# Certification from orgs like Kukkiwon



## Jaeimseu (Jun 17, 2016)

In another thread a poster mentioned preferring a certificate from his instructor and not valuing a cert from a bigger organization like Kukkiwon. It got me thinking about parallels. I've heard this kind of statement before and I understand the "he's the one who actually trained me" line of thinking, but what other areas would this apply? Are people eschewing their high school and university diplomas in favor of a certificate printed up by one of their teachers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 17, 2016)

I think they might, if the diploma was issued by a school half way around the world, that they'd never seen.
Frankly, I value my Moo Duk Kwan certificates, issued by people who actually know me, more than the KKW certs, issued by people who have never even seen me at a distance.
The KKW could probably fix this fairly easily. The reality is that the KKW isn't really doing anything other than recording the promotion. They print out a document with a rubber stamp "signature" and send it to the instructor to hand to the student. So stop.
Print it out, rubber stamp it as "Registered with the KKW" and send it back to the instructor. To SIGN. And hand to the student.
That one difference - signed and issued by MY instructor - makes a world of difference.
And while they're changing things... register the promotion on the day of the test, not the day it's registered. The testing date is on the form. Use it. That is the day. Not the day that some functionary picked it up off their desk and pushed a few buttons.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Jun 17, 2016)

The signature doesn't really bother me. The way I look at it is that my instructor represents Kukkiwon. To me, I like that a body of qualified people back my instructor to issue Kukkiwon certification. As long as each instructor does his job, the system works. Now, of course there are people who take advantage of the system, but that doesn't necessarily mean the whole system is bad. 

My university diplomas weren't personally signed by any of my actual professors. They were stamped with the president's name. And I couldn't pick the president's face out of a lineup. 

I agree about the dates, though I imagine it's an efficiency issue, stamping hundreds of certificates at a time from different gradings in different locations. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 17, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> The signature doesn't really bother me. The way I look at it is that my instructor represents Kukkiwon. To me, I like that a body of qualified people back my instructor to issue Kukkiwon certification. As long as each instructor does his job, the system works. Now, of course there are people who take advantage of the system, but that doesn't necessarily mean the whole system is bad.
> 
> My university diplomas weren't personally signed by any of my actual professors. They were stamped with the president's name. And I couldn't pick the president's face out of a lineup.
> 
> I agree about the dates, though I imagine it's an efficiency issue, stamping hundreds of certificates at a time from different gradings in different locations.



Well... I only went to my HS graduation because my mother insisted. I haven't gone to one since. I could probably dig up the actual pieces of paper the schools issued, but it would take a lot of digging... But awards and recognitions from my peers and instructors? I know right where those are.
Kind of the same attitude, I guess. I care about my practice. I care about the license that allows me to practice. I don't much care about the pieces of paper the universities issued, even if they were mandatory to get the license.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Jun 17, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well... I only went to my HS graduation because my mother insisted. I haven't gone to one since. I could probably dig up the actual pieces of paper the schools issued, but it would take a lot of digging... But awards and recognitions from my peers and instructors? I know right where those are.
> Kind of the same attitude, I guess. I care about my practice. I care about the license that allows me to practice. I don't much care about the pieces of paper the universities issued, even if they were mandatory to get the license.


I don't much care about the physical certificates either, but I'd rather have my certification come from somewhere bigger than one guy. 

I've had both types of tkd certs, but only one of them was accepted when I moved to Korea. It set me back a number of years in rank progression, though admittedly, that's not really all that important to me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 17, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> I don't much care about the physical certificates either, but I'd rather have my certification come from somewhere bigger than one guy.



Personal preference. And the Moo Duk Kwan is a lot more than "one guy", but it is small enough that the person issuing the certificate is actually doing so based on their own personal knowledge.



> I've had both types of tkd certs, but only one of them was accepted when I moved to Korea. It set me back a number of years in rank progression, though admittedly, that's not really all that important to me.



