# Looking for something new



## MA_Student (Oct 26, 2017)

So the Muay Thai gym I've been training at will soon be limiting it's hours due to the head coach having a baby. It'll still be open but on days that may not be convinient for me (not sure yet as nww timetable hasnt been announced yet) which is a shame but I'm looking at other options. One option is taekwondo which is run by a 4th degree black belt woman who is also one of the top kickboxers in the uk at the moment so she has practical experience. I could also put more hours into my Jiu jitsu and train some no gi classes but really I'm looking to continue with striking. If I can't find anything that works I can just do more hours in my kenpo but would like to find something with more intensity.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 26, 2017)

Choices, choices, always choices, no respite.  Why don't you find some new art you don't like as much as Muay Thai and study that?

Sorry, but that seems a silly question.


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## MA_Student (Oct 26, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Choices, choices, always choices, no respite.  Why don't you find some new art you don't like as much as Muay Thai and study that?
> 
> Sorry, but that seems a silly question.


Um firstly what question I wasn't actually asking anything. Second you having a bit of trouble reading? I already said that the circumstances are changing so I may be able to train there anymore


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## JR 137 (Oct 26, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Um firstly what question I wasn't actually asking anything. Second you having a bit of trouble reading? I already said that the circumstances are changing so I may be able to train there anymore


Quite sure he was saying HIS OWN question was a silly question.

If you don’t want anyone to comment on your post, why bother posting it?

Relax a little bit.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 26, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> So the Muay Thai gym I've been training at will soon be limiting it's hours due to the head coach having a baby. It'll still be open but on days that may not be convinient for me (not sure yet as nww timetable hasnt been announced yet) which is a shame but I'm looking at other options. One option is taekwondo which is run by a 4th degree black belt woman who is also one of the top kickboxers in the uk at the moment so she has practical experience. I could also put more hours into my Jiu jitsu and train some no gi classes but really I'm looking to continue with striking. If I can't find anything that works I can just do more hours in my kenpo* but would like to find something with more intensity*.



I took the bolded part as an implied question.  But if you were just passing time by sharing with us your upcoming problems, I guess that was my mistake.  I guess I was a little nonplussed by the number of MA you have studied and still apparently haven't found anything other the Muay Thai that you really like.  But I am curious, since I have never studied Kenpo/Kempo, do they not really train with a lot of intensity?  From a very few videos I have seen, I just supposed they did.



MA_Student said:


> Um firstly what question I wasn't actually asking anything. Second you having a bit of trouble reading? I already said that the circumstances are changing so I may be able to train there anymore



Having a bit of trouble reading?  Yeah, happens a lot here on MT.  But when we get busy and try to answer in a hurry, things don't always come out right.  Happens with me when I am at work and trying to post something here in a hurry.

But as JR 137 said, if you post here you surely must need to expect comments.  You don't have to like them, but you have to accept you will get them.



JR 137 said:


> Quite sure he was saying HIS OWN question was a silly question.
> 
> If you don’t want anyone to comment on your post, why bother posting it?
> 
> Relax a little bit.



Perfect example of the consequences of my being too quick to post without re-reading it to ensure it will be understood as it was intended.  But thanks for taking and giving me a chance at the high road.  Something I need to do more myself.


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## jobo (Oct 26, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> So the Muay Thai gym I've been training at will soon be limiting it's hours due to the head coach having a baby. It'll still be open but on days that may not be convinient for me (not sure yet as nww timetable hasnt been announced yet) which is a shame but I'm looking at other options. One option is taekwondo which is run by a 4th degree black belt woman who is also one of the top kickboxers in the uk at the moment so she has practical experience. I could also put more hours into my Jiu jitsu and train some no gi classes but really I'm looking to continue with striking. If I can't find anything that works I can just do more hours in my kenpo but would like to find something with more intensity.


wouldn't another MT gym be the,best option? I'm not at all sure how you fit all that lot in and still have time for anything else in your life, perhaps do something completely different like, i don't know? Photography or dancing, learning an instrument or ,,,,,,,


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## MA_Student (Oct 28, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I took the bolded part as an implied question.  But if you were just passing time by sharing with us your upcoming problems, I guess that was my mistake.  I guess I was a little nonplussed by the number of MA you have studied and still apparently haven't found anything other the Muay Thai that you really like.  But I am curious, since I have never studied Kenpo/Kempo, do they not really train with a lot of intensity?  From a very few videos I have seen, I just supposed they did .



Some places will do same as everything but my place is very technical and very rarely do they do hard pad work or fitness stuff it's good for the technique but I like to have a good work out as well


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## Flying Crane (Oct 28, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Some places will do same as everything but my place is very technical and very rarely do they do hard pad work or fitness stuff it's good for the technique but I like to have a good work out as well


A good hard workout is something you can (and should) do on your own, outside of class.

Some schools see class time as time for instruction.  That is where they carefully go over the details, correct mistakes you are making, and teach you new material while making sure you understand it.  The focus is on the technical aspects and they take the time to be thorough with that instruction.  They don’t see fitness as a good way to spend class time.  If you want fitness, do that on your time.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 28, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> If you want fitness, do that on your time.


Agree!

1. Some people

- go to school to learn.
- come home to train.

2. Others

- go to school to train.
- come home to rest.

IMO, people in the 2nd group won't have any future.


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## drop bear (Oct 28, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> A good hard workout is something you can (and should) do on your own, outside of class.
> 
> Some schools see class time as time for instruction.  That is where they carefully go over the details, correct mistakes you are making, and teach you new material while making sure you understand it.  The focus is on the technical aspects and they take the time to be thorough with that instruction.  They don’t see fitness as a good way to spend class time.  If you want fitness, do that on your time.



Fighting is physical. The training should reflect that.

You're technical expert still looses when his gas runs out.


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## MA_Student (Oct 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Fighting is physical. The training should reflect that.
> 
> You're technical expert still looses when his gas runs out.


Agreed I've heard that stuff before about how you need to train in your own time. Well okay sure but one reason people start marital arts is for fitness I mean boxers, Muay Thai fighters etc they work on fitness in the gym and they're good technically so it's a silly argument really


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## MA_Student (Oct 29, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> A good hard workout is something you can (and should) do on your own, outside of class.
> 
> Some schools see class time as time for instruction.  That is where they carefully go over the details, correct mistakes you are making, and teach you new material while making sure you understand it.  The focus is on the technical aspects and they take the time to be thorough with that instruction.  They don’t see fitness as a good way to spend class time.  If you want fitness, do that on your time.


And what's one of the main reasons people start martial arts beside fighting...fitness and health are you saying boxers don't have good technique because they work out hard in the gym


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## MA_Student (Oct 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree!
> 
> 1. Some people
> 
> ...


Won't have any future? Why because its not the way you do it?....some people don't have time to train at home because of things like work, family etc


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## Headhunter (Oct 29, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> A good hard workout is something you can (and should) do on your own, outside of class.
> 
> Some schools see class time as time for instruction.  That is where they carefully go over the details, correct mistakes you are making, and teach you new material while making sure you understand it.  The focus is on the technical aspects and they take the time to be thorough with that instruction.  They don’t see fitness as a good way to spend class time.  If you want fitness, do that on your time.


