# What would we do if the lights went out?



## Kong Soo Do

What would we do if the lights went out


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## seasoned

sorry I should have read the link first, no time at the present to get into any sort of comment about lights going out.


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## drop bear

Showers bite the worst for me. Lights. You get a torch, Food,you eat at the pub.

But cold showers suck.


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## Transk53

Has there been a tangible threat to the US power grid? I know Die Hard 4.0 was just a film, but if that could happen, would an open invitation to anarchy.


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## Kong Soo Do

drop bear said:


> Showers bite the worst for me. Lights. You get a torch, Food,you eat at the pub.
> 
> But cold showers suck.



And when the pub doesn't have power what's your plan?


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## Kong Soo Do

Transk53 said:


> Has there been a tangible threat to the US power grid?



You didn't follow the link.  There have been multiple successful attacks on the power grid, both physical and cyber.  The NSA warns that China has the capability to bring our entire grid down.

If it went down for just 10 days the death toll would be in the tens of millions.


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## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> And when the pub doesn't have power what's your plan?



Pub has a massive generator precisely to accommodate a power out.

Otherwise I am living off cans of stuff and rice. Mabye some damper. Muslie and powdered milk. Noodles. All gets real old real quick.

The big question to ask is how do you clean your house and clothes? Cant just go on like some sort of hermit. Especially if you are still trying to hold down a job.


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Has there been a tangible threat to the US power grid? I know Die Hard 4.0 was just a film, but if that could happen, would an open invitation to anarchy.



We potentially get smashed every year. Worst for me was cyclone ului that put my area out for three weeks. And I rolled up two days after it hit. So the trip to the hardware store was pretty funny when asking for survival gear.

I managed to get a metal bucket that I cooked out of using wood.


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## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> And when the pub doesn't have power what's your plan?





 

Ride my horse to the next one.


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## Transk53

Kong Soo Do said:


> You didn't follow the link.  There have been multiple successful attacks on the power grid, both physical and cyber.  The NSA warns that China has the capability to bring our entire grid down.
> 
> If it went down for just 10 days the death toll would be in the tens of millions.



Yeah I did, but was at work. I'll read it again when I have a moment. Pretty alarming though. Makes me wonder how many potential, or un reported threats have been made elsewhere.


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## Transk53

drop bear said:


> We potentially get smashed every year. Worst for me was cyclone ului that put my area out for three weeks. And I rolled up two days after it hit. So the trip to the hardware store was pretty funny when asking for survival gear.
> 
> I managed to get a metal bucket that I cooked out of using wood.



Must be quite disconcerting to say the least. A lot would be common sense I guess, but I wonder how many in the UK would be prepared in anyway. Best advice I have always heard is to keep a supply of candles and such like, but not a lot general public training, or thought.


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Must be quite disconcerting to say the least. A lot would be common sense I guess, but I wonder how many in the UK would be prepared in anyway. Best advice I have always heard is to keep a supply of candles and such like, but not a lot general public training, or thought.



Might be a case of people freezing to death up your way. Don't know if it gets that cold.

But yeah it is mostly the candles and such. A am fm radio is really usefull. No money if it is in the bank,no fuel, those sort of hick ups. Phones of couse die quick. Especially the fancy new ones.

It just depends how far you want to go with preparation for that kind of thing.

On the plus side we don't get a mad looting frenzy every time there is a black out.


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## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Might be a case of people freezing to death up your way. Don't know if it gets that cold.
> 
> But yeah it is mostly the candles and such. A am fm radio is really usefull. No money if it is in the bank,no fuel, those sort of hick ups. Phones of couse die quick. Especially the fancy new ones.
> 
> It just depends how far you want to go with preparation for that kind of thing.
> 
> On the plus side we don't get a mad looting frenzy every time there is a black out.



Where I am in the UK, there have been a couple of occasions where the electricity has gone off. Unless a person really looks into it, it does not tend to get reported. Where I work, although not for a while, we had a full black out. I would imagine with your weather patterns you would advance warning? In the UK that would be a concern to me in the sense that we do not really adverse conditions to have such things as real bad hurricanes and what not. If we had one of those act of god type situations, really don't the UK would be prepared at all. Probably obvious I suppose. Nice ride BTW.


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## Tez3

In the UK we would 'carry on' the same way we have for a couple of thousand years lol! We've got through things like the Blitz which didn't just happen in London as many think but all over the country, we've had a sustained bombing campaign by the IRA over decades ( that's not over btw, bit riot in Belfast last night...it's Marching Season), horrendous flooding etc we would do what we always do adapt and overcome while having a bit of a moan.


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## Transk53

Certainly do lol. Like still not giving enough money to flood areas that have been impacted. Yep, if we a had a big issue, the government would make like an Ostrich and wait for the next one to do something about it. Yep got to love this island and the incompetent morons that continuously run it


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Where I am in the UK, there have been a couple of occasions where the electricity has gone off. Unless a person really looks into it, it does not tend to get reported. Where I work, although not for a while, we had a full black out. I would imagine with your weather patterns you would advance warning? In the UK that would be a concern to me in the sense that we do not really adverse conditions to have such things as real bad hurricanes and what not. If we had one of those act of god type situations, really don't the UK would be prepared at all. Probably obvious I suppose. Nice ride BTW.



Thanks.

And I assume that is the point of the thread. To get people thinking about being prepared.


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## drop bear

Speaking of which I am having a little metho cooker test. A lot of my static night shifts have no amenities and I cant go long without coffee.

Pesto and chicken tonight.


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## drop bear

View attachment 19374 

Speaking of which I am having a little metho cooker test. A lot of my static night shifts have no amenities and I cant go long without coffee.

Pesto and chicken tonight.


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## drop bear

View attachment 19374 

Speaking of which I am having a little metho cooker test. A lot of my static night shifts have no amenities and I cant go long without coffee.

Pesto and chicken tonight.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Thanks.
> 
> And I assume that is the point of the thread. To get people thinking about being prepared.



Most people are far better prepared than is commonly thought, it's always assumed that mass panic would break out but studies have shown that in most situations people don't panic. In the UK few people are so highly dependent on electronics and motorisation that having to go without these things would cause a massive decline. During the last war Girl Guides set up field kitchens, taught people how to make fires and cook with anything. People grew their own food and managed without power and travelling. People here still talk about the 'Blitz spirit' you can see that happening when bombs go off here or a disaster happens. Film and television companies love the doomsday scenarios but research has shown that people can adapt to anything and do.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> View attachment 19374
> 
> Speaking of which I am having a little metho cooker test. A lot of my static night shifts have no amenities and I cant go long without coffee.
> 
> Pesto and chicken tonight.



Can you cook a pizza in a cardboard oven?


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Can you cook a pizza in a cardboard oven?



Not at three in the morning.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Not at three in the morning.




I can at any time, have done too.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> I can at any time, have done too.



Nice.

Of course from memory you are on an army base so lights out scenario is probably handled as well.


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## Transk53

Looks good


drop bear said:


> View attachment 19374
> 
> Speaking of which I am having a little metho cooker test. A lot of my static night shifts have no amenities and I cant go long without coffee.
> 
> Pesto and chicken tonight.



Looks good. Personally I don't chicken and pasta, prefer sea food. Chicken separate from the pesto, or come with it?


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Looks good
> 
> 
> Looks good. Personally I don't chicken and pasta, prefer sea food. Chicken separate from the pesto, or come with it?



Just a little can of chicken separate. Wasn't that great. Needed parmesan.

That stove by the way is a little ripper. Made from some sort of soft drink can. Runs on methylated spirits or similar.

I bought that but you can make them apparently pretty easily. Which hopefully puts us back on topic a bit. If you did get caught in a black out.


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## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> Most people are far better prepared than is commonly thought, it's always assumed that mass panic would break out but studies have shown that in most situations people don't panic. In the UK few people are so highly dependent on electronics and motorisation that having to go without these things would cause a massive decline. During the last war Girl Guides set up field kitchens, taught people how to make fires and cook with anything. People grew their own food and managed without power and travelling. People here still talk about the 'Blitz spirit' you can see that happening when bombs go off here or a disaster happens. Film and television companies love the doomsday scenarios but research has shown that people can adapt to anything and do.



Yeah, but the local allotment idea has gone the way of the dinosaur. At least down here anyway.


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## drop bear

Soda Can Stove How to Build

The destructions on how to build. I am going to give it a go next time I am out camping. Apparently it can be jimmied up with a multitool.


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## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Soda Can Stove How to Build
> 
> The destructions on how to build. I am going to give it a go next time I am out camping. Apparently it can be jimmied up with a multitool.



Great post. Would never have thought a fizzy drink would be up to the job. A bean tin yeah, but not that.


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## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Yeah, but the local allotment idea has gone the way of the dinosaur. At least down here anyway.



You don't need allotments you can grow most veggies and fruit in any old pot or can. You don't even need a garden.


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## Kong Soo Do

drop bear said:


> Pub has a massive generator precisely to accommodate a power out.
> 
> Otherwise I am living off cans of stuff and rice. Mabye some damper. Muslie and powdered milk. Noodles. All gets real old real quick.
> 
> The big question to ask is how do you clean your house and clothes? Cant just go on like some sort of hermit. Especially if you are still trying to hold down a job.



A generator is dependent on fuel.  If the grid were down, for any length of time you will be unable to resupply your fuel source because most folks don't know how to get it out of the pump without electricity.  But then cash/credit is useless without electricity anyway.  Unfortunately most people don't understand, or want to ignore what will actually happen.  Even if the grid went down for say just 10 days...


People will die in the first minute.  People on life support, surgery, dialysis and traffic accidents.
First responders will be unable to get to those in need because traffic lights are down.
First responders will be unable to respond to crimes happening, and they will.  See any 24 hour blackout that has happened in any city.
The grocery store shelves are empty in the first 3 hours by looting since you can't pay anyway, see Katrina.
Truckers, which still supply over 90% of goods will be unable to resupply stores...which aren't running anyway.
Prisons and jails will mass release since their own generators will soon run dry which dumps criminals enmass on the public...which is already going through riots and looting anyway.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  Do you have a supply of food and access to clean water (as it won't be coming out of the tap) for an extended period of time?  Do you know how to make water safe?  

Survival Emergency Preparedness Board - Water

Serious things to think about.


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## Kong Soo Do

Transk53 said:


> Yeah I did, but was at work. I'll read it again when I have a moment. Pretty alarming though. Makes me wonder how many potential, or un reported threats have been made elsewhere.



Yeah see that's the thing...how much goes unreported because they either don't want to alarm people or fix the problem.  Here's the deal, less that 10% of Americans are prepared for ANY sort of disaster....less than 10%!  That's pretty dismal.  When Sandy hit people were scalping a box of matches for $10.  In a national event paper money is worthless so you won't even be able to do that.  

The media portrays 'preppers' as a bunch of tinfoil-hat-wearing loonies that sit on a mountain of ammo and hunt zombies.  In reality most are simply normal folks that have a plan, some stored food and water and the means to protect themselves for a longer period of time than the 'me' or 'entitlement' generation.  

As with anything, there are a couple of options.  The first is to ignore the problem with the 'it won't happen to me' line of thinking.  The second is to realize the potential problem(s) and address means to prevent or mitigate the problem.

Here's a start:

What is a BOB GHB or EDC What goes in one And why the heck would I want one anyway


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## Xue Sheng

> What would we do if the lights went out?



Light candles, break out the camp stove, put as much ice and perishable food in the cooler if it went on to long... not go to work....so you see there is an upside to this


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## Transk53

Kong Soo Do said:


> Yeah see that's the thing...how much goes unreported because they either don't want to alarm people or fix the problem.  Here's the deal, less that 10% of Americans are prepared for ANY sort of disaster....less than 10%!  That's pretty dismal.  When Sandy hit people were scalping a box of matches for $10.  In a national event paper money is worthless so you won't even be able to do that.
> 
> *The media portrays 'preppers' as a bunch of tinfoil-hat-wearing loonies that sit on a mountain of ammo and hunt zombies.*  In reality most are simply normal folks that have a plan, some stored food and water and the means to protect themselves for a longer period of time than the 'me' or 'entitlement' generation.
> 
> As with anything, there are a couple of options.  The first is to ignore the problem with the 'it won't happen to me' line of thinking.  The second is to realize the potential problem(s) and address means to prevent or mitigate the problem.
> 
> Here's a start:
> 
> What is a BOB GHB or EDC What goes in one And why the heck would I want one anyway




That would be GTA and now CoD Zombies lol. The lifestraw looks intriguing as a piece of kit. The blanket though I'm sure in certain circumstances is now recommended, but not sure where I heard that. Hopefully I can remember. Very good info BTW.


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## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> A generator is dependent on fuel.  If the grid were down, for any length of time you will be unable to resupply your fuel source because most folks don't know how to get it out of the pump without electricity.  But then cash/credit is useless without electricity anyway.  Unfortunately most people don't understand, or want to ignore what will actually happen.  Even if the grid went down for say just 10 days...
> 
> 
> People will die in the first minute.  People on life support, surgery, dialysis and traffic accidents.
> First responders will be unable to get to those in need because traffic lights are down.
> First responders will be unable to respond to crimes happening, and they will.  See any 24 hour blackout that has happened in any city.
> The grocery store shelves are empty in the first 3 hours by looting since you can't pay anyway, see Katrina.
> Truckers, which still supply over 90% of goods will be unable to resupply stores...which aren't running anyway.
> Prisons and jails will mass release since their own generators will soon run dry which dumps criminals enmass on the public...which is already going through riots and looting anyway.
> And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  Do you have a supply of food and access to clean water (as it won't be coming out of the tap) for an extended period of time?  Do you know how to make water safe?
> 
> Survival Emergency Preparedness Board - Water
> 
> Serious things to think about.



Different country. We didn't get mass looting last disaster. We got mass cleaning.

Politicians are made or broken on their ability to handle a disaster. It is just one of the big things we seem to care about.

But otherwise yes you should store some food and water. Have some cash spare and drive with your fuel tank full.


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> That would be GTA and now CoD Zombies lol. The lifestraw looks intriguing as a piece of kit. The blanket though I'm sure in certain circumstances is now recommended, but not sure where I heard that. Hopefully I can remember. Very good info BTW.



