# Ken/mpo-Karate-Kajukenbo



## GAB (Oct 27, 2004)

I would like to start a discussion on Martial Artists opinions (yes opinions) and their (thoughts on the technical side) of the names of various Martial Arts that came from China, Okinawa, Japan, Hawaii, Korea, Phillipines or Filipines.

Lineage seems to be very important to some, others in the Arts don't really care, they are so misinformed that they are totally confused, so please don't give them any facts, for they will argue until Jupitars moon "Titan" will become a new earth.

Anyone want to participate??

I will start out with...There once was a man named "Buddha" (because we are speaking english). You can correct me on that, so we will be able to get started.

Regards, Gary


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## Blindside (Oct 27, 2004)

....and he sat under a fig tree.

What is the point of this thread????

Lamont


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## GAB (Oct 27, 2004)

Blindside said:
			
		

> ....and he sat under a fig tree.
> 
> What is the point of this thread????
> 
> Lamont


 
Why does the sun come up in the east and set in the west?

Regards, Gary


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 27, 2004)

Buddha wondered why his parents named him Buddha, "after all" he thought, "Buddha is a title". He then reached over and smashed a spider.


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## Michael Billings (Oct 27, 2004)

Before the thread gets move to the Comedy Cafe ... not your intent Gary, I know.



> *I would like to start a discussion on Martial Artists opinions (yes opinions) and their (thoughts on the technical side) of the names of various Martial Arts that came from China, Okinawa, Japan, Hawaii, Korea, Phillipines or Filipines.
> *
> Lineage seems to be very important to some, others in the Arts don't really care, they are so misinformed that they are totally confused, so please _don't give them any facts, for they will argue until Jupitars moon "Titan" will become a new earth._
> 
> ...


 But I gotta say, you set yourself up with the italicized comment.  "Give them no facts?"  Maybe I should just go ahead and move it, I'm in a movin' kinda mood.

 -Michael


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## Seig (Oct 28, 2004)

I think I see where Gary was trying to go with this. I hope I am right and will clue in on the lineage thing. 

The lineage idea or model is a very hot topic within certain groups, mainly those that can prove their lineage. While some say that this is to preserve the integrity of what was taught by the founders, I think the truth is far more cultural. IN essence, a Martial Arts lineage is much like a family name. Someone in another thread mentioned a victorian view point. If one cares to look, most American cultures that have their roots in Europe or the Middle East have this phenomenom. You can see this in non martial arts related groups such as DAR, Daughters of the American Revolution. People take pride in their family's name and accomplishments. It is in essence a pedigree. In psychological terms you could say that people are adding value to their own self persception through the accomplishments of their ancestors.


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## Ceicei (Oct 28, 2004)

Well, I am under the impression that a possible common "ancestor" to the lineages of Kenpo, Kempo, Kajukenbo, and others is Daruma?  I don't have any thing really to confirm that impression. History is not my strong suit, although I do consider it quite interesting.

- Ceicei


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## Seig (Oct 28, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Well, I am under the impression that a possible common "ancestor" to the lineages of Kenpo, Kempo, Kajukenbo, and others is Daruma? I don't have any thing really to confirm that impression. History is not my strong suit, although I do consider it quite interesting.
> 
> - Ceicei


Mr. Parker has that in II Vol 1. The common accepted theory is that all martial arts go back to that.


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## Ceicei (Oct 28, 2004)

Isn't Daruma also known as Bodhidharma(sp?)  Many Kenpo books (besides the Infinite Insights series) with a chapter or two on history often refer to that name.  Not sure if Kempo/Kajukenbo make the same claim with their histories.

- Ceicei


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## GAB (Oct 28, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Isn't Daruma also known as Bodhidharma(sp?) Many Kenpo books (besides the Infinite Insights series) with a chapter or two on history often refer to that name. Not sure if Kempo/Kajukenbo make the same claim with their histories.
> 
> - Ceicei


Hi, Yes, and also yes to the other post on the Daruma. 

It is interesting about ones outlook at others religions and cultures. If a couple of the original posts would have been making fun of Christ or God you would see all sorts of posts and moderators being called.

