# Why We Love MMA ? Not me...



## MA-Caver (Sep 5, 2009)

Watching this compilation video of various fights and fighters, I've developed an opinion of the "sport" of MMA. Watch the video first please then read on.
[yt]jVC6nm0bLxY[/yt]

Basically what I saw was a "for real" version of the so called "Professional Wrestling" matches. Guys strutting down a ramp, prancing before a crowd/fans, confetti raining down and all the pomp and showbiz glitz that goes with the faked version of it all. 
Granted it's for real, real blood, real pain, real hits/kicks and all that. Yet extraordinarily violent brutal and ... imo... unnecessary feeding of a bloodlust that was best suited for gladiatorial games in ancient Rome.

To my eyes nothing more than professional highly trained street fighting. 

I'll pass thank you. 

Sorry to offend anyone who is into it like a fan would be. 
To me it does away with the essence of Martial Arts and only showcases the brutality of it.
Or maybe I just don't understand what all I'm seeing. 

Your thoughts?


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## Archangel M (Sep 5, 2009)

The "Essence of Martial Arts"? 

It's essence...it's foundation is in the killing of human beings. Hence "Martial".

All these "touchy-feely" add-ons are a fairly recent innovation IMO.

Not that I disagree with the over-commercialization, WWE/Boxing Hype and "Thug" attitude that you see from some competitors and promoters.


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## Joab (Sep 5, 2009)

I do my best to ignore it.


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## Joab (Sep 5, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> The "Essence of Martial Arts"?
> 
> It's essence...it's foundation is in the killing of human beings. Hence "Martial".
> 
> ...


 
It's traditonally been far more dignified than UFC and the like, with bowing and respect and honor held to be very important. You don't see any of that in the UFC, certainly not in the commercials. I see martial arts as more life insurance than anything, something I hope to never have to use, but if I do I would rather not lose.


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## Tez3 (Sep 6, 2009)

Judging MMA by that video is like judging TKD by the Olympics.

thats not our MMA that's for sure.


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## WhiteLotus (Sep 6, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> Watching this compilation video of various fights and fighters, I've developed an opinion of the "sport" of MMA. Watch the video first please then read on.
> [yt]jVC6nm0bLxY[/yt]
> 
> Basically what I saw was a "for real" version of the so called "Professional Wrestling" matches. Guys strutting down a ramp, prancing before a crowd/fans, confetti raining down and all the pomp and showbiz glitz that goes with the faked version of it all.
> ...



I agree I do not get impressed with the MMa stuff.

You made a point they showcase the brutality and bloodlust etc. They seem to do away with the "art" part. it is not martial "arts", but martial sport, cage fighting.  Really it is still a sport also, the combative aspect is missing in the ring as it should be obvious. They are not allowed to do many things in the ring that would be second nature to many martial artist in real combat.

But I will say, at times we see some traditional fighting in tere, like the jujitsu guys and and few good moves.

But for the most part, sport street fighting, one step more real from the fake wrestling shows, as I see it.

yes these men can fight and they are rough etc. But as far as being the "ultimate fighters?" NO I don't think so.


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## Tez3 (Sep 6, 2009)

WhiteLotus said:


> I agree I do not get impressed with the MMa stuff.
> 
> You made a point they showcase the brutality and bloodlust etc. They seem to do away with the "art" part. it is not martial "arts", but martial sport, cage fighting. Really it is still a sport also, the combative aspect is missing in the ring as it should be obvious. They are not allowed to do many things in the ring that would be second nature to many martial artist in real combat.
> 
> ...


 
And here we go around again..... TMA v MMA.
Don't you guys ever get fed up being on your high horses all the time?

By all means judge MMA by a couple of fights if it makes all of you feel happier, nothing I can say anymore will convince you lot to open your closed minds. 
By the way I don't go posting on all the other sections how much I think their art sucks.....which I don't actually.

:deadhorse:deadhorse:deadhorse  :deadhorse:deadhorse :deadhorse


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## Steve (Sep 6, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> Watching this compilation video of various fights and fighters, I've developed an opinion of the "sport" of MMA. Watch the video first please then read on.
> [yt]jVC6nm0bLxY[/yt]
> 
> Basically what I saw was a "for real" version of the so called "Professional Wrestling" matches. Guys strutting down a ramp, prancing before a crowd/fans, confetti raining down and all the pomp and showbiz glitz that goes with the faked version of it all.
> ...


You're entitled to your opinion, and not everyone should or needs to like MMA.  But I do have a few comments about your post.  

The video was a compilation of all of the action, and a lot of it was from Pride.  The Japanese audience unabashedly promoted the Pro Wrestling mentality in their events, and where you saw dancing girls and most of the prancing around, it was in Pride.  Not all promotions are the same.  I haven't gone on to read the entire thread yet, but I'll be surprised if Tez doesn't point this out to you.  (Tez:  "The UFC isn't all of MMA."  )  While I disagree with her to a point on this, I think that it's important to recognize what you're watching.  Were I to compile all of the most brutal hits in any contact sport, be it the NFL, Rugby or whatever, it would lead to a skewed perspective.

