# Martial arts style v style rant



## Kickboxer101 (Nov 6, 2016)

I was thinking what to call this thread and this isn't my rant its off a YouTube video I saw I know the title of the video says boxer vs wing chun but the end bit is very important he's 100% right.

A question he's asked is would he challenge someone saying a boxer would beat a wing chun guy and in summary says no why would I who cares what have I got to prove. He's so right there's so much style v style nonsense these days that people need to realise its very unlikely 2 trained martial artists are going to throw down in the street so who cares what style would best what just enjoy what you do.

Me I do kenpo and kickboxing now maybe those styles aren't as effective as some in some people's opinion and that's fine your entitled to it. Maybe a wrestler or a jiu jitsu guy would destroy me but here's the thing I don't plan on fighting a jiu jitsu guy anytime soon so why does it matter if he can beat me or I can beat him. If we never fight no one will ever know. We all do our own thing some of us will be better than others some of our styles will work in different ways in different situations doesn't make it right or wrong. We all do our own thing and if it makes us happy and we have fun that's all that matters. That's why I'll never call anyone out about training at a McDojo because if they enjoy their training even though the instructors not great who am I to tell them their school is a fraud.

Here's the video


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## Chaleira (Nov 6, 2016)

The ole style vs Style topic. Yep, I agree with just do what makes you happy. Every art has their purpose which is not always the same as another's. Just, train hard, have fun and be the best you can be at what you do... and at the same time keep an open mind. Not everyone wants to be a fighter, not everyone cares to use their style for self defense purposes. Some people just want something to do and like the idea of martial arts. Some people usually just end up doing what works for their lifestyle and not necessarily for the streets... and that's okay in my opinion. People know where to look if they desire something more.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 6, 2016)

I myself have a big problem of falling into this nonsense myself. I been getting better and better at not letting it get to me so much. In the end it comes down to my time and money and where I prefer spending both.

I been taking a Kenpo karate offshoot style called Shou shu which from my understanding is essentially Tracy Kenpo with some Jiu-jitsu esque grappling and trapping technique. It is very colored with Chinese themes and has animal form influences but in the end we are punching and kicking, blocking and parrying and doing lots of grappling as well.

So that is good enough for me. I don't really care what they name it because it has things in it that I enjoy and look forward to learning more of.


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2016)

And if someone does want to be a fighter. You just let them walk under a bus?


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 6, 2016)

drop bear said:


> And if someone does want to be a fighter. You just let them walk under a bus?



I've found that telling people x style sucks do y style instead is very counter productive for style x.


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> That's why I'll never call anyone out about training at a McDojo because if they enjoy their training even though the instructors not great who am I to tell them their school is a fraud.




So is that resolution  of from now on? 



Xue Sheng said:


> Sad part about that guy is I believe he still has a lot of students buying into his shtick





Kickboxer101 said:


> Even sadder part is the guy himself probably believe it





Xue Sheng said:


> I believe he does actually. Sadly all he has successfully done is to teach his students to fall down on que.... and many of them now believe it too.





Kickboxer101 said:


> Well at least they know how to break fall


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I've found that telling people x style sucks do y style instead is very counter productive for style x.



Oh. look the bus is a much more effective instructor. But it can be an uncompromising one.


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## Chaleira (Nov 6, 2016)

drop bear said:


> And if someone does want to be a fighter. You just let them walk under a bus?


I would hope if  someone wanted to be a fighter, they would have the common sense to research and seek out schools to get them where they want to be to fulfill their personal goals, and that the instructor would help him achieve his goals, and if that instructor can't, then don't bullshhhh them around.


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2016)

Chaleira said:


> I would hope if  someone wanted to be a fighter, they would have the common sense to research and seek out schools to get them where they want to be to fulfill their personal goals, and that the instructor would help him achieve his goals, and if that instructor can't, then don't bullshhhh them around.



People really dont. I am afraid.

California Doctor Sentenced To 14 Years In Prison For Fake Cancer Cure


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 6, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So is that resolution  of from now on?



Taking multiple posts out of context and linking them to what Kickbox101 posted means what exactly?


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 6, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Taking multiple posts out of context and linking them to what Kickbox101 posted means what exactly?


God knows funny thing is he brings this up every time I post something and that was from that video I believe you posted of the guy using his chi to touch people and they fall on the ground which isn't even a McDojo or real martial arts so it doesn't even count to this. I find it pretty strange that he had to look for a old thread to find a couple of comments


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## Chaleira (Nov 6, 2016)

drop bear said:


> People really dont. I am afraid.
> 
> California Doctor Sentenced To 14 Years In Prison For Fake Cancer Cure



You're right that some people don't.. sad I know. Do you suggest people publicly call out the instructors of such schools and the styles they teach... or preach to the students desiring to learn martial arts?

Also are we talking legitimate frauds now, or just styles that may be better than another style at a specific purpose?


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 6, 2016)

drop bear said:


> And if someone does want to be a fighter. You just let them walk under a bus?


If someone wants to be a fighter then they can make their own choices on what they train to be a fighter nothing to do with me


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 6, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So is that resolution  of from now on?


Will you please stop trying to cause arguments it's very boring and anyway I've obviously got opinions as everyone does but if someone says to me "I train at...." I won't say to them oh no don't do that school sucks the teachers a fraud. But this is a place to discuss martial arts so ill say my opinions here. Also half of those comments are not mine


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2016)

Chaleira said:


> You're right that some people don't.. sad I know. Do you suggest people publicly call out the instructors of such schools and the styles they teach... or preach to the students desiring to learn martial arts?
> 
> Also are we talking legitimate frauds now, or just styles that may be better than another style at a specific purpose?



real and honest discussions about martial arts might help.


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Taking multiple posts out of context and linking them to what Kickbox101 posted means what exactly?



That was multiple posts in sequence so that people could follow the conversion. 

It means this thread shows that kickboxer 101 participates in exactly the sort of commentry that he is saying is not cool.


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Will you please stop trying to cause arguments it's very boring and anyway I've obviously got opinions as everyone does but if someone says to me "I train at...." I won't say to them oh no don't do that school sucks the teachers a fraud. But this is a place to discuss martial arts so ill say my opinions here. Also half of those comments are not mine



If you post a thread where you say something isnt right and that you dont do it.

 And, well you do.

 How is that wrong for me to bring up?

And the comments that are not yours are there because you responded to them. That was your conversation. like we are having a conversation now. Some of the comments are mine and some are yours.

And this even before i start on old mate master wong there. who also did exactly the same thing. Compared styles,es and then said comparing styles does not matter.

I mean seriously guys one or the other. Pick a stance and stick to it.


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## Steve (Nov 6, 2016)

I think before you can learn to fight against multiple people, you need to learn to fight effectively against one.  And before you can learn to fight against someone with a weapon, you need to learn how to effectively fight against someone who is unarmed.   

You don't start with calculus,  you learn trigonometry first, and algebra before that.   

And so, it makes sense to me that styles which sound too good to be true probably are.   There are numerous great reasons to train martial arts, but If you think fighting skills are relevant for self defense, learning to fight should be a solid first step.  and pointing to styles or schools which do or song seems okay to me.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 6, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Oh. look the bus is a much more effective instructor. But it can be an uncompromising one.



You and others can hold MMA and styles in it to a higher light if you'd like, but people aren't really going to care. People don't wake up in the morning and say "Hey lets impress Dropbear and Steve and Hanzou and gain their approval." 

They are going to do what they enjoy and not everyone enjoys what you do, same way many people may not enjoy the things I do.


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## Steve (Nov 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> You and others can hold MMA and styles in it to a higher light if you'd like, but people aren't really going to care. People don't wake up in the morning and say "Hey lets impress Dropbear and Steve and Hanzou and gain their approval."
> 
> They are going to do what they enjoy and not everyone enjoys what you do, same way many people may not enjoy the things I do.


Very reasonable.   But if they wake up and say, "Hey I want to learn to fight," they may want to learn to, you know, fight.  Which isn't the same as learning kata or learning chi sao.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 6, 2016)

Steve said:


> Very reasonable.   But if they wake up and say, "Hey I want to learn to fight," they may want to learn to, you know, fight.



And who is teaching people how to not fight? This argument here is pointless because no "martial arts" place is going to teach you literally nothing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 6, 2016)

Steve said:


> Very reasonable.   But if they wake up and say, "Hey I want to learn to fight," they may want to learn to, you know, fight.  Which isn't the same as learning kata or learning chi sao.


Then we have to define "fight". If they want to get into an octagon, they need to go to an MMA gym. If they want to compete in a Karate tournament, they need to find the right kind of Karate school. If they want to fight in a boxing ring, they need to find a boxing gym. If they want to learn fighting skills they can use in self-defense, they need to pick something that seems effective for that purpose and appeals to them, personally - which could actually include any or all of those choices, plus some that don't compete.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> And who is teaching people how to not fight? This argument here is pointless because no "martial arts" place is going to teach you literally nothing.


No, but there are some I'd argue don't appear to do anything useful toward fighting or defensive skills. If what they teach is bad enough, it won't be useful (and can even be detrimental, if the students actually believe it will work).


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## Chaleira (Nov 6, 2016)

Steve said:


> Very reasonable.   But if they wake up and say, "Hey I want to learn to fight," they may want to learn to, you know, fight.  Which isn't the same as learning kata or learning chi sao.


I can agree, not the same, though they do have their specific place in training. I think the individual at this point though has a very important decision to make. to continue training at this school, or to switch gyms to learn how to "fight"? 
Also, the instructor at such a school, does he know how to bridge the gap between training drills designed for specific goals and fighting and if so, can he effectively pass it on to students.
Also, the student... how well do they pick things up? Could they even realize fighting application if it were right in front of their face clear as day?
If not is it the instructor's fault for not being able to drill it into the student... or the student's fault for not applying themselves.... or the "style's" fault for not being complete?


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> You and others can hold MMA and styles in it to a higher light if you'd like, but people aren't really going to care. People don't wake up in the morning and say "Hey lets impress Dropbear and Steve and Hanzou and gain their approval."
> 
> They are going to do what they enjoy and not everyone enjoys what you do, same way many people may not enjoy the things I do.



And that is fine.  I don't think i have ever told people that they have to do or enjoy any martial art.

And of course if i have and you can find it and quote it.  I will just say it is out of context.

Ok.  Let me tell you a story. (And yes it can be taken as true or not because it is a story)

This story happened in proserpine at a place called mixed dojo.  There was a father and son team who opened a MMA school and set about promoting their style as people do and even challenging our guys to fights.

And look we are a competition school and we do fights so it is all in good fun. But the guys mixed dojo were challenging were four or five fights in and just decemating people.  So they were turned down.

The thing is the father had no real idea about what he was doing and the kid of course just believed his dad was the reincarnation of bruce lee. And so we let them train happily away thinking that pro fighters have ducked their challenges. So they must be doing something right.

Anyway we hold a show and invite the mixed dojo guys to participate. And we find them some first time fighters and everyone is happy.

Exept mixed dojo really wasn't very good, had no ring experience and no idea what they were getting into.  And an actual fight is kind of a bit different to the idea of a fight.

So the kid got his jaw broke and the dad wouldn't leave his corner after the first round.

I have no issue letting people train there thing or even letting them find out if they have the stuff or not.

But if i discuss how there might be deficiencys in someone's training it is not always because i want to stand taller than anyone else.  Sometimes i just see the bus coming.


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2016)

Chaleira said:


> I can agree, not the same, though they do have their specific place in training. I think the individual at this point though has a very important decision to make. to continue training at this school, or to switch gyms to learn how to "fight"?
> Also, the instructor at such a school, does he know how to bridge the gap between training drills designed for specific goals and fighting and if so, can he effectively pass it on to students.
> Also, the student... how well do they pick things up? Could they even realize fighting application if it were right in front of their face clear as day?
> If not is it the instructor's fault for not being able to drill it into the student... or the student's fault for not applying themselves.... or the "style's" fault for not being complete?



Yeah.  But how often is all the tools laid out in front of you so you can make that honest assessment?


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## Hanzou (Nov 6, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> I was thinking what to call this thread and this isn't my rant its off a YouTube video I saw I know the title of the video says boxer vs wing chun but the end bit is very important he's 100% right.
> 
> A question he's asked is would he challenge someone saying a boxer would beat a wing chun guy and in summary says no why would I who cares what have I got to prove. He's so right there's so much style v style nonsense these days that people need to realise its very unlikely 2 trained martial artists are going to throw down in the street so who cares what style would best what just enjoy what you do.
> 
> ...



You truly can do whatever you like. However, if you KNOW you have a weakness, it would be a good idea to get that weakness taken care of in the event (however unlikely) that someone could exploit it and do you harm.

Obviously, the chances of a skilled grappler attacking you is rare, however you're also a man. If you were a woman, those chances increase exponentially, and should be seriously taken into consideration.

Which leads us back to your post; Certainly if you practice whatever and you do it just for fun, you definitely don't have anything to prove to anyone. The problem comes around when someone who legitimately is looking for a martial art to defend themselves (especially women) and they take up a style that is clearly not going to protect them on the most basic level. I'm pretty confident that I could hold my own versus a boxer/striker, or a skilled wrestler, mainly because I've fought against both many times. Some of them were highly skilled individuals who were trying to knock me unconscious. I've also been rolling against highly skilled grapplers for the better part of a decade now, and many of them are former collegiate wrestlers who are also highly ranked in Bjj or highly experienced in MMA (or both).  Again, doing that type of consistent fighting has given me a level of confidence in my ability to handle a wide variety of unarmed threats should they happen to come my way. My ability to survive two self defense situations in the last couple of years only enhances that confidence.

That never happened in the previous styles I took. In my previous MAs we did a lot of kata and light sparring. We did drills full of unrealistic responses to unrealistic attacks. Fortunately, I only got beat by a boxer in the safety of my dojo, not the street. If it had been the latter, I shudder to think the level of damage he could have done to me because I lacked the tools to defend myself on even the most basic level.

In short, if I had studied a martial art for years and said that any highly skilled karate guy could walk up and beat the crap out of me, I'd have a serious case of buyer's remorse.


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## Hanzou (Nov 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> And who is teaching people how to not fight? This argument here is pointless because no "martial arts" place is going to teach you literally nothing.



There's plenty of places that advertise that they're going to teach you how to fight, but teach you how to dance in funny pajamas instead.

You'd be surprised how many black belts we get that can't fight their way out of a paper bag on their feet. When we get them on their backs, it's like watching a little beetle trying to right itself.

I've seen people freeze up and freak out when you do something as simple as grabbing their lapel and beginning to push or pull. You would think that they have some invisible field around themselves that has suddenly been shattered.


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## Hanzou (Nov 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> You and others can hold MMA and styles in it to a higher light if you'd like, but people aren't really going to care. People don't wake up in the morning and say "Hey lets impress Dropbear and Steve and Hanzou and gain their approval."
> 
> They are going to do what they enjoy and not everyone enjoys what you do, same way many people may not enjoy the things I do.



Oh I disagree. They do care, which is why so many styles that have nothing to do with MMA or related styles come up with ridiculous and silly counters to things like the Guard, or the Muay Thai Clinch.


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 7, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> You truly can do whatever you like. However, if you KNOW you have a weakness, it would be a good idea to get that weakness taken care of in the event (however unlikely) that someone could exploit it and do you harm.
> 
> Obviously, the chances of a skilled grappler attacking you is rare, however you're also a man. If you were a woman, those chances increase exponentially, and should be seriously taken into consideration.
> 
> ...


Yes I knew you'd be one who has a problem with that idea


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 7, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> There's plenty of places that advertise that they're going to teach you how to fight, but teach you how to dance in funny pajamas instead.
> 
> You'd be surprised how many black belts we get that can't fight their way out of a paper bag on their feet. When we get them on their backs, it's like watching a little beetle trying to right itself.
> 
> I've seen people freeze up and freak out when you do something as simple as grabbing their lapel and beginning to push or pull. You would think that they have some invisible field around themselves that has suddenly been shattered.





Hanzou said:


> Oh I disagree. They do care, which is why so many styles that have nothing to do with MMA or related styles come up with ridiculous and silly counters to things like the Guard, or the Muay Thai Clinch.



You guys are getting the topic mixed up here. It isn't mcdojo teachings vs real instruction. It is style vs style. The problems you and drop bear bring up have nothing to do with a style problem, that is an instructor and training problem.

If you have bad training or have access to good training and just don't apply yourself. Then that is where you will end up with poor results. You also misunderstand adaptation for caring about people's opinions. People are practicing more take down and Clinch defense because they are more popular to come across now due to the popularity of mma, they don't do it for your or anyone elses approval.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah.  But how often is all the tools laid out in front of you so you can make that honest assessment?


