# Wing CHUN Wing TSUN rivallry?



## jonesy123 (Sep 17, 2008)

I want to know why there is so much rivallry between Wing CHUN and Wing TSUN if they worked together the would both improve, what are the pros and cons of each lineage (in general)? which is viewed as more effective?


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## mook jong man (Sep 17, 2008)

I can't understand the rivalry either. 
In my eyes both systems have viable techniques that i would use.

 As far as i am concerned there are no superior arts , only superior practitioners .


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 17, 2008)

What rivalry? Have I missed the boat? 
I know that there are a lot of politics in general regarding wing chun, but I have trained with people from all different federations. There are often no wrong or right answers in wing chun. Just opinion, which is why forums like this are great. 

Any student who walks into my class gets a clean slate, no matter what school he is from. I have students who used to train WT, or from James Sinclairs school. Or students who left Kamon on bad terms but eventually ate humble pie and came back. Life's too short to hold grudges and hate someone just because they come from a certain federation. Saying that, many teachers (in martial arts in general) have very bad attitudes. One school I trained under was teaching kids bad knife defence, giving them false confidence and encouraged them to take on a would be attacker with a knife

My philosophy on those kind of teachers is just to stay clear of them.


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## geezer (Sep 17, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> What rivalry? Have I missed the boat?
> I know that there are a lot of politics in general regarding wing chun, but I have trained with people from all different federations. There are often no wrong or right answers in wing chun. Just opinion, which is why forums like this are great.


 
From my perspective (WT since 1980) ...'nuff said!


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## dungeonworks (Sep 17, 2008)

I train Wing Chun and like it....still too new to say one style is better than the other.  That said, I would be delighted and honored to have the opportunity to train in Wing Chun or Wing Tsun.  I also wish Kamon Wing Chun was not twenty ziilion miles away too! LOL


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## profesormental (Sep 18, 2008)

Greetings.

As of right now, there is much less "rivalry" than in years past.

The focus should be on the training and how it can help you, since the main bickering parties have settled as far as I know.

Or not... it doesn;t affect me anyways...

Everything as it should be.


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## gblnking (Sep 19, 2008)

Wing Chun...Tsun...Tzun...or Wing Wong Ding wouldn't matter to me. In my neck of the woods it's really hard to find a good solid school to train at.


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## daz1971 (Sep 19, 2008)

Hi this is my first proper post on here as i,m pretty new to this and dont have a great deal of experience.I did read somewhere that Wing Tsun seemed to favour the taller student and Wing Chun seemed to favour the smaller student?


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## qwksilver61 (Sep 19, 2008)

Don't take this personally,but I for one never believed that it favored tall or short people,it all depends on the student.I do know one thing,if you quickly close the gap on a taller person,you can easily control the fight,provided you know what you are doing.This can be where a grappler might control the fight (past experiences).That is why in another post I had stated that attitude and speed could be an asset,otherwise swallow your'e pride and open your mind ie;learn.As far as rivalry goes,I could never understand it,I was taught as I am sure most of you would agree,to *respect* people of other arts and disciplines,and lineages,Sifu's.Regardless of rank,Respect.So many people think that they are above other people because they just might know more,some just might have earned the right.Have you ever just wanted to share knowledge,exchange Ideas,mentor someone without the *"EGO?*" The main reason I wouldn't mind seeing Wing Tsun/Chun/Tzun hitting the ring,it might help to dispell some myths......two cents......


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## brocklee (Sep 21, 2008)

It all comes down to animosities between masters and the master of the almighty  lol ....but it's true


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## geezer (Sep 22, 2008)

daz1971 said:


> Hi this is my first proper post on here as i,m pretty new to this and dont have a great deal of experience.I did read somewhere that Wing Tsun seemed to favour the taller student and Wing Chun seemed to favour the smaller student?



