# Your Fighting Tip



## Zenjael

Hey all, the goal of this post is to provide one suggestion, or belief as a tenant toward fighting/sparring/self-defense. If you agree with what the person provided, like it, but please try to give new insights so we may all grow from each other. I doubt anyone wants to read 30 posts which just say to keep one's hands up. Write what works for you, tell us why, if you care to.

*If what a person suggests can be considered erroneous, let's be respectful, discuss it, but not de-rail the thread.*

Every technique, even if from another system, has it's counter, it's time and place for use. Not every strategy works, certainly every time. By no means am I saying if you do this you will succeed forever in martial arts combat. But perhaps someone else here will offer that insight.

To start this off, here is mine;

"*Never use the same technique on the same opponent more than five times. Never repeat, or aim to the same place.*"

to explain, my fighting style emphasizes a high low approach while attempting to avoid a definite pattern. Strike, high, low, high, low, low, high. I often emphasize not to use combinations, and to always know where to hit, how, and what the effect will be. This way, you will be as surprised as the enemy where you hit, but when you do it will always be effective. Hence why one should not repeat and create a pattern- it makes one predictable.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Use

- grappling to against a striker.
- striking to against a grappler.

If your entering strategy work, always use the same entering strategy for the rest of your life (until it fail).


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## Dirty Dog

Do use combinations, since anyone who has actually fought or sparred knows that single attacks only work in movies.
Do use patterns. Teach your opponent to respond to them. And then break the pattern.
Grab strikers.
Strike grapplers.
Keep short people at a distance.
Get inside on tall people.
Don't try to end the fight by glaring at your opponent. That only works in fantasy land.


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## Cirdan

Focus and adapt
Avoid the ground in self defense


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## Zenjael

*This is mainly to Dirty Dog*

So far I'm really enjoying the points. I was hoping Dirty Dog to ask you about a number of yours. Im not trying to shoot them down, just wondering if this is what you mean.

When you say use combinations, I disagree, for the same reason as the one beneath for creating a pattern. Now if I'm deliberately creating a pattern for them to follow and be fooled, then I concur. *My confusion stems that combinations set one up to create a pattern which if interrupted, could jam the person. I like to use them for practice, to get students used to the idea of not resetting after they hit, but I'm dubious that set patterns are the way to go.*

I tend to avoid combinations, in sparring, not practice, because I believe in instinctual reaction. Say they throw the strike, eh a jab, but it could be anything. With enough repetition and practice the body should sideline the conscious thought and automatically utilize the counter, given the context. I've heard a lot of terms bandied about, I prefer it to be instinctual counter reflex, but even that doesn't do it justice. 

You can also program a person to react. Depending on the angle of the strike, you can manipulate how they will move, and set them up for the next strike. Really advanced telegraphing (im blanking on the name) sets a person up so deceptively that when they throw their strike they don't even realize it's the one their opponent wanted them to throw, as far back as several exchanges. Then WHAMO. I've heard this called 3rd stage telegraphing, but I don't believe that's its actual name.

I agree, and disagree with the tactic for short or tall people, but its really less a question of height and moreso who has better control of their reach. You're assuming the taller person, once the smaller has penetrated the guard is stuck. Having sparred a very tall African American wing chun practitioner, he's the LAST person I'd want to penetrate the guard. I have to spar him as though he were a 200+ grappler. Never go in center, always circle. It was very challenging, and enjoyable.

It's true that it's all context, and I can see every one of your points working, actually. Heck, I've used a couple of those strats. But if you're assuming you can stay out of the range of every short person, you're in for a surprise if they've seriously developed their fanshin. Heck, you get your fanshin distance to about two leg lengths, distance is irrelevant.

*If I may ask though, being under 120 pounds and 5'4" myself, why grab a grappler? If you can grab, couldn't you instead strike? I've always found ground risky, not because of inexperience, but because generally grapplers are so much bigger skill seems to come less into play than physical attributes do. I dislike grabbing because it can potentially tie my hands up. Ionno, I'd like my opinion to be changed on that.*

I did have a teacher too who often said the mantra, 'if they aren't knocked out from the first punch, you aren't doing enough push-ups".

Then again, he was also referring to punching to the temple. You can put someone down with one strike, but itll take decades of practice, some fortune from the heavens, and some serious force behind the blow. I say it doesnt hurt to hit with that kind of intent (one strike to negate) and then keep on going at the same pace and intensity until the threat is neutralized.

I get the feeling that how you fight is very, very coy.

To the person who recommended striking a grappler, and vice versa. That's a real smart idea, I think. I'm going to have us give it a whirl today with our aikido member.


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## Buka

Keep your hands up.


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## Gnarlie

Don't fight. Execute. Don't expect fairness and don't be fair. Act without hesitation as soon as the need to act is clear. 

Gnarlie


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## francium

Always watch the target- never look down, never look away
Never get static- there is a difference between quietly waiting and calculating, and being stuck in stasis.


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## Bill Mattocks

For sparring:

If you throw a technique, throw another.  Work in combinations, leveraging your opponent's defenses.  Always look at a thrown technique as an opportunity to get the opponent to react the way you want him to in order to throw the second or third technique in such a way as he can't react to it.

If you retreat, retreat on an angle, never straight back.  He can move forward in a straight line faster than you can retreat on a straight line.

Practice getting offline and do not fight in a linear fashion.  This is the most obvious at every karate tournament I have been to.  Underbelts run at each other in a straight line.  Get offline and your opponent may not be able to respond to your attacks that come from other angles than head-on.

With experience, practice inviting the technique you want the opponent to throw, and be ready to counter it and throw your own pre-planned technique when it does.  An example; an exposed belly invites the roundhouse kick.  Receive it in a way that shows the judges you were not kicked, but intercepted the kick (so they don't give your opponent the point) and lock the leg; your opponent is now yours to do as you wish with.

Make all techniques obvious to the corner judges.  Hidden, subtle, or inside techniques do not work if the judges cannot see them.  Consider delivering a loud kiai when you strike so they know you have delivered your technique.

Watch your opponent's midsection, not his eyes.  All movement is preceded by body weight shifting, so they must telegraph their movements to you before attacking.

Keep moving.

For self-defense:

End the fight as quickly as possible, disengage if you safely can.  Every moment spent fighting raises your chances of becoming injured or killed.

Angry people respond to pain stimulation.  Drunk or drugged people respond to joint destruction.

A person who cannot walk, cannot fight.

Keep an eye on your six.  Drunken fighting idiots have friends who don't like it when you clobber their buddy.

Once you commit to fighting in self-defense, do not stop until the threat is completely ended or you can safely disengage.  Avoid fighting, but once it's on, it's on.  If you stop before they do, you lose.


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## Cyriacus

Sure.

Tip 1/1:
Incapacitate the other person, forcefully.

Seriously, why overcomplicate it. Its a fight, not a dance scene. Training is training, but a singular tip has to be simple enough to absorb right away, and use on its own merit. And just getting in, and laying in, is all you need to know in that regard, since you only get one tip. Dont try and be all footworky or strategic.

See, moving between high and low works until you go low, and get punched in the head for trying to be all method using and stuff. And if you hit something once, unless you softly nudged it, you probably have plenty of chance as of that moment to hit it again, and again.

And last i checked, when you get into a fight, you dont say "Hey, wait a sec. Are you a striker, or a grappler? I need to know so i can do the opposite, dude."
This is one tip. Not training.


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## WC_lun

No offense to anyone, but i see a lot of advice good for sparring or tournament fighting, that is bad advice for actual fighting.  For instance, in the OP, "_Never use the same technique on the same opponent more than five times. Never repeat, or aim to the same place."  _Fine advice for sport or playing a game.  Not so much for a real fight.  If you are in a fight and it last long enough to use the same technique five times, you haven't done your job.  In a real fight you strike or grapple to an open target.  If an attacker can't protect something, you attack it, regarldless if the same spot or not.  Your job is to end the fight, not dance or get style points.

My advice for fighters is simple, but takes a lot of practice to do it consistantly.  At the first contact, you put your opponent in recovery mode then do not let him recover.  Otherwise you aren't doing something correctly.

Sometimes the best advice is really simple.  Buka's advice of "keep your hands up," is the best, in my opinion.


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## mook jong man

Know your exact range , have patience and don't launch your attack until the target is within that range.

Once the decision is made go through them like a laser beam.

If there is heavy resistance when trying to penetrate the opponents guard , commence attacking with arms and legs simultaneously.


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## lklawson

Movement is movement.  A person moves forward into an attack either for grappling, with empty hands, or with a weapon.  First, learn how the human body moves and then adapt and adjust the the timing and distances (tempo and measure) for the type of weapon (or none) being employed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## bluewaveschool

Buka said:


> Keep your hands up.


Beat me to it.


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## Zenjael

WC_lun said:


> No offense to anyone, but i see a lot of advice good for sparring or tournament fighting, that is bad advice for actual fighting.  For instance, in the OP, "_Never use the same technique on the same opponent more than five times. Never repeat, or aim to the same place."  _Fine advice for sport or playing a game.  Not so much for a real fight.  If you are in a fight and it last long enough to use the same technique five times, you haven't done your job.  In a real fight you strike or grapple to an open target.  If an attacker can't protect something, you attack it, regarldless if the same spot or not.  Your job is to end the fight, not dance or get style points.
> 
> My advice for fighters is simple, but takes a lot of practice to do it consistantly.  At the first contact, you put your opponent in recovery mode then do not let him recover.  Otherwise you aren't doing something correctly.
> 
> Sometimes the best advice is really simple.  Buka's advice of "keep your hands up," is the best, in my opinion.



That's fair game. Fighting is just sport, so if we want to look at this in terms of survival oriented 'fighting', I am in agreement, it's a different game.

Here are a few survival techniques I could use;

-Aim for inner thigh, groin, temple, sternum.
-If a punch is coming toward you, use your elbow to spike the fingers to break them.
-Kick out their knee.
-Never let them take you to the ground. If they sweep, stomp on their leg below the knee. If they try to charge and tackle, back up and stomp on them as they miss. You can also side-step and elbow to the temple. If they do get you on the ground, get up, and stomp on them as hard as possible.

The list can go on, I was just hoping to create an example which offered a format for any advice, be it sport or survival.

How about we mention one so basic we all neglect how important it is; "Breathe."


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## jks9199

Self defense is not fighting.  Fighting is not sparring.  If you don't know the difference -- the rest is meaningless.


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## Touch Of Death

Give them the Charlie Manson eyes. You have no idea how many fights I have avoided with my sick smile.  If you do end up fighting and they put up their guard, attack their guard.

Sean


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## Cyriacus

Zenjael said:


> -Aim for inner thigh, groin, temple, sternum.
> -If a punch is coming toward you, use your elbow to spike the fingers to break them.
> -Kick out their knee.
> -Never let them take you to the ground. If they sweep, stomp on their leg below the knee. If they try to charge and tackle, back up and stomp on them as they miss. You can also side-step and elbow to the temple. If they do get you on the ground, get up, and stomp on them as hard as possible.



Aim? Have you ever aimed for more than a general area in a fight?

Using the elbow to break the fingers only works if you see the punch coming fast enough to bring the arm up at the correct angle faster than the punch can reach you. The action is sound, but expecting it to break fingers isnt.

Kicking out a knee only works if they stand still and dont punch you in the face while you stand there and kick them in the knee. It works at the end of a combination to set it up, or after theyre already hurt. Or if it is not a committed attack.

If they sweep, stomp on their leg?
Sorry, what? You realise sweeps are done chest to chest, right?
Or is this a different type of sweep to what im thinking of?

If they try to tackle you, stomp them as they miss? Why bother, since apparently theyre headbutting the floor.
If someones trying to tackle you, they can adjust as you sidestep. Its only a small adjustment.
And how far away do you expect someone to attack you from?

If you go to the ground, get up, and stomp on them?
Again, what? You go to the ground, so you just get up? What are they doing, laying next to you and admiring the clouds? And then continuing to lay on the floor while you stomp on them?

Also, if my questioning sounds aggressive, it isnt meant to. Im aiming more for direct.


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## Bill Mattocks

Cyriacus said:


> Aim? Have you ever aimed for more than a general area in a fight?



Keep in mind who you're dealing with here.


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## Touch Of Death

Cyriacus said:


> Aim? Have you ever aimed for more than a general area in a fight?
> 
> Using the elbow to break the fingers only works if you see the punch coming fast enough to bring the arm up at the correct angle faster than the punch can reach you. The action is sound, but expecting it to break fingers isnt.
> 
> Kicking out a knee only works if they stand still and dont punch you in the face while you stand there and kick them in the knee. It works at the end of a combination to set it up, or after theyre already hurt. Or if it is not a committed attack.
> 
> If they sweep, stomp on their leg?
> Sorry, what? You realise sweeps are done chest to chest, right?
> Or is this a different type of sweep to what im thinking of?
> 
> If they try to tackle you, stomp them as they miss? Why bother, since apparently theyre headbutting the floor.
> If someones trying to tackle you, they can adjust as you sidestep. Its only a small adjustment.
> And how far away do you expect someone to attack you from?
> 
> If you go to the ground, get up, and stomp on them?
> Again, what? You go to the ground, so you just get up? What are they doing, laying next to you and admiring the clouds? And then continuing to lay on the floor while you stomp on them?
> 
> Also, if my questioning sounds aggressive, it isnt meant to. Im aiming more for direct.


Yes aim. Geez!


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## oftheherd1

Zenjael said:


> That's fair game. Fighting is just sport, so if we want to look at this in terms of survival oriented 'fighting', I am in agreement, it's a different game.
> 
> Here are a few survival techniques I could use;
> 
> -Aim for inner thigh, groin, temple, sternum.
> -If a punch is coming toward you, use your elbow to spike the fingers to break them.
> -Kick out their knee.
> -Never let them take you to the ground. If they sweep, stomp on their leg below the knee. If they try to charge and tackle, back up and stomp on them as they miss. You can also side-step and elbow to the temple. If they do get you on the ground, get up, and stomp on them as hard as possible.
> 
> The list can go on, I was just hoping to create an example which offered a format for any advice, be it sport or survival.
> 
> How about we mention one so basic we all neglect how important it is; "Breathe."



Well, first of all, as I have mentioned before, I have been in very few fights.  So that is my first and best suggestion.  Don't fight if possible.  I have generally been able to do that by talking and ensuring a possible opponent understood it was not my intention to fight if there was any way to avoid it.  We were both free to feel as good about that as we wished in our own way.

Next, never have one best good defensive move.  Learn a lot and use what is most appropriate.  I have learned a lot of techniques that I thought were not useful, until I really learned them.  

Many of the other things you mention may be appropriate and if so, do them with gusto.  Always in self defense, try to do as much damage to your opponent as possible with every move.  Some of the things may work, but seem a little too simplistic.  Stomp someone if the try a sweep?  They must be doing it wrong.  Get up from the ground and stomp?  I guess that would work if you ensure they go down as part of your recovery, and stay there.  IMHO, the elbow is one of the more under-rated weapons, but how do you spike with it?  

One suggestion I agree with a hundred percent:  breath correctly.  Not everyone believes in gi.  I do, and I believe that one of the most effective ways of developing gi is through proper breathing.  Regardless, keeping your body oxygenated is to your advantage.


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## Touch Of Death

oftheherd1 said:


> Well, first of all, as I have mentioned before, I have been in very few fights.  So that is my first and best suggestion.  Don't fight if possible.  I have generally been able to do that by talking and ensuring a possible opponent understood it was not my intention to fight if there was any way to avoid it.  We were both free to feel as good about that as we wished in our own way.
> 
> Next, never have one best good defensive move.  Learn a lot and use what is most appropriate.  I have learned a lot of techniques that I thought were not useful, until I really learned them.
> 
> Many of the other things you mention may be appropriate and if so, do them with gusto.  Always in self defense, try to do as much damage to your opponent as possible with every move.  Some of the things may work, but seem a little too simplistic.  Stomp someone if the try a sweep?  They must be doing it wrong.  Get up from the ground and stomp?  I guess that would work if you ensure they go down as part of your recovery, and stay there.  IMHO, the elbow is one of the more under-rated weapons, but how do you spike with it?
> 
> One suggestion I agree with a hundred percent:  breath correctly.  Not everyone believes in gi.  I do, and I believe that one of the most effective ways of developing gi is through proper breathing.  Regardless, keeping your body oxygenated is to your advantage.


While the hand is a small target, spiking with the elbow is easy. Simply slide your elbow to the center and touch the back of your hand to your chest as you thrust, or poke with the elbow. Body momentum helps.


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## bluewaveschool

I thought gi was something you wore.


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## Bill Mattocks

Touch Of Death said:


> While the hand is a small target, spiking with the elbow is easy. Simply slide your elbow to the center and touch the back of your hand to your chest as you thrust, or poke with the elbow. Body momentum helps.



Touch my chest with the back of my hand?  I'd like to see that.  I'm not double-jointed, so perhaps that is why I cannot touch the center of my chest with the back of my hand.  A photo or video of that would be instructive.


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## kodora81

Good read so far, especially for a relative novice like me. But maybe OP should distinguish whether we're talking about real life fighting or in-class sparring? I can say for a fact that my fighting will get a lot dirtier and more destructive if placed in a life or death situation.


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## Touch Of Death

Bill Mattocks said:


> Touch my chest with the back of my hand?  I'd like to see that.  I'm not double-jointed, so perhaps that is why I cannot touch the center of my chest with the back of my hand.  A photo or video of that would be instructive.


Do an uppurcut,, and then try it by collapsing your fore-arm back toward you. They are called, inward elbows, in some States. 
Sean


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## zDom

If you are still thinking your way through a fight instead of being in what the Japanese call "mushin no shin" (the mind without mind),

then you haven't trained enough. Fights happen too fast to think and then act.

Combinations work very, very well when they are trained well enough. Throwing single techniques is ... beginner level martial arts.

In general: attack. But don't rush in  Just wait for an opening or create the opening then commit to that attack.


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## WC_lun

Zenjael said:


> That's fair game. Fighting is just sport, so if we want to look at this in terms of survival oriented 'fighting', I am in agreement, it's a different game.
> 
> Here are a few survival techniques I could use;
> 
> -Aim for inner thigh, groin, temple, sternum.
> -If a punch is coming toward you, use your elbow to spike the fingers to break them.
> -Kick out their knee.
> -Never let them take you to the ground. If they sweep, stomp on their leg below the knee. If they try to charge and tackle, back up and stomp on them as they miss. You can also side-step and elbow to the temple. If they do get you on the ground, get up, and stomp on them as hard as possible.
> 
> The list can go on, I was just hoping to create an example which offered a format for any advice, be it sport or survival.
> 
> How about we mention one so basic we all neglect how important it is; "Breathe."



No.  These things you mention show a theoretical knowledge, not experience.  The best advice you give is to breath.  The rest has flaws, starting with looking to use specific techniques in a self defense situation.  Looking to use this technique or that technique will slow down your ability to process information and react to it within the time frame needed.  Also, some of these things you suggest take a very detailed technique, such as breaking fingers with an elbow. Kicking a knee can beeffective in the right circumstamce, but it has to be the right circumstance.  Have you ever tried to kick someone's knee, sweep them in a fight, or elbow an incoming punch?  Not as easy as it sounds and puts you in a bad position if it doesn't work.  If off just a little bit, you can be the one injured AND you will put yourself in recovery mode.  Not a desirable place to be.

In self defense, you must take what is given and deal with it.  In my opinion, it is a huge mistake to start defining what your reaction is going to be without experiencing the input that reaction must work off of.  It is like saying you will take a left hand turn in a hundred yards while driving, without ever seeing the road you are driving on.

Notice the good advice given by others is general advice.  There is a reason for that


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## jasonbrinn

Train to fight, don't fight to train.  Training is best when you are not fighting as a tool for learning.


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## Touch Of Death

WC_lun said:


> No.  These things you mention show a theoretical knowledge, not experience.  The best advice you give is to breath.  The rest has flaws, starting with looking to use specific techniques in a self defense situation.  Looking to use this technique or that technique will slow down your ability to process information and react to it within the time frame needed.  Also, some of these things you suggest take a very detailed technique, such as breaking fingers with an elbow. Kicking a knee can beeffective in the right circumstamce, but it has to be the right circumstance.  Have you ever tried to kick someone's knee, sweep them in a fight, or elbow an incoming punch?  Not as easy as it sounds and puts you in a bad position if it doesn't work.  If off just a little bit, you can be the one injured AND you will put yourself in recovery mode.  Not a desirable place to be.
> 
> In self defense, you must take what is given and deal with it.  In my opinion, it is a huge mistake to start defining what your reaction is going to be without experiencing the input that reaction must work off of.  It is like saying you will take a left hand turn in a hundred yards while driving, without ever seeing the road you are driving on.
> 
> Notice the good advice given by others is general advice.  There is a reason for that


While I wouldn't advocate anyone trying to elbow a punch, punches are great targets for back knuckles. Their entire arm is the target. 
Sean


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## Bill Mattocks

Touch Of Death said:


> Do an uppurcut,, and then try it by collapsing your fore-arm back toward you. They are called, inward elbows, in some States.
> Sean



Oh, I see.  But why?  That feels absolutely ridiculous to me.    I'd like to see an application.


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## Bill Mattocks

Touch Of Death said:


> While I wouldn't advocate anyone trying to elbow a punch, punches are great targets for back knuckles. Their entire arm is the target.
> Sean



Punches are great targets for getting out of the way of and dealing with the arm instead.  Or, if one wishes to engage the punch directly, soft-hand it.  A palm sweep or downward soft-block avoids knuckle-on-knuckle damage.  Knuckle strikes are great for the back of the incoming fist's hand, but not the fist itself, unless that's what you mean by knuckle strike.


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## Touch Of Death

Bill Mattocks said:


> Oh, I see.  But why?  That feels absolutely ridiculous to me.    I'd like to see an application.


Do a step-through with that and poke one of your Karate buddies in the chest. What, aren't you at least 200 pounds? They ain't gonna like it.


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## Touch Of Death

Bill Mattocks said:


> Punches are great targets for getting out of the way of and dealing with the arm instead.  Or, if one wishes to engage the punch directly, soft-hand it.  A palm sweep or downward soft-block avoids knuckle-on-knuckle damage.  Knuckle strikes are great for the back of the incoming fist's hand, but not the fist itself, unless that's what you mean by knuckle strike.


Bill, I'm saying that after stepping off the line of attack, and before you are positioned for a power move, you can simply knock the back of you knuckles anywhere along the punching arm. It hurts! Look up defanging. It's awesome!


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## Touch Of Death

Touch Of Death said:


> Do a step-through with that and poke one of your Karate buddies in the chest. What, aren't you at least 200 pounds? They ain't gonna like it.


Secondly, this is a batter attack to teach a small woman, than teaching her to punch.


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## Bill Mattocks

Touch Of Death said:


> Do a step-through with that and poke one of your Karate buddies in the chest. What, aren't you at least 200 pounds? They ain't gonna like it.



Need to see a demo.  That is just not making sense to me.  And yeah, try 240.  I did a shote (heel palm) strike to the chest on a new student last night, not meaning to put anything at all on it, but I dropped my weight as the palm settled onto his chest. It was actually delivered in slow motion, gently. He flew about four feet and seemed somewhat surprised when he got up.  Purely accidental, I don't go around beating up new students.

But I can't picture turning my elbows out, palms into my own chest (fingers down is the only way I can manage it) and then striking like that.  Looks like I have two gigantic bosoms, and no idea how to put that to use other than to wave 'em around.


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## lklawson

Touch Of Death said:


> Bill, I'm saying that after stepping off the line of attack, and before you are positioned for a power move, you can simply knock the back of you knuckles anywhere along the punching arm. It hurts! Look up defanging. It's awesome!


Why would anyone leave their arm sticking out for the opponent to backfist?  It is pretty standard to teach, at least in boxing (and with knives and swords) that the punch (thrust) comes back in as fast as it goes out, spending as close as is humanly possible to 0 time at the full extension.

I mean, it sounds good and all, but I've never seen anyone able to do it against anyone but a scrub.

Now, if you mean, just punching the bejeezies out of his arm as he has it up in a guard, well, yeah.  That works great.  Even with gloves.

Edit:
Or are you talking about a power-parry?  Where you "forcefully" parry the incoming attack with your knuckles instead of the forearm?  It's good but hard to do.  Small target with a small striking surface.  I know some folks who can do it, but not many.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Touch Of Death

lklawson said:


> Why would anyone leave their arm sticking out for the opponent to backfist?  It is pretty standard to teach, at least in boxing (and with knives and swords) that the punch (thrust) comes back in as fast as it goes out, spending as close as is humanly possible to 0 time at the full extension.
> 
> I mean, it sounds good and all, but I've never seen anyone able to do it against anyone but a scrub.
> 
> Now, if you mean, just punching the bejeezies out of his arm as he has it up in a guard, well, yeah.  That works great.  Even with gloves.
> 
> Edit:
> Or are you talking about a power-parry?  Where you "forcefully" parry the incoming attack with your knuckles instead of the forearm?  It's good but hard to do.  Small target with a small striking surface.  I know some folks who can do it, but not many.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Well, yeah... that's what I'm saying.  The trick is to be ready if you want to punch punches. In kenpo we called them inserts, and defanging ideas are optional after "mastering" the original tech idea. I do it all the time with people that want to play. You know, guys at work, kids, what ever. 
Sean


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## Touch Of Death

lklawson said:


> Why would anyone leave their arm sticking out for the opponent to backfist?  It is pretty standard to teach, at least in boxing (and with knives and swords) that the punch (thrust) comes back in as fast as it goes out, spending as close as is humanly possible to 0 time at the full extension.
> 
> I mean, it sounds good and all, but I've never seen anyone able to do it against anyone but a scrub.
> 
> Now, if you mean, just punching the bejeezies out of his arm as he has it up in a guard, well, yeah.  That works great.  Even with gloves.
> 
> Edit:
> Or are you talking about a power-parry?  Where you "forcefully" parry the incoming attack with your knuckles instead of the forearm?  It's good but hard to do.  Small target with a small striking surface.  I know some folks who can do it, but not many.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


They don't need to leave there arm anywhere if you were laying in wait to begin with. LOL


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Touch Of Death said:


> Bill, I'm saying that after stepping off the line of attack, and before you are positioned for a power move, you can simply knock the back of you knuckles anywhere along the punching arm. It hurts! Look up defanging. It's awesome!



I consider a downward or sideways strike with the other side of the knuckles to work better for me; or simply an open hand applied the same way.  The back of the hand is powerful, but it stops ki flow.  Going in the direction of the attacker's punch steals their ki flow.

So the punch comes in, and whether or not I am offline, I strike down (or sideways if the punch is at my head) using the palm side of my knuckles in a loose fist in a motion that both sweeps and raps them.  As the strike is delivered, it is raked from wherever it lands down the attacker's arm towards their fist.  This deflects, hits multiple nerve clusters, and essentially steals their ki.  The motion is away from the attacker, in the direction of their arm movement.  Open-handed, it is delivered like sticky hands or a 'dead hand' as if you had a bag of lead shot and you just plopped it onto their arm and followed through, or as if you were picking up a dollar bill off the ground in one smooth motion.  Aiming through their attacking arm, just continuing the motion.  Done correctly, their arm is completely useless with pain and they're wondering what the heck just happened, since it's such a seemingly innocent move.  This is a great way to say "are you sure you want to do this" to an attacker if you think you can educate them not to continue.

When needed, such a strike can be turned into a grab by simply opening the striking hand and grasping, then cupping the other hand under the attacker's arm.  Accept his movement but redirect to your obi, then he's all yours to do with as you wish, off-balance with his face leaning in towards you.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Bill Mattocks said:


> Need to see a demo.  That is just not making sense to me.  And yeah, try 240.  I did a shote (heel palm) strike to the chest on a new student last night, not meaning to put anything at all on it, but I dropped my weight as the palm settled onto his chest. It was actually delivered in slow motion, gently. He flew about four feet and seemed somewhat surprised when he got up.  Purely accidental, I don't go around beating up new students.
> 
> But I can't picture turning my elbows out, palms into my own chest (fingers down is the only way I can manage it) and then striking like that.  Looks like I have two gigantic bosoms, and no idea how to put that to use other than to wave 'em around.


Ok you are losing me here. just from where you are sitting... take the back of your hand and put it on your opposite chest muscle; now, pick up the elbow.... you will notice the weapon turns in and not out.
Sean


----------



## Bill Mattocks

lklawson said:


> I mean, it sounds good and all, but I've never seen anyone able to do it against anyone but a scrub.



I'm sure it's hard to do if the puncher is very fast with the retraction, but I seem to be able to do it in relatively basic exercises when we speed it up.  I mean, if I can block a punch, I can certainly apply a hand to the same attacking hand.  It's the same principle.  Are you saying that real punches are so fast that they can't be blocked?


----------



## Touch Of Death

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm sure it's hard to do if the puncher is very fast with the retraction, but I seem to be able to do it in relatively basic exercises when we speed it up.  I mean, if I can block a punch, I can certainly apply a hand to the same attacking hand.  It's the same principle.  Are you saying that real punches are so fast that they can't be blocked?


Real punches are pretty flippin fast, but we ain't all fighting Pacquiao.
Sean


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Touch Of Death said:


> Ok you are losing me here. just from where you are sitting... take the back of your hand and put it on your opposite chest muscle; now, pick up the elbow.... you will notice the weapon turns in and not out.
> Sean



I absolutely cannot put the back of my hand flush on my pectoral muscle without lifting the elbow at the exact same time.  And once I do that, it looks like I have two duck wings sticking out the front of me.

Are you certain you mean the back of the hand?  I simply can't do it easily and see no striking power to be gained by trying.  Do you perhaps mean the palm of the hand?  That, I can put flush against my chest with my elbow down and THEN raise my elbow.  I'm lost here. I simply cannot fathom putting the back of my hand against my chest for any reason whatsoever, let alone to strike with.  Again, can you demo it somehow?  Is there a video out there of someone doing this?  Elbow strikes I get, but not as described.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Touch Of Death said:


> Real punches are pretty flippin fast, but we ain't all fighting Pacquiao.
> Sean



That being my point.  If I can get a block up in front of a punch, I can slap or knuckle the punch; the movement and speed required are the same.  So I guess if someone is saying it's not possible to slap down a punch, they are also saying punches cannot be blocked.  Which seems somewhat not correct.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Bill Mattocks said:


> I absolutely cannot put the back of my hand flush on my pectoral muscle without lifting the elbow at the exact same time.  And once I do that, it looks like I have two duck wings sticking out the front of me.
> 
> Are you certain you mean the back of the hand?  I simply can't do it easily and see no striking power to be gained by trying.  Do you perhaps mean the palm of the hand?  That, I can put flush against my chest with my elbow down and THEN raise my elbow.  I'm lost here. I simply cannot fathom putting the back of my hand against my chest for any reason whatsoever, let alone to strike with.  Again, can you demo it somehow?  Is there a video out there of someone doing this?  Elbow strikes I get, but not as described.


The striking power comes from stepping through.  the job your arm has is to position and align. I can't do it at the same time either. LOL Imagine you are a car, and your elbow is a battering ram. You don't need a propulsion system for the battering ram if you get the car up to speed.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Bill Mattocks said:


> That being my point.  If I can get a block up in front of a punch, I can slap or knuckle the punch; the movement and speed required are the same.  So I guess if someone is saying it's not possible to slap down a punch, they are also saying punches cannot be blocked.  Which seems somewhat not correct.


Go with your gut on this one, and go against your sensibilities with the elbow. Trust me!


----------



## Touch Of Death

. Here is an example of a very badly done inward elbow. But it is sort of what I am describing.
Sean


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Touch Of Death said:


> . Here is an example of a very badly done inward elbow. But it is sort of what I am describing.
> Sean



OK, I get that.  But the back of my hand cannot touch my chest if I do that move.  Even trying makes my wrist hurt and makes me look like I'm pretending to be physically disabled.  When we deliver an elbow like that, it's either delivered like an uppercut, or the hand reaches over the shoulder, palm down, as the elbow is delivered.  If you reach over and grab your left shoulder with your right hand, that's the position (only we don't grab our own shoulder of course).  This also allows us to complete a forward elbow strike with a backward elbow strike.  Two for the price of one.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Bill Mattocks said:


> OK, I get that.  But the back of my hand cannot touch my chest if I do that move.  Even trying makes my wrist hurt and makes me look like I'm pretending to be physically disabled.  When we deliver an elbow like that, it's either delivered like an uppercut, or the hand reaches over the shoulder, palm down, as the elbow is delivered.  If you reach over and grab your left shoulder with your right hand, that's the position (only we don't grab our own shoulder of course).  This also allows us to complete a forward elbow strike with a backward elbow strike.  Two for the price of one.


If it looks retarded, then you are doing it right. LOL and from that position you can also throw a BK.
Sean


----------



## Touch Of Death

Bill Mattocks said:


> OK, I get that.  But the back of my hand cannot touch my chest if I do that move.  Even trying makes my wrist hurt and makes me look like I'm pretending to be physically disabled.  When we deliver an elbow like that, it's either delivered like an uppercut, or the hand reaches over the shoulder, palm down, as the elbow is delivered.  If you reach over and grab your left shoulder with your right hand, that's the position (only we don't grab our own shoulder of course).  This also allows us to complete a forward elbow strike with a backward elbow strike.  Two for the price of one.






This guy is better.


----------



## WC_lun

Anything that puts you in an inferior position if not landed should be seriously second guessed in use for self defense.  Techniques that administer pain only should not be relied on in a self defense situations.  They're great if your friend is being a knucklehead and you just want to give him something to think about.  Not so great versus someone really intending you harm.

Think realistically.  If you have someone striking at you seriously hard, are you going to really use the time frame given to apply a hard to use pain only technique or are you going to use a higher percentage technique that will effect the attacker's ability to continue his attack? 

Good self defense training is about stacking the deck in your favor as much as possible.  That means doing things that give you the advantage in timing, space, structure, applied force, etc.  and not giving up that advantage.  This does not apply to anyone in particular, but I see a lot of so called self defense that trades the advantage back and forth or worse, gives it away needlessly.


----------



## Touch Of Death

WC_lun said:


> Anything that puts you in an inferior position if not landed should be seriously second guessed in use for self defense.  Techniques that administer pain only should not be relied on in a self defense situations.  They're great if your friend is being a knucklehead and you just want to give him something to think about.  Not so great versus someone really intending you harm.
> 
> Think realistically.  If you have someone striking at you seriously hard, are you going to really use the time frame given to apply a hard to use pain only technique or are you going to use a higher percentage technique that will effect the attacker's ability to continue his attack?
> 
> Good self defense training is about stacking the deck in your favor as much as possible.  That means doing things that give you the advantage in timing, space, structure, applied force, etc.  and not giving up that advantage.  This does not apply to anyone in particular, but I see a lot of so called self defense that trades the advantage back and forth or worse, gives it away needlessly.


Your moves only need to make an impression to screw up his timing.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

WC_lun said:


> Anything that puts you in an inferior position if not landed should be seriously second guessed in use for self defense.  Techniques that administer pain only should not be relied on in a self defense situations.  They're great if your friend is being a knucklehead and you just want to give him something to think about.  Not so great versus someone really intending you harm.
> 
> Think realistically.  If you have someone striking at you seriously hard, are you going to really use the time frame given to apply a hard to use pain only technique or are you going to use a higher percentage technique that will effect the attacker's ability to continue his attack?
> 
> Good self defense training is about stacking the deck in your favor as much as possible.  That means doing things that give you the advantage in timing, space, structure, applied force, etc.  and not giving up that advantage.  This does not apply to anyone in particular, but I see a lot of so called self defense that trades the advantage back and forth or worse, gives it away needlessly.



You have to understand the nature of the attack.  If all attacks were the same, I would not bother with self-defense techniques, I'd shoot everyone who raised a hand to me.  I'm not saying you can always divine the intent of the person attacking but there are lots of times you might not want to, say, shatter a knee, collapse a pelvis, or crush a windpipe.  Pain techniques are great if you have a situation which calls for them.  But the person being attacked has to have some ability to determine when that is and when it is not time to use them.


