# More No-Touch Knockouts.



## arnisador (Jan 5, 2003)

An article in the second U.S. issue of Budo International magazine, which appears to exist principally to feature articles on people selling videos in the same issue, discusses Evan Pantazi and his no-touch knockouts. He is a DKI student and is selling a tape on KOs. The article is very positive about the no-touch KOs.


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## Pyros (Jan 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *The article is very positive about the no-touch KOs. *



Budo International's articles are always positive, because they are nothing but advertisements for the videos they themselves publish. Budo International is a product catalog disguised as a magazine. It has it's merits for introducing different arts and artists to the public but they never publish anything except stuff about their own product line.


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## J-kid (Jan 6, 2003)

Do you know what i have to say about no touch knock outs,  

Fake,  Lets see him pull his Power of suggestion **** on a disbeliever.  LIKE ME!


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Do you know what i have to say about no touch knock outs,
> 
> Fake,  Lets see him pull his Power of suggestion **** on a disbeliever.  LIKE ME! *



In the Karate Forum (I think?) there was an open invitation to anyone that thinks they have "the right stuff" to do no touch KOs.

I have yet to see any takers................


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## Mike Clarke (Jan 6, 2003)

Oh Brother 

Here we go again.

Is it something in the water maybe?

Mike.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 6, 2003)

Mike, 

This will be going around and around until the end of time or someone lines up all the no touch KO guys and have the prove what that claim.


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## Pyros (Jan 6, 2003)

Too bad people don't come to my door saying they don't believe I can knock them out with my right fist! :rofl:


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## jazkiljok (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Mike,
> 
> This will be going around and around until the end of time or someone lines up all the no touch KO guys and have the prove what that claim. *



not even then will anything be resolved for this stuff.. . remember  when the original crop cirlce pranksters in england revealed themselves and their secrets for making alien landing signs?- the whole industry that grew around these pranks with ridiculous alien theories and on and on how it was impossible for men to do these geometrical signals simply had this response- "sure those signs -but what about the ones in INDIA?! " (no pranksters there they assured us!) etc...


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## Matt Stone (Jan 6, 2003)

While I believe in the existence of _qi_, the ability to harness it and direct it for martial and health related uses via _qigong_, I do *not* believe I will ever be like Darth Vader and be able to move, manipulate, knock out or kill another person without ever making contact with them...

I keep my eyes open.  If I ever get the chance to attend a seminar where they demo no-touch knockouts or other such phenomena on seminar participants (as opposed to only the cadre of instructors demo'ing on each other), I'm there.  I will stand there and let them try their hardest to do whatever it is they think they can do.

I'll admit I have had some odd experiences in my life due to _qigong_ training, but this kind of thing is far and beyond a realistic expectation of training.

If I ever go to one of these seminars, I will surely post here ASAFP to let everyone know the results...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## yilisifu (Jan 6, 2003)

I agree wholeheartedly with Yiliquan1 on this subject.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *I agree wholeheartedly with Yiliquan1 on this subject. *




As do I. 

When I was in China at the Beijing Medical University I saw some "freaky" stuff.

However, the pretty bogus video/mpegs I have seen of certain westerners doing these no touch KOs and their explination of them have not led me to believe in such things.


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## white belt (Jan 6, 2003)

I believe I have a scientific explanation for the "No Touch KO's" from an undisclosed source.

The pressure points activated are on or near the center of the face or sinus region.  The particular "air" or "breath" practice involves preparation in advance. Usually the "Chi" is ingested or gathered and stored near the "Dan Tien" in or near the large intestine.  This must be done a minimum of 2-3 HOURS before a sufficient quantity of "Chi" is ready to be transmitted.  Once the proper preparations are made, the practitioner feels heat and swelling near the "Dan Tien".  By taking and holding a deep breath, that is pushed hard down into the LOWER ABDOMEN, the catalyst is in motion.  Next the practicioner flexes the urogenital diaphragm closed while violently flexing down on the abdominal muscles.  The "target" or opponent typically must be within 10 feet for them to receive a knockout dosage.  The remaining flexing of the abdomen is then accompanied by the waving of the hands, in a forward or sideways motion, toward the "target" with the fingers spread wide for proper flow.  If the hands are not used in time, the "Chi" can harm the nerves of the user and the lungs and diaphragm may go into shock.  This can cause the user to pass out or even commit unintentional "Seppuku".  If the practicioner is highly advanced, and stores sufficient "Chi", there are reports of being able to knock out multiple opponents at a time and to cause alarm or tears in innocent passersby.  Early trial runs can be performed on small animals gradually working up to large dogs.  Once a large dog is accomplished, then the next step is a human subject.  Caution is important.  Specific revival techniques must be used or violent vomiting, nerve damage, etc. may occur.  Some have gone blind.

This particular method is called "Empty Force" or "Kim" in Korean.  To prepare the body, steady doses of fermented, spiced cabbage must be ingested at regular intervals along with a static "Chi Gong" posture exercise called "Holding the Air Ball".  The name was abbreviated from the older ancient texts as this practice was originally named "KIMCHI GONG", after the first generation Master Sock Kim.

We Sock Kim is reported to have devoloped this method of deadly self defense as a young boy, in Korea, circa 600 A.D.  He was rather sickly and was beaten up by his classmates rather frequently.  His parents were poor cabbage farmers and they could not afford self defense lessons from the local Kong Soo masters.  Finally one day, young Sock Kim was approached by a gang of youths about 3 hours after eating a hearty lunch consisting of cabbage and a special blend of spices.  One of the youths punched We Sock Kim hard in the stomach.  As expected all the "wind" was knocked out of young Kim as he fell to the ground.  When this happened, a look of horror overcame the gang of bullys as they all fell to the ground never to regain conciousness.  Luckily, for Kim, hot air rose that day, as it still does, and he was spared the same fate from his newfound and then uncontrolled power.  This particular incident is credited by some as the beginnings of the extremely low stances in traditional martial art as a method used to avoid an attack from a "KimChi" master.  To this day the name "KimChi" can be heard in hushed whispers in many an Oriental kitchen or local Oriental restaurant, if one were to listen closely enough.  So long as cabbage is fermented, the legend of "Empty Force" or "KimChi Gong" will live on.

No charge.  Save your money for cabbage, instead of seminars, and practice hard.  Someday you too may be able to do the "No Touch KO".

Bon Apetit,
white belt


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## J-kid (Jan 7, 2003)

How about a simply yet affective way to explain how this is posible.  

In the 1940s the us goverment was very intrested in tricking the mind,  Everything from subliminal messages  to reading minds.

Somthing they found is the Power of suggestion.  If someones brain really wants to believe somthing it happens.  For example Alot of the people in mental instations believe things or people are doing things to them when nothing is happening.  They get to a point where they see bugs crawling all over them and they believe that they are inside there skin then begein clawing themselves to a point of self injury that might lead to death.  Now your proble asking yourself what dos this have to do with NO touch knock-outs.....   This is how most of the people who say do a No touch knock out to me ,  Think so much that it is going to happen that they make it happen to them selves.    People pass out all the time and Alot of times its because they become overwelmed,  Now did someone forces SOME MAGICAL FORCE like in star wars (This analige was used earler but i think i steal it) to make those people faint,  * NO*  you see there are many causes of this type of bull***** happening everything thing from some masters saying they can cause weman Orgasims from pressure points.   My coach was talking about how he saw this fail and he laughed as weman from the crowd challeged him to do it yet he was un able even to turn them on.    No touch knocks outs never really work or he would be able just to enter ufc or go on the news and SAY look what i can do make millions like billy blanks (TB).   You cant buy into everything you here,  If i told you your not breathing right now and that i can make  you fly threw the sun just for the low price of 9.99 are you gonna send me a check.  Hopelly not ,  Some times its a buyer beware market and if you fall for some foolish trick.  Any how like i said if someone can do this why not enter the ufc make some money and show the world it can be done to fighter that would smerk at you and think you are full of **** like i would if someone said that can NTKO me.      Anyhow Its one of those Things you see in a cheap infomercal that dont work be a sap or be a smart consummer the rest is up to you! :shrug:


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## white belt (Jan 7, 2003)

Has anyone heard of the "Hard Style Qi Gong" called "Rigor Mortis"?  I think it is from France or something.  Apparently large groups of people all over the world practice this.  It involves "Stilling the Breath"  and can be done from a variety of positions.  The most common is a reclining position.  Comments?  Is this a DKI method?


white belt


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## DKI Girl (Jan 9, 2003)

Okay...for those of you on the west coast.....Master Jim Corn is coming to Arizona for a seminar and would be glad to demonstrate to any of you that feel you have doubts about what he and many others in DKI can do.

I'll even give you a money back guarantee on the seminar....so what do you have to loose except a little time and some gas.

dki girl


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## J-kid (Jan 9, 2003)

**** tell him to come to washington and ill go there and bet him money he cant do it to me.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DKI Girl _
> *Okay...for those of you on the west coast.....Master Jim Corn is coming to Arizona for a seminar and would be glad to demonstrate to any of you that feel you have doubts about what he and many others in DKI can do.
> 
> I'll even give you a money back guarantee on the seminar....so what do you have to loose except a little time and some gas.
> ...




Send me an airline ticket..............


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## Matt Stone (Jan 9, 2003)

If any of the DKI people that claim to possess the ability to knock me out without touching me ever show up in Washington (specifically Seattle/Tacoma area), I will be one of the first people to sign up for the seminar, money back guarantee or not...


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## TkdWarrior (Jan 9, 2003)

there's Sun Fist arts(from 72 secrets of shaolin) some of which my teacher(Taichi) taught me... it's supposed to generate that "No Touch Ko" but in his 20 yrs he havn't seen anyone who can do that, he hav traveled in china n practiced there ..."No touch Ko" is basically a myth to him... but he says one thing for sure with all those 72 secret u can really become very powerful dude... he's around 5 feet n 3 in n hit really really hard, his body is over flexible so can do some pretty crazy stuff but No Touch Ko is still out of his reach 

Mr White Belt i hav heard of "Hard style Qi-gong" but not Rigor mortis, the one i hav heard about r those which r meant for chinese soldiers to aquire(sp?) power in minimum time to prepare them for battle n they do hav some bad effects on body(not all of those)
-TkdWarrior-


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## yilisifu (Jan 9, 2003)

With this "money-back guarantee", I wonder what the catch is?


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *With this "money-back guarantee", I wonder what the catch is? *



The catch is you probably don't get to hit back......


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## Mike Clarke (Jan 9, 2003)

You know there are a lot of young men and women going to put  their lives on the line starting next month.

I can't help but wonder why Mr. Dillman and his master instructors didn't volunteer to go over and 'zap'  Iraq's armed forces [without touching them of course].
I can only put it down to them not being  DKI members ?

Hey, did I ever tell you guys about the time I was flying over Moscow in the craft I'd stolen from area 51 ?
Whoops, sorry, I'm getting my fairy stories mixed up here.

And by the way,,,,,, The Dead Zone, it's only a t.v. show, isn't it ?

Can't wait to read the reports if anyone gets to the seminar?

Mike.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *
> 
> Can't wait to read the reports if anyone gets to the seminar?
> ...



If you do hear anything the "spin doctors" will working hard afterwards on damge control on why it didn't work on so and so. 

Like the planets weren't in the right alignment or the sun was in my eyes......etc.etc.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *
> 
> Hey, did I ever tell you guys about the time I was flying over Moscow in the craft I'd stolen from area 51 ? *



Was that the invisble one? Or the one with the lights that look like the LA skyline?


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## Kirk (Jan 9, 2003)

There's no way to say this, DKI Girl without it sounding 
disrespectful.  But I've probably read every single one of your 
posts.  And I don't recall you ever saying "Yes, Mr Dillman CAN
render you unconscious without touching you".  Do you even
believe it yourself?  You always skirt the subject by saying
"his abilities", or "what he can do" and so on.  Does Mr Dillman
have a set ranking set where you get to start working on NTKO's?
How far have YOU gotten?


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## white belt (Jan 9, 2003)

"Rigor Mortis" is when the human body hardens after death.  Hence, the term "stiff" for a dead body.  It's the hardest energy manipulation known to the human body and it only happens to a person once.  Usually not by choice.  IT'S A JOKE!  Warped American humor is all.