I have a life straw. The issue is you cant filter water into a bottle and take it with you. Unless you suck and spit.

I believe the Sawyer filters are the in thing.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Nice.
> 
> Of course from memory you are on an army base so lights out scenario is probably handled as well.



I'm not on an army base, I live near one, I live in a very rural area but my skills on survival come from good old fashioned Guiding.


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## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> First responders will be unable to get to those in need because traffic lights are down.



That I find ridiculous, do you mean to say that people can't drive when there's no traffic lights?


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## EddieCyrax

drop bear said:


> Different country. We didn't get mass looting last disaster. We got mass cleaning.
> 
> Politicians are made or broken on their ability to handle a disaster. It is just one of the big things we seem to care about.
> 
> But otherwise yes you should store some food and water. Have some cash spare and drive with your fuel tank full.




And 3000 rounds of ammo.....HA HA HA  (kidding.....ha ha ha)


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## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> Can you cook a pizza in a cardboard oven?



Apparently you can but it takes about an hour

Pizza in a solar oven


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## Dirty Dog

Xue Sheng said:


> Apparently you can but it takes about an hour
> 
> Pizza in a solar oven



Real Men (tm) would just eat it raw.


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## Xue Sheng

Kong Soo Do said:


> Prisons and jails will mass release since their own generators will soon run dry which dumps criminals enmass on the public...which is already going through riots and .


That would depend entirely on how the prison is locked, and many still use a key


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## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> Apparently you can but it takes about an hour
> 
> Pizza in a solar oven



It's easier than that, cover a cardboard box inside and out in silver foil ( or whatever you call it, the cooking stuff made of aluminium lol) put a little tray in it made of wire and put it over the campfire, cooks easily. We did it with the Guides on camp a few weeks ago, you can also cook s'mores at the same time lol for 'dessert'. I can cook most things on an open fire ( as well as other ways of cooking) including baking cakes. I can build my own kitchen including implements, tables and chairs as well as light a fire without matches or a lighter. I can purify water ( did that with the Brownies last week), catch, kill and skin small animals, grow veggies and build a bivvy if necessary.  
However I'm not really fussed about 'surviving' the 'doomsday' thing, if it's your time to go it's your time, I see little point in stressing about it, getting the blood pressure up and dropping dead from worry lol.


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## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> Real Men (tm) would just eat it raw.



I am not a real man thankfully......


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## Dirty Dog

Kong Soo Do said:


> People will die in the first minute.  People on life support, surgery, dialysis and traffic accidents.




Not true. Ventilators have backup batteries, for one thing. Hospitals (and dialysis centers) have backup generators.



Kong Soo Do said:


> First responders will be unable to get to those in need because traffic lights are down.




If there's some sort of generalized disaster, they don't need to travel. They can walk 5 feet and deal with what's right there, instead of driving across town. 
And of course, most people can manage just fine without traffic lights.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Prisons and jails will mass release since their own generators will soon run dry which dumps criminals enmass on the public...which is already going through riots and looting anyway.




Locks that require power to remain locked are a stupid idea and cost a lot more than locks that only require power to unlock, or that require power only to change state. Can you provide us with a source that supports the allegation that jails (the ones not using mechanical keys...) are using the less secure and more expensive option?


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## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> It's easier than that, cover a cardboard box inside and out in silver foil ( or whatever you call it, the cooking stuff made of aluminium lol) put a little tray in it made of wire and put it over the campfire, cooks easily. We did it with the Guides on camp a few weeks ago, you can also cook s'mores at the same time lol for 'dessert'. I can cook most things on an open fire ( as well as other ways of cooking) including baking cakes. I can build my own kitchen including implements, tables and chairs as well as light a fire without matches or a lighter. I can purify water ( did that with the Brownies last week), catch, kill and skin small animals, grow veggies and build a bivvy if necessary.
> However I'm not really fussed about 'surviving' the 'doomsday' thing, if it's your time to go it's your time, I see little point in stressing about it, getting the blood pressure up and dropping dead from worry lol.



Impressive.

I am not stressing either


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## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> Impressive.
> 
> I am not stressing either




I'm a Guider! We are always prepared! Take the challenge.... http://www.glasgowsouthseniorsection.org.uk/I'm A Survivor Challenge Badge.pdf


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## Dirty Dog

EddieCyrax said:


> And 3000 rounds of ammo.....HA HA HA  (kidding.....ha ha ha)



Doomsday preppers will tell you flat out that 3000 rounds isn't anywhere near enough.
Sue and I shoot 300-400 rounds a week at the range. At any given point in time, there's probably 400-500 rounds of defensive ammo (mostly Hornady Critical Defense) and 3000-5000 rounds of target ammo in the house, because I buy it in bulk, on sale, for each of the calibers we shoot.
From what I gather, hardcore preppers will have lots more than me.


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## Tez3

I bet those 'hard-core preppers' are so busy preparing they forget to live their lives now.  it's not the quantity of life that matters it's the quality.


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## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> I bet those 'hard-core preppers' are so busy preparing they forget to live their lives now.  it's not the quantity of life that matters it's the quality.



Or actually have a decent aim at minimum. Guess it is one of the same.


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## Dirty Dog

OK, so I did a little google-fu, and it seems that prepper sites recommend anything from 1000 rounds per caliber to 1000 rounds per gun, to "fill your house, dig a basement, fill that, now start on the bomb shelter and fill that..."

I tend to order ammo 1000 rounds at a time, when it's on sale. I just checked and I have:
Target ammo:
9mm - 1800 rounds (this is what we shoot the most)
.45 ACP - 800 rounds
.380 ACP - 400 rounds (this is what we shoot the least)

So about 6-8 trips to the range.

Defensive ammo:
9mm - 250 rounds
.45 ACP - 100 rounds
.380 ACP - 50 rounds

So by "prepper" standards, I'm OK for 9mm at the lowest recommended level, but not if it's "1000 per gun". Otherwise, I apparently need more.
I suspect I'll stick with my current habits, though.
If I went with "1000 rounds per gun", I'd need a place to store about 12,000 rounds...


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Or actually have a decent aim at minimum. Guess it is one of the same.



I think when you can carry a gun that can spit out lots of bullets. You wind up needing lots of bullets.

Anything for our way would be a shot gun or something. And you would get away with 20 rounds.


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## Transk53

drop bear said:


> I think when you can carry a gun that can spit out lots of bullets. You wind up needing lots of bullets.
> 
> Anything for our way would be a shot gun or something. And you would get away with 20 rounds.



Would a shotgun defend against a Crocodile? Just wondering about that kind of thing, as over here no such type of wildlife.


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Would a shotgun defend against a Crocodile? Just wondering about that kind of thing, as over here no such type of wildlife.



Yes and no. Crocodiles don't chase you. They spring out from nowhere and just sort of bite you in half.

So if you saw it to shoot it. It probably wasn't attacking you.

Otherwise should the mad max apocalypse kick off and I jump on my klr and head into the wasteland. There are animals that may need shooting.

Mostly these are big domestic ones turned feral. Dogs cows pigs buffalo camel.


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## drop bear

Apparently these are legal in Australia.


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## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Apparently these are legal in Australia.



Personally I would want a clip in there. Would be tricky if needing to fire on the move or in quick succession. Well I assume so anyways.


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## Xue Sheng

Tez3 said:


> I'm a Guider! We are always prepared! Take the challenge.... http://www.glasgowsouthseniorsection.org.uk/I'm A Survivor Challenge Badge.pdf



Looks good but that would be an over 3000 mile commute


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## EddieCyrax

Dirty Dog said:


> OK, so I did a little google-fu, and it seems that prepper sites recommend anything from 1000 rounds per caliber to 1000 rounds per gun, to "fill your house, dig a basement, fill that, now start on the bomb shelter and fill that..."
> 
> I tend to order ammo 1000 rounds at a time, when it's on sale. I just checked and I have:
> Target ammo:
> 9mm - 1800 rounds (this is what we shoot the most)
> .45 ACP - 800 rounds
> .380 ACP - 400 rounds (this is what we shoot the least)
> 
> So about 6-8 trips to the range.
> 
> Defensive ammo:
> 9mm - 250 rounds
> .45 ACP - 100 rounds
> .380 ACP - 50 rounds
> 
> So by "prepper" standards, I'm OK for 9mm at the lowest recommended level, but not if it's "1000 per gun". Otherwise, I apparently need more.
> I suspect I'll stick with my current habits, though.
> If I went with "1000 rounds per gun", I'd need a place to store about 12,000 rounds...



From what I have read the 1000 per gun is not your practice stock, but rather your storage inventory.  If in a survival situation you more than likely are not going to the range, but rather using the ammo for other reasons.....hunting/defense.....


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## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> That I find ridiculous, do you mean to say that people can't drive when there's no traffic lights?



This depends on the location we're talking about.  In a small, rural town it may not be that big of an issue.  In a large city, imagine no working lights and the accidents it would cause.  I'm in L.E. and I can tell you when a good storm comes through and knocks out all the power in the area, and there area lot of of accidents, first responder resources are stretched beyond capacity.  Now let's multiple that.  Response times will be that much slower, if at all.  At some point the fuel runs out.  Many municiple/county/state resource may be able to continue longer IF the fuel sources are backed up by generator.  Not all are backed up.  And of those that are, the capabilities are limited to the available fuel supply which won't be resupplied in a timely manner in a wide-spread event.


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## Kong Soo Do

Xue Sheng said:


> That would depend entirely on how the prison is locked, and many still use a key



The issue isn't how the cells are locked, rather it is a matter of feeding the inmate population.  The food that needs to be cooked can't be unless they have a non-electrical source.  Secondly  the food stock needs to be resupplied at some point in the VERY near future, depending on the size of the facility.  And we need to consider the staff that is on hand at the time of an event.  What if relief shifts aren't forthcoming due to being unable to travel due to conditions?  At some point the 'system' breaks down.  What do you do?  Leave them in the cells to die?  Release them on an already panicked public?  No good choices.


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## Transk53

Kong Soo Do said:


> The issue isn't how the cells are locked, rather it is a matter of feeding the inmate population.  The food that needs to be cooked can't be unless they have a non-electrical source.  Secondly  the food stock needs to be resupplied at some point in the VERY near future, depending on the size of the facility.  And we need to consider the staff that is on hand at the time of an event.  What if relief shifts aren't forthcoming due to being unable to travel due to conditions?  At some point the 'system' breaks down.  What do you do?  Leave them in the cells to die?  Release them on an already panicked public?  No good choices.



Especially if you have the scnario like in the Christian Bale Batman movie were the avarage prisioner was a nut job. I would imagine a good few public would make like an ostrich and not even entertain the idea. Pretend it is not there until seen type of thing. I guess the moral thing to do with a prison full of nonces, rapists and murderers would be to pump the prison full of sleeping gas in the event of a cataclysmic event.


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## Xue Sheng

Kong Soo Do said:


> The issue isn't how the cells are locked, rather it is a matter of feeding the inmate population.  The food that needs to be cooked can't be unless they have a non-electrical source.  Secondly  the food stock needs to be resupplied at some point in the VERY near future, depending on the size of the facility.  And we need to consider the staff that is on hand at the time of an event.  What if relief shifts aren't forthcoming due to being unable to travel due to conditions?  At some point the 'system' breaks down.  What do you do?  Leave them in the cells to die?  Release them on an already panicked public?  No good choices.



Many cook with gas. Can't talk for all states but here there is a rather large stock pile and they eat better than most of the general public. Besides, where is the logic, based on your previous post, that makes it better to release a lot of violent felons that you can't feed, into a world that can't find food. And I am also fairly certain there are more than 2 options.

And we can go back and forth with this until doomsday and I am pretty sure you will not convince me that what you are claiming will happen, would actually happen and I doubt I will be able to change your mind to my side of it either


----------



## oftheherd1

Dirty Dog said:


> Not true. Ventilators have backup batteries, for one thing. Hospitals (and dialysis centers) have backup generators.
> 
> If there's some sort of generalized disaster, they don't need to travel. They can walk 5 feet and deal with what's right there, instead of driving across town.
> And of course, most people can manage just fine without traffic lights.
> 
> Locks that require power to remain locked are a stupid idea and cost a lot more than locks that only require power to unlock, or that require power only to change state. Can you provide us with a source that supports the allegation that jails (the ones not using mechanical keys...) are using the less secure and more expensive option?



Ventilators have  backup for sure.  I don't know how long they last or what your supply of them is, but in the initial scenario, electricity isn't likely to come back soon.  We had that happen a few years ago due to a very large snow fall.  Something you are more prepared for where you are.  But here, snow and ice knocked out power which didn't come back for about 3 days.  Gas stations couldn't sell gas without electricity.  Didn't matter, but they couldn't be resupplied for a while either due to the roads being blocked.  Luckily houses stay warmer that one might think without heating, so we just dressed warmer and put on extra blankets at night.

I agree with your statement on many injured coming to the hospitals.  But will you not want to reach out further if you can?  As I am sure you know, during mass casualties, all bets on standards of care disappear, but you would still like to get as many as possible to the hospital for whatever treatments you can provide.

And as an aside on not needing traffic lights, I totally agree!  At least that is the way it is where I live, even when we have them.  

As to locks, I agree that from the standpoint of security, you don't want locks that failsafe open.  But it might be interesting to check with your safety officer and see what the law is in Colorado on prisoners being able to save themselves in a disaster, and let us know.  I don't expect most prisons would like the general public to know which they use.


----------



## Dirty Dog

oftheherd1 said:


> Ventilators have  backup for sure.  I don't know how long they last or what your supply of them is, but in the initial scenario, electricity isn't likely to come back soon.  We had that happen a few years ago due to a very large snow fall.  Something you are more prepared for where you are.  But here, snow and ice knocked out power which didn't come back for about 3 days.  Gas stations couldn't sell gas without electricity.  Didn't matter, but they couldn't be resupplied for a while either due to the roads being blocked.  Luckily houses stay warmer that one might think without heating, so we just dressed warmer and put on extra blankets at night.
> 
> I agree with your statement on many injured coming to the hospitals.  But will you not want to reach out further if you can?  As I am sure you know, during mass casualties, all bets on standards of care disappear, but you would still like to get as many as possible to the hospital for whatever treatments you can provide.
> 
> And as an aside on not needing traffic lights, I totally agree!  At least that is the way it is where I live, even when we have them.
> 
> As to locks, I agree that from the standpoint of security, you don't want locks that failsafe open.  But it might be interesting to check with your safety officer and see what the law is in Colorado on prisoners being able to save themselves in a disaster, and let us know.  I don't expect most prisons would like the general public to know which they use.



