# Transgenders in martial arts



## WingChunChick (Jan 12, 2017)

I'd like to preface this thread by saying that I respect people of all sexualies and gender identities and I hope everyone can have a nice discussion on the topic. 

That being said I've had to train with a few transgendered people over the last few years and although they are good martial artists I'm not exactly comfortable with seeing them appear in women's martial art classes. They are built differently both having male parts (I'm talking about the male ones) and are generally larger then most girls, giving them an advantage and making for some awkard situations. 

I'm wondering what your guys's thoughts on the subject and how to handle it are?


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## Danny T (Jan 12, 2017)

All of our classes are co-ed.  Different genders partner all the time. Sexuality has nothing to do with the training.
If you are larger, heavier, stronger, faster than your partner then you back off and work to help make them better.
Works very well and have had very few concerns.


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## drop bear (Jan 12, 2017)

Don't care. 

Female only is a marketing tool anyway. 

Otherwise i guess i would treat it with the same indifference that i treat guys who can't train with girls.


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## Jenna (Jan 13, 2017)

WingChunChick said:


> I'd like to preface this thread by saying that I respect people of all sexualies and gender identities and I hope everyone can have a nice discussion on the topic.
> 
> That being said I've had to train with a few transgendered people over the last few years and although they are good martial artists I'm not exactly comfortable with seeing them appear in women's martial art classes. They are built differently both having male parts (I'm talking about the male ones) and are generally larger then most girls, giving them an advantage and making for some awkard situations.
> 
> I'm wondering what your guys's thoughts on the subject and how to handle it are?


Hi there  Welcome along!!  Hey, are you competing against these folk?  In which case you are separated into weight classifications for competition??

Otherwise if what bother you it is the unfair advantage (male against female) I wonder could you look at this at all as beneficial in training your defence because you are become proficient against such larger opponents? 

If what bother you more is awkward situations then again could you think primarily not of the clothes choice or gender identity of your opponent and but instead think of YOUR OWN defence? Like what advantages can you call to bear to overcome this larger opponent?? Bear in mind this might reflect some real world situation any of us could be unfortunate enough to find our self in yes? xo

That being said, I understand your concerns and, political correctness aside, I believe there is legitimacy in those concerns. Wishes x


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## wingchun100 (Jan 13, 2017)

Not to be crass, but genitalia does not matter. What matters is, "Does this person prefer to be addressed by male or female pronouns?" They can live as a man or woman without physically being them yet.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jan 13, 2017)

I agree with the others, unless it's a competition I see no problem training together. Not only that but more often than not good technique will trump brute strength every time. I'm not the weakest guy and I have a long reach but there is a woman in my training sessions who is a lot more skilled than me and she beats me every time, despite being smaller and weaker than myself.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 13, 2017)

WingChunChick said:


> I'd like to preface this thread by saying that I respect people of all sexualies and gender identities and I hope everyone can have a nice discussion on the topic.
> 
> That being said I've had to train with a few transgendered people over the last few years and although they are good martial artists I'm not exactly comfortable with seeing them appear in women's martial art classes. They are built differently both having male parts (I'm talking about the male ones) and are generally larger then most girls, giving them an advantage and making for some awkard situations.
> 
> I'm wondering what your guys's thoughts on the subject and how to handle it are?


 
By the way, it says you joined yesterday, so welcome to MT!


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## Danny T (Jan 13, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Not to be crass, but genitalia does not matter. What matters is, "Does this person prefer to be addressed by male or female pronouns?" They can live as a man or woman without physically being them yet.


Pronoun??
Refer to them by their name - noun.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 13, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Pronoun??
> Refer to them by their name - noun.


 
That's a given, but pronoun is also part of it, whether they prefer to be referred to as "he" or "she."


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## Danny T (Jan 13, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> That's a given, but pronoun is also part of it, whether they prefer to be referred to as "he" or "she."


So refer to Jim as Jim, Ashley as Ashley, or Jen and Jen there is no he or she and everyone knows who is being referred to.
As I stated already sexuality and gender has nothing to do with training.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 13, 2017)

Danny T said:


> So refer to Jim as Jim, Ashley as Ashley, or Jen and Jen there is no he or she and everyone knows who is being referred to.
> As I stated already sexuality and gender has nothing to do with training.


 
Nothing to do with training, everything to do with being sensitive to how they want to be treated.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jan 13, 2017)

Danny T said:


> So refer to Jim as Jim, Ashley as Ashley, or Jen and Jen there is no he or she and everyone knows who is being referred to.
> As I stated already sexuality and gender has nothing to do with training.



Pronouns are very important to trans-gendered individuals and (here in the UK at least) it is considered polite to ask which pronoun a person prefers. I don't know about you but constantly repeating someone's name over and over gets very tiresome:

"Hi everyone, this is Jen and Jen is joining us for the first time. Please make Jen feel welcome as Jen is feeling rather nervous."


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2017)

For me, I think you're perfectly entitled to hold whatever opinions you have about transgendered people.   But you have a decision to make.  It sounds like your school has made a decision to allow them into the women's only classes.  Your decision will hinge on whether you can set your concerns to the side, or not. 

Personally, I wouldn't care, but if you have what you believe are legitimate concerns, I respect that.  Just understand that changing your school's policy will likely not be possible.  Your likely recourse will be to leave the school and find another one.


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## O'Malley (Jan 13, 2017)

Well the only issue that I'd see with transgender/gender fluid/attack helicopter sexual identity is that it could lead to absurd and/or unfair situations in competitions.

Otherwise I don't see how training with them would be a problem, it would just be the same as training with men and would make you work harder to overcome the difference in size and strength.

What kind of awkward situations are you thinking about?

And not training with transgender will not keep you away from women who are larger/more muscular than normal. My roommate was a regular girl who had a hormonal disease that sent her testosterone production through the roof, she was a boxer and put on more muscle than some guys in her gym. Had to stop training because she said she didn't want to look like the Romanovian girl from the movie Dodgeball.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 13, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Pronouns are very important to trans-gendered individuals and (here in the UK at least) it is considered polite to ask which pronoun a person prefers. I don't know about you but constantly repeating someone's name over and over gets very tiresome:
> 
> "Hi everyone, this is Jen and Jen is joining us for the first time. Please make Jen feel welcome as Jen is feeling rather nervous."


 
That was my point.


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## Druid11 (Jan 13, 2017)

WingChunChick said:


> I'd like to preface this thread by saying that I respect people of all sexualies and gender identities and I hope everyone can have a nice discussion on the topic.
> 
> That being said I've had to train with a few transgendered people over the last few years and although they are good martial artists I'm not exactly comfortable with seeing them appear in women's martial art classes. They are built differently both having male parts (I'm talking about the male ones) and are generally larger then most girls, giving them an advantage and making for some awkard situations.
> 
> I'm wondering what your guys's thoughts on the subject and how to handle it are?



