# Learning to take strikes



## Gweilo (Feb 21, 2020)

Whilst I am all for learning to absorb strikes, by taking them, but the video in the link is not how its done, the 2 adults (especially the male), is a clear indication of not how to do it, with a child student.
Opinions, and does anyone know these clowns.

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## Tez3 (Feb 21, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> Whilst I am all for learning to absorb strikes, by taking them, but the video in the link is not how its done, the 2 adults (especially the male), is a clear indication of not how to do it, with a child student.
> Opinions, and does anyone know these clowns.
> 
> Log In or Sign Up to View




The video seems to have been removed. Have you got another source?


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## Gweilo (Feb 21, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> The video seems to have been removed. Have you got another source?



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## Gweilo (Feb 21, 2020)

Followed it seems ok to me


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## Gweilo (Feb 21, 2020)

Just checked the youtube channel @kapapacademysg video kenneth's initiation into kapap brotherhood, and cannot find it, but it involved 2 adults, 1 male 1 female, punching the crap out of a kid, with a headguard on, who was about 12. They continually struck him for about 1 mins, mainly head shots, and the male was putting too much into the punches for a boy, when time was called, the lad slumped to the floor.


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## Gweilo (Feb 21, 2020)

Added by @mcdojolife Instagram post Here we go again: 1) Video from @kapapacademysg YouTube channel 2) Their caption “Kenneth’s initiation into the Kapap brotherhood”  3) excerpt - “If you look at mma, how is that any different?” 4) The studio saying they are pursuing legal action against people who are speaking out against the video 5) Teo Yew Chye - Founder of this academy ➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖ Don’t worry we will post a funny martial arts video later but stuff like this is ridiculous to me and the public should know what they are getting into before they join this academy. ➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖ @killcliff @goldbjj - Picuki.com


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## Tez3 (Feb 21, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> Added by @mcdojolife Instagram post Here we go again: 1) Video from @kapapacademysg YouTube channel 2) Their caption “Kenneth’s initiation into the Kapap brotherhood”  3) excerpt - “If you look at mma, how is that any different?” 4) The studio saying they are pursuing legal action against people who are speaking out against the video 5) Teo Yew Chye - Founder of this academy ➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖ Don’t worry we will post a funny martial arts video later but stuff like this is ridiculous to me and the public should know what they are getting into before they join this academy. ➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖ @killcliff @goldbjj - Picuki.com




Good grief, I agree  people should know what is going on there..... and avoid it. 
A friend of mine is doing a lot of research into head strikes and the damage they cause, he's especially interested in head strikes and children, he calls it child abuse. I'll pass it on to him. It's in Singapore so probably not much we can do but he may know someone who can report it.


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## Buka (Feb 21, 2020)

I don't do facebook so I can't see the vid.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 21, 2020)

Buka said:


> I don't do facebook so I can't see the vid.


The Facebook post has been removed, but Gweilo's link from post #6 above works.

Looks highly inappropriate to me.


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## Buka (Feb 21, 2020)

As a police officer I see that as child abuse conveniently disguised as training.

As a Martial Artist that video gave me such a rush to beat those two a-holes within an inch of their worthless, bullying lives.

Man, that tics me off.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 21, 2020)

Just going to be neutral, to be fair to the video makers, the context isnt fully there.   it is written as a intiuation which means it should be a  one off thing, thats all the context i know.        In terms of, the only thing i see it as is a inituatiation tradtion and the person is claimed to be 12(?).  I dont know what country it is, if its a child of the instructor, if its a "confidence" test just captioned as a initiation etc etc.   Consent is also not covered in the video.


In terms of hitting people, the only two/three issues would be: Age,quantity and power.   for quantity, by it being captioned as a inituation tradtion, it seems to be a one off thing they do.     Cant comment on if they got any injuries or severty of them afterwards.     

Also, i wouldnt put it down to "learning to take hits" its more of a toughness test.      Many places do many diffrent things out of tradtion for if somone gets a certain belt, wants to be a instructor etc etc.


By the way *DONT* mark that as support for said actions, its just a neutral analysis of facts.        

Just to reiterate something there, i dont know all the facts here, the only thing going off is,a apaprnt child of unknown age is goign through a 27 second blitz defence.   I dont know about the teacher etc.


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

Rat said:


> Just going to be neutral, to be fair to the video makers, the context isnt fully there.   it is written as a intiuation which means it should be a  one off thing, thats all the context i know.        In terms of, the only thing i see it as is a inituatiation tradtion and the person is claimed to be 12(?).  I dont know what country it is, if its a child of the instructor, if its a "confidence" test just captioned as a initiation etc etc.   Consent is also not covered in the video.
> 
> 
> In terms of hitting people, the only two/three issues would be: Age,quantity and power.   for quantity, by it being captioned as a inituation tradtion, it seems to be a one off thing they do.     Cant comment on if they got any injuries or severty of them afterwards.
> ...



Dude.  Shut up.

You try and come off like some high authority on martial arts.  You know nothing.  You've read some articles.  Articles you don't have the training to fully comprehend.  You've taken some classes and never gotten past a basic level in any martial art.  Normally, it's not too big of a deal, because it's easy to point out the holes in your logic and the flaws in your training.

But now you've crossed the line.  You're trying to apply your basically non-existent experience to judge whether or not something is child abuse.  Experienced martial artists and police officers are correctly identifying this as child abuse, and you're sitting here trying to say it's okay.

This is toxic.  It is incredibly toxic.  It is a poison to the martial arts community.  Parents want to know that their kids are going to be safe in martial arts.  That's the #1 question I see asked by parents is "is it okay for my kid to learn this martial art, or will they get hurt learning it?"  And you're sitting here advocating for a training regimen where the kid could quite easily get a concussion.

Kids are easily pressured into doing things they shouldn't do, or things that are bad for them, because they lack experience and judgment.  This is why age of consent laws exist.  This is why waivers are signed by parents, and not the kids.  If you take a kid who respects you and tell them you're going to beat them so they can prove they're tough - they'll stand there and take the hits, the bruises, the concussion - because they'll want to prove they're tough.  Kids are impressionable and easy to manipulate, which is why so much scrutiny goes into those that take care of kids.  This is why any organization that works with kids needs to do background checks on their employees and volunteers.  It's why martial arts schools have rules about instructors not being alone with a student.

You're coming into this thread with no training in domestic violence, virtually no experience in martial arts training, no experience in medicine or law.  And you're trying to play devil's advocate for what is quite clearly child abuse.  Why?  So you can appear more enlightened than the experts?  This time, you've gone too far.  Your posts here are quite often dangerous, but this is probably the most dangerous one yet.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 21, 2020)

One day a guy walked into my school. He picked up a dumbbell from the ground. He then smashed on his head and said, "This is what I do everyday.". He then challenged me to spar him with punching only (no kick, no throw). After the sparring, he left and I have not seen him since then.

I do think to tough your arm and leg is important.


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> Dude.  Shut up.
> 
> You try and come off like some high authority on martial arts.  You know nothing.  You've read some articles.  Articles you don't have the training to fully comprehend.  You've taken some classes and never gotten past a basic level in any martial art.  Normally, it's not too big of a deal, because it's easy to point out the holes in your logic and the flaws in your training.
> 
> ...



And this is what is wrong with martial arts. Instead of being able to argue the topic or even Mabye self reflect on how your training may present as similar. 

People hear something they don't like and just go off on an emotional rampage.


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

drop bear said:


> And this is what is wrong with martial arts. Instead of being able to argue the topic or even Mabye self reflect on how your training may present as similar.
> 
> People hear something they don't like and just go off on an emotional rampage.



I am not going to apologize for outrage against child abuse and its enablers.  I have no intention of changing my opinion on the subject.

You are also being a massive, *MASSIVE* hypocrite.  Any time a technique or method is discussed that you don't agree with, there is no self-reflection.  You just bash without mercy.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 21, 2020)

Two adults pounding on a kid who is trapped up against a wall. Yeah. That's child abuse, not training.


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## Tez3 (Feb 21, 2020)

drop bear said:


> how your training may present as similar.




We don't allow head shots_ with children_ full stop so no, not similar, not even on the same planet. We don't video them training either, child protection.


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 21, 2020)

Um, not ok. 


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## Headhunter (Feb 21, 2020)

Rat said:


> Just going to be neutral, to be fair to the video makers, the context isnt fully there.   it is written as a intiuation which means it should be a  one off thing, thats all the context i know.        In terms of, the only thing i see it as is a inituatiation tradtion and the person is claimed to be 12(?).  I dont know what country it is, if its a child of the instructor, if its a "confidence" test just captioned as a initiation etc etc.   Consent is also not covered in the video.
> 
> 
> In terms of hitting people, the only two/three issues would be: Age,quantity and power.   for quantity, by it being captioned as a inituation tradtion, it seems to be a one off thing they do.     Cant comment on if they got any injuries or severty of them afterwards.
> ...


doesn't matter if it's a 1 off, a toughness test or consent given. It's wrong plain and simple. It's child abuse a bunch of ego fuelled idiots trying to act tough by beating up a kid and probably manipulating said kid imto believing it's good for him.

there's literally no way to justify scummy actions like that. Not a single one


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## Headhunter (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> I am not going to apologize for outrage against child abuse and its enablers.  I have no intention of changing my opinion on the subject.
> 
> You are also being a massive, *MASSIVE* hypocrite.  Any time a technique or method is discussed that you don't agree with, there is no self-reflection.  You just bash without mercy.


And has to tell us all how great Mma and bjj is


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> I am not going to apologize for outrage against child abuse and its enablers.  I have no intention of changing my opinion on the subject.
> 
> You are also being a massive, *MASSIVE* hypocrite.  Any time a technique or method is discussed that you don't agree with, there is no self-reflection.  You just bash without mercy.



I play the ball though not the man. Which is the difference.

And this emotional outrage rather that just refuting where the claim is wrong. This Iis why there is a lack of critical thinking in martial arts. Which allows instructors with no credibility to rip of unsuspecting students.

I mean Tez has now raised the bar with the comment that no head contact is acceptable for children. 

Which then paints most boxing clubs in the same light as that video. Hell I even took some decent head contact playing football as a kid. So I assume those clubs would have to self reflect on their behavior.

No sparring for children at all?


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> We don't allow head shots_ with children_ full stop so no, not similar, not even on the same planet. We don't video them training either, child protection.



How old is a person considered a child for head contact.


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## Tez3 (Feb 21, 2020)

drop bear said:


> How old is a person considered a child for head contact.


 
16 

Current informed medical opinion is that we should all be careful about how much head contact we have. With our martial arts club the military members have to be cleared by their MO to train as they do for boxing. We also use concussion protocols for fighters, our chief instructor was a combat medic and we have access to MOs any time.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjsports/47/5/259.full.pdf


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I play the ball though not the man. Which is the difference.



I normally do.  In this case I made an exception.  He routinely brings in bad advice to threads like this, and from what I can tell has no intention of taking training under an actual instructor ever again.  He's the author of such ideas as:

Don't use the hook punch because you can hurt yourself using it
Flinches aren't bad, don't worry about getting rid of your flinch
12 year olds can consent to being beaten by adults
He has no training and comes across like he thinks he's an expert.  And when he justifies child abuse along with it, it's just not okay.


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> I normally do.  In this case I made an exception.  He routinely brings in bad advice to threads like this, and from what I can tell has no intention of taking training under an actual instructor ever again.  He's the author of such ideas as:
> 
> Don't use the hook punch because you can hurt yourself using it
> Flinches aren't bad, don't worry about getting rid of your flinch
> ...



A lot of what he said was wrong. But he is not wrong because he is a meanie poopy head. 

I mean we had an adult in class sat out today because he had a concussion. 

Semantically the differences was he was older and he had an opportunity to defend himself. 

Are they really the differences between what makes someone an abuser and just a tough training partner?

Because they are pretty slim differences. 

Do guys and girls make a difference for example?


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> 16
> 
> Current informed medical opinion is that we should all be careful about how much head contact we have. With our martial arts club the military members have to be cleared by their MO to train as they do for boxing. We also use concussion protocols for fighters, our chief instructor was a combat medic and we have access to MOs any time.
> https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjsports/47/5/259.full.pdf



What about contact sports like rugby?


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> I normally do.  In this case I made an exception.  He routinely brings in bad advice to threads like this, and from what I can tell has no intention of taking training under an actual instructor ever again.  He's the author of such ideas as:
> 
> Don't use the hook punch because you can hurt yourself using it
> Flinches aren't bad, don't worry about getting rid of your flinch
> ...



There are not many good boxers who were not competing at 12.

I know kids who have had 30 plus fights.

It is just the path they have to walk to achieve the life they want.

One of our guys from a few years back. Has since discovered girls cars and money.

WMA boxer wins third national title in a row


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

drop bear said:


> There are not many good boxers who were not competing at 12.
> 
> I know kids who have had 30 plus fights.
> 
> ...



There's a big difference between competition, sparring, and training.  Your training should not be standing there while your coach wails on you.  If you think that is good training, then you should probably stop training.


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

drop bear said:


> A lot of what he said was wrong. But he is not wrong because he is a meanie poopy head.



No, he's wrong because he's inexperienced, and has completely baseless knowledge.  He's a meanie poopy head (your words) because he acts like he knows everything and tries to give people advice, most of which is wrong.  

In this particular case, considering what we're talking about is child abuse, he needs a reality check that really he has no actual knowledge of the subject and should probably put in some *real *learning before his advice is Exhibit A in a domestic violence charge.


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> There's a big difference between competition, sparring, and training.  Your training should not be standing there while your coach wails on you.  If you think that is good training, then you should probably stop training.



Ok. What about body punches or leg kicks?

Are they ok to stand there and eat?


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> No, he's wrong because he's inexperienced, and has completely baseless knowledge.  He's a meanie poopy head (your words) because he acts like he knows everything and tries to give people advice, most of which is wrong.
> 
> In this particular case, considering what we're talking about is child abuse, he needs a reality check that really he has no actual knowledge of the subject and should probably put in some *real *learning before his advice is Exhibit A in a domestic violence charge.



The difference between martial arts and abuse or assult is consent pretty much.


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok. What about body punches or leg kicks?
> 
> Are they ok to stand there and eat?



I said "wail on you".  That could be any target.



drop bear said:


> The difference between martial arts and abuse or assult is consent pretty much.



This is unsafe training for any age.  It's particularly egregious in that minors can't consent.  If I had any respect for you left, it's gone after you're trying to defend this abuse.


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> I said "wail on you".  That could be any target.
> 
> 
> 
> This is unsafe training for any age.  It's particularly egregious in that minors can't consent.  If I had any respect for you left, it's gone after you're trying to defend this abuse.



Ok. What about drills.

Hatsumi for example is a notorious drill spaz. Is this an ok platform to hurt people?

I mean they are not fighting back.


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> I said "wail on you".  That could be any target.
> 
> 
> 
> This is unsafe training for any age.  It's particularly egregious in that minors can't consent.  If I had any respect for you left, it's gone after you're trying to defend this abuse.



So this is bad news?


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

drop bear said:


> So this is bad news?



Completely different:

They're not wailing on each other.  Those kicks look like they're at 20% power, the punches at 30%. 
They're training proper technique to absorb the blows, instead of just wailing on each other
They're both adults, and neither feels coerced into that situation.
It's not 2-on-1.
Neither of them is backed against the wall in what would be a TKO in any legit competition.
There's also a risk of concussion in the video in the OP that's not present in this drill.

