# Two forms



## IcemanSK (Mar 17, 2006)

There are 2 forms in the cirriculum of the TKD organization I belong to that are from the earilest days of TKD in Korea (Late 50's or early 60's). They are referred to as kata (rather than poomsae). The are Ba Sai & Yum Bee. Are these Shotokan forms? Or are they Tang Soo Do? Or other? 

I thought I'd ask here first before I went to my instructor.

Thanks


----------



## Martial Tucker (Mar 17, 2006)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> There are 2 forms in the cirriculum of the TKD organization I belong to that are from the earilest days of TKD in Korea (Late 50's or early 60's). They are referred to as kata (rather than poomsae). The are Ba Sai & Yum Bee. Are these Shotokan forms? Or are they Tang Soo Do? Or other?
> 
> I thought I'd ask here first before I went to my instructor.
> 
> Thanks


Shotokan has two kata called Bassai Dai, and Bassai Sho,
that I am aware of. I'm pretty sure Bassai Dai is also used in Tang Soo Do, but I'm not 100% certain. Not sure if Bassai Sho is used in Tang Soo Do. If/when Upnorthkyosa reads this, you'll get a better answer.

Yum Bee, I've never heard of. Interesting....


----------



## Makalakumu (Mar 18, 2006)

I'm not sure what Yum Be is without seeing it.  Sometimes TKD renames the classical forms.  Bassai on the other hand is an Okinawan form that was transferred to Japan and then was transferred to Korea.  This form is very complex and very deadly.  There are so many good applications that ,in some arts, it is the backbone.

Tang Soo Do practices Bassai Dai and Sho...but the truth is that both of the Bassai hyung are ubiquitous throughout the arts.  In fact, I read that they both are the most ubiquitous.


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 18, 2006)

Upnorth is correct Bassia is a great Kata and my son wins so many competition with it for the complexity of said form. It is from Okinawa and transfererred from Japan to Korea and Yum Be I dod not know do you have a video or the outline of said form.
Terry


----------



## Miles (Mar 18, 2006)

Bassai is indeed a cool form.  Yun Bee is "Empi" in Japanese Shotokan.

Miles


----------



## rmclain (Mar 18, 2006)

Miles said:
			
		

> Bassai is indeed a cool form. Yun Bee is "Empi" in Japanese Shotokan.
> 
> Miles


 
Just to add to this, Yun Bee or Empi is also known as "Wan Shu."  It is originally an Okinawan Tomari-te form.  The name means, "Flying Swallow."

R. McLain


----------



## IcemanSK (Mar 18, 2006)

Thank you all. I've only seen the forms done a few times. They do look really interesting. 

I appreciate the fact I can come on here & get detailed intelligent answers that are helpful. 

I spent a great deal of time in my MA career either being lied to or being lead to believe that answers like this one are things "noone knows."

Thank you again.:asian:


----------



## IcemanSK (Mar 18, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Upnorth is correct Bassia is a great Kata and my son wins so many competition with it for the complexity of said form. It is from Okinawa and transfererred from Japan to Korea and Yum Be I dod not know do you have a video or the outline of said form.
> Terry


 
I do have a dvd of both forms. They are really neat. I just need to wait until I test for 4th Dan (Many moons from now!) to work on them. I like to study ahead.


----------



## Martial Tucker (Mar 18, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what Yum Be is without seeing it.  Sometimes TKD renames the classical forms.  Bassai on the other hand is an Okinawan form that was transferred to Japan and then was transferred to Korea.  This form is very complex and very deadly.  There are so many good applications that ,in some arts, it is the backbone.
> 
> Tang Soo Do practices Bassai Dai and Sho...but the truth is that both of the Bassai hyung are ubiquitous throughout the arts.  In fact, I read that they both are the most ubiquitous.


