# Keysi Fighting Method/Defence Lab



## Serpent Raptor (Jul 3, 2016)

I think DL (formerly KFM) is pretty awesome. But what do you all think of the system, and how would you say it measures up against other arts? Is anybody else here a DL student?


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## Paul_D (Jul 3, 2016)

I experienced it for an hour at a seminar, I didn’t see anything in particular that caught my interest, certainly not for the prices they wanted to charge.  £15 per hour if memory serves in an area where most classes are £5 at most for 1.5 hours.  I got the impression it was stuff you can find in other system put into packaging and sold at an inflated price.

As for measuring up to other arts, in what respect?  What criteria are you using to judge?


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## Serpent Raptor (Jul 3, 2016)

Only £5 an hour roughly. 

And any criteria that you want.

I find it cool that all the instructors have to train with the founder Andy Norman. Means you don't get watered down interpretations of the system at any class.


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## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2016)

Serpent Raptor said:


> Only £5 an hour roughly.
> 
> And any criteria that you want.
> 
> I find it cool that all the instructors have to train with the founder Andy Norman. Means you don't get watered down interpretations of the system at any class.



unless of course they are taught watered down techniques........


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## Serpent Raptor (Jul 3, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> unless of course they are taught watered down techniques........



Why would they be? Andy Norman has nothing to gain by doing that.

What do you think of the style anyway? And what art do you do?


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## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2016)

Serpent Raptor said:


> Why would they be? Andy Norman has nothing to gain by doing that.
> 
> What do you think of the style anyway? And what art do you do?




I'm not saying he does teach a watered down system but the fact that instructors have to train with the 'founder' of a system isn't a guarantee that the system is sound. It actually means little other than perhaps he can charge them more, again not saying he does. I would look at other reasons to validate a system.

I train Wado Ryu, TSD and MMA. We had a Keysi team come and fight on one of our MMA fight nights, I'm afraid they weren't very good. It could have been just them but they were a bad advert for the style, all their kit had 'Keysi' written on it so not mistaking what they trained. Sadly they put up poor fights.


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## jks9199 (Jul 3, 2016)

Having the instructors train with the founder or head instructor isn't a *guarantee* of anything other than they spent time in his company.  What does that time consist of?  Are they one of dozens -- or is it weeks of one-on-one training?  Is the head instructor actually monitoring and correcting them, or are they merely present?

And, even putting all of that into the most favorable light, it doesn't guarantee that the instructor is a skilled instructor, or doesn't change and water things down themselves...


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## Chris Parker (Jul 4, 2016)

Serpent Raptor said:


> I think DL (formerly KFM) is pretty awesome. But what do you all think of the system, and how would you say it measures up against other arts? Is anybody else here a DL student?



I'm assuming you're either a relatively new recruit to the system, and are enamoured with what you've found, or you're an instructor looking to create positive buzz and love for your art in a form of free advertising… if the former, okay, but bear in mind that such rose-coloured glasses don't work for others… if the latter, not the greatest idea you could have… 

As far as your questions, I am rather underwhelmed by the system itself. We'll get to why as we go… 



Serpent Raptor said:


> And any criteria that you want.



Okay… let's look at credibility. There isn't any.

Look, Andy and Justo (creators of Keysi) talked a big game about "growing up on tough streets", and being incredibly good street fighters and martial artists… but with no actual backup to their claims at all. In reality, all that is certain about them is that they were a couple of stunt guys who came up with an approach that was stylistically differentiated enough from other systems that they could sell it to Hollywood films when they wanted something "unique"… that lead to work in film choreography and stunt work, most notably in the Christopher Nolan Batman trilogy (the advent of Keysi pretty much is the advent of the Batman films… the first came out in 2005, with Keysi making it's first public appearance in "making of" footage and it's own website in 2004…), Mission Impossible 3, and Jack Reacher. By about 2012, Justo and Andy had parted ways, with Justo continuing to promote a form of Keysi, and Andy coming up with his "Defence Lab" and "DNA" approaches.

His entire selling point, and marketing, is based in incredibly vague comments about his background (no site or source I've found even claim a single system or rank that he, or Justo, have ever held or trained… yet, for some bizarre reason, fans of his describe him as "a person who has an incredible heritage in the martial arts world"… uh, really? Not that I've ever come across… ), and the list of Hollywood stars that he's worked with. His promotional videos follow that pattern, either vague and ambiguous, with no real substance, or it's Liam Neeson, with little to no credibility himself in this regard, espousing the benefits of training in Andy's system.

Andy claims that DL (and DNA) are "scientifically based… reality based… based in experience and testing, not theories…" except, of course, that it's not reality based, it's largely not realistic in many ways (the new version of the Pensador, a double forearm/elbow cover to the head which is the trademark of Keysi, is used in a rather ineffective, ill-advised, and inefficient manner, constantly wrapping the hands around the practitioners head, taking time when it's not really there to be used, and more), and is entirely based in theories… mainly, it seems, on how to stand out stylistically rather than actually provide somewhat beneficial combative methods.

If you want, I can take apart the mechanical methods… or the business model… or anything else. But I feel this is enough. Really, what DL is good at is getting it's students to buy it's merchandise, and create the same type of "feel good" emotions that come from fast food… it's okay for a short moment, but not really nutritious… 



Serpent Raptor said:


> I find it cool that all the instructors have to train with the founder Andy Norman. Means you don't get watered down interpretations of the system at any class.



No, it doesn't mean anything of the kind… in fact, depending on how you get certified, it could mean exactly that. If the certification is based on a weekend workshop, for instance, that's still training "with the founder"… but hardly what many would consider anything particularly impressive. However, looking at their website, there's no mention of needing to train with Andy at all… nor, in fact, of any particular training required. They do seem to be targeting existing martial artists and instructors, and have a lot of highly impressive sounding, but completely meaningless rhetoric on the site about "becoming an instructor"… and a portal for you to apply. But no mention of what is actually involved… and, call me old fashioned, but I'd like to know that an instructor in a martial system has at least had a number of years training, and has been chosen from existing students, rather than "hey, you're in this area, and you teach TKD… do you want to add this to your resume?"



Serpent Raptor said:


> Why would they be? Andy Norman has nothing to gain by doing that.



He has plenty to gain from it… and there are any number of reasons for it… one is pure ego gratification (and bluntly, any advertising rhetoric that has to so constantly remind me that "there are no egos" tells me that there are some pretty serious egos involved… Andy at the core of it. He comes across as someone who wanted to be the action star, not the stunt guy, and is looking for a way to be the centre of attention…). Another is, simply, lining his coffers… as mentioned, the big thing that DL seems to excel at is ensuring that it's members buy it's merchandise. By adding instructors, it adds more to Andy's wallet… not uncommon. And by "watering down" the content, it makes it easier to certify more people faster… leading to more money and "fame" for Andy.

Honestly, this is just scratching the surface, but the point is that, no, it is not true that "Andy has nothing to gain by doing that".



Serpent Raptor said:


> What do you think of the style anyway?



I think it is a deeply flawed, style over substance, flashily marketed, baseless, unrealistic, inefficient, "look at me!", made-for-Hollywood, sad parody of actual martial arts, self defence systems, RBSD, and everything else it's pretending to be.



Serpent Raptor said:


> And what art do you do?



Look to my signature for some of my systems.


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## Tez3 (Jul 5, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> I think it is a deeply flawed, style over substance, flashily marketed, baseless, unrealistic, inefficient, "look at me!", made-for-Hollywood, sad parody of actual martial arts, self defence systems, RBSD, and everything else it's pretending to be.



I think you need to stop beating around the bush and say what you really mean!


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## Andy anorman (Jan 5, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> I'm assuming you're either a relatively new recruit to the system, and are enamoured with what you've found, or you're an instructor looking to create positive buzz and love for your art in a form of free advertising… if the former, okay, but bear in mind that such rose-coloured glasses don't work for others… if the latter, not the greatest idea you could have…
> 
> As far as your questions, I am rather underwhelmed by the system itself. We'll get to why as we go…
> 
> ...


Hey Chris .., thank you for your enlightening judgment of my life ... remind me again when we last met and trained ??? ..., you seem to be exactly what the arts are NOT about ... pre-judging aperson or thei way of life ..... that infact you know nothing about ... 
sad really ... I'm sure you'll get over yourself one day .. oh yeah and remind how many global brands you've built from scratch, how man police divisions you train, how many A list movi stats you train, was you an instructor under Dan Inosanto .. bob Breen .. started training BJJ before Europe even cottoned on to it in the early 90's ... trained with the Olympic judo squad? I could go on .. but you clearly know more about me and my life than me ... wow ... take care. chris ..


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## Dylan9d (Jan 6, 2017)

Andy anorman said:


> Hey Chris .., thank you for your enlightening judgment of my life ... remind me again when we last met and trained ??? ..., you seem to be exactly what the arts are NOT about ... pre-judging aperson or thei way of life ..... that infact you know nothing about ...
> sad really ... I'm sure you'll get over yourself one day .. oh yeah and remind how many global brands you've built from scratch, how man police divisions you train, how many A list movi stats you train, was you an instructor under Dan Inosanto .. bob Breen .. started training* BJJ before Europe even cottoned on to it in the early 90's* ... trained with the Olympic judo squad? I could go on .. but you clearly know more about me and my life than me ... wow ... take care. chris ..



I'm not judging your system or style but I don't see why you need to brag as much as you do in this post . 

What does we Europeans have to do with the post of Chris? You do know he is from Australia right? Also we did the same with Silat, in Europe....in Holland to be precise


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## Whit (Jan 6, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> I'm not judging your system or style but I don't see why you need to brag as much as you do in this post .
> 
> What does we Europeans have to do with the post of Chris? You do know he is from Australia right? Also we did the same with Silat, in Europe....in Holland to be precise



I hardly think he is bragging when someone just ripped apart his entire system and life based on very little evidence and hearsay.

When he is talking about Europe i think he means that he was training BJJ before it became big in Europe no referring to that other guy.

Congrats on the Silat btw it's something i've always wanted to try.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 6, 2017)

Andy anorman said:


> Hey Chris .., thank you for your enlightening judgment of my life ... remind me again when we last met and trained ??? ..., you seem to be exactly what the arts are NOT about ... pre-judging aperson or thei way of life ..... that infact you know nothing about ...
> sad really ... I'm sure you'll get over yourself one day .. oh yeah and remind how many global brands you've built from scratch, how man police divisions you train, how many A list movi stats you train, was you an instructor under Dan Inosanto .. bob Breen .. started training BJJ before Europe even cottoned on to it in the early 90's ... trained with the Olympic judo squad? I could go on .. but you clearly know more about me and my life than me ... wow ... take care. chris ..


Hi Andy,

I don't know anything thing about your system, would be interested in knowing more.  I've never heard of it, actually.  I don't know much about movie stars, I guess you've gotta hang out in Southern California if you want to rub shoulders with them.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 6, 2017)

I'm not going to make any comment on the quality of the Keysi Fighting Method or Defence Lab, since I've never experienced them in person. I've seen some promotional videos on YouTube. Based on those, it looks better than some things I've encountered, worse than others. However there can be a real difference between video and actual training, so I will reserve judgment until such time as I actually get a chance to work with an advanced practitioner of the art.



Andy anorman said:


> remind how many global brands you've built from scratch, how man police divisions you train, how many A list movi stats you train, was you an instructor under Dan Inosanto .. bob Breen .. started training BJJ before Europe even cottoned on to it in the early 90's ... trained with the Olympic judo squad?



I would be interested in hearing about your training background and how you applied it to the art you created. I don't really care about which movie stars you trained - not sure about how that is relevant to the quality of a martial art. Likewise, the "building a global brand" seems like it has more to do with your business and promotional savvy than your martial arts skills. I'm more interested in your training background.

Being an instructor under Dan Inosanto is certainly an accomplishment to be proud of. How long did you train JKD? You mention BJJ and Judo. Do you hold any ranks in those systems? Not to fixate on rank, but it can provide an indication of who (other than movie stars) will credibly vouch for your knowledge and skills. Have you trained in other systems as well?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 6, 2017)

Andy anorman said:


> oh yeah and remind how many global brands you've built from scratch,



Nothing to do with how effective a system is.



Andy anorman said:


> how man police divisions you train,



Nothing to do with how effective a system is.



Andy anorman said:


> how many A list movi stats you train,



Nothing to do with how effective a system is. In fact, Movie-Fu is pretty much the polar opposite of effective.



Andy anorman said:


> was you an instructor under Dan Inosanto



Was (sic) you? You have some documentation to support this?



Andy anorman said:


> .. bob Breen ..



What about him?



Andy anorman said:


> started training BJJ before Europe even cottoned on to it in the early 90's ...



As Chris pointed out, vague claims won't carry much weight. Trained with whom? To what rank?



Andy anorman said:


> trained with the Olympic judo squad?



Vague and meaningless. I've trained with Bob Bondurant, Skip Barber, and Frank Hawley. Got certificates (and an NHRA license), even. But that doesn't make me John Force or Doug Kallita or Antonio Garcia. I've trained at the Olympic Training Center, too, but that doesn't make me KIM Tae-Hun.

Responding to Chris' complaint about vague, non-specific training claims with more vague, non-specific claims isn't really going to do you much good.

Note that I know nothing of your system, so I have no opinion about its effectiveness. I'm merely pointing out that nothing you've said here is going to go very far towards convincing anyone that you're an expert at anything other than self-promotion.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 7, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Was (sic) you? You have some documentation to support this?


This page on the Inosanto Academy website would seem to indicate that Mr. Norman was an instructor in the Inosanto International Martial Art Instructors Association. I think there are different levels of instructor certification in Guro Dan's system, but I don't know which level Mr. Norman reached.



Dirty Dog said:


> What about him?



I believe Mr. Breen was Mr. Norman's instructor in JKD.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 7, 2017)

Tuff crowd,  tuff crowd.  Lol.  I actually find it funny and refreshing to chat with the caliber of martial artists here.  It's humorous to me to see people pop in and expect the members here to automatically bow down and give respect and admiration.   Respect on this sight needs to be earned, and BS will be called and flushed out every time.
Never trained in Keysi  or DL myself.  But would be interested in digging into it here on MT but I doubt Andy would be interested in doing that.  For myself I would be very interested in what the MT community would think about my system, just in terms if how to make it better or how my marketing is working or not.
Honest conversations need to start with honesty and a humble look at the subject.  when something is lacking people tend to inflate themselves to fill the gaps. Difficult to have constructive conversations with that as a starting point.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 7, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> For myself I would be very interested in what the MT community would think about my system, just in terms if how to make it better or how my marketing is working or not.


Is Kerboros combatives your system? If so, I'd be happy to provide any feedback I can. Do you have any info other than what's on the website and FB page?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 7, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> This page on the Inosanto Academy website would seem to indicate that Mr. Norman was an instructor in the Inosanto International Martial Art Instructors Association. I think there are different levels of instructor certification in Guro Dan's system, but I don't know which level Mr. Norman reached.
> 
> I believe Mr. Breen was Mr. Norman's instructor in JKD.



That commentary was as much about Mr Normans apparent poor grasp of English sentence structure and how it is used to convey information as anything.

I can't really tell anything by that page, except that eight years ago a web admin posted what seems likely to be nothing more than a press release. Which leaves it entirely in the 'vague and unhelpful claims' category. And that's ignoring how far removed from an effective MA system Movie-Fu in general, including the silliness in _Batman_, really is.


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## Tez3 (Jan 7, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> including the silliness in _Batman_, really is.



Not the Lego Batman though, that looks to be absolutely ace!


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## drop bear (Jan 7, 2017)

Whit said:


> I hardly think he is bragging when someone just ripped apart his entire system and life based on very little evidence and hearsay.
> 
> When he is talking about Europe i think he means that he was training BJJ before it became big in Europe no referring to that other guy.
> 
> Congrats on the Silat btw it's something i've always wanted to try.



And by a ninja no less. 

I haven't noticed the team of guys that generally chirp in about all styles being equal. And that if it makes you happy you should train it. 

I honestly don't understand the mentality of pile on the new guy. 

Maby it is just easier to go with the herd.


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## Tez3 (Jan 7, 2017)

All styles are equal, all practitioners not so much. People aren't piling on the 'new guy', a question was asked, answered and then discussed. There's no reason why it should be a luvvie fest...'oh I just luurve your style dahling', people speak as they find, some critical, some not. C'est la vie.


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## Tames D (Jan 7, 2017)

*


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 8, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Is Kerboros combatives your system? If so, I'd be happy to provide any feedback I can. Do you have any info other than what's on the website and FB page?


Thanks Tony I would appreciate it.  My post was not really soliciting, just pointing out that veils are usually hiding something.  But yeah I plan to post videos here for review when I can.  And the Web and Facebook pages are just first drafts I tried to do myself. I really need some professional marketing help there. My first draft is for the marketing company to get a visual more than anything else.
I must add that DL has some super marketing albeit super commercial which also gives it a Mc dojo feel. But I would guess it's very lucrative. From a marketing perspective it works, we are talking about the system.


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## jks9199 (Jan 8, 2017)

Gents, 
If hosin1600 wants a review of his system/site, that's absolutely great.  But kind of off topic here.  Perhaps starting a new thread to do that would be in order?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 8, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Gents,
> If hosin1600 wants a review of his system/site, that's absolutely great.  But kind of off topic here.  Perhaps starting a new thread to do that would be in order?


If Hoshin1600 wants to start a new thread, he can. Otherwise I'll just shoot him a PM when I get a chance.


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## Whit (Jan 9, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Tuff crowd,  tuff crowd.  Lol.  I actually find it funny and refreshing to chat with the caliber of martial artists here.  It's humorous to me to see people pop in and expect the members here to automatically bow down and give respect and admiration.   Respect on this sight needs to be earned, and BS will be called and flushed out every time.
> Never trained in Keysi  or DL myself.  But would be interested in digging into it here on MT but I doubt Andy would be interested in doing that.  For myself I would be very interested in what the MT community would think about my system, just in terms if how to make it better or how my marketing is working or not.
> Honest conversations need to start with honesty and a humble look at the subject.  when something is lacking people tend to inflate themselves to fill the gaps. Difficult to have constructive conversations with that as a starting point.




It's difficult to earn respect when those people who are supposed to give are working off of incorrect information and rumours.

Then go on to attack a guys grammar.


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## Whit (Jan 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> And by a ninja no less.
> 
> I haven't noticed the team of guys that generally chirp in about all styles being equal. And that if it makes you happy you should train it.
> 
> ...


I have noticed the pile on the new guy mentality.


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## Whit (Jan 9, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Thanks Tony I would appreciate it.  My post was not really soliciting, just pointing out that veils are usually hiding something.  But yeah I plan to post videos here for review when I can.  And the Web and Facebook pages are just first drafts I tried to do myself. I really need some professional marketing help there. My first draft is for the marketing company to get a visual more than anything else.
> I must add that DL has some super marketing albeit super commercial which also gives it a Mc dojo feel. But I would guess it's very lucrative. From a marketing perspective it works, we are talking about the system.



I've trained it a while, I don't like the marketing, it's using flash/putting green on everything to sell the "boring" aspects of the training.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 9, 2017)

Don't think I see much of a pile-on here. Chris was highly critical of the art in question (kind of violating the no art-bashing rule there), but no one else has criticized it and several of us have expressed curiosity to know more about the art and the training background of the founder.

A few of us have expressed the opinion that global branding and training of movie stars are irrelevant to the quality of a martial art, but that's not saying anything derogatory towards the art, its founder, or its practitioners.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 9, 2017)

Whit said:


> I've trained it a while, I don't like the marketing, it's using flash/putting green on everything to sell the "boring" aspects of the training.


So tell us about the training. The "boring" parts are what I'm actually interested in.


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## marques (Jan 9, 2017)

Whit said:


> Then go on to attack a guys grammar.


It does not favour anyone here (in an English forum), even for non-native...  As well as sort of angry comments.
PS: I was myself the cause of jokes because of my mistakes (thank you the ones who pointed them) and I am trying to improve.


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## Tez3 (Jan 9, 2017)

marques said:


> It does not favor anyone here (in an English forum), even for non-native...  As well as sort of angry comments.
> PS: I was myself motive of jokes because of my mistakes (thank you the ones who pointed them) and I am trying to improve.



Mmmmm. You are in the UK  so it's 'favour' not 'favor' and you weren't the 'motive' you were 'on the end of' or were 'the cause of' some jokes. . You will be writing perfect British English by the time I've finished lol! Actually your English is very good, you should be proud of yourself, however English I think is one of the worst languages to master because of it's idiosyncrasies.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 9, 2017)

marques said:


> It does not favor anyone here (in an English forum), even for non-native...  As well as sort of angry comments.
> PS: I was myself motive of jokes because of my mistakes (thank you the ones who pointed them) and I am trying to improve.


Remind me of where you are originally from? I know you're in the UK now. Most of the time your posts are clear enough that I have no problem understanding them even if there are minor grammatical issues. We get some native English speakers who write poorly enough that their postings are much harder to parse than your own. I think some people just grow up never writing much, so for them written communication is almost a foreign language.

I'm currently in the process of studying Portuguese and one of my goals for the year is to learn enough so that I could find a martial arts forum in that language and participate in the conversations there. If so, I expect to make plenty of embarrassing mistakes,


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 9, 2017)

Whit said:


> I have noticed the pile on the new guy mentality.


I won't say it never happens but most of the time the pile on is actually a result of one poster making claims that are inaccurate or deceptive.  Not saying this is the case here, but I think Tony is correct in that many of us are willing to explore the art and discuss it. So how about we do that? Personally I don't care out someone's background or who they taught I just want to dig into the concepts of the art.


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## marques (Jan 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm currently in the process of studying Portuguese and one of my goals for the year is to learn enough so that I could find a martial arts forum in that language and participate in the conversations there. If so, I expect to make plenty of embarrassing mistakes,


In fact, I am Portuguese, and I guess you are interested in Brazilian Portuguese because of BJJ, right?  All Portuguese is (now) written the same to your benefit, but the meaning of words, speaking, pronunciation and habits may differ significantly.

And I don't know any recommendable Portuguese forum... Let me know if you find one. Brazil should have some. If you are lucky, someone will make fun of your mistakes. Otherwise, you may not spot out them as fast...


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## Whit (Jan 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> So tell us about the training. The "boring" parts are what I'm actually interested in.




What would you like to know?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 9, 2017)

marques said:


> In fact, I am Portuguese, and I guess you are interested in Brazilian Portuguese because of BJJ, right?  All Portuguese is (now) written the same to your benefit, but the meaning of words, speaking, pronunciation and habits may differ significantly.
> 
> And I don't know any recommendable Portuguese forum... Let me know if you find one. Brazil should have some. If you are lucky, someone will make fun of your mistakes. Otherwise, you may not spot out them as fast...


Actually I started studying (Brazilian) Portuguese because I've started training Capoeira and part of that art is learning the songs. I figured if I'm going to learn the song lyrics I might as well learn to understand what they mean.

It's always been an embarrassment to me that despite 6 years of foreign language classes in high school and college I have no usable fluency in any language other than English. Unfortunately when I was in school I only studied enough to pass the tests, which is much less than the amount of practice necessary to gain functional ability in the language. I've tried to study on my own a few times over the years and never stuck with it.

This time when I started my Portuguese study I discovered Duolingo, which is free and which I find almost addictive. I've been practicing 30-60 minutes per day and have only missed 3 days out of the last two months. I'm pretty excited at the thought of finally being able to understand another language besides English. If I keep this up, I should be getting there.

Even though I'm studying Brazilian Portuguese, I do want to eventually understand how European Portuguese differs. Perhaps once I get further advanced I can message you and get some feedback.

(BTW - speaking of feedback, it's "spot them out", rather than "spot out them.")


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 9, 2017)

Whit said:


> What would you like to know?


What are the important principles of the art, in terms of tactics and body mechanics?

How is a typical class structured?

What are the primary methods of power generation?

How much sparring do you do? What sort of drills are commonly practiced?

If you have trained in other arts, what are the differences you see compared to those systems?

(Also, do you train in KFM or DL? I'm not sure how much difference there is between the two other than the branding.)


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## Whit (Jan 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> What are the important principles of the art, in terms of tactics and body mechanics?
> 
> How is a typical class structured?
> 
> ...




Tends to be in the format of 1 hour classes.
1st 10 minutes is on exercise/ movement mechanics
Then it will be grouped down into drills in 10 minute or so bursts
where its done on focus pads, then jacket work, then under pressure of a resisting opponent. 

Power is generated by loading through the hips, as best as i know to describe it.

Sparring is every sunday for a large portion of the lesson to give us chance to practice what we learned in a live situation.  Most common drills tend to be in a 2-1 person format or are what is called a 4 man box where 4 students surround you on the compass points.

I used to do a little kickboxing, i've also recently taken up a little Filipino boxing, you can see the JKD and FMA roots of the techniques when you dissemble them. 

The whole "shapeshifting" or "tactical hair washing", comes from turning a flinch reaction to an attack like SPEAR does.

Defence lab, KFM is different in that it relies on the "thinking man" stance and nothing else.


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## Whit (Jan 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> What are the important principles of the art, in terms of tactics and body mechanics?
> 
> How is a typical class structured?
> 
> ...




Oh and the kfm is from a movie/is movie fighting,KFM existed before the Nolan films and the KFM in batman is very different to KFM i've seen, same with the DL that is in the new Jack Reacher movies.


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## Whit (Jan 9, 2017)

> Look, Andy and Justo (creators of Keysi) talked a big game about "growing up on tough streets", and being incredibly good street fighters and martial artists… but with no actual backup to their claims at all. In reality, all that is certain about them is that they were a couple of stunt guys who came up with an approach that was stylistically differentiated enough from other systems that they could sell it to Hollywood films when they wanted something "unique"… that lead to work in film choreography and stunt work, most notably in the Christopher Nolan Batman trilogy (the advent of Keysi pretty much is the advent of the Batman films… the first came out in 2005, with Keysi making it's first public appearance in "making of" footage and it's own website in 2004…),


I don't even know where to begin with how incorrect this is.  KFM existed before 2004, it was picked by the producers and then watered down.


> Mission Impossible 3, and Jack Reacher. By about 2012, Justo and Andy had parted ways, with Justo continuing to promote a form of Keysi, and Andy coming up with his "Defence Lab" and "DNA" approaches.


Jack Reacher uses a watered down version of Defence Lab.




> the new version of the Pensador, a double forearm/elbow cover to the head which is the trademark of Keysi, is used in a rather ineffective, ill-advised, and inefficient manner, constantly wrapping the hands around the practitioners head, taking time when it's not really there to be used, and more), and is entirely based in theories… mainly, it seems, on how to stand out stylistically rather than actually provide somewhat beneficial combative methods.



This just confirmed for me that you know little if anything about the system or how its techniques are applied. 



> If you want, I can take apart the mechanical methods… or the business model… or anything else. But I feel this is enough. Really, what DL is good at is getting it's students to buy it's merchandise, and create the same type of "feel good" emotions that come from fast food… it's okay for a short moment, but not really nutritious…



Never once in 2 years have i been compelled to buy any merch.



> He has plenty to gain from it… and there are any number of reasons for it… one is pure ego gratification (and bluntly, any advertising rhetoric that has to so constantly remind me that "there are no egos" tells me that there are some pretty serious egos involved… Andy at the core of it. He comes across as someone who wanted to be the action star, not the stunt guy, and is looking for a way to be the centre of attention…). Another is, simply, lining his coffers… as mentioned, the big thing that DL seems to excel at is ensuring that it's members buy it's merchandise. By adding instructors, it adds more to Andy's wallet… not uncommon. And by "watering down" the content, it makes it easier to certify more people faster… leading to more money and "fame" for Andy.




