# Kenpo in the 21st Century



## Old Fat Kenpoka

I've managed to aggravate many of you with my "Olympian Pontifications" on Kenpo, Kenpo ranking, Kenpo Groundfighting, the usefullness of Kata, and a variety of related topics. 

Now, I'd like to give everyone a chance to voice their opinions:

What direction do you think Kenpo should take in the 21st Century?  

1)  Should it be dramatically altered to incorporate new developments in technique and training developed outside of Kenpo in the last 10 years or so?

2)  Should it evolve carefully adding and refining techniques within the current bounds of the style?

3)  Should Kenpoists seek to preserve the art as it currently exists with little or no change out of respect for Mr. Parker and his teachings?

4)  Should Kenpo people band together, find me and pulverize me?


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## Touch Of Death

So far Were at 100% woo hoo! I feel that training should reflect the basic hazards one might encounter on the street. If an instructors nostalgic story telling interferes with an impending reality, it might be time to reflect and see which dimensional stage of action your system covers and which styles will compliment you current training. Its Ok to... "take a look around to see which way the wind blow.", Jim Morrison.


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## Brother John

The only "future" of Kenpo that I have any right/authority or call to speak for is My future in Kenpo.... as it's all I've got.
...and the future's so bright...
well, you know the rest...... 
Your Brother
John


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## superdave

Well, my take on things, for whatever it may be worth, is this.

There are too many egos and too many people watering down the system. The groups need to re-organize into one governing body, sharing all the new material, while refining the older stuff. 

Kenpo will have to evolve in order to survive.  The sad part is there are some Kenpo schools that could not care less about wether the system advances or not. Just as long as the soccer moms pay the big bucks for their child's advancement.


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## c2kenpo

Havent we already been changing gradually as time has gone on. Every time someone teacheskenpo to another person the system will change a bit more since that person may have some groundbreaking idea that may improve kenpo as a whole. 
Mr. Sepulveda in a seminar said it best "Kenpo is just basic movement put together once you know the basics you can become creative."
Take that thought to heart
Thank you Mr. Sepulveda

Journey Well

Dave Gunzburg


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## Kenpodoc

I think the answer is really E) all of the above.

One of Mr. Parker's more brilliant moves was to leave no one clear successor to constrain his art. This has allowed American Kenpo to grow since his death.  As a result we have,

A) Kenpo schools which have tried to adapt to every new martial arts fad.  This is usually unsuccessful but none the less valuable and well worth continuing.

B) Kenpo Concepts Schools which use thew Kenpo base and are carefully expanding and refing the Techniques and training methods.

C) Traditional Chinese, Hawaian, Okinawin, Tracy, Parker schools which strive to preserve a base system and serve as a check on the systems which may too eagerly accept change.

D)  Finally I think all Kenpoists regardless of our training can agree to band together, find Old Fat Kenpoka and pulverize him.  


JEFF


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## Sigung86

It is my thought that we ought to all throw off the ties that bind, disavow Kenpo and become BJ fighters like OFK is demanding ... That would, with the exception of grinding OFK to a pulp, fulfill all the above ... Well... More or less.

The Other real problem I see with all of this is remembering to pronounce my Rs like Hs in the Brazilian thing. :lol:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Kenpodoc, Sigung86: 
I sincerely thank you for your thoughtful replies.

I think you may misunderstand my zealous support for BJJ.  I do think BJJ is awesome, but Kenpo is my primary art.  That's why I choose to call myself Old Fat Kenpoka and not Old Fat BJJ Newbie.  I do think that Kenpo is awesome.  I worry that some of us are occassionally too full of ourselves, too close-minded, and too reverential of the past.  Rence ;-) my crusade to ask Kenpo people to consider alternatives.

c2Kenpo:  
Mr. Sepulveda is one of the best examples of someone true to our heritage, carefully updating teaching methods, and looking toward the future.  I briefly studied at Mr. Sepulveda's school in Santa Clara, CA where he and his staff offer excellent instruction in 18-technique EPAK curriculum, BJJ ground-fighting, and Kickboxing conditioning and technique.  I think it is an excellent model for the future of Kenpo.


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *....  I worry that some of us are occassionally too full of ourselves, too close-minded, and too reverential of the past.  .*



I agree with you here. I think Jeff's comment was a little overzealous but he's entitled to his opinion. He's not a bad guy so don't come down on him too hard. 



> Hence ;-) my crusade to ask Kenpo people to consider alternatives



This is why I stayed out of this conversation! For the last thread like this it came at me from all angles.

I for one say good luck, & happy training. :asian:


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## rmcrobertson

Oh, fiddlesticks.

Here's my problem with all of this "modernizing," kenpo...ah, stuff.

First off, the only justifications I've seen so far amount to a hill of cliches: "empty your cup," "We must expand and grow," "you should be prepared if...," etc. etc., yada yada. Sure, fine, OK. Truisms are true. The only eensy issue is, they don't actually tell anybody anything...and they seem to be coming from folks who either a) haven't really explored what's in kenpo, or b) are arguing for throwing out what's in kenpo. Why's this an improvement?

Second--this "modernization?" Where's it end? First BJJ. Then--what? FMA for sticks? Kali for knives? Something else for guns? It doesn't look like modernization--or rather, it does: the sort of "modernization," that leads to, "planned obsolescence." You know, the endless discovery of new desires, so you need a new car every two-to-four years; the endless creation of new markets, so the whole thing can keep endlessly expanding. How old is kenpo, anyhow? Cripes, guys, you write as if this were some nineteen-hundred-year-old deal...compared with the NEWER! STRONGER! GETS YOUR WHITES WHITER! YOUR COLORS COLOREDER! STEP RIGHT UP...ONLY A DOLLAR (but see Tom Waits' song on this...)

Third: a philosophy resting on the discounting of other people's experience and a rewriting of the past. Some of us have repeatedly noted that we trained some of this, "new," stuff right in the old kenpo school; some of us have several times noted that the discussion of all this, "new," "more modern," "external," stuff is right in Mr. Parker's books, or in the sorts of stuff that folks like Larry Tatum are writing. Others have several times noted that before they gave up fighting as stupid, they never seemed to get into the sorts of situations the modernizers are describing. No effect on the discussion whatsoever. Hm. And as for rewriting--here's the first thing--the FIRST THING--I ever heard about kenpo: "it's karate mixed with cruel Hawaiian street-fighting." Now we can debate the accuracy of that statement from 1987--but given the nature of hawaiian street-fighting from all accounts, and the embedding of such arts as lua in kenpo, I take it as significant.

Fourth: the notion that somewhere out there is perfection. I insist it's a paranoiac notion--the attempt to fill all gaps, coded in contemporary capitalist terms. You know--more technology, shinier technology, that's the cure for everything. I simply don't expect to become a perfected fighter--don't want to, really. I'd like to become a better martial artist.

Fifth: way too much fascination with the idea of fighting and violence. (See Robert Smith's books.) Fundamental to all this modernizing talk are these ideas: a) the streets are so dangerous that you have to be prepared for anything anytime; b) you have to learn to inflict infinite damage, because the streets are filled with extraordinary fighters; c) it is impossible to talk your way out/avoid the trouble in the first place, d) strangers are the enemy. Fiddlesticks, I say. If you think our streets are extraordinarily dangerous, you should read about real danger in other countries...or you need to learn about what cities in Europe were like in, say, 1600. Did you know that if you get shot or stabbed, odds are pretty darn good that you'll know the attacker personally? And just incidentally, you're a lot more likely to drown, or slip and fall in a tub, or get killed in a car accident, or get knocked off by bad diet, than you are to die in a fight...so if we're going to be realistic...how's your tub-fu? still eatin' them Ho-Hos?

Sixth--who's going to "take charge," of all this modernization? I smell the Urge to Incorporate here, especially since the modernizers seem to really need to bring the Good News to us heathen...

Sorry to be a bit cranky about this. I guess I thought that somebody oughta write what a lot of folks who read this are undoubtedly thinking. Then too, it's not easy being a Nattering Nabob of Negativism...

Thanks,
Robert


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## XtremeJ_AKKI

Let's just promote someone to 12th so OFK will hush up already. :rofl:


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## tonbo

I think that, in the 21st century, kenpo will continue to walk the path it is currently walking.  You will have people of all of the above persuasions, taking the art to various extremes.  Some of them will cling to the original art tenaciously, refusing to change *anything*, while others will retain only the kenpo name and a few Parker ideas to tie it to anything else kenpo.

In short, I believe that if you want to know where kenpo will go in the 21st century, then take a look around at where it is now and where it was over the last 10 or so years.  

And I don't believe that pulverizing *anybody* is going to settle any of these arguments.  Even if it's OFK.   

Everybody gots their own 'pinions, tho.

Peace--


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## Kirk

I've said this before, and it has yet to be negated.  I can't say it
factually, though, because I haven't learned the entire system.

I was told, however that once you learn the rules, principles, and
most importantly flow of motion, and all of the concepts and
principles intended in kenpo, then all of those principles can be
seen in other styles and arts.  And that one wouldn't have to 
necessarily study a system to black belt in order to "bring into"
kenpo what you've learned.  

I've heard that Frank Trejo has incorporated some serious sticky 
hands stuff into their kenpo, for example.  But AFAIK, he still 
teaches the original curriculum, to teach you all that Mr Parker 
wanted to teach.


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## Michael Billings

Kirk is correct in that the Principles, Concepts, and Theories are a "framework" or the "paradigm" in which American Kenpoist choose to dissect, analyze, learn, and recombine their study of motion.  The same Principles, Concepts, and Theories can be utilized to make the same critical evaluation of other Arts ... and there is nothing wrong with doing this.  

Where I take issue, is when you combine paradigms, or lack the sophisticatication or time in the Art, to interpret your study of motion in other systems back into the Kenpo framework.  Rather you decide you must "Learn" the other system and that Kenpo is "lacking" something.  That is just one way of looking at it.  That is OFK's paradigm, which I do not happen to buy into.  And yes, I do grapple with BJJ guys, they are frustrating for me, and I am frustrating for them.   I am not doing this any more, but have no problems with my students getting exposure to other Arts ... As long as they "Bring it Home" and allow us to dissect, analyze, associate it with the Kenpo that we practice.  So far I have not lost anyone to BJJ (Knock on wood.)

Yall have a Kenpo Day now!


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Robert:  
Thank you for your post.  I opened this thread to give others a chance to state their positions without being subjugated to my overly opinionated and sometimes ill-begotten arguments.  Your points are very strong and I am glad you are continuing to contribute to the discussion.

XtremeJ_AKKI:
You have given me another idea for a thread and maybe a poll...Do you have any nominees?

Tonbo:  
It is good to hear that at least one person doesn't want to beat me up.

Kirk:  
Your example about Frank Trejo's sticky hands addition to his curriculum is excellent.  That is EXACTLY my point re BJJ in the other threads.  I'm not asking anyone to abandon Kenpo, just to add some ground technique and spend more time on alive training drills.  

Michael: 
Excellent points.  Admittedly, I have not fully explored everything Kenpo has to offer and I know there is more there than I've got.  But by the same argument, Kenpoists have not fully explored BJJ, Judo, FMA, etc. and there is probably something there that we haven't discovered or applied yet.  That's one of my main points about the benefits of cross-training.


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## Touch Of Death

since it is all Kenpo no one is suggesting any one leave kenpo. Arts like BJJ and Escrima offer some unique and specialized training which isn't found in your run of the mill kenpo school. That doesn't mean your Kenpo is bad; it means that it is just possible that your instructor and his traditional methods are starting to look a little limmited as of late. No Kenpo school should expect to loose any one to BJJ unless the instructor gives an ultimatum. Deciding that the picture frame of motion that you study is more than enough to get you out of any situation is all well and good, but more and more people thinking outside the box. Remembering fights from the good old days that didn't require ground skills isn't going to help you in the very near future; it will be just that... the good old days.


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## Michael Billings

I just don't agree with what "fully explored" means, and the extent to which we, as Kenpoist, immerse ourselves in other Arts.  I still want to use my Kenpo nomenclature and structure to organize my experience in Shotokan, TKD, Hung Gar, Judo, BJJ, etc.  It is just a different way of looking at things than you have.  

No harm, no foul ... I just want to retain my Kenpo roots and use that as the filter through which I expand my knowledge of motion and fighting skills.

I think you, and others, came across pretty strong on this and other threads, as pro-BJJ and to some extent, whether it was your intent or not, discounted Kenpo as your primary Art.  It certainly appeared as if you were pro-BJJ to the exclusion of you Kenpo roots ... regardless of your reassurances otherwise.  This led to some of the responses you have gotten and alienating some of the other posters, or just flat pissing them off.  

Oss


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## Touch Of Death

I think it all boils down to your instructor and not your instuction.   If you are continualy told that what you are studying is all you will ever need, chances are you are going to believe it. Rather than experiencing the vastness of information and eagerly trying soak it all in, it seems that all to many people are being fitted for a big ol' pair of blinders. Grapplers might try to grapple at the wrong situations but Kenpo guys should never choose an inapropriate range, position, or manuever, target, angle, and cover without "considering" the best course of action. Cross trainers see the similarities and it would seem that Kenpo guys don't want to see beyond their training floor.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

24 hours into the poll...will any of the 7 guys who voted to dramatically change the art volunteer to help protect me from the 4 who want to pulverize me?  My new BJJ techniques won't work against multiple attackers -- and my Kenpo is not up to snuff.


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *24 hours into the poll...will any of the 7 guys who voted to dramatically change the art volunteer to help protect me from the 4 who want to pulverize me?  My new BJJ techniques won't work against multiple attackers -- and my Kenpo is not up to snuff. *



I'll help ya, especially since Mr. Farnsworth is hanging around. That means the Goldendragon ain't too far behind!


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Uh oh, if Mr. Conatser jumps in I am toast.  Both intellectually and physically.  I definitely won't be able to do any of my new BJJ ground techniques against him!


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## RCastillo

Well, certainly most anything can use polishing, modification, but as a whole, the base of the system should be pretty much intact. That should provide for alot right there. What works for one, may not work for another. Let the nature of the individual, and the instructor work on that together to find the answer and apply where need be.

Thanks:asian:


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Uh oh, if Mr. Conatser jumps in I am toast.  Both intellectually and physically. *



Don't worry, I got a "special Kryptonite" for him!


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Don't worry, I got a "special Kryptonite" for him! *



I will refrain from commenting on this post.


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Well, certainly most anything can use polishing, modification, but as a whole, the base of the system should be pretty much intact. That should provide for alot right there. What works for one, may not work for another. Let the nature of the individual, and the instructor work on that together to find the answer and apply where need be.
> 
> Thanks:asian: *



I think that's the best post you ever made!:asian:


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I will refrain from commenting on this post. *


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I think that's the best post you ever made!:asian: *



Thanks!


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## Michael Billings

... with Jason, Ricardo.  Well stated.

Oss


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## Fastmover

When it is said the "base of the system should be pretty much intact," Im curious what the base is?


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *When it is said the "base of the system should be pretty much intact," Im curious what the base is? *



I look at it as the base techniques that are already established, the groupings according to the type of attack, and how they relate. From there, as others have already taught me, the possibilities are endless.:asian:


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## Kenpodoc

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Kenpodoc, Sigung86:
> I sincerely thank you for your thoughtful replies.
> 
> I think you may misunderstand my zealous support for BJJ.  I do think BJJ is awesome, but Kenpo is my primary art.  That's why I choose to call myself Old Fat Kenpoka and not Old Fat BJJ Newbie.  I do think that Kenpo is awesome.  I worry that some of us are occassionally too full of ourselves, too close-minded, and too reverential of the past.  Rence ;-) my crusade to ask Kenpo people to consider alternatives.
> 
> c2Kenpo:
> Mr. Sepulveda is one of the best examples of someone true to our heritage, carefully updating teaching methods, and looking toward the future.  I briefly studied at Mr. Sepulveda's school in Santa Clara, CA where he and his staff offer excellent instruction in 18-technique EPAK curriculum, BJJ ground-fighting, and Kickboxing conditioning and technique.  I think it is an excellent model for the future of Kenpo. *



OFK
I actually agree with your zealous support of BJJ.  Personally if I could I would also explore Systema and Gokor's grappling system.  

I only suggested D) Pulverize OFK because Kenpoists love to attack one another.  

Enjoy the BJJ, take it back to your school and find how it all fits together and then share that info with us all.  Mr. Parker had a Black Belt in Judo and was an excellent Boxer.  He constantly worked with artists from other systems and grew his own. I have problems with people who are afraid of change but also feel the kenpo world is best with a mixture of traditionalists and rengades. 

Take the Kenpo techniques and try to end them with BJJ type submissions and take the BJJ and look for Kenpo/ striking solutions. It will all make you a better artist.

I'm not one of the 7 who voted to dramatically change the art but I will happily jump in and help defend against the 4 who want to pulverize you. (Sounds like fun and Kenpoka should stick together.)

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I agree with you here. I think Jeff's comment was a little overzealous but he's entitled to his opinion. He's not a bad guy so don't come down on him too hard.
> 
> 
> 
> This is why I stayed out of this conversation! For the last thread like this it came at me from all angles.
> 
> I for one say good luck, & happy training. :asian: *



But I want to be a "Bad" guy.   

Jeff


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *But I want to be a "Bad" guy.
> 
> Jeff *




:rofl: :rofl:  I guess that comes in time. 

I think I'm far from being a bad guy.


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *OFK
> I actually agree with your zealous support of BJJ.  Personally if I could I would also explore Systema and Gokor's grappling system.
> 
> I only suggested D) Pulverize OFK because Kenpoists love to attack one another.  *



Ok, I didn't take the comment how you meant it to be read.:asian:


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *:rofl: :rofl:  I guess that comes in time.
> 
> I think I'm far from being a bad guy. *



Oh yeah? Think again................


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Oh yeah? Think again................ *



Listen:

You better be still warming up in your garage 'cause I'm on the way to take over Corpus Christi!

Oh yeah, and last but not least; I've got your number.


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Listen:
> 
> You better be still warming up in your garage 'cause I'm on the way to take over Corpus Christi!
> 
> Oh yeah, and last but not least; I've got your number. *



Ok, it's air conditioned,  matted for your saftey, and convenience! Afterwards, you buy me Chinese dinner, Yes?:asian: 

Good thing you're coming, need sparring partner!


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Kenpodoc:   Thanks for your support.  At least I know I will have medical aid when the other Kenpoists catch up to me.  

I'd love to take my BJJ back to my Kenpo school.  But my BJJ school is now occupying the building where my Kenpo school used to be.  Please see my thread "My school went up in flames!" in the Bad Budo forum on this site for the sad story.  here is the link:  http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8462  I've been keeping my Kenpo up at several other schools in the last 8 years...


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## tonbo

> It is good to hear that at least one person doesn't want to beat me up.



OFK:

No problemo, man.  Like I said, everyone's got their own opinions.  Personally, I have a very short list of people that I want to beat up.  Real short.  And its comprised of people that have *personally* pissed me off.....*seriously* pissed me off.

And you ain't on that list...

Nothin' but respect for the MT folks.  

Peace--


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Ok, it's air conditioned,  matted for your saftey, and convenience!  *



Excellent!!!!!........After you are done throwing your roundhouse kicks I'll shoot the swing single leg takedown on 'ya. 



> Afterwards, you buy me Chinese dinner, Yes?



I'm not sure how that works but after beat up session is over 'ya won't feel like going out to eat anything. 



> Good thing you're coming, need sparring partner!



Sure thing, I haven't put pads on since being at Seig's place.  You know I need to brush up on some skills.


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Excellent!!!!!........After you are done throwing your roundhouse kicks I'll shoot the swing single leg takedown on 'ya.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how that works but after beat up session is over 'ya won't feel like going out to eat anything.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure thing, I haven't put pads on since being at Seig's place.  You know I need to brush up on some skills. *



Roundhouse kicks? Naw, I'm a shooter, I like to get inside myself in a hurry.

You beat me up? LOL:rofl: 

No, no brush needed, just bring your gear.


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Roundhouse kicks? Naw, I'm a shooter, I like to get inside myself in a hurry.*



Cool, then it sounds like we will have fun. 



> You beat me up? LOL



:rofl:


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Cool, then it sounds like we will have fun.
> 
> 
> 
> :rofl: *



Don't forget, you buy Chinese dinner!:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo

> Robertson:
> 
> First off, the only justifications I've seen so far amount to a hill of cliches: "empty your cup," "We must expand and grow," "you should be prepared if...," etc. etc., yada yada.



How about this, alot of the older techniques suck and won't work or have severe weaknesses that should be addressed.  If you would like to debate the physics behind I'm all ears.



> Second--this "modernization?" Where's it end? First BJJ. Then--what? FMA for sticks? Kali for knives? Something else for guns? It doesn't look like modernization--or rather, it does: the sort of "modernization," that leads to, "planned obsolescence." You know, the endless discovery of new desires



This is directed towards everyone out there.  How come everything is black or white?  Neither of the extremes will be good for the system rather a balance between the traditionalist and expansionalist mindsets should be found.



> Third: a philosophy resting on the discounting of other people's experience and a rewriting of the past. Some of us have repeatedly noted that we trained some of this, "new," stuff right in the old kenpo school; some of us have several times noted that the discussion of all this, "new," "more modern," "external," stuff is right in Mr. Parker's books, or in the sorts of stuff that folks like Larry Tatum are writing.



Did Mr. Parker not try to incorporate a number of the ideas, concepts, and principles from other arts into his own.  For example didn't he study judo?  So if it was good enough for Parker why would it be sacrilege for the rest of us?  Also if you think Larry Tatum is teaching BJJ in his school why don't you just run down to Jean Jacque Machado's place in Torrance.  I'm sure he'll be accomodating.



> Fourth: the notion that somewhere out there is perfection. I insist it's a paranoiac notion--the attempt to fill all gaps, coded in contemporary capitalist terms. You know--more technology, shinier technology, that's the cure for everything. I simply don't expect to become a perfected fighter--don't want to, really. I'd like to become a better martial artist.



Well I agree.  I also don't think we'll ever know everything about our universe or the complex science that governs it, perhaps we should quit exploring and just accept our lowliness.  Sounds like a great plan to me.  Or wait, perhaps we could learn as much as we can during our journey so that we can pass it on to the next generation to help them with their journey.  You know that whole stewardship thing.



> Fifth: way too much fascination with the idea of fighting and violence. (See Robert Smith's books.) Fundamental to all this modernizing talk are these ideas: a) the streets are so dangerous that you have to be prepared for anything anytime; b) you have to learn to inflict infinite damage, because the streets are filled with extraordinary fighters; c) it is impossible to talk your way out/avoid the trouble in the first place, d) strangers are the enemy.



I love kenpo because it sometimes gives me the much needed distraction from the rest of my life.  It gives me a common ground from which a number of my friendships are based, and as an added bonus I think it's made me a better fighter than before I started.  Why spend your life training in something if it won't make you better?  That just seems stupid.  Also, everyone who gets on the computer will talk a mean game, but very few would not think to try and talk themselves out of a situation.  It's the scared little child in us all.



> Sixth--who's going to "take charge," of all this modernization? I smell the Urge to Incorporate here, especially since the modernizers seem to really need to bring the Good News to us heathen



Seems to me like it's doing just fine without a large governing body trying to reign supreme.

What it comes down to is this, in 2 generations no one will care what you, or I, or anyone else thought about the future of kenpo. "They" will, inevitabley, push in the direction of their choosing and there is nothing that can be done about it.  Take comfort in the inevitability.


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## rmcrobertson

OK, fine.

First off, countering an indictment of cliches such as "empty your cup," with the claim that, "some of the techniques...suck," is hardly what I would call discussion of the issue. It has been my experience that the techs do NOT suck, our understanding/teaching/application of them often sucks. For example, I've seen and read a fair number of folks who run the techs and attacks in a dead fashion, complain that the attack is sterile and the tech dead, and then try to rewrite the tech to compensate for what was their problem in the first place.

Second off, I see that you missed the point of my comment on modernization. However, I agree that this whole imposition of a binary opposition between "traditional," and "modern," is wrong-headed--as I pretty much noted in a previous post. 

Third, why exactly do I have to duplicate Mr. Parker's research? Generally, this is called, "reinventing the wheel," and though it is necessary to try and make sure that the particular wheel didn't need reinventing, it is also necessary to realize that the wheel's just fine as it is. As for Mr. Tatum teaching Machado jiu-jitsu--please re-read. This isn't even close to what I wrote. And my running down there so I can get my *** kicked, why would I go play on somebody else's turf, by their rules, and expect anything else? I might also note that my whole point was that I don't plan to be haring hither and yon...

On your fourth point, looks like we agree.

On your fifth--I'm afraid I'm not talking about improving, or struggling towards that Man of La Mancha unreachable star. Of course, one should do that. I'm talking about the particular star too many are, I think, reaching towards. I'm talking about their motivation for reaching towards this goal of perfected violence, the fantasy of infinite danger, the idea of treating martial arts as a big Sharper Image store...

And again, we seem to agree on the sixth point, though I may be a bit more suspicious about money.

All in all, fair enough, I guess. Thanks.


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## Fastmover

CThe whole premise of this thread in my opinion seems to be whether Kenpo should evolve to meet the needs of the martial artist of the day. If history of Ed Parker tells us anything, change is inevitable simply because as individuals we should be constantly learning and growing. Mr. Parker did this so why shouldnt we as well? Mr. Parker was Also open to outside opinion and thought and Im sure he was influenced by others 
point of view. Are we in Kenpo so arrogant to believe that we have all the answers and discount the perspective of others? Other opinions may enlighten our journey by providing a unique perspective. 

I do not believe that Kenpo as a system will ever consolidate into one governing body, nor do I believe it should. There is to many differing opinions and a varying need to tailor the process of learning the system that best fits all the individuals out there. Everyone has an opinion, and within the martial arts we are all very passionate about  it. Thankfully, there is an abundance of associations each with their own method of teaching principles of Kenpo. Some feel that the many splintered associations weakens
Kenpo, I say it strengthens it. There is something out there for everyone and the uniqueness of each makes us all stronger.

I threw out a question earlier regarding the base of Kenpo. The techniques within the Web of knowledge are simply tools that help instill the principles and concepts within the individual.  Change is interesting because if we follow the principles of Kenpo; again I refer to Mr Parker, there could be ways of changing the sequences in the techniques to solidify and economize a students rate of learning the principles of Kenpo. Principles are the base of our system in my opinion. Its the principles within Kenpo that act as a guide, that not only help me understand my motion within Kenpo, but the motion contained within other martial arts as well, BJJ in my personal case. I remember hearing how Bruce Lee would come to Ed Parker and even though Mr Parker may not have been familiar With the sequences that Lee was doing, he never the less could apply and explain the principles.  Let be me clear that the principles do not change, the basics of physics for example are consistent, but our methods of explaining and the vehicles for understanding them should. 

Sorry for the ramble!

Just my opinion,

JC


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## MJS

Once Master Parker passed away, alot of people broke off and created new organizations.  While he was alive, he was able to keep things the way he wanted to do them.  You could probably take 3 of his top students, ask them to perform and explain a tech. and you will no doubt get 3 very different responses.  Parker changed Kenpo even from the way he first learned it.  He made it more up to date with todays times.  In my opinion, the only way to keep an art growing and up to date, is with change.  Sometimes the changes are for the better, sometimes they are not.  If adding a trapping movement from JKD or a grappling move from BJJ is the answer, then I see nothing wrong with doing it.  

We all seem to get into the argument about BJJ, and how its not good against mult. attackers.  First, how many of the people who teach mult. attacker defense, has actually had experience with the??  You will not be fighting  5 guys at one time, and have them attack you one at a time.  NO, you will have 2 at a time, or 2 holding you, while the 3rd punches you.  Its easy to teach this in a controlled fashion, but under the stress of the street, its very different.  Also, what happens if you get attacked from the rear, where you  can't see the attack coming, and you get knocked to the ground.  You should at least know some basics on the ground to defend yourself, and then work your way back to your feet.  Also, not every fight that you encounter will involve mult. people.

Despite what some people think about sayings, such as empty your cup.  Well, that is probably one of the biggest problems with some people today.  They are so set in their ways and beliefs, thinking that they know all that there is to know.  Well, that is not the case.  I believe that there is something to be learned from every style.  If I can attend a seminar on JKD, and make a movement work for me, then I'll add it to my bag of tricks.  The same goes with a kick from TKD, or a lock from Juijitsu.  Bruce Lee did this and look at JKD today.  It is probably one of the most complete arts around.  

Mike


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## Kenpo Yahoo

Directed to Mr. Robertson:

I am open to a debate about the techniques.  Am I claiming to know everything about them? No, but I have seen, experienced, and/or talked with various people about certain techniques which I feel to be obsolete.  This is either because "I" don't believe that they will work (and I'm willing to provide explanations) or I think that the same outcome could be accomplished in a more efficient manner.

Several of the old IKKA club defenses were TESTED out.  Mr. Mills had a club in his right hand, resting on his right shoulder.  The guy who did the defenses was, I believe, a 5th at the time (wearing a lot of protective gear of course) and didn't stop the club once.  All he had to do was shoot in a do the first block, and he was never able to do so.

Gun defenses:  How many of you that practice these techniques have ever actually fired a weapon?  Probably a few, but the overwhelming majority has not.  {DO not try this kids}
The last time I was at the gun range, a friend of mine was nice enough to run a drill for me.  Facing 12 o'clock  he aimed his 9mm to about 1:30 and told me that he wouldn't fire until he saw me move (oh yeah, I didn't have ear protection on at the time).  When I lunged in the flash, and concusive "boom" from the bullet leaving the barrel resulted in an extremely disoriented defense ( i.e. almost none at all).  Now granted that was the first time I had ever done that, and with a little practice I could probably do a lot better, but my point is that the vast majority who have never had the gun go off by their head would probably react just like I did.  Am I advocating that we all go deaf from gun training?  No, but there is something to be said for a realistic understanding of what you're up against.

Just some thoughts.  I'm always open to debate, but I only check this board every couple of days.
Peace


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## Touch Of Death

I met a man here in Spokane who trained in a style of Kenpo that broke away in the 60s. He actualy said to me that Mr parker had it toguether in the 60s but sort of lost touch with the reality of the street in the 70s. Pehaps he has a point with some over-sophistication that may or may not be going on; however, I realized I was talking to a person that didn't even want to look at what Mr. Parker had been working on at the time of his death. His mind was made up and closed thank you very much. I listened to him bad mouth my school a little and politly left his studio.
All martial arts specialize in some aspect of fighting. They gain wisdoms from the experience. So why in gods name would we choose to ignore the fastest growing martial art in the country?
why are the simple counters to these very kenpo negating locks and holds so distastfull to us? Instead of just saying "make the ground your freind." Why choose not to make the ground our freind? The techniques only can give you the gist of a concept. It is up to you to explore it...    not ignore it.


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## Rob_Broad

Evolution has to be gradual or it is a mutation.  We should let things continue to evolve as they do and not try to force it.  There is a lot of good stuff out there, and at the same time a lot of BS.   Lets just sit back and enjoy the ride.


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## Jill666

Wow, it that the voice of reason I hear? Naaah- 
:rofl:


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *Evolution has to be gradual or it is a mutation.  We should let things continue to evolve as they do and not try to force it.  There is a lot of good stuff out there, and at the same time a lot of BS.   Lets just sit back and enjoy the ride. *



I ain't changing , no matter what! (Sounds of nails scrapping, leanving marks on the floor as I'm being dragged out)


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## Rob_Broad

You act like I am a brash, uncouth, S.O.B.  There are times to call a spade a spade, and there are times to let nature take its course.  The state of American Kenpo today is very tenuous at times.  Occaisionally a cool head can get farther that someone trying to impose their will.


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## Touch Of Death

sitting back is not the answer. You either modernize or you do not. Sitting around waiting while others pass you up sort of leaves you without an advantage. Avoiding conflict will make it so you don't have to know what they might know; however, if your a loud mouth like me, conflict finds you. Pehaps if one avoids conflict it negates the "need" to train in the martial arts at all. If you arent training because that little insecurity we all have demands it, you are there for another reason. Well what is that reason? Is it because your instructor is famous, you need to loose a little weight, you freinds are doing it? Love of the art? If its love somthing motivates you to love it. What might that be?
just remember this, your instructor is a business man and it may not be in his best interest for you to seek outside information. If he or she has somehow convinced you that the package he sells is complete. You got duped. If you wont look outside the box because you are endeared to the "tradition" or the "mystique"(of a demystified art) then you are duping yourself.


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## rmcrobertson

In response, the first thing I'd write is this: give me an example of a technique, describe the attack, tell me why you think it doesn't work, and--if we know the same Parker techs--I can most likely tell you how to make the thing work fine. If not, I'll check with Clyde--who reamed myself and others today in class on just this issue...I can personally tell you that Glancing Salute, Clutching Feathers, Glancing Spear, Circling Fans, and Securing the Storm freakin' work.

