# Traditional Training in China



## Offth3gr1d (Dec 4, 2006)

Hello!

Thanks so much for having me at your fourm! Many of you who are interested in studying or are studying cma (chinese martial arts) may or may not be aware of the situation in the PRC when it comes to studying traditional Gong-fu... (that is the old style gong-fu... shaolin, northern mantis, wing chun etc. vs. modern wushu)

Don't get me wrong, i'm not one of these wushu bashers... calling it nothing more than super sweet dance moves and the like. I think it is an amazing and beautiful art for moving meditation and is an incredible way to build strength, agility and flexibility. I also think however, that few (that have been in a real scrap) would argue that it is effective as a combat art...

That said, it is becoming increasingly difficult to study traditional gong fu in the PRC as the gov. "prefers" that only modern wushu be tought. Most schools, especially schools that train foreigners teach ONLY modern wushu. They may claim to offer shaolin or other forms of traditional training, but in truth only teach a few watered down basic forms.

I was ecstatic to find the school i am at now for many reasons, but mostly because i finally (after several bad experiences) found a school that teaches an effective, practical CMA. The master here Studied Shaolin for 20 years before being driven south, where he also trained southern styles in a temple in Fujian province before becoming disgusted with the political situation. He now teaches only a few foreigners at a small WUSHU academy in a very small town in shandong proviince (home of mantis for those interested in learning this style...) The chinese here DO NOT learn the traditional gong fu. They only train wushu. But between my master, his teacher and an old master who passes on his families liniage of gong fu, there is so much to be learned and preserved here. It's heartbreaking to see that the chinese take no interest in the old gong fu. The old masters eyes lit up when me and my friend arrived and only wanted to study old style gong fu.

There is one major reason why i come to you guys: My master is trying to make things better for the kids here. He is a very compassionate man trying to preserve and pass on the old ways while maintaining a school that obeys the laws of the PRC. In other words, he is trying to have a school that only teaches wushu to the chinese, but treats the kids like humans instead of animals. He is at odds with alot of the local administration. His ace in the hole is that he draws westerners... which means money (the same you would pay at any other school in china) which means growth for the school and more power for him to run the school the way he wants. So... the first thing, is if more westerners come, you can make a difference in the lives of the kids here! Better facilities, better food, etc. Also, if i get more westerners, my master will pay to have a full time northern mantis teacher work here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Please come visit us and help us to preserve these old styles of gongfu. In 20 years, when the last generation of REAL shaolin monks (xing generation) is too old to teach, these arts will be lost forever except in the few locals and many westerners who study them.

Please know that you are coming to a small school. There are no western toilets, there are no fancy accomodations. Don't expect monks flying around in the back yard in silk robes. These things only exist for show anymore, there is so much corruption and abuse of the shaolin image that it is almost a joke to be seen practicing seriously in monk clothing here. There is ample space for training though, a beautiful mountain behind the school that we run up and down 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and plenty of amazing things to learn...

We train in street clothes because we fight in street clothes. There is no fancy show made where everyday people pretend to be monks for the benifit of westerners like there are at so many schools. We eat like the chinese, we train like the chinese, we learn to speak chinese. We also train traditional tai ji and internal and external qi gong.

If anyone out there wants to train sanda, there is also a Sanda Teacher here who has won many competitions. As a western boxer and thai boxer, he is one of the first sanda teachers here that i have taken seriously. He has amazing technique.

I'd love to answer any questions anyone has via PM. You can PM me for my email if you'd like and we can keep up that way. 

Please Join us and keep old gong-fu alive!!
www.chanwugongfu.net

Much love and light,

-Rob


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## Taijiman (Dec 4, 2006)

Can you give more detail on the old style wushu that is taught there?  Like what it's called/consists of, what the training is like, etc.  The website didn't seem to give any info on the old style(s) that you are talking about.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 5, 2006)

Offth3gr1d said:


> That said, it is becoming increasingly difficult to study traditional gong fu in the PRC as the gov. "prefers" that only modern wushu be tought. Most schools, especially schools that train foreigners teach ONLY modern wushu. They may claim to offer shaolin or other forms of traditional training, but in truth only teach a few watered down basic forms.


 
There is an awful lot of real traditional Gong fu being taught in the PRC particullarly in Beijing, particullarly Xingyi, Bagua and Yiquan in the parks early in the morning. late evening and by appointment. But if you go to the universities you are correct it is for the most part Wushu. 



