# It's TSD....



## Manny (Nov 26, 2008)

It's TSD more japanese alike than korean alike? It's seems TSD derives form Shotokan in some way, Am I right? I mean the technikes and movements seems to me like some shotokan.

Pardon me if I'm a wrong.

Manny


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## hkfuie (Nov 26, 2008)

Derived from Shotokan...That's the story I've always heard.


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## terryl965 (Nov 26, 2008)

hkfuie said:


> Derived from Shotokan...That's the story I've always heard.


 
Same here it keep more of the Self Defense aspect to it.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 26, 2008)

Gichin Funakoshi wrote a book in 1922 about Okinawan Karate.  Hwang Kee found this book in a library and learned much about the art that we call TSD.  I have heard, but it is not substantiated, that Hwang Kee trained for 1-2 years with Won Kuk Lee a Nidan in Shotokan.  Thus, the art that we train in is a direct derivative of Shotokan.  In fact, TSD is a simplified version of Shotokan.  The body mechanics taught in Shotokan are more subtle then what we have traditionally been taught in TSD.


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## MBuzzy (Nov 27, 2008)

I hate to be the other side here....and of course, this is very school specific, but there is some chinese influence in there as well.  Korea, even since the three kingdoms period (dating back to 57B.C.) has been heavily chinese influenced.  GM Hwang Kee also lived and worked, and allegedly studied martial arts in China.  

While the STRONG Japanese/Okinawan influence cannot be denied (in the form of primarily Shotokan), I don't believe that the Chinese influence can be dismissed either.  The Japanese occupation really solidified Japan's place in Korea's history and their influence is evident in many aspects of Korean life, particularly the martial arts.  

I don't believe that any organization/school which still practices the Chil Sung or Yuk Ro forms can deny Chinese influence.

I'm done on the soap box here....I agree that TSD has a strong influence from Japanese Martial Arts, particularly shotokan and is very easily evident in many techniques.  (But that's not all)


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## Makalakumu (Nov 27, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> I hate to be the other side here....and of course, this is very school specific, but there is some chinese influence in there as well.  Korea, even since the three kingdoms period (dating back to 57B.C.) has been heavily chinese influenced.  GM Hwang Kee also lived and worked, and allegedly studied martial arts in China.
> 
> While the STRONG Japanese/Okinawan influence cannot be denied (in the form of primarily Shotokan), I don't believe that the Chinese influence can be dismissed either.  The Japanese occupation really solidified Japan's place in Korea's history and their influence is evident in many aspects of Korean life, particularly the martial arts.
> 
> ...



Very true.  Chinese martial art influences were brought into TSD after it was founded.  The Chil Sung and Yuk Ro hyungs are a blend of Chinese and Japanese techniques.


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## Montecarlodrag (Nov 27, 2008)

TSD shares roots with Shotokan, but it is not in any way a direct descendant from Shotokan, at least not the TSD I know and train.

I have never seen SK kicks similar to TSD's in height, power and variety. They don't use the hip for kicking, at least I havent seen any SK using it.
We also use weapons, while SK does not (Empty Hand). Nunchaku and Bong are of chinese origin, while Katana is Japanese and Knife is common use.

I have trained with Shotokan senseis for a while and despite being similar, the two arts have different styles. SK movements are very short and strong, while TSD's are much softer and elaborated, somewhat mixed between Kung Fu and shotokan.

You can't deny the chinese roots in TSD. In a simple defense like a Ha Dan Soo Do, the shotokan performs it in a straight line, while TSD performs it in a circular path (and longer hand travel).

I'm not saying either one is better than the other. They are just different.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 28, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> TSD shares roots with Shotokan, but it is not in any way a *direct* descendant from Shotokan, at least not the TSD I know and train.


 
A lot of this depends on how you define direct.  From my research, I can tell you that TSD is a variation of Shotokan.  We share almost all of our forms (minus Chil Sung and Yuk Ro) and we practice them with very little variation in technique.  Further, the way that our art is taught and the way the curriculum is structured is a direct reflection of Shotokan.  Kihon, Kata, and Kumite are directly analagous to Gicho, Hyung, and Deh Ryun.  Having trained in Shotokan for four years, I've seen it from the inside and IMHO, the two arts are very close cousins.