You're playing devil's advocate, and I mean that literally.  You're trying to help justify child abuse.  Just stop.

If you think what's in the OP is justified, stop training entirely and get yourself some therapy.  If you don't think it was justified, then stop trying to justify child abuse.


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## Gweilo (Feb 22, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok. What about drills.
> 
> Hatsumi for example is a notorious drill spaz. Is this an ok platform to hurt people?
> 
> I mean they are not fighting back.



Everyone in the video of Hatsumi were an adult, and it was a demonstration of the techniques he was teaching in those sessions, it was not an initiation. The point you made about rugby, the training sessions for juniors is very different, when rugby is taught at the beginning phase, it is modified to touch rugby, where a tackle, and impact are reduced to a touch or tap, this has been so across the world since the early 70's. Tackling and impact are taught gradually, and participants are introduced to tackling from the age of 14. The full contact is not in training until the participent is 16. Your logic is flawed.


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## Tez3 (Feb 22, 2020)

drop bear said:


> What about contact sports like rugby?




Exactly the same , we all use the same concussion protocol, players go off if a head injury is suspected, they come back if cleared.
World Rugby Player Welfare - Putting Players First


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## Tez3 (Feb 22, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> Everyone in the video of Hatsumi were an adult, and it was a demonstration of the techniques he was teaching in those sessions, it was not an initiation. The point you made about rugby, the training sessions for juniors is very different, when rugby is taught at the beginning phase, it is modified to touch rugby, where a tackle, and impact are reduced to a touch or tap, this has been so across the world since the early 70's. Tackling and impact are taught gradually, and participants are introduced to tackling from the age of 14. The full contact is not in training until the participent is 16. Your logic is flawed.




DB is arguing because that's what he does, he picks a point that people agree on and will argue the opposite to get a reaction.

Posting up videos of adults training when what we are discussing is children's training is a typical move.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Exactly the same , we all use the same concussion protocol, players go off if a head injury is suspected, they come back if cleared.
> World Rugby Player Welfare - Putting Players First



But head contact is allowed?


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## Tez3 (Feb 22, 2020)

drop bear said:


> But head contact is allowed?




You didn't read Gweilo's post did you? 



Gweilo said:


> The point you made about rugby, the training sessions for juniors is very different, when rugby is taught at the beginning phase, it is modified to touch rugby, where a tackle, and impact are reduced to a touch or tap, this has been so across the world since the early 70's. Tackling and impact are taught gradually, and participants are introduced to tackling from the age of 14. The full contact is not in training until the participent is 16. Your logic is flawed.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2020)

skribs said:


> Completely different:
> 
> They're not wailing on each other.  Those kicks look like they're at 20% power, the punches at 30%.
> They're training proper technique to absorb the blows, instead of just wailing on each other
> ...



I never justified OPs video. I just tried to put it in terms that were not your standard wailing and caterwalling.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> You didn't read Gweilo's post did you?



I just assumed he wasn't telling the truth.


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## Tez3 (Feb 22, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I just assumed he wasn't telling the truth.




Obviously if you look at the video it's in your neck of the woods not ours, plus there's no way of knowing how old that is.

Saying someone is a liar is an interesting way to argue your point. 



drop bear said:


> I never justified OPs video. I just tried to put it in terms that were not your standard wailing and caterwalling.




It's called trolling, not 'putting it a different way'.


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## pdg (Feb 22, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> The point you made about rugby, the training sessions for juniors is very different, when rugby is taught at the beginning phase, it is modified to touch rugby, where a tackle, and impact are reduced to a touch or tap, this has been so across the world since the early 70's. Tackling and impact are taught gradually, and participants are introduced to tackling from the age of 14. The full contact is not in training until the participent is 16. Your logic is flawed.



I started secondary school in 1988, when I was 11.

When we played rugby, either in PE lessons or in interschool competition, a touch didn't count as a tackle. It was a miss.

Touch rugby was something that the girls were told to do - which they routinely ignored and generally played rougher than the boys. It was also used as said, in the beginning, but that beginning was usually a couple of lessons just before the start of the season to brush up on the rules.

If you didn't want to tackle, that was fine - you either went on the track to run or jogged about pretending you couldn't catch very well. And you never applied for the school team.


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## Gweilo (Feb 22, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I just assumed he wasn't telling the truth.



Whilst there was sttempt to tackle, most of your video was pushes and shoulder barges, not full on smash em, your video showed 1 boy a lot larger than the other, obviously stronger, and these boys where in kits, so part of a regulated system.
Tell me, how much rugby training do you have ?, whilst my experience is limited to my school days, school/junior matches are allowed limited amount of contact, as I stated in my earlier post, juniors are introduced to tackling over a period of time, it is a contact sport, so there is going to be some form of contact as students progress albeit limited, and not straight into head contact. It suprises me how often some people are ready to ridicule anyone who quotes or uses a youtube video as reckless, but is willing to use youtube videos to argue there point


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## Gweilo (Feb 22, 2020)

pdg said:


> I started secondary school in 1988, when I was 11.
> 
> When we played rugby, either in PE lessons or in interschool competition, a touch didn't count as a tackle. It was a miss.
> 
> ...



So your point is ??
 That touch rugby was for girls, but you played touch rugby for a couple of lessons at the beginning of each season to brush up on the rules, so your female.
Are you saying you didnt play touch rugby, but you did for a few lessons every year?


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## pdg (Feb 22, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> So your point is ??
> That touch rugby was for girls, but you played touch rugby for a couple of lessons at the beginning of each season to brush up on the rules, so your female.
> Are you saying you didnt play touch rugby, but you did for a few lessons every year?



I'm saying that tackling and full contact was introduced and played from the age of 11, not 14+ or 16+.

Touch wasn't a generally used thing, except for the times where things like rules and positions were being taught. It wasn't something you were restricted to until you reached a certain age, it was a tool used in certain circumstances.

You said:



Gweilo said:


> about rugby, the training sessions for juniors is very different, when rugby is taught at the beginning phase, it is modified to touch rugby, where a tackle, and impact are reduced to a touch or tap, this has been so across the world since the early 70's. Tackling and impact are taught gradually, and participants are introduced to tackling from the age of 14. The full contact is not in training until the participent is 16. Your logic is flawed.



Which is not at all what I experienced.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that 1988 is more recent than the early 70s.


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## pdg (Feb 22, 2020)

Back on track though - what is the location of the training in the OP?


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## Tez3 (Feb 22, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> Whilst there was sttempt to tackle, most of your video was pushes and shoulder barges, not full on smash em, your video showed 1 boy a lot larger than the other, obviously stronger, and these boys where in kits, so part of a regulated system.
> Tell me, how much rugby training do you have ?, whilst my experience is limited to my school days, school/junior matches are allowed limited amount of contact, as I stated in my earlier post, juniors are introduced to tackling over a period of time, it is a contact sport, so there is going to be some form of contact as students progress albeit limited, and not straight into head contact. It suprises me how often some people are ready to ridicule anyone who quotes or uses a youtube video as reckless, but is willing to use youtube videos to argue there point




DB has also missed or ignored the point that we were talking about *head strikes not tackles* but as usual he's brought in something else to prove a non existent point.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> Whilst there was sttempt to tackle, most of your video was pushes and shoulder barges, not full on smash em, your video showed 1 boy a lot larger than the other, obviously stronger, and these boys where in kits, so part of a regulated system.
> Tell me, how much rugby training do you have ?, whilst my experience is limited to my school days, school/junior matches are allowed limited amount of contact, as I stated in my earlier post, juniors are introduced to tackling over a period of time, it is a contact sport, so there is going to be some form of contact as students progress albeit limited, and not straight into head contact. It suprises me how often some people are ready to ridicule anyone who quotes or uses a youtube video as reckless, but is willing to use youtube videos to argue there point



About 5 years playing rugby union.

Played touch rugby as well. But it was in addition to normal rugby. This idea that kids did some no contact rugby instead. Never happened.

Plenty of head contact for children.


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## Gweilo (Feb 22, 2020)

drop bear said:


> About 5 years playing rugby union.
> 
> Played touch rugby as well. But it was in addition to normal rugby. This idea that kids did some no contact rugby instead. Never happened.
> 
> Plenty of head contact for children.



Yeah I can tell by your posts


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> Yeah I can tell by your posts



So is this touch rugby for children a real thing?


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## Gweilo (Feb 22, 2020)

When I started secondry school in 1981, yes it was a real thing, one of my pe teachers was a head coach for a local rugby team, and touch rugby was the introduction to the game, tackling was introduced quite quickly, as was pushing, shoulder barges, and scrums, but it was a gradual introduction.


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## Gweilo (Feb 22, 2020)

I dont know his first name, we had to call him mr Henstritch, he left our school, and went as a full time coach, to a team called London Irish.


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## Gweilo (Feb 22, 2020)

Now let me ask you a question, what are your ma acheivements, are you an insructor, and what do you train or instruct now.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2020)

And so head contact for children is generally bad. But does kind of happen. 

Contact sports like rugby and football accept it as part of the nature of the game. Sparring generally includes head contact. Even grappling can lead to concussions. 

There is a line between exposing a child to risk as development and abusing that child.

Combat sports raise the bar a bit because there is a lot of head contact and it is intentional. 

And unfortunately to manage head contact in a combat sport you need to experience head contact. 

The question is managing development with risk. Is a drill going to make you better vs is a drill going to hurt you. 

So I raised body conditioning and built up gradually you can wail on a body with minimal risk. Where not built up all you create is risk. 

Head striking really should be avoided as much as you can as to achieve a result.  Because the long term effects. So less contact, less time and fighting styles that concentrate on evasion rather than meat grinding are better. 

I don't like the drill of throwing people up against a wall and banging on their cover. But that also would be less head trauma than say a hard round of sparring. Where they can get caught flat footed. 

I also don't like drill spazzes like Hatsumi who take compliant strikes and then use that as an excuse to wail on people.

It is in reality a very tricky subject if you are trying to develop a person who can fight. And definitely a less is more approach is the best approach to head contact.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> Now let me ask you a question, what are your ma acheivements, are you an insructor, and what do you train or instruct now.



No I just train. The people who instruct have significantly better depth to their martial arts being recognized fighters.

Which is why I train with them.


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## Gweilo (Feb 22, 2020)

As per earlier posts, you are ignoring the facts of the op, 2 trained adults pounding an untrained minor, when the minor has little or no skill, you can twist the facts any way you wish, the video I shared is abuse, and if you agree with that, imho, your training and trainer are fundamentally flawed, there is no excuse for so called adults to pound a child to the head,neven if you or your trainer are a world champion.
I know sometimes you like to argue, thats fine, but have a valid point, that does not involve exploitation, you do have valid points, sometimes, but sonetimes you sound like a complete bell end, so I am not suprised you are not an instructor, as I have said before, knowledge is king, a little knowledge is dangerous.
Now I could be childish and put you on ignore, but I beleive eveyone has a point of veiw, wether it fits with my beleifs or not, you are entitled to them, but jeez you need to change your diet.


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## Tez3 (Feb 22, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> As per earlier posts, you are ignoring the facts of the op, 2 trained adults pounding an untrained minor, when the minor has little or no skill, you can twist the facts any way you wish, the video I shared is abuse, and if you agree with that, imho, your training and trainer are fundamentally flawed, there is no excuse for so called adults to pound a child to the head,neven if you or your trainer are a world champion.
> I know sometimes you like to argue, thats fine, but have a valid point, that does not involve exploitation, you do have valid points, sometimes, but sonetimes you sound like a complete bell end, so I am not suprised you are not an instructor, as I have said before, knowledge is king, a little knowledge is dangerous.
> Now I could be childish and put you on ignore, but I beleive eveyone has a point of veiw, wether it fits with my beleifs or not, you are entitled to them, but jeez you need to change your diet.




To be honest, most times he's only there to stop his skeleton falling over.


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## Headhunter (Feb 22, 2020)

pdg said:


> I started secondary school in 1988, when I was 11.
> 
> When we played rugby, either in PE lessons or in interschool competition, a touch didn't count as a tackle. It was a miss.
> 
> ...


P.e teachers aren't necessarily rugby coaches....when I was at school the p.e teachers were 3 male football players, a female hockey player and a female netball player. Not a single one of the p.e staff had ever played or coached rugby. 

What I'm saying is just because they're a p.e teacher it doesn't mean they know how to teach every sport. Our rugby sessions were basically you are on this team here's a ball off you all go. Of course that's completely wrong and damm lucky no one got seriously hurt


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## Tez3 (Feb 22, 2020)

Boxing and the brain

Repetitive impacts key to understanding sports-associated concussions

Sport-Related Traumatic Brain Injury - Translational Research in Traumatic Brain Injury - NCBI Bookshelf

A Neurosurgeon’s Guide to Sports-related Head Injury


Hint...repeated strikes to the head cause brain damage.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> As per earlier posts, you are ignoring the facts of the op, 2 trained adults pounding an untrained minor, when the minor has little or no skill, you can twist the facts any way you wish, the video I shared is abuse, and if you agree with that, imho, your training and trainer are fundamentally flawed, there is no excuse for so called adults to pound a child to the head,neven if you or your trainer are a world champion.
> I know sometimes you like to argue, thats fine, but have a valid point, that does not involve exploitation, you do have valid points, sometimes, but sonetimes you sound like a complete bell end, so I am not suprised you are not an instructor, as I have said before, knowledge is king, a little knowledge is dangerous.
> Now I could be childish and put you on ignore, but I beleive eveyone has a point of veiw, wether it fits with my beleifs or not, you are entitled to them, but jeez you need to change your diet.



Correct I don't think that drill is a good idea because it takes a concept to far. But as far as suggesting no head contact. Or no head contact for children it is a lot trickier.

The difference between your perspective and mine is it does not matter if your martial arts doesn't work. Plain and simple. You don't have to take risks because there are no consequences. So this idea of a child being punched is unnecessary. 

If results did matter then you are constantly treading a fine line between realism and abuse. And it is hard to do. 

In this specific case though it looks over the top. 

You can train so nobody ever needs to risk concussion or a bruise, martial arts doesn't need to be hard or unpleasant. We absolutely train people in that manner.

But you can't prepare someone for a fight in that manner because the ethics changes.

When you are looking down the barrel of someone beating your unprepared child to a pulp suddenly that line between training and abuse becomes harder to define.

To make the training too easy also becomes unethical. As then all you are doing is selling snake oil. And putting an unprepared person in to a situation where they will get hurt.

Any sport you send your child in to subjects them to unnecessary danger. Any contact sports more so. So the ethics of how much to subject your child to becomes really hard to gauge.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Boxing and the brain
> 
> Repetitive impacts key to understanding sports-associated concussions
> 
> ...



Which that video was not an example of.
Let's compare it to say this.






That is more head strikes over a longer period of time.


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## skribs (Feb 22, 2020)

drop bear said:


> That is more head strikes over a longer period of time.



Those head strikes don't have the same power as one from an adult.

I hope you're not allowed around children.


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## dvcochran (Feb 22, 2020)

drop bear said:


> When you are looking down the barrel of someone beating your unprepared child to a pulp suddenly that line between training and abuse becomes harder to define.



