# British Priest says that "thou shal not steal" is more of a "guideline".



## Archangel M (Dec 22, 2009)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091222/ap_on_re_eu/eu_britain_shoplifting_ok


> LONDON &#8211; For a priest in northern England, the commandment that dictates "thou shalt not steal" isn't exactly written in stone.
> 
> The Rev. Tim Jones caused an uproar by telling his congregation that it is sometimes acceptable for desperate people to shoplift &#8212; as long as they do it at large national chain stores, rather than small, family businesses.


Causing quite a stir.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 22, 2009)

Cake or Death?  :lol:

Individual C of E clergy are ever good at finding ways to incite thought and provoke reactions on social issues.


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## mook jong man (Dec 22, 2009)

No thanks , look what happened to the last people that shoplifted over there.


They got a one way trip to Australia.


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## K-man (Dec 22, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> No thanks , look what happened to the last people that shoplifted over there.
> 
> 
> They got a one way trip to Australia.


Thank God for that, otherwise I would probably be a Pom. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Seriously though, how bloody stupid can someone be? Who does he think owns the big chains? It's the Mum and Dad investors or their superannuation companies in the main. 
I ran small retail businesses for many years and handed every shoplifter that I caught (probably about 5%) over to the police. They were the pits in my opinion. Thieving parasites. Nothing stolen was essential for life, just stuff they didn't want to pay for!!


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## grydth (Dec 22, 2009)

Well, one can only give thanks in this holiday season that all of the nutty clergymen are over in the UK, and that we haven't any religious nuts in the USA. None. Not a one .:angel:

This fellow has untapped comedic potential..... we could use his (divinely inspired, of course)  new editions of the remainder of the Ten Commandments.


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## Ken Morgan (Dec 22, 2009)

Lets be honest, stealing an Ipod because you don't want to pay is a great deal different then stealing a loaf of bread, (ie, Les Misérables), because you can't pay.

Yes, social programs, welfare, family, etc, etc all aside... 

but if it ever came down to seeing my children go hungry or stealing in order to feed them, I'm stealing and doing whatever I have to to put food on the table.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Dec 22, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> Lets be honest, stealing an Ipod because you don't want to pay is a great deal different then stealing a loaf of bread, (ie, Les Misérables), because you can't pay.
> 
> Yes, social programs, welfare, family, etc, etc all aside...
> 
> but if it ever came down to seeing my children go hungry or stealing in order to feed them, I'm stealing and doing whatever I have to to put food on the table.


 
That's fine, and understandable.  

But taking Biblical Commandments and saying things like this are incompatible.


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## Ken Morgan (Dec 22, 2009)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> That's fine, and understandable.
> 
> But taking Biblical Commandments and saying things like this are incompatible.


 
Using the New testament, the Old testament, and/or the Koran as a point of reference to justify various unsavory actions, has been occurring for millennium. That he referenced the bible at all, should be irrelevant to the argument. What he said is no better or worse simply because of his point of reference. 

I can equally reference Ayn Rand or Charles Dickens to justify other actions one may find disturbing. That I didnt use religious text doesnt make the arguments any more or less valid.


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## Archangel M (Dec 23, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> Using the New testament, the Old testament, and/or the Koran as a point of reference to justify various unsavory actions, has been occurring for millennium. That he referenced the bible at all, should be irrelevant to the argument. What he said is no better or worse simply because of his point of reference.
> 
> I can equally reference Ayn Rand or Charles Dickens to justify other actions one may find disturbing. That I didnt use religious text doesnt make the arguments any more or less valid.


 
Difference being..you are not a priest.


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## Senjojutsu (Dec 23, 2009)

One again this must be a modern English cultural weakness thing, a further example of the decline of the once-mighty British Empire.
:rules:

Back over here across the pond the most famous of our Christian preachers actually follow all of *The Ten Commandments* religiously.

Okay, maybe nine out of the ten religiously  with that adultery one  well nine out of ten aint bad folks.

Me, I always think about Mel Brooks parody of playing Moses coming down from the mountain with three tablets shouting he has FIFTEEN COMMANDMENTS  unfortunately he drops one of the tablets shattering it against a rock  and then Moses proclaims TEN. TEN COMMANDMENTS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TAtRCJIqnk 

So what were the other five ?????


Now regarding this priest - I choose to quote the famous French author François-Anatole Thibault (1844-1924) that the law, _"in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets and to steal bread."_


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## Ken Morgan (Dec 23, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Difference being..you are not a priest.


 
Ah but for the internet and $25, I can be!!


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 23, 2009)

Priests are human too. They interpret things based on their unique perspectives... they have opinions. 

When you place a person on a pedestal, regardless of the reason, they will ultimately let you down. Why? Because they're just as flawed as you are. 

I realize people are looking to this fellow for ethical guidance, so isn't the real issue here that some feel that stealing is wrong regardless of the circumstances and some feel that it can sometimes be justified. 

I would think that those who feel it is sometimes justified would likely support this priest. Those that do not, should find another church to go to perhaps. 

Oh, and BTW... we Americans have absolutely no grounds to point fingers at other countries religious leaders and cry "fowl". ... glass houses being what they are and all. :uhohh:


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## CoryKS (Dec 23, 2009)

Wasn't the C of E formed basically because somebody wanted divorce to be "more of a guideline"?

Not to equate the two, obviously. Just pointing out that they have a long-held... "bendiness", if you will, regarding established moral policy.


