# Belt Testing advice



## DomoArigato (Aug 4, 2017)

Hi, I'm new to this forum but need to reach out to the community for advice. My spouse any myself as well as out 7 year old practice Karate in a traditional Japanese dojo. 
The 7 year old has been at the school for 2 years and only moved up one belt rank in that time. So from white, to yellow, and it took him 8 months, which is long for that stage. It's been a full year ( and 4 testing cycles) since that last test and going to class 2x per week consistently. All his peers passed him up, so he is now at the level of students who began training after him. He has not been invited to test but the other children in his group have. I am NOT one of those parents who thinks my child is perfect, as a practitioner myself  I see where he needs to be better, and these kids are at the same level, one even being slightly behind the group in technique but still invited to test. 
I broke etiquette and asked one of the directors (there are 5) "what's holding him back? I'm concerned because it's been a full year." This black belt didn't know and said he'd ask the board (who votes on who tests) and get back to me. I'm afraid I will be given a blanket answer of "he's just not ready!" but there seems to be a personal reason behind this since my son has been doing the test techniques every day for a year. 

Any way I'm looking for feedback, and opinions. My spouse and other parents and I are baffled why he's being intentionally excluded.


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## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2017)

If he's not good enough then he's not good enough simple as that. Just because he practices every day doesn't mean he's doing them right. At least he'll know he deserves the belt when he gets it. If your kid is learning then that's the main thing belts really aren't important it's the skills you learn. Just see what the instructor says but if he says he's not good enough then you can't do anything about it. Sounds like a good school to be honest not just giving it to them and holding them back if they're not ready


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## DomoArigato (Aug 4, 2017)

Yes, I completely agree with what you're saying about it being a good school. It's not a belt buying school. My concern is that he is meeting the standard--- but it is coming down to something other than that. I'm not one of those parents huffing and puffing my child is so great etc.... I hope it doesn't come off that way. 
No one but the sensei can tell me the true reason, but I am just interested in other's opinions, so thanks for the feedback.


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## jobo (Aug 4, 2017)

DomoArigato said:


> Yes, I completely agree with what you're saying about it being a good school. It's not a belt buying school. My concern is that he is meeting the standard--- but it is coming down to something other than that. I'm not one of those parents huffing and puffing my child is so great etc.... I hope it doesn't come off that way.
> No one but the sensei can tell me the true reason, but I am just interested in other's opinions, so thanks for the feedback.


well ask, if they say he is not ready, but you think he is, take him somewhere else, or stump up for some private lessons to get him up to speed


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## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2017)

DomoArigato said:


> Yes, I completely agree with what you're saying about it being a good school. It's not a belt buying school. My concern is that he is meeting the standard--- but it is coming down to something other than that. I'm not one of those parents huffing and puffing my child is so great etc.... I hope it doesn't come off that way.
> No one but the sensei can tell me the true reason, but I am just interested in other's opinions, so thanks for the feedback.


Well maybe in your eyes he is but to the people in charge he isn't. I mean there's a reason they're the instructor and you're not. This isn't intended to be rude but hey other kids passing him is it fair? Maybe or maybe not but it's life. It's also good character building getting him to deal with disappointment and overcoming it. Is there any reason for it to be personal? If not then don't take it personally


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## gerardbu07059 (Aug 4, 2017)

I do not think there is a need to rush. I would suggest you ask what the weak points are on your son's skills and work on that with him

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## Jaeimseu (Aug 4, 2017)

I'm amazed your child is still willing to stick it out. I can't see myself holding back a kid that long, especially at a beginner rank, except under extraordinarily circumstances, and I'm not even sure what those circumstances would be. 

I want my students to be "good," but I also want them to stick around (and that's not motivated by $). I can't impact a student if they quit. If you're kid still enjoys training despite being held back/passed up, you're doing a heck of a job as a parent, your instructor has an amazing connection with your child, or your kid is weird (in a good way).


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## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2017)

Personally I think you and your kid should be honoured that the instructor cares about your kid. I've been passed over for promotion before and yeah sure it's a bit frustrating but it shows me my instructor cared about me. If they didnt care about me they'd put me in a test and maybe give me the belt and take my money even if I don't deserve it. But by holding me back it shows they want me to actually deserve the belt and make me a better martial artist. That's how I've always seen it


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## Buka (Aug 4, 2017)

Welcome to MartialTalk, Domo. Hope you enjoy it here.

Have to say, it's refreshing to read about dojos that don't promote just for the sake of a buck or just to keep students coming. But I do understand your concerns about your son, and there isn't anyone who knows him like you and his mom. Hope it all works out, my friend.

He's but seven years old. Just a little kid. As long as he's enjoying training, keep him training. The belts usually work themselves out over the years.


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## jks9199 (Aug 4, 2017)

DomoArigato said:


> Yes, I completely agree with what you're saying about it being a good school. It's not a belt buying school. My concern is that he is meeting the standard--- but it is coming down to something other than that. I'm not one of those parents huffing and puffing my child is so great etc.... I hope it doesn't come off that way.
> No one but the sensei can tell me the true reason, but I am just interested in other's opinions, so thanks for the feedback.


Are these "peers" that you're comparing him to similar in age, or just equal ranks?  Even if the group is all the same age, there could be maturity or conduct issues that you may not be seeing.  Would being promoted change his class?  Maybe he's simply not quite ready to handle the expectations behaviorally in the next class -- and that may be nothing more than being a 7-year old!  That's about the earliest I personally will teach, because of attention spans and general behavior.  Of course there are exceptions -- but by and large, teaching a 7 year old takes a lot of different patience and teaching techniques than kids even a couple of years older...


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## DomoArigato (Aug 4, 2017)

Buka said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk, Domo. Hope you enjoy it here.
> 
> Have to say, it's refreshing to read about dojos that don't promote just for the sake of a buck or just to keep students coming. But I do understand your concerns about your son, and there isn't anyone who knows him like you and his mom. Hope it all works out, my friend.
> 
> He's but seven years old. Just a little kid. As long as he's enjoying training, keep him training. The belts usually work themselves out over the years.





jks9199 said:


> Are these "peers" that you're comparing him to similar in age, or just equal ranks?  Even if the group is all the same age, there could be maturity or conduct issues that you may not be seeing.  Would being promoted change his class?  Maybe he's simply not quite ready to handle the expectations behaviorally in the next class -- and that may be nothing more than being a 7-year old!  That's about the earliest I personally will teach, because of attention spans and general behavior.  Of course there are exceptions -- but by and large, teaching a 7 year old takes a lot of different patience and teaching techniques than kids even a couple of years older...



Hi, thank you so much. I am the mom, and yes hoping it all works out. It's affecting his will to train, and at 7 years old, we don't push him and hope he continues despite the "set back"! appreciate the welcome and support!!


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## DomoArigato (Aug 4, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Are these "peers" that you're comparing him to similar in age, or just equal ranks?  Even if the group is all the same age, there could be maturity or conduct issues that you may not be seeing.  Would being promoted change his class?  Maybe he's simply not quite ready to handle the expectations behaviorally in the next class -- and that may be nothing more than being a 7-year old!  That's about the earliest I personally will teach, because of attention spans and general behavior.  Of course there are exceptions -- but by and large, teaching a 7 year old takes a lot of different patience and teaching techniques than kids even a couple of years older...




Yes, the 3 kids in his group (belt rank) are all the same age, ability and relative maturity. It's not my style to speak unfavorably about children but as far as maturity, the other two, especially one boy have had more discipline for etiquette than mine, so I question if it's a manners issue. The classes are moderately formal, there is allowance for levity at certain times. The class won't change just rank, as it's already an intermediate class. I've been observing testing/expectations for the junior ranks for 2 years now and it's not adding up. 7 year olds definitely have shorter attention spans, I do look objectively at my child and am not seeing an ability/manners discrepancy here, especially in contrast to the other two. Appreciate your feedback!


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## marques (Aug 4, 2017)

DomoArigato said:


> Hi, I'm new to this forum but need to reach out to the community for advice. My spouse any myself as well as out 7 year old practice Karate in a traditional Japanese dojo.
> The 7 year old has been at the school for 2 years and only moved up one belt rank in that time. So from white, to yellow, and it took him 8 months, which is long for that stage. It's been a full year ( and 4 testing cycles) since that last test and going to class 2x per week consistently. All his peers passed him up, so he is now at the level of students who began training after him. He has not been invited to test but the other children in his group have. I am NOT one of those parents who thinks my child is perfect, as a practitioner myself  I see where he needs to be better, and these kids are at the same level, one even being slightly behind the group in technique but still invited to test.
> I broke etiquette and asked one of the directors (there are 5) "what's holding him back? I'm concerned because it's been a full year." This black belt didn't know and said he'd ask the board (who votes on who tests) and get back to me. I'm afraid I will be given a blanket answer of "he's just not ready!" but there seems to be a personal reason behind this since my son has been doing the test techniques every day for a year.
> 
> Any way I'm looking for feedback, and opinions. My spouse and other parents and I are baffled why he's being intentionally excluded.


Even if it is personal, don't make it personal yourself. 
If he keeps motivated, just keep going and the rank will advance, eventually. If not, say in 1 or 2 years, so there is something and perhaps you may look for training elsewhere. Until it is really absurd or demotivating, just keep going.


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## drop bear (Aug 4, 2017)

Yeah try to find out the issue. Then train him to death to fix it.

Having said that I am a fout stripe white belt from 6 years training.


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## JR 137 (Aug 4, 2017)

I'm going to perhaps go against the grain here...

I honestly feel like you deserve more of an answer than "he's not ready yet."  What (relatively) specifically does he need to work on?  What can you do to help him improve?  What is their assessment criteria?

I'm a school teacher.  I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but there's some crossover (or at least should be) - I'd never suggest holding a student back and simply say "he's not ready yet" and walk away.  Forget educational laws and regulations, I feel personally obligated to tell the parents what their kid's strengths and weaknesses are, and how they can help their kid improve whenever asked.

You're obviously confused and frustrated by this.  Completely understandable.  And even more understandable for your son to be.  My advice is make an appointment with the chief instructor/owner and ask him/her what's going on professionally and politely.  And in private.  You are a paying customer and you're entitled to a professional explanation.

None of that means you're entitled to the answer you want to hear, nor should you have the "I pay your salary" mentality.  It just means you deserve an honest answer.  You can either accept the answer and follow whatever is recommended, or you can leave and look for another place.  But you can't make the rules.

My dojo has the rule of don't ask to promote too.  But that doesn't mean I can't ask my teacher what I need to work on.  If I couldn't ask my teacher what he thinks I need to do to get better, I'd find another teacher.  If I regularly wasn't invited to test, I'd ask him privately what I need to do to move forward.  If he didn't want to answer that, I'd leave.

But remember, there's a way to ask.  Don't come off as a jerk and you deserve the CI's honest assessment.


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## DomoArigato (Aug 4, 2017)

Hi JR137. Thank so much for this thoughtful reply. Good advice and wisdom here. I'm hoping to get specifics and have all those questions answered, I feel we cannot accept the simple, "he's not ready" answer. I appreciate the approach you suggested, and may just do that. Thank you for the feedback!


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## jks9199 (Aug 4, 2017)

I never suggested they don't deserve an explanation; there could be many -- including something as simple as "well, gee, we forgot" or "we keep giving him the form, he doesn't take it home."

They absolutely deserve a reasonable explanation, and can then respond appropriately.  They just have to be ready for explanations that aren't flattering...


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## Tez3 (Aug 5, 2017)

DomoArigato said:


> So from white, to yellow, and it took him 8 months, which is long for that stage


Hi, welcome to MT. that may be a long time for your school but for many that's about normal or even quick. Seven years old is awfully young to be honest, many martial arts instructors won't take children that young or even take children at all. It may be that the other parents are pushing their children so they get promoted to shut them up!


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## DomoArigato (Aug 5, 2017)

Hi, thanks for the welcome. I hear what you're saying. The school accepts 5 year olds who are mature enough. But what's puzzling is, to test he needs to know his kata, 3 point sparring and a few more intermediate basics. He does and does them to the level of the other kids. Thanks for your opinion/perspective!


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## JR 137 (Aug 5, 2017)

DomoArigato said:


> Hi, thanks for the welcome. I hear what you're saying. The school accepts 5 year olds who are mature enough. But what's puzzling is, to test he needs to know his kata, 3 point sparring and a few more intermediate basics. He does and does them to the level of the other kids. Thanks for your opinion/perspective!


Not to sound the wrong way, but do you have any training in karate?  Do you know what they're looking for?

On the surface and to the untrained eye it could appear that he's doing what he's supposed to.  It could appear to be the same thing as everyone else is doing.  But to a trained eye it could be that he's not executing things properly.  Or that he's got the basics against no resistance down but isn't able to apply them.

I'm quite sure there's something they're seeing that you're not, otherwise there wouldn't be an issue.  Again, ask the CI in private at a mutually agreeable time.

Just to expand on my previous post...

Being a school teacher, I really hate it when a parent comes up to me at an awkward time and asks why their kid isn't doing what's expected.  I politely smile and tell them we can discuss whatever's on their mind in private.  I don't have anything to hide, but their kid's progress and how I'm handling their kid specifically is no one else's business.  I've never had anyone demand an immediate answer when I tell them it's best to discuss things privately.  I'm quite sure any reasonable teacher of anything would agree with that.

It doesn't have to be a formal meeting with "the grade books out" or anything like that.  But asking him why your son isn't testing in front of other parents, students, and/or when he's getting ready to start class isn't going to get you the answers you deserve.  And it puts the teacher in an odd spot.  Asking when there's a good time to privately discuss your son's progress is the way to go IMO.  If he doesn't give you the time of day, that's cause for concern.


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## Jenna (Aug 5, 2017)

DomoArigato said:


> Hi, I'm new to this forum but need to reach out to the community for advice. My spouse any myself as well as out 7 year old practice Karate in a traditional Japanese dojo.
> The 7 year old has been at the school for 2 years and only moved up one belt rank in that time. So from white, to yellow, and it took him 8 months, which is long for that stage. It's been a full year ( and 4 testing cycles) since that last test and going to class 2x per week consistently. All his peers passed him up, so he is now at the level of students who began training after him. He has not been invited to test but the other children in his group have. I am NOT one of those parents who thinks my child is perfect, as a practitioner myself  I see where he needs to be better, and these kids are at the same level, one even being slightly behind the group in technique but still invited to test.
> I broke etiquette and asked one of the directors (there are 5) "what's holding him back? I'm concerned because it's been a full year." This black belt didn't know and said he'd ask the board (who votes on who tests) and get back to me. I'm afraid I will be given a blanket answer of "he's just not ready!" but there seems to be a personal reason behind this since my son has been doing the test techniques every day for a year.
> 
> Any way I'm looking for feedback, and opinions. My spouse and other parents and I are baffled why he's being intentionally excluded.


