# Historical question and/or Statement



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 18, 2013)

So I&#8217;ve been keeping my opinions to myself for a while. I&#8217;ve seen things posted on the net and I&#8217;ve let them slide. I&#8217;ve been doing a lot of work in the FMA community to try to bring people together and keep the peace. With that said, sometimes I feel the need to speak my mind and question the accuracy of statements and claims. I&#8217;ve recently seen this posted on the net:



> &#8220;GM Atillo is among the last of the people who knew the Saavedra's, Lorenzo and Doring, personally. His art is the closest thing that we have to the original Saavedra Eskrima System, which is also known more popularly as Balintawak Eskrima&#8220;


I have two questions or issues with this post.

1. According to GM Atillo&#8217;s website, he was born in 1938. That means he was 4 years old when the Japanese invaded the Philippines. I don&#8217;t know how much training he could have done with the Saavedra&#8217;s at that age. And I doubt that GM Atillo ever trained with the Saavedras since they both died during WWII.

2. Saavedra Eskrima is not Balintawak, its Saavedra Eskrima. Anciong Bacon modified what he was taught and it evolved into was is now known as Balintawak. Calling it Saavedra&#8217;s Balintawak is saying Yip Man&#8217;s Jeet Kune Do.

Now I want to make something very clear. I&#8217;m not attacking Atillo. My problem is with the people who may be misinterpreting what he may be saying. Having trained with many different Asian instructors who speak English as a second language, I can see how someone can misunderstand what they are being told. My problem is with people who choose to misinterpret things with the intent of rewriting history. 

Now before everyone jumps all over me saying I don&#8217;t know what I&#8217;m talking about, let say one thing. I started my Balintawak training in 2000 as a private student of the late GM Ted Buot. Manong Ted was the leading authority on GM Bacon&#8217;s original ungrouped method of Balintawak. Manong Ted was the only person to teach in the Balintawak club when GM Anciong wasn&#8217;t there.


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## Tgace (Jul 18, 2013)

Did you take it up with the writer of the blog? A google of that quote takes you directly here:

http://seasian-martialarts.blogspot.com/2013/07/atillo-balintawak-successors-my-comments.html

You can comment right on it. Who are you trying to talk to about it here? All that crew is long gone and I'm not getting into the middle of this stuff anymore.


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## DrBarber (Jul 21, 2013)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> So I&#8217;ve been keeping my opinions to myself for a while. I&#8217;ve seen things posted on the net and I&#8217;ve let them slide. I&#8217;ve been doing a lot of work in the FMA community to try to bring people together and keep the peace. With that said, sometimes I feel the need to speak my mind and question the accuracy of statements and claims. I&#8217;ve recently seen this posted on the net:
> 
> &#8220;GM Atillo is among the last of the people who knew the Saavedra's, Lorenzo and Doring, personally. His art is the closest thing that we have to the original Saavedra Eskrima System, which is also known more popularly as Balintawak Eskrima&#8220;
> 
> ...



Hello Datu Hartman,

I want to answer your two questions since I am the person that you are quoting and quite came from my post on the SE Asian Blog <http://seasian-martialarts.blogspot.com>
where I was commenting on the list of newly named Masters, Disciples and Successors-Disciples, that was announced on July 10, 2013 on GM Crispulo Atillo's FB site.  I now that you has a much better grasp of the English language than your comments above might suggest.  You did quote me correctly.  I did write that:

            &#8220;GM Atillo is among the last of the people who knew the Saavedra's, Lorenzo and Doring, personally. 
             His art is the closest thing that we have to the original Saavedra Eskrima System, which is also known more popularly as Balintawak Eskrima&#8220;

I stand by that statement as written and now repeated here.  You wrote and I quote:  "And I doubt that GM Atillo ever trained with the Saavedras since they both died during WWII."  I wrote that he *"knew*_"_ the Saavedras, *not that he had trained* with or was trained by either of them.  From the time that I first met GM Atillo in 2007, to this day,
he has NEVER told me that he trained with either Lorenzo or Doring Saavedra.  He has consistently stated that his father GM Vincente Atillo was his teacher and his father taught him the Saavedra System of Eskrima.  That interpretation was and still is your invention, not mine nor GM Atillo's.

Back in day, GM Atillo gave an interview to Dr. Ned Napangue, for publication in the Filipino Martial Arts Magazine, Vol.2, NO. 5 (2000)  in which he stated: 

"My father Grandmaster Vincente Atillo taught me what he learned from Grandmaster Teodoro Saavedra.  I was exposed to stick fighting as early as 6 years old.  I had seen adepts like Insong Saavedra, Doring Saavedra, Ansiong Bacon, my father Vincente, Delfin Lopez, practice eskrima.  I doubt if my comtemporaries of the Balintawak clan ever witnessed how these men played." (page 13, "Atillo Eskrima").  In the 7 years between that interview and my meeting him for the first time, GM Atillo has never to my knowledge changed with regard to who taught him eskrima.  I was correct in stating that he "knew" the Saavedras.  Furthermore, GM Atillo stated in the same interview that his father and Doring Saavedra "...were very close friends since their youth.  My grandfather was Grandmaster Ansiong Bacon's  ninong (Godfather).  These people used to practice in our backyard in Ibabano, Mambaling, Cebu City." (page 14). 

That should clear up the matter of who first taught GM Atillo, when and at what age.  Furthermore, if you want to raise this age question regarding GM Atillo, shouldn't you also be concerned about the age at which our former GM and teacher, Professor Remy Presas began his arnis training, because his father Jose Presas was involved in training his fellow Filipinos to fight against the Japanese during WWII.  If my memory is still functional, Professor, began his training at the age of 6, under his grandfather, Leon Presas.
Please correct me about that if I have it wrong!

You have stated the following:

"2. Saavedra Eskrima is not Balintawak, its Saavedra Eskrima. Anciong Bacon modified what he was taught and it evolved into was is now known as Balintawak. Calling it Saavedra&#8217;s Balintawak is saying Yip Man&#8217;s Jeet Kune Do."

There is an element of truth in your statement, however, your approach is too simplistic and very self serving.  Since GM Ansiong Bacon studied under GGM Lorenzo Saavedra and his nephew Teodoro "Doring" Saavedra, along with Vincente Atillo, Timeteo Marranga and Delfin Lopez, it would seem quite logical and highly probable that what GM Bacon was teacher at a later point in time was in reality a version of Saavedra Eskrima!  It is commonly believe that after GM Bacon and others broke away from the Doce Pares Club, the met for practice sessions at Eduardo Baculi's shop located on Balintawak Street near P. Lopez Street in Cebu City.  (page 15).  According to a number of different sources
the new club was named after the street on which their practice hall was located and the club members included Bacon, V. Atillo, Lopez and Baculi  among others who had trained under the Saavedras.  So my question to you is what other source, system or style did GM Bacon have as the basis for his 'new' Balintawak  system if it was not what he had been taught by the Saavdras'?  You also might want to keep in mind that Venancio Bacon was a nephew of Lorenzo Saavedra and cousin of Teodoro Saavedra. (page 13).


Please be very explicit and detailed in your assessment as to how and why Saavedra Eskrima is not the root art of Balintawak and exactly how GM Atillo's art is different from what is commonly known in modern times/these days as Balintawak.  I'm asking this question because you have seem to be setting yourself up as an expert on Balintawak because as you wrote:

"Now before everyone jumps all over me saying I don&#8217;t know what I&#8217;m talking about, let say one thing. I started my Balintawak training in 2000 as a private student of the late GM Ted Buot."

I'm taking the position that you have some information that can help us all.  You did come to the "balinatwak party" a bit later than my students and I.  Richard Curren, Paul Martin, Tom Verga and myself began exploring Balintawak Arnis back in 1989, when I obtained a video (VHS) tape by Master Henry Jayme, entitled "Arnis: The Balintawak System".  He was teaching the Teofilo Velez version of Balintawak.  The tape was recorded in Australia with Mr. John Russell as the assistant/uke.  A few years later I have an extensive dialogue with Guro Russell and learned about the 6 subsets of Balintawak, including the Atillo Eskrima System of Balintawak.  I believe that Mr. Russell has written a book on the Velez version of Balintawak that was published in the late 1990s.  Subsequent to the Jayme tape we were able to find out about Sam Buot, Peter Ball, Dom Lopez, 
Michael Zimmer, Bobby Taboada and Crispulo Atillo.  We also read a lot of posts and emails that detailed the "politics of Balintawak".  Your statement about GM Ted Buot is a portion of that political sie of Balintawak that does not interest me at all, so please avoid that stuff in your reply.

I'm also going to remind you that between 1994 and 2001, when I was hosting GM Bobby Taboada for 4 summer camps and 5 seminars, that neither you nor nor any of your associates attended those events.  I understand conflicting summer camp schedules to a degree but not attending any events is quite a bit to understand since Balintawak is one of the root systems of Modern Arnis under the late Professor Remy Presas.  

I believe that I have addressed the 2 issues that you raised and in some detail.  I would truly appreciate a similar type of objective  reply devoid of speculations and internal system politics that never really address serious issues.

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed. D.
Grand Master, Datu, Senior Master ad Principal Teacher,
Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis Asociates


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 21, 2013)

DrBarber said:


> Hello Datu Hartman,
> 
> I want to answer your two questions since I am the person that you are quoting and quite came from my post on the SE Asian Blog <http://seasian-martialarts.blogspot.com>
> where I was commenting on the list of newly named Masters, Disciples and Successors-Disciples, that was announced on July 10, 2013 on GM Crispulo Atillo's FB site.  I now that you has a much better grasp of the English language than your comments above might suggest.  You did quote me correctly.  I did write that:
> ...




Dr Barber,

I take exception to your Politics comments. You say nothing without politics and you play games three levels deep or at least that is what you told me in person. 


I also know form the past that when things look a little tough for you , you want to take it private. I prefer not to do that anymore with you. 



I will review this tomorrow when I have some time and I will respond, with the data and facts that I have been told.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 21, 2013)

DrBarber said:


> I stand by that statement as written and now repeated here.  You wrote and I quote:  "And I doubt that GM Atillo ever trained with the Saavedras since they both died during WWII."  I wrote that he *"knew*_"_ the Saavedras, *not that he had trained* with or was trained by either of them.  From the time that I first met GM Atillo in 2007, to this day,
> he has NEVER told me that he trained with either Lorenzo or Doring Saavedra.  He has consistently stated that his father GM Vincente Atillo was his teacher and his father taught him the Saavedra System of Eskrima.  That interpretation was and still is your invention, not mine nor GM Atillo's.



Then why bother saying anything at all? You're giving people the allusion of connectivity.


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## Rocky (Jul 21, 2013)

*Hello Doc, its Rocky I got few things I&#8217;d like to address:*

Hello Datu Hartman,

I want to answer your two questions since I am the person that you are quotingand quite came from my post on the SE Asian Blog <http://seasian-martialarts.blogspot.com>
where I was commenting on the list of newly named Masters, Disciples andSuccessors-Disciples, that was announced on July 10, 2013 on GM CrispuloAtillo's FB site. I now that you has a much better grasp of the Englishlanguage than your comments above might suggest. You did quote me correctly. Idid write that:

&#8220;GM Atillo is among the last of the people who knew the Saavedra's, Lorenzo andDoring, personally. 
His art is the closest thing that we have to the original Saavedra EskrimaSystem, which is also known more popularly as Balintawak Eskrima&#8220;
*His art may be close to Saavedras not sure I would ask Tom Bisio since hepretty much inherited San Maguels from Momoy Cannete. How ever how can you sayits Balintawak. Anciong was taught completely different then the Cannetes eventhough they all had the same instructor, now you know damn well this happensall the time you don&#8217;t have to look any further than me, you know that Remytaught me completely different then everyone else. Anciong was in the samesituation. After the brothers were murdered in WWII the Cannetes took over theyinvited Anciong to teach with them it was the Cannetes who changed the name toDoce Paris talk to GM Cocoys people he was just a kid but many years ago hiscamp confirmed this with me his older brothers refered to it as Doce Pares then Momoy did hid own thing calling it Sam Miguel and most people believe HE kept it close to what the Saavedras were doing.. That&#8217;s why Anciongs lineage of Balintawak is andhas always been on good grounds with Doce Pares. 
*

Back in day, GM Atillo gave an interview to Dr. Ned Napangue, for publicationin the Filipino Martial Arts Magazine,Vol.2, NO. 5 (2000) in which he stated: 
*2000 is now back in the Day with Balintawak ?*


"My father Grandmaster Vincente Atillo taught me what he learned fromGrandmaster Teodoro Saavedra. I was exposed to stick fighting as early as 6years old. I had seen adepts like Insong Saavedra, Doring Saavedra, AnsiongBacon, my father Vincente, Delfin Lopez, practice eskrima. I doubt if mycomtemporaries of the Balintawak clan ever witnessed how these menplayed." (page 13, "Atillo Eskrima"). In the 7 years between thatinterview and my meeting him for the first time, GM Atillo has never to myknowledge changed with regard to who taught him eskrima. I was correct instating that he "knew" the Saavedras. Furthermore, GM Atillo statedin the same interview that his father and Doring Saavedra "...were veryclose friends since their youth. My grandfather was Grandmaster Ansiong Bacon'sninong (Godfather). These people used to practice in our backyard in Ibabano,Mambaling, Cebu City." (page 14). 

You have stated the following:

"2. SaavedraEskrima is not Balintawak, its Saavedra Eskrima. Anciong Bacon modified what hewas taught and it evolved into was is now known as Balintawak. Calling itSaavedra&#8217;s Balintawak is saying Yip Man&#8217;s JeetKune Do."

