# Mixing Lineages



## Si-Je (Nov 25, 2010)

Just wondered what you all thought about learning from different lineages and merging what you learn into, well just plain Wing Chun?
Apparently my training was mixed to begin with a dash of Master Fung and Wing Tsun/Tzun? (asked Sifu Emin if he knew hubbie and stated that he'd never heard of him. Interesting.... anyways..)

Have a new teacher now with a completely new lineage and techniques galore.
He doesn't like Dai Sau from the Fung system (don't really care, gonna keep it anyways and use it too. Because it works and makes bong sau practical) He has a different tan sau/wu sau like position that is really new to me and he can stop the WT blitz method of chain punching easy. (I can now too. It's so easy it's kinda embarrising  )
He doesn't like bong sau and I agree with why because it's used wrong so often and get collapsed. (but, if you start with dai sau you get turned into bong sau like your supposed to).

He has no Chit Sau (Fung) but a variant of WT lower gate deflection (forgot the name, no "chopping" sideways motion just goes foreward. Or maybe I was taught wrong. Never used that WT deflection always used Chit Sau) 

*and he speaks of long bridge and short bridge styles of wing chun.* What is this? Don't all lineages cover long and short bridge? Or do they favor one over the other? Questions, Questions! too many questions!

Just some examples of differences there are soooo much more...
But, I was thinking of training as many lineages as I can and putting everything together. (after years and years, of course. just a really looooong term goal. lol!)

It seems that different lineages/teachers seem to teach the techiques they like the best and leave others out. 
I want, I WANT ALL techique, gimmie gimmie! lol!  
Just wondered what some of you thought about all this.


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## jks9199 (Nov 25, 2010)

Simply concentrate on your training.  The rest is peripheral falderal.


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## profesormental (Nov 25, 2010)

Greetings.

It's called learning. Good thing to do. 

There are many different strategies and tactics in Wing Chun. I agree with how easy it is to stop the common straight chain punching methods.

Sun Tzu said that knowing yourself and your enemy is the best policy. Yet ingraining certain strategies and certain tactics is good training and performance enhancing.

Wing Chun effectiveness depends on the individual instructor. Also the training of Wing Chun doesn't mean that you stop being an intelligent, thinking person. Thus evaluate everything and train diligently so you can gain the necessary experience, knowledge and wisdom to know what is best for you.

It does take good mentoring and teachers, so that the learning is very much accelerated. Good Teachers are very, very valuable.

Thank them.

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado


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## yak sao (Nov 25, 2010)

Si-Je, what method do you use to stop chain punching?


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## Si-Je (Nov 25, 2010)

Learning is good, yes.
But what are you learning? And how? Why?

Teachers teach and I'm sure many very well but, Why so different? Pride? Predijuce? Profit? 
Know that it is also the students responsibility to learn regardless of the merits of the teacher and the limits or strengths of the style. 

Why are branches so different? It's the same art. 
And the different spelling in English "characters" is starting to really irritate me. 
Weng, Wing, Ving, Chun, Tsun, Tzun and more I just don't want to know or go there.... 

They all teach severly different wing chun. That is the question, Why?
Ah,.... just had a thought.


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 26, 2010)

The best example of merged lineage is Wan Kam Leung. He has mixed his wing chun from various different sources and formed his own version which is incredibly good

The whole point of cross training is to iron out the weaknesses in your wing chun and make sure it does what it says on the tin. Saying that, it is not good to jump from one style to another until you have become good at each one

I know of some instructors who jump ship when things get to tough for them. You have to make sure that you understand your art and then work on another.


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## Si-Je (Nov 26, 2010)

yak sao said:


> Si-Je, what method do you use to stop chain punching?


 
There are a couple, sorry. Not telling. Keeping those under my hat for now. There are just too many people that rely on chain punching as the end all be all. (myself included)
What he showed me works so much better than bong sau or lap/lat sau.

Give you a hint though:
It is very good practice to make sure that you bring your hand back to your chest when chain punching, everytime.


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## Si-Je (Nov 26, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> The best example of merged lineage is Wan Kam Leung. He has mixed his wing chun from various different sources and formed his own version which is incredibly good
> 
> The whole point of cross training is to iron out the weaknesses in your wing chun and make sure it does what it says on the tin. Saying that, it is not good to jump from one style to another until you have become good at each one
> 
> I know of some instructors who jump ship when things get to tough for them. You have to make sure that you understand your art and then work on another.


