# Another Self defence system



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 1, 2017)

Hi guys.

A friend on Facebook sent this to me asking for my opinion, and quite frankly I don't know what to make of it. From one stand point the guy doing the demonstrations clearly has a lot of speed and has trained his techniques well, but it's hard to tell if he could do the same thing under resistance.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=701424553402007


----------



## drop bear (Sep 1, 2017)

Tell your friend to do MMA.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 1, 2017)

You may

- write a book with 100 techniques.
- make a DVD with 50 techniques.
- given a workshop with 25 techniques.
- demo in the public with 10 techniques.
- fight in the street with 5 techniques.


----------



## Danny T (Sep 1, 2017)

He has some well trained seals to demo with.


----------



## marques (Sep 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Tell your friend to do MMA.


Why? In MMA the other guy fights back, you know? 

I don't want to see guys hurting themselves for no reason, but I would like to see more demonstrations with some opposition as below, rather than experts (in) hitting a death stand up man.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> A friend on Facebook sent this to me asking for my opinion, and quite frankly I don't know what to make of it. From one stand point the guy doing the demonstrations clearly has a lot of speed and has trained his techniques well, but it's hard to tell if he could do the same thing under resistance.
> 
> ...


His first move each time looks good (I don't agree with some of them, but they do start control). In most cases, the rest appears to be predicated on the opponent/attacker not moving. In many of the cases, any movement would change the situation and remove (or, rather, change) the remainder of the response. My biggest problem is that I don't see him controlling the other person in many of these. He steps in to take a leg or to kick it out, but hasn't controlled the upper body, so he's more vulnerable during that step than his attacker is.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2017)

marques said:


> Why? In MMA the other guy fights back, you know?
> 
> I don't want to see guys hurting themselves for no reason, but I would like to see more demonstrations with some opposition as below, rather than experts (in) hitting a death stand up man.


Am I the only one who gets annoyed that videos like that are 3 minutes of intro and 3 minutes of fight?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2017)

marques said:


> Why? In MMA the other guy fights back, you know?
> 
> I don't want to see guys hurting themselves for no reason, but I would like to see more demonstrations with some opposition as below, rather than experts (in) hitting a death stand up man.


In fairness to the video in the OP, that's not even a demonstration, or even practice. It appears to be teaching, and that is about the most un-live situation there is.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> His first move each time looks good (I don't agree with some of them, but they do start control). In most cases, the rest appears to be predicated on the opponent/attacker not moving. In many of the cases, any movement would change the situation and remove (or, rather, change) the remainder of the response. My biggest problem is that I don't see him controlling the other person in many of these. He steps in to take a leg or to kick it out, but hasn't controlled the upper body, so he's more vulnerable during that step than his attacker is.



It's pretty much understood that things would be a lot different if the attacker moved more, but that is almost impossible to do in a demonstration let alone a lesson where you are explaining the techniques. My problem is that some of the moves looked like the attacker was literally just falling over. Now granted there are a lot of techniques where trying to resist them results in more injury to the victim, but still, it seemed just a little bit too fake to me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> It's pretty much understood that things would be a lot different if the attacker moved more, but that is almost impossible to do in a demonstration let alone a lesson where you are explaining the techniques. My problem is that some of the moves looked like the attacker was literally just falling over. Now granted there are a lot of techniques where trying to resist them results in more injury to the victim, but still, it seemed just a little bit too fake to me.


What made them fall over, in many cases, appeared real (from a physics standpoint), but wouldn't be very available in motion - unless you control their body (from the head, arm, or shoulder, usually). Their falls were probably somewhat exaggerated compared to what made them fall, but that's mostly because it gets you a cleaner fall, which is easier on the person taking the fall - it's something most of us do when we take a lot of falls in training drills.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Sep 2, 2017)

so the guy in the video is Fred Mastro.   the system is the Mastro Self Defense System.
i will say that as far as a martial artist Fred is the real deal.  the reality of his system is that he is a Pencak Silat practitioner.  his system is pretty much that, marketed as a self defense system due to his credentials as a door man and later training police and military (so says his public info) and the popularity of that brand of stuff in todays market.

to ask if his system will work is really asking if silat will work.
he is very well known. i have seen his stuff on line. i have asked myself the same question,  how much in silat will work and how much is kinda fluff that only works in the demonstration setting.
as far as the clip posted,, context is everything.  what i see is a guy giving a seminar on *his* stuff.  part of his goal is to promote himself and his system, so of course he is going to be flashy and show off in order to impress the crowd.  its kind of a requirement of self promotion.  AND it is to be expected.  the people have payed good money to see the "world famous Fred Mastro"  they would be upset if they were not wowed. that was part of the reason they attended, to see the guy in person and in action.


----------



## jobo (Sep 2, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> so the guy in the video is Fred Mastro.   the system is the Mastro Self Defense System.
> i will say that as far as a martial artist Fred is the real deal.  the reality of his system is that he is a Pencak Silat practitioner.  his system is pretty much that, marketed as a self defense system due to his credentials as a door man and later training police and military (so says his public info) and the popularity of that brand of stuff in todays market.
> 
> to ask if his system will work is really asking if silat will work.
> ...


i think with that hand speed and fluidity he would be quite a hand full for the vast majority of people. The real test is what's it look like as a self defence system for mere mortals, when it a quarter of the speed. Just as cluncky as most other self defence systems i would suggest, so your left with the same situations as all ma, its might take you years to get even quite good at it and you may never get there, bet it doesn't say that in his promo matterial?


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> i think with that hand speed and fluidity he would be quite a hand full for the vast majority of people. The real test is what's it look like as a self defence system for mere mortals, when it a quarter of the speed. Just as cluncky as most other self defence systems i would suggest, so your left with the same situations as all ma, its might take you years to get even quite good at it and you may never get there, bet it doesn't say that in his promo matterial?



This is a similar problem I have with Aikido. I fully believe that Aikido is an amazing Self-defence Martial Art but if it takes you 25+ years to get to the point of usefulness with it then what is the point? Now granted to a lot of people (myself included), there is a lot more to Martial Arts than self-defence, but if you are trying to market a self-defence system then one of your primary goals should be accessibility and simplicity. In cases like this I think what would be more effective would be instead of showing the Master doing the moves, bring in someone who has only been training a few months and see how they manage using the system. If you are trying to demonstrate the system's effectiveness, having a novice prove it works is much more powerful than the Master doing it.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 2, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> You can always try Kerberos, they offer 8 hour courses
> 
> Now on a serious note, I have checked you profile, not sure it's up to date but I saw that you practice Tai Chi, White Crane and Wing Chun. Those are all systems that take years to develop any martial skill. What the hell are you doing with those then?
> 
> ...



It is kind of a case of how much you are expected to process in a short amount of time.

If you look at the mechanics you see that each strike requires a response or even a couple of responses.  The faster and more numerous the strikes the harder it is to keep up.

Now you can slow their strikes down with footwork. Basically if they have to step in their striking isn't this massive volume of attacks as much. Then you can address an individual attack. But if you are fighting from directly in front that sort of method is ambitious.

You see this at play with that first video where the instructor is showing how hard it is to defend a knife cut and just nailes him ten times.

That is the mechanic of striking that people dont consider. I mean he can't even get a hand up let alone some counter.

It is kind of like going to BJJ and Learning a thousand submissions. I don't think you ever really understand the art that way.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> This is a similar problem I have with Aikido. I fully believe that Aikido is an amazing Self-defence Martial Art but if it takes you 25+ years to get to the point of usefulness with it then what is the point? Now granted to a lot of people (myself included), there is a lot more to Martial Arts than self-defence, but if you are trying to market a self-defence system then one of your primary goals should be accessibility and simplicity. In cases like this I think what would be more effective would be instead of showing the Master doing the moves, bring in someone who has only been training a few months and see how they manage using the system. If you are trying to demonstrate the system's effectiveness, having a novice prove it works is much more powerful than the Master doing it.


Agreed. Styles that focus entirely on the "aiki" principles and techniques are best suited to add-on to an existing base. Even in NGA, the functional base traditionally develops over time. I've been working it earlier and earlier, to see what develops students to some defensive ability early. The issue is figuring out how quickly folks can potentially develop with the time they commit.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 2, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> You can always try Kerberos, they offer 8 hour courses
> 
> Now on a serious note, I have checked you profile, not sure it's up to date but I saw that you practice Tai Chi, White Crane and Wing Chun. Those are all systems that take years to develop any martial skill. What the hell are you doing with those then?
> 
> ...



You know what, I've read through this post 10 times and I really don't know how to reply to it, it's that stupid. But since you were clearly trying to provoke a reaction, I will try to oblige (even though it's probably not worth my time). First off, I don't learn White Crane (my primary art) purely for self-defence, but for fitness, socialising, learning the culture and fun. If I do learn some self-defence skills along the way, that's a bonus for me. This is fine because that is exactly the same focus as my instructor, which is why he is teaching a traditional Chinese Martial Arts system rather than a more modern self-defence system. It's also why we do traditional forms, weapons and archery as well as learning self-defence. That is what I signed up for and that is what I got. 

On the other hand the system in the OP labels itself as a "self-defence system", in other words, teaching self-defence is its primary goal. If it doesn't teach it effectively then one would question why you would choose it over other systems? The video is a marketing tool, to prove that the teacher is skilled, knowledgeable and most importantly that the system works. All I said was that if you wanted to prove a system's effectiveness you would show-case some novices doing the techniques as well as the instructor. Yes of course the novices won't be nearly as fast or skilled as the instructor, but they don't need to be. If someone is looking for effective self-defence they aren't going to want to choose a system that takes 20+ years of solid training in before you can use the system in a live situation. One of the reasons why bjj is so popular for self-defence is because even after just 6 months of training you are probably able to use some of the basic techniques on a resisting opponent. Can you say the same for this system?  

Finally (and I'm not even sure why I need to ask this at all) what does my choice of Martial Art have anything at all to do with critiquing a self-defence system?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> You know what, I've read through this post 10 times and I really don't know how to reply to it, it's that stupid. But since you were clearly trying to provoke a reaction, I will try to oblige (even though it's probably not worth my time). First off, I don't learn White Crane (my primary art) purely for self-defence, but for fitness, socialising, learning the culture and fun. If I do learn some self-defence skills along the way, that's a bonus for me. This is fine because that is exactly the same focus as my instructor, which is why he is teaching a traditional Chinese Martial Arts system rather than a more modern self-defence system. It's also why we do traditional forms, weapons and archery as well as learning self-defence. That is what I signed up for and that is what I got.
> 
> On the other hand the system in the OP labels itself as a "self-defence system", in other words, teaching self-defence is its primary goal. If it doesn't teach it effectively then one would question why you would choose it over other systems? The video is a marketing tool, to prove that the teacher is skilled, knowledgeable and most importantly that the system works. All I said was that if you wanted to prove a system's effectiveness you would show-case some novices doing the techniques as well as the instructor. Yes of course the novices won't be nearly as fast or skilled as the instructor, but they don't need to be. If someone is looking for effective self-defence they aren't going to want to choose a system that takes 20+ years of solid training in before you can use the system in a live situation. One of the reasons why bjj is so popular for self-defence is because even after just 6 months of training you are probably able to use some of the basic techniques on a resisting opponent. Can you say the same for this system?
> 
> Finally (and I'm not even sure why I need to ask this at all) what does my choice of Martial Art have anything at all to do with critiquing a self-defence system?