I have no idea if I've trained with someone who was transgendered.  Perhaps I have and never knew it.  I've also never taken an women's only martial arts class.  The only ones I know about in my area are more of those cardio-kickboxing classes then real martial arts.  I've always trained in co-ed classes and I have no real issue with training with men, and I certainly wouldn't have a problem training with a male to female trans person (or a female to male trans person for that matter). I would be really offended if I guy didn't want to train with me because I'm a woman, so why would I be hesitant to work with someone because they might have/had different genitalia then I do?    I don't really see why there would be any issues with training with them, at least if we're talking about training for fun, fitness, and self-defense.  I've never had an "awkward" situation with a man in martial arts, even when I did BJJ.  As long as everyone behaves like adults, I don't see a problem.  So as far as I'm concerned there would be nothing to handle.

I believe Real Sports (I may be mistaken) did a segment on a male to female trans woman who was now competing in MMA some years ago.  I think you might be able to make an argument that in full contact competitive sports that someone who was born physically male would have an unfair advantage.  Those born physically male are simply able to build more muscle then someone born physically female (or at least they could before starting female hormones) and would probably be stronger even assuming the same weight.  I really don't want to say that she shouldn't be able compete against other woman, but I do think she has an advantage.  But then there are always athletes who have natural advantages over their competitors, we don't exclude them from competing in their chosen sport.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 13, 2017)

In Albany there is a woman (born a man) who was into stunt fights and now does wrestling. She is massive.


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## Saheim (Jan 13, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Not to be crass, but genitalia does not matter. What matters is, "Does this person prefer to be addressed by male or female pronouns?" They can live as a man or woman without physically being them yet.




I completely disagree with this.  I do agree that "genitals do not matter", what matters is chromosomes.  If you have male chromo, you's a male.  If ya got chick chromo, you's a girl.  Now you can be a skinny, pretty, effeminate male or you can be a burly female with a shaved head BUT you're stuck with a certain combination of X/Y and that's it.  Maybe I like being addressed as Chinese, but that don't make it so.

That said - While I won't call someone a gender they aren't, I will call them by the name they choose AND I could not care less, when it comes to training.  I'd rather train with a transgender who put forth real effort and displayed well earned skills than someone who's lifestyle I agreed with BUT was a wussy slacker.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 13, 2017)

Saheim said:


> I completely disagree with this.  I do agree that "genitals do not matter", what matters is chromosomes.  If you have male chromo, you's a male.  If ya got chick chromo, you's a girl.  Now you can be a skinny, pretty, effeminate male or you can be a burly female with a shaved head BUT you're stuck with a certain combination of X/Y and that's it.  Maybe I like being addressed as Chinese, but that don't make it so.
> 
> That said - While I won't call someone a gender they aren't, I will call them by the name they choose AND I could not care less, when it comes to training.  I'd rather train with a transgender who put forth real effort and displayed well earned skills than someone who's lifestyle I agreed with BUT was a wussy slacker.


 
You can disagree all you want. It has nothing to do with genetics or chromosomes or anything. It has to do with the fact that they feel they were born in the wrong body. I would love to see an interaction between you and a trans person if you approached them with that ignorant attitude.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 13, 2017)

By the way, I probably could have taken your reply more seriously, but you had to go and use "you's." Let's not forget the "ya." Tell me: what did you do with all the time you saved by typing those things instead of "you're" and "you?"


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2017)

Saheim said:


> I completely disagree with this.  I do agree that "genitals do not matter", what matters is chromosomes.  If you have male chromo, you's a male.  If ya got chick chromo, you's a girl.  Now you can be a skinny, pretty, effeminate male or you can be a burly female with a shaved head BUT you're stuck with a certain combination of X/Y and that's it.  Maybe I like being addressed as Chinese, but that don't make it so.


It's funny, because we do that all the time when we call someone "sensei" or "sifu."   I mean, we're not pretending they're Japanese or Chinese, but we're respecting their preference for how they want to be addressed.  I know from personal experience that some (not all) of these guys believe they are ancient samurai trapped in a modern, white guy's body.  And, really, so what?  If they believe that, fine.  No skin off my nose.





> That said - While I won't call someone a gender they aren't, I will call them by the name they choose AND I could not care less, when it comes to training.  I'd rather train with a transgender who put forth real effort and displayed well earned skills than someone who's lifestyle I agreed with BUT was a wussy slacker.


And if that's your personal opinion, great.  You're entitled to it.  Just understand that when you try to apply your personal opinion to a professional interaction, things change.  Professionally, a school is subject to legal considerations as well as simple business considerations.  It's not personal.  Literally.


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## Druid11 (Jan 13, 2017)

Saheim said:


> I completely disagree with this.  I do agree that "genitals do not matter", what matters is chromosomes.  If you have male chromo, you's a male.  If ya got chick chromo, you's a girl.  Now you can be a skinny, pretty, effeminate male or you can be a burly female with a shaved head BUT you're stuck with a certain combination of X/Y and that's it.  Maybe I like being addressed as Chinese, but that don't make it so.
> 
> That said - While I won't call someone a gender they aren't, I will call them by the name they choose AND I could not care less, when it comes to training.  I'd rather train with a transgender who put forth real effort and displayed well earned skills than someone who's lifestyle I agreed with BUT was a wussy slacker.



Everyone carries at least one X chromosome, the "chick" chromosome.  Does that mean you're half a chick?  What about it someone who is born with the chromosomes XXY or XXYY (both real conditions BTW)?  Should those people be considered some third sex just because they don't conform to what you think it means to be a man or woman?  Gender is much more than just what your chromosomes are.  I see no reason not to respect someone else and how they feel about themselves by referring to them by their preferred pronoun.


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## JR 137 (Jan 13, 2017)

As a curiousity question...

Are these women (whom were previously men) bigger and stronger than any woman you'll ever encounter?  Women come in all shapes and sizes.  I have seen women (born as women and stayed as women) who are over 6ft tall, weigh quite a bit, and are stronger than a lot of men out there.  While the "average" woman is smaller and weaker than the "average" man, women who are a good amount bigger and stronger than that aren't exactly rare.  And who's more likely to attack you, a woman your size or smaller, or a bigger and stronger woman?

I'm not saying you have to accept anything.  If the training hall is no longer right for you, leave.  No one should be forced to be somewhere they're not comfortable.  But realize staying or leaving is your issue, not everyone else's who's there.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Saheim said:


> I completely disagree with this.  I do agree that "genitals do not matter", what matters is chromosomes.  If you have male chromo, you's a male.  If ya got chick chromo, you's a girl.  Now you can be a skinny, pretty, effeminate male or you can be a burly female with a shaved head BUT you're stuck with a certain combination of X/Y and that's it.  Maybe I like being addressed as Chinese, but that don't make it so.
> 
> That said - While I won't call someone a gender they aren't, I will call them by the name they choose AND I could not care less, when it comes to training.  I'd rather train with a transgender who put forth real effort and displayed well earned skills than someone who's lifestyle I agreed with BUT was a wussy slacker.


And you can spot that X/Y chromosome when you meet someone? There's more than that simple bit of genetics involved in gender, even in a purely physical sense.


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## JR 137 (Jan 13, 2017)

Druid11 said:


> Everyone carries at least one X chromosome, the "chick" chromosome.  Does that mean you're half a chick?  What about it someone who is born with the chromosomes XXY or XXYY (both real conditions BTW)?  Should those people be considered some third sex just because they don't conform to what you think it means to be a man or woman?  Gender is much more than just what your chromosomes are.  I see no reason not to respect someone else and how they feel about themselves by referring to them by their preferred pronoun.



