# New TOW is in.



## Touch Of Death (May 5, 2004)

Hi I just watched the new TOW (Clyde has posted it on the www.kenponet.com) I don't even know where to begin commenting, but I will say the lesson he is giving is not the lesson I am seeing. That is, I am still hung up on the first move. The techs he is covering are flashing mace and leaping crane. Let me know what you think.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 5, 2004)

Can I get away with jokingly calling him a slow amateur, without getting my head taken off?  If I wasn't so close to Pasadena, I might try the tongue-in-cheek 100-yard warrior thing, but I just decided he's one of the people in the world I would prefer not to piss off.

I don't believe I've ever seen that entry into flashing mace before. Wicked cool.

D.


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## Touch Of Death (May 5, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Can I get away with jokingly calling him a slow amateur, without getting my head taken off?  If I wasn't so close to Pasadena, I might try the tongue-in-cheek 100-yard warrior thing, but I just decided he's one of the people in the world I would prefer not to piss off.
> 
> I don't believe I've ever seen that entry into flashing mace before. Wicked cool.
> 
> D.


I think its a method of doing that tech from a thrusting point of reference, but why work a hammer from a thrusting point of origin in the first place?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 5, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> I think its a method of doing that tech from a thrusting point of reference, but why work a hammer from a thrusting point of origin in the first place?


I'm a Gemini, so am of 2 minds on the thing  .  On the one hand, whay not? It's another way to explore expressing the vocabulary of motion from a creative perspective.  Anyway, it certainly looks cool.  On the other hand, ... I'll have to get back to you on that.  Gonna drill it a couple times, think it over, and dissect for liabilities. It seems to me, initially, like it's making an easy approach unecessarily complex for the sake of flare. Not that _I_ could ever get anything in on him while he did it, but for the masses, I think the wide glancing/sliding OtExt followed by the pirrouette to the rear with the answering blows seems like a liability for general practice.  Still, it looks cool.

D.


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## Touch Of Death (May 6, 2004)

Flashing mace is definantly one of those "only if" techs. I've heard that new first move called defanging the snake. Its really cool and flashing mace is one of many techs you can do out of it; however, the lesson should be about that or about blending FM with LC, not just a casual, "here's how ya do it."
One lesson at a time.
Sean


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 6, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Flashing mace is definantly one of those "only if" techs. I've heard that new first move called defanging the snake. Its really cool and flashing mace is one of many techs you can do out of it; however, the lesson should be about that or about blending FM with LC, not just a casual, "here's how ya do it."
> One lesson at a time.
> Sean


Yeah.  I had the video on low, but think he said something about responding to a question about grafting. There are probably more natural blends to graft with.


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## cdhall (May 11, 2004)

I thought that Circular Grafting Tip was excellent again.

I like how Mr. Tatum does his checking. I like how his technique flows. I only watched it quickly just now at work and I couldn't hardly hear it. It is not the way I was taught Flashing Mace. I was taught your rear hand is high and that it drops from there for a reason but I think Mr. Tatum explained what he was doing. It seems to me that his stuff is well-explained and that it works. I'll try to go look at it again but I'll be out of town until Monday if anyone posts and expects me to see it or reply.

I thought the Tip was great because a) It works, b) Mr. Tatum explains what he is doing, c) and he can execute it well himself.


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## Touch Of Death (May 11, 2004)

cdhall said:
			
		

> I thought that Circular Grafting Tip was excellent again.
> 
> I like how Mr. Tatum does his checking. I like how his technique flows. I only watched it quickly just now at work and I couldn't hardly hear it. It is not the way I was taught Flashing Mace. I was taught your rear hand is high and that it drops from there for a reason but I think Mr. Tatum explained what he was doing. It seems to me that his stuff is well-explained and that it works. I'll try to go look at it again but I'll be out of town until Monday if anyone posts and expects me to see it or reply.
> 
> I thought the Tip was great because a) It works, b) Mr. Tatum explains what he is doing, c) and he can execute it well himself.


what he was doing was starting the tech with his hands at his side. Against a punch for that matter. I suggest you get you hands up when threatened.