There is an element of truth in your statement, however, your approach is toosimplistic and very self serving. Since GM Ansiong Bacon studied under GGMLorenzo Saavedra and his nephew Teodoro "Doring" Saavedra, along withVincente Atillo, Timeteo Marranga and Delfin Lopez, it would seem quite logicaland highly probable that what GM Bacon was teacher at a later point in time wasin reality a version of Saavedra Eskrima! 
*NO NO NO Anciong was always taught differently the Saavedras took hisdagger away we was always taught different just as I was taught different byRemy. He obviously continued to grow after he left but he was already acompletely different fighter then his contemporaries.*




It is commonly believe that after GM Bacon and othersbroke away from the Doce Pares Club, the met for practice sessions at EduardoBaculi's shop located on Balintawak Street near P. Lopez Street in Cebu City.(page 15). According to a number of different sources
the new club was named after the street on which their practice hall waslocated and the club members included Bacon, V. Atillo, Lopez and Baculi amongothers who had trained under the Saavedras. So my question to you is what othersource, system or style did GM Bacon have as the basis for his 'new' Balintawaksystem if it was not what he had been taught by the Saavdras'?
*Now you are playing word games Doc&#8230;..You wanna call Anciongs BalintawakSaavedra Balintawak because he was taought by the Saavedras albeit taught differently&#8230;..wellhell then the Saavedras didn&#8217;t do Saavedra style cause they learned fromsomeone else.*



 You also mightwant to keep in mind that Venancio Bacon was a nephew of Lorenzo Saavedra andcousin of Teodoro Saavedra. (page 13). 
*Even more reason why they may of taught him differently because ofthatrelationship.*


Please be very explicit and detailed in your assessment as to how and whySaavedra Eskrima is not the root art of Balintawak and exactly how GM Atillo'sart is different from what is commonly known in modern times/these days asBalintawak. I'm asking this question because you have seem to be settingyourself up as an expert on Balintawak because as you wrote:
*Teachings from the Saavedras are at the root of Balintawak but, those teachings were vastly different then what they normally taught to others, so while the teachings came from Saavedras they were not what Savvedras referred to as their mainstream art..The Model T may be one of the first Ford cars so technically one could say all Fords have their roots in the Model T but a Mustang is no Model T.

* theposition that you have some information that can help us all. You did come tothe "balinatwak party" a bit later than my students and I. RichardCurren, Paul Martin, Tom Verga and myself began exploring Balintawak Arnis backin 1989, when I obtained a video (VHS) tape by Master Henry Jayme, entitled"Arnis: The Balintawak System". He was teaching the Teofilo Velezversion of Balintawak.
*Kind of thought I had introduced the good folks to Balintawak back in 1986when I was conducting seminars for John Bryant and even earlier what I startedteaching Don Zanghi Balintawak back in 1984 hhhhhmmmm I bought a farm a fewyears ago, unfortunately for some I didn&#8217;t by THE FARM I bought A FARM so Imstill here and still a thorn in some sides!*

 The tape wasrecorded in Australia with Mr. John Russell as the assistant/uke. A few yearslater I have an extensive dialogue with Guro Russell and learned about the 6subsets of Balintawak, including the Atillo Eskrima System of Balintawak. Ibelieve that Mr. Russell has written a book on the Velez version of Balintawakthat was published in the late 1990s. Subsequent to the Jayme tape we were ableto find out about Sam Buot, Peter Ball, Dom Lopez, 
Michael Zimmer, Bobby Taboada and Crispulo Atillo. We also read a lot of postsand emails that detailed the "politics of Balintawak".
*I consider Mike Zimmerman a friend and his Instructor Dom Lopez was one ofTddy Buots students. Mike came to Michigan to cross sticks with me, he wasquite surprise at the differences between us I used on Anciongs and Tedsversion when playing he then went to Teds house to pay his respects and tellTed of GM Lopezs joy to find out that Ted was teaching int the U.S the same wayhe AND ONLY HE and Anciong taught back in the P.I.*


 Your statementabout GM Ted Buot is a portion of that political sie of Balintawak that doesnot interest me at all, so please avoid that stuff in your reply.

*I take real offense to that #@** statement TED BUOT is ANCIONG BACONSBALINTAWAK GM Tobabada verifies this GM Presas and GM Lopez, Sam Buot does too&#8230;.
*
I'm also going to remind you that between 1994 and 2001, when I was hosting GMBobby Taboada for 4 summer camps and 5 seminars, that neither you nor nor anyof your associates attended those events. I understand conflicting summer campschedules to a degree but not attending any events is quite a bit to understandsince Balintawak is one of the root systems of Modern Arnis under the lateProfessor Remy Presas. 
* Well I was trying to get all youModern Arnis guys to get involved with Balintawak back in the mid 1980s Ishowed you Abecidario and some basic fundamentals so why didn&#8217;t you takeadvantage of what was offered.*

I believe that I have addressed the 2 issues that you raised and in somedetail. I would truly appreciate a similar type of objective reply devoid ofspeculations and internal system politics that never really address seriousissues.

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed. D.
Grand Master, Datu, Senior Master ad Principal Teacher,
Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis Asociates
*I believe GM Atillia to probably be one hell of a Modified Balintawak guyand deserving of respect I just think for some reason history is beingre-written I realize this is America and you being a College Professor knowmore then anyone how often history in this county is re-written, I just wish itcould leave Balintawak untouched.*

*Its getting late Doc Im not trying to get into more of the Buffalo Bulljust speaking my peace.*
*Good to see you still swinging keep it up and take care. Glad you got moreinvolved in Balintawak Origingal Modified Grouped or other there are somephenomenal guys to learn from.*
*Take care*
*Rocky Pasiwk*
*Bacon/Buot&#8217;s Original Balintawak*


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## DrBarber (Jul 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> *I believe GM Atillia to probably be one hell of a Modified Balintawak guyand deserving of respect I just think for some reason history is beingre-written I realize this is America and you being a College Professor knowmore then anyone how often history in this county is re-written, I just wish itcould leave Balintawak untouched.*
> 
> *Its getting late Doc Im not trying to get into more of the Buffalo Bulljust speaking my peace.*
> *Good to see you still swinging keep it up and take care. Glad you got moreinvolved in Balintawak Origingal Modified Grouped or other there are somephenomenal guys to learn from.*
> ...



Hello Rocky,

Nice hearing from you.  I'm not going to say a whole lot more on this topic.  A lot of people have their minds already made up and are willing to even consider any alternatives.  I agree that people can and do re-write history, but if one does some good research and applies good logical analysis they can often separate the basics of truth from the most of the self-serving re-writes.  I will say this about our relationship, we have always been candid with one another and where we have differences they are out in the open and this is a place where we have differences.
I'm OK with that and life goes on.

I am not a balintawak person.  I do not have a particular style or system to champion or defend.  I left all of that stuff to form my my own association and like it that way.  I have students who are using aspects of the Taboada-Velez style, a couple of more who are more adapt with
the Manong Ted style as advocated through your seminars in Buffalo in the 1990's and David Hatch's videos and I have a couple more people 
who are using the Atillo approach.  Personally I see them all as good, useful and helpful.

I merely corrected Datu Hartman's statement and implication that I did not understand what GM Atillo was saying about who his eskrima instructor was because English is a 2nd language for him.  I understood perfectly well what he was saying and I quoted from the FMAM as an added example of him declaring that his father was his eskrima instructor.  There is also very little doubt that the Saavadras trained GM Bacon, hence the connection to the Saavedras and balintawak is real.  Until someone can show me a reasonable alternative with some documentation, I will continue to see Balintawak under GM Bacon as rooted in Saavdera Eskrima.


The other thing not talked about in this thread, but which may very well be the reason Datu Hartman posted my comment about GM Atillo knowing the Saavdras and taking it out of context is that GM Atillo posted a listing of disciples and successors.  The only thing that list does in my mind is tell us who the GM believes is qualified to carry on his version Balintawak-Saavedra Eskrima in the future.  As I see it his list is simply his list and it does not effect any other group of people.  

People may not want to acknowledge or accept that fact that GM Atillo has a connection to Balinatawak, and that Balintawak has a connection to the Saavedras but that is the truth.  Are there different variations on the Balintawak scheme?  Of course there are and I am not saying that any one of them is better than any other.  I'll leave that to others.  I've seen enough in videos, literature and in person to know that the disagreements will continue over time.  That is the nature of the beast and it won't change no matter what is written here.  My students and I have gleaned the information, practiced some of the ideas, adapted things to fit ourselves, without everyone being compelled to follow one method and that won't change either.  As for the rest of the stuff - politics - hype - self serving agendas, that is old hat stuff and will also continue.

So we had a couple of disagreements, OK?  Let's be happy and move on.

I am writing this with great respect for you as my senior in Modren Arnis,


Sincerely,


Jerome Barber, Ed. D.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 22, 2013)

I have only practiced Balintawak a little bit but It seems to me from an outsider's point of view that GM Atillo should have named his system some thing else.  When people think of Balintawak they think of GM Bacon as the founder.  By teaching Atillo Balintawak it kind of muddles the water and creates a situation that did not have to be created.  I know others have done the same putting their name to Balintawak but..... they have a connection back to Anciong Bacon and that in my mind seems okay.  However to call some thing Balintawak without a deep connection to GM Bacon seems wrong or maybe coat tail riding.  If he did train with GM Bacon then personally I would not have a problem with him using the name.  However, if I am correct that was not the case.  Right?  I am sure that GM Atillo is a very good martial practitioner and also is a good teacher.  I am also sure that practitioners under him are also hard working martial practitioner's too.  All are deserving of respect.  I just think the naming of his system might have been thought out a bit better.  Just my point of view on the matter.


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

DrBarber said:


> Hello Rocky,
> 
> Nice hearing from you.  I'm not going to say a whole lot more on this topic.  A lot of people have their minds already made up and are willing to even consider any alternatives.  I agree that people can and do re-write history, but if one does some good research and applies good logical analysis they can often separate the basics of truth from the most of the self-serving re-writes.  I will say this about our relationship, we have always been candid with one another and where we have differences they are out in the open and this is a place where we have differences.
> I'm OK with that and life goes on.
> ...



Doc I agree with what you posted here BUT I did go out to GM Atillios site and his sit does make it sound as if the Atillios and Delphane lopez founded the system with Anciong and by just about every other GM out there this just is not true. I also question the fight withTed because it sounds exactically like the fight between Remy and Boboy in which Remy split his ear open and Delphane threatened to kick Remys *** when Anciong and others told Delphane that Remy was younger and an up and coming damn good fighter and they didn't think he could beat Remy Delphane said if he couldn't beat him with a stick he'd use his 45cal at that point Remy left Cebu. Why would question Delphane setting Ted up in anyway because as his Uncle he was very protective of Ted.

Now I personally have never met anyone that knows Balintawak that doesn't claim that Anciong was trained by the Saavedras however he was trained different and he alone according to just about everyone including the Cannetes moved to Cebu and named his art Balintawak which is completely different then the openly taught art at the Saavedras club, often referred to as San Meguel and later Doce Pares. I think the proper way to say it is Balintawak has its roots in the personal teaching of Lorenzo Saavedra. If Anciong choose to call it Saavedra Balintawak that would be fine because he created Balintawk, Atillia didn't, now if Atillios says his art is Saavedras and Balintawak that's fine, But Anciong's is just plain Balintawak the art his formed from the training he received from Saavedra. But Anciong continued to evolve too that's why Ted used Abecedario as his fundamentals when Remy was training with Anciong, Anciong had not developed Abecedario yet. In fact I taught Remy Abecedario and he changed it so he could teach it in Seminars but he called it Vecedario, of course we were not talking sooooooo......I don't know Atillio I do know Ted was not happy with many of the  claims.

Maybe Tim is right maybe its a language thing!

Oh I must correct myself Tom Bisio was one of Momoy Cannetes top guys but Momoy may have left his art to his own son. Anyone interested should learn San Miguel it looks like a very in depth and good art also Doce Pares is well worth learning.

Again its good to see you still swinging.

Its kind of funny being called your senior.........makes me sound like the old timer dude when you were actually witness to Magellans defeat, weren't you?




Rocky
Bacon/Buot's Original Balintawak


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

Another thing that you touched on Doc was that GM Atillia announce some of his successors. I think that is great and smart it keeps things straight for the future generations kudos to him.

Rocky


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## DrBarber (Jul 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Doc I agree with what you posted here BUT I did go out to GM Atillios site and his sit does make it sound as if the Atillios and Delphane lopez founded the system with Anciong and by just about every other GM out there this just is not true. I also question the fight withTed because it sounds exactically like the fight between Remy and Boboy in which Remy split his ear open and Delphane threatened to kick Remys *** when Anciong and others told Delphane that Remy was younger and an up and coming damn good fighter and they didn't think he could beat Remy Delphane said if he couldn't beat him with a stick he'd use his 45cal at that point Remy left Cebu. Why would question Delphane setting Ted up in anyway because as his Uncle he was very protective of Ted.
> 
> Now I personally have never met anyone that knows Balintawak that doesn't claim that Anciong was trained by the Saavedras however he was trained different and he alone according to just about everyone including the Cannetes moved to Cebu and named his art Balintawak which is completely different then the openly taught art at the Saavedras club, often referred to as San Meguel and later Doce Pares. I think the proper way to say it is Balintawak has its roots in the personal teaching of Lorenzo Saavedra. If Anciong choose to call it Saavedra Balintawak that would be fine because he created Balintawk, Atillia didn't, now if Atillios says his art is Saavedras and Balintawak that's fine, But Anciong's is just plain Balintawak the art his formed from the training he received from Saavedra. But Anciong continued to evolve too that's why Ted used Abecedario as his fundamentals when Remy was training with Anciong, Anciong had not developed Abecedario yet. In fact I taught Remy Abecedario and he changed it so he could teach it in Seminars but he called it Vecedario, of course we were not talking sooooooo......I don't know Atillio I do know Ted was not happy with many of the claims.
> 
> ...



Damn it, Rocky, I asked you not to let that Magellan thing out of the bag! Now some folks are going to be after me to explain the whole Spanish American War thing and the Buffalo Soldier connection to Filipino Boxing and the Mangyan Bolo fighting relationship to the Presas Jungle Bolo and 
Aieta cultural ties to buno and dumog, which I would really prefer to keep on the down low :wink2:

Let's dialogue privately because we can do it so much more quietly and respectfully between ourselves. I'm still at _<email address redacted per 1.5 - jks9199>_
BTW, check out the Balintawak lineage chart at the back of the book "Cebuano Eskrima" and the sections on the Labong Fencing Club, Doce Pares Club, Balintawak Self Defense Club and Original Balintawak Club. The book was written by Dr. Ned Nepangue and another Filipino fellow, whose name escapes my at the moment. They are also involved in the FMA and the book is written from a Filipino perspective, not an American one.
I'll give you all the details on title, publisher and date in a couple of days when my associate returns the book. I understand that there are some areas where we will disagree, but that's life and it makes for more interesting discussions anyways in my opinion.