Probably by the same people who were making fun of Buddha. I don't care like I stated,  I am Agnostic...

Thanks Seig for the save, I hope it will not be in vain. I think the first couple of responses were in fun and fine, but it all depends on whose ox is getting gored.

Interesing like I say, there were no italics (but maybe there should have been).

I spoke of Buddha and now we have gotten to Ceicei's input about the time it got into China and getting closer to the gist of the original thought (Seig caught my rambling, again thanks).

Anyone else want to pick it up from hear or not.

Regards, Gary


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## Pacificshore (Oct 28, 2004)

Seig said:
			
		

> I think I see where Gary was trying to go with this. I hope I am right and will clue in on the lineage thing.
> 
> The lineage idea or model is a very hot topic within certain groups, mainly those that can prove their lineage. While some say that this is to preserve the integrity of what was taught by the founders, I think the truth is far more cultural. IN essence, a Martial Arts lineage is much like a family name. Someone in another thread mentioned a victorian view point. If one cares to look, most American cultures that have their roots in Europe or the Middle East have this phenomenom. You can see this in non martial arts related groups such as DAR, Daughters of the American Revolution. People take pride in their family's name and accomplishments. It is in essence a pedigree. In psychological terms you could say that people are adding value to their own self persception through the accomplishments of their ancestors.


Very good point :asian:


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## The Kai (Oct 28, 2004)

So Buddha comes into China and begins teaching or there is already a form of Kung fu at a temple that he stops at........??
Todd


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## mhouse (Oct 28, 2004)

I can state that the Shaolin Kenpo/Karazempo agrees with the "Bohidhrama as a common ancestor" arguement.

Let me put it one step futher. I'm not sure how much I agree with the veracity of what follows, but the concept is a good one.

Bohidhrama comes from India to China. Teaches 18 Hands of Lo Han to the ailing monks. Over the years the monks develop Kung Fu. Over the centuries the various other cultures in Aisa make contact with China. To use an over-simplification, those who founded Tang Soo Do saw the monks on days they were practicing kicks. They liked what they saw and went to work with it. Those who created Akido and Jui Jitsu happen to be watching on a ground fighting day, they liked it and went to study it on their own. Those who founded Karate saw them punching, etc, etc. 

Like I said, it's a gross-oversimplification, but I thought the concept behind that story was neat.


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## The Kai (Oct 28, 2004)

Actually I heard that Aikido is based on Pak-Ga(sp?)

Todd


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## GAB (Oct 28, 2004)

Hi Kai=Todd,

Don't start sniping, you have done 2 posts and both are snipes...

You need to put forth some good information and follow the rules of verbal engagement...IMO

OK.. With that said, what do you know about the various stories that you want to contribute to this thread?

We are in China at a temple of monks who are preserving their way of life and seek nothing other then enlightment from their meditations...Their bodies are withering away because they do not do much exercise...

Regards, Gary %-}


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## The Kai (Oct 28, 2004)

Gary(Gab)
Not sure how i am sniping (sorry)

Here's my opinion,  Everybody has heard the ol' shaolin temple thing.
Now, a Chinese Ma'ists might want to jump on me here.  There is a certain way that shaolin based arts move, which does'nt explain Tibeten Long Fist Style, Hsing I or Pak kua. 
Was Buddha 1 man?  Since Buddha means enlightened one there could be a long line of buddha's all tied together by Karmic succession.  Outlandish?  Read about the present Dali lama.
So Buddha adds what he has to the indignious art of the area he is in, but there are arts that are practiced outside the temple.  
Aikido I was told comes from Pak kua, not watching the temple on a certain day.
Okinwan karate is mostly traced back to White Crane Kung Fu (According to Pat McCarthy)
Kicking arts tied mostly to northern Kung fu
Jujitsu from chin Na and the fact that the japanese did most of their fighting in armor and with swords

shaolin temple probably more advanced due to military generals "hiding out".  The triads to some extent trace back to the same temple.

