# "Modern Arnis: The Next Generation"



## Guro Harold

In the article, "Modern Arnis: The Next Generation" (Black Belt Magazine, August 1998, by Paul O' Grady, M.S.), he wrote of the next generation being: Dan Anderson, Rick Lee Ward, Eric Alexander, Jaye Spiro, Tim Hartman, and Michael Donavan.

Who are the people listed above, what is their current contribution to Modern Arnis, and who do see as the up and coming leaders in Modern Arnis?


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## Guro Harold

Here is some links for more information on GM Rick Lee Ward:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=458929#post458929
http://www.blueridgekungfu.net/.


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## tshadowchaser

Who do the men mentioned above consider to be the students they now have that will impact the art the most


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## Bester

I've only heard of 2 of them.


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## DrBarber

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Who do the men mentioned above consider to be the students they now have that will impact the art the most


 
Hey There, Shadowchaser,

Very nice idea and twist on the thread; the students of new generation that followed and trained with the late Professor.

My choices would be:

Sifu Peter Vargas, Guro Oscar Lopez and Guro Dan Maize who learned under PG Tom Bolden and are currently members of the American Modern Arnis Associates.  They all can be seen on the video clips from the AMAA site found on this forum under the video section.

From my own Independent Escrima-Kenpo Arnis Associates, I would refer people to Guro Richard Curren, Guro Tim Kashino, Guro Paul Martin and Guro Keith Roosa.  Kashino and Martin can be found on the video series filmed at the Modern Arnis Symposium.  I do not know of any video of Curren and Roosa at this time.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## kruzada

I only recognize two of these new leaders of Modern Arnis, namely Master Dan Anderson and Datu Tim Hartman.

I remember reading the aforementioned Black Belt magazine article and being upset that not one master from the Philippines was mentioned. We are all doing our part to carry the torch for Modern Arnis, but no matter what country you practice Modern Arnis in we should always remember that it is an art that is inextricably bound to the Philippines as it's place of origin, and that there are many Masters and Grandmasters in the Philippines that are willing to share their first hand knowledge of Arnis with us, if we are willing to accept their support and friendship. 

One of Grandmaster Remy's dreams was to spread Modern Arnis throughout the world, and he achieved this dream with the help of the friends and followers that he met in America and Europe. But another dream that he held very dear to his heart was that his system would elevate the prestige of Arnis in the Philippines, so that Filipinos throughout the country would come to love and appreciate this rare and unique facet of our cultural heritage. The masters in the Philippines have worked very hard to make this dream a reality. Now 4 decades later, with the support of the late Grandmaster Remy Presas, Modern Arnis is the most widely practiced system of Filipino Martial Arts practiced in the Philippines thanks to their combined efforts and members of the newly formed IMAFP. For more information visit www.imafp.com.

I would like to add to the previously mentioned list, the leaders of Modern Arnis that reside in the Philippines, some who have already travelled abroad to share their knowledge of Modern Arnis.

Grandmasters; Roberto Presas and Vicente Sanchez 

Senior Masters; Cristino Vasquez, Rodel Dagooc, Rene Tongson, Samuel Dulay, Armando Soteco and Noel Penaredondo

We should all be working together to preserve Grandmaster Remy's art, no matter what country we are from, without all of the bickering and political divisions that have surfaced since his untlmely passing. This is what he would have wanted, and if you carry the name of Modern Arnis, no matter what organization you are from, you should put Grandmaster Remy's vision ahead of your own personal goals and aspirations for the art, because no matter how much time passes, there will always only be one "Father" of Modern Arnis. We should do our best not to tarnish the reputation of his Modern Arnis with the stain of our egos, especially those who are stepping forward to be the Next Generation of Leaders.

-Rich Acosta



			
				Palusut said:
			
		

> In the article, "Modern Arnis: The Next Generation" (Black Belt Magazine, August 1998, by Paul O' Grady, M.S.), he wrote of the next generation being: Dan Anderson, Rick Lee Ward, Eric Alexander, Jaye Spiro, Tim Hartman, and Michael Donavan.
> 
> Who are the people listed above, what is their current contribution to Modern Arnis, and who do see as the up and coming leaders in Modern Arnis?


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## Guro Harold

Hi Rich,

Thanks for your response and info.

It appeared that the article had a US regional view of the leaders at the time, i.e, "Southeastern US", "Northeastern US..."

Thanks again,

-Palusut


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## Bob Hubbard

Palusut said:
			
		

> In the article, "Modern Arnis: The Next Generation" (Black Belt Magazine, August 1998, by Paul O' Grady, M.S.), he wrote of the next generation being: Dan Anderson, Rick Lee Ward, Eric Alexander, Jaye Spiro, Tim Hartman, and Michael Donavan.
> 
> Who are the people listed above, what is their current contribution to Modern Arnis, and who do see as the up and coming leaders in Modern Arnis?


Dan has his book series, Tim's touring the globe.
3 of the others I've never heard of, and another seems more a regional player.  No disrespect meant.

There are names that could/should be on that list that aren't that I have heard of. (Kelly & Dieter for example)

The folks who split off, went in different directions, etc, while most likely solid martial artists, can't be counted as they do their thing, not Remys.

There are numerous individuals who are excellent players, who's names aren't well known. Maybe part of the problem is that with all the factions in motion, people get less notice? Heck, for all the events I've been at, I can't name 3 top Arnis up and comers. 3 folks I've banged with on a regular basis, Arni, Rich parsons and Paul J.  

(Sorry, rambling. Bit preoccupied)


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## Guro Harold

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> another seems more a regional player.  No disrespect meant.



Interesting enough, all are regional players. .


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## Bob Hubbard

True. One can be an excellent player either way. But I think to be a leader, one has to get outside the regions.


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## Tgace

To be a leader one has to have a vision...a goal to lead to.


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## Guro Harold

Its one thing to have a national presence and another have national and international influence.

