# State of Mind when Fighting?



## BeeBrian (Feb 20, 2015)

What is your opinion on state of mind with regards to combat?

Generally speaking, is it better to be angry, energetic, and jacked up with adrenaline to win a fight? Or is it better to be calm, focused, and precise?

I consider this thing to be very very fundamental. It's kinda like... if you don't pay attention to this, why pay attention to that? Why worry about your macronutrient intake if you are consistently dehydrated? Why buy a book about entrepreneurship if you're unemployed? Why run before walk?

See what I'm saying?

Which is better for what reason?


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## Danny T (Feb 20, 2015)

Combat, a self-defensive fight, competition?
Your state of mind had better be to win. 
Combat - kill or be killed.
Self-defense - Leave or Control or Control and get away or Survive and get away.
Competition - Know the rules, set the opponent up and win or Control the tempo, control the area, control the engagement and have the most points.
They are all different; different strategies, different mindset, different rules of engagement. The effects of the adrenaline dump (and you Will Have the dump) is the same. What one should do is be accustom to the dump, its effects and how to control it. The more you are in the 'combat/fight' environment the less you will be controlled by it.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 20, 2015)

BeeBrian said:


> What is your opinion on state of mind with regards to combat?



無心



BeeBrian said:


> Generally speaking, is it better to be angry, energetic, and jacked up with adrenaline to win a fight?



Good gods, no.



BeeBrian said:


> Or is it better to be calm, focused, and precise?



Yep.

Of course, the caveat has to be made that, in an actual event, you will feel adrenalised… that's just the way it happens. But the angry, energetic, jacked up thing? Nope, not at all.



BeeBrian said:


> I consider this thing to be very very fundamental. It's kinda like... if you don't pay attention to this, why pay attention to that? Why worry about your macronutrient intake if you are consistently dehydrated? Why buy a book about entrepreneurship if you're unemployed? Why run before walk?



Well, leaving off the fact that none of the similes you use are really in any way related or similar, yeah, mindset is fundamental… it's fundamental to all martial arts… you can't train in Japanese arts without having it as a base corner stone to everything you do.



BeeBrian said:


> See what I'm saying?



Honestly? Not really.



BeeBrian said:


> Which is better for what reason?



The problem with any emotional extreme is that it twists and alters your perception… which is where we get phrases like "blinded by rage"… "frozen with fear"… "rose-coloured glasses" etc from. That's where the concept of mushin (無心) comes into it. It fairly literally refers to "no mind"… and is a way of attaining a lack of those emotional extremes (among other features). It is absolutely basic and fundamental to all Japanese martial arts, and really is simply the Japanese expression of what is required for any combative system.

In other words, the excitable, angry guys aren't the ones to watch out for… it's the ones who are in control… quiet… focused. The ones who are aware of exactly what's going on…


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## MJS (Feb 21, 2015)

BeeBrian said:


> What is your opinion on state of mind with regards to combat?
> 
> Generally speaking, is it better to be angry, energetic, and jacked up with adrenaline to win a fight? Or is it better to be calm, focused, and precise?
> 
> ...



I'd say definitely the calm, focused mind is better than the other.  Of course, this can be easier said than done.  I say this, because usually Martial Arts that are portrayed in the movies, tends to show the 'good guy' with the calm state of mind.  Of course, it's just that...a movie.  I'm not saying that there aren't people out there today, that are like that, but I don't think it's the norm.  

On the flip side, I think that having some anger to go along with the adrenal rush, is a good thing...providing that you don't let it get the better of you.  I think it's safe to say that the average person will feel some anger during a confrontation.  If your head isn't in it, you're probably not going to do too well.


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## Transk53 (Feb 21, 2015)

BeeBrian said:


> Generally speaking, is it better to be angry, energetic, and jacked up with adrenaline to win a fight? Or is it better to be calm, focused, and precise?



Ancient Britain was a little like that. Guess which the Romans where!


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## BeeBrian (Feb 21, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Ancient Britain was a little like that. Guess which the Romans where!



Calm?

I was playing chess with a really sharp guy a few months ago and he told me that I fight like the Greeks and he fights like the Romans.

I was gobbling up everything and trying to overwhelm him with my aggression. He was being prudent and planning counterattacks.


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## Transk53 (Feb 21, 2015)

BeeBrian said:


> Calm?
> 
> I was playing chess with a really sharp guy a few months ago and he told me that I fight like the Greeks and he fights like the Romans.
> 
> I was gobbling up everything and trying to overwhelm him with my aggression. He was being prudent and planning counterattacks.



About right. Discipline in front of a few thousand blue noses must have been quite entertaining. The Greeks were not that removed from the Romans, but with measured aggression I would say. Looking at the two.


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## BeeBrian (Feb 21, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> About right. Discipline in front of a few thousand blue noses must have been quite entertaining. The Greeks were not that removed from the Romans, but with measured aggression I would say. Looking at the two.



Alexander reigned in a more ancient time. Romans were more like classical antiquity than ancient.

In my understanding, the further you go back in time, the more morale-dependent armies were.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 21, 2015)

my state of mind before combat:
  win or at least survive to fight another day
 strike hard and fast at specific targets do not just flail away hoping to hit something vulnerable
 keep my mind as calm as possible in the given situation


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## BeeBrian (Feb 21, 2015)

This reminds me of a time when I fought a bully. I was young, he was young, we both just barely reached puberty. He was strong, I tell you that. There were kids bigger than him, yet he could arm wrestle them to submission. However, I was popular for being the only kid in my age group in that school who could do 20 strict push ups. And I had a few fights under my belt.

But when I fought him, he was alarmingly relaxed... He was never phased by my pretty-looking punches. He simply cocked his fist and rammed it on my temple.

He seemed to know what he was doing...

Later that day, my other classmates told me that he was actually a seasoned street fighter...

Lol


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## Transk53 (Feb 21, 2015)

BeeBrian said:


> Alexander reigned in a more ancient time. Romans were more like classical antiquity than ancient.
> 
> In my understanding, the further you go back in time, the more morale-dependent armies were.



Yes but don't forget that Rome was already established so is counted as classical as you say, but still ancient. Yes one could argue that the Romans harnessed morale as a weapon, as well as instilling this in the legionary. Probably was a greater issue with the advent of the auxiliary.


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## BMhadoken (Feb 22, 2015)

> But when I fought him, he was alarmingly relaxed... He was never phased by my pretty-looking punches. He simply cocked his fist and rammed it on my temple.



Thing about a lot of bullies or other folks who rely on violence to meet their goals; they tend to learn that behavior at home. What are your teeny little punches compared to daddy's drunken rages?


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 22, 2015)

BeeBrian said:


> Calm?
> 
> I was playing chess with a really sharp guy a few months ago and he told me that I fight like the Greeks and he fights like the Romans.
> 
> I was gobbling up everything and trying to overwhelm him with my aggression. He was being prudent and planning counterattacks.


So who won?


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## Transk53 (Feb 22, 2015)

BMhadoken said:


> Thing about a lot of bullies or other folks who rely on violence to meet their goals; they tend to learn that behavior at home. What are your teeny little punches compared to daddy's drunken rages?



Even worse when it is the other female parent..


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## LibbyW (Feb 22, 2015)

hmmm...
I think this applies best to me


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## Transk53 (Feb 22, 2015)

LibbyW said:


> hmmm...
> I think this applies best to me



Yeah, but with a lightsaber would have been cool


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## BeeBrian (Feb 22, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> So who won?



Mark three of my best posts in your opinion with a Like and I'll answer that question.

Want a clue? Manny Pacquiao vs Floyd Mayweather.


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## Transk53 (Feb 22, 2015)

BeeBrian said:


> Mark three of my best posts in your opinion with a Like and I'll answer that question.
> 
> Want a clue? Manny Pacquiao vs Floyd Mayweather.



What, your opponent bored you to a loss?


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

BeeBrian said:


> Mark three of my best posts in your opinion with a Like and I'll answer that question.
> 
> Want a clue? Manny Pacquiao vs Floyd Mayweather.



Friendly word of advice here… cutesy answers like this won't endear you to anyone. Honestly, you just come across as immature and childish. If you don't want to answer, that's fine… but these games don't help anything.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

The thing about state of mind is you don't have time to fix it. So it becomes a bit of a non issue.

Although having said that I like to rage out a bit. Sort of.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The thing about state of mind is you don't have time to fix it. So it becomes a bit of a non issue.



While there isn't much time to adjust/develop a new mindset in the event, I disagree that it's a "non-issue". It's like saying that you can't learn a particular technique in the middle of a fight, so it's a non-issue about employing it. Really, like any other part of the training, it should be dealt with and covered/developed well and truly before the situation itself. And it's such a large part of the way martial arts work that it should never be considered a "non-issue".



drop bear said:


> Although having said that I like to rage out a bit. Sort of.



Frankly, from my perspective, that's the sign of an inexperienced amateur… and you're opening yourself up to someone who has a more developed skill set in this area. In other words, "raging out" is something that should be strived to be avoided… on a number of levels.

Note that I'm not saying you're inexperienced (in regards to your security work), but that what you're describing is what I see in such inexperienced (typically young, as well) persons.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Frankly, from my perspective, that's the sign of an inexperienced amateur… and you're opening yourself up to someone who has a more developed skill set in this area. In other words, "raging out" is something that should be strived to be avoided… on a number of levels.
> 
> Note that I'm not saying you're inexperienced (in regards to your security work), but that what you're describing is what I see in such inexperienced (typically young, as well) persons.



Not really. Both methods work. Inexperienced would be allowing emotion to hinder your actions rather than help. Used as a tool to drive you, emotion works fine. But like anything you let it get over you and you can put yourself in trouble.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> While there isn't much time to adjust/develop a new mindset in the event, I disagree that it's a "non-issue". It's like saying that you can't learn a particular technique in the middle of a fight, so it's a non-issue about employing it. Really, like any other part of the training, it should be dealt with and covered/developed well and truly before the situation itself. And it's such a large part of the way martial arts work that it should never be considered a "non-issue".



It cant be dealt with before. Not specifically. Unless you can induce real fear in your training. You can overcome it by creating a super simple task set that someone could intellectualise their way through.

We on the job train people through that. But of course people mostly don't have the opportunity to do that.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

As far as on the job. I make them fight. Simple as that. My reasoning is I know given a choice between backing a guy up and running away I will back them up. And i know if a guy is getting attacked they don't have a choice they have to fight. So emotional preparedness aside we have a situation where everyone who is supposed to be fighting is fighting.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It cant be dealt with before.



Yes, it really, really can. It has been in Japanese martial arts (and many, many other cultures) for, well, centuries.



drop bear said:


> Not specifically. Unless you can induce real fear in your training.



And welcome to real training, mate. 



drop bear said:


> You can overcome it by creating a super simple task set that someone could intellectualise their way through.



I have no idea what you mean by that… can you rephrase? Overcome what? The training? The mindset? How does intellectualising help at all… and why a "super simple task"? Sorry, you lost me in all of that… 



drop bear said:


> We on the job train people through that. But of course people mostly don't have the opportunity to do that.



Train them through what?


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> As far as on the job. I make them fight. Simple as that. My reasoning is I know given a choice between backing a guy up and running away I will back them up. And i know if a guy is getting attacked they don't have a choice they have to fight. So emotional preparedness aside we have a situation where everyone who is supposed to be fighting is fighting.



Ah, okay… yeah, that's not really anything to do with emotional control, mind-set, or anything else… it's simply forcing a situation, and (to my mind) very removed from actual training.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Yes, it really, really can. It has been in Japanese martial arts (and many, many other cultures) for, well, centuries.



lots of things have been in Japanese martial arts for centuries doesn't mean it is going to work.

Or specifically work for the individual.

I am not sure where you are going with that?


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Ah, okay… yeah, that's not really anything to do with emotional control, mind-set, or anything else… it's simply forcing a situation, and (to my mind) very removed from actual training.



On the job training. And forcing a situation controls the mindset better than some sort of pre fight mental training. Because the mindset is seconds too action. Which is a mindset in itself.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> And welcome to real training, mate.



Well we just punch people in the head untill they cry or get over it. Which is fear inducing. But a bit mean.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

Where am I going with that? Same place we always go… you say something can't be done, we bring up how it has been done for ages, is continued to be done today, works, has worked, continues to work, but because it's beyond your experience and exposure, you refuse to acknowledge it, or accept that there's more beyond your understanding.

Frankly, at this point, you're what's called a frog in a well.

I mean… you do know that mindset training in Japanese arts is considered far more the point than any physical techniques, yeah? Because it's what actually generates success? The thing is, we have actual methods and training ideals that gear towards such, rather than leaving it to a random hope that such things might develop independently.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Well we just punch people in the head untill they cry or get over it. Which is fear inducing. But a bit mean.



Yeah… see, that's neither fear-inducing, nor mean, when it all comes down to it. And, again, just the most basic, base-level idea of martial arts training… to the point that I wouldn't really consider such thing "martial arts training"… just fighting. Which is so far below what I'm concerned about that it's not even a factor, bluntly.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> I have no idea what you mean by that… can you rephrase? Overcome what? The training? The mindset? How does intellectualising help at all… and why a "super simple task"? Sorry, you lost me in all of that…



Overcome the emotional response. By giving them no choice. Give a person one job and make them focus on that.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

How is there any emotional response in doing one "super simple task"? Or do you mean give them one task to do while trying to distract them with other stimuli (which would make some kinda sense, but is missing from everything you've said so far)?

Either way, that's teaching focus, but not necessarily mindset… so you know...


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Where am I going with that? Same place we always go… you say something can't be done, we bring up how it has been done for ages, is continued to be done today, works, has worked, continues to work, but because it's beyond your experience and exposure, you refuse to acknowledge it, or accept that there's more beyond your understanding.
> 
> Frankly, at this point, you're what's called a frog in a well.
> 
> I mean… you do know that mindset training in Japanese arts is considered far more the point than any physical techniques, yeah? Because it's what actually generates success? The thing is, we have actual methods and training ideals that gear towards such, rather than leaving it to a random hope that such things might develop independently.



so you are suggesting something works because that is what you have always done?

That is not the definition of working.

And the Japanese are not exactly dominant martial artists. So their mindset may need work.

It is not whether something is outside my understanding. But it does have to show some sort of result. Otherwise we are talking magic here.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> How is there any emotional response in doing one "super simple task"? Or do you mean give them one task to do while trying to distract them with other stimuli (which would make some kinda sense, but is missing from everything you've said so far)?
> 
> Either way, that's teaching focus, but not necessarily mindset… so you know...



one job you can do while crapping your pants. Then you don't need amazing mental powers.  You can function without them.

Yes focus is a good description Because mindset is kind of a non issue.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah… see, that's neither fear-inducing, nor mean, when it all comes down to it. And, again, just the most basic, base-level idea of martial arts training… to the point that I wouldn't really consider such thing "martial arts training"… just fighting. Which is so far below what I'm concerned about that it's not even a factor, bluntly.



I am happy to be considered that i am learning and enforcing fighting and not martial arts.

probably 2 separate training regimes anyway.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I am happy to be considered that i am learning and enforcing fighting and not martial arts.
> 
> probably 2 separate training regimes anyway.



Endorsing not enforcing.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> so you are suggesting something works because that is what you have always done?
> 
> That is not the definition of working.
> 
> ...



Yeah… you're again arguing from a point of ignorance, mate… it's always been done because it works. It works because it is the way human beings are hardwired (you can look at the anthropology of humans, how we developed as hunters and so forth to see the basis for it), and as far as the Japanese not being "dominant martial artists", dude, you're missing the entire point… I'm not talking about Japanese martial artists… I'm talking about Japanese martial arts… which you don't seem to have the first clue about.

This isn't magic. This is the way things work. I'll put it this way… when your coach ties you up in knots, are they "raging out"? Or are they staying relaxed, non-emotional, and so on?



drop bear said:


> one job you can do while crapping your pants. Then you don't need amazing mental powers.  You can function without them.