Except when does a person ever have to use a self defence system?

Which is why you can get away with so much by being one.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Except when does a person ever have to use a self defence system?
> 
> Which is why you can get away with so much by being one.



Wow, twice in a single thread where I've read a post a dozen or so times and have no idea what it means. Am I losing my grip on the English language or something?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Except when does a person ever have to use a self defence system?
> 
> Which is why you can get away with so much by being one.


If you have never involved with any street fight, you will never have to use your self-defense system. On the other hand, if you spar/wrestle daily, will you call your system "self-defense" or "sport"?

If you create a new MA system, you want to test it against many different MA systems, How can you do that without using any "sport" format? If you say that your new JKD is better than the old WC system, you do have to prove it in the ring.


----------



## jobo (Sep 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Wow, twice in a single thread where I've read a post a dozen or so times and have no idea what it means. Am I losing my grip on the English language or something?


i think his point was you can sell any old tripe as self defence and it might be years before they find out its tripe.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> You know what, I've read through this post 10 times and I really don't know how to reply to it, it's that stupid. But since you were clearly trying to provoke a reaction, I will try to oblige (even though it's probably not worth my time). First off, I don't learn White Crane (my primary art) purely for self-defence, but for fitness, socialising, learning the culture and fun. If I do learn some self-defence skills along the way, that's a bonus for me. This is fine because that is exactly the same focus as my instructor, which is why he is teaching a traditional Chinese Martial Arts system rather than a more modern self-defence system. It's also why we do traditional forms, weapons and archery as well as learning self-defence. That is what I signed up for and that is what I got.
> 
> On the other hand the system in the OP labels itself as a "self-defence system", in other words, teaching self-defence is its primary goal. If it doesn't teach it effectively then one would question why you would choose it over other systems? The video is a marketing tool, to prove that the teacher is skilled, knowledgeable and most importantly that the system works. All I said was that if you wanted to prove a system's effectiveness you would show-case some novices doing the techniques as well as the instructor. Yes of course the novices won't be nearly as fast or skilled as the instructor, but they don't need to be. If someone is looking for effective self-defence they aren't going to want to choose a system that takes 20+ years of solid training in before you can use the system in a live situation. One of the reasons why bjj is so popular for self-defence is because even after just 6 months of training you are probably able to use some of the basic techniques on a resisting opponent. Can you say the same for this system?
> 
> Finally (and I'm not even sure why I need to ask this at all) what does my choice of Martial Art have anything at all to do with critiquing a self-defence system?


I'm not responding to the rest of this - it seems appropriate, but not something you need my reply on. I just wanted to talk about demonstrations not including beginners. I've done some demos where we basically did a class in front of people, with whomever showed up from the school, including folks with only a few months of training. Unfortunately, it looks like crap compared to the fight scenes from the movies. Given my 'druthers, I'd always do demos by just holding a class (using a class plan designed to show what people can do), but I've heard audience members mock when a knife defense fails because the knife attack is....well, a knife attack, and those things are dangerous, if the person means to hurt you. Often, people watching a demo (or demo video) want to see how good the art can be, and measure it against the fantasy world.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not responding to the rest of this - it seems appropriate, but not something you need my reply on. I just wanted to talk about demonstrations not including beginners. I've done some demos where we basically did a class in front of people, with whomever showed up from the school, including folks with only a few months of training. Unfortunately, it looks like crap compared to the fight scenes from the movies. Given my 'druthers, I'd always do demos by just holding a class (using a class plan designed to show what people can do), but I've heard audience members mock when a knife defense fails because the knife attack is....well, a knife attack, and those things are dangerous, if the person means to hurt you. Often, people watching a demo (or demo video) want to see how good the art can be, and measure it against the fantasy world.



Maybe that says more about the people watching the demonstration than the demonstration itself. Until people realise that real life self-defence is completely different to what you see in films, this sort of thing will always happen.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> i think his point was you can sell any old tripe as self defence and it might be years before they find out its tripe.



There has to be some sort of test of objective. It has to work somewhere other than a demo.

 Otherwise people could just claim that all resonable testing in the gym, sparring, competing, going to other schools, even just non compliant training is not a representation of a real life self defence situation. 

I mean then you would be stuck.



Midnight-shadow said:


> Maybe that says more about the people watching the demonstration than the demonstration itself. Until people realise that real life self-defence is completely different to what you see in films, this sort of thing will always happen.



Like this. This is a really bad aproach to self defence. And why people do BJJ. 

I mean you go to a BJJ school and they dont convince you of the street at all. They just tie you in knots then and there.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2017)

If you have not used your

- side kick to knock down N different guys, you can not claim that you have developed your side kick.
- single leg to take down N different guys, you can not claim that you have developed your single leg.
- ...

Where N can be 7, 10, 20, ...

The question is where are you going to find these N different guys besides in the ring or on the mat?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Maybe that says more about the people watching the demonstration than the demonstration itself. Until people realise that real life self-defence is completely different to what you see in films, this sort of thing will always happen.


Oh, it definitely does. Because of that, a "good" demonstration (in most cases, the purpose is to get people to take their first few classes) has to cater to the Bulletproof Monk mentality.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> They just tie you in knots then and there.



Not if they get dropped first which is what would happen in 'da street'. A BJJ class is dependent on people being willing to roll on the floor with others, no good if you are stand up fighting.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Sep 3, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> You can always try Kerberos, they offer 8 hour courses
> 
> Now on a serious note, I have checked you profile, not sure it's up to date but I saw that you practice Tai Chi, White Crane and Wing Chun. Those are all systems that take years to develop any martial skill. What the hell are you doing with those then?
> 
> ...



Wow..cool.  this is the first time I have been mentioned in a post here. Break out the champagne!   Thank you.....even though you used me in a bit of tongue in cheek sarcasm.

My point was that you can not judge a system on a video like that. It does what it is supposed to do perfectly, impress the unwashed masses. But it doesn't answer the op question


----------



## jobo (Sep 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> There has to be some sort of test of objective. It has to work somewhere other than a demo.
> 
> Otherwise people could just claim that all resonable testing in the gym, sparring, competing, going to other schools, even just non compliant training is not a representation of a real life self defence situation.
> 
> ...


that is in its self true, but also some what simplistic , a techneque may not work or not work very well against a skilled opponent, but be absolute dynamite against an enraged attacker against whom you have amongst other things the element of surprise, if they thought you capable of putting up a robust defence, they wouldn't be attacking you in the first place.
you can if you have,some experience of fighting ring or otherwise make an assessment of the mechanics of a techneque and if its likely to give benefit or not without actually testing it in a real situation.

then there is the issue that seldom gets discussed, which is fitness. I'm quietly confident that i can hold my own in an altercation against most people as my fitness is much better than average, with out any fancy skills, but then my fitness is good because i learn ma, any system that significantly improves your fitness immediately makes you better at defending yourself, , so its chicken and,egg


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> What the hell do you know? You train for fitness and fun and with little selfdefense value...
> 
> You own words
> 
> Only advice I can give you, actually try to train with people like Fred Mastro and  you will find out what works for you and what doesn't.......good luck


Why the venom?


----------



## jobo (Sep 3, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> What the hell do you know? You train for fitness and fun and with little selfdefense value...
> 
> You own words
> 
> Only advice I can give you, actually try to train with people like Fred Mastro and  you will find out what works for you and what doesn't.......good luck



Imo betting a pound that Mastro isn't his real name


----------



## jobo (Sep 3, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> Why wouldn't it be?


because its to close to meastro, meaning master or teacher.


----------



## jobo (Sep 3, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> I think it's his real name.


its about as likely as having a postman called mr letterbox


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 3, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> I'm tired of folks like him, never visited any seminars of Fred Mastro and judging by a video.
> 
> I attended a seminar of Fred Mastro and he is actually a pretty good self defense teacher.
> 
> The OP acts if he knows it all, then why doesn't he shows his skills to us? I mean his selfdefense skills



Hmm consider this, if I did know it all (or think I knew it all) why would I be asking for advice and opinions online about it? You really haven't thought this argument through properly have you? If you have been to this guy's seminars and say he's a good teacher, fantastic. I'm not here to criticise his teaching or his system. My main point in all of this is that it's easy to look good in a video demonstration such as this, but it doesn't really help people who know next to nothing about Martial Arts or Self-defence. As I said before, as a (relative) beginner to Martial Arts, the techniques in the video look more like the attacker is just falling over like they would in a movie. That was one of the reasons why I was asked my opinion on it in the first place, because to my friend (who has never studied a Martial Art) thought it looked completely fake. 

It brings up an interesting point when it comes to marketing self-defence courses/systems. How can you make the system look good while still having the realism that a complete beginner can understand?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> that is in its self true, but also some what simplistic , a techneque may not work or not work very well against a skilled opponent, but be absolute dynamite against an enraged attacker against whom you have amongst other things the element of surprise, if they thought you capable of putting up a robust defence, they wouldn't be attacking you in the first place.
> you can if you have,some experience of fighting ring or otherwise make an assessment of the mechanics of a techneque and if its likely to give benefit or not without actually testing it in a real situation.
> 
> then there is the issue that seldom gets discussed, which is fitness. I'm quietly confident that i can hold my own in an altercation against most people as my fitness is much better than average, with out any fancy skills, but then my fitness is good because i learn ma, any system that significantly improves your fitness immediately makes you better at defending yourself, , so its chicken and,egg



Yeas something may work against a chump that may not work against a trained fighter. But I still think you should base your training on what is real.

For example. Fitness works everywhere. If you are fit you will perform better in the gym. If you are not fit you may have to make up a story about how street fights don't last very long.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> because its to close to meastro, meaning master or teacher.



mastro - Wiktionary


----------



## drop bear (Sep 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Not if they get dropped first which is what would happen in 'da street'. A BJJ class is dependent on people being willing to roll on the floor with others, no good if you are stand up fighting.



