# Adding ground fighting to Okinawan karate



## Explorer (May 10, 2008)

OK.  There's been a lot of talk about whether ground fighting appeared in the traditional or classical Okinawan arts.  The discussion is interesting only from a historical perspective as it doesn't answer the question of whether we should be teaching ground techniques within the body of our curriculum.

So, SHOULD we be teaching ground fighting in karate.  The follow up question is, of course, how might we go about adding ground fighting to our extant systems?

For me it's obvious that in order to teach relevant self defense, ground techniques are a MUST.  I'm a wrestler from waaaayyy back so I include some wrestling concepts.  I'm also acutely aware that Jujitsu is very popular today and my guys might conceivably face these techniques so the instructional team is training in Jujitsu and we're adding the concepts to the curriculum as we learn.

That pretty much sums it up ... READY? ... GO!

xo


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## terryl965 (May 10, 2008)

Sure add it, remember to always have someone qualify to show techniques that you may not be aware of. Best of luck in the training.


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## exile (May 10, 2008)

If you're a karateka, you don't want to be on the ground. But you may find yourself there, if your technique isn't up to snuff (or the fortunes of combat go against you, always a possibility, no matter how good you are). So training for the ground is necessary... but only in the sense of training for methods for getting _off_ the grounds, onto your feet before the other guy, ready to apply your striking arsenal. A wrestler, judoka or jujitsu practitioner is working with a strategic approach which welcomes the ground, which wants to stay there, and which a huge chunk of the art's technique set is built around. But in the karate-based MAs, those of Okinawa, Japan and Korea, and in most of the CMAs that I've seen in action, the strategic über-principles are built around being vertical and delivering strikes. Controlling moves are part of the story, sure, but only to the extent that they bring the attacker into the range of a terminating strike (or sequence leading to a terminating strike). 

My own guess is, it's much more straightforward to develop to work with a single set of strategic principles rather than two radically different or even opposing ones. For karateka (in the most general sense), I think training for the ground means learning enough about how to function there to be able to break whatever techniques the attacker is using to keep you on the ground, if you've had the misfortune to wind up there, and restore the fight to the vertical... with you getting there before he does.


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## Explorer (May 10, 2008)

Exile; I agree wholly.  The extent of our teaching is how to get back to your feet asap.  But perhaps for different reasons.  Once on the ground, the bad guys friends (fiends?) tend to add their two cents with their boots.  We tend to put the emphasis on mobility ... the ability to move (away from the danger zone primarily).

I have had one sensei who taught striking techniques from the ground ... in order to create an opportunity to escape and stand up.

xo


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## exile (May 10, 2008)

Explorer said:


> Exile; I agree wholly.  The extent of our teaching is how to get back to your feet asap.  But perhaps for different reasons.  Once on the ground, *the bad guys friends (fiends?) tend to add their two cents with their boots. * We tend to put the emphasis on mobility ... the ability to move (away from the danger zone primarily).
> 
> I have had one sensei who taught striking techniques from the ground ... in order to create an opportunity to escape and stand up.
> 
> xo



The part in bold is the too-often neglected aspect of any real streetfight: you have to count on the bad guy having friends of the same sort ready to land on you. You can't get away if you're on the ground; you have a fighting chance if you're on your feet. That's just the way it is. Sounds like you are using a very well-thought-out model of what real fights are like in your curriculum!


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## Explorer (May 10, 2008)

Hmmm.  Just checking everybody's profile I see we're all codgers!  Apparently we're waay past needing to be out on a Saturday night!  Congratulations, gents!  We've made it!



xo


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## terryl965 (May 10, 2008)

Explorer said:


> Hmmm. Just checking everybody's profile I see we're all codgers! Apparently we're waay past needing to be out on a Saturday night! Congratulations, gents! We've made it!
> 
> 
> 
> xo


 
Yes we are, well I think it is time for my medicines:erg:


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## exile (May 10, 2008)

Explorer said:


> Hmmm.  Just checking everybody's profile I see we're all codgers!  Apparently we're waay past needing to be out on a Saturday night!  Congratulations, gents!  We've made it!
> 
> 
> 
> xo



But we can still raise a bit of hell when called upon to do so, I'll bet! :lol:


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## Explorer (May 10, 2008)

So, if I put the concepts of 'raising hell' and 'taking my medicines' together we get "Raising My Medicines" which, as we all know, is a reference to  "Raising My Glass" (translated directly from ancient Norweigan: Raising My Animal Horn Filled With an Intoxicating Beverage) ... I'll be mixing a medicinal dose of something called a Sidecar.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 11, 2008)

Explorer I think it is *great* what you are doing in adding grappling to your karate.  Just make sure you learn from a qualified instructor so that you are not missing the small details which make a big differance in the long run.


