# Broken Ram- Front Tackle



## MJS (Sep 21, 2006)

To carry on with the tackle threads, I'm putting this up for discussion.

1) While in a right neutral bow, have your left foot swing counter clockwise to 3, into a right neutral bow.  Simultaneously deliver a right overhead downward hammerfist to opponents neck.

2) With opponents left arm still grasping onto your waist, pivot to your left, into a right rev. bow facing 10 and deliver a right uppercut against the joint of opponents left elbow to cause a break.

3) Deliver a right back scoop kick to opponents groin and plant your right foot to point of origin.

4) While planting your right foot, loop your right hand counter clockwise and over opponents left arm and strike his left jaw with a right downward hammerfist, while simultaneously planting your right foot, from the previous move.

5) Right front crossover and cover to 4.


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## DavidCC (Sep 21, 2006)

MJS said:


> To carry on with the tackle threads, I'm putting this up for discussion.
> 
> 1) While in a right neutral bow, have your left foot swing counter clockwise to 3, into a right neutral bow. Simultaneously deliver a right overhead downward hammerfist to opponents neck.


 
RNB facing 10:30? downward hammer to the neck, I'm with ya so far...



MJS said:


> 2) With opponents left arm still grasping onto your waist, pivot to your left, into a right rev. bow facing 10 and deliver a right uppercut against the joint of opponents left elbow to cause a break.


 
I can't picture it... his left arm is around my waist, how do I get his elbow locked out to break?



MJS said:


> 3) Deliver a right back scoop kick to opponents groin and plant your right foot to point of origin.


 
I guess if I understand the elbow break i will know how i stopped his momentum enough that I can turn my back on him and kick 



MJS said:


> 4) While planting your right foot, loop your right hand counter clockwise and over opponents left arm and strike his left jaw with a right downward hammerfist, while simultaneously planting your right foot, from the previous move.
> 
> 5) Right front crossover and cover to 4.


 
now I'm just lost LOL. VIDEO!


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## KenpoTex (Sep 21, 2006)

Pretty similar to the way we do it, here's our version

1) While in a right neutral bow, have your left foot swing counter clockwise to 3, into a right neutral bow. Simultaneously deliver a right overhead downward handsword to opponents neck.

2) With opponents left arm still grasping onto your waist, pivot to your left, into a right rev. bow facing 10 and deliver a right uppercut against the joint of opponents left elbow to cause a break.

3) Drag your lead foot back to a natural stance as you deliver an outward back-knuckle strike to opponents ribs Deliver a right upward heel-hook to opponents groin and plant your right foot to point of origin.

4) Execute a #7 (rear sliding stiff-leg sweep) as you loop your right hand counter clockwise and over opponents left arm and strike his left jaw with a right downward hammerfist (the sweep really causes him to crash into this last hammerfist)

5) Right front crossover and cover to 4.


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## MJS (Sep 22, 2006)

DavidCC said:


> RNB facing 10:30? downward hammer to the neck, I'm with ya so far...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hey Dave,

Just for clarification, this is just a version that I have written down.  I post these techs. here, as written, for discussion on differences, etc.  As you can see here:
http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10396&postcount=1

this is a bit different.  As for your question about the armbreak.  I take that as an attempt to grab.  Stepping back should hopefully put me out of range, therefore, the arm is not fully wrapped around my waist.  The strike to the back of the neck...I prefer the hammerfist, as I feel I can get more power...and a solid stance, should hopefully prevent a takedown.

Perhaps Doc could chime in on this technique and give some feedback, especially in the area of the stances.  *Paging Doc* 

Mike


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## DavidCC (Sep 22, 2006)

MJS said:


> As for your question about the armbreak. I take that as an attempt to grab. Stepping back should hopefully put me out of range, therefore, the arm is not fully wrapped around my waist.
> Mike


 

That was all I could come up with too, was that he had to be still at arm's length.

I don't understand WHY he is still at arm's length, unless he wasn't really coming forward in the first place... If the attacker is committed to the tackle, that hammerfist to the back of the head is either going to knock him silly and he falls down, or he is going to continue forward until something stops him.  Like, his shoulder against your body for example...

But did you step back?  perhaps im reading it wrong but you start in RNB facing 12 and move only your left foot to 3 ending in a RNB facing 1030.  That's not stepping back!

gotta run!


