# An interesting phone call today



## RyuShiKan (Apr 27, 2003)

I decided to settle an argument that was on another thread that was just closed.

The basic argument was whether a certain member of this BBs was really an 8th dan in Pangainoon.

I made a phone call to Pangainoon Honbu Dojo in Okinawa to investigate.

The first question I asked was if they new of the afore mentioned member of this board.

Me: Do you have an American 8th dan in your Pangainoon system named xxxxx xxxxxxx or have you ever heard of him?

Pangainoon Honbu: No, he is not an 8th dan member of our organization and no we have never heard of him.

Me: I see. Is there anyone in the Pangainoon system America or the West that could promote someone to an 8th dan?

Pangainoon Honbu: No, we are a rather small organization and have no members abroad that could do that. All testing for that grade would have to take place here in Okinawa.


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## Don Roley (Apr 27, 2003)

Hi,
I stumbled across this basically because I am bored and my wife is using the TV to play the latest version of Final Fantasy. It did not take long to find the thread that was recently closed and see that the individual in question is "David" (Mya Ryu Jitsu) who claims eighth dan, but refused to give Ryushikan the name of the person who gve him the rank because he claims to not like his attitude.

I offer my help if both parties will accept it. I do not practice karate and have no stake in the matter what so ever. If David wishes to give me the info to contact his teacher and confirm his story, I will do so and report back what I learn. Ryushikan can remain in ignorance as to the teacher's identity.

If however, I am not able to confirm the story, then I will report that back as well. The burden of proof is on those making the claims, and if someone is claiming to have been promoted to eighth dan, I honestly can not see any reason why he or she can not give the name of the teacher that gave them that rank.

I will be honest in saying that I tend to believe Ryushikan more than the person who has refused to publically back up the claims he has made in a public forum. But I will be fair and since I have no stake in the matter and can communicate in Japanese, I think I can help help make the situation clear one way or another.

I just hope that I am not met with some poor excuse or accusation.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 27, 2003)

Don, 

Thanks for the kind offer and under normal circumstances I would accept.
However, since deception and evasion seem to be the trademarks of the person in question I will have to decline.
He could easily give you the name of a friend that could pretend to be this ever-elusive master.
I will take the Pangainoon Honbus word for it that there is nobody in the Us or West that is qualified to certify someone as an 8th dan in their system.


By the way, any meetings at the Chubliners in Shinjuku lately?


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## chufeng (Apr 27, 2003)

RSK,

Here is the CV of MRJ...
You're right, he doesn't indicate WHO promoted him, just that he was promoted...

At any rate, I didn't know if you saw this the last time it was up.



> quote: Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
> 1972 - began Uechi-ryu and trained to Green belt. Due to changes in the systems hierarchy in Okinawa different factions spit off. Continued on in Pangai-noon off shoot as well as boxing [Grandfather was Golden gloves].
> 
> 1980 - First Dan.
> ...



Interesting that he was recently considering changing the name to Pangainoon Jitsu, yet claims he no longer teaches Pangainoon.
Whatever 

I think he probably is a decent fighter with some real world experience, but a traditional martial artist? Not.

:asian:
chufeng

PS: I doubt that beating a dead horse will get very far, he clearly indicated (at length) that he has no intention to reveal his teacher's name.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *I think he probably is a decent fighter with some real world experience, but a traditional martial artist? Not.
> 
> *




I couldnt say since I have never seen him in action.
For all I know he could be some teenager using Daddies computer.


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## Matt Stone (Apr 27, 2003)

RyuShiKan is my friend.  I consider him to be one of my best friends, and especially one of the closest people I know within martial arts circles.  He has been a teacher, mentor and friend in the short time I have known him.

I simply want to say that, despite what some who are on the wrong side of his posts may wish to believe about his personality, he is far from being an "angry" or intolerant person.  He is simply very outspoken, and refuses (as do I, and most of the other MAists I know) to sit back and allow those who are blatantly presenting themselves to be something they are not.

Now, if some folks take offense to the position that if they are making claims in public they need to be prepared to provide proof and evidence, then it leads me to believe that they know, at some level, that they have something they don't want made public...  Whether it is a ranking issue, a "lineage" issue, or something else, they have skeletons that they want to remain secret for on reason or another.

It's a put up or shut up kind of thing, really.  If we were all in a room in person, rather than on an internet forum, I suspect several folks would walk up to people making extravagant claims, and ask for proof.

And if that proof was not forthcoming, everyone in the room would know what the truth was...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Jill666 (Apr 27, 2003)

I think we already know. 

What I don't understand is why people claim to be something they are not. If you have studied for years, and still study, if you have some life experience and are a truthful person, then why isn't that enough?

Nobody knows everything, which is why we are here- to share the stuff we know and learn the stuff we don't. :shrug: 

You know, if people spent half the energy they spent lying and covering their tracks on learning what they don't know, they might actually be what they claim.


 :soapbox: 

My humble f***ing opinion.


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## Matt Stone (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jill666 _
> *I think we already know.*



Just wanted to make the statement publicly.  It has been said that the Yili folks tend to "gang up" on folks.  Nah.  We just take our loyalties very seriously.  RSK is not a Yili person (in the strict sense of the term), but he is my friend.  And I don't take folks making incorrect statements about my friends very lightly...  :angry:



> *What I don't understand is why people claim to be something they are not. If you have studied for years, and still study, if you have some life experience and are a truthful person, then why isn't that enough?*



Y'know, I couldn't tell you...  When I was in Japan, I made it a point to let everyone know I was just a lowly shodan (and later, nidan), and that I didn't know very much at all.  Interestingly enough, _they didn't care_, and they were satisfied with learning what they could from me.  There was a local instructor that, depending on the day, claimed either 6th dan, 8th dan, or "grandmaster" title, and his class was pretty much run out of existence by mine...  A lowly ol' 1st dan.

Why?

Personally, I think it had as much to do with the fact that I didn't BS anyone about my background as it did with the fact that the other guy's class content was crap.



> *Nobody knows everything, which is why we are here- to share the stuff we know and learn the stuff we don't. :shrug: *



No, nobody knows everything, but there are some folks whose egos really require recognition that they know _nearly_ everything.



> *You know, if people spent half the energy they spent lying and covering their tracks on learning what they don't know, they might actually be what they claim.
> 
> :soapbox:
> 
> My humble f***ing opinion. *



You'd think...  Then again, there have been folks I've run into, here on MT, on E-budo, on KFO, and in real life, that are far more concerned with collecting spiffy patches and belts, NASCARing up their uniforms, and making money from their mini-mall school than they were with really learning any MA of quality.  Go figure.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## arnisador (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *He is simply very outspoken, and refuses (as do I, and most of the other MAists I know) to sit back and allow those who are blatantly presenting themselves to be something they are not.
> *



This board is for the _friendly_ discussion of the martial arts. While one is welcome to question a member's background, and to point out that this background may be suspect if that is what one believes, _refusing_ to allow someone to behave in a certain way on _*our*_ board is not acceptable. In this case we have repeatedly indicated that, because of the obvious stalemate, this matter should be taken to e-mail. If a resolution is achieved there, it would be quite reasonable to post about it. Otherwise, it would be _friendly_ to agree to disagree.

There are other boards that are appropriate for an argument like this. But on MartialTalk, this type of repeated call for credentials is unwelcome. Perhaps E-Budo would be a more appropriate place as this involves a claim about an Okinawan art; I don't know if they would want it there or not.

We realize that the intention here is to prevent others from studying with what some feel is, potentially, a fraudulent instructor, and to maintain the value of legitimately granted rank. Those are worthwhile causes. But we are all called to different ministries, as they say, _and this one is not MartialTalk's_. We want friendly discussion of the martial arts--not repeated bickering over who studied with whom and whether their rank is legitimate or not.



> *It's a put up or shut up kind of thing, really. *



No. It's a "Our dojo, our rules" kind of thing.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## chufeng (Apr 27, 2003)

Hi Jill...

This weekend, I started teaching two new students the short YiLi version of the "simplified-24 step" TaiJi...

They asked what they should call me...