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## Never_A_Reflection (May 11, 2008)

Well, I don't believe I qualify as a codger, and I don't have medications to take along with everyone else, but I do have some input on ground fighting .  Since my karate instructor was a judoka before he was a karateka, we practice both karate and judo, and when we practice judo, we work about 50/50 groundwork and standing.  It ends up with being a good striker that knows how to sweep, throw, and takedown an opponent, and know what to do while your down there.  I really like the combination, myself, and I have to say that full judo is a hell of a workout, so if nothing else, you'll have more stamina than the other guy


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## Explorer (May 11, 2008)

For clarification:  I was a judoka before I started my wrestling career (grade school to college) ... and, yes, I am training with a qualified JJ instructor.  For perspective, my martial arts training started in 1969 and continues today.  I'm a 4th Dan in Shorin Ryu ... have also studied Tae Kwon Do, Aiki Ju Jitsu and Isshin Ryu; I've been exposed to Goju, Ryu Kyu Kempo and most of the other Shorin styles ... so I'm not really a newbie.

Oh and we have a very, very qualified judoka on our board who helps us with throws and some ground technique.  It's really cool to see him break down Okinawan kata from a Judo basis!

BUT, what I'm really interested in is ideas on how we, as karateka, should be adding ground fighting concepts OR  the best practices of dojos who are already adding throws and ground fighting.  

xo


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## exile (May 11, 2008)

Explorer, have you ever taken a look at any of Iain Abernethy's stuff on grappling (_Karate's Grappling Methods_, _Throws for Strikers_) or his free e-books and his dvds on bunkai for various classical katas, such as the Pinan series? Abernethy is very explicit about his belief that the katas encode SD techs meant to be applied in vertical combat. But in a lot of his work he points out that there is often a straightforward translation of controlling moves designed for the vertical combat domain to horizontal fighting (always, as he emphasizes, with the intention of getting you back on your feet before the bad guy, as per what we were talking about above). Some what he's talking about is probably applicable to the question you're pursuing...


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## kidswarrior (May 13, 2008)

exile said:


> Explorer, have you ever taken a look at any of Iain Abernethy's stuff on grappling (_Karate's Grappling Methods_, _Throws for Strikers_) or his free e-books and his dvds on bunkai for various classical katas, such as the Pinan series? Abernethy is very explicit about his belief that the katas encode SD techs meant to be applied in vertical combat. But in a lot of his work he points out that *there is often a straightforward translation of controlling moves designed for the vertical combat domain to horizontal fighting (always, as he emphasizes, with the intention of getting you back on your feet before the bad guy*, as per what we were talking about above). Some what he's talking about is probably applicable to the question you're pursuing...


As you, exile, and several others have said, this seems to me to be the purpose of TMA ground techniques. It might have been intended for stand up fighting, but when it hits the fan ya never know what Lady Luck might dump on you (slippery surface, etc.) that could land one on his or her back (it's happened to me ). So being aware of ways that what we've already trained might be useful in a prone position is very helpful and realistic, imho.


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## punisher73 (May 13, 2008)

I think the big key is to keep the principals of karate the same.  By that if we take an okinawan art like Goju-Ryu what does it want to accomplish while standing?  How does it go about accomplishing this?  It is an art that deals with close in striking to incapacite.  It's locks and throws are designed as a secondary objective to further damage a joint or injure that attacker when slammed to the ground.

I think it is important to recognize your styles key concepts so your groundfighting (different from grappling) is using those concepts to blend and flow.  I think alot of people mistake groundfighting and using those methods to get up and away from an attacker with "grappling" (yes, there is a big layover on the moves) in which they decide to stay on the ground and work through the hiearchy of positions to get a submission hold.  

