# The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism



## Makalakumu (Apr 18, 2013)

Very interesting stuff once you start to dissect the statistics.








> Are the Scandinavian countries really examples of successful socialism? Stefan Molyneux, Host of Freedomain Radio, dissects the myth of productive state power.
> 
> Freedomain Radio is the largest and most popular philosophy show on the web - http://www.freedomainradio.com
> 
> Sources: http://www.fdrurl.com/scan_myth


----------



## Cirdan (Apr 18, 2013)

Dang, finally exposed as the commie hellholes we are


----------



## Makalakumu (Apr 18, 2013)

Cirdan said:


> Dang, finally exposed as the commie hellholes we are



Actually, the presentation was more positive than that. Scandinavia has a degree of peace and economic freedom that is very unsocialist and this offsets a lot of the bad effects caused by their high taxes and wellfare programs. Yet, in the end, these programs have the same effect that all big government has. Socialist scandinavia still carries high public debt and at keeps getting higher. It's a party on other people's money that won't last forever. 

On the plus side, when the unsustainability of socialist policy finally wrecks the economy, the economic freedom and peace that these countries enjoy should turn around the mess. quickly.


----------



## K-man (Apr 18, 2013)

I'm sorry to rain on the parade but, what a crock of s#1t. I don't know why he is rounding on Scandinavia to show how great the US is and how these Socialist economies don't measure up. His 'facts' are really strange. The insinuation is that even life expectancy goes down with a socialist system.  I'm not sure if he is just straight out wrong because Scandinavian life expectancy is up there with the best, or whether he is saying that they aren't really socialist because their life expectancy is high.

Then he talks about public debt. As a percentage of GDP they are far lower than the US.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

Standard of living is harder to quantify but once again the Scandinavian counties rank at the top of the scale. He says that they are saving money because their defence sending is much lower than the US, but so is every other country in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

Then he compares incomes. Well the US has more dollars per capita than anyone. It helps to own the printing press because that is where the US dollars are coming from.  And, then he says that Scandinavians have a high standard of living because they are borrowing money to fund their lifestyle.  Well guys, I have some real bad news ....   http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

He looks at net worth. By the time you take $53K of the $100K that he says you are worth you are left with $47K. About the same as elsewhere.  

What he hasn't addressed is the problem of the US economy and its adverse effect on the rest of the world.   :asian:


----------



## Makalakumu (Apr 18, 2013)

This person has an even worse analysis of the US economy, so don't get to upset. The main difference, I think, is in the US pursuit of Empire. All of the freedom we have is essentially blasted away by our military industrial complex. 

That said, Australian housing is in a bubble and it will pop. The whole world is in a dollar bubble as long as our Fed keeps printing. That monster is eventually going to pop.


----------



## K-man (Apr 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> That said, _*Australian housing is in a bubble and it will pop*_. The whole world is in a dollar bubble as long as our Fed keeps printing. That monster is eventually going to pop.


As far as the Australian housing market is concerned it has been slow or has gone a little bit back over the pat five years. Now it is starting to grow again thanks to lower interest rates and less pessermism. Your assertion that the Australian housing situation is in a bubble that will pop is purely your opinion, and IMHO an uninformed one at that. There are many reasons the Australian market has been steady, not the least being that money is only lent to those with the capacity to service the debt, unlike the US banks that gave money to anyone, then sold the mortgages, with AAA rating, to others who ended up carrying the can when the debtors could not pay. 

As to your Federal Reserve printing money ... they can only do it because the American people allow it!
 :asian:


----------



## Cirdan (Apr 19, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Actually, the presentation was more positive than that. Scandinavia has a degree of peace and economic freedom that is very unsocialist and this offsets a lot of the bad effects caused by their high taxes and wellfare programs. Yet, in the end, these programs have the same effect that all big government has. Socialist scandinavia still carries high public debt and at keeps getting higher. It's a party on other people's money that won't last forever.
> 
> On the plus side, when the unsustainability of socialist policy finally wrecks the economy, the economic freedom and peace that these countries enjoy should turn around the mess. quickly.




Norway does not have any debt, quite the opposite in fact. Now if you will excuse me, I am getting a free massage at work.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 20, 2013)

I don't subscribe to the "if Norway can do it so can we" mentality. The US is composed of States. We are not one singular entity. Population size, ethnic makeup, history etc are all vastly different.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## granfire (Apr 20, 2013)

Tgace said:


> I don't subscribe to the "if Norway can do it so can we" mentality. The US is composed of States. We are not one singular entity. Population size, ethnic makeup, history etc are all vastly different.
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



Well, the bigger problem is really that, well, as a whole, the US does not care to learn from other countries. It's a mentality thing more than a matter of being a singular entity.


----------



## arnisador (Apr 20, 2013)

Tgace said:


> I don't subscribe to the "if Norway can do it so can we" mentality.