I responded "sifu" (simply put, it means teacher...sort of the equivalent of sensei)...

One of them commented that she viewed "sifu" as an old man with a long white beard...(they are both Chinese)

They asked Matt Stone (Yiliquan1) what they should call him...he said "Matt"

Although I change the color of my belt (sometimes white, sometimes yellow, sometimes black, etc.) each week, with the sole purpose of de-emphasizing rank, I have held on to the title of teacher...but, I am beginning to think Matt was right and I was wrong.

I've always said that we are all students...some just further along the path...if that is so, why do we have titles???

Now, my teacher would certainly have plenty to say about it (tradition, not withstanding)...he is the one who "imposed" rank on us in the first place (can I say that?)...with rare exception, all of the YiLi seniors could give a mouse-fart about rank...

...at any rate, I am just unloading some of the thoughts I've had since yesterday's training...maybe I'll just be "chufeng" fdrom now on....or, Mark....

Later.

:asian:
chufeng


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## chufeng (Apr 27, 2003)

Arnisador,



> We realize that the intention here is to prevent others from studying with what some feel is, potentially, a fraudulent instructor, and to maintain the value of legitimately granted rank.



That is the intent...but I have to agree that pursuing a circular argument really goes nowhere...

The silence from the one who made the original claim speaks loudly...At this point, I don't really care whether he posts an answer or not...those who have followed this "saga" already have an opinion

I don't begrudge MRJ...as I've said, he probably is a decent fighter...just not a traditional martial artist...and he really should just stick to English when naming his art and title...there would be much less confusion...but, he has made his choices...time will tell whether they were good choices.

His work with disadvantaged children is a highly commendable endeavor...but that is marketing, and not related to the issue that has been exhaustively discussed here...I am sure that he is a decent man and an honorable man...but, in trying to gain legitimacy, he casts doubt on the very thing he seeks...

You are right, this is an area for friendly discussion and e-mail is probably the place to take this from this point forward...but RSK's input and his desire to keep the legitimate arts pure is also an honorable cause...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *This board is for the friendly discussion of the martial arts. While one is welcome to question a member's background, and to point out that this background may be suspect if that is what one believes, refusing to allow someone to behave in a certain way on our board is not acceptable.*



While I know the call has come several times in the past, I know that, from my own perspective, allowing people with questionable backgrounds to post, _especially_ after their backgrounds have been called into question, simply makes the case against them that much stronger...  In the past, I have had some unpleasant dealings with a few folks on MT.  I have buried the hatchet on one, another guy was banned, another guy I let bury himself with his nonsensical posts, and the other guy I simply leave alone and others make their own judgements.

And at some point, calling someone out to prove their background, no matter the format of the proof, is going to get unfriendly.  It just isn't "neighborly" to tell somebody that you think they are a big wad of cow dung and you want them to show the world just how stinky their past really is.  You can phrase it nicely enough, but it still boils down to the same thing - unless, of course, the other person doesn't take it personally and has nothing to hide (which was the case with the person with whom I eventually buried the hatchet). 



> *In this case we have repeatedly indicated that, because of the obvious stalemate, this matter should be taken to e-mail. If a resolution is achieved there, it would be quite reasonable to post about it. Otherwise, it would be friendly to agree to disagree.*



While the origination of this post stems from that battle, I have two thoughts...  For the one person with the stones to ask the question publicly, there are likely to be many more with the same question (but are either too fearful or polite to ask).  Secondly, should said resolution be posted?  I would think and hope so, no matter which direction it goes.  If the person's background is vindicated by the proof, it _needs_ to be posted.  If it isn't, it _needs_ to be posted as well (since not doing so exposes others to vicitimization by fraud).



> *There are other boards that are appropriate for an argument like this. But on MartialTalk, this type of repeated call for credentials is unwelcome. Perhaps E-Budo would be a more appropriate place as this involves a claim about an Okinawan art; I don't know if they would want it there or not.*



You are the Mod.  I bow to your rules.  However, at what point does the desire to remain friendly expose board members to fraudulent instructors and their wily schemes with no protection whatsoever?  I understand that it is impossible to police everyone...  There will always be frauds and scam artists that fall through the cracks.  But at some point we need to start policing ourselves.  I understand the Mods may not be either in a position to do it, or the people to do it, but those of us in the rank and file in a position to do some research can.  I stay away from it because the stated purpose of MT is to remain "friendly."  At the same time, there _is_ a forum devoted to frauds and bad martial arts right here on MT...  Perhaps it is an issue of posting the info, posting the questions, in the wrong forum section? :shrug:



> *We realize that the intention here is to prevent others from studying with what some feel is, potentially, a fraudulent instructor, and to maintain the value of legitimately granted rank. Thos are worthwhile causes. But we are all called to different ministries, as they say, and this one is not MartialTalk's. We want friendly discussion of the martial arts--not repeated bickering over who studied with whom and whether their rank is legitimate or not.*



Perhaps the repeated bantering by both parties has been enough on this one issue.  But, like flame wars about anything else, given the revolving nature of forum membership, the same issues (on the same people or not) are bound to return.  People will post, people will be questioned, people will refuse, people will be taken to task on bogus or conflicting information, and the Mods will have to get involved again.  Just the nature of the Beasties - martial arts *and* internet forums... 



> *Posted by Yiliquan1
> It's a put up or shut up kind of thing, really.
> 
> Posted by Arnisador
> No. It's a "Our dojo, our rules" kind of thing.*



Here I will most respectfully disagree wholeheartedly.  No matter the art, no matter the culture from which it stems, there are certain hallmarks of authentic instruction.  One of those is the ability to prove one's legitimacy.  Frauds tend to talk big, but waver on the ability to follow through.  Some folks are good fighters, and that is enough to authenticate their claims.  In cases of paper claims, however, the only resolution is the substantiation of what is being alleged.  Then it is an issue of being able to produce or not.  Put up, or shut up.  It has nothing to do with "our dojo, our rules."  Just a call for folks to back up what they claim to possess.  If I said I could don a cape and fly like a bird, would you (in the plural sense) believe me, or would you want proof?  Same thing here.  If I kept stating in public that I could fly, but refused to demonstrate it, folks would just "know" that I was full of it, and they would walk away...  Same thing here, except in the case of MA, folks aren't always smart enough to walk away, and they sometimes believe things that go against common sense because they just don't know any better.

Anyway, in other news...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Hi Jill...
> 
> This weekend, I started teaching two new students the short YiLi version of the "simplified-24 step" TaiJi...
> ...



First, my adherence to just going by my name is my own private indulgence to nonconformity and rebellion.  I live a life dicated by rules and regulations, many of which I find confounding, assinine, and downright unnecessary.  Most of them are okay, but constricting nonetheless.

So when I get the chance to have a say in what happens in my life, something that nobody can _really_ influence other than me (like how someone refers to me), then I go for it.

Chufeng, you are our teacher here, locally.  I admit I have trouble calling you "sifu," because in my mind Sifu is "sifu," which I guess makes you "shixiong" (like one of the newcomers wanted to call me).  But because they are not students of Sifu's, that makes *you* Sifu to them, like you are to Wormtail and "the Other Mark."

Stick with Sifu.  At least during class/training time.  It wouldn't be right any other way.

Or not.  Hell, you outrank me, so do what you want...  

I'm still just Matt, the "little fatty."

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## chufeng (Apr 27, 2003)

OK,

Little Fatty...

I am not your Sifu...your primary teacher IS Sifu P. Starr...I just happen to be colocated with you...all of your training, up to a year ago was under Sifu Starr or other sensei...

I am your older brother because we have a common teacher.
BUT, you also have a ton of stuff to show me...should I call you Sifu?

But, again, why all of the titles ?

I think I'm going to down-grade myself to just "chufeng."

For those that don't don't know (I guess that is most of you) chufeng means bamboo wind...philosophically that name fits me very well...those who know me best say that a bamboo wind is that which eminates from the south end of a north bound panda... and I guess that fits me too...because for all I say, I may be absolutely wrong on all of it...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *OK,
> 
> Little Fatty...
> ...