Moreover, it has been my experience that the folks who argue that "the technique doesn't work," are wrong. The way they do it doesn't work...and they (myself included) have a failure of imagination concerning figuring the damn thing out. It has also been my experience that some folks throw out chunks of the kenpo system on the grounds that they are outmoded or don't work, then turn about and claim that kenpo is missing all sorts of stuff.

The system is of a piece, folks. You throw out techs, forms, sets, you miss out on the way things are interconnected. Then, sure, things don't work right.

I reject the notion that there's some simple division between "tradition," and "modern," here. In the first place, this sort of simple binary opposition does not describe this sort of complex reality, which is at the very least caught up in a dialectical relation. In the second, the idea of Darwinian "evolution," being advanced here is a problem for two reasons: a) it's a truism (hey? you mean you don't want to evolve?, and b) it supposes a continual process of "on-the-street," testing that is either extremely unlikely or actively immoral.

And yes, I have fired a handgun. And an air rifle, and a rifle, and a shotgun, and a Sharps .50 for that matter. And I liked Jackie Chan's explanation of how to avoid squinting and flinching. And range safety is very important.

One of Jacques Derrida's very best (and most intelligible) comments is this: "Coherence in contradiction expresses the force of a desire." I wonder about the desire expressed here, in an insistence upon jamming an extraordinarily complex matter into an "either/or," binarism.


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## ProfessorKenpo

Locking Horns and Obscure Claws LOL.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## rmcrobertson

I forgot about Obscure Claws. And I left out Locking Horns because you showed William and I the technique's use against someone attempt a suplex, and we agreed that Locking Horns can't be a kenpo technique, because kenpo doesn't include anything to do with ground fighting or grappling.

In other words, there is no Locking Horns.


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## Fastmover

Evolving forward in Kenpo is a complex dilemma.  I agree with Rob in that we Need to be careful how to proceed so that we are not changing for the sack of being different. At the same time I believe that we should not be bound by tradition and not do something because thats the way it is in the manual.  Mr. Parker was not a traditionalist and in fact he was a rebel of sorts within the martial art community.  Even while he was still alive he was often criticized for adjusting the system through the years, some of the loudest came from within Kenpo itself. 

Logic must be our guide as we train. I like what Clyde says, "Put down your purse and lets bang!" When we step on the mat we must hold nothing back and train with everything we have. Technique lines are nice but learning dynamic motion against a static display outlives its purpose after sometime. Our method and
intensity of training will determine how we evolve with our individual skills and within the system of Kenpo as well. 

So........Put down your purses and start banging!!!

JC


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## rmcrobertson

I agree with the last poster's sentiments in many ways, but let me repeat: it is not, repeat not, a matter of "traditionalist," vs. "reform." 

In this case, here's the reason: everything the "reformers," and "evolutionists," want is available, within kenpo, the way I've been taught it. 

If your technique lines are dull and static, well, work for better technique lines. If your dummy doesn't resist, a) recognize the situation and put 'em where you need 'em, b) teach 'em how, c) learn to dummy better yourself.

Certainly and obviously, some of Mr. Parker's theories may still need questioning. Fine. But the structure of that questioning IS BUILT INTO THE KENPO SYSTEM. For that matter, one of Parker's achievements was to get people to question martial arts at all.

I should be clear about something. I suspect that behind some of these calls for, "reform," are folks who want to be "leading," the "development." I suspect it's a question of power--and that's fine, but let's call it what it is.


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## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I forgot about Obscure Claws. And I left out Locking Horns because you showed William and I the technique's use against someone attempt a suplex, and we agreed that Locking Horns can't be a kenpo technique, because kenpo doesn't include anything to do with ground fighting or grappling.
> 
> In other words, there is no Locking Horns. *



I hate it when you can quote me that well LOL.   There was also Thrusting Lance, Fatal Cross, and Protecting Fans, and those weren't grappling techniques.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I forgot about Obscure Claws. And I left out Locking Horns because you showed William and I the technique's use against someone attempt a suplex, and we agreed that Locking Horns can't be a kenpo technique, because kenpo doesn't include anything to do with ground fighting or grappling.
> 
> In other words, there is no Locking Horns. *



Any time someone grabs you, either by the hair, shirt, or head or arm lock, it is considered grappling....standing grappling.  So, it does contain some form of grappling, just nothing on the ground.

Mike


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## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Any time someone grabs you, either by the hair, shirt, or head or arm lock, it is considered grappling....standing grappling.  So, it does contain some form of grappling, just nothing on the ground.
> 
> Mike *



It was meant as a joke from some of the other threads.   Locking Horns is indeed a Kenpo SD technique, we just like to cut up concerning those that deal with a grappling aspect.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Touch Of Death

Working a technique that avoids a grappling situation IS NOT GRAPPLING. Yes they can be effective against a grappler, but for the most part they teach that strikes can aid you in your grappling. Deciding that Ed Parker learned judo so you wouldn't have to is about the most rediculous thing I've heard in quite a while. Hey I got one of those philisophical questions. Would William James think you were better off doing an in depth study of grappling concepts?


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## rmcrobertson

Actually, TOD, the particular approach to Locking Horns that we were discussing teaches something other than strikes. Beyond joking, I was responding to the claim that there isn't any grappling, and ground work, or even any responses to the attacks of grapplers of various sorts.

Further, what I wrote didn't have anything to do with learning or not learning judo. It had to do with the repeated claim that none of the stuff I've worked over years is in kenpo. It had to do with the repeated claim that Mr. Parker left kenpo somehow deeply flawed, incomplete, full of vulnerabilities, and that the way to handle this was to go learn all the other arts in which kenpo was deficient. I reject these claims, on grounds I've previously stated.

And none of those have to do with the assumption that I'm anything vaguely resembling god's gift to martial arts, or that my kenpo is perfect, or anything resembling such claims. In fact, I have repeatedly stated that I'm not even remotely interested in becoming a "fighter," in the UFC sense, or the "streetfighter," sense, which seems to be primarily what is being advanced as the motivation behind "evolving," kenpo.

What I'd ask is this: how's your kenpo going? Are you familiar with all the sets, the forms, the extensions on the techniques? Have you extensively worked their applications? For how long? Under what teachers? And I don't mean a seminar or two or a camp, but over years? I mean, if it's reasonable to keep advancing this demand that I and others go study jiu-jitsu, or judo, or shootfighting, or whatever, on the grounds that kenpo doesn't offer any of this stuff--isn't it reasonable to ask the other side of the question?

And where does this search through 'em all end?

Now let me be clear. I've no idea what you know or don't know. I've no idea how much you've worked through. I've no idea whether it's a good idea or a bad idea for you to study whatever. I'm simply arguing that for me, it's pointless to go from style to style when I don't even really know this one, after a mere eleven or twelve years. And, to be sure, I'm arguing that in the end, if you look, you will find what you went elsewhere for right back home in kenpo. 

I presume that you're simply referring to James' pragmatism. Well, my version of pragmatism is that it's better to take the time to really learn one strong system than it is to go from system to system to system. I suppose that for others, this may be a pragmatic choice--but this is not reasonably grounded on the inadequacies of kenpo. It's based on what you want, how much time and energy you have available, your ambitions as a martial artist, etc. And--for about the hundredth time!--that's fine. Great, in fact.

I do not see, however, this has to be based on the supposed inadequacies of kenpo. Why not just say, "I want to do this other stuff?"

Or if not that, then why the need to expose all these so-called blind spots, and the absolute refusal to believe those of us who keep saying, "Yeah, worked that," without--at least in my case--without claiming to be some sort of invincible ground-fighter all ready for the UFC?

Come on, guys. Those of us on these forums have about as much chance of competing on a professional level as the man in the moon. That isn't a reflection necessarily on what we study, or even how we study--it's just a recognition of reality.

In brief, this: some of the stuff that's being blamed on kenpo is the product of a) our (I repeat, OUR, not your) lack of imagination and hard work, b) the limits of what we can do as martial artists (which are never where we think they are), c) a demand that kenpo be aimed at goals (like pro fighting) that were never the point, d) lousy teaching, e) (a repeat of "a") our unwillingness to put in the sweat time.

Let me write it again. I think it's great that some folks go study all this stuff. Good for you. I just don't find the same problems in my training, and I don't care to go gadding from school to school, which is what I'd (repeat, I'd) be doing. I simply want to understand what I'm working on now.

Oh yeah...not in response to the last poster at all, but one more time: this isn't a simple matter of "tradition," vs. "evolution."

Thanks.


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Actually, TOD, the particular approach to Locking Horns that we were discussing teaches something other than strikes. Beyond joking, I was responding to the claim that there isn't any grappling, and ground work, or even any responses to the attacks of grapplers of various sorts.
> 
> Further, what I wrote didn't have anything to do with learning or not learning judo. It had to do with the repeated claim that none of the stuff I've worked over years is in kenpo. It had to do with the repeated claim that Mr. Parker left kenpo somehow deeply flawed, incomplete, full of vulnerabilities, and that the way to handle this was to go learn all the other arts in which kenpo was deficient. I reject these claims, on grounds I've previously stated.
> 
> And none of those have to do with the assumption that I'm anything vaguely resembling god's gift to martial arts, or that my kenpo is perfect, or anything resembling such claims. In fact, I have repeatedly stated that I'm not even remotely interested in becoming a "fighter," in the UFC sense, or the "streetfighter," sense, which seems to be primarily what is being advanced as the motivation behind "evolving," kenpo.
> 
> What I'd ask is this: how's your kenpo going? Are you familiar with all the sets, the forms, the extensions on the techniques? Have you extensively worked their applications? For how long? Under what teachers? And I don't mean a seminar or two or a camp, but over years? I mean, if it's reasonable to keep advancing this demand that I and others go study jiu-jitsu, or judo, or shootfighting, or whatever, on the grounds that kenpo doesn't offer any of this stuff--isn't it reasonable to ask the other side of the question?
> 
> And where does this search through 'em all end?
> 
> Now let me be clear. I've no idea what you know or don't know. I've no idea how much you've worked through. I've no idea whether it's a good idea or a bad idea for you to study whatever. I'm simply arguing that for me, it's pointless to go from style to style when I don't even really know this one, after a mere eleven or twelve years. And, to be sure, I'm arguing that in the end, if you look, you will find what you went elsewhere for right back home in kenpo.
> 
> I presume that you're simply referring to James' pragmatism. Well, my version of pragmatism is that it's better to take the time to really learn one strong system than it is to go from system to system to system. I suppose that for others, this may be a pragmatic choice--but this is not reasonably grounded on the inadequacies of kenpo. It's based on what you want, how much time and energy you have available, your ambitions as a martial artist, etc. And--for about the hundredth time!--that's fine. Great, in fact.
> 
> I do not see, however, this has to be based on the supposed inadequacies of kenpo. Why not just say, "I want to do this other stuff?"
> 
> Or if not that, then why the need to expose all these so-called blind spots, and the absolute refusal to believe those of us who keep saying, "Yeah, worked that," without--at least in my case--without claiming to be some sort of invincible ground-fighter all ready for the UFC?
> 
> Come on, guys. Those of us on these forums have about as much chance of competing on a professional level as the man in the moon. That isn't a reflection necessarily on what we study, or even how we study--it's just a recognition of reality.
> 
> In brief, this: some of the stuff that's being blamed on kenpo is the product of a) our (I repeat, OUR, not your) lack of imagination and hard work, b) the limits of what we can do as martial artists (which are never where we think they are), c) a demand that kenpo be aimed at goals (like pro fighting) that were never the point, d) lousy teaching, e) (a repeat of "a") our unwillingness to put in the sweat time.
> 
> Let me write it again. I think it's great that some folks go study all this stuff. Good for you. I just don't find the same problems in my training, and I don't care to go gadding from school to school, which is what I'd (repeat, I'd) be doing. I simply want to understand what I'm working on now.
> 
> Oh yeah...not in response to the last poster at all, but one more time: this isn't a simple matter of "tradition," vs. "evolution."
> 
> Thanks. *


First of all I don't suggest you should go else where. I would rather you trained these ideas in the school in which you train. grappling to me suggests that you wher not sucsessfull in staying on your feet... so now what a ya gonna do? no one is suggesting that you staert bowing to the Brazillion flag. But familiarizing yourself with what you might be up against on some dark night isn't the end of the world.
Sure you may know more set and technique endings than I do but there are people out there that can take you an d me on at the same time and they don't know a single Parker tech. I get the feeling you are a collecter of information. I noticed that Clyde believes that because your system requires more techs per belt level it places yall above those of us that try to make the first six or so technique ideas work in any situation. So i'll give you that you are responsible for more information; however, do you feel its all usefull? Outside of a good strong punch off the back hand, getting off the line of attack, proper stances with good transitions, and some good conditioning, should we really be purging our memory banks in times of crisis.
now don't get me wrong I know mor e than six techs but we pick two or three and work it for a solid month. This makes it difficult to find room foer an extra hundred technique ideas. 
Robert you are actualy one of my favorite people on this forum so I really felt bad about offending you that one time and  I'm sorry. I like to debate and I have definantly found a topic you I don't see eye to eye on but  as we argue I see its only the tip of the iceburg. I'll shut up now.
have a great MMA day.


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## rmcrobertson

Well, that was a reading of mingled joy and mild annoyance. Thanks for the compliment.

However, I must again disagree with the binary opposition you've set up between, "learning a few techniques that work," and  us guys who, "learn a whole bunch that don't."

Yes, I do feel--and more than that, I know--that they are all useful. Beyond trying to point out that it's logically inconsistent to avoid learning parts of kenpo on the grounds that they aren't useful, and then turning around to argue that there are things missing from kenpo, there's these two points: a) the vocabulary helps (nobody ever said that the techs would get run precisely as written), b) the range and diversity of the system is essential to teaching martial arts.

In this context, here's what matters about kenpo: its teachibility, its transmissibility. Without all that "extra," what you end up with is a system that's accessible only to a few. Sure, there will always be a few who will excel...one of the advantages in my training at Mr. Tatum's is that I've always been around martial artists (I'll tell you right now, Juan Serrano is probably the least-known great martial artist in kenpo) who can do things I'll never touch. Which only intensifies my admiration for Mr. Parker and others having devised a martial arts system--and theory--that us ordinary mortals can do something with.

A lot of what's being argued here, in terms of "modernizing," or "evolving," kenpo," would remove everything thaat makes this true. I think.

Still and all, thanks. I appreciate your ideas.


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## Fastmover

"I should be clear about something. I suspect that behind some of these calls for, "reform," are folks who want to be "leading," the "development." I suspect it's a question of power--and that's fine, but let's call it what it is."

Robert,

1. Im not sure if you were directing any of this toward me, but let me assure you that I have no desire to "lead" anything. When I speak of evolving, I can only speak in regards to myself and those that I train with. My intent is a personal quest to grow.

2. Ed Parker did leave Kenpo incomplete. He was constantly changing, growing, learning and being enlighted. It only stands to reason that as he did so that he incorporate this new found knowledge within his system of Kenpo. I learned many different variations to many of the techniques through the years. Mr. Parker himself had a way of changing things. All that I am saying that as I grow and mature as a martial artist, I too must incorporate my new found knowledge into everything I do as well. 

If personally you are fully content and happy with your course of training then I am more then happy for you. You certainly train with some of the best so a knuckle headed rebel like myself should be no threat to your ideas that keep intact the purity of Kenpo. 

Take Care

John


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## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *"I should be clear about something. I suspect that behind some of these calls for, "reform," are folks who want to be "leading," the "development." I suspect it's a question of power--and that's fine, but let's call it what it is."
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Ed Parker did leave Kenpo incomplete. He was constantly changing, growing, learning and being enlighted. It only stands to reason that as he did so that he incorporate this new found knowledge within his system of Kenpo. I learned many different variations to many of the techniques through the years. Mr. Parker himself had a way of changing things. All that I am saying that as I grow and mature as a martial artist, I too must incorporate my new found knowledge into everything I do as well.
> 
> 
> John *



A more thorough understanding of the system may convince you otherwise, at least it did with me.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## MJS

Keep in mind that we are all different, and we all perform things in our own unique way.  Therefore, why compare ourselves with someone else, when chances are, we might never be like that other person.   Parker taught many of his BB differently.  Like I said before, you could take Palanzo, Planas, and Tatum, and I would bet that they all have their OWN way of doing a tech.  

The reasoning behind the numerous amount of techs., and extensions.  If you are attempting a tech. and for some reason, during the tech. the attack changes, you will be able to flow from one to the other.  However, I'm a firm believer in quality over quantity.  If one person can learn 25 tech and make them all work without a problem...great!  Some people  can and some can't.  I'd rather know 5 tech excellent, and know that if I needed to use them, I could, than 25 tech, and only know them fairly well.

In regards to most people on here never competing on a professional level.  Well, I disagree with that.  I also belong to another forum and there are a number of people on there that do train for NHB.  They are able to provide a wealth of knowledge.  Now, before I ruffle any feathers, I do realize that NHB or grappling is not everyones fav. thing to do, but don't knock people who enjoy it!  

As far as cross training...well, it speaks for itself.  I'm not saying that after spending 10 years doing Kenpo, that anybody has to devote another 10 yrs learning BJJ, but like I have said many times before, if I  can take a kick or punch or anything from any other system and make it work for me, I look at it as I'm that much better than before.  I have one more trick in my bag to use, in the event  that I might need it.  Does it mean that if I attend a 5 hour JKD seminar that I'm an expert on the subject? NO.  But if I can take 2 things or 5 things, work them every time I train, then good for me!

Mike


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## rmcrobertson

Hm. OK, two basic points. First of all, who's defending, "the purity of kenpo?" As far as I can tell, this was never a pure system on any level; its origins aren't "pure," its inspiration isn't, "pure," etc., etc. 

What might be "pure," is the consistency of approach to self-defense. I suppose that what I'm arguing for isn't this technique or that technique, but the coherence of the system as a whole. tear out bits and pieces on the grounds they're "outdated," or, "unnecessary," lose the coherence of the system as  a whole.

I also find its a bit odd that in paragraph 2, Mike, you're arguing that you'd rather have a few techniques that work than a bunch that don't, while in paragraph four you're arguing for going to other martial arts in order to acquire technical knowledge that isn't in kenpo...looks contradictory. Either a) you're piling on more techniques of one sort or another, or b) you're adding bits and pieces that have no underlying links, no connecting theoretical basis...unless, of course, you take kenpo as what makes these other arts coherent, which is kinda what I was saying in the first place.

Part of this disagreement, too, is coming out of basic goals. It now looks like the, "modernizing," folks are indeed pushing the UFC-style events...which is fine (though I do stand behind my point that very, very few have the slightest chance of doing well in "NHB," rings, for reasons that have nothing to do with whether kenpo does or doesn't work...for example, basic kenpo theory says, why the hell are you getting into a cage with these monsters?), but not what kenpo was designed for. And us wacky "traditionalists," (still an an inaccurate way to  describe matters, and a loaded one) are primarily pushing self-defense, a very different proposition.

But I should note, clearly, that unlike Clyde and many of the folks I train with, I do think there's something wrong with these so-called NHB events. And I'm traditional in this regard: I don't like the glorification of violence (sorry, apologies all around) that I see there, and I suspect that there are all sorts of extraordinary martial artists who could, if need arose, destroy these guys--even if I don't think I'm one of them, and I agree in advance that this may just be a dream on my part.

I'd be interested, still, to see responses to the questions I asked about teachability. Again, it strikes me that a lot of the disagreements have to do with basic goals...

Anyway, thanks.


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Hm. OK, two basic points. First of all, who's defending, "the purity of kenpo?" As far as I can tell, this was never a pure system on any level; its origins aren't "pure," its inspiration isn't, "pure," etc., etc.
> 
> What might be "pure," is the consistency of approach to self-defense. I suppose that what I'm arguing for isn't this technique or that technique, but the coherence of the system as a whole. tear out bits and pieces on the grounds they're "outdated," or, "unnecessary," lose the coherence of the system as  a whole.
> 
> I also find its a bit odd that in paragraph 2, Mike, you're arguing that you'd rather have a few techniques that work than a bunch that don't, while in paragraph four you're arguing for going to other martial arts in order to acquire technical knowledge that isn't in kenpo...looks contradictory. Either a) you're piling on more techniques of one sort or another, or b) you're adding bits and pieces that have no underlying links, no connecting theoretical basis...unless, of course, you take kenpo as what makes these other arts coherent, which is kinda what I was saying in the first place.
> 
> Part of this disagreement, too, is coming out of basic goals. It now looks like the, "modernizing," folks are indeed pushing the UFC-style events...which is fine (though I do stand behind my point that very, very few have the slightest chance of doing well in "NHB," rings, for reasons that have nothing to do with whether kenpo does or doesn't work...for example, basic kenpo theory says, why the hell are you getting into a cage with these monsters?), but not what kenpo was designed for. And us wacky "traditionalists," (still an an inaccurate way to  describe matters, and a loaded one) are primarily pushing self-defense, a very different proposition.
> 
> But I should note, clearly, that unlike Clyde and many of the folks I train with, I do think there's something wrong with these so-called NHB events. And I'm traditional in this regard: I don't like the glorification of violence (sorry, apologies all around) that I see there, and I suspect that there are all sorts of extraordinary martial artists who could, if need arose, destroy these guys--even if I don't think I'm one of them, and I agree in advance that this may just be a dream on my part.
> 
> I'd be interested, still, to see responses to the questions I asked about teachability. Again, it strikes me that a lot of the disagreements have to do with basic goals...
> 
> Anyway, thanks. *



I have been training in Kenpo for 17 yrs.  It however is not the only art I study.  I go to the other arts to fill a void that Kenpo has.  If you want to learn other things, you must go to other people to get them.  I train with one guy who has experience in JKD, Judo, BJJ, Silat, and Arnis.  I train with another that did Kenpo, Arnis, Kun Tao, and Aiki-jujitsu.  If I want to understand weapons better, I'm going to go and study a weapon based art.  Kenpo can't teach you about a knife the way the Filipino arts can.  It can't teach you about grappling  the way BJJ can.  I do see what you're saying and yes, after reading it again, it does sound like I'm contradicting myself.  Is it adding tech. of some sort? Yes.  Don't get me wrong, I am happy with Kenpo, but I enjoy training outside of it too.   Maybe I'm at the point, where after 17 yrs., I'd like to experience different things.  There are so many different things out there to expereince, why limit myself to one thing?  

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Wow!  This is getting really fun to watch!  Better jump back in!

Robert:  I don't think that proponents of change or of ground grappling are trying to recruit Kenpoists to become NHB fighters.  If that thought is annoying you, let it go...

The point of all this discussion is that some new attack methods have become prominent since Mr. Parker "finalized" the 250 techniques and Katas that are currently EPAK.  These attacks occur three ways:  

1)  Takedown attempts from striking distance.  Kenpo has many techniques and basics that are effective against these.  But do we really train against the double-leg takedown?  Against other wrestling style takedowns?  Do we know how to sprawl?  Some of us do, some of us don't.  All of us should.

2)  Clinching and takedowns from the clinch.  Again, Kenpo has many effective techniques for these situations.  But do we really train against an over-under clinch or an attempted throw from a seat-belt clinch?  Do we know how to break from all of the popular wrestling clinches?  Some of us do, some of us don't.  Again, all of us should -- especially since we have so many techniques for this.

3)  Ground grappling.  This has been talked to death.  Again, if Kenpoists go down, can we maintain and improve position so that we can execute strikes, gouges, etc.?  Some of us train for this, most of us don't.  All of us should at least be acquainted with the positions and key escapes.

When Mr. Parker learned Kenpo in the 50's, few people knew Karate, few people knew Judo, nobody knew BJJ.  There were boxers, wrestlers, and brawlers.  Kenpo is effective against these types of attackers.  Since Mr. Parker learned Kenpo, Karate, Kung Fu, TKD, Kick-boxing and JKD grew rapidly.  Mr. Parker added to and refined Kenpo in the 60's, 70's, and 80's until his death.  Since his death, BJJ techniques have been combined with wrestling and kickboxing to create a new style of fighting usually known as MMA.  

A large portion of this debate can be boiled down to these questions:  Does Kenpo adequately address the new positions, attacks and fighting styles that have emerged since Mr. Parker's death?  Does it do so effectively?  Does it do so in a superior way?  Should it?


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## rmcrobertson

Ok, sure, fine, I guess so.

I'd still like to see some of the questions I asked about a) the nature of kenpo as an art, b) teachability, c) what links all the stuff gleaned from all these other systems, d) whether the fascination with "NHB," events has skewed martial arts thinking.

And no, I don't agree that the discussion can be, "boiled down," in some of these ways...particularly this artificial division between "traditional, " and, "evolutionary," kenpo.

Thanks.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Robert:  

First, let me congratulate you on your MartialTalk Brown Belt.  You have made many strong points in this and other threads.

a)  Nature of Kenpo as an Art:  This is an excellent question.  I think it may be unanswerable and that is why there is more debate about Kenpo on this and other forums than any other forum.  Is Kenpo "complete"?  Is Kenpo a "Do" or a "Jutsu"?  That is one reason why we are having this discussion.  That is why there are so many Kenpo associations (well one reason anyway). That is why so many are trying to bridge Kenpo with other arts.  That is why you and so many others are looking deeper into Kenpo.

b) Teachability:  Another excellent question.  No easy answers, but if Kenpo can be taught, and these other arts can be taught, then why not Kenpo with other techniques?

c)  Linking it all together:  That hasn't happened yet.  It may not happen without a genious as great as mr. Parker's.

d) NHB skewing Martial Artists thinking:  Yes!  It has skewed our thinking.  It has been a big wakeup call to many that some traditional techniques and training methods are not as unassailable as previously believed.  It has been a wakeup call that kata and point-sparring victories may not make us as hot as we thought we were.


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## Fastmover

"A more thorough understanding of the system may convince you otherwise, at least it did with me."

Clyde,

With all due respect this is a pretty bold statement on your part. I do not post very often on the forums and you know nothing of me and my history. Because you may not agree with with my approach is no reason to question my understanding of the system. 

If you would like a detailed discussion on how Kenpo changed through the years while Mr. Parker was alive Id be happy to do this with you. Mr Parker NEVER declared his system complete. The Tracy's to this day attack EPAK for not being pure because through the years Parker adjusted and modified the system. I would have to assume that if he were still alive he would still be modifying in search of the best method to teach his underlying principles.  

Specifically Mr Parker has dropped and added many techniques through the years and he had many things in the works at the time of his death. Intellectual Departure is not in many of the IKKA yellow belt manuals. Mr. Parker was also working on knife and club material which he did not have a chance to complete. I have seen part of the notes to "Speak with a Knife" and it is mostly just a basic outline, in other words it is incomplete. 

If I am understanding you correctly, you are trying to say is within the concepts, principles, and theories of Kenpo, someone can extract and interpurt a solution to any problem by discovering the benefits of variable expansion within Kenpo, rest assured Im right there with you. Inspiration can be found in many places. In my case I have had many break throughs in discovery by investigating other methods. I have been enlightened greatly by the BJJ folks in how to use many of the principles of Kenpo on the ground, Angle of Cancellation and Angle of Disturbance being two. I have no doubt that you can be inspired within the confines of Kenpo; however, sometimes approaching problems at a different angle with a different perspective is very rewarding.

Take Care

John


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## MJS

You're right OFK, this is interesting!  I'd like to start by rephrasing my last post.  I realize that by studing 2 or 3 different arts, you are in a sense adding more tech.  Why add other arts, when you can just add more Kenpo??  OFK said it best.  There are many things that were not covered in the art.  Every day, new things come up.  Don't you think that if some criminal has 5 yrs to sit in jail and think of nothing excpet new ways to break into someones house, steal a car, etc.  

Unfortuantely, when Parked died, the Kenpo world exploded.  What I mean by this, is that, Parker was able to keep order and decide what and how the material was to be taught.  Now look at it.  Everybody has their own way of teaching, doing things, etc.  Will there ever be one person to take control? Probably not.

Kenpo as an art.  It is an excellent art, but it lacks certain things, which have been made apparent.  As far as NHB goes.  It was the intention of the Gracie family to pit one art against another to see the weaknesses.  Does everybody have to turn into a grappler? NO.  Do we all have to enter NHB events? NO.  OFK made many good points in his post.   In order to be 100% complete, you need to address each and every one of those points.  Walking around thinking you will never get taken down is crazy!  A fight is more than just punching.  There is grappling.  Only difference is that you are standing.  

Tradition??  Kenpo is not a traditional art.  If it was, Parker never would have made the changes that he did from when he learned it.   There will always be a situation in which we are not prepared.  But, we can try to do what we can to better prepare ourselves.  

In regards to the tech.  Let me clarify what I mean.  There are 24 tech. per belt.  Like I said, some people can make all 24 work and some can't.  It all depends on how much effort you put into realisticly training them.  Why have a hard time with 24 and then learn JKD and BJJ and Boxing?  Isnt that making it harder on yourself?  It all depends on the person.  In my opinion, some of the tech. would probably get you killed if you tried them on the street.  Nothing wrong with crosstraining.  This is 2003, not 1940.  Things change and we need to change with the times as well.

Mike


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## rmcrobertson

Look, I may just be repeating myself, but I still don't see answers. I see the repetition of shibboleths.

For example, I still want to know where it all ends. After BJJ, what? Apparently, Modern Arnis and Phillippine knives. Then what? An infinity of things can happen, "on the street," sure--are we supposed to endlessly prepare for all of them? And why the concept of endless threat?

I still want a specific example of a "tech..that will probably get you killed on the street."

I have trouble with the notion that NHB events were some big wake-up call. In the first place, judo and Gene LeBell were around long before...in the second, guess what I learned from the so-called NHB events? Don't get in a cage with some big guy who likes to fight, is in better shape than you can ever be (unless you drop everything else in your life), and is almost certainly more physically-talented than you are. (And just incidentally--everybody knows that professional fighters almost always pay a horrific physical price later in life, right?)

I still want to know how you go about teaching students. Just tell them, well, go here, go here and go here?

I still want to understand the logic of eliminating all sorts of stuff from kenpo, then saying that there's stuff missing from kenpo.

I also still find it interesting that some posters write that they learned more about Angles of Cancellation on the ground, for example, then turn about and say that groundwork isn't anywhere in kenpo. I find it even more interesting that, despite my several mentions of grappling techniques, there's still an insistence that some of us "purists," won't realize that a fight involves grappling.

And just to open up a real can of worms--sometimes techniques aren't getting taught "differently," which is not what "tailoring," meant anyway. Sometimes, they're getting taught wrong.

Sorry, guys. Maybe I'm just thick today.


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## Kenpo Yahoo

Some of the Concepts that should be avoided:

-maneuvering through a twist stance at any point during your self defense (culprit- several of the brown belt techniques). 

-the idea of leaping to one leg while blocking an attack and performing an inward strike to whatever target you so chose ( don't want to alienate anyone now..) (take a guess)

-the idea of doing an overhead cross block against an incoming club.

-Triggered salute (the way that most people do it.)

-almost all of the two man defenses (there is no way that a prescribed technique will work against multiple attackers).  Everyone argues the point that BJJ doesn't work against multiple attackers, well I'm not too sure that kenpo will PREPARE you to fight multiple attackers either.

-most of the gun techniques, for the simple reason that guns have changed over the last several years.  You use to be able grab the cylinder, or stop the firing pin by obstructing the hammer, or even grabbing the slide.  None of that will work on a Glock, unless you can jam your finger through the ejection port in the fraction of a second that it's open.  Besides this, the barrel tends to fly all around the clock face before the final disarm (not good for any of us)

-How many of the knife defenses take into account the idea of backcutting (using a reverse path of motion)?

-With EP's background in Judo I'm surprised that no one ever questioned the purpose or intent of a grab or hold?  Surely the intent of an attacker is not to simply grab you and hold on but to disrupt and control your balance either by maneuvering and striking (very cool drill Capt...) or simply throwing you.  Especially the techniques from behind.  Odds are if they are going to tackle, throw, or lift you off the ground from behind, you're going to be toast before you realize what's happening.  Another good point about take downs did anyone see the M.L. baseball game where the pitcher did a double leg takedown on a charging batter (ok..... slightly charging batter) followed by a punch to the face.  I'm pretty sure he's never had bjj training.

Am I trying to say that these are all my thoughts and ideas? No.  In most cases I was shown why this wouldn't work, but in some cases I was able to figure things out for myself using simple logic and physics.  I don't have all the answers, but before there are answers there are always questions.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts, even if you don't agree.