Thanks for joining the thread; and you are still my Modern Arnis, senior... 

Respectfully,

Jerome


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## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2013)

Folks, MartialTalk is a discussion forum. While there are certainly things that should be handled privately between members, we discourage taking discussions "behind closed doors" unless there's a real reason. Doing so prevents others from learning, and kind of defeats the purpose of a discussion forum. I'm pretty sure that there's room to discuss things publicly and still manage to be respectful. We also discourage posting personal contact info like email addresses for member safety.


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## DrBarber (Jul 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Another thing that you touched on Doc was that GM Atillia announce some of his successors. I think that is great and smart it keeps things straight for the future generations kudos to him.
> 
> Rocky



Hello Rocky,

I completely agree with you on that point.  We've seen the mess that usually follows the death of a GM.  By making it publicly known 
in advance, there will be little to no need for bickering after GM Atillo leaves the scene.  Better yet, in my opinion, by naming a number 
of people as his successors, he has virtually eliminated the "rightful successor" argument for everyone.  All of the people named as his
successors are of equal status in my reading of the document.  Maybe some other system GMs will take note of this and follow the 
Atillo method of naming successors.  We'll have to wait and see. 

Sincerely,

Jerome


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## DrBarber (Jul 24, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Folks, MartialTalk is a discussion forum. While there are certainly things that should be handled privately between members, we discourage taking discussions "behind closed doors" unless there's a real reason. Doing so prevents others from learning, and kind of defeats the purpose of a discussion forum. I'm pretty sure that there's room to discuss things publicly and still manage to be respectful. We also discourage posting personal contact info like email addresses for member safety.



There are a number of good reasons why I would discuss some things with my friend, Rocky Paswik in private e-mails or phone calls.  Obviously I would not
make that suggestion simply for the sake of making it.  As far my e-mail address, that one is well known and it is my for the public contact point.  My phone number on the other hand is not public, I don't even put it on my business cards.  Since I worked in a public, tax payer supported facility prior to my retirement
I am used to have some information about where and how to locate me being public information. If I were uncomfortable with my email address being known, I would not have posted it.

As for learning, at least in terms of this discussion, the information that Rocky and I have already posted should serve as a great starting point for those interested in Balintawak and the various "schools" or "styles" to get started on their own research.  As I said in an earlier post on this thread, there are a number of my associates who are attracted to different "styles" such as GM Atillo, Sam Buot, Ted Buot, Master Jayme and GM Taboada.  As a group, we feel very fortunate to have access to these "styles" through both seminars and videos/DVDs.  Adding to that is the fact that we, as individuals, could have contact via e-mail with some people who were teaching/training in the particular "style" that was interesting to us.  There is already more than enough information available within this thread to keep people going.

Jerome Barber, Ed. D.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 24, 2013)

Well Rocky pretty much covered everything. That being said there are two things you wrote that I would like to address.
Jerome you wrote:


> I'm taking the position that you have some information that can help us all. You did come to the "balinatwak party" a bit later than my students and I. Richard Curren, Paul Martin, Tom Verga and myself began exploring Balintawak Arnis back in 1989, when I obtained a video (VHS) tape by Master Henry Jayme, entitled "Arnis: The Balintawak System". He was teaching the Teofilo Velez version of Balintawak. The tape was recorded in Australia with Mr. John Russell as the assistant/uke. A few years later I have an extensive dialogue with Guro Russell and learned about the 6 subsets of Balintawak, including the Atillo Eskrima System of Balintawak. I believe that Mr. Russell has written a book on the Velez version of Balintawak that was published in the late 1990s.


I guess we look at things a little differently. If you choose to count from the time you&#8217;ve read a book or watched a video, etc., I guess people could add as many years to their &#8220;research&#8221; as they want. That being said, counting time your way, my exposure to Balintawak started in the mid 80&#8217;s when Rocky would come to Buffalo and teach seminars here. Then I trained with Manong Bobby in North Carolina in the early 90&#8217;s and of course there was Remy&#8217;s old school Tapi-Tapi (modified Balintawak Seguidas). Personally I choose to count from the time I got serious with my training. In 2000, I started training with Manong Ted, until his stroke in late 2005.  For those who don&#8217;t know about training with Manong Ted, this is how it works. You start with a weekend training course to get the fundamentals. This is a 6 &#8211; 8 hour course. After completing the course, you schedule individual lessons. The most important factor is that ALL of the lessons are private at Manong Ted&#8217;s home. I would drive to Detroit monthly for lessons and would log 4 hours per visit with him. Eventually, I went down to 2 hour visits. The training was the best I&#8217;ve ever received. I had one on one training with the GM and received history lessons as well. Quite different from a couple of seminars and watching a DVD.



> I'm also going to remind you that between 1994 and 2001, when I was hosting GM Bobby Taboada for 4 summer camps and 5 seminars, that neither you nor nor any of your associates attended those events. I understand conflicting summer camp schedules to a degree but not attending any events is quite a bit to understand since Balintawak is one of the root systems of Modern Arnis under the late Professor Remy Presas.


 
Well, here is another statement that is a little off. I&#8217;ve been touring with Manong Bobby recently and this topic came up. According to Bobby, he only came to Buffalo 3-4 times for you. I know that you&#8217;ve hosted a fair amount of events at the college, so you may be confused as to how many times you hosted Bobby. Unfortunately, your events were always scheduled during Remy&#8217;s Michigan summer camps. I remember that you and I had a meeting and we specifically discussed this schedule conflict. You informed me that the only dates available were the same weekend of Remy&#8217;s camp, year after year.  As an event host myself, I realize that when I schedule events during other people events, I might not get support. 

Well, I have to start getting ready for my seminar in Dallas this weekend.


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## DrBarber (Jul 24, 2013)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> Well Rocky pretty much covered everything. That being said there are two things you wrote that I would like to address.
> Jerome you wrote:
> 
> I guess we look at things a little differently. If you choose to count from the time youve read a book or watched a video, etc., I guess people could add as many years to their research as they want. That being said, counting time your way, my exposure to Balintawak started in the mid 80s when Rocky would come to Buffalo and teach seminars here. Then I trained with Manong Bobby in North Carolina in the early 90s and of course there was Remys old school Tapi-Tapi (modified Balintawak Seguidas). Personally I choose to count from the time I got serious with my training. In 2000, I started training with Manong Ted, until his stroke in late 2005.  For those who dont know about training with Manong Ted, this is how it works. You start with a weekend training course to get the fundamentals. This is a 6  8 hour course. After completing the course, you schedule individual lessons. The most important factor is that ALL of the lessons are private at Manong Teds home. I would drive to Detroit monthly for lessons and would log 4 hours per visit with him. Eventually, I went down to 2 hour visits. The training was the best Ive ever received. I had one on one training with the GM and received history lessons as well. Quite different from a couple of seminars and watching a DVD.
> ...



Hello Tim,
My records differ with your reported numbers, but that is not the issue of this thread.  Lets get this thread back on track.  You wrote the following:
>I have two questions or issues with this post.
> 1. According to GM Atillos website, he was born in1938. That means he was 4 years old when the >Japanese invaded thePhilippines. I dont know >how much training he could have done with the >Saavedrasat that age. And I doubt that GM Atillo ever trained with the Saavedras sincethey both >died during WWII.
> 2. Saavedra Eskrima is not Balintawak, its SaavedraEskrima. Anciong Bacon modified what he was >taught and it evolved into wasis now known as >Balintawak. Calling it Saavedras Balintawak is saying >Yip MansJeet Kune Do.
I answered both of your questions and cited published datato give everyone an opportunity to check the validity of my citations.  Then I asked one very specific question ofyou: 
>So my question to you is what other source, system orstyle did GM Bacon have as the basis for his >'new' Balintawak system if itwas not what he >had been taught by the Saavdras'? You also might want tokeep in mind that Venancio Bacon was a nephew of Lorenzo Saavedra and cousin of>Teodoro Saavedra. (page 13).
You have not answered that question.  The burden is still on you to provide ananswer to my question.  Perhaps when youget back from Dallas, youll have time to answer my very specific question.
I also want to remind you that you posted the year 2000 asyour start date with Balintawak, now you are going back to 1984?  And you are citing Rocky as your source?  OK, I can accept that date  1984  but I dobelieve that at that time you were still a non-black belt student under GuroJohn Bryant, training at the Filipino Karate Academy in Amherst.   Iattended the same seminar and was a brown belt student under Sifu DonZanghi.  The seminar was held at the FKAsite.  And before you jump forward intime to better validate your Balintawak credential, Ill stipulate that youhosted Rocky several times prior to 1994 at your school sites.  I know that because my students and I attendedall of those seminars when Rocky came to Buffalo.  
My point about the Jayme VHS tape and 1989 was to say thatPaul, Richard, Tom and I were a bit more serious than you about researching theBalintawak connection to Modern Arnis. You were more focused on professor and Modern Arnis than I was and itshows in the fact that you were given a 6[SUP]th[/SUP] degree black belt byProfessor.  My highest was a 3[SUP]rd[/SUP]degree.  You continued to train with Professoruntil 2000, I split off and founded my own organization in 1994. 
So now it is back to my question.  If there are significant differences betweenGM Atillos approach to Balintawak from that of GM Venancio Bacon, what arethose differences since both men are using Saavedra Eskrima as thecore element in their respective approaches? Again I would like for you to be specific and detailed based on yourexperience with Balintawak dating back to 1984, not merely 2000.
Respectfully,
Jerome


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## Carol (Jul 25, 2013)

Forgive the side question -- does anyone how does the Atillo family and the Saavedra family pronounce their names?   If I didn't know otherwise I would pronounce them like Ah-tee-yo and Saah-bay-drah but I do not know if that is correct.  

Just curious :asian:


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 26, 2013)

*WOW!*  A Hartman-Barber-Parsons food fight!  I haven't seen one of these on Martial Talk since it went PG rating.  Good fun.  

Rocco - as usual your shy self and unwillingness to say what you mean comes to the fore.  You really must learn how to express yourself.  Lol.  Keep 'em coming, gents!  This is far more entertaining than the usual fare on here these days.

Yours in complete solemnity,
Dan Anderson


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## Rocky (Jul 26, 2013)

DrBarber said:


> So now it is back to my question.  If there are significant differences betweenGM Atillos approach to Balintawak from that of GM Venancio Bacon, what arethose differences since both men are using Saavedra Eskrima as thecore element in their respective approaches? Again I would like for you to be specific and detailed based on yourexperience with Balintawak dating back to 1984, not merely 2000.
> Respectfully,
> Jerome



Body Mechanics for one Atillos are not even close to Teds, there are no Whitiks or Abinicos in Teds teaching, and by most accounts Ted is about as close to Anciong as you can get this is why Anciong had Ted teach at the club from 1960 to 1974. I will say this for Gm Atillo he does look a lot more like us then most of the other Grouped or Modified methods. My personal problem is someone is trying to take away from Anciong, and Ted. 


Rocky


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## DrBarber (Jul 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Body Mechanics for one Atillos are not even close to Teds, there are no Whitiks or Abinicos in Teds teaching, and by most accounts Ted is about as close to Anciong as you can get this is why Anciong had Ted teach at the club from 1960 to 1974. I will say this for Gm Atillo he does look a lot more like us then most of the other Grouped or Modified methods. My personal problem is someone is trying to take away from Anciong, and Ted.
> 
> 
> Rocky



Hello Rocky,

I'm going to work backwards in my reply because I think your last points are the most important.  I can only speak for myself on this matter.
I see no reason to try to take anything fro either GM Bacon or Manong Ted.  History is history and the factual data supports the contributions of both men to the Balinatwak Eskrima system.  The title of Original Balintawak Club is accurate, but that club was formed some time after 1952, when GM Bacon and some 24 other people separated from the Doce Pares Club to form their own group, which took it's name fro the street where they met.

Included in that group of people who formed the Balinatawak Self Defense Club were Delfin Lopez, Timeteo Marranga, Vincente Atillo and Venancio Bacon.  Manong Ted did not join the Balintawak group until 1959, by his own statements published in the Filipino Matrial Arts Digest.  It was a special edition and if you need the precise citation I'll get it for you.

If anyone is being slighted it is GM Crispulo Atillo because a good number of people do not want to see him as a Balintawak player.  They seem to be taking the position that if they accept GM Atillo  as a Balintawak player, they then have to see GM Bacon as a lesser figure in the art.  That is total ******** and weak-minded thinking.  GM Bacon is an important figure in his own right, he was the lead instructor of the BSDC and later he did found the OBC.  Those are the real facts and that can't be taken from him  by anyone who is objective and interested in the truth.  Manong Ted was teaching the OBC style until his stroke and there is nothing that anyone can say to dispute that fact IF they are interested in the truth.  GM Atillo says that Manong Ted taught at the club in Cebu City.  He knew Manong Ted very well.  

You wrote: "I will say this for Gm Atillo he does look a lot more like us then most of the other Grouped or Modified methods."  

That is and has been my point all along in this thread and in past communications that I have had with numerous people who are in the different  variations of the Balintawak style of Eskrima.  That brings me back to my question for Hartman.  I have asked him to explain in detail the significant differences between the Atillo approach to Balintawak and that of GM Venancio Bacon.  Hartman opened that door by trying to deny that the Atillo-Saavedra approach is the same as Bacon's approach.  By allowing for individual and personal differences or preferences, no two people are going to show us EXACTLY the same behaviors or movements in a martial art. 

You wrote "Body Mechanics for one Atillos are not even close to Teds, there are no Whitiks or Abinicos in Teds teaching..."  

That is my mind is not a significant structural difference in someone's approach to Balintawak.  I don't like whitiks and I seldom use them, however I do teach them and allow my students to decide if they want them as a major part of their stick work.  On the other hand I do use abanicos and saltiks because of my height, reach and footwork techniques.

Thanks for your post and comments, now I just have to wait for Hartman to answer my question about the significant differences between Atillo-Saavedra Balintawak Eskrima and the Bacon-Saavedra Balintawak Eskrima.  The two approaches are not identical, but I believe that Hartman and/or anyone else is going to have an extremely difficult time showing that the Atillo approach is not Balintawak.  BTW Crispulo Atillo joined the BSDC in 1952 at the age of 14 and trained primarily under father while in the club.  As a charter (not founding) member of the BSD he has every right to call his art "Balintawak", along with acknowledging his father's roots in Saavedra Eskrima.

