# Qigong and Taiji



## chi-ca (Nov 10, 2004)

I've been thinking of studying qigong in addition to taiji and am wondering how many of you have done this and if you think it's very helpful.  Did your taiji skills benefit from studying qigong or did you find that qigong is interesting but separate?


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## pete (Nov 10, 2004)

yes, your level of tai chi will improve through a qigong practice, and no it cannot be kept separate from tai chi... tai chi is based on taoist philosophy of a oneness with everything, so you really can't separate anything from your tai chi!

 that being said, there are many types of qigong (or ch'i kung), of which you should discuss with your tai chi instructor to find which may be best suited for you and complimentary with your particular style of tai chi.

pete


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## 7starmantis (Nov 14, 2004)

I've practiced both for quite a while now...they deffinitely lend themselves to each other well.

7sm


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## chi-ca (Nov 14, 2004)

Since I have never looked into qigong (other than reading books about it) I'm not sure what I should look for in a school/teacher. Is this usually taught in a large group? Do either of you have any suggestions for finding a reputable instructor or for things I should try to avoid?

Chi-ca


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## 7starmantis (Nov 15, 2004)

I really dont know what to tell you about that. We dont have a specific class, my sifu just teaches some of us who are really serious and getting more advanced. I would say look for the same things in an instructor that you would for tai chi. In fact, a good tai chi instructor might just also be a good qigong teacher as well.

7sm


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## East Winds (Nov 26, 2004)

Chi-Ca

Yes the others are quite right. The two cannot be separated. One aspect of Qigong that will certainly benefit your taiji, is that it introduces the concept of breathing. This can be a difficult subject when you first start Taiji. There are literaly hundreds of Qigong forms, both static and moving. One of the best is Zhan Zhuang (Jam Jong) or Standing Post, or the martial aspect of the exercise  I-Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan). Most Taiji teachers will incorporate some Qigong into their classes. Only rarely will you find a teacher only teaching Qigong.

Good luck with your search

regards


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 26, 2004)

Some good advice above. IMO particulary while a beginner, I prefer to both teach and learn in a one on one ( 3 - 6 absolute max ) capacity ( to see and correct each and every full movement or have each and every of my own seen and corrected. The extra attention pays off in application and hand, fist, foot position, posture and lyric correction that you'd likely be allowed to get away with when in a group. 

If you can't find an actual one one situation, it might be worth approaching an instructor you know offers qigong and speak to them about even a few hour sessions privately a week. Alot of practioners play early of a morning anyway, and usually don't mind the company.

If you're interested in qigong, I also recommend a google search and some reading. What country / state and area are you in and what sort of qigong are you after , or for what purpose??? Maybe someone can give you a recommendation or contact for a teacher or school.

Blooming Lotus


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## chi-ca (Nov 28, 2004)

..."One of the best is Zhan Zhuang (Jam Jong) or Standing Post, or the martial aspect of the exercise I-Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan)..."


Thanks East Winds,
I'm wondering what it is about Zhan Zhuang and I-Chuan that makes you prefer them over other forms of qigong?

Chi-ca


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## chi-ca (Nov 28, 2004)

Blooming Lotus,
I agree that a small class is beneficial and I feel very fortunate to have only a few other students in mine.  I live in the U.S., near Washington, DC, and Pete was nice enough to give me a few suggestions for teachers who hold qigong seminars in this area (though if anyone else knows of a regular class I'd be happy to hear about it).  You mentioned reading; can you recommend any particularly good books?
Chi-ca


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## still learning (Nov 28, 2004)

Hello, I like Qiqong for what is does. Only way to know is try it. Each person will form their own opinon. There are so many different kinds of Tai chi as there is Chi' Kung'......Aloha


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 28, 2004)

chi-ca said:
			
		

> Blooming Lotus,
> I agree that a small class is beneficial and I feel very fortunate to have only a few other students in mine. I live in the U.S., near Washington, DC, and Pete was nice enough to give me a few suggestions for teachers who hold qigong seminars in this area (though if anyone else knows of a regular class I'd be happy to hear about it). You mentioned reading; can you recommend any particularly good books?
> Chi-ca


meiwenti. No problem. www.martialartsmart.com has some great titles and you can order a catalogue sent to your email account, or if you get hold of a copy kungfu taichi magazine, they also have a huge list of extremely well reputed everything including some great books. ( check out their shaolin qigong masters range !! a qigong title for every purpose  ) . Amazon ( www.amazon.com ) is another good one but there are far too many titles to list. If you find something that catches your interest, please feel free to see if anyone else here has read or heard of it. Good books etc, usually have a habit of some rep or other. 


