# Body Responses



## MMAkid1 (Apr 23, 2008)

Hello all. I usually train with my friends and we train as close to real as possible, but I just can't be sure of how his body would react if I really struck him. I was wondering if there was a website or perhaps a program that can show you how the body will react to any type of strike with any amount of force. Does anyone know of such a site or program?

Many thanks
MMAkid1


----------



## MattJ (Apr 23, 2008)

Not one that I know of, but I wouldn't trust it anyway. FAR too many variables involved to know - angle of attack, speed and depth of impact, opponent's momentum, your momentum.........etc. 

If you spar with some decent contact, you will see for yourself what happens for the most part. No mysteries, really. Guy either falls down or he doesn't. :boing2:


----------



## MMAkid1 (Apr 23, 2008)

I understand what you're saying, I am just looking for the subtle reactions of the body, you know, like if you were to strike the sternum with a fist, would he bend over slightly or would it cause him to go backwards, that kind of thing.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 23, 2008)

MMAkid1 said:


> I understand what you're saying, I am just looking for the subtle reactions of the body, you know, like if you were to strike the sternum with a fist, would he bend over slightly or would it cause him to go backwards, that kind of thing.


You need to hit your partners.
Sean


----------



## MMAkid1 (Apr 23, 2008)

But then they don't want to train with me anymore.


----------



## Doc (Apr 23, 2008)

MattJ said:


> Not one that I know of, but I wouldn't trust it anyway. FAR too many variables involved to know - angle of attack, speed and depth of impact, opponent's momentum, your momentum.........etc.
> 
> If you spar with some decent contact, you will see for yourself what happens for the most part. No mysteries, really. Guy either falls down or he doesn't. :boing2:



Absolutely correct sir. The variable are immense, and there is no simple "chart" or guide to understanding the true science of martial posture. It's complex.


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 23, 2008)

MMAkid1 said:


> I understand what you're saying, I am just looking for the subtle reactions of the body, you know, like if you were to strike the sternum with a fist, would he bend over slightly or would it cause him to go backwards, that kind of thing.





Doc said:


> Absolutely correct sir. The variable are immense, and there is no simple "chart" or guide to understanding the true science of martial posture. It's complex.



If you work with each other using reasonably levels of force, you'll have an idea.  You'll get bumps and bruises, and you'll learn how it feels to get hit, too.  

But I'd suggest designing or planning techniques both for the ideal reaction, and also in a way that if the opponent doesn't do the ideal response, you're still in a safe and effective position.  For example, the other night one of my students was wanting to do a hard, low roundhouse kick to the opponent, following it up with a clothesline-like punch from the opposite side.  Personally -- that transition was way too long...  If the roundhouse didn't discombobulate the opponent enough, he was going to eat some punches or kicks.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 23, 2008)

MMAkid1 said:


> But then they don't want to train with me anymore.


Only the sissies. LOL


----------



## MMAkid1 (Apr 23, 2008)

:asian:Words of Confucious:asian:


----------



## MMAkid1 (Apr 24, 2008)

The way we train is without padding, but we use control. My partner and I simulate a Realistic Actual/Armed Combat Experience (RACE). What I mean is, I get into a mock argument with him, and try to de-escalate the situation. He may strike at any moment with any weapon wherever he chooses and he can strike as many times as he likes. The goal is to react without thinking and end the confrontation in any way. If you hesitate or slow down to think about what to do next, it ends and your turn is up. If I or my opponent see or feel a strike that we believe would be ineffective, we wait until the attack ends and then go over it slowly and try to see how the body would react. The problem is, if I strike him too hard, I may hurt him, and if I strike too softly, he wont react correctly. I want to know how his body will act when struck with True Force. Any ideas?


----------



## Doc (Apr 24, 2008)

MMAkid1 said:


> The way we train is without padding, but we use control. My partner and I simulate a Realistic Actual/Armed Combat Experience (RACE). What I mean is, I get into a mock argument with him, and try to de-escalate the situation. He may strike at any moment with any weapon wherever he chooses and he can strike as many times as he likes. The goal is to react without thinking and end the confrontation in any way. If you hesitate or slow down to think about what to do next, it ends and your turn is up. If I or my opponent see or feel a strike that we believe would be ineffective, we wait until the attack ends and then go over it slowly and try to see how the body would react. The problem is, if I strike him too hard, I may hurt him, and if I strike too softly, he wont react correctly. I want to know how his body will act when struck with True Force. Any ideas?