I think that the larger, unspoken issue for some people on this forum is that GM Atillo publicly announced his Disciple-Successors and three Modern Arnis people were listed, GM Tom Bolden, Master Douglas Pierre and Master Peter Vargas.  For some folks that designation alters the dynamics of lineage in Modern Arnis to some degree because the Atillos taught Arnulfo Mongcol the Balintawak style.  Mongcol was the first Balintawak teacher of Remy Presas, with Timeteo Marranga and Venancio Bacon being the others in that order.  Bolden, Pierre and Vargas are successors to one leg of the three legged stool that forms the basis of the Modern Arnis system and a few people are upset by that reality.  Those upset folks need to just step back, take a deep breath and relax.  The announcement has been made, it is reality and there is nothing that anyone aside from GM Atillo can do to change it.

Again, I want to thank you for your post and comments.

Sincerely,


Jerome


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 28, 2013)

First, I would like to say congratulations to those GM Atillo promoted and or recognized.

Second, I would like to say that I have never said to not train with GM Atillo and to find out what he has to offer and to learn from him.


I have stated that he has posted incorrect statements on his website in the past.  He made things up. Sometimes I think facts associated with his father have been associated with him. In other cases he either is not remembering them correctly or is just making them up.

I have had this discussion before, with students of Dr Barber. There argument was that FMA is a verbal history and one needs to look at the verbal history.

I countered with, I agree that it is mostly verbal history and when you have multiple lineages/groups who tell similar "stories" of what happened and they have an 85 to 95 percent commonality and the 5 to 15 percent are point of view statements that are neutral or do not contradict that data in the story, then this is a good way to use verbal history to validate.

Yet, when one and only one source constantly has different stories and different data, and those stories and data keep changing then the disagreements occur.


So if we go back to my first point, that GM Atillo has something  to offer, then why does he need to re-write the verbal history to fit his needs?


In one online discussion, I was told it was ok for GM Atillo to tell these tales as he was an old man telling the tales to his nephews and students. What is that harm in this? I cannot remember what exactly I replied with. I do know I made the point that if others did then this it escalates and people get upset and then not only disagreements, but possible fights could occur.



The students of Dr Barber also tried to use published sources to make their point. This is good way to make a valid point as long as the published source is vetted. Also one cannot with any integrity publish something or give an interview to someone else to publish and the use that as your published source to back up your statements. This is a circular argument.

With the published web announcement by Dr Barber and the allusion that the Saavedra's  trained Atillo directly is just another attempt at trying to make it sound like Atillo's version is correct. I understand the process and that if they get enough false information out there, then it becomes the truth. As Perception is Reality.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 28, 2013)

DrBarber said:


> The title of Original Balintawak Club is accurate, but that club was formed some time after 1952, when GM Bacon and some 24 other people separated from the Doce Pares Club to form their own group, which took it's name fro the street where they met.


I'm currently in the Detroit Airport waiting for my flight home. It's amazing what I missed. I think people are missing a point. 24 people didn't leave the Doce Pares Club to form the Balintawak club. Anciong left and the others followed him. He was THE teacher. Atillo was the son of one of Anciong's students.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 28, 2013)

It's awful coincidental that these claims came out after Manong Ted passed away.


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## arnisador (Jul 28, 2013)

Carol said:


> Forgive the side question -- does anyone how does the Atillo family and the Saavedra family pronounce their names?



I've always heard them pronounced with the L's and the V sounded out but then I've only heard them said by Americans, so...


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 29, 2013)

> I just have to wait for Hartman to answer my question about the significant differences between Atillo-Saavedra Balintawak Eskrima and the Bacon-Saavedra Balintawak Eskrima.



Hi Jerome,:

I'm not Tim (Thank goodness for the both of us!) but a couple of the major differences between Manong Ted's balintawak and Ising Attillo's balintawak:

1.  From what I see of Ising's striking there is a lot of whip/wrist action while in Manong Ted's, there is very little if any wrist action.

2.  Manong Ted stressed the lower body/legs to create the power in his strikes.  I do not "see" that when I watch Atillo.

I say this having trained with Manong Ted and watched Ising Atillo as well as had Michael Bated demonstrate Ising's art to me.  That being said, Ising DOES NOT move like a Doce Pares or San Miguel eskrima man.  His body mechanics, set ups and follow throughs as well as check hand usage looks far more balintawak (albeit more the grouping method) in my eyes than many other styles.

The key, to me, is does he do right by his students and teach them how to work the stick.  It appears he does.  That's all you get for 2 cents (MY 2 cents worth, anyway).

Yours,
Dan


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## DrBarber (Jul 30, 2013)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> I'm currently in the Detroit Airport waiting for my flight home. It's amazing what I missed. I think people are missing a point. 24 people didn't leave the Doce Pares Club to form the Balintawak club. Anciong left and the others followed him. He was THE teacher. Atillo was the son of one of Anciong's students.



Datu Hartman,

You've got this one about half right, but that is not what I want to deal with right now.  I'd like to focus on the central question of system structure
and your idea, as posted by you in the opening post of this thread, using a rough analogy between Balinawak and JKD.

I have asked you on two pervious occasions to identify the significant differences between Atillo Saavedra Balinatwak Eskrima and Bacon Balintawak Eskrima.  To date you have remained silent on the matter.  So I am going to ask the question for a third time:

*How does Atillo-Saavedra Balintawak Eskrima significantly differ from Bacon Balintawak Eskrima? 

*Please be very specific and provide some details in your reply.  You have asserted that you are an authority on Balintawak and that you have been involved with the art since 1984, so I would think that you have the knowledge and experience to answer this question.  I am taking you at your word that you know the differences between Atillo-Saavedra and Bacon since you have taken such a strong and unrelenting approach to any consideration of GM Atillo being a Balintawak player.


Respectfully, 


Jerome Barber, Ed. D.


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## DrBarber (Jul 30, 2013)

Dan Anderson said:


> Hi Jerome,:
> 
> I'm not Tim (Thank goodness for the both of us!) but a couple of the major differences between Manong Ted's balintawak and Ising Attillo's balintawak:
> 
> ...



Hello Dan,

Hey what's with this "Hello Jerome,:" business?  Slow down partner, I know you have a lot to say, plus I know you have better control over your puncuations than that ;-)

Ahh, but to the question at hand.  The differences that you point out are individual, personal behaviors and we should expect sort of thing when comparing different people doing the same general artistic system.  For instance both GM Taboada and Professor Presas studied Balinatwak and trained under GM Bacon for a period of time.  GM Tabaoda uses V-striking and Professor did not use it or teach it.  What I am asking Datu Hartman to explain to us is what are the structural differences in the Balintawak approaches of GM Atillo and GM Bacon (allowing for the fact that he will have to use Manong Ted as his reference person).  Everyone seems more or less agreed on the idea that Manong Ted taught Balintawak exactly as GM Bacon taught him, so he is a good and logical choice for Datu Hartman to use for the comparison.  I'm looking forward to his answer and hopefully he will man-up and give us a detailed description of the differences.

Dan, I did see GM Atillo's striking system and approach to swinging the stick.  I have it on my own personal taped recording, with his permission, of private lessons and in seminars.  He did generate his power from his feet with pivots, waist rotations and stepping.  He is a small man, therefore he has to use his entire body structure to generate full power.  You and I might get away with the occasional arm generated power strike, but not GM Atillo, so he has been very careful to make his pivots, rotations and steps.  You are absolutely correct, GM Atillo does not move like most Doce Pares or San Miguel Eskrima players.  He is very much a Balinatwak player who is schooled in the non-grouping methods.  Hence my question to Hartman, what are the significant differences between the Atillo-Saavedra Balintawak Method and the Bacon Balintawak Method?


Respectfully,


Jerome


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 30, 2013)

Jerome,

It appears that I am punctuation challenged LOL.  I'll need to relook at GM Atillo and how he works his body structuring with his strikes.  I don't recall his body action being the same as Manong Ted's and Ted was VERY strict on the particulars of body usage.  I don't believe I can get away with the occasional arm powered strike UNLESS I'm setting my opponent for the Good Night, Irene.  Then I'll use only my arm.  Manong Ted influence.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador (Jul 30, 2013)

Dan Anderson said:


> the Good Night, Irene.



That's what I call it too! Sigh...we must be old indeed.


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## Carol (Jul 30, 2013)

Old, but still struggling with premature punctuation? :lol2:

*ducks for cover*
:redcaptur


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## DrBarber (Jul 31, 2013)

Dan Anderson said:


> Jerome,
> 
> It appears that I am punctuation challenged LOL.  I'll need to relook at GM Atillo and how he works his body structuring with his strikes.  I don't recall his body action being the same as Manong Ted's and Ted was VERY strict on the particulars of body usage.  I don't believe I can get away with the occasional arm powered strike UNLESS I'm setting my opponent for the Good Night, Irene.  Then I'll use only my arm.  Manong Ted influence.
> 
> ...



Hello Dan,

The issue at hand is not whether or not GM Atillo and Manong Ted had the same body actions.  The issue is whether or not GM Atillo's art is  Balintawak Eskrima.  Boht you and Rocky have noted that GM Atillo seems to be closer to Manong Ted's approach and like Manong Ted, he does not use the Grouping Method of some schools of Balintawak.

If we took the body action of a person as the sole or primary factor in determining if someone is doing a particular art, a number of us would be in serious trouble.  For instance if someone is a 6', 200 pounder with large muscle mass in the trunk and arms of his body, can we really expect that person to have the same body movement as his 5' 6", 140 pound instructor with long, lean muscles?  The center of gravity point for those 2 bodies is quite different for those 2 body types.

As a Modern Arnis  guy, just how closely does your body movement conform to that of Professor Presas?  Do you use exactly the same footwork patterns as Professor?  Do you use exactly the same stances and execute them at the same depth as Professor?  If your answers are no to any of these questions then I coud say that you are not really doing Modern Arnis because you are not an exact replica of the late GM Remy Presas.  In essence that is the argument that a good number of people are directing at GM Atillo, while using Manong Ted as the surrogate stand-in for GM Bacon.  It is a very foolish and illogical argument that is premised on the false assumption that there is only one way to do Balintawak correctly! 

I see differences between you and Professor Presas, but I do not maintain that you are not doing Modern Arnis or that you are doing it incorrectly.  One of the big differences that I see between you and Professor is that he used a right foot forward stance most of the time, perhaps 85 to 90% of the time.  You use the right foot forward about 60 to 65% of the time.  That worked for him, but apparently not for you.

GM Atillo began his Saavedra Eskrima training at about the age of 6 or 7 and joined the newly formed Balintawak Self Defense Club in 1952 at the age of 14.  How old was Manong Ted when he began his eskrima training, who was his first teacher and what sytle was he taught?  He joined the BSDC in 1959.  How old was he at that point in time.  These are very important factors and will explain why there are some personal differences between the two men.  I am not making a good, better, best judgment in either direction, I am simply say that Atillo and Buot are different men with some different experiences who happened to also share a martial arts system, Balintawak, in common, but we certainly can not reasonably expect them to be identical in their respective approaches.

Throughout this whole thread my default position has been that The Bacon-Buot Original Balinatwak System is valid.  It is one of  5 systems under the Balintawak designation.  The common thing that they all share is a definite connection to the Saavedras, Lorenzo and Teodoro.  Therefore the Atillo-Saavadra Balintawak System is equally valid along with the other 4 methods.

There is another thing that people need to consider and research.  The Original Balintawak Club was founded by GM Bacon, more than a decade AFTER the Balintawak Self Defense Club.  Why did it happen that way?  What were the social, political and personal reasons behind the development of the Original Balintrawak Club?  I have a couple of answers, but most certainly not all of the answers.  I believe that it would be better if people did their own research and at some time in the future we compared our finding and sources.  After all, this is a discussion forum as MKS pointed out and we need information before we can have an informed and reasonable discussion.

Respectfully,

Jerome


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 31, 2013)

I think Dr. Barber that the issue here is that *Anciong Bacon = Founder of Balintawak*!  To my knowledge all Balintawak systems out there pay homage to that fact with only GM Atillo not doing so.   Instead GM Atillo seems to be positioning himself as the founder of Balintawak and that is what has people upset.  Really, no one cares if he moves close like GM Bacon or Manong Ted Buot or when he started training, etc.  What people care about is that it would appear GM Atillo is trying to lay claim as the founder of Balintawak or co-founder.  That's it.  That is the problem and it should not be muddled up with other stuff.  This all could have been avoided with the forethought to name his system some thing else!  Pardon the straight, blunt talk as I have no pony in this show but from looking into the matter from the outside this is what it looks like.  *As I have said before GM Atillo is probably a great guy, great martial practitioner with excellent students*. (I really mean this)  Just this one decision looks to haunt him from now on.


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 31, 2013)

DrBarber said:


> Hello Dan,
> 
> The issue at hand is not whether or not GM Atillo and Manong Ted had the same body actions.  The issue is whether or not GM Atillo's art is  Balintawak Eskrima.
> 
> ...


If that is the only issue, then it is a no-brainer.  Ising Atillo represented the balintawak club in his match with Cacoy Canete back in the PI.

DA, the historical miracle


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 31, 2013)

Now if GM Atillo credit's Ancion Bacon as the founder of Balintawak then what I said above is completely a non-issue.


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 31, 2013)

DrBarber said:


> Hello Dan,
> 
> *Hey Jerome - my answers are in this quote.*
> 
> ...


See above.


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## DrBarber (Aug 1, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Now if GM Atillo credit's Ancion Bacon as the founder of Balintawak then what I said above is completely a non-issue.