The day that I deserve that title is the day that I will start questioning the validity of the qualifying criteria for deserving that title!



> *But, again, why all of the titles ?*



To quote Master Lee from Black Sash - "Tradition."

You are the teacher of a new student.  To them, you are Sifu.  You are my Older Brother (in Mandarin, _shixiong_) here, but the head instructor...  It would be appropriate for me to call you Older Brother, but confusing to some of the non-Mandarin speaking students, so I just refer to you in class as sifu so as not to rock their boats too much (they have enough on their minds as it is).



> *I think I'm going to down-grade myself to just "chufeng."*



If we were in Japan, I could guarantee you an uphill battle.  Even though I told my students *not* to refer to me as _sensei_, they still did.  Even after I pointed out examples of Japanese MA teachers in Japan telling their students (who were older than them, which was often the case of my students - most were at least a year older than me, if not several years older) that it was inappropriate by Japanese culture standards to refer to them as _sensei_, they still insisted.

But that was Japan.

We live in the US, so the entire title thing is going to be completely mixed up, and if you just go by your name or nickname, it will screw them up even worse.  Titles are okay, as long as the correct instruction in their use is given.  When folks don't know how to use the titles they hear around the school, then their misuse is iminent.

Or not.  Hell, you outrank me, do what you want! 

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 27, 2003)

> However, at what point does the desire to remain friendly expose board members to fraudulent instructors and their wily schemes with no protection whatsoever? I understand that it is impossible to police everyone... There will always be frauds and scam artists that fall through the cracks. But at some point we need to start policing ourselves. I understand the Mods may not be either in a position to do it, or the people to do it, but those of us in the rank and file in a position to do some research can. I stay away from it because the stated purpose of MT is to remain "friendly." At the same time, there is a forum devoted to frauds and bad martial arts right here on MT... Perhaps it is an issue of posting the info, posting the questions, in the wrong forum section?



Here is the thing....there is research, and there is 'beating it to death'.  After a certain point, you need to step back and let  the evidence or lack there of speak for it self.

To continue to hound, pursue and vendettaize a situation, defeats the purpose of this board.  It then decends to the point of a small 'elite' passing judgement, and that I will not allow.

If there are questions on an individuals qualifications, ask them.  Give the other side to respond or to not respond.  If you believe his 43rd degree in woodworking isn't valid, put up the info.  Call those in the know, trace back lineages and get the facts as you can find them.  Use the 'horror stories' (I'm renaming it soon) forum for that means.  If the person is a poster here, put a 'Hey, question on credentials' type post in their main forum, and then point them at the main discussion in the bad budo forum.

I am not one to evaluate ones worthyness or credibility.  I can research all day, but can't judge yet if they 'got the moves'.  Many of you do.

Put your information up, and let others make their own decisions.  This board is for the discemination of information, not to try and judge those in the arts.

Roberts to be commended for how much he cares about the arts.  The problems usually occur when it seems to get personal.  I for one couldn't call Japan or any Asiatic country...language barrier is the biggest issue there.  

Self policing is a good thing.  

One thing to remember, people remain silent for many reasons.  Sometimes its to hide.  Sometimes its because they simply do not want to get involved in the pissing matches that almost always occur.  Often times, its out of instructor loyalty.  The reasons vary.

You do have to give folks a little slack.  Sometimes, they are honorable.

:asian:


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## DAC..florida (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I couldnt say since I have never seen him in action.
> For all I know he could be some teenager using Daddies computer. *





My point exactly how could you judge someone who you have never seen in action, my sensai chooses not to disclose to you because no matter what he says or does you will not believe him YOU ARE IGNORANT and you seem to enjoy attacking other people, in my opinion you are a very insecure person and have to belittle others to make yourself look better. I would pay to put you up and fly you to florida just to watch Mya Ryu Jitsu kick your *** in a friendly sparring match!

You do add some valuable info to this site, but you are ignorant and have little respect for things you do not know, sounds to me that you have much envy toward Mya Ryu Jitsu and if you grow up any time soon you may realize he that chooses not to put that info on martial talk because it wouldnt matter what he posted you would find a way to tare his proof apart so why even bother.

I also feel that maybe its time for you to find someone else to f#ck with as most members are getting sick and tired of your sh#t



Just in case I forgot to mention you are A IGNORANT DUMB *** why dont you find somthing better to do with your time.


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## Disco (Apr 27, 2003)

Reading Chefung's post that listed the background of MyaRyuJitsu, it stated that it was an off-shoot of Pangracoon or whatever. Looking at his website and from his posts, he states he has ties to Europe and the Middle East and America. My question is: Is it possible that his ranking came from another Organization not from Okinawa? I know there's lots of countries that have there own versions of different styles that "ORIGINATED" from the far east and also have their own ranking authorization. If this is the case, I for one would not  have knowledge of any name(s) that would be referenced. The same holds true if the name(s) were from the other side of the world. I say this to RyuShiKan as an example, and with NO DISRESPECT INTENDED. You state your background and lineage. There is no easy way for me to prove or disprove the validity of your statement. I either accept or reject at face value, until something would trigger me to think otherwise. The one thing that I have learned about the Martial Arts in General, is that there is way too much dissension. Kenpo people can attest to that. I can understand the position that RyuShiKan has taken, but if what I stated above should be correct (ranking), would that in anyway change anyone's opinion or position?


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## DAC..florida (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *Reading Chefung's post that listed the background of MyaRyuJitsu, it stated that it was an off-shoot of Pangracoon or whatever. Looking at his website and from his posts, he states he has ties to Europe and the Middle East and America. My question is: Is it possible that his ranking came from another Organization not from Okinawa? I know there's lots of countries that have there own versions of different styles that "ORIGINATED" from the far east and also have their own ranking authorization. If this is the case, I for one would not  have knowledge of any name(s) that would be referenced. The same holds true if the name(s) were from the other side of the world. I say this to RyuShiKan as an example, and with NO DISRESPECT INTENDED. You state your background and lineage. There is no easy way for me to prove or disprove the validity of your statement. I either accept or reject at face value, until something would trigger me to think otherwise. The one thing that I have learned about the Martial Arts in General, is that there is way too much dissension. Kenpo people can attest to that. I can understand the position that RyuShiKan has taken, but if what I stated above should be correct (ranking), would that in anyway change anyone's opinion or position? *




Disco,
I doubt it would change anyones mind they are much to ignorant!






I forgot to mention above I feel much better now.


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## Matt Stone (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Here is the thing....there is research, and there is 'beating it to death'.  After a certain point, you need to step back and let  the evidence or lack there of speak for it self.*



Which is exactly what I try to do, in this particular situation and others.  You can only play the back and forth game for so long.  Personally, in the case of one guy a while back, I just got tired of tearing apart his posts - I got too bored with his endless gibberish to keep fighting.  Folks got the message anyway.



> *To continue to hound, pursue and vendettaize a situation, defeats the purpose of this board.  It then decends to the point of a small 'elite' passing judgement, and that I will not allow.*



I can appreciate that.  Seriously.  That isn't what I think anyone here really wants.  The Inquisition was cool to belong to, but uncool to run up against, if you get me...



> *If there are questions on an individuals qualifications, ask them.  Give the other side to respond or to not respond.  If you believe his 43rd degree in woodworking isn't valid, put up the info.  Call those in the know, trace back lineages and get the facts as you can find them.  Use the 'horror stories' (I'm renaming it soon) forum for that means.  If the person is a poster here, put a 'Hey, question on credentials' type post in their main forum, and then point them at the main discussion in the bad budo forum.*



Thanks for the clarification.  In my own pursuits, I will do exactly that.  :asian:



> *I am not one to evaluate ones worthyness or credibility.  I can research all day, but can't judge yet if they 'got the moves'.  Many of you do.
> 
> Put your information up, and let others make their own decisions.  This board is for the discemination of information, not to try and judge those in the arts.*



Amen.



> *Robert's to be commended for how much he cares about the arts.  The problems usually occur when it seems to get personal.  I for one couldn't call Japan or any Asiatic country...language barrier is the biggest issue there.  *



He surprises me sometimes.  I have never been told the extent of his contacts, nor have I ever asked (didn't care), but I have seen the results of some of his inquirires, and when I found out where they came from...  Wow.



