# The death of history in CMA



## Xue Sheng (Nov 23, 2007)

For some reason this hit me late last night and I cant stop thinking about it today.

I read a few articles recently that were talking about the death of many styles of CMA. Now before the its ineffective so it deserves to die comments start. The truth is in fact the complete opposite of that combined with the collision of ideas between new China and Old China. Another thing that is dying with these styles is the history and to be honest I am not sure which is worse.

One of the styles being hit hard by style extinction is Bagua. You have some rather old teachers, 70 years old and up, that have no students and the main reason for this is they refuse to change there way of teaching to make it easier or quicker and it is very hard training and it takes time to train and many of the younger people in China today are, like younger people everywhere, more interested in video games and making money than standing in a posture for long periods of time or doing a series of forearm strikes on a tree. 
And although I think  Bagua is pretty impressive to watch it is not as flashy or acrobatic  as the state sanctioned contemporary wushu styles. And that flash is attracting many more people and besides in 4 years you learn a lot and your done so it is relatively quick too. 

Now if this is happening to Bagua it is likely happening to Xingyi times 10. I have talked to people from Beijing (younger than 50) that had no idea what Xingyi was. My concern is also compounded by the fact that I literally let lack of self-confidence scare me out of trying to get an old Xingyi/Bagua guy to train me that last time I was in China. And the next time I go I will not have much if any time to commit to training and the time after that he may no longer be with us. But he at least had students so what he knows will not die with him. Also Taiji is changing in China and there are fewer and fewer real Taiji martial artists in China as well. Many people today are doing Taiji only for health purposes. And the list does go beyond the internal styles as well. I will only give one example here but there are many more, real live fighting long fist is by far out numbered by contemporary Wushu long fist and sadly Shaolin is helping this along these days. But the guys that really know long fist and are true long fist fighters are also quite old and what they know goes with them. I saw 2 in Beijing I can only assume by the interaction they were teacher and student and they were doing some of the most impressive long fist forms I had ever seen done. But there were only 2 of them and the younger of the 2 appeared to be over 70 and his teacher appeared considerably older, my guess, late 80s to early 90s.

This also means that the history that these guys know goes with them. I have had multiple conversations with my sifu about things I have read or seen posted here or on other sites and if it is Taiji and from Hong Kong he tends to know a lot about it. There was a video posted here once that was used to show how bad CMA is Wu Taiji vs. White Crane and I discovered my sifu was at that fight and there is much more to this than anything that has been posted by anyone on any site. There are also a lot of people making claims to secret transmissions and taught styles and in some cases he knows the people making these claims he knows what they learned and he knows what their teacher taught. He has also crossed hands with some of the big names (that are no longer with us) thrown out in Taiji today and knows a whole lot about their history as well and he is only one guy that trained in China many years ago. What about all of these guys that do not have students that are not talking about the past to anyone and when they die all of this goes with them? 

This is a great loss to CMA and sadly I do not think there is much that anyone can do about it. TO make things worse many of these old Chinese martial artists in China lived through the Cultural Revolution and they learned very well that the nail that sticks up gets pounded down and because of this they do not advertise nor talk to strangers, particularly a Western stranger. 

I have no idea why I posted this, I guess I just needed to get this out. I welcome thoughts on this or for that matter ideas as to how to stop some of this. Personally I am considering thinking up a whole lot of questions and sitting down whit my sifu someday with a recorder and just having a conversation, assuming he would allow that.


----------



## xiongnu_lohon (Nov 23, 2007)

I can't see much about the pure internal styles as I don't have a background to comment on them. I do think however that there are plenty of real taijiquan people out there and if someone wants to learn it as a fighting art they can definitely do it if they live in north america. Yes taijiquan has become popular as a health exercise and the health people greatly outnumber those that know and understand the real art. But so what. If you know what you're doing you can find a real taijiquan teacher in north america. 

I think that contemporary wushu is a good thing. The simple reality is that contemporary wushu players are usually much better athletes than the traditional-only stylists. Contemporary wushu does not teach fighting movements but it does teach grace, fluidity, flexibility, body mechanics etc. to a very high degree. If someone had a good background in contemporary wushu they have the best preparation for learning waijia systems. The sport of contemporary wushu will create athletes that will go on to do extremely well in traditional systems should they choose to do so. The biggest problem in cma or probably any ma is lack of foundation on the part of students. Contemporary wushu gives one the ideal foundation upon which to build a career in cma. The inclusion of aerials, butterfly kicks into traditional forms is just fine for demonstartion purposes. In fact it's even better than just doing the traditional form because it looks cool and it prevents people from stealing forms at public demonstrations. 

I really think that traditional wushu will benefit greatly from contemporary wushu because it will get athletes that are perfect students from day one.

As for the internal styles I can't say they will benefit from contemporary wushu but I alsdo don't think they will be hurt either. Some of them have extremely difficult training methods. That's one reason why I've never wanted to learn baguazhang. In my view the pure internal styles are for the elite who already know changquan-type arts anyway. I view the pure internal arts as basically a masters degree in cma and that's not for everyone. And it's not a great place for everyone to start. Could part of the problem be the vast numbers of students in those arts that don't have a good foundation in cma already? It sucks that certain lineages will die out but honestly how many top-level xingyiquan or baguazhang or liu ho pa fa people can there ever really be?

Then again maybe I'm wrong. No disrespect intended.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 23, 2007)

Thanks but we do not agree at all

EDIT:

And maybe I was not clear but how does this stop the loss of Traditional CMA and the history that can go with it?