I think the most applicable strategy is what is termed in MMA as "sprawl and brawl".  Chuck Lidell uses it.  He knows enough about the ground and positional escapes to get back up to his feet and continue the fight.  He does not attempt to stay on the ground and fight there.


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## Explorer (May 13, 2008)

Good points, Punisher!  One area where I diverge from JJ technique is 'keyhole locks' ... ONLY because they keep me on the ground, with my hands tied up while my opponent's friends massage my kidneys with their shoes!  

I'm looking to get off the ground asap or sooner!


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## tellner (May 13, 2008)

I asked that question about twenty five years ago, when I did Uechi Ryu. The teacher was a Godan with a Master teaching certificate from the mother school in Fatenma, Okinawa.

He said "That's not how we fight. If you to be prepared for the ground take some Judo. That's what I did."

It's not our specialty, so go talk the people who are good at it. That was good advice then, and it's good advice now.


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## fuyugoshi (May 14, 2008)

tellner said:


> He said "That's not how we fight. If you to be prepared for the ground take some Judo. That's what I did."
> It's not our specialty, so go talk the people who are good at it. That was good advice then, and it's good advice now.



It's perfect advise. If, in old times, Okinawan martial arts training was complemented with Okinawan sumo, tegumi, shima or any other wrestling art practiced in Okinawa in those days, plus kobudo; in modern times martial arts training include karate (standing), judo (throws and ground) and kobudo (weapons). For instance, Miyazato Eiichi sensei, head of Goju Ryu Jundokan, was a very well known judoka.

In other words, we can relive the debate about whether or not there was ground-fighting in old sparring practice or techniques ingrained in classical kata --and we will probably not reach a consensus; or we can accept that cross-training was an integral part of any martial art, and that most dedicated martial artists probably had some background in tegumi, shima or Okinawan sumo (if not, they probably looked for it) and kobudo. In short, for modern karateka, adding ground-fighting to their arts is a necessity, but that is not new in Okinawan karate. It used to be that way.

This doesn't mean that all karateka practiced tegumi in 19th century, and it doesn't mean that all karateka practiced judo in 20th century. Lots of seniors in most karate organizations have trained in judo (I know, it is an impression based on my limited experience, but there are no statistics about it that I know).


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## chinto (May 15, 2008)

there has always been some ground fighting techniques in Okinawan Karate...  but most are aimed at getting to your feet fast before his buddies kick your head or ribs in...

remember that Jujitsu men were on Okinawa when Karate was developed... so its not reasonable to think that they did not know or teach some ground work.. a lot of the Japanese systems do not teach them.. and some Okinawan teachers do not teach them as they teach mainly sport.


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## hpulley (May 15, 2008)

I'm just a beginner but I tried out some karatedo and judo dojos and took their free one day classes.  Originally I'd intended to pick one dojo but then I decided to do the cheap "see how you like it" terms at my favorite karatedo and judo dojos.  While my karatedo dojo does do some ground work (they tossed in some break falls earlier this week for some reason), obviously I get a much better throwing and ground work lesson doing randori and rolling (the judo dojo I attend also does BJJ) than in karatedo.  But on the other hand, since they only teach striking in kata in judo it seems a bit one sided so doing kicks, strikes, blocks and locks in karatedo seems to be a great compliment.  Doing karatedo (with some classical jujutsu) and judo/BJJ seems like a good combo.  The karate dojo also does kobudo but I don't know if I have time for weapons too; I'll see.  I also need to see if my "masters" age body can take this many lessons a week, ;-)

The funny thing, even as a beginner, is when I'm in a class thinking, "what would I do in this situation in the _other_ class?"  For example, the basic karatedo deashi (forward foot movement) methods in the standard forward fighting stance seem quite prone to judo foot sweeps but I'm just a beginner so I'm sure there are more advanced techniques that I'll be taught.


