# Questions about Wushu



## DocWard (Aug 15, 2008)

I have a few questions about Wushu, and I assume that this is the place to get them answered. The reason for my curiosity is that it appears my oldest daughter is interested in taking classes in Wushu back in our home town. I am in Kuwait at the moment, so I can't really discuss things with the instructor directly. I tried to research the art on the board, but sometimes my time is limited, and I had a hard time finding the answers I need.

It does appear that there is a major difference between "traditional" and "modern" Wushu, with the latter being focused on performance and gymnastic/tumbling type moves. Is this accurate? Does or can modern Wushu have any martial applications? My daughter can certainly use the balance and coordination that will come from the training, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if she learned more in the way of self-defense as well.

What should she look for, or look to avoid, in the art to keep herself healthy and relatively injury free? What are the inherent dangers in the art?

What is the consensus opinion of the art?

Thanks in advance.


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## clfsean (Aug 15, 2008)

KarateEsq said:


> I have a few questions about Wushu, and I assume that this is the place to get them answered. The reason for my curiosity is that it appears my oldest daughter is interested in taking classes in Wushu back in our home town. I am in Kuwait at the moment, so I can't really discuss things with the instructor directly. I tried to research the art on the board, but sometimes my time is limited, and I had a hard time finding the answers I need.



Come home safe.



KarateEsq said:


> It does appear that there is a major difference between "traditional" and "modern" Wushu, with the latter being focused on performance and gymnastic/tumbling type moves. Is this accurate? Does or can modern Wushu have any martial applications? My daughter can certainly use the balance and coordination that will come from the training, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if she learned more in the way of self-defense as well.



IMHO yes there's a difference with Modern Wushu (MW) being more overtly performance oriented. People say there's martial applications there, but I don't see it. Coming from a Traditional Wushu (TW) style, everything we do you can see application from day 1. We don't look for aethestics in motion & form. We focus on developing proper body mechanics & power generation for application of the technique. I'm not saying a MW player can't hit hard. I'm saying they don't train with that in mind. If you watch MW performances, you see things like over extended joints, superfluous motion, stringing together of motions (techniques) that make no sense application wise but are highly athletic in nature & aethestic to the eye. TW while it may carry some aesthetic attributes, you can see the direction of the technique & with a developed practitioner, power generated & focus/intent of the technique.



KarateEsq said:


> What should she look for, or look to avoid, in the art to keep herself healthy and relatively injury free? What are the inherent dangers in the art?



To avoid? Watch the stances, their horse stances (again IMHO) are out of proper alignment & structure lending to un-necessary strains & pulls. Same with the punching. Watch the elbows. Inherit dangers though are the same with any MA. It's a contact game. The biggest thing is to listen & practice what she's told how & when. If the coach is good or has TW in their background, these things should be easily compensated for while maintaining the MW appearance.



KarateEsq said:


> What is the consensus opinion of the art?



It produces some of the most incredible atheletes I've seen, but to me, it's gymastics in nifty silks.



KarateEsq said:


> Thanks in advance.



Yep...


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 15, 2008)

Modern wu shu does have martial applicability.  Modern wu shu is traditional wu shu to the extreme.  Stances are lower, kicks are higher, and punches are faster and more "clean".  There are some things that are not practical and are more for performance sake such as a butterfly kick.  Some say wu shu is not a martial art and that it is more for performance sake.  I ask you this though.....If a modern wu shu player can kick really high above thier head then why couldn't this same person kick to the groin level?  People who say that modern wu shu people can't fight are crazy. I know plenty of modern wu shu people who can fight.  I myself do both traditional and modern wu shu. I love both.  If your daughter wants to compete then modern wu shu is what she'll need to win.  Everyone including other styles are incorporating gymnastic type moves into their kata/forms.  Hope this has helped.


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## Kwanjang (Aug 15, 2008)

All I know that traditional chinese martial arts (Wu Shu) is beautiful. Now I am a Tkdist who practices hapkido. How can you look at a master of Wu Shu and not see its effectiveness. Interesting to youtube Jet Li also type "champioship" There is footage of him at 13- most incredable! I understand Jet mainly use the Long Fist system. Does anyone know for sure what system. I think, if he (Jet LI) had to, he could put a severve a---kicking on someone.


