# Kenpo Roots & History Part 2



## Doc

From Combat Martial Sports Magazine

Part Two:
The Kenpo-Karate & JKD Connection

Ed Parkers creation, Kenpo-Karate, has a brother and a sister art. The sister is Jeet Kune Do (J.K.D.). Well save the brother for another day. Kenpo-Karate and J.K.D. are both training concepts, as opposed to styles, or even real systems of the martial arts. Although the Bruce Lee vehicle unlike the Ed Parker version was never designed to be commercial, Ed Parker had a considerable influenced in its creation and concept.

Bruce Lee spoke extensively with him about his (Bruces) own personal goals and dissatisfaction with his Wing Chun training (even though he hadnt really trained that long). He expressed a desire to learn as much as he could without the restraints imposed by any one discipline. Bruce became bored easily when he could not readily see benefit to what he was doing. Ed Parker argued this was ambitious, but typical for a 22 year old. (I think we tend to forget Bruce was just a talented kid.) Parker further expressed there must be variables to allow for the physical, emotional, and intellectual differences in students.  

For Bruce this was of little concern. He didnt really care about students or teaching. Bruce Lee was on a personal mission to enhance his own skills and his salability to become a movie star. His teaching was primarily to insure he had training partners and of course, to learn from other accomplished martial artists to get to his personal goals. When Lee moved to Southern California his school was not open or known to the public. The local insiders knew where it was, but to get in you had to bring something special to the table. It was located about five minutes away from Grandmaster Ark Wongs School in the Los Angeles Chinatown up on College Street. 

Ed Parker once realizing Lee was only interested in his own self-development, gave him some history making advice. Acknowledging Bruces obvious physical gifts, he suggested he should explore as much as possible from diverse teachers. Although Lee had already been doing this to a certain extent, Parker felt he should be introduced to the top guys, and of course, Ed Parker knew them all. Bringing him together with notable martial artists like Judo Gene LaBell, Dan Inosanto (from Ark Wong) and Sea Oh Choi to name a few, Ed Parker helped Bruce immensely with his martial arts. 

He advised Lee to study a variety of arts and take what he felt he could use. LaBell taught Bruce to grapple and became his stuntman in the Green Hornet TV show, while Choi was partially responsible for the awesome Korean style kicks Lee displayed on film. And of course, Dan Inosanto for teaching Bruce the many diverse weapons and for his Kenpo and Filipino Arts influence on Lee. Thus, the seed to ultimately what became JKD was planted. However, like motion based Kenpo-Karate, more a training concept than a style, and only a system within the confines of its own concept. His introduction by Ed Parker as well to William Dozier the director of the popular Batman T.V. series, who was casting for the Green Hornet, ultimately got him into television and jump-started his movie career.  

JKD wasnt about any particular technique or way of doing anything. It was about personal development, and actually had no real curriculum. Although it promoted some basic concepts of fighting ideas and postures, it offered no real techniques or consistent methodology. Bruces Book, the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, was actually published after his death, and consisted of a series of disconnected notes and drawings. These were simply conceptual ideas he was exploring for his personal use.

Ed Parkers approach however for his own commercial Kenpo-Karate vehicle was somewhat different, but not as different as you might think. He felt instructors needed to be well rounded to be of the greatest benefit to all of their students. As a teacher, your personal strengths and weaknesses should not be visited on your students. You never know at what a student may excel, even though you as a teacher may not. Kenpo-Karate is designed to be of maximum benefit to the singular individual, and only personal effectiveness is the primary goal. It was simple and ingenious on the part of both these men. They both borrowed from those around them. Bruce sought material for himself, and Parker, in an attempt to reach as many people as possible did the same.

Students and followers of both however, misunderstood. Kenpo-Karate practitioners continue to argue about the right way to execute a technique when there is none. They engage in Hypothetical Kenpo and intellectualize with no real foundation or basics, while conjuring up complicated what if scenarios. So-called JKD people argued about how to do JKD as well, while most of its original students dont really teach it. What has emerged is JKD Concepts which is probably more appropriate considering its conceptual nature. Further JKD is closer to a street style of sparring and generally gives no solutions to self-defense or grappling scenarios, much like Kenpo-Karate. In addition, much unlike Kenpo-Karate, JKD doesnt deal with modern street weapons, or surprise attacks. 

That is not to say Bruce did not possess the knowledge or the ability to deal with these scenarios. To the contrary, much like Ed Parker, Bruce kept a lot to himself. Instead he chose to explore mostly the street sparring aspect with the majority of his student sparring partners. Most were not even aware Bruce could grapple, or had joint manipulation skills until he displayed them on film much later.

The most obvious JKD Kenpo-Karate connection can be seen in Kenpo-Karates Freestyle Formulas. These were derived from certain Offensive Techniques planned but never written for Ed Parkers American Kenpo that was not completely evolved, and not to be confused with Kenpo-Karate. Once again watered down and presented as formulas, they were to educate and prod the Kenpo-Karate student into flexible thought when it came to sparring and competition. 

By using the Kenpo-Karate concepts of Re-arrangement, Prefixing, Inserting, Addition, and Deletion, in conjunction with an established base formula and footwork, these Freestyle Formulas followed the same conceptual design as the rest of His Kenpo-Karate. I dont think anyone ever had a better grasp of this component than Bob White, of Southern California, and his students. He has consistently proven this over the years in competition. There are competitors, and there are fighters. Bob White and his students are both. 

Unfortunately, however, most found this formulaic approach too complicated, and over the years, chose to ignore or abandon them altogether. Drafts of the last version of some the technique manuals Ed Parker was working on eliminated these formulas. Ed Parker created Kenpo-Karate to be conceptually and commercially viable out of necessity. He had to design it to be taught to the masses with maximum flexibility of thought and action. The hard curriculum he wanted to teach was not possible. Even though ultimately, it is only a small part of the whole of his American Kenpo Knowledge, Kenpo-Karate did have its own unique structure, and like JKD, only one real expert.

Ed Parker borrowed a business plan from a chain of dance studios and created a business guide and teaching manual. The material in this big Red Book manual was multi-phased. First, Ed Parker created a guide he called the Web of Knowledge. This was a spiraling ascending chart consisting of the theme of the individual assaults in a progressive attack variable pattern. It was designed to insure students considered specific situations in their training process, and virtually dictated self-defense techniques and there order of presentation, as well as formed the basis for Kenpo-Karates lesson plan. 

Student/teachers focused on techniques when the Web of Knowledge is the truth base.  Although Parker insisted on individual flexibility on defense, he felt it was important to consider as many scenarios of attack as reasonably possible. Over time as the sociological climate changed, some of these scenarios have become outdated, while other new scenarios need to be considered.

Revolutionary at the time, written technique manuals were created as a companion second part of the lesson plan. These were to give instructors a generalized starting point of ideas from which to extrapolate their defensive strategies dictated by the Web of Knowledge, based on concepts taught by Mr. Parker. No mention should be made of the earlier writings without acknowledging Tom Kelley and Richard Planas. These gentlemen contributed tremendously, and understand the philosophy of the material better than most for obvious reasons. They followed in the footsteps of Chuck Sullivan who was essentially there from the beginning, supporting as well as creating with Ed Parker.  

Coming in personal contact with the majority of his students infrequently, the need of a different approach is what brought about Kenpo-Karate. So Ed Parker began teaching, not so much a system but this Kenpo-Karate Lesson Plan he intended students to use as a general guide. The Web of Knowledge in conjunction with emerging concepts was supposed to be the center, with the technique manuals to provide ideas for a starting point for personal interpretations. Remember the primary objective was for the individual to defend himself with the information provided as quickly as possible. Ultimately the technique manuals became a sought after item, and were ultimately sold to students.

The problems of proliferating Kenpo-Karate were many. For one Ed Parker was constantly evolving and growing. New ideas replaced old ones rapidly, usually too fast for his students. That leads us to the next problem. All of Kenpo-Karates instructors were also its students themselves. Most were converts from other arts who were attempting to learn Ed Parkers ever-changing approach, and teach it at the same time. This in conjunction with the inherent flexibility of Kenpo-Karate, created mass confusion from school to school, instructor to instructor. What Ed Parker told one group in the morning, might be completely different from an afternoon session with a different audience.

Ed Parker knew the true sciences and more complex aspects of the whole of his American Kenpo, like traditional Chinese Arts, required very strictly taught basics and specific body mechanics to provide a solid long-term foundation. Additionally, even more specific continuing education under competent instruction would be necessary to move to advanced levels. Like JKD, limited competent instructors hampered this. Like Bruce Lee, only Ed Parker was the expert of his art. He also knew it would be impossible to teach his American Kenpo as he envisioned it in the recesses of his mind to the masses.

Kenpo-Karate is essentially a motion-based approach designed to foster reasonable self-defense skills, in a relatively short period. To this end, Kenpo-Karate routinely attacks soft human tissue such as the throat, testicles, and eyes to insure effectiveness. It teaches the student to overwhelm an opponent with multiple rapid fire flailing strikes and kicks. Conceptually simple, but it can be extremely effective in striking situations against the unskilled. It is very ineffective however in hands on or grappling circumstances because of the absence of other knowledge. This is the reason many practitioners have decided to augment their skills with grappling disciplines. Most instructors in Kenpo-Karate teach students to turn grabbing attacks into attempted grab attacks. Once grabbed, hugged, choked etc. they are hard pressed to teach students how to extricate themselves. In essence, Kenpo-Karate is a more sophisticated approach to many self-defense courses successfully taught in schools and colleges throughout the country. This is pure marketing genius on the part of Ed Parker.

As a limited layperson striking art however, this is where the genius of the man really showed. Because this creation is based on an Alphabetical and Numerical Re-arrangement Concept, its variations are literally infinite. Therefore, a student may study this Kenpo-Karate facet of American Kenpo on a superficial level, or if he/she chooses, explore its interpretations of motion endlessly into old age. This version is known for its journey approach, and is the method Parker chose to proliferate. It is extremely flexible and promotes personal development and style over and above structure. Kenpo-Karate is about 10% structure, and 90% personal interpretation. Ed Parkers American Kenpo is actually the reverse, and more like the traditional Chinese disciplines, with 90% very rigid structure, and 10% of tailored flexibility, but this interpretation was forever evolving and not generally taught.

The reason is simple. Kenpo-Karate is completely dominated by what Ed Parker called the Re-arrangement and Tailoring Concepts of motion. This is its strength and its weakness. Remember Ed Parker said, Tailored by self means limited by self. He also adopted a saying from science. General knowledge always produces general results. Although Kenpo-Karate may be studied infinitely, and produce very positive results, there is specific knowledge not found within its structure. No matter how long you re-arrange and explore its movements and structure, this knowledge cannot be found. Consider this reality. There is no physical or mental discipline in existence, where you may extrapolate the higher echelons by re-arranging it, or tailoring it to your own personal preferences. 

Your base of knowledge must be very specific and well defined before you attempt to build on it and move upward. You cannot do this with generalities. You cannot build a skyscrapers first floor to your own whims. The foundation has to be rock solid and the physics of building construction will dictate its architecture in a manner you may not personally like. Kenpo-Karates popularity in part, comes from the lack of strict structure found in other arts, as well as its relatively rapid progress through its ranks. Nevertheless, the trade off is a hard foundation that is needed to sustain and create the base for advanced development and internal energy. This is the reason why there are so many young masters of Kenpo-Karate. All that is required is you master your own circumstances with regard to its structure.

As an entity, it has no real scientific principles outside of Kenpo, and is virtually conceptually driven. At its best, it is a pseudo-science, and according to Ed Parker himself, created by a process called Comparative Analysis. The so-called principles are actually simple rules whose validity is constrained by its conceptual context. The rules may be absolute, but only as they pertain to the individual using it at the time. That is, Your rule may not be mine if it doesnt work for me, no matter how well it works for you. Students are encouraged to find another way to make it work, over and above continuing to work on the move for years. 