You offered people to offer thier opinions, if they don't go in the direction you want don'r blame me!  If I broke some rules of verbal engagement I am sorry, I could'nt find them in my handbook!  Please telll me what you want and maybe I can give you the right answers
Todd


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## GAB (Oct 29, 2004)

Hi Todd,

I think that is a good post, I am just trying to gather MA's together to discuss the linage of their art or what they think or opinion. I appreciate your input...

Sure lots of Buddha's, kind of a lineage thing through enlightenment like you said.

I feel you are full of good information.
I will say some more regarding the unusualness of USA and the Asian thoughts regarding Heaven and Earth...

Western goes back to an interesting thought pattern regarding the one God and watching over its flock. Why sheepherders are pretty easy to relate this to, David and all the various stories regarding this thought.. Simple I know....

Now when you go to Eastern thought (asia) China and the various areas our 
MA comes from... Men receiving enlightenment and meditating, similar to praying and talking to angels???

Very broad brush here, fill in anywhere you want to.

Kung Fu Tzu and other men of wisdom playing major roles in how the culture viewed the world, very much different from one another E&W...

Buddha talks about the right way to do things, 10 commands or commandments are just that...

Ritual is in both of the cultures W and E. But again much different...

Lets go from here and have some more thoughts, please. 

Regards, Gary

ps. how about both cultures abandoning the world and hiding out in places to pray and meditate, to keep the way they cherish going with out women???
How long will that last??? Or did they really???


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## Ceicei (Oct 29, 2004)

Which direction do you want us to go with this thread?  I can pretty much figure what you are saying and where you may be going, but when you suggest ideas with several tangents, it can be challenging to keep a discussion on a certain theme.

- Ceicei


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## GAB (Oct 29, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Which direction do you want us to go with this thread? I can pretty much figure what you are saying and where you may be going, but when you suggest ideas with several tangents, it can be challenging to keep a discussion on a certain theme.
> 
> - Ceicei


Hi Ceicei,

No tangent, we (you and I ) about Buddha and the various names, Monks and MA. It is in China and we are heading to Okinawa and Japan, How long will that take, we have gotten there very quickly so I slowed it down...

Regardes, Gary


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## The Kai (Oct 29, 2004)

IMHO - Most "temple" martial arts were actually disspossed generals of a losing battle that gave up thier worldy possesions, and name to continue to live.  That is way the Triads call back to the temples as thier birth.  The fighting monks were in many cases a "retired" general living within the temple walls.

Then the arts migrated south traveling thru the korean penisula, where they briefly flourished, founding such institutions as the Hwrang. 
Todd


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 29, 2004)

well the legend that Daruma taught the monks a form of exercise, is just that, a legend......like a lot of stories in MA. but stylistic differences are sure to develop in anything that is taught.......we know that for sure. not many people are taught one thing and then stick with that one thing forever.
okinawan karate is not just from the evolution of one simple style of chuan fa, naha, shuri, and tomari all had their own distinct styles of chuanfa, this was due to the influx of chinese people that lived in okinawa.......i think they were referred to as the 39 families when it was under chinese rule(robert r. probably knows loads about this.).
ok.....i got to okinawa too fast.
to see where the arts changed and how they flourished, you have to look at the different provinces of china and see the arts similarities and differences according to region....this can be a long look depending on if you care or not. the chinese (as far as i have read) are very different about the way they keep records than the japanese. but as a start, i would look at the history of mantis, white crane, baguazhang, wing chun, shaolin long fist, choy li fut, hung gar, hsing-i etc...... and see where it goes from there. i think this would make it an interesting thread.

shawn


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## The Kai (Oct 29, 2004)

Goju Ryu is reportedly from White Crane Kung Fu

While Uechi Ryu is decended From Pagi noon


Some styles of kung fu were reportedly to defend against the much more prevaliant Shoalin long fist(wing chun and mantis style).
The geographic differences in China are largly gone due the cleaning sweep of Chairman Mao-the different styles were homogenized into Wu Shu
Todd


