# Sublevel 4, Sublevel 5?



## Seabrook (Jun 27, 2005)

I have  a question for Mr. Chapel.

I was taking a look at the 2006 Kenpo Internationals in the Netherlands and noticed the list of instructors and their respective seminars. One of the instructors, is from my city of London, Ontario, Mr. Steve Stewart, who trains under Frank Trejo in Kenpo and George Dillman in kyusho jitsu. Steve is a very accomplished martial artist who has trained with many reputable masters.

My knowledge of sublevel 4 has been restricted to what I have read, but I noticed that he is teaching "sublevel 4 & 5" in his seminars. 

http://www.ikc2006.nl/

or taken directly from the website:

The Modern Science of Selfdefense

Sublevel 4 & 5

by
*Dr Steve Stewart PhD* 

I never knew there was anything called "sublevel 5".  Could you educate us about these areas?


Thanks in advance.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## MisterMike (Jun 27, 2005)

Why not 1, 2, and 3 as well. Why does the seminar skip to levels 4 and 5?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 27, 2005)

Check Infinite Insights for the Sub-levels. Oddly, as someone who plays in the SL-4 sandbox, I've never heard of this guy. SL-5? That would be a kick to see. It'd be fun to drop in on the seminar and see what, exactly, he refers to as 4 & 5. Particularly since Mr. Mills is scheduled at the same event, representing SL4.

Ah, to be a fly on that wall.

Regards,

Dave


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## Bode (Jun 27, 2005)

As far as I know, being a student of Doc's, there was no such term as "Sublevel 5" in Ed Parker's American Kenpo. 
 If Steve Stewart, who may be a great Martial Artist, is teaching it, then he has invented it to capitalize on a term that has been receiving much attention. 

 What I don't understand is that SL-4 refers the the sublevels contained within Contact Manipulation, the fourth level of confrontation. If we are to progress logically, then the number 5 in SL-5 must refer to another level of controntation that is even closer in range than "Contact Manipulation." What could that possilbly be? I've seen the demonstrations of Mr. Stewarts "no touch" knockouts. Perhaps SL-5 refers to the aspects of the arts that only involve the winning of a fight with telekenesis? 
 For the record, I don't believe anyone who say's they can perform a no touch knockout. I've seen it and it certainly looks like the power of suggestion to me. 

 In addition, everyone, including Steve Stewart, should keep in mind that SL-4 has been copywritten, by it's originator (Dr. Chapel), and anyone teaching it can be subject to copywrite infringement. Just a thought. I'm just happy to know that Mr. Mills will be in Holland to represent Sl-4. 

 So, if your out there Mr. Stewart, give us an explanation of SL-5. Better yet, call your material something else. Just don't take our (MSU) terms for you own use without at least asking or recieving some training from Doc. It's not much to ask.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 27, 2005)

If SL-4 is done at the closest distance, I'm thinking SL-5 must be what you do to someone when you're *ahem* *in* them?
artyon:


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## kevin kilroe (Jun 27, 2005)

That sounds VERY painful. Ouch!!


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## Bode (Jun 27, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> If SL-4 is done at the closest distance, I'm thinking SL-5 must be what you do to someone when you're *ahem* *in* them?


 I knew it was only a matter of time before somoene would take the distance analogy one step further. Dr. D, I am not shocked that it was you. (Only because I had already thought of it, just didn't have the guts to type it)

 But seriously, is everyone aware of how much direct plagarism happens in the martial arts. We recently found, word for word, our coursebook glossaries being used by another Kenpo school. Complete with defenitions for Circular Point of Origin.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 27, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I have  a question for Mr. Chapel.
> 
> I was taking a look at the 2006 Kenpo Internationals in the Netherlands and noticed the list of instructors and their respective seminars. One of the instructors, is from my city of London, Ontario, Mr. Steve Stewart, who trains under Frank Trejo in Kenpo and George Dillman in kyusho jitsu. Steve is a very accomplished martial artist who has trained with many reputable masters.
> 
> ...