Loyal practitioners truly want to believe its hard science, but it isnt. It does however borrow ideas from science. What some may call principles, outside of the context of Kenpo-Karate, would have no meaning. The thought you could train in something for a few years, performing a group of techniques tailored to your personal preferences, and then take your experience and work your way to mastership is very illogical. You may get to higher levels, but only within the constraints of the limited concept. There are masters of Kenpo-Karate, but that doesnt mean they are masters of other aspects or higher levels of Ed Parkers American Kenpo, or even the martial arts.

Intelligent teachers and practitioners have realized something is missing from Kenpo-Karate. Many like Bob White years ago, borrowed the sport concept of cross training. Some are flocking in large numbers to grappling and manipulation disciplines. Others are quietly talking about the techniques they wouldnt use or the ones that dont work. Others still, are really struggling to make sense of what they have been told and taught by teachers with a limited effective curriculum. 

Although the idea of seeking knowledge from any source is commendable, some in search of real knowledge have even sought acupuncture charts in an attempt to reverse engineer techniques, and gain knowledge of nerve locations in combat scenarios. They are unaware of how much knowledge is missing, and cannot be found in that methodology. Kenpo-Karate doesnt provide the structure for such a process. In addition, acupuncture charts are much like Ed Parkers technique Manuals. They are a guide, and are not gospel. Especially when used in an active martial environment.

Others simply point the finger at the obvious deficiencies and abandon Kenpo-Karate altogether. This is much easier than looking inward and seeing the same deficient circumstances in oneself or ones teacher. Youll find ex-Kenpo students in abundance in Russian, Filipino, and other eclectic arts. Some dont mind being a beginner somewhere else as long as they keep their ranks in Kenpo. I have always found it curious that many speak as if what they know is all Ed Parker knew. They routinely suggest they pretty much know the material, and now are on the Bruce Lee journey sampling other arts. They do not seem to leave room for the possibility that Ed Parker like Bruce Lee was ahead of his students, and might have known things he didnt teach them. 

One of the things that kept Mr. Parker held in such high esteem was what students felt of his physical skill. No one seemed capable of physically duplicating what he did. Not understanding many thought the answer was simply to hit harder. As an example, many elements from the Chinese Sciences like the pak-sao, or slapping checks are evident in all of even his early movements recorded on film and tape. Yet, he never taught or wrote about them. Some have attempted to mimic him; not realizing slapping yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time can have devastating consequences in real combat. Other have simply followed the technique manuals and used Ed Parkers written substitute, positional check. 

He also made extensive use of nerve strikes and pressure points in all he did, but never talked about these things either after including nerve charts in his first book on Kenpo in 1961. He often told a story he called The Menu of Death that illustrated he had a knowledge of these things. Interestingly students laughed at the punch line but no one ever asked him the implications of the story. Still others attempted to duplicate Ed Parkers awesome abilities by concentrating on speed, and hitting students extremely hard to get the desired effect. Although effective, it is Neanderthal in comparison.

Students of American Kenpo have to ask themselves if Ed Parkers Infinite Insights books truly represents the sum of his knowledge as some Kenpoists have claimed. Ed Parker himself stated in the second volume of that series, that the material therein was from the early seventies, and it took him to the eighties to organize it. I have video of Ed Parker doing all of the techniques from the late sixties and early seventies, and they are essentially unchanged from what most are doing in a new millennium, over forty years later. Curious since that is not what Ed Parker was doing, or how he moved at the time he passed in 1990. Traditional Kenpo which many claim to perpetuate, by Mr. Parkers own standards is an oxymoron. There is no such thing. Just those who have stopped learning, and choose to cease educating themselves.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

You see, this is what I find ironic, you say you were being trained by Ed Parker, in what I'm assuming is special Kenpo, not the normal (commercial) version everybody else got.   Why is it then, you weren't included in the list of proteges in the 1979 Black Belt Magazine article?    Seems to me, if Mr. Parker was taking this much time to caress your knowledge of the Kenpo system he would've elevated you to the general public a bit more.   He didn't, I, and others, have to ask ourselves WHY NOT?

DarK LorD


----------



## Brother John

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Why is it then, you weren't included in the list of proteges in the 1979 Black Belt Magazine article? Seems to me, if Mr. Parker was taking this much time to caress your knowledge of the Kenpo system he would've elevated you to the general public a bit more. He didn't, I, and others, have to ask ourselves WHY NOT?
> 
> DarK LorD


I'd thought it was because Mr. Chapel didn't have the ambition to be a "protege", but just a student and friend.

Not everyone that Was listed ended up sticking around in the end, which is a shame perhaps.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Brother John said:
			
		

> I'd thought it was because Mr. Chapel didn't have the ambition to be a "protege", but just a student and friend.
> 
> Not everyone that Was listed ended up sticking around in the end, which is a shame perhaps.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
The  three listed in the article were Larry Tatum, Tom Kelly, and Joe Polanzo, they're still around and actively teaching as far as I know.

Ambition to be a protege, does anyone really have that, or just the desire to learn?  Your instructor determines if you have the means and ends to be what they would determine, one of their proteges.   I don't consider myself to be my instructor's protege, just a simple student trying to discover what more this art has to offer with his guidance.

DarK LorD


----------



## Brother John

yeah, those gentlemen are still around and going strong, no doubt. 
But what I meant was that, it seems to me that a "Protege" is someone that takes over where their mentor or leader/teacher left off. The men you mentioned are still teaching in their schools and active on the scene, but I don't think that they stepped up to bat or tried to 'pick up the pieces' after Mr. Parker's passing. They just kept on keeping on with what they'd been doing before his death, That's all I meant.  Not "Sticking around" was probably a bad way to word it.

It did seem to me that you were trying to put Mr. Chapel down because he wasn't listed as a protege... yet I think that he's still just as active and still teaching just as much (if not more, I don't have all the info) as the gentlemen you listed as the "protege's". 

I mean NONE of these men any disrespect at all, just making a point: that not being in that one articles list of protege is no measure for what Mr. Parker did or didn't do with any one of his students nor how he regarded them.   
I thought you didn't regard Black Belt, or any martial arts rag, as really 'authoritative' as they Often misquote and rearrange the order of what people in their interviews already said....leave things out that won't spark contraversy....etc.  But if you think it's a good measure of the facts, so be it.

Your Brother
John


----------



## IWishToLearn

Protege is a term used to describe the one who most embodies the characteristics of the "head honcho." It's been long said that Larry Tatum moves very similarly to Ed Parker. But none of Larry's students move like Larry does.


I think it's less conducive to the learning process to wax poetic about who is who and just get back to training. People have their own opinions and their own methodologies for everything in life - so long as you aren't hurting me or mine in the process - HAVE FUN.


----------



## IWishToLearn

Also: Thanks for the good read again Dr. Chapel!


----------



## BlackCatBonz

nice insights, doc......opening doors the average joe doesnt get to open.
just shows, that like an iceberg, there is more beneath the surface.


----------



## Dan G

Looking forward to part 3!

Is the brother art Kajukenbo? 

Enjoyable article,

regards

Dan


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> The three listed in the article were Larry Tatum, Tom Kelly, and Joe Polanzo, they're still around and actively teaching as far as I know.
> 
> Ambition to be a protege, does anyone really have that, or just the desire to learn? Your instructor determines if you have the means and ends to be what they would determine, one of their proteges. I don't consider myself to be my instructor's protege, just a simple student trying to discover what more this art has to offer with his guidance.
> 
> DarK LorD


 
Intriguing. Each of the guys you list as the most-honorific of Parkers boyz either had a falling out w/ Mr. Parker during his lifetime for conduct unbercoming, or conducted themselves questionably after his passing in attempts to be the next king. I can see the place from which flying under the radar ould be more advantagous for long term rapport & relationship.

Contribute, Clyde. Don't just poke bears for kicks & giggles; offer something edifying.  That Doc is presenting his stuff as "the way Mr. Parker showed me" shouldn't be surprising...it's what each one of the seniors & semi-seniors -- consensus, and self-declared -- say they are doing. How many kenpo seniors does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Or are you planning on joining the ranks of people that insist on things like, "Chape'l was never at the Parker house", even though there are pics of it, Jr. confirms it; Hale and others who were there confirm it...c'mon. You are presenting your kenpo as the way you've learned it from your guides in the journey, combined with your own experiences and insights. Quit being silly and antagonistic just for the heck of it. Do whjat you do well, pass it on as what you do, and help QUALITY kenpo grow and spread in an environment where there are too many guys with a lot of red and no talent.

Just my 2 cents

Regards,

Dave


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Contribute, Clyde. Don't just poke bears for kicks & giggles; offer something edifying.
> 
> 
> Or are you planning on joining the ranks of people that insist on things like, "Chape'l was never at the Parker house", even though there are pics of it, Jr. confirms it; Hale and others who were there confirm it...c'mon. You are presenting your kenpo as the way you've learned it from your guides in the journey, combined with your own experiences and insights. Quit being silly and antagonistic just for the heck of it. Do whjat you do well, pass it on as what you do, and help QUALITY kenpo grow and spread in an environment where there are too many guys with a lot of red and no talent.
> 
> Just my 2 cents
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave


 
Never said Chapel didn't train with Parker, in fact, I've never even insinuated it, and if you think I have, please post a link to where I've said it.

I don't know what Chapel is doing these days, but from what I've seen (on video and in person),  and from his posts on Parting Wings, ie., changing the nature of Attack and the technique,  he's not even close anymore.

Tell me how that makes me silly and antagonistic when I go out and ensure EPAK gets quality representation to other arts.    They don't laugh and start slapping each other when they see American Kenpo after they've met me.

DarK LorD


----------



## jazkiljok

excellent and insightful article Doc. thanks. in regards to the topic of "protege" and such just let me say... 

excellent and insightful article Doc. thanks


----------



## IWishToLearn

Is like um waiting for part 3 already! 


*Tries being patient*.

Doesn't work.


*Tries again...*


----------



## Doc

jazkiljok said:
			
		

> excellent and insightful article Doc. thanks. in regards to the topic of "protege" and such just let me say...
> 
> excellent and insightful article Doc. thanks


Mr. Parker expressed that he hated he ever went that way, but it was about expanding the business. Untimately all of the ones mentioned either quit and/or were fired. So much for the "proteg&#233;."

But Parker had many different types of students. Some were head guys/gal in the commercial Kenpo. Some were in place only because they made money and/or kept Parker's schools open. Parker was a businessman and he knew 'boosting' or promoting students in print who ran his schools or brought in the business was 'good busines.'

Later he swapped them for a new group he was using to promote his business. Jeff Speakman, Brian Hawkins (who replaced Tatum in the business), and Barbara Hale were to open additional schools after the 'Perfect Weapon' generated new interest. All of his print comments were always geared to supporting his 'business of kenpo.'

Personally I think the list of those he didn't list in that article was a much more impressive group of people, and oddly, all NOT listed were older students that predate the commercial business of kenpo. Not a coincidence I assure you.


----------



## Bode

I guess Mr. Labounty (Another ancient) should be questioned regarding his training just as much as you Doc. After all, he wasn't mentioned in the highly regarded Black Belt article. Oh no, I guess that completely invalidates everything Mr. Labounty has to say... I'm sure his feelings were hurt. Maybe someone should send him flowers.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Bode said:
			
		

> I guess Mr. Labounty (Another ancient) should be questioned regarding his training just as much as you Doc. After all, he wasn't mentioned in the highly regarded Black Belt article. Oh no, I guess that completely invalidates everything Mr. Labounty has to say... I'm sure his feelings were hurt. Maybe someone should send him flowers.


 
Steve LaBounty is known by nearly every Kenpoist around, simply because he's a helluva nice guy and a tough Hombre to boot.    I've laid hands on with him, and I can tell you first hand, what he does, works.

DarK LorD


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

DKL,

OK, well then whom do you think of the top seniors are the ones with the skill knowledge and talent?

I would expect you to put someone other then Mr Tatum.