----------



## East Winds (Nov 23, 2007)

Xue Sheng,

I share your concerns. I'm afraid contemporary state sponsored Wushu has contributed greatly to the demise of Chinese Internal MA's. When I first learned some Liu Ho Pa Fa many years ago, the teacher was very old and had few students. It was an almost unknown art at that time and I think (certainly here in the UK) it is now even rarer. I don't know about the teachers lineage as he spoke very little English, so again I cant really speak for the quality of his form or knowledge. However from what I see on the likes of You Tube masquerading as Liu Ho Pa Fa, he was pretty good. But I think he is now dead and as far as I know he wrote nothing down. 

Our only saving grace now is the written word and film and video to enable us to record these masters "at work". As far as I know there is no footage of the likes of Yang Cheng-fu, but there certainly is of his senior students. I think the whole problem lies with the "quick fix" guys (both teachers and students). My own teacher will not teach anything you are not yet ready to receive. He says "How can I teach you advanced stuff, when you are still not doing some of the basics?". And of course he is correct. People learn the movements of a form and think they have mastered a system!! As my teacher says "Learning the form is only the end of the beginning. Now you will start to learn Taijiquan". A lifetime is not long enough to learn everything my teacher knows. That is why I now only concentrate on one system - Traditional Yang Style Taijiquan. After 19 years I am still a beginner. 

I don't think it is all doom and gloom, but you are correct, we as students must make every effort to learn as much as we can from knowledgeable teachers and not flit from form to form or system to system. Unfortunately we do not always appreciate what our teachers are trying to tell us!!!

Just my two pence worrth

Very best wishes


----------



## grydth (Nov 23, 2007)

This thread produces frustration, a sense of failure and humility in great doses.

Let's assume the basic premises are accurate: that traditional CMA are at risk of extinction, in part due to mass market Wushu and in part due to their inherent difficulty as compared to other arts. Let's further assume that, rather than the simple natural selection process at work, their extinction will leave the MA world - and Chinese Cultural heritage - much the poorer.

The choice initially lies with the lineage bearer in each art. Some may have decided their art has no place, no future in this modern world and that the art should die with him - if so, nothing likely can be done for that art.

East Winds is correct that securing video and pictures would be very wise, if not indispensable, .... but still, all the wisdom and background behind the pictures is being lost. 

After the first step as suggested above, it isn't hard to figure out - in an abstract sense - what else would have to be done.... The masters could be brought to refuge and supported financially....A written source would need to be completed as a companion to the pictorial record, something which would contain the history, core philosophy, essential practices.... at a least. New disciples and assistants must be trained while there is time.( *NOT* to get off onto one of our favorite debates, but where would Cheng Man Ching's style  be today without devotees such as Stuart Olson, Wolf Lowenthal, Jonathan Russell, Tan Gibbs and Ed Young? Dead, thinks I )

I suggest the fatal problem is not what can be done.... but rather that there is nobody to do it.

Here we in MA suffer in comparison to most other disciplines.... if a crumbling mummy, a classic ship wreck or a crashed P-38 fighter is discovered, preservation teams are speedily dispatched. Still other scholars wait in the wings to study and advise. If an obscure species is endangered, governments and interest groups will act against almost all other interests to save the creatures. 

But who, and what, exist to intervene/save/preserve when a martial art faces extinction? Where are our relief forces? No, we are too busy quibbling over trivia and personal slights. We are supposedly a brotherhood, a family? Yet we let our grandfathers wither and die in obscurity. The MA overflow with figures having great rank and position - where is the leadership and greatness now? We have lost track of what is truly important.... The Internet gives us unparelled opportunity to disseminate knowledge.... while the fountains of said knowledge die each day. 

The past is dying because the present is obsessed with itself. Not only in China, but here as well. In letting the past die, we condemn the future to bland sameness and shilling fakers.

At least I know why I posted this. Guilt.


----------



## pete (Nov 23, 2007)

the fault, dear brutus, lies not in our stars
but in our selves, that we are underlings

or 

better to burn out, because rust never sleeps...


we've got the means, motive, and opportunity to save or destroy the arts that we love.  means: money may be tight, but hell, ain't no great depression or oklahoma dust bowl kicking up these days.  if you want it bad enough, save yer pennies. motive: if you are truly motivated, you'll sacrifice time, money, etc. to learn what you can NOW. you'll travel and inconvenience yourself for your just reward.  opportunity: many many great teachers of internal arts, teaching the complete art, and closer than you think... and if you want 'authentic chinese' (whatever that means), its an open country, more capitalistic than US!, and daily flights. 

that is means motive and opportunity ... not always available as a set, but if you act now... operators are standing by.

you can cry in your coffee, blame the stars, rust, or get off yer duff and do it.  

train hard & don't look back.
pete


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 23, 2007)

I feel the need to clarify that this is not only about Taiji; it is about all Traditional Chinese Martial Arts styles. 




grydth said:


> This thread produces frustration, a sense of failure and humility in great doses.
> 
> Let's assume the basic premises are accurate: that traditional CMA are at risk of extinction, in part due to mass market Wushu and in part due to their inherent difficulty as compared to other arts. Let's further assume that, rather than the simple natural selection process at work, their extinction will leave the MA world - and Chinese Cultural heritage - much the poorer.
> 
> ...


 
And you told me I was on your ignore list 

And I would greatly appreciate it if this did not become a debate about Cheng Manching, but if it helps he is part of that history that is vanishing. My sifu meant him (before they both came to the USA) and I did not know that for many years. How many others out there alive today knew these people we read about today?