It's clear you've never met the guy, he's not egotistic nor "craves attention".



> I think it is a deeply flawed, style over substance, flashily marketed, baseless, unrealistic, inefficient, "look at me!", made-for-Hollywood, sad parody of actual martial arts, self defence systems, RBSD, and everything else it's pretending to be.



Nobody has questioned these techniques when they were in JKD or Suntukan all that is different is the shapes.



> Look to my signature for some of my systems.




I could lay into you for studying Ninjutsu and about 3 different sword forms you'll never use but i wont because I like them.


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## Matt Bryers (Jul 6, 2017)

Hey all,

I thought I might add some insight to this thread, having trained with Andy Norman, the DL Crew and many of the DL practitioners around the world.  From a business, branding, etc - I have nothing to comment on.

But - in regards to Andy's talent / passion; all I can say is that Andy Norman is an innovator.  He is constantly thinking, questioning, and trying to improve "what he does".  Regardless if you like his system or not, I believe that there is something special and unique in the principles, mechanics, etc of Defence Lab and Keysi Fighting Method that Andy teaches.

Despite all the "showy" stuff that people associate Defence Lab and Keysi with, there is A LOT of focus on Core Body Mechanics and Footwork.  More so than I originally expected.  In fact working with Andy, Grek and Paul greatly helped my footwork and overall body movement tremendously.  It's hard to pick-up or see through their "marketing videos", but the top guys in Defence Lab can MOVE and FIGHT.  I have witnessed this myself.

Quick story: 

During a late night training session I had with Andy and Paul, Andy asked me to throw a cross.  Now, at this time, I have a Black Belt in Japanese Jujitsu and a Black Belt in BJJ.  I have fought MMA professionally, competed in Kyokushin, extensive boxing / kickboxing training, etc.  I thought I could throw a punch.

So - I threw a cross.  Andy says: "no no no no, that's all wrong, look at your feet".  In my mind, I was like "love this little UK guy telling me that I can't throw a punch".  But, I checked my ego and listened to what he had to say.  He proceeded to adjust my footwork very quickly and it made sense... I understand why what I was doing was wrong, and what he was doing was better.  What that small lesson ultimately did was open my eyes to see the beauty and importance of boxing footwork.  It was something that I always new was important, but it's like just glancing at a painting; compared to actually spending the time to understand the beauty of the painting.

I am no longer involved with Defence Lab, but still train with two Defence Lab Black Belts / Keysi Fighting Method Black Belts: John Leabo and Mike Simon.  But - in regards to Andy Norman as a person, the man does know his stuff, and I believe that he can help people be better martial artists.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 6, 2017)

Thanks for the insight Matt. Good to hear from an experienced person who has actually tried the art.

BTW - good to see you back. Belated congrats on earning your BJJ black belt.


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## Matt Bryers (Jul 6, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> BTW - good to see you back. Belated congrats on earning your BJJ black belt.



Thanks man! Good to be back


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 6, 2017)

*Glad to have you back Matt!*

While I am not a fan of Defense Lab or Keysi fighting methods for a lot of reasons.  Mostly that revolves around personality and or lack of skill or showiness.  I will say this for Andy's teacher Bob Breen.   I have respect for Bob Breen!  Two may people that I know are very fond of him!


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## Matt Bryers (Jul 7, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Glad to have you back Matt!*
> 
> While I am not a fan of Defense Lab or Keysi fighting methods for a lot of reasons.  Mostly that revolves around personality and or lack of skill or showiness.  I will say this for Andy's teacher Bob Breen.   I have respect for Bob Breen!  Two may people that I know are very fond of him!



Bob Breen is the real deal. I did a private with him a couple of years ago in NY in knife combat. He is on a different level of understanding and ability.


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## Matt Bryers (Jul 7, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> Not true! You can become an instructor through an online course.
> 
> I do think that the DL system can be a good system but it pretends to do something unique and new which is not the case.



FYI - you cannot become an instructor from an online course. There is a process that you have to go through. Instructors use online resources, but ultimately they have to be certified in person... Unless that's been changed.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 7, 2017)

*It is crap in my opinion to promote anyone from online training*.  Online training can be a great supplement for someone regularly training with an instructor but it is a poor replacement as your overall instruction method.  Two many small details are missed unless the person designing it is very, very, very careful.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 8, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *It is crap in my opinion to promote anyone from online training*.  Online training can be a great supplement for someone regularly training with an instructor but it is a poor replacement as your overall instruction method.  Two many small details are missed unless the person designing it is very, very, very careful.


It is irrelevant how careful the designer may be.  It puts the onus on the student to catch his own errors, which is extremely unlikely and not a good teaching model.


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## Martial D (Jul 8, 2017)

I had actually never heard of this, so I just spent the last few hours researching it and watching some technique breakdowns and promotional material.

On it's face it looks impractical and broken. If my opponent hands are glued to his forehead, I know where his strikes are coming from. If he is taught to 'load' them in an exaggerated manner, I know when they are coming.  Perfect for movie choreography I would imagine, to make sure nobody got hurt.

However I reserve final judgement until I get to spar a trained keysi guy.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> It is irrelevant how careful the designer may be.  It puts the onus on the student to catch his own errors, which is extremely unlikely and not a good teaching model.



*I totally agree with that.*  Even if the designer is incredibly careful and includes the tiny details often missed on video training the onus is absolutely 100% on the student catching their errors and correcting them.  Which we both know is very hard to do without a qualified instructor there to constantly correct an error before it becomes a hard to correct bad habit!


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## Paul_D (Jul 9, 2017)

I recently did some Defence Lab on a seminar, it's the second time I've had a go at it.  It was pretty much the same as the first time, the focus was on being attacked by multiple assailants, his time in a nightclub.  The instructor erroneously suggested that if you are attacked it will most likely involve more than one attacker.  Clearly he hasn't done his research as the crime statiscts of England/Wales do not show his to be the case, 60-70% of all violent crimes involves one attacker (depending in which years statistics you are looking at.) So statistically the opposite is true, you are less likely to be attacked by more than one person. 

Domestic violence for example has one attacker in over 90% of situations but then I doubt victims of domestic abuse (who need SD skills of recognising the warning signs of a potentially abusive relationship) fit the target market for DL.  Whilst I have no specific issue with what they teach, for fighting, that is what it is for, men fighting in pubs/clubs/the street.  It isn't for the wider arena of SD, so I I think it would be more accurate if they called themselves Pub Fight Lab rather than Defence Lab.  As Matt says, there is a lot of focus on footwork and body mechanics; which isn't much use to your Gran if she's worried about having her handbag stolen.


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## Matt Bryers (Aug 17, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *It is crap in my opinion to promote anyone from online training*.



This I wholeheartedly agree with.  You can LEARN a lot from online training - but promotion.... NO WAY.


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## veritasAequitas (May 28, 2018)

As an ex KFM/Defence lab guy avoid it.


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## jks9199 (May 28, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> As an ex KFM/Defence lab guy avoid it.


Perhaps you can tell us why you feel this way?


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## veritasAequitas (May 29, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> Perhaps you can tell us why you feel this way?


I studied the system KFM/Defence Lab for around 3 and a half years, there so substance to it, the sparring is lacking, its just strings of long drills and scenario training.

Having met Matt Bryar's Ii can say with certainty that his opinion has changed.


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## jks9199 (May 30, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> I studied the system KFM/Defence Lab for around 3 and a half years, there so substance to it, the sparring is lacking, its just strings of long drills and scenario training.
> 
> Having met Matt Bryar's Ii can say with certainty that his opinion has changed.


What do you mean by "no substance"?  What do you feel is so inadequate in the scenario training?  MartialTalk isn't twitter... you're allowed to use as many words as you need...


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 1, 2018)

Malos1979 said:


> If you have the time, have a look at the crap they are trying to sell on their YT channel. I'm still getting emails from them telling me I can become an instructor through an online course WITHOUT any face to face instruction.
> 
> The last online course I tried was from a well known Pekiti organisation that promises you sublime support but doesn't deliver on their promises, and even if they will then it won't be the same as training face to face.
> 
> So online training for me is the biggest problem at the moment in any martial art, people think that online training ALONE is enough.




You do still have to do the instructor weekends in order to qualify as far as i know.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 1, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> What do you mean by "no substance"?  What do you feel is so inadequate in the scenario training?  MartialTalk isn't twitter... you're allowed to use as many words as you need...




No substance 

The core part of the system is the use of the shapes or using the terminology of the system, "shape shifting" the problem with this is that us causes what ill refer to as "forcing", Ie forcing a technique to work because it uses the shapes.

Past the shape-shifting it takes elements from other arts and teaches them at a very surface level. 


Scenario training. 

I don't agree with the idea of scenario training, its develops a very fixed response to what is a dynamic situation, person does X I do Y and Z happens.  This doesn't prepare you for when you do Y and Z doesn't happen. 


Drilling


The majority of training is long format strings of drills, my issue with this is the lack of aliveness in the drills themselves and the assumptions the drills make.


Techniques and methodology 

The ground game is very very thin BJJ with skin tears, at no point in years of training was i taught how to bridge, do basic elbow escapes, sweeps  or shrimp correctly, all of the positions of bjj are covered but the escapes are reinforced with dirty fighting even in a non dominant position. 

Multiple techniques rely on the pain response, this is unreliable and even worse some actually require you to have one of the defense lab rings in order to actually work.

Overcomplicated techniques that could be simpler 

Examples of this are the responses to grabs, pushes against the wall, escapes from the rear chokes.  


Techniques that are just flat out useless, punching the feet, punching behind your own head, punching over a persons head to hit their chest.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 1, 2018)

There is also now a focus more on selling a person a more expensive subscription and then having that person at some point become an instructor.

Its a giant ponzi scheme, if you look at the warrior defence lab system its just ATA krava maga with the defense lab shapes thrown in and is just a stepping stone to get to have a DNA subscription as well.

Just look at the jewelry they are selling, i'm not sure about UK weapon laws but im pretty sure that you are not allowed to hit someone with a necklace shaped like a hammer.


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## Martial D (Jun 1, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> punching over a persons head to hit their chest.



Saaaaaaay what?

Are you fighting guys doing hand stands?


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 1, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Scenario training.
> 
> I don't agree with the idea of scenario training, its develops a very fixed response to what is a dynamic situation, person does X I do Y and Z happens. This doesn't prepare you for when you do Y and Z doesn't happen.



i just wanted to clarify that the use of the term Scenario training as described above may be the way defense labs uses the term but is not the industry standard.
the common nomenclature for scenario training is creating a "scene"  as in... the assailant asks you for your wallet and is holding a knife.....ready set go....defend yourself,   by any means possible.  its kind of a scenario based sparring not a prearranged drill.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 2, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i just wanted to clarify that the use of the term Scenario training as described above may be the way defense labs uses the term but is not the industry standard.
> the common nomenclature for scenario training is creating a "scene"  as in... the assailant asks you for your wallet and is holding a knife.....ready set go....defend yourself,   by any means possible.  its kind of a scenario based sparring not a prearranged drill.




Example i can give is.

You are seated, a person attacks you, you respond i x technique, or a person grabs you, there is very little in the way of free form sparring in the war other arts I have done would describe it.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 2, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Saaaaaaay what?
> 
> Are you fighting guys doing hand stands?



The idea is that you are standing behind a person punching over their shoulder to fight another person, you punch the face chest over their shoulder with a "scorpion punch", I still haven't found that term being used in any other art.


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## Martial D (Jun 2, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> The idea is that you are standing behind a person punching over their shoulder to fight another person, you punch the face chest over their shoulder with a "scorpion punch", I still haven't found that term being used in any other art.


Sounds like some serious movie-fu


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 2, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Sounds like some serious movie-fu




You dont know the half of it dude. 

Questionable knife defenses






Stick defense






the drill they use to make you think your existing training wont work on the streets 






Youll notice that there is no liveness to any of these 











How to use the frame to attack


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## Martial D (Jun 2, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You dont know the half of it dude.
> 
> Questionable knife defenses
> 
> ...



Well, this seems like a good way to get stabbed.

What I'd really like to see is footage of someone doing keysi/dl in an actual fight or even a sport fight, for better or worse. Even better would be to spar with one of their guys, but I've never had the opportunity.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 2, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Example i can give is.
> 
> You are seated, a person attacks you, you respond i x technique, or a person grabs you, there is very little in the way of free form sparring in the war other arts I have done would describe it.



like i said that may be the DL terminology.  to predetermine an attack and the response is counter productive to scenario training.  scenario training is primarily a method to test how the student will respond in a given situation.  it also acts as inoculation to violence and abusive language.  to use scenario training properly the concept is to drill the desirable traits and actions under predetermined controlled atmosphere first,   then at a later point, put the student in a scenario and see what he responds with naturally.  was he able to apply what was taught?  

while this clip is not self defense it shows how scenario based training is used within an industry like law enforcement.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 2, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You dont know the half of it dude.
> 
> Questionable knife defenses





veritasAequitas said:


> Stick defense





veritasAequitas said:


> the drill they use to make you think your existing training wont work on the streets





veritasAequitas said:


> Youll notice that there is no liveness to any of these



i am not a fan of the DL methods myself but your comments here sound more like you have an ax to grind then a subjective disagreement with their methods.
you posted a few instructional clips designed for marketing. your comments do not match the clips posted as far as i can tell.   maybe i am missing something.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 3, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i am not a fan of the DL methods myself but your comments here sound more like you have an ax to grind then a subjective disagreement with their methods.
> you posted a few instructional clips designed for marketing. your comments do not match the clips posted as far as i can tell.   maybe i am missing something.




Its reiterating my point, its all marketing, find me 1 video of defence lab being used on a non compliant partner.

1. The knife just flies out of the guys hand
2. Stick defence, you're transferring all of the force of that stick into your neck and that's not even addressing if the person attacking has a machete.
3. The "4 man box" core nucleus of their training methods, out a person at each.point of a compass and they attack the person in the middle.


No what's malicious about that you may say? You are not allowed to try to fight your way out the first time you do it, you are told you can defend however you like. The problem with this is that its setting you up to fail unless you use the defence lab covers.


Those are not marketing clips its how you are trained, I never ever in years applied anything on a resisting partner. 

I've met Andy several times at seminars and the defence lab summer camps, hesa decent guy.

My issue is with the training


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## drop bear (Jun 3, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i am not a fan of the DL methods myself but your comments here sound more like you have an ax to grind then a subjective disagreement with their methods.
> you posted a few instructional clips designed for marketing. your comments do not match the clips posted as far as i can tell.   maybe i am missing something.



You are missing something.


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## drop bear (Jun 3, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You dont know the half of it dude.
> 
> Questionable knife defenses
> 
> ...



That is very tied up with its own concepts. A lot of that would be cool if it worked. I can see why they don't spar. The first person to figure out straight punches would own that gym.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> That is very tied up with its own concepts. A lot of that would be cool if it worked. I can see why they don't spar. The first person to figure out straight punches would own that gym.



The style itself is very static, you're trained to keep that cover up and in a semi horse stance all the time.

Having to "load" the covers slows down movement and it doesn't take a genius long to figure out.

1. They specialise is super close quarters there is no bridging to gauge range

2. He's going to cover if I hit him so I'll fake to the body

3. What's stopping me trying up or even grabbing his arms

4. What's worse is it assume your opponent can't fight and when it does make assumptions like you get pulled to the ground by a bjj player the solution is dirty fighting.

Ie grabbing their skin or face, punching their hands when they post.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 4, 2018)

Malos1979 said:


> I don't understand why systems like these overcomplicate things, just teach people simply to punch and protect their heads and your on a right track I think.
> 
> I've done quite a bit of Kali the last couple of years and they do the same, overcomplicating things with a 1001 drills, maybe the drills will develop some attributes but still stickfighting on the street won't be like those drills, it will be "smack smack" and one will be still standing.
> 
> my 2 cents



I was taught defence labs stick system, it relies heavily on the covers and punching with the points of the stick.

It seemed to keep jumping from stick to I have a machete, which confused things because punching with a stick isn't efficient and neither is coving with a blade


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## drop bear (Jun 4, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> The style itself is very static, you're trained to keep that cover up and in a semi horse stance all the time.
> 
> Having to "load" the covers slows down movement and it doesn't take a genius long to figure out.
> 
> ...



They do realise that already happens in BJJ don't they. Ho noes someone scratched, pinched, pulled hair, eye poked or dropped a knee in my groin.

That is an average roll.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> They do realise that already happens in BJJ don't they. Ho noes someone scratched, pinched, pulled hair, eye poked or dropped a knee in my groin.
> 
> That is an average roll.


Andy is a purple belt under Rigan.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 5, 2018)

Malos1979 said:


> I always think its funny that people train with machetes, especially in the western world. They are better of training with an umbrella? Or a crowbar?



A sifu I know does exactly that, whatever you have to defend with.

Anyway I could go into the kneeling, sitting and supine mechanics but I don't think anyone is interested


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## jobo (Jun 6, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> No substance
> 
> The core part of the system is the use of the shapes or using the terminology of the system, "shape shifting" the problem with this is that us causes what ill refer to as "forcing", Ie forcing a technique to work because it uses the shapes.
> 
> ...


Those are a fair assessment, but the bulk of those could be applied as fair points to an awful lot of ma training,


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## jobo (Jun 6, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> The style itself is very static, you're trained to keep that cover up and in a semi horse stance all the time.
> 
> Having to "load" the covers slows down movement and it doesn't take a genius long to figure out.
> 
> ...


If they are training for defence, there's a very good chance your attacker has only rudimentary fighting skills, they may be very good at what they know, they will naturally fight to their strengths,

They really shouldn't have time to figure you out,not unless they come back next week and try it ag ain, thing should be over in 30 seconds or so, if you have them in a chock hold it smashed them in the face with an elbow, there should be no way back for them, no time to learn

 , in defence, there really is only close quarter, if they are out of range, they pose no threat,, you need less how to close distance and more how to maintain it, whenOr if you cant, then a fight happens.

The term dirty fighting only applies to an environment where there are rules or or a culture of fighting, resting a vicious attack is not one of those things, , " dirty" fighting is very very effective if it's dirty enough, but if the only thing you have open to you is trying to pull their ear off, then go with that


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> If they are training for defence, there's a very good chance your attacker has only rudimentary fighting skills, they may be very good at what they know, they will naturally fight to their strengths,
> 
> They really shouldn't have time to figure you out,not unless they come back next week and try it again, thing should be over in 30 seconds or so, if you have them in a chock hold it smashed them in the face with an elbow, there should be no way back for them, no time to learn
> 
> ...



When im talking about dirty fighting im not talking about from a rule set up culture, If i try to tear a guys face from a bad position, physiologically the person will immediately do what you did back. Watch the defense lab ground fighting videos, you can do everything they are doing without resorting to using dirty tactics.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 6, 2018)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1455175637924108
			




Its becoming the same level as the systems drills we make fun of.


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## jobo (Jun 6, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> When im talking about dirty fighting im not talking about from a rule set up culture, If i try to tear a guys face from a bad position, physiologically the person will immediately do what you did back. Watch the defense lab ground fighting videos, you can do everything they are doing without resorting to using dirty tactics.


well only if they are in a,similar bad position. Other wise their hands won't be in the right position to tear your face off,.

if some one is attacking you there is not such thing as dirty tatics, only things that work and those that may not, anything that inflicts physical harm is good, particularly if you are losing and if your going to get beaten up anyway, what's to lose and lots to gain, if they move their hand to counter what your doing, then they are stopping doing what they were doing, ans id you go home with his ear in your pocket you at least have,a keep sake
physiologicaly, once your attacker realises that win or lose he is getting badly damaged, they tend to lose interest. Quickly ever tried wrestling. An angry cat,


----------



## drop bear (Jun 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> If they are training for defence, there's a very good chance your attacker has only rudimentary fighting skills, they may be very good at what they know, they will naturally fight to their strengths,
> 
> They really shouldn't have time to figure you out,not unless they come back next week and try it ag ain, thing should be over in 30 seconds or so, if you have them in a chock hold it smashed them in the face with an elbow, there should be no way back for them, no time to learn
> 
> ...



If I train to prevent a quality fighter at every range I can. That should alow me to deal with a crap fighter who only has one range.

And if god forbid I find myself in some sort of akward position I am more likely to be able to extradite myself.

Sometimes there are truths that dont make effective training tools. So yes I probably will face a guy with limited skill set. But I believe I will face a guy with an enhanced skill set. I am probably better off.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> well only if they are in a,similar bad position. Other wise their hands won't be in the right position to tear your face off,.
> 
> if some one is attacking you there is not such thing as dirty tatics, only things that work and those that may not, anything that inflicts physical harm is good, particularly if you are losing and if your going to get beaten up anyway, what's to lose and lots to gain, if they move their hand to counter what your doing, then they are stopping doing what they were doing, ans id you go home with his ear in your pocket you at least have,a keep sake
> physiologicaly, once your attacker realises that win or lose he is getting badly damaged, they tend to lose interest. Quickly ever tried wrestling. An angry cat,



Dirty tactics are a red herring. So say for example I spend my time learning the perfect eye gouge.





And then had a gouge off with any decent boxer. I would probably get out gouged. This is because he will position better to strike rather than worry about. (Honestly I don't even know what the super secret is to eye gouging I just hit people in the eye with my fingers)

So here for example. Nobody has really been taught anything.


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## jobo (Jun 6, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Dirty tactics are a red herring. So say for example I spend my time learning the perfect eye gouge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes ok, but what if your not fighting boxer,


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## jobo (Jun 6, 2018)

drop bear said:


> If I train to prevent a quality fighter at every range I can. That should alow me to deal with a crap fighter who only has one range.
> 
> And if god forbid I find myself in some sort of akward position I am more likely to be able to extradite myself.
> 
> Sometimes there are truths that dont make effective training tools. So yes I probably will face a guy with limited skill set. But I believe I will face a guy with an enhanced skill set. I am probably better off.


But your doing actual real fighting, the vast majority of ma Are not, I'm not arguing d/l is great, it's just no worse than most other things, And perhaps better than quite a few,


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## drop bear (Jun 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes ok, but what if your not fighting boxer,



Might work on a baby. 

The question isn't whether an eyegouge will or wont work on who. The question is why are you bloody paying money to learn eye gouge. You could come up with that one yourself.

Learn escapes and just add your own eye gouges for free.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> But your doing actual real fighting, the vast majority of ma Are not, I'm not arguing d/l is great, it's just no worse than most other things, And perhaps better than quite a few,



Bang for buck. As a consumer we should be picky about what we recieve in training. But to make good decisions we need to be properly informed.


----------



## jobo (Jun 6, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Might work on a baby.
> 
> The question isn't whether an eyegouge will or wont work on who. The question is why are you bloody paying money to learn eye gouge. You could come up with that one yourself.
> 
> Learn escapes and just add your own eye gouges for free.


You could teach yourself to punch/ kick and head but lots of people do ,others pay money to have people tell them how to punch, why are you singling out eye gouges, ? Not that I said anything about eye gouges, you just made that up as a point to Rgue against


----------



## drop bear (Jun 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> You could teach yourself to punch/ kick and head but lots of people do ,others pay money to have people tell them how to punch



If I can punch. About ten seconds of instruction will teach me to eyegouge. If I can eyegouge then about ten years of quality instuction will teach me to punch.


----------



## jobo (Jun 6, 2018)

drop bear said:


> If I can punch. About ten seconds of instruction will teach me to eyegouge. If I can eyegouge then about ten years of quality instuction will teach me to punch.


I didn't say anything about eye gouges, your ranting on about a point I didn't make.

I Poked a guy in both eyes who was trying to rob me at Knife point ,then I wondered off whilst he lay on the ground screaming, best knife disarm I've ever seen.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> I didn't say anything about eye gouges, your ranting on about a point I didn't make.
> 
> I Poked a guy in both eyes who was trying to rob me at Knife point ,then I wondered off whilst he lay on the ground screaming, best knife disarm I've ever seen.



Ok. then you response isn't aplicable to the comment you responded to.

And It doesn't have to be eye gouges it is concept.

So defence lab practicing ground and pound.





And again they are wasting their time that could be spent learning to get in to  mount. Or even getting out of mount.

A mate of mine kicked a guy in the head while we were fighting a pair of sissors off him. My mate had not done a day of training.


----------



## jobo (Jun 6, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Ok. then you response isn't aplicable to the comment you responded to.
> 
> And It doesn't have to be eye gouges it is concept.
> 
> ...


But DL,is for people who can't fight, 10 years to learn to punch properly or a few weeks to leArn to fight most people most of the time, only one makes sense as a cost benefit analysis


----------



## drop bear (Jun 6, 2018)

jobo said:


> But DL,is for people who can't fight, 10 years to learn to punch properly or a few weeks to leArn to fight most people most of the time, only one makes sense as a cost benefit analysis



How do they know they can fight most people most of the time in a few weeks?

That sounds like a meaningless claim.

Eg. Like on food labels.

Six Meaningless Claims on Food Labels


----------



## jobo (Jun 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> How do they know they can fight most people most of the time in a few weeks?
> 
> That sounds like a meaningless claim.
> 
> ...


It's no more meaningless than your claim you train for " quality fighters"


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 7, 2018)

In the first 6 weeks of defence lab you learn the following.

The most basic frame
A few combinations
The movement drag step, 90/180 turn's
Getting off the ground covered
Fighting on a wall

Because it's a fixed curriculum you dont get to learn mount escapes, grab/push defense's till later.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 7, 2018)

Malos1979 said:


> I think they are trying to be the next hype like Krav Maga was early 2000.
> 
> Trying to expand as big as possible as soon as possible and make a ton of money whilst doing it.



This man wins the game.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> It's no more meaningless than your claim you train for " quality fighters"


.

Ok. we will put an actual time line on it. 

For us we can put in a person off the street and throw him in a full contact fight against another first time fighter in about 12 weeks.

But it will generally take five to ten years to be a decent pro fighter or win a belt.

So defence cab can do precisely what by when?


----------



## jobo (Jun 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> .
> 
> Ok. we will put an actual time line on it.
> 
> ...


Well that's meaningless as well, I can put someone in a full contact fight with another beginners in half an hour,


----------



## drop bear (Jun 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well that's meaningless as well, I can put someone in a full contact fight with another beginners in half an hour,



Have you?


----------



## jobo (Jun 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Have you?


Yes


----------



## drop bear (Jun 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes


video or it didnt happen.


----------



## jobo (Jun 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> video or it didnt happen.


They won't let you video at primary schools,


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> .
> 
> Ok. we will put an actual time line on it.
> 
> ...



To keep it on topic good question.

The white belt grading that is 12 Weeks in you dont really pressure test anything beyond being hit with pads. 

You then have to show your ability on pads, then being hit with pads.

At no point are you really fighting a resisting opponent.

The grading covers getting up while hit, demonstrating fighting on a wall while being hit with pads and bring able to show a few pad drills.


----------



## jobo (Jun 7, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> To keep it on topic good question.
> 
> The white belt grading that is 12 Weeks in you dont really pressure test anything beyond being hit with pads.
> 
> ...


But I'm make the same point I made earlier, that is equally true of many tma,


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> But I'm make the same point I made earlier, that is equally true of many tma,




But thats not how they sell it to you, i dont know how big it is in the UK or Spain but it sells itself as a new art.


----------



## jobo (Jun 7, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> But thats not how they sell it to you, i dont know how big it is in the UK or Spain but it sells itself as a new art.