More to the point, a fairly new student wouldn't often be capable of making that assessment. This is where I think competition serves the student best. When someone comes to my program, what I do looks impressive perhaps. My students appear to be learning well, and appear to be able to handle common attacks at a reasonable level. But is that reality, or is that just "demo reel" flash? I'm not sure most untrained people can tell the difference. Mind you, I'm not sure most untrained people can identify what's good combat competition vs. aesthetic competition (and I'm not only talking about forms). 

One caveat, of course: not everyone is looking to learn combat (I think this has already been mentioned this thread). Some are looking for the beauty of a martial art, and there are schools for that. Some are looking for the fitness aspect of a martial art, and there are schools for that. Some are looking for a new hobby, and there are schools for that. There are many other reasons people look into an art, and there are schools for all of them, as well as schools that blend parts of several reasons. And some of those reasons actually require no ability to fight, at all. Curiously, schools that meet this last set of needs will often still produce reasonable fighting ability eventually - moreso than some schools that claim to develop fighting/self-defense ability but just suck at it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Obviously, the chances of a skilled grappler attacking you is rare, however you're also a man. If you were a woman, those chances increase exponentially, and should be seriously taken into consideration.


I think I know the point you're trying to make, and I think you mis-stated it. The chance of a woman being attacked by a skilled grappler aren't, I think, much higher than those of a man. The issue is that a woman is more likely to be taken to the ground (as opposed to beaten while standing), and will often be facing a larger and stronger opponent (where BJJ does a really good job).


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> There's plenty of places that advertise that they're going to teach you how to fight, but teach you how to dance in funny pajamas instead.
> 
> You'd be surprised how many black belts we get that can't fight their way out of a paper bag on their feet. When we get them on their backs, it's like watching a little beetle trying to right itself.
> 
> I've seen people freeze up and freak out when you do something as simple as grabbing their lapel and beginning to push or pull. You would think that they have some invisible field around themselves that has suddenly been shattered.


This is an issue I have with some training methods. It's not at all uncommon in some corners of the aikido arts or their antecedents to find folks who have always receive stylized attacks, and those rarely include things like someone grabbing and shoving with some intent.


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> More to the point, a fairly new student wouldn't often be capable of making that assessment. This is where I think competition serves the student best. When someone comes to my program, what I do looks impressive perhaps. My students appear to be learning well, and appear to be able to handle common attacks at a reasonable level. But is that reality, or is that just "demo reel" flash? I'm not sure most untrained people can tell the difference. Mind you, I'm not sure most untrained people can identify what's good combat competition vs. aesthetic competition (and I'm not only talking about forms).
> 
> One caveat, of course: not everyone is looking to learn combat (I think this has already been mentioned this thread). Some are looking for the beauty of a martial art, and there are schools for that. Some are looking for the fitness aspect of a martial art, and there are schools for that. Some are looking for a new hobby, and there are schools for that. There are many other reasons people look into an art, and there are schools for all of them, as well as schools that blend parts of several reasons. And some of those reasons actually require no ability to fight, at all. Curiously, schools that meet this last set of needs will often still produce reasonable fighting ability eventually - moreso than some schools that claim to develop fighting/self-defense ability but just suck at it.



I agree.

And there are all sorts of variations of the above. Plenty of people in our gym just want to focus on one aspect. Some just box some just wrestle some jits.

So its not like I have an issue with people doing their thing.

What I want is people to get the training they want.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I agree.
> 
> And there are all sorts of variations of the above. Plenty of people in our gym just want to focus on one aspect. Some just box some just wrestle some jits.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I actually have no problem with schools that have sloppy technique or don't teach anything effective for fighting, so  long as they don't purport to do either, and aren't doing anything that's unsafe (some sloppy technique, of course, can injure the practitioner). So, for instance, Tae Bo classes cause me no worry. Shin Shin Toitsu schools cause me no worry (folks are there to study Ki, much more than fighting). It's the really bad "self-defense" schools that get under my skin. I've only seen a couple of them personally, and they do bug me.


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> You guys are getting the topic mixed up here. It isn't mcdojo teachings vs real instruction. It is style vs style. The problems you and drop bear bring up have nothing to do with a style problem, that is an instructor and training problem.
> 
> If you have bad training or have access to good training and just don't apply yourself. Then that is where you will end up with poor results. You also misunderstand adaptation for caring about people's opinions. People are practicing more take down and Clinch defense because they are more popular to come across now due to the popularity of mma, they don't do it for your or anyone elses approval.



Well for me the problems i bring up are not really style vs style anyway. Exept mostly by coincidence.

Exept for some specific circumstances.


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. I actually have no problem with schools that have sloppy technique or don't teach anything effective for fighting, so  long as they don't purport to do either, and aren't doing anything that's unsafe (some sloppy technique, of course, can injure the practitioner). So, for instance, Tae Bo classes cause me no worry. Shin Shin Toitsu schools cause me no worry (folks are there to study Ki, much more than fighting). It's the really bad "self-defense" schools that get under my skin. I've only seen a couple of them personally, and they do bug me.



On that note I also have no issue with styles that are better than me either. Which is the other side of this coin. 

So when someone says integrated mma is better because they produce more champions than us. Well. yeah they are.

When someone says that a pro fighter is better than me because he trains harder or is just more talented. Well yes they are.

Or even stylistically

Boxers have better hands.

Jittsers have better submissions.

Our local karate guys can kick our  people to death but generally can't box. 

And yet these statements are causes for such panty knotting for some people. I think it is an ego thing.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 7, 2016)

drop bear said:


> That was multiple posts in sequence so that people could follow the conversion.
> 
> It means this thread shows that kickboxer 101 participates in exactly the sort of commentry that he is saying is not cool.



But the posts you quoted were about another situation not the McDojo's issue. It was a side issue,  not about stye vs style, it was a case of fraud, and your post was a tad bit misleading by using those posts in answer to the OP post, but so be it, I suppose that is to be expected from some.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

drop bear said:


> On that note I also have no issue with styles that are better than me either. Which is the other side of this coin.
> 
> So when someone says integrated mma is better because they produce more champions than us. Well. yeah they are.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I am often confused by self-defense-oriented TMA instructors who think they could step into an MMA octagon and kick butt. It's not what they're trained for, and shouldn't expect to excel there unless they raise their intensity level a lot and train for that context.

It's like a discussion I was involved in about 10 years ago. I was talking with a friend who had been a competitive MMA fighter for a while. He and I were basically swapping training war stories (mostly stupid mistakes we made). Another co-worker listening in asked which of us would win if we fought. I pointed at my friend and said, "If he knows I'm coming, I'm probably toast. He trains a lot harder than I do, and he specializes in beating martial artists up." My friend said, "Maybe. I'm not sure I'd want to find out." 

He was being nice, IMO. I might get lucky, since he's not used to fighting against my type of art - maybe confuse him with how I move long enough to manage something. But he's trained to deal with martial artists, so I'd put money on him. At the same time, he preferred some of our techniques for self-defense. He had a more limited arsenal, and had started cross-training in some new arts (he was a dabble-and-add guy like me, except he didn't have a primary art at that point) to expand what he had available to him, since he wasn't competing any more.


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## marques (Nov 7, 2016)

Master Wong is great doing YouTube videos and very confident. But instead of showing it works against his (collaborative) students in boxing gloves (and he did a lot videos regarding boxers) I would like to watch something more honest as that:






In this video, no one is very skilled, it is just a drill, but he demonstrated is point. Honestly.
I would like to see (watch on YouTube) that level of confidence in all non-competitive styles... (Not saying competitive styles are better. Just that they already have their moment of truth.)
(Style X does not use gloves and it would be unsafe. Always the same. But a drill, like this, would stil be possible...)


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

marques said:


> Master Wong is great doing YouTube videos and very confident. But instead of showing it works against his (collaborative) students in boxing gloves (and he did a lot videos regarding boxers) I would like to watch something more honest as that:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It demonstrates one thing: that he can make you miss his head if that's all you're aiming for, and he's not trying to do anything in return. It's impressive, and his movement suggests he'd be capable of defending even if they came with body shots, but the test is a bit misleading.

For all that, a nice display of both confidence and competence on his part. Well done.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> You guys are getting the topic mixed up here. It isn't mcdojo teachings vs real instruction. It is style vs style. The problems you and drop bear bring up have nothing to do with a style problem, that is an instructor and training problem.
> 
> If you have bad training or have access to good training and just don't apply yourself. Then that is where you will end up with poor results. You also misunderstand adaptation for caring about people's opinions. People are practicing more take down and Clinch defense because they are more popular to come across now due to the popularity of mma, they don't do it for your or anyone elses approval.



There is no mix-up. Certain styles are simply more favorable to frauds and McDojos than other styles.

You don't run across too many phoney Judo black belts for example.


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## Hanzou (Nov 7, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I think I know the point you're trying to make, and I think you mis-stated it. The chance of a woman being attacked by a skilled grappler aren't, I think, much higher than those of a man. The issue is that a woman is more likely to be taken to the ground (as opposed to beaten while standing), and will often be facing a larger and stronger opponent (where BJJ does a really good job).



Actually I do believe it's higher, because the sexual assault/rape aspect of self defense is an entire other side of possible violence that men never really have to deal with. Because women are more likely to be attacked by men, they're more likely to run across someone with martial skill.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Actually I do believe it's higher, because the sexual assault/rape aspect of self defense is an entire other side of possible violence that men never really have to deal with. Because women are more likely to be attacked by men, they're more likely to run across someone with martial skill.


Men are also more likely to be attacked by men.

Grappling is extra-important for women, but I don't think they're more likely than men to be attacked by someone who is trained.


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 7, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> There is no mix-up. Certain styles are simply more favorable to frauds and McDojos than other styles.
> 
> You don't run across too many phoney Judo black belts for example.



There are fake Bjj black belts around. Allow me to show you a video I posted a while ago 





Here's a couple others 












I know you're hugely biased towards grappling and think its the best ever but there are fakes out there whether you want to believe it it or not


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## Steve (Nov 7, 2016)

I think context is a legitimate concern, but skills exist independent of context.  If you're learning to punch someone who is actively trying to avoid being punched (and who is also actively trying to punch you back), you can adapt to different contexts pretty easily.  But to apply a skill to a NEW context, you must first actually apply the skill in SOME context. 

In other words.  If your self defense context includes being able to punch, kick, grapple or what have you, and you're not applying the skills IN THAT CONTEXT, you'll never have success in a different context.

Simply put, the martial athlete will be able to negotiate the transition from the cage/ring/mat to the "street" because the skills being learned are actually being applied.  They are really punching, really kicking and really grappling in context against fully committed opponents at full speed in un-choreographed competitions, and so the skills being developed are grounded in reality.  At an individual level, that person has developed a skill or skills and has, as an individual, applied these skills in context.  And because the skills are grounded, this transition to application in other contexts is pretty painless and is reliable.  It's about adding to a skillset, not re-training.

However, the shift from self defense to a competitive context is seldom painless and tends to be very unreliable.  Some do it, but only after fundamentally adapting their training methods to account for application. 

The point is that context is important, sure.  I agree complete.  But not because it's a big deal.  If the skills are well grounded and trained to application, learning additional context should be easy.  And if it's not... that's a red flag.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 7, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> There are fake Bjj black belts around. Allow me to show you a video I posted a while ago
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's kind of the point. Someone who falsely claims a black belt in BJJ* is very likely to be publicly confronted, shamed, and exposed to the world at large**. It probably won't take too long for it to happen either. Not so much in most other systems.

This sort of community self-policing will probably get harder to keep up once the number of BJJ practitioners gets past a certain point, but so far it's working pretty well.

*By "claim", I mean someone who's actually in a martial arts school teaching, or wearing a black belt or advertising themselves as a BJJ black belt. Obviously nothing can really be done (other than roll your eyes) about your coworker who mentions in casual conversation that he's a BJJ black belt as well as a former Navy Seal and a MMA champion, even though he never steps foot in a gym.

** In decades past the confrontation and shaming might typically be more ... physical in nature.


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> But the posts you quoted were about another situation not the McDojo's issue. It was a side issue,  not about stye vs style, it was a case of fraud, and your post was a tad bit misleading by using those posts in answer to the OP post, but so be it, I suppose that is to be expected from some.



So there is some sort of undefined difference that makes it ok when you do it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 7, 2016)

Getting back to the original post - I think a lot of the "style vs style" stuff gets posted and argued about because people often invest a lot of ego into whatever art they are practicing and want the validation of thinking that it gives them the ability to beat others - especially others who are also trained fighters.

At this point in my development, I don't really care. There are some styles that I prefer over others, based on how their curriculums or their training methodology or their cultures align with my own goals and preferences and opinions.  However I'm pretty certain that in any martial art which contains a large enough population of practitioners, you can find someone (or many someones) who can thoroughly kick my ***. Heck, there are almost certainly guys out there who have never formally trained in _any_ martial art who can kick my ***.  No matter how long or hard I train, it's never going to turn me into an invincible superhero.

When I look at other arts these days, I'm not doing it to figure out how or if my art can beat theirs. I'm looking to see if these other systems contain something - a training methodology, a tactical perspective, a physical principle, anything, that can help me become better at what I do. For example, Wing Tsun will probably never by my primary style, but in less than a year of training I've picked up a few ideas and perspectives which have helped me to make some subtle refinements to my boxing and jiu-jitsu.


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. I am often confused by self-defense-oriented TMA instructors who think they could step into an MMA octagon and kick butt. It's not what they're trained for, and shouldn't expect to excel there unless they raise their intensity level a lot and train for that context.
> 
> It's like a discussion I was involved in about 10 years ago. I was talking with a friend who had been a competitive MMA fighter for a while. He and I were basically swapping training war stories (mostly stupid mistakes we made). Another co-worker listening in asked which of us would win if we fought. I pointed at my friend and said, "If he knows I'm coming, I'm probably toast. He trains a lot harder than I do, and he specializes in beating martial artists up." My friend said, "Maybe. I'm not sure I'd want to find out."
> 
> He was being nice, IMO. I might get lucky, since he's not used to fighting against my type of art - maybe confuse him with how I move long enough to manage something. But he's trained to deal with martial artists, so I'd put money on him. At the same time, he preferred some of our techniques for self-defense. He had a more limited arsenal, and had started cross-training in some new arts (he was a dabble-and-add guy like me, except he didn't have a primary art at that point) to expand what he had available to him, since he wasn't competing any more.



The thing there is you went to this context bit again. 

If you cant beat a guy in the ring.  You probably cant beat that guy anywhere.

Now there is some additions to that. So you may be able to take a boxer to the deck and finish him there.  But that is a pretty major stylistic addition to the context. 

If you stood and traded hands with him in the street.  You would be relying on some really minor additions. Like the surface could be a bit wonky.  Or you have a few extra striking tricks. 

And you are betting that against this big deal that he has better hands. And then taking that to an environment where a fight can be won and lost in seconds


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's kind of the point. Someone who falsely claims a black belt in BJJ* is very likely to be publicly confronted, shamed, and exposed to the world at large**. It probably won't take too long for it to happen either. Not so much in most other systems.
> 
> This sort of community self-policing will probably get harder to keep up once the number of BJJ practitioners gets past a certain point, but so far it's working pretty well.
> 
> ...


Most likely, it'll be fragmenting of the groups that'll make it hardest to police. If someone with legitimate BJJ chops starts a new organization and changes ranking (maybe moving BB closer to what it is in many TMA), that's going to open the door for others, including some who don't have the chops, to claim BB.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> When I look at other arts these days, I'm not doing it to figure out how or if my art can beat theirs. I'm looking to see if these other systems contain something - a training methodology, a tactical perspective, a physical principle, anything, that can help me become better at what I do. For example, Wing Tsun will probably never by my primary style, but in less than a year of training I've picked up a few ideas and perspectives which have helped me to make some subtle refinements to my boxing and jiu-jitsu.


This. I'll add to your list that I also sometimes just pursue something out of intellectual curiosity. It's something new to learn and understand, and doing that often leads me to some better understanding of my primary art, or maybe just why I suck at something.


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> This. I'll add to your list that I also sometimes just pursue something out of intellectual curiosity. It's something new to learn and understand, and doing that often leads me to some better understanding of my primary art, or maybe just why I suck at something.



Easier to be sensible about it if you move outside your own style though. 

But if you do i dont think you can eliminate style vs style.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

drop bear said:


> The thing there is you went to this context bit again.
> 
> If you cant beat a guy in the ring.  You probably cant beat that guy anywhere.
> 
> ...


Why would I stand and trade hands with someone on the street? If they seem to want to punch, I prefer to grapple. If they seem to want to grapple, I prefer to hit them.

And the context does matter. As someone just pointed out (Steve, maybe), folks who compete (at least in intense, combative competitions like MMA, boxing) will be able to make the adjustment to the context of the street - but I can still monopolize on any openings I can see that their training has created. With MMA, that's often not going to be much help. With boxing, however, his legs are likely relatively unprotected.