As far as DKI stuff goes, check out Earl Montaigue's review.  I believe you can find it under the key words "Dillman/Montaigue" with a decent search engine.  Earl is a Tai Chi man from Australia who has researched pressure points quite a bit himself.  He credits Dillman KO's to Dillman being a rather stout, strong individual who overly depends on the Carotid Sinus.  Earl was curious like many of you and donated his body to a seminar to see what the program was all about.  See if someone can find the review and post it.  It is revealing and coming from an unbiased perspective.

DKI Girl, I picked up one of Mr. Dillman's books and it is very informative concerning an interpretation of kata.  His interpretation.  Using physical contact.  When people start talking about "Empty Force" and being able to do it, they are severely jeapordizing their future credibility about anything they say or do.  Stick to DKI's practical methods and don't waste your time defending NTKO's.  It will fade away wth time.

white belt


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## TkdWarrior (Jan 9, 2003)

http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/dillman_and_me.htm for Erle Montague's site... u can get that story about dillman n him there.
but there Dillman n Erle talks about Pressure point not Empty force if i remember rite... n there's other article about Empty force on the very same site, http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/empty_force.htm
lol about Rigor mortis, but wat i talked abut qi gong methods they do exists... 
-TkdWarrior-


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## white belt (Jan 9, 2003)

TKD Warrior,

Thanks for the help by bringing up that website.  There is valid Qi Gong for health.  I realize that.  I chastise the "Out of body QI" proponents.  This BS needs to stop.  It tarnishes people's conceptions of the term "Martial Art".  That helps no one on this forum.  It may actually turn a needy person away, from a  solution for poor health, because they see this nonsense first.  To me that borders on being criminal.

white belt


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## white belt (Jan 9, 2003)

I went into the "Earl M." sites posted to refresh my memory.  They are wonderful and well explained.  I wish I could train with this man here at home.  The circus tricks/empty force subject is handled very well.

DKI Girl, click on the attachments in TKDWarriors post and read.  Earl's a pretty nice guy and he is knowledgeable.

white belt


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## DKI Girl (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *There's no way to say this, DKI Girl without it sounding
> disrespectful.  But I've probably read every single one of your
> posts.  And I don't recall you ever saying "Yes, Mr Dillman CAN
> ...



Hi Kirk....Yes I have seen him do it many times.....but everyone bashes so hard on DKI that it's almost not worth it to come here anymore.

I came to this forum to meet new martial artists who were intelligent, interesting, and interested in learning new things.  So far very few people here have even been polite to me.  It really makes me wonder where the martial arts is going when everyone talks crap and puts everyone else down because they are doing something different or something you don't believe can be done.

I always travel to other states to attend different seminars, whether they are arnis, small circle jujitsu, or other styles just to continue my learning.  And all I hear from people is:  "When they come to my home town, then I will go."

It just makes me sad to see the state of instructors out there being so closed minded about new ideas.

NO ONE in DKI has ever said that some of the techniques we are working on right now are combat effective!!  It's like starting out at white belt and sparring with a black belt getting your butt kicked.  It takes time to build the techniques and figure out how they work for you.

And yes, I have worked on the no touch stuff myself....I have had some results with different people but it is not consistent at all and it takes me along time to do it, so I continue to practice along with all the rest of my katas and techniques.

dki girl


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## Kirk (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DKI Girl _
> *Hi Kirk....Yes I have seen him do it many times.....but everyone bashes so hard on DKI that it's almost not worth it to come here anymore.*



I'm sorry to hear that, but I can't argue with you either.  I've
witnessed what you're talking about, and if I were in your shoes,
I'd feel the same way.  

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it!
:asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 9, 2003)

Ms. DKI Girl:

I don't believe it for a second.

With that said--and I'm not trying to be impolite, only stating my basic opposition up front--I have a couple of questions.

First: what's the theory behind these "no-touch," KOs? Why would they work? what exactly is the practitioner supposed to be doing, have you been taught?

Second: the clips I've seen all show obvious fakery. The attacker's clearly on the way down even before the "no touch," guy does anything--are there other clips?

Third: how do you train this, exactly? and how long does it take? I get the impression--could be totally wrong, of course--that you haven't trained all that long. So if you're getting intermittent results, that's pretty impressive--but everything I've ever read about "no touch," stuff back in its home, China, associates the ability with extreme seniority (like being 90) and a lifetime of work. So how come the short-cuts? If they work, why train anything else?

Fourth: has this ever been tested objectively--by which I mean, has anybody studied these KOs against attackers who AREN'T members of the club, who ARE skeptical, who DO know how to attack? 

Fifth: how would you respond to either a) the idea that these are indeed circus tricks, stuff you see all over China which gets done as part of a street performance (like the unbendable arm, the spear in the throat, etc.) done for money, or b) the old Buddhist criticism that says such tricks are relatively easy, and a complete distraction from the real point (something I might apply to more-believable martial arts stuff, by the way)?

Sixth: where did Mr. Corn train, how long, and how? Sorry I'm not writing, "Master," but I simply refuse--and claims about "mastery," of no-touch KOs are exactly the sort of thing that're the reason why.

I'm apologetic if I've been ill-mannered. To me, the real problem isn't stuff like no-touch--it's all the folks in martial arts who make claims based on illusions.

I was thinking about this while watching the newish, "Harry Potter," flick. During the confrontation between  Lucius Malfoy, senior and  Mr. Weasley, I was speculating on how ol' Lucius would handle, say, "Triggered Salute," delivered while he was still blustering and trying to get his little wand out--and, incidentally, I thought Professor Snape had just the right attitude to sparring. Little talk, much ka-blam.


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## Cruentus (Jan 9, 2003)

> The pressure points activated are on or near the center of the face or sinus region. The particular "air" or "breath" practice involves preparation in advance. Usually the "Chi" is ingested or gathered and stored near the "Dan Tien" in or near the large intestine. This must be done a minimum of 2-3 HOURS before a sufficient quantity of "Chi" is ready to be transmitted. Once the proper preparations are made, the practitioner feels heat and swelling near the "Dan Tien". By taking and holding a deep breath, that is pushed hard down into the LOWER ABDOMEN, the catalyst is in motion. Next the practicioner flexes the urogenital diaphragm closed while violently flexing down on the abdominal muscles. The "target" or opponent typically must be within 10 feet for them to receive a knockout dosage.



This is an exact description of me on the toilet every morning. Anyone within 10 feet is knocked out! And I'm sure if I hold it in for too long, nausea, blindness, and other abnormalities will definatily occur. And yes, I will attest to my "DOOK-EE-Gong" in a moneyback garuntee seminar.

:lol: 

Sorry, I couldn't resist!


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 9, 2003)

So I got off my proverbial tail, and looked up both Mr. Corn and the no-touches on the websites marked in DKI Girl's Profile....his credentials are fairly impressive.

And I also took a peek at a number of the video clips. I realize that you can't see this sort of stuff on video, but they're just as obvious fakes as anything else I've seen. In a couple of cases, the guys who are supposedly, "KO'd," are continuing to move in a purposeful fashion (check their arms!) while supposedly, "out." 

Clearly, the pressure points are real. I might note, though, that my understanding is that they need to be, "activated," and I ain't seeing much activation going on here. And the techs are real, working off perfectly ordinary (whatever that means) physical and physiological laws--though I might add that from a kenpo guy's viewpoint, the effect of the strikes does not look realistic at all. And since there are no checks whatsoever, the no-touch stuff had darn well better work.

And it is very clear on the tapes that the knockee is cooperating in the sense that they are simply standing there to get knocked. This raises some suspicions about further cooperation, I'm afraid.

I return to my comment about Lucius Malfoy. If I'm stupid enough to let somebody in range who's really trying to knock me out, well, I ain't just standing there. Sweep my lead leg against the joint, striking hard into the shin, as on one of the clips? Oh, hell, no. Triggered Salute looks good for that issue.

Sorry to be so skeptical. I know ki is real in an ordinary sense--correct body alignment, the synchronization of breath with movement, the driving of the body with the mind beyond what the body wants to do. I know there's a psychological aspect to ki--intimidation, good days/bad days, moving with confidence and authority rather than timidly. I suspect that there's also a non-physical and un-ordinary aspect to ki, since I've sure as hell felt something real odd a couple of times. I've no idea about what some little guy who's been studying most of a lifetime can do, but I bet there are none of these guys running around giving seminars.

But this stuff...nope. It's quackery. Nor am I going to the seminars. I realize that may seem closed-minded, but I think of it this way: "Never keep your mind so open that your brain falls out."


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## Cruentus (Jan 9, 2003)

I actually do not know enough on Dillman's NTKO stuff to comment. 

I can say that although I have never practiced DKI, there are a lot of credible people who do, or at least have in the past. If you like the system, then good for you.

Pesonally, If there is ever a seminar in Michigan that you know of for DKI NTKO, could you please e-mail me on this forum and let me know. I'm a total skeptic, but I would be willing to try almost anything at least once, especially if there is a $$-back gaurantee of some sort.

In terms of trying to research something new, anything is possible, and anyone will catch flak for trying out something new. I just hope that the DKI community is being as honest and truthful about their research as possible for the sake of their own credibility.

Also, one last thing. Please keep in mind that most people, myself included, have experienced more B.S. in terms of qi-gong and internal energy then truthfulness. We not only have the right to be skeptical, but we should be. There are too many con-artists out there monopolizing off of the concept.

*rmcrobertson:*  Hey, I understand your standpoint and your fustrations. I am a skeptic myself. But if you don't mind me politely critiqueing you, I think your being a little bit harsh towards the subject considering that (as it appears) you (like myself) have had little to no direct experience with the DKI NTKO people to be so adamently oppossed.

Respectfully,
PAUL:asian:


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## Cruentus (Jan 9, 2003)

> When I was in China at the Beijing Medical University I saw some "freaky" stuff



I am actually interested in some of the "freaky" stuff that you've seen with qigong. I'm interested in other experiences as well, for mine are limited. 

Keep your eyes peeled, because this is worth a new thread. I think I will start one!  

I'd like to hear some truthful answers from everyone, no B.S.!


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 9, 2003)

Of course I don't mind a polite critique or two--just not used to them, on forums. 

I agree, probably too much. Tend to be wordy.

However, ya gots to draw a line about what you'll try. I also haven't tried faith healing, chiropractic to cure diabetes, therapeutic touch, past-life regression therapy, the teachings of Seth, astrology...ya gets the idea.

But I take this stuff a little seriously, because it suggests how superstitions and misplaced religious longings and psychological frailties can get the best of us. I'd relate it to other things that are a lot less harmless--but I think I'll spare us all the list there.

I do think this stuff has to be strongly opposed in the martial arts. First, it encourages a lot of fakery, and taking advantage of students. Second, it encourages students to believe they have abilities they don't have (kind of like tae-bo), which is going to be bad in the event that, ahura-mazda forbid, they actually have to employ what they've studied for so long. Third, it dovetails with a lot of the BS in the martial arts that we all know about, but keep falling for--in our own practice as well as in other dojos and other styles. 

And last, I just can't stand this pseudo-science and pseudo-mastery of the Mysterious Oriental Arts.

Oh well. Big deal. See, I told you--wordy.

Anyway, thanks--I'm avoiding finishing up paperwork from last semester...


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## white belt (Jan 9, 2003)

Paul,

The "KIMCHI GONG" STORY WAS A PARODY!!  It was aimed at NTKOs!!  It was a joke!

"We Sock Kim" as in we PUNCH Kim!  Kimchi is an Oriental side dish served in restaurants made from CABBAGE!  IT IS KNOWN TO CAUSE EXTREME FLATULENCE IN LARGE QUANTITIES!  Go back and read the post.  I was joking!  Nobody else thought I was serious.....right?

Holy crap!
white belt


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## arnisador (Jan 9, 2003)

Mr. Dillman has a lot of good stuff, and I've learned a lot of things at his seminars. I've met Mr. Corn and watched him teach and he's a knowledgeable martial artist also.

Mr. Dillman has a lot to offer, and I have often left his seminars saying "I should have thought of that!" about some joint-locking application of a kata. I believe he believes what he's saying. But I believe the no-touch KOs are stage magic, the theory of sound is wishful thinking (you use a different kiai for strikes in different directions and to different organ systems), and the color theory--if he's wearing a red shirt, hit to a heart point, etc.--is nonsense.