 
Oh, I'm not cross training anything. It's all Wing Chun. Just that this lineage has techiques that I've not come accross. 
Granted, My last "teacher" didn't teach me most of the WT techniques and I've discovered that this last year. So, I'm really not considering WT as part of a Wing Chun lineage I've trained anymore. (LT and/or Emin)
I know the forms from Master Fungs Lineage and some concepts, but not alot from there either. (wish I knew more from there!)

And, I'm not instructor Kamon. And will never teach again for sure! This is for the "family" so to speak. For me to know and Babygirl to learn. Everyone else can learn from their respective lineages and teachers, schools out over here. lol! 

Hope you had a happy turkey day all! 
(for you Europeans, eat up last harvest. )


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## hunt1 (Nov 26, 2010)

The question is do you believe anyone person has all the answers? If you answer no then there is no reason not to seek out different teachers . You may learn something!


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## Si-Je (Nov 26, 2010)

hunt1 said:


> The question is do you believe anyone person has all the answers? If you answer no then there is no reason not to seek out different teachers . You may learn something!


 
I think that art has been split up and dissected to the point that there are a lot of lineages or teachers that honestly teach rotten Wing Chun because it's been changed too much for whatever reason. 
I wonder when it all got split up so badly? Ip Man? Must be, he taught the most students. 
Did his students do this? 

I think it would be nice to have the system complete again. 

I'm pretty mad that I spend 5 years learning Wing Chun created by a woman and taught to me by a huge man who taught me to fight like a big man. Total waste of 5 years!
Blitz chain punching down the centerline on a larger opponent, blah blah. Not good, there is better. Like I should fight like a girl! God!

Without the Fung stuff I'd never have gotten as far as I did. So, either teachers are just teaching whatever they want or the system has been compromised. 
I'd like to learn a system that goes back more to the origional nature of the style. I hope this time I've got it, this teacher is awesome! And I wish I could go to class more than once a week.  

I still use chain punching don't get me wrong. I just don't use it like an aggressive large man. And I still am a proponent of deflection, attack and kicking at the same time (with a latch is even more ideal!) Although this is not what I'm being taught right now. Teach says my "boxing" is weak, and he's right. Depended too much on chain punch and kicking and need more work on sensitivity, spring energy, foreward force thought and I'm FINALLY being taught how to break the structure. 

Oh, forgot the Catrell stuff. Learned that lineage years back. Mostly flow drills and step drills. (step drills like: I do this move, you do that move, then I do this move type of training. 1,2,3,) More defensive and focuses on trapping, too much movement. But strange how all this stuff still beats most other types of styles and fighters regardless of the weaknesses.


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## jks9199 (Nov 26, 2010)

Si-Je said:


> But strange how all this stuff still beats most other types of styles and fighters regardless of the weaknesses.



Strange how, with all those adventures and misadventures in one style, you're still locked on the idea that any one style is THE answer...


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## Si-Je (Nov 26, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Strange how, with all those adventures and misadventures in one style, you're still locked on the idea that any one style is THE answer...


 
That's not even the topic of conversation. I'm talking about a style/system that is incomplete because of politics or whatever reason.

I've got a good friend from high school thats wanting to get into MMA and compete, but he really wants to learn martial arts. He's fasinated with Muy Tai and asking me for advice on his plan for training.

I've told him to learn Muy Tai (or a single style first. he's fascinated with MT) and study for at least a year before going to a MMA class. (and he was told similar by the MMA teacher he talked to) For him to get a strong base in an art first.

He'll be in Dallas and there are several Wing Chun teachers there. But WC/WT/VT is not for him right now. He's too stiff, likes to work out (constantly) lift weights and Muy Tai is more to his personality and philosophy right now. 

But,.... We spar lightly and I'm showing him some Wing Chun too on the side. Think I corrupted him and confused him a bit. He was doubting whether he should train WC/WT/VT or Muy Tai, and really likes the Wing Chun.

Showed him defense against shoot/grapple takedown WC style, escapes from arm locks (standing), defense against MT clinch, chain punch, tan sau and pac sau. Thats it. He was really excited and wants to train more. From me.

But, not sure I want to corrupt his MT training before it gets started. I will practice on him when he's trained up though. Never got to play around with a traditional MT person.
But the point is:
He can learn a total system through MT more than WC right now. I'll show him the stuff I know in a year when I get more of it together. Wing Chun is really an art that you have to seek out multiple teachers where he can focus on one right now with MT. And this will be his first art.


