# Bear Hugs



## Chat Noir (Aug 1, 2011)

I thought I'd pose this question to the forum.  You hear a lot about bear hug attacks, but I've never been able to understand - how does a person get into a situation where they're caught in one? Can anyone give an example of how this might come about?  Thank you.

Laura


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## Cyriacus (Aug 1, 2011)

From behind.

Person approaches you from behind > Bear hugs you, either pinning your arms (Rendering most people defenseless) or the ribs (likely cracking them, or just limiting breathing) > Holds that position until you do less resisiting > If the person is trained, Suplex; If not, Throw to the side and proceed.

From the front, it would work the same, albeit there is more risk involved, and a higher chance of resistance.


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## hongkongfooey (Aug 1, 2011)

You are in a crowd and someone distracts you from the front while his partner grabs you from behind. The next thing you know your feet are off the ground and your head is moving towards the pavement. You can find yourself in a bear hug from the front or from the back after grappling with another, it's not that hard to gain that position. The sad part is many martial arts schools teach defenses against attempted bear hugs, not hugs where the attacker is squeezing the life out of you and putting you where he wants you.


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## Thesemindz (Aug 1, 2011)

Bearhugs are common grappling attacks that can occur from a variety of entries. Long range striking, ambushes from behind, weapon attacks, and as defenses against all of those types of engagements. Bearhugs aren't only offensive techniques, many times they occur as a counter to striking techniques. I personally use bearhug attacks at close range to control my opponent and maneuver behind him to set him up for a takedown or finish.

I wrote an article about bearhugs and bearhug defenses for my students that you can find on our blog.

The Bear's Hug

The important things to recognize are that the key objectives of the bearhug are control and repositioning. In that respect, they are just like every other hold. The specific counters to bearhugs relate to the specific aspects of the attack. But basic hold defense still applies. Establish your base. Hold the hold. Strike the opponent. Break the Hold.

Bearhugs may not make much sense on the dojo floor or in the sparring ring, but I've seen them on the street and in the bar. And they can be especially dangerous in a multiple opponent scenario, where one opponent can hold you still while his buddy beats you to death. Bearhugs are no joke, and to truly understand them, you have to train them seriously.


-Rob


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## Carol (Aug 1, 2011)

Grabbing attacks as a whole are rather insidious.  The attacker employs them not to harm the target with the grab, but to take the target someplace they do not want to go...whether that is in to a car, or in to the path of an oncoming strike..


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## ATACX GYM (Aug 1, 2011)

Chat Noir said:


> I thought I'd pose this question to the forum.  You hear a lot about bear hug attacks, but I've never been able to understand - how does a person get into a situation where they're caught in one? Can anyone give an example of how this might come about?  Thank you.
> 
> Laura



Rob aka Thesemindz and everyone else gave an excellent answer...with Cyriacus listing the most dangerous bear hug attack,which is the rear bear hug. But the bear hug comes from the front nearly as often as it comes from the rear,and it comes from every point in a 360 degree circle. It's usually the first attack attempted or you'll find it in the midst of a conflict that either started at close quarters or progressed to close quarters. I oftentimes see the bear hug after a punch is slipped or after two antagonists are striking at each other aggressively while moving toward one another and become entangled.

Also remember that football tackles and wrestling double leg takedowns are simply bear hugs on the legs. The bear hug happens alot.

ATACX GYM KENPO KARATE CAPTURED TWIGS

PT. 1:






PT. 2:






PT. 3:


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## Big Don (Aug 1, 2011)

Bear Hugs are used on big guys like me when the bad guy feels bad and wants to get beaten to a pulp.


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## Chat Noir (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks.  I really didn't realize this was a common attack.  If you're grabbed from behind and the arms are pinned so you can't move them - what's the best way to get out of a bear hug?  I read somewhere that you sink down, turn and then strike (somehow) - but what you can't because your arms are pinned and you're lifted off your feet?

Laura


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## Cyriacus (Aug 2, 2011)

Chat Noir said:


> Thanks.  I really didn't realize this was a common attack.  If you're grabbed from behind and the arms are pinned so you can't move them - what's the best way to get out of a bear hug?  I read somewhere that you sink down, turn and then strike (somehow) - but what you can't because your arms are pinned and you're lifted off your feet?
> 
> Laura


Stomping. I shall say no more, since if you cannot deduce where you are stomping, you likely shouldnt 
Im sure there are other methods, but relying on being able to slide out of a potentially strong trained grasp seems a touch foolhardy to me.


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## Razor (Aug 2, 2011)

One useful movement I have seen is to drop your weight downwards, bringing your head backwards to strike at the nose of your opponent. From there it is easier to slip out from under the arms or perhaps strike with the elbows. I suppose there are many different ways of escaping though, just depends on which art it is!