The point was that life support was used to support the claim that people would "die in the first minute" which is simply untrue. 




Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


----------



## oftheherd1

Dirty Dog said:


> The point was that life support was used to support the claim that people would "die in the first minute" which is simply untrue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.



Ah, I missed that, no that wouldn't cause deaths in the first minute.  Sorry.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Xue Sheng said:


> Many cook with gas.



Sure.  But if the gas supply can't be resupplied you have an issue.  



> Can't talk for all states but here there is a rather large stock pile and they eat better than most of the general public.



What large stockpile is this?  I've been with a large Sheriff's Office for 24 years now.  Most S.O.'s have three main Bureaus which are patrol, courts and jail.  I've experience with all three.  Our jail (5th largest in the state and larger than most prisons) has less than a week of food for the inmate population and is resupplied on a daily basis in one form or another.  Some will have emergency rations, but again that doesn't last that long.  

And none of that touches on staff shortages, which is a major issue.



> Besides, where is the logic, based on your previous post, that makes it better to release a lot of violent felons that you can't feed, into a world that can't find food.



Didn't say it was 'better'.  I said there were two options based upon a scenario where food can't be resupplied and there are major staff shortages:  let them die or release them.



Xue Sheng said:


> And I am also fairly certain there are more than 2 options



Okay, what's your additional options?



Xue Sheng said:


> And we can go back and forth with this until doomsday and I am pretty sure you will not convince me that what you are claiming will happen, would actually happen...



Not convince you a grid down situation could happen?  It already has, multiple times.  Have we had physical attacks on power stations?  Yes.  Has the power grid been cyber attacked?  Multiple times.  Does the NSA maintain that China can shut the grid down?  Yes they have.  Can a 'Carrington' event trash our grid?  It caused quite a mess in the past and that was before the 'grid' was as large as it is today.  Does a nuclear detonation cause an EMP?  Of course it does.  Are there nuclear weapons unaccounted for in the world?  Yes, an alarming number.  Can a terrorist organization get there hands on one?  Be naive to believe they can't...if they haven't already.  

So 'grid down' events have already happened, multiple times of varying scales of severity.  The very real possibility exists, according to our own government, that these things can/will happen again and on a larger scale.  

Basically, I live in Florida so I prepare for the possibility of a hurricane since they exist and have happened before.  I also prepare for a grid down event, be it local, regional or national since it has happened and can happen again and on an even larger scale.  Doesn't mean sitting in a bunker on top of a pile of ammo.  It means being properly prepared, to a realistic and rationale extent for if it happens


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Dirty Dog said:


> The point was that life support was used to support the claim that people would "die in the first minute" which is simply untrue.
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.



Depends upon the cause.  A storm that knocks out power for a day and you're okay.  A Carrington event and you're not okay.  A back up generator is fine as long as it works and it has fuel.  Take away those two requirements and my statement is true.  

And on a side note, many of the components for our grid are no longer made here in the U.S., they are now made in China.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Kong Soo Do said:


> Depends upon the cause.  A storm that knocks out power for a day and you're okay.  A Carrington event and you're not okay.  A back up generator is fine as long as it works and it has fuel.  Take away those two requirements and my statement is true.
> 
> And on a side note, many of the components for our grid are no longer made here in the U.S., they are now made in China.



So your statement is true, but not in the real world. 
Got it. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Kong Soo Do said:


> Not convince you a grid down situation could happen?  It already has, multiple times.  Have we had physical attacks on power stations?  Yes.  Has the power grid been cyber attacked?  Multiple times.  Does the NSA maintain that China can shut the grid down?  Yes they have.  Can a 'Carrington' event trash our grid?  It caused quite a mess in the past and that was before the 'grid' was as large as it is today.  Does a nuclear detonation cause an EMP?  Of course it does.  Are there nuclear weapons unaccounted for in the world?  Yes, an alarming number.  Can a terrorist organization get there hands on one?  Be naive to believe they can't...if they haven't already.
> 
> So 'grid down' events have already happened, multiple times of varying scales of severity.  The very real possibility exists, according to our own government, that these things can/will happen again and on a larger scale.
> 
> Basically, I live in Florida so I prepare for the possibility of a hurricane since they exist and have happened before.  I also prepare for a grid down event, be it local, regional or national since it has happened and can happen again and on an even larger scale.  Doesn't mean sitting in a bunker on top of a pile of ammo.  It means being properly prepared, to a realistic and rationale extent for if it happens



I know the grid has gone down, did all you predict happen......

Focus on what I am saying and please do not try and redirect to sound right. I do not agree with your doom and gloom scenario that you put forth for when the grid goes down. And to clarify, for the last time, I seriously doubt anything I say will change your POV on this and I know nothing you will say will change mine so this is pointless.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Dirty Dog said:


> So your statement is true, but not in the real world.
> Got it.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.



Hmmm, so the Carrington event didn't happen in the real world?  So the NSA director didn't make his comments about China in the real world?  So we've never been cyber attacked in the real world?  So an EMP can't happen in the real world.  Our grid hasn't been physically attacked in the real world?

My question is what color is the sky in your 'real' world?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Xue Sheng said:


> I know the grid has gone down, did all you predict happen......



That 'I' predict?  Just going by the research provided and the concerns of elements of the government involved with these sorts of things.

And if your mind can't be changed, why clutter the thread?  Leave the thread for those with an actual interest.


----------



## Xue Sheng

The thread is interesting, I am just not interested what you are saying, and you are not the post so..... I am however interested in a logical/professional discussion on the topic not doom and gloom based on some internet research with a dash of extremism thrown in. I worked in hospital and I worked for government offices and was involved in disaster recovery and some emergency management and such....you have a nice day


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Xue Sheng said:


> The thread is interesting, I am just not interested what you are saying, and you are not the post so..... I am however interested in a logical/professional discussion on the topic not doom and gloom based on some internet research with a dash of extremism thrown in. I worked in hospital and I worked for government offices and was involved in disaster recovery and some emergency management and such....you have a nice day



Well I'm glad you find the thread interesting.  You don't have to be interested in my viewpoint on the topic, however, I'm not passing on 'internet research'.  Apparently you haven't looked at the material in the OP.  Unless you're saying the NSA director is passing on 'internet research' or the other government officials are passing along 'internet research'?  I've also worked in hospitals and I currently work for government (county but it has been federal) and I deal with disaster and emergency preparedness on a daily basis.  If you don't wish to believe that things that have happened on a local/regional scale can happen on a national scale that is your prerogative.  

I prefer to accept that if it's happened before it can happen again, and if it's happened on a regional basis then it could happen on a national basis.  That is after researching those in the industry as well as government officials associate with the topic.  And I prefer to be as prepared as is realistically and sensibly possible in the advent that it occurs.  

And you also have a nice day.  And a safe one as well.


----------



## ChrisN

Knowing a chap who makes jerked meat
I know how too, and have skinned dear, took off all the meat and cure the skin. I will say if you can do that to a dear most animals can be done. 
Have basic bush craft skills. Easy enough making a fire with really basic stuff Have an good idea of what’s edible and what’s not.  I’m good enough with a bow and traps to take down game. Have very good first aid skills and the wife is ex-military. 

Just looking after myself and mine, I think I would be ok.

The real question is would I be able to handle the real threat? I think the real threat is from other people?  The best way to stay safe is to be in a group. But the more people the bigger the possible threat to you and so on..


----------



## Dirty Dog

Kong Soo Do said:


> Hmmm, so the Carrington event didn't happen in the real world?  So the NSA director didn't make his comments about China in the real world?  So we've never been cyber attacked in the real world?  So an EMP can't happen in the real world.  Our grid hasn't been physically attacked in the real world?
> 
> My question is what color is the sky in your 'real' world?



Its blue, of course. 
That's why, in my world, your statements are nonsense. 
Because despite your End Of The World fears, none of the things you claim happened. 
People on life support didn't die, despite your claims. 
Traffic lights failing didn't immobilize the world, despite your claims. 
Prisons neither killed not released their inmates, despite your claims. 

You then tried to backpedal and claim that your statement was true 'if you didn't have batteries and generators' which is silly since in the real world, we DO have those things. 

Feel free to huddle in your Secret Underground Lair with 10 years of MREs. 

I'll stay out here in the sunshine and ask the nice server to bring me something from the bar. And maybe a nice grilled steak. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> Okay, what's your additional options?



If I was a criminal and I wasn't evacuated I would sue.


----------



## drop bear

And then I thought to myself. This has to have actually happened somewhere.

Power outage at Mississippi federal prison - The Washington Post


----------



## Transk53

Kong Soo Do said:


> That 'I' predict?  Just going by the research provided and the concerns of elements of the government involved with these sorts of things.
> 
> And if your mind can't be changed, why clutter the thread?  Leave the thread for those with an actual interest.



If this is true and not just scare mongering. Then again, would probably just happen.

_The electric power utilities involve 5,800 major power plants and 450,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines, monitored and controlled by a staggering mix of devices installed over decades — all of which would be vulnerable to an EMP attack.

There has also been startling expert testimony that North Korea (some say in collusion with and/or has shared with Iran) has been working on a Super-EMP Weapon, where it was said “In fact, almost certainly, North Korea now possesses a highly advanced third generation nuclear warhead that could destroy the United States with a single blow.” North Korea has already tested low-yield nuclear weapons, which is one of the signatures of a Super-EMP weapon — a very low explosive yield, just several kilotons because the weapon is converting the energy of the nuclear warhead into gamma rays.
_


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> And then I thought to myself. This has to have actually happened somewhere.
> 
> Power outage at Mississippi federal prison - The Washington Post



Sure there was one on the news more recent than that.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Dirty Dog said:


> Its blue, of course.
> That's why, in my world, your statements are nonsense.



You obviously haven't done much research and instead go your usual route of being a sarcastic **** with those you disagree with.  Odd, since you're suppose to be a moderator on a friendly discussion board.  



Dirty Dog said:


> Because despite your End Of The World fears, none of the things you claim happened.



I don't have end of the world fears, and never mentioned that I did.  Again, this is sarcastic idiocy on your part and inserting something into the conversation that was never there to cover your lack of civility.  And you may want to do something called research.  Specifically what happened in India when 100 million people lost there power a few years back.  Specifically what officials in our government project will happen if such an event happens here.  Specifically the docudrama Nat Geo did a couple of years ago in a scenario lasting only 10 days.  The death toll was millions in just 10 days.  This isn't 'my' predictions, I'm merely discussing what those involved in the topic have projected due to what has happened here in the U.S. in the past, what has happened in other countries recently and the capabilities that exist in the modern world that can adversely affect our power grid.  



Dirty Dog said:


> You then tried to backpedal and claim that your statement was true 'if you didn't have batteries and generators' which is silly since in the real world, we DO have those things.



You're not clearly understanding what I'm discussing.  And EMP, natural or man-made will knock out batteries and generators.  That is a fact.  It's not silly, it's physics.  It has happened in the past already and that is not silly, it's history.  And it is a serious concern to officials in our government and with good reason.  Secondly, if the grid is effected by an event that is non-EMP related then you will have batteries and back up generators.  However they are dependent on a fuel source to stay operational.  Take away that fuel source and they don't work.  Surely you must understand this?  If the grid is down the infrastructure will also be compromised.  This affects resupply of fuel sources.  



Dirty Dog said:


> Feel free to huddle in your Secret Underground Lair with 10 years of MREs.



Again this is just your being a sarcastic ****.  I suggest you abide by the 'friendly' code of the board or give up being a moderator.  It's very hypocritical of you to be a moderator and then quip with this sort of idiocy to those you disagree with.  Or, if you are unable to converse like an adult then excuse yourself from the thread.  

Btw, I don't have a secret underground lair...that's Batman.  And MRE's don't have a 10 year shelf life.


----------



## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> Looks good but that would be an over 3000 mile commute




No, it wouldn't be, you do it with your kids/nephews/nieces/whoever at home. It's a challenge you can do anywhere. Various Guiding groups issue challenges and sell badges for completing to raise money for funds, the challenges can be done by anyone though.


----------



## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> This depends on the location we're talking about.  In a small, rural town it may not be that big of an issue.  In a large city, imagine no working lights and the accidents it would cause.  I'm in L.E. and I can tell you when a good storm comes through and knocks out all the power in the area, and there area lot of of accidents, first responder resources are stretched beyond capacity.  Now let's multiple that.  Response times will be that much slower, if at all.  At some point the fuel runs out.  Many municiple/county/state resource may be able to continue longer IF the fuel sources are backed up by generator.  Not all are backed up.  And of those that are, the capabilities are limited to the available fuel supply which won't be resupplied in a timely manner in a wide-spread event.



Well maybe in your city life stops with traffic lights but not in the rest of the world. I've been in Manchester when the bombs went off, I've been in London when bombs went off, I've been in Belfast when the bombs went off and people don't react they way you think they are going to, the panic isn't widespread, people are a lot more sensible than is given credit for, this is backed up by research btw.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> Well maybe in your city life stops with traffic lights but not in the rest of the world. I've been in Manchester when the bombs went off, I've been in London when bombs went off, I've been in Belfast when the bombs went off and people don't react they way you think they are going to, the panic isn't widespread, people are a lot more sensible than is given credit for, this is backed up by research btw.



Tez, those are traumatic events to be sure, but they are localized and do not affect the infrastructure in a way that I'm talking about.  Katrina is an event that is more similar.  It was more regional than local and it did affect the infrastructure within that reason.  And people that were unprepared panicked.  There was looting, rioting and a whole host of unspeakable atrocities that people committed on each other.  

You're focused on traffic lights.  That is one small part of a larger equation.  My point is a loss of infrastructure on a wide spread basis.  This is why officials in the government are concerned.  What happened in India affected 100 million people and it wasn't a peaceful walk in the park.  And that did not have a long lasting duration.  