Most of the MA organizations have only regional influence and they pale in comparison to the TKD juggernaut associations.

On the MA side, its hard to argue with an organization that has the number of black belts like DAV even though its in Germany. And I'm sure any US host would love to have turnouts like they have had over there for some of the european martial arts festivals.


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## Dan Anderson

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Who do the men mentioned above consider to be the students they now have that will impact the art the most


One must take into context the time when the article was written.  A number of us were a bit more visible then.  The "leaders" of the art are basically all of us now, whether mentioned in the article or not.  Since we are the next generation, I think I can safely say for all of us that we are continuing Modern Arnis into the next millenium in our own ways.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador

Things seem more focused on organizations these days than individuals--the two IMAFs, WMAA, MARPPIO, etc.


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## chris arena

I have to agree with Mr Rich Acosta. The family head of Modern Arnis is in the Philipines and within the Presas Family. Although there are many highly skilled Senior Masters, Masters, Datu's and MOTTs there is no inherited or designated grandmaster in my opinion. Anyone outside of the family thinking so in my opinion is way out of line.

If this art is to grow, then we should be able to have our seperate organizations within the systems like we have now. I really enjoy all of them. Datu Worden, Dan Anderson. Dieter and the like all have valuable information for all of us, as well as those I have not mentioned.

But what about the family? Why do many of these groups ignore Dr. Remy Presas Jr. He has given up his previous career to present his father's art. Does not claim to be a grandmaster, but is not invited to many of the Modern Arnis seminars?? I just don't understand! He has been training hard with the Filipine Senior Masters, lives in the US, but is not bieng invited to many of the Modern Arnis Groups! In my opinion, this is a matter of respect for the art. Plain and simple. Any grandmaster in my opinion should be the decision of the Presas family only. As to who and when this may is entirely up to thier discression.

Chris Arena
(enthusiastic intermediate)


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## kruzada

Thank you Chris for your reply, but I do not want to misrepresent IMAFP's, or the Presas family's intentions.

While I do agree that there should be more effort to support Dr. Remy Presas, and other members of the Presas family, it is unfortunately highly unlikely that all of the MA organizations will come to recognize a single individual as the sole heir to Modern Arnis. 

No matter what our individual opinions on this subject may be, we will have to just wait and see what role the Presas family members will play in Modern Arnis, internationally, in the years to come.

IMAFP's mission, to my knowledge, is to offer their resources and support to the various MA organizations throughout the world in the simple spirit of friendship and comraderie. To help promote unity in the international Modern Arnis community.


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## Cruentus

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> There are numerous individuals who are excellent players, who's names aren't well known. Maybe part of the problem is that with all the factions in motion, people get less notice? Heck, for all the events I've been at, I can't name 3 top Arnis up and comers. 3 folks I've banged with on a regular basis, Arni, Rich parsons and Paul J.
> 
> (Sorry, rambling. Bit preoccupied)


 
Just to ramble a bit my self...

Some have decided not to BE well known.

I decided, probably a short time ago relatively speaking, that I don't want to be the product. I don't want to be the iconic individual that followers follow, and followers of other clans scrutinize. I want my training company to be known and my programs to be known for the value they have on there own. I decided that I am not for sale.

So, if I am not well known, I am more then OK with that, because I don't want to be the product anyhow.

I also decided that the best thing I could do for my late teacher, and for the art, was to walk away from all the B.S. and the politics that Professor didn't care for anyways. I support others who train and lead Modern Arnis how ever I can; yet, I walk my own path. I am continiously developing my own programs, and I give credit where it is due to Modern Arnis and Professor. I find that I am able to positively influence more people this way, and my programs have remained on the cutting edge since I made that decision.

My goal isn't to be the next generation of anything... and I think that Professor would be proud of my decision....

Paul


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## DrBarber

kruzada said:
			
		

> Thank you Chris for your reply, but I do not want to misrepresent IMAFP's, or the Presas family's intentions.
> 
> While I do agree that there should be more effort to support Dr. Remy Presas, and other members of the Presas family, it is unfortunately highly unlikely that all of the MA organizations will come to recognize a single individual as the sole heir to Modern Arnis.
> 
> No matter what our individual opinions on this subject may be, we will have to just wait and see what role the Presas family members will play in Modern Arnis, internationally, in the years to come.
> 
> IMAFP's mission, to my knowledge, is to offer their resources and support to the various MA organizations throughout the world in the simple spirit of friendship and comraderie. To help promote unity in the international Modern Arnis community.


 
Hello Kruzada,

I can lend support to your statements within the last paragraph of your post.  It has been my experience that the IMAFP members have been very open and supportive of other groups working in the Modern Arnis style.  The Tipunan program in Anaheim this past August was a good example of the intentions of the IMAFP to work in a cooperative venture with everyone.  The upcoming event in Boston - 2006, will be another opportunity for people to come together in the spirit of cooperation and reflection.  

The difficulty is that some people in other Modern Arnis groups have chosen to stand apart from the IMAFP and/or make critical negative comments about who was absent from the Tipunan.  The nay-sayer(s) never mentioned the fact that those absent people made a conscious and deliberate decision to pass on attending the 2005 gathering.    

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Dan has his book series, Tim's touring the globe.
> 3 of the others I've never heard of, and another seems more a regional player. No disrespect meant.
> 
> There are names that could/should be on that list that aren't that I have heard of. (Kelly & Dieter for example)
> 
> The folks who split off, went in different directions, etc, while most likely solid martial artists, can't be counted as they do their thing, not Remys.
> 
> There are numerous individuals who are excellent players, who's names aren't well known. Maybe part of the problem is that with all the factions in motion, people get less notice? Heck, for all the events I've been at, I can't name 3 top Arnis up and comers. 3 folks I've banged with on a regular basis, Arni, Rich parsons and Paul J.
> 
> (Sorry, rambling. Bit preoccupied)


 
Bob, 

You've got quite a double standard going in your reponse.  Whose 'thing' was Remy doing?  Are you telling us that Modern Arnis can only be done as Remy did it?

