# OC Spray



## MJS (Jan 14, 2007)

In some other threads, there was mention of OC spray, its use, effectiveness, etc.  I thought I'd start a thread here for discussion, as the other thread is talking about Tasers, not OC.  What are your thoughts on it?  Is it worth carrying?  Is it effective?

Mike


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## Cruentus (Jan 14, 2007)

As I mentioned before, OC is not a magic solution, but it does have its place. It does tend to reduce the breathing and vision capacity of the assailent. With proper tactics, this could aid in an arrest or an escape for a civie. 

The mistake, however, would be to think that OC would take out the "fight" of the attacker. In fact, the opposite could be true, and the attacker could want to fight "more" after being sprayed. 

OC reduces ability and possibly opportunity if one can get to a safe distance; but it does nothing in regards to intent.


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## tellner (Jan 14, 2007)

I've just posted a rant in this thread. It is reproduced here for your edification 



			
				tellner said:
			
		

> Wow. Another chance for the fifty cent version of my OC rant...
> 
> I suppose OC is better than nothing. It beats screaming for help, but let's take a good hard look at it.
> 
> ...


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## CuongNhuka (Jan 14, 2007)

If your going to carry a weapon, you might as well wear a bullet proof vest and carry a sawed shot gun.


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## Cruentus (Jan 14, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> If your going to carry a weapon, you might as well wear a bullet proof vest and carry a sawed shot gun.


 
Yes. You are correct. There is no happy medium between completely unarmed and body armor with a "sawed shot gun." None at all...


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## tellner (Jan 14, 2007)

Deadly force is deadly force. Less than deadly force is less than deadly force. A shotgun is deadly force. If you don't have the correct tax stamp a sawed off shotgun is deadly force in the commission of a felony (violation of the National Firearms Act of 1934 in the US). Not good. Very bad.

When a gun is appropriate nothing else will do. Fortunately, there are very few circumstances where a gun is appropriate.

OC has its place, but that place is a lot smaller than the more hopeful would like it to be.


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## pankration (Jan 14, 2007)

We've had several high profile cases here where police used pepperspray and tasers. Guess what? On pumped up, violent criminals on drugs it barely slowed them down. The only people it has been really effective on is protesters, most of whom were students, mothers and ex-hippies hardly the type of person you would need to worry about. I carry the stuff when I hike up in the mountains for bears and I'm beginning to worry it won't stop them either!


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## Cruentus (Jan 14, 2007)

I think that we need to use a little bit of logic here rather then being on different sides of an extreme.

Not every person that would commit an assault or violent crime is the infamous "pumped up violent criminal on drugs" of which tazers and OC would have no effect. These people do exist, but make up a small percentage of attackers. 

For most attackers, less-lethal force tools will hinder their ability to do harm. But of course, none of these are the catch all. One has to expect that once the fight breaks off, that one has a fight on his/her hands, regardless of what tool is used in assistance.


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## Carol (Jan 15, 2007)

But the thread doesn't just say that OC spray is ineffective on pumped-up violent attackers.  Something IMO that is more common is what Tellner pointed out - OC spray can have a paradoxical reaction.

OC spray definitely has its benefits.   The sprays that are infused with dye can help identify a perpetrator.  It is often effective defense against attacks by dogs and other common animals.  It is lightweight and easy to carry.  Many LEO's advise CCW holders to carry pepper spray along with their firearm in order to have a less-lethal defense option.

On the other hand, OC spray is a one-shot deal...literally.  IIRC, the manufacturer recommendation for the keychain sized canisters is that the contents are enough for one attack by one attacker. 

As martial artists, we generally understand that a weapon is something requires training, a bit of common sense,  and an understanding of how it is regulated under the law.   Not everyone gets that, unfortunately.


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## Cruentus (Jan 15, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> As martial artists, we generally understand that a weapon is something requires training, a bit of common sense, and an understanding of how it is regulated under the law. Not everyone gets that, unfortunately.


 
Very true.

Worth noting, we recommend that one carries at least a 2oz. container rather then the key chain, and other smaller versions. You can get multiple shots with 2oz. or more.

Also worth noting, proper tactics reduce the liklehood of OC working against it's user. Particularly, I think they are better for one who would be trying to make an escape, vs. one trying to make an arrest. When making an arrest, one sprays, then has to go into the area and to the person that was sprayed to make an arrest. This is why officers unavoidably almost always recieve some of the effects themselves, albeit that they usually are much less then those receiving a more direct shot.