The DKI system is taking a hard knocking here from people who may not be directly familiar with it. Frankly, most of it is not even pressure point stuff as much as grappling techniques hidden in the kata. Also, DKI isn't a single Karate system--it is an approach that fits in with many Karate systems. Many DKI people are principally doing, say, Isshin-ryu and adding to it some grappling and pressure point techniques.

There's good stuff in DKI, and it exposes people to some great ideas. That's why I think it's a shame about the no-touch KOs--they are keeping peopel from seeing the good in the DKI system.

I'd still encourage karateka to investigate DKI. I'd go to more DKI seminars if there was more fighting technique and less "experimental" chi stuff.


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## jazkiljok (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Of course I don't mind a polite critique or two--just not used to them, on forums.
> 
> I do think this stuff has to be strongly opposed in the martial arts. First, it encourages a lot of fakery, and taking advantage of students. Second, it encourages students to believe they have abilities they don't have (kind of like tae-bo), which is going to be bad in the event that, ahura-mazda forbid, they actually have to employ what they've studied for so long. Third, it dovetails with a lot of the BS in the martial arts that we all know about, but keep falling for--in our own practice as well as in other dojos and other styles.
> ...



absolutely agree with with you as well- butI hope you don't take offense if i ask you about Larry Tatum, who if i'm not mistaken is your teacher in American Kenpo. He makes rather supiciously similar claims of "extraordinary powers"  in the AK book called the Journey- in this he tells a story of how far he's developed his chi and cites a story of knocking some big bruiser down without touching him and that it was his "force field" that hit the guy.

in the context of his chapter- i didn't take it as a joke (was it?)

just want to know how you reconcile your rational viewpoints, which i fully agree with your own teachers experience on the topic and if you've ever discussed this with him?

thanks 
:asian:


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## jazkiljok (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Mr. Dillman has a lot of good stuff, and I've learned a lot of things at his seminars. I've met Mr. Corn and watched him teach and he's a knowledgeable martial artist also.
> 
> Mr. Dillman has a lot to offer, and I have often left his seminars saying "I should have thought of that!" about some joint-locking application of a kata. I believe he believes what he's saying. But I believe the no-touch KOs are stage magic, the theory of sound is wishful thinking (you use a different kiai for strikes in different directions and to different organ systems), and the color theory--if he's wearing a red shirt, hit to a heart point, etc.--is nonsense.
> ...




yes but that apparently is the problem with all this- people like Dillman who do have good material to offer as he did in the beginning suddenly slide off the deep end, completely obscuring the good work they started with.

simply look at DKI Girl who claims to be rather new at all of this- she obviously should be less concern with no touch and more concern with practicing her basics and learning to defend herself in real and practical ways. Instead she attempts to examine this material which even she admits her teachers don't cite much practical use for.

this is a waste of time and serves simply to impress and awe the already converted-- it hints of cult-like behavior and who knows where that can lead too.

peace.
:asian:


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## Cruentus (Jan 9, 2003)

*whitebelt:* Dude, I know that you were kidding (or at least I was hoping you were kidding!)  

*rmcrobertson:* Hey, I am in total agreement with you about not trying everything. If I am going to really try something, I weigh out whether it would be harmful for me to try it or not. In Martial Arts, I would try almost anything, for I think that the "majority" of martial arts is O.K. to try (at least for me)  as long as it is looked at in the light of logic. Read Arnisadors post though; that's what I'm talking about. Although it seems logical to believe that NTKO is crap, DKI people have been credible sources for other things. This is what would make me want to at least hear them out and see for myself, even if I am totally skeptical (which I am). 

I respect your decision, however, to not want to try them out.


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## Cruentus (Jan 9, 2003)

> this is a waste of time and serves simply to impress and awe the already converted-- it hints of cult-like behavior and who knows where that can lead too.



Good points, and they may be true. For the sake of DKI, I hope that this isn't the truth.


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 9, 2003)

To jazkiljok:

Well, I dunno. I looked up the quote you mentioned, and it's certainly there. It seems rather different to me--he doesn't claim to be teaching these KOs, certainly not in any quick fashion; the description involves moving on this guy quite physically at first--but then, it would. I will only add two things: a) the story appears in a context that certainly emphasizes the physical/psychological aspects of martial arts training--nothing too mystic there; b) as a teacher, I've never heard him try to put anything resembling this mysterious stuff across to students. He'll certainly discuss ki--but virtually all of that discussion revolves around stance-work, proper alignment, breathing, etc. 

I can mention two things: once, for sure, he hit me with something truly weird. Not physical; can't really explain, and I'll skip the description of what it felt like. That was about two-three years ago, and I'm still skeptical and impressed. Why am I skeptical? Well, I've been training there going on ten years (yikes!), and beyond everything else, I just plain like the guy. So, while I could note that Mr. Tatum relaxed is a different thing altogether  from Mr. Tatum feeling it's time to lay down some smackage on the likes of me--from time to time, you know, it's like mopping the floor. Just gotta wake the kids up, as well as the drifting intellectuals. And while I tend to associate this with something that isn't altogether physical or psychological--I recognize it as an aspect of transference, and I also tend to think that this is perfectly explicable. 

Believe me, I'd be outta there if I smelled cult. Of course, it is interesting that anybody who trains martial arts exhibits a lot of cultish behavior... 

And you know, even if there were something mysterious going on--and I believe my first post on this said as much--I'd only find it somewhat impressive.  I'm a hell of a lot more impressed by Mr. Tatum's teaching ability, to tell you the truth--and I think that's a lot more important, and a lot more mysterious, than these silly no-touch knockouts.

So I don't know. I don't necessarily think that the projection of ki is impossible; I'm skeptical anyway--and I'm damn sure skeptical about anybody who claims to be teaching this stuff in under about forty years.

I have to say, too, that the stuff I've seen in clips is just plain silly-looking.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * Mr. Dillman has a lot to offer, and I have often left his seminars saying "I should have thought of that!" about some joint-locking application of a kata. I believe he believes what he's saying. *



Yes I agree since he got 99.99% of the good stuff from the 6 seminars he went to given by my teacher or from the 12 video tapes on kata and bunkai he bought from our Association which are "chocker block" full of techniques. Before all of that Dillamn had no idea what bunkai, tuite, or even kyusho was as he himself stated in a 1984 Official Karate Article.
(Yilisifu was actually present during that interview)
Although given the way he learned, more than a few of his techniques have some major flaws..footwork for exampleor should I say the lack there of.



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * But I believe the no-touch KOs are stage magic, the theory of sound is wishful thinking (you use a different kiai for strikes in different directions and to different organ systems), and the color theory--if he's wearing a red shirt, hit to a heart point, etc.--is nonsense. *



Again, I agree. He has gone beyond pushing the envelope with that stuff.
Its horse pucky plain and simple.
For the believers its a new opiate. (something to get high on)



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * The DKI system is taking a hard knocking here from people who may not be directly familiar with it. *



I am VERY familiar with Georgie and his bag of tricks and the things he has point blankly Bsed about. 



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * DKI isn't a single Karate system--it is an approach that fits in with many Karate systems. Many DKI people are principally doing, say, Isshin-ryu and adding to it some grappling and pressure point techniques. *



Again, another training concept he borrowed from my teacher. (see 1984 Official Karate Article) Basically the stuff that works Georgie swiped from other peoplethe hocus-pocus stuff is all Georgies.



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * I'd still encourage karateka to investigate DKI. I'd go to more DKI seminars if there was more fighting technique and less "experimental" chi stuff. *



Quite frankly I would not.
For a couple of reasons.

1) As I have stated before his technique has a lot of holes in it.
2) The man has fabricated much of his Martial Resume.


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## chufeng (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Mr. Dillman has a lot of good stuff, and I've learned a lot of things at his seminars. I've met Mr. Corn and watched him teach and he's a knowledgeable martial artist also.
> 
> Mr. Dillman has a lot to offer, and I have often left his seminars saying "I should have thought of that!" about some joint-locking application of a kata. I believe he believes what he's saying. But I believe the no-touch KOs are stage magic, the theory of sound is wishful thinking (you use a different kiai for strikes in different directions and to different organ systems), and the color theory--if he's wearing a red shirt, hit to a heart point, etc.--is nonsense.
> ...



You know, I had an experience (well, actually several) where someone said or did ONE thing that opened my eyes to MANY more possibilities within my art...and I explored those new areas and grew...It is kind of the analogy I use very frequently about an onion...you peel one layer and there is another that looks like the last one, until you peel it and there's another one...and so on.

I think George Dillman had an epiphany when he met Oyata Sensei...he SAW many possibilities in his (Dillman's) art and explored them...and FOUND a lot of new stuff...BUT...the complaint that many have with George is the fabricated "autobiography" that he keeps advertising...

I've not met Mr. Dillman, but I know he certainly could have had a very profound awakening to the hidden aspects of his art...

Why would anyone, then, choose to CREATE a myth about its birth? Simply put...money...just like the TaeKwonDo myth of being an ANCIENT art...the myth that is advertised SELLS memberships better than the truth...

One of the things I vowed NOT to do, when I ventured onto my martial path, was to sell out...money won't buy your way into my system...if you want to sweat and work hard, you are welcome...
and if there is a small fee attached, it goes to pay for operating expenses...

Now, I don't begrudge anyone who wants to capitalize on their abilities...but to make false claims to make a buck...forgetaboudit.

IMHO

:asian:
chufeng


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## arnisador (Jan 9, 2003)

It may or may not be true that it has a lot of holes in it; I don't know. In my experience one there isn't much else like it that is easily available in the States. He and his people are the source for nontrivial interpretations of the kata. Seeing actual bunkai made me realize what bunk I'd been swallowing as a karate student. I give Mr. Dillman much credit for that.

I have been hit at his seminars in ways that caused me discomfort in an unusual way. He and his people are indeed doing something different. Mr. Dillman has not tried to knock me out--last time he was about to do so but was called away--and his students have failed the handful of times they have tried. In fairness, I have a high pain threshold for these sorts of things. I certainly believe that a great many of the contact KOs I've seen are legitimate KOs, and a physician seated net to me at one demo. agreed.


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## arnisador (Jan 9, 2003)

I don't know the truth about his resume. I'm simply not in a position to judge. I got good quality info. from him for years. Now, the quality is much more uneven.

I do know that there is a longstanding disagreement between him and his teacher(s), and I don't doubt what you say. I understand that there are people who are upset about the matter. But to me, I am only interested in what I can learn from him and his people. There's still a lot I could learn from them, if they'd teach it. Instead, it's mostly no-touch KOs, chi balls, and moving people with chi, it seems.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * In my experience one there isn't much else like it that is easily available in the States. *



There is plenty.
We have dojo all over the world. My teacher is gone most weekends giving seminars somewhere in the US or abroad.





> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * He and his people are the source for nontrivial interpretations of the kata. *



Actually they arent.



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * Seeing actual bunkai made me realize what bunk I'd been swallowing as a karate student. I give Mr. Dillman much credit for that. *



I will give him credit for being a master at marketing but that  is about it.
There are guys in our association that blow Georgie out of the water when it comes to skill level..they have studied with my teacher for 3 or more DECADES.Georgie went to 6 seminars. 




> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * I have been hit at his seminars in ways that caused me discomfort in an unusual way. He and his people are indeed doing something different. Mr. Dillman has not tried to knock me out--last time he was about to do so but was called away--and his students have failed the handful of times they have tried. In fairness, I have a high pain threshold for these sorts of things. *



See..thats just it. Pain has nothing to do with it.
When my teacher does that people wake up on the floor and say that felt very little or nothing. Good technique doesnt need a lot of power to be effective.in many cases it is counter productive.

In fact there is a home video of "Georgie" getting KO for the first time by my teacher..........."Georgie" woke up on the floor and said nobody hit him.


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## arnisador (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Actually they arent.*



You have in the past cited the fact that you're in Japan as a means of demonstrating that you're apt to know what's happening there. This is valid reasoning.