It maybe a new art,, but it has the same problem as all the old arts, you can't actually Poke people in the eyeFor real, 
It's scenario based, anything scenario based already has the winner selected.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> But I'm make the same point I made earlier, that is equally true of many tma,



Which is nice. But just because others have the same method doesn't make that method any good.


----------



## jobo (Jun 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Which is nice. But just because others have the same method doesn't make that method any good.


Well no it's as good or bad as very nearly everything else


----------



## drop bear (Jun 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well no it's as good or bad as very nearly everything else



Even if nearly everything is bad. That still doesn't validate the process

Nearly everyone is fat. That doesn't make you skinny.


----------



## jobo (Jun 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Even if nearly everything is bad. That still doesn't validate the process
> 
> Nearly everyone is fat. That doesn't make you skinny.


But I am skinny, ? 

The whole ma world is packed full of untested systems, you seem to be singling this one out in particular,, 

No one is going to progress through that and be an mma, star, but that doesn't make it bad, it just makes it unproven


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> But I am skinny, ?
> 
> The whole ma world is packed full of untested systems, you seem to be singling this one out in particular,,
> 
> No one is going to progress through that and be an mma, star, but that doesn't make it bad, it just makes it unproven



You know defence lab used to sell itself as an MMA programme right? and it still says it has anti BJJ tactics?


----------



## jobo (Jun 7, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You know defence lab used to sell itself as an MMA programme right? and it still says it has anti BJJ tactics?


Well it isn't now, and it does have anti bBj, tatics


----------



## drop bear (Jun 7, 2018)

jobo said:


> But I am skinny, ?
> 
> The whole ma world is packed full of untested systems, you seem to be singling this one out in particular,,
> 
> No one is going to progress through that and be an mma, star, but that doesn't make it bad, it just makes it unproven



What is the title of the thread?

Unproven makes it bad.  So if I get to choose five things to eat. Some will help. Some will do nothing and some will poison me. And i don't know which is which. That is a bad system.


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> What is the title of the thread?
> 
> Unproven makes it bad.  So if I get to choose five things to eat. Some will help. Some will do nothing and some will poison me. And i don't know which is which. That is a bad system.


That's silly , very little in the world is proven, you don't know that your car will start in the morning, you don't know that your computer will switch on and you definitely don't know that your cheese sandwich won't kill you.

Competition bjj, only has a 50% success rate, so it's proven not to work half the time, that is a bad system


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well it isn't now, and it does have anti bBj, tatics



Uh yes it does, its called combat sports and they don't work its stupid stuff like skin tears and punching hands when you post.

You really think you don't get skin tears or accidental knees to the groin when rolling in ordinary jujitsu?


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> That's silly , very little in the world is proven, you don't know that your car will start in the morning, you don't know that your computer will switch on and you definitely don't know that your cheese sandwich won't kill you.
> 
> If I correctly maintain my car the odds are in my favour.
> 
> ...




But with classic/bjj I know that I've tested it and what I can apply, what grade are you in defense lab/kfm? I've seen the entire syllabus and instructor material.


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> But with classic/bjj I know that I've tested it and what I can apply, what grade are you in defense lab/kfm? I've seen the entire syllabus and instructor material.


Tested it against who in what circumstance ?


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Uh yes it does, its called combat sports and they don't work its stupid stuff like skin tears and punching hands when you post.
> 
> You really think you don't get skin tears or accidental knees to the groin when rolling in ordinary jujitsu?


Punching arms/ hands is a reasonable technique, ? Skin Tears Are not a man stopper on their own but that add to the physical and mental damage of your opponent, fighting like any other competitive physical activity has a strong Mental eliment


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> Punching arms/ hands is a reasonable technique, ? Skin Tears Are not a man stopper on their own but that add to the physical and mental damage of your opponent, fighting like any other competitive physical activity has a strong Mental eliment



Against multiple resisting opponents, in street fights etc ect.

They are low percentage, try pinching a softball on a string while a guy tries to hit you.

Bro there's multiple examples of skin tears failing in vale tudo, its pain it doesnt matter.
That's not even factoring in the reduced pain response under adrenaline.
Guy skin tears me? Awesome he's tying up a hand trying to inflict pain.

Let's take an example.

Mount 






Ask Andy Norman what "a blood borne stop and drop process is."

This entire thing is very clearly staged, Rubens neck is already red and his pain response is very slow which tells us he's acting.

Why is andy focusing on pain response and strikes? He's a purple belt under Rigan, he should know getting out of mount is more important.

Why is Rubens posture and bicep control so bad?


Do you train defense lab?


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Against multiple resisting opponents, in street fights etc ect.
> 
> They are low percentage, try pinching a softball on a string while a guy tries to hit you.
> 
> ...


But bJj,won't work against multiple opponents in a street fight, the truth is nothing will, unless you are very strong and very fast,, but going to ground is a suicide note


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 8, 2018)

Separate people bro...

Why are you not answering anything i ask you?

"Nothing will"

Fighting multiple people is drilled in from the start in defense lab,its the core principle which tells me you've never tried it.


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Separate people bro...
> 
> Why are you not answering anything i ask you?
> 
> ...


Because your not dealing with any of the issues I raise, you just keep changing the topic, and as I've said fighting 2or three people is possible if you have significant physical advantages, more than that and you will most probably lose, that's a fact, that's true of any art. Yet a great many of them train multiple opponents,

If you go to ground bjj, style then you will lose if you have physical advantages of not,, someone will hit you Over the head with a bar stool or what ever.

You have been saying bjj, is just better than dl, yet it clearly isn't for mutiples, so that's that one dealt with

So let's get back to whY you think it's betteR one on one. I asked how your tested it, but you didn't bother to reply, to that crucial point


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 8, 2018)

Because you're not using logical arguments.

I've used JJJ/bjj against resisting opponents in KJJ/bjj sessions and street fights, the goal of bjj isn't for me to deliberately take the fight to the ground its to use correct positioning to get back up if taken to the ground.

What does defense lab offer me in terms of ground fighting that isn't covered by JJJ/bjj?

What belt are you in defense lab?


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Because you're not using logical arguments.
> 
> I've used JJJ/bjj against resisting opponents in KJJ/bjj sessions and street fights, the goal of bjj isn't for me to deliberately take the fight to the ground its to use correct positioning to get back up if taken to the ground.
> 
> ...


So tell me about the calibre of your street fight oppoinents, tell me, I've won street fights when I had no training at all, how does your street fights prove that bjj, is better than no training


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> So tell me about the calibre of your street fight oppoinents, tell me, I've won street fights when I had no training at all, how does your street fights prove that bjj, is better than no training



Because it teaches how to escape a mount for one. WHAT DOES DEFENSE LAB OFFER ME AND HAVE YOU TRAINED IT?


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Because it teaches how to escape a mount for one. WHAT DOES DEFENSE LAB OFFER ME AND HAVE YOU TRAINED IT?


But I've won street fights and Never had to escape from a mount,You don't need to if you knock them over before they get near you so again why is BJj,better than no training in your extensive experience of street fights, and you still haven't said how you rate the calibre of your opponents they might be 140lb drunks


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> But I've won street fights and Never had to escape from a mount,You don't need to if you knock them over before they get near you so again why is BJj,better than no training in your extensive experience of street fights, and you still haven't said how you rate the calibre of your opponents they might be 140lb drunks



That's completely anecdotal, I've had situations where in had to escape a mount.

So your logic is don't bother learning it?

I didn't bother to ask them what thier life story is
You're completely derailing this conversation.

What does defense lab offer me that JJ doesn't why are their techniques better?


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> That's completely anecdotal, I've had situations where in had to escape a mount.
> 
> So your logic is don't bother learning it?
> 
> ...



Your claims are completely anecdotal as well and you started it, If you learnt to punch / fight properly you wouldNt be in a mount,,,,ok objective evidence only, , you demonstratE that bjj, is better than dl, for self defence, best of luckk, you can't even demonstratE,bjj,is better than nothing,


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> Your claims are completely anecdotal as well and you started it, If you learnt to punch / fight properly you wouldNt be in a mount,,,,ok objective evidence only, , you demonstratE that bjj, is better than dl, for self defence, best of luckk, you can't even demonstratE,bjj,is better than nothing,



No I'm trying to ask you objectively what does defense lab offer me?

Answer the question.


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> No I'm trying to ask you objectively what does defense lab offer me?
> 
> Answer the question.


i haven't made any claims for or against defence lab, nothing, your the,one making claims you cant back up. 

you've CLAIMED that bjj , is better for self defence, now I'm asking you to support that with objective evidence, which by you faffing, about changing topic it seems you can't do!


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> i haven't made any claims for or against defence lab, nothing, your the,one making claims you cant back up.
> 
> you've CLAIMED that bjj , is better for self defence, now I'm asking you to support that with objective evidence, which by you faffing, about changing topic it seems you can't do!




Defence lab takes BJJ techniques and adds dirty fighting to them, this does not improve or enhance them in any way other than pain response.

Pain response is very very unreliable. 

Defense lab will also opt to go for a technique such as face grabbing or striking from under mount rather than using actually tested techniques demonstrated by its parent art.

Why is BJJ better than nothing? Thats one of the stupidest lovely questions ive ever seen. 

You get tackled, thanks for the guillotine. 
Mounted cool ive escaped this literally 100's of times and i trained how to do it under pressure. 

How do you escape a guy sat on your chest or defend a tackle?


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Defence lab takes BJJ techniques and adds dirty fighting to them, this does not improve or enhance them in any way other than pain response.
> 
> Pain response is very very unreliable.
> 
> ...


I Thought  you were Bringing of obective evidence, That's just opinion.
Ok here an indisputable fact, more street fights are won by people who haven't train d bjj, , Than by those who have,so what measure have you used to establish Bjj, is better at street fights than actual street fighting? It's a fair question


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> I Thought  you were Bringing of obective evidence, That's just opinion.
> Ok here an indisputable fact, more street fights are won by people who haven't train d bjj, , Than by those who have,so what measure have you used to establish Bjj, is better at street fights than actual street fighting? It's a fair question



That the percentage of success is likely higher if you have stress tested and have applied on resisting opponents. 

So objectively does it give me an advantage yes , otherwise why do systems of fighting exist at all?


How does an untrained person defend a tackle? or being mounted? the answer is they unusually don't and lose. 







Case in point, even so much as knowing not to turn your back and bridge out would have helped this guy.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> I Thought  you were Bringing of obective evidence, That's just opinion.
> Ok here an indisputable fact, more street fights are won by people who haven't train d bjj, , Than by those who have,so what measure have you used to establish Bjj, is better at street fights than actual street fighting? It's a fair question




Now back to the topic in hand, why is defense lab better than BJJ?


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> That the percentage of success is likely higher if you have stress tested and have applied on resisting opponents.
> 
> So objectively does it give me an advantage yes , otherwise why do systems of fighting exist at all?
> 
> ...


But you've only stress tested it against other bjj, etc and a few, but an unspecified number of drunks, ,
Defending tackles is to really only required if your fighting a bjj, we or similar, it's a pointless skill of your having a fight in a pub car park and your attacker has a pool cue getting out of a mount is a pointless skill of your attackers stands up and kicks you instead

My is defend tackles the same way I did playing rugby, smash them in the face with my knee


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Now back to the topic in hand, why is defense lab better than BJJ?


I don't think it's better, I thinK bjj,and dl, are as bad as each other, one doesn't stress test and the other doesn't teach you to actually fight someone, so both rubish, if I had to pick on it would be dl, as if you did test it, it would be a much more rounded set of skills


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> But you've only stress tested it against other bjj, etc and a few, but an unspecified number of drunks, ,
> Defending tackles is to really only required if your fighting a bjj, we or similar, it's a pointless skill of your having a fight in a pub car park and your attacker has a pool cue getting out of a mount is a pointless skill of your attackers stands up and kicks you instead
> 
> My is defend tackles the same way I did playing rugby, smash them in the face with my knee




Thats why you round your training out with a striking art.

If you had ever trained defense lab youd never ever say that.


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Thats why you round your training out with a striking art.
> 
> If you had ever trained defense lab youd never ever say that.


like i just said bjj, is USELESS, on its own, it seems you agree.
if you add an art to dl,say boxing its still superior. To bjj, with what ever art to add to it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You dont know the half of it dude.
> 
> Questionable knife defenses
> 
> ...


Wow that is terrible.
My thought process in dealing with a knife is how not to get stabbed or slice more than twice.   I don't want the attacker to have multiple to reset, so he or she can have another opportunity to stab or slice me with the knife.

The multi-attacker drill was horrible.  I guess people don't kick from around is way.  The guy in the back should have been rocking that spine and those kidneys. Not one of them threw an upper cut which is normally what happens when people start to turtle.

To each his own I guess.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 8, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> The multi-attacker drill was horrible.  I guess people don't kick from around is way.  The guy in the back should have been rocking that spine and those kidneys. Not one of them threw an upper cut which is normally what happens when people start to turtle.
> 
> To each his own I guess.



Thats not covered, you're told to only Punch to the head as that's what street fighters do.

The uppercut defence is to put an elbow in the way.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Thats not covered, you're told to only Punch to the head as that's what street fighters do.


Yes that's what they do, but unfortunately that's not all that they do.  If that's their reasoning for the over commitment to that guard then it's not a good one.  But I guess people enjoy their videos and buying their products


----------



## drop bear (Jun 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> That's silly , very little in the world is proven, you don't know that your car will start in the morning, you don't know that your computer will switch on and you definitely don't know that your cheese sandwich won't kill you.
> 
> Competition bjj, only has a 50% success rate, so it's proven not to work half the time, that is a bad system



I don't think existentialism is a great way to practically function.

So while my car may not work it is at least based on theory's that do.

While bjj may fail in competition. It is based on theories that are tested.

What you are suggesting has been asked in a theological theological argument. I will hunt down the video.


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I don't think existentialism is a great way to practically function.
> 
> So while my car may not work it is at least based on theory's that do.
> 
> ...


if your car doesn't work, then theories or at least the,application of them are wrong, if your bjj doesn't work, it doesn't work, the theories or the application of them are wrong. 

claiming its based on sound science when it has at best only a,50% success rate is just optimistic in the,extreme, they wouldn't,sell cars that only work half the time


----------



## jobo (Jun 8, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> That the percentage of success is likely higher if you have stress tested and have applied on resisting opponents.
> 
> So objectively does it give me an advantage yes , otherwise why do systems of fighting exist at all?
> 
> ...


well most,systems are useless, they exist to use against others in a rule based contest, why do you think heavy weight champs have even bigger minders who generaly are not boxers, ? People who have learned to fight by actually fighting have by defintion stress tested. The,skills

The guy in the vid is out numbered and out muscles, the only skill that would have saved him, is a good 400 m time, are you serious claiming if you were,similarly disadvantages, your bjj skills would have saved you a beating


----------



## pdg (Jun 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> if your car doesn't work, then theories or at least the,application of them are wrong, if your bjj doesn't work, it doesn't work, the theories or the application of them are wrong.
> 
> claiming its based on sound science when it has at best only a,50% success rate is just optimistic in the,extreme, they wouldn't,sell cars that only work half the time



Your entire argument is fundamentally flawed.

A car (as said) is based on sound theories that are proven to work.

If you go out in the morning and it doesn't start, that doesn't mean the theory is wrong or the application is wrong - it means it's broken.

My Land Rover is 46 years old. If it doesn't start tomorrow morning it hasn't suddenly switched theoretical implementation of ideas that it's used successfully for almost half a century - it's broken. The most likely reason for any car to suddenly not start one day would be a flat battery, which is actually the least 'car' part present and most likely down to user error (leaving lights on or similar).

I can only make an assumption about your 50% success rate theory being that in BJJ competition there is one winner and one loser per match, hence 50% success (the winner) and 50% fail (the loser).

So, compare that to car racing - say there are 20 cars competing, there will be one winner. That's actually a 5% success rate and a 95% failure rate.

So no, they don't make cars that only work half the time - they make cars that only 'work' (using the only logical explanation of your comparison) at best 5% of the time.

Then, you could race a Mini against a Maserati. As long as the Mas doesn't break it's going to have a 100% success rate.

Don't get a Mini, they never ever work...

Now race that Mas against a Jeep.

In mud.

Oops, don't get a Maserati, they never ever work.


I'm making this assumption because put a BJJer against a boxer, but only use BJJ rules - that boxer will get wiped out so BJJ will have a 100% success rate.

Now switch rulesets - the boxer will win every time.

So, unless you have some other fantastical notion that lets you dream of 50% I say again - your argument is fundamentally flawed.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 9, 2018)

jobo said:


> if your car doesn't work, then theories or at least the,application of them are wrong, if your bjj doesn't work, it doesn't work, the theories or the application of them are wrong.
> 
> claiming its based on sound science when it has at best only a,50% success rate is just optimistic in the,extreme, they wouldn't,sell cars that only work half the time



But you said cars might not work. You can't sell cars on that basis either. 

Of course our society functions on the basis cars work because they mostly do. And that is because the science is sound. Eg. Science works bitches.

The 50% success rate for BJJ is incorrect. You are looking at every match one wins one looses. And therefore get your 50%.

But that is not how you interparate data. 

So far KFM has no method of testing and runs counter to the trends set by BJJ which does test.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 9, 2018)

jobo said:


> well most,systems are useless, they exist to use against others in a rule based contest, why do you think heavy weight champs have even bigger minders who generaly are not boxers, ? People who have learned to fight by actually fighting have by defintion stress tested. The,skills
> 
> The guy in the vid is out numbered and out muscles, the only skill that would have saved him, is a good 400 m time, are you serious claiming if you were,similarly disadvantages, your bjj skills would have saved you a beating



I have done body guard work. Sorry what was your assumption again?


----------



## jobo (Jun 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> But you said cars might not work. You can't sell cars on that basis either.
> 
> Of course our society functions on the basis cars work because they mostly do. And that is because the science is sound. Eg. Science works bitches.
> 
> ...


If bJj,was based on good science ever bJj,match would be a draw


----------



## pdg (Jun 9, 2018)

jobo said:


> If bJj,was based on good science ever bJj,match would be a draw



By that reasoning (and your previous comparison) so would every car race.


----------



## jobo (Jun 9, 2018)

pdg said:


> By that reasoning (and your previous comparison) so would every car race.


All cars Arnt, the same, all bjj, should be, so yes if Mechanical science was the defining factor all races between identical cars should be a draw


----------



## pdg (Jun 9, 2018)

jobo said:


> All cars Arnt, the same, all bjj, should be, so yes if Mechanical science was the defining factor all races between identical cars should be a draw



But there are tolerances and materialistic differences in every mechanical assembly, so even between two 'identical' cars one will perform slightly differently than the other even though the mechanical science is the same. Look at single make race series' - they all use the same car built to the same spec yet they don't all cross the line together. Or even F1, team mates (usually) use the same cars built from the same parts and one beats the other.

No two people are identical, so there's always going to be a set of advantages and disadvantages between two people using BJJ (or karate, or tkd, or street fighting) - whoever can play up their advantages while overcoming their disadvantages (and at the same time overcoming their opponent's advantages and using their disadvantages) will win.

In the single make race series it's designed so the driver (and support team) is the deciding factor, the car itself is supposed to have no influence. They're all given the same tools and the one that can use them the best wins.

In BJJ (or any other art) everyone is theoretically given the same tools and whoever can use them the best wins.


You got any more flawed reasoning to offer?


----------



## jobo (Jun 9, 2018)

pdg said:


> But there are tolerances and materialistic differences in every mechanical assembly, so even between two 'identical' cars one will perform slightly differently than the other even though the mechanical science is the same. Look at single make race series' - they all use the same car built to the same spec yet they don't all cross the line together. Or even F1, team mates (usually) use the same cars built from the same parts and one beats the other.
> 
> No two people are identical, so there's always going to be a set of advantages and disadvantages between two people using BJJ (or karate, or tkd, or street fighting) - whoever can play up their advantages while overcoming their disadvantages (and at the same time overcoming their opponent's advantages and using their disadvantages) will win.
> 
> ...



Well yes, exactly, who wins in a single make race isn't down to the science of car design, it's down to the attributes of the driver( and others) so the winner in a bJj,match is the person with the best physical attributes, then it's clear that any comparison made between bjj, and DL, is also mostly dependent on the physical attibutes of the person, and not as some are suggesting that one is much superior to the other because of science


----------



## pdg (Jun 9, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well yes, exactly, who wins in a single make race isn't down to the science of car design, it's down to the attributes of the driver( and others) so the winner in a bJj,match is the person with the best physical attributes, then it's clear that any comparison made between bjj, and DL, is also mostly dependent on the physical attibutes of the person, and not as some are suggesting that one is much superior to the other because of science



It's not always the person with the best physical attributes who will win - it's the one who can best apply the attributes they have.

But that's a different comparison.

BJJ vs DL is giving the two people a different set of tools.

A person who is stronger and faster won't necessarily win if they don't know how to apply that strength and speed.

Teach someone to only protect their head because that's the only target in a street fight - then see what happens if they turtle and get an elbow to the lower spine followed by a leg sweep and a restomp to the groin.

Poor tools, poor science, poor outcome.


----------



## jobo (Jun 9, 2018)

Your quoting science again, there is no science, just opinions and anecdotal evidence,how you apply an attributes is it's self an attribute. just like our car driver needs a coOl head to go with his reflexs

Fighting systems don't exist with out the attributes of the people who use them, to say one is better, with out some sort of measure of the person using it is BAD science.
If I out drive a Porsche in my ford( as I have) that doesn't mean Ford's are the better car,


----------



## pdg (Jun 9, 2018)

jobo said:


> If I out drive a Porsche in my ford( as I have) that doesn't mean Ford's are the better car,



Depends what you consider better really, chances are your ford has a bigger boot than a Porsche and uses less fuel, it's likely easier to park too - so it's a better car for shopping.

And if a kenpo practitioner gets beaten with a 'no touch knockout' it doesn't mean that kenpo is bad.

But, for racing (fighting) we can look scientifically and say that the Porsche (kenpo) is better than the ford (no touch system).

We can also say that the Porsche you allegedly outdrove was being driven by someone who couldn't really be bothered trying to race some numpty in a clattery rusty old ford...

Same with BJJ vs DL - we can look scientifically at the processes taught and evaluate which system has the greater likelihood of success.


----------



## jobo (Jun 9, 2018)

pdg said:


> Depends what you consider better really, chances are your ford has a bigger boot than a Porsche and uses less fuel, it's likely easier to park too - so it's a better car for shopping.
> 
> And if a kenpo practitioner gets beaten with a 'no touch knockout' it doesn't mean that kenpo is bad.
> 
> ...


Hang on youVe swerved this into no touch system, that's not at all included in my rational, bjj, V dl,is the discusion

In it wasn't a clatter th old ford, though I have Annoyed the heLl out of nearly new 2l bmw by blowing then off, in a veryClattery,old ford, iMnot up to racing porches in a ten year old focus, as good as I am, it was a Xr 4x4, That though mature wasn't at all clattery,that I used to see porches off in, the only thing that ever got away from me On a bendy road,was a Also mature,Audi quatro


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 9, 2018)

jobo said:


> If I out drive a Porsche in my ford( as I have) that doesn't mean Ford's are the better car,



It probably just means that the Porsche didn't know there was a race going on.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 9, 2018)

To be fair they do teach defense against body shots by lowering stance and dropping elbows.


----------



## jobo (Jun 9, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> It probably just means that the Porsche didn't know there was a race going on.


when their doing 120 three foot behind you, they they generaly know there's a race on


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 9, 2018)

jobo said:


> when their doing 120 three foot behind you, they they generaly know there's a race on



120 ******** that's an instant ban


----------



## pdg (Jun 9, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> 120 ******** that's an instant ban



Only if you get caught.

And, not always an instant ban - I know a few people who have been caught doing that and more and not lost their licence.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 9, 2018)

jobo said:


> If bJj,was based on good science ever bJj,match would be a draw



Really?
How would you rationalise that?


----------



## drop bear (Jun 9, 2018)

jobo said:


> All cars Arnt, the same, all bjj, should be, so yes if Mechanical science was the defining factor all races between identical cars should be a draw



There is a motorcycle guide called this of the wrist. Which explains the science is not just in the mechanics of the vehicle but also the actions of the rider.
Twist of the Wrist - Interactive Vol. 1

Machines don't just do whatever they want. Bodies don't just do whatever they want. Individuals who excel are not really the product of random magic. As much as people who don't excel like to believe that is the case. 

In any activity be it car racing or BJJ or self defence there are methods of training that consistently improve the individuals performance.

In BJJ you can see this by trends. So if one person wins 90% of his matches. He may be individually gifted. If his method increases other individuals winning rates above 50% or probably more accurately above their own base line  then the method has a scientific evidence behind it.

So in layman's terms when 10th planet walks in and takes all the medals. They probably have the better method.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 9, 2018)

jobo said:


> Hang on youVe swerved this into no touch system, that's not at all included in my rational, bjj, V dl,is the discusion
> 
> In it wasn't a clatter th old ford, though I have Annoyed the heLl out of nearly new 2l bmw by blowing then off, in a veryClattery,old ford, iMnot up to racing porches in a ten year old focus, as good as I am, it was a Xr 4x4, That though mature wasn't at all clattery,that I used to see porches off in, the only thing that ever got away from me On a bendy road,was a Also mature,Audi quatro



Untested is untested. No touch is the same rational as compliant drilling. 

If I pretend poke you in the eye and that wins me the scenario. That is exactly the same method as if I shot you with my hardooken from a foot away.


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Really?
> How would you rationalise that?


Because science always works, or its not science, and bJj,is not baSed on science, at least not a reasonable definition of science


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There is a motorcycle guide called this of the wrist. Which explains the science is not just in the mechanics of the vehicle but also the actions of the rider.
> Twist of the Wrist - Interactive Vol. 1
> 
> Machines don't just do whatever they want. Bodies don't just do whatever they want. Individuals who excel are not really the product of random magic. As much as people who don't excel like to believe that is the case.
> ...


Ok give me an example of a training methods that gives CONSISTANT improvement, human beings are incapable of CONSISTANT improvement, if they improve at all then any improvMent will be inconsistent, 

Second if you only measure the effectiveness of bjj, against bjj, then you have installed a positive feedback loop, that has no relation to self defence, which is out topic,any trends you see can't just be applied to the real world, as meaning anything at all.

If you try to draw data from say mma, then the fighter has used other skills that are not native to bjj, at which point , what they are doing only contains bjj, it is NOT bjj,so the data means nothing in this context. 

If your claiming bjj, is hard on science, then let's see some scientific experiments and the resultant data, just claiming their are trends, is not science


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Untested is untested. No touch is the same rational as compliant drilling.
> 
> If I pretend poke you in the eye and that wins me the scenario. That is exactly the same method as if I shot you with my hardooken from a foot away.


No,,,,, kicking at football at an imaginary goal is reasonable practise, kicking an imaginary football at an imaginary goal is not


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> No,,,,, kicking at football at an imaginary goal is reasonable practise, kicking an imaginary football at an imaginary goal is not




If "kicking the football" is an eye gouge and scoring a field goal is success you're not even kicking the ball  you're miming kicking it


----------



## drop bear (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> No,,,,, kicking at football at an imaginary goal is reasonable practise, kicking an imaginary football at an imaginary goal is not



The goal isn't fighting back.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Ok give me an example of a training methods that gives CONSISTANT improvement, human beings are incapable of CONSISTANT improvement, if they improve at all then any improvMent will be inconsistent,
> 
> Second if you only measure the effectiveness of bjj, against bjj, then you have installed a positive feedback loop, that has no relation to self defence, which is out topic,any trends you see can't just be applied to the real world, as meaning anything at all.
> 
> ...