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## Cyriacus (Aug 2, 2011)

Razor said:


> One useful movement I have seen is to drop your weight downwards, bringing your head backwards to strike at the nose of your opponent. From there it is easier to slip out from under the arms or perhaps strike with the elbows. I suppose there are many different ways of escaping though, just depends on which art it is!


I agree - Its a hard one to train though, really. 
Especially if the Attacker pins your Arms. There are alot of variables, and i dont believe you can really preset one response, due to all the different things the Attacker could do from that point, their height, and whatnot.

But for yours, what if your Opponent is taller than you, or has had their nose broken so many times in brawls, or is doped up or somesuch thing, or just tough, and is angered rather than injured, thusly increasing their aggression, and will to harm you? Slipping out could also be troublesome if your arms are pinned at the biceps. Elbow Strikes would work, if you can enter a position from which to do them.
Ultimately, i personally consider the legs to be the best option, since you dont need to spend time trying to writhe slide or drop into a position to escape or use your arms; Since if there is more than one Attacker, or if the initial Attacker decides to perform a Throw or Suplex, or just plough you down, you wont have time to alter your position.
There is also the risk that if you do use your legs, and cause your attacker to fall, that he will faceplant you into the ground as he falls.

Therefore, i conclude that you need to be able to land on your feet. Even if your falling forward with him still on you. So, preferably Elbows, albeit Kicks are perhaps more likely. Headbutting might work, but its unreliable at best, since its blind striking, in more ways than one.

In summary;
Ultimately, no matter how the bearhug is performed, your legs are free. You may have a single second, or several seconds, to retaliate against your attacker.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 2, 2011)

Yeah but what if you're out for a nice little hike through the Chugach National Forest when all of a sudden a Grizzly Bear jumps you from behind and &#8230;. oh wait...I'm being too literal again aren't I 

Sorry I just could not resist&#8230; I&#8217;ll go now


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## Uchinanchu (Aug 2, 2011)

Bear hug, ya say....well for starters, stay clear of national parks (sorry, couldn't resist). 
 Seriously though, one of my all-time favorite opening moves (against a rear bear hug) is one of the simplest and is in the opening move of every single one of our Goju ryu kata.  You take your right hand (or left, really), make a fist/leopard paw and scoop it up with the other hand, pulling into you, GRIND the back of your attackers locked hand, pushing downward and in.  Of course, you can also apply the shin rake and stomp the arch of his foot as well (they work well together).  You can then do a variety of other things such as sinking down into shikodachi, such as the opening movement in Seiyunchin kata, to slip out and get away.


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## Razor (Aug 2, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> But for yours, what if your Opponent is taller than you, or has had their nose broken so many times in brawls, or is doped up or somesuch thing, or just tough, and is angered rather than injured, thusly increasing their aggression, and will to harm you? Slipping out could also be troublesome if your arms are pinned at the biceps. Elbow Strikes would work, if you can enter a position from which to do them.
> Ultimately, i personally consider the legs to be the best option, since you dont need to spend time trying to writhe slide or drop into a position to escape or use your arms; Since if there is more than one Attacker, or if the initial Attacker decides to perform a Throw or Suplex, or just plough you down, you wont have time to alter your position.
> There is also the risk that if you do use your legs, and cause your attacker to fall, that he will faceplant you into the ground as he falls.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I see. There are a lot of variables though, just one suggestion among many. I like that idea of the legs though, as like you say you can't really have your legs pinned in a bear hug.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 2, 2011)

First, as with many attacks, you need to react very quickly.  Second, all of the things above may work, but some are more difficult than others.  A sudden drop as one raises both arms may work, or may not.  I agree kicks are good.  But I don't like the idea of trying to hit an instep, or even raking the shin.  Go for the kneecap.  It must be in place for an opponent to stand.  If it is forcefully dropped a couple of inches, your attacker cannot stand mechanically, much less due to pain.  He will probably drop you quickly or throw you away, so be prepared.  If he is picking you up and moving your feet around a lot, see if you can reach back and pop his eyeballs out with fingers or thumbs.  Can't see, can't fight.


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## jks9199 (Aug 2, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yeah but what if you're out for a nice little hike through the Chugach National Forest when all of a sudden a Grizzly Bear jumps you from behind and &#8230;. oh wait...I'm being too literal again aren't I
> 
> Sorry I just could not resist&#8230; I&#8217;ll go now



In your case, Xue, the bear would simply be trying to defend all the poor trees!