Yeah… you're still not really making your case. There's nothing at all about "amazing mental powers"… there's the idea of addressing the mental state as part of the training. You really don't have the first clue what you're talking about here.



drop bear said:


> Yes focus is a good description Because mindset is kind of a non issue.



No, it's really not. Go back to the example of your coach.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I am happy to be considered that i am learning and enforcing fighting and not martial arts.
> 
> probably 2 separate training regimes anyway.



Yep. But here's the thing… you're not on a "fighting" forum… you're on a martial arts one. So maybe you start to accept that martial arts are a bit more than you understand, and cover a lot more than you realise? Fighting, if it's part of it at all, is nothing but the base level of what's covered in martial arts. And if you're happy staying down at that level, that's fine… but insisting that others who take a wider, and deeper view, stay where you are… that's less so.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah… you're again arguing from a point of ignorance, mate… it's always been done because it works. It works because it is the way human beings are hardwired (you can look at the anthropology of humans, how we developed as hunters and so forth to see the basis for it), and as far as the Japanese not being "dominant martial artists", dude, you're missing the entire point… I'm not talking about Japanese martial artists… I'm talking about Japanese martial arts… which you don't seem to have the first clue about.
> 
> This isn't magic. This is the way things work. I'll put it this way… when your coach ties you up in knots, are they "raging out"? Or are they staying relaxed, non-emotional, and so on?



It is always done because it works is not a real thing. There are two separate statements there that do not support each other.

I have always got icecream out with a spoon. It gets the icecream out but the spoon bends. If i get icecream out with a knife it works better.

Always done is not really evidence that something works.

I could look at the anthropology of humans.  But it seems an overly complicated and unreliable way of seeing if something works. I would just test it to see if it works.

Japanese martial arts trained in Japan by Japanese has to be the best case scenario for the correct mindset and therefore should have the best success. But they don't.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Yep. But here's the thing… you're not on a "fighting" forum… you're on a martial arts one. So maybe you start to accept that martial arts are a bit more than you understand, and cover a lot more than you realise? Fighting, if it's part of it at all, is nothing but the base level of what's covered in martial arts. And if you're happy staying down at that level, that's fine… but insisting that others who take a wider, and deeper view, stay where you are… that's less so.



I am on a fighting thread. So you need to accept something or other.

Anyway your way or the highway with the reasoning that it is what you have always done is not accepting the wider view.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

Again… frog in a well.


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## Shai Hulud (Feb 22, 2015)

It may be difficult for most people to keep "calm and collected" during situations of high intensity and tension, so I will just say that your state of mind must be such that you tap into your training as if it were second-nature. Needless to say that to arrive at this point, you will have to train. A lot. 

The objectives that you will commit yourself to in every scuffle/engagement/fight however, will vary. In real-life self-defense situations on the street or wherever, where essentially you have a street-fight on your hands, you may have to prioritize control and escaping to remove yourself from danger. Someone serving in the force may have to prioritize disabling, maiming, or even killing targets should circumstances require (which may also work for general self-defense, but manslaughter and assault charges because you overdid it are unpleasant). Someone in competitive combat sports will have to mentally note the rules of his art. Is it to deliver a KO hit to the head? Land a number of strikes in good form? In this third case, you will have to focus on winning sport-specifically.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> No, it's really not. Go back to the example of your coach.



He is Italian. The dude gets emotional.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

When training/rolling? If so… find someone better.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The thing about state of mind is you don't have time to fix it. So it becomes a bit of a non issue....


|
The time to "fix it" is during karate training.  It's the karate mental foundation that carries the day.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> It may be difficult for most people to keep "calm and collected" during situations of high intensity and tension, so I will just say that your state of mind must be such that you tap into your training as if it were second-nature. Needless to say that to arrive at this point, you will have to train. A lot.
> 
> The objectives that you will commit yourself to in every scuffle/engagement/fight however, will vary. In real-life self-defense situations on the street or wherever, where essentially you have a street-fight on your hands, you may have to prioritize control and escaping to remove yourself from danger. Someone serving in the force may have to prioritize disabling, maiming, or even killing targets should circumstances require (which may also work for general self-defense, but manslaughter and assault charges because you overdid it are unpleasant). Someone in competitive combat sports will have to mentally note the rules of his art. Is it to deliver a KO hit to the head? Land a number of strikes in good form? In this third case, you will have to focus on winning sport-specifically.



which becomes separate to mindset though. Here you are intellectualising aside from finding a suitable emotional state. 

It is an element and relates to mindset though. One effects the other.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> When training/rolling? If so… find someone better.



Kyle noke is the only guy better. And he doesn't come to Australia often enough.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

I feel you and I have very different scales of what is "good" or "better"…


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> The time to "fix it" is during karate training.  It's the karate mental foundation that carries the day.



which is why karate dominates the striking styles. And Japan dominates karate?


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## Shai Hulud (Feb 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> which becomes separate to mindset though. Here you are intellectualising aside from finding a suitable emotional state.
> 
> It is an element and relates to mindset though. One effects the other.


This is correct. I was merely stressing that state of mind in this case should not be an end in itself, but a means by which one may achieve his/her immediate objectives and goals in a fight.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> I feel you and I have very different scales of what is "good" or "better"…



I am going off fight matrix.
Fight Matrix Current MMA Rankings raquo Welterweight - Page OrgFilter NatFilter AU OrgFilter2 AgeFromFilter AgeToFilter TeamFilter StateFilter 

What method are you using?


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

The distinction needs to be made between mind-set (internal state during an engagement) and tactical aims (escape, "win", survive, attack, etc). They are not the same thing.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I am going off fight matrix.
> Fight Matrix Current MMA Rankings raquo Welterweight - Page OrgFilter NatFilter AU OrgFilter2 AgeFromFilter AgeToFilter TeamFilter StateFilter
> 
> What method are you using?



A lot more than being able to win a competition or two. Frankly, to me, that's completely unimpressive.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 22, 2015)

BeeBrian said:


> What is your opinion on state of mind with regards to combat?
> 
> Generally speaking, is it better to be angry, energetic, and jacked up with adrenaline to win a fight? Or is it better to be calm, focused, and precise?
> 
> I consider this thing to be very very fundamental....


|
So often karate is compared to the common MMA styles based largely on technical comparisons, the physicality.  Your question highlights the mental equation which is so over-ridingly important, especially if you are facing a physically domineering opponent.
|
Traditional karate strives for the second supposition you presented, and another posted has commented on what I think is exactly the Japanese karate term (concept) that addresses your question.  I like to study & refer to Shotokan karate  because the Shotokan curriculum spells out these terms specifically, on mental training & the mental qualities to be developed by the karateka.
|
I'll  comment on why the state of mind is important later, like to see / review how some of the other posters respond....

BTW: My reference for the Japanese karate mindset, see Chris Parker, Page 1, 12:45am.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> This is correct. I was merely stressing that state of mind in this case should not be an end in itself, but a means by which one may achieve his/her immediate objectives and goals in a fight.



Yeah if we could be bothered there would be some sort of graph between the mindset and the task. Where one effects the other.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> A lot more than being able to win a competition or two. Frankly, to me, that's completely unimpressive.



he is quite the hip hop dancer as well.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 22, 2015)

BeeBrian said:


> What is your opinion on state of mind with regards to combat?
> 
> Generally speaking, is it better to be angry, energetic, and jacked up with adrenaline to win a fight? Or is it better to be calm, focused, and precise?


|
Here is the original post "problem statement."


Chris Parker said:


> The distinction needs to be made between mind-set (internal state during an engagement) and tactical aims (escape, "win", survive, attack, etc). They are not the same thing.


|
Right, I had the same thought, although the tactical aims are relevant.  IMO, The OP spoke directly to the "internal state," as you put it.
|
The comments made about the tactical aims, bring out two important point regarding the traditional martial arts.  (1) The knowledge & understanding of what exactly the mental dimension in training is, is far less developed than the physical techniques & form.  So we shouldn't be surprised when martial artists mix the "internals" with "aims." (2) The comments about the "aims" were important because the mental discipline sought in karate is a package of attributes, which function together & also in a number of ways.  So bringing in a separate but inclusive attribute by the posters was very valuable.
|
BTW: I see Shai H. caught this thought as I was typing, that was damn fast....


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## Shai Hulud (Feb 22, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Here is the original post "problem statement."
> 
> |
> ...


Thank you!

What you, Chris P. and others have pointed out, and what I have tried to point out I feel is very important. Mindset/disposition =/= tactics or goals. The former will have to be conditioned through training, resulting in mental clarity such that one will be able to draw on her trained drills, combinations and techniques for use in combat. The latter, however, will change depending on circumstances. 

What Drop Bear has pointed out, that one will inevitably affect the other, is also true. While one's state of mind will determine her focus and fighting edge and spirit, this state of mind will only be achieved if one has sufficient training in the martial art's tactics and is prudent enough to discern between them in accordance with a situation as it arises. Like two legs that are absolutely essential for walking. One needs the other for support.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 22, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> Thank you!
> 
> What you, Chris P. and others have pointed out, and what I have tried to point out I feel is very important. Mindset/disposition =/= tactics or goals. The former will have to be conditioned through training, resulting in mental clarity such that one will be able to draw on her trained drills, combinations and techniques for use in combat. The latter, however, will change depending on circumstances...
> 
> ...Like two legs that are absolutely essential for walking. One needs the other for support.


|
I train traditional style karate, so that is why I refer to karate, as my frame of reference.  And because the karate style is so popular.
|
The concept you set forth is vastly overlooked among so many participating in martial arts, particularly MMA, IMO.  I believe the failing of so many karateka, whether it be in karate competitions, or in MMA (or self defense), is founded in your reasoning.  What I refer to as Mental Discipline, you more accurately explain as "mental clarity" combined with "tactical skill & expertise."
|
To put this into the perspective of actual application, I like to say that the physically superior fighter (the athlete) /can not prevail/ over the mentally-adept fighter who is physically well conditioned (karate).


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## jezr74 (Feb 22, 2015)

How is any of this tested? Or what is the basis of evidence to say one works over the other?


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> To put this into the perspective of actual application, I like to say that the physically superior fighter (the athlete) /can not prevail/ over the mentally-adept fighter who is physically well conditioned (karate).



they are not separate. Or opposing forces. 

But bob sap is a good example where physical superiority can overcome a lack of pretty much else.


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## drop bear (Feb 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> they are not separate. Or opposing forces.
> 
> But bob sap is a good example where physical superiority can overcome a lack of pretty much everything else.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Feb 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> they are not separate. Or opposing forces.
> 
> But bob sap is a good example where physical superiority can overcome a lack of pretty much else.


|
The Bob Sap observation is a good one.  It also could not highlight the issue better.
|
Any traditional karate manual generally sets out as to what develops the human potential, then as other poster's I've quoted 
have discussed, apply that to martial arts, self defense in practical application.
|
I think the other posters quoted have established that the mental dimension is a cornerstone in preparing successfully for martial confrontations.  At least that's what I agree with....
|
OTOH, I think most sports trainers, sporting enthusiasts agree with with your proposition.  That's what make the style vs. style debate & competition so interesting.  And MMA makes a great laboratory to observe the results.
|
Your statement is way broad, it needs to be better defined psychologically....  Only the more reason why the topic discussed here is so little understood by so many, and even more so little practiced.  OP came up with a winner!


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## Shai Hulud (Feb 22, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> How is any of this tested? Or what is the basis of evidence to say one works over the other?


Excellent question, and honestly (albeit sadly), I have no conclusive data other than personal experience to back up any attempt to answer that.

From my own experience training as a Judoka and with the Keys Fighting Method for a while, I've concluded that jacking and firing myself up before a sparring bout or a fight helped to shake off any jitters helps, but didn't really work for me when the fight actually began. My current Sambo instructor keeps yelling at me to "center myself", pointing out that I shouldn't lash out flurries of techniques like a slugfest, but control and pace myself, and keep watch of my sparring partner.



ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I train traditional style karate, so that is why I refer to karate, as my frame of reference.  And because the karate style is so popular.
> |
> The concept you set forth is vastly overlooked among so many participating in martial arts, particularly MMA, IMO.  I believe the failing of so many karateka, whether it be in karate competitions, or in MMA (or self defense), is founded in your reasoning.  What I refer to as Mental Discipline, you more accurately explain as "mental clarity" combined with "tactical skill & expertise."
> ...


There's a lot of mind-work that goes into MMA too though. Like in any martial art, first statically drilling techniques then gradually adding resistance in dynamic environments conditions mind AND muscle memory, with the ideal end result being that you assimilate every technique as second nature - an almost immediate, conditioned response developed through training. The only real difference is that MMA borrows from a variety of arts, as opposed to an arsenal of techniques coming from one school alone. My art, Sambo, while it may not be as diverse, operates on the same principle.

Mixed Martial Arts fighters have to drill A LOT to make up for the diverse array of techniques they can run into, considering the spread of martial arts so popular as bases in MMA such as Judo and BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, even Karate and Kenpo. It takes a lot of hours put in training to get your act together for 3-5 5min rounds and not lock up while applying everything you've trained for. That too requires a good deal of mental focus and clarity.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


>


|
Well, what a display!
|
I commented on the overall karate strategy I use in the previous thread.  Philosophically speaking, let me say what I wouldn't do.  Dance around exchanging punches with Bob Sapp.  I'm not a sport-fighter like Bob Sapp's opponent.  You have to disable your opponent quickly.  That means hurting him so bad he can't continue.  Obviously there's an ethics issue here.  But against a Bob Sapp, to quote your proposition, you are in grave danger of being overpowered from the 1st second.
|
Traditional karate provides the tools.  Perhaps an MMA example was Andy Hug's spinning wheel kick (tornado kick?) that took down Mike Bernardo, who had handily dominated & punched the crap out of Hug in an earlier bout.  Traditional karate isn't about physical strength & cunning against same.  It's about precision tactics that leverage the body's whole power into the opponent's vulnerabilities.  Stand & bang or wrestle around with a polar bear like Sapp is OFF the traditional karate menu.
|
The mental dimension is what tilts  / levels the playing field against a Bob Sapp.  It's up to you / me to develop the Mental Discipline martial skill to bridge that gap.  Clearly on a physical level alone , defeating a Mike Tyson, Bob Sapp, nigh impossible.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 22, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> ...My art, Sambo, while it may not be as diverse, operates on the same principle.
> 
> Mixed Martial Arts fighters have to drill A LOT to make up for the diverse array of techniques they can run into, considering the spread of martial arts so popular as bases in MMA such as Judo and BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, even Karate and Kenpo. It takes a lot of hours put in training to get your act together for 3-5 5min rounds and not lock up while applying everything you've trained for. That too requires a good deal of mental focus and clarity.


|
The Sambo bringing the principles, to me, is more important the a vast array of techniques.
|
In fact, my perspective on traditional karate is that there is a very great number of techniques to draw on.  It's the actual application, especially in the grappling area that my style of karate is lacking.  However, I think too, that looking much at the technical's confuses the situation and detracts from your standing premise in the last sentence ("mental focus and clarity").
|
The KISS of traditional karate techniques can really shine when that latter is powering it...


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 23, 2015)

BeeBrian said:


> Mark three of my best posts in your opinion with a Like and I'll answer that question.
> 
> Want a clue? Manny Pacquiao vs Floyd Mayweather.


I'm not really that invested in getting an answer.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I have always got icecream out with a spoon. It gets the icecream out but the spoon bends. If i get icecream out with a knife it works better.



Or you could just use an icecream scoop like the professionals have always done..


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 23, 2015)

Or just dive in...
Especially if it's chocolate ice cream.


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## drop bear (Feb 23, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I'm not really that invested in getting an answer.



Threaten to dislike five posts if he doesn't give an answer.