I will say that I agree with you to a point, though, on this.  I don't like the marketing, or the emphasis on violence.  I think it's unnecessary and ultimately counterproductive.  

Second, fighting is brutal.  It's a combat sport and this won't appeal to everyone.  Much of the popularity of MMA is due to the visceral authenticity of the combat.  Instead of distilled, ritualized, and ultimately unrealistic action, the fighters train for efficiency.  

In spite of this, it's much more civilized than most.  Boxers die far more often than MMA'ists.  Serious injuries are very uncommon and deaths almost unheard of in sanctioned events.  There is more blood, which lends a superficial impression of violence that belies the statistical reality.

Once again, for the millionth time, most MMA'ists are also TMA'ists.  Because you don't watch MMA, you don't know whether there is respect or any "art" in it.  You're assuming not... hoping not, IMO.  
I don't begrudge anyone doing what they enjoy, but the elitist attitude has to go.  

Last thing, if you don't like MMA, fine.  I really have no problem with it.  But I encourage you to be educated about what you say you don't like.  if you choose to have an opinion, at least be knowledgeable about it.


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## Steve (Sep 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Judging MMA by that video is like judging TKD by the Olympics.
> 
> thats not our MMA that's for sure.


LOL...  close, but I was sure you'd remind everyone that the UFC doesn't represent all of MMA.


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## Tez3 (Sep 6, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> LOL... close, but I was sure you'd remind everyone that the UFC doesn't represent all of MMA.


 

Oooo I'm getting predictable lol! 

To come onto the MMA section and post that you don't like our style and then start slagging it off is unpardonably ignorant and rude. 

Stay away from MMA if you don't like it and don't wish to be open minded. 
I'm really not going to be bothered answering attacks such as these.

I'm busy at the moment, we are organising two charity shows at the moment, one boxing then an MMA one, oh gosh two such brutal sports! (Oh my, I may just faint at the sight of the blood lol!) My daughter is fighting on the MMA one, amateur rules no head shots.(see kettlebell thread for her photos...she's cool!) she's originally, like me, Wado Ryu karate.


ROFL at 'sport street fighting" round here street fighting is a sport! Are we too rough for some people, oh dear,better get the cotton wool out!

Violence solves everything!!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 6, 2009)

Personally I enjoy watching MMA.  It is a great sport and very, very exciting!
While many of the athletes participating in it come from MMA gyms or have a traditional martial arts background they are in the end athlete's.  At the professional level they mimic or act like athletes from any professional sport and as the money flows in and their fame grows they act like any other professional athlete. (that is what they are after all)  I see little difference from professional football, basketball, hockey, etc.  It is in the end very similar with how they all act.  Still the *sport* is fun and exciting to watch!


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## MJS (Sep 6, 2009)

Sigh...please, lets not turn this into a bash fest ok? 

As for the OPs question....First off, todays MMA is much safer than what we saw in the early UFC days. Seems to me, with the sanctions and everything else the UFC follows, fighter safety is pretty high up there. Now, I say UFC because seeing that there're many different organizations, I dont want to speak for all of them, just the one that I'm most familiar with.

Second, as for the so called strutting down a ramp, ala WWE style...well, think about it, pretty much every sports event, ie: baseball, football, basketball, boxing, you name it, you will see each respective team entering in their own unique way. 

Third, calling it brutal, I think is a bit much. If we think about it, ALL martial arts training has the potential to be brutal, so if brutal is too much, perhaps those that think that, should invest their time in something other than MA training. Yes, and the thought of 3 or 4 or 5 300lb guys dog piling on 1 person during a football game, gear or not, seems like it could be pretty brutal too, yet millions watch NFL. 

Fourth, must I remind everyone that the UFC is on PPV, meaning that you have to pay to get it. Yes, its on some of the sports channels as well as Spike, however, if one isn't interested in watching it, simply dont turn on that channel. Its not like someone is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to watch it.

Just wanted to say this as well....personally, I enjoy watching the UFC and all of the other MMA fights as well.  I have a few that were shot in Brazil, and rest assure, they are much more brutal than what we're seeing here, with less of a laundry list of UFC type rules.  Yes, there are rules, but not nearly as many as we see here in the states.


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## TheWellWisher (Sep 6, 2009)

Yeah gotta admit, I'm not a big fan of MMA. I do like watching MA vs MA (eg. Karate vs TKD), some people don't agree with that either though...


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## Tez3 (Sep 6, 2009)

TheWellWisher said:


> Yeah gotta admit, I'm not a big fan of MMA. I do like watching MA vs MA (eg. Karate vs TKD), some people don't agree with that either though...


 

Aha, we'll soon change that lol! Get yourself up here in December and I'll give you a ringside seat and you'll walk away a fan I promise!!


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## MJS (Sep 6, 2009)

TheWellWisher said:


> Yeah gotta admit, I'm not a big fan of MMA. I do like watching MA vs MA (eg. Karate vs TKD), some people don't agree with that either though...


 
Well, back in the day, thats what it was like.  That, I believe, was the goal of Rorian...to showcase various arts against each other.  Today, everyone is doing the same thing, so its more of a person vs. person fight.  The better man will win that day.


