# Martial Artists and Spanking



## Makalakumu

If you practice a martial art where you train to use force only as a last resort, would this apply to using force to discipline your own children?  As a martial artist and a parent, how do you rationalize the use of force with spanking?  As a martial artist, how do you view spanking in general?


----------



## Xue Sheng

I don't do spanking


----------



## Tames D

My boys are 6 and 7 years of age. I've never spanked them or even threated to. I always find another way to calm the chaos.


----------



## Makalakumu

Do you feel that your martial arts training influenced your decision or do you decide not to spank for different reasons?


----------



## JBrainard

I don't think it matters if you're a martial artist or not.
I think spanking is acceptable only when the child is very young, as in: you can't communicate with them. A toddler who only talkes baby talk isn't going to understand you when you say "No, it's not ok to smash your fists into the sterio." They do understand, however, that a spanking doesn't feel good.
That being said, once the child is old enough that you can rationalize with them on some level, then spanking is unnecessary.


----------



## Xue Sheng

upnorthkyosa said:


> Do you feel that your martial arts training influenced your decision or do you decide not to spank for different reasons?


 
It is not how my parents discipline me and it is not how I discipline my children


----------



## Tames D

upnorthkyosa said:


> Do you feel that your martial arts training influenced your decision or do you decide not to spank for different reasons?


In junior high school the teachers and coaches gave 'swats' to the male students, using custom made boards with small holes drilled through them (for additional speed). I decided that when I became a parent I would never subject my kids to that kind of disipline. I don't think it's neccesary.


----------



## Blotan Hunka

I have had to spank each of my children only once or twice apiece. Typically at the disobedient toddler age. They were all a simple yet firm swat to the seat of the pants. When done properly, and in the right circumstances it lets them know that disobedience will have consequences. Before a certain age, children dont understand reason. Used as a tool of discipline it works. As a vent for your frustration? Never.


----------



## Sukerkin

Sadly, altho' it may be at odds with my points of view on 'adult' discipline, I cannot say that I agree with the basic tenet that physical punishment is less than optimal for the training of children.

One of the chief underlying causes for the observed rise of disruptive and criminal behaviour in general society is a lack of proper discipline.  The key is in the word really.  'Discipline' is not 'abuse'.

Speaking from my own experience (and there is little else we can all really 'quote' authoratively), not many days went by in my early years when I didn't get a spanking for something.  Did this mean I was abused?  Not to my mind.  I was willful, disobedient and aggressive - I got a good hiding because I would not do what I was told and would not be amenable to reason.

As I was the firstborn and the only boy as well, my father feels he was too hard on me because he was learning how to be a parent.  I have to confess that it tears me up that he feels guilty for making me a useful member of society rather than a 'self serving thug'.  

I was never under any illusions as to _why_ I was being punished and from what I can recall I deserved pretty much all instances (other than those cases when my sisters dropped me in it for something they did .

Physical punishment is a necessary evil for certain personality types, as my upbringing proved, as children are not 'little adults' and nor are they 'innocents'.  

They have all the negative and violent instincts of their developing brains and emotions to draw on but none of the trained restraints and cut-outs that you need to function as a societal being. If these impulses are not chanelled and directed then what you get is what you see on the news these days.

For some children, physical punishment is not required it is true.  To apply it then would be 'abuse' as they do not need it to adjust their behaviour.  For some, whose aggressive nature is like mine was, it is necessary.


----------



## Makalakumu

Blotan Hunka said:


> I have had to spank each of my children only once or twice apiece. Typically at the disobedient toddler age. They were all a simple yet firm swat to the seat of the pants. When done properly, and in the right circumstances it lets them know that disobedience will have consequences. Before a certain age, children dont understand reason. Used as a tool of discipline it works. As a vent for your frustration? Never.


 
I have not had to spank either of my children yet, other methods of discipline have proven effective, but I do not rule it out.  I remember one time when I was kid, I put my brother in the radio flyer and deliberately pushed him down the driveway into the busy street.  My dad flew out of the door and snatched the wagon right before it was crushed by a truck.  

And then he came up and paddled my butt.  That, coupled with the fear of what I had almost done, taught me a lasting lesson.  That is pretty much the guideline that I would use.

Anyway, I feel pretty comfortable with my stance on this.  I feel that it is fairly consistent with the ethos we learn in TSD, which is to always seek alternative methods to deal with issues before resorting to force.  

But that's just me and I'm wondering what others think.  Thanks for the replies so far..

:asian:


----------



## tshadowchaser

My children where spanked when they needed it .  They grew up with respect to others and understanding that what they did would have consequences. They did not grow up as brats.

Now as to spankings in general I can think of a couple people I would enjoy spanking


----------



## jks9199

tshadowchaser said:


> My children where spanked when they needed it .  They grew up with respect to others and understanding that what they did would have consequences. They did not grow up as brats.
> 
> Now as to spankings in general I can think of a couple people I would enjoy spanking


My opinion (based solely on observation; no youngsters of my own yet, and I generally avoid how to raise kids type stuff until the kids become my business...) is similar.  I won't rule out spanking or paddling when I have kids -- but I believe it's more the shock and immediate correction tied to it than any actual injury.  *And spanking/paddling/discipline should NEVER actually injure a kid!*  Below a certain point in their development, a kid needs to be treated kind of like a dog, I think.  The discipline needs to be immediate, and memorable; they won't remember what they did wrong if it's 20 or 30 minutes ago and won't know why their being punished.  Logic don't work on an infant -- or some 3 year olds.  (Or quite a few 16 year olds... but that's a different question!)  When you can move from immediate, probably physical, punishment to more reasoning-type approaches will depend on the kid...  I've known some that by 2 years old would be depressed for a week if you frowned at them...and others that at 6 or 7 didn't understand that there are rules -- and the rules applied to them!