 The sad part here is that although what you have written makes sense it is likely not to work in China with the older generation I am talking about many of these old guys tend not to advertise so finding them is a problem. They also tend not to talk to or trust strangers. 

But there are some that are known but again will they talk to just anyone, my sifu wont and he is in the US and has been for years. He has told me a lot about the past and as I said there are a lot of people on mainland and I can add, Taiwan and Hong Kong who are not teaching and not talking and in some cases that is their choice but in some cases it is a choice based on tradition. And of course you have some that are talking and are fake and without the voices of the others they can get away with it. There was one brought up on MT recently that claimed Yang Family Lineage but fortunalty the Yang family was aware of it and had said he was lying. But how many are getting away with it, particularly outside of China. (Harder to do inside by the way, if the families or students of the teacher the fake lineage is being claimed of find out, the charlatan can literally get beat up.)   

There are old masters of multiple CMA styles that are not teaching any students and yes in some cases that might be for the best and in others it is a shame. There are also old masters teaching (few) students the real deal and there are those that have changed to make money.

What contemporary wushu is doing being more aesthetically pleasing and easier to learn. 

As to guilt, I have none on this topic, just a lot of concern as well as the sense of being incredibly overwhelmed by the scope of this issue. 

And as a note to a previous post, not grydth

Contemporary Wushu is no more a type of undergraduate program for Traditional Chinese Martial Arts any more than Gymnastics is a training ground for American Boxers

Also to clarify

The point being how many people out there knew, or had dealings with, or know about from their sifu; Yang Shaohou, Sun Lutang, Li Tian Ji, Yin Fu, etc and will never tell anyone leaving the rest of us only to speculate.


----------



## Tames D (Nov 23, 2007)

_*QUOTE:*_
_*"Contemporary Wushu is no more a type of undergraduate program for Traditional Chinese Martial Arts any more than Gymnastics is a training ground for American Boxers."*_


_Agreed._


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Nov 24, 2007)

Its true what Xue Sheng is saying. I spoke to a friend from Bejing who had no idea about any martial arts(except Bruce Lee) nor what Qigong was.
Here in Miami, Fl it is some what sad to think I am one of a handful who practice Qigong, Bagua and Hsing yi. I do agree most younger and even older people do not want to do standing forms(common excuses I get are its boring, it hurts my legs, paying for this?!") Also the internal arts besides Tai chi chuan in my area the least are not really heard of so promoting it can be hard. I can only imagine what it is like where the arts originally developed and compare my western Suburb to it though it hardly seems fair.


----------



## thedan (Nov 24, 2007)

A little background- I am currently looking to change from Kenpo (which I can't do any more) to taiji, and have consequently been looking for a school/instructor in my region (north central WA). A few good "health" schools, a few more terrible ones, but no martial taiji at this time. I have done just enough in the past to know the difference, and to spot some of what is missing. For example, none of the instructors I've talked to have any clue as to internal structuring of their moves. So, lest I (unintentionally) misrepresent myself here, I'm a little familiar but not even close to knowlegable.



grydth said:


> East Winds is correct that securing video and pictures would be very wise, if not indispensable, .... but still, all the wisdom and background behind the pictures is being lost.


So is all the internal structuring and movment that make the art work. I like video. I did a lot of Kenpo from video. I also sought out private instruction, and traveled quite a way to get it. Video alone can't give you the whole thing, and I think this is particularly true with "internal" arts. Definately have to agree with you, sir.

Xue Sheng, I'm not knowlegable enough to comment on your original post regarding the loss of these arts. However, I can comment on history in general. You/we can preserve the things we are exposed to. This includes the arts we study and the history we learn by witnessing or being told by seniors. Don't let the frustration of the greater sense of loss stop us from doing what we can (which is where I think you were taking this).

Don' got too sense, but I can throw peanuts fer ya' ...

Dan C

(btw- hello, Pete)


----------



## pete (Nov 25, 2007)

hello old friend~

correct on all accounts, and as usual your observations are well founded.
1. video is great, i call it my electronic notebook, but can also be a launchpad for confusion and misinformation. the truth is on the inside, and within the stuff thats invisible.  what shows on the outside should not me imitated, for that is just the external, as if you can learn to read by simply watching someone else read a book.

2._Don't let the frustration of the greater sense of loss stop us from doing what we can... _this is the right attitude. there is no loss. these arts, especially tai chi, was never one for the masses or held in common by many, therefore there really isn't anything to lose. it will continue, as it has, to grow and evolve organically through the sincerity of its practitioners.

sorry to hear you can't hook up with a decent teacher... don't know much about washington state, fortunately for me NYC area is as much a goldmine for internal arts as it was a dessert for decent kenpo, but still they ain't exactly in my backyard. gotta travel a bit to get the good stuff, but its worth it.  

keep the faith Dan-the-man!

pete


----------



## Brian King (Nov 26, 2007)

Please pardon my posting in this forum, I do not practice Chinese arts but living around Seattle I have had access to a few very good artists that practice CMA. Based on my rather limited interaction with these martial artists I think that the general fear that there is no interest in CMA history is a perception thing. I had a chance to train with the likes of Tim Cartmell, Mike Martello and Jake Burroughs among others and although my interest into CMA history and lineage is very limited being more an applications kind of guy, these gentlemen displayed incredible amounts of knowledge and experience of all three history, lineage and application skills. I think that these gentlemen are but examples of what is out there and going on. People traveling and learning the CMA and just as important also then traveling and teaching to those that show an interest. My own opinion is that many of the arts will become or all ready are niche martial arts appealing to a limited few but that those few will keep it going. Now to be honest my opinions might be a little jaded and hopeful as I am hoping when China truly opens up that we may see many arts coming out. 

