# Coronavirus/Covid 19



## ShortBridge (Mar 2, 2020)

What precautions is everyone taking regarding training? It seems that what we do would make for a really good method of transmission.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> What precautions is everyone taking regarding training? It seems that what we do would make for a really good method of transmission.




Same as usual. Nothing different from the good hygiene we usually have.


----------



## geezer (Mar 2, 2020)

Well, there's always hand sanitizer for contact work, and encouraging anybody who thinks that they are sick to stay home. Otherwise you just gotta live your life   ...or possibly  switch to the video-game version of  _ninjutsu:







_


----------



## geezer (Mar 2, 2020)

BTW I read that the first death in the US due to covid 19 was up in your area. Kirkland, I believe. I think about that because my son is next-door in Redmond.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 2, 2020)

That is all.


----------



## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> That is all.



First, you'd have to *be* training to need to take any precautions in your training.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 2, 2020)

geezer said:


> BTW I read that the first death in the US due to covid 19 was up in your area. Kirkland, I believe. I think about that because my son is next-door in Redmond.


Washington has had six now.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 2, 2020)

geezer said:


> BTW I read that the first death in the US due to covid 19 was up in your area. Kirkland, I believe. I think about that because my son is next-door in Redmond.



6 deaths in King County, WA as of today, which I believe is the most in the country. There is a concentration, however, in a single long term facility, so those #s might not tell the whole story. I think we'll all know more over the next week or so.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> First, you'd have to *be* training to need to take any precautions in your training.



You know, suddenly Rat's passion for not training with anyone else is a clear advantage.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 2, 2020)

The New Gi


----------



## Blindside (Mar 2, 2020)

This is why I do weapon arts, so I don't have to like, touch people.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 2, 2020)

My wife won't allow me to go to any Chinese grocery store and Chinese restaurant. There is a Kung Fu tournament next month in Houston. My wife won't let me to go to that tournament.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 2, 2020)

Blindside said:


> This is why I do weapon arts, so I don't have to like, touch people.


Gotta be careful of splashing bodily fluids, tho.


----------



## WaterGal (Mar 2, 2020)

We've had a hand sanitizer dispenser in the school for years, and I stocked up on a couple extra bottles. Other than that, not much. There haven't been any documented cases in my state yet AFAIK.

If it does turn into a pandemic here, and we have to close because of public safety or whatever, we've got enough money saved up to pay the bills for a month.


----------



## jobo (Mar 2, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> What precautions is everyone taking regarding training? It seems that what we do would make for a really good method of transmission.


non at all, the regular old Flu kills upwards of half a million a year, seemingly with out anyone noticing or careing very much. suddenly the worlds gone in to panic over a few thousand deaths.

the death rate apears to be about one%, and then its the ussual suspects the old and those in very poor health. it may be an awful lot less than that as in the vast majority of cases the symptoms are so mild then may not even be noticed as out of the ordinary


----------



## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Today my Master said no more shaking hands after class.  He also stressed that if you feel sick, stay home.  And we've got a public hand sanitizer station now.


----------



## Danny T (Mar 2, 2020)

Nothing different.
We've always requested those sick to please stay away from training until well.
No leaving the restroom without washing your hands.
No bear feet in the restroom.
Please use the Hand sanitizer in several different places in the training center.
Spray all equipment with disinfectant 
Mats are mopped and bags, ground dummies, etc are wiped with antiviral disinfectant multiply times a day


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 2, 2020)

Something I find hilarious about all this is the new focus on handwashing, as if soap is a magical new invention. When everyone should have already been using soap when they wash their hands.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

Danny T said:


> Nothing different.
> We've always requested those sick to please stay away from training until well.
> No leaving the restroom without washing your hands.
> No bear feet in the restroom.
> ...



All things that places should be doing anyway, we're the same as you, not changed anything as hygiene is always a high priority.

If it's taking the threat of an illness to make people clean their mats then I'm glad I didn't train at these places!


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> First, you'd have to *be* training to need to take any precautions in your training.


See, do you think people don't know a snipe when they see one. A spade is a spade. This is a perfect example of how/where you rub people the wrong way.

Don't derail a thread because You have an issue with a poster.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 3, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> 6 deaths in King County, WA as of today, which I believe is the most in the country. There is a concentration, however, in a single long term facility, so those #s might not tell the whole story. I think we'll all know more over the next week or so.


I am Very hopeful most of this is media hype. Washington state had 245 flu related deaths in the 2018/2019 flu season. 
I very sorry for the loss of life and sincerely pray this 'epidemic' quick subsides worldwide.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 3, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> We've had a hand sanitizer dispenser in the school for years, and I stocked up on a couple extra bottles. Other than that, not much. There haven't been any documented cases in my state yet AFAIK.
> 
> If it does turn into a pandemic here, and we have to close because of public safety or whatever, we've got enough money saved up to pay the bills for a month.


This what we are doing. I have made several announcements asking people to make sure they either wash their hands or use sanitizer before/after class.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I am Very hopeful most of this is media hype. Washington state had 245 flu related deaths in the 2018/2019 flu season.
> I very sorry for the loss of life and sincerely pray this 'epidemic' quick subsides worldwide.




Annually seasonal flu kills hundreds of thousands of people, starvation kills hundreds of thousands, outbreaks of cholera, typhoid and typhus in refugee camps kills thousands, suicide in the first world countries kills tens of thousands, cancer kills hundreds of thousands, deaths from preventable diseases are going up through the unwillingness of some to be vaccinated and lots more things can kill us, this latest virus isn't the worst of our worries medically speaking.


----------



## Danny T (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> All things that places should be doing anyway, we're the same as you, not changed anything as hygiene is always a high priority.
> 
> If it's taking the threat of an illness to make people clean their mats then I'm glad I didn't train at these places!


Yes ma'am.
It's shocking how many places allow people to walk in the restrooms barefooted or wear their mat shoes and then return to the mats without any type of sanitizing them!! Then they are rolling or wrestling or doing takesdowns rubbing their faces on the places that have been stepped on by those feet or shoes. We've never allowed shoes that have been worn outside or in the restrooms without being sanitized first onto the mats.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 3, 2020)

There is no reason to do anything different. The things you should have been doing all along are sufficient. You can shake hands after class. Wearing a mask will not in any way prevent you from getting sick.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

Oh for training?   Dont go, simply put.   You would contribute to the problem if you go there while infected (with anything) and if you live in a area with it, you should pretty much be housebond as much as possible.  


I would consider it nonsensical to present any situation where you actively break qurantine or willingly infect yourself.     You shouldnt be doing exercise if you have the flu or flu like symptoms anyway.  

if you dont live in a area where there are repoted cases, then not being a "greb" is what you would do. Clean your hands activitely so fourth.  Other than that buisness as usual.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> Oh for training?   Dont go, simply put.   You would contribute to the problem if you go there while infected (with anything) and if you live in a area with it, you should pretty much be housebond as much as possible.



This, like Martial Arts, is an area in which you have no training or experience, and your advice is worse than useless.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> This, like Martial Arts, is an area in which you have no training or experience, and your advice is worse than useless.



Its not like i psoted anything ground breaking, you should wash your hands anyway, and its status quo as usual unless you live in a area with it. (which i agree with and support as i dont fear monger)


I jsut cant fathom why you would do this if you were genuinly conerned or lived in a area with it in.           I do have to state though, objectively speaking, if you went for total isolation you would reduce the chances of you getting anything tremendiosuly, likewise if you did that and had a CBRN ready home and only left wearing SCBA gear and a suit.


----------



## Cynik75 (Mar 3, 2020)

Change your classes into alkohol-sex orgy in sauna. Alkohol and high temperature kills this virus.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> You know, suddenly Rat's passion for not training with anyone else is a clear advantage.



I just saw this.   And kudos to you sir, thats probbly the most amusing thing i have read.           


I will just wait for everyone else to get sick and rule the world!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

Danny T said:


> No bear feet in the restroom.


This is why bears have to go in the woods.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Something I find hilarious about all this is the new focus on handwashing, as if soap is a magical new invention. When everyone should have already been using soap when they wash their hands.


Folks need to actually wash their hands though, rather than the ritualistic splash most do in public restrooms.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Folks need to actually wash their hands though, rather than the ritualistic splash most do in public restrooms.



I personally ritualstically use the friction drying soap.     Beats the whole having to put your hands up your sleeves and open doors etc after washing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> I personally ritualstically use the friction drying soap.     Beats the whole having to put your hands up your sleeves and open doors etc after washing.


What is friction drying soap?


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> What is friction drying soap?



The gel that you squirt on your hands you just have to rub and it dries.   You dont need to wash it off unlike ordinary soap.


----------



## skribs (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> The gel that you squirt on your hands you just have to rub and it dries.   You dont need to wash it off unlike ordinary soap.



You mean hand sanitizer?  That stuff isn't a replacement for soap, or for washing your hands in warm, running water.  It's more like a supplement.  Just like how you have vitamin supplements available, but you don't replace your whole diet with vitamin tablets. 

We have hand sanitizer all over the hospital where I work, and yet all staff are expected to wash their hands with soap and warm water.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> The gel that you squirt on your hands you just have to rub and it dries.   You dont need to wash it off unlike ordinary soap.


Pretty sure that's hand sanitizer. You should be using actual soap.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Pretty sure that's hand sanitizer. You should be using actual soap.



Dialect problem, its soap/cleaning agent to me.     And it is a anti microbe/bacterial solution.    In other words, it works.


----------



## skribs (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> Dialect problem, its soap/cleaning agent to me.     And it is a anti microbe/bacterial solution.



Once again showing your ignorance with dangerous ideas.  You should be using actual soap.


----------



## Danny T (Mar 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> This is why bears have to go in the woods.


Oops.   Missed the spelling on that. And yes keep those bears out of the restrooms and off of the mats.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 3, 2020)

Interesting development

Per relatives in China...the Coronavirus comes form America
Per other contacts in China....spreading rumors will now get you arrested and.....Truth is what the government tells you it is....that is all


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> Dialect problem, its soap/cleaning agent to me.     And it is a anti microbe/bacterial solution.    In other words, it works.


Yup, that's the same kinda stuff we're talking about. Not as good as soap and warm water.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Yup, that's the same kinda stuff we're talking about. Not as good as soap and warm water.



Putting a better or worse tag on it seems incorrect, they both work.       The gel is far more convient and easier for people to use than soap and water though, by far.    

To get into specfics would be a brand and product by product analysis.        Same way as telling somone who lives in Flint michigan to wash their hands would be a bad idea.


----------



## geezer (Mar 3, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Wearing a mask will not in any way prevent you from getting sick.



Wearing a mask that is thick enough and tight fitting enough to do any good is hot and very uncomfortable for any long period of time and best left to medical personnel who actually need them. At least that is the position of the CDC.

On the other hand, properly used, masks do _potentially_ offer reduced risk of both spreading and contracting  disease, which is why medical personnel use them in the first place.

1. A properly fitted "n95" mask will reduce the likelihood of inhaling the micro-globules or the mist-like droplets of fluid that people expel when they sneeze or cough. Similarly, a mask worn by an infected person may to a limited degree reduce the amount of the virus transmitted into the air.

2. People may be less likely to pass the virus from hand to mouth or nose if there is a mask covering their face.

On the other hand, as the Surgeon General pointed out, the discomfort caused by masks may well result in people fussing with them constantly, thus increasing the amount of contact between hands and face, and quite possibly _increasing_ exposure to the virus. Not to mention that if there is a run on medical masks (like in China) they will be in short supply for the medical practitioners who really need them.

So, in short, I'm just going to forget about masks and just take the simple and commonsense precautions already mentioned. Oh, and of course I'll wearing the outfit pictured below:


----------



## skribs (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> Putting a better or worse tag on it seems incorrect, they both work.       *The gel is far more convient and easier for people to use than soap and water though, by far.    *
> 
> To get into specfics would be a brand and product by product analysis.        Same way as telling somone who lives in Flint michigan to wash their hands would be a bad idea.



You are confusing convenience with effectiveness, something you seem to do a lot.  Just like with training.  It's more convenient to train on your own, thus you think it's just as effective.  It's more convenient to use the gel than actual soap and water, so you say it's just as effective.

The comparison to Flint is unfair, because most places in 1st-world countries have clean running water.  Even if you don't, washing your hands in sterilized water is better than washing your hands with hand sanitizer.  This isn't an opinion.  It's medical fact.

I think it's a good thing you don't train martial arts in a class.  Because your hygiene habits might make it unsafe for others to train with you.  Please note this isn't a joke.  What you are doing is dangerous to those around you.  Dirty hands spread diseases.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

geezer said:


> Not to mention that if there is a run on medical masks (like in China) they will be in short supply for the medical practitioners who really need them.



I am pretty sure hospitals and the like have a **** load of them all ready and would be first come first serve, especially in a emergency.

And this is why you stockpile O2 tanks and buy yourself some SCBA , never know when it can come in handy!


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> Putting a better or worse tag on it seems incorrect, they both work.       The gel is far more convient and easier for people to use than soap and water though, by far.
> 
> To get into specfics would be a brand and product by product analysis.        Same way as telling somone who lives in Flint michigan to wash their hands would be a bad idea.


This is incorrect. Hand sanitizer is less effective than soap and water. Convenience doesn’t play into that, especially when hand washing isn’t a particularly tough or inconvenient thing to do.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> I am pretty sure hospitals and the like have a **** load of them all ready and would be first come first serve, especially in a emergency.
> 
> And this is why you stockpile O2 tanks and buy yourself some SCBA , never know when it can come in handy!


Some hospitals are already running low on them.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> This is incorrect. Hand sanitizer is less effective than soap and water. Convenience doesn’t play into that, especially when hand washing isn’t a particularly tough or inconvenient thing to do.



Given washing stations are located in the toilets, unless you work in a hopstial (where both toilets and gel dispensers are everywhere)   It could become a issue of convience. 

And i am firmly placing it down to brand specfics and product specfics of effectiness, they wouldnt be reccomened as a viable alternative if they were defacto ****.      I will go on a browse for any studies, but do you poesses any for this subject?



kempodisciple said:


> Some hospitals are already running low on them.



That i know, still sure they get priority even if its just down to economic ability.      Which ones though? as i know the chinese ones have been running low on them and the supply is drying up.   (at least for generic citizens)

Edit: and this is still all the more reson to stock up for edventualities and get some SCBA.


----------



## skribs (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> Given washing stations are located in the toilets, unless you work in a hopstial (where both toilets and gel dispensers are everywhere) It could become a issue of convience.
> 
> And i am firmly placing it down to brand specfics and product specfics of effectiness, they wouldnt be reccomened as a viable alternative if they were defacto ****. I will go on a browse for any studies, but do you poesses any for this subject?



Do you not have convenient access to toilets where you come from?

They are *not* recommended as a viable alternative.  It's a supplement.  Nobody says you should stop washing your hands and just use hand sanitizer.  Would you spray on deodorant so you don't have to take a shower?


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 3, 2020)

OP here. 

Rat, thanks for stopping by. We're good.

I appreciate the general dialogue here and I realize we're not all going to conclude the same things about it. The facts are we (I) don't know what I don't know about this virus yet. I also recognize that, at least in the US this is becoming a political issue and though I can kind of guess some of your leanings based on your replies, I appreciate that we've left that overtly out of the discussion. The facts are not entirely in evidence as of yet and I think we'll know more in a matter of weeks. 

Between now and then: 


I teach in the county that leads the US in Covid 19 deaths so far. They are most or entirely from a concentrated group of people with less stable health circumstances, so it's not quite apples-to-apples with my class.

But, I personally have a (well managed) auto-immune disease, so I am probably at higher risk than average.
My kwoon is in Seattle's Chinatown and roughly 1/2 of my students are Asian and roughly 1/2 of them have traveled internationally in the last 6 months. Others work in kitchens and close quarters environments. 

My employer has asked us all to work from home for the time being. We are an international company and people travel frequently in and out of the office.
Our kwoon is in a very small space with poor ventilation. We're all responsible and hand wash and clean equipment off and such, but the physical circumstances of our environment are what they are.

The style we practice involves a lot of physical contact person to person. 

We have a strong culture of not missing training because of a minor injury or sniffle, but have agreed not to come if we feel sick in any way. 
I neither aspire to be paranoid nor irresponsible. I do think that there in a hotspot and are doing things that increase our likelihood of exposure. I appreciate the dialogue and knowing what other people in similar circumstances are thinking and doing, whether they align with my current thoughts or not.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> Given washing stations are located in the toilets, unless you work in a hopstial (where both toilets and gel dispensers are everywhere)   It could become a issue of convience.
> 
> And i am firmly placing it down to brand specfics and product specfics of effectiness, they wouldnt be reccomened as a viable alternative if they were defacto ****.      I will go on a browse for any studies, but do you poesses any for this subject?


Here you go. Straight from the center for disease control. Show Me the Science – When & How to Use Hand Sanitizer in Community Settings  | Handwashing | CDC



> That i know, still sure they get priority even if its just down to economic ability.      Which ones though? as i know the chinese ones have been running low on them and the supply is drying up.   (at least for generic citizens)
> 
> Edit: and this is still all the more reson to stock up for edventualities and get some SCBA.




The ones in new york, at the very least. Where there haven't even been any cases. There are painters who aren't getting the masks they need for work specifically because of the hysteria, I'm sure they'll be flooding the hospitals soon with breathing problems.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> Today my Master said no more shaking hands after class.  He also stressed that if you feel sick, stay home.  And we've got a public hand sanitizer station now.





Danny T said:


> Yes ma'am.
> It's shocking how many places allow people to walk in the restrooms barefooted or wear their mat shoes and then return to the mats without any type of sanitizing them!! Then they are rolling or wrestling or doing takesdowns rubbing their faces on the places that have been stepped on by those feet or shoes. We've never allowed shoes that have been worn outside or in the restrooms without being sanitized first onto the mats.


Shoes are left on the shelf at the door. Hard rule.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> What is friction drying soap?



Never heard of that, and just for fun Googled it. It didn't know what it was either but I do now know there's 7 causes of dry penis skin!!!! Sometimes, Google helps, at other's just...NO! I could have lived the rest of my life quite happily not knowing that.


----------



## skribs (Mar 3, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> OP here.
> 
> Rat, thanks for stopping by. We're good.
> 
> ...



Because of these factors, I don't think you're paranoid if you take extra measures.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> Given washing stations are located in the toilets, unless you work in a hopstial (where both toilets and gel dispensers are everywhere)   It could become a issue of convience.


I didn't fully process this earlier. Are you not going to the bathroom in actual bathrooms, or are you talking about when you're out and get your hand dirty some other way. If the first, that might be a bigger issue. If the second, you can't be _that _far from a bathroom/sink in your everyday life, and if you are the traditional advice I've been given is: if your hands are dirty and you've got hand sanitizer handy-use that first, and then wash your hands when you can.


----------



## Buka (Mar 3, 2020)

Working the airport of a popular world tourist destination is challenging in times like this, that's for sure. You prepare, take as many precautions as you can and do what you always do - help people and do your job.

Unfortunately, I am the perfect target for this corona thing - old, with a suppressed immune system. I've always washed my hands at work dozens of times each day, but these days I wash them more than I can accurately count. I make it a habit not to touch my face. I have masks handy in case travellers want them, explaining that they might not be of any help, I have rubber gloves, alcohol wipes and bleach wipes that I give out if people ask. It's impossible to keep a distance from folks, the place is lousy with them, and people always need help with something. And some times people cause trouble causing you to get up close and personal. 

But you do what you can for everyone's sake, try to help anyone who needs it, prepare and hope for the best. I'm actually more concerned for my fall trip to Boston - which we may cancel depending on how this develops - than I am working my airport. I have a better control over our environment here than I do other places. 

Everybody please stay safe. Wash those hands, get enough sleep, eat well, try not to stress, keep your health as strong as you can.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 3, 2020)

3 more deaths in Washington State/King County since last night. Total now is 9.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 3, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> 3 more deaths in Washington State/King County since last night. Total now is 9.


wow.  i am sorry to hear that.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 3, 2020)

From what I am hearing on the news, this novel virus seems to be showing a 2.5% mortality rate so far.  The problem is, there are a whole lot of unknowns right now, including how many people are actually infected.  As this information is brought to light, that mortality rate may change.  One health expert who I saw discussing it on the news suggested it may level out at approximately 0.8%.

In contrast, the flu has a mortality rate of approximately 0.1%.  Hundreds of thousands of people die around the world from the flu each year.  But many millions get the flu.  With corona, we just don't know yet.

Either way, if it is at 2.5% or 0.8% or anywhere in between or above that or below that, it is potentially very serious.

The other real problem is that it seems to be showing a 14 day incubation period, during which an infected person feels no symptoms and does not know yet that he/she is sick, but is already contagious.  I cannot imagine anybody is able to accurately trace everybody that they have come into contact with and every location they have visited in the last 14 days, in order to map transmission and attempt to get it under control.  People who they may have gotten close enough to in order to transmit the disease, or items they may have touched that could be contaminated by someone who passed by earlier.  We do not yet know how long the virus remains viable, sitting on surfaces, where someone may touch them later and transfer them into their body.  So this is a real issue, with real concerns and an admittedly difficult prognosis to combat it.

Good personal hygiene seems to be the advice of the day, and there is no reason for everyone to panic.  However, it may be prudent to gather some supplies that can be put into storage, incase anyone needs to self-isolate if suspected contamination, and cannot get to the grocery store for more.  Another possibility is that a local outbreak may cause the local authorities to close services down, stores may decide to close for the safety of employees and the public, once again making sense to have some food stashed away just in case.   Small steps like that make sense to me, in addition to keeping sanitation supplies.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 3, 2020)

A colleague who lives in the suburbs urged me to go to Costco but warned me that lines were long and shelves were empty. I live in the city and there is a market every 10 blocks, so I haven't really thought about it. But, I think I decided to make a brisket because a) I like making brisket b) I'm good at it and c) I could feed my family for 2 weeks on it if I had to.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> A colleague who lives in the suburbs urged me to go to Costco but warned me that lines were long and shelves were empty. I live in the city and there is a market every 10 blocks, so I haven't really thought about it. But, I think I decided to make a brisket because a) I like making brisket b) I'm good at it and c) I could feed my family for 2 weeks on it if I had to.




I have to ask what do you mean when you say brisket? In the UK brisket is a particular cut of beef. (A cut of beef taken from just below the shoulder along the length of the chest/breast.) Are you butchering a cow?


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I have to ask what do you mean when you say brisket? In the UK brisket is a particular cut of beef. (A cut of beef taken from just below the shoulder along the length of the chest/breast.) Are you butchering a cow?



I would not, myself be butchering the cow. But, I think we're talking about the same cut of beef. It's a cheap, tough pair of muscles in the chest. I smoke it over wood and charcoal for 15-18 hours or so and then wait out the zombie apocalypse and listen to music.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 3, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> I would not, myself be butchering the cow. But, I think we're talking about the same cut of beef. It's a cheap, tough pair of muscles in the chest. I smoke it over wood and charcoal for 15-18 hours or so and then wait out the zombie apocalypse and listen to music.


make sure you don't get some wayward zombie flesh falling in with the brisket...
it happens sometimes.


----------



## Buka (Mar 3, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> make sure you don't get some wayward zombie flesh falling in with the brisket...
> it happens sometimes.



I hate when that happens.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> I would not, myself be butchering the cow. But, I think we're talking about the same cut of beef. It's a cheap, tough pair of muscles in the chest. I smoke it over wood and charcoal for 15-18 hours or so and then wait out the zombie apocalypse and listen to music.





