# EPAK vs. Wu Shen Pai



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 16, 2005)

Score one for EPAK LOL.

As soon as I walked into Bob Jones' studio on Sat. he came out, sticks in hand and immediately got on the phone and dialed 911, told me I was trespassing and told me I should leave immediately, I DIDN'T.    After getting a message from 911 he went to his security keypad and set off the silent alarm to get the security company to respond.    All I could tell him was what a sad little man he'd become.     I simply stood there and did nothing and he calls the cops.   Just figured I'd let people know that I did attempt to settle my differences in person.

DarK LorD


----------



## MisterMike (Jan 16, 2005)

Can you give us some background on your differences with him?


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jan 16, 2005)

Please give us that information. It sounds as if the two of you have a long standing fued and that it might have been better if you had stayed away,
 So where you arrested or removed from the property?


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 16, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Please give us that information. It sounds as if the two of you have a long standing fued and that it might have been better if you had stayed away,
> So where you arrested or removed from the property?


I can't say as it's been a long standing feud, only the last 4 months or so LOL.

In a nutshell, he was promoted to 5th, he thought he should be wearing a much higher rank than he was and decided that he wasn't going to see it anytime soon in our org. . He joined Phillip Porter's org. and flew him in for a seminar to be witness to his new art " American Wu Shen Pai Kenpo", of which he is the founder and ranking person. We had discussed this in previous phone calls and I told him I thought he was wacky for even thinking that, he didn't have the knowledge to create new art or system. Phillip Porter promoted him to 8th degree and founder of Wu Shen Pai. He doesn't wear the 8th for some silly reason, I'm sure it's because he doesn't want to look like too much of an *** for going up 3 ranks of Black in 4 months than 2. What really pisses me off is he's wearing the KENPO rank, the bar and stripes, after I told him at the very least, wear a different belt to signify his new system if that was the way he was gonna go. Oh well, I guess he just couldn't stand me outranking him legitimately by 2 hard earned stripes.

No, no one came to arrest me, I didn't cause too much of a disruption of than the parents wondering why this 7th degree didn't step up instead of calling the cops.  Hell, even Al Farnsworth had the dignity to face me in the same situation without calling the cops, and he did as I asked him very nicely to do, which was to remove his videos from the market, he did within 2 months.    Sadly, I have more respect for Farnsworth than I do Jones now.   What a sad little man.

DarK LorD


----------



## MJS (Jan 16, 2005)

Due to the nature of this topic, it would probably be best to discuss it off the main forum.  PM and Email are 2 options available to our members.

Thanks,

Mike


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 16, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Due to the nature of this topic, it would probably be best to discuss it off the main forum. PM and Email are 2 options available to our members.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mike


Hey, he did ask LOL.   No problem Mike, I'll go private with it.

DarK LorD


----------



## MJS (Jan 16, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Hey, he did ask LOL.   No problem Mike, I'll go private with it.
> 
> DarK LorD



Yeah, I know.  Just trying to prevent a flame.  I'll shoot ya an email.

Mike


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 17, 2005)

Being the biggest mouth in Kenpo does nothing for the art. You're a showboat, regardless of your talent.


This was in my rep box yesterday. To whoever wrote it, why didn't you sign it? Or are you a coward like your instructor?

Yes, I'm a showboat, and I've gotta BIG MOUTH, and I like to talk a lot of smack, but I back it up with actions, I don't call the police. I'm old school, you either back it up or you shut up, and take off the rank you didn't earn with blood, sweat, bruises, and stitches.

DarK LorD


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jan 17, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Hell, even Al Farnsworth had the dignity to face me in the same situation without calling the cops, and he did as I asked him very nicely to do, which was to remove his videos from the market, he did within 2 months. Sadly, I have more respect for Farnsworth than I do Jones now.   What a sad little man.