Sure. Because you went somewhere that doesn't recognize anything other than the KKW. If you want to train and progress within the KKW, it's probably a good idea to get KKW certificates.
But, as I said, if you want people to value those certificates over a Kwan certificate, it would be a good idea to have them issued by someone who actually knows the student.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Jun 17, 2016)

I understand where you're coming from, though I think a lot of "value" is coming from how you present things to your students. If your instructor told you that the certificate with his name on it was more meaningful, you likely believe him. Of course, to play devil's advocate, I could easily argue that that instructor thinks it's more meaningful because he gets to keep the money instead of sending it to the bigger org. 

As I understand it, your instructor may not have a choice since I believe you all are part of a Moo Duk Kwan association. But an otherwise independent instructor could issue Kukkiwon certification and also give out a school certificate. I doubt this happens often, though, in schools where there are test fees that the instructor wants to keep in house. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TrueJim (Jun 17, 2016)

I have a Ph.D. in mathematics and I taught college math for a few years. When you have a doctorate, other academic doctors may be _somewhat_ interested in what school you got your degree from, but they're usually *much* more interested in _who_ your thesis advisor was. E.g., "I got my degree from State U." 'Oh really, who did you study under?' "Professor John Doe." 'Oh really!' So generally it's the reputation of your thesis advisor that you're associated with, more than the reputation of your school...but that's only true in academic circles. Once I jumped to working in industry instead, nobody cares who you studied under.

Culturally, the world of taekwondo reminds me in many ways of the world of academia.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 17, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> I understand where you're coming from, though I think a lot of "value" is coming from how you present things to your students. If your instructor told you that the certificate with his name on it was more meaningful, you likely believe him. Of course, to play devil's advocate, I could easily argue that that instructor thinks it's more meaningful because he gets to keep the money instead of sending it to the bigger org.



Who said anything about not sending the KKW the money? I just said change the certificate so it's signed by the actual person who tested you.



> As I understand it, your instructor may not have a choice since I believe you all are part of a Moo Duk Kwan association. But an otherwise independent instructor could issue Kukkiwon certification and also give out a school certificate. I doubt this happens often, though, in schools where there are test fees that the instructor wants to keep in house.



We offer both Moo Duk Kwan and KKW certification, whichever the student prefers.
We're not a commercial school, so the fee argument is fairly irrelevant. There are fees, but they're pretty minimal.


----------



## Blindside (Jun 17, 2016)

I had many high school and college instructors and all represented their institution, it makes sense to get a certificate by their organizations.  I had one main Kenpo instructor and I had one main Kali instructor, the only opinion I care about it is theirs.  Of course I think martial arts organizations are largely bunk anyway.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 17, 2016)

Blindside said:


> I had many high school and college instructors and all represented their institution, it makes sense to get a certificate by their organizations.  I had one main Kenpo instructor and I had one main Kali instructor, the only opinion I care about it is theirs.  Of course I think martial arts organizations are largely bunk anyway.



That's pretty much what I came to say. In college I had probably about 20+ different instructors, hired by the school, each teaching one small part of the curriculum dictated by the school. The individual instructors certified to the school that I had completed the designated portion of the curriculum according to standards and the school presented me with a degree indicating that I had satisfactorily completed the entire curriculum. This makes sense, since none of the individual teachers were in a position to testify that I had done everything necessary for the degree.

In BJJ I was promoted by my instructor who has personally observed and worked with me for years. My black belt certificate is signed by him, his instructor (who at least watched me roll a few times), and a couple of other senior black belts who have known me for years and have rolled with me. Each of those individuals is putting their name and credibility behind the notion that I have the skills and knowledge expected from a BJJ black belt. That means something to me. If I wanted my rank recognized by the IBJJF, I would need to fill out a form, have Carlson Jr. sign it, and send a big check off to the IBJJF (with another check for renewal every year). The IBJJF had nothing to do with my training and knows nothing about me, so such "recognition" would be worthless to me.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Jun 17, 2016)

TrueJim said:


> I have a Ph.D. in mathematics and I taught college math for a few years. When you have a doctorate, other academic doctors may be _somewhat_ interested in what school you got your degree from, but they're usually *much* more interested in _who_ your thesis advisor was. E.g., "I got my degree from State U." 'Oh really, who did you study under?' "Professor John Doe." 'Oh really!' So generally it's the reputation of your thesis advisor that you're associated with, more than the reputation of your school...but that's only true in academic circles. Once I jumped to working in industry instead, nobody cares who you studied under.
> 
> Culturally, the world of taekwondo reminds me in many ways of the world of academia.


