# Kosutemi Seieikan - Argument And Dissension



## Gene Williams (Oct 27, 2005)

Well Egg, 
You seem to be a little defensive about the kata thing, and you seem to understand that there are traditional ryu that these kata came from. You are training in yet another derivative style which mixes and matches to suit the "founder's" tastes. I don't know what causes people to run off and start their own "style," but it is a real problem in this country. I can understand starting a kai, an organization within which Shito ryu, Shotokan, or Goju, for instance, is taught. This happens for political reasons, sometimes a Soke (a real one, not some Western wannabee) will authorize or give his blessing to something like that. But, the karate within a kai like that is still the original ryu. But, this business of mixing and matching kata (and usually inflating one's lineage or "expanding" on the truth of one's background) is like a bunch of kids playing with Lego's in their play room..."let's see what I can make if I do this..." I just don't see much point in it EXCEPT ...ego...TAH-DAH!!!
I'm sure that Rob or I could come up with plenty of justification for starting our own ryu (far more than most mentioned in these forums). We have menkyo (lots of 'em) from Japanese or Okinawan guys, we have trained for years in orthodox ryu, we know a little Japanese and can write a few kanji (Rob may know more than me), we have trained in weapons, iaido, etc. Why, Hell, I'm sure we both have enough imagination to stretch the seminars we've been to under well known Japanese/Okinawan "masters" into "training with" them (implying, of course that we were some kind of live-in student for years). AND, Rob and I can really do the kata...I mean, like, we actually train a lot. So, all that and competence, too. WOW! I can just see my Soke certificate on the wall now! (Rob, if you are reading this, send me 500 dollars and I'll mail you your Soke diploma. Do you want to be 9th or 10th dan?) But, we don't do that, we don't make those claims.
Now, Egg (and others) why do you suppose it is that Rob and I and many others out there with more skill and knowledge than us don't do that? Is it because we are less skilled? Have less training? Not as bright? What is the reason....let me  see, hmmmmm...DAMN, I just can't figure...oh. well, it must be some stupid reason like honesty or integrity or respect for the tradition. How silly of me...
Why don't you find a real ryu and a real sensei and just be good friends with Mr. Madden? You all could still have a beer together once in a while.


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## The Kai (Oct 27, 2005)

Man
You have a interesting take on the history of karate


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## Gene Williams (Oct 27, 2005)

I wasn't discussing the history of karate.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 27, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> I wasn't discussing the history of karate.


 
Indeed you were not.

I am all for discussion of Seieikan and it's differences/similarities with traditional arts; but, I would not consider such aggressive commentary to be discussion.  There is absolutely nothing to be gained by this bootless flaming.

Thank you.


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## Gene Williams (Oct 27, 2005)

I don't see that as flaming. It was a pretty straight forward statement with some examples that were not much of a stretch. A little sarcasm is  a literary technique designed to highlight a point. Now, if I had said that you are hooked up with twits...THAT would have been flaming.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 27, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> A little sarcasm is a literary technique designed to highlight a point.


 
I'm well aware of what sarcasm is, thank you.  How it furthers one's point is significantly less clear.


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## Gene Williams (Oct 27, 2005)

So, why don't you respond to what I wrote instead of pretending to be injured?