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## TheWellWisher (Sep 6, 2009)

Okay cool I'll take you up on that one then Tez lol


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## Tez3 (Sep 6, 2009)

TheWellWisher said:


> Okay cool I'll take you up on that one then Tez lol


 
No worries, keep December 5th free!  Should have some fighters from over the Pennines on you can shout for!


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## K831 (Sep 6, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> Watching this compilation video of various fights and fighters, I've developed an opinion of the "sport" of MMA Basically what I saw was a "for real" version of the so called "Professional Wrestling" matches. Guys strutting down a ramp, prancing before a crowd/fans, confetti raining down and all the pomp and showbiz glitz that goes with the faked version of it all.


 
I don&#8217;t have a problem with professional wrestling. It&#8217;s not my cup of tea, but I won&#8217;t deny that those guys are often very athletic, and that some serious work goes into the routines, choreography and theatrics. Pro wrestling only becomes annoying with the fans can&#8217;t see it for what it is.
Same goes for MMA. They are tremendous athletes and the sport becomes more technical all the time. Skill levels continually rise, and the sport moves further away from the unskilled brawling that we would sometimes see and closer to highly strategic sport combat with every event. 
I think there are many fighters who are respectful and humble. Many of them love their country of origin and their root styles, weather they started in TMA or come from an MMA background. Some of the best in the game come to every fight wearing the Gi and patches of their TMA. Good for them. 
There are also some classless, arrogant competitors and promoters&#8230;..and fans. That&#8217;s too bad, and it reflects poorly on the sport, but I don&#8217;t think it is indicative of all involved &#8211; in fact I know it&#8217;s not, as my Kenpo school shares the facility with a BBJ/Muay Thai coach who trains MMA fighters. My younger brothers compete and I work with them on their striking as Kenpo has much to offer an MMA fighter, and I have been boxing/wrestling for a while now. Lot of good folks in the sport. 




MA-Caver said:


> Yet extraordinarily violent brutal and ... imo... unnecessary feeding of a bloodlust that was best suited for gladiatorial games in ancient Rome.


 
I don&#8217;t understand this. My 16 year old brother plays HS football. He also does boxing/kickboxing and BJJ. He competes as a grappler and will compete in MMA competitions when he is 18. I don&#8217;t see a difference in brutality and if anything, the injuries suffered by football players are typically more serious. My 24 yr old brother is currently competing in MMA. He has never sustained an injury as serious as the injuries we both sustained snowboarding and racing motocross. I have known many football players, rugby players and soccer players who INTENTIONALLY made dangerous tackles intended to hurt other players. This is no different than your occasional and rare MMA competitor who takes similar action. 




MA-Caver said:


> Sorry to offend anyone who is into it like a fan would be.





MA-Caver said:


> To me it does away with the essence of Martial Arts and only showcases the brutality of it.
> Or maybe I just don't understand what all I'm seeing.


 

Some will be offended, I am not. It showcases some brutality to be sure, and I understand why that doesn&#8217;t sit well with some. Fair enough. I don&#8217;t think the entire essence of martial arts is lost in MMA competitions. That depends a lot on the individual competitors. I see a lot of mutual respect and sportsmanship. I think you understand what you are seeing, you just aren&#8217;t seeing all of it. 





WhiteLotus said:


> I agree I do not get impressed with the MMa stuff.


 
I guess it depends on what types of things impress you. To use UFC fighters as an example; the sheer athleticism of GSP and the continuous improvement and refinement of his unique style impresses me. His dead on game plans built around each individual opponent impresses me. 

The work ethic and dedication of Randy Coture impresses me. The man is what, 46? I only hope to be as game, fit and rugged when I am that age. The fight between him and Nog recently showed tremendous skill and heart form both men, as well as mutual respect. Neither man wanted to &#8220;harm&#8221; the other, but both men were excited to test their mettle against an opponent that neither took lightly. Randy is always ready to fight someone who posses unique challenges because he loves the &#8220;strategy&#8221;. Impressive. 

The millisecond timing/counter punching of Anderson Silva&#8230;his near perfect control of distance? Impressive. 

Lyoto Machida&#8217;s quiet, humble personality, family and training camp. His respect for and use of his family&#8217;s TMA, his control of distance, timing and use of angles&#8230; impressive. 





WhiteLotus said:


> Really it is still a sport also, the combative aspect is missing in the ring as it should be obvious. They are not allowed to do many things in the ring that would be second nature to many martial artist in real combat.





WhiteLotus said:


> yes these men can fight and they are rough etc. But as far as being the "ultimate fighters?" NO I don't think so.


 
Agreed. But this is only a problem if MMA&#8217;ist fail to realize it. Some do. Some swear that MMA competitions are as real as street fighting. Many in the MMA community don&#8217;t see the failures of their training when it comes to real SD. (and some TMA'ist and CQC guys fail to see what MMA as to offer for real SD) That is and will be an ongoing argument.


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## Skpotamus (Sep 6, 2009)

Ya know, I had this exact discussion with someone the other day (A TKD student someone brought to class).  They didn't like our use of grappling techniques and submissions as they felt they weren't realistic, which lead to a demonstration of their effectiveness and ultimately turned to a discussion on mma.  