I can imagine why you might be feeling in the dark about what is going on with that.. I do not think it uncommon unfortunately.. Good you have posted! Maybe there is advice herein for others in same place as you also  Can I ask please, what make you think there seem to be a personal reason maybe as opposed to oversight or miscommunication? Some thing you intuit or have pick up or? Sending all wishes to you for it work out in the nicest and fairest way  xo


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## Midnight-shadow (Aug 5, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Not to sound the wrong way, but do you have any training in karate?  Do you know what they're looking for?
> 
> On the surface and to the untrained eye it could appear that he's doing what he's supposed to.  It could appear to be the same thing as everyone else is doing.  But to a trained eye it could be that he's not executing things properly.  Or that he's got the basics against no resistance down but isn't able to apply them.
> 
> I'm quite sure there's something they're seeing that you're not, otherwise there wouldn't be an issue.  Again, ask the CI in private at a mutually agreeable time.



I get this kind of situation a lot in my work as a swimming teacher. There have been times where a parent has come up to me asking why their child hasn't moved up, and more often than not it comes down to technique. Their child might be able to swim a longer distance or swim faster than the other kids, but I won't move them up until they get the technique right. That said, if parents ask me about their child's technique then I will happily tell them, so hopefully they will do the same for the OP. If they don't then I would think something was up.

Also, you need to think about consistency of the technique. There is no point in being able to do the technique correctly once in 10 attempts, or being able to do the technique only when the instructor tells you exactly what to do. Teachers are looking for consistency which is why I require my students to perform a skill correctly 3 times in a row before I will pass them on it.


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## Midnight-shadow (Aug 5, 2017)

Jaeimseu said:


> I'm amazed your child is still willing to stick it out. I can't see myself holding back a kid that long, especially at a beginner rank, except under extraordinarily circumstances, and I'm not even sure what those circumstances would be.



I've held students back before due to maturity and behaviour issues, as a matter of safety. If a kid is constantly messing around in the shallow water there is no way in hell I am letting them go up into the next group in deeper water no matter how good their swimming is.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 5, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I've held students back before due to maturity and behaviour issues, as a matter of safety. If a kid is constantly messing around in the shallow water there is no way in hell I am letting them go up into the next group in deeper water no matter how good their swimming is.



I agree. I simply have never run into discipline issues that serious at the dojang or in my classroom (knock on wood).


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I'm going to perhaps go against the grain here...
> 
> I honestly feel like you deserve more of an answer than "he's not ready yet."  What (relatively) specifically does he need to work on?  What can you do to help him improve?  What is their assessment criteria?
> 
> ...


I agree with this. You (in proxy for your 7-year-old) should be given some guidance as to why he isn't being invited to test. I'm not at all a fan of the "etiquette" that discourages asking that question. I don't mind if a student asks about their next belt right after getting one, so long as they don't mind that they'll still have a year or two more to get there.

So, don't worry about "he's not ready" unless and until that's all you're told. If you get no more, you should go to the chief instructor and ask for some advice and clarification.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Aug 5, 2017)

Well for me a 7 year old should take his time because his just a kid you know and you dont wanna preasure the kid if his not ready then his not ready but eventually his gonna be ready all he needs is practice practice practice makes perfect and make sure you practice like 45 min to an hour with your technique basics or forms traditional karate like shotokan kyukushin is hard it takes hard work to practice it and its ok if he doesnt take the test with the other kids just take your time but make your you practice your tech atleast 3 times so you will know were you made a mistake and correct it. some are fast learner and some are slow and take their time like i do i shoulda been a 2nd degree brown by june but i wasnt ready so im taking my test in december that way i can sharpned by technique basic and forms so no need to hurry


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## CB Jones (Aug 5, 2017)

I agree that they should be able to provide specifics on what he needs to correct to be allowed to test.


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## jks9199 (Aug 5, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> It doesn't have to be a formal meeting with "the grade books out" or anything like that. But asking him why your son isn't testing in front of other parents, students, and/or when he's getting ready to start class isn't going to get you the answers you deserve. And it puts the teacher in an odd spot. Asking when there's a good time to privately discuss your son's progress is the way to go IMO. If he doesn't give you the time of day, that's cause for concern.


Very good point.  Don't ask in a way that puts him on the spot.  Use an email or phone call or set up an appointment.


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## JR 137 (Aug 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I agree with this. You (in proxy for your 7-year-old) should be given some guidance as to why he isn't being invited to test. I'm not at all a fan of the "etiquette" that discourages asking that question. I don't mind if a student asks about their next belt right after getting one, so long as they don't mind that they'll still have a year or two more to get there.
> 
> So, don't worry about "he's not ready" unless and until that's all you're told. If you get no more, you should go to the chief instructor and ask for some advice and clarification.


The etiquette at my school is don't ask to promote.  You'll be invited to promote when the CI feels you're ready.

I like it.  It discourages the race to promote mentality, keeps people from hounding the CI, etc.  But there's a downside to everything.  People may not feel comfortable asking why they're not invited to test when they've met the attendance requirements and they think they're skilled enough to promote.  It can be awkward asking why and trying not to come off as asking to promote.  And the CI may feel the student's pushing for an undeserved promotion.  It's a balancing act.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> The etiquette at my school is don't ask to promote.  You'll be invited to promote when the CI feels you're ready.
> 
> I like it.  It discourages the race to promote mentality, keeps people from hounding the CI, etc.  But there's a downside to everything.  People may not feel comfortable asking why they're not invited to test when they've met the attendance requirements and they think they're skilled enough to promote.  It can be awkward asking why and trying not to come off as asking to promote.  And the CI may feel the student's pushing for an undeserved promotion.  It's a balancing act.


I don't mind the not asking to promote, though it's not what I came up in - we had to ask. I've gone the other way - I test them when I'm ready to test them, more like what you're talking about. If they ask to test, that won't affect timing one way or the other. But I have known instructors who didn't like students asking why they weren't invited to test. I consider that a valid question from a conscientious student who wants to meet expectations, and simply doesn't know which ones they aren't yet meeting.


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## drop bear (Aug 5, 2017)

Fot us we only test in the BJJ. and nobody really cares as everyone knows who is better than who anyway.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Fot us we only test in the BJJ. and nobody really cares as everyone knows who is better than who anyway.


Looking back, I was a bit over-conscious of rank for most of my training (personal insecurity), but most of the people I trained with were more like you describe. They tested, but knew who was better, regardless of rank.


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## symme (Aug 5, 2017)

You definitely wanna keep encouraging him since he's demonstrating a lot of determination. Kids can be easily demotivated and seeing peers progress faster is always difficult. 

Your instructor however should absolutely be able to give you a good explanation as to what your son is lacking, and as you've said you're a practitioner yourself and can even to the best of your abilities help your son to improve.
That being said it is in the interest of the martial art school to keep their students so it is more likely that he truly isn't ready and you cannot see the flaws as clearly as the instructors. If it took him eight months to go to yellow belt then this time frame  for the next grading doesn't sound all that unreasonable either.


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## Tez3 (Aug 6, 2017)

Parents helping can be a double edged sword, I knew father who had done Shotokan when he was in university about, he was in his late thirties, he was trying to help his son with his training but was doing what he remembered from Shotokan, we were doing Wado Ryu, different stances, different ways of doing strikes and kicks, different way of doing kata. The problem was they were similar enough to the father that he didn't think it mattered but they weren't correct by our style so the poor kid constantly had his long stances corrected to the shorter ones we did etc. Frustrating for the child and us.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Parents helping can be a double edged sword, I knew father who had done Shotokan when he was in university about, he was in his late thirties, he was trying to help his son with his training but was doing what he remembered from Shotokan, we were doing Wado Ryu, different stances, different ways of doing strikes and kicks, different way of doing kata. The problem was they were similar enough to the father that he didn't think it mattered but they weren't correct by our style so the poor kid constantly had his long stances corrected to the shorter ones we did etc. Frustrating for the child and us.


This can be an issue even if they are from the same style. Often, with a lack of experience or too much time since their own training, they have imperfect or even incorrect understanding of structure and principle. And so they get focused on the wrong thing. I've seen returning students (who were previously of rank to be "student teachers") teach structure improperly to newer students, getting them into a rigid structure we don't use.


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## kuniggety (Aug 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Looking back, I was a bit over-conscious of rank for most of my training (personal insecurity), but most of the people I trained with were more like you describe. They tested, but knew who was better, regardless of rank.



I think what helps in BJJ is that, while a blue belt might be gunning for purple, they don't want to be the purple belt that's getting thrown around by all of the blue belts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> I think what helps in BJJ is that, while a blue belt might be gunning for purple, they don't want to be the purple belt that's getting thrown around by all of the blue belts.


That was never me. I was overly conscious of others' rank, because I chose to progress slowly. I would have been the blue belt who could hang with the purples on a regular basis, but didn't test (not at those same colors - but the concept applies).


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## kuniggety (Aug 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That was never me. I was overly conscious of others' rank, because I chose to progress slowly. I would have been the blue belt who could hang with the purples on a regular basis, but didn't test (not at those same colors - but the concept applies).



I'm a bit of the same way. I didn't even want to be promoted to blue/felt I was ready until I was actually hanging with the blue belts. Now I'm at a point that I think I'm a decent blue but still don't feel nearly on the same wavelength as a purple yet and have absolutely no desire to be promoted until I do.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> I'm a bit of the same way. I didn't even want to be promoted to blue/felt I was ready until I was actually hanging with the blue belts. Now I'm at a point that I think I'm a decent blue but still don't feel nearly on the same wavelength as a purple yet and have absolutely no desire to be promoted until I do.


I tended to go overboard with it. It sounds like I was being conscientious, but I was actually being insecure.


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## Headhunter (Aug 6, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Parents helping can be a double edged sword, I knew father who had done Shotokan when he was in university about, he was in his late thirties, he was trying to help his son with his training but was doing what he remembered from Shotokan, we were doing Wado Ryu, different stances, different ways of doing strikes and kicks, different way of doing kata. The problem was they were similar enough to the father that he didn't think it mattered but they weren't correct by our style so the poor kid constantly had his long stances corrected to the shorter ones we did etc. Frustrating for the child and us.


Personsally I don't parents should have anything to do with their child's training if they've got past experience unless that experience is with the same club the kids at otherwise it's just a waste of time. No ones wrong or right things are just different. I know when my kid started kenpo at a school where I'd never trained and I saw differences but I never said anything because it's simply not my place


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 7, 2017)

DomoArigato said:


> Hi, I'm new to this forum but need to reach out to the community for advice. My spouse any myself as well as out 7 year old practice Karate in a traditional Japanese dojo.
> The 7 year old has been at the school for 2 years and only moved up one belt rank in that time. So from white, to yellow, and it took him 8 months, which is long for that stage. It's been a full year ( and 4 testing cycles) since that last test and going to class 2x per week consistently. All his peers passed him up, so he is now at the level of students who began training after him. He has not been invited to test but the other children in his group have. I am NOT one of those parents who thinks my child is perfect, as a practitioner myself  I see where he needs to be better, and these kids are at the same level, one even being slightly behind the group in technique but still invited to test.
> I broke etiquette and asked one of the directors (there are 5) "what's holding him back? I'm concerned because it's been a full year." This black belt didn't know and said he'd ask the board (who votes on who tests) and get back to me. I'm afraid I will be given a blanket answer of "he's just not ready!" but there seems to be a personal reason behind this since my son has been doing the test techniques every day for a year.
> 
> Any way I'm looking for feedback, and opinions. My spouse and other parents and I are baffled why he's being intentionally excluded.



You mention testing cycles. So I take it your dojo schedules tests at regular occurring times, how often are tests scheduled? 

As for your son, he might be a late bloomer. He is only 7 so he still has much growing to do. Some children are naturally really good at young ages. Other children who don't bloom as early have to push themselves harder at younger ages but in time they can catch up to and even bypass their peers who were better at first.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 7, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> If he's not good enough then he's not good enough simple as that. Just because he practices every day doesn't mean he's doing them right. At least he'll know he deserves the belt when he gets it. If your kid is learning then that's the main thing belts really aren't important it's the skills you learn. Just see what the instructor says but if he says he's not good enough then you can't do anything about it. Sounds like a good school to be honest not just giving it to them and holding them back if they're not ready



Well no if the child isn't good enough there isn't really anything the OP can do about it other than encourage the child since for the child to get better, its really up to the child. I do agree with you that belts are less important than the skills. I would say the important thing is to develop the skills to earn the belt.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 7, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Personally I think you and your kid should be honoured that the instructor cares about your kid. I've been passed over for promotion before and yeah sure it's a bit frustrating but it shows me my instructor cared about me. If they didnt care about me they'd put me in a test and maybe give me the belt and take my money even if I don't deserve it. But by holding me back it shows they want me to actually deserve the belt and make me a better martial artist. That's how I've always seen it



I agree. They shouldn't pass you if you haven't met their standards. If they do than it means they've lied to you and you haven't earned your new rank for real. Its also important, if you don't meet their standards, to know why you don't meet them and what you can do to meet them.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 8, 2017)

One thing to think about is when you are told what he needs to do to be promoted, give him a formal test yourself.  You will both be a little self conscious but you may both learn something. 

Is there a possibility he doesn't wish to continue but doesn't want to say so since it has become something of a shared family activity that he sees his parents really enjoying?  Maybe he needs to get into acting?   

I hope when you get an answer, or not, you will let us know and what any proposed solution was from the teacher.


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## Headhunter (Aug 8, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> One thing to think about is when you are told what he needs to do to be promoted, give him a formal test yourself.  You will both be a little self conscious but you may both learn something.
> 
> Is there a possibility he doesn't wish to continue but doesn't want to say so since it has become something of a shared family activity that he sees his parents really enjoying?  Maybe he needs to get into acting?
> 
> I hope when you get an answer, or not, you will let us know and what any proposed solution was from the teacher.