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## Si-Je (Nov 26, 2010)

Oh dear, I did forget alot about this site. Moderators are LEO's (I still can't believe that they teach cops BJJ, terrible. Even the air marshals when I worked at T.S.A. did. useless on a plane. pitty)

I met one old u.s. air marshal once, he was awesome. Did Eagle Claw, ouch! 

I'm really all done here. No need to share experience and knowledge when every TMAist truely doesn't believe that their art works in the street, competition whatever. Why train it then?  

The limited midset of MAist hasn't changed, everyone's just got to cross train many styles to be effective. MMA rules. Learn to fight like everyone else is fighting because any other way to fight is wrong. 

Thought it would be neat to chat with other chunners about a pretty serious issue. The state of the art of Wing Chun and why there are so many schools that teach inferior Wing Chun or Wing Chun that is lacking. That's okay. The solution is to just cross train another art, not to unite an art that has been spilt from itself for so long to where it's causing problems with the overall style.

If Teachers would shelve their pride and train and share with each other, Wing Chun would have a total new re-birth. Until this happens, Wing Chun will continue to be beaten by inferior styles and fighters. 

On to train now. Tomorrow I will bring up some of these concerns with my Sifu and see what he has to say and see if I can get more training time in. Will probably have to bring kiddo to class again. (very cool he lets me bring my 4 year old. lol! She's kinda become the school mascot. )

Sorry to sound bummed but, well... I am. It's a bummer to deal with others mental limitations. But, I'm punkrock and don't care what people say I can and can't do. That's why I've won my competition fights using %100 Wing Chun. Too bad can't share that with others of the art. 

Latez,
PunkzNotDed....


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## Yoshin9 (Nov 26, 2010)

Each teacher is bound to be a little different than the last one because not only do they have different physical abilities (including size, strength, age, etc.) but they also have different personalities.

I think learning different ways to do something is a good thing, there are only two cautions I have: 1. In class do it the way the teacher told you to, you are in his school and you are there to learn his way. 2. When on your own only keep what works best for you, no need to clutter up your head with 100 variations on the same technique, 2-3 variations are enough.


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## Si-Je (Nov 26, 2010)

Yoshin9 said:


> Each teacher is bound to be a little different than the last one because not only do they have different physical abilities (including size, strength, age, etc.) but they also have different personalities.
> 
> I think learning different ways to do something is a good thing, there are only two cautions I have: 1. In class do it the way the teacher told you to, you are in his school and you are there to learn his way. 2. When on your own only keep what works best for you, no need to clutter up your head with 100 variations on the same technique, 2-3 variations are enough.


 
I agree with #1 rule: And I do NOT go to a school and try to "test" them with my other WT or whatever. Respectful, that's why I don't chain punch. (I did once and it got just "slapped" away. lol! Hey, teach asked me to. Mental note: "don't always do what the teacher asks." lol!) They're teaching me something else, another option. What I know comes out in a heat, but not on purpose. 
Besides, they can deal with that just fine. 

Thanks for the post. Your right about different physical abilities and teaching, this is common. He's a big guy but knows very "subtle" movements like a small person would be good at doing. Hard to explain. But his physique is not a hinderance to his teaching style. 

#2- yes what I keep for me is mine and "under my hat." But this are not variations of the *same* technique. Their completely *different* techniques! They have the same basics, tan, pac, woo sau.... etc... But there are techniques here that aren't in other lineages.

*ex.* Just like Dai and Chit Sau from Master Fung. Two techniques just* NOT* in another lineage. (right? so far as I can tell chatting here and asking other Wing Chun folks) 

That's what I mean about mixing lineages. Taking all the techniques and putting them together to make complete Wing Chun knowledge. That would be sooo cool.....

Maybe I haven't come accros a teacher that has complete knowledge or their teacher didn't, whatever. It's fascinating all the hiding and sneaking about with technique. Waste of energy.

Teach, Learn, Go, Do! Then Learn more, Teach, Go, and Do Some More!


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## MJS (Nov 26, 2010)

Si-Je said:


> Oh dear, I did forget alot about this site. Moderators are LEO's (I still can't believe that they teach cops BJJ, terrible. Even the air marshals when I worked at T.S.A. did. useless on a plane. pitty)


 
Just to clarify a few things:

1) Not every Mod here is a LEO.  Some are, some are not.

