# Rank titles in Kenpo?



## GouRonin

I can't find my "Infinite Insights" book at the moment. Anyone have the list of titles that go with Rank at the black levels?

Thanx.

 :uhoh:


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## GouRonin

If you think about it, these books are close to at least 11 years old. They're still an ok read, although a bit "wordy," but what changes do you think would have been made to the system by now?

I myself think they would have gone to the 10/16/20 technique bel system. I also think that there would be a bigger emphasis on nerve strikes within the techniques, (BUT NOT TO THE EXCEPTION OF PLACING ALL THE IMPORTANCE ON THEM) more joint locks and grappling, and a greater emphasis on knife and stickwork.

Any thoughts?


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## GouRonin

No more puffy than any other art. There are titles and crap all over the place. Guru, Shihan, Sensei, Sifu, Punong Guru, Professor, Datu.

I think they maybe sound odd to you because you don't hear them regularily. For me, the arnis titles sound funny. 

Other than that you have to remember that Parker wanted to make the art more "American" because that is where he was and wanted it to be. That is why the new titles where created.

The curriculum of Kenpo is very patterned and extensive, almost military like.


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## GouRonin

They are really only formal titles. Most of the people who have them prefer "Mr." or "Mrs" etc because those are the titles we use in our society. In fact most American Kenpo schools will not use the word "Sensei" or Sifu" for the most part as Parker wanted to get away from the asian use of them and go with what we as a society use. 

Again, he called it "American Kenpo" for this reason. One thing about them that I do like is that he made 1st black a Junior instructor. This sort of de-mystified the idea of a Black belt being all powerful. he really did a lot of work de-mystifying the arts and trying to make them into the science they are.

:asian:


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## Rob_Broad

Titles are only a sign of respect if they are said with heart felt sincerity.  If you say the title to someone it is respectful, if you insist on the title it is pompous.

Most of the time we callthe person Mr. or Ms. or Mrs. with their last name.  That is respectful as well.  Some people put too much stock into titles, it is a waste of breath for some.

When I teach I am Mr. Broad, I don't care who it is on my floor, during that time that is my name.  When I am off the floor, I am Rob.  I have been called many other names, but lets just stick with Rob.

Yes the whore lives


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## Not Important

Actually the titles have change alot over the years, back in the late 60's and early 70's 3rd degree black belts were called Masters.

Proffesor has always been above Master.  Many people also call the following.
8th: Associate Master of the Arts,
9th: Master of the Arts,
10th: Grand Master of the Arts,
and Senior Grand Master of the Arts reserved only for the founder of a system.

The Infinite Insights Into Kenpo were all written at least 10 years before they were published, so much of the information contained in them is also dated.


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## GouRonin

If people want to use their dojo for that, hell, it's their school. I used to be opposed it until I remembered, you reap what you sow.

I mean, IF Tatum was like that, what about it? I never hear anything bad about his Kenpo.

If you don't like what he does, don't train there. I have left schools for similar reasons. I didn't like it so I left people who didn't mind it to their own.


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## GouRonin

Remember our conversation in the restaurant? I found that in "Triggered Salute" that the bicep insert was taking away my technique as I wanted it. But if I change the angle of the strike I can use it to not only check the arm but also use opposing forces. Thanks for giving me a outside look at what I was doing!
:iws:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> *JI (Junior Instructor) if he or she is a first degree Black Belt
> AI (Associate Instructor) for a second degree Black Belt
> HI (Head Instructor) for a third degree Black Belt
> SI (Senior Instructor) for a forth degree Black Belt
> AP (Associate Professor) for a fifth degree Black Belt
> P (Professor) for a sixth degree Black Belts
> SP (Senior Professor) for those reaching seventh degree Black Belt
> AMA (Associate Master of the Arts) for an eighth degree Black Belt
> MA (Master of the Arts) for an ninth degree Black Belt
> SMA (Senior Master of the Arts) for a tenth degree Black Belt.
> *



I must say, this reads like puffery. Was it really necessary for someone to create a new title for each and every one of the ten ranks? I think I'd rather be a Senior Professor than an Associate Master of the Arts, from the sound of it. I really don't mean to insult anyone's art, but it seems so self-important to generate this list of titles that is so extensive, so patterned, and so unconnected to the ranks that they are difficult to remember.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *No more puffy than any other art. There are titles and crap all over the place. Guru, Shihan, Sensei, Sifu, Punong Guru, Professor, Datu.
> 
> I think they maybe sound odd to you because you don't hear them regularily. For me, the arnis titles sound funny.
> *



Perhaps there is some of that, but I am not aware of another art that has a separate title for each and every one of the ten degrees of black belt. I imagine there are others; I just can't name one. Also, bear in mind that some of the titles you cite--shihan, datu--are not given automatically with a promotion to every person but rather as a separate honor to some.