I would have to agree, and if you look at the movements of Bassai Dai, you will see many things that ultimately ended up in several of the TKD Palgue forms, in particular,  Sa Jang and Chil Jang


----------



## Miles (Mar 19, 2006)

rmclain said:
			
		

> Just to add to this, Yun Bee or Empi is also known as "Wan Shu." It is originally an Okinawan Tomari-te form. The name means, "Flying Swallow."



That's a good point.  It's also curiously absent from the Tang Soo Do curricula of which I am familiar.  I say "curious" because many people look at Tang Soo Do and see the Shotokan influence.

Miles


----------



## IcemanSK (Mar 19, 2006)

Bassai has a repeated lunge punch (at least twice). And Yum Bee begins w/ a leaping backfist forward. Are these the same forms that we've been discussing?


----------



## rmclain (Mar 19, 2006)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> And Yum Bee begins w/ a leaping backfist forward. Are these the same forms that we've been discussing?


 
That's not the Yun Bee I know.  Bassai Tae starts with a skipping/leaping forward backfist.  Otherwise, I don't know the form "Yun Bee" you've mentioned.

R. McLain


----------



## IcemanSK (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm doing some checking on it w/ a my Okinawan Stylist friend. I'll letcha know what I find out.


----------



## Martial Tucker (Mar 20, 2006)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> Bassai has a repeated lunge punch (at least twice). And Yum Bee begins w/ a leaping backfist forward. Are these the same forms that we've been discussing?



And, if Yum Bee is supposed to be the same thing as Empi, there is no leaping backfist in Empi, either.


----------



## Last Fearner (Apr 29, 2006)

*Iceman,*

*Although I have known the WTF Black Belt forms for a number of years, my recent joining with the U.S. Chung Do Kwan under Sr. Grandmaster Sell (back in 2000), has led me to be required to learn the six Black Belt forms they teach side-by-side with the WTF forms (Dhalee hyung 1st form, Dhalee hyung 2nd form, Ba sai, Yumbee, Dhalee hyung 3rd form, and Dhalee hyung 4th form).*

*Grandmaster Al Smith (my teacher) taught all six of these forms to myself and a group of Black Belts about 3 weeks ago, and I have spent the past 3 weeks memorizing them. Now, I'm trying to get them perfected for the National Conference next week!*

*Anyhow, I just noticed, in the back of General Choi's Taekwon-do book (published in 1965) he has a section of Karate forms after his "Ch'ang Hon" forms. He says that they are of the "Sho-rin and Sho-Rei schools."*

*The following is an excerpt from Generl Choi's book:*

"These two schools are Japanese and Okinawa in origin. However, their history and derivation are not definitely known.
The Sho-Rin School is characterized by light and speedy movements and is suitable for a light person. The Hei-An, Bat-Sai, Kouh-Shang-Kouh, En-Bi and Ro-Hai are the typical patterns of this school.
The Sho-Rei School, on the other hand, requires slow and forceful movements for the purpose of muscle development, and is favoured by a student of heavier frame. The Tet-Ki, Han-Getsu and Ji-On are the representative patterns of this school."

*[following are the description of the forms that General Choi gives]*

"HEI-AN: means safety and peacefulness.
This name is obtained from the fact that anyone who has
mastered this type is able to protect himself or herself
easily in any unforseen situation.

BAT-SAI: means to break through the fortress.
By alertness and skilful release of hand, in case of being
grabbed, one can put the opponent in an untenable
position

EN-BI: means flying swallow.
This pattern is performed with swift ascending and
descending movements similar to the flying swallow

RO-HAI: signifies a crane standing on a rock.
Some of the movements of this pattern are performed
with one leg stance which symbolizes a crane standing on
a rock.

KOUH-SHANG-KOUH: is named after a noted Chinese military officer, Mr. Kouh-Shang-Kouh who once visited Japan.

TET-KI: means iron horse.
Most of the movements throughout the patterns are
performed with a riding stance which is similar to horse
riding.