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## RCastillo (May 11, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> what he was doing was starting the tech with his hands at his side. Against a punch for that matter. I suggest you get you hands up when threatened.



I tried that against the Goldendragon once. He was waaaaaaaaay too fast. :xtrmshock


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## Touch Of Death (May 11, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> I tried that against the Goldendragon once. He was waaaaaaaaay too fast. :xtrmshock


Throw sand in his eyes, and throw your voice. But seriously, the punch is probably too fast for you to start with your hands down. God knows, kenpoists try.
Sean


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## Bill Lear (May 12, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Throw sand in his eyes, and throw your voice. But seriously, the punch is probably too fast for you to start with your hands down. God knows, kenpoists try.
> Sean



Okay... Okay... I'm gunna start walking around all day with my hands on my head. That way I'll have my hands "UP" just incase anybody decides to throw a punch at me for no resaon. God forbid we should actually find ourselves in a confrontation with our hands at our sides... What in the world would we do?


:xtrmshock


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## Touch Of Death (May 12, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Okay... Okay... I'm gunna start walking around all day with my hands on my head. That way I'll have my hands "UP" just incase anybody decides to throw a punch at me for no resaon. God forbid we should actually find ourselves in a confrontation with our hands at our sides... What in the world would we do?
> 
> 
> :xtrmshock


I have no problem with the defanging thing, in a pinch; however, that was not the lesson.
Sean


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## satans.barber (May 13, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Okay... Okay... I'm gunna start walking around all day with my hands on my head. That way I'll have my hands "UP" just incase anybody decides to throw a punch at me for no resaon. God forbid we should actually find ourselves in a confrontation with our hands at our sides... What in the world would we do?
> 
> 
> :xtrmshock



The way I teach defenses against straight punches, you shouldn't get hit even if you don't do anything with your hands. i.e. I always tell people that they should step off the line of attack sufficiently so that even if they don't do anything with their hands the punch won't find it's mark (kinda like a boxer bobbing and weaving I suppose).

I usually show them the technique this way first with no blocks so they know where they're stepping to (usually 10 or 2 depending on which side the punch is coming from), then add in the blocks or breaks etc. the second time.

Ian.


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

satans.barber said:
			
		

> The way I teach defenses against straight punches, you shouldn't get hit even if you don't do anything with your hands. i.e. I always tell people that they should step off the line of attack sufficiently so that even if they don't do anything with their hands the punch won't find it's mark (kinda like a boxer bobbing and weaving I suppose).
> 
> I usually show them the technique this way first with no blocks so they know where they're stepping to (usually 10 or 2 depending on which side the punch is coming from), then add in the blocks or breaks etc. the second time.
> 
> Ian.


good point; however, if you consider the syncronization of body, mind, and breath. Your hands hanging at your side will make the whole operation a little slower. (think sword and hammer and transfer lesson to rest of the art)
Sean


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## Bill Lear (May 13, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> good point; however, if you consider the syncronization of body, mind, and breath. Your hands hanging at your side will make the whole operation a little slower. (think sword and hammer and transfer lesson to rest of the art)
> Sean



Wrong! I walk with my hands at my sides all day and it doesn't seem to slow me down. Hell, when I run they don't get much highrer than my waist. Satan's Barber has the right Idea (step off the line)... Sean, how can you define movement in an entire system with one technique? And when I start Sword and Hammer, ironically, I start it with my hands at my sides (go figure...)

I guess I'm wrong.