----------



## RED

Touchy subject. I believe in discipline, which includes the occational spanking. the discipline needs to match the crime. I think Martial Arts help one to control their anger which is of the most important thing in spanking. If you are spanking in anger then the child becomes embittered. I take the child to the "mens room" (a designated place ie bathroom , bedroom somewhere private not public.) then I have a specific paddle that is only used for spanking. I first talk to the child so we both know the reason for the punishment. Then I have a set number of swats (3) they recieve. After the act is complete. I talk to the child again to let them know they are forgiven for the infringment. The time is always ended with a hug and "you are forgiven". we don't leave the room angry at all. If I can't get a grip on my anger then my wife interceeds and dose the deed and vice versa. The thing about spanking that is so important is the need for love to be in the action, not anger. My children are older now and I've only had to spank them a couple times in the past year. Reandomly smacking your kids is degrading and humiliating. I'm sure we have all seen the parent grab their kid at the store an hit them. This dose nothing for either the parent or the kid, as well as the smack across the face. This is extremely humilating to the child. I got my but spanked often as a child, but it was always done with love. It made me a better person today. It builds integrity. 

Just my 2¥


----------



## sholo86

I have two boys (6 and 8 yrs old) and they usually listen when I use the "voice of god" , but during those times that even with the sterniest god-like voice don't seem to work, I give them a good swat on their behind just to bring them back to reality and unclog both of thems ears.


----------



## stickarts

Using a chart to monitor our daughters good bevavior and bad behavior and having her earn special treats such as going to movies has worked the best for our daughter.
she earns a sticker everytime she does something extra good and loses stickers if she misbehaves. she is allowed some room for error since she is only 6 and not expected t be perfect anymore than we are.

This has worked the best for us. Our daughter does not respond to negative reenforcement well. It just makes her worse.
i think she does try to control her emotions but she just isn't always there yet in her development and it takes time and patience.

I do think as a parent we need to teach our children boundries of right and wrong but you have to find the best way for your child.

Spanking isn't the right approach for us.


----------



## Makalakumu

RED said:


> Touchy subject. I believe in discipline, which includes the occational spanking. the discipline needs to match the crime. I think Martial Arts help one to control their anger which is of the most important thing in spanking. If you are spanking in anger then the child becomes embittered. I take the child to the "mens room" (a designated place ie bathroom , bedroom somewhere private not public.) then I have a specific paddle that is only used for spanking. I first talk to the child so we both know the reason for the punishment. Then I have a set number of swats (3) they recieve. After the act is complete. I talk to the child again to let them know they are forgiven for the infringment. The time is always ended with a hug and "you are forgiven". we don't leave the room angry at all. If I can't get a grip on my anger then my wife interceeds and dose the deed and vice versa. The thing about spanking that is so important is the need for love to be in the action, not anger. My children are older now and I've only had to spank them a couple times in the past year. Reandomly smacking your kids is degrading and humiliating. I'm sure we have all seen the parent grab their kid at the store an hit them. This dose nothing for either the parent or the kid, as well as the smack across the face. This is extremely humilating to the child. I got my but spanked often as a child, but it was always done with love. It made me a better person today. It builds integrity.
> 
> Just my 2¥


 
This is exactly what my parents did and I think that if you are going to spank, this is probably a good guideline.  

One of the issues that is addressed above and I think is really important is the anger issue.  When your kids do something and you immediately smack them because you are angry or if you spank when you are still angry, then I think the message you are sending is powerfully negative.  I think you are teaching them that hitting someone when you are angry is okay and that power can be used when you are bigger and stronger.  

As a martial artists, both of those things run counter to the ethos of my training.


----------



## Sukerkin

*Red*'s post is an excellent one and the central point is message that needs to be gotten across to the 'bleeding hearts and artists' that have removed the necessary 'tools' of discipline from parents hands.  

As I said in my original post, discipline is not abuse and I truly cannot recall a smack that I got from my father that was fueled by anger.  Most were heavily tinged with regret as far as I remember and, most importantly, I was never at a loss as to what I was being punished for.

As an aside, is it common for parents to slap their children across the face!?  That only happened to me once when I was being 'brave' and belligerently back-talking my mother whilst simultaneously disdaining the "wait until your father gets home" warning :blush:.  Essentially she was letting me know that, if I pushed enough, then she wouldn't need to wait for 'administrative punishment' to be administered.  She never needed to do that again, so I reckon that counts as "lesson learned" .


----------



## terryl965

I really enjoyedREDS post it that about sums it up for me


----------



## Ray

My children are grown now.  They were spanked but not often.  Spanking wasn't the disciplinary action, it was sometimes used to get their attention.


----------



## bushidomartialarts

I plan to follow the model my parents (neither of whom were martial artists at the time) used with me and my brothers.

When we were toddlers (not yet able to reason effectively) they'd swat us on the rump if we were doing something dangerous for a second or third time.  This was always after at least one verbal warning.  

After that, they never laid a hand on us until we became aggressive and defiant teens. During my teenage years, I got hit once each by my dad and my mom.  I deserved both and both changed my behavior and attitude.


----------



## Ping898

I think my mom did it well, I was spanked, but the way I was spanked was her basically "clapping" her hands by resting on hand palm up on my butt and hitting it, so I felt some pressure and heard the noise of the slap, but there was never any pain...I think it worked well.  I think if you do it right the fear of a spanking can be almost as effective as the spanking itself....I think I was maybe 6 or 7 the last time I was spanked, if not younger....


----------



## DavidCC

stickarts said:


> Our daughter does not respond to negative reenforcement well. It just makes her worse.


 
I hope she learns to before she becomes and adult... it's pretty much the way of the world, isn't it?


I try to spank my daughter but her downward blocks are just too good haha


----------



## Brother John

upnorthkyosa said:


> If you practice a martial art where you train to use force only as a last resort, would this apply to using force to discipline your own children?  As a martial artist and a parent, how do you rationalize the use of force with spanking?  As a martial artist, how do you view spanking in general?


I don't see the issues of being a martial artist and chosing to use corporal/physical punishment on ones children related.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Makalakumu

Brother John said:


> I don't see the issues of being a martial artist and chosing to use corporal/physical punishment on ones children related.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
Both regard the use of physical force don't they?  Both could be veiwed as a form of pain compliance couldn't they?