If you did read that, it was garbage! There's a lot of that out there. Now there are many technical differences between the various lineages, but favoring height has never been a factor that I've heard of! In fact, most lineages of both WC and WT seek to enable a smaller person to effectively defend themselves against a larger, stronger opponent... after all, that's the essence of the legend of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Tsun as I see it. Now individual sifu's often adjust their techniques to suit their physiques. So a tall, powerful Wing Tzun stylist like  Master Emin Boztepe will fight differently from a very short man like independent WT Master Jeff Webb...Yet both are very effective and hale originally from the same lineage. I have seen similar differences in WC lineages. It's perfectly normal. Kamon says he's a large, heavy and strong man. I assume that he would move differently than his smaller WC brothers and sisters. You get my drift.


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## geezer (Sep 23, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> ...The main reason I wouldn't mind seeing Wing Tsun/Chun/Tzun hitting the ring,it might help to dispell some myths......two cents......



I totally agree...and I would take great pride in seeing a good WC/WT or VT man kick some booty out there. I think all of us would. Compared to most other systems, our differences don't amount to a hill of beans.


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## mook jong man (Sep 23, 2008)

Its very true that anatomical differences make a huge difference in the way you fight even if a tall guy and a short guy are taught by the same person. 

Myself being short and stocky i tend to go underneath peoples guards and uproot them out of their stance and hammer them with punches and knee strikes. 

But one of my classmates was a tall lanky dude who favoured thrust kicking people in the chest , or breaking through their guard by going over the top of their arms , trapping them and lop saoing them into elbow strikes .
 Both ways get the job done we just take a different road.


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## matsu (Sep 23, 2008)

being bigger me thinks i will endeavour to perfect those skills lol

thanks fr that mook

i think being diff sizes ,you have to find what works for you, still not found it yet.hee hee

matsu


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## graychuan (Sep 23, 2008)

Question......

Do any of you think the incident with Emin and William Cheung back in the 80's fueled or have anything to do with the animosity towards WC/WT/VT in general. Im not talking about WC vs WT vs VT but the whole martial arts community in general?   My opinion is that it did/does.

 Let me also make it clear that although I am a martial artist of 15 years.. I am only 2 years into WC and I probably know much less about these incidents as most of you.


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## mook jong man (Sep 23, 2008)

I'm not saying thats all he did , but he had long legs and he used them very effectively .
 Actually the hardest part i find in dealing with big Wing Chun guys is the big advantage they have with their elbows. 

They have exceptional leverage and can bring them down over the top of your arms effectively pinning them and striking you at will.

 One of the blokes i used to train with was massive and he used to do it all the time , i called him " The Hydraulic Press " once one of those big elbows was on its way down there was no stopping it .

 But apart from being a big unit the guy trained bloody hard as well .


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## geezer (Sep 23, 2008)

graychuan said:


> Question......
> 
> Do any of you think the incident with Emin and William Cheung back in the 80's fueled or have anything to do with the animosity towards WC/WT/VT in general...


 
Well it didn't help things...Except it did propel Emin to prominence. But he was headed for fame anyway. He's a great fighter, he's an actor, and he's kinda got that "rock-star" persona.

As far as rivalries go. They've always been there, and will always be there. There are just to many strong personalities involved. To paraphrase Rodney King, "Can't we all just get a beer?"


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## yak sao (Sep 23, 2008)

The EB /WC fight was a pimple coming to a head. There had always been a rivalry between Leung Ting and William Cheung. The martial arts magazines back in the '80's really hyped it up too from what I remember.


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 24, 2008)

The trouble was that William Cheung was going round at the time saying that he was the only one who was taught the third form 'properly' by Yip Man and that all other masters had learned it incorrectly or 'modified' it. Even to this day, Cheung students talk about 'traditional' wing chun and 'modified' wing chun. Its done in such a derogatory way that eventually someone was going to step up and ask Cheung to prove it.

I just find the whole thing funny. It just shows that if you think you are too cool for school, someone will eventually prove you wrong!

I've heard that most of tese differences have been buried, but personally I still think that most of the Cheung students come across wrong

All wing chun is 'modified' wing chun - Yip Man changed and developed the style he was taught and various masters have modified and changed it since. If they haven't they are either lying or stuck in the mud


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## mook jong man (Sep 24, 2008)

> All wing chun is 'modified' wing chun - Yip Man changed and developed the style he was taught and various masters have modified and changed it since. If they haven't they are either lying or stuck in the mud


 
Yeah your right there , my master added a couple of kicks to our system , a low side kick and a charging side kick . But they are useful kicks to have in your arsenal so i don't see any problems with it at all .