What about taijis chi moving , storing and cultivation theories ?? Have you read much about that?? And a look at some meridian charts wouldn't hurt either. In fact there's another thread around here that I posted a link to some charts etc on. Maybe thread called "pressure points ......." or chin na??? Can only serve your art better so feel free to browse around and get back to us if you have any questions.

Cheers 

Blooming Lotus

btw : to try it, and understand what  it is you're doing , aren't always the same thing.   A little reading is a great thing.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 29, 2004)

Okay, so I picked up a copy of kungfu taichi magazine today and there is a title I can give you that is likely really well suited to your question.  It's called " qigong empower ment " and it's written by Master Shou-Yu  Liang and Wen-Ching wu.  It costs $34.95  US$ and isa available at www.martialartsmart.com



It's a daoist buddhist wushu energy cultivation publication and should also a medical guide.  Hope it helps. 



Anyway, in the same magazine for whoever had the querie on how taiji related to bagua or even xingyi for that matter ( and pls be kind in your response because this a looong quote ) here's a relevant and little better literated description in an extract from "the circle of 8 " By bagua master He Jing-Han ( contact @   baguaquan@giga.net.tw  )


" Master He Jing-Han is a disciple of  bagua grandmaster Gong Bao-Zhai, a direct descendant of the lineage of baguas founder, Dong HAi Chun ( approx 1813 - 1882). .........  Bagua is a prominent internal style, akin to taichi and xingyi.  It is based on a taoist cosmological system involving eight trigrams or bagau that revolve around the yin yang.  Accordingly bagua is know for its circular movements.

Here in the west, bagua  seems to be riding the coattails of taichi, despite being a completely different entree.  Like any new ASian import, most bagua served up in the States has been watered down to suit the American palette.  All too often here, bagua is made so bland as to appear like taichi done in circles.  But as more westerners develop a taste for it, the true flavour of bagua begins to emerge.  Aythentic traditional bagua is a respected delicay for a select few connoissuers who can distinguish  its subtleties.

" I first started learning the yang style TaiChi 108 form.  After I studied it for about 6 yrs, I hit a plateau.  I stopped improving.  People were really into push hands then.  Later, I started  learning xingyi from Grandmaster Chen Tian-Yi and bagua from Grandmaster Gong Bao-Zhai.  During my twenty yr tutelage in bagua, I stopped practicing tai chi .  After I had a good grasp of bagua, I came back to tai chi and my tai chi was  greatly improved."

" Now I understand why.  In chinese martial arts, taichi is the highest form of expression.  It's not your shape or outside appearance ( xing), it's your mind's expression ( yi).  If you learn tai chi without your xing being at a high level, your body can't follow your yi.  You won't be able to do tai chi well."

" In old days, tai chi masters would teach their students the basic movements of longfist.  This is to prepare the body to have, as they say, 'loose tendons and hard bones(  song  jin da gu).  Only after you have a good foundation can you start tai chi practice.  It's like learning Chinese calligraphy.  If you learn  cursive characters  ( tsao shu) then you must first learn cuneiform characters ( kai shu).  You must learn how to do a basic drawing or sketch before you can do an abstract painting.

"In appearancew, tai chi and bagua look completely different, but the core concepts are actually very similar.  in bagua, you learn to twist and compress  your body to its smallest form.  Tai chi is wide, open and soft.  Their appearances asre opposite, like yin and yang, but many of their pricipals are parallel"

( Which when I personally talk similarities in styles, forms, stances, etc is what I am referring to )

" The difference between martial arts systems depends on how you use your bosy.  Most systems move forward and  backward while bagua is circular.  There is twisting energy in bagua, so naturally you walk in a circle.  Many people use tai chi movements to practice bagua - that's not correct.  True practice of a particular art depends on the correct control of your body movements according to requirements of the art."