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## Zero (Feb 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> they are not separate. Or opposing forces.
> 
> But bob sap is a good example where physical superiority can overcome a lack of pretty much else.



I don't like Bob Sap as an example in general (!!), as in so many ways he is/was such a poor fighter!  : )  But you are right and as you say formidable size and go forward mentality (until he gets hurt) gave him wins over much better fighters, often those other fighters that were also, Bob Sap aside, considered large and powerful.  They would make the mistake and still try to power through the likes of Bob and come to trouble.
Sometimes size, and when a _bit_ of fight ability is thrown in on the side, is just too big a factor.

People that have not been in fights and against much larger opponents often go on about how their superior skill, speed, agility, technique will win the day.  I can't stress how much BS that is!!  When you actually come to grips with a much larger opponent and stronger guy it can be a pretty sobering experience.  When I was fighting heavyweight and super heavyweight I came in at about 220 pounds and pretty much all muscle from weight and power training on the side of my fight training.  There was this huge Samoan guy in our club that on his heaviest stages could weigh up to 300 pounds and a bit more, a lot of muscle but also a lot of fat.  On individual power exercises like squat and dead lift I could shift more weight than him and on isolated exercises, such as bicep curls I could also beat him, to his annoyance.  He was a monster of a guy but I had trained for years at lifting.  That said when we would square, sometimes for a test or crazy laugh I would go head to head with him either wrestling or stand up.  Need-less to say, I ended up getting thrown or knocked about by a rag doll.

That said, if you have the space and are able to take on a bigger opponent on your own terms, the chances can improve.  I particularly enjoyed Mirko taking off the top of Bob Sap's head with one of his signature round houses, Sap almost started crying when he hit the ground.


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## Instructor (Feb 23, 2015)

Ehh, wax poetical about states of mind after the fight when you've had time to think about it.  During the fight, just fight!


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## Zero (Feb 23, 2015)

Instructor said:


> Ehh, wax poetical about states of mind after the fight when you've had time to think about it.  During the fight, just fight!


Interesting, I get what you are saying and the last thing you want to be doing when in the fight is thinking about the fight!  : )
...But, given the split second decisions and often reflex/automatic responses that need to be made in a fight, particularly when you have two top fighters going at it, would you say that in that respect top level fighting is any different from say the likes of Formula 1, at least regarding the degree of micro second decisions/actions and reactions required at times during a fight?

It is generally accepted, well at least in the reading and documentaries I have watched, that the state of mind of most F1 drivers is a key factor to their success and on track ability.

Don't you think this could be equally so for a fighter?  Why would it not be a good thing to work on and train one's state of mind in preparedness for fighting?  This applies for competition and also separately for SD situations.


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## Transk53 (Feb 23, 2015)

Instructor said:


> Ehh, wax poetical about states of mind after the fight when you've had time to think about it.  During the fight, just fight!



Yeah, really quite simplistic when all said and done. A person will probably spend more time for the kettle to boil than the time spent in a confrontation.


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## Instructor (Feb 23, 2015)

I can't comment on formula one driving as I have never done that.  Competitive fighting is not the same as fighting for your life.  I have only sparred competitively on a small handful of occasions.  I felt tense going in and downright trepidation going against particularly skilled people.  But in the couple of times I've had to really fight for my life, I felt terror.  

The work we have done with Mushin helped me more than anything in both cases.  It's less about strategizing and more about just keeping your mind open and clear, free of clutter.  Using breathing to try to convert fear into something more useful.  Once I enter that mushin state though everything just seems to move in slow motion and I am able to function much better.


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## Zero (Feb 23, 2015)

Instructor said:


> I can't comment on formula one driving as I have never done that.  Competitive fighting is not the same as fighting for your life.  I have only sparred competitively on a small handful of occasions.  I felt tense going in and downright trepidation going against particularly skilled people.  But in the couple of times I've had to really fight for my life, I felt terror.
> 
> The work we have done with Mushin helped me more than anything in both cases.  It's less about strategizing and more about just keeping your mind open and clear, free of clutter.  Using breathing to try to convert fear into something more useful.  Once I enter that mushin state though everything just seems to move in slow motion and I am able to function much better.



Thanks for response.  It is your comments on mushin I was more thinking of and that this is applicable both for tournament and SD equally.

That said, a particular mind-set, even if training and working on such, may be different for different people...I think back to when Mark Coleman was at his peak and in particularly good condition, he would appear (and possibly was) completely psyched up/jacked up/, just a charging enraged bull-like bundle of muscle. At times it seemed like he had the "red mist" going, I remember when Shogun dislocated his shoulder and the ref had to jump in, it looked like Coleman was going to chuck the ref out of the ring and keep going at Shogun until The Axe Murderer (Wanderlei) jumped into the ring and got in between them.  Coleman kicked some serious butt at times and won himself a Pride grand prix in the mix.  That seemed to work for him  : )


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## Blindside (Feb 23, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> The concept you set forth is vastly overlooked among so many participating in martial arts, particularly MMA, IMO.  I believe the failing of so many karateka, whether it be in karate competitions, or in MMA (or self defense), is founded in your reasoning.  What I refer to as Mental Discipline, you more accurately explain as "mental clarity" combined with "tactical skill & expertise."
> |
> To put this into the perspective of actual application, I like to say that the physically superior fighter (the athlete) /can not prevail/ over the mentally-adept fighter who is physically well conditioned (karate).


 
What training elements provide the "mental clarity" that you have the karateka pursuing?  How do you build that skill?


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## Transk53 (Feb 23, 2015)

Blindside said:


> What training elements provide the *"mental clarity"* that you have the karateka pursuing?  How do you build that skill?



From my personal viewpoint, one is bestowed at birth


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## Instructor (Feb 23, 2015)

I feel that mushin can be learned.  It's a host of training factors that lead to it.  Some people get it right away, some figure it out later, and some never seem to get it.  We have found that simply doing your drills (whatever your style may have) while focusing on breathing and letting go of distractions one by one to be effective.  Loose-tight pinpoint strikes against targets while focusing on breathing and letting go of mental clutter can work.  Sometimes I find it useful to focus on one thing, just that one thing, then after I have that down I let it go and focus on nothing at all.  It's incredibly hard to relate or teach but it's not insurmountable.


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## Instructor (Feb 23, 2015)

I have actually written about Mushin and related martial arts mental phenomena here if anybody is interested:  Who is a Black Belt - Hapkido Online
Just skip down to the parts that are relevant.


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## drop bear (Feb 23, 2015)

Zero said:


> Interesting, I get what you are saying and the last thing you want to be doing when in the fight is thinking about the fight!  : )
> ...But, given the split second decisions and often reflex/automatic responses that need to be made in a fight, particularly when you have two top fighters going at it, would you say that in that respect top level fighting is any different from say the likes of Formula 1, at least regarding the degree of micro second decisions/actions and reactions required at times during a fight?
> 
> It is generally accepted, well at least in the reading and documentaries I have watched, that the state of mind of most F1 drivers is a key factor to their success and on track ability.
> ...



what instructor is advocating is a mindset though.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 23, 2015)

Blindside said:


> What training elements provide the "mental clarity" that you have the karateka pursuing?  How do you build that skill?


|
As a preface, I note "Instructor" has developed his thesis on "mushin."  I haven't reviewed his work.  We should recognize that this is a critically important foundational mental principle directly spelled out in the Shotokan syllabus.
|
You know in all these debates, such as "TMA vs. MMA,"  which is better, etc. there is a ton of descriptive talk looking at the expression of the arts from the view of an observer, including the participant themselves.  To competently answer these questions, I started my own traditional karate training manual.  I actually took the manual to a local kung fu school to show the school instructor, hoping to be accepted with him supporting my approach I was developing.  Instead, he basically told me to "get lost."  However, I persisted and came back when the Master who owned the school was on the premises.  He did take a look at my personal manual.  He clearly wasn't impressed with my style of karate, kinda talked it down.  Then he took the school instructor aside and told him to let me come & train on whatever basis i wanted....
|
To speak directly to your question, my traditional karate training regimen in my manual has 5 components: (1) conditioning, (2) kihon or basics, (3) kata (forms or patterns), (4) self defense applications, (5) kumite or sparring.  I also did a supplemental section on simple fighting combinations made up from the kihon techniques and some applied techniques.  My approach to kumite was extraordinarily traditional with the major emphasis on 1-step sparring or ippon kumite.  The nature of the regimen is of a progression starting with (1) conditioning and moving to the top with (5) sparring.  The supplemental fighting combo's were treated as an extension of (2) kihon where you move from perfecting form and foundation to rudimentary application. In terms of progression, Jiyu Kumite (free sparring) is at the top (5); Ippon Kumite could be considered Level (4) along with self defense applications.  In terms of sophistication & comprehensiveness, kata ranks a (5).
|
All of the exercises in the 5 level progression build "mental clarity," but actually a broader set of mental capabilities in complete correctness.
|
The imperative defining principle is how these exercises are trained is what matters.  Critics of traditional karate, and I just read one MMA wrtier today speaking about how karate isn't seen in MMA much because of it's fixed stances, rigid technique & front on positioning causing karate to be too vulnerable in actual fighting, like to point to karateka as a bunch of stick men marching up & down the dojo like robots waiting for the instructors next command.  Of course there no end to the number who actually train this way, going to class and putting their bodies into physical forms with their minds off, mindlessly reciting a gym routine.
|
The process works when the karateka engages the mind actively, using the mind to consciously & deliberately direct the physical form, the body positioning, the body mechanics.  Unlike muscle memory developed by athletics, traditional karate develops the actively thinking mind which is constantly in control over every precision movement.  It is an internal process, where the body & mind work together in unity with the mind giving complete direction.
|
This is why my kihon karate is so effective.  I simply can straight punch faster than my opponent can react.  I can actually block strikes using kihon karate blocks because my mental acuity is so high.  The mental ability developed under kata training is what takes this mental acuity to its highest level.
|
Traditional karate is not a phyiscal exercise--this is where most go wrong.  Traditional karate is a mental discipline.  Completion of the physical form in traditional karate is really the outward expression of that mental discipline.
|
This is also why TMA > MMA.  TMA is also much harder to become proficient at, takes longer, more requires knowledge, dedication & mental discipline.
|
P.S. BTW, note my manual fits within the general scope of the traditional karate regimen of kihon, kata, kumite.  Everything I've uncovered, IMO supports that the historical karate masters knew exactly what they were talking about.


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## Steve (Feb 24, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> This is also why TMA > MMA.  TMA is also much harder to become proficient at, takes longer, more requires knowledge, dedication & mental discipline.


Kind of a tangent, but there are some problems with this statement.  While "MMA" refers to something very specific, we've experienced many times that "TMA" is a term so broadly used and with so many different definitions, it's not very useful.  I think any comparisons between MMA and TMA are flawed from the outset.  While I don't think it's usually very constructive, if we must compare MMA to something, better (IMO) to be specific:  MMA and TKD or some other specific style.

Being harder doesn't necessarily make something "better" or "greater than" something else.  I have actually found the opposite to be true most times.  There is a big difference between taking more time to do something well and taking more time because something is hard. You can make absolutely anything difficult.  Take something complex and make it easy and you're on to something.

Also, something to remember is that "proficient" and "expert" are not the same thing.  There are degrees of proficiency.  In most cases, if something has a very long path to proficiency (ie, competence), you're probably either learning the wrong thing, or learning the right thing in the wrong way.


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## drop bear (Feb 24, 2015)

Steve said:


> Also, something to remember is that "proficient" and "expert" are not the same thing. There are degrees of proficiency. In most cases, if something has a very long path to proficiency (ie, competence), you're probably either learning the wrong thing, or learning the right thing in the wrong way.



It depends on the guy you are trying to do it to.


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## drop bear (Feb 24, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> This is why my kihon karate is so effective. I simply can straight punch faster than my opponent can react. I can actually block strikes using kihon karate blocks because my mental acuity is so high. The mental ability developed under kata training is what takes this mental acuity to its highest level.



That would be easy to test.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 24, 2015)

Steve said:


> Kind of a tangent, but there are some problems with this statement.  While "MMA" refers to something very specific, we've experienced many times that "TMA" is a term so broadly used and with so many different definitions, it's not very useful.  I think any comparisons between MMA and TMA are flawed from the outset.  While I don't think it's usually very constructive, if we must compare MMA to something, better (IMO) to be specific:  MMA and TKD or some other specific style.


|
Thanks for the reply.  TMA is very, very diverse.  Yet there is a commom underlying approach to developing the human potential that is classical across all TMAs. In that light, TMA is a defining theory on the approach to martial arts.  Your ending sentence is the seed for a number of good threads.  Also true is that the outward, physical comparisons have been made over & over.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 24, 2015)

Steve said:


> Being harder doesn't necessarily make something "better" or "greater than" something else.  I have actually found the opposite to be true most times.  There is a big difference between taking more time to do something well and taking more time because something is hard. You can make absolutely anything difficult.  Take something complex and make it easy and you're on to something.


|
YES.  That's why I train a relatively basic style of karate.  The more complex styles offer greater skill, yet at the same time require greater competence & mastery to be effective.  Your statement is also why the sport-fighting methods that rely on athletics are faster & easier to get functional at because your are relying largely on natural physical ability & reactions.
|
OTOH, the traditional karate curriculum requires certain time & effort investment in order to properly forge a the TMA foundation.  Virtually all traditional karate schools will tell you this--as well as seasoned karate practitioners posting all over the internet.  Your final sentence is precisely how I approached my karate training in terms of technique.  I looked closely at the kihon level techniques to understand the traditional karate principles.  Nearly all want to get to the applications and more complex technicals and depend on those, such as Ian Abernathy does on  the expert level.  Wrong in principle.  The karate foundation trumps technicals.
|
The best example of what I am saying is that the kihon kata, which many inside & outside of karate refer to as completely impractical "BABY" level exercises & a waste of time, are actually quite sophisticated in design.  The Okinawan Masters who designed these were genius in that respect, because they simplify the form so you can concentrate on the structural benefits.
|
In closing to your reply, I study Shotokan for karate principles & one of  the best quotes I ever heard was, "There are no shortcuts in Shotokan."  The author, who was a guest commentator on an MMA website, went to say the that getting the foundation body mechanics in Shotokan takes many years of intense practice.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 24, 2015)

Steve said:


> Also, something to remember is that "proficient" and "expert" are not the same thing.  There are degrees of proficiency.  In most cases, if something has a very long path to proficiency (ie, competence), you're probably either learning the wrong thing, or learning the right thing in the wrong way.


|
A good discussion point, but see my prior post.  What is true (IMO) is that the average karate practitioner is doing just what you say.  Hence, the poor results when so many karateka go into competition, MMA, or actual self defense.  I stated in the first thread I posted at three general levels of intensity of karate practice.  Taking your input, layer onto that the dedication & competency of how practitioners in each level are applying the proper training principles.
|
So now an ever better picture of the extremely wide disparity in effectiveness & success among karateka emerges.  This is the reason  I stated that most MMA fighters are going to trounce the karateka competitors in MMA.  IOW, MMA > TMA in what we see in actual practice.  In potential though, TMA > MMA.  Reaching that potential is a steep, very steep mountain to climb.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 24, 2015)

drop bear said:


> That would be easy to test.


|
The real test is the dedication and application of oneself to get to that level ("mental clarity," etc.).
|
Moreover, mental discipline takes mental work in application.  Otherwise the gifted or skilled athletic fighter will absolutely clean your clock.  The Shotokan karate term of "KIME" speaks directly not only to mental focus, but to making choices (not well recognized).


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 24, 2015)

IN SUMMARY ON THIS THREAD:
|
I now think OP knows more than he let on.  The translation of the meaning Heian (and similar kata among the traditional karate styles) is "CALM & PEACEFUL."  The sought for state of mind.


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## jezr74 (Feb 24, 2015)

drop bear said:


> That would be easy to test.