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 15, 2008)

Modern wu shu is a mix of forms from alot of different kung fu styles.  For the sake of this post I'm just going to use the term wu shu meaning modern wu shu.  Wu shu has forms from drunken boxing, long fist, southern fist, di tong (ground fighting art), broadsword, whip chain, pu dao, quan do, spear, etc....   All these forms and others make up wu shu.  What seperates wu shu from trad. kung fu is that wu shu uses a lot more acrabatical moves such as butterfly kicks, butterfly twists, aerials, kip ups, jump inside crescent kicks, etc....  If a person can distiguish what is practical and what is not then wu shu can be used for martial combat.  Obviously one would not do a butterfly twist in a real fight BUT one would use a side kick or roundhouse kick and wu shu has those kick as well. On a side note, those who do wu shu are usually in quite good shape due to the endurance level needed to perform these fast paced, high acrabatical form.


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 15, 2008)

clfsean said:


> Come home safe.
> 
> IMHO yes there's a difference with Modern Wushu (MW) being more overtly performance oriented. People say there's martial applications there, but I don't see it. Coming from a Traditional Wushu (TW) style, everything we do you can see application from day 1. We don't look for aethestics in motion & form. We focus on developing proper body mechanics & power generation for application of the technique. I'm not saying a MW player can't hit hard. I'm saying they don't train with that in mind. If you watch MW performances, you see things like over extended joints, superfluous motion, stringing together of motions (techniques) that make no sense application wise but are highly athletic in nature & aethestic to the eye. TW while it may carry some aesthetic attributes, you can see the direction of the technique & with a developed practitioner, power generated & focus/intent of the technique.
> 
> ...


 
How can you not see martial art applicability in wu shu (modern)?  There are plenty of techniques in wu shu that can be used in actual combat (granted there are a lot that can not be used as well). A side kick is a side kick or roundhouse kick is a roundhouse kick weather you do modern or traditional wu shu. The only difference in the two is that the modern wu shu practicioner is a little bit more flexible and does their kicks higher than the traditionalist. And their is some more high risk moves (the high risk move are the ones that you would not use in real lifecombat).


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## clfsean (Aug 15, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> How can you not see martial art applicability in wu shu (modern)?



Easily... ask one to do saam sing. That's basic conditioning for both northern & southern systems.



JadeDragon3 said:


> There are plenty of techniques in wu shu that can be used in actual combat (granted there are a lot that can not be used as well).



I've seen (in person, in China) enough modern to say it's ineffectual. Some of the older routines (that aren't taught anymore) were closer to being effectual in composition & technique than the routines the play now. 

But for grins... please tell me how the technique of "running 20 yards & doing a jump cut the eye kick & landing *** dragging on the ground with a movie style severe look on the face but cool pose" works?



JadeDragon3 said:


> A side kick is a side kick or roundhouse kick is a roundhouse kick weather you do modern or traditional wu shu.



Nope... if it's never used as a kick (i.e. against bags, people, timing drills, conditioning) then it's not a kick. It's a swinging leg with no intent to damage, just look cool or because it was required in the compulsary routine.



JadeDragon3 said:


> The only difference in the two is that the modern wu shu practicioner is a little bit more flexible and does their kicks higher than the traditionalist.



That's great. BFD... can they apply what they know _as it was taught to them? _If they can't, well... 



JadeDragon3 said:


> And their is some more high risk moves (the high risk move are the ones that you would not use in real lifecombat).



I call that gymnastics.


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## clfsean (Aug 15, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> All I know that traditional chinese martial arts (Wu Shu) is beautiful. Now I am a Tkdist who practices hapkido. How can you look at a master of Wu Shu and not see its effectiveness. Interesting to youtube Jet Li also type "champioship" There is footage of him at 13- most incredable! I understand Jet mainly use the Long Fist system. Does anyone know for sure what system. I think, if he (Jet LI) had to, he could put a severve a---kicking on someone.



Pretty easily. Jet Li didn't pick up TCMA until much later in life/career. All the video of his competition work is all Modern wushu. BUT... the compulsaries he performed were the 1st & maybe 2nd generation sets of the modern Chang Quan. The 1st generation was barely toned down from the TCMA root styles (Hong, Pao, Hua, Hua, Zha). The 2nd started getting away from the martial content more based on one of Mao's preceipts "Comrades do not fight each other"... meaning as more people learn it, it needs to be more useless. 

As for his speciality system, Fan Zi Quan. Again... the modern version not the traditional.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 15, 2008)

Traditional Wushu (commonly known as kung fu) is the fighting arts of China, some of which are very old, but all of which are designed to be very effective as a fighting and self defense method.

Modern Wushu was created by the Communist government in China beginning in the 1950s, based on elements taken from traditional wushu.  The purpose of modern wushu was very deliberately meant to be as a Chinese national sport, and performance art, and contains a lot of material that is not effective in a fighting art.  There are a lot of gymnastic type movements, asthetic posturing, and extreme kinds of techiques that look good to an audience and impress a judge in the same way that a gymnastics routine is impressive.  Successful competitors in modern wushu are usually elite athletes, and in this they are very impressive.  