A good instructor should be able to do both they should be able to make it a decent workout and still work on technique you should never be leaving a class feeling as fresh as you went in


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## Flying Crane (Oct 29, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> A good instructor should be able to do both they should be able to make it a decent workout and still work on technique you should never be leaving a class feeling as fresh as you went in


It is not the instructors job to get you into shape.  His job is to teach you the methods of the system he teaches.

Granted, this is hard work and fitness is usually a side benefit of the training.  But fitness is not his job.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 29, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> And what's one of the main reasons people start martial arts beside fighting...fitness and health are you saying boxers don't have good technique because they work out hard in the gym


See my post, number 15.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 29, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> And what's one of the main reasons people start martial arts beside fighting...fitness and health are you saying boxers don't have good technique because they work out hard in the gym


I think this depends on how often you go. If you're going once or twice a week, focus on technique and every other day go to the gym or workout on your own. But if you're 4 or more times a week, there's no reason to not also include the fitness, especially since people going that often may not have the time each day to work out outside the dojo, and you're getting enough 'technical' time in the hours your there.
3 days a week, I'm not sure. doesn't really fit in either category IMO.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 29, 2017)

I started martial arts because it's my passion. I train at the gym for fitness purposes. However, I understand why others would resort to martial arts for exercise. Boxing fitness is on a completely different level. Even I struggle to keep up. I can run forever, but the punching & the push ups kill me... 

Why not join a credible Karate organisation? I'm sure it will give you most of what you're looking for. If that's not enough to keep you satisfied, keep doing Jiujitsu. Do both... 

I would have done that, but I can only speak for myself. I really like Karate... Mortal Kombat inspired me to like it. I remember jamming it on the Sega console when I was 5 years old.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> A good hard workout is something you can (and should) do on your own, outside of class.
> 
> Some schools see class time as time for instruction.  That is where they carefully go over the details, correct mistakes you are making, and teach you new material while making sure you understand it.  The focus is on the technical aspects and they take the time to be thorough with that instruction.  They don’t see fitness as a good way to spend class time.  If you want fitness, do that on your time.


This is something I deal with, as an instructor. I prefer for classes to leave people dripping with sweat, but sometimes there's something more technical to work on. Actually, more often than I'd like, but my job is to teach them those abilities. I develop what fitness I can with them, but if I'm all the fitness work they're getting, they won't be very fit.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Fighting is physical. The training should reflect that.
> 
> You're technical expert still looses when his gas runs out.


True, but if folks are only attending 3 hours a week, there's only so much "physical" we can deliver, and still teach them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Agreed I've heard that stuff before about how you need to train in your own time. Well okay sure but one reason people start marital arts is for fitness I mean boxers, Muay Thai fighters etc they work on fitness in the gym and they're good technically so it's a silly argument really


Not a silly argument for the audience that comes to folks like me. They aren't going to commit more than about 3 hours a week (at best - averages to less than that with vacations). That means there's not so much time for fitness. When a new technique is being learned, it slows class down for everyone involved (even if it's not new to them).

If I was teaching 5 or more days a week, and folks were attending several classes, I could put a lot more emphasis on fitness while they are in the room.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> And what's one of the main reasons people start martial arts beside fighting...fitness and health are you saying boxers don't have good technique because they work out hard in the gym


A committed boxer isn't going to the gym just 3 hours a week. That's the key difference.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> A good instructor should be able to do both they should be able to make it a decent workout and still work on technique you should never be leaving a class feeling as fresh as you went in


My only disagreement would be the "never". There are classes where a brand new technique is the focus, and that doesn't always leave room for them to sweat (beyond the 15-minute warm-up).


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> It is not the instructors job to get you into shape.  His job is to teach you the methods of the system he teaches.
> 
> Granted, this is hard work and fitness is usually a side benefit of the training.  But fitness is not his job.


It depends what the instructor is offering. If he's just teaching an art ("just" not being pejorative), then you are correct. If he's offering training for self-defense or fighting ability, then fitness should be a part of the consideration, even if that were only covered as advice. Some might not like that last point, but I'd be okay with an instructor who said, "Our classes get pretty technical. If you expect to keep up, you need to be doing X to keep in shape."


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## Tarrycat (Oct 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Not a silly argument for the audience that comes to folks like me. They aren't going to commit more than about 3 hours a week (at best - averages to less than that with vacations). That means there's not so much time for fitness. When a new technique is being learned, it slows class down for everyone involved (even if it's not new to them).
> 
> If I was teaching 5 or more days a week, and folks were attending several classes, I could put a lot more emphasis on fitness while they are in the room.



Exactly our situation in class, too. There just isn't much time to focus on so much fitness. 

We've done a fitness session ONCE as far as I can recall. We had to do 3 sets of 1-minute intervals consisting of various exercises like push ups, squats, lunges, & abs.

There are SO many techniques to cover, that we just don't have the time for fitness. It hopefully reflects in some of what we do (rolls, kicks, etc).

Some nights we sweat, others not so much.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Won't have any future? Why because its not the way you do it?....some people don't have time to train at home because of things like work, family etc


You can "learn technique" in school. That's the 50% training. You also need to "develop ability". That's the other 50% training.

When I jointed in the YMCA Karate club, the instructor asked us to

- run around the room,
- stretching,
- sit up,
- push up,
- ...

I told him that I could do all of that at home. He said that not everybody trained at home.

IMO, the kind of "ability" training that you can do at home can be:

- running,
- stretching,
- sit up,
- push up,
- posture training,
- kick/punch on heavy bag,
- lift weight,
- ...

If you want to be a good guitar player, you will need to practice at home.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> True, but if folks are only attending 3 hours a week, there's only so much "physical" we can deliver, and still teach them.


This brings up another point we actually discussed on here recently. If the classes are 1 hour long, you don't have that much time to do 'fitness' things. If the classes are 2-3 hours, or they go to multiple classes (grappling, technical, sparring, etc.) in a day, there's more time to devote to fitness, without worrying that it's taking away from the technical you want to teach/learn. There's only so much you can learn in a day without overloading.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> Exactly our situation in class, too. There just isn't much time to focus on so much fitness.
> 
> We've done a fitness session ONCE as far as I can recall. We had to do 3 sets of 1-minute intervals consisting of various exercises like push ups, squats, lunges, & abs.
> 
> ...


I also find some students are better at intensity than others. I have one student who is pretty fit (attends a few fitness classes), but rarely breaks a sweat in class, because he's very cerebral. He stops a lot to examine techniques and figure out why things do/don't work. That's good for his ability to improvise, but it means he almost never gets a good workout in class. I was like that some days, and other days I would do a technique over and over, regardless of the number of falls I took or how hard they were. I loved ending a class all sweaty, but it didn't always happen, especially if I was working with a new student.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> This brings up another point we actually discussed on here recently. If the classes are 1 hour long, you don't have that much time to do 'fitness' things. If the classes are 2-3 hours, or they go to multiple classes (grappling, technical, sparring, etc.) in a day, there's more time to devote to fitness, without worrying that it's taking away from the technical you want to teach/learn. There's only so much you can learn in a day without overloading.


That's the reason I've resisted the trend (among instructors I know) to move to 1-hour classes. I keep to 90 minutes, so there's time at the beginning to at least pay a bit of attention to fitness. I know some who do no warm-up or exercise at the beginning of class.


