# The Nation of Islam and Racism



## elder999 (Dec 16, 2008)

So I&#8217;ve been putting off posting from the theme started in  this thread. 

Frankly, the whole Hindu caste thing, while fascinating, is a difficult nut to crack-still not sure it&#8217;s racist, but it results in racism. I&#8217;ll hopefully have something coherent to post on it soon. I&#8217;ve also been a little to busy. For your amusement, though, and to give at least some equal time to something that&#8217;s obvious (and absurd) I figured I&#8217;d get to the Nation of Islam-not to be confused with conventional Islam, neither Shia, Sunni nor Sufi, but the group more commonly known as the _Black Muslims_.

A little background: the Nation of Islam was founded in 1931 by a man who&#8217;s a bit of a mystery, Wallace D. Fard, later, Wallace Fard Muhammad. Fard met a man named Elijah Poole, who became the _Honorable, Elijah Muhammad,_ and led the Nation of Islam until his death in 1975. Fard died in 1934-or later-more on this in a bit. In any case, Elijah Muhammad was the leader of the Nation for most of it&#8217;s history.

The basic tenet of the Nation of Islam is that _there is no God but Allah._ Unlike the Shia, who add to this _"and Mohammad is his prophet,"_ the Nation adds, _*"who came in the person of W.D. Fard"*_. So the first bit of craziness, not racist-just garden variety religious gobbledygook, is that they believe that Fard was God incarnate, a madhi, or messiah. 

However, once one delves into their cosmology and theology, things get more than a little weird, and step right off the black-Nazi boat. Most of these things can be found in a wealth of documents and public statements-for documents, there are _Message to the Blackman in America_, and _The Supreme Wisdom_. These books teach thing like:

*
The black man is the original, and only true human being.

The white man was created by a black mad-scientist (?!!) named Yakub, through a form of birth control, and was taught to deceive the original man through tricks and lies, so that they could divide them, conquer them, and rule over them.

That the white man is a "blue-eyed devil."

The black man is genetically superior to the white man.*

The Nation also teaches other things-like complete separation of the races, but it also teaches independence, economic responsibility, and good citizenship. Like any reasonably successful religion, it gives order to some people&#8217;s lives, and there are many good people who practice this religion, and are good citizens. It also has a history of teaching divisiveness and hate. Some of its most famous members repudiated its teachings, and joined mainstream Islam: Malcom X and Muhammad Ali for starters, and rejected the racist teachings of the Nation of Islam-but only after publicly believing and saying some very hateful things that they later regretted. Some, like Louis Farakhan and his followers, are still preaching crazy stuff like this every day-Farakhan is even regularly on public access cable in Detroit, Chicago and Denver. 

They also believe a lot of other crazy stuff, like Fard didn&#8217;t really die in 1935 (God, sorry, _Allah_, can&#8217;t die) he was transported to another plane in a spaceship. Of course, their believing that Fard is God is heretical to the rest of Islam, which, BTW, teaches that all races are equal.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 16, 2008)

"he was transported to another plane in a spaceship."
I've heard that one before, but they were referring to someone else.....


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## Big Don (Dec 16, 2008)

Just goes to show there are nuts in every race and religion


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2008)

It's like a game of consequences, you keep one people down and someone from those people will find something that raises them up to not just being equal but superior. It's not sane but it is understandable. Put yourself in the place of a black man who was considered the lowest of the low, not even human and someone comes along preaching that actually you are better than the people who treat you so badly, it's an attractive idea. It gives hope and thats a very powerful emotion to use.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 17, 2008)

Religions are a great source of hope and wisdom...the only problem is that less than perfect people believe in them.

The idea of racism in the Black Muslim group, IMO, came about as a defense against the racism against the black people in society.  It started as a way of combating the hardships that were already in place.  But, instead of teaching how to overlook race and live as humans, it takes the opposite side of the arguments, fighting fire with fire, so to speak.

As far as the other crazy babble, I've noticed more and more often that other religions are starting to jump on this bandwagon...and this may be more of a topic for another thread...but I've noticed that religions that claim all of these strange and crazy ideas are usually started by 1 person...whereas the more traditional religions were started by a group of people, sometimes centering around 1 person.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> Religions are a great source of hope and wisdom...the only problem is that less than perfect people believe in them.
> 
> The idea of racism in the Black Muslim group, IMO, came about as a defense against the racism against the black people in society. It started as a way of combating the hardships that were already in place. But, instead of teaching how to overlook race and live as humans, it takes the opposite side of the arguments, fighting fire with fire, so to speak.
> 
> As far as the other crazy babble, I've noticed more and more often that other religions are starting to jump on this bandwagon...and this may be more of a topic for another thread...but I've noticed that religions that claim all of these strange and crazy ideas are usually started by 1 person...whereas the more traditional religions were started by a group of people, sometimes centering around 1 person.