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2009)

Here we go again. find something a newspaper and bash the Brits again.
York is just down the road from me, the north of England has some appalling poverty, the steel mills closed, the big manufacturers closed, the pits closed all thanks to the Conservatives. You may think this is a welfare state and everything provided on a plate but I'm afraid you'd be wrong. This chap was interviewed on our local television the other night all he was saying was that if times are so desparate...and for some they are... steaking a can of beans ( and thats a direct quote) to feed your children or keep yourself alive is forgivable.
We are having built here a centre for homeless ex service people to get them back on the raod to recovery, one man I know is going into the unit, he was in Northern Ireland when his best mates brains were splattered all over him after being shot, he was in the Falklands in some of the bloodiest fighting, he was in the Balkans digging up massed graves and now because of PTSD can no longer work or cope in society, he lives on the streets at the moment, it's people like him that this vicar is thinking of when he says it's forgivable to sleat to keep yourself alive. Of course if the Christian thinking people got off their backsides to help people like him, stealing wouldn't have to be an option would it? A family in Newcastle who's mum is bedridden with MS survives because the children look after her, do the housework, cooking etc as well as trying to go to school, the only money coming in is a small disablilty allowance of £95 pr week to buy food and clothes for three people, no the social services don't help, and all they get otherwise is their rent paid. 

I know hundreds of stories like this, of people who are struggling to cope, this vicar isn't saying it's right to steal, he's saying it's understandable if they do and it's forgivable.

I never thought I'd be defending a vicar but really folks get off your high horses and have a look at the situations he was talking about, see what he means and for crying out loud be more charitable then normally honest decent people trying to survive wouldn't have to bloody steal.

Where's your compassion and understanding? Instead this chap who is on the front line fighting poverty is subjected to ridicule and scorn, really people, I thought better of you. 


What he said
"The Rev. Tim Jones, 41, told his congregation at St. Lawrence Church in York, England, during a sermon Sunday *it is better for the poor to turn to shoplifting than "prostitution, mugging or burglary, *
My advice, as a Christian priest, is to shoplift. *I do not offer such advice* *because I think that stealing is a good thing,* *or because I think it is* *harmless, for it is neither*," he said."


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 23, 2009)

Tez, were you reading the same thread as I just did? Because I don't find -any- "Brit Bashing" here. Or is this a "I'm having a bad day and going to swing at the slightes misread"?

 Just because it's a story about someone in the UK, doesn't mean it's a bash. Or does "bash" mean something different in England than in America?  I see a couple of light sarcastic comments that only a uber-thin-skinned person running a hair trigger on a bad day would take as a "bash". The last bash fest was handled by site staff, yourself and a few other members promptly.

Lighten up already. 

Was the article a mis quote? Then correct it with reliable evidence.

This is a world wide forum, if you want us to ban all discussion of all things British, we will need the following.
- 100 Million Pounds.
- Signed photos of all 11 actors to play Dr. Who.
- Lifetime supply of Jelly Babies
- A functional Dalek or TARDIS, or baring that, a fully functional Challenger.
- and a date with Ewan McGreggor for my wife.
Otherwise, expect some are going to disagree, going to post such, and you won't like some of it.


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## CoryKS (Dec 23, 2009)

FWIW, I don't necessarily disagree with the priest.  It is irrational for a starving person to fail to procure food for themselves by whatever means they can just because it's against the rules.  It's also irrational for such a person to need a green-light from a priest for such endeavors.  

He qualified his statements appropriately.  But one could see how his statements might be used by some to justify grabbing a few five-fingered discounts.  Some people define "needy" more broadly than others, particularly when it comes to their own wants or needs.


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## MJS (Dec 23, 2009)

In the end, it's the working people, that'll pay the price for those that steal something.  Hey, times are rough here in the US, but to take something because times are tough?  Sorry disagree.  So, perhaps I can walk into the bank with a gun, and take some cash....because times are rough.  Thats a bunch of BS.  

There are many other outlets to provide aid for people that're having a rough time.  Perhaps they should use those sources before resorting to stealing.  And before anyone starts crying foul...this goes for people in the article and people here in the US.  Dont want to be accused of playing favs.


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Tez, were you reading the same thread as I just did? Because I don't find -any- "Brit Bashing" here. Or is this a "I'm having a bad day and going to swing at the slightes misread"?
> 
> Just because it's a story about someone in the UK, doesn't mean it's a bash. Or does "bash" mean something different in England than in America? I see a couple of light sarcastic comments that only a uber-thin-skinned person running a hair trigger on a bad day would take as a "bash". The last bash fest was handled by site staff, yourself and a few other members promptly.
> 
> ...


 

"One again this must be a modern English cultural _weakness _thing, a further example of the decline of the once-mighty British Empire."
:rules:


It didn't read as mildly sarcastic I'm afraid. I don't want to ban discussion of things British, in fact I'd like to encourage more of it! However I don't understand why the actions of one person mean that everyone in a country is labelled the same? Why do people do that. One vicar says something and already it's why the British empire declined and the Brits are degenerate! C'mon it's not me thats needs to lighten up! Just comment on the guy, not equate it to the country.

Yep I'm running on adrenaline at the moment, no sleep for 48 hours as we are dealing with a crisis and yes I'm cranky but things like the quote above don't come over well unless some indication is given it's meant to be funny. A smiley would do, otherwise it looks and sounds like a serious comment.
Bash one man by all means and as long as it's the vicar not the Bishop it's fine (thats a rude English joke).

I can do the jelly babies and the Challenger ( we have a few parked up the road) well I can get you a ride on one anyway lol! Several of my students are tankies.
I can get you a Dalek head that you put on and it changes your voice.