I'm in the States. I read the seminar announcements in the major martial arts mags., at E-Budo, and at my local martial arts store, and my instructor e-mails me ones of interest. I also check a number of web sites that I know often list seminars. In the U.S., seminars of this sort are overwhelmingly done by DKI instructors. (I live in the same town as Rick Clark, another well-known kyusho person, and haven't been able to arrange a meeting with him yet. He really keeps to himself.) I have no doubt that there are other schools out there, but the DKI group is by far the most accessible.

I'm in Terre Haute, IN. What haven't I noticed yet about good instruction in kyusho/authentic bunkai?


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## chufeng (Jan 9, 2003)

Arnisador,

I do think that G.Dillman may have many things to offer...
But I don't believe the "source" of those things as he relates it...
Also, I think George will say, or do anything, as long as the price is right...

That's all...

The next time an Oyata Sensei seminar is offered, GO...or a seminar by one of his senior students, GO...

...and even though Dillman may be able to "knockout" people, after meditating for three hours, and then preparing the individual, and then taking 30 seconds or so to knock someone out with the NTKO, HOW does that translate into self-defense, martial arts, or anything else?

It seems the best application of that skill is to slip into someone's wallet when he isn't looking....but it is NOT martial arts. 

IMHO

...and I am NOT trying to take away from the GOOD things that you have learned, or those who study in his system...bottom line, the emperor is NOT wearing any clothes...

:asian:
chufeng


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *You have in the past cited the fact that you're in Japan as a means of demonstrating that you're apt to know what's happening there. This is valid reasoning. *



You must be joking..they do not..I repeat they dont teach this kind of stuff in Japanese dojo. Not in the JKA or the JKF either.
There are basically only 2 places where you can get good instruction in these arts.
1)	Okinawa
2)	The US



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * I live in the same town as Rick Clark, another well-known kyusho person, and haven't been able to arrange a meeting with him yet. He really keeps to himself.) *



I had one of Clarks 4th dans visit me. He was a nice guy but his technique didnt work. He was into the "color by numbers kyusho" as well.




> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I'm in Terre Haute, IN. What haven't I noticed yet about good instruction in kyusho/authentic bunkai? *



One of my students trained with Will Higembacken (sp?) in Terre Haute and said he is a good guyand yes Will is a Dillmanite. 
But some of the stuff my student learned from him looked decent.
You might want to check him out.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *
> The next time an Oyata Sensei seminar is offered, GO...or a seminar by one of his senior students, GO... *



His students dont give seminars, mainly because we are not in it for the money.

Besides, it's better to learn from Mr. Oyata himself.


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## chufeng (Jan 9, 2003)

RyuShiKan,

That's a good thing...

I plan on bringing out our teacher once a year for seminars...
We brought him out last October and already are planning for the next "visit" scheduled for this October...

Our admission fee just covers expenses...no one makes money...everyone learns.

I would never presume to offer to personally do a seminar in our system as long as my teacher were available to do it.

:asian:
chufeng


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## arnisador (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *You must be joking..they do not..I repeat they dont teach this kind of stuff in Japanese dojo. *



No, that wasn't my point.



> *One of my students trained with Will Higembacken (sp?) in Terre Haute and said he is a good guyand yes Will is a Dillmanite. *



I know Will Higginbotham and have been to several seminars of his in Indianapolis. (He has not lived in Terre Haute for many years.) I have seen him perform no-touch KOs. He's a very nice person and I enjoy his events. he also does SCJJ and Modern Arnis.



> *
> But some of the stuff my student learned from him looked decent.
> You might want to check him out. *



He is a DKI instructor and I understood you to be recommending a different _style_ not merely a different instructor within DKI.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> He is a DKI instructor and I understood you to be recommending a different style not merely a different instructor within DKI. *



I don't know about any of his no touch KOs, I guess that's a new thing.
However, I do give credit where credit is due....no matter who they study from.........the techniques he taught to my present student had merit.


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## Mike Clarke (Jan 10, 2003)

This subject is all just too silly if you ask me.[I know,,,who's asking??].

I know Erle Montaigue and I know what he thinks about all this, and Mr. Dillman. He pretty much ripped his claims to bits in the Australian martial arts press some years back, and he used science as well as common sense to do it.

My offer is still on the table regarding all this.

Mr. Dillman's followers remind me of the people who believe in Sai Baba [another show man of mega proportions]. This guy reckons he can pull stuff out of the celestial void like dimonds and stuff [though mostly it's only ash, as that's all he can hide in his hand I reckon].

The couple of seminars I have of Mr. Dillman teaching [if you can call it that], show me a man more interested in his image and his lofty position in relation to the other people in the room, than a 'teacher'. His senior student on the tapes seems no better.

I have to wonder why anyone [outside the military's drill sgts] would talk to someone that way anyway. And why would anyone want to listen? Do you guys like to be talked down to in this way?

And as for leaving his seminars thinking,"Why didn't I think of that?" Let me know when anyone has found a way to remember every single possibility there is to any given attack. Of course people are going to discover things that you have not thought of before, but this does not mean they know 'more' than you do.

I've said enough I think.

Mike.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *.The couple of seminars I have of Mr. Dillman teaching [if you can call it that], show me a man more interested in his image and his lofty position in relation to the other people in the room, than a 'teacher'. His senior student on the tapes seems no better.
> 
> I have to wonder why anyone [outside the military's drill sgts] would talk to someone that way anyway. And why would anyone want to listen? Do you guys like to be talked down to in this way? *



Mike, 

Some foreigners like that kind of atmosphere. I guess it makes them feel like their in Asian Mode or something.
Maybe you have seen them when you were Okinawa. I know I have seen them here in Japan and abroad. 
You know, the students that every other word out of their gob is Ous and they bow and scrape before the Master for no reason at pretending to Samurai vassals kneeling before the all mighty Shogun or some such rot. 
I see foreigners do it in some dojo here and it makes me sick for two reasons.
1)	There is no need for the much bowing and scraping.
2)	Some Japanese teachers I know eat that stuff up with a shovel

I guess if someone needs a good ego massage that is the best thing for them. 
Personally I would rather see my students sweating their a$$es off from working out than licking my boots.


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## yilisifu (Jan 10, 2003)

I will say it again.....Dillman learned his nerve-point and kata interpretation material from Master Seiyu Oyata who did NOT authorize him to teach it.  I know because I was there (Mr. Oyata is a friend of mine).  Dillman's "light strike" knockouts are NOT anywhere close to Mr. Oyata's level of skill.  By comparison, they are quite crude and heavy.

   Mr. Oyata never had anything to do with "no-touch knockouts" because no such thing exists, or ever has.  It's right up there with moving people from ten feet away.  The only reality to it is that it makes a lot of money from people who are fooled by these charaltans.

   I have been involved in the study of martial arts for better than four decades and I have watched the martial arts scene change over the years.  These "no-touch knockouts" and "empty force" exhibitions are some of the worst prostitutions of martial arts that I've ever witnessed.

   Listen to those who have gone before you and pay attention.


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## TkdWarrior (Jan 10, 2003)

well it's a kind a off topic but i'll post it


> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *
> 
> Mr. Dillman's followers remind me of the people who believe in Sai Baba [another show man of mega proportions]. This guy reckons he can pull stuff out of the celestial void like dimonds and stuff [though mostly it's only ash, as that's all he can hide in his hand I reckon].
> Mike. *


Mike there r 2 sai baba's lived in india in different time line the one u talked about is very much faked n arrested by police n taken into account for fraud some years ago... the real sai baba was lived around last century(18??-19??) dunno the real time...
but he's worshiped more like a good saint rather than any magician. the only MAGIC u can suppose was his healing powers. it was like he came for ppl n then died for them...
-TkdWarrior-


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## mtabone (Jan 10, 2003)

One's only limits, are the Boundaries set for oneself.


I am not a man. I am the Universe itself!-- Morihei Ueshiba


"Our worst fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure..." Nelson Mandela 




Michael Tabone


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 10, 2003)

Here's an idea. Let's put aside everything we've written so far. Let's skip over (for a moment) the idea that all this stuff is just what it looks like--fakery. Let's skip over the problems Mr. Dillman et al. have had with other teachers, and other organizations, in the art. Let's skip the notion that ya gots to try it vs. no, you really don't. Let's skip questions about suggestibility and hypnotism. Let's even skip over the worrying cultishness that some of this stuff implies.

Just as a thought-experiment, let's assume for a moment that it's all true. Let's assume that the no-touch stuff really works, that the videos just look fake because that's the limitations of video. Let's assume that the testimonials are really true---what's more, let's assume that the, "no-touch," stuff can be fairly-rapidly taught, which seems to be the claim. Let's assume, in brief, that the DKI is the berries.

So. What do we end up with? One suggestion comes out of a book I've been looking through lately, John Bracy and Liu Xing-Han's "Ba Gua: Hidden Knowledge in the Taoist Internal Martial Art." In sections titled, "What Happened to the Ancient Knowledge of Internal Energy," and, "The Arcane, Mysterious and Symbolic in Ba Gua Zhang," among other things, there's this: "The main objective...would be to unify with the primal forces (yuan) of the universe and restore the yuan qi, the "primordial qi," within...{the} body." (37). 

OK. So---what's the purpose of the DKI's teaching all this no-touch stuff? Somehow I suspect the motives are a little less lofty--nothing wrong with that, I guess, since one of the complaints about a lot of American martial arts (especially American kenpo, mine own) is that they're a cheapening and commercialization of the real thing. Somehow, too, I suspect that there's none of this training for decades and decades involved--it's another short cut.  Somehow--and I certainly recognize that lots of traditional martial artists were and are out to put food on the table--I smell money. 

Perhaps all American martial arts do the same---less sweat, less time, less commitment--trading money for mastery. But I think that even if this stuff works--and leaving the thought-experiment behind, I don't think it works--what I don't like is the direct, clear, completely straightforward commercialization of something that is right near the heart of what the martial arts are all about, beyond plain vanilla self-defense.

In other words, I think what DKI represents is the intrusion of capitalism into even the spirituality of martial arts. Put another way, it's turning even the intangible aspect of the arts--qi, spirit, mind, heart, guts, whatever ya wanna call it--into something that can easily be bought and sold. No wonder that everything solid melts into air, when even the stuff I go to train for that is beyond self defense, physical fitness, seeing my friends, starts to become just another product to get stuck on the shelf and sold.

Thanks for the discussion; it's been interesting.


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## KennethKu (Jan 10, 2003)

No one escapes the laws of physics, unless you are Superman, Batman, Spiderman etc.

How can you produce impact energy transfer w/o making contact?   It simply cannot happen. * Dillman is a fraud.*   There is a million US dollar for him, IF he can prove he can do it. Easy money for the taking.  http://www.randi.org/research/index.html


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## KennethKu (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> I will say it again.....Dillman learned his nerve-point and kata interpretation material from Master Seiyu Oyata who did NOT authorize him to teach it.  I know because I was there (Mr. Oyata is a friend of mine).  Dillman's "light strike" knockouts are NOT anywhere close to Mr. Oyata's level of skill.  By comparison, they are quite crude and heavy.
> 
> Mr. Oyata never had anything to do with "no-touch knockouts" because no such thing exists, or ever has.  It's right up there with moving people from ten feet away.  The only reality to it is that it makes a lot of money from people who are fooled by these charaltans.
> ...



Thanks for the info.


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## white belt (Jan 10, 2003)

A lot of really good intelligent posts, from a wide variety of backgrounds, on this string.

I don't take the NTKO thing seriously, as seen in my other posts.  Now, lets pretend that a team of unbiased experts researched Mr. Dillman and he passed with flying colors.  No Touch Energy from his hands is causing trauma enough to an individual's nervous system or brain to make them lose conciousness.  Now how safe would that be?  If I had a cell phone that knocked me out from excessive Electromagnetic emissions, would I keep putting the frickin' thing up to my ear and not be worried about tumors or cancer?  Bottom line is Dillman himself claims he has not perfected this "technique".  How then does he know that it isn't causing irreversable damage on his test subjects?  1) He is without concern for the health of his students and subscribers which would be immoral.  2) He isn't worried because he knows it is Bull***t.  So, there you go.  He is either potentially dangerous to his followers health and immoral or a charlatan and immoral.  Boxers lose a little bit of brain function each time they are hit with a dazing shot let alone a KO!  I thought his "contact" studies were interesting and now I see this poop.  I vote charlatan.

white belt


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## jazkiljok (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *To jazkiljok:
> 
> Well, I dunno. I looked up the quote you mentioned, and it's certainly there. It seems rather different to me--he doesn't claim to be teaching these KOs, certainly not in any quick fashion; the description involves moving on this guy quite physically at first--but then, it would. I will only add two things: a) the story appears in a context that certainly emphasizes the physical/psychological aspects of martial arts training--nothing too mystic there; b) as a teacher, I've never heard him try to put anything resembling this mysterious stuff across to students. He'll certainly discuss ki--but virtually all of that discussion revolves around stance-work, proper alignment, breathing, etc.
> ...



thanks for your response.

