# Unbelievable



## SFC JeffJ (Apr 10, 2011)

Hey everybody,

Been a long time since I've posted, so first off, hi to all you familiar faces, and greeting to you I don't recognize.

While visiting an old acquaintances school, I think I heard one of the biggest pieces of ******** I've come across on a dojo floor.

The instructor (the guy I know) started showing a technique to use against someone grabbing both of your wrists. Maybe not a likely attack, but whatever. He then did some very complicated motions of his arms and body and uke ended up on the ground. The ****ed up part of this was the fact in order for the technique to work, uke had to keep a hold of his wrists throughout the entire thing. Just as I was about to point this out, one of his higher ranking students asked about it. The response of the instructor was absolutely priceless.

"Your opponent will be confused about this during a fight and hang on to you." :BSmeter:

I **** you not.

Needless to say, I don't think I'll be visiting again.
'Cept maybe to poach that student who had the sense to ask about it. %-}

Jeff


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## Carol (Apr 10, 2011)

No ****, there he is!!!  Welcome back sir :asian:


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## mook jong man (Apr 10, 2011)

In Wing Chun we have something called  "forward force ", that is developed by the practice of Chi Sau.

This forward force is always "on" , if in the middle of a counter arm grab technique , wrist , elbow break etc and the opponent decides to disengage the grab from either or both arms.

Then the arm that is released will automatically go back along the shortest path to the center line and strike the attacker.

This tends to take care of the "What if ?" scenarios like what happens if he lets go and starts punching.


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 10, 2011)

Carol said:


> No ****, there he is!!!  Welcome back sir :asian:



Sir?!?

WTF? I used to work for a living!

Good to see you Carol!


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 10, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> In Wing Chun we have something called  "forward force ", that is developed by the practice of Chi Sau.
> 
> This forward force is always "on" , if in the middle of a counter arm grab technique , wrist , elbow break etc and the opponent decides to disengage the grab from either or both arms.
> 
> ...



I'm familiar with the concept, and it's a good one. But the idea of a grappling technique that *requires* your opponent not to do the obvious thing and let go is not only ridiculous, but a massive disservice to students when you are claiming to teach a self defense oriented MA.

Jeff


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## Cryozombie (Apr 10, 2011)

SFC JeffJ said:


> I'm familiar with the concept, and it's a good one. But the idea of a grappling technique that *requires* your opponent not to do the obvious thing and let go is not only ridiculous, but a massive disservice to students when you are claiming to teach a self defense oriented MA.
> 
> Jeff


 
I get what you are saying, but understand that there are times this would apply.  I have been in situations durring Randori before where letting go SEEMED like it would be a detriment when in fact it probably would have saved my butt.  *shrug* I wasn't there, so I didn't see it... I'm just saying that could go either way IMO.  So, I feel teaching the "what if" on either end (he holds on, or he lets go) is important.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 10, 2011)

Yeah, I'm with Cryo here. There are in fact a huge range of techniques in the systems I have experience in where they do rely in the attacker keeping their grip (it should also be noted that there are other techniques for the occasion when they do let go). The reason is that, in a number of instances and for a range of attacks, they will continue to hold on.

If we look at something like weapon retention techniques, the aim is to control the use of the weapon (or ability to gain control of it), so releasing the grip is not a good idea. Alternately, simply by responding to someone gripping your wrists (as in the example above) will result in them resisting your attempts to escape... in which case they will simply grip harder. Then there are the occasions where a "panic grip" is involved, in which case the grip won't get released without a large amount of pressure or force. In fact, if the aim of the attack is to hold, then it is more likely that they will continue to hold rather than let go.

Thinking that holding on continually is not what you would do (from a common sense/logical point of view) kinda misses the point, as we are then dealing with automatic, and largely automonous physical reactions and responces, which removes the idea of conscious decision making itself.

That said, the reasons the instructor gave are, well, ridiculous. I'd suggest that they didn't really understand the reasons the technique is done themselves.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 10, 2011)

Welcome back!!!


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## shesulsa (Apr 10, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, I'm with Cryo here. There are in fact a huge range of techniques in the systems I have experience in where they do rely in the attacker keeping their grip (it should also be noted that there are other techniques for the occasion when they do let go). The reason is that, in a number of instances and for a range of attacks, they will continue to hold on.
> 
> If we look at something like weapon retention techniques, the aim is to control the use of the weapon (or ability to gain control of it), so releasing the grip is not a good idea. Alternately, simply by responding to someone gripping your wrists (as in the example above) will result in them resisting your attempts to escape... in which case they will simply grip harder. Then there are the occasions where a "panic grip" is involved, in which case the grip won't get released without a large amount of pressure or force. In fact, if the aim of the attack is to hold, then it is more likely that they will continue to hold rather than let go.
> 
> ...