 
I wonder if with all the new technology we have now which in previous times woud have been regarded as either miracles or science fiction depending on your mindset, that religions/cults need ever more fantastic claims to gain followers? I know the followers believe but do you think the orginators do? Did Fard really believe what he preached or was it something he could persuade others of so they'd follow him?


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 17, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I wonder if with all the new technology we have now which in previous times woud have been regarded as either miracles or science fiction depending on your mindset, that religions/cults need ever more fantastic claims to gain followers? I know the followers believe but do you think the orginators do? Did Fard really believe what he preached or was it something he could persuade others of so they'd follow him?


 
It sounds like from the OP that the believers adopted Fard as "God", but I'm not sure if that's fact.  But that would be interesting to know....could clear up quite a few things, really.

If Fard is the one who came up with that, I'm not sure if he would have believed it or not.  I think if we knew how he acted in everday society, we would be better able to tell.  And I'm not really sure which would be worse, whether he wanted others to believe that he was "God" or if he actually believed that he was.  

I think that if someone wants to believe something hard enough, they come up with reasons to believe it.  It may not take much persuading on the part of someone like Fard.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 17, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> It's like a game of consequences, you keep one people down and someone from those people will find something that raises them up to not just being equal but superior. It's not sane but it is understandable. Put yourself in the place of a black man who was considered the lowest of the low, not even human and someone comes along preaching that actually you are better than the people who treat you so badly, it's an attractive idea. It gives hope and thats a very powerful emotion to use.


You'd think that a generation of preferential treatment, reserved placement for schooling, being hired despite being unqualified for the job, free tutoring, and all that might have helped change things......


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 17, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> "he was transported to another plane in a spaceship."
> I've heard that one before, but they were referring to someone else.....


 
This sounds an awful lot like Scientology to me...


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## punisher73 (Dec 17, 2008)

> *The black man is the original, and only true human being.
> 
> The white man was created by a black mad-scientist (?!!) named Yakub, through a form of birth control, and was taught to deceive the original man through tricks and lies, so that they could divide them, conquer them, and rule over them.*


 
Political propaganda that has no basis in reality or history.  It's a sad state of affairs, but I can't think of one predominately black nation that is a first world country (industrialized).  Look at all of the turmoil and blacks killing blacks in many African countries, even in our own country.  How does the religion actually address the worldwide problem?

Spouting racism as a religious idea is wrong on so many levels (not just including Nation of Islam, but all others as well, like Aryan Brotherhood, etc.)


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## Big Don (Dec 17, 2008)

I'm guessing the NOI isn't real popular with Iranian Muslims. Iran being an Aryan nation and all...
Hell, they should be hated by all the other Muslims, guessing again, but, Arabs aren't black, nor are the WHOLE lot of Muslims in Indonesia, India, etc...


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## elder999 (Dec 17, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> It's like a game of consequences, you keep one people down and someone from those people will find something that raises them up to not just being equal but superior. It's not sane but it is understandable. Put yourself in the place of a black man who was considered the lowest of the low, not even human and someone comes along preaching that actually you are better than the people who treat you so badly, it's an attractive idea. It gives hope and thats a very powerful emotion to use.


 
Thats one view-the other being that if Fard had preached that the black people were at the lower in society because they belonged there, how many converts would he have gotten? If he had preached that they were where they were because it was their fault, how many converts would he have gotten. The fact is, preaching that _youre special,_ or _you can become special *through* us_, is pretty common to religions-in this case, though, it was spun in a way specific to the black mans situation, and with some success. In the end, its sort of like Fard said, _Youre Gods chosen people,_-no, wait, that cant be right:lfao:




punisher73 said:


> Political propaganda that has no basis in reality or history. It's a sad state of affairs, but I can't think of one predominately black nation that is a first world country (industrialized). Look at all of the turmoil and blacks killing blacks in many African countries, even in our own country. How does the religion actually address the worldwide problem?


 
Its also worth pointing out that Fards racial teachings turned around a few thoughts that were common at the time, when eugenics was very popular, and there was a preoccupation with race in a variety of fields. The common (at the time) white supremacist idea that black people were somehow less evolved than whites was turned around so that black people become the original uncorrupted peoples of the world and whites were defined as a degenerate offshoot.