----------



## Brother John

upnorthkyosa said:


> Both regard the use of physical force don't they?  Both could be veiwed as a form of pain compliance couldn't they?


hmm...
their motives, methods, purposes and means are different.
Pounding a nail into a wall also involves physical force.
Torturing supposed terrorists is also a form of pain compliance.
Neither have much of anything at all to do with martial arts OR the judicious and conscientious use of corpral punishment on ones children.

just don't agree I guess.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Makalakumu

Many martial skills have nothing to do with defending oneself and have everything to do with subduing or making someone else comply with your wishes.  If you spank a child for discipline, aren't you using force in order to make them comply with some sort of criterion you have established?

Also, if you strike your child's bottom with your hand, you are essentially applying force to another person's body with a part of your body are you not?


----------



## bushidomartialarts

Point that came up in a recent discussion.

I know several moms who are emphatically anti spanking.  They say they'd never, ever strike their children.

And yet two of those moms think nothing of using any of the 'mommy jitsu' nerve holds we all know and love.  You know, that one at the elbow, or the hand on the shoulder with the thumb on the collarbone.  The ones mom would use when you were thinking about acting out in public, to steer you in the right direction.

I don't grok the difference there.  Not that I'm anti spanking or against mom-do.  I just don't groove on hypocrisy.


----------



## Makalakumu

bushidomartialarts said:


> Point that came up in a recent discussion.
> 
> I know several moms who are emphatically anti spanking. They say they'd never, ever strike their children.
> 
> And yet two of those moms think nothing of using any of the 'mommy jitsu' nerve holds we all know and love. You know, that one at the elbow, or the hand on the shoulder with the thumb on the collarbone. The ones mom would use when you were thinking about acting out in public, to steer you in the right direction.
> 
> I don't grok the difference there. Not that I'm anti spanking or against mom-do. I just don't groove on hypocrisy.


 
Neither do I.  That is why I started this thread.  I think that alot of people have alot of unexamined assumptions about spanking and disciplining children and these assumptions, IMHO, just happen to have parellels to some types of training.

And I have totally been the victim of mommy jutsu.  My mother had five boys and when we got bigger then her, she develped some joint locking skills that could have you dancing and coming along when nothing else worked.

Funny, some of those locks involved the ears...


----------



## Blotan Hunka

upnorthkyosa said:


> Many martial skills have nothing to do with defending oneself and have everything to do with subduing or making someone else comply with your wishes. If you spank a child for discipline, aren't you using force in order to make them comply with some sort of criterion you have established?
> 
> Also, if you strike your child's bottom with your hand, you are essentially applying force to another person's body with a part of your body are you not?


 
I dont think so. Spanking isnt "forcing compliance" because its administered after a bad action has been completed. The child still has the choice to continue the bad behavior in the future and face the punishment. "Forced compliance" , by definition forces someone to do something, it is like a cop batoning your arms to get you to put your arms behind your back. Spanking is immediate feedback/punishment. Spanking, when done as a disciplinary act sends the message that actions have consequences. My daughter last got spanked when she had a tantrum, refused to hold hands in a parking lot, pulled away and ran into the lot. Fortunately there were no cars passing by. She got an immediate and firm swat on the backside. Both for the refusal to hold hands when told and for willfully running off into a dangerous situation. I didnt "force compliance", she ran into traffic. And she had the choice to do it again. Its been her decision to not do it again. I am the parent, I DO SET THE CRITERION FOR BEHAVIOR. Full stop, period.


----------



## Brother John

upnorthkyosa said:


> Many martial skills have nothing to do with defending oneself and have everything to do with subduing or making someone else comply with your wishes.  If you spank a child for discipline, aren't you using force in order to make them comply with some sort of criterion you have established?
> 
> Also, if you strike your child's bottom with your hand, you are essentially applying force to another person's body with a part of your body are you not?


I guess I'm just saying that defeding oneself and subduing a person in combat is very different than using corpral punishment on your child.

If I use an arm-bar and affect the nerve behind your elbow in order to cause the immediate pain shock that will get you to step forward and perhaps go to one knee...putting me at a more advantageous position to your disempowered position; then I've used pain compliance to control your body in combat.
If my son tells me that he's stollen something from the store, I tell him to sit on the edge of his bed....that I will come back in 5 minutes to give him his punishment. Then five minutes later I come in, talk to him about what he did, why it's bad, why I can't let something like that go on without consequences that get and keep his attention (putting it in terms HE could understand though, I don't talk like this to my little boy)...then I give him five swats on his rump, then set him on the bed next to me while we discuss what he should have done. Later I tell him that I love him and believe he'll do better next time....
These two instances are very different and bare no similarities other than bodily contact was made and there was some pain involved in each. That's pretty much it, and its a shallow correlation.
Combat situation = *A*
Parenting situation = *B*

In *A* my life and well being was in danger, that's why I caused pain. I did it immediately and in a sense of urgency. My regard for this person was LOW and I didn't care that he 'understand' why I was causing him pain. In fact, the less he knows while I'm taking over control of his body through pain....the better. My objective was to mete out pain in order control the position of his body.

In *B* my life wasn't in danger. It was important that I NOT do it "Immediately"...but that I put a gap between my decision to use corpral punishment and the act itself, in order to ensure that I didn't use any kind of 'emotion' behind it. So NO urgency. My regard for my son is as HIGH as I could ever dream humanly possible!! THAT was my reason for doing this at all, so that I could better raise him to be a MAN that cares about right and wrong because he's had, from a young age....consistently.....the difference taught to him and impressed upon his conscience (By _*MUCH*_ more than just this one form of discipline). I did it FOR his benefit, not mine. In A I did it for ME....to hell with HIM......this one, B, is the reverse of it. I HATE to have my son suffer pain or fear of being 'disciplined'. But I HATE HATE HATE the thought of him growing up without discipline, without having a father that teaches him in everyway the need and reason for being a "Good Man". So I do it. In B I did it NOT to control his physical body...but to impress upon his deep mind the Wrongness of his actions. I draw for him a strong correlation between what he did, it's nature....and what's happened to him as a result.

