# Turtle Defense/ Krav cover



## Runs With Fire (May 14, 2018)

A brief explanation of what showed up in the self defense thread.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 14, 2018)

- Your arms are too close to your own head. You give your opponent too much free space.
- The US anti-missile system should be set in Alaska than to be set in Washington DC.
- It's better to fight in your opponent's territory than to fight in your own territory.
- Old saying said that you don't want to touch with 10 ft pole. Old saying would never say that you don't want to touch with 6 inch stick.
- The farther distance that you can interrupt your opponent's attack, the safer you will be.
- As far as for self-defense, wrist gate defense > elbow gate defense > shoulder gate defense.
- When your arms are close to your own head, your opponent's head lock can lock your arms and head at the same time. That will be a bad situation to be in.


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## Runs With Fire (May 14, 2018)

Didn't say I liked it.  It's a defense for a fast barage of head shots.  To be used  before you  are completely overwhelmed and KO'd.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 14, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> Didn't say I liked it.  It's a defense for a fast barage of head shots.  To be used  before you  are completely overwhelmed and KO'd.


There is better way to protect your own head from punching.

1. A turtle uses his shield to protect his head.
2. A rhino uses his horn to protect his head.

IMO, 2 > 1


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## Runs With Fire (May 14, 2018)

When done with only one arm ( kickboxing  cover),  it's usually turned into a battering ram elbow straight to a pectoral muscle
  We call that,  " The Rhino Horn".   It still works to a degree with both arms.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 14, 2018)

To apply "hair combing", one arm should be enough. In that clip, why did he use both arms to protect the right side of his head and leave the left side of his head open?


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## Runs With Fire (May 15, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To apply "hair combing", one arm should be enough. In that clip, why did he use both arms to protect the right side of his head and leave the left side of his head open?




The main goal here is to protect the jaw/ neck and temple, and keep the head from racking when struck.  The cross arm covers the temple and pulls the the head in solid so it won't rock when hit.  A punch will sting your arm, probaly give you a headache,  but you won't likely get knocked out.


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## Kababayan (May 15, 2018)

I always love supporting my Krav brothers and sisters, but this particular techniques is not part of Imi Lichtenfeld's Krav Maga system (unless someone from one of the Big Four organisations added it.)  Not that it matters regarding the effectiveness of the technique, but there is a big push in the Krav community to keep it from becoming a system where people are bringing outside techniques in and calling it Krav.  

I love the technique and use it frequently.  I learned it from Panantukan, although it is in many systems.  I agree that the arms don't need to be so tight.  It is a very good defense for rapid head punches. 

To make it Krav-like, the defender needs to immediately burst forward with a forearm to the opponent's throat or head. A Krav principle is to hit the attacker hard and frequent immediately after you are attacked.  It's a cool technique and works very well when your peripheral vision sees something coming at your head (like when people were knocking out random strangers a few years back.) Thanks for sharing the video.


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## Runs With Fire (May 15, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> I always love supporting my Krav brothers and sisters, but this particular techniques is not part of Imi Lichtenfeld's Krav Maga system (unless someone from one of the Big Four organisations added it.)  Not that it matters regarding the effectiveness of the technique, but there is a big push in the Krav community to keep it from becoming a system where people are bringing outside techniques in and calling it Krav.
> 
> I love the technique and use it frequently.  I learned it from Panantukan, although it is in many systems.  I agree that the arms don't need to be so tight.  It is a very good defense for rapid head punches.
> 
> To make it Krav-like, the defender needs to immediately burst forward with a forearm to the opponent's throat or head. A Krav principle is to hit the attacker hard and frequent immediately after you are attacked.  It's a cool technique and works very well when your peripheral vision sees something coming at your head (like when people were knocking out random strangers a few years back.) Thanks for sharing the video.


It's always done with a forward lunge/step (bursting) and go right into striking and arm /neck controll.  I like an elbow following with a forearm strike to neck,  knee sternum, knee head, throw on ground.  Mabye re stomp the groin. 
I understand the desire to keep the Krav name brand respectable in the MA community, but I really don't get into style policing, lineage, or retaining the original purity.  But since I use the name Krav, I keep it recognizable as Krav.  Not boxing, MMA, or selfe defense , using all the same principles as brand name Krav, and most of the techniques.  There are a few things we don't do, and a few additional things we do. I have know idea where the curriculem picked up this one though.


