# Why Don't Many of Kenpo's "Top Guns" Spar?



## Seabrook (Aug 29, 2007)

One thing that I truly believe in is spontaneity training. No, not just drills. But via fighting someone who is trying to hit you back, and hard. One of the reasons, in my opinion, why a lot of MMA guys are tough, is because they fight....a lot. 

If someone holds a high-ranking black belt, say 6th degree and higher, shouldn't they continue to strap on the gear and lead by example to improve their students (and themselves)? 

One problem that I believe many Kenpo black belts have is that they, for all intensive purposes, worship the 154 techniques. They believe that all they need to do is practice them over and over, dazzle the crowd a bit with their speed and knowledge, and they are fighting machines. 

I have a lot of respect for all high-ranking black belts who continue to humble themselves to the level of student, by continuing to fight with their students and peers for the betterment of their students and themselves. 

For more thoughts on this, please see my new blog:


http://jamieseabrook.blogspot.com/2007/08/high-ranking-black-belts-that-dont-spar.html


Thoughts?


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## stoneheart (Aug 29, 2007)

Well said, Mr. Seabrook.  I think it's important to still get on the floor and duke it out occasionally even if one is senior in both years and experience.  We all know that hotshot brown belt in his twenties can sometimes best even a highly ranked dan grade in sparring.  It's important as a complete teacher to both understand that for yourself and to not let ego stand in the way of a junior student besting, since sometimes that's another way to teach...


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## Monadnock (Aug 29, 2007)

One factor may be age. I don't know that many older folk who still get into full contact sparring. Then again, I don't know who is included in the "Top guns" bracket either.

Sparring is only a piece of the pie in most systems. How important it is varies with the teacher. I don't think all advancement is stopped because a teacher does not spar.

My $.02


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## Sigung LaBounty (Aug 29, 2007)

Well Mr. Seabrook, this is a good topic. Let me answer it as one of those "Seniors" who does 'strap it on and bangs'
Using the 7th degree as a starting point. I received my 7th from the SGM in 1985, I was 47 years old. You're a 6th, accomplished as an artist, author and connected to a valid lineage and you're in your early 30's. Most likely you'll receive your 7th while in your 30's whereas in my day, and many others even younger than I, were in their 40's when they got their 7th's, some even older. Now it's important to delineate 'banging' as a 30+ old man and a 40, 50+ man who has weathered the storms of the early days. No gear, poor protection when available, and improper methods of execution that resulted in numerous injuries that have become residual wounds that hamper any sort of 'banging' to the extent that I think you're speaking of.
The fighting now in my lineage is primarily kick boxing influenced, i.e. leg kicks, knee's, elbows. We also do primarily Ne-Waza from Judo as our method of ground work, though like most, we are very influenced by the MMA techniques. All of my students MUST know how to fall, roll, and wrestle at the minimum. This is done for the very reasons you mentioned, that it never escapes the student that it is a _[IMartial Art_ and must always been seen as that first. We don't do, and haven't done in a long time any form of point fighting. It's just not our choice at this stage of our developement.
So, I at 65 years of age, I grapple with a 16 year old female, my senior male and female students too, and get my *** handed to me there, then kicked by them during stand up. BUT, I freakin' love the "juice" and the limberness it offers. Thank God, they don't go all out, I would be in several baskets around the school other wise.
So let me leave you with an old man and higher ranked perspective. In my day(I hate a sentence that starts like that, but...) no gear, result, broken jaw, twice, all the fingers on my left hand broken, right boxers fracture, knee's shot from football, power/olympic lifting, ne-waza, Judo, catch wrestling, et.
I doubt I would be much of a workout for someone like you, especially in view of all the arts you're interested in or studied. But, you wouldn't have to go looking for me, I'd be trying....
Good subject
In spirit.
S. LaBounty


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## LawDog (Aug 29, 2007)

I agree with Sigung Labounty and Mr Seabrook. I for one do not worship the "preset" one steps. These presets are training tools that are used to help develope the basic / advanced pattern skills. For application you need live drills combined with "standing" and / or "ground" free style.
:boxing:


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## MattJ (Aug 29, 2007)

Refreshing to hear from seniors that still get out there. Much respect.


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## Seabrook (Aug 29, 2007)

Sigung LaBounty said:


> Well Mr. Seabrook, this is a good topic. Let me answer it as one of those "Seniors" who does 'strap it on and bangs'
> Using the 7th degree as a starting point. I received my 7th from the SGM in 1985, I was 47 years old. You're a 6th, accomplished as an artist, author and connected to a valid lineage and you're in your early 30's. Most likely you'll receive your 7th while in your 30's whereas in my day, and many others even younger than I, were in their 40's when they got their 7th's, some even older. Now it's important to delineate 'banging' as a 30+ old man and a 40, 50+ man who has weathered the storms of the early days. No gear, poor protection when available, and improper methods of execution that resulted in numerous injuries that have become residual wounds that hamper any sort of 'banging' to the extent that I think you're speaking of.
> The fighting now in my lineage is primarily kick boxing influenced, i.e. leg kicks, knee's, elbows. We also do primarily Ne-Waza from Judo as our method of ground work, though like most, we are very influenced by the MMA techniques. All of my students MUST know how to fall, roll, and wrestle at the minimum. This is done for the very reasons you mentioned, that it never escapes the student that it is a _[IMartial Art_ and must always been seen as that first. We don't do, and haven't done in a long time any form of point fighting. It's just not our choice at this stage of our developement.
> So, I at 65 years of age, I grapple with a 16 year old female, my senior male and female students too, and get my *** handed to me there, then kicked by them during stand up. BUT, I freakin' love the "juice" and the limberness it offers. Thank God, they don't go all out, I would be in several baskets around the school other wise.
> ...


 
You are such a great inspiration and leader. I give you so much respect. 

I have to get the opportunity to learn from you.

I will send you a PM sometime soon.


With honor,

Jamie


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## Seabrook (Aug 29, 2007)

LawDog said:


> I agree with Sigung Labounty and Mr Seabrook. I for one do not worship the "preset" one steps. These presets are training tools that are used to help develope the basic / advanced pattern skills. For application you need live drills combined with "standing" and / or "ground" free style.
> :boxing:


 
I concur wholeheartedly.

Great post.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 29, 2007)

Sigung LaBounty said:


> Well Mr. Seabrook, this is a good topic. Let me answer it as one of those "Seniors" who does 'strap it on and bangs'
> Using the 7th degree as a starting point. I received my 7th from the SGM in 1985, I was 47 years old. You're a 6th, accomplished as an artist, author and connected to a valid lineage and you're in your early 30's. Most likely you'll receive your 7th while in your 30's whereas in my day, and many others even younger than I, were in their 40's when they got their 7th's, some even older. Now it's important to delineate 'banging' as a 30+ old man and a 40, 50+ man who has weathered the storms of the early days. No gear, poor protection when available, and improper methods of execution that resulted in numerous injuries that have become residual wounds that hamper any sort of 'banging' to the extent that I think you're speaking of.
> The fighting now in my lineage is primarily kick boxing influenced, i.e. leg kicks, knee's, elbows. We also do primarily Ne-Waza from Judo as our method of ground work, though like most, we are very influenced by the MMA techniques. All of my students MUST know how to fall, roll, and wrestle at the minimum. This is done for the very reasons you mentioned, that it never escapes the student that it is a _[IMartial Art_ and must always been seen as that first. We don't do, and haven't done in a long time any form of point fighting. It's just not our choice at this stage of our developement.
> So, I at 65 years of age, I grapple with a 16 year old female, my senior male and female students too, and get my *** handed to me there, then kicked by them during stand up. BUT, I freakin' love the "juice" and the limberness it offers. Thank God, they don't go all out, I would be in several baskets around the school other wise.
> ...


 

This is a good post and very informative.  Times do change and as we all age we change as well.  Still we can all do and strive to be our best.  Major kudos to Mr. LaBounty for doing your best and getting out there and doing what you can do.


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## MJS (Aug 29, 2007)

I feel that it is important to get out and mix it up.  Now, we all have jobs to go to, so it is important to keep the risk of injury in the back of your mind, but I don't think that you have to go full contact all the time either.  Med-heavy contact should be good.  IMO, I just don't see how doing the preset techs and nothing more can keep you well rounded.  Mix it up and keep it alive!!:ultracool

Mike


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## terryl965 (Aug 29, 2007)

All I want to add is this remember alot of students will start to look down upon there instructor when they loose a fight or get there tail handed to them. In my opinion these folks are idiots but still hey tend to beleive that myth about us as instructor no matter age or anything else are suppose to be able to kick anybody butt. When they see it is not true anymore they tend to look else where for training, I have seen this over and over again.

Just my .02 cent worth.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Aug 29, 2007)

I think Mr. LaBounty hit the nail on the head more than many will get. At an event recently, we had several seniors from kenpo in attendence. Every single one of them has had surgery of some form for injuries associated with their martial arts activities. One guy had 2 hip replacements; one had a knee done; and one had bits of bone removed from his neck where they were pushing on his spinal cord. Which one should have been made to go a round with all 50 people in attendence?