2) BJJ and LEOs:  IMO, basic ground grappling/fighting is very important for everyone.  Due to the fact that many LEOs are on the ground with a suspect, is a good enough reason, IMO, for them to understand the ground.  However, the ground game that they learn, should be different from the ground game that the average citizen learns.  The average citizen probably doesnt carry a gun, baton, cuffs, OC, etc, the officer does, therefore, weapon retention is very important.  

So yes, in a nutshell, ground grappling/fighting is important for LEOs, but it needs to be taught in a specific way.


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## James Kovacich (Nov 26, 2010)

Si-Je said:


> Just wondered what you all thought about learning from different lineages and merging what you learn into, well just plain Wing Chun?
> Apparently my training was mixed to begin with a dash of Master Fung and Wing Tsun/Tzun? (asked Sifu Emin if he knew hubbie and stated that he'd never heard of him. Interesting.... anyways..)
> 
> Have a new teacher now with a completely new lineage and techniques galore.
> ...


 
It's noble to want to learn as much as possible while it's also noble to take another approach.
http://wslwingchun.resolvedesign.com/wong_shun_leung_ving_tsun_gung_fu.htm


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## Si-Je (Nov 26, 2010)

MJS said:


> Just to clarify a few things:
> 
> 1) Not every Mod here is a LEO. Some are, some are not.
> 
> ...


 
didn't mean to belittle. (well maybe a bit. 
I "understand" the "ground".
Studied JJJ
And kicking
And kung fu
and wc
blah, blah.

Do BJJ on an airplane. I challenge you to do so! Just practice it. It won't work.
Whatever, L.E.O.
Worked with you guys, ya'll tough but .... mean well.

Yes, the average citizen doesn't learn much of martial arts. Weird that ya'll always comandere a civilian to teach you MA.
Weird.
Anyways. Delete me.
Thank you.


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## Si-Je (Nov 26, 2010)

Delete me!


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## yak sao (Nov 26, 2010)

Is the problem truly in chain punching or is it people who chain punch rigidly?
I'm not saying that chainpunching is the be all end all of WC tactics necessarilly, but rather than throw out the baby with the bath water, shouldn't the approach be to make your punches more springy and fluid, and then if someone tries to trap them down, your punches would deviate into something else.....kup jarn from biu tze "springs" to mind.


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## Si-Je (Nov 26, 2010)

yak sao said:


> Is the problem truly in chain punching or is it people who chain punch rigidly?
> I'm not saying that chainpunching is the be all end all of WC tactics necessarilly, but rather than throw out the baby with the bath water, shouldn't the approach be to make your punches more springy and fluid, and then if someone tries to trap them down, your punches would deviate into something else.....kup jarn from biu tze "springs" to mind.


 
no. the problem isn't chain punching. It's WHEN you chain punch and how.
Mook is the man. He can punch fast and soft. 
I'm just a gwilo. Nothing like "Shaun seal the deal " lol! 
Not a wing-jitsu expert. lol 
man, sorry,. didn't mean to be rude. Your post is awesome!
Note: remember to kick while your chain punching.  That's just basics
WT basic I know. Train on. Your on the way and beyond me. for sure. 
I still haven't figured why they won't delete me from here.
Frustrating.
Guess they don't want to lose what I've said. over and over and over.......
Bummer.
Delete me!


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## Si-Je (Nov 26, 2010)

I command you to delete me!!!!


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## yak sao (Nov 26, 2010)

Si-Je said:


> no. the problem isn't chain punching. *It's WHEN you chain punch and how.*
> Mook is the man. He can punch fast and soft.
> I'm just a gwilo. Nothing like "Shaun seal the deal " lol!
> Not a wing-jitsu expert. lol
> ...


 

I've come to the conclusion, that a master is not someone who can make a technique work because he's practiced it 10's of thousands of times. Rather, because he's practiced it 10's of thousands of times, he knows when (and how ) to use it at the right time.


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## jks9199 (Nov 26, 2010)

Si-Je said:


> Delete me!


Don't want to be here -- don't check the site.  Delete it from your Favorites file.  Stop responding.  You've got to be proactively coming here unless you set MT as your browser's home page.  Your request has been received and has been forwarded to the appropriate staff members.  

But since I'm here, let me address a couple things.

A few of the mods here happen to be or have been employed as LEOs.  That ain't why we're here, and it ain't why we're mods.  And I'm not modding on this thread, as I'm involved in it.

