# Post Training in Taijiquan



## Devlin76 (Mar 10, 2010)

Do you do stance keeping (Zhan Zhuang) as part of your regular Taijiquan training?  If so, what postures do you use?


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## Devlin76 (Mar 10, 2010)

I try to do some kind of standing work everyday.  Most of the time I practice stance keeping with Embracing the Cosmos, Playing the Lute, and Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2010)

Chen Style from the Chen family trains Zhan Zhaung 

Chen Xiaowang

My Sifu (Yang style from Tung Ying Chieh) stands in this as well but also has me standing in just about any other posture from any of the forms. However unlike styles like Xingyiquan and Yiquan that like you to stand in postures for a very long time, my taiji Sifu thinks 10 minutes is good.


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## mograph (Mar 10, 2010)

We can do any pose in a "Zhan Zhuang" way, with some poses being harder than others.

Hey, even standing in line at the bank, looking like a normal person (not doing a "pose"), but relaxed with knees bent and so on, can be Zhan Zhuang.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2010)

Zhan Zhuang - use of visualization - Sifu Yao ChengRong 

Standing a Qi Question


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## Devlin76 (Mar 10, 2010)

I was using Zhan Zhuang in a general way (probably incorrectly) to refer to standing practice and not a specific posture.  My Embracing the Cosmos appears to be the same as the Chen Zhan Zhuang.  
Stance keeping is still a fairly new aspect of my regular practice, so I am only doing 5 to 10 minutes in each posture most days.  

I have never tried standing in line at the bank in a "Zhan Zhuang" way, but that's a good idea


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## East Winds (Mar 10, 2010)

Lam Kam Chuen has an excellent book on the advanced postures of Zhan Zhuang (Da Cheng Chuan) called Chi Kung  Way of Power.

  I consider Zhan Zhuang to be a vital part of Taijiquan practise and although not a regular part of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan curriculum, Yang Cheng-Fu actually placed great importance on it!!! Here is what he says about The Preparatory Posture from the Yang Form. *I hold to my own stillness in order to deal with the others movement; thus the inner and the outer are unified, essence and application are integrated. People all too easily neglect this posture and really do not know the method of its practice or its application. It is all right here. One hopes that the student pays primary attention to this * And of course the Preparatory Posture is Wu Chi the simplest of the Zhan Zhuang postures. 

  As others have rightly said, you can adopt any of the postures from the form and use them as Zhan Zhuang postures, however I consider those will only strengthen muscles and tendons. I think that the traditional Zhan Zhuan postures are the most valuable for the creation of unity and integration.

  When I worked (for a short time) with Master Lam, he would have us stand in Holding the Ball (hands at chest height) for and hour and upwards. I think 20 minutes EVERY day is the minimum to maximise this most powerful of all Chi Kung exercises.

  Very best wishes


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## mograph (Mar 11, 2010)

East Winds said:


> As others have rightly said, you can adopt any of the postures from the form and use them as Zhan Zhuang postures, however I consider those will only strengthen muscles and tendons. I think that the traditional Zhan Zhuan postures are the most valuable for the creation of unity and integration.



Ah, East Winds, here we must agree to disagree. I believe that the path to unity and integration lies within, in that the internal landscape can be explored and unified regardless of the external posture. Connections and unity can be found in any posture, in my opinion, but certain minor adjustments should be made to ensure optimal physical connection to ensure unity and integration. 

Or maybe I should just ask my teacher. I'll get back to you.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 11, 2010)

mograph said:


> Ah, East Winds, here we must agree to disagree. I believe that the path to unity and integration lies within, in that the internal landscape can be explored and unified regardless of the external posture. Connections and unity can be found in any posture, in my opinion, but certain minor adjustments should be made to ensure optimal physical connection to ensure unity and integration.
> 
> Or maybe I should just ask my teacher. I'll get back to you.


 
First I think we need to define what is meant by Zhan Zhuang, if it is only strictly this then I agree with you, it is not the only posture that helps with unity and integration. Santi Shi, Wuji, Jiang Long Zhuang, Fu Hu Zhuang all come to mind. And any other posture from Taiji can be used in the same way if one stands long enough in any one of them, 10 minutes not really being long enough for that by the way. 10 minutes is more for familiarity with the posture and strength, but I imagine if one stands in Play the Lute (Shou Hui Pi Pa) for 10 minutes a day for 10 years they could get the same results.