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## MattJ (Sep 22, 2006)

This technique could not possibly work against a tackle or hard waist grab. Opponent will "stick" to you while attempting to turn, making the arm break a near-impossibility. Trying to turn away, the opponent would most likely knock you over. 

I find this to be the most impractical of the ram techniques. MHO. 

Never really understood under what circumstances this move was (realistically) supposed to be done from. Meh.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 22, 2006)

Amazing how the arm break is questioned here but not in Locked Wing, Securing the Storm or a half-dozen other techniques it shows up in .  My personal experience, it works.  I learned it in Ju Jitsu and then saw it in Kenpo and thought cool.  When I used to "bounce" I broke someones elbow (more like dislocated) with this exact movement.  If it's thought that it can't be done it isn't being done right...sorry it's either done wrong, late or both.

--If they're "wrapping around" you are late, WAY late.  You need to use something else such as say Striking Serpent's head on the off side if you're that late.

--their wrist should be contacting your left side and when you pivot the angle should be such that their wrist is the ONLY part of their arm touching you before the uppercut.  

--if their momentum is continuing and the hammer didn't stun them and get them to drop a bit and recover their balance (which is my experience of what ACTUALLY happens) anchor your pressure downward on their shoulder to drop them and continue with Locked Wing on the off side.

Ask a combat wrestler (someone who trains to fight with their wrestling and not pin) about a "whizzer" and see what they show you.  Or just watch the Tank Abbott vs. Vitor Belfort fight and watch for it.  Watch abbott lunge forward and go down to avoid the pressure on his arm.

Another classic example of if it doesn't "seem" to work the technique itself must be broken.


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## MattJ (Sep 22, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Amazing how the arm break is questioned here but not in Locked Wing, Securing the Storm or a half-dozen other techniques it shows up in . My personal experience, it works. I learned it in Ju Jitsu and then saw it in Kenpo and thought cool. When I used to "bounce" I broke someones elbow (more like dislocated) with this exact movement. If it's thought that it can't be done it isn't being done right...sorry it's either done wrong, late or both.


 
LOL. Touched a nerve, Did I? Apologies if that came off harsh. I tend to speak my mind, for better or worse. Let me clarify that I am not saying the arm break is impossible. I actually had my arm broken in class by a student doing it on me, so I know it *can* work. But that was in non-resistant practice.



> --If they're "wrapping around" you are late, WAY late. You need to use something else such as say Striking Serpent's head on the off side if you're that late.
> 
> --their wrist should be contacting your left side and when you pivot the angle should be such that their wrist is the ONLY part of their arm touching you before the uppercut.


 
Again, I am not a kenpo apologist. I made a sincere effort to find if these techniques could work realisitically or not. What you are talking about requires superhuman timing and accuracy - while being tackled. Very few people can execute that technique as it's written, against a (resisting) tackle. 



> --if their momentum is continuing and the hammer didn't stun them and get them to drop a bit and recover their balance (which is my experience of what ACTUALLY happens) anchor your pressure downward on their shoulder to drop them and continue with Locked Wing on the off side.
> 
> Ask a combat wrestler (someone who trains to fight with their wrestling and not pin) about a "whizzer" and see what they show you. Or just watch the Tank Abbott vs. Vitor Belfort fight and watch for it. Watch abbott lunge forward and go down to avoid the pressure on his arm.
> 
> Another classic example of if it doesn't "seem" to work the technique itself must be broken.


 
Just my opinion. But I formed it through working the technique in class with various stages of resistance, and finding that it was a "low precentage" move for me and everyone else that tried it. If you have some video of someone making that move work against resisitance, I would love to see it so I can learn.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 22, 2006)

MattJ said:


> .......Again, I am not a kenpo apologist. I made a sincere effort to find if these techniques could work realisitically or not. What you are talking about requires superhuman timing and accuracy - while being tackled. Very few people can execute that technique as it's written, against a (resisting) tackle.
> 
> Just my opinion. But I formed it through working the technique in class with various stages of resistance, and finding that it was a "low precentage" move for me and everyone else that tried it. If you have some video of someone making that move work against resisitance, I would love to see it so I can learn.


