# Am I missing something in those drills?



## O'Malley (Mar 11, 2019)

Not technically judo, but I've read about Peter Ralston, the founder of this Cheng Hsin school. He's got a background in judo and chinese arts and allegedly won shuai jiao tournaments. He then founded his own style and is pretty big on relaxation and proper body movement.

I need your expert eyes on this: is there anything special about the drills below? Some smoothness/effortlessness/good body mechanics? Something that goes beyond compliant partners? Do you see value in it? Thanks for the info.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 11, 2019)

Ive never seen these videos before, but I did read his book The Art of Effortless Power.  I didn’t get any value from it.  The book read like he kept telling the readers that he was going to share something profound with them, but never got around to it.

The videos look like self defense against someone who does not realize he is in a fight.


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2019)

No...........


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 11, 2019)

To me, these look like the typical stuff used to train pure aiki. They're fun for training that bit of principle, but don't really map well to actual application in any SD or fight situation. What they're good for is learning to recognize the moment when that kind of effortless power is available. If they're used as an advanced drill for folks who already can do the techniques in a realistic fashion (closer to Judo practice), then they're useful. Or if they're used as a support drill for folks at any level (where they're not the focus, but just another drill for working on a specific concept). If they're the only way (or even most of the way) the techniques are practiced, they leave out most of the utility of the techniques.

Of course, that's my view of pure-aiki training, too.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 11, 2019)

Nothing particularly special. They’re cooperative drills meant to teach a certain aspect of timing and they’re okay for that purpose. As Gerry says, they’re not sufficient by themselves to make a practitioner functional with the techniques in question.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 11, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> The videos look like self defense against someone who does not realize he is in a fight.


Agree! His opponent's respond is not normal. In the 2nd clip, I don't know what his opponent is trying to do to him. His opponent puts both hands on his shoulders, for what?

If you allow your opponent to have 2 free hands, there is something wrong in your entering strategy.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 12, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! His opponent's respond is not normal. In the 2nd clip, I don't know what his opponent is trying to do to him. His opponent puts both hands on his shoulders, for what?
> 
> If you allow your opponent to have 2 free hands, there is something wrong in your entering strategy.


He puts both hands on his shoulder because that's the starting point of the technique. You wouldn't use that technique that way while a hand is free attempting a punch, for instance. But if they shoulder-clinch, there you go.


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## dvcochran (Mar 12, 2019)

It has been well covered in other replies but this is a good example of how you can't go full power/full speed all the time. I get hardening your body but you just can't sustain it every class every technique. Yes the receiving partner is "giving" to the technique. But it is normal give and take in practice. For me, this is where a balance of open air drills at full speed/power, drills with a partner at reduced speed/power, and SOME drills with a partner at full speed/power is very important.

***Edit: Of course, some finishing drills simply cannot be practiced with a partner at full speed/power for obvious safety reasons. I want to workout with the same person next class.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 12, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> He puts both hands on his shoulder because that's the starting point of the technique. You wouldn't use that technique that way while a hand is free attempting a punch, for instance. But if they shoulder-clinch, there you go.


I don't know the purpose of the "shoulder clinch". What do you intend to achieve?

IMO, all wrestling technique should be trained with "entering strategy - how to set up". When you set up your technique, you want to make sure that your opponent's hand will not give you any trouble at that moment.

Here are some normal clinch suppose to look like. When you wrestle, you want to control your opponent's both arms. You then move in and apply your technique from there.

In OP's 2nd clip, the hand control can be more precise.

He can use:

- double under hooks (since his arms are below his opponent's arms),
- single under hook with arm wrap,
- ...


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 12, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! His opponent's respond is not normal. In the 2nd clip, I don't know what his opponent is trying to do to him. His opponent puts both hands on his shoulders, for what?
> 
> If you allow your opponent to have 2 free hands, there is something wrong in your entering strategy.





Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't know the purpose of the "shoulder clinch". What do you intend to achieve?
> 
> IMO, all wrestling technique should be trained with "entering strategy - how to set up". When you set up your technique, you want to make sure that your opponent's hand will not give you any trouble at that moment.
> 
> ...



The technique in question is called okuri ashi harai in Judo. It's often taught initially in a very cooperative fashion just to get a sense for the timing and footwork. The partner being thrown is basically being a mobile throwing dummy. Later on the opponent's reaction can be made more realistic.

Here's a basic cooperative learning drill:





Here's a circular version like what is being drilled in the OP's video:





Here's actual application in competition:


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 12, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The technique in question is called okuri ashi harai in Judo.


In both clips, his opponent has grips on the upper collar and under elbow, 2 correct contact points used in jacket wrestling which is better than the "shoulder clinch". In non-jacket wrestling, it's equivalent to arm wrap and single neck control.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 12, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In both clips, his opponent has grips on the upper collar and under elbow, 2 correct contact points used in jacket wrestling which is better than the "shoulder clinch". In non-jacket wrestling, it's equivalent to arm wrap and single neck control.


Yeah, in the original clip from the "Cheng Hsin" school, they seem to be completely ignoring correct grips. I'm hoping this is just for the sake of a beginner drill focused solely on the footwork and that they address the correct grips later on. If not … let's just say they probably won't have a lot of success.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 12, 2019)

Here's a no-gi version with correct grips:


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 12, 2019)

The Chinese wrestling uses push and pull to set up this foot sweep.