What you said is a non-issue.  The head instructor of the Balinatwak Club in 1953 was GM Bacon.  It certainly could not have been GM Atillo who was around 14 years old when the BSDC was founded.  According to the authors of Cebuano Eskrima, Dr. Ned R. Nepangue and Celestino C. Macachor, the BSDC was co-founded by Venancio Bacon, Vincente Atillo and Delfin Lopez on June 28, 1953. (p. 167)  

To quote the authors, "Together the established the Balintawak Self defense Club in June 28, 19953.  One technical change was adapted and this was the use of the single _olisi.  Other pioneers included the names of Isidro Bardelas, Tinong Ybanez, Ationg Abellia, Timoteo "Timor Enoc Maranga, Sr. (d.1988)).  The first elected president was Atty. Eulalio E. Causing, followed years later by Atty. Teodoro "Teoding" Amoco, Atty. Gaudioso C. Villagonzalo, Atty. Democrito T. Mendoza and Atty. Joe Villasin." (p. 167)_ 

Without taking any credit or prestige away from GM Bacon, the above information certainly implies that the BSDC was more than an eskrima training site.  It was a social club and meeting site as well.  We are too focused on the modern American version of martial arts training in which a school is established for one reason, to teach martial arts.  That obviously was not the case in the Philippines prior to 1953 and the BSDC followed the traditions of that time period and place.  There is another quote that I would like to share with you.  "Practice sessions were sometimes scheduled in other locations, like the residence of Vincete Atillo in Basak Mambaling or another location in Mandaue." (p.168)

That information is consistent with things that that GM Atillo has told me and others about how the BSDC functioned.  "Many smaller Balintawak groups were soon organized around Cebu; the original place could no longer accommodate many interested individuals who wanted to study the art.  Big gatherings usually happened on Sundays and during intramural tournaments organized every now and then.  As Balintawak grew, group rivalries also grew." (p. 168)  This latter statement by the authors serves as an excellent reason for the development of so many Balintawak teachers and GMs under GM Bacon.  The early tradition was for the local instructors to send their charges up the line to more senior instructors and eventually to GM Bacon for "finishing off" their training.  Two well know people who went through that training process were Professor Remy Presas and GM Bobby Taboada.

Please go out and do some research then comment.

Jerome Barber, Ed. D.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 1, 2013)

Is it not true that every Balintawak group claims that GM Bacon is the founder of Balintawak and that only GM Atillo does not recognize that?

I mean every Balintawak practitioner that I have worked with adheres to this.  Doing a quick google they all reference back to GM Bacon as being the founder of Balintawak.  It seems like you are trying to help in the rewrite of history here Jerome.


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## DrBarber (Aug 1, 2013)

I'm sorry Dan, but your discourse on mechanics simply doesn't fly with me.  I've seen all of the people that you've mentioned and I see differences in each of them, within their body mechanics.  No judgment, just an observation.  Part of the differences are tied to their respective bodies which are dissimilar to one another.

I understand where you are trying to go with your mechanics argument and it certainly is your right to go there.  The bottom is still unchanged.  GM Crispulo Atillo is a Balintawak player and has been since 1953 when the Balintawak Self defense Club was formed and he was accepted as a member.  He does not need to move like Manong Ted or GM Bacon to be a Balintawak player.  He was not trained by either man.  He was trained by his father in the Saavedra Eskrima style which is the foundational art of the Balintawak System, both grouped and ungrouped.  As far back as 1957 and before Manong Ted got involved with Balintawak, GM Atillo was being recognized as a Balintawak player according to the authors of Cebuano Eskrima:


"An exclusive group of young Balintawak stylists calling themselves the Ogok Gangcirca 1957 in Mambaling, Cebu city.  The Ogok Gang included Benedicto "Bening" Medado Comaingking, Sr. (b. 1935), the leader, Crispulo "Insing" Atillo, Andres Honorides, Flor Escasenos, Pepe Simon, Ruben Simon and Baldo Cabase." (p. 170)

The fact that GM Atillo represented the Balintawak club in the match with Cacoy Cenete from the Doce Pares Club in 1983 was no accident.  Each man was a well known and established member of their respective clubs in Cebu City, prior to their match.  Trying to diminish the stature of GM Atillo to make GM Bacon and Manong Ted seem larger and more important is really a sorry way to honor the latter two men.  They can very well stand on their own merits and deeds.  After all is said and done all three of these men have continued the legacy of one of the most important families of Cebuano Eskrima, the Saavedras.  Not only are they associated with the Saavedra Eskrima style, which may have been technically known back in the day as either De Cuedas or De Cadena (Cebuano Eskrima, page 158), but they gave rise to Doce Pares, Balintawak and the Lapunti Self-Defense Club (Cebuano Eskrima, page 171)).  Not to mention, one leg of the three legged stool that formed the basis of Modern Arnis.

So if you want to take a very narrow and parochial view of Balintawak having to follow only the Bacon-Buot line, that's you position and you are welcome to it.  I prefer to see the broader picture in which the Saavedra lineage and influence was broad enough to give rise to 5 branches of Balintawak.  Each branch is a strong and viable entity that bears great fruit generation after generation since 1953.  It seems to me that GM Bacon and his closest associates were wise in their nurturing of their legacy and it is only now in the modern era that pettiness, envy and greed are threatening a wonderful blossoming flower within the FMA.

Respectfully,

Jerome


I


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## DrBarber (Aug 1, 2013)

DrBarber said:


> Datu Hartman,
> 
> I have asked you on two pervious occasions to identify the significant differences between Atillo Saavedra Balinatwak Eskrima and Bacon Balintawak Eskrima.  To date you have remained silent on the matter.  So I am going to ask the question for a third time:
> 
> ...



Hello Datu Hartman,

Given the amount of time that has passed since if first asked my question and you have not answered, I am left with only one conclusion:

_*You Can Not Answer my question because there is no significant structural difference between what GM Atillo does and the late GM Bacon did as Balintawak Eskrima.
*_
Case closed.

Jerome Barber, Ed. D.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 1, 2013)

I don't think anyone is taking a petty, envious, narrow, parochial line Jerome.  No one is trying to diminish GM Atillo, his students or their/his skill level.  From all accounts GM Atillo is one of the more skilled eskrimadors out there.  No one is also saying he is not a Balintawak player (I am not) just that he is not the founder of Balintawak which is GM Anciong Bacon.  I think in the end if he had just named his system some thing else there would be no confusion and no need for us even to be having a conversation regarding this.  

We agree absolutely that the eskrima that came out of individuals like Saavedra, Bacon, Maranga, Lopez, Atillo, etc. (I am sure I missed a few) is pretty darn awesome!  We just disagree on the one important point.


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## DrBarber (Aug 1, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Is it not true that every Balintawak group claims that GM Bacon is the founder of Balintawak and that only GM Atillo does not recognize that?
> 
> I mean every Balintawak practitioner that I have worked with adheres to this.  Doing a quick google they all reference back to GM Bacon as being the founder of Balintawak.  It seems like you are trying to help in the rewrite of history here Jerome.



Brian, Do not try putting words in my mouth.  I have never heard GM Atillo disavow GM Bacon in any way other than to say, he (Bacon) was not my teacher.
That is a far cry from say that GM Bacon was not the founder of Balintawak.  And what is Balintawak Eskrima?  A new name for the Saavedra Eskrima art that
GM Bacon, Vincente Atillo, Delfin Lopez and Timoteo Maranga learned under the guidance of Lorenzo and Doring Saavdra.  The club took its name from the street on which it was located, but the art came from what they all had learned from the Saavedras.  I don't need to re-write history to tell the truth about the origins of Balintawak, nor do I have to try to tear down anyone associated with the art at any time in the past or present.  I see Balintawak as a whole system with 5 parts.
Seven of my associates have taken to and utilized different aspects of three (3) of the five (5) parts, Taboada, Bacon-Buot and Atillo.  I (we) see these parts as fitting our personal needs and agilities therefore we tend to be open to the entire spectrum of Balintawak.


Do some research. 

Jerome Barber, Ed. D.


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## Tgace (Aug 1, 2013)

No dog in the hunt here...Im not a big lineage/history afficionado...but what are we talking about here?

Is Balintawak a "style" unique in and of itself created by one person? Or is Balintawak a "Brand Name" assigned to a FMA style that is being practiced by numerous people?

From what you guys are saying here it seems like a group of people used to work and train together and one person in particular (Bacon?) but the Balintawak name on it and started teaching it under that name. Is that correct/accurate?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 1, 2013)

Jerome, the point is very simple GM Ancion Bacon is the founder of Balintawak. By everyone's account this is true.  I am glad you are not disputing that.  No one is tearing down GM Atillo.  It is only because he named his system Atillo Balintawak you have this issue.  By claiming that Anciong Bacon was not his teacher why in the world would he name his system Balintawak?  Why not Atillo Eskrima or some thing else.  If you go ask any Balintawak player other than Atillo's group they will say the founder of Balintawak is GM Anciong Bacon.  

I see what you are saying though in that you and your associates are studying all that came out of the Saavedera lineage.  Cool!  That is great and gives you a very broad perspective towards your training in Modern Arnis and it's ancestry.  Kudo's to you!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 1, 2013)

Yes Tgace Bacon founded Balintawak!


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## Tgace (Aug 1, 2013)

To rephrase Brian..and this is just from what Im gathering here....

Say You, me, Jerome and Dan all started hanging out and training together and eventually you go off on your own and start teaching "VanCise". Is "VanCise" what we were all doing together or is "VanCise" something entirely different that you put together? If I start teaching the same stuff am I teaching "VanCise"? Is the the same stuff? If I give it a different name but it is functionally and historically from the same roots is it the same thing?

Unless Im missing something (and I admit Im not educated in this stuff) this seems like the core of the debate. 

Or (more likely) I just haven't grasped what you guys are debating here......


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 1, 2013)

Hey Tgace,

*Like you I have no pony in the race here*.  However I am a firm believer that credit should be due where it is due.

Here is the short and simple version as I see it.  By all accounts the group practiced together on balintawak street with Anciong Bacon being the principle.  He then formed Balintawak the martial system and is credited with it as being the founder.  Now other people were taught this and it spread.  Everyone who practices Balintawak credits GM Bacon as the founder except for GM Atillo.  My contention is that Balintawak was founded by GM Bacon.  Jerome's contention is that Balintawak is a descendant system of the Saaverdera lineage and that Atillo Balintawak is one of several Balintawak lineages.  I would say that Atillo's system is from the Saaverdera lineage and while it or course has Balintawak feel likeness (because they all trained in the same place) to it how can it be Balintawk if he does not credit GM Anciong Bacon who founded Balintawak the system as his teacher?  To make matters more interesting since Manong Ted Buot's heart attack and passing this has come out.  Manong Buot was the one who taught at the Balintawak school when GM Anciong Bacon was not there. (most advanced student and later carried on the legacy)  Manong Ted Buot brought Balintawak to the US along with other Balintawak practictioner's who all in turn credit GM Bacon as the founder.  All except for Atillo who uses the Balintawak name but does not acknowledge GM Anciong Bacon as the founder.  None of this takes anything away from GM Atillo, his students, etc.  However, because of the name choice you have this confusion!  Now that is how I see it and if I am right everyone else except for GM Atillo and or future Atillo students who I am sure will be on here soon.  I am also sure that Jerome see's it differently!


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## Tgace (Aug 1, 2013)

My head hurts. LOL!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 1, 2013)

Exactly!!!


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## arnisador (Aug 1, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Is Balintawak a "style" unique in and of itself created by one person? Or is Balintawak a "Brand Name" assigned to a FMA style that is being practiced by numerous people?



The most common version is that the name Balintawak comes from the Balintawak Self-Defense Club, located on Balintawak Street and run by Anciong Bacon in the back of a watch shop owned by one of his students. In that sense it would be his style, with various flavors from his former students. However, other Saavedra Doce Pares practitioners developed some similar innovations, and of course they occasionally intertrained. It's possible that some of them may have used the term colloquially to describe their deviations from the Saavedra style but I don't of any specific examples of this having happened. More to the point, some claim that the Balintawak Self-Defense Club was run more cooperatively by multiple people and they all had an individual style; see, e.g., Ising Atillo, whose main web page begins mid-argument:



> Balintawak was established in 1952 not only by Anciong Bacon, Delfin  Lopez, and Inting Atillo. There were also others who were involved in  its establishment. Ising Atillo was an original member of that  organization as well; he was the youngest member at the age of 14.  Velez, Villasin, and Buot became members much later.
> 
> Ising Atillo's System is Balintawak  but he added to it what he found to be more useful and removed what he  thought was useless. Note that all other styles also customized  Balintawak in their own way. Although the main foundation of all other  Balintawak styles is the same, they are all different in some ways.
> 
> Ising Atillo claims to be original  Balintawak, because he was an original member when it was first  established. Anciong Bacon and his students alone cannot claim  Balintawak because many of its original members were not students of  Anciong Bacon.



So, the question as I understand it is whether all though who joined the club joined as students under Anciong Bacon or whether some came as fellow instructors. 

My direct personal knowledge of events is extremely limited--I met Ted Buot once and we didn't discuss organizational politics.


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## arnisador (Aug 1, 2013)

Tgace said:


> Say You, me, Jerome and Dan all started hanging out and training together and eventually you go off on your own and start teaching "VanCise". Is "VanCise" what we were all doing together or is "VanCise" something entirely different that you put together? If I start teaching the same stuff am I teaching "VanCise"? Is the the same stuff? If I give it a different name but it is functionally and historically from the same roots is it the same thing?



I think it's more like this: Suppose the four of you all trained under Remy Presas, then left and trained at another school. This could happen in two different ways: You might all have left to study under Dan Anderson (say) as your instructor and hence be his students, or you might all have shared space and trained together but not considered yourselves each others' students. The mainline argument is that it was Anderson Style (in this analogy), while the other argument is that those are four separate but related styles all coming from Presas Style.


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## arnisador (Aug 1, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Anciong Bacon being the principle.  He then formed Balintawak the martial system



I think there's an important side point to be made here. Nowadays when we think of soming making a new martial art we imagine it including from the beginning a specific curriculum, a well-defined rank structure, and a clear statement of lineage, all spelled out on a web page. This view of a martial art with clearly defined boundaries and the importance of transmission and legacy is, to my mind, a Japanese perspective that is being overlaid on other arts. My guess is that Anciong Bacon did what he did without a specific curriculum in mind. So, while he clearly had a martial system we should be careful not to assume that that includes the sort of emphasis on rank, curriculum, and hewing to a prescribed way of performing techniques that you'd expect from someone who studied under Gichin Funakoshi and started a variant of Shotokan. In many Filipino systems the history is muddled in part because they simply didn't view it that way. Indeed, I've been told (and believe) that many Filipino martial artists viewed their style as a a personal expression of an art and expected their students not to mimic them but to adapt the ideas to their own physiques and skills. 