With regard to some of the folks who split off, a good number of them are in fact solid and productive martial artists.  Simply because you do not know them, have not trained with them or heard of them, does not in any way invalidate their contributions to Moden Arnis.  Given that you have a very short and limit history within the art, perhaps you would do do well to broaden your perspectives before making such glittering generalities within your posts.

I'm not sure where you were going with you comment about Rich, Paul and Arni, so some clarification would be appricated.  I appriciate your contributions to Modern Arnis via this forum, however, there is a still a great deal that you could and should learn about Modern Arnis and then demonstrate through some new video clips.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Who do the men mentioned above consider to be the students they now have that will impact the art the most


 
So far I am the only one who has given you a response to your very insightful question, shadowchaser.  I must confess to being a bit mystified as to why this querry has been neglected.  Modern Arnis, as with any other generational endevour can only survive if there is a next generation of teachers.  The current group of teachers is not going to last forever.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D


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## Guro Harold

Mod Warning:

Any post that does not productively add to this topic with substance will be tossed.

-Palusut
MT Senior Moderator


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## DrBarber

arnisador said:
			
		

> Things seem more focused on organizations these days than individuals--the two IMAFs, WMAA, MARPPIO, etc.


 
HI Jeff,

There is a logical and understandable reason behind that development.  There isn't anyone with the late GMs personality and force of presence 
who can carry the art on their back as he did.  When he was alive the IMAF was wherever he happened to be at a given moment in time.  When
any/every charismatic leader has disappeared from the scene, then the inevitable organizational breakup occurs.  The fallout organizations with their individual leaders try to take root.  Some will survive and prosper, some will not.

The most important thing that should follow from all of this shuffling and re-shuffling is the emergance of a couple of solid teaching curriculm that allows the art to be taught, renewed and adapted to meet the new contingancies.  If the patty-cake approach to Modern Arnis becomes the in-vogue thing and organizational loyalty dominates over good, solid and effective training, essentually the at will shrink and become a novelty.  The organizations that will prosper are going to be those dedicated to hard practical applications of the principles and concepts that Professor dveloped over his long teaching career in both the Philippines and the Western World.

There are already people outside of the art who are critical of some of the things that they have seen in the video clips on this and some other forums.  The American Modern Arnis Associates, the Dog Brothers and Sayoc Kali organizations are direct and viable competition to Modern Arnis because they are working to "make it and keep it real".

A good number of people from this forum have gone over to the American Modern Arnis site and downloaded volumes of video clips, but no one has acknowledged the material or posted a review.  The counts at the AMAA site don't lie.  The problem is obvious and we needn't dwell on it here - wrong thread.  

If people are not willing to work together, share information and give credit, Modern Arnis will splinter still further and become a series of isolated organizational groups with little or nothing in common beyond the name used.  It has been lamented on several occassions on this forum that the participation from the other Modern Arnis groups is limited to non-existent... why would that be the case if Professor were really so important to everyone?

There is a great deal more that I could post, but until some questions, both mine and those of others, already out there are answered there is no need to post any more than I already have on this thread.

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Bob Hubbard

DrBarber said:
			
		

> Bob,
> 
> You've got quite a double standard going in your reponse. Whose 'thing' was Remy doing? Are you telling us that Modern Arnis can only be done as Remy did it?



Nope.  Remy was doing his own thing. Doing your own is fine, however, "Modern Arnis" is in most usage attributed to Remy. Doing your own is fine, and it may in fact be based off of Remys art, but, once you move more than a little bit beyond that, it starts to become more yours than his.  At some point, it stops being "Remy Presas Modern Arnis".



> With regard to some of the folks who split off, a good number of them are in fact solid and productive martial artists.



Think I said that somewhere, if not, let me agree here.



> Simply because you do not know them, have not trained with them or heard of them, does not in any way invalidate their contributions to Moden Arnis. Given that you have a very short and limit history within the art, perhaps you would do do well to broaden your perspectives before making such glittering generalities within your posts.



I don't need to know them, nor train with them, but they should show up somewhere. There may be excellent players in the PI, or heck, in a swamp in Georgia, but what good is being the best of the best, if no one outside a 20 mile radius knows you exist?  Being the best is one thing, but being a leader is something else.  Leaders lead, and when talking about an art, that requires some significant level of visibility and general awareness.

As to broadening my perspectives, I've been doing that, and will continue to do so. It's part of why I run so many different forums, and am active on so many others as well (though more often as a lurker lately)



> I'm not sure where you were going with you comment about Rich, Paul and Arni, so some clarification would be appricated. I appriciate your contributions to Modern Arnis via this forum, however, there is a still a great deal that you could and should learn about Modern Arnis and then demonstrate through some new video clips.
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D.



New clips are coming, the rust removal is taking time. LOL!
As to the comments, sorry, I cut myself off. Comment should have continued "..maybe? as I've had the benefit of banging with them and watching them take time to share at various events and camps."

Sorry, I've been rather distracted this week.



Sidebar - The AMAA videos are linked to on the MT video library. There are several excellent clips there.


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## RickRed

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Nope. Remy was doing his own thing. Doing your own is fine, however, "Modern Arnis" is in most usage attributed to Remy. Doing your own is fine, and it may in fact be based off of Remys art, but, once you move more than a little bit beyond that, it starts to become more yours than his. At some point, it stops being "Remy Presas Modern Arnis".
> 
> 
> Leaders lead, and when talking about an art, that requires some significant level of visibility and general awareness.
> 
> .


 
How much is 'too much' if a person is changing Modern Arnis?  What fundamentals should be preserved so that the "Modern Arnis" label is still real?

Leaders lead, true.  What makes a leader different from someone that is a top artists?  What qualities make a leader a leader?