There is no pretending in Modern Wushu to be a fighting art, however.  Yes, on a superficial level, it does look like fighting traditional wushu.  But it is not.  There are crucial differences in how basic techniques and stances and whatnot are done, that are meant to make the movement prettier, but it also often diminishes its effectiveness.  More importantly, the understanding of how the movement would be applied in a real fight is definitely NOT a focus in typical modern wushu training.  Usually, modern wushu champions simply do not understand how they would even apply the movements that they know, even if they could hypothetically be useful.  They have simply memorized and mastered their performance of a fixed athletic routine.

The dangers in modern wushu are that it can lead to injuries.  Sure, this can happen in any martial art.  But I think the injuries that happen in modern wushu are avoidable.  They often push the limits of what the body can do, all in the name of performance.  And inevitably, people get hurt from it.  The way certain things are done simply lead to injury.  When landing from arial techniques and gymnastic moves, they often like to land hard in a dramatic stance.  The problem is, this leads to foot injuries and fallen arches which can plague you in later years.  So some injuries are gradual and you don't realize they are happening until it's too late.  Other injuries are acute and happen because you are simply trying to do something that is too extreme, with the only benefit being to impress an audience and win a medal.  So you can end up with pulled or torn muscles, sprains, twisted ankles, fallen arches, chronic lower back pain, etc.

Modern wushu can be impressive to watch, the competitors are outstanding athletes.  But it is not fighting kung fu, altho I have heard that there is a movement among some people to try and bring the fighting usefulness back into modern wushu.  How successful they have been, I do not know.  But modern wushu, at the international competition level, is still controlled by the Chinese government, and they write and re-write the competition rules as they see fit.  They create the new forms that competitors are expected to learn if they want to be successful at the international level.  And they are the ones who are often pushing the athletes to more and more extreme movements that lead to injuries.  And these people are often old men sitting behind a desk coming up with these ideas out of their imagination.  They can't do it themselves, they won't even try, but they expect the athletes to do them.  Even the premier groups like the Beijing Wushu Team are wrapping their ankles and knees and stuff, because they are chronically injured.  My sifu, who trained with them in the 1980s, said that was not the case back then, and it is disturbing to see it happening now.

So I guess you need to ask yourself, what does your daughter want?  Does she want real self defense skills?  Then do a traditional Chinese martial art that is designed for this and trains appropriately.

Does she want to be a gymnastics competitor with a martial arts flavor, and a willingness to risk injury for the sake of performance?  Then she ought to do modern wushu.

Either method can develop someone into a very strong athlete.  But the end purpose is very different.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 15, 2008)

Lets put it this way

In China 

Traditional Wushu people learned traditional wushu and they could fight

Modern Wushu people also are trained Sanshou so they can fight.

Modern Wushu comes from traditional so it comes from a fighting art. The physicality required to do modern Wushu would most certainly get you into good shape with a high degree of flexibility that could easily transfer to training traditional Wushu. But now a days in China Modern Wushu is pushing the limits of what the human body can do and people are getting hurt.


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## DocWard (Aug 15, 2008)

Thanks for the information, everyone. And I hope not to have created a thread that will lead to ruffled feathers. I believe many of my questions have been answered.

As for my daughter's interests, I think she is interested in it because she sees it as both interesting and something that can be used as an adjunct to her cross-country training. I assume they start slow, but I will definitely have to tell her to take it easy prior to and during cross-country seasons if she sticks with it. I don't believe she is interested in competing or performing in it, but I could always be wrong, and the bug could bite her later.

If it seems that if they aren't doing any contact work (bags, sparring), then could I perhaps work with her on the outside with focus pads and the like? Or is there a dramatic enough difference between Wushu and Kenpo (my background) that it wouldn't be a good idea?

I'm not aware of any TCMA schools in my area, so getting her to one of those isn't likely. Besides, the Wushu is at a center where my youngest daughter goes for dance, causing me to assume it is more performance oriented than self defense oriented. If I had my preference, I would have her and my younger daughter both doing either Kenpo or Ninjutsu. Please don't take that as a slight against the Chinese arts, because it isn't. My background is in Kenpo, and I am interested in taking Ninjutsu, so it would be for practical (and some selfish, admittedly) purposes only.

Thanks again for the info and the well wishes.


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## clfsean (Aug 15, 2008)

What part of Ohio are originally from. There's some top notch TCMA in the area that's only got one function ...