JIT-TE means ten hands.
Anyone who has mastered this pattern may have no
problem against the attack from ten persons.

HAN-GETSU: means half-moon.
Many of the movements of this pattern are carried out in
the form of an arc which symbolizes a half-moon.

JI-ON: the derivation of the name is unknown."

*The above is a quote from General Choi's book. As I read through the "Bat-Sai" pattern, I noticed it was almost identical to the "Ba Sai" that is used by the U.S. Chung Do Kwan. There are some major changes, and I don't yet know if it was intentional, or a faded memory of the form. Perhaps I can find out next week. Anyhow, they are certainly of the same origin.  "Bat-Sai" and "Ba sai" begin the same way, but the leaping backfist looks altered to an inner forearm block with the fingertip assist.  Also, "Yumbee" is definately from "En-Bi" (or Empi).  It is not a leaping backfist, but there are several punches followed by a leap to an x-stance with a low punch.  The U.S. Chung Do Kwan version of "Yumbee" executes the high punch while leaping in the air, and landing with the low punch in the x-stance.  There are other differences, but it is basically the same form.*

*I'll tell you more later as I find it out.*

*CM D. J. Eisenhart*


----------



## IcemanSK (Apr 29, 2006)

Thank you, sir.:asian: I plan to attend the session at the Conference that goes over Dalee Hyungs & Yumbi & Bassai (more for the 3 Dalee Hyungs) I plan to test for my 3rd Dan in summer '07: so I've got a lot to work on. 

BTW: I've spoken to other non-USCDKA TKD folks who do Bassai as well. One 16 year old kid told me matter-of-factly, "It's part of traditional Tae Kwon Do." I had to laugh.

I look forward to meeting you, sir.:asian:


----------



## Last Fearner (Apr 29, 2006)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> "It's part of traditional Tae Kwon Do." I had to laugh.
> 
> I look forward to meeting you, sir.:asian:


 
That is funny! :lol: 

I look forward to meeting you too! I'm glad to hear that you are going.

Just don't tell anyone here at MT what I'm really like! :ultracool  lol

See you there!
CM D.J. Eisenhart


----------



## IcemanSK (Apr 29, 2006)

Last Fearner said:
			
		

> Just don't tell anyone here at MT what I'm really like! :ultracool  lol


 
I won't if you won't, sir.:ultracool


----------



## Last Fearner (Apr 29, 2006)

You mean that's not your picture in your Avatar?? Oh no, I thought I'd be able to spot you really easy at the conference!

How am I going to recognize you now? :lol:


----------



## IcemanSK (Apr 30, 2006)

Last Fearner said:
			
		

> You mean that's not your picture in your Avatar?? Oh no, I thought I'd be able to spot you really easy at the conference!
> 
> How am I going to recognize you now? :lol:


 
I'll be very easy to spot. I'll be the only one there with 6 braids on their left arm with only 2 stripes on the belt.:boing1:


----------



## IcemanSK (Nov 17, 2007)

*Bump*

In the 1 1/2 years since I wrote this thread, I've realized a few things. I've since run into many TSD & a few Shotokan folks who do Bassai as I have learned it. I've yet to run into anyone outside the USCDKA who does Yumbee.

I'm facinated by Last Fearner's words that the old ITF Encyclopedia has both forms in it. I'd be curious if anyone has done them.


----------



## crushing (Nov 17, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> *Bump*
> 
> In the 1 1/2 years since I wrote this thread, I've realized a few things. I've since run into many TSD & a few Shotokan folks who do Bassai as I have learned it. I've yet to run into anyone outside the USCDKA who does Yumbee.
> 
> I'm facinated by Last Fearner's words that the old ITF Encyclopedia has both forms in it. I'd be curious if anyone has done them.


 
Yum-be (Empi) is one of the required forms when testing for 2nd Dan in my TKD organization.  Maybe the fact that each of our organizations does it is because of the connection between our GMs in CDKTDK?  I haven't been introduced to Yum-be yet, that won't happen until I've become much better at Keumgang, which I just started last week.