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## punisher73 (May 15, 2008)

fuyugoshi said:


> It's perfect advise. If, in old times, Okinawan martial arts training was complemented with Okinawan sumo, tegumi, shima or any other wrestling art practiced in Okinawa in those days, plus kobudo; in modern times martial arts training include karate (standing), judo (throws and ground) and kobudo (weapons). For instance, Miyazato Eiichi sensei, head of Goju Ryu Jundokan, was a very well known judoka.
> 
> In other words, we can relive the debate about whether or not there was ground-fighting in old sparring practice or techniques ingrained in classical kata --and we will probably not reach a consensus; or we can accept that cross-training was an integral part of any martial art, and that most dedicated martial artists probably had some background in tegumi, shima or Okinawan sumo (if not, they probably looked for it) and kobudo. In short, for modern karateka, adding ground-fighting to their arts is a necessity, but that is not new in Okinawan karate. It used to be that way.
> 
> This doesn't mean that all karateka practiced tegumi in 19th century, and it doesn't mean that all karateka practiced judo in 20th century. Lots of seniors in most karate organizations have trained in judo (I know, it is an impression based on my limited experience, but there are no statistics about it that I know).


 
Good point, there is an interesting discussion on Iane Abernathy's site on this same topic. That Gichin Funakoshi talks about in his biography that the Okinwan wrestling and how it was a popular sport that everyone participated in.  It also discusses that Kano wrote a report saying that karate was judo, and how Gichin may have down played the grappling aspects of karate to set it apart from judo and make it it's own thing.  Old style judo also taught strikes and the line between judo and karate was very thin.


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## Explorer (May 15, 2008)

Heck, there is a Judoka on our board who will SHOW anyone how much punching and kicking there is in Judo.  No leg is bypassed when looking for a reap, sweep or anything else.  A half hour of his horseplay leaves my legs as sore as free fighting.  

If you ever get the chance ask a mature judoka or ju jitsu(ka?) to interpret your forms from their perspective ... it is illuminating.


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## Perpetual White Belt (May 15, 2008)

Explorer said:


> If you ever get the chance ask a mature judoka or ju jitsu(ka?) to interpret your forms from their perspective ... it is illuminating.


 
Ever as a FMA practitioner to interpret your forms?  Just as illuminating.  I'll actually be doing a seminar this weekend at an Isshin-Ryu school, and I plan on covering just that subject. 

Anyway back to the subject.  If you have a good grasp on grappling basic you pretty much know enough to avoid getting into to trouble.  I've found that knowing enough about wrestling and Jujutsu, I can pretty much stay on my feet or get back to my feet with very little trouble and it seems to me that you've got a good program going.


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## Explorer (May 15, 2008)

Actually, one of my sensei, Dusty Seale, is trained in Modern Arnis ... directly under Remy.  It really gets our thinking out of the box.


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## chinto01 (May 16, 2008)

I have recently started taking bjj lessons to compliment my Shorin Ryu training. One of the things I have discovered is how much I love to be on my feet. It has opened my eyes however to the fact that a lot of the stuff you do on your feet can also be accomplished on the ground with some minor alterations. 

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## arnisador (May 16, 2008)

Explorer said:


> Actually, one of my sensei, Dusty Seale, is trained in Modern Arnis ... directly under Remy.  It really gets our thinking out of the box.



As a Mdoern Arnis isntructor and former Okinawan karateka, I know just what you mean!


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## Errant108 (May 16, 2008)

Explorer said:


> Good points, Punisher!  One area where I diverge from JJ technique is 'keyhole locks' ... ONLY because they keep me on the ground, with my hands tied up while my opponent's friends massage my kidneys with their shoes!
> 
> I'm looking to get off the ground asap or sooner!



Why would you eliminate key locks?  Wouldn't the trauma it can cause be worth it?


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## Explorer (May 16, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> Why would you eliminate key locks?  Wouldn't the trauma it can cause be worth it?




Hi Errant,

I wouldn't eliminate the locks as they are useful as an example of what you might face in case your attacker is trained in sport JJ.  The trauma caused by breaking an arm or dislocating a joint MAY be worth it given the right circumstances.  However, the time it takes to apply the lock and the fact that it tends to use both hands leaves me defenseless against the bad guys buddies (and they ALL have them).  So, while I'm applying a keyhole lock to the bad guy ... his buddies are applying blunt force trauma to my head with their boots. 

