# Long 2 - questions



## Carol (Jun 24, 2006)

From a meditating position:

1. Step in to a right neutral bow while executing:
   a.  Right inward block
   b.  Left back elbow strike

2. Immedately execute a right handsword at the same height of the block, palm down

3. Shift into a forward bow while:
    a.  Left shotgun to eyes
    b.  Right cocks

4.  Return to a neutral bow while:
    a.   Right spearhand to solar plexus
    b.   Left checks(?)

A couple of questions on these opening moves...

While the right spearhand is executed to the solar plexus, does the left hand return to check position?

How practical is the spearhand strike?  I guess I could see it useful on the eyes.  I'm sure a spearhand to the solar plexus would hurt, but it sees as if there would also be a risk of jamming up my own fingers in the process.  Would there ever be a case where the a spearhand is used instead of a punch? 

Thanks :asian:


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## Kacey (Jun 24, 2006)

Um... I think your post got cut off... or is this a trick question?  :idunno:

EDIT:  Never mind... by the time I posted this, the rest of the post had appeared.


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## Carol (Jun 24, 2006)

Don't tell anyone that I make computer mistakes.  I'll never live to hear the end of it.  
​


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## Kacey (Jun 24, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Don't tell anyone that I make computer mistakes.  I'll never live to hear the end of it.
> ​



I just figured it was a problem with the board - not you.  Unless you'd like to say otherwise, I'm going to stick with that. :wink2:


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## michaeledward (Jun 24, 2006)

The left hand returns to the left hip, but it is in open hand position, not the cocked fist that we used in the 1's.

1a - 2 - 3b   should really feel and act almost as a single move. We learn the handsword as a slicing handsword on a diagonal downward angle. The action of the chop, slices the hand toward the right hip, which also torques the body for the forward bow.

I don't know what your term 'shotgun' describes (3a), we perform a rather ordinary heelpalm strike.

I think you are correct, in that 4a, the finger poke is a less effective weapon than a punch. Although, this strike might be effective when considering the range.


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## Ceicei (Jun 24, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> How practical is the spearhand strike?  I guess I could see it useful on the eyes.  *I'm sure a spearhand to the solar plexus would hurt, but it sees as if there would also be a risk of jamming up my own fingers in the process.*  Would there ever be a case where the a spearhand is used instead of a punch?
> 
> Thanks :asian:



I learned the old way years ago before the current way had a few modifications to the technique.  

The spearhand goes upward under the ribs, and believe me, it will hurt if the target is aimed for correctly with torque for power.

- Ceicei


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 24, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> From a meditating position:
> 
> 1. Step in to a right neutral bow while executing:
> a. Right inward block
> ...


 
Before I start a diatribe, are you more interested in a progressive answer that's applications based, or in one that supports the "traditional" core database of kenpo.  They differ.  Particularly if you're willing to bend the rules a bit, there are some fun things you can do with this.

Incidently, the left hand checking at the right shoulder should return to the shoulder with some authority as a slap-check. Progressive or not.

Some schools, realizing that not everyone will have the finger strength, thickness, or development as some of the older brutes in the system, have modified it to either an inward palm-heel strike, or a an upward rising rigid-hand strike to the groin. 

Conceptually, it's a visitation to the master-key sequencing demonstrated in 5 swords, and a bunch of other techs. The concept that drives the sequence is more improtant than the natural weapons one chooses in it's expression. Block/chop movement of the lead hand to a high line, followed immediately by a more powerful rear-hand strike (also to the high line...some people emphasize spearhand, others palm heel, others still inside-downward overhead palm heel/rake [which is my personal fave & choice])...now the guys got his hands up. The next strike thrown to the high line will bump into his inadvertant guard as he covers against follow-up blows, or simply puts his hands to his bloody eyes in natural response to the shotgun. This governs that the next strike should go to where the hands are not...midsection, or lower. I've seen some schools switch that right hand to a vertical thrust punch, others uppercut (targeting costal cartilage line of the ribs, which pretty effectively takes the wind from the guy, particulalry if you target the any of the acupuncture points, Spleen 16, Stomach 23, or Gall Bladder 24), still others follow it with a lead leg low-line snap kick to the knee, back of knee, groin, or fibular head (front, side or roundhouse variations). Are they pure? The way it is written in the manuals? Nope. But are you interested in either conditining your fingers to become weapons (lots of finger press-ups, spearing buckets of rice or sand, etc.), or breaking them on the vertical spear hand in the middle of a self-defense scenario, effectively losing the use of your right hand while in the middle of needing it really really badly?