The way I look at it, call everyone what they want to be called.  Treat everyone with respect until they've done something to you to treat them otherwise.

Follow that, and life gets a bit easier.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Don't care.
> 
> Female only is a marketing tool anyway.


  you know you are asking for it right lol.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 13, 2017)

For me personally it wouldn't bother me as long as this stuff isn't going on lol.




But seriously it wouldn't bother me personally, However because of where I live I know that there would be more than one student and many parents who would be uncomfortable with the person training in the same school.  Now if you couldn't tell it the person was a man or a woman originally, then that person can fly under the radar and go unnoticed but if the person clearly looks like a man dressed up as a woman then, yeah there will be problems in the school and with the other students.

With that said I can't say that it would be the same way if the woman was dressed like a man.  Just from the U.S. it seems that the transgender discussion is one-sided where the person in question is a man dressing like a woman.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 13, 2017)

WingChunChick said:


> I'd like to preface this thread by saying that I respect people of all sexualies and gender identities and I hope everyone can have a nice discussion on the topic.
> 
> That being said I've had to train with a few transgendered people over the last few years and although they are good martial artists I'm not exactly comfortable with seeing them appear in women's martial art classes. They are built differently both having male parts (I'm talking about the male ones) and are generally larger then most girls, giving them an advantage and making for some awkard situations.
> 
> I'm wondering what your guys's thoughts on the subject and how to handle it are?



If you cannot use your training effectively against someone bigger than you, the problem isn't plumbing... it's training.

The whole gender specific training classes seems more than a little silly to me. Our classes are mixed. And sparring pairings don't take gender or size into consideration.


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## Buka (Jan 13, 2017)

If a transgender person joined any gym I ran I would impose the same rules we always had. I would have to tweak the wording, in my opinion, to be professional.

Be on time for class, every day, do not ever be late.
You will behave as a lady or gentleman at all times. (which I'm guessing would be a win win for them, no?)
You will not drop your hands when you are fighting. Ever. You have to get a mouthpiece and cup (if it applies) by the end of one month. The cup (again, if it applies) will be worn in class everyday.

You can train free for the first two weeks to see if you like it. (up to a month) Then you need  gi, a black one. Once you sign up, that will be your start date. Tuition is your responsibility, don't make me chase you.

You will sign that book, right there, every time you enter the floor for a class. If you do not, you do not get credit for that class and you will be doing push ups for the entire class. Alone.

No shoes on the dojo, unless otherwise cleared with the instructor teaching. No jewellery will be worn in class. You get one reminder warning.

Politics and religion are not allowed in the dojo.

I really can't see any problems. I never had "woman" only classes, don't believe in them. The bathrooms we had were one person deals, a women's room and a men's room. Can't see any problem there. The dressing rooms might be tricky. Would have to have played that one by ear. Might've had to build another one, but no big deal, we had a lot of carpenters.

I can't see any of the other students caring too much, but that's just a guess. Heck, we even taught democrats and lawyers.


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## Druid11 (Jan 13, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> you know you are asking for it right lol.



I'm a woman and I agree that's it's just a marketing ploy.  And quite frankly I, as a woman, am kind of offended by woman's only classes. They're kind of patronizing and implies that woman can't/shouldn't train with men.  Like I said I've only really seen them in my area for cardio-kickboxing classes, which are just martial arts lite in my book.  You might as well take a Zumba or Jazzercise class.  And that makes even less sense to me why they are women's only, if there's no contact.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Druid11 said:


> I'm a woman and I agree that's it's just a marketing ploy.  And quite frankly I, as a woman, am kind of offended by woman's only classes. They're kind of patronizing and implies that woman can't/shouldn't train with men.  Like I said I've only really seen them in my area for cardio-kickboxing classes, which are just martial arts lite in my book.  You might as well take a Zumba or Jazzercise class.  And that makes even less sense to me why they are women's only, if there's no contact.


The issue, in theory, is that some women feel intimidated by being in a martial arts class with men. I don't know about that one way or the other. The women I trained with weren't, but I guess if any were, they wouldn't sign up for co-ed classes. I've helped others deliver women-only self-defense seminars, and attendance is high. Many more women show up for those than show up for an open self-defense seminar, but I suspect that's just because niche marketing is more effective.


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The issue, in theory, is that some women feel intimidated by being in a martial arts class with men. I don't know about that one way or the other. The women I trained with weren't, but I guess if any were, they wouldn't sign up for co-ed classes. I've helped others deliver women-only self-defense seminars, and attendance is high. Many more women show up for those than show up for an open self-defense seminar, but I suspect that's just because niche marketing is more effective.


yeah, I agree.  Women's only CAN be a sales gimmick, but not always. 

I know that getting women into BJJ or MMA sometimes hinges on marketing just to them.  It doesn't mean training exclusively in a segregated program, but having time set aside for women only classes for many reasons.


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## Danny T (Jan 13, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Pronouns are very important to trans-gendered individuals and (here in the UK at least) it is considered polite to ask which pronoun a person prefers. I don't know about you but constantly repeating someone's name over and over gets very tiresome:
> 
> "Hi everyone, this is Jen and Jen is joining us for the first time. Please make Jen feel welcome as Jen is feeling rather nervous."


Pronouns can be tiresome as well: 
"Hi everyone, this is Jen and she is joining us for the first time. She is rather nervous so please do your best to assure she feels welcome."

How about; "Hi everyone, joining us for the first time is Jen, who is feeling rather nervous, let's all be welcoming to help with those feelings."


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## Druid11 (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The issue, in theory, is that some women feel intimidated by being in a martial arts class with men. I don't know about that one way or the other. The women I trained with weren't, but I guess if any were, they wouldn't sign up for co-ed classes. I've helped others deliver women-only self-defense seminars, and attendance is high. Many more women show up for those than show up for an open self-defense seminar, but I suspect that's just because niche marketing is more effective.



I think self-defense seminars are often frequented by people (woman especially) that have no other interest in martial arts besides learning some basic self defense so I can see why women's only classes would be a draw in those cases. For women that are looking for longer term training, I get that some woman may be intimidate by training with men, but I think having them try the training and dispelling their fears would be better than a "woman's only" class.  Women's only classes just leave a bad taste in my mouth for the reasons I already mentioned in my earlier post.  And in all honesty almost all the times I've ever really been hurt by someone in class, it was another female who did it, usually because they assumed they weren't strong enough to hurt me and went too fast or too hard with a technique.  For certain things it's always better to groups people of similar size and strength, but I don't think we need to group people by sex.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 13, 2017)

Druid11 said:


> I'm a woman and I agree that's it's just a marketing ploy.  And quite frankly I, as a woman, am kind of offended by woman's only classes. They're kind of patronizing and implies that woman can't/shouldn't train with men.  Like I said I've only really seen them in my area for cardio-kickboxing classes, which are just martial arts lite in my book.  You might as well take a Zumba or Jazzercise class.  And that makes even less sense to me why they are women's only, if there's no contact.