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 29, 2004)

my point was to look into the history of the styles, not as they are now.......and how they influenced the okinawan styles. as far as i know and have been taught, mantis and wing chun are not long fist styles.......the hallmark of both systems is the ability to fight in close. 
but look into the actual history of the martial arts, the how and why's.

shawn


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## The Kai (Oct 29, 2004)

mantis and wing chun were set up to counter shaolin by creating a close range systemI think the other thing to think about is that the shoalin temple is a creation more of movies and TV than history.  
I am not a Chinese martial arts person, so my history on these arts is a tad skechy

Lets see southern styles of kung fu more hand orientaed to to the fact the people lived closer together and within cities

Northern kung fu more kicks,  thier hands would be bundled up making punchs less effective and open spaces for larger motions

Todd


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## GAB (Oct 29, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> IMHO - Most "temple" martial arts were actually disspossed generals of a losing battle that gave up thier worldy possesions, and name to continue to live. That is way the Triads call back to the temples as thier birth. The fighting monks were in many cases a "retired" general living within the temple walls.
> 
> Then the arts migrated south traveling thru the korean penisula, where they briefly flourished, founding such institutions as the Hwrang.
> Todd


Hi Kai, The arts did go to the korean penisula, and yes there was a mixing of the arts with the enslavement of or maybe debter (similar to western culture) would be better. Time and era was very important to the migration of the arts. Back and forth, China-Korea-Japan-Okinawa

Different thought on religion Buddha vs Confucious vs Shinto. China, Korea and Japan.

What fit in was what would go best with the religious beliefs. 

Shawn, thanks for the information and the direction.

Unhappy Generals(retired or thrown out or over thrown or running away with a group of men) Can you imagine these temples with out women, (enslavement).

Children were populationing the whole area and the orphan population had to go somewhere. Selling off or stealing. Very much a time of Highwaymen maurading gangs, and the need to learn protection for self and family. Groups develop different styles of defense.

Mongol's invasion Martial law and martial arts rise up. Lots of fighting and unrest. And we have not left China...

No Buddha, is Christ a figment of imagination also?

Buddha, Confucious and I Ching, the Tao...hundreds of years before Christ.
Some say thousands of years...Yin and Yang, Hexagrams..code long before western civilization came up with it..Golden age of China...Book.. Eastern Wisdom by Michael Jordan, (not the ball player)

New finding that the Jomon culture is thousands of years before the Mesopotamia cultures, due to pottery found that dates back earlier...

Anyone else?

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai (Oct 30, 2004)

The people oin the temples were not in inslavement since they made a choice to enter the temple and could leave when they wanted.

Also I don't think a vow or period of celibacy is enslavement, or imprisonment by any means,

Where do we want to go with this thread?
Todd


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## GAB (Nov 7, 2004)

Hi, 

How about the arts that were in Vietnam, Thailand, the early Khmer Empire in Cambodia, is an interesting read.

Interesting is the Chinese seem to have had the greatest influence, they were the greatest civilization for so long...The idea is not who was the first or the last but the longest. 
The religion (or lack) had a lot to do with the mentality. India went passive and China because of outside attacks were very fierce in defending or being conquered and then assimulating them due to there way of being quite civilized (compared to others at the time) they also consumed others.  
I think if you took a calander (12 mos) and figured India then China the oldest, look at it like each month is a certain amount of time, say 500 years.

What you would have is Korea at 7 others added in after that. America (if you wanted to say Hawaii) the last 6 or 7 days of the month of December.

I threw this in to show how long it was before it went anywhere else, FMA being quite different. 
Obviously, this is very simple and not specific. If others would like to add feel free...

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai (Nov 7, 2004)

I guess you would have to wonder about how much "cross training" happened back in the old days.  Was travel from village to village common?  How long would it take someone to travel 100 miles?   Couls you afford to leave the farm for any lenght of time.

China was quite influential on language, culture so it is not hard to imagine they inluenced the martial arts
Todd


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## GAB (Dec 4, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I guess you would have to wonder about how much "cross training" happened back in the old days. Was travel from village to village common? How long would it take someone to travel 100 miles? Couls you afford to leave the farm for any lenght of time.
> 
> China was quite influential on language, culture so it is not hard to imagine they inluenced the martial arts
> Todd


Hi Kai,

Thanks for adding this, I have not been to this thread in quite sometime, out of one month, I was gone for three weeks. 
Had a nice Thanksgiving, how about you?