Conversly, say a woman who would try to make an escape can send a cloud of mist towards the attacker, to run in the opposite direction. She can leave multiple mist clouds behind her and towards the attacker with the proper sized canister, and make an escape with much less of a chance of receiving effects from the OC that would hinder that ability to escape or fight if escape failed.

This also brings up the point of who should carry what in terms of mist, spray, or foam. I wouldn't recommend that LE use mist, for example, because they have to go into the area that they just misted to make an arrest.

So, these items do have their place, and can be used well with proper tactics. Unfortunatily, as you said, many won't seek the proper training to learn how to employ these tactics properly.


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## Grenadier (Jan 16, 2007)

OC spray can be a useful tool, but as the others have stated, should never be thought of as the ultimate end.  

Different folks will react differently to irritant sprays.  Some who are rather sensitive may very well be unable to continue attacking / pursuing, but rest assured, there are some folks in this world who are going to have but slight, if any, reaction to the irritant spray.  

Individuals who are intoxicated, or under the influence of certain drugs, might not even feel it.  

Does this mean I disapprove of its use?  No.  If it works, then as Carol mentioned, it has its benefits.  However, it's always good to have alternate methods that can tear through defenses (decent lockback knives, etc).


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## Drac (Jan 16, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> But the thread doesn't just say that OC spray is ineffective on pumped-up violent attackers. Something IMO that is more common is what Tellner pointed out - OC spray can have a paradoxical reaction.


 
Its a crap shoot at best..I've seen drunks go down in a storm of sneezing, coughing and cursing..I've seen those "hopped" up on something illegal laugh and keep coming..



			
				Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> The sprays that are infused with dye can help identify a perpetrator. It is often effective defense against attacks by dogs and other common animals. It is lightweight and easy to carry.


 
Just avoid the "foam" stuff..They tried to rob a bus driver by dosing her withe the foam, she managed to scoop it up in her hand and throe it at her attacker who fled



			
				Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> On the other hand, OC spray is a one-shot deal...literally. IIRC, the manufacturer recommendation for the keychain sized canisters is that the contents are enough for one attack by one attacker.


 
The keychain canisters are a JOKE..Too many people put it on their keyring that holds their car keys..If they need it its in the door of the vehicle they are attempting to open..If you're gonna carry OC spray carry it in your non gun side pocket or your hand so its ALWAYS at the ready..



			
				Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Many LEO's advise CCW holders to carry pepper spray along with their firearm in order to have a less-lethal defense option


 
Makes sense to me


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## KenpoTex (Jan 16, 2007)

My $0.02 regarding OC...

I think that intermediate/less-lethal tools like OC, Tasers, etc. have a place in LE and security, however, for the private citizen engaged in self-defense, I don't feel that they have much value.

Why? First of all, they are control devices, not weapons. When they are properly employed by LE and security, their role is either to cause a resisting (but not necessarily threatening) individual to comply with the demands/instructions of the officer or to aid the officer(s) in their attempts to subdue the individual. They are not for dealing with a situation where the threat of serious physical harm or death existst. I know we've probably all seen videos of officers tasering or spraying someone who had a knife or whatever. However, in most situations of this nature, I feel that it is a mistake on the part of the officers to use an intermediate/less-lethal device to deal with a deadly threat. 

In the context of self-defense, the same principle applies. If I am being faced with the threat of death or serious injury (which we have to assume is the case if we've been targeted as a victim), I'm not going to waste my time by employing a method that very possibly may not work. I have a hard time envisioning a real self-defense scenario where you would be justified in using an intermediate device but not justified in using another, more effective method.

As far as the effectiveness...For my current job, I had to go through an OC certification which included taking a 3-second burst directly to the face from about 8 feet. Yeah, after 30 seconds or so it started to suck really bad (really bad!). However, in the initial period of time after being sprayed, I would have had no problem continuing a fight since I could still see and breath well enough to function. As I said, it gets to you, but you don't have to be "hopped up" on some sort of controlled-substance to fight through it. After my experience with OC, and hearing numerous stories about people fighting through it, I just don't trust it.

I personally don't carry it for two reasons. One is that if someone has threatened me to the point where I have to draw something, I'm going to go with my pistol or a knife. Two is that in the aftermath of a deadly-force threat, I wouldn't want to have do deal with the question: "why did you shoot him/stab him/bounce his head off the pavement when you could have just sprayed him?" (gotta love prosecutors who don't have a clue... )

I'm not saying not to carry it. However, if you do, I would advise that you think of it as a distractionary device to facilitate striking or accessing a more effective weapon.  Don't count on it as a method that's going to end the confrontation.


