# Pressure point attack



## silatman (Jun 5, 2005)

All though it is not a specific graded component of our sylabus we are taught to use basic pressure points in quite a number of our techniques, do others get taught to use these points in there training.
 Its just not something that gets discussed that much in general talk but it really makes a great deal of difference in a technique if you can locate a point that makes the reaction that your trying to set up happen without any extra effort on your part.
 Do people even know how easy they are to find and use? :idunno:


----------



## Knarfan (Jun 5, 2005)

I know what you mean . I am fortunate enough to have two training partners who have trained under Dillman for quite a few years . They are always lighting me up during demo's . I think it is probably harder to hit those points during combat , but I will say they never miss in class . They know exactly were each spot is & they have taught me alot . I'v also seen plenty of demos were Dillman & his students have put people out . I think that they are effective if you really understand them .


----------



## FearlessFreep (Jun 5, 2005)

We train to use them, or at least to know where they are and to practive using against them.  Mostly we practice using them as part of a strike.  Such as areas in the wrist, arms, neck, etc....that make a strike much more painful, or better at motivating movement in the direction we want..  We do it to each other so we know the difference.  I wouldn't, or don't, rely on them solely, more to add an extra zing to a technique so you can use less muscle and still get the desired result.  When I miss, I still go through, it's just harder to get my partner to do what I want.


----------



## Han-Mi (Jun 5, 2005)

If you know where the pressure points are and you have good precision with your techniques, it is very beneficial to use. It isn't easy to hist such small areas, and it isnt a good idea to train with partners striking a pressure points because it can be very damaging. so you have to train them seperatly.  But IMO pressure point and joint strikes are a smaller persons best chance against a bigger person.


----------



## MJS (Jun 5, 2005)

Pressure points certainly have their place. IMO, they work best against a grab, or where there is not as much movement compared to someone trying to punch you.  Can it be done? Absolutely!  But its going to take some practice.

Mike


----------



## redfang (Jun 5, 2005)

I've been getting some training with pressure points lately.  The focus of their use is for subject control, so they are relatively easy to get to and use.  Some are for quick pain compliance, behind the ear, bracchial at the side of the neck, bottom of neck (notch at top of chest.), under the nose, under the jaw.  Others are for quick stunning, common peroneal, scapular etc.  The first set are small and the weapon used against them is generally a thumb or finger.  The stunning/ disabling points are bigger and kicks or hand strikes as can be used.


----------



## KenpoTex (Jun 6, 2005)

redfang said:
			
		

> I've been getting some training with pressure points lately.  The focus of their use is for subject control, so they are relatively easy to get to and use.  Some are for quick pain compliance, behind the ear, bracchial at the side of the neck, bottom of neck (notch at top of chest.), under the nose, under the jaw.  Others are for quick stunning, common peroneal, scapular etc.  The first set are small and the weapon used against them is generally a thumb or finger.  The stunning/ disabling points are bigger and kicks or hand strikes as can be used.


  The ones you listed are the ones I use the most, I really love the one under the nose (my training partners aren't crazy about it though ).  I also like some of the ones on the arm: back of the arm right above the elbow, inside of the arm under the biceps, armpit, etc.  I see the pressure points more as "icing on the cake." In other words I'll use them if I can get them but I'm not going to work for them specifically.  My most common use is during grappling/groundfighting, or to escape a hug or a hold.  However, I usually prefer just to strike.  I tend to adhere to the school of thought that says that "any spot can be a presure point if you hit it hard enough."


----------



## Brother John (Jul 4, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Pressure points certainly have their place. IMO, they work best against a grab, or where there is not as much movement compared to someone trying to punch you.  Can it be done? Absolutely!  But its going to take some practice.
> 
> Mike


No doubt Mike, practice...practice....and..........more practice. But then, that's what every element of our martial arts demands of us in order to achieve excellence. 

I personally think that a good deal of our techniques already have these points being targeted w/in them...but once you know the points, know the trajectory to access them and what they should do.... the techs that you already have are then "Amplified" in usefulness. Definitely something to look into. 
I am. Take for instance the EPAK technique: Five Swords. Excellent for targeting the presure points!!! Almost every single move hits very useful points....from start to finish. Well worth looking into.