The point isn't to have a million rounds of ammo and live in a bunker.  The point is to have some food, water, medical supplies etc on hand so that you can sit out a 3 day event.  Or a week long event.  Or a month long event until the infrastructure can be restored to normalcy.  Is there the concern of a longer lasting event?  Yes.  That was one of the reasons for the Nat Geo docudrama.  Input from a variety of sources was utilized to project the possible outcomes of just a 10 day event.  Were they spot on?  I'd say they were conservative in their assessment.  Most people in our modern society have lost their self-reliant ability in favor of keeping up with the Kardasians or DWTS.  Do they know how to process clean drinking water?  Ask your friends if water stopped coming out of the tap how they'd disinfect the water of waterborne pathogens.  And where would they get the water to begin with.  What is their plan for thermoregulating core body temperature.  

In most any emergency situation the biggest killers, beyond immediate blunt force trauma, would be hypo/hyperthermia and dehydration.  So a little fore knowledge and preparation to prevent or mitigate those things are only prudent.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> Tez, those are traumatic events to be sure, but they are localized and do not affect the infrastructure in a way that I'm talking about.  Katrina is an event that is more similar.  It was more regional than local and it did affect the infrastructure within that reason.  And people that were unprepared panicked.  There was looting, rioting and a whole host of unspeakable atrocities that people committed on each other.
> 
> You're focused on traffic lights.  That is one small part of a larger equation.  My point is a loss of infrastructure on a wide spread basis.  This is why officials in the government are concerned.  What happened in India affected 100 million people and it wasn't a peaceful walk in the park.  And that did not have a long lasting duration.
> 
> The point isn't to have a million rounds of ammo and live in a bunker.  The point is to have some food, water, medical supplies etc on hand so that you can sit out a 3 day event.  Or a week long event.  Or a month long event until the infrastructure can be restored to normalcy.  Is there the concern of a longer lasting event?  Yes.  That was one of the reasons for the Nat Geo docudrama.  Input from a variety of sources was utilized to project the possible outcomes of just a 10 day event.  Were they spot on?  I'd say they were conservative in their assessment.  Most people in our modern society have lost their self-reliant ability in favor of keeping up with the Kardasians or DWTS.  Do they know how to process clean drinking water?  Ask your friends if water stopped coming out of the tap how they'd disinfect the water of waterborne pathogens.  And where would they get the water to begin with.  What is their plan for thermoregulating core body temperature.
> 
> In most any emergency situation the biggest killers, beyond immediate blunt force trauma, would be hypo/hyperthermia and dehydration.  So a little fore knowledge and preparation to prevent or mitigate those things are only prudent.



Potentially a different sell might be in order.

As a side note I recently found out that I know a guy who teaches survival.

Qld TV crew chased something different Whitsunday Times


----------



## drop bear

We have all been these government pushes to prepare.

Location Harden Up - Protecting Queensland


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> We have all been these government pushes to prepare.
> 
> Location Harden Up - Protecting Queensland



Very good initiative there. Still looks like a few are taking things for granted, or just don't care.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Very good initiative there. Still looks like a few are taking things for granted, or just don't care.



Yeah always happens.


----------



## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> Tez, those are traumatic events to be sure, but they are localized and do not affect the infrastructure in a way that I'm talking about.  Katrina is an event that is more similar.  It was more regional than local and it did affect the infrastructure within that reason.  And people that were unprepared panicked.  There was looting, rioting and a whole host of unspeakable atrocities that people committed on each other.
> 
> You're focused on traffic lights.  That is one small part of a larger equation.  My point is a loss of infrastructure on a wide spread basis.  This is why officials in the government are concerned.  What happened in India affected 100 million people and it wasn't a peaceful walk in the park.  And that did not have a long lasting duration.
> 
> The point isn't to have a million rounds of ammo and live in a bunker.  The point is to have some food, water, medical supplies etc on hand so that you can sit out a 3 day event.  Or a week long event.  Or a month long event until the infrastructure can be restored to normalcy.  Is there the concern of a longer lasting event?  Yes.  That was one of the reasons for the Nat Geo docudrama.  Input from a variety of sources was utilized to project the possible outcomes of just a 10 day event.  Were they spot on?  I'd say they were conservative in their assessment.  Most people in our modern society have lost their self-reliant ability in favor of keeping up with the Kardasians or DWTS.  Do they know how to process clean drinking water?  Ask your friends if water stopped coming out of the tap how they'd disinfect the water of waterborne pathogens.  And where would they get the water to begin with.  What is their plan for thermoregulating core body temperature.
> 
> In most any emergency situation the biggest killers, beyond immediate blunt force trauma, would be hypo/hyperthermia and dehydration.  So a little fore knowledge and preparation to prevent or mitigate those things are only prudent.




Really? The whole centre of a major British city is wiped out by a 3,3000lb bomb  and that's  'just' localised?

If I asked my friends about 'processing' clean water most know exactly how to do, in fact I can tell you thousands of people do, and yes we know where to get water from, we don't all have central heating you , we actually do know how to keep warm and keep cool for that matter. Perhaps you know people who can't look after themselves but I know a great many, in fact I know an entire generation who did just that during the Blitz or perhaps that was too localised for you?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> Really? The whole centre of a major British city is wiped out by a 3,3000lb bomb  and that's  'just' localised?



Tez, I'm quite familiar with what happened in G.B.  I've been to G.B. and I'm in fact half British myself.  My comments weren't meant to minimize the event.  But the infrastructure of the nation was still intact albeit at a vastly reduced capacity.  

And I'm glad you're friends are prepared and knowledgeable.  I'm afraid I can't say that for the bulk of Americans.  The stats I've seen are that less than 10% of Americans a properly prepared for an emergency situation.  That's a pretty sad statistic.  Hurricane Sandy is a prime example.  Folks had a full weeks notice that the storm was coming and was a bad one.  A lot of folks were still caught flat-footed.  I remember the news reports about people scalping one box of kitchen matches for $10.  

One cannot prepare for everything, and there will always be unanticipated circumstances.  Prepare as best as one can is prudent advice.  

This has been a popular thread since last year on many forums, it is being redone on this new board:

What is a BOB GHB or EDC What goes in one And why the heck would I want one anyway


----------



## drop bear

I am sort of kind of living out of a bob at the moment for work.

Slept in a bivy bag last night.


----------



## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> Tez, I'm quite familiar with what happened in G.B.  I've been to G.B. and I'm in fact half British myself.  My comments weren't meant to minimize the event.  But the infrastructure of the nation was still intact albeit at a vastly reduced capacity.
> 
> And I'm glad you're friends are prepared and knowledgeable.  I'm afraid I can't say that for the bulk of Americans.  The stats I've seen are that less than 10% of Americans a properly prepared for an emergency situation.  That's a pretty sad statistic.  Hurricane Sandy is a prime example.  Folks had a full weeks notice that the storm was coming and was a bad one.  A lot of folks were still caught flat-footed.  I remember the news reports about people scalping one box of kitchen matches for $10.
> 
> One cannot prepare for everything, and there will always be unanticipated circumstances.  Prepare as best as one can is prudent advice.
> 
> This has been a popular thread since last year on many forums, it is being redone on this new board:
> 
> What is a BOB GHB or EDC What goes in one And why the heck would I want one anyway



I think the problem you have is that when you say people were caught flat footed you assume people have enough money to be able to move out of the area when a storm warning is called, that people have the resources to be able to stock up for an emergency when in fact they find it hard to stock up for a week. It is always going to be the relatively wealthy that are going to be prepared for these problems, the poorer people are always going to be the ones who suffer in any  crisis situation. In the recent earthquake in Nepal it was the poor who suffered most as it was in India, Haiti etc etc. All this 'prepper' stuff is for the well off who can afford it not the poor who can't.
My friends and I aren't 'prepared and knowledgeable' we aren't preparing for an emergency, it's just part of our education, people like Ray Mears are very popular here, not for the survivalist stuff but for the interest in the wild world.

If you know the UK you will also know bombs are going off regularly, another went off last night in Lurgan NI.


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> Really? The whole centre of a major British city is wiped out by a 3,3000lb bomb  and that's  'just' localised?
> 
> If I asked my friends about 'processing' clean water most know exactly how to do, in fact I can tell you thousands of people do, and yes we know where to get water from, we don't all have central heating you , we actually do know how to keep warm and keep cool for that matter. Perhaps you know people who can't look after themselves but I know a great many, in fact I know an entire generation who did just that during the Blitz or perhaps that was too localised for you?



I doubt the modern generation would do. Perhaps those lucky enough to have parents or grand parents with a military background. I have asked several people around my area and that knowledge does not exsist. Perhaps people in you're area do get that kind of information readily being in a rural area, but in a city a different mindset exsists. As someone in Brighton where to source water, they will likely say the local shop. Also in the modern generation who knows about the "Blitz" Not even I do and I had family that died in it. Sorry, but where is the correlation to a modern day disaster?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> I think the problem you have is that when you say people were caught flat footed you assume people have enough money to be able to move out of the area when a storm warning is called, that people have the resources to be able to stock up for an emergency when in fact they find it hard to stock up for a week. It is always going to be the relatively wealthy that are going to be prepared for these problems, the poorer people are always going to be the ones who suffer in any  crisis situation. In the recent earthquake in Nepal it was the poor who suffered most as it was in India, Haiti etc etc. All this 'prepper' stuff is for the well off who can afford it not the poor who can't.
> My friends and I aren't 'prepared and knowledgeable' we aren't preparing for an emergency, it's just part of our education, people like Ray Mears are very popular here, not for the survivalist stuff but for the interest in the wild world.
> 
> If you know the UK you will also know bombs are going off regularly, another went off last night in Lurgan NI.



With respect, I have to disagree in regards to the wealthy vs. poor.  Rather it is prepared vs. unprepared.  And to go a step further, it is the self reliant vs. the dependent.  Here is an example of how a person could 'prep' for around $5 a week (post #2):

Your advice to someone new to emergency preparedness and or self reliance

It doesn't take money, it takes awareness and commitment.  It takes a reality check and a calm, rational assessment of what problems one may face and how to prevent or mitigate the effects of those problems.  For example, someone in Florida should realize that a hurricane or tropical storm is a realistic possibility.  Someone in California should realize an earthquake or wildfire is a realistic possibility.  So extra preparation is prudent, and doesn't have to be expensive.   As the list in that persons post indicates, for the price of a Big Mac and small fry, once a week, you can stock up for a rainy day.  

If that rainy day never comes...you win.  If it does come you just reduced a load of stress you would be under otherwise.


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> I doubt the modern generation would do. Perhaps those lucky enough to have parents or grand parents with a military background. I have asked several people around my area and that knowledge does not exsist. Perhaps people in you're area do get that kind of information readily being in a rural area, but in a city a different mindset exsists. As someone in Brighton where to source water, they will likely say the local shop. Also in the modern generation who knows about the "Blitz" Not even I do and I had family that died in it. Sorry, but where is the correlation to a modern day disaster?



There is a lot of government and academic research done into how people behave in a disaster and it's not how many imagine. You can ask all sorts of questions about finding water etc of people when everything is normal but in a disaster situation people do actually use their common sense and work things out, it's called survival instinct. People don't think  when things are all going well about how they will get on when things go pear shaped but human nature makes people ingenious, you know the phrase 'necessity is the mother of invention' all this doom and gloom is rubbish frankly. The 'modern' generation is far more inventive and could manage far better than you'd imagine. As for the Blitz, people then didn't have years of training, they lived in cities, they were modern people of the time who were used to all the comforts of cities and they managed as will any generation. I get really tired of people slagging off the 'modern' generation as if they were somehow less able than any other generation, well they aren't and they will manage perfectly well in a disaster.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/emergency_response/common_misconceptions.pdf 

The myths of looters etc after Katrina How people really behave during disasters - Boing Boing

How people really behave in a disaster Johann Hari The myth of the panicking disaster victim - Johann Hari - Commentators - The Independent


----------



## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> It doesn't take money,



There speaks a man who can afford more than a weeks grocery shopping at a time. What about people and there's a great many over here who have to get their food from a food bank and can't afford a 'Big Mac and fries'? No, I'm sorry, people who live hand to mouth are already doing the 'survival thing' telling them to stock up is adding insult to injury. They are too busy trying to survive a day at a time to also worry about what a potential disaster could do.


----------



## tshadowchaser

I have read all the posts on being prepared but in truth if a major disaster hits you and your home is gone and most or all of the community you live in has been destroyed whatever you had stored for an emergency is also gone.  You had better know some rudimentary emergency medicine, know how to build a shelter, and possibly how to make a weapon. Hunting and fishing might be a way to survive if your in an area that makes such things possible but if your in a large city knowing the ways out of that city might be necessary.   
Something I do not think has been discussed is the need to be be able to communicate in as friendly or possibly aggressive manner to those you meet.  Being able to make friends and reestablish a community to defend and forage together might also be needed.
All the supplies in the world is not good if the whole area is no longer there.
As for looting, I'll be truthful I would loot food if that was the only way to put food on the table for my family but looting for the sake of looting is wrong


----------



## Tez3

tshadowchaser said:


> Something I do not think has been discussed is the need to be be able to communicate in as friendly or possibly aggressive manner to those you meet. Being able to make friends and reestablish a community to defend and forage together might also be needed.



In the links I posted one of the points made was that when the lights go out people become actually more 'social' and work together rather than against each other. There is far more 'community spirit' than there is actual aggression, perhaps the fact that aggression and fighting make for more exciting films and tv series has made people assume that in any disaster situation was will break out rather than what really happens that people work together to rebuild etc, doesn't make very good drama.
Again in the links I posted the only looting that did actually happen after Katrina was by those who were actually starving rather than the widespread rape, murder ( and cannibalism!) and looting that was supposedly happening, again the truth doesn't sell newspapers or television time.
People have got it into their minds thanks to the media that come a disaster there will be civil war and every man jack for themselves when studies into disasters show that it not what happens ( only in films lol) people even city people manage, to be honest fi the human race couldn't adapt and overcome we'd have been extinct a very long time ago.