 From a males point of view in how I see women train and how I see men train.  There are more women out there that feel better if other women are around.  From a self-defense perspective many fathers tell their teenage daughters and college age daughter "Don't be the only woman in a group of men."  He's not saying it because he doesn't think his daughter can't protect himself, he's saying it because he knows first hand of how some men think.  I think many women carry this with them especially if they don't train in any type of self-defense.  If a martial arts school only has men in it, then it's going to be really difficult to attack women to the school.

Many martial arts schools would love to have a large number of women who can hang tough with the guys. The other issue is that for the majority of the women there is a strength difference.  Women from a young age are taught to be a "princesses" and not to be a "tomboy" This perception is multiplied every day in magazines and TV shows.  When girls are reading girly magazines that talk about hair, fashion, first kisses etc.  boys are reading things like sport illustrated, hunting, guns, how to get muscles.  I know when I was a teen the boys would try to get muscles and be tough and the girls would try to get cute and have soft skin.  All of that carries into adulthood. 

In my school we have women that range from late 20's to mid 50's training with the guys doing the same exercises, getting bruises.  There are almost as many women as there are men.  However, we only have 1 teenage girl that trains with us.  We used to have 2 but the other decided to do dancing instead of Kung Fu.  It is especially difficult to get Black women into martial arts.

I think the majority of the people who do "women's only classes" just understand that the majority of women feel comfortable doing physical stuff with other women.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 13, 2017)

Buka said:


> Heck, we even taught democrats and lawyers


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 13, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Pronouns can be tiresome as well:
> "Hi everyone, this is Jen and she is joining us for the first time. She is rather nervous so please do your best to assure she feels welcome."
> 
> How about; "Hi everyone, joining us for the first time is Jen, who is feeling rather nervous, let's all be welcoming to help with those feelings."


ha ha ha.. this makes me feel bad because our introductions is.  Hi my name is. This is..  Smile and shake hands. Then straight to training. I'm not sure but I think we joke a little more when new people first arrive.  I know when I train and there's a new person, I will sometimes open up and express externally how an exercise is kicking my but.  Normally I'll hide it around existing students, but I try to show how difficult that some of the conditioning exercises are for me, and then I push through so they can see that even though it's difficult, I still try to do my best.   I haven't had to do much of that lately since our new student joined who is overweight big time.  But she puts in the works and can actually kick better than some of the fit students.  She's the type of person that makes you feel lazy when you are watching her do her best.


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## drop bear (Jan 13, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> you know you are asking for it right lol.



I was going to mention that nobody any good comes from a female only class.  But decided to be tactful.


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## drop bear (Jan 13, 2017)

We do have a girl people mistake for a guy.  Quite often we have to have a wisper in their ear. 

And by wisper we mean yell across the room. 

I dont think she is even doing it all that intentionally.


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## Buka (Jan 13, 2017)

Steve said:


> I know from personal experience that some (not all) of these guys believe they are ancient samurai trapped in a modern, white guy's body.



Alright, who squealed?


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I was going to mention that nobody any good comes from a female only class.  But decided to be tactful.


lol.  

I'm with you on not believing in the female only classes.  I think women short change themselves on not training with men if they are serious about self-defense.  If they aren't serious about self-defense then it doesn't matter to me.  Competitive training varies.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha.. this makes me feel bad because our introductions is.  Hi my name is. This is..  Smile and shake hands. Then straight to training. I'm not sure but I think we joke a little more when new people first arrive.  I know when I train and there's a new person, I will sometimes open up and express externally how an exercise is kicking my but.  Normally I'll hide it around existing students, but I try to show how difficult that some of the conditioning exercises are for me, and then I push through so they can see that even though it's difficult, I still try to do my best.   I haven't had to do much of that lately since our new student joined who is overweight big time.  But she puts in the works and can actually kick better than some of the fit students.  She's the type of person that makes you feel lazy when you are watching her do her best.


I never hide that. I complain about the fool that designed the warm-ups every time I lead them. My students seem to think I could fix that problem...


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## Tez3 (Jan 13, 2017)

I've run women only classes, they were specifically for our army wives when their husbands were away on deployment, army welfare arranged childcare for them so they could come. It's one of the services available to make life a bit easier for military families. The classes weren't any different from our normal classes ie they weren't for 'women' as such. If we'd had husbands whose wives were deployed they were welcome to come but we didn't, mostly women who are deployed send their children to grandparents/family.
I'm bad on names so everyone gets called 'pet'. 
The women who train with us are soldiers like the men, they've all been to Afghan at least once. There's transsexuals in the military here, it's not a big deal. We have one lavatory and one changing room in the martial arts club, no one cares and just gets changed, they are all used to it on exercise and deployment.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I'm bad on names so everyone gets called 'pet'.


I wish there was a handy term that worked in US English like that, because I'm pretty lousy with names, too. "Hey, you" is as close as I can get, and students seem to magically grow names about 3 months in.


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Jan 13, 2017)

Everyone's talking about the competitive side but it's not just about that. Now I'm all for equal rights and everything but it's not black and white. Women's classes appeal to women who don't feel comfortable training with men for whatever reason. So you can understand why this could be a problem for some. Im not saying people are right to have a problem with it but it is understandable


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I wish there was a handy term that worked in US English like that, because I'm pretty lousy with names, too. "Hey, you" is as close as I can get, and students seem to magically grow names about 3 months in.



It depends on where in the UK you are what is used, down in Cornwall it's 'my lover' addressed to everyone regardless of the gender of speaker or the person spoken to.


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I wish there was a handy term that worked in US English like that, because I'm pretty lousy with names, too. "Hey, you" is as close as I can get, and students seem to magically grow names about 3 months in.


Lol I work in a primary school and it's very similiar to me. Teaching at karates fine as there's not a huge amount but where I work I have to look after 30 kids and though I've remember some names most of them are referred to as you, buddy, boy, girl lol


----------



## WaterGal (Jan 13, 2017)

Druid11 said:


> I believe Real Sports (I may be mistaken) did a segment on a male to female trans woman who was now competing in MMA some years ago.  I think you might be able to make an argument that in full contact competitive sports that someone who was born physically male would have an unfair advantage.  Those born physically male are simply able to build more muscle then someone born physically female (or at least they could before starting female hormones) and would probably be stronger even assuming the same weight.  I really don't want to say that she shouldn't be able compete against other woman, but I do think she has an advantage.  But then there are always athletes who have natural advantages over their competitors, we don't exclude them from competing in their chosen sport.



I understand people having concerns about unfair advantage when it comes to people who are competing at a very elite level where small advantages can make a big difference.  In that case, it makes sense to me that an organization might want to do some research to compare the athletic performance of transgender women who have transitioned (taking hormones, etc) with the athletic performance of highly athletic women in their weight class. If they find that there's a significant advantage, just because of them having had gone through male puberty, then maybe the organization will set a handicap or something.  

But elite competition is a separate issue from just taking a class and practicing together.  In the latter case, I really wouldn't see what the big deal is with that.  They're just trying to learn, same as you.


----------



## WaterGal (Jan 13, 2017)

Druid11 said:


> I'm a woman and I agree that's it's just a marketing ploy.  And quite frankly I, as a woman, am kind of offended by woman's only classes. They're kind of patronizing and implies that woman can't/shouldn't train with men.  Like I said I've only really seen them in my area for cardio-kickboxing classes, which are just martial arts lite in my book.  You might as well take a Zumba or Jazzercise class.  And that makes even less sense to me why they are women's only, if there's no contact.



