# Testing Criteria



## Shotokan Seishin (Mar 16, 2016)

For the instructors out there....how do you conduct you best tests?

I've become quite disgusted over the last number of years with the downhill slide of the Shotokan karate school I used to belong to. The organization seems to have spiraled from a decent club to not much more than a belt factory. I saw instances where the examiners would test 12 or more people at one time, assistant instructors would desperately be in the hallways trying to teach children their kata moves before their tests, and people who didn't even train would be able to advance through the ranks. It was pretty bad.

Now that I'm an instructor myself and am able to give belt tests I would like to hear how other instructors conduct their tests. I want to upgrade my program but have had little experience from outside the Shotokan grading system and want to explore ways to make belt tests better.

How long do your tests take?
How are they conducted?
Is there a fitness component?
How many people do you test at once?
Do you require/take attendance form classes?
How do you tell someone who wants to test that they are not ready.
How do you tell someone they have failed without causing too much discouragement?

Lots of questions, but I plan to do a much better job as a sensei than my previous instructors.

Thank you,
UC


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 16, 2016)

Urban Coyote said:


> How long do your tests take?



Depends. The lower the rank, the shorter the test. Going to 9th geup might take 10 minutes. 1st Dan might take a couple hours.



Urban Coyote said:


> How are they conducted?



There are one or more judges, who watch the student perform the material they are expected to know, and score them on a 1-10 scale. A 6 or higher is required to promote.
The material includes forms, sparring, self defense, history, vocabulary, answering some questions that are on the back of the promotion form, and answering "on the spot" questions from the judge(s).



Urban Coyote said:


> Is there a fitness component?



No. If they can keep up in class, they're fine. We see no reason to sit around and watch someone do sit ups.



Urban Coyote said:


> How many people do you test at once?



Nobody judges more than one student at a time, and for Dan ranks there will be at least two judges per student. If there's more people testing than there are judging (which happens fairly often with lower belts) then they test in groups.



Urban Coyote said:


> Do you require/take attendance form classes?



Students sign in. We give the sign in sheets to the Y. They compare them to make sure people are paying their dues. 



Urban Coyote said:


> How do you tell someone who wants to test that they are not ready.



By telling them "You're not ready yet." and then telling them explicitly WHY they're not ready, and what they need to do to become ready.



Urban Coyote said:


> How do you tell someone they have failed without causing too much discouragement?



Nobody fails. We don't really have tests so much as demonstrations. Our students know that they are tested in every single class. When they are performing at the level expected for the next higher rank, they are invited to demonstrate that to the rest of the class. If, for some reason, they cannot do the demonstration at an acceptable level, their promotion is "pending" until they complete whatever portion they struggled with. I've only ever seen this happen when someone struggles with the mandatory breaks. Each rank is expected to break one (or more, if they choose) standard 1" boards with a specified technique or techniques. If time allows, higher geup ranks can do optional breaks as well, because breaking is fun. Dan ranks choose their own breaks. 9th geup, for example, only requires a break with a step behind side kick.
We do not use the little 3-4" strips of 1/4" waferboard for breaks, so sometimes smaller and younger students struggle. They all get it. We just keep trying, every class, till they do. A good lesson in perseverance.


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## marques (Mar 16, 2016)

Lower ranks (like yellow belt), just announced by the instructor.
Intermediate ranks, just observed and evaluated while training, by a few advanced black belts.
Advanced ranks (close to or black belt), written assignments, written tests, light combat combat, 'KO' combat.


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## Buka (Mar 17, 2016)

I'm going to give you a long winded, detailed answer (opinion) as to how I was tested back in the days of dinosaurs, up to and including how we tested others moving forward from the seventies. Off to work now, then class tonight.

I applaud your intent to improve things. Because it's all about the students. I've found that _IF_ there's going to be testing, students want it to be memorable and something they're proud of.


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## Shotokan Seishin (Mar 17, 2016)

Buka said:


> I'm going to give you a long winded, detailed answer (opinion) as to how I was tested back in the days of dinosaurs, up to and including how we tested others moving forward from the seventies. Off to work now, then class tonight.
> 
> I applaud your intent to improve things. Because it's all about the students. I've found that _IF_ there's going to be testing, students want it to be memorable and something they're proud of.