ShotoNoob said:


> |
> The real test is the dedication and application of oneself to get to that level ("mental clarity," etc.).
> |
> Moreover, mental discipline takes mental work in application.  Otherwise the gifted or skilled athletic fighter will absolutely clean your clock.  The Shotokan karate term of "KIME" speaks directly not only to mental focus, but to making choices (not well recognized).



We are still talking about being able to block faster than someone can strike right? That's easily tested... but I suspect that you would need to have an equally trained opponent to have a result that is worth it's salt.

If it be mental clarity, good reflexes or plain luck is not the test imo, but you might attribute it so based on the result.


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## Buka (Feb 24, 2015)

In self defense, if that's what this thread is about (because "fighting" is not a specific term) what we think our mindset will be while fighting - and what we discover our mindset actually is while fighting can be different. Fighting is usually fast, furious and completely unplanned. Ask a fighter. Ask a cop. Ask a predator. Ask a victim. Or someone who just gets caught in the middle.

It might come down to training, will and who you are. But I'll put my money on all of us here. Any old day.


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## drop bear (Feb 24, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> The real test is the dedication and application of oneself to get to that level ("mental clarity," etc.).
> |
> Moreover, mental discipline takes mental work in application.  Otherwise the gifted or skilled athletic fighter will absolutely clean your clock.  The Shotokan karate term of "KIME" speaks directly not only to mental focus, but to making choices (not well recognized).



well not really. Fight an athletic guy and see if you punch faster and block more effectively. Anyone can make the claim. Eating cake gives me superior mental focus. Bit untill i can show it works. What is the point.


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## drop bear (Feb 24, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> So now an ever better picture of the extremely wide disparity in effectiveness & success among karateka emerges. This is the reason I stated that most MMA fighters are going to trounce the karateka competitors in MMA. IOW, MMA > TMA in what we see in actual practice. In potential though, TMA > MMA. Reaching that potential is a steep, very steep mountain to climb.



Ok. But i put it to you that it takes greater mental clarity to fight mma than pretty much any other training. Because there is no out.

How many days a week do you train?


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 25, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> We are still talking about being able to block faster than someone can strike right? That's easily tested... but I suspect that you would need to have an equally trained opponent to have a result that is worth it's salt.
> 
> If it be mental clarity, good reflexes or plain luck is not the test imo, but you might attribute it so based on the result.


|
I concur this is a very good discussion point, thank you.
|
We have 2 golden glove boxers at our dojo.  I've beaten both in in class free sparring, not formal tournaments outside the school.  One is a golden gloves boxer, the other his protege.
|
The first time I fought the protege, the head instructor asked me to help with the proteges upcoming test.  I approached the free sparring as practicing the kihon technique for the test.  The Protege turned the match into a 'tournament' to impress the instructors and the golden glove boxer how well he could do against a non-aggressive acting senior belt--me.  At the outset, the protege beat me up pretty good (STRIKE "pretty" and replace with "really") with his boxing form, using alternating body shots & deft footwork.  A natural athlete with a moderate size and strength advantage.  this went on for about 20-30 seconds.
|
Truth be told, I was flustered, my full ROM kihon karate blocking totally useless against a highly competitive boxing onslaught.  The protege was aggressive yet measured, very impressive with rapid fire & placement.  I was overwhelmed.  I backed up (which I rarely do) to regain my composure since I was at a loss.  So what do you do when your technique fails and you are thrown mentally?  Traditional karate training tells you.
|
First of all, T karate is the art of self defense, I was determined not to be used as a punching bag.  The first tactical thought that popped into my head is that I was decided not to get hit, the old karate maximum of "defense first".  My mind flashed to the Heian forms with their knifehand blocks & posturing stances--as opposed to the closed-fist kihon blocks I had been training.   As the protege moved in for the kill (again), I employed the knife hand blocks in way, let's just say was unconventional.  A little IanA- Picaresque, if you will.  Needless to say I was actively engaging the boxer, leaving the role of a training partner behind.
|
The result was 2-fold.  One, I checked or impeded virtually all (not all) blows.  Two, the nature of the knifehand-block defense (in typical karate stance applied for combat) along with the protege's attack going from unanswered to almost completely frustrated, broke the protege's rhythm.  The protege paused, then moved in again with a right cross.  At that time, I stepped in square on & shot a Right straight punch directly into the chest with enough force to stop the protege dead in his tracks.  Now, I had largely taken the offensive technique & the ability of forward movement--AWAY.
|
Being an aggressive individual, and determined to show the class the worth of prior training in boxing, the protege decided to COME ON STRONG and overpower me.  The moment the protege started a right cross, I immediately stepped forward and executed a standard kihon block, lightly tapping the PUNCHING arm forearm muscles,  A few more punches by the protege which were kihon blocked by me in similar fashion, the protege dropped both arms to the sides and stopped fighting.... basically quit.
|
What in essence did I do?  I had resolved to keep the interchange a training exercise.  My training goal shifted from helping the protege-- to proving that karate defense works against the skilled boxer.  Which at first, was most certainly an open question given my 'punching bag' status. (A) I deflected, impeded & defused the blizzard-of -rapid fire body punches attack with my custom knifehand defense, (B) ENDED the protege'S WORRY FREE forward movement with the tactical equivalent of the boxer's defensive jab, mine a R Straight Punch 2x4 rammed right into the chest @ the move in, and (C) then actively taking away the will to strike using standard kihon karate block form.  My "mental clarity" was directed on shutting the protege down & that's what I did.  I defeated the skilled boxer using karate defense only......
|
I totally dismantled the skilled boxer opponent in a three-step fashion, with kihon karate form (with some advanced license taken) at that..


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## jezr74 (Feb 25, 2015)

I had to look up golden gloves, are you saying that golden gloves is like the equivalent of a black belt? (for level of expertise arguments sake)

Also, he was practicing with you for a test in boxing or karate?

Do you think age plays a significant role in mental clarity? I train with partners a lot older than I am and some a lot younger, I find the older "wiser" partners are much calmer than the younger and are more crafty than forceful, so they keep me on my toes.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 25, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> I had to look up golden gloves, are you saying that golden gloves is like the equivalent of a black belt? (for level of expertise arguments sake)
> 
> Also, he was practicing with you for a test in boxing or karate?
> 
> Do you think age plays a significant role in mental clarity? I train with partners a lot older than I am and some a lot younger, I find the older "wiser" partners are much calmer than the younger and are more crafty than forceful, so they keep me on my toes.


|
Golden gloves boxer is a championship designation, amateur level I believe.  The protege and the golden gloves boxer were late twenties early thirties, younger than me.
|
The protege's upcoming test was for belt-rank, but just like all you (rhetorical) tough competitors, the desire to win was just too much.  Boxers are generally pretty competitive, however in traditional karate, the true competition is with yourself.  Why I don't partake in tournaments.
|
What we had was  the old boxing versus karate competition.  Exactly why the protege decided to box, don't know.  The protege was pretty new as a karate student, a born fighter if you ask me.  A lot of people think karate is for training and boxing is for actual fighting--maybe that's a factor.  We have a 1st degree black-belt at our dojo who mixes boxing & karate and who cleans up at tournaments.  But then again, I'm not at the tournaments to face him down....[smiley]

P.S. ON AGE: The general traditional martial art adage is that the seasoned, older practitioner, though slower in body, is faster in effect (owing to mental development, mind-body unity.)


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> well not really. Fight an athletic guy and see if you punch faster and block more effectively. Anyone can make the claim. Eating cake gives me superior mental focus. Bit untill i can show it works. What is the point.


|
Thanks for the answer, but now we are to the limitations of a blog.  Way too rhetorical response, IMO.  Read my detailed sparring encounter re boxer protege.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok. But i put it to you that it takes greater mental clarity to fight mma than pretty much any other training. Because there is no out.
> 
> How many days a week do you train?


|
There's no "out" in a self defense situation or true kumite.  It's you or the opponent.  That's it.  The competitor with greater "mental clarity" should win in MMA or TMA or self defense.  That's the TMA theory.
|
In true kumite, you demonstrate that you could disable the opponent, but control yourself so that you do not.  It's that exhibition of the ability to control (project) power precisely that makes the demonstration valid.  Not "tag."  Again, why I don't partake in tournaments.
|
Every day is ideal for 1 hour.  2 Hours is better with 3 or 4 good too.  Every other day or so is ok. Less than 3 or 4 times a week and it's hard to forge the traditional karate foundation, IMO.  6 hours a day for actual, formal competition, but it is important not to over train.... just spin wheels.  I like to train 5 days a week as a standard.  Rest & recovery is critical, as traditional karate is a development progression you just can't hurry the process, it kind of takes it's natural course.
|
Why people often speak of the black-belt taking 3-5 years, depending on the level of "mental discipline" you want to attain, 7-10 years for black-belt, IMO.  You can have good black-belts in 3 years, but will probably be sport fighters; 5 years to firmly establish the mental base.  Why (one reason) you don't see a lot of successful traditional karateka in MMA.
|
You know, everybody doesn't have either the discipline or aptitude to be a mental fighter.  So the conventional MMA methods and the sport karate approach are valid for many if not most MMA competitors.
|
You know the boxer protege who I shut down with karate defense only, went on to tell the head instructor how I put up a good fight unlike other students--how I was never able to launch an offense against the boxing assault.  The reason there was no offense was because I purposely decided against offense.  I limited myself to purely defensive strategy. I was trying to prove a hypothesis, not destroy the boxer-protege.  To me, it became a "test-tube" exercise.  The concept obviously flew right by.  Wasn't going anywhere near full power....


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 25, 2015)

"WONDERBOY" THOMPSON VS. BRANDON "RUCKUS"THATCH
|
Will comment over at the Karate for MMA forum when Wonderboy recovers from rib injury.  I think he would have beat Thatch.  Would have been a great fight, Thatch definitely not a walkover.
|
As my posts explain, when the Okinawan Masters denoted the Heian kata to symbol "calm & peaceful," it wasn't just a philosophical whimsy, it was the principal basis for the mental dimension of traditional karate training.


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## BeeBrian (Feb 25, 2015)

A little random info...

Do you guys know about the origin of the Taoist religion?

Once upon a China, some farmers decided to stop being so frustrated about the inevitable winter... So they adopted the philosophy of Wu Wei, which means "non-action".

It's about the emptying of the mind, and having a blank slate, so you can be one with the universe/be in the now/have a center of gravity...

But what if you have reason to be angry? Don't you capitalize on that? If we follow Wu Wei, shouldn't we not suppress that anger and just let it happen?

I'm confused.........

I mean, I've been following that technique in daily life and it seems to work really well. But what about combat?


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## drop bear (Feb 25, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> I had to look up golden gloves, are you saying that golden gloves is like the equivalent of a black belt? (for level of expertise arguments sake)
> 
> Also, he was practicing with you for a test in boxing or karate?
> 
> Do you think age plays a significant role in mental clarity? I train with partners a lot older than I am and some a lot younger, I find the older "wiser" partners are much calmer than the younger and are more crafty than forceful, so they keep me on my toes.



One of our guys is a golden gloves and one a silver. It is an amateur boxing tournament. So you have to be better than a heap of guys on the day. You also do 4 or 5 fights in a knockout competition. It is kind of a big deal in ammy boxing.


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## drop bear (Feb 25, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> There's no "out" in a self defense situation or true kumite. It's you or the opponent. That's it. The competitor with greater "mental clarity" should win in MMA or TMA or self defense. That's the TMA theory.



So if this is true. Great mma fighters have great mental clarity.


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## drop bear (Feb 25, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> You know, everybody doesn't have either the discipline or aptitude to be a mental fighter. So the conventional MMA methods and the sport karate approach are valid for many if not most MMA competitors.



And yet here you assume mma methods do not train mental clarity.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> And yet here you assume mma methods do not train mental clarity.



And yet, you're assuming that your methods are better than those that are specifically geared towards it… besides which, let's not forget that you've specifically stated that such training ins't possible… so to assume that your training methods don't contain it, as you seem completely unfamiliar with the idea, I don't think is such a stretch… do you?


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## Zero (Feb 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok. But i put it to you that it takes greater mental clarity to fight mma than pretty much any other training. Because there is no out.
> 
> How many days a week do you train?


When you say "any other training" do you mean in the context of sport fighting, martial arts or any athletic training in general?  I think you are keeping this in the "competition fighting" realm as that's the context but was not sure...


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## Zero (Feb 26, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> YES.  That's why I train *a relatively basic style of karate*.
> |
> In closing to your reply, _*I study Shotokan for karate principles*_ & one of  the best quotes I ever heard was, "There are no shortcuts in Shotokan."  The author, who was a guest commentator on an MMA website, went to say the that getting the foundation body mechanics in Shotokan takes many years of intense practice.



Sorry ShotoNoob, I find some of what you are saying hard to follow.  You say you study a relatively basic style of karate and then go on to say you study Shotokan for _karate principles_.  Are you saying you don't study in or train the Shotokan techniques and applications in a Shotokan school?  But that you only study and consider the principles of the style?

If it is only the principles, then what actual techniques are you apply and training in?  What is this "basic style of karate" from which you are training actual techniques?  Is this different to Shotokan or the same?

Or are you taking Shotokan principles from a class you attend but then trying to simplify the strikes and techniques yourself?

I would not say Shotokan is a basic style of karate, I have trained in Shotokan schools while on travel and with friends.  I do gojy ryu and to be honest, there are an awful lot of similarities between the two and for obvious reasons!  In addition you reference the "guest commentator" as saying "getting the foundation body mechanics in Shotokan takes many years of intense practice" but then do not go on to refute this in any way.  So I take it you at least agree in part with that?

So can you please re-clarify what it is you are studying in from an overall sense?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2015)

Having been trained in a superior style to all y'all's, I have found that I usually win the fight before I know I am in a fight; so, from that, the best way to win is to do your job well, and your job is to stay safe, Kids!.


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## Transk53 (Feb 26, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Having been trained in a superior style to all y'all's, I have found that I usually win the fight before I know I am in a fight; so, from that, the best way to win is to do your job well, and your job is to stay safe, Kids!.



Not quite true. I trained with Will Riker at Starfleet and have a pugil stick


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> And yet, you're assuming that your methods are better than those that are specifically geared towards it… besides which, let's not forget that you've specifically stated that such training ins't possible… so to assume that your training methods don't contain it, as you seem completely unfamiliar with the idea, I don't think is such a stretch… do you?



Not really in regards to basic mental discipline. Which i think is achieved through doing hard tasks diligently. And not through some sort of specific mental discipline/clarity exercise.


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## Transk53 (Feb 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Not really in regards to basic mental discipline. Which i think is achieved through doing hard tasks diligently. And not through some sort of specific mental discipline/clarity exercise.



Yeah agree. Don't go much further than basic though.


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2015)

Zero said:


> When you say "any other training" do you mean in the context of sport fighting, martial arts or any athletic training in general?  I think you are keeping this in the "competition fighting" realm as that's the context but was not sure...



It would be any athletics where the results mean something. Where people want to make a career out of their sport.


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## Zero (Feb 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It would be any athletics where the results mean something. Where people want to make a career out of their sport.


Wow!  I haven't fought anything like UFC level but I have had quite a few mma fights and competed nationally in karate and regionally in kickboxing.  I agree that when you are in the ring, the focus required is absolute as a momentary lapse you can get KO'd and you are constantly just one guy against another with no other team members to hide behind.  In addition, with mma covering stand up striking, takedown and submission you need to focus on all aspects so the mental burn is big until you get used to that.

However, if you are talking generally I would _very much_ hesitate before going so far as to state "it takes greater mental clarity to fight mma than pretty much any other training. Because there is no out".  Try Formula 1 or freestyle rock climbing if you want to talk about the need for mental clarity and "no out".  MMA, if you mess up you get KO'd (maybe also a bad lasting injury, maybe). F1 or climbing, you mess up, you die and possibly others with you.  There are many other sports and activities that I would wager have more on the line than mma...