Well..... some women are uncomfortable doing grappling with men because of their life experiences, and some women belong to religious sects that aren't okay with mixed-gender touching.  So for those two groups, a women's-only class would probably be appealing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> It depends on where in the UK you are what is used, down in Cornwall it's 'my lover' addressed to everyone regardless of the gender of speaker or the person spoken to.


Now that would get me some looks here in the US!


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jan 13, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Not to be crass, but genitalia does not matter. What matters is, "Does this person prefer to be addressed by male or female pronouns?" They can live as a man or woman without physically being them yet.



I don't believe you can choose choose which gender you are, you can't just decide to be one or the other because there is more to gender from a biological stand point. It isn't something I would argue with them about though, there isn't any harm to me or others if they wish to be addressed as whatever they wish. 

I do wish that more gay and lesbian people took up martial arts, my cousin and some other people I know get messed with all the time because of they sexual orientation and I would be more comfortable knowing they could defend themselves better.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jan 13, 2017)

Buka said:


> Then you need gi, a black one.



You earned a thumbs up from that alone, A black gi is so much easier to clean than a white one. 



Buka said:


> I can't see any of the other students caring too much, but that's just a guess. Heck, we even taught democrats and lawyers.



Lawyers! Wow you have lots of patience.


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## Danny T (Jan 13, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I.
> I'm bad on names so everyone gets called 'pet'.


'pet'...I don't remember you calling anyone here pet. I may want to be called pet. Reminds me of my mom calling me pet...when I wasn't being called other choice derogative names.


----------



## Steve (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Now that would get me some looks here in the US!


Parts of the USA I'll get called Hon, Sweety, dude, bro, brah or something else.   Just dont use boy, son or kid.   Those are almost universally taken poorly.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Steve said:


> Parts of the USA I'll get called Hon, Sweety, dude, bro, brah or something else.   Just dont use boy, son or kid.   Those are almost universally taken poorly.


Yeah, but even in the South, where women use "sweetie" and "hon" all the time, I can't get away with it...


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## Kickboxer101 (Jan 13, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Not to be crass, but genitalia does not matter. What matters is, "Does this person prefer to be addressed by male or female pronouns?" They can live as a man or woman without physically being them yet.


Yeah that's all well and good for their personal life and yes that I agree on but when it comes to doing women only classes then it becomes an issue. So if a man says right I'm a woman now and isn't physically a woman yet you believe he should be let into women's only martial art classes?


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, but even in the South, where women use "sweetie" and "hon" all the time, I can't get away with it...


true.  You could try toots.  In the PNW, we really don't have anything I can think of, male or female.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Yeah that's all well and good for their personal life and yes that I agree on but when it comes to doing women only classes then it becomes an issue. So if a man says right I'm a woman now and isn't physically a woman yet you believe he should be let into women's only martial art classes?


If the person is living as a woman, I'd have no problem with it.


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2017)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Yeah that's all well and good for their personal life and yes that I agree on but when it comes to doing women only classes then it becomes an issue. So if a man says right I'm a woman now and isn't physically a woman yet you believe he should be let into women's only martial art classes?


I do, if he's pre-op.   The process is long and involved, and there is a lengthy period of time that a transgender is on hormone therapy and is living as the other gender, but hasn't yet had surgery.   I have no problem with a male to female transgender going to an all female class as a pre-op transgender.


----------



## Saheim (Jan 13, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> By the way, I probably could have taken your reply more seriously, but you had to go and use "you's." Let's not forget the "ya." Tell me: what did you do with all the time you saved by typing those things instead of "you're" and "you?"




The bad grammar was intentional to suggest that even an uneducated simpleton could grasp this basic concept - Feeling that you are something does NOT automatically make you that thing.  Furthermore, it is not my responsibility to play into someone's delusion by referring to them in ways that reinforce it.

If it makes you feel all warm, tolerant, and politically correct to do so..... then do it.  You refer to my attitude as "ignorant", you are entitled to your opinion.  Mine is that allowing everybody to make up an imaginary identity is ignorant


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2017)

Saheim said:


> The bad grammar was intentional to suggest that even an uneducated simpleton could grasp this basic concept - Feeling that you are something does NOT automatically make you that thing.  Furthermore, it is not my responsibility to play into someone's delusion by referring to them in ways that reinforce it.
> 
> If it makes you feel all warm, tolerant, and politically correct to do so..... then do it.  You refer to my attitude as "ignorant", you are entitled to your opinion.  Mine is that allowing everybody to make up an imaginary identity is ignorant


Just as long as you recognize the difference between personal opinion and professional obligation, you're entitled to believe whatever you want.     Mostly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Saheim said:


> The bad grammar was intentional to suggest that even an uneducated simpleton could grasp this basic concept - Feeling that you are something does NOT automatically make you that thing.  Furthermore, it is not my responsibility to play into someone's delusion by referring to them in ways that reinforce it.
> 
> If it makes you feel all warm, tolerant, and politically correct to do so..... then do it.  You refer to my attitude as "ignorant", you are entitled to your opinion.  Mine is that allowing everybody to make up an imaginary identity is ignorant


There's actually some science that contradicts your simplistic view. It's entirely possible for someone to have "male" genetics and be physically female. It's also possible for their genitalia to develop male without their brain doing so. Look up the masculinization process.


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> There's actually some science that contradicts your simplistic view. It's entirely possible for someone to have "male" genetics and be physically female. It's also possible for their genitalia to develop male without their brain doing so. Look up the masculinization process.


Hormones do 90% of the work.   The surgery is really just a finishing touch.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Steve said:


> Hormones do 90% of the work.   The surgery is really just a finishing touch.


And hormones are responsible for a large part of the masculinization process in a fetus, as well. They are more potent in their role at that point, of course, because the body (including the brain) is still forming.


----------



## JR 137 (Jan 13, 2017)

WaterGal said:


> I understand people having concerns about unfair advantage when it comes to people who are competing at a very elite level where small advantages can make a big difference.  In that case, it makes sense to me that an organization might want to do some research to compare the athletic performance of transgender women who have transitioned (taking hormones, etc) with the athletic performance of highly athletic women in their weight class. If they find that there's a significant advantage, just because of them having had gone through male puberty, then maybe the organization will set a handicap or something.
> 
> But elite competition is a separate issue from just taking a class and practicing together.  In the latter case, I really wouldn't see what the big deal is with that.  They're just trying to learn, same as you.



The IOC has addressed the issue.  The athlete has had to been on hormone therapy for a certain length of time (possibly 2 years, but don't hold me to that), and has to have certain hormone levels in their blood.

They've studied it scientifically.  The IOC has practically unlimited money and access to the very best experts.  I don't think it's been addressed by major sports such as NFL, NBA, etc.  Probably because they haven't had to (yet anyway).  I'm sure when the time comes, they'll probably follow the IOC's policies closely and tweak whatever is necessary.


----------



## Saheim (Jan 13, 2017)

Steve said:


> Just as long as you recognize the difference between personal opinion and professional obligation, you're entitled to believe whatever you want.     Mostly.