They pointed out how brutal MMA is, I pointed out how boxing, football and basketball have contributed to more serious injuries and deaths in the united states and world wide.  I also pointed out that Judo, an olympic sport, has a lot more injuries during tournies than I've seen in all the MMA matches I've ever gone to.  

He pointed to how MMA departs from the traditional values of martial arts, I pointed out that originally martial arts were designed for use on a battlefield for KILLING your opponents and that most of the "traditional values" related to spiritualism were added by old soldiers after their military careers as a way of dealing with the brutality of the wars they'd seen.  but weren't a part of what they were originally taught or taught before their military careers (Ueyshiba especially).  

He pointed at how sloppy the fighters looked technique wise.  I pointed out that each sport you were comparing the fighters to (boxing, kickboxing, TKD, etc) all had rules that reinforced how they could utilize their techniques which changes what tactics and techniques they can use.  No other style has to deal with standup striking and grappling attacks, this alone alters their functional striking skill set. Take away the referees in olympic TKD or boxing to break up the clinches that happen constantly and you'd end up with very different matches and subsequent art changes to deal with the new rule set.  I also pointed out how he was looking at the sport with blinders regarding techniques.  He was looking solely at it from a striking perspective, but when you added in some grappling knowledge, the fights look a lot more technical and you can understand why they don't use as many jump spin kicks, boxing from head to head range, etc.  

He talked about the poor attitude of mma fighters, I pointed out that most MMA fighters are respectful and humble (GSP, machida, Anderson Silva, Dan Henderson, Randy Couture, Rich Franklin, Nate Marquardt, etc), I then pointed out the olympic TKD'er who got upset with a referee's call and kicked that referee in the face during the olympics, or about Bernie Krasnoo getting banned from point fighting competitions for throwing chairs and starting riots when one of his guys loses a match (on multiple occasions).  Then pointed to Brian Johnston getting his nose broken by a referee in a UFC tourny and not reacting violently (he protested but didn't get physical, even after getting a broken nose by the ref).  You can isolate certain people with bad attitudes in ANY sport or art, but that doesn't mean the rest, or even majority, are jerks.  

Most people seem to have a chip on their shoulder regarding MMA based on a preconceived notion that MMA people have a chip on their shoulders, whether that chip exists or not.  I think it stems from the original marketing of GJJ by Rorian Gracie as trying to prove his style was the best.  

When people have preconceived notions about MMA and certain styles and they talk about them without actually knowing anything about it there's not much you can do about it.  Trying to convince them they are wrong or just that you aren't wrong is almost impossible.


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## Xinglu (Sep 7, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> When people have preconceived notions about MMA and certain styles and they talk about them without actually knowing anything about it there's not much you can do about it.  Trying to convince them they are wrong or just that you aren't wrong is almost impossible.



Don't confuse me with facts and reason, my mind is already made up! 

I look at it like this, I love football.  I can't stand Terrell Owens or that Chad Johnson guy.  They detract from the sport, are poor sportsman, and despite being highly talented they don't make their team better because of the controversy they bring.  MMAist are the same way.  Most are great people, but some attract the most publicity and they are not good people.  Not good representations of what most MMAist are.  IT is the one bad apple ruining it for the bunch.

The difference here is that the NFL punishes the bad apples.  Dana White and other promoters (like Pride) don't really punish these guys for being unprofessional or thuggish, in some cases it seems encouraged.  That is my ONLY complaint.


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## Tez3 (Sep 7, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Don't confuse me with facts and reason, my mind is already made up!
> 
> I look at it like this, I love football. I can't stand Terrell Owens or that Chad Johnson guy. They detract from the sport, are poor sportsman, and despite being highly talented they don't make their team better because of the controversy they bring. MMAist are the same way. Most are great people, but some attract the most publicity and they are not good people. Not good representations of what most MMAist are. IT is the one bad apple ruining it for the bunch.
> 
> The difference here is that the NFL punishes the bad apples. Dana White and other promoters (like Pride) don't really punish these guys for being unprofessional or thuggish, in some cases it seems encouraged. That is my ONLY complaint.


 
So you know of only two promoters and that fixes it for you, I know a dozen in five different countries and they all punish unprofessional and thuggish behavior, we do ourselves, what one promotion does here is backed by the others. Not that we actually have much bad behaviour, incidents are very few and far between but you've made your mind up. 
And you wonder why I bang on that UFC doesn't equal MMA!


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## Xinglu (Sep 7, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> So you know of only two promoters and that fixes it for you, I know a dozen in five different countries and they all punish unprofessional and thuggish behavior, we do ourselves, what one promotion does here is backed by the others. Not that we actually have much bad behaviour, incidents are very few and far between but you've made your mind up.
> And you wonder why I bang on that UFC doesn't equal MMA!



com'on now, I only listed two (UFC and Pride) because they are the ones it is most prevalent in and in my experience most people in my area are watching.  I have personally seen these things happen in TKO, WEC, and Spirit.  Those leagues are my entire experience with professional MMA, and that problem has existed in all of them.  I like the amateur leagues because such problems are for the most part nonexistent.  In fact I have never personally seen this problem in amateur leagues.