----------



## Bode

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Steve LaBounty is known by nearly every Kenpoist around, simply because he's a helluva nice guy and a tough Hombre to boot.    I've laid hands on with him, and I can tell you first hand, what he does, works.
> 
> DarK LorD



So, with that, your point about the Black Belt article and Doc not being mentioned is quite moot. Steve Labounty was not included, but yet, as you admit, possesses skill. 

Given your comment, it's not about a black belt article or Doc's history lesson, but on your crusade to discredit those who's kenpo you believe "doesn't work." We've been through this time and time again. On Martial Talk your words fall on deaf ears because so many of the people here know Doc and have experienced what being hit (more like tapped) by him feels like. We can run down the list of high ranking black belts if you like? Some are even part of the vaunted LTKKA, which you so vehemently support. Does that make them lesser Kenpoists or puppets in Doc's game of hypnosis? Likely for you, hypnosis is a convenient excuse that assuages your bruised ego. 

Take what you can Clyde, from everywhere. Dismiss what you like. That is your right, but attempting a crusade on those you dislike is akin to children calling each other names.  Doc is not some self promotional megolomaniac who sleeps with students, takes their money at will, and gives little in return, like a few of the internet warriors out there. We're he, your wrath might be justified. 

You have a following Clyde. Use it to become the best teacher you can. It's obvious you care about Kenpo, but why not let bygones be bygones. We can all learn from each other, regardless of rank, age, gender, or otherwise. Hell, you could be pink with three arms and I'd listen long enough to see if you had something important to say.


----------



## IWishToLearn

Bode said:
			
		

> Hell, you could be pink with three arms and I'd listen long enough to see if you had something important to say.



Freakin sweet! I've got a chance!

:asian:


----------



## arnisador

Doc said:
			
		

> Later he swapped them for a new group he was using to promote his business.



I have to say...it would be easy to take some of your posts as disparaging Mr. Parker as yet another Soke McDojo wannabe. I realize you respect him and that peopla are complex and neither wholly good nor wholly bad, yet when I read things like this and consider that he was self-promoted to 10th degree, I think of the Fred Villaris and Soke Calkins of the world.

I don't mean to offend, but...aren't you basically stating that he was a McDojo propenent, because he wanted to make money?


----------



## Doc

arnisador said:
			
		

> I have to say...it would be easy to take some of your posts as disparaging Mr. Parker as yet another Soke McDojo wannabe. I realize you respect him and that peopla are complex and neither wholly good nor wholly bad, yet when I read things like this and consider that he was self-promoted to 10th degree, I think of the Fred Villaris and Soke Calkins of the world.
> 
> I don't mean to offend, but...aren't you basically stating that he was a McDojo propenent, because he wanted to make money?



I understand what you mean sir, and he and I used to have our disagreements as well because of some of the things I saw coming out of the schools. We argued about kids ranking and young black belts. He even assigned my thesis for 7th to deal with the proliferation of children into the schools without dilution of the grading process, because I made so much noise about kids belts. 

But my perpsective was hard core Chinese much like his, but I never had a commercial school or engaged in the business of teaching to make a living. When you do, compromise is something that cannot be ignored. I have always been full time public law enforcment, so I could then as now afford to pick and choose my students and turn away those whose level of commitment and intellect was not up to what I wanted. Make no mistake about it, Mr. Parker was in the business of kenpo, and he never did anything else from the time he left college.

He felt the idea of a McDojo wasn't a bad thing anymore than its fast food brother McDonalds. It is what it is. You want a quick fast meal that will fill you up for a reasonable price, you go to McDonald's. If you wanted a really fine meal, you had to seek out a special restaurant, and expect to pay a premium price for the priviledge.

If you went into a strip mall or store front school full of women, children and middle aged men, you shouldn't expect to get ancient Chinese secrets. If you could find Ark Wong's school in the middle of Chinatown upstairs over a bar, and you walked in and there was an old Chinese man preparing herbs in between knocking people out with ease, then you had a right to expect more than a "big mac."

He took pride in a recognizable product in his name all across the country, and beyond. He was the Father of American Karate." No one had ever done that before. But he insisted there was a significant foundation available in his 'business kenpo' that would allow the diligent to become reasonably adept. Those that truly wanted more will ultimately seek it, and some no matter what you do will never rise above a certian level. 

He created a componant that was pure marketing genius. It could appeal to everyone, including the hard core physical as well as the casual. But like anything else that gets big, you lose control. He always made a point to say that instructors are supposed to be responsible for the quality of their students, not he. The majority of those that claim Parker as an instructor were actually co-promoted. Very few had Parker's name on the instructor line of the big diplomas, and even of those, almost none began with Parker as a white belt.

In the beginning it worked well because of the stature of the first group of instructors that went into business. They were already tough guys, Parker just taught them the business and some of his Kenpo Concepts. Over the years though it continued to get more and more diluted by its own structure. Still with moderate effort, you can find someone that will teach you enough to take care of yourself under most circumstances you are likely to encounter today. Isn't that why most come in the door? I've never seen anyone come in and say, "I want to be a master of the martial arts, and I have 25 years to work on it." 

Yeah he was self promoted to 10th, but even that was business. Parker hated stripes and rank. It was the business that dictated it, and as students coveted and assumed rank, he had to as well. Parker never wore any belt markings until the business took off and he had to. He was 7th then and was promoted to 8th by Sijo Adriano Emperado. Parker was so respected in the arts by everyone from every discipline he could have made himself anything he wanted. He had a drawer full of 10th degree certifcates from every organization you could think of. Everyone honored him, and acknowledged his business acumen brought profit to all and created an industry.


----------



## arnisador

Thanks for this honest answer. I do agree with the McDonald's analogy; it brings a certain consistency that mutes both the highs and the lows.


----------



## pete

WOW, just noticed that Clyde has been banished to the corn field for being a bad man, a very bad man.  I guess any challenges to what may appear to be revisionist history will be kept in check. 

we have now entered a new dimension, not one of height-width-or-depth, but of mind.  there's a signpost up ahead: the Martial Talk Zone.
dodododo.


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

Before I even say what I am about to say let me preface it first by saying that I in no way intend to disrespt anyone at all by this comment.

If Mr Parker took the rank of 10th for mainly business decisions then what are the reasons for all of the 10th out there now.  Were thier decisions to take that rank business as well?

Once again please do not take this as a knock on anyone or thier rank or thier decision to hold that rank.


----------



## Bode

Doc said:
			
		

> He took pride in a recognizable product in his name all across the country, and beyond. He was the Father of American Karate." No one had ever done that before. But he insisted there was a significant foundation available in his 'business kenpo' that would allow the diligent to become reasonably adept.


I think this is the key. The times were very, very different. America had not exposed to the martial arts on any large scale. Very few people had the opportunity to learn. 

Mr. Parker was able to bring a structure to the martial arts that allowed, as you say, the diligent to become reasonably adept. Are they better off having some training than absolutely none? Probably, considering the strong and common sense principles EPAK was built upon. 

In some cases no training may be better than McDojo training, but given the time, the instructors, and EPAK's structure, I don't believe this was the case.


----------



## Doc

pete said:
			
		

> WOW, just noticed that Clyde has been banished to the corn field for being a bad man, a very bad man.  I guess any challenges to what may appear to be revisionist history will be kept in check.
> 
> we have now entered a new dimension, not one of height-width-or-depth, but of mind.  there's a signpost up ahead: the Martial Talk Zone.
> dodododo.


Do not attempt to adjust your picture ... for the next hour we will control all that you see and hear .... 

You telling your age Pete.


----------



## Kenpodoc

I think Mcdojo is the wrong analogy for what Mr. Parker tried to create. A better analogy would be a comparison to to "The Outback" restaurants.  A chain product which provides a relatively good meal in a marketable, reproducible manner not solely dependent on the manager or the chef for quality.

Jeff


----------



## Doc

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Before I even say what I am about to say let me preface it first by saying that I in no way intend to disrespt anyone at all by this comment.
> 
> If Mr Parker took the rank of 10th for mainly business decisions then what are the reasons for all of the 10th out there now.  Were thier decisions to take that rank business as well?
> 
> Once again please do not take this as a knock on anyone or thier rank or thier decision to hold that rank.


I think to a certain extent you may be correct, but I think a huge dose of ego and pride drives it more than anything. Then there is the competitive nature of the business. To the layman the higher the number the 'better' the guy is. If the guy you're talking to is a '7th,' and there is a 9th down the street, the layperson will go see the '9th.' 

With rare exception all the people who said they would never take a 10th (out of respect for Mr. Parker) have done so. In addition to the other reasons stated, an individuals organization can also drive it as it was with Parker. Your students always think you should be 10th.

I got caught up in it as well. I was recruited into the American Teachers Association of the Martial Arts (ATAMA), founded by Ralph Castro and Duke Moore to help anchor a Southern California Chapter along with an old friend of mine from Shotokan, Dr. Bernd Weiss. After a national presentation for the organization, I was surprised and awarded an 8th with a slap on the back from SGM Castro himself for "presenting Kenpo in the light it deserved." (The organization was primarily represented by other traditional styles, so Kenpo was a rare bird on display). Here I was presenting with Tak Kubota, Ralph Castro, Edwin Hamile, Bill Ryusaki, and other contemporaries of my teacher. The same happened for a 9th and 10th for me. 

Later they published a book "Who's Who In The Martial Arts," and I and my relationship with Parker was higlighted in the book. Traveling and doing seminars outside of Kenpo for years with different disciplines garnered me a 9th from Dan Zan Ryu Jiu-jitsu, a 9th in Karate-do from WUKO and Shihan Edwin Hamile, and other ranks from very legitimate organizations. While it felt good to prove myself outside of the Kenpo political structure, ultimately you put these things in context. My students had a 10th made for me, and I wore it about ten minutes one day and never put it back on. For me it 'didn't feel right.'

I came up with Parker wearing no stripes and only put them on when he did. I continued to wear them because my students did. One day I woke up and realized I was in charge and didn't have to wear any stripes at all, so I went back to the old Parker Tradition. So now as a group, we don't wear black belt stripes, or talk about rank. Plane belts work fine. 

My point is I have never been in the business and yet I got caught up in it as well. Everyone wants to be acknowledged for their years of hard work and acquired skills, and I had been at it literally all of my life. Some should be wearing 10ths, and Parker allowed for this in his rank structure. But the sad thing is Kenpo-Karate has more 8th's, 9th's, 10th's and different organizations than any other art in existence. It has been overwhelmed by 'business' and the majority of them shouldn't be.


----------



## Doc

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> I think Mcdojo is the wrong analogy for what Mr. Parker tried to create. A better analogy would be a comparison to to "The Outback" restaurants.  A chain product which provides a relatively good meal in a marketable, reproducible manner not solely dependent on the manager or the chef for quality.
> 
> Jeff


I would disagree. It was and is wholly dependent on the manager for the quality of the product. The McDonald's analogy was drawn by Parker himself, and he didn't find it a negative. He saw McDonald's as the original franchise business that it was, and thoroughly explored the concept and existing successful business plans. He ultimately settled on the Arthur Murray Dance Studio business plan, with a McDonald's twist. I actually sat in on one of these meetings with a 'franchise expert' when the concept was new. Parker knew what he was doing, and If Kenpo was as good as McDonald's in the arts, he would be happy. It isn't.


----------



## Flying Crane

Doc said:
			
		

> I think to a certain extent you may be correct, but I think a huge dose of ego and pride drives it more than anything. Then there is the competitive nature of the business. To the layman the higher the number the 'better' the guy is. If the guy you're talking to is a '7th,' and there is a 9th down the street, the layperson will go see the '9th.'


 
yeah, this is my impression too.  And the thing is, somebody could very well be excellent, but they would not be any less excellent had they just kept the 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th dan that they legitately earned.  High rank is given out like a door-prize, or is seized by someone with an insatiable ago or a business need.  What should be rare has become common as dirt.  There I go, on my soapbox again...


----------



## Doc

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> yeah, this is my impression too.  And the thing is, somebody could very well be excellent, but they would not be any less excellent had they just kept the 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th dan that they legitately earned.  High rank is given out like a door-prize, or is seized by someone with an insatiable ago or a business need.  What should be rare has become common as dirt.  There I go, on my soapbox again...