Flying Crane said:


> make sure you don't get some wayward zombie flesh falling in with the brisket...
> it happens sometimes.





Buka said:


> I hate when that happens.



Man, I love this place.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 3, 2020)

You'd love my place even more after that brisket comes off the smoker...but I'd probably expose you to coronavirus so...


----------



## Buka (Mar 3, 2020)

My dad fought in World War 1. Told me all about it. But he told me that the war was nothing compared to what came right after it. What people called “The Grip”...also known as the Spanish flu. Killed well over a half million Americans. Killed fifty million world wide.

Hard to even wrap my mind around those figures.But the human race survived. As it will now again, especially because we are all more aware of steps to take for safety than people were back then.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 4, 2020)

I was in the pharmacy and I said to the assistant “What gets rid of coronavirus” ?

She said "Ammonia cleaner”

I said "Oh sorry, I thought you worked here...”


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 4, 2020)

How to wash your hands.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 4, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> I didn't fully process this earlier. Are you not going to the bathroom in actual bathrooms, or are you talking about when you're out and get your hand dirty some other way. If the first, that might be a bigger issue. If the second, you can't be _that _far from a bathroom/sink in your everyday life, and if you are the traditional advice I've been given is: if your hands are dirty and you've got hand sanitizer handy-use that first, and then wash your hands when you can.



Wasnt strictly on a infectious disease point.   But i was proposing some people and some sitautions can lead you to not having access to toilets, or being a pain to travel back and fourth to wash your hands if thats all you want to do.    And then pending quality, they could be a hygine issue in themselves.   The obvious situation would be first aid when you are out hiking or something, sourcing a point to wash your hands may be difficult so gel would be a viable alternative.  (and is listed as such before gloving yourself)

The advice i have got is they are a viable alternative to washing your hands, obviously it would depend on brand and product specfics as i have discussed.   (first aid advice as i stated above)     The link in question also states it as being a viable alternative if it meets X criteria on a anti microbe perspective. 

The one i have, has the alchol you cant drink in it ,chlorhexidine and triethanolamine in it.    Given i recall chlorhexidine being in detol spray and other disinfectants (as it is a disinfectant) probability would dictate it is in most cleaners most people buy.  If not that one, another dis infectant would be.

Back to the gel i have, it has a statement about killing 99.9% of bacteria which would drive it to be legal territory if the claim is unfounded.

Edit:  The obvious presumption people make when they state "get hand sanitizer" is the ones that are anti microbal and actually work for the task.

Also, despite any tone issues, im more just intrested in the conversation at this point.   I got dragged away mid writing so its probbly going to be so-so rushed/sloppy and i dont have enough time to edit it fully.    So apologies for that one.


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 4, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is no reason to do anything different. The things you should have been doing all along are sufficient. You can shake hands after class. Wearing a mask will not in any way prevent you from getting sick.


The RN has spoken! Yep, I haven't changed anything. Just touching my face less!

And here in Aus it's almost been declared 'pandemic' (which I don't think that it is if I know what that word means..), apparently 42 cases so far with one death. But in all the talk it was said by SOMEone that people should stock up on everyday stuff, about two weeks worth just in case you'll have to stay in.

So guess what has happened? Stores nationwide have been sold out of toilet paper... seriously it's gone mental here with paranoia XD. For some strange reason there's been an obsession with toilet paper specifically!


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 4, 2020)

Oh and also round one of the tournament I usually compete in has had to be cancelled. The trophies and medals we have made are made in China, and those factories have been shut down because of the virus. A suggestion was made to get them made here but apparently the material is still from factories which get stuff from China factories... or something like that!


----------



## jobo (Mar 4, 2020)

Buka said:


> My dad fought in World War 1. Told me all about it. But he told me that the war was nothing compared to what came right after it. What people called “The Grip”...also known as the Spanish flu. Killed well over a half million Americans. Killed fifty million world wide.
> 
> Hard to even wrap my mind around those figures.But the human race survived. As it will now again, especially because we are all more aware of steps to take for safety than people were back then.


 i read an intresting article, that a significant % of the death toll was down to the over presciption of asprin, which was a relatively new '' wonder drug at the time, which they didnt apreciate could kill if iver used, so they just kept banging aprin down people, if they got worse they just increased the dose and people got worse again, so they gave them more asprin


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 4, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> The other real problem is that it seems to be showing a 14 day incubation period, during which an infected person feels no symptoms and does not know yet that he/she is sick, but is already contagious.  I cannot imagine anybody is able to accurately trace everybody that they have come into contact with and every location they have visited in the last 14 days, in order to map transmission and attempt to get it under control.  People who they may have gotten close enough to in order to transmit the disease, or items they may have touched that could be contaminated by someone who passed by earlier.  We do not yet know how long the virus remains viable, sitting on surfaces, where someone may touch them later and transfer them into their body.  So this is a real issue, with real concerns and an admittedly difficult prognosis to combat it.
> 
> Good personal hygiene seems to be the advice of the day, and there is no reason for everyone to panic.  However, it may be prudent to gather some supplies that can be put into storage, incase anyone needs to self-isolate if suspected contamination, and cannot get to the grocery store for more.  Another possibility is that a local outbreak may cause the local authorities to close services down, stores may decide to close for the safety of employees and the public, once again making sense to have some food stashed away just in case.   Small steps like that make sense to me, in addition to keeping sanitation supplies.



Sounds almost..... like.... a zombie virus..... situation....

Edit: AH I only just scrolled to the posts in which zombies were indeed mentioned..... great! Carry on.


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 4, 2020)

Buka said:


> Working the airport of a popular world tourist destination is challenging in times like this, that's for sure. You prepare, take as many precautions as you can and do what you always do - help people and do your job.
> 
> Unfortunately, I am the perfect target for this corona thing - old, with a suppressed immune system. I've always washed my hands at work dozens of times each day, but these days I wash them more than I can accurately count. I make it a habit not to touch my face. I have masks handy in case travellers want them, explaining that they might not be of any help, I have rubber gloves, alcohol wipes and bleach wipes that I give out if people ask. It's impossible to keep a distance from folks, the place is lousy with them, and people always need help with something. And some times people cause trouble causing you to get up close and personal.
> 
> ...


Ah yeah the airport...

Please stay safe Buka.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 4, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> So guess what has happened? Stores nationwide have been sold out of toilet paper... seriously it's gone mental here with paranoia XD. For some strange reason there's been an obsession with toilet paper specifically!



Maybe they know of a symptom the rest of us dont know about?


----------



## skribs (Mar 4, 2020)

Rat said:


> The advice i have got is they are a viable alternative to washing your hands, obviously it would depend on brand and product specfics as i have discussed. (first aid advice as i stated above) The link in question also states it as being a viable alternative if it meets X criteria on a anti microbe perspective.



It does not say that.  It says:

It cannot eliminate all types of germs
It's not as effective when hands are dirty
Might not remove harmful chemicals
*If soap and water are not available*, it gives you the best concentrations of alcohol to have the best success.
By saying "if soap and water are not available", it is telling you that if soap and water are available, then soap and water is better.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 4, 2020)

Here in the UK they say if you self isolate just get your food delivered by the supermarket ( many of us do anyway) and get them to leave it outside rather than coming out as we usually do, supermarkets are preparing for this. 
The sick pay rules have been changed so if self isolating the statuary sick pay gets paid from first day not third.

Everything you need to know...
Coronavirus: A visual guide to the outbreak


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 4, 2020)

Just saw this morning on the news, at this time the WHO is assessing the lethality of the virus at 3.4%.  Don’t know how long it will remain assessed at that level.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 4, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> The RN has spoken! Yep, I haven't changed anything. Just touching my face less!
> 
> And here in Aus it's almost been declared 'pandemic' (which I don't think that it is if I know what that word means..), apparently 42 cases so far with one death. But in all the talk it was said by SOMEone that people should stock up on everyday stuff, about two weeks worth just in case you'll have to stay in.
> 
> So guess what has happened? Stores nationwide have been sold out of toilet paper... seriously it's gone mental here with paranoia XD. For some strange reason there's been an obsession with toilet paper specifically!


If the toilet paper supply was actually used up in the community, with no source of resupply, just imagine the hygiene problems.

In the zombie apocalypse, toilet paper is worth more than gold.  It’s worth almost as much as clean water.

At the post apocalypse swap meet and supply trade, you will hear, “hey Fred, I’ll trade you this rusty hatchet for six rolls of Charmin...”


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 4, 2020)

Way back when I was still at school I was in a city that had a typhoid epidemic, the roads in and out were closed and manned by the police. Schools were closed ( very long summer holidays for us), streets were empty, we had out summer holiday cancelled but there was no panic, Scottish people are not prone to it anyway. We were all urged to wash our hands just like now. I am one of those people though who cannot eat corned beef because of it.
The 1964 Aberdeen Typhoid Epidemic - Part One - Aberdeen Voice

While I was looking for something to post on the Aberdeen epidemic I found this, the British medical Journal, a very well respected source of medical knowledge, they have free Coronavirus info which I'm going to keep an eye on, there's pieces about the USA response too.
Coronavirus (covid-19): Latest news and resources | The BMJ


----------



## jobo (Mar 4, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> If the toilet paper supply was actually used up in the community, with no source of resupply, just imagine the hygiene problems.
> 
> In the zombie apocalypse, toilet paper is worth more than gold.  It’s worth almost as much as clean water.
> 
> At the post apocalypse swap meet and supply trade, you will hear, “hey Fred, I’ll trade you this rusty hatchet for six rolls of Charmin...”


whats wrong with newspaper ? apart from getting an inky bum ! failing that kitchen roll works well, as do wet wipes, which are my choice for the woods, though doc leaves have been untilised on quite a few occasions

i even sat on a toilet that had no toilet paper availabe and stuck cigerete papers together once if it needs any more than a minor wipe you need to consider you diet


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> whats wrong with newspaper ? apart from getting an inky bum ! failing that kitchen roll works well, as do wet wipes, which are my choice for the woods, though doc leaves have been untilised on quite a few occasions




All those would block the sewage system leaving us with an even nastier problem and worse diseases.


----------



## jobo (Mar 4, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> All those would block the sewage system leaving us with an even nastier problem and worse diseases.


doc leaves would block the sewarage system ? i doubt it

nor would any of the others for that matter, you dont use a whole sheet of newspaer in one go, you tear it up in to smaller peices,

back in the days when they built the system news paper is all most of the population had


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 4, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> All those would block the sewage system leaving us with an even nastier problem and worse diseases.



Outhouse, problem solved.   Just dig a pit in the ground, stick a bucket in it and badabing badaboom your good.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 4, 2020)

Rat said:


> Outhouse, problem solved.   Just dig a pit in the ground, stick a bucket in it and badabing badaboom your good.


What do you do with it when your bucket is full?


----------



## jobo (Mar 4, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> What do you do with it when your bucket is full?


the bucket is surplus to requirement if you going over the hole , fill the bucket, them fill the hole then put soil in the hole. then plabnt some veg in the soil

its what the whole world did till about 1840


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 4, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> What do you do with it when your bucket is full?



We will cross that bridge when we come to it...


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 4, 2020)

Rat said:


> We will cross that bridge when we come to it...


Sooner than you apparently think.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 4, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> If the toilet paper supply was actually used up in the community, with no source of resupply, just imagine the hygiene problems.
> 
> In the zombie apocalypse, toilet paper is worth more than gold.  It’s worth almost as much as clean water.
> 
> At the post apocalypse swap meet and supply trade, you will hear, “hey Fred, I’ll trade you this rusty hatchet for six rolls of Charmin...”


When I was younger you hardly ever seen a porta-john at a construction site. Knowing which trees to get your 'toilet paper' from was very important. Hickory leaves, while quite large and good for the purpose, will leave you itching. 
Sometimes you were just glad you found some leaves.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 4, 2020)

Rat said:


> Outhouse, problem solved. Just dig a pit in the ground, stick a bucket in it and badabing badaboom your good.




Or just use water as Asian people do, they consider it cleaner than using paper.


----------



## Blindside (Mar 4, 2020)

Rat said:


> Outhouse, problem solved.   Just dig a pit in the ground, stick a bucket in it and badabing badaboom your good.



Why put a bucket in it?  Dig a deeper hole put a board with a hole over it.  Fill hole back in when half full.  If you want to interrupt the fly cycle get a good seal to close the hole (like another board) when not in use.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 4, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> When I was younger you hardly ever seen a porta-john at a construction site. Knowing which trees to get your 'toilet paper' from was very important. Hickory leaves, while quite large and good for the purpose, will leave you itching.
> Sometimes you were just glad you found some leaves.


too much information.

but good advice about the hickory leaves.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 4, 2020)

Death toll is Washington State just went to 10.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 4, 2020)

Rat said:


> Wasnt strictly on a infectious disease point.   But i was proposing some people and some sitautions can lead you to not having access to toilets, or being a pain to travel back and fourth to wash your hands if thats all you want to do.    And then pending quality, they could be a hygine issue in themselves.   The obvious situation would be first aid when you are out hiking or something, sourcing a point to wash your hands may be difficult so gel would be a viable alternative.  (and is listed as such before gloving yourself)
> 
> The advice i have got is they are a viable alternative to washing your hands, obviously it would depend on brand and product specfics as i have discussed.   (first aid advice as i stated above)     The link in question also states it as being a viable alternative if it meets X criteria on a anti microbe perspective.
> 
> ...


Each line/paragraph you wrote about it is incorrect, so just going to go through it for each part.

1. If you are hiking, it is not any tougher to carry ziplocked soap with you then it is to carry hand sanitizer, if you feel the need for something. And you should have water with you, so that's not an issue either. If you're on a multiday hike, you should have ziplocked soap with you.

2. It is not a _viable alternative. _It is a _better than nothing alternative._ As in, you use it if you need until you can get to a place with soap, then immediately actually wash your hands.

3. In the link, it even specifies that it is an alternative until you can wash your hands because it is less effective than handwashing. What the link specifies is to use a higher alcohol content gel, if you are going to use a gel. It's like saying "you should drink water, not soda, but if you do, drink X brand because it's healthier than Y brand."

4. I promise you, people do drink those. I've seen it plenty of times.

5. That 99.9% bacteria killing is false.


----------



## Buka (Mar 4, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Just saw this morning on the news, at this time the WHO is assessing the lethality of the virus at 3.4%.  Don’t know how long it will remain assessed at that level.



Any time The Who speak, I listen.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 4, 2020)

Buka said:


> Any time The Who speak, I listen.



I used to feel that way, but they were wrong once and I won't get fooled again.


----------



## jobo (Mar 4, 2020)

Buka said:


> Any time The Who speak, I listen.
> 
> View attachment 22713


people seem to have forgoton about PT unfortunete conviction for internet related activerties


----------



## Buka (Mar 4, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> I used to feel that way, but they were wrong once and I won't get fooled again.



I can't begin to tell you how funny I thought that was. Oh, my, that made my day.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 4, 2020)

Will you fly to another city to participate an event? Or will you stay home and cancel that trip?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 4, 2020)

My training is done at home so no problem there.  I'm more concerned about a run on the stores and not being able to get what I need.  Monday I went to the store and  shelves were full.  2 days later the shelves are empty.   I usually do my grocery shopping at night because of my work hours.  I  usually see workers stock the shelves.  No one was stocking the shelves tonight.

On the serious side of things.  Stay safe, be smart,  There are 2 known cases of the virus in Georgia and the shelves are starting to look like they need to be restocked.  If it's this bad from 2 cases, then I can only assume that it'll get worse as that number increases.  It will be at it's worst if more people die from it at a high rate.  I hope and pray for a healthy outcome for all of us.  

With that, I leave this peace of advice when it comes to knowing how serious or dangerous something is.  "Don't listen to what people say, watch how they react."  No one shuts down schools nation-wide for for the flu.  No one asks citizens not to buy masks because the health care workers need them, when there is a flu.  We often talk about situational awareness for self-defense is important.  It's probably a good skill set to have now.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 4, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> My training is done at home so no problem there.  I'm more concerned about a run on the stores and not being able to get what I need.  Monday I went to the store and  shelves were full.  2 days later the shelves are empty.   I usually do my grocery shopping at night because of my work hours.  I  usually see workers stock the shelves.  No one was stocking the shelves tonight.
> 
> On the serious side of things.  Stay safe, be smart,  There are 2 known cases of the virus in Georgia and the shelves are starting to look like they need to be restocked.  If it's this bad from 2 cases, then I can only assume that it'll get worse as that number increases.  It will be at it's worst if more people die from it at a high rate.  I hope and pray for a healthy outcome for all of us.
> 
> With that, I leave this peace of advice when it comes to knowing how serious or dangerous something is.  "Don't listen to what people say, watch how they react."  No one shuts down schools nation-wide for for the flu.  No one asks citizens not to buy masks because the health care workers need them, when there is a flu.  We often talk about situational awareness for self-defense is important.  It's probably a good skill set to have now.


I'm fairly well stocked, but tend to go from well-stocked to not stocked at all depending on what time it is in my food shopping. my only real focus at home in regards to that is just to make sure I don't get low.

And that's not because I think some sort of apocalypse is coming. It's because I could see people freaking out any random day, when the media tells them too, and me not being able to do my normal grocery shopping as a result.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 4, 2020)

I wear this most days




Hopefully it’ll protect me.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 4, 2020)

California has one death now and I think it was 53 or 54 confirmed cases.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 4, 2020)

I also just heard that the contagious incubation period without symptoms could be closer to 24 days.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 4, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I also just heard that the contagious incubation period without symptoms could be closer to 24 days.


Do you happen to have a link to wherever you heard/read that?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 4, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> And that's not because I think some sort of apocalypse is coming. It's because I could see people freaking out any random day, when the media tells them too, and me not being able to do my normal grocery shopping as a result.


The CDC put out a warning about it happening so they are expecting it as things get worse.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 4, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I also just heard that the contagious incubation period without symptoms could be closer to 24 days.


Correction.  I've heard that the virus could last outside the body for 24 days.  The CDC has it on their site that the incubation period is 1 - 14 days.  WHO also list the same incubation period.  The trouble that they have with the 1 -14 day period is that there is currently no way to know when someone is infected vs someone being sick and showing symptoms. (at least in the U.S)


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 4, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Do you happen to have a link to wherever you heard/read that?


a friend told me, said she read it on the local CBS web page, might have been a link to CNN.  Sorry, I can’t verify that source.

I guess I should be more responsible with my reporting.  Don’t mean to spread inaccurate rumors.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 5, 2020)

North Carolina has its first confirmed case. Not at our end of the state (about 4 hours away), but still.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 5, 2020)

Myth busters


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> a friend told me, said she read it on the local CBS web page, might have been a link to CNN.  Sorry, I can’t verify that source.
> 
> I guess I should be more responsible with my reporting.  Don’t mean to spread inaccurate rumors.



Mrs Xue's is a TCM MD from China, and per her medical contacts in China, before the PRC shut down all news, went into denial mode, and blamed the USA, there can be carriers, that never show symptoms, that can infect a lot of people. However there seems to be very few of these. However Mrs Xue is also points out that the Flu kills many more people per year than the Covid-19 and she wonders why they are no reporting flu related deaths as vigorously.

And yes, it was reported in China and Japan that it "may" be a 24 day period, but so far they seem to be sticking to the 14 day period. It is also possible that 24 day period is based on those few that appear to be carriers.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 5, 2020)

Blindside said:


> Why put a bucket in it?  Dig a deeper hole put a board with a hole over it.  Fill hole back in when half full.  If you want to interrupt the fly cycle get a good seal to close the hole (like another board) when not in use.



Was hinting at a compost toilet.   You would just have several buckets on rotation and rotate them around as they get full/empty and once its composted, you can use it as just that.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 5, 2020)

_"The “incubation period” means the time between catching the virus and beginning to have symptoms of the disease. Most estimates of the incubation period for COVID-19 range from 1-14 days, most commonly around five days. These estimates will be updated as more data become available."_

Q&A on coronaviruses (COVID-19)


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 5, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Mrs Xue's is a TCM MD from China, and per her medical contacts in China, before the PRC shut down all news, went into denial mode, and blamed the USA, there can be carriers, that never show symptoms, that can infect a lot of people. However there seems to be very few of these. However Mrs Xue is also points out that the Flu kills many more people per year than the Covid-19 and she wonders why they are no reporting flu related deaths as vigorously.
> 
> And yes, it was reported in China and Japan that it "may" be a 24 day period, but so far they seem to be sticking to the 14 day period. It is also possible that 24 day period is based on those few that appear to be carriers.


Many more people do die from the flu every year, but many many many more people get the flu every year.  But the death rate of the flu is very low, around 0.1%.  Last I heard, Covid-19 is showing a death rat of 3.4%.  That is what WHO has put it at, as of a day or two ago.  That number is likely to change, as we really don’t know how many people are actually infected.  The more that is learned about this disease, the more accurate the info will become and the more confidence we can have in the numbers.  But so far, Covid-19 is showing a death rate of 34 times that of the flu.


----------



## jobo (Mar 5, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> This is incorrect. Hand sanitizer is less effective than soap and water. Convenience doesn’t play into that, especially when hand washing isn’t a particularly tough or inconvenient thing to do.


well no its not, not if your talking about anti bacterial cleaner, which kills bacteria, viruses yeast and other assorted nasties, where as soap doesnt do that at all, unless it '' medicated soap'', which is much the same thing as bio wash, good old carbolic kills everything

it leaves a significant portion alive and kicking, it is however good at removing dirt


----------



## jobo (Mar 5, 2020)

well despite the bbc giving blanket and near hysteriacal coverage of the inpending armagedan, the people of manchester have been whipped it to a state of complete apathy, panic buying NO, face masks not at all, avoiding public transport, no the bus was still packed, public places, no couldnt get a seat in the pub last night.

so far we have 110 cases ,  out of a poulation of 70, 000000 and one person with existing serious health issues has managed to die. think il hold of on going into a state of panic till its killing more people than RTAs


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> well no its not, not if your talking about anti bacterial cleaner, which kills bacteria, viruses yeast and other assorted nasties, where as soap doesnt do that at all, unless it '' medicated soap'', which is much the same thing as bio wash, good old carbolic kills everything
> 
> it leaves a significant portion alive and kicking, it is however good at removing dirt


Check the links that i already included.


----------



## jobo (Mar 5, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Check the links that i already included.


WHY they are either WRONG or you have badly miss understood,

im going for the second one

the problem is they kill bacteria you may wish to keep, in normal cicumstances theres not real wold differance, i mean really who cares what bacteria is on your skin, thats what you immune system is for, but if your actually trying to elinnate all bacteria, thats what you want


----------



## jobo (Mar 5, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Many more people do die from the flu every year, but many many many more people get the flu every year.  But the death rate of the flu is very low, around 0.1%.  Last I heard, Covid-19 is showing a death rat of 3.4%.  That is what WHO has put it at, as of a day or two ago.  That number is likely to change, as we really don’t know how many people are actually infected.  The more that is learned about this disease, the more accurate the info will become and the more confidence we can have in the numbers.  But so far, Covid-19 is showing a death rate of 34 times that of the flu.


 so, the risk is 34 x mininscule, so thats slightly less than miniscule ?


----------



## geezer (Mar 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> so, the risk is 34 x mininscule, so thats slightly less than miniscule ?



Yeah, that seems about right ...based on the woefully incomplete data available so far. Really, for now it's a wait and see situation.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 5, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Many more people do die from the flu every year, but many many many more people get the flu every year.  But the death rate of the flu is very low, around 0.1%.  Last I heard, Covid-19 is showing a death rat of 3.4%.   But so far, Covid-19 is showing a death rate of 34 times that of the flu.