:idunno:


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Wrong! I walk with my hands at my sides all day and it doesn't seem to slow me down. Hell, when I run they don't get much highrer than my waist. Satan's Barber has the right Idea (step off the line)... Sean, how can you define movement in an entire system with one technique? And when I start Sword and Hammer, ironically, I start it with my hands at my sides (go figure...)
> 
> I guess I'm wrong.
> 
> :idunno:


like its or not, Billy your strikes are faster when your hands are up.(or blocks) and Sword and hammer teaches sycronization of your hands with you body, the faster you pin the faster your strike(this was what SB was talking about,and I was using SH to contradict him), and yes in that case your hands are at your side. Stay with me! so, I guess your right, you are wrong.
Sean :asian:


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## MJS (May 13, 2004)

What about a sucker punch?  In that instance, you're not gonna know whats happening, so again your hands will be down.  Not every tech. is going to start with hands up.  Then again, is it the best thing to put your hands up in a threatening manner in the first place?  I mean, by doing that, there is a chance to further provoke the situation.  Even if you are going to bring your hands up, I would still think that getting off line is just as good.  At least you're not getting hit.

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> What about a sucker punch?  In that instance, you're not gonna know whats happening, so again your hands will be down.  Not every tech. is going to start with hands up.  Then again, is it the best thing to put your hands up in a threatening manner in the first place?  I mean, by doing that, there is a chance to further provoke the situation.  Even if you are going to bring your hands up, I would still think that getting off line is just as good.  At least you're not getting hit.
> 
> Mike


Choosing to use your hands at all will slow the stepping off the line of attack down to that speed. One is slower the other is faster. If you can pull off the defanging the cobra thing, you were ready and waiting.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> ... Sean, how can you define movement in an entire system with one technique?
> 
> I guess I'm wrong.(I just left that for fun. sw)
> 
> :idunno:


I cant' believe you just asked that question, but its all variations of Delayed Sword.
Sean


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 13, 2004)

What was the old Parker quote? "If someone is swinging at your head, what's the first thing you should move? Your head!".


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> What was the old Parker quote? "If someone is swinging at your head, what's the first thing you should move? Your head!".


"Speed is when the target to be reached last is the first to be moved out of the way" its been a while.
Sean


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## MJS (May 13, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Choosing to use your hands at all will slow the stepping off the line of attack down to that speed. One is slower the other is faster. If you can pull off the defanging the cobra thing, you were ready and waiting.
> Sean



Not sure what you mean here.  Maybe I'm reading it wrong.  How will using your hands slow you down while moving?? I've moved off line and done a parry at the same time, while starting with hands down.

Mike


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## MJS (May 13, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Flashing mace is definantly one of those "only if" techs. I've heard that new first move called defanging the snake. Its really cool and flashing mace is one of many techs you can do out of it; however, the lesson should be about that or about blending FM with LC, not just a casual, "here's how ya do it."
> One lesson at a time.
> Sean



First, IMO, the TOW is about blending the 2 techs together, not the limb destruction.  Second, its amazing how this thread is getting sooooo far off track here.  

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> First, IMO, the TOW is about blending the 2 techs together, not the limb destruction.  Second, its amazing how this thread is getting sooooo far off track here.
> 
> Mike


If it helps, watch the TOW with the sound down. Then his lesson does not interfere with what you are seeing, and what you are seeing is Kenpo. Oddly enough, that is what is being discussed on this thread; so, No, it has not gone off topic one little bit. (you'll notice whom started the thread)
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Not sure what you mean here.  Maybe I'm reading it wrong.  How will using your hands slow you down while moving?? I've moved off line and done a parry at the same time, while starting with hands down.
> 
> Mike


You are faster with your hands up. Deal with it.
Sean


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## MJS (May 13, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> If it helps, watch the TOW with the sound down. Then his lesson does not interfere with what you are seeing, and what you are seeing is Kenpo. Oddly enough, that is what is being discussed on this thread; so, No, it has not gone off topic one little bit. (you'll notice whom started the thread)
> Sean



Obviously, with all of the people watching this, we of course, are going to have different view points.  I watched it and saw that he was teaching about grafting 2 techs. together.  When I made ref. to the fact that the thread got off track, I was referring to the hands being down.  Again, it appears that we're all getting something different from it.  