> *
> Other than that you have to remember that Parker wanted to make the art more "American" because that is where he was and wanted it to be. That is why the new titles where created.
> *



Yes, I can understand that. It's hard making a new tradition. This one seems especially forced. Are these titles often used, say in introducing a person or when listing their name?


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> *At the time SGM Parker was "assembling" these various aspects of the art, it was important to him give the training sort of a collegiate atmosphere.*



I wasn't fully aware of this, though it sounds somewhat familiar. This makes a bit more sense, then.



> *
> Around this same time, wearing the school patch on the breast of a smart looking sport coat was also the chic, lending a certain air of "fraternity" or "exclusive club" effect.  Look at the old pics from the late 60s*



Yes, I can picture them--I do remember seeing those pictures.


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## arnisador

What are the conventions for the use of GM and SGM (which I understand means either _Supreme_ or _Senior_Grandmaster) in kenpo? Are they for 10th degrees only as *Not Important* suggests?


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## KenpoGirl

I dug out my infinite Insights volumes and blew the dust off of them.  So that I can help you out.

Kenpo Black Belt Titles are as follows:

JI (Junior Instructor) if he or she is a first degree Black Belt
AI (Associate Instructor) for a second degree Black Belt
HI (Head Instructor) for a third degree Black Belt
SI (Senior Instructor) for a forth degree Black Belt
AP (Associate Professor) for a fifth degree Black Belt
P (Professor) for a sixth degree Black Belts
SP (Senior Professor) for those reaching seventh degree Black Belt
AMA (Associate Master of the Arts) for an eighth degree Black Belt
MA (Master of the Arts) for an ninth degree Black Belt
SMA (Senior Master of the Arts) for a tenth degree Black Belt.

Hope this helps.

d


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## Kenpo viking

I don't train American kenpo karate. I train Ed Parker's Kenpo karate. 

which is a big diferents in my eyes. Ed Parker's kenpo left the americas long ago about 40 year ago.

I'm not much for halliluja U.S.A it's all about an art developed by a man not a nation. America can not take credit for this. But I understand in there internal identification process in the US the name came about.

I train a system. Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate period
And I train and teach it in Sweden and in any other place that are interested to see my personal style of the art ( my interpretation).
Which has been formed by many instructors during the years.

Respectfully
Ingmar Johansson
Sweden



:angel: :viking3: :viking2: :mp5:


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## Kenpo viking

Thank you Dennis for your historical input. It was interesting to read that Mr Parker took out the word karate in a very early stage.

I know there is a big diferent between our countries. Karate is in many peoples ears a negative word here in Sweden. Therefore we have taken out the word from our name. Our schools name is Kenpo self-defence studio and it has done us very good.

And not signing my letters with Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate and leave the word karate out is not a bad idea.

The word karate make me think on a hard Japanese system with very low stances. Something we don't do. I feel the word karate gives us unjust name for something we are not. 

I have to think a little on the idea to only sign my letters with Ed Parker's Kenpo. That is food for thought.

I agree no organisation or name can change the feelings I have for my martial art friends independent what they call themselves.

Ones again thank you for your kind words.

Respectfully

Ingmar Johansson
Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate Sweden






:asian: :rtfm: :viking2: :viking3: :asian:


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## vincefuess

At the time SGM Parker was "assembling" these various aspects of the art, it was important to him give the training sort of a collegiate atmosphere.  This served the purpose of seperating AK from the traditional oriental (as it was called then) martial arts in it's methods, as well as add a certain degree of "scholarly class" so they wouldn't be perceived as a bunch of ***-kicking ruffians.

Around this same time, wearing the school patch on the breast of a smart looking sport coat was also the chic, lending a certain air of "fraternity" or "exclusive club" effect.  Look at the old pics from the late 60s- anybody who was anybody wore these suits and ties with the "crest-breast" thing.

It was all part of elevating *** kicking to a scholarly and dignified level.


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## vincefuess

In Infinite Insights (whichever volume the rank titles are listed), SGM Parker explains his reasoning in assigning these titles to the various ranks.  I gave you my "nutshell version".  SGM Parker was very keen on higher education, he was quite a mover and shaker at Brigham Young University when he was there!  His wife tells of those days in her book "Memories of Ed Parker".


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## vincefuess

At first it was viewed as evil, but with an honest eye one sees that it has always been the case, and ever shall be.  The martial arts have always split and divided, just as our own cells do.  Purists want a pure source, but there really is no such thing.  As knowledge is handed down, it is colored by those who hand it down.  Once in awhile, we are blessed with a man like Ed Parker who is capable of encompassing and translating knowledge in such a manner as to be truly revolutionary.  He took what he (at first) learned from Chow and revolutionized it- not only that- but he was a great communicator and teacher.  He himself presented the material as a flowing, learning, changing, evolving thing.

It is a waste of time to dispute- it is better to absorb and learn.  I do not posess the mind or skill of Ed Parker, and I will never make an impact on the world like he did.  BUT- Kenpo is a part of me, and I share it how I can with those I can.  I'm okay with that.