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## Flying Crane (Aug 15, 2008)

KarateEsq said:


> If it seems that if they aren't doing any contact work (bags, sparring), then could I perhaps work with her on the outside with focus pads and the like? Or is there a dramatic enough difference between Wushu and Kenpo (my background) that it wouldn't be a good idea?


 
You could, but I suspect you would actually need to teach her yourself how to do this.  As CLFSEAN pointed out, the intention in how modern wushu people throw punches and kicks is different.  They don't train with contact, so they don't understand how to do it properly.  They just throw the leg up without real kicking intent.  So she may develop flexibility and whatnot, but in terms of actually learning to use the kicks and striking for real, you might need to teacher her how to do it.


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## DocWard (Aug 15, 2008)

clfsean said:


> What part of Ohio are originally from. There's some top notch TCMA in the area that's only got one function ...



About half an hour from Dayton. The thing is, if it were just her interested in a martial art, then it wouldn't be such a problem. But with cross-country for her, dance for my younger daughter, guitar lessons for both daughters, wife training because she rides horses competitively, me getting back and taking guitar back up, as well as a martial art (I hope), among other things, time to drive any distance for a lesson might be at a definite premium!


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 15, 2008)

clfsean said:


> Easily... ask one to do saam sing. That's basic conditioning for both northern & southern systems.
> 
> I've seen (in person, in China) enough modern to say it's ineffectual. Some of the older routines (that aren't taught anymore) were closer to being effectual in composition & technique than the routines the play now.
> 
> ...


 
Well first off if you break down a compulsary form technique by technique you can use a lot of them in a fight but put a string of them together and probably not.  As for your question "can they apply the techniques",  I'd say that depends on weather thier sifu taught that to them.  Bye the way, a lot of wu shu athletes do trad kung fu as well and know how to apply the techniques.  I know several wu shu people that are awesome fighters as well. My Sifu did wu shu and is known to be a good fighter.


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## clfsean (Aug 15, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Well first off if you break down a compulsary form technique by technique you can use a lot of them in a fight but put a string of them together and probably not.



There's problem #1... sets are supposed to used to teach logical progression & chaining of techniques together, among other things. If they don't make sense, why do them?



JadeDragon3 said:


> As for your question "can they apply the techniques",  I'd say that depends on weather thier sifu taught that to them.



Whether or not the teacher shows them is problem #2. They should know the primary & subsequent application(s) of the technique & variations of them on top of it. If the teacher doesn't know how to apply a thing, why learn it unless you're doing it for show purposes only.



JadeDragon3 said:


> Bye the way, a lot of wu shu athletes do trad kung fu as well and know how to apply the techniques.  I know several wu shu people that are awesome fighters as well. My Sifu did wu shu and is known to be a good fighter.



Great for your sifu (but your sifu also learned the Ng stuff too which is supposed to be a TCMA family art) & great for them. The discussion here is talking in general terms for the whole of the modern wushu world. I've seen & met modern wushu players that when asked "How do you use 'X'?" they went straight out of the form & damn near killed themselves when a little resisting force was applied. 

I can't physically do 1/4 of what they do. However I can use 100% of what I know to defend myself & teach others how to do the same.


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## clfsean (Aug 15, 2008)

KarateEsq said:


> About half an hour from Dayton. The thing is, if it were just her interested in a martial art, then it wouldn't be such a problem. But with cross-country for her, dance for my younger daughter, guitar lessons for both daughters, wife training because she rides horses competitively, me getting back and taking guitar back up, as well as a martial art (I hope), among other things, time to drive any distance for a lesson might be at a definite premium!



How far is that from Akron? Premium TCMA is found here by the bundle...  http://wutangcenter.com/wt/index.html

Or Medina?? Same stuff, student of Tony Yang
http://www.wutangbrunswick.com/gpage4.html

Tallmadge?? Same same... 
http://www.bodymindharmony.com/


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 15, 2008)

CLF.......would you actually take a form from TCMA and try to do it move for move in an actual fight?  God I hope not.  What you said sounds like your saying that a wu shu form should be able to be done move for move in a fight. A person cound take a move from a form and apply it to a situation in real life. But to take a entire form and apply it, no.  So my question is why can't someone take a move from a wu shu form and apply it?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 15, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Bye the way, a lot of wu shu athletes do trad kung fu as well and know how to apply the techniques. I know several wu shu people that are awesome fighters as well. My Sifu did wu shu and is known to be a good fighter.


 
Why do you think they can fight?  Is it because they do modern wushu, or is it because they also trained in traditional wushu?

My sifu also coaches modern wushu, but he also can fight.  That's because he had a strong background in traditional wushu with some excellent teachers long before he began training in modern wushu.  So he knows the difference, and that makes all the difference in the world.  But if he needed to fight now, he wouldn't use modern wushu...


