# Weapons in Karate???



## Karate_Warrior (Apr 23, 2006)

Hello. 
Is it weapons in Karate???


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## barriecusvein (Apr 23, 2006)

Karate Forum Description said:
			
		

> Karate is a term that either means "Chinese Hand" or "Empty Hand"



Since no japanese person would ever allow karate to mean chinese hand, they all say it means empty hand. So called due to no weapons.


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## Henderson (Apr 23, 2006)

barriecusvein said:
			
		

> Since no japanese person would ever allow karate to mean chinese hand, they all say it means empty hand. So called due to no weapons.


While in translation it does mean "empty hand", that is not to say that there are no weapons.  Many Okinawan styles study traditional weapons within their karate curriculum.  Weapons like sai, tonfa, nunchaku, oar, etc.


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## Henderson (Apr 23, 2006)

Karate_Warrior said:
			
		

> Hello.
> Is it weapons in Karate???


 
See link attached.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_weapon


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## terryl965 (Apr 23, 2006)

Yes ther is weapons in Karate, the question should be is your Dojo or Dojandg teaching weapons and is that what you are looking for.
Terry


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 23, 2006)

Also depends on the style of Karate.  Shotokan doesn't usually train in weapons, whereas Shorin Ryu does a lot.

Jeff


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## Henderson (Apr 23, 2006)

Our style of Goju ryu does not include traditional Okinawan weapons either, but that does not change the fact that weapons are a very long tradition of karate.

Respects...


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## Spider (Apr 23, 2006)

they are wepons in karate because i am a black belt and in black belt club and thats where we do wepons


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## Andrew Green (Apr 23, 2006)

In general Okinawan styles do, Japanese not.  Of course that is not a set in stone rule 

The weapons aspect of karate you will often find refered to as "Ryukyu Kobudo" (Ryukyu = Okinawan, Kobudo = "Old Martial Way")

Most clubs will teach at least Bo and Sai, however it is often just forms though, no real application or sparring.

"Modern" styles of Karate, meaning the sport-karate / tournament orientated styles will also generally include weapons, no traditional forms or application, just flashy tournament stuff.


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## Karate_Warrior (Apr 23, 2006)

Thanks guys:asian:


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## Henderson (Apr 23, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> "Modern" styles of Karate, meaning the sport-karate / tournament orientated styles will also generally include weapons, no traditional forms or application, just flashy tournament stuff.


And this is very sad indeed.


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## TimoS (Apr 24, 2006)

barriecusvein said:
			
		

> Since no japanese person would ever allow karate to mean chinese hand, they all say it means empty hand. So called due to no weapons.



As has already been established, this is not the case. The kanji for empty (kara) in karate is, according to our sensei, more of a philosophical concept (like emptiness) and not literally empty. Most common weapons are, I think, bo, tonfa, sai and nunchaku. Also kama is taught and some use eku, rochin and tinpe. Here's a list and additional information about the weapons http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/013/index.html


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## Grenadier (Apr 24, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Also depends on the style of Karate. Shotokan doesn't usually train in weapons, whereas Shorin Ryu does a lot.
> 
> Jeff


 
Also, it can vary from within the same style as well.  Some schools within a given style teach kobudo, others do not.  

It does seem that most Karate schools, whether they practice an Okinawan or Japanese style, teach kobudo.  Some simply offer it as a supplement to the empty hand training, while others heavily integrate it.


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## Jimi (Apr 24, 2006)

Sadly, a lot of schools with only a Korean affiliated system in place, teach some Okinawan Weapons (Kobudo) as a tournament Karate aspect of competition. I have seen many Black Belts with no Traditional Kobudo training teaching Nunchaku, Sai, Tonfa & Kama as if they knew how to train them. Many of these Black Belts do not know how to truely train the weapons. Because they have Black Belt rank, many asume they know these weapons, and they do not. Many of them have seen others winning with such weapons in musical forms and just copy what they see with no understanding. Swing the Chux or Kama etc... then jump spin kick, back flip & Kiai! My first Instructor was a Black Belt in both Korean & Okinawan systems, so I learned Kobudo as it was taught to him and his colleagues. We trained Nunchaku, Sai, Tonfa & Kama Against a Shinai to simulate a conflict against a Katana weilding opponent. Got hit a lot, but learned how the weapons should function. Modern competition has changed this for the most part. My Sensei would roll over in his grave if he saw what Extreme Martial Arts were doing with Kobudo in competition now. Those who truely know how to train such weapons, I have respect for, those who don't, I see as chidren playing with Ninja Turtle toys. Rant Over.