You actually feel it is ok to say this? Man oh man. 

Yes, I read the rest of your post and somewhat get what you are saying but this sentence negates any of the mild logic in your next sentence. 

So what do you do with the powder-puffs who need more time that others to get up to speed? Beat them until they leave or toughen up? That is very old school thinking.


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## drop bear (Feb 23, 2020)

skribs said:


> Those head strikes don't have the same power as one from an adult.
> 
> I hope you're not allowed around children.



But it is still risk of head trauma. Especially as the kids are not as braced to take shots. And it went for longer.

And as I said I think that was the wrong way to go.

The problem you have is that violence isn't very nice. Those full contact punches may be what that kid is actually training to stop in real life. Now lying to that kid about how ferocious an attack can be whether it is from inexperience or self interest may seem ok. But in the end you are using that child.


I hope nobody needs to rely on your training.


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## drop bear (Feb 23, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> You actually feel it is ok to say this? Man oh man.
> 
> Yes, I read the rest of your post and somewhat get what you are saying but this sentence negates any of the mild logic in your next sentence.
> 
> So what do you do with the powder-puffs who need more time that others to get up to speed? Beat them until they leave or toughen up? That is very old school thinking.



You give the powder puffs more time or you don't let them fight. People can train at their own pace. 

It is like the choice of a two week self defense course. You don't admit that is not enough time to prepare,  compromise your principles, develop a terrible product lie to the students, take the money and do the course anyway. 

You don't put the person in that position who is not going to benefit from that sort of training.


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Which that video was not an example of.
> Let's compare it to say this.
> 
> 
> ...




Of course you read every one of those reports before you commented.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I play the ball though not the man. Which is the difference.
> 
> And this emotional outrage rather that just refuting where the claim is wrong. This Iis why there is a lack of critical thinking in martial arts. Which allows instructors with no credibility to rip of unsuspecting students.
> 
> ...



My perspective on this is (and also not taking into account laws)   Under 18's get killed by both under 18's and over 18's, if where ever you live is that bad its a issue doing toughness drills  like say take X amount of punishment in X amount of time, would probbly be the least of their problems.  Given most people dont do them every lesson and can introduce diffrent rules eg light contact only, wear a red man suit etc.     Morally spekaing it is only pending on the morales of said parties there, and if both the child and the parent (if they need to consent) consented, then there isnt much of a argument other than "i wouldnt".       Also martial arts practice/training is inhernetly dangerous, there is only so much you can do to mitigate injury.  

Child in above means under 18, at about 15-16 most people let them consent to their own things.     


And as i mentioned earlier, each school has its own tradtions and culture for this sort of thing which is infulenced by where they live and how they grew up etc.   

This is again, probbly the least partisan i have gone on a issue here and looking at it neutrally.  



Tez3 said:


> DB is arguing because that's what he does, he picks a point that people agree on and will argue the opposite to get a reaction.



He is fully allowed to argue, and taking a contary view to prevent a echo chamber is actually quite important, even if its just for the sake of being devils advocate to present a opposition.


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> He is fully allowed to argue, and taking a contary view to prevent a echo chamber is actually quite important, even if its just for the sake of being devils advocate to present a opposition.




Actually though, he's not arguing to present a different scenario or even play the devil's advocate. He has said in the past he likes to 'verbally spar' to wind up people and carry on arguments instead of intelligently debating an issue. He doesn't care about the issues at all, it's just basically trolling. People here present different views all the time, he's the only one that will disagree with all sides just so he can post up, often insulting, posts and attempt to make people bite.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2020)

Just have to but in, as it was listed as a initiation test/ritual, that means its probbly a one off.  So the aclumative damage of brain strikes seems to be a 50/50 point.     without more information for how precisely they do it, i can only go off what a inituation rite is, and thats either by joining a group or a certain sub group in that group.        No age is also listed for the person in question.   Its just presumption based on body.   (i might have missed that one, tag me if anyone knows)

So, if we look at it like, in sparring they will do light contact etc, the aclulamtive effects probbly wont matter as much as it was only a 27 second beat down, he would be allowed to recover and wouldnt take full shots to the head.    It also wasnt undefended shots.      No injury report is given either, it could just be pain.


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## Headhunter (Feb 23, 2020)

skribs said:


> Those head strikes don't have the same power as one from an adult.
> 
> I hope you're not allowed around children.


Yeah he once told me to break an over aggressive 15 year olds arm....


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## Headhunter (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> Just have to but in, as it was listed as a initiation test/ritual, that means its probbly a one off.  So the aclumative damage of brain strikes seems to be a 50/50 point.     without more information for how precisely they do it, i can only go off what a inituation rite is, and thats either by joining a group or a certain sub group in that group.        No age is also listed for the person in question.   Its just presumption based on body.   (i might have missed that one, tag me if anyone knows)
> 
> So, if we look at it like, in sparring they will do light contact etc, the aclulamtive effects probbly wont matter as much as it was only a 27 second beat down, he would be allowed to recover and wouldnt take full shots to the head.    It also wasnt undefended shots.      No injury report is given either, it could just be pain.


Stop you are embarassing yourself


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## pdg (Feb 23, 2020)

pdg said:


> Back on track though - what is the location of the training in the OP?



No?



Based on the links previously, I'm kind of assuming it's in Singapore - any confirmation or otherwise?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> there's literally no way to justify scummy actions like that. Not a single one



I could think of a few, and presented a few.  But i just left it to more based on your own morals and culture etc etc.   what you do with children and what you should subject them to seems to be a individual/cultrual thing.

I am not taking into account laws, for example if the law is listed as "hitting a child is child abuse" then it is child abuse legally speaking.


What i wrote shouldnt be taken as support, i just get the logic of it being apt in some places to put a under 18 through that, as they arent immune to violence.       this is obviously with the presumption it isnt going to cause permennt damage etc etc.    But also not without acknowledging martial arts as being a inhernetly dangerous activity.  Edit: they also were defended hits, i will rewatch just in case i mis saw anything.


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## Headhunter (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> I could think of a few, and presented a few.  But i just left it to more based on your own morals and culture etc etc.   what you do with children and what you should subject them to seems to be a individual/cultrual thing.
> 
> I am not taking into account laws, for example if the law is listed as "hitting a child is child abuse" then it is child abuse legally speaking.
> 
> ...


how would you be able to acknowledge anything about martial arts when you don't even do any martial arts


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> how would you be able to acknowledge anything about martial arts when you don't even do any martial arts





I didn't know that. Why indeed!


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> how would you be able to acknowledge anything about martial arts when you don't even do any martial arts



the only thing about martial arts here is that it was at a "martial arts club/school".   the arguments presented here are primarily about ethics and medicine.

We arent disputing if the child defended the hits correctly or the adults did their strikes correctly etc.


If you want a proper argument on this i will give you one, it just takes two to actually argue.  





pdg said:


> No?
> 
> 
> 
> Based on the links previously, I'm kind of assuming it's in Singapore - any confirmation or otherwise?



I think they were speaking english? that might just be on the merits of the place in question, but i have no idea where.  I would say it would be a english speaking place perhaps not a western one.  Or one with a big english speaking populace thats not in the west.

I would say it was taken in a previous colony of a enlish speaking country or territory.   I will have another scrummage and see what i can find.


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## Headhunter (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> the only thing about martial arts here is that it was at a "martial arts club/school".   the arguments presented here are primarily about ethics and medicine.
> 
> We arent disputing if the child defended the hits correctly or the adults did their strikes correctly etc.
> 
> ...


There's nothing to argue about. This is a scummy thing to do. If you actually got off the couch and got into a gym you'd see this is completely wrong in a martial arts gym.

And if you are the kind of person who defends these actions then I have nothing to say to you


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2020)

It is in Singapore. It even says who they are ..Kapap Singapore.


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## pdg (Feb 23, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> It is in Singapore. It even says who they are ..Kapap Singapore.



That was what my assumption was based upon, but it's not exactly always a safe assumption...

People attach place names to businesses all the time, even though their actual location bears no resemblance.

I mean, there's a "Punhill groceries" a few miles from me, which is quite a large distance from Nepal.

That's one example of the multitude of shops in this area that have a location (or allude to such) in their name - places all over Europe Asia, Africa and South America.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> There's nothing to argue about. This is a scummy thing to do. If you actually got off the couch and got into a gym you'd see this is completely wrong in a martial arts gym.



There are things to argue about.   In your perspective, it is scummy.  thats down to both your culture and personal morals.    To some people as soon as you can hold a weapon you take responsibility for figthing, in a similar way to as soon as you can do any form of manual labour you start working or are expected to.  

It is a neutral argument, i can fully see some situations  where this would in deed be apt and has been apt historically.


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## Gweilo (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> There are things to argue about.   In your perspective, it is scummy.  thats down to both your culture and personal morals.    To some people as soon as you can hold a weapon you take responsibility for figthing, in a similar way to as soon as you can do any form of manual labour you start working or are expected to.
> 
> It is a neutral argument, i can fully see some situations  where this would in deed be apt and has been apt historically.


 
To save you googling anymore, I just found the following link, striking a child was made illegal in Singapore and other eastern countries, unless it is corparal punishment, defined as slapping or canning, some traditional practices of historical beleifs are also still legal, but I doubt anything in the video is not covered by these laws.

Spanking children illegal in 43 countries


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> To save you googling anymore, I just found the following link, striking a child was made illegal in Singapore and other eastern countries, unless it is corparal punishment, defined as slapping or canning, some traditional practices of historical beleifs are also still legal, but I doubt anything in the video is covered by these laws.
> 
> Spanking children illegal in 43 countries



Then this is firmly lodged in a ethical discussion now and not a legal one.  Cheers for that.


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2020)

pdg said:


> That was what my assumption was based upon, but it's not exactly always a safe assumption...
> 
> People attach place names to businesses all the time, even though their actual location bears no resemblance.
> 
> ...




It says in the text underneath that it's the Kapap Academy Singapore, I checked up on their website on their media page they say they have a You Tube channel kapapsg.  https://www.kapapsingapore.com/video-gallery

Go to You Tube and you will find the video from the OP also this one with the same female instructor.


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## pdg (Feb 23, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> To save you googling anymore, I just found the following link, striking a child was made illegal in Singapore and other eastern countries, unless it is corparal punishment, defined as slapping or canning, some traditional practices of historical beleifs are also still legal, but I doubt anything in the video is not covered by these laws.
> 
> Spanking children illegal in 43 countries



That's not at all how I interpret the article.

It says:

"As of today, Singapore and other Asian countries such as Malaysia, Indonesia, China, Japan and Taiwan have *NOT* banned corporal punishment of children, which is defined as spanking, hitting, and caning"

(Caps and bold added by me)

There is nothing at all to suggest any form of striking or hitting a child is illegal there in any way.

There's even a list of the countries where corporal punishment has been outlawed.


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## Gweilo (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> Then this is firmly lodged in a ethical discussion now and not a legal one.  Cheers for that.



Read it properly, there is Nothing in that viseo that could be covered by the the historical beleifs, seeing as Kepap was invented in the 1930's.


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## Gweilo (Feb 23, 2020)

pdg said:


> That's not at all how I interpret the article.
> 
> It says:
> 
> ...



That article was from a while ago try this one

Look back 2019: More child abuse cases probed amid growing awareness


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2020)

Disregarding for a moment the very problematical hitting of a young person, to me as an instructor that isn't accustoming anyone to being hit, it is teaching them to be passive when hit. I would want a student to be able to instinctively defend themselves not just cover up and take it but actively find a way to stop the attack or escape or whatever was needed. 
If you need to accustom someone to being hit, then sparring is enough, being passive should never be an option.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> Read it properly, there is Nothing in that viseo that could be covered by the the historical beleifs, seeing as Kepap was invented in the 1930's.



Im not really having a legal argument anyway.  i jsut meant you posting that made the legal aspect irrelivent.   (aspect would be a better word than argument)

None of us here are really in a position anyway, as its pending what the courts rule if they get charged, and there could be case law and presdients etc that you dont know etc.       None of us have any legistive power in Singapore nor are a judge/jury in it.             I am now going to nope out of that one as its a thin line from me going full political in this regard.


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## skribs (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> Im not really having a legal argument anyway.  i jsut meant you posting that made the legal aspect irrelivent.   (aspect would be a better word than argument)
> 
> None of us here are really in a position anyway, as its pending what the courts rule if they get charged, and there could be case law and presdients etc that you dont know etc.       None of us have any legistive power in Singapore nor are a judge/jury in it.             I am now going to nope out of that one as its a thin line from me going full political in this regard.



Quit trying to appear smarter or more enlightened than everyone else.  You're just an armchair warrior.  In most cases, your ideas are dangerous to the person you're giving advice to.  Now you're playing devil's advocate for child abusers.  If there was ever a time for you to grow up and learn your place, the time is now.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2020)

skribs said:


> Quit trying to appear smarter or more enlightened than everyone else.  You're just an armchair warrior.  In most cases, your ideas are dangerous to the person you're giving advice to.  Now you're playing devil's advocate for child abusers.  If there was ever a time for you to grow up and learn your place, the time is now.



I will humour you again just this once, i am going to take the liberty and ignore anything that isnt relivent to the thread like personal comments etc.

And for staff who might read, i dont know if i will dip into rule break territory so just give me leniency this once.


Unless they have been convicted, they arent child abusers legally speaking.            Morally speaking it is up to debate if said action is abuse or not, i am partaking in said argument for if it can definitively be called abuse, my stance is clearly no.   It cannot be definitvely called abuse.

I can think of a few reasons why having somone do said drill on somone might be useful or a good lesson, one and the leading point in my view on the matter is violence happens to under 18's (hence forth know as children), by both children and adults. You might be in good footing if you can defend yourself getting battered by 2 adults.

My second leading point for it not being definnitivly immoral is, it is subjective and based on your own standards of morality.  There are cultrual norms for how to treat children in each culture and they vary greatly, adding into the inidivudalised nature of morality.

This is preluded by what ever parties that need to consent consented to it and it wont cause adverse life altering/long injuries, and i would say is lawfully allowed.    (i care not for a proper legal argument and thats politics anyway)

An undelrying issue here is, i dont know anything about said school or person, the age of them, if consent was given by all who needs it, all is shown is 2 adults hitting a apparant child for 27 seconds as a form of initiation.

Do you have a rebuttal to the stated points in there?    And this is more than likely going to be a "agree to disagree" subject, you arent generally going to agree with a action that is taboo to you.  

Now, if you want to know my PERSONAL view and argue on that i will gladly post it seperately.   Just let me know.


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## drop bear (Feb 23, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Of course you read every one of those reports before you commented.



Didn't even skim them. I assumed they showed that head trauma is bad for you.

Which I agree with.

Ok. Quickly did skim the reports. Cycling is apparently the real villian in this equation and I couldn't find a difference between head trauma for over 16s and under 16s.


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> I can think of a few reasons why having somone do said drill on somone might be useful or a good lesson, one and the leading point in my view on the matter is violence happens to under 18's (hence forth know as children), by both children and adults. You might be in good footing if you can defend yourself getting battered by 2 adults.