Yes; I use corpral punishment in raising my *two* kids. They're young: my son is 8 and my daughter is 6........and they ARE my life. I use it Sparingly, but I do use it. The PAIN itself isn't even the real punishment, the fear of it....those FIVE minutes of waiting and knowing that daddy completely disaproves of what you've done.....that's the anguish my kids feel. I'm glad they do too, because it tells my that I matter to them, that what others think of thim matters....and that goes a long way toward building a conscience that extends past our societies common message of "It's ONLY wrong if you get caught."

Currently I don't recall how long it's been since I've had to 'spank', but I think I've done it twice since his last birthday (Sept) for my son and once for my daughter in that time, so it's NOT often..... partly because, well..... I've been BLESSED with Good kids! ...and partly because they're getting raised well... and then again.....becuase NOT every circumstance warrants it.

It bares NO relationship or semblance to the pain I'd invoke in combat when defending my life, or the pain I train to doll out through the martial arts.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Brother John

Blotan Hunka said:


> I dont think so. Spanking isnt "forcing compliance" because its administered after a bad action has been completed. The child still has the choice to continue the bad behavior in the future and face the punishment. "Forced compliance" , by definition forces someone to do something, it is like a cop batoning your arms to get you to put your arms behind your back. Spanking is immediate feedback/punishment. Spanking, when done as a disciplinary act sends the message that actions have consequences. My daughter last got spanked when she had a tantrum, refused to hold hands in a parking lot, pulled away and ran into the lot. Fortunately there were no cars passing by. She got an immediate and firm swat on the backside. Both for the refusal to hold hands when told and for willfully running off into a dangerous situation. I didnt "force compliance", she ran into traffic. And she had the choice to do it again. Its been her decision to not do it again. I am the parent, I DO SET THE CRITERION FOR BEHAVIOR. Full stop, period.


:tantrum::whip1:
:highfive:

silly pics!
Just thought I'd use them to be cute....

But Blotan-
VERY appropriate use of the one pop swat!! And GOOD way to put it. 


> I am the parent, I DO SET THE CRITERION FOR BEHAVIOR. Full stop, period


...as a correctional officer for troubled teens, I deal with LOTS of boys who NEEEEEEDed discipline at the right stage in life....and NEVER got it. 

Discipline MUST BE Disciplined!!!!!! I think my brother Blotan would agree. You don't do it willy-nilly. (WOw....I actually used "willy-nilly" in a sentence) It's used for the proper reasons at the proper times and to the proper extent. 
It's not abuse!
But it's absence, I think, can be negligence and neglect.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Blotan Hunka

I believe that in the desire to fight child abuse (and a righteous cause that is) we have branded any sort of corporal punishment as "abuse". A swat on the backside or even a slap to the face of a kid that calls you a mother****er (hope the built in censor works) is not abuse. I believe most state laws allow the use of physical force in child rearing. But it absolutely had to be done as discipline, not out of anger and restrained. The old days of switches, belts, paddles, yardsticks, wooden spoons etc. IS going too far by todays standards. Even though I may have tasted a few of those in my time . Like any discipline, it must be sure, immediate and appropriate. The sickos who injure, break, bind, burn etc. kids in the name of discipline belong behind bars.


----------



## bushidomartialarts

Blotan Hunka said:


> . But it absolutely had to be done as discipline, not out of anger and restrained.



I believe this is the key.  Wanting to strike a child is the surest sign that you shouldn't.  Corporal discipline administered calmly and appropriately is more effective anyway.

Getting mad and smacking your kid teaches them that the strongest dude in the room gets to smack the weaker ones.  Calm, appropriate, consistent discipline (physical and otherwise) teaches that decisions carry consequences.


----------



## Makalakumu

Blotan Hunka said:


> I dont think so. Spanking isnt "forcing compliance" because its administered after a bad action has been completed. The child still has the choice to continue the bad behavior in the future and face the punishment. "Forced compliance" , by definition forces someone to do something, it is like a cop batoning your arms to get you to put your arms behind your back. Spanking is immediate feedback/punishment. Spanking, when done as a disciplinary act sends the message that actions have consequences. My daughter last got spanked when she had a tantrum, refused to hold hands in a parking lot, pulled away and ran into the lot. Fortunately there were no cars passing by. She got an immediate and firm swat on the backside. Both for the refusal to hold hands when told and for willfully running off into a dangerous situation. I didnt "force compliance", she ran into traffic. And she had the choice to do it again. Its been her decision to not do it again. I am the parent, I DO SET THE CRITERION FOR BEHAVIOR. Full stop, period.


 
I see your point about consequences, however, I still think that this is also an example of pain compliance.  Did your daughter hold your hand after her swat?  Was your feedback strong enough to get her to comply with your criterion for proper behavior?  I have given my daughter a swat for the same reasons, the behavioral consequence and for the fact that what she was doing at the time was very unsafe and I needed her to cooperate RIGHT NOW because it was unsafe.

Can you see the similarities with situation and what would normally be termed as pain compliance?


----------



## Makalakumu

Brother John said:


> Currently I don't recall how long it's been since I've had to 'spank', but I think I've done it twice since his last birthday (Sept) for my son and once for my daughter in that time, so it's NOT often..... partly because, well..... I've been BLESSED with Good kids! ...and partly because they're getting raised well... and then again.....becuase NOT every circumstance warrants it.


 
My youngest is really too young to be spanked and he really doesn't need it anyway because he is so easy to redirect.  My eldest is willful and stubborn but usually susceptible to reason and is all around a good kid.  Almost all disciplinary situations have been solved with other means.



Brother John said:


> It bares NO relationship or semblance to the pain I'd invoke in combat when defending my life, or the pain I train to doll out through the martial arts.


 
For most of us who train in self defense arts, this is going to be true.  The intent is totally different.  However, sometimes the means aren't as different as we think.  Mommy-do "come along" holds, pressure points, and controlled swats are tools.  Sure, they are tools used for a different purpose, but they are tools none the less.