"Xingyi also uses twisting movements, however, you only move in a c straight line, not in a circle.  "

East Wind, and others, 

There is more to the article and it can be found in the nov/dec issue of kungfu magazine at www.martialartsmart.com or any good newstand.  Typically great edition, so check it out.

cheers

Blooming Lotus


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 29, 2004)

Okay, so I picked up a copy of kungfu taichi magazine today and there is a title I can give you that is likely really well suited to your question. It's called " qigong empower ment " and it's written by Master Shou-Yu Liang and Wen-Ching wu. It costs $34.95 US$ and isa available at www.martialartsmart.com



It's a daoist buddhist wushu energy cultivation publication and should also a medical guide. Hope it helps. 



Anyway, in the same magazine for whoever had the querie on how taiji related to bagua or even xingyi for that matter ( and pls be kind in your response because this a looong quote ) here's a relevant and little better literated description in an extract from "the circle of 8 " By bagua master He Jing-Han ( contact @ baguaquan@giga.net.tw )


" Master He Jing-Han is a disciple of bagua grandmaster Gong Bao-Zhai, a direct descendant of the lineage of baguas founder, Dong HAi Chun ( approx 1813 - 1882). ......... Bagua is a prominent internal style, akin to taichi and xingyi. It is based on a taoist cosmological system involving eight trigrams or bagau that revolve around the yin yang. Accordingly bagua is know for its circular movements.

Here in the west, bagua seems to be riding the coattails of taichi, despite being a completely different entree. Like any new ASian import, most bagua served up in the States has been watered down to suit the American palette. All too often here, bagua is made so bland as to appear like taichi done in circles. But as more westerners develop a taste for it, the true flavour of bagua begins to emerge. Aythentic traditional bagua is a respected delicay for a select few connoissuers who can distinguish its subtleties.

" I first started learning the yang style TaiChi 108 form. After I studied it for about 6 yrs, I hit a plateau. I stopped improving. People were really into push hands then. Later, I started learning xingyi from Grandmaster Chen Tian-Yi and bagua from Grandmaster Gong Bao-Zhai. During my twenty yr tutelage in bagua, I stopped practicing tai chi . After I had a good grasp of bagua, I came back to tai chi and my tai chi was greatly improved."

" Now I understand why. In chinese martial arts, taichi is the highest form of expression. It's not your shape or outside appearance ( xing), it's your mind's expression ( yi). If you learn tai chi without your xing being at a high level, your body can't follow your yi. You won't be able to do tai chi well."

" In old days, tai chi masters would teach their students the basic movements of longfist. This is to prepare the body to have, as they say, 'loose tendons and hard bones( song jin da gu). Only after you have a good foundation can you start tai chi practice. It's like learning Chinese calligraphy. If you learn cursive characters ( tsao shu) then you must first learn cuneiform characters ( kai shu). You must learn how to do a basic drawing or sketch before you can do an abstract painting.

"In appearancew, tai chi and bagua look completely different, but the core concepts are actually very similar. in bagua, you learn to twist and compress your body to its smallest form. Tai chi is wide, open and soft. Their appearances asre opposite, like yin and yang, but many of their pricipals are parallel"

( Which when I personally talk similarities in styles, forms, stances, etc is what I am referring to )

" The difference between martial arts systems depends on how you use your bosy. Most systems move forward and backward while bagua is circular. There is twisting energy in bagua, so naturally you walk in a circle. Many people use tai chi movements to practice bagua - that's not correct. True practice of a particular art depends on the correct control of your body movements according to requirements of the art."

"Xingyi also uses twisting movements, however, you only move in a c straight line, not in a circle. "

East Wind, and others, 

There is more to the article and it can be found in the nov/dec issue of kungfu magazine at www.martialartsmart.com or any good newstand. Typically great edition, so check it out.

cheers

Blooming Lotus


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## Fumanchu (Nov 29, 2004)

Blooming Lotus, 

Yup it's correct that most northern practitioners start with long fist and also cross train in related systems. It helps you expand your understanding of the primary system that you're training in if nothing else.

