent FMA to study if one is interested in learning an efficient empty-hand system "from the ground up."  Similarly, the principles of Estacada-Weapons are exactly the same as Estacada striking, locking, throwing, etc. On the other hand, San Miguel Eskrima does not have an empty-hand curriculum (aside from Combat Judo) of which I am aware:  learning how to fight without a weapon using this system as a base would involve extrapolating the empty-hand principles from the weapons-based principles.

Sometimes you might hear people say (something like) "It's easy to learn empty-hands in the FMA's because all the movements and principles are learned in the weapons-based practice." I don't think that this kind of statement is entirely true.  I would say that if you are interested in using the FMA's as a foundation for empty-hand self-defence, then you will have to spend as much time practicing the empty-hand component as the weapons component.  It's fine to say, "O.K., here I would throw a kick, or lock my opponent up, or throw him, etc." (based on such-and-such principles) - it's entirely different to be able to kick, lock, or throw with power and efficiency.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## cfr (May 4, 2003)

Actually I just realized that the school also teaches Pentjak-Silat. (just a little more info to help with my original question)


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## Mormegil (May 4, 2003)

I agree with Steve.  You definitely need to practice empty hand hand in hand with weapons (pun inteded).

From the curriculum you stated, I would guess that your JKD school is of the Inosanto lineage.  In such a case, transition to empty hand should be pretty natural.  You should also ask about the empty hand versions of the technique.  They may drill it into you with weapons first to get the muscle memory down, then do the transition.


Most of the Silat you'll do will probably be empty hand stuff (even though Silat is always stated as a weapon art, I haven't really learned much weapons in that class myself, but it's definately blade aware).

About picking up a weapon.  Remember, a pen can be used as a weapon pretty well, keys, or even a cell phone (pocket stick?).

At least you're enjoying it.  Give it a few months, and see what progresses.  Remember, a lot of other systems that teach empty hand first and primarily, may not even get you ready to defend yourself in a ral altercation for quite a while.


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## cfr (May 4, 2003)

Where in LA are you? Where do you train?(Mormegil)


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## Cthulhu (May 4, 2003)

I think one of the biggest misconceptions of the FMA is that they are a weapons-only art.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  Most techniques translate from weapon to weapon, and to empty-hands.  I feel any competent FMA instructor should be able to teach this way.

Cthulhu


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## cfr (May 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *From the curriculum you stated, I would guess that your JKD school is of the Inosanto lineage.  In such a case, transition to empty hand should be pretty natural.  *



I think the instructor has done some training with Inosanto. It would appear that the curriculum is similar.


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## Black Grass (May 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *I think one of the biggest misconceptions of the FMA is that they are a weapons-only art. ...
> Cthulhu *



The second biggest misconception is that all FMA have a empty hand component.  As  lhommedieu ( am I transalating this right? 'the man god') said San Miguel does not have a empty hand ciriculm other than Combat Judo*, which I take is limited to weapon disarms. Many of the Luzon styles do not have empty hand systems and are limited to weapons usage  and weapon disarms. This does not make them any less effective.


I think many FMA systems empty hand components are of recent invention. I believe that many people have taken what they have seen from Guro Dan Inosanto and incorporated it in to there system,even if they won't admit it.


Vince
aka Black Grass








(*note: this is not true of all Combat Judo, Combat Judo can also be akin to Buno or Dumog)


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## bart (May 5, 2003)

Hey There,


There is empty hands in San Miguel, but it is extrapolated from the Stick and Dagger. We work in empty hands as a regular part of training. 

Combat Judo is, in my understanding, the term coined by the old masters for lack of a better one, to refer to grappling and locking of any sort, empty hands or not. It's not only particular to Cebu either. I've heard it from my own family in Luzon and read it in Tagalog comic books when I was a kid.

I have to agree that much FMA has "rediscovered" empty hands in recent years. Much of it is coopted off of watered down Wing Chun taken from Inosanto. But a few system have always had an empty hands component. 

One thing is true, you have to work with the empty hands in order to truly be able to work empty hand techniques effectively and reflexively. Also, the weapon based principle may apply but may definitely not be the best solution to a given situation, especially in regard to kicks and medium range fighting. The weapon based principle does give you something though and that something, though not the best or most efficient at the time, may be enough to keep you safe.


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## Cthulhu (May 5, 2003)

There isn't any Inosanto/LaCoste blend in our training.  All of our empty hand stuff is derived from stick and blade concepts.  Okay, there may be a pinch of Kuntao Silat as well.  

Cthulhu


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