# karate not good enough?



## Deathtrap101 (Jul 12, 2002)

I went to a muay tai board and asked about how karate and muay tai differd and most of what i got was that i shouldn't spend ten years learning how to fight and go to muay tai and learn in 3 months. I dont blame them for defending there system but i was wondering what everyone here on karate thought about muay tai and karate? If anyone has any opinions on how muay tai is better than karate and how karate is beter than muay tai??


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## arnisador (Jul 12, 2002)

The basic question is, Given that Muay Thai fighters regularly win against e.g. kung fu fighters when they spar with them, what's the motivation for studying something else? I think there are good many answers: Multiple attackers, attacks with weapons, surprise attacks, something that can be practiced throughout one's life and not just when young, something that stengthens the body without damaging it (one may have to be careful with karate in this regard too, but there's no deadening of the shin for example), the belief that e.g. Sanchin training strengthens and improves the health of one's body, the greater range of options (locks, pressure point techniques, and so on, not just strikes), and just plain interest in the system--as well as the "fit" of the system to the student. Many karate techniques are grappling techniques intended for use against a close-in opponent, not for a toe-to-toe situation.

Muay Thai is an exceptionally effective system and a Muay Thai fighter is _extremely_ well-conditioned. Is that what you want to train for, though, or would you rather train for _your_ likely opponent--two armed muggers who surprise you at night, say? It's not clear to me that Muay Thai is especially suited to that situation.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 12, 2002)

Another point to consider:

Sport vs street vs combat vs NHB

Each area has its pros and cons.


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## Deathtrap101 (Jul 12, 2002)

YEa that was basicly my question(Why study something els if muay thai beats kung fu or karate regularaly?). I do my best to stay conditioned, i know that im no way near the condition of the average muay thai fighter but im working on that. I train under karate, im looking for the skill i geuss not necisarilly the style that i could be able to defend myself on the street and in the ring. I geuss all i can do is try differant things, condition myself more and keep in mind its not necisarily the style but hte individual and level of skill.


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> * I think there are good many answers: Multiple attackers, attacks with weapons, surprise attacks, something that can be practiced throughout one's life and not just when young, something that stengthens the body without damaging it (one may have to be careful with karate in this regard too, but there's no deadening of the shin for example),*



In regards to Karate..............ummmm  not really unless you are practicing one of the arts that practice body hardening or one of the Japanese systems. 
This is a common misconception by most non-karateka and even some karateka.
Japanese styles tend to practice very differently than older Okinawan styles (not including new styles like Goju and Uechi).
Older Okinawan styles tend be very fluid and natural in motion as opposed to the mainland Japanese derivatives that when they practice are stiff and "wooden" in appearance.
Makiwara training, if done improperly, will cause damage to the hands that may be irreparable. Traning to get big knuckles was never the idea behind makiwara training and shouldn't be. One should never hit the makiwara to the point of extreme pain. The makiwara is used to strengthen the wrist and shoulders. 





> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *........... the belief that e.g. Sanchin training strengthens and improves the health of one's body,*



That fact that most "hard-core" Sanchin people don't live to be very old should tell everyone something.
Plus the fact that most Sanchin practitioners have a high stroke rate and illness' associated with high blood pressure  is also a little alarming.


Another point to consider is that Karate is not made to slug it out toe to toe with someone.
It is made to repel an attack as quickly and painfully as possible from a larger, stronger opponent by what ever means necessary.


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## Deathtrap101 (Jul 12, 2002)

> Another point to consider is that Karate is not made to slug it out toe to toe with someone.
> It is made to repel an attack as quickly and painfully as possible from a larger, stronger opponent by what ever means necessary.



 Thanks  RyuShiKan i never really thought about it.


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 12, 2002)

Muay Thai is a great art and when I go to Thailand I like to go and watch the matches. But even Muay Thai people will tell you that you can't do it for your whole life.


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## arnisador (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *That fact that most "hard-core" Sanchin people don't live to be very old should tell everyone something.
> Plus the fact that most Sanchin practitioners have a high stroke rate and illness' associated with high blood pressure  is also a little alarming.*



Is there scientific evidence to this effect--a study? I find it a bit hard to believe that it has a long term hypertensive effect--stroke during the exertion I don't find hard to believe. I do remember getting the advice to switch to Tensho as one ages.