You know that is really a good point, the family type relationship, you are stuck on the farm or rice paddy.
Then you have the shiftless yellow robed begger monks, who if they were not good at defending themselves would have been history.

So they have something others want, a young man sees a monk take out a couple of highwaymen, then become's his serf (different I know but essentially the same) or the monk is his mentor etc.

Probably better then working all day following the ox, or momma san pulling the plow.

Kind of like the story in England Robin Hood and the Friar, they find a few others and create their own story.

So after centuries of this type of secluded (underground Type of culture if you will) we get closer to the revealing little by little and soon it starts to get bigger and bigger. Western civilization starts to explore the flat word (only at the Vatican). 
Stories start getting back to Rome and the Jesuits hit the trail in a similar fashion only they are traveling quite a bit further, they are not just going a few hundred miles but thousands and closing the gap between nations not yet seen or heard of. 

Basic theme Religion, or searching for enlightenment is the main point here.
Eastern and Western culture clashes again. Only this time it is not Alexander the Great and his Armies 300 BC, it is the Catholic Church and their foot soliders. 
Along with a few Sailors and Adventurous others in a ship the size of a Greyhound Bus (hard to believe).

Now you think about the Island's of the Phillipines (Filipino), Portuguese Sailors and Spain together along with the Catholic Church go to the Islands and then also they are going to Mexico (new spain) and taking one culture from one place to another and back again. Also the Freemasons are on the March.

If you have never been to Mexico city and seen the Anthropologia Musuem, In the (Grasshopper park) Chapultepic (sp) Park, you are missing a great ride into history. 
About the establishment of the "New Spain" into the Americas. Martial Arts from the Filipines is here.%-} 
Much earlier then into Hawaii with Japanese and Chinese stuff.

Ceicei this was for you. FMA has been in America for many many centuries,
talk about a clandestine type of teaching. :jedi1:

OK. Back to Okinawa, because at the same time Okinawa was being invaded by foreigners was about the same time as New Spain and the Filipines make their entry in to the new world.

Hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving.

Regards, Gary


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## Karazenpo (Dec 7, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> my point was to look into the history of the styles, not as they are now.......and how they influenced the okinawan styles. as far as i know and have been taught, mantis and wing chun are not long fist styles.......the hallmark of both systems is the ability to fight in close.
> but look into the actual history of the martial arts, the how and why's.
> 
> shawn



Hi Shawn, there is a traditional mantis long fist style. I studied it. Master Chan Poi's Northern Wah Lum Tam Tui Praying Mantis Kung Fu, boy, that was a mouthful, lol. Good system, I could recognize the Chinese elements of the kenpo/kempo arts within it. Sometimes he's listed as Pui Chan, same guy though. He was in Boston but relocated to Florida years ago, helluva of martial artist! Isn't there a form in Tracy's Kenpo called Tam Tui? (searching/seeking foot)


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## RavenDarkfellow (Jan 21, 2005)

I'd just like to touch on the previous points of the origin and relationships of martial arts.  I consider myself equally a martial arts scholar and martial artist.  In fact, at this point, I'm more of a scholar than a practitioner (mostly because I have limited access to martial arts training).

I hate to say it, and I'm sure I'm going to be flogged for this one, but the fact is very _few_ martial arts actually have any idea of when/where they were actually founded.  Most martial artists (especially the originators) either didn't know their lineage, or made it up, or even changed it to make it sound better.  This is especially true of the older and Chinese martial arts.  Nobody can seem to keep their records straight, so what I do is collect all the information I can about each art, conflicting or not, and assume that part of all of it is true.

From what I've gathered, nearly everyone seems to concur that Bodhidarmha (a.k.a. Daruma, and at least two other names) was the originator of the martial arts.  The legend goes that he went to the Shaolin temple to teach the monks about Buddhism, but they were too physically weak to keep up with his meditations.  So he developed a conditioning regimine which he called "eight hands", which helped to whip the monks into shape.