BrandonLucas said:


> It sounds like from the OP that the believers adopted Fard as "God", but I'm not sure if that's fact. But that would be interesting to know....could clear up quite a few things, really..


 
The idea that Fard was Allah incarnate came after he died-er, _disappeared_, er-I mean, after his transport to the Mother Plane :lolrobably a revelation from Elijah Muhammad:




> from, *Message to the Blackman in America*





> Allah (God) came to us from the Holy City Mecca, Arabia, in 1930. He used the name Wallace D. Fard, often signing it W.D. Fard. In the third year (1933), He signed His name W.F. Muhammad, which stands for Wallace Fard Muhammad. He came alone. He began teaching us the knowledge of ourselves, of God and the devil, of the measurement of the earth, of other planets, and of the civilizations of some of the planets other than earth.


 
Fard himself is something of a mystery, in terms of his identity, race, and disposition. The FBI investigated and actually think he was one of two men, either of Polynesian or half-Indian descent, possibly Pakistani or Turkish. He pretty much disappeared in 1934 or 1935, with some saying he went to Mecca, some saying he died, some saying Elijah Muhammad killed him, and official NOI teaching being that he is on the Mother Plane.




Bob Hubbard said:


> You'd think that a generation of preferential treatment, reserved placement for schooling, being hired despite being unqualified for the job, free tutoring, and all that might have helped change things......


 
Has it, though?




Big Don said:


> I'm guessing the NOI isn't real popular with Iranian Muslims. Iran being an Aryan nation and all





Big Don said:


> Hell, they should be hated by all the other Muslims, guessing again, but, Arabs aren't black, nor are the WHOLE lot of Muslims in Indonesia, India, etc...


 
The teaching that Fard was Allah incarnate is a heresy to mainstream Islam, and the NOI isnt real popular with any of them. Of course, a great deal of black Africa is Muslim, so


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 17, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Bob Hubbard View Post
> You'd think that a generation of preferential treatment, reserved placement for schooling, being hired despite being unqualified for the job, free tutoring, and all that might have helped change things......
> 
> ...


I'm in the middle of something that, when/if I post it, I'll be crucified over it....half the staff doesn't want it posted because it'll take a week to wade through all the flames....I'm trying to nail down some details and confirm a few points now.  Be after New Years at the earliest.


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## elder999 (Dec 17, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm in the middle of something that, when/if I post it, I'll be crucified over it....half the staff doesn't want it posted because it'll take a week to wade through all the flames....I'm trying to nail down some details and confirm a few points now. Be after New Years at the earliest.


 

I'm a quiver with antici...........*pation*. :lol:


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## theletch1 (Dec 17, 2008)

Elder, just out of pure, malicious curiosity... did you post this to simply provide information and spark discussion OR did you post it as a social experiment to see how many folks would find ways of justifying the teachings of the NOI that would have crucified (pun intended) a christian movement that had something akin to the same belief system?  I've become rather intrigued with the way your mind works since you've been on site and either avenue wouldn't really surprise me.  Good thread either way and informative. :asian:


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## elder999 (Dec 17, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Elder, just out of pure, malicious curiosity... did you post this to simply provide information and spark discussion OR did you post it as a social experiment to see how many folks would find ways of justifying the teachings of the NOI that would have crucified (pun intended) a christian movement that had something akin to the same belief system? I've become rather intrigued with the way your mind works since you've been on site and either avenue wouldn't really surprise me. Good thread either way and informative. :asian:


 
While I'll admit some curiosity for the latter point of view you've expressed, as well as curiosity about negative reactions, my motivation was simply to spark discussion. As I said in the "LDS Church and Racism" thread, I'd decided to make my religious project of the year one on racism within religions. I started with Mormonism because I read the _Book of Mormon_, looked for some things I was already aware of, and that was what sparked my interest in that particular vein. I'd decided to share parts of  it  as it progresses-pretty much to spark discussion and provide  information. 

I've been looking at the Hindu caste system; it's very frustrating.

I knew about the Nation of Islam from a lot of different avenues-my dad dealt with them quite a bit, both as a civil-rights activist in New York in the 60's and 70's, and as Senior Chaplain for the NYS prison system.I've also known a few, and had "the rap" aimed my way a few times. Even did martial arts with a few "Fruit of Islam" members-that is the NOI's "paramilitary" security force.