But that wasn't ever my point, anyway. My training isn't really centered around trying to take down a competitive badass. That's a fight I'm likely to lose because of differences in fitness level and the fact that he's used to taking a beating, more than because of the techniques used. You see, you keep coming back to the "if you can't beat a guy" concept. That's a competitive view.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Easier to be sensible about it if you move outside your own style though.
> 
> But if you do i dont think you can eliminate style vs style.


I don't spend any time comparing styles to see which is better. I do pull ideas and refinements from every style I touch. Most of the groundwork I teach is adapted from BJJ. Some of my arm and body control come from Judo and western wrestling. I picked up some movements refinements from FMA. I picked up some understandings of principles from Daito-ryu and Yanagi-ryu. I borrowed some transmission principles from Krav Maga. I'm working on some new falls adapted from other aikido arts.

In every case, I looked at whatever I was studying at the time to see how I could improve what I do and teach. My primary art is NGA, so all of those adaptations and refinements inform and improve my approach to NGA.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 7, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> There is no mix-up. Certain styles are simply more favorable to frauds and McDojos than other styles.
> 
> 
> You don't run across too many phoney Judo black belts for example.




It isn't difficult to go online and buy a black belt, they run for about 5 bucks. Rent a cheap place in a mall and push some people around. It won't fool experienced people but it will fool the inexperienced which is where they get their money from.


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Why would I stand and trade hands with someone on the street? If they seem to want to punch, I prefer to grapple. If they seem to want to grapple, I prefer to hit them.
> 
> And the context does matter. As someone just pointed out (Steve, maybe), folks who compete (at least in intense, combative competitions like MMA, boxing) will be able to make the adjustment to the context of the street - but I can still monopolize on any openings I can see that their training has created. With MMA, that's often not going to be much help. With boxing, however, his legs are likely relatively unprotected.
> 
> But that wasn't ever my point, anyway. My training isn't really centered around trying to take down a competitive badass. That's a fight I'm likely to lose because of differences in fitness level and the fact that he's used to taking a beating, more than because of the techniques used. You see, you keep coming back to the "if you can't beat a guy" concept. That's a competitive view.



The competitive view is a pretty robust concept for self defence.  To misquote the watchmen. You dont want to be locked in there with him.  You want him to be locked in there with you.

Part of this is understanding the mechanics of fighting. You really only need to spend a few seconds in the element of the guy you are fighting to have that fight go against you. So you need to be employing your tactical approach pretty bloody quickly.

Otherwise full contact has different focus on different techniques. If you are being beat up by a guy when you step up the pace.  You cant really hide behind technical. A lot of martial artists fall into that trap. And is the transition from technical expert to fighter.


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I don't spend any time comparing styles to see which is better. I do pull ideas and refinements from every style I touch. Most of the groundwork I teach is adapted from BJJ. Some of my arm and body control come from Judo and western wrestling. I picked up some movements refinements from FMA. I picked up some understandings of principles from Daito-ryu and Yanagi-ryu. I borrowed some transmission principles from Krav Maga. I'm working on some new falls adapted from other aikido arts.
> 
> In every case, I looked at whatever I was studying at the time to see how I could improve what I do and teach. My primary art is NGA, so all of those adaptations and refinements inform and improve my approach to NGA.



So those refinements were not better?


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 7, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> There are fake Bjj black belts around. Allow me to show you a video I posted a while ago
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think you will find anyone else more biased but anyway. The same thing that happened to karate and Tae Kwon do and various kung fury arts will happen to bjj. The reason these arts had lots of frauds and still do is because there is a high demand for it, it has a high demand because it is popular.

More specifically mma is popular and you rarely ever find a bjj place that is only that, you find mma clubs or mma gyms. These are usually where the "mcdojos" in bjj lay. It doesn't take an expert to throw on some shorts and gloves and do nothing but shoot for takedowns until eventually one does land.

Not saying this is what mma does but the shitty ones sure do. And there is no denying that you haven't seen mcdojos mma gyms. To day that you would have to be biased or blind.


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I don't think you will find anyone else more biased but anyway. The same thing that happened to karate and Tae Kwon do and various kung fury arts will happen to bjj. The reason these arts had lots of frauds and still do is because there is a high demand for it, it has a high demand because it is popular.
> 
> More specifically mma is popular and you rarely ever find a bjj place that is only that, you find mma clubs or mma gyms. These are usually where the "mcdojos" in bjj lay. It doesn't take an expert to throw on some shorts and gloves and do nothing but shoot for takedowns until eventually one does land.
> 
> Not saying this is what mma does but the shitty ones sure do. And there is no denying that you haven't seen mcdojos mma gyms. To day that you would have to be biased or blind.



Which is why you need a grounding on what to look for. 

I mean does it work in the cage?  Definitely applies to mma as well.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 7, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Most likely, it'll be fragmenting of the groups that'll make it hardest to police. If someone with legitimate BJJ chops starts a new organization and changes ranking (maybe moving BB closer to what it is in many TMA), that's going to open the door for others, including some who don't have the chops, to claim BB.


BJJ organizations are already pretty darn fragmented - as much so as any other art if not more so.

You are correct that the problem comes when a legitimate instructor decides to lower the standards for ranking. The only protection against that is really community peer pressure. So far that's mostly doing the trick, but twenty years from now things may be different.


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I don't think you will find anyone else more biased but anyway. The same thing that happened to karate and Tae Kwon do and various kung fury arts will happen to bjj. The reason these arts had lots of frauds and still do is because there is a high demand for it, it has a high demand because it is popular.
> 
> More specifically mma is popular and you rarely ever find a bjj place that is only that, you find mma clubs or mma gyms. These are usually where the "mcdojos" in bjj lay. It doesn't take an expert to throw on some shorts and gloves and do nothing but shoot for takedowns until eventually one does land.
> 
> Not saying this is what mma does but the shitty ones sure do. And there is no denying that you haven't seen mcdojos mma gyms. To day that you would have to be biased or blind.



It does happen because I've seen it. About a month back now a friend wanted to start mma at this new club and asked me to come down. So I did I didn't train because I was injured at the time (landed awkwardly throwing a knee somehow don't ask me how lol) but anyway it wasnt a mma gym it was a jiu jitsu school, the instructor was a black belt in jiu jitsu so he was fine in the grappling part but then he started teaching striking and it was obvious he knew as much about striking as I do about jiu jitsu. It was seriously bad he was teaching arm punches basically no hip rotation nothing about keeping a guard up and his kicks were literally flicks no power at all. If I sparred with him in pure stand up I'd have beaten him and so would anyone who knows anything about striking he was seriously bad. So it shows there are frauds in every single style. I didn't share this story before because I knew it'd start an argument with the mma fanboys who can't accept anything else being good unless you get in a cage to prove yourself but well that's already happening on this thread so whatever


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 7, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So there is some sort of undefined difference that makes it ok when you do it.



But I didn't do it, and never have taken posts out of context and attempted to use those to answer an unrelated post, but it you feel I have please show me where I did and I will be happy to discuss it


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 7, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> But I didn't do it, and never have taken posts out of context and attempted to use those to answer an unrelated post, but it you feel I have please show me where I did and I will be happy to discuss it


Yeah I mean I know I said that on that qi thing or whatever it was called but 2 things. 1 that wasnt martial arts that was a downright con it's not like that was a school teaching bad technique or promoting to quick that was a complete con with 0 training and second sure ill say it here but if I met one of those students down the pub I wouldn't say "oh hey your instructors a con man and a fraud and if you want to prove it lets throw down " which is the point I'm making with this thread


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 7, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Which is why you need a grounding on what to look for.



But what should that grounding be? It shouldn't be avoid such and such style because if that is the case people could end up missing out on great training.

I have been told everything I have done in martial arts is **** by at least a few folks. That is how it is, everyone has their opinion whether or not they are experienced. If I listened to every person to be honest I wouldn't be doing anything, because everything has some people who will call it crap.

For example. When I did American Kenpo Karate it was " that stuff is fake and doesn't work, do boxing." Even on a deeper level it was "don't learn American Kenpo from that guy, that guy is fake and charges too much "

Right because the competitions we won were all fake (rolls eyes). Then it went to "don't do martial arts, all that Chinese crap us ********. Just get a gun because nothing beats that." After that it was " Your sifu is a fake and his sifu was a fraud with a made up lineage and overall fake history."

I never cared about this because all of these opinions are exactly that, opinions that anyone can have whether or not they have any knowledge. I give people benefit of the doubt because in the end the opinion that matters the most is my own.

Sadly there is a risk involved here. The risk of dedicating yourself to a bad outlet of training. Sadly that is a reality many of us have to face because there is always that chance. Even if the instructor is good or phoneomenal, maybe his or her methods won't work for you? There are many things that can happen here that are just out of our hands and are in general going to be unknown until you actually give it a chance.

I myself have been to a mcdojo before in middle school. I was lucky to know it was bs before hand though because I had asked the more senior students if they ever sparred with each other, they literally said to me "what is sparring?" All we and they ever did were hit pads and do moves on the air.

That was my first and only experience with shorin ryu karate, now there are two things I could have done here. I could have gone around and told everyone I know "Shorin Ryu is fake and cheesy" or even worse "karate is fake and cheesy" purely based on my one experience. That would be nothing short of ignorance, now if I said hey that particular shorin ryu karate dojo is not that great because ect ect. That would be much more appropriate.

I think the grounding you are talking about should be the following instead of just avoiding entire fighting arts all together.

1. Know what you want out of the martial art training.

Example: become a pro fighter, simply get in better shape, self defense training. Simply something to do.

2. Look at it more as learning techniques rather than learning a style.

3. Ask yourself will their training regiment be able to help me get what I want out of it?

For me I want to go into karate tournaments and get far there. I don't particularly like mma simply because the attitudes and stigma that surrounds it, that is by no mean meant to offend you or anyone but that is my personal oppionion about it. 

More importantly I don't feel comfortable in nothing but board shorts and feel much cooler in a gi. Maybe someday I will go into more mma stuff but for now I am more interested in the more stand up scene. So those are my goals and that is why I am happy where I am at.

It really takes a lot of looking deep down and understanding what it is you exactly want, and nobody can do that except for the individual.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 7, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> It does happen because I've seen it. About a month back now a friend wanted to start mma at this new club and asked me to come down. So I did I didn't train because I was injured at the time (landed awkwardly throwing a knee somehow don't ask me how lol) but anyway it wasnt a mma gym it was a jiu jitsu school, the instructor was a black belt in jiu jitsu so he was fine in the grappling part but then he started teaching striking and it was obvious he knew as much about striking as I do about jiu jitsu. It was seriously bad he was teaching arm punches basically no hip rotation nothing about keeping a guard up and his kicks were literally flicks no power at all. If I sparred with him in pure stand up I'd have beaten him and so would anyone who knows anything about striking he was seriously bad. So it shows there are frauds in every single style. I didn't share this story before because I knew it'd start an argument with the mma fanboys who can't accept anything else being good unless you get in a cage to prove yourself but well that's already happening on this thread so whatever



See that's good that he knows bjj but he could easily have just opened a bjj dojo. Instead of trying to fake what he can't do and just look foolish. Then he is going to teach people crappy striking.

One of the biggest things I admire about my sifu is he is honest even when it can be bad for him to be honest. I asked him if he could show me some bjj because I saw he has a blue belt in it. He told me "No. I cannot teach you something I myself am not a good at doing." 

The fact he is also willing to learn other martial arts says a lot to me as well, there are so many instructors out there that think their art has it all and is all around perfection.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It isn't difficult to go online and buy a black belt, they run for about 5 bucks. Rent a cheap place in a mall and push some people around. It won't fool experienced people but it will fool the inexperienced which is where they get their money from.


Good point. I actually know an instructor who paid to test for his Shodan in Judo many years ago. He had never studied it, just tested and got his rank.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So those refinements were not better?


For me, they were. But the style wasn't. I pick what works for me to refine and improve how I do NGA.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> BJJ organizations are already pretty darn fragmented - as much so as any other art if not more so.
> 
> You are correct that the problem comes when a legitimate instructor decides to lower the standards for ranking. The only protection against that is really community peer pressure. So far that's mostly doing the trick, but twenty years from now things may be different.


I'm more thinking about independents and near-independents. I'm not sure how many of those there are. Within NGA there's a complete mis-alingment of ranks, for instance. The original (to the US, at least - likely abbreviated from the Japanese origin) ranking is the most common. It has 6 dan ranks. There's a contingent that has gone to a 10-dan system, and I'm not quite sure how that lines up with the older system. I went to a 3-dan system (senior student, instructor, senior instructor). All those variations exist because small groups and independent instructors split off from the original organization, each making changes for their own reasons. Now that there's no real parity in ranks, someone could easily claim whatever dan rank they want, and it would be difficult to say categorically that it's not valid unless they claim it was given by someone who disputes that claim.


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> See that's good that he knows bjj but he could easily have just opened a bjj dojo. Instead of trying to fake what he can't do and just look foolish. Then he is going to teach people crappy striking.
> 
> One of the biggest things I admire about my sifu is he is honest even when it can be bad for him to be honest. I asked him if he could show me some bjj because I saw he has a blue belt in it. He told me "No. I cannot teach you something I myself am not a good at doing."
> 
> The fact he is also willing to learn other martial arts says a lot to me as well, there are so many instructors out there that think their art has it all and is all around perfection.



Honestly I think a lot of pure grapplers think that striking is so much easier to learn so can just pretend to know it. Now I'm not saying all of them are like this but I have seen a few who say oh striking is easy to learn even a baby can punch. Well yeah sure they can but on the other hand a child can wrap his hands around your neck and choke you as well doesn't mean a baby can do jiu jitsu. Thing is these days if you say your a pure striker people say your one dimensional and wouldn't survive but if someone's a pure grappler apparently that means they're fully ready to fight anyone...well no a pure grappler is just as one dimensional as a pure striker is. But as I'm saying who cares if your one dimensional as long as you enjoy training in that one dimension, if you prefer training in ground and stand up then good on you have fun. Personally I like striking that's what I enjoy. I'm not fussed about ever learning to grapple does that make me one dimensional? Sure maybe. Do I care? Nope not at all same way I don't care if a grappler hates striking and refuses to train that at the end of the day who gives a love. I couldn't care less about what some random guys I don't know train. I'm not an mma fighter so I have 0 need to learn grappling. If I ever chose to do mma then I would do grappling or maybe one day ill want to try jiu jitsu but now I'm more than happy doing what I do so who cares


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> But I didn't do it, and never have taken posts out of context and attempted to use those to answer an unrelated post, but it you feel I have please show me where I did and I will be happy to discuss it



It is not out of context. It is not unrelated.  You participated in a style vs style debate with the O.P. 

He has started a thread where he says he does not participate in style vs styled debates.

Now i know you didn't start this thread.  You might be mad keen for a style vs style. Or not i dont know.  But if i had only posted kickboxers posts it would have been out of context and unrelated. Because people would have only read one half of the conversation.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Honestly I think a lot of pure grapplers think that striking is so much easier to learn so can just pretend to know it. Now I'm not saying all of them are like this but I have seen a few who say oh striking is easy to learn even a baby can punch. Well yeah sure they can but on the other hand a child can wrap his hands around your neck and choke you as well doesn't mean a baby can do jiu jitsu. Thing is these days if you say your a pure striker people say your one dimensional and wouldn't survive but if someone's a pure grappler apparently that means they're fully ready to fight anyone...well no a pure grappler is just as one dimensional as a pure striker is. But as I'm saying who cares if your one dimensional as long as you enjoy training in that one dimension, if you prefer training in ground and stand up then good on you have fun. Personally I like striking that's what I enjoy. I'm not fussed about ever learning to grapple does that make me one dimensional? Sure maybe. Do I care? Nope not at all same way I don't care if a grappler hates striking and refuses to train that at the end of the day who gives a love. I couldn't care less about what some random guys I don't know train. I'm not an mma fighter so I have 0 need to learn grappling. If I ever chose to do mma then I would do grappling or maybe one day ill want to try jiu jitsu but now I'm more than happy doing what I do so who cares


I'll also add that even a one-dimensional fighter can be devastatingly effective. I wouldn't want to be the guy who tried to tackle a professional boxer, nor the guy who tried to punch a top-tier BJJer or Olympic Judoka. If you get *really good *at one dimension, it closes up most of the opportunities for attack.


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Nov 7, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It is not out of context. It is not unrelated.  You participated in a style vs style debate with the O.P.
> 
> He has started a thread where he says he does not participate in style vs styled debates.
> 
> Now i know you didn't start this thread.  You might be mad keen for a style vs style. Or not i dont know.  But if i had only posted kickboxers posts it would have been out of context and unrelated. Because people would have only read one half of the conversation.