Offth3gr1d said:


> I was ecstatic to find the school i am at now for many reasons, but mostly because i finally (after several bad experiences) found a school that teaches an effective, practical CMA. The master here Studied Shaolin for 20 years before being driven south, where he also trained southern styles in a temple in Fujian province before becoming disgusted with the political situation. He now teaches only a few foreigners at a small WUSHU academy in a very small town in shandong proviince (home of mantis for those interested in learning this style...) The chinese here DO NOT learn the traditional gong fu. They only train wushu. But between my master, his teacher and an old master who passes on his families liniage of gong fu, there is so much to be learned and preserved here. It's heartbreaking to see that the chinese take no interest in the old gong fu. The old masters eyes lit up when me and my friend arrived and only wanted to study old style gong fu.


 
Although it is not traditional there are an awful lot of Chinese that are learning Sanda/Sanshou which is not Wushu and then for traditional there is again Xingyi, Bagua and Yiquan. Also if you go to Hong Kong there is a lot of Traditional Tai Chi being taught and in Henan there is Traditional Tai Chi as well. 

Which Mantis?



Offth3gr1d said:


> There is one major reason why i come to you guys: My master is trying to make things better for the kids here. He is a very compassionate man trying to preserve and pass on the old ways while maintaining a school that obeys the laws of the PRC. In other words, he is trying to have a school that only teaches wushu to the chinese, but treats the kids like humans instead of animals. He is at odds with alot of the local administration. His ace in the hole is that he draws westerners... which means money (the same you would pay at any other school in china) which means growth for the school and more power for him to run the school the way he wants. So... the first thing, is if more westerners come, you can make a difference in the lives of the kids here! Better facilities, better food, etc. Also, if i get more westerners, my master will pay to have a full time northern mantis teacher work here


 
I do not know about the south but a traditional CMA teacher in the north makes pretty good money and teaches both foreigners and Chinese


Offth3gr1d said:


> Please come visit us and help us to preserve these old styles of gongfu. In 20 years, when the last generation of REAL shaolin monks (xing generation) is too old to teach, these arts will be lost forever except in the few locals and many westerners who study them.


Good luck in your quest.



Offth3gr1d said:


> Please know that you are coming to a small school. There are no western toilets, there are no fancy accomodations. Don't expect monks flying around in the back yard in silk robes. These things only exist for show anymore, there is so much corruption and abuse of the shaolin image that it is almost a joke to be seen practicing seriously in monk clothing here. There is ample space for training though, a beautiful mountain behind the school that we run up and down  and plenty of amazing things to learn...


 
Well, for the most part, I agree here. 

Just as a note, there are few western toilets anywhere in China. 



Offth3gr1d said:


> If anyone out there wants to train sanda, there is also a Sanda Teacher here who has won many competitions. As a western boxer and thai boxer, he is one of the first sanda teachers here that i have taken seriously. He has amazing technique.


 
Which version of sanda? 

Won many competitions where? The rules are not the same in China as outside of China and the rules in China tend to be fewer than outside of China.



Offth3gr1d said:


> www.chanwugongfu.net


 
This URL does not work

EDIT: OOPS, I almost forgot there is some pretty damn good Chen being taught in Beijing as well.


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## Offth3gr1d (Dec 5, 2006)

Xue sheng, 

thanks for your additions/questions. Please understand that i wrote this as a general announcement and an invitation for others to join me and not as an all knowing, authoratative guide to training in china. Certainly, there are many places where one can learn gong fu besides this school, both in China and especially in the US, Germany, or almost any other western country for that matter. (one could even argue that some of the best gong fu is being taught in the west now) I was merely putting it out there that one could come train at our school, and that it is difficult to find an all inclusive academy (or at least it was for me...) that teaches traditional gong fu to foreigners. It seems that you have years and years of experience in CMA, and have a strong understanding of the language and culture. That isn't true for all of us, and i know i would have been especially greatful to stumble upon my post 4 months ago when i first set out to explore china. 




Xue Sheng said:


> There is an awful lot of real traditional Gong fu being taught in the PRC particullarly in Beijing, particullarly Xingyi, Bagua and Yiquan in the parks early in the morning. late evening and by appointment. But if you go to the universities you are correct it is for the most part Wushu.


 I was refering to all inclusive academies that welcome westerners. We also guarantee good teaching, where as a foreigner who doesn't speak chinese will probably have a difficult time showing up at a park in beijing and finding someone with the experience that our masters have who is also willing to feed them 3 meals a day and give them a place to sleep. I've you've been to china (without a previous understanding of the language) and pulled this off, my hat goes off to you. I consider myself a creative and inteligent individual and i was unable to find GOOD private instruction in beijing, zhengzhou or qingdao.