----------



## Buka

If I may be allowed a second suggestion. Since we are dealing in generalization here, as opposed to specifics - What I was taught a long time ago and has always worked well for us in Karate sparring, grappling, kick boxing, boxing and especially self defense ' 

When he moves, you move.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Buka said:


> If I may be allowed a second suggestion. Since we are dealing in generalization here, as opposed to specifics - What I was taught a long time ago and has always worked well for us in Karate sparring, grappling, kick boxing, boxing and especially self defense '
> 
> When he moves, you move.


I love that song


----------



## Dirty Dog

Bill Mattocks said:


> OK, I get that.  But the back of my hand cannot touch my chest if I do that move.  Even trying makes my wrist hurt and makes me look like I'm pretending to be physically disabled.  When we deliver an elbow like that, it's either delivered like an uppercut, or the hand reaches over the shoulder, palm down, as the elbow is delivered.  If you reach over and grab your left shoulder with your right hand, that's the position (only we don't grab our own shoulder of course).  This also allows us to complete a forward elbow strike with a backward elbow strike.  Two for the price of one.



This is how we deliver an inward elbow. The closest part of the hand to my chest would be my thumb and index finger. I think if I tried to get the back of my hand to touch my chest, I'd have to dislocate something. 
For an upward elbow, the palm of the hand faces the ear on same side (right hand to right ear, for example) if it's vertical, or the back of the hand faces the opposite ear (right hand by left ear) if it's angled across.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Dirty Dog said:


> This is how we deliver an inward elbow. The closest part of the hand to my chest would be my thumb and index finger. I think if I tried to get the back of my hand to touch my chest, I'd have to dislocate something.
> For an upward elbow, the palm of the hand faces the ear on same side (right hand to right ear, for example) if it's vertical, or the back of the hand faces the opposite ear (right hand by left ear) if it's angled across.


Try bringing it up from that hip rather than swing lateraly or over the top and you will find your wrist can touch your chest just fine.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Touch Of Death said:


> Try bringing it up from that hip rather than swing lateraly or over the top and you will find your wrist can touch your chest just fine.



I do bring it from the hip, since my normal defensive posture has the elbows down. I'm still not going to touch my chest with my wrist. My hand is in the way...


----------



## Flying Crane

don't over intellectualize it, don't complicate it. Keep it simple and straight to the point.  End it, RIGHT NOW.

The more complicated you make it, the faster you will lose.


----------



## WC_lun

Bill Mattocks said:


> You have to understand the nature of the attack.  If all attacks were the same, I would not bother with self-defense techniques, I'd shoot everyone who raised a hand to me.  I'm not saying you can always divine the intent of the person attacking but there are lots of times you might not want to, say, shatter a knee, collapse a pelvis, or crush a windpipe.  Pain techniques are great if you have a situation which calls for them.  But the person being attacked has to have some ability to determine when that is and when it is not time to use them.



In no way am I advocating to permanantly injure someone when defending yourself if the circumstance does not call for it.  What I am saying, is if someone is intent on harming you, there are much more effective ways to defend yourself than relying on low percentage pain only techniques.  For example, taking an attacker's balance.  It cuts his ability to attack at the same time gives you a greater time frame to do whatever you are going to do.  There are many other options, of course.  

Keep in mind, we are now discussing real self defense against someone intent on harming you.  That decreases your options.  Why do anything that does not directly increase your options, decrease your opponent's options, or better yet, do both?  I think that must be the lens upon how we view good self defense techniques and theories.  Things that might or might not work decreases your options.  Things that have a high probabilty of working and if do not work, leave you in an easily recoverable position are superior in self defense because they do not decrease your options.  This thought process is applicable to all circumstance of self defense.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Dirty Dog said:


> I do bring it from the hip, since my normal defensive posture has the elbows down. I'm still not going to touch my chest with my wrist. My hand is in the way...


This may be a case of you simply not wanting to, and that is acceptable, but if you are dropping the ball joint out of socket for a thrust, it is not only possible to do, it would be hard to do what you are describing. Different paths give different results, and you are simply not on the same path as I. That's cool


----------



## Touch Of Death

At any rate, my way is faster. LOL
Sean


----------



## Dirty Dog

Touch Of Death said:


> At any rate, my way is faster. LOL
> Sean



No it's not. Mine is.
And if that doesn't work, I've been working on my glare. Nothing beats the Dim Mak Death Gaze. I hear it's the Worlds Most Effective Defense Against Armed Robbers.

I suspect our techniques are not all that different, and that the difference is more about terminology than anything else.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Dirty Dog said:


> No it's not. Mine is.
> And if that doesn't work, I've been working on my glare. Nothing beats the Dim Mak Death Gaze. I hear it's the Worlds Most Effective Defense Against Armed Robbers.
> 
> I suspect our techniques are not all that different, and that the difference is more about terminology than anything else.


Probably.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

WC_lun said:


> In no way am I advocating to permanantly injure someone when defending yourself if the circumstance does not call for it.  What I am saying, is if someone is intent on harming you, there are much more effective ways to defend yourself than relying on low percentage pain only techniques.  For example, taking an attacker's balance.  It cuts his ability to attack at the same time gives you a greater time frame to do whatever you are going to do.  There are many other options, of course.
> 
> Keep in mind, we are now discussing real self defense against someone intent on harming you.  That decreases your options.  Why do anything that does not directly increase your options, decrease your opponent's options, or better yet, do both?  I think that must be the lens upon how we view good self defense techniques and theories.  Things that might or might not work decreases your options.  Things that have a high probabilty of working and if do not work, leave you in an easily recoverable position are superior in self defense because they do not decrease your options.  This thought process is applicable to all circumstance of self defense.



What makes you think that a pain technique does not also unbalance your opponent?  

As we say, "A person's unbalance is the same as a weight," and it's a great thing to work with.  But causing an attacker to overextend an arm by raking a set of knuckles across his arm in a downward or sideways motion also unbalances him.  Turning a punch unbalances him - and gives you access to his back and side, where the nice pivot points (balance points) are.  Even an Ichi Knuckle rubbed down the inside of the ribcage causes the opponent to unbalance himself; if you wish to perform a dump at that point, it's not a problem.

I absolutely agree about unbalancing your opponent.  But I don't think it's exclusive of applying a pain technique.


----------



## Zenjael

The thread exploded while I was away, so I will try to separate my responses by each person. If I have not addressed a point you brought up, assume I have agreed with it wholeheartedly, or if my following words are in conflict with your words, let me know.

To Cyriacus; I aim to within the precision of the period punctuation as a symbol on your keyboard. And if I miss, I follow the adage of repeat 1,000 times. So simply put, I aim to be as accurate as possible when I can. I am not perfect, but such is our pursuit within the art. I ain not to speak with arrogance, just honesty; when I see a strike coming, say a jab, it is autonomic response to place the jut of my elbow where the weaker joints of the finger will be. I follow the adage of use their strength against them. They break their hand on me. Have I had to use it? Nah, but I have to teach those I train with of its effectiveness. Against a boxer, it's annihilating to their jabs and crosses, which oft is all they have.

You are thinking of a different sweep, but I think others can cover that. There are a myriad of ways to sweep, I'm thinking of leg to leg contact to break one's contact with the ground. Uproot the tree, so to speak.

Many when grappling, seek to extend the encounter on the ground so that they may gain a hold of dominance. Elbow their rib, as they try, As they throw you down, drag them with you, and crush them with your shoulder.

To Kodora; The sparring we do with our training partners is in preparation, like our drills and forms, to prepare for survival should the time ever come. Sport is not as serious as it is oft rule bound by honor and decency. Fighting on the street simply isnt. You can apply one to the other, but you have to be careful.

To Bill Mattocks; There are a number of wrist twisting exercises which enable that flexibility. It's been useful for me when spiking an advancing jab. 

To Wc_lun; There is no such thing as a perfect technique. Only the pursuit of it. There are flaws, and their vulnerability will be most exposed circumstantially. I have done those things you asked, both safely and viciously, at my trainings partner's bequest. It's how you learn, if you don't want to on the street. We walk away with bruises, but knowledge in our hearts. I believe the fool reacts, and we have many fools in the united states. Martial artists act. Too many mistake the patience of of a master as reaction, instead of action IN RESPONSE to intuitively read intentions before they occur.


----------



## WC_lun

Zenjael said:


> To Wc_lun; There is no such thing as a perfect technique. Only the pursuit of it. There are flaws, and their vulnerability will be most exposed circumstantially. I have done those things you asked, both safely and viciously, at my trainings partner's bequest. It's how you learn, if you don't want to on the street. We walk away with bruises, but knowledge in our hearts. I believe the fool reacts, and we have many fools in the united states. Martial artists act. Too many mistake the patience of of a master as reaction, instead of action IN RESPONSE to intuitively read intentions before they occur.



<sigh>  I hope your learning experience is not to painful.  Martial artist are not super human.  Mistakes, even by a martial artist, have consequences.  In a fight, those consequences result in injury.

You have not done some of those things you describe.  You have not broken bones, crippled, or seriously injured anyone with those techniques you would claim to use in a real fight. The way you talk about them make this clear.  I truly hope you never are forced to try those things.  I would not wish violence on you, but more importantly I would not wish injury on you when you realize that self defense is not a game of tag or theorycraft.  Right now you seem to approach self defense as a game where your opponent does this and you answer with that, like moves on a chess board.  That'll impress the heck out of someone who doesn't know any better.  Real fighting is quick, brutal, and dangerous as hell.  You don't have the luxary of acting like a kung fu movie zen martial master.


----------



## Dirty Dog

You know, Alex, with every post, you make it more obvious that you live in a fantasy world.
I hope that some day you get help.


----------



## Egon

Some basic stand - up sparring tips..

a) Well, cover your head, always. There are some guys that fight hands down but they are exceptions and they probably will be nailed someday.

b) Save energy. If you throw kick or a punch, make sure it hits something but the air. If you move, make sure it's with purpose. Be economic.

c) Use both hands and both legs, so as left and right fighting stance. Of course one leg, one hand, and one stance will be dominate, but you should be able to give decent performance with everything you have.

d) Look opponent in the eyes all the time. It's harder for him to be unpredictable (this is maybe questionable for someone?)

e) When you kicking also. Looking in a place you will try to kick/punch will make even most clumsy opponents to move away. Which then...look b)


Some more advanced..

a) Do combos. Every single kick or punch should be just setting up your opponent for combo. In combos, more ways and directions off attack, harder for opponent to defend. Taekwondo combo /axe kick-one two direct-roundhouse-spinning back kick/ is best example. Opponent is attacked by both hands and legs, from front, up, and side.

b) When to counter attack? When your opponent finished attack, and he is getting back in his stance. That's time for kick punch. Don't wait for him to get back in ready stance and then attack because he waits you. 

c) Don't move just up-down. Move sideways also. Moving forward is faster then moving backwards and that's why if you tend to move backwards your opponents kick's will get you. Best to do is one, eventually two step back

d) Feint. Feint much. Many ways to feint. 

e) Know your targets. Don't aim for the head. Aim for the nose, chin, or ears. Don't aim for the body, aim for the ribs, kidney, or solar plexus.

Something for not so tall people. I am 172cm and 81 kg which means I fight in category where everybody about head or two taller then me. 

- try not to be in their kicking range. And when you are make sure that you are the one who attacks.
- you have to be unpredictable, damn explosive and to know very well how to trap kicks and then counter attack. 

If someone is taller look it as you chance to have advantage. Taller people are less stable and rarely explosive as smaller people.

One more general tip for sparring, in training: it should be practice, not fight. Of course there can be hard contact, but if after two rounds you won't be able to sparr for two weeks, you are doing it wrong.


----------



## oaktree

Best fighting tip is avoid fights.  Now self defense is a different story. So the only advice I can give is do what ever it takes to make sure you get home alive.


----------



## Cyriacus

Dirty Dog said:


> You know, Alex, with every post, you make it more obvious that you live in a fantasy world.
> I hope that some day you get help.


I really cant be bothered telling Him any more.


----------



## JamesGarr

Control the fight with your footwork.  Don't let your opponent control you with his.


----------



## Cyriacus

JamesGarr said:


> Control the fight with your footwork.  Don't let your opponent control you with his.


And if they grab you with one hand and initiate going to hit you with the other, what kind of footwork are you going to use?


----------



## Touch Of Death

Cyriacus said:


> And if they grab you with one hand and initiate going to hit you with the other, what kind of footwork are you going to use?


If you can make an educated guess on the line of attack, get off it. LOL
Sean


----------



## Xue Sheng

Against a grappler use qinna
Against qinna use striking
Against striking use grappling


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Warning: Jet Intake.  Keep Hands and Feet Away.


----------



## Aiki Lee

Cyriacus said:


> And if they grab you with one hand and initiate going to hit you with the other, what kind of footwork are you going to use?



Move at an angle and attack the incoming arm. In the Takamatsu lineage there is a technique called omote gyaku tsuki that deals with this exact problem. 

A tip I have for self defense is to target the elbow as a set up. Strike it or seize it; few people consider defending their elbows. Your first movement should be used to set up your desired technique.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Cyriacus said:


> And if they grab you with one hand and initiate going to hit you with the other, what kind of footwork are you going to use?


Wrap his grabbing arm, wrap his punching arm, and ...


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

dup, deleted...


----------



## JamesGarr

Cyriacus said:


> And if they grab you with one hand and initiate going to hit you with the other, what kind of footwork are you going to use?



So you're saying if someone grabs your arm, moving your feet has somehow become useless?  I humbly disagree.

I'm not experienced enough to argue specific techniques, which is the main reason I didn't post one.  My tip was a general rule of thumb;  I feel this is the best kind of tip.  If you let someone else control where you are, you're in trouble.


----------



## Cyriacus

JamesGarr said:


> So you're saying if someone grabs your arm, moving your feet has somehow become useless?  I humbly disagree.
> 
> I'm not experienced enough to argue specific techniques, which is the main reason I didn't post one.  My tip was a general rule of thumb;  I feel this is the best kind of tip.  If you let someone else control where you are, you're in trouble.


No, im not. But notice how just about everyone followed up stepping to an angle with a physical movement? Thats the point. Footwork on its own not only requires training, but it requires the ability to follow up in many situations. This is a tip for someone on how to fight. Since the tip doesnt tell them what to do after they move around, that assumes they already know. And if they already know that, they can already to footwork.


----------



## Cyriacus

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Wrap his grabbing arm, wrap his punching arm, and ...


Yay!


----------



## JamesGarr

Cyriacus said:


> No, im not. But notice how just about everyone followed up stepping to an angle with a physical movement? Thats the point. Footwork on its own not only requires training, but it requires the ability to follow up in many situations. This is a tip for someone on how to fight. Since the tip doesnt tell them what to do after they move around, that assumes they already know. And if they already know that, they can already to footwork.



By this logic, tips of any kind are useless.  If you feel the thread is useless, why post?


----------



## Cyriacus

JamesGarr said:


> By this logic, tips of any kind are useless.  If you feel the thread is useless, why post?


Youve misinterpreted Me. Why would someone trained in how to fight need tips on fighting? I was under the impression this was aimed at the everyman.

Even if that was My intention, "If You dont have anything nice to say dont say anything" is a load of rubbish.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Let's all stay calm.


----------



## seasoned

JamesGarr said:


> Control the fight with your footwork.  Don't let your opponent control you with his.



Very valued point.



Cyriacus said:


> And if they grab you with one hand and initiate going to hit you with the other, what kind of footwork are you going to use?



Training will always dictate this in the heat of battle. I personally take the angles because my kata teaches it.



JamesGarr said:


> So you're saying if someone grabs your arm, moving your feet has somehow become useless?  I humbly disagree.
> I'm not experienced enough to argue specific techniques, which is the main reason I didn't post one.  My tip was a general rule of thumb;  I feel this is the best kind of tip.  If you let someone else control where you are, you're in trouble.



Agreed, once again the way we train will show up when we least expect it. Hopefully in a self defense situation.



Cyriacus said:


> No, im not. *But notice how just about everyone followed up stepping to an angle with a physical movement?* Thats the point. Footwork on its own not only requires training, but it requires the ability to follow up in many situations. This is a tip for someone on how to fight. Since the tip doesnt tell them what to do after they move around, that assumes they already know. And if they already know that, they can already to footwork.



There is a Chinese saying that says, when the hands move the feet move. The angles will take you out of the line of fire. 



JamesGarr said:


> By this logic, tips of any kind are useless.  If you feel the thread is useless, why post?



Everyone for the most part has a valid point which encourages dialog.  



Cyriacus said:


> Youve misinterpreted Me. Why would someone trained in how to fight need tips on fighting? I was under the impression this was aimed at the everyman.
> 
> Even if that was My intention, "If You dont have anything nice to say dont say anything" is a load of rubbish.



Back to what Bill M said, play nice................


----------



## JamesGarr

Cyriacus said:


> Youve misinterpreted Me. Why would someone trained in how to fight need tips on fighting? I was under the impression this was aimed at the everyman.
> 
> Even if that was My intention, "If You dont have anything nice to say dont say anything" is a load of rubbish.



Sorry if I misinterpreted you, but it appears you misunderstand me as well.  

I do appreciate your comments.  Perhaps I just don't comprehend them.


----------



## mook jong man

One possible response to a wrist grab and strike with the other hand is to step forward as you raise what we would call a "Tan Sau".
If it is a cross arm grab the Tan Sau as it is raised will place the grabbers arm and body in a very awkward position and will deflect an attempted straight punch to the head.
The Tan Sau as it is used in this technique serves three purposes at once , combined with the forward movement of the stance it off balances the attacker and puts  him on the defensive , it deflects any straight punch irrespective of which hand is used to grab or punch , whether it be cross arm or same side grab , and because the attackers grabbing arm is raised it opens him up to a pulverising side palm strike to the rib cage area.

If he decides to throw a round strike the striking hand can be converted to something else to cover that attack line but usually the center line strike will suffice to beat the attacker to the punch so to speak.
The key to the technique is to step forward to the attackers centerline and raise your arm straight away as soon as it is grabbed , this will disrupt your opponents ability to generate any power in his strike .


----------



## seasoned

Flying Crane said:


> don't over intellectualize it, don't complicate it. Keep it simple and straight to the point.  End it, RIGHT NOW.
> 
> The more complicated you make it, the faster you will lose.



Nice. My Sensei always said,"just step in and hit them HARD". 

60/70% of untrained people have at least one technique, "sucker punch", which is very successful. New students always learn distance early on because of all the 2 person drills. If you remember to always maintain leg distance and don't allow for the finger in your chest thing, it is a big part of not getting hit. Now, when they move, you move, to a position of superiority. Hitting while you're moving.......


----------



## Cyriacus

seasoned said:


> Training will always dictate this in the heat of battle. I personally take the angles because my kata teaches it.





> There is a Chinese saying that says, when the hands move the feet move. The angles will take you out of the line of fire.



I know!
Ive said I know.
Ive been trying to explain how that wouldnt help much as a one, singular, solitary tip for someone getting into a fight.
Imagine walking up to an everyman, and just saying "Use footwork". It would change literally nothing about what Hed go ahead and do.
Im disputing its use as a single solitary tip. Not the validity of using footwork. If I sound frustrated its because Im repeating Myself.



> Back to what Bill M said, play nice................


----------



## Cyriacus

JamesGarr said:


> Sorry if I misinterpreted you, but it appears you misunderstand me as well.
> 
> I do appreciate your comments.  Perhaps I just don't comprehend them.


Ill try again then, its all fine.
Im just disputing that as a single solitary tip to an everyday person, suggesting footwork doesnt do much.
And it cant be a trained fighter anyway, or They wouldnt really *need* tips, Theyd already know what to do.
And since Zanjael didnt specify the skillset of the individual, instead of having a seperate tip for every possible possibility, I can only assume its a tip for the everyman.

Having re-read a bit, I originally queeried how footwork would help if someone grabbed You with one hand to hit with the other. What I meant was, You step off the line of attack. Ok. Now are You going to just stand there while They make the tiny adjustment needed and keep hitting You? Without the skillset or knowledge to follow up, its useless if not harmful. I dont mean that in an offensive way, surely it makes sense. This is one tip - And You dont tell a boxer how to punch.


----------



## Xue Sheng

You know I just remembered the best fighting tip ever given to me was from my Jujutsu sensei about 40 years ago and then it was reiterated by Dr John Painter at a seminar about 20 years ago

dont fight

Well my jujutsu sensei actually said "Don't fight, run"


----------



## rickster

Xue Sheng said:


> You know I just remembered the best fighting tip ever given to me was from my Jujutsu sensei about 40 years ago and then it was reiterated by Dr John Painter at a seminar about 20 years ago
> 
> &#8220;don&#8217;t fight&#8221;
> 
> Well my jujutsu sensei actually said "Don't fight, run"



Yep......if there is no confrontation, there is no victory, nor defeat


----------



## seasoned

Pacifist.............


----------



## Xue Sheng

seasoned said:


> Pacifist.............



In the case of my Jujutsu sensei be happy he was&#8230; otherwise DAMN!!! That man was dangerous


----------



## Mz1

IMO, sparring a lot is the best fighting tip. Spar from light to hard. Hard being, going for full knock downs and look for the knockout. Only 2-6 hard rounds per week with headgear on should be fine. Fight in competitions. More hard sparring while prepping for competitions. Cardio, work techniques then spar.


----------



## oftheherd1

Himura Kenshin said:


> Move at an angle and attack the incoming arm. In the Takamatsu lineage there is a technique called omote gyaku tsuki that deals with this exact problem.
> 
> A tip I have for self defense is to target the elbow as a set up. *Strike it or seize it; few people consider defending their elbows. Your first movement should be used to set up your desired technique*.



Striking the inside as a block is good.  The opponent misses and feels pain.  Grabbing the elbow? just make sure the opponent isn't a Hapkidoist or a student of any other MA that practices defenses for grabbing the elbow.  They will hurt and damage you.


----------



## Aiki Lee

oftheherd1 said:


> Striking the inside as a block is good.  The opponent misses and feels pain.  Grabbing the elbow? just make sure the opponent isn't a Hapkidoist or a student of any other MA that practices defenses for grabbing the elbow.  They will hurt and damage you.



Right. That's why you only seize the elbow once balance has been taken.


----------



## Cyriacus

Himura Kenshin said:


> Right. That's why you only seize the elbow once balance has been taken.


Question: Could it also work if You did it whilst simultaneously hitting with the other arm?


----------



## Mz1

Can't see how trying to strike the arm of your attacker is a good technique. Arms are fast moving and should retract as soon as they snap the punch out.

Why not just punch them in the face?

I'm a counterfighter, and like to counter straight punches by slipping and countering with the same strike as theirs. Otherwise, I jab a lot with footwork. Once a good jab connects, I follow up with elbows and knees, especially if I get the clinch.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Mz1 said:


> Can't see how trying to strike the arm of your attacker is a good technique. Arms are fast moving and should retract as soon as they snap the punch out.
> 
> Why not just punch them in the face?
> 
> I'm a counterfighter, and like to counter straight punches by slipping and countering with the same strike as theirs. Otherwise, I jab a lot with footwork. Once a good jab connects, I follow up with elbows and knees, especially if I get the clinch.


Sound to me like you have never been punched in the back of you arm, just above the elbow.


----------



## Mz1

Touch Of Death said:


> Sound to me like you have never been punched in the back of you arm, just above the elbow.



I'm sure it hurts, but if you tried to punch me there as I'm trying to knock you out, chances are...I'm going to knock you out. That's the point, it's crazy trying to hit someone's arm while they're trying to punch you in the face.


----------



## oaktree

The punch to the arm is after you are off the line of attack.
Meaning after you slipped the punch, an uppercut to
The back of the elbow can cause a lot of damage and numb the arm.
Also punching the radial and ulna areas or around there can
Be painful and numb the arm. These attacks in one way or
Another are found in different arts and carried out
Using different methods.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Punching a fast moving target like the arm sounds unreliable at best. I'm assuming you mean punching the extended arm of the attacker. I'm sure it looks and sounds cool in a drill, but I have my doubts about pulling it off consistently against a real attacker.


----------



## oaktree

You don't have to use it. I know how to utilize it.
A lot of systems teach hitting there, you find it
Unrealistic, I find it realistic that people have done it.


----------



## Jaeimseu

People have done lots of things that I wouldn't recommend. People have jumped from airplanes and survived when their chute failed. People have been struck by lightning. 

If you are confident that you can accurately land the technique an acceptable percentage of the time, more power to you. I simply think there are better, more reliable targets to hit.


----------



## KydeX

In my style, we also use striking the arm as a defensive technique. It doesn't mean that this is the only method,it's just an extra method. We also counterpunch in the face if it is necessary and the opportunity is there.

I say different situations calls for different measures.

In my style we don't focus on specific techniques, although we have lots of them. We focus on seeing the openings or opportunities that arises during the fight. A punch to the arm could be to make an opening for another technique, like an elbow lock for instance. Or whatever else suits the current situation.

No specific technique will work in any situation. That's why you need to train on different scenarios until your subconscience is performing the techniques automatically.

I repeat: there is no set defense for a set situation. There are many.


----------



## oaktree

Thats fine jaeimseu. Your experience and training
 Will vary from others.


----------



## Kframe

Oaktree, when i slip a punch, or any of my WB/mma friends do i, we rarely move enough to the side to actualy facilitate a strike there. We are tuaght to use as little movement as possible to effect the slip. Some WB/mma use only a motion of the head, while i and others use the motion of the hips and shoulders to slip.  Rarely do i slip that far out. In all the hard sparring i have done, i have never ever seen anyone slip like that, or have had the opportunity for a nerve strike or any other strike on the arm. 

Im not saying it cant work, and that it should not be trained, its just the practitioner needs to realize its a low percentage manuver that they should save for those RARE instances it will be needed.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Mz1 said:


> IMO, sparring a lot is the best fighting tip. Spar from light to hard. Hard being, going for full knock downs and look for the knockout. Only 2-6 hard rounds per week with headgear on should be fine. Fight in competitions. More hard sparring while prepping for competitions. Cardio, work techniques then spar.


2-6 hard rounds a week? knocking each other out up to 6 times a week? Are you expecting to live past 30 without sever brain damage? Also, not sure if this is true in mma, but my kickboxing friends NEVER do 'hard sparring' right before a competition...why risk hurting yourself when you're about to have a serious fight?


----------



## jks9199

Kframe said:


> Oaktree, when i slip a punch, or any of my WB/mma friends do i, we rarely move enough to the side to actualy facilitate a strike there. We are tuaght to use as little movement as possible to effect the slip. Some WB/mma use only a motion of the head, while i and others use the motion of the hips and shoulders to slip.  Rarely do i slip that far out. In all the hard sparring i have done, i have never ever seen anyone slip like that, or have had the opportunity for a nerve strike or any other strike on the arm.
> 
> Im not saying it cant work, and that it should not be trained, its just the practitioner needs to realize its a low percentage manuver that they should save for those RARE instances it will be needed.



Something to think about...  How are your tactics shaped by the rule set and sporting environment?  Would they change with wider range of targets, for example, from boxing?  No gloves at all?  A different fighting surface, like uneven ground?  You might look around; someone (lklawson, I think) posted a link to an excellent article tracing the change in boxing stance as the rules changed...


----------



## oaktree

Hi kframe your slips differ then mine then.
 When I slip, I am angling off the line.
My goal as a baguazhang person is to get around you
And use angles and not direct attack on the line.
You find the strike to the Arm low percentage I find
It as another tool in my tool box.I am glad to know I have the options
To use it and knowing how to as well.
No right or wrong really differs in styles and experience.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

jks9199 said:


> Something to think about...  How are your tactics shaped by the rule set and sporting environment?  Would they change with wider range of targets, for example, from boxing?  No gloves at all?  A different fighting surface, like uneven ground?  You might look around; someone (lklawson, I think) posted a link to an excellent article tracing the change in boxing stance as the rules changed...


Is this the article you were referring to? http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/stance/boxingstance.html
from the thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...-of-Boxing-Stances-Through-History?highlight=?
if so, very interesting, really shows the difference between different styles, even if its technically called the same style, just in a different situation.


----------



## oftheherd1

Mz1 said:


> I'm sure it hurts, but if you tried to punch me there as I'm trying to knock you out, chances are...I'm going to knock you out. That's the point, it's crazy trying to hit someone's arm while they're trying to punch you in the face.



If I'm going to hit the outside or your attacking arm, I will have moved off line to do so, you will not be able to strike me with the other arm.  If I am going to hit the inside of your attacking arm, then you are correct that I must account for your other arm; a cross movement of arms, up and out to the attacking arm, down and out or again, up and out, should prevent your free arm/fist from touching me.



Mz1 said:


> Can't see how trying to strike the arm of your attacker is a good technique. Arms are fast moving and should retract as soon as they snap the punch out.
> 
> Why not just punch them in the face?
> 
> I'm a counterfighter, and like to counter straight punches by slipping and countering with the same strike as theirs. Otherwise, I jab a lot with footwork. Once a good jab connects, I follow up with elbows and knees, especially if I get the clinch.



I can't speak for other arts, but in Hapkido, you must be accurate and fast for many techniques that would otherwise put you in greater danger.



Touch Of Death said:


> Sound to me like you have never been punched in the back of you arm, just above the elbow.



About 3 inches above the elbow, nerves that can also be used to force an opponent to the ground with a bar.  But they can be struck with the fist, sudo, or knife hand.



Jaeimseu said:


> Punching a fast moving target like the arm sounds unreliable at best. I'm assuming you mean punching the extended arm of the attacker. I'm sure it looks and sounds cool in a drill, but I have my doubts about pulling it off consistently against a real attacker.



As I said above, speed and accuracy are needed.  But you are correct that you cannot do it; because you have never practiced that block, therefore buying in to its having its uses.  Of course, you should not assume that every punch will be countered with that technique.

I see your location listed as Seoul.  You might wish to seek out a Hapkido dojang, tell them why you are there, and ask them to demonstrate that technique against you.  Tell us how it works out.


----------



## jks9199

kempodisciple said:


> Is this the article you were referring to? http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/stance/boxingstance.html
> from the thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...-of-Boxing-Stances-Through-History?highlight=?
> if so, very interesting, really shows the difference between different styles, even if its technically called the same style, just in a different situation.


Yep


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Cyriacus said:


> And if they grab you with one hand and initiate going to hit you with the other, what kind of footwork are you going to use?


thats when you use someone elses tip  and when you memorize all the tips on this forum, you'll magically become the perfect fighter


----------



## Jaeimseu

oftheherd1 said:


> If I'm going to hit the outside or your attacking arm, I will have moved off line to do so, you will not be able to strike me with the other arm.  If I am going to hit the inside of your attacking arm, then you are correct that I must account for your other arm; a cross movement of arms, up and out to the attacking arm, down and out or again, up and out, should prevent your free arm/fist from touching me.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't speak for other arts, but in Hapkido, you must be accurate and fast for many techniques that would otherwise put you in greater danger.
> 
> 
> 
> About 3 inches above the elbow, nerves that can also be used to force an opponent to the ground with a bar.  But they can be struck with the fist, sudo, or knife hand.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said above, speed and accuracy are needed.  But you are correct that you cannot do it; because you have never practiced that block, therefore buying in to its having its uses.  Of course, you should not assume that every punch will be countered with that technique.
> 
> I see your location listed as Seoul.  You might wish to seek out a Hapkido dojang, tell them why you are there, and ask them to demonstrate that technique against you.  Tell us how it works out.



Yes, I'm sure that I'm going to walk into a dojang and challenge them to make something work against me. 

Look, I merely expressed my opinion that I don't think that punching a small spot on a moving target is a high percentage technique. The same thing could be said for a lot of kicking techniques in Taekwondo. I know some guys that could probably land a 720 jump spinning hook kick against a real person, but I think I'll stick with something else. 

I don't doubt that there are people who can make almost any technique work. And I wasn't assuming that that technique was the only technique used to counter a punch. I've learned lots of techniques, including hapkido style techniques that were fun to practice, but aren't something I would necessarily rely on. Certainly, that is partly due to my own lack of focus on those techniques. Again, I was just saying what I thought. Different strokes...


----------



## Touch Of Death

Jaeimseu said:


> Yes, I'm sure that I'm going to walk into a dojang and challenge them to make something work against me.
> 
> Look, I merely expressed my opinion that I don't think that punching a small spot on a moving target is a high percentage technique. The same thing could be said for a lot of kicking techniques in Taekwondo. I know some guys that could probably land a 720 jump spinning hook kick against a real person, but I think I'll stick with something else.
> 
> I don't doubt that there are people who can make almost any technique work. And I wasn't assuming that that technique was the only technique used to counter a punch. I've learned lots of techniques, including hapkido style techniques that were fun to practice, but aren't something I would necessarily rely on. Certainly, that is partly due to my own lack of focus on those techniques. Again, I was just saying what I thought. Different strokes...


I think you are just being stubborn here. Think of the shot to the back of the arm as a check. If you are standing left foot forward and your opponent throws a big right, yes you are set up for a back-knuckle followed by a big left to the guys face, but the right hand could still be a threat, or be holding a weapon; so, its not unheard of to target the arm with your right, and his face with your left. That's all I'm sayin'


----------



## KydeX

Read my reply further back. Also, I agree that the arm is a fast moving target. However, the lower part of the arm is the part that actually moves really fast. The upper arm is far from the same speed and easier to hit.

And again: I would only go for that approach if the opportuniy presented itself. Otherwise I would use whatever other technique that was most appropriate for the situation at hand.


----------



## billc

With a knife or other blade, put the pointy end in the other guy, keep him from doing the same to you...


----------



## Dirty Dog

KydeX said:


> Read my reply further back. Also, I agree that the arm is a fast moving target. However, the lower part of the arm is the part that actually moves really fast. The upper arm is far from the same speed and easier to hit.
> 
> And again: I would only go for that approach if the opportuniy presented itself. Otherwise I would use whatever other technique that was most appropriate for the situation at hand.



I think this really falls into the "well DUH!" category. Obviously you'd be more than a little foolish to attempt an attack when the opportunity to do so has not presented itself.


----------



## Aiki Lee

Cyriacus said:


> Question: Could it also work if You did it whilst simultaneously hitting with the other arm?



Yes. At least it can the way I do it. When I hit someone, my goal is to take them off balance both physically and mentally. So after any hit I should be able to take control of the elbow, if I did my job right.


----------



## Aiki Lee

Some of you may not really understand what I was talking about when I advocated attacking the elbow. As far as I can tell those against such a tactic are replying with the idea that the arm is moving too fast to accurately strike the targeted area. There are a couple of issues here to address.

1. Observe yourself punching. Your hands and fore arms can move pretty fast and be difficult to strike reliably, but your elbow doesn't actually move very much from its resting position to its outstretched position. This small area of movement lets you reliable judge where the arm is going to be and so can strike behind the elbow into the bisceps/trisceps area fairly easily.

2. Like Oaktree said, you have to move offline to avoid being struck. Moving your hips and feet into a superior position is your defense against being struck, hit the arm once you are there is the beginning of your offensive action.

3. All of this must be done with proper timing. Speed matters much less when you have a proper understanding of timing. If you know when someone is going to hit you and with what limb, then you can attack it ectly baited for it.

4. I advocate not just attacking the arm as a counter punching method to being struck, but also as a way to seize control over someone who is "turtling" while standing. If you move and strike, instinctively the opponent believes you to be aiming at the head or ribs, but does not usually consider the elbow. When you strike the elbow, you can pin it to their body with your striking hand and render it unable to attack you. At that point you can use your strikes to "climb" up towards his head or down towards his ribs or hips depending on how he reacted to your initial set up.

It's really not that hard.


----------



## chinto

ok sparring, I am the wrong person to ask, self defense is different.  In a self defense/fight situation once its obvious you can NOT walk away or evade the situation, Go for broke! if you fight YOU may DIE!   use your footwork to evade attacks, if you have a chance to destroy any joint, take it unless you have a chance at the same time to instead cripple his ability to breath or even kill. On the street if they lay hands on you they wish to take your life! This stands as absolutely true up and until proven false by their actions! any attempt at a choke is deadly force and any restraint you may have had ever before  loose!  if there is more then one attacker, go for maximum damage to one, and yes lethal damage is a good thing. the object is survival.  

one last thing, if you are good at sparring it does not mean you are good at fighting in self defense.  they are night and day.


----------



## Mz1

kempodisciple said:


> 2-6 hard rounds a week? knocking each other out up to 6 times a week? Are you expecting to live past 30 without sever brain damage? Also, not sure if this is true in mma, but my kickboxing friends NEVER do 'hard sparring' right before a competition...why risk hurting yourself when you're about to have a serious fight?