You're confusing training methodologies sir. You're engaging in "Scenario Training" that encompasses a wide range of issues including emotion inducing stressors, and requires an in-depth understanding of the Psychology of Confrontation. Before you move to Scenario Training you must address the correct application of the physicality of the process, absent the stressors that tend to corrupt the process.

The only way YOU can learn Induced Martial Posture is to have someone teach it to you a little at a time, in conjunction with the defensive application from both the perspective of attacker and victim. Or you must significantly attack and strike/seize your training partner surreptitiously, with significant energy to induce a spontaneous and substantially uncomfortable reaction, and capture that reaction from multiple directions on video for later study. 

However, this will not yield an understanding of how the body is performing or reacting subcutaneously, nor will it reveal subtle weight distribution issues that can have a profound impact on effectiveness and vulnerability possibilities and options.

What you need access to is "knowledge and experience." Neither of them will be found in a chart, graph, or cliff notes, or are they "easy"ily obtained. There are no short-cuts sir if you want to really learn. Or you can bang around with a buddy, and develop a reasonable expectation of what and how you would like to do things, and have fun doing it.

My math tutor once said, "Do you want to be a mathematician, or just balance your checkbook?" If you just want to "balance your checkbook," than keep doing what you're doing and learn as much as you can from it. If you want more, you're not going to find it on a forum. You need a really good teacher, and willingness to be patient and put in the time sir with that teacher. My mentor and Econ Professor, Dr. Thomas Sowell, once said, "There is no such thing as a free lunch. You may not pay, but someone else always does." 

In your case you're looking for that free lunch, but in these matters, you're going to have to pay the bill yourself, or you won't eat sir.  Either raise the level of your commitment, or be satisfied with what your level of commitment is capable of yielding. You're looking for "easy." There is no "easy" way to become competent at anything.

Good luck!


----------



## DavidCC (Apr 24, 2008)

this is one of those nuggets of wisdom that goes far beyond martial arts



> Either raise the level of your commitment, or be satisfied with what your level of commitment is capable of yielding


----------



## MMAkid1 (Apr 25, 2008)

I will never be satisfied because I will never be complete in my knowledge. However, I do believe a kinesthetic knowledge of the body; including organs, muscles, nerves, and skeletal structure, as well as Psychologic understanding of the brain, combined with knowledge of the reaction of the brain to sufficient force or impact on nerves, pain receptors, and skeletal/muscular limitations, would be extremely beneficial. All I'm really asking is for a website on a kinesthetic and psychologic test on the reaction of the body to sufficient/extraenous force and the resulting reaction of the body's defensive mechanisms from forces on various areas of the subject.


----------



## Frost (Apr 25, 2008)

This is something that I have spent a long time studying.  I think that to get the information you want you should ask specific questions about specific strikes and take the collective responses and formulate an answer.  Drawing on others' experiences, providing that they are true, has a lot of value.


----------



## MMAkid1 (Apr 25, 2008)

Frost said:


> This is something that I have spent a long time studying. I think that to get the information you want you should ask specific questions about specific strikes and take the collective responses and formulate an answer. Drawing on others' experiences, providing that they are true, has a lot of value.


 
Is there any way you could elaborate on that for me, please?


----------



## Frost (Apr 25, 2008)

What would you like for me to elaborate on specifically?


----------



## MattJ (Apr 25, 2008)

I believe MMAkid is looking for something along the lines of:

_Attack_      - poke to the eyes
_Response_  - opponent's hands come up to their face and head jerks backwards

_Attack_     - kick to the groin
_Response_ - opponent's hands go down, knees come together, head drops forward

Etc.

The problem is (as noted before), that there are simply too many variables, especially when striking, to be able to depend on these reactions to be consistent. This is where a combination of scenario training and pressure testing will give you a good idea of what techniques work reliably.