----------



## Laurentkd (Nov 17, 2007)

Which Bassai do you do, Bassai Dai or Bassai Sho? Sorry if you made this clear in an earlier post, I can't find it.
And really this question could go to anyone.  Is one more popular than the other  for TKD schools?


----------



## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2007)

Laurentkd said:


> Which Bassai do you do, Bassai Dai or Bassai Sho? Sorry if you made this clear in an earlier post, I can't find it.
> And really this question could go to anyone. Is one more popular than the other for TKD schools?


 

For me it is Bassai Dai


----------



## e ship yuk (Nov 18, 2007)

I know Yun-be, though we do it slightly different than most people.  We originally descended from a Chung Do Kwan lineage, through Jhoon Rhee, doing the older forms - Pyong-an, Pal-sek (Bassai), Chul-gi (Naihanchi), etc.  Our group,  back a couple of generations, fell in with a group of Japanese tournament practitioners, so we tended to look very Japanese in our movements, though we still called it tae kwon do.  Recently, my instructor chose to move more towards the Korean end of the spectrum, and we now are essentially tang soo do.  Though we still look a little Japanese.  

Bassai - was still a brown belt at the time... man, does it show.  
Yun-be - practicing Yun-be with my instructor.  Very slow performance, basically walking through every step.


----------



## rmclain (Nov 19, 2007)

In the Chayon-Ryu system, we learn and practice both Yun-bee and Bassai Tae (and Bassai So).

R. McLain


----------



## IcemanSK (Nov 20, 2007)

In answer to Master Lauren's question, I only know it as Bassai. I'm not sure which one it is. If it helps, it's the one that starts with one hand closed the other covering it...then you lean forward & throw a supported backfist in a cross-legged stance.

I've grown to appreciate Bassai a great deal. It's a fun form.


----------



## IcemanSK (Nov 25, 2007)

I just bought Hillson's "Taekwondo Classic Forms" & "Korean Karate" by Son, Duk Song. Hillson's book has the Japanese, Korean & Chinese names for the same forms. I now know that the form that we do is Bassai Dai (Pal Sek in Korean). 

In GM Son's book, he says that Pal Sek is to be done in 45 seconds. I had not heard there was a timeframe in which to do it. Has anyone kept that tradition?

My GM says that there is a 35 second timeframe in which to do Yum Bi (Yun Bi). Does anyone else have that in their tradition?


----------



## Master-Theophylus (Jul 15, 2017)

Yun bi is an oooooooooold school form that's been pretty much forgotten. Us who still hold strong to Chung do Kwan roots still know it. In shotokon they call it enpi (or empi) and it's slightly different. Either way, the 35 second rule is a US Chung do Kwan thing. I preferably like to train slower, and refine the techniques before I try to beat the clock on a form. Otherwise you rush it and everyone watching can see how ridiculous you look. Has anybody else seen "yum bee" videos online? Makes me want to cry.


----------



## kitkatninja (Jul 18, 2017)

IcemanSK said:


> *Bump*
> 
> In the 1 1/2 years since I wrote this thread, I've realized a few things. I've since run into many TSD & a few Shotokan folks who do Bassai as I have learned it. I've yet to run into anyone outside the USCDKA who does Yumbee.
> 
> I'm facinated by Last Fearner's words that the old ITF Encyclopedia has both forms in it. I'd be curious if anyone has done them.



I do Tang Soo Do (with a Shotokan background) with an independent TSD association but which is a member of the WDSDU.  We do Bassai (which is Bassai Dai in Shotokan) as well as Yum Bee (also known as Empi or Wanshu).



Master-Theophylus said:


> ...Has anybody else seen "yum bee" videos online? Makes me want to cry.



I've seen some on youtube; agree with you there...


----------