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## Kababayan (May 15, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> It's always done with a forward lunge/step (bursting) and go right into striking and arm /neck controll.  I like an elbow following with a forearm strike to neck,  knee sternum, knee head, throw on ground.  Mabye re stomp the groin.
> I understand the desire to keep the Krav name brand respectable in the MA community, but I really don't get into style policing, lineage, or retaining the original purity.  But since I use the name Krav, I keep it recognizable as Krav.  Not boxing, MMA, or selfe defense , using all the same principles as brand name Krav, and most of the techniques.  There are a few things we don't do, and a few additional things we do. I have know idea where the curriculem picked up this one though.



I like the technique a lot and think it should be one of those universal techniques that are taught in most systems.


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## drop bear (May 15, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> I always love supporting my Krav brothers and sisters, but this particular techniques is not part of Imi Lichtenfeld's Krav Maga system (unless someone from one of the Big Four organisations added it.)  Not that it matters regarding the effectiveness of the technique, but there is a big push in the Krav community to keep it from becoming a system where people are bringing outside techniques in and calling it Krav.
> 
> I love the technique and use it frequently.  I learned it from Panantukan, although it is in many systems.  I agree that the arms don't need to be so tight.  It is a very good defense for rapid head punches.
> 
> To make it Krav-like, the defender needs to immediately burst forward with a forearm to the opponent's throat or head. A Krav principle is to hit the attacker hard and frequent immediately after you are attacked.  It's a cool technique and works very well when your peripheral vision sees something coming at your head (like when people were knocking out random strangers a few years back.) Thanks for sharing the video.



It is really hard to move forward through punches if you have been caught out though.

By the way I think doing that if you duck your head at all you have probably just committed suicide(I haven't really played with it though.)

I would change levels. Head up.


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## drop bear (May 15, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> It's always done with a forward lunge/step (bursting) and go right into striking and arm /neck controll.  I like an elbow following with a forearm strike to neck,  knee sternum, knee head, throw on ground.  Mabye re stomp the groin.
> I understand the desire to keep the Krav name brand respectable in the MA community, but I really don't get into style policing, lineage, or retaining the original purity.  But since I use the name Krav, I keep it recognizable as Krav.  Not boxing, MMA, or selfe defense , using all the same principles as brand name Krav, and most of the techniques.  There are a few things we don't do, and a few additional things we do. I have know idea where the curriculem picked up this one though.



A style progresses through the innovations of its practitioners. Not its founders.

You can't compare one guy who invented it to the thousands of guys who do it.


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## Runs With Fire (May 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> A style progresses through the innovations of its practitioners. Not its founders.
> 
> You can't compare one guy who invented it to the thousands of guys who do it.


Getting caught up in style is why I quit Tang Soo Do.  It was practical at first but the longer I went, the more "karate crap" there was.  I was told that a black belt had certain expectations from the TSD, karate  crowd to be seen as legitamate.    When working through a rather silly black belt kata, I asked a master " if this isn't that effective a way to drill our combat principles, why not do just do a better drill?"  He said "it's just one of those things we do for sake of tradition" .  So I quit.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 16, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> I always love supporting my Krav brothers and sisters, but this particular techniques is not part of Imi Lichtenfeld's Krav Maga system (unless someone from one of the Big Four organisations added it.)  Not that it matters regarding the effectiveness of the technique, but there is a big push in the Krav community to keep it from becoming a system where people are bringing outside techniques in and calling it Krav.
> 
> I love the technique and use it frequently.  I learned it from Panantukan, although it is in many systems.  I agree that the arms don't need to be so tight.  It is a very good defense for rapid head punches.
> 
> To make it Krav-like, the defender needs to immediately burst forward with a forearm to the opponent's throat or head. A Krav principle is to hit the attacker hard and frequent immediately after you are attacked.  It's a cool technique and works very well when your peripheral vision sees something coming at your head (like when people were knocking out random strangers a few years back.) Thanks for sharing the video.


I think it’s a dangerous point in any art/system when proponents try to keep out “outside” techniques.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 16, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> selfe defense


I just have to say, this typo sent my brain off to a daydream of a MA school in a very upscale shopping center, marketing Selfe Defense right next to the Sandwich Shoppe.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> It is really hard to move forward through punches if you have been caught out though.
> 
> By the way I think doing that if you duck your head at all you have probably just committed suicide(I haven't really played with it though.)
> 
> I would change levels. Head up.


Can you clarify your last two paragraphs? Either they are unclear or I need more coffee. Maybe both.


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## Dirty Dog (May 16, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I just have to say, this typo sent my brain off to a daydream of a MA school in a very upscale shopping center, marketing Selfe Defense right next to the Sandwich Shoppe.



Or selfie defense... that would be a system developed around the use of a selfie stick as a weapon.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 16, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Or selfie defense... that would be a system developed around the use of a selfie stick as a weapon.


Or just defense against getting caught in someone else’s selfie.