Mike


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## MJS (May 13, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> You are faster with your hand up. deal with it.
> Sean



So basically, you're making it sound like if you ever get caught with your hands down, youre gonna be screwed???  There are many different ways to avoid a hit.  If you get caught off guard, and cant bring your hands up quick enough, you're not going to be any slower just by moving your head.  Deal with the fact that there are many ways to block/avoid/defend!

Mike


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## Bill Lear (May 13, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> You are faster with your hand up. deal with it.
> Sean



The block is faster with the hands up, obviously, duh.

But having my hands up doesn't make me step off the line of attack faster (sorry don't buy it).

As for doing techniques from a natural stance (hands at your sides) while in a technique line, I think it conditions the student to move faster from an unprepared position.

I'm not wrong this time Sean. Sorry.  :moon:


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## MJS (May 13, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> The block is faster with the hands up, obviously, duh.
> 
> But having my hands up doesn't make me step off the line of attack faster (sorry don't buy it).
> 
> ...



Thank you!!

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> The block is faster with the hands up, obviously, duh.
> 
> But having my hands up doesn't make me step off the line of attack faster (sorry don't buy it).
> 
> ...


Quite the contrary, techniques lines with feet on the same line and hands at their sides, trains them all to be slow. Its bad dope man! However you can believe what you want and ignore the lessons the techs teach all you want its your version of the art. Enjoy
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> The block is faster with the hands up, obviously, duh.
> 
> But having my hands up doesn't make me step off the line of attack faster (sorry don't buy it).
> 
> ...


If you buy sycronization of body, mind, and breath. Why, if one is slower, wouln't the whole dynamic be effected? Or is that whole syncronization thing a farse?
I'm curious to hear your answer, as well, MJS.
Sean


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## Bill Lear (May 13, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> If you buy sycronization of body, mind, and breath. Why, if one is slower, wouln't the whole dynamic be effected? Or is that whole syncronization thing a farse?
> I'm curious to hear your answer, as well, MJS.
> Sean



That's why you step and block at the same time... Your body is catching up to your arms if you already have them up when you step (That was called "Jet Lag" by Mr. Parker, and it isn't a good thing)... Dood... Your'e wrong again.


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## MJS (May 13, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Quite the contrary, techniques lines with feet on the same line and hands at their sides, trains them all to be slow. Its bad dope man! However you can believe what you want and ignore the lessons the techs teach all you want its your version of the art. Enjoy
> Sean



Well, like I said before, we all see different things here.  I still dont see how having your hands up or down is going to make a difference.  Of course, if you're looking to block, its gonna be faster, but as for moving, I still dont buy it either.  Look at a boxer.  Now, he has his hands up and I dont think it slows him down when he bobs to the side.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that even if the feet are together, you will still be moving out of the way as the hands are coming up, so you're still getting out of the way and avoiding the hit.  Even if you're standing in a bow, just the moving of the head, without the feet, still avoids the hit.

Mike


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## MJS (May 13, 2004)

TOD-  I think my above post addresses your question.  I posted that even prior to reading your response.

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> That's why you step and block at the same time... Your body is catching up to your arms if you already have them up when you step (That was called "Jet Lag" by Mr. Parker, and it isn't a good thing)... Dood... Your'e wrong again.


What are you talking about? This all happens at the same time or it doesn't. Are you saying its best to have your arms down to prevent jet lag, or are your feet not fast enough getting off the line of attack? Its OK to sync your mind with your body and breath you know. Now your wrong. :supcool:


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## Bill Lear (May 13, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Quite the contrary, techniques lines with feet on the same line and hands at their sides, trains them all to be slow. Its bad dope man! However you can believe what you want and ignore the lessons the techs teach all you want its your version of the art. Enjoy
> Sean



In all of the video that I've ever seen of Mr. Parker over the years... I have never seen him start a technique with his hands up before the attack was thrown... Maybe he was wrong too.