I was indeed thinking of Japanese karate when I said that some karate practices may be injurious (I much prefer Okinawan karate). In addition to what you mentioned, some people still straighten the arm/leg 100%, damaging the joint in the long run; and some Japanese arts do high kicks, which in the long run can damage the hip joint (as Bill Wallace and Nasty Dan Anderson have learned).

You stated "unless you are practicing [...] one of the Japanese systems"; as the question was about karate and as, to the best of my knowledge, there are more practitioners of Japanese karate world-wide than Okinawan karate (Shotokan is still the world's most popular style of karate I believe), it would seem odd to exclude Japanese karate in the answer. As I say I too prefer Okinawan systems of karate to Japanese but that doesn't change the fact that if this person is studying karate then it's more likely he's studying a Japanese style than an Okinawan one.


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




There are several elderly ex-Sanchin karateka in Okinawa that all have similar hypertensive illness' to which they blame the long term practice of Sanchin.
If you also look at the life span and cause of death for many of the karateka that practiced Sanchin for a long time you will notice a pattern that they die relativly young and often die of some sort of illness connected with strokes or hypertensive illness.
If I recall even Miyagi Chojun had a stroke.


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## arnisador (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *If you also look at the life span and cause of death for many of the karateka that practiced Sanchin for a long time you will notice a pattern that they die relativly young and often die of some sort of illness connected with strokes or hypertensive illness. *



But this is true of, what, a third or more of the general population--that they'll die of a cardiovascular problem? I think the statement you made above would be true of an arbitrary collection of people.

You may well be correct--I'm asking for more detail because it's very much of interest to me if you are.


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## Chiduce (Jul 14, 2002)

I believe each of you will find this article very interesting and informative on sanchin breathing. http://www.olemiss.edu/orgs/karate/sanchin.html

 Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## RyuShiKan (Jul 14, 2002)

Interesting article.

While I was in China studying TCM I was doing an internship at an acupuncture clinic.
The head of the clinic was interested in martial arts training methods, especially Tai Chi he even went so far as to write a book about it. He was rather well know in the Chinese MA community so he would get many people with MA related injuries.

While I was studying in the clinic many martial arts people from various types of arts would come for treatments. these would range from simple sprains to severe injuries.
Some of the best "customers" were the older martial arts people that had done body hardening exercises on their hands, arms and shins. Their joints were extremely arthritic and disfigured.
The other group that were good "customers" were the old folks that had done Sanchin  type training.
Having seen first hand the effects body hardening and Sanchin training have with age I can't recommend anyone taking them up.


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## GojuBujin (Jul 17, 2002)

The man makes the art no the art makes the man.

When you face your opponent it is not your style that faces your opponent it is you and your essence.

Whether you win or loose depends greatly on how much you have devoted  yourself to your chosen art.

The Kungfu can beat the Karate ka the Karate Ka can beat the Kung Fu guy, the Muay Thai can beat the Karate ka, the karate ka can beat the muay thai guy and so forth...

Michael
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> ...





There is an interesting article I read on the study health issues specific to Okinawan. (can't seem to find it......must be getting senile)
Some, actually most, of the problems that your average westerner has are less common among Okinawan people.
For example in women breast cancer is very rare and in men prostate cancer is so rare they don't even bother to test for it. 
If you have ever heard that Japan has one of the highest longevity rates in the world these figures are due in large part to the fact that Okinawans tend to live very long and this boosts the national average up.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GojuBujin _
> 
> *The man makes the art no the art makes the man.
> 
> ...




A good book to read and re-read over and over is Sun Tzu's Art of War.

It talks about all this kind of stuff.


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## arnisador (Aug 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *A good book to read and re-read over and over is Sun Tzu's Art of War.
> *



I'm embarrassed to say that I have three translations on my shelf because I know of its importance but I've never read any of them.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 1, 2002)

Too bad. It's a great book. In fact I would rate it higher than Musashi's Book of 5 Rings.


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## Matt Stone (Aug 1, 2002)

I have two translations, one is much better than the other (I will post the title and translator later, as I am screwing off at work right now and don't have the book handy...).