 
Everyone YOU KNOW.  There are wrestlers throwing whizzers and breaking arms all the time.  Check on it.  It's not the move it's you and those you train with.  And I already posted one example of the movement you desribed as low percentage being used.  I've done it in a "live fire" situation against resistance of someone who didn't know what the book said.  You tried in class against people that knew ahead of time what you were trying to do.  Anyone can counter or check off anything when they know it's coming.  Or maybe I'm just superhuman, or maybe you just can't do it and therefore "everyone else that tried it" must can't either.  That's everyone else except myself and a few others that is.  Jamie Seabrook that posts here will tell you he's used them too so that's 2 people.  Add Raphael White and now there are three.  No need to keep going you see where I'm headed with this.  Always makes me wonder how Black Belts can't make a Purple Belt move work and blame the move...guess it's just easier to blame something else.  But if you couldn't make it work at purple why did you keep training it up to at least 2nd Black if you didn't beleive any of it was functional? Sounds like a big waste of time to me.

And no Matt you haven't hit a nerve, I find it amusing that people can't do things and immediately blame something else and sum it up with generalizations. That's why I put the smiley in there as I was laughing at it.  No one that uses a tool is ever at fault...It's ALWAYS the tool that fails them. If that's the case "I can blame my pencil for misspelled words"


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## MJS (Sep 22, 2006)

DavidCC said:


> But did you step back? perhaps im reading it wrong but you start in RNB facing 12 and move only your left foot to 3 ending in a RNB facing 1030. That's not stepping back!
> 
> gotta run!


 
There are times when I begin my techs. from a natural position.  If I was standing naturally, yes, it would be stepping back, but from the NB, its more of a sidestep to me.


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## MattJ (Sep 23, 2006)

James - 

Sincerely not trying to agitate you. I have an opinion that differs from yours. As you know, i have some experience with the moves, and worked hard to find what ones worked for me in particular and others in general. Yes, people I know, LOL.



> That's everyone else except myself and a few others that is.


 
Sadly, you are making my point for me. I know Raphael, and he is an exceptional martial artist. But what of the legions of purples and blues (and black belts) that do have a hard time? That was my point.



> Always makes me wonder how Black Belts can't make a Purple Belt move work and blame the move...guess it's just easier to blame something else. But if you couldn't make it work at purple why did you keep training it up to at least 2nd Black if you didn't beleive any of it was functional? Sounds like a big waste of time to me.


 
Now who's generalizing? Where did I say "none of it is functional"? Are trying to imply I don't think AKK is functional? Please feel free to talk to Jim Frederick or Raphael with regards to my lack of dedication or skill.

That's fine if you disagree with my input, but there is no need for veiled insults. 

Apologies for the thread hijack.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 23, 2006)

MattJ said:


> James..................... but there is no need for veiled insults.
> 
> Apologies for the thread hijack.


 
1) I don't veil insults they're direct when I make them. You're reading far too deep which is fine and equally amusing as well.

2) I said nothing of your lack of dedication, but if you're having problem with a Purple belt move and you're a Black Belt that does denote a lack of skill in that area. No insult there, just reality. It's a Purple Belt move meaning it's a beginner/Intermediate move and you as a Black Belt are suppossed to have advanced skill. That's 10+ belts ago and even more years ago for someone of your caliber. Alot of time to either figure out why something doesn't work for you and fix it or take the easier route and blame THE MOVE while discounting the simple fact that it has worked for some people which means it is not the move it's the person using it....simple logic my man, no more no less.

3) You're mentioning "legions" of Blues and Blacks having problems with tackle techniques. Sorry, but I'm not seeing that in my experiences, except the ones that come from the same schools that have no grappling experience and have severly limited understanding of both the technique and the attack.

4) The "none of it was functional" part comes from reading various threads where you've downed the effectiveness of the tackle techniques, knife techniques and two mans as being dysfunctional at best. Forgive me for seeing a pattern in your posts there. But the idea keeps recurring that the tools are broken instead of the person is misusing the tools.

5) You're right I disagree with you but I'm not insulting you. Just being direct. It's not the TOOL (Martial Arts) It's the person that matters. If the move does not work for you but it does work for others the only thing that changed is who is using it. The move itself remained largely the same. Therefore it's not the move it's the person using it. Simple, direct logic...no more no less.

If it's the tool not the person then....