Thanks Buka, I'd love to hear your thoughts and ideas on the topic....the more long winded the better sometimes


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## MI_martialist (Mar 17, 2016)

What is the purpose of the test?  Is the test for the student or is it to test and see if the instructor adequately and appropriately conveyed the curriculum that is needed?  It the student cannot perform the curriculum, the instructor fails.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 17, 2016)

MI_martialist said:


> What is the purpose of the test?  Is the test for the student or is it to test and see if the instructor adequately and appropriately conveyed the curriculum that is needed?  It the student cannot perform the curriculum, the instructor fails.



I'm going to raise the BS flag on this. I've successfully trained an awful lot of people, both in MA and medical circles. I can teach you how to break someones larynx with an arc hand strike, and then do a cricothyrotomy to save their life. I know how to convey the material. But if you don't practice (or study) then you're not going to be able to perform the material/absorb the knowledge. That's not my fault.
The idea that it's the teachers fault when the student fails is utter nonsense.


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## MI_martialist (Mar 17, 2016)

I find the conclusions that are automatically drawn to be rather amusing and entertaining.  Who said that a student gets tested when the student is not ready?  Who says a student is asked to test if they haven't practiced or trained?  What I am saying is that if a student cannot test, a student who should be ready to be tested and pass, the way the curriculum is delivered needs to be looked at.

I never said that there were no criteria that would make a student eligible to test in the first place.



Dirty Dog said:


> I'm going to raise the BS flag on this. I've successfully trained an awful lot of people, both in MA and medical circles. I can teach you how to break someones larynx with an arc hand strike, and then do a cricothyrotomy to save their life. I know how to convey the material. But if you don't practice (or study) then you're not going to be able to perform the material/absorb the knowledge. That's not my fault.
> The idea that it's the teachers fault when the student fails is utter nonsense.


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## Shotokan Seishin (Mar 17, 2016)

What's the purpose of the test? I've thought that over an awful lot the last few years. After observing the complete lack of standards of the previous dojo and how everyone and their dog was able to progress through the ranks I've honestly wondered what the point was. If there are no standards to be held to in regard to physical ability, then what's the point in having a belt system at all? Some argue that with traditional martial arts it's not only about the physical ability to perform techniques, but also personal development. The only problem is there is no measuring stick for 'personal development' other than the completely ambiguous opinion of the instructor, and then it seems to end up being nothing more than who can suck up to the sensei the most. If there are no standards to the physical aspect of the martial art, and 'personal development' is an unmeasurable trait, then what's the point in holding a test at all? Unfortunately the answer in many cases is money ..... and that really is what it comes down to in these belt factory type schools. 

Anyway....that's my rant for the day. 

For me I hope to make tests about plotting the 'physical' progress of each individual student through the curriculum. To get through the curriculum they'll have to show physical improvements in their abilities. One of the tough aspects to get around today is that many younger people want immediate gratification, so if they do no progress at the same rate as their peers they tend to get discouraged. The simple fact is not everyone is ready to test at the same time. How do you test those who are ready without discouraging those who are not?

As an instructor I feel it's my job to assist each student as best I can and help support them on their learning path. It can be tricky when it comes to testing and you have students who are committed to training, yet don't have natural athletic ability, or struggle in some other area.

Case in point, I have two members who started at the same time, train pretty much equally and they are feiends with each other. One will be ready to test soon, yet the other will not. The one who is not ready to test simply does not have a lot of athletic ability and struggles to make improvements. It's not that they don't try, they just are not there yet. I want to be able to advance the one members without discouraging the other. Not such an easy thoing to do sometimes.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 17, 2016)

MI_martialist said:


> What is the purpose of the test?  Is the test for the student or is it to test and see if the instructor adequately and appropriately conveyed the curriculum that is needed?  It the student cannot perform the curriculum, the instructor fails.


I will agree in a sense. If there is a timeline (ex: you stay at 7th kyu for five months then test) then that is unreasonable and should not be placed on the instructor. If, however, it is up to the instructor to decide when to test, they are the ones who fail if the student fails. Not failing as an instructor, but failing as an evaluator of the students ability to take the test. Essentially they are failing, but not failing as the instructor, and the student will just have to test later when the instructor revises his evaluation and deems the student is ready to try again. No real losers here, just a delay.

This is coming from someone who both failed tests as a child because I lacked maturity (completely true), and had instructors delay my testing longer than I deemed warranted (maybe true?) because they didn't want me to fail at a testing again.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 17, 2016)

Urban Coyote said:


> How long do your tests take?
> How are they conducted?
> Is there a fitness component?
> How many people do you test at once?
> ...