In my experience the moment the bad guy appears to be losing is when his friends begin their attacks.  My opinion is that a defender must get off the ground immediately -- if not sooner.

xo


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## Darkside (May 22, 2008)

from what I've seen at the dojo where I've been training there is plenty of grappling, joint locks and groundwork in okinawan karate. We study ryukyu hon kenpo kobujustu which is a very traditional style of shorin-ryu. I guess it all depends on what okinawan style you're training in, the instructors and what they've been taught. Alot of other shorin-ryu schools i've seen don't have nearly as much grappling or groundwork implemented in their systems. Most of that ground work centering on attacks to stun or deter an opponent so you can get back on your feet and fight. I'm sure alot of schools on okinawa, especially those who started training for sport and competition stopped teaching the ground aspects of the art as they didn't apply to what they were using the art for. Either way on the street i'd hate to find myself on my back trying to grapple with someone while his buddies stomp my head in..lol


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## Perpetual White Belt (May 31, 2008)

Darkside said:


> from what I've seen at the dojo where I've been training there is plenty of grappling, joint locks and groundwork in okinawan karate. We study ryukyu hon kenpo kobujustu which is a very traditional style of shorin-ryu. I guess it all depends on what okinawan style you're training in, the instructors and what they've been taught. Alot of other shorin-ryu schools i've seen don't have nearly as much grappling or groundwork implemented in their systems. Most of that ground work centering on attacks to stun or deter an opponent so you can get back on your feet and fight. I'm sure alot of schools on okinawa, especially those who started training for sport and competition stopped teaching the ground aspects of the art as they didn't apply to what they were using the art for. Either way on the street i'd hate to find myself on my back trying to grapple with someone while his buddies stomp my head in..lol


 
Ah, the karate of Odo Seikichi Sensei... I believe Odo Sensei trained in Judo at some point in his life, but my brain isn't functioning at full capacity right now.  However, I believe the amount of grappling involved would depend on the instructor.  The kata were mostly striking.  Wansu has what Odo Sensei would call a Judo throw in it, but other than that Chinto and Seisan, I don't recall any other kata that had these techniques overtly in them.  If you understand grappling you could interpret some of the movements as joint locks or throws though.


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## Omar B (May 31, 2008)

In my experience my old Master used to do a judo class first thing Saturday mornings.  If you wanted to learn judo in an informal way that's what we did, plus you end up spendig all Saturday at the dojo, love it!  First judo, then go to lunch, then seido, then another hour break, then some heavy sparring from an hour.


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## chinto (Jun 5, 2008)

Perpetual White Belt said:


> Ah, the karate of Odo Seikichi Sensei... I believe Odo Sensei trained in Judo at some point in his life, but my brain isn't functioning at full capacity right now.  However, I believe the amount of grappling involved would depend on the instructor.  The kata were mostly striking.  Wansu has what Odo Sensei would call a Judo throw in it, but other than that Chinto and Seisan, I don't recall any other kata that had these techniques overtly in them.  If you understand grappling you could interpret some of the movements as joint locks or throws though.



there are a lot of throws in gojushiho, and in many of the pinan kata and meany in annanku as well if you know where and how to look for them.  remember at least for the traditional Okinawan kata there are at least 5 techniques for each of the moves, and grabbing and grappling, locks, and throws are common ones in a lot of kata.


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## Darkside (Jun 12, 2008)

Perpetual White Belt said:


> Ah, the karate of Odo Seikichi Sensei... I believe Odo Sensei trained in Judo at some point in his life, but my brain isn't functioning at full capacity right now.  However, I believe the amount of grappling involved would depend on the instructor.  The kata were mostly striking.  Wansu has what Odo Sensei would call a Judo throw in it, but other than that Chinto and Seisan, I don't recall any other kata that had these techniques overtly in them.  If you understand grappling you could interpret some of the movements as joint locks or throws though.



From what I know he did train in judo when he was younger. Most of the kata as you said are strike intensive but do contain joint locks/escapes in the bunkai. Most of the extensive grappling i've seen has come in the self defense techniques with judo like throws, joint locks, takedowns, leg/arm locks on the ground. Having taken BJJ and judo previously it was rather suprising seeing such things being implemented at an okinawan karate dojo. It really made me realize how watered down some okinawan karate had become elsewhere. That and of course the bogu kumite :supcool:


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## fuyugoshi (Jun 19, 2008)

Explorer said:


> BUT, what I'm really interested in is ideas on how we, as karateka, should be adding ground fighting concepts OR  the best practices of dojos who are already adding throws and ground fighting.
> 
> xo




In old times, people practiced Okinawan wrestling and karate. Wrestling was a popular sport in the islands, pretty much like baseball in the USA now. During the XX century, judo replaced Okinawan wrestling, so a lot of karate instructors also hold rank in judo.