 A fellow MartialTalker who was interested pinged me a while ago about further things from my project, but  I've been kind of bogged down between the rest of my life and the whole caste system thing, and decided to post the readily available info on the NOI-they're an easy target in this regard, as so much of their doctrine is clearly racist-not to mention more than a little kooky. I'll probably get to Southern Baptists after I've got a handle on the caste system thing, though they have repudiated and apologized for their racist past. I'm also going to take a look at the Catholic Church, though their history is a little more subtle in this regard. I'll be looking at the Episcopal Church-the church I grew up in, and the one my father, grandfather and great-grandfather were priests in-though, again, they are more subtle (in some ways) in this regard. I expect I'll get in some of the more fringe sects that are outright racists, like the Christian Identity movement, but, again,they are pretty easy targets.

I'm also open to suggestions for sects to look at......


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## theletch1 (Dec 18, 2008)

Thank you for that reply, Elder.  I was raised Souther Baptist but rarely did we ever actually go to church.  My question was sparked by the fact that I'd recently read the "How PC are you?" thread and got to thinking that many otherwise stable and rational people will avoid some conversations for fear of being considered racist and others will vehemently defend a position or group for no other reason than the PC "handbook" says so.  I digress, though, as I risk derailing your thread.  I look forward to reading more of your project as the year progresses.


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## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2008)

elder, I'd be very interested in your observations on the caste system having run across problems in the UK with it in the past, unsolved sadly. However it may be easier if you investigated it as the Indian caste system rather than the Hindu as its also carried on by the Christians and the Muslims? I don't think it's rascist in it's self though there's a great deal of prejudice against people from the south of India with their darker skin! 

There's still plenty of British people around who lived and worked in India before Independance who have written of their experiences there which may help? Many were administrators, police etc so outside the system but able to observe it accurately.


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## elder999 (Dec 18, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> elder, I'd be very interested in your observations on the caste system having run across problems in the UK with it in the past, unsolved sadly. However it may be easier if you investigated it as the Indian caste system rather than the Hindu as its also carried on by the Christians and the Muslims? I don't think it's rascist in it's self though there's a great deal of prejudice against people from the south of India with their darker skin!


 
Since its foundations are in Hinduism, and my project is on 'religious doctrine and racism," that's what I'll call it. Otherwise, I've got material on everything you've spoken of-you're absolutely right.

That's why it's so damned frustrating to wrap up in a coherent ball....


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## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Since its foundations are in Hinduism, and my project is on 'religious doctrine and racism," that's what I'll call it. Otherwise, I've got material on everything you've spoken of-you're absolutely right.
> 
> That's why it's so damned frustrating to wrap up in a coherent ball....


 

Ah I think you've hit the Indian problem! Now you know why Great Britain didn't contest Indian Independance and why so many Brits fell in love with a country where religions are mixed up, most beliefs are paradoxes and there's hundreds of gods! It's possibly the most fascinating place on earth and nobody even the Indians themselves say they understand it!.

I have a 'foster' daughter I support in India, she and her family are Buddhists but with an Indian twist! I wish you luck with your study!


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## sjansen (Dec 19, 2008)

What does the hindu caste system have to do with islam? Hindus are not islamic. Most of the muslims in India went to West and East Pakistan(Bangledesh) when the countries gained independence. The caste system is not racist, but elitist. Not sure what the first sentence had to do with the rest. The untouchables or Dalits as there now known are repressed due to their lineage. Much like we do in many of the martial arts.


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## elder999 (Dec 19, 2008)

sjansen said:


> What does the hindu caste system have to do with islam?


 
Nothing.



sjansen said:


> The caste system is not racist, but elitist.


 
Not sure I agree with that-I'll figure it out for myself, thanks.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 19, 2008)

Maybe some of these can be spun into separate threads?  I'd be interested in the Hindu discussion as I've slowly been looking at the religion.


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## elder999 (Dec 19, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Maybe some of these can be spun into separate threads? I'd be interested in the Hindu discussion as I've slowly been looking at the religion.


 
Well, as I posted, that's the idea-one thread per sect. Some may not make it here-interesting ones will. The only reason Hinduism and the caste system got mentioned is because I've been (re)looking at it for the whole year, and I'm not quite done yet-it's what held me up from posting earlier.....