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## TimoS (Apr 24, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> We trained Nunchaku, Sai, Tonfa & Kama Against a Shinai to simulate a conflict against a Katana weilding opponent



Wow, really? Good for you! Our kobudo also starts with the premise that your opponent is wielding a katana. Not a traditional Okinawan kobudo style, obviously, but we really don't care!


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Apr 26, 2006)

Karate_Warrior said:
			
		

> Hello.
> Is it weapons in Karate???


 
in the wado style we are taught some rudimentary techniques of tanto (knife) and katana (sword) because we have paired katas "tanto dori" and "shinken shiraha dori" which is basically pairworks of defenses against sword and knife.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 28, 2006)

Weapons? What weapons? These are a bunch of farming tools!


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## TimoS (Apr 28, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Weapons? What weapons? These are a bunch of farming tools!



What else could they be, since karate was a peasant art  After a hard days work on the field, they would go out and practise karate all night


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## Hand Sword (Apr 28, 2006)

Yep! And I am very greatful for them!

Respect to all of the unsung and unknown pioneers!!!  :asian:


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## Grenadier (Apr 28, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> Swing the Chux or Kama etc... then jump spin kick, back flip & Kiai!


 
Ugh...  I've seen this as well.  

The town in which I train / teach, held a vendors' exhibition weekend, for the various businesses in town to show their wares.  They allowed us to hold a demo each day, and we did incorporate some traditional kobudo work.  

Unfortunately, there was also another martial arts school putting on a demonstration.  While they claimed to teach authentic Okinawan Karate, one of their yudansha performed a kata using a katana, and ended up doing several 360 degree jumping spinning kicks, and at one time, even ended up lodging his sword blade into the ground when he lost control.  

Thankfully, nobody got hurt, but I did get rather irritated when I saw this fellow trying to play it off as if it were part of his kata.  After seeing the look in his eyes (yes, the one where he knew he messed up by letting the sword hit the ground), he didn't pick up his sword, instead performing some breathing excercises, and trying to fudge a few empty hand moves until he abruptly ended the kata.  

Worst of all, some of the folks attending the exhibition thought he was from our school...

Rest assured, if someone jumps, spins, kicks, and flips in a weapons kata, it's not traditional Kobudo!!


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## Jimi (Apr 28, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> Ugh...  I've seen this as well.
> 
> The town in which I train / teach, held a vendors' exhibition weekend, for the various businesses in town to show their wares. They allowed us to hold a demo each day, and we did incorporate some traditional kobudo work.
> 
> ...


LORD HAVE MERCY!


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## JPH (Apr 28, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> Ugh... I've seen this as well.
> 
> Rest assured, if someone jumps, spins, kicks, and flips in a weapons kata, it's not traditional Kobudo!!


 




Ahmen, Grenadier!


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## Hand Sword (May 2, 2006)

I would agree, strongly! Acrobatics has no place in the Traditional Karate Styles.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 2, 2006)

Weapons training in Japanese systems are typically called Kobudo however they are used in conjunction with the empty hand training also many times.


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## thescottishdude (May 5, 2006)

I did karate for 5 years and I know that 99% of it was weaponless. the instructor did know hot to use a staff and a sword but I don't know if he learne dthem through karate.


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## TimoS (May 5, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> I did karate for 5 years and I know that 99% of it was weaponless.



You've had bad luck then. With us, karate and kobudo are integrated into one, meaning that the empty hand moves and the weapons work look almost identical. This means that we often practise our empty hand sets (and sometimes the kata also) with weapons


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## Jimi (May 5, 2006)

TimoS said:
			
		

> You've had bad luck then. With us, karate and kobudo are integrated into one, meaning that the empty hand moves and the weapons work look almost identical. This means that we often practise our empty hand sets (and sometimes the kata also) with weapons


I agree with you here, I was taught that the weapons of Okinawan systems were based on emptyhanded defense. The farm tools were weapons at hand for Okinawan farmers/fishermen, then later intergrated into their systems. Once a good base of emptyhand was set, adding weapons increased its potential. Heian Nidan is bone breaking with a set of Tonfa. Just my opinion.


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## mantis (May 5, 2006)

Karate_Warrior said:
			
		

> Hello.
> Is it weapons in Karate???


weapons in "empty hand"?

.. im sure lots of comments had that somewhere, just wanted to rub it in again haha


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## TimoS (May 5, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> The farm tools were weapons at hand for Okinawan farmers/fishermen, then later intergrated into their systems.