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## bigkicks (Jan 16, 2007)

Every weapon has its time in place in battle, OC is no different. If you looking for a non-lethal approch to a confrentation.

Physiological effects would include:

Respiratory: Bunring of throat, SOB, sweeling or inflammation on bronchi tubes.
Nasal inhaulation: burning, swelling, and sneezing
Occular: Burning, redness, stinging pain, and will causes reflexing shutting of eyelids.

All sounds good so far, right?? Well i have used this OC as a bouncer and it doesn't do ***** for people that have been amped up on meth or coke. Or for that matter a adrenelin surged person comming after you. If used incorrectly, ( not enough distatnce between you and an attacker) or used in a confined space, it will effect you and everyone in that confined space. 

The other problem that i have is that everyone and their grandmother have them but, how many people do you see walking to their cars at night with them off safty and finger on the button. I haven't seen one. even if they were to have OC's armed like that if the person is not consistanly walking around in what the gun community calls conidition yellow and is aware of their surroundings an attacker can easily get the advantage.

In short, my wife carries glock and when that isn't an option she carries a knife and is trainned how to use them both. Leave the non-lethal crap to cops, and if your going to arm yourself do it with something that you are comfortable with and have had training on.

" better to judged by twelve, than carried by six"!!


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## Cruentus (Jan 16, 2007)

Interesting... one post and already a suspension? :uhoh: 

Anyway...

I think that tazers are invaluable to LE, but not very useful to the private citizen (minus security officers); however, I don't believe that the citizen should be prohibited from owning/carrying one (see tazer thread on this).

OC does not seem as useful to LE now that tazers are widely used. I would think that OC would be good for the private citizen in aiding an escape. Logic dictates that although people can fight through OC, it may be harder to actually chase and catch someone with OC affecting the eyes and breathing.

I know anecdotally, it has aided in escape for citizens before.

What I would like to see is some hard data or clinical trials regarding private citizens; mainly, are citizens better able to escape a threat when deploying OC. We don't have anything like that to date that I know of.


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## still learning (Jan 16, 2007)

Hello, My friend has the bear can ones....and it works on bears charging at you!  ......Aloha

You don't have to outrun the bear....just the other guys.......Aloha


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## Carol (Jan 16, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> Interesting... one post and already a suspension? :uhoh:


 
An account can be suspended for a reason other than the content of a post.


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## Carol (Jan 16, 2007)

still learning said:


> You don't have to outrun the bear....just the other guys.......Aloha


 
:roflmao:


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## Infinite (Jan 16, 2007)

What of the psycological effect? Do you think everyone you come up against has been sprayed and will want to be sprayed?

Anyone with any security trianing knows one axiom: IF the person wants the person WILL find a way to take it.

So saying the OC won't stop a determined detacker is a rather missleading statement.

If YOU are the goal that is correct (murder / Rape / Kidnapping) however what about theft? Burglery?

In those cases the criminal has to decided if the confrontation is worth it and OC may make him decide to find someone else.

LEO's always tell me, 'Look like a victim be a victim'. You know walk alert make sure you know whats going on.

I think if you had OC and it was clear you had OC you may deter a whole series of crimes they may have just been targgeted for.


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## Drac (Jan 17, 2007)

Infinite said:


> LEO's always tell me, 'Look like a victim be a victim'. You know walk alert make sure you know whats going on.


 
Yep..100% True..


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## Cruentus (Jan 17, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> An account can be suspended for a reason other than the content of a post.


 
I know...it's just sort of funny when that happens. It always makes you wonder! 



> If YOU are the goal that is correct (murder / Rape / Kidnapping) however what about theft? Burglery?


 
Exactly. Like I had said before, not every attacker is so determined or "amped up" that they are going to want to deal with OC, or chasing someone down after being sprayed. 

Most criminals are very lazy and want easy prey.


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## Infinite (Jan 17, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> Exactly. Like I had said before, not every attacker is so determined or "amped up" that they are going to want to deal with OC, or chasing someone down after being sprayed.
> 
> Most criminals are very lazy and want easy prey.



True enough it might not have been missleading I just might have been leading it somewhere it wasn't intended to go 

*** U Me and all that.


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## shesulsa (Jan 17, 2007)

All good points on OC.