I see what your saying there but I don't see that helping much I mean the op obviously thinks his kid is good enough already so him doing a mock test isn't going To help much


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 8, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I see what your saying there but I don't see that helping much I mean the op obviously thinks his kid is good enough already so him doing a mock test isn't going To help much



You may be right.  But I think it could after having been given reasons by the teacher.  Also, some things may slip through the self consciousness that could be telling.

What do you think about the second possibility I mentioned?  I would hope that isn't it, but I think it is worth considering.  And more important, what to do if one thinks that is the reason.


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## Headhunter (Aug 8, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> You may be right.  But I think it could after having been given reasons by the teacher.  Also, some things may slip through the self consciousness that could be telling.
> 
> What do you think about the second possibility I mentioned?  I would hope that isn't it, but I think it is worth considering.  And more important, what to do if one thinks that is the reason.


It's possible I think especially these days most kids have done karate at at least 1 point in there life and probably about 80% quit after a short time. Most times it's the parents who want them to do martial arts and the kid is dragged there. If the kid doesn't want to do it he shouldn't be there in my eyes. It's a waste of time for everyone. For the kid who doesn't want to be there, for the parent taking them there and for the instructor who's wasting time teaching someone who has no interest when they could be teaching someone who wants to be there.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 8, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I see what your saying there but I don't see that helping much I mean the op obviously thinks his kid is good enough already so him doing a mock test isn't going To help much


Unless the child is not performing as well at the test. Some folks have the skills, but can't pass the test as easily. A mock test can help get them past that hurdle. If they take the mock test seriously, it may even show up the problem.


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## Headhunter (Aug 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Unless the child is not performing as well at the test. Some folks have the skills, but can't pass the test as easily. A mock test can help get them past that hurdle. If they take the mock test seriously, it may even show up the problem.


Yeah but the whole problem here is he's not allowed to test not that he's failing it


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## DomoArigato (Aug 8, 2017)

As I stated in my OP, I am karateka, as well as my husband. We know the criteria. Also, it was never addressed in public, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

Anyway!
To update: I spoke to Sensei and he gave me pretty every excuse I imagined it was interesting. So, that's that. Thanks for the comments!

Domo ariagato gozaimashita *bow*


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## JR 137 (Aug 8, 2017)

DomoArigato said:


> As I stated in my OP, I am karateka, as well as my husband. We know the criteria. Also, it was never addressed in public, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.
> 
> Anyway!
> To update: I spoke to Sensei and he gave me pretty every excuse I imagined it was interesting. So, that's that. Thanks for the comments!
> ...


What "excuses" did you get?

I understand if you're uncomfortable posting it.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 8, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah but the whole problem here is he's not allowed to test not that he's failing it


Well if he's not allowed to test there's a reason. The important thing is to know what that reason is so he can fix it, if he wants to.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 8, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah but the whole problem here is he's not allowed to test not that he's failing it


I forgot that point. Mock tests will not do much to help with that.


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## Tez3 (Aug 9, 2017)

DomoArigato said:


> We know the criteria.


I understand that but can you judge what he does quite dispassionately and without any bias at all either way ie too critically or too loosely? Is the instructor seeing something you aren't, such as your son isn't enjoying the training or doesn't actually want to grade but doesn't like to tell you? With both parents training and enjoying what they do there's strong unspoken pressure on the child to do the same.


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## Headhunter (Aug 9, 2017)

DomoArigato said:


> As I stated in my OP, I am karateka, as well as my husband. We know the criteria. Also, it was never addressed in public, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.
> 
> Anyway!
> To update: I spoke to Sensei and he gave me pretty every excuse I imagined it was interesting. So, that's that. Thanks for the comments!
> ...


You need to realise the instructor doesn't need to make excuses like it or not they're the ones that make the choice. They can test who they want when they want and if not they can simply say he's not ready if they want. That's just the way it is if you can't accept it then walk away.

Also is it actually "making excuses" or is if a legitimate reason why but you don't want to hear it


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 10, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> The etiquette at my school is don't ask to promote.  You'll be invited to promote when the CI feels you're ready.
> 
> I like it.  It discourages the race to promote mentality, keeps people from hounding the CI, etc.  But there's a downside to everything.  People may not feel comfortable asking why they're not invited to test when they've met the attendance requirements and they think they're skilled enough to promote.  It can be awkward asking why and trying not to come off as asking to promote.  And the CI may feel the student's pushing for an undeserved promotion.  It's a balancing act.



You make some good points. Also, I believe in other posts you said you're a school teacher. With your background in education there are some things we could discuss.


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## JR 137 (Aug 10, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> You make some good points. Also, I believe in other posts you said you're a school teacher. With your background in education there are some things we could discuss.


I teach grades 4-8 science and pre-k 3 and 4 physical education at a private school.  I'll discuss pretty much anything related.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 10, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I teach grades 4-8 science and pre-k 3 and 4 physical education at a private school.  I'll discuss pretty much anything related.



Well aside from that you said that at your dojo a student has to be told before they can test for promotion. So are tests scheduled at regular intervals or is a student just told to test when the instructor sees they're ready? Are students truly "tested" or are they just promoted and the so called test just serves the purpose of showing off what they've learned? Another words, when the instructor sees the student is ready the student puts on a "demonstration" and is automatically promoted. Im asking since there's been other people on this forum whose dojos use such a system.


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## JR 137 (Aug 10, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well aside from that you said that at your dojo a student has to be told before they can test for promotion. So are tests scheduled at regular intervals or is a student just told to test when the instructor sees they're ready? Are students truly "tested" or are they just promoted and the so called test just serves the purpose of showing off what they've learned? Another words, when the instructor sees the student is ready the student puts on a "demonstration" and is automatically promoted. Im asking since there's been other people on this forum whose dojos use such a system.


We may have had this discussion before, or maybe I had it with someone else here; I don't remember...

I'm currently a 3rd kyu at my school, therefore I can't say firsthand what happens at black belt testing.  At any rank, testing is by invitation only.  If you have to ask, the answer is no.

Tests are on the calendar for every other month or so.  Sometimes there's a couple people who'll test (adults and/or kids), sometimes no one's promoting.  Scheduling them, even if no one's testing keeps my CI organized and keeps him from forgetting.  Adults and kids test separately.

I haven't seen anyone fail, but I've heard about it happening at our school in the past.  I guess you could say it's your chance to fail more than it's your chance to pass, in a way.  People have failed for freezing and not being able to be "brought back" mentally.  People have failed by giving up, not taking it seriously, and/or other disrespectful acts.  In my CI's almost 30 years running a dojo, he's had a handful of people fail kyu tests.  Testing isn't some elaborate thing; it's basically a regular class, only the intensity is much higher and the people testing (other students not testing are there too, as it's during regular class time) are put a step in front of everyone else, and they're always paired up with black belts who'll push them harder than the norm.  Much harder.  Kyu testing is usually done before black belts class, so as the student advances, they stay for black belts class to spar with them too.  The higher the kyu student gets, the longer they stay in that class.

I guess you can say it's more of a demonstration that an actual test, but it's a demonstration where you're pushed pretty hard and pushed outside your comfort zone.  Give it all you've got, don't panic and don't do anything disrespectful, and you're good.

Black belt testing is done by our founder in NYC.  Our CI can promote to some black belt ranks, but he'd rather his teacher do it.  Black belt testing is a multi day thing.  Students routinely fail.  I've been told out of 40 or so testing, 5-10 won't pass.  They won't be called out publicly, but at the end of a session they'll be pulled aside and told to try again at another time.

My CI has never had anyone fail a black belt test.  He only sends people he knows are fully ready.  When a CI's students regularly fail black belt tests, it's more of a reflection on the CI than the students.  CI's are held accountable for their students.  There has been "Why are you sending unprepared students to test?" type questions asked of CIs.  Nakamura won't promote people to black belt ranks unless he genuinely feels they're worthy of it.  It's an actual test, not a demonstration.  I guess if the student is well prepared, one could consider it a demonstration.

At the end of the day, kyu testing is more of a formality and preparation for black belt testing, whereas black belt testing is all truly testing.

My former organization worked the same way, except kyu testing was more formal, or better yet there was more sizzle, but honestly there was less steak.  My 1st dan test was very intense and was a true test.  If you weren't up to the standards, you didn't pass.

I'd rather have to be invited rather than everyone is tested.  There's no sense in setting up people to fail when the CI knows they're not going to pass.

I've never failed an MA test.  I've honestly always been well prepared.  If I didn't feel like I deserved to test, I'd tell the CI.  Hasn't happened yet, but it's not impossible.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 10, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I've never failed an MA test. I've honestly always been well prepared. If I didn't feel like I deserved to test, I'd tell the CI. Hasn't happened yet, but it's not impossible.


I failed my first kyu test in NGA. I forgot the name of one of the 10 techniques I was testing on. I wonder if that failure contributed to me being so over-prepared for every other test.


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## JR 137 (Aug 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I failed my first kyu test in NGA. I forgot the name of one of the 10 techniques I was testing on. I wonder if that failure contributed to me being so over-prepared for every other test.


You were failed for not knowing the name of one technique?  That's pretty intense.  If the evaluation of my tests were that stringent, I'd have failed a couple.


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## Headhunter (Aug 11, 2017)

Seems the op isn't coming back shame I'd like to have known what was actually said


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 11, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> You were failed for not knowing the name of one technique?  That's pretty intense.  If the evaluation of my tests were that stringent, I'd have failed a couple.


Part of the testing format in NGA, traditionally, is that the student has to name each technique and then demonstrate it. Remembering 10 techniques is pretty easy, until you're in a test. After that failure, I started creating mnemonics to remember them, and I use those mnemonics even today to remember what's in each Classical Set.

1st Classical Set: Once, James Arness Made Us Laugh While Eating Fried Cabbage. (1st Wrist, Jacket Grab, Arm Bar, Mugger's Throw, Unbendable Arm, Leg Sweep, Whip Throw, Elbow Chop, Come-Along)

I left out the Cabbage on my first test.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 11, 2017)

JR 137 thank you for your very informative post. As it is a long post you took the time to explain all sorts of stuff. Thank you. Anyway as your post is very long and you say much in it, I will respond to what you have to say bit by bit in further posts.


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## Jenna (Aug 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Part of the testing format in NGA, traditionally, is that the student has to name each technique and then demonstrate it. Remembering 10 techniques is pretty easy, until you're in a test. After that failure, I started creating mnemonics to remember them, and I use those mnemonics even today to remember what's in each Classical Set.
> 
> 1st Classical Set: Once, James Arness Made Us Laugh While Eating Fried Cabbage. (1st Wrist, Jacket Grab, Arm Bar, Mugger's Throw, Unbendable Arm, Leg Sweep, Whip Throw, Elbow Chop, Come-Along)
> 
> I left out the Cabbage on my first test.


Tradition has it the green belt was metaphor for overcoming the struggle with leafy veggies..


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 11, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Tradition has it the green belt was metaphor for overcoming the struggle with leafy veggies..


Which means a red belt has something to do with surviving Attack of the Killer Tomatoes?


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 14, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> We may have had this discussion before, or maybe I had it with someone else here; I don't remember...
> 
> I'm currently a 3rd kyu at my school, therefore I can't say firsthand what happens at black belt testing.  At any rank, testing is by invitation only.  If you have to ask, the answer is no.
> 
> Tests are on the calendar for every other month or so.  Sometimes there's a couple people who'll test (adults and/or kids), sometimes no one's promoting.  Scheduling them, even if no one's testing keeps my CI organized and keeps him from forgetting.  Adults and kids test separately.


I see. So how does a student know if he or she is testing? Do all the students who are testing have their names up on a board or does the instructor privately tell each individual student whose testing that they're testing?

In my Karate school tests are held about every four months. It is up to the student if he or she wants to test although they might recommend against it if they feel you're not ready. Since its a test there is of course the possibility of failing and a student who tests when they recommend against it most likely will fail. Some people on this forum have called my Karate school a McDojo since students can test whenever they want but the fact of the matter is they can't test whenever they want. They only run tests about every four months so obviously a student can only test when they're running a test.



JR 137 said:


> I haven't seen anyone fail, but I've heard about it happening at our school in the past.  I guess you could say it's your chance to fail more than it's your chance to pass, in a way.  People have failed for freezing and not being able to be "brought back" mentally.  People have failed by giving up, not taking it seriously, and/or other disrespectful acts.  In my CI's almost 30 years running a dojo, he's had a handful of people fail kyu tests.  Testing isn't some elaborate thing; it's basically a regular class, only the intensity is much higher and the people testing (other students not testing are there too, as it's during regular class time) are put a step in front of everyone else, and they're always paired up with black belts who'll push them harder than the norm.  Much harder.  Kyu testing is usually done before black belts class, so as the student advances, they stay for black belts class to spar with them too.  The higher the kyu student gets, the longer they stay in that class.
> 
> I guess you can say it's more of a demonstration that an actual test, but it's a demonstration where you're pushed pretty hard and pushed outside your comfort zone.  Give it all you've got, don't panic and don't do anything disrespectful, and you're good.


If there is the possibility of passing and the possibility of failing than its a test not a demonstration even if its demonstration like in how its conducted. Some of the people on this forum have mentioned that at their schools they tell you when you're ready and you then display all the material you've learned strikes, kicks, forms, ect. and you're promoted. There is not the possibility of failing so therefore it would be a demonstration not a test.

The way I see it, the point of testing a student where there's the possibility of failing even if the student looks ready from the viewpoint of the instructors is that with a test, it tests the student's ability to perform under pressure. There is a difference in how a student performs in an ordinary class and how a student performs when they know they're being tested.



JR 137 said:


> Black belt testing is done by our founder in NYC.  Our CI can promote to some black belt ranks, but he'd rather his teacher do it.  Black belt testing is a multi day thing.  Students routinely fail.  I've been told out of 40 or so testing, 5-10 won't pass.  They won't be called out publicly, but at the end of a session they'll be pulled aside and told to try again at another time.
> 
> My CI has never had anyone fail a black belt test.  He only sends people he knows are fully ready.  When a CI's students regularly fail black belt tests, it's more of a reflection on the CI than the students.  CI's are held accountable for their students.  There has been "Why are you sending unprepared students to test?" type questions asked of CIs.  Nakamura won't promote people to black belt ranks unless he genuinely feels they're worthy of it.  It's an actual test, not a demonstration.  I guess if the student is well prepared, one could consider it a demonstration.
> 
> ...