  I really don't like the flu comparisons about how many people are killed by the flu.  Especially at the beginning of an an outbreak.   Things are just getting started in the U.S.   There's no guarantee that it won't spread from the US and back to China again. " It's still early in the game."

I also hate the flu comparison because this is 34 more times more deadlier than the flu.  If the flu kills a lot of people then this new virus has the potential to kill 34 times more people.  That's not a comfort level for me.  I also learned this morning that a pet dog tested positive to a low level of corona virus infection.  So now we have another twist.  Human to Animal transmission.  We know very little about the virus and now we got a new twist to it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 5, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I really don't like the flu comparisons about how many people are killed by the flu.  Especially at the beginning of an an outbreak.   Things are just getting started in the U.S.   There's no guarantee that it won't spread from the US and back to China again. " It's still early in the game."
> 
> I also hate the flu comparison because this is 34 more times more deadlier than the flu.  If the flu kills a lot of people then this new virus has the potential to kill 34 times more people.  That's not a comfort level for me.  I also learned this morning that a pet dog tested positive to a low level of corona virus infection.  So now we have another twist.  Human to Animal transmission.  We know very little about the virus and now we got a new twist to it.


Interesting.  I had just read on the WHO website that there is no evidence of transmission to or from pets.

It is a changing situation.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 5, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I really don't like the flu comparisons about how many people are killed by the flu.  Especially at the beginning of an an outbreak.   Things are just getting started in the U.S.   There's no guarantee that it won't spread from the US and back to China again. " It's still early in the game."
> 
> I also hate the flu comparison because this is 34 more times more deadlier than the flu.  If the flu kills a lot of people then this new virus has the potential to kill 34 times more people.  That's not a comfort level for me.  I also learned this morning that a pet dog tested positive to a low level of corona virus infection.  So now we have another twist.  Human to Animal transmission.  We know very little about the virus and now we got a new twist to it.


The other part of it is we don't know it's infection rate/communicability compared to the flu. That will also impact how deadly it is overall compared to the flu.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 6, 2020)

Interesting report here.  After seeing the living condition and the fact that it looks completely unregulated.  I would say that anything would be possible in these conditions. I don't know anything about slaughtering animals but just from what I know of bacteria, animal viruses, there's a lot of things that I wouldn't do in terms of how these animals are kept for slaughtering.  For starters I wouldn't stack them on top of each other in cases where the fecal matter of one animal can drop on top of another animal.

China coronavirus: Eating wild animals made illegal but ending the trade won't be easy - CNN


----------



## jobo (Mar 6, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I really don't like the flu comparisons about how many people are killed by the flu.  Especially at the beginning of an an outbreak.   Things are just getting started in the U.S.   There's no guarantee that it won't spread from the US and back to China again. " It's still early in the game."
> 
> I also hate the flu comparison because this is 34 more times more deadlier than the flu.  If the flu kills a lot of people then this new virus has the potential to kill 34 times more people.  That's not a comfort level for me.  I also learned this morning that a pet dog tested positive to a low level of corona virus infection.  So now we have another twist.  Human to Animal transmission.  We know very little about the virus and now we got a new twist to it.


its not 34 times dealier than the flu, it likemost virus is potentialy deadly to a very small group of people, those with compromised immune systems, thats larley the old and unwell, but could also included people who are fanatical about hygene, as they have compromised their own immune systems. in which case its just irony bordering on funny that they have put their health at risk by being obsesed about their health

so for most of us, its not even slightly deadly, i think the cccase is 5% of people become unwell, to the point they actually notice they have the virus.

as only a small group  actually dvelop acute symtoms, you can increase the number of cases by several magnitudes, in which case the % dieing drops significantly

news media and WHO seem to be ramping up histeria for no good reason, we have been in constant battle with viruses since the begining of time and seem to have done just fine, larley because virus that kill a significant number of hosts are self limiting their exposure to new hosts so are not evolutionary sound and they modify themselves to be less deadly. thier purpose is not to kill, but to keep self replicating, that really hard to do if every one is dead


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 6, 2020)

jobo said:


> well no its not, not if your talking about anti bacterial cleaner, which kills bacteria, viruses yeast and other assorted nasties, where as soap doesnt do that at all, unless it '' medicated soap'', which is much the same thing as bio wash, good old carbolic kills everything
> 
> it leaves a significant portion alive and kicking, it is however good at removing dirt


Actually, recent studies show that handwashing for 15+ seconds with soap and water (not necessarily antibactirial soap, nor necessarily hot water) is highly effective for sanitizing hands.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 6, 2020)

We're up to 14 deaths in Washington State. Most in King County and the others just 1 county over.


----------



## jobo (Mar 6, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, recent studies show that handwashing for 15+ seconds with soap and water (not necessarily antibactirial soap, nor necessarily hot water) is highly effective for sanitizing hands.


effective,  possibly, but not highly effective, not 99% of bacteria,  which is what my bio wash is,,

washing with soap does not kill bacteria,  or virus, it floats some , even most of them away, but leaves say 20% still there. if that matters depends which ones are left, if only issue with the vast majority  ilof the bacteria  on your skin is it gets a bit smelly


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 6, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> We're up to 14 deaths in Washington State. Most in King County and the others just 1 county over.




We have two in the UK, both very elderly people with underlying health conditions which is as the experts said would happen.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 6, 2020)

jobo said:


> effective,  possibly, but not highly effective, not 99% of bacteria,  which is what my bio wash is,,
> 
> washing with soap does not kill bacteria,  or virus, it floats some , even most of them away, but leaves say 20% still there. if that matters depends which ones are left, if only issue with the vast majority  ilof the bacteria  on your skin is it gets a bit smelly


Your assertion assumes the gel penetrates what’s on the hand (mucus, etc.) containing those germs. What I’ve read states it’s not good at that. It is only at its full effectiveness on clean skin. Hand washing removes what the virus hides in, and the virus with it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 6, 2020)

jobo said:


> news media and WHO seem to be ramping up histeria for no good reason, we have been in constant battle with viruses since the begining of time and seem to have done just fine,


  Some of us have made it through but I wouldn't classify it as "seem to have done just fine."  

"Seem to have done fine" to me = a cure or successful treatment.  It's just a numbers game until that happens where the higher the population is, the more likely you'll have survivors from that population.
*
Small pox:*
On average, 3 out of every 10 people who got it died. the disease accounted for nearly 400,000 deaths each year, including five kings. Of those surviving, one-third were blinded. The worldwide death toll was staggering and continued well into the twentieth century, where mortality has been estimated at 300 to 500 million.
Historical Highlights:

6th Century – Increased trade with China and Korea introduces smallpox into Japan.
7th Century – Arab expansion spreads smallpox into northern Africa, Spain, and Portugal.
11th Century – Crusades further spread smallpox in Europe.
15th Century – Portuguese occupation introduces smallpox into part of western Africa.
16th Century – European colonization and the African slave trade import smallpox into the Caribbean and Central and South America.
17th Century – European colonization imports smallpox into North America.
18th Century – Exploration by Great Britain introduces smallpox into Australia.
*
The Black Plague*
the Black Death would kill more than 20 million people in Europe – almost one-third of the continent’s population.

*The Spanish flu*
The great flu pandemic of 1918 and 1919 is estimated to have killed between 30 million and 50 million people worldwide.

*Measles:*
n 2012, approximately 122,000 people worldwide died from the measles

Typhoid fever kills around 216,000 people a year. Tuberculosis, an infectious bacterial disease, killed an estimated 1.3 million in 2012.

These are just some of the numbers of some of the illnesses that we people had to deal with in the past or in the present.



jobo said:


> larley because virus that kill a significant number of hosts are self limiting their exposure to new hosts so are not evolutionary sound and they modify themselves to be less deadly.


 I don't think viruses care if they kill alot or kill a few.  I don't think they operate on a self-awareness like that. When you look at the size of a virus, then an adult body is more than enough real estate for reproduction and thriving.  The fact that viruses spread as fast as they shows the efficiency of it's ability to thrive.  Even if the host dies, there is still risk of spreading.  Just because the host is dead doesn't mean the virus is dead.  Many viruses don't kill there host right away.  They always stay long enough for another host to arrive.  Some have the ability to jump from Species to Species.  So to me it seems like viruses are evolutionary sound.  

A virus that can be transmitted from animal human may not kill or even affect the animal but may have devastating effects on human hosts.   I think people put a human logic on other life forms.  If killing the host is bad, then killing the predator that kills  your host is good.   The more predators the virus can kill then, the more likely the host can survive.  While I personally don't believe virus can plan something like that, if I were to take your statement  "because virus that kill a significant number of host are self limiting their exposure to new hosts so are not evolutionary sound."  Then I would have to entertain the possibility that a virus that kills, only does so with the goal that it's killing the predator of it's original host. (which may be an animal).  The more predators that die, the more likely their original host will survive.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 6, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> We're up to 14 deaths in Washington State. Most in King County and the others just 1 county over.


  I'm keeping my eyes on Washington State for any significant change of how the virus affects people. It looks like 21% of people in Washington is expected to be 65 years or older.  Then you have those who have other health issues and that risk can rise.

We may live longer but often times, it's not without other health issues.
More than half a million adults and 120,000 youth in *Washington* currently have *asthma.  *Definitely some potential for things to get really nasty.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 6, 2020)

Word.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

Looking at the rate of suicide, the second highest cause of death in the US and rising fast in the UK I think the Coronavirus isn't actually the thing we should worry about the most. A vaccine will be found, probably in the next four weeks, and it will pass. Suicide by young people especially males and by veterans climbed to epidemic levels quite a while ago. 

Hunger kills more people than disease today but in the first world countries it's ignored. Over 9500 have died from that just today.  The World Counts


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

Message from a Canadian doctor.

I'm a doctor and an Infectious Diseases Specialist. I've been at this for more than 20 years seeing sick patients on a daily basis. I have worked in inner city hospitals and in the poorest slums of Africa. HIV-AIDS, Hepatitis,TB, SARS, Measles, Shingles, Whooping cough, Diphtheria...there is little I haven't been exposed to in my profession. And with notable exception of SARS, very little has left me feeling vulnerable, overwhelmed or downright scared.

I am not scared of Covid-19. I am concerned about the implications of a novel infectious agent that has spread the world over and continues to find new footholds in different soil. I am rightly concerned for the welfare of those who are elderly, in frail health or disenfranchised who stand to suffer mostly, and disproportionately, at the hands of this new scourge. But I am not scared of Covid-19.

What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic, stockpiling obscene quantities of anything that could fill a bomb shelter adequately in a post-apocalyptic world. I am scared of the N95 masks that are stolen from hospitals and urgent care clinics where they are actually needed for front line healthcare providers and instead are being donned in airports, malls, and coffee lounges, perpetuating even more fear and suspicion of others. I am scared that our hospitals will be overwhelmed with anyone who thinks they " probably don't have it but may as well get checked out no matter what because you just never know..." and those with heart failure, emphysema, pneumonia and strokes will pay the price for overfilled ER waiting rooms with only so many doctors and nurses to assess.

I am scared that travel restrictions will become so far reaching that weddings will be canceled, graduations missed and family reunions will not materialize. And well, even that big party called the Olympic Games...that could be kyboshed too. Can you even 
imagine?

I'm scared those same epidemic fears will limit trade, harm partnerships in multiple sectors, business and otherwise and ultimately culminate in a global recession.

But mostly, I'm scared about what message we are telling our kids when faced with a threat. Instead of reason, rationality, openmindedness and altruism, we are telling them to panic, be fearful, suspicious, reactionary and self-interested.

Covid-19 is nowhere near over. It will be coming to a city, a hospital, a friend, even a family member near you at some point. Expect it. Stop waiting to be surprised further. The fact is the virus itself will not likely do much harm when it arrives. But our own behaviors and "fight for yourself above all else" attitude could prove disastrous.

I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education. We have an opportunity to learn a great deal about health hygiene and limiting the spread of innumerable transmissible diseases in our society. Let's meet this challenge together in the best spirit of compassion for others, patience, and above all, an unfailing effort to seek truth, facts and knowledge as opposed to conjecture, speculation and catastrophizing.

Facts not fear. Clean hands. Open hearts.
Our children will thank us for it.
Abdu Sharkawy

#washurhands #geturflushot #respect #patiencenotpanic


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm keeping my eyes on Washington State for any significant change of how the virus affects people. It looks like 21% of people in Washington is expected to be 65 years or older.  Then you have those who have other health issues and that risk can rise.
> 
> We may live longer but often times, it's not without other health issues.
> More than half a million adults and 120,000 youth in *Washington* currently have *asthma.  *Definitely some potential for things to get really nasty.


A report last night included news from the main testing site near Seattle. Approximately 5% of those with similar symptoms who were tested, tested positive for covid-19. This suggests a large number of unreported cases.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Looking at the rate of suicide, the second highest cause of death in the US and rising fast in the UK I think the Coronavirus isn't actually the thing we should worry about the most. A vaccine will be found, probably in the next four weeks, and it will pass. Suicide by young people especially males and by veterans climbed to epidemic levels quite a while ago.
> 
> Hunger kills more people than disease today but in the first world countries it's ignored. Over 9500 have died from that just today.  The World Counts


That doesn’t suggest we should stop paying attention to Coronavirus diseases. Rather, try at we should pay more attention to those. For the suicide epidemic, unfortunately, we don’t seem to have a model for altering that number greatly.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 7, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Looking at the rate of suicide, the second highest cause of death in the US and rising fast in the UK I think the Coronavirus isn't actually the thing we should worry about the most. A vaccine will be found, probably in the next four weeks, and it will pass. Suicide by young people especially males and by veterans climbed to epidemic levels quite a while ago.
> 
> Hunger kills more people than disease today but in the first world countries it's ignored. Over 9500 have died from that just today.  The World Counts



Agree. If you research the statistic on Flu related deaths by year they have mostly gone down in worldwide with the exceptions of spikes such as the swine flu.  
Deaths influenza and pneumonia U.S. 1950-2017 | Statista

It is quite telling how the CDC points out that flu deaths track proportional to population growth, species density, and age/health of a region. 
Burden of Influenza

The line chart in this Time article is quite telling. 
2019-2020 Flu Season on Track to Be Especially Severe, New CDC Data Suggests

I am still optimistic that this strain will be a blip as best. It certainly is my hope.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That doesn’t suggest we should stop paying attention to Coronavirus diseases. Rather, try at we should pay more attention to those. For the suicide epidemic, unfortunately, we don’t seem to have a model for altering that number greatly.




The Coronavirus is what it is, we do get regular 'visits' from viruses, if people have good hygiene anyway they are less at risk of catching a lot of things, with all this handwashing etc I'd hope food poisoning and the transmitting of colds and flu would lessen. Posting up numbers of people who died from Coronavirus, arguing about hand sanitisers ( small bottles are selling online for 50 times what they normally sell at and are being stolen from hospitals), not drinking Corona beer, beating up Asian people and crying 'woe is us' is pointless. 

the Yorkshire view.
Coronavirus: why we must all keep calm and carry on – Jayne Dowle


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

A vaccine is expected soon.Israeli scientists: 'In a few weeks, we will have coronavirus vaccine'

However the anti vaxxers will throw things out when they refuse to have it and cause those who can't have it to get ill, as they are now with other diseases.


----------



## jobo (Mar 7, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Some of us have made it through but I wouldn't classify it as "seem to have done just fine."
> 
> "Seem to have done fine" to me = a cure or successful treatment.  It's just a numbers game until that happens where the higher the population is, the more likely you'll have survivors from that population.
> *
> ...


its difficult to have a conversation about virus with someone who seemingly doesnt know the differance between a virus and a baterial infection, half of what youve stated above are bacteria

so basics

its debatable if a virus counts as life, it doesnt have dna, its self replicating rna, if it does its decended from the oldest ''life ;'' on the planet, either way virus and multicellulare organisms have co existed, since thestart of multi cell life

cell organisms have developed immune systems and virus have developed not to kill everything, as with no hoists they cant replicate. they need us, mostly alive

small pox was a significant problem to the new world and other new places as they lacked inherited immune responce, something that was quite common in europe, the black death was of course a bactial infection, and could be quite simply treated with antibiotics these days

 the spanish flu is something of an anomily, it killed a lot of healthy young people, ive seen it postulated that a good number of the deaths were caused by aspin over dose, there after it wasnt the virus that killed people it was their own immune system going into over drive, either way since it hasnt happened again on any scale, its seem evolution has corrected the anomily, and we are back to virus only killing those with compromised immune systems, which is as its always been


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 7, 2020)

jobo said:


> its difficult to have a conversation about virus with someone who seemingly doesnt know the differance between a virus and a baterial infection, half of what youve stated above are bacteria
> 
> so basics
> 
> ...


Yes; one of the links in my previous post does a good job of highlighting how much age, health, healthcare access, and population density plays a factor.
I pray it is not another swine flu like event and is mostly media hype (which I disdain). 
FWIW, as of right now, we are Way behind the averages for the last few years.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

Coronavirus: nine reasons to be reassured

the NHS website is a reliable site for info btw.


----------



## jobo (Mar 7, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Your assertion assumes the gel penetrates what’s on the hand (mucus, etc.) containing those germs. What I’ve read states it’s not good at that. It is only at its full effectiveness on clean skin. Hand washing removes what the virus hides in, and the virus with it.


may be we are talking about different things ? im talking about anti bacterial soap, ( solid, liqued or thick liqued other wise known as gel), which as the name sugests is SOAP that a) washes and b) kills bacteria that the wasing leaves behind. the main complainst against it, arnt that is leaves bacteria, it doesnt in mucus or anything else, its that it to effective and washes away bacteria that you need to be healthy and will in time give rise to super bugs.

i use it on my smelly bits, mostly my feet, that are prone to get a bit ripe if only washed in soap and water, as that leaves behind a significant % of the bacterial collony, which soon replenish themselves to there previous numbers and stinkyness. i wash them first in bio wash and then with soap ) shower gel) and they stay fresh for a considerable period of time, becouse ALL( but 1 %) the bacteria are dead


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

jobo said:


> may be we are talking about different things ? im talking about anti bacterial soap, ( solid, liqued or thick liqued other wise known as gel), which as the name sugests is SOAP that a) washes and b) kills bacteria that the wasing leaves behind. the main complainst against it, arnt that is leaves bacteria, it doesnt in mucus or anything else, its that it to effective and washes away bacteria that you need to be healthy and will in time give rise to super bugs.
> 
> i use it on my smelly bits, mostly my feet, that are prone to get a bit ripe if only washed in soap and water, as that leaves behind a significant % of the bacterial collony, which soon replenish themselves to there previous numbers and stinkyness. i wash them first in bio wash and then with soap ) shower gel) and they stay fresh for a considerable period of time, becouse ALL( but 1 %) the bacteria are dead




A lot of BJJ, grapplers and Judo people use the anti bacterial soap. I use it in the kitchen for washing hands before and after handling food.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 7, 2020)

From the FDA Antibacterial Soap? You Can Skip It, Use Plain Soap and Water


----------



## jobo (Mar 7, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> From the FDA Antibacterial Soap? You Can Skip It, Use Plain Soap and Water


have you read that? it seems not as it doesnt say anti bac soap isnt better than non anti bac soap at killing nastys, it certainly doesnt say it isnt as good.

it does say that some of the ingredients may be harmful in the long term

 it salso says that some contribute is making reststant strains of bacteria, which would only happen if they were indeed killing bacteria

as ive said before in every day life it makes no differance as you have an immune system, if you particulary want to kill nastys then its the correct thing to be using


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> From the FDA Antibacterial Soap? You Can Skip It, Use Plain Soap and Water




Plain soap? absolutely not, it has to smell nice! Pears soap preferably or the smell of many childhoods... coal tar soap!


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

You can always trust the Irish …. Deadly New Virus Called 'Gobshitis' Spreading Rapidly Nationwide


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 7, 2020)

jobo said:


> it does say that some of the ingredients may be harmful in the long term



Well that certainly sounds like something you'd want to use. #facepalm



> it salso says that some contribute is making reststant strains of bacteria, which would only happen if they were indeed killing bacteria



Dead bacteria don't develop resistance. They have to be alive to develop resistance. Ergo... it's not killing them.



> as ive said before in every day life it makes no differance as you have an immune system,



Right. Because nobody ever gets sick in every day life. You've said some massively idiotic things in the past, but this one certainly ranks in the top 5. On the other hand, given that it's you.... top 10.



> if you particulary want to kill nastys then its the correct thing to be using



And yet, when you show up with a cut that needs sutured, we use plain old soap and water to clean it first.


----------



## jobo (Mar 7, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well that certainly sounds like something you'd want to use. #facepalm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


people get sick all the time, they dont ussually die, because eventually their immune system wins.

your arguring with the fda that says it can cause super bugs, so youl need to take it up with them

in civilised countries they use anti septic to clean wounds, sure in backwoods places its only water, that why uk ERs unit smell of antispetic


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 7, 2020)

I'm going to be the voice of people with compromised immune systems for a moment. Crohn's, Colitis, Lupus, MS, Rheumatiod and Psoritiatic arthritis and an on-going list of other auto-immune illnesses are invisible to most people. Friends, neighbors, and even people you are training with manage these illnesses every hour of every day without ever saying a word or calling attention to them. Both their illness and the medications used to control them put them into that "...unless you have an underlying condition..." category. 

I would encourage everyone not to be so dismissive with that throw-away line. I'm not going to go digging for statistics, which just encourage competing statistics, but someone you care about is concerned about this in ways that you are not.

Bottom line on this virus, it's probably not the plague and we are better at medicine than we used to be, so we collectively will likely find some medical response to it at some point. But, it's way too early to write it off as inconsequential. We're going to be learning about it very quickly over the next weeks and months.


----------



## skribs (Mar 7, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> I'm going to be the voice of people with compromised immune systems for a moment. Crohn's, Colitis, Lupus, MS, Rheumatiod and Psoritiatic arthritis and an on-going list of other auto-immune illnesses are invisible to most people. Friends, neighbors, and even people you are training with manage these illnesses every hour of every day without ever saying a word or calling attention to them. Both their illness and the medications used to control them put them into that "...unless you have an underlying condition..." category.
> 
> I would encourage everyone not to be so dismissive with that throw-away line. I'm not going to go digging for statistics, which just encourage competing statistics, but someone you care about is concerned about this in ways that you are not.
> 
> Bottom line on this virus, it's probably not the plague and we are better at medicine than we used to be, so we collectively will likely find some medical response to it at some point. But, it's way too early to write it off as inconsequential. We're going to be learning about it very quickly over the next weeks and months.



I don't think it's a throwaway line. Those who have those conditions know how to be careful with their health. It's more aimed at preventing mass panic from those who don't have those conditions.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 7, 2020)

My point is that it's more people than you think and unless they've chosen to share you don't know who they are or even if you are talking to one of them.

And, some of them don't know who they are either. It's not easy or cheap to diagnose some of these things.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 7, 2020)

skribs said:


> I don't think it's a throwaway line.



True, it's not. However, it's important to remember that there are literally millions of people in the world with compromised immune systems.



> Those who have those conditions know how to be careful with their health.



You'd like to think, but not necessarily.



> It's more aimed at preventing mass panic from those who don't have those conditions.