> *Self policing is a good thing.  *



We just have to remember not to "Rodney King" it, I guess...



> *One thing to remember, people remain silent for many reasons.  Sometimes its to hide.  Sometimes its because they simply do not want to get involved in the pissing matches that almost always occur.  Often times, its out of instructor loyalty.  The reasons vary.
> 
> You do have to give folks a little slack.  Sometimes, they are honorable.
> 
> :asian: *



Agreed.  Thanks for reminding me.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## chufeng (Apr 27, 2003)

Wow,

RSK...look at this...do you think he really means it?



> I would pay to put you up and fly you to florida just to watch Mya Ryu Jitsu kick your *** in a friendly sparring match



Maybe we should insist, since the offer's made, that he do just that...how much would it cost for a round-trip ticket from Japan to florida and one night in a hotel?



> I also feel that maybe its time for you to find someone else to f#ck with as most members are getting sick and tired of your sh#t



I'm sure MRJ is proud of you for your mastery of the English language and following the tenets of Splashing Water...



> Just in case I forgot to mention you are A IGNORANT DUMB ***



...and you decided this, how???
Because he disagrees with your teacher?
That doesn't make him ignorant, it makes him disagreeable...

I am not at all surprised that after YEARS of TaeKwonDo training, you found someone, who has trained in Japanese, Chinese, or Okinawan arts, who had more to offer...DUH!!!! Read the REAL history of TaeKwonDo...and realize that the majority of dojangs in the US are run by 1 year shodans (who have subsequently tested for higher rank)...

This was a civil discussion right up to your post...
And, RSK's connections in Okinawa may be a burr under your saddle for awhile.............

Just when I thought things were settling down......

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Matt Stone (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *My point exactly how could you judge someone who you have never seen in action, my sensai chooses not to disclose to you because no matter what he says or does you will not believe him YOU ARE IGNORANT and you seem to enjoy attacking other people, in my opinion you are a very insecure person and have to belittle others to make yourself look better. I would pay to put you up and fly you to florida just to watch Mya Ryu Jitsu kick your *** in a friendly sparring match!*



The rates for flights from Japan are down from what I understand...  Did you have a date in mind?   



> *You do add some valuable info to this site, but you are ignorant and have little respect for things you do not know, sounds to me that you have much envy toward Mya Ryu Jitsu and if you grow up any time soon you may realize he that chooses not to put that info on martial talk because it wouldnt matter what he posted you would find a way to tare his proof apart so why even bother.*



Envy?  Really?  Wow.  When you miss, you *really* miss, don't you?



> *I also feel that maybe its time for you to find someone else to f#ck with as most members are getting sick and tired of your sh#t*



What, you did a poll?  Most members, or just you and MRJ?



> *Just in case I forgot to mention you are A IGNORANT DUMB *** why dont you find somthing better to do with your time. *



Are you going out of your way to try and get suspended, or did you just forget the rules here?  All that happened was a recurring request for credentials, but you start with the obscenities and name calling...  You represent your teacher and style well... :shrug:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## arnisador (Apr 27, 2003)

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Matt Stone (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *Reading Chefung's post that listed the background of MyaRyuJitsu, it stated that it was an off-shoot of Pangracoon or whatever. Looking at his website and from his posts, he states he has ties to Europe and the Middle East and America. My question is: Is it possible that his ranking came from another Organization not from Okinawa? I know there's lots of countries that have there own versions of different styles that "ORIGINATED" from the far east and also have their own ranking authorization. If this is the case, I for one would not  have knowledge of any name(s) that would be referenced. The same holds true if the name(s) were from the other side of the world.*



Had that been the case, a lot of things could have been cleared up long ago with such information being provided.

Anyway...



> *I say this to RyuShiKan as an example, and with NO DISRESPECT INTENDED. You state your background and lineage. There is no easy way for me to prove or disprove the validity of your statement.*



You could simply call or contact the Ryu Te Karate association HQ, I'm sure...  Easy enough, since it is in Kansas City.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## chufeng (Apr 27, 2003)

Hey Yiliquan1...stop ganging up on him...

Arnisador...this thread was going away from "bashing" and then someone decided to throw rocks...before cautioning us as a group, maybe you should caution the individual.

:asian:
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Hey Yiliquan1...stop ganging up on him...*



Yeah, I hate it when I gang up on people...  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Hey Yiliquan1...stop ganging up on him...
> 
> Arnisador...this thread was going away from "bashing" and then someone decided to throw rocks...before cautioning us as a group, maybe you should caution the individual.
> ...



PM warnings have been sent to several folks in this and other threads.  The public 'nudge' was to try to help cool things back down to a productive level, and let everyone know we are here.

:asian:


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## Disco (Apr 27, 2003)

He instructs in a dojo in Japan, but the Organization is based in KC. I would have thought it would be the other way around. In either case, it was just being used as an example. Even if I called, I'm taking the word of someone I don't know. Where still basically back to square one. I either accept or reject. If I should choose to reject, then the prudent thing for me to do is just forget about, distance myself from, pay no further attention to the party in question. Anyway, thanks for the info. I was just trying to look for an alternative course of action for all involved.


----------



## kenmpoka (Apr 27, 2003)

Some one please enlighten me. What is the meaning of "Mya Ryu Jitsu"?

:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *He instructs in a dojo in Japan, but the Organization is based in KC. I would have thought it would be the other way around.*



An incorrect, but understandable, assumption on your part.  Taika Oyata was born and raised in Okinawa, but eventually moved to the US.  It was there that RSK trained under Taika.  RSK eventually moved to Taiwan and later to Japan, where he currently resides and trains (and where I met and trained with him)...



> *In either case, it was just being used as an example. Even if I called, I'm taking the word of someone I don't know. Where still basically back to square one. I either accept or reject. If I should choose to reject, then the prudent thing for me to do is just forget about, distance myself from, pay no further attention to the party in question. Anyway, thanks for the info. I was just trying to look for an alternative course of action for all involved. *



I understand what you are saying, but at some point in the research of someone's claims to rank, you have to trust that the source you are contacting is telling you the truth.  Or not.  But only the former will allow you to come to a resolution on the issue.  The latter will only fuel the fire.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Disco (Apr 27, 2003)

Appriciate all your input. RSK is a very fortunate person, being able to train as he is/has. Having access to Okinawan teachings is a rare commodity. Anyway, mabey some day we just all my have the good fortune to run into each other at a seminar or the like. Good Health and Prosperity to all of my fellow Martial Artists here on MT.


----------



## KennethKu (Apr 27, 2003)

> by Arnisador
> 
> This board is for the friendly discussion of the martial arts. While one is welcome to question a member's background, and to point out that this background may be suspect if that is what one believes, refusing to allow someone to behave in a certain way on our board is not acceptable. In this case we have repeatedly indicated that, because of the obvious stalemate, this matter should be taken to e-mail. If a resolution is achieved there, it would be quite reasonable to post about it. Otherwise, it would be friendly to agree to disagree.
> 
> ...



None of my business, but this really sends the message that you are inviting all the cons and "fakers" to come to Martial Talk, where they are welcomed to lie and be protected by the mods.  You are basically telling people that if they are interested in legitimacy and honesty then they should not come to Martial Talk, but to go to other forums.

It does give the *appearance* that you are willing to  cater to liars and to protect them from the honest decent folks who would not put up with lie.  

This may not be what you have in mind. But that is the message you are presenting, unfortunately.  

Respectfully


----------



## DAC..florida (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Wow,
> 
> RSK...look at this...do you think he really means it?
> ...




Yeh! OK maybe I did forget he's in japan!



Where in the heck did you get splashing water from?
You guys are really good at twisting peoples words to fit your needs.


I decided that because I have watched him bash to many people with no evidence to back it up!


A burr in my saddle?  How do we know he even has connections I would like some proof of that and while he's at it he could also proove to me his rank!

Just because someone reads books and spends to much time on the internet does not make them the authority over all, eveyone seems to think he's the man and  that he knows everyone and has all of these connections, I want proof!!!