This is probably part of the problem here--many people who trained together at times might not have viewed the relationship in the formally way two Japanese practitioners would have. They would meet, spar, exchange some ideas, and go off to develop them, and while one might be teaching the other more than the other way around the relationship might not be codified as student-teacher nor thought of as the passing of techniques vs. the improvement of a person's combative skills. Strategy is so important in stick fighting that it seems like that's what I'm often talking about with someone--much more often than the mechanics of a forehand strike. My experience of other arts has had much more time on mechanics relatively speaking and less on overall strategy and concepts (at least initially).



> All except for Atillo who uses the Balintawak name but does not acknowledge GM Anciong Bacon as the founder.



He says as much on his web page, as I read it--that he primarily practices a modified form of (Doring) Saavedra-style Doce Pares that is not heavily influenced by Balintawak but does call it Balintawak. He may be an example of someone using the term to mean not-Saavedra style which may well be what Balintawak meant to some people given the number of former Saavedra students who ended up there.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 1, 2013)

*First there was the Labingong Fencing Club

Then there was the Doces Pares

*     With in the Doces Pares there were the Saavedra's, Bacon and the Canete's. 

     Only Bacon had his Dagger removed from him as others would complain that they would bleed from being stabbed from his wooden dagger. 
So Only Bacon trained with just a stick versus stick and dagger. 

*WWII happened

*       Lorenzo the senior Saavedra and Doring (Teodoro) died in the war. 

       After the WWII the Canetes and Bacon meet with the idea that they would form back the Doces Pares. 
Bacon saw that there were more Canete's and they wanted to do technqiues he did not. There were more Canete's then him 
and he felt like he would be out voted for where the club would go. So he went his own way. 

       Bacon continued to train and work with people. He was offered to train in the back of the watch shop on Balintawak Street. 
At this point Inting Atillo enters the picture in the verbal history and with some documentation of pictures that he was an original member of the Club. 


       If Bacon was the only one to train with just a stick and he continued to do so after WWII and then taught the unique technqiues he was working on versus those wth Stick and Dagger
taught by the Doces Pares, then the two are different. Yes Doces Pares also had single Stick. So there could be similarities. 

      If Bacon did the Techniques that later were called Balintawak, and the original members of the club helped him train and practice and to work out the details then those original members would have something to offer. 

     So as Inting Atillo was an original member and Ising Atillo was a teenager and original member(?) (* Other than Ising I know of no other citation for this *), then Ising learning from his father as he claimed would also have something to offer to people. As I have stated in the past. 


Yet, no where in there do these assistants in training or members and students of the club were mentioned as Founders or creators of the system. It was Bacon who was the founder and the creator. 




In 1959 Buot started training and by 1960 he was teaching. He taught the fundamentals (Abecedario/Seguidas) to many a person, as well as advanced techniques. And until 1974 he was the only student who taught at the club other than Bacon. 


So if Buot is the only other person to have taught at the club besides Bacon, then how could Atillo be a co-founder or founder of the system? Would he not also have been teaching? 




Not being the originator is ok. One can still have a lot to offer. 


So if Ising Atillo has something unique to offer, and wants to call his system something, he should call it what he wants. If he calls it Balintawak it will cause confusion, and the easiest way to handle this is to say this is the teachings of his father in Stick and Dagger from the Doces Pares. Which then begs the question of what is unique? Would it not then be Doces Pares?


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Aug 1, 2013)

Hello all-

I haven't been avoiding the thread. Unfortunately my schedule doesn't allow me the time to spend on the forums as I did in the past. I just got back from my seminar in Dallas and next weekend I'm hosting the 60th Balintawak Anniversary camp.  Ad in fact that I'm dyslexic, it takes considerable time and effort to make a post.  

I haven't commented on the differences of the system, because several people already commented on them. For the record I think Atillo does teach Balintawak. His father (who taught Atillo) was a student on Anciong. My problem is not giving Anciong the proper credit for creating Balintawak. Maybe this is because Atillo was kicked out of the Balintawak club by Anciong for hitting with a cheap shot during training?

Well I'm off now. I have a lot of prep for next week's camp. When I have some free time I'll post more.

BTW, here is the flyer for next weeks camp. Hope to see some of you there!

View attachment 18201


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## BuffaloFOI (Aug 1, 2013)

Hey Datu! I got those Atillo DVDs!!! You were Right! GM Atillo dvd guality is Good! But Im a bit confused when I read this Thread...I  dont see the Big difference from when you tried to explain and demonstrate to me a few months ago after class. I know im not a black belt but i do research and dont take what people say on face value on others systems 

Ed Saulters
3rd Brown/Apprentice Instructor
WMAA


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## Grenadier (Aug 2, 2013)

Just a quick reminder to y'all...  

There's nothing wrong with asking an honest question, as long as it's done so in a civil manner.  

Repeatedly asking that same question over and over, following the target of the question from thread to thread, isn't very civil.


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 3, 2013)

To one and all.  My next series of posts have nothing to do with the legitimacy of GM Atillo.  He IS MY senior in the FMA and I respect and acknowledge him as such.  My next two posts have to do with communication to Jerome.  They are on their way.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 3, 2013)

Hi Jerome,
I am answering a couple of posts of yours in separate posts.  The subject of this post is You can&#8217;t have it both ways.&#8221;

Example: 8/1/2013 
&#8220;I'm sorry Dan, but your discourse on mechanics simply doesn't fly with me.&#8221;  
On the same day you say to Tim: 

&#8220;Hello Datu Hartman,

Given the amount of time that has passed since if first asked my question and you have not answered, I am left with only one conclusion:

*You Can Not Answer my question because there is no significant structural difference between what GM Atillo does and the late GM Bacon did as Balintawak Eskrima.*

Case closed.&#8221;

On the same day again you yip at Brian VanCise: &#8220;Brian, Do not try putting words in my mouth.&#8221; 

Yet just a few posts before that you say to me, &#8220;So if you want to take a very narrow and parochial view of Balintawak having to follow only the Bacon-Buot line, that's you position and you are welcome to it.&#8221;  

When in the hell did I say that?  You are putting out that I am taking some sort of a stand of one against another without my saying so.  Hmmm&#8230; 

DA


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 3, 2013)

Hi Jerome,

You told Brian VanCise to do his research.  I decided to do some of my own.  Your research is flawed.  You quote only one book, Cebuano Eskrima Beyond the Myth &#8211; Ned Nepangue & Celestino Macachor.  That is minimal research.  

*Cebuano Eskrima Beyond the Myth &#8211; Ned Nepangue & Celestino Macachor*
pg. 167 &#8211; &#8220;Anciong Bacon, considered being the &#8220;Mozart of Eskrima,&#8221; separated from Doce Pares in 1952.  Many well known Doce Pares old-timers, like Vicinte Atillo and Delfin Lopez, followed him.  Together they established the Balintawak Self-Defense Club in 1953.

Vivencio &#8220;Bebe&#8221; Lopez Paez&#8221; (b.1928) is identified with Delfin Lopez but actually learned his eskrima from Vicente Atillo, one of the Balintawak pioneers.  Crispulo &#8220;Ising&#8221; Atillo founded the Philippine Arnis Confederation (PAC) on April 24, 1975 in Cebu City.&#8221;  

Other than the two pages you referenced earlier (pgs. 168 & 170) the only other mention of Ising Atillo is on pages 114-117 having to do with his match with Ciricao Canete.

There is other reference material:


*Warrior Arts of the Philippines*&#8211; *Reynaldo Galang*
pgs 1&2 - &#8220;After the death of Tatay Ensong, internal bickering and politics rocked Doce Pares.   Anciong bacon, one of the disgruntled instructors, later dropped out of the society, reportedly after a bitter feud with the Canete clan.  He decided to break away and start his own club, opening his first gym in Balintawak Street in Cebu city in 1951.&#8221;  [note: the balintawak people featured in his book include Sergio Arcel, Johnny Chiuten, Nick Elizar, Timoteo Maranga, Rodrigo Maranga, Bobby Tabimina, Bobby Taboada, Teofilo Velez, Pacito Velez, Jose Villasin, and John Villasin.  Nowhere in the histories of these balintawak masters do they mention the names of Vicinte or Ising Atillo.  DA]

*Filipino Martial Culture &#8211; Mark V. Wiley*
pgs 267-268 &#8211; &#8220;In the late 1920s, Lorenzo Saavedra organized the Labangnon Fencing Club, whose name was later changed by Ansiong Bacon (a student of Saavedra and founder of Balintawak Eskrima) to what is now known as the Doce Pares Club.  Under the direction of Bacon the art grew in popularity and the Doce Pares Club gained students by the hundreds.  In 1939, the club was jouned by Eulogio &#8220;Euling&#8221; Canete, who now runs the club.  As a result of philosophical differences with Canete, Ansiong broke away and established the Balintawak Self-Defense Club.&#8221;  [note: Wiley continues on with the history of the club and no mention is made of either Atillo, father or son.  DA]

*Eskrima Filipino Martial Art &#8211; Krishna Godhania*
pg. 12 &#8211; &#8220;But with war comes casualties on both sides, and a number of Eskrima Masters lost their lives, among them the legendary Doring Saavedra (who was captured and killed by the Japanese kempe-tai); this left a void in the Doce Pares, although it regrouped with Ansiong Bacon as its top fighter.  Unfortunately, personalities and politics soon divided the club.  As a result, Ansiong Bacon left and founded the Balintawak Self-Defense Club (see p. 11).  He later went on to train such notables as Delfin Lopez, Teofilo Velez and Jose Villasin.&#8221;  [note: No mention of the Atillos.  DA]

*Arnis Self-Defense &#8211; Jose G. Paman*
pg.24 &#8211; &#8220;Frustrated by the internal politics of the original group, Venancio &#8220;Anciong&#8221; bacon, a top pupil of Lorenzo Saavedra, moved to another part of Ceby and established the Balintawak Club.&#8221;  [no mention of the Atillos.  DA]

So, where are the Atillos mentioned?

*Arnis &#8211; Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts &#8211; compiled by Mark V. Wiley
A History of Eskrima in Cebu and Negros (Essay) - Krishna Godhania*
pg. 55 &#8211; &#8220;In 1975, Crispulo &#8220;Ising&#8221; Atillo formed the Phillipine Arnis Confederation.  Atillo, who learned the art from his father and Venancio Bacon later participated in the infamous duel with Ciriaco Canete in 1983.&#8221;

*Black Belt magazine online
FMA Up Close: Arnis Grandmaster Crispulo Atillo*
by Keith Vargo _&#8211;_ June 6, 2013
Few people in the world can truly be called a grandmaster of _arnis._ Fewer still have studied with the original Filipino masters or fought in stick-fighting challenge matches. Crispulo &#8220;Ising&#8221; Atillo is one of those rare people.

*History*
Crispulo Atillo was 14 years old when he began his formal training in 1952 under arnis legend Venancio &#8220;Anciong&#8221; Bacon, but his first fighting experience came at a much younger age. During the Japanese occupation of the Philippines in the early 1940s, Crispulo Atillo&#8217;s father was a member of the resistance, and more than once both father and son narrowly avoided capture. It was also during these war years that he witnessed Venancio Bacon and another legendary _balintawak_ master, Teodoro Saavedra, fight in challenge matches.

These early experiences left a deep impression on the young Crispulo Atillo and made him a lifelong devotee of the original style of balintawak arnis.  After World War II, the only surviving balintawak master was Venancio Bacon. It was from him that Crispulo Atillo learned most of this single-stick style. But Crispulo Atillo&#8217;s father was also a student of the late Teodoro Saavedra, and the senior Atillo passed those skills along to his son. The result was a style of arnis that made the junior Atillo one of the best ambassadors of arnis in the Philippines.
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/t...a-up-close-arnis-grandmaster-crispulo-atillo/
[note: anytime I have worked with Black Belt magazine, they usually contacted me first hand to verify data was correct.  DA]

And here is how the title &#8220;Original Balintawak&#8221; came about&#8230;

*"ESKRIMA"*
_This article were taken from Grandmaster Dionisio Canete's book 'Filipino Martial Arts Espada y Daga'. I found that this was the most informative and comprehensive discription, of the history of the Doce Pares, and revealed many things that was never written down before._

&#8220;The tension brought about by the rivalry between these two groups [balintawak & doce pares &#8211; DA note] had considerably eased in the beginning of 1970, and it was about this time the Cebu Eskrima Association (CEA) was born. Spearheaded by lawyer Dionisio "Diony" Canete, the youngest son of Eulogio, all the fourteen Eskrima groups/organizations in Cebu joined as members. "Diony" was subsequently elected as charter President with Jose Villasin of Balintawak as Vice President, and event considered by many to have virtually ended the bitter rivalries among the eskrimadors in Cebu.

Shortly thereafter Balintawak had split into four different factions. Bacon headed one group called the Balintawak original while Villasin and Teofilo Velez named theirs as Balintawak Internatinal Self Defense Club. Timoteo Maranga who then held the rank of Major in the Cebu City Police Force baptized his club as Tres Personas Eskrima. 

_Vicente Atillo and son Crispulo headed another one known as New Arnis confederatin of Visayas an Mindanao (NACVAM) and was later changed to Atillo Original Balintawak Eskrima Association._

Subsequently, Villasin and Velez also parted ways with Villasin adopting the name Joevil Balintawak and that of Velez, the Teovel Balintawak Eskrima.&#8221;  [note: italics are mine and I left the misspelled words alone.  DA]
http://www.bandalan.com/History/doce-pares_history.html

My point?  Simple.  You&#8217;re apparently using only one book as a reference point to base your entire premise.  This is sloppy research, especially since there are other reference materials out there.  Now, unfortunately, the written history of FMA is nowhere as complete as Japanese martial arts or martial arts in America so the _total accuracy_ of any of these references are in question.  History is written by&#8230;the writers, if not by the winners.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Dan Anderson (Aug 4, 2013)

My, it certainly got quiet...

DA


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 4, 2013)

Dan Anderson said:


> Hi Jerome,
> I am answering a couple of posts of yours in separate posts.  The subject of this post is You cant have it both ways.
> 
> Example: 8/1/2013
> ...



Hey Dan,  

Good points! 

I have never said there was only one. Nor have I said one is better than another. 


I have stated there are differences and those differences should be documented and credit to those who made the changes be given, so people understand. 