If you want to prevent mass panic, you'll need a time machine to go back and totally change the way this has been handled.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> I would encourage everyone not to be so dismissive with that throw-away line. I'




As one of those compromised persons I am not dismissing anything nor am I writing off as inconsequential however I am not panic buying, nor thinking we're all doomed. However the way it's being dealt with by authorities varies vastly from country to country.



ShortBridge said:


> It's not easy or cheap to diagnose some of these things.



Cost me absolutely nothing to be diagnosed and supposing I get the virus it will cost me nothing to have treatment.



jobo said:


> hat why uk ERs unit smell of antispetic



This is true. Quite pleasant. 
In my house we chuck 'purple spray' on wounds, whether its cats, dogs, cows, sheep, humans etc lol. Doesn't work on fish though.


----------



## Buka (Mar 7, 2020)

I, too, am one of those people with a compromised immune system. I also work at one of the filthiest airports I've ever seen.

But, hey, you be careful and do what you can to protect yourself and everybody else. And always keep in mind what the job of the media is. It's not to inform, it's to sell soap. By that I mean to sell commercial airtime.

"Your life is in danger!!! Film at eleven."


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 7, 2020)

I'm happy to hear, Tez, that your heathcare is free and effective. It does make a difference.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 7, 2020)

I am also one of those compromised immune folks, living well, but always vigilant. 

I am also married to an accomplished, professional journalist who is not in any way incented to sell soap or anything else. Nor is she part of a conspiracy.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Cost me absolutely nothing to be diagnosed and supposing I get the virus it will cost me nothing to have treatment.
> .



On this side of the Pond, it most definitely does not work that way.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 7, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> As one of those compromised persons I am not dismissing anything nor am I writing off as inconsequential however I am not panic buying, nor thinking we're all doomed. However the way it's being dealt with by authorities varies vastly from country to country.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From what i understand, you would have to havr some sort of evidence of an immune compromised condition for them to get you the initial diagnosis. I might be wrong. If it does, then there would still be people unaware of their conditions.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> On this side of the Pond, it most definitely does not work that way.




Sadly not, I know. It can mean here that we have overcrowded A&E's because people know they can go and be treated, no worrying about the costs etc but on a scale of one to ten it's pretty much an eight and a half even a nine sometimes. the official approach here in the UK is measured, it's medical led which is always good rather than politician led. This is the England body, some of the info maybe helpful to non Brits, as might the Scottish site. Public Health England

HPS Website - Coronavirus (COVID-19)


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> From what i understand, you would have to havr some sort of evidence of an immune compromised condition for them to get you the initial diagnosis. I might be wrong. If it does, then there would still be people unaware of their conditions.




Here they are doing contact testing, as soon as a person is tested positive, they trace all contacts, in some places there's drive through testing places. You can also call the NHS and they will advise whether you should self isolate ( we are expected to self isolate here to prevent infections spreading), a medic can come out to test you as well. You don't need a diagnosis of any other conditions to be tested.


PHE novel coronavirus diagnostic test rolled out across UK


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> The Coronavirus is what it is, we do get regular 'visits' from viruses, if people have good hygiene anyway they are less at risk of catching a lot of things, with all this handwashing etc I'd hope food poisoning and the transmitting of colds and flu would lessen. Posting up numbers of people who died from Coronavirus, arguing about hand sanitisers ( small bottles are selling online for 50 times what they normally sell at and are being stolen from hospitals), not drinking Corona beer, beating up Asian people and crying 'woe is us' is pointless.
> 
> the Yorkshire view.
> Coronavirus: why we must all keep calm and carry on – Jayne Dowle


I agree with the vast majority of those things being pointless.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> A vaccine is expected soon.Israeli scientists: 'In a few weeks, we will have coronavirus vaccine'
> 
> However the anti vaxxers will throw things out when they refuse to have it and cause those who can't have it to get ill, as they are now with other diseases.


I hope that comes as quickly as they are saying; it would be well ahead of most prior estimates for a vaccine.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2020)

jobo said:


> may be we are talking about different things ? im talking about anti bacterial soap, ( solid, liqued or thick liqued other wise known as gel), which as the name sugests is SOAP that a) washes and b) kills bacteria that the wasing leaves behind. the main complainst against it, arnt that is leaves bacteria, it doesnt in mucus or anything else, its that it to effective and washes away bacteria that you need to be healthy and will in time give rise to super bugs.
> 
> i use it on my smelly bits, mostly my feet, that are prone to get a bit ripe if only washed in soap and water, as that leaves behind a significant % of the bacterial collony, which soon replenish themselves to there previous numbers and stinkyness. i wash them first in bio wash and then with soap ) shower gel) and they stay fresh for a considerable period of time, becouse ALL( but 1 %) the bacteria are dead


Yes, we were. I thought you were talking about sanitizer gel vs. soap. Antibacterial soap does do double duty.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Plain soap? absolutely not, it has to smell nice! Pears soap preferably or the smell of many childhoods... coal tar soap!


Big "yes" on that coal tar soap!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2020)

skribs said:


> I don't think it's a throwaway line. Those who have those conditions know how to be careful with their health. It's more aimed at preventing mass panic from those who don't have those conditions.


I think it's a step more than that (which I think was his point). If you and I have strong immune systems and just decide we'll weather the storm (take few precautions), we become part of the vector (I think that's the term) for spreading the virus. That raises the risk for folks with impaired immunity.

It's important that healthy folks take reasonable precautions, so the less-healthy don't have to take unreasonable precautions like avoiding contact with everyone.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Cost me absolutely nothing to be diagnosed and supposing I get the virus it will cost me nothing to have treatment.


"Cost at POS" isn't the same as "cost". I admire the NHS you guys have, but it doesn't actually render free service - it just distributes that cost better, so you (the entire nation) spread it well over time and individuals. Personally, I think it's a better approach, but that's me, and getting awfully close to political discussion.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> "Cost at POS" isn't the same as "cost". I admire the NHS you guys have, but it doesn't actually render free service - it just distributes that cost better, so you (the entire nation) spread it well over time and individuals. Personally, I think it's a better approach, but that's me, and getting awfully close to political discussion.




Well, it's totally free for me, I don't pay National Insurance being retired and all my prescriptions are free.  you are quite right about how it's paid for though.  The important thing at the moment is that none needs to fear having to pay if they think they have or indeed do have the Coronavirus.
A big thing here is if you have been in contact with or have the virus even if you will fine is to self isolate for 14 days, not go out or 'just pop into work', the sick pay rules which usually mean you get paid after three days off sick have been amended to start on the first day.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

This is very true, takes a lot to rattle them up here, I do mean a lot. we've had foot and mouth which wiped out prize dairy herds, floods which devastated homes and businesses ( they are still mopping up after third flood in nine months), mine explosions and colliery disasters, bombings, fires, Hillsborough disaster and much more yet Yorkshire people just carry on. 'Put kettle on lass' indeed.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> "Cost at POS" isn't the same as "cost". I admire the NHS you guys have, but it doesn't actually render free service - it just distributes that cost better, so you (the entire nation) spread it well over time and individuals. Personally, I think it's a better approach, but that's me, and getting awfully close to political discussion.


The problem for us is that we pay twice:  insurance premiums, and then copays and coinsurance.  The insurance companies are in the way.


----------



## geezer (Mar 7, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> On this side of the Pond, it most definitely does not work that way.


Well, Canadians are on this side of that pond too, and it does work that way for them.

As for me, I'll qualify for medicare this summer. But then I lose my family coverage through work. My wife can get coverage through her employer, but not my daughter (currently on my plan) who has some issues. I'm frankly quite worried about that.

Maybe I need a second job ...or new career altogether. Been thinking Mexico is a cheap place to live. BTW, have any of you seen that Clint Eastwood movie, _The Mule?_




_
_


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 7, 2020)

2 cases of Coronavirus confirmed just a few miles (about 20 minutes)  north of me.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 7, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> A vaccine will be found, probably in the next four weeks, and it will pass.


Not sure I would trust a a Vaccine that was created that quickly.  They are still having difficulty in understanding the virus and the US just recently got their testing kits to a reliable quality.
Even CDC is projecting 1 or 2 years



Tez3 said:


> Looking at the rate of suicide, the second highest cause of death in the US and rising fast in the UK I think the Coronavirus isn't actually the thing we should worry about the most.


Suicide isn't contagious.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 7, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> A report last night included news from the main testing site near Seattle. Approximately 5% of those with similar symptoms who were tested, tested positive for covid-19. This suggests a large number of unreported cases.


I wonder at what number do they determine that there is no benefit to tracking possible exposures.  



Xue Sheng said:


> 2 cases of Coronavirus confirmed just a few miles (about 20 minutes)  north of me.


That sucks.  I think the county I live in got 3 new cases.  So far the Georgia cases are from people who traveled to Italy.  The last headline I saw about Italy is that they are preparing to do a big lockdown of some sort.


----------



## geezer (Mar 7, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Suicide isn't contagious.



Oh? Contaigion isn't always caused by biological agents. You should goolgle: _suicide contagion_.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> The problem for us is that we pay twice:  insurance premiums, and then copays and coinsurance.  The insurance companies are in the way.


I wanted to further point out: we pay insurance premiums, which you may as well call a “tax”.  But the insurance company who collects those premiums has zero intention of spending the money on us.  Their intention is to keep as much of it as possible, and make as big a profit as they can, above actual payroll and operating expenses.  They want to simply put it into their own pockets, and not do any good for you.

Personally, I would be happy to pay a “tax”, knowing that the money will then be spent on me/us.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 7, 2020)

Just had our first case of Covid-19 announced in my town (Lexington Kentucky). 

A couple of the instructors at my gym have an immunosuppressed kid. I think they may be considering taking a break from training, since grappling would doubtless be a good way of passing on the virus.


----------



## skribs (Mar 7, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you want to prevent mass panic, you'll need a time machine to go back and totally change the way this has been handled.



You're right.  We've had only 1 case in my county so far, but we already have 3 students in my demonstration team alone that have bowed out of classes for the entire month of March.  The rest of the classes have been a lot smaller.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not sure I would trust a a Vaccine that was created that quickly.  They are still having difficulty in understanding the virus and the US just recently got their testing kits to a reliable quality.
> Even CDC is projecting 1 or 2 years
> 
> Suicide isn't contagious.



You haven't read the information I put up from the NHS have you? they do understand the virus it's a variant of known ones ( since the 1960s) which have caused previous outbreaks, testing kits have been out for a while, the labs here have been working on the virus for a while as have others in Europe. Perhaps your CDC is just being pessimistic.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 8, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps your CDC is just being pessimistic.


Could be.  I'll be counting the days to see how long it takes.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> That sucks.  I think the county I live in got 3 new cases.  So far the Georgia cases are from people who traveled to Italy.  The last headline I saw about Italy is that they are preparing to do a big lockdown of some sort.



a week ago we had 1 "reported" but this morning we have 91, mostly down state.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 8, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> a week ago we had 1 "reported" but this morning we have 91, mostly down state.


I'm expecting 2 types of runs on the store.  The first one is currently happening now where people are starting to stockpile items.  Which makes sense to me.  I don't think the stocking up is a bad thing, when it's not done all at once.  People in general probably stockpile items even when there is no virus.  It just causes problems when everyone stockpiles at the same freaking time.  So the first run is a light run on getting supplies.  In the area that I live in, I think we are still in this first run.

I haven't seen anything like this yet.  I think the public officials messed up by saying.  "There's no need to panic"  There has been a lot of distrust building up with the federal government over many years.  In general and world-wide people really don't trust their government.  Conspiracies theories control a lot of what people think.  So when someone says. "Don't Panic", then naturally they are going to panic.






The second type of run will be the panic run.  This will probably be when people start dying in larger numbers.  I'm not sure what happens if the grocery store employees get sick.  Do they close down for a week or two?  I'm not worried, just curious. I've been ahead of the rush to the stores and by just buying a little more during regular grocery shopping.  My daughter in Australia on the other hand, is not a news person so she didn't take it seriously.  For the past few days she's been saying that she hasn't been able to get what she needs at the store because it's all gone.  I'm curious how that plays out as her toilet paper will run out soon.  The virus doesn't seem to be widespread in her area.

The craziest thing I've seen people around here buy is bottled water.  I've never seen Walmart sell out of water but they are almost out.  It's strange to me because water comes into the house.   

I'm not sure while I find all of this entertaining (in a healthy way, not as in fun to watch).  I guess since there's a lot of scenarios to analyze.  My brain is just getting an extra dose of what it already does, Analyze stuff.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 8, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> a week ago we had 1 "reported" but this morning we have 91, mostly down state.


I'm supposed to be heading to Albany in a week with some family for two days of march madness...found out from my dad last night that, as a result of this, they may be playing to an "open house" because of this, essentially cancelling our trip.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 8, 2020)

For those in the US.  Here's a snap 


Xue Sheng said:


> a week ago we had 1 "reported" but this morning we have 91, mostly down state.


I'm guessing that a lot of states will have some big increases like that once testing gets out.  I'm curious if they are going to test people who have mild symptoms.  It seems that they would want to test those people as well so that they aren't accidentally releasing someone who is infected back into the community

The map below is from the CDC.  I've been watching this thing fill up.  Just so no one freaks out.  It just shows how many countries are reporting cases.  A country can report 1 case and that would be enough to join the list of countries.  For me personally, I 'm curious to know if it's going to touch every country and if so, how long will that take.


----------



## jobo (Mar 8, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm expecting 2 types of runs on the store.  The first one is currently happening now where people are starting to stockpile items.  Which makes sense to me.  I don't think the stocking up is a bad thing, when it's not done all at once.  People in general probably stockpile items even when there is no virus.  It just causes problems when everyone stockpiles at the same freaking time.  So the first run is a light run on getting supplies.  In the area that I live in, I think we are still in this first run.
> 
> I haven't seen anything like this yet.  I think the public officials messed up by saying.  "There's no need to panic"  There has been a lot of distrust building up with the federal government over many years.  In general and world-wide people really don't trust their government.  Conspiracies theories control a lot of what people think.  So when someone says. "Don't Panic", then naturally they are going to panic.
> View attachment 22722
> ...


 these people are clearly stupid, if you are worried about the virus, then dont go and hang out at a crowded supermarket, if your not worried about the virus then there no need to bulk buy, as the shelves will just be restocked by the healthy workforce

why everyone is panic buying toilet paper is beyond me, its the least consideration in a siege, if you run out of food the last thing you need is toilet paper, if you dont run out of food, you can use the food wrappers to wipe your bum


----------



## geezer (Mar 8, 2020)

jobo said:


> ...these people are clearly *stupid*...


Yep. Definitely caught up in the irrationality of a _panic._



jobo said:


> ...if you run out of food the last thing you need is toilet paper, if you dont run out of food, you can use the food wrappers to wipe your bum.



...or pieces of paper towels, strips of newspaper and magazines (avoid the stiff, glossy pages), pieces of rags, etc. A single rag cut into small pieces would go a long ways. And before Tez weighs in again with her worries about the plumbing, let me clarify:

Throw the used bits out in a covered trash can (or inside a re-used plastic bag) just like they do in many parts of the world where the sewage system, although perfectly adequate, is not set up to handle big wads of paper fiber. Recently I've travelled to some really nice places in Latin America where that is the custom. In beautiful hotels with potable water from the tap and very modern bathroom fixtures, it was common to see a sign asking guests to put used toilet paper into a covered trash container next to the toilet rather than flush it. No big deal.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> For those in the US.  Here's a snap
> 
> I'm guessing that a lot of states will have some big increases like that once testing gets out.  I'm curious if they are going to test people who have mild symptoms.  It seems that they would want to test those people as well so that they aren't accidentally releasing someone who is infected back into the community
> 
> ...



Every continent except Antarctica


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Every continent except Antarctica


We haven’t tested the penguins yet.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> I'm supposed to be heading to Albany in a week with some family for two days of march madness...found out from my dad last night that, as a result of this, they may be playing to an "open house" because of this, essentially cancelling our trip.



There are 2 confirmed cases 40 miles north of Albany, none confirmed in Albany as of yet. However the one 40 miles north of Albany contracted it in a meeting in NYC. The majority of state offices in Albany, including mine, have people traveling back and forth between Albany and NYC all the time. I have no doubt there will be some in Albany soon. I have a co-worker that will call in sick, and then show up to do a couple things and go home, so.....And the governor declared a state of emergency already.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> We haven’t tested the penguins yet.



Well...we should...


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm expecting 2 types of runs on the store.  The first one is currently happening now where people are starting to stockpile items.  Which makes sense to me.  I don't think the stocking up is a bad thing, when it's not done all at once.  People in general probably stockpile items even when there is no virus.  It just causes problems when everyone stockpiles at the same freaking time.  So the first run is a light run on getting supplies.  In the area that I live in, I think we are still in this first run.
> 
> I haven't seen anything like this yet.  I think the public officials messed up by saying.  "There's no need to panic"  There has been a lot of distrust building up with the federal government over many years.  In general and world-wide people really don't trust their government.  Conspiracies theories control a lot of what people think.  So when someone says. "Don't Panic", then naturally they are going to panic.
> View attachment 22722
> ...


The only thing that stores in my area are out of is purell and rubbing alcohol.  Otherwise, they have been very well stocked, not running out.  I was at my local Trader Joe’s and Safeway today.

Regarding the bottled water, it seems things would need to take a dramatic turn for the worst if the public water service shut down.  I suppose it is possible, but I don’t know how automated that system is, nor how many employees are needed to keep the daily operations running.  If they all got sick and the community were so heavily infected that no replacements could be found, I suppose it could happen.

If it does, keep in mind that your hot water heater is full of good, clean water.

I’ve also got two 55 gallon drums that I just sanitized, filled, and treated the water for storage.  I also recently bought a modest supply of bottled water to pad out my supply.  But here in California it is a good idea to keep a water supply.  In my area we can get hit with summer temperatures over 110 F, and we have had some droughts in recent years.  If water rationing happens, or the drought gets severe enough, having a supply to buy some time while you develop an exit plan is a good idea.  So that isn’t specifically a Covid-19 issue.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 8, 2020)

jobo said:


> these people are clearly stupid, if you are worried about the virus, then dont go and hang out at a crowded supermarket, if your not worried about the virus then there no need to bulk buy, as the shelves will just be restocked by the healthy workforce
> 
> why everyone is panic buying toilet paper is beyond me, its the least consideration in a siege, if you run out of food the last thing you need is toilet paper, if you dont run out of food, you can use the food wrappers to wipe your bum


The toilet paper thing was a big surprise to me.  I'm more concerned about running out of toilet paper at work lol.  I didn't think about it, but Friday was the first time I've seen the bathroom run out of paper towels and for the bin in the bathroom not being full of paper towels.  



Xue Sheng said:


> And the governor declared a state of emergency already.


 more states will probably do the same thing as more test kits become available.  I know that CDC's "tune" has changed.  I suspect that my job will have us working from home at some point since we have quite a few people in their 60's and 70's working in upper management.  They aren't spooked yet so, Looks like I'll be heading to work on Monday.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 8, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I suppose it is possible, but I don’t know how automated that system is, nor how many employees are needed to keep the daily operations running.


 I can't speak for all water treatment plants but they the one that I used to do tours at had surprisingly few staff there.  The facility is big but the things that have to be manages are done by computers for the most part.  There's manual movement of chemicals and waste solids, plastics bags, and other items that shouldn't be in the water.  When I used to do tours at the waste water center  here, I didn't see more than 10 people at any given day.  Older systems probably require more people.

Hopefully we don't have to find that answer from first hand experience.  

Well just an hour ago. It's been reported that  "*Now some Georgia grocery stores are placing limits on the number of the products you can buy to prevent buying frenzies*."  Source:Publix, Kroger limiting purchases of hand sanitizer, more due to coronavirus fears

This is something they probably should have done on the "front end of this ride."


----------



## 333kenshin (Mar 8, 2020)

Setting aside the science (or pseudo-science, or disagreements over the science) of the virus, have your dojos seen dips in attendance or even students putting their subscriptions on hold due to desire to minimize exposure?

Is anyone's studio preparing contingencies should pressure from students/parents result in revenue loss? eg installation of hands-free hand santizer or water dispensers, doing more forms instead of grappling to minimize physical contact, etc?

PS: speaking of science, this post explains at the molecular level why soap is superior to antibacterial gel
Palli Thordarson on Twitter


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 8, 2020)

I am working through changes to how we train temporarily. The way we normally train is normally very sweaty and high contact. That doesn't seem wise until we know more.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 8, 2020)

333kenshin said:


> Setting aside the science (or pseudo-science, or disagreements over the science) of the virus, have your dojos seen dips in attendance or even students putting their subscriptions on hold due to desire to minimize exposure?
> 
> Is anyone's studio preparing contingencies should pressure from students/parents result in revenue loss? eg installation of hands-free hand santizer or water dispensers, doing more forms instead of grappling to minimize physical contact, etc?
> 
> ...


I’ve made no changes, thus far, other than telling students to stay home if at all not feeling well. If it reaches this area, I’ll shave my beard (a.k.a. facial Petri dish) and probably focus more on forms, fitness, and pad work for a time.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Mar 9, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Interesting development
> 
> Per relatives in China...the Coronavirus comes form America
> Per other contacts in China....spreading rumors will now get you arrested and.....Truth is what the government tells you it is....that is all



My wife spends a great deal of time on Korea TV channels.  According to her, Korea gets more blame when China is trying to shift blame.  That is complicated as it revolves around the travels of members of a cult even the everyday Korean wasn't aware of.  They are pretty much more aware now as many of the sort of secret workings of the cult are getting a lot of attention and exposure (no pun intended) right now, both from the government and news media.


----------



## geezer (Mar 9, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> I am working through changes to how we train temporarily. The way we normally train is normally very sweaty and high contact. That doesn't seem wise until we know more.



Time to change up the curriculum and have everybody train_ long pole? 
_
Boy, that would have really upped the enrollment in my old association. They made you wait years to learn the pole form. I can just imagine all the intermediates thinking, "Wow, thanks to Covid 19, I can actually train with the pole ...and stay like 10 feet away from everybody at the same time." 

Or you could just do forms and solo conditioning .


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 9, 2020)

No Coronavirus in Greenland







105 and climbing in NY


----------



## Buka (Mar 9, 2020)

Our local Costco was out of toilette paper and sanitary, bleach wipes.

So I stocked up on the next, best thing. Multiple, large of bottles of Grey Goose.

One must be prepared, after all.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 10, 2020)

geezer said:


> And before Tez weighs in again with her worries about the plumbing, let me clarify:




No I didn't have worries about plumbing, my comment was about making a mountain out of a molehill, ie going to strange lengths just to wipe your backside, use water for goodness sake as they do in the Middle East and Asia. 

Yes lots of people are going to get this virus and those people are going to be very surprised they aren't very ill, those that will die are dying already from serious conditions that the virus will exacerbate. The virus on it's own doesn't kill. 

In the UK and the EU, plans for epidemics and pandemics were sorted years ago, the politicians aren't responsible for them, the medical agencies, utility and others responsible for the infrastructure laid them down, the Civil Service here in the UK and their equivalents elsewhere will do their usual jobs of holding everything together.  
Plan from UK dated *2006.* Contingency planning for a possible flu pandemic


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 10, 2020)

Medical agencies?

Oh no, we got rid of those and replaced them with a little thing called Freedom!


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 10, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> Medical agencies?
> 
> Oh no, we got rid of those and replaced them with a little thing called Freedom!


???