The gooder D) version is marked up heavily with notes and comments by yours truly...  Highly useful stuff, both on unit and individual levels (whereas the Book of Five Rings is more applicable to single combat in my opinion).

Gambarimasu!


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## Baoquan (Aug 1, 2002)

The Art of War is very good indeed, though appreciation IS very dependant on translation. If find it very macroscopic, however. I found alot more personal resonance in Musashi's Five Rings, i think because of the constant dual micro/macroscopic focus. 

Arnisador, i am shocked...a man of such obvious and extnesive knowledge not having read the classics? Its like a NYT book reviewer not having read "Green Eggs & Ham". 

Cheers

Baoquan.


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## arnisador (Aug 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Baoquan _
> 
> *Arnisador, i am shocked...a man of such obvious and extnesive knowledge not having read the classics?  *



Like I said, I'm embarrassed! Hey, I own three copies of it--doesn't that count for anything?


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 2, 2002)

I've got the Cleary translations of both.  I have to agree that 5 Rings is more 1-on-1 and AoW is more tactics for groups.   I think both have some good to offer though.

I'm curious on what the 'better' or  'best' translations are?

The other question is, since 5 Rings was from a Swordsmans POV, how does that apply to Karate? or is it really the same POV?

:asian:


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## Baoquan (Aug 2, 2002)

Yeah, 5Rings is written by a swordsman, but he treats his subject matter very generally. His main themes, IMHO, are avoiding dependancies on particular tools, or techniques; instead to find the correct method for using what you've got when someone is trying to hurt you (or you're trying to hurt them..). 

He discusses rhythm as the deciding factor in a fight, rather than power, speed etc etc. These things are true with or without a sword in one's hand. 

Case in point; Kaith's sig - is it swordsman specific? IMHO, not.

Cheers

Bao.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 2, 2002)

I think Musashi plagiarized The Art of War when he wrote The Book of 5 Rings.

There are too many similarities to just be accident.

Both books can be applied to individuals as well as groups.


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## Baoquan (Aug 2, 2002)

> I think Musashi plagiarized The Art of War when he wrote The Book of 5 Rings.



It's polite to call it _pastiche_


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## Matt Stone (Aug 2, 2002)

> _Original question originally posted by Deathtrap101 _
> 
> *I went to a muay tai board and asked about how karate and muay tai differd and most of what i got was that i shouldn't spend ten years learning how to fight and go to muay tai and learn in 3 months. I dont blame them for defending there system but i was wondering what everyone here on karate thought about muay tai and karate? If anyone has any opinions on how muay tai is better than karate and how karate is beter than muay tai?? *



First of all, if it takes ten years to learn how to fight, there would have been a lot of dead karate men in the early days, wouldn't there have been? 

I remember a story of one of our school's junior students, who had been with the school for only a matter of weeks...  He was in the parking lot of a minimart, and a drunk accosted him.  The student managed to pull off a pretty fair block-punch-kick combo to incapacitate the attacker...  No worries.  

Now, were that same student to be faced with a better trained attacker, or with soldiers on the battlefield, perhaps he would have faired less well...  But that wasn't the case at that point in time.

I guess the thing to ask yourself, is who are you getting the answers to the questions from?  I would expect that a Muay Thai boxer would fancy Muay Thai moreso than Karate, and would therefore be inclined to make more favorable comments about Muay Thai when asked.  Likewise with the Karate student.

Perhaps looking into both on your own would answer the questions you have...


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## D.Cobb (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



You would also need to ask, under what "rules" would these comments be true? Muay Thai is a sport. It is derived from a War Art, the name of which escapes me at the moment, but it is a sport, and as such has rules. Real life combat has no rules. 

In the '70's (I think), there were competitions held in Thailand between Muay Thai guys and Karate "masters", and also, Kung Fu "masters". They were fought according to Muay Thai rules, and guess who won.....

Muay Thai used to incorporate ground fighting as well as stand up grappling, but this was dropped after a competition between Muay Thai and Judoka. The MT guys did what they were trained to do and went to ground, then found that this was where the judoka were at home. It was the only time that every fight on the card, between MT and some other style, was lost by the MT guys.

