# CAR Center Axis retention



## Troy Ostapiw/Canada (Jul 15, 2005)

Has anyone heard of the CAR system of shooting?  It stands for Center axis relock.  Let me know what your thoughts are on the program ect.  All imput is great imput good or bad.


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## Cruentus (Jul 15, 2005)

I was very skeptical about the method until I had the opportunity to train with it some.

I would say that it has its merits. It is good for cases in which there is limited mobility, such as in vehicles, in tight spaces, etc.

BE CAREFUL THOUGH.

Many people teach hybrids of this system incorrectly, or what I believe is incorrect from what the founder of the system had in mind.

Under stress, the mind reacts differently even then in training. The mind won't allow you to do complex "split" actions under stress. So you won't be able to "push with one hand, pull with another," for example. It is shown through scenario tapes that even those trained in a weaver method where the gun hand pushes and the support hand pulls for stability end up under combat stress resorting to both hands extending out as FAR AS THEY CAN.

This is important to note because both hands can extend out, both hands can pull in, but one will have difficulty trying to shoot with any level of accuracy push-pulling in a gunfight.

So if one is training the CAR method, both hands should be pulling IN....no push pull. I was in disagreement with this method until this was properly explained to me by a qualified profesisonal who trained the method.

Hope that makes sense...

 

Paul


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## Troy Ostapiw/Canada (Jul 15, 2005)

Yes it Does, Great program for police as they often find themselves in tight situations and confined spaces. examples houses, cars, hallways.  The program seem very practical and tactical, great retention, and good reactions to bad situations example the pistol punch ect.  I haven't read the review in SWAT yet, but I'm looking forward to it.  Did you Take the program from Paul Castle?

All thought and opinions would be great.  Troy


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## Cruentus (Jul 15, 2005)

I did not learn from Mr. Castle, no. I learned about it from a couple of LE trainers here in Michigan who adopted aspects of the method for their departments; I believe they have learned it from Mr. Castle.

All this said, I don't agree that this is the end all be all system, as many CAR proponents espouse. I read the review in SWAT, and the author agree's on this as well. Usually, my personal preferance would be simple 1 handed threat focused shooting any day. Then again, I am not a SWAT officer constrained by body armor and tight spaces who goes into the fray with overwhelming numbers behind him and the preperation before hand to handle the threat.

If I get shot at, it will most likely be spontanious, I will not have numbers on my side, and most likely won't be in body armor. 

So, to each his own....as different methods seem to apply to different circumstances...

 :asian: 

Paul


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## Tgace (Jul 15, 2005)

Ehhh.."method schmetod". Shoot him before he shoots you in whatever method you can do it best in IMO. Try em all and see what you can do.


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## Tgace (Jul 15, 2005)

Reinforcing movement and cover is probably the #1 thing to remember. 

Im of the opinion that a large chunk of the "selling" of these different methods starts out as carving out a market niche 90% of the time. Theres $$ to be made in seminars, books, etc. Not that each one doesnt have their points to be made, but none are the end all, be all.


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## Cruentus (Jul 15, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Reinforcing movement and cover is probably the #1 thing to remember.
> 
> Im of the opinion that a large chunk of the "selling" of these different methods starts out as carving out a market niche 90% of the time. Theres $$ to be made in seminars, books, etc. Not that each one doesnt have their points to be made, but none are the end all, be all.



Good points, Tom. Sometimes simple is best, but not everyone can make the $$ off simple.

I am starting my own system, soon to be at a seminar near you...called RAWS...Running Away While Shooting....the book and DVD will be out next week for only $59.99. :rofl: (Now watch this end up on a different forum from someone taking me too seriously...  :uhyeah: )

Paul


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## Cruentus (Jul 15, 2005)

For those interested in reading up...

Here is some good info on the system, straight from the source:

http://www.sabretactical.com/C_A_R_/c_a_r_.html

Paul


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## rutherford (Jul 15, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Ehhh.."method schmetod". Shoot him before he shoots you in whatever method you can do it best in IMO. Try em all and see what you can do.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Not that each one doesnt have their points to be made, but none are the end all, be all.



Do you have any thoughts on why?  Do you think this ties into Tulisan's comments on the way people react under stress?


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## Troy Ostapiw/Canada (Jul 15, 2005)

Yes, I do agree that one should look at various systems, master the basics first, then expand.  As a system I think CAR is very good, and easialy taught.  I do wear body armour, and usaly have back-up close by or right behind me.  In the long run I belive the  serious shooter develops their own methods.  I like the JKD approach to shooting, CAR is a good base, tactical, practical and easily taught.


It seems better developed than the other basic shooting programs I have seen.
great points guys.  So what do you do for a living?

Cheers Troy


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## Tgace (Jul 15, 2005)

I think it has to do with training and practice. 

Id wager that if I shot day in and day out holding the weapon over my head and sideways while firing with my pinky finger, I could make up some sort of philosophy as to why this was "tactically superior", wow people with some nice videos, and get on the "tactical guru" circut.

If you have some basic training in pistolcraft and are reasonably consistent in your results, stick with it. Changes should be like chipping away at a sculpture, not tossing the canvass out and restarting everytime a new movement comes down the line. Not that you cant research and study different "movements" and incorporate them...many of these aimed/point/CAR/Modern Isosceles/one hand/two hand debates approach the realm of religion or politics at points.

It aint rocket science.


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## Tgace (Jul 15, 2005)

IMO most people could benefit more from refining their grip, trigger squeeze and weapon manipulation skills than they would worrying about which "school" is better than the other. 

I prefer to look at these different methods in the same way we look at "stances" in the martial arts.


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## Jerry (Jul 18, 2005)

> I am starting my own system, soon to be at a seminar near you...called RAWS...Running Away While Shooting....the book and DVD will be out next week for only $59.99. :rofl: (Now watch this end up on a different forum from someone taking me too seriously... :uhyeah: )


 While I know you are joking, the concept is a pretty good one. The millitary, for example, does teach how to retreat while sustaining fire. The ability to make an opponent have to react to being shot at, possibly shooting said opponent, and gaining range (running away) all at once would be useful indeed... if you can just find a way to do it, I think you would indeed have a business.


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## msneen (Jul 24, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> While I know you are joking, the concept is a pretty good one. The millitary, for example, does teach how to retreat while sustaining fire. The ability to make an opponent have to react to being shot at, possibly shooting said opponent, and gaining range (running away) all at once would be useful indeed... if you can just find a way to do it, I think you would indeed have a business.


RICWS (Running In a Circle While Shooting) is a little more effective if you are alone. Allows you to move in a natural forward motion instead of backpedaling, while making yourself a harder target to hit. Besides, if things really go bad, you are already set up to go to RICSS (Running In a Circle Screaming and Shouting)


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## Cruentus (Jul 25, 2005)

msneen said:
			
		

> RICWS (Running In a Circle While Shooting) is a little more effective if you are alone. Allows you to move in a natural forward motion instead of backpedaling, while making yourself a harder target to hit. Besides, if things really go bad, you are already set up to go to RICSS (Running In a Circle Screaming and Shouting)



I tried the RICWS system, but I ran too fast and shot myself...  :uhyeah:


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## msneen (Jul 25, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I tried the RICWS system, but I ran too fast and shot myself... :uhyeah:


Ahh, yes, running through your own "wake". If you can't run slower, try hotter rounds or a faster caliber ammo. :ultracool


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