Very few academies base their DT training on any one martial art.  Very simply, the needs are quite different.

And my sole point with my previous replies to you on this thread has been simple:  Quite working so hard to figure things out and simply train.  EVERY art is good, in the hands of someone who practices and trains diligently.  You're locked on various versions of Wing Chun.  Cool.  Enjoy 'em.  But you walked away from training with your ex-husband, and apparently kept one of his worst legacies: the assumption that Wing Chun is superior to everything else.  Reassess that.





> _No one nation has a monopoly on sunlight.  No one religion, race, culture, or system has a monopoly on truth._


(Oh, and by the way, we can close your account -- but we rarely remove content unless it has violated the rules.)


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## Vajramusti (Nov 27, 2010)

On mixing lineages? In my opinion... Not necessary if you are in a good one and have a good sifu...and you are on your way in your own development.
But finding a good sifu is not always easy.

joy chaudhuri


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## MJS (Nov 27, 2010)

Si-Je said:


> didn't mean to belittle. (well maybe a bit.
> I "understand" the "ground".
> Studied JJJ
> And kicking
> ...


 
You assume alot dont you.  As I said, some mods here are LEOs, some are not.  I am not.  You're also assuming that I'm encouraging going to the ground.  Not the case at all.  I simply said that the ground stuff that they learn will or should be different than the average Joe.  Furthermore, anything we learn, is just another tool in our box.  IMO, there is no 1 specific thing that is the answer in every single situation.  

As for the BJJ on the plane..LOL...again, an assumption that when one hears BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Wrestling, that it means the ground.  There are many controlling methods, including chokes, that can be done while standing.  



> Yes, the average citizen doesn't learn much of martial arts. Weird that ya'll always comandere a civilian to teach you MA.
> Weird.
> Anyways. Delete me.
> Thank you.


 
It seems to me that you're not happy here.  Perhaps you should do what I suggested in response to your request for account closure....don't log on anymore.


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## Yoshin9 (Nov 27, 2010)

Chain punching is just like joint locks, there is a right time and a wrong time, as long as you chain punch at the right time it will work. Why? Because it was the right time.

Any technique can be used at the wrong time.


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## bully (Nov 27, 2010)

I tried a different lineage earlier in the year as I didnt have a choice...either train alone or with a lineage I didnt know.
I took some advice off here...and was lucky enough to get advice from a member who had trained in the lineage.
It was too different, for not just me but some of the other guys who came too compared to what we knew. Different not wrong.
Rather than focus on what I couldnt get my head around, I took the positives away from what I learned.
Hopefully in the future I will be able to train with the Sifu again when I have grown in my knowledge of WC (that is what I think held me back) he was very skilled and even though some of what he showed us went totally against what I have been taught....He dominated me in Chi Sau and every other drill that we did. Not in a bullying way but in a skills way if you know what I mean.
So I think you can mix lineages but just use what works for you.
Si Je I think you should come back and chat.....its only an internet forum!! ;-)
What is a LEO? I was born in August so am I one? ;-)


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## jks9199 (Nov 28, 2010)

LEO is an abbreviation for Law Enforcement Officer.  It's a broader term than "police" or "cop" because it includes all the various special agents, sheriffs and their deputies, constables, and whatever other form of law enforcement officer you can come up with.


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## geezer (Nov 28, 2010)

hunt1 said:


> The question is do you believe anyone person has all the answers? If you answer no then *there is no reason not to seek out different teachers* . You may learn something!



Actually, there _is_ a practical reason why many do not seek-out different teachers, other than just being narrow minded. That reason is the jealousy and clannishness of the various lineages. Most are not welcoming to outsiders and equally intolerant of having their members training under other sifus. It's not just a matter of greed and fear of losing students, it's a whole mindset not unlike what you encounter in some religious sects. IMHO it's something that has really held back our system.


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## geezer (Nov 28, 2010)

Yoshin9 said:


> Chain punching is just like joint locks, there is a right time and a wrong time, as long as you chain punch at the right time it will work. Why? Because it was the right time.
> 
> Any technique can be used at the wrong time.



I agree. Furthermore, chain-punching is something a beginner can learn to apply quickly. A student with only a few months training can advance aggressively with chain punching and have pretty good results, especially against an equally inexperienced opponent. The problem arises when it becomes a predictable habit, overused, often at the wrong time.