A) Pencils misspell words
B) Guns shoot people by themselves
C) Cars get into accidents not drivers

Short Version. You say the Rams don't work and I say they do work you're just not doing them right because I've used them succesfully repeatedly and have seen too many others that have as well. If that's insulting to you...oh well....you're the one that said they don't work for you in the first place. It just strikes me as odd that the Rams worked for so many "old timers" before either one of us even knew what Kenpo was and now today it must be the Rams that don't work because you've experienced....difficulties with them.

:idunno:


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## MattJ (Sep 23, 2006)

> The "none of it was functional" part comes from reading various threads where you've downed the effectiveness of the tackle techniques, knife techniques and two mans as being dysfunctional at best. Forgive me for seeing a pattern in your posts there. But the idea keeps recurring that the tools are broken instead of the person is misusing the tools.


 
Those kinds of comments are disingenuous at best. YOU are reading too much into my comments here, my friend. I stand by the criticisms that I have made regarding SOME techniques in AKK. The two mans in particular stress staying in between two opponents. Despite the conceptual underpinnings that they may have, _doing it_ ie; staying between two opponents, is poor idea. I know of hardly anyone that disagrees with that.

As far as weapons techniques go, I haven't seen any weapons techniques from ANY system that I care for, if that means anything. I don't even bother to train for them any more.

I think AKK is a good standup art, and I would not have studied it for as long as I did if I thought otherwise. However, I do feel that if, in a certain amount of concentrated study, some techniques are consistently (IME) difficult to apply, that possibly the technique is not being shown for the correct application (as in Broken Ram) or there is a conceptual flaw with the model (the two mans).  However, as you imply, I am far from an expert.  I enjoy learning new things and new things about stuff I already know. Very possible that in spite of my very good instructors, I simply suck. Meh. Cant win em all.

I do not feel that I am disrespecting Mr Parker or AKK with my critcisms. He did not want automatons that simply regurgitated techniques (not directed at anyone here), and I think he would have appreciated a critical view. He did this himself for the art.

Double apologies for hijacking this thread. I will restrain myself from posting any more off-topic on this.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 24, 2006)

MattJ said:


> Those kinds of comments are disingenuous at best.......Double apologies for hijacking this thread. I will restrain myself from posting any more off-topic on this.


 
For the record, I appreciate the fact that you think critically as well (I'm actually quite impressed as many Kenpoists chant "Kenpo is the greatest system ever and all the techniques are fail-safe and invinsible").  I simply disagree as our experiences differ greatly.  In short I haven't found a flawed tool yet in the American Kenpo System yet.  As for other systems I've studied, hmmmm...but even there I may just be missing something about how the tool is used. Except for blocking punches with crescent kicks in TKD...I still can't find a good reason to use that "tool".

I wouldn't go as far as to say you suck, I've seen you on the mats at least twice that I can remember along with George (forget his last name) and Tony Gang (sp?).  But from what I'm gleeming of your comments on the Rams your takedown defense is missing something....


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## MJS (Sep 25, 2006)

I think that both sides bring up some good points, but I agree with James.  There were a few techniques that I was thinking would never work, but after having someone take the time and explain things, I saw them in a different light.  Of course, understanding how a grappler operates is a big help IMO.  If we understand that, then we should be able to make the necessary adjustments, if any, to the technique to make it work.

Mike


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## Warrior-Scholar (Sep 29, 2006)

Hi everyone!  New to the forum.  
I have a suggestion; something alluded to earlier by Mr. Hawkins.  In order to determine the true effectiveness of this technique, let's practice will full force strikes to the mastoid or spine and full force uppercuts on your opponent's elbow.  I don't think we'll have too many students returning or volunteering to go first!

If you feel uncomfortable doing a technique, then you probably won't use it in a combat situation.  As mentioned, maybe one needs to look at the subtleties of execution etc. before throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water.  However, there are certain techniques that my body structure or perhaps mental state will not work as well for me.  I have a 400+ lb. student.  Now let's be realistic.  Physically he won't pull off a technique like Escape from Darkness according to the prescribed manner.  Does this mean the principles won't work for ME?  Personally I plan on stopping the guy with the hammerfist!  

One last comment:  What about the left hand in all of this?  Perhaps use it more actively than just checking?  Try and arrest your opponent with the left hand and see if that makes a difference.  Just an idea.


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