Your skepticism is well placed- one time in 10 years isnt a great track record for chi projecting (unlike Dillman students who seem to have to take two steps back from his chi blasts every time he waves his hand to say hi  just kidding... i think...) 

You kind of lost me on most of what you say-  --you seem to be suggesting that no touch chi projection can be done if you SPEND MORE TIME at it?

it doesn't matter how many years you spend or how good a martial artist you are-- you ain't defying the laws of physics. 

- in any case-- i guess i'm more adamant about  my skepticism - i mean you really can't think of a few other reasons you might have felt "weird" that day?


Jaz K.
:asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 10, 2003)

Sure: I can think of lots of reasons to be skeptical.

However, the particular weird occasion I have in mind remains of interest to me because there wasn't anything special about the day, the event, the audience (there wasn't one), the context (I'd been dummying for another student during his lesson). And I might add this--I didn't get KO'd, or even "hit," in the usual sense. 

Maybe it was a TIA on my part. But it was something utterly unique, in my experience.

I guess I'm not absolutely willing to rule out some weird applications by very talented people who have studied for a very long time. I just don't know for sure--though I suspect, IF there's anything to it, that we'll eventually uncover some quite physical laws in operation. 

But I am pretty damn sure that this no-touch crap is really just crap. It sure looks that way in the video clips; the fact that you never seem to see anybody who isn't a student of these guys falling over is suspicious; the pompous way the practitioner acts before, during and after looks a lot more like faith healing ("LET the devils leave this woman! LET Satan depart! DEPART, I command!" with the dope slap to the forehead...) than anything else.

And I insist on two things: even if real, if you trot it out to show off all the time, it's just a parlor trick. Frankly, I know a 14-year-old student with CP who stood up straight and ran across the mat to get her last brown belt certificate (she started walking around 7) and I find that a hell of a lot more mysterious and wonderful. Ya wants chi? There it is, in a MEANINGFUL sense.


----------



## D.Cobb (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I will give him credit for being a master at marketing but that  is about it.
> There are guys in our association that blow Georgie out of the water when it comes to skill level..they have studied with my teacher for 3 or more DECADES.Georgie went to 6 seminars. *




Whilst I understand where you are coming from, RyuShiKan, I was wondering even though GD only went to six seminars, do you think it may be possible that he may have researched other sources? Is it possible that the 6 seminars opened his eyes to what could be acheived and so he followed a different path?

On a second point, for the fans of Mr. Montague, he made claims in an Australian martial arts mag, in the 80's and 90's of having caused his senior student of feeling quite unwell, whilst exploring applications from forms. He stated something along the lines of, the movement is a quick waving motion with both hands directly in front of you. He said that he couldn't make sense of it as a self defense move until he did it about 6" in front of his student's body and his student became quite ill and nauseous. Maybe not a KO but to the sceptic, it should sound like the same "mumbo jumbo".

--Dave:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *Whilst I understand where you are coming from, RyuShiKan, I was wondering even though GD only went to six seminars, do you think it may be possible that he may have researched other sources? Is it possible that the 6 seminars opened his eyes to what could be acheived and so he followed a different path? *



It could be possible but I am wondering from where.
Dillman claims some of his knowledge came from Hohan Soken.a man he met 1 time. I doubt he learned a great deal in a meeting that lasted less than a day.
Also, this Hohan meeting took place before the 1984 Official Karate Magazine article where he comments on the tuite and kyusho that was done on him by my teacher.and says..its incredible, its like nothing I have ever seen before..
So by that statement it would seem he had never seen tuite or kyusho.
More likely he learned what little he knows from the 6 seminars & 12 tapes on kata and bunkai my teacher had for sale.


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## yilisifu (Jan 11, 2003)

At the first seminar which Dillman attended (one of Master Oyata's seminars), Dillman didn't sweat one drop...he ran around all day with a tape recorder and a notebook.  We pointed that out to Mr. Oyata who wasn't very impressed with Dillman's lack of enthusiasm for sweating into his socks.

   Dillman met Hohan Soken once.  He also claims to have trained under Soken's hier, Fuji Kise.  However, in Okinawa it is understood that Kise doesn't care for Americans and won't teach them the real thing.

   So much for Dillman's claim to fame.  He's always been a showboat; I remember him "training" Muhammed Ali and claiming that it was his training that enabled Ali to win his biggest fight in those days.  Dillman even went so far as to wrestle bears (!) to show off his great karate skills....of course, this bear wasn't wild; it was a trained bear used in circus shows....But I think they both have the same kind of ambition; put on a nice circus show and enjoy the fruits of your labor.  The bear gets fresh fish while Dillman pads his wallet.  Both smell the same.


----------



## Astra (Jan 11, 2003)

This seems like more McDojo BS to me.
As much as I think this is fake, I have to point out one thing:
The argument of "limiting to laws pf physics" is weak - our current laws are incomplete and even incorrect during certain conditions.


----------



## KennethKu (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Astra _
> This seems like more McDojo BS to me.
> As much as I think this is fake, I have to point out one thing:
> The argument of "limiting to laws pf physics" is weak - our current laws are incomplete and even incorrect during certain conditions.



If you think you can defy the laws of physics, there is a US$1 million for you.   Talk is cheap. There is US$ 1 million of prize waiting to be claimed.  Go for it.

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html


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## arnisador (Jan 11, 2003)

The Amazing Randi is taking heat from the Yellow Bamboo folks on rma.

Mr. Dillman always talks about his research. He is actively trying to improve his understanding and knowledge. The no-touch KOs are an aspect of this, apparently--a dead end, I suspect, but research is like that. I've certainly published "Nope, this won't work, but we had to try it" articles and technical reports before.

Mr. Montague is another person who has made extreme claims about his chi-related abilities, I believe.


----------



## kang (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> * Dillman is a fraud.*
> 
> say that to his face if you are so brave, and see how long you remain upright and coherent.


----------



## white belt (Jan 11, 2003)

Arnisador,

Montaigue is guilty of serious talk about having mystical abilties?  Sheesh!  All I have seen from the guy seems to poo poo this stuff like NTKO.  Can you educate me a bit on this?  I know he has pulled parlor tricks for amusement and later told people the way he did it.  E tu Erle?

white belt


----------



## white belt (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mtabone _
> *One's only limits, are the Boundaries set for oneself.
> 
> 
> ...



"Of course I was born in a hospital,....I wanted to be close to me Mother when it happened!"-----Curly, of the 3 Stooges.

"We'll call it a draw!"-----The Black Knight, at the end of his famous duel with King Arthur, in Monty Python's Holy Grail.

"Every day and in every way I'm getting better and better!"-----Cheif Inspector Dreyfuss from The Return of The Pink Panther.  He was in a MENTAL INSTITUTION when saying this.  Sounds like somebody practicing NTKO Ki Gong in a mirror to me.

white belt


----------



## arnisador (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> *Arnisador,
> 
> Montaigue is guilty of serious talk about having mystical abilties?  Sheesh!  All I have seen from the guy seems to poo poo this stuff like NTKO.  Can you educate me a bit on this? *



It's possible that I am misremembering. Let me dig around.


----------



## white belt (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *whitebelt: Dude, I know that you were kidding (or at least I was hoping you were kidding!)
> 
> Paul,
> ...


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kang _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## mtabone (Jan 11, 2003)

White Belt,

Reason why I say the above quotes, is ANYTHING is possible. And of course the McDojo/McDojangs, fakes, frauds, etc. are out there,
why not just punch and kick? 


Don't Mind what you others do, mind what you do.


Michael Tabone


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## white belt (Jan 11, 2003)

MTabone,

I agree that what is possible, man has not yet fully conceived.  I just draw the line with this subject.  My quotes are just a balance to your more intelligent quotes.  They basically voice my attitude toward "Invisible Chop, Chop!".  My quotes also reveal I am not above "Self Defecating Humor".  (I hope!). I have enough 
people, who are religious, question whether or not I am into the "occult" just because I teach an Oriental Martial Art.  Yes, I am serious.  I don't need George Dillman running around "afixin' to hex" the decent folk.  That kind of publicity damages all legitimate systems.  There are people I have convinced that now know I am not into mysticism.  What if Dillman became more well known among the uninitiated?  My ability to take away some naive people's fears would then be hampered.  There are many more reasons, in this thread why it just isn't healthy for the Martial Arts in general.  If anybody thinks I am out of line, I can take my lumps like a man.

Thanks,
white belt


----------



## yilisifu (Jan 11, 2003)

Actually, Astra is correct.  Several of the "laws" of physics have been rewritten several times...some during my lifetime (I'm dating myself here).  But none have been altogether reversed which is what Dillman's "touchie no feelie" knockout would require.

   The Amazing Randi is every bit as fraudulent, I suspect, as those he belittles.  Randi refuses to believe in anything that cannot be "scientifically" proven.  Of course, he generally sets himself up as the one who designs the experiment/demonstration rather than having to pay well-trained scientists to do it right.....
   And since things like Love cannot be scientifically proven, I guess he doesn't believe in that, either.  It's easy to poopoo everything when you shut your senses off to the reality around you.

   As for the youngster who dares anyone to tell Dillman to his face that he's a fraud.....I would happily do that if he ever holds a seminar anywhere near me.  I'm not about to spend my own money to travel to some far off seminar so I can tell a fraud what I think of him.....
   The fact is, White Belt, I WAS THERE in living color when Dillman ran around with his notebook and tape recorder at his first Oyata seminar.  I SAW what he did.  And what he didn't do.

   He didn't train for a second.  He didn't sweat at all.  But he got lots of photos with him and Oyata together.

   He's not had the cajones to face Oyata since he started doing seminars and writing books himself.  He's scared to death of Oyata as well he should be.

   I have no time for people like this.  They are not martial artists.  They're charlatans, plain and simple.


----------



## white belt (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *Actually, Astra is correct.  Several of the "laws" of physics have been rewritten several times...some during my lifetime (I'm dating myself here).  But none have been altogether reversed which is what Dillman's "touchie no feelie" knockout would require.
> 
> The Amazing Randi is every bit as fraudulent, I suspect, as those he belittles.  Randi refuses to believe in anything that cannot be "scientifically" proven.  Of course, he generally sets himself up as the one who designs the experiment/demonstration rather than having to pay well-trained scientists to do it right.....
> ...



Yilisifu,

I, white belt, DON'T SUPPORT DILLMAN!  I think you meant to direct your comments to another(?).  This is a perfect example of what I mentioned in my last post.  I am being lumped in with a Dillman NTKO supporter by mistake.  I hate it when that happens!  Yilisifu, I am from Missouri like you.  I study Ushomi style.

Good post by the way,
white belt


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> * Yilisifu, I am from Missouri like you.  I study Ushomi style.
> *



How odd.......I am from Missouri too........There really is somthing to that quote on the license plates there.

"Missouri ....the show me state"


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## white belt (Jan 11, 2003)

The UshomiKan is in Kansas City.  It is headed by the prestigious GM Mendula Oblongota.  If GD NTKOs there, I will take up firing "Blanks" with Tae Bo and passing the guard with Richard Simmons.


white belt


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> *The UshomiKan is in Kansas City.  It is headed by the prestigious GM Mendula Oblongota.  If GD NTKOs there, I will take up firing "Blanks" with Tae Bo and passing the guard with Richard Simmons.
> 
> 
> white belt *




:rofl:


----------



## Cthulhu (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *  The Amazing Randi is every bit as fraudulent, I suspect, as those he belittles.  Randi refuses to believe in anything that cannot be "scientifically" proven.  Of course, he generally sets himself up as the one who designs the experiment/demonstration rather than having to pay well-trained scientists to do it right.....
> *



Bear in mind that the main reason the Amazing Randi sets up the experiments rather than relying on the scientists is because he himself is a trained magician and knows all of the sleight-of-hand and misdirection tricks used by those he debunks.  No matter how smart or educated a scientist is, he/she will still fall for a skilled sleight-of-hand trick if he/she were not skilled in that area.