One legacy Ed Paker left for us is that of open-mindedness tempered with wisdom.  Most everyone you meet has something to offer, just be willing to absorb it.  I never met the man, but I feel he would agree with that statement.  His teachings meant different things to different people, but they were HUGE nonethe less.  I think that is a bigger picture.

Sorry- I am feeling particularly introspective tonight.

Vince


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## vincefuess

I heard through a few other Kenpoists that Tatum had fallen out with Mr. Parker over Tatum's zeal for having sex with students- one of whom got mad and turned things ugly.  This is only hearsay, an I am posting it here to see if any of you can either dispell it or give it credence.

I heard this from a couple of totally unrelated sources, so it is either a fairly widespread rumor, or perhaps true.

I had an instructor once who used his school as a meat market and it caused tons of trouble.  The temptation can be great, but it must be avoided.


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> *I dug out my infinite Insights volumes and blew the dust off of them.  So that I can help you out.
> 
> Kenpo Black Belt Titles are as follows:
> 
> JI (Junior Instructor) if he or she is a first degree Black Belt
> AI (Associate Instructor) for a second degree Black Belt
> HI (Head Instructor) for a third degree Black Belt
> SI (Senior Instructor) for a forth degree Black Belt
> AP (Associate Professor) for a fifth degree Black Belt
> P (Professor) for a sixth degree Black Belts
> SP (Senior Professor) for those reaching seventh degree Black Belt
> AMA (Associate Master of the Arts) for an eighth degree Black Belt
> MA (Master of the Arts) for an ninth degree Black Belt
> SMA (Senior Master of the Arts) for a tenth degree Black Belt.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> d *


 I would just like to know if this title ranking is universal among the majority of the American Kenpo Schools because Master Tatum  gives the 3rd Dan  the Senior Title And 4th Dan the Head Instructor Title. This could be a misprint? The 10th Dan has no title. It just states that " The rank is so respected by peers and students that the persons word affects the course of the art'. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Klondike93

I find it interesting how when Mr. Parker died a lot of the high ranking black belts said there would never be another 10th degree as that was Mr. Parker's only. Yet here we are 10 years later and you need all of your limbs to count the number of 10th degrees on. Just currious how others feel.

:asian: 

Chuck


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## Klondike93

But what are they doing? It looks like Ed Parker's American Kenpo to me, and he can be the only 10th there. One thing I allways admired about Mr. Parker was his humility about his rank. He dies and suddenly a lot of his top black belts believe they are now 10th.

:asian: 

Chuck


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## Klondike93

I didn't know that Tatum had broken away from Parker before he died. Do you know why? I thought he did it after Mr. Parker died so he could be out of the shadows so to speak.
Good answer though GoldenDragon7. 

:asian: 

Chuck


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## Goldendragon7

No, Not Important is a little off in his/her information.  As listed in the Infinite Insights Book 2 page 10, the correct Black Belt titles are as follows........

 1st Degree Black = Junior Instructor
 2nd Degree Black = Associate Instructor
 3ed Degree Black = Head Instructor
 4th Degree Black = Senior Instructor
 5th Degree Black = Associate Professor
 6th Degree Black = Professor
 7th Degree Black = Senior Professor
 8th Degree Black = Associate Master
 9th Degree Black = Master
10th Degree Black = Senior Master

GrandMaster and Senior GrandMaster are not mentioned.

After Mr. Parker died many of the loyal higest ranking Black Belts started referring to Mr. Parker as the "Senior" Grand Master.  This was done out of respect to maintain Edmund K. Parker's position in proper perspective in relation to HIS art (American Kenpo) since several of his top Black Belts moved on to become Founders, 10th Degrees & Grandmasters of thier own Ed Parker Kenpo Systems.  The fitting title spread throughout the world and stuck.



:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

Many left and did their own thing while Mr. Parker was alive, so it is no surprise that this happened, besides, if you check history, every major martial arts organization has had splits from its top people either prior to the main leader passing or soon there after.

In a perfect world it sure would be nice to have a higher degree of order and unity.  I guess we will just have to accept the State as it is today and do as we always have done which is search for the truth until you find it.

When you do, be appreciatiave of what you have and try to give back to the future generations.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

Well, everyone has their own agendas.  So each broke off and did what they thought best or were forced to do.

Joe Palanzo was the first to immediately leave the IKKA and develop his own organization.  He is first last and always a businessman, I salute him for his talent.

Larry Tatum was not in the IKKA for a couple of years prior to Mr. Parker's death so he started his own thing.

Now we are down to 3 choices......

Dave Hebler was not in the mix for some time  so he began the OKKA, same with Chuck Sullivan and his IKCA.