So the way you describe it, you make it sound like going from brown to black is a big major step (assuming brown is the belt right before black), that its not the same as going up a rank in any of the previous ranks. That its proportionally a much bigger step than any of the previous rank advancements.



JR 137 said:


> I'd rather have to be invited rather than everyone is tested.  There's no sense in setting up people to fail when the CI knows they're not going to pass.
> 
> I've never failed an MA test.  I've honestly always been well prepared.  If I didn't feel like I deserved to test, I'd tell the CI.  Hasn't happened yet, but it's not impossible.



I see what you mean. You might not always be ready but if you're not ready I think the important thing is that you know exactly why you're not ready, so you know what you mostly need to work on.


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## JR 137 (Aug 14, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I see. So how does a student know if he or she is testing? Do all the students who are testing have their names up on a board or does the instructor privately tell each individual student whose testing that they're testing?
> 
> In my Karate school tests are held about every four months. It is up to the student if he or she wants to test although they might recommend against it if they feel you're not ready. Since its a test there is of course the possibility of failing and a student who tests when they recommend against it most likely will fail. Some people on this forum have called my Karate school a McDojo since students can test whenever they want but the fact of the matter is they can't test whenever they want. They only run tests about every four months so obviously a student can only test when they're running a test.
> 
> ...



My CI privately informs us when he wants to test us.  No names on the wall, but he'll mention our names later on when he's finishing class and going over upcoming event dates that are on our whiteboard.  It'll be something like "Promotion testing is next Wednesday during adult class.  X, Y, and Z are testing for their next ranks, so please come and support them if you can."  Nothing more is made out of it than that.  Some students will tell you if they can or can't make it and wish you luck.  We're a small and tight knit dojo.  

Advanced brown belt is the last kyu belt.  From
what I've heard, black belt testing is a big step up from previous tests.  Each dan grade test is a big step up from the previous dan grade too.  Kyu tests run from an hour to almost 2 hours as one progresses.  But there's only so much a student can be tested on in that time period.  Black belt testing is held over multiple sessions.  I think four 2 hour evening sessions and a half day session.  The student is tested on the entire syllabus, and each session is a different part - basics, kata, other standardized stuff, and sparring is the final half day session.  There's a few days between individual sessions.  Students who aren't going to pass are allegedly pulled aside privately after each session and told why and encouraged to try again at a later date.

Some people don't agree that black belt testing should be a big step up from kyu testing.  I look at it as a quality control measure, but I understand their viewpoint.

What you say about anyone who's eligible to test can try makes sense after you put it in those terms. I've never heard the rationale behind anyone who's eligible can sign up to test before.  As long as they've earned the promotion, there's nothing McDojo about it (not that I think students at your place didn't earn it).

Too many people throw the McDojo term around way too often.  They're the people who only see one thing and made up their minds.  I've seen the organization I'm in get bashed a few times on other forums.  I guess it's because we're no longer bare knuckle/knockdown, and some dojos have a large number of kids.  In my situation and yours, I say F them.


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So the way you describe it, you make it sound like going from brown to black is a big major step (assuming brown is the belt right before black), that its not the same as going up a rank in any of the previous ranks. That its proportionally a much bigger step than any of the previous rank advancements



Wado Ryu has three brown belts so rather than go straight from brown to black it's a progression of ever harder testing. Where I trained the senior belts had to grade on a course so the grading lasted all weekend ( from Friday eve to Sunday eve) basically. As you needed to make arrangements to go you could say when you wanted to grade but it had to be with your instructor's agreement obviously. Average time for white to black was four to five years with many choosing to take longer.


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## JR 137 (Aug 15, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Wado Ryu has three brown belts so rather than go straight from brown to black it's a progression of ever harder testing. Where I trained the senior belts had to grade on a course so the grading lasted all weekend ( from Friday eve to Sunday eve) basically. As you needed to make arrangements to go you could say when you wanted to grade but it had to be with your instructor's agreement obviously. Average time for white to black was four to five years with many choosing to take longer.


With 3 brown belt ranks, is there any new material at the last one?

My former organization had 3 brown belt ranks too. The first 2 were like other kyu ranks, with new material taught.  The 3rd brown belt rank didn't have any new material; it was refining all previous 10 kyu ranks material and preparation for shodan.  It was 6 months and however many classes minimum before being eligible to test for shodan.

My current organization only has 2 brown belt ranks, and new material is taught at both.  However, the 2nd brown belt rank (1st kyu) doesn't have much new material, and is I think 14 months minimum and a set number of classes attended.

Looking at how both schools handle the overall brown belt rank, there's really no difference; one uses 2 belts and the other uses 3 for the same time period and material.  On paper I like the 3 belts setup better, as the final step seemed more focused, but I haven't been through the 2 brown belt setup yet.  My opinion could change after the fact.

From what it appears to me, other schools use the 3 belts system, instead of calling it advanced brown belt (they sometimes wear a black belt without a dan stripe) they call it shodan-ho and will be tested again for full shodan.


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> With 3 brown belt ranks, is there any new material at the last one?



We did as well as having to go over everything we'd already done. Our belts were brown, then a brown with white stripe the last was brown with black stripe, each was a separate testing. We never did double gradings for any belt. this is much the same as ours. Wado Ryu Karate Club - Grading Syllabus


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 16, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Wado Ryu has three brown belts so rather than go straight from brown to black it's a progression of ever harder testing. Where I trained the senior belts had to grade on a course so the grading lasted all weekend ( from Friday eve to Sunday eve) basically. As you needed to make arrangements to go you could say when you wanted to grade but it had to be with your instructor's agreement obviously. Average time for white to black was four to five years with many choosing to take longer.


Well yes its common for dojos to sometimes have multiple ranks per belt, particularly with the more advanced belts, but what Im talking about is when you go from the highest rank before black belt to first degree black belt. All the Karate schools I've seen use a Kyu system where the lower the number the higher ranking the Kyu. You might start at 9th Kyu, than eventually get promoted to 8th Kyu, than 7th Kyu and so forth. Therefore 1st Kyu would be the highest rank before black belt or 1st Dan as its called. When you're a first degree black belt you're 1st Dan and then 2nd degree would be 2nd Dan and so forth. No doubt many of the people on this forum are familiar with this system but Im just pointing it out as I've never seen any Karate school use a different system although other styles of martial arts might use different systems or might not even have ranking systems. Anyway, 1st Kyu is usually a brown belt of some sort so when I mention brown belt that's what Im talking about. When I talk about going from brown to black Im talking about going from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan. Should going from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan be such a big step? Should it be proportionally much bigger than going from, say, 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu? That is what Im getting at. I hope this explanation helps to avoid confusion.


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> No doubt many of the people on this forum are familiar with this system



Is the Pope Catholic?



PhotonGuy said:


> I hope this explanation helps to avoid confusion



No, it actually made things confusing, it was fine before your 'explanation'.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 16, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> My CI privately informs us when he wants to test us.  No names on the wall, but he'll mention our names later on when he's finishing class and going over upcoming event dates that are on our whiteboard.  It'll be something like "Promotion testing is next Wednesday during adult class.  X, Y, and Z are testing for their next ranks, so please come and support them if you can."  Nothing more is made out of it than that.  Some students will tell you if they can or can't make it and wish you luck.  We're a small and tight knit dojo.


I see, so the way you make it sound is that if you're testing the CI will tell you (CI I assume stands for Chief Instructor) and if the CI doesn't tell you you're testing or doesn't say anything to you about it that means you aren't testing, so there is no reason to ask if you're testing or not. So if I was training at your dojo and a test was coming up and your CI didn't say anything to me about testing it would mean I wasn't testing so I would not ask the CI if I was testing or if I could test but what I might do is I might ask what I need to do to be able to test. If I wasn't testing it would be for a reason(s) so I might ask the CI what I need to work on, what I need to fix, so that hopefully I could test the next time.



JR 137 said:


> Advanced brown belt is the last kyu belt.  From
> what I've heard, black belt testing is a big step up from previous tests.  Each dan grade test is a big step up from the previous dan grade too.  Kyu tests run from an hour to almost 2 hours as one progresses.  But there's only so much a student can be tested on in that time period.  Black belt testing is held over multiple sessions.  I think four 2 hour evening sessions and a half day session.  The student is tested on the entire syllabus, and each session is a different part - basics, kata, other standardized stuff, and sparring is the final half day session.  There's a few days between individual sessions.  Students who aren't going to pass are allegedly pulled aside privately after each session and told why and encouraged to try again at a later date.
> 
> Some people don't agree that black belt testing should be a big step up from kyu testing.  I look at it as a quality control measure, but I understand their viewpoint.


I tend to be on the same page as those who don't think testing for a first degree black belt should be a big step up from kyu testing, at least not for somebody whose 1st kyu. By the time you're 1st kyu you should've developed the knowledge and skill to prepare you for the 1st dan test. Making it a big jump from 1st kyu to 1st dan I see as an imbalance. The whole idea of going through all various kyu ranks from 9th kyu on up is to prepare you for 1st dan. Obviously going from 9th kyu (white belt) straight to 1st dan would be a tremendous jump and that's why you don't go from 9th kyu straight to 1st dan. You go through all the various kyu levels before you test for 1st dan. That's why by the time you're 1st kyu you should be prepared to test for 1st dan and it shouldn't be such a big step, at least it shouldn't be much bigger than the previous steps. 

Put it this way. You're an academic school teacher. In academics a 70-79 is a C, an 80-89 is a B, and a 90-100 is an A. (For simplicity 
I am not going to talk about bonus points where you can get scores higher than 100.) The point is this, for each of the letter grades there is a ten point range. Now, lets say that they made it so that in order to get an A you had to score a 98 or higher and so 80-97 was a B. Would you agree with such a system? In some ways that's what you can say its like when its a big jump from 1st kyu to 1st dan.



JR 137 said:


> What you say about anyone who's eligible to test can try makes sense after you put it in those terms. I've never heard the rationale behind anyone who's eligible can sign up to test before.  As long as they've earned the promotion, there's nothing McDojo about it (not that I think students at your place didn't earn it).
> 
> Too many people throw the McDojo term around way too often.  They're the people who only see one thing and made up their minds.  I've seen the organization I'm in get bashed a few times on other forums.  I guess it's because we're no longer bare knuckle/knockdown, and some dojos have a large number of kids.  In my situation and yours, I say F them.



In my dojo if a student wants to spend the time and money to test that's their choice. Testing doesn't cost that much but it takes time and skill to test a student so you will have to pay a small fee. The higher the rank you're testing for the more it costs to test because theres more material that has to be covered. Earlier on, and I believe this was before you joined MT, some of the people here were criticizing the method used in my dojo and saying its the kind of method a McDojo would use. I did take it personally since in doing so they were calling my dojo a McDojo and they were putting down my sensei when they were criticizing his methods.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 16, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Is the Pope Catholic?


Yes




Tez3 said:


> No, it actually made things confusing, it was fine before your 'explanation'.



So what are you confused about?


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## Tez3 (Aug 17, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Mmm I see.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well yes its common for dojos to sometimes have multiple ranks per belt, particularly with the more advanced belts, but what Im talking about is when you go from the highest rank before black belt to first degree black belt. All the Karate schools I've seen use a Kyu system where the lower the number the higher ranking the Kyu. You might start at 9th Kyu, than eventually get promoted to 8th Kyu, than 7th Kyu and so forth. Therefore 1st Kyu would be the highest rank before black belt or 1st Dan as its called. When you're a first degree black belt you're 1st Dan and then 2nd degree would be 2nd Dan and so forth. No doubt many of the people on this forum are familiar with this system but Im just pointing it out as I've never seen any Karate school use a different system although other styles of martial arts might use different systems or might not even have ranking systems. Anyway, 1st Kyu is usually a brown belt of some sort so when I mention brown belt that's what Im talking about. When I talk about going from brown to black Im talking about going from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan. Should going from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan be such a big step? Should it be proportionally much bigger than going from, say, 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu? That is what Im getting at. I hope this explanation helps to avoid confusion.


In the arts I have significant experience with, there's more than a nomenclature difference between "dan" and "kyu". There's an expectation difference. There's a difference in perception of what the person is capable of. Given those differences, there probably should be a significant difference in the testing at that level, as well. If an art has fewer of those differences, there should probably be a proportionately lesser degree of difference in the testing. That reduced difference could come by reducing the expectations at shodan, or by increasing the expectations of (and leading to) ikkyu.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Put it this way. You're an academic school teacher. In academics a 70-79 is a C, an 80-89 is a B, and a 90-100 is an A. (For simplicity
> I am not going to talk about bonus points where you can get scores higher than 100.) The point is this, for each of the letter grades there is a ten point range. Now, lets say that they made it so that in order to get an A you had to score a 98 or higher and so 80-97 was a B. Would you agree with such a system? In some ways that's what you can say its like when its a big jump from 1st kyu to 1st dan.


I don't think this is equivalent. Those are scores for a given test, rather than different tests. I consider it more like finals in grade school/high school, versus finals in college/university. And there's often a higher "score" required to pass for BB, so it's the difference between a "C" in grade school and a "B" in college.

Should it be that different? Again, it depends upon the difference in expectations of the levels. Within the curriculum I use, there's less of a difference - I've lowered the shodan expectation some (no instructor training requirements) and raised the expectations at all kyu levels. Basically, I'm spreading out the testing more throughout the kyu ranks, compared to what I experienced.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> In my dojo if a student wants to spend the time and money to test that's their choice. Testing doesn't cost that much but it takes time and skill to test a student so you will have to pay a small fee. The higher the rank you're testing for the more it costs to test because theres more material that has to be covered. Earlier on, and I believe this was before you joined MT, some of the people here were criticizing the method used in my dojo and saying its the kind of method a McDojo would use. I did take it personally since in doing so they were calling my dojo a McDojo and they were putting down my sensei when they were criticizing his methods.