This may be a bit of a stretch for a lot of people and thats fine.  I can understand if you don't think they are related AT ALL.  However, I see a relationship and I feel that ethos I've developed as a martial artist can inform how I use these tools.


----------



## Makalakumu

bushidomartialarts said:


> Getting mad and smacking your kid teaches them that the strongest dude in the room gets to smack the weaker ones. Calm, appropriate, consistent discipline (physical and otherwise) teaches that decisions carry consequences.


 
I agree and I think that if you think about when using force is appropriate and how to control your mind so that you are in the correct mindset to use this, then I think you might see a parellel that I'm trying to address.


----------



## CTKempo Todd

Good topic
I thing the two items have NOTHING to do with each other..

One is teaching and learning the art/s of self defense and the other is the art of parenting.  (if you have ever spanked your child when was the last time you did it with a spinning backfist?? The 2 are just not related)

As a parent, whether you decide to use spanking as a tool to bring up your child is your own business and yet another topic. (aside from being a martial artist and a parent). 

My personal view...
As a parent of 2 girls (God Help me), one is going on 14 and of course challenges everything I say and the other is 8..I have in the past spanked each one when they needed a wake up call..(This is how I was brought up and my parents did a damm good job if I do say so myself LOL)

Those that are against spanking should not get on any soapbox and try to tell me its wrong. (Not saying anyone here is doing that so please no one take this personally). It is frankly none of your business. In my opinion we are raising kids from a very early age in a consequence free environment. This is translating to having a bunch of punks as teenagers who cannot have anything done to them because again there are no consequences (starting when they were little). Remember when you walked up to a Police office or a Firemen and you had amazing respect and admiration for them? Remember how you would not DARE raise your voice to your mother because you were afraid of CONSEQUENCES..

Nowadays there is none of that..Kids never hear the word NO..they get everything they want..People stand in line at 2 AM and fight over toys at Christmas because it is now the PARENTS fearing the consequences if the child does not get what they want. Now if they misbehave they get a 'time out' (what is this a sports contest!!) or get sent to a room packed with TVs and video games. 

I also agree with positive reinforcement as well. That is a very good tool. However there are times discipline needs to be enforced. 

Kids are a running the show these days and parents are no longer parents.

Thanks for letting me rant and remember these are just my views and I make no judgements on anyone else.

I feel better..


----------



## Bigshadow

upnorthkyosa said:


> If you practice a martial art where you train to use force only as a last resort, would this apply to using force to discipline your own children?  As a martial artist and a parent, how do you rationalize the use of force with spanking?  As a martial artist, how do you view spanking in general?



Wow, great question! 

My thoughts about spanking has been formed from my childhood where my parents did do that and some other bits of research, but I am not sure just how much my martial arts training has affected.  I really don't think spanking is useful.  It seems to me to be an excuse for the parent to vent their anger.  There are much better methods of punishment.


Anyway, I have rarely spanked my son in 12 years, maybe once or twice max.  However, a pop on butt is not out the question when they are young.  When a child is very young they have a very short attention span.  At that age, a quick pop (not a spanking) on the hind end is an extremely effective way to get their immediate undivided attention!    I have always reserved this for situations where disobeying would cause my son or someone harm and anything along that line.  As they get older, I don't think this is an effective tool.  I believe as they get older and understand concepts and values, other methods are more effective in achieving the desired outcome.

Nowadays, I can talk to my 12 year old son and have him understand the gravity of the situation without resorting to spanking.  Worst case, he gets something taken from him or is punished in other ways that he can rationalize and understand the consequences of his actions.

However there are two things I have seen parents do that I refuse to do as I believe is psychologically damaging and that is slapping the face and belittling the child.  Regardless of what my son does, I do not do these things.   It is important for him to understand what he did wrong but not at the expense of his esteem.


----------



## CTKempo Todd

Bigshadow said:


> However there are two things I have seen parents do that I refuse to do as I believe is psychologically damaging and that is slapping the face and belittling the child. Regardless of what my son does, I do not do these things. It is important for him to understand what he did wrong but not at the expense of his esteem.


 
I absolutely agree with David with this comment as well. Spanking can't be done out of frustration or anger (maybe being calm in the face of a storm as a trained martial artist relates here) and yes, like David there comes a point and an age where spanking is pointless and creates rage and anger.


----------



## thardey

I have a 6 month old son, and my wife and I are deciding how to discipline, and how to be consistent about it, which we believe is extremely important. A lot of it will have to depend on his personality as it develops. 

I have, however been around horses for all of my life, and I grew up in the new "Horse Whisperer" type of mentality. For those who don't know, it's against the idea of "Breaking" a horse's spirit, but instead tries to gain the trust and loyalty of the horse, so that it wants to please you. Instead of a master/slave type of relationship, you want a rider/friend type of relationship. 

Something that I learned from that regarding physical force as punishment is that horses can take a lot before they submit, and if you rely on that with a strong-willed horse, then you have to always increase the pain to keep the horse obedient. You have to get harsher bits, meaner spurs, and more and more contraptions to keep the horse in check. This is a bad tack to take. (Whoops, no pun intended).

Instead horses hate to be left out of the herd, that's a more effective punishment for them -- to feed them last, or to cut short a training time and put them in a stall while you are paying attention to a different horse, etc. But if you just ignore them, they never learn what they did wrong.

So, with horses, (and my current plan is to try this with my son, since we're ultimately herd animals ourselves), when they do something wrong, you have to let them know right away that you are displeased. Often this is a quick pop on the neck, or making noise, or sometimes even just waving your hand at their face, but it never is painful or degrading, it's just an instant message that you are unhappy. 



Bigshadow said:


> Anyway, I have rarely spanked my son in 12 years, maybe once or twice max.  However, a pop on butt is not out the question when they are young.  When a child is very young they have a very short attention span.  At that age, a quick pop (not a spanking) on the hind end is an extremely effective way to get their immediate undivided attention!



Then, after that is when you administer whatever actual punishment is appropriate (for horses, a "time out" works very well). You HAVE to be firm, or the horse learns that you can be manipulated. After the punishment period, you then HAVE to take the time and re-unite with the horse, to "let them back into your herd". 