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## drop bear (Oct 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> True, but if folks are only attending 3 hours a week, there's only so much "physical" we can deliver, and still teach them.



So you deliver less because they deliver less.

If they are not going to train then there is not much you can do I suppose.


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## drop bear (Oct 29, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> Exactly our situation in class, too. There just isn't much time to focus on so much fitness.
> 
> We've done a fitness session ONCE as far as I can recall. We had to do 3 sets of 1-minute intervals consisting of various exercises like push ups, squats, lunges, & abs.
> 
> ...



Which is why in 20 years time you will still get manhandled by say a boxer or jittster who has been training for six months. 

Even though you will have all these cool moves. You just never learn to really employ them.

Don't stress, same thing happened to me. Trained for ages then sparred some guys who wanted to put the pressure on and I turned to water. And had to reevaluate what was important to focus on.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If they are not going to train then there is not much you can do I suppose.


Onetime I had a group Taiji class. I intended to teach the 108 move Taiji form within 3 months.

1st month - 20 moves.
2nd month - 30 moves.
3rd month - 58 moves (there are redundant moves in it).

We met once a week for 2 hours. The 1st week I taught 6 moves. The 2nd week I taught another 6 moves. When I started to link all those 12 moves together, I found out some students could not remember the 1st 6 moves. I asked them whether they had practiced at home or not. They said that they didn't.

What can you do if students don't train at home? In school if you don' do homework, you will fail in that class.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> So you deliver less because they deliver less.
> 
> If they are not going to train then there is not much you can do I suppose.


I think part of it is simply a difference in expectation. If someone goes to a boxing gym (and probably to an MMA gym), they expect to be put through fitness regimen. When someone comes to a martial arts school, they may expect rigorous classes, but they aren't expecting fitness classes, unless that's advertised. If I had a full-time school, I'd go get trained more for fitness and offer some classes specifically or primarily around that aim. Some folks would join them, but most probably wouldn't. That's the nature of the hobbyists.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Which is why in 20 years time you will still get manhandled by say a boxer or jittster who has been training for six months.
> 
> Even though you will have all these cool moves. You just never learn to really employ them.
> 
> Don't stress, same thing happened to me. Trained for ages then sparred some guys who wanted to put the pressure on and I turned to water. And had to reevaluate what was important to focus on.


The one thing about this, is that you still have all the technical knowledge. So if you suddenly enter a match with only technical knowledge, you'l probably get manhandled. But you still have that knowledge so once you spend 2-3 months focusing on fitness/sparring/application, you are leagues ahead of the fighters who started in that gym to begin with, and have the same time there as you.

I don't know if it's accurate across the board, but it's been my own observation, from when I switched to only technical, to fitness and application.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Which is why in 20 years time you will still get manhandled by say a boxer or jittster who has been training for six months.
> 
> Even though you will have all these cool moves. You just never learn to really employ them.
> 
> Don't stress, same thing happened to me. Trained for ages then sparred some guys who wanted to put the pressure on and I turned to water. And had to reevaluate what was important to focus on.


"No time for fitness" doesn't automatically translate to "no time to spar" or "no resistive training".


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Onetime I had a group Taiji class. I intended to teach the 108 move Taiji form within 3 months.
> 
> 1st month - 20 moves.
> 2nd month - 30 moves.
> ...


I even created some forms for folks to practice key movements at home. I end up re-teaching the forms from time to time, because they aren't using them much.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "No time for fitness" doesn't automatically translate to "no time to spar" or "no resistive training".


This is why you go to school to "develop and test" your MA skill through partner training and sparring/wrestling. When you are at home, you "enhance and polish" your MA skill through solo drills and weight equipment.


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## MA_Student (Oct 29, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> Exactly our situation in class, too. There just isn't much time to focus on so much fitness.
> 
> We've done a fitness session ONCE as far as I can recall. We had to do 3 sets of 1-minute intervals consisting of various exercises like push ups, squats, lunges, & abs.
> 
> ...


Well what's the rush to learn all the techniques? Also if you haven't got good fitness those techniques will be useless if you're gassed out in seconds. Doesn't need to be a whole class on fitness even just 20 minutes for a warm up would be enough to start with.


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## MA_Student (Oct 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why you go to school to "develop and test" your MA skill through partner training and sparring/wrestling. When you are at home, you "enhance and polish" your MA skill through solo drills and weight equipment.


No that's why YOU go just because that's what you think it should be that doesn't mean everyone wants that as I've said some simply can't do much at home and don't have the time, the space etc a good instructor should be able to support everyone's needs sure you can teach technique but doesn't mean you can't get a good workout doing so.


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## jobo (Oct 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "No time for fitness" doesn't automatically translate to "no time to spar" or "no resistive training".


i think it rather depends on what people are calling fitness ?

in my own group, people come do a hour and a half of assorted light movement and go home shattered, i use as it one of my rest/ recovery days and would be really upset if an hour of light training wiped me out, 
they are a lot fitter than they would otherwise be, so it has a fitness element, if its enough to say defend yourself is another point of discussion


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I even created some forms for folks to practice key movements at home.


Believe it or not, I even taught students how to let their left hand to fight their right hand.

1. Right hand grabs on left wrist (with tiger mouth facing to left hand) - how to grab wrist.
2. Left arm rotates inward (against thumb) to break the grip - how to break a wrist grip.
3. Right hand slides up on the top of the left elbow joint - how to take advantage when your opponent tries to break your grip.
4. Left arm rotates inward up and grab on top of the right elbow joint - move arm from disadvantage position to advantage position.

Repeat the other side.



MA_Student said:


> some simply can't do much at home and don't have the time, ...


For the homework as described above, I believe anybody can do it while watching TV. It's not that difficult to develop some personal "home training" program.


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## Streetfighter2 (Oct 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Believe it or not, I even taught students how to let their left hand to fight their right hand.
> 
> 1. Right hand grabs on left wrist (with tiger mouth facing to left hand) - how to grab.
> 2. Left arm rotates inward (against thumb) to break the grip - how to break a wrist grip.
> ...


Yeah because training to fight your own hand is way more important than fitness right....that's why I have no time for traditional styles because they waste time with pointless exercises like that.


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## jobo (Oct 29, 2017)

Streetfighter2 said:


> Yeah because training to fight your own hand is way more important than fitness right....that's why I have no time for traditional styles because they waste time with pointless exercises like that.


i think you are being a bit unfair, traditional styles were based on physical toughness, the issue is the people who sign up for them want the belts, but don't want to suffer to get them. If they decided to put them through an hour of fitness, they would just go some where else, where they didn't need to put as much effort in


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## drop bear (Oct 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "No time for fitness" doesn't automatically translate to "no time to spar" or "no resistive training".



No time for fitness means no capacity for quality sparring or resisted training.

If you can only wrestle for 30 seconds that also means you can only wrestle for 30 seconds.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2017)

Streetfighter2 said:


> Yeah because training to fight your own hand is way more important than fitness right....that's why I have no time for traditional styles because they waste time with pointless exercises like that.


You can't do much "fitness" when you watch TV anyway.

In wrestling,

- You use your left hand to grab on your opponent's wrist.
- He rotates his arm to avoid, or break your grab.
- You move your hand onto his elbow joint.
- You then ...

This pattern will repeat over and over in wrestling. It's wrestling 101 and most wrestlers are good at it.