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> There is a lot of government and academic research done into how people behave in a disaster and it's not how many imagine. You can ask all sorts of questions about finding water etc of people when everything is normal but in a disaster situation people do actually use their common sense and work things out, it's called survival instinct. People don't think  when things are all going well about how they will get on when things go pear shaped but human nature makes people ingenious, you know the phrase 'necessity is the mother of invention' all this doom and gloom is rubbish frankly. The 'modern' generation is far more inventive and could manage far better than you'd imagine. As for the Blitz, people then didn't have years of training, they lived in cities, they were modern people of the time who were used to all the comforts of cities and they managed as will any generation. I get really tired of people slagging off the 'modern' generation as if they were somehow less able than any other generation, well they aren't and they will manage perfectly well in a disaster.
> http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/emergency_response/common_misconceptions.pdf
> 
> The myths of looters etc after Katrina How people really behave during disasters - Boing Boing
> 
> How people really behave in a disaster Johann Hari The myth of the panicking disaster victim - Johann Hari - Commentators - The Independent



I would imagine that people are aware of what to London and Coventry etc. Don't who is slagging of the modern generation, but a reliance on todays technology will dilute any thought until necessary. Then people will have to adapt, which many probably will. Trick is whether they can overcome the shock quickly enough. Perhaps the pdf you linked is actually representative coming from a Government survey. Would make a change. I will give it a read.


----------



## Transk53

tshadowchaser said:


> I have read all the posts on being prepared but in truth if a major disaster hits you and your home is gone and most or all of the community you live in has been destroyed whatever you had stored for an emergency is also gone.  You had better know some rudimentary emergency medicine, know how to build a shelter, and possibly how to make a weapon. Hunting and fishing might be a way to survive if your in an area that makes such things possible but if your in a large city knowing the ways out of that city might be necessary.
> Something I do not think has been discussed is the need to be be able to communicate in as friendly or possibly aggressive manner to those you meet.  Being able to make friends and reestablish a community to defend and forage together might also be needed.
> All the supplies in the world is not good if the whole area is no longer there.
> As for looting, I'll be truthful I would loot food if that was the only way to put food on the table for my family but looting for the sake of looting is wrong



It would be wrong, but human nature is what it is. The wolf and the sheep kind of thing. In an absolute disaster I would hope that most would stick together and act alturisctly. But as has happened with the dreadful events around the world, most could not cope with things gone to ****. Thankfully the rest of the world rallied and helped. I dread to think what would happen with a global event. No one will be prepared for that IMHO.


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> It would be wrong, but human nature is what it is. The wolf and the sheep kind of thing. In an absolute disaster I would hope that most would stick together and act alturisctly. But as has happened with the dreadful events around the world, most could not cope with things gone to ****. Thankfully the rest of the world rallied and helped. I dread to think what would happen with a global event. No one will be prepared for that IMHO.[/Q
> 
> What disaster were you thinking of where people didn't behave and cope well? In Nepal people did, in Japan, New Zealand, here they do, it's been documented that people do behave well when there is a disaster. Katrina is a example, there were horror stories coming out that simply weren't true. people choose to believe the worse and even in face of documented evidence some persist in thinking the world will go to hell in a disaster yet it hasn't yet.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> There is a lot of government and academic research done into how people behave in a disaster and it's not how many imagine.



I'm all for academic research, unless it doesn't stack up against what has actually happened in the real world.  Many will work together.  Many will not.  If you think everyone is going to rally together you may want to talk to the victims that were in the Super Dome during Katrina.  Or perhaps talk with the first responders who were fired on while trying performing rescue operations.  Or talk to the police from that area...I'm mean the one's that weren't actively looting themselves.  

So yes, many folks will band together and help each other.  Many are going to panic when they don't have food and water and their way of normalcy has disappeared.

Better to have prepared ahead of time.  That's just common sense.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> There speaks a man who can afford more than a weeks grocery shopping at a time.



That hasn't always been the case.  



Tez3 said:


> What about people and there's a great many over here who have to get their food from a food bank and can't afford a 'Big Mac and fries'?



Okay, what about them?  Does this include you?  If not, then perhaps your own prior preparedness can benefit a few others.  Personally, I'm not going to take food out of my families mouth to help people, who had the means but lacked the foresight, to plan for a rainy day.  On the other hand, I've always made efforts to help those that are unable to help themselves.  Only by being in the position to help myself can I then help others.



Tez3 said:


> ...all this doom and gloom is rubbish frankly.



Frankly, that's a cop out.  It isn't _doom and gloom_ to discuss disaster preparedness.  No on is saying the world ends tomorrow.  Rather a realistic assessment that disasters, such a one in the OP, have happened, can happen and do happen.  Whether the power goes out due to a terrorist attack, nature phenomena or storm the results are that the power is out.  The question now becomes what prior planning did you/I/they do to mitigate the situation.  Earthquakes happen, tsunami's happen, wildfires happen, flat tires happen.  It isn't _doom and gloom_ to accept that reality and then discuss ways to mitigate the aftermath.  If that is too _doom and gloom_ for someone then this isn't the thread they should be involved in frankly.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> The 'modern' generation is far more inventive and could manage far better than you'd imagine



Disagree.  They are no where near as self reliant as generation in the past.  Can't speak for the U.K. but we have the entitlement generation here in the U.S.  We have those willingly dependent upon the system to support them.  We have a generation that can fix your Iphone or PC but don't know how to properly disinfect water, manage an injury if 911 isn't working, make a proper shelter, gather food (that isn't in a package on a shelf in an air conditioned store) etc.  Does that cover ALL people?  Of course not.  But it covers a wide swath of the population.  

The time to learn how to swim is not when the ship is sinking.  The time to make a plan is when you are calm, under no stress, can do proper research and make a sound plan.  Those with the 'it can't happen to me' mentality will have to live with the consequences of their decisions.  

And to be clear, those that absolutely don't have the financial means to do at least what is in the list in the link I posted is VERY small.  And those that can should then put themselves in a position where they can help others that are unable to help themselves.


----------



## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> That hasn't always been the case.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, what about them?  Does this include you?  If not, then perhaps your own prior preparedness can benefit a few others.  Personally, I'm not going to take food out of my families mouth to help people, who had the means but lacked the foresight, to plan for a rainy day.  On the other hand, I've always made efforts to help those that are unable to help themselves.  Only by being in the position to help myself can I then help others.
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, that's a cop out.  It isn't _doom and gloom_ to discuss disaster preparedness.  No on is saying the world ends tomorrow.  Rather a realistic assessment that disasters, such a one in the OP, have happened, can happen and do happen.  Whether the power goes out due to a terrorist attack, nature phenomena or storm the results are that the power is out.  The question now becomes what prior planning did you/I/they do to mitigate the situation.  Earthquakes happen, tsunami's happen, wildfires happen, flat tires happen.  It isn't _doom and gloom_ to accept that reality and then discuss ways to mitigate the aftermath.  If that is too _doom and gloom_ for someone then this isn't the thread they should be involved in frankly.



Frankly I'm not sure what you are on about, I haven't prepared anything for anything. I'm talking about people who can't afford to buy food let along 'save' food. It is all gloom and doom when people whinge on about the 'end of days' etc etc etc. If you focus so much on preparing for what may never happen you miss what is happening now, fine get some knowledge about how to survive but then get on with your life, perhaps some campaigning for a greener world less pollution, less damaging of the earth wouldn't go amiss rather than preparing for the end of the world caused by mankind's misuse of it. Most people who actually live in areas where there's earthquakes, brushfires etc do know what to do however I think you have misunderstood what I meant by doom and gloom, there's a whole industry out there making sure people are panicking about all these disasters that could happen.

I also don't think that because you disagree with me I should stop posting on this thread


----------



## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> Disagree.  They are no where near as self reliant as generation in the past.  Can't speak for the U.K. but we have the entitlement generation here in the U.S.  We have those willingly dependent upon the system to support them.  We have a generation that can fix your Iphone or PC but don't know how to properly disinfect water, manage an injury if 911 isn't working, make a proper shelter, gather food (that isn't in a package on a shelf in an air conditioned store) etc.  Does that cover ALL people?  Of course not.  But it covers a wide swath of the population.
> 
> The time to learn how to swim is not when the ship is sinking.  The time to make a plan is when you are calm, under no stress, can do proper research and make a sound plan.  Those with the 'it can't happen to me' mentality will have to live with the consequences of their decisions.
> 
> And to be clear, those that absolutely don't have the financial means to do at least what is in the list in the link I posted is VERY small.  And those that can should then put themselves in a position where they can help others that are unable to help themselves.




You see, slagging off the current generation, you don't actually know how they will react in a situation, you are surmising, assuming. What makes you think that the generation during the last war actually knew how to do all those things? What makes you think that the current generation don't know how to do these things? Are you judging them on appearances alone? How do you know that they won't be able to cope? Don't you think that similar people have found themselves in crisis situations all over the world and have survived? Do you think earthquakes and tsunamis only happen to people who know how to light a fire and boil water? Your very evident feeling of superiority is perhaps clouding your judgement and leading you to under estimate people. I've seen people like those you describe act bravely and sensibly during a crisis, who have managed to deal with injuries and wounds, who haven't panicked and who have worked together under hugely stressful conditions.

I hope you are just talking about the US when you say the amount of people who can't afford these things is very small because trust me, in the UK that isn't true. Poverty is rising here, the amount of people who use food banks is rising, people are losing their homes due to debt, the amount of people who cannot afford to stockpile food is higher than those who can at this point in time, and things won't get any better anytime soon. Food banks stockpiling for summer amid fears free school meals children will go hungry - Mirror Online


----------



## Tez3

It's a lucrative industry though isn't it, perhaps making the world a better place would be a better use for all that money instead of making companies rich.
Industries Making the Most Money on Doomsday Preppers - Yahoo Finance


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> It is all gloom and doom when people whinge on about the 'end of days' etc etc etc.



Who is talking about 'end of days' in this thread?  We are, in fact, talking about it NOT being your end of days.  



Tez3 said:


> If you focus so much on preparing for what may never happen you miss what is happening now...



Who has suggested focusing so much on 'gloom and doom' that you miss the good times?  I don't believe anyone has suggested this or made any suggestions to that effect.  

Please don't make an issue out of something that isn't even mentioned in the thread.  Sensible 'prepping' means tossing a couple of extra cans of tuna fish in the cart when you're shopping.  It means having a means to disinfect your water should it become necessary.  It means having a comfortable pair of shoes in the trunk (boot for our U.K. cousins) in case you break down.  



Tez3 said:


> ...perhaps some campaigning for a greener world less pollution, less damaging of the earth...



I'll give you an example;  I recycle my trash.  I also compost a lot of my trash for reuse as soil for my garden as well as fertilizer.  That is an area of interest and also something I have a bit of knowledge in so I can pass along that information to others.  Prepping is also an area of interest that I have a bit of knowledge in so I can pass along information to others.  



Tez3 said:


> I also don't think that because you disagree with me I should stop posting on this thread



Didn't say you should.  What I said is if someone can't handle the topic they picked the wrong thread.  This thread isn't about ponies and lollypops.  It is about disaster and emergency preparedness and how to prevent or mitigate those situations.



Tez3 said:


> You see, slagging off the current generation, you don't actually know how they will react in a situation, you are surmising, assuming.



It isn't surmising when you see realworld examples of what has happened in events like Katrina, Sandy etc.  And academic studies are all well and fine.  Quite different when the agency you work for is tasked with responding to what is actually happening.  Then you have a difference from what a study suggests and what you and fellow L.E. have actually seen on the ground.  To be clear, many fine examples of people helping others out.  No suggestions to the contrary.  However, the opposite is just as true...unfortunately.  



Tez3 said:


> I hope you are just talking about the US when you say the amount of people who can't afford these things is very small because trust me, in the UK that isn't true. Poverty is rising here, the amount of people who use food banks is rising, people are losing their homes due to debt, the amount of people who cannot afford to stockpile food is higher than those who can at this point in time, and things won't get any better anytime soon.



And what does that have to do with people that CAN afford an extra $5 a week?  Nothing at all.  It's a red herring.


----------



## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> Who is talking about 'end of days' in this thread?  We are, in fact, talking about it NOT being your end of days.
> 
> 
> 
> Who has suggested focusing so much on 'gloom and doom' that you miss the good times?  I don't believe anyone has suggested this or made any suggestions to that effect.
> 
> Please don't make an issue out of something that isn't even mentioned in the thread.  Sensible 'prepping' means tossing a couple of extra cans of tuna fish in the cart when you're shopping.  It means having a means to disinfect your water should it become necessary.  It means having a comfortable pair of shoes in the trunk (boot for our U.K. cousins) in case you break down.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll give you an example;  I recycle my trash.  I also compost a lot of my trash for reuse as soil for my garden as well as fertilizer.  That is an area of interest and also something I have a bit of knowledge in so I can pass along that information to others.  Prepping is also an area of interest that I have a bit of knowledge in so I can pass along information to others.
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't say you should.  What I said is if someone can't handle the topic they picked the wrong thread.  This thread isn't about ponies and lollypops.  It is about disaster and emergency preparedness and how to prevent or mitigate those situations.
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't surmising when you see realworld examples of what has happened in events like Katrina, Sandy etc.  And academic studies are all well and fine.  Quite different when the agency you work for is tasked with responding to what is actually happening.  Then you have a difference from what a study suggests and what you and fellow L.E. have actually seen on the ground.  To be clear, many fine examples of people helping others out.  No suggestions to the contrary.  However, the opposite is just as true...unfortunately.
> 
> 
> 
> And what does that have to do with people that CAN afford an extra $5 a week?  Nothing at all.  It's a red herring.



Ponies and lollipops? Weird as is the 'red herring' bit. As for 'handling' the topic, sorry is it that difficult or scary then?

Actually the 'studies' weren't an academic exercise having a guess at what could happen but were evidence based, carefully recorded reporting from the very people who were as you put it 'tasked to respond'. Academic doesn't mean it's hypothetical, it means it was carefully researched and evidence taken after the events and cross checked for veracity.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> It's a lucrative industry though isn't it, perhaps making the world a better place would be a better use for all that money instead of making companies rich.
> Industries Making the Most Money on Doomsday Preppers - Yahoo Finance



Too bad you don't put as much energy into personal preparedness as you do using Google.  Are folks making money selling preps?  Yep.  That's called capitalism.  Do you need to buy any of it to be prepared?  Nope.  You can get a TON of good preps at the $ store.  A LOT of preps can be DIY...which is the best way to be self reliant.  It's more about making sound choices than buying 'tacticool' preps.

