# Does Size Matter?



## Danjo (Nov 11, 2010)

I just read an article by Charles C. Goodin where he discussed the pros and cons of having many students versus a few students. 

He pointed out that the masters of old usually only had a few students at a time and had _very_ few senior students to carry on the art.

Clearly the idea of having fewer students is that it allows more time per student, ie., a better opportunity to focus on details etc. The idea of having many students is that it pays more and is neccessary of one is to make a living teaching martial arts fulltime.

I wonder if there is any inherent advantage to having a large number of students? Are you more impressed with someone that has a great number of black belts under him (and black belts under them)? Or does it make any difference when you evaluate soneone?

Do you prefer to train in a large dojo/school, or a small one? Do you prefer a large number a training partners, or a few good ones? etc. etc.

Can large numbers of people be trained to a high level of quality, or does this depend on the simplicity or complexity of the art that one is training in?


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## KenpoVzla (Nov 11, 2010)

From the student perspective...definitely quality over quantity......plus most dojos have limited space anyway, so training in a crowded environment while throwing punches and kicks in the air, not really the ideal situation.

I'm really focused when I train and like to keep it intense, therefore, few like minded hard training partners is a LOT more worth it to me.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 15, 2010)

Quality over quantity in my book!  I have seen many a school that is large have just a couple of decent practitioiner's.  On the other hand I have witnessed more than a few times small groups having several excellent practitioner's!  Myself I prefer to keep things small and work very hard to keep the quality high!  Just my 02.


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## chrispillertkd (Nov 15, 2010)

Danjo said:


> I just read an article by Charles C. Goodin where he discussed the pros and cons of having many students versus a few students.


 
I think I just read that same article. In _Classical Fighting Arts_, right? That's actually one of the few MA magazines out there that's worth more than a cursory glance, IMHO.



> He pointed out that the masters of old usually only had a few students at a time and had _very_ few senior students to carry on the art.
> 
> Clearly the idea of having fewer students is that it allows more time per student, ie., a better opportunity to focus on details etc. The idea of having many students is that it pays more and is neccessary of one is to make a living teaching martial arts fulltime.
> 
> I wonder if there is any inherent advantage to having a large number of students? Are you more impressed with someone that has a great number of black belts under him (and black belts under them)? Or does it make any difference when you evaluate soneone?


 
Let's not forget that at least part of the reason why people back in the day only had a few students was that martial arts weren't considered to be for "public consumption." With the shift in Japan to Bu_do_ away from Bu_gei_ in the early 20th century (and, honestly some time before that) martial arts, especially the new forms that were developed, were viewed as being _primarily_ for self-improvement. It was a movement from the "elitism" of the bujutsu to the more "egalitarian" budo. People such as Kano and Funakoshi were big believers that anyone could train in, and profit from, martial arts. 

The lack of time for individual, detail-oriented instruction that Goodin points out is an important point. While time is a limited commodity I know several instructors who have larger schools that _require_ students to receive private instruction along with normal classroom instruction. This allows for a more detailed approach in areas in which the students might need help. 

I would also find it hard to believe that people are only training in classes of 40+ students. My instructors' school is pretty large (they have about 100 active students, IIRC) but class size cab vary depending on the day of the week, time of the year, rank level of class, etc. from 30 or so on the high side to half a dozen. When the classes are smaller it is normal to do more in-depth teaching, but even so details are covered as best that they can in larger classes through the use of assistant instructors taking sub-groups of students and working with them while the head instructor oversees what's going on. 

As for any inherent advantage of having a lot of students, I'm not really sure. Obviously, it helps monetarily (and as St. Paul said, the laborer is worth his wage). In some sense this isn't just a help for the instructor but for the students as well. There's tons of stories out there about martial arts mansters being supported by their students. I don't know of too many people, no matter how "traditional" they are, who would want to provide for their instructor's material needs, even if it was divided between 5 or 6 students. Having a group of 50 or more people contribute, on the other hand (in the form of monthy fees) makes things ore manageable, no? 



> Do you prefer to train in a large dojo/school, or a small one? Do you prefer a large number a training partners, or a few good ones? etc. etc.