So you have three ways:
a) teach karate and judo at your dojo.
b) include judo or wrestling in your karate class (groundfighting hour, or groundfighting day)
c) practice all your techniques in three scenarios: standing, on your knees and on your back.
d) all of the above.

Instead of judo, you can teach wrestling or bjj. In my opinion, karateka doesn't need to be an expert in groundfighting, but needs to develop enough skills to survive a real common street fight. If the trainee expects hardcore fights ahead in his future, then his training must be different than the training of a common student who attends classes because of recreational or fitness motivations.


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## Zendokan (Jul 3, 2008)

Two words: DAIDO JUKU.

Look at youtube and wikipedia for more information.


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## Perpetual White Belt (Jul 5, 2008)

Darkside said:


> That and of course the bogu kumite :supcool:


 
Yes! Thank you Nakamura Sensei!!!


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## fuyugoshi (Jul 6, 2008)

Zendokan said:


> Two words: DAIDO JUKU.
> 
> Look at youtube and wikipedia for more information.



That is Japanese mma evolved from hard contact karate, right?


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## Zendokan (Jul 6, 2008)

fuyugoshi said:


> That is Japanese mma evolved from hard contact karate, right?


 
Yeah, you're right, it started with Kyokushin Karate and Judo, nowadays it's these two with Wrestling, JuJutsu and BJJ. Saying that it's MMA is a bit overkill since there are more rules in Daido Juku then in MMA. It's more an alround hard-contact style. You could see it more as "what would a Kyokushin karateka do when he gets grabbed?" type of style.
Alot of fun, even if I say it so myself.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=M5AvCcLwaJQ&feature=related

greetz,

Zendokan


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## Hyper_Shadow (Jul 10, 2008)

Original Tode is not restricted to standing up with your opponent and exchanging blows. It's just not sensible. Especially if you throw sand at someone and the wrestle them down to deliver some very decisive conclusion to an encounter. It is also highly unfeasible to believe that every movement in Kata is striking. Therefore it should be very logical to assume that Okinawan Tode has in fact a diverse and effective array of grappling techniques that should be taught.


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## allenjp (Jul 10, 2008)

I don't mean to stir the pot, but...

There have been a lot of comments made here about limiting your groundfighting training to only being able to get back up once taken down. No offense but, bad idea.

Now, before you get started on me about real SD vs. sport fighting situations, let me say that even though my training up to now has been almost all groundfighting, I agree that the ground is the last place you want to be in a SD scenario. I get that, and I am not advocating that anyone go getting on the ground in that situation. 

However, if you do get taken down despite your best efforts, or if you fall down, slip, or whatever else, and you're up against someone who knows what they're doing on the ground, or is just plainly a huge strong behemoth, good luck getting back up. It just aint as easy as it seems, and it is impractical to expect to rely on that as your only means of defense on the ground. Even if you do manage to get back up, it's highly likely you may go down again. The plain and simple fact is this: it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to avoid being taken down by someone who knows how to do it, and is determined, or even by someone who is just plain bigger than you. 

So to cut it short, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If someone gets you on the ground you had BETTER know what you are doing down there. Getting back up is great, and should be the first thing you do. But it is just impractical to think that you will always be able to get back up.

All that said I congratulate you guys for even thinking about incorporating groundfighting into your training. Many don't, and also many groundfighters don't train stand up because they are convinced that their way is better. In my opinion, cross training can only make you better.


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## tellner (Jul 10, 2008)

Allenjp, you make a good point. If you're down you have to know how to handle yourself there. Absolutely. But submission wrestling is only one of the effective forms of groundfighting. Some of the RBSD, police defensive tactics and even martial arts have ways of dealing with the situation that stress different aspects of conflict on the ground. Some of them are remarkably mobile on the floor. Others stress protecting and deploying weapons. And a few of them have very good methods for disengaging and getting back up. 

It's not always easy, but they have a good enough real-world track record that they can not be completely discounted. A lot depends on what the other guys are trying to do to you. In my painful experience it includes things like standing there and trying to kick you to death as often as not. I haven't met too many who tried for a submission. That may just be luck on my part. But I can only go on what I've experienced and what people with more interesting lives report.