The way I see it, the old timers did their time, and have earned the right to coach. There's the old, "Nobody expected Cus De'amato to go rounds with Ali or Tyson, but he could sure as hell tell them how to do it better" thing. I still get out and bang; I'm in my (we'll call it) mid-40's. But I don't bring the intensity I used to, because when I do, the blown discs in my back get so hoppin mad at me, I can end up in bed or on the floor for over a week. Hardly worth the satisfaction of putting some talented 20-something brown belt in his place.

That's why we train up big, hairy, ugly younger dogs as assistant instructors...so they can do it for us. I have great respect for Mr. LaBounty's willingness to clang bones in contact. I'm not near him in years, and am already backing off the high-intensity kick-boxing & grappling, for my own pain-free living's sake. Intense sparring is fun, but you still gottas be able to take out the trash and clean the kitchen the next day.

Best Regards,

Dr. Dave


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## arnisador (Aug 29, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> At an event recently, we had several seniors from kenpo in attendence. Every single one of them has had surgery of some form *for injuries associated with their martial arts activities*.



Eh, that part is discouraging, isn't it?


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## phlaw (Aug 29, 2007)

Great post Mr. LaBounty!


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## marlon (Aug 29, 2007)

My respect to Sigung LaBounty.  I love going at it.  i love my teacher hitting me harder than i thought possible and any student who wants we go.  the thing i have no respect for is teachers who compete against students in competions.  Good thread.

BTW i have been doing martial arts for 25 years and kempo for 17 and have my 4th can't imagine when i'll get my fifth let alone beyond..but what matters is that i keep learning growing and improving...training is truth.

respectfully,
marlon


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## 14 Kempo (Aug 29, 2007)

I believe I am in agreement with most on this thread, I am in my late-40's and began my martial arts in 1985, however, in no way am I a "Kenpo Top Gun". The time for big-time banging, for me, has passed. Injuries when you're 20 heal faster than when you are 30, which heal faster than when you are 40 and so on. I do get out there and mix it up a bit with 'the kids', but I don't last as long as I use to in a grappling situation ... I'm sure some of you know what I'm talking about.

As we get older we rely more on technique, experience and smarts to beat our opponents, trying to out muscle a 20-something on the ground isn't in the cards. Randy Couture, at age 44, is a phonomenon, not the norm and training is his life. 

I have a tremendous amount of respect for those that have put in the time within the art and those that teach me. The amount of information that I pick up when my seniors mix it up, even if at three-quarter or even half speed is more than I can usually process.

I could go on, but I believe I've made my point, so I'll leave it at that.

Kudos Sigung LaBounty, and all of you that are my seniors whether by time or rank, keep it up!


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## LawDog (Aug 30, 2007)

14K,
I understand what you say and agree with you about a persons injury recovery time. I am 59 and still get on the floor with those young lightning bolts. What I have done is to not "free stryle" as often as I used to. In this way the ole bod will have it's much needed recovery time. Those young lightning bolts can get away with free styling a few times a week where I free style only once every week or two.
It really sucks when you get older.
:disgust:


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## SensibleManiac (Aug 30, 2007)

This is an excellent post, although I heavily believe in sparring, I mostly believe in INTELLIGENT sparring which I do believe is missing alot of times out there. Too much ego involved instead of the betterment of those involved.
The teacher should be able to ask the student what did you learn from this sparring session. And if the student can't answer then somethings amiss. 
Also safety should be of primary importance. Being in my mid thirties, I can't go the way I used to also because of some injuries sustained admittedly because of my ego and refusing to quit, (which sometimes can be a bad thing). 
You should always be sparring to learn not hurt each other. 
I can't say what I'll be doing into my 40's or over because I'm not there yet. 
I do have tons of respect for those who continue to spar in their later years. I can honestly say I never really learned how to fight until I sparred, before that everything was just practice. My skills increased dramatically as did my confidence when I could see what I could do.


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## Sigung86 (Aug 30, 2007)

Being an oldster from the other side of the fence (Tracy Style) LOL!  I still believe I am entitled to enter an opinion here.  It never ceases to amaze me the way we sometimes have or acquire unrealistic expectations in Kenpo.  Regardless of years in the art, or at the art, if you prefer, along with the deeper knowledge and methods of deviousness and outthinking young guys, there still seems to be that need to bring down someone.  If they arent sparring, then they may not necessarily be useful, even in the rarified ranks.
I know, I know That sounds negative, but  Nay, say I.
Most of the guys who are senior now were getting their lumps and making their bones before all the rules and protections were in place.  Personally, I remember, many years ago, in a light contact match, taking a reverse spinning heel hook center in the throat.  Yeah!  My bad.  I didnt see it in enough time to pull off something amazing and block it.  I went down like a ton of bricks.  To this day, I still have bits of bone floating around in my neck because I was dim enough to simply shake it off and continue on continuing.  Theyve now been there so long that they have their own cartilaginous sheaths.  LOL.
I once soldiered on with a broken bone in my foot.  Walking with an ace wrap, tight kung fu slippers, and a cane, continuing to teach.  Once, I had a finger removed in a knife defense demo that went horribly amok and awry, because we were doing it in a wrestling wring And most of  you know how bouncy those can get.  Well, that was one aspect of the critter that I forgot about until  about half a second after I stepped off and blocked the knife attack, only to have the whole cadre bounce up in the air, and the knife (A Rambo III) come down from a bounce and take my finger. J
I have little bits of scar tissue in areas of my brain (MRI certified) that wouldnt be there had I not taken a few hard shots thrown when I was fighting 20 guys at a time.  ROFL!!!!
My point is that most of the seniors have taken their shots as well as given them.  If one gets through his Kenpo career without scars, broken bones, sprains, and dislocations, another one begins to wonder how he or she made it that far, and taught anyone anything.  Thats the price we pay for the profession weve chosen.  Hell Most warriors, in the old days, didnt live that long, anyway.  Regardless of the quality of healthcare that we have nowadays, fighting takes its toll.  I for one, still can bang, but find the price paid after, is often a bit higher than I remember it being 30 years ago.
My deepest respect to Sigung LaBounty.  And I believe he knows it, but I have to say, I dont mind not sparring with the youngsters, all that often.  They arent any fun, and they hurt!  Rofl!
Funnily, martial arts are one of the few sports where the coaches are expected to be on top 7x24 and to be better than most of the folks they are teaching.  For example, ask Mike Ditka to go play a full quarter or half game.  Think he could?  Maybe, maybe not, but he can damn sure take a bunch of youngsters with some skill, hone that skill and make them do it, at least as well as he did, if not better.  Or take my own beloved St. Louis Cardinals The guys who coach there are pretty fair at what they do, coach and teach, I question whether any of them could get out and play a real for keeps game.
Im not saying that the oldsters arent lethal.  Not by any means.  One of the things I learned is that what I lost in speed and brute force, as I aged, I made up for with stealth, sneaky, and experience.  As I said, I dont mind banging once in a while, but Id rather save it for the day I really may need it, if I can.
Maybe Jamie Seabrook should take a page from the Japanese Shotokan Stylists (Just sort of kidding here Jaime)  The students of Funakoshi Gichen so beloved and respected him that when he was teaching, well into his 90s, the students used to carry him up and down stairs in the various dojos, so as to save his strength for teaching.
Im not saying that Kenpoists need to show that kind of gratitude, or respect for senior instructors or Masters.  What I am saying is that it often doesnt work that way A sixty year old instructor may not be able to bang with the 20 year olds.  That is not his lot.  He should, however, be able to show them how to come through bad times relatively unscathed, and that  That is the use of the seniors, in my relatively humble opinion.
And before anyone really poohs on my opinion, just remember, you too will be old someday.  You may be fortunate enough to have all your bones and joints, ligaments and tendons, and such intact.  You may have never stupidly blocked a spinning heel hook with your throat, but all the little things do tend to add up over the years and you will find yourself moving slower, a little less limber, and moaning a little more "enthusiastically" the next morning.  :ultracool
Im probably really wrong here, but just thought it would be fun to throw in a contrary opinion.

Dan


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## kidswarrior (Aug 30, 2007)

Sigung86 said:


> My point is that most of the seniors have taken their shots as well as given them.  Thats the price we pay for the profession weve chosen.... fighting takes its toll.


True story.

 


> Funnily, martial arts are one of the few sports where the coaches are expected to be on top 7x24 and to be better than most of the folks they are teaching.  For example, ask Mike Ditka to go play a full quarter or half game.  Think he could?


Was just thinking this myself, earlier today (it _*is *_now football season :ultracool).




> As I said, I dont mind banging once in a while, but *Id rather save it for the day I really may need it*, if I can....





> What I am saying is that  A sixty year old instructor ... should, however, be able to show them how to come through bad times relatively unscathed, and that  That is the use of the seniors, in my relatively humble opinion.


I agree. And for those of us who are as banged up as you've described yourself, if we _don't_ go carefully, we could easily find ourselves unable to even teach any longer. It's not inconceivable.



> And before anyone really poohs on my opinion, just remember, you too will be old someday.  You may be fortunate enough to have all your bones and joints, ligaments and tendons, and such intact.  You may have never stupidly blocked a spinning heel hook with your throat, but all the little things do tend to add up over the years and you will find yourself moving slower, a little less limber, and moaning a little more "enthusiastically" the next morning.  :ultracool


Already there, Brother. 



