# Blade material



## PhotonGuy (May 14, 2015)

With the advanced knowledge in metallurgy I don't see why they wouldn't use a titanium alloy for sword blades. They have used that for certain sports gear and for knife blades as well, so I don't see why they wouldn't use it for swords.


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## Uchinanchu (May 14, 2015)

Who are the 'they' that you are referring to? And is there a specific type of sword that you are referring to?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drop bear (May 14, 2015)

It is brittle I think. Mission use them for knives. Carbon steel still rates as a go to steel though. So we haven't really found a better alloy for blades yet.


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## Dirty Dog (May 14, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> With the advanced knowledge in metallurgy I don't see why they wouldn't use a titanium alloy for sword blades. They have used that for certain sports gear and for knife blades as well, so I don't see why they wouldn't use it for swords.



Because titanium makes crap blades, mostly. It won't take a decent edge. It won't hold an edge. It's brittle.
The only bonus to a titanium blade is that it won't rust, so some people like them for diving, since even stainless rusts, especially in salt water. 
But they're still crappy blades.


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## PhotonGuy (May 14, 2015)

Uchinanchu said:


> Who are the 'they' that you are referring to? And is there a specific type of sword that you are referring to?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Sword makers in general. I've seen all sorts of swords from all sorts of makers, but I've never seen any that are made with a titanium alloy.


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## jks9199 (May 14, 2015)

Perhaps you should research the metals used in various blades.  The particular blends or types of metal used (various levels of carbon, chromium, even titanium) are selected based on the purpose of the blade.  It's a balancing act of flexibility, rigidity, how well it holds an edge, rust or stain resistance...  Whatever the qualities fit the use of the blade.  There's generally a reason for the particular alloy in each blade.


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## elder999 (May 14, 2015)

Because titanium sucks......for blades, especially swords, its generally inferior to steel. The cost of making a hardened, beta metastable titanium alloy with the  correct characteristics for having a sword edge, then actually working it into a large blade make steel all the more attractive.


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## Transk53 (May 14, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Because titanium sucks......for blades, especially swords, its generally inferior to steel. The cost of making a hardened, beta metastable titanium alloy with the  correct characteristics for having a sword edge, then actually working it into a large blade make steel all the more attractive.



So anything other than Sci-Fi, the blade mixture could not be bonded and shaped.


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## Dirty Dog (May 14, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> So anything other than Sci-Fi, the blade mixture could not be bonded and shaped.



No, you could certainly make a titanium sword. 
It would be total crap, but you could make it.


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## elder999 (May 14, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> So anything other than Sci-Fi, the blade mixture could not be bonded and shaped.


 
Not quite true-it's just not worth the effort and expense required to get the blade to anything like the quality of a multitude of steels. There *are* beta metastable titanium alloys that would be _adequate _for swords, but I wouldn't want one, and really wouldn't want to bother making one.


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## kuniggety (May 15, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> The only bonus to a titanium blade is that it won't rust, so some people like them for diving, since even stainless rusts, especially in salt water. .


That's the only reason why I have a titanium knife... my dive knife so it will never rust.

The problem with titanium is that it is too hard of a metal and so it's brittle. Steel, in particular carbon steel, has a malleability to it, giving it much more survivability/making it much more practical.


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## Langenschwert (May 15, 2015)

A good sword is not just an oversized knife. It has to have certain qualities (flexibility, vibrational nodes, etc) that a simple knife doesn't need. Thus far, the best thing discovered has been steel. 5160 is a very common modern analogue for medieval steel.


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2015)

Well a blade made entirely of titanium might not be a good blade but it could be a titanium/steel alloy. Usually alloys are better than elements with metal. People are saying steel is one of the best materials out there for blades but supposedly titanium is stronger so I was thinking a titanium/steel alloy for the blade.


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## Tgace (May 24, 2015)

I don't know that modern sword making needs to be concerned with better materials seeing that nobody really uses them for real combative use anymore.


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2015)

Tgace said:


> I don't know that modern sword making needs to be concerned with better materials seeing that nobody really uses them for real combative use anymore.