It's one method a McDojo might use, but that's not an indictment of the approach. There are many that are open to abuse. There's a balance every school/instructor/association has to try to strike: fairness to the student, control/availability of testing, respect for the time and effort of the instructor, and where to place the cost (monthly vs. at testing). There are motivational, personal, cultural, and business reasons why each approach might be appropriate.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In the arts I have significant experience with, there's more than a nomenclature difference between "dan" and "kyu". There's an expectation difference. There's a difference in perception of what the person is capable of. Given those differences, there probably should be a significant difference in the testing at that level, as well. If an art has fewer of those differences, there should probably be a proportionately lesser degree of difference in the testing. That reduced difference could come by reducing the expectations at shodan, or by increasing the expectations of (and leading to) ikkyu.


Im really late with this reply, I've been a bit lazy but here goes. From my own observations, in most systems its common for a student who is of the ranks 3rd kyu-1st kyu to be wearing a brown belt of some sort. Some schools might differentiate between the three kyu ranks with stripes on the belt some schools might not, every school has their own system but often a student who is of those ranks is wearing a brown belt. Anyway, the way I see it is that a student who is of the ranks 3rd kyu-1st kyu is being groomed for 1st dan and this is especially true for a student who is 1st kyu. I certainly would not be in favor of reducing the standards for 1st dan or Shodan as its called (1st degree black belt) to do so would be to water down the rank and water down the art which is if you ask me going in the direction of the so called McDojo. As for increasing the standards for the 3rd kyu-1st kyu ranks, especially 1st kyu that sounds like a good idea. Especially since, as I said earlier in this post, a student who is within those ranks is being groomed for 1st dan. 



gpseymour said:


> I don't think this is equivalent. Those are scores for a given test, rather than different tests. I consider it more like finals in grade school/high school, versus finals in college/university. And there's often a higher "score" required to pass for BB, so it's the difference between a "C" in grade school and a "B" in college.
> 
> Should it be that different? Again, it depends upon the difference in expectations of the levels. Within the curriculum I use, there's less of a difference - I've lowered the shodan expectation some (no instructor training requirements) and raised the expectations at all kyu levels. Basically, I'm spreading out the testing more throughout the kyu ranks, compared to what I experienced.


The letter grade analogy of A vs B might not be the best analogy. My point was that there is a ten point difference between an A and a B, a ten point difference between a B and a C and so forth. A better analogy might be history classes. Lets say a student in high school or college is taking history classes. In their first year or first semester they would take History I, than after that they would take History II then History III and finally History IV. History IV is not necessarily any harder than History III, II or I, its just sequential. 

Anyway its late to say this but it would still be nice to get a response from JR 137. He often says some very intelligent, insightful, and useful stuff.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 15, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Im really late with this reply, I've been a bit lazy but here goes. From my own observations, in most systems its common for a student who is of the ranks 3rd kyu-1st kyu to be wearing a brown belt of some sort. Some schools might differentiate between the three kyu ranks with stripes on the belt some schools might not, every school has their own system but often a student who is of those ranks is wearing a brown belt. Anyway, the way I see it is that a student who is of the ranks 3rd kyu-1st kyu is being groomed for 1st dan and this is especially true for a student who is 1st kyu. I certainly would not be in favor of reducing the standards for 1st dan or Shodan as its called (1st degree black belt) to do so would be to water down the rank and water down the art which is if you ask me going in the direction of the so called McDojo. As for increasing the standards for the 3rd kyu-1st kyu ranks, especially 1st kyu that sounds like a good idea. Especially since, as I said earlier in this post, a student who is within those ranks is being groomed for 1st dan.
> 
> 
> The letter grade analogy of A vs B might not be the best analogy. My point was that there is a ten point difference between an A and a B, a ten point difference between a B and a C and so forth. A better analogy might be history classes. Lets say a student in high school or college is taking history classes. In their first year or first semester they would take History I, than after that they would take History II then History III and finally History IV. History IV is not necessarily any harder than History III, II or I, its just sequential.
> ...


The History class is a better analogy. In some systems, moving from brown to black is like going from HS to college. The test for BB is akin to testing for entrance to college, so not quite like the testing for moving from one grade of HS to another. Does that make sense?

When I was talking about changing levels, what I meant was that the big gap (like there actually is in the NGAA) between brown and black doesn't exist everywhere. In some places, they don't have as high an expectation of black belts - the belt just means something different there. In others, they have the same expectations of black belts, but higher standards for brown belts. In both cases, the gap (and, likely, the testing differences) between brown and black is less extreme.


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## JR 137 (Sep 16, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Im really late with this reply, I've been a bit lazy but here goes. From my own observations, in most systems its common for a student who is of the ranks 3rd kyu-1st kyu to be wearing a brown belt of some sort. Some schools might differentiate between the three kyu ranks with stripes on the belt some schools might not, every school has their own system but often a student who is of those ranks is wearing a brown belt. Anyway, the way I see it is that a student who is of the ranks 3rd kyu-1st kyu is being groomed for 1st dan and this is especially true for a student who is 1st kyu. I certainly would not be in favor of reducing the standards for 1st dan or Shodan as its called (1st degree black belt) to do so would be to water down the rank and water down the art which is if you ask me going in the direction of the so called McDojo. As for increasing the standards for the 3rd kyu-1st kyu ranks, especially 1st kyu that sounds like a good idea. Especially since, as I said earlier in this post, a student who is within those ranks is being groomed for 1st dan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, but I think you're asking my opinion on if 3rd kyu-1st kyu testing should be harder so going from 1st kyu to 1st dan isn't a huge step in difficulty?

So long as the standard for 1st dan isn't compromised, sure.  I think it's a great thing.  I don't think you should make the shodan (1st dan) test easier in any way, but rather make the 3rd-1st kyu tests harder.

My personal experience...

1st stint in karate, I was scheduled to test for 2nd dan and preparing, but was offered a graduate assistantship 4 hours away...

Every kyu test was increasingly difficult.  10th - 4th or so weren't too hard.  3rd was a big jump, 2nd was a decent jump from 3rd.  2nd - 1st kyu was a decent jump.  Testing for 1st kyu was like a scaled down 1st dan test.  About half the amount of time, and 2/3-ish the intensity.

1st kyu test was about 2-2.5 hours.  We covered about 70% of the syllabus from 10th-2nd kyu (no new material at 1st).  There's always curveballs when doing material during a test, but there weren't very many.  It was pretty straightforward.  My CI was very strict on technique during kata, basics, and prearranged stuff.  We did 10-15 rounds of sparring. 

Shodan was very tough.  About 5 hours of actual physical testing time (we wrote and discussed a paper, and getting the belt took longer as he had a lot more to say and tell us than usual).

It was nonstop.  The first thing we did was 100 front kicks, each leg, with a black belt holding a kicking shield.  Then 100 each leg of most kicks - roundhouse, side, hook, inside-out and outside-in crescent, knee kick, groin kick, and probably a few more.  After that he said "now that we're warmed up, we can begin."  Begin?

Then we went through the entire syllabus, one kyu rank at a time, minus kata and prearranged stuff.

Then we got to kata.  He had another black belt holding a clipboard and crossing out each kata after we finished it.  He needed the clipboard because he'd call them out in random order, and we'd just keep going rather than stop and reset after each one.  There were 14 kata total.  We went through them all to his count, then through them all again without him counting.

The biggest curveball was our 1 step sparring.  We had always gone through them in order, and from a stereotypical attacker in a forward leaning stance, right hand low block, then step and punch.  We'd do them all against a right punch, then against a left punch.  We have 10 "basic" 1 steps and 10 "intermediate."  Against right punch and left punch, there's 40 total.  This time, we were in a fighting stance and moving around like free-sparring, and he'd call out a random number and random punch, such as "basic #5, left punch coming, go!" Intermediate #2, right punch coming, go!"  We did each one several times so we couldn't anticipate which ones were left/next.

Then we did 25 rounds of sparring.  2 minutes each, no break, knockdown rules (but with hand, feet and head protection), and a fresh black belt opponent every round.  After that we did a 4 minute round against each other (there was only 2 of us testing). 

Sorry if I went too far describing the shodan test.  I was reliving some glory.  I loved every second of that test.  It was by far the most physically difficult thing I've ever done.  The 1st kyu test was physically tough, but it was pretty straightforward.  The shodan test was significantly harder physically and mentally.  I spoke to my old teacher about it a few years ago.  That was the first black belt test he ran on his own (he left his organization a few weeks prior), and he said it was by far the hardest he's ever run.  There were only two of us testing, and his goal was to bring us as close to our breaking point as possible.  We were both early 20s guys who'd been around since the bare knuckle days and were two of the 3 hardest workers in the dojo.  He's lightened up a bit since then.  He said he's shortened the test to about 2.5 hours, but the sparring requirement hasn't changed any.

I'm 3rd kyu at my current dojo.  My last test was right around the 4th of July holiday.  It was only 1.5 hours, but it was easily the second hardest test I've been through, physically.  I know about 90% of the material from my previous dojo (my former organization was started by 2 guys from my current organization, so the syllabi are about 90% identical), so my current CI can push me a lot harder physically instead of having me repeat stuff as much as others without my background.

How big a jump will 1st kyu to shodan be in my current school?  No idea.  But it shouldn't be a huge jump physically as my previous dojo.  It's not an apples to apples comparison though - my previous school did shodan testing in one day.  My current organization reportedly does it over 4 or 5 sessions, with each session being around 2 hours.  If it was all in one day, as there have been occasionally for out of town people, it would basically be the same way my former sensei did it.  Basically, my former sensei did what the head of my current organization does, only he did it in one day vs spread over 4 evenings.  So if I'm currently used to physically intense 2 hour testing sessions, my shodan test won't be a big jump; it'll just be more of the sessions.  But my teacher and his teacher (who'll test me for shodan, and is the head of my current organization) most likely have different curveballs to throw at me.  Being two different people, that's just the nature of the beast though. 

Sorry for the extra long post.  Hopefully it doesn't take an hour to read through it all


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## JR 137 (Sep 16, 2017)

@PhotonGuy and @gpseymour

I came up with what I think is a better analogy while I was writing my previous dissertation (  )...

Let's say you have to jump 100 feet total between 2nd kyu and shodan.  Rather than jumping 10 feet between 2nd and first, and 90 feet between 1st kyu and shodan, what PhotonGuy is saying is how about jumping 30 feet between 3-2, 30 feet between 2-1, and the remaining 40 feet between 1st kyu and shodan?  The 100 feet total distance jumped is still the same, but it's just spread out in more even intervals.

Maybe it sounds better in my head than in yours though.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 17, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> @PhotonGuy and @gpseymour
> 
> I came up with what I think is a better analogy while I was writing my previous dissertation (  )...
> 
> ...


I do think that's a better analogy. And it fits my reply better. If 100 feet is the objective for shodan, and the tests have been testing 10 feet each, with 7 ranks, you're left with a big gap on the last test. Two other organizations might have more even testing - one because they test 80' at shodan (that's just what their requirement is, what BB means), and another has more stringent testing along the way (about 12 feet each rank) using the same 100 foot requirement at shodan. I'm not sure there's a "better" among those. The first group may find some value in the big change in requirements - using it as a part of the test to separate two groups (especially where BB is an instructor rank). The second group has simply decided shodan isn't as important a rank. The third has more gradual development, so there's little difference between ikkyu and shodan.

I liked the significant step-up I went through (it was actually two - a pretty big change on ikkyu test, then a bigger change at shodan test). But I decided to use both of methods of removing the big step-up. I won't start to certify an instructor until after they complete their shodan, so that part of the requirements (instructor training) is reduced. I have also increased the requirements for every student rank (and removed a rank).


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## JR 137 (Sep 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I do think that's a better analogy. And it fits my reply better. If 100 feet is the objective for shodan, and the tests have been testing 10 feet each, with 7 ranks, you're left with a big gap on the last test. Two other organizations might have more even testing - one because they test 80' at shodan (that's just what their requirement is, what BB means), and another has more stringent testing along the way (about 12 feet each rank) using the same 100 foot requirement at shodan. I'm not sure there's a "better" among those. The first group may find some value in the big change in requirements - using it as a part of the test to separate two groups (especially where BB is an instructor rank). The second group has simply decided shodan isn't as important a rank. The third has more gradual development, so there's little difference between ikkyu and shodan.
> 
> I liked the significant step-up I went through (it was actually two - a pretty big change on ikkyu test, then a bigger change at shodan test). But I decided to use both of methods of removing the big step-up. I won't start to certify an instructor until after they complete their shodan, so that part of the requirements (instructor training) is reduced. I have also increased the requirements for every student rank (and removed a rank).


I think I liked the significant step up in my previous organization, but I'm not 100% sure it was actually the step up or not.

I really liked the hard test.  I liked being pushed hard.  I liked that I thought it would be really hard, yet didn't truly realize how hard it would actually be.  I liked that as much of a test of my knowledge and ability as it was (I definitely would've failed if I didn't know my stuff), it was far more of a test of will;  I wouldn't have been invited if to test if my CI was on the fence about my knowledge and ability.  Then again, if he thought I'd give up, I wouldn't have been invited to test either.

In the end, I guess you really have to make the big jump in difficulty from 1st kyu (ikkyu for PhotonGuy) to shodan if part of shodan testing is testing the candidate's will/determination.  IMO it's every bit a learning experience as it is a test in that regard.  Learning where you stand, how hard you can be pushed and are willing to be pushed.

My CI pushes me harder in every kyu test than my previous sensei did, up to this point.  But I'm pretty sure he pushes my harder than the others.  I can't say that for certain because I've never tested alongside anyone else for the same rank at the same time.  The others testing with me have always been lower ranks (I'm the highest kyu adult in the dojo), except the first one or two tests when I was testing for 8th, and another adult was testing for 1st.

If I'm genuinely pushed harder than the norm, it's because I've already been through the process before and he knows I can handle it.

Regardless of everything, I love the really hard tests.  Not because it gives me more pride in the belt I earned, but because I loved being pushed out of my comfort zone.  It's honestly my favorite part of karate.  It like the difference in winning a soccer game 10-0 where you didn't break a sweat, and winning 1-0 where it took everything you had.  10-0 bores me, that 1-0 win means everything.  I'd even rather lose 0-1 and know I gave it my all than win 10-0 against a bunch of people who had no business being on the field with me.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 24, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> @PhotonGuy and @gpseymour
> 
> I came up with what I think is a better analogy while I was writing my previous dissertation (  )...
> 
> ...



