# Judo as a martial art



## bignick (Oct 28, 2005)

While I gather my thoughts on this topic, would anyone like to give reasons why they think judo is or is not a martial art.     Or perhaps we should establish a framework here, how do we define sport or martial art.  I'll get back to this thread probably later tonight...


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## arnisador (Oct 28, 2005)

I would say it's a martial art, at the coarse level. At a finer level, I'd say it's a martial sport, with boxing, savate, Olympic-style TKD, wrestiling, BJJ, Muay Thai, etc.

There's an emphasis on person-to-person competition, knowing the rules, etc. Very few techniques that violate the rules are taught. (I've studied Judo twice, at two colleges, and never was taught atemi, though it's allegedly in there.) Competition is, if not required to advance in rank, at least very helpful to do so.

I think Judo can be great for self-defense. I recommend it for such...along with boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai, and other martial sports.


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## ChineseKempoJerry (Oct 28, 2005)

I think this topic can really stir the pot 

I think it depends on what you take away from it. I believe that Judo (IMO) was developed to be a sport, but that it was derived from a very effective base. If one can understand where it came from, certain techniques can be learned for self defense. If one only sees the trees and not the forest then it is only a very physical and demanding sport. Nothing wrong with that either.

Boils down to personal goals and the depth in which you look at what is being taught to you.

Best Regards,

Jerry


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## JAMJTX (Oct 28, 2005)

Judo is a martial art that has a sporting aspect.  Or, you can also say that it is a martial sport that has a self-defense aspect.

It is quite obvious that Dr. Kano intended Judo to be a competitive sport and to be used to build character.  But he also taught self defense techniques.

I do know that many Japanese Police Departments rely heavily on Judo.  As I understand, Officers are generally required to train in either Judo or Aikido and some both.  Nick and I share lineage to a teacher who learned Judo from some high ranking Japanese police officials.  What is known as Taihojutsu includes some Judo.


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## bignick (Oct 29, 2005)

Ok, here we go:

This may be somewhat similar to my post in the taekwondo section, but only in the sense that it may be a long rant by someone who is not even close to being an expert in the area he is discussing...

I think JAMJTX covered what I wanted to say a lot more concisely than I would have. But that never stopped me from opening my mouth before so why stop now?

Unlike taekwondo, I believe Judo was meant to have a strong competitive aspect from the very beginning. Kano Sensei obviously thought it was very important to practice things like randori and was very influential in getting Judo into the Olympics. Therefore, to argue that Judo was a martial art never meant to be contested in a competitive arena is pretty stupid. 

A lot of times when people define Judo they will say that Kano Sensei removed all the "dangerous" techniques from jujutsu and formed judo. This is true to a certain extent, but this also meant the techniques that were dangerous for tori to perform as well. Kano Sensei developed a system, Kano Jujutsu, that allowed you to practice in a live situation, or compete without having to set your affairs in order and make sure your will was drawn up before you left for the match. This is probably why judo dominated so heavily during interschool matches as it was being promoted, because the students of judo most likely had a lot of more practice against a live opponent. Kano also wasn't afraid to adopt new ideas and methods of training. I've heard that kata guruma was added from western wrestling and that a lot of the ne-waza was added after some judoka were soundly trounced in a match because their groundfighting skills were not up to par. 

As for it being a sport, the definition that I have always for the word sport is a physical activity done for fun or diversion, that usually has no benefits other than the joy from participating in the sport, and maybe physical fitness. Obviously, quite a few judo clubs will fall under this definition. This is perfectly fine, there is nothing wrong with learning judo solely out of competitive desire, you'll see a lot of former high school or college wrestlers take it up after they get out of school for reasons like this. As long as you are not lied to about what you're getting or giving in this enviroment you're fine. But sport judo doesn't translate very well to self defense. The low type stance you see in wrestling and a lot of competive judo is fine when you are facing one opponent, but if you need to face more than one that type of body position is going to sacrifice mobility for stability and you won't be able to handle attacks from different directions very well, if at all. It's basically the exact opposite of modern taekwondo competition where they sacrifice stability for mobility.  Of course, many of the other aspects of competitive judo don't make sense outside of the context of competition rules as well.