Firstly that wasnt a style v style because I wasnt comparing it to any other style and like I've said hundreds of times (which you seem to conveniently ignore every time) that's not a style that was a guy waving his hands pretending to be Luke skywalker that wasnt martial arts. Secondly I didn't say I don't talk about style v style stuff I said at the end of the day it doesn't matter and I said I'd never challenge someone or belittle someone or tell them to quit their style. Now could you please read this properly and take it in so I don't have to repeat myself it's getting very boring


----------



## Ironbear24 (Nov 7, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Honestly I think a lot of pure grapplers think that striking is so much easier to learn so can just pretend to know it. Now I'm not saying all of them are like this but I have seen a few who say oh striking is easy to learn even a baby can punch. Well yeah sure they can but on the other hand a child can wrap his hands around your neck and choke you as well doesn't mean a baby can do jiu jitsu. Thing is these days if you say your a pure striker people say your one dimensional and wouldn't survive but if someone's a pure grappler apparently that means they're fully ready to fight anyone...well no a pure grappler is just as one dimensional as a pure striker is. But as I'm saying who cares if your one dimensional as long as you enjoy training in that one dimension, if you prefer training in ground and stand up then good on you have fun. Personally I like striking that's what I enjoy. I'm not fussed about ever learning to grapple does that make me one dimensional? Sure maybe. Do I care? Nope not at all same way I don't care if a grappler hates striking and refuses to train that at the end of the day who gives a love. I couldn't care less about what some random guys I don't know train. I'm not an mma fighter so I have 0 need to learn grappling. If I ever chose to do mma then I would do grappling or maybe one day ill want to try jiu jitsu but now I'm more than happy doing what I do so who cares



Yup. It also comes down to the understanding that you can become better and better at doing something that is supposedly so simple. I can't count how many times my fists folded at the wrists during a punch because I punched with bad technique, or did hurt my self because I accidentally smacked my toes into someone's hip because I kicked poorly.

It may seem so easy to some but until they really try to perfect it they won't see all the important nuances.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 7, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> But as I'm saying who cares if your one dimensional as long as you enjoy training in that one dimension, if you prefer training in ground and stand up then good on you have fun.



So have you seen a discussion where people habe said that to enjoy martial arts they have to do a different style?

Because your arguments are not matching up to the sort of discussions neing had.


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 7, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So have you seen a discussion where people habe said that to enjoy martial arts they have to do a different style?
> 
> Because your arguments are not matching up to the sort of discussions neing had.



you're getting very boring please read what I just posted, seriously what is your problem do you enjoy arguments or something


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It isn't difficult to go online and buy a black belt, they run for about 5 bucks. Rent a cheap place in a mall and push some people around. It won't fool experienced people but it will fool the inexperienced which is where they get their money from.



No, it isn't difficult to buy a black belt.

However, it's very difficult to fake being a Bjj black belt. Especially when a real Bjj black belt stops by your school to roll with you and your students. If you and your students are a bunch of scrubs who can't grapple their way out of a paper bag, word is going to travel around very quickly and its only going to lead to MORE real Bjj black belts coming by your school.

That's not even getting into the competitive aspect of Bjj where you and your little cadre of phonies are going to get embarrassed by just about everyone.

In short, it simply doesn't pay to fake a Bjj black belt.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 7, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Honestly I think a lot of pure grapplers think that striking is so much easier to learn so can just pretend to know it. Now I'm not saying all of them are like this but I have seen a few who say oh striking is easy to learn even a baby can punch. Well yeah sure they can but on the other hand a child can wrap his hands around your neck and choke you as well doesn't mean a baby can do jiu jitsu. Thing is these days if you say your a pure striker people say your one dimensional and wouldn't survive but if someone's a pure grappler apparently that means they're fully ready to fight anyone...well no a pure grappler is just as one dimensional as a pure striker is. But as I'm saying who cares if your one dimensional as long as you enjoy training in that one dimension, if you prefer training in ground and stand up then good on you have fun. Personally I like striking that's what I enjoy. I'm not fussed about ever learning to grapple does that make me one dimensional? Sure maybe. Do I care? Nope not at all same way I don't care if a grappler hates striking and refuses to train that at the end of the day who gives a love. I couldn't care less about what some random guys I don't know train. I'm not an mma fighter so I have 0 need to learn grappling. If I ever chose to do mma then I would do grappling or maybe one day ill want to try jiu jitsu but now I'm more than happy doing what I do so who cares



Thing is, Bjj isn't "pure grappling". At least old school Bjj isn't. Watch the Gracie in Action tapes, and Royce in the first UFCs. There's a lot of strikes in Bjj. Headbutts, Punches, Kicks, elbows, etc. its all in there. For example, I was trained to rain blows down on someone's face once I achieved mount. The choke or submission that I used next was dependent on their reaction to my blows.


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Firstly that wasnt a style v style because I wasnt comparing it to any other style and like I've said hundreds of times (which you seem to conveniently ignore every time) Secondly I didn't say I don't talk about style v style stuff I said at the end of the day it doesn't matter and I said I'd never challenge someone or belittle someone or tell them to quit their style. Now could you please read this properly and take it in so I don't have to repeat myself it's getting very boring



So this.
*
that's not a style that was a guy waving his hands pretending to be Luke skywalker that wasnt martial arts. *
*
*
is not belittling a persons martial arts?

Wait mabye i didnt read it properly. As you claim.

*that's not a style that was a guy waving his hands pretending to be Luke skywalker that wasnt martial arts. 
*
Nope still reads as belittling.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 7, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Thing is, Bjj isn't "pure grappling". At least old school Bjj isn't. Watch the Gracie in Action tapes, and Royce in the first UFCs. There's a lot of strikes in Bjj. Headbutts, Punches, Kicks, elbows, etc. its all in there. For example, I was trained to rain blows down on someone's face once I achieved mount. The choke or submission that I used next was dependent on their reaction to my blows.



Did he say it was? You are acting like your style is on trail or something. It isn't. As for the fake bjjers being shown up by real ones, that is a problem in itself. Just look at how much controversy this in itself causes. Who's to say just because you lose means all the sudden you are fake. I guarantee if Rorian Gracie rolled with you, you would end up losing easily. Does that mean you are a fake? So you see now why this could be a problem and is not a one size fits all answer?

This forum itself never hesitates to call me a thug or a bully for getting in fights, I can imagine what they would say to someone going to a newly opened bjj place and dominating everyone. Then calling all of them fake simply because they lost a match.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> No, it isn't difficult to buy a black belt.
> 
> However, it's very difficult to fake being a Bjj black belt. Especially when a real Bjj black belt stops by your school to roll with you and your students. If you and your students are a bunch of scrubs who can't grapple their way out of a paper bag, word is going to travel around very quickly and its only going to lead to MORE real Bjj black belts coming by your school.
> 
> ...


That first part is true of almost any art. What sets BJJ apart, I think, is that BJJ black belts still police this.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 7, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I'm more thinking about independents and near-independents. I'm not sure how many of those there are. Within NGA there's a complete mis-alingment of ranks, for instance. The original (to the US, at least - likely abbreviated from the Japanese origin) ranking is the most common. It has 6 dan ranks. There's a contingent that has gone to a 10-dan system, and I'm not quite sure how that lines up with the older system. I went to a 3-dan system (senior student, instructor, senior instructor). All those variations exist because small groups and independent instructors split off from the original organization, each making changes for their own reasons. Now that there's no real parity in ranks, someone could easily claim whatever dan rank they want, and it would be difficult to say categorically that it's not valid unless they claim it was given by someone who disputes that claim.


There are lots of independent instructors in BJJ, as well as small organizations and big organizations. The thing which has so far kept the ranking system mostly consistent is the culture. No one wants to be the instructor whose brown belts get trounced by another instructor's blue belts. If anything, there's a tendency in the other direction. Some of the schools with a heavy competition focus will engage in "sandbagging" - holding back students who really should be promoted so they can win as many trophies as possible in a given belt division before moving on to the next level.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There are lots of independent instructors in BJJ, as well as small organizations and big organizations. The thing which has so far kept the ranking system mostly consistent is the culture. No one wants to be the instructor whose brown belts get trounced by another instructor's blue belts. If anything, there's a tendency in the other direction. Some of the schools with a heavy competition focus will engage in "sandbagging" - holding back students who really should be promoted so they can win as many trophies as possible in a given belt division before moving on to the next level.


This is where the competition helps, Tony. I'm suggesting the kind of instructor that would do this would probably not bring students to competition.

Sandbagging is a whole other problem - and one that irritates me for very academic reasons.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Nov 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Did he say it was? You are acting like your style is on trail or something. It isn't. As for the fake bjjers being shown up by real ones, that is a problem in itself. Just look at how much controversy this in itself causes. Who's to say just because you lose means all the sudden you are fake. I guarantee if Rorian Gracie rolled with you, you would end up losing easily. Does that mean you are a fake? So you see now why this could be a problem and is not a one size fits all answer?
> 
> This forum itself never hesitates to call me a thug or a bully for getting in fights, I can imagine what they would say to someone going to a newly opened bjj place and dominating everyone. Then calling all of them fake simply because they lost a match.


Many of the pioneers of BJJ regularly engaged in practices which some might consider thuggish.* That pattern has been moderated significantly since the art became more widespread, especially in other countries which have different cultural standards from Brazil. Still, the community norms in BJJ are such that instructors are expected to be able to back up their rank.

*In fact, members of this forum whom I respect have in the past called out Renzo Gracie for what they perceive as thuggish behavior. Renzo is a top notch BJJ instructor and a super friendly, very generous guy, but ... lets say that some of the values he was raised with are not exactly the same as the values many of the people here hold.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 7, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It is not out of context. It is not unrelated.  You participated in a style vs style debate with the O.P.
> 
> He has started a thread where he says he does not participate in style vs styled debates.
> 
> Now i know you didn't start this thread.  You might be mad keen for a style vs style. Or not i dont know.  But if i had only posted kickboxers posts it would have been out of context and unrelated. Because people would have only read one half of the conversation.



But you posted responses that were not in direct response to his thread which is a bit disingenuous don't you think, likely in an attempt to start an argument, which you are still unsuccessfully trying to get....

have a nice day


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 7, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> This is where the competition helps, Tony. I'm suggesting the kind of instructor that would do this would probably not bring students to competition.
> 
> Sandbagging is a whole other problem - and one that irritates me for very academic reasons.


Even schools that don't put a heavy emphasis on competition will still commonly have visitors from other schools or have students who occasionally travel and visit other academies. The friendly rolls that happen in class aren't quite the same as serious tournament competition, but they're sufficient to get a sense of the skill levels involved and whether the ranks worn at a school are generally in line with community standards.

For a school to get away with completely adopting new rank standards without being called out on it, they'd have to fully isolate their students from the larger BJJ community - and that itself is considered fishy and cause for concern. I'm sure that over time we'll see more of this happening, but so far there doesn't seem to be too much of that behavior.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Nov 7, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Many of the pioneers of BJJ regularly engaged in practices which some might consider thuggish.* That pattern has been moderated significantly since the art became more widespread, especially in other countries which have different cultural standards from Brazil. Still, the community norms in BJJ are such that instructors are expected to be able to back up their rank.
> 
> *In fact, members of this forum whom I respect have in the past called out Renzo Gracie for what they perceive as thuggish behavior. Renzo is a top notch BJJ instructor and a super friendly, very generous guy, but ... lets say that some of the values he was raised with are not exactly the same as the values many of the people here hold.



Backing it up is ok and all but I can easily see it getting out of hand. And when it does it won't help the image especially when it is already in a negative light


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## Hanzou (Nov 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Did he say it was?



Well yes. He mentioned "pure grappling" and he brought up Jiujitsu. Japanese Jujutsu is certainly not pure grappling, and "traditional" Brazilian Jiujitsu isn't either.



> You are acting like your style is on trail or something.



I fully realize that. I'm merely clearing up some misconceptions.



> As for the fake bjjers being shown up by real ones, that is a problem in itself. Just look at how much controversy this in itself causes. Who's to say just because you lose means all the sudden you are fake. I guarantee if Rorian Gracie rolled with you, you would end up losing easily. Does that mean you are a fake? So you see now why this could be a problem and is not a one size fits all answer?



Well considering that Rorian is a grandmaster who has been doing Bjj longer than I've been alive I fully expect to lose to him.

Now if I get tooled by some backyard wrestler, then my instructor would probably wonder if I actually deserve my purple belt.

I'm talking about when you roll with someone and it is very clear that they've never grappled before, or they lack fundamental skills. If a Bjj black belt is getting tooled by a white belt or a blue belt for example, something is very wrong with the black belt. Despite various skill levels, Bjj Black Belts all have a strong grasp of the fundamentals. If you lack the fundamentals as a black belt, chances are you're not a real black belt.



> This forum itself never hesitates to call me a thug or a bully for getting in fights, I can imagine what they would say to someone going to a newly opened bjj place and dominating everyone. Then calling all of them fake simply because they lost a match.



The Bjj community wouldn't call you a thug or a bully. We'd thank you for doing us a service by removing a bunch of phonies.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 7, 2016)

Why are people so easily baited by *** holes and dumb shits into thinking they need to justify what it is that they do (I don't claim to be exempt from that myself)?  Because invariably that is what these threads turn into.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Backing it up is ok and all but I can easily see it getting out of hand. And when it does it won't help the image especially when it is already in a negative light


There were definitely occasions back in the early days of the art in Brazil where it absolutely did get out of hand. You are also correct that it did nothing to promote a positive image of the art.

These days, it's usually more civilized. Typically someone who is suspicious of the credentials of an instructor will try to verify who promoted that person. If this can't be established they may visit the school and observe the instruction. If it doesn't seem up to snuff, they may ask to roll with the instructor (or an appropriate representative thereof). Typically the fake instructor will refuse to roll (perhaps claiming an injury) and won't have an advanced student to defend his reputation either. At that point, if there is no evidence that the person was ever awarded their claimed rank, and they can't demonstrate technique like a black belt and they won't back up their rank on the mat by rolling, they can expect to be publicly called out as a fraud both in person and on the internet.


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> But you posted responses that were not in direct response to his thread which is a bit disingenuous don't you think, likely in an attempt to start an argument, which you are still unsuccessfully trying to get....
> 
> have a nice day



I think the constant denial that you both engage in the behavior of belittling other styles is outright dishonest. And the only reason this argument even exists. 

This thread is a response to other threads. But you are trying to claim actions in other threads should not apply?


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## msmitht (Nov 7, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Many of the pioneers of BJJ regularly engaged in practices which some might consider thuggish.* That pattern has been moderated significantly since the art became more widespread, especially in other countries which have different cultural standards from Brazil. Still, the community norms in BJJ are such that instructors are expected to be able to back up their rank.
> 
> *In fact, members of this forum whom I respect have in the past called out Renzo Gracie for what they perceive as thuggish behavior. Renzo is a top notch BJJ instructor and a super friendly, very generous guy, but ... lets say that some of the values he was raised with are not exactly the same as the values many of the people here hold.


Really? I have eaten lunch with him and been humbled by him. he always smiles and is friendly.  the kinda guy you wouldn't want to piss off because he is so nice. Is a confident in what he does? Yes. If you challenge him will he throw down? Yes. If he sees what he considers an injustice he will speak his mind, unlike many, because he can back it up physically if he needs to. So I'm not really sure what you mean when you say his values are not the same.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Even schools that don't put a heavy emphasis on competition will still commonly have visitors from other schools or have students who occasionally travel and visit other academies. The friendly rolls that happen in class aren't quite the same as serious tournament competition, but they're sufficient to get a sense of the skill levels involved and whether the ranks worn at a school are generally in line with community standards.
> 
> For a school to get away with completely adopting new rank standards without being called out on it, they'd have to fully isolate their students from the larger BJJ community - and that itself is considered fishy and cause for concern. I'm sure that over time we'll see more of this happening, but so far there doesn't seem to be too much of that behavior.


Let's hope there's a long delay before that happens, Tony. BJJ is one of the few places I actually know what the ranks mean.


----------



## Steve (Nov 7, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> BJJ organizations are already pretty darn fragmented - as much so as any other art if not more so.
> 
> You are correct that the problem comes when a legitimate instructor decides to lower the standards for ranking. The only protection against that is really community peer pressure. So far that's mostly doing the trick, but twenty years from now things may be different.


Isolation is what makes this possible.   As long as the schools participate in competition, it's clear who is sandbagging and who is promoting too quickly,


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 7, 2016)

msmitht said:


> Really? I have eaten lunch with him and been humbled by him. he always smiles and is friendly.  the kinda guy you wouldn't want to piss off because he is so nice. Is a confident in what he does? Yes. If you challenge him will he throw down? Yes. If he sees what he considers an injustice he will speak his mind, unlike many, because he can back it up physically if he needs to. So I'm not really sure what you mean when you say his values are not the same.