But if Zhan Zhuang is defined as standing postures then...

Different postures here


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## East Winds (Mar 11, 2010)

mograph and Xue Sheng,

Yes, perhaps I painted that description with too broad a brush!! It took me a VERY long time to realise what Yang Cheng Fu was getting at. His sentence about "Preparatory Posture" , _*"It is all right there"*_ is so simple and yet SO profound that the posture encapsulates the whole meaning and essence of Taijiquan!!! He also says about it "Li ding shi" (Stand in  stillness). 

Incidentally I have now retired from teaching, but my school will continue under the supervision of four of my senior Instructors. I have enjoyed the journey of over 20 years in the Chinese Internal Arts and will of course continue my practise of these arts for myself. I will also continue to contribute to this forum, in my opinion one of the best with the most knowledgeable contriubtors. 

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 11, 2010)

East Winds said:


> mograph and Xue Sheng,
> 
> Yes, perhaps I painted that description with too broad a brush!! It took me a VERY long time to realise what Yang Cheng Fu was getting at. His sentence about "Preparatory Posture" , _*"It is all right there"*_ is so simple and yet SO profound that the posture encapsulates the whole meaning and essence of Taijiquan!!! He also says about it "Li ding shi" (Stand in stillness).


 
Agreed



East Winds said:


> Incidentally I have now retired from teaching, but my school will continue under the supervision of four of my senior Instructors. I have enjoyed the journey of over 20 years in the Chinese Internal Arts and will of course continue my practise of these arts for myself.


 
Congratulations on your retirement :asian:


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## Quotheraving (Mar 13, 2010)

mograph said:


> Ah, East Winds, here we must agree to disagree. I believe that the path to unity and integration lies within, in that the internal landscape can be explored and unified regardless of the external posture. Connections and unity can be found in any posture, in my opinion, but certain minor adjustments should be made to ensure optimal physical connection to ensure unity and integration.
> 
> Or maybe I should just ask my teacher. I'll get back to you.



I really don't think that this is true, and here's why...

Unity and connection is a function of the external posture as much as internal. For instance one would find it hard to find good relaxed connection when hunched in what is to all intents and purposes a guantanamo style 'stress posture'. 
Yes you can make adjustments to release the internal micro-tensions that are holding you in such an unnatural position but there comes the point when your adjustments have re-arranged you into an entirely different posture.

I am guessing that you are using the terms external posture and internal connection to refer to subjective and objective experience and if that is the case I would have to agree with the general notion that connection is found through internal - subjective study, hence the value of Standing. But for martial purposes it would be impossible to properly ground pressure with one's head clamped between one's knees.


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## mograph (Mar 14, 2010)

Quotheraving said:


> Yes you can make adjustments to release the internal micro-tensions that are holding you in such an unnatural position but there comes the point when your adjustments have re-arranged you into an entirely different posture.



Quotheraving, wouldn't it be true that, after making those adjustments, the practitioner would be in the same _external_ posture as seen from an outside observer, but would have changed from one _internal_ posture to another _internal_ posture?

Then, wouldn't the _external_ posture be rendered irrelevant?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 14, 2010)

I am of the opinion that training any type of standing posture be it Zhan, Santa Shi, Ma Bu or simply choosing ward off or Jin Gang Dao Zhui and standing in it correctly for a long enough period of time will train the internal, but after that you should not need to stand in any of them to gain benefit, it should cross over into just about any way you stand or move.

So really, in the long run, how important is the external posture anyway


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## Quotheraving (Mar 14, 2010)

mograph said:


> Quotheraving, wouldn't it be true that, after making those adjustments, the practitioner would be in the same _external_ posture as seen from an outside observer, but would have changed from one _internal_ posture to another _internal_ posture?
> 
> Then, wouldn't the _external_ posture be rendered irrelevant?



You would be correct except that you spoke of connection being found in *any* body posture and I was countering that by offering up the extreme example of postures that are so mechanically taxing or disconnected as to be used as a form of torture.  
Comfort may seem irrelevant, but were you to try to act martially from such a position it would probably result in dislocations and other forms of bodily damage.
Similarly martial arts particularly Chi Na seeks to cause the opponents posture to become disadvantagous and to exploit that weakness to cause damage.