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## drop bear (Oct 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I even created some forms for folks to practice key movements at home. I end up re-teaching the forms from time to time, because they aren't using them much.



Expecting people to train at home is more ambitious than expecting them to work in the gym though.

Which is why a lot of our fitness is done in the gym so at least you have the support there.

And fitness wins fights.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2017)

I just don't believe that you (general YOU) don't have time to train at home. If you have time to hug your wife, you should have time to give her a 

- head lock,
- bear hug,
- under hook,
- over hook,
- ...


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## jobo (Oct 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can't do much "fitness" when you watch TV anyway.
> 
> In wrestling,
> 
> ...


you can do as full body work out whilst you watch TV, you can do a pretty intense one with out standing up,


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 29, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why you go to school to "develop and test" your MA skill through partner training and sparring/wrestling. When you are at home, you "enhance and polish" your MA skill through solo drills and weight equipment.


You have a disagree from both ma_student and streetfighter2. Just wanted to point out something that I've noticed; the two of them, along with headhunter, tend to give the exact same responses to the exact same posts, and have similar writing styles. Either they are the same person, or they are three separate people who are so similar in their views that I view them as the same person. So when you end up with 3 disagrees from them on all your posts, I tend to view it as one disagree/dislike, not three.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

jobo said:


> i think it rather depends on what people are calling fitness ?


I don’t think so.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

Streetfighter2 said:


> Yeah because training to fight your own hand is way more important than fitness right....that's why I have no time for traditional styles because they waste time with pointless exercises like that.


I don’t know any traditional style that contains anything of that sort. So, if that’s why you avoid traditional styles, I have some good news for you.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> No time for fitness means no capacity for quality sparring or resisted training.
> 
> If you can only wrestle for 30 seconds that also means you can only wrestle for 30 seconds.


If they spend time sparring, that issue resolves itself, without having to dedicate time to a fitness program.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Expecting people to train at home is more ambitious than expecting them to work in the gym though.
> 
> Which is why a lot of our fitness is done in the gym so at least you have the support there.
> 
> And fitness wins fights.


I created them for folks like me, who do like to put time in outside class. I was just pointing out that most students won’t.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2017)

Streetfighter2 said:


> Yeah because training to fight your own hand is way more important than fitness right....that's why I have no time for traditional styles because they waste time with pointless exercises like that.


First, that training has nothing to do with "traditional". I created that training all by myself. I don't believe you can find any video like that online. 

Second, if you right hand tries to grab on your left wrist as hard as you can. You left arm also tries to break from your right hand grip as hard as you can. It doesn't take long, you will get tired on both arms. I believe this kind of training is called "isometric training". Does that fit your "fitness" definition? I don't know.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I created them for folks like me, who do like to put time in outside class. I was just pointing out that most students won’t.


Old CMA saying said, "Teacher leads you into the MA door. The rest is up to your personal training."


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## jobo (Oct 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don’t think so.


you don't think there are massively  different interpretation of what constitutes " fitness  ?"


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> You have a disagree from both ma_student and streetfighter2. Just wanted to point out something that I've noticed; the two of them, along with headhunter, tend to give the exact same responses to the exact same posts, and have similar writing styles. Either they are the same person, or they are three separate people who are so similar in their views that I view them as the same person. So when you end up with 3 disagrees from them on all your posts, I tend to view it as one disagree/dislike, not three.


I don't mind people who disagree with me. At least that mean people have read my posts. If nobody responds to my post, I may be on everybody's ignore list.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2017)

jobo said:


> you don't think there are massively  different interpretation of what constitutes " fitness  ?"


I don’t think it matters which is used, in the context of my comment.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If they spend time sparring, that issue resolves itself, without having to dedicate time to a fitness program.



It really doesn't. Either you go too easy. Turn to crap too quickly or spend too much time on the sidelines.

What essentially happens is you gain all these great technical skills and never find the means to employ them.

Wrestling is a great example. Because to avoid being taken down the willpower you put in to your defence has to be greater than the willpower they put in to their attack. 

You can have great technical moves but they won't work if you are folded in half.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don’t think it matters which is used, in the context of my comment.



The Richard Simmons work out might stave off heart disease if you ate right. But it will not create functional fighters.


----------



## Tarrycat (Oct 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Which is why in 20 years time you will still get manhandled by say a boxer or jittster who has been training for six months.
> 
> Even though you will have all these cool moves. You just never learn to really employ them.
> 
> Don't stress, same thing happened to me. Trained for ages then sparred some guys who wanted to put the pressure on and I turned to water. And had to reevaluate what was important to focus on.



Well, since a lot of what we do is Aikido-based (momentum; using the person's own weight against themselves), I doubt I would be man-handled in that sense... Unless of course I enter a boxing ring. Our techniques don't work with force. It's only successful for self-defense. It will be very difficult for me to properly attack someone twice or three times my size, using force. However, if they attack me, they do all the work for me. That's why people like Steven Seagal can get away with being less fit. He plays with them like rag dolls.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 30, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> Well, since a lot of what we do is Aikido-based (momentum; using the person's own weight against themselves), I doubt I would be man-handled in that sense... Unless of course I enter a boxing ring. Our techniques don't work with force. It's only successful for self-defense. It will be very difficult for me to properly attack someone twice or three times my size, using force. However, if they attack me, they do all the work for me. That's why people like Steven Seagal can get away with being less fit. He plays with them like rag dolls.




Does that really happen though?

I mean look if you wanted to train, have fun, learn stuff and meet new people then what you are suggesting is fine.

If you think you are learning some sort of skill that negates force without ever actually having to train against people who are seriously using force.

You are in for a bit of a shock.

I mean there are rules in a boxing ring but they don't suspend the laws of physics.


----------



## Tarrycat (Oct 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Does that really happen though?
> 
> I mean look if you wanted to train, have fun, learn stuff and meet new people then what you are suggesting is fine.
> 
> ...



I wasn't being serious about the Seagal comment... It just looks to me like he's fooling around with people in movies who attack him so aggressively. I haven't seen him fight in reality . But yes, most of our techniques are not based on force, as the technique fails when strength is introduced.

So, is Aikido to you not an effective martial art?... You make it seem like it's not.

Sure, reality may teach me some lessons. I am by no means a weak individual though. I used to bully boys in school, so I'm not necessarily a "fairy"... 

I lift weights, I do cardio. But my strength isn't useful in what we do. My weight is, however.

It's very difficult to explain these things to people who aren't familiar with these arts or haven't physically trained long enough to understand the physics behind it. I'm pretty certain that when the Japanese invented these different styles & techniques, they considered the law of physics, otherwise it wouldn't have been effective & taught to begin with.

I can debate with you all day about this, but at the end of the day, I'm not the person who formulated these styles, I'm just practicing it. I don't have all the answers; I just know that most of what we do fails if you implement it overcome by aggression & force.

Most likely we will target a boxer's hands, hence their hands are protected most of the time. There are a lot of things we can do to defend ourselves, but there's not a lot we can do if we are driven by ego.

Martial Arts isn't all-explanatory. Some things you need to experience in order for you to comprehend it.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Does that really happen though?
> 
> I mean look if you wanted to train, have fun, learn stuff and meet new people then what you are suggesting is fine.
> 
> ...