....and the Nation of Islam has almost _nothing_ to do with Islam, but that might even be another thread.....:lfao:


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 20, 2008)

A;; religions have good and bad points. Like with islam they have some really righteous ideas. But I cant get with the whole Allah(Oak Tree) worship thing. An what about that Kaaba stone they worship whats that all about anyway. As for fundamentalist Islam. Fighting wars an what have you. It reminds me of the crusades when Christians use to kill Muslims and Jews all across Africa,Yisrael and the middle east. As for the Nation Islam you summed it up in a Nut shell buddy. An lets not talk about their beliefs of Aliens and space ships...The Mother ship is gonna come back an take the good muslims away. Lol...Some of Elijah Mohammed teachings are pretty out there t.v. Has anyone ever heard of the Five Percenters. Well the Five Percent Nation is an off shoot of NOI. Clarence X separated from the NOI and started the Nation of Five percenters. Summary the Black is Gods on earth and ten percent of white people know the truth and hiding it from eightyfive percent of the world. Only five percent of black people know their gods. etc etc. There are also white religious groups who teach something similiar. I met some. This one guy was trying to convince that the black was created first. But not as a human but as the beast on six day. An then came adam(The white man). His philosphy is pretty out there. Every ancient empire that existed in Africa he belives was really white. Such as ancient Egyptians and Kushites etc etc.

Its really interesting. But as for NOI idea of separation. They may not be a bad thing. America should make them a nation like they did with Israel and give them land in Africa to start their own country. An then after that deport all blacks to that country who live in Africa. After that is done whites should be deported back to Europe and leave America, South America, Canada and North Pole to Mexicans, Native Americans, and Eskimos. After all this land belongs to those people anyway. Not Europeans or blacks. I mean look at history. Blacks were enslave by whites. They are still oppressed by whites. Whites go to Africa and still ivory,gold and diamonds. They also mine oil and other natural resources.If the races were to separate blacks would only have to worry about the evil they do themselves. instead getting hit four ways coming going and staying there as well as being born under white rule. Let the black man have his own land an country an govern himself. Swim or drown.

Separation may not be a bad thing. Lets not forget
Sean Bell
Jena Six
Hurricane Katrina
Separate but not equal
Racial Profiling
Blacks have to work three times as hard to get ahead

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109258/Majority-Americans-Say-Racism-Against-Blacks-Widespread.aspx

As for the Hindu Caste system sure its racist. Study Hinduism and its origins! The Caste system is written about in the laws of Manu. Which were created by Aryans. You can read this in Vedas. They Vedas are written in Sanscrit which is Indo-European language. The reason its Indo-European is because the Aryans were actually European. Mainly Greeks who end up interbreeding with many Indians from india. They set the caste system up so when ever Greeks or Aryans wanted to go India they would be at top of caste system. An their descendants will be at top due to their lighter skin complexion. Ironic how the gods of the hindus are black though?

They have black Hindus who are called Untouchables. I bet you won't see them on TV in the movies. No No. But any way if you doubt me look up the word Aryan.

The Darker you are lower on the caste system you are. Hinduism was founded by the Aryans or sons of Yefet(Japheth) Which in short are gentiles. Also food for the thought those Askenazi Jews who call themselves semitic are also Gentiles and are not hebrews or semtic. Want proof asked me?

*Pictures of Untouchables* Those who are outcaste: Meaning lower than the Caste system:


http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature1/images/zm_zoomin.1.3.jpg
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn.../2008/02/27/amber_w_untouchables_in_india.jpg

http://www.itsabouttimebpp.com/Announcements/images/dalits.jpg

http://www.compassionbb.org/imgs/Projects-1-20.jpg

http://www.unicef.org/sapc08/images/profile4.jpg







Type in Black Untouchables from India or Black Dalit of India


Who is the one who starts all discrimination across the entire world. Who was the one responsible for Genocide of Native American and Slavery of Africans brought to America's. Who is the one who cause two world wars. Who is the one responsible for Divide and conqueror against great empires. Those are real racist. An these Untoucables are out caste because they are blacker than Barak Obama and most of them are even Blacker than Michelle Obama! If you look like Wesley Snipes and moved to India the Hindu's will hate you because of Aryan Caste System. Didn't something similair happen with the bible such as the curse of cain or the curse of ham? Don't I remember the Jews and Mormons saying that blackpeople were curse with dark skin thats why they had to be oppressed. Talmud says black people are evil and have to be enslaved. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism

_Hind&#363;_ is the Persian name for the Indus River, first encountered in the Old Persian word _Hindu_ (h&#601;ndu), corresponding to Vedic Sanskrit _Sindhu_, the Indus River.[10] The Rig Veda mentions the land of the Indo-Aryans as _Sapta Sindhu_ (the land of the seven rivers in northwestern South Asia, one of them being the Indus). This corresponds to _Hapta H&#601;ndu_ in the _Avesta_ (_Vendidad or Videvdad_ 1.18)&#8212;the sacred scripture of Zoroastrianism. The term was used for those who lived in the Indian subcontinent on or beyond the "Sindhu".[11] In Islam the Arabic texts - _al-Hind_ (the Hind) also refers to 'the land of the people of modern day India'.[12]
The Persian term (Middle Persian _Hind&#363;k_, New Persian _Hind&#363;_) entered India with the Delhi Sultanate and appears in South Indian and Kashmiri texts from at least 1323 CE,[13] and increasingly so during British rule. Since the end of the 18th century the word has been used as an umbrella term for most of the religious, spiritual, and philosophical traditions of the sub-continent, excluding the distinct religions of Sikhism, Buddhism, and Jainism.
The term _Hindu_ was introduced to the English. It generally denotes the religious, philosophical, and cultural traditions native to India.[14]