> Im probably really wrong here, but just thought it would be fun to throw in a contrary opinion.


Well, I agree with you, for what it's worth. And while we may be in the minority, I would say to have serious merit, this discussion would have to be limited to those over a certain age--and I don't mean 30 :lol:


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## Southwell (Aug 31, 2007)

Good post, I like your example of the Martial arts where the teacher is expected to be better than the students, so true. I don't really see that anywhere else. Even in boxing I've never looked in the fighters corner and thought, man that little old guy who's telling that boxer what he's doing wrong could really kick some butt, lol  


Sigung86 said:


> Being an oldster from the other side of the fence (Tracy Style) LOL! I still believe I am entitled to enter an opinion here. It never ceases to amaze me the way we sometimes have or acquire unrealistic expectations in Kenpo. Regardless of years in the art, or at the art, if you prefer, along with the deeper knowledge and methods of deviousness and outthinking young guys, there still seems to be that need to bring down someone. If they arent sparring, then they may not necessarily be useful, even in the rarified ranks.
> I know, I know That sounds negative, but  Nay, say I.
> Most of the guys who are senior now were getting their lumps and making their bones before all the rules and protections were in place. Personally, I remember, many years ago, in a light contact match, taking a reverse spinning heel hook center in the throat. Yeah! My bad. I didnt see it in enough time to pull off something amazing and block it. I went down like a ton of bricks. To this day, I still have bits of bone floating around in my neck because I was dim enough to simply shake it off and continue on continuing. Theyve now been there so long that they have their own cartilaginous sheaths. LOL.
> I once soldiered on with a broken bone in my foot. Walking with an ace wrap, tight kung fu slippers, and a cane, continuing to teach. Once, I had a finger removed in a knife defense demo that went horribly amok and awry, because we were doing it in a wrestling wring And most of you know how bouncy those can get. Well, that was one aspect of the critter that I forgot about until about half a second after I stepped off and blocked the knife attack, only to have the whole cadre bounce up in the air, and the knife (A Rambo III) come down from a bounce and take my finger. J
> ...


 ​


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 31, 2007)

Everyone has to find their own way and their own time and place for doing things.  Personally I respect everyone who trains hard and if you do not spar that is fine too.  There is a lot to be learned from the wisdom of instructors that have taught for a long time even if they are not in their physical prime as they may have reached their mental/spiritual prime.  I have been exposed to several of the best as they have aged and that exposure has had a profound effect on my own training and learning curve.


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## seninoniwashi (Aug 31, 2007)

Sigung LaBounty said:


> Well Mr. Seabrook, this is a good topic. Let me answer it as one of those "Seniors" who does 'strap it on and bangs'
> Using the 7th degree as a starting point. I received my 7th from the SGM in 1985, I was 47 years old. You're a 6th, accomplished as an artist, author and connected to a valid lineage and you're in your early 30's. Most likely you'll receive your 7th while in your 30's whereas in my day, and many others even younger than I, were in their 40's when they got their 7th's, some even older. Now it's important to delineate 'banging' as a 30+ old man and a 40, 50+ man who has weathered the storms of the early days. No gear, poor protection when available, and improper methods of execution that resulted in numerous injuries that have become residual wounds that hamper any sort of 'banging' to the extent that I think you're speaking of.
> The fighting now in my lineage is primarily kick boxing influenced, i.e. leg kicks, knee's, elbows. We also do primarily Ne-Waza from Judo as our method of ground work, though like most, we are very influenced by the MMA techniques. All of my students MUST know how to fall, roll, and wrestle at the minimum. This is done for the very reasons you mentioned, that it never escapes the student that it is a _[IMartial Art_ and must always been seen as that first. We don't do, and haven't done in a long time any form of point fighting. It's just not our choice at this stage of our developement.
> So, I at 65 years of age, I grapple with a 16 year old female, my senior male and female students too, and get my *** handed to me there, then kicked by them during stand up. BUT, I freakin' love the "juice" and the limberness it offers. Thank God, they don't go all out, I would be in several baskets around the school other wise.
> ...


 
LaBounty,

An excellent reply

I think alot of people out there misunderstand the upper ranks in Kenpo - it's more about embracing more of the dragon then the tiger.

Kudos to you LaBounty! My hat's off


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## still learning (Sep 1, 2007)

Hello, Why top Kenpo's do not spar? ....our bodies grow older, heals slower, moves slower. Yet internal power grows stronger.

Plus we get WISER!  we turn from student to teacher....pass things on!

In most sports, boxing, wrestling,tennis,swiming,basketball,football, (any physcial sport....is very demanding on the body,  that is why it is mostly younger people in the teens and early thirties are able to perform and compete.

NOT to say many older Kempo/Kenpo seniors do not spar....many still do.

As one gets older...priority changes too, MOST seniors feel it is NOT neccessary to spar to defend themselves.  (we use our brains more).

The skills we learn from a lifetime of training is built in from doing things over and over for years (remember it takes about 2000-3000 or more of one technique to make it a part of you).  Many of them...know what will work for them, just that the body is getting very older and less strong than as a youth.

One day you will see yourself in this group (seniors) above 50's...and find it is NOT necessary to spar.

Just my opinion here,  Awareness and Avoidance....are the true lessons (never get yourself into confrontations).   Seniors know what they can do IF and ONLY IF!  defend oneself or help others.........Aloha


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## kidswarrior (Sep 1, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, Why top Kenpo's do not spar? ....our bodies grow older, heals slower, moves slower. *Yet internal power grows stronger.*
> 
> * Plus we get WISER!*  we turn from student to teacher....pass things on!
> 
> In most sports, boxing, wrestling,tennis,swiming,basketball,football, (any physcial sport....is very demanding on the body,  that is why it is mostly younger people in the teens and early thirties are able to perform and compete.


Good points, especially: internal power + wisdom = knowing you can get it done in a real situation, but not practicing in full pads, full contact (or even 3/4) everyday (slipped back to the football analogy for a minute )

*



			NOT to say many older Kempo/Kenpo seniors do not spar....many still do.
		
Click to expand...

*And I want to state for the record I have the utmost respect for those in their late 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond who still spar. But we all have different histories, and a different list of injuries, to contend with. 



> As one gets older...priority changes too, MOST seniors feel it is NOT neccessary to spar to defend themselves.  (we use our brains more).
> 
> The skills we learn from a lifetime of training is built in from doing things over and over for years (remember it takes about 2000-3000 or more of one technique to make it a part of you).  *Many of them...know what will work for them, just that the body is getting very older and less strong than as a youth.*
> 
> ...


Yes, many of us save the *all-out* for the time we may really need it. :asian:

BTW, don't want to give the impression I'm one of the 'Top Guns' mentioned in the OP, because I'm not; just an old war horse.


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## LawDog (Sep 1, 2007)

A Senior is not defined by his rank, he is one who has put decades into and has contributed alot for his art.
I have been told that if you enjoy doing something then don't let your age stop you.
:highfive:


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## 14 Kempo (Sep 1, 2007)

I'm in my late forties and I still spar, but to bang full speed, full contact, well, it's not done too often, if at all. Since moving on from where I was, I have visited a few different schools and participated in classes. They are a bit shocked at the contacted used in my techniques, which tells me that I was raised correctly, with contact ... I call it light contact, which it is, in no way is it full contact. Even during sparring, I have had competitors come up to me, after beating my butt and tell me that I am the one they would never want to run into in the street, cause of the power. This is the greatest compliment I could receive, cause sparring, afterall, is a game.

Nowadays, my sparring usually consists of me working on something in particular, rather than just banging. I may work on kicking. I may work strictly on defense, no striking, just trying to not get hit. Maybe sweeping; trapping; checking; off-balancing; evasion ... you get the drift ... pick one thing, and work on it. I lose my matches in the dojo, I personally don't care. I care about whether or not I was able to get anywhere on what I was working. I am there to learn, I can not learn as much winning every match. I learn by trying things and making mistakes ... and thus gain experience. If I'm going to make mistakes, I want it to be during training where we are all friends, not on the street. Sparring allows me to try things, to grow, without my life on the line.

Again, I am in no way a "Top Gun", however, sparring is a tool. Not going full contact may lessen the tool in some minds, but not in mine. Granted it may be saving me some pain, not going all out, but I can assure you, cause I know me, it is saving others a great amount of pain. MA is fun, but to me it is not a game. Sparring is a necessary tool, but for all intents and purposes, it is a game, not real life, even if banging full speed. Real life will be much more intense and move much faster. The sparring experience can go a long ways towards slowing down the real life confrontation ... again, it is a tool, a game. IMHO.


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## Seabrook (Sep 2, 2007)

Great responses from everyone, no doubt. 

Let's dig a little further.

I think most are on the same page that continuous sparring (at least medium contact or harder) can be very beneficial for one's skills. But why is it that many students (local, national, or international) of some of Kenpo's "top guns" have never once seen the instructor spar, let alone heard of it?

Granted, sparring may not be the instructor's "cup of tea". But, in my humble opinion, he/she should still set the example and AT LEAST periodically (once every month or couple of months) get out there and show them how it is done. 

