# Martial Arts and Children



## Genghis (Aug 2, 2006)

I'd like to expose my child to martial arts. Obviously each child is different, but I'm looking for introductory experiences not pretty colored belts or hard nosed drill camp. Although I've taught, I thought that it might be good to have her in a small class for the experience of group practice instead of just hitting her ol' Dad. 

She's interested, but questions remain: what age to start, style, and which association has a good rep for standardized dans with certification to teach kids, etc.

The best vibes I got were from a local USSB Kenpo dojo. Unfortunately, the on-line kenpo threads contain mostly trivial personal attacks with little on the subject of young martial artists or quality of organizations, particularly the USSB organization, which seems relatively large. I want simple martial arts exposure but know that times have changed since my first exposure to Judo & Isshinryu about 35 years ago. Also know the market talks, and bad organizations have a way of falling apart after a few years.

I'm planning on taking my daughter to a private lesson with USSB to check them out again, but I am always open to better ideas. Would greatly appreciate any useful thoughts on my questions regarding MA for kids ... especially from current dans who are uniquely qualified. It's not as simple as dropping the kid off at the Y, if any of you remember those days.

Thanks much. Best regards.


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## Carol (Aug 2, 2006)

Genghis said:
			
		

> I'd like to expose my child to martial arts. Obviously each child is different, but I'm looking for introductory experiences not pretty colored belts or hard nosed drill camp. Although I've taught, I thought that it might be good to have her in a small class for the experience of group practice instead of just hitting her ol' Dad.
> 
> She's interested, but questions remain: what age to start, style, and which association has a good rep for standardized dans with certification to teach kids, etc.
> 
> ...


 
Genghis, I'm guessing you mean USS*D  *Kempo 

Welcome to MartialTalk!

I don't think that you will find many organizations with dan ranks that are standardized in practice, nor will you find a broadbased "certification" to teach children, aside from something internal to the organization.

There is more to the posts about Fred Villari and the USSD then personal attacks.  The organization as a whole has suffered from bad business practices and dojos going under.  There have been a lot of people thhat have personally and financially been hurt by bad decisions, and some of that frustration has been voiced here on this forum.  There are also some really good martial artists and instructors that have emerged from the same organization.  The fact that a Kempo school is part of the USSD does not make it good or bad, it is whether the instructors are right for your situation.  

Don't sign any contract that you can't break.  Don't sign any contracts without your ways out of the contract specified in writing.  If the school presses you to pre-pay your tuition in advance, think very hard if this is a business model you would trust your daughter's training to and never pay up more than you can afford to lose if the dojo's doors close tomorrow.

Pay close attention to how *all* of the instructors interact with children.  There may be some instructors that focus more on teaching children than others....but....people have days off and take time off...at one point or another your child will be in front of every instructor at the school.  See how they react to a child and if it is age-approprate.

You state that you are looking for a small class...many kids classes at established schools are large.  It may be wise to wait untill school starts to make a final decision.  A class that may have 8 kids in it over the summer may have 30 come september, or it may grow in relationship to advertising and promotional campaigns.   Will the instructor commit in to writing that the class will have a maximum of X kids?  Alternatively, are you comfortable with the class changing?

What are you looking for when you say "simple martial arts exposure"?  Do you mean that you are not necessarily looking for a competitive MA school? Or are you looking for a school that's really more of a glorified gym class?  Or something different altogether?

Bring your ideas and concerns to each instructor that you meet, and look for their reaction.  A quality instructor should address your interests by saying *how* the school has been successful with your specified interest, ad not just nod like a bobble head doll promising the world as soon as you sign 

Good luck to you.  I hope you find a program that works well for your daughter


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## MJS (Aug 2, 2006)

Genghis said:
			
		

> I'd like to expose my child to martial arts. Obviously each child is different, but I'm looking for introductory experiences not pretty colored belts or hard nosed drill camp. Although I've taught, I thought that it might be good to have her in a small class for the experience of group practice instead of just hitting her ol' Dad.
> 
> She's interested, but questions remain: what age to start, style, and which association has a good rep for standardized dans with certification to teach kids, etc.
> 
> ...