*off topic*
*Dan C. I know of a couple guys that might have info for your area if you want. Send me some contact info if you want. Tim Cartmell is coming up for a seminar this coming weekend that you may be interested in as well. 

Brian King


----------



## grydth (Nov 26, 2007)

I agree there are some great instructors for some of the CMA in the USA..... plenty of hacks out there as well. I read the original thread to refer primarily to a variety of CMA which, in the majority, do not appear to have made it out of China. When the lineage holders for those die, there may be nobody to carry on.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 26, 2007)

Brian said:


> Please pardon my posting in this forum, I do not practice Chinese arts but living around Seattle I have had access to a few very good artists that practice CMA. Based on my rather limited interaction with these martial artists I think that the general fear that there is no interest in CMA history is a perception thing. I had a chance to train with the likes of Tim Cartmell, Mike Martello and Jake Burroughs among others and although my interest into CMA history and lineage is very limited being more an applications kind of guy, these gentlemen displayed incredible amounts of knowledge and experience of all three history, lineage and application skills. I think that these gentlemen are but examples of what is out there and going on. People traveling and learning the CMA and just as important also then traveling and teaching to those that show an interest. My own opinion is that many of the arts will become or all ready are niche martial arts appealing to a limited few but that those few will keep it going. Now to be honest my opinions might be a little jaded and hopeful as I am hoping when China truly opens up that we may see many arts coming out.
> 
> Brian King


 
No problem you are always welcome here :asian:

And you are correct there are some that are very interested in real live fighting CMA styles and the history/Lineage they come from (I am actually reading one of Tim Cartmell books right now), but sadly not enough to save them all. Also the things that some of these old guys know dies with them; My Sifu knows a whole lot about what went on in Hong Kong in CMA from when he was growing up and trained there. Based on what he knows, and he is only 1 guy, the number of people throughout China that may have similar knowledge that will never pass it on means that it is very possible that a lot of what REALLY went on will never be known and left to speculation or to those that are less likely to be interested in the real history and more interested in spreading false claims to make themselves look better or to claim a false lineage and for lack of proper training make up false histories to justify what they are doing. 



grydth said:


> I agree there are some great instructors for some of the CMA in the USA..... plenty of hacks out there as well. I read the original thread to refer primarily to a variety of CMA which, in the majority, do not appear to have made it out of China. When the lineage holders for those die, there may be nobody to carry on.


 
That is certainly a big part of it


----------



## Steel Tiger (Nov 26, 2007)

Brian said:


> Please pardon my posting in this forum, I do not practice Chinese arts but living around Seattle I have had access to a few very good artists that practice CMA. Based on my rather limited interaction with these martial artists *I think that the general fear that there is no interest in CMA history is a perception thing. I had a chance to train with the likes of Tim Cartmell, Mike Martello and Jake Burroughs among others and although my interest into CMA history and lineage is very limited being more an applications kind of guy, these gentlemen displayed incredible amounts of knowledge and experience of all three history, lineage and application skills*. I think that these gentlemen are but examples of what is out there and going on. People traveling and learning the CMA and just as important also then traveling and teaching to those that show an interest. My own opinion is that many of the arts will become or all ready are niche martial arts appealing to a limited few but that those few will keep it going. Now to be honest my opinions might be a little jaded and hopeful as I am hoping when China truly opens up that we may see many arts coming out.


 
I feel Xue's and others pain acutely.  

My own style of bagua suffered a massive severing from its past during the Cultural Revolution.  Remembering that this happened about forty years ago.  This is within the living memory of the older martial artists in China and is a constant reminder of what might happen, and perhaps they don't want to draw attention to themselves.

There is something else I have noticed with the CMAs.  There appears to be a general lack of interest in history in China.  They are very proud of the antiquity of the Chinese arts but not that interested in recording it.  Those books you find about CMA history are usually co-authored by a guy from somewhere else who is the driving force behind the publication.  There is a keen interest in the history of CMAs, its just not in China, and that's a problem.  

You know, I also think a lot of the old guys out there don't think that their own life experiences are as important as the technical information that was passed down to them.  Its like when I talk to my father about things in his youth.  Some of these things are really quite remarkable but, to him, its just his life and something worthy of mention only in passing.

Then there is Modern Wushu.  There is no doubt that it produces excellent gymnasts, but it also expresses all those things that so many people (and I don't mean the practitioners of traditional CMA) find contemptable about CMAs.  You know the sort of things - flowery, wishy-washy forms, ridiculously exaggerated stances, spectacular, but ludicrous acrobatics.  This is what is being pushed by the state, I think as a way to compete with TKD and MMA (thus the more recent addition of Sanda) and as a result it overwhelming the traditional arts.

If you ever have a chance to compare real Long Fist with Wushu Long Fist, or real bagua with Wushu bagua (just a couple of examples) you will see a surprising difference.  Which is better?  Well its horses for courses I guess.

I think what it is coming down to is this: the traditional arts are dying in China but are surviving elsewhere.  There may come a time when to learn a TCMA you will go to America or Australia or Britain, not to China.  The problem with this is that a vast amount of knowledge, and I'm not just talking about technical knowledge, is lost because the custodians have all passed on without being able to teach it to someone else.