Xue Sheng said:


> Although it is not traditional there are an awful lot of Chinese that are learning Sanda/Sanshou which is not Wushu and then for traditional there is again Xingyi, Bagua and Yiquan. Also if you go to Hong Kong there is a lot of Traditional Tai Chi being taught and in Henan there is Traditional Tai Chi as well.


 1. ACADEMIES that cater to foreigners typically only offer wushu and a "sanda class" that teaches what one could learn at a cardio kickboxing class in the states in my experience. You are correct however, chinese students do learn BASIC sanda at academies.
2. Hong kong is not part of the PRC. As i said, one can certainly learn traditional gong fu outside of the prc if one wishes, but that wasn't the topic of my post.



Xue Sheng said:


> Which Mantis?


Northern Praying Mantis... This style is widespread in the area my school is in... (shandong province). To be more specific i will have to wait until the mantis teacher arrives and i speak with him about what he will be teaching.




Xue Sheng said:


> I do not know about the south but a traditional CMA teacher in the north makes pretty good money and teaches both foreigners and Chinese


 I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I'm in the north... my teacher moved back here from the south, and i was speaking about the conditions at the school i am at, not china as a whole. We are in a very poor area and the chinese students don't pay much. We also currently only have about 5 western students as master wang only recently took on westerners here so there isn't a lot of money. As  far as what he charges westerners, it's pretty average.



Xue Sheng said:


> Good luck in your quest.


 xiexie 




Xue Sheng said:


> Well, for the most part, I agree here.
> 
> Just as a note, there are few western toilets anywhere in China.
> 
> ...


They only say "sanda" here. They don't put alot of fancy terms in front of it or diferentiate it as westerners do. He has fought mostly in henan province and also in a few major competitions in "bigger cities" according to my masters limited command of english.




Xue Sheng said:


> This URL does not work


yes, it does.



Xue Sheng said:


> EDIT: OOPS, I almost forgot there is some pretty damn good Chen being taught in Beijing as well.


sweet.


please pm me if you have any other questions!!

Just out of curiosity, have you studied in china? Have you ever attended or visited any wushu academies here? Where did you learn to speak chinese? 

Thanks again for your additions and questions!


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 6, 2006)

First, sorry I missed the Shandong province reference on my first read. My first CMA Sifu is from Shandong and I will say his Mantis was always very impressive. Also master Pan Qing Fu is from Shandong as well I believe.



Offth3gr1d said:


> I was refering to all inclusive academies that welcome westerners. We also guarantee good teaching, where as a foreigner who doesn't speak chinese will probably have a difficult time showing up at a park in beijing and finding someone with the experience that our masters have who is also willing to feed them 3 meals a day and give them a place to sleep. I've you've been to china (without a previous understanding of the language) and pulled this off, my hat goes off to you. I consider myself a creative and inteligent individual and i was unable to find GOOD private instruction in beijing, zhengzhou or qingdao.



Chen Village Henan Province, Chen style, language lessons plus room and board. Also I believe there is a Tai Chi/Sanda/Xingyi/Bagua school in Beijing that will teach you Chinese, but the room and board is up to you. 

So I agree it is not easy for a westerner. 



Offth3gr1d said:


> 1. ACADEMIES that cater to foreigners typically only offer wushu and a "sanda class" that teaches what one could learn at a cardio kickboxing class in the states in my experience. You are correct however, chinese students do learn BASIC sanda at academies.



Agreed



Offth3gr1d said:


> 2. Hong kong is not part of the PRC. As i said, one can certainly learn traditional gong fu outside of the prc if one wishes, but that wasn't the topic of my post.



Actually Hong Kong has been part of the PRC July 1, 1997 It was leased (forcibly) to Britain for 99 years from July 1, 1898 to June 30, 1997



Offth3gr1d said:


> Northern Praying Mantis... This style is widespread in the area my school is in... (shandong province). To be more specific i will have to wait until the mantis teacher arrives and i speak with him about what he will be teaching.



Cool, it would help if people knew the actual curriculum and styles taught. 



Offth3gr1d said:


> I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I'm in the north... my teacher moved back here from the south, and i was speaking about the conditions at the school i am at, not china as a whole. We are in a very poor area and the chinese students don't pay much. We also currently only have about 5 western students as master wang only recently took on westerners here so there isn't a lot of money. As far as what he charges westerners, it's pretty average.