People still do use blades quite a bit for combative use and self defense. Its not uncommon for soldiers and infantry men to carry knives. Blades are silent, you don't need to load them, and they are less regulated than firearms in lots of places.


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## Tgace (May 24, 2015)

Swords and knives are different animals.

Various alloys are already being used for knife blades:

Knife Blade Steels - KnifeCenter

Materials


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## jks9199 (May 24, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> People still do use blades quite a bit for combative use and self defense. Its not uncommon for soldiers and infantry men to carry knives. Blades are silent, you don't need to load them, and they are less regulated than firearms in lots of places.


Blades.  Not swords. 

The closest thing I'm aware of in current military use to a sword is either the Gurkha's kukri or machetes.


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## Langenschwert (May 25, 2015)

Tgace said:


> I don't know that modern sword making needs to be concerned with better materials seeing that nobody really uses them for real combative use anymore.



People still train with swords, and those who spar with them need them to have the same (or ideally greater) resilience as their historical counterparts. They have to be constructed so that when they break, they break straight across, not on an angle so people don't get stabbed in tournaments. If a modern material could be made that behaves like steel and is even more resilient to the rigours of training, I'd be very interested. A good steel training sword that's safe for sparring and tournaments will run about $500, and will last a maximum of a couple of years if you're lucky. It may still need repairs such as replacing the grip and wrap which get banged up easily, not to mention the odd broken crossguard. I replace mine every 1.5 years on average, which gets expensive. At Longpoint 2013, the organizers supplied the swords. They were made by Ensifer, and are very durable. The crossguards curve gently towards the blade. By the end, they were curving backwards towards the handle and had to be hammered back to true. That's a lot of impact. Seems pretty combative to me!


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## Tgace (May 25, 2015)

Reenactment is a different story. Nobody is taking to the battlefield to kill or be killed with swords these days, so the drive for weapon development in the long blade realm just isn't there anymore...


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## Langenschwert (May 25, 2015)

Tgace said:


> Reenactment is a different story. Nobody is taking to the battlefield to kill or be killed with swords these days, so the drive for weapon development in the long blade realm just isn't there anymore...



True, the motive now is profit. The drive will increase as HEMA does, at least for long training blades. For sharps, it is important that they adhere as close to historical originals as possible, so there's no reason to improve on them. Then again, we haven't even equalled the finest historical examples yet. Modern high-end sharps would probably fall under the "pretty darn good" category when compared to their predecessors. 

Reenactment is a different beast than historical sword arts. Since their combat is largely ahistorical, they overbuild their weapons to make them last, and have their requirements largely fulfilled. HEMA on the other hand, is still defining what it needs... the development now is the creation of blades that are safe and allow for the use of historical techniques. Even so, modern training blades are still based on historical trainers. The so called "federschwert" is now very common. It hasn't been improved upon since the 15th Century, just modified for different clubs' needs.


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## Hyoho (May 25, 2015)

As far  as Japanese swords go the answer is yes. They can and do make blades that are better than they produce in Japan. But problematic if you try to take one into Japan as it will be seized at customs. They still make them the same old way there and always will as its a 'tradition'.


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## Ken Morgan (May 26, 2015)

If the Japanese smiths of old had access to the materials and processes we have today, they would have gotten rid of tamahagane a very long time ago.


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## Langenschwert (May 27, 2015)

Yeah, the invention of the blast furnace saw the demise of pattern welded swords in Europe. Swords got better, to be sure, but there's something just magical about swords like these:


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## pgsmith (May 27, 2015)

Langenschwert said:


> Yeah, the invention of the blast furnace saw the demise of pattern welded swords in Europe. Swords got better, to be sure, but there's something just magical about swords like these:


  Absolutely! I'm a big fan of Daryl Meier, and love some of the things he's done with pattern welded steel ... Meier Steel Portfolio - Meier Steel


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## pgsmith (May 27, 2015)

Have to throw in a few lines about why modern swords are not made of titanium, since it seems to come up on a semi-regular basis. Here's my understanding of it ...
  By weight, titanium alloys are generally stronger, and can be made more resilient than steel. This is why so many modern constructs brag about being made with titanium. The key words in there are "by weight". A sword needs a certain amount of mass behind it in order to be able to be used properly. To make a two pound sword out of titanium alloy would give you a blade that was shaped more like a crow bar than a traditional sword (although some modern "sword" companies make steel swords like that anyway!  ) A titanium sword in the same size and shape of a steel sword would be too light to properly operate as a sword.