Above all else though I think it was nailed when comment was made of "The practitioner". This is what will decide the fight!

Just my 0.02 worth.($AU)
So it is only worth 0.01 in the US.
--Dave:asian:


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## KennethKu (Aug 10, 2002)

No one who is just 3 months into MT or any MA, can realisticly expect to defeat a 10 yr veteren in KT or any MA.  The only possibility is IronHand(aka IronPalm or IronFist). Even then, it would still be a 10 to 1 odd in favour of the vet, if the newbie hides his skills carefully and catches the vet off guard.  There is a premium in experience as reflected in superior reflexes and profficiency of techniques. 

Every MA has is strength and weakness. None is an end-all be-all MA in itself.


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## MartialArtist (Aug 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Deathtrap101 _
> 
> *YEa that was basicly my question(Why study something els if muay thai beats kung fu or karate regularaly?). I do my best to stay conditioned, i know that im no way near the condition of the average muay thai fighter but im working on that. I train under karate, im looking for the skill i geuss not necisarilly the style that i could be able to defend myself on the street and in the ring. I geuss all i can do is try differant things, condition myself more and keep in mind its not necisarily the style but hte individual and level of skill. *


It's not as easy as that.  It's not a battle between styles, but between people.

The best fighter I've seen in my life was what...  A karate and aikido expert.  He did beat all fighters, regardless of style.

Well, I say you stick with karate.  Unless you're training in a McDojo.  If your instructor teaches a lot of full-contact sparring or any other real-life situation training, then stick with him.  Remember, it's not so much the style that's important, but the instructor.  If you have a lousy instructor, you're not going to be succesful period.  Not only that, you get what you put into it.


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 5, 2002)

I always tell my students you will fight the way you train. 

If you train with zero amount of realism.........don't expect to have a "good time" in a life protection situation.

Basically the art you studying is irrelevant if you train realistically.


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## J-kid (Sep 16, 2002)

Its alot to do with the art you studie.  I have heard of TKD people in it for 7 years and getting there butts handed to them by someone taking MT for a month.   Lets just admit that some fighting styles work against others weaknesses there for all arts have there strong points.  Judos strongpoint would be grappling/Throws/Submissions/.  Weaknesses Kicking punching (striking)  its just how arts are made and for what time period all arts have strong and weak points.  Some arts are stronger then others in some areas and there for can beat that other art.


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 16, 2002)

Judo Kid, 

I had a BJJ guy say the same thing to me............then we went at it and I handed him his ***.
I knew what his art was capable of but he didn't know what my art was capable of. It's not the art but knowing how to use it's advantages and disadvantages. 
There is no superior art........only superior minds/ skill levels.

"Know yourself and know your opponent and you will be victorious"

Sun Tzu: The Art of War


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## J-kid (Sep 16, 2002)

Thats were my cross training would come in hande   

MEI YAOCHEN
Since you adapt and adjust appropriately in the face of the enemy, how could you say what you are going to do beforhand?

Attack when they are unprepared, make your move when they do not expect it.

The Art Of War
Sun Tzu
Translated by Thomas Cleary


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *
> Thats were my cross training would come in hande  *



I didn't need to cross train. I just used his own "weapon" against him.......which is what any martial art should be teaching.




> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *Since you adapt and adjust appropriately in the face of the enemy, how could you say what you are going to do beforhand?
> *



You can't say.........and if you try to say I will do this or that most of the time you will lose. You adapt to the situation at hand.


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## MartialArtist (Sep 18, 2002)

Using their own weapon against them is in almost all arts, even arts where you're trying to overpower the enemy such as muay thai.

It is by far one of the most effective principles you can do.  If you can execute something like that, you would become a great (insert wrestler, tai ji practitioner, TKD practitioner, muay thai boxer, etc.)


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *Using their own weapon against them is in almost all arts, even arts where you're trying to overpower the enemy such as muay thai.
> 
> It is by far one of the most effective principles you can do.  If you can execute something like that, you would become a great (insert wrestler, tai ji practitioner, TKD practitioner, muay thai boxer, etc.) *




But I am wonder if someone always relies on "over powering" their opponent what happens they run into  someone that is bigger and stronger.
How do they "over power" them?


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