As stated, I missed the Shandong reference, my apologies. What I was saying was that MA teachers in the North of China make pretty good money but I should have been clearer, that is not teaching just, Westerners, this is teaching Chinese. But Now that I say this I realize that I really can't speak for the North of China since my experience is only with Beijing. 

However I should add that there are CMA teachers in Beijing that are geared towards teaching westerners and they are not any where near as strict with the Westerners as they would be with the Chinese student and they are generally charging Westerners more. This means that westerners do not get taught as well. I do not mean to imply that is what is going on at your school, I am just adding that as a caveat to those looking to train in Beijing or anywhere else in China "Buyer beware" if you will. 

But a westerner training in China is a funny thing and I am not saying funny ha ha. Many westerners go to China to train and then when they get there they do not want to train as hard as required, example the do not want to do the San ti training in Xingyi because it is hard, boring and they see no reason to waste their time. The Sifu then either teaches Xingyi light at a high price or kicks the westerner out. So it can be difficult to make a lot of money if you gear your school towards westerners and teach very traditionally. Not that many westerners can't do it or are not serious but most unfortunately we get judged by the few that are not serious so you are right it is difficult for a westerner to learn real Kung Fu in china especially if they do not speak the language or have a translator handy. 



Offth3gr1d said:


> They only say "sanda" here. They don't put a lot of fancy terms in front of it or diferentiate it as westerners do. He has fought mostly in henan province and also in a few major competitions in "bigger cities" according to my masters limited command of english.



Actually there are at least 2 distinct types of Sanda in China but they may be divided along Westerner vs. Chinese native lines I am not sure. 

My Sanda Sifu is from Heilongjiang and when I asked what type of Sanda he said Police not sport, exact quote "I have no use for sport sanda.", this made me very happy by the way. But to the west there are 3 possibly 4 distinct Sanda styles. Military, Police, Civilian and sport. Actually if you ask the average westerner what types of Sanda exist they first say what is sanda then when you say sanshou they almost always know it only as sport.



Offth3gr1d said:


> yes, it does.



Actually we are both right here, yes it does work but no it didn't work for me. However this had nothing to do with your site and more to do with our servers. Nice site by the way, I believe I may have come across it before. 

I see it says 





> We promote traditional and modern Chinese Martial Arts, including Tai Qi (Tai Chi), old Shaolin Gong Fu, Praying Mantis Fist, modern Wu Shu and Sanda.



If I may ask what style of Tai Qi (taiji, tai chi)?



Offth3gr1d said:


> Just out of curiosity, have you studied in china? Have you ever attended or visited any wushu academies here? Where did you learn to speak chinese?



Never attended a Wushu academy, I have talked to a few that have, my first Sifu has sent a several of his students to wushu academies in Shandong and Beijing adn he graduated from one in Shandong back when Mao was in charge. Although his students come back with amazing forms they are just that amazing forms with little application. But they are very impressive to watch. 

I have been in Beijing and I looked for training but I was not there long enough to be able to find a Sifu and train, I have done a lot of research since with the help of family there and will be training when I go back, I am in contact with one Yiquan Sifu, a Xingyi/Bagua Sifu and I am going to look into a very well trained student of Chen Fake that lives in Beijing. 

In the meantime I train Traditional Yang style Tai Chi and have for many years, and all of about 6 months, if that, in Sanda I have about 2.5 years in Xingyi, possibly 2.5 year (maybe less) in Chen. However I no longer train Chen at all and the only Xingyi I train right now is Santi Shi. I have trained other CMA styles but those were years ago and for short periods of time. 

Learned and learning to speak Chinese from my wife. Also did a lot of study of China and Chinese WAY back in my college days (during the Ming dynasty I think )

And please forgive my initial cynicism


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## xingyiquan (Dec 8, 2006)

Actually, in xingyi, santi stand is no.4 or 5 stand regardless Hebei or shanxi style (henan is really xinyi, much different look then xingyi, eventhough both are very similar internally) and there are very good reasons for that, so if one start with santi, it is very difficult for him to prograss in the right path.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 8, 2006)

xingyiquan said:


> Actually, in xingyi, santi stand is no.4 or 5 stand regardless Hebei or shanxi style (henan is really xinyi, much different look then xingyi, eventhough both are very similar internally) and there are very good reasons for that, so if one start with santi, it is very difficult for him to prograss in the right path.