Well, karate never was a farmers/fishermens art. Think about it: you work hard day on the field/sea to scratch a living for your family, would you then have the energy to practise karate? I know I wouldn't! It was e.g. the royal bodyguards and nobles who practised karate, they had the possibility of doing so. The "farmer art" is just a legend. Granted, some of the weapons you see in ryukyu kobujutsu are either farm tools or derived from them (such as tonfa, sai and most likely eiku, the oar). The origin of nunchaku is debatable, where as sai has been a weapon in other far-eastern cultures also


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## Jimi (May 5, 2006)

Are you saying peasant Okinawans had almost no access to emptyhand training? Kobudo is all weapons at hand? The Japanese did not adopt Karate untill around 1926 or so, or am I grossly  misinformed?


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## TimoS (May 5, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> Are you saying peasant Okinawans had almost no access to emptyhand training?



Dunno about that, but I would imagine that on the whole they didn't have time nor the energy for serious karate training



> The Japanese did not adopt Karate untill around 1926 or so, or am I grossly  misinformed?



Hmm, around that time it started to grow, little by little. I don't have the source material with me and I'm too lazy to check it out right now, but according to wikipedia, Funakoshi introduced karate in 1921 and built Shotokan dojo in 1936


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## Jimi (May 5, 2006)

I was told that many Okinawans trained in the evening as not to draw attention to their training. Even after a hard days work, I would , as I imagine Okinawans would train to safeguard their families from Samurai testing their blades and taking what they wanted. Never thought Karate was an art of Okinawan Royalbodyguards or Nobles. Just my opinion. PEACE


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## TimoS (May 5, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> Okinawans would train to safeguard their families from Samurai testing their blades and taking what they wanted



Well, the conquest of Okinawa by japanese was, to exaggerate a bit, more like Japanese: "nice land, it's ours now!" Okinawans: "fine!"



> Never thought Karate was an art of Okinawan Royalbodyguards or Nobles.



Trust me, it was


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## Brandon Fisher (May 5, 2006)

TimoS said:
			
		

> You've had bad luck then. With us, karate and kobudo are integrated into one, meaning that the empty hand moves and the weapons work look almost identical. This means that we often practise our empty hand sets (and sometimes the kata also) with weapons


Thats what I am doing in a large part with my weapons ciriculum.


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## Andrew Green (May 5, 2006)

Couple things:

Kobudo = "Old Martial Way", what is being discussed here is specific to Okinawan Kobudo, ie. weapons.  In Japan proper Kobudo / Koryu refers to arts, empty hand or weapons, which trace back to before the Meiji Restoration.




			
				Jimi said:
			
		

> Are you saying peasant Okinawans had almost no access to emptyhand training? Kobudo is all weapons at hand? The Japanese did not adopt Karate untill around 1926 or so, or am I grossly  misinformed?



Okinawan martial arts where different for different groups in my understanding.  Peasant practices would have been different then people with money, where it would likely have been more formalized into kata and such.

An example of this is the weapons used by the Peichin (sp?) class, essentially policing class, where the Bo and the Sai, for which there are tons of kata dating quite a ways back.

Weapons considered "peasant" weapons, like the nunchaku, tekko, kama, etc. Have very few kata, and the ones that are there tend to be fairly recently created.


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## Jimi (May 5, 2006)

I guess my understanding of Okinawan Weapons training and history must be off the mark. Never imagined that Royalbodyguards or Nobles would so quicky resort to tools as weaons i.e. Tonfa (well crank handles), Sai (pitch forks) NunChaku (rice thrashers) Kama (stalk reapers). I will gladly review more info provided by posters here to better my understanding. I simply believed weapons such as these were more of a peasants arsenal rather than that of Nobles. My old instructor may have misslead me. No disrespect, just trying to see it differently. Live and learn. PEACE


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## Andrew Green (May 5, 2006)

Sai where not pitchforks, they where a weapon and a status symbol.

The policies class, one of the lowest of the "upper" class used Bo and sai, Sai for the higher ranking ones.

Some of the other weapons where peasant weapons, in modern times it's all been squished together though.


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## Jimi (May 5, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Sai where not pitchforks, they where a weapon and a status symbol.
> 
> The policies class, one of the lowest of the "upper" class used Bo and sai, Sai for the higher ranking ones.
> 
> Some of the other weapons where peasant weapons, in modern times it's all been squished together though.


