# Kata X Dai and Sho



## Black/Red Block (Sep 5, 2012)

All

I have a question and as I don't practice "traditional" martial arts I'm looking to you guys to give me the answers.

We have various Kata that are practiced that have a "Dai" & a "Sho" variant to the Kata. What is the reason for this, are they completely different Kata or 2 Kata created from one major Kata.

The Kata that follow this concept that come to mind are:

Bassai Dai & Bassai Sho
Kanku Dai & Kanku Sho
Gojushiho-Dai & Gojushiho-Sho

And Albeit a few others that some could add themselves

Thanks


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## dancingalone (Sep 5, 2012)

There is no real definitive answer with full historical documentation.  All we have are legends passed down through oral history that were later written down - some of the stories conflict with each other.

Certainly the Dai and Sho versions of each kata are related in some way.  They share techniques and often entire sequences of motion so the kinship is very recognizable to those who know what they are seeing.  It is possible they were created by the same author, or they shared inspiration from the same root kata.  For example, it is said Itosu Sensei learned a cognate Kusanku form that he broke up and modified to create Kusanku Dai, Kusanku Sho, and a lost kata called Shio Kusanku.

Most karate styles I am familiar with teach the Dai versions before the Sho and some feel the Sho kata are supposed to be more 'advanced'.


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## Grenadier (Sep 5, 2012)

Black/Red Block said:


> Bassai Dai & Bassai Sho
> Kanku Dai & Kanku Sho
> Gojushiho-Dai & Gojushiho-Sho
> 
> ...



Sometimes, as dancingalone well-stated, a different version of the kata is created from the original.  

Before I continue, I refer to the Gojushiho Dai as the one with the ippon nukite (one finger spear) and neko dachi (cat stance) in it, and refer to Gojushiho Sho as the one with more kokutsu dachi (back stance) and 5 finger spear hand, since some organizations switch names.  That's a discussion for later, of course...  

Gojushiho Sho is a somewhat modified version of Gojushiho Dai, where Sho was created from Dai directly, but with a greater emphasis on power.  Thus, Gojushiho Dai is more of a finesse kata, instead of a power kata.  Which is more difficult?  I'd give a small edge to the Dai version, since it's more demanding to remain in cat stance for that length of time, and there's a smaller margin of error when performing this kata.  Most competitors prefer the Sho version, since it's a safer choice.  

Nevertheless, both kata are quite advanced level ones.  

Dai is usually taught after Sho, although those who know both will generally stick to one or the other, since it can get confusing.  

As for Bassai Dai and Bassai Sho, Bassai Sho is more of a finesse kata, while Bassai Dai has more of an emphasis on power.  In this case, Sho is usually taught after Dai.


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## Black/Red Block (Sep 5, 2012)

Wastelander, A Good Friend from a Sister Thread wrote

As I understand it, Sho and Dai variants of kata are typically just different versions of the same kata as taught by different people. As an example, in his Butoku essay, Chibana Chosin (founder of Shorin-Ryu) wrote the following: 


*Chibana Chosin wrote:*I remember learning the kata Tadawa no Patsai (Passai/Bassai) from Tawada Sensei. At the time I was receiving instruction from Itosu and he, too, taught a version of Patsai kata which he called Matsumura no Patsai, which I learned. In 1913 or 1914, having practiced the Tawada no Patsai with all my heart, as was the custom back then, I approached Itosu and advised him of this. He asked me to demonstrate the kata for him. I did and Itosu then stated to me that was the finest performance of this rarely seen form that he had ever witnessed. He then told me that this form mut be preserved and passed on to future generations and to add it to his (my) teachings. So the Matsumura no Patsai is now called Patsai no Sho and the Tawada no Patsai is called Patsai no Dai.


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## Tez3 (Sep 5, 2012)

I see this thread is duplicated on Iain Abernethy's site, word for word :wink:


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## Black/Red Block (Sep 5, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I see this thread is duplicated on Iain Abernethy's site, word for word :wink:



That is correct and a few other forums I am on?

Do you wish to reply or just make this point?


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## Tez3 (Sep 5, 2012)

Black/Red Block said:


> That is correct and a few other forums I am on?
> 
> Do you wish to reply or just make this point?




Hey don't get a strop on! there's no need to be bad tempered, this isn't that sort of place, it's just amusing that you would pepper the internet martial arts forums with exactly the same worded question. It would have been nice if you have worded each one a bit differently out of respect for the individual members. Is it that you want a concensus of views or you just like posting?


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## Grenadier (Sep 5, 2012)

Nothing wrong with bringing productive conversations in from other discussion boards.  Each board is populated with a different population, and I suspect that the variety can give a different viewpoint at times.  Think of it as the fisherman who casts out multiple lines.  