 
First off, Welcome to Martial Talk! 

As for your questions...Carol did a great job of giving some feedback.  I'll throw in my .02 as well.  I too, am assuming that you're talking about USSD.  I began my training in the Villari system.  Despite the large amount of stories, both good and bad that you will most likely hear, I give credit where its due.  That was the school that I began my training in, and most likely, I probably would never have gotten into the arts if it wasn't for me going to that school.  I've long since left that organization, long before I started to hear about the negative things.

In any case, I think that you really need to form your own opinion of what that school is like.  How old is your daughter?  Every child is going to be different, but I feel that the child should be old enough to be able to get something out of it.  I've seen some 4 yr. olds that are more interested in running around than learning, and I've seen some that are really into it.  

I would strongly suggest checking out the school in question.  Watch a class or two, see if your daughter can take a free trial lesson.  Talk with the other parents that are there, as well as the instructor.  I would make sure to get as much info. up front, to avoid any surprises later on.

Good luck to you!  Let us know what you decide.

Mike


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## CTKempo Todd (Aug 2, 2006)

First off, 
Congratulations on taking a very active interest an active role in actually looking into schools BEFORE taking the plunge with your daughter..most people will go around the corner because its convenient for THEM. So well done..

Secondly, Carol and Mike did a great job with their statements regarding USSD and Villari's. I too ran a Villari school at one time (for 4 1/2 yrs) and spent many years in that system as a student. 


Now that I am calling the shots at my own school based on my own experiences here's what I can offer you as suggestions..Remember these are only MY opinions so based on teaching probably around 500 students..

Firstly, 
You did not mention the childs age...Traditionally most schools start kids at age 4. (Including when I was at Villaris)..I no longer do this. I begin them at age 5. This makes a HUGE difference in the intake process of a child from a teaching perspective. Also in terms of their approach..At 4 years old, it is just an activity or something to do, and in their minds they can leave at any time. I don't know what it is, but 5 years old view it a lot differently.

Second,
Most schools have kids going 2 to 3 times per week...I have the yougest age group going 1 time per week. A very LARGE portion of the 2 - 3 time per week kids will be burnt out in 6 months...
Sure everyone is on fire when they start training but this excitement subsides. And it subsides much quicker when they are going that often..
I'll grant that in the beginning, they want to be at the school more often, however by keeping the 'carrot' so to speak farther away..you flatten the excitment curve a little over time and believe me a much greater percentage of kids STAY in the school for a muhc longer period of time and have much less chance of leaving...
Besides, the kids have their WHOLE life to learn this stuff..When they get to green belt and have shown a great committment and really understand why they are practicing martial arts..then absolutely that is the time to increase the class frequency. Again my take on it..but it has worked like a charm in my school so far.

Belt Fees:
PURE profit..A way to get more money out of you..Make sure you understand up front what they are and how much at each belt rank..Most like they will increase..That way you are not blindsided.

Also agree about contracts...If they are doing a good job teaching, they should not lock you into anything.

Best of luck and hope that helped.
Todd Guay
CT Kempo and Fitness
South Meriden, CT


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## JasonASmith (Aug 2, 2006)

Genghis said:
			
		

> I'd like to expose my child to martial arts. Obviously each child is different, but I'm looking for introductory experiences not pretty colored belts or hard nosed drill camp. Although I've taught, I thought that it might be good to have her in a small class for the experience of group practice instead of just hitting her ol' Dad.
> 
> She's interested, but questions remain: what age to start, style, and which association has a good rep for standardized dans with certification to teach kids, etc.
> 
> ...