I did not know that. Cool, more than just a Ninja Turtle Toy. Thanks for the insight. Sure colleages of my old instructor should have known that. PEACE


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## Brandon Fisher (May 5, 2006)

That is true the sai by my understanding was devoloped outside of Okinawa as a weapon and it was never used as a farming implament.


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## Jimi (May 6, 2006)

Brandon Fisher said:
			
		

> That is true the sai by my understanding was devoloped outside of Okinawa as a weapon and it was never used as a farming implament.


Would you agree that the Sai is a classic counter Katana weapon as used in the Okinawan Systems?


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## Jimi (May 6, 2006)

Brandon Fisher said:
			
		

> That is true the sai by my understanding was devoloped outside of Okinawa as a weapon and it was never used as a farming implament.


 Would you agree that the Sai is a classic counter Katana weapon as used in the Okinawan Systems?


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## Brandon Fisher (May 7, 2006)

As far as my research has shown that is the case.  So yes I would agree with that.  But the sai is also quite effectice against a bo among other weapons also.  But the Sai has always seemed to be a status symbol.


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## Jimi (May 7, 2006)

Brandon Fisher said:
			
		

> As far as my research has shown that is the case. So yes I would agree with that. But the sai is also quite effectice against a bo among other weapons also. But the Sai has always seemed to be a status symbol.


Thanks, I feel better knowing that at least that understanding of the Sai is on the mark. BTW, What is your source for research in the Okinawan Arts such as Kobudo, mine is simply that I trained with men from the old east coast martial arts demo team. People like Sensei Randy Wozin (deceased) Sensei Clarence Murray, Jimmy Yee, Sensei Jesse Stelle amoung others. Matbe I can understand more of my misinformation. PEACE


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## Brandon Fisher (May 7, 2006)

Jimi,
I have used a lot of resources over the years.  Your information that the sai was a farm implement is the most common story of the history.  It very well may be true but the thing that got me was this website: www.ryukyu-kobudo.com and via George Alexander saying on his sai jutsu dvd (www.yamazato-videos.com) that it was not a farm implement.  However I just reread the ryukyu kobudo description and it looks like it was used as defense of king and queens 



> *The Sai (Steel Truncheon) &#37365;* passed through India and China to enter the Ryukyu where it was further developed. During the Ryukyu Kingdom Era, it was originally devised as a policing tool for the protection of the King and high ministers. Used in combat situations and in the arresting of ruffians, criminals. The Busa (martial artists) formulated Kata so people could train by themselves in offensive and defensive techniques. The primary emphasis being self-defence and policing. Also called Jutte or Nunte


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## Andrew Green (May 7, 2006)

It's also not unique as a weapon to Okinawa, but the farming tool story I believe is.

Other countries have had sai, under different names, as a weapon.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 7, 2006)

I need to research this throughly if I can just find the time I am really intiqued now that I looked at Fumio Demura's book on Sai.  The history states in that book that the sai was used as a farming implemnt by dragging it through the field while another farmer followed planting the seeds.


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## Andrew Green (May 7, 2006)

try looking for something called a "tjabang"


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## Brandon Fisher (May 7, 2006)

So far I have only been able to confirm both sides of the story.  It looks as though it depends on who you talk to and lineage of the instructor.


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## Jimi (May 8, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> try looking for something called a "tjabang"


That's the Silat practitioners term for the same weapon I believe, I was told by an Instructor/Friend that in Indonesia this was also used a stake down the leash of a farm animal. I just thought , if a little Indonesian man can uproot this stake, so could an animal. But the fact that a Sai, Jabang or what ever name you call it, is a great blade trapping weapon. Bukti Negara has 2 of these weapons displayed in their logo, a bird of prey is holding one in each talon, and the birds breast seems to have a tiger (feline) head. This weapon has been around. Not exclusive to Okinawa, but most in the states reconize it from the Okinawan systems, children yell Raphiel Ninja Turtles Go!


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## Brandon Fisher (May 10, 2006)

I have a email into Patrick McCarthy to see if he can had something to this from his research.  I will update this thread if I hear back.


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## Explorer (May 23, 2006)

Saiko-Shihan Mikio Nishiuchi has a wonderful series of DVDs that I use as a reference tool.  He trained in Okinawa and, later, founded the International Okinawa Kobudo Association.

I've spoken with him on the phone, he is very kind and helpful.  I recommend his DVDs highly.