Montecarlodrag said:


> I have never seen SK kicks similar to TSD's in height, power and variety. They don't use the hip for kicking, at least I havent seen any SK using it.


 
There are several differences between TSD and Shotokan.  One of them is the emphasis on the use of hip.  In TSD, hip rotation is encouraged on every single technique.  In Shotokan, hip rotation is encourage when appropriate.  Also, there are several different ways of rotating the hips in shotokan.  It all depends on what you are doing with the technique.  

TSD also has many more kicking techniques then Shotokan.  I'm not sure this is a good thing as many of these kicking techniques are of very little practical value.  Also, they don't seem to fit the character of the rest of the art.  



Montecarlodrag said:


> We also use weapons, while SK does not (Empty Hand). Nunchaku and Bong are of chinese origin, while Katana is Japanese and Knife is common use.


 
TSD is an empty handed art.  Hwang Kee and several other KJNs who contributed to the founding of the art, have written about this specifically in their books.  All weapons come from outside sources.  There are no traditional weapons that were passed down from the founders.  

With that being said, I see nothing wrong with adding weapon components to TSD.  In fact, I think that it is essential.  My teacher is a maestro in Arnis De Mano and we learned many different kinds of weapons from him during the course of our training.

Also, there are courses of traditional Okinawan Kobudo that share lineage with our forms.  This means that you can't understand the usage of empty hand without understanding the usage of the weapons.  This is an interesting area of research because this information was not transferred in Shotokan or TSD.



Montecarlodrag said:


> I have trained with Shotokan senseis for a while and despite being similar, the two arts have different styles. SK movements are very short and strong, while TSD's are much softer and elaborated, somewhat mixed between Kung Fu and shotokan.


 
I don't see that.  Having trained in both arts, I've learned that for most of it, only the names have been changed.  Japanese to Korean.  The movements themselves have a more circular feel to them.  I would argue that this is more from the desire to emulate CMA then from any actual direct influence.  The only area where you see any actual CMA technique is in the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro hyung.  That is obviously a mix of Japanese and Chinese and a lot of the movements are just now being taught along side the traditional Shotokan basics that most tangsoodoin learn.



Montecarlodrag said:


> You can't deny the chinese roots in TSD. In a simple defense like a Ha Dan Soo Do, the shotokan performs it in a straight line, while TSD performs it in a circular path (and longer hand travel).


 
All of this stems from a desire to emulate CMA, not from any influence, as I stated above.  In addition, I'd like to point out that the difference really is trivial unless you can practically explain why that difference is important.  Does the linear vs circular really matter in how you apply the technique?  

Ha Dan Soo Do is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.  Most tangsoodoin have no idea what that technique is actually doing and they have no idea why practicing it circular would aid them in doing anything.  Hell, Hwang Kee's book shows this technique as a "block" for a simultaneous punch and kick.



Montecarlodrag said:


> I'm not saying either one is better than the other. They are just different.


 
Lest my comments be taken in a negative manner, let me add that I am also not saying one is better then the other.  They both evolved and modified Okinawan Karate.  Okinawan Karate evolved and modified other things.  When it comes to TSD, and to a lesser extent, Shotokan, a lot of the context form the source was lost.  That is why studying this is so important.


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## MBuzzy (Nov 28, 2008)

I will have to agree with maunakumu here.  I feel that the Shotokan influence is much stronger than the Chinese influence.  It can be seen in almost every technique we do.



> I have never seen SK kicks similar to TSD's in height, power and variety. They don't use the hip for kicking, at least I havent seen any SK using it.
> We also use weapons, while SK does not (Empty Hand). Nunchaku and Bong are of chinese origin, while Katana is Japanese and Knife is common use.



Just because the kicks are higher and there are more, takes nothing away from the influences of the art.  Even the hips, we may exaggerate more, but it doesn't change the fact that the rest of the technique is a very close cousin to shotokan.  And that is true, TSD is also an empty handed art.