Furthermore, I said it was the ONLY problem I have with MMA, and never did I say I disliked MMA.  I like MMA a lot, but it has some major PR problems that IMHO can be easily fixed by creating a standard of professionalism and sportsmanship that is higher than boxing or most other sports.  Once you do that, most of the complaints about thuggery go away, the complaints about egomaniacs acting like WWE guys go away completely.  I hate that Pro MMA has become a spectacle here.

How is that "fixing" it for me?  Can I not be a fan, participate in mma, and have a problem with how things are marketed and how the "brass" deal with the "problem children"?


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## jarrod (Sep 7, 2009)

if you don't like MMA, don't watch it.  i don't care for the way it's marketed.  but it's a mistake to confuse a product with it's marketing.  

humanity will never lose it's blood lust because it has helped us survive to this point.  so there's no point in complaining about the brutality of MMA.  but as a sport it's a pretty safe outlet for what is really a pretty natural human drive.  

jf


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## K831 (Sep 7, 2009)

jarrod said:


> if you don't like MMA, don't watch it. i don't care for the way it's marketed. but it's a mistake to confuse a product with it's marketing.


 
I think your marketing comment is on a fine line. Consistent and pervasive marketing stratagies do certainly indicate something about a company, at the very least. If we are talking about the product being "MMA" in general then I agree, one companies marketing doesn't refelct on the "general product" however, I think the UFC's marketing does reflect on the UFC's MMA product. 



jarrod said:


> humanity will never lose it's blood lust because it has helped us survive to this point. so there's no point in complaining about the brutality of MMA. but as a sport it's a pretty safe outlet for what is really a pretty natural human drive.
> 
> jf


 
I agree. I think just about any sport we do is driven by a competetive "warrior" type of drive.


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## CoryKS (Sep 7, 2009)

As with all things, YMMV.  I enjoy it but understand that it may not be everyone's cup of tea.


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## Marginal (Sep 8, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Judging MMA by that video is like judging TKD by the Olympics.
> 
> thats not our MMA that's for sure.


That video consisted of A few knockouts and a bunch of guys standing around. By any standard, it was dreadfully boring. You'd have to know the back story one every single one of those fights to get anything out of that video.


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## Steve (Sep 8, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Don't confuse me with facts and reason, my mind is already made up!
> 
> I look at it like this, I love football. I can't stand Terrell Owens or that Chad Johnson guy. They detract from the sport, are poor sportsman, and despite being highly talented they don't make their team better because of the controversy they bring. MMAist are the same way. Most are great people, but some attract the most publicity and they are not good people. Not good representations of what most MMAist are. IT is the one bad apple ruining it for the bunch.
> 
> The difference here is that the NFL punishes the bad apples. Dana White and other promoters (like Pride) don't really punish these guys for being unprofessional or thuggish, in some cases it seems encouraged. That is my ONLY complaint.


I disagree. There is just a different standard. The UFC has actually dropped several fighters for doing things that were dangerous. One example jumps to mind: Renato Sobral held a choke long after the ref stopped the fight. It was intentional and very dangerous. He was very quickly released from his contract. 

Conversely, several bad eggs remain in the NFL. Michael Vick even got himself another job.


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## Xinglu (Sep 8, 2009)

I doubt Michael Vick will play again in the NFL, perhaps the UFL. He was and still is being punished by the NFL serving a major suspension which means he is not being paid. Besides, he is not that talented when the eagles get him practicing they will see that they have wasted their time McNabb aging as he is, will always be a better QB.

Your example is not what I'm talking about, I'm referring to the prancing pony acts before and after matches.  Sorbral endangered another's life and was justly punished.  I'm talking about poor sportsmanship and unprofessional behavior.  Not recklessness which I do think MMA has a strong policy and enforcement on.


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## zDom (Sep 8, 2009)

MJS said:


> Today, everyone is doing the same thing, so its more of a person vs. person fight.  *The better man will win that day.*



I would say, rather, that:

"The better man *that day* will win."


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## Steve (Sep 8, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> I doubt Michael Vick will play again in the NFL, perhaps the UFL. He was and still is being punished by the NFL serving a major suspension which means he is not being paid. Besides, he is not that talented when the eagles get him practicing they will see that they have wasted their time McNabb aging as he is, will always be a better QB.
> 
> Your example is not what I'm talking about, I'm referring to the prancing pony acts before and after matches. Sorbral endangered another's life and was justly punished. I'm talking about poor sportsmanship and unprofessional behavior. Not recklessness which I do think MMA has a strong policy and enforcement on.


 http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4397938

Michael Vick may or may not get back to where he was in the NFL, but that is neither here nor there.  He is a convicted felon and is now back in the NFL on the payroll of a professional team.  He's not playing in the UFL or some arena league.  

You're muddying things up quite a bit here.  First, the prancing pony acts are not just condoned by the NFL, but encouraged.  The official denouncement of it is simply lip service.  Without Terrell Owens and other "colorful" personalities, the NFL would lose a lot of viewers.  Same with every professional sport.  Same with the UFC and MMA in general.  