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## Runs With Fire (May 16, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I just have to say, this typo sent my brain off to a daydream of a MA school in a very upscale shopping center, marketing Selfe Defense right next to the Sandwich Shoppe.


Master Ken did his selfie defense video.  This darned new phone has the buttons too close for my fingers.


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## Runs With Fire (May 16, 2018)

On the morning news today,  a man fought off a gunman over his $1700 designer handbag.  SELFE DEFENSE, training for sophisticated society.


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## punisher73 (May 16, 2018)

Couple of random thoughts, 

First KM is now trying to keep out "outside techniques" so people don't keep adding and calling it KM?  That's just proprietary BS, Imi's KM when he founded it looks not a whole lot like what is called KM now because of adding techniques.  That was kind of the whole point of KM is that if it works and is effective and fits with the criteria than it IS krav maga.  This is someone just trying to sell their version and controlling others.  

Second, I keep seeing people talking about seeing things in their peripheral vision in a self-defense situation.  Always a red flag for me unless there is further explanation because once the adrenaline hits that is the first to go.  It is why people get hit with shots that looked telegraphed to a bystander but the person never saw it coming from that angle.

Lastly, I think this is one of those defenses that is great against an untrained person just throwing punches in a haphazard headhunting manner like many streetfights.  I don't see this as effective on someone who can keep range and change up the angles of the punches and targets.  it leaves the body wide open (which is also one of the complaints on the Crazy Monkey Defense).  Again, videos aren't always clear but I keep thinking about an uppercut right up the middle and you wouldn't see it coming.


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## Kababayan (May 16, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> On the morning news today,  a man fought off a gunman over his $1700 designer handbag.  SELFE DEFENSE, training for sophisticated society.



This morning a bookcase almost fell on me.  I was alright because I practice SHELF DEFENSE.


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## Kababayan (May 16, 2018)

I want to clarify a few things before I get a reputation of being the "Krav police".  First of all, my core art for many years was Kempo.  We steal pretty much everybody's techniques and call it our own, so I am all for adding techniques to a martial artists bag of tricks.  The reason that I bring up when a technique is or isn't part of the Krav system is because there is a strong push in the Krav world to keep the system based on the original philosophies and framework.    @punisher73 's explanation as to why was spot on (I hope you don't mind me bringing you into this conversation.)  For years Darren Levine, John Whitman, and other early generation kravists have been working on keeping the term "Krav Maga" from becoming a generic term like "Karate".  When people see the term karate, a common follow-up question would be, "what _kind_ of karate?" Even my dojo sign advertised "Karate" when I really taught a hybrid blend of martial arts. Kravists with direct ties to Imi don't want that to happen to Krav Maga.  Because Krav is a relatively new system, it is easier to see what is and isn't based on the original Krav principles.  In fifty years or so, that will probably change.  It's no secret that there are a lot of people taking some Krav courses and then opening up their own version of Krav.  I think @Runs With Fire coined the phrase "crapmaga" (apologies if it wasn't you.) The term fits because if a person walks into a Krav school, he or she should expect that they are getting the core Krav Maga system. Fifty years from now, the system will probably be so embedded with individual techniques and principles that there will be differentiated Krav Maga systems (see Commando Krav Maga.) 

For the record IKMA has been adding techniques to their Krav Maga curriculum for years in an attempt to update Krav's grappling foundation, but the added techniques still follow Krav principles.  Imi gave his blessing for his instructors to add techniques to the Krav system.  I think the issue is that some newer generation students are adding techniques that don't follow Krav intended principles.  In Kempo, we did that all the time (ceiling techniques).  The core Krav organizations are trying to limit that.


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## Runs With Fire (May 16, 2018)

Sounds right.   I know a school that was going to take on our program, but decided it wouldn't work.  One of the head instructors basically just took their wonan's self defense class, upped the intensity, added fittnes and some hammer fist drills.  Calls it Krav Maga.  It's not just the same recipie with some different seasoning, it's a completely different recipie.  And it's quite sloppy (in a bad way, unlike a sloppy joe).  Personally, I am just more concerned with what training I am directly involved with.


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## JowGaWolf (May 16, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> A brief explanation of what showed up in the self defense thread.



What without sound so some of these comments may be out of context.

I don't like it. Field of vision is greatly reduced. Head is covered but not the face.  You won't see the upper cut until it was too late.  The head is covered but there is tone of other stuff that's not covered.  

In the video.  One arm is locking down the other arm,  If you are busy trying to maintain that guard then you aren't thinking about attacking me.  Someone who takes angle on that guard will make the defender suffer.