----------



## jobo (Mar 10, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> Medical agencies?
> 
> Oh no, we got rid of those and replaced them with a little thing called Freedom!


ame


ShortBridge said:


> Medical agencies?
> 
> Oh no, we got rid of those and replaced them with a little thing called Freedom!


you appear to have the CDC ? i suspect your '' freedoms'' will soon disappear if its deemed necessary


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2020)

I now live in the state with the highest number of Coronavirus infected folks.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 10, 2020)

We had a federal pandemic response team in 2018, but we fired them all in a perge of government officials.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 10, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> Medical agencies?
> 
> Oh no, we got rid of those and replaced them with a little thing called Freedom!




and the CDC is what, chopped liver? You don't have medical officers in charge of public health ie Surgeon General?


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 10, 2020)

Sort of we do, but it's strange times. They don't appear to be in charge.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make this political.


----------



## Buka (Mar 10, 2020)

It was a blustery, windy night last  night. As I was pounding my beat I was approaching a group of kids around twenty years old waiting curbside for their ride. One of them was seeing how far he could spit on the side walk, big spits all over the place. One of his loogies almost hit an old woman in the face. I snatched him by the scruff of his neck and shook him like a bad puppy. Told him I was going to wipe up the spit with his foofoo haircut. My Captain happened to be approaching from the other side, saw everything that happened.

Right at this time his ride pulled up, his mom, I still have the kid by the scruff. My Captain told the mom what had just happened. God bless her, she got out of the car and slapped that boy so hard. Told him "wait until I tell your father about this."

Good mom.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 10, 2020)

Buka said:


> It was a blustery, windy night last  night. As I was pounding my beat I was approaching a group of kids around twenty years old waiting curbside for their ride. One of them was seeing how far he could spit on the side walk, big spits all over the place. One of his loogies almost hit an old woman in the face. I snatched him by the scruff of his neck and shook him like a bad puppy. Told him I was going to wipe up the spit with his foofoo haircut. My Captain happened to be approaching from the other side, saw everything that happened.
> 
> Right at this time his ride pulled up, his mom, I still have the kid by the scruff. My Captain told the mom what had just happened. God bless her, she got out of the car and slapped that boy so hard. Told him "wait until I tell your father about this."
> 
> Good mom.


I haven't heard that phrase in a while. We need to hear it more often.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 10, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> Sort of we do, but it's strange times. They don't appear to be in charge.
> 
> Sorry, I didn't mean to make this political.


It isn't political.  It is simply the truth.  We have an administration that cannot seem to get its priorities straight, and a president who thinks his self-centered opinion matters when he wants to override scientists and medical and public health professionals.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 10, 2020)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
This is a reminder that political threads are not allowed here. Keep it non-political, or the thread will be locked.

Mark A Cochran
@Dirty Dog 
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 10, 2020)

I taught a small class last night with no contact, which was very difficult. There is certainly work to be done without contact, but I realize that my instruction style is pretty hands on. We have some dialogue going on about what to do and no drastic decisions are being made yet on a group level. I think that our risk of exposure and transmission is very high. One of us has a vulnerable parent at home and I have one of those conditions that makes me (somewhat) immuno-compromised. 

I have stated that no one will visit during this time, however long that is. 

I let my students know today that if any of them lose income as a result of this, that dues will be waived (assuming we're still training). That's a real possibility because businesses like restaurants and markets are not being patronized at normal rates. 

I've also proposed either having our classes earlier or shortening them so that we (I) can get a full 8 hours of sleep (we normally train until 10pm). I think that 8 hours can make a difference to the immune system and I normally sacrifice sleep, but I'm planning on prioritizing it for a while. 

I may try to dust off some crane forms that I haven't taught or practiced in a while, just to introduce some new challenges that don't involve cramming our hands in each other's faces. 

Things like Clorox wipes and hand sanitizer are almost at a black market, out of a guy's trunk level in Seattle right now, but we're cleaning as best we can with what we have and hand washing before and after class. Not touching your face is good training. Fortunately my SiFu made a big deal out of it with me years ago, so I can do it, but I haven't been as hard on my students, so it's more difficult for them. 

Sorry about tipping us into politics, I didn't ... I shouldn't have done that. The facts are that tests aren't available to us and we don't know what we don't know right now.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> Sorry about tipping us into politics, I didn't




I don't think it can be helped because how countries leaders manage a situation is always going to be of huge concern. Good planning is the key, and that planning be done by experts in their field.


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 11, 2020)

Just had the first confirmed case in my very city :s. A lady just got back from a trip to the US being unwell, and turns out she had coronavirus. She worked two shifts at the shopping centre where my partner works!

Still mass shortages of toilet paper too hehe. But overall I'm not worried. I think the effect of the belief systems you hold is quite dramatic on your immune system. People have gotten seriously sick due to simply believing that disease is all around them and they're in constant danger. So of course being sensible is a good idea, but mass panic can really convince people of very destructive things.


----------



## Cynik75 (Mar 11, 2020)

love. All schools and kindergardens in my country (Poland) will be closed since monday.


----------



## Balrog (Mar 11, 2020)

The corona virus scare is nothing but media hype and fearmongering.  There is no epidemic in the USA and probably won’t be because of the precautions we are taking.

I would consider H1N1 flu to be closer to an epidemic.  It’s killed more than 12000 people in the USA.  Corona virus has killed about 20.

Wash your hands early and often.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2020)

Balrog said:


> The corona virus scare is nothing but media hype and fearmongering. There is no epidemic in the USA and probably won’t be because of the precautions we are taking.



I hope you are right but very much think you aren't.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 11, 2020)

Mrs Xue is a trained TCM Doctor from China woh practices in the USA, In China she is an MD. I listen to her every-time the news is on and a politician is talking about how dire a situation this is.....her response is consistently...."SHUT UP!!!!" She says they have no clue, don't know what you are talking about, and have no medical background. 

She is also continually asking why they don't report the flu as much, or quarantine people ad close schools because someone has the flu, the flu kills more people and is equally contagious. 

It is a virus, it will make. you sick, follow the practices of hand washing and the other suggested things. Basically if you are not in the high risk group, you will be fine. 
It is, IMHO a politically manufactured panic. Not that there are political reasons, it is that the politicians talking have no idea what they are talking about. 
Listened to one over the past few days say, don't panic and in the next statement call it a life or death situation.......then the quarantine a bunch of folks and send in the national guard.....never asked an MD....just send in the military...and remember.....don't panic


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2020)

Other countries are handling it differently though, we've had no 'panic' from the government here even though members of that government have the virus ( sorry but I am laughing here). the Chief Medical Officer, Public Health England and the NHS are taking the lead, no troops have been put anywhere. Financial measures have been put in place so people can self isolate, also measures for businesses if they loose money because of the virus. We can phone the NHS helpline ( a permanent one) to fine out where to be tested if we need to be. 
The lead the government is taking is that yes it's an epidemic, may turn into a pandemic but 99% of people who catch it and many will, are going to get over it after a few uncomfortable days. Self isolation is necessary to protect those in the community who have underlying health issues notably COPD, heart disease and those with immune suppressing conditions and who are elderly. 

As I said before there were plans laid up here years ago in case of an epidemic or pandemic.
Coronavirus (COVID-19) action plan


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 11, 2020)

That sounds like a responsible government and civil approach.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> That sounds like a responsible government and civil approach.




It's what a couple of thousand years experience does for you, not our first epidemic lol


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 11, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> It's what a couple of thousand years experience does for you, not our first epidemic lol



Sure, just throw it in our 244 year old faces just because you guys were around for the bubonic plague


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Sure, just throw it in our 244 year old faces just because you guys were around for the bubonic plague




Which one? 

The village of the damned


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 11, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Which one?
> 
> The village of the damned



Sure, just KEEP rubbing it in


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 11, 2020)

Balrog said:


> The corona virus scare is nothing but media hype and fearmongering.  There is no epidemic in the USA and probably won’t be because of the precautions we are taking.
> 
> I would consider H1N1 flu to be closer to an epidemic.  It’s killed more than 12000 people in the USA.  Corona virus has killed about 20.
> 
> Wash your hands early and often.


well, the World Health Organization has declared Covid-19 to be a pandemic.  I don't think that is just media hype and fearmongering.

here is one news site reporting it, i've seen several including Time and NPR, although I don't yet see it in the WHO website.  Maybe i'm just missing it.  Coronavirus updates live: WHO declares COVID-19 disease to be a pandemic


----------



## jobo (Mar 11, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> well, the World Health Organization has declared Covid-19 to be a pandemic.  I don't think that is just media hype and fearmongering.
> 
> here is one news site reporting it, i've seen several including Time and NPR, although I don't yet see it in the WHO website.  Maybe i'm just missing it.  Coronavirus updates live: WHO declares COVID-19 disease to be a pandemic



declaring it a pandemic doesnt mean its serious, just widespread


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 11, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> well, the World Health Organization has declared Covid-19 to be a pandemic.  I don't think that is just media hype and fearmongering.
> 
> here is one news site reporting it, i've seen several including Time and NPR, although I don't yet see it in the WHO website.  Maybe i'm just missing it.  Coronavirus updates live: WHO declares COVID-19 disease to be a pandemic



Pandemic - (of a disease) prevalent over a whole country or the world.

WHO - Pandemic


> Pandemic is not a word to use lightly or carelessly. It is a word that, if misused, can cause unreasonable fear, or unjustified acceptance that the fight is over, leading to unnecessary suffering and death.
> 
> Describing the situation as a pandemic does not change WHO’s assessment of the threat posed by this virus. It doesn’t change what WHO is doing, and it doesn’t change what countries should do.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 11, 2020)

Seattle Public Schools just closed for at least 2 weeks.

I'm going to cancel my class for tonight and then reassess.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> although I don't yet see it in the WHO website.



It's here WHO Director-General's opening remarks at the media briefing on COVID-19 - 11 March 2020


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2020)

If you really want to scare yourself have a look at all the other epidemic going on in the world. Disease outbreaks


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 11, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> It's what a couple of thousand years experience does for you, not our first epidemic lol





Xue Sheng said:


> Sure, just throw it in our 244 year old faces just because you guys were around for the bubonic plague



I am not sure what to do with either of these statements.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 11, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I am not sure what to do with either of these statements.


Accept that we apparently have secret immortals in our midst.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Accept that we apparently have secret immortals in our midst.



No not really, we have written records here from Roman times onwards, including records of all the plagues here which sadly were many ( big one 664-689 BCE) the one people tend to remember as being the first was in 1350 BCE, It came back in 1361-64, 1368, 1371, 1373-75, 1390, 1405 and continued into the fifteenth century. There was also the 'London' Plagues of 1563, 1592, 1603 and 1625. The next biggest the 'Great Plague' was 1665-66, another in 1775-76 then 1832 then 1854 cholera. 
There's 500 years worth of written parliamentary records stored in the House of Commons alone. the National Archives has written records for the past thousand years. anyone can have access to them, I use them quite often for information as I am a historian by inclination, these include 

Documents from the central courts of law from the twelfth century onwards, including the Court of King's Bench, the Court of Common Pleas, the Court of Chancery, the Court of Exchequer, the Supreme Court of Judicature, the Central Criminal Court, Assizes, and many other courts
Medieval, early modern and modern records of central government
A large and disparate collection of maps, plans and architectural drawings
Records for family historians including wills, naturalisation certificates and criminal records
Service and operational records of the armed forces War Office, Admiralty etc.
Foreign Office and Colonial Office correspondence and files
Cabinet papers and Home Office records
Statistics of the Board of Trade
The surviving records of (mainly) the English railway companies, transferred from the British Railways Record Office


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 11, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> No not really, we have written records here from Roman times onwards, including records of all the plagues here which sadly were many ( big one 664-689 BCE) the one people tend to remember as being the first was in 1350 BCE, It came back in 1361-64, 1368, 1371, 1373-75, 1390, 1405 and continued into the fifteenth century. There was also the 'London' Plagues of 1563, 1592, 1603 and 1625. The next biggest the 'Great Plague' was 1665-66, another in 1775-76 then 1832 then 1854 cholera.
> There's 500 years worth of written parliamentary records stored in the House of Commons alone. the National Archives has written records for the past thousand years. anyone can have access to them, I use them quite often for information as I am a historian by inclination, these include
> 
> Documents from the central courts of law from the twelfth century onwards, including the Court of King's Bench, the Court of Common Pleas, the Court of Chancery, the Court of Exchequer, the Supreme Court of Judicature, the Central Criminal Court, Assizes, and many other courts
> ...


Not sure if it came off right through text, but I was joking. And from studying vikings I'm well aware + the rise/spread of christianity, I'm well aware that kept much better records than people probably expect of the time.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Not sure if it came off right through text, but I was joking. And from studying vikings I'm well aware + the rise/spread of christianity, I'm well aware that kept much better records than people probably expect of the time.




I know you were joking  I was writing that more to 'annoy' XS again!  than actually answer you.
The parchments from William the Conqueror's time are something to see though.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 11, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I know you were joking  I was writing that more to 'annoy' XS again!  than actually answer you.
> The parchments from William the Conqueror's time are something to see though.


What I love looking at is the various english chronicles. Literally a way to tell what happened/was considered important in various areas of england/ireland year by year.


----------



## skribs (Mar 11, 2020)

It could just be a slow week, but I think we're seeing less and less students.  I've had several parents tell me they will pull their kids out of TKD if their regular school closes down.  If we get a city-wide school closure like Seattle had, we may have to close, too (in fact, I'm not sure if that would be my Master's decision, or if the fact we're a school will close us automatically).  

I'll be honest, I'm not too horribly scared of the virus.  Not with my age and the fact I'm otherwise fairly healthy.  What worries me is if everything closes down, how am I going to get food?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 11, 2020)

skribs said:


> It could just be a slow week, but I think we're seeing less and less students.  I've had several parents tell me they will pull their kids out of TKD if their regular school closes down.  If we get a city-wide school closure like Seattle had, we may have to close, too (in fact, I'm not sure if that would be my Master's decision, or if the fact we're a school will close us automatically).
> 
> I'll be honest, I'm not too horribly scared of the virus.  Not with my age and the fact I'm otherwise fairly healthy.  What worries me is if everything closes down, how am I going to get food?


Patient's at my hospital have it, and while I haven't had direct contact with them (I think), all shift I've been sitting next to staff members who were treating them. I've been joking that I'd be fine if they gave it to me as it would be two weeks vacation minimum. The much bigger issue to me is the panic about it, and things closing down-The NBA season is suspended, and my tickets to the NCAA march madness first/second round in albany are useless!!


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 11, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> ... The much bigger issue to me is the panic about it, and things closing down-The NBA season is suspended, and my tickets to the NCAA march madness first/second round in albany are useless!!



I would argue that the bigger issue is people dying.


----------



## skribs (Mar 11, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> I would argue that the bigger issue is people dying.



It's not all black and white.  Everyone who makes a living based on those events is out of a job.  For the athletes, that's fine.  But for people like vendors, sound operators, janitors, etc., it most likely means they're laid off or on furlough until this crisis is over.  That may affect their livelihoods or their family's well-being.

Schools are closing, which means kids aren't getting the education they need.  Is it better than kids getting germs that could make them sick?  Yes.  But it still sucks.  They don't call things "the lesser of two evils" because one of them isn't evil.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 12, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> I would argue that the bigger issue is people dying.


That's fair. And in the places where there are a lot of deaths then yeah, that's the bigger issue. But if that's the case, people should be just as concerned about suicide, heart disease, drunk driving, and the flu. And people don't seem to be. And like skribs said people are getting laid off as a result of these things, or put on leave, which just causes more death, as people can't afford medical care, have difficulty with food, might lose their houses/apartments without rent for the month, all of which could lead to medical issues that can also kill them.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> It's not all black and white.  Everyone who makes a living based on those events is out of a job.  For the athletes, that's fine.  But for people like vendors, sound operators, janitors, etc., it most likely means they're laid off or on furlough until this crisis is over.  That may affect their livelihoods or their family's well-being.
> 
> Schools are closing, which means kids aren't getting the education they need.  Is it better than kids getting germs that could make them sick?  Yes.  But it still sucks.  They don't call things "the lesser of two evils" because one of them isn't evil.


And also the local businesses that depend on the foot traffic from those events and their employees. Stadiums/areas have a lot of businesses like restaurants and stores around them. March Madness in Albany not allowing spectators is a big to the local economy. Hotels won’t have the people they counted on, cabs, rental cars, restaurants, local shops, and so on. I live in the Albany area and can see which places will feel it the most.

It’s the same everywhere these things get cancelled. The longer it goes on for, the exponentially higher the chances of those places closing for good. The big chain-type places are far safer than the small mom and pop places. 

It’ll end soon though. Hopefully soon enough to keep small businesses from closing permanently and their employees from getting permanently laid off or bankrupt.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 12, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> as people can't afford medical care, have difficulty with food, might lose their houses/apartments without rent for the month, all of which could lead to medical issues that can also kill them.




We've just had measures put in place here so people can receive sickness benefit if they are ill or self isolate, small businesses have financial loans and grants available to help, larger companies will also have help. £2bn would be allocated to cover up to 2m firms employing fewer than 250 employees that lose out because staff are off sick.A series of cheap loans would also be on offer while smaller firms in some of the hardest-hit industries, including retailers and museums, would not have to pay business rates – a tax cut worth £1bn. A further £1bn would cover compensation for people on benefits who become sick plus a 
£34bn increase in NHS spending . Subscribe to read | Financial Times
The Governor of the Bank of England and the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced a lot of measures yesterday so the economic affects on people are mitigated as much as possible. I will add, not in a political way!, I roundly despise this government but the way they are dealing with this has been calm and measured allowing the medical and other relevant experts to do their 'thing'.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 12, 2020)

My thoughts on the whole thing from what I’ve put together from people I know who are truly “in the know”...

When the dust settles and we have some solid statistics, I don’t think the mortality rate from this is going to be very high. It’ll probably be lower than the flu or about equal. Not that people dying is anything good; just some perspective.

The panic from people who are working on it like WHO, CDC, HHS, etc. is that there’s too many unknowns. Will it mutate quickly and anything they’re currently working on be ineffective when it’s available?

It has apparently spread faster on a large scale than anything previously studied. Some things have spread quicker, but they were confined to smaller regions before running their course.

Then there’s the big question of will this go away with flu season, or will it stay. No one is banking on it going away in a few weeks/months on its own, regardless of what they’re publicly saying. They’re hoping it will, but that doesn’t mean they’re sitting back and counting on it. 

Treatments are a lot closer than people realize. It’s a matter of the balance of getting them out safely while getting them out as soon as possible. It would be irresponsible to give people a treatment that could potentially have longer term damage than what they currently have. In a very generalized sense - what if someone has a potential cure right now and gives it out, but a few years down the road a huge percentage of the people who took it develop cancer from it? 

Then there’s the matter of who’ll get the treatment first. How do you prioritize? The most sick? The biggest population likely to spread it further? The people with the highest risk of infection like health care workers?

There’s so many facets to it.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 12, 2020)

Coronavirus isn't spreading as fast as the swine flu did in 2009, Swine flu infected 'fifth of people'




JR 137 said:


> Then there’s the matter of who’ll get the treatment first.



Treatment isn't actually needed for the majority of people who get it, just the usual things you'd take and do for flu/cough/cold. The danger is for those especially elderly with underlying conditions. Everyone else gets over it.
Vaccination is needed to protect those with suppressed immune systems and those underlying conditions but then people should also be getting their flu and pneumonia vaccines and children theirs so we can protect the same people from all the other viruses and illnesses already out there.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 12, 2020)

Well, due to the Coronavirus my weekend plans have been shut down. Next weekend we were supposed to go to Boston and the following to NYC. I don't much care that we are not going to NYC, I don't much like NYC. But I do like Boston. Oh well, best to not to take unnecessary risks.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 12, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well, due to the Coronavirus my weekend plans have been shut down. Next weekend we were supposed to go to Boston and the following to NYC. I don't much care that we are not going to NYC, I don't much like NYC. But I do like Boston. Oh well, best to not to take unnecessary risks.




Ah spending time with family instead 

I did wonder last month when they announced deaths on the cruise ship in Japan that was being isolated because of the virus whether those people had actually died from the virus or been killed by their partners after spending 14 days stuck together in a little cabin.


----------



## jobo (Mar 12, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well, due to the Coronavirus my weekend plans have been shut down. Next weekend we were supposed to go to Boston and the following to NYC. I don't much care that we are not going to NYC, I don't much like NYC. But I do like Boston. Oh well, best to not to take unnecessary risks.


 your undoubtedly more at risk of catching it at home, in close confines of your friends and family than you are walking the streets of Boston or attending a sporting event or what have you

unless your going to isolate not only yourself but all the people in your domestic set up..

that said, catching it, unless your going to lock yourself away for some weeks to come has an element of inevitability about it

i was convinced i had it yesterday, felt rotten, banging head, running eyes and nose and, well i feel great today, im going to keep my distance from my aged mother, but seems as the staff at the home arnt doing such that is probably futile as well


----------



## Christopher Adamchek (Mar 12, 2020)

For me - minor reduction in contact of drills 
But the real kicker is several of my seminars and outreach classes have been cancelled due to the virus


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 12, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> I would argue that the bigger issue is people dying.



Fully agree. Somehow people have become so disenfranchised with death that it does not carry the weight it is supposed to.



skribs said:


> It's not all black and white. Everyone who makes a living based on those events is out of a job. For the athletes, that's fine. But for people like vendors, sound operators, janitors, etc., it most likely means they're laid off or on furlough until this crisis is over. That may affect their livelihoods or their family's well-being.
> 
> Schools are closing, which means kids aren't getting the education they need. Is it better than kids getting germs that could make them sick? Yes. But it still sucks. They don't call things "the lesser of two evils" because one of them isn't evil.



This is a very telling picture of the mentality of the last couple generations. It used to be preached and preached and preached to built a savings reserve so you were prepared to financially ride through something like this. Now a days, people live so far beyond their means (having tons of debt) that they think it is the norm. When the least little financial blip happens they freak out.
All that said, this is some next level stuff governments and businesses are doing. Regardless of the vehicle that drives economic factors like these, people should have a nest egg to be prepared.

It is interesting to compare the climate of countries with high outbreak. Historically, I would say Africa as a whole is the usual epicenter for things like this. It has barely been affected.
I hope and pray that all of this is a blip and will be over in a month or so. 

FYI: There are some incredible deals on flights right now. Last night we booked a trip to Vegas ($70 roundtrip) to see all the awesome sites within driving distance. Also booked a flight to the Caymans ($160 roundtrip) in September. 
There is always a silver lining out there somewhere.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 12, 2020)

People losing their livelyhood is serious as well. Seattle restaurants are closing. The people that work there, for the most past don't have savings, guaranteed income, or health insurance. It's hard to imagine all of those businesses reopening if they are closed for very long.


----------



## jobo (Mar 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Fully agree. Somehow people have become so disenfranchised with death that it does not carry the weight it is supposed to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yes a cheap holiday in other people misery, look appealing
 reminds me of when ''mad cow disease'' panic was at its height, i hit the super market to find they were almost literally giving beef away, i bought the lot, and then bought another freezer me and the dogs have never lived so well, i was really sorry when common sense returned


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> People losing their livelyhood is serious as well. Seattle restaurants are closing. The people that work there, for the most past don't have savings or guarantees income or health insurance. It's hard to imagine all of those businesses reopening if they are closed for very long.


Yeah, there are a whole lot of people working low wage jobs, who are simply unable to put away any savings.

We recently moved across the state, and it has taken some time to find solid employment.  My wife is currently a temporary part-time worker at the community college, and she is likely to lose her paycheck as they close the campus and move to online instruction.  I am a part-time worker, but not temporary, although after I joined the company, they announced the intention to close a lot of their operations.  So I will be out of a job in a few months, regardless.