But too many seem to have the mentality that nothing that works elsewhere can possibly work here...even modified.


----------



## Makalakumu (Apr 20, 2013)

I think the message here is that scandinavia is not as socialist as everyone assumed. It's easier to start a business there than anywhere in Europe. They have the most respect for property rights than anywhere else in the region. The tax policy is a drag on the economy, but it is offset by greater freedoms elsewhere. 

Still, public debt creeps upward and overall wealth is lower because of the high taxes. 

Could the US do this? Surely, we already share many characteristics with scandinavia already. The biggest difference is the US insistence on being the policeman of the world and maintaining a global empire. The US would have to drastically change it's foreign policy and cut defense spending by over 90% before we could be more like scandinavian countries.

People don't realize that war and defense is a form of socialism as well. Countries that spend less and actually train for defense are freer than the US.


----------



## Makalakumu (Apr 20, 2013)

K-man said:


> As far as the Australian housing market is concerned it has been slow or has gone a little bit back over the pat five years. Now it is starting to grow again thanks to lower interest rates and less pessermism. Your assertion that the Australian housing situation is in a bubble that will pop is purely your opinion, and IMHO an uninformed one at that. There are many reasons the Australian market has been steady, not the least being that money is only lent to those with the capacity to service the debt, unlike the US banks that gave money to anyone, then sold the mortgages, with AAA rating, to others who ended up carrying the can when the debtors could not pay.
> 
> As to your Federal Reserve printing money ... they can only do it because the American people allow it!
> :asian:



Low interest rates always cause bubbles to form in economies. Governments need low interest rates so they can borrow money cheaply and keep interest payments low. The American and most other people are simply ignorant of this fact.


----------



## billc (Apr 20, 2013)

Here is an article on Norway I have posted before...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/07/the_norwegian_miracle.html



> Let me bring that down to earth.  First, Norway's population is about 4.7 million, or about the same South Carolina's, or a bit more than half of New York City's.  That population is at least 98% white, and almost all of that is Norwegian.  It is also about 90% Christian.  About four out of five Norwegians live in cities, with almost one in five living in Oslo itself.
> Norway might be liberal, but it is not diverse.  (The U.S., for [COLOR=#11B000 !important]comparison[/COLOR], is 80% white and 70% Christian.  So whites outnumber minorities 4-to-1 in the U.S.  In Norway, the ratio is 50-to-1.)
> But perhaps the two charts below might give us some insight into Norway's economic success.
> *Norway's Crude Oil Production* Source: U.S. Dept. of Energy.*Crude Oil Prices* Source: U.S. Dept. of Energy.​It just so happens that Norway's success over recent decades coincided rather nicely with two explosions: North Sea oil production and oil [COLOR=#11B000 !important]prices[/COLOR].





> So the simple-minded story is that Norway is some great socialist state yet its economy is humming along just nicely.  Let me summarize its _real_ keys to prosperity.
> 
> 
> A tiny, non-diverse, predominantly white and Christian population.
> ...


Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/07/the_norwegian_miracle.html#ixzz2R1wTyuwk 
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook


----------



## Makalakumu (Apr 20, 2013)

Norway is a great argument for States Rights.


----------



## K-man (Apr 20, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Low interest rates always cause bubbles to form in economies. Governments need low interest rates so they can borrow money cheaply and keep interest payments low. The American and most other people are simply ignorant of this fact.


I don't subscribe to your opinion. Low interest rates are an indicator that an economy is struggling. The private economy is quite separate from Government borrowing. Governments usually borrow to fund infrastructure, nothing to do with keeping interest rates low. Depending on their credit rating, Governments can borrow at very low rates anytime. If they borrow to pay for wages or handouts, recurrent expenditure, then they will go down the drain very quickly. The people who are ignorant of your 'fact' are probably more right than you, because in is in fact, not 'fact'.


----------



## Cirdan (Apr 20, 2013)

> Let me bring that down to earth.  First, Norway's population is about 4.7 million, or about the same South Carolina's, or a bit more than half of New York City's.  That population is at least 98% white, and almost all of that is Norwegian.  It is also about 90% Christian.  About four out of five Norwegians live in cities, with almost one in five living in Oslo itself.
> Norway might be liberal, but it is not diverse.  (The U.S., for [COLOR=#11B000 !important]comparison[/COLOR], is 80% white and 70% Christian.  So whites outnumber minorities 4-to-1 in the U.S.  In Norway, the ratio is 50-to-1.)



The 90% christian is just a cover of course. In private all Norwegians worship All-Father Odin.


----------



## K-man (Apr 20, 2013)

I don't understand why you guys are bagging Norway.  Norway has a healthy economy, a good standard of living, good health care for all its citizens and a very democratic system of Government with input from multiple political parties. How you define 'Socialist' is up to you but from an American perspective most
 other first world countries would appear 'socialist' because they care for their citizens and legislate to that effect. Some of those countries certainly are socialist and proud of that label.