What he said ... though I can see where the instructor might have given a simple answer just to get on with the lesson?  Could be he didn't know and was just sharing the technique as he learned it. :idunno:

And welcome back SFC JeffJ


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 10, 2011)

I've known this guy for years. We even used to train together under some of the same instructors.

Unfortunately for his students, he truly believes what he said. I know the org he is a part of and their philosophy of fighting, self-defense, and strategy. I'm sure some of you have heard of the CBBA/SKKI. 

My big problem is yes people are going to let go of you a lot of the times. For that, you need to train for flowing into another technique, not to have a person who you look up to as an authority on the subject tell you that they won't let go.

Hey Brian and Shesulsa!

Great to see you two!

Jeff


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## chinto (Apr 10, 2011)

ahh welcome back Sargent.... good to see you back


I would call you Sir, but then i would provably end up doing how many pushups???


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## terryl965 (Apr 10, 2011)

Jeff nice to see you back, hopefully you have been doing great....


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## Josh Oakley (Apr 11, 2011)

SFC JeffJ said:


> I've known this guy for years. We even used to train together under some of the same instructors.
> 
> Unfortunately for his students, he truly believes what he said. I know the org he is a part of and their philosophy of fighting, self-defense, and strategy. I'm sure some of you have heard of the CBBA/SKKI.
> 
> ...



Agree totally. Sadly, there are a lot of BS assumptions that are relied upon when training.  It's as ridiculous as "the common street thug is almost always going to throw a wide roundhouse or haymaker punch."


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## Josh Oakley (Apr 11, 2011)

Or the oft-quoted "all fights go to the ground"


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## Chris Parker (Apr 11, 2011)

Hey Jeff,



SFC JeffJ said:


> I've known this guy for years. We even used to train together under some of the same instructors.
> 
> Unfortunately for his students, he truly believes what he said. I know the org he is a part of and their philosophy of fighting, self-defense, and strategy. *I'm sure some of you have heard of the CBBA/SKKI. *


 
Uh, I'm not sure exactly how close you are, but to be completely frank, I think this is a big part of why the comment may have come from ignorance. 



SFC JeffJ said:


> My big problem is yes people are going to let go of you a lot of the times. For that, you need to train for flowing into another technique, not to have a person who you look up to as an authority on the subject tell you that they won't let go.


 
Agreed in terms of techniques for when someone lets go, however that is far from always the case, and it's entirely possible (if not highly probable) that the technique was a perfectly valid one (at least in construction). Again, there are many, many scenarios and reasons that someone simply will keep hold, whether it is "common sense" to let go or not. That said, without having seen the technique in question, I can't say definately that this is the case here.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2011)

SFC JeffJ said:


> Hey everybody,
> 
> Been a long time since I've posted, so first off, hi to all you familiar faces, and greeting to you I don't recognize.
> 
> ...


 
Well well well :ticked:&#8230;.look whose back&#8230;so&#8230;..WHERE&#8217;S MY PIE RECIPIE!!!!!!...:tantrum: HMMMM :mst:
:uhohh: Oh wait&#8230;you gave that to me already&#8230;never mind :uhyeah:

Hey Jeff, Welcome back. :asian:

It never ceases to amaze me when things like this happen. I have messed up more than a few people because my automatic response when grabbed, from my taiji training is to relax and they all say the same thing&#8230;&#8221;You can&#8217;t relax or it won&#8217;t work&#8221; (Translation&#8230;it won&#8217;t work).

The best was a guy trying to sell a Self-Defense class for woman to a friend of mine who was an LEO. First he asked me to grab his wrist, because he knew I did MA, and the inevitable &#8220;You can&#8217;t relax or it won&#8217;t work&#8221; response came out. Next he told my friend (the LEO) to grab his wrist. He did and then I heard no you have to use your right hand&#8230;. To which my friend said&#8230;&#8221;But I&#8217;m left handed&#8221; With a later follow up of&#8230; &#8220;Good thing none of the bad guys are left handed huh&#8221;


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## shesulsa (Apr 11, 2011)

Well ... 