You need a bigger box, to make room for me.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

pete said:
			
		

> WOW, just noticed that Clyde has been banished to the corn field for being a bad man, a very bad man. I guess any challenges to what may appear to be revisionist history will be kept in check.
> 
> we have now entered a new dimension, not one of height-width-or-depth, but of mind. there's a signpost up ahead: the Martial Talk Zone.
> dodododo.


 
Stay with me on this one, and see if you can spot the "silly" part.

I ain't banishing Clyde, nor am I supporting a criticism-free forum for the sake of propagating revisionist history. Doc's position is simple: There is a commercial, money-making version of kenpo...in fact, several: I don't think Mr. Parker ever taught the same technique the same way twice, regardless of how it was written in the red book.  There are also different aspects of kenpo which were NOT made readily available to the masses, generally because they did not support an income-generating market.

Clyde, of all folks, should be aware of this. According to several folks who were regularly there, the old Thursday night classes in Santa Monica were behind closed doors...mainly, because the public would have been scared away by the intensity of the training sessions. Secret kenpo taught after hours? Nah, not secret...just more detailed, and a little more hard core in delivery and exploration. Kenpo most kenpoists will never see, much less non-kenpoists. Kenpo subtley different from what the commercial mainstream experiences.

Now keep in mind...that's one group of people in one location. There were other cells elsewhere, each being fed different items to focus on. There are some subtleties in techniques that can only be explored with this brand of intensity. They leave marks; they make people veeerry sore. No moms are going to sign their kids up for that abuse; nor are weekend warriors apt to stick around for the privilege of being bounced off the walls to learn it. Meanwhile, the sole proprietor has to pay the bills. Solution is simple...dumb it down for the folks who aren't up for getting jiggy with it. Generally, about 98 to 99 percent of the student load.

Does Larry blast his orange belts with the same intensity he brings to his black belts? I bet not. Yet they all will be able to say, "I trained with Larry Tatum", despite their very different experiences and the content of their learnings. Blasting is bad for business. Data-dumping all the possibilities that cross your mind in a training session is bad for business. Not having a standardized cirriculum is bad for business. Parker was a businessman. It was not in his best interest to explore all his ideas all the time with all the people. Bad for business.

It could then be argued that Larry has a commercial product -- the kenpo he uses to run his money-maker classes, such as kids and beginners classes -- and a more personal kenpo: What he trains when doing his own gig, or the next-layer of intensity he breaks out with his upper-crust boyz.

Something has to pay the bills.  I ain't out to censor Clyde. Let the man speak; he has certainly done his time to be entitled to an opinion, even if I'm not in agreement, or consider it poorly informed. (free speech vs mohammed cartoons). I would rather see him offer positive possible alternatives as opposed to taking pot-shots at what/who he disagrees with.  

We have some full-blown loonies in kenpo, insisting on stuff like...toting around Parkers workout clothing entitles them to be the next messianic kenpo action figurine. Yet, for all the wierdness out there, we get people slinging at Doc because his experiences with Parker were different than those had by others; generally, the "others" they trained with or are tree'd under. He holds up his banner, and folks take shots at it. Not only did he spend enough time with Parker to be one of the dinosaurs, he also trained with some of the guys Parker trained with. He is one of the few to have stuck around during re-writes and reorganizations of kenpo by Mr. Parker. He is one of the few who didn't have to tread softly with the old man, because he didn't betray his friendship or come knocking on the door looking solely for rank and recognition. They were friends...they shot the $#!%, and explored concepts in conversation and on the mat that didn't make it into mainstream kenpo, because they just didn't belong there. That's not double-secret ninja kenpo training; that's just two kenpo geeks talking about what gets their geek on. How could they NOT cover different territory than what's in the journals?

Also, unfortunately (for the masses asserting that Doc is writing revisionist histories), there are other well-known, highly recognized prominent kenpoists who have/will concur in private with what Doc's holding up. Why don't they do it in public? Bad for business.

Kenpo is a commercial venture. One must pay the bills. With a home mortgage, site lease, and business loan to repay, it would make excellent sense to cling publicly to the "What you see (in the books and seminars) is all there is" version of kenpo history.

As for lauging and slapping...to date, Doc's boys have some of the most predictably solid basics; stances, strikes, blocks, etc. I've personally seen waaayy to many kenpoistas with wicked fast techniques, full command of the kenpo-speak terminology from the books, but who move like disjointed marionettes and can't hit a target hard enough to harm it. Doc's techniques are not out of the manual, but his kenpo is solid, as is the kenpo of his rugrats. He is a ***** about basics, because he can afford to be...his kenpo don't pay the bills.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## Flying Crane

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Stay with me on this one, and see if you can spot the "silly" part.
> 
> I ain't banishing Clyde, nor am I supporting a criticism-free forum for the sake of propagating revisionist history. Doc's position is simple: There is a commercial, money-making version of kenpo...in fact, several: I don't think Mr. Parker ever taught the same technique the same way twice, regardless of how it was written in the red book. There are also different aspects of kenpo which were NOT made readily available to the masses, generally because they did not support an income-generating market.
> 
> Clyde, of all folks, should be aware of this. According to several folks who were regularly there, the old Thursday night classes in Santa Monica were behind closed doors...mainly, because the public would have been scared away by the intensity of the training sessions. Secret kenpo taught after hours? Nah, not secret...just more detailed, and a little more hard core in delivery and exploration. Kenpo most kenpoists will never see, much less non-kenpoists. Kenpo subtley different from what the commercial mainstream experiences.
> 
> Now keep in mind...that's one group of people in one location. There were other cells elsewhere, each being fed different items to focus on. There are some subtleties in techniques that can only be explored with this brand of intensity. They leave marks; they make people veeerry sore. No moms are going to sign their kids up for that abuse; nor are weekend warriors apt to stick around for the privilege of being bounced off the walls to learn it. Meanwhile, the sole proprietor has to pay the bills. Solution is simple...dumb it down for the folks who aren't up for getting jiggy with it. Generally, about 98 to 99 percent of the student load.
> 
> Does Larry blast his orange belts with the same intensity he brings to his black belts? I bet not. Yet they all will be able to say, "I trained with Larry Tatum", despite their very different experiences and the content of their learnings. Blasting is bad for business. Data-dumping all the possibilities that cross your mind in a training session is bad for business. Not having a standardized cirriculum is bad for business. Parker was a businessman. It was not in his best interest to explore all his ideas all the time with all the people. Bad for business.
> 
> It could then be argued that Larry has a commercial product -- the kenpo he uses to run his money-maker classes, such as kids and beginners classes -- and a more personal kenpo: What he trains when doing his own gig, or the next-layer of intensity he breaks out with his upper-crust boyz.
> 
> Something has to pay the bills. I ain't out to censor Clyde. Let the man speak; he has certainly done his time to be entitled to an opinion, even if I'm not in agreement, or consider it poorly informed. (free speech vs mohammed cartoons). I would rather see him offer positive possible alternatives as opposed to taking pot-shots at what/who he disagrees with.
> 
> We have some full-blown loonies in kenpo, insisting on stuff like...toting around Parkers workout clothing entitles them to be the next messianic kenpo action figurine. Yet, for all the wierdness out there, we get people slinging at Doc because his experiences with Parker were different than those had by others; generally, the "others" they trained with or are tree'd under. He holds up his banner, and folks take shots at it. Not only did he spend enough time with Parker to be one of the dinosaurs, he also trained with some of the guys Parker trained with. He is one of the few to have stuck around during re-writes and reorganizations of kenpo by Mr. Parker. He is one of the few who didn't have to tread softly with the old man, because he didn't betray his friendship or come knocking on the door looking solely for rank and recognition. They were friends...they shot the $#!%, and explored concepts in conversation and on the mat that didn't make it into mainstream kenpo, because they just didn't belong there. That's not double-secret ninja kenpo training; that's just two kenpo geeks talking about what gets their geek on. How could they NOT cover different territory than what's in the journals?
> 
> Also, unfortunately (for the masses asserting that Doc is writing revisionist histories), there are other well-known, highly recognized prominent kenpoists who have/will concur in private with what Doc's holding up. Why don't they do it in public? Bad for business.
> 
> Kenpo is a commercial venture. One must pay the bills. With a home mortgage, site lease, and business loan to repay, it would make excellent sense to cling publicly to the "What you see (in the books and seminars) is all there is" version of kenpo history.
> 
> As for lauging and slapping...to date, Doc's boys have some of the most predictably solid basics; stances, strikes, blocks, etc. I've personally seen waaayy to many kenpoistas with wicked fast techniques, full command of the kenpo-speak terminology from the books, but who move like disjointed marionettes and can't hit a target hard enough to harm it. Doc's techniques are not out of the manual, but his kenpo is solid, as is the kenpo of his rugrats. He is a ***** about basics, because he can afford to be...his kenpo don't pay the bills.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave


 
Thank you for this excellent post.  An outsider like myself is starting to understand the bigger picture.


----------



## Brother John

Good perspective on things there Dave.
Seriously...

thank you


Your Brother
John


----------



## pete

unfortunately, you are getting one side of a bigger picture.  

me, i'm a nobody, and far be it from me to say Doc is wrong (or right for that matter).  what Doc and Dave say makes a lot of sense, and i will NOT dispute for one minute the accuracy and integrity by which Doc has graciously elaborated relating to his relationship, training, and friendship with SGM Parker.  Further, i have no reason to doubt that he was taught differently and explored different material with his friend and teacher.  

this happens all the time with good teachers and their students, whether they be friends or not.

then there is the commercial, hamburger, motion, dance school stuff that also makes sense for the masses... but, are we expected to believe that people like larry tatum, steven labounty, tom kelly, joe palanzo, etc were not taught at the same level of quality as Dr Chapel?  Could it be possible that these men, proteges if you will, were given much of the same instruction, or if different, then at the same level of quality, as each other and Doc alike?  

Maybe these other seniors were taught the 'advanced concepts' not to teach to their kids and weekend warriors, but to hold for those students who earn it... maybe?  

Seniors like Tatum, LaBounty, Kelly, Palanzo are all men with at least 40 years in the martial arts. yes business is business, but i give them all credit that they would have figured it out on their own by now~

pete.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

I would venture to say that each of them had different experiences with Mr. Parker. In fact, I'd bet on it. 

One of Clyde's stated/inferred beefs is that Doc has changed the techniques off the standardized format. Not one of the guys named does any of the techs the same way. LaBounty has been around long enough to make up his own mind, and deviates from established techniques to teach or illustrate principles. I also understand he does extensions...which happen to be nothing like the Kelly/Larry/Huk/Palanzo, etc., extensions.

A couple of the guys you mentioned above also either took breaks from Parker, so to speak, or were situated in geographically undesirable locations so as to be unavailable for much of the stuff.

Kelly is an excellent example for the point I was hoping to make. He is, by the "testimony" of several around in the last days, the busiest recipient of Parker's newest fedback on the written manuals. Binders of typed notes with handwritten edits by Parker, elucidating small differences that make a difference. Understanding the way Mr. Parker compartmentalized the people around him, I would say that those notebooks represent a clearer picture of the final kenpo version Parker was working on...with Kelly. Who's to say what went on when he was on the mat or on the phone or trading ideas with Planas, vs Kelly, or any of the other oldsters with whom he was maintaining ties.

Another important point I glossed over a moment ago: Mr. Parker compartmentalized his relationships. 2 of the guys you mentioned had -- while Mr. Parker was still here -- reputations for only really showing up looking for rank or recognition in the business and politics of doing kenpo. As if to punctuate this point, they both went to Mrs. Parker to ask for higher advanced ranks shortly after the old man slipped off the plate. At least one (I'm not sure about the other), when denied by Mr. Parkers wife, did NOT address his concerns to the IKKA, but rather promptly seperated and promoted himself accordingly.