 Actually i'm glad he did because that kick from chum kiu where you turn and kick at the same time is a ***** to do properly.


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## graychuan (Sep 24, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> The trouble was that William Cheung was going round at the time saying that he was the only one who was taught the third form 'properly' by Yip Man and that all other masters had learned it incorrectly or 'modified' it. Even to this day, Cheung students talk about 'traditional' wing chun and 'modified' wing chun. Its done in such a derogatory way that eventually someone was going to step up and ask Cheung to prove it.
> 
> I just find the whole thing funny. It just shows that if you think you are too cool for school, someone will eventually prove you wrong!
> 
> ...


 
I can agree with all this. One unfortunate thing is that at that time...WC/WT/VT was pouplar globally even more so than here in the United States. When you make claims such as his, then have your @$$ handed to you at your own seminar, it gave a general impression to NON-Chunners that the 'grandmaster of the traditional system' was fake. It made it easy to debunk anything good said about WC/VT/WT.
Kinda gave the whole art a Black- Eye. More competent masters have been on the defense of the art ,since that incident, and that was a tragedy.


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## geezer (Sep 24, 2008)

graychuan said:


> When you make claims such as his, then have your @$$ handed to you at your own seminar, it gave a general impression to NON-Chunners that the 'grandmaster of the traditional system' was fake...quote]
> 
> Funny, that was the same impression I got at the time! LOL. But seriously, overblown egos and challenge fights, whether "fair" or not, are nothing new. Some such fights eventually become part of the folklore of the martial arts. What about Bruce Lee and Jack Man Wong, or the many inter-style fights involving WC and other systems in Hong Kong in the fifties and sixties, ...heck who knows what happened when that mean old lady Ng Mui and her vicious little student, Yim Wing Chun, were terrorizing young boxers in Fatshan... like that poor love smitten fellow who aked Wing Chun for a date. She clobbered the poor guy!
> 
> ...


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 25, 2008)

It is good in a way, because it is rare to get 'wannabe's' coming into wing chun. As Master Chan says - people tend to be connoisseurs of martial arts nowadays. People roughly know what they want. They see fighting on youtube or on cagerage or through films and decide what they want for themselves

People taking up wing chun generally want an explosive martial art suited for self defence (ie we don't get many people in asking to do tournaments etc)


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## brocklee (Sep 28, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> It is good in a way, because it is rare to get 'wannabe's' coming into wing chun. As Master Chan says - people tend to be connoisseurs of martial arts nowadays. People roughly know what they want. They see fighting on youtube or on cagerage or through films and decide what they want for themselves
> 
> People taking up wing chun generally want an explosive martial art suited for self defence (ie we don't get many people in asking to do tournaments etc)




True!  It's hard to sell something that is difficult to see or isn't flowery.


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## naneek (Oct 1, 2008)

god i hope they start wearing their pants properly soon, it just looks silly


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## Si-Je (Oct 9, 2008)

Poor Emin and Chung.  Will they never live that down?
Chung isn't the only WC man out there.  I think that this "rivalry" between WT and WC exists only with those who choose to carry it out.  Like some family feud.  Only, it's old and moldy now.  Let it rot.

There are some pretty fundimental differences between the WT and WC styles of Wing Chun, and people have their preferences.  Unfortunately, when people have preferences they tend to believe that theirs is the best for everyone.
We mix both.  Both rock!


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## dungeonworks (Oct 9, 2008)

What are the major differences between WC and WT?  What was changed?  I have only seen partial footage of Emin Boztepe instructionals and am still a begginner in Wing Chun (7 mos.).  In the footage, from what I could see, I have noticed the stances apear to be more centered on the weight distribution and apear more boxing-like.  What else is there?  Is it of the Leung Ting branch?


