# Kenpoist With a Problem



## ob2c (Jul 31, 2003)

Some of you may have seen my post in the Kenpo Technical forum. Basically, I've been working out with some Kali guys in another town, fighting with padded sticks. And I'm getting hammered! I think part of my problem may be that I fight in a 45' stance, and when I swing through it leaves my whole right side open to attack. But that is the stance I'm comfortable with, so I allways seem to end up back in it even if I start out more square to my opponent. Is there any way to make this work, or should I just work on staying squared off to him?

Next question: after the last session, they gave me a pointer on striking. They said to first thrust the arm forward like a punch or a block, then whip the wrist to make the strike. I've been working a little on this, and it seems that it should make me a little less open than just swinging through. Is this correct? Also, I think I'm seeing how they redirect their strikes here. If you first thrust forward, the strike could then be whiped in any direction, as opposed to being commited in a swing. It seems that deploying the fist, then the strike, allows a quicker recovery. Also a block could be made into a strike (and probably the other way around too). Is it adviseable to try this as an untrained stick fighter, or would you recomend just targeting a strike and quickly retracting?

Any help will be greatly appreciated, as I'm getting more sore every time I go there.


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## Cthulhu (Aug 1, 2003)

With this stance, are you holding the stick in your lead or rear hand?

Cthulhu


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## ob2c (Aug 1, 2003)

Lead mostly. I tried it both ways, but they hold it in their lead hand. They said this is to give it range- the stick is a long range weapon primarily so they said don't shorten it by holding it back. They were right (no great surprise there). Also, when I try to guard with the lead hand and hold the stick back you can probably guess what got hit first. So that's where I've been practicing holding it this week is in the lead hand.


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## Cthulhu (Aug 1, 2003)

You can swing through and still not leave yourself so open by tightening your arc.  I don't have the ability to describe this, but the advice you've been given so far seems to be along the same lines.

Cthulhu


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## clapping_tiger (Aug 1, 2003)

It sounds as though you may perhaps be giving them room to hit you. Remember the Outer Rim (to put it in Kenpo terms). Even with a stick or knife, keep your blocks and strikes within that zone. I don't know if that may be the problem or not. But from the description of your problem that is what I pictured.



> You can swing through and still not leave yourself so open by tightening your arc. I don't have the ability to describe this, but the advice you've been given so far seems to be along the same lines.


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## OULobo (Aug 1, 2003)

Just a general suggestion, you may want to try closing distance to trapping range. A few FMAs have been designed to beat other FMAs by getting to trapping range to throw off the techniques that require too much space. 

Remember that the most deadly thing in a knifefight isn't the knife, it's the open hand that isn't being whatched. Use your hands, especially as a kempoist. 

Also, how are defending? You may want to focus on body movement to avoid strikes and less on blocking with the stick. Sticks hurt everywhere, but do significant damage only in cetain areas, like joints, head and vitals. Leave the stick blocking to those areas. 

Just some suggestions from my limited experience. Give'em a try and see if they work for you.


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## streetwise (Aug 1, 2003)

I haven't seen you in action, so this may be off base, but are you keeping your elbow down and in when you strike? Don't get silly about it, and strike like it is superglued to your side, but try keeping the elbow of the striking arm in, use the hips for power, but with more snap, less sweep. Don't know if that make sense, but it should keep your stick "in the game" a bit more, and help your defense.


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 1, 2003)

Parker style Kenpo principles still apply when stick fighting but you have to adjust for the new rules/enviroment of the fight.  Since the weapon is now long and can quickly change directions you have to be careful about giving your opponent your lead leg.  The most important thing that I've found is that if I get my "live hand" (the hand without the stick) involved and start checking well and appropriately I can find a kenpo advantage in a stick fight.  

Learn what you can from your FMA friends its fun and worth while and they have a lot to offer.  Also go back to your Kenpo and apply its rules and principles and see if you can find an advantage.  Finally moving into trapping range is always useful and a lot of the EPAK techniques show how to do this and take advantage of it.

We have no FMA people here and I'm jealous of your opportunity. Have fun.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## arnisandyz (Aug 1, 2003)

Move your feet! What you need is mobility not a power base, hit while on the move.  You don't have time for stances, and if you do find yourself in a stance that your "comfortable with" as you mentioned, your staying there to long.  Work the angles and lines of attack/retreat/evasion - this is more important  that what stance your in.  

Andy


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## Ender (Aug 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *Move your feet! What you need is mobility not a power base, hit while on the move.  You don't have time for stances, and if you do find yourself in a stance that your "comfortable with" as you mentioned, your staying there to long.  Work the angles and lines of attack/retreat/evasion - this is more important  that what stance your in.
> 
> Andy *



exactly, from what I have studied on arnis, we were taught to constantly move. like fencing or boxing. don't say in neutral bow, kind of shorten it up a bit.


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## OULobo (Aug 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *
> We have no FMA people here and I'm jealous of your opportunity. Have fun.
> 
> ...



I see you are in Ohio. I am also and train alot in FMAs. Where exactly are you? I travel alot between Cleve./Columbus/Marietta/Akron/Youngstown.


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## Cruentus (Aug 1, 2003)

Fighting with padded sticks is a game of tag. Your "technique" isn't nearly as important in this case as your Timing and Spacial Positioning.