Bagua was developed from grappling system (chinese wrestling) as well as other forms of northern kung fu ( which incidentally deal with grappling situations). Not surprising the resemblance of Bagua and Tai Chi. In terms of their developmental timeline, Bagua is a late comer (1800+) whereas Tai Chi came about in 1600s along with mantis and HsingI. 

HsingI people say it's linear, but I would say that the system like Baji turns in tight circles, you're always redirecting your movements to produce a linear action as opposed to start - stop and restart again. HsingI, like Baji isn't jaring to the practitioner.


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## East Winds (Nov 29, 2004)

chi-ca,
Why do I prefer Zhan Zhuang  to other Qigongs? WOW!! Where to start! I could bore the pants off you with huge long explanations, but put quite simply, it alligns the body, it gives mental clarity, it clears energy blocks and aligns meridians. It is one of the first methods of training the mind to direct the chi and it develops martial power. The down side is that it is essential to have a competent instructor. Its not something you can learn in three weeks!!! Of course it is not the only Qigong I practise, but it is the one that I do every day and it is an excellent grounding and introduction to I-Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan). One other Qigong I practise for energy generation and direction is Tai Chi Chih or Tai Chi Ruler. Well worth investigating. (Incidentally a very good book on Zhan Zhuang is Bruce Kumar Frantzis "Opening the energy Gates of your body" (ISBN1-55643-164-3)

Hope this helps

Regards


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 29, 2004)

For basic qigong as a compliment to taiji, I think brocades are an excellent choice! If it's only soft application you're after, you might want to look at the "shanghai Hospital Medical Qigong" sets, or incorperate it into your bracade sets. You can find some great pieces on different qigong sets with explanations if you click the search icon for past ezine articles at www.kungfumagazine.com , or again at www.houstonshaolin.com you will find some great pics of some sitting qigong exercises.  Here's another link that might help you decide http://www.tai-chi.com/catalog/qiqongvideo4.htm and one for some tips on your practice  http://www.wvi.com/~campb1/24_rules.htm.  Awesome stuff! Enjoy your practice. 

Blooming Lotus


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 29, 2004)

What about sex and tai chi / qigong??  Alot of people believe it greatly influences the bodies abilty to realign your chi and others again have sex regularly and find it doesn't make a difference.  How many qigongers are having sex intermitantly to practice and do you find it makes a difference yourself??  

Personally I find that it's the truth.  The longer I abstain from both sex ( and alcohol for that matter), the stronger my practice seems to be (  particularly in tangible sensation while practicing ) and the better "quality " both my qi and my energy  levels  seem throughout the day.  Anyone else??  What's your experience here?

BL


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## vampyre_rat (Nov 30, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> What about sex and tai chi / qigong?? Alot of people believe it greatly influences the bodies abilty to realign your chi and others again have sex regularly and find it doesn't make a difference. How many qigongers are having sex intermitantly to practice and do you find it makes a difference yourself??
> 
> Personally I find that it's the truth. The longer I abstain from both sex ( and alcohol for that matter), the stronger my practice seems to be ( particularly in tangible sensation while practicing ) and the better "quality " both my qi and my energy levels seem throughout the day. Anyone else?? What's your experience here?
> 
> BL


I am rereading "There are no secrets" by Wolfe Lowenthal.  There is a chapter on this in that book.  Someone asked the prof. about it.  He said that there was different amounts of time required to replenish your chi.  And that you should abstain if you were over 50.  Although CMC said this, he did not follow it.  It was better to be a human being than to be a taoist immortal alone on top of the mountain.

A good book and well worth a read.


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## chi-ca (Nov 30, 2004)

East Winds said:
			
		

> chi-ca,
> Why do I prefer Zhan Zhuang to other Qigongs? WOW!! Where to start! I could bore the pants off you with huge long explanations, but put quite simply, it alligns the body, it gives mental clarity, it clears energy blocks and aligns meridians. It is one of the first methods of training the mind to direct the chi and it develops martial power. The down side is that it is essential to have a competent instructor. Its not something you can learn in three weeks!!! Of course it is not the only Qigong I practise, but it is the one that I do every day and it is an excellent grounding and introduction to I-Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan). One other Qigong I practise for energy generation and direction is Tai Chi Chih or Tai Chi Ruler. Well worth investigating. (Incidentally a very good book on Zhan Zhuang is Bruce Kumar Frantzis "Opening the energy Gates of your body" (ISBN1-55643-164-3)
> 
> Hope this helps
> ...