RSK now its time for you to be on the recieving end you can either send me a PM or E-MAIL, even better yet why dont you prove it right here on this site!  :asian:


----------



## Matt Stone (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Yeh! OK maybe I did forget he's in japan!*



Always remember to think before you speak/write/post.  It bites you in the butt every time when you don't...



> *Where in the heck did you get splashing water from?*



I seem to remember it being used in conjunction with either ZDW or MRJ, but have trouble finding where...



> *You guys are really good at twisting peoples words to fit your needs.*



Not at all...  Just as in MA when you use your opponent's attack against him, in a battle of words, words are used against those issuing them.  No twisting required at all...  That's why I always quote the entire post I am rebutting, inserting my comments where appropriate, so no portion of the other person's comments can be considered to have been deleted.



> *I decided that because I have watched him bash to many people with no evidence to back it up!*



RSK has bashed "too many people?"  How many is too many?  I have seen him go toe to toe with several, but by no means has it been "many."



> *A burr in my saddle?  How do we know he even has connections I would like some proof of that and while he's at it he could also proove to me his rank!*



Here you go...  Try contacting these folks: RyuShu.com 

RyuShiKan's dojo is listed under International listings...



> *Just because someone reads books and spends to much time on the internet does not make them the authority over all, eveyone seems to think he's the man and  that he knows everyone and has all of these connections, I want proof!!!*



And just because others _don't_ read books and do research doesn't mean the arts they follow aren't suspect...



> *RSK now its time for you to be on the recieving end you can either send me a PM or E-MAIL, even better yet why dont you prove it right here on this site!  :asian: *



I'm looking forward to RyuShiKan's response when he sees how this thread has expanded while he's been away...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## chufeng (Apr 27, 2003)

DAC,

Mya (according to YOUR teacher is an Arabic word which refers to the quality of water...sometimes flowing, sometimes splashing, sometimes coming in as a torrent...his words, not mine)

Mya Ryu Jitsu = (arabic)Some quality of water/(japanese)established school/(japanese)art...How come you don't know that if you are a student of that system?

How is that twisting anything?

I've met Mr. Oyata, twice, he is one of the very few real Masters left on the planet...Mr. Rousselot is one of Oyata Sensei's senior students...that is very easy to establish...and RSK is not ashamed to post any number of ways to verify it...unlike someone else.

I appreciate you coming to the defense of your teacher...I already acknowledged that he probably is a skilled fighter...that is NOT what this debate is about...and quite frankly I'm tired of it...

Good day...

:asian:
chufeng


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *My point exactly how could you judge someone who you have never seen in action, *



AND the point I brough it up was never about his skill, BUT about his claims.
You need to learn how to separate the two if you want to comment furhter.




> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> * my sensai chooses not to disclose to you because no matter what he says or does you will not believe him YOU ARE IGNORANT and you seem to enjoy attacking other people, in my opinion you are a very insecure person and have to belittle others to make yourself look better. *



I think the word you are looking for is SENSEI not sensai.
When you get a degree in Psychology and have done an internship then you can psycho analyze me.



> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *  I would pay to put you up and fly you to florida just to watch Mya Ryu Jitsu kick your *** in a friendly sparring match! *




YAWN.an internet challenge whatever shall I do.I seem to recall your teacher making some sort of hypothetical challenge at one time as well.




> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> * You do add some valuable info to this site, but you are ignorant and have little respect for things you do not know, sounds to me that you have much envy toward Mya Ryu Jitsu and if you grow up any time soon you may realize he that chooses not to put that info on martial talk because it wouldnt matter what he posted you would find a way to tare his proof apart so why even bother.
> I also feel that maybe its time for you to find someone else to f#ck with as most members are getting sick and tired of your sh#t.
> Just in case I forgot to mention you are A IGNORANT DUMB *** why dont you find somthing better to do with your time. *



That remark showed a lot of maturity.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> * You state your background and lineage. There is no easy way for me to prove or disprove the validity of your statement. I either accept or reject at face value, until something would trigger me to think otherwise. The one thing that I have learned about the Martial Arts in General, is that there is way too much dissension. Kenpo people can attest to that. I can understand the position that RyuShiKan has taken, but if what I stated above should be correct (ranking), would that in anyway change anyone's opinion or position? *



Actually there is an easy way to verify my rank and so on.

You can actually inquire at our Honbu.


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## arnisador (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *before cautioning us as a group, maybe you should caution the individual.*



Please bear in mind that this may have happened. We don't publicize such warnings, as a rule.

Typically we try an in-thread warning first and escalate to PMed warnings if needed. In-thread warnings should not be taken personally. If it doesn't apply to you, please ignore it!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *He instructs in a dojo in Japan, but the Organization is based in KC. I would have thought it would be the other way around. In either case, it was just being used as an example. Even if I called, I'm taking the word of someone I don't know. Where still basically back to square one. I either accept or reject. If I should choose to reject, then the prudent thing for me to do is just forget about, distance myself from, pay no further attention to the party in question. Anyway, thanks for the info. I was just trying to look for an alternative course of action for all involved. *





My teacher is from Okinawa and moved to the US in 1977 and relocated the HQ there.

Actually I had dropped the whole issue until MRJ brought the whole Pangainoon thing back up in the now closed thread.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> * A burr in my saddle?  How do we know he even has connections I would like some proof of that and while he's at it he could also proove to me his rank! *



Uhhhh I forgot.. what rank have I claimed?




> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> * Just because someone reads books and spends to much time on the internet does not make them the authority over all, eveyone seems to think he's the man and  that he knows everyone and has all of these connections, I want proof!!! *



Yes I read, and have Internet access and also train almost everyday.
Do you have better connections than me? If so great.


----------



## arnisador (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *However, at what point does the desire to remain friendly expose board members to fraudulent instructors and their wily schemes with no protection whatsoever? *



You make many good points in this post. I have much sympathy with your viewpoint and as a member, not an admin., I might well agree. I am working principally on the "broken windows" theory (despite that fact that it has had some doubts cast upon it recently)--if potential new members come here and see lots of such bickering, will they want to join?

As to your point that I quoted above, this is a tough call. With the Canadian Kenpo instructor who was convicted of crimes involving his students, we allowed great leeway. In this case the only allegation is that a dan rank may--I emphasize, _may_--not have been earned, or not have been earned through accepted channels. (I take no position on the matter.) Since the instructor is clearly teaching his own style, I don't see ut as being important enough to warrant repeated discussion when there is such an obvious case of being at loggerheads. Certainly, it's a judgment call.

But MartialTalk is for friendly discussion of the martial _arts_--discussion of techniques, history, training methods, and so on. That's why we're here. That's what draws people in (we believe). That's what we want to be known for; we have no desire to be all things toall people.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *
> RSK has bashed "too many people?"  How many is too many?  I have seen him go toe to toe with several, but by no means has it been "many."
> 
> ...


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 27, 2003)

Quite frankly I am surprised this thread has gotten so many responses.
All I wanted to do was post what transpired through a phone conversation..I was going to do it on the Your style thread but it got locked down. 

I think people have read enough to form an opinion one way or another on this subject.

All I have ever asked of people is that if they make a claim be able to prove it somehow.

If I said I was a former karate world champion you would expect me to be able to corroborate it somehow right?

As for being a senior student of Mr. Oyata..sorry, just a lowly yudansha that is pretty far down the totem poll of rank.


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## chufeng (Apr 27, 2003)

You may be far down on the totem, but with the quality of instruction you've received and continue to pass on to your students, you are head and shoulders above the majority.

I think that the interest that this thread (and previous threads) points out is that there are people who REALLY want to find quality instructors...they want to be able to trust their instructor's credentials...after all, they pay good money for instruction, shouldn't they get the best value for their dollar?

A teacher may be a good fighter with excellent real world experience...he may even hold legitimate rank...but the appearance of dishonesty, or evasiveness, sets up a bad situation in that his students may no longer trust what he says...

The best way to avoid that situation is to put your cards on the table...state "this is me, if you don't like it, go somewhere else," and go from there...