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## CoryKS (Dec 23, 2009)

MJS said:


> There are many other outlets to provide aid for people that're having a rough time. Perhaps they should use those sources before resorting to stealing. And before anyone starts crying foul...this goes for people in the article and people here in the US. Dont want to be accused of playing favs.


 
That's the thing that gets me.  In the last few years, I've noticed a huge increase in the presence of charity drives.  My son's school does food drives all the time.  After the cashier at the supermarket rings up my items, they ask if I want to add a dollar to X charity.  Outside, the Salvation Army bells ring.  Off to the book store, they want to know if I would like to purchase a book to donate to needy children.  My company does a United Way drive every year, the participation in which is "voluntary", then there's Toys for Tots and Adopt a Family and ad infinitum.  No to mention taxes going toward relief agencies, and now we have a Congress full of d-bags telling us to pay our "fair share".  With the amount of money being thrown at the problem through voluntary and mandatory contributions, there theoretically should be no reason why someone should have to resort to theft.  Where the hell is all this money going?  I suspect that most of it goes in the pockets of the charity providers.


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## Joab (Dec 23, 2009)

What the Bishop should be advocating is acts of charity so people won't get so desperate they believe there is no other option than to steal. It is never acceptable to steal, it certainly can be forgiven and it certainly can be understandable if someone is about to starve to death, but I have found there are always other ways. Calling the commandment "thou shalt not steal" a guideline is absurd, it is a commandment, not a guideline.


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 23, 2009)

Joab said:


> *What the Bishop should be advocating is acts of charity* so people won't get so desperate they believe there is no other option than to steal. It is never acceptable to steal, it certainly can be forgiven and it certainly can be understandable if someone is about to starve to death, but I have found there are always other ways. Calling the commandment "thou shalt not steal" a guideline is absurd, it is a commandment, not a guideline.


 
Good point.


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## MJS (Dec 23, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> "One again this must be a modern English cultural _weakness _thing, a further example of the decline of the once-mighty British Empire."
> :rules:
> 
> 
> ...


 
Interesting...I just checked the current open ticket section and closed ticket section in the mod area, and I have not found 1 reported post from this thread. See this is what I, and the rest of the staff, find ourselves repeatedly saying....if you or anyone else, finds a post, no matter who it was made by, offensive, *HIT THE RTM BUTTON AND LET THE STAFF DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!*  Amazing how people get offended at something, complain in thread, never report it, then, instead of 1 person getting in trouble, we now have 2, because the 2nd person had to fire back, rather than letting the mods deal with it.  

As I said in another thread, regarding MMA.  Its not that all MMAists are bad, just a select few, that ruin it for the rest.  Same thing here.  For what its worth, I dont think that the OP was targetting every English person.  

Oh well....back to the thread.


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## MJS (Dec 23, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> That's the thing that gets me. In the last few years, I've noticed a huge increase in the presence of charity drives. My son's school does food drives all the time. After the cashier at the supermarket rings up my items, they ask if I want to add a dollar to X charity. Outside, the Salvation Army bells ring. Off to the book store, they want to know if I would like to purchase a book to donate to needy children. My company does a United Way drive every year, the participation in which is "voluntary", then there's Toys for Tots and Adopt a Family and ad infinitum. No to mention taxes going toward relief agencies, and now we have a Congress full of d-bags telling us to pay our "fair share". With the amount of money being thrown at the problem through voluntary and mandatory contributions, there theoretically should be no reason why someone should have to resort to theft. Where the hell is all this money going? I suspect that most of it goes in the pockets of the charity providers.


 
I agree!  I ask myself the same question...where does the money go??  Every time I go grocery shopping, and I'm asked to donate a $1 to whatever charity, I do.  On my way out, I'll toss in a few bucks in the Salvation Army guys bucket.  My wife, who works in the Acct. dept of a dental supply co., brought in toothbrushes that the company is donating to the needy.  Last year, the local PD had a cruiser parked outside the grocery store, for the Annual Stuff a Cruiser event.  On my way out, I gave them 2 bags of non parishable food items.  Many times during seminars, people are asked to contribute a small amount of cash or a food item, which is dropped off at the food bank.

So...all that being said...why are people stealing again?


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2009)

I think 'fashionable' charities get the most money, a while back AIDs charities were the in thing, millions were raised for relatively few sufferers, more women were dying of ovarian cancer every week than there were new AIDs sufferers but because it was a show business charity it made money. Breast cancer is the new one, yes it's very worthwhile charity but bowel cancer doesn''t attract nearly as much money but there again more people dying from it.
Here, charities that work abroad are more popular than 'home' charities, the perception I think is that people here can get money from the government but sadly they can't. The money is limited, I don't think asylum seekers here realise when they plan to come here they will only get £33 per week to live on. There are well profiled benefit fraud cases but these are perpetuated by criminals, it leaves however the idea that there aren't any poor people here. There are people too as I've said you are unable to fend for themselves, disabled, mentally ill etc.

The Church of England has for a long while now been working to try to eradicate poverty and social equality here, the vicar in questions 'boss' the Archbishop of York is well known for his views and is an outspoken critic of what he sees as bad policies, inequality and unfairness, to my mind as well as many Christians here this is the path a good man should take. I have great respect for him.
http://www.archbishopofyork.org/2688


Heres an interesting editorial. I don't know anything about Christian arguments but this quote is interesting. it seems this stealing argument is not a new one.
"_But the important thing is that he is standing in one of the main streams of Christian opinion. __St Thomas Aquinas held__ that a poor man may steal a loaf of bread to feed his family. It is more wrong that they should starve, and that no one should extend charity." _

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/dec/22/religion-christianity


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## Joab (Dec 23, 2009)

MJS said:


> *HIT THE RTM BUTTON AND LET THE STAFF DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!*


 
Where is this "RTM" button your supposed to hit to report abuse? I haven't seen it.