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## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Some of the Concepts that should be avoided:
> 
> -maneuvering through a twist stance at any point during your self defense (culprit- several of the brown belt techniques).
> 
> -the idea of leaping to one leg while blocking an attack and performing an inward strike to whatever target you so chose ( don't want to alienate anyone now..) (take a guess)
> 
> -the idea of doing an overhead cross block against an incoming club.
> 
> -Triggered salute (the way that most people do it.)
> 
> -almost all of the two man defenses (there is no way that a prescribed technique will work against multiple attackers).  Everyone argues the point that BJJ doesn't work against multiple attackers, well I'm not too sure that kenpo will PREPARE you to fight multiple attackers either.
> 
> -most of the gun techniques, for the simple reason that guns have changed over the last several years.  You use to be able grab the cylinder, or stop the firing pin by obstructing the hammer, or even grabbing the slide.  None of that will work on a Glock, unless you can jam your finger through the ejection port in the fraction of a second that it's open.  Besides this, the barrel tends to fly all around the clock face before the final disarm (not good for any of us)
> 
> -How many of the knife defenses take into account the idea of backcutting (using a reverse path of motion)?
> 
> -With EP's background in Judo I'm surprised that no one ever questioned the purpose or intent of a grab or hold?  Surely the intent of an attacker is not to simply grab you and hold on but to disrupt and control your balance either by maneuvering and striking (very cool drill Capt...) or simply throwing you.  Especially the techniques from behind.  Odds are if they are going to tackle, throw, or lift you off the ground from behind, you're going to be toast before you realize what's happening.  Another good point about take downs did anyone see the M.L. baseball game where the pitcher did a double leg takedown on a charging batter (ok..... slightly charging batter) followed by a punch to the face.  I'm pretty sure he's never had bjj training.
> 
> Am I trying to say that these are all my thoughts and ideas? No.  In most cases I was shown why this wouldn't work, but in some cases I was able to figure things out for myself using simple logic and physics.  I don't have all the answers, but before there are answers there are always questions.
> 
> Looking forward to everyone's thoughts, even if you don't agree. *




Hmm, I'm glad I don't train with your instructor, I'm more inclined to teach people how the technique will work instead of how it won't.   I've addressed all these issues at one time or another in the past 3 months and how to deal with them, in fact, I addressed alot of them last Saturday.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## kkbb

IMHO...

To prepare one's self for every single possible threat is foolish.  You cannot possibly practice and train for "all" threats.  Those who go outside their art "looking to fill holes" in my mind are doing just that. 

Looking to "add" to your art or "round out your training" from outside scources, to solve percieved deficiencies, is like adding a shovel of dirt to the Grand Canyon.  You just keep throwing more in and it is never full.    It will never be full. 

The BJJ guys are probabley sitting around saying to themselves (or outloud) " Man we have these kenpo guys running scared" 

Instead of vast amounts of time learning BJJ, we should be learining and using Kenpo techniques to negate and counter these attatcks, not add them to our artillary.  

Most if not all arts have everything that is needed to fill voids.    Kenpo is no exception.  

EPAK should evolve.... it is meant to evolve.... but not "dissolve"

In my opinion, the changes that are needed (if any) will only come when one strong leader emerges.  

Maybe closer study into what Mr. Parker was going to do with the system may be needed.


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## rmcrobertson

I find the first two notes about what won't work/should never be done really interesting, inasmuch as some of their applications are specifically meant to work against people on the ground, or people trying to dump you on the ground. 

Those twist stances--among other things--are the way they are, in part, in case you're standing over somebody. They cut off lines of access to the groin; a rotating twist can be used to attack a limb, or the neck, or the ribcage, or the collarbone, or...

As for Leaping Crane, the tech teaches beginners a different way to get the head and upper body out of the line of an attack. With the ending to Dance of Death added on, the stance also teaches to get your foot out of the arc that can be described by the arm or leg of somebody on the ground.

And all of these applications (there are others) are central to one of those "useless," forms, Long 5. One of whose major themes is takedowns, and dealing with opponents on the ground.

As for a) that "overhead cross block," well, you didn't make your objection clear--is it that your arms'll get busted? or is it that the club will whip over the block and smite thy tender skull? Uh...if so, sorry but I was taught not to stand directly under any raining-down long, heavy object...and 45 angles/deflections help...b) as for Triggered salute/the two-mans, well, I don't see a statement of a specific objection in either case...c) the gun techs never rely on grabbing the cylinder/hammer so ya donts get shot in yer favroite organ or limb or head...they rely on getting out of line with that hole in the end of the boomstick, and staying out of line with it..any grabbing is only taught as a possibility...d) all the knife techs include the possibility of recoil/backcutting, the way I was taught them...and in point of fact, bringing off a tech like Entwined Lance actually relies on the idea of backcutting, on the attacker's pulling the knife back reflexively...and, I might add, I have again and again and again seen (and felt, to be sure) Mr. Tatum and Clyde making the point that the guy with the knife can, and will, cut you as they pull the knife back..and, I might add, it's a point Mr. Tatum makes again and again on the self-defense tech tapes.

As for the thing about the disruptiveness of some attacks, well, I dunno. I teach it, as I was taught it...in fact, I taught this in group Saturday before last, and nearly got my head snapped off by some thirteen-year-old I egged into doing the push attack correctly for Encounter With Danger...and again, techs such as Grasp/Grip of Death positively rely on your being yanked off balance...it's a big reason close kneels are in the kenpo language...

But now we're talkin'! Thanks.


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## ProfessorKenpo

here's some vertical grappling done by one of Kenpo's best, the master of Forced Yoga, David German.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Yes KKBB it is foolish to prepare yourself for every possible threat.  

By your logic, you should not be a Kenpo practitioner because you would be foolish to memorize 600 techniques and variations (Tracy's) or the 250 techniques and extensions (EPAK).   

By my logic, it is foolish to claim that you are prepared for every possible attack by learning 600 or 250 techniques that do not directly address common wrestling and Judo takedowns and wrestling and BJJ positions.  

As far as getting Kenpo guys to run scared, I don't think anybody here or elsewhere is trying to scare anybody.  I certainly am not.  I don't think the Kenpoists learning BJJ and posting here are trying to scare anyone.  I do think that we are trying to have a lively discussion about an important trend in MA -- the ressurgence of grappling -- and a lively discussion about potential directions for Kenpo in light on the latest MA (or MMA) thinking.

In my non-MA life, I work in High-tech Marketing.  I have many friends who are engineers.  We are always looking for new trends and technologies.  We don't want to get left behind.  We want to continually improve our skills and help our employers be more successful (so we can stay employed).  I am not an early adopter.  I watch new technologies but don't adopt them until they are proven.  No company and no employee wants to get left behind with old skills and technologies.  Why should Kenpo practice be different from business and technology?  Aren't both about knowledge, improvement, growth, competition?  

I remember going to tournaments in the 70's and 80's and seeing top-ranked competitors do new techniques in Kata, Kumite, and Self-Defense-demonstration divisions.  We'd take the techniques back and try-em.  If they worked, we'd keep 'em.  If they didn't, we didn't.  To me, the early UFC and NHB competition are like tournaments 15 and 30 years ago.  We had a chance to see different techniques and how they worked against each other.  A lot of people started to learn BJJ because of the early UFC's.  Eventually, Kickboxers started to learn enough BJJ to defend themselves and enough stand-up grappling so that they couldn't get taken down and could continue to kickbox.   Now, many kickboxers can defend against a takedown and defend themselves on the ground so that they can stay on their feet and do what they do best.  Shouldn't Kenpo people be doing the same?  Shouldn't we learn from these top-ranked competitors?


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## Michael Billings

Just for those who did not know ... LIKE ME!



> *Shibboleths: Mysteries of Computer-Speak*
> 
> _"A shibboleth is defined as "a use of language regarded as distinctive of a particular group." _



In the meantime, I strongly agree with Robert and unusually enough, Clyde ... just kidding, we agree more than we don't.  There is something lacking in understanding the complete art if you are disregarding as "Useless" the Principles, Concepts, or Theories inherent in the techniques you were referencing.  I think they are practical, applicable, and useful, in the original or modified states.  

Talk to any Ba Gua fighter and all you find are twist stances.  Stepping off line, rotational torque, etc. are essential components of Kenpo also.


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## kkbb

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *By my logic, it is foolish to claim that you are prepared for every possible attack by learning 600 or 250 techniques that do not directly address common wrestling and Judo takedowns and wrestling and BJJ positions.  *



See, this is my point....
What you are saying is... if I am reading you correctly is....that in all of those techniques...not one addressess (directly or indirectly) the situtations that you make reference to? I'll bet there is at least a couple.  I think you missed the point of my post.  

So learning more and then adding more to Kenpo will solve this problem?

I think the answer is learn more, ok.  Nobody is suggesting anything less...  but add more....no.  
Use the tools you have, stay the course, fads will come and go, but tried and proven techniques will always prevail.  I would much rather fight my fight than fight theirs.  

Let me say again: Kenpo should evolve.... it is meant to evolve.... but not "dissolve" :asian:


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## Fastmover

"I also still find it interesting that some posters write that they learned more about Angles of Cancellation on the ground, for example, then turn about and say that groundwork isn't anywhere in kenpo. I find it even more interesting that, despite my several mentions of grappling techniques, there's still an insistence that some of us "purists," won't realize that a fight involves grappling."


Robert,

Well lets see I havnt seen were anyone else has mentioned Angles Of Cancellation so I assume you are refering to me. It would help if you identify who you are refering to. NEVER did I say that there is no ground work within Kenpo. Maybe your misunderstanding me so let me try and clear it up. There are NO formal ground techniques within EPAK; however, the concepts, principles, and theories of Kenpo can be applied on the ground.

Maybe you would like to share which techniques you are doing on the ground?

Also you and Clyde seem to imply that since everyone is doing something different, then they must be doing the material wrong. I hope that this is not what your elluding to because that would be pretty arrogant on your part. Clyde if Im not mistaken your old instructor is Vic Laroux and since he and Mr. Sullivan developed the IKCA, they do things pretty different compared to traditional EPAK. Are they doing Kenpo wrong as well?

Robert, lets explore something that you yourself brought up. You mentioned knife defenses and their abilty to defend against the back cut, yet no were within Mr. Parkers manuals does it speak about the back cut. In fact Mr Parkers books speak very little about knife fighting.  Point is it may not be within the books of Kenpo but for some reason it has found its way within your Kenpo? The FMA guys have been doing back cuts for many many years. You dont think that you could learn ANYTHING from these FMA about back cuts?

Since I am speaking about the many terms found in the Parker Encyclopedia, were did these terms come from? Did Parker get all these from his instructor or did he and his students develope these through the years? 

This whole thing really cracks me up to be honest, I heard for years from other Kenpoist that since Mr. Parker changed the system, he was doing it wrong and the terms were just a bunch of fancy vocabulary. This was done in Parkers day so it doesnt surprise me now that its being done today. 

I believe the whole point to this whole string was were Kenpo will go into the future. Its obvious that we have different ideas about this so thank goodness we all have an instructor and/or association that is taloired to our own needs. Honestly Mr. Parker pointed many of his students in different directions and they will pass on these ideas to the generations to come. AND they will continue to agrue over who is doing Kenpo correctly. 

John


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## rmcrobertson

"...it is foolish to claim that you are prepared for every possible attack by learning 600 or 250 techniques that do not directly address common wrestling and Judo takedowns and wrestling and BJJ positions." 

Could you please give examples of these omissions? Specific ones? Because once again, here's my problem: some of us keep mentioning, "common...takedowns," at least, and this info keeps getting ignored.

I might also note that while I agree with your general point, I suppose, there are lots of attacks for which specific antidotes aren't spelled out in the curriculum. This doesn't mean they ain't there. If we're going to draw analogies, how 'bout this one: no language includes sentences addressing every situation. It would be impossible; moreover, it would be impossible to keep adding utterances until everything was covered. 

What you're missing is that kenpo wasn't designed to be a dictionary. it was designed to be what Noam Chomsky called a, "generative grammar," which is something very different.

Second, progress is not our most important product here, I don't think. But I was happy to see confirmation of my general theory that some of these demands for "evolution," and "modernization," are driven by ideology, not by practicality as such. And since Darwin was wrong about stuff--like the notion of evolution as a smooth, upward progress--it's best not to simply adopt his terminology.

By the way, I'm just askin'.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Robert:  again, you make excellent points.

Kenpo has several great techniques to defend against takedown attempts BEFORE the attacker has grabbed your legs or broken your balance.  The problem is what to do AFTER you've missed your opportunity as might happen when you are defending against multiple attackers or if your single attacker quickly switches from a strong striking attack at face level to a dive at your knees...These attacks have simple names like double-leg takedown, single-led head-inside takedown, single-leg head-outside takedown, and not so simple names like inner-reap throw, etc.  Kenpo has checks and traps to keep your attacker from striking you AFTER you've blocked their first attack.  Why not specific defenses against takedowns and ground positions as well?  If Kenpo changes in the 21st century, isn't this a valid direction?

P.S. to Robert:  Thank g_d Kenpo terminology comes from Ed Parker and not Noam Chomsky!

KKBB:  Agreed, I'd much rather fight my fight than fight theirs.  That's why I want to learn to defend myself against their techniques.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *"Also you and Clyde seem to imply that since everyone is doing something different, then they must be doing the material wrong. I hope that this is not what your elluding to because that would be pretty arrogant on your part. Clyde if Im not mistaken your old instructor is Vic Laroux and since he and Mr. Sullivan developed the IKCA, they do things pretty different compared to traditional EPAK. Are they doing Kenpo wrong as well?
> 
> This whole thing really cracks me up to be honest, I heard for years from other Kenpoist that since Mr. Parker changed the system, he was doing it wrong and the terms were just a bunch of fancy vocabulary. This was done in Parkers day so it doesnt surprise me now that its being done today.
> 
> I believe the whole point to this whole string was were Kenpo will go into the future. Its obvious that we have different ideas about this so thank goodness we all have an instructor and/or association that is taloired to our own needs. Honestly Mr. Parker pointed many of his students in different directions and they will pass on these ideas to the generations to come. AND they will continue to agrue over who is doing Kenpo correctly.
> 
> John *



Yes, my old instructor and my first introduction to Kenpo came from Vic LeRoux.     I'm happy I made the change to Larry because he truly opened my eyes to what Kenpo is and what it can be.   I can't say the same for the IKCA.    I believe their methods are antiquated and unuseful for me.     I posted a pic of David German, one of my favorite Kenpo guys, but I'm partial to him as he's already turned me into a pretzel more than once, and will do so again hopefully in the near future.   If you've never had the oppurtunity to work with the man I would highly recommend it.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Fastmover

Hey Clyde,

You always speak about great conviction about The Tatum Crew and Im glad you have a place that fulfills your needs. Let me ask you, do you feel that the sequences of Kenpo could be changed and still comply with the principles of Kenpo? Mr. Sullivan trained with Mr. Parker for many years so how is it that he could be doing something so antiquated? Maybe he is doing something different in that he has found a way to better introduce the priciples of Kenpo?? I dont train nor have I ever worked with anyone from that group, I was just using them as an example because they do things differently. Please hold the attacks, Im not trying to single anyone out.

Its odd that their are so many Parker Black Belts who trained with the same instructor, have different ideas about the best way to teach the principles of Kenpo. Many have forged their own path such as Chuck Sullivan, Ron Chapel, Paul Mills and Mike Pick to name a few. People are going to follow their own convictions and do what they feel best.  I have a hard time believing that all these individuals are wrong just because they are different. 

I first started in the Tracy's system back in the early 80's, personally I dont feel that system is for me but I know it is for some. I know some Tracy's Kenpoist that are damn good fighters!!!

By the way do you have a web sight address for David German?

Be Good,

John


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## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Hey Clyde,
> 
> You always speak about great conviction about The Tatum Crew and Im glad you have a place that fulfills your needs. Let me ask you, do you feel that the sequences of Kenpo could be changed and still comply with the principles of Kenpo? Mr. Sullivan trained with Mr. Parker for many years so how is it that he could be doing something so antiquated? Maybe he is doing something different in that he has found a way to better introduce the priciples of Kenpo?? I dont train nor have I ever worked with anyone from that group, I was just using them as an example because they do things differently. Please hold the attacks, Im not trying to single anyone out.
> 
> Its odd that their are so many Parker Black Belts who trained with the same instructor, have different ideas about the best way to teach the principles of Kenpo. Many have forged their own path such as Chuck Sullivan, Ron Chapel, Paul Mills and Mike Pick to name a few. People are going to follow their own convictions and do what they feel best.  I have a hard time believing that all these individuals are wrong just because they are different.
> 
> I first started in the Tracy's system back in the early 80's, personally I dont feel that system is for me but I know it is for some. I know some Tracy's Kenpoist that are damn good fighters!!!
> 
> By the way do you have a web sight address for David German?
> 
> Be Good,
> 
> John *



I can't find David's website right now but I'll keep looking.   

When I was with Vic I never learned Long 2, Long 4,  Long 5, Long 6, and only about 1/3 of the techniques that I do now.   I used to feel so out of place at the West LA studio when he took me down there cuz I was the only Brown Belt that didn't know it.      In fact, I learned the forms off video shortly before going to Larry's.   Vic and Chuck do their own thing, and it makes them happy, good for them.    BTW, read my post on the Kenponet entitled Mr. Parker taught me that.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Look, I may just be repeating myself, but I still don't see answers. I see the repetition of shibboleths.
> 
> For example, I still want to know where it all ends. After BJJ, what? Apparently, Modern Arnis and Phillippine knives. Then what? An infinity of things can happen, "on the street," sure--are we supposed to endlessly prepare for all of them? And why the concept of endless threat?
> 
> I still want a specific example of a "tech..that will probably get you killed on the street."
> 
> I have trouble with the notion that NHB events were some big wake-up call. In the first place, judo and Gene LeBell were around long before...in the second, guess what I learned from the so-called NHB events? Don't get in a cage with some big guy who likes to fight, is in better shape than you can ever be (unless you drop everything else in your life), and is almost certainly more physically-talented than you are. (And just incidentally--everybody knows that professional fighters almost always pay a horrific physical price later in life, right?)
> 
> I still want to know how you go about teaching students. Just tell them, well, go here, go here and go here?
> 
> I still want to understand the logic of eliminating all sorts of stuff from kenpo, then saying that there's stuff missing from kenpo.
> 
> I also still find it interesting that some posters write that they learned more about Angles of Cancellation on the ground, for example, then turn about and say that groundwork isn't anywhere in kenpo. I find it even more interesting that, despite my several mentions of grappling techniques, there's still an insistence that some of us "purists," won't realize that a fight involves grappling.
> 
> And just to open up a real can of worms--sometimes techniques aren't getting taught "differently," which is not what "tailoring," meant anyway. Sometimes, they're getting taught wrong.
> 
> Sorry, guys. Maybe I'm just thick today. *



Ok, first, NHB is closer to what a real fight is going to be like, not point sparring where you can't kick to the legs, hit to the back, etc.  If people don't train for realism, then when you get into a fight on the street you will get you a** kicked!!  There is no ref on the street to prevent someone from kicking you in the leg.  There is always someone bigger and better than you, but I guess you dont think so.

2 tech come to mind that I think will not work on the street--1- scrapping hoof.  If someone is attempting to put their arms around you, why raise you arms to aid them??  Instead, you should immediately bring your arms to your side to prevent them from finishing the grab.  Have you ever been in a real full nelson??  A friend of mine that is a wrestler put me in one and I thought my neck was going to break.  The 2nd one is Striking Serpents Head.  Do you really think that in a real fight, the guy is going to stand there and hug you?  Hell no, he is going to be getting ready to slam you to the ground...hense the importance of grappling.  

As far as the ground game goes.  If you think that you will never get taken down or will be able to really defend yourself against a wrestler or grappler, then fine.  I would love to be able to prove this to you in a sparring match.  I assure you, you WILL end up on the ground!!  Maybe you should try sparring with a grappler.  Maybe then your eyes will be opened!

Mike


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by kkbb _
> *IMHO...
> 
> To prepare one's self for every single possible threat is foolish.  You cannot possibly practice and train for "all" threats.  Those who go outside their art "looking to fill holes" in my mind are doing just that.
> 
> Looking to "add" to your art or "round out your training" from outside scources, to solve percieved deficiencies, is like adding a shovel of dirt to the Grand Canyon.  You just keep throwing more in and it is never full.    It will never be full.
> 
> The BJJ guys are probabley sitting around saying to themselves (or outloud) " Man we have these kenpo guys running scared"
> 
> Instead of vast amounts of time learning BJJ, we should be learining and using Kenpo techniques to negate and counter these attatcks, not add them to our artillary.
> 
> Most if not all arts have everything that is needed to fill voids.    Kenpo is no exception.
> 
> EPAK should evolve.... it is meant to evolve.... but not "dissolve"
> 
> In my opinion, the changes that are needed (if any) will only come when one strong leader emerges.
> 
> Maybe closer study into what Mr. Parker was going to do with the system may be needed. *



Training for all threats?? Maybe you should re-read some of the posts.  I said, you will never be able to prepare for every threat, but by not training in realistic knife defenses, you will be in for a surprise if you get attacked.  Compare Kenpo knife training to that of Filipino knife.. a BIG difference!  I have no idea why some people are so against cross training!  Maybe instead of being so closed minded, you should give it a try.  If a system does not address something, do you not think that it is something that you should look into as to why it is like that?  I am NOT saying devote 20 yrs into another art, but by taking some of the ideas and concepts and adding them to the Kenpo to make it better is a good start.  Bruce Lee did this with JKD.  Are you going to sit there and tell me that his art is no good?  He took from many arts, and JKD is probably one of the most complete arts that I have seen.

You talk about a leader.  OK.  When Parker was alive, everybody was under his umbrella.  When he died, people broke off and formed many different orgs.  There will never be 1 person to take control, because now that they have been one their own, they want to continue to do things their way.  Maybe you should talk to your Inst. and ask him/her their opinion.

MIke


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## MJS

In regards to teaching students.  I explain the tech. what the attack is, and then go into the tech.  I make sure that they do it slowly at first, and then build up speed.  I start attacking them slowly and then gradually build up to a faster, harder strike.  I have them perform the tech. many times to hopefully ensure that they have a good grasp of it.  I then go it the "What Ifs" of the tech. and give them various examples of the many different things that can happen.  I tell them to use the tech as a learning tool and to expand on it themselves, having them try to come up with different things that they might come across while doing the tech.  

One thing to remember also, in regards to things that won't work.  Like it was said in a previous post, many of the mult. attacker tech. dont seem realistic.  This is not a Van Dam movie where he fights 10 guys and they all come at him at one time.  You will have 2 or 3 people coming at you at once and from different angles.  They will not be static like the attacks in some of the Kenpo techs.

Not sure if this was what you were looking for in regards to teaching students.  Teaching is something that not everybody can do. Some people are good fighters and bad teachers, etc.  It is something that wil take time, because you have to have an understanding of the tech. because the students will always be trying to challenge you with their questions.

Mike


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## rmcrobertson

Going in reverse order: my eyes are already open. They just see different things than you do. For example, I see my own vulnerability....and could offer a thousand examples of attackers and attacks you'd be just as unprepared for as you think I'd be unprepared against a grappler.

So far, every time I've been in--or witnessed--a physical confrontation over the last forty years, I have never seen any time that the thing went to the ground. I've never seen a time when it LOOKED like it was going to the ground--every single person who threatened, has clearly been thinking up high. Oh wait--one exception--I saw about seven guys chase somebody into a parking lot, knock him down, and start kicking. I broke that one up by running at them from about fifty yards away, yelling, "Cops! Call the cops," and they thought that I was a cop and ran off. 

You have different experiences, I guess. OK, fine. And for reasons I've previously mentioned, this has nothing to do with my point.

Second, Striking Serpent's Head. Hm. I was taught this as a defense against a bearhug, sure, but with the attacker attampting to blow right through you and knock you back and down. About six months ago, I was going over the extension with one of my students--he was eleven at the time--and Clyde came over to remind us both about the, "bracing angle," concept, knocking TJ back and down. If you look at the extension, it is particularly predicated upon a takedown--or more accurately, a strikedown. And one hint...before the whipping backkuckle to the opposite side of the punim (the "striking serpent's head," of the name), insert a right inward forearm upside the head as you step back. It has a remarkable effect upon their willingness to keep pushing forward.

A "real full nelson?" Yes, I have. While I was learning Scraping Hooves, Repeated Devastation, and Twirling Sacrifice, the three stages of such an attack. Why do the arms go up in SH? because they've started to set the hold, bringing the arms up. And again--if you look at the tech's extension, it specifically attacks the legs as the attacker continues to grab.

As for NHB being "closer to a real fight on the street," well first--a cheap shot--will there be a cage wherever I go? Last two times I came very close to getting into it, the fiorst time I realized I was in a car and I drove away. The second time I backed up, two steps, and the guy blustered a bit and then left.

Let me write this AGAIN. I do not consider myself a great fighter. I do not consider myself invulnerable to all attacks. I do not consider myself the grappling equal of a Gracie black belt, 'course not. It's not what I'm arguing. 

Thanks,
Robert

PS, for MJS--sure, but do you teach students WHY they're doing what they're doing? do you teach them about the checking system? about height, width, depth?

Thanks too, R.


----------



## MJS

Ok, now I'll go in order from top to bottom.  I never once said that I was an unbeatable fighter either.  Yes, there are many attacks out there that I have not encountered.  Nobody is unbeatable.  My point I was trying to make, was, no, you will never be 100% prepared, but you can at least try to be. 

Going to the ground.  Thats funny.  I was just watching the News this morning, and heard about some police officers in one of the larger cities in CT, getting into a foot chase.  He was attempting to arrest a drug dealer.  Well, when he caught the guy, he of course was not going to just give up.  Instead, he struggled and eventually they went to the ground.  HHmm, and fights or struggles never go to the groung huh?  Imagine trying to arrest somebody, have it go to the ground and have this guy get the upper hand, get your gun from you, and shoot you!

The bearhug.  If the guy wants to take you down, he's going to try to trip you to assist in the takedown.  When a grappler shoots in, he puts his foot behind yours to prevent any stepping back to regain balance.  Not everybody that attempts a bearhug is a world class grappler, but its just something to keep in mind.

Full Nelson.  True, the arms are going up, but why continue to bring them up just to get that first hit to the face?  Why not, as soon as you feel the arms around you, stopping them long before they get that far?

NHB and fighting in a cage.  Not a cheap shot....just the truth.  Too much time is spent on point sparring and making sure that you dont hurt your partner, rather than really learning how to fight.  Of course, there is not going to be a cage.  But, the guy that has a bad case of road rage that day and wants to take your head off, is not going to be dancing around throwing punches.  He is going to be like a bull, coming at you with a flurry of things.

Teaching students.  Of course.  Those things you mentioned are very important.  But I want to make sure, especially if I'm teaching a white belt, that they have an understanding of the basic tech. first, and then, I go on to explain the finer points.  A new student is going to be nervous enough jsut trying to remember what they are supposed to do, without having to worry about 10 others things.  Like I said in my post.  After they have an understanding of it, I then go back and explain everything else.

Mike


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## Michael Billings

Leave out example of law enforcement as an example of "real fights".  Police cannot box a guy or kick him and break their knees, nor can they kick him in the thighs, generally speaking.  

For them, BJJ is an excellent compliment to their Kenpo, as they are required to "restrain" a subject, not beat the snot out of them.  But in no way is this anything like a standup bar fight or when I worked as a bouncer.  

The only fatalities I have seen in law enforcement were gun related shootings ... EXCEPT for excessive use of force when handcuffing.  Several deaths have been attributed to a guy suffocating while on his stomach, for various reasons.

The only time I went to the ground, in the real world, was when I was trying to restrain someone, in a "real world" fight, I have stayed on my feet.  

Sure, prepare to fight on the ground if you want.  BUT QUIT TRYING TO SELL IT AS A "REAL" FIGHT.  It may or may not be, and certainly will not be for me unless the goal is to restrain the opponent.

Yours in Kenpo


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Some of the Concepts that should be avoided:
> 
> -maneuvering through a twist stance at any point during your self defense (culprit- several of the brown belt techniques).
> 
> -the idea of leaping to one leg while blocking an attack and performing an inward strike to whatever target you so chose ( don't want to alienate anyone now..) (take a guess)
> 
> -the idea of doing an overhead cross block against an incoming club.
> 
> -Triggered salute (the way that most people do it.)
> 
> -almost all of the two man defenses (there is no way that a prescribed technique will work against multiple attackers).  Everyone argues the point that BJJ doesn't work against multiple attackers, well I'm not too sure that kenpo will PREPARE you to fight multiple attackers either.
> 
> -most of the gun techniques, for the simple reason that guns have changed over the last several years.  You use to be able grab the cylinder, or stop the firing pin by obstructing the hammer, or even grabbing the slide.  None of that will work on a Glock, unless you can jam your finger through the ejection port in the fraction of a second that it's open.  Besides this, the barrel tends to fly all around the clock face before the final disarm (not good for any of us)
> 
> -How many of the knife defenses take into account the idea of backcutting (using a reverse path of motion)?
> 
> -With EP's background in Judo I'm surprised that no one ever questioned the purpose or intent of a grab or hold?  Surely the intent of an attacker is not to simply grab you and hold on but to disrupt and control your balance either by maneuvering and striking (very cool drill Capt...) or simply throwing you.  Especially the techniques from behind.  Odds are if they are going to tackle, throw, or lift you off the ground from behind, you're going to be toast before you realize what's happening.  Another good point about take downs did anyone see the M.L. baseball game where the pitcher did a double leg takedown on a charging batter (ok..... slightly charging batter) followed by a punch to the face.  I'm pretty sure he's never had bjj training.
> 
> Am I trying to say that these are all my thoughts and ideas? No.  In most cases I was shown why this wouldn't work, but in some cases I was able to figure things out for myself using simple logic and physics.  I don't have all the answers, but before there are answers there are always questions.
> 
> Looking forward to everyone's thoughts, even if you don't agree. *



I couldn't stay away from this one....  :shrug: 

It looks to me like you need to get out and train a bit more and work these techniques and analyze them.  Just going through the motions will never reveal the answers.  I agree with Clyde...spend more time analyzing how they work, not how they don't.  

I had an instructor that asked Mr. Parker how to avoid a judo hip toss once.  This guy was Mr. Parker's size, or even a little bigger.  He grabbed Mr. Parker by his GI, as a typical judo hip throw would happen, and turned to throw Mr. Parker.  All Mr. Parker did was simply check this guy at the hip with his hand, and the guy couldn't throw him like he was supposed to be able to.  Obviously Mr. Parker knew his judo, and his kenpo.
:asian:


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## rmcrobertson

I agree. And just to stick up for those useless forms, the hip check against such a throw is in the applications (with a twist stance, yet!) to Long Form 2--arguably the most old-fashioned and traditional form in kenpo.

The arms might go up in Scraping Hooves because, at that moment, that's the path, of least resistance--though technically, the first move is a stomp to their instep as you step to the left. And like Crashing Wings, you step off the opponent's centerline initially, and keep moving off their centerline, precisely so you can't so easily be picked up/unbalanced. In this case, you drag back towards an attention stance and arch your back to try and head butt them. Still, the arms don't come fully up until Rep. Devastation--and as I mentioned, this more-advanced technique supposes that they've partly set their hold, bringing your arms up further. As for the attacker's attempts at takedowns after that, well, again, that's what the extensions teach.

Thanks.


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Leave out example of law enforcement as an example of "real fights".  Police cannot box a guy or kick him and break their knees, nor can they kick him in the thighs, generally speaking.
> 
> For them, BJJ is an excellent compliment to their Kenpo, as they are required to "restrain" a subject, not beat the snot out of them.  But in no way is this anything like a standup bar fight or when I worked as a bouncer.
> 
> The only fatalities I have seen in law enforcement were gun related shootings ... EXCEPT for excessive use of force when handcuffing.  Several deaths have been attributed to a guy suffocating while on his stomach, for various reasons.
> 
> The only time I went to the ground, in the real world, was when I was trying to restrain someone, in a "real world" fight, I have stayed on my feet.
> 
> Sure, prepare to fight on the ground if you want.  BUT QUIT TRYING TO SELL IT AS A "REAL" FIGHT.  It may or may not be, and certainly will not be for me unless the goal is to restrain the opponent.
> 
> Yours in Kenpo *



I worked for the Dept. of Coreections a few years ago.  While in the academy, we were taught certain SD tech. that we could use in the event we were attacked by an inmate.  Some of the things that were included were elbows, knees, as well as restraining tech.  Of course, a Correction officer or police officer cannot pound the suspect, but the goal of this person is to avoid going to jail, and if he had the chance to take the cops gun and shoot, then he's going to do it.   Don't compare a bar fight to a police officer.  You dont arrest the guy in the bar, you throw him out.  Bouncers are not cops.  It is a totally different field.  Officers are taught to use the same amount of force as they are met with.  If the guy is empty handed, the use the peper spray, or baton.  If the guy has a gun, then they use their gun.  Are you telling me that in a real fight that it is ok to pound the snot out of someone?  Of course not.  You use the same amount of force to control the person.  If a drunk friend gives you a hard time at a party, you're not going to break his nose--you use a submission-ie armlock.