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## Montecarlodrag (Nov 28, 2008)

I agree with some statements posted here, but not with all. We may know different TSD styles however. 

While I understand the shared roots with shotokan, I don't agree TSD is just another variation of shotokan. Even TSD and TKD aren't 2 variations of the same art. TKD is closer related to Shotokan, but it is more different to it than TSD.

Hyungs have the same origin, but they were not taken directly from SK, they are of Okinawan origin. Pure Okinawan arts themselves have high chinese influence. It is widely accepted that most martial arts have Chinese origin, with own independent development which makes them different and special.
If you take into account the date of foundation of modern TSD, 50+ years of independent development can make 2 arts very different at the end even if they were identical at the beginning.

My TSD IS NOT an empty handed art. Part of our curriculum is the use of several weapons and learn defense against them. You can't get a Black belt without knowing them. Shotokan uses none
Knife defense once saved my life. I disarmed a guy with a blade and knocked him out, then his partner. I got hurt, but I was ok.
Of course weapons came from outside sources, that's what makes TSD different. (As a matter of fact, several weapons have unknown origins).

We know:
7 Bong hyungs, not as spectacular as chinese equivalents but they are nice.
20 1-step bong sparring.
10 knife Ho Sin Sul techniques.
3 knife huyngs, I have not seen them anywhere else.
3 nunchaku hyungs (very hard to master indeed).
3 katana hyungs (I only know 1).
This is as far as the 4th Dan my sa Bom Nim holds, don't know how much awaits in higher ranks.
All the hyungs need previous knowledge and practice of the weapon movements and strikes, they aren't just for show. I can take a knife and tear appart somebody in seconds. We use REAL katanas, real nunchakus, all is real. My personal Bo is a metallic pipe, I wouldn't want to be striken with it.
If this is an empty handed art, I'm living a lie.

The term Tang-Soo was later changed to Kara-Te by Shotokan masters in order to delete all Chinese origin. Chinese-Hand became Empty-hand, but TSD was not affected with that change.

As for the kicking, the kicks talk for themselves.

Regards.


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## Montecarlodrag (Nov 28, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Even the hips, we may exaggerate more, but it doesn't change the fact that the rest of the technique is a very close cousin to shotokan.


 
Try to break 3 boards with no hip.
Try again with same kick, but using hip.

As a matter of fact, hips aren't used only for kicking, we use them also for hand strikes. Just look a baseball pitcher, try to imagine pitching without hip.


So, it's not just exaggeration... it's body mechanics.


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## MBuzzy (Nov 28, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> While I understand the shared roots with shotokan, I don't agree TSD is just another variation of shotokan. Even TSD and TKD aren't 2 variations of the same art. TKD is closer related to Shotokan, but it is more different to it than TSD.



I agree, TSD is not a variation, I think that we're simply saying that it is influenced by Shotokan.  There has definitely been an evolution and changes to the techniques in Shotokan.  No doubt there.



Montecarlodrag said:


> Hyungs have the same origin, but they were not taken directly from SK, they are of Okinawan origin. Pure Okinawan arts themselves have high chinese influence. It is widely accepted that most martial arts have Chinese origin, with own independent development which makes them different and special.
> If you take into account the date of foundation of modern TSD, 50+ years of independent development can make 2 arts very different at the end even if they were identical at the beginning.



Again, agreed.  I don't think that anyone is trying to say that they were taken directly with no changes or evolution.  TSD is an obviously different style, but it takes influences and material from other sources.  Even when TSD was created, the hyung used were not directly taken from shotokan, they were more like translations....taking one kata and changing it to translate it into a new "language."







Montecarlodrag said:


> My TSD IS NOT an empty handed art. Part of our curriculum is the use of several weapons and learn defense against them. You can't get a Black belt without knowing them. Shotokan uses none
> Knife defense once saved my life. I disarmed a guy with a blade and knocked him out, then his partner. I got hurt, but I was ok.
> Of course weapons came from outside sources, that's what makes TSD different. (As a matter of fact, several weapons have unknown origins).
> 
> ...