Actually you are wrong again. having someone punch you repeatedly *while you do nothing* is pointless. Any idiot can stand there and be punched. We don't want our students to be idiots, we want people who can defend themselves. Just about everyone and their dog knows that violence happens, you need to stand there and be punched to know that duh.



Rat said:


> My second leading point for it not being definnitivly immoral is, it is subjective and based on your own standards of morality. There are cultrual norms for how to treat children in each culture and they vary greatly, adding into the inidivudalised nature of morality.




And that's the same argument that some use for not stopping female genital mutilation, 'it's cultural, it's their standards' etc etc ad nauseum.


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## skribs (Feb 23, 2020)

@Rat 

Quit being a blowhard.  Especially when you're advocating for child abuse.  This isn't "agree to disagree".  It's a matter of child safety.

You have no idea what constitutes good or bad training, because you refuse to train.  Normally that would be a fact that only hurts you.  Yet you come here and offer training advice, most of which is wrong and will get people hurt.  That's the only reason I don't have you on ignore.  Because the people you advise need to know how wrong you are, and how following your advice might get them injured, killed, or in real legal trouble.  You think you're smart, and so you post like you're an authority, but you know nothing of any real substance in martial arts.

Now you're trying to make excuses for child abusers.  The absolute worst kind of evil.  You're sick in the head, and you need help.  And you need to stop pretending that you're this supreme knowledge holder of martial arts.  Because you're not.  I don't know why so many people on this site put up with you.  Your posts are downright dangerous.  

I'm not going to argue your individual points, because the place they are coming from is so misguided it's not worth my time to pick it apart piece by piece.  I will pick one part:



> all is shown is 2 adults hitting a apparant child for 27 seconds as a form of initiation.



If you don't understand what is wrong with that, you should stop posting.  Because if anyone sees your post and hurts a child because of it, that's on you.  There is no legitimate reason for this kind of training.  The fact that you don't understand that is why you should stop pretending to know things about martial arts.  Go take some classes.  Learn some *actual* martial arts.  Not just what some reporter understands when they write an article, or someone like you understands when they make a wikipedia entry.  Not what you see in kung fu movies and read in history books from historians who have never taken a class.

Go take an actual class.  And not just once a month for three months.  Not just halfway through white belt.  Take a class and stick with it for a few years.  Don't quit unless it's to change to another class.  Learn what techniques work and don't work, and how to make them work.  Learn what training methods work and don't work - not based on your initial opinion, but based on training for years and seeing what benefits those methods bring you.  See what is done in martial arts so they can be learned safely, even though the art is capable of dangerous things.  

Then, and only then, should you start giving people advice.  This advice wouldn't be based on a fantasy that you've created for yourself.  This advice would be based on reality and experience.  You'll be wrong a lot less.  You'll actually give good advice.  But you have to know what you're talking about first.  As for right now, you clearly don't.

This post is another example of you being an armchair warrior, trying to act like you know more than trained martial artists.  You seem to want to prove that you're the smartest person on this forum.  You always have to argue.  You always have to try and prove that everyone else in the thread is wrong about something that only you seem to know.  But without actual experience, how much can you know?

Like I said, I'd have you on ignore, but your posts are too dangerous to be left unrefuted.  I strongly urge you to take some classes so you can learn.  I also strongly urge you to stop pretending to be an expert until you have the training to back up what you say.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Actually you are wrong again. having someone punch you repeatedly *while you do nothing* is pointless. Any idiot can stand there and be punched. We don't want our students to be idiots, we want people who can defend themselves. Just about everyone and their dog knows that violence happens, you need to stand there and be punched to know that duh.



Well, context i missing for this, but its a intitiation, for what ever reason they do it.   I am at this point refusing to judge them on it.         Anyone can indeed stand there and be punched, not everyone can actively block though  (which is what the person did if i recall correctly)   


I am only noting it as a decent drill for when its done for drill reasons, as there is some use in getting roughed up a little.  As a initiation it is usually just a will test or as stated a toguhness one or to see where you stand etc.          

also, if anyone does find a context and a clear reason for why said school does that initiation or details on it, please mention me and share it.


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## skribs (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> Anyone can indeed stand there and be punched, not everyone can actively block though (which is what the person did if i recall correctly)



He didn't.  He took a lot of the blows.

The fact anyone can stand there and be punched is why this is such a bad idea.  Even if it's just for initiation, that's a lot of brain trauma he's enduring for his initiation.


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> I am only noting it as a decent drill for when its done for drill reasons,




Not at all a decent drill as I said. No one should be standing passively while others hit them.


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## skribs (Feb 23, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Not at all a decent drill as I said. No one should be standing passively while others hit them.



It's great for a movie scene.  I can't remember the name of the movie, it was a Thai martial arts film.  The main character was at a bar with his instructor, and his instructor picked a fight with several other guys.  The character then had to go for 3 rounds (called out by his instructor):

Don't get hit
Take all the hits
Hit back and knock them all out
It was a great movie scene.  But that's where this type of drill should stay.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Not at all a decent drill as I said. No one should be standing passively while others hit them.



The one in question in the video being a initiation is probbly for nothing more than to show dedication/rite of passage. In fact it is for nothing more than that.   But if you look into some of the other types, you dont get to break out of being stuck in a corner or on the floor getting beaten all the time, nor strike back.      Actively blocking when its the only thing you can do, doesnt seem passive to me, plus you loose the hopelessness and keep going drive if you turn it into another "dont get here at all costs, or immediately break out" drill.  Train for the worst situation possible sometimes. 


if you dont fundementally think its good, its going to be a agree to disagree situation as i see some use in "beat down drills", and they arent meant to be done often anyway, or quantity scales with intensity of it.    There are a lot of varibles in how to do this sort of type and it depends on what you are training for.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2020)

skribs said:


> It's a matter of child safety.



We do not definitively know the age of said person, nor their relation with anyone there.  We also do not have a medical report post incident or anything like that to show if any long term damage was sustained.



skribs said:


> Because if anyone sees your post and hurts a child because of it, that's on you. There is no legitimate reason for this kind of training.



It isnt, the reason for that is obvious from what i have posted if it has been read and simple logic and commonsense.(that, funnily enough wasnt intended as a insult)     There is and i have posted some of the reasons for it.  


Should i take this as a unwillingness to engage in a argument?   In additon to irrelivnces that have little place here and uncivil behaviour?      I have trimmed away a lot of the irrelevency and uncivil behaviour along with not returning it in kind.

Plus my argument simply boils down to, everyone has their own morals, it is a tradtion and "wacky" tradtions exists, and nobody really knows anything about this to make judgement calls, martial arts are inherently unsafe and if who ever consented needs to, its irrelevent.        If you disagree with any of that ona  fundemental level, then its a "agree to disagree" situation.


edit: i checked the video, he did indeed actively try to block, most of the male shots got into his head, the female ended up doing mainly face shots.  Which were mostly at least near the end blocked or obstructed in some fashion.


I have also jsut thought about something else, what if they thought the helmet provided suffcient concussive protection?


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## Buka (Feb 23, 2020)

Everybody calm down, chill a little. No need for personal attacks and bad manners.


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> Actively blocking when its the only thing you can do, doesnt seem passive to me, plus you loose the hopelessness and keep going drive if you turn it into another "dont get here at all costs, or immediately break out" drill. Train for the worst situation possible sometimes.




You really do talk complete bollocks you know.


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2020)

Buka said:


> Everybody calm down, chill a little. No need for personal attacks and bad manners.




Sometimes one has to take a stand and bad manners is the least we can do. Anyone excusing child abuse is beyond the pale so stating he is talking bollocks, which of course he is, is the least of the problem here.


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## skribs (Feb 23, 2020)

Buka said:


> Everybody calm down, chill a little. No need for personal attacks and bad manners.



This is me trying to be nice, considering the subject at hand.  But enough is enough.



Rat said:


> We do not definitively know the age of said person, nor their relation with anyone there. We also do not have a medical report post incident or anything like that to show if any long term damage was sustained.



If you're going to try to sound smart, know what the research over the last 20 years has said about CTE.  Even non-concussive events cause permanent damage.



Rat said:


> Should i take this as a unwillingness to engage in a argument?



I am unwilling to consider that this isn't child abuse, because it clearly is.  I am unwilling to consider that this is good training, because it clearly isn't.  I am unwilling to listen to you defend this, because you're completely wrong and you're advocating for child abuse.  



> Plus my argument simply boils down to, everyone has their own morals, it is a tradtion and "wacky" tradtions exists, and nobody really knows anything about this to make judgement calls, martial arts are inherently unsafe and if who ever consented needs to, its irrelevent. If you disagree with any of that ona fundemental level, then its a "agree to disagree" situation.



No.  It's abuse.  Your argument simply boils down to fantasy, speculation, and guesses.  There is no "agree to disagree".  Because your position is one that condones child abuse and would have us look the other way for the sake of not offending a culture that abuses children.  I'd much rather not see that kid get CTE and hurt someone's feelings instead.



> edit: i checked the video, he did indeed actively try to block, most of the male shots got into his head, the female ended up doing mainly face shots. Which were mostly at least near the end blocked or obstructed in some fashion.



Try being the operative word.  And you can have that same level of speed and test without the force of the follow-through.  A lot of those shots weren't obstructed.  And those shots landed with quite a bit of force.  The fact you don't know how hard they land or not is because you don't have any actual knowledge of martial arts.  Just a lot of guesses and theories you've never been in class long enough to test.



> I have also jsut thought about something else, what if they thought the helmet provided suffcient concussive protection?



Then they need training.  Research over the last couple of decades has proven that using helmets as an excuse to hit harder results in more concussions.  Again, this is an example of you not knowing anything about how martial arts actually work, and just making a bunch of guesses.  This is why I don't want to engage in an argument with you.  Because you make long-winded posts in which everything is wrong.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  I want to see you actually learn about martial arts.  But if you continue to do what you are doing - just fiddle around with yourself or your buddies in your back yard, read a bunch of articles, and post nonsense here, you're never going to actually learn.  Especially when you are too arrogant to listen to anyone and try to sound like the smartest person on this forum.


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## skribs (Feb 23, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> You really do talk complete bollocks you know.



That's really weird.  I got an alert that you quoted me, but all I see is that you quoted Rat.

I hope MartialTalk isn't getting me confused with him...


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 23, 2020)

Yet you would have lost sight of me stating it is not my actual view and i am just presenting a neutral argument based on the facts presented in the video and story.    Along with me stating the presumption i am taking is, its consentual.


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## skribs (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> Yet you would have lost sight of me stating it is not my actual view and i am just presenting a neutral argument based on the facts presented in the video and story.    Along with me stating the presumption i am taking is, its consentual.



The fact you are even considering a neutral argument is the problem.


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2020)

skribs said:


> That's really weird.  I got an alert that you quoted me, but all I see is that you quoted Rat.
> 
> I hope MartialTalk isn't getting me confused with him...




That would NOT be a good thing!


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> Yet you would have lost sight of me stating it is not my actual view and i am just presenting a neutral argument based on the facts presented in the video and story.    Along with me stating the presumption i am taking is, its consentual.





There is no neutral position on child abuse. One is either against it or one is an enable of those who abuse. By not condemning child abuse you are part of the problem.

_“We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented” – Elie Wiesel_

In your case, playing the neutrality card is the same as saying nothing.



Rat said:


> Along with me stating the presumption i am taking is, its consentual.



This is another part of your problem, this sentence makes no sense whatsoever.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 23, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> This is another part of your problem, this sentence makes no sense whatsoever.


I'm having a lot more trouble parsing his statements this time around, for some reason. But I think I get that sentence. I think he's stating that he's assuming the kid in the video _consented to being beat up and abused._ Which to him makes it okay that said kid was beat up/abused. 

Which I don't get as A: abuse is never okay, often including some sort of manipulation to get the abusee to allow it (which is also not okay even if they all it), and B: a 12 year old can't consent to something like that.


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## Headhunter (Feb 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> Yet you would have lost sight of me stating it is not my actual view and i am just presenting a neutral argument based on the facts presented in the video and story.    Along with me stating the presumption i am taking is, its consentual.


Consent doesn't matter when it's a child...there's a reason children have to get parental permission to sign up to these type of things or go on school trips etc.

why don't you enlighten us with a real opinion then instead of giving us this bs zen master neutral argument because frankly what it looks like right now is you're defending the people beating up a kid. That's what it looks like from a "neutral argument" perspective. That's why people are getting annoyed at you. Because this is obviously not right and yet when people are saying it's not right you're jumping in defending it.


I don't know you I have nothing against you personally I'm sure your a nice guy but you got to think about what you are saying and how you are saying it. There's some things you can look at from both sides. But not this. Show this video to any social services and they will class it as abuse


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> I think he's stating that he's assuming the kid in the video _consented to being beat up and abused._ Which to him makes it okay that said kid was beat up/abused.



That just makes it even worse doesn't it?


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## Buka (Feb 23, 2020)

I tried to watch the OP’s video again but couldn’t get it to work. But I remember it.

To clarify my opinion, if it needs clarification....

I’ve only taught and trained in contact Martial Arts. All the kids I’ve trained were trained in contact Martial Arts. There was no such thing as stopping a punch an an inch from the face and having it considered any kind of scoring technique, it was considered a miss.

But there are safe ways to do this. What I remember from the OP’s video was not what I consider safe, proper or helpful training.

I’m wondering about the two folks punching that kid. I’m wondering how beneficial they would find it if I set them up with the same opportunity - having somebody twice their weight and five times their skill level smacking the crap out of them while against a wall.

Sure would like to interview them afterwards to get their thoughts.


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## drop bear (Feb 24, 2020)

Buka said:


> I tried to watch the OP’s video again but couldn’t get it to work. But I remember it.
> 
> To clarify my opinion, if it needs clarification....
> 
> ...



Added by @mcdojolife Instagram post Here we go again: 1) Video from @kapapacademysg YouTube channel 2) Their caption “Kenneth’s initiation into the Kapap brotherhood”  3) excerpt - “If you look at mma, how is that any different?” 4) The studio saying they are pursuing legal action against people who are speaking out against the video 5) Teo Yew Chye - Founder of this academy ➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖ Don’t worry we will post a funny martial arts video later but stuff like this is ridiculous to me and the public should know what they are getting into before they join this academy. ➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖ @killcliff @goldbjj - Picuki.com


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## dvcochran (Feb 24, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Added by @mcdojolife Instagram post Here we go again: 1) Video from @kapapacademysg YouTube channel 2) Their caption “Kenneth’s initiation into the Kapap brotherhood”  3) excerpt - “If you look at mma, how is that any different?” 4) The studio saying they are pursuing legal action against people who are speaking out against the video 5) Teo Yew Chye - Founder of this academy ➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖ Don’t worry we will post a funny martial arts video later but stuff like this is ridiculous to me and the public should know what they are getting into before they join this academy. ➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖ @killcliff @goldbjj - Picuki.com



This is one of a Great many videos that were stopped too soon. I would love to see more of the before and after of this encounter. Are there precursors that would better explain this? It this even a 'child'? It looked like all three were of Asian decent to me. Are there cultural things at play we do not understand? Is this out and out hazing? 
At face value, that is a very bad way to train. Period.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 24, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Which I don't get as A: abuse is never okay, often including some sort of manipulation to get the abusee to allow it (which is also not okay even if they all it), and B: a 12 year old can't consent to something like that.