And going 'green' is wonderful and I'm all for it.  But seems a LOT of folks are cashing in on that too.  Let's see, how much are those Eco-friendly cars again?


----------



## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> Too bad you don't put as much energy into personal preparedness as you do using Google.  Are folks making money selling preps?  Yep.  That's called capitalism.  Do you need to buy any of it to be prepared?  Nope.  You can get a TON of good preps at the $ store.  A LOT of preps can be DIY...which is the best way to be self reliant.  It's more about making sound choices than buying 'tacticool' preps.
> 
> And going 'green' is wonderful and I'm all for it.  But seems a LOT of folks are cashing in on that too.  Let's see, how much are those Eco-friendly cars again?




Really, pity you didn't read my posts where you'll find I'm more than prepared for most things, I've been very well educated on how to survive, I've even done jungle survival. I can cope perfectly well in a variety of surroundings, ex mil and ex LE as well as extensive Scouting and Guiding outdoor experience, Duke of Edinburgh scheme expedition trainer etc.
As for capitalism, well that's the problem isn't it...capitalism 

Oh and an awful lot of knowledge on psychology and how people behave in chaotic situations ( part of what I did in the military was to know how people behave in certain situations) so no Googling needed.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

I have read your posts Tez, we've talked enough about stuff in general to respect what you have to say.  I commented based on this comment;



Tez3 said:


> I haven't prepared anything for anything.



But in light of your last post, perhaps I didn't understand what you meant?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

In regards to capitalism, I'm all for free enterprise.  But it doesn't mean I have to buy.  As an example of what I'm talking about, there is a product for pre-made tinder.  Great idea, but it isn't cheap by any means.  So I make my own, literally for pennies.

DIY Firestarter Wafer

So this is an example of DIY that provides a useful 'prep' without paying a ridiculous $.

And it was fun and gives a sense of satisfaction for having done a project that could be useful.  Not just for an emergency but when I go remote camping.

Proper prepping also means saving money sometimes.  For example, after Sandy a box of matches was being scalped for $10.  Not a fine example of people helping people.  Yet a simple 50 cent lighter or a $2 mag bar purchased ahead of time would save $ and heartache later.

As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm all for academic research, unless it doesn't stack up against what has actually happened in the real world.  Many will work together.  Many will not.  If you think everyone is going to rally together you may want to talk to the victims that were in the Super Dome during Katrina.  Or perhaps talk with the first responders who were fired on while trying performing rescue operations.  Or talk to the police from that area...I'm mean the one's that weren't actively looting themselves.
> 
> So yes, many folks will band together and help each other.  Many are going to panic when they don't have food and water and their way of normalcy has disappeared.
> 
> Better to have prepared ahead of time.  That's just common sense.



Do you have a source?


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> I am sort of kind of living out of a bob at the moment for work.
> 
> Slept in a bivy bag last night.



On a holiday in Wales as a kid, we slept outside in big plastic bags passing for such. Had the sleeping bag underneath. When we woke, we had Deer droppings near by. That was fun camping out.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Do you have a source?



That is the thing with academic research, it is just that, facts and figures by the numbers. Not a lot of practicle,


----------



## Transk53

Transk53 said:


> That is the thing with academic research, it is just that, facts and figures by the numbers. Not a lot of practicle,



Unless people actually test it out on the ground. One persons research is often shot down by another who disagrees.


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> That is the thing with academic research, it is just that, facts and figures by the numbers. Not a lot of practicle,




Actually you are wrong, the 'studies' _I'm_ talking about are eye witness accounts ( these days often it's video from mobile phones and tablets etc), reports from emergency services, police and military, charities, in fact anyone who was at the scene of any disaster. they are all collated, checked and verified. It isn't research as in lab work or postulating what happens but actual accounts of people's behaviour.
It's not 'testing' anything at all because the testing that was done has been proved incorrect by these reports. All the assumptions said that people would panic and mass hysteria would break out, the truth as shown by all the latest reports such as I'm talking about has shown this to be untrue.


----------



## drop bear

Ok. Being set up to look after your self helps emergency services dedicate more time to those who cant. So moving away from the mad max style survival you do make it a bit easier on everybody to be self sufficient.

Which is why we have these government incentives.

 Things that will help if the lights go out. 

Have your car full of petrol. Keep it full rather than empty. It doesn't cost any more and gives you a few days grace should service stations go down.

Have some cash. Same reason.

A barbecue is one of the easiest survival cookers for the home. When the power goes out. Cook from the fridge then the freezer then the stored food. 

With warning. I fill up bottles of water and throw it in the freezer makes it run more efficiently keeps it colder longer.

You can alfoil your windows for insulation. Baking spray keeps it on there.

If you are going to store canned food. Buy vegies as well. You go a bit nuts after a few days eating spam. (which is prohibitively expensive here anyway)


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> That is the thing with academic research, it is just that, facts and figures by the numbers. Not a lot of practicle,



Yes but that is not what is being compared. I cant ask first responders from Katrina what their take was. 

So it was a sneaky way for kong soo do to side step that there was evidence against without actually addressing the evidence.

So yes stories on the ground have worth but we never actually got any.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> On a holiday in Wales as a kid, we slept outside in big plastic bags passing for such. Had the sleeping bag underneath. When we woke, we had Deer droppings near by. That was fun camping out.



Nice work. I went the la de da version. With gortex and a poncho liner. What did work well though was a truck sunshade.(one of those silver ones) that I used as a mat. They are also so cheap as to be disposable.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Yes but that is not what is being compared. I cant ask first responders from Katrina what their take was.
> 
> So it was a sneaky way for kong soo do to side step that there was evidence against without actually addressing the evidence.
> 
> So yes stories on the ground have worth but we never actually got any.




It was the stories on the ground from many different disasters that were collated to give the evidence that the reports I was quoting. It wasn't anything that was hypothetical but hard evidence. Evidence from Katrina was included.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> It was the stories on the ground from many different disasters that were collated to give the evidence that the reports I was quoting. It wasn't anything that was hypothetical but hard evidence. Evidence from Katrina was included.



If there was counter evidence he would have a run though. But there isn't any. So you are correct.

Otherwise you can play against probably here as well. That is why people take out insurance. So there is a bit more to the discussion than playing the percentages.

Are you arguing against preparing for a disaster of some sort because it is unlikely?


----------



## drop bear

So as an example. Most people don't steal. But enough people do to keep a good eye on your generator.

No Cookies The Courier-Mail

It is a risk versus reward thing.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

drop bear said:


> Ok. Being set up to look after your self helps emergency services dedicate more time to those who cant.



Yes, exactly.  Being part of the solution and not part of the problem.  Additionally, being well prepared allows you flexibility in helping others.  If you're got nothing, you can't help anyone.



drop bear said:


> Have your car full of petrol. Keep it full rather than empty. It doesn't cost any more and gives you a few days grace should service stations go down.



Yes, and as an option, you can buy an inverter to hook to your cars battery.  A car is usually more fuel efficient than a generator and runs quite a bit quieter.



drop bear said:


> Have some cash. Same reason.
> 
> A barbecue is one of the easiest survival cookers for the home. When the power goes out. Cook from the fridge then the freezer then the stored food.
> 
> With warning. I fill up bottles of water and throw it in the freezer makes it run more efficiently keeps it colder longer.



Yep.



drop bear said:


> You can alfoil your windows for insulation.



Making a micro-climate in your home is an excellent option.  Emergency space blankets can be purchased rather inexpensively and can reflect away long and short wave radiation i.e sun light.  Conversely you can reflect you own body heat back towards you in a cold environment.  No reason not to toss one or two in a glove box as well since they are so small, light and compact.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*Being prepared for an emergency just makes sense*.  Whether it would be an earthquake, ice storm, power outage, fire, tsunami, war, etc.  Having some tools available, food stores, water, etc. would be really good.  Most emergencies probably will not affect you more than a few days but... if it goes longer it sure would be nice to have some stores that you could use.  Every government that I know has come out in recent times advocating having some storage of basic necessities.  I consider myself a survivalist in that I train to know how to do things in an emergency situation.  I also have goods stored in case of an emergency as well as survival tools such as first aid kits, knives, firearms, etc. You can take it as far as you would like but as long as it is within reason and your budget then good for you!


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Are you arguing against preparing for a disaster of some sort because it is unlikely?



Not at all, I'm arguing against making it such a way of life that you forget to live in the present. This 'prepping' stuff seems to have become a fixation for too many, prepare by all means then leave it alone, it's not an everyday hobby.
 I'm also very fed up with the constant slagging off of the 'current generation' which never seems to include the person saying it! Young people today are portrayed in such a bad light yet it's rarely true. In the UK thousands and thousands of young people take part every year in the Duke of Edinburgh award scheme which includes expeditions and the preparation of them, thousands more do expeditions in this country and abroad with Scouting, Guiding, Boy's and Girl's Brigades and military cadets, all doing survival skills, people watch the countless Bear Grylls and Ray Mears programmes, a good many do have an idea how to survive in a disaster. People who are keen on this prepping stuff seem to have a very low opinion of everyone else.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Not at all, I'm arguing against making it such a way of life that you forget to live in the present. This 'prepping' stuff seems to have become a fixation for too many, prepare by all means then leave it alone, it's not an everyday hobby.
> I'm also very fed up with the constant slagging off of the 'current generation' which never seems to include the person saying it! Young people today are portrayed in such a bad light yet it's rarely true. In the UK thousands and thousands of young people take part every year in the Duke of Edinburgh award scheme which includes expeditions and the preparation of them, thousands more do expeditions in this country and abroad with Scouting, Guiding, Boy's and Girl's Brigades and military cadets, all doing survival skills, people watch the countless Bear Grylls and Ray Mears programmes, a good many do have an idea how to survive in a disaster. People who are keen on this prepping stuff seem to have a very low opinion of everyone else.



There is definitely that element of escapism where people think that they will finally cool due to the power of their preps come the apocalypse.

Socrates I Think it was,famously complained about the younger generation.


----------



## drop bear

“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.


Socrates


----------



## Jacky Zuki

Where I grew up in the Peak District we got mains water and sewage in 1996, mains electricity in 2000 and the telephone in 2003. I don't think I have forgotten how to live without yet. I still don't trust the funny tasting water that comes out of the tap but electricity is nice to have without a generator chugging away in the yard. I can still make a fire (without matches given enough time), forage, grow food and hunt so life would be relatively comfortable until the canned food ran out. We lost power a couple of years ago due to snow bringing the power lines down and we were out for a week so I had to help out at the next farm, milking over a hundred cows by hand. It certainly improves your grip strength - recommended for grapplers!


----------



## Tez3

We use the Guiding facilities in Derbyshire. Girl Guiding Derbyshire


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez, I love ya, truly I do.  But you keep hitting a couple of things.  One of which only you are bringing up;



Tez3 said:


> Not at all, I'm arguing against making it such a way of life that you forget to live in the present. This 'prepping' stuff seems to have become a fixation for too many...



No one in this thread has mentioned prepping to the extend that you don't live you life, except you.  Is there a show called Doomsday Preppers were they go nuts?  Sure.  But that's on T.V. and in no way, shape or form represents the vast majority of 'preppers'.  The bulk of the 'preppers' I know are just regular folks that want to be prepared in case of an emergency.  Anything can be taken to the extreme.  Martial arts can be taken to an extreme.  Or it can be something that we do and enjoy without it 'consuming' our every waking moment.  

Sensible, realistic and common sense are the simple watch words.  

Secondly, you keep on about us 'slagging' on the current generation.  To be clear, there are idiots and freeloaders in every generation.  And I can't speak for the U.K., but in this country the number of 'sheeple' is quite alarming.  They don't know their own countries history, they are 'entitled', the want others to hand them a living and don't care where the money comes from and getting a good education and working hard for a living to become successful is a foreign concept...or a dirty word.  

Is that all the youth?  No.  But it is a large % of them in this country.  I just posted this on the SEP board in response to someone's post:



> People like this are part of the 'entitlement' generation.  They aren't interested in getting a good education, working hard and becoming successful based upon their own merits.   They would rather be handed their living with no questions asked.  They have no issue with giving up personal freedoms in order to not have to work hard.  There is no other way to say it except they are ignorant, misinformed, freeloading sheep.
> 
> Remember the woman celebrating cause she was going to get her 'Obama phone' and 'Obama money'?  She was asked who was going to pay for all that and she didn't care as long as 'she got hers'.  Or the surfer dude that surfs all day cause he gets welfare and would rather surf than look for work?  This is their limited way of thinking unfortunately.  They don't care where the money is coming from, as long as they don't have to work for it.
> 
> Jesse Waters has his segment 'Water's World' on Bill O'Reilly's show.  He was doing a segment where he was doing the 'man in the street' interviews at a well known college campus.  These college aged kids were so ignorant it seriously wasn't even funny.  One girl thought America was founded in 1940.  They didn't know who JFK or Regan were.  They didn't know squat about this country or real life.  I rewound it and asked my son who was around 14 at the time to come watch it.  We've homeschooled him since pre-school.  I replayed the segment.  He got all the questions right and actually thought this was a comedy skit.  I had to explain it wasn't a skit and these were real college age kids that were responding to the questions.
> 
> So it should come as no surprise the direction this country has taken with a 'willingly ignorant' segment of the population that is willing to give up freedoms (they don't realize they have or appreciate) in order to be handed something they didn't earn.
> 
> They are selfish, self centered and know more about rap singers and former porn stars turned celebrity than they do about their own government.
> 
> Try this little experiment, I've done this and wasn't pleased with the results.  Ask any group of people the following questions:
> 
> Can you name five professional foot ball teams?
> Can you name five professional baseball teams?
> Can you name five professional basketball teams?
> Can you name five famous movie stars?
> Can you name five famous rap stars?
> You'll likely get close to a 100% response to your questions.  Now ask these two questions:
> 
> Who are your two state senators?
> Who is your congressman/woman and what district to you live in?
> See if you get a response....or a blank stare!
> 
> Now you know why this country is in the shape it's in.