Again, no one has said that TSD is NOW a solely empty handed art.  TSD has evolved a great deal since its inception.  In fact, between Soo Bahk Do and Tang Soo Do, it has grown into two almost completely separate art.  While many schools do incorporate weapons now (which I personally agree with, because as John said, all styles should have some weapon training), when TSD was created in 1947, it DID NOT have weapons.  The weapons that have been added came in from other sources.  Even though they may be created for use in TSD, the training of the people who created the weapon curriculum must have come from other places, because Hwang Kee's original vision did not involve weapons.  Incidentally, the US Soo Bahk Do Federation (which is the direct descendent of Hwang Kee's original Tang Soo Do) is still a strictly empty handed style, though it does teach many weapon defenses, just not offense and use.



Montecarlodrag said:


> The term Tang-Soo was later changed to Kara-Te by Shotokan masters in order to delete all Chinese origin. Chinese-Hand became Empty-hand, but TSD was not affected with that change.
> 
> As for the kicking, the kicks talk for themselves.



This part interests me GREATLY.  I really don't understand this comment.  Tang-Soo is not a Japanese word, it is Korean, specifically Hanmun.  It is the translation of the Chinese characters that represent Kara-Te.  Now in the Japanese Kanji use of the words, you are correct that Master Gichin Funakoshi changed the Kanji characters (Chinese characters used in Korea) for Karate.  It was always pronounced the same (it did not change from Karate when the characters were changed), but the first character changed from the one that represented China to the one that represented empty.  You are right that it changed, but if you reference Funakoshi's book "Karate-Do, My Way of Life" he specifically talks about why he changed those characters and how long it took to get the change recognized and widely used.  It had more to do with what Karate was than eliminating Chinese references.  The Okinawan Karate that Funakoshi taught (which eventually evolved into Shotokan) did not have Chinese influence...and if it did, certainly no recognizable influence.  In fact, I have _heard _that Okinawan Martial Arts evolved independently from Chinese...though this claim is uncorroborated and without support.

As for the Korea history....The names have evolved and changed quite a bit.  There were of course the historical "basis" of the style, in Tae-Kyon, Subak, Hwa-Rang, etc (yes, I know that the lineage can't be supported, I'm talking solely about naming here).  But when Hwang Kee initially started his art, it was called Kong Soo Do (the original name of the Kwan) and was changed to Moo Duk Kwan very quickly.  The style name changed to Tang Soo Do, then Soo Bahk Do, then BACK to Tang Soo Do (then the older Masters started splitting off from Hwang Kee's parent organization), then back to Soo Bahk Do during the "copyright battles."  

If you wouldn't mind, could you please clarify your comments on the evolution of the naming?  I do see a direct connection to how Shotokan has influenced TSD, because if the change in characters was related to TSD, then Funakoshi's Shotokan would seem to be MORE closely related than I thought - historically at least.


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## MBuzzy (Nov 28, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> Try to break 3 boards with no hip.
> Try again with same kick, but using hip.
> 
> As a matter of fact, hips aren't used only for kicking, we use them also for hand strikes. Just look a baseball pitcher, try to imagine pitching without hip.
> ...



Agreed, I mis-spoke, exaggeration is not the word that I was looking for.  I agree that the use of Hu-ri is an anatomical principle and not simply an exaggeration of movement (although I would argue that some practitioners take this movement beyong mechanics into exaggeration through hyperextension).

It is true that hips are used in almost every technique in TSD - and for good reason.  But many Japanese arts do not use the hip in the way that we do, their power generation comes from other sources and their style is no less effective.  That is one of the major translational changes between the Japanese influence and the Korean interpretation, the addition of hu-ri.  And LOTS of hu-ri.

I do have a hard time doing techniques without hip....but then, I've seen plenty of Japanese practitioners break plenty of boards....and baseball bats....and plenty of other inanaimate objects with much less hip than I am used to seeing.


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## Montecarlodrag (Nov 28, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> I agree, TSD is not a variation, I think that we're simply saying that it is influenced by Shotokan. There has definitely been an evolution and changes to the techniques in Shotokan. No doubt there.


Yes, of course it is influenced by Shotokan. There is historical evidence to support that.