The presumption in my presented argument was consent was given, by who ever needs to give it.   (and i have wrote this before)

Diffrence in view for what you can and cant consent to.    In my view, you can consent to pretty much anything irrelivent for how apprantly destructive it is, the medical concerns are only a factor in if the person consents or not.         Manipulation wasnt factored in, if it was done it could lead to a diffrent view.

Too much is left out to really come to a clear conclusion as above mentioned, on if there was any manipulation, consent was given or not etc.   


Just because it seems nessisary to post it now, my personal view and not taking a devils advocacy view on it is: If the parties that needed to consent, consented and it was lawful, then im fine with it. The medical ability of the person to do it is a factor for if consent should be given or not, as martial arts are inhernetly dangerous. But its ultimately down to the parent(s) and then child.
An example i can give is, if a childs parent didnt give consent to spar or explicity denied them from sparring (and they arent of age to give it lawfully speaking) and the instructor had them sparring, i would disagree with said action.  As its just assualt, like wise if i didnt want to spar gave no indication of getting prepared to do it and somone walked over and kicked me in the shin, it would be assualt.

Fundementally speaking, no one is making you do it, and you are in charge for looking after yourself, viewpoint would change if it was forced. (as thats assualt pretty much everywhere)


6


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## Tez3 (Feb 24, 2020)

Rat said:


> As its just assualt, like wise if i didnt want to spar gave no indication of getting prepared to do it and somone walked over and kicked me in the shin, it would be assualt.



Not so much assault as justified for supporting child abuse.


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## skribs (Feb 24, 2020)

@Rat as you keep trying to argue this, you keep digging a bigger and bigger hole.  People have pointed out several times that what you're doing is enabling child abuse.  At first, we can chalk that up to your ignorance.  Now that it has been pointed out, and you can continue to do so, I can only assume you are purposefully enabling child abuse.  Just stop.  You're embarrassing yourself.


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## wab25 (Feb 24, 2020)

Watching the video of the kid getting beat up, reminded me of Judo. In Judo training, there are a lot of throws. Students are taught to fall and how to throw. The throws used and the speed used for the throws, matches the ability of the student. In most case, when the instructor throws the student, it is the safest falls the student has, as the instructor has the greatest control of the throw. The results here are that the students learn to take the throws and falls safely.

Unfortunately, Judo has an issue with certain instructors punishing their students with throws. They are throwing their students very hard, landing them on their heads, even choking some out first and then throwing them. The results here are students getting concussions, brain and spine injuries and death.

Concerning the video... there is a proper way to train students to take shots, to block shots, to deal with multiple attackers and to deal with being backed up to a wall. However, what that video showed was not any sort of proper way to do that. What the video showed was more like those Judo instructors concussing and killing their students with throws. There is no place for training of the sort shown in that video. I am sure that that particular art, is a fine art and has some fine instructors... those in the video were not them, and in my opinion, did that whole art a major disservice with that type of training. And you shouldn't need any training experience to see that video for the abuse that it was.


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## drop bear (Feb 24, 2020)

So children who spar/compete is also child abuse as they cannot consent.

Probably in the same ethical realm as dog fighting.

I assume we are making the distinction that what we do as part of training is ok because we do it.


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## Tez3 (Feb 24, 2020)

drop bear said:


> So children who spar/compete is also child abuse as they cannot consent.




We always ask the children if they want to spar and they are well aware of what sparring is. They don't have to, no one makes them or makes them feel bad if they don't. We control the sparring too, no head shots.


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## Buka (Feb 24, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Added by @mcdojolife Instagram post Here we go again: 1) Video from @kapapacademysg YouTube channel 2) Their caption “Kenneth’s initiation into the Kapap brotherhood”  3) excerpt - “If you look at mma, how is that any different?” 4) The studio saying they are pursuing legal action against people who are speaking out against the video 5) Teo Yew Chye - Founder of this academy ➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖ Don’t worry we will post a funny martial arts video later but stuff like this is ridiculous to me and the public should know what they are getting into before they join this academy. ➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖➖ @killcliff @goldbjj - Picuki.com



Thanks, DB.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 24, 2020)

Buka said:


> I tried to watch the OP’s video again but couldn’t get it to work. But I remember it.
> 
> To clarify my opinion, if it needs clarification....
> 
> ...


You hit the nail on the head IMO. It's fine to train people and let them get punched in the face. It's even fine to have someone against a wall while having someone else throw punches that the person has to block/avoid and counter. Even with teens (not sure I'd do it younger personally).

The issue is when that person is two instructors that are bigger and likely much stronger going full throttle against someone who either doesn't know enough to know how to block/avoid/counter, or was told not to do so. That's what is happening here, and why it's an issue.


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## O'Malley (Feb 25, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> You hit the nail on the head IMO.



So did the people in the video.


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## drop bear (Feb 25, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> You hit the nail on the head IMO. It's fine to train people and let them get punched in the face. It's even fine to have someone against a wall while having someone else throw punches that the person has to block/avoid and counter. Even with teens (not sure I'd do it younger personally).
> 
> The issue is when that person is two instructors that are bigger and likely much stronger going full throttle against someone who either doesn't know enough to know how to block/avoid/counter, or was told not to do so. That's what is happening here, and why it's an issue.



So wait. That would  make this not the terrible child abusing comment that people have been screaming about for the last 20 pages. 

"In terms of hitting people, the only two/three issues would be: Age,quantity and power. for quantity, by it being captioned as a inituation tradtion, it seems to be a one off thing they do. Cant comment on if they got any injuries or severty of them afterwards."

And why people should read and understand posts before they turn the social justice warrior up to 11.


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## Buka (Feb 26, 2020)

I've had a lot of students over the years, can't even guesstimate the number. The first time they sparred, any kind of sparring, they sparred with me. Every single one of them. Including the kids, especially the kids. NONE of them had to, but we always made sparring the most fun thing anyone in the dojo ever did.

And they all sparred contact. Controlled contact. Learning control was paramount in our system, as was contact. And to me, to what we do, "control" isn't just a matter of safety, control is one of the keys to learning how to really hit with power. Or not.

But I still stand with my opinion of that OP video. And I still would like to get one of those instructors in that video against a wall. Or have them get me against the wall. Just for sheets and giggles.


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## wab25 (Feb 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> And I still would like to get one of those instructors in that video against a wall. Or have them get me against the wall. Just for sheets and giggles.


If you ever do manage to arrange that, will you be so kind as to post a video of it? You know... for the giggles


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## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2020)

drop bear said:


> people have been screaming about for the last 20 pages.





drop bear said:


> And why people should read and understand posts before they turn the social justice warrior up to 11.






That you think people have been screaming says more about you than the other posters. I'm not sure how you cope when people are actually screaming.

I assume you think you are the only one to understand posts, even above those writing the posts?


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> That you think people have been screaming says more about you than the other posters. I'm not sure how you cope when people are actually screaming.
> 
> I assume you think you are the only one to understand posts, even above those writing the posts?



The post itself was pretty clear. You just read what you wanted to read as opposed to what was written. 

Which is you are right and any other stance is child abuse. 

The issue is the goal posts can be moved around pretty easily in this discussion. 

So for example say I suggest head contact for under 17s is child abuse. 

And some sort of social justice rant attached.  With exactly the same arguments and links to cte exposure.

We have drawn our line in the sand based on nothing other than defending our own methods. 

And the tragic part is that every just assumed it is a universal line. Which is incredibly arrogant.


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2020)

Oh and Danaher is anti teaching submissions to under 12s

Danaher: Kids Under 12 Should Not Be Taught Submissions


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## skribs (Feb 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> I've had a lot of students over the years, can't even guesstimate the number. The first time they sparred, any kind of sparring, they sparred with me. Every single one of them.



At my dojang, we do non-contact sparring for white and yellow belts.  We only give them sparring gear at purple belt.  I don't know who the rule is more for:

The white belts who have no coordination on how to kick and it would be entirely unfair to put them into a contact situation.  They're more likely to hurt their toes or your knees or end up falling over than to get any meaningful sparring.
The white belts who figure out how to kick very quick, but how to properly aim and control the power are two separate things.  They're more likely to hit someone too hard or kick someone in the face (no head contact until black belt).
Students usually spend at least 4-8 months doing non-contact sparring before they get their sparring gear.  Then we usually do partner drills.

It's rare that a student needs an instructor to do non-contact sparring with them (aside from an odd number of people in class).  They're usually the 4-year-olds that are still learning how to follow commands that will get matched up with an instructor and a target.  Those students may take over a year (or even longer) to get to purple belt, and by the time they get they're sparring gear they've learned how it works.


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## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Which is you are right and any other stance is child abuse.




Actually no, quite specifically the video in the OP showed a young person being hit by two adults and not defending. The young person was clearly a child. That's child abuse. it's also poor training.
If you are what you train as the saying goes what are you if you stand there and passively get hit?



drop bear said:


> So for example say I suggest head contact for under 17s is child abuse.
> 
> And some sort of social justice rant attached. With exactly the same arguments and links to cte exposure.




Who exactly are you accusing of this 'social justice rant', I see strongly held opinions, yours included, I don't see rants or screaming. I see people who feel the video in the OP is child abuse, as the child wasn't defending himself or sparring it is hard to defend what is being done to him and that is the operative phrase..._what is done to him._
Discussions about what age should sparring start, full or soft contact head shots or not etc are interesting opinions but not pertinent to the OP's video.




drop bear said:


> We have drawn our line in the sand based on nothing other than defending our own methods.




Or we draw the line according to the laws in our respective countries as well as drawing the line accorded to informed scientific research. I think in your arrogance you believe that only you are correct or are just trying to wind people up.


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## Gweilo (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> I don't think taking strikes is a skill, if you want to spar of compete then first prepare your mind to adjust to light strikes with full protective gear, only if your opponent lands a strike, then over time gradually increase to medium contact (if that is what you want),. Body conditioning will make you more ressilant, I don't mean iron body training, there are other ways.



Hello Claudiaus


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## Gweilo (Mar 14, 2020)

Having read the posts here, it is alarming the thought that with some of the comments, there sre some that should clearly not train children.
It does not matter if the child gives consent, the Adult/instructors have a duty of care, its their responsibility to train effectivley and safely, and not doing so is an abuse of their authority. I have trained, and done LIGHT contact with children, their ability to have no real fear, or an inaccurate assumption of what they are capable of, is obvious to an intellegant human adult.


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## dvcochran (Mar 15, 2020)

drop bear said:


> So children who spar/compete is also child abuse as they cannot consent.
> 
> Probably in the same ethical realm as dog fighting.
> 
> I assume we are making the distinction that what we do as part of training is ok because we do it.



I hope it is true that the kid in the video had to consent to the pummeling but I do not see that as apples to apples when compared to a tournament. There are plethora of rules and exponentially more people viewing the tournament event. In almost all cases it simply would not be as intense or injury prone.

There are a ton of questions about the video I agree. The biggest one for me is whether that is really a kid or a smaller framed adult. To me, there is value in it. It is just hard for most people to watch.


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> To me, there is value in it. It is just hard for most people to watch.




I don't find it hard to watch I find it annoying that someone thinks that's a valid training technique. People like to parrot that you are what you train, it's certainly true to a large extent though. If you only ever spar just touching lightly then that's how you will react when you actually need to punch/kick hard. If you only ever punch and kick into air how on earth will you react when you are punched with the need to punch back and likewise if you do not defend yourself when someone is hitting you will not react quickly enough when you need to defend yourself. It's a quite pointless exercise, you're only teaching the person to be still while you punch them in the head which is only a good thing if you plan on doing to them a lot, saves chasing them around the dojo. It you want them to be able to fight/defend themselves then teach them to at the very least duck and dive, block and punch back.


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## dvcochran (Mar 15, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I don't find it hard to watch I find it annoying that someone thinks that's a valid training technique. People like to parrot that you are what you train, it's certainly true to a large extent though. If you only ever spar just touching lightly then that's how you will react when you actually need to punch/kick hard. If you only ever punch and kick into air how on earth will you react when you are punched with the need to punch back and likewise if you do not defend yourself when someone is hitting you will not react quickly enough when you need to defend yourself. It's a quite pointless exercise, you're only teaching the person to be still while you punch them in the head which is only a good thing if you plan on doing to them a lot, saves chasing them around the dojo. It you want them to be able to fight/defend themselves then teach them to at the very least duck and dive, block and punch back.



I don't think you understand the purpose of the exercise at all. It is a test of endurance, pain threshold, and finding your willingness to dig deep. We had similar drills in my Olympic training and I was not the only one doing it.

This will never be seen/found in people who train for the average level of MA or fitness. It certainly is not for everyone, I would say only for a select few. 

I agree with what you say but it all lies in the median. Not where this guy was training. Do I condone it? Like I said, it that was a kid certainly now. If it is a consensual conditioning exercise I do not have trouble with it.


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I don't think you understand the purpose of the exercise at all. It is a test of endurance, pain threshold, and finding your willingness to dig deep.




Rubbish, there's plenty of ways to test all of those other than standing and getting your head punched. In fact standing there getting your head punched is the height of stupidity. I can tell you categorically that my martial arts students would howl with laughter if I suggested they stand there while being punched and trust me these are people who know more about endurance, pain threshold and digging deep than most people.
Going around an assault course, yomping across the Falklands Islands to a fight, patrolling in Afghan, going for Selection, are all tests of the above not standing there like a mark one idiot.



dvcochran said:


> This will never be seen/found in people who train for the average level of MA or fitness. It certainly is not for everyone, I would say only for a select few.




Oh there's a lot of us who all that can be found in, not all martial artists either. Congratulations on Olympic training but you'll find there's many and I can think of a couple on here whose training has been even more stringent.


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## Gweilo (Mar 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I don't think you understand the purpose of the exercise at all. It is a test of endurance, pain threshold, and finding your willingness to dig deep. We had similar drills in my Olympic training and I was not the only one doing it.
> 
> This will never be seen/found in people who train for the average level of MA or fitness. It certainly is not for everyone, I would say only for a select few.
> 
> I agree with what you say but it all lies in the median. Not where this guy was training. Do I condone it? Like I said, it that was a kid certainly now. If it is a consensual conditioning exercise I do not have trouble with it.



With all due respect, this was not a training, drill or exercise, it was a first day initiation, I agree with teaching students to deal with strikes, be it blocking, parrying or absorbing, but not as an initiation, before any training. Or an initiation with little skill, which is quite evident. I agree, nowdays some kids are pussies, and need to learn, but there is a time and a place, yes they need to be shown, they can do more be more, but I dont think taking a beating, when they have no obvious skill, is poor.


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> With all due respect, this was not a training, drill or exercise, it was a first day initiation, I agree with teaching students to deal with strikes, be it blocking, parrying or absorbing, but not as an initiation, before any training. Or an initiation with little skill, which is quite evident. I agree, nowdays some kids are pussies, and need to learn, but there is a time and a place, yes they need to be shown, they can do more be more, but I dont think taking a beating, when they have no obvious skill, is poor.



 Exactly. 
The purpose of initiations is to enable bullies to hurt others with the approval of those who think an initiation is some sort of rite of passage and therefore a 'good thing'.