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## clfsean (Aug 15, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> CLF.......would you actually take a form from TCMA and try to do it move for move in an actual fight?  God I hope not.  What you said sounds like your saying that a wu shu form should be able to be done move for move in a fight. A person cound take a move from a form and apply it to a situation in real life. But to take a entire form and apply it, no.  So my question is why can't someone take a move from a wu shu form and apply it?



An entire form? Hell no... a sequence from the form or partial sequence? 2 or more techniques strung together logically with motion that feeds the next technique. Why  not? That's one of the old ways of creating sets. 

Besides that, if a person is able to take a single motion & end a conflict, they need to try the UFC with that kind of KO power.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 15, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> CLF.......would you actually take a form from TCMA and try to do it move for move in an actual fight? God I hope not. What you said sounds like your saying that a wu shu form should be able to be done move for move in a fight. A person cound take a move from a form and apply it to a situation in real life. But to take a entire form and apply it, no. So my question is why can't someone take a move from a wu shu form and apply it?


 
In modern Wushu do they ever train applications of the form or striking with the form?

In the Changquan that some of Modern Wushu comes form they sure do. 

Like I said many modern Wushu people in China, if they want martial arts train Sanshou. Hell Shaolin trains sanshou now, whats that tell ya.


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## DocWard (Aug 15, 2008)

clfsean said:


> How far is that from Akron? Premium TCMA is found here by the bundle...  http://wutangcenter.com/wt/index.html
> 
> Or Medina?? Same stuff, student of Tony Yang
> http://www.wutangbrunswick.com/gpage4.html
> ...



About two hours or so. I'm more southwest Ohio, those locations are northeast. Thanks for looking, though.


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## clfsean (Aug 15, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> In modern Wushu do they ever train applications of the form or striking with the form?



**Raises hand, bouncing in chair**

I KNOW, I KNOW



Xue Sheng said:


> In the Changquan that some of Modern Wushu comes form they sure do.



Yep... know a couple of Chang Quan (TCMA) people I don't want to be hit by... ever. They "got it"!



Xue Sheng said:


> Like I said many modern Wushu people in China, if they want martial arts train Sanshou. Hell Shaolin trains sanshou now, whats that tell ya.



When I was in China in '01 at both Liang Yi quan's school in Dengfeng & Zhao Chang jun's school in Xi'an, they had san shou teams separate from the forms people. The san shou people I watched at Shaolin (Liang's & the schools around the temple that aren't there anymore) hit, hit hard & often & being thrown meant hitting the ground, not a lei tai with mats. At Zhao's, san shou meant being tossed on concrete with that high weave carpet they use for padding.


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## clfsean (Aug 15, 2008)

KarateEsq said:


> About two hours or so. I'm more southwest Ohio, those locations are northeast. Thanks for looking, though.



No worries... check this place out... 

*Meng's* Martial Arts - Centerville&#8206;  -  more info »
51 E. Spring Valley Rd., Centerville, OH - (937) 236-6485&#8206;

Benny Meng... kinda controversial in the Wing Chun world, but nobody I've heard of doubts his hands...


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 15, 2008)

clfsean said:


> When I was in China in '01 at both Liang Yi quan's school in Dengfeng & Zhao Chang jun's school in Xi'an, they had san shou teams separate from the forms people. The san shou people I watched at Shaolin (Liang's & the schools around the temple that aren't there anymore) hit, hit hard & often & being thrown meant hitting the ground, not a lei tai with mats. At Zhao's, san shou meant being tossed on concrete with that high weave carpet they use for padding.


 
Oh I am not doubting thier ability with sanshou (my sanda [sanshou] sifu is from North China and was trained there) and I have no desire to go up against any of those training sanshou in China. My sifu does not even think about mats and also thinks heavy bags are to soft to train striking.

But from what I understand (and to be honest I wish I was wrong) the majority of the "Traditional" forms taught at shaolin are just that forms and the fighting comes form sanshou.


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## clfsean (Aug 15, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Oh I am not doubting thier ability with sanshou (my sanda [sanshou] sifu is from North China and was trained there) and I have no desire to go up against any of those training sanshou in China. My sifu does not even think about mats and also thinks heavy bags are to soft to train striking.


 
Hehehe... in Chen village... their punching bags were canvas sacks with dirt/sand/ground in them that had hardened from being out in the elements on their hanging stand to almost concrete. They showed old blood stains as well as fresh. This though was at the old school in the village, not the new school just outside the village.

Also... in Southern TCMA, we use dummies & sand bags. What's that lead you to believe? Yep, you guessed it... we're a bit tweaked. 