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## Bill Lear (May 13, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> What are you talking about? This all happens at the same time or it doesn't. Are you saying its best to have your arms down to prevent jet lag, or are your feet not fast enough getting off the line of attack? Its OK to sync your mind with your body and breath you know. Now your wrong. :supcool:



It is obvious that you aren't reading my posts. I'm done trying to discuss this with you.  :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> That's why you step and block at the same time... Your body is catching up to your arms if you already have them up when you step (That was called "Jet Lag" by Mr. Parker, and it isn't a good thing)... Dood... Your'e wrong again.


Oh, did I not read this right?


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> In all of the video that I've ever seen of Mr. Parker over the years... I have never seen him start a technique with his hands up before the attack was thrown... Maybe he was wrong too.


Maybe, the art I study is an ever changing ever evolving art; how about you?
Sean


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## Bill Lear (May 13, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Maybe, the art I study is an ever changing ever evolving art; how about you?
> Sean



Go evolve Sean. When you're done growing wings look around you and think about what you lost and what you gained in the process?


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Go evolve Sean. When you're done growing wings look around you and think about what you lost and what you gained in the process?


Will do.


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## jeffkyle (May 14, 2004)

My question is....What if the attacker "attempts" to kick you?  Do you want to start with your hands up then?
I guess it boils down to what position your hands need to be in to gain the maximum efficiency for any defense or attack.  
The one thing I can't get over in all of this is that the "natural" position of the hands, in any usual situation, is down.  So to me that seems to be a good starting point.


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## satans.barber (May 14, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> good point; however, if you consider the syncronization of body, mind, and breath. Your hands hanging at your side will make the whole operation a little slower. (think sword and hammer and transfer lesson to rest of the art)
> Sean



Of course, I don't suggest that this is the best defence, I just want people to concentrate on stepping out of the way as much, if not more than the block (when they first learn the technique anyway) and realise its importance.

Try not to think of it as just 'hands down by your sides', what if it's Winter and you have your hands deep in your coat pockets? What if you've been shopping and you're carrying plastic bags in each hand? What if, god forbid, you're carrying a child? I can think of loads of reasons why you may not be able to spring into action with your hands, so I still think it's valid training to practice not using them. :asian:

Ian.


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## MJS (May 14, 2004)

satans.barber said:
			
		

> Of course, I don't suggest that this is the best defence, I just want people to concentrate on stepping out of the way as much, if not more than the block (when they first learn the technique anyway) and realise its importance.
> 
> Try not to think of it as just 'hands down by your sides', what if it's Winter and you have your hands deep in your coat pockets? What if you've been shopping and you're carrying plastic bags in each hand? What if, god forbid, you're carrying a child? I can think of loads of reasons why you may not be able to spring into action with your hands, so I still think it's valid training to practice not using them. :asian:
> 
> Ian.



Agreed!! :asian:   The "what if/even if" situations come to my mind here!  

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2004)

jeffkyle said:
			
		

> My question is....What if the attacker "attempts" to kick you?  Do you want to start with your hands up then?
> I guess it boils down to what position your hands need to be in to gain the maximum efficiency for any defense or attack.
> The one thing I can't get over in all of this is that the "natural" position of the hands, in any usual situation, is down.  So to me that seems to be a good starting point.


Yes, you do want your hands up if your opponent is kicking at you.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2004)

satans.barber said:
			
		

> Of course, I don't suggest that this is the best defence, I just want people to concentrate on stepping out of the way as much, if not more than the block (when they first learn the technique anyway) and realise its importance.
> 
> Try not to think of it as just 'hands down by your sides', what if it's Winter and you have your hands deep in your coat pockets? What if you've been shopping and you're carrying plastic bags in each hand? What if, god forbid, you're carrying a child? I can think of loads of reasons why you may not be able to spring into action with your hands, so I still think it's valid training to practice not using them. :asian:
> 
> Ian.