> This part interests me GREATLY. I really don't understand this comment. Tang-Soo is not a Japanese word, it is Korean, specifically Hanmun. It is the translation of the Chinese characters that represent Kara-Te. Now in the Japanese Kanji use of the words, you are correct that Master Gichin Funakoshi changed the Kanji characters (Chinese characters used in Korea) for Karate. It was always pronounced the same (it did not change from Karate when the characters were changed), but the first character changed from the one that represented China to the one that represented empty. You are right that it changed, but if you reference Funakoshi's book "Karate-Do, My Way of Life" he specifically talks about why he changed those characters and how long it took to get the change recognized and widely used. It had more to do with what Karate was than eliminating Chinese references. The Okinawan Karate that Funakoshi taught (which eventually evolved into Shotokan) did not have Chinese influence...and if it did, certainly no recognizable influence. In fact, I have _heard _that Okinawan Martial Arts evolved independently from Chinese...though this claim is uncorroborated and without support.


 
I mean, the word came from china, also the characters TSD uses. If you spell the original word Tang Soo written &#21776;&#25163;, it sounds the same as the japanese, but written with different characters. As far as I know, the japanese characters came from the original word from China. It's like a phonetic adaptation. The Hangul symbols &#45817;&#49688;&#46020; came later, but they didn't change the meaning, they are just a translation.



> As for the Korea history....The names have evolved and changed quite a bit. There were of course the historical "basis" of the style, in Tae-Kyon, Subak, Hwa-Rang, etc (yes, I know that the lineage can't be supported, I'm talking solely about naming here). But when Hwang Kee initially started his art, it was called Kong Soo Do (the original name of the Kwan) and was changed to Moo Duk Kwan very quickly. The style name changed to Tang Soo Do, then Soo Bahk Do, then BACK to Tang Soo Do (then the older Masters started splitting off from Hwang Kee's parent organization), then back to Soo Bahk Do during the "copyright battles."


There is no evidence to support TSD was developed from Tae kyon, Hwa Rang Do or anything else than okinawan and chinese arts (with japanese influence). But, the philosophy, development and tradition of TSD is based on those ancient arts and their historical heritage.



> If you wouldn't mind, could you please clarify your comments on the evolution of the naming? I do see a direct connection to how Shotokan has influenced TSD, because if the change in characters was related to TSD, then Funakoshi's Shotokan would seem to be MORE closely related than I thought - historically at least.


There is a direct influence from Shotokan to TSD.
The change in characters was related to the meaning of the word itself, not by the existence of the TSD art.
The spelling of the word &#21776;&#25163; is still valid. I asked a chinese friend I have on MSN, and he gave me the same traduction we know.
Don't remember where, but I read that the word &#21776;&#25163; is referenced in some ancient texts as well as archeologic writtings (of course, not linked to any martial art). Hwang Kee took the word because of its meaning and used it to name his art.
The same word was changed by japanese to give it different meaning and different characters. One of the supposed reasons was to erase any conection with China, because there is long history of conflict, war and invasions between China, Korea, Japan and Okinawa.


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## MBuzzy (Nov 28, 2008)

Montecarlo,

Thank you for the clarification.  Sounds like we have the same understanding.  I do with that there was more documentation for the ancient arts though.  I sounds like it all has to do with the translations from Chinese to Japanese (Kanji) and from Chinese to Korean (Hanja).

I do not know when Hwang Kee began using the character for Tang, whether it was before or after the change, but it is interesting that he chose to stay with the original "Tang" or "Kara" character instead of the Empty or "Kara" character.


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## arnisador (Nov 28, 2008)

Manny said:


> It's TSD more japanese alike than korean alike? It's seems TSD derives form Shotokan in some way, Am I right? I mean the technikes and movements seems to me like some shotokan.



Yes, absolutely. The techniques are primarily derived from Japanese Karate (with other influences from Japan and China). Its later development has made it a distinct art.


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## astrobiologist (Nov 28, 2008)

Hey everyone!  I've been away for a while.  I'm working on applying to grad school...