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## Dan Anderson

RickRed said:
			
		

> *1.*How much is 'too much' if a person is changing Modern Arnis? What fundamentals should be preserved so that the "Modern Arnis" label is still real?
> 
> *2.*Leaders lead, true. What makes a leader different from someone that is a top artists? What qualities make a leader a leader?


Excellent questions!
1.  I would think that the base art would be Modern Arnis and recognizable when seen in motion.
2.  I'll let others answer that question.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Bob Hubbard

A leader does just that, leads. In my opinion, from the front.
Leaders must be seen, must be heard.  

As I said, there may be a guy on a beach in Cebu, or a swamp in Georgia who could whip us all, enmasse, without breaking a sweat, while reading a comic book...but if he never steps out of the unknown, he will never be a leader in the arts.

I think leadership and mastery are 2 seperate items.

As to how much?  Good question.
What is traditional in FMA in founding your own art?


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## Dan Anderson

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> What is traditional in FMA in founding your own art?


 
Traditional in FMA is a bit of a misnomer considering the progressive history of the different arts.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> As I said, there may be a guy on a beach in Cebu, or a swamp in Georgia who could whip us all, enmasse, without breaking a sweat, while reading a comic book...but if he never steps out of the unknown, he will never be a leader in the arts.
> 
> I think leadership and mastery are 2 seperate items.



A good and important point. Skill is important, but leadership affects many people, not just oneself.


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## DrBarber

Palusut said:
			
		

> Mod Warning:
> 
> Any post that does not productively add to this topic with substance will be tossed.
> 
> -Palusut
> MT Senior Moderator


 
Hello Harold,

Would be so kind as to explain what you are referring to in this post.  I don't want to run afoul of the admin group and forum rules, but I honestly can not determine what you are referencing.  Thanks in advance.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Guro Harold

DrBarber said:
			
		

> Hello Harold,
> 
> Would be so kind as to explain what you are referring to in this post. I don't want to run afoul of the admin group and forum rules, but I honestly can not determine what you are referencing. Thanks in advance.
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


 
Hi Jerome,

The post in question was removed.

Best regards,

Harold


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## DrBarber

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Nope. Remy was doing his own thing. Doing your own is fine, however, "Modern Arnis" is in most usage attributed to Remy. Doing your own is fine, and it may in fact be based off of Remys art, but, once you move more than a little bit beyond that, it starts to become more yours than his. At some point, it stops being "Remy Presas Modern Arnis".


 
Hello Bob, 

You still have a glaring double standard with regard to Modern Arnis.  Please explain where and when within the art one has moved "...more than a little beyond that, it starts to become more yours than his."  I am curious as to exactly where is that line, that spot, that moment within that art the seperation begins and it becomes mine/someone elses art?  

If I am going to do my own thing, why would I or anyone else bother calling it "Modern Arnis"?  If I am reading your comment correctly,
there is only 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis' and if one deviates from that 'standard' then it is no longer 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis'!  But who among us is in fact an exact duplicate clone of Remy Presas?  Who among us can think, move and innovate exactly as he did?   You standard is impossible and unrealistic. 

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber

RickRed said:
			
		

> How much is 'too much' if a person is changing Modern Arnis? What fundamentals should be preserved so that the "Modern Arnis" label is still real?
> 
> Leaders lead, true. What makes a leader different from someone that is a top artists? What qualities make a leader a leader?


 
Hey There, Rick,

Thus far no one has established what the core items are that make up Modern Arnis.  These core items would be the things that everyone who claims to be doing the art must have mastered and uses/teaches.  Included in my estimation would be the principles or foundation of the overall system itself, the techniques and the anyos.  Once these items are identified, then it would be possible toi determine if and how far someone has moved away from the center point.

Leadership is an entirely different matter.  Leadership involves qualitive functions not quanatative values/sums.  Leadership styles are expressive, instrumental and modular in nature.  In most cases a leader does not possess all three styles and characteristics in equal proportions.  Some people who call themselves leaders do not have any of the characteristics in any shape, form or manner.  They and many of their followers are confusing organizational titles with leadership qualities.  Being the founder, grand master, president, chief instructor, datu or mott is not the same thing as being a true leaders of people.  Titles are paper, leadership is behavior.  The two things are not interchangable, regardless of what one might wish to believe.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Bob Hubbard

DrBarber said:
			
		

> Hello Bob,
> 
> You still have a glaring double standard with regard to Modern Arnis. Please explain where and when within the art one has moved "...more than a little beyond that, it starts to become more yours than his." I am curious as to exactly where is that line, that spot, that moment within that art the seperation begins and it becomes mine/someone elses art?



Good question.
I'm not in posession of the knowledge I would need to decide that X is "preserving" while Y is "derived".  Maybe the folks who were around Remy the last few years of his life, who were traveling with him, and had relationships with him would be able to identify what was the last revision of Remy's art?



> If I am going to do my own thing, why would I or anyone else bother calling it "Modern Arnis"? If I am reading your comment correctly,
> there is only 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis' and if one deviates from that 'standard' then it is no longer 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis'! But who among us is in fact an exact duplicate clone of Remy Presas? Who among us can think, move and innovate exactly as he did? You standard is impossible and unrealistic.
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D.



Another good question.
"why would I or anyone else bother calling it "Modern Arnis"?"
Marketing. 

"If I am reading your comment correctly,
 there is only 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis' and if one deviates from that 'standard' then it is no longer 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis'!"
Very True. Each individual adds their own nuances to the art.  Some seem to seek to remain as close to the last version they saw as possible, while others continue to train "forgotten" parts of the history, while others explore the roots and paths that Remy came from for deeper understanding.
The problem with these approaches is that the art doesn't seem to have remains "stable", as Remy reportedly kept tweaking as he went. So keeping a snapshot doesn't continue it's evolution, there must have been reasons why he dropped what he dropped, and as you explore, you eventually reach a point that he most likely wouldn't have, and so end up with a "cousin" to the original art.