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I hope it is true that the kid in the video had to consent to the pummeling but I do not see that as apples to apples when compared to a tournament. There are plethora of rules and exponentially more people viewing the tournament event. In almost all cases it simply would not be as intense or injury prone.
> 
> There are a ton of questions about the video I agree. The biggest one for me is whether that is really a kid or a smaller framed adult. To me, there is value in it. It is just hard for most people to watch.



No. It really is Apple's to Apple's. It is just a concept that tastes bad so people rejected it. 

Punching people is ok. So long as all these personal conditions are met. That they can fight back. Or that they are over 16 or if it is not to the head or a whole bunch of conditions that we have pulled out of thin air basically. 

I mean a 15 year old you can't punch but a 16 year old you can? So therefore moral high ground?

It is rationalisation at its worst.


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Exactly.
> The purpose of initiations is to enable bullies to hurt others with the approval of those who think an initiation is some sort of rite of passage and therefore a 'good thing'.



Rubbish.


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Rubbish.



Hardly an 'initiation', it's a 100 man kumite basically.


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## dvcochran (Mar 15, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Punching people is ok. So long as all these personal conditions are met. That they can fight back.


The kid could not punch back. How in the world is that apples to apples to any tournament? Nothing at all like any tournament/match I have ever been in, including PKA back in the 80's/90's. 
I have to call BS on this one.


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## dvcochran (Mar 15, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> With all due respect, this was not a training, drill or exercise, it was a first day initiation, I agree with teaching students to deal with strikes, be it blocking, parrying or absorbing, but not as an initiation, before any training. Or an initiation with little skill, which is quite evident. I agree, nowdays some kids are pussies, and need to learn, but there is a time and a place, yes they need to be shown, they can do more be more, but I dont think taking a beating, when they have no obvious skill, is poor.


I agree. But I do not live wherever this took place and fully understand social conventions are very different in other places. I do not like it at all but I cannot judge until I Fully know the story. 
As far as initiations:
in·i·ti·a·tion
/iˌniSHēˈāSH(ə)n/
_noun_
noun: *initiation*; plural noun: *initiations*

1.
the action of admitting someone into a secret or obscure society or group, typically with a ritual.
"rituals of initiation"


the action of beginning something.
By definition, it could easily be taken out of context.


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> By definition, it could easily be taken out of context.



Yep two adults bashing up a young person who is not hitting back can always be taken out of context. 

I mean it's character building, right, to stand there and be beaten up.


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Hardly an 'initiation', it's a 100 man kumite basically.



Yeah. Just an excuse to bully one guy when he is tired. Dressed up like a rite of passage.


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> The kid could not punch back. How in the world is that apples to apples to any tournament? Nothing at all like any tournament/match I have ever been in, including PKA back in the 80's/90's.
> I have to call BS on this one.



It is safer not to hit back.

That is the whole point of covering up.





I mean ok. Instead of that what if they just put him against the two adults?

Then that would be ok right?


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## dvcochran (Mar 15, 2020)

drop bear said:


> It is safer not to hit back.
> 
> That is the whole point of covering up.
> 
> ...


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## Gweilo (Mar 16, 2020)

drop bear said:


> It is safer not to hit back.
> 
> That is the whole point of covering up.
> 
> ...



The problem with your mentality on this issue is, you are training adolescents the same as adults, The rational part of a teen's *brain* isn't *fully developed* and won't be until age 25 or so. In fact, recent research has found that adult and teen *brains* work differently. Adults think with the prefrontal cortex, the *brain's* rational part. ... Teens process information with the amygdala.
 So whilst I agree, they need to deal with strikes, and the fears that are associated with strikes, it needs to be gradual, not in at the deepend. Whilst I understand this incident took place in a part of the world, that does not have the capacity to understand this logic, or indeed hide behind tradition, to justify child abuse, is all the more reason to expose such things.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 16, 2020)

drop bear said:


> No. It really is Apple's to Apple's. It is just a concept that tastes bad so people rejected it.
> 
> Punching people is ok. So long as all these personal conditions are met. That they can fight back. Or that they are over 16 or if it is not to the head or a whole bunch of conditions that we have pulled out of thin air basically.
> 
> ...


Not really. I agree with the distinction between a 15 year old and 16 year old. But training someone to fight back is very different than training someone to take abuse. And it's not just a moral high ground, there is a distinct difference between the two. Which is what they are doing in the video that started this discussion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 16, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> So did the people in the video.


That’s dark, right there.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 16, 2020)

Buka said:


> I've had a lot of students over the years, can't even guesstimate the number. The first time they sparred, any kind of sparring, they sparred with me. Every single one of them. Including the kids, especially the kids. NONE of them had to, but we always made sparring the most fun thing anyone in the dojo ever did.
> 
> And they all sparred contact. Controlled contact. Learning control was paramount in our system, as was contact. And to me, to what we do, "control" isn't just a matter of safety, control is one of the keys to learning how to really hit with power. Or not.
> 
> But I still stand with my opinion of that OP video. And I still would like to get one of those instructors in that video against a wall. Or have them get me against the wall. Just for sheets and giggles.


Agreed. Everyone I teach gets sparring very early, starting with me. And it starts with contact the very first time - light first, then the option of going harder as they progress.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 16, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Exactly.
> The purpose of initiations is to enable bullies to hurt others with the approval of those who think an initiation is some sort of rite of passage and therefore a 'good thing'.


Some initiations, sure. Not all.


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## Tez3 (Mar 16, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Some initiations, sure. Not all.




All the ones I've ever investigated were though. There's a reason they are illegal in the military.


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## dvcochran (Mar 16, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> The problem with your mentality on this issue is, you are training adolescents the same as adults, The rational part of a teen's *brain* isn't *fully developed* and won't be until age 25 or so. In fact, recent research has found that adult and teen *brains* work differently. Adults think with the prefrontal cortex, the *brain's* rational part. ... Teens process information with the amygdala.
> So whilst I agree, they need to deal with strikes, and the fears that are associated with strikes, it needs to be gradual, not in at the deepend. Whilst I understand this incident took place in a part of the world, that does not have the capacity to understand this logic, or indeed hide behind tradition, to justify child abuse, is all the more reason to expose such things.


So, it is ok to train adults in the manner in you opinion?
To be fair, some here on the forum have argued what constitutes abuse. It can be surmised that it is different for every culture. Even the meaning of a given word is very different from location to location. 
Another vein to consider; how do we know this person (kid?) has not been training for years and this is in essence a 'graduation' ? To see if one can cut the next level of training?
I still agree it is hard to look at but there are just too many unknowns for me to make a hard opinion.


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## Gweilo (Mar 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> So, it is ok to train adults in the manner in you opinion?
> To be fair, some here on the forum have argued what constitutes abuse. It can be surmised that it is different for every culture. Even the meaning of a given word is very different from location to location.
> Another vein to consider; how do we know this person (kid?) has not been training for years and this is in essence a 'graduation' ? To see if one can cut the next level of training?
> I still agree it is hard to look at but there are just too many unknowns for me to make a hard opinion.



The reason we know its not a graduation, is the title of the video.
Kenneths innitiation into the kepap brotherhood. Secondly the owner of said gym, has taken the video down from youtube, and his website, and threatened to beat/ban/sue anyone that talks bad about it, I did leave my email address and called him something that ryhmes with runt, but as of yet not heard anything.


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## Tez3 (Mar 16, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> The reason we know its not a graduation, is the title of the video.
> Kenneths innitiation into the kepap brotherhood. Secondly the owner of said gym, has taken the video down from youtube, and his website, and threatened to beat/ban/sue anyone that talks bad about it, I did leave my email address and called him something that ryhmes with runt, but as of yet not heard anything.




I quite like twunt, a nice mixture of insults.

I agree totally with you, sometimes despite the culture, despite what people think about 'respecting' other's traditions, wrong is wrong and there's actually no arguing with it. I've actually heard people try to justify allowing certain cultures to practice FGM, using the arguments as given by DVCochran, but wrong is wrong and abuse is abuse, there are no ifs and buts.


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## geezer (Mar 16, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> All the ones I've ever investigated were though. There's a reason they are illegal in the military.



Tez, I think that for many of us  there's a huge difference between the broader term _initiation_ and the term _hazing_ which is widely used (at least here in the States) for a physically or mentally abusive initiation ritual. We often use the term initiation to describe a variety of rites of passage or induction. They may be legitimately grueling as any difficult test may be, or they may be purely ceremonial. _Hazing,_ on the other hand, is universally condemned nowdays.

Sometimes what is abusive can be a _matter of perspective..._ 

As a high school teacher I have had to attend graduation ceremonies every May for the last 25 years. Some people love them. But it's getting to the point that I'd rather get punched in the face and be done with it than have to sit through another endless batch of commencement addresses.


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## Tez3 (Mar 16, 2020)

geezer said:


> Sometimes what is abusive can be a _matter of perspective..._




Sometimes though it's as obvious as the nose on your face. The video in the OP is obviously wrong for a couple of reasons, the youth of the person being hit and the fact that someone thinks it's fine to actually just keep punching someone who isn't defending themselves. As an MMA ref I would stop a fight if one of the fighters was not intelligently defending themselves. No one should be thinking punching someone who cannot or even will not defend themselves is right.

I've never seen or heard of an initiation that was designed to somehow not abuse or at the very least humiliate the person undergoing it. At best it's pointless, at worse it's abuse.


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## geezer (Mar 16, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I've never seen or heard of an *initiation* that was designed to somehow not abuse or at the very least humiliate the person undergoing it. At best it's pointless, at worse it's abuse.



Baptism, confirmation in the church (COE or Catholic), a Bar Mitzvah, swearing an oath of loyalty to the armed services or for citizenship in a country??? These are all examples of rites of initiation and/or passage, and none are abusive. Clearly you are refering to initiatory _hazing. _That is something _different._


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## drop bear (Mar 16, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Not really. I agree with the distinction between a 15 year old and 16 year old. But training someone to fight back is very different than training someone to take abuse. And it's not just a moral high ground, there is a distinct difference between the two. Which is what they are doing in the video that started this discussion.



Training which to a degree we all do. 

I am not a neurologist or a behavioral specialist. What makes my training more justified than theirs?


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2020)

geezer said:


> a Bar Mitzvah,



Absolutely not an initiation, it is a celebration of becoming someone who follows the Commandments, The obligations and responsibilities become theirs whether there is a formal celebration or not so is not an initiation merely a celebration if one wishes to have one. The ceremony, which is a fairly new one, does not make one a bar mitzvah, it just marks the time when one becomes a “son/daughter of the commandments.” The real meaning of the phrase is not “son or daughter of the commandments” but “_one of _the commandments” in the sense of “one who is responsible for performing the commandments”.

An oath of loyalty/allegiance is just that.... an oath.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Absolutely not an initiation, it is a celebration of becoming someone who follows the Commandments, The obligations and responsibilities become theirs whether there is a formal celebration or not so is not an initiation merely a celebration if one wishes to have one. The ceremony, which is a fairly new one, does not make one a bar mitzvah, it just marks the time when one becomes a “son/daughter of the commandments.” The real meaning of the phrase is not “son or daughter of the commandments” but “_one of _the commandments” in the sense of “one who is responsible for performing the commandments”.
> 
> An oath of loyalty/allegiance is just that.... an oath.


So from google, basically every definition of initiation I found indicates that it's an act of recognizing someone as part of your group/society. So a celebration of someone joining a religious society would absolutely fall under that. Even if they did nothing besides exist on the earth for one more day than they had before (and from what I remember from my jewish friends, had to attend a school, and then read/understand hebrew to a certain extent). By the definitions I found for inititation, signing an agreement/publicly stating you would abide by specific rules/policies/morals, would count as that. 

Hazing is a very different thing than initiation, and I agree that hazing is where the issues come from, that could be considered abuse.


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> . So a celebration of someone joining a religious society would absolutely fall under that. Even if they did nothing besides exist on the earth for one more day than they had before (and from what I remember from my jewish friends, had to attend a school, and then read/understand hebrew to a certain extent). By the definitions I found for inititation, signing an agreement/publicly stating you would abide by specific rules/policies/morals, would count as that.




it's not a' joining the community' at all one is part of it at 13 whether one has a Bar Mitzvah or not, this isn't my 'opinion' by the way. The Bar Mitvah is the ceremony celebrating a boy becoming 13 which he will whether he has the ceremony of not.
"The bar mitzvah is automatic, whether or not a celebration or special ceremony is held. But since becoming a _bar mitzvah_ is such an important milestone and joyous occasion, we make a point of celebrating together with family and friends."
Bar Mitzvah: When It Is and How to Celebrate - What you need to know about reaching the age of bar mitzvah


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> it's not a' joining the community' at all one is part of it at 13 whether one has a Bar Mitzvah or not, this isn't my 'opinion' by the way. The Bar Mitvah is the ceremony celebrating a boy becoming 13 which he will whether he has the ceremony of not.
> "The bar mitzvah is automatic, whether or not a celebration or special ceremony is held. But since becoming a _bar mitzvah_ is such an important milestone and joyous occasion, we make a point of celebrating together with family and friends."
> Bar Mitzvah: When It Is and How to Celebrate - What you need to know about reaching the age of bar mitzvah


So that article differs from people whom I know that completed a Bar Mitzvah (by chance I know a lot of jewish people, since the community I grew up in was over 50% jewish). From what I understand from them, they had to complete a fairly easy study program with a rabbim, and on their bar mitzvah had to read a passage from the torah. Now, as I'm not jewish I don't know if that's actually necessary or not, but I was told by mutliple jewish friends that it was.

In a similar vein, as a lutheran, myself and my peers had to participate in a ceremony to be considered confirmed, which involved us reading a part of the bible. This was an initiation for us, which we had to complete as part of our community. Before my pastor would confirm us, we had to attend church a certain number of times, write/discuss those services, and also take classes about the bible, then pass tests to confirm our knowledge (the idea is that you would not confirm youself to a religion you didn't understand). None of what occurred was inappropriate, no one was forced to do anything and there was no negative effect on any of us. 

But upon completing it, there was a ceremony where we invited our family and friends, answered questions in public, and read/discussed a meaningful passage of the bible. That absolutely was an initiation that we all went through, but there was no abuse/humiliation involved.


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## dvcochran (Mar 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Absolutely not an initiation, it is a celebration of becoming someone who follows the Commandments, The obligations and responsibilities become theirs whether there is a formal celebration or not so is not an initiation merely a celebration if one wishes to have one. The ceremony, which is a fairly new one, does not make one a bar mitzvah, it just marks the time when one becomes a “son/daughter of the commandments.” The real meaning of the phrase is not “son or daughter of the commandments” but “_one of _the commandments” in the sense of “one who is responsible for performing the commandments”.
> 
> An oath of loyalty/allegiance is just that.... an oath.


In regards to the word 'initiation', that is laced with about as much semantics as could be put in a paragraph.


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Now, as I'm not jewish I don't know if that's actually necessary or not, but I was told by mutliple jewish friends that it was.



In Jewish Law when one reaches 13 for a boy and 12 for a girl, one is automatically Bar/Bat Mitzvah's, that's the Law, as the article from Chabad says we like to make a performance of it, a celebration, we like to show our children off, that they can read etc. basically to make it an occasion to remember but it's not an initiation because under Jewish Law one is Bar/Bat Mitzvah anyway even without all the reading, parties, etc. The ceremonies are a way of showing happiness and gratitude that the boy or girl is now adult enough to take on responsibilities. 