Mr Stewart has a Ph. D. ? I am surprised by this. Could someone expand in what area of study? Thank you.


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## Rob Broad (Jun 28, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Mr Stewart has a Ph. D. ? I am surprised by this. Could someone expand in what area of study? Thank you.



The claim is from the University of Western Ontario in London Ontario, but that is hady, then there are claims of studies for Alzheimers, but then who remember stuff like that.  The 6th degree is promotion of the art if I know my kenpo, and that is fine, but maybe some people should conatct Mike Donovan in London Ontario(orginator of Olympic Karate) to find out the scoop for Blue belt to 3rd degree Black.

Maybe Sub-Level 5 is sleight of hand, while you are distracte by the knock out someone is emptying your wallet.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 28, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> The claim is from the University of Western Ontario in London Ontario, but that is hady, then there are claims of studies for Alzheimers, but then who remember stuff like that.  The 6th degree is promotion of the art if I know my kenpo, and that is fine, but maybe some people should conatct Mike Donovan in London Ontario(orginator of Olympic Karate) to find out the scoop for Blue belt to 3rd degree Black.
> 
> Maybe Sub-Level 5 is sleight of hand, while you are distracte by the knock out someone is emptying your wallet.



The University Of Western Ontario.

Could this be an honorary degree? Oh Well, it are the surprises that keep it interesting.


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## Seabrook (Jun 28, 2005)

Bode said:
			
		

> Perhaps SL-5 refers to the aspects of the arts that only involve the winning of a fight with telekenesis?
> For the record, I don't believe anyone who say's they can perform a no touch knockout. I've seen it and it certainly looks like the power of suggestion to me.


Agreed. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Seabrook (Jun 28, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> The claim is from the University of Western Ontario in London Ontario, but that is hady, then there are claims of studies for Alzheimers, but then who remember stuff like that. The 6th degree is promotion of the art if I know my kenpo, and that is fine, but maybe some people should conatct Mike Donovan in London Ontario(orginator of Olympic Karate) to find out the scoop for Blue belt to 3rd degree Black.
> 
> Maybe Sub-Level 5 is sleight of hand, while you are distracte by the knock out someone is emptying your wallet.


Rob,

I received an email stating he just got his 7th in EPAK.

BTW - how was the WKKA camp in April? How is everything up north?

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com'


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## eyebeams (Jun 28, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> The University Of Western Ontario.
> 
> Could this be an honorary degree? Oh Well, it are the surprises that keep it interesting.


 It's an actual accredited university. However, Stewart only claims to have a BSc in this interview:

http://www.martialinfo.com/owners/onlinemag/view.asp?mag_issue=7

   It is highly unlikely -- but not, I suppose, impossible -- that he acquired a PhD from Western in the intervening two years.

  But hey -- phantom doctorates and mysterious sub-levels? Who cares? Better not to rock the boat, eh?

 EDIT: Ah, wait -- his bio here:

http://www.combatpressurepoints.com/masterstevestewartbiography.html

 . . . says he has a Doctorate in Acupuncture, whatever that means. It wouldn't have anything to do with UWO, though.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 28, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> It's an actual accredited university. However, Stewart only claims to have a BSc in this interview:
> 
> http://www.martialinfo.com/owners/onlinemag/view.asp?mag_issue=7
> 
> ...




I would not think a Docorate in Acupuncture from anywhere, would refer to it as a Ph. D. I would have expected, MD, DO, DA anything, but the Ph. D.

As to rocking the boat, maybe I should not, you never know when a mysterious check may not clear.


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## Rob Broad (Jun 28, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Rob,
> 
> I received an email stating he just got his 7th in EPAK.
> 
> ...




I didn't make it down to the WKKA camp, work got too hectic.  But I plan on going to the one in Montreal in August, it will be a fun event.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 28, 2005)

Alright. I just got some footage of this guy doing 5-swords while wearing a 5th. He looked about as solid, crisp, clean and quick as I would expect a green in AK to be. I'm sure there isn't really that big a diff between East and West coast kenpo, or North of the Border & South of the border kenpo; not a large enough difference to account for such a disparity in skills.