Mr. Parker was smart enough to know which side his bread was buttered on; large chain guys got front row seats at the show, and regular promotions to keep the cash cow's milk flowing. He was also smart enough to govern the flow of information accordingly. Those he cared for and trusted got more after the show was over, regardless of rank.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## Brother John

pete said:
			
		

> but, are we expected to believe that people like larry tatum, steven labounty, tom kelly, joe palanzo, etc were not taught at the same level of quality as Dr Chapel? Could it be possible that these men, proteges if you will, were given much of the same instruction, or if different, then at the same level of quality, as each other and Doc alike?
> 
> pete.



I really don't see it as an issue of "....taught at the same level or quality", but that Mr. Parker had a gift for adressing lessons to meet the students level of understanding and ability...
and that sometimes he would teach something to someone else *differently* as sort of a "lab-experiment" to see what they'd do with it and see how it'd work.
Each of the men you mentioned are, from what I know, TOP NOTCH practitioners of Kenpo!!! Each, I'd bet, recieved some very individualize instruction from Mr. Parker.  
Just my thoughts.

Your Brother
John


----------



## hongkongfooey

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Another important point I glossed over a moment ago: Mr. Parker compartmentalized his relationships. 2 of the guys you mentioned had -- while Mr. Parker was still here -- reputations for only really showing up looking for rank or recognition in the business and politics of doing kenpo. As if to punctuate this point, they both went to Mrs. Parker to ask for higher advanced ranks shortly after the old man slipped off the plate. At least one (I'm not sure about the other), when denied by Mr. Parkers wife, did NOT address his concerns to the IKKA, but rather promptly seperated and promoted himself accordingly.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave


 


Dave, 

I know that Palanzo and I believe Planas started the WKKA shortly after Mr. Parker died. I had also heard a rumor that there were some inquiries about rank promotions from other Blackbelts  before Mr. Parker was even laid to rest. I find this appalling if true. Could you or Doc shed some light on this issue. If you don't want to answer, I can understand. This is a touchy subject for some people. I you do want to answer, PM me if you don't want to post public.

Thanks,

HKF


----------



## Carol

Brother John said:
			
		

> I really don't see it as an issue of "....taught at the same level or quality", but that Mr. Parker had a gift for adressing lessons to meet the students level of understanding and ability...
> and that sometimes he would teach something to someone else *differently* as sort of a "lab-experiment" to see what they'd do with it and see how it'd work.
> Each of the men you mentioned are, from what I know, TOP NOTCH practitioners of Kenpo!!! Each, I'd bet, recieved some very individualize instruction from Mr. Parker.
> Just my thoughts.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
Not only understanding and ability, but also the interest of the student, and where they want to go with their art.  That seems to apply to many different types of art.  Studying music at the college level, an instructor has a certain amound of ground that s/he has to cover with their students. That material is also framed by what the student is interested in and how the student interprets what is being taught.  

A great music teacher can produce great performers, but a great music teacher rarely produces identical performers.  

Is it possible that Kenpo is the same way?


----------



## hongkongfooey

pete said:
			
		

> WOW, just noticed that Clyde has been banished to the corn field for being a bad man, a very bad man. I guess any challenges to what may appear to be revisionist history will be kept in check.
> 
> we have now entered a new dimension, not one of height-width-or-depth, but of mind. there's a signpost up ahead: the Martial Talk Zone.
> dodododo.


 

Revisionist history? Who's version?


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Dave,
> 
> I know that Palanzo and I believe Planas started the WKKA shortly after Mr. Parker died. I had also heard a rumor that there were some inquiries about rank promotions from other Blackbelts before Mr. Parker was even laid to rest. I find this appalling if true. Could you or Doc shed some light on this issue. If you don't want to answer, I can understand. This is a touchy subject for some people. I you do want to answer, PM me if you don't want to post public.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> HKF


 
Too much mud-slinging in kenpo for me to want to join in more than I already have. There were some guys who leaped for the kenpo throne pretty much upon the news of Mr. Parkers passing. Some guys were instant; some put more thought into how to be thorough about it; some stayed out of the mess, but ended up having to go similar ways with the due passage of time and inevitable dissolution of more sensible (?) organizations in kenpo. Unfortunately, there were a few folks who were so sure they should be the next king, that they pestered the family to recognize thier ascension to the throne before the family even had time to digest or grieve their loss. My deepest respects in this regard go to the guys who just quietly went their way to do their thing.

Generally you'll see new groups in kenpo form for one of four main reasons:

1. Money - it is more profitable to own the organization, and keep the cash for testing, patches, yearly dues, etc. 

2.  Power/Ego - It is more gratifying to be on top of the mountain, than near it or on it's slopes.

3. Change - What happens if what you teach is no longer what you learned? Add some stuff; take some stuff away...this is, arguably, one of the most controversial reasons to start a kenpo splinter faction.

4. Sadness over quality concerns/Nostalgia - there were a couple guys who were fairly close to Mr. Parker over one or more of the decades prior to his death. Each had their unique experiences with him, and each considers theirs to represent a certain quality. Some of these guys come out of kenpo retirement after seeing kenpo done poorly. They haven't been in any existing loops, and don't really want to associate to the way they see any current guys doing it, so they start their own gig and re-hash what they remember from their time with Mr. Parker. Some of those oldsters rock, and some would have done kenpo a better service if they stayed under a rock.

They aren't all bad. Some guys are doing really outstanding jobs of representing kenpo in their teaching.

I recently read a list of 9ths and 10ths on Mr. Conatsers website. Reading over it, you get a mix of responses. Well, you pretty much get two responses. "I could see that; that makes sense...he's pretty much as deserving as any other guy on the list," Or, "what? Him? Why on earth..."

Regards,

Dave


----------



## Doc

pete said:
			
		

> unfortunately, you are getting one side of a bigger picture.
> 
> me, i'm a nobody, and far be it from me to say Doc is wrong (or right for that matter).  what Doc and Dave say makes a lot of sense, and i will NOT dispute for one minute the accuracy and integrity by which Doc has graciously elaborated relating to his relationship, training, and friendship with SGM Parker.  Further, i have no reason to doubt that he was taught differently and explored different material with his friend and teacher.
> 
> this happens all the time with good teachers and their students, whether they be friends or not.
> 
> then there is the commercial, hamburger, motion, dance school stuff that also makes sense for the masses... but, are we expected to believe that people like larry tatum, steven labounty, tom kelly, joe palanzo, etc were not taught at the same level of quality as Dr Chapel?  Could it be possible that these men, proteges if you will, were given much of the same instruction, or if different, then at the same level of quality, as each other and Doc alike?
> 
> Maybe these other seniors were taught the 'advanced concepts' not to teach to their kids and weekend warriors, but to hold for those students who earn it... maybe?
> 
> Seniors like Tatum, LaBounty, Kelly, Palanzo are all men with at least 40 years in the martial arts. yes business is business, but i give them all credit that they would have figured it out on their own by now~
> 
> pete.


Good points, but you have to remove LaBounty from the other names. They are newbies in comparison and not considered 'seniors' from where Steve and I sit. I have students who made black before those guys. LaBounty was Tom kelly's teacher who was Huk Planas' teacher, to put things into perspective.

As I've said before, what came after the business was marketed is a different branch of the tree that neither Steve nor I subscribe to, he has a quality product as do I, but he and I don't do the same thing. The level of 'quality' (to use that word) for one branch will not equal another branch higher on the tree. I am only an expert in my teaching but I can tell you this, if its based on motion, and not anatomy than it is the business model.


----------



## jazkiljok

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Revisionist history? Who's version?



exactly. how does this seem to be revisionist history? what specifically in Doc's article are people taking issue with and based on what (hearsay, direct experience, other written accounts)?  

this thing about who of Ed Parker's close friends/students learned seems irrelevant to the articles.

or did i miss something?


----------



## Brother John

lady_kaur said:
			
		

> Not only understanding and ability, but also the interest of the student, and where they want to go with their art. That seems to apply to many different types of art. Studying music at the college level, an instructor has a certain amound of ground that s/he has to cover with their students. That material is also framed by what the student is interested in and how the student interprets what is being taught.
> 
> A great music teacher can produce great performers, but a great music teacher rarely produces identical performers.
> 
> Is it possible that Kenpo is the same way?


I think this is an Excellent point, Lady Kaur!!! It should be considered I think.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Kenpoist

It is always interesting to learn more history on the formulation of Kenpo and SGM Parker&#8217;s teaching philosophy, but I find the article a bit discouraging.  It is true Kenpo was taught on many different levels to many different people, but it seems as though the article let&#8217;s all of us commercial kenpoist&#8217;s know that we are not being taught the &#8220;real&#8221; nuts and bolts of the intended system.  The 3rd,4th, 5th and so on generations must really be getting a watered down version, as we know that when you pass something down the grapevine, a little is lost each time.  Those of us 2nd generation student&#8217;s have to wonder if SGM Parker trusted our instructor&#8217;s enough to give them inside knowledge of the &#8220;real&#8221; kenpo. 
Regardless of the version of kenpo we are now studying, I think the art is still superior to so many being taught around the world.  Are there some loopholes in the commercial curriculum? Sure. 

What is the best way of supplying the Kenpo community with the tools necessary to make Kenpo the premier system once again, since it seems not to be evolving?  With all the infighting and jockeying for positions after SGM Parker passed away &#8211; who are we to believe has the best intentions for the Kenpo community at large?


----------



## Doc

Kenpoist said:
			
		

> It is always interesting to learn more history on the formulation of Kenpo and SGM Parkers teaching philosophy, but I find the article a bit discouraging.  It is true Kenpo was taught on many different levels to many different people, but it seems as though the article lets all of us commercial kenpoists know that we are not being taught the real nuts and bolts of the intended system.  The 3rd,4th, 5th and so on generations must really be getting a watered down version, as we know that when you pass something down the grapevine, a little is lost each time.  Those of us 2nd generation students have to wonder if SGM Parker trusted our instructors enough to give them inside knowledge of the real kenpo.
> Regardless of the version of kenpo we are now studying, I think the art is still superior to so many being taught around the world.  Are there some loopholes in the commercial curriculum? Sure.
> 
> What is the best way of supplying the Kenpo community with the tools necessary to make Kenpo the premier system once again, since it seems not to be evolving?  With all the infighting and jockeying for positions after SGM Parker passed away  who are we to believe has the best intentions for the Kenpo community at large?


All your points are very well stated sir, and I agree with most of your assessements. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways. A commercial product has to be designed for the masses. All ages, genders, and varying levels of commitment. It cannot drive away business/money, or be such that younger people loose interest, or older/more fragile people find it too strenuous. Many compromises must be made, Are the grappling schools packed with children women, and older men? There's a reason. Commercial Kenpo was designed to give you the best overall experience available on a mass scale. That it does very well, but that doesn't make it THE 'shiznit.' It does make it the 'commercial Shizzle.' Or as Ed parker said, "If everybody is doing it, than it can't be the absolute best stuff. - Ed Parker Sr.


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

Doc,

Surely there are other qualified 1st generation instructors out there who have the same understanding of EPAK as you.  Or are you the one left holding the holly grail?  What about Mr Planas, Mr Wedlake, Mr Palanzo, Mr LaBounty ect.  Are all of these men masters in the comercial product only?

Who has the knowledge Doc?  Are you really the only one or are other instructors just more particular (As was Mr Parker from my understanding.) about whom they teach what too?


----------



## Bode

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> Surely there are other qualified 1st generation instructors out there who have the same understanding of EPAK as you.  Or are you the one left holding the holly grail?  What about Mr Planas, Mr Wedlake, Mr Palanzo, Mr LaBounty ect.  Are all of these men masters in the comercial product only?
> 
> Who has the knowledge Doc?  Are you really the only one or are other instructors just more particular (As was Mr Parker from my understanding.) about whom they teach what too?


Hopefully Doc will answer your question, but if he doesn't, and I suspect he may not, then I'll try to answer. 
It is obvious by now that everyone learned something different. Each student had different goals. Some wanted to open studios while others wanted nothing more than the knowledge. The skill set to open a school and keep it running is slightly different than that of being a cop (no eye gouges and all that stuff people like in the studios). 