I think one of the main reasons people grab another by the wrist or low forearm is to ... control their hands.  If someone is trying to keep your hands/arms still then their grip will tighten, arms stiffen.

It seems to me to have techniques against this possibility, along with techniques against the possibility of release and techniques against the possibility of re-grab is a smart way to train.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 11, 2011)

Add to that the fact that a natural reaction to someone trying to break out of your grip is to tighten it... so releasing is far from expected in all cases.


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## shesulsa (Apr 11, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Add to that the fact that a natural reaction to someone trying to break out of your grip is to tighten it... so releasing is far from expected in all cases.



I've really only ever known someone to let go during training (afraid of being hurt).


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## Chris Parker (Apr 11, 2011)

Then, honestly, they're not acting realistically.

One of the things I've been trying to instill in my guys is the intention of the attacker in our sequences. And if the intention is to hold onto someone (to restrain, to threaten, to hold and strike, to hold so someone else can strike, to hold to stop them hitting you, to hold to stop them either accessing their weapon or yours), and the respondant/defender moves against that grab (to break out of it, or just try to fight back), then the natural, instictive responce is to tighten the grip in order to stop the defender getting away. Basically, the natural responce is opposite to the action of the opponent (for example, if someone starts pushing you, it's natural to push back, and moving back or pulling is not a natural, but a trained responce), so that should be your first guide in looking at a realistic responce from an attacker.


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 11, 2011)

In my experience(which of course is different from your experiences)both on the mat and outside of the dojo, wrist grabs as an attack are not trying to control your hand, but to upset your balance. Wrestlers do this quite a bit. In those cases, they let go if countered and look for a different avenue of attack.

But to tell your students that your opponent(presumably the aggressor) will hang on out of confusion so don't worry about them letting go? Intellectually lazy and completely disconnected from reality.

Jeff


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## Chris Parker (Apr 11, 2011)

SFC JeffJ said:


> In my experience(which of course is different from your experiences)both on the mat and outside of the dojo, wrist grabs as an attack are not trying to control your hand, but to upset your balance. Wrestlers do this quite a bit. In those cases, they let go if countered and look for a different avenue of attack.


 
I think this is part of the issue here. Wrestlers are training in grip wars, where one of the ideas is to gain the optimal grip in order to effect your attack. Now, if we take that to a domestic situation, where a guy has grabbed his girlfriend's wrists, it's a very different situation. Grips, psychologically speaking, are attempts to control someone. And if they try to remove themselves from that control, it is applied harder (in many cases, not all).



SFC JeffJ said:


> But to tell your students that your opponent(presumably the aggressor) will hang on out of confusion so don't worry about them letting go? Intellectually lazy and completely disconnected from reality.
> 
> Jeff


 
This I agree with completely. And, as I said, I think there are reasons for that....


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## WCman1976 (Feb 3, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, I'm with Cryo here. There are in fact a huge range of techniques in the systems I have experience in where they do rely in the attacker keeping their grip (it should also be noted that there are other techniques for the occasion when they do let go). The reason is that, in a number of instances and for a range of attacks, they will continue to hold on.
> 
> If we look at something like weapon retention techniques, the aim is to control the use of the weapon (or ability to gain control of it), so releasing the grip is not a good idea. Alternately, simply by responding to someone gripping your wrists (as in the example above) will result in them resisting your attempts to escape... in which case they will simply grip harder. Then there are the occasions where a "panic grip" is involved, in which case the grip won't get released without a large amount of pressure or force. In fact, if the aim of the attack is to hold, then it is more likely that they will continue to hold rather than let go.
> 
> ...



"Panic grip." I like that. I was going to say something similar, actually. In my wing chun class, my Sifu was talking about situations he had been in where someone kept holding on while he pummeled them, when the common sense thing would have been for them to simply let go! He called it a "stupid trap." LOL


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## Gnarlie (Feb 3, 2012)

It used to puzzle me why some clubs focus so much on wrist grabs as a staple attack or pre attack.  I'm not saying it will never happen, sure there are rare times when circumstances would be such that a wrist grab would be likely.  I'm just saying that the amount of time and effort spent practicing against wrist grabs (especially those with no following attack) is disproportionate to the likelihood of their literal, exact occurrence in reality when faced with a random Jeff.*

It could be argued that wrist grabs are just a starting point from which to teach principles, that they are not meant to represent a real attack or pre-attack; that they could represent a captured striking arm, an attempted throw or arm lock, for example.  They illustrate the principles that I can use to escape or create a position of advantage if part of my body is captured by an opponent.  If that's the case, then training against wrist grabs could make sense, as it's often more efficient to drill the principle, rather than train a separate technique for every eventuality.  