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 27, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Well Egg,
> You seem to be a little defensive about the kata thing, and you seem to understand that there are traditional ryu that these kata came from. You are training in yet another derivative style which mixes and matches to suit the "founder's" tastes. I don't know what causes people to run off and start their own "style," but it is a real problem in this country. I can understand starting a kai, an organization within which Shito ryu, Shotokan, or Goju, for instance, is taught. This happens for political reasons, sometimes a Soke (a real one, not some Western wannabee) will authorize or give his blessing to something like that. But, the karate within a kai like that is still the original ryu. But, this business of mixing and matching kata (and usually inflating one's lineage or "expanding" on the truth of one's background) is like a bunch of kids playing with Lego's in their play room..."let's see what I can make if I do this..." I just don't see much point in it EXCEPT ...ego...TAH-DAH!!!
> I'm sure that Rob or I could come up with plenty of justification for starting our own ryu (far more than most mentioned in these forums). We have menkyo (lots of 'em) from Japanese or Okinawan guys, *we have trained for years in orthodox ryu, we know a little Japanese and can write a few kanji* (Rob may know more than me), we have trained in weapons, iaido, etc. Why, Hell, I'm sure we both have enough imagination to stretch the seminars we've been to under well known Japanese/Okinawan "masters" into "training with" them (implying, of course that we were some kind of live-in student for years). AND, Rob and I can really do the kata...I mean, like, we actually train a lot. So, all that and competence, too. WOW! I can just see my Soke certificate on the wall now! (Rob, if you are reading this, send me 500 dollars and I'll mail you your Soke diploma. Do you want to be 9th or 10th dan?) But, we don't do that, we don't make those claims.
> Now, Egg (and others) *why do you suppose it is that* Rob and *I and many others out there with more skill and knowledge than us don't do that? Is it because we are less skilled? Have less training? Not as bright? What is the reason....let me see, hmmmmm...DAMN, I just can't figure...oh. well, it must be some stupid reason like honesty or integrity or respect for the tradition. *How silly of me...
> Why don't you find a real ryu and a real sensei and just be good friends with Mr. Madden? You all could still have a beer together once in a while.


 
so .....let me get this straight.....if an okinawan guy runs off and starts his own style based on anothers teaching......thats A-OK in your book. but if a white guy does it, he doesnt know a god damned thing?

so....you've studied hard, taken your vitamins and said your prayers. you can brush a few kanji and perform some kata.

does this mean you can act like an a**hole anytime you want too?


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## The Kai (Oct 27, 2005)

Might just become a tradition!


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## Kosokun (Oct 27, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Might just become a tradition!



If you've followed the history of how organizations form and break up, you'll find that it *is* the tradition.

Kidding aside, Gene's the real deal guys.  He's been around the corner a bunch and like me, more times than not, the guys we've seen popping up as soke here in the states over the years are, well charlatans.   Gene's a valuable resource for this board, and when you get to know him, he's got a great sense of humor.  He plays a little rough, sometimes, but like the tough fighter in the dojo, you can learn a lot from him and improve because he pushes you.


Rob


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 27, 2005)

Kosokun said:
			
		

> If you've followed the history of how organizations form and break up, you'll find that it *is* the tradition.
> 
> Kidding aside, Gene's the real deal guys. He's been around the corner a bunch and like me, more times than not, the guys we've seen popping up as soke here in the states over the years are, well charlatans. Gene's a valuable resource for this board, and when you get to know him, he's got a great sense of humor. He plays a little rough, sometimes, but like the tough fighter in the dojo, you can learn a lot from him and improve because he pushes you.
> 
> ...


 
Im sure that Gene is the "real deal", but his position as a teacher and valuable resource is invalidated by his lack of spirit in the quest for learning something new.
he tends to make remarks before he knows who are what it is he is talking about.
Being a great fighter in the dojo has nothing to do with interacting with your peers. 
Its not hard for some people to be a jerk........why doesnt he impress us with his knowledge, not with a traditionalist ego that no one gives a crap about.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 27, 2005)

Kosokun said:
			
		

> Gene's a valuable resource for this board, and when you get to know him, he's got a great sense of humor. He plays a little rough, sometimes, but like the tough fighter in the dojo, you can learn a lot from him and improve because he pushes you.
> 
> 
> Rob


 
So sorry, Kosokun; but, sarcasm and derision as teaching tools is utterly dysfunctional.  Moreover, this is not a dojo. It's a discussion board.  Not the same at all.

respectfully,

egg


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## Kosokun (Oct 27, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> so .....let me get this straight.....if an okinawan guy runs off and starts his own style based on anothers teaching......thats A-OK in your book. but if a white guy does it, he doesnt know a god damned thing?