Several others got together and formed the AKSC (LaBounty, Kelly, Planas, White, Trejo, Sepulveda, Conatser, Duffy, Speakman, Hawkins, Edmund Jr. and a host of other black belt..... but this didn't serve as a promotional organization so several broke out of that and formed their own organizations: Hawkins UKS, Speakman's AKKS, Conatser's IKKO, Duffy's AKF, Paul Mills eventually started the AKKI, Mike Pick with his UKF,m Skip Hancock kept with his Kenpo 2000 group, and others that I may off the top of my head have missed no disrespect intended. 

Each talented individuals that are Keeping Kenpo alive and well as each sees fit ..... all have differing talents and objectives and all are doing a fine job today with their own groups.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

With all due respect, Ed Parker "HIMSELF" was the one that termed what he wanted his art called which was Ed Parker's "American" Kenpo.  He purposely dropped the Karate in recent years.  This particular "term" (American) came into play in or around early 1980.  Mr. Parker's desire was to desginate that this was the first Art to be actually formed on American soil, not a transplanted system from another cournty such as many of the Chinese Arts which have been here for many many years prior.  Okinawan, Japanese and Korean Arts followed as well.  American is not trying to claim title Ed Parker was.

I agree with you that Ed Parker's Art, did in fact, become truly international (Canada, Mexico, Chile, as well as other South American countires, Australia, Japan, Ireland, England, Germany, Sweden, Denmark and other surrounding European courntries years ago.

I'm sure he meant no disrespect to other countries by the use of the term "American". and I also agree with you that our art is greatly about the Art and the man that developed it and not so much the country, but you must realize that Mr. Parker was a proud patriot by his own choice.

I train the same system as you do.  Ed Parker's American Kenpo.  I think you should call it Ed Parker's Kenpo, (that would be my second preferable choice) since Mr. Parker eventually wanted the term "Karate" dropped from his systems name due to it being Japanese or Okinawan in origin.

Keep in mind, there are several "Names" for the same system (Ed Parker's American Kenpo) such as Kenpo Karate, Chinese Kenpo, Chinese Kenpo Karate, Ed Parker's Karate, Ed Parker's Kenpo, Parkers Kenpo Karate, and several others.  

No matter what you call it, it still is "Kenpo" and that like you stated is really the main thrust of what we should focus on.  I have friends in "Kenpo" that use many of the terms listed above to  designate their businesses but it is just a matter of semantics.  If it comes to a history lesson then I will state the facts for the record, other than that ....... lets just learn from each other regardless what you call it.

So, Ingmar, call it what makes you feel good, I still respect you for the great job that you are doing in Sweden!


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

Yes, we are on the same page.   I only use the word when I have to for business recognition.  Here in the US, Karate is the one word everyone knows and thinks or references some form of Martial Arts with.  Kung Fu, Kenpo, Shotokan, Wado, Praying Mantis, Won Hop Kuen Do, Escrima, Kali, Tae Kwon Do or many other words when used alone does not give the General Public a quick "one word" reference to what business is in this location.  

I know of many different typed of Martial Art Studios (most of them listed above) across the American that only use the name "Karate" on their sign.  It is less expensive and has that one word eye catching ability.  Once people come into the stuios each one then explains exactly which version of "Martial Art" they are doing.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

http://www.kenpokarateshreveport.com/Larry Tatum.htm

From Dave Hoppers site.......

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

others may vary a little..........:asian:


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## cypress

In Hawaii professor is the highest title.  It means you are the founder or head of your system/orginization


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## jfarnsworth

I believe in the beginning or ending of that article he stated that he changed some wording (left some stuff out and put others in he thought was necessary). I've got that article around here somewhere.
Jason Farnsworth


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## tonbo

Our school works very similarly to Nightingale's.  Black ranks and instructors (identified by a red gi top) are called "Mr.", "Mrs.", or "Ms.", accordingly.  When taking class, all students are referred to by their first names.  Outside of class, when in street clothes, the students still call the instructors and Black Belts by "Mr.", "Mrs.", or "Ms.".....but that's just the way it's always been.

My head instructor actually wants people to call him by his first name when they are on a friendly basis with him.  I am, and I still can't bring myself to do it........same goes with the higher rank Black Belts.....can't call them anything but by their "social" titles (Mr, Mrs, etc.).

I have read of the advanced titles, but have never actually seen them in practice.  I don't disagree with them, but just haven't seen them used.

Peace--


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## Michael Billings

Great String guys!!!
:asian: 

Thanks for the brief history Dennis, it makes it clearer in my head ... and I was around then.  UKS was formed initially with Mr. Speakman and Mr. Hawkins before some business dispute forced a separation and Mr. Speakman and John Sepuveda getting together. 

After Larry Tatum left, Bryan Hawkins managed the West LA school, that was part of my reason for going with them, besides I had seen him teach and done seminars that rocked.  

I am glad some of the controversy is dying down now and people are getting on with teaching the Art.  There are different things emphasized as different instructors have different interest, strengths, or relationships with Mr. Parker.