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## allenjp (Jul 15, 2008)

Yes tellner I agree submission groundfighting is not the end all-be all to being on the ground. I am just saying that whatever method you choose to train it should be viable for working ON THE GROUND, because you simply cannot realistically rely on being able to get back up every time. 

BTW, I do not train to go for "submissions" in SD situations. The critiques on training in "submissions" is always perplexing to me. What is commonly referred to as "submission" is not a move or technique. It is the act of your opponent asking for mercy by acknowledging that he is not willing to offer further violence to you, and you responding by granting the mercy requsted and not continuing to apply the technique until serious injury or death is the result. If I apply juji gatame in a SD situation, I am not looking for my opponent to tap, I am going to break his arm beyond recognition so that he can no loner use that arm against me, and then I am going for a choke or for his other arm, and continuing the fight. If someone attacks me with a knife and I am skilled or lucky enough to disarm them and apply Hadaka Jime I will not let go when they start tapping. I will continue to apply it until they are unconcious so that I can disable them from hurting me while they are still unconcious, or in an extreme situation, I might not let go until they are dead. 

We also work extensively on techniques for defense on the ground with a standing opponent.


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## chinto (Jul 25, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> Original Tode is not restricted to standing up with your opponent and exchanging blows. It's just not sensible. Especially if you throw sand at someone and the wrestle them down to deliver some very decisive conclusion to an encounter. It is also highly unfeasible to believe that every movement in Kata is striking. Therefore it should be very logical to assume that Okinawan Tode has in fact a diverse and effective array of grappling techniques that should be taught.


Yes, and traditionaly they were and are .. at our dojo the grapling that is there is tought.. as well as the broke kumite that is also traditional!


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## fuyugoshi (Jul 29, 2008)

Hi Allen



allenjp said:


> There have been a lot of comments made here about limiting your groundfighting training to only being able to get back up once taken down. No offense but, bad idea.



In an ideal situation, people should train standing fighting as well as groundfighting; however, it is time consuming, and we all have to prioritize. If the student has the time to get also deep instruction in groundfighting, judo, muay thai, and whatever effective art is available, good for him; however, most people train three times a week in sessions of 1.5 hours each: total of 4.5 hours a week. Each karate instructor must decide how much class time a week is going to be destined to groundfighting, how much time is going to be to weapons (traditional and modern) training, and how much to standing training. Under those conditions, the basic skill on the floor is how to get on your feet again.



allenjp said:


> However, [...] The plain and simple fact is this: it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to avoid being taken down by someone who knows how to do it, and is determined, or even by someone who is just plain bigger than you.


 
True. That is why karate is the art of running away as fast as possible 
But, if while running away, you end up on the ground, then you must remember all you training: I mean, kata is full of takedowns, throws, sweeps, locks, etc. Everytime you drill one takedown, you must drill at least a counter. So you need to learn how to apply the technique, and what to do if it is applied onto you. Just that is a lot of groundworking, although is not like the BJJ matches or wrestling matches.



allenjp said:


> [...] If someone gets you on the ground you had BETTER know what you are doing down there. Getting back up is great, and should be the first thing you do. But it is just impractical to think that you will always be able to get back up.



I totally agree. However, the first problem with too many karate schools is that they don't practice the takedowns that are/were part of their systems, so they have forgotten how to take someone down, and what to do if somebody else tried to do the same with them.

In other words, crosstraining is desirable, training more hours a week is a need, but rediscovering their own systems is a must! At the end, the problem is time!


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## chinto (Aug 1, 2008)

Not all styles of Karate or instructors have forgotten the grappling and brakes and throws and locks that are a part of the system.. the style I study teaches them all still... many do not, but we do.


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## allenjp (Aug 1, 2008)

Fuyugoshi, I do not disagree with anything you said...


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## searcher (Aug 2, 2008)

chinto said:


> Not all styles of Karate or instructors have forgotten the grappling and brakes and throws and locks that are a part of the system.. the style I study teaches them all still... many do not, but we do.


 

As does My Karate instructor and myself.    We have been fortunate enough to all have a heavy influence from outside sources as well.    If you are not practiced in all aspects of combat, you will fail to defend when faced with a particular facet.   You don't have to take it to the gorund or even like training for the ground, but you had better have a good idea of what can happen on the ground.