I think there are some similarities, too. If I was looking for a school to enroll as a student, I'd also ask about the instructor's instructor. However, I definitely don't consider a 1 Dan to be anything close to a Ph.D. I guess I look at Kukkiwon certification like graduating from an accredited school. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jaeimseu (Jun 17, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's pretty much what I came to say. In college I had probably about 20+ different instructors, hired by the school, each teaching one small part of the curriculum dictated by the school. The individual instructors certified to the school that I had completed the designated portion of the curriculum according to standards and the school presented me with a degree indicating that I had satisfactorily completed the entire curriculum. This makes sense, since none of the individual teachers were in a position to testify that I had done everything necessary for the degree.
> 
> In BJJ I was promoted by my instructor who has personally observed and worked with me for years. My black belt certificate is signed by him, his instructor (who at least watched me roll a few times), and a couple of other senior black belts who have known me for years and have rolled with me. Each of those individuals is putting their name and credibility behind the notion that I have the skills and knowledge expected from a BJJ black belt. That means something to me. If I wanted my rank recognized by the IBJJF, I would need to fill out a form, have Carlson Jr. sign it, and send a big check off to the IBJJF (with another check for renewal every year). The IBJJF had nothing to do with my training and knows nothing about me, so such "recognition" would be worthless to me.


I think in the case of BJJ it might be a bit different, perhaps. It seems like every BJJ add I see stresses the lineage the instructor comes from. I don't think that's nearly as prevalent in Taekwondo. There are so many different branches of tkd and so many "nobodies" running schools that the name on your certificate might not mean anything to someone else. If you never leave your little pond and go somewhere else, it likely won't affect you. But if you go out into the larger community, I think there is some value there. Anyway, regardless of whose signature is on the certificate, it's your instructor who approves and recommends you get it, so to me, that's the best of both worlds. I'm recognized by my instructor and the organization. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jaeimseu (Jun 17, 2016)

I really didn't mean to get stuck on a comparison between education and martial arts. I understand both sides of the certification argument. What I'm really wondering is what other areas in which certification can be received would people rather have recognition only from their teacher and not some kind of governing body. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Jun 17, 2016)

I've posted about this in the past on here, but I'll highlight my own situation for the sake of discussion.  

My KJN is KKW ranked, as he was on the Masters delegation team for the Olympics in '88.  He does not issue KKW certs, as we have never taught the newer formsets, so we really don't practice the KKW curriculum.  However, I have some interest in the KKW certification, for no other reason than my KJN's age.  He won't be around forever, and after he's gone, I would like to have a connection to the larger body of TKD.

It was the hope of my KJN along with 5 other grandmasters here in the states to create a path to preserve the "old curriculum" of TKD, by forming the United States Taekwondo Won back in 1999.  I believe that GM Kyongwon AHN was the senior rank of those 6 grandmaster that formed the USTW.  The initial meetings included KKW representatives, and things looked promising.  

Ultimately, to do political agendas, and power grabs from individual state representatives, the USTW dwindled to where it is now, which is not much.

I feel as if I am stuck in regards to larger orgs, because we don't practice the newer Moo Duk Kwan forms, nor do we practice the newer KKW forms.  So I don't really fit in either larger org as far as curriculums go.

Master Al Cole had given me contacts to the Moo Duk Kwan in Korea, before his passing, and I feel that I have a path of certification in the future after my KJN is no longer with us.  Master Cole also expressed willingness for me to travel to train with him to gain certification through the KKW, but unfortunately he succumbed to cancer before I had that opportunity.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Jun 17, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> In another thread a poster mentioned preferring a certificate from his instructor and not valuing a cert from a bigger organization like Kukkiwon. It got me thinking about parallels. I've heard this kind of statement before and I understand the "he's the one who actually trained me" line of thinking, but what other areas would this apply? Are people eschewing their high school and university diplomas in favor of a certificate printed up by one of their teachers?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The value of the certification to me is not having to pay another $500-1000.  In a perfect world, I wouldn't care about my belt; I would be judged by my technique and taught accordingly.  But since TKD schools are a business, the BB is a high cost and a high cost that I don't want to repeat.  (E.g., my 2nd dan is $450 for the 1st test, and $750 a month or so later for the 2nd test).