Your Brother
John


----------



## BaiKaiGuy (Jul 4, 2005)

silatman said:
			
		

> All though it is not a specific graded component of our sylabus we are taught to use basic pressure points in quite a number of our techniques, do others get taught to use these points in there training.
> Its just not something that gets discussed that much in general talk but it really makes a great deal of difference in a technique if you can locate a point that makes the reaction that your trying to set up happen without any extra effort on your part.
> Do people even know how easy they are to find and use? :idunno:


We have a number of them in my style.  Just like any other technique, never cou nt on them as a "fight ender", but be aware of their strengths and weaknesses.  

As for ease, I really need to break out my copy of Gray's Anatomy, lol.


----------



## DeLamar.J (Jul 4, 2005)

Pressure points are cool, but alot of it is common knowledge. I can gragb a guy by his arm pit and make him go where ever I want and say look at me Im a pressure point master, or hit someone in the neck and drop them. I tell people to just go for the neck, eyes, and nuts. You cant go wrong there.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jul 4, 2005)

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> Pressure points are cool, but alot of it is common knowledge. I can gragb a guy by his arm pit and make him go where ever I want and say look at me Im a pressure point master, or hit someone in the neck and drop them. I tell people to just go for the neck, eyes, and nuts. You cant go wrong there.


the problem with pressure points is that it is like having a tool without the knowledge to use it well. 
effective use of pressure points, whether they be nerve or acupuncture points, needs at least a bare minimum of general working knowledge.
for instance if someone has you by the scruff of the neck and they are pounding you hockey style, you want a release as well as the ability to block the punches. which nerve or nerve bundle would you strike to weaken both the flexors and extensors of the forearm? which nerve bundle weakens the flexors of the upper arm?
understanding even a small bit of this will make "pressure point" strikes much more effective.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 4, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> for instance if someone has you by the scruff of the neck and they are pounding you hockey style, you want a release as well as the ability to block the punches. which nerve or nerve bundle would you strike to weaken both the flexors and extensors of the forearm? which nerve bundle weakens the flexors of the upper arm?


 If someone has you by the scruff of the neck and they are pounding you hockey style, you want to get out of there. I wouldn't overthink it by looking for Gallbladder-7 or what have you. You've got to break that control, fast. Sure, in theory, hitting it just so might make it more ffective--but hitting a "just so" spot in such a circumstance is unlikely. You need a more robust technique.


----------



## Sapper6 (Jul 4, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> The ones you listed are the ones I use the most, I really love the one under the nose (my training partners aren't crazy about it though ).  I also like some of the ones on the arm: back of the arm right above the elbow, inside of the arm under the biceps, armpit, etc.  I see the pressure points more as "icing on the cake." In other words I'll use them if I can get them but I'm not going to work for them specifically.  My most common use is during grappling/groundfighting, or to escape a hug or a hold.  However, I usually prefer just to strike.  I tend to adhere to the school of thought that says that "any spot can be a presure point if you hit it hard enough."



i agree completely with your presepctive. :supcool: 

anything on the body can be a pressure point, when manipulated properly and efficiently.

just noticed you were in springfield.  where do you train?


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jul 4, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> If someone has you by the scruff of the neck and they are pounding you hockey style, you want to get out of there. I wouldn't overthink it by looking for Gallbladder-7 or what have you. You've got to break that control, fast. Sure, in theory, hitting it just so might make it more ffective--but hitting a "just so" spot in such a circumstance is unlikely. You need a more robust technique.


1. while i may have mentioned acupuncture point, you've failed to see where i was going with this. 
2. striking a nerve or nerve bundle is a bit more general than striking or looking for an acupuncture point.
3. a robust technique involves knowledge of these areas and includes the whens why's and how's. this is why i mentioned that specific scenario.
4. someone with more than a cursory knowledge would not need to over think where these areas are located.....it comes with the territory.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 4, 2005)

You described a _very_ high stress situation. Fine control goes out the window. Pulling off an accurate pressure point technique when "someone has you by the scruff of the neck and they are pounding you hockey style" is highly optimistic. Add in the fact that, as we're often told, some percentage of the population is resistant (and they're over-represented among those who like to fight), and I don't see it as a high percentage move.