Thank East Winds,
It's funny you recommended "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" because it has been on my (very long) reading list for a year now. I guess it's time to actually get the book!
Chi-ca


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## East Winds (Nov 30, 2004)

Chi-ca,

Yeah, Bruce is one of these guys you either love or you hate. There are no in betweens with him. He calls a spade a spade. He has been there, done it and got several of the T-shirts. Not like some who claim to have done all sorts of internal MA's but who really have little knowledge beyond the basics. I had the pleasure of working with him for a very short period a couple of years ago and studied Bagua with one of his students. I like the guy.

Very best wishes


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## chi-ca (Dec 1, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Okay, so I picked up a copy of kungfu taichi magazine today and there is a title I can give you that is likely really well suited to your question. It's called " qigong empower ment " and it's written by Master Shou-Yu Liang and Wen-Ching wu. It costs $34.95 US$ and isa available at www.martialartsmart.com


Blooming Lotus-
I have a copy of "Qigong Empowerment" and it is a good reference. It's actually five books in one, each dealing with a different approach to qigong: medical qigong; Daoist; Buddhist; emitting, absorbing, and healing qigong; and Wushu (intensive Iron Shirt) qigong. It's very interesting and helps the reader get an idea of what sort of qigong is right for him/her.  However, it also made me realize that a really good instructor would be REALLY helpful (and that Iron Shirt is definitely not for me!).  I got my copy from Amazon.com 
Chi-ca


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## 7starmantis (Dec 1, 2004)

vampyre_rat said:
			
		

> I am rereading "There are no secrets" by Wolfe Lowenthal.  There is a chapter on this in that book.  Someone asked the prof. about it.  He said that there was different amounts of time required to replenish your chi.  And that you should abstain if you were over 50.  Although CMC said this, he did not follow it.  It was better to be a human being than to be a taoist immortal alone on top of the mountain.
> 
> A good book and well worth a read.



Yes, that is a very good book, and I really liked the way he appraoched this subject. I also found it interesting that CMC believed and yet did not practice this. I agree with him though, better to be a human than alone on the mountain top.

7sm


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## Bloomingtianshilotus (Dec 2, 2004)

Lol...  perfect irony


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## Buddy (Dec 5, 2004)

I studied with Mr. Frantzis for ten years and his neigong is top notch. That book is an excellant intro to basic neigong. I prefer Gao style bagua to his version but thats me. BTW ignore BL, she's bonkers.
Buddy


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## East Winds (Dec 5, 2004)

Hi Buddy,

Thanks. Yeah, which is why I did not pusue the thread any further with her. I had not studied Neigong until I came across some Wu guys a number of years ago who introduced me to it. After having practised Qigong for so many years, it came as quite a revelation. Did you ony study Neigong with Bruce?

Regards

Alistair


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## Blooming Lotus (Dec 5, 2004)

chi-ca said:
			
		

> Blooming Lotus-
> I have a copy of "Qigong Empowerment" and it is a good reference. It's actually five books in one, each dealing with a different approach to qigong: medical qigong; Daoist; Buddhist; emitting, absorbing, and healing qigong; and Wushu (intensive Iron Shirt) qigong. It's very interesting and helps the reader get an idea of what sort of qigong is right for him/her. However, it also made me realize that a really good instructor would be REALLY helpful (and that Iron Shirt is definitely not for me!). I got my copy from Amazon.com
> Chi-ca


I think reading is essentially a really big part of it IMO, but you do need to find an instructor before you begin your practice and I think even more so than with other many other styles.  Iron body is great stuff btw !   What exactly turns you off about it??