Every time an officer leaves for work, he runs the chance of never coming home.  If they encounter a situation, they do what they have to do to come out of it ok.  Don't say that they are not fighting for their lives, because, if they encounter a suspect with a gun, it will be a fight for their life!  If you have no idea about what its like being a cop, DO NOT COMMENT ON THE SUBJECT!!

Also, if in your "encounters" you have never gone to the ground, that is great.  However, I"m not saying that you have to spend 20 yrs. learning to grapple, but you should have some understanding of it.  To say that you will never find yourself of the ground, could turn out to be a mistake.  We have no idea of the skills of the people that we encounter every day.  They guy that confronts you might have wrestled for 5 yrs.  If that was the case, then I'd be glad that I had some ground expereince.

Mike


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## ProfessorKenpo

I got a chance to play with an officer in the Las Vegas Police dept.. last week.  Hell of nice guy and I was asking about some of the search and cuff procedures.    He had me on his hood faster than I thought and showed me (I'm always amazed at the fingerprints on these guys' cars LOL).    I was quite impressed with their procedures, even against guys trained like myself.   He was ready for almost anything I could throw at him and had control the whole time.     I can only hope that other PD's pick up some of these control procedures cuz it certainly isn't happening from what I've seen on some tapes on TV.     I hope I get a chance to work with other officers and let them know there are some pretty dangerous people out there, and they should always prepare for the worst case scenario.    Big Cudos to the Las Vegas PD for their efforts.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Fastmover

Guys,

No doubt going to the ground in a bar environment is bad. Still doesnt change the fact that it can happen, in fact happened to one of my best friends who was bouncing at a club. Lets pretend for a minute that there are those of you who can avoid going to the ground, but what about your students? Female students? 

I have two  daughters and the situation scares me to death. The odds of them going to the ground during an assault is very high if they are not already there. They could be laying in bed sleeping when attacked or the attack or it could come from a date rape situation god forbid.  During the assualt the guy is going to attempt to place himself between the gals legs. It just would seem smart to me to provide these type of students with the vocabulary of motion to escape the situation.  

For us rough and tough guys we should have methods of escaping and getting back to our feet. I do not mean to imply that we should continue to lay on the ground and roll around. However, there are some individuals who work in law enforcement or security who are forced to deal with an individual on the ground. 


In other news:

I noticed on the Kenponet Mr. Bob White speaking about Jeff Newton a Kenpo Black Belt who won his King Of the Cage match. He won it by submitting the guy with an ankle lock. Yep you heard me.....a Kenpo guy doing an ankle lock on the ground. Congrats to him!!!!! Bob White overall must have some of the best fighters in the Kenpo community. His guys are always winning something and all I hear is good things about him as an instructor.

Be Good

John


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## ProfessorKenpo

Jeff Newton is an incredible fighter, I've seen him fight and know him, along with some of Mr. White's other BB's,  Jamie Matthews being another.     There aren't too many guys that can beat them vertically or horizontally, period.    I also know for a fact that the rules of engagement in the ring preclude any elbows or strikes to the spine or base of neck.    I'm sure if Jeff would've use his normal Kenpo stuff the guy would have never submitted to his ankle lock, cuz he would've been down in about 10 second, fight over.     If you look at Dance of Death or some of the extensions you'll find some of those leg and ankle locks, at least I have, and learned to use them.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Excellent post Fast Mover.

Your points about basic escapes from ground positions is right on the money.  I don't want to turn Kenpo into a grappling art.  I do think though that Kenpo people need to know a few basic techniques to defend themselves on the ground.  And I do think we need to train those techniques in a realistic (i.e. non-cooperative partner) mode.  

The argument was made above and on the "Kenpo on the Ground" thread that Kenpo has many principles that apply equally well vertically or horizontally.  This is true.  However, while the principles work, where are the techniques?  We don't just learn punch defense techniques and assume the same principles can be easily applied against kicks.  We have specific techniques to protect against kicks.  It should be the same for takedowns and ground positions.


----------



## MJS

Thank you OFK and Fastmover!!!  This is the point that I am trying to make.  I have never once said that you should continue to roll around on the ground, but it is very important that you have some basic skills.  I"im starting to think that some of the people here that are so against the ground, is because they know, but will never admit, that they will not survive on the ground.  Fastmover, you made an excellent point--what about women??  If a woman is going to get raped, it will not be done standing, it will be done on the ground.  I would want to know that my wife or daughter will have an edge if they end up in that situation.

I enjoy Kenpo.  If I didn't, I would never have invested 17 yrs of my life learning it.  I'm just looking at all of the options that I have available to me.  Its no different than a boxer.  He has someone that works on his punching, someone that advises him on what to eat, and someone that works on his conditioning.  Why can't we do Kenpo for the standup, BJJ for some ground work, etc.

Maybe some of the non believers of grappling should head out to the Gracie Academy and see how their skills match up against a grappler.  It would be a good test to see exactly how your skills are to prevent yourselves from going to the ground.  

Mike


----------



## Fastmover

Clyde,

Thats a pretty good single leg takedown in Dance of Death! Me being a knuckle head Id hate for someone to pull it off on me!!!!

If theres a defense for everything then..........................?

John


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *I couldn't stay away from this one....  :shrug:
> 
> It looks to me like you need to get out and train a bit more and work these techniques and analyze them.  Just going through the motions will never reveal the answers.  I agree with Clyde...spend more time analyzing how they work, not how they don't.
> 
> I had an instructor that asked Mr. Parker how to avoid a judo hip toss once.  This guy was Mr. Parker's size, or even a little bigger.  He grabbed Mr. Parker by his GI, as a typical judo hip throw would happen, and turned to throw Mr. Parker.  All Mr. Parker did was simply check this guy at the hip with his hand, and the guy couldn't throw him like he was supposed to be able to.  Obviously Mr. Parker knew his judo, and his kenpo.
> :asian: *



Well, nothing against Mr. Parker, but its easy to defend against something if you know what is coming at you.  If someone said to me, "Ok, I"m going to to a Judo throw on you."  Of course, I'd have time to defend against it.  

Watch some of the early UFC fights with Royce Gracie.  He throws that front kick at his opp.  Why?  What is it doing?  He isn't trying to hit the person with it, he is using it to gauge his distance.  What is the reaction of the other person?  They move back.  Well, while trying to move back, all of their weight is going back, making it harder for them to step, and easier for Royce to shoot in for the take down.  These people even know what he's doing, and they still continue to move back.

Mike


----------



## Michael Billings

Mike,

I do have an idea or I would not have posted.


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Well, nothing against Mr. Parker, but its easy to defend against something if you know what is coming at you.  If someone said to me, "Ok, I"m going to to a Judo throw on you."  Of course, I'd have time to defend against it.
> 
> Watch some of the early UFC fights with Royce Gracie.  He throws that front kick at his opp.  Why?  What is it doing?  He isn't trying to hit the person with it, he is using it to gauge his distance.  What is the reaction of the other person?  They move back.  Well, while trying to move back, all of their weight is going back, making it harder for them to step, and easier for Royce to shoot in for the take down.  These people even know what he's doing, and they still continue to move back.
> 
> Mike *



Obviously it wasn't too easy...Because this guy came to him and asked him How to do it.  By the way, this guy had also taken judo for a period of time, so he was aware of the stuff they did.  But yet he still had to ask how to defend against the throw.  Doesn't sound like it was too easy to me.  I am also sure he thought about it for a while before asking the question.

If the guy stepped back from the kick, it doesn't sound to me like he knew, or had any idea, the take down was coming.  Or there was enough power on the kick for him to know he didn't want to allow it to connect.  And if the kicker was good/lucky enough to get the reaction he was looking for, and then able to continue with a take down, then that was a good thing for him.    But it doesn't sound like the guy being kicked at "knew" that the take down was coming after the kick.


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Mike,
> 
> I do have an idea or I would not have posted. *



Well, you know, every state is different, along with every situation.  Yes, I read your profile.  A close friend that I also train with, works in a mental institution.  While not all of his encounters have ended up on the ground, some have.   Recently, in CT., there have been many shootings, and many officers being accused of excessive force.  People always say, "Why did you have to shoot my son?"  Well, I look at it like, if I was standing in front of the guy, with the gun pointed at me, I would shoot too.  If a cop is trying to make an arrest, and the subject resists, then I see nothing wrong with putting him on the ground.  And if it is done in a forcefull manner, then fine.  Maybe if you didn't resist me, you would not have gotten hurt.  

Fact of the matter is, is that fights or struggles, in some cases, DO end up on the ground!  If yours didn't, wonderful.  But that doesnt mean that none of them will ever end up there!

Mike


----------



## MJS

Regarding the takedowns with the kicks.  I would think that if you wanted to know how to beat a person in the ring, you would study his movements.  Gracie has done this time after time, and people still fall for it.  Knowing that they are facing a grappler, you would think that they would have a good idea that he wants to clinch.  Forgive me for assuming that they all knew...my mistake.
Isn't it a normal reation at times to move away from something?  By Royce using this kick, his opp. moved away, having his weight on his heels, not being able to execute a counter.  This made it very easy for Royce to comlete the takedown.  Before they had a chance to react, they were headed to the mat.  Sure, could they have gotten a hit in? Yes, and yes, at times, they have, but it wasnt enough to stop the takedown.  Sometimes you have to take a hit to give a hit.  Is there a chance for a KO?  Sure.  I guess thats the chance that the grappler takes.

Mike


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Regarding the takedowns with the kicks.  I would think that if you wanted to know how to beat a person in the ring, you would study his movements.  Gracie has done this time after time, and people still fall for it.  Knowing that they are facing a grappler, you would think that they would have a good idea that he wants to clinch.  Forgive me for assuming that they all knew...my mistake.
> Isn't it a normal reation at times to move away from something?  By Royce using this kick, his opp. moved away, having his weight on his heels, not being able to execute a counter.  This made it very easy for Royce to comlete the takedown.  Before they had a chance to react, they were headed to the mat.  Sure, could they have gotten a hit in? Yes, and yes, at times, they have, but it wasnt enough to stop the takedown.  Sometimes you have to take a hit to give a hit.  Is there a chance for a KO?  Sure.  I guess thats the chance that the grappler takes.
> 
> Mike *



That is great that it works for him.  Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## rmcrobertson

Uh...let me try this one more time. 

I'm not arguing that nobody should bother learning any of the basics of groundfighting. I'm arguing that you don't need to go, "outside," kenpo to do it.

I'm not arguing that going, "outside," kenpo is wrong. I'm arguing that what you will find there was, "in," kenpo all along.

I'm not arguing that cops and bouncers and professionals shouldn't learn a lot about locks, grappling, etc. After all, if anybody had bothered with it, we coulda skipped that whole Rodney King stupidity. (Before anybody starts, the fella there who was way, way stupider than anybody else was obviously Rodney King.)

Only thing I'm arguing that I can see real, reasonable objections to is the idea that kenpo is not a martial arts system. It's the key to martial arts systems. One sign of this--as was noted previously, somebody with a reasonable knowledge of kenpo can explain what other systems are doing a lot easier than the other way around.

Not that explaining better will necessarily help when you've got, say, Bart Vale on your tail.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

I sense that most of us are getting tired of rehashing the Kenpo groundfighting argument over and over and over again and again and again.  Can't blame you.  

Tell me if you agree/disagree with or would restate my summary of our positions below:

We are in agreement on several fundamental points:  
1)  Kenpo is a very comprehensive system.  
2)  Kenpo principles are based on sound physics and are applicable in a variety of positions and situations.  
3)  the ground is a bad place to go in a street fight or self-defense situation.

We disagree on two key points:  
1)  I feel that Kenpo would benefit from the addition of grappling techniques and training to enable Kenpoists to stay up in the clinch and to escape from the ground.  Some of you feel that EPAK material provides enough to enable Kenpoists to adequately defend themselves in most situations.  
2)  I feel that Kenpo would benefit by focusing more time on "alive" training drills similar to Kickboxing sparring and Judo/BJJ Randori.  I feel that Kata practice should be sacrificed to spend additiional time on "alive" training.  Some of you feel that the best EPAK teachers are already using the right mix of traning methods, drills, and sparring and that Kenpo practice is very "alive".  Those of you who feel this way are uncomfortable with the de-emphasis of any of the major parts of EPAK that a major change in training method would require.

Given that many of the posters on this and other forums have different views on the future of Kenpo, I envision three paths for Kenpo to take in the future.  
1)  Kenpo traditionalists will preserve and refine EPAK curriculum.  
2)  Other Kenpoists will add/modify/delete Kenpo techniques continuing to build upon and maintain the core of EPAK while incorporating some outside influences.  
3)  A few Kenpoists will mix elements of Kenpo with other arts creating offshoots and/or new styles with little or no resemblance to Kenpo as it is today.  
It is fairly clear which paths you and I are choosing.  

I personally think that all three of these paths are worthwhile and I hope everyone here success in their endeavors.  I do hope that as we choose our paths we are cognizant of what we are doing.  For instance, if we choose a traditionalist path, we must be aware that we might be ignoring important innovations; if we choose a radical path, we must be aware that we might be losing valuable elements of Kenpo and that only time will tell if we truly had the insight and wisdom necessary to improve upon the original.


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

Overhead cross block:  In order to do an overhead cross block and move your skull out of the way so it doesn't get cracked (using the 45 degree angle and all) your cross block would have to be out to either side of your shoulder.  If this is the case, why not just teach an mixture of an overhead and extended outward block?  Your idea of moving to a zone of santuary can be better accomplished by making the block and keeping your head forward almost as if you plan to drive your face into their chest (obviously this is an overexaggeration so you can understand what I'm saying)

Leaping Crane:  So what you are trying to say is that you plan to leap to one leg in the middle of a fight?  Prudence and the basic laws of physics suggest that leaping to a what essentially becomes a single point of balance, a point which now is loaded with all the force that your "leaping" body has created, would not be ideal.  At this instance your commitment is total and directional change is difficult.  If the tech made use of explosive foot maneuvers, like a push drag for instance, then one simply slips the punch while maintaining a far higher degree of maneuverability.

Triggered Salute:  What is the ideal execution of this technique (for you)?  I.E. is the push to be intercepted before making contact, during contact, or after the grab has been made?  With all the different methods out there I wouldn't want to leave anyone out.



> the gun techs never rely on grabbing the cylinder/hammer so ya donts get shot in yer favroite organ or limb or head...they rely on getting out of line with that hole in the end of the boomstick, and staying out of line with it..any grabbing is only taught as a possibility...



Wow, getting out of the way of the barrel... you don't say.  So you don't plan to check the weapon or the weapon hand at all.  So you are saying that the gun techniques don't advocate grabbing the weapon at all?  Then why does everyone do them like that?  hmmmm

backcutting:  you mentioned that you get cut repeatedly when defending against the knife.  Doesn't sound to me like your knife techniques take backcutting into account.  You said that Entwined Lance actually relies on the backcut, hmmmm...... what if they just stab straight in?  Each technique should teach you how to check the weapon and or how to suffiently execute your defense while minimizing the chances for getting cut regardless of whether the opponent backcuts or not.

Twist stances:  How much power is generated from executing a twist stance vs. the decreasing manueverability and loss of stability created by performing this particular stance?  In a fight you would never cross your arms against your body because you could be pinned.  So why would you voluntarily cross your legs, thereby negating the use of 2 weapons while simultaneously destabilizing your stance?  If you think a twist stance is stable, then execute one have a buddy push you or throw punches and kicks.  Do you still think it's stable?  Anything that can be accomplished with a twist stance can be accomplished with a more stable, and fluid foot manuever.   

Here's something for you, if you have to be really big or spend more than 10 years in an art to make it effective then something ain't right.  A student should be able to have a few hours of training and have a shot at defending themselves, not come in and expect to train for 5-10 years before they have any hope at all.  There is something to be said for practicality.


----------



## Fastmover

OFK what a big mess you started, its all your fault!!! No really it is good to discuss these things and see were others are coming from. I may not agree all the time but I sure respect others opinion.

In discussing ground situations some have stated that they have never seen someone go to the ground in a real fight and this may be true. We in Kenpo have MANY techniques(Dance of Death...All of Long Form 5 for that matter) that teach takedowns. Anybody seen Tom Kelly spar!!! WOW!! The man is going to take you down!!! If we in Kenpo can do takedowns effectively, then by all means someone could be effective doing it against us.

John


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

John:  Yes.  I've created a mess.  That was obviously my intention.  I want Kenpo people to talk about broader issues.  I want us to think outside of the bounds of Kenpo -- beyond some of the stuff I've seen here like the discussion on the Technical Forum re whether Delayed Sword is for a grab or a punch or whether a front ball kick causes someone to bend at the waist or not.  If we don't address the big issues, then we risk retreating into our own dogma and losing touch with the real world.  The last thing I would ever want for Kenpo in the 21st century would be an art practiced by Kenpo monks cloistered in their dojo with no contact with other styles or with the street.


----------



## kkbb

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *I sense that most of us are getting tired of rehashing the Kenpo groundfighting argument over and over and over again and again and again.  Can't blame you.
> 
> Tell me if you agree/disagree with or would restate my summary of our positions below:
> 
> We are in agreement on several fundamental points:
> 1)  Kenpo is a very comprehensive system.
> 2)  Kenpo principles are based on sound physics and are applicable in a variety of positions and situations.
> 3)  the ground is a bad place to go in a street fight or self-defense situation.
> 
> We disagree on two key points:
> 1)  I feel that Kenpo would benefit from the addition of grappling techniques and training to enable Kenpoists to stay up in the clinch and to escape from the ground.  Some of you feel that EPAK material provides enough to enable Kenpoists to adequately defend themselves in most situations.
> 2)  I feel that Kenpo would benefit by focusing more time on "alive" training drills similar to Kickboxing sparring and Judo/BJJ Randori.  I feel that Kata practice should be sacrificed to spend additiional time on "alive" training.  Some of you feel that the best EPAK teachers are already using the right mix of traning methods, drills, and sparring and that Kenpo practice is very "alive".  Those of you who feel this way are uncomfortable with the de-emphasis of any of the major parts of EPAK that a major change in training method would require.
> 
> Given that many of the posters on this and other forums have different views on the future of Kenpo, I envision three paths for Kenpo to take in the future.
> 1)  Kenpo traditionalists will preserve and refine EPAK curriculum.
> 2)  Other Kenpoists will add/modify/delete Kenpo techniques continuing to build upon and maintain the core of EPAK while incorporating some outside influences.
> 3)  A few Kenpoists will mix elements of Kenpo with other arts creating offshoots and/or new styles with little or no resemblance to Kenpo as it is today.
> It is fairly clear which paths you and I are choosing.
> 
> I personally think that all three of these paths are worthwhile and I hope everyone here success in their endeavors.  I do hope that as we choose our paths we are cognizant of what we are doing.  For instance, if we choose a traditionalist path, we must be aware that we might be ignoring important innovations; if we choose a radical path, we must be aware that we might be losing valuable elements of Kenpo and that only time will tell if we truly had the insight and wisdom necessary to improve upon the original. *



Bravo!
This puts this thread back on track!
We should keep the kenpo on the ground argument for that forum.  Discussion of the polling questions is what this thread should really be about.  Whether it is ground fighting or not.  Should Kenpo change for whatever reason (ground or not) or should we now pulverize OFK?


----------



## jfarnsworth

This thread has been very entertaining to read both sides of the ideas. Keep it up guys.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Clyde,
> 
> Thats a pretty good single leg takedown in Dance of Death! Me being a knuckle head Id hate for someone to pull it off on me!!!!
> 
> If theres a defense for everything then..........................?
> 
> John *



The way I do DOD it's far from a just a single leg takedown, and what leads up to it is even better.    I've had this technique improved by my instructor and then I even my little spin on it as well.    Oddly enough, when I do it in the air you can never see the difference between the way I do it and the normal way most do it.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Fastmover

I agree Clyde that Dance of Death is more then just a single leg takedown and because of this it is much more effective. Judo and many of the grappling arts have very good takedowns but we do also within Kenpo. Throughout the system of Kenpo there are many examples of effective takedowns and "strike downs." 

Because of this we all know that being taken down in a street situation is at least possible. 

Now looking at this thing "from the ground up," what options do I have if Im on the receiving end of the situation. If we can take people down effectively then people could do the same to us. We need to prepare the future Kenpo generations how to escape from these type of situations and get back to their feet. Avoidance is the first step and Kenpo does address this in many areas. However for us mentally challenged guys who might react slower and get caught off gaurd, learning to escape from the ground and having the curriculum in place to teach this would be greatly helpful. 

I have a video of Mr Parker doing a technique on Frank Trejo on a TV show demonstrating Kenpo. Surprisingly Mr. Parker Slipped and feel right on his butt. Even the greatest can slip and find themselves on the ground.

Be Good

John


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *I agree Clyde that Dance of Death is more then just a single leg takedown and because of this it is much more effective. Judo and many of the grappling arts have very good takedowns but we do also within Kenpo. Throughout the system of Kenpo there are many examples of effective takedowns and "strike downs."
> 
> Because of this we all know that being taken down in a street situation is at least possible.
> 
> Now looking at this thing "from the ground up," what options do I have if Im on the receiving end of the situation. If we can take people down effectively then people could do the same to us. We need to prepare the future Kenpo generations how to escape from these type of situations and get back to their feet. Avoidance is the first step and Kenpo does address this in many areas. However for us mentally challenged guys who might react slower and get caught off gaurd, learning to escape from the ground and having the curriculum in place to teach this would be greatly helpful.
> 
> I have a video of Mr Parker doing a technique on Frank Trejo on a TV show demonstrating Kenpo. Surprisingly Mr. Parker Slipped and feel right on his butt. Even the greatest can slip and find themselves on the ground.
> 
> Be Good
> 
> John *



Believe me, I consider these scenarios as well, which is why we have sensitivity training.   It boils down to who is better prepared.   I've just mentioned something about doing a video series on reversals, enhancements, and using the equation formula to maximize the efficiency of your techniques.   Training drills designed to teach you sensitivity is one of these methods.    I attempt to teach people Murphy's Law when it comes to the execution of technique, and when done ineffectively, how to reverse their action to your benefit.     It reminds me of ECM, ECCM, ECCCM, ECCCCM, etc.    Counter to Counter to Counter.   It works for me.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## rmcrobertson

First off, I reject the premises of the poll's questions. It simply isn't as simple as tradition vs. change, and never was, in part because of the inherently-radical nature of kenpo.

As for the questions about my responses to the "bad techniques," well, here's one response only. The initial post claimed that a gun tech such as Capturing the Rod couldn't work because, with the advent of new gun technology, it was impossible to get your hand in to stop the cylinder, slide, or hammer. Uh...that's why I pointed out the the principal object of the first two moves was NOT to get your hand in to stop the cylinder, slide or hammer, but to move your body out of line and to deflect the gun. I might add that it wouldn't make any real difference if it was a matchlock...

As for the stuff about Leaping Crane and crane/twist stances--no, I don't plan to stand there. Most likely, these are transitional stances, and they work the way I said they work. Just FYI, I also don't plan to stand there in front of the guy with my hands up in some version of a boxer's pose, either.

And again--I just don't get why it is that when I and others point out that we are already getting, and have been for some time, the kind of training that traditional kenpo supposedly doesn't have--even when Clyde posts a picture of something kenpo doesn't have--it gets ignored.

I better go eat supper. We are now in a situation in which Clyde is being far more polite than the damn English professor.

Thanks for the discussion,
Robert


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Uh...let me try this one more time.
> 
> I'm not arguing that nobody should bother learning any of the basics of groundfighting. I'm arguing that you don't need to go, "outside," kenpo to do it.
> 
> I'm not arguing that going, "outside," kenpo is wrong. I'm arguing that what you will find there was, "in," kenpo all along.
> 
> Not sure I'm following you on this.  I understand that Kenpo has tech. that include takedowns.  There are strikes to the downed opp.  I don't see Kenpo addressing what to do if you are on the ground with someone mounted on you, punching you.  Show me where in Kenpo this is?
> 
> I believe that the point of this thread was- Kenpo in the 21st century.  It was supposed to get everybodys thoughts as to where Kenpo is going in the future and what needs to be added or deleted to make it more of a complete system.  I don't understand what the problem is here?  I mean, Parker himself changed it, so why not change it again?  Why not add something in to make it more up to date with todays world?  Is that so wrong?  I'm not saying add an entire grappling program, but why not address the issue, seeing that it is not in there.  Why not address more weapon attacks?  Kenpo is a devastating art.  All of the techs. if applied correctly, can cause alot of damage.  But, is every situation going to require that amount of force?  Why not add in some controlling tech.
> 
> I might be wrong, but I thought that this was the idea of this thread???  To see where Kenpo was going!
> 
> Mike*


----------



## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Overhead cross block:  In order to do an overhead cross block and move your skull out of the way so it doesn't get cracked (using the 45 degree angle and all) your cross block would have to be out to either side of your shoulder.  If this is the case, why not just teach an mixture of an overhead and extended outward block?  Your idea of moving to a zone of santuary can be better accomplished by making the block and keeping your head forward almost as if you plan to drive your face into their chest (obviously this is an overexaggeration so you can understand what I'm saying)
> 
> Leaping Crane:  So what you are trying to say is that you plan to leap to one leg in the middle of a fight?  Prudence and the basic laws of physics suggest that leaping to a what essentially becomes a single point of balance, a point which now is loaded with all the force that your "leaping" body has created, would not be ideal.  At this instance your commitment is total and directional change is difficult....*


Mr Yahho,
Man I'm totaly with you on just about every thing you say but my stomach just churned on this leaping crane thing. First of all one legged stances are transitional. Ever time we kick we stand on one leg which begs the question why kick so much but I digress. I think you are reading too much into the word leap here; all you are doing is stepping off the line of attack while moving forward then you either pick up your leg to kick or continue moving forward and away from danger, or you swing your left leg behind you and become neutral to your opponent. At the risk of sounding like Clyde here, maybe you you don't know leaping crane well enough to decide its a bad technique. I think stepping forward in "Grip of Death" isn't your best course of action; so, I agree with you premis that some techs are a little unsafe but you need to lay of leaping crane my brother.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Mr Yahho,
> Man I'm totaly with you on just about every thing you say but my stomach just churned on this leaping crane thing. First of all one legged stances are transitional. Ever time we kick we stand on one leg which begs the question why kick so much but I digress. I think you are reading too much into the word leap here; all you are doing is stepping off the line of attack while moving forward then you either pick up your leg to kick or continue moving forward and away from danger, or you swing your left leg behind you and become neutral to your opponent. At the risk of sounding like Clyde here, maybe you you don't know leaping crane well enough to decide its a bad technique. I think stepping forward in "Grip of Death" isn't your best course of action; so, I agree with you premis that some techs are a little unsafe but you need to lay of leaping crane my brother. *



Hmm, sudden Twist of Fate here LOL.   Seems you've taken to the Dark Side Sean.    You must stay in the light.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Touch Of Death

I'm of two minds on the subject, I admit, but it leaping crane for God's sake. Can't I pick and choose?


----------



## rmcrobertson

One answer, Mike, would be this...when I mentioned the two-foot bruise on my arm, I got it practicing peeling a guy off your chest with a minor modification of Snapping Twig.

Thanks...it has to be said, at least this thread kicks proverbial.


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *One answer, Mike, would be this...when I mentioned the two-foot bruise on my arm, I got it practicing peeling a guy off your chest with a minor modification of Snapping Twig.
> 
> Thanks...it has to be said, at least this thread kicks proverbial. *



Its a little early in the morning.  I"m having a little mental block here.  Could you offer some input on how you did this?

Mike


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 
> Only thing I'm arguing that I can see real, reasonable objections to is the idea that kenpo is not a martial arts system. It's the key to martial arts systems. One sign of this--as was noted previously, somebody with a reasonable knowledge of kenpo can explain what other systems are doing a lot easier than the other way around.



Very Well Said!!! I like it!


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *Very Well Said!!! I like it!   *



How so?  If an art does not address something as part of the material, how are you going to have an understanding of it?

Mike


----------



## rmcrobertson

Mike:

1) How to get dependent lividity all up and down the arm: with the attacker sitting on your chest and attempting to choke you, put your left heel-palm under their chin, grab the back of their hair, and push/pull to the right...much as in Snap. Twig, the second move involves a leftoutward hand-sword while the right hand pulls down and back along the arm...then, while dummying, worry about getting your ankle out from under so much that you forget where you are and, in descending, overhead elbow one of the support boards holding up the mat. Sleep with that arm downward, et voila...le three-foot bruise.

2) I can't say I get the damn thing, or the Univ. pattern, but both include the idea of encoding info into the system without actually writing it down. Another example would lie in the applications of those "worthless," (not at all what you said, I know, but I'm still on a toot about it) sets and forms...

Thanks.


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## MJS

Hitting the support boards.  Yeah, I see how that can give you a pretty nasty bruise.  In regards to katas...I've been in a discussion with others about this very topic.  This person thinks that kata is a total waste of time.  Well, it depends on how you look at it.  Dillman is big on kata.  Many of his movements are hidden in katas.  I do believe that you can use portions of katas in SD situations.  Of course, you will not be moving like you do in the kata, but you can take movements out of them, and apply them to your SD.  

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Robert:  You just gave an example of a defense against a choke from under the mount.  Unfortunately, your method will put you straight into an arm-bar.  This is an excellent example of where a good Kenpo technique would be incorrectly applied in a grappling situation.  Try this with a good grappler some time.  A better defense against a choke from under the mount would involve snaking one arm inside your opponent and then using both arms to release the choke.


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## MJS

That might work, but you also run the risk of have the person on top push your arm across your neck, allowing for a side choke.  I might be reading this wrong OFK, so please correct me if i am.

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

MJS you are right.  Straightening your arms under the mount or in the guard is a no-no in BJJ and Submission Grappling.  It will get you arm-barred or triangled EVERY time.  

I've also expressed pretty strong opinion on katas on some threads here.  I feel that the techniques in Katas (particularly Kenpo Katas) should be practiced as techniques but the solo practice of Kata in the air should be minimized or eliminated in favor of practicing the technique application against a resisting partner.


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## rmcrobertson

Sure, absolutely, counters have counters...which is what Clyde was saying all along. However, the point you guys had been making was that a) kenpo takes no account of ground-fighting and grappling, b) learning the stand-up techs, their concepts, their principles, has no application on the ground. Therefore...

As for handling the guy on your chest punching you in the face, which kenpo "can't handle," well, Mr. Tatum teaches (among other things) a variation of Circling Fans for exactly this. Yes, the dummy really tries to punch you in those classes. Yes, we run it more than twice, and I've now seen it in three classes. Yes, there are other ground-fighting methods taught too. Yes, they are all adaptations/employments of kenpo techniques, concepts and principles. Yes, it's important to learn some of this stuff.

As for the stuff about dumping the kata, and I am using the old-fashioned term deliberately...you are very wrong. To repeat myself, this is a beautiful illustration of throwing out part of the system, then turning around and claiming that all sorts of things were never in the system. If you'll look at previous posts, Long 2 (perhaps the most-traditional of the kata) has a section covering judo throws. Long 5 focuses on takedowns and dealing with people on the ground. Long 6? More takedowns, locks, etc...and that's just the obvious.

Sorry, but you are trying to remove from the system the material that brought you to the point you could decide to tailor the system for yourself...which means, you are closing the door on students who know less.

And not the least way in which you are closing this door is in denying that there's any point in teaching those really rather beautiful kata...if nothing else, removing the kata removes the chance for students to slowly, systematically, learn how to connect moves and organize their thinking.

I disagree. Strongly.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Robert.  I am GLAD you disagree.  It keeps our discussion alive.  If we agreed most of the time then we would have...the Kenponet forum...no just kidding...we would have pre-arranged technique drills...just kidding...

Seriously though.  I am glad that Tatum's school is doing good hard training to escape from the mount.  I hope that every school does the same.  It is a crucial skill.  I haven't seen Larry Tatum in action in about 15 years, but I always thought he was one of the best.  I really like his video tapes.  I have never understood the Parker/Tatum split which opened the door to today's Kenpo factionalism.  You are fortunate to have such excellent instruction.

As far as "dumping" Kata.  I think the techniques in all of the Katas should be preserved.  I think students should spend their time practicing these techniques against opponents rather than doing them in the air.  Long 2 is a great example.  You can practice Long 2 until you wear lines in the mat, but if you want to do the takedowns in Long 2 effectively, you had better grab someone and try to throw him down while he is trying to hit, escape, or throw you.