 When you're being actively punded by someone who is holding you, hitting a pressure point is not something to count on. If your technique works even if you miss it, fine. If not...I'd be worried. Perhaps you're thinking of a technique where it's just a "bonus" if you get the pressure point. I have no quarrel with that.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jul 4, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> You described a _very_ high stress situation. Fine control goes out the window. Pulling off an accurate pressure point technique when "someone has you by the scruff of the neck and they are pounding you hockey style" is highly optimistic. Add in the fact that, as we're often told, some percentage of the population is resistant (and they're over-represented among those who like to fight), and I don't see it as a high percentage move.
> 
> When you're being actively punded by someone who is holding you, hitting a pressure point is not something to count on. If your technique works even if you miss it, fine. If not...I'd be worried. Perhaps you're thinking of a technique where it's just a "bonus" if you get the pressure point. I have no quarrel with that.


i was a bouncer in a bar for 5 years.....i also practice shiatsu therapy, so i have a pretty decent background in anatomy and neuroanatomy. im not speaking of anything that i havent used in a situation before. 
once again you are talking about accurate pressure point technique. what i am talking about is something that doesnt require one to be super accurate, but it does require something more than a cursory knowledge of the human body.
people develop a prejudice when something is ingrained into their way of thought, and they keep going back to that method of thinking. the idea is to take a different approach to the strikes. 
people can practice over and over again to punch someone in the face, and do it with relative accuracy in a stressfull situation. why then cannot one practice a different method with the same relative accuracy with a more effective end result due to applying a different set of blueprints.
its all in the application.
the human body responds to stimulation that causes reflexive action, even if the person is drinking.......the reflex might not be as strong as it would be in a sober person, but it is still present.
working with pain compliance on the other hand presents a different set of problems. when a person is under the influence, their pain tolerance goes up......and in some cases, they seem to experience no pain at all. i learned this the hard way.
so the alternative route is to use a method that causes involuntary reflexive action.......it doesnt have to be a huge reflex, only one that can give you an advantage.


----------



## still learning (Jul 5, 2005)

Hello, Pressure points that I see Mr. Dillman use in the martial magazines ads seems impressive.  Can anyone learn them and apply it with ease?  Is it that simple?

 In kempo, some areas to strike(hit) is the soft parts of the body with the hard part of our body.  Example chop to the biceps or ridge hand up to the triceps, or both. Many times the  arm goes limp.  Is this the same as hitting a pressure point?   .......................Aloha


----------



## MJS (Jul 5, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, Pressure points that I see Mr. Dillman use in the martial magazines ads seems impressive.  Can anyone learn them and apply it with ease?  Is it that simple?



PP's can't be learned through books, tapes or dvd.  Like anything, especially PP's, you need to have some quality instruction and be willing to spend some time, not only learning how/where to hit, but how, if you KO the person, to revive them.  In addition, hitting on a stationary person is one thing, hitting when someone is moving..much harder.



> In kempo, some areas to strike(hit) is the soft parts of the body with the hard part of our body.  Example chop to the biceps or ridge hand up to the triceps, or both. Many times the  arm goes limp.  Is this the same as hitting a pressure point?   .......................Aloha



Yes, to a point. (LOL..no pun intended)  Many of the FMA's such as Arnis and Kali use a gunting movement.  Its commonly termed "Defanging the snake" and is used to hit a spot to deaden the arm.  The bicep and tricep strikes that you mentioned are along the same lines.  What you see Dillman doing is more along the lines of a KO than a limb destruction.

Mike


----------



## DavidCC (Jul 5, 2005)

Brother John said:
			
		

> I personally think that a good deal of our techniques already have these points being targeted w/in them...


I would propose that this is not just a coincidence...


----------



## Brother John (Jul 5, 2005)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> I would propose that this is not just a coincidence...


I would propose that you are right on the money.

Your Brother
John


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jul 5, 2005)

so if you have a given technique that targets "pressure points", you are happy to sit back and accept it as is, without knowing the mechanism behind it?


----------



## Brother John (Jul 5, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> so if you have a given technique that targets "pressure points", you are happy to sit back and accept it as is, without knowing the mechanism behind it?


I'm sorry Shawn, 
whom are you asking this of???



Your Brother
John


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jul 5, 2005)

Brother John said:
			
		

> I'm sorry Shawn,
> whom are you asking this of???
> 
> 
> ...


anyone who feels that it is applicable to them. just to get some insight into how other systems might approach it......either as a group, or from one persons personal experience while applying what he or she does.
while a system might have a modus operandi, there is nothing that stops a student from thinking outside the box and applying knowledge that is new to them to something they already do.


----------



## Brother John (Jul 5, 2005)

Speaking personally, 
I never sit back and take anything as is.
changing, adapting and altering is the GREATEST fun I think.


Your Brother
John


----------



## MJS (Jul 5, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> anyone who feels that it is applicable to them. just to get some insight into how other systems might approach it......either as a group, or from one persons personal experience while applying what he or she does.
> while a system might have a modus operandi, there is nothing that stops a student from thinking outside the box and applying knowledge that is new to them to something they already do.