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2009)

MJS said:


> Interesting...I just checked the current open ticket section and closed ticket section in the mod area, and I have not found 1 reported post from this thread. See this is what I, and the rest of the staff, find ourselves repeatedly saying....if you or anyone else, finds a post, no matter who it was made by, offensive, *HIT THE RTM BUTTON AND LET THE STAFF DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!* Amazing how people get offended at something, complain in thread, never report it, then, instead of 1 person getting in trouble, we now have 2, because the 2nd person had to fire back, rather than letting the mods deal with it.
> 
> As I said in another thread, regarding MMA. Its not that all MMAists are bad, just a select few, that ruin it for the rest. Same thing here. For what its worth, I dont think that the OP was targetting every English person.
> 
> Oh well....back to the thread.


 
It's not offensive, it's annoying and it's not posted up as an insult it's posted as an opinion which is genuinely held so the best way to challenge that opinion is to post up not whinge I don't like it. It would be whinging and making me a whinger if I merely RTMd every post I didn't like wouldn't it?


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2009)

Joab said:


> Where is this "RTM" button your supposed to hit to report abuse? I haven't seen it.


 
Red triangle with exclamation mark (?) in the top right corner of posts.


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## Joab (Dec 23, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Heres an interesting editorial. I don't know anything about Christian arguments but this quote is interesting. it seems this stealing argument is not a new one.
> "_But the important thing is that he is standing in one of the main streams of Christian opinion. __St Thomas Aquinas held__ that a poor man may steal a loaf of bread to feed his family. It is more wrong that they should starve, and that no one should extend charity." _
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/dec/22/religion-christianity


 
If it came to starving to death or stealing, than yes, a case could be made that stealing is less wrong than dying of starvation. That does not mean "Thou shalt not steal" is a guideline, it only means that given the choice, stealing is less of a moral offense than allowing someone to die of starvation. I doubt very much that there are very many in the USA or Great Britain who shoplift do so because they are on the brink of dying any moment if they don't steal that food.


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## MJS (Dec 23, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> It's not offensive, it's annoying and it's not posted up as an insult it's posted as an opinion which is genuinely held so the best way to challenge that opinion is to post up not whinge I don't like it. It would be whinging and making me a whinger if I merely RTMd every post I didn't like wouldn't it?


 
I'm not crazy about some opinions that I read either, so I suppose its a matter of just dealing with them or countering in a civil way, not accusing someone of something.  If a statement is found to be flawed, provide evidence that backs it up.  

As for the RTM...no, simply disagreeing with someone isn't cause to hit it.   I think we all know what falls into that category.


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## MJS (Dec 23, 2009)

Joab said:


> If it came to starving to death or stealing, than yes, a case could be made that stealing is less wrong than dying of starvation. That does not mean "Thou shalt not steal" is a guideline, it only means that given the choice, stealing is less of a moral offense than allowing someone to die of starvation. I doubt very much that there are very many in the USA or Great Britain who shoplift do so because they are on the brink of dying any moment if they don't steal that food.


 
Still doesn't make it right though, if there are other options available.  Are there no food banks in the UK?  I honestly dont know, so I'm asking.  In todays world, with everyone reaching out to help everyone else, I find it hard to believe that there is nothing else to do but steal.


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## Joab (Dec 23, 2009)

MJS said:


> Still doesn't make it right though, if there are other options available. Are there no food banks in the UK? I honestly dont know, so I'm asking. In todays world, with everyone reaching out to help everyone else, I find it hard to believe that there is nothing else to do but steal.


 
Of course it doesn't make it right, I merely wrote stealing to prevent starvation is less of a moral offense than allowing someone to starve to death. I also wrote that I doubted very many who steal are really on the brink of starvation in either Great Britain or the USA.


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2009)

Joab said:


> If it came to starving to death or stealing, than yes, a case could be made that stealing is less wrong than dying of starvation. That does not mean "Thou shalt not steal" is a guideline, it only means that given the choice, stealing is less of a moral offense than allowing someone to die of starvation. I doubt very much that there are very many in the USA or Great Britain who shoplift do so because they are on the brink of dying any moment if they don't steal that food.


 
You'd be surprised how many are without enough food. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...th-caring-disabled-children-inquest-told.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2005/09/19/exclusive-gran-starves-to-death-115875-16147092/


http://www.oxfam.org.uk/resources/ukpoverty/morepovertyfacts.html

*"How is poverty calculated?*

Poverty is calculated as 60% of median income after housing costs. This is a measure of poverty used by most researchers, the EU and the UK government. In 2005/6, the 60% threshold was worth:

108 per week for single adult with no dependent children;
186 per week for a couple with no dependent children;
223 per week for a single adult with two dependent children;
£301 per week for a couple with two dependent children "
*What does poverty in the UK mean in practice?*

*"Material poverty* 
Poverty means not having enough money to pay for the things you need. From Oxfams experience of working with people living in poverty we know that this may involve families and individuals not having enough to eat, being unable to heat their homes, not having adequate warm clothing, and not having enough money to cope with unforeseen events, such as the need to repair a broken washing machince. 
The 2004/5 _Family Resources Survey_, published by the Department for Work and Pension, reports that: 60% of people on low incomes say they are unable to make savings of £10 a month;10% cannot afford two pairs of all-weather shoes for each adult in the family; 30% cannot afford household contents insurance; and nearly 30% are unable to have friends or family round for a meal once a months.* "*


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## Ken Morgan (Dec 23, 2009)

Gee I dont know where to start!!