So in the reality of today's world, I really only care about the KKW registration part of the black belt certificate.


----------



## Blindside (Jun 17, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The value of the certification to me is not having to pay another $500-1000.  In a perfect world, I wouldn't care about my belt; I would be judged by my technique and taught accordingly.  But since TKD schools are a business, the BB is a high cost and a high cost that I don't want to repeat.  (E.g., my 2nd dan is $450 for the 1st test, and $750 a month or so later for the 2nd test).
> 
> So in the reality of today's world, I really only care about the KKW registration part of the black belt certificate.



You have to pay $1300 for two tests for your second dan?

Man I suck as a salesman....


----------



## Blindside (Jun 17, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> I really didn't mean to get stuck on a comparison between education and martial arts. I understand both sides of the certification argument. What I'm really wondering is what other areas in which certification can be received would people rather have recognition only from their teacher and not some kind of governing body.



I don't think there are many places these days, the old apprentice/journeyman/master path is largely gone from trades these days.  One of the few examples that I can think of is one of my friends who is a professional knifemaker, he is very proud to share that he learned his heat treating methods from one of the best in the business.  He might be certified by some knife makers guild, but I don't think he cares about that.


----------



## WaterGal (Jun 18, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> And while they're changing things... register the promotion on the day of the test, not the day it's registered. The testing date is on the form. Use it. That is the day. Not the day that some functionary picked it up off their desk and pushed a few buttons.



Kukkiwon actually doesn't ask for the testing date anymore - but there shouldn't be more than a 2-week difference, if your instructor is prompt about going on the KKW website and submitting the form to them (it's done electronically now).  They usually approve it pretty quickly, though they may wait a couple weeks after that to actually mail it, and then the international airmail takes another few weeks, so that's why it can take like two months to actually get the cert.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 18, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> Kukkiwon actually doesn't ask for the testing date anymore - but there shouldn't be more than a 2-week difference, if your instructor is prompt about going on the KKW website and submitting the form to them (it's done electronically now).  They usually approve it pretty quickly, though they may wait a couple weeks after that to actually mail it, and then the international airmail takes another few weeks, so that's why it can take like two months to actually get the cert.



It _can_ be done electronically. But it's not always. Perhaps we're still using an old version of the form, but it does ask the date. And in my opinion, it *should*. Because frankly, I don't give a rats behind when it was registered. 
This is a prime example of what I meant in the first place. If the KKW wants people to value their certification over that of the school or kwan, the certificate needs to reflect that. It needs to have the date of the test on it, and it needs to be signed by the person who actually did the test.
The current method basically says "nothing matters except the KKW, your promotion date is when *we* say it is."


----------



## WaterGal (Jun 18, 2016)

Blindside said:


> You have to pay $1300 for two tests for your second dan?
> 
> Man I suck as a salesman....



Yeah, man, I was reading the first bit "my 2nd dan is $450", thinking - hey, that's actually what we charge, what a coincidence.  And then I read that there was another $750!  I don't want to charge that much, but I think I need some sales lessons from Gwai's teacher, hahaha. Maybe they can help me get people to stop complaining so much about the $450 (which includes the KKW fee and a bunch of swag, too, it's not like it's pure profit).


----------



## WaterGal (Jun 18, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> It _can_ be done electronically. But it's not always.



Are you sure?  I could be wrong, but I thought they'd gone 100% to the KMS online system. It's much faster and easier than mailing a stack of paper forms and photos to Korea and someone at KKW trying to read your handwriting and do data entry.



> This is a prime example of what I meant in the first place. If the KKW wants people to value their certification over that of the school or kwan, the certificate needs to reflect that. It needs to have the date of the test on it, and it needs to be signed by the person who actually did the test.
> The current method basically says "nothing matters except the KKW, your promotion date is when *we* say it is."