As I said, he's a super friendly, extremely generous guy, and a great teacher. I've only met him a few times, but have enjoyed his teaching and his company each time.

That said, he is not at all a believer in the philosophy of avoiding fights whenever possible. There are numerous examples of him (by his own admission) getting into fights which were In no way required for self defense. Some members of the forum have criticized him for this. I myself don't agree with his approach to these matters, but it's not really a major concern for me. I live my way and he lives his.


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Nov 8, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So this.
> *
> that's not a style that was a guy waving his hands pretending to be Luke skywalker that wasnt martial arts.
> 
> ...


IT...IS....NOT.....A....MARTIAL.....ART......

Please tell me what martial art that is meant to be you're very boring


----------



## Jenna (Nov 8, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> There's plenty of places that advertise that they're going to teach you how to fight, but teach you how to dance in funny pajamas instead.
> 
> You'd be surprised how many black belts we get that can't fight their way out of a paper bag on their feet. When we get them on their backs, it's like watching a little beetle trying to right itself.
> 
> I've seen people freeze up and freak out when you do something as simple as grabbing their lapel and beginning to push or pull. You would think that they have some invisible field around themselves that has suddenly been shattered.


Hey what are you doing shattering peoples invisible fields? that could be very dangerous and could get someones eye put out!! I think as head of health&safety I do not think I can allow that practice to continue


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## drop bear (Nov 8, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> As I said, he's a super friendly, extremely generous guy, and a great teacher. I've only met him a few times, but have enjoyed his teaching and his company each time.
> 
> That said, he is not at all a believer in the philosophy of avoiding fights whenever possible. There are numerous examples of him (by his own admission) getting into fights which were In no way required for self defense. Some members of the forum have criticized him for this. I myself don't agree with his approach to these matters, but it's not really a major concern for me. I live my way and he lives his.



Yeah.  But Brazil have these respect ideas and community ideas that we dont.


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## Buka (Nov 8, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You are correct that the problem comes when a legitimate instructor decides to lower the standards for ranking. The only protection against that is really community peer pressure. So far that's mostly doing the trick, but twenty years from now things may be different.



I doubt that.


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah.  But Brazil have these respect ideas and community ideas that we dont.



Chris Brennan  posted up not long ago on FB. Not a happy man.


Chris Brennan
19 hrs · Daly City, CA, United States ·


"Prepare for rant. Prepare to be offended. Prepare to unfriend me. Prepare for me to not care either way.

This weekend I witnessed some of the most corrupt and ...entitled **** I've ever seen.

I'll start with the petty stuff and work my way forward. Standing in a line of a about 15 to get in, I finally get to the front and 3 Brazilians walk up to the left of me at the front of the line and whip out there ibjjf id card. He tries to hand it to the lady and I said "hey we all have those" and he said "so" and I said "so get in line". He laughed and proceeded to try and hand it to her. I handed to her at the same time. She reached for his and I said "you better take my card first, we have been standing in line". The guy is laughing at me and then she reached for mine, looked at it and stamped my hand (she could tell I wasn't in the mood for ********). I looked at the 3 entitled Brazilians and said "welcome to America" and walked off. He said "Ya we've been kicking your *** for years". As I kept walking I said "ya I've won this **** 3 times so it's not my *** you've been kicking". This dude says "Google my name mother love". I said "I can't, I don't know it". Once that testosterone fest was over, Lucas Randy and I made it inside.

I'm terribly disappointed in the direction the competitive sport of Jiu-Jitsu is going or has gone. The double guard pulling, the both staying there on their asses playing footsies, when basically only 1 type of foot lock is legal, the false sense of security it builds with the competitors, etc. You can't wrestle, or use judo, or any kind of takedown for that matter. If you shot a double, you'd shoot right over your opponent that was siting on his ***. It takes away so much of the fight. I don't want to see guys on the feet the whole time but it's definitely made sure the sport is not entertaining to watch if you brought a friend or family member to watch, or if you were trying to sell someone on training. The best 2 matches I saw all weekend were the finals match with Marcello Mafra, and the finals match with my boy Josh Hinger. Both fought for take downs and both used old school (3-5 years ago lol) jiu-jitsu. Passing, mounting, back taking, and scrambles. Very exciting. As a gym owner, I'm not sure what a class would look like teaching this double stare. We have worked a bit with the boys on shutting it down and have been successful twice now against the best in the world at their ages. Now we need to work in getting offensive at the same time, and saving jiu-jitsu. Lol.

Now to the corruption. The reffing at these tournaments is terrible and embarrassingly biased. Keep in mind you will get DQd for speaking to the ref during the matches. Rafa Mendez, as arrogant as any human could be, sits and has conversations with the refs while his clones are going. I sat with one Texas dad (of a phenom) and watched as madness unfolded. Neither of our kids were going so I thought I'd tell this story so it didn't seem like I was crying for my kid. It's 4-4 and an AOJ clone is on the mat against another kid (non Brazilian). They both have 2 advantages. Rafa hasn't shut up the whole match. With 20 seconds left, the other kid gets an advantage putting him ahead. Rafa bitches to the ref in Portuguese, telling him no and with 5 seconds left the ref takes the advantage back off the board. Time runs out and it's a tie. Ref raises the AOJ kids hand and he wins. I look at Rafa and say "that's the most corrupt **** I've ever seen". He looks at me and the other dad and smirks and shrugs his shoulders. That was one of tons of ******** bias things that went on.

Coaches area, must show id (black belt) to sit behind there and coach. AOJ blue belts in there all day coaching while I had to go back and get my id to get in. So blatant that it was starting to get funny and we weren't shy while laughing about it.

Next. If you are American, please stop talking to your American friend with a broken Portuguese accent. You look like a *******. You are American and speak English, so be American and speak English. The Brazilians are laughing at you when they hear that.

I hope to see some sort of changes in all this but I'm not confident I will. Everyone puts so much merit in these events because it's the IBJJF, but the IBJJF needs to take responsibility for some of the stuff that goes on. If they don't, sooner or later more people like me will get fed up with it and either move on or create something else. I'm interested in the event at the pyramid next weekend that took the venue away from the IBJJF.

I'm not going to mention the other dad that was sitting there with me so no one gets thrown under the bus, but there were a few popular dad's of some popular kids with me that agreed and said the same thing, probably just not as outspoken as me. Oops"


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## Buka (Nov 8, 2016)

On Renzo -

Never met Renzo, but, some of my friends have trained with him. Back in the nineties, Renzo was competing in an MMA fight against an Olympic Judoka from the Netherlands. I was watching the fight on TV and Renzo choked him out with a lapel choke. Then, Renzo stepped over him and kicked him in the head as he did so. That really bothered me. A lot, actually. And, man, did he et booed. But then...

A long time training partner of mine, (one who used to be my student, and twenty five years later was one of my primary instructors), happened to be working as the cornerman of a fighter on the same card. His fighter's locker room was next to Renzo's. My training partner, Shawn, was standing outside the locker room, right next to Renzo's door when the Judoka (Renzo's opponent) walked up and knocked on Renzo's door. He was doing so on the advice of his coach/trainer who wanted to make Renzo angry - in order to take him out of his game. 

The door opened and the Judoka said to Renzo "_You have beautiful eyes, just like my girlfriend, and when I get you in the ring I'm going to F you just like I F her_", and walked away. Renzo's people held him back. My buddy Shawn nearly soiled himself. He was standing two feet away.

From what I've been told, the step over and kick to the head is an insult in Brazil, at least in the milieu Renzo grew up in. And I don't blame him one little bit. (Man, talk about really, really bad advice from a trainer.)

That's when I first hated a guy I have never met - and then didn't. 
The point of all this? I dunno', good story, though. Glad I got it first hand.


----------



## marques (Nov 8, 2016)

Buka said:


> On Renzo -
> 
> Never met Renzo, but, some of my friends have trained with him. Back in the nineties, Renzo was competing in an MMA fight against an Olympic Judoka from the Netherlands. I was watching the fight on TV and Renzo choked him out with a lapel choke. Then, Renzo stepped over him and kicked him in the head as he did so. That really bothered me. A lot, actually. And, man, did he et booed. But then...
> 
> ...


Good story.
We are quick judging, but we never know the full story... 
(Perhaps Renzo did something worse before to the Judocas's trainer!  )


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 8, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I think the constant denial that you both engage in the behavior of belittling other styles is outright dishonest. And the only reason this argument even exists.
> 
> This thread is a response to other threads. But you are trying to claim actions in other threads should not apply?



Speaking of dishonest, your approach to this is rather deceptive don't you think

Again, please, show me a thread where I belittled another style, please I implore you to look and point them out to me. I am truly interested in seeing a post where I did this.

Again, you are trying to get an argument and using fabrication in an attempt to get one....


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Nov 8, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Speaking of dishonest, your approach to this is rather deceptive don't you think
> 
> Again, please, show me a thread where I belittled another style, please I implore you to look and point them out to me. I am truly interested in seeing a post where I did this.
> 
> Again, you are trying to get an argument and using fabrication in an attempt to get one....



It's quite funny he's saying all this when he's the one involved in pretty much every argument on this board


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2016)

I've never know in the past ten years XS to ever disrespect or disparage any other martial art, he's actually far more reasonable and less argumentative than most of us here. I have huge admiration and respect for him, which of course won't mean much to those who care little about anything I write lol but there you go.


----------



## msmitht (Nov 8, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Chris Brennan  posted up not long ago on FB. Not a happy man.
> 
> 
> Chris Brennan
> ...


Interesting. coached at many ibjjf events and never seen this. seen a purple and brown belt kicked out of world's for being in coaching area and one was AOJ and the other GB so I think he was exaggerating or they have since fixed. Yes they were Brazilian.  seen black belts asked to leave coaching area for talking to refs this year so they fixed that. poor reffing you will find everywhere and in every sport but i rarely see it in bjj and trust me, those refs are called out and have to answer for their mistakes afterwards.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2016)

msmitht said:


> Interesting. coached at many ibjjf events and never seen this. seen a purple and brown belt kicked out of world's for being in coaching area and one was AOJ and the other GB so I think he was exaggerating or they have since fixed. Yes they were Brazilian.  seen black belts asked to leave coaching area for talking to refs this year so they fixed that. poor reffing you will find everywhere and in every sport but i rarely see it in bjj and trust me, those refs are called out and have to answer for their mistakes afterwards.



Problems happen everywhere. We had a Brazilian BJJ instructor come up and do a couple of seminars, he wasn't available for a third as he'd been sent to prison for rape and assault.


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## msmitht (Nov 8, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Problems happen everywhere. We had a Brazilian BJJ instructor come up and do a couple of seminars, he wasn't available for a third as he'd been sent to prison for rape and assault.


This is sad but much less common in BJJ than karate or tkd. Being a skilled athlete or teacher does not disqualify  person from being a total douchebag .


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## Tez3 (Nov 8, 2016)

msmitht said:


> This is sad but much less common in BJJ than karate or tkd. Being a skilled athlete or teacher does not disqualify  person from being a total douchebag .



That doesn't really mean a lot as there are far less BJJ people in the UK than karate or TKD. It's still relatively new compared to the other two. The point was though that the people extolling the virtues of BJJers over every other style should remember that human nature being what it is there will always be the idiots, the charlatans and the numpties in all styles, none excepted.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Nov 8, 2016)

msmitht said:


> This is sad but much less common in BJJ than karate or tkd. Being a skilled athlete or teacher does not disqualify  person from being a total douchebag .


I don't know of any good reason to think that criminals and douchebags are any less common in one martial art than in another.


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 8, 2016)

msmitht said:


> This is sad but much less common in BJJ than karate or tkd. Being a skilled athlete or teacher does not disqualify  person from being a total douchebag .


Sorry but that's nonsense being a scummy person isn't defined by what martial art you do. There will be scumbags in karate, kickboxing, judo, jiu jitsu, tai chi saying its less common in jiu jitsu is just ridiculous what proof is there that its not as common


----------



## drop bear (Nov 8, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I've never know in the past ten years XS to ever disrespect or disparage any other martial art, he's actually far more reasonable and less argumentative than most of us here. I have huge admiration and respect for him, which of course won't mean much to those who care little about anything I write lol but there you go.



I did quote the conversation right back at the start.  So we can't really all pretend it did not happen.

Which is kind of a weird way of approaching a conversation that is all recorded.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 8, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> It's quite funny he's saying all this when he's the one involved in pretty much every argument on this board



I had left it alone that is why i didn't respond to your last post. 

And you are still taking pot shots. 

You are not very good at living by your own set of standards. They seem to be only for other people.


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Nov 8, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I had left it alone that is why i didn't respond to your last post.
> 
> And you are still taking pot shots.
> 
> You are not very good at living by your own set of standards. They seem to be only for other people.


Yeah because you keep repeating yourself and looking for trouble


----------



## drop bear (Nov 8, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Yeah because you keep repeating yourself and looking for trouble



How is it my fault that you can't live up to your own set of standards?

I mean if you dont like to argue.  Then don't if you dont like style vs style then don't engage in style vs style. If you dont want your style belittled. Don't get caught out belittling other styles.

There are plenty of subjects I dont like.  Lineage wars bore me. Internal art discussions are pretty pointless. But I dont go around crying because people have them.  If that is their thing then go for it.  There are plenty of conversations i can have that i do like. 

Have you stopped to consider that you are trying to moderate everyone else but yourself?


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Nov 8, 2016)

drop bear said:


> How is it my fault that you can't live up to your own set of standards?
> 
> I mean if you dont like to argue.  Then don't if you dont like style vs style then don't engage in style vs style. If you dont want your style belittled. Don't get caught out belittling other styles.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah I'm crying my eyes out people have them aren't I. I never said it was wrong to discuss the differences I said its stupid to insult people and belittle them and yes I'm sure you'll bring up that video again and yet again ill tell you that's not martial arts and I said its stupid to challenge people or worry about who would win. Now I'm going to ignore you because you're boring me


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 8, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I did quote the conversation right back at the start.  So we can't really all pretend it did not happen.
> 
> Which is kind of a weird way of approaching a conversation that is all recorded.



It is rather weird to take things out of context, slap them together, and try and present them as truth too, but yet you continue to do so. That is a great way to push propaganda, but it most certainly is not truth. But to be honest I expect this response from you.

You quoted something that was said about the Ki master, which was a side conversation, and was not about the OPs topic, then put them together as a series of quote, out of context and out of proper order, and made it sound as if it was in response to the OP. We don't have to pretend it didn't happen, because it didn't happen as you are trying to present it, you are however pretending happen and continuing to push your misrepresentation in a quest for an argument. If you post things that ate not true, as you did, does not make them true.

Sorry, but it appears all you have here is misrepresentation, unfounded accusations and propaganda which you have been called on and caught doing and yet you continue to try and push your misrepresentation as truth.

I have no need to continue this conversation with you since you will never admit mistake or misrepresentation. And I have no need to prove anything to you, those who know me, know how I post, and those that know you know how you post.

I shall no longer waste my time on you here

Have a nice day


----------



## Steve (Nov 9, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Chris Brennan  posted up not long ago on FB. Not a happy man.
> 
> 
> Chris Brennan
> ...


Good points.  The great thing about this is that there are other tournament venues popping up all the time.  From ADCC to the sub only or variations that crop up.


----------



## Steve (Nov 9, 2016)

msmitht said:


> This is sad but much less common in BJJ than karate or tkd. Being a skilled athlete or teacher does not disqualify  person from being a total douchebag .


I don't know that it's less common.  I do know it happens.  There was a GB black belt convicted in Yakima, WA couple years ago.  Cristiano Oliveira.  Scumbags can be anywhere, but sexual assault is sadly common in BJJ, and the real indication of character is what the community does when misconduct and misbehavior is identified.


----------



## Steve (Nov 9, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> It is rather weird to take things out of context, slap them together, and try and present them as truth too, but yet you continue to do so. That is a great way to push propaganda, but it most certainly is not truth. But to be honest I expect this response from you.
> 
> You quoted something that was said about the Ki master, which was a side conversation, and was not about the OPs topic, then put them together as a series of quote, out of context and out of proper order, and made it sound as if it was in response to the OP. We don't have to pretend it didn't happen, because it didn't happen as you are trying to present it, you are however pretending happen and continuing to push your misrepresentation in a quest for an argument. If you post things that ate not true, as you did, does not make them true.
> 
> ...


Glass houses, Xue.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> Glass houses, Xue.



Glasshouses...interesting

I was actually expecting you to show up in support of Dropbear, and you did not disppoint

Now I ask you to please show me a thread where I belittled another art, I implore you actually. And also since you are saying glass house, please show me where I quoted other posters and made it look like they were answers to a post they were not related to.