As I pointed out in my previous post in order to return the body to a mechanically advantageous posture from such a posture it becomes necessary to relax the tensions holding you in that posture, which will cause a large scale - easily observable- change. 

The same is true to a lesser degree in approximately correct positions. 

A good teacher can see when you are out of alignment and make the adjustments necessary, though the fine adjustments need to be made for oneself as noted.
If this were not true and connection could be found in any bodily position then we would not train martial postures for any reason other than tradition and you could feel free to wave your arms around any old how and call it a martial art.


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## Quotheraving (Mar 14, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am of the opinion that training any type of standing posture be it Zhan, Santa Shi, Ma Bu or simply choosing ward off or Jin Gang Dao Zhui and standing in it correctly for a long enough period of time will train the internal, but after that you should not need to stand in any of them to gain benefit, it should cross over into just about any way you stand or move.
> 
> So really, in the long run, how important is the external posture anyway



See now I think this is true, which may cause confusion.

Standing teaches you about your own body and it's connections from the inside.

Once you have learned how to keep the body connected and acting as one unit you can find that same wholeness in other postures.

_Other connected postures_ does not however equate to _any other posture_.


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## mograph (Mar 15, 2010)

Quotheraving said:


> If this were not true and connection could be found in any bodily position then we would not train martial postures for any reason other than tradition and you could feel free to wave your arms around any old how and call it a martial art.


I thought that we trained martial postures in order to punch, kick, block, ward off and so on ... in order to fight an opponent. A martial posture in itself is not particularly healthy -- we need to work the basics, find the sensations, get the connection and unity _before_ the martial posture ... not the other way around, right?

Regarding tortuous positions, one man's torture is another man's training, don't you think? 

However, I do agree with you -- I was wrong to say "any posture". There are limits to a man's ability to find connection in postures which stress one part of the body more than its complement. For example: if we were to crane the head forward and do the "vulture neck" thing then tilt the head up, tensing the back of the neck, I'd doubt that it would be easy to find a connection without visibly changing the posture. There would be too much compression on the back of the neck. So yes, you're right, I concur. :asian:

Now ... if we were to define the postures in which one can find unity and connection, what would be the defining characteristics of those postures?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 15, 2010)

mograph said:


> Regarding tortuous positions, one man's torture is another man's training, don't you think?


 
Santi Shi :EG:



mograph said:


> Now ... if we were to define the postures in which one can find unity and connection, what would be the defining characteristics of those postures?


 
That is a hard question since there are postures (in Yiquan ) that are various sitting postures (categorized under Zhan Zhuang) and there are some postures that are lying down as well.


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## Quotheraving (Mar 15, 2010)

mograph said:


> I thought that we trained martial postures in order to punch, kick, block, ward off and so on ... in order to fight an opponent. A martial posture in itself is not particularly healthy -- we need to work the basics, find the sensations, get the connection and unity _before_ the martial posture ... not the other way around, right?



When you recieve (block, ward off.) or issue (punch, kick and so on) in an internal art you should do so from a posture that is connected in such a way as to develop or ground the force into the earth. 
This is the basic principle underpinning internal martial arts, to do anything else is to rely on external muscular force.

You can come at this goal from two directions.

Training the postures and developing the softness and sensitivity required so that connection can be made and the body can act as a unified whole.

Training the softness and sensitivity so as to develop an awareness of connection and to hold steadfastly onto that when acting.

Either approach is equally valid as both ultimately rely on the same principle in their operation.

The health benefits come as a side effect to developing better physical habits and cultivating a relaxed, connected structure. 
A skill I should add that is less something added onto a person than it is the unlearning of decades of habitual tensions which are causing the body unecessary stress. 

It also indicates quite clearly that there are postures and ways of holding oneself that are anything but connected and if it weren't for cultivating connection we should most likely spend most of our waking lives contorted in just such postures. 

Other than internal martial arts and Qigung there are many other forms of physical therapy designed to help people release the habitual postures that are damaging their bodies and to return the body to it's natural relaxed structure that have nothing to do with martial arts (Alexander therapy, zero balancing e.t.c.) but still there is discrimination between unnatural postures and natural ones.