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## monkey (May 23, 2006)

There were many wepons in Okinawa as there were give 12 chinese monks as a gift.Those had to change as McCarther  signed the scatt law in ww1 & prohibited martial arts.The wepons became farm tool ect.Great people came from that Oyata-Hohan Soken- to name a few.I know George Allexander has a great history of Okinawa showing rits & rare photos & video clips of rare masters.The fuuny thing about the scatt law was the Airforce & some females like Trumans wife & others did judo at that time.How odd occidentals can but yet the source or founders cant.


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## TimoS (May 23, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> There were many wepons in Okinawa as there were give 12 chinese monks as a gift.



Eh? Sorry, but doesn't quite make sense. What was given as a gift? The weapons or the monks?



> Those had to change as McCarther  signed the scatt law in ww1 & prohibited martial arts.



That would be WW2, not 1



> The fuuny thing about the scatt law was the Airforce & some females like Trumans wife & others did judo at that time.How odd occidentals can but yet the source or founders cant.



Because judo was "sold" as a sport, the ban was lifted, apparently in 1947, so nothing unusual about that


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## chinto (Jun 9, 2007)

Karate_Warrior said:


> Hello.
> Is it weapons in Karate???


 

meany of the Okinawan styles of Karate teach weapons as part of the curiculum. the weapons art is called Kobujitsu or kobudo. and they have traditionaly been tought together. after all if you got a weapon handy you would use it in a life and death fight. the man who studied Karate on Okinawa in say 1700 or 1910 either way was looking at training to survive any altercation that was quite reasonably considerd to be a life and death thing if it happend.  Personaly I would say that  today on the street it would be prudent to assume that any altercation has at the minumum a posiblility of being a life and death altercation.


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## chinto (Jun 11, 2007)

Jimi said:


> Would you agree that the Sai is a classic counter Katana weapon as used in the Okinawan Systems?


 

I would submit that the sai is more a weapon optimized to deal with a bo or perhaps a yari then a katana. The Japanese Jute is the weapon that is similar to a sai that is optimized to deal with a katana. The quillian is much closer to the shaft of the weapon to allow it to trap and hold a sword blade that is not nearly as thick as say a bo shaft. That is not to say that a sai is not effective agenst a sword in the hands of a skilled man, just that it is not optimized for it.  

I also read one source that said that the sai was almost the same as a police officers badge at some points in time on Okinawa.  I have no way to confirm of deny  this though. So can not say if it is true.  There are theories that the sai was derived from a fish gaff, and that could easily fit the ninti sai, but again I have no definitive information on that.


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## Victor Smith (Jun 11, 2007)

The systesm of kobudo study from Okinawa utilize weapons that can be found in many other SE Asian cultures.  The Chinese crutch is similar to the Tonfa. The Sai are found in other cultures. The Kama is a unversal gardening tool, the same with the Bo, found everywhere in the world.

Kobudo seems to have developed mostly in family or town systems of study. By the 1920's it was on its way of the big decline but individuals like Moden Yabiku, Mabuni Kenwa and Taira Shinken began working to save those traditions. As time passed others such as the Yammani ryu, Matayoshi's Kobudo, and other more rare systems began to be shared pubically.

Things always changed. Today some Yammani practitioners have added Sai, where Yammani originally was just a bo system of study.

In the past 50 or so years some of the Karate systems began to add kobudo more significantly.

Kyan Chotoku only incorporated one bo kata (Tokomeni No Kon) but in time some of his students also trained with Taira Shinken and various other kobudo studies were added.

When karate transferred to Japan, Funakoshi Ginchin did demonstrate sai and bo (his father was a bo expert) but those arts didn't fit the needs of the University students he was developing, nor did karate grappling studies. Japan had its own old weapons traditions, and developed judo from jujutsu, so why add what the  Japanese weren't looking for in any case.

Functionaity can always be discussed, but in recent history the use of kobudo for significent self defense is non-existent.

The most obvious value to long term (20+ year) kobudo study is the secondary value it imparts for strength, grip and etc.


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## chinto (Jul 16, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> I need to research this throughly if I can just find the time I am really intiqued now that I looked at Fumio Demura's book on Sai. The history states in that book that the sai was used as a farming implemnt by dragging it through the field while another farmer followed planting the seeds.


 

dont know about that, but I had a lot of fun at class recently throwing them.  the sai is of course thown in the kata at times and often were carried not in pairs but in sets of 3 so you could throw one.  ( it is a lot of fun to do, and not a bad idea to find out how well they work for you at diferent distances.)