I will never enter a boxing ring... Ninjutsu is not a sport. You can't compare boxing to Ma


kempodisciple said:


> You have a disagree from both ma_student and streetfighter2. Just wanted to point out something that I've noticed; the two of them, along with headhunter, tend to give the exact same responses to the exact same posts, and have similar writing styles. Either they are the same person, or they are three separate people who are so similar in their views that I view them as the same person. So when you end up with 3 disagrees from them on all your posts, I tend to view it as one disagree/dislike, not three.



Lol. I noticed...


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> It really doesn't. Either you go too easy. Turn to crap too quickly or spend too much time on the sidelines.



Okay, of those three, the first is not quality sparring (I should have kept that word in my reply - it is a valid distinction), and the third is not sparring during sparring time. The second will eventually resolve itself. 



> What essentially happens is you gain all these great technical skills and never find the means to employ them.
> 
> Wrestling is a great example. Because to avoid being taken down the willpower you put in to your defence has to be greater than the willpower they put in to their attack.
> 
> You can have great technical moves but they won't work if you are folded in half.



Agreed.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The Richard Simmons work out might stave off heart disease if you ate right. But it will not create functional fighters.


Which isn’t relevant to the context of my post which was about “no time for fitness”. It doesn’t really matter whether that is RS fitness or Rocky Balboa fitness - there’s no separate time for either.


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## drop bear (Oct 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, of those three, the first is not quality sparring (I should have kept that word in my reply - it is a valid distinction), and the third is not sparring during sparring time. The second will eventually resolve itself.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.



Nice. Now have a chat to tarrycat. Cos I don't think she will get it coming from me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> Well, since a lot of what we do is Aikido-based (momentum; using the person's own weight against themselves), I doubt I would be man-handled in that sense... Unless of course I enter a boxing ring. Our techniques don't work with force. It's only successful for self-defense. It will be very difficult for me to properly attack someone twice or three times my size, using force. However, if they attack me, they do all the work for me. That's why people like Steven Seagal can get away with being less fit. He plays with them like rag dolls.


If you are able to keep to Aikido responses, you are correct. However, dealing with someone with a grappling background, you will find those opportunities less plentiful. When someone provides effective resistance, your energy usage changes dramatically.


----------



## MA_Student (Oct 30, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> You have a disagree from both ma_student and streetfighter2. Just wanted to point out something that I've noticed; the two of them, along with headhunter, tend to give the exact same responses to the exact same posts, and have similar writing styles. Either they are the same person, or they are three separate people who are so similar in their views that I view them as the same person. So when you end up with 3 disagrees from them on all your posts, I tend to view it as one disagree/dislike, not three.


Oh yeah because I've made 3 accounts for this site right? Grow up I really don't care enough about this site for that maybe more than just 1 person disagrees with the post


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## drop bear (Oct 30, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Oh yeah because I've made 3 accounts for this site right? Grow up I really don't care enough about this site for that maybe more than just 1 person disagrees with the post



Well we have never seen you and Donald trump in the same room together.

So I have my suspicions.


----------



## MA_Student (Oct 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Well we have never seen you and Donald trump in the same room together.
> 
> So I have my suspicions.


Dammit been found out


----------



## MA_Student (Oct 30, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> I will never enter a boxing ring... Ninjutsu is not a sport. You can't compare boxing to Ma
> 
> 
> Lol. I noticed...


Boxing Is a martial art just because it doesn't have belts or forms or any of that doesn't make it not a martial art. Kickboxing is a martial art, Muay Thai is a martial art, fencing is a martial art, mma is a martial art anything combat related is a martial art


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 30, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Oh yeah because I've made 3 accounts for this site right? Grow up I really don't care enough about this site for that maybe more than just 1 person disagrees with the post


Like I said, it's either that, or the three of you have incredibly similar views and read the same threads. I don't really care which one it is, doesn't effect me in the slightest.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 30, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> It is not the instructors job to get you into shape.  His job is to teach you the methods of the system he teaches.
> 
> Granted, this is hard work and fitness is usually a side benefit of the training.  But fitness is not his job.



Since so much of martial arts does seen to depend on physical fitness, I think it is in fact part of what has to be taught and followed up on.  The two martial arts I studied, we mostly did that as part of warm ups, but we were critiqued on gross errors there as well.  We had to keep improving.  And in this, I think drop bear is correct to point out that if technique won't end the fight at the first aggressive move, the martial artist defending himself may not be able to sustain himself.  So if a teacher notes that someone is unable to sustain himself, should he only tell the person to work out at home (which if not done well will affect his learning), or begin making him work out while training?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Since so much of martial arts does seen to depend on physical fitness, I think it is in fact part of what has to be taught and followed up on.  The two martial arts I studied, we mostly did that as part of warm ups, but we were critiqued on gross errors there as well.  We had to keep improving.  And in this, I think drop bear is correct to point out that if technique won't end the fight at the first aggressive move, the martial artist defending himself may not be able to sustain himself.  So if a teacher notes that someone is unable to sustain himself, should he only tell the person to work out at home (which if not done well will affect his learning), or begin making him work out while training?


I think there’s an assumption that the instructor is qualified to ensure good form. Most I know are actually not, and often use exercises that don’t fit what they are trying to accomplish. There are also issues of class size and divided attention for the instructor in smaller programs.


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## jobo (Oct 30, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Since so much of martial arts does seen to depend on physical fitness, I think it is in fact part of what has to be taught and followed up on.  The two martial arts I studied, we mostly did that as part of warm ups, but we were critiqued on gross errors there as well.  We had to keep improving.  And in this, I think drop bear is correct to point out that if technique won't end the fight at the first aggressive move, the martial artist defending himself may not be able to sustain himself.  So if a teacher notes that someone is unable to sustain himself, should he only tell the person to work out at home (which if not done well will affect his learning), or begin making him work out while training?



i agree, a maist SHOULD have a degree of fitness greater than the average for his/ her age. But that seems not to be commonly the case? The attitude from instructors seems " not my problem" I'm teaching techneque not fitness, even though those techniques will be next to useless with out a reasonable level of fitness. But then they can do fitness but can't actually get them to work hard in exercise unless they want to. 

and in some perhaps a lot of cases just coming and doing the,drills is significantly more exercise than they would do normally so fitness is improving. 

people in my group who start struggling with low intensity exercise, keep saying" but your so fit/ strong" as if i have some unfair advantage over them, but I'm not fitter than them by accident, I'm fitter because i work on it


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think there’s an assumption that the instructor is qualified to ensure good form. Most I know are actually not, and often use exercises that don’t fit what they are trying to accomplish. There are also issues of class size and divided attention for the instructor in smaller programs.



No doubt you have more experience than I do.  I only know of the two arts I studied.  There was no question of the teachers there knowing what worked best for that art, and it was what was taught/practiced.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If you are able to keep to Aikido responses, you are correct. However, dealing with someone with a grappling background, you will find those opportunities less plentiful. When someone provides effective resistance, your energy usage changes dramatically.



We do grappling as well. 


gpseymour said:


> If you are able to keep to Aikido responses, you are correct. However, dealing with someone with a grappling background, you will find those opportunities less plentiful. When someone provides effective resistance, your energy usage changes dramatically.



Grappling is nothing new to us... In fact, it was one of the first technique divisions introduced to me. (Taijitsu - striking; grappling).