While I do not ascribe to purist kenpo, having decided *personally* that much of it is fluff and filler to appease the consumer masses, I do believe that practicing SOME of the forms is a great way to program some of the more important options into muscle memory. I think the master movements in this first part are worth engraining. I do not think most practitioners have any businesss training that spearhand. I have done the silly conditioning, and can spear a guy in the abdomen without breaking my hand. Still, I wouldn't do it. Why chance that this one time, I may have the angle wrong?  What if I tear off a fingernail on a piece of clothing? (that stuff hurts)

Personally, when I train this form, I angle that final vertical spearhand up and in a bit, to the carotid triangle. I can ride the angle of the attackers forearms up to that target, and find the sweet spot, even while their hands are up to cover their face...no one instinctively covers their face by making their elbows touch accross the front of their body, and that leaves the opening and angle for planting a re-inforced 4-finger spear right in the saran-wrap that spreads from ear, to windpipe, covering the carotid artery pulse point.

But that's my own wierdness...I could be wrong.

Regards,

Dave


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## Carol (Jun 24, 2006)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> The left hand returns to the left hip, but it is in open hand position, not the cocked fist that we used in the 1's.


 
Gotcha.  My mind is a bit of a sieve on some of these details.  



> We learn the handsword as a slicing handsword on a diagonal downward angle. The action of the chop, slices the hand toward the right hip, which also torques the body for the forward bow.


 
I don't think I'm doing the same...this sounds interesting.  



> I don't know what your term 'shotgun' describes (3a), we perform a rather ordinary heelpalm strike.


 
I messed up my shotgun strikes a couple of times, my instructor said a heelpalm was acceptable too.  

I haven't heard the term shotgun outside of my school.  It's a spearing strike with the palm horizontal and the fingers splayed.  If you do Circling Wings like I do, immediatlely upon spinning around, we execute this strike to the eyes with the left hand.



> I think you are correct, in that 4a, the finger poke is a less effective weapon than a punch. Although, this strike might be effective when considering the range.


 
Ahhh....I didn't think about the range.  Thank you very much.  

Greatly appreciated, Mike :asian:


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## Carol (Jun 24, 2006)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I learned the old way years ago before the current way had a few modifications to the technique.
> 
> The spearhand goes upward under the ribs, and believe me, it will hurt if the target is aimed for correctly with torque for power.
> 
> - Ceicei


 
Now that is something that I'd like to take up more with my instructor.  I think I'll need a point of refernce on the body to understand this better.   Thanks!


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## Carol (Jun 24, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Before I start a diatribe, are you more interested in a progressive answer that's applications based, or in one that supports the "traditional" core database of kenpo. They differ. Particularly if you're willing to bend the rules a bit, there are some fun things you can do with this.


 
My school, for better or worse,  is not traditional.  I'm up for learning either and both.  



> Incidently, the left hand checking at the right shoulder should return to the shoulder with some authority as a slap-check. Progressive or not.
> 
> Some schools, realizing that not everyone will have the finger strength, thickness, or development as some of the older brutes in the system, have modified it to either an inward palm-heel strike, or a an upward rising rigid-hand strike to the groin.


 
I don't quite follow.  Left hand checking at the right shoulder?  