P.S.  As an English Professor, my grammar and excessive use of commas must annoy you even more than my opinions.


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## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Robert.  I am GLAD you disagree.  It keeps our discussion alive.  If we agreed most of the time then we would have...the Kenponet forum...no just kidding...we would have pre-arranged technique drills...just kidding...
> 
> Seriously though.  I am glad that Tatum's school is doing good hard training to escape from the mount.  I hope that every school does the same.  It is a crucial skill.  I haven't seen Larry Tatum in action in about 15 years, but I always thought he was one of the best.  I really like his video tapes.  I have never understood the Parker/Tatum split which opened the door to today's Kenpo factionalism.  You are fortunate to have such excellent instruction.
> 
> As far as "dumping" Kata.  I think the techniques in all of the Katas should be preserved.  I think students should spend their time practicing these techniques against opponents rather than doing them in the air.  Long 2 is a great example.  You can practice Long 2 until you wear lines in the mat, but if you want to do the takedowns in Long 2 effectively, you had better grab someone and try to throw him down while he is trying to hit, escape, or throw you.
> 
> P.S.  As an English Professor, my grammar and excessive use of commas must annoy you even more than my opinions. *



I must ask, have you ever delved into the Kata to get all the information out of them?   Are they to you just techniques, or can they be taught as a sub-level of the techs.?    Many of the applications in the form are quite different from the techniques, an entitly in and of themselves.    I continue to find information in the forms that would dazzle the most brilliant Kenpoka, and Larry is constantly showing new applications in them I would have never found on my own.     I like em' alot.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## MJS

When mounted on somebody, it is next to impossible for the bottom person to punch the guy on top, while the person on top has the ability to do this at anytime.  Also, unless you have one of his legs hooked and you are grabbing onto one of his arms, it is going to be very difficult to knock the person off of you, especially if he has his legs grapevined around yours.  

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Clyde:  I actually spent a large percentage of my Kenpo career focusing on Kata, practicing kata, analyzing kata, teaching kata.  I certainly have NOT gotten everything out of kata that is in there.  I think there is much subtlety in timing, transition, etc.  I do recognize that many of the techniques in the katas are different from the stand-alone techniques. 

The kata/anti-kata debate is older than the Kenpo on the ground debate. Of course, there are many many non-fight related benefits to doing kata and not everyone does Kenpo to be a better fighter.    My position is that Kata practice makes you good at Kata:  at movement in the air, at dance performance, at moving meditation.  

My point is that solo Kata practice is not the best way to learn technique application and to make the Kenpoist an effective fighter.  Practicing Kata techniques against a resisting opponent makes you better at applying those techniques and makes you a better fighter.  I wish I had spent more of my Kenpo Kata practice time doing bag work, practicing techniques against resisting opponents (instead of cooperating partners), and free-sparring.  I wish I had spent less of my Kenpo time doing Kata in the air and in front of a mirror.


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## Fastmover

The best defense against the mount is avoiding it all together!! I have found once the mount is acheived the fight is 90% over for two reason mainly.

1. Your opponent is more skilled then you.

and/or

2. You are tired or hurt.

Some off the defenses that has been suggested here to escape the mount are extremely risky almost dangerous. Extending the arms and reaching out can and will get you into trouble. Not only does it set up the arm bar as previously suggested, but if I feel my opponents arms extended in any way, I like to push his arm to the inside across his chest and pin it between our bodies. If this were a real street fight this guy is going to have a very bad day because I have him cross checked, I mean while have two free hands to finsh him off with. 

Another huge problem that will prevent you from simply throwing or pulling your opponent off from the mount is how they center their weight. I was taught not to center the weight 50/50 over the guys head underneath. Instead shift your weight 50/50 over the guys shoulder to set up a good ride.  This is one of the things the Machados taught me at least.

100% of the Kenpo guys that I have rolled with do not control their elbows in the various positions on the ground. This is bad for them and makes my job a lot easier. Even though Kenpo teaches us to Anchor the Elbows, many in Kenpo do not grasp the importance of this idea on the ground for some reason. When you are underneath with a guy mounted, extending your arms away from your body in any way while probably get you into trouble, this would include doing Circling Fans against punches. 

Just some thoughts

John


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Fastmover:

Right:  Avoid getting under the mount!  It is a lousy place to fight.  

Right:  People, including Kenpo people (I am a prime example) do not naturally control their elbows on the ground.  This is a great example of where Kenpo principles work in Kenpoists heads but don't work against an opponent without practice applying the principles in a technique.

And...getting away from the Kenpo on the Ground debate and back to the topic of this thread...I believe that Kenpo should change to incorporate more effective ground defenses and shift focus toward more "alive" training methods both on the ground and standing up.


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## rmcrobertson

1) I'm numbering everything today.

2) Couldn't care less about commas, etc.

3) You needn't extend your arms to reach his on the ground, any more than standing up. If he's trying to choke, he's reaching in and leaning in (unless he's an orangutan..in which case you're dead meat anyway, so relax and enjoy it); if he's trying to punch, he's reaching in/leaning in to get at your face.

4) Yes, you need to break his balance. With the second, "fan," try kneeing him in the left kidney. Note: this will not work against Tank, but it gives you something to do while you're dying.

5) I agree that if he's sitting on your chest, you probably hit hard enough that you're in trouble. However and again, the initial claim was that kenpo is fundamentally useless, in its present form, on the ground--because it includes nothing of ground-fighting.

6) Just offhand, I can think of...seven...guys trained primarily in kenpo that you need to roll around on the ground with. None of them are me...but I can promise you that I won't get caught with my elbows sticking out. I still recollect the time Clyde and Jeff Kolowski got caught wrassling one sunny Saturday afternoon when the family walked in...heh, heh.

7) We are now arguing about whether or not the "traditional," kenpo stuff that is used on the ground will work or not. Well, that's progress.

Thanks.


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## Kenpo Yahoo

> First of all one legged stances are transitional. Ever time we kick we stand on one leg which begs the question why kick so much but I digress.



I agree, thats why you kick low fast and hard.  A quick to the inner thigh and or groin is the highest you should ever plan to kick.  Kicking, while effective, can cause a lot of hurt for you if your timing is off even the slightest, simply because of the temporary lack of mobility.



> I think you are reading too much into the word leap here; all you are doing is stepping off the line of attack while moving forward then you either pick up your leg to kick or continue moving forward and away from danger, or you swing your left leg behind you and become neutral to your opponent. At the risk of sounding like Clyde here, maybe you you don't know leaping crane well enough to decide its a bad technique.



Then we are in agreement that you would not want to leap to one leg.  I've seen many people do this so don't take offence if your not doing it this way, but realize that the technique is called "Leaping Crane" and you will find that many people will actually leap to execute it.  

As for the ground fighting thing; if I were on my back mounted I could do 5 swords (an example of Kenpo groundfighting) but that doesn't mean it will be effective or that it is even a safe tech to try and execute.  Anybody can do a technique on the ground and say that kenpo teaches groundfighting, but that doesn't mean its a viable solution


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *1) I'm numbering everything today.
> 
> 2) Couldn't care less about commas, etc.
> 
> 3) You needn't extend your arms to reach his on the ground, any more than standing up. If he's trying to choke, he's reaching in and leaning in (unless he's an orangutan..in which case you're dead meat anyway, so relax and enjoy it); if he's trying to punch, he's reaching in/leaning in to get at your face.
> 
> 4) Yes, you need to break his balance. With the second, "fan," try kneeing him in the left kidney. Note: this will not work against Tank, but it gives you something to do while you're dying.
> 
> 5) I agree that if he's sitting on your chest, you probably hit hard enough that you're in trouble. However and again, the initial claim was that kenpo is fundamentally useless, in its present form, on the ground--because it includes nothing of ground-fighting.
> 
> 6) Just offhand, I can think of...seven...guys trained primarily in kenpo that you need to roll around on the ground with. None of them are me...but I can promise you that I won't get caught with my elbows sticking out. I still recollect the time Clyde and Jeff Kolowski got caught wrassling one sunny Saturday afternoon when the family walked in...heh, heh.
> 
> 7) We are now arguing about whether or not the "traditional," kenpo stuff that is used on the ground will work or not. Well, that's progress.
> 
> Thanks. *



BJJ guys do not do your standard 2 handed choke while on the ground. Doing this will expose themselves for a counter.  As far as leaning in to punch.  I was mounted on someone, I would not haev to lean in to reach you.  The person on top has the reach advantage, not the guy on the bottom.

Kneeing him in the kidney.  All he has to do is move up on the bottom person, and he will be out of reach.  Also, there are variations of the mount.  Moving to the side, while still keeping one leg over the person, will remove the threat of the knee.

Read the post by Fastmover in the General section.  Many good words of wisdom from EP!!

Mike


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## MJS

As for the ground fighting thing; if I were on my back mounted I could do 5 swords (an example of Kenpo groundfighting) but that doesn't mean it will be effective or that it is even a safe tech to try and execute.  Anybody can do a technique on the ground and say that kenpo teaches groundfighting, but that doesn't mean its a viable solution [/B][/QUOTE] 

My thoughts exactly!!  Thank You!!

Mike


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *I agree, thats why you kick low fast and hard.  A quick to the inner thigh and or groin is the highest you should ever plan to kick.  Kicking, while effective, can cause a lot of hurt for you if your timing is off even the slightest, simply because of the temporary lack of mobility.
> 
> 
> 
> Then we are in agreement that you would not want to leap to one leg.  I've seen many people do this so don't take offence if your not doing it this way, but realize that the technique is called "Leaping Crane" and you will find that many people will actually leap to execute it.
> 
> As for the ground fighting thing; if I were on my back mounted I could do 5 swords (an example of Kenpo groundfighting) but that doesn't mean it will be effective or that it is even a safe tech to try and execute.  Anybody can do a technique on the ground and say that kenpo teaches groundfighting, but that doesn't mean its a viable solution *


Ok, I'm with you then. I thought I lost you there. I think my premis is that there is no such thing as the ideal phase of a technique. In a steril enviornment such as a class room, unrealistic mutations and just plain bad habits will develop. Unless your hand is off to the side on a counter top or just plain pointing to the right, an "and" is created trying to execute a rake to the ribs. We are in fact on the same page then.


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## MJS

Oh yes, we are on the same page!!

Mike


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## Doc

> I've said this before, and it has yet to be negated. I can't say it
> factually, though, because I haven't learned the entire system.
> 
> I was told, however that once you learn the rules, principles, and
> most importantly flow of motion, and all of the concepts and
> principles intended in kenpo, then all of those principles can be
> seen in other styles and arts. And that one wouldn't have to
> necessarily study a system to black belt in order to "bring into"
> kenpo what you've learned.
> 
> I've heard that Frank Trejo has incorporated some serious sticky
> hands stuff into their kenpo, for example. But AFAIK, he still
> teaches the original curriculum, to teach you all that Mr Parker
> wanted to teach.



I think what is necessary is to not think of Kenpo as a singular entity because it is not, nor has it ever been. What is the original curriculum to you I can guarantee, is not the same for me and many others as well.



> I think it all boils down to your instructor and not your instuction. If you are continualy told that what you are studying is all you will ever need, chances are you are going to believe it. Rather than experiencing the vastness of information and eagerly trying soak it all in, it seems that all to many people are being fitted for a big ol' pair of blinders. Grapplers might try to grapple at the wrong situations but Kenpo guys should never choose an inapropriate range, position, or manuever, target, angle, and cover without "considering" the best course of action. Cross trainers see the similarities and it would seem that Kenpo guys don't want to see beyond their training floor.



Although that may be true in some cases, such sweeping generalities will not serve your argument. As far as cross training, that is a sport concept that has no place in a self-defense art. A true self-defense art utilizes many methodologies toward its ultimate goal. This is an old Chinese tradition. To train in one art while you are training in another suggests you have found a deficiency in one before you have learned enough to know if in fact that deficiency exists.



> I look at it as the base techniques that are already established, the groupings according to the type of attack, and how they relate. From there, as others have already taught me, the possibilities are endless.



That is one way of looking at it, but once again I suggest you presume too much. What established base techniques? They changed often.



> First off, the only justifications I've seen so far amount to a hill of cliches: "empty your cup," "We must expand and grow," "you should be prepared if...," etc. etc., yada yada.
> How about this, alot of the older techniques suck and won't work or have severe weaknesses that should be addressed. If you would like to debate the physics behind I'm all ears.



Now that would be a truly productive discussion for a change.



> Second--this "modernization?" Where's it end? First BJJ. Then--what? FMA for sticks? Kali for knives? Something else for guns? It doesn't look like modernization--or rather, it does: the sort of "modernization," that leads to, "planned obsolescence." You know, the endless discovery of new desires



What some call modernization, others call not learning what is already there. I tend to agree with the latter perspective.



> This is directed towards everyone out there. How come everything is black or white? Neither of the extremes will be good for the system rather a balance between the traditionalist and expansionalist mindsets should be found.



It shouldnt be. Traditionalist miss the point because everything must grow to avoid becoming obsolete or less relevant. However, expanionalist must recognize their own limitations and not presume they are qualified beyond their own personal use of the art to make changes for others.



> Third: a philosophy resting on the discounting of other people's experience and a rewriting of the past. Some of us have repeatedly noted that we trained some of this, "new," stuff right in the old kenpo school; some of us have several times noted that the discussion of all this, "new," "more modern," "external," stuff is right in Mr. Parker's books, or in the sorts of stuff that folks like Larry Tatum are writing.



Quite true. Unfortunately the quality of teachers of the material of Larrys stature are few.



> Did Mr. Parker not try to incorporate a number of the ideas, concepts, and principles from other arts into his own. For example didn't he study judo? So if it was good enough for Parker why would it be sacrilege for the rest of us? Also if you think Larry Tatum is teaching BJJ in his school why don't you just run down to Jean Jacque Machado's place in Torrance. I'm sure he'll be accomodating.



It is not a matter of incorporating. The idea of just adding to your kenpo is a false one. Although BJJ has some excellent points, it is a competition art based on judo randori, and therefore as an entity is not compatible with what most feel is kenpos ultimate goal.



> Fourth: the notion that somewhere out there is perfection. I insist it's a paranoiac notion--the attempt to fill all gaps, coded in contemporary capitalist terms. You know--more technology, shinier technology, that's the cure for everything. I simply don't expect to become a perfected fighter--don't want to, really. I'd like to become a better martial artist.



The true martial artist knows perfection is a false dream, but embrace instead the pursuit of perfection and in that process constantly improve their knowledge and skill. Of course we call that continuing education. Something some traditonalists seem to avoid, in favor of honoring the tradition itself. We all know what Parker said about traditions that limit growth.



> Well I agree. I also don't think we'll ever know everything about our universe or the complex science that governs it, perhaps we should quit exploring and just accept our lowliness. Sounds like a great plan to me. Or wait, perhaps we could learn as much as we can during our journey so that we can pass it on to the next generation to help them with their journey. You know that whole stewardship thing.



Thats what I thought the idea was as well.



> Fifth: way too much fascination with the idea of fighting and violence. (See Robert Smith's books.) Fundamental to all this modernizing talk are these ideas: a) the streets are so dangerous that you have to be prepared for anything anytime; b) you have to learn to inflict infinite damage, because the streets are filled with extraordinary fighters; c) it is impossible to talk your way out/avoid the trouble in the first place, d) strangers are the enemy.



As a person who fights with people for a living, and takes them places they dont want to go, I find some martial artist (if taken at their word) are having waaay to many fights and life or death confrontations. At least a lot more than I do. Either they are not being honest, or there is something wrong with the singular common denominator in all those fights.



> Sixth--who's going to "take charge," of all this modernization? I smell the Urge to Incorporate here, especially since the modernizers seem to really need to bring the Good News to us heathen. Seems to me like it's doing just fine without a large governing body trying to reign supreme.



That would kill Kenpo as most know it. 



> What it comes down to is this, in 2 generations no one will care what you, or I, or anyone else thought about the future of kenpo. "They" will, inevitabley, push in the direction of their choosing and there is nothing that can be done about it. Take comfort in the inevitability.



We have nothing to argue about there.



> OK, fine.
> First off, countering an indictment of cliches such as "empty your cup," with the claim that, "some of the techniques...suck," is hardly what I would call discussion of the issue. It has been my experience that the techs do NOT suck, our  understanding/teaching/application of them often sucks. For example, I've seen and read a fair number of folks who run the techs and attacks in a dead fashion, complain that the attack is sterile and the tech dead, and then try to rewrite the tech to compensate for what was their problem in the first place.



Man thats really the truth. Its easier to blame the Kenpo than yourself or even more significantly, the lack of quality instruction.



> Third, why exactly do I have to duplicate Mr. Parker's research? Generally, this is called, "reinventing the wheel," and though it is necessary to try and make sure that the particular wheel didn't need reinventing, it is also necessary to realize that the wheel's just fine as it is.



Agreed



> As for Mr. Tatum teaching Machado jiu-jitsu--please re-read. This isn't even close to what I wrote. And my running down there so I can get my *** kicked, why would I go play on somebody else's turf, by their rules, and expect anything else? I might also note that my whole point was that I don't plan to be haring hither and yon...



We have had some grapplers want to play with us. The first thing they say is here are the things you cant do. In general, they dont train for combat, but instead to compete. And they do very well in their own venue. I suggest rather than Larry going there, they should go see him if they want to talk combat. Lets use kenpo rules and there is only one rule in kenpo Combat.



> The whole premise of this thread in my opinion seems to be whether Kenpo should evolve to meet the needs of the martial artist of the day. If history of Ed Parker tells us anything, change is inevitable simply because as individuals we should be constantly learning and growing. Mr. Parker did this so why shouldnt we as well? Mr. Parker was Also open to outside opinion and thought and Im sure he was influenced by others point of view.



Quite correct, but once again personal growth is a separate issue from creating your own version of Kenpo (or any art)  for other people.




> A re we in Kenpo so arrogant to believe that we have all the answers and discount the perspective of others? Other opinions may enlighten our journey by providing a unique perspective.



Unique perspectives yes, however all information must be examined in the light of the overall concept of your Kenpo interpretation. Simple addition is not improving your kenpo but diluting it.



> I do not believe that Kenpo as a system will ever consolidate into one governing body, nor do I believe it should. There is to many differing opinions and a varying need to tailor the process of learning the system that best fits all the individuals out there.



That is one interpretation that tailors to the individuals taste. All kenpo des not do that.



> Everyone has an opinion, and within the martial arts we are all very passionate about it. Thankfully, there is an abundance of associations each with their own method of teaching principles of Kenpo. Some feel that the many splintered associations weakens Kenpo, I say it strengthens it. There is something out there for everyone and the uniqueness of each makes us all stronger.



It doesnt make kenpo stronger, however it may support the individual in  their own personal pursuit and preferences. However most Kenpo organizations have a shelf life of about 3-5 successful years before they begin to crumble. Its always been that way, and is happening as we speak. J Parker lost people all the time, just as others are rapidly doing now.



> I threw out a question earlier regarding the base of Kenpo. The techniques within the Web of knowledge are simply tools that help instill the principles and concepts within the individual. Change is interesting because if we follow the principles of Kenpo; again I refer to Mr Parker, there could be ways of changing the sequences in the techniques to solidify and economize a students rate of learning the principles of Kenpo. Principles are the base of our system in my opinion.



Most commercial kenpo has very few principles, but instead has a series of conceptual rules, along with any exception that you may tailor that works for you. Principles? Im afraid some take that word way too literally with most teachers.



> Its the principles within Kenpo that act as a guide, that not only help me understand my motion within Kenpo, but the motion contained within other martial arts as well, BJJ in my personal case.



Remember all kenpo is not motion based. Hebler, LaBounty, Herring, Sullivan, German, etc do not do motion based kenpo.



> I remember hearing how Bruce Lee would come to Ed Parker and even though Mr Parker may not have been familiar With the sequences that Lee was doing, he never the less could apply and explain the principles. Let be me clear that the principles do not change, the basics of physics for example are consistent, but our methods of explaining and the vehicles for understanding them should.



In Parkers case that was true, but principles change when they are conceptually and philosophically driven in a different direction. Additionally, very little of Newtonian Physics translates to motion based kenpo, which despite all the infinite movement is still bound by anatomical constraints when maximum effectiveness is a goal.



> Once Master Parker passed away, alot of people broke off and created new organizations. While he was alive, he was able to keep things the way he wanted to do them.



Im afraid that was never true. It is myth that Kenpo fell apart after Parker died. In fact a significantly greater number of prominent people left during his martial arts life than after he passed away. Many stayed in his organization but had de facto left and only remained affiliated with Parker for rank and financial reasons, but really already doing their own thing. Some even had their own patch (with Parkers approval) and never even  used the I.K.K.A patch.



> You could probably take 3 of his top students, ask them to perform and explain a tech. and you will no doubt get 3 very different responses.



..based on what he wanted to teach them as individuals.



> Parker changed Kenpo even from the way he first learned it. He made it more up to date with todays times. In my opinion, the only way to keep an art growing and up to date, is with change. Sometimes the changes are for the better, sometimes they are not.
> If adding a trapping movement from JKD or a grappling move from BJJ is the answer, then I see nothing wrong with doing it.



Addition is  not improving your kenpo. Other arts approach things philosophically different. Mixing philosophies rarely if ever works. That why other arts (among other reasons) exist. They have a different approach or focus in their training. You cant import information  without an overall examination of how something may or may not fit within the overall system and its philosophical approach, and then determine how, when, and where the methodology should be placed for dissemination in context.



> Several of the old IKKA club defenses were TESTED out. Mr. Mills had a club in his right hand, resting on his right shoulder. The guy who did the defenses was, I believe, a 5th at the time (wearing a lot of protective gear of course) and didn't stop the club once. All he had to do was shoot in a do the first block, and he was never able to do so.



I presume he was a Paul Mills 5th? I only say this because that would mean that Paul dictated the parameters of the assault as he saw it, and the student would go along. That scenario in my opinion is incorrect for the technique.

First, most dont make a distinction between a stick and a club and that is an important place to make a distinction. One of the things that by definition describes a club is  ..an elongated cylindrical item that has such significant heft, that the weight itself is what transforms the object into an effective bludgeon. Therefore a stick that could be whipped would not qualify. Further the attack would not start with the club on the shoulder. That would presume that he had to acquire it previously and walk to within range to attack you with it while at the ready position. While you of course observed with your thumb up your butt.

Anyway, in my attack scenario, the club/bludgeon is acquired from the ground first, and its  required weight will cause the attacker to alter their body mechanics by necessity to raise it above their shoulders and propel it toward the intended victim with one arm. Once this action is committed, the weight of the bludgeon itself would preclude a change of trajectory or orbit. Lastly we practice with the bludgeon striking the floor with a significant follow through as the technique was designed and taught to me by Parker. Of course you must consider the level this technique is taught and the lessons you are attempting to impart to the beginning student. Once a realistic scenario is prescribed, students have no problem with this technique.

Those techniques are not old and any test is only as good as the realistic parameters dictated for examination and evaluation. At least that is my point of view.



> Gun defenses: How many of you that practice these techniques have ever actually fired a weapon? Probably a few, but the overwhelming majority has not. {DO not try this kids} The last time I was at the gun range, a friend of mine was nice enough to run a drill for me. Facing 12 o'clock he aimed his 9mm to about 1:30 and told me that he wouldn't fire until he saw me move (oh yeah, I didn't have ear protection on at the time). When I lunged in the flash, and concusive "boom" from the bullet leaving the barrel resulted in an extremely disoriented defense ( i.e. almost none at all). Now granted that was the first time I had ever done that, and with a little practice I could probably do a lot better, but my point is that the vast majority who have never had the gun go off by their head would probably react just like I did. Am I advocating that we all go deaf from gun training? No, but there is something to be said for a realistic understanding of what you're up against.



We visit the range regularly, and understand the necessity of realistic handgun training. We also train for rifles and shotguns, and semi-auto handguns held high and sideways street style. A significant number of my students carry firearms of ALL type on them and in their vehicles everyday professionally. I understand what youre saying and I agree.



> I met a man here in Spokane who trained in a style of Kenpo that broke away in the 60s. He actualy said to me that Mr parker had it toguether in the 60s but sort of lost touch with the reality of the street in the 70s.



Mr. Parker didnt lose touch with the reality of the streets, but instead moved to commercial motion based kenpo for proliferation of a version of his art, which necessitated removing and/or leaving a considerable amount of information out of the conceptual design. Instead he shifted the responsibility to instructors who, for the most part, dropped the ball. Mostly because the students with no real world experience who came through the ranks ended up being its teachers. Trust me, Parker knew what reality was and continued to work on it. Dont confuse what was taught in some of the schools with what Ed Parker himself actually would do, and did, in a confrontation.



> Pehaps he has a point with some over-sophistication that may or may not be going on; however, I realized I was talking to a person that didn't even want to look at what Mr. Parker had been working on at the time of his death. His mind was made up and closed thank you very much. I listened to him bad mouth my school a little and politly left his studio.



Well apparently he had been around long enough so you might have listened to him. You never know what you might have learned. Obviously he survived.



> In response, the first thing I'd write is this: give me an example of a technique, describe the attack, tell me why you think it doesn't work, and--if we know the same Parker techs--I can most likely tell you how to make the thing work fine. If not, I'll check with Clyde--who reamed myself and others today in class on just this issue...I can personally tell you that Glancing Salute, Clutching Feathers, Glancing Spear, Circling Fans, and Securing the Storm freakin' work.



Yes they do.



> Moreover, it has been my experience that the folks who argue that "the technique doesn't work," are wrong. The way they do it doesn't work...and they (myself included) have a failure of imagination concerning figuring the damn thing out. It has also been my experience that some folks throw out chunks of the kenpo system on the grounds that they are outmoded or don't work, then turn about and claim that kenpo is missing all sorts of stuff.
> 
> The system is of a piece, folks. You throw out techs, forms, sets, you miss out on the way things are interconnected. Then, sure, things don't work right.



Funny, how the kenpo always seems to get the blame. But some seem to be quite happy where they are and do not feel a need to study Tae kwon dodo to improve their kenpo. Some need to take a long hard look at the guy taking their money and giving out those belts.



> Evolving forward in Kenpo is a complex dilemma. I agree with Rob in that we Need to be careful how to proceed so that we are not changing for the sack of being different. At the same time I believe that we should not be bound by tradition and not do something because thats the way it is in the manual. Mr. Parker was not a traditionalist and in fact he was a rebel of sorts within the martial art community. Even while he was still alive he was often criticized for adjusting the system through the years, some of the loudest came from within Kenpo itself.
> Logic must be our guide as we train.



I couldnt have said it better.



> Any time someone grabs you, either by the hair, shirt, or head or arm lock, it is considered grappling....standing grappling. So, it does contain some form of grappling, just nothing on the ground.



Stop that! Stop extending your experiences with your teacher and kenpo to everybody else. Say you dont do nothing on the ground. I thought we established the diversity of kenpo is as broad as its competent teachers?



> Working a technique that avoids a grappling situation IS NOT GRAPPLING. Yes they can be effective against a grappler, but for the most part they teach that strikes can aid you in your grappling. Deciding that Ed Parker learned judo so you wouldn't have to is about the most rediculous thing I've heard in quite a while. Hey I got one of those philisophical questions. Would William James think you were better off doing an in depth study of grappling concepts?



So you suggest that when a person tries to grapple with you and you successfully prevent it, then youre not grappling. Well thats because youre using a grappling philosophy/description in a Kenpo scenario. The idea that youre not grappling unless you get down on the floor is misleading, however if you choose to use their definition that is fine but say so. But you cant come to Kenpo and then define kenpo actions by what you do in another activity that is philosophically different from kenpo.



> Further, what I wrote didn't have anything to do with learning or not learning judo. It had to do with the repeated claim that none of the stuff I've worked over years is in kenpo. It had to do with the repeated claim that Mr. Parker left kenpo somehow deeply flawed, incomplete, full of vulnerabilities, and that the way to handle this was to go learn all the other arts in which kenpo was deficient. I reject these claims, on grounds I've previously stated.



I reject them as well. What Parker DID do is leave some INSTRUCTORS deeply flawed, incomplete, full of vulnerabilities for various reasons, most of them at their own choosing.



> Come on, guys. Those of us on these forums have about as much chance of competing on a professional level as the man in the moon. That isn't a reflection necessarily on what we study, or even how we study--it's just a recognition of reality.



And kenpo was never designed for any type of professional competition.



> Ed Parker did leave Kenpo incomplete. He was constantly changing, growing, learning and being enlighted.



No more incomplete than any man has left any art incomplete in his lifetime. 



> It only stands to reason that as he did so that he incorporate this new found knowledge within his system of Kenpo. I learned many different variations to many of the techniques through the years. Mr. Parker himself had a way of changing things. All that I am saying that as I grow and mature as a martial artist, I too must incorporate my new found knowledge into everything I do as well.



That is good just dont call it advancing Kenpo. Instead call it what it is, Your personal evolution of how you do things and a dilution or homogenization of your kenpo.




> I have been training in Kenpo for 17 yrs. It however is not the only art I study. I go to the other arts to fill a void that Kenpo has.



There we go blaming the kenpo again. Thats not fair. All of us have not had the same kenpo experience as you thereforte your "holes" are not mine.



> When Mr. Parker learned Kenpo in the 50's, few people knew Karate, few people knew Judo, nobody knew BJJ.



Clearly you make a distinction between BJJ as if it is somehow different form other grappling. It is not. It is however marketed quite well. All fights go to the ground? No they dont. The thing that separates or makes a distinction in grappling is not what it is called but, the rules used. The rules will alway dictate what it looks like.



> There were boxers, wrestlers, and brawlers. Kenpo is effective against these types of attackers.



So Kenpo is effective against boxers, wrestlers, and street brawlers, but not BJJ?  Well Im glad to hear that because kenpo people in general dont compete, and if they do they probably will be precluded from using kenpo techniques.



> Since Mr. Parker learned Kenpo, Karate, Kung Fu, TKD, Kick-boxing and JKD grew rapidly. Mr. Parker added to and refined Kenpo in the 60's, 70's, and 80's until his death. Since his death, BJJ techniques have been combined with wrestling and kickboxing to create a new style of fighting usually known as MMA.
> [/qute]
> 
> Sorry, bit that stuff has been around for more years than youve been alive. It is not new. Drop Gene LaBell a line and hell tell you stories about things before you were born.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A large portion of this debate can be boiled down to these questions: Does Kenpo adequately address the new positions, attacks and fighting styles that have emerged since Mr. Parker's death? Does it do so effectively? Does it do so in a superior way? Should it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes on all counts. But I dont consider a mount a new position. The first time I saw it was at recess by the schoolyard bully, who stopped using it when another kid smacked him across the head with a trashcan lid because he was fighting his friend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nature of Kenpo as an Art: This is an excellent question. I think it may be unanswerable and that is why there is more debate about Kenpo on this and other forums than any other forum. Is Kenpo "complete"? Is Kenpo a "Do" or a "Jutsu"? That is one reason why we are having this discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Commercial kenpo is a do with the emphasis shifted to your way to be effective because it is your responsibility, and that is all that matters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is why there are so many Kenpo associations (well one reason anyway). That is why so many are trying to bridge Kenpo with other arts. That is why you and so many others are looking deeper into Kenpo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Obviously that is not a bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> b) Teachability: Another excellent question. No easy answers, but if Kenpo can be taught, and these other arts can be taught, then why not Kenpo with other techniques?
> 
> c) Linking it all together: That hasn't happened yet. It may not happen without a genious as great as mr. Parker's.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now youre talking. Everybody since Bruce Lee thinks they can create their own art and fix kenpo. I suggest they be content with making it work for themselves first, then hopefully they wont have enough time to teach.
> 
> Man surveillance is boring.
Click to expand...


----------



## Michael Billings

... and he returns with a BANG!!!  

Comprehensive, articulate, and appreciated answer ... (that and I happen to agree with it too.)


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## rmcrobertson

Ah...ah....I couldn't find anything to disagree with in Doc's post! I have nothing to say!


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Wow Doc:  That was the longest post I have ever seen.  All good stuff.