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## ATACX GYM (Aug 2, 2011)

Chat Noir said:


> Thanks.  I really didn't realize this was a common attack.  If you're grabbed from behind and the arms are pinned so you can't move them - what's the best way to get out of a bear hug?  I read somewhere that you sink down, turn and then strike (somehow) - but what you can't because your arms are pinned and you're lifted off your feet?
> 
> Laura




The bear hug has long been thwarted by wrestlers,so I recommend that you YOUTUBE wrestling methods of escape,add strikes and weapons considerations,and there ya go.For a functional inclusive martial arts approach to escaping bear hugs? Try the videos that I linked you to.Not only do they tell you what to do when you're in a bear hug,my attacker is 6'1" and I'm 5'7". I show you how to prevent yourself from being slammed and what to do when you are slammed. I show you how to counter in a 60 degree circle (for some reason the frontal bear hug counter video didn't load so I'll reshoot that and upload it). I show you what to do when the guy throws you down and mounts you. I'll show you in my upcoming videos what to do when he slams you and starts kicking and stomping...while he's armed. You can use this info as a foundation,a base,and add whatever you deem you need to it.Or you can simply ignore it.Up to you.


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## hongkongfooey (Aug 2, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> First, as with many attacks, you need to react very quickly.  Second, all of the things above may work, but some are more difficult than others.  A sudden drop as one raises both arms may work, or may not.  I agree kicks are good.  But I don't like the idea of trying to hit an instep, or even raking the shin.  Go for the kneecap.  It must be in place for an opponent to stand.  If it is forcefully dropped a couple of inches, your attacker cannot stand mechanically, much less due to pain.  He will probably drop you quickly or throw you away, so be prepared.  If he is picking you up and moving your feet around a lot, see if you can reach back and pop his eyeballs out with fingers or thumbs.  Can't see, can't fight.




  That may work, but if I had someone in a bear hug in training, and they would start sinking, I would let them. I would just change from a bear hug to a choke as they start moving toward the ground. A knee shot hurts, but the knee is not the magical kill spot everyone thinks it is, especially hitting it straight on. If you want to hurt it, you have to hit it from the side. Not easy once your feet are off the ground. Trying to gouge the eye is very difficult when your opponent is in front of you and almost impossible blind, even more so if you attacker has his head buried in your back preparing to toss you. Bear hugs are serious holds, especially with your arms pinned. Rarely does someone grab you in a bear hug and just stand there after wrapping you up. You going somewhere, to the ground, head first into a wall or other object, into the attacker's friend and his awaiting fist or into a vehicle as Carol stated. I do agree that you must act fast.


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## Thesemindz (Aug 2, 2011)

If you want to understand bearhugs, go practice with them. Next time you are doing your karate, have your training partner put you in a bearhug. Have him practice moving you around. Have him practice lifting and turning and dropping you. Have him practice putting on the hold, taking off the hold, rotating with the hold, striking in the hold, and changing levels in the hold. Have him practice a "teddy" bearhug, where his hips are away and he's only holding you in his arms, and have him practice a "grizzly" bearhug where his hips are under his body and he's crushing you in his arms and pressing you into his torso.

Then you practice the basic defenses, base/pin/wrap, from each direction, with each arm configuration. Then practice wedging out of the hold with your arms and stance, and practice striking in the hold with your arms and legs and hands and feet and head, and practice counter grappling with small circle attacks to the fingers, grabs and pinches to the body, and holds to the opponent's limbs. Practice using your stances to establish a strong base, stay mobile, change directions, and move into or behind the opponent's stance. 

Once you've done all of that, practice falling forward, and backward, and over, and into the opponent, both as the attacker and the defender. Practice taking the bearhug to the ground, with grappling and striking. Practice changing positions on the way to the ground so you land on the bottom, or on the top, facing your opponent or taking his back. Practice kicking and punching at long range and moving in with bearhugs to control the opponent's striking. Practice pushing off from bearhugs and returning to the striking range. Practice moving from the bearhug to another grapple, such as a grab, another hold, a lock, a choke or a strangle.

If you want to understand how bearhugs work, grab another karate student, and spend some time working on bearhugs. Start small. Have them grab you from behind. Then they move around for a while while you dummy, then they maintain the hold while you move around for a while. Go from there.

Bearhugs are for real. If you are training for self defense, you need to know how they work, how to use them, and how to defend against them.


-Rob


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## MJS (Aug 2, 2011)

Chat Noir said:


> I thought I'd pose this question to the forum.  You hear a lot about bear hug attacks, but I've never been able to understand - how does a person get into a situation where they're caught in one? Can anyone give an example of how this might come about?  Thank you.
> 
> Laura



From behind...if someone isn't aware of whats going on around them, this is the perfect attack for someone to use.  From the front....the bearhug could be used as the initial move to a clinch/takedown.  