I 100% understand what you're saying though. They are two different arts entirely. It depends on the style of the attack. 

Luckily we don't only focus on one style. 

I will address grappling attacks tomorrow in class. Should be interesting!


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 30, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> We do grappling as well.
> 
> 
> Grappling is nothing new to us... In fact, it was one of the first technique divisions introduced to me. (Taijitsu - striking; grappling).
> ...


There is a significant difference in how grappling is typically trained in the Takamatsuden arts (i.e. the Bujinkan and its offshoots) vs how they are trained in systems like Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, and Sombo.

In the Bujinkan, you generally have a training partner who feeds you a simple, specified, somewhat stylized attack (such as a lapel grab), then waits around compliantly as you break his balance and structure so that you can apply a grappling technique such as an arm lock or a throw.

In Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Sombo, etc, you get to have training partners who actively, continually, and intelligently work to break _your_ balance and structure so they can apply their techniques at the same time as they work to counter and pre-emptively shut down your techniques. They will anticipate your techniques and adapt to your movements.

The difference between the two experiences is night and day, even when the same physical principles or techniques are used.


----------



## Tarrycat (Oct 30, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There is a significant difference in how grappling is typically trained in the Takamatsuden arts (i.e. the Bujinkan and its offshoots) vs how they are trained in systems like Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, and Sombo.
> 
> In the Bujinkan, you generally have a training partner who feeds you a simple, specified, somewhat stylized attack (such as a lapel grab), then waits around compliantly as you break his balance and structure so that you can apply a grappling technique such as an arm lock or a throw.
> 
> ...



I can imagine how different they are. It isn't our primary focus. I would like to experience the Jiiujitsu grappling one day.  

Isn't the main focus of Jiujitsu based on grappling? Or does it emphasize various other techniques as well? I'm not familiar with it. When I look at pictures, I always see the students wrestling & on the ground?

I once read one student saying that Brazilian Jiujitsu is superior to Japanese Jiujitsu.


----------



## Tarrycat (Oct 30, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Boxing Is a martial art just because it doesn't have belts or forms or any of that doesn't make it not a martial art. Kickboxing is a martial art, Muay Thai is a martial art, fencing is a martial art, mma is a martial art anything combat related is a martial art



That wasn't meant to send... But my phone saves drafts & sends them out. You'll notice, hence the incomplete structure of my text.  

I've always thought of boxing as a sport... But if others with more experience say otherwise then who am I to argue? I don't have the foundation to do so.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> We do grappling as well.
> 
> 
> Grappling is nothing new to us... In fact, it was one of the first technique divisions introduced to me. (Taijitsu - striking; grappling).
> ...


My point was just that when someone stops you from using the easy flow of aiki techniques,your fitness matters more. And that is also where we are most vulnerable.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There is a significant difference in how grappling is typically trained in the Takamatsuden arts (i.e. the Bujinkan and its offshoots) vs how they are trained in systems like Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, and Sombo.
> 
> In the Bujinkan, you generally have a training partner who feeds you a simple, specified, somewhat stylized attack (such as a lapel grab), then waits around compliantly as you break his balance and structure so that you can apply a grappling technique such as an arm lock or a throw.
> 
> ...


A simple example is a standard leg sweep (osoto gari). Done as a compliant drill (partner feeding attacks) it requires no real fitness. Now change the drill - try to sweep each other. Now the sweating starts.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> I can imagine how different they are. It isn't our primary focus. I would like to experience the Jiiujitsu grappling one day.
> 
> Isn't the main focus of Jiujitsu based on grappling? Or does it emphasize various other techniques as well? I'm not familiar with it. When I look at pictures, I always see the students wrestling & on the ground?
> 
> I once read one student saying that Brazilian Jiujitsu is superior to Japanese Jiujitsu.


When Tony and I say “grappling”, we refer to both standing and ground grappling.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> That wasn't meant to send... But my phone saves drafts & sends them out. You'll notice, hence the incomplete structure of my text.
> 
> I've always thought of boxing as a sport... But if others with more experience say otherwise then who am I to argue? I don't have the foundation to do so.


That gets into the sticky, vague division between combat sparring et and martial art. I’ve yet to find a definition that removes the haziness.


----------



## jobo (Oct 30, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> That wasn't meant to send... But my phone saves drafts & sends them out. You'll notice, hence the incomplete structure of my text.
> 
> I've always thought of boxing as a sport... But if others with more experience say otherwise then who am I to argue? I don't have the foundation to do so.


there is an open debate on here about what is and isn't a ma,
some lump every thing with fighting in , other insist that only art developed for the battle field count, most don't really care


----------



## JR 137 (Oct 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Well we have never seen you and Donald trump in the same room together.
> 
> So I have my suspicions.


POLITICAL POST!!! POLITICAL POST!!!

Just mentioning his name is political and stirs up some nonsense


----------



## Tarrycat (Oct 30, 2017)

jobo said:


> there is an open debate on here about what is and isn't a ma,
> some lump every thing with fighting in , other insist that only art developed for the battle field count, most don't really care



Well, I take my judgment back out of respect for your art. This is a MA forum after all. No art is superior, like I said initially. They all teach you something.


----------



## Tarrycat (Oct 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That gets into the sticky, vague division between combat sparring et and martial art. I’ve yet to find a definition that removes the haziness.



Google & Youtube, GP. No worries.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 30, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> POLITICAL POST!!! POLITICAL POST!!!
> 
> Just mentioning his name is political and stirs up some nonsense



Dibber dobber.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> A simple example is a standard leg sweep (osoto gari). Done as a compliant drill (partner feeding attacks) it requires no real fitness. Now change the drill - try to sweep each other. Now the sweating starts.



We have a 69 year old judo guy come train with us from time to time. And it is like wrestling a brick.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2017)

drop bear said:


> We have a 69 year old judo guy come train with us from time to time. And it is like wrestling a brick.


It's not that hard to play 100% defense and let your opponent to feel like a brick. The moment that you move and attack, your opponent can take advantage on your weight shifting.

Rock doesn't move but bull moves.That's why it's fun to watch bull fighting than to watch rock moving.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 30, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> Isn't the main focus of Jiujitsu based on grappling? Or does it emphasize various other techniques as well? I'm not familiar with it. When I look at pictures, I always see the students wrestling & on the ground?


This isn't the simplest question to answer, because jujutsu/jiu-jitsu is not a single art, but rather a blanket term for a large family of (somewhat) related arts.

To begin with, you have a number of historical (koryu) Japanese arts. Some of these were supplemental battlefield arts for grappling in armor, others were intended for civilian use. In general the emphasis was on (standup) grappling, but strikes and weapons were sometimes included. The koryu arts have training methods and cultural trappings which are noticeably distinct from most modern systems. There are a fair number of these systems, but they aren't widely practiced compared to arts like Judo.

Next you have a smaller number of modern ("gendai") systems developed in Japan which are derived from these older arts. The most widely practiced is probably Judo, which was developed by Jigaro Kano based on his training in Tenjin Shin'yo-ryu and Kito Ryu. Kano changed the name of his art from jujutsu to judo. Ostensibly this was to emphasize the philosophical context of his art and the fact that it could represent a life path, but the name change could also be seen as an exercise in branding, since jujutsu and the other classical forms of bujutsu were not popular in a Japan which was striving to embrace modernity. Despite the name change, a number of prominent judoka taught the art under the "jujutsu" moniker for a while, especially overseas. Other successful modern forms developed in Japan are Aikido (derived from Daito-ryu Aikijutsu) and Wado-Ryu (although commonly thought of as a karate style these days, Wado-Ryu was created as a blend of karate and jujutsu - in fact the full name was originally Shinshu Wadoryu Karate-Jujutsu).