> Regarding tortuous positions, one man's torture is another man's training, don't you think?


Ahh I could see this one coming so I prepared a response in advance. 

One persons training in connected 'sung' postures and the muscular aches and burning that brings is completely different from the same person forcing themself into a damaging posture and suffering pain as their ligaments move out of alignment, their bloodflow becomes constricted and their joints suffer damage.  

If anyone reading this doesn't know the difference I strongly suggest that you ask a good teacher for advice as to what to do and what not to do before trying to develop awareness of this for yourself as it will prevent you doing yourself an injury while training. 



> However, I do agree with you -- I was wrong to say "any posture". There are limits to a man's ability to find connection in postures which stress one part of the body more than its complement. For example: if we were to crane the head forward and do the "vulture neck" thing then tilt the head up, tensing the back of the neck, I'd doubt that it would be easy to find a connection without visibly changing the posture. There would be too much compression on the back of the neck. So yes, you're right, I concur. :asian:


Phew! I was getting a bit worried there.




> Now ... if we were to define the postures in which one can find unity and connection, what would be the defining characteristics of those postures?


 Well that's obvious really, the answer is in the question... Their defining characteristic is that they are all unified and connected. The question then becomes: How do we learn to recognise connection and unity for ourselves?". And the answer to this is "We stand and we observe as we try to become sung"  

Best wishes 

Dave


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2010)

Me thinkest we are getting off the point here... 

We are all throwing around a lot of words and not really saying anything IMO.

A big part of or one of the point of post training is being missed completely, quieting the mind&#8230;. And for the record not all standing postures are created equally nor do they give the same feeling or in some cases result. 

And, just as a side, maybe I am missing the point but I believe that when mograph said 



> Regarding tortuous positions, one man's torture is another man's training, don't you think?


 
I don&#8217;t think that was actually something to &#8220;see coming&#8221; and that is why I posted the response of Santi Shi. It was more of a tongue and cheek response given by someone who has a lot of experience standing in different postures.

Santi Shi is, to many, torture it is not the same as post training (Zhan Zhuang) that is being discussed, even in feeling (internal and external) while standing in it the 2 are not the same and the feeling when finished is not the same either. In Zhan Zhuang you can get discomfort and even some burning but in Santi Shi you can get pain, real my muscles want to jump out of my body pain, I am going to fall down kind of pain. Not joint pain, it is muscle pain but it hurts one heck of a lot more than Zhan Zhuang. I was going to go into a description of the different feelings based on my experience (aka IMO) but maybe that is the stuff of another post, either way your mileage may vary.

But to the point of standing:

A big part of Zhan Zhuang is to quiet the mind.



> cork up your horse&#8217;s mind, lock up you monkey heart
> --- Di Gouyong


 
Basically early training in post standing you think of nothing and as time goes you observe the body and things will move and flow and go where they are suppose to.

Other things to think about in post standing: (this is a bit of an over simplification by the way)

Actually the first thing is correct structure and a relaxed body. Not relaxed in the sense of say a pillow but in the sense of no tension. This is that cotton covered steel king of thing and this is sung.

Next is the part I already mentioned about quieting the mind (aka focus) the mind .

These first two, by the way, are pretty dependant on one another but without them you do not get to the 3rd part which is the breathing and then you start the internal, actually you don't start it, it just starts.

My taiji sifu does not put a whole lot of importance on standing postures. He feels training the form is much better. Standing posture he has done and he has shown me but he tends to feel that much more than 10 or 15 minutes is not so good. And 10 or 15 minutes without training the form as well is detrimental and will cause one to become double weighted and that is not a good thing.

Even Xingyiquan where standing is very important to develop the basics of the style also wants you to work on the form to avoid becoming double weighted.


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## Quotheraving (Mar 16, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Me thinkest we are getting off the point here...


The point that standing is a good practise in Tai Chi Chuan? 
I thought we were staying pretty much on topic and making progress in removing ambiguity, misunderstandings  and reaching a consensus of opinion. That's just my perception of the development of the discussion so far.



