# What would you buy?



## dosk3n (May 27, 2010)

I have some money and as a man I like to spend it on cool things 

Now I am trying to decide on buying either butterfly knives or a wooden dummy.

Thing is Im not even on to the 3rd form never mind dummy of knives form.

But I would still like one of these as I can still use them for training for example knfives for gaining punching power and dummy for practicing drills. Not to mention both would look cool.

What would you get and why?


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## matsu (May 27, 2010)

for me it would be the dummy any hour of the day!
even if you dont know the dummy form, it is at very least a training partner for you adjust your stance shapes etc with when you are alone.
it will also build your strength and power in your arms.
 its a great way to drill, but not at the expense of a real person to punch lol
matsu


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## Domino (May 27, 2010)

Yep, I agree with you both, a Mook Jong for practicing and toughening arms up 
Oh and a pole for strengthening arms.


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## yak sao (May 27, 2010)

Dummy, hands down


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## zepedawingchun (May 27, 2010)

The dummy is the most important tool in the Wing Chun system.  You can use makeshift things to represent the butterfly swords or a long pole, but a dummy is the most important apparatus in Wing Chun .  Especially if you don't have a partner to train with on a regular basis.  From simple drills, perfecting proper position of punches, strikes, parries, footwork, structure, to the form itself, a dummy *is* the most useful tool in Wing Chun.  You can learn the system without it, but if you ever have one, you'll wonder how you ever managed to learn Wing Chun without it.


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## mook jong man (May 27, 2010)

Get the dummy mate , you will probably get bored with the knives after a while.
But the dummy is so versatile that you will always be coming up with new and creative ways to train on it.


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## Poor Uke (May 27, 2010)

dummy dummy


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## geezer (May 27, 2010)

dosk3n said:


> I have some money and as a man I like to spend it on cool things
> 
> Now I am trying to decide on buying either butterfly knives or a wooden dummy.
> 
> ...



Sure, the dummy is more useful, but other things need to be factored in such as your living situation. Do you have a place for your dummy? Are you settled, or do you move around a lot?

I got my dummy from Koo Sang when I was a graduate student renting a room. I barely had room for my bed, a desk and the dummy. Having this strange object practically hanging over my bed was a bit tough to explain to girls I dated. Probably gave me a bit of an odd reputation! As the years passed, I had to drag it around with me and often had to store it outside... which was not  at all good for the wood. After I got married, one time my wife used the arms to back up some projects she was drilling holes in and bored into the arms themselves. During the years I had to stop training, she also tried to put it out for the Good-Will truck to carry off. And finally, the custom fitted leg got lost in another move. Alas!

Still, the story has a happy ending. Now that I've been back to training for a few years, I located another leg (from the guy who sold me the original) that's a perfect fit. I refinished the weathered teak, and built a new stand on my back porch. Yes it's outside, but under a roof and I keep it well covered when not _in use_... which is now most of the time. It's addictive, you know. On the other hand my kung-fu brothers keep ribbing me, asking if my wife would please set it out on the curb again, and give them a call. Not bloody likely!

So my advice is, get a good dummy if you can. And, especially if you are a knife collector, get a nicely crafted set of Bart Cham Dao too. And if you do, be sure and _find our what kind your system_ uses first. In my lineage we prefer them short, narrow, pointed, and light. Others may prefer the larger, fat-ended choppers more typically associated with Hung Gar. Even though you might not use them for years, it's good to get the right knives for your style. Good luck.


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## yak sao (May 27, 2010)

Also if you are married, hide the number to Goodwill....just in case.


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## dosk3n (May 28, 2010)

I live in a flat with a balcony. Its not very big really the wall is about the same size as the frame that the dummy will be on and this is where I plan to put it. Ive checked and I think this would be about the minimum space needed to practice the dummy form once I got to it so I think this would be fine.

Our school has a carpenter who creates dummys if we need and can personalise them. I am going to meet up with him and discuss a way of making the dummy easily removable from the wall incase I need space. Obviously the supports would still be attached to the wall but if we can fid a way to make the trunk easily removable this would suite my circumstances better.


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## zepedawingchun (May 28, 2010)

dosk3n said:


> I live in a flat with a balcony. Its not very big really the wall is about the same size as the frame that the dummy will be on and this is where I plan to put it. Ive checked and I think this would be about the minimum space needed to practice the dummy form once I got to it so I think this would be fine.
> 
> Our school has a carpenter who creates dummys if we need and can personalise them. I am going to meet up with him and discuss a way of making the dummy easily removable from the wall incase I need space. Obviously the supports would still be attached to the wall but if we can fid a way to make the trunk easily removable this would suite my circumstances better.


 
If space is an issue with a dummy (or lack of it), make the dummy into a free standing dummy.

http://www.woodendummy.net/

The Great Lion Company has been making free standing dummies for several years.  The owner (Sihing) Clarke Thorton makes the legs where they are adjustable for height.  And since the dummies are free standing (with rollers), you can easily move them around the room to get them out of the way or store them out of sight in a closet.  Great idea.


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## qwksilver61 (Jun 27, 2010)

Geezer that's hilarious! hey it's a great tool wish I had one,wives are something aren't they,mine is always trying to get rid of my "things" I take up 2% of the house...well, she has the rest..you feel me? (ha,ha,ha!)


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## caesjong (Feb 28, 2011)

Checkout My Jong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df8JvDG2Ods


Its posted on CL Philly.