Example: Your striking a forehand strike (w/ padded stick) to his head, he shifts his body so you miss and slice through, then he leans forward while your striking through and hits you in the knee or head with a forehand strike. You see, there is no difference in technique here; they are both forehand strikes. The difference is in the spacial positioning and timing. He shifted back to move out of range, then shifted forward to move back in range and struck you, that's spacial positioning. By knowing exactly WHEN to shift back and forward so he could strike you is timing.

With a padded stick, you are basically playing what we call "Largo Mano" or long range fighting. This becomes almost strickly a spacial positioning and timing game (some use words like angling, or distancing to describe what I call spacial positioning). Now, there are certain fundamentals in technique that you could learn, but these would be difficult to learn over the internet. For the most part, you'll learn these on your own through trial and error. If you understand that this is a timing/spacial positioning game, then you have an edge over your opponent. You don't have to have superior timing or spacial positioning abilities to win, you just need to be able to recognize a weakness in the opponents timing/spacial positioning, or a "gap" or "window of opportunity", and you need to exploit that weakness.

Here are some other pointers that might help:

1. Stay mobile, and circle! Don't get caught up in only moving forward and backward.

2. Experiment with stances. If the person is far away, utilize a longer stance, but if the person is closer, use more of a boxing stance. No matter what you pick, be sure that you can move in and out of your stance with ease; that your not 'fixed'.

3. You don't need to get too low to the ground; your stick is long enough to protect your legs, and getting too low will reduce mobility, and expose your head more.

4. Don't block; strike. These are padded sticks, so you won't be able to utilize a "hard block" very effectively. So strike the wrist or limb instead of blocking. Or slip/move out of range, then return strike. If you think of striking and moving rather then blocking, you'll be better off in this case.

5. Unless your intentionally baiting him, make sure your attacking hand is your lead hand. You get better range this way, among other things.

6. Don't always do the same kind of strike. It sounds like your always "following through" or slicing through. Try to "snap hit" or strike and retract back to your original position. Otherwise, they will wait for your strike, and strike you as you slice through every time.

7. Don't "head hunt." Kali guys are head hunters, and the first thing they are taught is how to block or defend the head. Think of hands, knees, shins, elbows, and body as targets as well.

8. Learn to abort what your doing. Example: If I am striking to the head, as soon as I recognize that the head strike will not connect, I redirect and strike to the knee or hand, or another target depending on the opponents reaction. In other words, you have a padded stick. From a full power strike, you can snap that sucker back to your original position faster then you can your empty hand. Therefore, there is no reason to continuw to try to follow through on a strike that you know will not connect. Learn to abort!

9. Utilize the feint. Strike him in the knee. NO! Don't pretend to strike him there , actually strike him. However, your prepared for a block, or for him to move his body part (in this case, knee) out of range while attempting a follow-up strike. As he reacts to your initial strike, abort (as explained above) and counter.

10. Bait him. In other words, leave a target open that you know is open. When he strikes at that target, counter appropriately.

So, there is some advise.

Have fun!

 :duel:


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## ob2c (Aug 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *So, there is some advise. *



More like a primer on FMA! Thanks to all of you, I appreciate it. Gives me a few things to work on before entering the lions den next week. I'll let you know how it goes. And of course, any other pointers gladly taken!


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## dearnis.com (Aug 1, 2003)

cant add much to what Paul said, especially about the dymanics of padded sticks.  Try to get some mat time with an FMA stylist working drills and "real" sticks.  The benefits will be enormous.
Chad


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## haumana2000 (Aug 4, 2003)

I noticed that no one mentioned this so here it is..
When you swing the stick from an open to closed stance, use your left hand to stop the overswing by stopping your right bicep once it has passed your center. the centrifugal force will  take the stick into another angle of defense or attack. usually into the backhand figure 8.  practice for sparring by stepping forward and hitting, then on the figure 8 slide your lead foot back and let the stick redirect itself into the chambered position make sense?


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## ob2c (Aug 5, 2003)

*Went a LOT better tonight!*

THANKS! I tried some of your suggestions, and I'm not nearly as battered! In fact, the only really bad hit was a good size goose-egg on my right elbow. And I got a few in myself.

I was wrong about them redirecting strikes off the thrust, though. They said they don't do a lot of abenico, which is what my redirection is like. Their version is more a power strike on an upward angle, simulating an edged weapon strike.

Any how, I'm signed up for class this month. My Kenpo training partner quit (again), and most of the other ma's I work out with are off doing other things, so I think I'll see what this is about. And I'll keep working on your suggestions. Thanks again.


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## OULobo (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *Went a LOT better tonight!
> 
> Any how, I'm signed up for class this month. My Kenpo training partner quit (again), and most of the other ma's I work out with are off doing other things, so I think I'll see what this is about. And I'll keep working on your suggestions. Thanks again. *



Enjoy. The FMAs are the most fun martial art I have ever practiced. Take a look at the culture while you are learning the moves, if anyone at that school promotes the culture. 

ANOTHER ONE HAS COME TO THE DARK SIDE. :jediduel:


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## ob2c (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *Take a look at the culture while you are learning the moves, if anyone at that school promotes the culture. *



They do- in fact, the senior student and me are already exchanging reference materials. He's loaning me a book which includes culture, and they use cultural examples to explain diferences in styles and reasons for doing things. The terminology goes right past me, but they say I'll pick it up eventually. Could be interesting.


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