*My Question?*

Now asked your self who is the real Racist?





elder999 said:


> So I&#8217;ve been putting off posting from the theme started in this thread.
> 
> Frankly, the whole Hindu caste thing, while fascinating, is a difficult nut to crack-still not sure it&#8217;s racist, but it results in racism. I&#8217;ll hopefully have something coherent to post on it soon. I&#8217;ve also been a little to busy. For your amusement, though, and to give at least some equal time to something that&#8217;s obvious (and absurd) I figured I&#8217;d get to the Nation of Islam-not to be confused with conventional Islam, neither Shia, Sunni nor Sufi, but the group more commonly known as the _Black Muslims_.
> 
> ...


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 20, 2008)

> America should make them a nation like they did with Israel and give them land in Africa to start their own country.



See Liberia "Founded as a colony in 1822 by freed slaves from the United States,".
Oh, Lincoln was all in favor of shipping every last black person out of the country.
Israel btw, was created by the UN and Britain. Not the US.



> Blacks were enslave by whites. They are still oppressed by whites.


First part - true.  Last US Slave was legally freed in 1865. 143 years ago.
Second part - According to Dr. Cosby and Mr. Fuller, they oppress themselves. Who am I to argue with Coz?



> Let the black man have his own land an country an govern himself. Swim or drown.



Liberia - civil war, corruption, total mess
Somalia - poverty, ruled by warlords, piracy.

For more, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa#Territories_and_regions


It's been my conclusion that the great majority of the "give them X" ideas comes from the idea that someone deserves a handout and implies that without it, there's no hope for them. It usually carries the idea that future handouts will be needed because the receiver somehow deserves that too.  I don't owe black, white, yellow, red or blue America anything. Let them earn it like I do.

At least the street squeegee bum is trying to earn his buck.


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2008)

Yoshiyahu, show me the part in the Talmud where it says black people are evil.
Are you posing as Jewish or are you frum?

Hinduism
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/history/history_1.shtml


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## theletch1 (Dec 20, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> See Liberia "Founded as a colony in 1822 by freed slaves from the United States,".
> Oh, Lincoln was all in favor of shipping every last black person out of the country.
> Israel btw, was created by the UN and Britain. Not the US.
> 
> ...


I really have to wonder, Bob, if that's the case (in bolding). I think a lot of the "give them their own country" mentality is more of an "out of sight out of mind" kind of thing.  I see it along the lines of my ex wife and my son.  He was a handful and she couldn't control/wouldn't control him.  One sunny Sunday afternoon a couple of years ago she shows up at the dojo with my son and a bag of clothes and says "He's all yours.  I can handle him anymore".  Now, Logan is a great kid when you take the time to integrate him into a stable, loving home as Erica and I have done.  My ex followed the concept of giving him his own country by having the mentality of "giving" him to me.  I don't think it's so much about needing handouts as it is just getting them out of the house so you don't have to deal with them.

As for giving the NOI their own country... where?  They are Americans and THIS is their country.  Their belief system is no crazier than many others in the world.  What sets them apart, I believe is a heavy activist/militant sector that craves (and gets) tons of media attention.  It's that sector, the fundamentalist sector, of the NOI that are the root of the problems with that group.  Fundamentalism within any religion is usually a bad thing, IMO.


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2008)

Yoshiyahu, you need to tell your Talmud from your Torah and also read the commentaries. Life and Judaism has moved on considerably since the time such stuff was written, what was thought of thousands of years ago have long since been discussed and ruled as inhumane and cruel. You make it sound as if we were still in the time of the Pharoahs.

Talking of the Pharoahs, it's no coincidence that the Jewish people took forty years to get from Egypt to Israel, they had to get the slave mentality out of their minds and prepare them to be a free people. Merely saying hey, off you go you're free, doesn't prepare slaves to take control of their own lives and I think this may be a big part of the problem in America. I don't know, I'm surmising as I don't live there but I imagine a few generations of slavery can breed in a type of Stockholm syndrome among people, like battered wives who can't leave their husbands and actually believe it's their fault.