I think the best citizen self-defense application of OC spray would be against the "friendly" criminal.  You know the one ... s/he approaches and tries to goad you into going somewhere or giving them something, or perhaps it's a recent ex-significant other harrassing you.  If someone will not let you pass, that is kidnapping.  Good against a talker, I think.

I'd also agree that if you're in some sort of swift ambulatory motion (like you can predict when this will happen, but okay, and true enough) the misters would do well.  I'd rather the stream with dye as well, and more than 1 oz.

But there are many people for whom OC spray would only open up the sinuses and bronchii and serve to piss off the recipient.  Adrenaline dump is not what you want to give them, especially within arm's reach.


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## Drac (Jan 17, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> Adrenaline dump is not what you want to give them, especially within arm's reach.


 
Great point to remember....


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## Infinite (Jan 17, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> AIf someone will not let you pass, that is kidnapping.  Good against a talker, I think.



Sorry just a side note not allowing someone to leave a place where they have willingly gone is not kidnapping. Of course now that I write this I can't recall what the legal term is for this...

I want to say its wrongful improsnment but that may not fit the bill. Any LEO's want to remind me what that is called?


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## tellner (Jan 17, 2007)

You don't have to be on drugs or in the throes of _berserkergang_ to push through the effects of OC. Just "motivated and goal-oriented' is enough as the thousands of individual experiments have shown. Another thing to consider is that violent criminals are more likely than you and I to have been hosed down by arresting officers or corrections officers. They know what to expect. They are at least a little used to it. That gives them an advantage dealing with the effects.


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## shesulsa (Jan 17, 2007)

Infinite said:


> Sorry just a side note not allowing someone to leave a place where they have willingly gone is not kidnapping. Of course now that I write this I can't recall what the legal term is for this...
> 
> I want to say its wrongful improsnment but that may not fit the bill. Any LEO's want to remind me what that is called?


Unlawful detainment?


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## Infinite (Jan 17, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> Unlawful detainment?



False imprisonment or forced captivity in california.


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## shesulsa (Jan 17, 2007)

Infinite said:


> False imprisonment or forced captivity in california.


That's it.  Couldn't pull it out, so I joked. Thanks!


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## Cruentus (Jan 17, 2007)

All good points to think about.

I think that they key worth repeating is, as was mentioned by Tellner, myself, and others earlier, is that there is no magic totem to get you out of a "fight" once you are in one. OC may assist you, but if you can't readily escape, you will still have a "fight" on your hands. You aren't going to spray someone, and they are going to yell "Owee!" and cover their face, and the fight will be over.

Statistically, data shows that OC has been proven as a whole to be _helpful_ to officers and people trying to handle a violent situation. Anecdotally, there are enough cases of OC failing to work to warrent concern for those who carry it.

Yes, it may be true that anecdotally, OC may cause someone to increase the level of violence (through adrenaline, or anger, etc.). I don't buy the argument proposed by some that one shouldn't carry OC due to this possibility. That is akin to saying "Don't fight back your rapist because he could get angry and assault you more or in a worse way." This is a victims mentality that is insufficient and inherently flawed.

So, I think the main thing to remember is that if one carries OC, then it needs to be used IN CONJUNCTION with another tactic (escape, fighting, etc.). OC is something that will assist you in achieving your goal, but it is not the means that will allow you to reach that goal. Too often people think of OC in one irrational extreme or another; either believing that a .5 Oz. pocket keychain is going to make the attacker drop to his knees in a choking fit, or believing because anecdotally it didn't work in a few cases (15% according to stats) and because there was still some struggle when it did, that the tool is completely useless. Neither extreme is reasonable or true.

Reasonably, one has to realize that once one is "in" a fight, one "has" to fight; and no tool, OC or otherwise, will change that. This is why we need training, and mainly the tools to stay out of the "fight" in the first place.

What I would still like to see (as I'll mention again) is how the use of OC (with proper tactics) fairs for the person trying to escape an attack. There is anecdotal evidence of OC being very helpful for one trying to escape, but I would like to see some clinical trials. To date, we don't have data that I know of regarding this...