Yes, but, for the most part, technique lines are the rule and not the exception; so, you are training for the exception. Your comment reminds me of "trainspotting" when the guy was dropped his beer to punch the guy in the face.
Sean


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## MJS (May 14, 2004)

Well, again, it just proves my point that we all view things differently.  What may work for one person, may not work for another.  Is one persons way of doing something wrong just because its a little different? Of course not.  Although you'll find many people who disagree very strongly with that, and I think its pretty obvious that its happening here.  

A good example of this would be Delayed Sword.  Some people pin the hand and some do not.  Does this make it wrong? Nope.  I've actually done it both ways, and while pinning gets a different reaction, it still worked both ways for me.

So.....if someone can block a punch without keeping their hands up...great!  If they need to keep their hands up..thats great too!  As long as whatever it is that they're doing works, and they dont get hit...well, isnt that the goal???

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Well, again, it just proves my point that we all view things differently.  What may work for one person, may not work for another.  Is one persons way of doing something wrong just because its a little different? Of course not.  Although you'll find many people who disagree very strongly with that, and I think its pretty obvious that its happening here.
> 
> A good example of this would be Delayed Sword.  Some people pin the hand and some do not.  Does this make it wrong? Nope.  I've actually done it both ways, and while pinning gets a different reaction, it still worked both ways for me.
> 
> ...


Sure,... I suppose. But then where is the heated debate? :argue: 
Sean :asian:


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## MJS (May 14, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Sure,... I suppose. But then where is the heated debate? :argue:
> Sean :asian:



Good point!!   :asian: 

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2004)

We have ways of negating that jet lag Billy was talking about but that is another lesson...
Sean :asian:


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## satans.barber (May 14, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Yes, but, for the most part, technique lines are the rule and not the exception; so, you are training for the exception. Your comment reminds me of "trainspotting" when the guy was dropped his beer to punch the guy in the face.
> Sean



Even if I'm in a line I start with my hands by my sides, unless it's a technique that's specifically written from a stance (Retreating Pendulum and Glancing Wing are the only ones that spring to mind). 

I have to agree with Billy on this one, I think you're giving yourself an unrealistic advantage and not training for the street if you're starting all your techniques with your hands up. 

Sure, if someone comes up and starts talking at you in a pub or a car park, and you think they're going to have a go, you may be able to bring your hands up first in a 'don't want any trouble' sort of gesture that you can move from; but I've seen quite a lot of horrific video footage recently that makes me think this most likely isn't going to be the case. 

I've seen some footage of police officers in America being attacked that was caught on the in-car cameras, where the people they'd pulled over just launched into their faces with no prior warning, threats otr violent behaviour. There was footage of people in shops and other places covered by cameras and CCTV being caught in much the same way. A lot of these people were attacked so violently it literally ruined their lives (some of them lost vision in one or both eyes, some were in comas, some suffered brain damage and so on). I'd still rather try and train for a knee-jerk dodge or dodge and parry reaction for these types of situations than to pretend I could always have my hands ready. As Billy said, you don't walk around with your hands up just in case...

Just my 2p 

Ian.


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2004)

satans.barber said:
			
		

> Even if I'm in a line I start with my hands by my sides, unless it's a technique that's specifically written from a stance (Retreating Pendulum and Glancing Wing are the only ones that spring to mind).
> 
> I have to agree with Billy on this one, I think you're giving yourself an unrealistic advantage and not training for the street if you're starting all your techniques with your hands up.
> 
> ...


Those cops were poorly trained and allowed the assailant to get to close. They were unaware. Hows that Ed Parker Saying go... "Distance is your best friend." Once too close, proper proceedure would be left hand up, right hand at weapon while controling the distance.
Sean
 :snipe2:


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## MJS (May 14, 2004)

I believe the point SB was trying to make, was along the same lines as one of my posts talking about a sucker punch, or  getting caught off guard.  As I said, if you can detect that something may happen, having your hands up in the fashion that he mentioned is a good thing.  But just when you thought that the verbal argument was over, and that things were settled, all of a sudden, the guy comes back and takes a swing at you.  If getting your hands up quick enough is not possible, at least you may have a chance of moving out of the way.