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## Si-Je (Nov 28, 2010)

geezer said:


> Actually, there _is_ a practical reason why many do not seek-out different teachers, other than just being narrow minded. That reason is the jealousy and clannishness of the various lineages. Most are not welcoming to outsiders and equally intolerant of having their members training under other sifus. It's not just a matter of greed and fear of losing students, it's a whole mindset not unlike what you encounter in some religious sects. IMHO it's something that has really held back our system.


 
Thank you Geezer, exactly the train of thought I was trying to state.
I'm lucky that this Sifu doen't mind students from other Lineages. He really doesn't like WT (Emin or LT) but seems to like me a lot. 
I think mainly because he understands my meaning and purpose for training and we get along. He knows I'm not going to learn from him and pass it on to another Lineages founder. (I'll share with students though) 
Plus he sees how much I love it and how much the art means to me. 

I do wish WC/WT/VT could all play nice together more and strengthen the art overall. The fact that they don't is causing the art to lose a lot of technique and effectiveness. I think most lineages have much to offer and if they would offer it to each other the end product would be a very strong, effective and well rounded style for all.

Like Emins anti-grappling. I've only gotten a very basic taste of it and it's just brilliant. I would love to be able to get to a seminar or train that aspect more exclusively especially because it's just not availiable in any other lineage and it's a very great contribution to the entire art as a whole. Much like what Fung exemplifies with Dai Sau applications and breaking structure/chi is a great contribution to the art. Combine the strengths of each lineage to help weed out the weaknesses of each lineage. 

I've found I relied too much on chain punching and my boxing is weak. A thought about application of chain punching:

*69-The Tao*
The generals have a saying:
"Rather than make the first move
it is better to wait and see.
Rather than advance an inch
it is better to retreat a yard."

This is called
going forward without advancing,
pushing back without using weapons.

There is no greater misfortune
than underestimating your enemy.


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## mook jong man (Nov 29, 2010)

Wing Chun is an aggressive , attacking system and chain punching or continuous punching as we call it is a very handy tool , but it is only one of many tools that you should have in your arsenal.

Another good tool to have is commonsense , the commonsense to realise when something is not working and change to something else. 

If your chain punching is being obstructed , for God's sake  don't stand there like an idiot and keep trying to batter your way through their arms.
This is one of the reasons we practice chi sau , so that if we encounter resistance we can quickly change tact and go around the resistance or create our own gap in the opponents defence.

Use your chain punching to gain an attachment to their forearms and rip them down , if you encounter resistance change direction and push them sideways on the upper arm so his whole body gets turned and then strike low with palm strikes or hook punches to the rib cage .

If he's quite relaxed and matching your hand speed , start alternating between chain punching and latching in conjunction with low kicking , forcing him to divert his attention and fight a war on two fronts.


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 29, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Wing Chun is an aggressive , attacking system and chain punching or continuous punching as we call it is a very handy tool , but it is only one of many tools that you should have in your arsenal.
> 
> Another good tool to have is commonsense , the commonsense to realise when something is not working and change to something else.
> 
> ...


 
As always, valuable advice. People often look for a quick fix and rely on one super attack to win the fight. You should be flexible and adaptive - include training against moving and 'awkward' opponents

A lot of chunners do not move backwards when they train (ie they want to blitz in with attacks), which is okay to an extent. Yet moving backwards allows you to absorb the opponents energy, and allows you to create gaps in that persons structure. I love stretching a person out and then attacking around that, as it makes counter attacks from your opponent less likely (ie their arms are at full reach with no power)
Especially against grabs and clinches where an opponent is coming in with force - it is essential to stretch that person out rather than try to break his grip from a tight distance 

As SiJe has stated - every wing chun system has something different to offer and Ive never had any personal grudges with how people train etc. Where my frustration comes is when 'masters' claim they are doing something unique or make outrageous claims that they cant back up. There are some truly humble kung fu guys out there and it is a shame that they often get tarred with the same brush because of the art they train in, rather than who they are


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## wtxs (Nov 29, 2010)

yak sao said:


> Si-Je, what method do you use to stop chain punching?






Si-Je said:


> I agree with #1 rule: And I do NOT go to a school and try to "test" them with my other WT or whatever. Respectful, that's why I don't chain punch. (I did once and it got just *"slapped"* away. lol! Hey, teach asked me to. Mental note: "don't always do what the teacher asks." lol!) They're teaching me something else, another option. What I know comes out in a heat, but not on purpose.
> Besides, they can deal with that just fine.