> A big part of or one of the point of post training is being missed completely, quieting the mind


You are right, and while it did cross my mind to mention that body and mind are not seperate and that in finding stillness and natural balance in postures we also return to our natural mind, I feared that bringing up such could only confuse the issue Mo and I were discussing at the time. Being that, to paraphrase you, not all postures are equal or achieve the same results.



> I don&#8217;t think that was actually something to &#8220;see coming&#8221;


On the contrary, I introduced stress postures as an extreme example of postures in which no connection can be made, as these are used for torture (the infliction of pain) it seemed an obvious straw man to point out that we willingly subject ourselves to pain in our training, this does however miss the point that there is a difference between muscular pain and physical damage. 
You may think that I was being a smart *** by making that claim but it is the simple truth, I anticipated that response... I hoped it wouldn't be employed, even as it was in jest, especially as it potentially opens the door for other people to misunderstand and maybe even think that it's ok to stand in deep postures and experience pain while doing so without first knowing what is and what is not harmful and whether that is good pain (no pain no gain) or bad pain (injury).  


> It was more of a tongue and cheek response given by someone who has a lot of experience standing in different postures.


You seem to be misunderstanding my motivation in this... I am not trying to attack Mo (why would I, he seems like a nice guy). Though your defence of him is rather touching. 
You see, I have no way of knowing what he does or does not understand beyond what he expresses in writing, not being psychic and all  , and what he 'seemed' to be saying I disagreed with. 

Even when he stated that he concurred I sought to remove all possible sources of misunderstanding (as far as is practical) because I am of the opinion that it is pretty damn important to clearly and unambiguously make the distinction between structurally solid postures that do not harm the body and structurally weak postures that cause damage, not for Mo, but for any interested beginner who happens to read this.



> Santi Shi is, to many, torture it is not the same as post training (Zhan Zhuang) that is being discussed


I should add that you brought this up. As far as I was concerned we were just discussing connection and the benefits of standing generally, to quote the OP, Devlin :

"I was using Zhan Zhuang in a general way (probably incorrectly) to refer  to standing practice and not a specific posture." *

With that in mind it seemed entirely appropriate to discuss essential principles that can be applied to any form of standing. 


The rest of your post I cannot agree with more.


*on a side note I am not sure that the OP is entirely wrong in thinking that Zhan zhuang is also an umbrella term for standing in general.. I myself have always used it as such and when my curiosity was peaked by the suggestion that it refers to one specific posture I did some googling. The upshot of this is that, if it is a misunderstanding it is a nearly universal one. 


Here is a good link btw, it's about Yiquan, but it's good advice all the same.

http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-zz.html


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2010)

Quotheraving said:


> On the contrary, I introduced stress postures as an extreme example of postures in which no connection can be made, as these are used for torture (the infliction of pain) it seemed an obvious straw man to point out that we willingly subject ourselves to pain in our training, this does however miss the point that there is a difference between muscular pain and physical damage.


 
You&#8217;re missing the point again&#8230;Your motivation was based on a prior post and an expected response that did not come&#8230; it was a humorous statement&#8230;.. I can't be any clearer than that

And I brought in Santi Shi to make that point and to clarify the statement that "one man's torture is another man's training", not in reference to your previous post.

And to many Chinese and Chinese martial artists Zhan Zhuang is a posture and it is a set of postures

Thanks for the link, here is one in return


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## mograph (Mar 16, 2010)

Interesting discussion, all. Strangely enough, the more we discuss, the more I want to practice. I'm not being glib (this time!), but my understanding of the subject comes primarily from my experience in conquering, or being in the process of conquering the difficulties and soreness of standing, but also the progressive microscopic relaxations that have arisen from my standing practice. The more I practice, the more information I expect to gather.

In this discussion, I was extrapolating my experience, possibly too far. I now recall that when I crouch or squat, I can either squat in a very uncomfortable way, or I can squat in a way that begins uncomfortably but eventually becomes comfortable as my body slowly stretches into a situation where less tension is required to hold myself up. 

Regarding the definition of Zhan Zhuang, would it make sense to use "standing practice" as the umbrella term, with Zhan Zhuang and Santi Shi as subsets thereof, differentiated by their traditionally catalogued postures?

And yes, thanks for your defence, Xue Sheng, though I did not perceive an attack.