Why don't you ask *Cirdan *where he would prefer to live. I doubt he would be thinking of emigrating anytime soon.


----------



## Cirdan (Apr 20, 2013)

K-man said:


> Why don't you ask *Cirdan *where he would prefer to live. I doubt he would be thinking of emigrating anytime soon.



The only place I have been thinking of moving to lately is Spitzbergen . However I haven`t visited US yet, maybe I will later this year. Friends who have been there have only good things to say about the country and its people. Plus I have lots of relatives over there.

Norway is overall a very good place to live, sure. We still have problems and argue about the smallest thing like any other country.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 20, 2013)

The whole idea of "lets just try something" on a national/economic scale is a pipe dream IMO....Norway didn't just "try something"...their nation is a result of many influences over their history cooked in a pot containing all the ingredients mentioned in bills post.

Different ingredients, different method of cooking different results.

We are not Norway.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Makalakumu (Apr 20, 2013)

K-man I'm pulling my reply to interest rates back to the Aussie economy thread.


----------



## arnisador (Apr 20, 2013)

Tgace said:


> The whole idea of "lets just try something" on a national/economic scale is a pipe dream IMO....



Isn't the opposite of this "Let's do nothing", though?


----------



## Makalakumu (Apr 20, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Isn't the opposite of this "Let's do nothing", though?



One thing that has always stood out for me is the idea that these smaller population countries have a much greater degree of control on their government and it seems to serve the people a little better than large population governments. This only makes sense because the people can tailor the government to fit their own needs better. Perhaps the lesson here is that the US is simply too large on the federal level and that the States could be much better off by being more independent. They might not do everything like the Scandinavians, but than again, they might.


----------



## Tgace (Apr 20, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> One thing that has always stood out for me is the idea that these smaller population countries have a much greater degree of control on their government and it seems to serve the people a little better than large population governments. This only makes sense because the people can tailor the government to fit their own needs better. Perhaps the lesson here is that the US is simply too large on the federal level and that the States could be much better off by being more independent. They might not do everything like the Scandinavians, but than again, they might.



Which is what the founding fathers envisioned for us IMO..the Civil War took us off the rails....


----------



## Cirdan (Apr 21, 2013)

Tgace said:


> The whole idea of "lets just try something" on a national/economic scale is a pipe dream IMO....Norway didn't just "try something"...their nation is a result of many influences over their history cooked in a pot containing all the ingredients mentioned in bills post.
> 
> Different ingredients, different method of cooking different results.
> 
> ...



Well actually trying out new things is very much in the part of the norwegian character. We even jokingly (with a heavy slice of irony) refer to our own country as "the differentcountry" because of our willingness to do new strategies. Not my intention to brag, this is like germans being good at drills/routine (which norwegians suck at), the french being detail-oriented and americans masters of super-sizing. 

Wouldn`t dream of telling the US how to do things however. I imagine your society, with among other things less of a "safety net" and greater rewards for personal success, is the way you want it to be.

But you SHOULD try some of our Brown Cheese


----------



## TimoS (Apr 21, 2013)

Cirdan said:


> But you SHOULD try some of our Brown Cheese


Knowing Norwegians, you probably make it out of herrings


----------



## Cirdan (Apr 21, 2013)

TimoS said:


> Knowing Norwegians, you probably make it out of herrings



I thought that would appeal to the finnish? Good for a snack with the vodka in the sauna...



> *You Know You've Been In Finland Too Long, When...*
> 
> You know how to prepare herring 105 different ways.
> You meticulously manage your plastic bag collection.
> ...


----------



## Cirdan (Apr 29, 2013)

Did I mention Norway got a rich cultural life? Here is some light entertainment on Oslo`s main street last saturday. Cultural activity like this is exempt from tax of course.


----------



## TimoS (Apr 29, 2013)

Cirdan said:


> Did I mention Norway got a rich cultural life



I must say that I like that sort of culture


----------



## Cirdan (Apr 29, 2013)

TimoS said:


> I must say that I like that sort of culture



Sometimes even herrings and vodka just ain`t enough


----------



## TimoS (Apr 29, 2013)

Cirdan said:


> Yup, herrings and vodka ain`t all after all



True  By the way, since we're talking about the greatest part of the world, Scandinavia, do you know what Sweden has but neither Finland nor Norway has? 












Great neighbors, of course


----------



## Cirdan (Apr 29, 2013)

TimoS said:


> True  By the way, since we're talking about the greatest part of the world, Scandinavia, do you know what Sweden has but neither Finland nor Norway has?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My first thought was envy for their neighbors but that works too


----------



## TimoS (Apr 29, 2013)

[yt]pw3e64sosEg[/yt]
[yt]k1hXbGXKyng[/yt]


----------



## Cirdan (Apr 29, 2013)

John Cleese on Norway:


----------