Cthulhu


----------



## D.Cobb (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> *Arnisador,
> 
> Montaigue is guilty of serious talk about having mystical abilties?  Sheesh!  All I have seen from the guy seems to poo poo this stuff like NTKO.  Can you educate me a bit on this?  I know he has pulled parlor tricks for amusement and later told people the way he did it.  E tu Erle?
> ...




I originally posted this on page 7 in a message to RyuShiKan, it seems somehow appropriate to repost it here....

On a second point, for the fans of Mr. Montague, he made claims in an Australian martial arts mag, in the 80's and 90's of having caused his senior student of feeling quite unwell, whilst exploring applications from forms. He stated something along the lines of, the movement is a quick waving motion with both hands directly in front of you. He said that he couldn't make sense of it as a self defense move until he did it about 6" in front of his student's body and his student became quite ill and nauseous. Maybe not a KO but to the sceptic, it should sound like the same "mumbo jumbo". 


I have just moved house, so it will take me a while to find the issue in question, but if anyone wants details, I will endeavour to dig it out.

I would like to make it clear that I am neither poo pooing, nor defending either of these guys but I am prepared to question their yea and naysayers equally. 
As for me, I have doubts which will stay with me until I have felt it myself. However I am not prepared to say it can't be done, as there is so much in this world that can't be explained, and I have seen some pretty wierd stuff myself.
Another point that seems to have been overlooked, is the fact that EM makes claims on one of those earlier links that he was the first to use acupuncture points ie. St9 instead of 'the side of the neck', so if this is true the he is the one responsible for the "colour by numbers kyoshu" and not GD. 
Just some more points to ponder I guess....

--Dave


:asian:


----------



## sammy3170 (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *An article in the second U.S. issue of Budo International magazine, which appears to exist principally to feature articles on people selling videos in the same issue, discusses Evan Pantazi and his no-touch knockouts. He is a DKI student and is selling a tape on KOs. The article is very positive about the no-touch KOs. *



I'm not going to read all of the posts just tell you what I know.  No touch knockouts can be performed but don't always work. My instructor has performed them before but they have no application in self defence (maybe just in chi development).   George Dillman does them but he did try to knock out Benny the Jet once to no avail.  George said that Benny had a strong mind but Benny said he really wanted to feel it and was not trying to block anything and that he didn't even feel a thing.  Who knows why someone would want to make a video on them.  Sounds a but silly to me.

Cheers
Sammy


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## lhommedieu (Jan 11, 2003)

I have the greatest respect for Randi; his expose of Philippine psychic surgeons, to give just one example from so many others, provides a valuable service insofar as it shows how easily charlatans can manipulate vulnerable people for money.  However, there are scores of traditional martial artists and healers who dont perform parlor tricks and dont rip people off with slight-of-hand - and yet subscribe to beliefs that are pre-scientific.  There are scores of beliefs that are unscientific as well, e.g., the belief in God or that love is a necessary component of a sucessful marriage.  What we are really talking about here is the incommensurability of cultural concepts.  Ive been knocked out while boxing and knocked down doing Chinese internal arts; both resulted in horizontal meditation and both would explain the why of what happened in metaphors that are incommensurate with each other.  Ive also treated back pain with Motrin, on the one hand, and have gotten incredible results through a combination of acupuncture, craniosacral therapy, bonesetting, and Chinese herbs.  The ontological foundations of each approach are entirely different, as are the languages used to describe them.  And to argue that one worked because it was based on Western science and other merely because of the placebo effect is very questionable, in my opinion:  acute, spasmodic back pain usually doesnt respond to sugar pills of any variety.

Western science is a wonderful thing.  If I ever needed necessary surgery or a carcinoma treated Id head for the nearest specialist.  On the other hand, Ive seen many, many people who had surgery for back pain that ended up much worse off from the experience  a healthy dose of skepticism about what the experts say is just as warranted as any other kind.

With respect to Chinese medicine, consider the following:

Eisenberg, D. Encounters With Qi:  Exploring Chinese Medicine
Rose, K. et. al. A Brief History of Qi
Kleinman, A. Writing at the Margin: Discourse Between Anthropology and Medicine

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## white belt (Jan 11, 2003)

D. Cobb,

Any verifiable info. is appreciated.  Some Martial Artists are a mixture of legitimate knowledge and make believe.  It is a travesty to mix the two and go public.

white belt


----------



## D.Cobb (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> *D. Cobb,
> 
> Any verifiable info. is appreciated.  Some Martial Artists are a mixture of legitimate knowledge and make believe.  It is a travesty to mix the two and go public.
> ...



No worries, if I don't find it before this thread closes, I will dig it out and post a copy in a new thread. It may take a while though... we've been here a few weeks already, but it seems that the more we unpack, the more there is to unpack!
--Dave


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## chufeng (Jan 12, 2003)

White belt posted:
" Yilisifu, I am from Missouri like you"

Actually, YiLiSifu lives in Iowa...

Born in Washington state...and the son of an Army officer, he's lived in many places...he might have spent some time in Ft. Leonard Wood, Mo. ... but that would have been many years ago.

:asian:
chufeng


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## jazkiljok (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *I
> 
> Western science is a wonderful thing.  If I ever needed necessary surgery or a carcinoma treated Id head for the nearest specialist.  On the other hand, Ive seen many, many people who had surgery for back pain that ended up much worse off from the experience  a healthy dose of skepticism about what the experts say is just as warranted as any other kind.
> *



the one area that tcm has most western doctors interested in is its success with managing and relieving pain.

in western medicine pain is one of the least understood areas of how the human body functions- or so i've read once said by the head of  the pain center at UCLA.

peace:asian:


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## KennethKu (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mtabone _
> 
> Don't Mind what you others do, mind what you do.


Charlatans must not be allowed to fleece the students. Why even bother to learn MA if you are not willing to stand up for what is right? Why even bother to be a human being?


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## yilisifu (Jan 12, 2003)

Sorry, White Belt!  I must have had you kung-fuzed with someone else! :rofl: 

   Actually, I live very close to the Missouri border........


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## bob919 (Jan 16, 2003)

its just amyth like god


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## mtabone (Jan 16, 2003)

bob919,

Just out to cause trouble ah?


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## white belt (Jan 16, 2003)

Faithful Subscribers,

At this juncture, I must point out that the Ushomikan Martial Art Temple, in Kansas City, Missouri, is not affilated in any way, shape or form with the Ushomi Atheistic Society, in Hannibal, Mo., of which Bob919 is a charter member.   We constantly get their hate mail and hopefully someday it will stop!

That being said, good luck Bob 919 and have a nice day.  

There have been some reports that the NTKO concept was started by one phrase at a private seminar.  "Don't touch me there!".  After which there was much waving of hands!  And thus an industry was born.

white belt


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## white belt (Jan 16, 2003)

NOTICE:

The hazing of new members at the Ushomi Aetheistic Society has reached a NEW LOW.  Apparently there have been reports of "prospects" wearing Turbans with fake beards and tunics that run through the local Baptist Churches firing cap guns in the air.  If someone reading this post really does know the dreaded "NO TOUCH KNOCK OUT" we might have a "job" for you.  Please contact the Ushomikan Martial Art Temple in Kansas City, Mo. ASAP.  We are an equal opportunity employer.

white belt


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## Cruentus (Jan 16, 2003)

> Apparently there have been reports of "prospects" wearing Turbans with fake beards and tunics that run through the local Baptist Churches firing cap guns in the air.



What a bunch of A-holes.


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## bob919 (Jan 16, 2003)

i didn't mean to offend anyone just my opinion thats what these boards are for right?

i dont understand anything white belt said


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## white belt (Jan 16, 2003)

Paul,

Are you messing with my head again?   Learn NTKO and go "Take out the garbage" for us in Mo.!  Or, is it "Time to make the doughnuts".?  Damn those catch phrases!  I think I have them mixed up!

white belt


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## white belt (Jan 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bob919 _
> *i didn't mean to offend anyone just my opinion thats what these boards are for right?
> 
> i dont understand anything white belt said  *



Bob 919,

The Ushomikan Martial Art Temple is struggling right now in dealing with the Ushomikan Aethestic Society's activities.  If our problems aren't enough, we have a disgruntled ex-student who started an unauthorized offshoot of our system called "ShuruKan".  They make wild claims about doing NTKOS AND cooking Bratwurst in their palms using Chi, while holding a horsestance,  and listening to old Slim Whitman records very loudly.  Don't play dumb, we are on to you! 

white belt


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## D.Cobb (Jan 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> *Bob 919,
> 
> The Ushomikan Martial Art Temple is struggling right now in dealing with the Ushomikan Aethestic Society's activities.  If our problems aren't enough, we have a disgruntled ex-student who started an unauthorized offshoot of our system called "ShuruKan".  They make wild claims about doing NTKOS AND cooking Bratwurst in their palms using Chi, while holding a horsestance,  and listening to old Slim Whitman records very loudly.  Don't play dumb, we are on to you!
> ...



Ok whitebelt, now you've done it!! You can make fun, all you like, of people who can cook using Chi power. But you'd better have respect for anyone who is game enough to play Slim Whitman loudly. :soapbox: 
Jeez!! Some people got nooooo respect!

--Dave


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jan 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *Ok whitebelt, now you've done it!! You can make fun, all you like, of people who can cook using Chi power. But you'd better have respect for anyone who is game enough to play Slim Whitman loudly. :soapbox:
> Jeez!! Some people got nooooo respect!
> 
> --Dave *



Slim Whitman............I have all his albums....._"Uno paloma blanca................"_


----------



## D.Cobb (Jan 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Slim Whitman............I have all his albums....."Uno paloma blanca................" *



How can anybody not like this guy? His level of tact and diplomacy can only be matched by his musical taste. RyuShiKan, I bow to you...

:asian: 


:rofl: :rofl:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jan 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *How can anybody not like this guy? His level of tact and diplomacy can only be matched by his musical taste. RyuShiKan, I bow to you...
> 
> :asian:
> ...



Just kidding about his albums.I dont have a single one of them.

I think K-Tel records used to advertise Slim Whitman Albums on TV when I was in high School as having sold more Albums than the Beatles and Elvis. (out right BS advertising)
The local Rock-n-Roll radio show would make fun of Slim Whitman and rate bad records by how much of a Slim Factor they had. 
Or if a caller guessed the wrong answer to a musical trivia question the DJs would not only send them a copy of Slim Whitman but play one of his songs as punishment.
They invited Slim Whitman in for an interview once and he got pissed off about half way through and left.


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## D.Cobb (Jan 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *"pain is weakness leaving your body"*



I have to ask, where did this quote come from?
I think either Joe Lewis or Bill Superfoot Wallace, used to say that, "pain is fear leaving your body", but I'm not sure.
Anyhoo, I like Slim Whitman.

I firmly believe that the best thing to come out of America, aside from the road into Canada, is old time country music.

--Dave:rofl:


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 19, 2003)

"pain is weakness leaving your body"

Came from a poster I saw on a US Marine Corps base I was working on a while back.

Just thought it was kind of applicable for martial arts.

You want old time country music from the US......try Steve Riley & The Mamou Playboys.

http://www.mamouplayboys.com/

http://lafourche.k12.la.us/teymard/steveriley/


----------



## Kirk (Jan 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *"pain is weakness leaving your body"
> 
> Came from a poster I saw on a US Marine Corps base I was working on a while back.
> ...



Another I like (same source different Marine I'm sure):

Nobody ever drowned in sweat.


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## Mike Clarke (Jan 19, 2003)

This guy Slim Whitman, is he any relation to Gloria Marshall 

Okay...okay...I'm just asking!

And if pain is just fear leaving your body, what's that god awful smell all about??????

Mike.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *
> And if pain is just fear leaving your body, what's that god awful smell all about??????
> 
> Mike. *



Dee smerr of one hand crapping


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## Mike Clarke (Jan 19, 2003)

Domo arigato.