The problems in Africa are many and tragic, much of it does come about from colonisation by white countries. The land was carved up so there were unnatural borders, tribes were dispersed and in some cases wiped out, ancient religions replaced forcibly by Christianity. The people again were led into slavery and a lifestyle not natural to them. Then independance was given, freedom with no preparation. there were plenty of people ready to capitilise on this and take over as dictators and plenty of western countries willing to supply the arms needed for this takeovers.

However for us to come over all superior and say well look at the mess the black man has made is wrong, G-d knows we make enough messes. Look at the last two world wars and look at the Africans that died in them to help us.


To get out of the mess we are all in, you have to start at the beginning - in the primary schools, with good education designed to really educate people, all people, so they can think for themselves, they have confidence in their abilities to work and make their way through life. This is for everyone, no one section of society gets a better education than another, it's why I believe education must be free, paid for by society as a whole for the benefit of society as a whole. It's the investment of a lifetime!

If you want succesful African countries I suggest you look at Botswana and Mauritius.


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## elder999 (Dec 20, 2008)

Bob Hubbard;1089134See Liberia "Founded as a colony in 1822 by freed slaves from the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States" said:
			
		

> United States[/URL],".
> Oh, Lincoln was all in favor of shipping every last black person out of the country.


 
See Sierra Leone, as well. he-he....Ya need to read a little more of Mr. Lincoln-he was in favor of that at first, but, since it wasn't viable, was more disposed towards ....._encouraging_ them to leave. If that didn't work, well, the country was still going to need people to pick apples and cut grapes. Remember that. "pick apples and cut grapes.



Bob Hubbard said:


> First part - true. Last US Slave was legally freed in 1865. 143 years ago.
> Second part - According to Dr. Cosby and Mr. Fuller, they oppress themselves. Who am I to argue with Coz?


 
I'll get to this elsewhere, Bob. _Hey, you got peanut butter on my chocolate!_:lfao:




Bob Hubbard said:


> Liberia - civil war, corruption, total mess
> Somalia - poverty, ruled by warlords, piracy.


 
Not sure that Somalia qualifies as a "give them X' sort of thing....



			
				Tez said:
			
		

> Yoshiyahu, show me the part in the Talmud where it says black people are evil.


 
Nowhere, really. Modern interpretation has led to the curse of Ham being  enslavement-Ham's evil was that he looked at Noah's butt when he was drunk, and laughed about it.  Black people were thought of as _Hamitic_, all of which has about as much Biblical validity as the Rapture. Ditto the mark of Cain being blackness.....




			
				Tez said:
			
		

> Are you posing as Jewish or are you frum?


 
I think that'd be _Jews for Jesus,_  which makes him _meshuggeneh frummer_:lol:



			
				Yoshiyahu said:
			
		

> Now asked your self who is the real Racist


 
_Yahoo!....._ :lol:

Back on topic.

The member of the Nation of Islam that most older  people are familiar with is Malcom Little, who would become Malcom X upon his conversion in 1947. Members of the NOI sometimes take the "X" in place of what they-often correctly-call their "slave name," and take that in place of the unkown name that is lost to them. Lately, though, they just take quasi-Arabic names....

Anyway, it was Malcom X who was responsible for most of the growth of the NOI, starting 100 temples around the country between 1952 and 1964. It was also he who publicly made some of the more infamous and hateful racist statements, and gave a public face of the NOI to white America.  Interestingly, his disillusionment with Elijah Muhammed, and his _study and embrace of conventional Islam,_ led to his leaving the NOI and renouncing its racist teachings before he died. Malcom was good friends with Wallace Dean Mohammad, the son of Elijah Mohammad. In 1975, when ELijah Mohammad died, W.D. Mohammad inherited the leadership of the NOI. He, too, rejected its racist doctrine, its deification of Fard, and embraced conventional Islam-he changed the name of the NOI to the World Community of al Islam. He rejected _and_ explained that the idea that "whites were devils" had been necessary to wake people up from social brainwashing. (You see, it wasn't too long ago that a lot of black people simply believed that white people _were_ better than they were, since everything they saw and felt told them that-but I'll get to this elsewhere, *Bob* :lol) When these changes took place, the man who everyone is familiar with took over the NOI name, and kept all of its original doctrine. I'm speaking, of course, of the current leader of the NOI, Louis Farrakhan....

...interstingly, though, the World Community of al-Islami in the Westhas and continues to accept white memebers. It's embrace of mainstream Islam, mainstream Islam's acknowledgement of it, are complete.