So who has the knowledge? I think the better question to ask is, "Where can I get the knowledge?" 
Some of the best instructors around don't make a dime off of their students. Check with these instructors first. The ones who teach out of their garage. The ones who are retired from their primary source of income and don't really need the school. The one who has fewer students. 

This is NOT to say that people with students are incapable of teaching at a higher level. Simply that when teaching to the masses you must cater to the average skill level. Work too fast or too detailed and people give up because they feel they are not actually retaining anything. Work too slow and attempt to perfect someones skill and people leave out of boredome. "You made me do the same form three hundred times".... This is what Doc means by commercial kenpo. Everyone takes it as an insult, but it's not. The people running these business' are genius. They make a living off of Kenpo. That's not easy.

For fun I can tell you who I have heard Doc mention as respecting in the martial arts world. 
Cliff Stewart - Pentjak Silat. He is a body guard and boy does he have stories.
Lee Wedlake, Steve Labounty, Steve Herring, Kevin Mills, and going way back, Jimmy Woo, Ark Wong, Si Il Choi (Spelling). 

That is not by any means a complete list. Only the ones I remember hearing him mention.


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

I completely agree with the list that you gave and there are many others out there that you did not mention.  My point in asking the obsurde is just that obsurde.  Anyone who has been around EPAK or any other combative art out there for any time can and should be able to tell you were the knowledge is and how to get it.  

Everyone is talking about who knows what and what is thier rank is and at what time and what there rank should be (blah blah blah).  Give me a break!  No wonder EPAK is in the shape it is in.  To much yackin and not enough smakin.  Shut up and train is what I say.  

We all know who the good instructors out there are and if your with someone who you don't think has the knowledge then find someone who does and train under them.

Doc even said it himself.  It is easy to get caught up in the mucky muck of it all.  We all know that there or many people out there with strips and can't back it up.  Man how pathetic is that!

There are those of us out here not only doing their very best to be true to EPAK but also trying their hardest to be true to themselves and at the end of the day that is what counts.  to know.


Full Salute


----------



## hongkongfooey

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> Surely there are other qualified 1st generation instructors out there who have the same understanding of EPAK as you.  Or are you the one left holding the holly grail?  What about Mr Planas, Mr Wedlake, Mr Palanzo, Mr LaBounty ect.  Are all of these men masters in the comercial product only?
> 
> Who has the knowledge Doc?  Are you really the only one or are other instructors just more particular (As was Mr Parker from my understanding.) about whom they teach what too?



I wouldn't say they were all taught the commercial product, but I will bet you that they all teach the same material differently. I remember that reading that Ed Parker would teach some people but never really show them anything. The man wasn't dumb. He knew that there were people trying to take advantage of him.


----------



## Doc

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Doc,
> Surely there are other qualified 1st generation instructors out there who have the same understanding of EPAK as you.


Honestly, I really don't know. I do know my understanding is unique to me and the teaching I received in terms of knowledge and direction.


> Or are you the one left holding the holly grail?


I seriously doubt that. In fact when Mr. Parker passed on, I thought many were doing as I was. It took me by surprize when many didn't approach things the way I was taught. Mr. Parker didn't suggest it was unique beyond the law enforcement mandates or the Ark Wong connection we worked on. He did however, as Edmund Jr. put it, "Keep me on my own little island." I seriously doubt I was the only one. I get a general sense that those running a business were taught only what was needed. The business is wholly incompatible with the type of material I teach. You can't teach both. They are diametrically opposed to each other. You can't 'polish' up the business version. You have to tear it down and rebuild it from scratch.


> What about Mr Planas, Mr Wedlake, Mr Palanzo, ...


All capable men for sure, however all came at the beginning or during the commercial motion based product. Richard (and Tom Kelly) spent a great deal of time assisting Mr. Parker in putting it together, however ...


> Mr LaBounty ect.  Are all of these men masters in the comercial product only?


Mr. LaBounty predates the commercial product as I do, and has never subscribed to it. Does he do what I do? No. Does he do motion kenpo? No. He has continued to educate himself, and does some tremendous things in the arts, and always has. They don't come any better or classier. Whereas the others describe who and what they are by what they teach and expound. All intelligent and capable, but beyond what is generally known, who is to say what they do or do not know? Not Me. I only know from their writings, teachings, and students they appear to be based in the motion product.


> Who has the knowledge Doc?


You do sir. Everyone has some, but it does have to be put in context to be understood. Then there is the stuff you don't know that needs to be added to it, and only a knowledgeable teacher can do that.


> Are you really the only one or are other instructors just more particular (As was Mr Parker from my understanding.) about whom they teach what too?


That sir is an excellent question, and I can assure you I am not alone. Even if that was the intent, it is not likely. However, those who are and have been in the business of kenpo in many cases are just that. In business. Those who were in business were taught business kenpo to be successful. If they were financially successful, so was Mr. Parker. When Mr. Parker visted my clubs/schools, he didn't do things I'd seen him do in seminars and demos with others. He went in a different direction, and sometimes even different from what he would share with me privately. More particular? I bet quietly there are a lot of unassuming Parker guys out there teaching like Rich Hale in his school garage, or Steve Hearring, with a small but loyal following of really good students. I bet you dollars to donuts, that's where the really good stuff is. 

"Green is the universal solvent, it can delute anything." - Ed Parker Sr.


----------



## IWishToLearn

Aaaaannything Dr. Chapel?

I have some rust on my brake shoes that I've been looking everywhere for a solution to its removal. 

*Ducks and runs away.*


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

Doc,

I wasn't really trying to put your feet to the fire but rather make a point to the board (Please see my last post.).  But as always you come through with high flying colors even when the difficult thoughts and ideas are proposed.  I really appreciated your post on rank and man what a breath of fresh air.  Hell, I don't even wear the belt that I toolk so much pride in at one time any longer. I guess I have just become a  t shirt and sweat pants king of guy.

Like you said :  It is out there and those who really want it will find it by any means nessary.


----------



## Doc

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> I wasn't really trying to put your feet to the fire but rather make a point to the board (Please see my last post.).  But as always you come through with high flying colors even when the difficult thoughts and ideas are proposed.  I really appreciated your post on rank and man what a breath of fresh air.  Hell, I don't even wear the belt that I toolk so much pride in at one time any longer. I guess I have just become a  t shirt and sweat pants king of guy.
> 
> Like you said :  It is out there and those who really want it will find it by any means nessary.


Well you know, when you take the ego out (I'm too old), and you aren't recruiting or selling (asking for money) it's pretty easy to be honest. Honest!  I just consider myself to be very 'lucky,' and Brother John reminded me of that recently and made me think. People would do anything to be in Mr. Parker's company. And yet, here I was a poor young black kid who just happened to go to school with a Chinese Grandmasters nephew (Douglas Wong), just happened to meet  Ed Parker at a local gathering, just happened that he liked me and we became friends, just happened he decided to teach me, just happened that he never charged me because I couldn't afford it anyway, it just happened that I came along at the right time, it just happened I went into law enforcement which he loved, just happened I lived close enough so we saw each other regularly, just happened we liked the same things like movies, sweet potato pie, and root beer, it just happened, .... well you get the idea. When you consider everything and all the truly great martial artists that touched my life, I was and am one very 'lucky' guy who had one very special "Dad," "uncle," "Big Brother," "Best Friend," "martial arts mentor." Would you believe when I go into Chinatown's Won Kok today, the waiters call me "sifu?" I must be dreaming.


----------



## Jagdish

Doc said:
			
		

> Well you know, when you take the ego out (I'm too old), and you aren't recruiting or selling (asking for money) it's pretty easy to be honest. Honest!  I just consider myself to be very 'lucky,' and Brother John reminded me of that recently and made me think. People would do anything to be in Mr. Parker's company. And yet, here I was a poor young black kid who just happened to go to school with a Chinese Grandmasters nephew (Douglas Wong), just happened to meet Ed Parker at a local gathering, just happened that he liked me and we became friends, just happened he decided to teach me, just happened that he never charged me because I couldn't afford it anyway, it just happened that I came along at the right time, it just happened I went into law enforcement which he loved, just happened I lived close enough so we saw each other regularly, just happened we liked the same things like movies, sweet potato pie, and root beer, it just happened, .... well you get the idea. When you consider everything and all the truly great martial artists that touched my life, I was and am one very 'lucky' guy who had one very special "Dad," "uncle," "Big Brother," "Best Friend," "martial arts mentor." Would you believe when I go into Chinatown's Won Kok today, the waiters call me "sifu?" I must be dreaming.


 

Sir:

I  would like to ask somethings from a different perspective:

Do you revert to any of your friends in Martial arts when you have some doubt about something?

What was your stronger points in martial arts when you met Mr.Parker?

Yours,

Jagdish


----------



## Seabrook

Doc said:
			
		

> Honestly, I really don't know. I do know my understanding is unique to me and the teaching I received in terms of knowledge and direction.
> 
> I seriously doubt that. In fact when Mr. Parker passed on, I thought many were doing as I was. It took me by surprize when many didn't approach things the way I was taught. Mr. Parker didn't suggest it was unique beyond the law enforcement mandates or the Ark Wong connection we worked on. He did however, as Edmund Jr. put it, "Keep me on my own little island." I seriously doubt I was the only one. I get a general sense that those running a business were taught only what was needed. The business is wholly incompatible with the type of material I teach. You can't teach both. They are diametrically opposed to each other. You can't 'polish' up the business version. You have to tear it down and rebuild it from scratch.
> 
> All capable men for sure, however all came at the beginning or during the commercial motion based product. Richard (and Tom Kelly) spent a great deal of time assisting Mr. Parker in putting it together, however ...
> 
> Mr. LaBounty predates the commercial product as I do, and has never subscribed to it. Does he do what I do? No. Does he do motion kenpo? No. He has continued to educate himself, and does some tremendous things in the arts, and always has. They don't come any better or classier. Whereas the others describe who and what they are by what they teach and expound. All intelligent and capable, but beyond what is generally known, who is to say what they do or do not know? Not Me. I only know from their writings, teachings, and students they appear to be based in the motion product.
> 
> You do sir. Everyone has some, but it does have to be put in context to be understood. Then there is the stuff you don't know that needs to be added to it, and only a knowledgeable teacher can do that.
> 
> That sir is an excellent question, and I can assure you I am not alone. Even if that was the intent, it is not likely. However, those who are and have been in the business of kenpo in many cases are just that. In business. Those who were in business were taught business kenpo to be successful. If they were financially successful, so was Mr. Parker. When Mr. Parker visted my clubs/schools, he didn't do things I'd seen him do in seminars and demos with others. He went in a different direction, and sometimes even different from what he would share with me privately. More particular? I bet quietly there are a lot of unassuming Parker guys out there teaching like Rich Hale in his school garage, or Steve Hearring, with a small but loyal following of really good students. I bet you dollars to donuts, that's where the really good stuff is.
> 
> "Green is the universal solvent, it can delute anything." - Ed Parker Sr.


 
Doc,

I respect your opinions but I have to ask:

What REALLY IS "motion kenpo" and what makes it so inferior to what you are doing? Why are guys like Tatum, Planas, and Palanzo doing things that you view as inferior? And if I took a private lesson from each one of them, could they teach me the same Kenpo that you teach?

BTW - I limit my school to a maximum of 50 students, teach out of my garage 2 days per week, and run a fighting class out of a big club every Thursday night.


----------



## Doc

Jagdish said:
			
		

> Sir:
> 
> I  would like to ask somethings from a different perspective:
> 
> Do you revert to any of your friends in Martial arts when you have some doubt about something?


I have many friends from various disciplines, but most of my interactions with them is physical only to make a point, but primarily philosophical because they have found no flaws in my physical teachings. One of the things we do in our "lab" is physically challenge everything. I'm 'lucky' (there's that word again) to have some of the most intelligent and highly educated friends, students and associates around. They run the gammut from hard core military officers/government agents/special forces types to street cops, to lawyers, to doctors, and computer geeks who work on top secret govenment contracts and aerospace projects. Not one of these people will allow me any 'slack' in my teaching, and everyone is encouraged to always challenge me physically on any aspect they feel is flawed or will not work. They hammer me with questions and demand hard answers.