Part of me wants to talk about all the other commandments no one talks about, and thus ignores. We all know theres more then 10, but a commandment about sheep rearing is just not much fun. 

TEZ, Sorry Hun, you know my loyalties; I dont see any Brit bashing going on. Go get some sleep at the first chance you get, OK?

Oh if we are putting a price on no more Brit bashing? I want some Flakes, Dairy Milks, and maybe some 99s brought over please, and thank you!

More seriously? There is only one way to deal with poverty folks and thats good jobs. But we in the west, the US, Canada the UK and many other places have exported all our good jobs to China, India, and Brazil. Our companies still show great profits, but our people, our middle class is eroding at a terrible rate.

As I and others have said before, if you are legitimately starving, its forgivable if you steal, however when I see people buying smokes and booze before food or warm clothing for their kids, I just want to smack them to the side of their collective heads.


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## Joab (Dec 23, 2009)

Tez, I know there are a substantial number of people living in poverty, I merely wrote that I doubt very many people who steal are on the brink of starvation in either the USA or Great Britain. I lived not long ago in a poor area of Virginia, I helped build a self help center for those in poverty in the area that included a food bank, food pantry, and low cost thrift store.  If anyone had a need and couldn't afford anything in the store it was given to them, and food was always given for free. It was my church that built and ran it.

Ken Morgan is of course right that the need really is for jobs that pay a living wage. It has been said that the most effective charity in the world is business, as business provides the jobs that bring about sustainable incomes for people more than anything else.


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## Archangel M (Dec 23, 2009)

After many years of arresting thieves, taking reports for thievery and recovering quite a bit of "thieved" property I can recall quite clearly the number people I dealt with who were stealing out of necessity....NONE!!! They steal for kicks, they steal for dope, they steal for business or they steal simply because they want something.

And if I ever do come across someone stealing for necessity, they will have my complete sympathy and understanding as I transport them to the station for booking.

On the topic of human imperfection and the clergy..so..what..we just stop thinking that people should live up to what is expected of them? In that case I have some corruption I would like to go take part in. We hold certain people and professions to a higher standard for a reason.

As to "Brit bashing". Lighten up. I seem to recall being lectured about commenting on "American Bashing" a while ago and received little sympathy. Just because it may be a European pastime doesn't make us any less sensitive. What's good for the goose and all.


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2009)

Aha, funny you should mention chocolate and Cadburys! the founders of the company were the very best kind of people, Quakers who do a huge amount to alleviate suffering and poverty. it's one reason why we don't want the company taken over.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bournville

Another chocolate company also run by Quakers which is still working for good is Rowntrees.

http://www.jrf.org.uk/workhttp://www.jrct.org.uk/


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> After many years of arresting thieves, taking reports for thievery and recovering quite a bit of "thieved" property I can recall quite clearly the number people I dealt with who were stealing out of necessity....NONE!!! They steal for kicks, they steal for dope, they steal for business or they steal simply because they want something.
> 
> And if I ever do come across someone stealing for necessity, they will have my complete sympathy and understanding as I transport them to the station for booking.
> 
> ...


 

American bashing isn't a European pastime, ignoring America is


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2009)

Joab said:


> Tez, I know there are a substantial number of people living in poverty, I merely wrote that I doubt very many people who steal are on the brink of starvation in either the USA or Great Britain. I lived not long ago in a poor area of Virginia, I helped build a self help center for those in poverty in the area that included a food bank, food pantry, and low cost thrift store. If anyone had a need and couldn't afford anything in the store it was given to them, and food was always given for free. It was my church that built and ran it.
> 
> Ken Morgan is of course right that the need really is for jobs that pay a living wage. It has been said that the most effective charity in the world is business, as business provides the jobs that bring about sustainable incomes for people more than anything else.


 

Many people though won't help they way you and your church have which btw I think is the very best kind of humanitarian thinking and action.

I think many people have not seen beyond the sensationilist headlines, the OP added the comment that 'thou shalt not steal is more of a guideline' it's not a quote from the vicar. the vicar said in a sermon that it's sometimes more acceptable to steal if starving than to mug someone, or turn to drugs or prostitution which of course when people think about it is correct, He hasn't said to go out and steal, he hasn't condoned stealing, he was making a point to make his congregation think about poverty, sin and charity. Your church has already taken on board the mesaage...to go out and help rather than let it get so bad that people steal or worse to eat.

Yes of course there's plenty who steal because they are thieves, criminals etc but this sermon wasn't about that, it was about what is the lesser of many evils, the choices some have to make when down on their luck and in despair, do they steal a tin of soup to eat or do they prostitute their bodies to 'earn' the money for food?  It was intended to be a thought provoking sermon but it's been twisted to make it seem as if he is condoning theft.


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> Gee I dont know where to start!!
> 
> Part of me wants to talk about all the other commandments no one talks about, and thus ignores. We all know theres more then 10, but a commandment about sheep rearing is just not much fun.
> 
> ...


 

Will be stood down in a while lol. Can't say what it is but this place looks nice to work at doesn't it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Menwith_Hill

I find references to English weaknesses etc annoying, no one can deny that comment was made. Why call us weak because of one vicar?