Which is of course another story that can justify a lack of realism. So yes you just got manhandled because you have no skills. But in the street the ground is lava. So it doesn't count.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 3, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Hmm consider this, if I did know it all (or think I knew it all) why would I be asking for advice and opinions online about it? You really haven't thought this argument through properly have you? If you have been to this guy's seminars and say he's a good teacher, fantastic. I'm not here to criticise his teaching or his system. My main point in all of this is that it's easy to look good in a video demonstration such as this, but it doesn't really help people who know next to nothing about Martial Arts or Self-defence. As I said before, as a (relative) beginner to Martial Arts, the techniques in the video look more like the attacker is just falling over like they would in a movie. That was one of the reasons why I was asked my opinion on it in the first place, because to my friend (who has never studied a Martial Art) thought it looked completely fake.
> 
> It brings up an interesting point when it comes to marketing self-defence courses/systems. How can you make the system look good while still having the realism that a complete beginner can understand?



The guys i go to seminars with just fight everyone in the room.


----------



## jobo (Sep 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> mastro - Wiktionary


or the same in Portuguese


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> How can you make the system look good while still having the realism that a complete beginner can understand?


All demo are 1/2 fake and 1/2 real.

- The 1/2 fake part is your opponent gives you that opportunity.
- The 1/2 real part is you have to finish it.

If your opponent also helps you to finish, that will be 100% fake. On the other hand, if your opponent never gives you that opportunity (such as running away from you), even if you are the best MA master on earth, you still can't demonstrate your skill.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> I'm tired of folks like him, never visited any seminars of Fred Mastro and judging by a video.
> 
> I attended a seminar of Fred Mastro and he is actually a pretty good self defense teacher.
> 
> The OP acts if he knows it all, then why doesn't he shows his skills to us? I mean his selfdefense skills


I don't see that attitude from him, at all. He asked for others' opinions in the OP - that's hardly being highly judgmental.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> its about as likely as having a postman called mr letterbox


Interestingly, there was a study done some years ago, and that sort of thing happens a bit more often than is predicted by random chance - people going into professions that match their names. I've often wondered what the psychological process is that leads to it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The guys i go to seminars with just fight everyone in the room.


The problem with that is that the best view of a teacher is not his fighting ability, nor that of his best guys. It's the ability of either the relative beginners (if you want to get something reasonably quick) or the guys in the middle (if you want to see what most people in the program are probably capable of. So, even if someone does that (and I never have, because I don't know who can take the falls/protect themselves), what you know is how well they can handle themselves - not whether they can teach the same to you. It comes back to the basic problem of demonstrations: the people best equipped to make a judgement aren't the ones evaluating you via demonstration.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All demo are 1/2 fake and 1/2 real.
> 
> - The 1/2 fake part is your opponent gives you that opportunity.
> - The 1/2 real part is you have to finish it.
> ...



I see where you are coming from, but at the same time we have already discussed techniques that if resisted can cause a lot of damage so of course you are going to help your opponent finish you in a training scenario or you risk getting unecessarily injured.


----------



## jobo (Sep 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeas something may work against a chump that may not work against a trained fighter. But I still think you should base your training on what is real.
> 
> For example. Fitness works everywhere. If you are fit you will perform better in the gym. If you are not fit you may have to make up a story about how street fights don't last very long.


but what's real, a ring fight against a good oppoinent might be real for you, but its an invitation to a broken nose for a lot of people.

we have a lad at our class, he certainly isn't athletic or co ordinated, but I've watch him develop from easy meat to being able to punch a mugger in the throat with plenty of force. He is a far harder proposition now, but he would still get his nose broken against any sort of ring fighter


----------



## drop bear (Sep 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> but what's real, a ring fight against a good oppoinent might be real for you, but its an invitation to a broken nose for a lot of people.
> 
> we have a lad at our class, he certainly isn't athletic or co ordinated, but I've watch him develop from easy meat to being able to punch a mugger in the throat with plenty of force. He is a far harder proposition now, but he would still get his nose broken against any sort of ring fighter



Depends what they want to get out of the training. We have taken some pretty uncoordinated guys and got them ring ready.

Nobody from our gym goes in unathletic.(mostly. We have one guy who just rocks up sometimes a week before a fight does a bit of sparring and jumps in.) That you can control with exercise.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 3, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I see where you are coming from, but at the same time we have already discussed techniques that if resisted can cause a lot of damage so of course you are going to help your opponent finish you in a training scenario or you risk getting unecessarily injured.



Too deadly to spar rears its head again.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> but what's real, a ring fight against a good oppoinent might be real for you, but its an invitation to a broken nose for a lot of people.
> 
> we have a lad at our class, he certainly isn't athletic or co ordinated, but I've watch him develop from easy meat to being able to punch a mugger in the throat with plenty of force. He is a far harder proposition now, but he would still get his nose broken against any sort of ring fighter



I guess it comes down to what are the chances of you having to defend yourself against someone with formal fight training? For example, one of the first things i was taught in kickboxing is never fight with completely straight legs, because if you get kicked in the knee when your leg is completely straight it can cause a lot of damage. Now how many untrained people know something like that?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The guys i go to seminars with just fight everyone in the room.


Old saying said, "If you want to teach someone, you don't fight him. If you want to fight someone, you don't teach him." Why should you teach someone how to beat you up? You can't be that stupid.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The problem with that is that the best view of a teacher is not his fighting ability, nor that of his best guys. It's the ability of either the relative beginners (if you want to get something reasonably quick) or the guys in the middle (if you want to see what most people in the program are probably capable of. So, even if someone does that (and I never have, because I don't know who can take the falls/protect themselves), what you know is how well they can handle themselves - not whether they can teach the same to you. It comes back to the basic problem of demonstrations: the people best equipped to make a judgement aren't the ones evaluating you via demonstration.



You know the technique works somewhere. We have a much bigger culture of people claiming ******** unless it is tested.

And the guy we seminar with, Rob, Is kind of a mental case for that. He will go through a whole room of MMA guys trying to bash him just foot sweeping everybody.

This is derek and rob. Two people who do really good seminars. And they will allways mix it up.






That way you dont get the issue of it just works in theory.


----------



## jobo (Sep 3, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I guess it comes down to what are the chances of you having to defend yourself against someone with formal fight training? For example, one of the first things i was taught in kickboxing is never fight with completely straight legs, because if you get kicked in the knee when your leg is completely straight it can cause a lot of damage. Now how many untrained people know something like that?


i suppose it largely depend on circumstances, if you are a big mouth and go round shouting the odds and upsetting people, then its an odds on certain they eventually you will do it to the wrong person. If you mind your own, the odds against being randomly attacked in the street by a trained fighter must very high  very highindeed,


----------



## jobo (Sep 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Depends what they want to get out of the training. We have taken some pretty uncoordinated guys and got them ring ready.
> 
> Nobody from our gym goes in unathletic.(mostly. We have one guy who just rocks up sometimes a week before a fight does a bit of sparring and jumps in.) That you can control with exercise.


i suspect he want to improve his fitness and co ordination and have a good chance of defending himself, he seems to be achieving those.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> i suppose it largely depend on circumstances, if you are a big mouth and go round shouting the odds and upsetting people, then its an odds on certain they eventually you will do it to the wrong person. If you mind your own, the odds against being randomly attacked in the street by a trained fighter must very high  very highindeed,



Yep. My manager at work told us a story of 2 guys who went out into town in fancy dress and got accosted by a small group of thugs, looking for a fight. Little did the punks know that the 2 guys were pro mma fighters who proceeded to beat the crap out of the group. 

Dunno how true that story is but i cant help but laugh at a group of punks getting beaten up by 2 guys in too-toos


----------



## drop bear (Sep 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> i suspect he want to improve his fitness and co ordination and have a good chance of defending himself, he seems to be achieving those.



Then that isnt a problem. 

Fighting is exactly like fitness. I like to keep active but I like pizza. So my progress reflects that. If I gave up pizza my progress would reflect that.

We don't set a competence level on a guy when he walks into the gym. We take him as far as he can go.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> And the guy we seminar with, Rob, Is kind of a mental case for that. He will go through a whole room of MMA guys trying to bash him just foot sweeping everybody.


That's still different from for him To fight against everybody. It's very common for an instructor to use the throwing technique that he intended to teach in that workshop to throw everybody in that class.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 3, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Yep. My manager at work told us a story of 2 guys who went out into town in fancy dress and got accosted by a small group of thugs, looking for a fight. Little did the punks know that the 2 guys were pro mma fighters who proceeded to beat the crap out of the group.
> 
> Dunno how true that story is but i cant help but laugh at a group of punks getting beaten up by 2 guys in too-toos



it happened. There is video.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's still different from for him To fight against everybody. It's very common for an instructor to use the throwing technique that he intended to teach in that workshop to throw everybody in that class.



Its not that common. Sometimes the instructor is just too deadly.


----------



## jobo (Sep 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Then that isnt a problem.
> 
> Fighting is exactly like fitness. I like to keep active but I like pizza. So my progress reflects that. If I gave up pizza my progress would reflect that.
> 
> We don't set a competence level on a guy when he walks into the gym. We take him as far as he can go.


pizza IS a health food, especially if it pineapple on it.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 3, 2017)

They are two Welsh fighters, Daniel Lerwell and James Lilley out on a stag night in Swansea. They weren't 'drag queens'


----------



## jobo (Sep 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> They are two Welsh fighters, Daniel Lerwell and James Lilley out on a stag night in Swansea. They weren't  'drag queens'


yet they were dressed in  drag , so, at least for that evening they were,drag queens


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> yet they were dressed in  drag , so, at least for that evening they were,drag queens




Oh pur-lees, they weren't even princesses.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> They are two Welsh fighters, Daniel Lerwell and James Lilley out on a stag night in Swansea. They weren't 'drag queens'



Meet Lionheart and Lights Out: The cross-dressing cage-fighters who hit back at drunken thugs | Daily Mail Online

Stories like this always make me laugh.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 3, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Meet Lionheart and Lights Out: The cross-dressing cage-fighters who hit back at drunken thugs | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Stories like this always make me laugh.



Urgh the Daily Heil! The Nazi newspaper that is the epitome of racist homophobic hatred. I don't even look at it in the shop, it's disgusting.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Urgh the Daily Heil! The Nazi newspaper that is the epitome of racist homophobic hatred. I don't even look at it in the shop, it's disgusting.



Meh, I don't get involved in politics.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 3, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Meh, I don't get involved in politics.



You should or else when they come for you there will be no one left to help you.