I see what you mean but I would also like to put into perspective the time it takes to advance in rank and this might be the best example. Lets say it takes 8 months to go from 3rd kyu to 2nd kyu and 8 months to go from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu than it should take around 8 months to go from 1st kyu to 1st dan or maybe a year at the most, but it shouldn't take much longer than that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I see what you mean but I would also like to put into perspective the time it takes to advance in rank and this might be the best example. Lets say it takes 8 months to go from 3rd kyu to 2nd kyu and 8 months to go from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu than it should take around 8 months to go from 1st kyu to 1st dan or maybe a year at the most, but it shouldn't take much longer than that.


In general, I agree that this makes sense. But I don't see any reason it must be so. If there is instructor training, it might be held until this point, and that would naturally make this a longer transition. It could also be started a rank or two earlier, keeping them more even. I don't see any real advantage to one or the other approach.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In general, I agree that this makes sense. But I don't see any reason it must be so. If there is instructor training, it might be held until this point, and that would naturally make this a longer transition. It could also be started a rank or two earlier, keeping them more even. I don't see any real advantage to one or the other approach.



If by instructor training, if you mean that when a student reaches 1st dan that they're expected to help out with instruction and that therefore a 1st kyu student is going to start to undergo instructor training that could make the transition longer but from what I've seen in some dojos and from my own experience in my first serious dojo, brown belt students sometimes help out with instruction. All too often a brown belt student will be instructing other lower ranking students under the guidance of the chief instructor. This might start as early as 3rd kyu. So if a 1st dan student is expected to help out with instruction in a major way than such instructor training it would make sense should start perhaps as early as 3rd kyu. That way a 1st kyu student will be much more ready for when they are expected to play a bigger role as an instructor at 1st dan.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> If by instructor training, if you mean that when a student reaches 1st dan that they're expected to help out with instruction and that therefore a 1st kyu student is going to start to undergo instructor training that could make the transition longer but from what I've seen in some dojos and from my own experience in my first serious dojo, brown belt students sometimes help out with instruction. All too often a brown belt student will be instructing other lower ranking students under the guidance of the chief instructor. This might start as early as 3rd kyu. So if a 1st dan student is expected to help out with instruction in a major way than such instructor training it would make sense should start perhaps as early as 3rd kyu. That way a 1st kyu student will be much more ready for when they are expected to play a bigger role as an instructor at 1st dan.


In the NGAA, 1st dan is a full instructor. So, during the transition from 1st kyu to 1st dan, there's an instructor prep portion. Most will have started their "assisting" at 2nd kyu, but there's a full formal process (including a required year of teaching at least a class a week) for instructor development. That expands the timeframe more, because of the time commitments to the instructor development. And it could be shifted, starting the development program earlier to keep the steps more regular, but the progression is pretty stable. First belt takes 2-3 months, next one takes a few months, next one takes a bit more, and so on. Most folks spend about 18 months at 1st kyu, which is in line with the increasing length for each next promotion.

I could see adjusting to make things more even, but that would mean starting all the way back at 5th kyu, changing the requirements so it takes at least a few months to get there. If they did that, there'd then be a huge step from 1st-kyu/1st-dan to 1st-dan/2nd-dan (which takes a minimum of 3 years). By having a progressively bigger step from kyu to kyu, it makes a smooth transition to the dan rankings. Folks just get used to a progressively longer time spent at each point.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In the NGAA, 1st dan is a full instructor. So, during the transition from 1st kyu to 1st dan, there's an instructor prep portion. Most will have started their "assisting" at 2nd kyu, but there's a full formal process (including a required year of teaching at least a class a week) for instructor development. That expands the timeframe more, because of the time commitments to the instructor development. And it could be shifted, starting the development program earlier to keep the steps more regular, but the progression is pretty stable. First belt takes 2-3 months, next one takes a few months, next one takes a bit more, and so on. Most folks spend about 18 months at 1st kyu, which is in line with the increasing length for each next promotion.
> 
> I could see adjusting to make things more even, but that would mean starting all the way back at 5th kyu, changing the requirements so it takes at least a few months to get there. If they did that, there'd then be a huge step from 1st-kyu/1st-dan to 1st-dan/2nd-dan (which takes a minimum of 3 years). By having a progressively bigger step from kyu to kyu, it makes a smooth transition to the dan rankings. Folks just get used to a progressively longer time spent at each point.



In some systems a 1st dan will be a full instructor in others a 1st dan might be more of an assistant instructor. I've seen some systems where full instructors wear special uniforms. A student could be 1st dan but not be a full instructor and not wear the special uniform. You say it usually takes 18 months to go from 1st kyu to 1st dan. So I assume it takes around 14-16 months to go fro 2nd kyu to 1st kyu. That would be reasonable. To the best of my knowledge in BJJ they don't call their ranks by kyu or dan. Rather, ranks are simply addressed by their belt color. In the BJJ system it usually takes about 2 years to go from brown to black and it usually takes 2 years to go from purple to brown so its in proportion. But, for it to take, say, 8 months to go from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu and then 2 years to go from 1st kyu to 1st dan is absurd. 

It would make sense, depending on the system, that it might take a bit longer to advance in rank once you get to the high ranks and by that I mean when you get to around the rank of 3rd kyu and above, but for it to take much longer would make it out of proportion.


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## skribs (Dec 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I failed my first kyu test in NGA. I forgot the name of one of the 10 techniques I was testing on. I wonder if that failure contributed to me being so over-prepared for every other test.



You forgot one name and that failed the test for you?  Jeez.  I'd be nowhere in my art if a single mistake cost me the test.  Out of 18 tests I've taken there, I think there's only one test where I _haven't_ made at least one mistake (and even then, maybe I did and didn't realize it).


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2017)

skribs said:


> You forgot one name and that failed the test for you?  Jeez.  I'd be nowhere in my art if a single mistake cost me the test.  Out of 18 tests I've taken there, I think there's only one test where I _haven't_ made at least one mistake (and even then, maybe I did and didn't realize it).


Naming the techniques you are testing on is part of their requirements. It's not just a matter of remembering the name - I just forgot one of the techniques, and couldn't remember which one was missing. But even forgetting the name of a technique would be a failure with many instructors.

I've been debating whether I care if students can recall all their techniques, or if I prefer to be able to request (in the moment) what I want to see. There's a (non-martial, but possible training) benefit to small requirements like that.


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## skribs (Dec 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Naming the techniques you are testing on is part of their requirements. It's not just a matter of remembering the name - I just forgot one of the techniques, and couldn't remember which one was missing. But even forgetting the name of a technique would be a failure with many instructors.
> 
> I've been debating whether I care if students can recall all their techniques, or if I prefer to be able to request (in the moment) what I want to see. There's a (non-martial, but possible training) benefit to small requirements like that.



Did you get a chance to rectify it, or did they just say "you missed one" and fail you on the spot?

Even then, 90% was an A- in most classes I ever took.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 27, 2017)

skribs said:


> Did you get a chance to rectify it, or did they just say "you missed one" and fail you on the spot?
> 
> Even then, 90% was an A- in most classes I ever took.


Failed, had to wait 2 weeks and try again. Same as if I'd tried to do the technique and couldn't. Since the curriculum is cumulative, completely failing any one technique is always a failure on the test, even when all 50 techniques are tested.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Failed, had to wait 2 weeks and try again. Same as if I'd tried to do the technique and couldn't. Since the curriculum is cumulative, completely failing any one technique is always a failure on the test, even when all 50 techniques are tested.


well 2 weeks aint bad at all.  in Japanese Goju-ryu a kyu rank only happens once or twice a year.  students would have to wait until the next test.  for black belt from what i am told only the head of the organization gives those so you would have to fly out to California again in a year or two to try again.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Failed, had to wait 2 weeks and try again. Same as if I'd tried to do the technique and couldn't. Since the curriculum is cumulative, completely failing any one technique is always a failure on the test, even when all 50 techniques are tested.


This was one of the biggest issues for me, for a while, and part of the reason it took me over a decade to get to black belt. I knew (and still know) all the techniques from my original art, up to black, which is probably 75+ separate techniques not including forms. My issue is that then we also needed to know which techniques were for which belt, and what order they were for that belt. I just flat out could not remember the order, especially since I learned many of them out of order to begin with. So you could ask me to perform a technique, any technique, and I would do it better than some of the black belts (whom had been training half as long as me), but then you say "perform brown belt 1 kempo 3" and I'd just give a blank stare and start laughing that you want me to remember what that is.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 28, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> well 2 weeks aint bad at all.  in Japanese Goju-ryu a kyu rank only happens once or twice a year.  students would have to wait until the next test.  for black belt from what i am told only the head of the organization gives those so you would have to fly out to California again in a year or two to try again.



What you describe is perhaps in a specific Goju-ryu organization but it wouldn't apply to all Goju-ryu dojos. I am training in Goju-ryu right now and from my experience it takes about four months to get a belt. Right now I am a yellow belt which comes right after white and my instructor said I might be testing for orange in January. As for higher kyu ranks or going from 1st kyu to 1st dan I suppose it might take longer to advance although I don't know of the specifics yet.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 28, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> This was one of the biggest issues for me, for a while, and part of the reason it took me over a decade to get to black belt. I knew (and still know) all the techniques from my original art, up to black, which is probably 75+ separate techniques not including forms. My issue is that then we also needed to know which techniques were for which belt, and what order they were for that belt. I just flat out could not remember the order, especially since I learned many of them out of order to begin with. So you could ask me to perform a technique, any technique, and I would do it better than some of the black belts (whom had been training half as long as me), but then you say "perform brown belt 1 kempo 3" and I'd just give a blank stare and start laughing that you want me to remember what that is.



Earning rank means meeting your instructor's standards and obviously in your system the standards did not just consist of being able to perform the techniques exceptionally well you also had to know the names of the techniques, what belts they were for, and the order they were in. So if you wanted to earn rank at your school you had to know that. Preparing for advancement and preparing for rank tests involves knowing what you need to know and properly studying and training so that you can pass.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 28, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Earning rank means meeting your instructor's standards and obviously in your system the standards did not just consist of being able to perform the techniques exceptionally well you also had to know the names of the techniques, what belts they were for, and the order they were in. So if you wanted to earn rank at your school you had to know that. Preparing for advancement and preparing for rank tests involves knowing what you need to know and properly studying and training so that you can pass.


Yup. I wasn't complaining or saying it's unfair, just relaying an experience, about why it took me so long. If the belt was important to me I would have spent more time figuring out the order, but I'd rather spend my time working on the techniques themselves. So I spent a couple years not testing.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 28, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> What you describe is perhaps in a specific Goju-ryu organization but it wouldn't apply to all Goju-ryu dojos


If you look at my post again I said Japanese Goju-ryu. Which is different from Okinawan Goju-ryu.  By using the Japanese prefix I was implying the Goju kai organization and the Yamaguchi lineage.  When the prefix Japanese is used in this instance it is usually infers the Yamaguchi line. So yes you are correct my statement applies only to this organization. I was not under the assumption that all Goju-ryu headquarters are located in California or that they would all follow the same guidelines.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 28, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> well 2 weeks aint bad at all.  in Japanese Goju-ryu a kyu rank only happens once or twice a year.  students would have to wait until the next test.  for black belt from what i am told only the head of the organization gives those so you would have to fly out to California again in a year or two to try again.


Yeah, that's where it becomes less problematic to be that picky. We could test at almost any time - usually took about a week or so to schedule it, and if you failed, you were required to wait at least 2 weeks (longer at higher ranks, IIRC) before re-testing. At brown and black belt, the possibility of "rechecks" showed up. So, if you didn't pass as well as you should have (so, the technique wasn't at BB level), but didn't actually fail it, you'd just get a re-check on that technique. Too many re-checks would also fail.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 28, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> This was one of the biggest issues for me, for a while, and part of the reason it took me over a decade to get to black belt. I knew (and still know) all the techniques from my original art, up to black, which is probably 75+ separate techniques not including forms. My issue is that then we also needed to know which techniques were for which belt, and what order they were for that belt. I just flat out could not remember the order, especially since I learned many of them out of order to begin with. So you could ask me to perform a technique, any technique, and I would do it better than some of the black belts (whom had been training half as long as me), but then you say "perform brown belt 1 kempo 3" and I'd just give a blank stare and start laughing that you want me to remember what that is.


Yeah, that would be tough. I created mnemonics to remember the 5 Classical sets (1st set: "Once, James Arness Made Us Laugh While Eating Fried Cabbage."). My wife remembered them by how many had primary involvement by body part. Even with mnemonics, it's not entirely easy (4 techniques start with S in the 5th set, 2 in the 4th, and easy to confuse between them). The question eventually becomes whether the benefit of the added task of memorization is worth it, if it causes some folks to have trouble passing. The way I learned them, it was fairly easy, because we learned them almost entirely by set. The way I teach them is somewhat divorced of the sets, and probably becoming more so the next update I do. That might make it less useful to have folks try to memorize all that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 28, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> What you describe is perhaps in a specific Goju-ryu organization but it wouldn't apply to all Goju-ryu dojos. I am training in Goju-ryu right now and from my experience it takes about four months to get a belt. Right now I am a yellow belt which comes right after white and my instructor said I might be testing for orange in January. As for higher kyu ranks or going from 1st kyu to 1st dan I suppose it might take longer to advance although I don't know of the specifics yet.


Interesting. I think I'd heard the once-a-year thing about Goju before, but I might be mixing it with a discussion of another style (perhaps an entirely different art, for that matter).


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 28, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Yup. I wasn't complaining or saying it's unfair, just relaying an experience, about why it took me so long. If the belt was important to me I would have spent more time figuring out the order, but I'd rather spend my time working on the techniques themselves. So I spent a couple years not testing.


I suspect my experience at my first test contributed to my long stays at each subsequent rank. By the time I tested, remembering each new set was a non-issue.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I suspect my experience at my first test contributed to my long stays at each subsequent rank. By the time I tested, remembering each new set was a non-issue.


We had a similar issue earlier but I think there' two additional things that made it tough for me. The first is everything was numbered, without names so no chance of mnemonics, just had to memorize color, type and number. The second is i started off in the kids class, and they learn things in a different order. So I couldn't remember things how I learned them. I had to figure out where everything I already knew fell into place.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Interesting. I think I'd heard the once-a-year thing about Goju before, but I might be mixing it with a discussion of another style (perhaps an entirely different art, for that matter).