Hands are busy grappling yourself. when they should be seeking the opponent.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> - Field of vision is greatly reduced.
> - Head is covered but not the face.
> - You won't see the upper cut until it was too late.
> - The head is covered but there is tone of other stuff that's not covered.
> ...


All your addressing here are valid. IMO, it's better to put your fists as closer to your opponent's head instead of next to your own head. There are many benefits for that.


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## drop bear (May 16, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> This morning a bookcase almost fell on me.  I was alright because I practice SHELF DEFENSE.



When I worked pubs there was a bit of MILF defence


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## drop bear (May 16, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Can you clarify your last two paragraphs? Either they are unclear or I need more coffee. Maybe both.



If you duck your head you will get dragged down eat knees and probably get guillotined.

In the video. Guy ducks his head. 

If you see a double leg counter to punches. The head is up to prevent that. But the whole body is dropped to get under the flurry of punches.

So I would split the difference. Change levels, rely on the cover to do its job and probably hit them somewhere in the chest, snatch an underhook or something. Mabye just pop them back with the cover and left hook them.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> If you see a double leg counter to punches. The head is up to prevent that.


If your head is

- up, your opponent can push your forehead back and apply pressure on your neck.
- down, your opponent can push the back of your neck down, or apply reverse head lock on you.

When you apply double legs, there is no perfect head position. If both of your hands try to grab your opponent's legs, you don't have extra hand to protect your head. To assume that your hands are fast enough to grab on your opponent's legs, but your opponent's hands are not fast enough to reach to your head is not realistic.


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## Runs With Fire (May 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> If you duck your head you will get dragged down eat knees and probably get guillotined.
> 
> In the video. Guy ducks his head.
> 
> ...


Yeah, makes sense.  I was taught to duck a bit, but I see what you are saying.  I seem to learn a little somthing every time I make a video.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> Yeah, makes sense.  I was taught to duck a bit, but I see what you are saying.


When you duck, if you push your opponent's elbow joint away from you, you will be safe. Unfortunately, when you use the turtle guard, since both of your arms are used to protect your head, you don't have an extra hand to do that.

When you use both of your arms to protect your head, you will lose some counter ability. IMO, you should interrupt your opponent's attack farther away from your head. One simple example, if you can push on your opponent's right shoulder, his right punch cannot punch out. In order to do so, you have to move your hand closer to your opponent's head.


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## drop bear (May 16, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> Yeah, makes sense.  I was taught to duck a bit, but I see what you are saying.  I seem to learn a little somthing every time I make a video.



Yeah. I think it depends what you are used to defending. So someone puts some gloves on and you turtle and enter. Fine its going to work. But if they start cranking that head you could very easily get nose dived in to the dirt.

And this lean drag the head down is a very primal response. That is how people get the old guilotine kneed in the head in a street fight.

Anyway. These are level change concepts for double legs. But they should be almost interchangeable for turtle.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 17, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. I think it depends what you are used to defending. So someone puts some gloves on and you turtle and enter. Fine its going to work. But if they start cranking that head you could very easily get nose dived in to the dirt.
> 
> And this lean drag the head down is a very primal response. That is how people get the old guilotine kneed in the head in a street fight.
> 
> Anyway. These are level change concepts for double legs. But they should be almost interchangeable for turtle.


I wish I’d trained level changes more and better when my knees were only mildly crappy. I’ve been working on them more now, but can’t do much in one session. I’m afraid my level changes are and might always be weak.


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## drop bear (May 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I wish I’d trained level changes more and better when my knees were only mildly crappy. I’ve been working on them more now, but can’t do much in one session. I’m afraid my level changes are and might always be weak.



Yeah I don't know. A lot of that good posture needs to be trained. There are quite often flexibility issues that then put strain on the joints. And that takes a wile to go away.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 17, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah I don't know. A lot of that good posture needs to be trained. There are quite often flexibility issues that then put strain on the joints. And that takes a wile to go away.


It's harder to train the posture than it would have been back then. Now, just using my knees to get reliably low is the problem with training - the knees only take so much of it. I wish I'd put the time into it ten or twenty years ago so I had the skill already built - less work to maintain than to create. I've been trying to leech some postures and movements from the level changes in grappling techniques and recombine them (they don't really always match up to what you'd use against a good striker) - trying to find things I've already built and leverage them to new uses.

Alright, enough knee-grumbling. I'm grouchy this morning from my late flight. More coffee.


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## Runs With Fire (May 18, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. I think it depends what you are used to defending. So someone puts some gloves on and you turtle and enter. Fine its going to work. But if they start cranking that head you could very easily get nose dived in to the dirt.
> 
> And this lean drag the head down is a very primal response. That is how people get the old guilotine kneed in the head in a street fight.
> 
> Anyway. These are level change concepts for double legs. But they should be almost interchangeable for turtle.