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## O'Malley (Mar 13, 2019)

Thanks everyone for the answers.



Flying Crane said:


> Ive never seen these videos before, but I did read his book The Art of Effortless Power.  I didn’t get any value from it.  The book read like he kept telling the readers that he was going to share something profound with them, but never got around to it.
> 
> The videos look like self defense against someone who does not realize he is in a fight.



Don't know about that one but I've sifted through another book of his, "The Principles of Effortless Power". Some ideas were interesting but it was poorly written.



gpseymour said:


> To me, these look like the typical stuff used to train pure aiki. They're fun for training that bit of principle, but don't really map well to actual application in any SD or fight situation. What they're good for is learning to recognize the moment when that kind of effortless power is available. If they're used as an advanced drill for folks who already can do the techniques in a realistic fashion (closer to Judo practice), then they're useful. Or if they're used as a support drill for folks at any level (where they're not the focus, but just another drill for working on a specific concept). If they're the only way (or even most of the way) the techniques are practiced, they leave out most of the utility of the techniques.
> 
> Of course, that's my view of pure-aiki training, too.



In the Takemusu/Dentoo/Iwama style of traditional aikido, flowing cooperative training is called ki no nagare ("flow of ki") and it is studied at a later stage to get a feel for how basic techniques are done in dynamic situations (so that you can play with timing and position). As Saito-sensei writes in Takemusu Aikido, vol.1:

"_The importance of a solid understanding of basic techniques cannot be over-emphasized. Many aikido schools teach primarily “ki no nagare,” or ki ﬂow techniques. In this kind of training, techniques are executed from a moving start dispensing altogether with basic practice where you allow yourself to be grabbed ﬁrmly. This sort of prearranged practice is successful only when both partners cooperate fully. Problems occur, however, when students accustomed only to this kind of training are confronted with a strong, non-cooperative opponent. Training in only ki no nagare leaves one totally unprepared for the power and ferocity of a real attack. The weak, undirected attacks characteristic of this kind of training are common in modern aikido, yet this way of training runs directly counter to the martial principles taught by the founder. 

Those who practice basic techniques, as opposed to focusing exclusively on ki no nagare, learn how to deal with progressively stronger attacks. In order to do this, you must be sure that when grabbing your training partner, you do so ﬁrmly and with real intent. If your partner is unable to move, then lessen the power of your attack until he or she is able to execute a proper technique. Always gage the intensity of your attack to the level of your partner_."

Once your understanding of basic, solid techniques is good enough, you learn to deal with moving people:






@Tony: I really liked the videos!

Looks like the drill in itself is nothing special. I was interested in your opinion on how those guys perform to know whether Ralston's ideas about relaxation and effective movement are of any value. Looks like it's nothing special.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2019)

O'Malley said:


> about relaxation and effective movement are of any value.


When you are relax, your opponent is also relax. There is no advantage there. If you can make your opponent to be nervous, that will be to your advantage. Old saying said, "To be kind to your opponent is to be cruel to yourself."

Here is an opposite approach. You grab on your opponent and drag him in circle. At the same time, you don't let his hands to touch you. The moment that your opponent tries to grab you, you break his grip apart. You will make your opponent very nervous this way (because you have control over him, but he has no control over you).


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## Flying Crane (Mar 13, 2019)

O'Malley said:


> Thanks everyone for the answers.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know about that one but I've sifted through another book of his, "The Principles of Effortless Power". Some ideas were interesting but it was poorly written.


Probably the same book, it was over twenty years ago and Ive likely muddled the title.


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## paitingman (Mar 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you are relax, your opponent is also relax. There is no advantage there. If you can make your opponent to be nervous, that will be to your advantage. Old saying said, "To be kind to your opponent is to be cruel to yourself."
> 
> Here is an opposite approach. You grab on your opponent and drag him in circle. At the same time, you don't let his hands to touch you. The moment that your opponent tries to grab you, you break his grip apart. You will make your opponent very nervous this way (because you have control over him, but he has no control over you).


In my experience, I think mainland East Asian wrestling styles, basically Mongolian flavored, have a much more, "Get in there, wrangle 'em, and toss 'em around," kind of approach when compared to Japanese styles.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 14, 2019)

paitingman said:


> In my experience, I think mainland East Asian wrestling styles, basically Mongolian flavored, have a much more, "Get in there, wrangle 'em, and toss 'em around," kind of approach when compared to Japanese styles.


I'm not a Judo guy. But my Judo friend told me that Judo is to use the minimum effort to achieve the maximum result.

In Chinese wrestling, you have to give before you can take. You just can't wait forever. In order to give, you have to apply on your opponent enough force to make him to think that you are serious.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2019)

O'Malley said:


> Thanks everyone for the answers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like that quote from Saito. I don't think I've ever visited an Iwama-style dojo. I need to find one to see what training looks like there. Thanks for sharing that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm not a Judo guy. But my Judo friend told me that Judo is to use the minimum effort to achieve the maximum result.
> 
> In Chinese wrestling, you have to give before you can take. You just can't wait forever. In order to give, you have to apply on your opponent enough force to make him to think that you are serious.


That's a common tactic in Judo, as well. Forward pressure (enough to be a threat if they don't stop it) is often used to induce resistance needed for the desired technique.


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