Thanks
Rich


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 4, 2013)

Dan Anderson said:


> Hi Jerome,
> 
> You told Brian VanCise to do his research.  I decided to do some of my own.  Your research is flawed.  You quote only one book, Cebuano Eskrima Beyond the Myth  Ned Nepangue & Celestino Macachor.  That is minimal research.
> 
> ...




Dan,

You point of using a single source as your only reference when that source gets its information from the same person who is making the claim, being a difficult sell , will fall on deaf ears. It will be ignored or you will be called biased as has been done in the past when I tried to point out the same logical errors. 

Good Luck.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 4, 2013)

Dan Anderson said:


> My, it certainly got quiet...
> 
> DA




Dan, 

In the past Jerome goes quiet publicly at times like this, and sends out IM's, Private Messages, and/or E-mails. 
He makes his arguments in private trying to be friends and still get you to think his way. If you are not with him
he usually gets frustrated and tells you he is dine or finished with this subject. It is his way to try and keep it quiet
so if you bring it publicly again, then he can accuse you of breaking some expected level of privacy. 

I wish you good luck in this conversation. 


Thanks


----------



## Tgace (Aug 4, 2013)

Dan Anderson said:


> My, it certainly got quiet...
> 
> DA



I'm sort of sitting back and learning in regards to this whole thing Dan. I'm getting the feeling that "our" (American FMA) politics are very different from the "Politics" going on between these Filipinos. 

I'm betting that whats going on between you guys is over vastly different reasons than what went on between Atillo and Bacon.

In regards to the silence..there is this comment on Jeromes Blog.

http://seasian-martialarts.blogspot...howComment=1375676348489#c2698488478243424444

It touches on cultural differences. Which is something I have been wondering about as I lurk here. I wonder how accurate any of our theories on this really are as we pigeonhole events through our cultural lenses. 

I wonder if there are any Filipinos who could support/refute some of the points that most of you Non-Filipinos have been making here. And on Pauls comment on the OP as well...while Im his friend I don't know or stand by the accuracy of HIS sources either.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 5, 2013)

Tgace said:


> I'm sort of sitting back and learning in regards to this whole thing Dan. I'm getting the feeling that "our" (American FMA) politics are very different from the "Politics" going on between these Filipinos.
> 
> I'm betting that whats going on between you guys is over vastly different reasons than what went on between Atillo and Bacon.
> 
> ...





Tom,

It is not the same. The old Filipino's would go hit each other. 


As to that other site, why go somewhere, and allow others to edit and delete posts. I have been through that before with those that support Atillo. 

As to the only part of the link that I read before I closed it. 
Those who are too afraid to comment there ...

I prefer not to comment there as stated above, and for the reason that when I drove 4.5 hours to talk in person with Jerome, he would not talk about the subject. He kept changing it. 
He even went so far to attack books that GM Remy Presas had done. After a few times of trying to get the subject back on hand, I just allowed him to talk and rant, and to continue his victim 
mentality. 

As to the supporters there, they have attacked me on multiple sites and accused me of saying and doing things that are not true. They get together and act like a mob and make it two or three 
or even four or more against one.  So it looks like there are multiple voices against one lone voice that just seems not to get it. 

So I offer up why do they not post here?  Oh sorry, they are no longer allowed here, as they broke the rules, of dual accounts, and playing games, and such. Well their actions speak volumes for
them as I have not been permanently banned from any forum site. 

Dr Barber, has access to this site. He can respond if he wants too. 


Oh and Tom, just to let you know, some of the issues that got people in trouble was posting other peoples comments up for them from multiple sites. I know you understand this, and if you want 
to continue to be a middle person and post issues or links to sites they control that is ok. Just understand that all of those before seem to end up getting mad and crossing a line. 

So, I ask you kindly, and with respect, to consider your actions and how you support your teacher, and your teacher's teacher. I respect your loyalty. I respect your comments. You were never the one
to threaten me with your badge it was those that you support and those that are speaking out of turn. 

****



Jerome, 


You have access to this site. Do I need to take a page out of your play book. Create a fake account and have the account challenge to show up? Do I need to make claims that you are afraid of 
responding as you know your are wrong , and refuse to admit it? 

No, As we have disagreed in the past, and while I have asked you and challenged your response you stated through others you were not afraid. Just choose not to respond. 

As the great rock "Rush" wrote: "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." I respect your right and decision not to reply. You lack of reply in itself speaks volumes for those who
will read this in the future. 


BTW: I do not believe we have had any verbal or written conversation since your title of GM. Congratulations. I wish you the best in your training.


----------



## Tgace (Aug 5, 2013)

HI Rich,

Yeah..Im sort of in an odd position here, being one of the only people from "the past" still kicking around. To be honest I didn't know that Jerome still had the ability to post here.

As to the relationship between Paul and I...I suppose you could term it Teacher/Student when it come to FMA, but it's slightly more complicated than that. We have been "teaching" each other stuff one of us knows since we were teens. I learned how to rock climb...I taught him. He learned FMA...he taught me. So my relationship to this stuff is less "tribal" for me as it is something that concerns my friend.

As to my badge...it would be silly to let something like this degrade into doing something like THAT. I find this stuff "interesting" from a historical/people watching aspect. I don't have any personal investment in topic really.

Best regards.


----------



## Tgace (Aug 5, 2013)

So to continue the conversation and hopefully come to some sort of consensus...was Bacon the FOUNDER of Balintawak? As in...did he create the techniques of the art and are they unique to Balintawak alone? Or was he the head instructor of a "Club" called Balintawak with the possibility that other people could be practicing the same physical techniques/style just not under the same name?

The former seems to be the point you folks are supporting with the latter appearing to be what the other side is claiming. Is that the crux of this debate?


----------



## Dan Anderson (Aug 5, 2013)

Hi Tom,

You raise some good questions here.  Better yet, when you do raise them they aren't of the attack nature, etc.  I don't mind a good natured discourse.  I even have fun with them.  It's just too bad that it degenerates into "make myself right by making others wrong."  I don't mind the occasional food fight, though.

Yours,
DA


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Aug 5, 2013)

Tgace said:


> So to continue the conversation and hopefully come to some sort of consensus...was Bacon the FOUNDER of Balintawak? As in...did he create the techniques of the art and are they unique to Balintawak alone? Or was he the head instructor of a "Club" called Balintawak with the possibility that other people could be practicing the same physical techniques/style just not under the same name?
> 
> The former seems to be the point you folks are supporting with the latter appearing to be what the other side is claiming. Is that the crux of this debate?



Anciong is as much the founder of Balintawak , as Remy was the founder of Modern Arnis. Everyone was taught by son one else. Eventually one puts so much variations from what was originally taught it merits a name change. There are plenty of sources Anciong Bacon as the founder of the art. If you google "Who created Balintawak Eskrima" you'll get an overwhelming amount of sites that say BM Bacon. Then there plenty of books that say the same. 

I also want to point out that he wasn't just the "Head" instructor. He was the *"ONLY"* instructor until he brought up some one (*Ted Buot*) to a level that he would trust to do the job right. People may have started their own training groups, but they all where students of Anciong.

That's all for now. Need to get ready for this weekends Balintawak camp.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 5, 2013)

Tgace said:


> So to continue the conversation and hopefully come to some sort of consensus...was Bacon the FOUNDER of Balintawak? As in...did he create the techniques of the art and are they unique to Balintawak alone? Or was he the head instructor of a "Club" called Balintawak with the possibility that other people could be practicing the same physical techniques/style just not under the same name?
> 
> The former seems to be the point you folks are supporting with the latter appearing to be what the other side is claiming. Is that the crux of this debate?



Tom,

That seems to be the point. The issue is that every linage except Atillo says that the Founder was Bacon. Only Atillo has a different story, and his other stories are also subject to such wide variation from the norm they just do not fit in. 
While if you talk or listen too many other lineages you can here the same stories but the perspective is told from their teachers point of view when the witnessed it. This gives some subjective material, yet in all the cases I have discussed 
with people the information provided is not contradictory, and they provide information that tells more of the story. 





Dan Anderson said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> You raise some good questions here.  Better yet, when you do raise them they aren't of the attack nature, etc.  I don't mind a good nature discourse.  I even have fun with them.  It's just too bad that it degenerates into "make myself right by making others wrong."  I don't mind the occasional food fight, though.
> 
> ...




A good discussion is good. Questions are good. Claims that can only be validated from the source making the claim are difficult to understand or comprehend. 


So Tom, If I told you I was your Chief of Police. Would you believe me? Would you not point to all of the people who know otherwise? But I claim that I am the real valid chief of police as I was really the one chosen, and it was a political smear campaign that put who you call the chief in place. 
Those of really know like myself, know the truth. So go check out Mymadeupstories.com for verification. Note: I own and put the information up on this site. Also please go check this book. While the author is not me and it is not published by me, I am the one who provided the information for the book "Made up stories". 

So if I said the sky is orange. 

And then I said my proof is that I have an absolute statement in my given. 

The sky is orange. 

So the Sky must be orange. And all others who say different are wrong and just jealous and attacking me because they are afraid of what I have to say. 

Insert a red herring here.

Or, Do a diversion here as well such as ask people to go to a different web site so the argument are not all in coherent location. 












Datu Tim Hartman said:


> Anciong is as much the founder of Balintawak , as Remy was the founder of Modern Arnis. Everyone was taught by son one else. Eventually one puts so much variations from what was originally taught it merits a name change. There are plenty of sources Anciong Bacon as the founder of the art. If you google "Who created Balintawak Eskrima" you'll get an overwhelming amount of sites that say BM Bacon. Then there plenty of books that say the same.
> 
> I also want to point out that he wasn't just the "Head" instructor. He was the *"ONLY"* instructor until he brought up some one (*Ted Buot*) to a level that he would trust to do the job right. People may have started their own training groups, but they all where students of Anciong.
> 
> That's all for now. Need to get ready for this weekends Balintawak camp.






Those who have a lineage of Balintawak were recognized as school owners or teaching out of their house as their school, with the exception of Atillo. There are no such stories of information except from Atillo himself.


----------



## DrBarber (Aug 5, 2013)

Rich Parsons said:


> Dan,
> 
> In the past Jerome goes quiet publicly at times like this, and sends out IM's, Private Messages, and/or E-mails.
> He makes his arguments in private trying to be friends and still get you to think his way. If you are not with him
> ...



Hi Rich, Hi Dan,

Just a couple of points for your information.  I have not sent out any IMs, private messages and /or emails on this thread.
There is no need to make any private arguments because all the data is in the public view to be read by all so interested.
I enjoy a good conversation with different points of view and I don't get frustrated when there is disagreement, only when
my points are ignored or discounted in the replies because I try to answer the points raised by others and when I can't then 
I have to consider the validity of my points - sometimes I have to change - that happens in good academic discussions 
backed with sound data.  You win some, you lose some.  

I'm not "...dine or finished with this subject." ;-)  Although, I do know what you intended to write, I couldn't resist it.  No one 
is going to breaking any privacy considerations on this on this matter.  If I had sent either of you a private e-mail, I would 
expect that any exchange would be kept between the parties involved and it would be so on my part.  That after all is the 
purpose of private communications between people... information is kept between the two of them and that usually leads to a
 more open and honest discourse.

As for using a single source, that works and is perfectly acceptable if that source is valid and well researched.  Given that the 
authors of "Cebuano Eskrima" cited some 85 reference sources in the generally accepted academic/literary research protocol
areas of Thesis and Disseratation, Books, Journals and Magazines, Newspapers and the Internet, they were a good single source.
I think they went well beyond what Dan offered us within his post.  His citations were of a generalized nature and did not cover 
the Balintawak lineage that we were discussing in the thread.  There's nothing wrong with his sources, I read them all and owe 
copies of most, but those sources are not appropriate for the topic at hand.  I should also point out that I had read about a third
 of the sources that the authors cited in their book before reading the book and I have since gone through and read some the original 
sources cited.

There really isn't any more to say on the lineage matter as far as I am concerned.  It seems to me that both of you have position
staked out and will hold it regardless of the evidence that might come up.  OK, that's your position, why continue to argue?  You
guys know that you are right.  I don't have a problem with that.  I can accept that you are not going to consider any other option.
My research and conversations with folks both inside and outside of the Philippines tells me that I have to take a different position
on the matter and that's just the way it is.

A number of people have put the whole system vs. school name on an very modern western perspective, I see the BSDC in a larger
format as a social club with the martial arts component being one aspect of the reason for the club's existence.  Someone needs to
explain why there was a BSDC AND an Original Balintawak Club.  The authors of Cebuano Eskrima give us a strong and logical
 argument as to why that happened.  Good or bad, the existence of the two clubs with the very same name involved has to be 
explained by you guys, not me.  No one is arguing against Venancio Bacon being the lead martial arts instructor of the BSDC.  Nor
 is anyone saying that he didn't found the Original Balintawak Club.  My point was and remains that Crispulo Atillo was a member of 
the BSDC, trained with the other club members and was recognized by people inside and outside of the clubhouse as a Balintawak man.  
His father taught him Saavedra Eskrima, which is the foundational bedrock of the Balintawak System.  He has every right to use the 
word "Balintawak" to describe his system of stick fighting.

He is paying homage to his father and his father's teachers, Lorenzo and Doring Saavedra as well as acknowledging where the art went
after 1952.  He is part of the ungrouped side of Balintawak.

So that's it.  My position is different from yours and I'm ok with it.  You are absolutely correct in your position and we will just have to
agree to disagree.  It's not a problem for me.  Life will go on, the sun will continue to rise in the east and set in the west, at least for the foreseeable future and I'll continue to teach my students to appreciate both the grouped and ungrouped sides of Balintawak.  

Respectfully yours in the arts,


Jerome Barber, Ed. D.,
Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis Associates


----------



## Dan Anderson (Aug 5, 2013)

Hi Jerome,

Now that you are stating opinion as opposed to stating_ "that the facts of the matter are..."_, I don't have and never will have any problem with differences of opinion. Opinion and viewpoints are what they are - those and $3.00 will get you a good cup of coffee.  I am including my own opinions in that statement as well.  The works I have cited were from people who are not only legitimate FMA practitioners, but those who have been to and trained in the PI numerous times.  Mark V. Wiley has been to the PI a dozen times training with many masters.  Krishna and Jose have been there numerous times as well.  I take in all the works and make my own decision.