It does seam like a stand up boxing  cover


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## _Simon_ (May 19, 2018)

The best turtle defense I've found has gotta be this,







And if you ever have questions I think these guys know a thing or two about it


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I wish I’d trained level changes more and better when my knees were only mildly crappy. I’ve been working on them more now, but can’t do much in one session. I’m afraid my level changes are and might always be weak.


If I want to apply double legs, I can just separate my opponent's arms from top and down. I can then reach to his legs (while both of my opponent's arms are outside of my arms). Since I can guide my opponent's arms away from my entering path, his arms won't give me trouble.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 19, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If I want to apply double legs, I can just separate my opponent's arms from top and down. I can then reach to his legs (while both of my opponent's arms are outside of my arms). Since I can guide my opponent's arms away from my entering path, his arms won't give me trouble.


The entry isn't my limitation - it's the actual change of level and the knee bend and stress it requires. I can only do so much of that in a session without paying for a few days.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The entry isn't my limitation - it's the actual change of level and the knee bend and stress it requires. I can only do so much of that in a session without paying for a few days.


I don't train any throw that require to drop knee on the ground. But I don't mind to drop my knee on my opponent's groin (or body) when he is on the ground.

My teacher used to say "What kind of fighter will you call yourself if you drop your knee in front of your opponent?"


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## Gerry Seymour (May 20, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't train any throw that require to drop knee on the ground. But I don't mind to drop my knee on my opponent's groin (or body) when he is on the ground.
> 
> My teacher used to say "What kind of fighter will you call yourself if you drop your knee in front of your opponent?"


It's not dropping the knee to the ground, it's bending it anywhere near 90 degrees (most days, much beyond 45 degrees). Doing that repeatedly irritates my knees a lot.


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## Runs With Fire (May 21, 2018)

Malos1979 said:


> Are you doing Keysi or Defencelab? I knew your teacher ahd a questionable Krav Maga background, hell even his teacher has.
> 
> This cover is so bad in so many ways. What about your sight, you lose it, what about your body? A couple punches to your body would make you cry, even you know how hard a kick can be to the body(because of your TSD background).


It works for what it is.  It has some good potential, which either you don't see, or you don't like.  That's fine.  I don't like the machinegun takedown, I think it's silly.  That's fine too.


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## Runs With Fire (May 21, 2018)

drop bear said:


> If you duck your head you will get dragged down eat knees and probably get guillotined.
> 
> In the video. Guy ducks his head.
> 
> ...


Could you please explain "double leg counter" or the "double legs" that keeps getting mentioned?  Thanks.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 21, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> Could you please explain "double leg counter" or the "double legs" that keeps getting mentioned?  Thanks.


It's a standard double-leg takedown (found in most grappling arts that go to the ground, and seen a lot in MMA). Here's an example:


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## JowGaWolf (May 21, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All your addressing here are valid. IMO, it's better to put your fists as closer to your opponent's head instead of next to your own head. There are many benefits for that.


This how I'm faster than my opponent.  Travel shorter distance.


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## JowGaWolf (May 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I wish I’d trained level changes more and better when my knees were only mildly crappy. I’ve been working on them more now, but can’t do much in one session. I’m afraid my level changes are and might always be weak.


How low are you trying to go?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 21, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> How low are you trying to go?


It doesn't take much. Going from a flexible knee to a change in levels (depending upon the change) while moving takes at least one leg into the 45-90 degree range. If I start entirely upright (not really a fighting stance), I can get a useful change without going into that range, but that's about it. Just standing up to verify my own information, I got to listen to the lovely crunching sounds from my right knee (the rear leg in my quick test). I don't get to hear that when doing drills or sparring - might be time to go see the doc again.


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## JowGaWolf (May 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's not dropping the knee to the ground, it's bending it anywhere near 90 degrees (most days, much beyond 45 degrees). Doing that repeatedly irritates my knees a lot.


45 degrees is all you need. A wider stance will help to drop you a little lower.  90 degrees is extremely difficult and it burns leg endurance like jet fuel.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 21, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> 45 degrees is all you need. A wider stance will help to drop you a little lower.  90 degrees is extremely difficult and it burns leg endurance like jet fuel.


I'll go back and see if I can figure a way to push my basic fighting stances wider without losing options. I've already done that in my throwing stances, to the point that I have to remind students to follow what I teach, and not my accommodations.

The problem starts somewhere around 45 degrees. For large changes in levels (slipping a strike from someone shorter, for instance) I'll end up beyond 45 degrees. Part of that is because of the distances I use when blending - at close distance, wider stances limit options too much. It's just something I've learned to work around where I can, but it limits how much time I can spend on some drills.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> change in levels .