I hear and read of a lot of Kenpoists saying they don't like sparring because it is too limited (I agree BTW - sparring and a streetfight are NOT the same thing). But then they use that to excuse the fact that they hardly ever spar and that sparring won't help them. I disagree completely. 

Mr. Labounty commented that he still gets out there, and takes shots (albeit not necessarily full-out, of course). He even says that he's on the receiving end from time to time. He has my utmost respect. He truly leads by example. He is a true warrior. It's not about winning or losing; it's about passion and leadership.

Here is my point. I understand that age takes a toll on our body big-time. But naturally, I am often swayed towards the seminars of instructors that have a truckload of experience in all areas of their training, of which sparring is but one. That is one of the reasons why when I was a WKKA member back in the mid 1990s I just loved the seminars given by guys like Frank Trejo and Dennis Nackord. Those guys are known for their sparring ability. 

In response someone might say: "but we all have something that we specialize in, maybe its techniques, maybe its forms, maybe its sparring, maybe its teaching, ect". I agree. But to be COMPLETE martial artists, including those who hold high rank, shouldn't we be striving to balance out and work at ALL  aspects of our training, of which sparring cannot be neglected?

Why is Randy Couture so good? Because he works at it, daily. Yes, he will probably need to retire soon. But I bet my bottom dollar, that when he does retire, he will still train others and get out there and SHOW THEM by example what he wants.

My former kung fu instructor is in his high 50s. He fight continuous EVERY week against many top black belts (he wins too, BTW). How is he able to do it? Persistence and passion. Does this look like a guy in his high 50s:

www.northernblackdragon.com


I welcome thoughts. These discussions are great.

BTW - if anyone missed my orginal blog to start this thread, it can be found here:


http://jamieseabrook.blogspot.com/2007/08/high-ranking-black-belts-that-dont-spar.html


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## kidswarrior (Sep 2, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Here is my point. I understand that age takes a toll on our body big-time.


With all due respect, Mr. Seabrook, I'm not sure you really do understand this point. I see from your info that you're in your early 30s. So, I'm going on that assumption (please correct me if I'm wrong). Now, even in my early _40s_ I could still run down teenagers. I could play football with them in pickup games, basketball, volleyball, and, ...well, you get the idea. Today at 56, my knees are so shot that, yes, I might be able to chase down a group of teens that needed to be caught (not a game, but if they had or were about to cause a dangerous situation for the kids I work with), but the long-term effects on my knees would most likely be permanent damage. So, should I practice running every day--or week, or month--to be 'in shape' for the possibility of the real thing? I don't think so.




> Why is Randy Couture so good? Because he works at it, daily.


 But he doesn't have to go to work--even as  a MA teacher--the next day. And he hasn't had to do so in a 9-5 job for the last 20 years, which also has a cumulative stress effect. BIG difference.



> Yes, he will probably need to retire soon. But I bet my bottom dollar, that when he does retire, he will still train others and get out there and SHOW THEM by example what he wants.


But having spent a good portion of his life devoting all day every day to staying in shape--and getting paid to do so--his body may be in a different place at that age than someone with a different history. 



> My former kung fu instructor is in his high 50s. He fight continuous EVERY week against many top black belts (he wins too, BTW). How is he able to do it? Persistence and passion. Does this look like a guy in his high 50s:
> 
> www.northernblackdragon.com


 I have nothing but respect and admiration for your former instructor, but again, everyone's life has been different. I've found it's a very, very slippery slope to tell someone else what they should do. JMHO :asian:


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## Seabrook (Sep 2, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> With all due respect, Mr. Seabrook, I'm not sure you really do understand this point. I see from your info that you're in your early 30s. So, I'm going on that assumption (please correct me if I'm wrong). Now, even in my early _40s_ I could still run down teenagers. I could play football with them in pickup games, basketball, volleyball, and, ...well, you get the idea. Today at 56, my knees are so shot that, yes, I might be able to chase down a group of teens that needed to be caught (not a game, but if they had or were about to cause a dangerous situation for the kids I work with), but the long-term effects on my knees would most likely be permanent damage. So, should I practice running every day--or week, or month--to be 'in shape' for the possibility of the real thing? I don't think so.
> 
> 
> But he doesn't have to go to work--even as a MA teacher--the next day. And he hasn't had to do so in a 9-5 job for the last 20 years, which also has a cumulative stress effect. BIG difference.
> ...


 
I never told anyone what they should do. Everyone has their own choice. The title of the thread is in the form of a question. I simply asked why it is that many of Kenpo's "top guns" avoid slapping on the gear? I ask in humility, but I do ask. 

I will continue to fight regularly until my body says "no more". 

As a die-hard Kenpoist, I hear from so many Kenpoists why Kenpo is the best of the best. My question:

The best at what? Forms? Sets? Techniques? Street self-defense? Concepts, theories, and principles? Fighting? If the latter, then why don't many fight regularly? Kenpo isn't taken a serious as it should be in MMA because they don't believe we can fight ourselves out of a wet paper bag. Definitely harsh, but definitely true. I have been told this by MANY MMA guys.


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## kidswarrior (Sep 2, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> I never told anyone what they should do....The title of the thread is in the form of a question.


Yet your choice of examples of people in their 40s and 50s who still do what you obviously believe others should do, shows that your question is actually rhetorical, with the expected answer implied. 



> I will continue to fight regularly until my body says "no more".


 That's all well and good, but when will that be? At 32 it's a bit early to lay an undercurrent of judgment on those 10-25 years beyond you who have reached that 'no more' point.



> As a die-hard Kenpoist, I hear from so many Kenpoists why Kenpo is the best of the best. My question:
> 
> The best at what? Forms? Sets? Techniques? Street self-defense? Concepts, theories, and principles? Fighting? If the latter, then why don't many fight regularly? *Kenpo isn't taken a serious as it should be in MMA because they don't believe we can fight ourselves out of a wet paper bag.* Definitely harsh, but definitely true. *I have been told this by MANY MMA guys.*


So now it seems that this is your real concern: Is Kenpo better than MMA, and can it be proved/disproved by sparring/MMA fighting? That's a much different question than the one posed in the OP, which actually could be seen as pointing a finger at some of those who have lived much longer than you have and therefore are much more experienced in life, and have made life choices with which you disagree.


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## Seabrook (Sep 3, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Yet your choice of examples of people in their 40s and 50s who still do what you obviously believe others should do, shows that your question is actually rhetorical, with the expected answer implied.
> 
> That's all well and good, but when will that be? At 32 it's a bit early to lay an undercurrent of judgment on those 10-25 years beyond you who have reached that 'no more' point.


 
It should be evident from my posts that, yes, I believe that leaders in Kenpo with loads of rank should also spar. It sets an example. It also takes a lot of physical and mental conditioning.

Is it a fair assumption that you don't spar often?


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## kidswarrior (Sep 3, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> It should be evident from my posts that, yes, I believe that leaders in Kenpo with loads of rank should also spar. It sets an example. It also takes a lot of physical and mental conditioning.
> 
> Is it a fair assumption that you don't spar often?



I'm trying not to take your question as an _ad hominem_ attack which is being employed because your other tack hasn't worked. But I'll answer you anyway, even though my point all along has not been about sparring per se, but that no one has a right to sit in judgment of others, and especially not juniors of seniors--in age, if nothing else.

I don't 'spar' at all, in the dueling sense. But it's not really about age in my case, although it would be if I continued to bang away as if I were still 40. It's because I'm philosophically against it as a training tool for street self-defense. Having cross trained in Kung Fu San Soo, I believe the San Soo workout--some might see it as a type of sparring, I suppose-- prepares the MAist for the real deal much better. If you aren't familiar with San Soo, you can visit the CMA section for some background. Now, _this doesn't mean I advocate San Soo instead of sparring for everyone_. I don't know everyone, or their goals, desires, abilities, or background. But it also means I don't judge them for practicing the MA's their own way.

Now if they're one of my students, then I'm responsible for them, and so I do guide their development. But outside of that, what other MAists do in good faith is not my concern as long as it doesn't affect me. And if they're 15-30 years older than I, I show respect regardless of their position. Just the way I was raised.


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## Danjo (Sep 3, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Granted, sparring may not be the instructor's "cup of tea". But, in my humble opinion, he/she should still set the example and AT LEAST periodically (once every month or couple of months) get out there and show them how it is done. ...
> 
> 
> 
> Why is Randy Couture so good? Because he works at it, daily. Yes, he will probably need to retire soon. But I bet my bottom dollar, that when he does retire, he will still train others and get out there and SHOW THEM by example what he wants.




But he's not going to be at the same level he once was. Couture is considered a phenomenon because it is unusual for someone that age to perform at that level. I think that the above mentioned Cus Damato analogy is the best one in terms of what a senior has to offer even into old age. Cus made Patterson a champion and then 25 years later, Tyson. I don't think that he had to step in, strap on the gear and go rounds with either of them to do that. Yet, they both had very similar styles because he taught them both the same way.

For their own sakes, seniors should get in there and spar often enough for their reflexes to stay sharp and for them to retain their ability to not flinch at a thrown punch etc., however, I think another reason is there for some seniors not to spar often with their juniors: braggarts.