Blooming Lotus


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## Buddy (Dec 5, 2004)

Alistair,

Yes I also taught baguazhang for him and studied xingyi and Wu taiji. If you (or anyone) have any questions about his practices, I was one of his senior instructors and would happy to respond as best I can. I'm no earth shaker but have some brief understanding of his Daoist method.
Cheers,
Buddy
PS see my intro on that thread


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## Hammer Head (Dec 10, 2004)

chi-ca said:
			
		

> I've been thinking of studying qigong in addition to taiji and am wondering how many of you have done this and if you think it's very helpful. Did your taiji skills benefit from studying qigong or did you find that qigong is interesting but separate?


 Qigong should always be practiced with Taiji. Adding to what others have said, I would like to quote from the book "Hunyuan Qigong" by Master Feng Zhiqiang: "Gongfa is the foundation of Hunyuan Taijiquan. The training of Gong is to nurture and to promote internal Qi, internal Jin and internal Gong. The ancients used to say, "He who practices Quan without Gong will be doomed to be void of substance till his last breath."

www.chenzhonghua.com
www.taijichinesemedicine.com


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## RHD (Dec 10, 2004)

Hammer Head said:
			
		

> Qigong should always be practiced with Taiji. Adding to what others have said, I would like to quote from the book "Hunyuan Qigong" by Master Feng Zhiqiang: "Gongfa is the foundation of Hunyuan Taijiquan. The training of Gong is to nurture and to promote internal Qi, internal Jin and internal Gong. The ancients used to say, "He who practices Quan without Gong will be doomed to be void of substance till his last breath."
> 
> www.chenzhonghua.com
> www.taijichinesemedicine.com




Are you confusing the term gong with chi gong?  I don't this is saying that qigong is the foundation...  There are many different gongs, and I believe what is inferred in that statement is that you have to practice some other (external body strengthening and conditioning) gongs to in order have a healthy body to support the taichi.  Otherwise practicing only taichi with qigong you will have a weak vessel for all that chi...

Mike


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## Hammer Head (Dec 10, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> Are you confusing the term gong with chi gong? I don't this is saying that qigong is the foundation... There are many different gongs, and I believe what is inferred in that statement is that you have to practice some other (external body strengthening and conditioning) gongs to in order have a healthy body to support the taichi. Otherwise practicing only taichi with qigong you will have a weak vessel for all that chi...
> 
> Mike


 Well Mike, I'm just quoting from a book written by Master Feng Zhiqiang and translated by Master Chen Zhonghua. Although I don't consider myself qualified to discuss the subtleties of the Mandarin language, it seems to me that in this case the term "Gong" and/or "Gongfa" refers to Qigong or Chi Kung. 

 Aside from this, I agree with you in terms of the need for proper body conditioning and fitness as a vehicle for Taijiquan or any other martial art.


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## RHD (Dec 11, 2004)

Hammer Head said:
			
		

> Well Mike, I'm just quoting from a book written by Master Feng Zhiqiang and translated by Master Chen Zhonghua. Although I don't consider myself qualified to discuss the subtleties of the Mandarin language, it seems to me that in this case the term "Gong" and/or "Gongfa" refers to Qigong or Chi Kung.
> 
> Aside from this, I agree with you in terms of the need for proper body conditioning and fitness as a vehicle for Taijiquan or any other martial art.




I'm not much of a linguist either.  Most of the Chinese I'm familliar with is Cantonese, and in that dialect gong is a term for work/exercises.  Chigong would be "chi work" to my understanding.  That's why I wondered about it (gong) because it's a such a general term and normally has two parts to it.  Another example is heigong which is "air or breath work", which core to the Hung Gar that I practice.  Also considered a method of chigong, but practiced along side with fu jow gong/tiger claw training, and various other "external" gongs without which make for weak kung fu.

Mike


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## Jerry (Jan 24, 2005)

I'm gonna do something I hate: I'm going to post on a therad without reading all of it.

Taiji (Tai Chi) is a type of Qigong (chi gung). If you are looking at adding other types of qigong (say Iron Bell, or lohan, or marrow washing) to your existing taiji practice: go for it.

Not the first thing I'd recommend learning remotely, though learning it through seminar or flying to an isntructor isn't all that bad. I don't know too many personally (other than my own), but they are out there. Be warned, there are as many bad qigong people as taiji people, and we know there are a lot of those.

Jerry


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