I assure you: He is not a representation of SL4. He doesn't even look to be a decent representative of old-school "motion" kenpo. And I guarantee you Doc can not only do a wicked SL-4 5-swords, but any footage you find of him doing 5-swords in his "motion kenpo" days will not disappoint. As I've said before, folks may not like where Doc has gone with SL4, but even among his most vocal detractors, you won't find anyone that'll say "Doc don't know kenpo". This guy, on the other hand...

Now, if all y'all will excuse me, I'm off to my corner to self-promote to the founding master of Sub-Level 10, or some such damn thing.

Regards,

Dave Crouch


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 28, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Now, if all y'all will excuse me, I'm off to my corner to self-promote to the founding master of Sub-Level 10, or some such damn thing.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave Crouch



Cool! Do you need a vice president?


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## Rick Wade (Jun 28, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Cool! Do you need a vice president?



I think he will need a heck of a master at arms for that style.  

LOL

V/R

Rick


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## arnisador (Jun 28, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> The University Of Western Ontario.


 Good school.



> Could this be an honorary degree? Oh Well, it are the surprises that keep it interesting.


 Not if it is a Ph.D., I'd think--maybe if it was a D.H.L. or something like that. It'd be easy to check by calling the school's Registrar.

 A doctorate in accupuncture would usually be a Doctor of Oriental Medicine degree, I would imagine.


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## dearnis.com (Jun 29, 2005)

Yes, normally an OMD.  Also, I believe, normally a 4-5 year program.


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## Doc (Jun 29, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I have  a question for Mr. Chapel.
> 
> I was taking a look at the 2006 Kenpo Internationals in the Netherlands and noticed the list of instructors and their respective seminars. One of the instructors, is from my city of London, Ontario, Mr. Steve Stewart, who trains under Frank Trejo in Kenpo and George Dillman in kyusho jitsu. Steve is a very accomplished martial artist who has trained with many reputable masters.
> 
> ...


Mr. Seabrook,

As a long time Kenpo student, I know of no references ever made to the existence of a 5th distance as outlined by Mr. Parker Sr. However because I  am not "all knowing" I will leave that explanation to Mr. Stewart, whose kenpo training would appear on the surface to be somewhat limited.

Of the four distances, all of them have sub-level categories as I was taught, with the fourth distance containing the most difficult and controlling "Control Manipulation."

Most recently many have jumped on the "martial science SL-" bandwagon to promote what they do. Although in many ways it is a compliment to the material, I am concerned about persons gaining a false impression what the "sub-levels" are all about. Fortunately I have been personally exposed to enough people who can tell the real from the phoney.

Part of the misconception and why some adopt these terms is because they think they know what it is all about. There was a period when everyone thought SL-4 Martial Science was about "Contact Manipulation," so they claimed they had been doing it for years. Wrong! Then they surmised after I did a couple of camps and knocked people out, that it is all about nerve strikes. Wrong again!

Although SL-4 contains all of these things, what it is really about is the bio-mechanical physics of dynamic human interaction, and when it comes to that, I'll stand toe-to-toe with anyone regardless of the title or background.  Claims are easy, but I've put in the work and continue to do so and will match knowledge with anyone. It is a fascinating field of study, and as more become exposed and desire the education, you'll hear more about, and see more of SubLevel Four kenpo Concepts.

Its not "magic," it truly is "science," and you can't learn it by re-arranging techniques.


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## Seabrook (Jun 30, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Mr. Seabrook,
> 
> As a long time Kenpo student, I know of no references ever made to the existence of a 5th distance as outlined by Mr. Parker Sr. However because I am not "all knowing" I will leave that explanation to Mr. Stewart, whose kenpo training would appear on the surface to be somewhat limited.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mr. Chapel for the info. Like I said, I have never heard of a sublevel 5, and wanted my intuition about it to be confirmed directly by you. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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