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## Jin Gang (Jul 16, 2007)

It's true.  Sai are a Chinese weapon, or at least used in some Chinese martial arts.  It's not a really common weapon, but it's there.  It was definately never a farming tool.  This is a myth perpetuated by folks who just didn't know.  Same with the tuifa aka crutch.  The Okinawan version is shorter.  It could have been made from a mill handle, I suppose, but I don't think it is a coincidence that a form of the weapon also exists in China.


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## TimoS (Jul 16, 2007)

Jin Gang said:


> Same with the tuifa aka crutch.  The Okinawan version is shorter.  It could have been made from a mill handle, I suppose, but I don't think it is a coincidence that a form of the weapon also exists in China.



I was under the impression that it wasn't a very common weapon in chinese martial arts? At least some of my friends who are practising kung-fu here in Finland are saying that only some styles use it (granted, we don't have too many real kung-fu schools here)


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 16, 2007)

chinto said:


> dont know about that, but I had a lot of fun at class recently throwing them. the sai is of course thown in the kata at times and often were carried not in pairs but in sets of 3 so you could throw one. ( it is a lot of fun to do, and not a bad idea to find out how well they work for you at diferent distances.)


True at times they were thrown and carried in sets of 3.  Since I posted that over a year ago I have spoken with other kobudo sensei and have confirmed that the sai was always a weapon and never used as a farming implement.  Why Demura Sensei put that in his book I don't know.  But Nakamoto Kiichi among others told me about it not being used as a farming implement.


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## Jin Gang (Jul 16, 2007)

Tuifa and Sai (cha) are not common weapons in modern Chinese martial arts.  But they obviously were popular enough in the areas that Okinawa had contact with to get exposure.  I believe they were more common in the southern regions, like Fujian, (where Okinawan karate styles are said to have their origins).  Currently, you can see them in use in some Taiwanese styles (many Taiwanese are also descended from Fujianese/Minh speaking people), and in some other regions of southeast Asia.  In a book about Shandong Black Tiger style Shaolin kung fu, it mentions the cha (and shows a picture) in a list of "common weapons" in the style.  And that is a northern style.

The point is, the sai has always been a weapon.  It's not unique to Okinawa.  Who first invented it and what area it came from, we might never know.  It is obvious that it is designed as a defensive weapon (at least in its current incarnation), meant to block blows from swords and other weapons, and useful for disarming and arresting people.  The story about it being a law enforcement implement is probably not far from the truth.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 16, 2007)

Nope the sai are not unique or native to Okinawa.  They are a import do to the expense of the iron ore needed to fabricate them.


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## arnisador (Jul 16, 2007)

The bo and the sai are the most commonly studied weapons in Okinawan Karate systems. Whether they are considered to be part of the study of Karate per se, or a complementary study of Kobudo, depends on the system. Less common but not uncommon are the nunchaku, tonfa, and kama; there are even less common weapons, including the knife, a four foot staff, an oar, and a sword and shield.

In Japanese Karate, the bo is the most common weapon. Any of the avove plus the spear are reasonably commonly seen, and you'll also find Japanese weapons, including the katana.


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## chinto (Jul 17, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> True at times they were thrown and carried in sets of 3. Since I posted that over a year ago I have spoken with other kobudo sensei and have confirmed that the sai was always a weapon and never used as a farming implement. Why Demura Sensei put that in his book I don't know. But Nakamoto Kiichi among others told me about it not being used as a farming implement.


 

could not say really why the diferent storys are there. but i have been told that the manji no sai my have come from a gaff the fishermen used. I find it at least plosible that that might be true.


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## chinto (Jul 23, 2007)

arnisador said:


> The bo and the sai are the most commonly studied weapons in Okinawan Karate systems. Whether they are considered to be part of the study of Karate per se, or a complementary study of Kobudo, depends on the system. Less common but not uncommon are the nunchaku, tonfa, and kama; there are even less common weapons, including the knife, a four foot staff, an oar, and a sword and shield.
> 
> In Japanese Karate, the bo is the most common weapon. Any of the avove plus the spear are reasonably commonly seen, and you'll also find Japanese weapons, including the katana.


 

the okinawans had a lot of weapons that were also tools. yhe kue/kuwa a mattock type of tool like a grub hoe or mattock, and others  some were weapons pure and simple like the tekko.  the system I study teaches a lot of weapons as part of the system.  I know some of the use of several including tekko and eku and some other weapons that are not as comon.  but I beleave that the study of kobdo/kobujitsu was at least in history a comon thing as part of training in Karate.
After all would you not pick up a weapon to use if it was avalible when you knew that if you lost the fight it was about a 90% to 95% chance that you would not survive the encounter??!


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