_"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."_ Edmund Burke


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I guess it comes down to what are the chances of you having to defend yourself against someone with formal fight training? For example, one of the first things i was taught in kickboxing is never fight with completely straight legs, because if you get kicked in the knee when your leg is completely straight it can cause a lot of damage. Now how many untrained people know something like that?


In our training, we avoid a straight leg simply for structural reasons. I never really gave thought to the danger of getting kicked in one.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Old saying said, "If you want to teach someone, you don't fight him. If you want to fight someone, you don't teach him." Why should you teach someone how to beat you up? You can't be that stupid.


I'd love for one of my students to get good enough to do that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You know the technique works somewhere. We have a much bigger culture of people claiming ******** unless it is tested.
> 
> And the guy we seminar with, Rob, Is kind of a mental case for that. He will go through a whole room of MMA guys trying to bash him just foot sweeping everybody.
> 
> ...


"Works somewhere" is an entirely different thing than "I can learn to do it".


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> pizza IS a health food, especially if it pineapple on it.


Pineapple on pizza is an abomination. Just sayin'.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Oh pur-lees, they weren't even princesses.


Did they at least earn some princess points?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "Works somewhere" is an entirely different thing than "I can learn to do it".



You start with works somewhere though.  Before you get to I can learn to do that.

Mostly. I mean taking out the innovators.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'd love for one of my students to get good enough to do that.


The teacher can offer to spar/wrestle with his students. The students should not ask their teacher to spar/wrestle with them. That's "MA tradition" and everybody should protect it,  We will all get old or get sick some day. It makes no sense for a 20 years old student to beat up a 90 years old teacher in any MA system.

A: Dear master! May I have the honor to spar with you?
B: If you don't mind to help me to get up from my wheelchair, I don't mind to spar with you for 15 rounds.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The teacher can offer to spar/wrestle with his students. The students should not ask their teacher to spar/wrestle with them. That's "MA tradition" and everybody should protect it,  We will all get old or get sick some day. It makes no sense for a 20 years old student to beat up a 90 years old teacher in any MA system.
> 
> A: Dear master! May I have the honor to spar with you?
> B: If you don't mind to help me to get out of my wheelchair, I would love to spar with you.



That is an extreme example though. What if there is no obvious disadvantage for the instructor?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> That is an extreme example though. What if there is no obvious disadvantage for the instructor?


Again for MA tradition, a student should never ask his teacher to spar/wrestle with him. Some teacher don't like to teach his students how to counter his best techniques for the reason as I have described.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Again for MA tradition, a student should never ask his teacher to spar/wrestle with him. Some teacher don't like to teach his students how to counter his best techniques for the reason as I have described.



I don't know about you but I'd rather spar a senior student and have the instructor spectate so that he can give me accurate feedback on my technique, etc.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You start with works somewhere though.  Before you get to I can learn to do that.
> 
> Mostly. I mean taking out the innovators.


Agreed.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The teacher can offer to spar/wrestle with his students. The students should not ask their teacher to spar/wrestle with them. That's "MA tradition" and everybody should protect it,  We will all get old or get sick some day. It makes no sense for a 20 years old student to beat up a 90 years old teacher in any MA system.
> 
> A: Dear master! May I have the honor to spar with you?
> B: If you don't mind to help me to get up from my wheelchair, I don't mind to spar with you for 15 rounds.


I disagree. My students can ask to spar/wrestle me at any point. I don't really care to protect that tradition. Someday, someone will be able to beat me. If I'm too old to be fun to wrestle with, I might decline the invitation, or I might still spar/wrestle them for my fun.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> That is an extreme example though. What if there is no obvious disadvantage for the instructor?


Or even if there is, but nothing extreme. If a student comes in from another art, they might well be able to beat me in either format. I'm okay with that. If they can beat me in both, I'd ask them why they are training under me - at the very least, they ought to cross-train somewhere they have someone who can beat them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Again for MA tradition, a student should never ask his teacher to spar/wrestle with him. Some teacher don't like to teach his students how to counter his best techniques for the reason as I have described.


I teach my students to counter everything I can think of. One of my students gets excited when I do something he hasn't seen, especially when I get him into a pin or lock on the ground (pulling out my old Judo training, mostly), or when I do something that shuts down what he thought was a big opening. So I show him.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Sep 4, 2017)

There seems to be a running concept that a MA instructor should be invincible.  I really don't agree with this sentiment.  The idea that a self defense instructor should have a curriculum that works and is functional is a a given, but somehow we jump to the conclusion that he should be able to easily dominate the room.   I remember a season of the ufc TUFF.  There was a well known BJJ coach who decided to try the competition and live in the house.  He lost his fights miserably but that doesn't make him a bad grappling coach.
 I am not sure if it's the students who expect the teacher to beat everyone or the ego of the teacher to be and remain the best.  It's probably a chicken and egg complex.
Does it depend on age alone?  Helio  was old but he didn't lose people's respect even though his ability was diminished over time.  Do we only respect those who are better than us?


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> There seems to be a running concept that a MA instructor should be invincible.  I really don't agree with this sentiment.  The idea that a self defense instructor should have a curriculum that works and is functional is a a given, but somehow we jump to the conclusion that he should be able to easily dominate the room.   I remember a season of the ufc TUFF.  There was a well known BJJ coach who decided to try the competition and live in the house.  He lost his fights miserably but that doesn't make him a bad grappling coach.
> I am not sure if it's the students who expect the teacher to beat everyone or the ego of the teacher to be and remain the best.  It's probably a chicken and egg complex.
> Does it depend on age alone?  Helio  was old but he didn't lose people's respect even though his ability was diminished over time.  Do we only respect those who are better than us?


yes i think that its a concept that's in a number of sports at an amateur level but not at a professional level. you expect you golf coach to be better at golf than you are,


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes i think that its a concept that's in a number of sports at an amateur level but not at a professional level. you expect you golf coach to be better at golf than you are,


I'd expect him to be technically better, but in my 20's and 30's I wouldn't have expected him to out-drive me. And even a really good amateur can probably out-score his golf coaches.


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'd expect him to be technically better, but in my 20's and 30's I wouldn't have expected him to out-drive me. And even a really good amateur can probably out-score his golf coaches.


ok or really good amateur, but the point remains its a hard sell being a coach at anything unless you are or at least were very good at the sports iits self


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> ok or really good amateur, but the point remains its a hard sell being a coach at anything unless you are or at least were very good at the sports iits self



Not necessarily. There are plenty of top coaches who have never competed themselves: 

Five world-beating coaches who never played competitively - University of Worcester


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Not necessarily. There are plenty of top coaches who have never competed themselves:
> 
> Five world-beating coaches who never played competitively - University of Worcester


the fact they can only find five suggests it quite rare, and one of them was the father and they didnt have much choice.
imagine how good the,Williams sisters might have been had they had a decent coach


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> the fact they can only find five suggests it quite rare, and one of them was the father and they didnt have much choice.
> imagine how good the,Williams sisters might have been had they had a decent coach



I literally spent 30 seconds looking on google, so is that any surprise? Yes of course there are fewer of them but they are still around and very successful.


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I literally spent 30 seconds looking on google, so is that any surprise? Yes of course there are fewer of them but they are still around and very successful.


Angelo Dundee isn't around or successful, Mr Williams was replaced as their coach as soon as they got some money and I've nether heard of two of them


----------



## Danny T (Sep 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The teacher can offer to spar/wrestle with his students. The students should not ask their teacher to spar/wrestle with them. That's "MA tradition" and everybody should protect it,  We will all get old or get sick some day. It makes no sense for a 20 years old student to beat up a 90 years old teacher in any MA system.


Really??
I have no problem with any student (if they are prepared and skill ready) asking me to spar. No problem at all. Also have several fighters who can beat me most anytime and still ask for me to spar them. Keeps them on their toes. They are faster, stronger, and can go longer but in most cases my timing is still better.
When it comes to the better skill students it is often better for them to spar those younger higher skilled students than sparring me. Sparring isn't about beating up the other person but about becoming better.


----------



## geezer (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> ok or really good amateur, but the point remains its a hard sell being a coach at anything unless you are *or at least were *very good at the sports itself



As I get older, the "were" thing is getting to be more the case. Especially in grappling. Joint issues, ya know. So it's getting to be "Do as I say, not as I do". Too bad. 

You and I are about the same age, Jobo (I'm 62), but age can affect each of us differently. In my early fifties, Like you, I was still in great shape and kept it up until pretty recently --especially my conditioning. I thought I could hold on for decades! But, in the last couple of years, injuries (back, knees, ankles) have made it painful just to be on my feet for too long, much less run. And, without the cardio, my weight has gone up some too. 

I can still do our forms and drills, kick, punch, and spar a bit. But the other night when I tried to shoot-in on a student to show him that his "anti-grappling" take-down defenses were garbage, my knees and back really suffered ...and my technique was terrible (still slammed him on the floor though). And the next day the pain taught me that I can't keep doing that. 

Does that mean I have to give up coaching and close down my club? I hope not.   ...Maybe if I can recruit some young wrestlers who can help me out?


----------



## Buka (Sep 4, 2017)

I never heard of any tradition where a student couldn't ask an instructor if they would spar with them - done politely of course. I used to ask my instructors to spar with me all the time. 

In my opinion, one of the major long term goals of an instructor, any instructor, is to make the serious student a better, more knowledgeable Martial Artist than he/she is. Sparring/rolling with them is a big part of it, again, in my opinion.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 4, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> There are plenty of top coaches who have never competed themselves:


It can be another extreme as well.

If you are a MA instructor and you are 3 times national champion in your MA system, some of your new students (who doesn't intend to stay long) may try to defeat you so they can brag about they are better than the national champion. They are taken the "short cut to be famous" without going through year after year of tournament competition. It won't be fair to you and you should not give them that opportunity.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> ok or really good amateur, but the point remains its a hard sell being a coach at anything unless you are or at least were very good at the sports iits self


It's the easiest way to establish early credibility. But there are some coaches who were never elite players - they went from good players to coaches. The knowledge base required for the two roles has a huge overlap, but the overlap of skills isn't as big, when you consider execution level. So, a coach has to know how to do the thing he's coaching, but he doesn't have to be as good as his players at it. It appears (based upon who we see succeeding) to be helpful if he once was very good at it, and that makes logic sense.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> Angelo Dundee isn't around or successful, Mr Williams was replaced as their coach as soon as they got some money and I've nether heard of two of them


Who we've heard of is about fame, and what we pay attention to - not about who's a good coach.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 4, 2017)

Buka said:


> I never heard of any tradition where a student couldn't ask an instructor if they would spar with them .


May be it's only the Chinese MA thing.

- My teacher's teacher told my teacher.
- My teacher told me.
- I told my students.
- My students told their students.
- ...