Even putting things in a "safe " environment and given you mentioned athletics,  I am not sure the mental focus in an MMA ring is any greater than in an Olympics 100m final?

Mental focus:


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2015)

Zero said:


> Wow!  I haven't fought anything like UFC level but I have had quite a few mma fights and competed nationally in karate and regionally in kickboxing.  I agree that when you are in the ring, the focus required is absolute as a momentary lapse you can get KO'd and you are constantly just one guy against another with no other team members to hide behind.  In addition, with mma covering stand up striking, takedown and submission you need to focus on all aspects so the mental burn is big until you get used to that.
> 
> However, if you are talking generally I would _very much_ hesitate before going so far as to state "it takes greater mental clarity to fight mma than pretty much any other training. Because there is no out".  Try Formula 1 or freestyle rock climbing if you want to talk about the need for mental clarity and "no out".  MMA, if you mess up you get KO'd (maybe also a bad lasting injury, maybe). F1 or climbing, you mess up, you die and possibly others with you.  There are many other sports and activities that I would wager have more on the line than mma...



i don't disagree. But lets take all of those activities done professionally and compare it to karate at what is basically a hobby level.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 26, 2015)

Zero said:


> Sorry ShotoNoob, I find some of what you are saying hard to follow.  You say you study a relatively basic style of karate and then go on to say you study Shotokan for _karate principles_.  Are you saying you don't study in or train the Shotokan techniques and applications in a Shotokan school?  But that you only study and consider the principles of the style?


|
You've said alot, covered a lot.  I'll try to do justice.
|
Personally, I don't care for the Shotokan style of karate, how most practice it.  It has some attributes i find incomparable with my aptitudes and understanding.  So no, I don't practice Shotokan, inside or outside of a school.  You final sentence is correct in how I approach & use Shotokan.



Zero said:


> If it is only the principles, then what actual techniques are you apply and training in?  What is this "basic style of karate" from which you are training actual techniques?  Is this different to Shotokan or the same?


|
My base karate style, the actual techniques, is an offshoot of Shotokan karate.  So for discussion, I can use Shotokan for most purposes.  My traditional karate style shares most of the same strengths & weaknesses of the Ginchin Funakoshi Shotokan, including some of the later popularized evolutions of Shotokan.



Zero said:


> Or are you taking Shotokan principles from a class you attend but then trying to simplify the strikes and techniques yourself?


|
NO.
|
IMO, the techniques are the same level of complexity.


Zero said:


> I would not say Shotokan is a basic style of karate, I have trained in Shotokan schools while on travel and with friends.  I do gojy ryu and to be honest, there are an awful lot of similarities between the two and for obvious reasons!  In addition you reference the "guest commentator" as saying "getting the foundation body mechanics in Shotokan takes many years of intense practice" but then do not go on to refute this in any way.  So I take it you at least agree in part with that?
> 
> So can you please re-clarify what it is you are studying in from an overall sense?


|
Yes, this is a very key clarification that is needed.  Also very, very important for those in the MMA arena who want to utilize the traditional karate style.  << I think this the best forum around willing to openly entertain the MMA vs. TMA style issue / controversy >>.
|
My overall view of Shotokan is that it is Karate-Do, which focuses more on the foundation skills and emphasizes physical fitness, later mental discipline.  The Okinawan karates, such as Gojy Ryu are Karate-Jutsu, which focus, in addition to foundation, on more actual fighting, practical martial applications.  I also feel the traditional karate base is stronger in Gojy in many areas.  Nonetheless, Shotokan done true to principles can make you very, damn strong, certainly strong enough to take all but the very elitist in MMA.  By MMA elite, I mean the 1 in 1 million like John Jones.  I would love to see Jon Jones go up against a true Shotokan Master.
|
Furthemore, careful readings of my posts will reveal is that personal development of the foundational skills of traditional karate, which include a very well rounded physical fitness, and particularly the "mental state of mind," the mental discipline of mind-body unity, is quite sophisticated & complicated internal process.  Since Shotokan strives to do so, which is common across all styles of traditional karate, the outward form of Shotokan may be more physically "simple," and more physically oriented, however, the internal development process is still quite complicated & involved.  Shotokan also goes into a lot of detail on technique, but much of that detail is on how to do existing technique or additional technique of the same "basic' form.
|
And so you're still talking the 3-5 years for Shotokan black-belt, as a generalization.  Developing the foundational skills takes a forging process because of the sophisticated nature of that process, as I've described.  The simpler form is basically in the outward construction & execution of the physical technique.  And there's still some relative complexity there, additional applications as I've noted.
|
That's my view of Shotokan.  I think there's lots to criticize about Shotokan, but any nitwit can try & find fault.  Therefore, I understand Shotokan done right to be very powerful and those who underestimate Shotokan most often do not understand what traditional karate is trying to accomplish.  Shotokan is popular for a reason in that it appeals to many people's aptitudes & practicality in training.
|
So though I personally would never choose Shotokan karate for myself, do I endorse it,? HECK YA!!!!
|
P.S. Needless to say, the type of MMA fighter you typically will see at the big name MMA schools would never, ever get out of the box in my traditional karate program.  They wouldn't pay attention to me either.  Those MMA schools are doing a good job for many competitors on the level they want to aspire to.  The MMA schools who say they've come up with something better, more modern.... sorry the Okinawan Masters know better, in my experience.


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## Zero (Feb 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> i don't disagree. But lets take all of those activities done professionally and compare it to karate at what is basically a hobby level.


Oh, hobbyhorse karate, yeah, then absolutely agree (on most fronts...some hobbyists/enthusiasts can be pretty serious and hard core, accomplished fighters...)


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## Spinedoc (Feb 26, 2015)

I think the concepts of Zanshin and Mushin to be so fundamentally necessary to the study of martial arts that I don't really understand how people can call themselves martial artists without it.

If all you want to do is learn how to fight...fine....I could care less about that and that holds absolutely no interest for me. I am interested in much deeper/higher pursuits.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Not really in regards to basic mental discipline. Which i think is achieved through doing hard tasks diligently. And not through some sort of specific mental discipline/clarity exercise.


|
Exactly right in terms of the different concepts (TMA vs. MMA-sport)  on how to approach effective martial training.
|
And it's fighting that requires mental focus, the question as I believe Chris Parker wrote, is how you best go about attaining that.  The Okinawan Masters tell us how to do that via the traditional karate model.  Now, we all make a decision on conventional MMA vs. TMA (karate) vs. a cross-training of the two poles--sport karate or individual mixture, say boxing & karate.  Like I say we have a 1st degree black-belt at our dojo who has been very, very successful at official karate tournaments (IMU, mostly limited to our style) with the latter boxing-karate mixture.  That's the path he's chosen and it's proven successful in the venue in which he's competing, that's a fact.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 26, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Exactly right in terms of the different concepts (TMA vs. MMA-sport)  on how to approach effective martial training.


I
To quote myself, and refer to my Boxer-Golden Gloves Protege Sparring Match Story, that's how I got picked on by the Protege because me  walking around advocating a "calm & peaceful, & tranquil"  behavioral mentality in a dojo stocked with aggressive sporting students; well that's viewed by them as sissy, philosophical musings of a wannabe karate fighter (George Takei didn't some intelligent poster say,?).  When the reality it's the other way around......................................................................................................................................................................[super smiley].


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## Blindside (Feb 26, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> I think the concepts of Zanshin and Mushin to be so fundamentally necessary to the study of martial arts that I don't really understand how people can call themselves martial artists without it.
> 
> If all you want to do is learn how to fight...fine....I could care less about that and that holds absolutely no interest for me. I am interested in much deeper/higher pursuits.


 
Whether you call them this or not, but zanshin and mushin are pretty universal concepts, I think any high level atheletic endeavor will strive to achieve both it isn't just a martial arts thing.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 26, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> I think the concepts of Zanshin and Mushin to be so fundamentally necessary to the study of martial arts that I don't really understand how people can call themselves martial artists without it.


|
>> Very Okinawan Karate Mastery of you.... as specifically set forth in the Shotokan karate curriculum....  What I would add these are the "mental clarity" principles embedded in the traditional training regimen.  Tapping into them is purely an individual effort.  Again, therein lies the requirement to seriously think about what you are doing.
|
This is the drawback to the present day convention of Kyokushin's excessive full contact kumite training that so many Kyo advocates claim builds physical & mental toughness.  The constant battering also detracts from the standard training environment under traditional karate per se, where the body is conditioned more for physical fitness which then supports and enhances mental development without the distraction of physical threat & body injury.  Shotokan practice makes abundantly clear this principle......thanks to Gichin Funakoshi the academic that he was....
|
We can learn from all styles, and all perspective,s that's my "Elvis has left the building..." approach....


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 26, 2015)

Blindside said:


> Whether you call them this or not, but zanshin and mushin are pretty universal concepts, I think any high level athletic endeavor will strive to achieve both it isn't just a martial arts thing.


|
I disagree on the athletics.  A prime example would be to listen to professional MMA competitors or even the Greg Jackson-type interviews and then compare that to the TMA posts on this forum..... 
|
Moreover, I don't need a corner-man, I'm my own corner man.  In fact, I'll tell a corner man what's to be done.
|
I think the sport fighting MMA conventional method is good.  Simply, it's for each of us to each to decide--but then live with your decision in competition, the result.


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2015)

Zero said:


> Oh, hobbyhorse karate, yeah, then absolutely agree (on most fronts...some hobbyists/enthusiasts can be pretty serious and hard core, accomplished fighters...)



Yeah but take into account we are looking ar three months full time prep for a fifteen minute competition.

Against someone who is doing the same. 

It becomes an arms race to a certain degree.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Not really in regards to basic mental discipline. Which i think is achieved through doing hard tasks diligently. And not through some sort of specific mental discipline/clarity exercise.



Huh?

Honestly, I'm having a hard time following exactly what you're responding to here… "not really" what? You're "not really" assuming your methods are better, despite not actually having any? You "don't really" think that such training isn't possible? Or "not really", it's not such a stretch to think that, as you seem completely unfamiliar with the idea of mental state training (as seen in traditional systems), that you don't actually have any such methods?

I mean… here's the build up to your post… 



drop bear said:


> And yet here you assume mma methods do not train mental clarity.





Chris Parker said:


> And yet, you're assuming that your methods are better than those that are specifically geared towards it… besides which, let's not forget that you've specifically stated that such training ins't possible… so to assume that your training methods don't contain it, as you seem completely unfamiliar with the idea, I don't think is such a stretch… do you?



So… which is it? "Not really in regards to basic mental discipline"… without context, I don't quite get what you're saying here… 

But, to address the second part ("… mental discipline. Which i think is achieved through doing hard tasks diligently. And not through some sort of specific mental discipline/clarity exercise.")… frankly, all that tells me is that you really don't have the first idea what we're talking about. Yes, there are specific training exercises and methods for addressing mind-set. No, mental discipline isn't really what we're talking about (it's part of it, but really quite a fair bit below the level we're discussing)… that's, as you say, just part and parcel of doing anything with dedication. What we're talking about is developing specific mind-sets… not just "being disciplined". Each art has it's own specific mindset, for example… this is far more prominent in the classical systems, when you really look at them for the record. The "mind-set" of Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu is different to the mindset of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, which is different to the mindset of Hontai Yoshin Ryu, which is different to the mindset of Muso Shinden Ryu, and so on and so forth. Is there cross-over? Absolutely. But they are all different, in their own way, with differing emphasis' in different arts.

This is what we've been saying… the base level approach to mental training you're talking about isn't really anything like actual mental training as addressed in classical systems.


----------



## Zero (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but take into account we are looking ar three months full time prep for a fifteen minute competition.
> 
> Against someone who is doing the same.
> 
> It becomes an arms race to a certain degree.


Yes, I do agree there in the most part.  That's why I don't compete that often now, it takes so long for me to get to that level of preparedness and fight fitness, I have had several previous fight build ups ruined by getting slammed by work in the lead up to a tournament, when you have a full time demanding job you can't match it for long with guys putting in 3 or 4 or more hours a day on their fighting and conditioning.  It's like that with anything.


----------



## Zero (Feb 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I disagree on the athletics.  A prime example would be to listen to professional MMA competitors or even the Greg Jackson-type interviews and then compare that to the TMA posts on this forum.....



I am not sure how much research you have done or personal experience you have regarding athletics, or other sporting activities, to be disagreeing there and claiming such.  Top, and even intermediate athletics, has a high degree of mental and psychological work that is done as part of the training.  For a long time now a lot of the commercial, competitive sports world has placed emphasis on this also.  Name an NBL or major league team that doesn't have a dedicated sports psychologist as part of their get-up?

From your sentence, I was not sure if you were comparing mma to all athletics or just to TMA as you refer to both...??



ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Moreover, I don't need a corner-man, I'm my own corner man.  In fact, I'll tell a corner man what's to be done.


This is just crazy talk from someone who has never had a serious competitive fight, sorry to put it like that but that is exactly how this comes across...you need a corner man (or team), especially when you are injured or tiring, to re-focus you, inform you about what you are forgetting or not focusing on and let you know what you are missing re your opponent, what to avoid, angles to work, weaknesses to exploit (either during the fight, if rules allow, or when you are in the corner between rounds).
OK, so you don't _need_ one but to say you are your own corner man...well, ok, maybe you are greater and more Omni-aware than all the world champions that have gone before you...but how likely is that?


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Huh?
> 
> Honestly, I'm having a hard time following exactly what you're responding to here… "not really" what? You're "not really" assuming your methods are better, despite not actually having any? You "don't really" think that such training isn't possible? Or "not really", it's not such a stretch to think that, as you seem completely unfamiliar with the idea of mental state training (as seen in traditional systems), that you don't actually have any such methods?
> 
> ...



What system of mindset training do you think military's use?


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Zero said:


> This is just crazy talk from someone who has never had a serious competitive fight, sorry to put it like that but that is exactly how this comes across...you need a corner man (or team), especially when you are injured or tiring, to re-focus you, inform you about what you are forgetting or not focusing on and let you know what you are missing re your opponent, what to avoid, angles to work, weaknesses to exploit (either during the fight, if rules allow, or when you are in the corner between rounds).
> OK, so you don't _need_ one but to say you are your own corner man...well, ok, maybe you are greater and more Omni-aware than all the world champions that have gone before you...but how likely is that?


more importantly you would have to jump out and grab your own little stool. Which would be incredibly irritating.


----------



## Chris Parker (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> What system of mindset training do you think military's use?



Here's a mindbender for you… military and martial arts are far from the same thing… 

To that end, what facet of the military are you talking about? Are you talking about basic training? Or something else? The answer will change depending on what you mean…


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Here's a mindbender for you… military and martial arts are far from the same thing…
> 
> To that end, what facet of the military are you talking about? Are you talking about basic training? Or something else? The answer will change depending on what you mean…


On the topic of mindset. How are they different?

Basic training.


----------



## Chris Parker (Feb 27, 2015)

Look to the aims and purpose of each to give some insight into the mindset required and intended. When looking at basic training, it is exactly that… basic training. The aim is not to make the soldier a top-level warrior, or even a high level fighting machine… it's to instill basic skills (for the military), and to create a person who will follow orders. That mentality is really quite removed from martial arts training… which, classically, was geared more towards the leaders of the soldiers, rather than the soldiers themselves.


----------



## Danny T (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> i don't disagree. But lets take all of those activities done professionally and compare it to karate at what is basically a hobby level.


There are far more in what is known as mma that are hobby level than those who are fighters. Means nothing. There are many good karate fighters. Means nothing. There are a huge amount of wantabees in the mma world. That is why there are now so many mma gyms. Good money in it and that is where the mental clarity is.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Danny T said:


> There are far more in what is known as mma that are hobby level than those who are fighters. Means nothing. There are many good karate fighters. Means nothing. There are a huge amount of wantabees in the mma world. That is why there are now so many mma gyms. Good money in it and that is where the mental clarity is.