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## pankration (Jan 17, 2007)

I don't know if there are any other people reading this thread from Canada but quite frankly I'm a little dismayed by the posts advocating carrying a gun or knife for self-defense. I know that the US has a reputation for violence but as a frequent visitor to the states (I also attended university there) I have not seen or experienced this supposed lawlessness. Crime is everywhere but it is not as prevalent as people make it out to be particularly in the US. Are some of the writers here living in especially dangerous cities? Is carrying a handgun for a law-abiding citizen the norm? I'm not comfortable with an armed citizenry, even mace is probably not needed; at least that's my perception. I might be naive, stupid or getting old but it seems to me that a decent level of fitness, some truly applicable martial arts moves and a positive, confident self-image should keep most people from being preyed on. Your thoughts? Remember this is a martial arts site, not a branch club of the NRA.

And finally, I'm still not 100% sure the bear spray will work on a bear. I hope I never have to prove it one way or another.


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## tellner (Jan 17, 2007)

Not many people carry a knife or gun for self defense. And most of the ones who do just wind up lugging it around for their whole lives without ever using it. Even the majority of police officers never fire a shot except on the range. But there are bad people out there. And there are dangerous situations. A knife or gun is only useful in a very few circumstances. When it is, nothing else will do. And the smaller, weaker or less physically fit you are the worse it is. Something which might not be a deadly force situation for you or me is for a 50 kilo woman. 

Think of one of these tools as a fire extinguisher or smoke alarm. It's a highly specialized piece of safety equipment useful for only one or two things. You will probably never need one. It sits there and takes up space. It needs maintenance. But that one time makes it all worthwhile. Through combinations of bad luck and poor planning I've had that "one time" more than once. So I carry a pistol from time to time. And I've grown so used to having a knife around since I was thirteen or fourteen that I feel undressed without one.


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## Drac (Jan 18, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> Unlawful detainment?


 
Ya beat me to it...That's it..


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## MJS (Jan 18, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> I think that we need to use a little bit of logic here rather then being on different sides of an extreme.
> 
> Not every person that would commit an assault or violent crime is the infamous "pumped up violent criminal on drugs" of which tazers and OC would have no effect. These people do exist, but make up a small percentage of attackers.
> 
> For most attackers, less-lethal force tools will hinder their ability to do harm. But of course, none of these are the catch all. One has to expect that once the fight breaks off, that one has a fight on his/her hands, regardless of what tool is used in assistance.


 
My appologies for neglecting this thread.  I started it, so I should be contributing as well. 

Anyway...I agree with the above comments.  On the flip side, we hear the same thing about empty hand training. Comments such as, "Well, if it doesn't work in the ring, it aint gonna work on the street."  Sorry, but just like every bad guy isn't going to be a MMA champ, every bad guy isn't going to be 'on something.'  Not saying it isn't possible, but we need to be a bit realistic.

Mike


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## MJS (Jan 18, 2007)

Perhaps something else that can be discussed is, how easily accessable is the OC going to be?  A LEO carries this on their belt, so its pretty much within arms reach.  Unless its carried on a keychain, is someone going to have time to dig thru their pockets, purse, etc.?  

Mike


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## Drac (Jan 18, 2007)

MJS said:


> Unless its carried on a keychain, is someone going to have time to dig thru their pockets, purse, etc.?
> 
> Mike


 
The problem with keychain canisters Mike is they always put it on the ring with their car keys and IF they should need it the key is in the door OR it's facing downward so they have to fumble with the keyring to use it..Not good..


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## MJS (Jan 18, 2007)

Drac said:


> The problem with keychain canisters Mike is they always put it on the ring with their car keys and IF they should need it the key is in the door OR it's facing downward so they have to fumble with the keyring to use it..Not good..


 

Ahh..I didn't think about that.  Good points!

Mike


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## Drac (Jan 18, 2007)

MJS said:


> Ahh..I didn't think about that. Good points!
> 
> Mike


 
No bigger..It's us to us (instructors) to re-educate people how to modify daily routines to make them safer..Such is the condidtion of the world we live in...


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## Cruentus (Jan 19, 2007)

pankration said:


> I don't know if there are any other people reading this thread from Canada but quite frankly I'm a little dismayed by the posts advocating carrying a gun or knife for self-defense. I know that the US has a reputation for violence but as a frequent visitor to the states (I also attended university there) I have not seen or experienced this supposed lawlessness. Crime is everywhere but it is not as prevalent as people make it out to be particularly in the US. Are some of the writers here living in especially dangerous cities? Is carrying a handgun for a law-abiding citizen the norm? I'm not comfortable with an armed citizenry, even mace is probably not needed; at least that's my perception. I might be naive, stupid or getting old but it seems to me that a decent level of fitness, some truly applicable martial arts moves and a positive, confident self-image should keep most people from being preyed on. Your thoughts? Remember this is a martial arts site, not a branch club of the NRA.
> 
> And finally, I'm still not 100% sure the bear spray will work on a bear. I hope I never have to prove it one way or another.