I loved to wrestle with my students. But some student didn't like to wrestle with me. They told me that by wrestling with me, they could lose their self-confidence big time. I tried not to wrestle with my students 3 months before their tournament. I wanted to help them to maintain their self-confidence. I do love to wrestle with my students after their winning in their tournament to decrease their ego a bit. This way, they would know that they still have room to advance.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I teach my students to counter everything I can think of.


To teach is one thing. To train is another. If you don't include certain counters as part of your student's daily training, even they know it. They still can't use it.

For example, if you don't teach your students how to counter an "circle dragging", it may take them a long time to figure it out. Even that, they still won't be able to react correctly within that 1/4 second time frame.


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Who we've heard of is about fame, and what we pay attention to - not about who's a good coach.


if they had been successful as international coaches  i would have heard of them, coaching one good athletes is as much about luck as ability,


----------



## drop bear (Sep 4, 2017)

geezer said:


> As I get older, the "were" thing is getting to be more the case. Especially in grappling. Joint issues, ya know. So it's getting to be "Do as I say, not as I do". Too bad.
> 
> You and I are about the same age, Jobo (I'm 62), but age can affect each of us differently. In my early fifties, Like you, I was still in great shape and kept it up until pretty recently --especially my conditioning. I thought I could hold on for decades! But, in the last couple of years, injuries (back, knees, ankles) have made it painful just to be on my feet for too long, much less run. And, without the cardio, my weight has gone up some too.
> 
> ...



I think it is different if you are old. For me I am old but thankfully don't teach. So i can loose sparring sessions anytime I want. Makes no difference.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> if they had been successful as international coaches  i would have heard of them, coaching one good athletes is as much about luck as ability,



Heard of greg jackson?


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Heard of greg jackson?


is he English? Is it a main,stream sport, if its some obscure American mma trainer from new mexico or some such outlandish place then no I've not heard of him


----------



## drop bear (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> is he English? Is it a main,stream sport, if its some obscure American mma trainer from new mexico or some such outlandish place then no I've not heard of him



Heard of John Jones?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 4, 2017)

Wait for it. One fighter does not make a trend.


Adlan Amagov (UFC)
Ali Bagautinov (UFC)# - Former UFC Flyweight Title Challenger, Current UFC Flyweight Title Contender
Alistair Overeem (UFC)# - Current UFCHeavyweight Title Contender, Former StrikeforceHeavyweight Champion, 2010 K-1 Grand PrixChampion
*B.J. Penn* (UFC)#-Former UFC Lightweight Champion and UFC Welterweight Champion
Vitaly Minakov (Bellator MMA) - Current Bellator Heavyweight Champion, 4-Time World Sambo Champion +100 kg
Cub Swanson (UFC)# - Current UFCFeatherweight Title Contender
Tom Watson (UFC)
*Jon Jones* (UFC)# - Current UFC Light Heavyweight champion
*Rashad Evans* (UFC) - Former UFC Light Heavyweight Champion, Current UFC Light Heavyweight Title TUF 14 Featherweight Winner
Damacio Page (UFC) - TUF 24 Flyweight LFC Legacy Fighting Championships LFC Flyweight champion
Anton Kuivanen
*Andrei Arlovski* (UFC)# - Former UFC 2-Time Heavyweight Champion, Current UFCHeavyweight Title Contender
Sarah Kaufman (UFC)# - Current UFC Women's Bantamweight Title Contender, Former Strikeforce Women's Bantamweight Champion
Michelle Waterson (UFC)# - Current UFCWomen's Strawweight Title Contender, Former Invicta Atomweight Champion
Keith Jardine (UFC) - Former StrikeforceMiddleweight Title Challenger
Igor Araujo (UFC)#
Gina Carano (Indefinite Hiatus)
Nate Marquardt (UFC) - Former StrikeforceWelterweight Champion, Former UFCMiddleweight Title Challenger, Former PancraseMiddleweight Champion
Clay Guida (UFC)# - Current UFCFeatherweight Title Contender, Former StrikeforceLightweight Champion
Jason Guida (Bellator MMA)

Karo Parisyan (WSOF) - Former WEC Welterweight Champion
David Loiseau (Tachi Palace Fights) - Former UFC Middleweight Title Challenger
Joey Villasenor (Shark Fights)
Jason MacDonald (UFC)
Julie Kedzie (Retired)
*Holly Holm* (UFC)# - Former UFC Women's Bantamweight Champion
Carlos Condit (UFC)# - Current UFC Title Contender and Challenger, Former UFC Interim Welterweight Champion, Former WEC Welterweight Champion
Damacio Page (UFC)
Joe Stevenson (RFA) - Former UFC Lightweight Title Challenger, TUF 2Welterweight Winner
Donald Cerrone (UFC)# - Current UFC Title Contender and Challenger, Former WEC Lightweight Title Challenger
Yoshihiro Akiyama (UFC)
Leonard Garcia (Retired) - Former WEC Featherweight Title Challenger
Cody Donovan (Retired)
Roger Huerta (One FC)
Diego Sanchez (UFC)# - UFC Lightweight Title Challenger, TUF 1Welterweight Winner
John Dodson (UFC)# - Former UFC Flyweight Title Challenger, Current UFC Flyweight Title Contender, TUF 14 Bantamweight Winner
Tim Kennedy (UFC)# - (Retired) UFC Middleweight Title Contender, Former Strikeforce Middleweight Title Challenger
Rustam Khabilov (UFC)#
Roger Hollett (UFC)
Lando Vannata (UFC)
*Georges St-Pierre* (UFC) - Former UFC Welterweight Champion, 10 title defenses
Khabib Allakhverdiev (Boxing)
Kyle Noke (UFC)#
Erik Perez (UFC)#
*Frank Mir* (UFC)# - Former UFC Heavyweight Champion, Current UFCHeavyweight Title Contender, 3-Time Heavyweight Title Challenger
Tara LaRosa
Travis Marx (Bellator MMA)
Omari Akhmedov (UFC)#
Magomed Mustafaev (UFC)#


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Heard of John Jones?


i don't follow American sport, they may come as a surprise to you Americans, but all the examples posted were English apart from Angelo Dundee, who was remarkably famous because of c clay  you can spend the rest of the day posting up Americans,i don't know my Chicago bears from my Boston red socks


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Wait for it. One fighter does not make a trend.
> 
> 
> Adlan Amagov (UFC)
> ...


i don't know what your trying to prove with this, i said coaches that didn't play them selves are rare, nothing you or anyone else has posted, has shown it to be untrue. This is mma, its not even a real sport, just organised pub fights


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 4, 2017)

geezer said:


> You and I are about the same age, Jobo (I'm 62), but age can affect each of us differently. In my early fifties, Like you, I was still in great shape and kept it up until pretty recently --especially my conditioning. I thought I could hold on for decades! But, in the last couple of years, injuries (back, knees, ankles) have made it painful just to be on my feet for too long, much less run. And, without the cardio, my weight has gone up some too.


I'm 8 years older than you. I just came home and finished my 3 miles running and stretching in the park. Last month I had a 1 on 1 private 3 hours lesson with a new student. Since there wasn't another person around, I had to be his throwing dummy. After that 3 hours, I did feel tired big time. My new student did say he was quite surprised how fast I could still get back up after he had thrown me down to the ground. I told him that my teacher used to call be a "human bouncing ball".

Last year I still wrestled with 2 wrestlers in the park who were 45 years younger than me. Not sure I can still do that this year or next year though.

My wife is 9 years younger than me. I promised her that I will out live her. That's why I'm still training hard. If my wife can live to 90, I have to live to 100. It's not easy for me to keep that promise


----------



## drop bear (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> i don't follow American sport, they may come as a surprise to you Americans, but all the examples posted were English apart from Angelo Dundee, who was remarkably famous because of c clay  you can spend the rest of the day posting up Americans,i don't know my Chicago bears from my Boston red socks



Kyle noke is Australian.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> i don't know what your trying to prove with this, i said coaches that didn't play them selves are rare, nothing you or anyone else has posted, has shown it to be untrue. This is mma, its not even a real sport, just organised pub fights



This is what you said.
*
if they had been successful as international coaches i would have heard of them, coaching one good athletes is as much about luck as ability,*
*
*


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Kyle noke is Australian.


what you think i follow Australian sport, ???


----------



## drop bear (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> what you think i follow Australian sport, ???



Well for lack of english representation in the UFC. I just assume you would.


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> This is what you said.
> *
> if they had been successful as international coaches i would have heard of them, coaching one good athletes is as much about luck as ability,
> *


i was talking about specific people in that articles, who were English. and i hadn't heard off, not any obscure American basketball, football or elephant polo coach in the whole world
there are quote possibly


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Well for lack of english representation in the UFC. I just assume you would.


i consider the UFC  to be human dog fighting, i watched it once and the casual brutality turned my stomach,


----------



## drop bear (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> i consider the UFC  to be human dog fighting, i watched it once and the casual brutality turned my stomach,



Well you will be pleased to know That Australia's Robert Whittaker is going to casually brutalize Michael Bisping next year some time.






So you still wont need to show any intrest in the sport.


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Well you will be pleased to know That Australia's Robert Whittaker is going to casually brutalize Michael Bisping next year some time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


its really not a "sport"in the true meaning of that concept. its just gross violence to satisfy a blood lust in people who like that sort of thing.

to be honest id sooner watch golf and that the dullest sport on earth


----------



## Martial D (Sep 4, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> A friend on Facebook sent this to me asking for my opinion, and quite frankly I don't know what to make of it. From one stand point the guy doing the demonstrations clearly has a lot of speed and has trained his techniques well, but it's hard to tell if he could do the same thing under resistance.
> 
> ...


Anybody can do anything and pull it off against a mannequin. These sorts of demo videos don't tell you anything.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> i consider the UFC  to be human dog fighting, i watched it once and the casual brutality turned my stomach,


This attitude in general confounds me, especially from someone that studies martial arts.

Is not the underlying premise of just about every martial art to train yourself to be a better fighter? I know some styles have become disconnected from that idea, but even they generally started that way. So why would witnessing the endgame of these skills being put to use in actual competition be problematic?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> its really not a "sport"in the true meaning of that concept. its just gross violence to satisfy a blood lust in people who like that sort of thing.
> 
> to be honest id sooner watch golf and that the dullest sport on earth



I thought sport in the true meaning of the concept is just gross violence to satisfy blood list in people.

People were beating each other up well before they were hitting things with a stick.


----------



## FighterTwister (Sep 4, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> A friend on Facebook sent this to me asking for my opinion, and quite frankly I don't know what to make of it. From one stand point the guy doing the demonstrations clearly has a lot of speed and has trained his techniques well, but it's hard to tell if he could do the same thing under resistance.
> 
> ...