I like what you're trying to do, going to give answers based on my main art.
1) They take an hour, until you're close to black belt. Those are an hour and a half-2 hours. At blackbelt, for that school it was anywhere from 5-8 hours, and multiple day testings for 2nd dan and above (according to the stories...) In the other school, the testing was very lax. It was run by two people, so if they thought you were ready to advance, they gave a brief test to make sure you understood the material, and had you spar someone at that rank. My black belt test for them was probably less than an hour: they had decided together that I had earned a black belt in that style, and the person who came in to observe the testing (not sure if this was required or just by chance) had come by multiple times in the previous months, so he had probably discussed the decision with them as well beforehand.

2)For the first one yes, the second no. If they're able to keep up in class, I see no reason for it, but that depends partially on the style.

3) As I'm not an instructor, no, and I never saw a point in doing this. If they come to class they will learn the material, if they don't they won't. The only times I can see a need is for some schools that offer discount/raised prices depending on the amount of classes attended in a week/month.

4) Tell them why they are not ready. If it's technique-related, ask them to demonstrate the techniques, then show them why you think they are not ready. If it's skill related (Ie: sparring is a part of the curriculum, and they are bad with sparring) tell them what they need to work on before testing. Remember, you are the instructor, so it is your decision, not theirs, to decide when they are ready.

5) What my school did, where I failed, was they had everyone close their eyes and each student come up one at a time. If they passed, they gave them the new certificate, and put the new belt on them. If they failed (and I only know this because I failed, if I had not I likely would never have discovered) they give you a blank certificate and don't change your belt. Theoretically (and what happened) was that because the belts were taken off so quickly afterwards while ending the test and all the students were distracted, they did not notice. This gives the student time to decide how to handle the situation for the next class, when they come in wearing the old belt.

This is all IMHO, but I hope it helps.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 18, 2016)

MI_martialist said:


> It the student cannot perform the curriculum, the instructor fails.


As a general rule of thumb if one or two students out of many fail the test it is probably the student. If all of the students fail the test it is probably the instructor.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 18, 2016)

MI_martialist said:


> What I am saying is that if a student cannot test, a student who should be ready to be tested and pass, the way the curriculum is delivered needs to be looked at.


Not necessarily. I have seen countless students who were ready to pass a test a night or two before only to fall apart on the actual test day.


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## JR 137 (Mar 18, 2016)

MI_martialist said:


> What is the purpose of the test?  Is the test for the student or is it to test and see if the instructor adequately and appropriately conveyed the curriculum that is needed?  It the student cannot perform the curriculum, the instructor fails.



Being a teacher (middle school science, not MA), I've got to disagree and agree.  I know, I sound like a politician...

The expression "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink " rears its head at me daily.  And I say it to coworkers almost daily.  You do everything you can to prepare the students, give them homework to reinforce it, even give them one on one help.  If they've done everything they've been asked, did it correctly, and still failed, then it's on me.  If they didn't, it's on them.  Everyone fails a test or two in their lifetime.

The MA is different, but it's got a lot of similarities.  But I strongly believe a student shouldn't be allowed to test if they haven't earned the promotion beforehand.  If the teacher knows the student has no chance of passing, yet lets them test anyway, the teacher failed.

In 8 years of karate, I've never seen a student fail a promotional test.  My former Sensei and current Sensei have the belief that you're invited to test, you don't ask to test.  You've already earned the promotion, the test is basically formality.

They both said they've had a student or two fail a test over the years.  The students either gave up or did something disrespectful.

When a student freezes under the pressure, they're taken aside, given a few minutes and/or a pep talk, and allowed to pick up where they left off.  If they still can't go on, after a few tries, then they'll test again within a few days or so.

I have however seen plenty of people that weren't invited to test even though they had the minimum number of classes and time in rank completed.  Some have left because of it, so tried to go over the sensei's head to their teacher.  Neither approach got them tested.


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## pgsmith (Mar 18, 2016)

Urban Coyote said:


> For me I hope to make tests about plotting the 'physical' progress of each individual student through the curriculum. To get through the curriculum they'll have to show physical improvements in their abilities. One of the tough aspects to get around today is that many younger people want immediate gratification, so if they do no progress at the same rate as their peers they tend to get discouraged. The simple fact is not everyone is ready to test at the same time. How do you test those who are ready without discouraging those who are not?
> 
> As an instructor I feel it's my job to assist each student as best I can and help support them on their learning path. It can be tricky when it comes to testing and you have students who are committed to training, yet don't have natural athletic ability, or struggle in some other area.
> 
> Case in point, I have two members who started at the same time, train pretty much equally and they are feiends with each other. One will be ready to test soon, yet the other will not. The one who is not ready to test simply does not have a lot of athletic ability and struggles to make improvements. It's not that they don't try, they just are not there yet. I want to be able to advance the one members without discouraging the other. Not such an easy thoing to do sometimes.