I'm not the expert here (i've not trained in Shotokan or a CMA directly), but from what I've learned TSD is a direct descendant from Shotokan.  There is a lot about TSD that is different, but the forms and much of the basic technique comes from shotokan.  It is also true that shotokan itself is a descendant of okinawan arts, which in turn have taken a lot from china and the phillapenes.

To this idea that TSD includes weapons...  That's just wrong.  Many TSD schools teach weapons, and I believe they should as well but TSD does not originally include weapons at all.  All of TSD gven to us by Hwang Kee is an empty hand art.  All the TSD schools I've been to or seen have some weapons included.  I've noticed a lot of the baton twirling kind of stuff, but some schools have rreally good weapons systems included.  For instance, at my school we are teaching okinawan jobujutsu with a bit of arnis.  

This argument seems to keep popping up.  Remeber to be humble.  It's okay to admit that TSD wasn't just created out of thin air...  If yout hink about it, it's really cool that so many of the martial arts of the world are so connected.


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## Montecarlodrag (Nov 29, 2008)

Well, for me there is a huge difference between direct descendant and being influenced/enriched by.

I found this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shito_Ryu , it's not about Shotokan, but it's about Shito Ryu, a contemporary art with similar roots. The article mentions the change from chinese Hand to Empty Hand:



> By 1929, Mabuni had moved to Osaka on the mainland, to become a full-time karate instructor of a style he originally called Hanko-ryu, or "half-hard style". In an effort to gain acceptance in the Japanese Butokukai, the governing body for all officially recognized martial arts in that country, he and his contemporaries decided to call their art "Karate" or "Empty Hand," rather than "Chinese Hand," perhaps to make it sound more Japanese


 
The founder of MODERN TSD is Hwang Kee, but he is not the only one involved. As all MA, many masters were involved in the development of the art.

Shotokan influenced TSD during the WWII, when all Korean art were banned. Japanese military tried to erase any not japanese MA.
Most people think TSd is a direct descendant from shotokan because we use many hyungs which are the same (Pyung Ahn/Pinan/Heian). Remember ALL those forms are OKINAWAN in origin, and they were adpoted when Shotokan was founded. Right, the katas were "imported" from okinawa to Japan more directly, while TSD Pyung Ahn were not as direct.

Telling TSD is a direct descendant from SK is like telling Korea had no Martial Arts at all, which isn't true. Korea had it's own MA development, and one of it's arts (TSD) was highly influenced by it's neighbors, China and Japan.
If that was the case, we could say all Martial Arts are direct descendants from Chinese Kung Fu...


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## Makalakumu (Nov 29, 2008)

In almost every way imaginable, TSD mimics Shotokan.  Having trained in both systems, I can tell you for fact that there are few differences other then the focus on kicks.  We not only share hyungs and basics, we also share the very structure of our curriculum.  Kihon, Kata, and Kumite are the fundamentals of Karate just as Gicho, Hyung, and Deh Ryun.  Only the names have been changed.  And the connections go deeper then that.  Philosophically, the very same aspects that made Shotokan a form of gendai budo are present in TSD.  Funakoshi's concept of "do" is present in TSD in almost every way.

The reason why this is so is because Hwang Kee and others learned some aspects of Japanese Martial Arts and started teaching in Korea.  Hwang Kee admitted that he took most of the information on the creation of the art from Funakoshi's book Ryukyu Kempo Karate which he wrote in 1922.  Having read this book and having read much of Hwang Kee's writing, you can see the influence directly.  It's not plagiarized, but it is obvious that the imspiration and impetus behind TSD is Shotokan.  

It is not historically supported to say that TSD may have come from Okinawa.  Okinawan Karate went to Japan and became "Japanized" then it was imported entirely intact to Korea and became "Koreanized".  The amount of Koreanization is debateable.  I don't see very much at all.  And from what I do see, it almost seems haphazard as if its basis is more in misunderstanding then in any sort of real cultural influence.  

This is one of the reasons why I started the other thread on just how "Korean" is TSD.  I'm genuinely curious about just how much Korean there really is in TSD.  Right now, I don't see much, but maybe I'm not seeing it correctly.  I've never been to Korea, so I don't really know what to look for.


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