Chat Noir said:


> Thanks.  I really didn't realize this was a common attack.  If you're grabbed from behind and the arms are pinned so you can't move them - what's the best way to get out of a bear hug?  I read somewhere that you sink down, turn and then strike (somehow) - but what you can't because your arms are pinned and you're lifted off your feet?
> 
> Laura



Depending on where they grab you, ie: from behind, above or below the elbow, will determine how much movement you're going to have.  But, all is not lost...lol...you can: stomp the foot, which could also include raking down on the shin as you do the stomp, you can wrap their leg with yours, which will aid in preventing them from lifting/throwing you, you can still execute what I call a scooping kick to the groin, you may be able to reach the groin, as well as a headbutt.

One thing to keep in mind, is they're probably not just going to grab you and stand there.  You'll be pushed forward, pulled back or lifted.  Deal with the initial attack first, then start working on your counters.  When I say initial attack, I'm talking about what I just said...the pushing, pulling or lifting.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 2, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> First, as with many attacks, you need to react very quickly.  Second, all of the things above may work, but some are more difficult than others.  A sudden drop as one raises both arms may work, or may not.  I agree kicks are good.  But I don't like the idea of trying to hit an instep, or even raking the shin.  Go for the kneecap.  It must be in place for an opponent to stand.  If it is forcefully dropped a couple of inches, your attacker cannot stand mechanically, much less due to pain.  He will probably drop you quickly or throw you away, so be prepared.  If he is picking you up and moving your feet around a lot, see if you can reach back and pop his eyeballs out with fingers or thumbs.  Can't see, can't fight.


And if he pins your Arms in the hug, then youll have no choice but to stomp his kneecaps


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## Buka (Aug 2, 2011)

Lots of options. I like the MCMAP defense a lot. Seems to work on guys a lot bigger and stronger than me....as long as I can do it before they crush the life out of me.


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## Chat Noir (Aug 3, 2011)

Cool info, thanks.  FYI, I had no idea wrestlers deal with this pin a lot.  I don't think I've ever seen it except in the movies.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 3, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> And if he pins your Arms in the hug, then youll have no choice but to stomp his kneecaps



If your arms are pinned, that does put you at more disadvantage.  In Hapkido we practice a sudden drop while we expand the arms upward.  Naturally this requires developing the upper arm/shoulder muscles.  We then reach forward pinning the opponent's arms and applying a throw.  From the front, the same, but with a left forward, then right step to allow a hip throw as we step back with the left leg again.  Other techniques mentioned here should not be ignored.  No technique can be expected to work every time with every opponent.  

And yes, I still advocate knee kicks and strikes as effective.  I understand what hongkongfooey is talking about straight on, but even that can be effective.  We are MA after all.  But I assure you displacing the kneecap a couple of inches, up, down, or sideways, is going to get you a release.  No it's not a magical kill, but an effective technique to cause a release.  That frees you do to something else to convince your opponent you really don't want to continue or do it again.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 3, 2011)

Buka said:


> Lots of options. I like the MCMAP defense a lot. Seems to work on guys a lot bigger and stronger than me....as long as I can do it before they crush the life out of me.



That's a variation of an ancient Hapkido defense (we being one of the more ancient arts   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ), for waist grabs from the rear when your arms aren't pinned.  The big problem is when the arms are pinned, and there have been some really good suggestions for defense in this thread.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 3, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> In your case, Xue, the bear would simply be trying to defend all the poor trees!




:xtrmshock: POOR TREES!!!!!! :miffer:

Never....and I mean NEVER trust a tree :mst: :uhyeah:


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## MPC1257 (Aug 3, 2011)

We do bear hug defences in Kun Tao.  

Take a look at the first minute or so if this video to see some of our defences:


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 3, 2011)

MPC1257 said:


> We do bear hug defences in Kun Tao.
> 
> Take a look at the first minute or so if this video to see some of our defences:



I particularly liked the leg bar at 48 seconds.  If you can get that on an opponent, it will be effective.  You just need to practice where you will fall.


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## MJS (Aug 3, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> First, as with many attacks, you need to react very quickly.  Second, all of the things above may work, but some are more difficult than others.  A sudden drop as one raises both arms may work, or may not.  I agree kicks are good.  But I don't like the idea of trying to hit an instep, or even raking the shin.  Go for the kneecap.  It must be in place for an opponent to stand.  If it is forcefully dropped a couple of inches, your attacker cannot stand mechanically, much less due to pain.  He will probably drop you quickly or throw you away, so be prepared.  If he is picking you up and moving your feet around a lot, see if you can reach back and pop his eyeballs out with fingers or thumbs.  Can't see, can't fight.