Pride and the Japanese aesthetic actually appreciates the spectacle, so their shows tend to be a lot more over the top than US and European shows.  But even the UFC quietly endorses individuality and a certain degree of  controversy.  But the UFC, like most professional sports, draws the line consistently where safety and/or the law is concerned.  Sobral knowingly endangered another fighter and was summarily dropped from his contract.  Vick, despite being a felon and having committed what many agree is an appalling crime, is back in the NFL.

The point isn't necessarily to call out the NFL.  It's to point out to you that the UFC and other MMA organizations DO have standards and hold their fighters to them.  While they may not be your standards, they are as consistent and as severe as just about any other pro sport. 

Now, if you want to talk about how these standards need to change for ALL professional sports, I'll be right there with you. I do agree that we should raise our expectations.  I just don't agree that MMA is any worse than any other sport.


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## Xinglu (Sep 8, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Now, if you want to talk about how ...ice to the sport, the fighters, and the fans.


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## Steve (Sep 8, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> Well the NFL has fined Chad Johnson and Owens more than any other player in pro sports, it just isn't doing any good. Personally I'd tell them to get out.
> 
> What I have quoted above is my general position, excuse me for using the MMA as an example... Pro MMA leagues are far worse than the amateur leagues which just goes to show it is more than just individuality. It is a little fame going to people's head. I detest this "I'm the greatest" attitude that comes from the few but extremely vocal fighters. Ali did it, and I hated that too! Be excited when you win, raise your hands, smile, be happy, cry, whatever. But also cut out the smack talk and dances. If I wanted the WWE, I'd watch the WWE.
> 
> ...


I don't think MMA is above reproach and I hope I haven't given you the impression that I believe so.  

I will say, though, that being a professional fighter necessarily involves a large ego.  Part of the difference between amateurs and pros that you're seeing is the difference between guys who believe that they're at the beginning of an ascent to the top and guys who are just in it to be in it.  If you didn't think you could beat the best, you wouldn't put yourself out there.  I guarantee you that every one of the guys at the top of any combat sport believe wholeheartedly that they can beat anyone else on a given day.  I'd also argue that anyone who believes otherwise has no place in the ring or cage.  

This kind of self confidence, whether justified or not, leads to predictable behavior in many people.  It can only manifest in so many different ways. 

I agree with you that we should have standards.  It does bother me when guys like Tito Ortiz and Brock Lesnar make asses of themselves, and bothers me even more that it generates higher ratings... ie, that it works.  After every win Thiago Silva struts around, finds a camera and then makes a slicing motion across his neck directly to camera.  I think that's about as bad as it gets.   

But it's nothing you couldn't find in any other sport.


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## Xinglu (Sep 8, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> I will say, though, that being a professional fighter necessarily involves a large ego.  Part of the difference between amateurs and pros that you're seeing is the difference between guys who believe that they're at the beginning of an ascent to the top and guys who are just in it to be in it.  If you didn't think you could beat the best, you wouldn't put yourself out there.  I guarantee you that every one of the guys at the top of any combat sport believe wholeheartedly that they can beat anyone else on a given day.  I'd also argue that anyone who believes otherwise has no place in the ring or cage.


I agree with this, however there is a difference between thinking that you CAN and boastful arrogant behavior.  Such confidence doesn't mean you should mock or taunt you opponents or that you should act in any other way other than professional.  They are professionals, I want to see them act the part.



stevebjj said:


> I agree with you that we should have standards.  It does bother me when guys like Tito Ortiz and Brock Lesnar make asses of themselves, and bothers me even more that it generates higher ratings... ie, that it works.  After every win Thiago Silva struts around, finds a camera and then makes a slicing motion across his neck directly to camera.  I think that's about as bad as it gets.


  This is exactly what I'm talking about (except Pride - might as well be WWE), it has no place.



stevebjj said:


> But it's nothing you couldn't find in any other sport.


  So this should justify it? I think such behavior by any pro regardless of the sport should not be tolerated and should not be tolerated by fans or the leagues.  It degrades the sport and the fans.


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## Steve (Sep 8, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> I agree with this, however there is a difference between thinking that you CAN and boastful arrogant behavior. Such confidence doesn't mean you should mock or taunt you opponents or that you should act in any other way other than professional. They are professionals, I want to see them act the part.
> 
> This is exactly what I'm talking about (except Pride - might as well be WWE), it has no place.
> 
> So this should justify it? I think such behavior by any pro regardless of the sport should not be tolerated and should not be tolerated by fans or the leagues. It degrades the sport and the fans.


I think that you and I largely agree on the subject.  I don't think we're far off, if at all.  

The only real distinction I see is that, while I agree that we should work toward a higher standard, I can completely understand why we are where we are.  I don't think that other sports justifies the behavior in MMA.  I do believe that it speaks to a larger issue of professional athletes, celebrity in general and the belief by some famous people that they are better than the rest of us.  In other words, it's not just MMA.


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## Xinglu (Sep 8, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> I do believe that it speaks to a larger issue of professional athletes, celebrity in general and the belief by some famous people that they are better than the rest of us.  In other words, it's not just MMA.


I agree, but I think it speaks to our societal values as a whole. As a society we treat celebrities better than everyone else.  So in a way they are correct in thinking they are better then us all.  What's worse, is seeing the kids watch this and then thinking that all martial arts should be like this or are like this and that MAist act in that manner.  