 
I think that if I answer this post, we will derail the thread from OC Spray to usefulness of weapons carry, which is beyond the scope of this thread.

But one of your fellow Canadians posted a similar question here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44469

That would be a more on-topic place to discuss your comments, I would think.


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## LawDog (Jan 21, 2007)

I too used to be an instructor for the use of mace, tear gas etc for bith law enforcement and at civilian cources. Everyone on this thread has expressed very valid points about the use of an "airborne" self defense system. I will give my views which are the smae as most of you.
Positive Side:
*Can slow an attacker down,
*Can be used while attempting to run away,
*Non-Lethal,
*Can be concealed,
*No noise level, many timid people won't use a loud weapon,

Negitive Side:
*Cold weather, pepper spay is immersed in a solution, it must vaporize to relase the pepper properly,
*Attacker on drugs, will not feel the effect,
* Carried correctly-
    A-Can't get to/find the container,
    B-Not carried so you know which way the nozzel is pointing.

Expiration dates of oc/pepper very seldom checked, they should be check every on a regular basis.
Most users, when /if they can, should use their arm or hand to cover their own face area when using, they could be down wind or in a cross wind. Even in a building, vent. systems, AC units etc. can cause a wind effect.
Most victims will tell attacker that they have mace before it is even out, they should just take it out. Only point it at the attacker when he gets into range of the mist. If you point it to soon he will change his attack mode, probably by covering his own face with his shirt/jacket etc.
This is just some of my experience with the "airbourne" stuff.


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## Drac (Jan 21, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Expiration dates of oc/pepper very seldom checked, they should be check every on a regular basis.


 
Yes.. An EXCELLENT and often overlooked task..




			
				LawDog said:
			
		

> Most users, when /if they can, should use their arm or hand to cover their own face area when using, they could be down wind or in a cross wind. Even in a building, vent. systems, AC units etc. can cause a wind effect.
> Most victims will tell attacker that they have mace before it is even out, they should just take it out. Only point it at the attacker when he gets into range of the mist. If you point it to soon he will change his attack mode, probably by covering his own face with his shirt/jacket etc.
> This is just some of my experience with the "airbourne" stuff.


 
More EXCELLENT points..
1.Don't announce that you have mace/OC, just use it..
2.Cross contamination SHOULD be a concern

And above ALL make sure you are pointing the _"business end"_ toward your attacker..Recently heard a story where a local copper decide to spray this resister..He pulled his canister and wound up spraying himself in the face..


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## LawDog (Jan 21, 2007)

When most people pull out their cans of OC they will fumble with it and most of the time they will be looking at the OC can instead of their wood-be attacker. Looking down is not good brecause,
*In a darkened area you could loose sight of him,
*Not see a second attacker hiding off in another area.
This could help.
Take a coffee cup stirrer, cut it down to about a 1/2 inch to 1 inch in length. Now place it on the upper portion of the OC can, (vertically), and directly under the cans spray nozzel. Using black electrical tape, secure it to the OC can. In this way, when you pull the OC can out your hand can feel where the top of the OC can is and which way the nozzel is pointing. You will not have to look away from the wood-be attacker.


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## Drac (Jan 21, 2007)

LawDog said:


> When most people pull out their cans of OC they will fumble with it and most of the time they will be looking at the OC can instead of their wood-be attacker. Looking down is not good brecause,
> *In a darkened area you could loose sight of him,
> *Not see a second attacker hiding off in another area.
> This could help.
> Take a coffee cup stirrer, cut it down to about a 1/2 inch to 1 inch in length. Now place it on the upper portion of the OC can, (vertically), and directly under the cans spray nozzel. Using black electrical tape, secure it to the OC can. In this way, when you pull the OC can out your hand can feel where the top of the OC can is and which way the nozzel is pointing. You will not have to look away from the wood-be attacker.


 
An EXCELLENT suggestion....