But principle drilling is only efficient and effective if the student understands that that is what they are doing, and can adapt what they have learned to every eventuality.  This is unlikely because wrist grabs are not often presented as illustrating a set of principles.  They are all too often presented as an actual attack, or pre attack.

A standing double wrist grab is unlikely.  A double wrist pin against a wall or from a mounted position is more likely.  Both arms pinned by a single grip from the mounted position is still more likely.  The principles learned from practicing standing, ideal situation wrist grab releases and locks can be applied to free up an arm in these situations.

The answer to the question 'what if he lets go?' during any manipulation technique must surely be 'Fantastic, I've achieved my objective, my hands are free and I can use them to attack'.

*Random Jeff - Unknown person who appears on your wedding photos only after you get them developed.  Used to represent undesirable element, has perjorative connotations.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 3, 2012)

Just speaking from a Japanese arts perspective, grabs of all kinds are pretty standard, rather than striking, for a range of reasons, including cultural, and the forms of armour used in Japanese history. Grabs to wrists were primarily to prevent you from accessing your weapons. In a modern context, for men they're not as big an issue, but a female assault victim is much more likely to be grabbed, and the wrists, being put out as a defensive measure, can be a common target. It all just depends on the context, really.


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## WingChunIan (Feb 3, 2012)

one of the reasons I love the Wing Chun I do is its simplicity. If you get grabbed hit 'em (preferably somwhere soft and squidgy), if they don't let go, hit 'em again if they grab both wrists hit 'em with your feet / knees / shoulder or elbow. If they let go, guess what.......
Reality against a resisting opponent doesn't allow for complex fine motor skills so multi part moves are never going to work. Leaving that to one side though the instructor in question would have been far better saying, this is what you do if they don't let go but if they then you do x,y or z. As I say it helps massively if the answer to every question is the same.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 3, 2012)

Ha, we have a system that takes a similar approach... 

Basically, if someone grabs you and tries to throw you, hit 'em.
If they grab you and try to choke you, hit 'em.
If they try to stab you with a knife or short blade, hit 'em.
If they try to cut you with a sword, hit 'em.
If they try to hit you, hit 'em.
If they walk towards you, hit 'em.
If they walk away from you, hit 'em.
If they run screaming in terror, hit 'em.
If they cower in fear, hit 'em.
If they say something about your grandmother, hit 'em.
If they are your grandmother, hit 'em.

Any questions?


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## shesulsa (Feb 3, 2012)

"If you're grabbed, hit 'em."

This is not often possible when the victim is a woman and the attacker is a much larger male or when the strength is not balanced.

I've had someone strong hold my by my wrists and strong-armed me from moving my arms at all from that hold.  

AND I've had someone grab me by my lower forearm in an effort to exert control over me.

Not so unbelievable.

Try talking to some victims about how they've been attacked for a REAL picture of how it happens. It isn't all just two guys brawling. The spectrum of attack and power-over is large.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 3, 2012)

Yep, agreed, Georgia. I'm taking my seniors through their choice of traditional systems at the moment, and for my female senior, I recommended a system that deals almost exclusively with grabs, and looks at exactly those situations, mainly as that is the most likely way she would be assaulted, and I wanted to recommend something that would be the most applicable to her situation.

With regards the the "just hit 'em" system, the grabs are more to the body (throw preparation) in that one, so they don't deal with such grabs much.


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## mook jong man (Feb 3, 2012)

In our lineage of Wing Chun we usually use leverage to cut down through the weakest part of their grip which is the thumb at the same time as we apply a low heel kick to the shin and a punch or palm strike to the face.

But having said that you can also apply pivoting techniques to break the grip which uses the force of the whole body against their wrist joints , or just simply collapse your arm into an elbow strike to their sternum which also can strain or break their wrists.

One important point is to always have a slight forward force in your arms so that you can quickly strike through in the event your attacker lets go of your arms.


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## Grasshopper22 (Apr 11, 2012)

Hahaha, oh dear.


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## K-man (Apr 11, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> Hahaha, oh dear.


Meaning?