 
Well, it depends. If by a large or small dojo you mean the physical building itself, I prefer a larger one (although not mammoth). Something big enough to be able to perform patterns, line drills, sparring, etc. without having to worry about running into other people, the wall, etc. 

It is better to have more training partners because that way you get a broader exposure to people/styles. If you only train with the same 3 or 4 people you lack variation. Heck, even with 40 people or so you're limited in what you have to expect and adjust for, but at least it's more. That is definitely a strength of having a bigger school, I'd say.

Also, just because you have a few training partners doesn't mean they're going to necessarily be good ones  This is true especially if the school is new or if it's experiencing an enrollment fluctuation. 



> Can large numbers of people be trained to a high level of quality, or does this depend on the simplicity or complexity of the art that one is training in?


 
It depends on the art, as well as on the students and their desire to learn and (perhaps most importantly) on the skill of the instructor(s). I don't mean on their physical ability. I know several Taekwon-Doin who are awesome tachnicians who I wouldn't want to train under because they aren't great _teachers_. On the other hand, a good friend of mine was telling me about a Kung-Fu Sifu he's seen at several tournaments who is completely underwhelming when he puts on a demonstration. But the vast majority of his students are excellent technicians. That's the mark of being a great _instructor_.

Pax,

Chris


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## MJS (Nov 15, 2010)

Danjo said:


> I just read an article by Charles C. Goodin where he discussed the pros and cons of having many students versus a few students.
> 
> He pointed out that the masters of old usually only had a few students at a time and had _very_ few senior students to carry on the art.
> 
> ...


 
IMO, I'll go with quality over quantity any day of the week.   OTOH, I suppose it all depends on the school owner.  Ex: Owner A doesn't run his school for profit.  He has a "9-5" type of job, so he isn't relying on the school for $$$.  Owner B runs a school as his sole source of income, so yes, in that case, having students will make a difference.

Then again, just because one needs students for the $$, doesnt mean he should produce crappy students.  IMO, the quality, should always outweigh the quantity.


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## billc (Nov 15, 2010)

I think a lot of students works itself out.  Most of them will not stick around, so eventually you have  a core of several dedicated students anyway.  Also,  I am currently doing DTS kali, and kali is an art that needs a lot of hands on time with people.  Having different sizes, strengths, skill levels and weights to work around is a good thing as well.  Sure, people who only train for a little while may burn up some energy, but at the same time, it keeps you going over the basics, it helps remind you how to break your art down for beginners and will eventually give your senior students people to practice their teaching skills on.  As an instructor you can also give more time to your core students in their own class or after regular hours.


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## Yondanchris (Jan 1, 2011)

I am definately a quality over quantity type of guy! My old Dojo had a ratio of 7-9:1 and I continue that tradition. 
More time for personal attention and focus on technique and advancement. 

I have visited many large dojos and am very surprised at the amount of work and "sempai" required to get the classes just to run..much less teach! 

I am a volunteer instructor, I have a "9-5" type of job which allows me to focus some of my "extra" time into the lives of my students.
The goal of my time is to create people of extrordinary Christian Charchter and proficient in their martial arts knowledge - 
the combination of which is deemed as a "Christian Black Belt". 

I highly support small dojo's which focus on the lives and charachter of their students. 
To create true "masters" of their art! 

But I will applaud any Sensei that is able to keep these standards in a large dojo format! 

My humble .02 cents!


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## Big Don (Jan 1, 2011)

I learn better one on one, BUT, I don't really, fully understand until I have attacked and been attacked on whatever technique. It all depends on the student, the group dynamic and the skill of the instructor.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Jan 1, 2011)

I am a member of two large studios. One is American Kenpo, the other is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu..
the BJJ school has about 300+ students and is just BJJ.
The AKK studio have about 450 who are solely AKK, and another 150+ who participate in boxing, kickboxing, JJ, MMA, etc.

I see a couple things here.