Mike


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## MJS (May 14, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Those cops were poorly trained and allowed the assailant to get to close. They were unaware. Hows that Ed Parker Saying go... "Distance is your best friend." Once too close, proper proceedure would be left hand up, right hand at weapon while controling the distance.
> Sean
> :snipe2:



Not always the case.  If they are patting someone down, the guy is gonna be right there.  A sudden turn could result in an elbow to the cops face.  

Again, the point that is trying to be made here, is the "What if" situations.

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> I believe the point SB was trying to make, was along the same lines as one of my posts talking about a sucker punch, or  getting caught off guard.  As I said, if you can detect that something may happen, having your hands up in the fashion that he mentioned is a good thing.  But just when you thought that the verbal argument was over, and that things were settled, all of a sudden, the guy comes back and takes a swing at you.  If getting your hands up quick enough is not possible, at least you may have a chance of moving out of the way.
> 
> Mike


Then by all means thrust, don't hammer.
sean


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Not always the case.  If they are patting someone down, the guy is gonna be right there.  A sudden turn could result in an elbow to the cops face.
> 
> Again, the point that is trying to be made here, is the "What if" situations.
> 
> Mike


That would be a failure to control, and if your patting him down your hands are not at your sides.
Sean


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## MJS (May 14, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> That would be a failure to control, and if your patting him down your hands are not at your sides.
> Sean



Nope, they're not at your sides, but they are not up either.  If the officer is patting at the waist level, the head is wide open.

Question for you.  We've been talking about the hands being up.  What is your version of up??  Up like a boxer would keep them, IFO the chest??

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Nope, they're not at your sides, but they are not up either.  If the officer is patting at the waist level, the head is wide open.
> 
> Question for you.  We've been talking about the hands being up.  What is your version of up??  Up like a boxer would keep them, IFO the chest??
> 
> Mike


hands above elbows, but not necessarily in front of chest.
Sean


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## kenpo12 (May 14, 2004)

Look, for video purposes Mr. Tatum generally starts with his hands down.  Probably because the majority of techniques, in the manuel, start out with the defender in a "neutral position".  I have seen Mr. Tatum teach us to vary our starting position, and he has taught us many times to get our hands up if possible.  He has also taught us several ways to do it, and not be so obvious, like scratching your head, etc.  Also, if you practice with your hands down, and you get fast enough to pull off the technique from that position, think of how much better you will be able to react if you can get your hands up in a real situation.


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> Look, for video purposes Mr. Tatum generally starts with his hands down.  Probably because the majority of techniques, in the manuel, start out with the defender in a "neutral position".  I have seen Mr. Tatum teach us to vary our starting position, and he has taught us many times to get our hands up if possible.  He has also taught us several ways to do it, and not be so obvious, like scratching your head, etc.  Also, if you practice with your hands down, and you get fast enough to pull off the technique from that position, think of how much better you will be able to react if you can get your hands up in a real situation.


I agree; however, "most people" will never be faster with their hands down than the attacker with their hands up. That is another problem with technique lines. Dummies as you call them slow there attacks down so the guy can do his tech. This causes people to be lulled into a false sense of security and speed; hence, the culture of the step through punch is passed on from student to student. (nobody's fault)
Sean


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## MJS (May 14, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> I agree; however, "most people" will never be faster with their hands down than the attacker with their hands up. That is another problem with technique lines. Dummies as you call them slow there attacks down so the guy can do his tech. This causes people to be lulled into a false sense of security and speed; hence, the culture of the step through punch is passed on from student to student. (nobody's fault)
> Sean



How do you practice your techs??  Do you do any tech. lines??

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> How do you practice your techs??  Do you do any tech. lines??
> 
> Mike


Modified technique lines are OK,but the feet toguether, hands at your side thing is out. Like I said when that becomes the norm, there is a problem. Its a great what if or even and "even if", but I prefer "only if".
Sean


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## jeffkyle (May 14, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Yes, you do want your hands up if your opponent is kicking at you.
> Sean



Even If it is a low kick to the groin.    Why?