Hey Yak Sao, here is your answer in an round about way.

Now how many hand techniques can you think of in applying this "slap" as an counter to the chain punch?


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## zepedawingchun (Nov 29, 2010)

wtxs said:


> Hey Yak Sao, here is your answer in an round about way.
> 
> Now how many hand techniques can you think of in applying this "slap" as an counter to the chain punch?


 
Performing pak sau is not an effective way of stopping the chain punch or battle punch. You may pak sau the first 2 punches, but the 3rd punch (and anything after that) should slip through to the target because you should be able to punch faster than someone can pak sau. Actually all the punches should travel faster than the slap and get into the target.

Perform a pak da (pak sau with one hand and punch with the other) while cutting an angle and entering from the side on the arms of the chain punching is a much better option. The da or punch to the throat or face, will break your opponents rhythm and jam up their punches, most likely stopping the chain punches.

This, like everything else, is hypothetical to you, because who knows how your opponent will respond. But I have found this way is much more successful to stopping someone battle punching than just pak sau their hands.


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## mook jong man (Nov 29, 2010)

I find that rapidly alternating from Tan to Bong with my front hand while going forward tends to deflect and jam up their punches.

If I find that I'm starting to get overwhelmed by their speed and power then I synchronize my Tan with  a step to the flank so that my body is orientated 45 degrees to him and attack from the side.

Its important that you keep in contact with the outside of his arm so you are protected as you move around otherwise he is liable to read your intentions and Fak sau you in the neck.


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## zepedawingchun (Nov 29, 2010)

Si-Je said:


> . . . . . and he can stop the WT blitz method of chain punching easy. (I can now too. It's so easy it's kinda embarrising  ).


 
Blitz method of punching is not chain punching, it's battle punching, chair hung choi (kuen).  Like stated, it is a blitz of punches with or without a rhythum used in combat going foreward, meant to run over or just over-power your opponent with the intent of striking them.

Chain punching or lin wan choi (kuen) is just like it says, a chain of punches one right behind the other, going on for a space of time without intent.  The difference is you most likely do it stationary, as a drill training a partners response to the punching.  It is done in a rhythum, from YGKYM, but not meant as an attck or defense, just training with a punch constantly coming to your partner. 

Chain punching is no problem to stop because you are drilling.  But battle punching is very, very hard to stop because it's in combat.



Si-Je said:


> . . . . . . .He has no Chit Sau (Fung) but a variant of WT lower gate deflection (forgot the name, no "chopping" sideways motion just goes foreward. Or maybe I was taught wrong. Never used that WT deflection always used Chit Sau) .


 
You are giving the definition of gan sau (pronounced gahn or gaun).  Some people also call it gong sau.  I never heard the term chit sau until coming to this forum.  I'm not quite sure what that motion looks like.  I assume it is a downward hacking motion to protect the lower gate.


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## Si-Je (Nov 29, 2010)

Wow. I'll try to respond to a few different posters and ideas. 

1. This lineage goes backwards. This is really "weird" for me because I just don't know how to do it "wing chun" style. It was drilled into me to NEVER step backwards. So this is a HUGE adjustment to the range of my stance work. 

2. The chain punching/battle blitz thing. It's so much easier to absolutely stop either without using tan, bong or pac sau. I don't know another way to describe it right now other than "slapping" it away. But more accurately would be to say "shutting" it down or collapsing the chain punching movement into itself. It's trippy.

3. Chit Sau is like a knife edge "chop" motion going foreward into the attacker. Gong sau is (to me) like a lower gate "bong sau". Same arm position just lower. Then there is the WT movement that is neither but it sort of "sweeps" like a sideways chop. 
What this teacher does is the same finger, hand and arm position of the WT lower gate deflection but instead of "chopping" outward they "shoot" foreward. 
Like Chit Sau does just without using the knife edge of the hand. Hard to describe in this media format. That's the best I can do on that, sorry.

4. Now that I'm learning a style that doesn't train chain punching most of the class drilling I'm learning the other "options" for striking. Chops, elbows, the "stars" to disrupt structure. (shoulder, arm pit, lan sau, mon sau, hip elbow etc....) They do a woo sau that takes the shoulder of the opponent and pushes them "past" your centerline and turns their body to the side getting their centerline off you. Again, hard to explain. 

