# From the outside looking in



## TKDTony2179 (Oct 9, 2013)

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/m...s-wing-chun-techniques-and-wing-chun-history/

I came across this the other day. Now yes I don't train in WC but I have my interest in it since a little kid. From my understanding there is a center line, two upper gates and two lower gates. Mr. William says there are 1, 2, 3, 4 center lines?  I knoe I have one and my opponent have one but can you guyd make since to me of the other two. Thanks or if you disagree with him please tell me why.


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## Argus (Oct 10, 2013)

Well, I don't train in William Cheung's lineage, but I have heard people refer to "multiple centerlines."

Usually, what they're trying to express is the idea that when your body shifts, you now have "two" centerlines. 
You have the line that comes squarely off of your chest, and you have the line relative to you and your opponent. 

Consider this scenario; you defend against a round attack with a small pivot, a tan-sau or biu-sau, and a punch.
The defending hand (the tan/biu) follows your original centerline, square to your chest.
Your attacking hand chases your opponent's center; taking a straight line between its origin and the target, regardless of facing.

Some people also misinterpret the centerline as containing the areas you want to attack on your opponent. However, obviously your opponent moves and shifts, and may wind up presenting his side or back; in this case, you simply just keep chasing his "core"; the centerline, if you will, runs directly down the middle of the body, and not just the front. You're just aiming center-of-mass.

Some people have really complicated ways of explaining all of this, but it's really pretty straight forward and logical.


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## Eric_H (Oct 13, 2013)

TKDTony2179 said:


> http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/m...s-wing-chun-techniques-and-wing-chun-history/
> 
> I came across this the other day. Now yes I don't train in WC but I have my interest in it since a little kid. From my understanding there is a center line, two upper gates and two lower gates. Mr. William says there are 1, 2, 3, 4 center lines?  I knoe I have one and my opponent have one but can you guyd make since to me of the other two. Thanks or if you disagree with him please tell me why.



Using two hand simultaneously to address both bridging and opponent's COG isn't creating another centerline IMO. I see what he's driving at, but I wouldn't have used that terminology to explain it.


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## Marnetmar (Oct 13, 2013)

Knowing William Cheung's history and just the entire way he conducts himself as a person, I would take anything he says with a grain of salt. This video should give you a basic idea of the concepts used in most lineages of Wing Chun:


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## geezer (Oct 13, 2013)

Like others have already said, don't over-complicate things. There are several lines considered in WC. Consider it like three axis : 

http://www.povray.org/documentation/images/tutorial/handed.png

In our lineage, we primarily consider the vertical axis (Y), the horizontal or lateral axis (Z), and the longitudinal axis (X). The three axis cross at  the *"centerpoint"* at the base of the sternum or solar plexus, with the longitudinal axis (X) or *"centerline"* extending straight forward from the chest. A forth line of consideration is what I call the _connecting line_ which links our center to our opponent's center regardless of which way we are facing.

When engaging an opponent, we strive to keep our centerline (X) focused squarely on our opponent's center-point, intersecting his vertical axis. This way both our hands can strike at his center of mass equally with our body mass directly behind our strikes. The ideal situation is to have your centerline pointing directly at your opponent's center, while his centerline is deflected away from your center. In other words _you want your centerline to be on the "connecting line"_ linking your two centers of mass, but your opponent's centerline to miss your center. 

Yeah I know, ...kinda hard to visualize, but _very simple to demonstrate_. That's why it's best to learn from a good sifu.


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## mograph (Oct 13, 2013)

geezer said:


> When engaging an opponent, we strive to keep our centerline (X) focused squarely on our opponent's center-point, intersecting his vertical axis. This way both our hands can strike at his center of mass equally with our body mass directly behind our strikes. The ideal situation is to have your centerline pointing directly at your opponent's center, while his centerline is deflected away from your center. In other words _you want your centerline to be on the "connecting line"_ linking your two centers of mass, but your opponent's centerline to miss your center.


Okay. Just to see if I've got it: viewed from above, if a body is viewed as a circle, the connecting line is defined as the line that links the centers of the two circles, and the direction you face is irrelevant to the connecting line. You could be back-to-back, and the connecting line would still link the two centers. However, each person also has a _centerline_, which is a like a ray shooting straight out, forward, from his/her center. If you face the opponent, your centerline (ray-thing) is aligned with the (mutual) connecting line. However, if you turn away from the opponent, your centerline (ray thing) is pointing away from the opponent's centerline, and is not aligned with the (mutual) connecting line. To influence the opponent, you want to face him/her, while he/she faces away (slightly or a lot). This makes sense: if you are aiming straight at your opponent, and they are aiming off to the right, you have the advantage. 