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## jks9199 (Jan 21, 2007)

LawDog said:


> When most people pull out their cans of OC they will fumble with it and most of the time they will be looking at the OC can instead of their wood-be attacker. Looking down is not good brecause,
> *In a darkened area you could loose sight of him,
> *Not see a second attacker hiding off in another area.
> This could help.
> Take a coffee cup stirrer, cut it down to about a 1/2 inch to 1 inch in length. Now place it on the upper portion of the OC can, (vertically), and directly under the cans spray nozzel. Using black electrical tape, secure it to the OC can. In this way, when you pull the OC can out your hand can feel where the top of the OC can is and which way the nozzel is pointing. You will not have to look away from the wood-be attacker.


Great point.

At work, our OC canisters are designed so that we can feel front from back (in fact, the safety cover keeps you from pushing the button until you turn it around).  For civilians, I always advise them to make sure that whatever OC canister they buy, they can tell front from back without looking at it.  Too many of the "nifty keychain gadgets" or "self defense aerosols" out there are ROUND, with no way to tell front from back.  Hell -- I think that there are a few out there that'd be hard to tell top from bottom!


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## Cruentus (Jan 21, 2007)

The coffee stirer thingy is good thought, but it seems a little drawn out. I don't think that people are likely going to go through that trouble (particularly women and such who carry it).

I say just get the kind that jks uses with the thumb safety so that you can kinestetically reference where it is pointing (and you can't point it at yourself on accident), and just keep it in a seperate pocket. It doesn't go in the pocket with your keys, or in your purse where you have to dig for it. It gets it's own pocket or compartment.

We have found that this provides easiest access with less accidental discharges...


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## holger_danske (Jan 23, 2007)

I've personally used OC twice.
The first time was on a drunk and it had no apparent effect.
The 2nd time was a direct shot in the eye of one of two young hicks trying to jump me.  In that instance, the guy I squirted dropped to the ground and his buddy was so confused/concerned because he didn't see what happened that I had about a 10 sec window of opportunity to get in my car and drive away.
Even though my results were mixed, I still think OC is a valuable tool. In the 2nd scenario, had I been forced to go hand to hand with these two guys, we were all likely to get hurt. Had I been carrying a gun or knife instead of OC... well, I don't want to think about what might've happened.  My OC made it possible for a very dangerous situation to be diffused without any serious damage.
I guess my message is that while I think OC can be useful, it shouldn't be your sole method of defense.


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## LawDog (Jan 23, 2007)

I agree with the last posting, I have also had mixed results. It is still a good, non lethal weapon/tool.


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## Drac (Jan 23, 2007)

LawDog said:


> I agree with the last posting, I have also had mixed results. It is still a good, non lethal weapon/tool.


 
I agree with LawDog and holger_danske...


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## LawDog (Jan 24, 2007)

I miss the old mace / pepper spray, it utilized alcohol as a suspension solution. If the pepper or mace ingrediants didn't work you could always change it into a flame thrower. 
Years ago a bad guy was smoking a cigar when the alcohol based pepper spray was fired. Great Balls of Fire!


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## Drac (Jan 24, 2007)

LawDog said:


> I miss the old mace / pepper spray


 
Not me..Worked as a bouncer before entering LE..There were always lot of fights and the boss had a can of the "good-ole-stuff" he would use when there was a large group that wouldn't disperse..Well his eyesight wasn't all that good and many of his employees wound up getteing sprayed it and the damn stuff *burned*...


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## LawDog (Jan 24, 2007)

I was just kiding on using the old stuff, especially the oc and tear gas. The pepper seems to have the best overal performance so far.


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## Drac (Jan 24, 2007)

LawDog said:


> I was just kiding on using the old stuff, especially the oc and tear gas. The pepper seems to have the best overal performance so far.


 
I feel better..


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## Infinite (Jan 24, 2007)

I have a follow up question. How hard is it "realisticly" to train to use OC effectively?

I mean a gun takes years of practice and constant vigiliance (actually pretty much any weapon does). So is OC better in that th learning curve and the practice length for effective use is shorter for the consumer?

Or are we putting a tool in their hand they can't use ?


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## LawDog (Jan 24, 2007)

To train realisticly to use OC properly should be broken down into two main areas,
Professionals:
The majority of their training comes from their fellow,(long term), veteran officers and their own on the job experience. The use on non lethal force is always formost in their thoughts, especially against an unarmed confrontation.

Non Professionals:
Many receive little or no training in the use of OC. Most have never had an occasion to use the OC so they tend forget about it until a need arises. Then a mild form of panic will set in and everything that they have been trained or told about the use of OC will be forgotten.