I've been doing this for a long time now. Been in 6 MT fights and 1 MMA. Things do pick up when prepping for a fight. But normal training, we still spar hard 2-6 rounds a week. Usually 3 hard rounds. Sparring for KO's just means throwing full punches at full power, looking for the knockdown or KO. Things do heat up like in a real fight sometimes. But both sides are wearing headgear and big gloves (not the little MMA ones). Still hurts and yes, possible long term damage. But it's not easy to KO someone nor get clean shots on someone equally matched. They move, block, counter, etc.  And if I'm going against someone less experienced, I won't be trying to KO them (and they should respect this to not go crazy on me). But yes, there certainly are risks, but we accept them as competitive fighters.

It's usually more brutal in pure Boxing gyms. Those guys go hard a lot more often.


----------



## Tez3

Mz1 said:


> I've been doing this for a long time now. Been in 6 MT fights and 1 MMA. Things do pick up when prepping for a fight. But normal training, we still spar hard 2-6 rounds a week. Usually 3 hard rounds. Sparring for KO's just means throwing full punches at full power, looking for the knockdown or KO. Things do heat up like in a real fight sometimes. But both sides are wearing headgear and big gloves (not the little MMA ones). Still hurts and yes, possible long term damage. But it's not easy to KO someone nor get clean shots on someone equally matched. They move, block, counter, etc. And if I'm going against someone less experienced, I won't be trying to KO them (and they should respect this to not go crazy on me). But yes, there certainly are risks, but we accept them as competitive fighters.
> 
> It's usually more brutal in pure Boxing gyms. Those guys go hard a lot more often.



This isn't the norm in professional MMA, it may suit you but most fighters don't want to risk injury before a fight. If you are KO'd in sparring do you lie to the medics who ask if you've been KO'd in the last month? No self respecting promoter wants fighters who have been KOd in the days before, fighting on their show. I thought rules were stricter in the US?
Your statement about 'knowing the risks but accepting' smacks again of being overly macho about this. This is how you train but the majoirty of fighters don't so people shouldn't be mislead into thinking MMA is overly butch


----------



## KydeX

Dirty Dog said:


> Obviously you'd be more than a little foolish to attempt an attack when the opportunity to do so has not presented itself.



And yet a lot of people do..


----------



## Dirty Dog

Dirty Dog said:


> I think this really falls into the "well DUH!" category. Obviously you'd be more than a little foolish to attempt an attack when the opportunity to do so has not presented itself.





KydeX said:


> And yet a lot of people do..



Then I hope they're untrained. If not, their instructors have done a very poor job.


----------



## Mz1

oftheherd1 said:


> If I'm going to hit the outside or your attacking arm, I will have moved off line to do so, you will not be able to strike me with the other arm.  If I am going to hit the inside of your attacking arm, then you are correct that I must account for your other arm; a cross movement of arms, up and out to the attacking arm, down and out or again, up and out, should prevent your free arm/fist from touching me.



I'm not doubting that you can explain how this plays out in your head, but I am doubting that you can pull this off vs. someone your size, skill level and experience during hard sparring or a fight.

If trying to attack someone's arm as they're punching you works so well and just not some movie Ninja move, then full time, Martial Artists would be winning titles in Pro Boxing and Pro MMA....where they can become multi-millionaires in less than a year...drive and crash a brand new $300,000 Bently like Jon Jones who's like 23 years old....bringing glory to their style, school, etc. ...WORLDWIDE....rather than be some martial artist who makes around $10,000-30,000 a year and peddling their DVD's at seminars where less than a dozen people usually show up.

Best way to prove this is to go to a Boxing or MMA gym and ask to spar hard with someone. Go in for the free intro class and tell them you have a ton of experience and want to do some standup hard sparring. Bring all of your gear, especially headgear + mouthguard. Film it and post it on YouTube for us.



> I can't speak for other arts, but in Hapkido, you must be accurate and fast for many techniques that would otherwise put you in greater danger.



I've sparred with Hapkido guys at this one TKD/HKD school. They were red and black belts. I beat them pretty bad with my Boxing. Not saying that this means anything as they don't represent all of HKD. Not sure if they tried what you're suggesting. But I certainly wasn't allowing such as I was throwing at least 30 jabs per 3 minute rounds and pressure fighting them constantly, not allowing them to kick much at all. If it were hard sparring, I would have knocked some of them out.


----------



## Mz1

Tez3 said:


> This isn't the norm in professional MMA, it may suit you but most fighters don't want to risk injury before a fight.



Nope, this is how Pro MMA fighters train normally. With 16oz Boxing gloves, the sparring can be hard. 2-6 hard rounds a week is nothing. We wear headgear. We make sure we don't kick knees, etc. Knees are not done with the points.  There's only light sparring and cardio in the last week before a fight. 



> If you are KO'd in sparring do you lie to the medics who ask if you've been KO'd in the last month? No self respecting promoter wants fighters who have been KOd in the days before, fighting on their show. I thought rules were stricter in the US?



Sparring for KO's just means hard sparring, and yes, full swings. It's very rare that anyone gets KO'ed when equally matched. And someone much better is not going to KO a noob. They will go easier. All of last year, only one person I remember getting KO'ed during sparring, and it was during prepping for a fight and it was a girl getting KO'ed by an instructor. She threw a superman punch and he stuck out his right cross while slipping and she flew right into it. I TKO'ed 4 last year with spinning back kicks to the liver. But that's about it. When going against pros that I know can whoop me, I don't go all out with power as they will destroy me. Going medium, gets me the same treatment...still hurts though.

 I've fought in WKA and their rules stipulates no KO's recently. But if I got KO'ed during sparring a couple of weeks before, I'm not going to tell them. 



> Your statement about 'knowing the risks but accepting' smacks again of being overly macho about this. This is how you train but the majoirty of fighters don't so people shouldn't be mislead into thinking MMA is overly butch



Getting hit hard in the head is just the norm. I question whether you know what you're talking about. Boxing gyms are much worse. It's been like this since ever. MMA gyms are pretty tamed in comparison. When you're in the US and in the Washington DC area, let me know. I'll take you on a tour, starting at Lloyd Irvin's gyms where UFC champions trained by him from scratch.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Mz1 said:


> I'm not doubting that you can explain how this plays out in your head, but I am doubting that you can pull this off vs. someone your size, skill level and experience during hard sparring or a fight.
> 
> If trying to attack someone's arm as they're punching you works so well and just not some movie Ninja move, then full time, Martial Artists would be winning titles in Pro Boxing and Pro MMA....where they can become multi-millionaires in less than a year...drive and crash a brand new $300,000 Bently like Jon Jones who's like 23 years old....bringing glory to their style, school, etc. ...WORLDWIDE....rather than be some martial artist who makes around $10,000-30,000 a year and peddling their DVD's at seminars where less than a dozen people usually show up.
> 
> Best way to prove this is to go to a Boxing or MMA gym and ask to spar hard with someone. Go in for the free intro class and tell them you have a ton of experience and want to do some standup hard sparring. Bring all of your gear, especially headgear + mouthguard. Film it and post it on YouTube for us.
> 
> 
> 
> I've sparred with Hapkido guys at this one TKD/HKD school. They were red and black belts. I beat them pretty bad with my Boxing. Not saying that this means anything as they don't represent all of HKD. Not sure if they tried what you're suggesting. But I certainly wasn't allowing such as I was throwing at least 30 jabs per 3 minute rounds and pressure fighting them constantly, not allowing them to kick much at all. If it were hard sparring, I would have knocked some of them out.


Take all your gear ideas and put them aside. Bare fists on bare flesh is what this thread is all about.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> This isn't the norm in professional MMA, it may suit you but most fighters don't want to risk injury before a fight. If you are KO'd in sparring do you lie to the medics who ask if you've been KO'd in the last month? No self respecting promoter wants fighters who have been KOd in the days before, fighting on their show. I thought rules were stricter in the US?
> Your statement about 'knowing the risks but accepting' smacks again of being overly macho about this. This is how you train but the majoirty of fighters don't so people shouldn't be mislead into thinking MMA is overly butch


^^what she said XD


----------



## Zenjael

> And if they grab you with one hand and initiate going to hit you with the other, what kind of footwork are you going to use?



Seems a bit general. I'd take a step back, alternating my stance, as I reversed their technique. You'd need familiarity with a lot of different techniques, and a helluva fast reaction time, but it is doable. When that fails and I get thrown, I'm usually fast enough to grab onto them and drag them with me to the ground. I avoid grabbing. As I stepped back and reversed their hold, I'd also either redirect into a strike, or evade their strike. Not hard to tell where it'll go if they're holding onto you.

To those dubious to striking within the arms of a strike, know that it is possible given you have the reaction and speed. I've seen multiple ways to do this, as they attack, as they withdraw, as they extend, as they refold, with different iterations as well between styles. Typically if you have superiority with speed, this is a very feasible tactic. 

Jaeimsu, sometimes those are your only targets to hit, strangely enough. It's a bit like how when under siege a castle will gather the sheep and surrounding people for safety. Like a castle, oft the defense is strong, but if you get within, you'll be able to annihilate the easy prey. The funny thing about people being put on the defense is that while spending less energy than the attacker, they often pay the price more if the attacker knows what is doing. Keeping them confused, and wearing them down through attrition, will often always leave the sheep vulnerable I've found. Sometimes you use your hands, theyll get chopped up. So you keep range and use the range kicks to wear em down. I do this in sparring.


----------



## Cyriacus

Zenjael said:


> Seems a bit general. I'd take a step back, alternating my stance, as I reversed their technique. You'd need familiarity with a lot of different techniques, and a helluva fast reaction time, but it is doable.


That was my point. Footwork alone isnt enough.


----------



## Zenjael

> That was my point. Footwork alone isnt enough.



well, maybe if you're in an anime... :ultracool

But that being said, out of 129 I find your post analyzing how I posted this to be the closest (and rather spot-on) concerning this whole thread. 

Handwork, footwork alone, anything, never works in martial arts. Where the head goes, so must the body. Many have bad habits where when they punch they forget they have legs, they get too focused, and distracted by that focus. Seems crazy, but it does happen. Some get so focused and involved in trying they dont even notice when others tap out... so it can even get dangerous, these bad habits. 

But when the body, and practitioner moves as a cohesive unit, even if treating each of his natural weapons individually, one can wreak incredible havoc. I stress that people who have been at it for awhile should, if their body allows, have a speed between 4 full power punches in a second, and six. But while punching, I stress for people to also attempt to kick with efficacy. You can see how even without pulling a quick, and draining flurry, this can overwhelm. And it's all following what you say; keep it together. I like that tip, I hope you don't mind if I use it today.

It reminds me of kendo and kenjutsu. You can do the step, but without the sword or cutting technique, you can't do kendo. Same goes for each, lacking the others. You can raise a sword or stick, but if you dont step and cut through, you might as well hit them with a baseball bat.


----------



## Tez3

Mz1 said:


> Nope, this is how Pro MMA fighters train normally. With 16oz Boxing gloves, the sparring can be hard. 2-6 hard rounds a week is nothing. We wear headgear. We make sure we don't kick knees, etc. Knees are not done with the points. There's only light sparring and cardio in the last week before a fight.
> 
> 
> 
> Sparring for KO's just means hard sparring, and yes, full swings. It's very rare that anyone gets KO'ed when equally matched. And someone much better is not going to KO a noob. They will go easier. All of last year, only one person I remember getting KO'ed during sparring, and it was during prepping for a fight and it was a girl getting KO'ed by an instructor. She threw a superman punch and he stuck out his right cross while slipping and she flew right into it. I TKO'ed 4 last year with spinning back kicks to the liver. But that's about it. When going against pros that I know can whoop me, I don't go all out with power as they will destroy me. Going medium, gets me the same treatment...still hurts though.
> 
> I've fought in WKA and their rules stipulates no KO's recently. But if I got KO'ed during sparring a couple of weeks before, I'm not going to tell them.
> 
> 
> 
> Getting hit hard in the head is just the norm. I question whether you know what you're talking about. Boxing gyms are much worse. It's been like this since ever. MMA gyms are pretty tamed in comparison. When you're in the US and in the Washington DC area, let me know. I'll take you on a tour, starting at Lloyd Irvin's gyms where UFC champions trained by him from scratch.




I'm sure you train as you say you do but don't assume that what you do is the norm in the MMA world. I'm not going to argue with you but after nearly 13 years of coaching, cornering, reffing and judging professional MMA I may know just a bit more than you. In 20 years of total martial arts I've also had more kick boxing fights and even MMA fights than you. I've grown up with professional boxing as well as my father was both a pro boxer and a trainer. I teach and coach MMA, how many fighters had you trained? I'm sure you are good at what you do and that it works for you but you are assuming you know how the pros train. You don't need to put others down all the time to make your point.

The medical questions about KOs are there for a purpose, if you want to put your health and safety at risk then you are a fool.


----------



## Cyriacus

Zenjael said:


> well, maybe if you're in an anime... :ultracool
> 
> But that being said, out of 129 I find your post analyzing how I posted this to be the closest (and rather spot-on) concerning this whole thread.
> 
> Handwork, footwork alone, anything, never works in martial arts. Where the head goes, so must the body. Many have bad habits where when they punch they forget they have legs, they get too focused, and distracted by that focus. Seems crazy, but it does happen. Some get so focused and involved in trying they dont even notice when others tap out... so it can even get dangerous, these bad habits.
> 
> But when the body, and practitioner moves as a cohesive unit, even if treating each of his natural weapons individually, one can wreak incredible havoc. I stress that people who have been at it for awhile should, if their body allows, have a speed between 4 full power punches in a second, and six. But while punching, I stress for people to also attempt to kick with efficacy. You can see how even without pulling a quick, and draining flurry, this can overwhelm. And it's all following what you say; keep it together. I like that tip, I hope you don't mind if I use it today.
> 
> It reminds me of kendo and kenjutsu. You can do the step, but without the sword or cutting technique, you can't do kendo. Same goes for each, lacking the others. You can raise a sword or stick, but if you dont step and cut through, you might as well hit them with a baseball bat.



Im inclined to agree


----------



## Mz1

Touch Of Death said:


> Take all your gear ideas and put them aside. Bare fists on bare flesh is what this thread is all about.



Sounds kinky. but the gear is what may save the guy with the secret Ninja move from ending up in the hospital for a long time should he goes to an MMA or Boxing gym to try that.


----------



## Mz1

Tez3 said:


> I'm sure you train as you say you do but don't assume that what you do is the norm in the MMA world. I'm not going to argue with you but after nearly 13 years of coaching, cornering, reffing and judging professional MMA I may know just a bit more than you.



Maybe you do small time events in small towns in the sticks. I trained at Lloyd Irvin's gym and this is how his training programs are. And he's had 2 UFC champions, 1 WEC and a bunch more UFC contenders. Then I also boxed at Sugar Ray's where there quite a few Pro Boxers there, including Sugar Ray Leonard himself...and this is how they spar there and at most other Boxing gyms with fighters.



> In 20 years of total martial arts I've also had more kick boxing fights and even MMA fights than you.



Yea but you fight women. And you're fought as a low level amateur I bet. 

 [/QUOTE] I've grown up with professional boxing as well as my father was both a pro boxer and a trainer. I teach and coach MMA, how many fighters had you trained? I'm sure you are good at what you do and that it works for you but you are assuming you know how the pros train. You don't need to put others down all the time to make your point. [/QUOTE]

Hahah, wait you're complaining about me putting you down? Talk about being a hypocrite. 



> The medical questions about KOs are there for a purpose, if you want to put your health and safety at risk then you are a fool.



Uh yea, no kidding Sherlock. It's also for legal indemnification of the organizing venue. Full contact fighting in itself is always a risk to begin with. Thanks for caring.


----------



## Flying Crane

is the popcorn ready?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Flying Crane said:


> is the popcorn ready?


just made it..here you go opcorn:, and something to drink as well :cheers:


----------



## jks9199

Mz1 said:


> Sounds kinky. but the gear is what may save the guy with the secret Ninja move from ending up in the hospital for a long time should he goes to an MMA or Boxing gym to try that.


The problem is that the gloves and safety gear also change the way techniques work.  A simple example is boxing's modern peek-a-boo stance.  Makes sense with gloves that help block and protect you.  Try it without gloves, and it doesn't work nearly so well...

There are a lot of techniques that work well in sparring, but are unrealistic in a real fight.  There are techniques that work great in a formal one-step exercise of paired kata that don't work (or at least not the way they're shown) when you spar.


----------



## Kframe

Jks9199, if i may disagree a little bit sir with your assumption that some boxing tech dosent work on the street..  My friend is 68 years old, former multi golden glove winner, and a great guy. He had a "interesting" youth, including 3 full out street fights which occurred during his peak boxing years.  He is the person responsible for getting me into boxing 1 year ago.  I have asked him about this very subject, and he says that the guard does in fact work, cuase he has used it. Now i must clarify that by guard i mean his guard(similar to mine), not the peekabo.  Peekabo is only one boxing technique there are many ways to stand.  Part of the boxing guard regardless of how you place your hand is using your shoulders as part of the "block". My coach and many in my former boxing gym the shoulder nearly covers the entire jaw area when we are in full defensive mode, with our hands on our cheeks. Alot of times, we are finding that when we defend shots using one of the boxing guards the shots usually end up on our upper forearms. 

My own hard sparring using mma and with out(in my current combatives school we do our defensive class, the defender does not wear gloves) i have found the sheild defense IN CONJUNCTION with movement to be a good defense for punches. Becuase of the movement we are not taking full power shots to the hands/forearms. I find it easier to defend with out gloves then with them honestly but thats just me. Just becuase we train with gloves does not mean we dont think, it doesnt take much manipulation of some of our guards to be effective with out gloves. 

Now JKS you mentioned this "here are a lot of techniques that work well in sparring, but are unrealistic in a real fight. There are techniques that work great in a formal one-step exercise of paired kata that don't work (or at least not the way they're shown) when you spar." My question is, If the techniques only work in 1 steps and in kata but dont work in a real fight why practice them at all? Or is it one of those situations were you are practicing a large exagerated movement to learn a smaller movement that you use in a fight? Im assuming the later, but if not, why keep them??


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

I don't think what JKS was talking about was any formal guard in boxing, just that particular one, as an example of how it may not relate perfectly. And as for the gloves not mattering in defense, I personally find (not translating JKS here, this is IMHO) that it's in offense it makes a huge difference. Being able to hit with the knuckles you want, placing them much easier, is what you can't do when you have gloves on. As for defense, my guard is almost the exact same with or without gloves on, and the only differences in it are a result of easier offense, not defense. So if JKS meant any boxing guard, then I have to disagree with that.
As for your last question, it's a way to preserve a general movement that can be adapted to multiple situations. Let's take a 'phoenix fist' that may be to the jaw in an exercise or kata. Obviously, in a real fight, you would never throw this to the jaw. However, you could throw it to the neck, slightly below the jaw, or the eye, slightly above the jaw. That's why you would learn it that way..to have a basis you can adapt from.


----------



## jks9199

Kframe said:


> Jks9199, if i may disagree a little bit sir with your assumption that some boxing tech dosent work on the street..  My friend is 68 years old, former multi golden glove winner, and a great guy. He had a "interesting" youth, including 3 full out street fights which occurred during his peak boxing years.  He is the person responsible for getting me into boxing 1 year ago.  I have asked him about this very subject, and he says that the guard does in fact work, cuase he has used it. Now i must clarify that by guard i mean his guard(similar to mine), not the peekabo.  Peekabo is only one boxing technique there are many ways to stand.  Part of the boxing guard regardless of how you place your hand is using your shoulders as part of the "block". My coach and many in my former boxing gym the shoulder nearly covers the entire jaw area when we are in full defensive mode, with our hands on our cheeks. Alot of times, we are finding that when we defend shots using one of the boxing guards the shots usually end up on our upper forearms.


Please note that I gave one specific example of a boxing practice that doesn't work well on the street; I most certainly did not say that boxing has no relevance to a street fight.  But there are some dangerous habits learned in sport fighting, whether boxing, kickboxing, MMA, wrestling, fencing, or what-have-you, that you have to be aware of if your interest is to transition to real combat.  Again, looking solely at modern boxing, you have no throws, very limited targets, limited weapons, no kicking, an opponent who is close to your own size, a fairly clear and safe fighting environment, a ref whose job is to stop things if one fighter is in too much trouble...  But, at the same time, you've got guys who can HIT, and who have learned to take a hit and keep going.  Wrestlers don't have punches, no joint manipulation, etc.  Each combat sport has it's own flaws in comparison to real violence.  But that doesn't mean they can't teach you something useful in real violent situations.


> My own hard sparring using mma and with out(in my current combatives school we do our defensive class, the defender does not wear gloves) i have found the sheild defense IN CONJUNCTION with movement to be a good defense for punches. Becuase of the movement we are not taking full power shots to the hands/forearms. I find it easier to defend with out gloves then with them honestly but thats just me. Just becuase we train with gloves does not mean we dont think, it doesnt take much manipulation of some of our guards to be effective with out gloves.
> 
> Now JKS you mentioned this "here are a lot of techniques that work well in sparring, but are unrealistic in a real fight. There are techniques that work great in a formal one-step exercise of paired kata that don't work (or at least not the way they're shown) when you spar." My question is, If the techniques only work in 1 steps and in kata but dont work in a real fight why practice them at all? Or is it one of those situations were you are practicing a large exagerated movement to learn a smaller movement that you use in a fight? Im assuming the later, but if not, why keep them??



There are many reasons you see things go on like that.  Sometimes, they're teaching a principle that can be expanded on and used effectively in different ways.  Or they preserve a strategy.  Some forms or drills are simply meant to work one particular element -- and they don't (and aren't ) supposed to reflect reality.  And... sometimes, it's folks who just don't know better, or they way they practice the exercise.  Ever seen someone doing one-step sparring, but at unrealistic ranges or the attacker sticks a hand out and leaves it there for the defender to do their thing...


----------



## Cyriacus

Flying Crane said:


> is the popcorn ready?


I think We'll need refreshments in a bit.


----------



## Aiki Lee

Mz1 said:


> I'm not doubting that you can explain how this plays out in your head, but I am doubting that you can pull this off vs. someone your size, skill level and experience during hard sparring or a fight.



In a SD situation when you face a committed attacker it is quite easy to perform. Against a cagey guy it is still not as hard as you are making it out to be, but then again I wouldn't fight  cagey guy, because if I did it wouldn't be self-defense.



Mz1 said:


> If trying to attack someone's arm as they're punching you works so well and just not some movie Ninja move, then full time, Martial Artists would be winning titles in Pro Boxing and Pro MMA....where they can become multi-millionaires in less than a year...drive and crash a brand new $300,000 Bently like Jon Jones who's like 23 years old....bringing glory to their style, school, etc. ...WORLDWIDE....rather than be some martial artist who makes around $10,000-30,000 a year and peddling their DVD's at seminars where less than a dozen people usually show up.



Except with gloves it becomes harder to pull off, and the other guy is more likely to retreat in a cage or ring because he has the space to escape. It's a self-defense oriented thought, where the attacker's intent and energy is different than in a sport environment.




Mz1 said:


> Best way to prove this is to go to a Boxing or MMA gym and ask to spar hard with someone. Go in for the free intro class and tell them you have a ton of experience and want to do some standup hard sparring. Bring all of your gear, especially headgear + mouthguard. Film it and post it on YouTube for us.



Like I said before, agaist a cagier guy you would have to strike the elbow in it's resting state. It's a set up to make the opponent give you something back. You wouldn't use it as a counter strike unless it was against a committed attack where the person is not focused on his defense (a.k.a. self-defense).




Mz1 said:


> I've sparred with Hapkido guys at this one TKD/HKD school. They were red and black belts. I beat them pretty bad with my Boxing. Not saying that this means anything as they don't represent all of HKD. Not sure if they tried what you're suggesting. But I certainly wasn't allowing such as I was throwing at least 30 jabs per 3 minute rounds and pressure fighting them constantly, not allowing them to kick much at all. If it were hard sparring, I would have knocked some of them out.



Yes I'm sure you are very tough and that's awesome, but you really don't understand the concept being discussed as it is about angling, timing, and awareness of the intent of the opponent. It's about action not reaction. 

By the way, you are comming off as rather rude at times, and I don't want you to get suspended or banned. I rather like reading what you post even if I don't really agree with the content of it. I suggest toning down some of the snark. You can disagree and make your points without being insulting about it.


----------



## Mz1

jks9199 said:


> The problem is that the gloves and safety gear also change the way techniques work.  A simple example is boxing's modern peek-a-boo stance.  Makes sense with gloves that help block and protect you.  Try it without gloves, and it doesn't work nearly so well...
> 
> There are a lot of techniques that work well in sparring, but are unrealistic in a real fight.  There are techniques that work great in a formal one-step exercise of paired kata that don't work (or at least not the way they're shown) when you spar.



True, which is why they can go MMA gloves. 

Stepping to the side and trying to target someone's arm while they're punching you is just crazy. If this guy thinks he can pull it off against an relatively, equally trained Boxer or MMA, by stepping to the side to avoid the punch, why not just attack him in the temple? That's going to cause a lot more damage than hitting his arm. That is if he punches and leaves his arm extended and suspended like that.


----------



## Aiki Lee

I don't think anyone is advocating stepping to the side at a 90 degree angle. It's a forward step at a 45 degree angle that makes this possible. See, I knew you didn't understand what was being talked about.


----------



## Mz1

jks9199 said:


> Please note that I gave one specific example of a boxing practice that doesn't work well on the street; I most certainly did not say that boxing has no relevance to a street fight.  But there are some dangerous habits learned in sport fighting, whether boxing, kickboxing, MMA, wrestling, fencing, or what-have-you, that you have to be aware of if your interest is to transition to real combat.  Again, looking solely at modern boxing, you have no throws, very limited targets, limited weapons, no kicking, an opponent who is close to your own size, a fairly clear and safe fighting environment, a ref whose job is to stop things if one fighter is in too much trouble...  But, at the same time, you've got guys who can HIT, and who have learned to take a hit and keep going.  Wrestlers don't have punches, no joint manipulation, etc.  Each combat sport has it's own flaws in comparison to real violence.  But that doesn't mean they can't teach you something useful in real violent situations.



What makes Boxing extremely effective in a street fight, vs. multiple opponents, in prison, to the death or whatever is that _IN GENERAL_.....Boxing gyms' average sparring is very brutal in comparison to TMA and even MMA.  Especially Boxing gyms in the 'hood. They often spar hard and looking for the KO. I know some people here don't like this phrase, "sparring for KO's". But that's what it is when you're throwing full punches at someone. You're trying to hurt them. And that S hurts. This is what makes Boxing so effective, despite it's limitations to ground fighting, kicks, clinch, knees, elbows, etc.

Not all Boxers in a Boxing gym are fighters, but many are. While there are less fighters in MMA gyms and extremely less in TMA and Self Defense gyms. 

What's going to prepare anyone for real H2H combat on the streets? Play fighting with pretend strikes or just light contact, ONLY? Or sparring sometimes light, most times medium (40-50% power), full sparring (50-80% power) often and all out (up to 100%), sometimes?  How do you know how good you are if you don't let anyone throw full strikes at you? 

On paper, it sounds great...how all of these other deadly MA's train for everything, using all limbs, the ground, etc.  But if all you've done is hit  pads and play fighting w/o ever taking multiple strikes to the face, body, etc. as standard training....an experienced Boxer with real fights in the ring who's your size and have the same amount of time training as you do in TMA.....is PROBABLY going to destroy you in a fight. Say you spend 5 years training your punches, kicks, elbows, knees, ninja strikes, etc...on pads and only spar by tapping or up to 30% power.....while this Boxer spends 5 years just honing his hand skills + footwork and sparred hundreds of hard rounds for KO's and have been in ring fights....who's more likely going to have the REAL killer instincts? 

This is average sparring right here. And it's not even a high level Boxing gym....it's LA Boxing, which is more into fitness. But there are some real Boxers and trainers (Pro and Amateurs) here because   the membership fees are incredibly low.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

There's one thing that you said in that (along with implications in other posts)..."ninja strikes" If you care so little about what you're bashing that you call some of the strikes "ninja strikes", how can you argue for or against it? Learn a bit more about TMA's and maybe you'll discover it has more validity then you thought...go to a Kyokushin dojo at some point and tell us that it's all play fighting. Go to a judo or jujitsu dojo and tell us they only work with pads. Get a bit more information before you continue arguing your point. This post is long overdue, but felt I needed to state it.


----------



## Mz1

Himura Kenshin said:


> In a SD situation when you face a committed attacker it is quite easy to perform.



I guess vs. untrained slobs on the streets, it may work. While against trained "cagey guys" = I think you're going to get KO'ed.



> Against a cagey guy it is still not as hard as you are making it out to be, but then again I wouldn't fight  cagey guy, because if I did it wouldn't be self-defense.



Therefore, your ninja moves are only in theory. While us cagey guys tests out our techniques plenty of times at full speed and power to get good at it and to find out if it works for real or not. 



> Except with gloves it becomes harder to pull off,



Use MMA gloves then. Or you don't have to use gloves, the MMA or Boxer will though.



> and the other guy is more likely to retreat in a cage or ring because he has the space to escape.



I don't I'm going to retreat from a guy who's trying attack my arm that's swinging punches at him. I'll just take the chance and try to knock him out.



> It's a self-defense oriented thought, where the attacker's intent and energy is different than in a sport environment.



You are not the final authority on how ALL self defense situations goes down vs. that of a sport environment. Nor can you prove that they both must be different. You just read these theories somewhere and assumed that they're true. 

To me, a fight is just a fight. The more I fight over the years, the more I am calm. The more calm and loose I am, the better I usually do.



> Like I said before, agaist a cagier guy you would have to strike the elbow in it's resting state. It's a set up to make the opponent give you something back. You wouldn't use it as a counter strike unless it was against a committed attack where the person is not focused on his defense (a.k.a. self-defense).



Like I said, prove it. Just go to a Boxing or MMA gym and ask for some hard sparring and video it for us. Otherwise it's just your theory that it will work. While us "cagier guys" have used to 'ol reliable, "punch them in the face".  It's tried and proven. 



> Yes I'm sure you are very tough and that's awesome,



Thanks, but it wasn't that big a deal. Hapkido guys aren't usually known to be very good with their hands to begin with. 



> but you really don't understand the concept being discussed as it is about angling, timing, and awareness of the intent of the opponent. It's about action not reaction.


 
So fighters who fight wouldn't know anything about angling, timing and awareness, etc. but people who don't fight that theorize only, do?



> By the way, you are comming off as rather rude at times, and I don't want you to get suspended or banned. I rather like reading what you post even if I don't really agree with the content of it. I suggest toning down some of the snark. You can disagree and make your points without being insulting about it.



Where was I being insulting?


----------



## elder999

Zenjael said:


> Hey all, the goal of this post is to provide one suggestion, or belief as a tenant toward fighting/sparring/self-defense. .



_*Keep your knife sharp.

*_


----------



## frank raud

Mz1 said:


> What makes Boxing extremely effective in a street fight, vs. multiple opponents, in prison, to the death or whatever is that _IN GENERAL_.....Boxing gyms' average sparring is very brutal in comparison to TMA and even MMA.  Especially Boxing gyms in the 'hood. They often spar hard and looking for the KO. I know some people here don't like this phrase, "sparring for KO's". But that's what it is when you're throwing full punches at someone. You're trying to hurt them. And that S hurts. This is what makes Boxing so effective, despite it's limitations to ground fighting, kicks, clinch, knees, elbows, etc.








James Toney vs Randy Couture. Boxers dont always win. Oddly enough in most style vs style fights that I am aware of, the boxer does not win. Against an untrained fighter, the boxer has an obvious advantage.





   Gene Lebell vs Milo Savage.






  Another example. Boxers have  amazing punching power, but the limitations of the art to only striking can work against it.


----------



## Kframe

I dont have much time, but i want to mention some thoughts. I agree with Mz1 a little bit, as does my coach. My coach has plenty of TMA experiance, but moved on for the very thing mz1 is talking about. He wanted to apply his training in a realistic approach. Part of the problem with TMA in his opinion and mine is the sparring and theory craft.  Before i settled on where im at now, i bounced around a few tma places and the sparring was rediculous. The martialartists didnt even look like there style, sure they all did there kata well and the line drills and the air strikes well, but the moment they started trying to do there sparring they looked like poorly trained kick boxers.  Nothing from what they were doing was recognizeable.  They looked as if they never actually trained pressure into there movements, as in doing them correctly against pressure of a moving resisting opponent. My own sparring vs a tkd bb bore this out for me as well.  

The tma need to get smarter about there sparring. No more hands down on your hips stance crap, actualy use a viable fight stance. They need to focus on doing there moves correctly with increasing lvls of pressure, which from my experiance and my coaches  is absent.  Now i dont think  you should be ko sparring thats stupid, but 60-70% sparring would be amazing for any martial artist to refine there skill set, and it tests your endurance. Fighting is hard lol.  

There are a lot of viable fighting technique in the tma, but its method of training is so convoluted that it takes years to understand it. Watching the  progression of others from white to black and beyond its amazing. They learn one thing from white to black then its like ok, everything we tuaght you was wrong so now that your black learn it the correct way. WTF is that, why not just teach the fight applicable stuff right from the begining. In boxing and in mma the first things i was tuaght were how to stand and hold my hands and how to throw the most important puches ill ever know, the left and right. 

Tma need to stop burying the fight applicable stuff in complicated and convoluted training methodology and just start practicing the real moves and techniques more often then the fight dance tma styles seem to love doing and watching.

Not trying to pick on  anything, my schools combatives programs striking skill set is very heavily Epak kenpo. Just with out the kata, the line drills, and air strikes. If we want to learn a combination or practice a block or defense, coach walks us through the movements while using real attacks against us. Its amazing, i love every minute of what im doing.. It feels real..  

Again, i think the TMA have some VERY valid fighting technique in them, I just feel that they need to stop being mired in outdated and in efficent training methods.. Just train the real and correct way to fight..


----------



## Cirdan

Kframe said:


> Again, i think the TMA have some VERY valid fighting technique in them, I just feel that they need to stop being mired in outdated and in efficent training methods.. Just train the real and correct way to fight..



It works for me.


----------



## oaktree

This thread has gotten way off topic into yet another
SPORT VERUS STREET AND MMA VERSUS TMA.
 sport martial arts are designed for a sport match with RULES.
 MMA has its own approach to training and reason.
TMA has its own approach and training.
If YOU don't feel one is the right approach to you move on.
 If you disagree with a technique because in your frame of
Reference and lack of a paradigm shift then that'd fine too.
But the constant need to show how much of an alpha male you are
And the belittling of other approaches shows a lack of mental maturity.


----------



## bluewaveschool

Wow... at the end of the Gene Lebell video, he chokes a kid out and pours water on the kids crotch so the kid would think he pissed himself.


----------



## Mz1

kempodisciple said:


> There's one thing that you said in that (along with implications in other posts)..."ninja strikes" If you care so little about what you're bashing that you call some of the strikes "ninja strikes", how can you argue for or against it?



That's more in the line of friendly ribbing really. Similar to when those who thinks that Boxing and MMA techniques such as elbowing someone in the face really hard, can't possibly work in the streets and calls us "cagey guys", sports fighter, etc.



> Learn a bit more about TMA's and maybe you'll discover it has more validity then you thought...go to a Kyokushin dojo at some point and tell us that it's all play fighting. Go to a judo or jujitsu dojo and tell us they only work with pads. Get a bit more information before you continue arguing your point. This post is long overdue, but felt I needed to state it.



That's one of my hobbies actually. I like going to different gyms to spar, including TMA ones. And I've trained plenty of traditional Jujutsu. Also, your info is wrong about Judo being TMA. Judo is the sports version of Jujutsu. It's almost what MMA is today when created by Kano. It may be perceived by yourself as being traditional, only because it's been around a long time.


----------



## Mz1

frank raud said:


> James Toney vs Randy Couture. Boxers dont always win. Oddly enough in most style vs style fights that I am aware of, the boxer does not win. Against an untrained fighter, the boxer has an obvious advantage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gene Lebell vs Milo Savage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another example. Boxers have  amazing punching power, but the limitations of the art to only striking can work against it.




Can you show me where I said "Boxers always win"?  Otherwise, you just made it up.