As to judo being a martial art, there is no doubt in my mind that is. To address some of the issues that Arnisador rose, I think that they are very real problems that are found in a lot of competition oriented schools. It is also my belief that a college club is probably going to be more sport-oriented because of the fact that it's members are going to be young and competitive. 

When it comes to not teaching illegal techniques, atemi, needing to compete to advance, etc. I haven't seen any of this. Obviously, my opinions are colored by my experiences just as Arnisador's are. Who's right? I don't think either of us can really claim to have the broadest experience in this area. But, I have been taught many illegal techniques, and we practice them quite regularly, as in, almost every class. Things like banned throws (Daki-age, Kani Basami, etc), we also practice leg locks, pressure points, wrist locks like kote gaeshi, etc. We also do all the different types of control like ikkyo, nikkyo, etc. Not only is it taught, but some of the stuff, like pressure points for kuzushi or control, leg locks, etc we will allow in randori as long as it's stated before hand. 

As far as atemi being part of judo, to me there is no "allegdly" at all. Look at the kata, like the Goshin Jutsu kata. The beautiful thing about judo kata is that you don't have to imagine your attacker standing in front of you, they're there. And the techniques don't always always need to be practiced in kata form. A lot of nights we'll just take snippets from kata, like the Goshin Jutsu kata and do these techniques full out. Obviously, a school focused on competition won't focus or even teach atemi, because it serves no purpose in competition, and so people don't learn it. Then they can't teach it, and so on. You get a cycle of instructors and students with blind spots or gaps of knowledge, a lot like you see in taekwondo when it comes to anything other than kicking or punching. We also use striking to set up for kuzushi, or just as the entire technique itself, no need to throw somebody around if a quick strike will do the trick.

Promotions that require tournament experience. I'm sure they exist, but I've certianly never fulfilled them. One, my focus isn't on competition. Two, I'm a poor college student and can't afford competitions. I just recently recieved my brown belt and I've only been to one shiai, and it was almost three years ago. My buddy, who started training the same time I did just got his brown belt last night as well, in the same manner I did, and he's never competed. 

Again, a lot of this is going to depend on your school. My experiences have certainly been influenced by my instructors and their philosophies. I'd be willing to bet not to many judoka have seen their sensei breaking boards with a spinning hook kick. Or had their sensei block a strike, with what can only be called atemi, so hard it felt like your arm was going to fall off and a little voice in your head asked why the "Gentle Way" hurt so much. Or probably even thrown a kick at sensei and ended up on the ground in an ankle lock wanting to scream in pain. I have. Also, having been exposed, admittedly not all that much, to Zen Judo you realize that though it isn't common knowledge, there is more than just the Kodokan way of doing things. 

Well, again, I find myself writing a post that is entirely too long, entirely too late into the night and I think it's time to stop for now...


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## CrankyDragon (Oct 29, 2005)

I would have to say it depends on how the school teaches it.  Either way, its still a martial art.

The first being sport with competition.  The second is like how my hybrid school teaches it, as part of a self defense or fighting system.

Andrew


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 5, 2005)

Judo was born out of Jujutsu, Jujutsu is a martial art, and thus Judo is a martial art 

As a person who studied Jujutsu, when I see Judo person demonstrating Kodokan Goshin Jutsu and Kime no Kata, I understand very clearly that what I am seeing is Jujutsu techniques done under the name of Kodokan Judo.

Judo randori is pretty much a version of wrestling with Budo-gi on, but Judo Kata is, without a doubt, a form of Jujutsu.

I am confident to say that Judo is a modernized version of Jujutsu. It can be practiced as a sport, but it has all the ingredients of a martial art.


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