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There we go blaming the kenpo again. Thats not fair. All of us have not had the same kenpo experience as you thereforte your "holes" are not mine.
> 
> I realize all of our experiences are different.  But, Kenpo is Kenpo.  Regardless, the fact remains that there is no ground grappling in Kenpo.  If one person wants to do it and the next one does not, thats fine.  I was just pointing out one of the things that it lacks!
> 
> 
> Clearly you make a distinction between BJJ as if it is somehow different form other grappling. It is not. It is however marketed quite well. All fights go to the ground? No they dont. The thing that separates or makes a distinction in grappling is not what it is called but, the rules used. The rules will alway dictate what it looks like.
> 
> Never said all fights go to the ground.  I'm disagreeing with some that are saying that NO fight ever goes to the ground.
> 
> 
> So Kenpo is effective against boxers, wrestlers, and street brawlers, but not BJJ?  Well Im glad to hear that because kenpo people in general dont compete, and if they do they probably will be precluded from using kenpo techniques.
> 
> It is very effective against other stand up arts.  However, when you take the stand up fighter out of his world and into the grapplers, he'll most likely be a fish out of water, especially if they have no training on the ground.  Also, alot of the BJJ fighters cross train in boxing and kicking, so therefore, if the Kenpo guy starts to strike, the BJJ fighter will most likely start to do the same.
> 
> Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Doc:  Your post excellently rebutted many of the major points made in this thread.  Can you provide a short summary of your position on where Kenpo is/should be headed in the future?  I'd love to hear your opinion.


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## Fastmover

"I presume he was a Paul Mills 5th? I only say this because that would mean that Paul dictated the parameters of the assault as he saw it, and the student would go along. That scenario in my opinion is incorrect for the technique."

Actually I was there during this demo and the defender was wearing a helmet and pads as protection. This individual; I wont say his name, was an advanced black who had trained personally under Mr Parker. He was chosen for this demo for this reason as he knew and performed the Parker techniques very well. There was no set up, just "im going to hit you and you defend." 

As for the weapon used well does it really matter? It was a wooden stick and Mr Mills did swing hard enough to break the wooden club across the helmet. 

I have seen seminars in the past were the instructor "dictated the parameters" to make a point, I was there during this demo sitting 10 feet away and it did not happen. 

Just what I saw nothing else,

John


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## Kenpo Yahoo

> I presume he was a Paul Mills 5th? I only say this because that would mean that Paul dictated the parameters of the assault as he saw it, and the student would go along. That scenario in my opinion is incorrect for the technique.



Actually I believe he was either a direct student of Parker or a direct student of Conatser.  Either way, he was dead set on making the techs work, which he could never do.



> First, most dont make a distinction between a stick and a club and that is an important place to make a distinction. One of the things that by definition describes a club is ..an elongated cylindrical item that has such significant heft, that the weight itself is what transforms the object into an effective bludgeon. Therefore a stick that could be whipped would not qualify.



Huh, so your saying that your techniques don't take into account the possible maneuverability of a hand held weapon? 



> Further the attack would not start with the club on the shoulder. That would presume that he had to acquire it previously and walk to within range to attack you with it while at the ready position. While you of course observed with your thumb up your butt.



There is a difference between situational awareness and clairvoyance.  The idea of total situational awareness is a myth, events can and will unfold without your previous knowledge.  I would much rather know how to function in this high stress environment than pray that he has to do what you describe next.



> Anyway, in my attack scenario, the club/bludgeon is acquired from the ground first, and its required weight will cause the attacker to alter their body mechanics by necessity to raise it above their shoulders and propel it toward the intended victim with one arm.



at this point your attacker has done everything but send out a memo stating his malicious intent.  Most people are cheap shot artists, why? Cause it works.  The element of surprise can be a powerful tool, train for that.



> It is not a matter of incorporating. The idea of just adding to your kenpo is a false one. Although BJJ has some excellent points, it is a competition art based on judo randori, and therefore as an entity is not compatible with what most feel is kenpos ultimate goal.



Perhaps you would be so kind to enlighten us all as to kenpo's ultimate goal.  So BJJ pratictioners have NO fighting ability?  interesting, on the whole they seem to be in better shape and have a far greater understanding of opponent control than the kenpo guys (obviously there are exceptions but not many).  Also I don't think that the simple addition of a handful of techniques is the answer, rather the mindset and training methodologies are where the true value is.



> Additionally, very little of Newtonian Physics translates to motion based kenpo, which despite all the infinite movement is still bound by anatomical constraints when maximum effectiveness is a goal.



Why don't you name one aspect that *ISN'T* bound by anatomical contraints?  To say that your SCIENCE isn't bound by anatomical constraints is to suggest that you could attack without your body.


Happy 4th everybody.


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## Touch Of Death

Doc,
your talk of instructors dropping the ball is exactly what we "evolutionists" are talking about. Sure everything is in kenpo but is every instructor and every student up to the task of making kenpo work on the ground or in the ring against one of those bad *** Muay Thai fighters? You said it your self...  "no."
That being the case, I see nothing wrong with rising above the human imperfections that arise and taking a look at what the specialists are doing.


----------



## Doc

> Unfortunately, when Parked died, the Kenpo world exploded. What I mean by this, is that, Parker was able to keep order and decide what and how the material was to be taught. Now look at it. Everybody has their own way of teaching, doing things, etc. Will there ever be one person to take control? Probably not.



That is absolutely incorrect. Parker had only a moderate amount of influence on the majority of his teachers, to the extent they themselves wanted to be promoted. The individual instructor has always interpreted the commercial art. Parker would look at what they were doing and make suggestions, but NEVER gave a definitive way to do ANYTHING. If it worked for them and didnt violate any major ideas (and sometimes even if they did), it didnt matter. It had to work for the individual as its paramount objective. All of these differences existed while he was alive. I find it curious that after he passed away some thought it would change somehow. That was the secret to his overall commercial success. Instructor and student flexibility that was counter to the prevailing traditionalism of the day.



> Kenpo as an art. It is an excellent art, but it lacks certain things, which have been made apparent.



In your experience, which I might add, is NOT universal.



> As far as NHB goes. It was the intention of the Gracie family to pit one art against another to see the weaknesses.



Although I am not an expert on the intentions of the individual members of the Gracie Family, with all due respect, it was obviously their goal was to make their concept of competition grappling popular and lucrative. They created and owned the U.F.C. venue. They picked and paired the fighters and adjusted the rules in their favor, and gave themselves the prize money when they won. After 5 events they sold the U.F.C. for 14 million. As the idea grew and the rules were once again adjusted, along with they no longer having control of their opponents, they became less successful. Make no mistake the Gracies are good at what they do, but that includes marketing.



> I have trouble with the notion that NHB events were some big wake-up call. In the first place, judo and Gene LeBell were around long before...in the second, guess what I learned from the so-called NHB events? Don't get in a cage with some big guy who likes to fight, is in better shape than you can ever be (unless you drop everything else in your life), and is almost certainly more physically-talented than you are. (And just incidentally--everybody knows that professional fighters almost always pay a horrific physical price later in life, right?)



Bravo. The operative word here is professional. Kenpo was designed for everyday people to learn to defend themselves against common situations that might befall most people. This idea youre training to shootfight the Hulk is ridiculous. Neither are you preparing for this Filipino knife/stick master who is a JKD Guru in his off hours. In my experience truly skilled martial artist rarely have confrontations, and even more rarely, with each other. Repeat after me, THERE ARE NO NINJAS HIDING IN THE PARKING LOT. There are however bad people that will rob you if you dont pay attention. TWO men attacked one of my black belts wives, recently in a super market parking lot. She fought them off and survived with a bruise. She doesnt study the art. Good thing they werent BJJ guys I guess. Their superior fighting skill coupled with them hiding behind every Parker car would have doomed her.



> I still want to know how you go about teaching students. Just tell them, well, go here, go here and go here?
> I still want to understand the logic of eliminating all sorts of stuff from kenpo, then saying that there's stuff missing from kenpo.
> I also still find it interesting that some posters write that they learned more about Angles of Cancellation on the ground, for example, then turn about and say that groundwork isn't anywhere in kenpo. I find it even more interesting that, despite my several mentions of grappling techniques, there's still an insistence that some of us "purists," won't realize that a fight involves grappling.
> And just to open up a real can of worms--sometimes techniques aren't getting taught "differently," which is not what "tailoring," meant anyway. Sometimes, they're getting taught wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I had said that one too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the Concepts that should be avoided:
> 
> -maneuvering through a twist stance at any point during your self defense (culprit- several of the brown belt techniques).
> 
> -the idea of leaping to one leg while blocking an attack and performing an inward strike to whatever target you so chose ( don't want to alienate anyone now..) (take a guess)
> 
> -the idea of doing an overhead cross block against an incoming club.
> 
> -Triggered salute (the way that most people do it.)
> 
> -almost all of the two man defenses (there is no way that a prescribed technique will work against multiple attackers). Everyone argues the point that BJJ doesn't work against multiple attackers, well I'm not too sure that kenpo will PREPARE you to fight multiple attackers either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny we wear the twist stances out in our realistic scenarios with no detrimental effect. And yes my students and I do know realism when we see it.
> 
> Your one leg comment suggests to me that you are always on two feet, and that is a physical impossibility (unless you are a statue.
> 
> Our cross block works just fine. Perhaps it is your methodology and realistic(?) approach that has you mistaken in your assessment.
> 
> I am curious how you would begin the preparation to teach a multiple person encounter without a study model. Enlighten me please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> most of the gun techniques, for the simple reason that guns have changed over the last several years. You use to be able grab the cylinder, or stop the firing pin by obstructing the hammer, or even grabbing the slide. None of that will work on a Glock, unless you can jam your finger through the ejection port in the fraction of a second that it's open. Besides this, the barrel tends to fly all around the clock face before the final disarm (not good for any of us)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well this is true, and the GOOD teachers will address that in their interpretations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -How many of the knife defenses take into account the idea of backcutting (using a reverse path of motion)?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Course # 202 number 13 is one example. Its called Returning Lance in our curriculum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -With EP's background in Judo I'm surprised that no one ever questioned the purpose or intent of a grab or hold? Surely the intent of an attacker is not to simply grab you and hold on but to disrupt and control your balance either by maneuvering and striking (very cool drill Capt...) or simply throwing you. Especially the techniques from behind. Odds are if they are going to tackle, throw, or lift you off the ground from behind, you're going to be toast before you realize what's happening.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is your experience. My beginning students will tell you those issues are addressed in our curriculum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another good point about take downs did anyone see the M.L. baseball game where the pitcher did a double leg takedown on a charging batter (ok..... slightly charging batter) followed by a punch to the face. I'm pretty sure he's never had bjj training.
> 
> Am I trying to say that these are all my thoughts and ideas? No. In most cases I was shown why this wouldn't work, but in some cases I was able to figure things out for myself using simple logic and physics. I don't have all the answers, but before there are answers there are always questions.
> 
> Looking forward to everyone's thoughts, even if you don't agree.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, this is an easy one because I do agree with you. But as Ive stated before, I dont take it for granted that Im the only one smart enough to recognize deficiencies in SOME teaching. But make no mistake everyone doesnt mirror your experiences. You were shown why things dont work, and then began to attempt to figure them out. The guy that showed you why they dont work should have also fixed them for you. My teacher did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, I'm glad I don't train with your instructor, I'm more inclined to teach people how the technique will work instead of how it won't. I've addressed all these issues at one time or another in the past 3 months and how to deal with them, in fact, I addressed alot of them last Saturday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See? I agree. Everyone isnt having that negative experience. Some are actually addressing the problems. Others never see the problems because they are taught correctly in the first place. What a concept!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of vast amounts of time learning BJJ, we should be learining and using Kenpo techniques to negate and counter these attatcks, not add them to our artillary.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow, you just gave the gist of my next article in Martial Arts Magazine. Obviously I agree with that and am working on a companion article for the Asian Arts Journal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion, the changes that are needed (if any) will only come when one strong leader emerges.
> 
> Maybe closer study into what Mr. Parker was going to do with the system may be needed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I dont believe in the one strong leader idea. I think people should be able to follow and train in a manner they feel comfortable with. As far as effectiveness, that will be a judgment by, and for the individual according to their needs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I remember going to tournaments in the 70's and 80's and seeing top-ranked competitors do new techniques in Kata, Kumite, and Self-Defense-demonstration divisions. We'd take the techniques back and try-em. If they worked, we'd keep 'em. If they didn't, we didn't. To me, the early UFC and NHB competition are like tournaments 15 and 30 years ago. We had a chance to see different techniques and how they worked against each other. A lot of people started to learn BJJ because of the early UFC's. Eventually, Kickboxers started to learn enough BJJ to defend themselves and enough stand-up grappling so that they couldn't get taken down and could continue to kickbox. Now, many kickboxers can defend against a takedown and defend themselves on the ground so that they can stay on their feet and do what they do best. Shouldn't Kenpo people be doing the same? Shouldn't we learn from these top-ranked competitors?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Stop making sense, it ruins the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "I also still find it interesting that some posters write that they learned more about Angles of Cancellation on the ground, for example, then turn about and say that groundwork isn't anywhere in kenpo. I find it even more interesting that, despite my several mentions of grappling techniques, there's still an insistence that some of us "purists," won't realize that a fight involves grappling."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Perhaps if they were to read what they wrote, they might take it back. (or not)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well lets see I havnt seen were anyone else has mentioned Angles Of Cancellation so I assume you are refering to me. It would help if you identify who you are refering to. NEVER did I say that there is no ground work within Kenpo. Maybe your misunderstanding me so let me try and clear it up. There are NO formal ground techniques within EPAK; however, the concepts, principles, and theories of Kenpo can be applied on the ground.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know when you, on one hand acknowledge the great diversity and interpretation of kenpo by its many teachers, than make a flat all encompassing statement without any qualifications, it makes me wonder. I hate to keep saying it but please refer to YOUR experiences and ASK questions of others if you truly are trying to learn what others are or are not doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you would like to share which techniques you are doing on the ground?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for asking. Course # 203 technique number 15 is one example. It is called Pinning the Bear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also you and Clyde seem to imply that since everyone is doing something different, then they must be doing the material wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My reading comprehension is decent and I dont believe anyone said that. I can tell you emphatically that what Mr. OBriant and others are doing is different than I, but by no means does that make it wrong and especially if its working. The proof is in the pudding. No matter what personal philosophy a teacher has, they cannot condemn someone who gets the job done in a different manner. I believe that is why all these different style names exist. I dont do Shotokan or tae kwon dodo but if a guy knocks someone out with a straight punch from a low zenkutsu dachi or a high reverse hooking kick" while slowing destroying his hip flexor, Im not going to tell him hes wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope that this is not what your elluding to because that would be pretty arrogant on your part. Clyde if Im not mistaken your old instructor is Vic Laroux and since he and Mr. Sullivan developed the IKCA, they do things pretty different compared to traditional EPAK. Are they doing Kenpo wrong as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My opinion, nope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Robert, lets explore something that you yourself brought up. You mentioned knife defenses and their abilty to defend against the back cut, yet no were within Mr. Parkers manuals does it speak about the back cut.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you are depending on those commercial manuals for answers, no wonder you have questions. They were created originally to present ideas of attack and general defense to instructors to give some sense of similarity to the many interpretations. Ideas, and nothing more. Never were they designed to give you solutions. The also were not made for lower students, but they asked for them and ultimately provided a revunue stream for instructors. They tell you what not how and the really difficult things are not even included. The how comes from a competent teacher.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *"I presume he was a Paul Mills 5th? I only say this because that would mean that Paul dictated the parameters of the assault as he saw it, and the student would go along. That scenario in my opinion is incorrect for the technique."
> 
> As for the weapon used well does it really matter? It was a wooden stick and Mr Mills did swing hard enough to break the wooden club across the helmet.
> *


*

Well with all due respect, yes it does. Perhaps you need to read what I wrote again. Clearly if he broke the "stick" than it wasn't significant enough to rise to the level of the definition of a true "club."

If you are so tied to your position you are unwilling or unable to see the possibilities of what I'm saying, than meaningful discussion stops at this point on this subject.

If I put the correct object in your hand, and you are committed to hiting as hard as you can, and begin to do so, than .....

At any rate I suggest more examination rather than declaring a technique "old" or something. here are actually some people on this forum who have been around awhile who have some pretty good expereinces. perhaps they can present another point of view as well. Learn as much as you can, but be logically open minded.*


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Doc,
> your talk of instructors dropping the ball is exactly what we "evolutionists" are talking about. Sure everything is in kenpo but is every instructor and every student up to the task of making kenpo work on the ground or in the ring against one of those bad *** Muay Thai fighters? You said it your self...  "no."
> That being the case, I see nothing wrong with rising above the human imperfections that arise and taking a look at what the specialists are doing. *


Perhaps we are having a semantical disagreement. I suggest you say "personal evolutionist" and not give someone the impression you are advancing the art of American Kenpo for anyone else beyond your personal interpretation for yourself. That you are indeed entitled to do, but will not evolve my kenpo until you know and understand why I and others actually do and teach.


----------



## rmcrobertson

I realize that this'll be praching to the choir and/or talking to myself, but since the "no groundwork," came up again, I recommend:

Ed Parker's, "Infinite Insights Into Kenpo: Vol 3, Physical Analyzation II."

Why. The introduction draws a nice distinction between learning the base and tailoring the system, to begin with. 

Then, beginning with page 51, "Pin Against the Floor," (featuring someone who looks suspiciously like someone nick-named, "Doc"), and page 52, "Arm and Leg Lock," you might want to peruse:

Page 62.
Page 69-70
Page 131
Page 139
Page 141
page 148
Pages 155-157 (Frank Trejo groundfighting!)
Pages 169-170
Page 175.

I have left out the equally-long list of standing responses to an attacker ON the ground from this volume. 

Hm.

By the way, Doc, I appreciated the support from somebody who knows a little more about kenpo than I do.


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Actually I believe he was either a direct student of Parker or a direct student of Conatser.  Either way, he was dead set on making the techs work, which he could never do.
> *


*

You're speaking as if that automatically makes him good or something. the truth is the majority of Parker's black belts over his lifetime were pretty awful.




			Huh, so your saying that your techniques don't take into account the possible maneuverability of a hand held weapon?
		
Click to expand...

 There is differance between a "hand held weapon" and a budgeon which by definition lacks quick manuverability because of its configuration, weight, and a committed use. 




			There is a difference between situational awareness and clairvoyance.  The idea of total situational awareness is a myth, events can and will unfold without your previous knowledge.  I would much rather know how to function in this high stress environment than pray that he has to do what you describe next.
		
Click to expand...

Uhhh. I think you're speaking to the wrong guy. I know a bit about the streets. perhaps maybe even more than you. just a guess, no offense.




			at this point your attacker has done everything but send out a memo stating his malicious intent.  Most people are cheap shot artists, why? Cause it works.  The element of surprise can be a powerful tool, train for that.
		
Click to expand...

Last chance. You can't cheap shot with a bludgeon. and you can tell Paul I said so. His thing is speed, always has been. That's what he does, and he builds everything around it and modifies anything that limits speed execution. The last time he was in my school he was one striper working with some of my browns. I knw him and I knw what he does. It works for him so alls good, but you have to examine other perspectives before you toss things out or label them as "ineffective."




			Why don't you name one aspect that ISN'T bound by anatomical contraints?  To say that your SCIENCE isn't bound by anatomical constraints is to suggest that you could attack without your body.
		
Click to expand...

May I suggest a course in reading comprehension? read again, I never suggested anything of the kind and it is not MY science. And I'm not trying to be short with you but please you must read objectively and logically.*


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## Fastmover

Doc with all respect, You were not there so it is a little unwarrented for you to continue to speculate what was and wasnt done. You do not know the context of the demo. Again I saw what happened and Ive been around long enough to know when paramiters have been dictated. I also know that if the individual wasnt wearing a helmet the club would have split his head open. 

"If you are so tied to your position you are unwilling or unable to see the possibilities of what I'm saying, than meaningful discussion stops at this point on this subject."

I could not agree more with you on this subject. I have been around the forums long enough to know that you are unable to respect others ideas and thoughts. Any discussion with you is basically a mute point. Case in point your speaking about the aspects of a demo that you didnt see and yet you think you know more about then someone who did.......for whatever reason? Whats the point? 

You admit that you do things different which is interesting considering the topic, but I have heard your version before.

You have your opinion on Kenpo matters, other seniors have a different opinion of matters. Everyone is happy......................

Take Care

John


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## Doc

> Doc: Your post excellently rebutted many of the major points made in this thread. Can you provide a short summary of your position on where Kenpo is/should be headed in the future? I'd love to hear your opinion.



Well the first thing I have to do is remind everyone that kenpo is not a singular entity. Ed Parker himself went through various stages and some of them were extremely diverse from other things he had done previously. So any one aspect in kenpo is a snapshot in time when referring to the progenitor himself. 

So what are we talking about here?  Perhaps the early mainland kenpo of Chuck Sullivan, or the early Chinese Kenpo of Steve Herring? How about the LaBounty/Tracy influenced Kenpo of Tom Kelly? Then there is Dave German who added to the early Kenpo he learned after moving on in the early sixties. 

How about the successful competition based kenpo of a Bob White or Steve Sanders? You know Dave Hebler is still what he calls the Original kenpo and his stuff is good. Then again James Ibrao goes way back and now he calls his art kenpo again as well. Lets not forget Ralph Castro, or Al Tracy, and on. 

How about some of the newbies like a Frank Trejo? Nobody can tell me he cant fight. I have watched him do it. Larry Tatum is clearly successful and effective. Huk Planas has his thing that includes extensive Filipino arts and weapons. 

How about some pups like Dennis Conatser, who is as sharp at the latest stuff as you can get. Lee Wedlake is another brilliant articulate individual. Then there are some of the newborns like a Zach Whitson, etc.

Which one should we examine? I think kenpo will continue to evolve under the guidance of individuals who have their own vision, and always will. I think ultimately we will all be bound by a general understanding and lineage to Ed Parker but even that is no guarantee of competence or success. 

Many will maintain a relationship with Parkers organization while still seeking their own way as they see it. Many organizations will come and many will go, and we will ultimately learn Kenpo has become a generic term for a modern eclectic art of self-defense whose effectiveness will always be predicated on the competency of the teacher.

But I cant help but notice most of the best teachers of whatever interpretation you choose, do not sustain large organizations. Perhaps many are discovering what Ed Parker learned decades ago. Quality and quantity to not make a good mix, but indeed can be lucrative. Ultimately everything speaks for itself.

Just because the red show, dont mean you know  Ed Parker. 

Rest in peace my dear friend, the art good and bad as when you were alive, is going to be around for a long time.


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I realize that this'll be praching to the choir and/or talking to myself, but since the "no groundwork," came up again, I recommend:
> 
> Ed Parker's, "Infinite Insights Into Kenpo: Vol 3, Physical Analyzation II."
> 
> Why. The introduction draws a nice distinction between learning the base and tailoring the system, to begin with.
> 
> Then, beginning with page 51, "Pin Against the Floor," (featuring someone who looks suspiciously like someone nick-named, "Doc"), and page 52, "Arm and Leg Lock," you might want to peruse:
> 
> Page 62.
> Page 69-70
> Page 131
> Page 139
> Page 141
> page 148
> Pages 155-157 (Frank Trejo groundfighting!)
> Pages 169-170
> Page 175.
> 
> I have left out the equally-long list of standing responses to an attacker ON the ground from this volume.
> 
> Hm.
> 
> By the way, Doc, I appreciated the support from somebody who knows a little more about kenpo than I do. *



Your humble servant standing in the shadow of intellectual prowess, avoiding any additional tan.:asian:


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Doc with all respect, You were not there so it is a little unwarrented for you to continue to speculate what was and wasnt done. You do not know the context of the demo. Again I saw what happened and Ive been around long enough to know when paramiters have been dictated. I also know that if the individual wasnt wearing a helmet the club would have split his head open.
> *


*

So why did you talk about the demo if you didn't want someone to comment on it? I don't think anyone here on the forum was there so you intended to make a point with no rebuttal? Comments? What? I only commented based on the information you provided. You're right I wasn't there, and that can be said of any and all examples any of us might illustrate for discussion. I just use logicical reasoning based on what I'm told and know.



			"If you are so tied to your position you are unwilling or unable to see the possibilities of what I'm saying, than meaningful discussion stops at this point on this subject."

I could not agree more with you on this subject. I have been around the forums long enough to know that you are unable to respect others ideas and thoughts. Any discussion with you is basically a mute point. Case in point your speaking about the aspects of a demo that you didnt see and yet you think you know more about then someone who did.......for whatever reason? Whats the point?
		
Click to expand...


Sorry but I intended no slight, but you brought it up and I presume now you were NOT inviting comments. As far as respecting others "ideas," I examine things from my perspective as you do yours. So if what you say about me is true, what does that say about you? I defend my position with logicical reasoning, experience, education, and invite criticism. You simply say, "you weren't there." Something that we already know. 

I would have felt better if you would rebut my premise for the proper scenario for that particular technique. Inviting intelligent discussion is not being "closed minded" in my opinion.



			You admit that you do things different which is interesting considering the topic, but I have heard your version before.
		
Click to expand...

No you have "heard of" my version before. Until you are within arms reach you have no real idea of what and how I mean it.



			You have your opinion on Kenpo matters, other seniors have a different opinion of matters. Everyone is happy......................
		
Click to expand...

Very few are MY seniors, but I do make and allow that everyone should do what makes them happy. I am not trying to disuade you but only personally enjoy the enlightening interaction. You see I'm a student, and for my own personal growth, I am always "there."

Have a good one and wear your helmet. :asian:*


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## Fastmover

Actually what you are doing is making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. 

"I know him and I know what he does."(Paul Mills)

When was the last time you were around him to know what he does?


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## Fastmover

Uh lets see...

1. I did not bring up the demo but I did state I was there. I did this because you jumped to the conclusion about the paramiters.

2. You are right that I have only heard and read of your version of Kenpo. The same would apply to you regarding what Mills does now and until you are within arms reach you have no idea what he is doing. Your own logic applies to you as well.

I will say "your version" part does clear up some things and makes the point about change and direction. You are only going were Mr Parker pointed you, hopefully you will stop condemning others for doing the same.

Im going to the Lake for the weekend, I might even take my helmet. All you guys be careful,

John


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## Doc

> I will say "your version" part does clear up some things and makes the point about change and direction. You are only going were Mr Parker pointed you, hopefully you will stop condemning others for doing the same.


You know I wasn't going to say anything but now you've gone too far. I haven't condemned anyone for their views no matter what they might be. That's just pure wrong, and I am not going to let you suggest that I have. 

Disagreement yes, but not condemnation. I at leat allow you to have your version.


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *Actually what you are doing is making assumptions and jumping to conclusions.
> 
> "I know him and I know what he does."(Paul Mills)
> 
> When was the last time you were around him to know what he does? *


 
If Paul has a problem with anything I have said, he can and will talk to me personally, however you know nothing of what I know of Paul. Close minded mindless banter is draining.


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## Seig

This drivel gets tiring.  Here's the bottom line, there are different assosciations because people have different points of view and different desires.  If you are not finding what you want from your current assoc/instructor, maybe you should find a new one.  I will only speak of people I have interaction with, in this instance, I will use GD and Doc.  They do things differently, some things they agree on some they don't.  That's it.  Now as for me, I find that GD does things the way I want to learn and teach, so guess who I sought out as an instructor?  I wasn't looking to "fill in the gaps" of the system, I was looking to fill in the gaps in "my experience".  No two of us are exactly alike, I doubt any two of us do Delayed Sword exactly the same.  So, if no two of us do the first technique in the system exactly the same, why should the rest of our experiences and knowledge be exactly the same?  They cannot be.  There is a wealth of knowledge in the system, covering just about every eventuality.  Learn the system, completely, don't see something?  Ask someone who also knows, but sees it a different way, odds are, they will point it out.  Since I singled out Doc, I will now use him as an example.  If anyone were to say that Kenpo doesn't have nerve strikes, he could tear them apart usinf just the technique I have already cited.  How many nerve strikes are hidden in Delayed Sword?  I studied jiu-jitsu prior to getting into Kenpo, and you know what?  Having that backround, I see where it is already in the system.  Does that mean that I have to add what I know of Jiu-Jitsu to the system to complete it?  No, it means that it makes it easier for me to see it within the system and to pass that insight on along to my students.  Do some studying and examining.  All the information is not right on the surface.


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## Michael Billings

That is my point about using Kenpo as the structure for interpretation, analyzation, and development of Motion, regardless of Art or System.  It is what I choose to do and where I choose to stay.  

This does not limit my knowledge or interest in other systems of combat.  Indeed, we need to know what is out there.  YES, I do know "how to sprawl", but why should I grapple with a grappler when I have other options available?

Ah well!  Have a great Independence Day everyone.  Time for me to go tend the fire.

Oss


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> Although I am not an expert on the intentions of the individual members of the Gracie Family, with all due respect, it was obviously their goal was to make their concept of competition grappling popular and lucrative. They created and owned the U.F.C. venue. They picked and paired the fighters and adjusted the rules in their favor, and gave themselves the prize money when they won. After 5 events they sold the U.F.C. for 14 million. As the idea grew and the rules were once again adjusted, along with they no longer having control of their opponents, they became less successful. Make no mistake the Gracies are good at what they do, but that includes marketing.
> 
> The goal of the Gracie family was to pit one style against another to see who had the superior style.  You had boxers, strikers/kickers, etc. and they won hands down.  They showed us, well at least the ones with the open minds, that it is VERY important to be able to fight on the ground.  Look at UFC 4.  Royce fought Keith Hackney, who is a Kenpo BB.  Keith had excellent striking, and hit Gracie many times.  However, look closely at the fight.  Every time Gracie went to take Hackney down, Hackney panicked.  He knew that if he went to the ground it would be all over.  And sure enough, that is exactly what happened.  Regardless of if they sold the UFC or not, the fact reamins, is that the event is still dominated by grapplers.  Funny though, how even the strikers that enter into these fights, have some grappling experience.  Gee, I wonder why?  They are not closed minded and realize the importance of learning it!
> 
> 
> 
> Bravo. The operative word here is professional. Kenpo was designed for everyday people to learn to defend themselves against common situations that might befall most people. This idea youre training to shootfight the Hulk is ridiculous. Neither are you preparing for this Filipino knife/stick master who is a JKD Guru in his off hours. In my experience truly skilled martial artist rarely have confrontations, and even more rarely, with each other. Repeat after me, THERE ARE NO NINJAS HIDING IN THE PARKING LOT. There are however bad people that will rob you if you dont pay attention. TWO men attacked one of my black belts wives, recently in a super market parking lot. She fought them off and survived with a bruise. She doesnt study the art. Good thing they werent BJJ guys I guess. Their superior fighting skill coupled with them hiding behind every Parker car would have doomed her.
> 
> Yup, but not every MA can avoid a fight.  They do their best to avoid it, but it does happen.  For someone to think that they will never fight anyone bigger, stronger or more skilled needs a SERIOUS reality check!!  A BB, and I dont care what degree it is, DOES NOT, and I say again DOES NOT turn you into a superman!!  You should always be training for the person that is better than you.  But I guess for some of the close minded Kenpo people here that dont think that is the case, well, it must be ok for them.  I wonder how this woman, if she got knocked to the ground, would have fought off her attacker?  Oh, my mistake, I forgot...Kenpo is full of ground fighting techs!
> 
> Like I have said before.  I'd love to see some of these people who think they will never go to the ground, go to a Juijitsu school and test their skill.  Oh,I forgot, we are too good for that right!
> 
> Mike


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I realize that this'll be praching to the choir and/or talking to myself, but since the "no groundwork," came up again, I recommend:
> 
> Ed Parker's, "Infinite Insights Into Kenpo: Vol 3, Physical Analyzation II."
> 
> Why. The introduction draws a nice distinction between learning the base and tailoring the system, to begin with.
> 
> Then, beginning with page 51, "Pin Against the Floor," (featuring someone who looks suspiciously like someone nick-named, "Doc"), and page 52, "Arm and Leg Lock," you might want to peruse:
> 
> Page 62.
> Page 69-70
> Page 131
> Page 139
> Page 141
> page 148
> Pages 155-157 (Frank Trejo groundfighting!)
> Pages 169-170
> Page 175.
> 
> I have left out the equally-long list of standing responses to an attacker ON the ground from this volume.
> 
> Hm.
> 
> By the way, Doc, I appreciated the support from somebody who knows a little more about kenpo than I do. *



Very poor examples here.  I don't consider someone laying on the ground, not even moving or attemping to do anything, while another guy stands above them throwing a kick, ground fighting!  IT ISN"T!!  Show me in any of these books, an escape from the mount, side mount, the guard.  There are none!  The grappler is not going to stay still, while the other guy delievers countless strikes to the body, like you see in the majority of Kenpo tech.  You really think that is the way it happens in real life?? I don't think so!  