Xue Sheng said:


> But from what I understand (and to be honest I wish I was wrong) the majority of the "Traditional" forms taught at shaolin are just that forms and the fighting comes form sanshou.



Yep... that'd be the size of it. Now the one thing I will say is at least at the schools in Dengfeng, the kids do hit & kicks pads on a regular basis, but if they want to go sanshou, that's all they do. If they don't, then do do forms & supply monks for the shows at Shaolin.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 15, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> But from what I understand (and to be honest I wish I was wrong) the majority of the "Traditional" forms taught at shaolin are just that forms and the fighting comes form sanshou.


 
If you are talking about at the shaolin temple itself, it is my understanding that the forms being done there are primarily modern wushu based, and are meant as mostly a turist attraction.

When my sifu was at the temple, he did some traditional longfist that he learned from Wong Jack Man, and the older monks there said "oh yes, we remember when this used to be done here..."


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## clfsean (Aug 15, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> If you are talking about at the shaolin temple itself, it is my understanding that the forms being done there are primarily modern wushu based, and are meant as mostly a turist attraction.



They have their 10 core traditional sets but most for performance is wushu. There's even a standard "compulsary" Shaolin set now for competition.



Flying Crane said:


> When my sifu was at the temple, he did some traditional longfist that he learned from Wong Jack Man, and the older monks there said "oh yes, we remember when this used to be done here..."



Yeah Gene Ching said the same thing when he did BSL #6. They didn't recognize it as one of their sets, but they recognized it for what it is.


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## DocWard (Aug 15, 2008)

clfsean said:


> No worries... check this place out...
> 
> *Meng's* Martial Arts - Centerville&#8206;  -  more info »
> 51 E. Spring Valley Rd., Centerville, OH - (937) 236-6485&#8206;
> ...



Yes, that is closer, about 45 minutes, depending on traffic. If it were just her, without all of the other responsibilities, that might be one I would consider. I believe one of the guys I work with in my civilian job used to go there, now that you mention it. Why is he controversial?


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## clfsean (Aug 15, 2008)

KarateEsq said:


> Yes, that is closer, about 45 minutes, depending on traffic. If it were just her, without all of the other responsibilities, that might be one I would consider. I believe one of the guys I work with in my civilian job used to go there, now that you mention it. Why is he controversial?



Claims made for lost lineages, history, blah blah blah... normal stuff, but his Wing Chun (or Weng Chun as they spell it) is pretty dad-gummed good.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 15, 2008)

clfsean said:


> Hehehe... in Chen village... their punching bags were canvas sacks with dirt/sand/ground in them that had hardened from being out in the elements on their hanging stand to almost concrete. They showed old blood stains as well as fresh. This though was at the old school in the village, not the new school just outside the village.


 
My Sanda Sifu prefers trees, I know I have joked about that here on MT but that is really what he uses. And I still can't get myself to practice elbow strikes on a tree. 

The more I hear about the "new" Chen Village the less happy I get. They are also building rather large hotels near there or are soon to build them to accommodate the westerns that want to train Chen (I could go further here but it would be a rant that would upset a few).... sounds like it is going the route of Shaolin. 

I know Chen Zhenglei has schools outside of and away form Chen Village these days and I have heard good things but I have no first hand knowledge of them.

I hear Chen Xiaowang does still; on occasion teach apps as does Chen Zhenglie and Chen Bing is apparently real big on fighting. And then there is Ren Guangyi too I have heard he is rather serious about Chen style and when I talked to him he sounded as if he was, I may just have to go check his school out one of these days. 



clfsean said:


> Yep... that'd be the size of it. Now the one thing I will say is at least at the schools in Dengfeng, the kids do hit & kicks pads on a regular basis, but if they want to go sanshou, that's all they do. If they don't, then do do forms & supply monks for the shows at Shaolin.


 
There is another guy somewhere in China, I posted a link awhile back, that claims to be teaching and training REAL fighting Shaolin and form the clips I saw he may just be but he is not associated with the temple if I understand correctly.


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## DocWard (Aug 17, 2008)

Thanks for all the help guys. I think I am at least a little better educated now.

I don't know how much punching my daughter wants to do, particularly with unprotected hands. Aside from the aesthetic factor of the hands, she enjoys guitar and piano, and plays clarinet in band.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 17, 2008)

KarateEsq said:


> Thanks for all the help guys. I think I am at least a little better educated now.
> 
> I don't know how much punching my daughter wants to do, particularly with unprotected hands. Aside from the aesthetic factor of the hands, she enjoys guitar and piano, and plays clarinet in band.