As long as the fisherman is fishing in respectable waters, and not some cesspool, of course.


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## Tez3 (Sep 6, 2012)

Grenadier said:


> Nothing wrong with bringing productive conversations in from other discussion boards. Each board is populated with a different population, and I suspect that the variety can give a different viewpoint at times. Think of it as the fisherman who casts out multiple lines.
> 
> As long as the fisherman is fishing in respectable waters, and not some cesspool, of course.



There isn't anything wrong it's just that the exactly the same replies are made on each site there's no discussion from the OP, just the same answers so there's no individual interaction. It's just a bit disappointing that's all to have constant deja vu.


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## Black/Red Block (Sep 6, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> There isn't anything wrong it's just that the exactly the same replies are made on each site there's no discussion from the OP, just the same answers so there's no individual interaction. It's just a bit disappointing that's all to have constant deja vu.



Actually, I've had a varying amount of responses from various people its only YOU who has the problem, what's up Catterick too boring for you? Nothing more deja vu than seeing the same barrack walls. and everyone wearing green!

I used to like the Sergeant's Mess there. I'm ex RAF/Cheshire's/Mercian Regiment

I had an Army Karate Team Black belt come to my Dojo a few years back, she couldn't cope with the sparring and never returned, too many bruises, given to her by my Kyu grades


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## Grenadier (Sep 6, 2012)

Come on, folks, let's get back to the topic of Karate kata, OK?


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## Tez3 (Sep 6, 2012)

Black/Red Block said:


> Actually, I've had a varying amount of responses from various people its only YOU who has the problem, what's up Catterick too boring for you? Nothing more deja vu than seeing the same barrack walls. and everyone wearing green!
> 
> I used to like the Sergeant's Mess there. I'm ex RAF/Cheshire's/Mercian Regiment
> 
> I had an Army Karate Team Black belt come to my Dojo a few years back, she couldn't cope with the sparring and never returned, too many bruises, given to her by my Kyu grades



Yep that'll be me, the one with the problem roflmao! But at least I'm never boring!! I could add that I'm not the one with the 'red' rep lol. If you have been at Catterick you'll know there are quite a few WO and Sgts messes here not just one and also the army doesn't wear green anymore. I'm not army, never have been. I do know the Mercians quite well though and the RAF very well. The Mercians are on their way to Afghan and hopefully will have a better tour than the last which was a bad one for deaths and casualties. In a couple of weeks the whole brigade will be out there including most of our MMA club. 
I can't see what having an Army BB coming to your dojo has to do with anything tbh. She wouldn't have been anything to do with us unless she was posing as an MMA fighter.
Perhaps you will prove not to be a troll, I hope so.


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## Black/Red Block (Sep 7, 2012)

tez3 said:


> yep that'll be me, the one with the problem roflmao! But at least i'm never boring!! I could add that i'm not the one with the 'red' rep lol. If you have been at catterick you'll know there are quite a few wo and sgts messes here not just one and also the army doesn't wear green anymore. I'm not army, never have been. I do know the mercians quite well though and the raf very well. The mercians are on their way to afghan and hopefully will have a better tour than the last which was a bad one for deaths and casualties. In a couple of weeks the whole brigade will be out there including most of our mma club.
> I can't see what having an army bb coming to your dojo has to do with anything tbh. She wouldn't have been anything to do with us unless she was posing as an mma fighter.
> Perhaps you will prove not to be a troll, i hope so.



i don't give a crap about the red rep, i actually have a life outside this forum. 

You do tang soo, the biggest belt factory in the world, with a made up 2000 year old history

mma, i've had a few in my dojo that came once but couldn't keep the pace, try kudo or daito juku if you want real mma.

Anyone tried a 100 man kumite, bet nobody especially you tez would be man enough for it.

And i don't lie, but you are just having a go because you feel because you got 14000 posts you have a right too!!!!

Strange thing is not met any full contact karate people on here and that's my only reason for staying on this forum. Other styles of tippy tappy bouncy bouncy karate is a waste of time


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## Tez3 (Sep 7, 2012)

Black/Red Block said:


> i don't give a crap about the red rep, i actually have a life outside this forum.
> 
> You do tang soo, the biggest belt factory in the world, with a made up 2000 year old history
> 
> ...




I don't do TSD with any organisation and we only teach the children, our last grading for them was two years ago. The adults do MMA which is our main focus. We do martial arts for kids because it's part of helping the children here who's parents are away on deployment. 

I'm not having a go, I'm pointing out that you posted the same OP on other sites, fair enough good idea to get ideas back but you have also posted the same responses on all of them therefore not having a conversation. If you put your own comments to carry on the threads that would be cool. 

Am I man enough for a 100 man kumite, I very much doubt I will be 'man' enough for anything roflmao!