> What was your stronger points in martial arts when you met Mr.Parker?


Don't know, never thought about it. From what perspective are you speaking?


----------



## Doc

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> I respect your opinions but I have to ask:
> 
> What REALLY IS "motion kenpo" and what makes it so inferior to what you are doing? Why are guys like Tatum, Planas, and Palanzo doing things that you view as inferior?


"motion Kenpo" is simply Ed Parker's business model that he made the most popular form of Kenpo in the world for obvious reasons, that is based conceptually on the understanding of abstract "motion." However, I never use the word "inferior" and neither did Ed Parker. The level of this particular art is predicated on the skill and knowledge of its teacher, however it also does have a built in functional ceiling because of the nature of its design. There is a contridiction between accomodating the maximum number of people of all ages and genders, and teaching the intracacies of an academic based physical science. 

Anyone teaching from this model will have limitations because of very significant knowledge that is not contained therein. Everyone knows this and has made a decision as to what they want to teach.

Visitors acknowledge rather quickly the depth of the available information goes well beyond anything thay have seen or felt, short of the Old Man himself. Some post here and will probably give their experiences. Some have come from other 1st generation Parker kenpo as well. "A guy who hand makes anything, should be better than a guy on an assembly line." - Ed Parker Sr.


> And if I took a private lesson from each one of them, could they teach me the same Kenpo that you teach?


In my opinion, no. They were 'born' into motion kenpo, so that is their perspective. They have spent their lives making a living teaching, promoting, and perfecting the particular flavor of kenpo they know. 

The myth is that some information has been 'left out' of motion kenpo, and therefore someone can teach it on many levels at the same time. Although in some ways this is true, the reality is that the bulk of the information was never there by design. This means that the 'basics' could be 'polished' and adjusted, but much of the applications would have to change in some instances, and completely eliminated in others.


> BTW - I limit my school to a maximum of 50 students, teach out of my garage 2 days per week, and run a fighting class out of a big club every Thursday night.


Then you are not commercial, but you are teaching from the commercial syllabus. Some very good students can come out of that arrangement. You sir, are "into the art" first and are doing in many ways what I was doing when I met Mr. Parker, working for parks & rec and youth services. I had always taught in clubs and youth programs. When I went into law enforcement I began teaching credit and non-credit courses at colleges and universities much like Mr. Parker. I have never owned a 'business' teaching the art. It allows me the freedom to concentrate on the art, and to teach studuents of my own choosing.


----------



## Ray

Doc said:
			
		

> "A guy who hand makes anything, should be better than a guy on an assembly line." - Ed Parker Sr.


Odd, isn't it that in our quest to make standardized interchangable components we have lost the craftsmanship of the past.  The skills required by the worker are less than what the craftsman has but the product/process is consistant and repeatable.  Whereas, the craftsmen may produce "expressive"  inconsistancies between products, the craftsman requires more skills and his products are just as good (not always interchangable).

Today we can purchase nails, cheaply and in large quantity made by machinery with little human intervention.  In the past, a smith could support himself by making nails by hand.

I suppose that Kenpo shouldn't be our product, it should be our craft.


----------



## Doc

Ray said:
			
		

> I suppose that Kenpo shouldn't be our product, it should be our craft.


Whoa, I like that. Kenpo for me is definitely a craft. For some it is a product, and I think the difference between the two is obvious upon comparison.


----------



## Flying Crane

Doc said:
			
		

> Whoa, I like that. Kenpo for me is definitely a craft. For some it is a product, and I think the difference between the two is obvious upon comparison.


 
Yes, amen to that!


----------



## Jagdish

Doc said:
			
		

> Don't know, never thought about it. From what perspective are you speaking?


 
What Mr.Parker saw in you (example: analitical mind, capacity to learn easily, good person, combat abilities,etc.)

Do you have friends who practice chinese martial arts who have indepth knowlege in the same? If so, then is there a reciprocal understanding of the arts?

Yours,

Jagdish


----------



## Doc

Jagdish said:
			
		

> What Mr.Parker saw in you (example: analitical mind, capacity to learn easily, good person, combat abilities,etc.)


Obviously that is a highly personal question from the Parker perspective that presupposes I knew a lot about how he felt when we met. I didn't at the time. All I knew is he was the nicest guy, who was warm, open, and very giving to me from the beginning.

Much later in our relationship he would say things like, "You're very sharp." or "I like the way you think." Things like that. I remember one time I was teaching a class, and my students were just not getting what I was teaching. I was really frustrated. Mr. Parker pulled me aside later and admonished me for being so hard on them. He said, "Ron you have a gift. You can see things and analyze them in your head that most can't do in real life. You must reconize this and work on being a better teacher so you can communicate your ides to your students better. They are not bad students, you just need to be a better teacher." I took that to heart.


> Do you have friends who practice chinese martial arts who have indepth knowlege in the same? If so, then is there a reciprocal understanding of the arts?
> Yours,
> Jagdish


I have many old friends in the Chinese Arts. My oldest is Grandmaster Douglas Wong. I go pretty far back with his wife Carrie Ogawa, Grandmaster Doo Wei, Dr. Carl Totten, Terrence (Terry) Dunn, Sam Spain, and others off the top of my head. Life doesn't allow us to get together anymore but I stay in touch with most. Do we train together? No, not since I divoted my time exclusively to the Ed Parker works.


----------



## IWishToLearn

Where be part 3?


----------



## Doc

Doc said:
			
		

> Obviously that is a highly personal question from the Parker perspective that presupposes I knew a lot about how he felt when we met. I didn't at the time. All I knew is he was the nicest guy, who was warm, open, and very giving to me from the beginning.
> 
> Much later in our relationship he would say things like, "You're very sharp." or "I like the way you think." Things like that. I remember one time I was teaching a class, and my students were just not getting what I was teaching. I was really frustrated. Mr. Parker pulled me aside later and admonished me for being so hard on them. He said, "Ron you have a gift. You can see things and analyze them in your head that most can't do in real life. You must reconize this and work on being a better teacher so you can communicate your ides to your students better. They are not bad students, you just need to be a better teacher." I took that to heart.
> 
> I have many old friends in the Chinese Arts. My oldest is Grandmaster Douglas Wong. I go pretty far back with his wife Carrie Ogawa, Grandmaster Doo Wei, Dr. Carl Totten, Terrence (Terry) Dunn, Sam Spain, and others off the top of my head. Life doesn't allow us to get together anymore but I stay in touch with most. Do we train together? No, not since I divoted my time exclusively to the Ed Parker works.


How quickly the ironies of life intrude on this mundane existence as we bicker over unimportant things. I spoke with Doug Wong Friday evening planning a get to gether for some of the old gang. Sam Spain was one of the guys who, like myself allowed his work to keep him from a lot of socializing. (He was an investigator and worked the Arson Unit for LA Fire Dept.) I hadn't spoke with him in a decade, and during my conversation with Doug, he informed me Sam Spain, passed away last Monday. Call your friends.


----------



## IWishToLearn

*picks up a rock* Hm...not here...

*looks behind cabinet door* Hrm...not here either...

*looks behind cereal boxes* Dang. Not here either!

~!!!~

*Heads to local Chinese restaurant in search of Dr. Chapel and part 3!*


----------



## Doc

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> *picks up a rock* Hm...not here...
> 
> *looks behind cabinet door* Hrm...not here either...
> 
> *looks behind cereal boxes* Dang. Not here either!
> 
> ~!!!~
> 
> *Heads to local Chinese restaurant in search of Dr. Chapel and part 3!*


Part three is graphic intensive and unsuitable for posting, and the text alone would be questionable. I'll look at it.


----------



## Kalicombat

I have a question that I am sure some people wil be able to answer, and others will find offensive. Doc, I am sure you were around these times, and will have some insight to what I am asking. Saying that before I ask the question, I mean no disrespect to any of the our Kenpo seniors, but this question deals strictly with the commercial kenpo issue, so many seem to deny.

The way it has worked for me in all the martial arts I have been involved in since I was 9 years old, 31 years ago, JOE STUDENT, starts attending karate class, works out and attends class, gives his or her all, and puts in the blood, sweat, and tears to make rank. Eventually for some, that time, effort, advancement, etc... all lead to Joe Student opening a school, moving the art forward, and the cycle begins again. 

As I understand it, when SGM Parker decided to open his system up for franchises, he started somekind of instructor program. The candidates in this new program were not traditional Joe Student types, but rather came to the IKKA from somewhere else, or not, and simply started learning to be an instructor. Some, not all,  put alot less time in the IKKA/EPAK material, and moved on to open a "commercial" school teaching the curriculum. They did not spend the average amount of time, for whatever that was back then, to achieve their blackbelts, but were 'fast-tracked' along, in an attempt to get the kenpo ball rolling in their location.  Also as I understand it, the legendary "BIG RED" and other resources were developed for these newbies with the capitol to open their own school. Am I way off base here, or is this the way things progressed? All that being said, the legendary friday night blackbelt classes were more for the Joe Average students that started as ham and eggers and worked through the system, rather then the instructor candidates that wanted to open their new schools and had the finances to do so.

Am I in the ball park, or was this information I recieved complete BS?

Thanks In Advance,
Gary Catherman


----------



## Bode

As far as I remember Doc explaining it to me, you are correct. I am sure Doc will chime in, but yes, there were people, especially in the early days, who received their black belts in a year.


----------



## Doc

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> I have a question that I am sure some people wil be able to answer, and others will find offensive. Doc, I am sure you were around these times, and will have some insight to what I am asking. Saying that before I ask the question, I mean no disrespect to any of the our Kenpo seniors, but this question deals strictly with the commercial kenpo issue, so many seem to deny.
> 
> The way it has worked for me in all the martial arts I have been involved in since I was 9 years old, 31 years ago, JOE STUDENT, starts attending karate class, works out and attends class, gives his or her all, and puts in the blood, sweat, and tears to make rank. Eventually for some, that time, effort, advancement, etc... all lead to Joe Student opening a school, moving the art forward, and the cycle begins again.
> 
> As I understand it, when SGM Parker decided to open his system up for franchises, he started somekind of instructor program. The candidates in this new program were not traditional Joe Student types, but rather came to the IKKA from somewhere else, or not, and simply started learning to be an instructor. Some, not all,  put alot less time in the IKKA/EPAK material, and moved on to open a "commercial" school teaching the curriculum. They did not spend the average amount of time, for whatever that was back then, to achieve their blackbelts, but were 'fast-tracked' along, in an attempt to get the kenpo ball rolling in their location.  Also as I understand it, the legendary "BIG RED" and other resources were developed for these newbies with the capitol to open their own school. Am I way off base here, or is this the way things progressed? All that being said, the legendary friday night blackbelt classes were more for the Joe Average students that started as ham and eggers and worked through the system, rather then the instructor candidates that wanted to open their new schools and had the finances to do so.
> 
> Am I in the ball park, or was this information I recieved complete BS?
> 
> Thanks In Advance,
> Gary Catherman


No sir you're correct. When Parker made a decision to commercialize his "American Kenpo," he created "Kenpo-Karate" as a franchise business model based on a dance school business plan. And as such he followed the that successful business plan to the letter. To that end he recruited people who had some type of experience, expertise, and/or money that would support the business plan in some manner. Some had martial arts experience, others had business experience, others just had money but if you wanted in, you had to bring something to the table. 

I've seen the same in arts like "Krav Maga" who have done the same with teachers of diverse martial arts background, now teaching the brand "Krav Maga." The wide diversity of their curriculum from location to location should sound pretty familiar. No different than many of the "kenpo/kempo' off shoot commercial brands whose focus is on the business, and not the art or student.

As for the Friday Night Sessions, it varied. In the beginning it was the hard core who just beat the crap out of each other. Later it was a mixture of the commercial newbies, with a sprinkle of the old timers. These classes kept getting smaller and smaller until ultimately Ed Parker showed up one Friday and no one was there, and no one called. He vowed when that happened he would never teach that class again, and he never did.