In this way, the horse learns that 1.) What behaviors are appropriate or not, 2.) That you can't be manipulated, and 3.) Even if you are upset, the horse still has your unconditional acceptance in your life not based on performance.

It's a time consuming process, and it's a pain when they test you right as you are about to leave for work, and you have to go through the whole process, but horses are too big and dangerous to just let that stuff go.

If it sounds terrible suggesting that I treat childred like animals, remember that the guy who is the current guru on this subject, John Lyons, also takes in foster kids, usually middle-or-high-school boys, and uses variations of this idea with them, with some very good results.

As kids get older, there are different ways to give them that "instant feedback", which may or may not be spanking -- I think it depends on the kid's temperment. But when they're little, they just don't understand reasoning or consequences yet.


----------



## thardey

Oh, yeah, the above process is for when they are willfully testing you. If they simply aren't paying attention, then a quick "Pop" (noise more than pain) is all you need.


----------



## Bigshadow

thardey said:


> I have a 6 month old son, and my wife and I are deciding how to discipline, and how to be consistent about it, which we believe is extremely important. A lot of it will have to depend on his personality as it develops.



Consistency is very important!  But I don't want to get side tracked from the OP.


----------



## Sukerkin

CTKempo Todd said:


> Thanks for letting me rant and remember these are just my views and I make no judgements on anyone else.


 

You may feel secure in the knowledge that you are certainly not a lonely voice in the wind on this one .  I have made substantially similar points a few times ... anyone want a time-share on a soapbox :lol:.


----------



## CTKempo Todd

thardey said:


> I have a 6 month old son, and my wife and I are deciding how to discipline, and how to be consistent about it, which we believe is extremely important. A lot of it will have to depend on his personality as it develops.
> 
> I have, however been around horses for all of my life, and I grew up in the new "Horse Whisperer" type of mentality. For those who don't know, it's against the idea of "Breaking" a horse's spirit, but instead tries to gain the trust and loyalty of the horse, so that it wants to please you. Instead of a master/slave type of relationship, you want a rider/friend type of relationship.
> 
> Something that I learned from that regarding physical force as punishment is that horses can take a lot before they submit, and if you rely on that with a strong-willed horse, then you have to always increase the pain to keep the horse obedient. You have to get harsher bits, meaner spurs, and more and more contraptions to keep the horse in check. This is a bad tack to take. (Whoops, no pun intended).
> 
> Instead horses hate to be left out of the herd, that's a more effective punishment for them -- to feed them last, or to cut short a training time and put them in a stall while you are paying attention to a different horse, etc. But if you just ignore them, they never learn what they did wrong.
> 
> So, with horses, (and my current plan is to try this with my son, since we're ultimately herd animals ourselves), when they do something wrong, you have to let them know right away that you are displeased. Often this is a quick pop on the neck, or making noise, or sometimes even just waving your hand at their face, but it never is painful or degrading, it's just an instant message that you are unhappy.
> 
> 
> 
> Then, after that is when you administer whatever actual punishment is appropriate (for horses, a "time out" works very well). You HAVE to be firm, or the horse learns that you can be manipulated. After the punishment period, you then HAVE to take the time and re-unite with the horse, to "let them back into your herd".
> 
> In this way, the horse learns that 1.) What behaviors are appropriate or not, 2.) That you can't be manipulated, and 3.) Even if you are upset, the horse still has your unconditional acceptance in your life not based on performance.
> 
> It's a time consuming process, and it's a pain when they test you right as you are about to leave for work, and you have to go through the whole process, but horses are too big and dangerous to just let that stuff go.
> 
> If it sounds terrible suggesting that I treat childred like animals, remember that the guy who is the current guru on this subject, John Lyons, also takes in foster kids, usually middle-or-high-school boys, and uses variations of this idea with them, with some very good results.
> 
> As kids get older, there are different ways to give them that "instant feedback", which may or may not be spanking -- I think it depends on the kid's temperment. But when they're little, they just don't understand reasoning or consequences yet.


 
No disrespect intended here but get back to me when you're son is about 7 and spits on his friend's mom after you've alreadty told him once to stop. Then "whisper" into his ear that he will get time out if he does it again...LOL

Sorry man..I couldn't resist. Sincerely though,  congratulations and best of luck with the new family.


----------



## Bigshadow

CTKempo Todd said:


> (This is how I was brought up and my parents did a damm good job if I do say so myself LOL)



I really don't disagree with you at all.  However, I did want to say this...  Just because my parents did something and I turned out OK, doesn't necessarily mean what they did was the best way to achieve that end.  I firmly believe that each generation should strive to do things better than the one before.  So I tried to improve upon what my parents did tempered with my own experience as a child.  Sometimes, parents teach us what NOT to do, rather than what TO do.



CTKempo Todd said:


> In my opinion we are raising kids from a very early age in a consequence free environment. This is translating to having a bunch of punks as teenagers who cannot have anything done to them because again there are no consequences (starting when they were little). Remember when you walked up to a Police office or a Firemen and you had amazing respect and admiration for them? Remember how you would not DARE raise your voice to your mother because you were afraid of CONSEQUENCES..



Great points!  



CTKempo Todd said:


> Nowadays there is none of that..Kids never hear the word NO..they get everything they want..People stand in line at 2 AM and fight over toys at Christmas because it is now the PARENTS fearing the consequences if the child does not get what they want.



That is simply not true!  I just don't buy that rationale.  People don't go and do that because they FEAR consequences (well some might, but not anyone I know).  I, like many parents want to give their children the best they can provide!  They want their children to enjoy their childhood and yes, they are still taught choices and consequences.  I want my child to have a BETTER childhood than I had.  Just because computer games were not invented when I was 12 years old, doesn't mean I am going to supress that from my son.  Now, I wouldn't wait in line at 2AM but I know parents that did and I can tell you for a fact, that it WASN'T out of fear of consequences, it was because they loved their child and wanted to surprise them with a christmas gift or birthday gift.  





CTKempo Todd said:


> Now if they misbehave they get a 'time out' (what is this a sports contest!!) or get sent to a room packed with TVs and video games.