If someone is teaching something that's based on another's teaching, then it's that other person's style. It's not appropriate for the fellow, Asian or not, to call himself soke of this other person's style. It's misleading and downright fraudulent for him to say that it's a new style and call himself "Soke". 

If someone creates somethng that's genuinely new, then perhaps that'd be a good candidate for Soke. Perhaps Takayuki Kubota might be exemplary of this.

Rob


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## Navarre (Oct 27, 2005)

Kosokun said:
			
		

> Kidding aside, Gene's the real deal guys.  Rob


 
I've made no assumptions about his credibility. That seems to have been his approach, certainly not mine.

And I sensed no "kidding" in his remarks. Frequently ppl are quite happy to be as insulting as they please and then try to repackage it as "honesty". Some comments are respectful and some are not. It is quite clear where his statements fell.

I completely agree with you about charlatan sokes and such. From white belt all the way to grandmaster there are those who rely on nothing but hot air and a belt to try and promote themselves.

However, Mr. Madden is quite accomplished and recognized. Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan is a legitimate system. 

If one prefers to believe it is not or wants to ramble on with a continuing thread where the semantics of the word "legitimate" is endlessly debated, they would probably be happier spending their time in the "Bible, Hell ..." thread where everyone gets the chance to add pointless rhetoric ad nauseum.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 27, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> If one prefers to believe it is not or wants to ramble on with a continuing thread where the semantics of the word "legitimate" is endlessly debated, they would probably be happier spending their time in the "Bible, Hell ..." thread where everyone gets the chance to add pointless rhetoric ad nauseum.


 
I agree.  This thread was started simply to talk about training in Seieikan.  It is not meant to be an 'Endless Debate' thread.


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 27, 2005)

Kosokun said:
			
		

> If someone is teaching something that's based on another's teaching, then it's that other person's style. It's not appropriate for the fellow, Asian or not, to call himself soke of this other person's style. It's misleading and downright fraudulent for him to say that it's a new style and call himself "Soke".
> 
> If someone creates somethng that's genuinely new, then perhaps that'd be a good candidate for Soke. Perhaps Takayuki Kubota might be exemplary of this.
> 
> Rob


 
the whole soke issue has been gone over too times on martialtalk.
founding a system does not make one a soke.
this is way off topic though.


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## Gene Williams (Oct 27, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> Im sure that Gene is the "real deal", but his position as a teacher and valuable resource is invalidated by his lack of spirit in the quest for learning something new.
> he tends to make remarks before he knows who are what it is he is talking about.
> Being a great fighter in the dojo has nothing to do with interacting with your peers.
> Its not hard for some people to be a jerk........why doesnt he impress us with his knowledge, not with a traditionalist ego that no one gives a crap about.


 
Being a great fighter in a dojo has nothing to do with being "the real deal." Speaking of real deal, I notice you list the World Head of Sokeship Council on the first page of your website. Now, just how am I supposed to take you seriously? I learn something new every time I train...doing the same kata and applications I've done for years. Suggesting that tradition and the orthodox ryu might possibly be a better place to look for the spirit of Okinawan karate than some wannabee's made up style (regardless of what a wonderful person the guy might be) is hardly a "traditionalist ego."  The "quest for learning something new" is a little more than playing around with anyone's ideas of what karate is and mixing and matching kata in the backyard. But, just as long as you're having fun I guess it doesn't matter.