Even within styles there is tons of variance on how its taught and what the standards of the instructors are.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 28, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> We had a similar issue earlier but I think there' two additional things that made it tough for me. The first is everything was numbered, without names so no chance of mnemonics, just had to memorize color, type and number. The second is i started off in the kids class, and they learn things in a different order. So I couldn't remember things how I learned them. I had to figure out where everything I already knew fell into place.


Yeah, I can see how both of those would complicate things. I need to find someone who started NGA in kids' classes and see if they experienced that, since the scattering of techniques they cover aren't in the same order as in the adult curriculum. 

As for not having names, that's just sadistic, man.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, I can see how both of those would complicate things. I need to find someone who started NGA in kids' classes and see if they experienced that, since the scattering of techniques they cover aren't in the same order as in the adult curriculum.
> 
> As for not having names, that's just sadistic, man.


Honestly I found it funny. My senseis knew the issues I had with it, so when I started laughing when they asked for a technique it was no big deal. 

But I would not be surprised if people in your kids classes have the same issue, if you should learn things set by set. Definitely adds to confusion, unless they still progress differently once they switch.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 31, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Yup. I wasn't complaining or saying it's unfair, just relaying an experience, about why it took me so long. If the belt was important to me I would have spent more time figuring out the order, but I'd rather spend my time working on the techniques themselves. So I spent a couple years not testing.


Well the way you describe it, for rank advancement your instructor required not only that you're able to perform the techniques themselves proficiently but to also name them and to know what belt they were for and the order they were in. The reason why I like to focus on meeting the instructor's standards for rank advancement is because by working to meet his standards that way Im developing the art the way he has it structured. The instructor has the standards he has for a reason. You say the belt wasn't important to you, earning rank is not about coming into possession of a belt of a certain color or putting on a belt of a certain color its about meeting standards set by your instructor. I would want to develop the art the way my instructor has it structured, not in my own way, because I've put my time and trust into the instructor so Im going to develop the art his way and I do that by working to meet his standards for rank advancement.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 1, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well the way you describe it, for rank advancement your instructor required not only that you're able to perform the techniques themselves proficiently but to also name them and to know what belt they were for and the order they were in. The reason why I like to focus on meeting the instructor's standards for rank advancement is because by working to meet his standards that way Im developing the art the way he has it structured. The instructor has the standards he has for a reason. You say the belt wasn't important to you, earning rank is not about coming into possession of a belt of a certain color or putting on a belt of a certain color its about meeting standards set by your instructor. I would want to develop the art the way my instructor has it structured, not in my own way, because I've put my time and trust into the instructor so Im going to develop the art his way and I do that by working to meet his standards for rank advancement.


How am I not developing in the way my instructor wants me to? The requirement is, in order to advance I had to memorize the order of material, and their numbers. I did not memorize them, so I did not advance. Instead I improved my techniques and spent years refining them, rather than learn anything new. That's well within their guidelines as, again, the requirement is "to advance I had to learn the order", not "to practice I had to learn the order". If any of them felt like I was not developing the art properly they would have told me that themselves.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 3, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> How am I not developing in the way my instructor wants me to? The requirement is, in order to advance I had to memorize the order of material, and their numbers. I did not memorize them, so I did not advance. Instead I improved my techniques and spent years refining them, rather than learn anything new. That's well within their guidelines as, again, the requirement is "to advance I had to learn the order", not "to practice I had to learn the order". If any of them felt like I was not developing the art properly they would have told me that themselves.



I've never been to your school and I certainly wasn't there when you were there so as far as you developing the art the way your instructors wanted you to, I wouldn't know. All I know is that if I train under an instructor that I focus on the requirements he has for promotion which judging from your previous posts, included memorizing the techniques and their order and number and level in addition to improving upon them and refining them. In my BJJ class the requirements for rank advancement are to come to class, focus on what's being taught, and to train hard. And there's a minimum length of time you have to be at your current rank before you can advance further. Why I like to work on fulfilling the instructor's requirements for rank advancement is because whatever his requirements are he has them for a reason. I might not understand why he requires certain stuff but he's the instructor and therefore he has the experience and he knows what he's doing and so I work on fulfilling his requirements.


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## Headhunter (Jan 5, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well the way you describe it, for rank advancement your instructor required not only that you're able to perform the techniques themselves proficiently but to also name them and to know what belt they were for and the order they were in. The reason why I like to focus on meeting the instructor's standards for rank advancement is because by working to meet his standards that way Im developing the art the way he has it structured. The instructor has the standards he has for a reason. You say the belt wasn't important to you, earning rank is not about coming into possession of a belt of a certain color or putting on a belt of a certain color its about meeting standards set by your instructor. I would want to develop the art the way my instructor has it structured, not in my own way, because I've put my time and trust into the instructor so Im going to develop the art his way and I do that by working to meet his standards for rank advancement.


Personally I couldn't care less about meeting an instructors standards all I care about is meeting my own standards. I train for myself not for anyone else.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 5, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've never been to your school and I certainly wasn't there when you were there so as far as you developing the art the way your instructors wanted you to, I wouldn't know. All I know is that if I train under an instructor that I focus on the requirements he has for promotion which judging from your previous posts, included memorizing the techniques and their order and number and level in addition to improving upon them and refining them. In my BJJ class the requirements for rank advancement are to come to class, focus on what's being taught, and to train hard. And there's a minimum length of time you have to be at your current rank before you can advance further. Why I like to work on fulfilling the instructor's requirements for rank advancement is because whatever his requirements are he has them for a reason. I might not understand why he requires certain stuff but he's the instructor and therefore he has the experience and he knows what he's doing and so I work on fulfilling his requirements.


My response is basically word for word @Headhunter's.


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## Headhunter (Jan 5, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> My response is basically word for word @Headhunter's.


I know how I word it sounds selfish...but at the end of the day martial arts is selfish...it's not a team activity you're there for yourself. Not for the others not for the instructor for me...to many get caught up with doing it fr their teacher and frankly I think some people have a very unhealthy attitude and dedication to their instructor...like you're grown adults and they'd jump to attention if they snap their fingers and follow them around like lost puppies. I've never been that way. I respect all my instructors for their skills and listen to their lessons but im my own person, they're human just like me and they're no better than me as people just because of some tape on their belts


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 5, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I know how I word it sounds selfish...but at the end of the day martial arts is selfish...it's not a team activity you're there for yourself. Not for the others not for the instructor for me...to many get caught up with doing it fr their teacher and frankly I think some people have a very unhealthy attitude and dedication to their instructor...like you're grown adults and they'd jump to attention if they snap their fingers and follow them around like lost puppies. I've never been that way. I respect all my instructors for their skills and listen to their lessons but im my own person, they're human just like me and they're no better than me as people just because of some tape on their belts


Absolutely agree. I'm paying them to get a service. If I'm getting a service, it's not up to them to decide when/how I'm satisfied with that service, it's up to me to get what I want out of it. Which isn't always what the instructor wants from me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Absolutely agree. I'm paying them to get a service. If I'm getting a service, it's not up to them to decide when/how I'm satisfied with that service, it's up to me to get what I want out of it. Which isn't always what the instructor wants from me.


The only temper to that is the needs of the other students.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The only temper to that is the needs of the other students.


True. But in general I don't think not focusing on rank can hurt the other students.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> True. But in general I don't think not focusing on rank can hurt the other students.


I agree. In most cases, that will have no real effect on others. My view is that the student should be there for what they want. If that REALLY doesn't align with the instructor's goals and approach, they're at the wrong school. 

The only way I can think of off-hand that a person's approach (and not bothering with rank requirements) might matter to others would be something like terminology. If someone joined my program and didn't bother to learn (and use) the terminology we use - on the premise that terminology doesn't change their ability - that would almost certainly have a detrimental effect on those they train with. It would add confusion and leave more room for miscommunication. It would also probably hold them back in their development, since they wouldn't actually get the full teaching if they don't know the terms used. That example is probably a bit of a stretch, though.


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## Headhunter (Jan 6, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Absolutely agree. I'm paying them to get a service. If I'm getting a service, it's not up to them to decide when/how I'm satisfied with that service, it's up to me to get what I want out of it. Which isn't always what the instructor wants from me.


Yeah I mean I see guys in their 40s who are married and have kids creeping around their instructors like they're god jumping to every command even outside the school...to me that's just pretty weird like your an adult have some self respect. As I say I like my instructors and respect them but if they try and tell how to live my life outside the class ill tell them where to go....which I've pretty much done with my old one


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 6, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Personally I couldn't care less about meeting an instructors standards all I care about is meeting my own standards. I train for myself not for anyone else.



In the long run you're right in that eventually you do develop your martial arts in your own way and you work on meeting your own standards but the roots come from your instructor, at least that's my experience. If you focus on only meeting your own standards and throw your instructor's standards out the window on day one, first of all some instructors won't like that. Second of all you might not learn more advanced material. In some dojos you have to reach certain ranks to learn more advanced material but even if you're training at a dojo that does not require rank advancement to learn more material they will most likely at least require a certain level of proficiency in the current material that you've been taught before they teach you more advanced stuff. As to how much proficiency is required that depends on your instructor's standards and that's why it might be necessary to work on meeting your instructor's standards, not your own, if you want to learn more advanced material.

You train for yourself and not anyone else, that's your choice. People train for all different reasons and they've got all different sorts of goals and motivations for training. As for me, when I do select a martial art to train in I work on meeting my instructor's standards at least until making 1st dan, then I work more on developing the art my own way, as I've done with my primary art. But that's just me. Everybody has their own reasons for training and their own ways for going about doing it.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 6, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I know how I word it sounds selfish...but at the end of the day martial arts is selfish...it's not a team activity you're there for yourself. Not for the others not for the instructor for me...


That depends. Sometimes martial arts is done as a team sport. For instance, at tournaments they've got team katas. Or a particular dojo might compete as a team. Sure, martial arts is less of a team sport than other sports such as football and baseball but it can still be done as a team sport depending on how its done.


Headhunter said:


> to many get caught up with doing it fr their teacher and frankly I think some people have a very unhealthy attitude and dedication to their instructor...like you're grown adults and they'd jump to attention if they snap their fingers and follow them around like lost puppies.


Some people might disagree with you. Some of the people on this forum post messages where they make training in the martial arts sound like being in the military.


Headhunter said:


> I've never been that way. I respect all my instructors for their skills and listen to their lessons but im my own person, they're human just like me and they're no better than me as people just because of some tape on their belts


I see where you're coming from. No instructor is perfect and there are times when even the best instructor should be questioned. However, instructors have the experience, and that's why I like to follow their lessons inside the dojo. As you said, a martial arts instructor isn't necessarily better than anyone else as a person and that's why I follow their lessons in the dojo but outside the dojo its a different matter.


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## JR 137 (Jan 6, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Personally I couldn't care less about meeting an instructors standards all I care about is meeting my own standards. I train for myself not for anyone else.


That’s a great mentality, so long as your own standards are at least on par with your teacher’s standards, if not higher than theirs.  And/or their standards are realistic and reasonable.  

When someone’s personal standards are lower than their teacher’s standards (barring a teacher with unrealistic/unreasonable standards), then it becomes an issue.

Teachers should set the bar high enough to reach, but they should be setting a minimum standard and not a maximum.


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## Headhunter (Jan 6, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> That’s a great mentality, so long as your own standards are at least on par with your teacher’s standards, if not higher than theirs.  And/or their standards are realistic and reasonable.
> 
> When someone’s personal standards are lower than their teacher’s standards (barring a teacher with unrealistic/unreasonable standards), then it becomes an issue.
> 
> Teachers should set the bar high enough to reach, but they should be setting a minimum standard and not a maximum.


Not really because if my standards are lower then so what? I'm paying money to be there so my happiness is what's important not theirs and if I'm happy with where I am even if its not at a great level then that's fine with me


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> In the long run you're right in that eventually you do develop your martial arts in your own way and you work on meeting your own standards but the roots come from your instructor, at least that's my experience. If you focus on only meeting your own standards and throw your instructor's standards out the window on day one, first of all some instructors won't like that. Second of all you might not learn more advanced material. In some dojos you have to reach certain ranks to learn more advanced material but even if you're training at a dojo that does not require rank advancement to learn more material they will most likely at least require a certain level of proficiency in the current material that you've been taught before they teach you more advanced stuff. As to how much proficiency is required that depends on your instructor's standards and that's why it might be necessary to work on meeting your instructor's standards, not your own, if you want to learn more advanced material.
> 
> You train for yourself and not anyone else, that's your choice. People train for all different reasons and they've got all different sorts of goals and motivations for training. As for me, when I do select a martial art to train in I work on meeting my instructor's standards at least until making 1st dan, then I work more on developing the art my own way, as I've done with my primary art. But that's just me. Everybody has their own reasons for training and their own ways for going about doing it.


That's pretty well sated, PG. When a student walks in, they have their own goals and aims. But if they are a true beginner, they don't really have the knowledge to create their own standard - that's actually a large part of why we need instructors.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> That’s a great mentality, so long as your own standards are at least on par with your teacher’s standards, if not higher than theirs.  And/or their standards are realistic and reasonable.
> 
> When someone’s personal standards are lower than their teacher’s standards (barring a teacher with unrealistic/unreasonable standards), then it becomes an issue.
> 
> Teachers should set the bar high enough to reach, but they should be setting a minimum standard and not a maximum.


It would only be an issue if that person wants the next rank. If I have a student who's happy being mediocre, the only time I'll have a problem with them hanging out at whatever rank they get stuck at, would be if it translates to being a weak partner to work with - causing problems for others.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 6, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> That’s a great mentality, so long as your own standards are at least on par with your teacher’s standards, if not higher than theirs.  And/or their standards are realistic and reasonable.
> 
> When someone’s personal standards are lower than their teacher’s standards (barring a teacher with unrealistic/unreasonable standards), then it becomes an issue.
> 
> Teachers should set the bar high enough to reach, but they should be setting a minimum standard and not a maximum.