 
Actually the Xingyi sifus I have had and their sifus all started with Santi shi training. 

Also Santi shi is the basic stance of Xingyiquan and without Santi shi training it is very hard to progress properly in Xingyi form my experience but I am far from a master of it so take that for what its worth. Also I am incrediboy traditional so again in my views on training so once again take it for what its worth. Without Xingyi stance trainnig (Santi Shi) it is very hard to progress on the right path. 

One of my Sifus and his sifu both said that you were not even doing Xingyi unless you could not stand in Santi for at lest 20 minutes, meaning 20 on the right and then 20 on the left. But I am talking Hebei 5 elements not Henan or Shangxi. I will have to talk to the person I may be doing 12 animals with soon and get his point of view on it. 

And I am not sure what you mean by "no.4 or 5 stand"


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## xingyiquan (Dec 8, 2006)

I really doubt that they start with san ti unless they learned other arts before xingyi (so they have already "huan jin"), san ti is the most important stance in xingyi, true, but one should not start with it, because it is a high level stance, it's kind like teach a 6 yr old caculus, it won't work. Again, san ti is not a basic stance, there are 24 rules in there you need to adjust your body, for beginner there is no way he can remember all, that is why there are other stance to work each rules one by one.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 8, 2006)

xingyiquan said:


> I really doubt that they start with san ti unless they learned other arts before xingyi (so they have already "huan jin"), san ti is the most important stance in xingyi, true, but one should not start with it, because it is a high level stance, it's kind like teach a 6 yr old caculus, it won't work. Again, san ti is not a basic stance, there are 24 rules in there you need to adjust your body, for beginner there is no way he can remember all, that is why there are other stance to work each rules one by one.


 
And I am sorry you doubt it but that is the case. 

Are you talking Xingyiquan or Yiquan?

Both of my sifu's did have prior experience before he trained with there teachers (as do I) but my last sifu's teacher still expected santi for a total of 20 minutes per side to start and I have no idea what his teacher learned other than Xingyi in Fujian I believe. My last Sifu also required Santi training as part of the basic beginner class. And the few I have talked to that have trained longer also train santi and a lot of it. And as far as I know Santi shi is basic stuff for training in China, but I have not trained there I have just talked to those that have. 

There is another school of thought that I am not as familiar with that is very involved and very good that comes from Tim Cartmell (I believe), is that your teacher? And regardless how long have you trained Xingyi?

Also I am aware of Yueh fuei's rules, and the 9 essences but that is still not 24. What 24 rules are you referring to?


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## xingyiquan (Dec 8, 2006)

I never said you should not train in san ti, I simply said when you start learn xingyi, you should not start with san ti, because san ti is a high level stance in xingyi. 24 rules is "ba zi jiu ge".


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## Taijiman (Dec 8, 2006)

> And I am not sure what you mean by "no.4 or 5 stand"


Well, in xingyi quan, at least some branches, there's more than one posture you'll train as standing qigong.  I've done only very little xingyi quan myself, and I wasn't trained in any ground up traditional type manner in that style.


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## Taijiman (Dec 8, 2006)

Hey xingyiquan, what branch of xingyi do you train in?  Where ya learning it from?


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## xingyiquan (Dec 8, 2006)

In xingyi, there are 24 postures for standing, all start with wuji and end with wuji which complete a circle, ofcourse with beginning wuji, one just start to learn "song" and ending wuji everything in xingyi should be include in there. In the middle there are "hunyuan", "santi", "xianglong", "fuhu" posture etc. each one is little deeper then the previous one, each one is little difficult than the previous one too, but no one actually did all 24, usually 6-8 should be sufficient enough, "santi" usually after "hunyuan". Anyway it is hard for me to explain, just little information I knew about xingyi. I start xingyi with Heibei style, liu qilan-li cunyi, and also friends of mine from shanxi song style song shirong- song huchen-li xuzhou tought me their style as well.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 9, 2006)

xingyiquan said:


> In xingyi, there are 24 postures for standing,


What style?
What style do you train?
How long have you trained Xingyi?