How would it feel to have some young punk come in and spar with a well known senior and get the better of him and then for this person to go out and brag that he bested so-and-so? Remember Ron Van Clief in one of the early UFCs? He was beat, but he was in his fifties. The guy that beat him wasn't beating the Ron VanClief in his twenties, but because he went out to fight, the guy was able to say he beat him. Regardless of the fact that this same senior could have wiped the mat with this same young punk twenty years earlier, the guy still goes around bragging. Who needs that aggravation? How hard would it be for some average 26 year-old light-heavy weight kickboxer to beat Joe Lewis now? How would that same guy have fared were he fighting the Joe Lewis of 1975? I doubt very much that Trevor Berbick was overly proud of beating Ali in 1981. If he could have done it in 1971, _then_ he'd have something to talk about.

I think the Eddie Futches and Cus Damatos have a great deal to teach their students about fighting without banging away with them to show them how it's done. If they want to get in there and do it from time to time, cool. Otherwise their value is in being able to teach you to do what they were able to do and to get you to be as good as you can be.


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## Big Don (Sep 3, 2007)

It occurs to me that the most obvious reason is usually the best: Perhaps some who don't spar, simply don't like sparring, and having nothing to prove, feel no need to. My Sifu is a Fifth and he spars with us every week. Because sparring is his favorite activity.


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## Seabrook (Sep 4, 2007)

Danjo said:


> For their own sakes, seniors should get in there and spar often enough for their reflexes to stay sharp and for them to retain their ability to not flinch at a thrown punch etc.
> 
> Remember Ron Van Clief in one of the early UFCs? He was beat, but he was in his fifties.


 
Good points Danjo. 

You said it yourself - seniors should spar OFTEN ENOUGH to keep their reflexes sharp. I personally also think that it sets a great example for one's students.

About Ron Van Clief - I remember Royce Gracie beating him by submission in one of the earlier UFCs. If I recall, Ron is a 10th degree black belt, with black belts in several styles. I think Royce was a 4th or 5th degree black belt at the time. I wholeheartedly agree that Royce was fighting a guy who was not in his 20s anymore. The age difference was like 25 years or something. BUT, the fact is that Ron is a true warrior for doing what he did, and at the end of the day, lost nothing. He proved that he could hang with one of the top fighters on the globe, and that he is the real deal. 

Ron would be a guy that I would love to learn from if the opportunity arose one day via seminar or what have you.


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## Seabrook (Sep 4, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> no one has a right to sit in judgment of others, and especially not juniors of seniors--in age, if nothing else.
> 
> I don't 'spar' at all, in the dueling sense.
> 
> And if they're 15-30 years older than I, I show respect regardless of their position. Just the way I was raised.


 
I respect everyone. Please don't say that I don't show respect because you know nothing about me. But I don't always have to agree with people. As such, I disagree completely on your take on sparring, and on a PERSONAL level, think that all high-ranking black belts should still spar periodically.

Sorry, I am not trying to offend you. I just disagree with you.


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## Seabrook (Sep 4, 2007)

Big Don said:


> It occurs to me that the most obvious reason is usually the best: Perhaps some who don't spar, simply don't like sparring, and having nothing to prove, feel no need to. My Sifu is a Fifth and he spars with us every week. Because sparring is his favorite activity.


 
Good post, and hats off to your instructor.


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## kidswarrior (Sep 4, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> I respect everyone. Please don't say that I don't show respect because you know nothing about me. But I don't always have to agree with people. As such, I disagree completely on your take on sparring, and on a PERSONAL level, think that all high-ranking black belts should still spar periodically.
> Sorry, I am not trying to offend you. I just disagree with you.


No, you still think this is about me. You're not offending me; you're judging a whole _generation_ of people who have lived a lot longer than you. To me that shows a lack of respect, but since we're from different generations, maybe that's just my own limited viewpoint. 

Just to illustrate this limited perspective, though, let me point out that I and thousands like me got orders to ship overseas in the middle of a very ugly war, before you were born. Now, I'm not judging you for that; none of us chooses his date of birth or age. But I am saying maybe we should think about others' possible life journeys--especially those with much longer personal time lines--before we make sweeping generalizations about what they _should_ do with their lives. 

Anyway, 'nuff said on my part. I'm getting tired of 'hearing' myself talk. :asian:


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## Monadnock (Sep 4, 2007)

I think too much credit is given to sparring.

For one, it does not reflect street fighting.
Two, for those who do not realize this, it creates a false sense of ability.
Three, it is generally done with rules to protect those involved, so there is no element of fear/anxiety/fight or flight, which are all common reactions in a real fight.

It's more of an excercise really, with the appearance of being practical on the street. I think most senior teachers know this, and so why the need to keep practicing it? Kinda makes you want to look at the motives for the OP.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> I
> Kenpo isn't taken a serious as it should be in MMA because they don't believe we can fight ourselves out of a wet paper bag. Definitely harsh, but definitely true. I have been told this by MANY MMA guys.


 

I don't understand why the opinion of the MMA crowd, or any other crowd, should matter at all.  If you believe in what you are doing, and you enjoy it, sparring or no, that is what matters.

Very few people outside the MMA crowd train with the intensity that MMA people do.  They train hard for that competition.  Within the realm of "duelist" type sparring, they will probably win regardless of the style their opponent practices.  So using MMA as the yardstick against which everything must be judged, doesn't make sense.  Those who are successful in MMA have made a commitment to training and fitness that few others are able to do, and this puts them in the category of an elite athlete.  

I used to run regularly, for fitness, just because I enjoyed it.  I even competed in track and cross country running in high school.  But I never approached the level of an Olypic marathoner.  Does that mean my running was meaningless?  I still enjoyed it, and even to this day my ability to run has been my most trusted technique for escaping danger, far moreso than any kenpo training i've had, in spite of the fact that I have not run on a regular basis in several years.

Let the MMA people do what they do, and let them think what they want to think.  It means nothing to me.  My training works for what I need it to do.


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## Seabrook (Sep 4, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> No, you still think this is about me. You're not offending me; you're judging a whole _generation_ of people who have lived a lot longer than you. To me that shows a lack of respect, but since we're from different generations, maybe that's just my own limited viewpoint.


 
Respect has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with the something. Everyone deserves respect, from my opinion, because they are a card-carrying member of the human race. 

You are really getting way too bent out of shape about this......


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## Seabrook (Sep 4, 2007)

Monadnock said:


> I think too much credit is given to sparring.


 
I think not enough credit is given to sparring.


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## Monadnock (Sep 4, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> I think not enough credit is given to sparring.


 
Which only gives credence to the fact that there are as many styles of training as there are grains of sand on the beach.

Thing is, they can't all be the same, and their uniqueness is what makes each one special. Forcing them to be the same goes against the laws of nature. Just look at all the resistance met so far...


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## Danjo (Sep 4, 2007)

Monadnock said:


> I think too much credit is given to sparring.
> 
> For one, it does not reflect street fighting.
> Two, for those who do not realize this, it creates a false sense of ability.
> ...


 
I think it develops one's reflexes better than pre-set combinations due to the unpredictable nature of it. In a pre-set technique, you know what is going to be thrown at you etc., whereas with free sparring, you do not. This will help you in a street fight more than not sparring will. Secondly, it depends on the type of sparring that we're talking about. Some of it mimics a real encounter fairly closely including contact, while other types are basically games of tag. Either way, increased reflexes and stamina are valuable qualities that will help in a real encounter even if it doesn't replicate every part of a street fight.

It's the same in other sports. Batting cages and pitching machines are not the same as being pitched to by a good pitcher (Baseball or Tennis). Tackle dummies are not the same as tackling a real person. Shadow boxing, bag work and sparring are not the same as a real fight, but have been in use for hundreds of years to good effect. They're training devices that have a legitimate place in training.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2007)

Danjo said:


> I think it develops one's reflexes better than pre-set combinations due to the unpredictable nature of it. In a pre-set technique, you know what is going to be thrown at you etc., whereas with free sparring, you do not.


 
true, but you can develop drills that are in between.  An attacker doesn't announce what he will attack with, and the defender needs to respond and defend until the attacker has been nullified based on an established criteria.  This isn't free sparring, but it is a drill with a level of "randomness" in the attack and the scenario, as well as contact and force.



> Secondly, it depends on the type of sparring that we're talking about. Some of it mimics a real encounter fairly closely including contact, while other types are basically games of tag.


 
very true, and perhaps this accounts for much of the disagreement.  In many of the tournaments i have seen, participants don a plethora of bulky body armour, then hop on one foot while trying to tag the opponent with the extended other foot, all the while off-balance and clumsily slapping at whatever similar, sloppy attack the other guy is simultaneously trying to throw.  In my opinion, this kind of sparring is worthless.  And it's not just Olympic style Tae Kwon Do where I have seen this.  I've seen it in kenpo circles as well.

But sparring with less armour and more control, yet with some force and contact and realism, without regard for points, and with an intent to control the situation rather than just trade blows, can be a useful drill.



> Shadow boxing, bag work and sparring are not the same as a real fight, but have been in use for hundreds of years to good effect. They're training devices that have a legitimate place in training.


 
very true.