----------



## grydth (Nov 26, 2007)

There may be at least an outward lack of interest in history in China because there has been a penalty for asking too many of the wrong questions.

I honestly don't have the deep knowledge base and experience some of you do about Wushu, so I couldn't say I am for or against it as an art. But I can say I am against the Walmartization of the CMA by Wushu.... any time there's a coercive push to give you just one choice _in anything_, it's never in the individual's best interest.

Those flowery moves in Wushu - I read that there was an attempt to make Wushu an Olympic sport for the Beijing games; I also read interest in Wushu was on the decline because of the boring sameness of it all. Perhaps they were trying to spice it up to interest Western media and Olympic officials..... it didn't work.

The Cultural Revolution is sometimes (dis)credited with killing the true Shaolin. I would think the old masters who remember it would be doing everything from covert teaching to the famed secret scrolls to trying to emigrate if they could.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 26, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> I think what it is coming down to is this: the traditional arts are dying in China but are surviving elsewhere. There may come a time when to learn a TCMA you will go to America or Australia or Britain, not to China. The problem with this is that a vast amount of knowledge, and I'm not just talking about technical knowledge, is lost because the custodians have all passed on without being able to teach it to someone else.



I have had pretty much that same exact thought. And although some will be preserved in this way the core could be lost or a least some very important parts.



grydth said:


> There may be at least an outward lack of interest in history in China because there has been a penalty for asking too many of the wrong questions.



Could be right, at least in part. Many are more interested in "Who did you beat up" or "how many did you defeat " and those questions generally go unanswered. Read the Sword Polishers record, Adam Hsu talks about some of the questions he has been asked over the years. 



grydth said:


> I honestly don't have the deep knowledge base and experience some of you do about Wushu, so I couldn't say I am for or against it as an art. But I can say I am against the Walmartization of the CMA by Wushu.... any time there's a coercive push to give you just one choice in anything, it's never in the individual's best interest.
> 
> Those flowery moves in Wushu - I read that there was an attempt to make Wushu an Olympic sport for the Beijing games; I also read interest in Wushu was on the decline because of the boring sameness of it all. Perhaps they were trying to spice it up to interest Western media and Olympic officials..... it didn't work.



I personally do not have a problem with someone that does Wushu per say. Actually I rather enjoy watching a good Wushu practitioner. My problem with it comes in when people see it and perceive it as real Chinese martial arts and not the gymnastic  stage show version of CMA that it truly is. And since it is so flashy and so attractive it draws people in droves to it to train it as compared to real traditional CMA. And with the addition of "sports Sanda" you now can fight too. 

They are also, I believe, pushing the limits of what a human can do now, particularly in China, in Wushu. They are pushing it to rather unhealthy limits and this will come back to haunt TCMA as well.

And I am steeling &#8220;Walmartization of the CMA&#8221;



grydth said:


> The Cultural Revolution is sometimes (dis)credited with killing the true Shaolin. I would think the old masters who remember it would be doing everything from covert teaching to the famed secret scrolls to trying to emigrate if they could.



In some cases they have in others they are old and speak only Chinese and like where they are now and they will not move and many have learned from the cultural revolution it is best not to talk about martial arts because not to long ago that could get you and your family killed. 

And many tend not to write things down for a few reasons, some are not literate, some will not write down things based on tradition, some will not write things down for others to learn form that are not their students or family, some simply do not have time and expect to do it later. Some remember that written words can get you in BIG trouble.

EDIT:

One addition. It is not always easy to leave China for America either if you are looking to never go back to China. It is easier for some other countries but both China and the other contry have to agree that ou can go and they also tell you for how long you can go.


----------



## pstarr (Nov 27, 2007)

Steel Tiger has a very good point.  My own teacher, W. C. Chen, studied under Zhang-Zhaodong, and used to talk about him quite a bit - I still practice and teach the Xingyi and Bagua that he learned and taught although I believe he made a change here and there (nothing major).

But when I was in China many years ago, I could find no decent Bagua or Xingyi practitioners...friends of mine, some of whom have studied these arts extensively both here and in Canada (under both Western and Chinese teachers), have gone to China - in some cases for extended periods - and were unable to find anyone who possessed real skill.

I was told by a Chinese teacher in China that the best martial arts teachers were to be found outside of China...particularly in the West.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 27, 2007)

pstarr said:


> Steel Tiger has a very good point. My own teacher, W. C. Chen, studied under Zhang-Zhaodong, and used to talk about him quite a bit - I still practice and teach the Xingyi and Bagua that he learned and taught although I believe he made a change here and there (nothing major).
> 
> But when I was in China many years ago, I could find no decent Bagua or Xingyi practitioners...friends of mine, some of whom have studied these arts extensively both here and in Canada (under both Western and Chinese teachers), have gone to China - in some cases for extended periods - and were unable to find anyone who possessed real skill.
> 
> I was told by a Chinese teacher in China that the best martial arts teachers were to be found outside of China...particularly in the West.


 
I beleive you may be correct but there is allegedly at least one good Chinese Shanxi Xingyiquan guy in Japan.

Also 

There are still some rather good CMA practitioners and teachers on mainland however there are more that are not and say they are. The problem is the same the good ones do not advertise and are not all that public and the less than skilful have figured out how to use the internet, yell loudly and advertise&#8230; and take advantage of Westerners. Just talking Sanda, there are TONS of Sanda guys in China most all saying they are the best and all the rest are awful but that sends up all sorts of red flags with me when they start trying to tell me how good they are based on how bad everyone else is. 