 
I am not sure how much strike trainin you are going to get in the US without had protection. What we have been discussing is more how they train and trained in China or that done by a VERY traditional CMA Sifu.

And the Sanda/Sanshou I have been training is police/military not sport and the majority of Sanshou training with Wushu is sport and there WILL be hand protection.


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## DocWard (Aug 17, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am not sure how much strike trainin you are going to get in the US without had protection. What we have been discussing is more how they train and trained in China or that done by a VERY traditional CMA Sifu.
> 
> And the Sanda/Sanshou I have been training is police/military not sport and the majority of Sanshou training with Wushu is sport and there WILL be hand protection.



I had assumed as much, I should have let you know I was being a little facetious, sorry. I should say though, that I am convinced that my punching things for years in Kenpo before trying to learn guitar has made it a bigger challenge than it would have been otherwise.

I do want her to have some training in striking, though. I just want her to be careful in doing so.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 18, 2008)

KarateEsq said:


> I had assumed as much, I should have let you know I was being a little facetious, sorry. I should say though, that I am convinced that my punching things for years in Kenpo before trying to learn guitar has made it a bigger challenge than it would have been otherwise.
> 
> I do want her to have some training in striking, though. I just want her to be careful in doing so.


 
I use to play guitar and still dabble so I understand.

There are a lot of palm strikes in CMA (depending on style) and that may alleviate some of the problem and if it is Modern Wushu in the US it is likely there will be no strike training what-so-ever


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 18, 2008)

Nice thread.  Most importantly have her in something that she is interested in and enjoys.


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## clfsean (Aug 18, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I use to play guitar and still dabble so I understand.
> 
> There are a lot of palm strikes in CMA (depending on style) and that may alleviate some of the problem and if it is Modern Wushu in the US it is likely there will be no strike training what-so-ever



Same here regarding guitar. 

Also another thing to keep in mind, most CMA schools will keep a supply of dit da jow on hand for use before & after training to help reduce the wear & tear on the hands, arms, legs & feet.


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## DocWard (Aug 19, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Nice thread.  Most importantly have her in something that she is interested in and enjoys.



She is the one who has expressed an interest in it, so we will see how it goes.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is "dit da jow?"


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## Flying Crane (Aug 19, 2008)

KarateEsq said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but what is "dit da jow?"


 
It is a linament commonly used in Chinese martial arts schools to help heal the bruising and trauma that happens due to training.  If you are doing drills that include body-contact, such as striking forearms to forearms to build conditioning, this leads to bruising.  Also, striking heavy bags, or sand bags or wooden dummies and other types of impact training/conditioning can lead to bruising and whatnot.  So before and after this kind of training, the linament is rubbed into the arms and hands and it helps them to heal more quickly and completely after the training, and contributes to effective conditioning for striking.  It also helps to prevent permanent injuries from the impact training.  If you do it wrong, or without good linament and you are doing heavy impact training, you can get gradual injuries that damage your hands and stuff, arthritis and even nerve damage if you are really doing it wrong.  

Traditionally, the teacher would have his own recipe and would make it himself from medicinal herbs and whatnot, based on Chinese medicine.  Often, these recipes were held as a family secret and only passed on to the most trustworthy students.  Not as many people have continued to do this, but dit da jow is available commercially, if you know where to look for it.  

It isn't all the same, tho.  Some of the commercial stuff isn't as good as others, so it's good to get a recommendation from someone that you trust as to who sells or makes good stuff.  I've had allergic reactions to some formulas, I had a rash break out on my arms after rubbing it in.  That doesn't necessarily mean it isn't good jow, it just means there is something in the recipe that I am allergic to, so I can't use that particular one.


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 19, 2008)

For a good dit da jow try this simple but effective one:

one fifth of cheap whiskey
two ounces of Bai Zhi (angelica root)
two ounces of Xue Jie (dragons blood)
three ounces of Ru Xiang (frankincense)
three ounces of Mo Yao (myhrr)
two ounces of pseudogensing

Mix all in with the whiskeyin a glass container.  Let stand for one month.  Shake vigerously every day.  Keep in a cool place out of the sunlight.

This is good for bruises, swelling, and mild pain.  This dit da jow has a slight cooling effect.


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 19, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> For a good dit da jow try this simple but effective one:
> 
> one fifth of cheap whiskey
> two ounces of Bai Zhi (angelica root)
> ...


 
You can get most of those herbs at a chinese grocery store or asain super market


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## DocWard (Sep 4, 2008)

Well, my wife e-mailed and indicated that the Wushu my daughter will be taking is pretty much just performance oriented. She talked with the instructor and came away with that much. My daughter loved her first session though, so we'll see how she sticks with it. I will find out more as time goes on, and I get home, I am sure.