On a totally different topic, I tried to post on your site congratulating Tom Bolden, Doug Pierre and Pete Vargas on their acknowledgement by GM Atillo.  It didn't go through, probably because I'm not registered there.  Is that the case because if it is, I'll register and repost.

Yours,
Dan


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 5, 2013)

DrBarber said:


> Hi Rich, Hi Dan,


 
Hi Jerome



DrBarber said:


> Just a couple of points for your information. I have not sent out any IMs, private messages and /or emails on this thread.


 
hmmm?  Ok. Yet in the past that is what you have done, and that is what I wrote.




DrBarber said:


> There is no need to make any private arguments because all the data is in the public view to be read by all so interested.


 
Yes and no. As there are different opinions, and it seems it is your idea to make your opinion fact. And this is not the first time. Nor was there only one time.




DrBarber said:


> I enjoy a good conversation with different points of view and I don't get frustrated when there is disagreement, only when
> my points are ignored or discounted in the replies because I try to answer the points raised by others and when I can't then


 
You state you enjoy a good conversation, yet I have never seen you change your point. You expect others to change their perspective and see your point of view.

You have also told me that "If I am not with you, then I am against you."

So, please do not pretend to be open minded. You are far from it.





DrBarber said:


> I have to consider the validity of my points - sometimes I have to change - that happens in good academic discussions
> backed with sound data. You win some, you lose some.


 
Please show me data point on where you have changed, since the Death or Remy Presas and you decided to make a push even though you had quit the art years before.



DrBarber said:


> I'm not "...dine or finished with this subject." ;-) Although, I do know what you intended to write, I couldn't resist it. No one
> is going to breaking any privacy considerations on this on this matter. If I had sent either of you a private e-mail, I would
> expect that any exchange would be kept between the parties involved and it would be so on my part. That after all is the
> purpose of private communications between people... information is kept between the two of them and that usually leads to a
> more open and honest discourse.


 
First, Do not put words into my mouth. State what I told you in person, or quote what I have written.
Otherwise I can say things like the follow, " You are a paper tiger" well at least I know what you meant to say or imply. It gets nowhere, and is part of the red herring statement I provided above. Thank you for making that point for me.



DrBarber said:


> As for using a single source, that works and is perfectly acceptable if that source is valid and well researched. Given that the
> authors of "Cebuano Eskrima" cited some 85 reference sources in the generally accepted academic/literary research protocol
> areas of Thesis and Disseratation, Books, Journals and Magazines, Newspapers and the Internet, they were a good single source.


 
There are not 85 sources talking about Atillo Balintawak. There was Atillo.




DrBarber said:


> I think they went well beyond what Dan offered us within his post. His citations were of a generalized nature and did not cover
> the Balintawak lineage that we were discussing in the thread. There's nothing wrong with his sources, I read them all and owe
> copies of most, but those sources are not appropriate for the topic at hand. I should also point out that I had read about a third
> of the sources that the authors cited in their book before reading the book and I have since gone through and read some the original
> sources cited.


 
I have read many of the sources as well. Hence my position on this point.



DrBarber said:


> There really isn't any more to say on the lineage matter as far as I am concerned. It seems to me that both of you have position
> staked out and will hold it regardless of the evidence that might come up. OK, that's your position, why continue to argue? You
> guys know that you are right. I don't have a problem with that. I can accept that you are not going to consider any other option.


 

So, once again you get to say what is and what is not. You might be the final say in your class, just like a judge, yet when they get out into the world they have to live with the rest of the world where they no longer have power of people.

You state I will not change or accept. I accepted that the grouping methodology was created by someone  other than Villasin. The data presented made sense.

I do consider other opinions. It is you and your students who are closed minded and not willing to accept a different opinion.

So why do you make inflammatory statements, about others and statements that you know are issues.

You could have just made an announcement, that certain people were provided a title and others were given position or inheritance of Atillo's system. Before you accuse others, maybe you should look at your own actions. I have stated before. And yes it is tiring.    





DrBarber said:


> My research and conversations with folks both inside and outside of the Philippines tells me that I have to take a different position
> on the matter and that's just the way it is.


 
Really. My research was with Filipino's both in the US and in the PI and they all say one thing with the exception of Atillo.




DrBarber said:


> A number of people have put the whole system vs. school name on an very modern western perspective, I see the BSDC in a larger
> format as a social club with the martial arts component being one aspect of the reason for the club's existence. Someone needs to
> explain why there was a BSDC AND an Original Balintawak Club. The authors of Cebuano Eskrima give us a strong and logical
> argument as to why that happened. Good or bad, the existence of the two clubs with the very same name involved has to be
> ...


 
Atillo the senior was a member of the club. This is documented.

Others such as Villasin did have their own club. And Villasin was the President of the Original Club. Why? Because he was an Attorney, and was used to leadership rules for logistics. Bacon was the founder and instructor.





DrBarber said:


> He is paying homage to his father and his father's teachers, Lorenzo and Doring Saavedra as well as acknowledging where the art went
> after 1952. He is part of the ungrouped side of Balintawak.
> 
> So that's it. My position is different from yours and I'm ok with it. You are absolutely correct in your position and we will just have to
> agree to disagree.


 
Paying homage to his Father's teachers is good.
Paying respect to where the art of Balintawak went after 1952 is also good.
Being a part of the grouped or ungrouped is not the issue here.


As to agreeing to disagree, it seems we are on that page a lot. Yet, do not be surprised when people ask questions about your actions.





DrBarber said:


> It's not a problem for me. Life will go on, the sun will continue to rise in the east and set in the west, at least for the foreseeable future and I'll continue to teach my students to appreciate both the grouped and ungrouped sides of Balintawak.


 
Teaching them to appreciate both is good. Yet I wonder if you asked your students to believe the East is not the East anymore.  But it is the West. So that means North as become South.  Would there not be questions?

I expect there would be questions from reasonable people.




DrBarber said:


> Respectfully yours in the arts,
> 
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed. D.,
> Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis Associates


 
Peace





DrBarber said:


> Hi Rich, Hi Dan,


 
Hi Jerome



DrBarber said:


> Just a couple of points for your information. I have not sent out any IMs, private messages and /or emails on this thread.


 
hmmm?  Ok. Yet in the past that is what you have done, and that is what I wrote.




DrBarber said:


> There is no need to make any private arguments because all the data is in the public view to be read by all so interested.


 
Yes and no. As there are different opinions, and it seems it is your idea to make your opinion fact. And this is not the first time. Nor was there only one time.




DrBarber said:


> I enjoy a good conversation with different points of view and I don't get frustrated when there is disagreement, only when
> my points are ignored or discounted in the replies because I try to answer the points raised by others and when I can't then


 
You state you enjoy a good conversation, yet I have never seen you change your point. You expect others to change their perspective and see your point of view.

You have also told me that "If I am not with you, then I am against you."

So, please do not pretend to be open minded. You are far from it.





DrBarber said:


> I have to consider the validity of my points - sometimes I have to change - that happens in good academic discussions
> backed with sound data. You win some, you lose some.


 
Please show me data point on where you have changed, since the Death or Remy Presas and you decided to make a push even though you had quit the art years before.



DrBarber said:


> I'm not "...dine or finished with this subject." ;-) Although, I do know what you intended to write, I couldn't resist it. No one
> is going to breaking any privacy considerations on this on this matter. If I had sent either of you a private e-mail, I would
> expect that any exchange would be kept between the parties involved and it would be so on my part. That after all is the
> purpose of private communications between people... information is kept between the two of them and that usually leads to a
> more open and honest discourse.


 
First, Do not put words into my mouth. State what I told you in person, or quote what I have written.
Otherwise I can say things like the follow, " You are a paper tiger" well at least I know what you meant to say or imply. It gets nowhere, and is part of the red herring statement I provided above. Thank you for making that point for me.



DrBarber said:


> As for using a single source, that works and is perfectly acceptable if that source is valid and well researched. Given that the
> authors of "Cebuano Eskrima" cited some 85 reference sources in the generally accepted academic/literary research protocol
> areas of Thesis and Disseratation, Books, Journals and Magazines, Newspapers and the Internet, they were a good single source.


 
There are not 85 sources talking about Atillo Balintawak. There was Atillo.




DrBarber said:


> I think they went well beyond what Dan offered us within his post. His citations were of a generalized nature and did not cover
> the Balintawak lineage that we were discussing in the thread. There's nothing wrong with his sources, I read them all and owe
> copies of most, but those sources are not appropriate for the topic at hand. I should also point out that I had read about a third
> of the sources that the authors cited in their book before reading the book and I have since gone through and read some the original
> sources cited.


 
I have read many of the sources as well. Hence my position on this point.



DrBarber said:


> There really isn't any more to say on the lineage matter as far as I am concerned. It seems to me that both of you have position
> staked out and will hold it regardless of the evidence that might come up. OK, that's your position, why continue to argue? You
> guys know that you are right. I don't have a problem with that. I can accept that you are not going to consider any other option.


 

So, once again you get to say what is and what is not. You might be the final say in your class, just like a judge, yet when they get out into the world they have to live with the rest of the world where they no longer have power of people.

You state I will not change or accept. I accepted that the grouping methodology was created by someone  other than Villasin. The data presented made sense.

I do consider other opinions. It is you and your students who are closed minded and not willing to accept a different opinion.

So why do you make inflammatory statements, about others and statements that you know are issues.

You could have just made an announcement, that certain people were provided a title and others were given position or inheritance of Atillo's system. Before you accuse others, maybe you should look at your own actions. I have stated before. And yes it is tiring.    





DrBarber said:


> My research and conversations with folks both inside and outside of the Philippines tells me that I have to take a different position
> on the matter and that's just the way it is.


 
Really. My research was with Filipino's both in the US and in the PI and they all say one thing with the exception of Atillo.




DrBarber said:


> A number of people have put the whole system vs. school name on an very modern western perspective, I see the BSDC in a larger
> format as a social club with the martial arts component being one aspect of the reason for the club's existence. Someone needs to
> explain why there was a BSDC AND an Original Balintawak Club. The authors of Cebuano Eskrima give us a strong and logical
> argument as to why that happened. Good or bad, the existence of the two clubs with the very same name involved has to be
> ...


 
Atillo the senior was a member of the club. This is documented.

Others such as Villasin did have their own club. And Villasin was the President of the Original Club. Why? Because he was an Attorney, and was used to leadership rules for logistics. Bacon was the founder and instructor.





DrBarber said:


> He is paying homage to his father and his father's teachers, Lorenzo and Doring Saavedra as well as acknowledging where the art went
> after 1952. He is part of the ungrouped side of Balintawak.
> 
> So that's it. My position is different from yours and I'm ok with it. You are absolutely correct in your position and we will just have to
> agree to disagree.


 
Paying homage to his Father's teachers is good.
Paying respect to where the art of Balintawak went after 1952 is also good.
Being a part of the grouped or ungrouped is not the issue here.


As to agreeing to disagree, it seems we are on that page a lot. Yet, do not be surprised when people ask questions about your actions.





DrBarber said:


> It's not a problem for me. Life will go on, the sun will continue to rise in the east and set in the west, at least for the foreseeable future and I'll continue to teach my students to appreciate both the grouped and ungrouped sides of Balintawak.


 
Teaching them to appreciate both is good. Yet I wonder if you asked your students to believe the East is not the East anymore.  But it is the West. So that means North as become South.  Would there not be questions?

I expect there would be questions from reasonable people.




DrBarber said:


> Respectfully yours in the arts,
> 
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed. D.,
> Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis Associates


 
Peace


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 5, 2013)

Balintawak founder = Anciong Bacon.  Pretty simple really!!!


----------



## DrBarber (Aug 6, 2013)

Dan Anderson said:


> Hi Jerome,
> 
> Now that you are stating opinion as opposed to stating_ "that the facts of the matter are..."_, I don't have and never will have any problem with differences of opinion. Opinion and viewpoints are what they are - those and $3.00 will get you a good cup of coffee.  I am including my own opinions in that statement as well.  The works I have cited were from people who are not only legitimate FMA practitioners, but those who have been to and trained in the PI numerous times.  Mark V. Wiley has been to the PI a dozen times training with many masters.  Krishna and Jose have been there numerous times as well.  I take in all the works and make my own decision.
> 
> ...



Hello Dan,

The deal is quite simple, all of the positions have been stated and restated by a small set of people, myself included, and there is nothing new happening or available for consideration.  Brian VanCise posted an eloquent statement yesterday and we can leave it there.  What more is there to be added?   I'm leaving this right where it is unless I or someone else finds new verifiable data.  As I said earlier this is an area where we will have to agree to disagree.

I'm taking the information as published in the book Cebuano Eskrima as the most credible data to date.  As with any research study it is possible that newer, more definitive data could be found, but that hasn't happened yet and may never happen.   My current students will be passed along to my training partners and have their training expanded with the subset of Balintawak that best suits their interests, skills, abilities and needs.  Since my curriculum is based on a blending of Tracy Kenpo and Modern Arnis as developed by my instructor Sifu Don Zanghi, there is a Balintawak component within the program.  I've revised my flow chart to reflect the information that I have been able to gather and it does include GM Bacon, GM Maranga, GM Mongcol, GM Atillo, Manong Ted and Professor Presas.  Beyond that there really isn't anything more to be said and nothing more to be gained within this thread... simply rehashing the same positions becomes quite boring very quickly and it has reached that point for me.  

Respectfully,

Jerome


----------



## DrBarber (Aug 6, 2013)

Rich Parsons said:


> Hi Jerome
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Rich,

Thanks for the insights and info.  Will put them to good use and make you proud, have learned a lot already.

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed. D.
Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis Associates


----------



## MacJ_007 (Aug 13, 2013)

Ah this issue again lol.  The problem with GM Atillo's group is that they keep on revising their statements and history.  They had a problem identifying themselves with other Balintawaks in the past due to the fact that they refused to acknowledge that GM Anciong Bacon is the sole founder of Balintawak system and kept on insisting that Balintawak was founded by multiple people.  Now they are linking themselves to the Saavedras to prove their legitimacy?  No wonder I see some of his students claiming Saavedra's Eskrima nowadays lol.

Now as for the difference between Atillo's Balintawak and Anciong's Balintawak?  There's a hefty difference but I'd rather not go into this lengthy discussion as it will be useless since people would only understand it superficially.  Only thru play would you truly understand the difference.  But one thing is for sure, if you don't practice zero mind, then you are not Anciong's Balintawak.


----------