5. Now kicking! Ahhhhhh! I missing kicking! Sifu doesn't teach kicking until about a year or more into training. my legs are litterly itching when training to kick! They trap me, I wanna kick, they latch me, I kick.... (they really think that by latching my arm keeps me from doing heel kick. doesn't. But I don't fight with them about that.) Miss my kicking and will have to "shadow drill" (as I call it) on my own as usual no biggie. (drills like stepping while doing tan, pac, bong, whatever sau while punching and kicking at the same time in the air) "shadow drilling" like boxers when they "shadow box". 

I'm still learning this stuff and doing "rolling" lan sau under the armpit of a bigger guy is soooo much better than trying to blast straight down their centerline chain punching or "battle blitzing". For me anyways. If I was a 6'4" Dude then sure, I wouldn't need another option. 


Man! I wish I could go more than once a week! arrrrghghghghhhhh!
I hope this clears up some stuff for ya'll. 
I'm still not going into detail about the chainpunching/battle blitz collapse. Sorry. Not sharing that one, it's mine for now.  Too many men doing WT/WC/VT that attack that way almost 75% of the time. Best to keep that one for teeny tiny me. And God Bless Sifu for showing me that!
Because bong sauing chainpunching/blitz just won't work in the heat of it and/or against a bigger stronger dude. Not as well anyways. That's what I was shown before too. And pac sauing one hand and punching the other hand just puts you into that other WT drill. Still a stalemate.
I would love to share this with you guys love ya'll, but I still have a WT practitioner to deal with that may be watching these forums. Gotta keep a couple of secrets to myself for now until I can get rid of this damn guy. And that most likely will never totally happen. (don't ever ever get married. I'm telling ya! I sure as HELL won't ever do that again! lol!)


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## zepedawingchun (Nov 30, 2010)

Si-Je said:


> . . . . . . . This lineage goes backwards. This is really "weird" for me because I just don't know how to do it "wing chun" style. It was drilled into me to NEVER step backwards. So this is a HUGE adjustment to the range of my stance work.


 
If your opponent is coming foreward and overpowering your structure, you have no choice but to move backwards.  But then go forewards.  It's called recovery.  A weaker force must yield to a greater force to regain it's position. 



Si-Je said:


> . . . . . . . The chain punching/battle blitz thing. It's so much easier to absolutely stop either without using tan, bong or pac sau. I don't know another way to describe it right now other than "slapping" it away. But more accurately would be to say "shutting" it down or collapsing the chain punching movement into itself. It's trippy.


 

I didn't say anything about tan, bong, and pak.  And just slapping it away doesn't work.  I stated to cut the angle, come in from the side with pak sau, but you do that with the force of the pak going forwards toward your opponent, crashing their elbow, shutting it down with the pak and striking with your other hand.  Sounds pretty much like what you are alluding to.  




Si-Je said:


> . . . . . . . Chit Sau is like a knife edge "chop" motion going foreward into the attacker. Gong sau is (to me) like a lower gate "bong sau". Same arm position just lower. Then there is the WT movement that is neither but it sort of "sweeps" like a sideways chop.
> What this teacher does is the same finger, hand and arm position of the WT lower gate deflection but instead of "chopping" outward they "shoot" foreward.
> Like Chit Sau does just without using the knife edge of the hand. Hard to describe in this media format. That's the best I can do on that, sorry.


 
The finger, hand, arm position sounds like gan sau.  We use it in conjunction with a tan sau or a punch, so with the punch we call it biu da.

Gong sau is like a lower gate bong sau?  Then the arm position should be called bong sau.  What I was taught to be gong sau is similar to gan sau, except you strike with the small round bone (pistaform) at the palms edge.  The force is forward and also downward towards you opponent and snap the hand (or abduct the wrist, however you say it).  You maintain the loose fist and a half distance from the body of the elbow.


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## yak sao (Nov 30, 2010)

Everyone seems to have this idea that WT only chainpunches.

As was stated earlier, it is taught very early on to beginners to give them a tool for effective defense, but it's not all we do.......we also palm strike, elbow, fak, biu, shoulder.........


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## cwk (Nov 30, 2010)

yak sao said:


> Everyone seems to have this idea that WT only chainpunches.
> 
> As was stated earlier, it is taught very early on to beginners to give them a tool for effective defense, but it's not all we do.......we also palm strike, elbow, fak, biu, shoulder.........


.......knees,whipping attacks with fingers, grabbing and tearing attacks,locks of upper and lower body, throws and trips..........


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