Excellent post "They Call Me Bruce??"

Keep it Real,
-Michael


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## Seig

When I told my students we may be dropping the title "Sensei", they were quite put out.  We'll see where it goes.


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## Nightingale

in the school I train at, anyone who is teaching a class is addressed as Mr. or Ms., whether they're a black belt or not. The reasoning being that they are in front of the class and you are in the class because they know something you don't, and you need to respect that, and appreciate that they are willing to share. As a brown belt, I teach some classes, and when I'm teaching people address me as Ms. when I'm not teaching I get called by my first name. black belts, however, when in the studio, are always addressed as Mr. or Ms., whether they're teaching or not. Outside the studio, its up to them.  I have some instructors that insist on first names outside the school, and some that prefer Mr. or Ms. all the time.  We don't really hold with the fancy titles. I think I've only heard my instructor addressed by a title once or twice in the nine years I've trained with him.


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## Nightingale

hehe. I know what you mean...

my sparring instructor for about two years and I became good friends. he told me a million times to call him John, but it took me a few months to get used to it.  now when I see him in the studio, I have to remind myself to call him Mr. instead of by his first name. he'd laugh it off, but if my head instructor heard it, I'd be doing push-ups for a year because brown belts ought to know better. LOL.


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## Nightingale

yes please...

enlighten us!
or at least give us the website addy!


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## Nightingale

very informative...thanks.


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## ikenpo

Agreed,

Mr and Mrs or Ms. isn't a bad way to address everyone in a studio. That way there is a general respect that travels across the board.

jb:asian:


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## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Les _
> 
> *
> 
> At a camp recently I met a 6th Degree, whom I have been in contact with by e-mail for some time.
> The very first words he said to me were; "Hi, call me Derek"
> 
> Then I introduced him to the Orange belt student who was with me. So he said; "Hi, Call me Derek"  My student was stunned.
> 
> Les *



Is this really that big of a deal? My assumption would be that eveyone would give everyone a common level of respect. I agree with calling instructors Mr & Mrs, but I don't think that is that big of a deal. Maybe I've just been exposed to the system for so long that the pecking order feels very natural. As long as respect is given to instructor and student everything is cool.

jb


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## KenpoDave

Larry Tatum wrote an article on the rank titles that appeared in (I believe) Black Belt Magazine.  I have the article (with his permission) posted on my website.

Dave


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## Les

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> 
> *At the time SGM Parker was "assembling" these various aspects of the art, it was important to him give the training sort of a collegiate atmosphere.  This served the purpose of seperating AK from the traditional oriental (as it was called then) martial arts in it's methods, as well as add a certain degree of "scholarly class" so they wouldn't be perceived as a bunch of ***-kicking ruffians.
> 
> Around this same time, wearing the school patch on the breast of a smart looking sport coat was also the chic, lending a certain air of "fraternity" or "exclusive club" effect.  Look at the old pics from the late 60s- anybody who was anybody wore these suits and ties with the "crest-breast" thing.
> 
> It was all part of elevating *** kicking to a scholarly and dignified level. *



I can remember wearing a Blazer with the Crest on it, meeting Mrs Parker and some of the family off the plane in Jersey, Europe. That was in the early 90's.

I think these days, people go for the jackets with their name and crest on the back. Probably because we don't dress smartly as much as in the "old days"

Les


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## Les

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> [
> 
> My head instructor actually wants people to call him by his first name when they are on a friendly basis with him.  I am, and I still can't bring myself to do it........same goes with the higher rank Black Belts.....can't call them anything but by their "social" titles (Mr, Mrs, etc.).
> 
> Peace-- [/B]



At a camp recently I met a 6th Degree, whom I have been in contact with by e-mail for some time.
The very first words he said to me were; "Hi, call me Derek"

Then I introduced him to the Orange belt student who was with me. So he said; "Hi, Call me Derek"  My student was stunned.

Les


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## Les

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> 
> Is this really that big of a deal?
> 
> jb [/B]



Actually Jason, it's not a big deal for me. Perhaps I didn't express myself properly, but for my Orange belt student, it was a big deal.

He hasn't been with me long, and is still tuned to the formalities of his previous school. (Perhaps they are more formal than me)

Think back to when you were an Orange belt, how would you have reacted then?

Really, I was just making a comment. No big deal.

Les

"When you drink the water, remember the spring from which it came" _Paul Mills_


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## Rich_Hale

I can clear up one little area of this discussion. 

Attached is a photo (close-up) of the signature line of my 2nd Black certificate from Mr. Parker. Note the school code of 1-01-1EPSMA-02. 

You can guess what the 1-01-1 is. The EP is Ed Parker, then his title of SMA, or Senior Master of the Art. The 02 is for Santa Monica Studio. Pasadena was 01


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## nlkenpo

Hi all,

  Just to add my two cents worth:

 In our school in the Netherlands all instructors are named by their first name. Some of us have their last name on the Gi, but the students call all of us by first name, including our chief, Professor Hesselmann is called Hans by everybody, including those who come in for their first lesson. The formal titles look good on certificates and maybe sometimes on official letters, but are not to be used when you're amongst friends, which is where I am when I'm teaching Kenpo.