When you see college age students that think this country was founded in 1940...something went wrong somewhere.  That is my opinion and my view and I will simply speak my opinion and view as I see and experience it.


----------



## tshadowchaser

In the USA I see groups of armed thugs roaming the streets stealing, committing rape, killing,and trying to subjugate everyone else to their authority if a big permanent disaster happens. If you do not think this will happen look to the LA riots for an example or look at the police  (of FBI)  records to see the number of Gangs in the USA. 
Yes in the country it will be different but in the inner city I foresee the gangs trying to dominate whomever is left alive.


----------



## EddieCyrax

tshadowchaser said:


> In the USA I see groups of armed thugs roaming the streets stealing, committing rape, killing,and trying to subjugate everyone else to their authority if a big permanent disaster happens. If you do not think this will happen look to the LA riots for an example or look at the police  (of FBI)  records to see the number of Gangs in the USA.
> Yes in the country it will be different but in the inner city I foresee the gangs trying to dominate whomever is left alive.



Will there be cells of lawlessness, sure.....will it be wide spread....I don't share your belief here....I have been in storm restoration efforts throughout the country and what i have seen in devastated areas is overall community engagement.

There will still be a police force/military in place.....There will still be community leaders.....  yes the lack of food/resources will cause issues, but I have generally witnessed human goodness prevailing in times of need.  Even in the US....Even in large cities.....I do not recall riots in NYC when most of the eastern grid went black in 2009....lots of gangs in NYC....How many earthquakes on the west coast???  What about hurricane Sandy's impact on a significant area of the east coast for months??   gangs are in every city and even in the rural communities to some degree,  this said generally communities coming together to help one another....Families help families....

At least this has been my experience.


----------



## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> Tez, I love ya, truly I do. But you keep hitting a couple of things. One of which only you are bringing up;



That's because I think for myself.



Kong Soo Do said:


> No one in this thread has mentioned prepping to the extend that you don't live you life, except you



So, we can only discuss what other's have brought up and not bring anything up ourselves? Are you saying I can't discuss anything other than what is dictated to me?



Kong Soo Do said:


> but in this country the number of 'sheeple' is quite alarming



Now, only people who know nothing about sheep will call people 'sheeple', it indicates a deep ignorance of sheep behaviour, they are actually as intelligent as dogs, they protect their young ferociously, they circle together for safety with the young in the middle, they can be very individualist and quite stubborn, the rams are known to kill people protecting the herd. We had a farmer killed by a ram a couple of years ago. They form strong social bonds with no dominance ( ie no bullying), they look after each other in fact.   If you want an animal who can forage in deep snow, protects their young, can find water and shelter in most types of country, can live in places not many other animals can, sheep are the animals you want. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> When you see college age students that think this country was founded in 1940...something went wrong somewhere.



That will be your education system not the young people that are to blame.


----------



## Steve

Kong Soo Do said:


> Secondly, you keep on about us 'slagging' on the current generation.  To be clear, there are idiots and freeloaders in every generation.  And I can't speak for the U.K., but in this country the number of 'sheeple' is quite alarming.  They don't know their own countries history, they are 'entitled', the want others to hand them a living and don't care where the money comes from and getting a good education and working hard for a living to become successful is a foreign concept...or a dirty word.
> 
> Is that all the youth?  No.  But it is a large % of them in this country.  I just posted this on the SEP board in response to someone's post:
> .


I agree with Tez completely.  I don't think this generation is any more or less capable than any other.  There are some "entitled" young people, but I've been very pleased at the quality and caliber of the young people my kids go to school with, as well as the young people entering the workforce.  Overall, they are hard working, creative and eager to please.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> So, we can only discuss what other's have brought up and not bring anything up ourselves? Are you saying I can't discuss anything other than what is dictated to me?



Didn't say you can't bring things up.  But it is evident that you have a very narrow view of 'preppers'.  You are broad-brushing an entire community of individuals. 




Tez3 said:


> Now, only people who know nothing about sheep will call people 'sheeple', it indicates a deep ignorance of sheep behaviour...



That is an American expression, just as 'slagging' is a British expression.  We don't really use it here, but I know the meaning your trying to convey.  Just as most folks will know what I mean by the reference of 'sheeple'.   



Tez3 said:


> That will be your education system not the young people that are to blame



That is one of the problems.  It is not the only one however.


----------



## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> Didn't say you can't bring things up. But it is evident that you have a very narrow view of 'preppers'. You are broad-brushing an entire community of individuals.




There's an entire community of people who devote their time to 'prepping'? ROFLMAO, you are joking right?

I don't have a narrow view of them, I don't have a view at all. Everyone needs a hobby. I just suggested that spending_ all_ one's time worrying about something isn't sensible. There is a saying 'don't trouble trouble till trouble troubles you', sure get your stuff together but then forget it, get on with life, it's like the spare tyre on your car, make sure it's fit for purpose then forget it until you need it. You don't have forums, shops, magazines about spare tyres......... or perhaps you do 

As for 'sheeple' it's an inaccurate made up word which doesn't convey a truthful meaning so basically it's rubbish. If you think that your young people are inadequate etc etc then you can only blame those who brought them up, acted as role models and generally shaped their views on life, the universe and everything, you can hardly blame them.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> There's an entire community of people who devote their time to 'prepping'? ROFLMAO, you are joking right?



Yes, there is an entire community of people who devote _some_ of their time to prepping.  And we enjoy discussion gear, DIY projects, hunting, first aid and a host of other related topics.  Just like there is an entire community of people who devote some of their time to the martial arts.  Neither is a joke.



Tez3 said:


> As for 'sheeple' it's an inaccurate made up word which doesn't convey a truthful meaning so basically it's rubbish.



You are entitled to your opinion.  It is used to convey a specific meaning and does so quite well.    

Sheeple
_People unable to think for themselves. Followers. Lemmings. Those with no cognitive ablilities of their own. _

Now I'm done with talking about the meaning of a word and other rabbit trails and would prefer to return to the OP topic.  You may continue as you wish.


----------



## tshadowchaser

EddieCyrax said:


> Will there be cells of lawlessness, sure.....will it be wide spread....I don't share your belief here....I have been in storm restoration efforts throughout the country and what i have seen in devastated areas is overall community engagement.



I truly hope you are correct on tthis and that I am wrong


----------



## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> Yes, there is an entire community of people who devote _some_ of their time to prepping.  And we enjoy discussion gear, DIY projects, hunting, first aid and a host of other related topics.  Just like there is an entire community of people who devote some of their time to the martial arts.  Neither is a joke.
> 
> 
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion.  It is used to convey a specific meaning and does so quite well.
> 
> Sheeple
> _People unable to think for themselves. Followers. Lemmings. Those with no cognitive ablilities of their own. _
> 
> Now I'm done with talking about the meaning of a word and other rabbit trails and would prefer to return to the OP topic.  You may continue as you wish.




You may think it's amusing to call people names but it's hardly kind nor correct. You are calling more than a community names you are maligning a large part of your country yet you take umbrage that I find a few people intent on 'surviving' _bemusing_. To take such a superior attitude towards your fellow countrymen you must indeed be something special, most people I find and that includes your countrymen I've found are decent human beings who want to do the best for their families, keep food on the table, a roof over their heads and to live in peace with their neighbours, to call them sheeple for these wishes I think is not just unfair but untrue. They don't 'prepare', well do they have to, perhaps they, like me would prefer to live a civilised life in a civilised society rather than as a wild animal  doing whatever is needed for survival, perhaps we want society to go forward not backwards. The quality of life is what matters not the quantity. the point too is that we live in 'free' countries where people fought to allow us to think and do within reason as we wish.
You say you are a community just like martial arts people but who on here among the martial arts 'community' is calling non martial artists sheeple? who is saying they are a generation who doesn't know their history? Who on here has written off non martial artists because they don't practise as we do?
You have taken the opportunity to not just give your views but to malign people as well, you prepare that's fine but because people don't they aren't any lesser people than you.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

EddieCyrax said:


> Even in the US....Even in large cities.....I do not recall riots in NYC when most of the eastern grid went black in 2009.....



Took a look at some stats for the 2003 & 2009 black outs.  In 2003, according to Wikipedia, 1616 stores were damaged by rioting and looting.  1037 fires were set.  3776 people were arrested and over 300 million in damages.  This was in 2 days.

In the 2009 black outs, just in NY, according to the NY times, there was almost a 100% rise in crime compared to the same period from the year before.  Additionally, there were about 60 incidents of looting.  The number of shootings were up nearly 600%.  More than twice the number of homicides.  There were more than 30,000 calls for police in the first 3 hours.  They didn't list the number of fires.  Again, this was in less than two days.  

So let's extend the situation out to 5 days or perhaps 10 as Nat Geo projected.  Does the situation get better or worse?  After two days is when the grocery store shelves are empty, water isn't coming out of the tab, sanitation has backed up, emergency services are either stretched thin or perhaps non-existent.  If the above is the result of a two day black out what will be the results of one of longer duration?


----------



## Tez3

Those figures say a lot then about that society and it's that society that needs to change rather than people accepting that this will happen they need to be working to ensure their society is one that can cope in a decent manner. However there _are _millions of decent hard working people who won't do all that shooting, rioting and looting.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> Those figures say a lot then about that society and it's that society that needs to change rather than people accepting that this will happen they need to be working to ensure their society is one that can cope in a decent manner. However there _are _millions of decent hard working people who won't do all that shooting, rioting and looting.



Working towards a politer society is fine.  The millions of decent people that didn't loot or riot are not the issue.  It is the ones that did loot, riot, rape and commit arson that are the issue.  That is a realistic issue that would need to be considered in a common sense plan.  Do you want to see that type of mayhem?  Of course not, but it would be naive to thing that it isn't a real possibility particularly in large urban centers where you have a concentration of people and a lack of supplies and services.

And the point needs to be stated that this was a mere two-day event.  Two days without power, on a local or regional basis, where the total infrastructure hasn't been compromised and people are diligently working on solving the issue is not that serious an event in the grand scheme of things.  Yet non-decent people still used it as an opportunity to inflict harm.  So that begs the question;  what type of scenario will unfold if the situation is extended, perhaps for quite some time and is on a large scale, perhaps national level?  Just in two days the regional infrastructure was compromised severely.  Not destroyed, but definitely operating under duress.  Yet on a large scale the infrastructure will be even harder hit.  Food cannot be resupplied (in the U.S. the bulk of goods an services still ultimately move by overland transportation.  If that part of the infrastructure is compromised due to lack of fuel and other issues then foods and goods resupply is compromised).  The average grocery store has three days of food on the shelf under normal circumstances.  Three hours during a panic.  And of course, with no electricity the ability to pay will be compromised i.e. credit cards and ATM machines.  Hospitals and other facilities may have generator back up, but again that is fuel dependent.  

So the question becomes;  _how will those millions of decent people that rode out a 2 day black out react during a 10 day black out when the stores have been emptied for over a week by that time?_  Honest question.  For a family that has done a bit of sensible prepping and has some food tucked away, a way to disinfect water and maintain hygiene and a way to protect themselves then perhaps a 10 day lack of power could be considered an uncomfortable vacation.  If people don't have enough food, clean water and ways to maintain hygiene, or the ability to protect themselves from those that will seek to gain advantage...it will not be pleasant at all.  Then you will have decent people panicking as well as getting sick from poor hygiene methods.  If you look at what kills people in undeveloped nations you will see that unsafe drinking water and poor sanitation methods are high on the list of what kills people.  Well, what will a large city that has no electricity, compromised infrastructure and perhaps no immediate relief become?  Again, an honest question.


----------



## Tez3

I think you missed my point. The prevention you want and the prevention that should be done are actually two different things.
I said nothing about a 'politer' society but a decent, civilised one. You have to ask yourself why are they rioting because you have riots going on over political issues as well as your 'black out' issues so perhaps the people aren't as sheeplike as you imagine?
I think your 'problems' aren't about natural disasters happening but rather political disasters leading to civil unrest which is what happened, the rioting and looting is a result of that society's mind set which needs changing obviously. 
You seem to think 'decent' people panic while the bad ones don't, in my experience people don't panic nearly as often as you imagine and that is backed up by the factual research I mentioned early, people work together to find solutions so are you also telling us Americans as well as being sheeple are also incapable of working together to solve problems? Your poor opinion of your people is disappointing.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> I think you missed my point. The prevention you want and the prevention that should be done are actually two different things.



Wonderful, and how do you propose this happens?  



Tez3 said:


> I said nothing about a 'politer' society but a decent, civilised one.



I see, so you're saying a decent, civilized society isn't also polite?



Tez3 said:


> I think your 'problems' aren't about natural disasters happening but rather political disasters leading to civil unrest which is what happened, the rioting and looting is a result of that society's mind set which needs changing obviously.



So people rioting, looting, burning and raping during a natural disaster (or a man-made disaster as per the OP) is about politics?   



Tez3 said:


> You seem to think 'decent' people panic while the bad ones don't



No, I think all people can panic given the right set of circumstances.  



Tez3 said:


> ...so are you also telling us Americans as well as being sheeple are also incapable of working together to solve problems?



The people that were looting, rioting, setting fires and raping...how well did they work together to solve the problem?  I would say that there were part of the problem.  



Tez3 said:


> Your poor opinion of your people is disappointing.



Okay, so since history has demonstrated my point during short-term disasters, you're suggesting that a longer term disaster (natural or man-made where the infrastructure is compromised) will suddenly be better?  Is this your view?


----------



## Tez3

History hasn't shown you to be 'right', what has been shown is you picked one example of rioting and looting, I can shown you a great many examples of where this didn't happen. The fact ii happens in certain places and not others says a lot about the people where it does happen don't you think? The fact is that in a great many places where there is a natural disaster people do work together to save, comfort, fed and find water for each other so why don't the people in your example? 

Again you missed my point about politics though.   