As a side note here. In case anyone is wondering, I am in no way shape or form related to this guy.    :asian: I don't know him. Never met him. Never heard of him until about 2 years ago after meeting Mr. Conatser.


----------



## MisterMike (Jan 17, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I'm old school, you either back it up or you shut up, and take off the rank you didn't earn with blood, sweat, bruises, and stitches.
> 
> DarK LorD



Not that this guy did not have it coming, but if you're going to chase after every guy with red bars on his belt, you've got a lot of work ahead of ya.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 17, 2005)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Not that this guy did not have it coming, but if you're going to chase after every guy with red bars on his belt, you've got a lot of work ahead of ya.


It fell into my reign of responsibility when I brought him into our org.,  and he betrayed me, hell, I stayed at his house when I was there.   He will get more visits, I can assure you.   Make sure you take note of these posts Mike being as you are his internet liason because he won't speak for himself.   I suppose that new rank gives him neither the time nor inclination to do so.

DarK Lord


----------



## MisterMike (Jan 18, 2005)

Oops, you must have me mistaken. I don't know anything about him. It also seems that we will not be getting any input from the other side of this story so I would like to reccommend the mods close this thread.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 18, 2005)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Oops, you must have me mistaken. I don't know anything about him. It also seems that we will not be getting any input from the other side of this story so I would like to reccommend the mods close this thread.


Mike is Mike Lawrence, one of Bob Jones' students, also a member here.   He reported the thread and probably gave me the neg. rep points (ooooh, that so hurts).

DarK LorD


----------



## Simon Curran (Jan 18, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Being the biggest mouth in Kenpo does nothing for the art. You're a showboat, regardless of your talent.
> 
> 
> This was in my rep box yesterday. To whoever wrote it, why didn't you sign it? Or are you a coward like your instructor?
> ...


Whatever the reasons behind this disagreement, I personally think that the "Put up or shut up" thing is something that is sadly lacking in our modern "civilised" society.
Just my opinion.


----------



## pete (Jan 18, 2005)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> It also seems that we will not be getting any input from the other side of this story so I would like to reccommend the mods close this thread.


i disagree.  it was a holiday weekend... give 'em a chance.  its not like everyone is tapped into this board 24/7.  some seem to be on a drip, LOL, but not most!

from what i've seen, rankings in the AK world are dependant upon which organization you belong to.  some seem to have more requirements, some have less, and others are, well, just different. in addition to technical requirements, i've also seen a description of the responsibilities to be accepted at each black belt level... i forget if this was from Larry Tatum's org. or IKKA??

This forum provides an opportunity for one to describe the unique characteristics that separate wu shen pai kenpo from EPAK, how ranking requirements may differ, and the responsibilities of instructor and master levels. 

pete.


----------



## MJS (Jan 18, 2005)

pete said:
			
		

> i disagree.  it was a holiday weekend... give 'em a chance.  its not like everyone is tapped into this board 24/7.  some seem to be on a drip, LOL, but not most!
> 
> from what i've seen, rankings in the AK world are dependant upon which organization you belong to.  some seem to have more requirements, some have less, and others are, well, just different. in addition to technical requirements, i've also seen a description of the responsibilities to be accepted at each black belt level... i forget if this was from Larry Tatum's org. or IKKA??
> 
> ...



While I agree with you Pete, that this forum gives people the chance to discuss their art, etc. this thread appears to not be taking the route of discussing the differences in Wu Shen Pai compared to EPAK, but instead to discuss the rank that Mr. Jones wears around his waist.

That being said, I highly doubt that anything productive can be gained from that.  We instead, will have a screaming match between the 2 sides involved.

Mike


----------



## Danjo (Jan 18, 2005)

pete said:
			
		

> This forum provides an opportunity for one to describe the unique characteristics that separate wu shen pai kenpo from EPAK, how ranking requirements may differ, and the responsibilities of instructor and master levels.


Apparently in wu shen pai, you rank yourself.