Yes and training at a hobby level regardless of the system generally will take less discipline than someone who is fight training. I train at a hobby level. And have less discipline than someone who is fight training.

And personally I believe that doing some sort of mindset training would not give me greater discipline than someone who is fight training.


----------



## Chris Parker (Feb 27, 2015)

It's not about discipline, though… that's where you're grasping the wrong end of things.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Look to the aims and purpose of each to give some insight into the mindset required and intended. When looking at basic training, it is exactly that… basic training. The aim is not to make the soldier a top-level warrior, or even a high level fighting machine… it's to instill basic skills (for the military), and to create a person who will follow orders. That mentality is really quite removed from martial arts training… which, classically, was geared more towards the leaders of the soldiers, rather than the soldiers themselves.



The army does have a website you know. And it disagrees with you.
1st Recruit Training Battalion - Australian Army


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> It's not about discipline, though… that's where you're grasping the wrong end of things.



What is it about?


----------



## Chris Parker (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The army does have a website you know. And it disagrees with you.
> 1st Recruit Training Battalion - Australian Army



Yeah… there's nothing there that disagrees with me, you know. "Mental preparedness" is a different idea to what we're talking about… and is more in line with being mentally ready to follow the orders.



drop bear said:


> What is it about?



That has been touched upon since the beginning of the thread, and you haven't picked up on any of it. But, to placate you, it's about developing a specific (to the system) mindset, incorporating tactical preferences, non-emotional engagement, superior clarity of aim, and a whole bunch of intangibles that are specific to the art itself. The mindset desired for my Iai training is different to my jujutsu training… which differs from ryu-ha to ryu-ha… and is different again to the kenjutsu systems I do (which are, in turn, different to each other). What makes them different? Well, that's the intangible… but to reduce it all down to "discipline" is to miss the point. Discipline is general… mindsets (for martial arts) are specific.


----------



## Spinedoc (Feb 27, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah… there's nothing there that disagrees with me, you know. "Mental preparedness" is a different idea to what we're talking about… and is more in line with being mentally ready to follow the orders.
> 
> 
> 
> That has been touched upon since the beginning of the thread, and you haven't picked up on any of it. But, to placate you, it's about developing a specific (to the system) mindset, incorporating tactical preferences, non-emotional engagement, superior clarity of aim, and a whole bunch of intangibles that are specific to the art itself. The mindset desired for my Iai training is different to my jujutsu training… which differs from ryu-ha to ryu-ha… and is different again to the kenjutsu systems I do (which are, in turn, different to each other). What makes them different? Well, that's the intangible… but to reduce it all down to "discipline" is to miss the point. Discipline is general… mindsets (for martial arts) are specific.



Exactly, I've found that the mindset for Aikido is wildly different then then one for Muso Shinden Ryu. In fact, it might be one of the biggest contrasts between the two arts.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah… there's nothing there that disagrees with me, you know. "Mental preparedness" is a different idea to what we're talking about… and is more in line with being mentally ready to follow the orders.



you said it is not designed to create a top level warrior. The army said is is designed to create an exceptional Australian soldier.

you said it is designed to create someone who follows orders. The army said it is to create someone who shows initiative.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah… there's nothing there that disagrees with me, you know. "Mental preparedness" is a different idea to what we're talking about… and is more in line with being mentally ready to follow the orders.
> 
> 
> 
> That has been touched upon since the beginning of the thread, and you haven't picked up on any of it. But, to placate you, it's about developing a specific (to the system) mindset, incorporating tactical preferences, non-emotional engagement, superior clarity of aim, and a whole bunch of intangibles that are specific to the art itself. The mindset desired for my Iai training is different to my jujutsu training… which differs from ryu-ha to ryu-ha… and is different again to the kenjutsu systems I do (which are, in turn, different to each other). What makes them different? Well, that's the intangible… but to reduce it all down to "discipline" is to miss the point. Discipline is general… mindsets (for martial arts) are specific.



reducing it to discipline is refining the idea to a workable idea rather than mess around with intangibles.

I mean we need to create a mindset that the person is going to fight back hard and smart. You don't need specialist training. You just make their training hard and mentality challenging.

I think you are over cooking this.


----------



## Spinedoc (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> you said it is not designed to create a top level warrior. The army said is is designed to create an exceptional Australian soldier.
> 
> you said it is designed to create someone who follows orders. The army said it is to create someone who shows initiative.



Only to provide some perspective regarding the military, the military does not want anyone who shows initiative beyond following and implementing orders. When they say initiative, they mean, I've given you an order, you need to show some iniative in completing it. Independent thinking is not really encouraged in any military because it is a threat to unit cohesion, discipline, and morale. Speaking as a former navy corpsman who served a while ago. Semper Fi.

Mike


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> Only to provide some perspective regarding the military, the military does not want anyone who shows initiative beyond following and implementing orders. When they say initiative, they mean, I've given you an order, you need to show some iniative in completing it. Independent thinking is not really encouraged in any military because it is a threat to unit cohesion, discipline, and morale. Speaking as a former navy corpsman who served a while ago. Semper Fi.
> 
> Mike



So which mindset is better in a fight. The independent thinking martial artist or the follow orders soldier?


----------



## Transk53 (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So which mindset is better in a fight. The independent thinking martial artist or the follow orders soldier?



Two different disciplines bear. Cmon man!


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Two different disciplines bear. Cmon man!



Not at all. fighting mentality is what we are discussing. 

And fighting mentality is a discipline a soldier would be expected to know.

So if they are different why is that?


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> Only to provide some perspective regarding the military, the military does not want anyone who shows initiative beyond following and implementing orders. When they say initiative, they mean, I've given you an order, you need to show some iniative in completing it. Independent thinking is not really encouraged in any military because it is a threat to unit cohesion, discipline, and morale. Speaking as a former navy corpsman who served a while ago. Semper Fi.
> 
> Mike



I did some time in the reserves. I would say the emphasis was on professionalism. And that was kind of finding the balance between individualism ant following orders.


----------



## Transk53 (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Not at all. fighting mentality is what we are discussing.
> 
> And fighting mentality is a discipline a soldier would be expected to know.
> 
> So if they are different why is that?



Soldiers operate in teams across the board. Different mentality.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Soldiers operate in teams across the board. Different mentality.



do you operate in a team? I certainly do wherever possible.  And you you want Mr individual mindset who is achieving some sort of greater mental clarity. Or do you want a guy who will do what he is told"


----------



## Danny T (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yes and training at a hobby level regardless of the system generally will take less discipline than someone who is fight training. I train at a hobby level. And have less discipline than someone who is fight training.
> 
> And personally I believe that doing some sort of mindset training would not give me greater discipline than someone who is fight training.


Mental clarity and discipline are not the same thing.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 27, 2015)

Soldiers here are taught to give and take orders, they are taught to lead as well as follow. The reasoning here is that if you can't take orders you can't give them. Soldiers here are also trained to a standard two ranks about themselves so they are always ready to take over command if necessary. Imitative in the military means doing what they are trained to without necessarily being ordered to not whatever they fancy.
The military don't have a 'fighting mentality' as such, it's not as simple as that. They don't fight without a purpose, there is a 'mission' they have to fulfil so fighting becomes incidentally to carrying out that mission. The fighting part they have trained for, carrying out endless drills during training, it becomes instinctive so they don't actually think about it. Fighting is a means to an end not the end, so the thoughts are always on the target not the fighting. They do have an aggressive mentality which may be taken for a fighting mentality I suppose.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Mental clarity and discipline are not the same thing.



ok how are you defining the difference?


----------



## ShotoNoob (Feb 27, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> ...This is what we've been saying… the base level approach to mental training you're talking about isn't really anything like actual mental training as addressed in classical systems.


|
I WOULD QUALIFY THIS AS YOU MIGHT EXPECT, THIS IS ESSENTIALLY MY THESIS....YES.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)




----------



## ShotoNoob (Feb 27, 2015)

Zero said:


> From your sentence, I was not sure if you were comparing mma to all athletics or just to TMA as you refer to both...??


|
I consider MMA a sport, i.e., a subset of all sports activity as a generalization.


Zero said:


> I am not sure how much research you have done or personal experience you have regarding athletics, or other sporting activities, to be disagreeing there and claiming such.  Top, and even intermediate athletics, has a high degree of mental and psychological work that is done as part of the training.  For a long time now a lot of the commercial, competitive sports world has placed emphasis on this also.  Name an NBL or major league team that doesn't have a dedicated sports psychologist as part of their get-up?


|
|Life experience and empirical experience / observations  in the dojo.  Professional sport training vs. non-such aside, you have to take the detailed information I've posted and see if you come to believe that what I've advocated matches the Okinawan Masters teachings.
|
I really like how you discuss the issue and bring out differing viewpoint to mine.  Your personal comparison to the Okinawan Master's teaching is how you yourself come to grips with the 'truth.'



Zero said:


> This is just crazy talk from someone who has never had a serious competitive fight, sorry to put it like that but that is exactly how this comes across...you need a corner man (or team), especially when you are injured or tiring, to re-focus you, inform you about what you are forgetting or not focusing on and let you know what you are missing re your opponent, what to avoid, angles to work, weaknesses to exploit (either during the fight, if rules allow, or when you are in the corner between rounds)


.
|
What makes you think I haven't been challenged in my life or found myself in a self-defense situation with a physically superior opponent?  I've already posted on this.  One of the opponents where the 2 students (@ dojo) were challenging me  (LIKE YOU) was a officer [Captain?] in charge of a platoon of military police where they train professionally? for both  combative & law enforcement real life situations.
|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The concept of a corner man is of course gospel in the sport fighting world, especially including MMA.  And of course a corner man can be of benefit.  Try not to challenge me with obvious.  What I said is that I PERSONALLY don't need a corner man and I explained my philosophy on the instructor role in earlier posts.  Traditional martial arts is about individual development, not the team dictating your success.  The latter is sports....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
If we are in kumite competing against one another, and you think you will benefit from having a coach yelling instructions to you as I smash you in the face so fast you don't have time to react.... you are welcome to a corner man.  As between 'rounds' my aim is you never get to round 2.  If you don't understand the traditional karate foundation and how to apply it in kumite, IMO, the wrong time to learn in the middle of a competition.  It's not my corner man against your corner man in kumite. See YT for example, say Shotokan.
|
In traditional karate, where fights are won or lost in fractions of a second, all the thinking is solely up to you.  In sports like MMA where we dance around in the Thai clinch for 30 seconds where neither opponent know how to break the stalemate, sure yell over to the corner man for the solution--since you clearly aren't prepared to do it on your own....
|
The Greg Jackson's of the world have made fame & fortune from your approach, and with good results.  My approach is Greg Jackson's opponent reliance on Greg Jackson is going to be a huge weakness for the Greg Jackson 'team competitor,' because I already know--by my traditional karate training--the bread of my tactical expertise backed by the depth & sophistication of the traditional karate foundation--what needs to be done.  the simple primal question is can I or can't i do it?
|


Zero said:


> OK, so you don't _need_ one but to say you are your own corner man...well, ok, maybe you are greater and more Omni-aware than all the world champions that have gone before you...but how likely is that?


|
I realize this is a forum where members like to socialize.  Since you can't win on the issues, you talk your way to victory by talking down your opponent.  How typical pre-fight MMA interview-like.  Note how you have, at the end, also appointed yourself as the "referee.'  Silly.  Might get an interview with some MMA schools though, grant you that.....  Is that your agenda?


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> If we are in kumite competing against one another, and you think you will benefit from having a coach yelling instructions to you as I smash you in the face so fast you don't have time to react.... you are welcome to a corner man. As between 'rounds' my aim is you never get to round 2. If you don't understand the traditional karate foundation and how to apply it in kumite, IMO, the wrong time to learn in the middle of a competition. It's not my corner man against your corner man in kumite.



By the way when you asked why people think you haven't been in a serious fight. 

Here you are working on the principle you are better in basically every way to your opponent.

There are very few fighters who have had all the advantages and have fought quality guys.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 27, 2015)

"State of Mind" by the Royal Marine Commandos 
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/custom/navy/trainingtool.html


----------



## ShotoNoob (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> By the way when you asked why people think you haven't been in a serious fight.
> 
> Here you are working on the principle you are better in basically every way to your opponent.
> 
> There are very few fighters who have had all the advantages and have fought quality guys.


|
How are you not sure you aren't  projecting your own desire to be no. 1?
|
In traditional karate we strive for the principles that provide us the skills to be better.  I've gotten better.
|
I've got a very good track record in kumite @ the dojo & among dojos in my area, including against other karate instructors & tournament competitors (@ area dojos).
|
Truth be told, I haven't lost more, because the really good TMAs in my area (a small group) are of also of like mind to me.  We don't waste time with  a lot of free sparring.  These guys are confident in their accomplishments and don't see the PERSONAL need to challenge another serious practitioner such as myself.  So my kumite record is biased toward success in that regard.
|
You know on the internet, there used to be a very good personal journal of the Oyama karate official, Shigeru Oyama-I believe, who was sent by the founder to America.  I can't find the journal anymore.  Anyway, a couple of his chapters deal with actual kumite and and his work as a bouncer to support himself financially.  The school was owned by an American, who when he laid eyes on the non-nondescript looking Japanese black-belt of average height tfor a japanese, slim build, say an MMA lightweight,  the school owner was pretty disgusted.  The students at the school also chortled their disbelief & disrespect (as have some here), including disregarding his instruction.  It was the same at the bar he bounced for.
|
As you know, the Kyo guys go full contact, no problem.  So he tells how he did just that to straighten out the American owner, the  students, and the bullies (bigger,strong, aggressive)  at the bar.  His technique & tactics he described was not all that complicated, however, he had the "mental clarity" foundation, as well as getting himself in great shape with a lot of pushups, situps, 100s and 100s of kihon exercises. You should try it sometime, might get similar results to him basically wiping the floor against all challengers.
|
No one is invincible.  What one can do is strive to be the best-prepared.


----------



## Transk53 (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> do you operate in a team? I certainly do wherever possible.  And you you want Mr individual mindset who is achieving some sort of greater mental clarity. Or do you want a guy who will do what he is told"



I doubt you could comprehend that.


----------



## Transk53 (Feb 27, 2015)

A bit peeved I could jumped on here, oh well


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> How are you not sure you aren't  projecting your own desire to be no. 1?
> |
> In traditional karate we strive for the principles that provide us the skills to be better.  I've gotten better.
> ...



Lets look back. You are so fast you are unblockable while also having such good defence that you are also un hitable. Winning fights in seconds rather than minutes. And having such great mental clarity that having Greg Jackson in your corner would be more of a hindrance than an advantage.

If you were any harder you would rust.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> I doubt you could comprehend that.



Didn't answer the question and trying to distract.

Where do you stand. Is the military style mind set better or the Chris parker style better.

You claim they are different skill sets. But they really are not.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Lets look back. You are so fast you are unblockable while also having such good defence that you are also un hitable. Winning fights in seconds rather than minutes. And having such great mental clarity that having Greg Jackson in your corner would be more of a hindrance than an advantage.
> 
> If you were any harder you would rust.


|
You need Greg Jackson in your corner.  He makes you harder than rust.  I get it....  My bad.....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Lets look back. You are so fast you are unblockable while also having such good defence that you are also un hitable. Winning fights in seconds rather than minutes. And having such great mental clarity that having Greg Jackson in your corner would be more of a hindrance than an advantage.
> 
> If you were any harder you would rust.


|
Ok, let's say I'm having a bad day.  I would want Shai Hulud in my corner rather than Greg Jackson.  Shai's only a "Green Belt" @ MT, and Greg Jackson is the MMA MANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.  GJ's got fame & fortune while I'm scrabbling to sign up anyone for our karate/MMA class.
|
You've exposed the fraud....Rusty....