In order to make our move, I needed to make a large early withdrawal from my retirement savings.  We meet with our tax guy tomorrow and will find out how much we owe in taxes and early withdrawal penalties.  It won’t be pretty.  The only means we have to pay it is to make another early withdrawal, and pay the penalty again at tax time next year. It could carry into the next year and the year after that, depending on our employment situation.  My entire retirement account could be obliterated inside of three or four years, and I’m nowhere near retirement yet.  But we needed to move, we could no longer afford to live where we had been living, and the retirement account was the only way to make it happen.  And then Covid-19 happens and just makes it all worse. So much for having some savings packed away.  It is crystal clear to me how fragile one’s economic situation can be.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> It could just be a slow week, but I think we're seeing less and less students.  I've had several parents tell me they will pull their kids out of TKD if their regular school closes down.  If we get a city-wide school closure like Seattle had, we may have to close, too (in fact, I'm not sure if that would be my Master's decision, or if the fact we're a school will close us automatically).



I don't think such an order has any impact on privately owned businesses. You're also not a school in this context.



> I'll be honest, I'm not too horribly scared of the virus.  Not with my age and the fact I'm otherwise fairly healthy.



And there's no reason to worry that you'd give it to someone who wouldn't survive it...



> What worries me is if everything closes down, how am I going to get food?



How are your archery skills?


----------



## jobo (Mar 12, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, there are a whole lot of people working low wage jobs, who are simply unable to put away any savings.
> 
> We recently moved across the state, and it has taken some time to find solid employment.  My wife is currently a temporary part-time worker at the community college, and she is likely to lose her paycheck as they close the campus and move to online instruction.  I am a part-time worker, but not temporary, although after I joined the company, they announced the intention to close a lot of their operations.  So I will be out of a job in a few months, regardless.
> 
> In order to make our move, I needed to make a large early withdrawal from my retirement savings.  We meet with our tax guy tomorrow and will find out how much we owe in taxes and early withdrawal penalties.  It won’t be pretty.  The only means we have to pay it is to make another early withdrawal, and pay the penalty again at tax time next year. It could carry into the next year and the year after that, depending on our employment situation.  My entire retirement account could be obliterated inside of three or four years, and I’m nowhere near retirement yet.  But we needed to move, we could no longer afford to live where we had been living, and the retirement account was the only way to make it happen.  And then Covid-19 happens and just makes it all worse. So much for having some savings packed away.  It is crystal clear to me how fragile one’s economic situation can be.


its a time of opportunity, use your saving to buy the stocks that have recently plunged in value.

set up a business delivering food to hypochondriacs,


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> How are your archery skills?


Mine aren’t too bad.  There maybe cause for them to improve.


----------



## skribs (Mar 12, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't think such an order has any impact on privately owned businesses. You're also not a school in this context.



The Seattle Dragons will be playing for an empty house.



Dirty Dog said:


> And there's no reason to worry that you'd give it to someone who wouldn't survive it...



If I thought I had it, I'd definitely stay home and try and self-quarantine.  I am trying to limit my exposure to people compared to normal.  But I would hope that those who are in greater danger would take appropriate measures.

My greatest worry is for myself.  Once I am taken care of, then I can worry about others.  In terms of worrying about myself, my worry is less about the virus, and more about my ability to satisfy my basic needs.



Dirty Dog said:


> How are your archery skills?



Non-existent, and I don't have a bow.  I have a couple of shotguns, though.

The bigger problem is not so much with my ability to kill an animal, but rather my ability to butcher it and then safely cook the meat.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> If I thought I had it, I'd definitely stay home and try and self-quarantine.



You're contagious for up to 14 days before you have any symptoms.



> Non-existent, and I don't have a bow.  I have a couple of shotguns, though.
> 
> The bigger problem is not so much with my ability to kill an animal, but rather my ability to butcher it and then safely cook the meat.



You don't know how to cut up a critter and cook it???
Here's a quick How To.
Get a sharp knife. Make it sharper.
Open up the belly of the critter.
Remove all the squishy bits and chuck 'em.
Remove the furry bits. You won't know how to tan hide, so chuck 'em.
Cut off the meaty bits.
Fire up the grill and toss them on.
Season to taste.
Don't overcook them.


----------



## skribs (Mar 12, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're contagious for up to 14 days before you have any symptoms.



Well, the current advice everyone has is "if you are sick, stay home."  So unfortunately that's what I have to work with.



Dirty Dog said:


> Here's a quick How To.
> Get a sharp knife. Make it sharper.
> Open up the belly of the critter.
> Remove all the squishy bits and chuck 'em.
> ...



For once you have over-estimated me.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> Well, the current advice everyone has is "if you are sick, stay home."  So unfortunately that's what I have to work with.



Actually, the current advise is ' If you're sick, stay home. If you're not sick, stay home anyway." Social distancing will have a huge impact on how wide this spreads.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 12, 2020)

at this juncture of my day after dealing with panicky folks, worried about how they are going to work from home, and making me set up copious laptops...its time for this


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> This is a very telling picture of the mentality of the last couple generations. It used to be preached and preached and preached to built a savings reserve so you were prepared to financially ride through something like this. Now a days, people live so far beyond their means (having tons of debt) that they think it is the norm. When the least little financial blip happens they freak out.
> All that said, this is some next level stuff governments and businesses are doing. Regardless of the vehicle that drives economic factors like these, people should have a nest egg to be prepared.


From my experience dealing with people who have had mental health issues due to financial stress, it doesn't match up with it being a generational mentality thing. What seems to happen is when 40+ folks that have money businesses fail, or they get laid off, they don't have enough saved to continue their/their families lifestyle. Often as a result in part because they did not keep up with new training in their fields, so can't get a new job. With the under 30 folks, it seems to be more that they are working full time and struggle to survive (which will eventually translate to if they lose their job and/or business flops and have a family, they'll have nothing to rely on in the future when they have a family). 30-40 folks can go either way.


----------



## jobo (Mar 12, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> at this juncture of my day after dealing with panicky folks, worried about how they are going to work from home, and making me set up copious laptops...its time for this


spooky, ive got exactly that track playing


----------



## jobo (Mar 12, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> From my experience dealing with people who have had mental health issues due to financial stress, it doesn't match up with it being a generational mentality thing. What seems to happen is when 40+ folks that have money businesses fail, or they get laid off, they don't have enough saved to continue their/their families lifestyle. Often as a result in part because they did not keep up with new training in their fields, so can't get a new job. With the under 30 folks, it seems to be more that they are working full time and struggle to survive (which will eventually translate to if they lose their job and/or business flops and have a family, they'll have nothing to rely on in the future when they have a family). 30-40 folks can go either way.


people should try to live with in their means or at least have loss of job insurance on their loans. its really easy, dont spend money faster than you get it, save up for things, buy second hand, say no to the kids, partner, dont care if you have the worse car in the street

and most of all, stop buying starbucks ( other brand available)

it a point of considerable annoyance to my better of relatives that i have everything they have, usually better whilst owing no one a penny, be cause of prudent purchase policy, if its not an absolute bargain i do with out until an absolute bargain materialises


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 12, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, the current advise is ' If you're sick, stay home. If you're not sick, stay home anyway." Social distancing will have a huge impact on how wide this spreads.


I’m trying quarantine my mother. And I’m not going to visit her, regardless of if I’m symptomatic or not. She had a kidney transplant a few years ago and is on immunosuppressants.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 12, 2020)

jobo said:


> people should try to live with in their means or at least have loss of job insurance on their loans. its really easy, dont spend money faster than you get it, save up for things, buy second hand, say no to the kids, partner, dont care if you have the worse car in the street
> 
> and most of all, stop buying starbucks ( other brand available)
> 
> it a point of considerable annoyance to my better of relatives that i have everything they have, usually better whilst owing no one a penny, be cause of prudent purchase policy, if its not an absolute bargain i do with out until an absolute bargain materialises


I agree, people should live within their means. I was just arguing that it's not a generational thing, at least not how Dvochran was stating it-from the people I've seen who are struggling with financial issues, the younger generation seems to be mostly a result of not having enough money to begin with, and the older generation seems to be people who didn't live within their means and are now struggling.


----------



## jobo (Mar 12, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> I agree, people should live within their means. I was just arguing that it's not a generational thing, at least not how Dvochran was stating it-from the people I've seen who are struggling with financial issues, the younger generation seems to be mostly a result of not having enough money to begin with, and the older generation seems to be people who didn't live within their means and are now struggling.


it is to some degree generational. its just want it now, get the CC out has been running for several generations now, hell the whole economy would shut down, if people saved up for things or even made do and mend

however the throw away and buy new society means you can live in the margins very nicely indeed for very little

i grabbed my my favourite leather reclining chair out of a skip, my sister was disgusted i could sink so low, its green i told her and its stil better than the one she paid 800 for


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> From my experience dealing with people who have had mental health issues due to financial stress, it doesn't match up with it being a generational mentality thing. What seems to happen is when 40+ folks that have money businesses fail, or they get laid off, they don't have enough saved to continue their/their families lifestyle. Often as a result in part because they did not keep up with new training in their fields, so can't get a new job. With the under 30 folks, it seems to be more that they are working full time and struggle to survive (which will eventually translate to if they lose their job and/or business flops and have a family, they'll have nothing to rely on in the future when they have a family). 30-40 folks can go either way.


Yup.  My wife and I always lived within our means.

After close to twenty years in our jobs, we were both laid off in 2017.  We did some retraining, hoping to get into a less stressful /more fulfilling career, and recognizing the likelihood of a lower paycheck in doing so.  Eventually the non-retirement savings/severance pay ran out and our time living in the San Francisco area (most expensive in the nation) was up.  We saw the need to get out and so we did.  But it has been anything but a smooth and easy transition.  I guess in hindsight, we should have made the move as soon as we were laid off, when we still had some non-retirement savings.  But we hoped to be able to continue living in the area where she was born and raised and her parents still live, and where I had lived since 1994. So we gave it our best run until the money ran out.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 12, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> From my experience dealing with people who have had mental health issues due to financial stress, it doesn't match up with it being a generational mentality thing. What seems to happen is when 40+ folks that have money businesses fail, or they get laid off, they don't have enough saved to continue their/their families lifestyle. Often as a result in part because they did not keep up with new training in their fields, so can't get a new job. With the under 30 folks, it seems to be more that they are working full time and struggle to survive (which will eventually translate to if they lose their job and/or business flops and have a family, they'll have nothing to rely on in the future when they have a family). 30-40 folks can go either way.



Who said anything about mental health issues? Please do not try to hijack the post. Nothing was ever said about mental health. And the fact that you frame your argument for people in their 30's and 40's is telling. 
I already owned 5 businesses by the age of 35. I had over 100 people on payroll by the age of 40. Three of the businesses I have since sold for a profit. 

noun: *mentality*; plural noun: *mentalities*

The characteristic attitude of mind or way of thinking of a person or group.

"the yuppie mentality of the eighties"

Similar:
way of thinking
frame of mind
way someone's mind works
mind
mind set

I hope you understand your gaff.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 12, 2020)

My job just evacuated the building today around 1 PM.   An employee stated that he/she may have been exposed to the Corona virus so now I'm at home Self Quarantined in a small room. 

I'm not sick or anything but there were a few sick people who were in the building.  Not sure what they had. Only time will tell now.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 12, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> It is crystal clear to me how fragile one’s economic situation can be.


It is WAY too late in the game to just now have this thought process. 
It is every person's responsibility. Not a company or business they work for. The latter only provides supplement to what a person should already be doing for themselves. 
Our benefits package worked out to about 8% of a persons hourly wage in dollar value benefits. Plus we paid extra for our benefits provider to have one on one meetings with employees about their benefits/retirement.
How is this not more than generous?


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It is WAY too late in the game to just now have this thought process.
> It is every person's responsibility. Not a company or business they work for. The latter only provides supplement to what a person should already be doing for themselves.
> Our benefits package worked out to about 8% of a persons hourly wage in dollar value benefits. Plus we paid extra for our benefits provider to have one on one meetings with employees about their benefits/retirement.
> How is this not more than generous?


I’m sorry, are you blaming me?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Who said anything about mental health issues? Please do not try to hijack the post. Nothing was ever said about mental health. And the fact that you frame your argument for people in their 30's and 40's is telling.
> I already owned 5 businesses by the age of 35. I had over 100 people on payroll by the age of 40. Three of the businesses I have since sold for a profit.
> 
> noun: *mentality*; plural noun: *mentalities*
> ...


I'm referring to the people who get mental health issues as a result of their financial stressors, because that's what I have the most contact with. I'm avoiding referring to the people that had already-existent mental health issues. And I was referring to the mentalities, based on the struggling people whom I've come in contact with, what the mentality is that caused each. 

As you pointed out, you were discussing generational mentalities. So you're individual finances may differ from the general mentality. If we're talking about individuals; my fiancee and I both make okay money, I have enough stored for about half a year if I needed to, and she has enough stored for over a year for us to get by if needed. I do not live above my means, and the only debt I have is remaining student loans that's almost fully paid off. But I didn't mention that because my own situation is unrelated to the generation as a whole.

I referred to people over 40 and under 30, because that is where the difference was.

I fail to see how responding to your post about mentaliites, in a thread that had nothing to do about mentalities before your post, is _me _hijacking a thread.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 12, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> I'm referring to the people who get mental health issues as a result of their financial stressors, because that's what I have the most contact with. I'm avoiding referring to the people that had already-existent mental health issues. And I was referring to the mentalities, based on the struggling people whom I've come in contact with, what the mentality is that caused each.
> 
> As you pointed out, you were discussing generational mentalities. So you're individual finances may differ from the general mentality. If we're talking about individuals; my fiancee and I both make okay money, I have enough stored for about half a year if I needed to, and she has enough stored for over a year for us to get by if needed. I do not live above my means, and the only debt I have is remaining student loans that's almost fully paid off. But I didn't mention that because my own situation is unrelated to the generation as a whole.
> 
> ...


Because you specifically said '_mental health_ ' which has it own set of connotations.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 12, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m sorry, are you blaming me?


Well, yes if you did not properly prepare.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Because you specifically said '_mental health_ ' which has it own set of connotations.


I said mental health due to financial stress. Not mental health on it's own. If you assign connotations to that, that's on you.


----------



## Buka (Mar 12, 2020)

Chill y'all.


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 12, 2020)

A lot of hard working people live pay-check to pay-check. I am happy that I am not one of them, but that doesn't change things for people who do.

In the US, not everyone has or can afford health insurance. Again, I'm fortunate, but it would be wrong for me to dismiss the reality of or blame people who are doing their best.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Well, yes if you did not properly prepare.


Wow.  And how much, exactly, do you know about how I prepared and how I lived my life for the last couple decades?  How much?  Care to share?


----------



## skribs (Mar 12, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> A lot of hard working people live pay-check to pay-check. I am happy that I am not one of them, but that doesn't change things for people who do.
> 
> In the US, not everyone has or can afford health insurance. Again, I'm fortunate, but it would be wrong for me to dismiss the reality of or blame people who are doing their best.



Even if you have the insurance, it doesn't mean you can afford your deductible, or that the insurance company will authorize any procedures (and whatever they don't authorize you have to pay out of pocket).


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> For once you have over-estimated me.



Which part(s) of those instructions are beyond you?


----------



## ShortBridge (Mar 12, 2020)

What if squirrels start social distancing themselves from our yards?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 12, 2020)

Do you stop going to grocery store and ask grocery store (such as HEB) to deliver food at your front door?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 12, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> What if squirrels start social distancing themselves from our yards?


Find raccoons. Or birds if you're good with a bow/gun


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 12, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> What if squirrels start social distancing themselves from our yards?



then the chipmunks move in and take over...chipmunks just have no respect for a quarantine


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 12, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you stop going to grocery store and ask grocery store (such as HEB) to deliver food at your front door?




Having your food delivered by a supermarket here is quite common, saves a lot of bother.

The Chief Scientific Officer and the Chief Medical Officer here say that a lot of people *will *get the virus and they will be off work for a few days and be perfectly fine, what's more important they will be immunised. The priority here is the old people who have underlying medical issues, here they are working to a plan, the next stage has been implemented. While not downplaying the severity they are also saying that while some of us will succumb, the majority ie just about most of us will survive quite nicely and not get it again if it should re-occur. People with fever or cough told to self-isolate


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> Even if you have the insurance, it doesn't mean you can afford your deductible, or that the insurance company will authorize any procedures (and whatever they don't authorize you have to pay out of pocket).


The president met with the CEOs of the big insurance companies recently.  Apparently the insurance folks have agreed to waive copays and such for Covid-19 testing and (perhaps?) treatments.  They also agreed to NO SURPRISE BILLINGS.  

The fact that they needed to specifically raise that second issue and get them to agree on that point is very telling on the extent of how utterly f**ked up our medical insurance system is.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 12, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> how utterly f**ked up our medical insurance system is.


I think US hasn't start major testing may be because the US medical insurance system here.

There is only 1 death in Taiwan. I just can't believe that US can't do as good as Taiwan does.

*Taiwan reports first death from coronavirus*

Shortly after the team returned, Taiwan began requiring hospitals to test for and report cases. That helped the government identify those infected, trace their contacts and isolate everyone involved, preventing the virus from spreading to the community.

All this happened long before Taiwan confirmed its first case Jan. 21 and the rest of the world became alarmed.

Taiwan also took tough action early. On *Jan. 26*, five days after it confirmed its first case, Taiwan banned arrivals from Wuhan, earlier than any other country.

Not long after, it did the same for flights from all but a handful of Chinese cities, and only Taiwanese people were allowed to fly in.

After securing its borders, Taiwan used technology to fight the virus. Temperature monitors were already set up at airports after the 2003 SARS outbreak to detect anyone with a fever, a symptom of coronavirus.

Passengers can also scan a QR code and report their travel history and health symptoms online. That data is then given directly to Taiwan’s CDC.

One man who didn’t tell the authorities he had symptoms after he returned from Wuhan and went to a dance club the next day was fined $10,000.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 12, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> What if squirrels start social distancing themselves from our yards?



I live in Colorado. I was thinking more along the lines of deer and elk...



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you stop going to grocery store and ask grocery store (such as HEB) to deliver food at your front door?



Sure. It's a good idea. And there are already things in place (like GrubHub) to do it. Order your groceries online and they show up at your door.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 12, 2020)

North Korea seems to have an interesting way of dealing with the crisis.
North Korea's first confirmed Coronavirus COVID 19 patient shot dead: report


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I think US hasn't start major testing may be because the US medical insurance system here.
> .


It may be part of the issue, but it is clear the whole situation has been mishandled from the very beginning.

Personally though, I’ve had enough of this private sector, for-profit medical insurance system.  That entire industry ought to go extinct.  Time for those folks to get honest jobs.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 12, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I think US hasn't start major testing may be because the US medical insurance system here.
> 
> There is only 1 death in Taiwan. I just can't believe that US can't do as good as Taiwan does.
> 
> ...


There has been and currently is a huge amount of testing going on in the US. CDC and HHS among others. And just about all of the pharmaceutical companies are racing for a vaccine. Everyone wants to be the hero. 

Trump is helping the pharmaceutical companies by suspending some things that slow down the process. The CDC and HHS have been very good about getting their findings to the pharmaceutical companies, assisting with research, and coordinating companies to work together.

No one is sitting around and waiting. No one is staying away from it because of money. They’ll recoup their money and will get ethical favors for their work. The first dosages will most likely be sold to the government. Once things are somewhat under control, they’ll go through the usual channels.

Biotech pharmaceutical companies have the best chance for a quick treatment/vaccine IMO. Watch the video in this link:

New York biotech company working to make antibody treatment for the coronavirus


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 12, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> It may be part of the issue, but it is clear the whole situation has been mishandled from the very beginning.
> 
> Personally though, I’ve had enough of this private sector, for-profit medical insurance system.  That entire industry ought to go extinct.  Time for those folks to get honest jobs.


No one can screw someone up like the government can.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> No one can screw someone up like the government can.


Yup.  It’s right up there with unrestrained capitalism.

I’m ready to give something else a try.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 12, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> After close to twenty years in our jobs





Flying Crane said:


> Eventually the non-retirement savings/severance pay ran out and our time living in the San Francisco area (most expensive in the nation) was up.





Flying Crane said:


> Wow. And how much, exactly, do you know about how I prepared and how I lived my life for the last couple decades? How much? Care to share?



Tons of inference in these sentences. I do not need to know the details of you life to figure this out. 
You worked for 20 years in an area you knew was very expensive yet you did not prepare for the inevitable. And now you are railing about how unfair public healthcare is? Hilarious. 
You need to be really careful about thinking your life has been worse than others.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 12, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Yup.  It’s right up there with unrestrained capitalism.
> 
> I’m ready to give something else a try.


I’ll keep what we have over what Canada has.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 12, 2020)

Reading about the Canadian system, basically you pay over $10,000 a year for health care whether you go to the doctor or not. That is all in the form of taxes 

21 Canadian Medicare Pros and Cons


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 12, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> I’m trying quarantine my mother. And I’m not going to visit her, regardless of if I’m symptomatic or not. She had a kidney transplant a few years ago and is on immunosuppressants.


Yeah, I'm struggling with whether to sneak a quick visit to my mom (had a liver xplant last year) before there's more threat in the area, or just stay away to be extra safe. Probably the latter.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> Even if you have the insurance, it doesn't mean you can afford your deductible, or that the insurance company will authorize any procedures (and whatever they don't authorize you have to pay out of pocket).


Agreed. I'm still paying off the foot surgery I had early last year. Deemed "elective", even though there were bone fragments floating aroujnd just chewing up the joint.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 12, 2020)

My next set of client training sessions was cancelled (technically postponed) today due to covid-19. I expect more of the same in the near future.


----------



## geezer (Mar 12, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Reading about the Canadian system, basically you pay over $10,000 a year for health care whether you go to the doctor or not. That is all in the form of taxes.  21 Canadian Medicare Pros and Cons



If that article is accurate, that was the payment *per household. 
*
I'm a public high school teacher here in the States, and with my employer's policy, I pay a heck of a lot more than that to cover my household on an 80%-20% policy, and then there's co-pays, and all the stuff that isn't covered. Gotta tell you, the Canadian system sounds really cheap by comparison!


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 12, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> North Korea seems to have an interesting way of dealing with the crisis.
> North Korea's first confirmed Coronavirus COVID 19 patient shot dead: report


I mean... I guess we'd do the same with zombies....


----------



## skribs (Mar 12, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Which part(s) of those instructions are beyond you?



Understanding them in my head?  None of them.
Making my hands do them correctly?  Most of them.

Let me put it this way.  I bought a S&W M&P 9 a while back, knowing I hated the trigger.  I had a drop-in trigger replacement ordered before I even unboxed the gun.  I was told "you work in IT, you can put a computer together.  It's basically the same thing."

Well, what ended up happening is I put a hole in the trigger and broke the safety return spring.  So I ended up having to take it to a gunsmith anyway.  But instead of him simply installing the trigger kit, he also had to repair it first.

I'm not great at cooking meat the right amount.  I always get it raw or overdone.  I know my limits in the kitchen.

@Kung Fu Wang (and still @Dirty Dog )I'm not worried about going into the store myself.  I'm worried if the stores close and the services aren't available.  If that happens, not even GrubHub would work.  I'll go into the stores, I'll just try and buy stuff to bring home instead of the bare minimum like I do now.



gpseymour said:


> Agreed. I'm still paying off the foot surgery I had early last year. Deemed "elective", even though there were bone fragments floating aroujnd just chewing up the joint.