So you don't think that if someone starts running when they haven't before they will show improvement in fitness? And that will be consistent.

The consensual violence vs non consensual argument that you are working on mostly just doesn't work. It hinges on if you can't base your method on self defence you are better off basing your method on nothing.

And as a practical training system it collapses. Dry land swimming basically.

Uses scientific method.

Scientific method - Wikipedia


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> So you don't think that if someone starts running when they haven't before they will show improvement in fitness? And that will be consistent.
> 
> The consensual violence vs non consensual argument that you are working on mostly just doesn't work. It hinges on if you can't base your method on self defence you are better off basing your method on nothing.
> 
> ...


I know what the scientific method is, I'm asking YOU to back up the claim that bjj, is scientific, by showing that it has been subject to the scientific method,For self defence, you know actual data,


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> So you don't think that if someone starts running when they haven't before they will show improvement in fitness? And that will be consistent.
> 
> The consensual violence vs non consensual argument that you are working on mostly just doesn't work. It hinges on if you can't base your method on self defence you are better off basing your method on nothing.
> 
> ...


Well no, gains in fitness will be inconsistent,


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> If "kicking the football" is an eye gouge and scoring a field goal is success you're not even kicking the ball  you're miming kicking it


Sorry I'm talking about actual football here, wHere you use your feet


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The goal isn't fighting back.


Goals never fight back,Particularly not imaginary ones, practising hiTingg the same spot on day a wall, is good practise, even though the goal is imaginary


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Goals never fight back,Particularly not imaginary ones, practising hiTingg the same spot on day a wall, is good practise, even though the goal is imaginary



But its not because your training isn't alive


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 10, 2018)

Fine scientific method
Question 
How do I get a person off my chest who has mounted me?

Research





We can see that the natural response to this is to turtle up

Hypothesis

If I use a white belt bridge, arm trap and roll I can get the person off me easier than if i had no training.

Experiment

I will have a friend mount me 20 times and attempt the bjj escapes.

As a control I will try to escape 20 times using no bjj at all.


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Fine scientific method
> Question
> How do I get a person off my chest who has mounted me?
> 
> ...


How's this deal with self defence,? You would need to be defending yourself from an attacker with a knife, let's see how well you escape works when he is repeatedly stabbing you.

Or test, three of his friends kick you repratedly, whilst you try to escape,


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Scenario training.
> 
> I don't agree with the idea of scenario training, its develops a very fixed response to what is a dynamic situation, person does X I do Y and Z happens. This doesn't prepare you for when you do Y and Z doesn't happen.


To me, that's not scenario training. That's application training (and, further, what I refer to as "structured applications"). Yes, there's a scenario, but it's too controlled to be considered "scenario training" IMO. It's not training for the scenario, but training a specific use of a specific  technique. Fixed responses are where most fighting skills start (the first time you learn a single-leg, you learn to use it against a specific position/attack from your partner). Building out from those fixed responses is what free-flow drills, sparring, scenario training, etc. should be about.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Example i can give is.
> 
> You are seated, a person attacks you, you respond i x technique, or a person grabs you, there is very little in the way of free form sparring in the war other arts I have done would describe it.


I'd call that an application that fits into the scenario of that kind of attack. If you do a few of those, you start to build a base of principles for responding to that kind of scenario. Only then (usually) do you go to the actual scenario, and say "go".

The same progression happens in all arts. BJJ early on teaches a simple sweep from inside mount. Then another. Then another. Then another. Along the way, there will be points where they work the scenario (okay, you're on the ground - Bob, you've got mount....go!). I'll point out that it's not uncommon for self-defense-oriented schools to forget to make the transition to scenario training to see what really happens there. Even limited scenarios (where the input/attacker is limited on his entry) is better than just stopping at the applications.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> How's this deal with self defence,? You would need to be defending yourself from an attacker with a knife, let's see how well you escape works when he is repeatedly stabbing you.
> 
> Or test, three of his friends kick you repratedly, whilst you try to escape,



In none of the above instances did that happen.

The response is different stop goal posting


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Its reiterating my point, its all marketing, find me 1 video of defence lab being used on a non compliant partner.
> 
> 1. The knife just flies out of the guys hand
> 2. Stick defence, you're transferring all of the force of that stick into your neck and that's not even addressing if the person attacking has a machete.
> ...


Videos meant for teaching (and demos for marketing) pretty much never include non-compliant partners. It's hard to teach something when the other guy knows what's coming and makes it a bad choice. The only times I can think of that I've seen non-compliant partners in training was when they were told to oppose a specific technique (I'm going to X - you stop me) to show how another technique is a good answer to that resistance.

EDIT: I thought of one other way non-compliance is used - and that's to show that certain kinds of resistance don't actually stop the technique from working, as long as you do X. There's a good sweep tutorial by one of the Gracies where he tells his partner basically, "Use your hand all you want, but don't use technique to resist", to show that his head position in the bridge makes that hand ineffective for resistance.


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> In none of the above instances did that happen.
> 
> The response is different stop goal posting


It's scientific data for its usefulness at self defence we need, your doing what you accuse dl, of, building an unlikely scenario to make it look more effective than it is

To get meaningful data, you need a real attacker, who wants to hurt you, and conversely the attacker must know if you do get hold of him he will be hurt, in other words a real fight, definitely not starting with you lay on the ground, That's not realistic,at least not Unless you are Sun bathing when the attack happens


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

Malos1979 said:


> I don't understand why systems like these overcomplicate things, just teach people simply to punch and protect their heads and your on a right track I think.
> 
> I've done quite a bit of Kali the last couple of years and they do the same, overcomplicating things with a 1001 drills, maybe the drills will develop some attributes but still stickfighting on the street won't be like those drills, it will be "smack smack" and one will be still standing.
> 
> my 2 cents


Some of that happens because people want to train an art for a lot of years. Eventually, many of us start "fiddling" with things, to find new and interesting ways to make stuff happen. Often, the gains are minuscule, but it gives the long-timers something to do.

And a punch isn't always the right answer.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> It's no more meaningless than your claim you train for " quality fighters"


I don't think that's a meaningless claim. He trains at a gym where quality fighters train (taking MMA fights as a reasonable measuring system).


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'd call that an application that fits into the scenario of that kind of attack. If you do a few of those, you start to build a base of principles for responding to that kind of scenario. Only then (usually) do you go to the actual scenario, and say "go".
> 
> The same progression happens in all arts. BJJ early on teaches a simple sweep from inside mount. Then another. Then another. Then another. Along the way, there will be points where they work the scenario (okay, you're on the ground - Bob, you've got mount....go!). I'll point out that it's not uncommon for self-defense-oriented schools to forget to make the transition to scenario training to see what really happens there. Even limited scenarios (where the input/attacker is limited on his entry) is better than just stopping at the applications.





That's the issue there is no go


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> But I'm make the same point I made earlier, that is equally true of many tma,


And some MA that arguably aren't very T.


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think that's a meaningless claim. He trains at a gym where quality fighters train (taking MMA fights as a reasonable measuring system).


It is unless he actually defines quality


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> It's scientific data for its usefulness at self defence we need, your doing what you accuse dl, of, building an unlikely scenario to make it look more effective than it is
> 
> To get meaningful data, you need a real attacker, who wants to hurt you, and conversely the attacker must know if you do get hold of him he will be hurt, in other words a real fight, definitely not starting with you lay on the ground, That's not realistic,at least not Unless you are Sun bathing when the attack happens



I can go from standing and with proper equipment we go roll hard


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> It is unless he actually defines quality


I don't accuse I know they don't  use scientific method.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> It maybe a new art,, but it has the same problem as all the old arts, you can't actually Poke people in the eyeFor real,
> It's scenario based, anything scenario based already has the winner selected.


It shouldn't. Scenario training against a knife should have (in the free stages) failure as a probable outcome, unless someone gets that much better than the people around them. Structuring the scenario (limiting input options) should change the percentages, but probably shouldn't ever make it an always-win thing.


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> And some MA that arguably aren't very T.


?? Arnt, very what?


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It shouldn't. Scenario training against a knife should have (in the free stages) failure as a probable outcome, unless someone gets that much better than the people around them. Structuring the scenario (limiting input options) should change the percentages, but probably shouldn't ever make it an always-win thing.


If it doesn't have a scripts, it's not a scenario, you fight for the knife, as scripted, he isn't allowed to head but you and then stab you, so you have the advantage and there an unconscious bias in such to prove the TEChnique works


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The 50% success rate for BJJ is incorrect. You are looking at every match one wins one looses. And therefore get your 50%.


In a BJJ match, BJJ has a 100% failure rate. And a 100% success rate. Go figure.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> If bJj,was based on good science ever bJj,match would be a draw


Um...where did you get the ramp to make that leap?


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> In a BJJ match, BJJ has a 100% failure rate. And a 100% success rate. Go figure.


Or an average of 50%


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well no, gains in fitness will be inconsistent,


That depends what we consider "consistent". If we say gains every day, not gonna be consistent. If we say gains every month, with a decreasing curve, that's going to be a consistent trend until they either get injured, reach their current max at the current training level, or some such.

We can also say it won't be "every person will gain by the same curve", but we can say that every non-runner with the ability to improve will improve their running ability (consistently across the population) by practicing running.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Sorry I'm talking about actual football here, wHere you use your feet


In fairness, he is talking about one of the three things they actually use their feet for in American "football".


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> But its not because your training isn't alive


Still useful practice. Non-live drills are part of every kind of MA and sports training I can think of.


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That depends what we consider "consistent". If we say gains every day, not gonna be consistent. If we say gains every month, with a decreasing curve, that's going to be a consistent trend until they either get injured, reach their current max at the current training level, or some such.
> 
> We can also say it won't be "every person will gain by the same curve", but we can say that every non-runner with the ability to improve will improve their running ability (consistently across the population) by practicing running.


Constant mean all the time, all day everyday, you need to be fitter at 6 than you were at 5 which is fitter than you were at 4. And then day after day,


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> How's this deal with self defence,? You would need to be defending yourself from an attacker with a knife, let's see how well you escape works when he is repeatedly stabbing you.
> 
> Or test, three of his friends kick you repratedly, whilst you try to escape,


So, it only has any effectiveness if it works against a knife?????


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> It is unless he actually defines quality


So, ask for that, rather than simply saying it's meaningless. Otherwise, every time someone uses a word with multiple connotations, we'd just call their statement meaningless.


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> In fairness, he is talking about one of the three things they actually use their feet for in American "football".


What's thevothervtwo, standing an


gpseymour said:


> So, it only has any effectiveness if it works against a knife?????


You selectively quoting my posts out o context to the post I quoted.

If your claiming its good for self defence, then needs to include all aspects of SELF defence, including knives and friends who kick you


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> ?? Arnt, very what?


Sorry - thought you'd follow that line. You referred to TMA (Traditional Martial Arts). That same statement can be made about some Martial Arts that arguably aren't very Traditional.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> If it doesn't have a scripts, it's not a scenario, you fight for the knife, as scripted, he isn't allowed to head but you and then stab you, so you have the advantage and there an unconscious bias in such to prove the TEChnique works


The "scenario" (as I've seen the term used) is what you set up in advance. "So, you're in this chair, this dude has a stick...." That's the scenario. Often, it gets broadened out, and loses what I'd call "scenario" qualities - just "dude has a stick". It's a vague distinction, and only works well when folks involved agree on a similar definition of the term. I refer to scenario training, but I'm not sure if I've ever actually used the term with students - I just do progressive drills and set-ups, and some of them I'd consider scenarios, and others I wouldn't.


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> So, ask for that, rather than simply saying it's meaningless. Otherwise, every time someone uses a word with multiple connotations, we'd just call their statement meaningless.


But he said my statement was it's self meanless, so I responded by saying his was equally so, are you only reading my posts, you reproducing with out the context in which they were made


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Or an average of 50%


BJJ _*always *_is the winning art in every BJJ match. Averaging the two out doesn't give a clear picture - it's a misapplication of statistical methods, given the situation.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Constant mean all the time, all day everyday, you need to be fitter at 6 than you were at 5 which is fitter than you were at 4. And then day after day,


Constant and consistent aren't the same.


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Constant and consistent aren't the same.





gpseymour said:


> BJJ _*always *_is the winning art in every BJJ match. Averaging the two out doesn't give a clear picture - it's a misapplication of statistical methods, given the situation.


And one of a fighter loses in every match, maybe he loses every match


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> What's thevothervtwo, standing an


To field goal, add kick-off and punting. I think there's technically also still a "drop kick" in the rules, but I don't know if it has been used in the last 30 years.



> You selectively quoting my posts out o context to the post I quoted.
> 
> If your claiming its good for self defence, then needs to include all aspects of SELF defence, including knives and friends who kick you


I don't agree. Something can be good for self-defense and not have every answer (especially to situations where there aren't good answers - like being on the ground against a knife). A punch is demonstrably effective in self-defense, but there are lots of situations where it's just not very useful.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> But he said my statement was it's self meanless, so I responded by saying his was equally so, are you only reading my posts, you reproducing with out the context in which they were made


No, I'm reading all the posts, and replying to some.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> And one of a fighter loses in every match, maybe he loses every match


Okay, that fighter may have a success rate anywhere from 0-100%. That's valid. BJJ still wins every match.


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, that fighter may have a success rate anywhere from 0-100%. That's valid. BJJ still wins every match.


And loses every match


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> To field goal, add kick-off and punting. I think there's technically also still a "drop kick" in the rules, but I don't know if it has been used in the last 30 years.
> 
> 
> I don't agree. Something can be good for self-defense and not have every answer (especially to situations where there aren't good answers - like being on the ground against a knife). A punch is demonstrably effective in self-defense, but there are lots of situations where it's just not very useful.


Well expressly they are claiming bjj, is better at self defence than defence lab, because for one dl, doesn't teach how to get out of a mount, my point is they canT provide any actual data to support that, I'm not rehashing debates from two days ago because you missed them, support theIrclaim If that's your belief and let's start from their


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Constant and consistent aren't the same.


It's late and I'm not reading things properly


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well expressly they are claiming bjj, is better at self defence than defence lab, because for one dl, doesn't teach how to get out of a mount, my point is they canT provide any actual data to support that, I'm not rehashing debates from two days ago because you missed them, support theIrclaim If that's your belief and let's start from their


I didn't think that claim was the point of the post in question. I thought that post was talking about BJJ vs no training, at all.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> It's late and I'm not reading things properly


Oh, yeah, it is pretty late out that way. Get some sleep, man. We can jabber and ***** some other time.


----------



## jobo (Jun 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I didn't think that claim was the point of the post in question. I thought that post was talking about BJJ vs no training, at all.


Well that was an extention, but only to prove the point that they have no daTa at all to support anything


----------



## drop bear (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well no, gains in fitness will be inconsistent,



So If use 1 method of training the outcome could be anything. So I lift heavy weights. I may get stronger or I may get weaker. There is no way to tell?

Like when you turn the key your car may start or it may become a bouquet of flowers. How can we really tell?

As I said existentialism is an inpractical way to manage life.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Constant mean all the time, all day everyday, you need to be fitter at 6 than you were at 5 which is fitter than you were at 4. And then day after day,



consistent
kənˈsɪst(ə)nt/
_adjective_

1.
acting or done in the same way over time, especially so as to be fair or accurate.
"the parents are being consistent and firm in their reactions"
2.
(of an argument or set of ideas) not containing any logical contradictions.
"a consistent explanation"


----------



## drop bear (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well expressly they are claiming bjj, is better at self defence than defence lab, because for one dl, doesn't teach how to get out of a mount, my point is they canT provide any actual data to support that, I'm not rehashing debates from two days ago because you missed them, support theIrclaim If that's your belief and let's start from their



There is no evidence that defence lab has ever gotten out of mount. Other than being let out of mount by their training partner. Or ever gotten out of anything.

we haven't seen DL work live or resisted at any point. So even your incorrect 50% success rate is better than zero success.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> If it doesn't have a scripts, it's not a scenario, you fight for the knife, as scripted, he isn't allowed to head but you and then stab you, so you have the advantage and there an unconscious bias in such to prove the TEChnique works



Not really. If you can't headbut or stab him then the contest is even. But regardless the contest doesn't have to be even. So long as there is honest feed back in which to make an assesment.

So if he has a rubber knife and stabs me fifty times to victory. then we can still build a theory off that. Even if the theory is dont try to take a knife off a guy.


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> So If use 1 method of training the outcome could be anything. So I lift heavy weights. I may get stronger or I may get weaker. There is no way to tell?
> 
> Like when you turn the key your car may start or it may become a bouquet of flowers. How can we really tell?
> 
> As I said existentialism is an inpractical way to manage life.


If you train consistently, your gains will not Be consistant, they will vary week on week, some weeks you will make no gain at all,Some times you won't be as strong as last week, some times quite a lot, But it will always vary,until eventually you stop making gains at all, that is the very dDefinition of inconsistent,


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There is no evidence that defence lab has ever gotten out of mount. Other than being let out of mount by their training partner. Or ever gotten out of anything.
> 
> we haven't seen DL work live or resisted at any point. So even your incorrect 50% success rate is better than zero success.


But there's no evidence that bjj, is better than no training at all for self defence. , so that's a zero foR bjj,aswell


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> But there's no evidence that bjj, is better than no training at all for self defence. , so that's a zero foR bjj,aswell




How do you get out of a mount?


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> How do you get out of a mount?


I dont, no one has mounted me( in a fight) since I was 8 years old, so it seems a completely pointless thing to worry about , I'm far more concerned with how not to end up lay on my back with some sAt on me


----------



## pdg (Jun 11, 2018)

I'm utterly befuddled, can someone assist please?

Is the argument that KFM/DL is no good, or is it good?

Is BJJ supposed to be good or bad?

For either system and either answer, how would one come up with a scientifically valid method of assessment and against what should it be measured?

All the almost incoherent babble about a Ford that only works half the time because it reinterprets the scientific principles it's designed around on a daily basis beating a Porsche has thrown me a bit and I'm completely lost.


Oh, and most importantly and intriguingly of all - what art does @jobo study that allows pseudo scientific debunking of other arts?

Seriously, you seem to think you talk a hard man game with stories of bottles and beating people up with no remorse, but I don't recall mention of any formal training...


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm utterly befuddled, can someone assist please?
> 
> Is the argument that KFM/DL is no good, or is it good?
> 
> ...


I have variously trained in judu,kung, fu,briefly in tkd, and currently in karate, spread out over 45  years or so. , fighting people , fighting people with bottles was just a part of growing up in salford,  you couldn't fight, you got beaten up, there was three of them you used a bottletle. , not fighting wasNtreally an option, ,They just caught you later,, you moved three streets to far you got beaten up, you went in the wrong pub you got beaten up, you won at pool you got beaten up, even getting on a bus was likely to end in you getting beaten up, I once got into a fight whilst carry a fridge,
 from a Van into a house, it was all of five yards, they didn't like my attitude

I was in the pUnk wars, fought across Manchester in 76/77, where gangs would beat you up just got having short hair and a leather jacket, I was involved in the mod/ rocket revival Fights of the early 80s we're gangs would beat you up or having long hair and a leather jacket, and if course numerous man United away matches that always ended in a fight,

All this not helped by me being tall, thin , having red hair and being really mouthy


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> I dont, no one has mounted me( in a fight) since I was 8 years old, so it seems a completely pointless thing to worry about , I'm far more concerned with how not to end up lay on my back with some sAt on me




Thats subjective logic though, objectively being mounted does happen and i provided video evidence. 

What do you do?


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Thats subjective logic though, objectively being mounted does happen and i provided video evidence.
> 
> What do you do?


Well no thAt objective logic, objectively no one has done that to me, just as no one has dropped on anvil of a cliff on to my head, so I worry about nether, though both are remotely possible. The world full of remote possibilities that I spend no time on at all.

If we take your vid, if I have someone twice my weight Say on me and he has three friends with him, then I have lost anyway, getting out of the amount, if possible with someone who weights 400 lbs, will only mean I'm be beaten up by him AND his friends, so largely a pointless thing to do,


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 11, 2018)

You goalpost every time in order to dodge the question.

Have you ever trained defense lab?
What would you do if mounted?

You've also derailed this entire thread


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You goalpost every time in order to dodge the question.
> 
> Have you ever trained defense lab?
> What would you do if mounted?
> ...


I've answered both those questions,
I'm waiting for anyone to come up with some data that bjj, is better than dl, it seems no one can manage to do so, so it seems they are both the same level for self defence


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> I've answered both those questions,
> I'm waiting for anyone to come up with some data that bjj, is better than dl, it seems no one can manage to do so, so it seems they are both the same level for self defence



No you didn't.

Bjj uses tested techniques against resisting opponents

Defence lab doesn't


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> No you didn't.
> 
> Bjj uses tested techniques against resisting opponents
> 
> Defence lab doesn't


yes i did, perhaps not as you wished,

its now gone full circle, bjj has only been tested against other bjjers and not at all fir self defence,
so both systems are untested for self defence, your anecdotes don't count as a scientific test


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> yes i did, perhaps not as you wished,
> 
> its now gone full circle, bjj has only been tested against other bjjers and not at all fir self defence,
> so both systems are untested for self defence, your anecdotes don't count as a scientific test



No you goal posted the question
I wouldn't let it happen isn't an answer

Bjj is used in mma almost exclusively we have demonstration of it working

The techniques don't change other than to adapt them to the situation at hand.

To say no training is better than bjj is idiotic.

What's an acceptable sample size because so far all you do is deflect or goalpost.


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> No you goal posted the question
> I wouldn't let it happen isn't an answer
> 
> Bjj is used in mma almost exclusively we have demonstration of it working
> ...


i didn't say i wouldnt let it happen , i said its only a remote possibility, sp not worth worrying about and that is an answer to a very hypothetical question,

mma is not a self defence situation, its rules based sport, have you anything that supports your claim is better than nothing for self defence?, if you cant prove its better than nothing, how are you going to show its better than dl,?


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 11, 2018)

Mount  escape

How many instances do I have to find? Just because its not happening to you doesnt mean it doesn't happen


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> i didn't say i wouldnt let it happen , i said its only a remote possibility, sp not worth worrying about and that is an answer to a very hypothetical question,
> 
> mma is not a self defence situation, its rules based sport, have you anything that supports your claim is better than nothing for self defence?, if you cant prove its better than nothing, how are you going to show its better than dl,?



As I've told you, using it in alive resistant training and in fights.


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> As I've told you, using it in alive resistant training and in fights.


no, let's not get involve in your anacdotes as being scientific proof.

ok, every days close to a 100% of fights that happen all over the world are won by people with no formal training, to show bjj is more effective than no formal training, you'd need to show that bjj had a better, ie more or less 100% success rate in self defence, can you do that


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 11, 2018)

I haven't experienced DL, so I won't make any blanket judgments regarding the art.

As far as these claims ...



jobo said:


> I thinK bjj,and dl, are as bad as each other, one doesn't stress test and the *other doesn't teach you to actually fight someone*, so both rubish, if I had to pick on it would be dl, as if you did test it, it would be a much more rounded set of skills





jobo said:


> bjj has only been tested against other bjjers and not at all fir self defence,
























I could go on and on. BJJ made its reputation originally through challenge matches against practitioners of other martial artists, street fighters, and generally anybody who was willing. A big selling point was the repeatedly demonstrated ability of BJJ practitioners to defeat bigger, stronger opponents. The whole blending of BJJ with other arts in MMA didn't happen until after that reputation was well established.

Personally, I've tested my BJJ against a wide range of opponents with backgrounds other than BJJ. I'm certainly not the only BJJ practitioner I know to do the same.

(Now if you wanted to complain that many

As far as the "scientifically tested" claim ... meh. It's really hard to do high-quality scientific studies on the effectiveness of any martial art due to the practical and moral difficulties in controlling all the relevant variables. However - the idea that having an art be "scientifically tested" means that practitioners of that art would win every fight? That's just silly and displays no understanding of science.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 11, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I haven't experienced DL, so I won't make any blanket judgments regarding the art.
> 
> As far as these claims ...
> 
> ...



Hilariously the catchphrase of defence lab is the science of defence


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I haven't experienced DL, so I won't make any blanket judgments regarding the art.
> 
> As far as these claims ...
> 
> ...


I'm not doubting. The graces and a few other are very very good,but that like me claiming kung fi is good because Bruce lee did it, for people to claim its good for self defence, then it has to be good for all bjjers, not just a few, if they can't all beat a 300lbs monster, then a vids of a few people doing so are meaningless as proof of its effectiveness.

yes i. Know it's impossible to prove scientific ,which makes peoples claims, that its been scientifically proven to work compl


Tony Dismukes said:


> I haven't experienced DL, so I won't make any blanket judgments regarding the art.
> 
> As far as these claims ...
> 
> ...


they would have to win more than the stastictical averages to show bjj, was better than nothing, a good untrained fighter will won close to a100% of street alterccationsif they arnt better than that?


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> I'm not doubting. The graces and a few other are very very good,but that like me claiming kung fi is good because Bruce lee did it, for people to claim its good for self defence, then it has to be good for all bjjers, not just a few, if they can't all beat a 300lbs monster, then a vids of a few people doing so are meaningless as proof of its effectiveness.
> 
> yes i. Know it's impossible to prove scientific ,which makes peoples claims, that its been scientifically proven to work compl
> 
> they would have to win more than the stastictical averages to show bjj, was better than nothing, a good untrained fighter will won close to a100% of street alterccationsif they arnt better than that?




Does the man on the street know how to get to and apply chokes and arm bars?


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 11, 2018)

Does he know how to escape them too? Because the average person usually get away with just hitting as hard as they can with their right in wide haymakers.

Is that  effective when i can stop that and get into an arm bar using bjj? 

A normal car is effective until it comes up against a NASCAR then i cant compete.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> no, let's not get involve in your anacdotes as being scientific proof.
> 
> ok, every days close to a 100% of fights that happen all over the world are won by people with no formal training, to show bjj is more effective than no formal training, you'd need to show that bjj had a better, ie more or less 100% success rate in self defence, can you do that


That's just getting really silly. Using the same logic, we could argue that every day close to 100% of fights are lost  by people with no formal training. Therefore to show BJJ is more effective than no formal training, you would only need to show that BJJ practitioners lose less than 100% of the time.

Let's try to propose a more reasonable test for whether a given course of training (whether in BJJ, DL, or anything else) is more effective than another approach (no training, a different martial art, weightlifting, whatever) for developing fighting ability.

(We'll leave aside the issue of "self-defense" until we can decide what exactly that means. Does it mean fending off a gang of armed attackers? Does it mean knowing not to mouth off to the gang and so avoiding the attack in the first place? There's a huge amount which could fall under that category.)

To simplify matters we'll postulate an unarmed fight between two people which progresses to the point where there is a clear winner. We can expand the test later to cover other scenarios once we have the basic outline down.

Given this fight between two people, if we assigned opponents randomly and know nothing about the matchups ahead of time, then a given individual has a 50% chance to be victorious going into a particular fight. That victory could be determined by a number of factors - size, strength, speed, mental toughness, killer instinct, experience, skill, age, health, tactical advantages (surprise, etc), or just dumb luck. If you want to reduce severe mismatches, you could pair up opponents based on rough equality in one or more of those factors (weight classes, age groups, etc).

To test whether a certain course of training is an improvement over no training, you would need to take a group of individuals (preferably assigned at random), give them the training, and then put them through a series of fights with opponents who have no training and see whether they win more than 50% of the time against those non-trained opponents. To be absolutely confident that the results aren't a statistical fluke, you'll need to a fair number of tests and run a statistical analysis.