----------



## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Ok, let's say I'm having a bad day.  I would want Shai Hulud in my corner rather than Greg Jackson.  Shai's only a "Green Belt" @ MT, and Greg Jackson is the MMA MANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.  He's got fame & fortune while I'm scrabbling to sign up anyone for our karate/MMA class.
> |
> You've exposed the fraud....Rusty....



So you are not considering the idea that Greg Jackson is an outright better trainer than you?

Is this a mental clarity thing?


----------



## ShotoNoob (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So you are not considering the idea that Greg Jackson is an outright better trainer than you?
> 
> Is this a mental clarity thing?


|
Bye.


----------



## Danny T (Feb 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> ok how are you defining the difference?


Mental clarity is a state of emotional and psychological well-being in which an individual is capable of using his/her cognitive and emotional capabilities for the situation they are presented with.

Discipline is training to do something by controlling your behavior or the manner by which it is done.


----------



## Chris Parker (Feb 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> you said it is not designed to create a top level warrior. The army said is is designed to create an exceptional Australian soldier.



Er… soldier… warrior… not the same thing in this context… 



drop bear said:


> you said it is designed to create someone who follows orders. The army said it is to create someone who shows initiative.



Yeah… because on the promo material they're going to say that they want mindless followers… you do get how advertising works, yeah? Highlight the appealing and all that… of course, the most important part is where they say they want an exceptional soldier… so understanding what that means first is kinda key… 



drop bear said:


> reducing it to discipline is refining the idea to a workable idea rather than mess around with intangibles.



No, that's reducing the idea to something you feel you can grasp… which leaves you missing pretty much everything, really.



drop bear said:


> I mean we need to create a mindset that the person is going to fight back hard and smart. You don't need specialist training. You just make their training hard and mentality challenging.



Again, not really what's being discussed… 



drop bear said:


> I think you are over cooking this.



And I think you're trying to argue something you have no real exposure to.



drop bear said:


> So which mindset is better in a fight. The independent thinking martial artist or the follow orders soldier?



Well, that's a pretty vague question… what kind of fight? What context? Who's involved? What's the reason for it? Frankly, either… depending on what's required.



drop bear said:


> Not at all. fighting mentality is what we are discussing.



Not entirely, no, we're not. We've moved from that to mindset training, and what that means within different systems, as well as whether or not it plays a major role.



drop bear said:


> And fighting mentality is a discipline a soldier would be expected to know.



Within their context, yeah… but that's not the same thing as martial mindset as trained in a number of arts.



drop bear said:


> So if they are different why is that?



I worry that you would ask that, honestly.



drop bear said:


> do you operate in a team? I certainly do wherever possible.  And you you want Mr individual mindset who is achieving some sort of greater mental clarity. Or do you want a guy who will do what he is told"



As with the rest, it depends.



drop bear said:


> Didn't answer the question and trying to distract.
> 
> Where do you stand. Is the military style mind set better or the Chris parker style better.
> 
> You claim they are different skill sets. But they really are not.



Yeah, they really, really are. Neither are really "better", except in their context.



Danny T said:


> Mental clarity is a state of emotional and psychological well-being in which an individual is capable of using his/her cognitive and emotional capabilities for the situation they are presented with.
> 
> Discipline is training to do something by controlling your behavior or the manner by which it is done.



Nice. I like that.

On the topic, here's a recent blog post on mindset (well, one aspect of it), as trained in Japanese martial arts: The Budo Bum States Of Mind Mushin


----------



## drop bear (Feb 28, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah… because on the promo material they're going to say that they want mindless followers… you do get how advertising works, yeah? Highlight the appealing and all that… of course, the most important part is where they say they want an exceptional soldier… so understanding what that means first is kinda key…



So the army website is wrong and you are right?

you cant sell that to anybody sorry.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 28, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Er… soldier… warrior… not the same thing in this context…



Yrs it is.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 28, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> No, that's reducing the idea to something you feel you can grasp… which leaves you missing pretty much everything, really



Reducing the system to something that people who fight can use. And that people who do fight use.

If nobody uses your system or understands it. It is kind of a pointless exercise. Even if it had relevance. Which so far you haven't shown.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 28, 2015)

Bringing soldiers into this argument is actually to misunderstand what soldiers do. They, well ours at least, aren't mindlessly following orders. They have a job to do and are trained to do it, it's really as simple as that. 'Fighting mind set', well not exactly, they are gaol orientated, fighting is a part more often than not of reaching that gaol so they do so as professionals. More important than a 'fighting mind set' is a supreme confidence in their skills and in their comrades, this enables them to perform to the best of their ability. So any arguments about soldiers and this OP is a little redundant to my mind.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 28, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Within their context, yeah… but that's not the same thing as martial mindset as trained in a number of arts.



And here is the point of it you may have a martial mindset. But there is no link to it helping you in a fight. Which makes that mindset only relevant to your martial art.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 28, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Bringing soldiers into this argument is actually to misunderstand what soldiers do. They, well ours at least, aren't mindlessly following orders. They have a job to do and are trained to do it, it's really as simple as that. 'Fighting mind set', well not exactly, they are gaol orientated, fighting is a part more often than not of reaching that gaol so they do so as professionals. More important than a 'fighting mind set' is a supreme confidence in their skills and in their comrades, this enables them to perform to the best of their ability. So any arguments about soldiers and this OP is a little redundant to my mind.



My argument is that the goal orientation the professionalism and confidence is a fighting mindset. Rather than achieving some mystical state of enlightened fight readiness through specialized training.


----------



## seasoned (Feb 28, 2015)

*Folks, lets keep the conversation polite. Bickering back and forth can only lead to points violations down the road if left unchecked. *
*Thanks in advance for your cooperation.   *


----------



## Transk53 (Feb 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Didn't answer the question and trying to distract.
> 
> Where do you stand. Is the military style mind set better or the Chris parker style better.
> 
> You claim they are different skill sets. But they really are not.



No not really. Neither  Both are irrelevant as to what you originally asked.


----------



## Transk53 (Feb 28, 2015)

seasoned said:


> *Folks, lets keep the conversation polite. Bickering back and forth can only lead to points violations down the road if left unchecked. *
> *Thanks in advance for your cooperation.   *



Just a bit of banter between me and drop bear. That it is how I intend anyway


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 28, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> No not really. Neither  Both are irrelevant as to what you originally asked.



I agree, being a soldier is a professional career, which like any profession is trained for. Long gone are the days of instant obedience and 'over the top'. These days the military is as likely to be doing humanitarian and peace keeping duties as fighting wars. When they do fight wars the infantry soldier is no longer the 'grunt' on the ground, the job is very specialised. War has become very technical and clinical so the old 'warrior' mindset has been replaced with the new 'warrior' mindset of getting the job done with all the tools at their disposal, much like surgeons now so any comparison of the military mind set and the martial arts mind set isn't valid.


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## Transk53 (Feb 28, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I agree, being a soldier is a professional career, which like any profession is trained for. Long gone are the days of instant obedience and 'over the top'. These days the military is as likely to be doing humanitarian and peace keeping duties as fighting wars. When they do fight wars the infantry soldier is no longer the 'grunt' on the ground, the job is very specialised. War has become very technical and clinical so the old 'warrior' mindset has been replaced with the new 'warrior' mindset of getting the job done with all the tools at their disposal, much like surgeons now so any comparison of the military mind set and the martial arts mind set isn't valid.



Yeah, well put Tez


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## Argus (Feb 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Reducing the system to something that people who fight can use. And that people who do fight use.
> 
> If nobody uses your system or understands it. It is kind of a pointless exercise. Even if it had relevance. Which so far you haven't shown.



Drop Bear, I feel you are making many, many erroneous assumptions.
Why do you feel that noone uses or understands these concepts?
Why do you feel that intangible concepts cannot be applied, or produce real-world results?
Why, for that matter, do you feel you should judge ideas before you even understand them to begin with? You're merely judging your perception of what you think they are, without any understanding of the subject itself. That's a good way not to learn anything.

The more I train, the more I learn to shut my mouth and open my mind. The moment you judge and write off something, is the moment you've ensured that you'll never be able to understand or make use of it. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that cultivates a blind and ignorant perspective of the world. There are so many things in the martial arts that I originally thought impractical or implausible, but can now apply intuitively under pressure because I kept an open mind and trained.

It's kind of like the people who say they don't like "X" (spicy food, or black coffee, for example). It's just a perception; it's simply that they haven't decided to be open minded enough to try X on a regular basis and develop and diversify their tastes. There are many foods now that I can enjoy that I wasn't initially very keen on, simply because I made that choice to give them a try; not once, not twice, but repeatedly until I learned to appreciate them.

Be humble, keep an open mind, and you'll come to appreciate the world in all of its breadth and complexity.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 28, 2015)

Argus said:


> Drop Bear, I feel you are making many, many erroneous assumptions.
> Why do you feel that noone uses or understands these concepts?
> Why do you feel that intangible concepts cannot be applied, or produce real-world results?
> Why, for that matter, do you feel you should judge ideas before you even understand them to begin with? You're merely judging your perception of what you think they are, without any understanding of the subject itself. That's a good way not to learn anything.
> ...



Ok. Who uses or understands these concepts?

people who actually get into fights would be nice.


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## drop bear (Feb 28, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I agree, being a soldier is a professional career, which like any profession is trained for. Long gone are the days of instant obedience and 'over the top'. These days the military is as likely to be doing humanitarian and peace keeping duties as fighting wars. When they do fight wars the infantry soldier is no longer the 'grunt' on the ground, the job is very specialised. War has become very technical and clinical so the old 'warrior' mindset has been replaced with the new 'warrior' mindset of getting the job done with all the tools at their disposal, much like surgeons now so any comparison of the military mind set and the martial arts mind set isn't valid.



Why are the mindsets so different? They are both designed to equip you to handle conflict.


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## drop bear (Feb 28, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> No not really. Neither  Both are irrelevant as to what you originally asked.



Ok then. How do you develop a mindset that prepares you to fight people?

What kind of mind set do you think you should develop?


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## drop bear (Feb 28, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Just a bit of banter between me and drop bear. That it is how I intend anyway



Yeah I don't feel we are getting especially hot and heavy.


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## jks9199 (Feb 28, 2015)

Folks,
Rather than try to figure out whether or not a suggestion to reign in behavior is meant for you, or debate whether it's merited or not -- maybe, just maybe it would be a good idea to simply check your posting behavior, and if it's questionable, address it.  Otherwise -- don't worry about it.  There are numerous posts in this thread that are moving beyond a little friendly banter, and the purpose of gentle warning or nudge is to pull things back before heavier steps need to be taken.  Think of it like driving down a road, and seeing a seat belt reminder or "don't drive drunk" billboard.  If you're wearing your seatbelt, and not drunk at the wheel...  you kind of ignore the sign, right?


----------



## Argus (Feb 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok. Who uses or understands these concepts?
> 
> people who actually get into fights would be nice.



You can do so yourself, if you train in such an art and retain an open mind about it.

I will be honest; I do not really train in an art that utilizes Zanshin or Mushin, so I can't say that I know what I'm talking about myself here. But I do adopt a (I would guess) vaguely similar mindset in practice and sparring where I do not "think" but merely focus on being present, taking everything in objectively, and utilize my intuition to apply my training and adapt to the situation from moment to moment. I find that I perform a lot better in this state of mind than I do in others.

So, in my experience, staying calm and objectively taking in the moment, while utilizing my training via intuition and not feeling or thinking meets with positive results and allows me to better apply said training. Therefore, I would tend to argue that mindset is very important, and arts that incorporate it into their training probably do so in a pragmatic and applicable way that is integral to their practical, intended real-world application.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 28, 2015)

Argus said:


> You can do so yourself, if you train in such an art and retain an open mind about it.
> 
> I will be honest; I do not really train in an art that utilizes Zanshin or Mushin, so I can't say that I know what I'm talking about myself here. But I do adopt a (I would guess) vaguely similar mindset in practice and sparring where I do not "think" but merely focus on being present, taking everything in objectively, and utilize my intuition to apply my training and adapt to the situation from moment to moment. I find that I perform a lot better in this state of mind than I do in others.
> 
> So, in my experience, staying calm and objectively taking in the moment, while utilizing my training via intuition and not feeling or thinking meets with positive results and allows me to better apply said training. Therefore, I would tend to argue that mindset is very important, and arts that incorporate it into their training probably do so in a pragmatic and applicable way that is integral to their practical, intended real-world application.



What training methods did you use to achieve the minset?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 1, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So the army website is wrong and you are right?
> 
> you cant sell that to anybody sorry.



You're missing what's being said. It's not a matter of me being right, the website being wrong, or anything of the kind... instead, it's a matter of differing contexts and emphasis due to intended audience. I'm not recruiting for the army, so I'm looking a little more generally at what a soldier is. You might note that former and current military personnel seem to be agreeing with me, rather than you here… so that might be a clue.



drop bear said:


> Yrs it is.



I'm sorry… are you telling me what I actually meant? Dude… no. I said that the aim is not to make a soldier into a "top-level warrior"… which clearly differentiates them from each other.

In other words, no. They are not the same thing in the context of this discussion.



drop bear said:


> Reducing the system to something that people who fight can use. And that people who do fight use.



Look, to be completely blunt here, you're missing pretty much everything still. I'll put it this way… being able to fight isn't always the aim, or even important… but, at the same time, it's central. However, what that means is that most of this is actually backwards to what you think it is. It's not a matter of reducing things to something "people who fight" can use… it's a matter of people who fought coming up with, and refining, what worked.



drop bear said:


> If nobody uses your system or understands it. It is kind of a pointless exercise. Even if it had relevance. Which so far you haven't shown.



Er… what? I have no idea where you're getting some of these ideas from here… if nobody uses my system? What? If nobody understands it? Dude, what are you going on about?



drop bear said:


> And here is the point of it you may have a martial mindset. But there is no link to it helping you in a fight. Which makes that mindset only relevant to your martial art.



Okay, I've mentioned the idea of "frogs in a well" a few times… I think it might be time to explain that one.

It's an old Chinese story, although the sentiment is found in Japan as well… and basically, it goes along these lines: A frog lived in the bottom of a well… happy and content. One day, a turtle came along, and called down to the frog "Hey, down there… would you like to come up here?" 

"Why would I want to do that?" replied the frog. "Down here is paradise! I know the entire universe! I have tall walls that are solid and unbreakable… there is mud for me to jump in, a pool to wet my feet in, grubs for me to eat, and a circle of light above me. What else is there to the world than this?"

The turtle heard this, and shook his head… "But it's so small! The pond you talk of is nothing compared to the ocean, which is greater and more vast than your eyes will ever see… the walls are short and stop you from being in the bigger world… the circle of light is but a tiny fraction of the enormity of the sky… come up and see the real world!"

The frog heard this, and realised that what he thought was the world was nothing but a small hole in the ground… safe, but small.

The moral is simple… the frog had a very limited exposure, but felt that he knew what the entire universe was. He was, however, completely ignorant of everything outside the well.

What I'm saying here is that yes, it's to do with my martial art… but you are so completely unaware of what that is, what is entailed in that, and how it all relates to "fighting" that these claims you're making some very odd assumptions that only have basis in your own lack of understanding and ability to comprehend what you've been told multiple times now.



drop bear said:


> My argument is that the goal orientation the professionalism and confidence is a fighting mindset. Rather than achieving some mystical state of enlightened fight readiness through specialized training.



And our argument is that, no, those aspects are not a "fighting mindset", and that your idea of there being some "mystical state of enlightened fight readiness" is based only in your ignorance of what's being discussed, not in anything anyone has said here.



drop bear said:


> Ok. Who uses or understands these concepts?
> 
> people who actually get into fights would be nice.



Do you want historical accounts, or present day ones? There are plenty of both, for the record… 



drop bear said:


> Why are the mindsets so different? They are both designed to equip you to handle conflict.