Mike


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## white belt (Jan 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *This guy Slim Whitman, is he any relation to Gloria Marshall
> 
> Okay...okay...I'm just asking!
> ...



Mr. Clarke,

If there is a faint hissing noise involved and it is not coming from you when the smell is detected,  IMMEDIATELY crouch down and quickly do push hands toward and out the nearest door!  The secret of "KimChi Gong" has been developed at the Shurukan and they are hiring out "Kim Chi Gong Ninja Assassins" for a fee.  A nemesis of yours may now be affiliated with the sinister goings on in MO.  A recent contact of mine in Canada disclosed they may be disguising themselves as @SSCLOWNS and doing Bar Mitzvahs.  Warn your Jewish friends.

sssssssssssss....wuzat!
white belt  

p.s.
Go to the the "Health Tips" area and enter the "Ephedra debate" thread.  If you or any of your associates can pass the "Ferret test", posted by me, then the "stench of death" may not overcome you by surprise anytime soon.


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## chufeng (Jan 19, 2003)

It's just BAD qi...

If you remain rooted and pull qi from the bubbling well point...extend out through your fingers...you will suffer no ill effects...

Yes, it may smell awful and be a "distraction" but discipline will temper that.   (just trying to help)

:asian:
chufeng


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## arnisador (Jan 26, 2003)

In the current (March 2003) issue of Black Belt, there is an article on Evan Pantazi. He discusses the hook punch and its use with pressure points. Because of "bioelectrical polarity" he recommends e.g. punching with the right hand while standing on the left foot, holding the right foot up at about the level of the left knee. (See the picture in the magazine.) This changes the polarity and increases the effect of the punch, it is said.

What utter nonsense. It's downright foolish.


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## jazkiljok (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *In the current (March 2003) issue of Black Belt, there is an article on Evan Pantazi. He discusses the hook punch and its use with pressure points. Because of "bioelectrical polarity" he recommends e.g. punching with the right hand while standing on the left foot, holding the right foot up at about the level of the left knee. (See the picture in the magazine.) This changes the polarity and increases the effect of the punch, it is said.
> 
> What utter nonsense. It's downright foolish. *



this stuff is like some virus spreading-- there's way too much focus by the MA rags on these silly, inpractical and ultimately unprovable techniques based around metaphysical hooey.


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## white belt (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *In the current (March 2003) issue of Black Belt, there is an article on Evan Pantazi. He discusses the hook punch and its use with pressure points. Because of "bioelectrical polarity" he recommends e.g. punching with the right hand while standing on the left foot, holding the right foot up at about the level of the left knee. (See the picture in the magazine.) This changes the polarity and increases the effect of the punch, it is said.
> 
> What utter nonsense. It's downright foolish. *



Arnisador,

I have the issue of BB mentioned.  What surprises me is Evan not claiming that this one legged stance is a version of the Crane stance from Karate kata and that the "polarity" thing is secretly connected.

white belt


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## arnisador (Jan 27, 2003)

In fairness, the article itself states that the _heel_ must be raised but not that the entire foot must be lifted. It might be argued that the pictures are exaggerated.

The stance used doesn't look like a crane stance, except superficially--in one case perhaps, but in the other pictures the right foot is half a foot or more behind the body. It doesn't strike me as any particular stance.


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## DKI Girl (Jan 28, 2003)

so then why do alot of boxers succeed in KO's when they have one heel lifted???

Just food for thought.

dki girl


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DKI Girl _
> *so then why do alot of boxers succeed in KO's when they have one heel lifted???
> 
> Just food for thought.
> ...



Based on my discussions with some folks on sparring, its more of an extention/stretch thing.  Gives that extra inch or 2 needed.  I am over simplifying.  They have always mentioned to only lift the heel, not the whole foot due to balance and stability.  

The key here is heel lifted, not foot lifted.

:asian:


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## yilisifu (Jan 28, 2003)

Boxers also raise the rear heel to allow them to get more body "torque" which they need since they tend to strike with the force of the upper body rather than from the soles of the feet.


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## arnisador (Jan 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DKI Girl _
> *so then why do alot of boxers succeed in KO's when they have one heel lifted???*



This is less so on the hook than it is on the cross, isn't it?

I'm really referring to the photos, however, where the foot on the same side as the punching hand is off the ground at roughly knee level--as well as the toes up/toes down theory I have heard Mr. Dillman espouse.

I've gotten a lot of good tuite stuff from the DKI group over the years and I appreciate it and understand its value, but I think this foot-lifting to affect polarity issue is off-track.


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## yilisifu (Jan 29, 2003)

Yes, it looks to me like Dillman has fallen into some sort of "new age" claptrap what with this polarity stuff, colors, and the like.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *Yes, it looks to me like Dillman has fallen into some sort of "new age" claptrap what with this polarity stuff, colors, and the like.
> *




Whats next? A Dillman and Segal get together and they become Lamas and astral project themselves out of danger.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Beam me up Scotty.......

Or maybe the they will acquire skill in the dreaded Haitian art Voodoo? :rofl: :rofl: 


I think "Georgie" needs a reality check........but I guess that's what happens when you start believing your own BS/propaganda.


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## yilisifu (Jan 29, 2003)

Yes, he does!  Maybe he's just looking for new ways to dress up his scam so he can sell more videos and books and stay in the limelight.  I don't think Taika Oyata needs to worry about Geiorgie...George is doing a fine job of destroying his own reputation all by himself.

........so if one strikes the opponent with an uppercut while standing on tippy-toes of one foot and imagining beaming the color of paisley through him....what happens.......?


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## jazkiljok (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *Yes, it looks to me like Dillman has fallen into some sort of "new age" claptrap what with this polarity stuff, colors, and the like.
> *



more like dived in. to the tunes of big dollars flowing from his ever adoring fans. 

teach me how wearing a blue fedora on sunday morning while i touch my the right cheek of my tukus with my left hand to reverse my bio electrical polarity while striking with the last to fingers of my right hand, thumb tip pressing firmly against the life line to channel fresh squeezed chi into the strike, not forgeting to lift my right foot up and touch the back of the left thigh to now transform the reverse polarity to antigravity waves while gurgling a kiai at about five octaves above normal voice pattern to absorb atmospheric ions-- will stop a 300 lb. doped-up mugger from taking my wallet.

only $39.99--- cash and credit cards only.



Jaz K.


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## Ty K. Doe (Jan 29, 2003)

I haven't read all the posts because, quite frankly, there are too many to read.  So I'm sorry if someone has already given the explanation for this phenomenon.

I have actually perfected this technique.  And you can too quite easily.

First it requires rigorous training and nutrition.  The most important exercise is the full sit-up.  At least one to two hundred a day.  This tightens the abdominal muscles.

Next, stand straight up with you hands behind your head, lean slightly forward so that your nose is out in front of your toes, then begin to rhythmically tighten and relax your abs.  Doing this for 15 minutes per day will provide the right conditioning.

Now all you need is a steady diet of chilli, buritos, pizza, beer, and anything greasy.

The diet is the most important part of your training.  Eating those foods one hour before any confrontation will ensure that your technique will be quite accurate.

Just so you don't become alarmed, it is possible that preceding the NTKO, your senses become so in-tune that you begin to hear things.  Anything that sounds like a leaky tire to a low-pitched vibrating boom (slightly wet) is perfectly natural.

If you don't knock everyone out in the room, they'll sure be frightened enough that the room clears out.

This technique has worked for me on several occasions, and was taught to me by a great man who calls himself "The Flatulator."

The technique is called the Fearsom ART, or FART for short.  Also known as the 

F earsom 
A rt of 
R ank 
T echniques.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> * Yes, he does!  Maybe he's just looking for new ways to dress up his scam so he can sell more videos and books and stay in the limelight.  I don't think Taika Oyata needs to worry about Geiorgie...George is doing a fine job of destroying his own reputation all by himself. *



I think Georgies only competition is with say the likes of Harry Potter.I mean they both seem to be trying the same techniques with magic wands and waving of the hands, spells and what not..



> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *........so if one strikes the opponent with an uppercut while standing on tippy-toes of one foot and imagining beaming the color of paisley through him....what happens.......?*



The attacker turns into Richard Simmons


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 29, 2003)

Ok, I had a chance to check out some clips of what were supposed to be 'No Touch' KO's....the funny thing is, there was contact that occured.

How can it be 'no touch' if you touch?

I'm sorry, but if I take that as litteral, then hit neck, theigh, hip, KO doesn't = NTKO.

My uneducated opinion is if it was truely a NTKO, then it would be more like Vader chokin someone across the room.  (Not being a smart *** here).

I have no idea who was doing em, as I saw them at a friends house. 


What is the 'official' definition of a NTKO?


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## arnisador (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *........so if one strikes the opponent with an uppercut while standing on tippy-toes of one foot and imagining beaming the color of paisley through him....what happens.......?*



In fact Mr. Dillman has a theory of colors (being worn by you or by the opponent) as well as of sounds (different sounds for different directions of attack). The polarity works differently for men than women, he states.

Mr. Dillman has lots of good stuff to offer. I wish he'd do more of the old tuite stuff at his seminars and less of the stuff he's been doing more recently.


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## arnisador (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *What is the 'official' definition of a NTKO? *



I have seen several of these performed with absolutely no contact. The hands are held near the other person's face--typically just a couple of inches away but sometimes further (e.g., once both were in seiza). It takes up to a minute, generally.

Of course, I believe it's a parlor trick, not a chi technique.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> Mr. Dillman has lots of good stuff to offer. I wish he'd do more of the old tuite stuff at his seminars and less of the stuff he's been doing more recently. *



He does?
I have yet to see it.
Speaking as someone who has seen and been on the receiving end of good tuite I think Dillman's sucks.

Why? you may ask.....Like I said beofre, many times, his foot work sucks.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *What is the 'official' definition of a NTKO? *



Ummm, "a non-existent "technique" that is perpetrated through the contrivance of a questionable instructor and the assistance of an ignorant and idol-worshipping student?"

How about "a sham method of convincing 'open minded' people that their self-fulfilling desires of the power to affect others without physical contact can be the method by which other people with ethics-free business practices can make their mortgage payments?"

While I am a firm believer in the *reality* of _qi_, _qigong_, and other semi-mystical, metaphysical aspects of martial study (which, I must add as an essential caveat, I believe are possibly theories that deal with many aspects of martial training that simply defy "scientific" explanation and definition, but may well be nothing more than the phenomena associated with razor-sharp refinement of mind/body connection through training, and less the use of "energy fields" directed by the mind like the Force in Star Wars - ultimately I don't question what works...), I *know* for a fact that what people like Mr. Dillman and others of his ilk attempt to market to the slack jawed, empty headed, drooling masses is yet another example of giving the people what they want.  In this case, he is no different than the side-show huckster guessing weights, the rural cornfield charismatic evangelist "healing" the ill, elderly and injured with "the power of God," and other scams that rely on bilking the unsuspecting by playing to their wants...

Things like this cheapen *all* of us, every aspect of martial arts, especially the so-called "internal" styles.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> * I know for a fact that what people like Mr. Dillman and others of his ilk attempt to market to the slack jawed, empty headed, drooling masses is yet another example of giving the people what they want.  In this case, he is no different than the side-show huckster guessing weights, the rural cornfield charismatic evangelist "healing" the ill, elderly and injured with "the power of God," and other scams that rely on bilking the unsuspecting by playing to their wants...
> 
> Things like this cheapen all of us, every aspect of martial arts, especially the so-called "internal" styles.*



My nickname for Dillman is Mr. Haney from Greenacres.
If you recall Mr. Haney was the junk salesman that tried to make people buy his junk off the back of his truck. 
He tried to pass off ordinary worthless trash as things they werent things like saying a certain lampshade was actually Napoleons hat, or a glass doorknob was the Star of Africa Diamond, etc............


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 29, 2003)

If anyone is in the New York area and has some time you may want to check out this event...........sorry there won't be any "No Touch KO's".................