"But who among us is in fact an exact duplicate clone of Remy Presas? Who among us can think, move and innovate exactly as he did? You standard is impossible and unrealistic."
No one. Remy was Remy. His experiences, and thought processes are now sadly lost to us.

We have 2 different IMAF's, both continuing their own visions of the art. We have Tim Hartman's WMAA curiculum, Dan Andersons MA80, American Arnis, American Modern Arnis, your program and easily a dozen others. All are wonderful tributes, all are wonderful systems. Yet, none are 100% pure "Remy Arnis", because all have in some way, shape or form, moved away from where Remy would have taken the art, had he continued to be with us.

You can not preserve it, because "it", as a whole, as a system, was, to my knowledge, never formally "writen out and documented". You can only seek to preserve what -you- experienced, or follow the path you think is best. 

Define what "real" Modern Arnis is, define what constitutes "Remy Presas Modern Arnis", and maybe, we can then define just how much change must take place before it stops being "Remy" and starts being "you".


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## DrBarber

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Good question.
> 
> I'm not in posession of the knowledge I would need to decide that X is "preserving" while Y is "derived". Maybe the folks who were around Remy the last few years of his life, who were traveling with him, and had relationships with him would be able to identify what was the last revision of Remy's art?
> 
> Another good question.
> "why would I or anyone else bother calling it "Modern Arnis"?"
> Marketing.
> 
> "If I am reading your comment correctly,
> there is only 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis' and if one deviates from that 'standard' then it is no longer 'Remy Presas' Modern Arnis'!"
> Very True. Each individual adds their own nuances to the art. Some seem to seek to remain as close to the last version they saw as possible, while others continue to train "forgotten" parts of the history, while others explore the roots and paths that Remy came from for deeper understanding.
> The problem with these approaches is that the art doesn't seem to have remains "stable", as Remy reportedly kept tweaking as he went. So keeping a snapshot doesn't continue it's evolution, there must have been reasons why he dropped what he dropped, and as you explore, you eventually reach a point that he most likely wouldn't have, and so end up with a "cousin" to the original art.
> 
> "But who among us is in fact an exact duplicate clone of Remy Presas? Who among us can think, move and innovate exactly as he did? You standard is impossible and unrealistic."
> No one. Remy was Remy. His experiences, and thought processes are now sadly lost to us.
> 
> We have 2 different IMAF's, both continuing their own visions of the art. We have Tim Hartman's WMAA curiculum, Dan Andersons MA80, American Arnis, American Modern Arnis, your program and easily a dozen others. All are wonderful tributes, all are wonderful systems. Yet, none are 100% pure "Remy Arnis", because all have in some way, shape or form, moved away from where Remy would have taken the art, had he continued to be with us.
> 
> You can not preserve it, because "it", as a whole, as a system, was, to my knowledge, never formally "writen out and documented". You can only seek to preserve what -you- experienced, or follow the path you think is best.
> 
> Define what "real" Modern Arnis is, define what constitutes "Remy Presas Modern Arnis", and maybe, we can then define just how much change must take place before it stops being "Remy" and starts being "you".


 
Good Morning Bob,

Overall, I would have to say "A-men" to your post.  Brother Bob, we are in the very same church and merely sitting in a different pew.  Firstly please allow me to note that you are correct, you do not possess the knowledge to determine where preservation ends and deviation begins with regard to the concept of "Remy Presas Modern Arnis", however, you are not alone in that regard.  Even very experienced Modern Arnis people are at a lose to make that distinction, because of the evolutionary nature of the late GM within his own creation.  Mere mimicry is not sufficent.  Copying motions is not the same as understanding the principles and reasoning behind the movements.  Nor does mimicry allow one to determine where and when those same motions could be applied elsewhere.

The key to innovation and creative usage of Modern Arnis is to understand and utilize the core foundational principles of Modern Arnis as first taught by the late GM.  Then one has to adapt them to fit their own movement style, skill based knowledge and personality.  That was the "secret" behind the late GMs oft-repeated challenge to his students, "Make it for yourself!"  In short, if someone can not make it for himself, then he can not do Modern Arnis effectively.  He is merely mimicing motions.  It really does not matter whether one is an early, middle or late era student of the late GM, if they are mimicing motions and following drill patterns via rote repetition, they are not going to be able to effectively use Modern Arnis as a self-defense system when the rubber has to meet the road.

"Marketing"?  Surely you jest!?  I am doing something that includes Modern Arnis as a core system, but I have never been exclusively a Modern Arnis guy.   Even as a white belt under Sifu Don Zanghi, I was being cross- trained in Tracy Kenpo and Modern Arnis.  Professor endorsed Sifu Zanghi's program and he extended that endorsement to me when I opened my program at Erie Community College in 1987.  I have added Pancipanci Eskrima, Oliverez Pangasinan Escrima, Sayas-Lastra Arnis, Kalasag Kun Tao and Liu Seong Ch'uan Fa concepts to my program format since then.  I also have Professor's written endorsement for the Kenpo-Arnis-Pancipanci segments in 1989.  Why would I need to "market" Modern Arnis?

When I resigned from the IMAF in 1994, I stopped training with Professor because I dislike and refused to accept the BS that was swirling around the art then, why would I suddenly jump back into the fray and present myself as a "Modern Arnis instructor and organization leader" when I had already worked independently of the IMAF for 7 years prior to his demise?  I have marketed the Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis Associates program quite successfully and produced some outstanding black belt level students who stand out on their own.  I don't need to "market" Modern Arnis nor try to attach myself to the late GMs coat tails.  I am my own man.  I 've encourage my students to stand beside me, NOT behind me.

I am very pleased to see that that we are in complete agreement regarding the fact that there was only one person who be Remy Presas.
It really does not bother me that people have different approaches to Modern Arnis.  People should, in my opinion take what the want, need and what works for them from the art.  