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## Si-Je (Oct 9, 2008)

WT tends to be way more aggressive with chain punching.  Which is good.
WC more focus on deflection, chi, etc.

WT uses bong sau right away in application, takes a bit longer to polish up.  And uses Tan Sau for deflection of hook punches, or just chain punches into opponent when they open up themselves for a haymaker.
WC uses dai sau until student is ready for turning dai sau into bong sau giving you more forward force with bong sau.  (and is great for all kinds of hook punch defenses on its own)

WT seems to use advanced stance all the time, or more than not.
WC seems to favor basic stance most of the time.

I think Si lim tao is the same for both, but chum kui seems a bit different.
(haven't learned bui gee yet.)

WC not ground fighting, but way more emphasis on rooting in stance.
WTzun anti-grappling, WTsun "borrowed anti-grappling"
both equally important in defense against a throw, or takedown.
both take dedicated time to master and utilize properly.

WC uses more spade hand on opponent when working behind or beside attacker to bring them down for a smaller defender.
WT seems to favor the neck takedowns of a taller man.  Which work for me when I throw a heel kick or spade hand to get a taller attacker to my height.

WC seems to focus more on kicking, punching, and deflecting at the same time when attacking and defending than alot of WT I've seen.  But that could just be preference to the teachers and the videos they put online.


Don't know much of William Chun WC, just train from Sifu Fung WC from hubbie.


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## dungeonworks (Oct 9, 2008)

Thank you for the quick and detailed answer...much appreciated!


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 10, 2008)

Why are people still talking about the differences between WC and WT? 

They are the same style

Wing Chun is the name of all kung fu that derives from VT, WT, WC etc. 

Wing Tsun was called Wing Tsun so as not to generalise (ie how would you distinguish between Kamon wing chun and Leung Tings wing chun?). The name was created to make it stand out, comercially and for respect to Leung Tings teachers

Similarly Master Kevin Chan named his wing chun federation 'Kamon Martial Arts', despite being a wing chun school

If every federation was called 'wing chun' we wouldn't know what school was what and the slight differences that they incorperate.

It is like me asking what the differences between Shotokhan karate and karate are!!


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## Si-Je (Oct 10, 2008)

Your right Kamon, it is to differiciate between different masters styles and "marketing".
But.
As much as I don't like Ling Ting, I would not want his WT to be confused with Kamon WC.  His WT is good.  And he doesn't use BJJ to supplement his ground defense.
So.  He's not a nice guy, but his WT is pure and works well enough to defend against grappling or whatever without crosstraining too much.  Thus, watering down his WT.

You have to make WC/WT your own when you become of a level enough to intrepret it enough for yourself.  My hubbie's WC/WT is different than that of his two masters, just because he combines both of their knowledge into one.  Without adding other styles to it.

Thus, double your pleasure!
Double the Wing Chun! lol!

Also, he takes his own fighting experience from real world usage in the military, competition, and street encounters and adapts it as needed.  As WC/WT was origionally ment to do, evolve.  But, evolve as Wing Chun, not as a conglomeration of other arts, with Wing Chun mixed into it.  (then you'd have Krav Maga! lol!)

But, seriously.  Don't take me too seriously.  I'm just hyped up about... well... Novemeber.  Can't wait!
WOOOOOT!


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## matsu (Oct 11, 2008)

i didnt realise that untill the 60s ish wing chun was a closed circle with selected people being taught only.
so probably in historical terms that isnt long for a split into wc/wt/vt/vc etc to accept each others differences and still acknowledge their similarites and effectiveness of each.
with the influx of so many new people it wont be long before that happens.
 karate has so many "schools" and althought they dont mix and/or fight each other thay all accept each other as karate,just variation of styles.

its never about the style,its more about the person, i think thats true of every endeavour isnt it?
matsu


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## dungeonworks (Oct 11, 2008)

matsu said:


> ...karate has so many "schools" and althought they dont mix and/or fight each other thay all accept each other as karate,just variation of styles...



