# Problems with Zempo Kaiten



## azerel (Mar 2, 2007)

First, hello to everyone on boards. I stumbled upon them last night and i found them awesome, especially for someone from country that has VERY limited number of MA practicioners.

Anyway, i've been training ninpo taijustsu in Bosnia and Herzegovina's only Bujinkan Dojo for some two months now. I have never been much of a sportsman but I used to work on many strength-demandind jobs so, with 189 cm height and 110 kg weight, I have some fat around waist but also great deal od muscles. I always thought of myself as a slow-moving but strong and durable, not so agile or nimble but able to withstand imense pain without problems.

Now, I came to the problem that after some two months of two times-a-week training, and some very limited training at home due to exams, I'm still unable to do zempo kaiten (forward roll) as smoothly or as efficiently as others in my dojo. I understand fact that I'm newbie, but still it can be embarassing when people who train for year or so do it great, and one can still hear me roll crack (shoulder), crack (hips) and crack (legs)   

My problem is, as I and my Sensei see it, is overly thinking of it and some measure of fear from falling (as I recently had very bad head injury due to falling - this explaining my bad spelling  ) so I always seem to roll sideways, to put knee on ground before shoulder and couple of times I even pressed inner side of my hands with knee.

Anyone had similar problems or anyone has some solutions to this?


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## Kreth (Mar 2, 2007)

Has your instructor had you try rolling from your hands and knees? This is a good drill for beginners with a fear of whacking their head on the mat. Also, try letting your breath out slowly as you roll.


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## bydand (Mar 2, 2007)

Kreth said:


> Has your instructor had you try rolling from your hands and knees? This is a good drill for beginners with a fear of whacking their head on the mat. Also, try letting your breath out slowly as you roll.



You beat me to it.  I was going to say the exact thing about starting from hands and knees, as well as breathing.  
To keep it simple to remember to breath during rolls, my first Instructor used to tell us to say our names under or breath while we were rolling.  It was a big help to everybody as beginners to remember to keep breathing and not hold it in during the roll itself.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 2, 2007)

Work on rolling from your hands and knees and then move to squating.  Hopefully that will help.


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## rutherford (Mar 2, 2007)

Here's another thread on rolling with some good tips:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27250

Two months is not that great a time, especially if you aren't training at home.  Rolling is an essential skill.  Don't worry about the fact that you still have work to do, but do try to practice a few every day.


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## rutherford (Mar 2, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Work on rolling from your hands and knees and then move to squating.  Hopefully that will help.



You know, from squatting is one I haven't done much.

Laying flat
Hands and knees
On one knee
Squatting
Standing
Flying
On one knee is where my old training group started new students.  Hands and knees is what I find to be easist, and where I'd start a training progression.  Laying flat is where I find the most skill development for myself, and Standing is what I practice the most.


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## saru1968 (Mar 2, 2007)

NO point repeating 'hands and knees' it seems..lol.

The approach i used with small children was to start sitting on the ground and then knee on all fours and get them to do 'doggie rolls' sideways left and right.

Then backwards it was from a squating position onto thier backs until i was confident that they would 'turn their necks' then continue backwards into a kneeling position.


Forwards roll, squating again, place hands first directly in front on the floor shoulder width apart and a few 'roly polys' tucking the head in just to get used to the idea of a roll.

Next, same start position except this time move your arms over so your left hand is in front of your right knee and the right hand is even further over, then tilt the head to the right and just do a 'roly poly' as before but this time they are rolling through the gap of neck/shoulder.

repeat a few times, when this becomes easy. start from squatting again, this time leave right hand where it is and pass your left hand through the gap(hole) underside of the right arm and the floor untill you feel you are falling forward then roll.

then work your way up till standing.

 So much more complicated to explain than show but it worked well for the kids, plus the Friday night alcohol does not help, i mean in the explination not the kids..lol


ps..don't hold your breath..breathe..a stomach full of air can ruin your roll.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 2, 2007)

I wont give you advice on how to roll, cuz my ukemi sucks, but I do like the ukemi drills starting from being on the ground in Sheila Haddad's dvd if you can get a copy.​


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## macfion (Mar 4, 2007)

Check on "Team Ukemi" over on you tube


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## Don Roley (Mar 6, 2007)

My  advice is to lie on your back and get used to rolling from your left hip to your right shoulder and back while tucking your head in. And  of course from your right hip to your shoulder and back. Then move on trying it form your knees. Take it slow and easy. There is no rush. 

One of my psycology proffesors recounted a discussion he had with a student considering a educational choice. After telling him how long he would have to take to get a particular qualification, this proffesor was told that he would be too old by the time the needed courses were out of the way. My proffesor shot back, how old will you be at that point in time if you don't take the courses.