My Sanda Sifu is in the US and from North China is very good and never says anything bad about any other style of martial arts as a matter of fact he rather like them. All he has ever said about Sanda is that he knows he can defend himself and it is a great way to stay in shape and be healthy, he also said the same thing about Xingyi once too. 

As for taiji in Beijing I saw no good Yang style of the likely thousands I saw doing it in the time I was there. Actually I may have seen 3 old guys that knew what they were doing but I only saw them do the last few postures and then stop to talk and smoke and I was not able to get back there to see them do the whole form.  I alos saw 2 guys doing excellent Chen style (both off by themselves) and one guy doing some rather impressive Northern Wu style (he to was off by himself out of sight, unless you were looking) I also saw one guy doing Sun style, which looked good to me but I know little about Sun Style. I also came across 2 guys between 70 and 90 doing some of the best Changquan I have ever seen. I was also told of a good Tongbei teacher in another park and 3 possible good Chen teachers and there appears to be at least one good Wing Chun teacher (which surprises me in Beijing). They are there and teaching but they do not advertise and there are others all over China, mainly the ones this post is about, that are there rather good and not teaching at all nor passing on the history that they know to anyone either and that is a loss to CMA in my opinion. 

But as far as Xingyiquan (or many other CMA styles) is concerned I would not be surprised to find that there are more good teachers outside of China that inside. I found 1 (he was actually Xingyi/Bagua) and another I thought was good (Xingyi only) but the second I now have my doubts about. The first I have mentioned here before and how I messed that up. The second has videos, which to be honest concerns me, but I saw one recently one that showed a rather big mistake that I do not believe any true Xingyi Sifu would ever make. But I would have never found the first one if it was not for the fact that my mother-in-law is a devout Chinese Buddhist as was this Xingyiquan Teacher. I do not believe he would normally meet with a westerner to discuss Xingyiquan, if for no other reason than he spoke no English, didn&#8217;t care to learn and offered no Mandarin lessons either. Also, as I previously mentioned, many younger Beijingren do not even now what Xingyiquan is so what&#8217;s that tell you. 

Bottom-line, there are a lot of guys there that know their respective styles quite well and know the history that goes with it that are not teaching and never will and to be honest since posting this I do not really believe there is anything anyone can do about it other than try and save their little piece of it. 

My Taiji sifu was telling me one day that Yang Chengfu had a lot of good students, more than just Tung Ying Jie, Fu Zhongwen and Yang Shou Zhong and no one seems to know what happened to any of them and Yang Shaohou had good students as well and no one seems to know what happened to them either. But he does know pretty much were all of Tung Ying Jie's students are, or were, so I guess it is not all lost.


----------



## exile (Nov 27, 2007)

I don't want to crash anyone's party, but what's emerging here is very reminiscent of what has happened over the past decade and a half in Japanese and Korean MAs: the `practical bunkai' movement, which seeks to recover the effective fighting applications of the karate-based arts and the hard, street-oriented training methods that go along with those applications and methods of analysis, did not originate in Japan or Korea, but primarily in Great Britiain, Australia and, latterly, the U.S. I'm not sure how much traction that movement has in Japan or Korea even now. I've heard from people who've been that in Korea, TKD is almost entirely competitive in orientation, and that if you want street-smart TKD training, you're much better off looking in the UK, or in some of the more conservative kwan-lineage descendents in the States. In Asia, it's Competition City with these arts,  with a few honorable exceptions such as Gennosuke Higaki....

There's a parallel here with the CMA situation described in the preceding posts, for sure.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 27, 2007)

exile said:


> I don't want to crash any's party, but what's emerging here is very reminiscent of what has happened over the past decade and a half in Japanese and Korean MAs: the `practical bunkai' movement, which seeks to recover the effective fighting applications of the karate-based arts and the hard, street-oriented training methods that go along with those applications and methods of analysis, did not originate in Japan or Korea, but primarily in Great Britiain, Australia and, latterly, the U.S. I'm not sure how much traction that movement has in Japan or Korea even now. I've heard from people who've been that in Korea, TKD is almost entirely competitive in orientation, and that if you want street-smart TKD training, you're much better off looking in the UK, or in some of the more conservative kwan-lineage descendents in the States. In Asia, it's Competition City with these arts, with a few honorable exceptions such as Gennosuke Higaki....
> 
> There's a parallel here with the CMA situation described in the preceding posts, for sure.


 
Party crasher :miffer: :uhyeah:

This is true but it is my understanding that the people teaching in Japan at least know and are passing on the art (if only in form) and its history.

And are there teachers in Japan that know "practical bunkai" that are just not teaching it to anyone?

What is going on in CMA is that there are those that are highly skilled, highly knowledgeable and not teaching anyone for various reasons form they just plain don't want to through they can't get students that will train because it is too hard and/or not pretty. And the ones that are not so good that are younger and better at self promotion are doing the majority of the teaching and much of it is questionable and they, in some cases, know little or nothing about the real history of the arts they teach. 

And they try and take advantage of everyone elses lack of knowledge of Chinese history to promote what they do and, in my opinion; this is where a lot of the CMA secrets come from. They dont know it so they dont pass it on and say it is "a secret". Or they make something up that no one has seen and say it was a secret transmission. My Sifu has pointed out a couple of these in Yang Taiji recently but he told me and some of his other students, he is not likely to go out and write a book about it. And if he had no students he would have told no one.