 


oftheherd1 said:


> If your arms are pinned, that does put you at more disadvantage.  In Hapkido we practice a sudden drop while we expand the arms upward.  Naturally this requires developing the upper arm/shoulder muscles.  We then reach forward pinning the opponent's arms and applying a throw.  From the front, the same, but with a left forward, then right step to allow a hip throw as we step back with the left leg again.  Other techniques mentioned here should not be ignored.  No technique can be expected to work every time with every opponent.
> 
> And yes, I still advocate knee kicks and strikes as effective.  I understand what hongkongfooey is talking about straight on, but even that can be effective.  We are MA after all.  But I assure you displacing the kneecap a couple of inches, up, down, or sideways, is going to get you a release.  No it's not a magical kill, but an effective technique to cause a release.  That frees you do to something else to convince your opponent you really don't want to continue or do it again.



While I agree that a solid kick to the knee is effective, from a bearhug position, I'm having a hard time seeing how one would be able to a) pull this off and b) have it be remotely effective.  I'm not really seeing alot of power being generated here, because of body position.  Now, the stomp and rake....yes, I can see more power being generated in that.


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## MJS (Aug 3, 2011)

MPC1257 said:


> We do bear hug defences in Kun Tao.
> 
> Take a look at the first minute or so if this video to see some of our defences:



Yup, definately some of the best bearhug defenses I've seen.   I miss this stuff.  I gotta get back to the PSDTC.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 3, 2011)

MJS said:


> While I agree that a solid kick to the knee is effective, from a bearhug position, I'm having a hard time seeing how one would be able to a) pull this off and b) have it be remotely effective.  I'm not really seeing alot of power being generated here, because of body position.  Now, the stomp and rake....yes, I can see more power being generated in that.



To me, during a struggle to keep from being thrown around, the kneecap is more likely to be accessible than the instep.  If I can rake the shin, I should be able to kick the kneecap.  Perhaps is has to do with what one trains to do.  And I am not saying a shin rake or instep kick can't be effective, just that I think attacks to the kneecap would be more effective.  Regardless, one needs as many techniques as possible in their arsenal.


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## MJS (Aug 4, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> To me, during a struggle to keep from being thrown around, the kneecap is more likely to be accessible than the instep. If I can rake the shin, I should be able to kick the kneecap. Perhaps is has to do with what one trains to do. And I am not saying a shin rake or instep kick can't be effective, just that I think attacks to the kneecap would be more effective. Regardless, one needs as many techniques as possible in their arsenal.



Yes, I see your point, but I'm talking about generating enough power.  Lets look at this scenario:  rear bearhug from behind.  As it was said earlier, the person grabbing is probably going to be pushing you forward, pulling you back, trying to lift you or take you down to the ground.  Both people are probably going to be very close to each other.  To hit the knee, the leg/foot is going to have to be lifted as if you were going to do a back kick.  Given the closeness of the bodies, will enough power be able to be generated for this kick to have any effect?  

And yes, I agree, the more tools in the box, the better.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 4, 2011)

MJS said:


> Yes, I see your point, but I'm talking about generating enough power.  Lets look at this scenario:  rear bearhug from behind.  As it was said earlier, the person grabbing is probably going to be pushing you forward, pulling you back, trying to lift you or take you down to the ground.  Both people are probably going to be very close to each other.  To hit the knee, the leg/foot is going to have to be lifted as if you were going to do a back kick.  Given the closeness of the bodies, will enough power be able to be generated for this kick to have any effect?
> 
> And yes, I agree, the more tools in the box, the better.


I may be misunderstanding you, so feel free to tell me if your pretty much saying what im saying.

Personally, when i say attacking the kneecap, i dont refer to kicking straight back into it. From practice, ive found that at times a bit to slow. But performing a shortened up downward stomp, preferably above the knees, requires minimal chambering. And the higher you are elevated, the more room you have to add in additional chambering, and therefore power. With the minimal chambering, it would take a couple to be effective. But keeping your legs moving is pertinant, since if your opponent tries to use his mass to take you face down to the ground, you might just be able to flail your legs forward, and force him to try and throw you to the side, or deliberately fall onto his back, or perform a Suplex. A Suplex can be answered in the same way, and to the side, you can exploit his rotation to try and grind his knee a bit. Of course, there is no certainty in any of this. But itd practical.
But that goes for any technique - Relying on performing one strike, and it fixing everything is foolhardy. If one strike DOES work, then good. Very good. But i like to presume that it wont. Hope for the best, expect the worst.
Ive also had success with trying to get my toes onto the ground, and attempting to throw myself backward. Again, tempting a Suplex, or a deliberate fall. But thats only twice. Control samples, at best.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 5, 2011)

No one has given bad advice here as far as I can see.  But I still think the knee is the quickest to attack.  Cyriacus put it well above.  You can use your opponent's grab against him.  He holds you in place providing more chance to strike the knee.  Any strike there will be likely to cause pain and damage.  An attack from the side of the knee cap is most likely to do damage.  But due to the way it moves, a solid strike is likely to cause it to move unnaturally.  