But that still leaves us with several very significant questions.  What constitutes Modern Arnis?  What are it's component parts and how should they be oprdered for instructional purposes?  What are the underlying foundational principles upon which the entire system rests?  

The people asking and answering these questions whether as individuals or in concert with others are not merely looking at snapshorts, they are using 8mm, 16mm, VHS and DVDs.  Bob, I am speaking BOTH literally and figuratively.

In my opinion the above mentioned questions are unanswered in a larger public or collective sense.  Therefore there are the arguments, the endless, passionate, senseless, ceaseless arguements that are going to go on forever in some arenas.  These argumeents will go on forever because everyone is arguing about leadership of organizations ans succession.  Very few of those people are working toward answering the really important questions that I have presented above!   

There are a number of us who have very quietly discussed these questions among ourselves.  We have arrived at some consensus positions.  In the areas where we didn't agree, we smiled and said in effect, 'Ok, then you do it your way, because you really are in the same ballpark, just a different section, than I am.'  

The Symposium that I organized was the first public step toward gaining some consensus positions.  There were and still are some people who objected to that event being held.  They did not attend and even now are unlikely to accept an invitation to participate in a similar event if someone were to propose it.  There were people who attended the Symposium and then trashed the event because it did not meet their unstated criteria for success.

None the less, for a number of us who were at the event, we made the most of the opportunity to begin some discussions on a face to face basis.  Those discussions have continued, quietly, via e-mail and phone calls.  We have had opportunities to fill in knowledge gaps, gain understandings and share information.  Good things are still bubbling up from the Symposium.  It has opened new doors to other people and organizations besides those who actually attended.  Networking is a powerful tool when used positively.

With regard to your mentioning of organizations that stand as tributes to Modern Arnis and the late GM, I will not speak on behalf of any other than the AMAA and my own Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis group.  PG Tom Bolden, as mentioned by Dan Anderson in another post some time ago, does not replicate or promote Modern Arnis as taught by the late GM.  His is a stand-alone orgaization that acknowledges the contributions and principles of Modern Arnis, but he has set his standards higher and includes the contributions of his other instructors, Master Florentino Pancipanci, GM Marino Tiwanak and the CHA-3 Kenpo System.  Anyone who has seen the AMAA video clips can clearly see that the intensity, crispness and speed of the AMAA productions encompasses Modern Arnis concepts.  However it is not the Remy Presas version of Modern Arnis.

As for my IEKA group, please refer to my earlier paragraph as to my position on Modern Arnis replications.  I freely acknowledge the late GM 
as a friend, mentor and influence, but I am not now, nor have I ever been exclusively a Modern Arnis adherent.  To the extent that I followed Remy's example of incorperating different arts into my presentation, I am a student of his, but not entirely a student of Modern Arnis as my art form.  Please understand that I am not now, nor have I ever made any claims about being a Modern Arnis "leader".  I am a teacher, I know most the art as it was presented by the late GM, but I did not sign on to lead the system during his lifetime nor after his death.

Once again, Bob, you and I are in complete agreement.  Remy did not write out a complete or even a partial Modern Arnis curriculum.  I will add that he never established a HQ school in the USA, Canada or Europe, contrary to what he did in the Philippines.  That will make it very difficult, though not impossible to define and explain what Modern Arnis is as a martial art.  The fact that we have officially sanctioned video tapes of him from the mid-80's through 1999 that I am aware of and I am sure there are countless numbers of unofficial tapes floating around means that we could construct a very close approximation of what constitutes the "real" Modern Arnis system.   Of corse to bring all of that tape together along with the people who studied directly under Remy and create a consensus version of the art is going to be difficult.  Egos!  

Herein is my suggestion.  Don't worry about who is or is not doing the "real" Remy Presas Modern Arnis.  In reality, those who try to preserve and clone Remy Presas Modern Arnis will over time actully succeed in killing it through stagnation.  Those who follow the "make it for yourself' and "the art within your art" will actually preseve and expand the art, but will succed in losing the founder over the next coupleof generations, especially as those who actually knew Remy, the man, die off.

Those people who want to see the art grow and prosper will generally succeed in their efforts because of their sincere committment to their objective.  The people are are out to "market" Modern Arnis, ride on Professor's coat tails, build organizations and profit from something that they did not create through name association routines will ultimately pass from the scene without making a significant impact. 

As for myself, I will continue to teach at ECC for a few more years, train 3 - 5 more people to black belt levels, retire and let the whole thing get sorted out over time without further inputs me.  My former students and training partners will carry on and hopefully I will have been successful in my efforts to pass on my understandings about Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis and life lessons.  

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Bester

If you cannot preserve it intact, if the continuing changes move it farther and farther from the original root, why continue to call it "Modern Arnis"?
I ask the same question of many arts. Why continue to call EPAK EPAK, when the influence of the founder is 20 years past, and all the different opinions on the right way to do even the base techniques?  The only people who could claim to call it "Presas Arnis" are probably the family. The rest might contemplate name revisions.  Maybe take a small note from the JMA. Call it, "Modern Arnis, Bobo Style" (assuming that the clown here is Bobo. I prefered Bingo myself, and Krusy was good with a pie, but I digress.)


All clowning around aside here Doc, with this, even this smartass can agree:


> In reality, those who try to preserve and clone Remy Presas Modern Arnis will over time actully succeed in killing it through stagnation. Those who follow the "make it for yourself' and "the art within your art" will actually preseve and expand the art, but will succed in losing the founder over the next coupleof generations, especially as those who actually knew Remy, the man, die off.
> 
> Those people who want to see the art grow and prosper will generally succeed in their efforts because of their sincere committment to their objective. The people are are out to "market" Modern Arnis, ride on Professor's coat tails, build organizations and profit from something that they did not create through name association routines will ultimately pass from the scene without making a significant impact.



:cheers:


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## Guro Harold

Link for Tim Hartman: http://wmarnis.com/resume.html.


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## Guro Harold

Link for Dan Anderson: http://www.danandersonkarate.com/dananderson.html.