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## chinto (Aug 5, 2008)

allenjp said:


> I don't mean to stir the pot, but...
> 
> There have been a lot of comments made here about limiting your groundfighting training to only being able to get back up once taken down. No offense but, bad idea.
> 
> ...


there is ground fighting techniques in the kata.. also like I said getting up is what you want to do. but you for instance go for a mount.. I am going to grab your nuts and rip them off or take your eyes or throat out.... I assume if you attack me on the street you wish to take my life. so its going to be over very quickly... no sportsman like behavior at all. most of the grapplers I have talked to shudder at the mention of fingers grabbed and broken calfs bitten and eyes and groins grabbed and hooked... a lot of the stuff that works under rules is not as effective when you take the fighter safety rules out.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 6, 2008)

chinto said:


> there is ground fighting techniques in the kata.. also like I said getting up is what you want to do. but you for instance go for a mount.. I am going to grab your nuts and rip them off or take your eyes or throat out.... I assume if you attack me on the street you wish to take my life. so its going to be over very quickly... no sportsman like behavior at all. most of the grapplers I have talked to shudder at the mention of fingers grabbed and broken calfs bitten and eyes and groins grabbed and hooked... a lot of the stuff that works under rules is not as effective when you take the fighter safety rules out.




...  umm... no.

If a good grappler mounts you you will be doing no such thing, even if they weren't pounding your head into the pavement one of the first and most important things done from just about any position is to kill the arms.

But, lets suppose you did get a hold of someones junk from that position, your hands are down and you are on your back, there is a good chance they will free their junk by punching you in the face, which will bounce of the ground, until you let go.

Now, also remember that while you can use fouls, so can the grappler.  Grapplers are not bound by magical law that stats that they must follow all of the rules anymore then karate practitioners are bound by the rules of point fighting.  So who will be in a better position to use those fouls, the one that is in control on the ground or the one being controlled?


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## chinto01 (Aug 6, 2008)

I would just like to add my 2 cents worth here. I have been studying Shorin Ryu for the past 20 years. This past year on the side I have added BJJ to my training. Why? To tell you the truth I thought it would be fun and it is. What have I realized from my training to date? First in the beginning I hated to be on the ground, you feel like a fish out of water. Now I am a very big supporter of Okinawan karate but I can tell you that our focus is not on the ground. It is focused on the stand up aspect of fighting. Can the principles of stand up fighting be brought to the ground? Absolutely! But if you do not practice them on the ground then they will be useless because your comfort level is not there. So if you were to ask me which is better the seasoned grappler or the stand up guy in the ground I may respond and ask you which way the wind is blowing, or I may use a line from one of my favorite movies "anyone can be beaten on any  given Sunday."


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## Brian S (Aug 6, 2008)

chinto said:


> there is ground fighting techniques in the kata.. also like I said getting up is what you want to do. but you for instance go for a mount.. I am going to grab your nuts and rip them off or take your eyes or throat out.... I assume if you attack me on the street you wish to take my life. so its going to be over very quickly... no sportsman like behavior at all. most of the grapplers I have talked to shudder at the mention of fingers grabbed and broken calfs bitten and eyes and groins grabbed and hooked... a lot of the stuff that works under rules is not as effective when you take the fighter safety rules out.


 
 Sorry, there is no historical evidence pointing to groundfighting in kata. Only recently has 'tegumi' and related efforts speculated about groundfighting in karate to make up for what the art lacks. There is no need to validate karate as a whole art unless you are trying to sell something 'Abernathy, McCarthy' etc...


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## Andrew Green (Aug 6, 2008)

Tegumi always struck me as more of a Sumo like sport then a ground fighting one from what I have read about it.


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## Brian S (Aug 6, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> Tegumi always struck me as more of a Sumo like sport then a ground fighting one from what I have read about it.


 
 Exactly, and it was seperate from karate practice imo. There is no farming and fishing in kata either, so it's ok.


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## NDNgirl4ever (Aug 12, 2008)

Adding ground fighting is a great idea. I study Shorin Ryu, and at my dojo we study grappling/judo techinques on certain nights. My sensi is friends with another sensi who teaches Judo, and he comes in occasionally and teaches/practices with us.


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