  My two cents worth (or two yen since I practice Japanese arts) ...
  If they cannot physically perform to the standards required, they should not be promoted, or even asked to test. It should be made very clear to them *why* they aren't being asked to test and what they have to work on. Everybody progresses at their own pace.

  Here's an interesting test method for you. I used to practice Shin Shin ryu iaijutsu, a classical (koryu) Japanese sword art from the early 1600's. The first six forms that were taught to everyone were used for testing. Only those six forms, and the same forms for every belt rank. The head of our branch of the school would come over once a year from Japan, and bring at least one of his senior instructors. They would sit with the US head instructor and watch the tests, which were performed by belt rank, and take notes. Then they would compare notes after all were done and decide which didn't perform and move the way they thought they should for the belt rank they were hoping to achieve. The instructors for those who did not passed were taken aside and told what the failing students needed to work on and what they thought was needed to get them to where they should be.

  They're the only group that does it like that as far as I've ever known, but it seemed to work out really well for them. Of course, the testing for menkyo (teaching level certificates) was much different.

  There's another Japanese sword group that I'm familiar with called Seizankai out of Machida, Japan.. They have the completely opposite approach where their tests are clearly stated what is required for each belt level, but their standards are very high. Everything that is required for a particular rank has to be done perfectly or you don't pass. They only test like twice a year (if I remember right) but most people that test will fail.

  It all depends upon what the organization that grants the ranks is looking for. If it's just within your school, then you should sit down and write out exactly what it is that you expect for each rank so you can be consistent over time.

  Those are my opinions, worth what you paid for them.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 18, 2016)

No tests, and everything is a test. 

There are basic criteria, but merely meeting them does not ensure promotion.

When our sensei has decided to promote someone, he does. There is never a question that the person is qualified when promoted.

Why have tests?


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## Shotokan Seishin (Mar 18, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Why have tests?



I feel tests are a good way to teach students to overcome their emotional doubts and perform when required. Being put 'on the spot' during a test allows a student to develop confidence in themselves in the face of a tough situation. It's a good life skill to have. By testing, competing and becoming an instructor I've learned to overcome anxiety, nerves and self doubts and put my best foot forward. That's why I believe testing has benefits. I guess this is one of the few things that falls under the 'personal development' aspect of martial arts.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 18, 2016)

Urban Coyote said:


> I feel tests are a good way to teach students to overcome their emotional doubts and perform when required. Being put 'on the spot' during a test allows a student to develop confidence in themselves in the face of a tough situation. It's a good life skill to have. By testing, competing and becoming an instructor I've learned to overcome anxiety, nerves and self doubts and put my best foot forward. That's why I believe testing has benefits. I guess this is one of the few things that falls under the 'personal development' aspect of martial arts.



I'll go along with that. But here's the thing. Whether they pass or fail the test, you already know where they are and what they can or can't do; you've been watching them.

So what is the purpose of the test again? If they fail to do some required thing, but you know they can do it because you've seen them do it, what purpose does it serve to fail them?  And you promote them anyway on that basis, again, the test served no purpose.

If you stress them because you think stress is good for their development, I get it. I don't know that it's a valid criteria for promotion.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 18, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'll go along with that. But here's the thing. Whether they pass or fail the test, you already know where they are and what they can or can't do; you've been watching them.
> 
> So what is the purpose of the test again? If they fail to do some required thing, but you know they can do it because you've seen them do it, what purpose does it serve to fail them?  And you promote them anyway on that basis, again, the test served no purpose.
> 
> ...



Because "testing" - or a demo to the class, as we do it - can be a fond memory for some students, especially younger students or those hitting a "milestone" rank, such as 1st Dan.
Mind you, I'm good with the "Hey, you're promoted" method too. My own instructors last two promotions have been of that nature.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 19, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Because "testing" - or a demo to the class, as we do it - can be a fond memory for some students, especially younger students or those hitting a "milestone" rank, such as 1st Dan.


Not to mention that it is good to see how the student performs under some pressure.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 19, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Not to mention that it is good to see how the student performs under some pressure.