----------



## Doc (Apr 25, 2008)

MMAkid1 said:


> I will never be satisfied because I will never be complete in my knowledge. However, I do believe a kinesthetic knowledge of the body; including organs, muscles, nerves, and skeletal structure, as well as Psychologic understanding of the brain, combined with knowledge of the reaction of the brain to sufficient force or impact on nerves, pain receptors, and skeletal/muscular limitations, would be extremely beneficial. All I'm really asking is for a website on a kinesthetic and psychologic test on the reaction of the body to sufficient/extraenous force and the resulting reaction of the body's defensive mechanisms from forces on various areas of the subject.


There are none. I wish there were, but there is no collective information available for what you seek.


----------



## Doc (Apr 25, 2008)

MattJ said:


> I believe MMAkid is looking for something along the lines of:
> 
> _Attack_      - poke to the eyes
> _Response_  - opponent's hands come up to their face and head jerks backwards
> ...


Like you, I think we all know what he wants, he just doesn't want to accept the answer that there is no "simple" way to get the info he seeks.


----------



## DavidCC (Apr 25, 2008)

MMAkid1 said:


> All I'm really asking is for a website on a kinesthetic and psychologic test on the reaction of the body to sufficient/extraenous force and the resulting reaction of the body's defensive mechanisms from forces on various areas of the subject.


 

I'd settle for an expert who lived within a 100 miles.


----------



## DavidCC (Apr 25, 2008)

Doc said:


> Like you, I think we all know what he wants, he just doesn't want to accept the answer that there is no "simple" way to get the info he seeks.


 
Why don't you retire from that very dangerous job of yours, I'll retire fomr the dangerously boring job of mine, and lets build the website MMAKid is looking for.  Who's got some money to fund it? Beuler?


----------



## Doc (Apr 25, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> Why don't you retire from that very dangerous job of yours, I'll retire fomr the dangerously boring job of mine, and lets build the website MMAKid is looking for.  Who's got some money to fund it? Beuler?


Yeah, that's the ticket. No matter how he changes the question around, the answer is always the same. Everyone is looking for a shortcut to Antarctica. Problem is, there isn't one. 

On another note, when you coming back out Dave? Got some more material for you sir.

P.S. I'll retire if you take on a couple more daughters and grand daughters. Doesn't Kayla need a couple more big gangsters, uh I mean sisters?


----------



## DavidCC (Apr 25, 2008)

Doc said:


> Yeah, that's the ticket. No matter how he changes the question around, the answer is always the same. Everyone is looking for a shortcut to Antarctica. Problem is, there isn't one.
> 
> On another note, when you coming back out Dave? Got some more material for you sir.
> 
> P.S. I'll retire if you take on a couple more daughters and grand daughters. Doesn't Kayla need a couple more big gangsters, uh I mean sisters?


 
We are looking at a Califormia trip in June.  I have stipulated 2 things for my support of this trip:
1) we aren't staying with my sister-in-law
2) I get at least one full day with Doc.

everything else is negotiable.  WHat's June / July look like?  email me


----------



## MMAkid1 (Apr 28, 2008)

Thank you all for your wonderful insight. It is much appreciated, and I am thankful for all of your help. I understand that there is no manual or user guide to the reactions of the human body, so I am studying more now. Thank you all and I understand that there are no shortcuts.


----------



## MMAkid1 (Apr 28, 2008)

MattJ said:


> I believe MMAkid is looking for something along the lines of:
> 
> _Attack_      - poke to the eyes
> _Response_  - opponent's hands come up to their face and head jerks backwards
> ...


thats pretty much it. you basically hit the nail on the head there, sir.


----------



## MMAkid1 (Apr 28, 2008)

Frost said:


> What would you like for me to elaborate on specifically?


What did you study to get the knowledge you now have? Kinesiology?


----------



## Jdokan (Apr 28, 2008)

watch the 3 stooges...gives a good idea...:uhyeah:


----------



## Tames D (Apr 28, 2008)

MMAkid1 said:


> But then they don't want to train with me anymore.


Yeah, I know.I've lost more training partners that way :rofl:


----------