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 27, 2005)

your MO is crystal clear gene........its the second time you have mentioned the link to the MACS page.
it doesnt hurt my feelings in the least.
but the fact remains that you do not exhibit the qualities that make someone the real deal. 
you seem to be more interested in showing people how negative and closed your mind is to the possibility that anything other than traditional is worth a crap.
i would wager that a good many people see your ego, even if you dont.
if being good means being a good jerk.....keep it up, sensei


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 27, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Being a great fighter in a dojo has nothing to do with being "the real deal." Speaking of real deal, I notice you list the World Head of Sokeship Council on the first page of your website. Now, just how am I supposed to take you seriously? I* learn something new every time I train...doing the same kata and applications I've done for years.* Suggesting that tradition and the orthodox ryu might possibly be a better place to look for the spirit of Okinawan karate than some wannabee's made up style (regardless of what a wonderful person the guy might be) is hardly a "traditionalist ego." *The "quest for learning something new" is a little more than playing around with anyone's ideas of what karate is and mixing and matching kata in the backyard*. But, just as long as you're having fun I guess it doesn't matter.


 
gene, i think its great you learn something new everytime you practice kata.......it tells me that you dont yet think you know it all.

playing around with ideas is the first step to discovery......you do it everytime you practice a kata or bunkai, but i still dont see how making up something new is so dreadfully awful?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 27, 2005)

I think there are better areas of the forum to discuss these particular topics.  Maybe this should be spun off into a new thread?


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## Flatlander (Oct 27, 2005)

==============================================
*MOD WARNING:*

Please keep the discussion on topic, and at a courteous level.  Feel free to use the ignore feature.  Remember that sniping and personal insults will not be tolerated.  

-Dan Bowman-
-MT Senior Moderator-
==============================================


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## Navarre (Oct 27, 2005)

Thank you, Dan. 

Respectfully,


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## Gene Williams (Oct 27, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> your MO is crystal clear gene........its the second time you have mentioned the link to the MACS page.
> it doesnt hurt my feelings in the least.
> but the fact remains that you do not exhibit the qualities that make someone the real deal.
> you seem to be more interested in showing people how negative and closed your mind is to the possibility that anything other than traditional is worth a crap.
> ...


 
So, what is my MO, as you like to put it? Questioning BS mutual rank societies? Raising legitimate critical questions about homemade karate wannabees? Apparently, anyone who doesn't want to play "let's make up a karate style" is "close minded and a jerk. I'll wager, and I could be wrong (and if I see evidence that I'm wrong I'll be the first to apologize), that in any traditional Okinawan karate dojo you'd look about like a green belt.


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 27, 2005)

see thread


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 27, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> So, what is my MO, as you like to put it? Questioning BS mutual rank societies? Raising legitimate critical questions about homemade karate wannabees? Apparently, anyone who doesn't want to play "let's make up a karate style" is "close minded and a jerk. I'll wager, and I could be wrong (and if I see evidence that I'm wrong I'll be the first to apologize), that in any traditional Okinawan karate dojo you'd look about like a green belt.


 
maybe you should make a new thread, gene.
it seems like you're still under the impression that this forum is used as your personal bashing site.
real mature, sensei.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 27, 2005)

All right, guys...take it outside.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 28, 2005)

I am going of subject for a minute. 
Every one who develops a new style/system changes it a little using the information they have learned from some previous training.  They may combine techniques from various training , they may add techniques that where not in the systems previously studied, the may change karta(forms) a little because they wish to emphasis feet not hands or low stance vs. high, etc.
  the Okinawan forms and stances are not exactly what theChinesee did and theJapanesee andKoreann forms are slightly different than the Okinawan. Each was based on something else but different in ways because of the understanding of the form by the person teaching it or because the person wanted to emphasis some thing different.

now no where in the original post of this thread do I see any reference to 
sokeship councils or to the discussion of such or their validity. so that being said


Mod Warring
Keep to the subject

Sheldon Bedell
mt mod


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 28, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> now no where in the original post of this thread do I see any reference to sokeship councils or to the discussion of such or their validity. so that being said
> 
> 
> Mod Warring
> ...


 
Thank you.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 30, 2006)

Split From Main Kosutemi Seieikan Thread


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