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## tshadowchaser

Simply asked 
how much of the original teaching must be in place for it to be called Mordern Arniis and how much devation can take place befor it is no longer MA. 
Or is this going to far from the original question and need to be a seperate thread
I'm still waiting for more names of those whom may be the 3rd generation leaders and movers


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## arnisador

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> I'm still waiting for more names of those whom may be the 3rd generation leaders and movers



There's a long list of those who wish to be...part of the problem is that several orgs. are still focused on the notion that there must be One person at the top. That ship has sailed, in my opinion.


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## RickRed

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Simply asked
> how much of the original teaching must be in place for it to be called Mordern Arniis and how much devation can take place befor it is no longer MA.
> Or is this going to far from the original question and need to be a seperate thread
> I'm still waiting for more names of those whom may be the 3rd generation leaders and movers


 
No one seems to be able to simply answer this question.

What concepts, techniques, and skills make up the fundamentals of MA that should present for someone to call it MA?
If you change the anyos, 12 strikes, siniwalis, applications....are you still doing MA?  If you change the words that RP used to refer to drills, movements and skills are you veering from MA?  How far is too far?  Until a simple list of 'fundamentals' is established, this discussion is going to lead to confusions.  We all know where confusion takes the threads here.  Confusion=Assumption=criticism=defensiveness/insecurity=flame=suspension/banning......

Healthy discussions should start with a common ground.

What makes the 'leaders' leaders?  Sure they lead, but where to, why and how do they lead.

Leader does not automatically mean ethical and positive.  Some people lead through fear, intimidation and lies.  Others lead through exploration, fairness and by example.  What makes leaders of MA 'leaders?' and not just 'top students' that started businesses and advertise?


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## Bob Hubbard

Good questions.  What were the techniques called by Remy?  What I've heard, is that there wasn't really a common description, just "you do this". I don't know if you can count changing the anyos, as they weren't FMA but karate kata spliced in. Are there "real" filipino forms in MA?


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## Mark Lynn

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Good questions. What were the techniques called by Remy? What I've heard, is that there wasn't really a common description, just "you do this". I don't know if you can count changing the anyos, as they weren't FMA but karate kata spliced in. Are there "real" filipino forms in MA?


 
Bob

I think you have to count the Anyos.  The Anyos were created in the Pillippines and predate Remy coming to the U.S.  GM Ernesto's Kombatan anyos look similar (karate like) but are different, however those too were developed over there, so why wouldn't these be "real" filipino forms?

What is your defintion of a "real filipino" form?

With respect
Mark


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## Bob Hubbard

I'd say "real" filipino forms would have a native filipino origin, not adapted from another art's forms. Isa appears to only have minimal differences from a shotakan (sp) form for example. 
(See http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3046&highlight=anyo+kata )

They may have been created in the PI, but, are they truely filipino? Or are they JMA with a slight tweak?  Thats my question here. Also, are there 'native' forms that were taught "way back when" that were dropped in favor of these? 

I believe that both Remy and Ernesto have karate backgrounds, so that may have influenced them when they were "putting the parts together". 

It's been my feeling, and I've heard others comment on it as well, that the MA forms don't have the same "feel" or "flow" as the other parts of the system.

Hope that makes sence...been crunching numbers for 2 days. LOL!


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## Mark Lynn

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I'd say "real" filipino forms would have a native filipino origin, not adapted from another art's forms. Isa appears to only have minimal differences from a shotakan (sp) form for example.
> (See http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3046&highlight=anyo+kata )
> 
> 1) They may have been created in the PI, but, are they truely filipino? Or are they JMA with a slight tweak? Thats my question here. Also, are there 'native' forms that were taught "way back when" that were dropped in favor of these?
> 
> 2) I believe that both Remy and Ernesto have karate backgrounds, so that may have influenced them when they were "putting the parts together".
> 
> 3) It's been my feeling, and I've heard others comment on it as well, that the MA forms don't have the same "feel" or "flow" as the other parts of the system.
> 
> Hope that makes sence...been crunching numbers for 2 days. LOL!


 
Bob
1) Who knows, why would you need forms?  I mean from the "native" point of view.  I've seen Dan Inosanto talk about "filipino"  dances and how they incorperate moves that can actually be disarms strikes etc. etc.  I've seen Kelly Worden demonstrate the Anyo's in this fashion and it made sense to me.

Forms I think were designed to teach a large group of people techniques and have a way for them to remember techniques.  Later on they could be used to teach different techniques, concepts, principles etc. etc. but that takes a longer period of time.  So if the brothers had a karate background they might have adopted that format from which to structure their systems to teach a larger group of people.  Also because the Japanese karte systems had katas they might have felt they needed the anyos to compete commercially.  Point is I don't know, but I don't think they should be discarded because they don't have the same feel as other parts of the art.

2)  I agree

3) But I think they could have a more fulid/flow type feel, again I only wittnessed Datu Worden perform a couple fo the Anyos in a more fulid motion, and then he deomnstrated the application of the Anyos in this manner.  I was impressed. 

Sorry Bob but I missed your first point.
I'd say too "real" have a native filipino orgin, however I believe they have a real filipino orgin, in that they were created by filipinos, in the Phillippines.  While they might have been adapted from a Japanese karate system (or influenced) they still were created by the brothers.  Take espada y daga it was adapted from the Spanish (while we may argue this), the point is that EYD in MA doesn't look like any Spanish fencing system now.  It was adapted and brought in, same thing with the anyos.

Remy used the anyos as a base from which to teach from, but unlike the karate systems it was a more make it your own type of thing instead of the "be like me".  I've had gripes about this in the past in that at the camps and such I saw a guy do Anyo Isa in a Preying Mantis format and Remy liked it. MY gripe was that I thought it should be standardized but who knows maybe making it your own thing leads to a broader understanding like Datu Worden interpertation of the forms.