Thats good stuff, but I guess those that really use it legitimately are those in the arm forces navy seals etc and train like that, hard fast and accurate!

You wouldn't want to do that in public now would you, but its a good martial art to get involved in if you love this style of fight art.

These aggressive arts are great for a self defense purpose and simply allot of fun in training circumstances, but it does depend on the person how you think and what you really want to learn.

These arts are for real and realistic and have a long linage to ancient times link - Filipino martial arts - Wikipedia

Visit this site and checkout their training on youtube:- ABOUT THE PTTA


----------



## geezer (Sep 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm 8 years older than you. I just came home and finished my 3 miles running and stretching in the park. Last month I had a 1 on 1 private 3 hours lesson with a new student. Since there wasn't another person around, I had to be his throwing dummy. After that 3 hours, I did feel tired big time. My new student did say he was quite surprised how fast I could still get back up after he had thrown me down to the ground. I told him that my teacher used to call be a "human bouncing ball".
> 
> Last year I still wrestled with 2 wrestlers in the park who were 45 years younger than me. Not sure I can still do that this year or next year though.
> 
> My wife is 9 years younger than me. I promised her that I will out live her. That's why I'm still training hard. If my wife can live to 90, I have to live to 100. It's not easy for me to keep that promise



Your words are an inspiration, John. My Dad is tough like that. He still loves snow skiing at age 92. His dad was the same. Hard as nails till a stoke laid him low at 94. He fought his way back and lived to 97. His wife, my grandmother, lived to be 102. But we are each different, and have different genes. Willpower alone isn't enough!


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

Martial D said:


> This attitude in general confounds me, especially from someone that studies martial arts.
> 
> Is not the underlying premise of just about every martial art to train yourself to be a better fighter? I know some styles have become disconnected from that idea, but even they generally started that way. So why would witnessing the endgame of these skills being put to use in actual competition be problematic?


there are multiple phylosopicaly objections to it.
not sure where to start, ,,, i don't like to hurt anybody or anything, i just don't get pleasure from inflicting harm or death, i go to sometimes ridicules  lengths  not to harm insects or slugs. I find people who hunt animals for pleasure abhorrent. That's not to say that I don't recognise that animals have to be killed, for food,to protect humans etc. But that's a necessity of survival, not a pass time for pleasure.

i have then the same ethos with ma, there are times when i have had to hurt people who are a threat to my well being, physically or mentally, that's not something i derive pleasure from, . I don't therefore get vicarious pleasure from watching other people hurt others.

i can appreciate the skill that's used, but watching two blokes smash each other to a pulp is not an entertainment i enjoy.

boxing is bad enough, but there are limited to the violence that hopefully stops short of it just being a blood bath. Those controls are a lot laxer in mma and the,amount of damaged caused much greater. The one i did watch had fight after fight that should have been stopped, ether because it was an obvious mismatch or because of the damage done, but they let it continue, as the baying crowds wanted to,see more blood and harm inflicted , u till one was beaten unconscious

young men some times want to fight, just as,dogs do, that is their concern, making it into an multi million pound entrainment industry, has no place in a civilized society


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To teach is one thing. To train is another. If you don't include certain counters as part of your student's daily training, even they know it. They still can't use it.
> 
> For example, if you don't teach your students how to counter an "circle dragging", it may take them a long time to figure it out. Even that, they still won't be able to react correctly within that 1/4 second time frame.


There's no way to train everything I teach - too much to cover. They get to choose about 20% of where they spend their training time. If they want to focus on those counters, they can.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> i don't follow American sport, they may come as a surprise to you Americans, but all the examples posted were English apart from Angelo Dundee, who was remarkably famous because of c clay  you can spend the rest of the day posting up Americans,i don't know my Chicago bears from my Boston red socks


I love that you assume the Aussie is posting a bunch of American stuff.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> what you think i follow Australian sport, ???


So now they're only famous if you bothered to follow their sport? Think highly of yourself, do you?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 4, 2017)

geezer said:


> Your words are an inspiration, John. My Dad is tough like that. He still loves snow skiing at age 92. His dad was the same. Hard as nails till a stoke laid him low at 94. He fought his way back and lived to 97. His wife, my grandmother, lived to be 102. But we are each different, and have different genes. Willpower alone isn't enough!


We can always encourage each other and not to give up too soon. This clip is what my teacher did when he was 72 years old. I hope in 2 years, I can still have his balance, strength, and flexibility. That's my goal.






The following 2 clips show why my teacher used to call me a "human bouncing ball". It's the Chinese wrestling spirit that the moment you get down, you try to get back up ASAP. Sorry, I'm bragging about myself again. It's very sad that when you get old, the only thing left is "your past".


----------



## jobo (Sep 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> So now they're only famous if you bothered to follow their sport? Think highly of yourself, do you?


no they are only famous if i have heard of them, otherwise by defintion they are not.
tiger woods ( and i hate golf) i have heard of- famous
some obscure ausy mma fighter I've never heard of--, not famous
CM, who i have heard of--- infamous,
easy really


----------



## Danny T (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> boxing is bad enough, but there are limited to the violence that hopefully stops short of it just being a blood bath. Those controls are a lot laxer in mma and the,amount of damaged caused much greater.


Actually it is the opposite.
There are more controls and fights are stopped much quicker in MMA than Boxing. No standing 8 counts like boxing where the fighter get concussed and continues. MMA where if the ref stops the contest it is over. If a fighter gets cut and is bleeding badly the ref will call in the doctor long before that will happen in boxing. One of the biggest is in boxing if a fighter quits due to injury or from punch damage he is booed and considered a quitter and promoters won't use them. In MMA a fighter can quit anytime.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> no they are only famous if i have heard of them, otherwise by defintion they are not.
> tiger woods ( and i hate golf) i have heard of- famous
> some obscure ausy mma fighter I've never heard of--, not famous
> CM, who i have heard of--- infamous,
> easy really



Tiger who? Sorry don't know the guy. If you are going to use a sports person you can't just pull out obscure ones.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Sep 5, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Tiger who? Sorry don't know the guy. If you are going to use a sports person you can't just pull out obscure ones.




yeah im with you on this one...Tiger...Tiger???   oh !!  i think i know......  Tigress,,, she was a character on kung fu panda...


----------



## Buka (Sep 5, 2017)

I really do.


----------



## FighterTwister (Sep 5, 2017)

LoL peoples .......... Kung -Fu Panda - Tiger Hahahaha

Nah c'mon LoL

But honestly Karambit blade work is nasty stuff and not to my liking but can be fun with dummy knives in group sessions for fun to enjoy the movement and speed drills, thats all in my books.

Watch.................






In reality its not for the faint hearted, its very quick and deadly, its murder in the most vicious of ways.

It only makes sense in the defense force, in my books.

Look online and you see some really bad people doing it with massive lacerations yikes evil stuff.

Nah not for me but Kali Escrima Arnis stick fighting yes I love this and still do it till this day................ watch







Thats allot of fun pretty harmless as well.

I'm actually now teaching my son who is only 11 just started so no much to show.

One day he wants to learn the next his not interested at all so slowly I just enjoy things with him.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> no they are only famous if i have heard of them, otherwise by defintion they are not.
> tiger woods ( and i hate golf) i have heard of- famous
> some obscure ausy mma fighter I've never heard of--, not famous
> CM, who i have heard of--- infamous,
> easy really


So you are the arbiter of "famous". Interesting.


----------



## jobo (Sep 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> So you are the arbiter of "famous". Interesting.


well yes as the average man in the,street, it's good test, to be famous you need to be known and recognised outside of a few obsessives  that follow,a particular sport to the nth degree.
for instance i follow snooker, i can identify any one of a 100 players. I. You and very nearly all of the rest of the 7 billion people in the world wouldn't be able to name them if you were offered a thousand pound to do so.

it would be,wrong to claim that the fact  that a few thousand people who follow snooker could do so means that they are famous, two or three of those players are well enough know, that the average person in this,country could pick them out at a,super market queue, . You could make a claim that they are famous, at least in this country


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> well yes as the average man in the,street, it's good test, to be famous you need to be known and recognised outside of a few obsessives  that follow,a particular sport to the nth degree.
> for instance i follow snooker, i can identify any one of a 100 players. I. You and very nearly all of the rest of the 7 billion people in the world wouldn't be able to name them if you were offered a thousand pound to do so.
> 
> it would be,wrong to claim that the fact  that a few thousand people who follow snooker could do so means that they are famous, two or three of those players are well enough know, that the average person in this,country could pick them out at a,super market queue, . You could make a claim that they are famous, at least in this country


No, it's not a good test. By that measure, if anyone is not known by a single average person, they are not famous. That would mean all boxers, football, cricket, basketball, soccer, baseball, and tennis players are not famous, because at least one common person won't know them. Same for all actors, politicians, fighters, etc. In other words, there is at least one common person who is not aware of every person, so nobody is famous - according to your measure. Someone could be known by 7.44 billion people, but if you don't know who they are, they aren't famous. Thing pretty highly of yourself, do you?


----------



## jobo (Sep 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> No, it's not a good test. By that measure, if anyone is not known by a single average person, they are not famous. That would mean all boxers, football, cricket, basketball, soccer, baseball, and tennis players are not famous, because at least one common person won't know them. Same for all actors, politicians, fighters, etc. In other words, there is at least one common person who is not aware of every person, so nobody is famous - according to your measure. Someone could be known by 7.44 billion people, but if you don't know who they are, they aren't famous. Thing pretty highly of yourself, do you?


no that's not what i said, i said an average person, someone who doesn't follow that sport, but can't help to know who say CM, because he is FAMOUS.

if 99 people know him and you don't then you are not by defintion average


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 5, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Oh pur-lees, they weren't even princesses.


Drag ladies-in-waiting?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 5, 2017)

The instructor is undoubtedly skilled, but much of what he's doing in the video is showing off. In order to judge the value of the art for self-defense I'd need to watch a typical class.

Some thoughts on what is shown ... 