You could reduce the potential confounding effects of non-training factors by matching opponents up by weight class, age, gender, etc. Alternatively, if you wanted to test your trained fighters against untrained opponents who have a significant advantage in some other factor (such as size), you could establish that the effect size of your training is impressively large.

Of course, laying this all out begins to show why high-quality scientific testing of martial arts training is difficult. We don't get to randomly assign subjects to a training protocol - we get the students who decide to sign up and train on their own accord. We don't get to randomly assign opponents - we get whoever is available and willing.

A more practical approach is a longitudinal study. For a given individual who starts training, see how well they can handle fighting an opponents of a certain challenge level at the beginning of their training, then see how well they do against comparable opponents a couple of years in. The test here is not "training A is better than training B" but rather "individual A is better after having trained than they were beforehand." It's still not foolproof, because you can't prove that the later opponents are precisely equal in ability to the earlier ones, but you can make a reasonable estimate.


----------



## pdg (Jun 11, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> A normal car is effective until it comes up against a NASCAR then i cant compete.



Yes you can, just turn right


----------



## drop bear (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> yes i did, perhaps not as you wished,
> 
> its now gone full circle, bjj has only been tested against other bjjers and not at all fir self defence,
> so both systems are untested for self defence, your anecdotes don't count as a scientific test



Tested for self defence is a red herring. As you can't test for self defence without anecdotes.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> If you train consistently, your gains will not Be consistant, they will vary week on week, some weeks you will make no gain at all,Some times you won't be as strong as last week, some times quite a lot, But it will always vary,until eventually you stop making gains at all, that is the very dDefinition of inconsistent,



You are not assessing gains properly. As week by week is not very accurate. Start looking longer term.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> But there's no evidence that bjj, is better than no training at all for self defence. , so that's a zero foR bjj,aswell



But there is evidence that BJJ is better than no training in competition.

And there is no evidence that anything is anything in self defence. Which is why people go there when they don't like the results of evidence that actually exists.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm utterly befuddled, can someone assist please?
> 
> Is the argument that KFM/DL is no good, or is it good?
> 
> ...



The argument ultimately is there is no way of telling the practical capability of anything. Because he can't find a way to process data.

The concept taken to its extreme is nothing is proven until it is tested an infinite amount of times. Or like a school science experiment someone will always screw it up.

Of course people do process data. And make stuff work. And Jojo probably manages to function by relying on these concepts.

As do all of us.

Scientific Proof Is A Myth


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Does the man on the street know how to get to and apply chokes and arm bars?


everyone knows how to choke,someone, its not a  ninja secret


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The argument ultimately is there is no way of telling the practical capability of anything. Because he can't find a way to process data.
> 
> The concept taken to its extreme is nothing is proven until it is tested an infinite amount of times. Or like a school science experiment someone will always screw it up.
> 
> ...


give me some DATA and il process it,the issue is rather I'm not accepting wild claim with no data what so ever


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> But there is evidence that BJJ is better than no training in competition.
> 
> And there is no evidence that anything is anything in self defence. Which is why people go there when they don't like the results of evidence that actually exists.


but self defence is the topic under discussion,or rather defence lab and their self defence program and why or why not bjj is better or not, arguing its better in competition is irrelevant, unless they will let you have a broken bottle or one of Those.  Dl rings


----------



## drop bear (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> give me some DATA and il process it,the issue is rather I'm not accepting wild claim with no data what so ever



Like you came up with your 50% result?


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You are not assessing gains properly. As week by week is not very accurate. Start looking longer term.


to be consistent  gains you need to gain consistently, the moment you don't gain then your gains are inconsistent??????


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> The graces and a few other are very very good,but that like me claiming kung fi is good because Bruce lee did it, for people to claim its good for self defence, then it has to be good for all bjjers, not just a few, if they can't all beat a 300lbs monster, then a vids of a few people doing so are meaningless as proof of its effectiveness.



Let's rephrase that ...

Assuming that a given course of training has any beneficial results at all, then it's a reasonable bet that the magnitude of the effect is roughly proportional to the time and effort put into that training. Mike Tyson could fight better than someone who had only boxed for a couple of years. Royce Gracie could fight better than a casual BJJ hobbyist.

The questions are:

1) How much output (in terms of improved fighting ability) does the average person get for a given amount of input (time and effort spent training in a given training regimen)?

2) How does that output to input ratio compare to other forms of investment in fighting ability (lifting weights, training a different martial art, walking into a rough bar and running your mouth towards the toughest guys there, etc)?

3) For someone who is only willing and able to put in hobbyist levels of time and effort, is the resulting improvement in fighting ability noticeable? If so, how much does it take to see the results?

I've mentioned the difficulty in making a high-quality scientific assessment of these questions, so I'll answer based on my own 37 years of experience in a wide variety of martial arts. Call it anecdotal if you will, but's it what I have to work with.

1) Most forms of martial arts training, done consistently - even those I would  currently regard as low-quality - will provide _some _improvement to an individuals fighting ability, compared to doing nothing. It may not be a large improvement. It may not be as useful as dedicated strength training or actual experience in street fights, but eventually there is a noticeable improvement even for hobbyists.

2) Training which includes free-form working against resistance, significant contact, encountering failure, and operating under stress (for example, boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai, Kyokushin Karate, Sambo, etc) produces a much higher output to input ratio than training which does not. Most of the time I would also rate the results of this training as better than time spent just strength training, although I can list scenarios where I would suggest strength training as providing more bang for the buck.)

3) For a casual hobbyist (which I'll define for the moment as someone training maybe 3 hours per week at non-extreme levels of intensity), I would say that an individual with average natural ability studying an art which has a solid technical base with my preferred model of training (listed in #2 above) will normally start to see significant improvements inside of six months. That doesn't mean they'll be beating opponents twice their size or possessing remarkable natural attributes. It just means that their performance against someone who has the same physical attributes but no training will be reliably well above 50%. To defeat someone with significant physical advantages will take longer. For opponents above a certain level, the student may never get to that level with a casual hobbyist level of training. On the other hand, results are proportional, so they may be able to reach the point of beating someone 50% larger without devoting their whole lives to training like a Gracie.

For someone whose training regiment does not include the elements I mentioned, it will take longer to produce noticeable, reliable results in a real fight. Maybe after a couple of years you could tell the difference.

As a side note - you mentioned attributes as important to the outcome of a fight. I am of the opinion that while technique is important it is typically secondary to attributes. Good training should improve a student's attributes such as strength, endurance, flexibility, speed, balance, kinesthetic awareness, mental toughness,  situational awareness, timing, calmness under pressure, controlled aggression, good tactical instincts, and more. Learning just the techniques of an art without developing those attributes will lead to subpar results.


----------



## pdg (Jun 11, 2018)

Just as @Tony Dismukes did, I'll draw a conclusion based on my own experience (which could also be taken as anecdotal).

Since I'm not going to include a few schoolyard scraps, I'll start from age 16.

For almost 23 years, absolutely zero training served me perfectly well - anything that may resemble self defence never escalated past the point of no return, the couple of times an aggressive attitude may have led to physical fighting I defused/walked away and nothing happened.

For a little over 2 years now I've been training TKD, and nothing has happened.

On that basis and only using the available evidence (albeit skewed by an 11.5:1 elapsed time ratio) one could conclude that TKD is no more or less effective than no training at all...


See, that's the thing with evidence for or against proving or disproving efficacy of self defence techniques - it's essentially impossible to introduce any semblance of a control factor.

How can it be said that a person who used XYZ system to emerge victorious from an SD situation would not have prevailed without that training, or whether a different technique would have served just as well, or would maybe not have been in that situation in the first place?


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> Just as @Tony Dismukes did, I'll draw a conclusion based on my own experience (which could also be taken as anecdotal).
> 
> Since I'm not going to include a few schoolyard scraps, I'll start from age 16.
> 
> ...


Right ok, so why are the bjj, folk claiming their is scientific evidence that bjj, improves your self defence, 

You've bought in to tkw, and are assuming it has improved yourself defence abilitirs, it could just as easily have made you worse, with luck you will never find out


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Let's rephrase that ...
> 
> Assuming that a given course of training has any beneficial results at all, then it's a reasonable bet that the magnitude of the effect is roughly proportional to the time and effort put into that training. Mike Tyson could fight better than someone who had only boxed for a couple of years. Royce Gracie could fight better than a casual BJJ hobbyist.
> 
> ...


Fine words butter no parsnips, DATA For self defence use? I've beaten people 50% larger with no bjj, but I'm not using that to sell the benefits of jofu


----------



## jobo (Jun 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Like you came up with your 50% result?


That's not data, that's just an irrUtable fact, if you don't accept that then refute it with some data,


----------



## pdg (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> Right ok, so why are the bjj, folk claiming their is scientific evidence that bjj, improves your self defence,
> 
> You've bought in to tkw, and are assuming it has improved yourself defence abilitirs, it could just as easily have made you worse, with luck you will never find out



I'm not assuming it's improved or degraded any self defence abilities I may or may not have had previously.

I can say that if I'm put into a situation where I might get hit I now stand a better chance than before I started - I can say that because sparring.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> That's not data, that's just an irrUtable fact, if you don't accept that then refute it with some data,



Lol. That everyone refuted.

OK. So say I wanted to look at my coach using just data. (Now he is MMA not BJJ) I can.

And you will notice he has a greater than 50% success rate.

Anton Zafir - MMA Fighter Profile, Ranking - FightMatrix.com

Now say I wanted to get any information at all on defence lab. I can't.

And before I can look at works for self defence. I really need to start with works at all anywhere.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> to be consistent  gains you need to gain consistently, the moment you don't gain then your gains are inconsistent??????



No the result just have to reflect the method. So if I lift weight and get stronger. I can say lifting weight makes me stronger.

If that happens for enough people then the result is consistent.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> but self defence is the topic under discussion,or rather defence lab and their self defence program and why or why not bjj is better or not, arguing its better in competition is irrelevant, unless they will let you have a broken bottle or one of Those.  Dl rings



You know those rings are just a con to get you buy **** right?

The techniques associated with them rely on pain response, which is very very unreliable.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

You realize DL is based on faulty premise right?

If you turtle you are going to get uppercutted.
They train frames is because its an easy way to teach someone.
The very first day they use techniques to make you want to join defense lab.

Its called the 4 man box its the cornerstone of the training methodology.

Put a person in the middle , then put 4 people on each compass point with focus pads on.

The person in the middle may defend, no striking allowed.

The only way you can survive this drill is to frame.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm not assuming it's improved or degraded any self defence abilities I may or may not have had previously.
> 
> I can say that if I'm put into a situation where I might get hit I now stand a better chance than before I started - I can say that because sparring.


So you are assuming it's made your self defence capabilities better, ok maybe that a reasonable assumption, but a person who takes up nearly any sport, could reasonably make the same assumption, because of fitness, improveD reaction time, better ballance etc, so your no more certain than someone who plays ping,Pong of your increased ability ?


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You know those rings are just a con to get you buy **** right?
> 
> The techniques associated with them rely on pain response, which is very very unreliable.


Arm bars rely on pain compliance and you seem very fond of those


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You realize DL is based on faulty premise right?
> 
> If you turtle you are going to get uppercutted.
> They train frames is because its an easy way to teach someone.
> ...


Well no, your argument is based on a false premise, fighting 4people is extremely difficult, there's a very very high chance you will lose,if you canT escape then covering up to limit the damage is a reasonable strAtegy, if you tried to use bjj, on one of them, arm bar, choke hold, mount etc, then the other three will pummel, you, 
Just the same as that vid you keep going on about.

Bjj, is A lot less than useless in those circumstances, if dl , is useless it's still better than bjj,As you limited the damage. Upper cuts are not a common punch in the untrained, as such they a) won't happen or b) will carry little power of they do, much better than a Hay maker, which most people can make work


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Lol. That everyone refuted.
> 
> OK. So say I wanted to look at my coach using just data. (Now he is MMA not BJJ) I can.
> 
> ...


Perhaps a quick rehash is required, the claim your trying to support, bjj, is better than defence lab at SELF DEFENCE because of science.

So that needs you to provided the science you claim, in a self defence context.

We have established that bjj, competition is inadequate for that purpose, why do you think mma, is any better foR this,?


----------



## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Perhaps a quick rehash is required, the claim your trying to support, bjj, is better than defence lab at SELF DEFENCE because of science.
> 
> So that needs you to provided the science you claim, in a self defence context.
> 
> We have established that bjj, competition is inadequate for that purpose, why do you think mma, is any better foR this,?



Because before we can determine what works for self defence. We need to determine if it works at all anywhere. We can determine that with BJJ or MMA. then all we have to work out what self defence reflect circumstances in competition.

And we can gain a more accurate model. 

From there we can start adding anecdotes and expert opinion.

Then we can take all that back to the lab and train those concepts live with resistance.

And have a real self defence system based on scientific method.

We can't start with what works for self defence. Shooting people with lazer beam eyes would be freaking awesome for self defence just a pitty it is not possible.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Because before we can determine what works for self defence. We need to determine if it works at all anywhere. We can determine that with BJJ or MMA. then all we have to work out what self defence reflect circumstances in competition.
> 
> And we can gain a more accurate model.
> 
> ...


So are you now saying the science that bjj,works in self defence DOESN't exist and you will have to go away and develop it ? Ok we can agree on that


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Arm bars rely on pain compliance and you seem very fond of those




You break a person structure with the bar, you are relying on controlling or breaking the limb not pain.

You are also ignoring my points, all of the time and its becoming annoying.

They sell the rings and "defensive jewelery" to scam money out of you, pretty sure the UK laws say that using those is assault with an offensive weapon.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> So are you now saying the science that bjj,works in self defence DOESN't exist and you will have to go away and develop it ? Ok we can agree on that



Well no. Working at all is better than not working at all. So it is a lot further along the progression of working for self defence than DL.

DL needs to be developed further so it can reach the effectiveness of BJJ. Then both systems can use further developement.

You have your progressions out of order.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Well no. Working at all is better than not working at all. So it is a lot further along the progression of working for self defence than DL.
> 
> DL needs to be developed further so it can reach the effectiveness of BJJ. Then both systems can use further developement.
> 
> You have your progressions out of order.


For a moment there I though your started being rational.
Bjj, is proven, with a 50%success rate to work against other bjj,ers, wing chUnwill work against other wing chuners, fighting with a cardboard tube will work if your opponent can only use a card Board s tube. Saying it works in very limited circumstances with a heavily defIned rule set, is not a good indexation of its likely usefulness in self defence,


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> For a moment there I though your started being rational.
> Bjj, is proven, with a 50%success rate to work against other bjj,ers, wing chUnwill work against other wing chuners, fighting with a cardboard tube will work if your opponent can only use a card Board s tube. Saying it works in very limited circumstances with a heavily defIned rule set, is not a good indexation of its likely usefulness in self defence,




You know the ground work of DL is a very very watered down version of BJJ right?

OR would you now no longer prefer DL now i point out that Andy norman is a purple belt under Rigan


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You know the ground work of DL is a very very watered down version of BJJ right?
> 
> OR would you now no longer prefer DL now i point out that Andy norman is a purple belt under Rigan


Yo say watered down others might say modified for non no refereed fighting, u


----------



## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> For a moment there I though your started being rational.
> Bjj, is proven, with a 50%success rate to work against other bjj,ers, wing chUnwill work against other wing chuners, fighting with a cardboard tube will work if your opponent can only use a card Board s tube. Saying it works in very limited circumstances with a heavily defIned rule set, is not a good indexation of its likely usefulness in self defence,



Exept there is no evidence of DL working in any environment.

There is a 0% success rate of DL working anywhere.  So even your incorrect conclusion of a 50% success is still 50% better.

And then we can go to individual BJJ competitors who have a much greater than 50%. DL still being at zero. Then we can find the competitor that compete in other styles like MMA and DL is still zero. We can even see on youtube BJJ working in self defence. And DL still is zero for evidence of anything.

Even the guy fighing with the cardboard tube has more evidence behind it than DL at this stage.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You break a person structure with the bar, you are relying on controlling or breaking the limb not pain.
> 
> You are also ignoring my points, all of the time and its becoming annoying.
> 
> They sell the rings and "defensive jewelery" to scam money out of you, pretty sure the UK laws say that using those is assault with an offensive weapon.


There no such thing in UK law as assault with an offensive weapon,, there is Wounding with a weapon, but that's any weapon, even aCard board tube, which will always have the legally specified defence of SELF defence. 

If wearing them is carrying an offensive weapon, ( which is an offence) is debatable, but possibly so


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yo say watered down others might say modified for non no refereed fighting, u



The mount escape relies on pain response. Its watered down, you can escape a mount without doing that.

I dont know how many times i have to keep telling you I trained KFM/Defense lab FOR YEARS. 

Find me one video of defense lab sparring or being used in a street fight , you wont.






I have provided BJJ, you provide defense lab, i can wait.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> There no such thing in UK law as assault with an offensive weapon,, there is Wounding with a weapon, but that's any weapon, even aCard board tube, which will always have the legally specified defence of SELF defence.
> 
> If wearing them is carrying an offensive weapon, ( which is an offence) is debatable, but possibly so



The brackets/necklaces they sell are taught to be used as knuckle dusters/flails.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> The brackets/necklaces they sell are taught to be used as knuckle dusters/flails.


SO, there's nothing wrong with wearing item that could be used as a weapon, wearing things that can be proved are designed as a,weapon could be problematic


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> The mount escape relies on pain response. Its watered down, you can escape a mount without doing that.
> 
> I dont know how many times i have to keep telling you I trained KFM/Defense lab FOR YEARS.
> 
> ...


You were claiming you had scientific evidence that jbb, is better for self defence than dl, now you've resorted to the lowest common denominator and started posting you tube vids,,,,, that do not prove that point, and worse you are trying to shift the burden of proof to me, you made the claim, you prove it


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> SO, there's nothing wrong with wearing item that could be used as a weapon, wearing things that can be proved are designed as a,weapon could be problematic



It is designed as a weapon, there are even videos showing Andy using them as a weapon, a prosecution can easily prove you intended to use it as a weapon by the fact you trained using it as such. 

Defence Lab Shop - Defence Lab


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

What is "balistic self defense"?

Where is the power from that ascending hammer coming from? 

Why do they always use such janky camera angles when using the suits?

Why dont they show the technique against resisting opponents? 

Why is Ruben just standing there?







*bal·lis·tic*
*/bəˈlistik/*
adjective

1. relating to projectiles or their flight.
2. moving under the force of gravity only.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Exept there is no evidence of DL working in any environment.
> 
> There is a 0% success rate of DL working anywhere.  So even your incorrect conclusion of a 50% success is still 50% better.
> 
> ...


There no evidence that you know of,,,but what you need to prove is but is better at self defence. You can't just take an absence of evidence, had you even bothered to research it, which you havent, as proof bjj, is better. That's poor science.

And the claim was science would prove blk is better


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> It is designed as a weapon, there are even videos showing Andy using them as a weapon, a prosecution can easily prove you intended to use it as a weapon by the fact you trained using it as such.
> 
> Defence Lab Shop - Defence Lab


Well no that's not the actual law, proving intent is very difficult, unless you admit to it or you threaten someone with it. And how exactly would they prove you had trained with it, unless Andy have evidence against you and you could be training to use it in your own home, where offensive weapons are by no means illegal


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> What is "balistic self defense"?
> 
> Where is the power from that ascending hammer coming from?
> 
> ...


???????


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well no that's not the actual law, proving intent is very difficult, unless you admit to it or you threaten someone with it. And how exactly would they prove you had trained with it, unless Andy have evidence against you and you could be training to use it in your own home, where offensive weapons are by no means illegal



Because just like a knuckle duster its still a weapon, is a knuckleduster on a chain still a weapon?


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> ???????



Do you not notice all the video is compliant ********.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Because just like a knuckle duster its still a weapon, is a knuckleduster on a chain still a weapon?


No no and no.
The laws on weapons are badly written, from the police's point I view, and really open from the public's point I view.

The police have to pROVe, that is was designed as a weapon, or that this string of beads are more dangerous than any other necklass, it's clearly not as dangerous as a,20 oz gold chain, or that you intended to use it as a weapon, which is very difficult as they can't read your mind. If they cant prove either of those beyond reasonable doubt, you are free to go.

I've had this discussion several times about walking about with a base ball bat,


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> No no and no.
> The laws on weapons are badly written, from the police's point I view, and really open from the public's point I view.
> 
> The police have to pROVe, that is was designed as a weapon, or that this string of beads are more dangerous than any other necklass, it's clearly not as dangerous as a,20 oz gold chain, or that you intended to use it as a weapon, which is very difficult as they can't read your mind. If they cant prove either of those beyond reasonable doubt, you are free to go.
> ...




They call it self defense jewellery. Its marketed as a weapon.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

https://scontent.fbhx3-1.fna.fbcdn....=b1a6ad1365d21f56671dfe7eac3816ed&oe=5BB4B876


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> They call it self defense jewellery. Its marketed as a weapon.


Well that's besides the point, if I get a pretty standard umbrella and market it as a tactical defence umbrella, it's still an umbrella no more dangerous than any other umbrella so it's legal, the same then is true of beads or heavily studded belts or belts made out of motor bike chain etc


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Do you not notice all the video is compliant ********.


It's demo vid, all demo vids are compliant, if the guys hits you in the head with his knuckles duster then there is no demo vid


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> https://scontent.fbhx3-1.fna.fbcdn....=b1a6ad1365d21f56671dfe7eac3816ed&oe=5BB4B876


???????


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> I've beaten people 50% larger with no bjj, but I'm not using that to sell the benefits of jofu


If those people were also trained fighters and you documented your victories on video, then you might have some interested students. If you trained a dozen other people in jofu to the point where they also defeated larger, trained opponents and documented those fights, then you could almost certainly get some traction in selling your art. Go for it!


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Arm bars rely on pain compliance and you seem very fond of those


If you rely on pain compliance for your arm bars, then you're doing them wrong.

A properly applied arm bar does structural damage. First ligaments start popping, then the joint dislocates. In extreme cases bones can be broken. In sparring, we tap to avoid that result. In a street fight you can't trust an attacker to tap and accept defeat, so you just damage the limb and move on.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You break a person structure with the bar, you are relying on controlling or breaking the limb not pain.
> 
> You are also ignoring my points, all of the time and its becoming annoying.
> 
> They sell the rings and "defensive jewelery" to scam money out of you, pretty sure the UK laws say that using those is assault with an offensive weapon.





Tony Dismukes said:


> If you rely on pain compliance for your arm bars, then you're doing them wrong.
> 
> A properly applied arm bar does structural damage. First ligaments start popping, then the joint dislocates. In extreme cases bones can be broken. In sparring, we tap to avoid that result. In a street fight you can't trust an attacker to tap and accept defeat, so you just damage the limb and move on.


So popping ligaments isn't painful ?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> I dont, no one has mounted me( in a fight) since I was 8 years old, so it seems a completely pointless thing to worry about , I'm far more concerned with how not to end up lay on my back with some sAt on me


There are lots of videos of actual fights and attacks that end up with someone in mount. Just because nobody has ever gotten me in one doesn't mean it can't happen. If we took that logic, most folks should never train any self-defense, since most haven't been attacked or in a fight since elementary school. Mind you, training to avoid being in mount is arguably wiser, but that doesn't change the logic dramatically.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> yes i did, perhaps not as you wished,
> 
> its now gone full circle, bjj has only been tested against other bjjers and not at all fir self defence,
> so both systems are untested for self defence, your anecdotes don't count as a scientific test


Okay, so there's one statement in there that is fully incorrect, Jobo. BJJ has been frequently tested against non-BJJ folks. Early MMA had that. Add in all the challenge matches the Gracies used early in getting a name for the art. Today, BJJ is not going to get much testing against folks with no BJJ experience...but that's hardly making the test easier.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> for people to claim its good for self defence, then it has to be good for all bjjers, not just a few, if they can't all beat a 300lbs monster, then a vids of a few people doing so are meaningless as proof of its effectiveness


Poppycock.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> There are lots of videos of actual fights and attacks that end up with someone in mount. Just because nobody has ever gotten me in one doesn't mean it can't happen. If we took that logic, most folks should never train any self-defense, since most haven't been attacked or in a fight since elementary school. Mind you, training to avoid being in mount is arguably wiser, but that doesn't change the logic dramatically.


But most arts don't teach it, so if the lack of us a problem with dl, it is so with all( most) the striking arts.
And it's fair to say that if you end up with someone say on you, something went very wrong with what came before


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> to be consistent  gains you need to gain consistently, the moment you don't gain then your gains are inconsistent??????


We can make any human gain "consistency" look inconsistent by simply using too small a time period for measurement. We know that certain exercises consistently build muscle. But not really, if we measured muscle gain hour by hour.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, so there's one statement in there that is fully incorrect, Jobo. BJJ has been frequently tested against non-BJJ folks. Early MMA had that. Add in all the challenge matches the Gracies used early in getting a name for the art. Today, BJJ is not going to get much testing against folks with no BJJ experience...but that's hardly making the test easier.


Your always late to the party so I have to repeat points I've already made.

You can't take the gracias as a measure of bjj, any more than you can Bruce Lee for king fu, you need some sort of median to judge it off, but doesn't not get used( mu ch) in mma, with out it being augmented with some kicking punching and defence skills, so it's not bjj, and anyway those who have progressed it as far as mmA aRe not typical bjjer,

If they are operating in weight classes and no one is attacking them with a chair or even a punch, then it's carry over to sd, is unproven


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> So popping ligaments isn't painful ?



Skin tears
Torn ligament


One causes next to no lasting injury, one will likely require physical therapy.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> So popping ligaments isn't painful ?


For most people it is, but the technique doesn’t rely on them complying due to that pain. “Pain compliance” - your words.

If you break someone's arm and they are too hyped up on adrenaline or drugs to give up, then their ability to use that limb effectively will still be compromised.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> For most people it is, but the technique doesn’t rely on them complying due to that pain. “Pain compliance” - your words.
> 
> If you break someone's arm and they are too hyped up on adrenaline or drugs to give up, then their ability to use that limb effectively will still be compromised.


Do they actually break arms in bjj, or do they use pain to get a submission ?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Arm bars rely on pain compliance and you seem very fond of those


Arm bars can do more than just cause pain. They can damage joints. Not only is that a larger pain (so more likely to be effective for pain compliance), but if the compliance doesn't occur, that arm is significantly less effective. Much better than just relying on the pain (I had an early training partner who took a guy's shoulder completely out of joint and the guy kept fighting, apparently not really noticing the torn ligaments at the time).


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Your always late to the party so I have to repeat points I've already made.
> 
> You can't take the gracias as a measure of bjj, any more than you can Bruce Lee for king fu, you need some sort of median to judge it off, but doesn't not get used( mu ch) in mma, with out it being augmented with some kicking punching and defence skills, so it's not bjj, and anyway those who have progressed it as far as mmA aRe not typical bjjer,
> 
> If they are operating in weight classes and no one is attacking them with a chair or even a punch, then it's carry over to sd, is unproven



Gracie combatives coveres punch and kick defence.

What do I gain doing defense lab ground system instead?


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Skin tears
> Torn ligament
> 
> 
> One causes next to no lasting injury, one will likely require physical therapy.


I thought he was cutting them up bad with his ninja ring ? , is mayor lacerations to the leCk not a reasonably lasting injury, 

How many actual ligaments have you ripped in bJj, ?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Do they actually break arms in bjj, or do they use pain to get a submission ?


If the recipient of the arm bar doesn't tap and doesn't escape from the arm bar, then they are prone to getting their arm broken. (Actually the more common injury is a torn ligament. Achieving a full break takes really good technique.)