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## theletch1 (Dec 20, 2008)

Clarification request here, Elder, as my eyes crossed reading that last post. 
It sounds like, from that post, that the NOI and it's original teaches nearly died out as the leadership accepted mainstream Islam as their faith.  Then Farrakahn comes along and restores the original teachings?  If that's the case I have to wonder why the membership are so flexible to bouncing around within the belief system of their religion when so many others are still wed to beliefs from a few thousand years ago.


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## elder999 (Dec 20, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Clarification request here, Elder, as my eyes crossed reading that last post.
> It sounds like, from that post, that the NOI and it's original teaches nearly died out as the leadership accepted mainstream Islam as their faith. Then Farrakahn comes along and restores the original teachings? If that's the case I have to wonder why the membership are so flexible to bouncing around within the belief system of their religion when so many others are still wed to beliefs from a few thousand years ago.


 

Yep. It's pretty simple when you look at it. W.D. Mohammed embraces mainstream Islam, and takes some members with him, and Farrakhan hangs on to the old name and the old doctrine, and takes *most* of the members with him. Some people were open to and willing to change, and most clung to their original belief and dogma.


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Yep. It's pretty simple when you look at it. W.D. Mohammed embraces mainstream Islam, and takes some members with him, and Farrakhan hangs on to the old name and the old doctrine, and takes *most* of the members with him. Some people were open to and willing to change, and most clung to their original belief and dogma.


 

Change is scary! any change, try moving things around in an office and there's an outcry by the workers. A major change in a religion is bound to cause even more of an stir, most people prefer the status quo rather than accept something new. Only the open minded and brave can admit they've been wrong and accept different beliefs.


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## Big Don (Dec 20, 2008)

You have to be kind of amazed that as much time as Farrakhan has spent in the middle east he hasn't been killed for heresy.


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2008)

Big Don said:


> You have to be kind of amazed that as much time as Farrakhan has spent in the middle east he hasn't been killed for heresy.


 
Where does he go? I know little about him.


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## sjansen (Dec 20, 2008)

"As for the Hindu Caste system sure its racist. Study Hinduism and its origins! The Caste system is written about in the laws of Manu. Which were created by Aryans. You can read this in Vedas. They Vedas are written in Sanscrit which is Indo-European language. The reason its Indo-European is because the Aryans were actually European. Mainly Greeks who end up interbreeding with many Indians from india. They set the caste system up so when ever Greeks or Aryans wanted to go India they would be at top of caste system. An their descendants will be at top due to their lighter skin complexion. Ironic how the gods of the hindus are black though?"

The Aryans were from southern Russia which means they had little European influence and even this is debatable. Many historians believe that they came from persia. There is no evidence that they were from Greece either written or genetic. They moved into the Indus Valley after the Harrapans. We don't know if the Harrapans left due to force, driven out by the Aryans, or if they left due to internal strife (due to the fact we still cannot read the harrapan language). The caste system was set up from the Aryan cultural practices which seem to be established prior to their moving into the region which negates any ethnic bias. The harrapan who stayed in the region were probably placed into the bottom cast as they were mostly slave due to being a conquered people.


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## theletch1 (Dec 20, 2008)

sjansen said:


> "As for the Hindu Caste system sure its racist. Study Hinduism and its origins! The Caste system is written about in the laws of Manu. Which were created by Aryans. You can read this in Vedas. They Vedas are written in Sanscrit which is Indo-European language. The reason its Indo-European is because the Aryans were actually European. Mainly Greeks who end up interbreeding with many Indians from india. They set the caste system up so when ever Greeks or Aryans wanted to go India they would be at top of caste system. An their descendants will be at top due to their lighter skin complexion. Ironic how the gods of the hindus are black though?"
> 
> The Aryans were from southern Russia which means they had little European influence and even this is debatable. Many historians believe that they came from persia. There is no evidence that they were from Greece either written or genetic. They moved into the Indus Valley after the Harrapans. We don't know if the Harrapans left due to force, driven out by the Aryans, or if they left due to internal strife (due to the fact we still cannot read the harrapan language). The caste system was set up from the Aryan cultural practices which seem to be established prior to their moving into the region which negates any ethnic bias. The harrapan who stayed in the region were probably placed into the bottom cast as they were mostly slave due to being a conquered people.


Good post, Scott, but this particular thread is regarding the Nation of Islam and it's teachings.  Elder will be adding his thread on the Hindu caste system some time after the new year and I, for one, am looking forward to it.  I look forward to your contributions to that thread as well.


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