I want to clarify that I liked this to show my sympathy and support.  Not that I like that you're in that situation.



gpseymour said:


> My next set of client training sessions was cancelled (technically postponed) today due to covid-19. I expect more of the same in the near future.



I'm wondering if I should call my guitar instructor and ask him to switch to Skype lessons instead of in-person lessons.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Tons of inference in these sentences. I do not need to know the details of you life to figure this out.
> You worked for 20 years in an area you knew was very expensive yet you did not prepare for the inevitable. And now you are railing about how unfair public healthcare is? Hilarious.
> You need to be really careful about thinking your life has been worse than others.


Thank you for showing your true character.  I’ve suspected it for a long time.  Now there is no doubt.  Good day to you.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 12, 2020)

*REMINDER TO ALL MEMBERS:*

Keep the politics out of the discussion. Also, keep the personal attacks out of the discussion.

Any more shenanigans, and the thread will be locked and warnings/points may be issued.

_________
*Gerry Seymour*
MartialTalk Moderator
@gpseymour


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Reading about the Canadian system, basically you pay over $10,000 a year for health care whether you go to the doctor or not. That is all in the form of taxes
> 
> 21 Canadian Medicare Pros and Cons


I don’t know the details of the Canadian system.  I do know that I worked closely with a Canadian for many years.  She always felt their system made more sense than ours.  At any rate, nobody says it needs to be modeled on a particular system.  But we can definitely do better than we do.  What we have is sh*t.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 13, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Reading about the Canadian system, basically you pay over $10,000 a year for health care whether you go to the doctor or not. That is all in the form of taxes
> 
> 21 Canadian Medicare Pros and Cons


Over $10k a year. And then there’s the waiting list for diagnostic tests and treatment. Possibly tear your meniscus, and you’re waiting more than a year for your MRI. Then they’ll operate on it when they have the time, which is another year or more. Working in college athletics, I saw plenty of Canadians who had that same story. And worse. 

It’s so bad in that regard that a ton of people with money buy private insurance. And that’s on top of what they pay for their “free” insurance. 

Our system isn’t perfect. Not even close. But that’s definitely not the answer anyone’s looking for.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2020)

geezer said:


> If that article is accurate, that was the payment *per household.
> *
> I'm a public high school teacher here in the States, and with my employer's policy, I pay a heck of a lot more than that to cover my household on an 80%-20% policy, and then there's co-pays, and all the stuff that isn't covered. Gotta tell you, the Canadian system sounds really cheap by comparison!



Not for or against, just pointing out it is not exactly free, and posting the article to educate, not judge


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2020)

I work with politicians, I live with a doctor and I am related to a few more

The Coronavirus, if you listen to politicians, who are the most vocal, with 'NO' medical training






If you listen to doctors with copious amounts of medical training






I'm going with the MDs


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 13, 2020)

The Aus federal government just made an announcement today, they're banning gatherings of more than 500 people as a precautionary measure. Wowza... that's gonna impact alot... concerts, sporting events... the parties I throw...


----------



## jobo (Mar 13, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> The Aus federal government just made an announcement today, they're banning gatherings of more than 500 people as a precautionary measure. Wowza... that's gonna impact alot... concerts, sporting events... the parties I throw...


theres a tendency for those in authority, when faced with a problem to '' do something'' anything irrespective of it its likely to have a positive effect or not.

clearly your no more at risk an event that has 501 attendees than one with 401 participants. and no less at risk than if there is 50.000

if our 501 people instead assemble elsewhere in groups of say 10, then there was no befit at all. if where they assemble is indoors then they are far more at risk than watching F1 on the streets of Melbourne

what they need to do is ban family visits , sex and BBQs, but that though the most effective will be a) very unpopular and b) impossible to enforce so they are doing what is easy

the UK governments response, despise coming under significant pressure from the media, to make grand gestures, is refreshingly honest and pragmatic

there is nothing at all that can be done to stop this, NOTHING, all they can do is slow it down, so it peaks in say three months.

that gives the health service time to ramp up, gets rid of the seasonal flu issue to free up resources and most importantly gets us into the warm weather, fresh air and open windows will stop the spread significantly

there also clear that there will be a cost in lives, but the better prepared the health services are the lower this will be, theres a stark radiance between, the death toll in Italy which is close to 7% and the UK rate which is closer to 1% thats due in part at least that the health services in Italy are an underfunded chaos and also that the grand measures taken in Italy are having the effect of speeding up the spread


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 13, 2020)

jobo said:


> theres a tendency for those in authority, when faced with a problem to '' do something'' anything irrespective of it its likely to have a positive effect or not.
> 
> clearly your no more at risk an event that has 501 attendees than one with 401 participants. and no less at risk than if there is 50.000
> 
> ...


Yeah I know, I guess it is a case of doing someone that looks like it could help... who knows. But that's going to seriously impact some big events. What about work buildings that hold more than 500 people? What proximity do the people have to be in?

It is an interesting thought though... letting 'worst case scenario' dictate how life is to be led... I mean I understand how rapidly it can spread, but to approach life from that perspective would be crippling if you applied it to everything you do.... you wouldn't even cross the road! Just a thought


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2020)

jobo said:


> theres a tendency for those in authority, when faced with a problem to '' do something'' anything irrespective of it its likely to have a positive effect or not.




There's also the thing that people demand the government do something and be seen doing something preferably dramatic. with so many internet 'experts' no government is going to be right whatever they do, then of course it's all politicalised. In the light of recent political events here where it turned out there was so many lies, obfuscation politicking and campaigning it's not surprising people don't know who or what to believe. I've seen a lot of comparing us to other countries with people saying 'look they're doing this why aren't we', which is ridiculous given different demographics, different health systems and at different states of infection and spread.


----------



## jobo (Mar 13, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> There's also the thing that people demand the government do something and be seen doing something preferably dramatic. with so many internet 'experts' no government is going to be right whatever they do, then of course it's all politicalised. In the light of recent political events here where it turned out there was so many lies, obfuscation politicking and campaigning it's not surprising people don't know who or what to believe. I've seen a lot of comparing us to other countries with people saying 'look they're doing this why aren't we', which is ridiculous given different demographics, different health systems and at different states of infection and spread.


im not sure its the PEOPLE, rather the media, if people are panicking its because of grossly irresponsible reporting round her the general attitude is its no worse than the flu and ive seen no visible signs of panic, nothing no face masks no panic buying, the pubs are full, the busses are packed, the people of salford are a hardy and pragmatic breed

hell i bought a 6 pack of loo rolls yesterday from an immense pile of loo rolls, if they ARE stock pilling its fags and gin


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 13, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Thank you for showing your true character.  I’ve suspected it for a long time.  Now there is no doubt.  Good day to you.


@Flying Crane , I owe you a sincere apology. I had a heavy day yesterday and was in quite a bit of pain last night. Frankly, I took it out on you. I am sorry for this. 
I hope you can accept my apology.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2020)

Just remember... if you can keep your head when all around are losing theirs, you obviously don't understand the situation!!

apologies to Rudyard Kipling.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 13, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> I’ll keep what we have over what Canada has.


Man oh man do I agree.
Every person needs to try to go to a hospital/medical facility in Canada just once to understand how messed up things are. 
I had it happen and it was one of the craziest things I have ever went through. 
In lieu of the whole story: because I did not have the official Canadian 'medical credit card' they did not know how to process me, even though they were told repeatedly I would pay with cash if necessary. Tried my credit card and a credit card by the plant GM who lived in Mississauga. Nothing worked. I had lost the end of my right thumb in a machine malfunction. I sat in the ER waiting room until I passed out from blood loss and probably shock (even though I was mostly pissed off). 
Their system is so screwed up I could not even receive triage to stem the blood loss. 
Hard pass on socialism.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Hard pass on socialism.




Actually it's not socialism. One bad experience , which frankly you can have absolutely anywhere in the world, doesn't mean a countries systems is wrong or doesn't work. There is a top private hospital here in the UK, very expensive, very exclusive where several people reported bad experiences. I have many Canadian friends who say their system works, it's not perfect of course no ones is, but it works and people don't die because they can't afford treatment.
Blaming 'socialism' for the fact that *one* hospital is rubbish and you not being Canadian so not experienced in their medical health care system is extreme. You need to research properly the healthcare system in a non partisan way rather than base it on one visit to one hospital in one place. Much of what is written about other countries healthcare systems is written by people who either have an axe to grind ie to prove it's the best or the worst. 
Ranked in order of quality the UK is 18th, Canada 30th and the USA 38th.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/best-healthcare-in-the-world/


----------



## jobo (Mar 13, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Man oh man do I agree.
> Every person needs to try to go to a hospital/medical facility in Canada just once to understand how messed up things are.
> I had it happen and it was one of the craziest things I have ever went through.
> In lieu of the whole story: because I did not have the official Canadian 'medical credit card' they did not know how to process me, even though they were told repeatedly I would pay with cash if necessary. Tried my credit card and a credit card by the plant GM who lived in Mississauga. Nothing worked. I had lost the end of my right thumb in a machine malfunction. I sat in the ER waiting room until I passed out from blood loss and probably shock (even though I was mostly pissed off).
> ...





dvcochran said:


> Man oh man do I agree.
> Every person needs to try to go to a hospital/medical facility in Canada just once to understand how messed up things are.
> I had it happen and it was one of the craziest things I have ever went through.
> In lieu of the whole story: because I did not have the official Canadian 'medical credit card' they did not know how to process me, even though they were told repeatedly I would pay with cash if necessary. Tried my credit card and a credit card by the plant GM who lived in Mississauga. Nothing worked. I had lost the end of my right thumb in a machine malfunction. I sat in the ER waiting room until I passed out from blood loss and probably shock (even though I was mostly pissed off).
> ...


the general ethos of social health care, is that the better off pay more to allow the treatment of the less well off an an equal basis

this equality is the key feature

the nature of this equality is if you turn up offering to pay cash to get to the front of the queue , then your told to wait your turn, your no more entitled to not bleed to death or retain all your digits than anyone else of a lesser income, particularly as the other people in the queue had in fact contribute to the system (and would understandably get quite cross if being a rich american was given more of a life value than theirs), or at least had the foresight to turn up with the correct documentation, i wouldn't dream of going abroad let alone america with out the correct docs

as you didnt infact bleed to death one assumes at some point you did  reach the front of the queue ?


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 13, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not for or against, just pointing out it is not exactly free, and posting the article to educate, not judge


Of course it is not free, I don’t think anyone was claiming it is.  Everything needs to get paid for somehow.  But there are better ways to spread the costs and make access more available for everyone.

For one thing, making health insurance into a benefit tied to employment is ridiculously stupid.  When you become unemployed and lose that benefit along with your paycheck, you become much more vulnerable.  You cannot pay insurance premiums or doctor fees without your paycheck.  We need to separate healthcare from employment and make it readily available for everyone, including those who are unemployed and those who work low-wage and/or part-time jobs that often do not offer benefits.

Speaking of premiums, how is that not simply another word for “tax”?  Well, there are a couple of ways.  First, premiums go to insurance companies who have no intention of spending that money on your healthcare.  They have an incentive to spend as little as possible in order to maximize corporate profits on top of big executive salaries and other payroll and operating costs.

A government run program funded through taxes would of course have payroll and operating costs, but would otherwise not have the corporate profits as a priority.  The purpose of those taxes is much more to spend on your (and everyone else’s) actual healthcare.  So the money gets used for what it is intended.  If the entire population is part of that program, the overall tax per person to fund it ought to be reduced.  I would much rather spend my money on such a tax than on insurance premiums to a private insurance provider.  And in this way, if you become unemployed for a time, you still get medical access.  When you earn money, you pay the tax.  When you are unemployed, you don’t, but you can still see your doctor because as a nation, we all take care of each other.

Some things are best provided by the government because they require wide use by the general population, and they are large and expensive endeavors that individuals are unable to pay for by themselves.  Examples are the police and fire departments, the military, roads and highways, libraries, the postal service.  I put medical into that category as well.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course it is not free, I don’t think anyone was claiming it is.  Everything needs to get paid for somehow.  But there are better ways to spread the costs and make access more available for everyone.
> 
> For one thing, making health insurance into a benefit tied to employment is ridiculously stupid.  When you become unemployed and lose that benefit along with your paycheck, you become much more vulnerable.  You cannot pay insurance premiums or doctor fees without your paycheck.  We need to separate healthcare from employment and make it readily available for everyone, including those who are unemployed and those who work low-wage and/or part-time jobs that often do not offer benefits.
> 
> ...



I have dealt with insurance companies and I do realize they are in the business of making money, not helping those in their system, and I do not disagree your post, but read the linked article, it is not all sunshine and rainbows, it does have its drawbacks as well as its advantages, it is just a matter of what is more important to the individual.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 13, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Reading about the Canadian system, basically you pay over $10,000 a year for health care whether you go to the doctor or not. That is all in the form of taxes



Just for reference, last year I paid a bit over $40,000 in medical expenses. That is on _*top*_ of insurance premiums. That figure includes co-pays, deductibles, and all the various bits and pieces of treatment that the insurance company has decided they won't pay for. My current chemo regimen costs about $12,000 per month just for the drugs, and while insurance covers most of it, there is always a significant outlay on my part. There is a particular PET scan that provides the best imaging for gastric Neuro Endocrine Tumors that I need yearly. It's FDA approved, and accepted as the best way to imagine this cancer. But my insurance (and most, other than Medicare) say that _*they*_ consider it experimental and won't pay for it. It costs about $3500. The (less useful) imaging the insurance will pay for costs about $1000. I'd love to pay only $10K per year.
My oncologists have been offering to put through disability paperwork for 10 years. Were I to take that and go on Medicare, my out of pocket would drop to zero. But my job matters to me, and I think it matters to our community as well. So because I insist on being a productive citizen, I spend a freaking fortune on uncovered medical bills.
In the US, fully 2/3 of all personal bankruptcies are linked to medical bills. The US is the only 1st World nation in which people routinely go bankrupt paying for needed medical care.
Yes, we can do better. We could hardly do worse.
However, we're now getting into political discussion, so I'm out of this conversation.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2020)

Do you go to your MA class? How do you keep that 2 meters distance away from people?


----------



## geezer (Mar 13, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Man oh man do I agree.
> Every person needs to try to go to a hospital/medical facility in Canada just once to understand how messed up things are..



I haven't been to Canada in about 20 years. It's a long way from Arizona, ya know. But the last time I was there, we were visiting some friends in Toronto and my wife cut her hand bad. So she went to whatever the Canadian equivalent of an "urgent care clinic" is called. She was examined and treated in a reasonable amount of time and, even though she told them she was a US citizen, they charged her _...nothing. _

Honestly, she said the experience was equal to or better than she would have expected at the urgent care center we used at home, and even with pretty expensive insurance, that service comes with a hefty co-pay.

Now maybe her good experience on that one occasion, isn't the norm. Regardless, it saved our vacation. Yay Canada!


----------



## jobo (Mar 13, 2020)

just read a story on the ever cheerful bbc, that the consequences in America could out do those in Europe,  because of non insured/ under  insured people not being tested let alone treated if they are the % who get it bad and the lack of sick pay for much the same population means they either work or starve , no matter if they spread it, all of a sudden social health care looks like good value?


----------



## geezer (Mar 13, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you go to your MA class? How do you keep that 2 meters distance away from people?



Long arns?


----------



## geezer (Mar 13, 2020)

jobo said:


> just read a story on the ever cheerful bbc, that the consequences in America could out do those in Europe,  because of non insured/ under  insured people not being tested let alone treated if they are the % who get it bad and the lack of sick pay for much the same population means they either work or starve , no matter if they spread it, all of a sudden social health care looks like good value?



Oh be quiet, Jobo. Things are bad enough without you pointing out the obvious.


----------



## geezer (Mar 13, 2020)

My son is a student at Digipen in Seattle. He is also doing an internship at Tesla. In response to the outbreak, Digipen has gone to online classes, but he still has to show up to work at his internship. At least one person that he knows of in the same building has tested positive for Covid 19.

Another thought. Seattle has a huge homeless population. Will they be tested and provided with treatment? Seems kinda tough to pull off if they don't even have shelter.

And then, considering the news about Tom Hanks testing positive, maybe it's time to do a romantic movie remake, this time relevantly titled: _Homeless in Seattle: Love is Contagious._


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 13, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have dealt with insurance companies and I do realize they are in the business of making money, not helping those in their system, and I do not disagree your post, but read the linked article, it is not all sunshine and rainbows, it does have its drawbacks as well as its advantages, it is just a matter of what is more important to the individual.


And we can figure out a better way.


----------



## jobo (Mar 13, 2020)

geezer said:


> My son is a student at Digipen in Seattle. He is also doing an internship at Tesla. In response to the outbreak, Digipen has gone to online classes, but he still has to show up to work at his internship. At least one person that he knows of in the same building has tested positive for Covid 19.
> 
> Another thought. Seattle has a huge homeless population. Will they be tested and provided with treatment? Seems kinda tough to pull off if they don't even have shelter.
> 
> And then, considering the news about Tom Hanks testing positive, maybe it's time to do a romantic movie remake, this time relevantly titled: _Homeless in Seattle: Love is Contagious._


just read on the bbc, that trump has announced a 50 blillion relief fund,  that should buy them a few tents,


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2020)

Before we all get slapped on the wrist for being political I want to add that this issue is political and we can't avoid it. Usually who is in charge of a country or how they run their health services is just something we talk about in conversation BUT now how _everyone_ deals with the healthcare in their country is of vital interest to us all. The virus has no borders, it goes from country to country as easily as we do now so how the US deals with healthcare is of importance, how Europe does is important. If one country has people who cannot afford to go to a doctor or a hospital (or can't afford to self isolate) it helps spread the virus among the population who in turn spread it further which obviously ( of course) is why it's now a pandemic.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Just for reference, last year I paid a bit over $40,000 in medical expenses. That is on _*top*_ of insurance premiums. That figure includes co-pays, deductibles, and all the various bits and pieces of treatment that the insurance company has decided they won't pay for. My current chemo regimen costs about $12,000 per month just for the drugs, and while insurance covers most of it, there is always a significant outlay on my part. There is a particular PET scan that provides the best imaging for gastric Neuro Endocrine Tumors that I need yearly. It's FDA approved, and accepted as the best way to imagine this cancer. But my insurance (and most, other than Medicare) say that _*they*_ consider it experimental and won't pay for it. It costs about $3500. The (less useful) imaging the insurance will pay for costs about $1000. I'd love to pay only $10K per year.
> My oncologists have been offering to put through disability paperwork for 10 years. Were I to take that and go on Medicare, my out of pocket would drop to zero. But my job matters to me, and I think it matters to our community as well. So because I insist on being a productive citizen, I spend a freaking fortune on uncovered medical bills.
> In the US, fully 2/3 of all personal bankruptcies are linked to medical bills. The US is the only 1st World nation in which people routinely go bankrupt paying for needed medical care.
> Yes, we can do better. We could hardly do worse.
> However, we're now getting into political discussion, so I'm out of this conversation.



May wanted to look at post #313 before you posted but...so be it

Yes I know, I am sorry I worded it the way I did, and I am starting to remember why I stopped posting....I never intended to say it was expensive, I never intended to say our system was better or worse. I was "SIMPLY" pointing out it is not free as many believe and it has it draw backs. It is not perfect and neither is ours. And yes, we all have medical expenses that would be really hard to handle if not nye impossible without insurance due to cost, Heck the thousands I would have had to pay out in dental cost alone last year wold have drained me if it were not for my insurance. I do not need a list from anyone about how much they spent or how much it cost, but thanks for the info, but I grew up here, been dealing with it for years and even spent some time in my early 30s unemployed trying to pay for my own insurance out of pocket. And if it is political it is because you made it so. I posted a link with pros and cons that apparently you ignored and jumped on the price. Nothing in my original post was an attack on the Canadian system or a defense of ours.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 13, 2020)

geezer said:


> I haven't been to Canada in about 20 years. It's a long way from Arizona, ya know. But the last time I was there, we were visiting some friends in Toronto and my wife cut her hand bad. So she went to whatever the Canadian equivalent of an "urgent care clinic" is called. She was examined and treated in a reasonable amount of time and, even though she told them she was a US citizen, they charged her _...nothing. _
> 
> Honestly, she said the experience was equal to or better than she would have expected at the urgent care center we used at home, and even with pretty expensive insurance, that service comes with a hefty co-pay.
> 
> Now maybe her good experience on that one occasion, isn't the norm. Regardless, it saved our vacation. Yay Canada!


I am glad you had a better experience. 

I do remember the GM at the facility I was working at saying the hold up on the front end was unusual.

A little more of the story; Right before I passed out I remember this gentleman wearing a white coat and having a very strong British accent came in to the waiting area. He was very loud and went from person to person speaking, never really stopping. When I got to a room, this same man came in, twice, before a doctor ever came in to see me. He just rambled, mostly incoherently, and then moseyed back out. When the doctor came in this is exactly what he said: Mr. Cochran I understand you are from the United States. We can either cut your finger off at the lower joint or bandage it up. Naturally I said bandage it up.
The injury occurred on an automated grinding machine and essentially ground the end of my thumb off to the first knuckle. It was very, very dirty. The doctor told me it would have to be thoroughly cleaned which made sense. A nurse came in and said 'hold on'. A said aren't you going to numb it up first? She said, nope. So imagine trying to set still while a nurse used betadine sponges to clean the end of your missing thumb. After several minutes of her scrubbing and me squirming the doctor came in and said it was not clean enough. I was rather vocal but sat thorough another scrubbing.
The doctor came in, never said a word, put a good wrap on the wound and walked out. Never said a word.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 13, 2020)

Several school districts in my area have closed. More will follow suit sooner than later, like within the next 24 hours. Closed for a minimum of next week. I’m quite sure it’ll go longer than that.

According to my wife who teaches at a public school, there was a teleconference with superintendents from around the area and the decision was a group decision. My daughters’ school hasn’t announced anything yet, but my wife’s has. I can foresee my daughters’ school staying open with literally every district that borders it closing. If not for anything else, it’ll close due to public pressure. 

But who’s supposed to watch the kids? Now you’re going to lose a big part of the workforce because someone needs to watch the kids. Luckily my wife’s a teacher and is home virtually whenever my kids are.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 13, 2020)

jobo said:


> just read a story on the ever cheerful bbc, that the consequences in America could out do those in Europe,  because of non insured/ under  insured people not being tested let alone treated if they are the % who get it bad and the lack of sick pay for much the same population means they either work or starve , no matter if they spread it, all of a sudden social health care looks like good value?


That is hugely over stated media hype. Insurance availability is not nearly as bad as it is made out to be. More the spin doctors hard at work. It doesn't take a genius to set down and figure out how much more they would pay in added taxes for social healthcare. 
We do have a Lot of people wanting something for nothing however. 
As far as the quality of healthcare, I will still take the US healthcare over anywhere else.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 13, 2020)

All nonessential staff at my work has been ordered to work from home. We are a drug manufacturer, and the priority is to protect and isolate as much as possible the people who are in direct contact with the drugs and those who closest support them. Anyone who feels sick in any way is required to report it to powers that be and stay home until further notice. Anyone who’s out due to illness will be paid fully without being charged any sick time. 

I’m on the manufacturing floor and therefore essential. Great thing is there’s plenty of overtime to be had (we’re all hourly).