What do you mean "level change"? Are you talking about shoot into a single leg or double legs? 

It doesn't make sense for a

- shorter person to attack a taller person's head. A shorter person should attack the leg.
- taller person to attack a shorter person's leg. A taller person should attack the head.


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## JowGaWolf (May 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'll go back and see if I can figure a way to push my basic fighting stances wider without losing options. I've already done that in my throwing stances, to the point that I have to remind students to follow what I teach, and not my accommodations.
> 
> The problem starts somewhere around 45 degrees. For large changes in levels (slipping a strike from someone shorter, for instance) I'll end up beyond 45 degrees. Part of that is because of the distances I use when blending - at close distance, wider stances limit options too much. It's just something I've learned to work around where I can, but it limits how much time I can spend on some drills.


Yep close quarters would change that.  What I described is more of an intermediate to long distant range used to slow your opponent's advance or to cause confusion.  closer ranges often require a deeper bend.  In the context of fighting in a closer range, there may be few options.


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## drop bear (May 21, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you mean "level change"? Are you talking about shoot into a single leg or double legs?
> 
> It doesn't make sense for a
> 
> ...



You need more than one place to attack.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 21, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you mean "level change"? Are you talking about shoot into a single leg or double legs?
> 
> It doesn't make sense for a
> 
> ...


Actually, it does make sense for a taller person to attack legs, if they are better at doing so than the shorter person is at defending it. But that's beside the point, so to your question. The level changes I'm talking about are what you see boxers do when they slip a punch. As they move, they drop their head lower (largely by bending knees and some collapse of the abdomen) to take the target off the plane of the strike. It's also part of the entering move of single-leg and double-leg in most western systems, if the entry comes from standing. You drop down low for the entry, to get under their arms and body, and hopefully outrun a sprawl before it gets to your back.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's also part of the entering move of single-leg and double-leg in most western systems, if the entry comes from standing. You drop down low for the entry, to get under their arms and body, and hopefully outrun a sprawl before it gets to your back.


In this clip, he uses "inner hook" to take his opponent down 7 times. He didn't use any "level change". The 1st time at 0.20.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 22, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In this clip, he uses "inner hook" to take his opponent down 7 times. He didn't use any "level change". The 1st time at 0.20.


I'm not sure how that relates to my post, John. What did I miss?


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## Runs With Fire (May 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's a standard double-leg takedown (found in most grappling arts that go to the ground, and seen a lot in MMA). Here's an example:


Thanks for the clarification.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure how that relates to my post, John. What did I miss?


In another post, you talked about level change. There are many throws that also work well in striking environment without requiring "level change". Any throw that start from a clinch, it won't require level change. For a tall person to drop low is against his body type. Old Chinese wrestling saying said, "If you are tall, attack your opponent's head. If you are short, attack your opponent's leg."


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## Gerry Seymour (May 22, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another post, you talked about level change. There are many throws that also work well in striking environment without requiring "level change". Any throw that start from a clinch, it won't require level change. For a tall person to drop low is against his body type. Old Chinese wrestling saying said, "If you are tall, attack your opponent's head. If you are short, attack your opponent's leg."


Yes, I know many throws that don't require much level change. I also know a lot of throws (like hip throw) that only don't require a level change if your opponent obligingly stays fairly upright. And there's an area of throws and takedowns I didn't train much, which do depend upon level change, as do some very nice slipping and evasion techniques. I mostly wish I had trained more in the latter.


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## wab25 (May 22, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> For a tall person to drop low is against his body type. Old Chinese wrestling saying said, "If you are tall, attack your opponent's head. If you are short, attack your opponent's leg."


If you are tall... and the other guy tries to punch your head... if you level change, and drop low, his entire body is open for any attack you want, as he is reaching for your head still. Seems useful and effective to me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 22, 2018)

wab25 said:


> If you are tall... and the other guy tries to punch your head... if you level change, and drop low, his entire body is open for any attack you want, as he is reaching for your head still. Seems useful and effective to me.


In wrestling, it's better to be on top than to be on the bottom. The person on top can use his body weigh to press down on the person below.

Every time you drop low, you will give your opponent's a chance to crash you from top.







The reverse head lock can be a finish move.


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## wab25 (May 22, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Every time you drop low, you will give your opponent's a chance to crash you from top.



Here is some video of the taller guy, changing levels and taking down the shorter guy from below. In some, he is going under the the other guys head punch. In others, he feints the guy to believe the attack is to the head, then drops under.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 22, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Here is some video of the taller guy, changing levels and taking down the shorter guy from below.