 We have even skipped all the formalities that divide instructors and students. The person in front with the big mouth is usually the instructor, so there's no need to wear your beltknot at the side, or for the instructor to wear a different color gi (we all wear black, knot in the middle).

 I believe that respect comes from within and is paid by the way people approach me, not by calling me mister or head instructor, nor by wearing their belt at the side.

 I listen to Marcel, and I listen to Mr de Jong, but who-ever uses that within our school, I tell them to stop doing that. We're all kenpo-students who are on the same road towards knowledge and skill. Some of us have travelled a bit further up the road than others, but it's still the same road. Therefore there's no need whatsoever for any distance between me and the students.

  Nuf said,
  Marcel


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## John Bishop

nlkenpo said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> Just to add my two cents worth:
> 
> In our school in the Netherlands all instructors are named by their first name. Some of us have their last name on the Gi, but the students call all of us by first name, including our chief, Professor Hesselmann is called Hans by everybody, including those who come in for their first lesson. The formal titles look good on certificates and maybe sometimes on official letters, but are not to be used when you're amongst friends, which is where I am when I'm teaching Kenpo.
> 
> We have even skipped all the formalities that divide instructors and students. The person in front with the big mouth is usually the instructor, so there's no need to wear your beltknot at the side, or for the instructor to wear a different color gi (we all wear black, knot in the middle).
> 
> I believe that respect comes from within and is paid by the way people approach me, not by calling me mister or head instructor, nor by wearing their belt at the side.
> 
> I listen to Marcel, and I listen to Mr de Jong, but who-ever uses that within our school, I tell them to stop doing that. We're all kenpo-students who are on the same road towards knowledge and skill. Some of us have travelled a bit further up the road than others, but it's still the same road. Therefore there's no need whatsoever for any distance between me and the students.
> 
> Nuf said,
> Marcel


Everytime someone decides to change some things around, or not follow the traditions established by the founder of their art, they get farther and farther away from what made their art and their founder special in the first place.
If he were alive today, who here would tell him "I've decided to teach your system ( Ed Parker's American Kenpo), without the traditions you established?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Everytime someone decides to change some things around, or not follow the traditions established by the founder of their art, they get farther and farther away from what made their art and their founder special in the first place.
> If he were alive today, who here would tell him "I've decided to teach your system ( Ed Parker's American Kenpo), without the traditions you established?



I would, but who the hell am I anyway?


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## gmkuoha

This is the way Professor Chow had it set up in the 40's-70's.
 1st dan-4th dan: Sensei (teacher)
 5th-7th dan: Chiefs Low-high chiefs)
 8th-9th dan: Professor
 10th: Grandmaster (only one should be in the entire system)

 In the 70's-present it has changed a bit now.
 1st-4th dan: Sensei (teacher)
 5th-7th dan: Shihan (master teacher)
 8th-9th dan: Professor
 10th dan: Grandmaster (only one in the entire system).

 Hope this helps,
 Grandmaster Kuoha


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## nlkenpo

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Everytime someone decides to change some things around, or not follow the traditions established by the founder of their art, they get farther and farther away from what made their art and their founder special in the first place.
> If he were alive today, who here would tell him "I've decided to teach your system ( Ed Parker's American Kenpo), without the traditions you established?


 Without having known the man himself, but having read most of his work, I guess Mr. Parker would have wanted us to adapt anything to the circumstances at hand.

 For me there's no reason to think that should only count for self defense techniques. So if in our country the method I descibed works better, than that's what we should do.

 Marcel


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## John Bishop

nlkenpo said:
			
		

> Without having known the man himself, but having read most of his work, I guess Mr. Parker would have wanted us to adapt anything to the circumstances at hand.
> 
> For me there's no reason to think that should only count for self defense techniques. So if in our country the method I descibed works better, than that's what we should do.
> 
> Marcel


 I guess it's just a matter of respect for what was passed on to you.  And a desire to keep true to the legacy.  Maybe if you had known the man, you would understand the reason's why.


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## nlkenpo

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I guess it's just a matter of respect for what was passed on to you. And a desire to keep true to the legacy. Maybe if you had known the man, you would understand the reason's why.


 With all due respect for your point of view, I do understand the reasons why, but that does not mean I should copy what was passed on without thinking about it and adjusting it to our situation. That would hardly be a tribute to this man who spend a lot of his energy into making us think, not copy.

 I have a great deal of respect for what was passed on to me, and as long as it's up to me, I'd keep the system as it is, with additions but no changes or deletions. For the traditions, I teach students what the traditions are and how they are to be used, we just don't use them everyday. We actually sometimes use them if foreign instructors visit our school, who appreciate following the traditions in your American way. Out of respect for those instructors we adopt their way of doing things.