But we all have our preferences in defenses.  The main thing is that whatever we choose, we practice it until we can make it work, and that we have more than one defense in our arsenal.

When I was being taught Hapkido in Korea, I used to see students pick easy techniques for testing.  Those were the ones they practiced over and over again, just for testing.  Foolish in my opinion.  If you are given 7 techniques as a defense, why not learn them all equally well?  Same with bear hug defense.  I have learned some additional techniques in this thread for which I am thankful.  I will add them to my arsenal, and I encourage everyone to do the same.  Don''t get locked in to just one thing.


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## Thesemindz (Aug 5, 2011)

MPC1257 said:


> We do bear hug defences in Kun Tao.
> 
> Take a look at the first minute or so if this video to see some of our defences:



We do the same defense in kenpo only we call it Squatting Sacrifice. I've also seen this defense in some BJJ styles. It can work, but you have to break the hold first. If the hold is still strong you either won't be able to bend down to grab the leg, or your opponent will collapse forward on you and force you to the ground with him on your back. Not a nice place to be.

In order to really understand how these defenses work, you need to practice them against dynamic attacks. Don't start there, start small and static. But build intensity over time. Then you will see which defenses work and how and what the counters to those defenses are. Knowing the counters to the defenses is as important as knowing the defenses. There are several strong counters to this particular defense.


-Rob


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## ATACX GYM (Aug 6, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> We do the same defense in kenpo only we call it Squatting Sacrifice. I've also seen this defense in some BJJ styles. It can work, but you have to break the hold first. If the hold is still strong you either won't be able to bend down to grab the leg, or your opponent will collapse forward on you and force you to the ground with him on your back. Not a nice place to be.
> 
> In order to really understand how these defenses work, you need to practice them against dynamic attacks. Don't start there, start small and static. But build intensity over time. Then you will see which defenses work and how and what the counters to those defenses are. Knowing the counters to the defenses is as important as knowing the defenses. There are several strong counters to this particular defense.
> 
> ...



Well said and I completely concur.


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## MJS (Aug 7, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> I may be misunderstanding you, so feel free to tell me if your pretty much saying what im saying.
> 
> Personally, when i say attacking the kneecap, i dont refer to kicking straight back into it. From practice, ive found that at times a bit to slow. But performing a shortened up downward stomp, preferably above the knees, requires minimal chambering. And the higher you are elevated, the more room you have to add in additional chambering, and therefore power. With the minimal chambering, it would take a couple to be effective. But keeping your legs moving is pertinant, since if your opponent tries to use his mass to take you face down to the ground, you might just be able to flail your legs forward, and force him to try and throw you to the side, or deliberately fall onto his back, or perform a Suplex. A Suplex can be answered in the same way, and to the side, you can exploit his rotation to try and grind his knee a bit. Of course, there is no certainty in any of this. But itd practical.
> But that goes for any technique - Relying on performing one strike, and it fixing everything is foolhardy. If one strike DOES work, then good. Very good. But i like to presume that it wont. Hope for the best, expect the worst.
> Ive also had success with trying to get my toes onto the ground, and attempting to throw myself backward. Again, tempting a Suplex, or a deliberate fall. But thats only twice. Control samples, at best.





oftheherd1 said:


> No one has given bad advice here as far as I can see. But I still think the knee is the quickest to attack. Cyriacus put it well above. You can use your opponent's grab against him. He holds you in place providing more chance to strike the knee. Any strike there will be likely to cause pain and damage. An attack from the side of the knee cap is most likely to do damage. But due to the way it moves, a solid strike is likely to cause it to move unnaturally.
> 
> But we all have our preferences in defenses. The main thing is that whatever we choose, we practice it until we can make it work, and that we have more than one defense in our arsenal.
> 
> When I was being taught Hapkido in Korea, I used to see students pick easy techniques for testing. Those were the ones they practiced over and over again, just for testing. Foolish in my opinion. If you are given 7 techniques as a defense, why not learn them all equally well? Same with bear hug defense. I have learned some additional techniques in this thread for which I am thankful. I will add them to my arsenal, and I encourage everyone to do the same. Don''t get locked in to just one thing.