We can only discuss "risk level" in general. We can not discuss individual case.

Here are examples that your level change can put yourself in bad spot. There are many throws that won't put yourself in such bad spot. In other words, there are other throws that are less risky.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 22, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We can only discuss "risk level" in general. We can not discuss individual case.
> 
> Here are examples that your level change can put yourself in bad spot. There are many throws that won't put yourself in such bad spot. In other words, there are other throws that are less risky.


And yet, against people trained to defend against takedowns, going low is the most reliable takedown method in MMA. On paper, they seem more risky, but when executed at the right moment (like any technique, they require that), they are more effective than risky.


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## wab25 (May 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here are examples that your level change can put yourself in bad spot. There are many throws that won't put yourself in such bad spot. In other words, there are other throws that are less risky.


So, are they doing it wrong in MMA? In this thread and the other thread, you don't like double leg or single leg take downs, as they do not leave your hands free to protect your head. You don't like judo style hip throws, because the other guy has a free hand. Now you don't like level changing as it is risky to be on the bottom. Yet these moves, especially the level change into the double and single leg take downs, have been proven to be very successful. (see the stats I posted in the other thread, of 800 fights containing 2000 take downs ) Are they really doing it wrong? If what they are doing is wrong, why is it working so much?


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## hoshin1600 (May 23, 2018)

as much as i like to ponder the significance of theoretical quandaries,,,,sometimes theory is BS.  because its not so much a tested theory and more of an fantasy world.
anyone who has trained with a proficient MMA or BJJ guy will tell you, with a good set up how fast you land on your butt or back.  if you havnt worked it a lot, it happens so quick the brain does not have time to register what is going on.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 23, 2018)

wab25 said:


> So, are they doing it wrong in MMA? In this thread and the other thread, you don't like double leg or single leg take downs, as they do not leave your hands free to protect your head. You don't like judo style hip throws, because the other guy has a free hand. Now you don't like level changing as it is risky to be on the bottom. Yet these moves, especially the level change into the double and single leg take downs, have been proven to be very successful. (see the stats I posted in the other thread, of 800 fights containing 2000 take downs ) Are they really doing it wrong? If what they are doing is wrong, why is it working so much?


If you can control your opponent's arms when you take him down, you will have less chance to be punched. By using this guideline, some throws have higher risk than others.

1. Under hook, over hook - you control both of your opponent's arms.
2. Head lock, hip throw - you control one of your opponent's arms.
3. Bear hug, single leg, double legs - both of your opponent's arms are free.

As for the risky factor, 3 > 2 > 1.

When you use both arms to deal with both of your opponent's arm, you will need to use "leg skill" (such as cut, hook, scoop, break, block, bite, lift, spring, twist, ...). IMO, since most MMA fighters have to train striking, take down, and ground game, they may not have enough time to develop their leg skill. It's very common that they choose take downs that don't require leg skill.

The head lock diagonal cut throw will have less chance to be punched compare to double legs. It requires to use the leg skill "cut".


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## wab25 (May 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you use both arms to deal with both of your opponent's arm, you will need to use "leg skill" (such as cut, hook, scoop, break, block, bite, lift, spring, twist, ...). IMO, since most MMA fighters have to train striking, take down, and ground game,* they may not have enough time to develop their leg skill. It's very common that they choose take downs that don't require leg skill.*
> 
> The head lock diagonal cut throw will have less chance to be punched compare to double legs. It requires to use the leg skill "cut".


I am having a hard time trying to think of a UFC, Bellator, Strikeforce or Pride fighter that *does not* have the skill required for that diagonal cut throw.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 23, 2018)

wab25 said:


> I am having a hard time trying to think of a UFC, Bellator, Strikeforce or Pride fighter that *does not* have the skill required for that diagonal cut throw.


I truly don't know why this throw is not popular in UFC. May be someone can tell me.


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## drop bear (May 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I truly don't know why this throw is not popular in UFC. May be someone can tell me.



because people move around.

Anyway. This is dan kelly who is basically mr judo for MMA.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 24, 2018)

drop bear said:


> because people move around.


If you can get your opponent into a clinch, he will not be able to move around.

I agree to turn your back into your opponent may not be a good idea. But face to face throws don't have such issue.

You don't see single leg and double legs used in Sanda and Chinese wrestling. Since single leg and double legs require your legs to be so close to the ground, if your opponent puts a bit pressure on top of you, you will have 1 hand and 1 knee (or 2 knees, or 2 hands) on the ground. In Sanda and Chinese wrestling, the fight will stop and the other person will get 2 points (for any 2 points besides your feet touch the ground).