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## Seabrook (Sep 4, 2007)

Danjo said:


> I think it develops one's reflexes better than pre-set combinations due to the unpredictable nature of it. In a pre-set technique, you know what is going to be thrown at you etc., whereas with free sparring, you do not. This will help you in a street fight more than not sparring will. Secondly, it depends on the type of sparring that we're talking about. Some of it mimics a real encounter fairly closely including contact, while other types are basically games of tag. Either way, increased reflexes and stamina are valuable qualities that will help in a real encounter even if it doesn't replicate every part of a street fight.
> 
> It's the same in other sports. Batting cages and pitching machines are not the same as being pitched to by a good pitcher (Baseball or Tennis). Tackle dummies are not the same as tackling a real person. Shadow boxing, bag work and sparring are not the same as a real fight, but have been in use for hundreds of years to good effect. They're training devices that have a legitimate place in training.


 
Great post and analogies. I agree 100%.


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## Seabrook (Sep 4, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> true, but you can develop drills that are in between.
> 
> But sparring with less armour and more control, yet with some force and contact and realism, without regard for points, and with an intent to control the situation rather than just trade blows, can be a useful drill.


 
Good post Michael. 

I agree with your "in between" drills, but why settle for "in between"?

I like your comments about sparring types. I don't like tag-fighting for points. All of my students (and myself) fight continuous with medium to heavy contact, including leg kicks, and take-downs.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Good post Michael.
> 
> I agree with your "in between" drills, but why settle for "in between"?


 
Thank you.

I guess I don't see it as "settling" for something in between, but rather what is it you wish to get out of the drill? 

When you go face-to-face and duke it out, you are approaching fighting as something like a "duel", with two "contestants" facing off willingly and on somewhat equal footing.  This is the stuff of a competition.  If you like that approach, then go for it, but it creates a make believe scenario that I don't think reflects true self defense.  I think the drill I outlined is perhaps closer to mimicking a random attack by a thug.  He launches his attack in a way and at a time that you don't expect, and you need to respond to survive the attack and either nullify and neutralize him, and/or get away.  That is closer to what self-defense is about, in my opinion. But training this way won't give you the skills to be successful in an MMA competition.  

Facing down an opponent and willingly engaging him in a slugfest isn't really self defense.  It's more of a competition of skill and toughness.  If you enjoy that, there is nothing wrong with it, and that does have a place in the martial arts.  But it's not what everyone is interested in.  I think for real self-defense, freesparring can still be useful, but maybe not as useful as some believe.  I feel you can get very good self defense skills without true freesparring, altho I recognize that certain kinds of freesparring can also contribute to self defense skills.  

So I guess where I am seeing things, quality freesparring can be beneficial, but it isn't automatically necessary, depending on what you want to get out of your training.  Certain kinds of skills can definitely be developed without it.


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## Danjo (Sep 4, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I guess I don't see it as "settling" for something in between, but rather what is it you wish to get out of the drill?
> 
> ...


 
I agree that the drills you speak of are valuable. I know we do them in addition to sparring. Prof. Bishop will have an attacker come in with either a punch or kick of their choice while the defender has to counter/block/deflect it and finish the attacker off. It does develop skills very nicely in addtion to free sparring and both are valuable training tools.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2007)

Danjo said:


> It does develop skills very nicely in addtion to free sparring *and both are valuable training tools*.


 
bingo.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Sep 5, 2007)

Personally, I enjoy sparring but I'm only 34 and definitely not a Kenpo "Top Gun".

Sparring is a valuable training tool but I think the random drill that Michael is speaking of is more valuable for self-defense.

If I'm attacked on the street, my attacker is not likely going to be circling with probing kicks and punches in a boxing/kickboxing stance.  More likely he will try to take my head off with a power punch or sucker punch or tackle me.

The Makiwara is a valuable training tool too but I don't think it's necessary for me to harden my fists that much.  Besides, I'd like to continue playing the guitar as I age.

_Don Flatt


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## Carol (Sep 13, 2007)

If a random student joins MT and expresses that they are unhappy with the amount of sparring done at their school, what would the responses be like?

I'd predict that most of the responses would be...helpful advice over how to approach their instructor about the situation...or stories of how other MAists solved the same dilemma....or questions that ask if the student is in the right school for their goals...or something similar.

If we can show a random, unknown, unproven, student that we respect their right to choose their own Martial Arts path, then why can't we show this same respect for the folks that have earned a "top gun" rank in Kenpo?


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## LawDog (Sep 13, 2007)

Carol, that is a very interesting point of view..
:supcool:


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## Flying Crane (Sep 13, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> If a random student joins MT and expresses that they are unhappy with the amount of sparring done at their school, what would the responses be like?
> 
> I'd predict that most of the responses would be...helpful advice over how to approach their instructor about the situation...or stories of how other MAists solved the same dilemma....or questions that ask if the student is in the right school for their goals...or something similar.
> 
> If we can show a random, unknown, unproven, student that we respect their right to choose their own Martial Arts path, then why can't we show this same respect for the folks that have earned a "top gun" rank in Kenpo?


 

Bingo.  Why would I ever try to tell a senior guy that he doesn't spar enough, or he spars too much?  why would he even give two turds about what I think?  It's his own journey, as it is my own, and I would also expect the same courtesy for myself.


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## Danjo (Sep 14, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> If a random student joins MT and expresses that they are unhappy with the amount of sparring done at their school, what would the responses be like?


 
Why would someone join Muy Thai and not want to spar? I think he'd be told to find another place to train.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 14, 2007)

Danjo said:


> Why would someone join Muy Thai and not want to spar? I think he'd be told to find another place to train.


 
well, on the other hand, Muay Thai is a combat SPORT, and as such sparring and competing are the expressed goal.  It's kind of like wanting to get your driver's license, but not wanting to drive a car.  The two go pretty much hand-in-hand.

But other arts, like kenpo, are more self defense oriented.  That doesn't automatically mean you MUST spar, at least not in a sporting way.  Of course the sporting aspect is available for those who are interested, but self defense doesn't mean you must train for the sporting side of the art.  That's where the journey is your own, you decide the path(s) you wish to travel.

edit:  I just realized, I think there was a misunderstanding here.  When Carol said "join MT", I believe she meant "joint Martial Talk", and ask for advice from people here.  I don't think she meant Muay Thai.


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## Carol (Sep 14, 2007)

Correct.  I meant if a random student joined MartialTalk.  Perhaps I should have said if a random Kenpo student joins MartialTalk.


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## Big Don (Sep 14, 2007)

> Perhaps I should have said if a random Kenpo student joins MartialTalk.


I'm a random Kenpo student!
I cannot understand why someone would want to learn any form of martial arts if they weren't going to practice it. Sparring, in my humble opinion, is vital, no, it isn't a "real" fight, but, if you spar every week, and your attacker hasn't been in a fight in years, who do you think will come out on top?


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## 14 Kempo (Sep 14, 2007)

Big Don said:


> I'm a random Kenpo student!
> I cannot understand why someone would want to learn any form of martial arts if they weren't going to practice it. Sparring, in my humble opinion, is vital, no, it isn't a "real" fight, but, if you spar every week, and your attacker hasn't been in a fight in years, who do you think will come out on top?


 
I'll take a stab at this one, play devil's advocate here - hypothetically speaking of course ... 

The first fighter, a 5' 8", 140 lb, 85 year old "top gun" that has been studying since he was 12, has had six knee operations, has two ruptured discs in his lower back, needs a hip replacement, can't lift his left arm above the shoulder due to wear and tear, but has been sparring with his students twice a week since he started running a school. The second fighter, a 23 year old bar brawler, 6' 3" 225 lbs that has been in prison twice for busting people up, he has never sparred, but he's undefeated in the real world. They square up for some unknown reason, what are the odds of the guy that doesn't spar winning?

I know, making stuff up ... exactly ... we could all come up with scenarios where sparring has helped and where it had made no difference. I believe that what most people have been saying here is that there are times when sparring is not a necessity in training. I believe that if you can do it, do it, it can only help unless sustaining injury. But if a person, a top gun, has spent his whole life training on fighting within any given style, must they cane their way into a ring and spar to prove themselves ... I say hell no! They have plenty to pass on ... just my two cents.


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## Seabrook (Sep 14, 2007)

Big Don said:


> I'm a random Kenpo student!
> I cannot understand why someone would want to learn any form of martial arts if they weren't going to practice it. Sparring, in my humble opinion, is vital, no, it isn't a "real" fight, but, if you spar every week, and your attacker hasn't been in a fight in years, who do you think will come out on top?


 
Beautiful


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## Danjo (Sep 14, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Correct. I meant if a random student joined MartialTalk. Perhaps I should have said if a random Kenpo student joins MartialTalk.


 
Oh, ok. Sorry. In that case I agree. I think there are many people on "MT"/Martial Talk that don't spar.


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## jks9199 (Sep 14, 2007)

Big Don said:


> I'm a random Kenpo student!
> I cannot understand why someone would want to learn any form of martial arts if they weren't going to practice it. Sparring, in my humble opinion, is vital, no, it isn't a "real" fight, but, if you spar every week, and your attacker hasn't been in a fight in years, who do you think will come out on top?


Sparring is one means of practicing the learned techniques under one form of pressure.