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## ballen0351 (Sep 7, 2012)

Black/Red Block said:


> i don't give a crap about the red rep, i actually have a life outside this forum.
> 
> You do tang soo, the biggest belt factory in the world, with a made up 2000 year old history
> 
> ...



I'll see your 100 man kumate and raise you I once hit 105 bars in a weekend now are You man enough for that.  It was the bar craw to end all bar crawls.

Oh and as for full contact karate that's for sissy's I live a full contact life.


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## Tez3 (Sep 7, 2012)

You've got to love a 'my style is better than your style' thread drift. :duh:


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## SuperFLY (Sep 7, 2012)

wow.. black/red block really has a chip on his shoulder.



Black/Red Block said:


> I had an Army Karate Team Black belt come to my Dojo a few years back,  she couldn't cope with the sparring and never returned, too many  bruises, given to her by my Kyu grades


perhaps your kyu grades need to learn some control then.

tez hasnt said anything to warrant your replies.. seems like you just wanted to start a fight with someone.

in all martial arts there is fundamental respect.. might be time to bring some back to this thread.. what do you say? 

/on topic


Grenadier said:


> Dai is usually taught after Sho, although those who know both will  generally stick to one or the other, since it can get confusing.


interestingly its the other way round for our club.

i did Bassai Dai, for my brown belt yet i wont do Bassai Sho until my sandan. Kankudai is part of my black belt grading and Kankusho is part of the Nidan.

i must admit i've not looked at them yet so i dont know the differences; couldnt tell you why its that way round for us


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## Tez3 (Sep 7, 2012)

When I was doing Wado we just did 'Bassai' and 'Kushanku', it wasn't until discussing it with my present instrucutor who came from Shotokan that I realised that people have more than one 'Bassai'. In Wado both Bassai and Kushanku were for the brown belts ( they have three) with Naihanchi being for 1st Dan.


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## MJS (Sep 8, 2012)

*Admin Note:

Keep the discussion on a civil level please.  Stop the personal shots/attacks.  If you have a problem with a member, put them on ignore.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin*


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## Black Belt Jedi (Sep 9, 2012)

The dai and the sho versions of kata were really split from one major kata because more templates were later added. I am just guessing. The dai form is most likely the one big standalone form, while the sho form is most likely newly formed principles from the original kata. Furthermore, there are katas like Naihanchi when it had one kata, now it is split into three Naihanchi/Tekki forms and Rohai/Mekyo split into three forms.


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## arnisador (Sep 9, 2012)

Black/Red Block said:


> Gojushiho-Dai & Gojushiho-Sho



When I studied Goju-ryu I was taught these as Shorin-ryu forms that my instructor happened to know (because he liked performing Gojushiho-no-sai as a weapons form). In fact I learned Gojushiho-Sho, then Gojushiho-Ni, and then Gojushiho-Dai. I was told that _Dai _meant that it was a greater, ultimate, or combined version of the first two. I was a brown belt and it wasn't in my main system so all I can say is that I didn't see a sense in which it was greater.


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## TimoS (Sep 10, 2012)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> The dai and the sho versions of kata were really split from one major kata



I don't think there's any historical evidence of this or if there is, I would like to see it. Most, if not all, the sho kata can be traced to Itosu sensei. The dai kata were the existing kata


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

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## Black/Red Block (Sep 10, 2012)

TimoS said:


> I don't think there's any historical evidence of this or if there is, I would like to see it. Most, if not all, the sho kata can be traced to Itosu sensei. The dai kata were the existing kata
> 
> 
> ---
> ...



Agreed, Tekki (Naihanchi/Naifanchi etc) Shodan, Nidan were from what I have read the same kata separated and Sandan was added at a later date.

Thank you all who responded with information, so from what I have deciphered. The Dai is the "older" original to the "Ryu" version whereas the Sho is the "newer" different version (even though it may be older in its own origin) to the "Ryu"


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## Cayuga Karate (Sep 13, 2012)

Funakoshi wrote in Karate Do Kyohan that back in the 1800s, it was common for a person of considerable skill to learn only a few kata, three was common. Motobu certainly believed in that. He probably was exposed to a number, but he taught only a few, and it is believed only practiced a few extensively.

Thanks to video of tournaments and demonstrations, we can look to youtube for a fairly robust inventory of Okinawan kata that have survived until today. Scores, certainly, have perished. But we have a visual record unimaginable in the days when a person was only exposed to a few.

Back in the 1800s, if you were taught Passai, or Gojushiho, or Kusanku, you were taught a single version. However, by the late 1800s, and certainly in the early 1900s, karateka began to gather the kata practiced by others. Chotoku Kyan is a good example. Sokon Matsumura taught him only Seisan and Gojushiho. And from other old karateka, he learned but a single kata from each. 