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## CoryKS (Dec 23, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> American bashing isn't a European pastime, ignoring America is


 
Did you just type that seriously? Who in here has that little icon with the rising BS flag?


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## jks9199 (Dec 23, 2009)

There is a criminal defense of "necessity."  It might justify, for example, breaking into a cabin when you're lost in the woods and in need of shelter, or stealing food to prevent starvation, or someone driving while suspended to deliver someone to the hospital.  It's actually a pretty limited defense, and seldom applicable because there are usually legal means to obtain the needed aid or resources.

In the same way, morally one might be able to justify stealing under desperate circumstances -- but only if other less morally objectionable methods have failed. And, even then, one would expect that restitution be made as soon as possible.


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## Archangel M (Dec 23, 2009)

And a defense of "necessity" would be an "affirmative defense" ("I did it but"). Which in plain terms means you still get arrested/charged and you have to .."prove it".


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## Archangel M (Dec 23, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> Did you just type that seriously? Who in here has that little icon with the rising BS flag?



My point proven eh?


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## Senjojutsu (Dec 23, 2009)

Hello Tez3,

I didn&#8217;t mean to really insult the Brits as a whole, my apologies.
Since I have traveled over and trained with Englishmen and Scots during the past few years - I actually do follow UK issues and read (online) newspapers in England.

Also it somewhat goes beyond this one priest. During the past couple of decades certain &#8220;mainstream&#8221; religious figures in England have said some interesting things regarding secular public policy issues_, i.e.,_ having Western unilateral nuclear disarmament back in the 1980s but the Soviets would get to keep their toys? Then there are political issues of taxation policies, or immigration etc. that get organized religion input. Abortion and the Death Penalty are still huge issues over here with religious connections.

I thought I had balanced it by making fun of certain things within the overall American religious community. We have had several instances of bible-thumping &#8220;televangelists&#8221; caught ahhh, *&#8220;with their pants down&#8221;.* Quick America - name the teary minister behind this quote: I HAVE SINNED.

I was thinking when I was posting earlier &#8211; because it is the season &#8211; of quoting my favorite Christmastime exchange from a famous English author regarding this priest&#8217;s statement:

_``Plenty of prisons,'' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again. _

_``And the Union workhouses?'' demanded Scrooge. ``Are they still in operation?'' _

_``They are. Still,'' returned the gentleman, `` I wish I could say they were not.'' _

_``The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?'' said Scrooge. _

_``Both very busy, sir.'' _

_``Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,'' said Scrooge. ``I'm very glad to hear it.'' _

_``Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,'' returned the gentleman, ``a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?'' _

_``Nothing!'' Scrooge replied. _

_``You wish to be anonymous?'' _

_``I wish to be left alone,'' said Scrooge. ``Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned: they cost enough: and those who are badly off must go there.'' _

_``Many can't go there; and many would rather die.'' _

_``If they would rather die,'' said Scrooge, ``they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population"._

Gawd &#8211; I love rereading this exchange and drinking eggnog at this time of year.


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> Did you just type that seriously? Who in here has that little icon with the rising BS flag?


 

You saw the little smiley face right? What do you think? I think this demonstrates quite nicely my point that when written down it's hard to know what's in fun and what's not. You were saying I was over sensitive but now you've done exactly the same in thinking I've insulted you.

You should understand that the UK and Europe does like Americans you know. Ignore what the media, yours and ours says, Americans are liked, polititians in any shape, form or nationality aren't.


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## CoryKS (Dec 23, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You saw the little smiley face right? What do you think? I think this demonstrates quite nicely my point that when written down it's hard to know what's in fun and what's not. You were saying I was over sensitive but now you've done exactly the same in thinking I've insulted you.


 
I never thought you insulted me, and I wasn't getting sensitive about it.  Just wondered if you were expressing an honestly-held belief.  Now I know.




Tez3 said:


> You should understand that the UK and Europe does like Americans you know. Ignore what the media, yours and ours says, Americans are liked, polititians in any shape, form or nationality aren't.


 
Yes I know they do tell us they like us, usually as a preface to listing all the things about American culture they don't like.  Guess it's a "hate the sin, love the sinner" sort of thing.


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> I never thought you insulted me, and I wasn't getting sensitive about it. Just wondered if you were expressing an honestly-held belief. Now I know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The media will do that but nobody asks 'proper' people what they think. People don't think an very often about America or Americans as I'm sure you don't think about us that often, we have lives unlike the media Tristans and the Chattering Classes. We are all sensible people who get on with our lives and don't have time to waste on 'hating' others (other than the French as Sukerkin will tell you lol). The media distort things as this post shows, a vicar preaches a sermon on something which I gather other Christian philosophers have considered and it gets distorted into 'a vicar says it's okay to steal', people read that, start chuntering and hey presto the press has done it's job.  
What do we think about Americans? enough to do this for them.
http://www.rafnews.co.uk/readstory.asp?storyID=385 Two American soldiers died immediately in the explosion but 12 were saved by this man's actions. Americans have and also will be regarded here as 'the cousins'.

Senjojutso, the internet and the written word on it cause things to be taken the wrong way, misunderstandings. No worries now, all explained, forgiven and forgotten!


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## Archangel M (Dec 23, 2009)

So your problem is that it says "British Priest"???


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## Sukerkin (Dec 23, 2009)

Will you stop poking the fire :lol:?  Let it go and move on.  It's the season of good will and forgiveness after all.