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 24, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> anyone who has trained with a proficient MMA or BJJ guy will tell you, with a good set up how fast you land on your butt or back.  if you havnt worked it a lot, it happens so quick the brain does not have time to register what is going on.


I still remember in 1983 Columbus Ohio Chinese wrestling tournament. During the championship fight, my opponent was a wrestler. He attacked me with single leg twice and I let him to kiss the dirt twice. Both rounds lasted for only 7 seconds. That was the easiest 2 rounds that I ever had in my tournament experience. On the wrestling mat, my downward pulling counter against single leg have very high successful rate. Since 1982, nobody has ever used single leg to take me down yet.

Here is an example to use downward pulling against single leg (1933 in the 5th National Kuo Shu Tournament, Nanking, China).


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## wab25 (May 24, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You don't see single leg and double legs used in Sanda and Chinese wrestling. Since single leg and double legs require your legs to be so close to the ground, if your opponent puts a bit pressure on top of you, you will have 1 hand and 1 knee (or 2 knees, or 2 hands) on the ground. *In Sanda and Chinese wrestling, the fight will stop and the other person will get 2 points* (for any 2 points besides your feet touch the ground).


Here we go. I bolded the part in your quote. This explains the differences. *The rules*. The rules determine what techniques are more effective. Your diagonal cut throw, is extremely ineffective... in boxing. You will be warned, lose points and disqualified for using it. In Judo, Judo throws are highly effective. Double and single leg take downs are not, as they are illegal now. In Chinese wrestling, if you knee or hand touches the ground, you lose 2 points and action stops. This will make double and single leg take downs less effective and much higher risk... in Chinese wrestling. Your diagonal cut, will be a higher percentage... in Chinese wrestling. 

However, the rules are different in MMA. You do not lose 2 points and the action does not stop when your knee or hand hits the ground. In these rules, double and single leg take downs are very effective. The risks and dangers of attempting double and single leg take downs are present, as you state... but they still are quite effective. The stats show that your diagonal cut throw is used, and does work in MMA, however double and single leg take downs work and are used successfully a lot more. 



Kung Fu Wang said:


> I truly don't know why this throw is not popular in UFC. May be someone can tell me.


I will tell you. In UFC the rules are different than Chinese wrestling. The UFC does not penalize you for your knee hitting the mat, nor does it stop the action. Essentially, the rules of UFC do not add extra risk to attempting either the double, single leg take downs or the diagonal cut. The UFC rules favor and allow both. Under these rules, the double and single leg take downs are more effective.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 24, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can control your opponent's arms when you take him down, you will have less chance to be punched. By using this guideline, some throws have higher risk than others.
> 
> 1. Under hook, over hook - you control both of your opponent's arms.
> 2. Head lock, hip throw - you control one of your opponent's arms.
> ...


On paper, and in theory, it makes sense. But the evidence is that - even against elite strikers - good entry on a double-leg (no hands to protect head or control arms) rarely results in getting hit, and almost never in a significant hit. It usually results in the elite striker being on the ground quickly.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 24, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I truly don't know why this throw is not popular in UFC. May be someone can tell me.


I suspect the training to defend the Muay Thai clinch (and I suspect all serious MMA fighters train to defend that) would also counter this throw's entry.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 24, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can get your opponent into a clinch, he will not be able to move around.
> 
> I agree to turn your back into your opponent may not be a good idea. But face to face throws don't have such issue.
> 
> You don't see single leg and double legs used in Sanda and Chinese wrestling. Since single leg and double legs require your legs to be so close to the ground, if your opponent puts a bit pressure on top of you, you will have 1 hand and 1 knee (or 2 knees, or 2 hands) on the ground. In Sanda and Chinese wrestling, the fight will stop and the other person will get 2 points (for any 2 points besides your feet touch the ground).


That's an example of where rules in a competition make an otherwise useful technique too risky.


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## drop bear (May 24, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> On paper, and in theory, it makes sense. But the evidence is that - even against elite strikers - good entry on a double-leg (no hands to protect head or control arms) rarely results in getting hit, and almost never in a significant hit. It usually results in the elite striker being on the ground quickly.



It doesn't make sense in theory. You need your hips to strike. Which you no longer have.

You also need a link to the ground to strike. And you don't have that either.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 24, 2018)

drop bear said:


> It doesn't make sense in theory. You need your hips to strike. Which you no longer have.
> 
> You also need a link to the ground to strike. And you don't have that either.


The "in theory" version tends to be unaware of the speed at which the transition happens - blocking hips and stealing the ground. I'm relatively slow at entering for things like that compared to a decent wrestler, and I'd bet my entry against my own strikes.

Now get that decent wrestler and put him in my place, and that entry is a dangerous weapon.


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