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## WingChunIan (Apr 12, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Well ...
> 
> I think one of the main reasons people grab another by the wrist or low forearm is to ... control their hands.


 agreed but normally for a reason, ie to hit you with the other hand, to prevent you accessing a weapon / phone / help, to pull you in a given direction, to restrain you whilst a partner in crime does one of the above or commits robbery or sexual assault. The grab itself is of no consequence unless it is round your throat or your testicles, it is the threat that needs to be dealt with.


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## WingChunIan (Apr 12, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> "If you're grabbed, hit 'em."
> 
> This is not often possible when the victim is a woman and the attacker is a much larger male or when the strength is not balanced.
> 
> ...


I deal with victims alot and most of the time the physical restraint of the grip / grab has minimal involvement. The more common phenomenon is the panic at being grabbed, often followed by strength based struggling against the grab leading to failure and further panic or simply paralysis. I teach many women, many with slight builds, some of whom have had occassion to use what I teach. When you were grabbed and couldn't move at all, were you pinned to the floor or fighting an octopus? Unless either was true your human opponent only hand two hands therefore the most they can imobilise is two limbs, not withstanding physical disabilities I am assuming that you have two arms, two legs and a head and that furthermore each arm has an elbow and a shoulder, each leg has a knee and your head contains a forehead and a mouth full of teeth. Striking the nearest vulnerable point with your closest weapon is almost never not an option. Being prepared psychologically to react with fury and being willing to strike the throat, eyes, groin, knees etc as hard and as often as you can or bite the nose or anything else that presents without hesitation takes training but its an easier response to drill in than complex techniques and when the innocent little victim becomes a screaming banshee, they're very hard to hold on to.


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## mook jong man (Apr 12, 2012)

It doesn't matter how strong they hold your wrists , let em.
They cannot stop you simply collapsing your arm and coming over the top of their arm with an elbow strike to their sternum.
There is too much leverage and pressure on their wrists for them to maintain their grip.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 12, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> It doesn't matter how strong they hold your wrists , let em.
> They cannot stop you simply collapsing your arm and coming over the top of their arm with an elbow strike to their sternum.
> There is too much leverage and pressure on their wrists for them to maintain their grip.



In Laymans Terms, Their own grab stops Them from being able to get away, and when Youve done some work, Theyll probably let go.


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## mook jong man (Apr 12, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> In Laymans Terms, Their own grab stops Them from being able to get away, and when Youve done some work, Theyll probably let go.


Well they either let go or they get their wrist broken.In a related technique you clamp both your hands over each of their hands to trap them.Then you pivot sharply from side to side and drop your elbows over their wrist joints and break both their wrists.


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## MJS (Apr 12, 2012)

SFC JeffJ said:


> Hey everybody,
> 
> Been a long time since I've posted, so first off, hi to all you familiar faces, and greeting to you I don't recognize.
> 
> ...



Welcome back!  Good to see you posting again! 

As for the story...I'm not surprised, as there is alot of BS being taught.  Fortunately, not everyone will fall for it, and actually question things.  Interestingly enough, there are alot of locks, both empty hand and with the stick, in Arnis.  Alot of the locks involving the use of the stick, are going on the assumption that the badguy will be maintaining his grip on the stick or your wrist.  So sure, for training purposes, they are great locks, but if you don't have a plan b, well......

It would've been great if he had asked, "Well, what if they let go?" and see what the inst. would have had for the plan b.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 12, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> Hahaha, oh dear.





K-man said:


> Meaning?



Young grasshopper here seems to read only the OP, or just the title sometimes, and makes a comment on that, regardless of how long ago it was, or where the conversation has gone from there. This appears to me to be more of the same, honestly.


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## shesulsa (Apr 12, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> agreed but normally for a reason, ie to hit you with the other hand, to prevent you accessing a weapon / phone / help, to pull you in a given direction, to restrain you whilst a partner in crime does one of the above or commits robbery or sexual assault. The grab itself is of no consequence unless it is round your throat or your testicles, it is the threat that needs to be dealt with.



For some, the grab itself is enough threat to address.



mook jong man said:


> It doesn't matter how strong they hold your wrists , let em.
> They cannot stop you simply collapsing your arm and coming over the top of their arm with an elbow strike to their sternum.
> There is too much leverage and pressure on their wrists for them to maintain their grip.



Again, not taking into account the shorter reach of a slighter victim.



mook jong man said:


> Well they either let go or they get their wrist broken.In a related technique you clamp both your hands over each of their hands to trap them.Then you pivot sharply from side to side and drop your elbows over their wrist joints and break both their wrists.