I think that we've come about as far as possible on this subject, but it is telling (the number of posts generated in such a short time) that people want to be able to trust those to whom they turn to for advice or instruction...

I think we owe the moderators a big thank you for letting it go this far...I figured it would have been locked about 20 posts back...

:asian:
chufeng


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 27, 2003)

I have no problem with guys that say I made my own style and call it Freds Bar Room Ryu 
Its when they make claims (lie about) to have connections to organization, ranks and titles they dont that degrades what the rest of the honest martial arts population is trying to do. I cannot sit idle by and watch.

I saw a saying on a Marine Corps. base one time.
It said: If you see something thats not right and can you fix it but dont youre a coward

I tend to agree with this statement on many levels.


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## chufeng (Apr 27, 2003)

> If you see something thats not right and can you fix it but dont youre a coward



Kind of hard to argue with that...

:asian:
chufeng


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 27, 2003)

Ya gotta love the Marine Corps. mind set!


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## Disco (Apr 27, 2003)

First, thanks to all who have read and answered any of my posts and furnished me with information. Hey! learn something new everyday. RyuShiKan and friends, I respect your principles and applaud your determination. Allow me to ask or reflect on this last question/comment. In all of the hostilities that have transpired, has the other party (MyaRyu) left the building? His rank may be in question, but you have to admit that he did not slink away or just disappear. He stayed to defend himself, granted not to the satisfaction of some, but non the less he stood his ground. Surely, that should/must account for something. A real fake or fraud, I doubt would have the courage to stand and fight. In reading the history behind this, I never read anything that suggested that he was trying to sell anything or dictate to anyone how great his style was. Just a thought. 

By the way, there was no answer to a question I asked earlier, so I'll present it again. It kind of fits here. Could it be possible that his rank was from some other Organization/Country other than Okinawa? And if that's the case, would/does that change anyone's opinion? Again, thanks to all.........


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## Matt Stone (Apr 27, 2003)

Actually, the quote is attributable to Confucius.  Originally, it went more like:

"To see the right thing, and fail to do it, is to want of courage."

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Jill666 (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *I think that the interest that this thread (and previous threads) points out is that there are people who REALLY want to find quality instructors...they want to be able to trust their instructor's credentials...after all, they pay good money for instruction, shouldn't they get the best value for their dollar?
> *



Yes this is very much my point. When I joined up, I didn't know much about the martial arts. (Hell I still don't, relatively speaking)

I went to a studio near my house, and liked what I saw being taught. I met with the head instructor, and saw he was the same man who I had seen teaching. Lastly, he showed me the family tree for the school. The name over the door and on the family tree was found easily on the net, in association with GM Parker, who I had heard of. That was the assurance I needed, to be sure I wasn't going to John Smith's McDojo.

Can all these things be faked? Sure. But in time it really isn't hard to separate the men from the buys. Direct men can answer direct questions without endless frills and dancing. 
:shrug:


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## chufeng (Apr 27, 2003)

> Could it be possible that his rank was from some other Organization/Country other than Okinawa?



Yes and No...

He might have gotten his rank from somewhere else, but the Honbo said, "No one outside of Okinawa could promote to that level..." so even if he did, it wouldn't be legitimate by the standards of the Honbo...

Again, I don't care one way or the other, he is probably a good fighter, a decent man, and has a good heart...it's just that he somehow wants to "connect" to the past to legitimize the thing he created...it simply smells wrong...

One of his students didn't even know what I was talking about when I referenced something he said earlier...what does that say about teaching the "roots" of a system?

:asian:
chufeng


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## arnisador (Apr 27, 2003)

My understanding was that there are several Pangainoon schools that are off-shoots/devolutions of Uechi-ryu--that there is more than one such karate style and at least one that considers itself a kung fu style (but comes via Uechi, not via the original Pangainoon of China). It may not be quite so simple.

There's also Shohei-ryu (see also here). Hmmm, then there's also Kirisutokyoo-Ryu  ("The Christian Way"), another Uechi off-shoot:



> Kirisutokyoo-Ryu does not endorse Asian religious ideas, but requires Biblical study in order to advance through the ranks.


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## Matt Stone (Apr 27, 2003)

> Kirisutokyoo-Ryu does not endorse Asian religious ideas, but requires Biblical study in order to advance through the ranks.



Uh, yeah...   

Whatever.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## chufeng (Apr 27, 2003)

I'm not opposed to someone learning "scripture" to advance...but it certainly limits the membership...or you will have really old white belts.

I am a Christian...a zen, contemplative Christian...I don't kow-tow to any religions...and I respect the beliefs of others...I don't try and force feed my beliefs on them...

I do expect my students to read John (new testament)...
But I also expect them to read LaoTze, Chuang Tze, Buddhist scripture, Hindu texts, and many other ideas...they are adults and can make up their own mind about WHAT they choose to follow...

All I ask of my students is that they investigate another idea before criticizing it.

:asian:
chufeng


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## DAC..florida (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *DAC,
> 
> Mya (according to YOUR teacher is an Arabic word which refers to the quality of water...sometimes flowing, sometimes splashing, sometimes coming in as a torrent...his words, not mine)
> ...



I am also tired of it!

Please take no offence to this but of all people on this forum I would have never expected the yilis to act like this. If I remember your sifu starr created yiliquan from more than one style and your rank can only be backed up by him, I have never heard of yiliquan until here nor do I have proof that it even exists, I have never questioned it or disrespected any of you and yet you and others continue to attack my teacher and mentor I am 28 years old and have never seen such jealousy as I see in this forum, cant anyone just realize that there are many MRJ students here and where not going away the sooner your envy and personal gripes against MRJ go away the sooner this debate will end.

In my opinion anyone who judges someone in this forum they have never met, and make statements that they can not back up they are IGNORANT this may or may not be directed toward you, those whom I am directing it towards know who they are. :asian:


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## DAC..florida (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *None of my business, but this really sends the message that you are inviting all the cons and "fakers" to come to Martial Talk, where they are welcomed to lie and be protected by the mods.  You are basically telling people that if they are interested in legitimacy and honesty then they should not come to Martial Talk, but to go to other forums.
> 
> It does give the appearance that you are willing to  cater to liars and to protect them from the honest decent folks who would not put up with lie.
> ...




Your Ignorance has also been reveiled, you make statements you can not back up about people you have never met!


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## DAC..florida (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Uhhhh I forgot.. what rank have I claimed?
> 
> 
> ...





I never said you claimed any rank I'm simply asking what your rank is and how you can prove it! I have veiwed the web sites that have been posted by either chufeng or yiliquan1 and that still doesnt prove anything I'm not about to call someone whom I do not know to check on your credentials for all I know it could be a buddy or a family member.

I also train every day, dont aviod the question you  have much knowledge and claim to have connections that can prove other peolpe do not have rank they claim. I just want you to prove these connections and how they can prove that MRJ doesnt have such rank. You know as well as I do that this cant be done because you dont know every grandmaster in the world and I'm sure that whom ever you called has never heard of MRJ but is he the only authority on this matter?

My maturity is based on the level of maturity of the person I am dealing with and in my opinion you are acting like a child on this debate, just because MRJ will not reveal to you the name of the instructor who last promoted him doesnt mean it never happened.

Much to common belief MRJ owes nothing to anyone on this site.
I believe that I am allowed a error in spelling once in a while.

P.S. I have been studying Kong Feuy for 1 week now and my instructors name is hong kong feuy, I just recieved my 22 degree black belt prove I didnt ( get my point )


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## DAC..florida (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Always remember to think before you speak/write/post.  It bites you in the butt every time when you don't...
> 
> 
> ...




Yiliquan, 
check out the responces I have given chufeng above I think some of your cocerns here have been adressed.

Also you did use the word splashing out of text wich caused my question!

There alot of people on this site making alot of claims that can never really be proven RSK being one of those people, the above adresses dont prove anything I have Know clue as to whom is on the other end of this!