You do understand what different contexts are, yeah?



drop bear said:


> Ok then. How do you develop a mindset that prepares you to fight people?



Once again, that's really not the point. You're looking at it all from the wrong side of things.



drop bear said:


> What kind of mind set do you think you should develop?



For what?


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 1, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok then. How do you develop a mindset that prepares you to fight people?
> 
> What kind of mind set do you think you should develop?



Mindset is pretty much hard wired, well at least that is my opinion. I think there are a lot more people that will never develop the fighting mentality. I guess if I could risk the rude I would, but then again would be pretty stupid of me. I can't answer the question, could guess and there is no point in that. I just go n myself, which predominately is at a basic level on this site. My guess I suppose would be to peeve someone off and just basically wade in. That person would find out if they can strike and move for example, if not, their on the deck mulling over _"Why the hell did I get hit"_


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 1, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yeah I don't feel we are getting especially hot and heavy.



Maybe it would be more me. Anyway you are an Ozzie and I am a Pommie. Is it not our civic duty to lighten up the mood


----------



## Blindside (Mar 1, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Mindset is pretty much hard wired, well at least that is my opinion. I think there are a lot more people that will never develop the fighting mentality. I guess if I could risk the rude I would, but then again would be pretty stupid of me. I can't answer the question, could guess and there is no point in that. I just go n myself, which predominately is at a basic level on this site. My guess I suppose would be to peeve someone off and just basically wade in. That person would find out if they can strike and move for example, if not, their on the deck mulling over _"Why the hell did I get hit"_



There may be more aggressive personality traits that are inherent, but I do think that can be changed through changing and exposure.  Half of it is the confidence that the martial arts are supposed to develop, the knowledge that "well crap, I CAN deal with this, because I have done it before."  I often refer to myself as a "technician" rather than a fighter because I derive my pleasure from being able to successfully execute a "good" technique whereas when I think of the "fighter" I think of one of Randy Coutoure's quotes (paraphrasing here) about how he enjoys grinding on people until he feels their will break.  But I have been developed by my instructors to be a technician who can fight.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 1, 2015)

Blindside said:


> There may be more aggressive personality traits that are inherent, but I do think that can be changed through changing and exposure.  Half of it is the confidence that the martial arts are supposed to develop, the knowledge that "well crap, I CAN deal with this, because I have done it before."  I often refer to myself as a "technician" rather than a fighter because I derive my pleasure from being able to successfully execute a "good" technique whereas when I think of the "fighter" I think of one of Randy Coutoure's quotes (paraphrasing here) about how he enjoys grinding on people until he feels their will break.  *But I have been developed by my instructors to be a technician who can fight.*



Thanks  A very good reply. Yeah what you have posted resonates, but from a different scene. The latter I could ask questions 24-7


----------



## drop bear (Mar 1, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> You're missing what's being said. It's not a matter of me being right, the website being wrong, or anything of the kind... instead, it's a matter of differing contexts and emphasis due to intended audience. I'm not recruiting for the army, so I'm looking a little more generally at what a soldier is. You might note that former and current military personnel seem to be agreeing with me, rather than you here… so that might be a clue.



Lol.no they are not.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 1, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> I'm sorry… are you telling me what I actually meant? Dude… no. I said that the aim is not to make a soldier into a "top-level warrior"… which clearly differentiates them from each other.
> 
> In other words, no. They are not the same thing in the context of this discussion.



Yes it is. Soldier/warrior. In the context of mindset in a fight. Same thing.

And what you mean is that there is a soldier that has a basic training who only goes to foreign countries and kills people and a warrior who trains in superior fighting mindset. But who doesn't go anywhere or fight anyone.

close enough?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 1, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> You do understand what different contexts are, yeah?



Yes. One is a fighting mentality used by people who fight. And one is a martial arts mentality used by people who don't. But who would like to think they could.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 1, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, I've mentioned the idea of "frogs in a well" a few times… I think it might be time to explain that one.
> 
> It's an old Chinese story, although the sentiment is found in Japan as well… and basically, it goes along these lines: A frog lived in the bottom of a well… happy and content. One day, a turtle came along, and called down to the frog "Hey, down there… would you like to come up here?"
> 
> ...



Frogs cant live in an ocean. The salt water kills them.

So yes this is apt. Like the frog in the well my understanding is based in some sort of reality like the well. where I dismiss to a certain degree the fantasy of the ocean.

This is also the difference between a soldier who is real and a warrior who is fantasy.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 1, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Do you want historical accounts, or present day ones? There are plenty of both, for the record…



Present day accounts of how mindset training would have shortened this thread by about three pages.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 1, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Mindset is pretty much hard wired, well at least that is my opinion. I think there are a lot more people that will never develop the fighting mentality. I guess if I could risk the rude I would, but then again would be pretty stupid of me. I can't answer the question, could guess and there is no point in that. I just go n myself, which predominately is at a basic level on this site. My guess I suppose would be to peeve someone off and just basically wade in. That person would find out if they can strike and move for example, if not, their on the deck mulling over _"Why the hell did I get hit"_



Nature vs nurture. 
there is probably a bit of grey area there.

One of my corner men mentioned that in a ring fight nobody freezes up. You get hit and you go after the guy.

If you remove choice everybody fights. This seems to me that everybody has it in them to a degree.

But i might look up the study a bit.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 2, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Nature vs nurture.
> there is probably a bit of grey area there.
> 
> One of my corner men mentioned that in a ring fight nobody freezes up. You get hit and you go after the guy.
> ...



Yeah that does sense that every body has a little fight in them. That would be nature in them. I guess you still have to be hardwired to have that natural confidence to look after yourself.


----------



## Blindside (Mar 2, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Nature vs nurture.
> there is probably a bit of grey area there.
> 
> One of my corner men mentioned that in a ring fight nobody freezes up. You get hit and you go after the guy.
> ...



But anybody who is getting into a ring with a corner has already been mentally prepared for the match, or had better be or the training they received must have sucked.  Stick a newb off the streets guy who has never been in a fight before in that same ring and you could very likely see a freeze or flight.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Frogs cant live in an ocean. The salt water kills them.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Saltwater frogs. Saltwater frogs exhibit water conservation Biodiversity Science


----------



## Steve (Mar 2, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Frogs cant live in an ocean. The salt water kills them.
> 
> So yes this is apt. Like the frog in the well my understanding is based in some sort of reality like the well. where I dismiss to a certain degree the fantasy of the ocean.
> 
> This is also the difference between a soldier who is real and a warrior who is fantasy.


ThE only issue I have here is that this is like a turtle who lives in a large pond tellin the frog in his well about an ocean neither of them have seen.


----------



## Jenna (Mar 2, 2015)

Steve said:


> ThE only issue I have here is that this is like a turtle who lives in a large pond tellin the frog in his well about an ocean neither of them have seen.


.. least they are good company for their selves while the other animals gathered around roll their eyes to the heavens..


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 2, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Frogs cant live in an ocean. The salt water kills them.
> 
> So yes this is apt. Like the frog in the well my understanding is based in some sort of reality like the well. where I dismiss to a certain degree the fantasy of the ocean.
> 
> This is also the difference between a soldier who is real and a warrior who is fantasy.



Yes, but fantasy can also have a real world grounding that you are failing to grasp bear! A warrior is medieval


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Yes, but fantasy can also have a real world grounding that you are failing to grasp bear! A warrior is medieval



sigh.........

And why is that?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 2, 2015)

Blindside said:


> But anybody who is getting into a ring with a corner has already been mentally prepared for the match, or had better be or the training they received must have sucked.  Stick a newb off the streets guy who has never been in a fight before in that same ring and you could very likely see a freeze or flight.





Blindside said:


> But anybody who is getting into a ring with a corner has already been mentally prepared for the match, or had better be or the training they received must have sucked.  Stick a newb off the streets guy who has never been in a fight before in that same ring and you could very likely see a freeze or flight.



Which would put us back to some sort of mental prep for fighting.


----------



## Zero (Mar 3, 2015)

ShotoNoob, sorry have been away having to make a living so will respond but I see since your post about ten pages of comments has subsequently been written on fantasy warriors, small frogs in wells and how everything on an army website trying to drum up recruits should be taken as gospel truth...



ShotoNoob said:


> What makes you think I haven't been challenged in my life or found myself in a self-defense situation with a physically superior opponent?  I've already posted on this.  One of the opponents where the 2 students (@ dojo) were challenging me  (LIKE YOU) was a officer [Captain?] in charge of a platoon of military police where they train professionally? for both  combative & law enforcement real life situations.



Like I have said earlier, from my own personal experience, both in competitive fighting (which I doubt you have participated in, please correct me if my assumption is wrong?) and from sparring and training in the dojo, military personnel, officers or otherwise, are no better as martial artists, or sport fighters, than civilians that train diligently. So your comments as to military police (who granted have more experience generally than your average soldier in at least breaking up altercations and dealing with ne'er-do-wells) or soldiers sparring you doesn't count for much in itself. 



ShotoNoob said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The concept of a corner man is of course gospel in the sport fighting world, especially including MMA.  And of course a corner man can be of benefit.  Try not to challenge me with obvious.  What I said is that I PERSONALLY don't need a corner man and I explained my philosophy on the instructor role in earlier posts.  Traditional martial arts is about individual development, not the team dictating your success.  The latter is sports....
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If I mistook your context then my bad, although I don't think it was clear from your post you were talking about the personal rather than ring context.  That said ShotoNoob, I think you fall down on your own reasoning and in fact I find it even more questionable that you are saying you don't need a "corner man" in your personal life and in MA outside of sport/competition.  This seems to conflict with your earlier statements that you already train with a "master" or teacher in Shotokan - if you don't need a ring man or someone giving you guidance in MA, then why the need for taking lessons in class?  Traditional martial arts despite what you say is about students following and listening to the guidance of the sifu/sensei - is that not your "personal corner man"?



ShotoNoob said:


> If we are in kumite competing against one another, and you think you will benefit from having a coach yelling instructions to you as I smash you in the face so fast you don't have time to react.... you are welcome to a corner man.  As between 'rounds' my aim is you never get to round 2.  If you don't understand the traditional karate foundation and how to apply it in kumite, IMO, the wrong time to learn in the middle of a competition.  It's not my corner man against your corner man in kumite. See YT for example, say Shotokan.



Again, the statement of someone that has never competed at a high level or partaken in a ring fight.  Look at any footage going however far back you like, please go as far back as you like, of the All Japan Karate Competition kumite.  They are there, but there are very few fights in which the opponent is literally KO'd in the first second of fighting. You are really saying that you are so good that I am not going to get to Round Two and you are going to be able to smash my face in in a matter of seconds?  I assume you are applying this to any one who stands against you?



ShotoNoob said:


> In traditional karate, where fights are won or lost in *fractions of a second*, all the thinking is solely up to you.  In sports like MMA where we dance around in the Thai clinch for 30 seconds where neither opponent know how to break the stalemate, sure yell over to the corner man for the solution--since you clearly aren't prepared to do it on your own....


Please provide some supporting evidence, or at least source where you are getting this from, what are you drawing on to make this claim?  Would be helpful to know.



ShotoNoob said:


> I realize this is a forum where members like to socialize.  Since you can't win on the issues, you talk your way to victory by talking down your opponent.  How typical pre-fight MMA interview-like.  Note how you have, at the end, also appointed yourself as the "referee.'  Silly.  Might get an interview with some MMA schools though, grant you that.....  Is that your agenda?


Ah, as you asked, no, am not interested in interviewing but thanks, I make much better money in my current job than most if not all fighters in professional MMA/UFC, but thanks...maybe when I was much younger I would have loved to give something like the UFC a shot if I could have got to that level (yet another dream unfulfilled, sigh...)


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2015)

In my (considerable) experience MMA fighters, boxers and other martial artists who take part in competitions have actually more of a competitive mind set than a 'fighting one'. yes they of course they fight but they fight with the aim of winning the competition so approach a fight differently from someone who is fighting for their life after being attacked. In competitive fighters minds are the tactics worked out for the specific opponent, things like not making stupid mistakes, watching for their opponents tells and mistakes, listening to their corners ( of course you need a corner, why on earth wouldn't you!) and trying to keep a move or two ahead of their opponent. They are working to a game plan...or at least they should be! I have seen 'fighters' enter the ring/cage looking like rabbits in the headlights though. Methinks they were thinking altogether about all the wrong things.


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## BeeBrian (Mar 3, 2015)

There are more available tactics in a real fight than a sportive fight.

Examples:

*throwing a small but heavy object at your opponent, like a rock or a coffee mug.
*using racial slurs to throw the enemy off balance.
*pummeling the top or back of their heads.
*ambush.

And much much more. Lol



The way I see it, there are specialists (karateka, judoka, boxer), and then there are mixed martial artists, and then there are real life fighters.

From left to right, the level of concentrated skill becomes weaker while the level of dynamism gets higher.

As far as which guys are better, that goes to the realm of calculus professors and quantum physicians. Because even some decorated fighters out there can get incredibly biased. The latter probably have never seen an MMA bout and are completely fair and unbiased about the whole thing...

And most importantly, they have more brains than brawn.


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## Transk53 (Mar 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


> sigh.........
> 
> And why is that?



The why is that in the modern day world, what would a warrior be. Some street skilled killer? Someone who is Roman renactment warrior on the weekend? Just think the term warrior is way out of context in modern day parlance. Mmm, should I also sigh


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 3, 2015)

Zero said:


> ShotoNoob, sorry have been away having to make a living so will respond but I see since your post about ten pages of comments has subsequently been written on fantasy warriors, small frogs in wells and how everything on an army website trying to drum up recruits should be taken as gospel truth...


|
Heck, actually as far a blog content goes, the parables and analogies were nicely written & enjoyable.  This kinda literary contribution is welcome on blogs, adds social & entertainment value, not just a lesson.   Hey, I don't have the technique to do this, I was speaking a bit TIC.


Zero said:


> Ah, as you asked, no, am not interested in interviewing but thanks, I make much better money in my current job than most if not all fighters in professional MMA/UFC, but thanks...maybe when I was much younger I would have loved to give something like the UFC a shot if I could have got to that level (yet another dream unfulfilled, sigh...)


|
I skipped most of your deposition. I see you can produce 'billable hours,' when the real work is slacking.  We're lucky you're able to squeeze us into your prolific schedule.  One thing you forget to point out is that you have 43 trophy points to my 8.  Didn't make any headway in my business today so I'm jealous about that too....a slip up in the "state of mind" department on my part....


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## drop bear (Mar 3, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> The why is that in the modern day world, what would a warrior be. Some street skilled killer? Someone who is Roman renactment warrior on the weekend? Just think the term warrior is way out of context in modern day parlance. Mmm, should I also sigh



Because modern people don't fight? Or that in olden times people who fought had some sort of more romantic ethos.


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## donald1 (Mar 4, 2015)

BeeBrian said:


> What is your opinion on state of mind with regards to combat?


state of mind? focused on exactly what im doing.


BeeBrian said:


> Generally speaking, is it better to be angry, energetic, and jacked up with adrenaline to win a fight? Or is it better to be calm, focused, and precise?
> Which is better for what reason?


that makes me think of a quote...
“Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.” ― guatama buddha


BeeBrian said:


> I consider this thing to be very very fundamental. It's kinda like... if you don't pay attention to this, why pay attention to that? Why worry about your macronutrient intake if you are consistently dehydrated? Why buy a book about entrepreneurship if you're unemployed? Why run before walk?


what? i dont understand where your going with this?? are you talking about anger as fundemental


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## marques (Jul 3, 2015)

In combat competition or fast sparring I used to just observe myself moving, *a*motional (Mushin?). Maybe some 'reflexion' going on sometimes.
In normal (slow) sparring I like to see, memorize and analyze (latter) the training situations. Once more, without emotions (ideally).

Too much emotions (or ego) and fighting becomes monkey fight. And your skills go away... Maybe a little angry helps.


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