Please explain what you mean by "professional obligation".  I am not an instructor, but if I was I would reserve the right to exclude anatomical males from an all female class as "trans" is not listed as a protected status.

I'm also curious about the "mostly".  What is it that is excluded from personal beliefs I am entitled to? 

I do realize there are genuine medical issues regarding gender.  I also realize that political correctness has made it taboo to label these conditions as an "abnormality" which has driven society to glamorize and encourage acting on these DEFECTS rather than treating them.  To the point now, we are expected to praise someone's _bravery_ for embracing their condition rather than seeking to correct it.  We are also expected to allow males into areas that are normally off limits to them simply because they either have, think they have, or claim to have one of these conditions.  It baffles me that so many people do not understand the insanity here.

I use the words "abnormality" and "defect" because ANY behavior which is counter to the continuance of your species IS an abnormality/defect.


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2017)

Ill explain more what I meant when I have a moment and a keyboard.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 13, 2017)

Saheim said:


> Please explain what you mean by "professional obligation". I am not an instructor, but if I was I would reserve the right to exclude anatomical males from an all female class as "trans" is not listed as a protected status.



So what if they were post op and had all the female anatomy then? Would you let them in then?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Saheim said:


> Please explain what you mean by "professional obligation".  I am not an instructor, but if I was I would reserve the right to exclude anatomical males from an all female class as "trans" is not listed as a protected status.
> 
> I'm also curious about the "mostly".  What is it that is excluded from personal beliefs I am entitled to?
> 
> ...


That's precisely the kind of language that was once used (even within the psychological community) to describe homosexuality. We understand more of the processes involved now, and realize these are not necessarily problems that require correction.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> So what if they were post op and had all the female anatomy then? Would you let them in then?


Sure. At that point, what would be the reason not to?


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's precisely the kind of language that was once used (even within the psychological community) to describe homosexuality. We understand more of the processes involved now, and realize these are not necessarily problems that require correction.



Because there is nothing to correct, homosexuality as far the knowledgeable people know, such as the AMA and APA oth say that reparative therapy causes more damage than actually fixing anything.

Most problems gay people have seem to be from their family and much of society treating them like a pile of crap. Those things are enough to give anyone problems.



gpseymour said:


> Sure. At that point, what would be the reason not to?



Yeah, but some would still not let them in. Many people don't want anything to do with transgendered people. I myself don't understand much about them, but I will never hate anyone for something that has no negative impact on me. Or in this case refuse them service.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> Because there is nothing to correct, homosexuality as far the knowledgeable people know, such as the AMA and APA oth say that reparative therapy causes more damage than actually fixing anything.
> 
> Most problems gay people have seem to be from their family and much of society treating them like a pile of crap. Those things are enough to give anyone problems.
> 
> ...



That last part is the crux, to me. I know people who get very worked up in opposition to transgender rights, and I've never found one who put forth a reasonable argument against them. Some misunderstand gender identity as a mere issue of self-perception (which it may be in some cases, but certainly isn't in all). Even if that were true, where is the rationale in opposing them? It's not harming anyone that I can see. There are some valid issues to be discussed, but the vitriol is unhelpful.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jan 13, 2017)

Saheim said:


> Please explain what you mean by "professional obligation". I am not an instructor, but if I was I would reserve the right to exclude anatomical males from an all female class as "trans" is not listed as a protected status.
> 
> I'm also curious about the "mostly". What is it that is excluded from personal beliefs I am entitled to?
> 
> ...



How exactly would this end the species? For that to happen every single person would need to suddenly become transgendered and that is just impossible. 

You would be arguing an impossible premise.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Some misunderstand gender identity as a mere issue of self-perception



I might be doing that myself to be honest. I don't mean to do it, I just haven't experienced it


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I might be doing that myself to be honest. I don't mean to do it, I just haven't experienced it


I think it's a difficult concept to grasp. I really don't comprehend how someone can be physically male and perceive themselves as female. But that's perhaps because to me they are the same thing. This might be one of those areas that's just that difficult to comprehend. What I do know is that there's more than just psychological perception at work, at least in a portion of transgender people (perhaps all - the science on this is too new and too incomplete to answer that yet).


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## O'Malley (Jan 13, 2017)

Saheim said:


> Please explain what you mean by "professional obligation". I am not an instructor, but if I was I would reserve the right to exclude anatomical males from an all female class as "trans" is not listed as a protected status.
> 
> I'm also curious about the "mostly". What is it that is excluded from personal beliefs I am entitled to?
> 
> ...



Separating males and females in social settings is actually a behavior that's far more detrimental to the continuance of the species than letting a minority choose their sexual identity. As is ignorance.


----------



## Buka (Jan 13, 2017)

I can easily identify with them. I've long know I was Wyatt Earp trapped in Barney Fife's body. But my friends just laughed.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 13, 2017)

Buka said:


> I can easily identify with them. I've long know I was Wyatt Earp trapped in Barney Fife's body. But my friends just laughed.



You never fail to make me laugh.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I wish there was a handy term that worked in US English like that, because I'm pretty lousy with names, too. "Hey, you" is as close as I can get, and students seem to magically grow names about 3 months in.



Mate.


----------



## Danny T (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I wish there was a handy term that worked in US English like that, because I'm pretty lousy with names, too. "Hey, you" is as close as I can get, and students seem to magically grow names about 3 months in.


'buddy'
'my friend'


----------



## Druid11 (Jan 13, 2017)

WaterGal said:


> Well..... some women are uncomfortable doing grappling with men because of their life experiences, and some women belong to religious sects that aren't okay with mixed-gender touching.  So for those two groups, a women's-only class would probably be appealing.



Without getting into too much about me, I will simply say that I am very personally familiar with what experiences a woman might have that make them uncomfortable with a man touching them, and leave it at that. But the way I see it, saying I feel uncomfortable training with the opposite sex and I'm not willing to work through that, but I want to train in a martial art (especially if it's a martial art with any kind of self defense benefits) kind of like saying, I'm uncomfortable with water, but I want to learn to swim, can I do it without getting wet?

I understand in countries with very strong social/cultural/religious mores about male/female contact that woman's only classes are really the only option and I would say that kind of training better than no training.  But I also live in the USA, where those mores are not as prevalent.  I don't even blame dojos/gyms for holding woman's only classes if it brings them money (they are businesses).  I still find it to come off as condescending pat on the head, that basically says, "It's okay, weak woman I know you can't train with the guys, we have classes for you too though."  Even if it's not really meant that way, that what it says to me.  YMMV.

And for the record I found training with various polite, respectful guys, to actually be really empowering rather than triggering.  Individual mileage may very.



WaterGal said:


> I understand people having concerns about unfair advantage when it comes to people who are competing at a very elite level where small advantages can make a big difference.  In that case, it makes sense to me that an organization might want to do some research to compare the athletic performance of transgender women who have transitioned (taking hormones, etc) with the athletic performance of highly athletic women in their weight class. If they find that there's a significant advantage, just because of them having had gone through male puberty, then maybe the organization will set a handicap or something.
> 
> But elite competition is a separate issue from just taking a class and practicing together.  In the latter case, I really wouldn't see what the big deal is with that.  They're just trying to learn, same as you.