RSK has a huge ego and seems to enjoy belittling others and that is the reason he has been suspended more than once, I dont feel as thow anyone is being fare with MRJ or even giving him a chance. You feel strongly about RSK because you know him and have trained with him, if you were to get to know MRJ and trained with him I know beyond the shadow of a doubt you would change your mind about him unfortunately this is difficult due to the distance between us but I dont think you should judge him or his style until you have had such an oportunity.


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## Matt Stone (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Yiliquan,
> check out the responces I have given chufeng above I think some of your cocerns here have been adressed.*



Thanks, but I've already caught up with the posting...



> *Also you did use the word splashing out of text wich caused my question!*



You need to re-read the posts...  Chufeng used the word "splashing," not me...  I know all of us Yili people look alike, but try to keep us straight, okay?



> *There alot of people on this site making alot of claims that can never really be proven*



And that is what started the entire disagreement between your teacher and others...



> *RSK being one of those people, the above adresses dont prove anything I have Know clue as to whom is on the other end of this!*



Well, www.ryushu.com is the website for Mr. Mike Minor.  You could discover that on your own with a very brief review of the main page, since his picture is splashed across it, and his bio is posted right there in plain sight.  Mr. Minor is another one of Taika Oyata's personal students.  There is also an extensive listing of the Ryu Te dojos worldwide...  Pretty simple, really.



> *RSK has a huge ego and seems to enjoy belittling others and that is the reason he has been suspended more than once,*



No, he has been banned because he doesn't always play nice and he doesn't always back off when he sees someone trying to portray themselves as something they are not.  He (and others, myself included) take "self-policing" pretty seriously, since there are plenty of others in the MA community that are okay with all sorts of bogus claims being levied by anyone and everyone...

And the only folks that seem to think his comments are belittling are the folks on the receiving end.  There have been a number of posts supporting RyuShiKan's questions...  Not so many supporting MRJ's resistance to providing the requested proof of rank.



> *I dont feel as thow anyone is being fare with MRJ or even giving him a chance.*



Not at all.  He was given every opportunity to provide the answers to the questions posed to him.  He balked at every turn.  I don't recall anyone calling MRJ names like the ones you called RyuShiKan.  All I remember were questions being asked with no answers given.

Whatever.    I really don't care anymore, and am only replying to you this one final time because you addressed me directly in this post.



> *You feel strongly about RSK because you know him and have trained with him, if you were to get to know MRJ and trained with him I know beyond the shadow of a doubt you would change your mind about him unfortunately this is difficult due to the distance between us but I dont think you should judge him or his style until you have had such an oportunity. *



You're right.  I feel strongly about RyuShiKan because I have seen and read his rank certificate, I have trained with him and his students, and have trained with others who have trained with RyuShiKan, his students, and others in his organization.  I feel strongly because my teacher knows RyuShiKan's teacher, and I feel that, in a particular way, he and I are "brothers" of a sort.  Perhaps I would feel strongly about MRJ...  Then again, maybe not.  But I know that right now, with what I know of him from this exchange alone, I am not terribly motivated to go out of my way to give him a chance of any kind.  Had he offered answers when asked, I know I would be differently inclined.

Enjoy the rest of the thread.  I'm unsubscribing to this thread and moving on to other, more interesting topics.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Don Roley (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *If there are questions on an individuals qualifications, ask them.  Give the other side to respond or to not respond.  If you believe his 43rd degree in woodworking isn't valid, put up the info.  Call those in the know, trace back lineages and get the facts as you can find them.  Use the 'horror stories' (I'm renaming it soon) forum for that means.  If the person is a poster here, put a 'Hey, question on credentials' type post in their main forum, and then point them at the main discussion in the bad budo forum. *



So let me see if I understand this. If Ryushikan posts a thread entitled "Mya Ryu Jitsu" in the horror stories forum and posts all that he has learned about it while inviting the members of th eorginization to respond in a _civilized and repectfull manner_ (which they do not seem to be capable of so far) then that is OK? And the next time a person makes a statement like, "After the decades of experience I have had as a master, it is my exaulted opinion that....." we are allowed to respond to that type  of statement by posting the url of the discussion on their credentials? That may be either a good way to stop fights, or a good way to start some constant hounding.

And I have to agree that some people do not want to talk about their past for soem very good reasons. But if they are willing to make statments about their credentials ina public manner, then they should be able to verify those claism in just as public a manner. If they are tryingot hide their past, it does not make sense for them to make public statements that refer to that past.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *
> RSK has a huge ego and seems to enjoy belittling others and that is the reason he has been suspended more than once, I dont feel as thow anyone is being fare with MRJ or even giving him a chance. You feel strongly about RSK because you know him and have trained with him, if you were to get to know MRJ and trained with him I know beyond the shadow of a doubt you would change your mind about him unfortunately this is difficult due to the distance between us but I dont think you should judge him or his style until you have had such an oportunity. *



Yet again you try to psychoanalyze me with out having met me.
My ego is no larger or smaller than most peoples.
Actually I dont belittle people.unlike yourself that has called not only me but several others on here ignorant.

As for being fair to MRJ..uh well sporto he had PLENTY of opportunity to answer questions asked to him but chose to give long diatribes about everything else.


AGAIN, nobody is talking about MRJs training or judging his styleits about the rank and titles he claims.
I am not sure how many times I will need to repeat that before you understand it


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## Mike Clarke (Apr 28, 2003)

DAC florida,
I've sat back and followed this thread and been amazed at your ignorance!
RSK asked a simple question in response to a claim made by your teacher. It's the fact that he can't/wont give a simple answer to a simple question that has given rise to the length of this thread.

I understand that from where you're standing it looks like people are attacking your teacher. But he is a man who stood up and made certain claims about his standing in Karate and yet is unwilling to follow up on the most innocent of questions; 
"Who graded you to 8th dan?"

If your teacher wants to be taken seriously by others, then he should behave in a way befitting his 'Rank', not duck and dive like a school boy who has been caught with his hand in the cookie jar!

Do you anf your fellow students know who he was graded by? Are his rank certificates on display in his dojo? [if so perhaps you could read the one from Pangainoon-ryu and let us know who signed it]. What I'm getting at is this. If your teacher is claiming to teach a tradition [however new] you and your fellow students should be being taught something about your history as well as the kicking and punching bit.

Sir Winston Churchill once wrote: "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened."

I think you'll find that Ryu Shin Kan is not the kind of person to do that. I think you'll also find that there are a lot of other folk on this forum who think as he does.

And before you ask, no I'm not with Yiliquan, and no I've never met RSK either. You can check my profile/webpage etc and form your own opinion of me. Ask the Who, When and Where questions if you like, and you'll get honest answers in return.

Mike.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 28, 2003)

Here is a true story for yall.

I met a guy that went to a school and was told he was learning style ABC.
He trained for several years in this style and went up in rank to something like 3rd or 4th dan. All the time paying money to his instructor who kept telling him part of the money went for membership & dan registration fees at the Honbu in Japan. 
Finally he decided he would go to Japan and train (his life long dream....This is a true story and no it wasnt me but a good friend of mine.)so off he went to train at the Honbu Dojo in Japan.
Well, he gets himself all set up and goes over to the honbu, shows what he believes to be a membership card to the Honbu..they look at it and ask him Whats that?
Long story short:
He wasnt a member of the Honbu because the money was never sent and the teacher had never had a connection what so ever to the Honbuall of his training was a lie.
His rank was not recognized, nor was his membership, in fact he couldnt even do the style because the teacher he had trained with in his own country had just pulled of it out of thin air..i.e. made it up.

So what harm does it do to lie about connections to organization to which you dont belong?

Well, this guy spent years training and sweating in what he thought was the real style he was told, not to mention paying a good sum of money over that time as well.

So this guy is out time, money, & sweat because some dipstick wanted to play Grandmaster and claim something he wasnt. 

Regardless of whether or not this ABC style was effective is beside the point.
The point is the student was not getting what he was told and thereby the teacher was committing fraud.


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## DAC..florida (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *DAC florida,
> I've sat back and followed this thread and been amazed at your ignorance!
> RSK asked a simple question in response to a claim made by your teacher. It's the fact that he can't/wont give a simple answer to a simple question that has given rise to the length of this thread.
> ...