A flurry of knife cuts against an unarmed, passive opponent. If this was to demonstrate the danger a knife can pose to an unarmed defender, then good job. If it's a recommended tactic for a knife-wielding defender to use against an unarmed attacker, then there are potential legal consequences to consider. If he's recommending it as a tactic against an opponent who is also armed with a knife, then it's likely to lead to a double kill since he's at point blank range focused only on offense.
The kick being shown in the second technique isn't actually a roundhouse. The foot is actually rotating around the knee joint perpendicular to the normal plane of motion via the hip rotators. I've mostly only seen it in movie choreography, since it isn't very powerful or good for the knee. He's showing it as a reliable one shot knockout? Please.
The punches look good. The takedown is unreliable at best, and he turns his back to the opponent in range with his hands down to apply it? Not a good idea unless it's a movie and the choreographer is on your side.
The knife disarm can work. It can also get you killed. Admittedly this is true of all knife disarms, but this one is riskier than average.
Once again, he's assuming the knife wielder is passive and incompetent. Do you notice how when he's holding the knife, the knife is capable of lighting fast combinations, but when his uke holds the knife he just stands with the weapon outstretched and doesn't move or react?
More of the same.
Not awful. A bit showy and not high-percentage against a tough opponent, but potentially workable.
The next techniques or so all show pre-emptive techniques against an opponent standing in arms reach with his hands down who has not yet started to fight. There is certainly a place for this sort of pre-emptive approach in self-defense, but you better be able to correctly judge when it is required or you may be the one going to prison for assault. In any case, lots of stuff can work when you get to hit someone who isn't expecting it from point blank range. These techniques look fine for that purpose, although I might do some things differently. In the last one he appears to be drawing a knife and using lethal force against a wrist grab. In some cases this may be legally and morally defensible, but I hope he makes it clear when this would and would not be appropriate.
Using the shoulder to clear an advancing two hand choke. Fine.
Knee tap takedown from an over-under clinch. Works because the opponent has his feet out of correct position. Okay if he's using it as an example of why not to put your feet like that or if he shows a setup to get the opponent there. Otherwise not worth the bother against someone who knows what they're doing.
Arm crank from side control. Legit, but there are ways to do it which maintain better control.
Next few techniques are mostly more pre-emptive techniques against opponents standing close with their hands down. See my comments above. I do like the way he chains techniques efficiently. I don't like the way he keeps his hands down once the fight begins. A real opponent may not always be instantly stunned or knocked down the way his demo dummy is.
A demo of how someone with a knife standing in arms reach can cut you before you react, especially if you start with your hands down and wait for the knife wielder to initiate. Action beats reaction, especially at that range and especially with a weapon that doesn't require much force generation to be effective. Good demo as to why you should respect the knife, but doesn't fit with his casual approach to defending against the knife earlier in the video.
Some more pre-emptive hits. See above.
Pinned against a wall with a choke, and he instantly drops his attacker with an arm-powered double slap to the ribs. This only works if your physical attributes are so far above your opponent that you should never be in that position to begin with.
More defenses from the wall. The elbow is good, although a competent opponent won't make it so easy to land. The little hammer kick is unusual, but legit. The knee is good. As usual, the demo dummy is selling the shots like stuntmen playing the bad guy minions in a kung fu movie. Watch some MMA to see how many of those shots a tough fighter can take and still maintain control and offense.
Slap to the arm-entanglement shoulder crank. Legit, but not high-percentage against a competent opponent.
Wrist-lock flow. Legit if you are highly skilled, although he's showing off rather than responding to actual cues which require the flow. Also, standing wristlocks mostly work when you get to apply them pre-emptively against someone who is not already trying to hit you. (Sort of a grappling equivalent of a sucker punch.)
If you can instantly drop an opponent by punching his thigh, then your physical attributes are so far beyond his that you could use almost any technique to win the fight.

Personally I prefer to teach techniques that don't rely on being massively stronger and faster with the advantage of surprise and superior weaponry. Obviously those are all good advantages to have in a fight, but if you are in a legitimate self-defense situation you don't get to choose whether you have them.

To reiterate my initial point, I haven't seen any footage of regular class instruction in this art. Perhaps they do a really good job of teaching techniques in a way which is useful to the average student. I'm just commenting on the posted video, which seems much more like a demo for "look how awesome I am."


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> no that's not what i said, i said an average person, someone who doesn't follow that sport, but can't help to know who say CM, because he is FAMOUS.
> 
> if 99 people know him and you don't then you are not by defintion average


For that one person, I'm not average. But that makes "famous" self-affirming. A famous person is known by average people. If an "average" person knows them, then that person is average, if not they're not average.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> its really not a "sport"in the true meaning of that concept. its just gross violence to satisfy a blood lust in people who like that sort of thing.


So ... like Rugby, then?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> So ... like Rugby, then?


And significant portions of Hockey.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 5, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The teacher can offer to spar/wrestle with his students. The students should not ask their teacher to spar/wrestle with them. That's "MA tradition" and everybody should protect it,  We will all get old or get sick some day. It makes no sense for a 20 years old student to beat up a 90 years old teacher in any MA system.
> 
> A: Dear master! May I have the honor to spar with you?
> B: If you don't mind to help me to get up from my wheelchair, I don't mind to spar with you for 15 rounds.



Disagree. If I'm on the mat when it's time for sparring, anyone is welcome to ask me to spar. I can always say no if I don't feel like it. Admittedly I'm only 53. When I get to be 90 I probably will only spar under very limited circumstances if at all.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Again for MA tradition, a student should never ask his teacher to spar/wrestle with him. Some teacher don't like to teach his students how to counter his best techniques for the reason as I have described.



I definitely don't like the idea of holding back info from a student to maintain an advantage. This sort of approach not only hurts the student, but it also hurts me. If my students know how to counter what I do, then it forces me to improve my technique.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be it's only the Chinese MA thing.
> 
> - My teacher's teacher told my teacher.
> - My teacher told me.
> ...



I've seen it in some BJJ schools as well, the idea that etiquette forbids lower ranks from asking higher ranks (or sometimes just black belts) to spar. I don't agree with that at all. Sparring is for learning, and I can learn from sparring with anyone, regardless of their level.


----------



## FighterTwister (Sep 5, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The instructor is undoubtedly skilled, but much of what he's doing in the video is showing off. In order to judge the value of the art for self-defense I'd need to watch a typical class.
> 
> Some thoughts on what is shown ...
> 
> ...



*Doug Marcaida BIO*


Doug Marcaida - Bio, Height, Nationality
About | Doug Marcaida

Forged in Fire (TV series) - Wikipedia

Just Google..............

doug marcaida wiki - Google Search


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I definitely don't like the idea of holding back info from a student to maintain an advantage. This sort of approach not only hurts the student, but it also hurts me. If my students know how to counter what I do, then it forces me to improve my technique.


IMO, it also hurts the art. If every instructor holds back a bit of what he knows, each successive generation may know a bit less. It would be preferable that each successive generation know a bit more, instead. To paraphrase what you've said before, the aim of the instructor should be for his students to be better than he was at any given point in his training. Not always possible, but it should be the aim.


----------



## Danny T (Sep 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> well yes as the average man in the,street, it's good test, to be famous you need to be known and recognised outside of a few obsessives  that follow,a particular sport to the nth degree.
> for instance i follow snooker, i can identify any one of a 100 players. I. You and very nearly all of the rest of the 7 billion people in the world wouldn't be able to name them if you were offered a thousand pound to do so.
> 
> it would be,wrong to claim that the fact  that a few thousand people who follow snooker could do so means that they are famous, two or three of those players are well enough know, that the average person in this,country could pick them out at a,super market queue, . You could make a claim that they are famous, at least in this country


One can be famous within a particular group or particular groups. One may not be famous world wide but can be within a smaller group. Famous simply means to be known or recognized by many persons. There is no specificity as to what constitutes many. So within your example of 100 players if one is know by many within the group who follow snooker that one is famous...within the particular group.

Your opinion on the definition of famous is a good opinion...it is wrong but a good opinion...as far as opinions go.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 5, 2017)

FighterTwister said:


> *Doug Marcaida BIO*
> 
> 
> Doug Marcaida - Bio, Height, Nationality
> ...



Umm ... what?

Firstly, I know who Doug Marcaida is. The guy teaching in the video isn't Doug Marcaida, it's Fred Mastro. What's Marcaida got to do with it?

All I know about Mr. Mastro is what I see in the video. I haven't seen him fight or spar, but in his demos his movements are smooth, fast, and precise. Those are all good things, which is why I said that he is clearly skilled in what he does.

I offered no negative judgments about Mr. Mastro or his abilities. I did offer my opinion on the usefulness of the individual techniques shown in the video for the average students self-defense needs. This is because the original post specifically asked about how useful the system might be for the OP's friend who was considering it for self-defense purposes. I made it clear that I was not judging the system as a whole, just the individual moves demonstrated in the video.

I also didn't question Mr. Mastro's credentials, as those aren't particularly relevant to the critique I was offering of specific techniques.

I'm not sure what your talk of "classical arts" has to do with anything. Silat is just as "classical" as any other art out there. Maybe Mr. Mastro has made innovations to his particular system of Silat, but many of my favorite instructors of various arts have done the same. Are you fantasizing that I am some sort of "classical art" fanatic who denigrates newer systems? If so, you didn't get that from anything I wrote in this or any other thread.

If you have disagreements with any of the specific opinions I wrote about particular parts of the video, then feel free to post them. They're based on my perceptions and understanding developed from 36 years of training in a variety of systems, but I could easily be wrong on any of them. I frequently am wrong. If you have arguments to the contrary, then make them and we can have a productive discussion. Ranting about stuff I didn't say or the credentials of a martial artist who isn't being discussed doesn't lead to any kind of helpful conversation.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2017)

FighterTwister said:


> *Doug Marcaida BIO*
> 
> 
> Doug Marcaida - Bio, Height, Nationality
> ...


Perhaps pay more attention to the actual comments. There are good points in there, and Tony closes with a comment that the teaching may be very different from what's in the video - which several of us have commented appears to be designed to demonstrate, and most demonstrations (my own, included) are designed to get the attention of the audience, not to teach.

Nobody has said the guy is crap. Some have had issues with what's in the video. If you have some counter-points, why not post them? I (and I know I can vouch for Tony on this, too) am always open to finding out my interpretation is shaded by my own ignorance of some principle being applied.


----------



## jobo (Sep 5, 2017)

Danny T said:


> One can be famous within a particular group or particular groups. One may not be famous world wide but can be within a smaller group. Famous simply means to be known or recognized by many persons. There is no specificity as to what constitutes many. So within your example of 100 players if one is know by many within the group who follow snooker that one is famous...within the particular group.
> 
> Your opinion on the definition of famous is a good opinion...it is wrong but a good opinion...as far as opinions go.


but that's a silly line of reasoning, a few dozen people round here know me, that would mean that i could claim to be famous, in fact using that reasoning everybody could


----------



## FighterTwister (Sep 5, 2017)

@gpseymour and @Tony Dismukes,


Well I did delete part of the message but you copied it oh well.

Although I was pointing more towards some other threads in Forum sadly where people just shut down anything for really no reason at all or poor understanding.