Some might recall an ad that Ed Parker ran frequently in the newspapers of the time. "Karate Instructors Wanted - no experience necessary!" Getting a black belt in less than a year was not unusual, and most came in many cases, with one from somewhere else. Most have rank in "Kenpo-Karate," and not "American Kenpo." Most have assumed they are both the same, but they are not. American Kenpo was never completely codified, but set aside while he codified the off shoot diversion "Kenpo-Karate" to sell. Therefore the term EPAK, or "Ed Parker's American Kenpo" is incorrect and is not what Parker himself called it.


----------



## hongkongfooey

Doc,

When did Ed Parker introduce the current requirements that are listed in Infinite Insights Vol. 5? What about the current forms and sets? In Lee Wedlake's book Kenpo Karate 201, he states the there were originally just short forms 1-3, long forms 4-6, Star Block, Finger, Two Man, Kicking, and coordination sets. The extensions were limited to 32 techniques in the orange-green level. Who created the others sets like 

Striking Set 1 & 2
Kicking Set 2
Coordination Set 2
Finger Set 2
Stance Set 1 & 2
Staff Set
Form 7 & 8

I had also read online that Mr. Parker had allowed these new sets to be taught, but did not require others to do so. Oh something else, too.

I have read that when the 24 technique system was created from the 32 technique system, there were not enought techniques to fill up the new belt levels and techniques were pulled from the forms in order to add some meat to the system. Where as in the 32 techniques system, one would have all of the material when they reached 1st black. 

I am probably wrong on much that I have written, but I would love to have your insight on this, since you were there when it all unfurled.

Talk to you later, off to class.
Dave
AKA, HKF


----------



## Doc

> When did Ed Parker introduce the current requirements that are listed in Infinite Insights Vol. 5?



In the early seventies, Ed Parker and I had a conversation regarding the material regarding several suggestions from multiple sources including myself.

1) There was a lack of upper division material. - The highest level written material was what was called Green/Orange, and was taught for the first level of brown belt. This material was actually the extensions portion of the Orange Belt techniques that numbered 32.

2)  The charts contained too much material and students were dropping out before their first promotion to Orange Belt.- There were 32 techniques per level but there were only 4 charts that began with Orange Belt, through to the Green/Brown.

3)  The schools were being swamped by children who were having difficulty learning the material, but began to be the bulk of the revenue in the schools and therefore couldnt be ignored.



> What about the current forms and sets? In Lee Wedlake's book Kenpo Karate 201, he states the there were originally just short forms 1-3, long forms 4-6, Star Block, Finger, Two Man, Kicking, and coordination sets.



Although Lee is correct, the time lines are a bit extended/overlapped and depending on where you were with Mr. Parker, all of them did not exist at the same time, nor were they mutually exclusive of each other.

The timeline inclusion of the Two man Set, should also necessitate the Tiger & Crane form and both, essentially have the same origin, and were both dropped at the same time. Also around that time, forms stopped at Long 4, and the other Long Forms came later.



> The extensions were limited to 32 techniques in the orange-green level. Who created the others sets like
> 
> Striking Set 1 & 2
> Kicking Set 2
> Coordination Set 2
> Finger Set 2
> Stance Set 1 & 2



Although there was minor input from various sources, and sometimes major refinements by Mr. Parker himself, these sets were essentially created by Jim Mitchell.



> Staff Set


Originally based from Ark Wong, major refinements were made by Chuck Sullivan and Ed Parker. However, Ed Parker himself always credited Chuck Sullivan with first learning, and then refining the Staff Set.



> Form 7 & 8


Under pressure from students to include weapons in their forms for the new weapons divisions in competition, Ed Parker created both of these forms. Originally, Form 7 was known as Club Set, and Form 8 went from Knife Set to Form 7 to finally Form 8.



> I had also read online that Mr. Parker had allowed these new sets to be taught, but did not require others to do so. Oh something else, too.


Contrary to popular belief, Ed Parker never actually required anything of school owners. The curriculum outlined in the Big Red Studio owners guide, were merely suggestions. Many who migrated from other styles and systems, found much of the material surrounding forms and sets unacceptable, and chose to focus on only the techniques they liked as the Tailoring concept promoted by Mr. Parker allowed. Mr. Parker felt the instructor was responsible for their students skills and knowledge, and therefore if the teacher wanted his student promoted, Parker never failed anyone. I saw a black belt make 3rd, who couldn't remember Short 2 and that was the only thing he was asked to do.



> I have read that when the 24-technique system was created from the 32-technique system, there were not enough techniques to fill up the new belt levels and techniques were pulled from the forms in order to add some meat to the system. Where as in the 32 techniques system, one would have all of the material when they reached 1st black.


Not completely true. As previously stated, the original commercial material never went to black. After making brown, students were required to teach to supplement the school business to make black.

The original commercial material was approximately 128 techniques plus quite a few that were off shoot variations that were not written down. When the original 10 Yellow Belt were added later, it brought the number to approximately a codified 138 of which 32 were then Orange extensions. Also some of the unwritten techniques were then added.

Techniques were indeed created to flesh out the material, but not because of the shift to a 24 chart system, but essentially because it had never been completed previously and it only became a necessity for the sake of completing the Business Model Guidelines. To that end, Jim Mitchell completed the extensions as well when the shift was made.

There has always been a great amount of discussion over the different number of techniques in the charts. The only real difference is when you learned something. Under the 32 you would learn Clutching Feathers as the first technique. Under the 24 you would learn Delayed Sword first and not get to Clutching Feathers until Orange.

It is also important to note Ed Parker never intended to stop at the 24 chart. The suggestion was made by myself and others to simply cut the charts in half to 16 from the 32. Ed Parker agreed, but said Well go 24 first as a transition to allow school owners to adjust and to prevent a rash of quick promotions that would be detrimental to the business.


----------



## hongkongfooey

Thanks, Doc. It seems that there is a lot of dis-information out there when it comes to Kenpo. I enjoy hearing about the early with Mr. Parker days from those that were there. I just wish I could have had the chance to meet the man myself.

Later.

Dave


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:
			
		

> In the early seventies, Ed Parker and I had a conversation regarding the material regarding several suggestions from multiple sources including myself.
> 
> 1) There was a lack of upper division material. - The highest level written material was what was called Green/Orange, and was taught for the first level of brown belt. This material was actually the extensions portion of the Orange Belt techniques that numbered 32.
> 
> 2) The charts contained too much material and students were dropping out before their first promotion to Orange Belt.- There were 32 techniques per level but there were only 4 charts that began with Orange Belt, through to the Green/Brown.
> 
> 3) The schools were being swamped by children who were having difficulty learning the material, but began to be the bulk of the revenue in the schools and therefore couldnt be ignored.
> 
> 
> 
> Although Lee is correct, the time lines are a bit extended/overlapped and depending on where you were with Mr. Parker, all of them did not exist at the same time, nor were they mutually exclusive of each other.
> 
> The timeline inclusion of the Two man Set, should also necessitate the Tiger & Crane form and both, essentially have the same origin, and were both dropped at the same time. Also around that time, forms stopped at Long 4, and the other Long Forms came later.
> 
> 
> 
> Although there was minor input from various sources, and sometimes major refinements by Mr. Parker himself, these sets were essentially created by Jim Mitchell.
> 
> 
> Originally based from Ark Wong, major refinements were made by Chuck Sullivan and Ed Parker. However, Ed Parker himself always credited Chuck Sullivan with first learning, and then refining the Staff Set.
> 
> 
> Under pressure from students to include weapons in their forms for the new weapons divisions in competition, Ed Parker created both of these forms. Originally, Form 7 was known as Club Set, and Form 8 went from Knife Set to Form 7 to finally Form 8.
> 
> 
> Contrary to popular belief, Ed Parker never actually required anything of school owners. The curriculum outlined in the Big Red Studio owners guide, were merely suggestions. Many who migrated from other styles and systems, found much of the material surrounding forms and sets unacceptable, and chose to focus on only the techniques they liked as the Tailoring concept promoted by Mr. Parker allowed. Mr. Parker felt the instructor was responsible for their students skills and knowledge, and therefore if the teacher wanted his student promoted, Parker never failed anyone. I saw a black belt make 3rd, who couldn't remember Short 2 and that was the only thing he was asked to do.
> 
> 
> Not completely true. As previously stated, the original commercial material never went to black. After making brown, students were required to teach to supplement the school business to make black.
> 
> The original commercial material was approximately 128 techniques plus quite a few that were off shoot variations that were not written down. When the original 10 Yellow Belt were added later, it brought the number to approximately a codified 138 of which 32 were then Orange extensions. Also some of the unwritten techniques were then added.
> 
> Techniques were indeed created to flesh out the material, but not because of the shift to a 24 chart system, but essentially because it had never been completed previously and it only became a necessity for the sake of completing the Business Model Guidelines. To that end, Jim Mitchell completed the extensions as well when the shift was made.
> 
> There has always been a great amount of discussion over the different number of techniques in the charts. The only real difference is when you learned something. Under the 32 you would learn Clutching Feathers as the first technique. Under the 24 you would learn Delayed Sword first and not get to Clutching Feathers until Orange.
> 
> It is also important to note Ed Parker never intended to stop at the 24 chart. The suggestion was made by myself and others to simply cut the charts in half to 16 from the 32. Ed Parker agreed, but said Well go 24 first as a transition to allow school owners to adjust and to prevent a rash of quick promotions that would be detrimental to the business.



:supcool:


----------



## Ray

Doc said:
			
		

> Mr. Parker felt the instructor was responsible for their students skills and knowledge, and therefore if the teacher wanted his student promoted, Parker never failed anyone. I saw a black belt make 3rd, who couldn't remember Short 2 and that was the only thing he was asked to do.


Did Mr. Parker have higher expectations of his personal students?  Without naming names did he ever flunk anyone -- or did his students just understand his expectations and conform?



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> It is also important to note Ed Parker never intended to stop at the 24 chart. The suggestion was made by myself and others to simply cut the charts in half to 16 from the 32. Ed Parker agreed, but said Well go 24 first as a transition to allow school owners to adjust and to prevent a rash of quick promotions that would be detrimental to the business.


That brings a question to mind: Since you don't teach "motion" kenpo, how many techniques make up your Kenpo cirriculum?


----------



## Doc

Ray said:
			
		

> Did Mr. Parker have higher expectations of his personal students?  Without naming names did he ever flunk anyone -- or did his students just understand his expectations and conform?


That's a very complicated answer for many reasons. Everyone that ever took a lesson with Mr. Parker claims him on some level. The question is, did he claim them? Does the fact that he awarded you a diploma mean he had different expectations from others he taught? I know of at least one former black belt student of Parker who was kicked out of the IKKA, and essentially self-promoted from 4th to 10th as Parker's successor. What does that mean? How about 'when' a person was his student? Clearly the expectaton he had of a James Ibrao who made black in 9 months were different from students that cam later. How about how much Mr. Parker charged them, or what if he never charged them? Some were from great distances that he didn't see often, others he saw all the time. Then what about the difference between students who ran Kenpo Businesses that generated revenue for him, from those who had no school or students at all. I had a school and students but, taught at schools and colleges since I was 15. Did that make a difference?

What I can address is his expectations of me which I thought were very high. He entrusted me to not only understand what he was doing, but to codify his progress as he experimented and worked out what he wanted. He was so immersed in the business of Kenpo, it detracted from his personal Kenpo art and aspirations, that I personally think would have eventually led back to a larger dissemination of information. Otherwise, why would he be so intent on me writing everything down? Anyway he expected a lot of me, and we worked constantly because I only lived 15/20 minutes from his home. He was at my school(s) and house constantly teaching and only he and I tested my students. And the best part, he never charged me a penny. 


> That brings a question to mind: Since you don't teach "motion" kenpo, how many techniques make up your Kenpo cirriculum?


Don't know. Still working on it. I got lots of notes. Safe to say though, more than the motion variety.


----------