That's not quite so accurate in my neck of the woods Matsu.  Karate argues politics and history as much as Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun.  Much of the karate in these parts (Michigan USA) use Pinan kata's or Heian Katas and variations of a few shared kata but most styles include their own unique kata with distinct differences in training and wll as fighting.  For example, the Okinawan systems near my locality have a heavy focus on using forms and Bunkai (interpretation of kata) with little to no sparring of any type where as my old Koeikan school used full contact sparring with Judo throws/takedowns/subs and Aiki wristlocks.  We did kata too, just not as the main focus and application of our karate.  Our fighting was much different than the kata-heavy schools.

I know Wing Ving Chun Tsun gets a lot of flack for it's politics, but brother I tell you it is far from absent in Karate....or Tae Kwon Do, Modern Arnis and the Fillipino Martial Arts (of all types), Jeet Kune Do, or any other martial art that an attempt on unifying, organizing, or condensing a system into a standardized curriculum.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 13, 2008)

Definately. The karate I train in is very adamant that y=they are different from most styles of karate. Neil Groves (cage fighter and good martial artist) always talks about how his karate is different from most of the karate that is out there

My friend (who is a lot more experienced in karate than I am) mentioned that in ancient Japan, you would be taken apart for mixing up styles of karate. 

In the Western worl, it isn't as important. Just like people who ask you what wing chun is think all kung fu is the same

The karate styles are very different from each other. There are even elements of movements also found in wing chun that have cropped up in my karate (stamp kicks, vertical punch, etc)

As for Sije - that was a fairly odd comment. I presume you didn't mean to phrase it as such 
'I would not want his WT to be confused with Kamon WC. His WT is good. And he doesn't use BJJ to supplement his ground defense'

I took it to mean that you are saying Kamon wing chun is not good. I find that very laughable. And had you ever trained under Kamon or seen Kevin Chan in action you would be absolutely blown away. I have seen wing chun guys all around the world in person and in video clip and most of them are disappointing

Leung Ting is obviously a good martial artist (or he would not have what he has). But my advice to you would be to get out and see what is around before you proclaim that WT is the best thing going. Because I assure you right now there is better out there. Certainly there is better than Kevin Chan (although I haven't met them yet) but the worst thing you can do as a martial artist is to say that your art is the best in the world

Leung Ting doesn't need BJJ?? I think this has been discussed a million times before. All I would say is - ask Leung ing (or your WT instructor) how they recover when they have been dragged to the floor

I'm sure they will give you a fine demonstration of a person coming in (when they see them) and attacking them 'tournament style'. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about a Saturday night when someone comes up behind you and pulls you to the floor in a choke

For the record, Kevin Chan is one of the best people I have seen at keeping their feet - he knows how to deal with a person coming at him to tray and take him down using both wing chun or BJJ. But the point is that in fights you don't get the luxury of knowing that the person is going to drag you down, trip you, sweep you etc.


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## Si-Je (Oct 13, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> As for Sije - that was a fairly odd comment. I presume you didn't mean to phrase it as such
> 'I would not want his WT to be confused with Kamon WC. His WT is good. And he doesn't use BJJ to supplement his ground defense'
> 
> I took it to mean that you are saying Kamon wing chun is not good. I find that very laughable. And had you ever trained under Kamon or seen Kevin Chan in action you would be absolutely blown away. I have seen wing chun guys all around the world in person and in video clip and most of them are disappointing
> ...


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## Dansel (Oct 14, 2008)

from Si Je 
"WT tends to be way more aggressive with chain punching. Which is good.
WC more focus on deflection, chi, etc.

WT uses bong sau right away in application, takes a bit longer to polish up. And uses Tan Sau for deflection of hook punches, or just chain punches into opponent when they open up themselves for a haymaker.
WC uses dai sau until student is ready for turning dai sau into bong sau giving you more forward force with bong sau. (and is great for all kinds of hook punch defenses on its own)

WT seems to use advanced stance all the time, or more than not.
WC seems to favor basic stance most of the time.

I think Si lim tao is the same for both, but chum kui seems a bit different.
(haven't learned bui gee yet.)


WC uses more spade hand on opponent when working behind or beside attacker to bring them down for a smaller defender.
WT seems to favor the neck takedowns of a taller man. Which work for me when I throw a heel kick or spade hand to get a taller attacker to my height.