> Are they pure? The way it is written in the manuals? Nope. But are you interested in either conditining your fingers to become weapons (lots of finger press-ups, spearing buckets of rice or sand, etc.), or breaking them on the vertical spear hand in the middle of a self-defense scenario, effectively losing the use of your right hand while in the middle of needing it really really badly?
> 
> While I do not ascribe to purist kenpo, having decided *personally* that much of it is fluff and filler to appease the consumer masses, I do believe that practicing SOME of the forms is a great way to program some of the more important options into muscle memory. I think the master movements in this first part are worth engraining. I do not think most practitioners have any businesss training that spearhand. I have done the silly conditioning, and can spear a guy in the abdomen without breaking my hand. Still, I wouldn't do it. Why chance that this one time, I may have the angle wrong? What if I tear off a fingernail on a piece of clothing? (that stuff hurts)


 
That was my concern as well. I can see Mike's point about how the strike could come in handy at close range, and I can see logic in learning how to do the strike properly.  But the risk-benefit ratio of making such a strike just does not seem favorable.  Breaking my nails doesn't faze me.  Breaking a finger does.




> Personally, when I train this form, I angle that final vertical spearhand up and in a bit, to the carotid triangle. I can ride the angle of the attackers forearms up to that target, and find the sweet spot, even while their hands are up to cover their face...no one instinctively covers their face by making their elbows touch accross the front of their body, and that leaves the opening and angle for planting a re-inforced 4-finger spear right in the saran-wrap that spreads from ear, to windpipe, covering the carotid artery pulse point.
> 
> But that's my own wierdness...I could be wrong.
> 
> ...


 
I do appreciate it very much :asian:  I hope you don't mind if I drop you a PM when your description sinks in a little more.  

Carol


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## KOROHO (Jun 24, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> While the right spearhand is executed to the solar plexus, does the left hand return to check position?
> 
> How practical is the spearhand strike? I guess I could see it useful on the eyes. I'm sure a spearhand to the solar plexus would hurt, but it sees as if there would also be a risk of jamming up my own fingers in the process. Would there ever be a case where the a spearhand is used instead of a punch?
> Thanks :asian:


A) In a "kata" situation, I would say yes, do the check.  It's good practice.  In a real situation, it's situational.  A check is a good idea, but there may be another attack coming that warrants a different move.

B) The spearhand is very effective to softer parts of the body - eyes, throat, etc.  But to the body, you will need very strong and highly conditioned fingers.  This is where your "fingertip pushups" come in.  Also, you will see people developing this by driving thier hands into bins of rice, beans, sand and even perhaps stones, to accomplish the conditioning.
If you want to forge your body into that kind of weapon it's ok, but it comes with a price later on - arthritis, etc.  This is not necessary though.  Just develop the good form and reasonably strong hands and use the spearhand to softer parts of the body.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 24, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> I don't quite follow. Left hand checking?


 
As the right hand in the 4a moves into whatever weapon you opt for, slap the front of your right deltoid with your left hand, bringing it straight there from the shotgun/palm heel. You can also do this same thing when you throw the initial inward block.

Regards,

Dave

PS -- There are some branches of kenpo, started by students of Mr. Parker, that stress a different approach to "advanced" material. In many schools, you know you're getting the advanced stuff, because when you were a yellow belt, you did 3-5 move techniques, and now...as a black belt...your techniques are 15-25 moves long. In (how to best put this) MANY of the splinter factions, "more" was replaced with a concept of "better". In other words, you might learn the same techniques you had in white through blue, but you would learn how to sophisticate the basics, making your kenpo more lethal and economic. The phases -- solid, liquid, gasseous -- get addressed specifically, each time you revisit old techs. Kenpo is supposed to start with mechanical basics. In the language metaphor used by Mr. Parker, you learn phonetics by modeling, then learn to print, assigning a symbolic value to the letter. After block printing, you move on to handwriting. If you stay with this course, you move on to shorthand.