I don't know about that 'Time out' thing, somehow, after about age 3, I don't think that it is very effective (if at all), just my opinion, being that I never used it.  I don't know about alot of parents, but if my son was sent to his room, his games and TV came OUT.  Pretty simple eh!  There are other ways of dealing with them too, not just sending them to their room. LOL



CTKempo Todd said:


> I also agree with positive reinforcement as well. That is a very good tool.



Very true!



CTKempo Todd said:


> Kids are a running the show these days and parents are no longer parents.




My grandfather (may he rest in peace) said those very words, when I was just a little boy.


----------



## CTKempo Todd

Bigshadow said:


> I really don't disagree with you at all. However, I did want to say this... Just because my parents did something and I turned out OK, doesn't necessarily mean what they did was the best way to achieve that end. I firmly believe that each generation should strive to do things better than the one before. So I tried to improve upon what my parents did tempered with my own experience as a child. Sometimes, parents teach us what NOT to do, rather than what TO do.
> 
> 
> 
> Great points!
> 
> 
> 
> That is simply not true! I just don't buy that rationale. People don't go and do that because they FEAR consequences (well some might, but not anyone I know). I, like many parents want to give their children the best they can provide! They want their children to enjoy their childhood and yes, they are still taught choices and consequences. I want my child to have a BETTER childhood than I had. Just because computer games were not invented when I was 12 years old, doesn't mean I am going to supress that from my son. Now, I wouldn't wait in line at 2AM but I know parents that did and I can tell you for a fact, that it WASN'T out of fear of consequences, it was because they loved their child and wanted to surprise them with a christmas gift or birthday gift.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about that 'Time out' thing, somehow, after about age 3, I don't think that it is very effective (if at all), just my opinion, being that I never used it. I don't know about alot of parents, but if my son was sent to his room, his games and TV came OUT. Pretty simple eh! There are other ways of dealing with them too, not just sending them to their room. LOL
> 
> 
> 
> Very true!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My grandfather (may he rest in peace) said those very words, when I was just a little boy.


 

As far as doing things better than our parents..I don't simply don't think its happenning. The level of disrespect and disobedience is rampant in this country. Kids misbehave, don't get punished and don't care. 
Unfortunately parents who care are more and more becoming the minority..When I got wacked on the rear end by my father as a kid, believe me I deserved it and never repeated the offense. I rarely got spanked, but when I did..I always remembered what I did wrong.

I never said anything about supressing video games..I have no problem with them..Heck I still play them..
However with regard with these people that sit there and 2 Am in Walmart and your going to tell me it is because they love their children? What a front...I simply think its assinine..In my opinion it was the parents who were going to be made happy when the children opened their gift. Its like when a kid is whining and crying and misbehaving and the parents says..If you stop crying I'll buy you a toy...

How about teaching patience? My kids wanted a Nintendo Wii for Christmas..Of course I could not find one so I gave the kids the option..Wait until the were available and I could walk in and buy one or get something else..They decided to wait which I was very proud of there choice. They stuck to there guns about what they wanted but were willing to sacrifice and show patience which I was very proud of..A month and a half later, they were rewarded with a Wii. Did it ruin Christmas? OF COURSE NOT. They got plenty of gifts and had tons to play with and we were together as a family which is what Christmas is for...NOT get what I want WHEN I want it..

Agree about sending to their room...However neither of my daughters have a TV or Phone in their room..Of course mhy 13 year old wants it but its unnecessary. The kids have a separate room for a TV.

Fun topic and its all good.. At least we care!


----------



## Bigshadow

CTKempo Todd said:


> Unfortunately parents who care are more and more becoming the minority..



That certainly seems to be happening.  No doubt.



CTKempo Todd said:


> I never said anything about supressing video games..I have no problem with them..Heck I still play them..



I know you didn't.  I was just using that as an example.  I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.  Sorry if it seemed that way. 



CTKempo Todd said:


> However with regard with these people that sit there and 2 Am in Walmart and your going to tell me it is because they love their children? What a front...I simply think its assinine..In my opinion it was the parents who were going to be made happy when the children opened their gift. Its like when a kid is whining and crying and misbehaving and the parents says..If you stop crying I'll buy you a toy...



It isn't that cut and dried.  I know parents that waited in line, because they wanted to get it in time for christmas.  It wasn't because the child was pitching a tantrum for it.  In fact, the kids never knew they were getting them.  I personally think that is stupid to go wait in line.  In fact, I prefer shopping online whenever possible.




CTKempo Todd said:


> How about teaching patience? My kids wanted a Nintendo Wii for Christmas..Of course I could not find one so I gave the kids the option..Wait until the were available and I could walk in and buy one or get something else..They decided to wait which I was very proud of there choice. They stuck to there guns about what they wanted but were willing to sacrifice and show patience which I was very proud of..A month and a half later, they were rewarded with a Wii. Did it ruin Christmas? OF COURSE NOT. They got plenty of gifts and had tons to play with and we were together as a family which is what Christmas is for...NOT get what I want WHEN I want it..



The kids made a good choice, that is an important lesson.   However, if they don't know they are getting it and haven't asked for it, then they tend to be quite patient. LOL  But, yes, they must learn patience.  



CTKempo Todd said:


> Fun topic and its all good.. At least we care!




True!  These sorts of issues tend to be very fuzzy and it is difficult to put everyone in one box or the other, there is a spectrum of opinion from the polar opposites.  I think a good many folks fall somewhere in the middle, at least I try to be optimistic about the number, as it seems to be forever dwindling.


----------



## thardey

CTKempo Todd said:


> No disrespect intended here but get back to me when you're son is about 7 and spits on his friend's mom after you've alreadty told him once to stop. Then "whisper" into his ear that he will get time out if he does it again...LOL
> 
> Sorry man..I couldn't resist. Sincerely though,  congratulations and best of luck with the new family.




Whisper?????? At 7 he's still in range for a good "POP"!  And I don't know what we'll do for the "punishment" phase yet, I guess it will depend on what will affect him the most. I just know the "time out" works for most horses. When I was a kid, I loved to have time alone, but I got grounded from certain toys or pastimes instead.