I apologise no offense intended was a little frustrated on other areas of the Forum that's all, I also misinterpreted your post as it was like some of the other posts that have been derailed and off topic and made a mess of, sure I jumped the gone and I am sorry for that!

I hope you understand.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> but that's a silly line of reasoning, a few dozen people round here know me, that would mean that i could claim to be famous, in fact using that reasoning everybody could


And by your reasoning, everyone on MT is famous (because you are a common guy, and you are aware of them).


----------



## jobo (Sep 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And by your reasoning, everyone on MT is famous (because you are a common guy, and you are aware of them).


why do you keep misquoting me, i said average not common, once we are using the correct terminology that maths applies.

in order to count as average my knowledge of things ,in this case who is famous, must be the same as a majority of the population, my knowledge of the posters on here is not  averagely held infomation, so you don't count as famous, at least not yet


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 5, 2017)

FighterTwister said:


> @gpseymour and @Tony Dismukes,
> 
> 
> Well I did delete part of the message but you copied it oh well.
> ...


Cool. Always a good idea to read carefully before responding, but I'm glad you re-read and realized I wasn't saying what you thought I was.

The part of your post that you left up after editing still references Doug Marcaida. Any reason you're posting his bio when the video being discussed is of Fred Mastro?

(BTW, I've never met Doug Marcaida, but I've heard good things and his videos look interesting. I would be happy to check out his teaching if I have the opportunity some day.)


----------



## FighterTwister (Sep 5, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Cool. Always a good idea to read carefully before responding, but I'm glad you re-read and realized I wasn't saying what you thought I was.
> 
> The part of your post that you left up after editing still references Doug Marcaida. *Any reason you're posting his bio when the video being discussed is of Fred Mastro?*
> 
> (BTW, I've never met Doug Marcaida, but I've heard good things and his videos look interesting. I would be happy to check out his teaching if I have the opportunity some day.)




Sorry I don't understand your question

But this is Doug Marcaida on the left.







And this is his training center and webpage - About | Doug Marcaida

He developed the style from other roots for military use and other applications etc.

There is a great review online about his development style I might dig online and post it here.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 5, 2017)

FighterTwister said:


> Sorry I don't understand your question
> 
> But this is Doug Marcaida on the left.
> 
> ...



Yes, I know who Doug Marcaida is. I've watched a bunch of his videos and I have friends who have trained with him.

This thread (if you look back to page one) was created to discuss a video showing what appears to be footage from a seminar taught by Fred Mastro. Mr. Mastro is a Silat practitioner who has created his own art - the Mastro Defence System. His website is here. Mr. Mastro and Mr. Marcaida are not the same person. They don't even look alike or practice the same art.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Sep 5, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yes, I know who Doug Marcaida is. I've watched a bunch of his videos and I have friends who have trained with him.
> 
> This thread (if you look back to page one) was created to discuss a video showing what appears to be footage from a seminar taught by Fred Mastro. Mr. Mastro is a Silat practitioner who has created his own art - the Mastro Defence System. His website is here. Mr. Mastro and Mr. Marcaida are not the same person. They don't even look alike or practice the same art.



i will take a guess that part of the confusion is that Fred did some videos with Doug.  there were parts of the video that the OP posted that came from the videos that Doug produced.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Sep 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And by your reasoning, everyone on MT is famous (because you are a common guy, and you are aware of them).



woohooo   IM FAMOUS!!


----------



## jobo (Sep 5, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> So ... like Rugby, then?


well no, people,who are caught subjecting others to gross violence are remove,from the arena and possibly banned for other games.

there is quite a,difference to sports where people are hurt and sports where the objective is to cause as much damage,as possible


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> why do you keep misquoting me, i said average not common, once we are using the correct terminology that maths applies.
> 
> in order to count as average my knowledge of things ,in this case who is famous, must be the same as a majority of the population, my knowledge of the posters on here is not  averagely held infomation, so you don't count as famous, at least not yet


Okay, so let's use your word, not mine (not sure why that matters so much, but fine). You claim to be average, yet claim that if I don't know someone famous, I am by definition not average. So, if you don't know someone famous, are you still average?

See the logic issue? Whether you or I, as individuals, know of someone doesn't determine their famousness. Whether many people do is the measure (again, vague, but clearly NOT defined by a single un-knowing individual).


----------



## Danny T (Sep 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> but that's a silly line of reasoning, a few dozen people round here know me, that would mean that i could claim to be famous, in fact using that reasoning everybody could


You could then be classified as famous...within that small group.
Have you never heard a phrase similar to, "he's quite famous in his area of expertise" or "that restaurant is famous for its Mediterranean Cuisine"?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 5, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Cool. Always a good idea to read carefully before responding, but I'm glad you re-read and realized I wasn't saying what you thought I was.
> 
> The part of your post that you left up after editing still references Doug Marcaida. Any reason you're posting his bio when the video being discussed is of Fred Mastro?
> 
> (BTW, I've never met Doug Marcaida, but I've heard good things and his videos look interesting. I would be happy to check out his teaching if I have the opportunity some day.)



He threw a video up of Doug before you did the critique of the the OP. Thinks you are discussing his video?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> well no, people,who are caught subjecting others to gross violence are remove,from the arena and possibly banned for other games.
> 
> there is quite a,difference to sports where people are hurt and sports where the objective is to cause as much damage,as possible


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2017)

drop bear said:


>


Wait, does that count as style-bashing, DB?


----------



## FighterTwister (Sep 5, 2017)

drop bear said:


> He threw a video up of Doug before you did the critique of the the OP. Thinks you are discussing his video?



Ahuh, yes thats where I got it wrong again sorry guys thx m8

Good catch though, I did not realize either LoL

Thats what we need around here is people helping each other out good sportmanship and no egos policy always works best.

Sorry again for my unintended interruption! 

Well done M8


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 6, 2017)

drop bear said:


> He threw a video up of Doug before you did the critique of the the OP. Thinks you are discussing his video?





FighterTwister said:


> Ahuh, yes thats where I got it wrong again sorry guys thx m8
> 
> Good catch though, I did not realize either LoL
> 
> ...



That explains it, although if you read any of my critiques it would have been clear they had nothing to do with the Marcaida video.

For what it's worth, I like the video you posted much more than the original video being discussed. Marcaida isn't working from the assumption that he's 5 times faster than his opponent or that his opponent will instantly drop from any empty hand strike. He's teaching, not showing off.


----------



## Steve (Sep 6, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You start with works somewhere though.  Before you get to I can learn to do that.
> 
> Mostly. I mean taking out the innovators.


You get to a level of competence that is beyond application and you will naturally start to innovate.   Problem with some MA training is that they don't even get to application, much less beyond into more advanced stages of expertise.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 6, 2017)

Steve said:


> You get to a level of competence that is beyond application and you will naturally start to innovate.   Problem with some MA training is that they don't even get to application, much less beyond into more advanced stages of expertise.



It is not that they don't get to application. It is that it just isn't important. This is where we get a lot of conflict. We suggest someone go out and actually apply it. And then have to spend 20 pages trying to explain why this should be a thing in martial arts.

And then basically wind up with. "Sorry I don't compete. I don't street fight and only spar gumbies at 20‰. But you should here my opinions on how fighting works"


----------



## drop bear (Sep 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Wait, does that count as style-bashing, DB?



State bashing. So it is O.K.


----------



## frank raud (Sep 14, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> Have you even practised anything similar? Pukulan or Silat?
> 
> If not maybe you should try it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Finlay (Sep 30, 2017)

To the OP

The guy knows how to move but as for self defence it is a little off.

One example of this is where he responds to a knife threat by turning the knife into the stomach of the other person, driving it in with his knee just to make sure.

In many countries this would be classes as murder rather than self defence.

Some I guess would claim you could get away with it legally but then you still have the physiological effect that you have to deal with.

This theme seems to be repeated throughout the demo.

If it is for military then I guess it is for them to judge, but to show this and then advertise it as a civilian self defence system in my opinion is incorrect


----------



## Paul_D (Oct 17, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> A friend on Facebook sent this to me asking for my opinion, and quite frankly I don't know what to make of it. From one stand point the guy doing the demonstrations clearly has a lot of speed and has trained his techniques well, but it's hard to tell if he could do the same thing under resistance.
> 
> ...


I turned it off after 12 seconds.  He stabs a guy 20+ times and calls that SD?


----------



## geezer (Nov 11, 2017)

_^^^^ You just don't like unecessarily killing people_. Like what's with that? 

Heck maybe you can fix that weakness....

Reminds me of something that happened to me back around 1985. I met a guy, an old Vietnam combat vet that owned a house together with a couple of cheap apartments where my girlfriend was staying while in college. Anyway, this guy felt that a lot of the trauma, PTSD, etc. associated with killing could be overcome the same way some therapists treat phobias ...by de-sensitizing the individual through gradually increasing exposure.

He gave the example of growing up on a farm and raising rabbits, lambs, calves, and so forth. When he was little, he said he was really upset when he had to slaughter them. But his dad helped him do it more and more until it became like a game, then finally just another boring chore.

Similarly, he said his first kill or two in 'Nam upset him, but after he killed a whole lot of people, it was not so much of a problem. So he held that if a soldier had an issue with killing, he should work at de-sensitizing himself by ramping up his kills, eventually, killing as many as possible, and it would get really easy, ...like any other chore. 

When I expressed doubt, he got really worked up about us softies who were a too young and had missed the war. He said that we didn't know sh!t and whipped out a loaded 45 and pointed at me and my girlfriend to let us know what it felt like to know you can _die in an instant._

Somehow we got him to lower the gun and got the hell out of there. However, _none of this desensitized me._ Rather, it reinforced my previous knowledge that I did not like killing people, and that I also didn't like being threatened with immediate death. So I _don't_ think I would recommend this approach to training mass murderers. 

One good thing did come of it however. My girlfriend decided right then and there to move out of this psycho's rental apartment and move in with me. We later married and have been together over 30 years.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Nov 11, 2017)

geezer said:


> _^^^^ You just don't like unecessarily killing people_. Like what's with that?
> 
> Heck maybe you can fix that weakness....
> 
> ...



your landlord vet friends was partially correct.  there is a desensitizing effect that can happen. Grossman has written about this in his book "On Killing".  FBI profilers will tell you many serial killers start with animals.  hunters will say the same thing.  this only applies to the ability to take life and it will vary from person to person.  there is about 2% of the population that will have no remorse about killing and that is really what we are talking about here ..remorse.   PTSD on the other hand ventures into a totally different segment of psychology. while it overlaps a bit, it cannot be said the "cure" is to kill more.  many PTSD cases are not about killing but rather fear, stress and high levels of adrenaline for extended periods of time.


----------