Sure. Although I am not at all sure the pressure of testing can even remotely be considered comparable to the pressure of a real attack.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 19, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. Although I am not at all sure the pressure of testing can even remotely be considered comparable to the pressure of a real attack.


Who said irt did?


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## Shotokan Seishin (Mar 19, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'll go along with that. But here's the thing. Whether they pass or fail the test, you already know where they are and what they can or can't do; you've been watching them.
> 
> If you stress them because you think stress is good for their development, I get it. I don't know that it's a valid criteria for promotion.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.



Because the test is not about 'me' and what I know, it's about them and their ability to perform when required. Life doesn't give you chance after chance after chance a lot of times. If you're a student defending your honours thesis it doesn't matter how many times you perfectly rehearsed it at home in front of your friends or parents.....it's about how you perform in front of your peers and professors on that one chance that you have. If you mess up your fail....period. You have one chance and you have to nail it. Martial arts testing is a good way to help a student prepare for similar situations mentally. 

There is also the aspect that a student has to show emotional maturity regardless if they pass or fail. If they storm off due to failing then they have a lot of work to do, if they brag and strut after passing, then they might not be asked to test again any time soon


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## Shotokan Seishin (Mar 19, 2016)

I also forgot to add that I might not be the only one evaluating during a test....so a student might have to stand up to standards of other equivalent instructors.

As for Dirt Dogs comment, as the OP of this thread I do not want it to go in the direction of those discussions...it'll just derail the topic of the thread.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 20, 2016)

Testing is in every class the entire class.  Mess up, goof of, fail to pay aattention and more then likely you'll not be promoted.  
for kids:
I test once or twice a year and do not always tell students its a test.  Sometimes it is a picnic with class before we eat. Sometimes it is a visit to a friends class and we take part but I'm really testing and so are the other people there.
The last time I told the students they where testing only one preformed to any standard that would be acceptible to anyone. The others screwed up their forms, did not know basic knowledge of the system ( hell 1/2 could not eeven name the system)/\.
Did those students ever study at home ( I doubt it)  where they told the answers to the questions I asked before hand ( many times, but I doubt the listened)

for adults:  I think they should say " damn that was one hell of a test and a killer workout"
they should be happy the test is over and so darn proud of getting though it and overjoyed at passing.
Most adults pass as I have evaluated them for mounths and pretty well know their good and bad points. If they have listened and try to correct things they have been told to and show proper spirt commradship to other students, and work till the end of the test I'm satisfied.

What do students need to know for my tests:  everything taught as cirriculum up to that point ( not just from their last test)  they will have to have listened in class as background information and history is stated off and and throughout their classes ( more than once)

again I apologise for misspelled words my spell check is not working


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## mixedup (Mar 21, 2016)

I train with two very different clubs, one which has the McDojo reputation, and the other which is undoubtedly legit. I think the McDojo label was given to GKR back in the day when very low grades were given instructor belts and asked to open dojos. I can't speak for other places, but here in Auckland that's not commonplace at all. They do issue instructor belts, but they must work as sempai for a long time before being allowed to run a dojo, by which time they are very close to shodan themselves. From memory they must train once a week in a regular class, once a week with the black belt class, and sempai one class per week, as a minimum.  

Grading here is conducted monthly in front of a panel of around 6-8 senior black belts (not  kyu grade instructors). Depending on numbers and grades, the session will be split into groups. All grades will show basic kihon together, and each group will be tested for their kata and advanced kihon relevant to their grade. The first grading is a given, and the test is really just to see that the student is trying and not messing around. From that point on, the gradings get longer, harder, and more picky.

My ten year old daughter recently failed her 5th kyu grading because her kata (Saifa) wasn't up to scratch. Most people fail their first attempt at 5th kyu, as it is the "perfection" grade, if you will. There are no new techniques, no new kata between 6th and 5th, it's just refinement, refinement, and more refinement. I was watching from nearby, and although this may sound like a doting dad, her hand techniques looked better than the nidan stood directly in front of her. The kicks not so much. She was testing alone, as the highest grade. All of the grading panel had scored her basics as excellent, and several parents came over to comment on how good she looked. Unfortunately for her, when she came to kata, it was all eyes on her, and a few old habits snuck in. According to the man in charge, she needs to wait a minimum of two months to iron out the flaws before trying again.

I also train with a local Kyokushin club, where it appears that lower level grades are awarded when students reach the required standard in class. As I'm only a visitor, I haven't yet signed up to start the journey with them yet, but that will happen soon.


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