Most people tap rather than take the injury and have to spend weeks out of commission while they heal up, but there's always someone who has to learn their lesson the hard way.

Most experienced BJJ practitioners will not give up in a serious match just due to pain. There has to be the threat of real injury.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Arm bars can do more than just cause pain. They can damage joints. Not only is that a larger pain (so more likely to be effective for pain compliance), but if the compliance doesn't occur, that arm is significantly less effective. Much better than just relying on the pain (I had an early training partner who took a guy's shoulder completely out of joint and the guy kept fighting, apparently not really noticing the torn ligaments at the time).


So larger pain is good, smaller pain is bad?


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If the recipient of the arm bar doesn't tap and doesn't escape from the arm bar, then they are prone to getting their arm broken. (Actually the more common injury is a torn ligament. Achieving a full break takes really good technique.)
> 
> Most people tap rather than take the injury and have to spend weeks out of commission while they heal up, but there's always someone who has to learn their lesson the hard way.
> 
> Most experienced BJJ practitioners will not give up in a serious match just due to pain. There has to be the threat of real injury.


So they tap as Pain compliance, yet strangely it's not a pain compliance technique!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> But most arts don't teach it, so if the lack of us a problem with dl, it is so with all( most) the striking arts.
> And it's fair to say that if you end up with someone say on you, something went very wrong with what came before


I actually consider it a problem if any curriculum doesn't teach at least one (preferably two) effective, technical (not pain) mount escapes, if that school's teaching is intended for self-defense. And, yes, if they end up on top, something went wrong. And things sometimes go wrong, regardless of skill level. When my legs are being crappy, my chances of ending up on my back go way up. Same on poor surfaces.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> So larger pain is good, smaller pain is bad?


Where pain is being used, bigger pain is more likely to be effective, but damage is more effective than just pain. Put the two together, and you get another advantage.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I actually consider it a problem if any curriculum doesn't teach at least one (preferably two) effective, technical (not pain) mount escapes, if that school's teaching is intended for self-defense. And, yes, if they end up on top, something went wrong. And things sometimes go wrong, regardless of skill level. When my legs are being crappy, my chances of ending up on my back go way up. Same on poor surfaces.


But they do teach an anti mount technique, the complaint is it not very good rather than that font have one, but then bjj, think anything but bjj, isn't very good


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> So they tap as Pain compliance, yet strangely it's not a pain compliance technique!


In training (and competition), we comply by pain. That same pain is unreliable under heavy adrenal load (both fight and flight responses).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> But they do teach an anti mount technique, the complaint is it not very good rather than that font have one, but then bjj, think anything but bjj, isn't very good


Yeah, that's why I included the caveat that it must be technically effective. Pain compliance isn't all that useful. Most pain-only techniques I can resist pretty nicely, and I'm no tough guy. I've had partners who - even in casual training - simply didn't respond to the level of pain deliverable with most pain compliance. They'd tap out to avoid injury (though I've seen more than one neglect to do so, and receive the actual injury), but not because of any pain level.


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Where pain is being used, bigger pain is more likely to be effective, but damage is more effective than just pain. Put the two together, and you get another advantage.


But the cutting up ring,( are you actually follow the debate) causes both damage and pain, it's a pain compliance technique, as are arm bars, you can say arM e bars are more effective, but you can Deny that the other is a both painful and damaging


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, that's why I included the caveat that it must be technically effective. Pain compliance isn't all that useful. Most pain-only techniques I can resist pretty nicely, and I'm no tough guy. I've had partners who - even in casual training - simply didn't respond to the level of pain deliverable with most pain compliance. They'd tap out to avoid injury (though I've seen more than one neglect to do so, and receive the actual injury), but not because of any pain level.


We haven't established it's not effective, just bjj, ers think they should do something else


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> I thought he was cutting them up bad with his ninja ring ? , is mayor lacerations to the leCk not a reasonably lasting injury,
> 
> How many actual ligaments have you ripped in bJj, ?




They aren't actually sharp you can gouge and tear with them.

But why?   When I can use a technique that doesn't require a ring.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> But the cutting up ring,( are you actually follow the debate) causes both damage and pain, it's a pain compliance technique, as are arm bars, you can say arM e bars are more effective, but you can Deny that the other is a both painful and damaging



It can't cause any damage that would stop anyone.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> So they tap as Pain compliance, yet strangely it's not a pain compliance technique!


Nope. They tap to prevent injury. If the technique only causes pain and does not have the potential to cause real damage, then they will typically not tap.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

(Replied to the same post twice.)


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> We haven't established it's not effective, just bjj, ers think they should do something else


I can establish pretty quickly that it's not effective without a compliant partner. I'm not a BJJ'er, and I think they should do something else.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> But the cutting up ring,( are you actually follow the debate) causes both damage and pain, it's a pain compliance technique, as are arm bars, you can say arM e bars are more effective, but you can Deny that the other is a both painful and damaging


Cutting up skin doesn't usually cause damage that affects capacity. Torn ligaments do. In both cases, the pain might be useful, but can't be counted on.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I can establish pretty quickly that it's not effective without a compliant partner. I'm not a BJJ'er, and I think they should do something else.



If you watch the video I linked earlier today you can see what I mean when I say they force techniques to work with the framing.


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Nope. They tap to prevent injury. If the technique only causes pain and does not have the potential to cause real damage, then they will typically not tap.


No they tap to prevent more pain,


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Cutting up skin doesn't usually cause damage that affects capacity. Torn ligaments do. In both cases, the pain might be useful, but can't be counted on.


So it's a pain compliance technique, it wasn't me that said it was, but it's the only true thing veritas, has said so give him credit, if you don't think it is take it up with him


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> They aren't actually sharp you can gouge and tear with them.
> 
> 
> veritasAequitas said:
> ...


 you can say the same for any weapon, yet they seemSurprisingly popular


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I can establish pretty quickly that it's not effective without a compliant partner. I'm not a BJJ'er, and I think they should do something else.


But Andy who runs dl, is a bjj, master and he disagrees with you, ,perhaps he knows best?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> No they tap to prevent more pain,


I was wondering why in the world you would have the confidence to claim such a thing, given that you have zero experience with the matter at hand and you are talking to someone with decades of experience on the subject.

Then I realized why this conversation seemed so familiar.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> But Andy who runs dl, is a bjj, master and he disagrees with you, ,perhaps he knows best?



He's not a master he's a purple belt.

White
Blue
Purple
Brown 
Black <-professor
Red/coral <-master


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> He's not a master he's a purple belt.
> 
> White
> Blue
> ...


And what are you ?


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I was wondering why in the world you would have the confidence to claim such a thing, given that you have zero experience with the matter at hand and you are talking to someone with decades of experience on the subject.
> 
> Then I realized why this conversation seemed so familiar.


I have considerable experience in pain


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> And what are you ?


White in bjj purple in DL doesn't make a difference not teaching


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> So it's a pain compliance technique, it wasn't me that said it was, but it's the only true thing veritas, has said so give him credit, if you don't think it is take it up with him


Nope. A pain compliance technique relies solely upon pain. Many destructions can be used as pain-compliance techniques by altering the angle a bit (think finger bends), but they are less reliable as pain compliance than as destructions. Some (larger joints, mostly) can also be applied slowly enough in competition for folks to tap out before they are injured - whether they feel the pain, or not.



jobo said:


> No they tap to prevent more pain,


So, you think the pain is more important to them than the potential tear/dislocation/break?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> But Andy who runs dl, is a bjj, master and he disagrees with you, ,perhaps he knows best?


As I said, I can demonstrate pretty quickly. Doesn't matter how much BJJ he has (and purple certainly isn't "master") - that ground technique isn't applying much from BJJ.


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Nope. A pain compliance technique relies solely upon pain. Many destructions can be used as pain-compliance techniques by altering the angle a bit (think finger bends), but they are less reliable as pain compliance than as destructions. Some (larger joints, mostly) can also be applied slowly enough in competition for folks to tap out before they are injured - whether they feel the pain, or not.
> 
> 
> So, you think the pain is more important to them than the potential tear/dislocation/break?


Your making up your own rather silly definitions again, there are two qualifications to be pain compliance t
, one that he is in pain and two that he is compliant, if one or both of these is missing it's not pain compLiance , if both are present it clearly is,

Further it's impossible to cause enough pain to make someone complient, with out causing injury, someone with a broken arm, is going to be in quite a lot of pain and if you waddle his broken arm about will be reasonably compliant,


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 12, 2018)

This really seems to be a silly argument. I can only believe that someone arguing that BJJ doesn’t work has no experience with it. My anecdotal experience tells me that unless one person has considerable physical/outside advantages, the person with more training in BJJ can pretty well have their way with their opponent, assuming they don’t train only from a competition point of view (don’t consider strikes). 

I’ve trained for a little more than a year. I can defeat less experienced students probably 70-80% of the time, maybe more. I can sometimes survive with a blue belt, though I can never be sure how much they are allowing me to survive and how much is really me. When I roll with higher belts than that, they can do whatever they want to me and I’m helpless to stop them. 

Of course, DL has “lab” in the name, so it’s probably scientifically better. BJJ Lab would probably be scientifically superior to anything. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Your making up your own rather silly definitions again, there are two qualifications to be pain compliance t
> , one that he is in pain and two that he is compliant, if one or both of these is missing it's not pain compLiance , if both are present it clearly is,
> 
> Further it's impossible to cause enough pain to make someone complient, with out causing injury, someone with a broken arm, is going to be in quite a lot of pain and if you waddle his broken arm about will be reasonably compliant,




A  broken arm is a debilitating injury, its not the pain alone that stops using.

Skin tears are pain compliance there is no control or technical aspect if pain fails

An arm bar allows you to control and damage to limb to a point where its unusable due to injury.


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> A  broken arm is a debilitating injury, its not the pain alone that stops using.
> 
> Skin tears are pain compliance there is no control or technical aspect if pain fails
> 
> An arm bar allows you to control and damage to limb to a point where its unusable due to injury.


It's the pain alone that makes you complIent, and that the only thing Required to fit a reasonable definition,If pain compliance,


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> This really seems to be a silly argument. I can only believe that someone arguing that BJJ doesn’t work has no experience with it. My anecdotal experience tells me that unless one person has considerable physical/outside advantages, the person with more training in BJJ can pretty well have their way with their opponent, assuming they don’t train only from a competition point of view (don’t consider strikes).
> 
> I’ve trained for a little more than a year. I can defeat less experienced students probably 70-80% of the time, maybe more. I can sometimes survive with a blue belt, though I can never be sure how much they are allowing me to survive and how much is really me. When I roll with higher belts than that, they can do whatever they want to me and I’m helpless to stop them.
> 
> ...


Another fantisT, that just knows he can defend against all commers no matter how big strong or many just coz he can roll with a blue belt


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Another fantisT, that just knows he can defend against all commers no matter how big strong or many just coz he can roll with a blue belt



Can you? Have you ever thought its you thats the odd one out? Does an arm bar magically not work on you then? or a triangle choke?


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> It's the pain alone that makes you complIent, and that the only thing Required to fit a reasonable definition,If pain compliance,



No its immobilization and control of the limb that makes you compliant.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> There no evidence that you know of,,,but what you need to prove is but is better at self defence. You can't just take an absence of evidence, had you even bothered to research it, which you havent, as proof bjj, is better. That's poor science.
> 
> And the claim was science would prove blk is better



I can provide evidence that there is no evidence by not providing evidence. 

Here is all the evidence that DL works at all anywhere.




See nothing. I can't come up with something if there is nothing there. Sorry. Probably your job to come up with some evidence.

And so as BJJ has evidence and DL doesn't it makes BJJ better. Because working somewhere is better than working nowhere.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> So popping ligaments isn't painful ?



Regardless of your pain tolerance an arm bar will effect you structurally until it breaks. At which point still regardless of pain tolerance your arm may not work.


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> No its immobilization and control of the limb that makes you compliant.


No I'm pretty sure that waving your broken arm about makes you compliment


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Regardless of your pain tolerance an arm bar will effect you structurally until it breaks. At which point still regardless of pain tolerance your arm may not work.


But that doesn't make you complient, does it, it's pain that does that


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I can provide evidence that there is no evidence by not providing evidence.
> 
> Here is all the evidence that DL works at all anywhere.
> 
> ...


Not my job, yours ,What you means is there is no on you tube,,, have you interviewEd a selection of dL, members to see if there's any ? If not come back when you have,


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Can you? Have you ever thought its you thats the odd one out? Does an arm bar magically not work on you then? or a triangle choke?


Does being smashed over the head with a bar stool not magically work on you if your a bjj, white belt ?


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Does being smashed over the head with a bar stool not magically work if your a bjj, white belt ?



So thats a no then?


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Not my job, yours ,What you means is there is no on you tube,,, have you interviewEd a selection of dL, members to see if there's any ? If not come back when you have,




I am ex defense lab staff you fu*king dumbass, I've provided information that you keep deliberately ignoring.  Defense lab is like a cult you will not find an instructor that will give it anything but a shining review.


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> I am ex defense lab staff you fu*king dumbass, I've provided information that you keep deliberately ignoring.  Defense lab is like a cult you will not find an instructor that will give it anything but a shining review.


Did you use it to defend yourself ?


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Did you use it to defend yourself ?



Yes, it does not work outside of complaint drills against a skilled opponent. Its theoretically flawed, any good boxer will f&ck you up.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Your always late to the party so I have to repeat points I've already made.
> 
> You can't take the gracias as a measure of bjj, any more than you can Bruce Lee for king fu, you need some sort of median to judge it off, but doesn't not get used( mu ch) in mma, with out it being augmented with some kicking punching and defence skills, so it's not bjj, and anyway those who have progressed it as far as mmA aRe not typical bjjer,
> 
> If they are operating in weight classes and no one is attacking them with a chair or even a punch, then it's carry over to sd, is unproven



Not unproven. You still can't process data.

In self defence there is more than chair hitting. So we go back to our car theory. And practically your conclusions still don't make sense. So I get up in the morning start my car and go to work. I don't go to work 3 hours early because a meteor may have hit my car and it won't work.

Just because a meteor may strike my car and therefore show that nothing is ever really provable. Does not mean mean I can't function on the conclusions that are provable.

So I may be able to use the elements of BJJ in self defence. I could throw someone to the ground sit on them and put them in an armbar to successfully negate an attack. All of which I have proven by consistently achieving that result in training.

Same as I can start my car and go to work on all the non meteor days.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Not my job, yours ,What you means is there is no on you tube,,, have you interviewEd a selection of dL, members to see if there's any ? If not come back when you have,



So what you are saying is there is still no evidence DL works anywhere?

Is this like having to prove Santa clause doesn't exist?


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> But that doesn't make you complient, does it, it's pain that does that



Structurally compliant. The arm bar forces a position. And it hurts. 

Pain compliance would be where there is no structural compliance. So you grab my arm and I nipple cripple you until you let go.


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Not unproven. You still can't process data.
> 
> In self defence there is more than chair hitting. So we go back to our car theory. And practically your conclusions still don't make sense. So I get up in the morning start my car and go to work. I don't go to work 3 hours early because a meteor may have hit my car and it won't work.
> 
> ...


Well there bottle hitting knifes, pool cues, Multiple attackers and throwing brick.

You've only achieved that on other bjj, ers,, so that's all you can prove


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## pdg (Jun 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Is this like having to prove Santa clause doesn't exist?



Don't be silly, that'd be like trying to prove water isn't wet.

Who else sends out all the elves?


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Structurally compliant. The arm bar forces a position. And it hurts.
> 
> Pain compliance would be where there is no structural compliance. So you grab my arm and I nipple cripple you until you let go.


No pain compliance is why there is both pain and compliance,


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

pdg said:


> Don't be silly, that'd be like trying to prove water isn't wet.
> 
> Who else sends out all the elves?


You do not that wAter isn't wet don't you? It WETs your coat, but it's self is dry


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well there bottle hitting knifes, pool cues, Multiple attackers and throwing brick.
> 
> You've only achieved that on other bjj, ers,, so that's all you can prove


I've never had a brick thrown at me, therefore by your logic it doesn't happen.


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Yes, it does not work outside of complaint drills against a skilled opponent. Its theoretically flawed, any good boxer will f&ck you up.


So your just bITTeR as you couldNt understand it


----------



## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> I've never had a brick thrown at me, therefore by your logic it doesn't happen.


Pop down to Manchester .

How do you know onE hadn't been thrown at you and it missed ?


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

pdg said:


> Don't be silly, that'd be like trying to prove water isn't wet.
> 
> Who else sends out all the elves?



Thranduil.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> No pain compliance is why there is both pain and compliance,



Lol. No. Pain is what causes compliance. When we use that term.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well there bottle hitting knifes, pool cues, Multiple attackers and throwing brick.
> 
> You've only achieved that on other bjj, ers,, so that's all you can prove



But we still can prove some stuff. Which is still more than no stuff. 

If you are trying to argue that any system can be built on being unable to prove anything. You can't have a viable system.

Everything would have equal merit. 

But if we can process data properly. We can take the stuff we can prove and make theory's on stuff we can't prove.

And that takes us back to scientific method.


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## jobo (Jun 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> But we still can prove some stuff. Which is still more than no stuff.
> 
> If you are trying to argue that any system can be built on being unable to prove anything. You can't have a viable system.
> 
> ...


So what theory do you have for what you can't prove, which for Bjj,and self defence is everything, so you would need a theory of everything,


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> So what theory do you have for what you can't prove, which for Bjj,and self defence is everything, so you would need a theory of everything,



Not at all.

If I can change levels and hit a double leg. If I can do that reliably then that is viable self defence. Should I get grappled by a BJJ guy.

OK so from BJJ against bjj I have one technique I can practice. And I can practice it to a proficiency level that says I can rely on that technique to give me the best chance.

Now I can watch UFC and notice that the same double leg works as defence against punches.

I can theorise why. In that if a punch is coming at my head. And my head isn't there they can't punch my head.

I can take that information and apply double leg to defend punches.

Now I can also theorise that anything that follows that ark will miss my head. A chair, a pool cue, a fish. It doesn't matter. Because if that ark remains consistent. The takedown will stop it.

So instead of having a defence for a chair, a pool cue and a fish. I have a decent theory based on evidence.

So the big trick is developing that killer takedown. Not trying to identify exactly what sort of attack I am faced with.

Now I can specialize with situations. But that is the smallest and easiest to fix part of self defence.

The hardest part is having anything that actually works in the first place.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Not at all.
> 
> If I can change levels and hit a double leg. If I can do that reliably then that is viable self defence. Should I get grappled by a BJJ guy.
> 
> ...



This is also consistent with BJJ vs BJJ. So if you find yourself in an unfamiliar position. (Which happens during live training) you are required to apply concepts you know to solve situations you are unfamiliar with.

Have you watched the movie the Martian?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Your making up your own rather silly definitions again, there are two qualifications to be pain compliance t
> , one that he is in pain and two that he is compliant, if one or both of these is missing it's not pain compLiance , if both are present it clearly is,
> 
> Further it's impossible to cause enough pain to make someone complient, with out causing injury, someone with a broken arm, is going to be in quite a lot of pain and if you waddle his broken arm about will be reasonably compliant,


No, you are choosing to define a phrase by using the primary definitions of the component words. Language doesn't usually work that way.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> It's the pain alone that makes you complIent, and that the only thing Required to fit a reasonable definition,If pain compliance,


You are correct in that compliance with pain is the basis of what makes a pain compliance technique. You're incorrect in thinking (as you appear to) that anything that potentially involves pain is a pain compliance technique. A punch is not inherently a pain compliance technique, though it is possible for someone to comply simply because of the pain.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Another fantisT, that just knows he can defend against all commers no matter how big strong or many just coz he can roll with a blue belt


In what logic is that not a non  sequitur?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> But that doesn't make you complient, does it, it's pain that does that


you really don't understand, do you? Not even a little.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> No pain compliance is why there is both pain and compliance,


Only if you ignore the generally accepted usage. Which you do when you have no basis for your argument. But you knew that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Pop down to Manchester .
> 
> How do you know onE hadn't been thrown at you and it missed ?


Never happened to me, either. So, by the logic you used earlier, nobody should ever worry about it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Thranduil.


Sometimes your posts (or even your screen name) make me go look stuff up. How do I not know that character?


----------



## Jaeimseu (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Another fantisT, that just knows he can defend against all commers no matter how big strong or many just coz he can roll with a blue belt



I’m not sure what a fantistT is, but I think you might want to brush up on your reading comprehension and inferential skills. I’m not sure how anyone reading what I posted could infer that I believe I can take on “all comers no matter how big, strong, or many.” Are you seriously engaging in this argument or just deliberately trying to rile people up?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> Does being smashed over the head with a bar stool not magically work on you if your a bjj, white belt ?



Are we playing the “what if” game now?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 12, 2018)

jobo said:


> No pain compliance is why there is both pain and compliance,



It’s already been said that people don’t tap because of pain (outside of total beginners). People tap in training/competition to avoid serious injuries. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pdg (Jun 13, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> It’s already been said that people don’t tap because of pain (outside of total beginners). People tap in training/competition to avoid serious injuries.



I have toothache, it's horrible and painful.

I'll happily tap out to stop it hurting...


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## pdg (Jun 13, 2018)

I've been somewhat distracted, but I'm going to revisit:



jobo said:


> So you are assuming it's made your self defence capabilities better, ok maybe that a reasonable assumption, but a person who takes up nearly any sport, could reasonably make the same assumption, because of fitness, improveD reaction time, better ballance etc, so your no more certain than someone who plays ping,Pong of your increased ability ?



It's not an assumption that I'm making at all.

During sparring, I get hit less now and I get more hits out myself - compared to when I started. That's pretty much irrefutable.

While I don't consider the fighting part to be the be all and end all of SD, if it came to that now I believe I stand a better chance than before I started.

Someone who plays table tennis might actually have faster reactions than me, so by your logic they would fare even better - but reaction time is only a part of it, it's how you react that's more important. Would they know how to use their quick reactions to slip a punch, or catch a kick, or deliver anything themselves? They could be table tennis world champion but if they've never been punched will they fight, flight or freeze?

This is where the testing comes into play - I know I can get hit without falling apart psychologically, I know I'm prepared to hit someone else. It doesn't really matter if I've tested it in an actual self defence situation because it'll pretty reliably translate.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> So your just bITTeR as you couldNt understand it



No I understand it, its just flawed in its methods.

Watch the balistic(sic) defense video I linked




.



Tell me how you'd apply that against a resisting partner that  isn't arm hanging or that stop's hitting you.

There is no power in that hammer fist at all, even in the rip off spear gear they use you can see he's compliant.

Second using hammer fists excessively is stupid, they are easy to block and put huge amounts of stress on your unsupported proximal phalanx.


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> No I understand it, its just flawed in its methods.
> 
> Watch the balistic(sic) defense video I linked
> 
> ...


I'm a great fan of elbow fighting, that I know works very well, particularly up close, the upward fist has power, perhaps not as much as other punches, and that in isolation won't cause a great deal of damage, but in combination with a lot of other blows, it has its place


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

pdg said:


> I've been somewhat distracted, but I'm going to revisit:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So it is an assumption then, it may be a reasonable assumption, but you either have adequate evidence to come to a firm conclusion or you are making assumptions. And as you haven't actually tried it real life, it can only be an assumption.

I'm not saying a table tennis player would fare better than you, though they very well might, it requires exceptional fitness  to play at even a moderate competitive level, rather he or she could make exactly the same assumption that their self defence skills had improved, and be just as right or wrong as you are


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> It’s already been said that people don’t tap because of pain (outside of total beginners). People tap in training/competition to avoid serious injuries.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


SO if their arms is already broken, then wouldn't tap, if someone was twisting their broken arm ?
You clearly think not, as that pain wouldn't matter to them


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> I'm a great fan of elbow fighting, that I know works very well, particularly up close, the upward fist has power, perhaps not as much as other punches, and that in isolation won't cause a great deal of damage, but in combination with a lot of other blows, it has its place



No it doesn't half  the time when you enter with frame three the distance changes.

You are either to close for the hammer or too far away for the elbows.

But what about movement?

You have to move while loading and pro loading frames even split frames,this slows moving and reduces your visibility.

What is happening is called forcing, you force it to work because you HAVE to move between covers/frames when striking, this is called shape shifting in DL terms.


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You are correct in that compliance with pain is the basis of what makes a pain compliance technique. You're incorrect in thinking (as you appear to) that anything that potentially involves pain is a pain compliance technique. A punch is not inherently a pain compliance technique, though it is possible for someone to comply simply because of the pain.


If you punch someone repeatedly, they will sooner or later become complient, our lovely police force, use head strikes to force compliance on people who are resisting having hand cuffs fitted, They are also fOnd of hitting people with batterns, in the same circumstances, so both pain compliance techniques.

Three of them picked me up and swUng me in to a wall head first, and this dDefinitely made me more compliment


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> No it doesn't half  the time when you enter with frame three the distance changes.
> 
> You are either to close for the hammer or too far away for the elbows.
> 
> ...


A hammer fiSt from to close, may not carry as much powers as one from a more advantageous range, accepted, but to say it has no power is manifestLy and self evidently wrong


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> No, you are choosing to define a phrase by using the primary definitions of the component words. Language doesn't usually work that way.


Ok what are the secondary defintions, that change the meaning substantially?


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> A hammer fiSt from to close, may not carry as much powers as one from a more advantageous range, accepted, but to say it has no power is manifestLy and self evidently wrong



Its not a hammer fist in the traditional sense it's inverted, you are not generating power through your kinetic chain its all your arm.
You are unable to generate power compared to a comparable strike from the same angle. Do frame three and try it.


Why is he doing an awkward inverted hammer? Because he's forced to.


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Its not a hammer fist in the traditional sense it's inverted, you are not generating power through your kinetic chain its all your arm.
> You are unable to generate power compared to a comparable strike from the same angle. Do frame three and try it.
> 
> 
> Why is he doing an awkward inverted hammer? Because he's forced to.


Does that hammer fist carry power? You said no power, it clearly has power, certainly enough to hurt someone, you can generate significant power with just your arm


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> Does that hammer fist carry power? You said no power, it clearly has power, certainly enough to hurt someone, you can generate significant power with just your arm



No power relative to a technique that uses the same line and your kinetic chain.


Why don't you see muay Thai fighter's doing this?


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> Does that hammer fist carry power? You said no power, it clearly has power, certainly enough to hurt someone, you can generate significant power with just your arm




Would you rather me upper cut you or do that hammer fist?


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> No power relative to a technique that uses the same line and your kinetic chain.
> 
> 
> Why don't you see muay Thai fighter's doing this?


So it has power then and your previous statement it had no power was in error


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> So it has power then and your previous statement it had no power was in error



Relatively yes. Now answer the question, why do it?


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Would you rather me upper cut you or do that hammer fist?


That's not really a reasonable question, you have to throw from the position your arm is in after the previous stike, which in the case was an elbow, then it's a time thing, reposition your arm for an upper cut, or throw the hammer, I've broken people noses, with a similar stike, so it more than effective, but no you probably won't knock them out, but if they are still standing after  good elbow strikes your in trouble anyway


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> That's not really a reasonable question, you have to throw from the position your arm is in after the previous stike, which in the case was an elbow, then it's a time thing, reposition your arm for an upper cut, or throw the hammer, I've broken people noses, with a similar stike, so it more than effective, but no you probably won't knock them out, but if they are still standing after  good elbow strikes your in trouble anyway


Thus my point about forcing, framing like defense does forces you to use less effective techniques.
There isn't at elbow strike to the head till the third beat.
How do you break a nose like that? The strike is under the jaw.