Mike


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> How about some of the newbies like a Frank Trejo? Nobody can tell me he cant fight. I have watched him do it. Larry Tatum is clearly successful and effective. Huk Planas has his thing that includes extensive Filipino arts and weapons.
> 
> Gee, now this is interesting.  Here it is right from the horses mouth!  Last paragraph....Planas has his thing with extensive Filipino arts and weapons.  Well, if he can do it and nobody talks any crap, why can't I say it without getting an earfull from all of the so called experts on cross training.  Are you telling me that he isnt going to add that into his Kenpo to make it better?  I'm sure he does!!
> 
> Mike


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## rmcrobertson

Dear MJS:

The photos I referred to--did you get a chance to check them out, by the way?--are precisely that. STILL photographs. Again, I was speaking to the repeated claim that there is no groundfighting "in," "traditional," kenpo....a claim I believe that you yourself have several times made. If you'd like to argue about whether or not it's any good, OK, fine...but that is a different claim from the one initially made and many times repeated.

Just as a general theoretical question: isn't it just as "closed-minded," (your words, not mine) to refuse to look at the stuff in kenpo that you're being shown? To eliminate all sorts of stuff from the system, on the grounds that it's useless, when you're repeatedly given evidence that it in fact has a purpose--even if nothing is perfect and permanent in self-defense?

If you'll read the post you've cited, I also noted that there were just as many techniques involving PUTTING somebody on the ground. Would you like a list? I might add too--I admit it's a bit partisan--that you must be the first I've ever heard so much as suggest that Mr. Trejo is unrealistic about fighting, static in his approach to self defense, or devoted to the impractical. And no, there aren't a lot of escapes on the ground in this book..though again I should note that I have repeatedly worked such escapes (no, not as many as a good BJJ black belt would know) in classes. And there are a LOT of escapes from grapplers' attacks.

And ONCE AGAIN: neither I, nor anyone else that I've read, is arguing that kenpo approaches the questions you raise in the same way. Neither I, nor anyone else I've read, is arguing that we can wipe a mat with Mr. Gracie, or out-grapple someone trained in a grappling art just 'cause we do kenpo. Neither I, nor anyone else, has argued that you shouldn't go grapple as much as you like. We're simply arguing that this has nothing to do with the inadequacies of kenpo as a system and as a set of concepts.

As for the notion that Mr. Planas and others are doing a lot of stuff "imported," from other systems, well, sure. Nobody's saying you shouldn't. What we're saying is, why not just wait, study, learn a good strong system thouroughly first, then "tailor?" What's the rush? Why not wait until you have Mr. Planas' experience?

Sorry, but some of the folks arguing the limits of kenpo--not you, from your profile--are like blue and green belts. It's partly the limitations of my abilities, sure--but I yield to nobody around my level for knowledge, and back then I certainly knew as much as any blue or green belt with only four or five years' kenpo experience, I had great teachers, I have training and experience in academic stuff that helps understand structural systems and their limitations--and I was nowhere near competent to begin monkeying around with kenpo.

Look. I've repeatedly heard Mr. Tatum say that if there were no kenpo, the thing to do would be to go study judo. Everybody with a grain of sense respects their toughness, their conditioning, their discipline, and their ability to wrap your arms around your head and put the whole mess where the sun don't shine. Hell, Gene LeBell's BOOKS ( still photos and all) scare me.

Let me ask this: what can you tell me about the limitations of the grappling/jiu-jitsu styles you want to "import," to patch kenpo up? Have you scrutinized them as fiercely? After all, we're not gonna settle this argument--and, sorry, but it's partly because nobody's making some of the arguments you claim we're making.

Thanks for the discussion. Have a good Fourth.

Robert


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## MJS

Robert- In regards to my post.  I'll start from the top and work down from yours.  The ground fighting you and I are reffereing to are 2 very different things.  While on the ground, kicking at a person who is standing above you might be considered ground fighting, it isn't.  Yes, you are on the ground, and yes you are fighting.  I'm referring to the various submissions and positions that are in BJJ that are not in Kenpo.  The pics. do not give a good reference, due to the fact that you can't see movement.  However, nobody is going to lay on the ground and allow someone above to kick at them.  The bottom person will be attempting strikes as well.  Let me say again, I'm not referring to 1 person on the ground and 1 striking him, I am talking about both people being on the ground.

I have looked at alot of the things in Kenpo.  Due to the fact that I cross train, I therefore am able to see the imperfections a little clearer than you.  If you have the chance to study another art, then maybe you will do the same.

I am not talking about tech. that just take the person down...once again, that is not ground fighting.  I'm talking about the tech. that you will need if you find yourself on the ground with someone mounted on top, trying to punch your face in.  The ones you mention in a prior post expose yourself greatly to a submission.  I didn't make any reference to Mr. Trejo being a bad fighter.  I said that the tech that were shown did not seem realistic.  NOBODY is going to stand there and allow you to hit them multiple times.  

You mention inadaequacies in Kenpo.  Let me say again, that a complete fighter is someone that can fight in ALL ranges of combat, because you might find yourself there.  If you are not used to the ground, how can you expect to defend yourself?  Striking, kicking, clinching, trapping, and grappling....those are your ranges.

Wait and whats the rush?  It might take 20 yrs to be proficent in an art.  Are you going to take another 20 yrs to learn grappling, another 20 yrs to learn weapons?  Of course not.  Why not include it in one package.  Look at JKD.  You have many things wrapped into one.

The limits of grappling.  Well, considering the majority of grapplers are punching and kicking, they seem like they are taking care of some gaps.  I would say that mult. attackers would probably be a down fall. But every fight is not going to have 2 or 5 or 10 guys.  You don't need to roll around for 20 min, but if you have the training to get back to your feet, then you can continue the fight standing.  Also, many fights in Brazil take place on the beach, and on hard surfaces, not always on soft mats.

In reagrds to the claims you say i'm making...well, I believe it was you that was talking about tradidtion.  Everybodies experience varies.  I see things in Kenpo that I look at now and think.."If I try this, I'm going to get hurt."  I want to be as complete as possible.  Like I said before, if I can take a few things from this art and a few from that art, isn't it just going to be making me better?


----------



## Kenpodoc

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Doc
> How about some of the newbies like a Frank Trejo? Nobody can tell me he cant fight. I have watched him do it. Larry Tatum is clearly successful and effective. Huk Planas has his thing that includes extensive Filipino arts and weapons.
> 
> Gee, now this is interesting.  Here it is right from the horses mouth!  Last paragraph....Planas has his thing with extensive Filipino arts and weapons.  Well, if he can do it and nobody talks any crap, why can't I say it without getting an earfull from all of the so called experts on cross training.  Are you telling me that he isnt going to add that into his Kenpo to make it better?  I'm sure he does!!
> 
> Mike
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> All of those guys Cross train.  I like Huk seminars.  He starts with the Kenpo base technique and works it till he feels you have it down.  then he gives you the candy and let's you play with different variations, some imported from filipino arts and silat.  It's fun but he never goes to the next step till he thinks you have the base.
> 
> Personally I think everyone should study what they want and the rest of us shouldn't worry about it.  I love learning bits and pieces of other arts but I've chosen Kenpo as my base and I don't yet have enough time to seriously study another art. That's my choice.
> 
> With respect to BJJ and other ground fighting systems Huk Planas would also probably tell you that the principles are in Kenpo but your out of Luck if you have to apply them without practicing the applications  first.  He points out that the problem with the Karate Kid is not Wax on Wax off but that there is no practice of application before he uses it.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Jeff


----------



## rmcrobertson

Dear MJS:

Sigh.

First off, your same critique might be applied to all those neat grappling thingies. Nobody is going to lie there and let that go on.

Second off---please read carefully---I don't want to be a fighter in the sense you argue. Not at all. Never did. Not the point. 

Third: yes. I actually would be willing to spend the twenty years. BECAUSE THAT'S HOW LONG IT TAKES. How long did it take the much-announced Bruce Lee? The Gracies? Gene LeBell? Anybody?

And last--you are mistaken about cross-training giving a clearer view of one's failings. I yield to no one in an understanding of my failings in martial arts.

You persist in seeing everything that disagrees as an attack. It's not. You should do what you think right--all I'm asking is that you maintain a little respect for those of us who see matters differently. 

Interesting reading in this context includes (because it'll agree with you as much as with me) Gene LeBell, "Handbook of Judo," and Herman Kauz, "A Path to Liberation."


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Dear MJS:
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> First off, your same critique might be applied to all those neat grappling thingies. Nobody is going to lie there and let that go on.
> 
> Second off---please read carefully---I don't want to be a fighter in the sense you argue. Not at all. Never did. Not the point.
> 
> Third: yes. I actually would be willing to spend the twenty years. BECAUSE THAT'S HOW LONG IT TAKES. How long did it take the much-announced Bruce Lee? The Gracies? Gene LeBell? Anybody?
> 
> And last--you are mistaken about cross-training giving a clearer view of one's failings. I yield to no one in an understanding of my failings in martial arts.
> 
> You persist in seeing everything that disagrees as an attack. It's not. You should do what you think right--all I'm asking is that you maintain a little respect for those of us who see matters differently.
> 
> Interesting reading in this context includes (because it'll agree with you as much as with me) Gene LeBell, "Handbook of Judo," and Herman Kauz, "A Path to Liberation." *



"Man is his own greatest dupe, fore he tends to believe what he wants to believe." - Plato (I think)


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Dear MJS:
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> First off, your same critique might be applied to all those neat grappling thingies. Nobody is going to lie there and let that go on.
> 
> Second off---please read carefully---I don't want to be a fighter in the sense you argue. Not at all. Never did. Not the point.
> 
> Third: yes. I actually would be willing to spend the twenty years. BECAUSE THAT'S HOW LONG IT TAKES. How long did it take the much-announced Bruce Lee? The Gracies? Gene LeBell? Anybody?
> 
> And last--you are mistaken about cross-training giving a clearer view of one's failings. I yield to no one in an understanding of my failings in martial arts.
> 
> You persist in seeing everything that disagrees as an attack. It's not. You should do what you think right--all I'm asking is that you maintain a little respect for those of us who see matters differently.
> 
> Interesting reading in this context includes (because it'll agree with you as much as with me) Gene LeBell, "Handbook of Judo," and Herman Kauz, "A Path to Liberation." *



Robert- In regards to the grappling, I have said that on the street, you will not be laying there rolling around for 20min.  All I am referring to, is learning the basic moves--enough to defend yourself and get back to your feet, where you have the option to continue the fight or run.  Thats all---nothing more, nothing less!

I never said that you or anybody should enter into the next UFC.  Please stop making it sound like I'm saying these things when I AM NOT!!  EVERYBODY is entitled to train and learn as they want.  Was this thread titled "KENPO IN THE 21ST CENTURY"  I understood it as, what do we need to do to the system to make it ready for the 21st century.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding the thread.  You are welcome to train and to take your training to any level you want.  I'm not holding a gun to your head, making you train the way I do.

In regards to the cross training.  If its something that you wish to do, fine, if not, thats fine to.  All I was attempting to do, was state that there is NO complete art, and that goes for Kenpo also!  Our versions of a complete art are different.  Mine is that a system should or at least make an attempt to address all ranges if they are to have a true understanding of them.  If the system is teaching knife disarms, which Kenpo does, is it so wrong to look at other systems to get an idea of what they do for disarms?  So it won't be a Kenpo disarm---big deal, who cares.  If it saves your life, isnt it worth knowing?  Sayoc Kali trains knife, like us in Kenpo train SD and kata.  If you are willing to train 20 yrs in Kenpo and then another 20 in learning grappling or another 20 in Kali, that is great, and I wish you the best.  I don't know how long you've been training.  I've been in the arts for 17 yrs.  I'm at the point in my training, where I'm not getting any younger, and I wish to train in some other arts, in which I feel that I can get the training that I'm looking for!  Are these other ideas in Kenpo?  Yes, I'm sure they are.  However, I wish to train in other styles to supplement my Kenpo.  

Once again, PLEASE let me say, that all my intentions were, was to show the benefits of cross training.  If it is something you wish not to do, great, if you do, thats great too!

Mike


----------



## rmcrobertson

Well, that's how progress goes, I guess.

I don't agree, for reasons already stated.

Thanks.


----------



## MJS

Robert- I seem to be a bit confused by your post.  Please enlighten me as to what YOU think the Kenpo student should take in regards to Kenpo in the 21st Century?  You seem to be on a one way path, not interested in learning anything else, and very confident in your Kenpo.  That is good.  But not everybody has your thinking.  Please share with us what you think we should be doing?  You seem to think that Kenpo addresses all situations.  Please tell us about your training and what you do to prepare, and I am talking realistic training,  for these real situations.

I don't want to sound like I'm challenging you or your decisions. If it seems that way, please forgive me!  All I'm saying is, is that change is not a bad thing.

Mike


----------



## rmcrobertson

I already have. Several times. And so has Clyde, and others. Repeatedly. And the repeated response is that, "everybody's standing still," or "well, what if they," or, "but there's no ground escape there," or, "kenpo needs more realism," or, "there isn't any groundfighting in kenpo," or to simply overlook.

I am losing interest in discussing anything after the reiteration of the claim that "you seem to be on a one-way path, not interested in anything else." Especially because..well, the hell with it.

Sure. If it's all that simple, fine.

We simply see things differently. I suppose I've seemed as rude to you, so my apologies.


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I already have. Several times. And so has Clyde, and others. Repeatedly. And the repeated response is that, "everybody's standing still," or "well, what if they," or, "but there's no ground escape there," or, "kenpo needs more realism," or, "there isn't any groundfighting in kenpo," or to simply overlook.
> 
> I am losing interest in discussing anything after the reiteration of the claim that "you seem to be on a one-way path, not interested in anything else." Especially because..well, the hell with it.
> 
> Sure. If it's all that simple, fine.
> 
> We simply see things differently. I suppose I've seemed as rude to you, so my apologies. *



Robert--I respect EVERYBODY and the knowledge that they have, reagrdless of what the rank.  There is always someone better out there.  This forum is filled with die hard Kenpoists.  I think that the difference is that you and I train differently.  You choose to saty just with the Kenpo and I choose to go out and train other arts.  Thats fine..Great, I have said this many many many times.  What rank are you in Kenpo?  How long have you been training?  I"m 3rd black and have trained for 17 yrs.  We come from 2 different schools of thought.  If you feel that you can get all you can out of Kenpo, good for you.  Just becuase I don't see things in the same light as you do, please don't hang me for it!  We are entitled to our opinions...you yours, and me mine.  Maybe one day, and that day might never come, you will see some of the holes I'm talking about.

MS


----------



## rmcrobertson

"The holes."

Sigh.


----------



## MJS

Yup, thats right Rob, the holes.  The holes that unfortunately, some people are too blind to see.

If you think you can get all you can out of Kenpo, good for you.  I have seen the holes.  I think you are under a misconception from other people, who themselves dont want to believe it either.  Like I said Rob, there is nothing wrong with admitting a short coming.  I do it.  I'll admit that I'm not the greatest puncher.  SO, what have I done to fix it....I've trained with peole who are better punchers, have boxing exp. etc.  You can't honestly tell me that a Kenpo practioner is a better puncher than a boxer!

MS


----------



## Doc

I always find it interesting when someone talks about "what missing" or the "holes" in kenpo. The suggestions here are pretty bold. I read it as "I have all the knowledge of all the kenpo therefore I can see what's missing, and you can't." Maybe we're not so "blind" as you think.

What offends people is the arrogance of one persons own Kenpo training with an instructor projected to include everyones kenpo experience as no better than theirs.  I respect the path you choose to take as long as you don't try to tell me whats wrong with what I do, because you have no knowledge of MY Kenpo. All of this, "you're blind, don't/won't can't see" from someone not yet thirty years old, who's an expert in everyones kenpo.  I don't presume to know you or your training, and am fine with whatever it is.

But when you voluntarily come to a discussion group and suggest you know ALL  of Kenpo has holes because you've had that experience, you must anticipate a tad of resistance of your projected expertise on those with different experiences, and in some cases a lot more experience and knowledge.

Cross training? In modern terms applied to the martial arts, that has become a "sport concept" that should not apply to the arts as I understand them. Over the years I've studied and managed to pick up a 9th Dan in Karate-do from the World Federation directed by the late Ed Hamile, a 9th Dan in Okazaki's Dan Zan Ryu Jiu-jitsu, along with blacks or equiv in Hap Ki Do, Shotokan, Slapping Hands Gung fu, Silat, etc. Yet I still embrace my "porous" kenpo.

Why? Because when you truly get to the higher art, you'll find they're all the same. The differences are philosophical in how you get there and for what purpose you study in the first place, which directs the physical parameters of focus and methodology.

Modern Grappling disciplines are "immediate arts." They are competition based so there is an urgency to become functional quickly just like commercial kenpo. And like commercial kenpo it carrys with it significant flaws in its focus that can only be addressed by a knowledgeable, competent, and physical teacher.

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is not "jiu-jitsu in the traditional sense of the term. It is an aberration of judo, which is it roots, and is only a very small part of true jiu-jitsu - just as commercial kenpo too is a modern day aberration and also is only a small part of true Chinese origin "Kenpo" Chaun fa, Chuan Shu, etc. This is not a secret, and I doubt anyone would go into a "strip mall" karate school believing they are going to get all the "ancient secrets." Or maybe I'm wrong and your expectations were different. Only you can answer that.

However, I congratulate you for finding the "holes" in your own experience, and I further commend you for seeking to improve and educate yourself. Just don't be so "close minded" to think you're the only one who might do that, or others experiences with their kenpo, commercial or not, is the same as yours.  Ask others what they do, and how they train. Solicit opinions, and discussions as to why perhaps they find everything they need in what they do. Speak specifically about techniques of interest to you, and how others find them successful. Perhaps these things are addressed in "THEIR" kenpo experience if not yours.

I only speak of MY experiences, and what I know and invite comparisons. I don't try to persuade people to change, or suggest another path because they're wrong. We simply dialog and come to a mutual conclusion which may or may not be in agreement. After 46 years I'm not likely to change my focus, but I am a perpetual student and listen to everyone objectively and continue to learn. 

Perhaps a better position would have been, "MY teacher, MY training, and MY experiences has some significant holes, therefore I'm seeking to close them by seeking out other arts."

With such a declaration, I don't think this string would have persisted as long as it has. On that everyone should agree. (or not):asian:


----------



## MJS

Doc-An excellent post, which I respect.  Just to clarify, when talking about the holes, yes I realize that we all train differently, and one inst might address something differently than another.  The holes I've found might not be in anyone elses Kenpo, maybe just mine.  I mentioned the grappling because, and unless someone else is doing at their school, I have not seen it taught anywhere.  If they are teaching it, then they have done the very thing that Im referring to.  I have also inquired about peoples training, how long they have studied, how they train, and I get NO response.  Why is that?  Why avoid the question?  By not answering the question, it leads me to believe that they might be agreeing with me, but just cant bring themselves to do it.  Once again, I don't think that you have to be 50 yrs old to have the knowledge of fighting.  The people that I have trained with outside of my Kenpo, I have known for many years, so I do feel that I have room to talk.  Are you saying that due to my age, nobody can learn from me?  If that is the case, then you are very wrong, because I have had many people at my school come up to me and say that they enjoy my teaching very much, and that they feel like they are getting more out of it, than from some of the other inst. at the school.. I would think that this wold count for something.  I mention cross training and get my head bitten off!  I'm not and never have said that anybody has to do it, but just to keep it as an option.  When I mention it, people say that all that I've talked about they already do.  If that is the case, then fine.  Like I said, every inst is different.  Maybe Larry Tatum does grappling in his school or whatever, maybe not, I dont know.  It does appear though, that many people in here are doing the same Kenpo, and therefore, that is why I mention the things that I do.

MS


----------



## twinkletoes

After much reading I will add something small here to help out OFK and his original intent in this post.  

I think that many people are misunderstanding 'crosstraining' as some of us are using it.  

--
Quote from Doc: 

Over the years I've studied and managed to pick up a 9th Dan in Karate-do from the World Federation directed by the late Ed Hamile, a 9th Dan in Okazaki's Dan Zan Ryu Jiu-jitsu, along with blacks or equiv in Hap Ki Do, Shotokan, Slapping Hands Gung fu, Silat, etc. Yet I still embrace my "porous" kenpo.

Why? Because when you truly get to the higher art, you'll find they're all the same. 
--
This is exactly a point that I think some of the "crosstrainers" are trying to make.  OFK has said many times that he is still a Kenpoka, no matter what else he studies.  

What he has noticed, when engaged in other training methodologies, is that other styles "flesh out" Kenpo principles.  Some have referenced angles of cancellation on the ground.  I think this is a good example of how the idea is constant, but it can be brought to light in a variety of exercises.  OFK points out that it is taught in ways other than kata practice or cooperative drills.  

--
OFK said on page 8:
We are in agreement on several fundamental points: 
1) Kenpo is a very comprehensive system. 
2) Kenpo principles are based on sound physics and are applicable in a variety of positions and situations. 
3) the ground is a bad place to go in a street fight or self-defense situation.
 --

The following seems to be a point that OFK and some others have tried to make, but it has not quite been picked up.  

It's not about whether or not Kenpo techniques work against X[groundfighting, BJJ, knives, clubs, etc.], or whether Kenpo's approach is effective against X, or whether or not Kenpo's principles are true against X.  What is being suggested is that in some people's experiences, Kenpo training does not include *training methods* that focus on skill development in X situations.  

Let me quote OFK on page 8 again: "*I feel that Kenpo would benefit by focusing more time on "alive" training drills similar to Kickboxing sparring and Judo/BJJ Randori. *I feel that Kata practice should be sacrificed to spend additiional time on "alive" training. *Some of you feel that the best EPAK teachers are already using the right mix of traning methods, drills, and sparring and that Kenpo practice is very "alive". *Those of you who feel this way are uncomfortable with the de-emphasis of any of the major parts of EPAK that a major change in training method would require." [bold marks are mine]

Now, some people think this is throwing out the baby [kenpo's principles, ideas, movements, and approaches] with the bathwater [traditional training methods].  I suspect there will not be agreement on this issue.  But can we at least recognize that this is the issue?  

Best,

~TT


----------



## Fastmover

Doc:
"Cross training? In modern terms applied to the martial arts, that has become a "sport concept" that should not apply to the arts as I understand them. Over the years I've studied and managed to pick up a 9th Dan in Karate-do from the World Federation directed by the late Ed Hamile, a 9th Dan in Okazaki's Dan Zan Ryu Jiu-jitsu, along with blacks or equiv in Hap Ki Do, Shotokan, Slapping Hands Gung fu, Silat, etc. Yet I still embrace my "porous" kenpo."

Hey,
The subject of cross training is very interesting and its influence 
in Kenpo seems to be a major part of this whole thread. You 
have some advanced rankings outside of Kenpo which indicates that you have trained extensively outside of Kenpo. You have:

10th Black in American Kenpo
9th Dan in Karate do
9th Dan in Okazaki's Dan Zan Ryu Jiu-Jitsu
Black Belts in Hap Ki Do
Black in Shotokan
Black in Slapping Hands Gung Fu
Black in Silat

Any one of these arts could take a life time to master yet you
have advanced black belts in many. This indicates to me that you
have worked very diligently at cross training because I am assuming these are not honorary in nature. Even though you
say that cross traning is a sport concept it seems to be something
that you yourself have embraced. Why would you spend
so much of your time working at these other arts if you have
discovered there are no holes within Kenpo and there is nothing
missing from what Mr. Parker gave you? Again maybe these are
honorary in nature but for the moment I am assuming that you
have trained and earned these titles through hard work? How
have these other systems influenced what you do in your Kenpo?

Thanks


----------



## MJS

Very interesting Fastmover!  I am eagerly awaiting the response!!!

Mike


----------



## Doc

> "Cross training? In modern terms applied to the martial arts, that has become a "sport concept" that should not apply to the arts as I understand them. Over the years I've studied and managed to pick up a 9th Dan in Karate-do from the World Federation directed by the late Ed Hamile, a 9th Dan in Okazaki's Dan Zan Ryu Jiu-jitsu, along with blacks or equiv in Hap Ki Do, Shotokan, Slapping Hands Gung fu, Silat, etc. Yet I still embrace my "porous" kenpo."



That may seem like a contradiction, but in fact it is not.



> The subject of cross training is very interesting and its influence
> in Kenpo seems to be a major part of this whole thread. You
> have some advanced rankings outside of Kenpo which indicates that you have trained extensively outside of Kenpo. You have:
> 
> 10th Black in American Kenpo
> 9th Dan in Karate do
> 9th Dan in Okazaki's Dan Zan Ryu Jiu-Jitsu
> Black Belts in Hap Ki Do
> Black in Shotokan
> Black in Slapping Hands Gung Fu etc
> Black in Silat



Cross training has had absolutely no influence on my Kenpo what so ever. In fact everything I have ever examined actually reinforced my Kenpo philosophies.



> Any one of these arts could take a life time to master yet you
> have advanced black belts in many. This indicates to me that you
> have worked very diligently at cross training because I am assuming these are not honorary in nature. Even though you say that cross training is a sport concept it seems to be something that you yourself have embraced.


No not really. In the fifties and sixties before commercialization, it was not unusual to sample what everyone was doing, and in fact it was encouraged by Ed Parker to do so. You could go from Shotokan, Okinawa te, San Soo, Kenpo, Hap ki do, jiu-jitsu, Aikido, Goju Ryu, Five Animal Gung Fu, Tai Chi, Hung Gar, Choi Li Fut, etc all within 10/12 miles. They all had open door nights where anyone could come in and train. The number of people involved in the arts was so small, there was little of the commercial (read money) bickering seen today.


> Why would you spend so much of your time working at these other arts if you have discovered there are no holes within Kenpo and there is nothing missing from what Mr. Parker gave you?


In the beginning it was curiosity, and I was already studying various Gung fu and karate methodologies when I met Parker so it wasnt unusual. After that Parker began to actually explain what I had previously learned in terms I could understand, the rest was not that difficult.



> Again maybe these are honorary in nature but for the moment I am assuming that you have trained and earned these titles through hard work? How have these other systems influenced what you do in your Kenpo?



They really havent influenced my Kenpo at all, except to validate my course of study. What my Kenpo training allowed me to do is decipher other arts and make them rather simplistic in comparison. Understanding true physical principles and concepts of execution allows me to look at any art and beak it down to what is useful. Much of other arts is ritual, cultural, or philosophical as opposed to practical. Ed Parkers strength is he understood others arts as well or better than they did.

Although I was not given any rank intended to be honorary, I personally consider ALL rank honorary. It is only knowledge and skill that matters. Rank stripes and belts are more about the business of the martial arts, and for me really have no place in the teaching of true martial Science. Of course most of my black belts disagree to some extent.

My point is at a certain level, all legitimate arts are the same. The only differences are philosophical and/or cultural. Youd be surprised at the similarity of Kenpo and Pentjak once you get beyond cultural filler. All manipulations arts ultimately, have a physical imperative of functionality. The rest are disciplines that concern themselves with cultural mandates of dictated sameness for consistency of the discipline itself, and function is a secondary consideration if at all. So it is by staying with one credible art that has given me the insight to make other arts simplistic in the long run. Had I jumped around attempting to fix one art with another, I would not have the great overall perspective given me by a truly credible and imaginative teacher.

"cross training" is a modern philosophy, that may have validity for an individual, but not for an overall art. Don't project what you do for yourself beyond your own personal experiences, because that's all they are - your experiences. The art itself doesn't need it or you to contaminate it. There are very few people qualified to "fix" any art, but everyone can adjust their own experiences.

Nuff said.


----------



## MJS

Doc- GREAT post.  Could you answer a few questions for me?

Cross training-  In regards to your cross training, did any of the other arts you studied, help to make you Kenpo better?  This is one of the main reasons I do it.  I am not saying it is something everybody has to do, but I did it for my own reasons, and I feel that it has improved my Kenpo.

You mentioned Ed Parker encouraging people to look at other arts.  Obviously, this is something that you yourself has done.  Why is it then, when I mentioned cross training, all I seemed to hear, was that there was no need to do it because everything is already addressed in Kenpo. IE- groundfighting, weapons, etc?

I could not agree with you more in regards to saying that the belt is just there for the "business", but the things that matter the most are the knowledge and the skill!  Like I have said, every art has something to offer, but in the long run, its the individual that makes the most out of it.

Mike


----------



## Doc

> Cross training-  In regards to your cross training, did any of the other arts you studied, help to make you Kenpo better?


No.


> I feel that it has improved my Kenpo.


Good.


> You mentioned Ed Parker encouraging people to look at other arts.  Obviously, this is something that you yourself has done.


In the fifties and early sixties when all modern non-tradional arts were growing.


> Why is it then, when I mentioned cross training, all I seemed to hear, was that there was no need to do it because everything is already addressed in Kenpo. IE- groundfighting, weapons, etc?


Obviously there are those who do not share your kenpo experience. You will not gain acceptance by insisting those who disagree "are blind" or "refuse to see" the "holes" you speak of.


> Its the individual that makes the most out of it.


Then reserve your comments for your personal experience and ask more questions of others. You seem more intent on talking about what you do, then soliciting answers from others about "how" they do what they do. I suspect everyone has figured out what your position is. Good luck (if you choose) with your inquiries.


----------



## Fastmover

Doc,

I hate to continue to bring this up but  you have very advanced degrees
in these other arts. You say that Kenpo has no holes  and yet you 
yourself seem to be searching elsewhere. Two ninth degree black belts in 
another martial art is not just a sample of another art, it is a huge investment in 
time and hard work. It sounds like you have trained extensively in these other arts 
and you have indeed cross trained throughout your martial arts studies. Why else 
would you spend so much time learning each systems idiosyncrasies unless you 
saw the value in doing so?  It is difficult to understand why since you see no value in these others systems, you would waste so much of your time doing something that 
has not had a huge impact on your journey. 

There seems to be a huge contradiction with what you say about cross training. Its one
Thing to dabble within these other arts back in the 50s and 60s but it is clear that 
you have made life time study in these other arts. As an example of this would you 
mind sharing when you received these other Black Belts in these  arts other then Kenpo? 

By the way I have seen many interviews up and until Mr. Parkers death were he 
Encouraged his students to test the waters and see what other arts were teaching.
If this is something you have done then Id say you were just doing as Mr. Parker
taught you. 

Why would it be wrong for anyone else to do exactly what you yourself have done? 
Cross-training.


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> [
> Obviously there are those who do not share your kenpo experience. You will not gain acceptance by insisting those who disagree "are blind" or "refuse to see" the "holes" you speak of.
> 
> Well, I have admitted that I do the cross training for my own reasons.  I realize that we all train differently, but I believe this forum is to discuss how the art of Kenpo is going to be in the 21st century.  If I mention that there is something not found in Kenpo and someone turns around and constatnly agrues that it is in there, isn't that person "blind" to what I'm saying?
> 
> Then reserve your comments for your personal experience and ask more questions of others. You seem more intent on talking about what you do, then soliciting answers from others about "how" they do what they do. I suspect everyone has figured out what your position is. Good luck (if you choose) with your inquiries. [/B]



Um, isn't this forum for us to all duscuss our knowledge and the expereinces that we have had in Kenpo?  Obviously, I've talked alot about mine, and I'm NOT saying that I have all the answeres fighured out, but I see nobody offereing any of their training exp.  Doc, look back a few posts.  All you will see is the posts that constatnly agree that things are in there.  You will see people say why bother to cross train, when, after many years of having a good understanding of the art, you will see it yourself.  I have asked people about their training, what they do at their school, and here I sit, still waiting for an answer.  Is this forum not to discuss our training?  Soliciting answers??  Like I said, all I'm trying to do is find out how other people train, seeing that I have so many saying that everything I need is right here in Kenpo.  I have not heard anybody talking about how long they have been training or what rank they are.  All you hear instead, is people bragging about their own inst.  Is this a bad thing? No, I'm proud of my inst. but I don't walk around and talk about them like they are God!

MJS


----------



## Michael Billings

> I have asked people about their training, what they do at their school, and here I sit, still waiting for an answer.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Um, isn't this forum for us to all duscuss our knowledge and the expereinces that we have had in Kenpo?  Obviously, I've talked alot about mine, and I'm NOT saying that I have all the answeres fighured out, but I see nobody offereing any of their training exp.  Doc, look back a few posts.  All you will see is the posts that constatnly agree that things are in there.  You will see people say why bother to cross train, when, after many years of having a good understanding of the art, you will see it yourself.  I have asked people about their training, what they do at their school, and here I sit, still waiting for an answer.  Is this forum not to discuss our training?  Soliciting answers??  Like I said, all I'm trying to do is find out how other people train, seeing that I have so many saying that everything I need is right here in Kenpo.  I have not heard anybody talking about how long they have been training or what rank they are.  All you hear instead, is people bragging about their own inst.  Is this a bad thing? No, I'm proud of my inst. but I don't walk around and talk about them like they are God!
> 
> MJS *



We've told you how we train, more than once I might add.     There are Kenpo people out there that have no idea what a figure 4 is, some just don't know what it's called but know how to apply it.    There are also those out there that know what it's called, know how to apply it for the attack for Entangled Wing, but have no clue how to apply it anywhere else on the body.    Where's the hole, them or their instructor?   I could also use this scenario when referring to naked chokes, or cross and triangle chokes, and every other attack for the techniques. 