Is it possible that, after many years of training which did include sparring in its appropriate time and place, a student may no longer need that particular form of practice?  Or need it much less often, and perhaps in a rather different form -- which might not even look like sparring to a less experienced student?


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## Big Don (Sep 15, 2007)

I suppose that is possible, however, then the student would miss out on the fun.


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## Doc (Sep 16, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Sparring is one means of practicing the learned techniques under one form of pressure.
> 
> Is it possible that, after many years of training which did include sparring in its appropriate time and place, a student may no longer need that particular form of practice?  Or need it much less often, and perhaps in a rather different form -- which might not even look like sparring to a less experienced student?


Well I guess it depends upon the circumstances, but I agree with you. What I call "sparring" now, some may not agree. However I did my share "back in the day" without the benefit of pads, groin protection, or shin guards and my body paid the price for it against some of the best that ever was. 

I now have this stupid thing I do called "go to work everyday," as I am not a martial artist by vocation but by hobby if you will. Paying bills and tribute to my own estrogen mafia is my vocation it seems. And unfortunately, in my "real job" I still have to "fight for real" as my life depends upon it.

Getting banged up is no longer fun, and something about being over sixty and having done my share suggests I don't need to prove it anymore. I'm still quite extemporaneously very physical in my teaching, but it would not resemble the bad habit forming "sparring" most would recognize.

While I admit at some stage of development the physicality of sparring can foster a warrior spirit and can be good toward the ultimate goal, it won't teach you how to fight.

The newbies think "sparring" IS fighting and would like to elevate it to some lofty place. (The younger they are the more fun.) It's not fighting, it's sparring. Confusing the two can have fatal results. Mr. Parker got his sparring out of the way when he was "younger and dumber" by his own accounts. And even though he stopped sparring years before his death, I don't think anyone ever suggested he couldn't fight, and I thought that was the ultimate goal.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying don't spar, but it has it's time and place, and I thing everyone should do it - in its time and place. I did!


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## marlon (Sep 16, 2007)

thanks Doc.  I appreciate your informed opinion

respectfully,
Marlon


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## Danjo (Sep 16, 2007)

I remember when I was in Shotokan we did what was called "Three-step sparring" a lot in addition to one-step and free-sparring. It was essentially a defense against three attacks that the instructor would call out and then a counter after the third attack and defense. These were very linear in design and the counters were of the "One-Punch-Kill" variety, so it left a lot to be desired interms of reality. However, I remember them REALLY helping to develop timing, distancing and reflexes when I was first learning. In Kenpo and Kajukenbo etc. there are pre-set techniques as well as drills like those mentioned above that perform the same function as the three-step sparring did in Shotokan. All of them go a long way toward helping one not flinch when  punch is thrown and help keep one's timing sharp.

I remember after I had been training in Karate for about 6 months. I was in Junior High School and a boy wanted to fight me over something I'd said (who me?). He threw two punches and I blocked them so effortlessly and reflexively and countered with a front-snap kick to his stomach so automatically that I just stood there amazed at my bad self for several seconds after the guy was on the ground. I remember just walking off like I was in a fog and even forgot my folder on the ground where I had left it. That was all from the three-step type training I had been drilled in since I didn't start free-sparring till about 3 months later.

Now, grant you this was no trained fighter I was up against, but at that moment I felt like Chuck Norris (though I probably looked more like the Karate Kid). I had stood my ground and reacted with training, rather than just run or cover up and grab on to the guy like I would have before. I haven't thought about that event in years, but this thread reminded me of the value of non-sparring drills.


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## kidswarrior (Sep 16, 2007)

Doc said:


> I now have this stupid thing I do called "go to work everyday," as I am not a martial artist by vocation but by hobby if you will. Paying bills and tribute to my own estrogen mafia is my vocation it seems.


:lfao:


> And unfortunately, in my "real job" I still have to "fight for real" as my life depends upon it.


And obviously you excel at it, since you're still around to post. 

In my real job I haven't had to physically fight (yet), although I teach a room full of felons--well, they would be if California didn't charge them under the Child Welfare code, which doesn't assign felonies to 'children' (the only way to charge a minor with an adult crime is to try them as an adult). So, for example, last week I went round after round (verbally and emotionally) over who would be the big dog and run the class--him or me, with a 17-year old who had just gotten out of lockup for holding a gun to someone's head. I would have _preferred _a physical fight, but these street savvy kids know I can't touch them so they can talk tough and not have to back it up. Still, every day could be the day when one of them decides to get sent to prison where he can be with the homies, and uses an attack against me as the means--or just goes berserk over something that happened at home--or maybe ten years ago.

By the way, it's a stand-alone class in a shopping mall miles from any other of our 'schools', no security but me, no principal's office or dean of students, no other male staff at all, PD at best 5-8 minutes away (and they're good, but that's the reality). Sparring? I've got to always be aware of crowd control and how I might isolate the one or two inciters before it gets ugly. Or possibly, which wall I would put my back to at any given moment to fend off multiple attackers. 




> The newbies think "sparring" IS fighting and would like to elevate it to some lofty place. (The younger they are the more fun.) It's not fighting, it's sparring. Confusing the two can have fatal results. Mr. Parker got his sparring out of the way when he was "younger and dumber" by his own accounts. And even though he stopped sparring years before his death, I don't think anyone ever suggested he couldn't fight, and I thought that was the ultimate goal.


Experience talking.


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## Doc (Sep 16, 2007)

Danjo said:


> I remember when I was in Shotokan we did what was called "Three-step sparring" a lot in addition to one-step and free-sparring. It was essentially a defense against three attacks that the instructor would call out and then a counter after the third attack and defense. These were very linear in design and the counters were of the "One-Punch-Kill" variety, so it left a lot to be desired interms of reality. However, I remember them REALLY helping to develop timing, distancing and reflexes when I was first learning. In Kenpo and Kajukenbo etc. there are pre-set techniques as well as drills like those mentioned above that perform the same function as the three-step sparring did in Shotokan. All of them go a long way toward helping one not flinch when  punch is thrown and help keep one's timing sharp.
> 
> I remember after I had been training in Karate for about 6 months. I was in Junior High School and a boy wanted to fight me over something I'd said (who me?). He threw two punches and I blocked them so effortlessly and reflexively and countered with a front-snap kick to his stomach so automatically that I just stood there amazed at my bad self for several seconds after the guy was on the ground. I remember just walking off like I was in a fog and even forgot my folder on the ground where I had left it. That was all from the three-step type training I had been drilled in since I didn't start free-sparring till about 3 months later.
> 
> Now, grant you this was no trained fighter I was up against, but at that moment I felt like Chuck Norris (though I probably looked more like the Karate Kid). I had stood my ground and reacted with training, rather than just run or cover up and grab on to the guy like I would have before. I haven't thought about that event in years, but this thread reminded me of the value of non-sparring drills.


 Those who decide that sparring *is* the art, obviously have to assign more value to it, than those with considerably more knowledge about real world fighting who are more rare. It has always been that way.

Sparring satisfies all the same visceral emotions of competitive sports which dominate the amateur physically athletic landscape. Also in the business of the arts, its an easy sell at all levels and requires less technical knowledge and skill as a teacher. The business is dominated by the young competitive minded, and tournament participation has always had a major impact on the business, so the promotion of sparring is natural and normal.

But "competition" has always been the creation of the young in any art and the primary contributors to the blurring of the lines between 'sparring and fighting.' Historically it required a "dumbing down" of the parent art to the chagrin of the elder scholars regardless of origin. Chinese Arts distillation of "wu-shu," or even Japanese "ju-do" and "Ken-do"are good examples. In America the first wide spread concept of the art was sport sparring, which spawned many of the well known "martial arts champions" of the heyday of the sport we are familiar with. 

However in all fairness, the initial group of sport competitors in this country  were true 'tough guys' who competed under so-called rules and circumstances, that would never be allowed today except in illegal underground fight clubs. Most brought the art with them from stints in the military services, and the bulk of their Asian Arts training consisted of brutal full contact bare bones mat-less training. 

Even Kwai Sun Chow, as Parker's primary teacher, was from this school of training where mat-work, full contact techniques, and blood on your uniform were normal in everyday training. Parker understood that, and left that behind for the most part when he had to make a living everyday. "I've done that part of my study already." he would say. "Young warriors with no mortgages, insurance, and mouths to feed have nothing to lose when they can't go to work." 

But sparring has evolved as the dominant competitors have gotten younger, softer, and lawyers and insurance companies weigh in on what is acceptable in tournaments and in your schools. I predicted and remember well when the helmets were introduced, as I watched competitors compete on hard wood and concrete floors without equipment. I knew it was only a matter of time before someone died. Ultimately several did in what was then, and largely still is, a completely unregulated "sport" activity.

So the amateur sparring today in local tournaments and schools resembles none of the sparring from the martial arts history of America. We now have tournaments dominated by children where everyone wins a trophy and participants have so many pads on, they can hardly move, and every neighborhood has champions and soccor trohphies, along with the moms that drop them off at "practice" and everybody of all ages are now warriors.

But the business of the arts has created a sharp division, as usual, between the technical side and the sport. The newbies consider the sport aspect to be the domain of the "tough guys," while most others are technically inept as schools eschew sparring for disfunctional "self-defense techniques." No wonder the sparring faction feels the way they do. Given a choice of the two, I'd vote for the sparring myself in today's environment of false masters with high rank and no skill or knowledge.