Some, but not all, mainstream kenpo halls start with shorthand, rounding corners before the student has had a chance to learn the strength that comes from printing., or the fluidity of perpetual motion that comes from handwriting. Kenpo techniques are supposed to illustrate concepts; or, better yet, they are supposed to be the embodiment of concepts that drive the developing understanding of a student as they grow in the system. Two important parts of that growth are Tailoring and Sophistication. In the less-obedient sub-systems, tailoring is to modify the content of the technique to something that works for you. I.e., spearhand no good? Switch to punch, palm, differnt target, whatever. The forms are also supposed to provide you a template for sophisticating your basics through shorthand, AFTER you nail them in print and script.

Example: While that block is on it's way to the target, why not open/oblongate the elipses of the path a bit to include a raking hammerfist? Why not include some frictional drag/pull along the attacking arm while you pull to chamber for the outward handsword, messing with his balance a tad and tugging him in to the upcoming outward handsword? Or experiment with rebounding the block off his arm, and into his own jaw as you take an alternative path to your ear with your right hand before you perform the handsword? There is a tendency by some to say, "but that ain't the way it sez to in the gospel of (insert senior's name about here)." Yet, each of these is a variation discussed by Mr. Parker in various seminars or classes. 

The forms are suggestions, informed by concepts. If the literal application is silly, or constitutes a liability, change it. It's no longer Parkers kenpo...it's YOUR kenpo. The Old Man ain't gonna be there to fight your fight for you, so you have to make the material your own. Be a proud kenpo heretic, knowing Mr. P preferred thinking dissent over non-thinking obedience to a pre-fab template. Most folk just never had the stones to offer WHY they changed something to his face; but the storybooks are full of incidences when he modified something based on intelligent input from practitioners on the road and abroad.

Glad to see you questioning, and personally convinced that doing so has the old man smiling,

Dave


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## Carol (Jun 25, 2006)

KOROHO said:
			
		

> A) In a "kata" situation, I would say yes, do the check. It's good practice. In a real situation, it's situational. A check is a good idea, but there may be another attack coming that warrants a different move.
> 
> B) The spearhand is very effective to softer parts of the body - eyes, throat, etc. But to the body, you will need very strong and highly conditioned fingers. This is where your "fingertip pushups" come in. Also, you will see people developing this by driving thier hands into bins of rice, beans, sand and even perhaps stones, to accomplish the conditioning.
> If you want to forge your body into that kind of weapon it's ok, but it comes with a price later on - arthritis, etc. This is not necessary though. Just develop the good form and reasonably strong hands and use the spearhand to softer parts of the body.


 
Thank you so very much Jim!  :asian:  

That is some great advice.   My hands are reasonably strong, mostly from work.  At the same time, I think it's why I'm a bit protective of my fingers


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## Carol (Jun 25, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> The forms are suggestions, informed by concepts. If the literal application is silly, or constitutes a liability, change it. It's no longer Parkers kenpo...it's YOUR kenpo. The Old Man ain't gonna be there to fight your fight for you, so you have to make the material your own. Be a proud kenpo heretic, knowing Mr. P preferred thinking dissent over non-thinking obedience to a pre-fab template. Most folk just never had the stones to offer WHY they changed something to his face; but the storybooks are full of incidences when he modified something based on intelligent input from practitioners on the road and abroad.


 
Kenpo heretic is fine, Kenpo idiot is not...it truly does help to have the input to help me understand I make the changes I do...and understand that the changes are sound. I really appreciate the input a lot.




			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Glad to see you questioning, and personally convinced that doing so has the old man smiling,


 
I'm floored, and a choked up by your kind words sir.  Thank you so much :asian:


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## kenpohack (Jun 26, 2006)

I probably would not use a spearhand in a fight, but that's just me. I've seen people break two boards at once with a spearhand. It's not my favorite strike. Remember, Five Swords uses a palm strike and uppercut for the same basic sequence of motion. I think the form is just trying to teach options. However, if the spearhand was delivered to the intercostal spaces in the ribs, it's quite painful. 

Forms are designed to by encyclopedias of motion. They are catalouguing motion and teaching various options or variations not discussed in techniques. The second sequence to long 2, the punches off to 3 and 9 O'clock are just extrapolations on Shield and Mace. I hope this helps.


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