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _



And how do you figure?  I sit and ask about someones training and the response I get is how good their instructor is.  I'm not asking about Larry Tatum.  I am asking about the individual!  Seeing that we all train under different inst. I'm just curious as to what training everybody else does.  Not looking to start anything, just have a discussion about training.  If someone has a certain way that they train or certain ideas that they have about doing something, I'd love to hear about them.  Maybe its something that other people on this forum can use and make work for them!!!  Any training idea is worth at least listening to.  If you dont agree with it, that is ok, but maybe other people do

MJS


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *We've told you how we train, more than once I might add.     There are Kenpo people out there that have no idea what a figure 4 is, some just don't know what it's called but know how to apply it.    There are also those out there that know what it's called, know how to apply it for the attack for Entangled Wing, but have no clue how to apply it anywhere else on the body.    Where's the hole, them or their instructor?   I could also use this scenario when referring to naked chokes, or cross and triangle chokes, and every other attack for the techniques.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> 
> Clyde *



Actually Clyde, the majority of what I've heard is "Why cross train, when everything you need is right here in Kenpo?"  "BJJ is not good on the street!"  "Why break from tradition?"  "You'll never get attacked with a knife!"  "My inst. is great!"

I think the title of this forum and the Kenpo on the ground forum are to look at where Kenpo is going to be headed.  As for the ground work.  Well, maybe I'm reading it wrong.  Are we talking about being able to use a Kenpo tech. effectively on the ground, or will Kenpo work on the ground if someone takes you there and is pounding away at you?  

I all honesty, I am a part of 2 other forums as well as this one.  We have good conversation about questions that some might have on how to do something, a problem that they might be having, a better way to do something.  

I am more than sure that all of the Inst. that have been mentioned are more than good, but I'm looking to talk about the way other peole do things.  Honestly Clyde, I have not been seeing much of this.  Instead, someone makes a post, and then someone else makes a negative comment about it.  I really wish that we can all put these things behind us, start over, and have some good conversation on the art which we study..KENPO!!  I have, unfortunately, not been able to train with the people that some of you train with.  IE- Larry Tatum for example.  I have met the man 1 time, thats it..1 time.  I was impressed with what I saw.  

Mike


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *And how do you figure?  I sit and ask about someones training and the response I get is how good their instructor is.  I'm not asking about Larry Tatum.  I am asking about the individual!  Seeing that we all train under different inst. I'm just curious as to what training everybody else does.  Not looking to start anything, just have a discussion about training.  If someone has a certain way that they train or certain ideas that they have about doing something, I'd love to hear about them.  Maybe its something that other people on this forum can use and make work for them!!!  Any training idea is worth at least listening to.  If you dont agree with it, that is ok, but maybe other people do
> 
> MJS *



Odd, you didn't answer the question.    Where's the hole, the student or the  instructor, it certainly isn't the system?    I did just give you a basic scenario of what's happening out there,  and I never mentioned my instructor, you did, and I find it odd that you never give your instructor's name and training other than 3rd Black to give you any credibility.       

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

All:  Thank you for your lively discussion!  I think there is much valuable discussion here.  Doc:  Thank you for offeirng your wisdom.  

We may not ever change each others' minds, but let's keep the dialogue going so that each of us can continue to learn about different perspectives and to plan our own Kenpo future.


----------



## MJS

Well OFK, I'm glad to hear you say that.  I'm glad that you think that some of the info here is usefull, cuz there sure alot of others that dont agree!!

MJS


----------



## 8253

Kenpo is based on evolving to meet different situations, time being one of them.  So therefore i believe it must change with time.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Dang, this looked like a fun thread to get punchy in.  Sorry I missed it at it's inception.


----------



## MJS

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Dang, this looked like a fun thread to get punchy in.  Sorry I missed it at it's inception.



Yeah, it was quite the interesting one.  Please feel free to get it started back up again though.  Nothing like stirring the pot a few times!  :argue: 

Mike


----------



## marshallbd

MJS said:
			
		

> We all seem to get into the argument about BJJ, and how its not good against mult. attackers.  First, how many of the people who teach mult. attacker defense, has actually had experience with the??  You will not be fighting  5 guys at one time, and have them attack you one at a time.  NO, you will have 2 at a time, or 2 holding you, while the 3rd punches you.  Its easy to teach this in a controlled fashion, but under the stress of the street, its very different.  Also, what happens if you get attacked from the rear, where you  can't see the attack coming, and you get knocked to the ground.  You should at least know some basics on the ground to defend yourself, and then work your way back to your feet.  Also, not every fight that you encounter will involve mult. people.


Ihave an aquintance who I knew in Colorado who is heavy into the BJJ scene and has never lost a match in the MMA Arena....he went out to try and help a friend of his who was getting the Crap beat out of him at a nightclub and he was doing fine with the one guy but when his buddy was knocked out and he then had 2 guys to deal with it was lights out and lights and siren time for him....He now trains in American Kenpo in Colorado Springs to round out his skills....just to clarify he has not given up on the BJJ stuff he is just getting himself skilled in a different style to round out his skills :asian:


----------



## MJS

marshallbd said:
			
		

> He now trains in American Kenpo in Colorado Springs to round out his skills....just to clarify he has not given up on the BJJ stuff he is just getting himself skilled in a different style to round out his skills :asian:



Being well rounded is something that, IMO, I feel that is very important.  And you'll even notice in all of the MMA fights, that there are no one style fighters anymore.  You have BJJ guys training in boxing and Muay Thai, and you have strikers training in BJJ or another grappling based art to round themselves out.  

Sounds like your friend is on a road to success!! :asian: 

Mike


----------



## Bill Lear

MJS,

Why cross train, when everything you need is right here in Kenpo?
BJJ is *not* good on the street!
Why break from tradition?
You'll never get attacked with a knife!
*My* instructor is great!

(I arrived at the party late and wanted to piss in the pool too. Do ya mind if I do it from the edge? I don't like swimming in my own pee.)  

Has fighting really changed all that much in the past couple of decades? Do we have eight legged mutants running around our city streets now, or has the average fighting prowess of Joe Mugger increased exponentially? Why do we need to change Ed Parker's Kenpo? It's always worked for me? I guess I'm wrong to assume that Kenpo is good enough. Maybe I'll take up studying Lathalo or some other *more effective* system. God knows... Mr. Parker (and all of his students) kept us in the dark, and didn't want us to know the secret methodology of combating mutants, right?

In the long run I think any system is what you make of it. If you make it effective for you, then it will be. If you just go through the motions without commiting yourself to what you're doing then you lost before you got there. My system of choice is Kenpo, and my effort is to make it work the way it was ment to work (Eight legged mutant or not). Just some thoughts.
 :asian:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

> Why cross train, when everything you need is right here in Kenpo?
> BJJ is not good on the street!
> Why break from tradition?
> You'll never get attacked with a knife!
> My instructor is great!
> QUOTE]
> 
> Billy, Billy, Billy...
> 
> 1)  Why cross train...well, we've been talking about this.  I agree, YOU shouldn't cross train.  I will continue to do so.
> 2)  BJJ not good on the street you say...well, that depends.  Certainly, pulling guard, not defending against strikes or kicks, that's bad.  Being able to imobilize, mount, or choke-out an opponent, that's good.
> 3)  Why not?
> 4)  Agree, grappling+knives=bloody mess.
> 5)  Yes, we know.


----------



## Bill Lear

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Why cross train, when everything you need is right here in Kenpo?
> BJJ is not good on the street!
> Why break from tradition?
> You'll never get attacked with a knife!
> My instructor is great!
> QUOTE]
> 
> Billy, Billy, Billy...
> 
> 1)  Why cross train...well, we've been talking about this.  I agree, YOU shouldn't cross train.  I will continue to do so.
> 2)  BJJ not good on the street you say...well, that depends.  Certainly, pulling guard, not defending against strikes or kicks, that's bad.  Being able to imobilize, mount, or choke-out an opponent, that's good.
> 3)  Why not?
> 4)  Agree, grappling+knives=bloody mess.
> 5)  Yes, we know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Old Fat Kenpo Dude!
> 
> Wazzup?
> 
> Funny thing is I choked someone out 9 months ago in a street fight after executing Mace of Aggression on him. Didn't need to study BJJ to do it though.
> 
> I don't think we should change EPAK. Not because I want to see it traditionalized, but because (in it's latest form) I think its still the most effective system out there. Just my expereince.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ceicei

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> I don't think we should change EPAK. Not because I want to see it traditionalized, but because (in it's latest form) I think its still the most effective system out there. Just my expereince.


When in the future, types of weapons might change, would you advocate updating EPAK or leaving it as is?

- Ceicei


----------



## Bill Lear

Ceicei, 
Lets look forward into the future...

In the year 2000 (ala Conan O'Brien):

Knives will still be knives...
Firearms will still be firearms...
Clubs will still be clubs...
but Mr. T will have mastered the mind meld and we'll all have to surely defend ourselves against that! :mst:


----------



## Ceicei

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Ceicei,
> 
> Lets look forward into the future...
> 
> In the year 2000 (ala Conan O'Brien):
> 
> Knives will still be knives...
> Firearms will still be firearms...
> Clubs will still be clubs...
> but Mr. T will have mastered the mind meld and we'll all have to surely defend ourselves against that! :mst:


Thanks for the laugh! :rofl: 

True, human nature will remain the same. 

There might be slight variations of weaponry though. Think how things were 400 years ago, 200, 100, 50, even 10. Warfare and how people used things for defense did change to be more efficient.  Now the mind meld, perhaps somebody, like you, can develop a kenpo mind block in defense against that. Maybe you would be so kind to instruct me once you learn how. :asian:

I don't know about you, but I am sure of some kenpoists out there who would adapt.  

- Ceicei


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

Cool.....  What EPAK technique was the choke-out from?  I suppose you hit a crossover stance while fighting the guy... huh?

The little I know about bjj has changed the way I look at my standup game.  I've learned to be more aware of the chance of takedowns whether they are accidental or intentional.  I have in turn increased my understanding and ability to effect my own takedowns and throws.  I have also learned a great deal about position, leverage, and control that either I didn't understand or hadn't been introduced to before.

I take issue with the knife comment made earlier, because EPAK knife techniques also equal bloody mess.  The knife is a very dangerous and effective weapon, hence its prevalence in our society. To suggest that Kenpo is any better at defending against a knife is somewhat obsurd, considering you have no idea what the Machado's or Gracie's may be teaching to deal with this.  I would also argue that any system which expects you to turn your back to an armed attacker while fighting is deeply flawed.



> I don't think we should change EPAK. Not because I want to see it traditionalized, but because (in it's latest form) I think its still the most effective system out there. Just my expereince.


I find your logic very interesting, it seems that you don't think we should change EPAK because "in it's latest form" it is just fine.  A statement like this makes me think that you may not be doing EPAK the way it was WRITTEN when Parker died.  the words "latest form" seem to indicate that you are doing something different than everyone else, which is great.  However, if this is the case it kinda nullifies your argument about changing EPAK, seeing as how you aren't really using mainstream EPAK yourself.

Not really complaining or anything. Hell, I'm an AKKI'er we do things way different but at least we admit it.  There's nothing wrong with change, just so long as you can still get the job done as effectively and efficiently as possible.


----------



## Bill Lear

Ceicei,

Glad you had a laugh!   

In all seriousness... I think things will remain relatively the same. That is, until they find a way to make the lightsaber a reality.

 :jedi1:


----------



## Bill Lear

Kenpo Yahoo,

The thing is... You're not practicing Ed Parker's American Kenpo, you're practicing Paul Mills American Kenpo. Mr. Mills has made several fundamental changes to the system. I wouldn't say that this is a bad thing either. Just different.

You see... when you change the fundamentals of a system, the system its-self ultimately changes enough to be identified as something else. I think that may be the case in your case, but I could be wrong. (Is it a duck or a pigeon? Sheesh, they're both birds... right? Small diffrences are differences none the less.)

As for the system I practice... The fundamentals are identical to the material outlined in Ed Parker's Infinite Insights series. Furthermore, the techniques, forms, and sets are the same as those presented in the Technique Manuals that were published by Mr. Parker in 1988. I might employ the equation formula when mixing it up sometimes, but it's still Ed Parker's System (just my style). (I know that I might have different spots on my feathers, but birds of a feather flock together, right? I mean all ducks don't look the same do they?)

:idunno:


----------



## marshallbd

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> I don't think we should change EPAK. Not because I want to see it traditionalized, but because (in it's latest form) I think its still the most effective system out there. Just my expereince.


Do you perform your art exactly the same way your instructor does?  It is my opinion that the art changes with each person, each adding thier own unique little twist to it, ultimately creating their own sub-system (Lear's American Kenpo?)....but that is the opinion of a novice....Thanks for reading..... :asian:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Hey Old Fat Kenpo Dude!
> 
> Wazzup?
> 
> Funny thing is I choked someone out 9 months ago in a street fight after executing Mace of Aggression on him. Didn't need to study BJJ to do it though.
> 
> I don't think we should change EPAK. Not because I want to see it traditionalized, but because (in it's latest form) I think its still the most effective system out there. Just my expereince.



Good for you Billy!  Seriously, good for you!  I have to admit that I once TKO'd a guy using Thundering Hammers (although I did modify it by leading in with a right lunge kick to his solar plexus).  

I do also agree (despite my ranting about grappling and MMA) that Kenpo is one of the most effective street self-defense systems out there.  The question of this thread is will it still be the most effective in the 21st century--say around 2020 or 2040 or 2080?


----------



## MJS

marshallbd said:
			
		

> Do you perform your art exactly the same way your instructor does?  It is my opinion that the art changes with each person, each adding thier own unique little twist to it, ultimately creating their own sub-system (Lear's American Kenpo?)....but that is the opinion of a novice....Thanks for reading..... :asian:



I would think that slight changes would occur.  I mean, look at it like this...there was only 1 Ed Parker.  Now, if you're not his height, weight, or as quick, then how could anyone possibly be like him??  Even when teaching the art to a woman, a man, and a child, there are going to be differences.  Just my opinion, for what its worth.

Mike


----------



## MJS

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> MJS,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why cross train, when everything you need is right here in Kenpo?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right!  There is alot in this art.  I still believe though that if you wanted a more in depth look at something, you just may have to look elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BJJ is *not* good on the street!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right again.  Especially when it comes to mult. attackers.  However, in the event that you fell to the ground, I would think that having some ground knowledge would be helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why break from tradition?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can only speak for myself on this one, but I'm always looking for ways to make myself better!  And, if that means looking outside the box, then I'm gonna do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You'll never get attacked with a knife!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And how do you know that????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *My* instructor is great!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And so are mine!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I arrived at the party late and wanted to piss in the pool too. Do ya mind if I do it from the edge? I don't like swimming in my own pee.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey Billy!  Welcome to the party!  By all means, stand on the edge...I dont like swimming in pee either!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has fighting really changed all that much in the past couple of decades? Do we have eight legged mutants running around our city streets now, or has the average fighting prowess of Joe Mugger increased exponentially? Why do we need to change Ed Parker's Kenpo? It's always worked for me? I guess I'm wrong to assume that Kenpo is good enough. Maybe I'll take up studying Lathalo or some other *more effective* system. God knows... Mr. Parker (and all of his students) kept us in the dark, and didn't want us to know the secret methodology of combating mutants, right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt Parker himself make changes from when he first learned Kenpo?  I believe that he did, so if thats the case, whats to say that there, if he was still alive, there would be more changes????  If something has worked for you, thats great!  Hats off to you Billy!  But just cuz something works for you, are you assuming that its gonna work for everybody??  Everybody is different.  What works for one, may not work for another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the long run I think any system is what you make of it. If you make it effective for you, then it will be. If you just go through the motions without commiting yourself to what you're doing then you lost before you got there. My system of choice is Kenpo, and my effort is to make it work the way it was ment to work (Eight legged mutant or not). Just some thoughts.
> :asian:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right!  It is what you make of it.  I really dont want to turn this into another 'my system is better than yours' debate, although that is where it seems to be going here.  I've had the chance to talk with Clyde a few times, and I have to say that he opened my eyes to alot of things.  Its amazing how you can have 2 people do the same art and yet there are so many differences.  Hmm...those words sound familiar dont they???  As I've also said before, we cant all be fortunate enough to train with Larry Tatum, so we have to train with who we have available to us at the time.  Did I get the quality Inst. that you do? Definately not.  Does that make my Kenpo any worse? Not at all.  If I can apply it, and make it work for me, that is all I care about.  If I find that I need to crosstrain in something, maybe I'm doing it cuz I happen to like that art.  So why then does it seem to bother sooooo many people????
> 
> Let me ask you a question Billy.  If you went to a new restaurant, with a huge variety of items on the menu, would you always want to eat the same thing, or maybe take a taste of something new?  I dont know about you, but I want to sample as much as I can.  I guess the same can be applied to the wide variety of arts that are out there!!!
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


----------



## marshallbd

OFK,

That number up top is growing!  I clicked it just to be goofy but I'm out of that brawl!  You guys would mop the florr with me! :asian:


----------



## Bill Lear

marshallbd said:
			
		

> Do you perform your art exactly the same way your instructor does?  It is my opinion that the art changes with each person, each adding thier own unique little twist to it, ultimately creating their own sub-system (Lear's American Kenpo?)....but that is the opinion of a novice....Thanks for reading..... :asian:



Marshallbd,

Your point is a good one, but it only highlights the difference between what a personal style is and what a system is. A personal style reflects the individuals ability to apply the equation formula to his art as well as differences in timing, targeting, accuracy, speed, power, etc... The system on the other hand would be the same becasue the basics, base techniques, forms, and sets would be the same. Hope I helped.


----------



## Bill Lear

MJS said:
			
		

> Let me ask you a question Billy.  If you went to a new restaurant, with a huge variety of items on the menu, would you always want to eat the same thing, or maybe take a taste of something new?  I dont know about you, but I want to sample as much as I can.  I guess the same can be applied to the wide variety of arts that are out there!!!
> 
> Mike



Your implying that you're eating at one restraunt. I think the analogy would be better if you were sitting at the Kenpo Dinner and eating from its menu, while sampling food from the juijitsu bar down the street at the same time... Just makes a little more sense to me. Don't get me wrong though... I like your thought process.

I originally posted this to get the boards attention: 



> "Why cross train, when everything you need is right here in Kenpo?
> BJJ is not good on the street!
> Why break from tradition?
> You'll never get attacked with a knife!
> My instructor is great!"



Now that I did, I'd like to put my real point of view up...

Everything you need is in Kenpo, but you're right your Kenpo and my Kenpo are different. I think it's good for people to check out other arts. I just don't think it's good for me to drink from a firehose when a shotglass of water is all I need. 

Everytime I check out another art it just reinforces what I do within the boundaries of Kenpo. Making what I already know work on things I haven't yet encountered before is the key to the art for me. It's just a simple and easier way for me to build from my own frame of reference.

Bjj is as good as you make it on the street.

Keeping a tradition for the sake of tradtition, and nothing more... is a waste of time.

I've been attacked with a knife. More than once. I have a couple scars on my hand to prove it. THANK GOD I'M STILL IN ONE PIECE!

I have quite a few good instructors, and they are all great.

MJS, Clyde is right... you seem like a pretty cool dude. It would be good to hook-up on the mat sometime.


----------



## MJS

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Your implying that you're eating at one restraunt. I think the analogy would be better if you were sitting at the Kenpo Dinner and eating from its menu, while sampling food from the juijitsu bar down the street at the same time... Just makes a little more sense to me. Don't get me wrong though... I like your thought process.



Our thoughts are the same on this one, we just said it a little different here!  



> Everything you need is in Kenpo, but you're right your Kenpo and my Kenpo are different. I think it's good for people to check out other arts. I just don't think it's good for me to drink from a firehose when a shotglass of water is all I need.



You're right!  Kenpo is definately a very interesting art, and thanks to Clyde, he did enlighten me to many things.  During one of our chats, we got on the subject of grappling and applying techs. from Kenpo while on the ground.  I mentioned to him that during one session, I found an application to Crossing Talon and Mace of Aggression, while being mounted.  



> Everytime I check out another art it just reinforces what I do within the boundaries of Kenpo. Making what I already know work on things I haven't yet encountered before is the key to the art for me. It's just a simple and easier way for me to build from my own frame of reference.



Another good point!  



> Bjj is as good as you make it on the street.



True.  Its not the end all-be all of arts.  Like everything, it has its time and place.



> I've been attacked with a knife. More than once. I have a couple scars on my hand to prove it. THANK GOD I'M STILL IN ONE PIECE!



I hear ya!!  At least the injuries were nothing more than a few scars.




> MJS, Clyde is right... you seem like a pretty cool dude. It would be good to hook-up on the mat sometime.



Thank you. :asian: Again, and I know I keep talking about it, but its the truth.  After talking to Clyde, and you can ask him yourself, I developed a new look at the art.  Believe me, if I could, I would head out to Cali. in a heartbeat.  Who knows, maybe one day, if I find myself looking for a vacation spot, I'll make a trip to Ca. and look you guys up.  

Mike


----------



## Bill Lear

Good discussion gentlemen! Now it's time to get this thread back on track and solicit votes for beating the crap outta Old Fat Kenpoka! Who's with me?

artyon:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

:wah:


----------



## RCastillo

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Good discussion gentlemen! Now it's time to get this thread back on track and solicit votes for beating the crap outta Old Fat Kenpoka! Who's with me?
> 
> artyon:




What's it pay? :uhyeah:


----------



## Bill Lear

RCastillo said:
			
		

> What's it pay? :uhyeah:



*FOR THE LAST TIME...

THAT DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH HE HAS IN HIS WALLET WHEN WE FIND HIM!!!*

%-}


----------



## RCastillo

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> *FOR THE LAST TIME...
> 
> THAT DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH HE HAS IN HIS WALLET WHEN WE FIND HIM!!!*
> 
> %-}



Quit yelling, and putting it in bold print before I travel to Master Tatums' studio, and seek you out! :uhyeah: 

Now, next question,  what's my percentage?


----------



## Bill Lear

RCastillo said:
			
		

> Quit yelling, and putting it in bold print before I travel to Master Tatums' studio, and seek you out! :uhyeah:



:bird: 




			
				RCastillo said:
			
		

> Now, next question,  what's my percentage?



:idunno:


*SEE YOU WHEN YOU GET HERE. THE WEATHERS GREAT!!!*


----------



## RCastillo

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> :bird:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :idunno:
> 
> 
> *SEE YOU WHEN YOU GET HERE. THE WEATHERS GREAT!!!*



Thanks for recognizing me as #1 :uhyeah:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

What!?!  Two-on-one, eh!  Well, I guess that means I won't be pulling guard on either of you. :idunno:


----------



## Touch Of Death

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> What!?!  Two-on-one, eh!  Well, I guess that means I won't be pulling guard on either of you. :idunno:


 At the rate they are going perhaps you will.


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## Bill Lear

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> At the rate they are going perhaps you will.



I know... I know... Ricardo and I are a couple of degenerates. What can I say?

 :moon:


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## Touch Of Death

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> I know... I know... Ricardo and I are a couple of degenerates. What can I say?
> 
> :moon:


You can start by SAYING what percentage Ricardo gets after you roll Allen. :uhyeah:


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## Bill Lear

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> You can start by SAYING what percentage Ricardo gets after you roll Allen. :uhyeah:



Sounds like you have an interest in the draw too. Who's side are you on?  :uhoh:


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## 8253

I believe Kenpo should be left alone.  The basic movements will never work any better or worse.  After all, all movements turn basic after practice.


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## TIGER DRAGON FIGHT

i believe it should evolve slowly to match society, tradition should always be kept and taught but to continue to grow with new concepts of attacks and movement.


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## MJS

TIGER DRAGON FIGHT said:
			
		

> i believe it should evolve slowly to match society, tradition should always be kept and taught but to continue to grow with new concepts of attacks and movement.



Very good post! I agree, unfortunately, there are some that seem to be stuck in a time warp, with the thinking that things should stay the same rather than move forward and change with the times, as you've said.  What amazes me more, is that Ed Parker himself, made changes to the art.  So, basically its ok for him to make the changes, but nobody else???

Mike


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## rmcrobertson

Basically, pretty much yeah.


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## MJS

Oh my..god forbid a change should be made.

Mike


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## rmcrobertson

Not what I wrote, there, duder. Just objecting to phony change, change for change's sake, ego-driven tinkering.


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## MJS

Well, I was just responding to what you said, which I believe was a reply to what I said.  Guess there was a slight mis-communication there Robert.

Mike


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## dmdfromhamilton

I voted for evolve gradually, carefully adding and refining techniques within the bounds of the Kenpo system. but i know people who would have voted or should Kenpoists band together, find Old Fat Kenpoka and pulverize him?..."Change? Blasphemey!" its sad people think that way when Ed Parker himself changed stuff around in the system


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## scfgabe

Every Martial Art inherently evolves over time because it is an art that is passed on through an instructor/student relationship.  Each instructor will make subtle (or sometimes drastic) changes as they teach based on their preferences, no matter how organized or stict the curriculum may seem.


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## Hand Sword

Yep! Evolution continues.


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## Doc

Has anyone considered the fact that Kenpo may have already evolved, and is contuing to do so, but maybe you haven't been exposed to it. Maybe?


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Doc said:
			
		

> Has anyone considered the fact that Kenpo may have already evolved, and is contuing to do so, but maybe you haven't been exposed to it. Maybe?


 
Blasphemy. LOL.


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## HKphooey

Doc said:
			
		

> Has anyone considered the fact that Kenpo may have already evolved, and is contuing to do so, but maybe you haven't been exposed to it. Maybe?


 
Yes Sir, I believe that process began the day GM Parker taught his first student.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

HKphooey said:
			
		

> Yes Sir, I believe that process began the day GM Parker taught his first student.


 
Is that a fact or an opinion  sorry couldn't resist.  And my cookies are better too.


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## HKphooey

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Is that a fact or an opinion  sorry couldn't resist. And my cookies are better too.


 
You da man!!!!!!  :asian:


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## lenatoi

Doc said:
			
		

> Has anyone considered the fact that Kenpo may have already evolved, and is contuing to do so, but maybe you haven't been exposed to it. Maybe?


Do you honestly think that they haven't been exposed to it? Or could it possibly be that they have, and they are too closed minded to accept the changes as being good.
 Aditionally, I think most of those saying they are open to change are *blind* to the changes they have seen. OR they don't *want* to see changes that were incorperated without their own personal contributions to thet specific change.


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## Doc

lenatoi said:
			
		

> Do you honestly think that they haven't been exposed to it? Or could it possibly be that they have, and they are too closed minded to accept the changes as being good.
> Aditionally, I think most of those saying they are open to change are *blind* to the changes they have seen. OR they don't *want* to see changes that were incorperated without their own personal contributions to thet specific change.


Uh oh, you woke her up. Hows hubby?


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## Flying Crane

lenatoi said:
			
		

> Do you honestly think that they haven't been exposed to it? Or could it possibly be that they have, and they are too closed minded to accept the changes as being good.
> Aditionally, I think most of those saying they are open to change are *blind* to the changes they have seen. OR they don't *want* to see changes that were incorperated without their own personal contributions to thet specific change.


 
I think it is obvious that innovations are being made by many people, in many different camps.  Probably most of us have not been exposed to it if we have not had a chance to meet with the innovators and explore what they are doing.  If you and I are each working on innovations independently, but we never get a chance to meet and work together, then neither of us will benefit from the works of the other.  But that doesn't mean the innovations we are working on won't be beneficial to ourselves.


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## lenatoi

I agree FC. I know that many changes have been made in many different schools of thaught. I I was trying to make the point that most people reject changes that others have made, because they weren't there for the process. I know that there are some few that would benefeit if they could (or would) get together and and exchange ideas. But you're right if they don't, neither benefits.


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## lenatoi

Doc, my hubby is doing O.K.   I'll shoot you an e-mail.


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## Josh Oakley

*deleted because it was idiotic*


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## youngbraveheart

I can imagine Kenpo continuing to evolve beyond the imagination of all the grandmasters' by creative disciples, who are around today and tomorrow.

_IMHO (from a naive novice) I'd keep training and practicing in my particular Kempo style in hopes of "mastering" (being perfect) all aspects of the style. (In my mind, perfection will be a lifelong journey.) The only part I can imagine changing or adding to (or evolving in the style I am forever committed to) would be in the area of techniques, which seem to change as time goes by with more exposure to techniques my instructor shows and more exposure to more advanced forms..._


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## celtic_crippler

> What direction do you think Kenpo should take in the 21st Century?


 
I can't speak for anyone other than me, but here's how I see it....



> 1) Should it be dramatically altered to incorporate new developments in technique and training developed outside of Kenpo in the last 10 years or so?


 
Depends on what you study....Per the _Encyclopedia of Kenpo_: 
*American Kenpo is an updated and all-inclusive version of Kenpo, based on logic and practicality, that has been designed to cope with the mode of fighting prevalent on our streets today.
*
To me, that pretty much sums it up. 



> 2) Should it evolve carefully adding and refining techniques within the current bounds of the style?


 
IMHO, it's the principles that are at the core of what a kenpoist does and therfore make the art, or science as some see it, boundless. The application of those principles are infinite and can be applied to any given scenario.... so...in essence the material is actually already there and doesn't need to be _added. _You just need to discover it, or have it pointed out to you. 



> 3) Should Kenpoists seek to preserve the art as it currently exists with little or no change out of respect for Mr. Parker and his teachings?


 
Mr. Parker wasn't much for "tradition" based on what I've read about him. Would it be an honor to him to "traditionalize" his art when he put so much effort into "nontraditionalizing" it? 



> 4) Should Kenpo people band together, find me and pulverize me?


 
No worries here....I'm a pacifist.


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## GBlues

My father taught me kenpo off and on over the course of my childhood. One of the things that sticks in my mind that he always told me, is that whatever happens don't go to the ground. I'm 5'3" and back then my senior year of highschool I weighed about a buck 18. Right about 16 or so was when the first UFC's started coming out, and my buddies were thrilled with the Gracies. Little guy, taking on these huge guys fighting them on the ground. Problem is some of those fights were very unrealistic for real world combat, in my opinion. Fights happen fast, without warning, bang! Your fighting for your life or a loved ones. You don't have 45 minutes to be messing with this guy you have to finish it and do it quickly! A fight starts going longer than 2 minutes and things start working against you. 

Now is this to say that you shouldn't learn at least some ground fighting? Well, you should to be honest. The fact of the matter is I knew alot of good wrestlers in highschool. For some reason it seems to me that grappling arts have a tendency to be more effective in the beginning, and you don't have to always practice it once you learn it. Once it's on the ground you kind of have time to do some things. Time to think, standing your reaction time has to be a little bit faster. Like blindingly.

And who is to say that you don't have to fight one of these highschool state champs one day? If he was good, he might try to take to the ground if your stomping his face in with strikes. Lot's of people have learned lots of things, and sometimes it's that fat drunk guy at the end of your local 'Famous Sam's' who's just looking for trouble that night, and he might be a damned good wrestler.

As far as taking stuff from this art and that art, well even in JKD it's recommended that you have a firm foundation in something else. Remember Danny Inosanto was a Kenpoist when he started. This is something some you mixed martial arts guys seem to be missing. You could know a thousand techniques, from a thousand different arts, but which one are you good at? This is an important question. My belief is really you need to learn one, all the way through, to really understand what you can do with it. 

Kenpo will change. I don't care if you are a traditionalist or not, you aren't going to do it exactly the way you were taught. Look at Frank Soto, and Ed Parker's son. They are changing the way they do kenpo. Kenpo for a long time was and in many ways still is a black or white art. It is a kill or be killed art. Now you watch Frank on You tube and see what he's doing and it's kind of getting more into the realm of Aikido style controlling techniques. So it's going to change, and there is alot of in-fighting with the various kenpo orginizations, personally I think that will ultimately kill the art if anything does. Plus you know you've got the Tracy's teaching there version, and guys Like Larry Tatum, it's natural and really doesn't need a discussion. At some point someone is going to add BJJ to Kenpo, just as it is with every art. Your going to add what you feel works. And it will be within the framework of the style that you prefer. So it's going to happen, and really the bottom line is what do you want your Kenpo you be, and have, and be about. Every student should take his art and make it his own. So that may mean that you add or take away, or whatever, and if you decide that you want to teach your kenpo then that's what you'll do. Then you'll have a whole new branch of kenpo for people to learn, and soon nobody will no what to expect from a kenpo practitioner. Hmmm....could be very interesting 200 years from now. Wish I'd be around to see it.


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