To answer both of these posts...the knee, IMHO, is a good target. But, I still feel that its best attacked from certain postitions, and I'm not seeing how a rear bearhug is one of those. To answer the question Cyriacus asked me:  First, I never said that I or anyone else should rely on one particular strike.  I also didnt suggest that hitting a particular area would get perfect results.  IMHO, I'm not a big fan of 1 shot/1kill.  Instead, I use a series of shots to get my results. 

As for the kick to the knee....at the moment, I dont have any training partners available to me, so I had to use my wife.   She's 5'3, I'm 5'10.  While I am taller, I disagree with the minimal chambering.  If I'm reading what you're saying, correctly, you still need to chamber you leg higher than the other persons knee.  That said, you're going to be doing more than minimal chambering.  Keep in mind, I'm not trying to totally disable the guy with that knee shot, thus the reason I suggested the shin and instep.  I'm looking for something, quick, simple, yet effective, to allow me to be able to follow up with other things, as I said above.  Additionally, lifting your leg too high, isn't going to help with your balance.  IMO, its easier to pull off a few shots to the instep, rakes to the shin, vs. trying to stomp the knee.

The guy probably isn't going to be standing still, allowing you time to do anything fancy or complex.  As its been said, you're going to be pulled back, pushed forward, lifted, etc.  Again, I'm not against hitting the knee, but to get the most out of it, everyones position will come into play.  

If you both have had luck doing this shot to the knee, in a live setting, meaning, the guy grabbing you isn't standing there like a statue, then thats fine.  Thats a stirke that you should add into your toolbox.   For me, from that position, the knee probably wont be a target that I choose.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 7, 2011)

MJS said:


> To answer both of these posts...the knee, IMHO, is a good target. But, I still feel that its best attacked from certain postitions, and I'm not seeing how a rear bearhug is one of those. To answer the question Cyriacus asked me:  First, I never said that I or anyone else should rely on one particular strike.  I also didnt suggest that hitting a particular area would get perfect results.  IMHO, I'm not a big fan of 1 shot/1kill.  Instead, I use a series of shots to get my results.
> 
> As for the kick to the knee....at the moment, I dont have any training partners available to me, so I had to use my wife.   She's 5'3, I'm 5'10.  While I am taller, I disagree with the minimal chambering.  If I'm reading what you're saying, correctly, you still need to chamber you leg higher than the other persons knee.  That said, you're going to be doing more than minimal chambering.  Keep in mind, I'm not trying to totally disable the guy with that knee shot, thus the reason I suggested the shin and instep.  I'm looking for something, quick, simple, yet effective, to allow me to be able to follow up with other things, as I said above.  Additionally, lifting your leg too high, isn't going to help with your balance.  IMO, its easier to pull off a few shots to the instep, rakes to the shin, vs. trying to stomp the knee.
> 
> ...



Recall that it isnt designed to take his knee out right away - And if you cant pick up to the knee, go for the shin, or the ankle. You arent trying to disable it, youre trying to wear it out.

If a Boxer has a high guard, do you know why his opponent (If well trained) will begin punching his Biceps? Punch the Biceps enough, and theyll become extremely sore, and hard to move.
Its the same logic. Your not disabling the knee, or shin, youre weakening it, so that when you can get a remotely chambered blow in, itll have the potential to be crippling. And losing your balance could be a good thing. If you begin to fall, your opponent will try to take you down. When he does, you can catch the fall with a sortof squat. Then if you have good leg muscles (Which any MA should ) you can stand him back up, and due to the angle, get that one good shot in. Stomping the Instep will work for a moment, but after one or two youd just make him angry.

Theres nothing fancy or complex about what im suggesting, or id be suggesting that you do a frontflip! Just thing: With a frontflip, youd go right up and out of his hold! Yeah! Thatll totally work!

And when he lifts you, is he not putting your heel closer to the afore mentioned knee? And being pushed and pulled can give you linear power in an otherwise barely chambered shot.

It seems to me that we are saying EXACTLY the same things, only coming to different conclusions, and that is why i love this site.
I know that my Logic works, because ive tried it with several Partners of varying Height and Strength.
You know that your Logic works, because youve tried it with your Wife.

And i doubt youd need to actually break his leg (Whichever part of this leg your hitting, anyway) for him to be in pain. Or to let you go, in the hopes of doing something with more immediate results. Or trying to take you down.

Hence why you dont limit your options. Which is likely why neither of us are. Heh


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## MJS (Aug 8, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Recall that it isnt designed to take his knee out right away



Yet this post implies otherwise. And here, you said this, which implies that the knee is the only option. 



> - And if you cant pick up to the knee, go for the shin, or the ankle. You arent trying to disable it, youre trying to wear it out.