Mark


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## Bob Hubbard

Exactly.  I'm not saying discard them, I'm saying if you change them, tweak them, do them with a different flair, it's not necessarily a bad thing.  I prefer to do them with a smoother flow, less "karate snap" feel to them, as it just feels more 'natural' to me. I've heard thats how Datu Worden does them, but haven't yet managed to see him in action.


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## Rich Parsons

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> Bob
> 
> I think you have to count the Anyos. The Anyos were created in the Pillippines and predate Remy coming to the U.S. GM Ernesto's Kombatan anyos look similar (karate like) but are different, however those too were developed over there, so why wouldn't these be "real" filipino forms?
> 
> What is your defintion of a "real filipino" form?
> 
> With respect
> Mark



Mark,

I think the Stick forms or Anyo Baston should be considered. There is documentation in the Books published in the PI for those forms and the reprint of the Pink Book here in the states. 

There is no documentation of the empty hand forms before coming to the States. If there is I would truly like to see it. Those I know who trained in the 70's, the empty hand forms were rolled out after the stick forms were already part of the curriculum. 

The empty hand forms can be considered as well, and the JMA influence is there, although you can execute them with a FMA feeling, some would not consider them a part of the training. In our Club in Flint, we recognize that GM Remy Presas rolled out 6,7 & 8 much later then even the mid 80's where some people still had not seen Form 5. Although the Empty Hand forms 1 through 5 had been around since the late 70's (79) to the early 80's. 

I think they are part of the curriculum, but the weight people assign them will very.

:asian:


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## DrBarber

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Simply asked
> how much of the original teaching must be in place for it to be called Mordern Arniis and how much devation can take place befor it is no longer MA.
> Or is this going to far from the original question and need to be a seperate thread
> I'm still waiting for more names of those whom may be the 3rd generation leaders and movers


 
Hello tshadowchaser,

This is another question that you have asked that will go unanswered by most people on this and everyother board.  In part the answer can not be offered because there has been no agreement on what are the critical core concepts and foundations upon which Modern Arnis was built and taught by the late Founder/GM.  Until the core concepts are identified we do not have a starting place for the discussion of when and how far someone has deviated from the "Ideal format of Remy Presas Modern Arnis".   That in turn means that all of the discussions about who is working closest to and furthest from the ideal is meaningless.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber

Bester said:
			
		

> If you cannot preserve it intact, if the continuing changes move it farther and farther from the original root, why continue to call it "Modern Arnis"?
> I ask the same question of many arts. Why continue to call EPAK EPAK, when the influence of the founder is 20 years past, and all the different opinions on the right way to do even the base techniques? The only people who could claim to call it "Presas Arnis" are probably the family. The rest might contemplate name revisions. Maybe take a small note from the JMA. Call it, "Modern Arnis, Bobo Style" (assuming that the clown here is Bobo. I prefered Bingo myself, and Krusy was good with a pie, but I digress.)
> 
> 
> All clowning around aside here Doc, with this, even this smartass can agree:
> 
> Quote:
> In reality, those who try to preserve and clone Remy Presas Modern Arnis will over time actully succeed in killing it through stagnation. Those who follow the "make it for yourself' and "the art within your art" will actually preseve and expand the art, but will succed in losing the founder over the next coupleof generations, especially as those who actually knew Remy, the man, die off.
> 
> Those people who want to see the art grow and prosper will generally succeed in their efforts because of their sincere committment to their objective. The people are are out to "market" Modern Arnis, ride on Professor's coat tails, build organizations and profit from something that they did not create through name association routines will ultimately pass from the scene without making a significant impact.
> 
> 
> :cheers:


 
Thank you, Bester.  Your comment and honesty are most appriciated.
Maybe we should meet and discuss this and other things over coffee.
I'll buy the danish.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber

RickRed said:
			
		

> No one seems to be able to simply answer this question.
> 
> What concepts, techniques, and skills make up the fundamentals of MA that should present for someone to call it MA?
> If you change the anyos, 12 strikes, siniwalis, applications....are you still doing MA? If you change the words that RP used to refer to drills, movements and skills are you veering from MA? How far is too far? Until a simple list of 'fundamentals' is established, this discussion is going to lead to confusions. We all know where confusion takes the threads here. Confusion=Assumption=criticism=defensiveness/insecurity=flame=suspension/banning......
> 
> Healthy discussions should start with a common ground.
> 
> What makes the 'leaders' leaders? Sure they lead, but where to, why and how do they lead.
> 
> Leader does not automatically mean ethical and positive. Some people lead through fear, intimidation and lies. Others lead through exploration, fairness and by example. What makes leaders of MA 'leaders?' and not just 'top students' that started businesses and advertise?


 
Hello RickRed,

Nice comments and well put, perhaps you and I should discuss these things over coffee as well.  Once again, I will buy the danish.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Simply asked
> how much of the original teaching must be in place for it to be called Mordern Arniis and how much devation can take place befor it is no longer MA.
> Or is this going to far from the original question and need to be a seperate thread
> I'm still waiting for more names of those whom may be the 3rd generation leaders and movers


 
Hello TShadowchaser,

I'm planning to be in the Boston area next year for the Modern Arnis Tipunan.  When that date is finalized, perhaps we could meet and discuss some of these things over breakfast.  Let me know if that is a possibility. Thamks.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Guro Harold

Guro Harold said:


> In the article, "Modern Arnis: The Next Generation" (Black Belt Magazine, August 1998, by Paul O' Grady, M.S.), he wrote of the next generation being: Dan Anderson, Rick Lee Ward, Eric Alexander, Jaye Spiro, Tim Hartman, and Michael Donavan.
> 
> Who are the people listed above, what is their current contribution to Modern Arnis, and who do see as the up and coming leaders in Modern Arnis?


Ok, it's been 12 years since this article has been written and about 5 years since this thread was originally created, so now, in your opinion, who are the new up and coming leaders in Modern Arnis?


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