I fight MMA and Boxing so I obviously know the weaknesses of pure a pure Boxer to never make such statement.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Mz1 said:


> That's more in the line of friendly ribbing really. Similar to when those who thinks that Boxing and MMA techniques such as elbowing someone in the face really hard, can't possibly work in the streets and calls us "cagey guys", sports fighter, etc.



 ordinarily i'd agree it's just friendly ribbing, but Mz1 is continuously using it, in more than just a 'friendly ribbing' way, he seems to really think we believe in some movie ninja striking s*** that wouldn't ever work.



> That's one of my hobbies actually. I like going to different gyms to spar, including TMA ones. And I've trained plenty of traditional Jujutsu. Also, your info is wrong about Judo being TMA. Judo is the sports version of Jujutsu. It's almost what MMA is today when created by Kano. It may be perceived by yourself as being traditional, only because it's been around a long time.


The comment about sparring TMA schools wasn't directed at you...I already have respect for you and know that you don't neglect or disrespect certain types of school for no reason. We disagree a bit, but I respect both you and your opinion. As for the Judo/jujutsu, a friend of mine takes judo and considers it a TMA so that's why I assumed it was. Sorry..but for Mz1, my statement is still the same minus the judo.


----------



## Xue Sheng

There is Olympic Judo of the 21st century and then there is the Kodokan Judo of Kano Jigoro..... and they are not exactly the same. 

And I don't think Kano looked at it as just a sport 



> Since the very beginning, I had been categorizing Judo into three parts, rentai-ho, shobu-ho, and shushin-ho. Rentai-ho refers to Judo as a physical exercise, while shobu-ho is Judo as a martial art. Shushin-ho is the cultivation of wisdom and virtue as well as the study and application of the principles of Judo in our daily lives. I therefore anticipated that practitioners would develop their bodies in an ideal manner, to be outstanding in matches, and also to improve their wisdom and virtue and make the spirit of Judo live in their daily lives. If we consider Judo first as a physical exercise, we should remember that our bodies should not be stiff, but free, quick and strong. We should be able to move properly in response to our opponent's unexpected attacks. We should also not forget to make full use of every opportunity during our practice to improve our wisdom and virtue. These are the ideal principles of my Judo.  - Kano Jigoro


----------



## Kframe

Ciridan and others, have you tested your moves in hard sparring? Have you actually tried them against fully resisting opponents? If not then how can you say they are working for you? Im not totaly bashing TMA, they have alot of well made techniques that work, my problem lies in their fascination with complicated and "dangerous" moves that cant be safely applied in any kind of training. Take that nerve strike talked about above, have any of you applied it in hard sparring with a fully resisting opponent?   That is where the tma fall short, imho is in the application of there "advanced" material, they just fail to train it in a realistic fashion.  

So how can you say its working for you if you never apply it to people fighting back??  PLease show me hard concrete examples of TMA training and its application, and how  you guys  train it for real altercations. Especially the high end manuvers such as the nerve strike mentioned above. I truely want to know what training technique tma does that  you feel adaquately prepares you to use such high lvl tech against live opponents.


----------



## Flying Crane

Kframe said:


> I dont have much time, but i want to mention some thoughts. I agree with Mz1 a little bit, as does my coach. My coach has plenty of TMA experiance, but moved on for the very thing mz1 is talking about. He wanted to apply his training in a realistic approach. Part of the problem with TMA in his opinion and mine is the sparring and theory craft. Before i settled on where im at now, i bounced around a few tma places and the sparring was rediculous. The martialartists didnt even look like there style, sure they all did there kata well and the line drills and the air strikes well, but the moment they started trying to do there sparring they looked like poorly trained kick boxers. Nothing from what they were doing was recognizeable. They looked as if they never actually trained pressure into there movements, as in doing them correctly against pressure of a moving resisting opponent. My own sparring vs a tkd bb bore this out for me as well.
> 
> The tma need to get smarter about there sparring. No more hands down on your hips stance crap, actualy use a viable fight stance. They need to focus on doing there moves correctly with increasing lvls of pressure, which from my experiance and my coaches is absent. Now i dont think you should be ko sparring thats stupid, but 60-70% sparring would be amazing for any martial artist to refine there skill set, and it tests your endurance. Fighting is hard lol.
> 
> There are a lot of viable fighting technique in the tma, but its method of training is so convoluted that it takes years to understand it. Watching the progression of others from white to black and beyond its amazing. They learn one thing from white to black then its like ok, everything we tuaght you was wrong so now that your black learn it the correct way. WTF is that, why not just teach the fight applicable stuff right from the begining. In boxing and in mma the first things i was tuaght were how to stand and hold my hands and how to throw the most important puches ill ever know, the left and right.
> 
> Tma need to stop burying the fight applicable stuff in complicated and convoluted training methodology and just start practicing the real moves and techniques more often then the fight dance tma styles seem to love doing and watching.
> 
> Not trying to pick on anything, my schools combatives programs striking skill set is very heavily Epak kenpo. Just with out the kata, the line drills, and air strikes. If we want to learn a combination or practice a block or defense, coach walks us through the movements while using real attacks against us. Its amazing, i love every minute of what im doing.. It feels real..
> 
> Again, i think the TMA have some VERY valid fighting technique in them, I just feel that they need to stop being mired in outdated and in efficent training methods.. Just train the real and correct way to fight..



I don't exactly disagree with much of what you are saying here, but it boils down to the quality of the school.  Not the quality of traditional martial arts.  Sounds to me like you've had a lot of experience with low quality schools.

I will say that many TMA schools set poor examples of how to train.  But that's because they are crappy schools giving crappy instruction.  And their clientelle allows them to get away with it, so they do, for the money.  The TMAs, when trained correctly, offer a set of very effective skills.  But you gotta find a good teacher and that ain't all that easy nowadays.


----------



## Flying Crane

Kframe said:


> Ciridan and others, have you tested your moves in hard sparring? Have you actually tried them against fully resisting opponents? If not then how can you say they are working for you? Im not totaly bashing TMA, they have alot of well made techniques that work, *my problem lies in their fascination with complicated and "dangerous" moves that cant be safely applied in any kind of training*. Take that nerve strike talked about above, have any of you applied it in hard sparring with a fully resisting opponent? That is where the tma fall short, imho is in the application of there "advanced" material, they just fail to train it in a realistic fashion.
> 
> So how can you say its working for you if you never apply it to people fighting back?? PLease show me hard concrete examples of TMA training and its application, and how you guys train it for real altercations. Especially the high end manuvers such as the nerve strike mentioned above. I truely want to know what training technique tma does that you feel adaquately prepares you to use such high lvl tech against live opponents.



I think you've hit something here, particularly with the complicated moves.  I agree, a lot of TMA include complicated solutions that look good in theory but I find very very sketchy in real life.  But that's not all TMA, and that's not all that is found in the TMA that include complicated solutions.  I think the key is in perspective.  When the rubber hits the road, it's the simple stuff that gets used and that's what works.  Simple, basic techniques done with a tremendous amount of power.  That's how I see it, and it works very well my the traditional system that I train.

So what purpose does the complicated stuff serve?  Sometimes it just gives you exercise, sometimes it's meant to help broaden your vision of what might be possible.  Some of it is downright stupid and probably would be well worth ejecting.  Sure, there's some really stupid stuff that people are doing nowadays.  But that's not the definition of TMA.  When it comes to using it for real, it's the simple stuff, the solid basics, that gives the most mileage.


----------



## Aiki Lee

[QUOTE=Mz1;1528970] I guess vs. untrained slobs on thestreets, it may work. While against trained "cagey guys" = I thinkyou're going to get KO'ed. [/QUOTE]

First, one should always assume their opponent is competent and dangerous. theminute you think someone is just an "untrained slob" he will surpriseyou with something. I've had my fair share of real fights, and they always feeldifferent from a competitive match of which I have also had a fair share of. Sowhether you want to believe me or not, I do know what I'm talking about here. BTW when I say "Cagey guys" I'm talking about a mindset seen in sport fighting (the cage), where a guy isn't commiting to attacking and is looking to react and counter the other guy.




Mz1 said:


> Therefore, your ninja moves are only in theory. While uscagey guys tests out our techniques plenty of times at full speed and power toget good at it and to find out if it works for real or not.



Do you think years of martial arts tradition comes only from theory? That noone, anywhere has ever successfully used these principles? Have you never heardof randori? Sport fighters are not the only people who test their skill undersuch conditions. I'll get to your comments about "ninja moves" at theend.





Mz1 said:


> Use MMA gloves then. Or you don't have to use gloves, theMMA or Boxer will though.



We do use fingerless gloves from time to time as well as other protectiveequipment during stress training and the idea of striking the elbow (both as acounter and as a method of taking initiative still applies). It's not magic;it's a very simple tactic. You just need repetitive training under liveconditions to do it properly.




Mz1 said:


> I don't I'm going to retreat from a guy who's trying attackmy arm that's swinging punches at him. I'll just take the chance and try toknock him out.


When I stated retreat, I didn't mean run away. I was just refering to backingup and getting more space. You take whatever chance you want; it won't matterif your opponent is doing what I'm suggesting. If he screws it up that's hisproblem, he'd fail the technique not the other way around.


Mz1 said:


> You are not the final authority on how ALL self defense situations goes downvs. that of a sport environment. Nor can you prove that they both must bedifferent. You just read these theories somewhere and assumed that they'retrue.




Just as you are assuming I've just read theories? 
Look a sport fight doesn't resemble self-defense. In sparring or sportscompetition the fighters aim to out perform one another. Hit while avoid beinghit, choke or submit while avoiding being choked or submitted. SD is about dowhat you need to end the threat. In SD when the attacker attacks his mind isonly on attacking, not on thinking about what you can do to him. Soself-defense is different from sports, all the time, everytime. That doesn'tmean you can't use the skills learned from sports MA to deal with a SDsituation, it just means you have to adapt those skills to a new environment.But they cannot be treated the same.

In a life or death fight their is little thought to defense. Ever heard thesaying "the best defense is a good offense"? That saying is truebecause in a real fight that is not about ego (i.e. proving your a big shot, ortop dog, or whatever), both combatants are aiming to attack. Defensivemanuevers simply set up the next attack. If you think of attacking you cannotdefend. If you thinking of defending you cannot attack. If for whatever reasona combatant stops attacking it is because he know longer thinks he can win. Ina real fight when that happens, someone leaves. When they don't leave it iseither sport or ego.




Mz1 said:


> To me, a fight is just a fight. The more I fight over theyears, the more I am calm. The more calm and loose I am, the better I usuallydo.



This shows you've never had your life or well being actually threatened.Fighting in sports is way different than fighting in self-defense or in a H2Hbattlefield situation. 




Mz1 said:


> Like I said, prove it. Just go to a Boxing or MMA gym andask for some hard sparring and video it for us. Otherwise it's just your theorythat it will work. While us "cagier guys" have used to 'ol reliable,"punch them in the face". It's tried and proven.



So you want me to walk into a strangers gym, beat up someone I don't know, filmit, post it, disregard everything my teacher ever taught me about the purposeof our training, all so I can win an argument with someone on the internet. Yalike that's going to happen.

BTW the "ol' reliable punch them in the face" tactic is less of agood idea without gloves (i.e. in SD) cuz you risk breaking your hand againstthe person's skull. Gloves aren't designed to protect the other guy's face;they are designed to protect your hand. Use an open had to the face if that isyour target (in SD).




Mz1 said:


> Thanks, but it wasn't that big a deal.





Mz1 said:


> Hapkido guys aren'tusually known to be very good with their hands to begin with.




Here we have an example of being insulting. More at the bottom.




Mz1 said:


> So fighters who fight wouldn't know anything about angling,timing and awareness, etc. but people who don't fight that theorize only,do?


Of course fighters have these skills, but they are developed differently andfor a different purpose than people who train in a battlefield or SD martialart. An MMA fighter's timing, angling, and awareness are developed so that heor she is better able to win the match. Other methods use different angles,timing, and ideas about awareness because there goals are surival, escape,arrest, or kill. You keep talking about people who "theorize", whatdo you think I do in the dojo anyway? 




Mz1 said:


> Where was I being insulting?



Well, the way you&#8217;ve been speaking to Tez3 just on thelast page was pretty rude. I know when I call someone an &#8220;amateur&#8221; or &#8220;Sherlock&#8221;I&#8217;m not paying them any compliments.
Then there is the Hapikdo comment in red, which justspews ignorance. If those guys you sparred with weren&#8217;t very good at your gamethat doesn&#8217;t mean jack squat about Hapkido as a whole. Lumping people in agroup like that just becomes a useless &#8220;my style is better than yours argument&#8221;.
Now personally, I&#8217;m offended at the constant use of &#8220;ninjamoves&#8221;. You use the term do mock the idea as fantastical garbage withoutactually explaining why you think it won&#8217;t work beyond &#8220;I&#8217;d just punch him inthe face&#8221;.  But here&#8217;s the ironic part,what I&#8217;m advocating IS A NINJA MOVE. The tactic I advocate can be seen by observingGyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu strategy. 
You don&#8217;t understand martial arts as well as you thinkyou do.


----------



## Mz1

Kframe said:


> I dont have much time, but i want to mention some thoughts. I agree with Mz1 a little bit, as does my coach.



You actually agree with me a lot 



> but the moment they started trying to do there sparring they looked like poorly trained kick boxers.  Nothing from what they were doing was recognizeable.



This is mainly why Karatekas created kickboxing and K-1 to skip or at least not spend to much time on the katas that are hardly ever used in a real fight. Boxers have kata, it's called shadowboxing. Difference being, they shadowbox the way they would fight.



> Now i dont think  you should be ko sparring thats stupid, but 60-70% sparring would be amazing for any martial artist to refine there skill set, and it tests your endurance. Fighting is hard lol.



Average sparring in my gym is about 60-70% power and it can knock you out and certainly does hurt. 60-70% power usually spikes to 100% pretty often once someone thinks they got hit too hard. This is pretty standard. 

Here's an excellent commentary on the validity of Self Defense training vs. MMA.


----------



## frank raud

MZ1, as you are convinced that TMA is useless and ineffective against the superior skills of boxing and MMA, and you are not far from Fairfax VA, I would suggest you get together with the guy who started this thread, Zenjael. I think it would be a reality check.


----------



## Mz1

Xue Sheng said:


> There is Olympic Judo of the 21st century and then there is the Kodokan Judo of Kano Jigoro..... and they are not exactly the same.
> 
> And I don't think Kano looked at it as just a sport



Well Kano was first, a master Jujutsuka. He's obviously not going to abandon everything spiritual concerning Jujutsu. Jujutsu wasn't just his base, but his life. He even first called his creation, Kano's Jujutsu before coming up with Judo.

But he certainly did meant for Judo to be a sport by discarding most of the small joint locks and such. Giving Judokas the opportunity to train hard and compete hard while limiting the cheap, thumb locks, wrist locks, etc. of Jujutsu that are prone to cause injuries and taking athletes out of the game. Just like Karate, Kung-Fu, Wing Chun, etc...all conduct their own tournaments for medals & trophies with rules against eye pokes, biting, and such. These are not magical techniques that no MMA fighters can't possibly train nor be good at, it's just that MMA train to fight honorably. 

So how does being a well tuned fighter with plenty of hard sparring and fighting experience not help someone should they have to fight in the street? And how can play fighting using death strikes and such be better on the streets when it's never been tried against someone who knows how to fight. Sure, it should work vs. someone street slob or drunkard, but so should punching them in the face, as trained in MMA.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

frank raud said:


> MZ1, as you are convinced that TMA is useless and ineffective against the superior skills of boxing and MMA, and you are not far from Fairfax VA, I would suggest you get together with the guy who started this thread, Zenjael. I think it would be a reality check.


hmmm i don't know if I would want Zenjael to be a representative of TMA to someone who is already skeptical about them...


----------



## Carol

kempodisciple said:


> hmmm i don't know if I would want Zenjael to be a representative of TMA to someone who is already skeptical about them...



Frank never said _who_ it would be a reality check for...


----------



## Mz1

Himura Kenshin said:


> [QUOTE=Mz1;1528970]  First, one should always assume their opponent is competent and dangerous. theminute you think someone is just an "untrained slob" he will surpriseyou with something.




Show me where I said that I'd always assume someone on the street to automatically be an untrained slob. You completely made this up.




> I've had my fair share of real fights, and they always feeldifferent from a competitive match of which I have also had a fair share of. Sowhether you want to believe me or not, I do know what I'm talking about here. BTW when I say "Cagey guys" I'm talking about a mindset seen in sport fighting (the cage), where a guy isn't commiting to attacking and is looking to react and counter the other guy.




 You obviously have not fought anyone trained nor experienced then because your last sentence just tells me that you fought these untrained slobs that I was talking about. And it's not even correct. You just described one type of fighting style, counterfighting. Not all "Cagey Guys" are counterfighters.




> Do you think years of martial arts tradition comes only from theory? That noone, anywhere has ever successfully used these principles? Have you never heardof randori? Sport fighters are not the only people who test their skill undersuch conditions. I'll get to your comments about "ninja moves" at theend.




I've only trained in BJJ (by Japanese Judokas) and Danzan Ryu Jujutsu so how could I possibly know what "randori" means.  And years of MA traditions doesn't automatically makes it effective. Some of it is for show, like a 540 degrees tornado kick or something. I'm sure it can hurt someone, but go ahead, try it in a real fight. This is the point.

I'll answer the rest later, going to to watch TV now.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Mz1 said:


> Show me where I said that I'd always assume someone on the street to automatically be an untrained slob. You completely made this up....You obviously have not fought anyone trained nor experienced then because your last sentence just tells me that you fought these untrained slobs that I was talking about....


Ok, this isn't really an argument, just something I noticed. You said he made up that you said you assume people are untrained slob, then you said that 'he fought the untrained slobs _*I was talking about*_', which suggests that you did mention street people are untrained slobs in a previous post. A bit of a contradiction there 
As for an actual answer to that, he assumed you meant that when you said the thing about untrained slobs vs. street people, just like you assumed he was accusing you of saying that in his quote. Both assumptions, and both had reason for the assumption, you implied what himura responded to, just like himura implied he was responding to what you stated.


----------



## Cyriacus

kempodisciple said:


> hmmm i don't know if I would want Zenjael to be a representative of TMA to someone who is already skeptical about them...


I think he meant a reality check for both of them


----------



## bluewaveschool

Sweep the leg!


----------



## Tez3

I think someone has forgotten or maybe never knew that MMA is made up of the traditional martial arts so if traditional martial arts don't work...............


----------



## Cirdan

Kframe said:


> Ciridan and others, have you tested your moves in hard sparring? Have you actually tried them against fully resisting opponents? If not then how can you say they are working for you? Im not totaly bashing TMA, they have alot of well made techniques that work, my problem lies in their fascination with complicated and "dangerous" moves that cant be safely applied in any kind of training. Take that nerve strike talked about above, have any of you applied it in hard sparring with a fully resisting opponent? That is where the tma fall short, imho is in the application of there "advanced" material, they just fail to train it in a realistic fashion.
> 
> So how can you say its working for you if you never apply it to people fighting back?? PLease show me hard concrete examples of TMA training and its application, and how you guys train it for real altercations. Especially the high end manuvers such as the nerve strike mentioned above. I truely want to know what training technique tma does that you feel adaquately prepares you to use such high lvl tech against live opponents.




I have pressure tested my training adequately, why do you suppose I have not?

I don`t have to break my friend`s nose with my elbow to know that I can, same thing with any other move.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Cirdan said:


> I have pressure tested my training adequately, why do you suppose I have not?
> 
> I don`t have to break my friend`s nose with my elbow to know that I can, same thing with any other move.



I think it's fair to ask if someone has tested their techniques against a truly resisting opponent who is also seeking to hit back. 

There's a world of difference between elbowing someone in the nose and some of the techniques previously discussed. At any rate, I don't think it's under dispute that certain techniques can work, just that they may not work against a determined opponent.


----------



## Cirdan

Jaeimseu said:


> I think it's fair to ask if someone has tested their techniques against a truly resisting opponent who is also seeking to hit back.



Of course that is a fair question, however the rest of the post pretty much asumed I had not.
There is also the labeling of TMA as unrealistic which I will disagree with.



> There's a world of difference between elbowing someone in the nose and some of the techniques previously discussed. At any rate, I don't think it's under dispute that certain techniques can work, just that they may not work against a determined opponent.



I don`t know any ninja death moves so I can`t offer insight there. However I think most traditional arts spend way more time perfecting basic things like rooting and power than they do on ... cinematic stuff.
The point of the elbow to the nose is that you can`t test that 100% either. There is no such thing as 100% sparring or we would not be going home after class.


----------



## Kframe

I would like to point to my other thread were i mention my fathers background and self defense history. My dad knows all the convoluted advanced stuff, but in every mugging and fight he has been in it was the basics that he learned that saw him through. TKD is a prime example of my issue with tma, it used to be a viable SD art untill they went the sport route and wanted to show off the kicks for the Olympics.  Im upset that the TMA allowed crap teachers to permiate there art. I cant find a decent TMA in my city, and the ones that are decent with good lineages are an hour away and not the styles i want to train.(JKD and WC with a direct lineage to Inosanto)  

So what im hearing is, that at good tma places, they test evey combination,technique against a live resisting opponent? Im not saying full power elbow to the face, but with him throwing a hard shot for real at your face and you defending and stepping in for the elbow?(its how we train it, we pull contact of the elbow, gonna change to full contact with power when we get the special face sheilds)


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Kframe said:


> I would like to point to my other thread were i mention my fathers background and self defense history. My dad knows all the convoluted advanced stuff, but in every mugging and fight he has been in it was the basics that he learned that saw him through. TKD is a prime example of my issue with tma, it used to be a viable SD art untill they went the sport route and wanted to show off the kicks for the Olympics.  Im upset that the TMA allowed crap teachers to permiate there art. I cant find a decent TMA in my city, and the ones that are decent with good lineages are an hour away and not the styles i want to train.(JKD and WC with a direct lineage to Inosanto)


So you're problems not with TMA but with recent teachers, and sport versions of TMA's? Unfortunately, there's nothing to stop teachers from being crappy..no matter what you do, those will exist. As for the sport part:yes, sport fighting has become much more important lately, but not all schools are like that. There are plenty of schools that I've seen where sports and competition are not important AT ALL..they're not even mentioned by the instructors ever. There's just less of them compared to the sport ones nowadays.


> So what im hearing is, that at good tma places, they test evey combination,technique against a live resisting opponent? Im not saying full power elbow to the face, but with him throwing a hard shot for real at your face and you defending and stepping in for the elbow?(its how we train it, we pull contact of the elbow, gonna change to full contact with power when we get the special face sheilds)


Well...yes. I can't speak for others on here, but at my old kempo place, even in drills, if you don't block, you will get punched/kicked/whatever. And if you don't move correctly, you won't get your shot off. Either their hands will come back to guard if you didn't move fast enough, they'll punch you again if you leave a hole in your defense/forget to guard or block, or they will resist being thrown so you have to throw them properly to get them on the ground, etc. Also, the drills take place with the defender either in a natural stance or in a 'fighting position' to get experience with both. So, don't know about other places, but at mine, each combo/tech is tested against a live, resisting opponent.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

And as for my tip..Before the fight, test all your techs on live resisting opponents, so you're not in for any nasty surprises XD


----------



## Mz1

Himura Kenshin said:


> [QUOTE=Mz1;1528970]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We do use fingerless gloves from time to time as well as other protectiveequipment during stress training and the idea of striking the elbow (both as acounter and as a method of taking initiative still applies). It's not magic;it's a very simple tactic. You just need repetitive training under liveconditions to do it properly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point has always been  that this technique is highly risky, yields less reward as opposed to elbowing or punching them in the temple at this position and therefore, a waste of time. This is what the early UFC showed us when it pitted TMA vs. TMA. Early UFC's weeded out all of these flashy ninja strikes and dispelled their validity in a real fight. And UFC 1-4 allowed all strikes including those to the groin, throat, eyes, etc.  Only eye gouging, fish-hooking and biting were not allowed, but did NOT disqualify a fighter. They were only fined $1000 per incident....therefore could still win a fight through biting or such. The total purse was around $60,000 for that day, so that's at least 60 incidents of being able to use eye gouges or biting and break even.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I stated retreat, I didn't mean run away. I was just refering to backingup and getting more space. You take whatever chance you want; it won't matterif your opponent is doing what I'm suggesting. If he screws it up that's hisproblem, he'd fail the technique not the other way around.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with your fighting theory is that it's just a theory. You've only practiced it through choreographed sparring and not when your opponent is trying to knock you out. You complain that the cage may be too big, thus giving the MMA room to make distance, thus, you have it all planned out in your mind that this is how it must happen, in a tight space or something.
Click to expand...


----------



## Mz1

Himura Kenshin said:


> [QUOTE=Mz1;1528970]
> Just as you are assuming I've just read theories?
> Look a sport fight doesn't resemble self-defense. In sparring or sportscompetition the fighters aim to out perform one another. Hit while avoid beinghit, choke or submit while avoiding being choked or submitted. SD is about dowhat you need to end the threat.


  

Are you trying to tell me that knocking someone out or choking them unconscious doesn't immediately end the threat whether it be in the cage/ring, street, prison, deserted island, etc.?

And the reason both fighters are going back and forth for 3-12 rounds, usually w/o anyone getting KO'ed or submitted and it goes to the judges' card is obviously because both opponents are trained fighters that are equally matched in both size and skill. These are 2 well tuned athletes (usually), not some SD guy vs. a loudmouth drunk at a bar. It's not easy to KO someone who's equally skilled. Yet you think that you can just walk up to a trained sports fighter like Mike Tyson and poke him in the eyes? 

Put any toughguy on the streets into the cage/ring vs. a real fighter and it's usually going to be a bloodbath. UFC 1-4 already proved that TMA got destroyed pretty handily, which birthed the new generation of MMA.




> In SD when the attacker attacks his mind isonly on attacking, not on thinking about what you can do to him. Soself-defense is different from sports, all the time, everytime. That doesn'tmean you can't use the skills learned from sports MA to deal with a SDsituation, it just means you have to adapt those skills to a new environment.But they cannot be treated the same.


  

Obviously you've never fought in the ring/cage, which is why you have no idea what it feels like. You just read this from some book or website and assume it's true. We get toughguys coming into our gym once in a while. They think they know how to fight. After a few months of training them proper techniques, we let them spar, supposedly at around 30-40% power. I go light but don't let them hit me, most of the time they can't even touch my face. They usually get frustrated and go crazy with full powered, haymaker swings, one after the other like in streetfights....full speed until they gas out....while all I do is play with them by jabbing and circling. It's like playing with a little kid. 

You may have been in 1-5 street fights or self defense situations in your life. But I'm going to bet 1-2. Yet you're going to base everything on just these few incidents w/o admitting to yourself that you were probably facing untrained street slobs who thought they were tough. While I train by punching & kicking guys almost 3-4x per week, religiously. Who do you think is going to be more calm & collected with more reflex, endurance, power, precision, etc...including being able to take a punch(es) to the face, during a streetfight?


----------



## Mz1

Himura Kenshin said:


> [QUOTE=Mz1;1528970]
> 
> In a life or death fight their is little thought to defense. Ever heard thesaying "the best defense is a good offense"?


  

Well I'm a counterfighter, so I think I would know this.




> That saying is truebecause in a real fight that is not about ego (i.e. proving your a big shot, ortop dog, or whatever), both combatants are aiming to attack.


 

How is trying to knock someone out in the cage/ring, not a real fight?




> If you think of attacking you cannotdefend.


 

This is wrong. It's called points of defense being employed while attacking.



> If you thinking of defending you cannot attack.


 

Wrong again. What do you think a counter is?

 [/quote]    
If for whatever reasona combatant stops attacking it is because he know longer thinks he can win. Ina real fight when that happens, someone leaves. When they don't leave it iseither sport or ego. 
[/quote]    

Tapping. This happens in the cage/ring also. Your "real fights" are usually just 2 sloppy guys on the streets gassing out and then quitting. Somethings the guy winning doesn't allow you to leave and keeps pummeling you, what then?



> This shows you've never had your life or well being actually threatened.Fighting in sports is way different than fighting in self-defense or in a H2Hbattlefield situation.


 

Yeah, it's much easier to beat up some untrained slob on the street, which is usually the case. I've had a giant buck knife pulled on me as well as guns. Is that good enough for you? The last street fight I was in, it was just pure comedy. I wished someone got it on video. I was just playing with this guy using jabs, teeps and footwork while letting him throw all out crazy punches until he gassed out (plus I probably caught him in the solar plexus with that last teep). I didn't even want to hurt him. Most other street altercations was just screaming and cussing.


----------



## bluewaveschool

Mz1 is the baddest dude on MT.  True story.


----------



## Dirty Dog

bluewaveschool said:


> Mz1 is the baddest dude on MT.  True story.



I dunno... he and Zenjael might be well matched, in many ways.


----------



## bluewaveschool

Have a good side kick.  Know where to put it. (Hint - more places than the knee).


----------



## bluewaveschool

Dirty Dog said:


> I dunno... he and Zenjael might be well matched, in many ways.




I don't know the first thing about Zenjael, but I don't think I've seen a guy believe his own hype this much in a long time.


----------



## Mz1

Himura Kenshin said:


> [QUOTE=Mz1;1528970]
> So you want me to walk into a strangers gym, beat up someone I don't know, filmit, post it, disregard everything my teacher ever taught me about the purposeof our training, all so I can win an argument with someone on the internet. Yalike that's going to happen.


 

So basically you're admitting that you really don't spar hard, maybe at all. This is nothing unusual. MA'ists do this often. At least those that are fighters. I'm not asking you to go rip off a school's sign, barge into their class and throw their school sign at the feet of the master and step on it....like in the movies.  

You just go in like a normal person, ask to train & spar, disclosing your level of experience, pay the drop-in fee, sign the injury waiver and respect their rules. I've done this with Wu Shu schools, TKD, HKD, Krav Maga, MMA, Boxing, etc. And I'm friends with all of them still. We always start out light and usually I'd ask to go harder in later rounds or another day.
 



> BTW the "ol' reliable punch them in the face" tactic is less of agood idea without gloves (i.e. in SD) cuz you risk breaking your hand againstthe person's skull. Gloves aren't designed to protect the other guy's face;they are designed to protect your hand. Use an open had to the face if that isyour target (in SD).


 

I know about this a lot better than you as I actually punch people in the face at full force quite often and therefore, am much more aware of protecting my hands. This is normal procedure really. When MMA fighters train, we switch from 16oz Boxing gloves to 7oz MMA gloves and to 4oz MMA gloves....often, depending on the drills or type of sparring. There is great care for our fists and our partner's face when sparring with the 4oz MMA gloves. We don't unload everything into our punches like we do when we have on 16oz.

On the streets, it will be very well placed punches that are carefully picked. But I'm more of a jab spammer then knees and elbow guy. 




> H





> ere we have an example of being insulting. More at the bottom.


 

Well it's a true statement. Hapikido guys aren't known for their hands just as Boxers aren't known for their kicks. Maybe you're way too sensitive.




> Of course fighters have these skills, but they are developed differently andfor a different purpose than people who train in a battlefield or SD martialart. An MMA fighter's timing, angling, and awareness are developed so that heor she is better able to win the match. Other methods use different angles,timing, and ideas about awareness because there goals are surival, escape,arrest, or kill.


 

So an MMA fighter knocking their opponent out in the street or battelfield using his MMA skills.... isn't good enough for this MMA fighter to "survive, escape, arrest (nor) kill" his opponent?




> You keep talking about people who "theorize", whatdo you think I do in the dojo anyway?


 

 I think you go through choreographed sparring and maybe light sparring but never hard sparring to test out your skills and what you think works.....so no one is really in danger of getting punched or kicked at 80-100% power in the face, body, legs, etc. If this is true, then I think that your training is highly unrealistic and doesn't prepare you for the streets nor the battlefield as well as MMA would.



> Well, the way you&#8217;ve been speaking to Tez3 just on thelast page was pretty rude. I know when I call someone an &#8220;amateur&#8221; or &#8220;Sherlock&#8221;I&#8217;m not paying them any compliments.


 

Well you're quite biased then because Tez3 dishes out the same toward me and she even admits it. Which I'm fine with because I'm not as sensitive as you are and neither is she. 



> Then there is the Hapikdo comment in red, which justspews ignorance. If those guys you sparred with weren&#8217;t very good at your gamethat doesn&#8217;t mean jack squat about Hapkido as a whole. Lumping people in agroup like that just becomes a useless &#8220;my style is better than yours argument&#8221;.


 

You obviously need to read more carefully as I actually even said this.



> Now personally, I&#8217;m offended at the constant use of &#8220;ninjamoves&#8221;. You use the term do mock the idea as fantastical garbage withoutactually explaining why you think it won&#8217;t work beyond &#8220;I&#8217;d just punch him inthe face&#8221;.  But here&#8217;s the ironic part,what I&#8217;m advocating IS A NINJA MOVE. The tactic I advocate can be seen by observingGyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu strategy.
> You don&#8217;t understand martial arts as well as you thinkyou do.



Well I'm equally offended by your usage of the term "Cagey Guys" so we're even.

And I already told you, if you've managed to step to the side of your opponent, why not elbow them with an elbow to the temple rather than this n-strike to the elbow?


----------



## Mz1

bluewaveschool said:


> Mz1 is the baddest dude on MT.  True story.



Thanks bro.


----------



## Tez3

bluewaveschool said:


> Mz1 is the baddest dude on MT. True story.



:lfao::lfao::lfao:


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> :lfao::lfao::lfao:



You see this cat Mz1 is a bad mother--
(Shut your mouth)
But I'm talkin' about Mz1
(Then we can dig it)


----------



## WC_lun

MZ1, I've had full contact fights in the past under MMA type rules, and I've had street fights.  They are different.  Yes, the training MMA fighters go through is more helpful than those "tma" schools who never test thier stuff under really resisting opponents.  However, training under a ruleset does have its disadvantages in a SD situation.  If you don't understand why this is so, it is an indicatiion of some miopic vision. Also the goals and enviroments are completly different between the two.  What you must be aware of is different. Those differences can lead to some pretty awful problems in self defense.

You will fight how you train. No exceptions, MMA or TMA.


----------



## Flying Crane

A good TMA school will include application drills in the training.  

Sparring can be part of that, but there are lots of ways to spar and some ways are better and more useful than others.  Open, heavy-contact sparring really isn't all that necessary for most people, if they are training for personal self defense and not training for the ring.  Heavy sparring leads to injury, and that can build over time and turn into bad stuff down the road.  If you choose to do that because you are involved in a combative sport, that's your choice and it's fine.  But to pretend like that approach to training is THE yardstick against which all training must be measured, is simply not true.

No, you do not need to do heavy sparring, and yes, you can still develop good self defense skills.


----------



## jks9199

Mz1 said:


> *I've only trained in BJJ (by Japanese Judokas) *and Danzan Ryu Jujutsu so how could I possibly know what "randori" means.  And years of MA traditions doesn't automatically makes it effective. Some of it is for show, like a 540 degrees tornado kick or something. I'm sure it can hurt someone, but go ahead, try it in a real fight. This is the point.


Kinda confused, now...

You've trained in Brazilian JuJitsu by Japanese Judo practitioners?  Ain't that kind of like doing woodcarving in marble?


----------



## Mz1

WC_lun said:


> MZ1, I've had full contact fights in the past under MMA type rules, and I've had street fights.  They are different.  Yes, the training MMA fighters go through is more helpful than those "tma" schools who never test thier stuff under really resisting opponents.  However, training under a ruleset does have its disadvantages in a SD situation.  If you don't understand why this is so, it is an indicatiion of some miopic vision. Also the goals and enviroments are completly different between the two.  What you must be aware of is different. Those differences can lead to some pretty awful problems in self defense.
> 
> You will fight how you train. No exceptions, MMA or TMA.



Your personal experience doesn't make you the final authority on how every streetfight must be like.

There are many factors involved, with the most obvious being, most streetfights are not to the death and crap like many SD people pretend they usually are (to sign up students or keep them from going to MMA). Every phone's got a camera nowadays. There are tons of streetfight videos on the internet now. Not just Youtube, but the X & R rated sites where much more brutal fights are posted. 