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## Ninebird8 (Sep 19, 2008)

The original wushu requirements taught by Wu Bin and propagated by people like Jet Li were and are effective techniques. The modern nan quan, chan quan, etc. are not and are glorified gymnastics. I competed for 18 years all over the US and lived/trained for 2 years in Hong Kong and seen the differences even between the forms 25 years ago and now. Jet Li, Kenny Perez, Keith Hyrabashi, Gary Toy, etc. were all exceptional wushu and fighters who knew how to do both. But, and here I disagree with Jade, if I ran a very good and advanced eagle claw form, Nine bird Shaolin form, etc. I could win almost any time and fight with those techniques. In modern tournaments, the fighting, whether Chinese tournaments or not, are nothing more than kick and punch with very little mantis, eagle, snake, etc theory used!! I was trained in the traditional way, very hard, and at age 50 can do most of what I learned, but have also trained in tai chi the last 12 years and that has had a profound effect. Plus, at my age, my kung fu is more about becoming natural, not techniques, and growing the fa jing, nei gung, etc. Modern wushu very rarely teaches these internal concepts, and as a result most wushu artists I have judged or even fought are empty in that regard. The ones who do have it, invariably,have been doing wushu over 20 years and learned it in the middle or toward the end of the old rules. Modern wushu, with the rules of the last 2-5 years, is NOT fighting applications. To some points made here, the old rule was practice high, kick low. I can still do a split, still kick in the face, etc, but choose not  because in most cases those are useless in a real fight. Jade, I understand and respect both your loyalty to your training and to your sifu, that is what is to be expected, but how many full contact matches have you had where you got disqualified if you did not use your system (i.e. said you were mantis but just kicked rather than use the actual techniques), fighting and protecting you and yours on the street, or sweated blood while in a circle of your seniors as they came in to fight you? How many times did you have bamboo or wax staffs broken over your legs, your back, or had someone kick you full power with a jinged kick to your stomach or groin area, and were not allowed to move? Sit in horse stance during a 6 hour test for rank, and have your two seniors, a snake and a dragon, hold two real gim swords at your neck and were told to use them if you came up before 30 minutes of mabu parallel to the ground after 6 hours of testing? In other words, I respect the stamina aspects of modern wushu and the athletic skill, but when was the last time during your training that you were filmed fighting your master for 4 and a half hours, where you are padded up and he is not, and he is 5'11" 300 lbs. and fast, no fat, from Hong Kong, and you are 5'4" 150 lbs. and not allowed to run away?! 

In other words, with respect, I do not allow modern wushu artists to compete in our Northern traditional ring when I am head judge, and their weapon sets, with the light staffs, flexisabres, and double hook swords that shake when you look at them, are not permitted either.

I mean no disrespect, but if you knew Madame Wong Ju Rong, or her family, or other great artists who learned traditionally during the Cultural revolution and were forced to hide or escape, like Liang Shouyu, because their fighting skills were held in disrepute, or Chairman Mao and Chou En Lai forcing the advent of wushu and personally stating the art should not be for fighting in 1967-69, you would understand my reluctance. I agree with you that the first and second generation of wushu artists, from the 70s to the late 80s, could fight (I gave American examples earlier of wushu artists from the 80s), but the modern wushu rules are geared toward gymnastics and incomplete technique. 

This is just my opinion, and I am not attacking or disparaging any one person directly, these are just my observations over time and years of competing and judging. As well as real fighting using my styles.


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## Ninebird8 (Sep 19, 2008)

By the way, dit da jow is wonderful stuff for training but, correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe the tiger wine elements needed to make it most effective, has been banned in Asia due to the decline of tigers and tiger bones. The ones made today have more alcohol usually, but are not allowed to ferment for the 3-7 years to make it most effective. I am not a herbalist, so if I am wrong here I apologize!! Can someone more educated on this topic speak to it than me?


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## JadeDragon3 (Sep 19, 2008)

Ninebird8 said:


> By the way, dit da jow is wonderful stuff for training but, correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe the tiger wine elements needed to make it most effective, has been banned in Asia due to the decline of tigers and tiger bones. The ones made today have more alcohol usually, but are not allowed to ferment for the 3-7 years to make it most effective. I am not a herbalist, so if I am wrong here I apologize!! Can someone more educated on this topic speak to it than me?


 
You can make very good jows using different chinese herbs.  Tigers and tiger bones aren't the only things that can be used.  Also I've been told by several that after about 5 years a dit da jow starts to loose it's potency.  It only takes about 6 months for it to be a very strong jow.  The recipe that I posted works well for me.


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