WC seems to focus more on kicking, punching, and deflecting at the same time when attacking and defending than alot of WT I've seen. But that could just be preference to the teachers and the videos they put online."
<<<<

I think wat u mean here Si Je is that the types of WC/WT u no of train this way, the WC/WT i practice follow a different path.

WC - more aggressive, lots of chain punching. Sui Lim tao closer to yip man slt(as seen in the 8mm recordings a week b4 his death), doesn't have set spade hand from behind, just watever works and feels right to you
WT - More defensive. chum kiu 100% weight on back leg alot and more exagerated movement.

advanced stance and basic stance????
WT uses bong sau right away in application, takes a bit longer to polish up. And uses Tan Sau for deflection of hook punches, or just chain punches into opponent when they open up themselves for a haymaker?????



Trained in WC much longer than WT so please excuse the gaps.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 14, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> But personally, I don't need or want BJJ to supplentment my WC/WT. And I will NEVER use it as ground fighting defense.
> Again, this is personal preference, not a declaration that what I take is better than everyone else. And opinion that I like what I take and learn better than other MA's.


Thats fair enough, but like I said, I would love to see your groundwork stuff. 
I have NEVER seen any chunner use wing chun to escape from the floor
If you have any videos please post them
Or as I mentioned before, if you have you or your hubby keeping your feet against a high ranking BJJ artist (purple belt or above), please post it


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## geezer (Oct 14, 2008)

[_quote=Kamon Guy;1053687]
Leung Ting is obviously a good martial artist (or he would not have what he has)...but the worst thing you can do as a martial artist is to say that your art is the best in the world...

For the record, Kevin Chan is one of the best people I have seen at keeping their feet - he knows how to deal with a person coming at him to tray and take him down using both wing chun or BJJ.. .quote]_

Whoa, people, let's stop the sweeping generalizations. WT, WC, VT, or whatever, you'll find as many perspectives as practitioners. I think Kamon is on the right track with the comments quoted above. 

About the WT factions (there are three in North America)--It's hard to generalize regarding favored techniques. At the advanced levels they include a lot of stuff not shown on Youtube. The same is true of WC. But technique preferences aside, they all share common concepts of _simplicity, efficiency, economy of motion, and borrowing your opponent's force._ Nobody said you you couldn't apply these concepts on the ground, adapting to the situation... OK, some people say it. Sifu Leung used to get like that with us, unless the innovation was _his_ idea. I, especially, got chewed out a lot. But I can't help it. I like to try new things.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is WT/WC have some solid techniques that deal with grappling, but our specialty is mid to very-close range stand up fighting. Our long range stuff and ground stuff has not been developed to the same level of detail. What's wrong with investigating BJJ and other arts, if they have moves that are _compatible with our core concepts?_


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## dungeonworks (Oct 14, 2008)

geezer said:


> ...Anyway, what I'm getting at is WT/WC have some solid techniques that deal with grappling, but our specialty is mid to very-close range stand up fighting. Our long range stuff and ground stuff has not been developed to the same level of detail. What's wrong with investigating BJJ and other arts, if they have moves that are _compatible with our core concepts?_



Thanks for posting that...confirmation that I'm not alone in my opinion.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 15, 2008)

geezer said:


> Anyway, what I'm getting at is WT/WC have some solid techniques that deal with grappling, but our specialty is mid to very-close range stand up fighting. Our long range stuff and ground stuff has not been developed to the same level of detail. What's wrong with investigating BJJ and other arts, if they have moves that are _compatible with our core concepts?_


 
Exceptionally put. I'm not saying that a wing chun guy who goes to ground is doomed. I'm just saying that a little BJJ or wrestling etc helps a lot

Master Kevin Chan is one of the best wing chun guys I know, and yet he spent years training in other arts just to explore other ideas to compliment his already exceptional wing chun foundation

If he saw anything during his 30 years of kung fu training to suggest that kung fu could counter any grappling technique, he wouldn't have spent the last ten years training it!!