 
I am in somewhat of the same boat as you...
My son is 6, and I would like him to study with the sensei that I have chosen, however he is....tenderhearted(as my mother calls it)
He's got trouble dealing with loud noises, and he sometimes "goes to pieces" when we look at him sideways.  I am not sure how well he would do in the dojo right now...We can't seem to figure out why he is afraid of loud noises...:idunno:


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## Grenadier (Aug 2, 2006)

Genghis said:
			
		

> Although I've taught, I thought that it might be good to have her in a small class for the experience of group practice instead of just hitting her ol' Dad.


 
A good idea, indeed.  Having other kids in the class can be of a great help, especially in easing her into the training regimen.  Also, there will be the opportunity for her to find some good quality friends over there.  




> She's interested, but questions remain: what age to start, style, and which association has a good rep for standardized dans with certification to teach kids, etc.




I'm going to have to stick with my chief instructor's advice, and say that 5 years old is the minimum, although those who are almost 5 years old and are mature for their ages (both physically and mentally) can be allotted an exception.  




> Also know the market talks, and bad organizations have a way of falling apart after a few years.


 
Quite true, although that's a discussion best suited for another thread. 

As for styles of martial arts, there are so many out there, that it's really more of a matter of finding good instructors, than it is finding an ideal style.  I would simply say, to go check out a good number of the local schools, and let your own eyes be the judge.  You seem to have considerable experience in the martial arts, and know what to look for, when it comes to good fundamentals, good attitude, etc.


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## Genghis (Aug 3, 2006)

I'd like to thank y'all for the useful advice & comments. My instructing days were with highly motivated and (mostly) young & tough military folks -- so I'm concerned about both the socialization aspect of training for my daughter and the appropriateness of my worn teaching techniques. 


Carol, your points were spot on with my inclinations, thank you. Todd, thanks for the inside view on USSD (sorry for my typo on the brand). My girl is 4. I absolutely don't want to overload her (or us). I know years aren't as critical as individual maturity, but ... they only develop just so fast, regardless of overzealous parents. 


I think I'll try the free private lesson and reassess afterwards. 2 per week sounded like a lot to me too, especially for a 4 year old. Understand rank boosts moneymaking, and I also get teaching is a business, but we all know that not too many owners or instructors are getting rich teaching karate. I don't want to buy into a cult either ...


Really appreciate the contract comments; wasn't an issue in my youth as a student or when I was teaching at the AF Academy. I may just print this whole thread and carry it to my daughter's private lesson and ask the instructor to address the key points. I am favorably inclined toward the USSD instructor I met. But I refuse to run my girl into the ground ... too many flowers yet for her to smell.


Appreciate your time and welcome further thoughts. I am especially impressed that senior instructors on this Discussion Forum took the time help my wife & I think this through -- very positive use of the web for my family, and hopefully useful to others in similar straights. 


Best regards, Genghis


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## texasbmas (Aug 8, 2006)

you know what i find really funny is everyone under the sun comes on here to talk crap on ussd ,instructors ,former students, but i never see anyone from ussd talking crap on other styles and instructors . kinda funny i think these other instructors have way to much time on there hands to devote so much time into ussd bashing.


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## Kreth (Aug 8, 2006)

texasbmas said:
			
		

> you know what i find really funny is everyone under the sun comes on here to talk crap on ussd ,instructors ,former students, but i never see anyone from ussd talking crap on other styles and instructors . kinda funny i think these other instructors have way to much time on there hands to devote so much time into ussd bashing.


What exactly does this have to do with the topic? Not everyone shares your opinion of USSD, and you can't hijack every thread that mentions them, favorably or otherwise. I have no dog in this fight, either, before you think to play that card.


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## still learning (Aug 8, 2006)

Hello, Judo is the very best for children.  They will learn how to fall and roll. Plus Judo is the known as the " Gentle ART!  ...Please check it out...Aloha


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## w.kaer (Aug 9, 2006)

If I may, I am going to steer the conversation a bit (but only a bit).  When would you say a child is ready to start MA classes?