Itosu, by the time he died, is believed to have passed on over 20 kata to Mabuni. Itosu clearly broke the old mold where one only learned but a few kata in one's lifetime. Probably because of his station in life, a clerk (an important position) in the Ryukyu government, and a leading student of Matsumura and Gusukuma, he was in a position to share and learn kata from other prominent karateka of his day.

What's important to note, is that we can look to youtube as a resource to better understand the variety of kata that have been handed down with common names. There are numerous versions of Passai (Bassai) and Kusanku. Itosu passed down two versions of each to his students. (At least to Mabuni and Chibana.) I would argue that the dai and sho terms were simply means to differentiate between two different kata of the same name. 

It is generally recognized that dai refers to something bigger, and sho something smaller. Some argue that this refers to length, but I have my doubts. Rather I would argue that the dai may often carry the connotation of which is the more important of the two, or perhaps which is learned first. 

It's been noted above, but the dai and sho terms are not uniform with Passai. Chibana's Passai sho is Mabuni/Funakoshi's Bassai dai. Chibana's Passai dai is also called Matsumura Passai by both Chibana schools as well as Mabuni schools. Chibana's Passai sho is refered to as Itosu Passai in Chibana schools, and Mabuni/Funakoshi's Bassai Sho, is referred to in at least some Chibana schools as Koryu which translates as "old or ancient way" much the way kobudu) (ICYMI, in Iha's schools this kata is also called Gusukumu Passai. My guess would be that this Gusukumu is the one mentioned in the Master Text as being Itosu's teacher.)

Hohan Soken also passed down two Passai kata, sho and dai. While the opening of his dai is unique, much of the rest maps closely to the Funakoshi/Mabuni Bassai Dai. Soken's Passai sho is unique to his system. Nakamura's Passai is unique. And certainly Kyan's Oyadamari Passai differs substantially enough to call it unique. 

There are other less widely known versions out there as well. 

Much the same can be said for Kusanku. There are many versions. I believe Itosu was the only one to pass down two, so he called them sho and dai. 

There are some who might believe that we can trace the origins of these various versions of kata back in time. I don't believe that is possible. Virtually nothing written with that kind of detail survived. 

I have seen numerous questions on this forum and elsewhere, that seek to understand the lineage of specific kata. Specifically, which is older, which descends from what, and especially, which is the "original" kata.

I do believe that we can benefit from comparative analysis of the members of the various kata families. We can learn what the similarities are and what the differences are. But it is unfortunate that we will never be able to determine how these various kata came to be. Is there an original from which modifications were made? We can never know. All we have are the kata.

Cayuga Karate


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## TimoS (Sep 13, 2012)

Cayuga Karate said:


> And certainly Kyan's Oyadamari Passai differs substantially enough to call it unique.


Which is one of the reasons Seibukan just calls the kata Passai. We have two Passai versions, but only one of them was passed on to us by Kyan sensei.


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## OldKarateGuy (Sep 15, 2012)

I'll add my two cents here. The symbol/character associated with "Dai" means "large", or sometimes "major", while "Sho" in that context might mean "small" or "minor". In JKA, the Dai form typically has larger (perhaps less technically difficult) techniques, and is taught first. The Sho forms typically start only with the 3rd dan syllabus, and have more intricate technique. So, the Sho forms are more advanced (by dan grade), but look less like a typically shotokan feel. I don't think the "major" and "minor" terms refer to some kind of value or importance, but rather to the respective place in the teaching progression. I think the previous post that most "Sho" forms derive from Itosu is correct.  
There is the noted oddity of Gojushiho Dai and Sho within Shotokan. In JKA, the Sho forms feels more like it should be Dai (and vice versa), and  Kanazawa (SKI) actually teaches it that way. Who knows why (or if) Nakayama taught it his way. 
In practice, I think we saw the Sho forms as a way to get some variety in our training at some point. Other than Gojushiho Sho, we seldom did a Sho form in competition, but it was fun in class learning something new. 
BTW, Tang Soo Do, which has a lot of superficial similarity to shotokan, has no Sho forms.


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## Ray B (Nov 3, 2012)

Re: Chibana

Chibana learned 2 Passai from Itosu. What was originally referred to as Passai Sho is now known as Passai Gwa,
Koryu Passai or Gusakuma, and Passai Dai was Itosu Passai (currently Kobayashi/Shorin's Passai Sho).

Chibana went to study with Tawada where he learned Matsumura Passai. When Chibana returned to Itosu, Itosu 
was so impressed that he suggested that Chibana drop Passai Gwa and renumber the Matsumura Passai to Dai and Itosu Passai to Sho.

Note: Matsumura Passai is also known as Tawada Passai.

Funakoshi and Mabuni kept the original order and never adopted the Matsumura Passai.


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