# Two questions about Kosho Ryu



## Corrmaz (Jul 13, 2015)

1) I've heard several times that James Mitose created Kosho Ryu by combing RyuKyu and JiuJitsu. Is there any truth to that. 
2) I was very impressed with this video




Are there other martial arts that have thus octagon principle in them?
Thank you for any replies.


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## punisher73 (Jul 13, 2015)

Honest truth is that no one knows for sure where Mitose got his training and what he taught.

Early in his history he claimed to be related to Choki Motobu, and what he taught was early okinawan karate (Shorin Ryu lineage).  Much of his first book, "What is Self-Defense" came from Motobu.  Including the coat of arms shown in the book.  This claim has been refuted by Chosei Motobu, (Choki's son).

Later on, he started to claim that he was the 23rd Grandmaster in Kosho-Ryu and was sent to Japan as a child and trained in a temple there and was passing on his family's art.  No one has actually been able to trace the family name, temple or art in any of the Japanese lineages.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 13, 2015)

While you can't believe everything you read on the Internet. I read an interview with Professor Chow where he said Mitose was nothing more than a con man. But they worked together because chow had the martial art and Mitose could sell it.  In his book Ed Parker recalls meeting Mitose and found him very un impressive.  That being said my own research has me to believe Mitose probably new very little martial arts if anything.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 13, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> While you can't believe everything you read on the Internet. I read an interview with Professor Chow where he said Mitose was nothing more than a con man. But they worked together because chow had the martial art and Mitose could sell it.  In his book Ed Parker recalls meeting Mitose and found him very un impressive.  That being said my own research has me to believe Mitose probably new very little martial arts if anything.



I have no horse in this race but I don't think Bruce Juchnik, Thomas Mitose or Mark Mitose would agree...but then he may or may not have their reasons for that.

There is a Bruce Juchnik lineage Kosho school near me however and I have to admit the sensei there is a damn impressive martial artist


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 13, 2015)

What we know is that there is a lack of any legitimate or even plausible lineage for James Mitose. The lineages we are told seem very unlikely.  Professor Chow says he studied under his father. This we can belive.  We have no reason to doubt it. That Mitose studied with Mutobu just don't add up chronologically. The other claim that he is a grand master also does not hold up to much scutiny.  That being said what are we to belive.  The fact that successive generations are good martial artists  has no bearing on lineage.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 13, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> What we know is that there is a lack of any legitimate or even plausible lineage for James Mitose. The lineages we are told seem very unlikely.  Professor Chow says he studied under his father. This we can belive.  We have no reason to doubt it. That Mitose studied with Mutobu just don't add up chronologically. The other claim that he is a grand master also does not hold up to much scutiny.  That being said what are we to belive.  The fact that successive generations are good martial artists  has no bearing on lineage.



Like I said, I have no horse in this race and I have not studied the history of it. I will say this however, I have seen Mitose's book and what he is showing in there is viable, but what I find interesting is that it is not what I see from Juchnik or his student in my area, but I do like what I see


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 14, 2015)

since this thread came up, i just did some internet research on Mitose's book.  after looking at the book, my opinion is that what is shown seems to be very common Kenpo style techniques.  kenpo karate has a very different feel and way of moving. both Okinawan and Japanese karate do not share this feel of movement.  where ever and who ever the creator was, all kenpo/ kempo and related styles share this underlying current.  we may never know the lineage of the style.  but looking at other arts there are so many tall tales and made up histories that everyone turns a blind eye too, it seems a little unfair to single out kenpo for historical inaccuracies.  my issue is with the modern practitioners who still try to push a false backround to make themselves look better and more legit rather than making the quality of their art the defining factor.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 14, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> my issue is with the modern practitioners who still try to push a false backround to make themselves look better and more legit rather than making the quality of their art the defining factor.



Welcome to my world, try training Chinese martial arts, all sorts of false claims, uneducated claims, misuse of the language....it can be annoying, and at times rather comical


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## seasoned (Jul 14, 2015)

This was the OP question below. Lets not get sidetracked with who studied what.  

"Are there other martial arts that have this octagon principle in them?
Thank you for any replies.".

As long as we stay with the OP there will be no issues.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 14, 2015)

Actually the OP had two questions the first was about the creation of the style.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 14, 2015)

Weird double post thing going on with me everywhere today....just ignore this one


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 14, 2015)

The other question was...



> [I've heard several times that James Mitose created Kosho Ryu by combing RyuKyu and JiuJitsu. Is there any truth to that.



Which was being discussed save my one comment on CMA and welcome to my world



seasoned said:


> This was the OP question below. Lets not get sidetracked with who studied what.
> 
> "Are there other martial arts that have this octagon principle in them?
> Thank you for any replies.".
> ...



if you look at the octagon principles and basic philosophy of kosho, and I have, you find a lot of similarities to CMA styles..... and with that...I'm out


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## TaiChiTJ (Jul 15, 2015)

ok I will throw in my two cents. I have spent a lot of time on the internet researching the Kosho material.  I purchased Kyoshi Jeff Driscoll's book and some video material from Bruce Juchnik, and I viewed the video that starts this thread months ago.

Xue Sheng is right. Welcome to the wonderful world of martial arts history, where we face what is being presented to us and not much makes any logical sense.

These men move in a way that is unique. Whether it is the Canadian man in the video that starts this thread, Jeff Driscoll, Juchnik or Mitose's son Thomas Barro Mitose, they cannot, I believe, be lumped together with mainstream Ken/mpo that came down through others in the Chow line. Watch Professor N. Ortega, a student of Thomas Barro Mitose's, I believe. Specifically, watch his videos that say Kosho at the beginning of his Advanced Kajukenbo Self Defense System System. This is Kosho principles blended into the Kaju material.

Xue Sheng is also correct that much of what they do seems to come from Chinese influence.

So we simply may never know the exact truth of it all. However we have the teachers of the system, explaining it so that is definitely good.

BTW - we have two excellent rescources on MartialTalk for Kosho Ryu Kempo, Sensei Bonk and Tshadowchaser. Sensei Bonk has made videos of Kosho principles that can be viewed on YouTube. His name here is Kosho, I believe. It is awesome we have Kosho knowledge on this site!


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 16, 2015)

TaiChiTJ said:


> BTW - we have two excellent rescources on MartialTalk for Kosho Ryu Kempo, Sensei Bonk and Tshadowchaser. Sensei Bonk has made videos of Kosho principles that can be viewed on YouTube. His name here is Kosho, I believe. It is awesome we have Kosho knowledge on this site!



Also a poster that went by the name Kosho. But then I do not know his real name and I am not sure what screen name Prof Bonk used


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