Finally you have a much larger number of jujutsu styles developed outside of Japan, generally derived from some combination of Judo, Aikido, some other jujutsu styles, karate, and/or assorted non-Japanese arts.  In some cases the founders of these arts have changed the name or otherwise distinguished their systems from the Japanese source arts. In many other cases, they present their system as "Japanese Jujutsu", despite the facts that the exact lineage of their Japanese forebears is uncertain and the art has changed considerably from its ancestral form.

Here are some examples of notable non-Japanese members of the extended jujutsu family:

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Originally an offshoot of Judo which specializes in ne-waza (ground grappling), BJJ has picked up concepts and techniques from other grappling arts such as catch wrestling and Sombo.

Sombo: A blend of Judo with various folk wrestling methods from the former Soviet Union.

Hapkido: A Korean derivation of Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. Some schools have added in kicking methods from Tae Kwon Do.

Danzan Ryu Jujutsu: Created by a Japanese expatriate living in Hawaii. Supposedly derived from Yoshin Ryu and other historical jujutsu systems, but historical verification is not available, so it may be just based on Judo and Aikido. Either way, the founder also mixed in elements of karate, boxing, escrima, kung fu, wrestling, and lua.

Small Circle Jujutsu: Derived from Danzan Ryu and Judo.

There are many, many more. Most have at least a heavy emphasis on grappling, but many include striking as well. Some include ground grappling, many only focus on standup methods. Many include live sparring as part of the training, others rely exclusively on compliant drills. It's hard to make any absolute statements which cover the entire family of arts.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 30, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's not that hard to play 100% defense and let your opponent to feel like a brick. The moment that you move and attack, your opponent can take advantage on your weight shifting.
> 
> Rock doesn't move but bull moves.That's why it's fun to watch bull fighting than to watch rock moving.



Easier to fight a bull than a rock tough


----------



## Prostar (Oct 30, 2017)

If my students just left the floor at the end of a class and quietly went to the locker room and changed, then I know I missed it that night.  If they were all animated and talking up a storm in the locker room, they just had a killer workout.

As to the part of the discussion regarding doing the work at home, I always stressed to my students that the instructor can pick out of the class those students did some work on their technique at home.  It shows.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2017)

Prostar said:


> doing the work at home,


Here is another example. You may learn how to apply a "head lock" (technique development). But if you don't train "pole hanging" (ability development) at home, your "head lock" will never be strong enough to be able to give your opponent any problem.

Can you train this in your school? Unless your school has those pole set up.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 30, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Since so much of martial arts does seen to depend on physical fitness, I think it is in fact part of what has to be taught and followed up on.  The two martial arts I studied, we mostly did that as part of warm ups, but we were critiqued on gross errors there as well.  We had to keep improving.  And in this, I think drop bear is correct to point out that if technique won't end the fight at the first aggressive move, the martial artist defending himself may not be able to sustain himself.  So if a teacher notes that someone is unable to sustain himself, should he only tell the person to work out at home (which if not done well will affect his learning), or begin making him work out while training?


Plenty of teachers are in need of their own fitness training and are in no position to give advice on the topic. 

A martial arts teacher is not automatically a fitness guru.  However, that doesn’t mean you can’t learn good martial arts from them.

I don’t read drop bears posts.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Plenty of teachers are in need of their own fitness training and are in no position to give advice on the topic.


My teacher was very fit. When he was 74 years old, he still had 45 inch chest (I measured it myself). He told me that in his teacher's front yard, there was a 2 heads weight bar that was so heavy that every time he looked at it, he would hate it. All my life, I try not to work on too much weight that can make me to hate it.


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## Anarax (Oct 30, 2017)

Regarding the fitness and martial training conversation going on. IMO, when someone starts training in martial arts they are most likely training new muscles, training muscles differently or both. For example, I was a triathlete when I started Karate and was very fit. However; my body wasn't accustomed to working the muscles like we did in Karate, thus it was challenging to say the least. However; I didn't stop swimming biking nor running when I started Karate. I encountered the same thing when I started Kali, different muscle groups and different movement equal  a great workout. Essentially different styles train different muscles differently, though there is some overlap. There are also universal things like not being overweight and being a non-smoker that makes working out easier regardless of the type of workout.

That being said. I do not *solely *rely on my instructor to give me an intense workout. I enjoy when he does(afterwards), and I walk away feeling refreshed. However; there is a point as martial artists that we should start practicing on our own. If I want a great workout but also need to work on kicks, then I'll go to open gym and do numerous kicking drills. The same goes for any other training aspects, punches, footwork, speed, power, etc. We have covered so many drills in practice that I feel I can do a solo drill to improve on most things I need to work on. Furthering as martial artist means acknowledging what we need to work on, learn how to work on it, then most importantly following through and work on it.

Though I'm not an instructor, I can understand the challenge of regarding fitness. The biggest challenge I can see with doing an intense workout every class are the students that can't handle it. If you have elderly, younger or very out of shape students, such workouts might be too taxing to their bodies. I've had a hard time with this in the past, looking down or judging students that in my mind at the time where "limiting class". I started to realize that not everyone is a able as I am, and I need to understand that from their point of view and the instructor's. Thus when I solo train I can go as intensely as I want.

Finding the proper training culture is the best thing you can do. That doesn't automatically mean Muay Thai or BJJ. It more so depends on the class and instructor themselves. Style has very little to do with it, training culture is everything


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## KenpoMaster805 (Oct 31, 2017)

kenpo is good ive been doing kenpo for 4 years 3 moinths now and you can try like shotokan or goju ryu or other karate


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 31, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Regarding the fitness and martial training conversation going on. IMO, when someone starts training in martial arts they are most likely training new muscles, training muscles differently or both. For example, I was a triathlete when I started Karate and was very fit. However; my body wasn't accustomed to working the muscles like we did in Karate, thus it was challenging to say the least. However; I didn't stop swimming biking nor running when I started Karate. I encountered the same thing when I started Kali, different muscle groups and different movement equal  a great workout. Essentially different styles train different muscles differently, though there is some overlap. There are also universal things like not being overweight and being a non-smoker that makes working out easier regardless of the type of workout.
> 
> That being said. I do not *solely *rely on my instructor to give me an intense workout. I enjoy when he does(afterwards), and I walk away feeling refreshed. However; there is a point as martial artists that we should start practicing on our own. If I want a great workout but also need to work on kicks, then I'll go to open gym and do numerous kicking drills. The same goes for any other training aspects, punches, footwork, speed, power, etc. We have covered so many drills in practice that I feel I can do a solo drill to improve on most things I need to work on. Furthering as martial artist means acknowledging what we need to work on, learn how to work on it, then most importantly following through and work on it.
> 
> ...



Well said I think.  If a person is out of shape, or even in some way handicapped, and a teacher decides to take them on as students, I think there is an obligation to try and get them where they need to be physically.  With some it won't be too difficult, with others it will be difficult, and with a few, it just won't be possible because of their handicap, or their lack of mental discipline.