Basically I implore you to please find posts where I was disingenuous and spreading untruths as well as belittling other arts as Dropbear has accused me of. If you can I welcome them and I will likely apologize for them, if you cannot, then lets just let it go


----------



## Steve (Nov 9, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Glasshouses...interesting
> 
> I was actually expecting you to show up in support of Dropbear, and you did not disppoint
> 
> ...


Xue, frankly, I think YOU should just let it go.  You get worked up.  Pretend you aren't worked up.  Say things that belong more on a grade school playground and finish every post with a statement about taking your ball and going home.

I'm not defending Drop Bear.  I honestly couldn't care less about whether you belittle other arts.  If you want to belittle BJJ, great.  Have at it, as far as I'm concerned.  Belittle or don't belittle.  Matters not one whit to me.

And if you want to insult people in an excruciatingly passive aggressive manner, have at it.  Once again, it's not that, just like it's not whether you've belittled another art or not.

It's the hypocrisy that drives me nuts.  That and the whining.  It's that you criticize others for the behavior you actively engage in yourself.  If you don't like it, don't do it.   So, when I say glass houses, it's not because I care one way or the other whether you like, dislike or don't care about MMA, BJJ or any other art.  It's that you and a couple of others are suggesting that you are some beacon of rationality.  Your responses in this thread are ample evidence to the contrary, IMO.

And the rubber/glue response is fine.  I expect and welcome it.  I know that the next post is where you tell me I do the same thing.  I'm okay with it.  Unless this actually gets you to stop, which would be just fine, too.

Edit:  Just out of curiosity, I went back through the entire thread to make sure, and in 7 pages, I haven't had any interaction with either drop bear or you, so if you've been waiting, I'm sorry to have kept you so long.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> Xue, frankly, I think YOU should just let it go.  You get worked up.  Pretend you aren't worked up.  Say things that belong more on a grade school playground and finish every post with a statement about taking your ball and going home.
> 
> I'm not defending Drop Bear.  I honestly couldn't care less about whether you belittle other arts.  If you want to belittle BJJ, great.  Have at it, as far as I'm concerned.  Belittle or don't belittle.  Matters not one whit to me.
> 
> ...



Steve

I am not worked up at all, but apparently you are. I am actually rather calm and have been in all my posts in this thread, I tend to not let MT get to me like it use to. All I have asked for is proof of what I have been accused of and as well as asked why what I posted was used on answer to a post I was not answering. And you are reading much more into what I post than what is actually there. However I am getting the distinct impression that you have issues with me, based on a few of our past interactions. I apologize if I upset you this way. Might I suggest the ignore function if I upset you that much


----------



## Steve (Nov 9, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Steve
> 
> I am not worked up at all, but apparently you are. I am actually rather calm and have been in all my posts in this thread, I tend to not let MT get to me like it use to. All I have asked for is proof of what I have been accused of and as well as asked why what I posted was used on answer to a post I was not answering. And you are reading much more into what I post than what is actually there. However I am getting the distinct impression that you have issues with me, based on a few of our past interactions. I apologize if I upset you this way. Might I suggest the ignore function if I upset you that much


I know.  I know.  I'm glue.


----------



## Buka (Nov 9, 2016)

I'm old, foolish and tend to skip through a lot of posts/threads because there's just so many of them, so I'm most times not really sure what people argue about.

But if we were in the school yard......darest I say, we would be running over, yelling to others, "Fight! Fight!"
....of course then a mod would step in, and, of course, if we saw him coming we'd be saying out of the sides of our mouth - "teacher, teacher" and be walking off in different directions so as to not get in trouble.

I know it's not a fight. I'm just funnin'.


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## wingchun100 (Nov 16, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Taking multiple posts out of context and linking them to what Kickbox101 posted means what exactly?


 
I think it means your style sucks. LOL


----------



## stonewall1350 (Nov 16, 2016)

Here is my reply to the topic and it has essentially been stated...so I will just rehash it in my own words lol.

There is no "best style" only the "best fighter in a fight." Experience in an actual fight will probably give you a much bigger edge than experience in a specific style. If you take your black belt in karate or your "black shirt" in MMA (yea I know a place that does that)...and go out to the "hood" and try to fist fight some 20 year old hardcore thug who has been brawling for 10 years with no official training...there is a good chance he is going to beat your tail wholesale. 

That is why I carry a gun. Too many people know too many things. I have no intention of EVER fighting someone (as the OP said). If I were forced to fight someone...I would use my knowledge of grappling to evade and get to the gun. Or to take him off his feet. Period. And that works for ME.

*There is a best style for ME. It won't be the same as the best style for YOU. *


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 17, 2016)

The best thing to do is keep training and don't worry about it.


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## Hanzou (Nov 17, 2016)

stonewall1350 said:


> Here is my reply to the topic and it has essentially been stated...so I will just rehash it in my own words lol.
> 
> There is no "best style" only the "best fighter in a fight." Experience in an actual fight will probably give you a much bigger edge than experience in a specific style. If you take your black belt in karate or your "black shirt" in MMA (yea I know a place that does that)...and go out to the "hood" and try to fist fight some 20 year old hardcore thug who has been brawling for 10 years with no official training...there is a good chance he is going to beat your tail wholesale.



While that's a great bumper sticker, the truth is quite a bit more complex. There is evidence that supports that people coming out of style A are better fighters on average than people coming out of style B. This is mainly due to training methodology and other practices. 

Personally, I'd say that sport MAs have a pretty large advantage over traditional MAs.


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## KenpoBoxer (Nov 17, 2016)

Of course there's no best style. Traditional styles work as do sports. The reason traditional arts aren't used in the ring is because most people who train them simply don't want to compete. If Anderson silva never chose to step in the ring does that mean his skills would be any worse no of course not. Like has been said on here anyone can beat anyone a 10 year old kid could walk up to any of us and knock us out with 1 punch. Martial arts give you some tools but they don't turn you into an indestructible machine


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## Steve (Nov 17, 2016)

KenpoBoxer said:


> Of course there's no best style. Traditional styles work as do sports. The reason traditional arts aren't used in the ring is because most people who train them simply don't want to compete. If Anderson silva never chose to step in the ring does that mean his skills would be any worse no of course not.


I think if Anderson Silva had never competed, he would be a much less effective martial artist.   Absolutely.  There isn't a doubt in my mind.

Further, I would say that HOW he trained and competed was more important than in which style or styles he trained.  In other words, a guy who trains in any style, who actively and consistently applies technique in a competitive environment will ALWAYS perform better than a person who trains in any style and doesn't apply the technique in a competitive environment.



> Like has been said on here anyone can beat anyone a 10 year old kid could walk up to any of us and knock us out with 1 punch. Martial arts give you some tools but they don't turn you into an indestructible machine


There is no 10 year old in the world who could walk up to a healthy, unimpaired adult and knock him or her out with one punch without the full cooperation of that adult.  That's just not going to happen in the real world.

Martial arts may give a 10 year old some skills, but they won't turn that kid into Mike Tyson.

And regarding the larger issues being discussed, it's not about style vs style, but training model vs training model, and people need to just accept that the best most of us can hope for is mostly harmless.  No matter how deadly you think you are, you aren't.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 17, 2016)

Anderson silva tends to train pretty hard for someone who could achieve the same results at the self defence class at the YMCA.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 17, 2016)

Steve said:


> I think if Anderson Silva had never competed, he would be a much less effective martial artist.   Absolutely.  There isn't a doubt in my mind.
> 
> Further, I would say that HOW he trained and competed was more important than in which style or styles he trained.  In other words, a guy who trains in any style, who actively and consistently applies technique in a competitive environment will ALWAYS perform better than a person who trains in any style and doesn't apply the technique in a competitive environment.
> 
> And regarding the larger issues being discussed, it's not about style vs style, but training model vs training model, and people need to just accept that the best most of us can hope for is mostly harmless.  No matter how deadly you think you are, you aren't.


So, you're arguing that someone who trains for point sparring (very light touch, no intent required) is better equipped than someone who trains hard but never competes? That's what I hear when I read "a guy who trains in any style, who actively and consistently applies technique in a competitive environment will ALWAYS perform better than a person who trains in any style and doesn't apply the technique in a competitive environment". 

I'd disagree almost completely on that one. Training for competition makes you better at what you train for, which is the competition. If the skills you train for competition are also useful for another context (like defending yourself on the street), then the person who trains those skills for competition likely has an advantage over the person who doesn't.

Competition isn't a magic pill. Competing in the right skills, under the right rules, gives an advantage in combat effectiveness. Competing under a different set of rules does not. It goes back to the same concept you're talking about with training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Anderson silva tends to train pretty hard for someone who could achieve the same results at the self defence class at the YMCA.


Yeah, no way anybody is getting those results from the average instructor, especially in 2-3 hours a week. They might get those results without competing (I doubt it, but I'll allow it's possible), but not without training at that intensity and with people capable of training him at that level. Just like attending the swimming classes at the Y won't develop anyone into the next Michael Phelps. Of course, those swimming classes can very easily make someone a capable swimmer, but never at that level.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 17, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, no way anybody is getting those results from the average instructor, especially in 2-3 hours a week. They might get those results without competing (I doubt it, but I'll allow it's possible), but not without training at that intensity and with people capable of training him at that level. Just like attending the swimming classes at the Y won't develop anyone into the next Michael Phelps. Of course, those swimming classes can very easily make someone a capable swimmer, but never at that level.



One of the things that was brought to mind when writing that was that i am under no illusions that there are tougher schools with better systems than mine.  And that becomes a driving force or an inspiration to improve or adapt.

Otherwise the swimming factor is a different one again a bit.  As it becomes a bit cultural. Australians will always be dominant swimmers due to the amount of participation and resources put in to the sport.


----------



## Steve (Nov 17, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> So, you're arguing that someone who trains for point sparring (very light touch, no intent required) is better equipped than someone who trains hard but never competes? That's what I hear when I read "a guy who trains in any style, who actively and consistently applies technique in a competitive environment will ALWAYS perform better than a person who trains in any style and doesn't apply the technique in a competitive environment".
> 
> I'd disagree almost completely on that one. Training for competition makes you better at what you train for, which is the competition. If the skills you train for competition are also useful for another context (like defending yourself on the street), then the person who trains those skills for competition likely has an advantage over the person who doesn't.
> 
> Competition isn't a magic pill. Competing in the right skills, under the right rules, gives an advantage in combat effectiveness. Competing under a different set of rules does not. It goes back to the same concept you're talking about with training.


I'm pretty sure I didn't say sparring, point sparring or otherwise.  

Straw man aside, I would say that everything is a spectrum.  It's not off/on.  Some training is better than others, just as some competition will be closer to real world violence than others.   But doing something will always build skill more reliably than pretending.   

And I wouldn't say competition is a magic pill.  It's a very important piece of the puzzle that those who don't compete never get.  competition gives you something that impossible to replicate for most people.  And it's much easier to adapt actual, well developed skills to a new context than to rely upon poorly developed, untested skills to any context.


----------



## Steve (Nov 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


> One of the things that was brought to mind when writing that was that i am under no illusions that there are tougher schools with better systems than mine.  And that becomes a driving force or an inspiration to improve or adapt.
> 
> Otherwise the swimming factor is a different one again a bit.  As it becomes a bit cultural. Australians will always be dominant swimmers due to the amount of participation and resources put in to the sport.


When you swim, you tend to get better at it.  Makes sense to me.   Some people want to believe that fighting is the one physical activity in all human existence that can be learned to an expert level without any actual experience.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Nov 17, 2016)

Steve said:


> When you swim, you tend to get better at it.  Makes sense to me.   Some people want to believe that fighting is the one physical activity in all human existence that can be learned to an expert level without any actual experience.



Unless I missed something here I don't see anyone claiming this. What people are saying is that the style doesn't matter, the individual and the way he or she trains is what matters.

If I spend years and years only hitting the air and bags, pads. I will be very good at hitting the air and pads and bags. Put a person there and then it is a whole other story.

Resistance training is what will set the two apart and it doesn't matter if it is karate or Taiji Quan or whatever the name is.


----------



## Steve (Nov 17, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Unless I missed something here I don't see anyone claiming this. What people are saying is that the style doesn't matter, the individual and the way he or she trains is what matters.
> 
> If I spend years and years only hitting the air and bags, pads. I will be very good at hitting the air and pads and bags. Put a person there and then it is a whole other story.
> 
> Resistance training is what will set the two apart and it doesn't matter if it is karate or Taiji Quan or whatever the name is.


dude, you're saying the same thing I'm saying.   I'm just being more specific.

And if you think Anderson Silva would be as effective if he didn't compete, or that. 10 year old could ever knock anyone out with one punch, you're delusional.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 17, 2016)

KenpoBoxer said:


> Of course there's no best style. Traditional styles work as do sports. The reason traditional arts aren't used in the ring is because most people who train them simply don't want to compete.



Except traditional styles have been used in the ring, and there's been plenty of traditionalists who have competed. By and large those traditionalists got splattered on the canvas which caused other traditionalists to stay clear and claim loudly from the sidelines that their style is "too deadly" for the ring.

I think it's time we simply be honest with ourselves and admit that some styles are more geared towards actually fighting, and other styles are simply cultural pursuits.


----------



## mograph (Nov 17, 2016)

I don't know if this is just a western thing, but there's too much "distance learning" out there:

If I buy a book, I will learn it.
If I watch a video, I will learn it.
Which style should I pick? Once I pick a style, I'm set.
What are some psychological hacks to learn this?
Practicing drills is boring. What are the shortcuts?
I had a friend who said that anything could be learned from a book. So she bought a book and read it. What was the topic? _Golf_.
You can guess how it went when her husband took her out on the links.
_"Golf is a stupid game! Stupid!"_

I think we all need to remember that the best practitioners of any art practice at a professional, all-day level: athletes, musicians, craftspersons. Why should martial arts be different? We need to practice _all of it_, hands-on, as often as we can, right?


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> dude, you're saying the same thing I'm saying.   I'm just being more specific.
> 
> And if you think Anderson Silva would be as effective if he didn't compete, or that. 10 year old could ever knock anyone out with one punch, you're delusional.



I disagreed with you not about Silva. Competition does make people better because that motivated them to train harder. I don't agree that a ten year old couldnt knock someone out with one hit. You ever been kicked in the balls before? It doesn't take much to knock someone out or at least put them down for a considerable amount of time.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Nov 18, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Except traditional styles have been used in the ring, and there's been plenty of traditionalists who have competed. By and large those traditionalists got splattered on the canvas which caused other traditionalists to stay clear and claim loudly from the sidelines that their style is "too deadly" for the ring.
> 
> I think it's time we simply be honest with ourselves and admit that some styles are more geared towards actually fighting, and other styles are simply cultural pursuits.



Kenpo karate. Shoalin kung fu. Tae Kwon do all have their place in the competitive and mma competitive scene. The difference is the "purists" are the ones who get splattered because the purists tend to train in a bubble.


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## Hanzou (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Kenpo karate. Shoalin kung fu. Tae Kwon do all have their place in the competitive and mma competitive scene. The difference is the "purists" are the ones who get splattered because the purists tend to train in a bubble.



Only in the most broken down of fashion (i.e. a fighter having studied Shaolin Kung Fu but now his style is completely overridden by standard MMA). For example, I know some people like to say that Chuck Liddell is proof that Kenpo Karate is effective in MMA, seemingly forgetting that Liddell also studied Boxing and Kickboxing, and those striking systems are far more apparent than Kenpo.

There are quite a few successful MMA purists. They almost all tend to be Bjj fighters though.


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## Steve (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I disagreed with you not about Silva. Competition does make people better because that motivated them to train harder. I don't agree that a ten year old couldnt knock someone out with one hit. You ever been kicked in the balls before? It doesn't take much to knock someone out or at least put them down for a considerable amount of time.


Yes, I've been kicked in the balls.  Couple of things.  First, that's not ever going to knock someone out.   Wrong body part.  Second, a 10 year old is never going to take out a healthy, unimpaired adult with a kick to the balls unless the adult is fully cooperating.   

In the real,world, no 10 "year old will successfully knock out or incapacitate a healthy, unimpaired adult.


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## Balrog (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> And who is teaching people how to not fight? This argument here is pointless because no "martial arts" place is going to teach you literally nothing.


Wellll.....it kinda depends on your concept of teaching people how to not fight.  That's what I do.  Mind you, they still learn the basics of punching and kicking, etc., but I also teach situational awareness and avoidance as major components of self-defense.