I think we have very different ideas of what the KKW certification means.  I see it as an official international recognition of the rank you achieved at your school, not as something "above" or "better" than your teacher's recognition.  Basically as something you can take to another school, or to a tournament, and say "yes, this proves I really do have this rank"  (since of course that school or tournament may not know your teacher).

(Also, if I had to guess, I suspect the date issue may be to prevent people from backdating applications.  "Oh yes, I totally tested this person for 1st dan 6 months ago, I just forgot to tell you about it  .  Now they can test again in 6 months.")


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 18, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> Are you sure?  I could be wrong, but I thought they'd gone 100% to the KMS online system. It's much faster and easier than mailing a stack of paper forms and photos to Korea and someone at KKW trying to read your handwriting and do data entry.



I'm pretty sure I know how we do it, yes.
Our KJN is 78 years old, and not much interested in the electronic age.



> I think we have very different ideas of what the KKW certification means.  I see it as an official international recognition of the rank you achieved at your school, not as something "above" or "better" than your teacher's recognition.  Basically as something you can take to another school, or to a tournament, and say "yes, this proves I really do have this rank".



The question was 'why do people value local certificates more than KKW."
If I go to another school, I don't carry my certificates. I assume I'll be judged on my knowledge and ability.
And the tournament-fetish which many TKD schools have developed is, to my way of thinking, a negative. I know people who have stayed in the geup ranks specifically because they clean up in tournaments.



> (Also, if I had to guess, I suspect the date issue may be to prevent people from backdating applications.  "Oh yes, I totally tested this person for 1st dan 6 months ago, I just forgot to tell you about it  .  Now they can test again in 6 months.")



That's just silly. If people want bogus rank, they can get bogus rank. If they want the belt for tournament, then it doesn't matter if they're 1st Dan or 8th.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Jun 19, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> I think I need some sales lessons from Gwai's teacher, hahaha.


I'm really not trying to bring the old BB fee debate again, but as people have pointed out in the past, it all depends on what's included and the other fees.  A couple schools where I have studied have charged black belts much less per month, knowing they get it back on the testing fees (e.g., monthly fees of CAD 120 for lower belts, vs $70-80 for black belts).

My impression is the going rate in my area is about $ 2000/yr for tkd after belt testing.  With black belts doing fewer tests than colour belts, and paying less per month, schools charge more on the BB testing to even things out.

I think it's a good policy to reduce black belt monthly fees.  It not only encourages students to continue after 1st dan.  Of course I don't like the flipside of having higher testing fees to make it up


----------



## marques (Jun 19, 2016)

For safety, have both. It may be useful. Don't need to compare them.
I've been training since '97 and never gave attention to certificates. Now I am much more qualified than most instructors, including some pseudo grandmasters, but have no credentials on paper. So, I cannot teach 'legally', neither follow amateurs... Happily I found were I can simply practice 'my way'. By now...


----------



## Blindside (Jun 19, 2016)

In 8 years of running my group I have never had a person ask to see a piece of paper showing my qualifications.


----------



## Blindside (Jun 19, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> My impression is the going rate in my area is about $ 2000/yr for tkd after belt testing.  With black belts doing fewer tests than colour belts, and paying less per month, schools charge more on the BB testing to even things out.



Again, I apparently suck as a salesman.


----------



## Azulx (Jun 19, 2016)

Blindside said:


> Again, I apparently suck as a salesman



At our school you will spend no more than $500 a year on TKD.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Jun 19, 2016)

Azulx said:


> At our school you will spend no more than $500 a year on TKD.


Do you use a community centre / school with low rental fees, or do you just have lots of students?


----------



## Azulx (Jun 19, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Do you use a community centre / school with low rental fees, or do you just have lots of students?



We use a Recreation Center, so I am assuming that is what you mean by community center. Our school doesn't have to pay rent or bills.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Jun 19, 2016)

Blindside said:


> In 8 years of running my group I have never had a person ask to see a piece of paper showing my qualifications.


When I started again after 20 years as a yellow belt, I was asked if I had my yellow belt certificate  . And when I transferred schools as a black belt, I was asked for the KKW number so that they could confirm.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Jun 19, 2016)

Azulx said:


> We use a Recreation Center, so I am assuming that is what you mean by community center. Our school doesn't have to pay rent or bills.