During the winters here, people are often in blackouts for days ( one town was out was for a couple of weeks) they don't start rioting or looting. I'm sure many people can tell you of circumstances where there's been blackouts and no riots, we had floods here in the West Country a couple of years ago, very bad and they lasted for weeks, no riots instead everyone helping each other. Tsunamis, earthquakes (and terrorist attacks) in Asia and New Zealand, same again no disintegration of civilisation but instead helping each other. Recent bad floods in Europe, blackouts due to electric pylons down, no rioting ( a bit of fear though the zoo animals got out and were roaming the streets). fires in Australia, Greece, France and Italy don't have riots, we were without electricity for three days after a forest and shrub  fire ( people died) in the South of France, we were looked after by local people, no riots. Did you see the Japanese rioting and looting after the tsunami there? In Nepal after the earthquake ( and things are still very bad there), in Thailand and Indonesia after that tsunami? History doesn't record disasters as being the start of civil unrest unless you are implying that is a US thing?


----------



## Tez3

Internet Scientific Publications


*"Reaction to disaster*
Factors that the public considers in reacting to a disaster warning include the significance of and understanding of the threat, and confidence (or lack thereof) in authorities. Initially, people make the determination whether or not the threat is real and they trust the source of information before taking action (Helsloot, & Ruitenberg, 2004).

During Hurricane Katrina, a large portion of the blame was placed on local, state and federal governments. Many individuals claimed the government responded to the hurricane and flooding too slowly, and felt there was no excuse for this. A survey conducted on Hurricane Katrina evacuees found that most individuals blamed the federal government, the state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans for the problems that occurred due to the hurricane and flooding. A large number of evacuees believed the federal government would have responded more quickly to rescue efforts if more of them had been wealthier and white, rather than poorer and black. Thus, many blamed the government at the local, state and federal levels for the poor disaster response in the wake of Katrina, and they felt that the federal government did not care about ‘people like them' (Survey of Katrina Evacuees, 2005).

Garrett, & Sobel (2003) believe that this perception could be at least partially true. They determined that nearly half of all disaster relief is politically motivated, rather than by need. They found evidence of a higher rate of disaster declaration by the president in states that are politically important. This leads many states to be overlooked, even when legitimate disasters are suffered, often in favor of electoral vote-rich states that experience only mild natural occurrences. There is also a link between the political affiliation of the governor and the president during election years, with more disaster declarations being made in states politically important to the president. Research has shown that flood declarations are greater during presidential reelection years. For instance, in 1996 (President Clinton's reelection year) the level of disaster expenditures was roughly $140 million higher than in previous years. The unilateral nature of the Stafford Act makes this possible by allowing the president to bypass Congress, possibly punishing or rewarding legislators.

Disaster expenditures are also higher in states that have congressional representation on FEMA oversight committees (Garrett, & Sobel, 2003). States with legislators on a FEMA oversight subcommittee were estimated to receive an additional $31 million in excess expenditures. These statistics are disheartening to average citizens who place their trust in government officials to put personal interests aside for the public good.

Expectations about human response to disasters and terrorism are not compatible with known expected behavior under emergency conditions. Panic and dysfunctional behavior may differ from natural disasters and terrorist incidents. Disaster victims do not necessarily act in shock and panic, but more likely in response to what they believe is in their best interests given their limited understanding of the circumstances. Behavior in disaster response is generally pro-social as opposed to anti-social (i.e. looting), despite what is portrayed in popular media and press coverage (Perry, & Lindell, 2003; Helsloot, & Ruitenberg, 2004).

Generally people tend to act in pro-social ways, including performing acts of rescue and providing assistance and other altruistic responses. The myth of irrational and anti-social behavior can actually hamper disaster response planning when managers believe that giving incomplete or withholding information is justified. With incomplete information people are less likely to trust the sources and comply with recommendations (Perry, & Lindell, 2003)."


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## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> History hasn't shown you to be 'right', what has been shown is you picked one example of rioting and looting, I can shown you a great many examples of where this didn't happen. The fact ii happens in certain places and not others says a lot about the people where it does happen don't you think? The fact is that in a great many places where there is a natural disaster people do work together to save, comfort, fed and find water for each other so why don't the people in your example?
> 
> Again you missed my point about politics though.
> 
> During the winters here, people are often in blackouts for days ( one town was out was for a couple of weeks) they don't start rioting or looting. I'm sure many people can tell you of circumstances where there's been blackouts and no riots, we had floods here in the West Country a couple of years ago, very bad and they lasted for weeks, no riots instead everyone helping each other. Tsunamis, earthquakes (and terrorist attacks) in Asia and New Zealand, same again no disintegration of civilisation but instead helping each other. Recent bad floods in Europe, blackouts due to electric pylons down, no rioting ( a bit of fear though the zoo animals got out and were roaming the streets). fires in Australia, Greece, France and Italy don't have riots, we were without electricity for three days after a forest and shrub  fire ( people died) in the South of France, we were looked after by local people, no riots. Did you see the Japanese rioting and looting after the tsunami there? In Nepal after the earthquake ( and things are still very bad there), in Thailand and Indonesia after that tsunami? History doesn't record disasters as being the start of civil unrest unless you are implying that is a US thing?



Those are wonderful examples, except most of your examples are comparing apples to oranges. The blackouts that affected New York also affected large portions of the North Eastern seacoast parts of Canada and several other states.  This region size event affected 55 million people.  It also compromised the infrastructure on the scale not matched by most of your example. The notable exception would be the event in Japan.  It should be noted however that not only did the nations 300,000 police officers mobilize, the military also mobilized, international support mobilized and in the affected areas Japanese organized crime also organized to prevent looting and rioting within their areas of control.  The different sects of organized crime in Japan actually organized roving patrols within their selected districts. Compound this with the fact that Japanese society is noted for being civil and polite even in times of disaster.  Unfortunately, this cannot be said of other industrialized nations.  Case in point the various gangs in New York City did not mobilize to prevent looting, they participated in it.

Again as to your other examples the infrastructure was not compromised on the same scale as what happening here in the US In the examples I provided.  It also needs to be noted that in many examples such as India where 700 million people were affected by a power grid failure a vast number of those people did not have electricity in their homes to begin with. Simply put many countries differ from industrialized nations in that they are not so dependent on the grid for their normal day-to-day operations. Unfortunately, this cannot be said for the majority of America in urban centers.

Lastly, and your examples national aid and international aid was forthcoming in short order. And normalcy was restored as quickly as was realistically possible for the situation. This thread is discussing the situation, which is very possible According to governmental authorities, where the infrastructure has collapsed, aid might not be forthcoming quickly, and, parts are only made overseas to restore the infrastructure.  Thus, it is only prudent to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, which means having enough food, clean drinking water, and medical supplies to be able to ride out the situation.  That goes a long way from removing you from people who have not prepared, and who will take advantage of the situation for their own gain.


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## Tez3

Ah the 'we always have things bigger' argument, ok you win, everything is bigger, more terrible and the rest of the world can never understand.


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## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> Ah the 'we always have things bigger' argument, ok you win, everything is bigger, more terrible and the rest of the world can never understand.



This is not what I said at all, nor was it the intent.  I'm sorry we're speaking different languages but I've done the best I can to detail my OP.  How you wish to view or interpret it is up to you.  Have a wonderfully nice day.


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## ChrisN

Please chill both of you. 

As many say.... A person is rational a group of people are not. When things go bad they go bad i'm sorry to say.


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## Tez3

ChrisN said:


> Please chill both of you.
> 
> As many say.... A person is rational a group of people are not. When things go bad they go bad i'm sorry to say.




Chris, I don't know why you think we need to chill? You don't have discussions or debates?

The fact that you think we are in a temper or in intense argument shows that your statement about people when things go bad is flawed.
When things go pear shaped not everyone goes bad. Eyam - Plague Village - Derbyshire


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## jks9199

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

*Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.  Any further issues will lead to infactions being issued.*

*jks9199
Administrator*


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## ChrisN

Individuals don't groups do.  As for


Tez3 said:


> Chris, I don't know why you think we need to chill? You don't have discussions or debates?
> .


Guess my mind set is not right at the moment. Just don't like any thing that is vaguely hostile.


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## Tez3

Neither of us was being rude to the other, neither of us were disrespectful, it's a discussion with us holding different views, nothing else, no bad feelings, no rudeness. We may not see each others point of view but there's no animosity in this at all.


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## Tez3

ChrisN said:


> Individuals don't groups do.  As for
> 
> Guess my mind set is not right at the moment. Just don't like any thing that is vaguely hostile.



No, it wasn't even vaguely hostile. An amicable disagreement.


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## Kong Soo Do

Tez3 said:


> Neither of us was being rude to the other, neither of us were disrespectful, it's a discussion with us holding different views, nothing else, no bad feelings, no rudeness. We may not see each others point of view but there's no animosity in this at all.



@ Chris and jks.

Tez is very correct.  Tez and I have discussed a great many things and usually agree.  On this particular subject we are coming at it from different perspectives, and that's fine.  I did not see Tez as being rude or disrespectful and if anyone took it that way I would submit that they have mistaken the tone and intent.  I don't believe I was being rude or disrespectful towards her, and from her comment above she feels the same way.  Just a frank discussion with honest views.  

I believe an administrative warning should have waited until she called me a 'Yank' and I called her a 'Limey' 

But for the record, we're not mad at each other.  As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I indicated that I respect her opinion in a previous post.


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## tshadowchaser

IS this thread about a day long blackout, a week long, or something that might be a forever situation?  Are we talking a regional <say 100 square mile, 200, 1000 OR MORE).
Is there any hope for recovery or help by the government or is this a case of survival at all costs for the individual and families because there is no government and no communication possible ( heaven help those teens brought up with a cell phone attached to the end of their arm  )
All of these factor have to be considered and I am seeing differing time lines being talked about side by side in this thread.
  Lets set some guidelines on the time we are talking about


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## Tez3

Kong Soo Do said:


> @ Chris and jks.
> 
> Tez is very correct.  Tez and I have discussed a great many things and usually agree.  On this particular subject we are coming at it from different perspectives, and that's fine.  I did not see Tez as being rude or disrespectful and if anyone took it that way I would submit that they have mistaken the tone and intent.  I don't believe I was being rude or disrespectful towards her, and from her comment above she feels the same way.  Just a frank discussion with honest views.
> 
> I believe an administrative warning should have waited until she called me a 'Yank' and I called her a 'Limey'
> 
> But for the record, we're not mad at each other.  As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I indicated that I respect her opinion in a previous post.




I believe for a Mod's warning to appear someone reported a post/posts. 

For the record I wasn't arguing I was explaining why I was right! NO, I'm joking, honestly! (it's a good line though)

This is a huge subject though and the post by tshadowchaser is a good one.

I wouldn't call KSD a Yank as I seem to have acquired an American adopted/foster son at my daughter's wedding last week, he's in the USAF, a mate of my son in law (he's Scottish) and a bit lonely so we are now his 'mum and dad' in the UK lol so no rude comments from me. Wedding pictures will be shown on the slightest provocation and the least excuse I will add!


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## Tez3

Sorry, I am just a very weak person who gives into temptation...........tehe.

Anyway, it's relevant look at all the sweets stockpiled in jars to be eaten!


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## Kong Soo Do

tshadowchaser said:


> IS this thread about a day long blackout, a week long, or something that might be a forever situation?  Are we talking a regional <say 100 square mile, 200, 1000 OR MORE).
> Is there any hope for recovery or help by the government or is this a case of survival at all costs for the individual and families because there is no government and no communication possible ( heaven help those teens brought up with a cell phone attached to the end of their arm  )
> All of these factor have to be considered and I am seeing differing time lines being talked about side by side in this thread.
> Lets set some guidelines on the time we are talking about



We can insert some general guidelines for the purposes of discussion.  These are arbitrary and purely for purposes of establishing a frame of reference.

A 72-hour or less event.  No doubt we've all been through something along these lines.  Generally not that big a deal with a couple of caveats;  first is if it is weather related.  In colder climates being without power for 1-3 days can be a big deal if not properly prepared for ahead of time.  Similarly, hot climates can be dangerous without power if not properly prepared, in both instances we need to be able to regulate core body temperature.  Second caveat is that in some places it has been a big deal from a security standpoint i.e. looting, riots, arson and general mayhem.  

And event lasting 4-10 days.  Several considerations here;  how intact is the infrastructure, how widespread is the event and is outside aid possible and forthcoming?  The severity of the event will be determined to a large extend by the answers to those three questions.  I will put forth the opinion that a person/family that has several weeks/months worth of food, available clean water, prior preparations with medications and general first aid will fare better than those that don't have that level of preparation.  Particularly if the infrastructure is compromised to a level that food and clean water is not available beyond the three day mark.  And again, climate can play a huge factor in this as well.  If you are prepared and have no need to leave your home to find food/water/essentials then you won't necessarily find yourself in the midst of situations where your security is compromised (unless a security situation is brought to you in which case preparations for defense is prudent, and that isn't to suggest a millions rounds of ammo booby traps in the backyard, rather common sense preparations to protect self/family/community as appropriate to the situation).

11 days and beyond.  As with above the caveats are the same and the level of severity will be determined by the questions posed above.  However, though this 'category' is somewhat vague, the point is that the longer an event is lasting the more problems will arise.  This would be the category of the OP i.e. an undetermined amount of time.  If the grid was to go down...what was the cause?  Possible scenarios are EMP (natural or man-made), cyber attack and physical attack.  None of those are far fetched as each has happened already on a more limited scale but the possibility does exist for it to happen on a larger scale.  Again, the large scale event is what the OP is discussing.  Depending upon what collapsed the grid, the solution(s) may be available, difficult or impossible.  How quickly could a cyber attack be fixed?  If physical equipment is damaged or destroyed (much of which is no longer manufactured in the U.S.) how quickly could it be obtained and installed?  If the grid were to go down on a large regional or national level the entire infrastructure is compromised, so how readily and realistically can repairs (if possible) be made while other scenarios play out?  Logical questions.  

We may never have another EMP produced from the sun or man-made.  All the cyber attacks may just suddenly stop.  There may be no further physical attacks on power stations.  But what is the plausibility of each of those?  What is the level of concern and/or prudence to prepare, as best as is reasonably possible in the event a grid-down scenario unfolds?  That is the intent of the OP.


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