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## Ken Morgan (Dec 23, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Will you stop poking the fire :lol:? Let it go and move on. It's the season of good will and forgiveness after all.


 
Look, look a Brit telling us what to do!!!


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## Sukerkin (Dec 23, 2009)

ROFL.  {Basil Fawlty} Right, that's it ... go and fetch your sword, sirrah!  We shall settle this like gentlemen .


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 23, 2009)

You know, you guys keep poking the Brits they might revoke our Independence.


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## CoryKS (Dec 23, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> You know, you guys keep poking the Brits they might revoke our Independence.


 
Seems to me like we're doing a fine job of that all by ourselves.


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## Tez3 (Dec 24, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> So your problem is that it says "British Priest"???


 

Well if you want to split hairs lol he's actually an English vicar! A very distinct species all of it's own.

I don't have a problem as the gentleman who made the post apologised very nicely, he didn't mean to cause a kerfuffle.


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## MJS (Dec 24, 2009)

Joab said:


> If it came to starving to death or stealing, than yes, a case could be made that stealing is less wrong than dying of starvation. That does not mean "Thou shalt not steal" is a guideline, it only means that given the choice, stealing is less of a moral offense than allowing someone to die of starvation. I doubt very much that there are very many in the USA or Great Britain who shoplift do so because they are on the brink of dying any moment if they don't steal that food.


 


Joab said:


> Of course it doesn't make it right, I merely wrote stealing to prevent starvation is less of a moral offense than allowing someone to starve to death. I also wrote that I doubted very many who steal are really on the brink of starvation in either Great Britain or the USA.


 
Yes, I see what you're saying...stealing to prevent death vs stealing for other means....yes, the lesser of the 2 evils is obvious.  I'm simply wondering though, as to why someone would have to steal.  If there are, and as I said in my post, I am not sure, but if there are food banks, shelters, etc that'll offer meals for free, in addition to assistance from the state, Govt., etc., then why steal in the first place? 

As for people who shoplift for the sole purpose of eating....I'd say its for personal gain, ie: some dirtbag feels that they deserve a 60in TV, so they walk into the local Walmart, grab one and leave, or an addiction, ie: drugs.  Baby formula is something that is a hot item.  Its usually sold to smaller mom and pop type shops for quick cash.


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## MJS (Dec 24, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> American bashing isn't a European pastime, ignoring America is


 
Hmm..careful now....for the same reason you get offended every time someone starts a thread such as this, or every time someone slights MMA...well, I think you can see the point I'm trying to make here.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 24, 2009)

Free Christmas sale - thicker skins for all.


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## Joab (Dec 24, 2009)

MJS said:


> Yes, I see what you're saying...stealing to prevent death vs stealing for other means....yes, the lesser of the 2 evils is obvious. I'm simply wondering though, as to why someone would have to steal. If there are, and as I said in my post, I am not sure, but if there are food banks, shelters, etc that'll offer meals for free, in addition to assistance from the state, Govt., etc., then why steal in the first place?
> 
> I did write that I think there are very few people in the USA or Great Britain who steal because they are about to starve to death. In the USA, if you don't have enough food to stay alive you don't know where to go to get free food, it's out there. At least everywhere I have lived in the USA has been like this, and articles I've read seem to indicate this is reality, don't know about Great Britain. I do think the Bishops' approach is totally wrong, he should be encouraging acts of charity to prevent such a drastic situation from occuring, not stating its ok to steal if your about to starve to death, but do it from a large supermarket, not a small business.


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 24, 2009)

You know... I personally don't fault someone for doing what they have to in order to survive but you must consider that road travels both ways. 

Taking from another puts them in a similar circumstance, so then it becomes a matter of who's going to benefit; you or them. 

When it boils down to the most simple of survival rules, me or you... I'm going to have to go with "me." 

It's easy to be civilized and charitable when your welfare isn't at stake. 

Where is the ethical line drawn when you steal a loaf of bread from a family that only has a loaf of bread to eat, in order to feed your family? Is there a "right" and a "wrong" there? 

It's a catch 22 of sorts. You don't fault them for trying because you would do the same, but you have to protect what's yours in order to not find yourself in that same situation.


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## Joab (Dec 24, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> You know... I personally don't fault someone for doing what they have to in order to survive but you must consider that road travels both ways.
> 
> Taking from another puts them in a similar circumstance, so then it becomes a matter of who's going to benefit; you or them.
> 
> ...


 
To be fair to the Bishop, he did not advocate stealing from a small business much less a family no matter how dire the circumstance, only a large supermarket. There are costs there too. Up until last week I worked at a Walmart. That specific store had an audit that showed over a million dollars off in one year, much of which came from shop lifting. None of the shop lifters that were caught were on the brink of dying from starvation. That loss has to be made up and that is often made up in higher prices, in the USA the average family pays over $400 a year more due to shoplifting according to a report on CNN.

If it comes down to dying of starvation or stealing the Bishop may have a point, but as I have written before, the focus should be on keeping it from getting that bad, not suggesting that stealing can be a less moral evil than allowing someone to starve to death. Food banks, meals on wheels and the like are of course a far better solution than stealing, and having jobs available that pay a living wage is of course the most desireable solution to hunger.


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## Tez3 (Dec 24, 2009)

MJS said:


> Hmm..careful now....for the same reason you get offended every time someone starts a thread such as this, or every time someone slights MMA...well, I think you can see the point I'm trying to make here.


 
No, I put a smilie on to show it wasn't serious. 