I just mentioned the trans MMA fighter as side note.  I don't see any issues with trans people taking any run of the mill martial arts class.  Heck most female MMA fighters train with men anyway, so I'm not sure it would even be issue with training at a competitive level, just with the actual competition.


----------



## Steve (Jan 13, 2017)

Quick story, not entirely relevant, but close enough.  Back in the 90s, when I was a claims representative taking SSI and Social Security applications, I had a couple file a claim.  Two gay men.  Well, that's how they started.  They weren't technically a "couple" at that time because gay marriage/civil unions etc were not yet recognized.  However, they really were a long term, monogamous, gay couple.  Well, that's not quite true, either.  They were a monogamous, gay couple.  That part was true, but as it turns out, they were really lesbians born in the wrong bodies.  So, over the course of a few years, one of them got to the point in the transition process where he (now she) had the operation and legally changed his birth certificate.  So, now, I don't have any gay people at all.  I had to take a new claim from both of them, because now they're a long term, monogamous, hetero-sexual couple.  That is, until the other guy completes the transition and gets his (now her) birth certificate legally changed.   So, they started off two gay men, became a married couple (seriously, they got married and everything) and then became a lesbian couple.  Those two are lucky they were funny and friendly, because they created a lot of work for me. 


Saheim said:


> Please explain what you mean by "professional obligation".  I am not an instructor, but if I was I would reserve the right to exclude anatomical males from an all female class as "trans" is not listed as a protected status.
> 
> I'm also curious about the "mostly".  What is it that is excluded from personal beliefs I am entitled to?
> 
> ...


Nothing too crazy.  Regarding professional obligation, when you represent a business, you have to comply with anti-discrimination laws.  You also have an obligation to consider profit, or you won't be in business for too long, so things like optics, marketing and messaging matter.  You may personally hate black people, but professionally, you need to get over it.  You may personally feel that a member of a protected class is full of crap, but professionally, you have a professional obligation to comply with the law.  That's all I mean by that.

By mostly, I mean that, while you can hold whatever opinion you want, people sometimes forget that they are not immune to repercussion for your opinions.  If you are an overt racist or bigot, and choose the wrong times or places to share your opinions, you may lose your job or your friends.  You may find it difficult to get a job.  You may find that people don't think you're a very nice person and avoid you.  Shoot, it may simply be that people don't invite you to their parties or want to sit with you at lunch.  Point is simply that, sure you can hold your opinions, and that's your right.  You probably won't be arrested for your opinion.  But you CAN find yourself regretting when and how you choose to share your opinions with others.


----------



## Steve (Jan 13, 2017)

O'Malley said:


> Separating males and females in social settings is actually a behavior that's far more detrimental to the continuance of the species than letting a minority choose their sexual identity. As is ignorance.


Look at what happened to the Amazons in Wonder Woman comics!


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 14, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I don't believe you can choose choose which gender you are, you can't just decide to be one or the other because there is more to gender from a biological stand point. It isn't something I would argue with them about though, there isn't any harm to me or others if they wish to be addressed as whatever they wish.
> 
> I do wish that more gay and lesbian people took up martial arts, my cousin and some other people I know get messed with all the time because of they sexual orientation and I would be more comfortable knowing they could defend themselves better.



I don't think it's about 'choice' more how you feel. I doubt anyone wakes up and thinks 'oh I'll be female today'. It's about a deep seated genuine feeling that they are in the wrong body which I think must be an awful feeling.

How do you know that lots of gay people aren't doing martial arts?



Danny T said:


> 'pet'...I don't remember you calling anyone here pet. I may want to be called pet. Reminds me of my mom calling me pet...when I wasn't being called other choice derogative names.



Luckily for me everyone's names are next to their posts so I can remember who they are, pet!



Saheim said:


> Mine is that allowing everybody to make up an imaginary identity is ignorant




'Allowing'? who are we to decide what identity people can or cannot have?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Danny T said:


> 'buddy'
> 'my friend'


"My friend" works well enough, but sounds odd (at least in the South). "Buddy" works with men (again, in the South), though in the South we actually have guys with the name "Buddy", so that complicates it.


----------



## Danny T (Jan 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "My friend" works well enough, but sounds odd (at least in the South). "Buddy" works with men (again, in the South), though in the South we actually have guys with the name "Buddy", so that complicates it.


I am in the South my friend. 
In my area of the South you will hear:
"y'all"
"guy"
"buddy"
"my friend"
"mon amie"
"T"
All will be considered non gender specific.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Danny T said:


> I am in the South my friend.
> In my area of the South you will hear:
> "y'all"
> "guy"
> ...


Louisiana is a bit of a culture unto itself (as the "mon ami" indicates). In what I refer to as the "gereric South (NC, SC, GA, most of TN, and maybe AL), y'all is probably the only universal, and it's used as a pronoun, rather than a form of direct address.


----------



## Buka (Jan 14, 2017)

Druid11 said:


> Everyone carries at least one X chromosome, the "chick" chromosome.  Does that mean you're half a chick?  What about it someone who is born with the chromosomes XXY or XXYY (both real conditions BTW)?  Should those people be considered some third sex just because they don't conform to what you think it means to be a man or woman?  Gender is much more than just what your chromosomes are.  I see no reason not to respect someone else and how they feel about themselves by referring to them by their preferred pronoun.



I agree wholeheartedly. Just wanted to add - there's a lot of people who look at their X and wonder Y?
(sorry, couldn't resist)


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jan 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I don't think it's about 'choice' more how you feel. I doubt anyone wakes up and thinks 'oh I'll be female today'. It's about a deep seated genuine feeling that they are in the wrong body which I think must be an awful feeling.



I would just like to point out here that a lot of non-cis individuals get very upset when people talk about "choosing a gender" because to them they never got the choice from birth and it's not so much they are choosing to change genders but more that they feel they need to change in order to fit inside the body they were born in. As to why trans persons feel like this, this is something neuroscience and psychology have yet to uncover. Sometimes it can come down to hormone imbalances but this doesn't account for all cases of gender-fluidity.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 14, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I would just like to point out here that a lot of non-cis individuals get very upset when people talk about "choosing a gender" because to them they never got the choice from birth and it's not so much they are choosing to change genders but more that they feel they need to change in order to fit inside the body they were born in. As to why trans persons feel like this, this is something neuroscience and psychology have yet to uncover. Sometimes it can come down to hormone imbalances but this doesn't account for all cases of gender-fluidity.



To be honest even if it were a 'choice' ( which I don't believe it is) I don't see why people should care, too many people poke their noses into things that are really absolutely none of their business. If you harm no one, then it's no one else's business what you do, are or want to be.

I rather hate these hardline people who say 'a real man is...' and 'a real woman is...' and give a whole list of things they should be. I think there is actually a lot of fluidity about all of us that shouldn't be kept hidden or worse forbidden. A real person is whatever they want to be!