In such videos, about one out of a hundred has someone beaten severely. Most of the time...once someone is KO'ed or knockdown, the fight is broken up before anyone comes close to dying. Either broken up by bystanders, police, friends of the loser or even friends of the winner....like a Referee. Many times the winner just stops on his own. I may have seen ONE or TWO out of thousands of fight and violent attack videos where someone actually does die.

You say you've had streetfights. Me too. Now what? Your MMA type rules fights...they can mean anything from smoker fights to low level, local tournaments. I beat some of the  MMA fighters in my gym who've had more fights than me, they know what's up. If you were a Pro, even low level Pro in MMA, I may listen more to your argument.

My friend, who's pure TKD, HKD, Boxing and hates MMA...has had over 50 streetfights and a small room used to display all of his TKD tournament trophies & medals. He used to take PCP just so he can train longer and harder, and then go out with his friends looking for fights in Black neighborhoods where his stores were (he's Korean). Most of his fights were him punching some loudmouth guy in the face for stepping up to him at his store, the guy drops or is KO'ed, then it's over. He's fought 5 Chinese guys at once before. He's been in firefights in the streets and at his stores. He's been shot, those fighting friends of his...some were shot to death, etc. He used to have a deathwish when he was young. But his vast street fighting experience means nothing in terms of setting some kind of mold for how all streetfights must be different than in the cage/ring as you imply.  



> You will fight how you train. No exceptions, MMA or TMA.



No exceptions huh? So seeing that how SD and TMA people spar their ninja techniques by pretending to eye gouge someone or pretending to kick them in the nuts....this must mean that when fighting in the streets, they're going to pretend strike just like how they train?

Here's a good example of a Karateka who spent probably most of his time never actually sparring hard for KO's, so he ends up just fake fighting as his normalcy......and gets his bell rung by a Boxer who trains for real by taking real punches to the head and dishing the same out.


----------



## WC_lun

You being an MMA practitioner does not make you the authority on street fighting either.   I talk from my experience, my limited time in law enforcement, my multiple contacts in law enforcement, many years in various arts, and common sense.

You talk a lot of friends you have that do this or that.  You talk about how much of a bad *** you are.  Good for you.  Self defense training in martial arts isn't for you.  It is for the regular joe.  Fully resising opponents are neccessary, but not too soon and not too often.  

If you think knocking out an attacker or getting into position to choke them out is easy all the time, you are a fool.  As you say, SD is situational and believing everyone is a drunk chump who will be an easy fight just isn't realistic.  Sometimes they are even well trained.

You've watched a lot of videos, huh?  Explains a lot.

Finally, yes, you will absolutely fight how you train. No exceptions. If you train in fantasy, your ability to defend yourself will also be a fantasy.  Train in reality, and your defense skills will be realistic.  Everything in between is aplicable as well.


----------



## Cirdan

There used to be a street named after Mz1, but it was changed because no one crosses him and lives


----------



## Mz1

Flying Crane said:


> A good TMA school will include application drills in the training.
> 
> Sparring can be part of that, but there are lots of ways to spar and some ways are better and more useful than others.  Open, heavy-contact sparring really isn't all that necessary for most people, if they are training for personal self defense and not training for the ring.  Heavy sparring leads to injury, and that can build over time and turn into bad stuff down the road.  If you choose to do that because you are involved in a combative sport, that's your choice and it's fine.  But to pretend like that approach to training is THE yardstick against which all training must be measured, is simply not true.
> 
> No, you do not need to do heavy sparring, and yes, you can still develop good self defense skills.




Yes, there are risks in MMA for injuries, much more so than TMA. But  it's just fun. Most do it for the adrenaline rush. This why MMA is  taking over. It's just fun to compete. You can't really compete by  pretending to nut & eye strike. No one wants to watch nor  participate in that.

Training SD techniques and sparring light to medium is certainly valid and certainly better than nothing. I never implied that it was useless. Just that training in MMA and sparring light to hard for KO's will prepare you for the real fights much BETTER, whether they be in the ring/cage or in the streets.

The main problem with SD play fighting is that it never addresses the high possibility of getting punched in the face, repeatedly...especially if their SD techniques fails. SDs' chins _USUALLY_ have never been tested for real. Not just the chin, but the rest of the head, body, legs, etc. Most people get a rude awakening the very first time they got punched in the face. Some freeze up or panic. It takes time and dedicated practice to get used to this and to continue to fight. 

Even Bruce Lee thought that he could just end the fight vs. Jak Man Wong with a few eye & throat strikes in a matter of seconds. Ended up with 2 stories. One from his wife & Bruce himself claiming that he won while the other by Jak Man Wong who claimed that Bruce Lee tried to kill him with deathstrikes in what was supposed to be a friendly match, yet he managed to beat Bruce after ~20 minutes of fighting. What was certain was that Bruce renounced Wing Chun as his sole base training and started cross training what works....Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Judo, etc.  <- I'll get in trouble for this one.

Another problem with light sparring only, and I'm guilty myself, is that you often take really high risks such as throwing 5 tapping jabs, doing risky moves, etc. because you know the other guy is only going to tap you back. I've thrown a jab, uppercut, hook and uppercut combo with one hand just yesterday during light sparring and landed all 4 punches. The opponent was a noob and I was just not taking him seriously. Got yelled at by the coach because that was not real Boxing and a good Boxer would have dropped me.


----------



## Mz1

jks9199 said:


> Kinda confused, now...
> 
> You've trained in Brazilian JuJitsu by Japanese Judo practitioners?  Ain't that kind of like doing woodcarving in marble?



My senseis started out from a long line of Judokas. They switched to BJJ after admittedly getting whooped in their own Judo studio by visiting BJJ's.  And BJJ is what pays the bills nowadays. What Judo dojo can charge $150-210/month with a 12-month contract minimum?

I cross train in all sorts of TMA's. I try to bring in what works against pure Muay Thai guys at my gym to use on them. So despite my posts, I'm very open to various techniques, just as long as they make sense and I will try them out in sparring.


----------



## WC_lun

MZ1, it apears you have a faulty idea of true TMA.  We don't pretend and play.  We do get hit in the face.  Those schools you refer to are not TMA.  Heck they aren't really even real martial arts schools, in my opinion.  You are painting TMA with a broad brush that isn't accurate for most.  Many schools' training includes testing thier training with hard sparring, rolling, and/or both.  Have you ever trained at a reputable TMA school?


----------



## Flying Crane

Mz1 said:


> Yes, there are risks in MMA for injuries, much more so than TMA. But it's just fun. Most do it for the adrenaline rush. *This why MMA is taking over.* It's just fun to compete. You can't really compete by pretending to nut & eye strike. No one wants to watch nor participate in that.



MMA is not taking over.  Those who are interested in it, do it.  Those who are not, don't.  I don't see any mass-exodus from TMA schools to MMA schools.



> Training SD techniques and sparring light to medium is certainly valid and certainly better than nothing. I never implied that it was useless. Just that training in MMA and sparring light to hard for KO's will prepare you for the real fights much BETTER, whether they be in the ring/cage or in the streets.
> 
> The main problem with SD play fighting is that it never addresses the high possibility of getting punched in the face, repeatedly...especially if their SD techniques fails. SDs' chins _USUALLY_ have never been tested for real. Not just the chin, but the rest of the head, body, legs, etc. Most people get a rude awakening the very first time they got punched in the face. Some freeze up or panic. It takes time and dedicated practice to get used to this and to continue to fight.
> 
> Even Bruce Lee thought that he could just end the fight vs. Jak Man Wong with a few eye & throat strikes in a matter of seconds. Ended up with 2 stories. One from his wife & Bruce himself claiming that he won while the other by Jak Man Wong who claimed that Bruce Lee tried to kill him with deathstrikes in what was supposed to be a friendly match, yet he managed to beat Bruce after ~20 minutes of fighting. What was certain was that Bruce renounced Wing Chun as his sole base training and started cross training what works....Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Judo, etc. <- I'll get in trouble for this one.
> 
> Another problem with light sparring only, and I'm guilty myself, is that you often take really high risks such as throwing 5 tapping jabs, doing risky moves, etc. because you know the other guy is only going to tap you back. I've thrown a jab, uppercut, hook and uppercut combo with one hand just yesterday during light sparring and landed all 4 punches. The opponent was a noob and I was just not taking him seriously. Got yelled at by the coach because that was not real Boxing and a good Boxer would have dropped me.



you don't have to do "free" sparring of any kind.   There are other interactive drills that work well for developing self defense skills.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Mz1

I use to find these threads irritating but now I find them fascinating. I am assuming you are young, at least compared to me, and all I have to say is back in the old days probably around the end of the last ice age, in your view, the guys I trained with were TMA and we did not use pads or protective gear and we got injured from time to time. We did not spar using &#8220;ninja techniques by pretending to eye gouge someone&#8221; we did not &#8220;pretending to kick them in the nuts&#8221; and we did not do it for real either we kind of wanted to have people to train with and liked each other and those types of techniques are not conducive to getting people to train with or making friends. But we did kick the living daylights out of one another, we got punched and we got slammed on the ground allot (no padded floors then either so you learned how to fall too) and we got hurt, oh and the joint locks were not all to comfortable either. That was way back, probably before you were born, but I could be wrong there, and it was right around the time Enter the Dragon came out as a new movie. That was Japanese jiujitsu. After that I trained another TMA or it could be argued it is a sports MA but it was before TKD was an Olympic sport and we did not use padding or protective gear there either, and again no &#8220;ninja techniques by pretending to eye gouge someone&#8221; we did not &#8220;pretending to kick them in the nuts&#8221; and that was way back when Chuck Norris was known as a fighter not a movie star, and in none of that did we ever &#8220;pretend strike&#8221;. We did get hurt, bruised and battered from time to time though and learned to block and avoid getting hit but not a whole lot of pretending.

I later switched to CMA and again that training was totally devoid of &#8220;ninja techniques by pretending to eye gouge someone&#8221; we did not &#8220;pretending to kick them in the nuts&#8221;. But that was the first time I ran into protective gear. Left that school and went to other CMA schools and never ran into protective gear again. Of course some of those were not training all that hard either but others were and again when you do that, you will get injured.

Now I am far from the longest or oldest MA practitioner on this page, there are others that started before me and likely took more beatings that I did. But what I find most interesting is that it seems that about every 2 years or so a guy, like you, shows up on MT to show us all the error of our ways and telling us all how badly we train, how horrible TMA is, and how he trains for real and it so much better than all others. They all appears to be on a quest to prove their point for some reason or another and do not seem to realize that it is mostly opinion and that if they approached it just a little different they would get a whole lot further. Most seem to have a little training in TMA or a lot in one style or possibly two and they then go off and judge every single TMA worldwide based on their little exposure to it or their extensive exposure to a little of it. Some have been arm chair MMAist but they tend to use a lot more vitriol and outrageous clams than you are. But yet not one seems to have figured out they did not invent training for real or pressure testing or whatever the newest buzz word is to make them sound like they have discovered something. It was there long before they came along and it will be there long after they leave.

Now am I saying all TMA school train fighters&#8230;lord no&#8230; I have seen some pretty pathetic examples of things referred to as sparing over the years and I have seen the occasional &#8220;pretend strike&#8221;, &#8220;ninja techniques by pretending to eye gouge someone&#8221; and the &#8220;pretending to kick them in the nuts&#8221;. But let me ask you, have you ever gouged someone&#8217;s eye out while training or kicked them in the nuts or hit them hard enough to make them fall down. Sadly I have done two out of 3 of those over the years and almost did the other and been the victim of 2 and a half out of 3 of those myself. Also sadly been in more than my fair share of fights (use to have a job that required it) and I am not at all thrilled with any of that. It is one thing to talk about a thing and berate others for not doing it but it is a completely different thing once you have done it, you tend to spend less time talknig about it afterwards. 

There are both good and bad TMA schools and good and bad TMA practitioners just like there are good and bad MMA schools and good and bad BJJ schools and good and bad practitioners of both. I am willing to admit there are likely fewer poorly trained MMA people of BJJ people but before you go off halfcocked and get a big head out of that you also have to know there are fewer MMA schools and fewer BJJ school than there are TMA schools and the TMA styles have been around a lot longer. I have recently head of a BJJ school that is doing much the same as some of the TMA schools around today and making getting a belts easy&#8230;and you know what, that actually makes me a bit sad but the reality is the longer a style exists the more likely it is to get corrupted by those less than qualified to teach who are more interested in the dollar than the style or their students

The biggest difference form really training TMA and really training MMA is this. One trains to fight someone he hopes to never see again and the other trains to fight someone he will see again. 

I have said my piece, I'm done, I leave the tilting at windmills stuff to you and the next guy that comes along.


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## Mz1

WC_lun said:


> You being an MMA practitioner does not make you the authority on street fighting either.



Which is why I never claimed that streetsfights must inherently be different than cage/ring fights, you did.  And I never claimed that both must be the same neither.



> I talk from my experience, my limited time in law enforcement, my multiple contacts in law enforcement, many years in various arts, and common sense.



There are cops, feds, SWAT, Marines, Army Rangers, etc. at my MMA gym. I beat some and lose to some. What's the big deal? If they're new and with no other fight training other than the mediocre H2H training they've received from their perspective organization, then they're just a little bit above the average, new White belt. 



> You talk a lot of friends you have that do this or that.  You talk about how much of a bad *** you are.  Good for you.  Self defense training in martial arts isn't for you.  It is for the regular joe.  Fully resising opponents are neccessary, but not too soon and not too often.



I'm just saying that MMA is better than SD for both applications whether it's in the ring/cage or streets. I can't help it if you're sensitive to this.



> If you think knocking out an attacker or getting into position to choke them out is easy all the time, you are a fool.



Well you certainly are a fool if you think that I think this, . Once again, you're another person who likes to fabricate what I supposedly think or say. Show me where I said this.



> As you say, SD is situational and believing everyone is a drunk chump who will be an easy fight just isn't realistic.



Again? Show me where I said this, otherwise it's the second time that you made up lies.



> Sometimes they are even well trained.



I know that, thank you.



> You've watched a lot of videos, huh?  Explains a lot.



You too. And you make up lies about what I supposedly said, twice.



> Finally, yes, you will absolutely fight how you train. No exceptions. If you train in fantasy, your ability to defend yourself will also be a fantasy.  Train in reality, and your defense skills will be realistic.  Everything in between is aplicable as well.



Thank you for helping me debate your own self. But I wouldn't go as far as you did in implying that SD training is "fantasy".


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## Mz1

WC_lun said:


> MZ1, it apears you have a faulty idea of true TMA.  We don't pretend and play.  We do get hit in the face.  Those schools you refer to are not TMA.  Heck they aren't really even real martial arts schools, in my opinion.  You are painting TMA with a broad brush that isn't accurate for most.  Many schools' training includes testing thier training with hard sparring, rolling, and/or both.  Have you ever trained at a reputable TMA school?



I never said this at all. I know that there are TMA schools that will spar hard and do have fight teams. Some TMA schools have allowed me to spar hard, usually vs. their instructors (most don't though). I fight in WKA events and they're run by Karatekas from a Karate school that's now added MMA. There are plenty of TMA guys locally that can kick my ***.

I just said that many TMA schools don't spar hard nor fights in full contact tournaments. This is why they're losing students fast to MMA.


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## Flying Crane

Mz1 said:


> I just said that many TMA schools don't spar hard nor fights in full contact tournaments.



again, this is not THE magical yardstick against which all training must be measured.



> This is why they're losing students fast to MMA.



and again, no they are not.


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## Mz1

Flying Crane said:


> MMA is not taking over.  Those who are interested in it, do it.  Those who are not, don't.  I don't see any mass-exodus from TMA schools to MMA schools.



I guess what I mean is that those who wants to train to fight are leaving TMA for MMA. Making a living being a TMA'ist was pretty tough before, but recently has just gotten much more difficult due to MMA. 



> you don't have to do "free" sparring of any kind.   There are other interactive drills that work well for developing self defense skills.



Luckily, most SD people, never have to rely on these other interactive drills in real life attacks to prove or disprove your assertion....as they're extremely rare....and running  or threatening to call the police, usually works. 

Sparring hard and fighting tournaments doesn't guarantee anything neither as I'd be the first to admit that there's unpredictability in the streets, prison, etc.  But I'll still stick to my notion that MMA w/fight and hard sparring experience is way better than your TMA constructive sparring & drills.


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## Flying Crane

Mz1 said:


> I guess what I mean is that those who wants to train to fight are leaving TMA for MMA. Making a living being a TMA'ist was pretty tough before, but recently has just gotten much more difficult due to MMA.



well yes, people who LIKE to fight would be best served in a school that makes competition a big focus.  Not everyone who trains martial arts likes to fight, including those who can defend themselves quite well.  For most people, self defense would be a necessary evil and not something to be enjoyed, but done if circumstances make it necessary.



> Luckily, most SD people, never have to rely on these other interactive drills in real life attacks to prove or disprove your assertion....as they're extremely rare....and running or threatening to call the police, usually works.
> 
> Sparring hard and fighting tournaments doesn't guarantee anything neither as I'd be the first to admit that there's unpredictability in the streets, prison, etc. But I'll still stick to my notion that MMA w/fight and hard sparring experience is way better than your TMA constructive sparring & drills.



it's true, most people have very very little chance of needing to ever use their skills.  And it's also true, I expect trained martial competitors can probably defend themselves quite well.  

and what you may think of other kinds of drills, well, honestly I don't care.  The fact that you don't put much stock in them really doesn't affect me, and you are welcome to believe what you want.


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## bluewaveschool

Btw, you did realize I was mocking you earlier, right?


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## bluewaveschool

I'm not a fighter, I've never claimed to be.  There are a lot of people on this board that I respect from their words and how they handle themselves when they disagree with people.  A lot I'd like to train with for a few days.  And those people, those are the ones I'd REALLY be concerned about dropping me in an instant.  The ones that don't need to talk about themselves.  You however... dude, I'm not sure there is a soul in this thread that believes you are what you claim to be.  I give your trolling a 2/10, only because a few have bit and debated you.


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## Mz1

Xue Sheng said:


> Mz1
> I use to find these threads irritating but now I find them fascinating. I am assuming you are young, at least compared to me, and all I have to say is back in the old days probably around the end of the last ice age, in your view, the guys I trained with were TMA and we did not use pads or protective gear and we got injured from time to time. We did not spar using ninja techniques by pretending to eye gouge someone we did not pretending to kick them in the nuts and we did not do it for real either we kind of wanted to have people to train with and liked each other and those types of techniques are not conducive to getting people to train with or making friends. But we did kick the living daylights out of one another, we got punched and we got slammed on the ground allot (no padded floors then either so you learned how to fall too) and we got hurt, oh and the joint locks were not all to comfortable either. That was way back, probably before you were born, but I could be wrong there, and it was right around the time Enter the Dragon came out as a new movie. That was Japanese jiujitsu. After that I trained another TMA or it could be argued it is a sports MA but it was before TKD was an Olympic sport and we did not use padding or protective gear there either, and again no ninja techniques by pretending to eye gouge someone we did not pretending to kick them in the nuts and that was way back when Chuck Norris was known as a fighter not a movie star, and in none of that did we ever pretend strike. We did get hurt, bruised and battered from time to time though and learned to block and avoid getting hit but not a whole lot of pretending.
> 
> I later switched to CMA and again that training was totally devoid of  ninja techniques by pretending to eye gouge someone we did not  pretending to kick them in the nuts. But that was the first time I ran  into protective gear. Left that school and went to other CMA schools  and never ran into protective gear again. Of course some of those were  not training all that hard either but others were and again when you do  that, you will get injured.



Hey hi. It's funny how you've been trying to tell me how overly macho I try to pretend to be while here you are telling me about how badass you are in your glory days, training w/o safety gear and slamming hard guys on hard floors (oops that didn't sound right) and such.

Were you a gladiator or something? I know those guys are pretty old and didn't have titanium safety gear and such like we do today. I know Fred Flintstone used to start his car with his bare feet, but does that mean it's better? We train with safety gear is because we want to to avoid injuries, in order to keep training as hard as possible and often.  Oh and teeth, they're nice to have. And I don't think you can condition your teeth to not get knocked out.



> Now I am far from the longest or oldest MA practitioner on this page, there are others that started before me and likely took more beatings that I did. But what I find most interesting is that it seems that about every 2 years or so a guy, like you, shows up on MT to show us all the error of our ways and telling us all how badly we train, how horrible TMA is, and how he trains for real and it so much better than all others.



That certainly is my opinion, that MMA trains more realistically than TMA.  Early UFC's and especially UFC 1-4 proved a lot of this. 



> Now am I saying all TMA school train fighterslord no I have seen some pretty pathetic examples of things referred to as sparing over the years and I have seen the occasional pretend strike, ninja techniques by pretending to eye gouge someone and the pretending to kick them in the nuts. But let me ask you, have you ever gouged someones eye out while training or kicked them in the nuts or hit them hard enough to make them fall down. Sadly I have done two out of 3 of those over the years and almost did the other and been the victim of 2 and a half out of 3 of those myself.



Yes, been kicked in the nuts and have kicked others in the nuts by accident. It takes more skills to fight someone under strict rules. If an MMA fighter trains at kicking with speed, power and precision at LEGAL targets of fully resisting opponents who are also fighting back, how easy would it be to not worry about any rules at all and kick someone in the nuts in a streetfight? 



> Also sadly been in more than my fair share of fights (use to have a job that required it) and I am not at all thrilled with any of that. It is one thing to talk about a thing and berate others for not doing it but it is a completely different thing once you have done it, you tend to spend less time talknig about it afterwards.



Aww c'mon now. You certainly are proud of these fights, which is why you're bringing them up. I bet you talk about it often at bars or on Bingo nights. 



> The biggest difference form really training TMA and really training MMA is this. One trains to fight someone he hopes to never see again and the other trains to fight someone he will see again.



Both fights still starts out with the same intensity and brutality. Eating an elbow to the face is no different in the ring/cage as it is in the street. 

And what if I fight my next door neighbor in the street? How can I hope to never see him again? And should I be using my ninja death strikes on my next door neighbor too? And I've only seen three guys that I've fought before in the ring and cage. 



> I have said my piece, I'm done, I leave the tilting at windmills stuff to you and the next guy that comes along.



That was more like an essay, but OK,  have a good one friendo.


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## Xue Sheng

Mz1 said:


> Hey hi. It's funny how you've been trying to tell me how overly macho I try to pretend to be while here you are telling me about how badass you are in your glory days, training w/o safety gear and slamming hard guys on hard floors (oops that didn't sound right) and such.
> 
> Were you a gladiator or something? I know those guys are pretty old and didn't have titanium safety gear and such like we do today. I know Fred Flintstone used to start his car with his bare feet, but does that mean it's better? We train with safety gear is because we want to to avoid injuries, in order to keep training as hard as possible and often.  Oh and teeth, they're nice to have. And I don't think you can condition your teeth to not get knocked out.
> 
> 
> 
> That certainly is my opinion, that MMA trains more realistically than TMA.  Early UFC's and especially UFC 1-4 proved a lot of this.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, been kicked in the nuts and have kicked others in the nuts by accident. It takes more skills to fight someone under strict rules. If an MMA fighter trains at kicking with speed, power and precision at LEGAL targets of fully resisting opponents who are also fighting back, how easy would it be to not worry about any rules at all and kick someone in the nuts in a streetfight?
> 
> 
> 
> Aww c'mon now. You certainly are proud of these fights, which is why you're bringing them up. I bet you talk about it often at bars or on Bingo nights.
> 
> 
> 
> Both fights still starts out with the same intensity and brutality. Eating an elbow to the face is no different in the ring/cage as it is in the street.
> 
> And what if I fight my next door neighbor in the street? How can I hope to never see him again? And should I be using my ninja death strikes on my next door neighbor too? And I've only seen three guys that I've fought before in the ring and cage.
> 
> 
> 
> That was more like an essay, but OK,  have a good one friendo.




Yup, pretty much the response I expected..... Condescension, missing the point, making assumptions, arrogance.... standard arm chair MMAist stuff..... you are not what you are claiming are you&#8230;.. and you are pretty young too aren't you..... if you were what you claimed you would not feel the need to respond the way you do&#8230;.. but eventually you will go away just like those that came before you with the same exact silliness so continuing this would be a waste of my time....... you also did not succeed at making me angry either, which I am fairly certain was your goal in order to continue your ridiculousness.... have a nice day youngster

My opinion of Mz1 and this entire thread he has here

:trollsign


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## Aiki Lee

Wow Mz1, bravo for all your astounding observations. I barely even know where to begin and am debating whether or not I even should address what you said, because now I do believe you are merely trolling.

I have to go to work now, but I'll get back to your nonsense when I come back.



Also on a different note, I'm glad so many of you seemed to understand what I wrote despite my poor splleing, runningwordstogether, and over all lack of basic writing skills.


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## Kframe

WC_lun said:


> MZ1, it apears you have a faulty idea of true TMA.  We don't pretend and play.  We do get hit in the face.  Those schools you refer to are not TMA.  Heck they aren't really even real martial arts schools, in my opinion.  You are painting TMA with a broad brush that isn't accurate for most.  Many schools' training includes testing thier training with hard sparring, rolling, and/or both.  Have you ever trained at a reputable TMA school?


 
I think you may be right, but the problem is, and i have it, is that finding a quality tma school is incredibly hard. Especially when you know what you want and which orgs have stupid rules that limit the SD applicability of there art.  I think the TMA orgs are to blame for this. By not rigidly and harshly setting and enforcing standards you end up with ALOT of mcdojo schools, and in the case of the ATA an entire organization that is mcdojo.


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## Flying Crane

Kframe said:


> I think you may be right, but the problem is, and i have it, is that finding a quality tma school is incredibly hard. Especially when you know what you want and which orgs have stupid rules that limit the SD applicability of there art. I think the TMA orgs are to blame for this. By not rigidly and harshly setting and enforcing standards you end up with ALOT of mcdojo schools, and in the case of the ATA an entire organization that is mcdojo.



yeah, that is the problem.  My sifu teaches in his back yard, doesn't advertise, doesn't even really accept students and you don't get to even meet him unless you've got a contact with someone who can give you an introduction.  I trained with another sifu for over 11 years before he finally took me to meet his sifu, who then became my sifu.  Without that introduction I never would have gotten in the door.  I think a lot of the better sifu sort of work on this kind of theme.  It's not a business, they aren't trying to make money.  They are trying to teach the real art, and few people have the patience and dedication to follow thru and learn it.

A lot of the training methods do not look like what a "real" martial art "should" look like, to a generation raised on combat sports like MMA. People have a notion, based on their experiences and what they've seen, about what a fighting art should look like, and a lot of TMA incorporate practices that don't fit that description.  But if you understand the purpose of those practices, and the approach to training that these TMA take, you realize that it develops long-term skills and longevity in the art.  THis is stuff that may take a bit longer to develop, but the ultimate potential is very high and you can keep practicing it at a very high level well into old age.  But only if you follow the methods that the system includes.  And that means you don't spend years getting your head pounded and your joints smashed in competitions and lots of heavy sparring.  That is a good road to a short career with a lot of cumulative injuries building up.

That heavy sparring and stuff does develop skills, and it develops them fairly quickly, I don't deny it.  But it's not the only way to do it and if you aren't interested in competition and you have some patience with the process, then there's little reason to do it that way.

But yes, you've got to find the right teacher and that's often not an easy task.  They may not live in your area.

where are you, by the way?


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## Kframe

Flying crane i live in NE indiana, near fort wayne. There is no shortage of TMA here, its just that by the standards i have researched on this site and google that most are junk. Tho its not for me i have  found my martial path and enjoy it.  When the time is right i may join that tma school that i feel is quality,  if only so i can practice with my kids and help them. 

My tip is, if your art practices take down defense, dont just pay it lip service, spend time each week practicing it.


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## Flying Crane

Kframe said:


> Flying crane i live in NE indiana, near fort wayne. There is no shortage of TMA here, its just that by the standards i have researched on this site and google that most are junk. Tho its not for me i have found my martial path and enjoy it. When the time is right i may join that tma school that i feel is quality, if only so i can practice with my kids and help them.
> 
> My tip is, if your art practices take down defense, dont just pay it lip service, spend time each week practicing it.



Yeah, I don't know anyone in that area that I might recommend.  I get your frustration with the situation.  Sometimes that's just the way it is.  I grew up in a small town in Wisconsin, and I knew I needed to get out of there if I wanted to train quality martial arts.  I moved to San Francisco, where many good teachers live.  I understand that making a move like that is not possible for everyone, and it would be much more difficult for me to make the move now, than it was right after college.  

Get the best instruction that you possibly can.  If you discover better instruction, take that instead.  There's a tip.


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## Jaeimseu

Qqqqq


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## elder999

Going to weigh in here, against my better judgement. I&#8217;m not so sure that Mz1 isn&#8217;t one of young Alex&#8217;s (Zenjael&#8217;s) alters-like his ex-girlfriend, just another sliver of his multiple personality disorder-or, at least, part of his personality disorder. What leads me to this? Posts like this:



Mz1 said:


> I've only trained in BJJ (by Japanese Judokas) and Danzan Ryu Jujutsu *so how could I possibly know what "randori" means*. And years of MA traditions doesn't automatically makes it effective. Some of it is for show, like a 540 degrees tornado kick or something. I'm sure it can hurt someone, but go ahead, try it in a real fight. This is the point.



Since I&#8217;ve trained in BJJ a little, but trained in judo since I was 11, and I&#8217;ve also trained on more than one occasion with Danzan Ryu jujutsu folks, and trained in jujutsu myself, I have to say that, frankly, I don&#8217;t see how you could be trained &#8220;by Japanese Judokas,&#8221; or in Danzan ryu jujutsu, and *not* have some idea of what &#8220;randori&#8221; means, _since both arts use the term._

Hell, in this context, I&#8217;m not so sure that Kano didn&#8217;t _invent_ the term. :lfao:

Anyway....all this noise about training methodologies, gloves or not, gear or not, contact or not, MMA or not, is just that: _*noise*_, and I&#8217;m going to impart the one tip that *I* think counts the most, in any context-strategy or tactics, training methodology, and high vs. low vs. don&#8217;t use the same technique more than five times be damned. BTW, Zenjael, &#8220;Five?&#8221; _Really?? _Where&#8217;d ya come up with that one? If you can hit a guy with five uppercuts in a row, go ahead and do so-it&#8217;s probably three too many if the first two landed, anyway...:lfao: 

First, a couple of stories.

When I was a 14 year old kid in boarding school, I had a friend whose younger sister-all of 11 or 12-was really, really, *really* hip for her age. They lived in Manhattan, and at the age of 11, she successfully fended off a mugging/attempted rape. How ? Well, a guy grabbed her and tried to drag her into a basement entry below the sidewalk-you can picture the kind-and she instantly froze up and said, _Oh God. *Please* don&#8217;t let me kill again._ 
He must have believed her, because the guy let go of her, and away she ran. :lfao:

Yet another, that some here have probably heard. Since it&#8217;s not my story, I&#8217;ll leave the names and particulars out. A pretty well known traditional martial arts instructor in Colorado was hosting his teacher from Japan for some seminars. His teacher-at that point a fairly elderly individual-was challenged to resist _the awesome ground and pound skills_  of an MMA fighter at the seminar. His teacher acquiesced, and when the young man took him down, proceeded to choke him out with the lace he&#8217;d surreptitiously removed from his shoe. :lfao:

And, of course, there are countless stories of trained and untrained people disarming gunmen, or people with knives, or fighting off superior numbers-of late, there&#8217;s the story of the Gurkha on the train.....

Bottom line, though, what it comes down to:

What am I willing to do? _Whatever it takes._

Will I prevail? _I *will*, or die trying_

Call it a combination of resolve and intent, or call it mindset-call it whatever you like, but if these qualities aren&#8217;t trained and developed, then all the strategy, tactics, skills and attributes developed by whatever sort of training one is engaged in, traditional or otherwise, is just dancing. (BTW, for another tip, ala Mr. Lawson&#8217;s post, nothing beats dancing-as in ballroom dancing: cha-cha, waltz, two step, foxtrot, etc.-for establishing some critical movement skills needed for hand to hand combat.)

When I was mugged all those years ago on the subway, well, I&#8217;d gotten my pen ready as soon as I saw those young men. Fact is, in my mind, I&#8217;d killed all three of them of a couple of times before they made their move. Sure, I handed over my Rolex, and my throwdown wallet (a New York necessity, really) but when they told that kid to cut me, I put my pen in his neck, several times. So many things stick out from that incident for me, but the one that I have carried since then is the way his companions flinched when I looked at them, after sticking the pen in his neck the second or third time, and the way they ran. I&#8217;ve never been able to do it in the mirror and see for myself, but over the years I&#8217;ve given people &#8220;the look,&#8221; *that* look, and it&#8217;s never failed me. If I give that look (and I can feel it on my face, I just don't know what it looks like-except maybe that I want to kill someone) and say, "Sit down and shut up," well, that's usually what people do. If I don't say anything and just hit them, they pretty much go down. If they've come at me with bad intent, and there's any talking involved, they usually change their minds......if they have any sense, I guess. :lol:

Attitude. Intention. Resolve.

Mindset. It's what I mean when I say "Keep your knife sharp."

Sure, technique and strategy are important-that&#8217;s why I&#8217;d practiced using the pen, and why I&#8217;d slipped it into my sleeve as soon as those boys showed up on the platform-but mindset carries the day, whether it&#8217;s in the dojo, in a tournament, full contact or points, MMA or life and death on the streets.


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## Aiki Lee

Ok, let's do this thing.

edit: apparently the quote feature is beyond my mortal abilities and I keep screwing it up. So Mz1's comments are in red

Mz1
"Show me where I said that I'd always assume someone on the street to automatically be an untrained slob. You completely made this up."

"Again? Show me where I said this, otherwise it's the second time that you made up lies." 

Ok here's an example of why I don't think you understand how to effectively argue something. Originally you made some comment around the lines of "that might work against an untrained/drunken slob, but not someone trained."
Those of us who commented on it were basically saying, "we treat every opponent as competent and dangerous"; somehow that go turned around into you thinking we were accusing you of thinking you assume the attacker is incompetent. That's not what we were saying. We are saying (or at least I am anyway) that any skill we practice is meant to work against someone actively trying to hurt you and you always assume that person is competent. So no one is accusing you of saying anything about assuming the opposite. Not quite sure how you picked that out honestly.

Mz1
"How is trying to knock someone out in the cage/ring, not a real fight?"

"Real fight" may be a poor choice of words then. What I am talking about is a non-competitive fight, i.e. a fight where one does not try to just defeat their opponent but seriously hurt him or her.
&#12288;

Mz1
"You obviously have not fought anyone trained nor experienced then because your last sentence just tells me that you fought these untrained slobs that I was talking about. And it's not even correct. You just described one type of fighting style, counterfighting. Not all "Cagey Guys" are counterfighters."

Again my use of the term "Cagey" is meant to describe the mentality found in competitive fighting. It's a necessary mentality for the sport, but doesn't work well in most SD situations. The "Cagey" mentality is not ment to be inflammatory towards cage fighters; hell my brother is a cage fighter. The idea is that when you are competing, whether in the ring, cage, or a bar cause the person is too egocentric to just leave, a "cagey" fighter looks to gauge his opponent to provoke action he can counter. It's not a bad thing in competition, but SD doesn't really apply here because if the guy is bobbing and weaving then I'm leaving. If there is no attack and the guy is just waiting for you to come fight with him then it is not self-defense. There is a lack of intent to commit serious harm. 


Mz1
"I've only trained in BJJ (by Japanese Judokas) and Danzan Ryu Jujutsu so how could I possibly know what "randori" means. And years of MA traditions doesn't automatically makes it effective. Some of it is for show, like a 540 degrees tornado kick or something. I'm sure it can hurt someone, but go ahead, try it in a real fight. This is the point."

If you know about randori, then you know TMA have methods for pressure testing their skills. Now, not all schools do this and I think it is a very serious component to training. It is necessary to actually know if you can do what you believe you are being trained to do.
And nothing I do is for show. The XMA type thing you are describing is not martial arts; it's a dance routine. No one arguing with you is involved with that nonsense as far as i know. Of course flashy techniques are unreliable, but no one is talking about flashy techniques. You have no actual point here because you are arguing against a strawman.