I have had parents tell me they don't want their kids growing up and being like these guys, and I have to reassure them that we do not teach such things.  For as much good as it is doing the MA community it is also giving some really polarizing and negative opinions about it too.  Sure they are unfounded opinions, but they are there anyways and those people are like talking to walls.  They don't listen, they don't care.  There mind is made up, and despite all reason and facts, there will be no changing their mind.  I'm seeing so much more of it now.  It is a shame.


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## pmosiun1 (Sep 8, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> Watching this compilation video of various fights and fighters, I've developed an opinion of the "sport" of MMA. Watch the video first please then read on.
> 
> Basically what I saw was a "for real" version of the so called "Professional Wrestling" matches. Guys strutting down a ramp, prancing before a crowd/fans, confetti raining down and all the pomp and showbiz glitz that goes with the faked version of it all.
> Granted it's for real, real blood, real pain, real hits/kicks and all that. Yet extraordinarily violent brutal and ... imo... unnecessary feeding of a bloodlust that was best suited for gladiatorial games in ancient Rome.
> ...



To be honest, i think fighting in the cage is the essence of martial art because a lot of so called martial art school does not have the essence of martial art, that is to teach you how to fight.

A lot of these so called martial art claim that MMA fighter does not teach you to defend yourself from more than one opponent and that MMA fighting is just a one on one fight. Lets be honest, there is no such martial art that can teach you to defend from more than one opponent.

Personally, i prefer old school ufc which is fun because you have these different style of martial art and you could easily see which works individually, muay thai, boxing, wrestling, sambo, brazilian jiu jitsu and those that do not really work individually, karate, kung fu and ninjutsu.


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## MJS (Sep 8, 2009)

Regarding the behavior of the MMAists...I did a thread about Brock and his UFC, what was it..100 or 101 antics.  Dana runs the UFC, and despite him supposedly lashing into Brock, which of course was done privately, if he really wanted to do something about it, he would, but apparently he doesn't because IMO, that is what draws the crowds, builds the hype, etc., etc.  

Then again, some of the pro sports players, ie: baseball, football, basketball, really don't show better behavior, so go figure.  

No matter what, in the end, people will love the UFC and hate it.  The same will be said for sports teams.

I'll keep watching the UFC.  I've been watching it since day one, and I dont see myself stopping now.


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## pmosiun1 (Sep 8, 2009)

Regarding the behavior of MMA fighters, it really is not different from other sport where the object of the game is to win. To be honest, i do feel that without guys like Brock, MMA today is very boring. Everyone does the same thing, stand up, clinch and ground. Maybe if full contact weapon is included, it would revive MMA even better but it would only be temporary.

In many ways, MMA could end up like pro wrestling, it is a possibility because we already have a couple of fighters hyping their fights and the fact that the UFC did not really discourage them from not doing so.


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## blindsage (Sep 9, 2009)

pmosiun1 said:


> To be honest, i think fighting in the cage is the essence of martial art because a lot of so called martial art school does not have the essence of martial art, that is to teach you how to fight.


I don't know about the 'essence', but I agree with the sentiment of this statement.



> A lot of these so called martial art claim that MMA fighter does not teach you to defend yourself from more than one opponent and that MMA fighting is just a one on one fight. Lets be honest, there is no such martial art that can teach you to defend from more than one opponent.


A lot of MA claim to do this and fail, but let's be honest, if you think none can, I guess your going down without a fight.



> Personally, i prefer old school ufc which is fun because you have these different style of martial art and you could easily see which works individually, muay thai, boxing, wrestling, sambo, brazilian jiu jitsu and those that do not really work individually, karate, kung fu and ninjutsu.


smh, I prefer old school ufc because it creates comedic comments in which people watched and now equate ring fighting with the 'essence' of MA and the end of be all of 'which works'.


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## blindsage (Sep 9, 2009)

pmosiun1 said:


> Regarding the behavior of MMA fighters, it really is not different from other sport where the object of the game is to win. To be honest, i do feel that without guys like Brock, MMA today is very boring. Everyone does the same thing, stand up, clinch and ground. Maybe if full contact weapon is included, it would revive MMA even better but it would only be temporary.
> 
> In many ways, MMA could end up like pro wrestling, it is a possibility because we already have a couple of fighters hyping their fights and the fact that the UFC did not really discourage them from not doing so.


So you actually care more about the show portion that the quality of the fight. Understood.


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## Tez3 (Sep 9, 2009)

pmosiun1 said:


> Regarding the behavior of MMA fighters, it really is not different from other sport where the object of the game is to win. To be honest, i do feel that without guys like Brock, MMA today is very boring. *Everyone does the same thing, stand up, clinch and ground.* Maybe if full contact weapon is included, it would revive MMA even better but it would only be temporary.
> 
> In many ways, MMA could end up like pro wrestling, it is a possibility because we already have a couple of fighters hyping their fights and the fact that the UFC did not really discourage them from not doing so.


 

Thank you, it's taken me a full ten minutes to stop laughing and dry my eyes at this. Imagine everyone doing the same thing in MMA, dear me they'll be saying everyone who fights Muay Thai does the same thing next!
MMA doesn't need reviving, it's hale and hearty and coming to a venue near you sooner than you think.
Weapons, oh dear, I love it when someone misses the point of MMA totally.