 In general however, Dutch people don't like anybody else to consider themselves on a higher level, speaking down to us. Especially when you're talking about highly qualified individuals (like most of the people training in our school), they like to be approached from the same level. If you know what you're talking about, the respect will follow soon. 
 Respect is something you earn, not assume.

 Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the assumption of respect on forehand, earning it afterwards is not good, it just doesn't work in the Netherlands. Here people get suspicious when someone assumes respect by placing himself on a higher level. Then you gotta proof yourself twice (but only to the ones that have not run away because they didn't like the situation to start with). Once to take away the suspicion and again to earn respect.

 As well as Mr. Parker did not want us to deny differences between peoples body mechanics, I don't believe he would have wanted us to deny cultural differences.

 Regards,
 Marcel


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## John Bishop

Your right in that I don't know your culture.  But if I may ask.  Is it this way with all authority figures?  Do you call your school teachers, college professors, judges, polititions, fathers, grandparents, etc., by their first names?


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## nlkenpo

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Your right in that I don't know your culture. But if I may ask. Is it this way with all authority figures? Do you call your school teachers, college professors, judges, polititions, fathers, grandparents, etc., by their first names?


 In fact we do sometimes. Although working with children is a different chapter of course, I know theres a lot of schools where the children call their teachers by first name. 


 Myself Im still a University student (part time) and we call almost all of our professors by first name (except the very old ones ;-) ). 


      With parents its different. It needs a little explanation on Dutch language. 


 In the Dutch language theres 2 words for You, just like in French, German and probably more languages. One is Jij which is used when speaking to someone of the same level, the other is U to express respect. 


 The use of U to parents and grandparents is considered to be very old fashioned. At least I did never use that. Not many people call their parent by name, most use Pa and Ma. 


 The use of U towards a judge might be a good idea, because that particular person is actually on a different level than yourself, since he or she is going to decide on your case. Same counts for politicians, although that depends on the party theyre from. The left-wingers tend a little more to first names, while the right-wingers dont.

 In fact Im gonna have to stop now since Ive got a court-hearing this afternoon, and I dont think an experiment using the fist name of the judge will be in the interest of my client ;-) 


    Regards,
Marcel


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## Doc

vincefuess said:
			
		

> At the time SGM Parker was "assembling" these various aspects of the art, it was important to him give the training sort of a collegiate atmosphere.  This served the purpose of seperating AK from the traditional oriental (as it was called then) martial arts in it's methods, as well as add a certain degree of "scholarly class" so they wouldn't be perceived as a bunch of ***-kicking ruffians.
> 
> Around this same time, wearing the school patch on the breast of a smart looking sport coat was also the chic, lending a certain air of "fraternity" or "exclusive club" effect.  Look at the old pics from the late 60s- anybody who was anybody wore these suits and ties with the "crest-breast" thing.
> 
> It was all part of elevating *** kicking to a scholarly and dignified level.


Aw man now you've told where I got it from. I mean it is the direction Parker was going in, wasn't it?


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## Seabrook

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Everytime someone decides to change some things around, or not follow the traditions established by the founder of their art, they get farther and farther away from what made their art and their founder special in the first place.
> If he were alive today, who here would tell him "I've decided to teach your system ( Ed Parker's American Kenpo), without the traditions you established?


The colour of the uniform has no impact on your skill level, so I am with Marcel on this one. Same thing with where the belt knot goes....

Just my opinion.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Kenpodoc

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Everytime someone decides to change some things around, or not follow the traditions established by the founder of their art, they get farther and farther away from what made their art and their founder special in the first place.
> If he were alive today, who here would tell him "I've decided to teach your system ( Ed Parker's American Kenpo), without the traditions you established?


I would if I changed  a tradition.  It's always dangerous to mix up the traditions which are core to a culture and those that just fit the historical cultural context.  the Taliban tried to enforce a set of rules that they felt were essential to Islam. Others would say that they were enforcing old cultural and historical traditions which were in no way essential to Islam.  Judaism, Christianity and every other religion I've encountered has had internal conflict about cultural issues related to time, local culture and individuals.

I'm not at all convinced that uniforms, patches, titles and belt Knots have anything to do with the essence of Mr. Parker's Kenpo, they are just the cultural trappings.  American Kenpo looks like americanKenpo whether the participants are wearing Gis, suit and tie, speedos or Darth Vader costumes.(It would be amusing to have a group of star wars geeks in costume and middle earth geeks in costume run a technique line.  ).

I didn't know Mr. Parker so I can't honestly say how he would have responded to changes.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Kenpo-Sloth

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> I'm not at all convinced that uniforms, patches, titles and belt Knots have anything to do with the essence of Mr. Parker's Kenpo, they are just the cultural trappings.