Mz1

"My point has always been that this technique is highly risky, yields less reward as opposed to elbowing or punching them in the temple at this position and therefore, a waste of time. This is what the early UFC showed us when it pitted TMA vs. TMA.Early UFC's weeded out all of these flashy ninja strikes and dispelled their validity in a real fight. And UFC 1-4 allowed all strikes including those to the groin, throat, eyes, etc. Only eye gouging, fish-hooking and biting were not allowed, but did NOT disqualify a fighter. They were only fined $1000 per incident....therefore could still win a fight through biting or such. The total purse was around $60,000 for that day, so that's at least 60 incidents of being able to use eye gouges or biting and break even." 

In sparring and competition one takes less risks than they do in SD or a fight that potentially could lead to death. In a real SD situation where your well-being is threatened, proper action requires you to take a risk, not taking that risk for fear of injury or whatever results sloppy technique which results in failing the action attempted. I don't see how you feel the tactic I'm advocating is more risky than what you advocate here. It's quite the opposite actually, but I'll explain why down below.


Mz1

"The problem with your fighting theory is that it's just a theory. You've only practiced it through choreographed sparring and not when your opponent is trying to knock you out." 

Where to begin with this? Ok first, the "choreographed sparring" is called kata in Japanese martial arts. Yes you know what is about to happen (most of the time), but the attacker really should be trying to hurt you during the drill. It's has to have intent. Now after that, you do randori training which I should not have to explain why that is applicable to actual non-competitive fighting due to all your experience with Japanese Brazillian Jujutsuka and what not.

Mz1
"You complain that the cage may be too big, thus giving the MMA room to make distance, thus, you have it all planned out in your mind that this is how it must happen, in a tight space or something."

Are you kidding me? Sport matches have wide spaces without hazardous objects to be aware of. Even if you had to resort to physical SD in a large area, say a parking lot, there is still a ton of stuff that you need to be aware of like curbs, cars, other people, glass on the ground, yadda, yadda, yadda. If you are out and about and someone wants to hurt you (not fight you, but hurt you), it's likely there will be crap everywhere you have to account for. If you are confronted in a wide open space you have room to escape.
Or brag about how awesome you are and get cracked over the head with a beer bottle by his friends around the corner, whatever you prefer.

Mz1

"Are you trying to tell me that knocking someone out or choking them unconscious doesn't immediately end the threat whether it be in the cage/ring, street, prison, deserted island, etc.?"

No. You've missed the point. The threat in competition is a different kind of threat than in a non-competitive fight. In competition, the threat is being hit, knocked out, choked out, submitted, and "losing". In non-competitive fights the threat is more severe so the mentality of the situation is different. In non-competitive fighting the threats are serious injury, risk of being maimed or killed, legal action, and ahost of other things one does not consider in competition.
Of course a competitive fighter could be maimed or seriously injured in a fight, but the point is that he or she does not _expect_ it to be likely. Refs are involved to stop such things before they occur, so fighters don't enter the ring thinking they could be permanently disabled when they leave.


Mz1

"And the reason both fighters are going back and forth for 3-12 rounds, usually w/o anyone getting KO'ed or submitted and it goes to the judges' card is obviously because both opponents are trained fighters that are equally matched in both size and skill. These are 2 well tuned athletes (usually), not some SD guy vs. a loudmouth drunk at a bar. It's not easy to KO someone who's equally skilled."

The reason a sport fight last so long is because _it is actually a string of multiple confrontations broken up throughout the match_. Look at it, fighter's square off, size each other up, and bait for an opportunity to capitalize on. When someone sees a moment they quickly weigh the options of whether or not to go in. If they hesitate they have to wait for the next opportunity. If they go for it and it works they gain the upper hand until the other guy sees his chance to get out of it.
Now, stay with me here, cause this next part is crucial.
If the guy getting beaten on starts successfully defending a sport fighter will back off to avoid being countered and begin a new engagement. this is where the string of multple confrontations comes into play. they start the whole thing all over again. 
BUT! In non-competitive fighting, if they person being beaten on starts successfully defending the fight, the aggressor  will change his position and keep attacking anyway because he is committed to the attack. His goal is to hurt, injure, or kill and ceasing the attack is not an option for him if these are his goals. He does not think of idea that the guy will possibly counter, because as a rule people don't pick fights with other people who can beat them. Predators attack people who they believe are easy targets.
So in non-competitive fighting, the intial aggressor does not think of needing defense, or else he wouldn't have attacked in the first place. 
Even if two people fighting in a non-competitive manner are both highly skilled the fight doesn't last long. To think that a fight between highly skilled opponenets would last more than a fight between a few undisciplined goons is pure movie nonsense. It's actually the opposite. The more skilled someone is the more likely he or she is to recognize the instant he or she can take the initiative to attack. In this kind of fight, both opponents must enter in the fight with a sense of abandonment, or else they will hesitate and be struck or thrown or stabbed by the other person. At best you could expect maybe one possible counter (if they are both aware of each other's training backgrounds). If a physical confrontation lasts more than a few seconds then it is about ego, or no one involved has a clue what they are doing.
&#12288;

Mz1
"Yet you think that you can just walk up to a trained sports fighter like Mike Tyson and poke him in the eyes?"

I know this is a tounge in cheek type of statement and meant to be rhetorical, but I'm goign to answer it anyway. So, honestly? It depends how I go about it. If he observes me as a threat then, no, I'm probably going to be eating my own teeth if I just up an try to gouge his eyes.
But if I could set it up properly, then sure. He may be a skilled boxer and I'd be a fool to meet him in a boxing ring, but invincible he aint. No one is unbeatable. The best warrior in the world could be felled by a bumbling idiot if the circumstances were right. Martial training is about stacking the odds as best you can in your favor. So, yes. i could do it if I approached it tactically. 
I can't wait to see if you turn this into a misrepresentation of me thinking I could "beat up" Mike Tyson.



Mz1
"Put any toughguy on the streets into the cage/ring vs. a real fighter and it's usually going to be a bloodbath. UFC 1-4 already proved that TMA got destroyed pretty handily, which birthed the new generation of MMA."

I doubt it would be a bloodbath. Some blood? Sure, but no ref is going to let someone get majorly injured. You see, there are things called rules. Because of these rules, anyone not familiar with the competitive fighting scene is going to lose (as long as they play by those rules).
Now I'm not saying MMA guys can't break rules or don't break rules or can't win in a "no holds barred" type of thing. What I'm saying is that when you train for a particular environment, you tend to think in terms of that environment. You see, all martial training is designed with a particular environment. Most koryu don't have a lot of groundfighting, because they would sooner stab you to death once on the ground. Silat has a lot of really low postures, because the ground in their area is very slippery and rocky a lot of the time and they expect to fall at some point. MMA as it is now is the accumulation of what aspects of TMA work best within the confines of the rules. None of them are intrinsically better than the others, they aim to be applicable for the environement in which they were created.

&#12288;
Mz1
"Obviously you've never fought in the ring/cage, which is why you have no idea what it feels like. You just read this from some book or website and assume it's true."

I believe I mentioned above that my brother is a cage fighter. He loves MMA. Do you really think that as a martial artist i wouldn't be interested in testing things out with him or his gym mates? I've trained with a quite a few MMA fighters actually, so yeah, kind of blows your little theory out the window.
There is a major difference between competitive and non-cometitive fighting.


Mz1
 "We get toughguys coming into our gym once in a while. They think they know how to fight. After a few months of training them proper techniques, we let them spar, supposedly at around 30-40% power. I go light but don't let them hit me, most of the time they can't even touch my face. They usually get frustrated and go crazy with full powered, haymaker swings, one after the other like in streetfights....full speed until they gas out....while all I do is play with them by jabbing and circling. It's like playing with a little kid."

Cool story. What is your point? 

Mz1

"You may have been in 1-5 street fights or self defense situations in your life. But I'm going to bet 1-2. Yet you're going to base everything on just these few incidents w/o admitting to yourself that you were probably facing untrained street slobs who thought they were tough. While I train by punching & kicking guys almost 3-4x per week, religiously. Who do you think is going to be more calm & collected with more reflex, endurance, power, precision, etc...including being able to take a punch(es) to the face, during a streetfight?"

You are right that my personal experiences are not the alpha and omega of all things SD. What I do know is that my experiences with SD are like the experiences of others who had success, and those who face the experiences I'm talking about tend to agree with me.
One is never in a position to know if they are facing someone with training or experience. Sure you might pick up on few signals, but in the end it doesn't matter as the nature of the fight plays out the same. There is still a primary agressor who intiated the fight, and that person does not stop unless they get what the wanted or you make it too costly for them and they leave, or you put them down.
When it comes to be calm and collected during a fight, you really have no idea what I've had to do to earn my rank in my organization. Once you overcome the very real possibility of being seriously maimed or killed, stuff tends to not bother you as much anymore.

&#12288;
Mz1
"If you think of attacking you cannotdefend." -Himura Kenshin

"This is wrong. It's called points of defense being employed while attacking."


"If you thinking of defending you cannot attack." -Himura Kenshin

"Wrong again. What do you think a counter is?"

See the above about what goes on in the attackers mindset in a non-competitive fight. Properly trained martial artists do not think of defending when moving to attack. It is proper to do the action you want to do without concern of what the other person will do in response. This is 100% commitment to finishing the technique. It is necessary for victory; without this committment the technique fails. If the opponent responds by trying to attack at the same time or counter in some way, you shouldn't worry about it. If you are properly trained you will naturally respond to the change and adjust accordingly without being thrown off balance mentally because they did something unexpected. You don't move to attack while thinking about how you are going to react to the way he reacts to your reaction of him attacking you in the first place.
Likewise, if one thinks only of defense he or she cannot take the initiative to attack as that person will be preoccupied with what the attacker is doing. If you only think about how to respond to the attacker, then you are at serious risk of being baited into a worse position. It is always better to act than react.
Ideally one doesn't think too much of either attack or defense. The defensive movements should just happen if you train properly, and the attacking movements whould not be something intricate you've planned out but rather a guidline to what you hope to accomplish overall (example: knock him down and escape).

A counter is a long table-like structure you put a microwave and toaster over on. It may or may not have a sink or cabinets.
Wait. You meant counter_ attack_ right? As in the combative movement of attacking after you successfully defend? You don't think about the defending action here, you think about the attacking one. To successfully counter something you must instantly react appropriately to what is happening, therefore there is no time to think about it. Hence the statement "if you think about defending you cannot attack". If you focus on thinking about how to stop the guy from hitting or grabbing you, you do not take the initiative and will miss crucial moments where you could win the fight. Anytime anyone successfully counter attacks it is because they did not think about the action and instead just recognized the appropriate action the moment it presented itself because of training. If you are thinking during the fight, you are behind. It is the time to act, not think about it.


Mz1
"Your "real fights" are usually just 2 sloppy guys on the streets gassing out and then quitting. Somethings the guy winning doesn't allow you to leave and keeps pummeling you, what then?"

Most "real fights" are between untrained individuals. But a lack of training does not mean a lack of experience.
If the guy winning just wants to keep beating you, I'd hope you'd keep trying to defend yourself. If you aren't able to, you're screwed.


Mz1
"Yeah, it's much easier to beat up some untrained slob on the street, which is usually the case. I've had a giant buck knife pulled on me as well as guns. Is that good enough for you?"

Not really, because I think you're lying. 

&#12288;
Mz1
"The last street fight I was in, it was just pure comedy. I wished someone got it on video. I was just playing with this guy using jabs, teeps and footwork while letting him throw all out crazy punches until he gassed out (plus I probably caught him in the solar plexus with that last teep). I didn't even want to hurt him. Most other street altercations was just screaming and cussing."

If you didn't want to hurt him, you should have left. The face you were able to keep him at bay with jabs proves he wasn't intent on causing you serious harm. If he was, he would have eaten the punch and continued forward anyway just to see you damaged. This  is not SD and is an example of the "monkey dance" where two people try to show dominace over each other. Legally you were probably committing battery and would not have been viewed as justified in your actions. This just screams ego maniac. 


Mz1
"So basically you're admitting that you really don't spar hard, maybe at all. This is nothing unusual. MA'ists do this often. At least those that are fighters. I'm not asking you to go rip off a school's sign, barge into their class and throw their school sign at the feet of the master and step on it....like in the movies."

How is my statement about the idiocy of challenging other dojo or gyms to a fight an admission of not training hard? This argument is not connected in anyway to what I actually said and is a blatant and rather desprate attempt by you to discredit me by strawmaning the argument.
For the record. I don't spar. Sparring is for competition. I pressure test. They would look kind of the same to you from your perspective I bet, but the purposes are really quite different as sparring is for sport purposes and pressure testing is non-competitive.


Mz1
"On the streets, it will be very well placed punches that are carefully picked. But I'm more of a jab spammer then knees and elbow guy."

This statement is more evidence that you've never been seriously threatened before and engage soley in the monkey dance.



Mz1
"Well it's a true statement. Hapikido guys aren't known for their hands just as Boxers aren't known for their kicks. Maybe you're way too sensitive" 

Except for, ya know, all those joint manipulations they do. But as an expert, I'm sure you left that part out on purpose.



Mz1
"So an MMA fighter knocking their opponent out in the street or battelfield using his MMA skills.... isn't good enough for this MMA fighter to "survive, escape, arrest (nor) kill" his opponent?"


Read the damn comment correctly. What I said was that a competitive fighter CAN do those things if he adjusts what he learned in training to the new environment. He or she has the basic skills, if he or she can make the proper adjustmusts _because fighting for your life is nothing like fighting for a title_. Adjustments must be made.



Mz1
"I think you go through choreographed sparring and maybe light sparring but never hard sparring to test out your skills and what you think works.....so no one is really in danger of getting punched or kicked at 80-100% power in the face, body, legs, etc. If this is true, then I think that your training is highly unrealistic and doesn't prepare you for the streets nor the battlefield as well as MMA would."

It's a good thing it's not true then!
Pressure testing accounts for quite a bit of what I do and serious protective gear is required for it. It is a necessary part of training to make sure you can actually do what you think you can do.

Mz1
"I already told you, if you've managed to step to the side of your opponent, why not elbow them with an elbow to the temple rather than this n-strike to the elbow?"

So now I get to explain again why you don't understand the idea and jsut how off base you are about the purpose of the tactic.
First off, you don't step to the side. I said that already in a previous post. You move forward at 45 degrees. Moving this way toward the desired arm puts you a position for the opponent to try and hit or grab you with that arm as attacking with the other arm would require a turning movement to reorient them to your position.
You can't elbow them in the temple, because you wouldn't be close enough for that during the inital movement. You could hit them with your fist, but that's not the point of doing the movement.
The point of striking the elbow area is that it is a _set up to your desired technique_. When attempting this action there are a few likely scenarios that you account for. 1. The attacker punched and you are moving to evade the strike. 2. You move first, and the attacker strikes out with the limb because you entered his space. 3. You move first and the opponent hesitates and doesn't throw the punch.

Here is how, if you are trained properly in distance, timing, angling, and targeting you can do _nearly_ _the exact same action_ without worrying which action (or lack thereof) the opponent has chosen:

1. As the opponent punches you move forward 45 degrees and evade the hit while simultaniously striking the back his arm around the elbow area and punching through the arm in a manner that takes it across his body, causing him to twist his spine. You now have his back.
2. As you move forward, the opponent attacks out of a need to protect his space. You do the same thing as #1 and end up at his back.
3. As you move forward like above at the moment in time where you catch the opponent in a state of hesitation, you punch the area around the back of his elbow from it's resting position across his body. You now have his back.
I'm sure you don't think this will work, and nothing I say will change your narrow view of the world. I'm going to explain why it works though just in case anyone else is still reading my ramblings at this time.
Targeting the back of the elbow is a sound tactic for the purpose of moving to your opponent's back (or side if you prefer). The part of arm between the elbow and shoulder is what is being targeted. It can be struck accurately even in motion because it does not move much distance between its restng state and the extension from punching or grabbing. So with training, you can reliable judge where the target will be at any given time
You strike nerves yes, but pain and numbness are not the goal. Those are just bonuses. The goal is to punch through the arm moving it across the body and affect spinal alignment, which affects balance. If your opponent is fighting for balance he cannot fight you and this presents the opportunity for continued striking or grappling.
You don't just hit him in the head, because every idiot protects their head in a fight. Those that don't, don't fight for very long. People expect their head to be targeted in the middle of a fight, so they take actions to protect it such as blocking with the arm or bobbing and evasive manuvers. No one protects the elbow, because no one thinks their elbow is a target. So you attack it, draw their attention to it and use that as your set up for your desired technique whether that be a throw, choke, or another strike to a more vital area.
It's very simple, but requires dedicated practice. It's not something someone can do right away, but once you get the footwork and timing right, it's very reliable.
&#12288;

Sorry for such a long post everyone, but there has just been so much ignorance here.


----------



## Cyriacus

Himura Kenshin said:


> Mz1
> "Put any toughguy on the streets into the cage/ring vs. a real fighter and it's usually going to be a bloodbath. UFC 1-4 already proved that TMA got destroyed pretty handily, which birthed the new generation of MMA."
> 
> I doubt it would be a bloodbath. Some blood? Sure, but no ref is going to let someone get majorly injured. You see, there are things called rules. Because of these rules, anyone not familiar with the competitive fighting scene is going to lose (as long as they play by those rules).
> Now I'm not saying MMA guys can't break rules or don't break rules or can't win in a "no holds barred" type of thing. What I'm saying is that when you train for a particular environment, you tend to think in terms of that environment. You see, all martial training is designed with a particular environment. Most koryu don't have a lot of groundfighting, because they would sooner stab you to death once on the ground. Silat has a lot of really low postures, because the ground in their area is very slippery and rocky a lot of the time and they expect to fall at some point. MMA as it is now is the accumulation of what aspects of TMA work best within the confines of the rules. None of them are intrinsically better than the others, they aim to be applicable for the environement in which they were created.



The better retort You could have used on mz1 here:
Look at the brackets.
UFC 1:
Gordeau TKOs Teila Tuli. Savate VS Sumo
Kevin Rosier TKOs Zane Frazier. Kickboxing VS Kickboxing
Royce Gracie Submits Art Zimmerson.  BJJ VS Boxing
Ken Shamrock Submits Patrick Smith. Wrestling VS Taekwondo
Gerard Gordeau Submits Kevin Rosier. Savate VS Kickboxing
Royce Gracie Submits Ken Shamrock. BJJ VS Wrestling
Royce Gracie Submits Gerard Gordeau. BJJ VS Savate

So far, all thats happened is that ONE TMA guy lost one fight, and because Gracie beat Shamrock, BJJ made a name for itself instead of Wrestling in the MMA scene.

UFC 2:
Patrick Smith, a practitioner of Taekwondo, Hapkido, Kenpo Karate, and Tang Soo Do practitioner, beat Ray Wizard, Scott Morris, and Johnny Rhodes, then got submitted by Gracie *in the finals*.
Yeah, TMA really got put in its place there. Stupid TMAs, making it to the finals, while BJJ continued getting popular because ground games werent as much of a thing yet.

Before i continue, is BJJ a TMA? I ask, because Taekwondo is a TMA, and it was only founded in the 50s. It was founded on a few traditional styles, and BJJ was build off Kodokan Judo.

UFC 3:
A Ninjutsu guy by the name of Steve Jennum won UFC 3.
Granted, that was due to a cluster of injuries and backouts, but im still not seeing TMAs getting whooped.
The other guy who made it to the finals, Harold Howard, was a Jujutsu and Goju Ryu Karate guy. He also did a few other TMAs.

UFC 4:
Gracie submits Ron van Clief, Karateka.
Gracie submits Keith Hackney, a Kenpo and Taekwondo fighter.
Gracie submits Dan Severn, a Wrestler.
Interestingly, Keith Hackney submitted Joe Son, a Joe Son Do fighter, to get to fight Gracie.
And Dan Severn went through two guys whos styles arent too clear to get to the final. So far, still no whooping. Only Gracie submitting people left and right because His approach was still very new to Them.

So where, exactly, was TMA destroyed, and how do You retort to Me saying that BJJ is just as much a TMA as anything else is, should You brand it as such? It has belts, uniforms, and its used in competitions.


----------



## oaktree

In a street fight there are no rules the other Guy
Is trying to kill you.
In sport martial arts the object is to win.
In a street fight no one to break up the fight, no corner
Man to throw in the towel, ni time limit, no rest.
In a street fight you may fight someone bigger,faster then you.
If you are sick or broke your hand no reschedule fight.
Your opponent may carry a weapon and as soon as you
Shoot into his legs he stabs you in the kidney.
In a street fight multiple attacker, curbs and bricks can be easily
Used against you as you grapple for that arm bar.
In real life encounters you are often robbery from behind.
If you are not training for this type of scenarios and more focused
on rules in a ring your not training for self defense in a street encounter.


----------



## Tez3

_"Anyone with legitimate talent doesn&#8217;t need to tarnish others to market himself_"
~ Ross Enamait


----------



## Gnarlie

elder999 said:


> Going to weigh in here, against my better judgement. Im not so sure that Mz1 isnt one of young Alexs (Zenjaels) alters-like his ex-girlfriend, just another sliver of his multiple personality disorder-or, at least, part of his personality disorder. What leads me to this? Posts like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Since Ive trained in BJJ a little, but trained in judo since I was 11, and Ive also trained on more than one occasion with Danzan Ryu jujutsu folks, and trained in jujutsu myself, I have to say that, frankly, I dont see how you could be trained by Japanese Judokas, or in Danzan ryu jujutsu, and *not* have some idea of what randori means, _since both arts use the term._
> 
> Hell, in this context, Im not so sure that Kano didnt _invent_ the term. :lfao:
> 
> Anyway....all this noise about training methodologies, gloves or not, gear or not, contact or not, MMA or not, is just that: _*noise*_, and Im going to impart the one tip that *I* think counts the most, in any context-strategy or tactics, training methodology, and high vs. low vs. dont use the same technique more than five times be damned. BTW, Zenjael, Five? _Really?? _Whered ya come up with that one? If you can hit a guy with five uppercuts in a row, go ahead and do so-its probably three too many if the first two landed, anyway...:lfao:
> 
> First, a couple of stories.
> 
> When I was a 14 year old kid in boarding school, I had a friend whose younger sister-all of 11 or 12-was really, really, *really* hip for her age. They lived in Manhattan, and at the age of 11, she successfully fended off a mugging/attempted rape. How ? Well, a guy grabbed her and tried to drag her into a basement entry below the sidewalk-you can picture the kind-and she instantly froze up and said, _Oh God. *Please* dont let me kill again._
> He must have believed her, because the guy let go of her, and away she ran. :lfao:
> 
> Yet another, that some here have probably heard. Since its not my story, Ill leave the names and particulars out. A pretty well known traditional martial arts instructor in Colorado was hosting his teacher from Japan for some seminars. His teacher-at that point a fairly elderly individual-was challenged to resist _the awesome ground and pound skills_  of an MMA fighter at the seminar. His teacher acquiesced, and when the young man took him down, proceeded to choke him out with the lace hed surreptitiously removed from his shoe. :lfao:
> 
> And, of course, there are countless stories of trained and untrained people disarming gunmen, or people with knives, or fighting off superior numbers-of late, theres the story of the Gurkha on the train.....
> 
> Bottom line, though, what it comes down to:
> 
> What am I willing to do? _Whatever it takes._
> 
> Will I prevail? _I *will*, or die trying_
> 
> Call it a combination of resolve and intent, or call it mindset-call it whatever you like, but if these qualities arent trained and developed, then all the strategy, tactics, skills and attributes developed by whatever sort of training one is engaged in, traditional or otherwise, is just dancing. (BTW, for another tip, ala Mr. Lawsons post, nothing beats dancing-as in ballroom dancing: cha-cha, waltz, two step, foxtrot, etc.-for establishing some critical movement skills needed for hand to hand combat.)
> 
> When I was mugged all those years ago on the subway, well, Id gotten my pen ready as soon as I saw those young men. Fact is, in my mind, Id killed all three of them of a couple of times before they made their move. Sure, I handed over my Rolex, and my throwdown wallet (a New York necessity, really) but when they told that kid to cut me, I put my pen in his neck, several times. So many things stick out from that incident for me, but the one that I have carried since then is the way his companions flinched when I looked at them, after sticking the pen in his neck the second or third time, and the way they ran. Ive never been able to do it in the mirror and see for myself, but over the years Ive given people the look, *that* look, and its never failed me. If I give that look (and I can feel it on my face, I just don't know what it looks like-except maybe that I want to kill someone) and say, "Sit down and shut up," well, that's usually what people do. If I don't say anything and just hit them, they pretty much go down. If they've come at me with bad intent, and there's any talking involved, they usually change their minds......if they have any sense, I guess. :lol:
> 
> Attitude. Intention. Resolve.
> 
> Mindset. It's what I mean when I say "Keep your knife sharp."
> 
> Sure, technique and strategy are important-thats why Id practiced using the pen, and why Id slipped it into my sleeve as soon as those boys showed up on the platform-but mindset carries the day, whether its in the dojo, in a tournament, full contact or points, MMA or life and death on the streets.



Elder, I've never heard you speak but I can't help it, in my head you sound like Morgan Freeman.  It's the way you write...please take that as a compliment.

Regarding the rest of the thread, I'm lost. What were people's tips?

Gnarlie


----------



## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> Elder, I've never heard you speak but I can't help it, in my head you sound like Morgan Freeman. It's the way you write...please take that as a compliment.
> 
> Regarding the rest of the thread, I'm lost. What were people's tips?
> 
> Gnarlie



Aha, you too eh!

The tips got lost when it turned into an MMA v TMA thread, which is such a shame. I th9ught that on here at least we'd seen the last of this type of argument. I love both and I hate it when someone comes on slagging off one or the other, I thought that we were better than that here. We can take something from everything, sayng one is better than the other is a nonsense and it's especially so when someone says he's totally right and everyone else is basically rubbish.
Be nice if we got back to tips though.


----------



## Mz1

Flying Crane said:


> well yes, people who LIKE to fight would be best served in a school that makes competition a big focus.  Not everyone who trains martial arts likes to fight, including those who can defend themselves quite well.  For most people, self defense would be a necessary evil and not something to be enjoyed, but done if circumstances make it necessary.



I agree with this. Martial Arts can also be for health, hobby, spirituality, occupation, occupational enhancement, Asian fetishes, etc.  ALL valid. It's merely a tool to some and a lifestyle to others. 

My main argument is that, while training Self Defense and never sparring for KO's nor fighting can still be effective when the extreme rare case of a real life SD situation calls for its use.....training as a fighter and actually sparring & fighting full contact, is much better. But much more risk for injuries.



> and what you may think of other kinds of drills, well, honestly I don't care.  The fact that you don't put much stock in them really doesn't affect me, and you are welcome to believe what you want.



That's fine. We also do these drills. We call them constructive sparring. It's just choreographed techniques sparring.


----------



## Mz1

Xue Sheng said:


> Yup, pretty much the response I expected..... Condescension, missing the point, making assumptions, arrogance.... standard arm chair MMAist stuff..... you are not what you are claiming are you.. and you are pretty young too aren't you..... if you were what you claimed you would not feel the need to respond the way you do.. but eventually you will go away just like those that came before you with the same exact silliness so continuing this would be a waste of my time....... you also did not succeed at making me angry either, which I am fairly certain was your goal in order to continue your ridiculousness.... have a nice day youngster
> 
> My opinion of Mz1 and this entire thread he has here
> 
> :trollsign




Just because I refuted your arguments, you resort to playing the troll-card? Typical. 

I'm open to meet up with anyone in the Wash DC area to train and spar.

Send me a PM bro.


----------



## Mz1

bluewaveschool said:


> Btw, you did realize I was mocking you earlier, right?



The irony here is that you thought that I was serious in thanking you. Ironic and humorous at the same time. You're the guy at parties who  explains his own bad jokes because  no one laughed and you think no one got it right?  Later bro.


----------



## Tez3

Mz1 said:


> I agree with this. Martial Arts can also be for health, hobby, spirituality, occupation, occupational enhancement, Asian fetishes, etc. ALL valid. It's merely a tool to some and a lifestyle to others.
> 
> My main argument is that, while training Self Defense and never sparring for KO's nor fighting can still be effective when the extreme rare case of a real life SD situation calls for its use.....training as a fighter and actually sparring & fighting full contact, is much better. But much more risk for injuries.
> 
> 
> 
> That's fine. We also do these drills. We call them constructive sparring. It's just choreographed techniques sparring.



Asian fetishes?


----------



## Mz1

elder999 said:


> Going to weigh in here, against my better judgement. Im not so sure that Mz1 isnt one of young Alexs (Zenjaels) alters-like his ex-girlfriend, just another sliver of his multiple personality disorder-or, at least, part of his personality disorder. What leads me to this? Posts like this:



Not sure who Alex Zenjael is, but it's obvious that he had such a bad effect on you....so I'll give you a break and just ignore the rest of your long post. Don't want to be responsible for triggering your paranoia, worse than it currently is.


----------



## Mz1

Himura Kenshin said:


> Ok, let's do this thing.
> 
> edit: apparently the quote feature is beyond my mortal abilities and I keep screwing it up. So Mz1's comments are in red
> 
> Mz1
> "Show me where I said that I'd always assume someone on the street to automatically be an untrained slob. You completely made this up."
> 
> "Again? Show me where I said this, otherwise it's the second time that you made up lies."
> 
> Ok here's an example of why I don't think you understand how to effectively argue something. Originally you made some comment around the lines of "that might work against an untrained/drunken slob, but not someone trained."
> Those of us who commented on it were basically saying, "we treat every opponent as competent and dangerous"; somehow that go turned around into you thinking we were accusing you of thinking you assume the attacker is incompetent. That's not what we were saying. We are saying (or at least I am anyway) that any skill we practice is meant to work against someone actively trying to hurt you and you always assume that person is competent. So no one is accusing you of saying anything about assuming the opposite. Not quite sure how you picked that out honestly.
> 
> Mz1
> "How is trying to knock someone out in the cage/ring, not a real fight?"
> 
> "Real fight" may be a poor choice of words then. What I am talking about is a non-competitive fight, i.e. a fight where one does not try to just defeat their opponent but seriously hurt him or her.
> &#12288;
> 
> Mz1
> "You obviously have not fought anyone trained nor experienced then because your last sentence just tells me that you fought these untrained slobs that I was talking about. And it's not even correct. You just described one type of fighting style, counterfighting. Not all "Cagey Guys" are counterfighters."
> 
> Again my use of the term "Cagey" is meant to describe the mentality found in competitive fighting. It's a necessary mentality for the sport, but doesn't work well in most SD situations. The "Cagey" mentality is not ment to be inflammatory towards cage fighters; hell my brother is a cage fighter. The idea is that when you are competing, whether in the ring, cage, or a bar cause the person is too egocentric to just leave, a "cagey" fighter looks to gauge his opponent to provoke action he can counter. It's not a bad thing in competition, but SD doesn't really apply here because if the guy is bobbing and weaving then I'm leaving. If there is no attack and the guy is just waiting for you to come fight with him then it is not self-defense. There is a lack of intent to commit serious harm.
> 
> 
> Mz1
> "I've only trained in BJJ (by Japanese Judokas) and Danzan Ryu Jujutsu so how could I possibly know what "randori" means. And years of MA traditions doesn't automatically makes it effective. Some of it is for show, like a 540 degrees tornado kick or something. I'm sure it can hurt someone, but go ahead, try it in a real fight. This is the point."
> 
> If you know about randori, then you know TMA have methods for pressure testing their skills. Now, not all schools do this and I think it is a very serious component to training. It is necessary to actually know if you can do what you believe you are being trained to do.
> And nothing I do is for show. The XMA type thing you are describing is not martial arts; it's a dance routine. No one arguing with you is involved with that nonsense as far as i know. Of course flashy techniques are unreliable, but no one is talking about flashy techniques. You have no actual point here because you are arguing against a strawman.
> 
> Mz1
> 
> "My point has always been that this technique is highly risky, yields less reward as opposed to elbowing or punching them in the temple at this position and therefore, a waste of time. This is what the early UFC showed us when it pitted TMA vs. TMA.Early UFC's weeded out all of these flashy ninja strikes and dispelled their validity in a real fight. And UFC 1-4 allowed all strikes including those to the groin, throat, eyes, etc. Only eye gouging, fish-hooking and biting were not allowed, but did NOT disqualify a fighter. They were only fined $1000 per incident....therefore could still win a fight through biting or such. The total purse was around $60,000 for that day, so that's at least 60 incidents of being able to use eye gouges or biting and break even."
> 
> In sparring and competition one takes less risks than they do in SD or a fight that potentially could lead to death. In a real SD situation where your well-being is threatened, proper action requires you to take a risk, not taking that risk for fear of injury or whatever results sloppy technique which results in failing the action attempted. I don't see how you feel the tactic I'm advocating is more risky than what you advocate here. It's quite the opposite actually, but I'll explain why down below.
> 
> 
> Mz1
> 
> "The problem with your fighting theory is that it's just a theory. You've only practiced it through choreographed sparring and not when your opponent is trying to knock you out."
> 
> Where to begin with this? Ok first, the "choreographed sparring" is called kata in Japanese martial arts. Yes you know what is about to happen (most of the time), but the attacker really should be trying to hurt you during the drill. It's has to have intent. Now after that, you do randori training which I should not have to explain why that is applicable to actual non-competitive fighting due to all your experience with Japanese Brazillian Jujutsuka and what not.
> 
> Mz1
> "You complain that the cage may be too big, thus giving the MMA room to make distance, thus, you have it all planned out in your mind that this is how it must happen, in a tight space or something."
> 
> Are you kidding me? Sport matches have wide spaces without hazardous objects to be aware of. Even if you had to resort to physical SD in a large area, say a parking lot, there is still a ton of stuff that you need to be aware of like curbs, cars, other people, glass on the ground, yadda, yadda, yadda. If you are out and about and someone wants to hurt you (not fight you, but hurt you), it's likely there will be crap everywhere you have to account for. If you are confronted in a wide open space you have room to escape.
> Or brag about how awesome you are and get cracked over the head with a beer bottle by his friends around the corner, whatever you prefer.
> 
> Mz1
> 
> "Are you trying to tell me that knocking someone out or choking them unconscious doesn't immediately end the threat whether it be in the cage/ring, street, prison, deserted island, etc.?"
> 
> No. You've missed the point. The threat in competition is a different kind of threat than in a non-competitive fight. In competition, the threat is being hit, knocked out, choked out, submitted, and "losing". In non-competitive fights the threat is more severe so the mentality of the situation is different. In non-competitive fighting the threats are serious injury, risk of being maimed or killed, legal action, and ahost of other things one does not consider in competition.
> Of course a competitive fighter could be maimed or seriously injured in a fight, but the point is that he or she does not _expect_ it to be likely. Refs are involved to stop such things before they occur, so fighters don't enter the ring thinking they could be permanently disabled when they leave.
> 
> 
> Mz1
> 
> "And the reason both fighters are going back and forth for 3-12 rounds, usually w/o anyone getting KO'ed or submitted and it goes to the judges' card is obviously because both opponents are trained fighters that are equally matched in both size and skill. These are 2 well tuned athletes (usually), not some SD guy vs. a loudmouth drunk at a bar. It's not easy to KO someone who's equally skilled."
> 
> The reason a sport fight last so long is because _it is actually a string of multiple confrontations broken up throughout the match_. Look at it, fighter's square off, size each other up, and bait for an opportunity to capitalize on. When someone sees a moment they quickly weigh the options of whether or not to go in. If they hesitate they have to wait for the next opportunity. If they go for it and it works they gain the upper hand until the other guy sees his chance to get out of it.
> Now, stay with me here, cause this next part is crucial.
> If the guy getting beaten on starts successfully defending a sport fighter will back off to avoid being countered and begin a new engagement. this is where the string of multple confrontations comes into play. they start the whole thing all over again.
> BUT! In non-competitive fighting, if they person being beaten on starts successfully defending the fight, the aggressor  will change his position and keep attacking anyway because he is committed to the attack. His goal is to hurt, injure, or kill and ceasing the attack is not an option for him if these are his goals. He does not think of idea that the guy will possibly counter, because as a rule people don't pick fights with other people who can beat them. Predators attack people who they believe are easy targets.
> So in non-competitive fighting, the intial aggressor does not think of needing defense, or else he wouldn't have attacked in the first place.
> Even if two people fighting in a non-competitive manner are both highly skilled the fight doesn't last long. To think that a fight between highly skilled opponenets would last more than a fight between a few undisciplined goons is pure movie nonsense. It's actually the opposite. The more skilled someone is the more likely he or she is to recognize the instant he or she can take the initiative to attack. In this kind of fight, both opponents must enter in the fight with a sense of abandonment, or else they will hesitate and be struck or thrown or stabbed by the other person. At best you could expect maybe one possible counter (if they are both aware of each other's training backgrounds). If a physical confrontation lasts more than a few seconds then it is about ego, or no one involved has a clue what they are doing.
> &#12288;
> 
> Mz1
> "Yet you think that you can just walk up to a trained sports fighter like Mike Tyson and poke him in the eyes?"
> 
> I know this is a tounge in cheek type of statement and meant to be rhetorical, but I'm goign to answer it anyway. So, honestly? It depends how I go about it. If he observes me as a threat then, no, I'm probably going to be eating my own teeth if I just up an try to gouge his eyes.
> But if I could set it up properly, then sure. He may be a skilled boxer and I'd be a fool to meet him in a boxing ring, but invincible he aint. No one is unbeatable. The best warrior in the world could be felled by a bumbling idiot if the circumstances were right. Martial training is about stacking the odds as best you can in your favor. So, yes. i could do it if I approached it tactically.
> I can't wait to see if you turn this into a misrepresentation of me thinking I could "beat up" Mike Tyson.
> 
> 
> 
> Mz1
> "Put any toughguy on the streets into the cage/ring vs. a real fighter and it's usually going to be a bloodbath. UFC 1-4 already proved that TMA got destroyed pretty handily, which birthed the new generation of MMA."
> 
> I doubt it would be a bloodbath. Some blood? Sure, but no ref is going to let someone get majorly injured. You see, there are things called rules. Because of these rules, anyone not familiar with the competitive fighting scene is going to lose (as long as they play by those rules).
> Now I'm not saying MMA guys can't break rules or don't break rules or can't win in a "no holds barred" type of thing. What I'm saying is that when you train for a particular environment, you tend to think in terms of that environment. You see, all martial training is designed with a particular environment. Most koryu don't have a lot of groundfighting, because they would sooner stab you to death once on the ground. Silat has a lot of really low postures, because the ground in their area is very slippery and rocky a lot of the time and they expect to fall at some point. MMA as it is now is the accumulation of what aspects of TMA work best within the confines of the rules. None of them are intrinsically better than the others, they aim to be applicable for the environement in which they were created.
> 
> &#12288;
> Mz1
> "Obviously you've never fought in the ring/cage, which is why you have no idea what it feels like. You just read this from some book or website and assume it's true."
> 
> I believe I mentioned above that my brother is a cage fighter. He loves MMA. Do you really think that as a martial artist i wouldn't be interested in testing things out with him or his gym mates? I've trained with a quite a few MMA fighters actually, so yeah, kind of blows your little theory out the window.
> There is a major difference between competitive and non-cometitive fighting.
> 
> 
> Mz1
> "We get toughguys coming into our gym once in a while. They think they know how to fight. After a few months of training them proper techniques, we let them spar, supposedly at around 30-40% power. I go light but don't let them hit me, most of the time they can't even touch my face. They usually get frustrated and go crazy with full powered, haymaker swings, one after the other like in streetfights....full speed until they gas out....while all I do is play with them by jabbing and circling. It's like playing with a little kid."
> 
> Cool story. What is your point?
> 
> Mz1
> 
> "You may have been in 1-5 street fights or self defense situations in your life. But I'm going to bet 1-2. Yet you're going to base everything on just these few incidents w/o admitting to yourself that you were probably facing untrained street slobs who thought they were tough. While I train by punching & kicking guys almost 3-4x per week, religiously. Who do you think is going to be more calm & collected with more reflex, endurance, power, precision, etc...including being able to take a punch(es) to the face, during a streetfight?"
> 
> You are right that my personal experiences are not the alpha and omega of all things SD. What I do know is that my experiences with SD are like the experiences of others who had success, and those who face the experiences I'm talking about tend to agree with me.
> One is never in a position to know if they are facing someone with training or experience. Sure you might pick up on few signals, but in the end it doesn't matter as the nature of the fight plays out the same. There is still a primary agressor who intiated the fight, and that person does not stop unless they get what the wanted or you make it too costly for them and they leave, or you put them down.
> When it comes to be calm and collected during a fight, you really have no idea what I've had to do to earn my rank in my organization. Once you overcome the very real possibility of being seriously maimed or killed, stuff tends to not bother you as much anymore.
> 
> &#12288;
> Mz1
> "If you think of attacking you cannotdefend." -Himura Kenshin
> 
> "This is wrong. It's called points of defense being employed while attacking."
> 
> 
> "If you thinking of defending you cannot attack." -Himura Kenshin
> 
> "Wrong again. What do you think a counter is?"
> 
> See the above about what goes on in the attackers mindset in a non-competitive fight. Properly trained martial artists do not think of defending when moving to attack. It is proper to do the action you want to do without concern of what the other person will do in response. This is 100% commitment to finishing the technique. It is necessary for victory; without this committment the technique fails. If the opponent responds by trying to attack at the same time or counter in some way, you shouldn't worry about it. If you are properly trained you will naturally respond to the change and adjust accordingly without being thrown off balance mentally because they did something unexpected. You don't move to attack while thinking about how you are going to react to the way he reacts to your reaction of him attacking you in the first place.
> Likewise, if one thinks only of defense he or she cannot take the initiative to attack as that person will be preoccupied with what the attacker is doing. If you only think about how to respond to the attacker, then you are at serious risk of being baited into a worse position. It is always better to act than react.
> Ideally one doesn't think too much of either attack or defense. The defensive movements should just happen if you train properly, and the attacking movements whould not be something intricate you've planned out but rather a guidline to what you hope to accomplish overall (example: knock him down and escape).
> 
> A counter is a long table-like structure you put a microwave and toaster over on. It may or may not have a sink or cabinets.
> Wait. You meant counter_ attack_ right? As in the combative movement of attacking after you successfully defend? You don't think about the defending action here, you think about the attacking one. To successfully counter something you must instantly react appropriately to what is happening, therefore there is no time to think about it. Hence the statement "if you think about defending you cannot attack". If you focus on thinking about how to stop the guy from hitting or grabbing you, you do not take the initiative and will miss crucial moments where you could win the fight. Anytime anyone successfully counter attacks it is because they did not think about the action and instead just recognized the appropriate action the moment it presented itself because of training. If you are thinking during the fight, you are behind. It is the time to act, not think about it.
> 
> 
> Mz1
> "Your "real fights" are usually just 2 sloppy guys on the streets gassing out and then quitting. Somethings the guy winning doesn't allow you to leave and keeps pummeling you, what then?"
> 
> Most "real fights" are between untrained individuals. But a lack of training does not mean a lack of experience.
> If the guy winning just wants to keep beating you, I'd hope you'd keep trying to defend yourself. If you aren't able to, you're screwed.
> 
> 
> Mz1
> "Yeah, it's much easier to beat up some untrained slob on the street, which is usually the case. I've had a giant buck knife pulled on me as well as guns. Is that good enough for you?"
> 
> Not really, because I think you're lying.
> 
> &#12288;
> Mz1
> "The last street fight I was in, it was just pure comedy. I wished someone got it on video. I was just playing with this guy using jabs, teeps and footwork while letting him throw all out crazy punches until he gassed out (plus I probably caught him in the solar plexus with that last teep). I didn't even want to hurt him. Most other street altercations was just screaming and cussing."
> 
> If you didn't want to hurt him, you should have left. The face you were able to keep him at bay with jabs proves he wasn't intent on causing you serious harm. If he was, he would have eaten the punch and continued forward anyway just to see you damaged. This  is not SD and is an example of the "monkey dance" where two people try to show dominace over each other. Legally you were probably committing battery and would not have been viewed as justified in your actions. This just screams ego maniac.
> 
> 
> Mz1
> "So basically you're admitting that you really don't spar hard, maybe at all. This is nothing unusual. MA'ists do this often. At least those that are fighters. I'm not asking you to go rip off a school's sign, barge into their class and throw their school sign at the feet of the master and step on it....like in the movies."
> 
> How is my statement about the idiocy of challenging other dojo or gyms to a fight an admission of not training hard? This argument is not connected in anyway to what I actually said and is a blatant and rather desprate attempt by you to discredit me by strawmaning the argument.
> For the record. I don't spar. Sparring is for competition. I pressure test. They would look kind of the same to you from your perspective I bet, but the purposes are really quite different as sparring is for sport purposes and pressure testing is non-competitive.
> 
> 
> Mz1
> "On the streets, it will be very well placed punches that are carefully picked. But I'm more of a jab spammer then knees and elbow guy."
> 
> This statement is more evidence that you've never been seriously threatened before and engage soley in the monkey dance.
> 
> 
> 
> Mz1
> "Well it's a true statement. Hapikido guys aren't known for their hands just as Boxers aren't known for their kicks. Maybe you're way too sensitive"
> 
> Except for, ya know, all those joint manipulations they do. But as an expert, I'm sure you left that part out on purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> Mz1
> "So an MMA fighter knocking their opponent out in the street or battelfield using his MMA skills.... isn't good enough for this MMA fighter to "survive, escape, arrest (nor) kill" his opponent?"
> 
> 
> Read the damn comment correctly. What I said was that a competitive fighter CAN do those things if he adjusts what he learned in training to the new environment. He or she has the basic skills, if he or she can make the proper adjustmusts _because fighting for your life is nothing like fighting for a title_. Adjustments must be made.
> 
> 
> 
> Mz1
> "I think you go through choreographed sparring and maybe light sparring but never hard sparring to test out your skills and what you think works.....so no one is really in danger of getting punched or kicked at 80-100% power in the face, body, legs, etc. If this is true, then I think that your training is highly unrealistic and doesn't prepare you for the streets nor the battlefield as well as MMA would."
> 
> It's a good thing it's not true then!
> Pressure testing accounts for quite a bit of what I do and serious protective gear is required for it. It is a necessary part of training to make sure you can actually do what you think you can do.
> 
> Mz1
> "I already told you, if you've managed to step to the side of your opponent, why not elbow them with an elbow to the temple rather than this n-strike to the elbow?"
> 
> So now I get to explain again why you don't understand the idea and jsut how off base you are about the purpose of the tactic.
> First off, you don't step to the side. I said that already in a previous post. You move forward at 45 degrees. Moving this way toward the desired arm puts you a position for the opponent to try and hit or grab you with that arm as attacking with the other arm would require a turning movement to reorient them to your position.
> You can't elbow them in the temple, because you wouldn't be close enough for that during the inital movement. You could hit them with your fist, but that's not the point of doing the movement.
> The point of striking the elbow area is that it is a _set up to your desired technique_. When attempting this action there are a few likely scenarios that you account for. 1. The attacker punched and you are moving to evade the strike. 2. You move first, and the attacker strikes out with the limb because you entered his space. 3. You move first and the opponent hesitates and doesn't throw the punch.
> 
> Here is how, if you are trained properly in distance, timing, angling, and targeting you can do _nearly_ _the exact same action_ without worrying which action (or lack thereof) the opponent has chosen:
> 
> 1. As the opponent punches you move forward 45 degrees and evade the hit while simultaniously striking the back his arm around the elbow area and punching through the arm in a manner that takes it across his body, causing him to twist his spine. You now have his back.
> 2. As you move forward, the opponent attacks out of a need to protect his space. You do the same thing as #1 and end up at his back.
> 3. As you move forward like above at the moment in time where you catch the opponent in a state of hesitation, you punch the area around the back of his elbow from it's resting position across his body. You now have his back.
> I'm sure you don't think this will work, and nothing I say will change your narrow view of the world. I'm going to explain why it works though just in case anyone else is still reading my ramblings at this time.
> Targeting the back of the elbow is a sound tactic for the purpose of moving to your opponent's back (or side if you prefer). The part of arm between the elbow and shoulder is what is being targeted. It can be struck accurately even in motion because it does not move much distance between its restng state and the extension from punching or grabbing. So with training, you can reliable judge where the target will be at any given time
> You strike nerves yes, but pain and numbness are not the goal. Those are just bonuses. The goal is to punch through the arm moving it across the body and affect spinal alignment, which affects balance. If your opponent is fighting for balance he cannot fight you and this presents the opportunity for continued striking or grappling.
> You don't just hit him in the head, because every idiot protects their head in a fight. Those that don't, don't fight for very long. People expect their head to be targeted in the middle of a fight, so they take actions to protect it such as blocking with the arm or bobbing and evasive manuvers. No one protects the elbow, because no one thinks their elbow is a target. So you attack it, draw their attention to it and use that as your set up for your desired technique whether that be a throw, choke, or another strike to a more vital area.
> It's very simple, but requires dedicated practice. It's not something someone can do right away, but once you get the footwork and timing right, it's very reliable.
> &#12288;
> 
> Sorry for such a long post everyone, but there has just been so much ignorance here.




LOL, for someone who seems to like calling me a troll, you sure do like talking to me.

I wouldn't want you to feed troll like me so I'll just ignore your long post too and just talk to someone like Flying Crane, who's a reasonable and mature, MA'ist. 

Later bro....and sorry you had to type that giant essay.


----------



## elder999

Mz1 said:


> Not sure who Alex Zenjael is, but it's obvious that he had such a bad effect on you....so I'll give you a break and just ignore the rest of your long post. Don't want to be responsible for triggering your paranoia, worse than it currently is.



That I'm paranoid goes without saying. :lfao:

On the other hand, so does the fact that you and Alex would ignore the reality of mindset in combat. Not surprised at all....:lfao:

(Of  course, it also conveniently allows both of you to ignore the absolute sillines of claiming to be trained bu Japanese judoka and in Danzan ryu being a reason for not knowing what "randori" is .....:: )


----------



## Mz1

Cyriacus said:


> The better retort You could have used on mz1 here:
> Look at the brackets.
> UFC 1:
> Gordeau TKOs Teila Tuli. Savate VS Sumo
> Kevin Rosier TKOs Zane Frazier. Kickboxing VS Kickboxing
> Royce Gracie Submits Art Zimmerson.  BJJ VS Boxing
> Ken Shamrock Submits Patrick Smith. Wrestling VS Taekwondo
> Gerard Gordeau Submits Kevin Rosier. Savate VS Kickboxing
> Royce Gracie Submits Ken Shamrock. BJJ VS Wrestling
> Royce Gracie Submits Gerard Gordeau. BJJ VS Savate
> 
> So far, all thats happened is that ONE TMA guy lost one fight, and because Gracie beat Shamrock, BJJ made a name for itself instead of Wrestling in the MMA scene.
> 
> UFC 2:
> Patrick Smith, a practitioner of Taekwondo, Hapkido, Kenpo Karate, and Tang Soo Do practitioner, beat Ray Wizard, Scott Morris, and Johnny Rhodes, then got submitted by Gracie *in the finals*.
> Yeah, TMA really got put in its place there. Stupid TMAs, making it to the finals, while BJJ continued getting popular because ground games werent as much of a thing yet.
> 
> Before i continue, is BJJ a TMA? I ask, because Taekwondo is a TMA, and it was only founded in the 50s. It was founded on a few traditional styles, and BJJ was build off Kodokan Judo.
> 
> UFC 3:
> A Ninjutsu guy by the name of Steve Jennum won UFC 3.
> Granted, that was due to a cluster of injuries and backouts, but im still not seeing TMAs getting whooped.
> The other guy who made it to the finals, Harold Howard, was a Jujutsu and Goju Ryu Karate guy. He also did a few other TMAs.
> 
> UFC 4:
> Gracie submits Ron van Clief, Karateka.
> Gracie submits Keith Hackney, a Kenpo and Taekwondo fighter.
> Gracie submits Dan Severn, a Wrestler.
> Interestingly, Keith Hackney submitted Joe Son, a Joe Son Do fighter, to get to fight Gracie.
> And Dan Severn went through two guys whos styles arent too clear to get to the final. So far, still no whooping. Only Gracie submitting people left and right because His approach was still very new to Them.
> 
> So where, exactly, was TMA destroyed, and how do You retort to Me saying that BJJ is just as much a TMA as anything else is, should You brand it as such? It has belts, uniforms, and its used in competitions.




Thanks for the break down. This is an excellent post.

My point though is that Patrick Smith, Gracie, Shamrock, etc. represented the evolution of combat fight training, breaking away from TMA.

Smith's base is TKD, but he's a Kickboxer, fighting in K-1, etc.  Kickboxing is from Karate, just as BJJ is from Japanese JJ & Judo....but KB and BJJ are similar in terms of being these catalysts towards breaking away from TMA and transitioning into what MMA is today. 

Jeet Kune Do could have been what MMA is today had it not fizzled out by focusing too much on SD ninja-strikes rather than the sporty aspect of competitive fighting.


----------



## Gnarlie

Mz1 said:


> Jeet Kune Do could have been what MMA is today had it not fizzled out by focusing too much on SD ninja-strikes rather than the sporty aspect of competitive fighting.



Oh dear god.  JKD is alive and well, thank you.  What do you think of as a 'ninja strike' then, other than a sarcastic and frankly insulting way to address anything outside of the MMA sport syllabus?

JKD can and does feature techniques and principles from all of the major arts that constitute the core of MMA and more.  I don't think you understand what you are talking about, and to write off a whole system as 'fizzled out' gives some indication of how your preconceptions have limited your learning ability to date.  

Good luck with your future career, an attitude like yours will only get you so far in life.

Gnarlie


----------



## jks9199

Mz1 said:


> My point though is that Patrick Smith, Gracie, Shamrock, etc. represented the evolution of _*combat fight training,*_ breaking away from TMA.



No, they represent an evolution in combat SPORT training.  If you get a chance to look at some tournament sparring from the 60s and 70s, you may notice that it doesn't resemble the current stuff much at all.  Somewhere, people stopped transferring style to fighting... but that's a whole 'nother topic.  Something's gone off if what you do under pressure bears no relation to what you do in training...  (By the way, you might want to look more closely at the rules and environment.  The early UFC events favored grapplers...)

My tip early was to know what you're involved in: is it some sort of status fight, or is it real violence?  They aren't the same, and responses that work well in one won't be as successful in the other.  Violence is likely to be on you before you realize it, for most people.  Rory Miller did a great job summarizing the difference:  Violence happens closer, harder, faster, and more surprisingly than you expect.  At work -- I'm paid to be on the surprising side.  If I anticipate you're going to fight me -- I'll stack the deck every which way I can.  I'll bring buddies.  I'll use unfair advantages like the Taser.  Guess what?  Predators will do the same.  They'll bash your head in with a club before they take your wallet.  But a monkey dance or status fight?  There's almost a script and ritual to it -- because it is every bit as ritualized as two rams bashing their heads against each other to win a mate.  Know the difference...


----------



## Cyriacus

Mz1 said:


> Thanks for the break down. This is an excellent post.
> 
> My point though is that Patrick Smith, Gracie, Shamrock, etc. represented the evolution of combat fight training, breaking away from TMA.
> 
> Smith's base is TKD, but he's a Kickboxer, fighting in K-1, etc.  Kickboxing is from Karate, just as BJJ is from Japanese JJ & Judo....but KB and BJJ are similar in terms of being these catalysts towards breaking away from TMA and transitioning into what MMA is today.
> 
> Jeet Kune Do could have been what MMA is today had it not fizzled out by focusing too much on SD ninja-strikes rather than the sporty aspect of competitive fighting.


Fighting in the K1 doesnt mean youre a Kickboxer - It means Youre competing in Kickboxing. Much like Andy Hug.

They didnt transition away from TMA - They mix and matched, then made an event out of it. It was quite a long time before it stopped being system vs system, and became MMA vs MMA.


----------



## Steve

Just to keep things real here, the early UFCs included elite level Judoka, elite level Sambo/Sombo practitioners and Ken Shamrock wasn't just a wrestler.  While you could say that about some of the early guys who were successful, such as Dan Severn and Mark Coleman, it doesn't fit Shamrock.  He was the closest thing to an actual MMA fighter that existed at the time.  Ken Shamrock had around 20 fights in the Pancrase tournaments in Japan and entered the Octagon in 1996 as the "King of Pancrase."


----------



## chinto

Mz1 said:


> Thanks for the break down. This is an excellent post.
> 
> My point though is that Patrick Smith, Gracie, Shamrock, etc. represented the evolution of combat fight training, breaking away from TMA.
> 
> Smith's base is TKD, but he's a Kickboxer, fighting in K-1, etc.  Kickboxing is from Karate, just as BJJ is from Japanese JJ & Judo....but KB and BJJ are similar in terms of being these catalysts towards breaking away from TMA and transitioning into what MMA is today.
> 
> Jeet Kune Do could have been what MMA is today had it not fizzled out by focusing too much on SD ninja-strikes rather than the sporty aspect of competitive fighting.




ok if you are into combative sports  you may have some kind of valid point. but some of us are not into that, but into survival in the street situation.  If you think that some how the UFC is anything like a real SD situation, I am sad for you. 

UFC and such = rounds, a mat,  a Ref and good lighting, and your life is not in jeopardy intentionally.

SD situation on the street= run if you can, talk your way out if you can, and if you fight go for broke! Because your life is literally at stake! To loose does not equal a loss on your fight record, but your provable major injury and or your death!  

So, to say that some how if you are not trying to be one of the UFC and similar cage fighters you are not training or well trained is kinda ridicules.. TMA was originally founded and developed for survival.  

Does that mean that MMA and such is invalid? NO, just it is a bunch of things taken from TMA and modified for combative sport use in a prize fight.  Each has its uses. for myself I am interested in defending me and mine, and could care less about the cage matches.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Mz1 said:


> LOL, for someone who seems to like calling me a troll, you sure do like talking to me.
> 
> I wouldn't want you to feed troll like me so I'll just ignore your long post too and just talk to someone like Flying Crane, who's a reasonable and mature, MA'ist.
> 
> Later bro....and sorry you had to type that giant essay.


correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it *EDIT:* *Xue Sheng and Bluewaveschool* who called you a troll, not himura? If so, you lost your excuse not to reply, time to find a new one, or, you know, reply. That could work to. 

As for your comment about Tyson..bad example bro. Tyson has stated that boxing is different then a streetfight (now i know you'll just say he's a boxer not a MMAist, but you brought him up not me). He has been in streetfights, and in fact, referring to one of the non-ring fights he has been in (and admittedly won), he said "I hadn't been in a streetfight in seven years, I was getting scared". If they are so similar, why would the undisputed heavyweight champ of the world be scared of a streetfight? 

Also, speaking of Tyson reminded me of a recent thread we had, started by Russian (in beginners corner listed under actually training at home if you want a reference), he mentioned that he's the best boxer in his gym, but he "is not capable of defending himself", and it's *always* multiple attackers and *always* a surprise. Neither of these are things MMA focuses on. And if it was so successful, why would someone with boxing experience want to leave it to go to a TMA or a SD oriented art, instead of just adding BJJ to his curriculum?


----------



## chinto

jks9199 said:


> No, they represent an evolution in combat SPORT training.  If you get a chance to look at some tournament sparring from the 60s and 70s, you may notice that it doesn't resemble the current stuff much at all.  Somewhere, people stopped transferring style to fighting... but that's a whole 'nother topic.  Something's gone off if what you do under pressure bears no relation to what you do in training...  (By the way, you might want to look more closely at the rules and environment.  The early UFC events favored grapplers...)
> 
> My tip early was to know what you're involved in: is it some sort of status fight, or is it real violence?  They aren't the same, and responses that work well in one won't be as successful in the other.  Violence is likely to be on you before you realize it, for most people.  Rory Miller did a great job summarizing the difference:  Violence happens closer, harder, faster, and more surprisingly than you expect.  At work -- I'm paid to be on the surprising side.  If I anticipate you're going to fight me -- I'll stack the deck every which way I can.  I'll bring buddies.  I'll use unfair advantages like the Taser.  Guess what?  Predators will do the same.  They'll bash your head in with a club before they take your wallet.  But a monkey dance or status fight?  There's almost a script and ritual to it -- because it is every bit as ritualized as two rams bashing their heads against each other to win a mate.  Know the difference...



I agree, if its some kind of status fight or about dominance you can usually talk your way out of it.  Personally if I can not walk away or talk my way out of it, it is then an SD situation and possible deadly force situation till shown other wise.  so when you see the monkey dance start, opt out.  but yes always assume that the other is a predator concealed in the persona of a non predator.  the big one is, if it goes either way, you are managing to talk your way out or walk away,  proceed on the assumption that it is very very serious and your life may well be at stake and that you missed something resulting in it going sour till your completely clear of it.


----------



## chinto

kempodisciple said:


> correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it *EDIT:* *Xue Sheng and Bluewaveschool* who called you a troll, not himura? If so, you lost your excuse not to reply, time to find a new one, or, you know, reply. That could work to.
> 
> As for your comment about Tyson..bad example bro. Tyson has stated that boxing is different then a streetfight (now i know you'll just say he's a boxer not a MMAist, but you brought him up not me). He has been in streetfights, and in fact, referring to one of the non-ring fights he has been in (and admittedly won), he said "I hadn't been in a streetfight in seven years, I was getting scared". If they are so similar, why would the undisputed heavyweight champ of the world be scared of a streetfight?
> 
> Also, speaking of Tyson reminded me of a recent thread we had, started by Russian (in beginners corner listed under actually training at home if you want a reference), he mentioned that he's the best boxer in his gym, but he "is not capable of defending himself", and it's *always* multiple attackers and *always* a surprise. Neither of these are things MMA focuses on. And if it was so successful, why would someone with boxing experience want to leave it to go to a TMA or a SD oriented art, instead of just adding BJJ to his curriculum?



Because tje sports are just that, and predicated on rules and not survival.  The TMA and SD oriented arts are predicated on ambush by the attacker, and always more then one attacker and often they may be armed.  And I know boxers who are very very tough who say they would not want to fight a good TMA guy on the street. when asked why they say " because that man will literally KILL ME.   Which points out that combat sports do all they can for " fighter safety"  TMA and such do not! they are predicated on your life being in jeopardy and so  lethal force possibly being necessary to preserve your own or some others life.


----------



## Mz1

oaktree said:


> In a street fight there are no rules the other Guy
> Is trying to kill you.



FALSE. Either you've bought into or you are, the one selling, the current TMA/SD schtick by trying to scare people into joining your TMA/SD gyms.  Or you've never been in too many street fights.  Because most street fights aren't fights to the death at all. There are thousands of videos on the internet where street fights are just a bunch of sloppy slugs, going crazy with haymakers for a good 5-10 seconds until they gas out. Or it's a hug fest on the ground....and rarely does any one even gets eye gouged, bitten, or whatever. 

No fights to the death. Usually not even a fight to serious injuries. Most of the worse cases are fights to the KO, after which the fight is broken up by bystanders (just like a Ref in the ring).   or even the winner stop attacking on his own.

Maybe 1 out of a 1000 streetfight video does someone dies, but that's usually some gang attack on 1....where neither MMA nor SD/TMA would help but Track & Field, definitely.



> In sport martial arts the object is to win.
> In a street fight no one to break up the fight, no corner



Knocking someone out in the ring/cage is just as effective as knocking them out in the street. 


Man to throw in the towel, ni time limit, no rest.
In a street fight you may fight someone bigger,faster then you.
If you are sick or broke your hand no reschedule fight.



> Your opponent may carry a weapon and as soon as you
> Shoot into his legs he stabs you in the kidney.
> In a street fight multiple attacker, curbs and bricks can be easily



I carry at least 1 knife and a 9mm. Think I'm going to play chopsocky in the streets when someone pulls out a knife? I had a giant knife pulled on me once and I picked up a pipe (construction in the area). No fight to the death. We went on our separate ways (all the while a security guard was watching from afar hoping to see some action).



> Used against you as you grapple for that arm bar.



Why would I armbar someone when I like to knock them out instead?



> In real life encounters you are often robbery from behind.
> If you are not training for this type of scenarios and more focused
> on rules in a ring your not training for self defense in a street encounter.



You obviously don't fight nor spar for KO's often. Otherwise you'd know that it sharpens your ninja skills tremendously. Especially if you wear headgear as it hinders your peripheral vision causing you to be much more cautious of hooks and haymakers; as they're coming in from the blind spots caused by the headgear.  An experienced fighter is way, way more skilled than the average play fighting TMA/SD MA'ist who don't fight nor spar med-hard every week. The more you fight, the more alert and aware you are of threats and footwork, etc. will come with such dedicated training.


----------



## Mz1

elder999 said:


> That I'm paranoid goes without saying. :lfao:
> 
> On the other hand, so does the fact that you and Alex would ignore the reality of mindset in combat. Not surprised at all....:lfao:
> 
> (Of  course, it also conveniently allows both of you to ignore the absolute sillines of claiming to be trained bu Japanese judoka and in Danzan ryu being a reason for not knowing what "randori" is .....:: )



Or that you should re-read what I wrote or ask someone to help you with identifying sarcasm, thanks.


----------



## Mz1

Gnarlie said:


> Oh dear god.  JKD is alive and well, thank you.  What do you think of as a 'ninja strike' then, other than a sarcastic and frankly insulting way to address anything outside of the MMA sport syllabus?
> 
> JKD can and does feature techniques and principles from all of the major arts that constitute the core of MMA and more.  I don't think you understand what you are talking about, and to write off a whole system as 'fizzled out' gives some indication of how your preconceptions have limited your learning ability to date.
> 
> Good luck with your future career, an attitude like yours will only get you so far in life.
> 
> Gnarlie



I didn't say JKD is dead, just that it fizzled (just like Bartitsu). JDK could have been as big as MMA right now had it went the sporty route rather than the death-touch one (like that better than ninja-strike?). But you can't tell me it went very far at all considering how popular and profitable Kung-Fu was right after Enter the Dragon became a worldwide hit. Then in the 80's, it was TKD McDojos that sprouted up everywhere.  Where was JKD?  You obviously just got all wound up just because I said fizzled and neglected to read what I wrote more carefully.


----------



## Mz1

jks9199 said:


> No, they represent an evolution in combat SPORT training.  If you get a chance to look at some tournament sparring from the 60s and 70s, you may notice that it doesn't resemble the current stuff much at all.  Somewhere, people stopped transferring style to fighting... but that's a whole 'nother topic.  Something's gone off if what you do under pressure bears no relation to what you do in training...



You say tomato I guess. Sounds like we're saying the same thing. 



> (By the way, you might want to look more closely at the rules and environment.  The early UFC events favored grapplers...)



Tell me how it favored grapplers.  



> My tip early was to know what you're involved in: is it some sort of status fight, or is it real violence?  They aren't the same, and responses that work well in one won't be as successful in the other.  Violence is likely to be on you before you realize it, for most people.  Rory Miller did a great job summarizing the difference:  Violence happens closer, harder, faster, and more surprisingly than you expect.  At work -- I'm paid to be on the surprising side.  If I anticipate you're going to fight me -- I'll stack the deck every which way I can.  I'll bring buddies.  I'll use unfair advantages like the Taser.  Guess what?  Predators will do the same.  They'll bash your head in with a club before they take your wallet.  But a monkey dance or status fight?  There's almost a script and ritual to it -- because it is every bit as ritualized as two rams bashing their heads against each other to win a mate.  Know the difference...



Not sure who Rory Miller is, but he's not the final authority on this subject. Fighting MMA has way more sharpened my alertness, reflex, skills, etc. compared to my old TKD days of light sparring. Play fighting in SD classes is probably not going to help as much neither. I used to live in Baltimore, DC, etc...you don't have to tell me about being aware of sudden violence. I love weapons. I always carry knives at least and my 9mm in States that reciprocates my CCW. I have guns strategically placed throughout my house, including the bathroom, should I get attacked while doing my business. You think I'm going to play sports MMA against someone in a dark alley when I have a gun + knives?


----------



## Mz1

Cyriacus said:


> Fighting in the K1 doesnt mean youre a Kickboxer - It means Youre competing in Kickboxing. Much like Andy Hug.



Kickboxing, technically comes from Karate. But it's also a generic term now. Patrick Smith is certainly a Kickboxer just as much as he's also a Boxer. TKD is listed because that's his root.


----------



## bluewaveschool

I figured as much as you believe your crap smells like roses, I'd have to explain it to you.


----------



## Mz1

chinto said:


> ok if you are into combative sports  you may have some kind of valid point. but some of us are not into that, but into survival in the street situation.  If you think that some how the UFC is anything like a real SD situation, I am sad for you.



I'm sad for you too as you've bought into this TMA/SD marketing schtick of fear mongering...to scare students and ladies into paying good money to train play fighting. Luckily, violent crimes rarely happens in general considering the chances, so most SD students usually never need to test out whether or not their training really works. But I bet if someone were to punch them in the face one day in the street, they'd freak out in fear as they've never been hit at full force in the face before in SD class. 



> UFC and such = rounds, a mat,  a Ref and good lighting, and your life is not in jeopardy intentionally.



The fight still starts out with both fighters trying to knock the other one out. A KO in the UFC is just as good as a KO in the street. They both involve the exertion of maximum effort and power towards trying to knock the other guy's head clean off. 



> SD situation on the street= run if you can, talk your way out if you can, and if you fight go for broke! Because your life is literally at stake!



And you don't think a UFC fighter is going for broke by throwing all the power that he has towards knocking out his opponent?



> To loose does not equal a loss on your fight record, but your provable major injury and or your death!


 
 Not every situation is going to be life or death. I've been in many street altercations. I used to bounce at a club too. The more trained and experienced I am at fighting, the less I need to really mess someone up, or worse, kill him and go to jail, get sued, go on death row, etc.  People who don't fight often, usually get all excited when such situation arises and are probably more likely to go into bloodlust. Trained fighters are usually calm and collected. 



> So, to say that some how if you are not trying to be one of the UFC and similar cage fighters you are not training or well trained is kinda ridicules.. TMA was originally founded and developed for survival.


 
A UFC fighter putting his elbow through someone's face in the cage, works just as good in the street. Who's going to be better and more powerful at doing such, a UFC fighter who fights for real or a TMA light sparring guy who only spars light all the time?



> Does that mean that MMA and such is invalid? NO, just it is a bunch of things taken from TMA and modified for combative sport use in a prize fight.  Each has its uses. for myself I am interested in defending me and mine, and could care less about the cage matches.



If you don't fight often, how do you know that you're good at it and can protect your family should the situation arises?


----------



## Cyriacus

Mz1 said:


> Kickboxing, technically comes from Karate. But it's also a generic term now. Patrick Smith is certainly a Kickboxer just as much as he's also a Boxer. TKD is listed because that's his root.


And boxing means fighting. Therefore, I am also a boxer.


----------



## elder999

Mz1 said:


> Tell me how it favored grapplers.



No time limits. No standing up after prolonged "inaction" on the ground.The mat surface favored grappling as well: it was softer, and not that great a foundation for striking. All that being said, most other fighters weren't at all prepared for what Gracie jiu-jitsu was, and most of them had no real ground game. 




Mz1 said:


> Not sure who Rory Miller is, but he's not the final authority on this subject.



:lfao: :lfao: :lfao:



Mz1 said:


> Or that you should re-read what I wrote or ask someone to help you with identifying sarcasm, thanks.




Me? Have trouble identifying _sarcasm_? :lfao: :lfao:


----------



## Mz1

kempodisciple said:


> correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it *EDIT:* *Xue Sheng and Bluewaveschool* who called you a troll, not himura? If so, you lost your excuse not to reply, time to find a new one, or, you know, reply. That could work to.



Bzzzzt. Wrong. Post #215  "Wow Mz1, bravo for all your astounding observations. I barely even know  where to begin and am debating whether or not I even should address what  you said, because now I do believe you are merely trolling."



> As for your comment about Tyson..bad example bro. Tyson has stated that boxing is different then a streetfight (now i know you'll just say he's a boxer not a MMAist, but you brought him up not me).



My comment was that his skills as a Boxer is applicable in the street.



> He has been in streetfights, and in fact, referring to one of the non-ring fights he has been in (and admittedly won), he said "I hadn't been in a streetfight in seven years, I was getting scared".  If they are so similar, why would the undisputed heavyweight champ of the world be scared of a streetfight?



Obviously he was working on his PR. Right around that time he was being accused of rape and such. He's also has a long history of spousal abuse.  Or did you really think that Tyson was really scared. Wait you did, didn't you? 