We train for the 1%.  By that, I mean that 99% of the time, our awareness and confidence will handle the situation.  When the bad guy profiles for a victim, he sees us and sees the confident body language and the constant scanning of the environment around us, and he passes us over in favor of someone that he thinks he can attack and get away with it.  Quite in keeping with Sun Tzu, actually, where he says

_Therefore, to achieve a hundred victories in a hundred battles is not the highest excellence; to subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of excellence._

The 1% is the bad guy that just pops up out of the weeds.  He didn't profile, he just decided to jump on the next person he sees, or he's messed up on booze or drugs to where he's not thinking straight, etc.  Now we have to actually use the skills we have learned.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> I'm pretty sure I didn't say sparring, point sparring or otherwise.
> 
> Straw man aside, I would say that everything is a spectrum.  It's not off/on.  Some training is better than others, just as some competition will be closer to real world violence than others.   But doing something will always build skill more reliably than pretending.
> 
> And I wouldn't say competition is a magic pill.  It's a very important piece of the puzzle that those who don't compete never get.  competition gives you something that impossible to replicate for most people.  And it's much easier to adapt actual, well developed skills to a new context than to rely upon poorly developed, untested skills to any context.


Okay, stated that way I can mostly agree with you. I was disagreeing with what I read in that statement I quoted, which you've clarified here. Just so I'm being clear, there are point sparring competitions, so when you said any competition, I included those in my reading - clearly not what you meant.

I still hold that for many people - definitely not all - most of what is gained in open competition can be gained from sparring to win in the dojo, assuming all there are actually trying. Of course, if there are few in the dojo at your own level, you get the least benefit from that sparring, which is one of the benefits of competition.

I was talking this through with my wife (also a martial artist, though less intensely involved in it than I am) last night, trying to figure out how to explain part of my point about competition. It's mostly this: I'm not personally willing to bring my strongest technique to competition if there's a reasonable chance of hurting someone (like knocking them out). So I wouldn't get the same benefit from competition as someone who is willing to bring that. And since I'm not willing to bring that to competition, I'd be at a severe disadvantage in competitions where someone with equal skill is willing to bring that. Friendly competition around safe submissions - like most BJJ competition - would suit me as long as it stays friendly. MMA, boxing, and full-contact kickboxing simply wouldn't, and I wouldn't learn much in that environment. Those friendly competitions don't bring any real stress to me - they don't feel any different to me than working out in the dojo, so the only real benefit I gain there is being surprised by working with folks I've never worked with before, and I can get that in other ways, too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> When you swim, you tend to get better at it.  Makes sense to me.   Some people want to believe that fighting is the one physical activity in all human existence that can be learned to an expert level without any actual experience.


But "swimming" isn't the same thing in every context, either, just like "fighting". If I want to get good at blocking and punching in a dynamic situation against an aggressive opponent, I need to practice blocking in a dynamic situation against an aggressive opponent. A competition isn't the only way to do that. Plenty of people become highly competent swimmers without ever competing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 18, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Except traditional styles have been used in the ring, and there's been plenty of traditionalists who have competed. By and large those traditionalists got splattered on the canvas which caused other traditionalists to stay clear and claim loudly from the sidelines that their style is "too deadly" for the ring.
> 
> I think it's time we simply be honest with ourselves and admit that some styles are more geared towards actually fighting, and other styles are simply cultural pursuits.


We have to also admit that fighting in a ring/octagon, while a good analogy, is not the same as fighting off an attacker. Just because something isn't fully effective against a well-trained, fit, muscular MMA fighter doesn't mean it's not effective for dealing with an attacker on the street.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I disagreed with you not about Silva. Competition does make people better because that motivated them to train harder. I don't agree that a ten year old couldnt knock someone out with one hit. You ever been kicked in the balls before? It doesn't take much to knock someone out or at least put them down for a considerable amount of time.


Actually, having played soccer my entire youth, I took many nutshots. Not all of them put me down - that requires a certain level of force. It also requires they actually be able to kick you there, and that's reasonably hard to do with someone who's paying attention.


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## Steve (Nov 18, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> But "swimming" isn't the same thing in every context, either, just like "fighting". If I want to get good at blocking and punching in a dynamic situation against an aggressive opponent, I need to practice blocking in a dynamic situation against an aggressive opponent. A competition isn't the only way to do that. Plenty of people become highly competent swimmers without ever competing.


A person who can swim in a pool will find it much easier to swim in a lake than someone who has only practiced swimming by waving his arms conviningly.
 What's the one thing every competent swimmer has in common?   They all swim.


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## Steve (Nov 18, 2016)

Just to add a little bit more with an actual keyboard, competition isn't the only way to gain experience.  Actual experience is the only way to gain experience.

So, when we talk about fighting skills, the experience being gained in competition is in punching, kicking and otherwise executing technique in a fully non-compliant, unrehearsed encounter where there is immediate, physical and mental feedback for incompetence. 

If you want to learn to play golf, you have to actually play golf.  If you want to learn to fly a plane, at some point you will need to actually fly a plane.  But with "self defense" there is a shocking degree of cognitive dissonance.  On the one hand, everyone agrees that how one trains matters, but on the other, these same people will deride competitive arts because they are unrealistic.  It's mind-blowing.

The equivalent to the swimming analogy in fighting is competition vs non-competitive arts.  If you've actually punched, kicked and otherwise executed technique in fully non-compliant, unrehearsed encounters, you will be better equipped to execute those techniques in a different context than someone who has waved his arms around in a convincing manner.

I have been told by "experts" here on this forum that the other stuff... the non-fighting stuff is actually pretty easy to teach, which is why they spend so much time on the "fighting" part of self defense in their training.  That fighting part is the part I believe benefits the most from competition.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 18, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Only in the most broken down of fashion (i.e. a fighter having studied Shaolin Kung Fu but now his style is completely overridden by standard MMA). For example, I know some people like to say that Chuck Liddell is proof that Kenpo Karate is effective in MMA, seemingly forgetting that Liddell also studied Boxing and Kickboxing, and those striking systems are far more apparent than Kenpo.
> 
> There are quite a few successful MMA purists. They almost all tend to be Bjj fighters though.



I'm not forgetting. I brought him up for a reason which is to say purists don't succeed. He is not only a high Dan in Kenpo but also a good wrestler. Kenpo karate taken into a sport pretty much turns into kick boxing by the way so nothing got overridden. MMA purists? That statement literally doesn't make sense because the statement in itself means to mix arts, and purists bjj doesn't go very far. This isn't 1992 anymore.


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## BigMotor (Nov 18, 2016)

My short answer is, the better fighter wins, the one who knows what he is doing, wins. And that is regardless of what style or school he is trained in.

Wing Chun is no doubt an excellent method of fighting; and so is boxing, if the fighter is skilled at it.
And, that is my answer, the skilled fighter and the one with the most heart, will win.

*Note:* How many excellent fighters have been taken out, by some creep ambushing them?
I suspect that there have been a few. A good fighter remains ready to go, and I think that some people forget that.

The man that made the video, seems like someone who could fight his way out of a bad situation.


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## Hanzou (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I'm not forgetting. I brought him up for a reason which is to say purists don't succeed. He is not only a high Dan in Kenpo but also a good wrestler. Kenpo karate taken into a sport pretty much turns into kick boxing by the way so nothing got overridden. MMA purists? That statement literally doesn't make sense because the statement in itself means to mix arts, and purists bjj doesn't go very far. This isn't 1992 anymore.



Yeah, but when you think Chuck Liddell you don't think Kenpo, you think brawler. He isn't exactly fighting like Jeff Speakman in the perfect weapon. He's fighting like a boxer who can stuff takedowns. There's very little traditional about the way he fights.

As for "purists" obviously anyone fighting in MMA if going to have to learn a variety of things in order to be successful. However, fighters like Kron Gracie, Mckenzie Dern, Angela Lee, and a few others are doing pretty much nothing but Bjj in their fights and they're doing quite well in MMA.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 18, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Jeff Speakman in the perfect weapon



Well because that was a movie... It was choreographed and faked for entertainment value.



Hanzou said:


> He's fighting like a boxer who can stuff takedowns. There's very little traditional about the way he fights.



Because boxers throw elbows and kicks? Those fighters you also mentioned do not train in a bubble either. They may be using prominently bjj but they were trained how to deal with strikes and grappling.


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## drop bear (Nov 18, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> But "swimming" isn't the same thing in every context, either, just like "fighting". If I want to get good at blocking and punching in a dynamic situation against an aggressive opponent, I need to practice blocking in a dynamic situation against an aggressive opponent. A competition isn't the only way to do that. Plenty of people become highly competent swimmers without ever competing.



The "in a bubble" is a good way to be mindful of your trainings shortcomings.

Competition by definition takes you out of that bubble. We discussed fake BJJ blackbelts and one of their quality control mesures to prevent this is a real BJJ black belt may turn up on your doorstep. (And so you are out of that bubble again)

Swimming can take you out of that bubble without ever having to compete because you have defined results. distance or time. If i had to outswim a threat all i have to do is go faster or longer. so my boat capsizes it is 8k to shore. I set for more than an 8k swim.

Or you can figure out pretty easily who is a good swimmer and who is a bad one.

Self defence does not necessarily ever have to leave the bubble. It does not have that set of objectives. Even if I do spar. All i may have to do is beat the other guys in the room. Which in a bubble is not a good test.

So that outside influence. (not necessarily competition but including it) is also a vital component.

This is why self defence objectives are so vague and unworkable generally.


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## Hanzou (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well because that was a movie... It was choreographed and faked for entertainment value.



Really? Speakman still fights like that. At least, when he (or his students) is/are doing choreographed drills;









> Because boxers throw elbows and kicks?



Elbows? Why yes.



> Those fighters you also mentioned do not train in a bubble either. They may be using prominently bjj but they were trained how to deal with strikes and grappling.



Bjj teaches you how to deal with strikes and grappling.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 18, 2016)

Hanzou said:


>


In reality, when you make one move, your opponent will respond with 1 move, you then react to his respond.


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## drop bear (Nov 18, 2016)

BigMotor said:


> My short answer is, the better fighter wins, the one who knows what he is doing, wins. And that is regardless of what style or school he is trained in.
> 
> Wing Chun is no doubt an excellent method of fighting; and so is boxing, if the fighter is skilled at it.
> And, that is my answer, the skilled fighter and the one with the most heart, will win.
> ...



The issue you may get there is if you focus on undefinable results. it removes  the importance of getting the definable parts of your training correct.

So yes a trained fighter could get jumped and bashed. But how do you train to defend that in a way where the results are predictable?

Does that mean that punching kicking grappling is less important?


----------



## drop bear (Nov 18, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Really? Speakman still fights like that. At least, when he (or his students) is/are doing choreographed drills;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aside from everything else that is wrong with that. Why are only 2 people in the room training at any given time?


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 18, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Really? Speakman still fights like that. At least, when he (or his students) is/are doing choreographed drills;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Throwing elbows is illegal in boxing. The mma fighters you listed train with people outside of bjj is what I am saying. So you answered your own question, he "fights" like that in drills. Well drills are not fighting so that statement is moot. The technique drills are to teach you body mechanics and show what you could do in a fight. I myself have used variations of them and never done the technique in its entirety.

In sparring I use none of the techniques but I use the principles taught by them. Things such as blocking/parrying and side stepping just enough to not get it, but not put yourself too far away to strike back.


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## Hanzou (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Throwing elbows is illegal in boxing.



Of course, but Boxers still know how to throw them.



> The mma fighters you listed train with people outside of bjj is what I am saying.



And what I'm saying is that nothing they're doing is outside of the realm of old school Bjj training. You'd be hard-pressed to distinguish what Kron or McKenzie are doing from what Royce was doing way back in the first UFC. The current crop of Bjj fighters in MMA is about as "pure" as you get in MMA.



> So you answered your own question, he "fights" like that in drills. Well drills are not fighting so that statement is moot. The technique drills are to teach you body mechanics and show what you could do in a fight. I myself have used variations of them and never done the technique in its entirety.



You told me that all that stuff Speakman was doing was just make-believe and movie choreography. Now when I show him doing that exact same silliness in his dojo, you're making excuses for it?

Hilarious.

BTW, those drills aren't teaching you body mechanics, they're teaching you that if bad guy tries to punch you in the face, you block and hit him 50 times and finish it off with a deadly kick.

Just like the movies.



> In sparring I use none of the techniques but I use the principles taught by them. Things such as blocking/parrying and side stepping just enough to not get it, but not put yourself too far away to strike back.



Does the principle also include your opponent standing there like a statue while you hit him six-seven times?


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## BigMotor (Nov 18, 2016)

drop bear said:


> The issue you may get there is if you focus on undefinable results. it removes  the importance of getting the definable parts of your training correct.
> 
> So yes a trained fighter could get jumped and bashed. But how do you train to defend that in a way where the results are predictable?
> 
> Does that mean that punching kicking grappling is less important?



I grapple and kick, I throw punches, but I carry a knife and stick too, just in case. There is no perfect fighting method, but there is a way to handle a violent struggle. And that is to not give up, and to fight hard, until you win. There can be one, or two, or three of them, then what? Grappling won't work on that many, but I can smack some skulls with a stick.

PS: not too many situations are truly predictable. It pays to be cagey, and expect the unexpected.


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## drop bear (Nov 18, 2016)

BigMotor said:


> I grapple and kick, I throw punches, but I carry a knife and stick too, just in case. There is no perfect fighting method, but there is a way to handle a violent struggle; and that is to not give up, and to fight hard, until you win. And I mean that, whether it is one, or two, or three of them.



Willpower and technical skill are two separate skill sets. You don't have to trade one for the other.


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## Hanzou (Nov 18, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In reality, when you make one move, your opponent will respond with 1 move, you then react to his respond.



Exactly. 

No one is suddenly going to stop moving and reacting when you start hitting them.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 18, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Of course, but Boxers still know how to throw them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you a Kenpo karate teacher? I think I am going to obey what my sifu told me about the reasoning behind such drills over some biased bjj fanboy on the internet.

I am not justifying the movie or making excuses for it. I am simply pointing out the fact that people (Jeff speak man and kenpoists) don't fight that way because life is not a movie. The odds of you walking into a club owned by a Korean mafia and beating up 11 guys alone is ********.

(If it were realistic they would have just shot him)

It is a movie designed to entertain you, it is basically a glorified bunkai. Technique drills such as five swords work because you are hitting areas that will cause flinching and basically a small period of being stunned, this gives you enough time for follow up with attacks.

In sparring this is not going to happen because you are not hitting full force, plus you also have protective gear on which will render a lot of these less effective, and no, no sparring ever has one guy being a statue.

That is hyperbole and nothing more. As for the bjj comment or gjj welcome to a hybrid martialart, there is no purity in them as a sense if being one style as the very nature of it is mixed.


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## Hanzou (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Are you a Kenpo karate teacher? I think I am going to obey what my sifu told me about the reasoning behind such drills over some biased bjj fanboy on the internet.



You don't need to believe anything I'm telling you. However, you should really use some common sense. Why even do a drill like that if its not for fighting?

BTW, I don't want to knock Speakman too hard, because he was smart enough to incorporate Bjj into his system, but when I see his guys spar (or fight) I see none of those mechanics on display.



> I am not justifying the movie or making excuses for it. I am simply pointing out the fact that people (Jeff speak man and kenpoists) don't fight that way because life is not a movie. The odds of you walking into a club owned by a Korean mafia and beating up 11 guys alone is ********.
> 
> (If it were realistic they would have just shot him)
> 
> ...



So again, you said it was all just a movie, and then I showed you Speakman's people training just like the movie in their dojo, and now you're backpedalling.

The point is that you never saw Chuck do nonsense like that. He just pummeled people to death.



> That is hyperbole and nothing more. As for the bjj comment or gjj welcome to a hybrid martialart, there is no purity in them as a sense if being one style as the very nature of it is mixed.



Well if you want to try to pull that foolishness, all martial arts are hybrids of something. However in the end;






That's all Bjj buddy. Let me know when you find an example of Liddell doing one of those Speakman drills in the cage.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 18, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Exactly.
> 
> No one is suddenly going to stop moving and reacting when you start hitting them.


Unless you hit them just right (KO), in which case you don't need to keep hitting them.


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## drop bear (Nov 18, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Unless you hit them just right (KO), in which case you don't need to keep hitting them.



But you keep hitting them anyway.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 18, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> You don't need to believe anything I'm telling you. However, you should really use some common sense. Why even do a drill like that if its not for fighting?
> 
> BTW, I don't want to knock Speakman too hard, because he was smart enough to incorporate Bjj into his system, but when I see his guys spar (or fight) I see none of those mechanics on display.
> 
> ...



Fist law. He used it all the time, you won't see those in a cage because they weren't created with a cage in mind. 

"However, you should really use some common sense. Why even do a drill like that if its not for fighting?"

Because they help for fighting. Just like sprinting is training for fighting, or hitting a bag, alone these training methods will not help you fight better, but it is when you combine all of these training methods together will that help you be a better fighter.

Each one is a tool not the end all be all. 