He knows what works and doesn't, and always mentions that wing chun is your best chance in a streetfight

When you see how good he is at other martial arts, you start to realise how good wing chun is. But it isn't infalliable

I think people think that we teach half the class wing chun and half the class BJJ
We do not

I have rarely taught any BJJ in my class and it is only really covered in seminars. Kevin Chan will teach you the entire wing chun syllabus and basically cut the BS and tell you what works and what doesn't

We even had two guys over from Hong Kong who had trained under Ip Chun for the past three decades. Even they mentioned that wing chun is pretty limited on the floor because you have no base to work from

All I would say to those who truly believe that they do not need BJJ - take any big guy that you know and ask him to pin you down. If you can free yourself in a sensible fashion (ie so you don't leave yourself open), then I give you my respect. Remember that any strikes you do - your opponent can do back so you really will have to think about covering your guard so that you don't get caught
Good luck


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## Si-Je (Oct 16, 2008)

I see what ya'll are saying, but...
we have videos of me and hubbie using anti-grappling against 10+ year experienced BJJ and wrestling fighters and defending beautifully.  Some fighters came to our school to learn and "test us out", and only studied 2-3 years BJJ or MMA, but when they found that they couldn't just submit hubbie or I then they didn't know what to think.  Some became students, most just never came back.  (bummer too, we were very polite, and nice_

But, if we put these videos online people just assume that the opponent was "compliant" or unexperienced thus making the videos worthless.
That's why we're trying to do the cage thing.  Then this claim cannot be made.

This stuff works.  Traditional WC works against these types of fighters too.  It just takes longer to perfect it.  (2-4 years study in WT/WC whatever, making your first level would be preferable.)
Again, depends on the student and the teacher.

We learn what to expect from a BJJ or grappler, but we don't focus on learning how to do thier technique.  That would take away time from learning ours.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 17, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> I see what ya'll are saying, but...
> we have videos of me and hubbie using anti-grappling against 10+ year experienced BJJ and wrestling fighters and defending beautifully. Some fighters came to our school to learn and "test us out", and only studied 2-3 years BJJ or MMA, but when they found that they couldn't just submit hubbie or I then they didn't know what to think. Some became students, most just never came back. (bummer too, we were very polite, and nice_
> 
> But, if we put these videos online people just assume that the opponent was "compliant" or unexperienced thus making the videos worthless.
> That's why we're trying to do the cage thing. Then this claim cannot be made..


It is very easy to see on videos how good someone is
I'm not expecting you to go up against Royce Gracie and have the best fight we've ever seen, but just an idea of how you deal with people on the ground
As I have said before, chunners can hold their feet very well. In previous demos, Master Chan challenged me to throw him to the floor in any way I wanted. Using wing chun stancework and movement, I couldn't do it. He even got so cheeky as to stand on one leg in the end

The point is, it can be very easy to keep yoru feet if you train it, but it is those times when the fight does go into a clinch or to the ground when you don't expect it to. 

If you are punched in the head and go to the floor and your opponent gets on top of you, what do you do to recover for example? 

If you won't post it, we can't see what you are talking about
There will always be criticism, no matter how good/bad your techniques are. The point is that we are on a discussion forum having a debate about grappling and wing chun, and your video could possibly end it once and for all. 



Si-Je said:


> This stuff works. Traditional WC works against these types of fighters too. It just takes longer to perfect it. (2-4 years study in WT/WC whatever, making your first level would be preferable.)
> Again, depends on the student and the teacher.
> 
> We learn what to expect from a BJJ or grappler, but we don't focus on learning how to do thier technique. That would take away time from learning ours.