> so if you have a given technique that targets "pressure points", you are happy to sit back and accept it as is, without knowing the mechanism behind it?




I'm always thinking outside the box, and of ways to improve my training.  That being said, if I see something that I feel is effective and would benefit me, of course, I'll add it to my bag of tools.  However, having an understanding of what you're adding is key to making it as effective as possible.  What good is having something that you're not going to understand?  If you can't understand it, how are you going to use it?

Mike


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jul 6, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> I'm always thinking outside the box, and of ways to improve my training. That being said, if I see something that I feel is effective and would benefit me, of course, I'll add it to my bag of tools. However, having an understanding of what you're adding is key to making it as effective as possible. What good is having something that you're not going to understand? If you can't understand it, how are you going to use it?
> 
> Mike


egg zactly


----------



## Makalakumu (Jul 6, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> If someone has you by the scruff of the neck and they are pounding you hockey style, you want to get out of there. I wouldn't overthink it by looking for Gallbladder-7 or what have you. You've got to break that control, fast. Sure, in theory, hitting it just so might make it more ffective--but hitting a "just so" spot in such a circumstance is unlikely. You need a more robust technique.


Like "squeezing the peach"

It doesn't get much more robust then that and no hockey style beating is going to continue afterwards!


----------



## jkdhit (Jul 6, 2005)

from the training i've received, we haven't gone too deep into pressure points and using them. from the different types of training i've received, the main areas of attack which we go for are normally the nose, eyes, ears, temple, groin, stomach, shins

 i noticed a lot of schools mention the sternum but it's been shown that a hit to the sternum isn't very effective a majority of the time. i remember i read in a martial arts magazine last year that some martial artist was in a fight with a much larger guy, he hit the guy in the sternum and expected him to drop but ended up getting clobbered


----------



## still learning (Jul 6, 2005)

Hello,  Thank-you  MJS for the information.  Mr Dillman seminars may be worth taking, hope he comes to Big Island of Hawaii one day?...............Aloha


----------



## MJS (Jul 6, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello,  Thank-you  MJS for the information.  Mr Dillman seminars may be worth taking, hope he comes to Big Island of Hawaii one day?...............Aloha



You're welcome! :asian:   I'm glad that I could help.  

Mike


----------



## Brother John (Jul 6, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> If someone has you by the scruff of the neck and they are pounding you hockey style, you want to get out of there. I wouldn't overthink it by looking for Gallbladder-7 or what have you. You've got to break that control, fast. Sure, in theory, hitting it just so might make it more ffective--but hitting a "just so" spot in such a circumstance is unlikely. You need a more robust technique.


I think I understand where you are coming from. BUT: I don't think it's a matter of looking for "GB-7", but of augmenting your training so that the blocks, grabs, strikes and kicks that you would have been doing in your techniques that you practice day in and day out make access of these points... that way when you go to respond to an attack, what you do ALREADY has these targets.....targetted. It's not that you use a "Pressure point technique" but a technique that simply exploits a pressure point. It's simply a way to amplify the usefullness of what you already do. To call _THAT_ approach "ineffective" is to call martial arts training as a whole innefective.

Something to think about.
Your Brother
John


----------



## Bod (Jul 6, 2005)

> _jkdhit_   i remember i read in a martial arts magazine last year that some martial artist was in a fight with a much larger guy, he hit the guy in the sternum and expected him to drop but ended up getting clobbered



Hitting in the sternum is not really pressure point hitting. The solar plexus below the sternum might be considered a pressure point.

When you strike the solar plexus - assuming you hit it - the reaction varies depending on whether the person is breathing in or out at the time, whether they have eaten recently, whether they are out of breath, whether they have strong stomach muscles.

When I hit the solar plexus in boxing, it is with the aim of hitting it a second or third time, to slow down my opponent as he gets progressively winded. With a bit of luck he might slow down a lot on the first strike.

In a situation wit hno gloves the guy might go down first time, but that is a big 'might'. So you are aking sense when you say that someone who hits someone and then expects them to go down will proabably get clobbered.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 6, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Like "squeezing the peach"
> 
> It doesn't get much more robust then that and no hockey style beating is going to continue afterwards!