Yeah that was bjj all right. It bored the hell out of me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 18, 2016)

drop bear said:


> But you keep hitting them anyway.


Nope.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 18, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Nope.



I am going to use a really stupid example, but proves my point. I went to a place called "The Grove" on Halloween because my gf and friends wanted to go. Toward the end of the night they forced me into one of the haunted houses (where people jump out and scare you and it is decorated with props and special effects) I didn't want to because I am a big chicken.

Anyway long story short I get forced into going and a clown jumped out of nowhere and tried to grab me. I hate clowns, they creep me out, so I shove one of his arms out of the way and that turned his body to me exposing a nice row of ribs. I uppercut the ribs and then run away screaming as he is doubled over in pain.

Friends laugh and stuff but it wasn't funny, lucky for me I was just told to not go back in there ever again by security and no one pressed any assault charges. The clown was ok as his body suit seemed to cushion most of it.

Anyway the point is that technique has about 4 hits in it and I only needed to use one. The many strikes in these techniques are 'just in case" things where if the person doesn't go down on the first hit or first few hits.


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## drop bear (Nov 18, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Nope.



That was supposed to go with a video of a friend of mine doing pretty much that. His explaination was he knocked the guy out with a kick. And then was just punching him lightly untill the ref pulled him off.

Looking back at the video he has conceded the punches were not all that light.

Instagram video by Torii Kelly • Nov 6, 2016 at 12:01am UTC"instapp%3Atake"%5D&action_ref_map=%5B"ogexp"%5D


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## Buka (Nov 18, 2016)

Aptly titled thread.


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## Steve (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I am going to use a really stupid example, but proves my point. I went to a place called "The Grove" on Halloween because my gf and friends wanted to go. Toward the end of the night they forced me into one of the haunted houses (where people jump out and scare you and it is decorated with props and special effects) I didn't want to because I am a big chicken.
> 
> Anyway long story short I get forced into going and a clown jumped out of nowhere and tried to grab me. I hate clowns, they creep me out, so I shove one of his arms out of the way and that turned his body to me exposing a nice row of ribs. I uppercut the ribs and then run away screaming as he is doubled over in pain.
> 
> ...


If you are punching clowns in a haunted house, you're not learning very good self defense skills and probably need to figure that out.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> If you are punching clowns in a haunted house, you're not learning very good self defense skills and probably need to figure that out.



I was scared Steve. It's not like it was on purpose or something I am proud of.


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## Steve (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I was scared Steve. It's not like it was on purpose or something I am proud of.


That doesn't excuse the behavior.  If you are punching strangers you should probably fix that before you learn how to punch more effectively.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> That doesn't excuse the behavior.  If you are punching strangers you should probably fix that before you learn how to punch more effectively.



Here we go again. I will atone for my sins once again in the peaks of Mt. Asianic name. Brb.


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## Steve (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Here we go again. I will atone for my sins once again in the peaks of Mt. Asianic name. Brb.


I don't know what that means.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> I don't know what that means.



People here often get angry with me for doing stupid things. I was being sarcastic and facetious.


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 18, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I am going to use a really stupid example, but proves my point. I went to a place called "The Grove" on Halloween because my gf and friends wanted to go. Toward the end of the night they forced me into one of the haunted houses (where people jump out and scare you and it is decorated with props and special effects) I didn't want to because I am a big chicken.
> 
> Anyway long story short I get forced into going and a clown jumped out of nowhere and tried to grab me. I hate clowns, they creep me out, so I shove one of his arms out of the way and that turned his body to me exposing a nice row of ribs. I uppercut the ribs and then run away screaming as he is doubled over in pain.
> 
> ...



Exactly well for start yeah that wasnt good you punching a dude doing his job I mean if you had to punch a clown couldn't it be one of those idiots who go round on the streets scaring people lol. Anyway yeah exactly your right. People say all that about kenpo techniques how the guy just stands there etc. but what's the difference with that and hitting the focus mitts. When you focus mitts your partner is just standing there letting you hit them without moving or fighting back no different to the techniques. I'd say the techniques are better because you're actually punching to the targets where as in mitts your not actually hitting in the exact areas. The kenpo techniques will very rarely work exactly as they're being taught I don't think any instructor will claim they all do. I mean they can do but what they're for is to teach a wide range of moves and combination so you can take bits from each and apply it when you need it. That's the 3 phase concept: ideal, what if and fornulation. Personally since I've been doing kenpo again I've been feeling like I've been learning more when it comes to self defence. Kickboxing is great for cardio and strength and speed and the basic punches and kicks but kenpo Is more technical and teaches you what reaction your opponent might have and how to transition from move to thr next.

What you said about only using one strike reminds me of a story I read in lee wedlakes book lessons with ed Parker (which is actually a very interesting book) but he says ed Parker told a story about one of his students who worked as a bouncer came into class all upset because he thought he was getting slow because he tried to use a technique on someone but they'd already hit the floor before he could finish his techie but Parker told him that was a good thing that he didn't need everything that his one shot was good enough to end it but in case it didn't he still had the other moves as back up.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> That doesn't excuse the behavior.  If you are punching strangers you should probably fix that before you learn how to punch more effectively.


Actually, he seems to be doing better about this sort of thing lately. It's a maturation process. We all have different areas where we have to mature as we grow. This is his, and he's working on it..


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 18, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Exactly well for start yeah that wasnt good you punching a dude doing his job I mean if you had to punch a clown couldn't it be one of those idiots who go round on the streets scaring people lol. Anyway yeah exactly your right. People say all that about kenpo techniques how the guy just stands there etc. but what's the difference with that and hitting the focus mitts. When you focus mitts your partner is just standing there letting you hit them without moving or fighting back no different to the techniques. I'd say the techniques are better because you're actually punching to the targets where as in mitts your not actually hitting in the exact areas. The kenpo techniques will very rarely work exactly as they're being taught I don't think any instructor will claim they all do. I mean they can do but what they're for is to teach a wide range of moves and combination so you can take bits from each and apply it when you need it. That's the 3 phase concept: ideal, what if and fornulation. Personally since I've been doing kenpo again I've been feeling like I've been learning more when it comes to self defence. Kickboxing is great for cardio and strength and speed and the basic punches and kicks but kenpo Is more technical and teaches you what reaction your opponent might have and how to transition from move to thr next.
> 
> What you said about only using one strike reminds me of a story I read in lee wedlakes book lessons with ed Parker (which is actually a very interesting book) but he says ed Parker told a story about one of his students who worked as a bouncer came into class all upset because he thought he was getting slow because he tried to use a technique on someone but they'd already hit the floor before he could finish his techie but Parker told him that was a good thing that he didn't need everything that his one shot was good enough to end it but in case it didn't he still had the other moves as back up.


I don't know anything about kempo/kenpo, but I assume the "techniques" are like the "classical techniques" in NGA (my primary art). Our Classical Techniques are for learning combinations of movements in a method that allows beginners to go very slow and to focus on their movements (rather than the "attacker"). The Classical Technique is not always directly applicable to defensive use - we immediately progress into "applications" where we translate that technique into defensive use.


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## Steve (Nov 18, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, he seems to be doing better about this sort of thing lately. It's a maturation process. We all have different areas where we have to mature as we grow. This is his, and he's working on it..


Working in punching people?   Wtf?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 18, 2016)

Steve said:


> Working in punching people?   Wtf?


Working on NOT punching people - on reacting more maturely.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 18, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> No one is suddenly going to stop moving and reacting when you start hitting them.


It's like in some horror movies that when a bad guy chokes on a girl's throat, the girl's hands will drop next to her legs and vibrate her body like a fish. In reality, people just don't react like this.

Many demo assume that your clock can run 6 times faster than your opponent's clock. It doesn't make any sense to me.

In fighting, you attack your opponent's leading leg, when he steps back, you then attack his other leg while taking advantage on his weight shifting. You just don't attack your opponent's leading leg 6 times non-stop before your opponent has chance to step back.


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## Buka (Nov 19, 2016)

Steve said:


> If you are punching clowns in a haunted house, you're not learning very good self defense skills and probably need to figure that out.



Any time I can read something that starts with "If you are punching clowns in a haunted house..." that's a damn good day, right there.

I'm thinking off-Broadway play, even.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 19, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> No one is suddenly going to stop moving and reacting when you start hitting them.


They do when you hit them properly.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 19, 2016)

Steve said:


> If you are punching clowns in a haunted house, you're not learning very good self defense skills and probably need to figure that out.


We would all like to punch clowns but probably shouldn't.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 19, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> People here often get angry with me for doing stupid things.


There's an easy way to fix that.


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## Headhunter (Nov 19, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I am going to use a really stupid example, but proves my point. I went to a place called "The Grove" on Halloween because my gf and friends wanted to go. Toward the end of the night they forced me into one of the haunted houses (where people jump out and scare you and it is decorated with props and special effects) I didn't want to because I am a big chicken.
> 
> Anyway long story short I get forced into going and a clown jumped out of nowhere and tried to grab me. I hate clowns, they creep me out, so I shove one of his arms out of the way and that turned his body to me exposing a nice row of ribs. I uppercut the ribs and then run away screaming as he is doubled over in pain.
> 
> ...



Jesus Christ you really need to learn some damm control kid. You're 100% right that is not funny at all. That's assault what you did there'd be 0 justification for self defence you went into a haunted house knowing what there'd be and when 1 came at you doing his job you punched him. You could've stopped at just moving his arm away there was 0 need to hit him. You're very lucky if that was I'd have called the police and had you charged with assault hurt or not. I honestly think a bit of time inside would do you good to shake you out of doing stupid things like that. All the fights you've been in its a miracle you haven't done time. You're what 27? And reacting like that to an actor playing a part in a haunted house that's something you'd see a 10 year old do getting scared of a character at Disney land so they kick them in the shins. So you punched him in the ribs imagine you'd broken his ribs you're a big guy who trains it's not unrealistic that guy can't work for a while so he sues you for damages and you have to pay him compensation. Or worse he keeps working with a broken rib and the part of the bone that's broken punctures his lung the guy dies you're on a murder or manslaughter charge and why? Because you got scared.


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## Headhunter (Nov 19, 2016)

Steve said:


> That doesn't excuse the behavior.  If you are punching strangers you should probably fix that before you learn how to punch more effectively.


Exactly otherwise it's very dangerous I hate when people say that oh I didn't do it on purpose so what you accidentally threw a punch. Yeah that happens to me all the time I'm chatting to my friend at the bar I go to reach for my wallet to buy a drink and bam my friends on the floor with a broken nose


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## Headhunter (Nov 19, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Here we go again. I will atone for my sins once again in the peaks of Mt. Asianic name. Brb.


That really shows you're immaturity. Maybe listen to what people are saying then dumb stuff like this will stop happening


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## JP3 (Nov 19, 2016)

I'm not trying to derail this... but I've got a question for Kickboxer101....

When you train... why isn't your partner, who is holding the focus mitts, NOT moving?  Didn't it occur to you guys that that person can move as well?  The only reason for the mitts is so that you can wail away and your partner isn't at (much) risk of being hurt.

Next time you do mitt-work,, ask your partner to circle, bob & weave, move about as if they were trying to get into position to bash you back. indeed, at times, have them shoot out a jab/cross/hook from time to time to make sure you keep your movement tactics honest. It isn't good to just learn "I come in and smack 'em and they fall down."  I mean, it's great if you get that result when you need it, sure, but it's rare.


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## drop bear (Nov 19, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> People here often get angry with me for doing stupid things. I was being sarcastic and facetious.








I fully endorse being stupid.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 19, 2016)

Headhunter said:


> Jesus Christ you really need to learn some damm control kid. You're 100% right that is not funny at all. That's assault what you did there'd be 0 justification for self defence you went into a haunted house knowing what there'd be and when 1 came at you doing his job you punched him. You could've stopped at just moving his arm away there was 0 need to hit him. You're very lucky if that was I'd have called the police and had you charged with assault hurt or not. I honestly think a bit of time inside would do you good to shake you out of doing stupid things like that. All the fights you've been in its a miracle you haven't done time. You're what 27? And reacting like that to an actor playing a part in a haunted house that's something you'd see a 10 year old do getting scared of a character at Disney land so they kick them in the shins. So you punched him in the ribs imagine you'd broken his ribs you're a big guy who trains it's not unrealistic that guy can't work for a while so he sues you for damages and you have to pay him compensation. Or worse he keeps working with a broken rib and the part of the bone that's broken punctures his lung the guy dies you're on a murder or manslaughter charge and why? Because you got scared.



I'm only 5'9 and 210, I'm not that big, but yeah I get your point. The guy was wearing a body suit and much of it was absorbed by that, I apologized and he said he was ok, later on security spoke with me along with him and told me to just not go back inside those. I again said sorry and they were just laughing it off. 

I agree with you and see your point and know it was wrong, but what am I supposed to do now? If you expect to flog myself or something (not being literal) then that is not going to happen. I don't really know what more you expect me to do about it other than learn from it and move on.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 19, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I fully endorse being stupid.



Adventure Time is the tits.


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## stonewall1350 (Nov 24, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> While that's a great bumper sticker, the truth is quite a bit more complex. There is evidence that supports that people coming out of style A are better fighters on average than people coming out of style B. This is mainly due to training methodology and other practices.
> 
> Personally, I'd say that sport MAs have a pretty large advantage over traditional MAs.



That is categorically not true. If your argument is that the people coming out of sport arts have more experience against someone else that is a point I would be willing to acknowledge because of experience against an opponent. 

But...sports have rules. There are no weapons. It is 1 on 1. And the ground? The ground is typically hard. Not soft. And if you take that sport like MMA out into the street...you might be delivering accurate punches or grappling, but the other guy very easily could be pulling a gun/knife/stick/brick/soup can and delivering strikes. He also may be a hell of a lot tougher and meaner. And he may not fee too bad about kicking you in the crotch or throat punching you.

And I'm primarily a sport martial artist. But I carry a gun. 

Now...if you are talking about that art that is all "pressure points" and magic punches (what is it? Systema?)...then I agree lol. But other arts like Kung Fu...are actually surpassingly effective and brutal....if applied correctly. I love watching the Kung Fu guys spar at my gym. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drop bear (Nov 24, 2016)

stonewall1350 said:


> That is categorically not true. If your argument is that the people coming out of sport arts have more experience against someone else that is a point I would be willing to acknowledge because of experience against an opponent.
> 
> But...sports have rules. There are no weapons. It is 1 on 1. And the ground? The ground is typically hard. Not soft. And if you take that sport like MMA out into the street...you might be delivering accurate punches or grappling, but the other guy very easily could be pulling a gun/knife/stick/brick/soup can and delivering strikes. He also may be a hell of a lot tougher and meaner. And he may not fee too bad about kicking you in the crotch or throat punching you.
> 
> ...



Not really.

The idea put forward that if you train without rules you will have a better ability to deal with a gun/knife/stick doesn't really work. 

Mostly because people dont train without rules.  

Partly because guns knives sticks are such an advantage that It may not matter what you train. 

And lastly if you are limited to what you can train how real you can train and how much one person is reasonably expected to be handle.

The you should at least get that part right.


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## oaktree (Nov 24, 2016)

It has gone on for decades which style is the best and the answer is depends on what. Kenjutsu without a sword vs BJJ or BJJ vs a kendo match. There is no one style that is effective in dealing with street self defense what makes effective street self defense effective is knowing how things are done on the street and how to react to that type of violence. 

I think the big road block in training is the rules or lack of rules in trying to get as close to realism as we can in training.
Obviously we can not critically hurt or kill each other so we have to come to some sort of safe way to train as close as we can,
so for me my guidance standard will be someone who has been in life or death situations. 

When you have a gun pressed against your head the feeling you get, the surreal knot in your stomach it is something that can not be duplicated in the dojo or any cage fight.  However, being conditioned through the scenario could give you that split second of unconscious decision making to act, When I had a gun placed against my head from someone high on drugs two things stuck in my head, one was keep talking, off the line of fire. 

It has nothing to do with styles and really training is only a percent because what will make the difference is the mindset.
 Have a safe and happy thanksgiving be thankful for the ones you are with.


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## Zephyor (Nov 30, 2016)

there is no best style, but there is best style for one specific person. The best style for someone is the style that the person will be able to enjoy and commit to


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 30, 2016)

Zephyor said:


> there is no best style, but there is best style for one specific person. The best style for someone is the style that the person will be able to enjoy and commit to


I'll go another step into that and say it's not so much the style that fits the person, as the training environment. There are instructors under whom I don't think I'd have kept my interest in NGA, for instance. And there are instructors under whom I'm fairly sure I'd have more interest in almost any art than under another instructor. And I don't think it's a single fit - one "best" - but a range of fits. Some are better fits for a given individual than others, and if we find something that fits well enough, it quickly becomes a favorite.


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