> Also, speaking of Tyson reminded me of a recent thread we had, started by Russian (in beginners corner listed under actually training at home if you want a reference), he mentioned that he's the best boxer in his gym, but he "is not capable of defending himself", and it's *always* multiple attackers and *always* a surprise. Neither of these are things MMA focuses on. And if it was so successful, why would someone with boxing experience want to leave it to go to a TMA or a SD oriented art, instead of just adding BJJ to his curriculum?



So this anonymous Russian Boxer guy and his personal experience (which could all be lies) is now the benchmark and final authority on this subject & debate now?


----------



## Mz1

chinto said:


> The TMA and SD oriented arts are predicated on ambush by the attacker, and always more then one attacker and often they may be armed.  And I know boxers who are very very tough who say they would not want to fight a good TMA guy on the street. when asked why they say " because that man will literally KILL ME.



I think I saw this movie too.



> Which points out that combat sports do all they can for " fighter safety"  TMA and such do not! they are predicated on your life being in jeopardy and so  lethal force possibly being necessary to preserve your own or some others life.


 
If an MMA fighter who decides to mug you in the street, attacks you and knocks you out with an elbow to your face. How is this not effective? And as your body lays unconscious on the ground, he can either take your money and leave or he can stomp on your head until your skull caves in and you die, if he wanted to. Or did you think that there was some kind of chip implanted into the MMA fighter's brain, by his MMA gym, that prevents him from ever breaking MMA sports fighting rules while in the streets?


----------



## Mz1

bluewaveschool said:


> I figured as much as you believe your crap smells like roses, I'd have to explain it to you.



Sorry that my sarcasm made you mad.


----------



## Mz1

Cyriacus said:


> And boxing means fighting. Therefore, I am also a boxer.



Sure, I don't have a problem with that, knock yourself out....not literally (I know this is your weak spot).


----------



## Mz1

elder999 said:


> No time limits. No standing up after prolonged "inaction" on the ground.



Sounds like it favored towards being as close as possible to a real fight to me. Isn't that what most of you TMA/SD want?  And look how bad Gracie mopped the floor with all of youse  



> The mat surface favored grappling as well: it was softer, and not that great a foundation for striking.



And the softer mat surface could be argued to help cushion the strikers' head as he's slammed on it by the grappler. But I kind of do agree with the mat situation as I do recall a standup fighter complaining about it in an article somewhere when the early UFC's were going on.



> All that being said, most other fighters weren't at all prepared for  what Gracie jiu-jitsu was, and most of them had no real ground game.



Who's fault is that? How can it be the UFC's fault? 



> Me? Have trouble identifying _sarcasm_? :lfao: :lfao:



Yes.


----------



## elder999

Mz1 said:


> Sounds like it favored towards being as close as possible to a real fight to me. Isn't that what most of you TMA/SD want? And look how bad Gracie mopped the floor with all of youse



While I have a background in TMA, I'm hardly one of "youse." I'm something else entirely. More importantly, your saying that it "favored towards being as close to a real fight to me," pretty much says that you probably really don't know a thing about "*real* fights," because they don't last 20-25 minutes. They're more like 30 seconds, maybe a little more, absurd youtube videos of drunken brawling thugs notwithstanding. 


Of course, all of this noise about "stikers vs. grapplers," early UFC vs. Fertatta UFC," and "sport vs. self-defense" is still just that: *noise*. Even in sports, it comes down to mindset overall. Case in point: I boxed Golden Gloves, about a million years ago. I'd done okay in amateur boxing, done well against collegiate boxers, and-at 16-gave the show, back in New York, a go. My dad-who'd been around boxing since the 40's, tried his best to discourage me, but I was pretty determined, and I did okay for a while. In the end, though, I was just a talented amateur-albeit one who could shed 25 lbs. pretty easily, and who wound up with a reach advantage over most other fighters at 147. One who had better nutrition, and really good training. I was also one, though, who had a college degree, and was going to get more of them-who'd known since he was little-and had been told repeatedly- that he was going to college. I was a guy who had options, and a pretty decent jab. The guys I fought in the quarterfinals and semifinal, though? *Boxing* was what they had-*all* they'd had since they were 8 years old. 

Those ghetto boys beat the crap out of me. Never had a chance: I had a good job, lots of stamina, other fair skills, and an awkward, gawky style that might have taken another boxer fairly far, but I was just playing, and I was between them and their only dream and chance. 

Mindset.


----------



## Mz1

elder999 said:


> While I have a background in TMA, I'm hardly one of "youse." I'm something else entirely. More importantly, your saying that it "favored towards being as close to a real fight to me," pretty much says that you probably really don't know a thing about "*real* fights," because they don't last 20-25 minutes. They're more like 30 seconds, maybe a little more, absurd youtube videos of drunken brawling thugs notwithstanding.



Your self contradiction being, while you try to convey the unpredictable nature of street fights...yet you're now trying to tell me that there is a formula for such, being this 30 seconds.

If you really fought as a Boxer as you claimed, then you should know that when 2 equally matched fighters fight, it's just not that easy to knock someone out within your magical 30 seconds, unless you get that magical KO. 

And the reason why many street fights lasts 30 seconds is due to them being mostly between 2 slobs, swinging wildly until they gas out or someone gets lucky. Or it gets broken up, etc.  A  UFC fighter vs. an average Joe, yea I can see it lasting less than 30 seconds.


----------



## Cyriacus

Mz1 said:


> Sure, I don't have a problem with that, knock yourself out....not literally (I know this is your weak spot).


I really have no idea what youre talking about?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Mz1 said:


> Bzzzzt. Wrong. Post #215  "Wow Mz1, bravo for all your astounding observations. I barely even know  where to begin and am debating whether or not I even should address what  you said, because now I do believe you are merely trolling."



Ok, I stand corrected.



> My comment was that his skills as a Boxer is applicable in the street.



And my comment was that he disagrees with that idea, and your overall argument, at least to an extent. Any reason we're explaining our pretty simple comments to each other?
EDIT: and as an answer to your actual question...No, I would not walk up to Mike Tyson and poke him in the eyes, for multiple reasons. 
1. I would not walk up to anyone and 'poke them in the eyes' or anything similar. That is attacking, not SD. 
2. He is much larger than me, and much more durable to pain. If I were to attack him, it would most likely be with multiple strikes, at least one of them being some sort of strike to the carotid artery (it's an area I've been trained to hit, and remember, he has no reason to expect it since I'm 'walking up to him and hitting him')
3. He is much larger than me, so I would not want to get in a fight with him at all. I'd do an escaping moving to get out of his distance and run, not move in to fight. 
4. He has much, much more experience with boxing then I do with Kempo, and he's larger than me by a good 100 pounds. 1 punch from him could send me to the ground, no matter how in shape I am.
5. I'm not a huge fan of eye pokes in general. Gouging, maybe, although I've never had an oppurtunity to test how easy/tough that is. But poking, that just aggravates them.
6. He's much larger than me (have I mentioned that already?)



> Obviously he was working on his PR. Right around that time he was being accused of rape and such. He's also has a long history of spousal abuse.  Or did you really think that Tyson was really scared. Wait you did, didn't you?



He said that in an interview after the fact. If you look at his interviews during that time period, not once does he mention being scared in the ring, so why would he lie and say he was scared during the time he was exclaiming how he was the baddest around, and wasn't scared of anything. Read bad intentions, he got scared a lot, especially early on 




> So this anonymous Russian Boxer guy and his personal experience (which could all be lies) is now the benchmark and final authority on this subject & debate now?



Not anymore than this anonymous Mz1 MMA guy and his personal experience is now the benchmark and final authority on this subject & debate now. Just giving an example to support an argument. 
Oh, and you saying I consider him the final authority is just lying. Show me where I said that. (see what I did there, using your own 'debating techniques' against you?)


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

and since for some odd reason I have a feeling you'll tell me that a hit to the carotid artery or the windpipe is a 'ninja move', here you go:
http://www.askthestreetfighter.com/combatmoves/strikeeffects/striking-carotid-arteries.php


----------



## Jaeimseu

I don't practice MMA, nor do I have any interest in practicing it. And I don't really have a dog in the fight over whether or not MMA or TMA are more effective for self defense. 

I think bringing the lack of a referee, etc into the argument is mostly a lot of noise. Once all parties are aware that there is a self defense situation, how much difference is there really between a competitive and a real fight? The mindset may be different. And the outcome could be different (though I don't agree that most real fights are life and death). However, a strike that ends the fight ends the fight. It doesn't matter what someone studied. 

And when it comes to a surprise attack (someone clubbing you when you aren't looking), it doesn't matter what you've studied, either. I don't believe that MMA or TMA inherently prepares someone for this kind of situation. I think it's more self awareness and awareness of your surroundings coming into play. A person doesn't need any MA training to learn these skills. 

Neither side is going to change the other side's mind. TMA people tend to get emotional when MMA people call what they do "play fighting," and sports people get annoyed when TMA people extrapolate about why sport fighting doesn't prepare someone for the street. In the end, who cares? If you enjoy what you do, then keep doing it.


----------



## Mauthos

I have been following this post with interest as this is the first time I have witnessed this sort of back and forth arguments (first real forum I have signed up to).

What interests me is the debate MMA is better than TMA or vice versa and that one is more effective in a street situation than the other.  My personal opinion is that it all really depends on the situation and as a martial artist what reaction comes to you first.

I started off my martial arts path with Shotokan karate when I was 6.  Didn't like it if I am honest and quit after about 1 year.  A few years later I took up kick boxing, then due to my military career I trained in whatever happened to be in the local area, so I have trained in Wado Ryu, Tang Soo Do, Jujitsu, Ninjitsu, Akido, Din Gar Gung Fu, Systema, Tae Kwon Do, Akijutsu (SP?) and Kenpo.  Would I call myself an MMAist? as technically my background is in a mix of martial arts, no I am a Kenpo TMA guy, why? Because that is the art I have managed to stick with for the past 10 years and the one I teach.

I have had over 60 full contact fights during my time as a boxer and kick boxer for the RAF, but my natural reaction in recent years has not been to resort to a punch to the face when I have been attacked on the street.  The reason behind this is that I train in Kenpo day in day out, the so called choreographed moves Mz1 claims (apologies if you never stated this) are so ingrained with me that if someone does swing for me I tend to move out the way, attack the limb to shock and disable and then look to strike the throat, knees or as is common in Kenpo, the groin.

I believe this is what true fights are all about.  2 drunken slobs with no training will swing punches all day long until they gas or get lucky as it is probably the only way they know how to fight.  An MMA guy who trains solely in MMA more than likely will go for the punch or elbow strike to the face and the TMA guys may use open palm strikes to more 'delicate' areas of their attackers.

I don't believe that there is an art that is better than all others, every martial art offers something to a student to help them defend themselves when the need arises.

My teaching is mainly the SD techniques within the Kenpo syllabus, however I also teach competition sparring (point stop etc) but I also feel it is essential to put pressure on my students when they are practicing their SD techniques (resisting, pushing them around etc) to add realism.  This also extends to sparring, yes with the point stop, a strike is landed, the fighters stop, reset and go again.  However, it is also important to me that my students understand that real fights are continuous so in that respect we also train full contact continuous sparring.  The intention is not to KO each other, but believe me, my students definitely know what it is like to take a shot.

Therefore, as this waffle gets longer than intended, let me sum up in saying that I think each aspect of training within a TMA or a MMA style is effective (recently a student broke his arm performing a SD technique a little too effectively in class) and what you call upon when in a street fight naturally is probably your best defense.  Whether that is strikes, locks or chokes all can be effective when trained well.

No art is better than another, MMA is not better than TMA or vice versa, how you react based on your training is how you will fight and hopefully how you will succeed and defend yourself successfully.  Well that's my take on the topic anyway.

Salute.


----------



## Tez3

Mauthos said:


> I have been following this post with interest as this is the first time I have witnessed this sort of back and forth arguments (first real forum I have signed up to).
> 
> What interests me is the debate MMA is better than TMA or vice versa and that one is more effective in a street situation than the other. My personal opinion is that it all really depends on the situation and as a martial artist what reaction comes to you first.
> 
> I started off my martial arts path with Shotokan karate when I was 6. Didn't like it if I am honest and quit after about 1 year. A few years later I took up kick boxing, then due to my military career I trained in whatever happened to be in the local area, so I have trained in Wado Ryu, Tang Soo Do, Jujitsu, Ninjitsu, Akido, Din Gar Gung Fu, Systema, Tae Kwon Do, Akijutsu (SP?) and Kenpo. Would I call myself an MMAist? as technically my background is in a mix of martial arts, no I am a Kenpo TMA guy, why? Because that is the art I have managed to stick with for the past 10 years and the one I teach.
> 
> I have had over 60 full contact fights during my time as a boxer and kick boxer for the RAF, but my natural reaction in recent years has not been to resort to a punch to the face when I have been attacked on the street. The reason behind this is that I train in Kenpo day in day out, the so called choreographed moves Mz1 claims (apologies if you never stated this) are so ingrained with me that if someone does swing for me I tend to move out the way, attack the limb to shock and disable and then look to strike the throat, knees or as is common in Kenpo, the groin.
> 
> I believe this is what true fights are all about. 2 drunken slobs with no training will swing punches all day long until they gas or get lucky as it is probably the only way they know how to fight. An MMA guy who trains solely in MMA more than likely will go for the punch or elbow strike to the face and the TMA guys may use open palm strikes to more 'delicate' areas of their attackers.
> 
> I don't believe that there is an art that is better than all others, every martial art offers something to a student to help them defend themselves when the need arises.
> 
> My teaching is mainly the SD techniques within the Kenpo syllabus, however I also teach competition sparring (point stop etc) but I also feel it is essential to put pressure on my students when they are practicing their SD techniques (resisting, pushing them around etc) to add realism. This also extends to sparring, yes with the point stop, a strike is landed, the fighters stop, reset and go again. However, it is also important to me that my students understand that real fights are continuous so in that respect we also train full contact continuous sparring. The intention is not to KO each other, but believe me, my students definitely know what it is like to take a shot.
> 
> Therefore, as this waffle gets longer than intended, let me sum up in saying that I think each aspect of training within a TMA or a MMA style is effective (recently a student broke his arm performing a SD technique a little too effectively in class) and what you call upon when in a street fight naturally is probably your best defense. Whether that is strikes, locks or chokes all can be effective when trained well.
> 
> No art is better than another, MMA is not better than TMA or vice versa, how you react based on your training is how you will fight and hopefully how you will succeed and defend yourself successfully. Well that's my take on the topic anyway.
> 
> Salute.




QFT, spot on.


----------



## oaktree

Hi mz1
I guess we will agree to disagree.
 You might want to reflect on your negative status and
How you present yourself on the forum.
Anyway best of luck.


----------



## Cirdan

To get back on topic, my tip would be to let go of your ego.

(This may be a long journey if you are an insecure internet tough guy)


----------



## Tez3




----------



## Gnarlie

Mz1 said:


> I didn't say JKD is dead, just that it fizzled (just like Bartitsu). JDK could have been as big as MMA right now had it went the sporty route rather than the death-touch one (like that better than ninja-strike?). But you can't tell me it went very far at all considering how popular and profitable Kung-Fu was right after Enter the Dragon became a worldwide hit. Then in the 80's, it was TKD McDojos that sprouted up everywhere.  Where was JKD?  You obviously just got all wound up just because I said fizzled and neglected to read what I wrote more carefully.



You said it fizzled OUT. That's saying it died.

I read what you wrote and understood it perfectly well, thanks.  It told me everything I need to know about you.

There's nothing 'death touch' or 'ninja strike' about JKD or many other modern martial arts with their roots in tradition.

On the other hand, considering your closed-off attitude to everything other than the MMA sport syllabus and your own opinion, there's no reason you would know that fact.  Most closed-minded people learn very slowly and inefficiently. They think they know it all, but everyone else can see them for what they really are.

Gnarlie


----------



## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> You said it fizzled OUT. That's saying it died.
> 
> I read what you wrote and understood it perfectly well, thanks. It told me everything I need to know about you.
> 
> There's nothing 'death touch' or 'ninja strike' about JKD or many other modern martial arts with their roots in tradition.
> 
> On the other hand, considering your closed-off attitude to everything other than the MMA sport syllabus and your own opinion, there's no reason you would know that fact. Most closed-minded people learn very slowly and inefficiently. They think they know it all, but everyone else can see them for what they really are.
> 
> Gnarlie



To be honest I wouldn't say his knowledge and practice of MMA is that great either, There's never a need to be defensive and insulting if you are confident of what you do. It's interesting that several of us are told _we_ don't understand what he's written or that _our _understanding is flawed. sadly I think we understand all too well. I'd thought that at MT we had come to understand the differences between MMA and TMA and the things that are alike and we'd respected both, we don't need a Tap Out wunderkind stirring it all up again, especially when his knowledge of MMA is incomplete.


----------



## Mz1

kempodisciple said:


> And my comment was that he disagrees with that idea, and your overall argument, at least to an extent. Any reason we're explaining our pretty simple comments to each other?
> 
> He said that in an interview after the fact. If you look at his interviews during that time period, not once does he mention being scared in the ring, so why would he lie and say he was scared during the time he was exclaiming how he was the baddest around, and wasn't scared of anything. Read bad intentions, he got scared a lot, especially early on



Well before he trained in Boxing by Cus, he was just a fat kid in somewhat like an orphanage in the Bronx. He was probably bullied and sexually raped by older boys. So I don't doubt him being afraid in certain situations that triggers childhood memories. You're probably just taking things way out of context.

But fear is common. Everyone has fears. I'm sure Tyson would fear walking down a dark, deserted alley late at night by himself, as would most of us. The difference is, he'd be more capable of handling an attack than most of us would be due to his skills and experience as a World Champion Fighter.




Not anymore than this anonymous Mz1 MMA guy and his personal experience is now the benchmark and final authority on this subject & debate now. Just giving an example to support an argument. 
Oh, and you saying I consider him the final authority is just lying. Show me where I said that. (see what I did there, using your own 'debating techniques' against you?)[/QUOTE]


----------



## Touch Of Death

Mz1 said:


> Well before he trained in Boxing by Cus, he was just a fat kid in somewhat like an orphanage in the Bronx. He was probably bullied and sexually raped by older boys. So I don't doubt him being afraid in certain situations that triggers childhood memories. You're probably just taking things way out of context.
> 
> But fear is common. Everyone has fears. I'm sure Tyson would fear walking down a dark, deserted alley late at night by himself, as would most of us. The difference is, he'd be more capable of handling an attack than most of us would be due to his skills and experience as a World Champion Fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not anymore than this anonymous Mz1 MMA guy and his personal experience is now the benchmark and final authority on this subject & debate now. Just giving an example to support an argument.
> Oh, and you saying I consider him the final authority is just lying. Show me where I said that. (see what I did there, using your own 'debating techniques' against you?)


[/QUOTE]
Not really! As I recall, he broke his hand in one strike, fighting some guy on the street, and if it were a multiple opponent situation, he would be just as ****ed as anyone else.


----------



## Tez3

Mz1 said:


> Well before he trained in Boxing by Cus, he was just a fat kid in somewhat like an orphanage in the Bronx. He was probably bullied and sexually raped by older boys. So I don't doubt him being afraid in certain situations that triggers childhood memories. You're probably just taking things way out of context.
> 
> But fear is common. Everyone has fears. I'm sure Tyson would fear walking down a dark, deserted alley late at night by himself, as would most of us. The difference is, he'd be more capable of handling an attack than most of us would be due to his skills and experience as a World Champion Fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not anymore than this anonymous Mz1 MMA guy and his personal experience is now the benchmark and final authority on this subject & debate now. Just giving an example to support an argument.
> Oh, and you saying I consider him the final authority is just lying. Show me where I said that. (see what I did there, using your own 'debating techniques' against you?)


[/QUOTE]


As opposed to Tyson who is a rapist.


----------



## Mz1

kempodisciple said:


> and since for some odd reason I have a feeling you'll tell me that a hit to the carotid artery or the windpipe is a 'ninja move', here you go:
> http://www.askthestreetfighter.com/combatmoves/strikeeffects/striking-carotid-arteries.php



I've been sidekick and superman punched, hard in the windpipe before (at least 4x with the SP) and it hardly even slowed me down let alone stop the hard sparring session. I didn't stand completely still like a punching bag to take the full hit....and this is where a lot of TMA people who never spars hard nor fight can ever understand.....based on how they get all riled up about how it's not possible to spar hard for KO's at least once a week because you'll get brain damage or die, etc....because during hard sparring for KO's, which is almost a full fight sometimes....an equally trained opponent doesn't just stand there and take the full hit. They're going to move, block, counter, etc. 

 Afterward, when I was in the shower, it felt like I had a sore throat and it went away in about 2 days. No biggie. I'd be more worried about an air choke such as a guillotine when it attacks the windpipe. That's why we try not to go all out using these during training.

And good luck doing the Spock strike in a real fight.   If you can pull it off, millions of dollars and worldwide fame for yourself and your style of MA...including, shutting up all MMA and anti-TMA rantings.... awaits in the UFC when you Spock-KO all the champions there to take their titles.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Mz1 said:


> I've been sidekick and superman punched, hard in the windpipe before (at least 4x with the SP) and it hardly even slowed me down let alone stop the hard sparring session. I didn't stand completely still like a punching bag to take the full hit....and this is where a lot of TMA people who never spars hard nor fight can ever understand.....based on how they get all riled up about how it's not possible to spar hard for KO's at least once a week because you'll get brain damage or die, etc....because during hard sparring for KO's, which is almost a full fight sometimes....an equally trained opponent doesn't just stand there and take the full hit. They're going to move, block, counter, etc.
> 
> Afterward, when I was in the shower, it felt like I had a sore throat and it went away in about 2 days. No biggie. I'd be more worried about an air choke such as a guillotine when it attacks the windpipe. That's why we try not to go all out using these during training.
> 
> And good luck doing the Spock strike in a real fight.   If you can pull it off, millions of dollars and worldwide fame for yourself and your style of MA...including, shutting up all MMA and anti-TMA rantings.... awaits in the UFC when you Spock-KO all the champions there to take their titles.


If you manage to successfully attack an artery in the neck, they will at the very least, black out for a second or two, and at the most die right there in front of you. I can only imagine they discourage those types of attacks in UFC type competitions. The reason you don't see it more often is because the powers that be don't want to see it. Just an aside, my step-father was stationed in Thai-Land during the Vietnam war, and death matches were happening all the time. It just isn't done here in the States.


----------



## Mz1

oaktree said:


> Hi mz1
> I guess we will agree to disagree.
> You might want to reflect on your negative status and
> How you present yourself on the forum.
> Anyway best of luck.



Ok, cool. And sorry if I get carried away sometimes with my sarcasm.


----------



## Mz1

Cirdan said:


> To get back on topic, my tip would be to let go of your ego.
> 
> (This may be a long journey if you are an insecure internet tough guy)




Yet you still managed to take a shot at me by calling me "an insecure internet tough guy" with your condescending post.

Sounds like you need to take your own advice as you're quite a hypocrite    I may have an ego, but I try to not be a hypocrite. 

Yet no one here will call you out on your condescension nor sarcasm but OTOH, are really quick to accuse me of such, due to their being grossly biased.  Thanks for proving my point.


----------



## Mz1

Gnarlie said:


> You said it fizzled OUT. That's saying it died.
> 
> I read what you wrote and understood it perfectly well, thanks.  It told me everything I need to know about you.



Fizzling out doesn't necessarily must mean dying out, although I don't hear much about JKD at all, since Bruce Lee died.



> There's nothing 'death touch' or 'ninja strike' about JKD or many other modern martial arts with their roots in tradition.
> 
> On the other hand, considering your closed-off attitude to everything other than the MMA sport syllabus and your own opinion, there's no reason you would know that fact.  Most closed-minded people learn very slowly and inefficiently. They think they know it all, but everyone else can see them for what they really are.
> 
> Gnarlie



I think you're close minded too, as MMA is always open to train techniques that works well.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Mz1 said:


> Yet you still managed to take a shot at me by calling me "an insecure internet tough guy" with your condescending post.



He made a generic statement, about something that is a good idea. Why would you think it was aimed at you, specifically?



Mz1 said:


> Sounds like you need to take your own advice as you're quite a hypocrite    I may have an ego, but I try to not be a hypocrite.
> 
> Yet no one here will call you out on your condescension nor sarcasm but OTOH, are really quick to accuse me of such, due to their being grossly biased.  Thanks for proving my point.



I going to suggest that you let go of your ego. And yes, this time the comment IS directed at you. I know for a fact that you do not have access to the moderator forums, so it's a safe bet that you have *no idea*, other than those ideas generated by your egocentrism, which users are reported and which ones are nudged/reprimanded/warned/suspended by the staff. My mother taught me not to talk about things when I'd be speaking from ignorance. I've always found that to be good advice.


----------



## Tez3

Mz1 said:


> Yet you still managed to take a shot at me by calling me "an insecure internet tough guy" with your condescending post.
> 
> Sounds like you need to take your own advice as you're quite a hypocrite  I may have an ego, but I try to not be a hypocrite.
> 
> Yet no one here will call you out on your condescension nor sarcasm but OTOH, are really quick to accuse me of such, due to their being grossly biased. Thanks for proving my point.



Actually he didn't call you anything, you need to re-read what Cirdan said. You are increasingly making personal attacks on posters here which to the 'grossly biased' types we are, is not the sign of someone who wants to engage in friendly discussion which is what we are all about.


----------



## bluewaveschool

You got hit with a lousy side kick.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Mz1 said:


> I've been sidekick and superman punched, hard in the windpipe before (at least 4x with the SP) and it hardly even slowed me down let alone stop the hard sparring session.


Wait wait wait, you've been successfully sidekicked and superman punched in the throat, and you say youre a good fighter where the hells your guard that you're letting them do this?


> And good luck doing the Spock strike in a real fight. If you can pull it off, millions of dollars and worldwide fame for yourself and your style of MA...including, shutting up all MMA and anti-TMA rantings.... awaits in the UFC when you Spock-KO all the champions there to take their titles.



first off, it's much easier to do when the person is surprised. If I were walking up to them, yes I could do it. If they were on guard, with their hands up, it would be to risky since i'd have to overextend for the hit (IMO), so I wouldn't do it. If i managed to get their hands down, like im sure the people who :mst: superman punched you in the neck :mst: must have done, then yes I'd do the strike. 

But still, not in the UFC. They're trying to win, not kill the opponent, which is a very real possibility if you do that strike too strongly. And if you don't do the strike strongly enough, you'll just be hit much much harder as you recover. So, risking a death or becoming a punching bag just for one strike? Yeah, not worth it.

And since other people have answered the Mike Tyson comment, I see no reason to reiterate what they said.


----------



## Mz1

Tez3 said:


> To be honest I wouldn't say his knowledge and practice of MMA is that great either, There's never a need to be defensive and insulting if you are confident of what you do.



I thought we went over this before as you are equally (actually more) defensive and insulting, and you even have admit to it.



> It's interesting that several of us are told _we_ don't understand what he's written or that _our _understanding is flawed.



Well you certainly didn't understand that a choke hold is a death technique. And you threw a fit when I said that Boxers spars hard for KO's often.



> we don't need a Tap Out wunderkind stirring it all up again, especially when his knowledge of MMA is incomplete.



"I also teach correct techniques to pro fighters as well as coach, ref  and corner them. I have extensive experience in professional MMA where,  here at least, we don't go for the postruing macho talk of 'death  moves', it's a technique that has various uses not just to 'kill'."


----------



## Mz1

> Not really! As I recall, he broke his hand in one strike, fighting some guy on the street, and if it were a multiple opponent situation, he would be just as ****ed as anyone else.



Notice how you've conveniently avoid the rest of my post and specifically where I asked you to cite the reference.

And are you trying to imply that someone like Tyson, shouldn't have any fear at all?


----------



## Mz1

> As opposed to Tyson who is a rapist.




Or just surprise sex. Tomato, tomato.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

bluewaveschool said:


> You got hit with a lousy side kick.


Maybe that's how they're able to spar hard all the time? Their hard doesn't seem to hurt anyone, if a sidekick to the throat doesnt hurt.


----------



## Flying Crane

Mz1 said:


> I've been sidekick and superman punched, hard in the windpipe before (at least 4x with the SP) and it hardly even slowed me down let alone stop the hard sparring session.



if it didn't stop the sparring session, then no, you did not get hit hard in the windpipe. You got hit softly in the windpipe.



> ...including, shutting up all MMA and anti-TMA rantings....



against my better judgement, I'll comment on this. It's the rantings. Nobody's got anything against MMA. But it's the rantings that are tedious and obnoxious. It's the people who come in and start badmouthing all things that they don't do, that is just boorish behavior. And it goes both ways: TMA people sometimes go on a bashing rant against MMA, and MMA people go on a bashing rant against TMA. They are both childish and obnoxious and ignorant and stupid and it doesnt reflect well on anyone who does it.

I'm reminded a bit of Ron Burgundy in Anchorman, when he just screwed up and told all of San Diego to Go F*** themselves on live TV. His co-worker was so upset he was almost crying, and Ron said to him, "Would it make you feel better if I gave you some cash from my wallet?"

Likewise: would you feel better about it if I just conceded and said, "yup, you're right, MMA rules and anyone who does TMA is a dupe and a sucker. I'll make the switch to my local MMA gym first thing in the morning."

ain't gonna happen. grow up.


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## Tez3

Mz1 said:


> Or just surprise sex. Tomato, tomato.




I expect it _is_ a surprise when you don't want it. Still makes it rape.

I hate to point this out but you are the newboy here, the one with no rep  etc. Why do you want to join us if you think we are so far beneath you? Trying to educate us? 
Btw I don't have to admit to anything. If you think someone has insulted you report it. There's rules here, you have a choice, follow or leave, up to you.


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## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> To be honest I wouldn't say his knowledge and practice of MMA is that great either, There's never a need to be defensive and insulting if you are confident of what you do. It's interesting that several of us are told _we_ don't understand what he's written or that _our _understanding is flawed. sadly I think we understand all too well. I'd thought that at MT we had come to understand the differences between MMA and TMA and the things that are alike and we'd respected both, we don't need a Tap Out wunderkind stirring it all up again, especially when his knowledge of MMA is incomplete.



Too true. I've had some great advice and learned a lot here at MT, not least how to separate legitimate martial artists from teenagers living in their mother's basement.

Sadly martial arts, traditional or otherwise, attracts a certain element. It's the reason threads like this exist, and the reason MA is so political. 

One of the most important ancillary martial skills is deciding who's advice is worth having, and whose is not.

People only have a voice if you're willing to let them have one. They earn their right to that voice by their conduct.

Gnarlie


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## bluewaveschool

I've had a lead leg side kick put through my guard onto my chin (I was a green belt, so not that experienced sparring).  I hit the ground like a rock.  3 out of 4 times I've been hit hard enough that I couldn't continue involved a side kick.  The other time, I got headbutted.  That hurt like hell.


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## Mz1

Touch Of Death said:


> If you manage to successfully attack an artery in the neck, they will at the very least, black out for a second or two, and at the most die right there in front of you. I can only imagine they discourage those types of attacks in UFC type competitions. The reason you don't see it more often is because the powers that be don't want to see it. Just an aside, my step-father was stationed in Thai-Land during the Vietnam war, and death matches were happening all the time. It just isn't done here in the States.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs9dmw-i4M4&feature=fvwrel

Oyata is demonstrating this on Kyoshi, Peter Polander multiple times. I've trained with Polander before and have no doubt that he's legit.

This strike is certainly legal in the UFC up until today, especially early UFC's and no doubt, UFC 1-4 where biting & eye gouging only gets you fined.


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## Mz1

Dirty Dog said:


> He made a generic statement, about something that is a good idea. Why would you think it was aimed at you, specifically?



I think he just doesn't know how to use the quote function.



> I going to suggest that you let go of your ego. And yes, this time the comment IS directed at you. I know for a fact that you do not have access to the moderator forums, so it's a safe bet that you have *no idea*, other than those ideas generated by your egocentrism, which users are reported and which ones are nudged/reprimanded/warned/suspended by the staff. My mother taught me not to talk about things when I'd be speaking from ignorance. I've always found that to be good advice.



But are you really serious about thinking that his post wasn't directed towards me?  Who else would you think that he was talking about?

Even he wasn't referring to me, my comment about his being a hypocrite still stand based on what he ended with in that post.


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## bluewaveschool

Mz1 said:


> Or just surprise sex. Tomato, tomato.




I'm done.


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## Mz1

Tez3 said:


> Actually he didn't call you anything, you need to re-read what Cirdan said. You are increasingly making personal attacks on posters here which to the 'grossly biased' types we are, is not the sign of someone who wants to engage in friendly discussion which is what we are all about.




I'm all for that, but this may be a long journey for you if you are an insecure internet tough girl.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Mz1 said:


> Notice how you've conveniently avoid the rest of my post and specifically where I asked you to cite the reference.
> 
> And are you trying to imply that someone like Tyson, shouldn't have any fear at all?



The above quote has nothing to do with fear, just saying that against multiple people, he would have had a broken hand.
as for the reference: for the things I wrote, simply read bad intentions, pretty sure that has most of it in it. As for the broken hand, 
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2245&dat=19880824&id=ChkzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=0DIHAAAAIBAJ&pg=6836,2989500
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/15004/TYSON-BREAKS-RIGHT-HAND-IN-STREET-FIGHT.html?pg=all
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...20wAAAAIBAJ&sjid=HzYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3187,5560572
google it, the references are really easy to find.


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## Tez3

bluewaveschool said:


> I've had a lead leg side kick put through my guard onto my chin (I was a green belt, so not that experienced sparring). I hit the ground like a rock. 3 out of 4 times I've been hit hard enough that I couldn't continue involved a side kick. The other time, I got headbutted. That hurt like hell.



I can share that pain! A good side kick is a fight finisher. A headbutt (aka a Glasgow kiss) is also good for finishing things, our instructor showed us how to do one properly.

Perhaps that's the tip for fighting...being prepared to do anything to finish a fight? grabbing testicles, headbutting, pinching, poking, biting etc anything that you would normally refrain from doing? Not all of these may be effective, it really depends on the situation.
So quick thinking or instinctive action or perhaps both are best for fighting 'for real'?


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## Mz1

kempodisciple said:


> Wait wait wait, you've been successfully sidekicked and superman punched in the throat, and you say youre a good fighter where the hells your guard that you're letting them do this?



Hard to explain since you don't spar hard nor fight. But in short, only Ninjas never get hit.



> first off, it's much easier to do when the person is surprised. If I were walking up to them, yes I could do it. If they were on guard, with their hands up, it would be to risky since i'd have to overextend for the hit (IMO), so I wouldn't do it.



Thanks for explaining to me what a suckerpunch on an unexpecting victim is.



> If i managed to get their hands down, like im sure the people who [/COLOR]:mst: superman punched you in the neck :mst: must have done, then yes I'd do the strike.



My hands are down often, as there's a reason for it.



> But still, not in the UFC. They're trying to win, not kill the opponent, which is a very real possibility if you do that strike too strongly. And if you don't do the strike strongly enough, you'll just be hit much much harder as you recover. So, risking a death or becoming a punching bag just for one strike? Yeah, not worth it.



Oh baloney.


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## Tez3

Mz1 said:


> I'm all for that, but this may be a long journey for you if you are an insecure internet tough girl.



Oh good grief, the last thing I am is insecure roflmao. Tough, yeah probably but then I've had sooooo many years to practice, girl...no, trust me, I'm all woman :whip1:


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## Flying Crane

anyone care to place a wager on how long Mz1 will last here on Martialtalk before he gets his walking papers?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Mz1 said:


> Hard to explain since you don't spar hard nor fight. But in short, only Ninjas never get hit.



Actually, I do spar hard, just not often at all, and as recently mentioned, I've trained with professional kickboxers.




> Thanks for explaining to me what a suckerpunch on an unexpecting victim is.



You're quite welcome. Especially since I'm doing it after, according to you, I'm "walking up to Tyson and poking him in the eyes", might as well be effective if I'm going to surprise attack him.





> My hands are down often, as there's a reason for it.



and that reason is? From my experience, your hands should be up, otherwise you could, you know, get sidekicked in the neck (or the face since you don't seem to think the neck is an effective target).





> Oh baloney.


Which parts baloney? Not wanting to kill people? or not wanting to make weak punches, allowing you to get trashed on?


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## Bob Hubbard

****Thread Locked Pending Staff Review****


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