How is this better than muay Thai cover,elbow to face?

Instead of frame 3,  upper hammer, frame2 elbow to body, to an ascending elbow.

Do you not see all the point's of failure?


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Relatively yes. Now answer the question, why do it?


PuncheS  that travel a long way are general more powerful than those that go a shorter distance, so why not just throw haymakers, lots of people do, 

Well for one the longer distance takes longer to set up and longer to travel, so your trading power for efficiency, or a softer blow that is more likely to land as they have less time to move Or to counter punch


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Thus my point about forcing, framing like defense does forces you to use less effective techniques.
> There isn't at elbow strike to the head till the third beat.
> How do you break a nose like that? The strike is under the jaw.
> 
> How is this better than muay Thai cover,elbow to face?


I missed and hit his nose


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> I missed and hit his nose


No one's claimed it better than MT,nothing is better than MT in my opinion, but that's not out discussion, which is the relative merits of bjj, and dl


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> No one's claimed it better than MT,nothing is better than MT, but that's not out discussion, which is the relative merits of bjj, and dl



No it isn't the point is  don't you see how this is a stupid system that uses long format drills that have so many  point's of failure there's no way you can do it realistically.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> No one's claimed it better than MT,nothing is better than MT in my opinion, but that's not out discussion, which is the relative merits of bjj, and dl



Seeing as defense lab is based on inosanto jkd/Kali as well as bjj why are we not comparing that?


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> No it isn't the point is  don't you see how this is a stupid system that uses long format drills that have so many  point's of failure there's no way you can do it realistically.


If you hit someone with aBarragee of elbows followed by a hammer fist, they will be in pretty bad shape, so that's a realistic technique for self defence, you picked thatVid as an example and that example shows a practical and effective technique, even if the hammer fist at the end isn't optimal and from where your arms are after the elbows, there's a limit to what you can do very quickly, in the same place I would have head butTed him to be honest, but that's just my preference, But if I catch them with a good elbow, I rather expect them to fall ovet, so the point is open


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Seeing as defense lab is based on inosanto jkd/Kali as well as bjj why are we not comparing that?


Mostly coz you claimed bjj, was better, and that what we are discusing, are you also claiming bjj, is better than jkd,


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> Mostly coz you claimed bjj, was better, and that what we are discusing, are you also claiming bjj, is better than jkd,



Because it is, the ground game of defence lab is bjj with skin tears and forced usage of framing


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Because it is, the ground game of defence lab is bjj with skin tears and forced usage of framing


Well clearly the ground game is NOT bjj, or it would include that mount escape you keep going on about,


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> If you punch someone repeatedly, they will sooner or later become complient, our lovely police force, use head strikes to force compliance on people who are resisting having hand cuffs fitted, They are also fOnd of hitting people with batterns, in the same circumstances, so both pain compliance techniques.
> 
> Three of them picked me up and swUng me in to a wall head first, and this dDefinitely made me more compliment


Not sure what any of that has to do with my statement.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> Ok what are the secondary defintions, that change the meaning substantially?


That's not how it works, either. Phrases, when used as accepted terms, have whatever definition they are accepted to have. That definition may or may not be tied to the actual definitions of the words making up that phrase. Words aren't numbers - you don't simply add them together to get a new meaning.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 13, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Thus my point about forcing, framing like defense does forces you to use less effective techniques.
> There isn't at elbow strike to the head till the third beat.
> How do you break a nose like that? The strike is under the jaw.
> 
> ...


I know the point you're trying to make, and I think it's a good one. But frankly in the chaos of a fight, things like this can be useful. Sometimes it's helpful to force a student into a position where you take away their "best" options to help build other options. Of course, if the overall approach (as you are implying) does this too much, then there's not enough training of the "best" options.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well clearly the ground game is NOT bjj, or it would include that mount escape you keep going on about,



Except it is, its a mount escape with skin tears.

Except you dont trap the arm or leg you use pain and force to drag the person of.

If the person has base it posture it won't work, they will clear your arms and hit you.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 13, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I know the point you're trying to make, and I think it's a good one. But frankly in the chaos of a fight, things like this can be useful. Sometimes it's helpful to force a student into a position where you take away their "best" options to help build other options. Of course, if the overall approach (as you are implying) does this too much, then there's not enough training of the "best" options.



The issue is that its always from a viewpoint of the frames. It limits your choices of strikes dependent on which if the 4 shapes you happen to use dependant on your hand position.

This compounds itself when the system requires you to be in the frames all the time, so it makes you vulnerable to being leg kicked.

The long form drills also don't really prepare you to apply the combinations you learn on a none arm hanging opponent.

Its supposed to be a simple system that anyone can learn and easily use, but it becomes so convoluted in its concepts.

It prides itself on being non conformist and adds strange techniques that I have never seen in other systems and probably for good reason, like punching with the knuckle of the thumb


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 13, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> The issue is that its always from a viewpoint of the frames. It limits your choices of strikes dependent on which if the 4 shapes you happen to use dependant on your hand position.
> 
> This compounds itself when the system requires you to be in the frames all the time, so it makes you vulnerable to being leg kicked.
> 
> ...


I wonder if the larger issue is that DL methodology might be best suited for short-term training. Beyond that, with a bit more experience, you'd want to get out of the framing box and open up your options more. Take something well-suited for short-term gains and try to lengthen it without really altering it, and you start holding folks too close to the limited (and limiting) choices of a beginner.


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Not sure what any of that has to do with my statement.


It has to do with your statement, that punching isn't pain compliance, when punching is most definitely use by the British boBby as a pain compliance technique


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## jobo (Jun 13, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That's not how it works, either. Phrases, when used as accepted terms, have whatever definition they are accepted to have. That definition may or may not be tied to the actual definitions of the words making up that phrase. Words aren't numbers - you don't simply add them together to get a new meaning.


Well it's not by definition an accepted term as I Diagree, And seemingly so do most dictionaries, ,

In your new an unofficial defintion, what aspect of pain or compliance have changed from the dictionary drfintion and what is the new meaning of the combined phrase, that doesn't include compliance through pain


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 13, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I wonder if the larger issue is that DL methodology might be best suited for short-term training. Beyond that, with a bit more experience, you'd want to get out of the framing box and open up your options more. Take something well-suited for short-term gains and try to lengthen it without really altering it, and you start holding folks too close to the limited (and limiting) choices of a beginner.



You're pretty much told to always over the head and never ever open up.


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## drop bear (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well it's not by definition an accepted term as I Diagree, And seemingly so do most dictionaries, ,
> 
> In your new an unofficial defintion, what aspect of pain or compliance have changed from the dictionary drfintion and what is the new meaning of the combined phrase, that doesn't include compliance through pain



Wiki's definition.
Pain compliance - Wikipedia


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> It has to do with your statement, that punching isn't pain compliance, when punching is most definitely use by the British boBby as a pain compliance technique


Go back and re-read my comment. You've left out a word that makes a difference. Many words do.

Most techniques have the potential to be used for pain compliance, even if they are not inherently pain compliance techniques.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well it's not by definition an accepted term as I Diagree, And seemingly so do most dictionaries, ,
> 
> In your new an unofficial defintion, what aspect of pain or compliance have changed from the dictionary drfintion and what is the new meaning of the combined phrase, that doesn't include compliance through pain


Accepted terms need only be accepted by those using them. And since everyone else here seems to have a common understanding of the term - despite coming from different backgrounds - it seems unlikely we've all stumbled into the same uncommon usage.

But go ahead and claim I've made that usage up. I'll be interested in seeing your attempt at logic in face of contrary fact.


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## drop bear (Jun 13, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I wonder if the larger issue is that DL methodology might be best suited for short-term training. Beyond that, with a bit more experience, you'd want to get out of the framing box and open up your options more. Take something well-suited for short-term gains and try to lengthen it without really altering it, and you start holding folks too close to the limited (and limiting) choices of a beginner.



It still has to be based on something. I mean I could just train basics that would give a starting self defencer something quick to work on.

But it is where the defence methodology isn't really grounded. So for example let's say that instead of putting some boxing gloves on, throwing punches and developing something simple to deal with that.

We decide that a street fight will only consist of ten seconds of overhand right attacks.

Then just like jobo mentioned you begin to have a system that leans towards a specific attack. Just like sport BJJ. Where you would spend time learning guard passes and submission defences you will probably never need.

But instead of ever refining that so that should someone throw 10 seconds of overhand rights at you. (Because non consensual violence does not parallel consensual violence)

You only drill what you think should happen in a street fight. Which then removes any real timing or feedback.

Suddenly you have time to block that overhand and hit them three times in the arm before it comes back.

And so because that would be the coolest thing ever. And because you are getting away with it in training. It becomes a viable self defence method.

I think if you are just left to drill people go cray cray after a while.


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## drop bear (Jun 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> I'm a great fan of elbow fighting, that I know works very well, particularly up close, the upward fist has power, perhaps not as much as other punches, and that in isolation won't cause a great deal of damage, but in combination with a lot of other blows, it has its place



So you don't like elbows from a distance?

There are better things with more likley results. Than how to deal with a person who throws one punch and then staunchly stands there while you throw multiple elbow back fists at them.

But yes uppercut backfists do work. They just don't work like that.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

drop bear said:


> So you don't like elbows from a distance?
> 
> There are better things with more likley results. Than how to deal with a person who throws one punch and then staunchly stands there while you throw multiple elbow back fists at them.
> 
> But yes uppercut backfists do work. They just don't work like that.



Its an reverse hammer fist, you can compare it with an upper back fist.

You can feel the difference in the structure of the arm,the hammer is an unnatural movement


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

drop bear said:


> It still has to be based on something. I mean I could just train basics that would give a starting self defencer something quick to work on.
> 
> But it is where the defence methodology isn't really grounded. So for example let's say that instead of putting some boxing gloves on, throwing punches and developing something simple to deal with that.
> 
> ...


That's quite accurate, the internal language is learn it were you learn the drill,develop the drill self explanatory, stress it where you do the drill under stress.

Example basic frame one straight punch defense

You learn it on pads,  deploy frame one block with elbows.

Develop it you keep doing it till it's in muscle memory

Stress it, you do it against a partner hitting you with pads or gloves. This however isn't sparring it would be technical sparring if im being  generous.

Its too much of the former and not enough of the latter and an obsession with secret techniques and naming drills stupid things like the terminator 5.

The Secret Techniques Behind Defence Lab - Defence Lab


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

drop bear said:


> So you don't like elbows from a distance?
> 
> There are better things with more likley results. Than how to deal with a person who throws one punch and then staunchly stands there while you throw multiple elbow back fists at them.
> 
> But yes uppercut backfists do work. They just don't work like that.


How can you have elbows from a distance, you are limited by the length of the upper arm? , in Short range they are extremely effective, , if I'm 3foot way they are useless


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

drop bear said:


> It still has to be based on something. I mean I could just train basics that would give a starting self defencer something quick to work on.
> 
> But it is where the defence methodology isn't really grounded. So for example let's say that instead of putting some boxing gloves on, throwing punches and developing something simple to deal with that.
> 
> ...


Yes, that. That's what I was getting at. So, if I took my "foundation" material as an example (the first few classes in my curriculum). It's a gathering of fairly uncomplicated stuff that introduces covers and blocks, basic strikes, a tiny amount of footwork, some body movement, etc. It's meant to be something a beginner can digest, and at the end of it, they can kind of do some stuff - only against some few predictable attacks. If I stuck only to that for students who stayed for 2 years, and kept working on those same attacks, you'd get exactly what you're talking about. If I only introduced sparring on top of that, it would expand quite a bit, rather naturally. In fact, if I had someone who only wanted to train for a few classes, then come back once a month, that's probably what I'd do.


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Accepted terms need only be accepted by those using them. And since everyone else here seems to have a common understanding of the term - despite coming from different backgrounds - it seems unlikely we've all stumbled into the same uncommon usage.
> 
> But go ahead and claim I've made that usage up. I'll be interested in seeing your attempt at logic in face of contrary fact.


But I'm using it and don't accept your extremely limited definition So it clearly isNt an accepted defintion, if you had said commonly accepted defintion, you may have had a point to argue, though that would have lead to the question of how you had assessed how common it was, , you or at least someone has made it up, And it's clearly nonsensical to exclude techniques that reply on pain compliance from being included as pain compliance techniques


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> But I'm using it and don't accept your extremely limited definition So it clearly isNt an accepted defintion, if you had said commonly accepted defintion, you may have had a point to argue, though that would have lead to the question of how you had assessed how common it was, , you or at least someone has made it up, And it's clearly nonsensical to exclude techniques that reply on pain compliance from being included as pain compliance techniques


Doesn't even have to be common, though. Every trade, industry, and profession has jargon that is not common outside that population, but is is the accepted usage within it. Doesn't matter whether it's in the dictionary or not (dictionaries are repositories, not rule books), so long as those involved understand the usage. If I walk into a bank and tell them they're mis-using a word, that doesn't make them wrong - it just means I don't understand the industry usage of the term.

But keep going. You're almost getting to a point.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> But I'm using it and don't accept your extremely limited definition So it clearly isNt an accepted defintion, if you had said commonly accepted defintion, you may have had a point to argue, though that would have lead to the question of how you had assessed how common it was, , you or at least someone has made it up, And it's clearly nonsensical to exclude techniques that reply on pain compliance from being included as pain compliance techniques



If I arm bar you I have control of your structure, if wanted to I could just break the arm rendering it useless.

If I skin tear you I have no real structural control and no ability to do anything but superficial damage 

One is a control based on structure that can be enhanced with pain but doesn't require it to work.

One requires pain to function.


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Doesn't even have to be common, though. Every trade, industry, and profession has jargon that is not common outside that population, but is is the accepted usage within it. Doesn't matter whether it's in the dictionary or not (dictionaries are repositories, not rule books), so long as those involved understand the usage. If I walk into a bank and tell them they're mis-using a word, that doesn't make them wrong - it just means I don't understand the industry usage of the term.
> 
> But keep going. You're almost getting to a point.


Are you claiming its accepted usage, common usage, accepted usage in this forum or common usage on this forum

Just to remind you, it was people telling me I was wrong, Not the other way round,


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> If I arm bar you I have control of your structure, if wanted to I could just break the arm rendering it useless.
> 
> If I skin tear you I have no real structural control and no ability to do anything but superficial damage
> 
> ...


So your working definition of a pain compliance technique, is that pain is not required,,, this is getting more bizare,

Is compliance required or is this just randomly picking words out of a hat


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> So your working definition of a pain compliance technique, is that pain is not required,,, this is getting more bizare,
> 
> Is compliance required or is this just randomly picking words out of a hat



Why do you think arm bars still work on people on PCP?

Control isolate and immobilize.

Can you stop a guy out of his mind on drugs using skin tears?


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Why do you think arm bars still work on people on PCP?
> 
> Control isolate and immobilize.
> 
> Can you stop a guy out of his mind on drugs using skin tears?


Coz it controls, i.e. It's a control technique not a pain compliance technique, because the feel no pain and therefore they don't become compliant,,,


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## drop bear (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> How can you have elbows from a distance, you are limited by the length of the upper arm? , in Short range they are extremely effective, , if I'm 3foot way they are useless



Yes that was my point.


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yes that was my point.


Was it ? You disguised it well!


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> Coz it controls, i.e. It's a control technique not a pain compliance technique, because the feel no pain and therefore they don't become compliant,,,




Hence my point. 


Do I use the Mount defense that relies on manipulating base?

Or do I use the one that relies on pain?


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Hence my point.
> 
> 
> Do I use the Mount defense that relies on manipulating base?
> ...


You use the one that works best in the,situation you find yourself in, sometimes you can dictate what happens and can pick you most favoured technique, others you have to go with what presents its self.

The bjj mount defence is not in anyway what do ever a pain compliance technique, so I don't know why you are trying to shoE horn it into the discussion on pain compliance techniques


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> You use the one that works best in the,situation you find yourself in, sometimes you can dictate what happens and can pick you most favoured technique, others you have to go with what presents its self.
> 
> The bjj mount defence is not in anyway what do ever a pain compliance technique, so I don't know why you are trying to shoE horn it into the discussion on pain compliance techniques



Because that's the point. Why use a technique that's REQUIRES pain response to function instead of a technique that doesnt?


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Because that's the point. Why use a technique that's REQUIRES pain response to function instead of a technique that doesnt?


Because in a fight you may not have a choice, and in a fight pain/ damage to your opponent is commonly the goal,

You may only have 30 seconds to go before someone breaks it up and in that time you want to cause the maximum damage/ pain that is possible.

If your fighting multiple opponents you have only a few seconds, 3/4/5 maybe, to dispatch an opponent, before his friends join in, you need to hurt / damage him as much as possible in that time, messing about putting him an arm bar will only get you hurt. If all you can do is slash him up with a ring then that's all you can do, at the vet least he is in hospital with you gettibg,stitched up, which will make you feel better

At the simplest level of I was in a mount, if rather hit the guy with an elbows to get him off, than just get him off, noR are escape from mounts always possible, no matter what technique you use, so just hurt him if you can, it's really the best idea not to go to ground and if you do, do not end up on the bottom, no matter what you do, your going to end up taking some heavy punches if the guy mounts you, escaping when you've been punch unconscious may be difficult


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> Because in a fight you may not have a choice, and in a fight pain/ damage to your opponent is commonly the goal,
> 
> You may only have 30 seconds to go before someone breaks it up and in that time you want to cause the maximum damage/ pain that is possible.
> 
> ...



You keep changing the context.
Of course an arm bar isn't suitable in all situations.

The rings are gimmick's. 

If the guys mounted you how are you going to elbows him? You posture up to strike in top mount.


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You keep changing the context.
> Of course an arm bar isn't suitable in all situations.
> 
> The rings are gimmick's.
> ...


No he context is self defence, it's you that keeps diverting to dojo mode, getting out of a mount as class, with an opponent of similar weight is one thing, do the same if he is substantially heavier than you AND is punching your lights out, is another matteR
If the ring does damage it's not a gimmick,

How to elbow ?, as shown in that Vid you posted, have you not watched it ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> Are you claiming its accepted usage, common usage, accepted usage in this forum or common usage on this forum
> 
> Just to remind you, it was people telling me I was wrong, Not the other way round,


I'm not sure there's any reason to continue that line of discussion, Jobo.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> So your working definition of a pain compliance technique, is that pain is not required,,, this is getting more bizare,
> 
> Is compliance required or is this just randomly picking words out of a hat


And now you're purposely reading things counter to their meaning. Do you actually have a point to make, or just feel like diverting discussion from anything useful?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> Because in a fight you may not have a choice, and in a fight pain/ damage to your opponent is commonly the goal,
> 
> You may only have 30 seconds to go before someone breaks it up and in that time you want to cause the maximum damage/ pain that is possible.
> 
> ...


Your statement repeatedly confounds pain and damage. One is useful in every point you mention. The other is unreliable in every point you mention.


----------



## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> And now you're purposely reading things counter to their meaning. Do you actually have a point to make, or just feel like diverting discussion from anything useful?


That's where dictionaries come in handy and people randomly making up their own definition leads to confusion


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> No he context is self defence, it's you that keeps diverting to dojo mode, getting out of a mount as class, with an opponent of similar weight is one thing, do the same if he is substantially heavier than you AND is punching your lights out, is another matteR
> If the ring does damage it's not a gimmick,
> 
> How to elbow ?, as shown in that Vid you posted, have you not watched it ?



Not every fight is against multiple opponents
He never shows it against a postured opponent, the only way you


jobo said:


> No he context is self defence, it's you that keeps diverting to dojo mode, getting out of a mount as class, with an opponent of similar weight is one thing, do the same if he is substantially heavier than you AND is punching your lights out, is another matteR
> If the ring does damage it's not a gimmick,
> 
> How to elbow ?, as shown in that Vid you posted, have you not watched it ?



Weight and punching doesn't change the escape.

Cover
Bridge to force them to post 
Capture an arm
Trap the leg 
bridge that side
Stand up

You realise the posture in the video is a bjj posture?

How do you perform this against your criteria? 
A postured opponent that is striking
You can't use that head control without breaking posture.
Why is a random Street attacker using a bjj posture and bicep control?


----------



## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Your statement repeatedly confounds pain and damage. One is useful in every point you mention. The other is unreliable in every point you mention.


They are much the same that's how the body works, the more damage the more pain, except for a very few very sensitive areas


----------



## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure there's any reason to continue that line of discussion, Jobo.


There certainly is, you've made a statement oR two and keep changing both the words and the meaning of those words, I think you clarifying your pOint is well worth while, if only to wAtch you torture the English language some more


----------



## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Not every fight is against multiple opponents
> He never shows it against a postured opponent, the only way you
> 
> 
> ...


I don't under stand most of that, so Lets go  with the only bIt that made sense, of course weight and punches change the likelihood of your escape working,


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

Another question you've dodged

Why is Rubens  pain response so slow? Is it because hes acting?
I've trained with those rings and I've trained with Andy.
They are gimmicks.


----------



## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Another question you've dodged
> 
> Why is Rubens  pain response so slow? Is it because hes acting?
> I've trained with those rings and I've trained with Andy.
> They are gimmicks.


Of course he is demonstrAting, Andy isn't really hitting him hard with his elbow or he would be on the way to hospital with a depressed cheek bone, do you want him to have facial reconstruction surgery to add authenticity


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> I don't under stand most of that, so Lets go  with the only bIt that made sense, of course weight and punches change the likelihood of your escape working,



They can't hit you if both of their hands are posted meaning in the ground, you use a bridge , bucking your hips up, you can also use a one legged bridge with a knee to make them do that, you trap one of them and trap the same side foot.
You bridge to one side.
Posture up
Stand


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> Of course he is demonstrAting, Andy isn't really hitting him hard with his elbow or he would be on the way to hospital with a depressed cheek bone, do you want him to have facial reconstruction surgery to add authenticity


You've clearly never trained with Andy Norman.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

You mean the elbows you won't get if the person isn't being compliant?


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You mean the elbows you won't get if the person isn't being compliant?


They don't need to be compliant they only have to come into range,, you could make the same point for any striking technique if they stay out of range it's useless


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> That's where dictionaries come in handy and people randomly making up their own definition leads to confusion


You seem to have missed my earlier comment that dictionaries are repositories, not rule books. Dictionaries follow general usage, not the other way around - and dictionaries often lack jargon usage.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> They are much the same that's how the body works, the more damage the more pain, except for a very few very sensitive areas


Not all that consistently, but it's a reasonable general rule when you're talking about damage. However, that leaves out all the ways pain can be applied without doing much or any damage. And that's what pain compliance techniques rely upon.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> There certainly is, you've made a statement oR two and keep changing both the words and the meaning of those words, I think you clarifying your pOint is well worth while, if only to wAtch you torture the English language some more


Nice try, but nope.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> They don't need to be compliant they only have to come into range,, you could make the same point for any striking technique if they stay out of range it's useless


How do you get them in range? From the video.


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Not all that consistently, but it's a reasonable general rule when you're talking about damage. However, that leaves out all the ways pain can be applied without doing much or any damage. And that's what pain compliance techniques rely upon.


You can't cause pain with outdamage, it being the bOddies response to damage And all

Give me a list of pain causing things that cause NO damage or is this another invented definition of no damage that doesn't include things sustaining damage or feeling pain


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

You tell 


veritasAequitas said:


> How do you get them in range? From the video.


Tell them you want to whisper in their ear


----------



## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You seem to have missed my earlier comment that dictionaries are repositories, not rule books. Dictionaries follow general usage, not the other way around - and dictionaries often lack jargon usage.


No thEy arE rules books for clear communication if you wish to communicate clearly you use the dictionary definition, if you want to bamboozle and then refuse to back up your made up on the Spot definitions then you dont.


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## pdg (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> You can't cause pain with outdamage, it being the bOddies response to damage And all
> 
> Give me a list of pain causing things that cause NO damage at all, or is this another invented definition of no damage that doesn't include things sustaining damage or feeling pain



The primary purpose of pain is to stop or restrict damage.

The idea is if it hurts, you stop doing it before it causes damage.

If it has already caused damage, the pain stops you doing more damage and reminds you not to do it again.

This is from an evolutionary standpoint - MA pain compliance simply takes advantage of the inbuilt systems we all have.


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

pdg said:


> The primary purpose of pain is to stop or restrict damage.
> 
> The idea is if it hurts, you stop doing it before it causes damage.
> 
> ...


Ok same question let's have a list of Techniques that cause pAIn with out any damage


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> You can't cause pain with outdamage, it being the bOddies response to damage And all
> 
> Give me a list of pain causing things that cause NO damage or is this another invented definition of no damage that doesn't include things sustaining damage or feeling pain


I did actually say "little or no" damage. It's arguable whether there's any actual damage when I reach in and activate the nerve pressure point behind the clavicle or under the ear. Probably there's some minuscule bruising, but not that I've ever been able to detect even an hour or two later, except in extreme cases where there was actual, visible skin bruising.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> No thEy arE rules books for clear communication if you wish to communicate clearly you use the dictionary definition, if you want to bamboozle and then refuse to back up your made up on the Spot definitions then you dont.


Nope. Dictionaries change to follow general usage. Pick up two dictionaries published 10 years apart by the same publisher, and you'll see this in evidence.


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I did actually say "little or no" damage. It's arguable whether there's any actual damage when I reach in and activate the nerve pressure point behind the clavicle or under the ear. Probably there's some minuscule bruising, but not that I've ever been able to detect even an hour or two later, except in extreme cases where there was actual, visible skin bruising.


So are you changing you claim that you can cause pain with out damage ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> So are you changing you claim that you can cause pain with out damage ?


I don't recall ever making that claim - try again. As I said, though, it's arguable whether there's any damage with some pain techniques - certainly none of significance, and not enough for the damage to be a factor in a fight.


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Nope. Dictionaries change to follow general usage. Pick up two dictionaries published 10 years apart by the same publisher, and you'll see this in evidence.


There may be a couple of hundred new words Or definitions in a dictionary of half a million Words. Over a decade, but if you throw away all the dictionaries then all communication other than pointing will be gone in a decade,


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

How do you get them in range of the elbows?

I thought no training was better than bjj?


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I don't recall ever making that claim - try again. As I said, though, it's arguable whether there's any damage with some pain techniques - certainly none of significance, and not enough for the damage to be a factor in a fight.


You Cleary said  "no damage "  now your trying to add the word significant to a phrase that didn't previously contain significant. Are you also using you own definition of significant ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> There may be a couple of hundred new words Or definitions in a dictionary of half a million Words. Over a decade, but if you throw away all the dictionaries then all communication other than pointing will be gone in a decade,


Dictionaries are useful because they help us look up what the current common usage is (plus spelling and other assorted bits that help). Usage changes constantly. Sometimes words even end up reversing their meanings over time. Because not all words change at once, we all manage to communicate fairly well, in spite of the fact that most of us don't need to pick up a dictionary more than a few times a year.

Your inability to accept that language is what people make it, rather than a limitation placed upon people, baffles me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> You Cleary said  "no damage "  now your trying to add the word significant to a phrase that didn't previously contain significant. Are you also using you own definition of significant ?


Show me where I said that. As for "significant', I'd use whatever measurement of that the recipient cared to use, as "significant" is a relative term whose definition need not be changed to be variable.

But you're trying really hard to make this a language issue. It's not, and you know it's not. When you come up with a new point to make that adds to the value of this thread, I'll respond. Otherwise, I'll get back to the discussion at hand.


----------



## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> How do you get them in range of the elbows?
> 
> I thought no Scientific evidence was better than bjj?