TKD, it pains me to admit, I know little about the history of TKD and Korea outside of its interaction with China and Japan. But I do know TKD changed because what I trained many many years ago is somewhat different from what I see today but that was in the pre-Olympic days of TKD


----------



## exile (Nov 27, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> it is my understanding that the people teaching in Japan at least know and are passing on the art (if only in form) and its history....
> 
> What is going on in CMA is that there are those that are highly skilled, highly knowledgeable and not teaching anyone for various reasons form they just plain don't want to through they can't get students that will train because it is too hard and/or not pretty. And the ones that are not so good that are younger and better at self promotion are doing the majority of the teaching and much of it is questionable and they, in some cases, know little or nothing about the real history of the arts they teach.



I think China is in a kind of unique situation, because of the terrible damage that the Cultural Revolution did to Chinese traditional culture generally. There are in all likelihood still people who were permanently traumatized by the horrors of that period. In many of the Communist countries in Asia, martial arts were regarded with extreme hostility and suspicion (China was, I understand, a particularly bad case; Dakin Burdick in one of his articles on the emergence of modern TKD has some interesting, and appalling, observations about how this hostility played out in China).  So the  destruction of the ancient knowledge bases for the CMAs by massive governemental suppression adds a special edge to the problem of wushu replacing the traditional family arts....


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 27, 2007)

exile said:


> I think China is in a kind of unique situation, because of the terrible damage that the Cultural Revolution did to Chinese traditional culture generally. There are in all likelihood still people who were permanently traumatized by the horrors of that period. In many of the Communist countries in Asia, martial arts were regarded with extreme hostility and suspicion (China was, I understand, a particularly bad case; Dakin Burdick in one of his articles on the emergence of modern TKD has some interesting, and appalling, observations about how this hostility played out in China). So the destruction of the ancient knowledge bases for the CMAs by massive governemental suppression adds a special edge to the problem of wushu replacing the traditional family arts....


 
They did kind of get a triple hit in the CMA area all within 70 years 
1) Boxer rebellion
2) Japanese invasion
3) Cultural Revolution


----------



## Steel Tiger (Nov 27, 2007)

exile said:


> I don't want to crash any's party, but what's emerging here is very reminiscent of what has happened over the past decade and a half in Japanese and Korean MAs: the `practical bunkai' movement, which seeks to recover the effective fighting applications of the karate-based arts and the hard, street-oriented training methods that go along with those applications and methods of analysis, did not originate in Japan or Korea, but primarily in Great Britiain, Australia and, latterly, the U.S. I'm not sure how much traction that movement has in Japan or Korea even now. I've heard from people who've been that in Korea, TKD is almost entirely competitive in orientation, and that if you want street-smart TKD training, you're much better off looking in the UK, or in some of the more conservative kwan-lineage descendents in the States. In Asia, it's Competition City with these arts, with a few honorable exceptions such as Gennosuke Higaki....
> 
> There's a parallel here with the CMA situation described in the preceding posts, for sure.


 
There is a genuine similarity between the CMAs and KMAs in this regard.  Technical skills analysis is quite strong, especially in the US and Canada.  There is also a great interest in the huge variation of styles.  But there is also a big difference when it comes to retention of historical knowledge.

Technical analysis along the lines of the 'practical bunkai' movement has been bubbling along in the CMAs for some time.  People like Adam Hsu and Yang Jwing Ming offer very good insights into the application of techniques (I have an excellent book by Dr Yang about qinna applications in Yang taiji, for example).  The problem is, this transmission is not coming from China, and, as a result, some arts and styles will simply die out in their homeland, just like combative TKD in Korea it seems.

But more worrying to me is the death of martial art history in China.  In this I see a big difference between China and Korea.  The TKD powers are determined to manufacture an ancient lineage for their art and this keeps the thought of TKD,at least, history is people's minds.  As a result, people are examining the history.  It is usually to prove one perspective or another is correct, but it is still being examined.  Like it or not, there is a single cohesive driving force keeping things fresh in people's minds.

China does not have that driving force, though it could have, and there are literally hundreds of individual histories.  There is no need or desire in the holders of the knowledge to pass it on.  As I said earlier, there is also the problem of some of these men not understanding that what they know, seemingly everday things, is of value and important.  

China also has an invented history for the martial arts (Da Mo came from India, went to Shaolin, taught the monks, it spread from there) which is supported by the state and with which it seems happy.  Its just part of that wierdness I have encountered with China - a desire for the ancient, but no real desire to know about it.


----------



## pete (Nov 28, 2007)

if you are worried about the state of martial arts history in china, talk to professor kang ge wu (not only a professional historian, but a martial artist).


----------



## grydth (Nov 28, 2007)

pete said:


> if you are worried about the state of martial arts history in china, talk to professor kang ge wu (not only a professional historian, but a martial artist).



You have sources way beyond anything I do..... what can you tell us about this scholar's opinions? Has he written and published anything on this or other MA subjects?

Grateful for anything you can provide.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Nov 28, 2007)

I know most of these discussion has focused on what is happening in China today so I will only interject that some of the knowledgeable teachers may well have migrated to Europe or other places and be teaching in a small scale.  Thoughts on this?


----------



## Steel Tiger (Nov 28, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> I know most of these discussion has focused on what is happening in China today so I will only interject that some of the knowledgeable teachers may well have migrated to Europe or other places and be teaching in a small scale. Thoughts on this?