I personally like training with the best quality people available for myself.
I like teaching a vairety of different peopel from stark beginners wanting to learn, intermediate students needing to sharpen their skills, and advanced students who are on the right path and need that attention to detail to improve.
WE get that in a large school.
We have people who are doing martial arts for several different reasons, and have several different dedication levels.
It helps me tremendously to understand what works and doesnt work for different types of people, what accelerates their learning, stiffles their learning, motivates, demotivates, pushes, breaks, excites... etc.etc different types of students.
I get to see approaches for the same movements from stark beginners to people who have trained for near 40 years.
When I am working on new skill sets I try those out on the smaller or newer, or less skilled people first to learn,a nd then work my way to the most advanced and toughest to test its validity for me.
I couldnt do that if I was in a small school with the 5 toughest guys around, my training and learning would be very limited.
If I didnt plan on teaching for my lifetime it might make sense for me to be in a smaller place with less students who are more focused and aggressive.. But the experience is invaluable not only to myself, but countless of students who will come to me in the future.


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## LawDog (Jan 2, 2011)

I do prefer a 1 on 1 setting but this does have it's limitations. Setting up and running larger classes is very easy if you trained your instructors properly.
Over looked advantages of larger classes,
*Students get to train with a large cross section of people, like one would find in the streets,
*Beginners can train with advanced students and advanced students can train with beginners. It is important for senior ranks to remember how a person of lesser skill fights and thinks,
*All senior instructors should be trained in leadership, larger classes will give them a better opportunity do do this,
*Masters training, a larger student base can and does help the Seniors and Masters with their training. Everyone has their own point of view about different things, especially beginners. Their diverse point of veiw can help open minded instructors "and" Masters from developing personal "tunnel vison".
*Prevents all of the students from looking like their instructor, we are all different in thought and physical abilities,
Small 1 on 1 training.
*This is obvious, the student will develop quicker, including knowledge.
Best solution,
A student should train both ways, group classes combined with private lessons given by senior instructors.


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## Big Don (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm a big guy, several of the other Black Belts are just tiny (one is 4'9" and maybe a 100 pounds soaking wet) we have average size people too, but, having to work with people with a large size difference is a huge plus.


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## youngbraveheart (Aug 27, 2012)

Going back to the 50's and 60's, there are only two hand fulls of black belts in the Chow/Chun System. I currently train with two of them. In my twelve years, we've never had more than 6 people training at one time.

My early years were spent in the corner by myself in the horse stance (one on one with my teacher most of the time) while the advanced students were doing techniques.


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## seasoned (Aug 27, 2012)

youngbraveheart said:


> Going back to the 50's and 60's, there are only two hand fulls of black belts in the Chow/Chun System. I currently train with two of them. In my twelve years, we've never had more than 6 people training at one time.
> 
> My early years were spent in the corner by myself in the horse stance (one on one with my teacher most of the time) while the advanced students were doing techniques.



Old school. The stuff small classes are made of.


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## Aiki Lee (Aug 28, 2012)

I believe there are pros and cons to both. From a student standpoint, less guys means more personal instruction geared more specifically to what you need to work on, smaller groups of dedicated people are the best as you get enough body types to train with and you have good partners who attack right instead of throwing noodle punches everywhere except where you are standing. On the other hand, if you have a small group of people who are hobbyists at martial arts then the energy could be dead and training can get boring with only a few partners to choose from.

From a teaching perspective, I find it easier to engage a large group of people than a small group, unless the small group are hardcore enthusiasts. In a large group I feel more energized, but in a small group I can pay more attention to the individual needs of the students and form a more personal connection with them.


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## geezer (Aug 30, 2012)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I am a member of two large studios. One is American Kenpo, the other is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu..
> the BJJ school has about 300+ students and is just BJJ.
> The AKK studio have about 450 who are solely AKK, and another 150+ who participate in boxing, kickboxing, JJ, MMA, etc.



450 students, plus another 150+ doing other martial arts! MA schools of that size are something outside my experience. How many people train at one time in a typical class? What kind of facility or physical plant is required? And, are there a arge group of assistant instructors running the drills? How do you break down the student teacher ratio?


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## Gentle Fist (Aug 30, 2012)

Depends on the style too.  A sport art such as BJJ or Judo does better with more students since players have a plethora of different opponents to test their game on.  A kenpo school, on the other hand would probably be better with a smaller class so student's get more individual time with the instructor.


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