About Bar/Bat Mitzvah | My Jewish Learning

The Laws of Bar Mitzvah - Parshat Vayishlach

Bar and Bat Mitzvah


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> hat absolutely was an initiation that we all went through, but there was no abuse/humiliation involved.




I will point out that I did say in my experience of initiations there was nothing good about them at all. You can disagree with me of course but you can't disagree with the fact that all the initiations I've had to deal with have been bad so am of course more than biased towards those who think initiations such as the one in the OP are fine.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I will point out that I did say in my experience of initiations there was nothing good about them at all. You can disagree with me of course but you can't disagree with the fact that all the initiations I've had to deal with have been bad so am of course more than biased towards those who think initiations such as the one in the OP are fine.


I think y only disagreement is over the definition of “initiation “. In many schools, there’s a sense of entering a new “brotherhood” (for lack of a better word) upon achieving BB rank. Thus, some sort of initiation ritual often accompanies it. Many other pursuits also have that. Your description of bar mitzvah would fit the joining of a new group (that of the bar mitzvahs) within the Jewish community, and the rituals/celebrations surrounding it would qualify as an initiation to that group, by the wider definition.


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Your description of bar mitzvah would fit the joining of a new group (that of the bar mitzvahs) within the Jewish community, and the rituals/celebrations surrounding it would qualify as an initiation to that group, by the wider definition.




Ok but how would a Bar/Bat Mitzvah be an initiation if it happens automatically and whether one wanted it or not?  If you want a Jewish initiation that would be the Bris. Now that will cause plenty of arguments so I am not commenting on that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Ok but how would a Bar/Bat Mitzvah be an initiation if it happens automatically and whether one wanted it or not?  If you want a Jewish initiation that would be the Bris. Now that will cause plenty of arguments so I am not commenting on that.


I said the ritual/celebration would be an initiation. The actual bar/bat mitzvah is what is being celebrated.


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I said the ritual/celebration would be an initiation. The actual bar/bat mitzvah is what is being celebrated.



I did say that what people see as the 'lessons', the 'reading', the party and the very important presents are all celebrations. You can't have an initiation if it happens anyway whether you want it to or not. If you don't want all the fuss and do nothing at all, you will be Bar Mitzvah just the same, just one without aunts kissing you, sisters in law complaining about the food and the fountain pen presents. In some cultures there is a celebration when a girl gets her first menstrual period, it's not an initiation though as it will happen anyway.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I did say that what people see as the 'lessons', the 'reading', the party and the very important presents are all celebrations. You can't have an initiation if it happens anyway whether you want it to or not. If you don't want all the fuss and do nothing at all, you will be Bar Mitzvah just the same, just one without aunts kissing you, sisters in law complaining about the food and the fountain pen presents. In some cultures there is a celebration when a girl gets her first menstrual period, it's not an initiation though as it will happen anyway.


Yes. That's why I said the celebration is an initiation.


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Yes. That's why I said the celebration is an initiation.




I'm sorry I can't see that, it's merely a celebration, would you call every birthday you have an initiation? Is every wedding anniversary an initiation? The Bar Mitzvah happens whether you celebrate or not so are you saying if they don't have the celebration/'initiation' they aren't Bar Mitzvah?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I'm sorry I can't see that, it's merely a celebration, would you call every birthday you have an initiation? Is every wedding anniversary an initiation? The Bar Mitzvah happens whether you celebrate or not so are you saying if they don't have the celebration/'initiation' they aren't Bar Mitzvah?


In the cases of birthdays and wedding anniversaries, they aren't joining a distinct new subgroup (like "blackbelts"). I'm not sure why you go back to the thing about the Bar Mitzvah being automatic, since I'm talking about the celebration, not the Bar Mitzvah itself. It's possible to join a group/subgroup without an initiation to specifically mark it.

So, if someone's 80th birthday were celebrated specially by a group of octagenarians, then I suppose that could be considered an initiation into that subgroup. It's not a standard usage of the term, but it would fit the definition.


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure why you go back to the thing about the Bar Mitzvah being automatic, since I'm talking about the celebration, not the Bar Mitzvah itself



I say that because the Bar Mitzvah is the 'thing' not the celebration, that's a modern add on and really just the fluff as opposed to the point which the reaching of the age 12/13 as that's the important thing. Something that may not have made a lot of sense in modern times when children usually survive but is looking much more understandable with this virus, although it's not so dangerous to most young people.


All a bit academic now I'm afraid, all the synagogues have closed for the foreseeable future so no parties.  My husband and I ( both in at risk group) are in what they are calling 'social distancing', just going out when necessary. I'm a social person, if I can't train, take Guides, go to the cinema etc I'm not going to be happy lol. They have even closed the seating areas in McDs, drive through only! I have plenty to occupy myself, can go for walks (but sometimes I want to chat to people not sheep) and of course there's debating on here to keep my mind alert, so while some may think this is about semantics it's more than that, it's helping to beat the isolation!!!  So thank you. I mean it


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## geezer (Mar 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> In Jewish Law when one reaches 13 for a boy and 12 for a girl, one is automatically Bar/Bat Mitzvah's, that's the Law, as the article from Chabad says we like to make a performance of it, a celebration, we like to show our children off, that they can read etc. basically to make it an occasion to remember but it's not an initiation because under Jewish Law one is Bar/Bat Mitzvah anyway even without all the reading, parties, etc. The ceremonies are a way of showing happiness and gratitude that the boy or girl is now adult enough to take on responsibilities.
> 
> About Bar/Bat Mitzvah | My Jewish Learning
> 
> ...



All a matter of perspective. I'm sure my understanding of such things is out of date, but when I pursued my university degree in Social Anthropology decades ago, such "celebrations" were called rites of passage, and broadly speaking, functioned ...in this cas, for example, to confirm the youth's acceptance into the group or tribe as an adult. Rites of passage often include physical trials and/or hazing (the Dakota Sun Dance, the Austrailian aboriginal "walkabout", or the circumcision rites of the Kalenjin, to name a few), but not always. Most modern initiations and rites of passage are, like you said, _celebratory_ in nature.

I later went on to study other disciplines and a career in teaching visual arts, and so my understanding of such terms is probably not current. Perhaps today the term initiation can no longer mean being ceremonially welcomed into a group, or into a new, more elite status within a group. Perhaps nowdays it specifically means cruel rituals involving hazing and torture. Sorry if I'm out of touch!


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## geezer (Mar 17, 2020)

Interestingly, I think my apparent misunderstanding? ...of a Bar Mitzvah as _both_ a celebration and rite of passage probably comes from Rabbi Nobel who was also a professor at my _college_ (U.S. usage, meaning a school within the University, or -in this case- a small institution at the level of the university but without extensive post-graduate programs).

It's been ages, and I'm certain I've forgotten the nuances. But he told us that "coming of age" at 13 was the _mitzvah_  or rightious act, but the celebration, both within the synagogue and the party that followed, fell squarely into the description of a_ rite of passage, _socially affirming the young man's status as an adult member of the congregation.

OK, he probably didn't say "synagogue". He probably said "temple" since he was a _Reform_ Rabbi. Do they even have Reform congregations in the UK?

Well Good G-D! As you would write it, I'm so out of touch with religion in my life these days ....kinda odd...especially for a guy who began a double major in Anthropology and Religious Studies, back in the 70s!!! And with a passing interest in some phony version of Shao-lin Chuan that was way heavy on the wuxia stuff. Eventually I shifted into Wing Chun and Escrima, which although not considered very practical today, were really hard core and down to earth by comparison to what I trained previously. Now I'm even agnostic about that! I'll probably die godless and alone. But hopefully not today, and not of coronaviris.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I say that because the Bar Mitzvah is the 'thing' not the celebration, that's a modern add on and really just the fluff as opposed to the point which the reaching of the age 12/13 as that's the important thing. Something that may not have made a lot of sense in modern times when children usually survive but is looking much more understandable with this virus, although it's not so dangerous to most young people.
> 
> 
> All a bit academic now I'm afraid, all the synagogues have closed for the foreseeable future so no parties.  My husband and I ( both in at risk group) are in what they are calling 'social distancing', just going out when necessary. I'm a social person, if I can't train, take Guides, go to the cinema etc I'm not going to be happy lol. They have even closed the seating areas in McDs, drive through only! I have plenty to occupy myself, can go for walks (but sometimes I want to chat to people not sheep) and of course there's debating on here to keep my mind alert, so while some may think this is about semantics it's more than that, it's helping to beat the isolation!!!  So thank you. I mean it


I do understand (at a superficial level, admittedly) that the Bar/Bat Mitzvah is the important thing, and the celebration is just a celebration of what's important. That's why I included the reference to black belt. Because the work to achieve that rank is the achievement, not the belt, itself. Nor, of course, the initiation that may be involved at one side or the other of that rank (like the Kyokushin kumite).


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## Tez3 (Mar 18, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Because the work to achieve that rank is the achievement, not the belt, itself.



There's no work actually needed to be Bar Mitzvah though, the tradition of having 'Bar Mitzvah lessons' etc is a relatively new one, perhaps brought in to make it seem even more important and probably in line with the thought that children need examinations as they do in school so you can check they can read and write. For a good many Jewish children the Bar/Bat Mitzvah is actually quite a miserable time, it's the adults who want to do the celebrating, teenage boys especially do not want all the fuss.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 18, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> There's no work actually needed to be Bar Mitzvah though, the tradition of having 'Bar Mitzvah lessons' etc is a relatively new one, perhaps brought in to make it seem even more important and probably in line with the thought that children need examinations as they do in school so you can check they can read and write. For a good many Jewish children the Bar/Bat Mitzvah is actually quite a miserable time, it's the adults who want to do the celebrating, teenage boys especially do not want all the fuss.


I understand that. I didn't say anything about work needed to be Bar Mitzvah. The sentence you quoted was about black belt rank.


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## Tez3 (Mar 18, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I understand that. I didn't say anything about work needed to be Bar Mitzvah. The sentence you quoted was about black belt rank.



Oh is that why you mentioned 'black belt'?   Well of course I know it was about black belts, which is why I said they don't actually have to work for Bar Mitzvah unlike the black belt where work is involved, you don't get to celebrate the belt if you haven't passed the grading do you? so not a very good analogy really. I'd say a white belt was probably more of a good analogy, you get it to keep your Gi jacket closed and can celebrate your very first belt if you want.  ( though for some reason there are places that make you grade for your white belt )


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## Yokozuna514 (Mar 18, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Nor, of course, the initiation that may be involved at one side or the other of that rank (like the Kyokushin kumite).


  And this means........


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 18, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Oh is that why you mentioned 'black belt'?   Well of course I know it was about black belts, which is why I said they don't actually have to work for Bar Mitzvah unlike the black belt where work is involved, you don't get to celebrate the belt if you haven't passed the grading do you? so not a very good analogy really. I'd say a white belt was probably more of a good analogy, you get it to keep your Gi jacket closed and can celebrate your very first belt if you want.  ( though for some reason there are places that make you grade for your white belt )


I wasn't using BB as an analogy for Bar Mitzvah. I was using both to discuss rituals and celebrations that fit the defintition of "initiation".


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 18, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> And this means........


I'm not sure I understand your question.


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## drop bear (Mar 19, 2020)




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## Yokozuna514 (Mar 19, 2020)

I was not sure what you were referring to when you said, "Nor, of course, the initiation that may be involved at one side or the other of that rank (like the Kyokushin kumite)."


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## Tez3 (Mar 19, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I wasn't using BB as an analogy for Bar Mitzvah. I was using both to discuss rituals and celebrations that fit the defintition of "initiation".




I don't think Bar Mitvah fits the definition of initiation though, as I've said before it happens whether you celebrate or ignore it. The 'work' involved isn't necessary to gain it, just like your birthday it happens anyway. Would your hair growing grey be considered an initiation into old age?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 19, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> I was not sure what you were referring to when you said, "Nor, of course, the initiation that may be involved at one side or the other of that rank (like the Kyokushin kumite)."


Meaning that the initiation isn't the point. The training and achievement are the point. The initiation is just a social thing that celebrates or marks the achievement.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 19, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I don't think Bar Mitvah fits the definition of initiation though, as I've said before it happens whether you celebrate or ignore it. The 'work' involved isn't necessary to gain it, just like your birthday it happens anyway. Would your hair growing grey be considered an initiation into old age?


You keep going in circles. I've said several times that *the celebration is the initiation, not the Bar Mitzvah*. And then you come back and say something about the Bar Mitzvah not being an initiation. To which, on at least two occasions, I've said I agree.


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## Yokozuna514 (Mar 19, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Meaning that the initiation isn't the point. The training and achievement are the point. The initiation is just a social thing that celebrates or marks the achievement.


Ok, well I appreciate the response.  Not sure what it has to do with Kyokushin Kumite in terms of initiation or achievement in the context of your discussion but I do not want to derail your conversation with Tez with a segue into this.


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## Tez3 (Mar 19, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> ut I do not want to derail your conversation with Tez with a segue into this.




Oh I would go for it, he is just trying to wind me up anyway.


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## Tez3 (Mar 19, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You keep going in circles. I've said several times that *the celebration is the initiation, not the Bar Mitzvah*. And then you come back and say something about the Bar Mitzvah not being an initiation. To which, on at least two occasions, I've said I agree.




That would be because I consider you wrong, the celebration isn't the initiation. It's not for the Bar Mitzvah it's for the parents, the family and the friends, the caterers, the venue, the waiting staff, the wine merchant, the shops where the presents are brought etc etc, it's a commercial venture not an initiation. Parties aren't initiations, they are parties.


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## skribs (Mar 19, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Oh I would go for it, he is just trying to wind me up anyway.



@gpseymour is the absolute last person on this forum I would expect to try and wind anyone up.


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## drop bear (Mar 19, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Ok, well I appreciate the response.  Not sure what it has to do with Kyokushin Kumite in terms of initiation or achievement in the context of your discussion but I do not want to derail your conversation with Tez with a segue into this.



A ritual that admits you in to a group. 

Now that kumite is a ritual. And once you have done it you join the very exclusive group of people who have done a kumitie. 

Now it is not done to harass or demean but to uplift that person. To push them to be a better person basically.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 19, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Oh I would go for it, he is just trying to wind me up anyway.


Im entirely confused how you drew that conclusion. You keep seeming to think I’m saying something I’ve said three times I’m not saying.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 19, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> That would be because I consider you wrong, the celebration isn't the initiation. It's not for the Bar Mitzvah it's for the parents, the family and the friends, the caterers, the venue, the waiting staff, the wine merchant, the shops where the presents are brought etc etc, it's a commercial venture not an initiation. Parties aren't initiations, they are parties.


Initiations can be parties.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 19, 2020)

drop bear said:


> A ritual that admits you in to a group.
> 
> Now that kumite is a ritual. And once you have done it you join the very exclusive group of people who have done a kumitie.
> 
> Now it is not done to harass or demean but to uplift that person. To push them to be a better person basically.


This, exactly.


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## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Initiations can be parties.




Lol if your parties are like that can I have an invite, after we come out of isolation of course.




skribs said:


> @gpseymour is the absolute last person on this forum I would expect to try and wind anyone up.



and you are the last person to have a sense of humour, you obviously didn't see it as the joke it was. I'd already said that conversing with him was keeping me sane while stuck indoors.



drop bear said:


> A ritual that admits you in to a group.