Of course, I never said I couldn't lift my leg, I simply said that when I was doing this, were she to start moving, I'd be very off balance. And yes, through out this entire thread, I've suggested targetting the shin or instep. Like I've said, I use a series of shots to get me to my ultimate goal. 1 shot, 1 kill....sure, it could work and it has worked, but when it comes to saving my ***, I'm not willing to gamble like that. 



> If a Boxer has a high guard, do you know why his opponent (If well trained) will begin punching his Biceps? Punch the Biceps enough, and theyll become extremely sore, and hard to move.



Yup, this is nothing new, as this is worked regularly in the FMAs, which I also do.  We saw this as well, in the Kajukenbo Fight Quest show. Prof. Bono was working some gunting strikes off of punches, with Jimmy. Jimmy would punch, and Prof Bono would attack the bicep. 




> Its the same logic. Your not disabling the knee, or shin, youre weakening it, so that when you can get a remotely chambered blow in, itll have the potential to be crippling.



Yes, I addressed this already. 



> And losing your balance could be a good thing. If you begin to fall, your opponent will try to take you down. When he does, you can catch the fall with a sortof squat. Then if you have good leg muscles (Which any MA should ) you can stand him back up, and due to the angle, get that one good shot in.



Sure, that may work, just like any other number of things, may work. OTOH, it may not. 




> Stomping the Instep will work for a moment, but after one or two youd just make him angry.



And hitting the knee wont do this? Punching the guy in the face, could piss him off. Not sure what your point is here? Again, the stomps, pinches, bites, spitting, whatever else you do, is simply to get a reaction. 




> And when he lifts you, is he not putting your heel closer to the afore mentioned knee?



And how much power is going to be generated while you're being lifted? 



> And being pushed and pulled can give you linear power in an otherwise barely chambered shot.



And when you're being pulled or pushed, yes, that could give you the power needed, but that is what you have to deal with first...the inital attack. The initial attack, is dealing with the effect of the grab, then the grab itself. 9 times out of 10, when I've seen people grab someone, the only thing that happens, is the person stands there, while the attacker, does a nice, relaxed grab. Sure, thats fine when first learning, but afterwards, if you're not training this live, well.....



> It seems to me that we are saying EXACTLY the same things, only coming to different conclusions, and that is why i love this site.
> I know that my Logic works, because ive tried it with several Partners of varying Height and Strength.
> You know that your Logic works, because youve tried it with your Wife.
> 
> ...



Likewise, I think we're probably on the same page.  Personally, I loved debating and breaking things down, like this.  The one drawback, is that many times, when reading, its hard to always understand what the other person is saying. We have to read, figure out and hope that we're on the same page, vs. a setting where all of these ideas could be trained, ie: a classroom, seminar, etc.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 8, 2011)

MJS said:


> Yet this post implies otherwise. And here, you said this, which implies that the knee is the only option.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My phrasing in previous posts only sounded that way - This is where typing can be tricky. From my perspective, i wasnt talking about other defences. I was talking about that particular defence, and therefore i was monotopically referring to it. I can see how that would come accross as singemindedly presenting it 

We are, in different wording, addressing the same idealogy:
Multiple strikes will probably be necessary;
Your Opponent could try and take you down, and he may or may not succeed;
People get angry when you hurt them;
Limiting yourself to one response is silly;

As for Power being generated whilst being lifted - I found it to be quite a lot. Its a bit hard to practice without having a muscular 6"3 guy actually lift you up, but it makes it easier to turn your hips out a bit.

And when we practice grabs of any kind, you usually arent told what the grab is going to be, and the other person has the right to take you down, submit you, or strike you if you do not react immediately.

Then of course, theres the possibility weve all forgotten. That the guy grabbing you is a moron, and he doesnt lock his grip properly, or he doesnt grab your arms. Or if he performs the grab from the side.
From the side, fiercely stomping the shins and instep become much, much for immediate. And if his grip is flawed, elbows to the ribs wont be fun, im sure.
Or he might be smart enough to kick the backs of your legs, or knee your hips.
The possibilites, they are endless!

Or of course, he could take you down to the ground. And if you have training in Ground Fighting, effectively cause this to be a self-condemning move.


On another note, i love debating MA. Especially with Practitioners of other Styles. The sheer expanse of perspective offered is intrigueing, and interesting. Ive learnt alot about other Styles i just wouldnt know from this site. I mean, i already studied other Arts before, but the idealogies of Practitioners is a curious thing.
And sometimes, you may change your own opinions, simply by being presented with an alternate perspective you find more agreeable.
For example, i never used to be able to Spar in a front facing stance. Until someone insisted i try it for defensive purposes.
Granted, that wasnt on this site, but the logic applies!


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