All things being as they should, sparring has its place, but is no longer a test of your masculinity or fitness, and has never been a test of your true mastership of the arts, acording to Ed Parker. I agree with my teacher.


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## Big Don (Sep 16, 2007)

I love the term _estrogen mafia_


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## Doc (Sep 16, 2007)

Big Don said:


> I love the term _estrogen mafia_



It is a very large group of much influence in all aspects of life's functions, that will resort to cohersion, physical intimidation and even violence to get what they want. They don't all know each other, but will immedaitely come to the defense of one another regardless of the circumstances. What else can you call them?


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## Sukerkin (Sep 16, 2007)

*Doc*, your contributions above in Posts#65 & 69 are very valuable indeed.  Thank you for adding your experienced views to the mix :rei:.


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## kidswarrior (Sep 16, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> *Doc*, your contributions above in Posts#65 & 69 are very valuable indeed.  Thank you for adding your experienced views to the mix :rei:.


Well said, *Suke*. Thanks, Doc. :asian:


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## Doc (Sep 16, 2007)

Danjo said:


> Now, grant you this was no trained fighter I was up against, but at that moment I felt like Chuck Norris ... but this thread reminded me of the value of non-sparring drills.



Well most fights, *IF* you have one, are not agianst "trained fighters." There is a tendancy for most to describe someone who has had more fights than you, as "trained." Most "trained fighters," don't get into street fights.

As for the "non-sparring drills," don't sell them short. In fact, that *IS* sparring. Practicing these extemporaneous drills is how the art has always been taught, and clearly it works. "Sport freesparring" is a creation of those who trained to compete as a sport, virtually created by the Japanese in the "karate" arts.  There was a great division among the old Japanese Masters when some of the newer, (and younger) introduced freesparring and split away from their "karate-do" roots, in favor of "freespar training" and created their own "ryu's."

The old masters taught the multiple step technique sparring, as you described that worked quite well. That *IS* sparring as envisioned by the progentors of the arts. "Freesparring" is a relative more modern 20th century invention for the purposes of competition. When most say "sparring" today, they mean "freesparring with rules." 

The "sparring" you speak of, under the Chinese" is even more complex, mentally taxing, and a physically demanding activity that yields more positive results and skills, than the bad habit forming point emphasis variety of tournaments. Under this definition, I and all my students are required to "spar" regularly. "Sport Sparring" is another animal, that *MAY* be rough, tough, and physical, but so is football and boxing. But, none of them are a streetfight. I've seen them all get roughed up in a streetfight where there are no rules, and lose.


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## Big Don (Sep 16, 2007)

Doc said:


> It is a very large group of much influence in all aspects of life's functions, that will resort to cohersion, physical intimidation and even violence to get what they want. They don't all know each other, but will immedaitely come to the defense of one another regardless of the circumstances. What else can you call them?


That is brilliant. You could call them lots of things, just not where any of them could hear it...


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## Doc (Sep 16, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> :lfao:
> And obviously you excel at it, since you're still around to post.
> 
> In my real job I haven't had to physically fight (yet), although I teach a room full of felons--well, they would be if California didn't charge them under the Child Welfare code, which doesn't assign felonies to 'children' (the only way to charge a minor with an adult crime is to try them as an adult). So, for example, last week I went round after round (verbally and emotionally) over who would be the big dog and run the class--him or me, with a 17-year old who had just gotten out of lockup for holding a gun to someone's head. I would have _preferred _a physical fight, but these street savvy kids know I can't touch them so they can talk tough and not have to back it up. Still, every day could be the day when one of them decides to get sent to prison where he can be with the homies, and uses an attack against me as the means--or just goes berserk over something that happened at home--or maybe ten years ago.
> ...


I couldn't do your job sir. I commend your efforts. I'd last as long as it took for one of them to get in my face and get dropped. I'm old, and I don't posture, or threaten. I act - quickly, before they figure out how old I am. It takes mucho guts to do what you do.

Deep bow sir.


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## Doc (Sep 16, 2007)

Big Don said:


> That is brilliant. You could call them lots of things, just not where any of them could hear it...



Shhhhhhh, not so loud.


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## jks9199 (Sep 16, 2007)

Doc said:


> But sparring has evolved as the dominant competitors have gotten younger, softer, and lawyers and insurance companies weigh in on what is acceptable in tournaments and in your schools. I predicted and remember well when the helmets were introduced, as I watched competitors compete on hard wood and concrete floors without equipment. I knew it was only a matter of time before someone died. Ultimately several did in what was then, and largely still is, a completely unregulated "sport" activity.
> 
> So the amateur sparring today in local tournaments and schools resembles none of the sparring from the martial arts history of America. We now have tournaments dominated by children where everyone wins a trophy and participants have so many pads on, they can hardly move, and every neighborhood has champions and soccor trohphies, along with the moms that drop them off at "practice" and everybody of all ages are now warriors.
> 
> ...


 
There's sparring... and there's sparring.  Or, as my teacher would say "there are people with footwork, and people with working feet."

As I define it -- sparring is a method of practicing the learned techniques under a particular form of pressure.  To too many people today, sparring is "swapping leather and blood and sweat"; there's no emphasis on developing the learned techniques (which they haven't even learned yet) or practice; they're just "rockin' and rollin!"  That's why so many people can "spar" but not fight.  I have a range of exercises that build to sparring, beginning with partner practices, running through controlled/assigned role sparring and eventually culminating in free sparring with various rules.


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## Dave Simmons (Sep 16, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> There's sparring... and there's sparring. Or, as my teacher would say "there are people with footwork, and people with working feet."
> 
> As I define it -- sparring is a method of practicing the learned techniques under a particular form of pressure. To too many people today, sparring is "swapping leather and blood and sweat"; there's no emphasis on developing the learned techniques (which they haven't even learned yet) or practice; they're just "rockin' and rollin!" That's why so many people can "spar" but not fight. I have a range of exercises that build to sparring, beginning with partner practices, running through controlled/assigned role sparring and eventually culminating in free sparring with various rules.


 
Doc,

Sometimes I swear we are on the same page! How true sparring is not fighting! Posturing is a beating waiting to happen. My initial teaching on fighting is targeting and attack not waiting. I guess I am too old for "games".


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## Doc (Sep 17, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> There's sparring... and there's sparring.  Or, as my teacher would say "there are people with footwork, and people with working feet."
> 
> As I define it -- sparring is a method of practicing the learned techniques under a particular form of pressure.  To too many people today, sparring is "swapping leather and blood and sweat"; there's no emphasis on developing the learned techniques (which they haven't even learned yet) or practice; they're just "rockin' and rollin!"  That's why so many people can "spar" but not fight.  I have a range of exercises that build to sparring, beginning with partner practices, running through controlled/assigned role sparring and eventually culminating in free sparring with various rules.



I love it!


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## Doc (Sep 17, 2007)

Dave Simmons said:


> Doc,
> 
> Sometimes I swear we are on the same page! How true sparring is not fighting! Posturing is a beating waiting to happen. My initial teaching on fighting is targeting and attack not waiting. I guess I am too old for "games".



Too true sir. I remember talking to Ed Parker about the differences between sparring and fighting. He gave me a littany of reasons, but one stood out to me that I'll never forget. 

"A tournament is a promise of a fight that never happens. As soon as a good punch is thrown, somebody breaks it up and you start all over again." - Ed Parker


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## LawDog (Sep 17, 2007)

Sparring:
*this is a very limited fight,
*there will usually be someone controlling the fight itself,
*the match will have many rules,
*your goal is not to win or lose,
**it is used as a live action training drill.

Fight: 
*there will be very few rules, if any,
*the fighters will try to win and not lose,
*very seldom will there be someone controlling the fight itself,
*the fighter will use his total knowledge & ability to win or survive,

Sport Fighting:
Any combination of the above.

This is but a geneal outline.
:knight:


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## Doc (Sep 17, 2007)

One of the elements missing in any conversation about "oldsters" sparring is the fact, that competition sparring has age and skill divisions to level the playing field. It seems they recognized that in that type of activity, categories were neccessary to divide participants into groups of similar age and skill. So if the "top guns" should do it, they should do it among themselves when the age and skill match up, while you others beat each other up. A young student asked Ed Parker why he didn't enter into a tournament to compete so he could win a trophy? Mr. Parker replied, "The longer you do this stuff, the smarter you're supposed to get. I've been doing it long enough to know better."


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## Flying Crane (Sep 17, 2007)

I think if someone has identified a particular Top Gun who they feel should be sparring more, maybe they should just approach that person, level their accusation, and see what happens...


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## Danjo (Sep 17, 2007)

Doc said:


> The "sparring" you speak of, under the "Chinese" is even more complex, mentally taxing, and a physically demanding activity that yields more positive results and skills, than the bad habit forming point emphasis variety of tournaments. Under this definition, I and all my students are required to "spar" regularly.


 
Are these the more pre-determined combinations, or is it more free flowing?


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## Doc (Sep 17, 2007)

Danjo said:


> Are these the more pre-determined combinations, or is it more free flowing?



Free flowing within set parameters that improve skill.


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