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## JP3 (Jan 14, 2017)

Smarter people than me are stumped by the "why" question regarding the existence of people who are now tagged with transgenderism, or it could be labelled as self-misidentification of gender (meaning they don't identify with the gender their body has expressed as, not that they don't feel an identity).  Hard to even explain my thought, as you can tell.  Personally, I have no dog in the hunt, so if it is not pressed on me (e.g. guys insisting they get to go into the ladies room, which was actually on the ballot here in Houston election before last) which is the same room my daughter goes into and it makes HER uncomfortable.... if that doesn't happen, I don't care.  I'm not evolved enough I suppose to say it's OK to cross certain cultural lines yet, I guess.

Back to the subject of the O/P, I would offer that TG folks in a MA class is an interesting question. Should TG people get to participate? Of course. Should they have to go to their own classes? Of course not. Should they participate in women's only classes.... I've no idea. I'd think that, because they are trans-ed or trans-ing, they probably don't have the "bad thing" which standard-issue guys do (apologies for low-brow description, just trying to get this thought out) which certin cool ladies on here have had to deal with (WaterGal comes to mind).

If TG practitioners simply aren't interested in girls (if they are switching in that direction), I'd ... think.. there'd be no issue, save only for the physical strength/speed/coordination/recovery advantage developed by all the testosterone through puberty and after.  It would be a training advantage to need to deal with larger, stronger, faster opponents while in training, so as to develop the skills needed if such were ever needed in the outside world.  Otherwise, I would think that the training would have a false element of efficacy to it.

I'm not saying that a woman in MA can't be a bad-***, surely she could. But, I am saying that a bad-*** woman to other women n class who has never trained against a male who wasn't just giving away the advantage would be, in my mind, an illusory, untested  confidence.  Perhaps not in a purely "art form" sort of practice, where the art is practices for the sake of the art itself. But, for any sort of self-defensive sort of skillset, you've got to test it against bigger/smaller, slower/faster, taller/shorter, heavier/lighter and all combinations thereof in order to Know.


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## WaterGal (Jan 14, 2017)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Yeah that's all well and good for their personal life and yes that I agree on but when it comes to doing women only classes then it becomes an issue. So if a man says right I'm a woman now and isn't physically a woman yet you believe he should be let into women's only martial art classes?



If a person consistently identifies themselves as a female, goes by a female name, wears women's clothes, and has female hormones (whether they're naturally occurring or come from the pharmacy), then yes, I believe they should be allowed in a women's martial arts class, regardless of what parts they may have in their underwear.

Also vice versa, though people are usually much less up-in-arms about female-to-male transition than the other way around.  Which I think has a lot to do with how we as a society view women and their worth relative to men.


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## Tez3 (Jan 14, 2017)

JP3 said:


> (e.g. guys insisting they get to go into the ladies room,



'Ladies room', 'bathroom' lol it's the lavatory/toilet! In Europe they have been unisex for ever, no one cares. In many pubs in Europe there's one toilet with a door and by it is a urinal, quite often you walk past a chap using it to get to the cubicle. No one cares. In the UK we have a lot of public toilets that are unisex, again no one cares, it's just a place to relieve yourself, there's cubicles with locking doors. People go in, relieve themselves, flush, wash their hands and walk out. That's it. On some French streets they have a pissoir, Pissoir - Wikipedia  What is regarded in Europe as a perfectly normal thing seems to have become something else in the US?



JP3 said:


> I'm not saying that a woman in MA can't be a bad-***, surely she could. But, I am saying that a bad-*** woman to other women n class who has never trained against a male who wasn't just giving away the advantage would be, in my mind, an illusory, untested confidence.



So, you are assuming a lot here. Firstly that women who are train are small and light while the blokes are big and butch, reality shows that isn't true. Secondly that women who only train against women ( of whom I know absolutely none btw) will never be able to take down a chap, my, that made me laugh. Thirdly, many men also have an 'illusory, untested confidence' because they use strength against smaller opponents but when they meet someone of similar strength AND skill then they are knackered. Too many rely on strength not technique.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> then they are knackered


Entirely off-topic, here. I thought "knackered" meant tired, worn out, exhausted. Is my British idiom sadly off?


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## DanT (Jan 14, 2017)

We have a trans person at my club (girl to guy):

-He walks in the door
-He goes to the change room
-He trains
-He goes to the change room
-He leaves the studio
-He goes home

There really isn't much time for discussion of what peoples personal beliefs are. I think for the most part people don't even notice that he's trans. I should add that we're in Canada, so we're pretty accepting.


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## drop bear (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Entirely off-topic, here. I thought "knackered" meant tired, worn out, exhausted. Is my British idiom sadly off?



It can also mean castrated.

A knackery is where you cut up horses for their bits.


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Entirely off-topic, here. I thought "knackered" meant tired, worn out, exhausted. Is my British idiom sadly off?



It does but also means ruined, broken or beaten, depends on context. 'My husband came in and said the car is knackered', 'fight him and you're knackered'. Comes from 'knackers' who slaughter old and worn out horses in the knackers yard


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 15, 2017)

DanT said:


> We have a trans person at my club (girl to guy):
> 
> -He walks in the door
> -He goes to the change room
> ...


That's getting more the norm in the US. Less so in the state I live in (NC), but more so in the area I live in than in the rest of the state.


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2017)

drop bear said:


> *It can also mean castrated*.
> 
> A knackery is where you cut up horses for their bits.



Not heard that one, an Aussie version? We have the 'knackers yard' rather than 'knackery', the knackers man usually comes and takes away dead horses but can also slaughter them as well if necessary.


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## JP3 (Jan 15, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> 'Ladies room', 'bathroom' lol it's the lavatory/toilet! In Europe they have been unisex for ever, no one cares. In many pubs in Europe there's one toilet with a door and by it is a urinal, quite often you walk past a chap using it to get to the cubicle. No one cares. In the UK we have a lot of public toilets that are unisex, again no one cares, it's just a place to relieve yourself, there's cubicles with locking doors. People go in, relieve themselves, flush, wash their hands and walk out. That's it. On some French streets they have a pissoir, Pissoir - Wikipedia  What is regarded in Europe as a perfectly normal thing seems to have become something else in the US?
> 
> * Becoming isn't accurate at all.  Remember who it was that primarily left the U.K. to go to the Colonies in the beginning.... Puritans.  If it had been up to me, I'd have asked that it was a different portion of the populace that decided to up and out from England, but it wasn't, and the belief structure is still laced throughout American sociology/society.  When the rest of the Colonies began to fill up with immigrants from other areas, the underlying social strata was already well entrenched.  Repressed sexual adolescents, that's us. We're getting better, though.  Glad to know the English still know everything.  That's cool.
> 
> ...



  I have absolutely NO problem with that statement at all. It is dead-on correct.  There are millions of people with a very secure,a nd false, sense of personal competence and self-confidence because they go to a 1 hour taekwondo class once a week an think they are really doing something.  There are tons of variations on this theme.


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2017)

I eventually found your reply! A very strange way of placing it and hard to read.
 Yes I have an odd dojo, men are an average of 6ft (Scots Guards) women are an average of 5ft 9in. We also have 6ft and some Fijians and 5ft Gurkhas, we have quite small men and quite tall women in fact we have a selection of the population of the British Isles.  

No, the 'English' don't know everything, remember I wrote 'Europeans' as well, as we are in Europe which also sent you loads of immigrants.


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