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2004)

jeffkyle said:
			
		

> Even If it is a low kick to the groin.    Why?


block them suckers with your legs.
sean


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## MJS (May 14, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> block them suckers with your legs.
> sean



Actually, leg blocks are very effective.  I've used them during sparring as well as during SD against kicks to the groin.

Mike


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## kenpo12 (May 14, 2004)

"however, "most people" will never be faster with their hands down than the attacker with their hands up."

I know that, I will repost the specific quote of mine that covered this.

 "if you practice with your hands down, and you get fast enough to pull off the technique from that position, think of how much better you will be able to react if you can get your hands up in a real situation."

Additionally, like I said before "hands down" is NOT the only way we do it.


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> "however, "most people" will never be faster with their hands down than the attacker with their hands up."
> 
> I know that, I will repost the specific quote of mine that covered this.
> 
> ...


I won't pursue your logic further (just think how much further north you would be if you were one mile north of the north pole); so I will ... er ... conceed your point. :uhyeah: (Because I think you are headed south again) 
Sean


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (May 15, 2004)

Once the hands are up, you've lost the neutrality to use centerline as effectively, kinda like being in a stance and having 180 degrees instead of a natural position and having the freedom of 360 degrees to move within.   A technique like Circling the Horizon works this principle of centerline and simultaneous movement as well as Flashing Mace.    

BTW, the clip was about Circular Grafting.

Dark Lord


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## Touch Of Death (May 15, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Once the hands are up, you've lost the neutrality to use centerline as effectively, kinda like being in a stance and having 180 degrees instead of a natural position and having the freedom of 360 degrees to move within.   A technique like Circling the Horizon works this principle of centerline and simultaneous movement as well as Flashing Mace.
> 
> BTW, the clip was about Circular Grafting.
> 
> Dark Lord


Yes, the methods I describe certainly limit your choices. :asian:


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## rmcrobertson (May 15, 2004)

"the culture of the step-through punch," eh?

Maybe in your school, Sean. In mine, I regularly get chewed out (and snack a little myself) for a) perfect step-throughs, b) languid attacks.

Or to quote das Clyde, it's all about, "the spirit of the attack." To quote Mr. Tatum (and reason 1,243 to keep all the "useless stuff," in kenpo), in dummying well, you are learning how to attack properly.

It was a darn good phrase though. I believe I shall adopt it.


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## Touch Of Death (May 16, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> "the culture of the step-through punch," eh?
> 
> Maybe in your school, Sean. In mine, I regularly get chewed out (and snack a little myself) for a) perfect step-throughs, b) languid attacks.
> 
> ...


Try getting chewed out for doing a stepthrough punch at all. LOL
Sean :asian:


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## Kenpodoc (May 16, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> "however, "most people" will never be faster with their hands down than the attacker with their hands up."
> 
> I know that, I will repost the specific quote of mine that covered this.
> 
> ...


Personally I like to do it, hands up, hands down, one hand up and one down, from the front, from the Left, from the Right, opponent step through punch, Lead hand jab, Right cross, Kick punch and any other variation you can find.  Some work better than others but being comfortable with different points of origen is fun and useful.

Jeff


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## Touch Of Death (May 16, 2004)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Personally I like to do it, hands up, hands down, one hand up and one down, from the front, from the Left, from the Right, opponent step through punch, Lead hand jab, Right cross, Kick punch and any other variation you can find.  Some work better than others but being comfortable with different points of origen is fun and useful.
> 
> Jeff


Usefull, it seems to me, would be to assign certain techs to certain points of origin by catagory and circumstance, although I must admit the lure of being able to choose anything is tempting, but it would be like being in a video store that has too many movies; it takes longer to choose. Which brings me to flaw in my argument, I'm white dot focusing(OFK) on speed, which I must admit was not the subject of the TOW: so, I'll shut up now :asian:


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