No I said thereS no evidence that bJj is b better than no trAining, a thing that seems to hold true as no Scientific  evIdence has been forth comming


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I did actually say "little or no" damage..


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## pdg (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> Ok same question let's have a list of Techniques that cause pAIn with out any damage



Any technique that you can apply in manner so controlled as to be stopped at any point.

I bend your fingers back - it'll hurt way before any damage is caused.

I put pressure on your elbow in the wrong direction - it'll hurt way before any damage is caused.

I grab your ear - it'll hurt way before I can start making a necklace.



If you're saying that you, personally, can't inflict pain without causing damage, then you lack control.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

pdg said:


> Any technique that you can apply in manner so controlled as to be stopped at any point.
> 
> I bend your fingers back - it'll hurt way before any damage is caused.
> 
> ...


I'll add all nerve pressure points to that list, when applied with any control.


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## pdg (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'll add all nerve pressure points to that list, when applied with any control.



My list was never meant to be exhaustive, more a tiny selection of examples.

There are more ways to cause pain without causing damage than I'll ever know...


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Dictionaries are useful because they help us look up what the current common usage is (plus spelling and other assorted bits that help). Usage changes constantly. Sometimes words even end up reversing their meanings over time. Because not all words change at once, we all manage to communicate fairly well, in spite of the fact that most of us don't need to pick up a dictionary more than a few times a year.
> 
> Your inability to accept that language is what people make it, rather than a limitation placed upon people, baffles me.


, well you clearly dont, you just make things up


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> No I said thereS no evidence that bJj is b better than no trAining, a thing that seems to hold true as no Scientific  evIdence has been forth comming



How are you going to get that elbow strike?


----------



## pdg (Jun 14, 2018)

Can someone tl;dr the whole dictionary argument for me please?


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

pdg said:


> Any technique that you can apply in manner so controlled as to be stopped at any point.
> 
> I bend your fingers back - it'll hurt way before any damage is caused.
> 
> ...


So the pain is caused by damage to the finger tendons, are are so saying bending the tendons to cause pain cause no damage at all to the tendons ?


----------



## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'll add all nerve pressure points to that list, when applied with any control.


Well they cause damage to the nervous system and of course the skin,


----------



## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

pdg said:


> Can someone tl;dr the whole dictionary argument for me please?


GErry is making up his own definition And then telling people who use the,dictionary definition they are wrongand then saying it doesn't matter as dictionaries are only advisory and words mean anything he wants them to, but then if you make up your own definition of say "damage" he says your wrong as it's not in the dictionary


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## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> How are you going to get that elbow strike?


I'm  Lay quietly And lUre him in, that's how I catch rabbits and fish


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## pdg (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> So the pain is caused by damage to the finger tendons, are are so saying bending the tendons to cause pain cause no damage at all to the tendons ?



Yes I am.

The body is built to feel pain before the point of damage is reached - it's a natural defence mechanism.

Put your hand near something hot - you feel heat. At a certain point it'll start to hurt, but no damage yet. That's the defence - stop doing that, it hurts.

Keep doing it and get more pain, and a blister. That's slight damage (although in itself a blister is a defence mechanism).

Push through that pain and you'll get an actual burn, and even more lasting pain.

It's not like touching a lightbulb you've just turned off will melt your arm off and leave a charred stump - but it'll hurt a little.

That's the same thing as bending your finger back. A bit of pain is your body telling you to stop the action (or comply if you will) before any damage happens. Self protection...

It's not such a binary system as you're trying to make it - you can easily have pain without damage.

Go on, tell me I'm wrong.


----------



## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yes I am.
> 
> The body is built to feel pain before the point of damage is reached - it's a natural defence mechanism.
> 
> ...


JUSt moving a tendon I  the normal run of things damAges it, stretching it, as you are definitely damageS it, tendons are not stretchy and now it's stretched that's damage


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> I'm  Lay quietly And lUre him in, that's how I catch rabbits and fish


But how though?

Scientifically.


----------



## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> But how though?
> 
> Scientifically.


If pretend to have a Heart attack then when he came in to give the kids of life, wham. I've done something not that dissimilar with good result s


----------



## pdg (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> JUSt moving a tendon I  the normal run of things damAges it, stretching it, as you are definitely damageS it, tendons are not stretchy and now it's stretched that's damage



Do a search for "tendon elasticity".

Seriously.


----------



## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

pdg said:


> Do a search for "tendon elasticity".
> 
> Seriously.


If you hadn't gone past the elastic stAge , it wouldNt be stretched and no pain. So it's a self proving point, pain equals stretch equals damage, but just doIng press ups damages them


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> If pretend to have a Heart attack then when he came in to give the kids of life, wham. I've done something not that dissimilar with good result s



So I'm required to provide detailed,  word perfect responses to you that you never deem good enough.

Yet you can't extend me the courtesy to explain a technique every white belt bjj knows?

Lol so you can't escape it good to know your limits.


----------



## pdg (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> If you hadn't gone past the elastic stAge , it wouldNt be stretched and no pain. So it's a self proving point, pain equals stretch equals damage, but just doIng press ups damages them



Press ups done wrong can damage certain tendons, but correctly executed causes no tendon damage at all.

They can cause minor damage to muscle fibres, but that's the point - minor damage to muscle fibre from overload is what causes strengthening and growth.

I haven't seen this stated yet, so I'd like to be the first.

You're talking crap.

I actually think you know you are and are trying to be clever with your arguments, but it's just making you look extremely ignorant.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> If you hadn't gone past the elastic stAge , it wouldNt be stretched and no pain. So it's a self proving point, pain equals stretch equals damage, but just doIng press ups damages them



Cell telomere shortening isnt painful, yet that is damage? Neither is the low dosage of radiation damage  you get from the sun every day.


----------



## jobo (Jun 14, 2018)

pdg said:


> Press ups done wrong can damage certain tendons, but correctly executed causes no tendon damage at all.
> 
> They can cause minor damage to muscle fibres, but that's the point - minor damage to muscle fibre from overload is what causes strengthening and growth.
> 
> ...


No it damages them, they get stronger through damage but it's still damage, just like stretching them with a finger bend is damage


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

pdg said:


> Can someone tl;dr the whole dictionary argument for me please?


Sure. Jobo doesn’t like that the term “pain compliance”, as commonly used in martial arts, isn’t just an amalgam of the definitions of those two words.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> So the pain is caused by damage to the finger tendons, are are so saying bending the tendons to cause pain cause no damage at all to the tendons ?


What level of damage is occurring. I’ve had that done many times with nothing more than temporary (maybe a few minutes) pain. Perhaps there are micro-tears like with some exercise.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well they cause damage to the nervous system and of course the skin,


Do they?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> GErry is making up his own definition And then telling people who use the,dictionary definition they are wrongand then saying it doesn't matter as dictionaries are only advisory and words mean anything he wants them to, but then if you make up your own definition of say "damage" he says your wrong as it's not in the dictionary


Straw man. I never said the dictionary was wrong.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> If you hadn't gone past the elastic stAge , it wouldNt be stretched and no pain. So it's a self proving point, pain equals stretch equals damage, but just doIng press ups damages them


That’s a conclusion I’m not familiar with. Can you point me to an article?


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 15, 2018)

Oh look the police agree with us


Pain Compliance vs. Body Mechanics.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 15, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That’s a conclusion I’m not familiar with. Can you point me to an article?



Hes talking about micro tears, however once again hes goal posting to win arguments rather than have an actual discussion.


To give an example.of pointless use of skin tears.

Arm drag control. 

Do I 

A) capture right wrist with my left,  control elbow with a strong right hand grip?

B) the same except instead of an elbow control I grab the triceps area in a skin tear.

Why is the stupid? Inconsistencies.

If the person feels pain the natural response is to remove or move away from the source of.pain, usually by pulling the arm out, more on this in a second.

If hes not feeling pain due to adrenaline or drugs, you've sacrificed a Strong grip for a weak one.

Get a broom, grip it and get a Buddy to try to pull it away, now.do the same but with a shallow grip on a towel.


----------



## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Straw man. I never said the dictionary was wrong.


No itS your strawman, I said you say people( ie me) who use The dictionary are wrong, as you have repeatedly, on the definition of pain compliance.


----------



## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Oh look the police agree with us
> 
> 
> Pain Compliance vs. Body Mechanics.


Have you read that ? It agreedS entirely with my points,


----------



## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That’s a conclusion I’m not familiar with. Can you point me to an article?


You want an article that's says stretching tendons past the point, that they have the elasticity to accomplish damages them ? Really ? How do you thiNK people damage tendons ?


----------



## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Do they?


Of course they do, pressing a pressure points over loads the nervous system preventing it from working correctly, i.e. It's damaged, pressing the skin hard enough to accomplish the above, damages the skin,


----------



## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> What level of damage is occurring. I’ve had that done many times with nothing more than temporary (maybe a few minutes) pain. Perhaps there are micro-tears like with some exercise.


The issue at hand is damage, if you hurt AFTer it's because you have sustained damage, there is no other reason for The pain to continue other thAN damage had been caused


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 15, 2018)

jobo said:


> No itS your strawman, I said you say people( ie me) who use The dictionary are wrong, as you have repeatedly, on the definition of pain compliance.



Pain compliance is using pain to gain compliance. 

Pain compliance is not reliable

Structural control is better. 

End of story.


----------



## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Pain compliance is using pain to gain compliance.
> 
> Pain compliance is not reliable
> 
> ...


Yes structural control is better ( in some circumstances)no one has disputed that, the issue was that you were claiming Pain compliance  is structural control  And structural control is pain compliance, and that link clearly says the two are different.

An arm bar with no pain is structural control, an arm bar with pain is pain compliance, , which could be better, if what you want is compliance rather than just control,


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 15, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes structural control is better ( in some circumstances)no one has disputed that, the issue was that you were claiming Pain compliance  is structural control  And structural control is pain compliance, and that link clearly says the two are different.
> 
> An arm bar with no pain is structural control, an arm bar with pain is pain compliance, , which could be better, if what you want is compliance rather than just control,




I never claimed pain compliance is structural control, its quite the opposite.


----------



## CB Jones (Jun 15, 2018)

Shouldn't structural control and pain compliance go hand in hand?


----------



## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Hes talking about micro tears, however once again hes goal posting to win arguments rather than have an actual discussion.
> 
> 
> To give an example.of pointless use of skin tears.
> ...


It's also a common misconception that adrenaline,reduces pain responce, studies have shown that it can both marginaly increase and reduce pain response dependent on the typE of pain, the Definning factor in reduced pain response is not adrenaline but the subject being distracted, by what ever is Stressing them, not the bodies reaction to that stress, if you make make them concentrate on the pain, then the pain response is higher, not lower, Ie if it's the pain that is causing the adrenaline release then the pain response will be greater


----------



## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Shouldn't structural control and pain compliance go hand in hand?


YouD think so, but apparently not according to some here


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 15, 2018)

jobo said:


> It's also a common misconception that adrenaline,reduces pain responce, studies have shown that it can both marginaly increase and reduce pain response dependent on the typE of pain, the Definning factor in reduced pain response is not adrenaline but the subject being distracted, by what ever is Stressing them, not the bodies reaction to that stress, if you make make them concentrate on the pain, then the pain response is higher, not lower, Ie if it's the pain that is causing the adrenaline release then the pain response will be greater



You are trained to use skin tears as a control in defense lab when executing an arm drag, a better way is to simply cup the elbow or grab clothing rather than trying to tear skin.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 15, 2018)

jobo said:


> YouD think so, but apparently not according to some here



Pain compliance on its own is not enough, i made this point with skin tears, so you goal posted the argument. 

I asked you how do you escape a mount and you dodged the question.


----------



## veritasAequitas (Jun 15, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Shouldn't structural control and pain compliance go hand in hand?



They do, my argument was that using techniques that RELY on pain to work are not as effective as ones that use structural control.

An example of this is the defense lab choke defense that relies on a line motor movement that attacks the ulnar nerve. 

Without pain this does not function.

BJJ choke defense attacks the structure of the choke, this does not require pain to function.


----------



## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> I never claimed pain compliance is structural control, its quite the opposite.


You claim an arm bar with pain want


veritasAequitas said:


> They do, my argument was that using techniques that RELY on pain to work are not as effective as ones that use structural control.
> 
> An example of this is the defense lab choke defense that relies on a line motor movement that attacks the ulnar nerve.
> 
> ...


Not as effective At  what, structural control will not give you compliance, if what you need is compliance then pain is what you must achieve, ergo pain compliance technique are not only better, but the only ones that work at getting compliance


----------



## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Pain compliance on its own is not enough, i made this point with skin tears, so you goal posted the argument.
> 
> I asked you how do you escape a mount and you dodged the question.


Clearly if they become compliant through pain, then pain compliance is enough !


----------



## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> You are trained to use skin tears as a control in defense lab when executing an arm drag, a better way is to simply cup the elbow or grab clothing rather than trying to tear skin.


That doesn't alter the fact that your claim that adrenaline will reduce pain response was fundamental wrong, which was your main argument against the use of pain as a response to being attacked


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 15, 2018)

jobo said:


> It's also a common misconception that adrenaline,reduces pain responce, studies have shown that it can both marginaly increase and reduce pain response dependent on the typE of pain, the Definning factor in reduced pain response is not adrenaline but the subject being distracted, by what ever is Stressing them, not the bodies reaction to that stress, if you make make them concentrate on the pain, then the pain response is higher, not lower, Ie if it's the pain that is causing the adrenaline release then the pain response will be greater



Cite them.

adrenaline (epinephrine) or norepinephrine occupy the alpha 2 receptors in the ascending tract of the spinal cord, blocking the transmission of pain up the spinal cord to the brain

release of epi/norepinephrine also stimulates the release of enkephalins and endorphins from the adrenal gland. They are the bodies natural version of opiods. Enkephalins act at the delta receptor and endorphins at Mu1 (same receptor opioids act at to modulate pain)

note: interestingly enough the adrenaline that blocks the alpha 2 receptors comes from the brain and is not just the circulating levels. Therefore it is commonly known as descending inhibition. This inhibition can also be activated by rubbing or massaging an injury. Think about it, when you stub your tow or bang your elbow what do you instinctively do - rub or massage it.

"Spinal iontophoresis of NA or intrathecal administration of a non-selective alpha agonists inhibits stimulus induced depolarization of nociceptive neurons [34, 82] [17]. Because alpha-1 agonists such as phenylephrine are without analgesic effects, the alpha-2 receptors were concluded to mediate the antinociceptive effect of NA."


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## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Pain compliance on its own is not enough, i made this point with skin tears, so you goal posted the argument.
> 
> I asked you how do you escape a mount and you dodged the question.


I


veritasAequitas said:


> Cite them.
> 
> adrenaline (epinephrine) or norepinephrine occupy the alpha 2 receptors in the ascending tract of the spinal cord, blocking the transmission of pain up the spinal cord to the brain
> 
> ...




Animal Instincts of the Human Body: A Psychological and Skeletal Muscular Analysis of Adrenaline on the Human Body | The People, Ideas, and Things (PIT) Journal

All the studies are cited


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 15, 2018)

Learn the difference between adrenaline, endorphins and norepinephrine.


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## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Learn the difference between adrenaline, endorphins and norepinephrine.


??? Epinephrine is another and more accurate name for adrenaline, but that text you copied with out reading also say that, and as its epinephorine the studies are about, that also adrenaline 
epinephrine - Bing


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 15, 2018)

jobo said:


> ??? Epinephrine is another and more accurate name for adrenaline, but that text you copied with out reading also say that, and as its epinephorine the studies are about, that also adrenaline
> epinephrine - Bing



Why are you telling me things I already know?


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 15, 2018)

Epinephrine vs Norepinephrine: Function, Uses, Deficiency, and Excess


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## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Why are you telling me things I already know?


coz for some bizare reason you introduced endorphins into the mix,as a response to my article on epinephrine, so i naturally i assumed you were having some level of confusion. About the subject of the,articles


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2018)

jobo said:


> No itS your strawman, I said you say people( ie me) who use The dictionary are wrong, as you have repeatedly, on the definition of pain compliance.


Um, nope. Still a strawman.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2018)

jobo said:


> You want an article that's says stretching tendons past the point, that they have the elasticity to accomplish damages them ? Really ? How do you thiNK people damage tendons ?


No, that there's only pain if you've gone past the point of elasticity.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2018)

jobo said:


> Of course they do, pressing a pressure points over loads the nervous system preventing it from working correctly, i.e. It's damaged, pressing the skin hard enough to accomplish the above, damages the skin,


You're just restating what you said before. Does pressing a nerve until it starts to hurt actually cause damage? Pain nerves (the nerves that transmit pain sensations) aren't necessarily tied to damage.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2018)

jobo said:


> The issue at hand is damage, if you hurt AFTer it's because you have sustained damage, there is no other reason for The pain to continue other thAN damage had been caused


So, what is the damage they are reacting to when a nerve pressure point has been pressed?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes structural control is better ( in some circumstances)no one has disputed that, the issue was that you were claiming Pain compliance  is structural control  And structural control is pain compliance, and that link clearly says the two are different.


Um, no, that's not a claim he made.



> An arm bar with no pain is structural control, an arm bar with pain is pain compliance, , which could be better, if what you want is compliance rather than just control,


If an arm bar without pain is structural control, then an arm bar with pain is BOTH structural control and pain compliance. Structural control doesn't go away because pain joins the equation.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Shouldn't structural control and pain compliance go hand in hand?


In some cases, but not in all. I can create structural control without pain compliance with an arm drag, and even with an arm bar (by changing where I apply pressure). And it's possible for someone to not feel the pain of a technique, so it may become structural only.

And I can create pain compliance without direct structure control (only getting whatever control the pain compliance gives me).


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## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You're just restating what you said before. Does pressing a nerve until it starts to hurt actually cause damage? Pain nerves (the nerves that transmit pain sensations) aren't necessarily tied to damage.





gpseymour said:


> You're just restating what you said before. Does pressing a nerve until it starts to hurt actually cause damage? Pain nerves (the nerves that transmit pain sensations) aren't necessarily tied to damage.


Yrs, the nervous system doesn't function correctly because it's damaged


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## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> No, that there's only pain if you've gone past the point of elasticity.


Bend your finger back until it runs out of movement, that the elasticity gone, no pain, bend it back another inch, pain


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## jobo (Jun 15, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Um, nope. Still a strawman.


If you didn't say I was wrong theN m we agree I'm right,


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2018)

jobo said:


> I
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The study that statement is based on (Jensen, Sabine A., Arnoud Arntz, and Sabine Bouts. “Anxiety and Pain: Epinephrine-induced Hyperalgesia and Attentional Influences.” _Pain _76 (1998) 309-316. _SciVerse_. Web. 4 April 2012.) states that there was a small increase in pain due to electrical stimulation, when epinephrine was injected peripherally. It's a pretty big leap to generalizing that to non-electrical stimulation and centrally-introduced (natural) epinephrine. For the only other pain they refer to in the abstract (heat-related pain), response was reduced. I don't have access to the full article, so can't see what they say about pressure-based pain (which was part of their study), but it not being mentioned in the abstract makes it likely there was either no differentiation or nothing usable in their data.

I don't see anything to alter my previous understanding that adrenaline load (especially coupled with other stress hormones) reduces pain response.


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## Martial D (Jun 15, 2018)

Chokes don't hurt, but nobody is more compliant than an unconscious person(right Bill Cosby?)


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yrs, the nervous system doesn't function correctly because it's damaged


Take a look at some of the information on this site: Pain is Weird: A Volatile, Misleading Sensation. It is entirely possible for pain to be generated by the brain - no injury required. That's why I keep asking what injury you're saying is occurring: we have sufficient evidence that it's entirely possible for pain to exist without injury, that we need to always ask what the injury is, rather than simply assuming it exists.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 16, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yrs, the nervous system doesn't function correctly because it's damaged




That's not how pressure work, you're not damaging the nerve you've impinging it usually against bone or you are restricting blood flow.
You'd damage the tissue around it fore doing anything yo the nerve.
Your body sends main response to get you to stop doing it.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 16, 2018)

Find me a video of defense lab being used in 1. Resistant training 2. In a street fight.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 16, 2018)

Further evidence that DL is a $$$ grab






If Andy believes so strongly in the DNA system, why is he using the ATA krav maga curriculum with DNA nailed to it?


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 16, 2018)

Why is a man with little practical firearms training (no shooting statics on a range doesn't count.) teaching firearms techniques.? 

http://theevolutionofkrav.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/23_03-D.L.-Sesion-297-1-1024x683.jpg

Its like someone learned CAR from a movie.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 18, 2018)

Any more questions or are we done?


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 19, 2018)

Malos1979 said:


> That Krav video made me laugh, he probably realised that the term "Krav Maga" gets more hits on Youtube than "DefenceLab".



We have a winner, he met Bill Clarke of the ata at a seminar around the time of the Batman films.

Its ATA krav maga with the stupid rings and obsession with frames thrown in.

All the defense lab internal operations are now closely modeled on the ata instructor programme, it's a gigantic pyramid scheme.

You sign people on as instructors, they open a school and sign people on as instructors.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 19, 2018)

Malos1979 said:


> That Krav video made me laugh, he probably realised that the term "Krav Maga" gets more hits on Youtube than "DefenceLab".



Also notice how nothing is really said and its just word soup.


Advanced inspirational upgrades?


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## Martial D (Jun 19, 2018)

dam·age
ˈdamij/
_noun_

1.
physical harm caused to something in such a way as to impair its value, usefulness, or normal function.
synonyms: harm, destruction, vandalism; 
Pain != Damage


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## jobo (Jun 19, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> We have a winner, he met Bill Clarke of the ata at a seminar around the time of the Batman films.
> 
> Its ATA krav maga with the stupid rings and obsession with frames thrown in.
> 
> ...


It's looking more and more like you have a personal Greviance against the guy,


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 19, 2018)

jobo said:


> It's looking more and more like you have a personal Greviance against the guy,



Against who?


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## jobo (Jun 19, 2018)

veritasAequitas said:


> Against who?


Andy thingy


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## GreatUniter (Sep 17, 2018)

@jobo , @veritasAequitas , you are both right and wrong at the same time. Mr. @jobo , you are right when you say that going down on the ground in a street fight is a no-go, because most of the street fights (but not all) are chaotic and involve more than 1 opponent, and if you fall there are chances that you can be hurt badly. So, in this way, bjj is not good. Mr. @veritasAequitas you are also right with your opinion that DL is not good system because it's not real and doesn't train you for real situations. However, you are both wrong because all martial arts (be it systems, traditional martial arts or some movies-fu) are limited, because they are creations from people, and people make mistakes all the times.

No martial art or system is proven to work 100% on the street. It depends only on the practitioners. In my life until now, I have seen good and bad martial artist. It does not mean that a martial art or system is bad. You have good and bad instructors/teachers of DL, bjj, systema, jkd, karate, boxing, kung fu etc etc. It really depends on the practitioner, not the martial art, because like I said, no martial art/system works 100%. However, what works 80-90% of the time is the ability to adapt for different situations (including running away).

Let me explain from my point of view. First of all, I have a lot of street fighting experience, usually one on 2 or more opponents, *without formal* martial arts training in those years, only some pad drills, boxing bag, basic wrestling moves (now I'm studying martial arts). In my younger days I saw and participated in a lot of street fights. I inflicted pain in people, people have injured me (thanks God nothing serious). Eye gouges, headbutts, groin strikes/grabs, close-combat grabs/clinches, chokes, biting, vital point strikes and other "dirty" moves are best weapons for self defense when it comes to bare-hand/unarmed street fighting. But also running away is one of the best self defense tactics ever invented. One must know when to fight and when to run away from physical contact (yes, I also have ran away from lot of fights, because the situations were not in my favor). It really depends on the situation.

All martial arts and self defense systems are good, but nearly all there are lacking one thing: they don't teach you when to retreat and run away from fight, and most of them don't teach you how to adapt to different self defense approach. But it doesn't mean that it's not included in a specific martial art. Most of the instructors won't teaching you that (like everywhere, there are exceptions). Also, most of the teachers won't teach you how to adapt to changes in fighting, that is a must in fighting and self - defense imo. Fighting with drunkards, chaotic bar/disco fights, with a lot of defocusing around you (loud music, screaming, partial vision impairments etc) are something that every self defense instructor that is serious about teaching must include in their so called "live training". Even tma instructors must include these things in training because these are most present  things in modern life self defense situations. It's way different from past times training and self defense scenarios that occurred in those times.

Does it mean that a martial art/system is bad? Absolutely not. Does it mean a practitioner/instructor/teacher/master/grandmaster is bad? Maybe, but not always. There are people that are good at martial arts, but not at fighting. Also, people that are good at fighting, but not talented in martial arts. It really depends on the practitioners. If most martial arts/systems teachers/instructors include in their teaching some live training like I said before, the martial art/system (be it boxing, mma, krav maga, dl, bjj.....) will not matter. What will matter will be the effort a practitioner is making to learn something effective. Even combat sports/tournament martial arts can be effective with proper "live training" (when we talk about self defense situations, not ring/cage fighting).

P.S. There are plenty of good people and things around that you can learn something from, even on the internet. Read some books of Masutatsu Oyama, Gichin Funakoshi, Motobu Choki on practical fighting/karate, watch videos of Mr. Iain Abernethy's practical kata, listen to what Mr. Jesse Enkamp have to say about fighting/karate, Mr. Lyoto Machida's thinking about karate/mma, Gracie and Machado about practical bjj, read Bruce Lee's books about fighting/jkd, watch videos/demonstrations of krav maga/kapap of Mr. Avi Nardia, Roy Elghanayan, Lior Offenbach etc etc. You can learn useful things from anybody if you are open minded enough for learning. There are bad teachers, but also very good martial art/system teachers/practitoners that are publicly available. Everything works, except magic/chi fighting .

Peace and sorry for my english and the long post.


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## Martial D (Sep 17, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> Everything works, except magic/chi fighting



How very politique. Incorrect, but you probably didn't hurt any feelings so good job.


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## jobo (Sep 17, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> @jobo , @veritasAequitas , you are both right and wrong at the same time. Mr. @jobo , you are right when you say that going down on the ground in a street fight is a no-go, because most of the street fights (but not all) are chaotic and involve more than 1 opponent, and if you fall there are chances that you can be hurt badly. So, in this way, bjj is not good. Mr. @veritasAequitas you are also right with your opinion that DL is not good system because it's not real and doesn't train you for real situations. However, you are both wrong because all martial arts (be it systems, traditional martial arts or some movies-fu) are limited, because they are creations from people, and people make mistakes all the times.
> 
> No martial art or system is proven to work 100% on the street. It depends only on the practitioners. In my life until now, I have seen good and bad martial artist. It does not mean that a martial art or system is bad. You have good and bad instructors/teachers of DL, bjj, systema, jkd, karate, boxing, kung fu etc etc. It really depends on the practitioner, not the martial art, because like I said, no martial art/system works 100%. However, what works 80-90% of the time is the ability to adapt for different situations (including running away).
> 
> ...


Theres a lot there, lets pick them one at a time, there are not good martial artists who cant fight, there are perhaps ma that have gone a long way in their gradings, but if that doesnt result in them being able to out up a robust defence against most people, then they are not good martial artists, artists perhaps,


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## GreatUniter (Sep 18, 2018)

jobo said:


> Theres a lot there, lets pick them one at a time, there are not good martial artists who cant fight, there are perhaps ma that have gone a long way in their gradings, but if that doesnt result in them being able to out up a robust defence against most people, then they are not good martial artists, artists perhaps,








One of my personal favorites


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