Ditto above.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 12, 2012)

SFC JeffJ said:


> ...
> 
> But to tell your students that your opponent(presumably the aggressor) will hang on out of confusion so don't worry about them letting go? Intellectually lazy and completely disconnected from reality.
> 
> Jeff



Yeah, that sounds a little weak.  In the Hapkido I studied we had a lot of wrist grab defenses.  Either hand, both hands, front and back.  In the orient, at least Korea and Vietnam, it is a little more common to grab people that way, and certainly it was not uncommon to try to immobilize one of both hands to keep them from weapons in days gone by.

As to letting go, we usually made slight feints to make them think we were going to move another way and make them tighten their grip and move to resist us.  That made it easier to move the way we wanted, in fact, they were ususally helping us move the way we wanted, and hanging on more.  

They may indeed let go sometimes, but usually the adrenaline is strong enough to cause them to try to hang on long enough to make the counter-attack.  And the counter attack is supposed to be quick, not giving them time to let go anyway, as well as my grabs will not let them get too far from where I want them to be.  That is often lost at demostration speeds.



mook jong man said:


> Well they either let go or they get their wrist broken.In a related technique you clamp both your hands over each of their hands to trap them.Then you pivot sharply from side to side and drop your elbows over their wrist joints and break both their wrists.



That sounds interesting.  But somehow it isn't connecting in my mind.  Can you describe it a little further please?


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## mook jong man (Apr 12, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> For some, the grab itself is enough threat to address.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The reach of the victim has nothing to do with it .
It has everything to do with driving your entire bodyweight forward and attacking the weak point of his arms , his wrist joints.

He is only holding your wrists at one point in space , he has not immobilised your whole arm , you can still rotate your elbow up or down , or contract the angle of your arm.

Once you get your elbow over the top of his wrist you start folding it down which creates pressure on his wrist joint , he lets go , then you continue driving forward with your stance and ram the point of your elbow into his sternum.

It's a bit hard to describe unless you understand how the Wing Chun stance is used to transmit body mass through the arms , but from the attackers perspective he would feel as if the Wing Chun practitioners entire bodyweight is being driven forward and focused into wrist joint and ultimately to the centreline.

Basically the angle of the attackers arm is being collapsed into a weak position via pressure on his wrists from the Wing Chun persons stance , we do not oppose his force we simply rotate our arm around it .
Once the grip is released , you continue forward to ram his sternum with your elbow backed up by your entire bodyweight moving forward in your stance .


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## mook jong man (Apr 12, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Yeah, that sounds a little weak.  In the Hapkido I studied we had a lot of wrist grab defenses.  Either hand, both hands, front and back.  In the orient, at least Korea and Vietnam, it is a little more common to grab people that way, and certainly it was not uncommon to try to immobilize one of both hands to keep them from weapons in days gone by.
> 
> As to letting go, we usually made slight feints to make them think we were going to move another way and make them tighten their grip and move to resist us.  That made it easier to move the way we wanted, in fact, they were ususally helping us move the way we wanted, and hanging on more.
> 
> ...



Sorry I should have said one hand clamps over their hand and your other hand clamps over their other arms wrist.
This accomplishes three things , it traps their hands and stops them hitting you , it stops them from getting away and lastly it creates a firm base for you to apply pressure to their wrist joints.

Just to be clear I'm talking a a double arm grab here , from underneath with the attackers thumbs facing up
So one of your hands go to your other arm to clamp your hand over his hand, then your other free hand clamps over his other wrist.
Then it is just a matter of pivoting and bringing your elbow over and folding it  down on his wrist joint like a chicken wing , if you want to be a real bastard you can pivot back the other direction and break his other wrist too.

This clip from my old school shows the technique at about 0:25.

[video=youtube_share;I3JyLaYHrxA]http://youtu.be/I3JyLaYHrxA[/video]


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## K-man (Apr 12, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Young grasshopper here seems to read only the OP, or just the title sometimes, and makes a comment on that, regardless of how long ago it was, or where the conversation has gone from there. This appears to me to be more of the same, honestly.


Don't they normally come in threes?    :s61:


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 13, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> Sorry I should have said one hand clamps over their hand and your other hand clamps over their other arms wrist.
> This accomplishes three things , it traps their hands and stops them hitting you , it stops them from getting away and lastly it creates a firm base for you to apply pressure to their wrist joints.
> 
> Just to be clear I'm talking a a double arm grab here , from underneath with the attackers thumbs facing up
> ...



Thanks.  That is interesting.  I will have to try that.


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