We all get old. Not all of us take the time to learn as we get older. Do not get discouraged by the need to take more time. Just keep in mind that you are improving yourself even if it takes more time than you would like.


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## antizen (Mar 6, 2007)

azerel said:


> First, hello to everyone on boards. I stumbled upon them last night and i found them awesome, especially for someone from country that has VERY limited number of MA practicioners.
> 
> Anyway, i've been training ninpo taijustsu in Bosnia and Herzegovina's only Bujinkan Dojo for some two months now. I have never been much of a sportsman but I used to work on many strength-demandind jobs so, with 189 cm height and 110 kg weight, I have some fat around waist but also great deal od muscles. I always thought of myself as a slow-moving but strong and durable, not so agile or nimble but able to withstand imense pain without problems.
> 
> ...



Azerel,

I too am damn old, and share the same body type as you. All I can claim is that my ukemi/Taihenjutsu is damn good considering both these factors.

The reality is everyone is different. Not every Budoka is going to be able to roll as well as everyone else. Accept that and move on. Your progress is your personal victory and not a competition.

In terms of a fear of falling - this is age related as well. As we grow older our bodies and minds inherantly understand that we are more at risk for injury, and heal more slowly than we may have when we were young.

I worked with a woman years ago who, after a severe ankle injury skiing, could not jump even as far as off of a curb. Her body simply would not allow her to take this risk.

I have noticed as the years have passed that I have become less comfortable with jumping from heights. One way I have worked on this is at a local beach jumping off of a sea wall that graduates in height, from something like 3 feet to nearly 8 feet. Jumping on sand is, of course, painless, and this kind of training has allowed me to push back my mental tolerance quite a bit.

In my opinion, that actual measurement of what we do matters only when compared to others, which is useless. What matters so much when we are older is that we *improve* rather than move into decline, which of course is the natural state of human life.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 6, 2007)

Dive maniacally head long onto the tatami, hands stuffed in your pants, and break the fall with your face. After 3-4 repetitions and a few missing teeth, take out your hands. Using them to initiate a roll instead of a face plant will seem quite natural at this point.

I'm kidding...don't do that.

Don't worry about the cracking noises; it's just tension leaving stiffened joints...time and repetition will see them loosening and adapting to the new movements.

As for rolling...good advice thus far. I would add just this: After a point, stop thinking about it. You already know how, and this mental block is preventing your from living it. Surrender to the moment such as it is, and allow the roll to happen, with no attention to expectation of the outcome. Sounds froo, I know, but you'd be amazed what happens when you let go.

If you're falling, don't try not to fall; dive.

D.


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## antizen (Mar 7, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Dive maniacally head long onto the tatami, hands stuffed in your pants, and break the fall with your face. After 3-4 repetitions and a few missing teeth, take out your hands. Using them to initiate a roll instead of a face plant will seem quite natural at this point.
> 
> I'm kidding...don't do that.
> 
> ...



reply deleted.


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## Shidoshi0153 (May 5, 2007)

Forgive me if this seems like an advertisement.  That is not my intent.  I have recently opened an online dojo at www.impactninjutsu.com.  The reason I mention this is because we will be adding a "trial week" to the website that is 100% free and open to the general public.  One class that is offered in that trial week is my first class on zenpo kaiten.  It is a 15 minute class that may assist you in your rolling.  I break down zenpo kaiten and give various exercises you might want to try.  I apologize if this breaks decorum of the post, but it is a good video that is very relevant to this topic.  If you have any questions, please let me know.


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## saru1968 (May 5, 2007)

Without sounding rude, yes it does sound like a advert..lol

Btw what are you teaching?

Is it Bujinkan? otherwise why use the Shidoshi tilte?

Also don't you think being a Godan is a bit early on the road to invent your own system?

cheers


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## Shidoshi0153 (May 5, 2007)

> Without sounding rude, yes it does sound like a advert..lol


No problem, I re-read it and it does sound like an ad.  Sorry about that.



> Is it Bujinkan? otherwise why use the Shidoshi tilte?


No, it is not bujinkan, it is bansenshukai but it is heavily influenced by my bujinkan training.  I am very proud of where I have come from and the title shidoshi is an easy way to distinguish myself from the rest of my instructors.



> Also don't you think being a Godan is a bit early on the road to invent your own system?


This one is kinda tricky even if you simply go by rank.  I guess the real answer is no since I did start the system.  I do have extensive martial arts and defensive tactics training.  I would not start the system if I was not confident and proud with the training methods.  The system is still young and I feel I will grow into it as it matures.


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## saru1968 (May 6, 2007)

Fair enough, i always appreciate honest answers.


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