I think teachers, by the time they are senior belted,  should have learned from their teachers what exercises need to be emphasized for their art.  If they want to make minor adjustments of adding things or taking away some things, that is just how different arts and styles develop.

For those of you who think it is a student's responsibility to train for fitness outside the school, that is your business.  But I learned it differently, and although I haven't taught for a long time, when I did, I taught as I was taught.  Fitness as well as technique taught in class.  Especially in the Hapkido I learned, but nonetheless, also in Taekwondo.


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## jobo (Oct 31, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Plenty of teachers are in need of their own fitness training and are in no position to give advice on the topic.
> 
> A martial arts teacher is not automatically a fitness guru.  However, that doesn’t mean you can’t learn good martial arts from them.
> 
> I don’t read drop bears posts.


hmm, I've run this argument before, but it seems to apply, any sporting pass time you take up, will have a high element of fitness associated with it, with seemingly the exception of some ma, where it seems not to matter if the student is very unfit, they just teach the movies, take the money and see you next week. 

those whose aim includes achieving health and fitness are being short changed, they may be far better of taking up netball or,step aerobics or swimming or 5 aside football or anything really that has the effect of challenging them.

it really doesn't need a guru, to do some body weight exercises, if the instructors fitness is lacking then they are not setting a good example to the class and should really take a good look at them selves


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There is a significant difference in how grappling is typically trained in the Takamatsuden arts (i.e. the Bujinkan and its offshoots) vs how they are trained in systems like Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, and Sombo.
> 
> In the Bujinkan, you generally have a training partner who feeds you a simple, specified, somewhat stylized attack (such as a lapel grab), then waits around compliantly as you break his balance and structure so that you can apply a grappling technique such as an arm lock or a throw.
> 
> ...


In SC, sometime your opponent will 

- roundhouse kick to your chest.
- hay-maker to your head. 

You have to block it and apply your throw from there.

Here are examples:


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## drop bear (Oct 31, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Plenty of teachers are in need of their own fitness training and are in no position to give advice on the topic.
> 
> A martial arts teacher is not automatically a fitness guru.  However, that doesn’t mean you can’t learn good martial arts from them.
> 
> I don’t read drop bears posts.



Well I read yours.

If a martial arts instructor is not a fitness guru then it is an element of martial arts they cant teach.

So we will suggest they may still be able to teach parts of martial arts.


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## JR 137 (Oct 31, 2017)

To the entire group discussing fitness incorporated into MA class, I have to ask what are you referring to?  Doing separate un-MA stuff like pushups, squats, burpees, planks, etc.; or are you talking about doing MA stuff like basics/line drills at a faster pace?

We don’t do much “fitness” stuff; we generally limit it to sets of pushups and sit-ups during transitions from one thing to another once or twice during class.  But we go non-stop the hour-hour and a half we’re there.  We always start with basics/line drills.  Typically it’ll be something like 10 of each kick, each leg - front, roundhouse, side, hook.  Then we’ll a kicking combo like front-roundhouse.  Then we’ll incorporate punches into it.  Then we’ll do hand techniques that build on each other.  They’re not done against pads or anything like that; they’re done in the air.  The instructor will remind people who are going too fast to slow down a bit and focus on technique, but it’s definitely not slow.  Some people halfass it, but most of us are throwing stuff pretty hard and fast, and getting our heart rate and breathing up pretty good.  Then we’ll typically do a set of pushups and sit-ups, then go right into kata.  Several done one after the other without any break.  Then we’ll typically go into partner work at a good pace, sparring drills, or sometimes some pad work.  Another set of pushups and sit-ups, then sparring.

People can push themselves as hard as they want during class.  Some push themselves pretty hard (present company included) and a few will look like they’re just going through the motions.  You get out of it what you put into it.  Gi gi is typically soaked with sweat 20 minutes into it.  And there’s no air conditioning in the summer 

Does the above fit under what you’re considering conditioning in class, or are you talking committing say a half hour of class to non-MA specific stuff?

There’s some nights where we get a lot more technical and slow things down after the line drills/basics.  Those nights are typically when a group of people are learning new material after a recent promotion, or when there’s not too many people in class.  We get some visitors from other dojos in our organization from time to time.  A lot of them say we’ve got the reputation as being the toughest dojo - we don’t stop; it’s one thing into another without standing around at all, and we hit harder than the norm during sparring.


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## drop bear (Oct 31, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> To the entire group discussing fitness incorporated into MA class, I have to ask what are you referring to?  Doing separate un-MA stuff like pushups, squats, burpees, planks, etc.; or are you talking about doing MA stuff like basics/line drills at a faster pace?
> 
> We don’t do much “fitness” stuff; we generally limit it to sets of pushups and sit-ups during transitions from one thing to another once or twice during class.  But we go non-stop the hour-hour and a half we’re there.  We always start with basics/line drills.  Typically it’ll be something like 10 of each kick, each leg - front, roundhouse, side, hook.  Then we’ll a kicking combo like front-roundhouse.  Then we’ll incorporate punches into it.  Then we’ll do hand techniques that build on each other.  They’re not done against pads or anything like that; they’re done in the air.  The instructor will remind people who are going too fast to slow down a bit and focus on technique, but it’s definitely not slow.  Some people halfass it, but most of us are throwing stuff pretty hard and fast, and getting our heart rate and breathing up pretty good.  Then we’ll typically do a set of pushups and sit-ups, then go right into kata.  Several done one after the other without any break.  Then we’ll typically go into partner work at a good pace, sparring drills, or sometimes some pad work.  Another set of pushups and sit-ups, then sparring.
> 
> ...



See in order to do a class like that you need to be fit. And so is one of the reasons I suggest extra dedicated fitness is important.


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## JR 137 (Nov 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> See in order to do a class like that you need to be fit. And so is one of the reasons I suggest extra dedicated fitness is important.


Yes and no.  If the teacher is expecting every student to be able to do everything, he’ll only give one set of instructions for the entire group.

When we’ve got a new student, he’ll have that/those students do a few less techniques in the combo during each count.  He’ll stress “if you’re too tired, do every other count” don’t use as much power in your technique” etc.  He’ll also tell them “if you need to stop for a minute or two to catch your breath, go ahead.  Challenging yourself, but be smart about it so you don’t get too tired and have to sit out the rest of class.”  It’s up to the student to find the pace that he/she can keep up and yet still get a workout in.  After they’ve been there for a few weeks or so, they’re hanging with the rest of us (for the most part).  And lower ranks don’t have combos that are as long as higher ranks, so there’s definitely a progression.  If my teacher sees a newbie who’s capable of more than the norm, he’ll increase the number of techniques they know appropriately.  Very, very rarely does the rest of the group have to wait until one or two people catch up to us.

I remember him telling me a few times during my first few classes to “don’t go so hard that you’re going to be too tired and sore to come back for the next class.”  I’d smile and say “easier said than done.”  I was sore, but nothing more than what a good warmup and stretch could get rid of.

But I agree extra dedicated fitness is important.  It’s far easier to get better technically when you’re not struggling to keep up cardio-wise.  But fitness is this crazy thing that no matter how fit you feel, you never feel fit enough.  I guess it’s like heroine to my brother - there’s never going to be enough in the world to be fully satisfied all the time.


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