----------



## Rick Wade (Jan 18, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Apparently in wu shen pai, you rank yourself.



If I got to rank myself I would still be wering a white belt.  But I would be one bad *** white belt.


----------



## molson (Jan 18, 2005)

sometimes the truth is painfull, but somebody has to tell it like it is....


----------



## Fastmover (Jan 18, 2005)

Since this is the Ed Parker section lets talk about something he did with this individual. 
It is my understanding that Mr. Parker gave direct instructions  to one of his students to 
go into Bob Jones school and not to leave without his Black 
Belt certificate. Just a bit of history to put all this into perspective.

Im sure Jones saw Clyde walking into his school and remembered this
event. It must be a hell of a thing to have guys coming into your school
to take your Black belt certificate away. Its one thing for Clyde to do it,
but to have the man himself; Ed Parker, want this.......WOW! So even
Parker would police what was out there.

By the way, this name might be more fitting:

Wu Shen 911

Take Care


----------



## bayonet (Jan 19, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Apparently in wu shen pai, you rank yourself.


And apparently I heard the same thing goes on somewhere in Nebraska.


----------



## bayonet (Jan 19, 2005)

I'm old school, you either back it up or you shut up, and take off the rank you didn't earn with blood, sweat, bruises, and stitches.

DarK LorD[/QUOTE]

Right on. I responded to a post and stated that Juan knocked the snot outta me in technique line while visiting Mr. Tatum's school and was told that I got my "*** kicked" by someone else on this forum. Dark Kenpo Lord, you know the deal. Huk is old school as well. There IS NO other way to train.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 19, 2005)

Alright. I'm certainly among the first to say yes...if the guys a weasel, pop 'em. But the posts on this thread are starting to sound like so much schlong-swinging, and not much more than that.

Kenpo is supposed to have with it a general code of honor/conduct, none of which is represented in the spirit of doing things old school. Certainly, the early kenpo upper echelons were full of thugs and tough-guys, but we're supposed to be moving towards a balance between practicality (i.e., combat skills) and sophistication (social conduct as people of honor).

It is *practical *to spank the snot out of some yahoo who is out there misrepresenting; it is even more of an affront to the ego if that person was empowered or positioned to do so based on our actions (Clyde brought the guy in, then the guy used the associations made to front his own cause elsewhere, dissin' Clyde). However, is it *sophisticated* to respond this way? Yes, Parker had some things handled "traditionally", including having people who slighted him escorted from schools.  But just because he did it, does that make it right? Particularly in modern social context?

I hate positively or negatively alter-casting groups, because there are inevitable contradictions. For example...keeping in mind the Japanese war atrocities in the Phillipines and China...

I think the traditional Japanese arts have a leg up on younger American arts like kenpo in the Philosophy & Honor Code department. There are some good points in an Honor Code piece I have. Here are some excerpts for all y'all's consideration:

1.  Never engage in battles with weaker opponents; it diminishes the power of a man, and makes him appear a bully. Engaging weaker opponents is usually done to assuage ones ego. Unless a man possesses an iron mastery over his own ego, he may be motivated to engage in actions not consistent with his more thoughtful commitments.

2.  Fight only honorable battles. This requires that one A) knows what is worth fighting for; B) Understands what is NOT worth fighting for; and C) Has enough mastery over Ego to never fight battles in defense of ones ego.

3. A humble life, dedicated to a great cause, becomes great. Live humbly, in service to the greater good of fellow men. Personal causes/vendettas are not great causes, and diminish the greatness of a man as he pursues them.

4.  Be an example to children. The honorable man takes responsibility for the lives and futures of the children around him. He understands that the example he sets teaches children lessons that will either serve them, or weaken them.

There's more, obviously, but I think the idea is there. A life lived honorably doen't mean one leaves dirty laundry alone. Rather, DO take the dirty laundry out, clean it up, and put it away...just do it discretely.