Taika Seiyu Oyata Martial Arts Demonstration and Reception 
Friday, March 21, 2003

6:30  8 pm

Martial Arts Demonstration and Reception

Speaker: Taika Seiyu Oyata, Founder of International Ryu-Te Renmei

To Protect, Not Harm: A Lifetime of Teaching the Ways of Peace

Taika Oyata has been a martial arts practitioner for close to 60 years. From an aristocratic Okinawan family dating back to the 17th century, he learned the indigenous arts used to protect the Shuri kings. He began his training after service in World War II, and since then, Taika Oyata has constantly analyzed the human body and the traditions he inherited. He now has a strong following in the U.S., with students in over 26 U.S. states, Japan, Israel and Poland, and recently began training the U.S. Sky Marshals. He teaches life-protection arts drawn from the history and practice of Okinawan arts, including pressure-point striking and joint locking, the meaning behind the empty-hand kata and use of various traditional weapons. This respected and renowned master will demonstrate his extraordinary art and discuss his belief in and teaching of martial arts as a defensive and protective, rather than destructive and violent, skill. 

Followed by a reception.

Admission: $25

Japan Society members and Ryu-Te Renmei members $20. We can offer a discount to dojos with prepurchase of 10 tickets or more. 

To register, contact Karen Hawkins at (212) 715-1218 or khawkins@japansociety.org

You can also register online at:

http://www.japansociety.org/events/event_detail.cfm?id_event=207677581&id_performance=828046861


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## arnisador (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Speaking as someone who has seen and been on the receiving end of good tuite I think Dillman's sucks.
> *



I've been on the receiving end of his students' techniques and they certainly know things that I don't--things that have effects. The careful positioning of the hands to make locks more effective and the bunkai are unlike what I've seen in studying karate in several other schools--it's good stuff, and eye-opening.

While you may well have seen better, for me it has been extremely educational. I've taken much that's positive from the DKI seminars I've been to and DKI practitioners I've spoken with over the years.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * I've been on the receiving end of his students' techniques and they certainly know things that I don't--things that have effects. *



I have been on the receiving end of his black belt students as well as some of Rick Clarks and their tuite (for lack of a more accurate word) didnt work on me, and I am neither very large or tough. So if it doesnt work on someone like me who is actually standing still letting them do technique I doubt it would work on someone who was out to harm them.




> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * The careful positioning of the hands to make locks more effective and the bunkai are unlike what I've seen in studying karate in several other schools--it's good stuff, and eye-opening. *



In many of his demos I have seen him raise his elbows too high (Yiliquan1 knows what I am talking about here), his foot work leaves him WAY open for a good crack in the face, simple counter....etc..
His set up for "demoing" a technique is always on someone standing fairly still and non aggressivehe should try it with the attacker moving with a bit of speed different story.
Georgie should quite with the color by numbers kyusho & Harry Potter NTKO stuff and get back to basics. Starting from the ground up.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * The careful positioning of the hands to make locks more effective and the bunkai are unlike what I've seen in studying karate in several other schools--it's good stuff, and eye-opening. *




You are not alone. 
There are very few folks around today that can do and really understand that stuff and not just the US but in Japan and Okinawa as well.
I have some footage of my teacher in Okinawa giving a very appreciative Hokama Tetsuhiro 8th?/9th? Dan in Goju Ryu some tips on bunkai/hand & foot postioning/ tuite as well.
Not to be little Mr. Hokamas skill in any way. I think that says a lot for Mr. Hokama's character since most people at his rank have to much pride to get instruction from someone outside their organization. 
There is always more to learn.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *In many of his demos I have seen him raise his elbows too high (Yiliquan1 knows what I am talking about here), his foot work leaves him WAY open for a good crack in the face, simple counter....etc..
> His set up for "demoing" a technique is always on someone standing fairly still and non aggressivehe should try it with the attacker moving with a bit of speed different story.
> Georgie should quite with the color by numbers kyusho & Harry Potter NTKO stuff and get back to basics. Starting from the ground up. *



My first MA encounter with RyuShiKan was quite the eye opener.  RyuShiKan and two of his students and I met to train at the Kamakura Budokan.  We spent several hours training, and I was immediately impressed with the course of instruction.  When RyuShiKan began to show me the self-defense application of the techniques we were working on, I was seriously impressed.  First of all, they began at punch range; _not_ at a distance as is common in many schools.  Measure off one arm's length, plus one fist.  That is all the room you get.  Then he told me to hit him.  For real.  So I tried.  I ended up "sucking floor" (which, I think, is the Okinawan term for what happens when you do something stupid) and in a reasonable amount of blinding pain.

Another time, he showed me the Ryu Te method of vital point striking (in Yiliquan, we call it "spotting").  When he spotted me the first time, I thought the part of my body that he hit was going to explode in pain (*note to self - never again ask what the backfist/knocking fist combo in Naihanchi Shodan is for...  OUCH :uhoh:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 30, 2003)

Yiliquan1, 

When I go back the US and stand in the room with some other people from our same association more often than not I am the low man on the totem pole skill wise. No joke, or modesty intended....just a plain fact. I am not that good compared to others I know and train with.
So if you are really interested looking at floor material you should come back to one of the summer seminars.

Then you can watch me get thrown around like a rag doll.....won't that be fun.


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## D.Cobb (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *If anyone is in the New York area and has some time you may want to check out this event...........sorry there won't be any "No Touch KO's".................
> 
> Taika Seiyu Oyata Martial Arts Demonstration and Reception
> ...




Ahhh Yes! But can he do NO TOUCH KNOCK OUT?

:rofl: :rofl: 

(No disrespect intended)


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## yilisifu (Feb 2, 2003)

I think Master Oyata's response to that question would begin with the arching of the eyebrows, a frown, and then a "Whaaaat?" 

   This is usually a bad sign.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 2, 2003)

Well.I dont know if he does the Georgie version of NTKOs.but I know whatever he did do would happen real fast and you may or may not remembering feeling anything but would most assuredly be waking up on the floor feeling like you had drank too much and have the spins.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *I think Master Oyata's response to that question would begin with the arching of the eyebrows, a frown, and then a "Whaaaat?"
> 
> This is usually a bad sign. *



Pretty much on the money there.

Its usually started with him mumbling something, getting up out of his chair and then walking over to where you are and schooling you in the proper execution of some aspect of a simple techniqueif he does that you are not going to have a good day. 
However, it is those times that I both love and hate the most.
Hate because I would rather have white hot coals stuff up my backside and like because I always learn something good when it happens.........and never forget it.


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## yilisifu (Feb 2, 2003)

I just remember him screwing his face down and saying "Whaaaat?"  and then he would demonstrate the real thing......

   I also remember first, second, and third degree pain.  

   His instruction with the staff, sai, and nunchaku were wonderful and hilarious at the same time.

   And you're right......I've never foirgotten any of it.  Pain has a way of assisting the memory..........


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## chufeng (Feb 2, 2003)

With the proper amount of pain, things become very clear...
The texture of the cement under your feet (well my feet were there a moment ago) comes into SHARP focus...the little pieces of tree debris each stand out in sharp contrast...if you carry it to the next level, though, flashes of light obscure your vision...

:asian:
chufeng


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## GaryM (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> *Arnisador,
> 
> Montaigue is guilty of serious talk about having mystical abilties?  Sheesh!  All I have seen from the guy seems to poo poo this stuff like NTKO.  Can you educate me a bit on this?  I know he has pulled parlor tricks for amusement and later told people the way he did it.  E tu Erle?
> ...


 I haven't been able to find it yet but I think that it is buried in the encyclopedia of DM. Earl gives an example of Qi disruptive techniques . If I remember right ,one is to rapidly wave the LEFT hand (must be the left) from right to left very close to the face of a subject to cause weakness. He said that he could have a man punch him very hard, then perform the Qi disruption and have the man hit him again and the strike would be much weaker. He also mentioned that if the left hand was passed very quickly over the head from rear to front (very close but not touching) it would make the gb12 point more vulnerable. I think that is the point, its the one on the mastoid process just a bit behind the ear lobe.  I'm not going to weigh into the fray with an opinion on the validity of this , but when I read it, it did occure to me that there might be an application of this last one in the five swords technique in Kenpo.  I haven't found the descriptions again (still looking) but he does have a 'scientific' explaination of Qi disruption on page 97 of the extra meridians, points and more volume of the encyclopedia of DM.  FWIW  Gary


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## Matt Stone (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *With the proper amount of pain, things become very clear...
> The texture of the cement under your feet (well my feet were there a moment ago) comes into SHARP focus...the little pieces of tree debris each stand out in sharp contrast...if you carry it to the next level, though, flashes of light obscure your vision...
> 
> ...



Like Saturday's training, Chufeng?  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## white belt (Feb 2, 2003)

Gary M,

Thanks!  I have a copy of E.M.'s Extra Meridians and will check it out.  The disruption of Qi w/o touch thing greatly undermines an otherwise credible man's other offerings.  I'm sure, as Arnisador points out, that G.D. has some practical, useful stuff.  It just doesn't help my interest when seeing NTKO poop being marketed.  I own a TKD school.  If I had any thoughts/considerations of inviting G.D. for a seminar on hidden techs. in Kata/Hyung, I would DROP interest when getting wind of NTKO stuff.  I won't be connected to such hogwash.

white belt


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## GaryM (Feb 2, 2003)

Whitebelt: Found it guy! At least part of it, Check out Gb3 on page 32 and 33 of the main meridians book. Still looking for the other one I referred to.G


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## GaryM (Feb 2, 2003)

Whitebelt : Found it too. Look under set up point for Gb12 on page 51. Gary


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## GaryM (Feb 2, 2003)

Whitebelt , not to defend Earl's claims, but in all fairness He doesn't claim to be able to perform a KO, these are only claimed to be 'set up' points which effect the Qi, but he does claim to be able to produce very definant results in Anyone. G.


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## white belt (Feb 2, 2003)

Gary M,

I read the descriptions and they seem like platforms for mysticism.  The Pressure Point material otherwise, thus far for me, has checked out as "sound", but E.M. should not print conjecture with fact.  It muddies the water.

Good job on your part.  I skimmed through that section not really understanding what he was implying when I first bought these books.  After reading about the "G.D. NTKO" stuff, I now see the E.M. implications clearly.  Again, good job Gary!

white belt

p.s.
D.Cobb!
This substantiates your prior posting about E.M.'s claims.  Thanks for your good memory too!


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## arnisador (Apr 24, 2003)

In the current (May 2003) issue of Budo International, Evan Pantazi is quoted as saying:



> "Yes, [the use of pressure point techniques] even works through...Kevlar vests, motorcycle helmets..."



...and similar protective clothing (he also mentions football helmets, winter jackets, etc.). The context doesn't make it perfectly clear if he really means _through_ them--which is how I took it--or if he means that one can find other exposed targets in such cases.


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## yilisifu (Apr 24, 2003)

This kind of garbage is really getting out of hand.  I think it's time we start writing letters and asking some very pointed questions....and asking for absolute proof of these claims.

Heck, if hookers could learn the one-touch orgasm point, they'd be independently wealthy in a week!


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## chufeng (Apr 24, 2003)

Isn't that in the lower back?
 
chufeng


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## chufeng (Apr 24, 2003)

I'm sorry about my cryptic post...
What I meant to say was...

The points are in the lower back BUT they will only work if the person it is applied against is wearing a football helmet and a raincoat.

The infamous one-touch orgasm point...perfected by Peewee Herman...

chufeng


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## D.Cobb (Apr 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *In the current (May 2003) issue of Budo International, Evan Pantazi is quoted as saying:
> 
> 
> ...



I can't say about bike helmets and the like, but I do know from experience, that the dipped foam vests are no match for pressure point strikes. One in particular that I found to be most effective was the 3/4 twist to the xiphoid process, downwards on a 45 degree angle. 
It was as if the padding wasn't there at all. I have also found strikes to the Liver/ Gallbladder plexus, to be quite effective regardless of what the other person was wearing.
Mind you, I haven't tried it through kevlar.
--Dave


:asian:


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## arnisador (Apr 25, 2003)

I can believe some of this, but football helmets and Kevlar jackets will take some convincing!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 4, 2021)

RyuShiKan said:


> In the Karate Forum (I think?) there was an open invitation to anyone that thinks they have "the right stuff" to do no touch KOs.
> 
> I have yet to see any takers................


You haven’t seen any fakers?! Oh wait, you said takers. Lol!


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