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## Quotheraving (Mar 16, 2010)

mograph said:


> Interesting discussion, all. Strangely enough, the more we discuss, the more I want to practice. I'm not being glib (this time!), but my understanding of the subject comes primarily from my experience in conquering, or being in the process of conquering the difficulties and soreness of standing, but also the progressive microscopic relaxations that have arisen from my standing practice. The more I practice, the more information I expect to gather.


 Good for you


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## Quotheraving (Mar 16, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Youre missing the point againYour motivation was based on a prior post and an expected response that did not come it was a humorous statement.. I can't be any clearer than that
> 
> And I brought in Santi Shi to make that point and to clarify the statement that "one man's torture is another man's training", not in reference to your previous post.
> 
> ...


  No link seen dude.

And as to the rest, I am feeling that you will disagree simply to fight with me regardless of what I may say... so I capitulate. 
You win I was wrong... Now we can move on in a constructive manner


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2010)

Quotheraving said:


> No link seen dude.
> 
> And as to the rest, I am feeling that you will disagree simply to fight with me regardless of what I may say... so I capitulate.
> You win I was wrong... Now we can move on in a constructive manner


 
dude... try it now...or click below 
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84832

You winning or not winning, agreeing or not agreeing was never the issue, apparently I was wrong in my interpretation of your post based on mograph&#8217;s response and I stepped in where I should not have

Please feel free to continue the discussion, far be it for me to interfere 

But at this point. IMO, it is too much typing and not enough standing.


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## mograph (Mar 16, 2010)

Guys ... it was a good discussion, with good points all 'round. We can throw words around as long as it's in the genuine interest of discovering a common direction. I don't think we meant anything that we said to be carved in stone, nor do we have attachments to our current ideas. 

I for one learned a fair bit, but words are just a beginning. If our practice helps us connect with something that we read in a discussion, so much the better. 

Everything's cool.


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## grydth (Mar 16, 2010)

mograph said:


> Interesting discussion, all. Strangely enough, the more we discuss, the more I want to practice. I'm not being glib (this time!), but my understanding of the subject comes primarily from my experience in conquering, or being in the process of conquering the difficulties and soreness of standing, but also the progressive microscopic relaxations that have arisen from my standing practice. The more I practice, the more information I expect to gather.
> 
> In this discussion, I was extrapolating my experience, possibly too far. I now recall that when I crouch or squat, I can either squat in a very uncomfortable way, or I can squat in a way that begins uncomfortably but eventually becomes comfortable as my body slowly stretches into a situation where less tension is required to hold myself up.
> 
> ...



Have you noticed any prolonged soreness or aches from making these changes in your practice? Did you start this in a gradual way?


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## mograph (Mar 17, 2010)

grydth said:


> Have you noticed any prolonged soreness or aches from making these changes in your practice? Did you start this in a gradual way?


 No, never any soreness or aches after the practice ... only during. But in the beginning, I had sore arms and shoulders during the practice, but now this soreness goes away after 10-20 minutes, depending on how diligent I am with the practice on a daily basis. Mind you, sometimes when I change postures, the Sifu comes by and tweaks them slightly, leading to a very nice pain/soreness, sometimes in a line along the outside of the left arm ... but this too, goes away in 5-10 minutes.

I didn't start gradually, for good or ill. I was thrown into a 40-minute session, 10 minutes per posture, with 5 for cool-down exercises. I don't know the standard names of the postures (Sifu doesn't talk much), but they are basically 1) palms down flat in front, 1 foot apart 2) embracing ball, palms in, lower dantien, 3) palms down flat in front, 3 feet apart 4) arms rounded at sides, palms in to body, sometimes facing behind. We have rarely stood with our hands at mid or upper dantien level. After practice, we take a break, then do some force-testing exercises, where I try to maintain connection while doing small movements.

I always feel great after standing. I have no idea if I could spar effectively after a standing session, but I'm not in any hurry to do that just yet.

I'm still in the conditioning stage, to a greater or lesser extent. I'll try to describe my progress, though: to relax my upper body, I let the arms hang by stretching across the shoulders and letting the focus of my intention diminish outside the core of the torso ... imagining my arms as light and empty, not heavy or full. It helps if I relax my hands, which seem to tense up every now and then. 