I'm not Ignorant everyone who hounds MRJ has either had thier questions answered or has been told that they would never get those questions answered aproximately a month ago, so if you know youll never recieve the answer than why continue to hound and debate these issues THATS IGNORANT.

He has answered those questions numeruos times to many people on this site he just choses who will know and who will not know.

There is a history on the wall of our dojo as well as certificates and plaques awards ect. from all of the instructors in our shcool. I do have all of the answers that are being asked but it is not my place to answer any of these question.

The sooner the people hounding MRJ realize that they probably will never get these answers due to thier attitudes toward him and also due to the fact MRJ knows no matter what his answers are they will never be good enough for them the sooner this debate will be over.

I probably shouldnt even mention this here but, MRJ, myself and several other students of our style know that RSK does have connections to some big names and do to RSK's arrogant attitude MRJ will never give those names to him in fear that he may disrespect or offend such people!

:asian:


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## DAC..florida (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Yet again you try to psychoanalyze me with out having met me.
> My ego is no larger or smaller than most peoples.
> Actually I dont belittle people.unlike yourself that has called not only me but several others on here ignorant.
> ...




I understand you claim to only be attacking rank, but your not!

How many times must MRJ tell you that you will not get those answers before you will get it!

Also I am not trying to be your shrink just stating the obvious and I need no degree to do that, I have called you Ignorant because after many times that you have been told that the answers you seek will not be answered for many explained reasons you and others continue to make a big deal about it.


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## Mike Clarke (Apr 28, 2003)

Okay, I have a confession to make. 
It was me, I awarded the 8th dan to MRJ.
I was drunk at the time and he seemed like a nice kid. 
He said he'd never use it, but then? I kind of knew he would.
Thankfully he's kept my name out of it so far, so no one knows it was me [I'm not really qualifide to grade to 8th dan but what the heck, I needed the money at the time]
Don't believe me eh?
Prove it then!

You are a true reflection of your teacher son.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *  I'm not Ignorant everyone who hounds MRJ has either had thier questions answered or has been told that they would never get those questions answered aproximately a month ago, so if you know youll never recieve the answer than why continue to hound and debate these issues THATS IGNORANT. *



Nobody has hounded him for an answer to anything for over a month..least not by me.
He claimed in another thread that there were only 3 kata in Pangainoon and I stated that according to the style taught by Shu Shi Wa (uechi kanbuns teacher) there were 4 kata and named them. A noted and well-respected author by the name of Mark Bishop also confirmed this.
My point was if Mya Ryu Jitsu was really an 8th dan in Pangainoon then he would surely know this. 
Instead I got a lecture on how angry I was and a whole host of other unrelated defense mechanisms thrown at me.



> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *He has answered those questions numeruos times to many people on this site he just choses who will know and who will not know. *



As far as I am concerned he neednt answer. 
I think his non-answer tells most people the truth.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *
> I probably shouldnt even mention this here but, MRJ, myself and several other students of our style know that RSK does have connections to some big names and do to RSK's arrogant attitude MRJ will never give those names to him in fear that he may disrespect or offend such people!
> 
> :asian: *




:rofl: 
You give me more credit than I am due.


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## DAC..florida (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *Okay, I have a confession to make.
> It was me, I awarded the 8th dan to MRJ.
> I was drunk at the time and he seemed like a nice kid.
> ...




How could someone acting like a child call me son!

Mike you are very quick to jump on RSK's band wagon, why dont you come up with some of your own material.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *Okay, I have a confession to make.
> It was me, I awarded the 8th dan to MRJ.
> I was drunk at the time and he seemed like a nice kid.
> ...



It was you?!?
Well looks like I lost money on that bet.
I thought for sure it was Yabiku Takaya the Taxi driver in Okinawa that sells fake Hohan Soken  dan certificates. I thought maybe he was expanding his turf to included Pangainoon Cets. now.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *
> Mike you are very quick to jump on RSK's band wagon, why dont you come up with some of your own material. *




I think he actually wrote at least one book on the martial arts.............have you DAC? Could you?


Sorry, make that 2 books and at least 6 articles by Mr. Clarke.


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## DAC..florida (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *:rofl:
> You give me more credit than I am due. *



We have just checked into things a little and people we know have at least heard of you. Not sure if thats a good or bad thing!

And again he wishes you to offend knowone using his name therefore you will never know the people who have tested him.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *  We have just checked into things a little and people we know have at least heard of you. Not sure if thats a good or bad thing! *



I could care less if they have or not. 




> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *  And again he wishes you to offend knowone using his name therefore you will never know the people who have tested him. *




 
Yeah alright whatever you say.
Your post directed not only at me but other people are getting a little too low on the maturity scale to be considered worth reading. I can only take so much of someone running around saying "your ignorant",  "your ignorant",  "your ignorant".


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## DAC..florida (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I think he actually wrote at least one book on the martial arts.............have you DAC? Could you?
> 
> 
> Sorry, make that 2 books and at least 6 articles by Mr. Clarke. *



No I have not, never had the urge. I am sure I could if Iwanted to, but what does this have to do with anything because he wrote a book he's now the man.

I have played in your arena long enough, why dont come into mine. I study martial arts for many reasons, one of the most important to me is self defence. How many times have you been able to put your skills to the test outside of the arena or dojo.
How many times have you had to defend yourself against an attacker that wanted to kill you because the only thing between him and freedom was you.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *No I have not, never had the urge. I am sure I could if Iwanted to, but what does this have to do with anything because he wrote a book he's now the man. *



What would you write about?





> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I have played in your arena long enough, why dont come into mine. I study martial arts for many reasons, one of the most important to me is self defence. How many times have you been able to put your skills to the test outside of the arena or dojo.
> How many times have you had to defend yourself against an attacker that wanted to kill you because the only thing between him and freedom was you. *



People often resort to chest pounding and making unverifiable macho claims when they feel they have no other educated recourse.


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## DAC..florida (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I could care less if they have or not.
> 
> 
> ...



Places to go, people to see gotta go, but I will return later.
And I can only take so much of someone running around saying your fake, your fake, your fake!

I am not sure but I feel the only way myself or MRJ could earn your respect is to show you, I am not trying to make threats or promises but I sincerely hope someday we may be able to cross train.


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## DAC..florida (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *What would you write about?
> 
> 
> ...



Please who's being immature now, I ask you an honest question and you feed me with this?

Could I get an honest answer from you!


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *
> I am not sure but I feel the only way myself or MRJ could earn your respect is to show you, *



Yes please show me that 8th dan Pangainoon certificate, I would love to see it.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Please who's being immature now, I ask you an honest question and you feed me with this?
> 
> Could I get an honest answer from you! *




Oh, was it a serious question?
I thought that was just something you used as a lead in to show everyone what a tough guy you are.

Well since you are asking a serious question then.

I guess I would have to say more than once but less than 100.


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## lonekimono (Apr 28, 2003)

I know i'm late on this ,but i just read the post on (phone call)
and i just want to add something, you see i had the samething
happen to me but with a (former) student.
this person left me and the next thing i know is that he called this place called  World Blackbelt Bureau???  and they sent him a Blackbelt,now i called these people and i asked them how can you give someone a blackbelt without calling and finding out IS HE?
this is the point  the woman told me that they DID call his teacher and everything was ok.
i then said how can that be? i was his teacher,i gave her my name
and she said that is not the name she has, but she did indeed talk to his teacher.
I got nowhere fast with these people WHO GIVE BLACKBELTS TO ANYONE AND THERE GRANDMOTHERS.


> just because the stripes show,don't mean you know.      ED PARKER


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## Kirk (Apr 28, 2003)

I'm all for exposing frauds.  I definitely know what it's like to walk
in cold, not knowing a darned thing, and get scammed.  Hell, if it
weren't for seminars and camps and seeing others doing 
techniques the same way I'd been taught them, I could've been
STILL getting scammed.  

The only problem I really have with this thread, and I'm not trying
to take a dig at anyone, is that to DAC, all he's seeing is repeated
shots at his instructor.  I feel bad for him that he has to witness
this.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 28, 2003)

Enough.


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