And as a note on Santi, yes it is hard and that is why you stand in it so long to align and adjust the body before starting training forms. It is also why so many xingyi teachers including mine have made all beginning students stand in Santi and stand there for so long and more than once I have heard my last sifu say "If something really hurts tell me, other wise shut up and stand"


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## xingyiquan (Dec 9, 2006)

I have explained very clear in my privious post what style I am trainning in xingyi, if you can't underestand I don't know how else should I tell you. I have been trainning in xingyi for 5 yrs now. I am not here to question your sifu or your style, I really don't care, like I said it's something that I knew and it might help someone who wants to train in xingyi.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 9, 2006)

xingyiquan said:


> I have explained very clear in my privious post what style I am trainning in xingyi, if you can't underestand I don't know how else should I tell you. I have been trainning in xingyi for 5 yrs now. I am not here to question your sifu or your style, I really don't care, like I said it's something that I knew and it might help someone who wants to train in xingyi.


 
I understood very well actually. You said you started in Hebei but learned some Shanxi and now you have told me you have trained for 5 years. I am asking which style you train Hebei, Shanxi, mixed, both, etc?

As for the statement 



xingyiquan said:


> I am not here to question your sifu or your style, I really don't care


 
 Doubtful, based on the following statements you have already made



xingyiquan said:


> really doubt that they start with san ti


 


xingyiquan said:


> one should not start with it, because it is a high level stance, it's kind like teach a 6 yr old caculus, it won't work


 


xingyiquan said:


> so if one start with santi, it is very difficult for him to prograss in the right path."


 
I have talked with many Xingyi people, some in China, all more advanced than I, and it is pretty easy to be more advanced than I in Xingyi I have only 2.5 years, and I am currently unable to get back to mi Xingyi sifu's class, but all have said pretty much the same thing, you start with Santi and it is where you learn body alignment and power and that is why you stand in it for so long and why it is so important. 

But I believe it is Che style that has other stances that they may train prior to Santi.


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## xingyiquan (Dec 9, 2006)

You do what you want to do.


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## pstarr (Dec 9, 2006)

Actually, if you would properly punctuate your sentence structure and follow some modicum of courtesy, it would help.  I've been practicing Xingyi (Shanxi style) for most of my life and I had trouble understanding what you were saying-

    And, yes, my teacher started with Wuji but from there we moved to Santi...


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## Offth3gr1d (Dec 10, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> And please forgive my initial cynicism


 
No apology  Nessicary!! As a noob posting a long winded request for people to leave their country and come to china and study, i expect some probing and even some cynicisim from the vets. It keeps the board healthy, and bs free.

My master cannot write in pinyin very well, but there is someone here who can. During my chinese lesson this evening i will try and co-ordinate with him and master wang and get the romanized spellings of the styles taught here, as this would be of great benifit to those looking to study (or not study) a particular style.

I will try and post in the next week... I usually get up to the internet cafe in the small village near the school about 1-2 times a week if i can.


Talk to you soon

-Rob


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 11, 2006)

I look forward to the style list.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 22, 2006)

I felt this was applicable to what has been going on in this post. It is a quote from Wang Ji Wu (1891  1991) who was a long time Xingyi practitioner who was highly respected. 



> All practice starts with San Ti standing. After walking through the forms, one must follow correct sequence of training and must not omit a step. All subsequent movement is founded in San Ti Shi. This posture is the gate of the Way, it is the root and the central nucleus of the art of Xing Yi Quan  Wang Ji Wu


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## pstarr (Dec 22, 2006)

Absolutely!  My own lineage goes back to Zhang Zhaodong and that's what he emphasized in the initial stages of training.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 22, 2007)

Just a small addition.

My Xingyi Sifu started a new group and introduced both Wuji and Santi to them.


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 14, 2007)

I had a look at the website and have to say that it's not very cheap where you're at. If you rent an apartment and pay for three meals a day yourself and water/electricity/gas it should still only amount to no greater than 1500&#20803; in an average Chinese *CITY* (Less if it's a small apartment and you go to the local market for the food and don't eat out). You are literaly giving them 1500&#20803; a month or more. With five foreign students that is a shitload. Their expenses go down the more students they get and the profits go up.

     I've seen this countless times in Yangshuo, where they have more than three "ACADEMIES". Guess how much I pay to study Sanda here? Absolutely nothing (But I have a special relationship with my Shifu so don't come running over here to get free lessons!). Other students pay 160-200&#20803; a month, a fraction of what you're paying. And the quality of the lessons is superb. I remember a "school" where the students had to pay 1600&#20803; a week. And they were learning ********. I'm sorry mate, but it looks like you're getting screwed yet again. I HOPE THAT YOU ARE SUPPLEMENTING YOUR STUDIES WITH... TEACHING ENGLISH, OR SOMETHING. Or you are going to leave poor... But, then again, if you're satisfied then it's not a problem.

     - Maarten Sebastiaan Franks Spijker


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