I guess my point was that I don't intend to use the spanking itself as the punishment, just a primer for it. That's more or less how I was raised, and I never felt abused or belittled, or was pushed to violence because of it.

It's like the old Louisiana Mule Story: A farmer loaned his mule to his neighbor, telling him that it was the easiest mule to work with, and he'd do anything you asked him.
So the neighbor hook the mule up to his wagon and says "go". The mule just stood there. So he smacks it -- the mule just stood there. Tries all kinds of stuff -- the mule just stood there. Finally he gets the farmer, who grabs a 2x4 and whacks the mule right between the eyes. The mule stumbles, shakes it off, and stands back up. The neighbor was stunned. "I thought you said he'd do anything you asked!!!"
"He will, you just gotta get his attention first!"

But as far as the Original Topic goes, I learned that there was a difference between spanking and bullying, and I knew the difference the instant some of my friend's dads would come around. 

I saw that my Dad "administered" spankings because he was in control -- it was a stark contrast to some other dads I saw who threatened to spank in order to regain control -- does that make sense? I guess I could sense that they were on the verge of losing control of the situation, which made me want to push them over the edge, so to speak. 

Now I can instantly pick out  someone who uses force to bolster their own insecurities, and someone who is already secure, and the proper use of force flows naturally out of it. 

I lerned not to mess with the secure ones.


----------



## CTKempo Todd

thardey said:


> Whisper?????? At 7 he's still in range for a good "POP"! And I don't know what we'll do for the "punishment" phase yet, I guess it will depend on what will affect him the most. I just know the "time out" works for most horses. When I was a kid, I loved to have time alone, but I got grounded from certain toys or pastimes instead.
> 
> I guess my point was that I don't intend to use the spanking itself as the punishment, just a primer for it. That's more or less how I was raised, and I never felt abused or belittled, or was pushed to violence because of it.
> 
> It's like the old Louisiana Mule Story: A farmer loaned his mule to his neighbor, telling him that it was the easiest mule to work with, and he'd do anything you asked him.
> So the neighbor hook the mule up to his wagon and says "go". The mule just stood there. So he smacks it -- the mule just stood there. Tries all kinds of stuff -- the mule just stood there. Finally he gets the farmer, who grabs a 2x4 and whacks the mule right between the eyes. The mule stumbles, shakes it off, and stands back up. The neighbor was stunned. "I thought you said he'd do anything you asked!!!"
> "He will, you just gotta get his attention first!"
> 
> But as far as the Original Topic goes, I learned that there was a difference between spanking and bullying, and I knew the difference the instant some of my friend's dads would come around.
> 
> I saw that my Dad "administered" spankings because he was in control -- it was a stark contrast to some other dads I saw who threatened to spank in order to regain control -- does that make sense? I guess I could sense that they were on the verge of losing control of the situation, which made me want to push them over the edge, so to speak.
> 
> Now I can instantly pick out someone who uses force to bolster their own insecurities, and someone who is already secure, and the proper use of force flows naturally out of it.
> 
> I lerned not to mess with the secure ones.


 

I hear you bro...
I couldn't resist giving you a shot in the arm and agree with everything you said...and David as well for that matter...


----------



## thardey

CTKempo Todd said:


> I hear you bro...
> I couldn't resist giving you a shot in the arm and agree with everything you said...and David as well for that matter...



It's all good - I know I don't know what I'm doing yet, and my wife knows that better than anyone!


----------



## Bigshadow

If only children came with instruction manuals!


----------



## Em MacIntosh

I wonder if chuck norris ever spanked his kids?  I'm guessing he's dead against it.


----------



## RED

Em MacIntosh said:


> I wonder if chuck norris ever spanked his kids? I'm guessing he's dead against it.


 
Chuck Norris' kids come out fully developed adults that can bench press a truck.


----------



## Dave Leverich

I think it's the people who worry about what kind of discipline... that don't have the kids we worry about. The fact that you care about your children will come through, granted some will have much different approaches, I guess that's why we all come out so differently heh.

Myself, I've maybe spanked my kids 4-5 times ever (between both), and it's almost always as a very real consequence for not heeding direction into something that is dangerous or life threatening. 

Aka, the 4th time he ran into the street without looking and the car screeched to a stop.. if he didn't learn that lesson... well I'm not going there, but my first job is to protect my children. He looks now.

I do find that I tend to reason much more than I remember Dad doing, but it's hard to say as I'm on the other side of that fence now. Maybe I just glazed eyed those times as a kid.

I fully agree that everyone needs to learn that we have consequences for our actions, that you can't simply reason and explain your way out of every situation... Some things, have inescapable results. I do feel if _every_ time a parent deals with the child, it's simply explaining, the child will learn that basically you can talk your way out of any situation. Unfortunately, not true in this world.

Anyway, great points on both sides, I know that we all do our absolute best to make our children the best people we can figure out how to.

As far as being a martial artist and spanking... I think I have a better understanding of force and damage, and therefor spank MUCH more safely than someone without that physical understanding. Given, they are exceedingly rare moments. Call it a 'speed swat' if you will, sting but no damage, the entire intent is to break through to them (often that 'dad' voice is enough, in fact 99+% of the time it is).

Ramble ramble, great posts all.


----------



## Brother John

Dave Leverich said:


> I think it's the people who worry about what kind of discipline... that don't have the kids we worry about. *The fact that you care about your children will come through, granted some will have much different approaches, I guess that's why we all come out so differently* heh.
> 
> 
> As far as being a martial artist and spanking... I think I *have a better understanding of force and damage*, and therefor spank MUCH more safely than someone without that physical understanding. Given, they are exceedingly rare moments. Call it a 'speed swat' if you will, sting but no damage, the entire intent is to break through to them (*often that 'dad' voice is enough, in fact 99+% of the time it is*).
> 
> Ramble ramble, great posts all.


GREAT REPLY!!!!!!!!
Excellent points there Dave!
Thanks

Your Brother
John


----------