Regarding the lower body, I balance my weight between forward and back, heels and balls, until eventually, I notice nothing in particular. After that, the movements felt by relaxation become very small, leading to a kind of ripple of connection up my body to the back of the head. It's sort of like when a freight train pulls away and the cars progressively take up the slack ... though it's not just a "pulling", it's also a "filling". 

Once I get there, I sometimes do the Yiquan in/out force testing while standing, where I sense the ball (or whatever) by gently expanding, contracting. I vary the frequency and (tiny) amplitude of this testing just to see what happens and look for a connected feeling. I'm still experimenting -- not trying to reproduce what I've read about, but to find my own way.

Regarding what I interpret as "good", at times I've felt tingly, fat, empty, homogeneous, and felt something turning me to one side. These feeling come and go, and I don't seek them any more, but my favorite is probably the emptiness, where I feel empty, hollow, light, because at the same time, my head seems to clear. Interesting.

I've been doing this for about three years. My shame is that (full disclosure!) I do the 40 minutes only once a week, and 10 minutes three times a week. If I do it more often, I expect to get out of the conditioning stage sooner.

Now that's just me. Whatever happens to me may not happen to anyone else. Does that make sense? What happens to you guys?


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## mograph (Mar 18, 2010)

_(If my "edit" button hadn't disappeared due to a time limit, I'd have added this to the above post.)_

I should add that whenever I stand for any length of time outside of class, I do my best to relax and find some kind of unity in my posture. I'm not one to believe that body changes only happen in class.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 18, 2010)

Chen Xiao Wang teaches standing


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## Quotheraving (Dec 4, 2011)

Regarding names for the various Zhan Zhuang postures I thought you may enjoy this http://www.ciaa.org.uk/syl-yiquanZZ.html

This is from Karel and Eva Koskuba's website hopefully they won't mind me linking it here  The names Karel mentions are as follows:

*Ping Bu* - Even Stance


1. Cheng Bao Zhuang- Holding-by-Embracing Posture2. Tuo Bao Zhuang- Holding-by-Lifting Posture3. Fu Bao Zhuang- Covering-Holding Posture4. Fu An Zhuang- Feel and Press down Posture5. Ti Cha Zhuang- Lift-Pierce Posture6. Tui Tuo Zhuang- Pushing-up Supporting Posture7. Gou Gua Zhuang- Hanging Hook Posture8. Xiu Xi Zhuang- Relaxing Posture9. Cheng Bao Zhuang (Yao Fa)- Holding-by-Embracing Posture (swaying)10. Ti Cha Zhuang (Xuan Fa)- Lift-Pierce Posture (rotating)11. Ban Fu Shi Cheng Bao Zhuang- Half-Bend Holding-by-Embracing Posture
 

*COMBAT POSTS - Mo Li*

*Ding Ba Bu*    - Fixed Stance ('cat' stance)

Each posture to be practised in the following stages: 


Qian Hou Moli - Forward-Backward Strength Sensing 
Zuo You Moli - Left-Right Strength Sensing 
Shang Xia Moli - Up-Down Strength Sensing 
Da Luan Cheng Xu Moli - Strength Sensing with Changing Directions 
Lieu Mian Li Tong Shi Moli - Strength Sensing in Six Directions 
 
1. Hun Yuan Zhuang- 'Primeval Void' Posture2. Ping Bao Zhuang- Even Holding Posture3. Cheng Tuo Zhuang- Pushing Lifting Posture4. Gou Gua Zhuang- Hanging Hook Posture5. Dan Tui Yi Tuo Zhuang- One Leg Supported Posture6. Du Li Zhuang- One-legged Posture7. Fu Hu Zhuang- 'Taming the Tiger' Posture8. Xiang Long Zhuang- 'Descending Dragon' Posture9. Niao Nan Fei Zhuang- 'Bird Flying with Difficulty' Posture


These are the single weighted and evenly weighted standing postures, there are sitting and lying down postures too.
I believe there's also a variant on descending dragon called coiling dragon or some such in which the back leg is lifted off the ground so that the sole of the foot is going directly upwards... needless to say it's not the easiest of postures lol. 

Here's some pictures of these postures.

http://www.yiquan-zywg.com/inc/pic/picshow.php?lng=en&pic=bai/pic1.inc


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