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## LawDog (Jan 24, 2007)

Examples of training.
Professionals:
Every day the put their firearm on, placing in the same location. Then they make sure that their OC and impacting type weapons are placed in a certain location on their person. Every night they remove them. Every day they are handling these weapons/tools twice a day. This will make them self aware of the weapon and where they are located all of the time. This is much like your working out in the dojo, every time that you throw a front punch you become aware of what it is and what it does.

Non Professionals:
Most of the non professionals who carry OC will place it somewhere so that it will be on their person or around them all of the time. Example, in the cars glove box, in a purse etc. Then they forget about it. 
What they should do is every morning or every time they go out take th OC in hand and place it on their person, everytime that they return home they should remove the OC and place it in a place safe. Now they will handle the OC twice a day and become self aware of what it is and where it is. As I stated before this is much like the training in the dojo.


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## Carol (Jan 24, 2007)

LawDog said:


> To train realisticly to use OC properly should be broken down into two main areas,
> Professionals:
> The majority of their training comes from their fellow,(long term), veteran officers and their own on the job experience. The use on non lethal force is always formost in their thoughts, especially against an unarmed confrontation.
> 
> ...


 
LOL!  Well said.

I think it has a value and has its place.  I don't personally carry it since our state requires a license for it but I may reconsider if I get approved for my Class A license to carry.  

Personally I prefer a tactical flashlight over OC spray but that's just me.  I have more uses for a screamingly bright light than I do for OC spray


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## Drac (Jan 24, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Personally I prefer a tactical flashlight over OC spray but that's just me. I have more uses for a screamingly bright light than I do for OC spray


 
Plus there is no worries about cross-contamination...


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## Cruentus (Jan 24, 2007)

Drac said:


> Plus there is no worries about cross-contamination...


 
That depends on which direction you point the light..  lol



> have a follow up question. How hard is it "realisticly" to train to use OC effectively?


 
It's not hard, but it is no different then training for a regular self-defense situation. The best way to train with this is to get "inert" spray, and learn both SD skills and how to carry and deploy spray, and then run scenarios with a padded assailant where one uses the inert spray in scenarios. The padded assailent has to react realistically, of course.

So you basically train for what it is, which is simply another tool in the toolbox...


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## Drac (Jan 25, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> That depends on which direction you point the light..  lol


 
True..There are a whole lot of variables to consider..


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## Cruentus (Jan 25, 2007)

Drac said:


> True..There are a whole lot of variables to consider..


 
I was totally kidding though... I sure hope no one "beams" themself instead of the attacker!


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## Drac (Jan 25, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> I was totally kidding though... I sure hope no one "beams" themself instead of the attacker!


 
It has happened..That's why we train...


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## Infinite (Jan 25, 2007)

This highlights my point however...

No one trains with OC but LEO's. So people who buy OC are really buying a false sense of security. People at least marginally intellegent ones know that you have to train to use a gun effectivly.

I doubt those same people are aware you have to train to use OC effectively. I still think that a tazer is a better tool for those that aren't familure with weapons.

At least they are point and click granted I haven't ever used one (or trained to use one) so perhaps I'm falling victim to my own statement. Perhaps tazers also require that level of training to use effectively.


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## LawDog (Jan 25, 2007)

A Tazer is in the same classilication as an impact tool, it can, if used incorrectly become a lethal weapon.
Tazer Pro:
*It will knock down a large or aggressive attacker,
*It is more effective than OC,
*Most of the time it is not weather restricted like the OC spray is.

Tazer Con:
*Depending on the type- it must be aimed or make direct contact with
your opponent. They are very range specific,
*If the attacker has a heart problem or pacemaker the shock from the Tazer could cause a lethal result,
*The Tazer units batteries must be maintained,
*In some cases the attacker will come out of the shock stage quickly and attempt to re-attack so a second charge has to be used,
*Depending on the type, some or the projectile type Tazer units are as large as a gun,
*The Tazer should not make contact to the attacker in his neck or head area.

These are a few of the areas that should be considered before you buy one. Unfortunitly the bad guys are using tazers as well.


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## Drac (Jan 25, 2007)

LawDog said:


> A*In some cases the attacker will come out of the shock stage quickly and attempt to re-attack so a second charge has to be used


 
He is correct..There was an OSP that wound up "zapping" an arrested suspect numerous before he complied, and that's with one of the LE models..ARe the civilian models as strong...


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