 Hello Sir, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  I am only a novice (orange belt), but I think everything in American Kenpo means something, so I personally try to humble myself and follow the traditions and formalities, at least until I understand (which may never happen 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) the lessons being taught.

  Just a novice student's point of view.


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## Seabrook

Kenpo-Sloth said:
			
		

> Hello Sir,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am only a novice (orange belt), but I think everything in American Kenpo means something, so I personally try to humble myself and follow the traditions and formalities, at least until I understand (which may never happen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) the lessons being taught.
> 
> Just a novice student's point of view.


Joe Rebello informed me some time ago that one of Ed Parker's kung fu teachers told him that the reason women wore their belt/sash knot on the favored position of the right was because they could give birth and masters wore their knot in the center because they had "centered their chi" and were in the "center of the universe." While this was not Ed Parker's personal belief, it was, nontheless, the reason why the shaolin temple used the belt/sash knot placement for monks/nuns. 

To put it bluntly, these shaolin traditions mean diddly-squat to me, and don't offer any reason as to why I should follow this practice. In fact, I typically prefer to work my forms and techniques with shorts and a tank-top, lol. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Kenpo-Sloth said:
			
		

> Hello Sir,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am only a novice (orange belt), but I think everything in American Kenpo means something, so I personally try to humble myself and follow the traditions and formalities, at least until I understand (which may never happen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) the lessons being taught.
> 
> Just a novice student's point of view.



Of course everything means SOMETHING.  But you need to raise your head up and open your eyes in order to see what that something is.  Always ask questions and seek to understand the frontiers between fact and tradition.


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## Kenpo-Sloth

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Joe Rebello informed me some time ago that one of Ed Parker's kung fu teachers told him that the reason women wore their belt/sash knot on the favored position of the right was because they could give birth and masters wore their knot in the center because they had "centered their chi" and were in the "center of the universe." While this was not Ed Parker's personal belief, it was, nontheless, the reason why the shaolin temple used the belt/sash knot placement for monks/nuns.


Thank you for the information :asian: 





			
				Old Fat Kepoka said:
			
		

> Of course everything means SOMETHING. But you need to raise your head up and open your eyes in order to see what that something is. Always ask questions and seek to understand the frontiers between fact and tradition.


Thank you for the advice :asian: 

I always seem to learn something on these message boards


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Kenpo-Sloth said:
			
		

> Thank you for the information :asian: Thank you for the advice :asian:
> 
> I always seem to learn something on these message boards



One more piece of advice:  It's hard to keep your head up and look around when you are on your knees kissing someone's ***.  Remember that your Kenpo Instructors are real people with real lives, real personalities, and real human faults.  Admire them, respect them, but don't don't worship them like you see people doing in the Hong Kong Fu movies.


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## Seabrook

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> One more piece of advice: It's hard to keep your head up and look around when you are on your knees kissing someone's ***. QUOTE]
> 
> Hey Alan,
> 
> I thought that comment was completely uncalled for, even though you probably meant it with the best intentions. "Kenpo-Sloth" was very humble in his approach, and as a beginner to AK, was just trying to keep an open mind.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Old Fat Kenpoka said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One more piece of advice: It's hard to keep your head up and look around when you are on your knees kissing someone's ***. QUOTE]
> 
> Hey Alan,
> 
> I thought that comment was completely uncalled for, even though you probably meant it with the best intentions. "Kenpo-Sloth" was very humble in his approach, and as a beginner to AK, was just trying to keep an open mind.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jamie, Kenopo Sloth:
> I didn't mean to imply that he was doing that.  I hope he doesn't take it that way.  My point was that he (nor anyone else) should do that.
> 
> Too many young and new martial arts students venerate their instructors.  I remember I was at a party drinking a beer.  A student saw me.  He  was shocked that I was having a beer.  Couldn't belive that a Kenpo instructor would ever do such a thing.
Click to expand...


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## Kenpo-Sloth

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> One more piece of advice: It's hard to keep your head up and look around when you are on your knees kissing someone's ***. Remember that your Kenpo Instructors are real people with real lives, real personalities, and real human faults. Admire them, respect them, but don't don't worship them like you see people doing in the Hong Kong Fu movies.





			
				Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Jamie, Kenopo Sloth:
> I didn't mean to imply that he was doing that. I hope he doesn't take it that way. My point was that he (nor anyone else) should do that.


Of course I didn't take it that way, your just making a point (in bad taste, but I don't have thin skin). 
I was trying to show you and Mr. Seabrook (my Kenpo seniors) some respect, which in my opinion is in short supply nowadays (maybe those formalities do teach something after all). Doesn't Infinite Insights make mention of the purpose for the salutation (to your instructor).
Short of respecting my seniors, I'm like every other Kenpo Student, we don't take no sh@# :moon:


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## Kenpo-Sloth

Ironically, my previous post (the only post, where I was not very respectful), 
The moderator has warned me!! :lol: 
I'll direct any questions I have to my instructors from now on.


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