Is that about right?


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## geezer (Oct 13, 2013)

mograph said:


> Okay. Just to see if I've got it: viewed from above, if a body is viewed as a circle, the connecting line is defined as the line that links the centers of the two circles, and the direction you face is irrelevant to the connecting line. You could be back-to-back, and the connecting line would still link the two centers. However, each person also has a _centerline_, which is a like a ray shooting straight out, forward, from his/her center. If you face the opponent, your centerline (ray-thing) is aligned with the (mutual) connecting line. However, if you turn away from the opponent, your centerline (ray thing) is pointing away from the opponent's centerline, and is not aligned with the (mutual) connecting line. To influence the opponent, you want to face him/her, while he/she faces away (slightly or a lot). This makes sense: if you are aiming straight at your opponent, and they are aiming off to the right, you have the advantage.
> 
> Is that about right?



_Exactly._ And it's not just a WC thing. In the FMA I practice we do all kinds of off-lining and angling to get an advantage. Boxers work this kinda thing too. What's specific to WC is the way we fight with our shoulders facing square to our opponent so that both hands come into play equally. Most other arts, such as the FMA I mentioned, orient the body at an angle to their opponent and have a strong side and a weak side.


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## StormShadow (Oct 14, 2013)

geezer said:


> _Exactly._ And it's not just a WC thing. In the FMA I practice we do all kinds of off-lining and angling to get an advantage. Boxers work this kinda thing too. What's specific to WC is the way we fight with our shoulders facing square to our opponent so that both hands come into play equally. Most other arts, such as the FMA I mentioned, orient the body at an angle to their opponent and have a strong side and a weak side.



Speaking as someone who currently trains in the William Cheung lineage....We have the center and the central line.  Our footwork brings to to the central line in some situations with blocking and attacking simultaneously.  Especially since opponents who can fight move, and move rapidly attacking from various angles, doubling back, doubling punches and attacks.


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## StormShadow (Oct 14, 2013)

Even more simply put, you don't always have to have you center line facing the opponents face per-say to hit them.  That's where the central line comes into play where your punch, leg, foot is all lined up on the central line providing attacking power supported by body mechanics.


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## J W (Oct 14, 2013)

TKDTony2179 said:


> http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/m...s-wing-chun-techniques-and-wing-chun-history/
> 
> I came across this the other day. Now yes I don't train in WC but I have my interest in it since a little kid. From my understanding there is a center line, two upper gates and two lower gates. Mr. William says there are 1, 2, 3, 4 center lines?  I knoe I have one and my opponent have one but can you guyd make since to me of the other two. Thanks or if you disagree with him please tell me why.



Seems to me that he is talking about 4 "centers" in the video, not 4 centerlines. I know that William Cheung's TWC has some different ideas than most other WC families, such as the central (as opposed to center) line that StormShadow pointed out. He or another TWC guy may be able to better expand on the 4 "centers" that the video discusses.


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## StormShadow (Oct 15, 2013)

It's basically using footwork and blocks/deflections to get to your opponents blind side and "T" off if possible.  That's a goal. Just an additional philosophy. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## geezer (Oct 15, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> Even more simply put, you don't always have to have you center line facing the opponents face per-say to hit them.  That's where the central line comes into play where your punch, leg, foot is all lined up on the central line providing attacking power supported by body mechanics.



I personally never found those TWC terms to be very clear. Of course, originally coming from a WT background, we were generally opposed to anything to do with "TWC" by virtue of the ridiculous feud between LT and William Cheung. LOL

Anyway, I still don't get the whole "center/central-line" thinking. But _I do get what Phil is doing_ in the following clip. The way he moves around the big guy to his outside or "blind-side" is right on the money as far as I'm concerned. "TWC" or whatever. It just looks like good, practical WC to me.


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## StormShadow (Oct 16, 2013)

Master Redmond is basically demoing the center/central line.... You're not directly facing your opponent... you're more on  a 45° angel where your opp doesn't have a direct line of sight on your center line.  This vid looks pretty old.  This was recorded at my kwoon a long time ago it looks. 
Do you also fight on the blind side in WT?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## TKDTony2179 (Oct 19, 2013)

Marnetmar said:


> Knowing William Cheung's history and just the entire way he conducts himself as a person, I would take anything he says with a grain of salt. This video should give you a basic idea of the concepts used in most lineages of Wing Chun:



I have seen this video once before and yea that is how I pretty much understand wc and center line.


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