That makes sense.  With 100 students, at $2000 each, that gives $200,000 for the all bills including assistant instructors and the KJN's "salary". So it doesn't seem unreasonable.  The problem with TKD schools, if you will, is that they only have customers for maybe 30 hours per week.  It's hard to run a business with building expenses which is only open 30 hours per week.


----------



## Azulx (Jun 19, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> That makes sense. With 100 students, at $2000 each, that gives $200,000 for the all bills including assistant instructors and the KJN's "salary". So it doesn't seem unreasonable. The problem with TKD schools, if you will, is that they only have customers for maybe 30 hours per week. It's hard to run a business with building expenses which is only open 30 hours per week.



My Instructor was part of a large North American TKD Association. He always talks about he had had to pay for every little thing, so he went away from them.


----------



## Kinghercules (Jun 20, 2016)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I've posted about this in the past on here, but I'll highlight my own situation for the sake of discussion.
> 
> My KJN is KKW ranked, as he was on the Masters delegation team for the Olympics in '88.  He does not issue KKW certs, as we have never taught the newer formsets, so we really don't practice the KKW curriculum.  However, I have some interest in the KKW certification, for no other reason than my KJN's age.  He won't be around forever, and after he's gone, I would like to have a connection to the larger body of TKD.
> 
> ...



l know Im being bias here but I think your best bet is the Ki Whang Kim Traditional Martial Arts Association (Ki Whang Kim Traditional Martial Arts Association (KWK-TMAA)).  
Ki Whang's name and Albert Cheeks signature still weighs heavy in Korea (if thats what you care about).  I got a lot of respect and recondition when I was over there once I told them who I trained under.  This guy Amos Johnson got his 3rd Dan from Ki Whang and got promoted by the KKW when he went to Korea but didnt even want it.  Danny Jolly got 2nd from Albert Cheeks back in the 80's and when he went to Korea he got 3rd and 4th from KKW and was asked to joined Kuk Sool Won all because he trained under Cheeks.

There aren't many organizations, I dont think, that promote TKD and still do the old school forms.  But Im sure there are some ppl on here that can get you in contact with some of the organizations out there that are still doing the old school forms.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Jun 20, 2016)

Kinghercules said:


> l know Im being bias here but I think your best bet is the Ki Whang Kim Traditional Martial Arts Association (Ki Whang Kim Traditional Martial Arts Association (KWK-TMAA)).
> Ki Whang's name and Albert Cheeks signature still weighs heavy in Korea (if thats what you care about).  I got a lot of respect and recondition when I was over there once I told them who I trained under.  This guy Amos Johnson got his 3rd Dan from Ki Whang and got promoted by the KKW when he went to Korea but didnt even want it.  Danny Jolly got 2nd from Albert Cheeks back in the 80's and when he went to Korea he got 3rd and 4th from KKW and was asked to joined Kuk Sool Won all because he trained under Cheeks.
> 
> There aren't many organizations, I dont think, that promote TKD and still do the old school forms.  But Im sure there are some ppl on here that can get you in contact with some of the organizations out there that are still doing the old school forms.


Kukkiwon offers special testings for situations like this to help people obtain certification if they want it. There are avenues to Kukkiwon certification even if you have certification in another org. 

On a side note, and I hope this doesn't come across as combative, you seem to have a lot of respect for GM Kim Ki Whang, yet you consistently refer to him by his first name, which comes across, to me at least, as extremely disrespectful. Any reason for that? I'm honestly just curious. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WaterGal (Jun 20, 2016)

Azulx said:


> My Instructor was part of a large North American TKD Association. He always talks about he had had to pay for every little thing, so he went away from them.