 I assume this is an attack to the groin, using a hand strike or a grab? If someone has you by the scruff of the neck and they are pounding you hockey style, that's a reasonable thing to try...but you're still taking shots to the head while doing so, no? I think I'd rather get my hands up, smother that punching arm, and either try an eye jab or else try to clinch or lock the straight arm first, rather than continuing to take that damage.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 6, 2005)

jkdhit said:
			
		

> i noticed a lot of schools mention the sternum but it's been shown that a hit to the sternum isn't very effective a majority of the time.


 In training I have good luck getting a 'cough' and brief delay from a sternum hit, which I make good use of to enter. I wouldn't want to bet on it though, and wouldn't use it when the fight was truly on but rather against an initial grab to buy a little time--just straight-arm the center of the chest, then go to work.


----------



## arnisador (Jul 6, 2005)

Brother John said:
			
		

> I don't think it's a matter of looking for "GB-7", but of augmenting your training so that the blocks, grabs, strikes and kicks that you would have been doing in your techniques that you practice day in and day out make access of these points... that way when you go to respond to an attack, what you do ALREADY has these targets.....targetted.


 I'm familiar with this line of reasoning, and I agree with it to a point. If someone comes up and does a collar grab and just stands there, it'd work. But if he grabs you by the collars and starts pulling and shaking you, I don't believe there's any real chance of hitting the pressure point target, so I don't think it'd help. But, it wouldn't hurt, so no argument!

 For the type of "hockey-style" attack discussed, where the other person already has control of you with one hand and is actively striking you with the other, I don't think it'd be likely to help...but if it's built-in to your training then sure, it won't hurt.



> To call _THAT_ approach "ineffective" is to call martial arts training as a whole innefective.


 Well, I don't agree with you there.


----------



## jkdhit (Jul 6, 2005)

actually i meant solar plexus not sternum   the magazine said solar plexus. they had written about how it's not effective a majority of the time. also most martial arts don't emphasize too much on pressure points because then you have a lot of people trying to reach a pressure point and end up getting injured because that was the focus of their target


----------



## arnisador (Jul 6, 2005)

The solar plexus is pretty effective. It helps to hit it while he's breathing in/relaxed, of course.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jul 6, 2005)

while an upper abdominal strike is effective at causing someone to double over in pain, the celiac plexus is located behind the stomach in front of the abdominal aorta, a rather protected spot in the abdomen as it resides behind the lower rib cage.
the actual hit to the upper abdomen is probably effecting the superior mesenteric plexus, this can cause all sorts of stomach cramps and difficulty breathing due to its mixture with the vagus nerve.

this is the kinda thing im talking about


----------



## jkdhit (Jul 7, 2005)

but reaching a point like that seems very complicated


----------



## Bod (Jul 7, 2005)

jkdhit said:
			
		

> but reaching a point like that seems very complicated



Not really. More of a case of 'Hit 'em in the gut, high up' as against 'Hit 'em in the gut low down'.

I also use a couple of pressure point grabs to augment my standing grappling. An example is pushing into the wrist tendons with your thumb while grabbing the wrist as a little 'extra' while executing a throw, or pushing into the exposed point on top of the shoulder blade while executing a hammer lock. I find that one particularly effective, because in a straightforward hammerlock you get out by moving away from the pain. By adding pain from another direction you can help confuse this basic reflex action.

Note that the throw or hammerlock work structurally without the 'extra' added by the pressure point technique.


----------



## searcher (Jul 7, 2005)

Not to get to far into the history of thwe post, but my school makes use of pressure points.   We try to incorperate them into most self-defense routine and sets.  I have been trying to get more students to use them in a grappling situation, but with little success.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jul 7, 2005)

jkdhit said:
			
		

> but reaching a point like that seems very complicated


this is the point im trying to make. people assume they're doing one thing and are actually doing something else. hitting the actual solar plexus would require a severe penetrating trauma starting below the sternum and moving superior towards the spine.


----------



## jkdhit (Jul 7, 2005)

i have to agree, also when you're in a fight.. it's hard to hit precise targets in a specific manner


----------



## silatman (Jul 8, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> Not to get to far into the history of thwe post, but my school makes use of pressure points.   We try to incorperate them into most self-defense routine and sets.  I have been trying to get more students to use them in a grappling situation, but with little success.



What do you think is the reason the students arent using them, is it lack of knolledge or ingrained movements?


----------



## searcher (Jul 8, 2005)

silatman said:
			
		

> What do you think is the reason the students arent using them, is it lack of knolledge or ingrained movements?


Ingrained movements for sure.  I have trouble getting them to not seperate standing and ground based movements.


----------