 
This is what is going to save a lot of secondary or incidental knowledge in the CMAs along with the technical aspects of less well populated arts.

I don't know about you guys, but I am always fascinated by little stories of meetings between, or with, famous people, where someone acquired a piece of equipment, or why they decided to go to a particular place on a particular day.  This is actual history, everyday, ordinary history, and it is valuable for knowing the people who were instrumental in developing our various arts.  This is what is truly being loss at a rate approaching lightspeed.


----------



## pete (Nov 29, 2007)

i still don't feel your pain.  if you've got access to a teacher, who learned the history of the art from his teacher... well there you have it.  if you choose to pass it on to students of your own, the cycle continues.

if you don't have such a teacher, many who do and care about their arts have written books: http://www.plumpub.com/sales/taichi_books.htm

read 'em.

history of martial arts has always been and always will be a rabbit hole, fact mixed with fiction, truth and legend, much like a fish story: you shoulda seen the one that got away.


----------



## grydth (Nov 29, 2007)

pete said:


> i still don't feel your pain.  if you've got access to a teacher, who learned the history of the art from his teacher... well there you have it.  if you choose to pass it on to students of your own, the cycle continues.
> 
> if you don't have such a teacher, many who do and care about their arts have written books: http://www.plumpub.com/sales/taichi_books.htm
> 
> ...



I'm not feeling pain, just disgust.

*THIS* is an appropriate response to a sincere request for information?

Keep your link; one with your attitude has nothing of value to teach.


----------



## Kacey (Nov 29, 2007)

[playnice]Karen Cohn[/playnice]


----------



## pete (Nov 30, 2007)

sorry for the directness, but i remain.  i do not share neither the pain, loss or disgust being conveyed by many in this link.  the arts that i study, and specifically the lineages and associated histories are discussed openly by my teachers and in some cases documented in books authored by them. I know the research that was involved in the publications, and respect the sincerity of these people for what they've done for their arts.

just because chicken-little said the sky was falling, didn't make it true. this thread is founded on INDIVIDUAL's PERSONAL EXPERIENCES AND OPINIONS... NOT FACT!  once they are conveyed as FACT, that's where i will step in and provide MY OPINION, BASED ON MY EXPERIENCES. 

if your opinions are limitted or constrained by your experiences, better to actually DO something about it... OR SUPPORT those that are. hence the link. take it or leave it.  if you want further info on MY experiences and MY readings, PM me and i'll be happy to share. If not, have a nice day.

Just don't believe for a minute that your opinions are universally shared, and that those that disagree are mean and nasty.  I am fortunate to have the quality of instruction provided by my teachers, and we should all be thankful for the depth of historical information available today in ENGLISH. I also recognize the level of committment and effort I've PUT INTO MY training in order to appreciate what I now have.  

Jazz didn't die with Coltrane, Rock and Roll didn't die with Elvis. 
Kenpo didn't die with Parker, Tai Chi won't die with the 4 diamonds...

Keepin' the Faith,
Pete.


----------



## Nebuchadnezzar (Dec 5, 2007)

This thread was started with the topic being about the death of history in Chinese Martial Arts, yet it has only discussed three internal systems (Tai Chi, Xhing Yi and Bagua Chang).

There is no mention of other systems such as Hung Ga, Choy Li Fut, Hak Fu Mun, Foo Jow Pai or Baji Quan.  Does this mean that there is no one here with experience in these systems, that there is no such problem with them or that they aren't considered by those who participate in this thread as Traditional?


----------



## Steel Tiger (Dec 5, 2007)

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> There is no mention of other systems such as Hung Ga, Choy Li Fut, Hak Fu Mun, Foo Jow Pai or Baji Quan. Does this mean that there is no one here with experience in these systems, that there is no such problem with them or that they aren't considered by those who participate in this thread as Traditional?


 
Excellent questions!

I, too, would like to know what is happening with these other systems.  I know that many southern arts have developed strongly outside China and I wonder if this has caused a drain which has left detrimentally effected the representation of those arts in China.

I hope we can get some more input from practitioners of those styles.


----------



## grydth (Dec 5, 2007)

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> This thread was started with the topic being about the death of history in Chinese Martial Arts, yet it has only discussed three internal systems (Tai Chi, Xhing Yi and Bagua Chang).
> 
> There is no mention of other systems such as Hung Ga, Choy Li Fut, Hak Fu Mun, Foo Jow Pai or Baji Quan.  Does this mean that there is no one here with experience in these systems, that there is no such problem with them or that they aren't considered by those who participate in this thread as Traditional?



I have no experience with these systems. Would be interested in anything you can provide, to include whether they are endangered.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 5, 2007)

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> This thread was started with the topic being about the death of history in Chinese Martial Arts, yet it has only discussed three internal systems (Tai Chi, Xhing Yi and Bagua Chang).
> 
> There is no mention of other systems such as Hung Ga, Choy Li Fut, Hak Fu Mun, Foo Jow Pai or Baji Quan. Does this mean that there is no one here with experience in these systems, that there is no such problem with them or that they aren't considered by those who participate in this thread as Traditional?


 
I would love to know more about these systems, but the only Southern System I ever trained was Wing Chun and that was not all that long. I have read a bit about it and I, so far can't find much verifiable history before Yip Man

I started this on Northern internal systems because that is what I train and know more about than any of the Southern Systems you mentioned. Also the original articles that I read that got me started were focusing mainly on INternal styles, mostly Bagua. I do have a book that I have read about Southern Systems but it is only one book and I am not sure how accurate it is.


----------