Well, organization or no, if you're running a full-time commercial school you're _definitely_ paying for every little thing.  Renting commercial space isn't like renting an apartment - the landlord does absolutely nothing for you other than maintaining the exterior of the property (trash pickup, lawn maintenance, etc), and they still hit you up for fees to pay for that.  *grumble grumble*


----------



## Azulx (Jun 20, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> Well, organization or no, if you're running a full-time commercial school you're _definitely_ paying for every little thing. Renting commercial space isn't like renting an apartment - the landlord does absolutely nothing for you other than maintaining the exterior of the property (trash pickup, lawn maintenance, etc), and they still hit you up for fees to pay for that. *grumble grumble*



I understand, if one doesn't want to pay for every little thing , they should join a school in a community center like us. Where we don't charge for every little thing.


----------



## Kinghercules (Jun 20, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> Kukkiwon offers special testings for situations like this to help people obtain certification if they want it. There are avenues to Kukkiwon certification even if you have certification in another org.
> 
> On a side note, and I hope this doesn't come across as combative, you seem to have a lot of respect for GM Kim Ki Whang, yet you consistently refer to him by his first name, which comes across, to me at least, as extremely disrespectful. Any reason for that? I'm honestly just curious.
> 
> ...


He was my teacher. I grew up around him. My dad would take me over his house some Sat and I would watch Kung-fu movies while they would talk. All of us that trained under him refer to him as Ki Whang or Whang Ki when we're taking about him. It's an habit that I got from my senior classmates and I type how I speak.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Jul 24, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> In another thread a poster mentioned preferring a certificate from his instructor and not valuing a cert from a bigger organization like Kukkiwon. It got me thinking about parallels. I've heard this kind of statement before and I understand the "he's the one who actually trained me" line of thinking, but what other areas would this apply? Are people eschewing their high school and university diplomas in favor of a certificate printed up by one of their teachers?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Comparing the KKW to a HS or University degree is an apples and oranges comparison though.  In both HS and college you have many teachers in many widely different subject teaching you towards a specific goal.  The KKW certification on the other hand really only matters if the venue in which you compete, if you compete, requires it. Otherwise, you don't really need it to train in TKD or even teach TKD.  

There is validity, to an extent that having the position that the KKW (or many really large organizations) is really a faceless, rubber stamp organization.  Or that the KKW has inflated numbers and/or lax standards.  And we've had KKW instructors here in the past that have admitted to passing out KKW certificates to practitioners that did not know the KKW training just to inflate membership numbers.  This on top of all the corruption that they've been accused of recently and in the past.  None of that is a bell winner.  Not a KKW-bash, any org can fall into the same category.  And not to say that the KKW (and other orgs) don't have some positives to offer.  But at least with a personal certification you can point to the very person that trained you and they can testify as to the fact they trained you and how they trained you.

In the end, the skills you can demonstrate and/or teach speak louder than any piece of paper.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Jul 24, 2016)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Comparing the KKW to a HS or University degree is an apples and oranges comparison though.  In both HS and college you have many teachers in many widely different subject teaching you towards a specific goal.  The KKW certification on the other hand really only matters if the venue in which you compete, if you compete, requires it. Otherwise, you don't really need it to train in TKD or even teach TKD.
> 
> There is validity, to an extent that having the position that the KKW (or many really large organizations) is really a faceless, rubber stamp organization.  Or that the KKW has inflated numbers and/or lax standards.  And we've had KKW instructors here in the past that have admitted to passing out KKW certificates to practitioners that did not know the KKW training just to inflate membership numbers.  This on top of all the corruption that they've been accused of recently and in the past.  None of that is a bell winner.  Not a KKW-bash, any org can fall into the same category.  And not to say that the KKW (and other orgs) don't have some positives to offer.  But at least with a personal certification you can point to the very person that trained you and they can testify as to the fact they trained you and how they trained you.
> 
> In the end, the skills you can demonstrate and/or teach speak louder than any piece of paper.



I can agree with pretty much everything you said here, though in my personal experience, getting the Kukkiwon cert included the personal certification of my instructor. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 25, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> I can agree with pretty much everything you said here, though in my personal experience, getting the Kukkiwon cert included the personal certification of my instructor.



I think this is probably true of most. But it's too easy to do a google search and find tons of places that will submit your KKW paperwork for you, even though they have never met you. And, as was mentioned, we have had highly ranked KKW practitioners here plainly state that they will issue KKW certs to people who do not practice KKW TKD.


----------