This guys reactions with Clyde showing up on the doorstep show a couple of things. They show the guy is a coward, and not worthy of being titled a "man". They show he lacks the integrity to put up or shut up (I'm sure he didn't self-demote back to 5th after O'Briandt left town.). They show he is not honorable. And they show he felt some level of responsibility for being / remaining in the wrong with his actions, placing him out of integrity with the fraternal community of kenpo black belts he once belonged to. He has lost rapport with his peers. A real man, having lost that but still valuing it, will do what is necessary to open lines of communication, and get clear with the people questioning his intent, so he can get back in integrity with his peers.  Having done none of this, he ain't a man.  So let him wear the mantle of his shame, and let others move on with the business of providing quality kenpo training to the upcoming generations of tomorrows seniors.

My 4 cents...sorry for the rant.

Dave


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 24, 2005)

Just because I like this thread, I'd also like to see where it goes.


DarK LorD


----------



## bayonet (Jan 25, 2005)

We had a guy instructing out here in Maui that had his 3rd dan certificate signed by SGM Parker. He also sold videos of Mr. Parker and advertised them in Black Belt Magazine. Edmund Parker was here a few weeks ago for his daughter's wedding and apparently he wasn't to thrilled with this certain so called "Grandmaster of Yen Ching Tao". But these types of individuals are everywhere burning people who just don't know any better and think they are getting quality instruction. But anyhow, Edmund is a class act and an unbelieveable artist. The Protecting Fan lithograph is bitchen. Hell they all are cool. Anyway at least Clyde calls it like it is, weather you like it or not.


----------



## Seabrook (Jan 25, 2005)

Since there is no required AK material beyond 5th black, some people get this false notion that they have learned all there is to know in the system. So they move on to things which really do nothing but inflate their ego - like "creating" or "founding" their own system. 

Regardless of your rank and knowledge base, there is more than enough material in EPAK to work on and improve over the course of an entire lifetime.

Jamie Seabrook
http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com/


----------



## GAB (Jan 25, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Just because I like this thread, I'd also like to see where it goes.
> 
> 
> DarK LorD


Hi, It is interesting to note that when persons that have received a Black Belt Certificate are held to a certain level of honor, if they fail to toe the line they need to turn in there Certificate and go down the road they chose.

So what is the big deal you go there and request the certificate and that is that.

Hanshi Bruce give's out the certificates and he is the one who takes them back if necessary, sometimes it happens...

That is part of the job to keep your reputation and your schools honor where it should be.

Depending on your position you could argue both sides and present a good case either way. 

Going public is certainly one way to make sure people hear the story.
Good for you Dark Lord...

Anyone want to say something for the other party????

Regards, Gary


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 25, 2005)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi, It is interesting to note that when persons that have received a Black Belt Certificate are held to a certain level of honor, if they fail to tow the line they need to turn in their Certificate and go down the road they chose.
> 
> So what is the big deal you go there and request the certificate and that is that.
> 
> ...


Sometimes I wonder why I don't talk to you more LOL. As I've said in the past, it's up to us to police our own, to warn the general public of frauds, and in general, to maintain the honor and integrity of our chosen art.

DarK LorD

BTW, you probably won't be hearing anything for the other party, but I'd love to hear what they have to say to substantiate their claims.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 25, 2005)

We work to maintain a legacy, and make it part of our own. There is honor in acting to maintain the integrity of ones own legacy.

D.


----------



## Rob Broad (Jan 26, 2005)

I am from the old way of thinking with you have to be able to stand up for what you represent.  And when you screw up admit it, take your lumps and get on with life.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 15, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I am from the old way of thinking with you have to be able to stand up for what you represent. And when you screw up admit it, take your lumps and get on with life.


Hmmm?


DarK LorD


----------



## Seabrook (Feb 15, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Hmmm?
> 
> 
> DarK LorD


Clyde, 

You get an "A' for detail. Care to elaborate big guy?


Jamie Seabrook


----------