Thanks


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## zepedawingchun (Feb 28, 2011)

caesjong said:


> Checkout My Jong
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df8JvDG2Ods
> 
> ...


 
Really nice looking jong.  I can see a lot of work went into the building and setup.  But, is there a reason you mounted it with such short retaining slats, not very wide.  Most mook yan jong's are mounted or held up by slats (wooden rails which run through the sides of the dummy to hold it up) that are appr. 5 feet long.  And they are mounted pretty solidly to a frame or wall.  The reason they are that long is so there is some flex (spring) in the jong, which responds much like a person does when you engage them.  You don't want the jong to be too solid or immovable, but also you don't want it to move around easily when you touch it.  Thus, the spring or flex which gives you some resistance.


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## caesjong (Mar 1, 2011)

Thanks for the reply.  This took me about 125 plus hours to build.  You can spend days on just sanding and finishing.  Also red oak is not easy to work with (cut plane chisel drill sand).  This stand was just a variation of the standard.  Traditional stands take up alot of room of which I don't have.  I built another jong out of solid ash which is mounted on my squat rack.    I'm in the process of making another jong out of black walnut  (JKD style).  This will also have a differnet mounting system.   Suprisingly this stand has plenty of flex.  Not from the slats but from the frame and base.  Also, I design my jongs not to have to much play in the arms (less or equal 1/4 inch). Some jongs I've played  (buick yip highend marble and other chinese imports) tend to have too much play for my taste.


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## geezer (Mar 1, 2011)

caesjong said:


> Also, I design my jongs not to have to much play in the arms (less or equal 1/4 inch). Some jongs I've played (buick yip highend marble and other chinese imports) tend to have too much play for my taste.


 
My dummy... an old Koo Sang teakwood model... has quite a bit if play in the arms. One thing I've considered is putting a piece of thin rubber, something like a short sleave cut from a piece of bicycle inner-tube aound the tenon (the square part of the arm that inserts into the socket). This would slightly reduce the play and perhaps reduce the noise which annoys my wife and my neighbors. Anybody try this?


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 1, 2011)

caesjong said:


> . . . .Suprisingly this stand has plenty of flex. Not from the slats but from the frame and base. . . . . .


 
Watching the video, I saw the frame moving.  That is why I made the comment about flex (spring).  I wouldn't call what it was doing flexing.  You need the dummy to spring, as you apply energy, it returns the energy you give it.  It must flex or spring with you, not just move.


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## wtxs (Mar 1, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> Watching the video, I saw the frame moving.  That is why I made the comment about flex (spring).  I wouldn't call what it was doing flexing.  You need the dummy to spring, as you apply energy, it returns the energy you give it.  It must flex or spring with you, not just move.



I'm assuming what you are referring to the forward and backward spring/bouncing motions of the jong .. yes?


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 1, 2011)

wtxs said:


> I'm assuming what you are referring to the forward and backward spring/bouncing motions of the jong .. yes?


 
Yes, the forward and backward moving and shaking and bouncing. . . . . there is no springing.


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## wtxs (Mar 1, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> Yes, the forward and backward moving and shaking and bouncing. . . . . there is no springing.



I "spar with you" :boxing: cause there IS spring action going on there.  When you hit/punch/palm the jong in an straight line, the impact cause it to move backward (displacement), ... and does it not SPRRRING back to its original position when the force had dissipated ... visualize releasing an compressed SPRING.


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 2, 2011)

wtxs said:


> I "spar with you" :boxing: cause there IS spring action going on there. When you hit/punch/palm the jong in an straight line, the impact cause it to move backward (displacement), ... and does it not SPRRRING back to its original position when the force had dissipated ... visualize releasing an compressed SPRING.


 
I can, I do, and I have visualized and I'm sorry wtxs, what that dummy is doing is not springing, but shaking or swinging. I've played with enough solidly mounted and free standing jongs (almost 30 years) to know the difference just by looking at it's movement. It does not spring back. Yes it returns, most likely because it has no where else to go. And it is free standing, so the base is probably lifting in the front (look at it, not big enough for the person to stand on it when practicing) a 1/4 of an inch off the soft ground (look at the surroundings) and then returns quickly. But what it is doing is not springing back. When a jong springs back. it should practically stick to you. This jong returns about quarter of a tick (1/8 - 1/4 second) back to it's original position, which is upright.

Look at the rails that hold the jong and where they are mounted to the frame. There is no flex (which causes the springing action I'm talking about) because where they are mounted is too close to the jong. From the dummy to the frame the rail is too short. So the only other place the jong has to flex is the frame. Now look really good at how sturdy the frame is. There is no way you of I could get the frame to flex or spring considering how sturdy it is by just striking the jong. But the base will move and shake because it is not solidly mounted. The dummy and frame are not heavy enough to prevent the metal(?) base from lifting and swaying when contacted with a decent amount of force. The movement you see is because the frame is mounted in one location on each side of the base which allows the frame and base to lift or swing when force is applied. Remember the old toy saying, 'Weebles wobble but they don't fall down!'. He just has a big weeble.


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## wtxs (Mar 2, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> This jong returns about quarter of a tick (1/8 - 1/4 second) back to it's original position, which is upright.



However minute, it spring sprang sprung back to its original position ... Just playing with you man ...


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 3, 2011)

wtxs said:


> However minute, it spring sprang sprung back to its original position ... Just playing with you man ...


 
I would call it a wobble (back at you).


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