If you don't learn the principles or how to do their technique, you can't really say 'we learn what to expect from a BJJ artist'. My training is a blue belt in BJJ and he tries something different everytime

But in Kamon we aren't that interested in learning how to outgrapple a grapple. As I have previously said, you only need the skills to get back into a position where you can use your wing chun


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## qwksilver61 (Oct 17, 2008)

Alright...bag on me if you want to,but Sifu Emin does teach groundfighting,to what caliber or degree? Still delivers.....I have often noticed that here in this forum that people often spout off....usually...I suspect it's people who have some know how..some who have something to prove without any regard to furthering the art.Also without respect to a true master of their profession.All of you...please do your homework.GGM Leung Ting is not just another Wing Tsun personnage, he is the real deal.I only want people to realize,that I would have the same respect towards your Sifu or GM.Most could not stand foot to foot with these people,I know.With respect to Sifu Kevin Chan,GM Leung Ting,Sifu Emin .. the list goes on....please, we all have something to share....in this Wing Chun Forum.No accusations.... or finger pointing..help me out here...Si-Je,
don't know what your beef is with Gm Ting,but have you ever considered attending one of his classes or better yet seminars before dealing judgement?Just a question and not a stab at you....I tend to like your posts,but I did not expect such negativity towards GM Ting.He does not deserve any discredit at all.To me there should be no rivalry..respect should be shared by all who practise this art..... the proof is in the pudding.....are you a pugilist or a voice?This is a fighting art people...do you train to truly fight..or practice out of "convenience?"Opinion only....take no offense....


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## qwksilver61 (Oct 17, 2008)

OK  I would like to un-do this post before it starts a fire..I still don't understand why people dislike Wing Tsun so much,it's seems to me that GM Leung Ting & Sifu Emin take  a lot of hits,can anyone tell me why?I'm curious about the big push for BJJ, isn't this WT? pardon me for being on the defense.....


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## dungeonworks (Oct 18, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> OK  I would like to un-do this post before it starts a fire..I still don't understand why people dislike Wing Tsun so much,it's seems to me that GM Leung Ting & Sifu Emin take  a lot of hits,can anyone tell me why?I'm curious about the big push for BJJ, isn't this WT? pardon me for being on the defense.....



I hope you are not aiming this at me.  I was only asking legitimate questions I am truly curious about.  In a perfect world, I'd study both systems as well as others outside WC/WT.


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## qwksilver61 (Oct 18, 2008)

To be truthful,no I am not aiming this at anyone,I apologize If I offended anyone with that earlier post.The postings I've seen that have to do with GM leung Ting and the Sifu Emin are usually negative.I just want to know why.Is there anything about these styles or linneages that people do not like? It's just a question that deserves an answer,not meant to offend.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 20, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> OK I would like to un-do this post before it starts a fire..I still don't understand why people dislike Wing Tsun so much,it's seems to me that GM Leung Ting & Sifu Emin take a lot of hits,can anyone tell me why?I'm curious about the big push for BJJ, isn't this WT? pardon me for being on the defense.....


 
Dude, you haven't insulted anyone. I have seen and trained with Leung Ting a cpuple of times and have 'trained' with a few of his instructors. 

I don't like some of the things that Leung ting has said in the past, that is all. And the way he runs his school like a headhunting corperation. 

His technical skill is there and knowledge of wing chun is there, but I just can't find it in my heart to trust the guy
I would direct your attention to the article named 'Leung ting - The Big Fake' that has been posted in several martial art forums. There is indeed lots of goosip and talk about him and as you have pointed out, people should really see the guy before they pass judgement

As for Bosteppi - I like the guy and like his training clips
I have heard good things about him and would relish the chance to see him in person. If he teaches groundfighting then I only have more respect for him


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## qwksilver61 (Oct 20, 2008)

Thank you for the honest response.....I have trained with Sifu Bozteppe,I believe he is headed in that direction(groundfighting)..at least that Is what I observed while attending one of his seminars,same Wing Tsun....diferent approach....as far as GM Ting..when you're that well known around the world...being a celeb.does come with a price,what I personally experienced..definitely quality instruction...


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 21, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> Thank you for the honest response.....I have trained with Sifu Bozteppe,I believe he is headed in that direction(groundfighting)..at least that Is what I observed while attending one of his seminars,same Wing Tsun....diferent approach....as far as GM Ting..when you're that well known around the world...being a celeb.does come with a price,what I personally experienced..definitely quality instruction...


 
Bozteppi has always sparked my interest and I think that if he goes into groundfighting it will make him very famous


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