  The second part of the equation, is making the edge hard enough to stay sharp without making the entire thing too brittle to withstand the forces generated. To harden titanium alloy to a spring hardness makes it much more resilient than steel, but not hard enough to hold a decent edge. To harden it enough to hold an edge, makes the rest of it too brittle. While I'm sure it would be possible to manage to differentially harden a titanium alloy to achieve both a hard edge and more resilient body, the process would be much too difficult to render it anything other than a scientific curiosity.

  In the couple of thousand years that swords have been in use, they still haven't found a better alloy to use for them than steel.


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## elder999 (May 27, 2015)

pgsmith said:


> While I'm sure it would be possible to manage to differentially harden a titanium alloy to achieve both a hard edge and more resilient body, the process would be much too difficult to render it anything other than a scientific curiosity..



A most succinct and accurate post, Mr. Smith....I've left the above bit for emphasis....it is more than possible, it's been done-but it's not really worth the effort, for all the reasons you've posted.


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## pgsmith (May 28, 2015)

Thanks Aaron,
Always good to have confirmation that I've actually managed to absorb some of the information I come across!


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## Hyoho (May 28, 2015)

I should have added that Japanese swords falling under the ju to ho (gun sword law) are controlled by the Bunka cho (Cultural office) The way they interpret rules such as bringing  blades in and out  is determined by the present head of that offices interpretation. This could mean anything from just a simple local document to having you licence sent back to Tokyo for pick up. I had problems just getting blades out let alone bringing them in. Technically a blade is not a blade unless there is a mekugi ana and does not have to be registered. So I was able to bring out shoto as kitchen knives.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 4, 2015)

Well there is, or was Damascus Steel. Supposedly its a lost technology but I've heard people claim they still use it. This video talks about Damascus Steel swords at 1:33


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 4, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well there is, or was Damascus Steel. Supposedly its a lost technology but I've heard people claim they still use it. This video talks about Damascus Steel swords at 1:33



There is no shortage of bladesmiths making Damascus steel. 
Most of what people claim about it is bunk. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Blindside (Jun 5, 2015)

helgajones said:


> I have been looking for the best kitchen knives but sad to say I haven't found one yet. Any suggestions you guys?



http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-4-...2194&sr=1-2&keywords=knives+victorinox+fibrox

Most of my knives are older Henckels, but these absolutely rock.


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## Hyoho (Jun 5, 2015)

helgajones said:


> I have been looking for the best kitchen knives but sad to say I haven't found one yet. Any suggestions you guys?


We have been using the same Global Knife (Japanese) every day since 2006.


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## pgsmith (Jun 5, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is no shortage of bladesmiths making Damascus steel.
> Most of what people claim about it is bunk.


  Not exactly ...
  What most people refer to as "Damascus steel" is simply pattern welded steel. Beautiful to look at in my opinion, but not what was originally sold in the middle ages as "Damascus steel". A number of metallurgists have spent time investigating the properties of original Damascus steel, and have managed to reproduce it. The modern terminology for it is "Wootz". The visible pattern in old Damascus steel, and modern Wootz steel, is developed during the smelting process and not by folding different alloys together as pattern welded steel is made.
  I do agree that quite a lot of the claims made about it are bunk.

  As for kitchen knives, I have heard great things about Shun. A couple of my friends swear by them. However, I have not been able to make myself pay that much for kitchen knives, so I can't say first hand.


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## lklawson (Jul 1, 2015)

pgsmith said:


> A number of metallurgists have spent time investigating the properties of original Damascus steel, and have managed to reproduce it.


Claim to have, anyway.

One of the more interesting avenues of research was into potential carbon nano-tubes that one researcher found in historic wootz.

Sharpest cut from nanotube sword Nature News

Nanotech Used 2000 Years Ago to Make History s Sharpest Swords WIRED

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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