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 13, 2020)

My daughters’ school has officially closed. And their basketball season has been suspended for 3 weeks  I bet it’ll end up being canceled.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 13, 2020)

jobo said:


> the general ethos of social health care, is that the better off pay more to allow the treatment of the less well off an an equal basis
> 
> this equality is the key feature
> 
> ...


I was able to walk right up to the counter. No waiting there. Then everything ground to a halt because I did not have the health credit card.
I was addressed Only after I passed out in the floor. As I remember the ER was not full at all. I think it was more that the hospital was grossly understaffed. There was no 'queue' , I assume aside from whoever was already in a triage room. 

As far as the 'rich American' stab, why/how do you think anyone had a clue what my financial status was? It was not until After everything ground to a halt because I did not have the health credit card that we offered to pay cash. It wasn't like I stood in a line waiting for service. We were able to walk right up to the counter where we were told I would be seen right away. Then had to wait until I passed out. 
Your narrative is Way off.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 13, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Actually it's not socialism. One bad experience , which frankly you can have absolutely anywhere in the world, doesn't mean a countries systems is wrong or doesn't work. There is a top private hospital here in the UK, very expensive, very exclusive where several people reported bad experiences. I have many Canadian friends who say their system works, it's not perfect of course no ones is, but it works and people don't die because they can't afford treatment.
> Blaming 'socialism' for the fact that *one* hospital is rubbish and you not being Canadian so not experienced in their medical health care system is extreme. You need to research properly the healthcare system in a non partisan way rather than base it on one visit to one hospital in one place. Much of what is written about other countries healthcare systems is written by people who either have an axe to grind ie to prove it's the best or the worst.
> Ranked in order of quality the UK is 18th, Canada 30th and the USA 38th.
> https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/best-healthcare-in-the-world/


I can appreciate that. 
To be fair, my opinions about socialism reach far past one visit to a Canadian hospital.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 13, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Several school districts in my area have closed. More will follow suit sooner than later, like within the next 24 hours. Closed for a minimum of next week. I’m quite sure it’ll go longer than that.
> 
> According to my wife who teaches at a public school, there was a teleconference with superintendents from around the area and the decision was a group decision. My daughters’ school hasn’t announced anything yet, but my wife’s has. I can foresee my daughters’ school staying open with literally every district that borders it closing. If not for anything else, it’ll close due to public pressure.
> 
> But who’s supposed to watch the kids? Now you’re going to lose a big part of the workforce because someone needs to watch the kids. Luckily my wife’s a teacher and is home virtually whenever my kids are.


I just got the text message, my son’s school is closing for at least three weeks.  Well, with my wife suddenly out of work, I guess we can deal with it.  Of course paying the bills is still an unknown.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 13, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> All nonessential staff at my work has been ordered to work from home. We are a drug manufacturer, and the priority is to protect and isolate as much as possible the people who are in direct contact with the drugs and those who closest support them. Anyone who feels sick in any way is required to report it to powers that be and stay home until further notice. Anyone who’s out due to illness will be paid fully without being charged any sick time.
> 
> I’m on the manufacturing floor and therefore essential. Great thing is there’s plenty of overtime to be had (we’re all hourly).


That's cool. The hospital that I work at forced one of the nurses to go home yesterday for sneezing a bit, and she had to use her own sick time for it.


----------



## Buka (Mar 13, 2020)

We are living in interesting times.


----------



## jobo (Mar 13, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> That is hugely over stated media hype. Insurance availability is not nearly as bad as it is made out to be. More the spin doctors hard at work. It doesn't take a genius to set down and figure out how much more they would pay in added taxes for social healthcare.
> We do have a Lot of people wanting something for nothing however.
> As far as the quality of healthcare, I will still take the US healthcare over anywhere else.


ive just googled it, over 70 million, have either no or inadequate insurance and that with out all the undocumented, so 100.000000 or so

so obviously not much of an issue at all


----------



## jobo (Mar 13, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I was able to walk right up to the counter. No waiting there. Then everything ground to a halt because I did not have the health credit card.
> I was addressed Only after I passed out in the floor. As I remember the ER was not full at all. I think it was more that the hospital was grossly understaffed. There was no 'queue' , I assume aside from whoever was already in a triage room.
> 
> As far as the 'rich American' stab, why/how do you think anyone had a clue what my financial status was? It was not until After everything ground to a halt because I did not have the health credit card that we offered to pay cash. It wasn't like I stood in a line waiting for service. We were able to walk right up to the counter where we were told I would be seen right away. Then had to wait until I passed out.
> Your narrative is Way off.


it cant have been understaffed or they would have been a big queue


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 13, 2020)

jobo said:


> it cant have been understaffed or they would have been a big queue


Correct me if I am wrong but I do not remember you being there.
Unless you were the incoherent British guy.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 13, 2020)

jobo said:


> ive just googled it, over 70 million, have either no or inadequate insurance and that with out all the undocumented, so 100.000000 or so
> 
> so obviously not much of an issue at all


You Googled it so it must be true.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 13, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> That's cool. The hospital that I work at forced one of the nurses to go home yesterday for sneezing a bit, and she had to use her own sick time for it.


The company I work for really takes great care of us. I can’t say enough good things about it. They’re not perfect, but they’re as close as I’ve ever worked for and don’t know anyone who gets better taken care of overall.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 13, 2020)

Is there a diarrhea pandemic that no one’s openly discussing going on alongside the Coronavirus pandemic?

If not, why the hell are people buying up all the toilet paper? Every damn store is sold out. After about 3 rolls, I’m going to have to either hold it until I get to work or steal it from a public bathroom like McDonald’s. F’ing animals!


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2020)

I've been asking folks all day; how you handling the "Pandemic Panic of 2020"


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Is there a diarrhea pandemic that no one’s openly discussing going on alongside the Coronavirus pandemic?
> 
> If not, why the hell are people buying up all the toilet paper? Every damn store is sold out. After about 3 rolls, I’m going to have to either hold it until I get to work or steal it from a public bathroom like McDonald’s. F’ing animals!



Toilet paper, paper towels, kleenex, rubbing alcohol, cotton balls, most cleaning products, bleach all gone. I was in a store today picking up a prescription and I was looking around.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 13, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah I know, I guess it is a case of doing someone that looks like it could help... who knows. But that's going to seriously impact some big events. What about work buildings that hold more than 500 people? What proximity do the people have to be in?
> 
> It is an interesting thought though... letting 'worst case scenario' dictate how life is to be led... I mean I understand how rapidly it can spread, but to approach life from that perspective would be crippling if you applied it to everything you do.... you wouldn't even cross the road! Just a thought


The "greater than 500" is just using some reasonable cutoff to make the decision easy, rather than a case-by-case decision - which would be more appropriate to each situation, but unreasonably difficult to implement. The idea is simply to reduce the mass transfer. If I give it to 3 relatives, that's one thing. They likely associate with some of the same folks I do, so there's a bit of self-limiting impact. If I pass it along to the 12 people nearest me at a concert, each pair (assuming couples and such) may have a drastically different social circle, spreading the contagion much faster across the population.

It's not a great measure, but it's a relatively easy one with some predictable results.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 13, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Is there a diarrhea pandemic that no one’s openly discussing going on alongside the Coronavirus pandemic?
> 
> If not, why the hell are people buying up all the toilet paper? Every damn store is sold out. After about 3 rolls, I’m going to have to either hold it until I get to work or steal it from a public bathroom like McDonald’s. F’ing animals!


I stopped by a drug store this afternoon to pick up some travel supplies and see if they happened to have any small bottles of hand sanitizer (to keep one in my car when I'm driving for Lyft and can't wash). Hand sanitizer was entirely gone, as were all the various rubbing alcohols and anything remotely similar. And the toilet paper aisle looked like a damned war zone. Animals, indeed.


----------



## skribs (Mar 13, 2020)

Well, my Master has suspended some of our special classes for the next month and a half.  In part because I'm sick today.  I don't think it's COVID-19 at this point, maybe allergies or a cold.  If I get a fever I'll definitely call my doctor.

Our regular classes are still on, but our special classes are on break.  One of those is Hapkido, which is probably a good thing since Hapkido is basically aggressive handshakes.


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 14, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Is there a diarrhea pandemic that no one’s openly discussing going on alongside the Coronavirus pandemic?
> 
> If not, why the hell are people buying up all the toilet paper? Every damn store is sold out. After about 3 rolls, I’m going to have to either hold it until I get to work or steal it from a public bathroom like McDonald’s. F’ing animals!


Ahhh so u guys have been struck with the "toilet-paper fever" too... blame us Aussies for starting that odd trend XD


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 14, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> The "greater than 500" is just using some reasonable cutoff to make the decision easy, rather than a case-by-case decision - which would be more appropriate to each situation, but unreasonably difficult to implement. The idea is simply to reduce the mass transfer. If I give it to 3 relatives, that's one thing. They likely associate with some of the same folks I do, so there's a bit of self-limiting impact. If I pass it along to the 12 people nearest me at a concert, each pair (assuming couples and such) may have a drastically different social circle, spreading the contagion much faster across the population.
> 
> It's not a great measure, but it's a relatively easy one with some predictable results.



Yeah true, makes sense in that regard hey.. I just wonder how far this will be taken, AND if it is indeed a truly necessary measure yet. I don't know if it's something that spreads more rapidly than any other virus. Just keep hearing very mixed stuff about it in terms of numbers, percentages, rate of increase, whether it's nothing at all to worry about vs. it being at serious level etc..


----------



## skribs (Mar 14, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Is there a diarrhea pandemic that no one’s openly discussing going on alongside the Coronavirus pandemic?
> 
> If not, why the hell are people buying up all the toilet paper? Every damn store is sold out. After about 3 rolls, I’m going to have to either hold it until I get to work or steal it from a public bathroom like McDonald’s. F’ing animals!



I think people are just worried that the stores will close, and they'll be unable to get TP.


----------



## 333kenshin (Mar 14, 2020)

skribs said:


> Well, my Master has suspended some of our special classes for the next month and a half.  In part because I'm sick today.  I don't think it's COVID-19 at this point, maybe allergies or a cold.  If I get a fever I'll definitely call my doctor.
> 
> Our regular classes are still on, but our special classes are on break.  One of those is Hapkido, which is probably a good thing since Hapkido is basically aggressive handshakes.



Thank you for actually answering the original question ("what are you doing about...") which I find much more interesting and salient than comparing the shortcomings of various national medical systems (each system fails in some way, the question is how and whom).

My sensei cancelled an event last weekend but continues to hold regular classes. My gut says that in light of Friday's declaration of national emergency, followed by our local school district declaring closure, he should go a step further and shut down for a week or two. But he thinks not only would that gesture be empty, but in its own way irresponsible, giving the false impression that things are all better. I'm not sure I agree with that perspective, but not sure I can dismiss it outright either.

What do folks (especially those from the US) think on the matter of temporary closure?
Thanks!
-Dave


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 14, 2020)

jobo said:


> ive just googled it, over 70 million, have either no or inadequate insurance and that with out all the undocumented, so 100.000000 or so
> 
> so obviously not much of an issue at all


The number google provided me with was 27.5 million, not 70 million. Very big difference. Can you provide a source for your number?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 14, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> The "greater than 500" is just using some reasonable cutoff to make the decision easy, rather than a case-by-case decision - which would be more appropriate to each situation, but unreasonably difficult to implement. The idea is simply to reduce the mass transfer. If I give it to 3 relatives, that's one thing. They likely associate with some of the same folks I do, so there's a bit of self-limiting impact. If I pass it along to the 12 people nearest me at a concert, each pair (assuming couples and such) may have a drastically different social circle, spreading the contagion much faster across the population.
> 
> It's not a great measure, but it's a relatively easy one with some predictable results.


What I've yet to find is the population per square mile. so for instance here in NY most of the museums have shut down. But the hospitals remain open, and I guarantee you that they have a higher population density than the average museum.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 14, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Ahhh so u guys have been struck with the "toilet-paper fever" too... blame us Aussies for starting that odd trend XD


What caused you guys to start it? It's the oddest thing...


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 14, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah true, makes sense in that regard hey.. I just wonder how far this will be taken, AND if it is indeed a truly necessary measure yet. I don't know if it's something that spreads more rapidly than any other virus. Just keep hearing very mixed stuff about it in terms of numbers, percentages, rate of increase, whether it's nothing at all to worry about vs. it being at serious level etc..


So a direct answer for the rates in terms of contagiousness, COV-19, according to the sources I've been following, has a R0 of ~2.0-2.5. That means on average a person infected with COV-19 spreads it between 2 and 2.5 people. And this website gives a mortality rate of 3.6% (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30195-X/fulltext)
Obviously that's not a definitive thing, but it is still a pretty big concern.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2020)

333kenshin said:


> which I find much more interesting and salient than comparing the shortcomings of various national medical systems (each system fails in some way, the question is how and whom).





However those 'shortcomings' or not will impact on you far greater than merely closing down martial arts classes. They could decide whether you and your loved ones actually survive the pandemic, martial arts can be practised at home and when things get back to normal. One country's healthcare system also impacts on how fast or not the virus spreads inside the country and across borders.




kempodisciple said:


> What caused you guys to start it? It's the oddest thing...




The fear of missing out.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2020)

Here is a very good site where experts give their views without hysteria or electioneering, it was recommended by a friend of mine Dr. Rosi Sexton, who has a very sharp mind and intelligence as well as great fighting skills.
The site is a British scientific one.

COVID-19 | Science Media Centre

there's also a fact sheet.
Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) Factsheet | Science Media Centre


----------



## jobo (Mar 14, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> The number google provided me with was 27.5 million, not 70 million. Very big difference. Can you provide a source for your number?


PBS

PBS- Healthcare Crisis: The Uninsured

About 44 million people in this country have no health insurance, and another 38 million have inadequate health insurance. This means that nearly one-third of Americans face each day without the security of knowing that, if and when they need it, medical care is available to them and their families.


----------



## jobo (Mar 14, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but I do not remember you being there.
> Unless you were the incoherent British guy.


i dont need to be there, your testomony is enough to reach that conclusion.

the defintion of a queue is people ariving faster than they are leaving.

if as you clearly stated there was no queue, then people are leaving faster than they are arriving ( or at least at the same frequency) ergo then were not understaffed

or to dumb it down a bit so you understand, no where receiving member of the public, be that a bar, a shop or an emergency room, with out a queue is understaffed by definition


----------



## jobo (Mar 14, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> What I've yet to find is the population per square mile. so for instance here in NY most of the museums have shut down. But the hospitals remain open, and I guarantee you that they have a higher population density than the average museum.


 cant you see that closing hospitals might be a mite counter productive in reducing deaths ?


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 14, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> What caused you guys to start it? It's the oddest thing...


I think it stems from a "statement" released to the public saying... "best to stock up on essentials", and I think it went from there...


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 14, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> So a direct answer for the rates in terms of contagiousness, COV-19, according to the sources I've been following, has a R0 of ~2.0-2.5. That means on average a person infected with COV-19 spreads it between 2 and 2.5 people. And this website gives a mortality rate of 3.6% (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30195-X/fulltext)
> Obviously that's not a definitive thing, but it is still a pretty big concern.


Ahh okay yep, cheers for that


----------



## jobo (Mar 14, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I stopped by a drug store this afternoon to pick up some travel supplies and see if they happened to have any small bottles of hand sanitizer (to keep one in my car when I'm driving for Lyft and can't wash). Hand sanitizer was entirely gone, as were all the various rubbing alcohols and anything remotely similar. And the toilet paper aisle looked like a damned war zone. Animals, indeed.


 ive tracked down the toilet roll issue in the uk, my mother has it all

 what do they do with it ?i used about a roll a month perhaps two. cant remember when i last bough a six pack, some time last summer, im on my last roll, should get to May, these people need to consider their diet


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 14, 2020)

jobo said:


> i dont need to be there, your testomony is enough to reach that conclusion.
> 
> the defintion of a queue is people ariving faster than they are leaving.
> 
> ...


what??? None of what you said made any sense. 

I did not have to be there to figure that out. 

The village idiot understands the meaning of what a queue is. It has nothing to do with what I said.


----------



## jobo (Mar 14, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> what??? None of what you said made any sense.
> 
> I did not have to be there to figure that out.
> 
> The village idiot understands the meaning of what a queue is. It has nothing to do with what I said.


i knew it wouldnt make any sense to you, thats why i gave a dumber down version, obviously didn't dumb it down enough, ,  but im not the idiot whisperer so il leave you with it, perhaps if you have an adult to explain it to you


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 14, 2020)

jobo said:


> i knew it wouldnt make any sense to you, thats why i gave a dumber down version, obviously didn't dumb it down enough, ,  but im not the idiot whisperer so il leave you with it, perhaps if you have an adult to explain it to you


Yes, and I knew when you figured out you were totally wrong you would write a bunch of blather to try and weasel out of your self made mess as usual.


----------



## jobo (Mar 14, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, and I knew when you figured out you were totally wrong you would write a bunch of blather to try and weasel out of your self made mess as usual.


im just amused you were dumb enough to stick your thumb in a machine and then hold the entire Canadian health service responsible for loosing a  digit


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 14, 2020)

jobo said:


> im just amused you were dumb enough to stick your thumb in a machine and then hold the entire Canadian health service responsible for loosing a  digit


Again, I do not remember you being there. 
You are consistent however. You assume I 'stuck my thumb in a machine' when you have *absolutely no way of knowing* what happened. 
You are getting better, and better at showing just how stupid you really are however.


----------



## jobo (Mar 14, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Again, I do not remember you being there.
> You are consistent however. You assume I 'stuck my thumb in a machine' when you have *absolutely no way of knowing* what happened.
> You are getting better, and better at showing just how stupid you really are however.


 well you definitely turned up with out the required documentation when expecting health care in a foreign country, and them blame the health care for your delay in treatment, once that level of stupidity and entitlement is establish its a fair guess your daft enough to stick your thumb in the machine. i suppose your blaming the machine ?


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 14, 2020)

jobo said:


> well you definitely turned up with out the required documentation when expecting health care in a foreign country, and them blame the health care for your delay in treatment, once that level of stupidity and entitlement is establish its a fair guess your daft enough to stick your thumb in the machine. i suppose your blaming the machine ?


Again, you show you ignorance with exuberance. This was in the 90's. All you needed to cross into Canada from the US was you photo ID drivers license and. There was no mandate for any 'required documentation'. A stupid assertion.  

Paperwork issues aside, the point I was trying to make was how poor the service was once I was finally seen by a doctor. Obviously, you missed all that after I made the 'incoherent British accent' comment. Thin skinned much?

You really need to crawl out from under your rock and realize there is a great big world that lives very differently from the apparent pathetic existence you are living. You are VERY narrow minded.


----------



## jobo (Mar 14, 2020)

i ve just googled it, there is no reciprocal health care agreement between the US and Canada, this mostly , because the US wont have reciprocal health care agreements with anyone, you either have insurance  or die

Canada faced with a not inconsiderable number of american coming over the border to try and get life saving treatment, has humanly limited such treatment, emergency, to that which sustains life after that your obliged to transfer yourself to an american hospital, irrespective of if you can pay or not. your still taking up resources that Canadians have paid for, so flashing your credit card about will get you nowhere, and US medical insurance wont work there,,,  your getting patched up and sent home, which is seemingly what happened.

whilst this may appear to you to be under resourced health car, it is infact, the system working as designed and should really be a matter to take up with your congress man,


----------



## jobo (Mar 14, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Again, you show you ignorance with exuberance. This was in the 90's. All you needed to cross into Canada from the US was you photo ID drivers license and. There was no mandate for any 'required documentation'. A stupid assertion.
> 
> Paperwork issues aside, the point I was trying to make was how poor the service was once I was finally seen by a doctor. Obviously, you missed all that after I made the 'incoherent British accent' comment. Thin skinned much?
> 
> You really need to crawl out from under your rock and realize there is a great big world that lives very differently from the apparent pathetic existence you are living. You are VERY narrow minded.


 i can see you've not travelled much , despite the Fact you can just drive over the border Canada is a foreign country

if you travel to a foreign country, you are general not entitled to health care, unless there is a reciprocal agreement between the counties or you have insurance which is valid in that country, ie not america only insurance. its what we  globe trotters call '' travel insurance '' i was at one point walking found with a £ million in kidnap insurance, this may be a bit over the top for Canada, should should be considered if you ever stray out of north america

any one who doesn't verify what they need BEFORE finding they need medical attention are stupid in the extreme.

even counties with reciprocal agreements require you to produce documentation proving that

as it is, the politics between the two counties mean your getting patched up and sent home, no matter what you have, in which case insurance that covers your repatriation in an air ambulance seems wise


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 14, 2020)

skribs said:


> Well, my Master has suspended some of our special classes for the next month and a half.  In part because I'm sick today.  I don't think it's COVID-19 at this point, maybe allergies or a cold.  If I get a fever I'll definitely call my doctor.
> 
> Our regular classes are still on, but our special classes are on break.  One of those is Hapkido, which is probably a good thing since Hapkido is basically aggressive handshakes.


Take care of yourself Skribs.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 14, 2020)

jobo said:


> it cant have been understaffed or they would have been a big queue



It's cute that you think the triage desk is the only place a staffing bottleneck will form. 
In point of fact, it is far, far more likely to occur in the back. Come to our ED at 0300 and there are almost certainly going to be empty beds. And they're likely to stay empty, because we don't have the staff for them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah true, makes sense in that regard hey.. I just wonder how far this will be taken, AND if it is indeed a truly necessary measure yet. I don't know if it's something that spreads more rapidly than any other virus. Just keep hearing very mixed stuff about it in terms of numbers, percentages, rate of increase, whether it's nothing at all to worry about vs. it being at serious level etc..


From what I can tell so far, it looks to be about as contagious as the flu (which is pretty easily spread), and significantly more likely to turn deadly (though still a relatively small %), especially among specific groups. And it appears that many folks carry it awhile before showing symptoms...if they ever do, at all. Each of those points taken alone sounds not so bad. Put together, it has the potential to be a real problem if it spreads through a population.

But not nearly so bad as the run on toilet paper and hand sanitizer would suggest.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> This was in the 90's.




Well that's a reason to judge a country's health system in 2020. 



dvcochran said:


> the point I was trying to make was how poor the service was *once I was finally seen by* *a doctor*.



Your complaint is actually about one doctor then not a whole country's hospitals, doctors, nurses and healthcare system.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2020)

333kenshin said:


> Thank you for actually answering the original question ("what are you doing about...") which I find much more interesting and salient than comparing the shortcomings of various national medical systems (each system fails in some way, the question is how and whom).
> 
> My sensei cancelled an event last weekend but continues to hold regular classes. My gut says that in light of Friday's declaration of national emergency, followed by our local school district declaring closure, he should go a step further and shut down for a week or two. But he thinks not only would that gesture be empty, but in its own way irresponsible, giving the false impression that things are all better. I'm not sure I agree with that perspective, but not sure I can dismiss it outright either.
> 
> ...


I don’t see much point in preemptive closure for small venues, outside of hotspot areas.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> What I've yet to find is the population per square mile. so for instance here in NY most of the museums have shut down. But the hospitals remain open, and I guarantee you that they have a higher population density than the average museum.


I think that’s a matter of necessary functions.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2020)

Thread locked pending staff review. 

*Gerry Seymour*
MartialTalk Moderator
@gpseymour


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 14, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I think that’s a matter of necessary functions.


Yup. But i was just pointing out it's not a blanket thing. So there are likely other exceptions (certain office/political buildings and meetings im sure will still occur).


----------