You have to understand I don't get '_offended_', I get *annoyed* at inaccuracies and I also get annoyed when people make assumptions about anything based on what they see/read in the the media. I have a healthy respect for the truth and rarely does the media report the truth. I hate when people generalise, when they tar everyone with the same brush ie a bad cop beats someone up so all cops are bad, someone from X country is an idiot so naturally all inhabitants of X are idiots. You know the stuff. You also know that some comments while not typed intentionally as being snide read as that. The saying 'well it was funny in my head' applies. 

I like accuracy and truthful reporting, wishful thinking perhaps but in this case the OP put his own slant on the article then people went off at half cock condemning what was said without actually taking in the meaning. 


Joab, which Bishop are you talking about?

We don't have many shelters and we don't have food banks here. There are some hostels for the homeless but generally they can only stay a couple of nights before being moved on. Frankly I wouldn't know where to get free food anywhere here. Sometimes the Sally Army will take sandwiches and soup out but only perhaps in the major cities if then. At Christmas Shelter a charity for the homeless tries to get a warehouse usually in London for a few days and have beds, hot meals plus a doctor available but it's only for a few days.


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 24, 2009)

Joab said:


> To be fair to the Bishop, he did not advocater stealing from a small business much less a family no matter how dire the circumstance, only a large supermarket. There are costs there too. Up until last week I worked at a Walmart. That specific store had an audit that showed over a million dollars off in one year, much of which came from shop lifting. None of the shop lifters that were caught were on the brink of dying from starvation. That loss has to be made up and that is often made up in higher prices, in the USA the average family pays over $400 a year more due to shoplifting according to a report on CNN.
> 
> If it comes down to dying of starvation or stealing the Bishop may have a point, but as I have written before, the focus should be on keeping it from getting that bad, not suggesting that stealing can be a less moral evil than allowing someone to starve to death. Food banks, meals on wheels and the like are of course a far better solution than stealing, and having jobs available that pay a living wage is of course the most desireable solution to hunger.


 
I was just attempting to get into the base philosophy of it. 

Theft results in many inconveniences. When I worked in insurance we predicted that at least 2/3 of ones premiums went to making up for losses due to fraud. 

Think about that the next time you pay your bill. lol


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## Ken Morgan (Dec 24, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> ROFL. {Basil Fawlty} Right, that's it ... go and fetch your sword, sirrah! We shall settle this like gentlemen .


 
But we're both MJER! That'd be no fun...

Maybe if we blindfold ourselves, use light sabers, and try some of that crazy MSR stuff, then, then we could have a duel.

If you were female, I might suggest being naked and some liquid chocolate, but you're not...so that fantasy goes back into its little corner of my brain....


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## Joab (Dec 24, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Joab, which Bishop are you talking about?
> 
> My apologies, I thought the priest was a bishop.
> 
> We don't have many shelters and we don't have food banks here. There are some hostels for the homeless but generally they can only stay a couple of nights before being moved on. Frankly I wouldn't know where to get free food anywhere here. Sometimes the Sally Army will take sandwiches and soup out but only perhaps in the major cities if then. At Christmas Shelter a charity for the homeless tries to get a warehouse usually in London for a few days and have beds, hot meals plus a doctor available but it's only for a few days.


 
Bummer, there are lots of those in the USA, the priest would be more productive if he helped form food banks, meals on wheels programs and the like.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 24, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> Maybe if we blindfold ourselves, use light sabers, and try some of that crazy MSR stuff, then, then we could have a duel.
> 
> If you were female, I might suggest being naked and some liquid chocolate, but you're not...so that fantasy goes back into its little corner of my brain....




Well, I can't supply most of what was wished for there but this slice {yeah, swordwork pun attack! } of off-topicness might satisfy


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## Ken Morgan (Dec 24, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Well, I can't supply most of what was wished for there but this slice {yeah, swordwork pun attack! } of off-topicness might satisfy


 
I doubt they'd pass shodan with technique like that, but we could talk....


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Dec 24, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Well, I can't supply most of what was wished for there but this slice {yeah, swordwork pun attack! } of off-topicness might satisfy


 
Which one of you is wearing the black silk bustier, and which one is wearing the miniskirt? That info would be greatly appreciated as I reconstruct this epic battle in my mind, with Sukerkin's and Ken's faces superimposed onto those of the bar slags'.


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## Tez3 (Dec 24, 2009)

Here is the full transcript of the sermon.Please read.

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/4813866.Full_transcript_of_the_sermon_given_by_Father_Tim_Jones/


By the very nature of his job in the Church of England he will be heavily involved in charity work as well as pastoral care of his parishioners. if you want to ask him yourselves about his views you can contact him here.
http://www.freewebs.com/sthildayork/people.htm

PS scroll down a bit from the article to the bit that says jockeys in snow at Middleham and click on, one of those in the photo is my daughter, don't ask me which one though lol but she is there.


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## Brian King (Dec 24, 2009)

I have very limited time constrains, I have to go to work (this is what happens when a small business owner gives his employees a week of paid holidaythe work and hours must still be completedsigh) I may comment on the topic of this thread if it remains active after Christmas as I do have some thoughts on the issues, but I wanted to take a moment right now to say thanks for both the link to the sermon and much more importantly for the link to the story of the pilot and his rescue of those injured from the explosion. Feats such as his happen every single day around the world and we hear so little about them. Thanks Tez3.

I will be in church tonight and will remember in prayer this soldier and his deeds and so many other brave soldiers and families with their tremendous self sacrifices and commitment.

Regards
Brian King


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