Already been said, but why is that an issue? If my standard involves me learning at a pace where I can know all the material within the next year, and my teacher wants me to know the same amount of material in the next 6 months, or with a certain amount of sharpness, why would that matter? It just means my testing would be delayed. Only issue I could see is if my low standards are disruptive (demotivating to other people, clearly not taking it seriously in class, being a bad partner, etc.), but just general standards shouldn't matter.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Already been said, but why is that an issue? If my standard involves me learning at a pace where I can know all the material within the next year, and my teacher wants me to know the same amount of material in the next 6 months, or with a certain amount of sharpness, why would that matter? It just means my testing would be delayed. Only issue I could see is if my low standards are disruptive (demotivating to other people, clearly not taking it seriously in class, being a bad partner, etc.), but just general standards shouldn't matter.


I think part of the issue is what the standard is applied to. If it's about pace, I can't think of how that would be an issue. If it's a standard for intensity, precision, control, etc., then it could be a problem. So, whether it's a problem or not depends on the nature of the standard.


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## Headhunter (Jan 7, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Already been said, but why is that an issue? If my standard involves me learning at a pace where I can know all the material within the next year, and my teacher wants me to know the same amount of material in the next 6 months, or with a certain amount of sharpness, why would that matter? It just means my testing would be delayed. Only issue I could see is if my low standards are disruptive (demotivating to other people, clearly not taking it seriously in class, being a bad partner, etc.), but just general standards shouldn't matter.


Agreed. Teachers there to teach students there to learn. How they learn and what they get out of their learning is all down to the student. Teacher just needs to teach that's his job let the student worry about their own standards. Teacher should always be there for advice If needed otherwise its up to the student they're the one paying the money


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 12, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Not really because if my standards are lower then so what? I'm paying money to be there so my happiness is what's important not theirs and if I'm happy with where I am even if its not at a great level then that's fine with me


You have a point there, your standards are your own and you're paying for the lessons and you took up lessons because you want to get something out of it and what you want to get out of it might be different than what another student wants to get out of it since everybody trains for their own reason or reasons. So a good instructor should not discourage you for pursuing your goals whatever they might be.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 31, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> My dojo has the rule of don't ask to promote too.  But that doesn't mean I can't ask my teacher what I need to work on.  If I couldn't ask my teacher what he thinks I need to do to get better, I'd find another teacher.  If I regularly wasn't invited to test, I'd ask him privately what I need to do to move forward.  If he didn't want to answer that, I'd leave.


Asking if you can test or asking when you will test has been frowned upon by some of the members of this forum as disrespectful. You've said before that if a student isn't testing they should be able to ask why they're not testing. That can also be seen as disrespectful depending on how its taken. When you ask why you're not testing it could be seen that against your sensei's better judgement you think you're ready and so you're questioning his decision to not yet let you test even though he's the sensei and he's got the experience and he's the one whose teaching. So perhaps its in how you word it. For instance, if the student were to say, "Why haven't I been told I can test?" how would you see that?


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## JR 137 (Jan 31, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> Asking if you can test or asking when you will test has been frowned upon by some of the members of this forum as disrespectful. You've said before that if a student isn't testing they should be able to ask why they're not testing. That can also be seen as disrespectful depending on how its taken. When you ask why you're not testing it could be seen that against your sensei's better judgement you think you're ready and so you're questioning his decision to not yet let you test even though he's the sensei and he's got the experience and he's the one whose teaching. So perhaps its in how you word it. For instance, if the student were to say, "Why haven't I been told I can test?" how would you see that?


Coming out and asking what you’re not testing is disrespectful IMO for the reasons you state.  But there’s a way to do it with how it’s worded and the delivery.  We can’t have tone of voice here, so that’s not going to come across.

Rather than asking “why am I not testing?” one could ask the requirements for testing, such as time in grade/minimum number of classes.  Sometimes the student may be ready from a syllabus standpoint,  it they haven’t reached that requirement.  I remember about 2 years ago asking myself why I wasn’t invited to test.  I thought I had the minimum number of classes fulfilled, but I didn’t; the requirement jumped from 30 to 60 classes since the last grade, and I was in the low 40s.  It made sense after I saw it written in the syllabus.

One could ask the CI what they need to improve on in order to test, what are the requirements to test, etc.  That’s along the lines of why they’re not testing, but not an accusatory, disrespectful, asking to test, etc. way of going about it.

A student should be able to ask what they need to improve on.  They should be able to ask what they need to do to promote.  There’s a way to do it without challenging the CI.  I’m not sure if anything I write would come across the correct way because there’s no tone, body language nor full context.

I’ve asked my teacher about promoting a few times, and he’s never given me the impression that I asked the wrong way.  The last time I asked him, I remember starting the conversation with “I’m not asking to promote, and I don’t think I’m ready to promote yet...”  This was about a week or so before a scheduled test in the dojo (that I wasn’t invited to test during).  I basically asked him what’s on the syllabus and the time requirements.  I wasn’t quite there yet with minimum classes (but I was pretty close) and I was still somewhat recovering from a 3 month long illness (Lyme disease). He told me he planned on testing me next time (which was 2 months away) because I was still having a difficult time recovering from Lyme and he didn’t want me pushing it too soon.  Had it not been for the Lyme, he said he would’ve asked me to test at that time.  I completely respected that and agreed.  So I guess you could say I was asking why I wasn’t promoting, in a sense, but that’s not really what it was.


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## AlexanderZousky (Jan 31, 2018)

I would always practice and study the moves
When i am preparing for my test, i would always practice with my sensei


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> Asking if you can test or asking when you will test has been frowned upon by some of the members of this forum as disrespectful. You've said before that if a student isn't testing they should be able to ask why they're not testing. That can also be seen as disrespectful depending on how its taken. When you ask why you're not testing it could be seen that against your sensei's better judgement you think you're ready and so you're questioning his decision to not yet let you test even though he's the sensei and he's got the experience and he's the one whose teaching. So perhaps its in how you word it. For instance, if the student were to say, "Why haven't I been told I can test?" how would you see that?


It could be seen that way, but I think it'd take some ego issues for that to happen. If a student thinks they are ready to test but haven't been invited (in programs where that's the progression), then they should ask so they know what to work on. If an instructor gets upset about a question like that (assuming it is posed respectfully), then I have an issue with that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Coming out and asking what you’re not testing is disrespectful IMO for the reasons you state.  But there’s a way to do it with how it’s worded and the delivery.  We can’t have tone of voice here, so that’s not going to come across.
> 
> Rather than asking “why am I not testing?” one could ask the requirements for testing, such as time in grade/minimum number of classes.  Sometimes the student may be ready from a syllabus standpoint,  it they haven’t reached that requirement.  I remember about 2 years ago asking myself why I wasn’t invited to test.  I thought I had the minimum number of classes fulfilled, but I didn’t; the requirement jumped from 30 to 60 classes since the last grade, and I was in the low 40s.  It made sense after I saw it written in the syllabus.
> 
> ...


Something like the difference between:

"Why haven't you tested me yet?"
and 

"What's holding me back from testing?"


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## MA_Student (Feb 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It could be seen that way, but I think it'd take some ego issues for that to happen. If a student thinks they are ready to test but haven't been invited (in programs where that's the progression), then they should ask so they know what to work on. If an instructor gets upset about a question like that (assuming it is posed respectfully), then I have an issue with that.



Pretty much yeah. If I'm paying money to train and I'm not allowed to test but other guys are then I want to know why simple as that and I have a right to know why as well. It's not disrespectful it's asking a question. If I'm taking driving lessons and my driving instructor says they don't want me to take a test yet and I ask why not that's not disrespectful so why should it be in martial arts. 

To much worship goes on in martial arts and people are to scared to talk to their instructors like humans. At the end of the day an instructor is just a regular guy why should I be afraid to ask another man a question


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 4, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Coming out and asking what you’re not testing is disrespectful IMO for the reasons you state.  But there’s a way to do it with how it’s worded and the delivery.  We can’t have tone of voice here, so that’s not going to come across.
> 
> Rather than asking “why am I not testing?” one could ask the requirements for testing, such as time in grade/minimum number of classes.  Sometimes the student may be ready from a syllabus standpoint,  it they haven’t reached that requirement.  I remember about 2 years ago asking myself why I wasn’t invited to test.  I thought I had the minimum number of classes fulfilled, but I didn’t; the requirement jumped from 30 to 60 classes since the last grade, and I was in the low 40s.  It made sense after I saw it written in the syllabus.
> 
> ...



You're right, tone of voice and body language does have much to do with it. However, if its taking me longer than usual to test or promote than I don't see anything wrong with asking or saying something. What do I mean by longer than usual? Lets say it takes me 8 months to get from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu. Now, its been a year and I still haven't gotten from 1st kyu to 1st dan. Considering the time it took to get from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu (8 months) I wouldn't want it to take me proportionally much longer to get from 1st kyu to 1st dan. I can see how it might take a bit longer since 1st dan is a higher rank but not too much longer. If it took me 8 months to get from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu than I would hope to make 1st dan within a year at the most and if a year has gone by I might start asking or saying something. For instance I might say, "I've been 1st kyu for a year now, what do I need to work on to get to 1st dan?" As I said, if its taking me longer than usual I see nothing wrong with asking or saying something.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It could be seen that way, but I think it'd take some ego issues for that to happen. If a student thinks they are ready to test but haven't been invited (in programs where that's the progression), then they should ask so they know what to work on. If an instructor gets upset about a question like that (assuming it is posed respectfully), then I have an issue with that.


Well yes, there should be nothing wrong with a student asking or saying something if its taking them longer than usual to test or promote as I point out in my post # 136


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> You're right, tone of voice and body language does have much to do with it. However, if its taking me longer than usual to test or promote than I don't see anything wrong with asking or saying something. What do I mean by longer than usual? Lets say it takes me 8 months to get from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu. Now, its been a year and I still haven't gotten from 1st kyu to 1st dan. Considering the time it took to get from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu (8 months) I wouldn't want it to take me proportionally much longer to get from 1st kyu to 1st dan. I can see how it might take a bit longer since 1st dan is a higher rank but not too much longer. If it took me 8 months to get from 2nd kyu to 1st kyu than I would hope to make 1st dan within a year at the most and if a year has gone by I might start asking or saying something. For instance I might say, "I've been 1st kyu for a year now, what do I need to work on to get to 1st dan?" As I said, if its taking me longer than usual I see nothing wrong with asking or saying something.


And that's the key - you asked what you needed to work on. If a student came up to me with an attitude of entitlement, I'm unlikely to respond well to their question (that attitude may be the thing that's stopped me from testing them yet). If a student comes up to me wanting to be ready to test - or even genuinely wanting to test and willing to fail - then I'm likely to be much more responsive.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 4, 2018)

MA_Student said:


> Pretty much yeah. If I'm paying money to train and I'm not allowed to test but other guys are then I want to know why simple as that and I have a right to know why as well. It's not disrespectful it's asking a question. If I'm taking driving lessons and my driving instructor says they don't want me to take a test yet and I ask why not that's not disrespectful so why should it be in martial arts.
> 
> To much worship goes on in martial arts and people are to scared to talk to their instructors like humans. At the end of the day an instructor is just a regular guy why should I be afraid to ask another man a question


Probably because the other guys are ready to test and you're not. Now, the way I see it there is nothing wrong with asking why you're not ready. Lets say your front kick isn't good enough. When you ask why you're not ready your instructor should tell you that your front kick needs work and so then you work on your front kick and get it good enough so that you can test the next time.

Now there are some people who don't care about earning rank and if you don't care about earning rank than you wouldn't ask. But for students who do want to earn rank, there is nothing wrong with them asking.


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## Headhunter (Feb 4, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> Probably because the other guys are ready to test and you're not. Now, the way I see it there is nothing wrong with asking why you're not ready. Lets say your front kick isn't good enough. When you ask why you're not ready your instructor should tell you that your front kick needs work and so then you work on your front kick and get it good enough so that you can test the next time.
> 
> Now there are some people who don't care about earning rank and if you don't care about earning rank than you wouldn't ask. But for students who do want to earn rank, there is nothing wrong with them asking.


Exactly. Personally I've never been bothered by rank but if I'm told I'm not testing I want To know why mainly so I know what to work on. Instructors should have no issue answering it and if they do then questions need to be asked.

It happened to me once I was told I couldn't test so I said "okay that's fine but can I ask why please" and the instructor looked surprised and stuttered and stammered a few things out then said he'd explain properly next time. When next time came after class he told me now I can test...funny that


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Exactly. Personally I've never been bothered by rank but if I'm told I'm not testing I want To know why mainly so I know what to work on. Instructors should have no issue answering it and if they do then questions need to be asked.
> 
> It happened to me once I was told I couldn't test so I said "okay that's fine but can I ask why please" and the instructor looked surprised and stuttered and stammered a few things out then said he'd explain properly next time. When next time came after class he told me now I can test...funny that


Yeah, that almost sounds like an instructor who knows he shouldn't just test everyone (should have standards), but doesn't know what that should look like. So he picks someone without a good reason.


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## Headhunter (Feb 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, that almost sounds like an instructor who knows he shouldn't just test everyone (should have standards), but doesn't know what that should look like. So he picks someone without a good reason.


Yeah he's one who liked to say you're never guaranteed to pass and granted yes he didn't pass every single person I saw him fail guys but he also did stop people as well and I didn't say this to him but I wasn't any worse than any guy he was letting test and that next lesson I made sure to show him exactly what I could do to make sure he knew where my highest level was.

My old man used to train with me as well...this is going back about 30 years now but similar thing happened to him he didn't have a great test for his last belt but just passed it and based on that the instructor said at the next time there was a test he was to wait but by then my old man was a billion times better than he was then as he trained his butt off and some of the instructors knew it to and spoke to the main guy and so he said he could turn up and pre test so they could evaluate him at least and turned out he got his belt from that test. The instructor knew he was wrong about my old man but didn't want to admit it


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 14, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Exactly. Personally I've never been bothered by rank but if I'm told I'm not testing I want To know why mainly so I know what to work on. Instructors should have no issue answering it and if they do then questions need to be asked.
> 
> It happened to me once I was told I couldn't test so I said "okay that's fine but can I ask why please" and the instructor looked surprised and stuttered and stammered a few things out then said he'd explain properly next time. When next time came after class he told me now I can test...funny that


That does make sense, where you want to know why you're not testing so you know what to work on. Now what you asked your instructor in my opinion that's a good thing to ask and a good choice of words however, I believe with an instructor such as the one Buka trained or trains under supposedly that would get you a six month suspension in rank advancement. As for when your instructor couldn't come up with an answer as to why you weren't testing and then told you could test after the next class, that does sound weird.


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