From this, they added more techniques in, more and different conditioning excersices, etc., until they finally had created an entirely new art which eventually became Shaolin Gung Fu.

From there, everything branches out into hundreds of different versions, and even the arts which branched off have branches, and so on, and so forth.  Even within the orriginal legend, there are various versions of how it happened and why.  The version I've written above is the most common (that I've found) and even the versions which differ tend to share most of the important elements.

For a couple of examples to support my claim that nobody can keep the history of their arts straight:

(These will be extremely abbreviated and simplified.)

Hung Gar Kung Fu v. 1 - Mr. Hung learns a form of Kung Fu that he becomes proficient in.  He's out gardening one day when he finds a crane picking at his garden.  He tries to shoo the crane away, but it evades his attacks while strategically keeping him at bay by pecking at him from it's lithe, graceful motions.  He captures this crane and studies it, adding concepts from its movement and behaviour to his current knowledge, and creates Hung Gar.

v. 2 - Same as above, but he doesn't capture the crane, it wounds him, and while he recovers he contemplates its movements.  He then developes the techniques on his own.

v. 3 - He learns a form of Kung Fu he becomes proficient in.  He then seeks knowledge from his wife who knows crane style (or in other versions Wing Chun, or in other versions, something secret and mysterious), adds it to his own knowledge, and creates Hung Gar.

Aikido v.1 - Developed in feudal Japan, entirely independent of any other martial art, by the Bushi (Samuri), nobles, and their families.  Different versions of Aikido were used throughout Feudal history (after the ban of weapons within cities) as a war-time art.

v. 2 - Developed sometime in the 1800's (I'm thinking 1840's) by an "enlightened" political-religious zealot as a non-lethal means of meditation and conditioning, from the existing art of Jiu-jitsu.

v. 3 - Much like version one, except that it was then molded down into a less lethal form, with less joint locks and breaks, into the art of Judo.  (This is also sorta' an inconsistency in the Judo origin.)

v. 4 - Developed in ancient japan from Chin Na after some monks immigrated from China to teach Buddhism.

Karate (Any except just "Te") v. 1 - Developed from the Okinawan art of "Te", which was created independently to fight off the oppressive armies of Japan.  The Japanese saw the Okinawan's art, and decided they must have their own styles, which became "Karate".

v. 2 Developed from the Kempo which was migrating over from China (Kempo having the general connotation of Chinese martial arts that migrated over to Okinawa and Japan), Karate orriginated entirely from these arts.

v. 3 I'm hazy on this one as I only read it once, but it has something to do with one single person seeing the Kempo, and deciding to take the hard, linear movements from it, and employ it as a brutal, devastating, war-time art.

Those are just a few examples, and like I said, they're quite abbreviated.  I don't have access to the sources just now, nor do I have the time to post the full versions of each one.  

So having that said, there's really no point in arguing or paying much attention to the lineage and history of each martial art, unless you just like knowing the trivia, or you feel you need to know -something- about the past of your art.  Just don't get too dependent on the information, or offended when somebody corrects you/ gives an entirely different version or account of what you thought you knew.


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## Gentle Fist (Jan 22, 2005)

That was the popular answer a decade or two ago, but I think they are finding more and more that shows fighting styles that are centuries older than Ancient Rome.  

Professor Shuras would surely know.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 22, 2005)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Ceicei,
> 
> It is in China and we are heading to Okinawa and Japan, How long will that take, we have gotten there very quickly so I slowed it down...
> 
> Regardes, Gary


Well if we follow this line, they never made it to Okinawa or Japan. :uhyeah: 