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## Jonathan Randall (Aug 9, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, Judo is the very best for children. They will learn how to fall and roll. Plus Judo is the known as the " Gentle ART! ...Please check it out...Aloha


 
Agreed - it's one of the best. My parents started me in Judo when I was five and many years later, when I was hit by a car in a shopping center parking lot, the falling skills saved me from serious injury.

TKD can also be very good - I saw some children really gain a lot of self-confidence, posture and confidence as a result of a couple of years under Mr. Pierce (TKD instructor, then from Sacramento, CA).


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## stone_dragone (Aug 12, 2006)

Grappling arts (judo) are better suited for children than striking arts (karate), IMO.  Punching and kicking are un-natural for children, but rolling on the floor comes much easier.  

Also, once they get a basis in falling and rolling, then if they choose to study a striking art, they will already have a strong combative start.

My .02


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## whitetiger2001 (Aug 28, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Genghis, I'm guessing you mean USS*D *Kempo
> 
> Welcome to MartialTalk!
> 
> ...


 
   It's difficult to find a school that is right on just a couple of visits.  But once you have a school in mind, watch a couple of classes of the right age group, watch how the instructors interact with the students.  Do the kids  enjoy the classes?  This is important.  Talk with the other parents, talk with the instructors and feel free to ask  whatever questions you want.  If the instructor is evasive or discourages parents from watching the class, this should be a red flag.  Is the school clean? I'm going trough the same thing with my sion now.  I trained in the Villaris system and became an instrucotr but I don't have one near me now so I have to find another a school for him.   
   Good luck in your search


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## kingkong89 (Aug 31, 2006)

:ultracool hello 

i nderstand about your worry of age, if it helps, my instructor had a class designed for young kids about 4-8 that taught kids simple self defense such as blocks and to run from strangers, and a little on how to respond to a stranger.hth


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## shinbushi (Aug 31, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, Judo is the very best for children.  They will learn how to fall and roll. Plus Judo is the known as the " Gentle ART!  ...Please check it out...Aloha


I want to second that.  It creates a great base as well to build a good martial artist on.  They also can use the pins and that to defeat a bully without getting expelled (US problem).


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## ArmorOfGod (Aug 31, 2006)

While you are at it, I recommend you read this thread:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37742

I think that four is far too young to start anyone in martial arts.  Many people here will disagree with me, but if you start her at four, do you think she will really be still in it when she is 6 or 7?  I can defenitely say she will not.

Still, that is just one man's opinion.

Go check that thread out for other opinions on that topic.

AoG


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## jks9199 (Aug 31, 2006)

ArmorOfGod said:
			
		

> While you are at it, I recommend you read this thread:
> 
> http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37742
> 
> ...


I don't.  The earliest I'll take a student is around 7.  And I prefer closer to 10.  And I reserve the right to tell someone "come back when you're older/more mature (be they youth or adult!)."  I find that the youngest kids often just don't the attention span for an hour long class that's heavy on repitition.  Then, when they get bored, they become a distraction to everyone else.


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## RichK (Sep 1, 2006)

Genghis, where in VA are you located? At 4 flip a coin, some will say yes some will say no. 12 years ago when my son was 3 I started teaching him a little Kenpo, at 4 I had him interview at a place that taught Aikido but to no one under 6. They took him in on a trial basis and he went beyond that and when he turned 5 he kept up with adults during a celebration day. No, not competing with the adults but willing enough to do what the adults were doing and doing it while other children much older were bowing out. You can not just guage age but also the maturity level. I have had mid-teens that I have made sit out as they were lazy or goofing off and not paying attention. Yes the age thing is always up in the air depending on the style and the teaching level. Would you want a joint manipulation done on any child 12 and under (here comes the arrows)? At 5 my son was throwing me and some other adults, but I am not going to throw a major move on a child at that age. Aikido is in there as a younger style as they teach rolling, flipping and evasive manuevers from attackers. Wow, this became lengthier than I wanted but it is just my thoughts coming out.


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