A Bar Mitzvah doesn't admit you into Judaism though, you are already in when you are born. As I said if you want a ritual look at the Bris.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 20, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> A Bar Mitzvah doesn't admit you into Judaism though, you are already in when you are born. As I said if you want a ritual look at the Bris.


This is where my reference to BB came in. The Bar Mitzvah is their entry to a sub-group (I've forgotten the term you used for that group/status). The same is true of BB - the person has been a member of the MA community and that school/art for some time. Now they're a member of the "yudansha", which is just a subgroup within the larger community they already belonged to.


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## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> This is where my reference to BB came in. The Bar Mitzvah is their entry to a sub-group (I've forgotten the term you used for that group/status). The same is true of BB - the person has been a member of the MA community and that school/art for some time. Now they're a member of the "yudansha", which is just a subgroup within the larger community they already belonged to.




Yes and no, it you are talking subgroups in Judaism, there is as many of them as there are individuals, despite what none Jews think we aren't actually an organised religion, while we say the boy needs to be 13 to take up the religious responsibilities and rights of being a man, it's not actually necessary as he can do that before 13. We were born being complicated. The current celebration was only started in the 19th century and many liberal Jews have done away with it altogether.  Ultra Orthodox, the Chasidism, have their own ways. My Big Fat Hasidic Bar Mitzvah - Atlanta Jewish Times


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## skribs (Mar 20, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> and you are the last person to have a sense of humour, you obviously didn't see it as the joke it was. I'd already said that conversing with him was keeping me sane while stuck indoors.



You're right, I didn't see it.  Because I don't read most of your posts.


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## Yokozuna514 (Mar 20, 2020)

drop bear said:


> A ritual that admits you in to a group.
> 
> Now that kumite is a ritual. And once you have done it you join the very exclusive group of people who have done a kumite.
> 
> Now it is not done to harass or demean but to uplift that person. To push them to be a better person basically.


I am not certain you could refer to kumite as a ritual.  Aside from the bowing at the beginning of the kumite the rest is a free form contest.   The bowing would be similar to the ref meeting at the beginning of a boxing match.  Unless you are referring to that as also being a ritual, which I suppose it could be, that would be the only ritualistic part I could see but to be clear that is a very small part of the boxing match (or kumite for Kyokushin) so equating one with or the other as a ritual is not really painting an accurate picture.  

I do agree that once you have done Knockdown karate you join a very exclusive group of people who have a desire to fight with bare knuckles and kicks to the head but to use just the word kumite is not quite accurate.  Kumite, as you probably know, means sparring which many styles of karate do to a greater or lesser extent.   Kyokushin is much more known for jiyu kumite or free form sparring.   Sanbon kumite (or three step sparring) is much more ritualistic in nature but this type of sparring is not unique to Kyokushin.   I actually don't know many Kyokushin dojos that use sanbon kumite to any extent.  I am sure it happens but Kyokushin is not known for it.  

Again, not to derail your conversation about rituals and initiations but Kyokushin kumite is probably not the best example of ritualist sparring however I do suppose a person's first Kyokushin jiyu kumite could be called an initiation into a school of 'hard knocks'.


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## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2020)

skribs said:


> You're right, I didn't see it.  Because I don't read most of your posts.




Oh but you do and attack me for them frequently. As you did with the comments you made above.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 20, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> I am not certain you could refer to kumite as a ritual.  Aside from the bowing at the beginning of the kumite the rest is a free form contest.   The bowing would be similar to the ref meeting at the beginning of a boxing match.  Unless you are referring to that as also being a ritual, which I suppose it could be, that would be the only ritualistic part I could see but to be clear that is a very small part of the boxing match (or kumite for Kyokushin) so equating one with or the other as a ritual is not really painting an accurate picture.
> 
> I do agree that once you have done Knockdown karate you join a very exclusive group of people who have a desire to fight with bare knuckles and kicks to the head but to use just the word kumite is not quite accurate.  Kumite, as you probably know, means sparring which many styles of karate do to a greater or lesser extent.   Kyokushin is much more known for jiyu kumite or free form sparring.   Sanbon kumite (or three step sparring) is much more ritualistic in nature but this type of sparring is not unique to Kyokushin.   I actually don't know many Kyokushin dojos that use sanbon kumite to any extent.  I am sure it happens but Kyokushin is not known for it.
> 
> Again, not to derail your conversation about rituals and initiations but Kyokushin kumite is probably not the best example of ritualist sparring however I do suppose a person's first Kyokushin jiyu kumite could be called an initiation into a school of 'hard knocks'.


It's the placement/timing of it that's a ritual, of sorts. It's not prescribed, but it fits the loose definition of ritual in that sense.


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## Tez3 (Mar 21, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It's the placement/timing of it that's a ritual, of sorts. It's not prescribed, but it fits the loose definition of ritual in that sense.



If you look at it that way life is a series of rituals.


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## Yokozuna514 (Mar 23, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It's the placement/timing of it that's a ritual, of sorts. It's not prescribed, but it fits the loose definition of ritual in that sense.


It sounds like you are saying all forms of contests (martial or otherwise) are a ritual.  That's a very 'loose' definition of ritual  .


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> It sounds like you are saying all forms of contests (martial or otherwise) are a ritual.  That's a very 'loose' definition of ritual  .


I can't see that. If I go to a competition, there may be some ritual in it (bows and such), but I can't see where the event would qualify as a ritual, as there's no special significance to it. The Kyokushin kumite is specifically a rite of passage in the system, and has special significance. If they did exactly the same thing on sporadic occasions with no special significance, those would not seem to fit the definition of ritual.


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## Yokozuna514 (Mar 23, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I can't see that. If I go to a competition, there may be some ritual in it (bows and such), but I can't see where the event would qualify as a ritual, as there's no special significance to it. The Kyokushin kumite is specifically a rite of passage in the system, and has special significance. If they did exactly the same thing on sporadic occasions with no special significance, those would not seem to fit the definition of ritual.


Ok, so not all contests are rituals, I think we agree there but now it would seem as you are saying that Kyokushin kumite is now a rite of passage ?  Are you saying that rituals = rites of passage then ?

I do agree that Kyokushin kumite has a special significance to the people that participate in them.  Where we differ is that I do not agree that it is any more of a ritual or a rite of passage than someone entering their first boxing match.  

Belt ceremonies are much more ritualistic in nature.  I would suggest that would be a better example to use than Kyokushin kumite.  That may fit the context of your discussion better but not every belt ceremony is celebrated nor an initiation into anything other than the next level of training in that system.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Ok, so not all contests are rituals, I think we agree there but now it would seem as you are saying that Kyokushin kumite is now a rite of passage ?  Are you saying that rituals = rites of passage then ?


Most rites of passage probably qualify as rituals. Not all rituals qualify as a rite of passage, particularly not those that are repeated over time (many religious rituals, for instance).



> I do agree that Kyokushin kumite has a special significance to the people that participate in them.  Where we differ is that I do not agree that it is any more of a ritual or a rite of passage than someone entering their first boxing match.


I think you're right that both are a rite of passage. But there's no difference in approach (for everyone else involved) at a first boxing match. For the most part, it's just a boxing match that happens to have a rookie in it. The 100-man kumite is (so far as I know) a one-time thing, and the cultural significance (within the Kyokushin community) is what makes it different.



> Belt ceremonies are much more ritualistic in nature.  I would suggest that would be a better example to use than Kyokushin kumite.  That may fit the context of your discussion better but not every belt ceremony is celebrated nor an initiation into anything other than the next level of training in that system.


I definitely agree that a belt ceremony is a clearer example of a ritual, where there is much ritual around it. It'd be debatable whether my awarding a yellow belt via simulated strangulation (yes, that's how they typically get it) is a ritual or not. Certainly my primary instructor had a ritual around it, with a more formal approach than usual.


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## Yokozuna514 (Mar 23, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Most rites of passage probably qualify as rituals. Not all rituals qualify as a rite of passage, particularly not those that are repeated over time (many religious rituals, for instance).
> 
> 
> I think you're right that both are a rite of passage. But there's no difference in approach (for everyone else involved) at a first boxing match. For the most part, it's just a boxing match that happens to have a rookie in it. The 100-man kumite is (so far as I know) a one-time thing, and the cultural significance (within the Kyokushin community) is what makes it different.
> ...


Well I think that is where you and Tez may have been hung up.   To say that most rites of passage qualify as rituals is not necessarily true unless you consider how the rite of passage is performed.  Turning 12 or 13 years old is considered a rite of passage into adulthood in many cultures however the event itself "waking up one day and being one year older" has nothing ritualistic about it.  It may not be any different than waking up the day before.   Gathering the family or community to publicly attest to becoming 12 or 13 may have some ritualistic ceremonies attached but there are also many 12 and 13 year olds that do not have these gatherings or celebrations but that doesn't change the fact that they have become 12 or 13 years old.  

I suppose to be clear it is in the way you celebrate these occasions that will qualify if it can be considered to be a ritual or not.  That may be the distinction that Tez was making.  It is the distinction I am trying to make.  

I suppose you could make a ritual of awarding a yellow belt via simulated strangulation.  There are many rituals that are very esoteric and meaningful only to those that are initiated in their respective MA.  

The 100 man kumite is something else completely and I am not sure it is relevant to this discussion as it is an event that very few people even try to attempt within our own community.  I would not think it would be considered a 'rite of passage' in this sense.  It is a very exclusive club especially for the people that have completed it but 'ritual' or 'rite of passage' would not be a good descriptor.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Well I think that is where you and Tez may have been hung up.   To say that most rites of passage qualify as rituals is not necessarily true unless you consider how the rite of passage is performed.  Turning 12 or 13 years old is considered a rite of passage into adulthood in many cultures however the event itself "waking up one day and being one year older" has nothing ritualistic about it.  It may not be any different than waking up the day before.   Gathering the family or community to publicly attest to becoming 12 or 13 may have some ritualistic ceremonies attached but there are also many 12 and 13 year olds that do not have these gatherings or celebrations but that doesn't change the fact that they have become 12 or 13 years old.


I'm not sure there's anything in turning 12 or 13 that would really qualify as a "rite", as I understand it. But let's assume they do. Those would be examples of rites that don't match the idea of ritual, which is why I said "most", rather than "all".



> I suppose to be clear it is in the way you celebrate these occasions that will qualify if it can be considered to be a ritual or not.  That may be the distinction that Tez was making.  It is the distinction I am trying to make.


Honestly, as far as I can tell, Tez and I were talking at cross purposes. She was making a point about something she thought I was saying, so just a miscommunication.



> I suppose you could make a ritual of awarding a yellow belt via simulated strangulation.  There are many rituals that are very esoteric and meaningful only to those that are initiated in their respective MA.


If I'd given enough of them so they expected it, it might come to qualify. Fortunately, it's like the Spanish Inquisition.







> The 100 man kumite is something else completely and I am not sure it is relevant to this discussion as it is an event that very few people even try to attempt within our own community.  I would not think it would be considered a 'rite of passage' in this sense.  It is a very exclusive club especially for the people that have completed it but 'ritual' or 'rite of passage' would not be a good descriptor.


That point about it being "a very exclusive club" was actually the point. But we're still dickering over the definition of ritual, which really isn't all that important.


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## Yokozuna514 (Mar 23, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That point about it being "a very exclusive club" was actually the point. But we're still dickering over the definition of ritual, which really isn't all that important.



I think the 'dickering' is the result of some of the terms you are using to describe a style you are not currently practicing are considered (by one of the practitioners of that style) as inaccurate.  Similarly, I suppose Tez was simply pointing out the same situation existed when you were using terms to describe a bar/bat mitzvah.  Tez being from that culture, I would think, would have a better understanding of the accuracies of your statements.   I do believe, and she can correct me if I am wrong, that was all she was trying to do.  The 'dickering' hence comes when you are trying to explain or justify what you were saying as still being 'accurate' in some sense.  I would agree, that is definitely dickering.  

In any event, I do not think there is much point of discussing how the use of the term 'a very exclusive club' does or does not equate to a 'ritual'.  It certainly has no bearing on learning to take strikes which we focus on quite a bit in Kyokushin but I do not know any dojos that would condone the methods used in the opening video.


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## Tez3 (Mar 23, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> She was making a point about something she thought I was saying, so just a miscommunication.



That's unfair as you were misunderstanding my point and kept talking about _something else_. I was talking about something I know inside out and backwards but you were telling me I was wrong.

Yokozuna is completely correct. thank you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> That's unfair as you were misunderstanding my point and kept talking about _something else_. I was talking about something I know inside out and backwards but you were telling me I was wrong.
> 
> Yokozuna is completely correct. thank you.


You were talking about my posts about the topic. And I was referring to the celebration, not the Bar Mitzvah. I said on more than one occasion I agreed that the Bar Mitzvah - as you explained it to me - is not a ritual. You replied more than once that the Bar Mitzvah isn't a ritual.

Hence my take that there was a miscommunication.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> I think the 'dickering' is the result of some of the terms you are using to describe a style you are not currently practicing are considered (by one of the practitioners of that style) as inaccurate.  Similarly, I suppose Tez was simply pointing out the same situation existed when you were using terms to describe a bar/bat mitzvah.  Tez being from that culture, I would think, would have a better understanding of the accuracies of your statements.   I do believe, and she can correct me if I am wrong, that was all she was trying to do.  The 'dickering' hence comes when you are trying to explain or justify what you were saying as still being 'accurate' in some sense.  I would agree, that is definitely dickering.
> 
> In any event, I do not think there is much point of discussing how the use of the term 'a very exclusive club' does or does not equate to a 'ritual'.  It certainly has no bearing on learning to take strikes which we focus on quite a bit in Kyokushin but I do not know any dojos that would condone the methods used in the opening video.


Okay, you know what, it was a simple point based on some pretty simply concepts, in a pretty unimportant side-point. If you want to argue, go ahead. I'm still not sure what you're arguing about.


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## Yokozuna514 (Mar 23, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, you know what, it was a simple point based on some pretty simply concepts, in a pretty unimportant side-point. If you want to argue, go ahead. I'm still not sure what you're arguing about.


I'm not arguing with you, just simply pointing out that Kyokushin kumite is neither a ritual, rite of passage or exclusive club as you seemed to have said.   Nothing personal and if you simply acknowledge that the point you were trying to make was inaccurate, neither Tez nor I would have said any more on the subject.


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## Tez3 (Mar 23, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You were talking about my posts about the topic. And I was referring to the celebration, not the Bar Mitzvah. I said on more than one occasion I agreed that the Bar Mitzvah - as you explained it to me - is not a ritual. You replied more than once that the Bar Mitzvah isn't a ritual.
> 
> Hence my take that there was a miscommunication.




The 'celebration' isn't a ritual, it's just a party, some have one some don't. Parties are just parties, we have them particularly ones with food because times have been very hard, are still hard for many and we celebrate when we can, which in the UK at least will not be for a very long time, we are now in lockdown, no more than two people outside together, no leaving homes unless for food, medical reasons or for essential works, the police are to enforce this. I'm sure people will moan but it has to be done, it was voluntary but too many people ignored the advice and now it's law.


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