*Ng Mui * - Five Ancestors Shaolin Boxing
*Yim Wing Chun * - Founder - Wing Chun Gung-Fu
*Leung Bok Cho * (Yims husband) -Wing Chun Gung-Fu
*Wong Wah Bo * - Wing Chun Gung-Fu
*Leung Yee Tye * - Wing Chun Gung-Fu
*Leung Jan * - Wing Chun Gung-Fu
*Leung Bik * - Wing Chun Gung-Fu
*Chan Wah Shun * - Wing Chun Gung-Fu
*Yip Man * - Wing Chun Gung-Fu
*Bruce Lee * - Wing Chun Gung-Fu - Founder - Jun Fan Gung-Fu / Jeet Kune Do


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## GAB (Jan 22, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> Well if we follow this line, they never made it to Okinawa or Japan. :uhyeah:
> 
> *Ng Mui *- Five Ancestors Shaolin Boxing
> *Yim Wing Chun *- Founder - Wing Chun Gung-Fu
> ...


Hi,

How about the fact that quite a bit of the ones you mentioned have ended up in the arts that the topic is about. Plus you see some of it is in FMA also.

What came first the chicken or the egg???The egg, because it is associated with the reptiles also.

I have read where one of the oldest arts are from the Phillipines by way of Africia (because of the Negrito). 

The more you read about different Martial Arts, the more you realize they are similar with a twist.

Regards, Gary


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## James Kovacich (Jan 22, 2005)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> How about the fact that quite a bit of the ones you mentioned have ended up in the arts that the topic is about. Plus you see some of it is in FMA also.
> 
> ...


I think that if we were to be able to go all the way back we may find that they all would be tied together in some 
way.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 22, 2005)

as for karate making its way to okinawa, i believe the story goes a little like this.
in 1391 the ming court (as okinawa was under pseudo-chinese rule) sent 36 families from fukien province to chuzan in okinawa. these people were ship builders, artisans, tradesmen, etc. with these chinese emigrants also came chuan fa. as the okinawans started to learn from the chinese, these arts began to spread throughout the 3 kingdoms in okinawa. so naturally.....from these places evolved forms of karate distinct to their regions Naha-te, Shuri-te, Tomari-te. it just so happens that these "36 families" settled in a district of Naha that they called Kume, which became a very prestigious community.
so like.....there you have it.


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## GAB (Jan 22, 2005)

Hi Shawn,

I have read that also in the Bubishi, Translated by Patrick McCarthy.

Okinawa is where Karate came from as most of us know, The person responsible for it was Gichin Funakoshi. He was an Okinawan and the rest is history. 

The thing I find interesting is at the time Okinawa, was under Japan's rule and had been for years. 

America must have felt it was under Japans rule for they gave it back to them after the war. Interesting. I am sure it is still an angry situation to the Okinawan's. 

Regards, Gary


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## Simon Curran (Jan 23, 2005)

Well when this thread was originally started the idea was that people should offer opinions, instead of trying to blind with facts/ legends, so I will offer my opinion.
I am a natural cynic, so here goes.
I believe that martial arts are as old as mankind itself, I am sure that at some time we have all come across someone who is not necessarily a martial artist, just naturally tough.
My theory is these tough guys teach what they know to others, who add a little of their own, and so on ad infinitum.
With regards to legends of one person being at the centre and starting it all, this is basically the same as what I am saying, however I do not believe that just one person in the world, whether divine or otherwise (I am also an atheist) could ever be the be all and end all of fighting ability.
Like I already said, I personally have seen people who could fight and those who could not, regardless of their training or lack thereof.
At the end of the day it all comes down to a persons understanding of the limitations of the human body, both offensively and defensively, we all have nerves/bones/organs which can be attacked, we all have hands/feet/forehead/teeth etc with which we can attack.
In regards to teachings of breathing exercises etc. that is just a matter of physiology, without breath we can't exist, and the better our body's oxygen uptake, the better we function, but in terms of people meditating themselves to a higher plane of conciousness, I have two things to say;
a) don't pick those mushrooms
b) hyperventilation induces dizziness which could be construed as an altered state.
Like I said in the start, this is just my personal opinion, and I am sure that a lot of others will disagree, but basically martial arts are all about violence, it has always existed, and some have a better ability to use violence as a tool than others.


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## masherdong (Feb 13, 2005)

Sorry I dont understand this thread.


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