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## mook jong man (Sep 10, 2009)

Hey why stop at weapons , after we get bored with that we can then watch christians fight wild animals like lions and bears.

Then when we're sick of that we can fill up the arena with water , put some triremes in there and have mock naval battles .


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## Skpotamus (Sep 10, 2009)

As kind of a side note, the Dog Brothers actually have had real contact stick fighting matches at some MMA events, but decided that it wasn't a good course for them to pursue.


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## Tez3 (Sep 10, 2009)

MMA brutal? How many of you TMA people have been to a tournament or competition where children as young as 5 or 6 are going at each other head shots, face shots? I've seen very young teens going for KOs at karate and kickboxing comps, people have posted up here videos of 14 year olds KOing each other in TKD bouts. I've seen kids of 10 taking nose bending punches and kicks causing blood to fly everywhere. Thats brutal. In MMA here under 16 fight amateur which means no head shots, in fact I've never seen anyone under 14 fight at all.

If you don't like MMA don't watch it, *simples*!
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=55085907066&topic=12586


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## K831 (Sep 10, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> MMA brutal? How many of you TMA people have been to a tournament or competition where children as young as 5 or 6 are going at each other head shots, face shots? I've seen very young teens going for KOs at karate and kickboxing comps, people have posted up here videos of 14 year olds KOing each other in TKD bouts. I've seen kids of 10 taking nose bending punches and kicks causing blood to fly everywhere. Thats brutal. In MMA here under 16 fight amateur which means no head shots, in fact I've never seen anyone under 14 fight at all.
> 
> If you don't like MMA don't watch it, *simples*!
> http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=55085907066&topic=12586


 
Couple things in my opinion... 

1.) MMA guys fight through small cuts (which, on the head bleed big) and even though the damage is very minimal, people see it as incredibly violent. Blood on the face and their still swinging or working for a submission.

2.) Lots of MMA guys are 18-30, shaved heads, mohawks, tat's, rippling muscles and determined (mean) looks as they enter the ring. That scares people. 

I think MMA has some brutality to it. I mean, they do want to hit each other. I just don't see how it is any more brutal than a lot of other sports. Those big stupid gloves boxers wear (I love boxing, by the way) allow them to just punish their brains with repetitive hits. I went to one of my little brothers foot ball games last week and parents are just screaming "hit that kid, hit him hard!" or "rush that QB, I want him seeing stars!" 

The other thing too, the guy who is gonna stand out to people who don't watch much is a freak (although talented) like Brock who pounds on someone like a gorilla, then spends his post fight interview talking about beer and humping his wife. Seems like brutal thugs. You wont see as much coverage when the winner runs over to his fallen opponent to be sure he is ok, then spends half his post fight interview talking about how great it was to fight so and so and how tough they are and how it could have gone either way on any night. That's just not exciting to put on Yahoo news.


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## shaolinmonkmark (Sep 10, 2009)

M1 and Pride are the ones i love(R.I.P. Pride)
To me they are /were the best.


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## TheArtofDave (Nov 26, 2010)

Couple things in my opinion... 

1.) MMA guys fight through  small cuts (which, on the head bleed big) and even though the damage is  very minimal, people see it as incredibly violent. Blood on the face and  their still swinging or working for a submission.

K831, I don't see bleeding as violent. What I did see as violent was Diaz vs Davis. Which should have been stopped because the face of Marcus Davis looked like a Picasso painting after the match. There was no need for a unanimous decision.

Blood is not going to be a problem unless it blinds the fighters, then the corner man will have to stop it, or the bout ends in a TKO. It's the ref's job to be responsible to protect the fights & stop the fights. Now some times we scratch our heads at the judgment of the ref. Some time we wonder why a fight can't continue. It happens.
 
2.) Lots of MMA guys are 18-30,  shaved heads, mohawks, tat's, rippling muscles and determined (mean)  looks as they enter the ring. That scares people. 

The way a fighter looks doesn't scare me. Nobody is forcing you to watch. How those 18-30 males choose to express themselves is not up to me. I don't judge somebody as human being based on that criteria. I watch them for their martial art, or wrestling background to see how they fare against the competition.

You've got to look mean & determined to compete. It's called focus. Especially with your adrenaline is off of the charts. I'm relatively new to BJJ. But lets say you are fighting me. Would you rather go in there smiling wanting to shake my hand, or focused, & determined not giving away your game plan? I think you'd rather be focused. Because you'd respect my ability as much as I'd respect yours. It's about testing that ability & pushing yourself.

Surely you can stop being so shallow as to just people how on they express themselves. If you're scared by what two guys look like in a combat sport setting. I'd hate to watch you cry at a boxer getting knocked out, or tackles in football.
 
I think MMA has some brutality  to it. I mean, they do want to hit each other. I just don't see how it  is any more brutal than a lot of other sports. Those big stupid gloves  boxers wear (I love boxing, by the way) allow them to just punish their  brains with repetitive hits. I went to one of my little brothers foot  ball games last week and parents are just screaming "hit that kid, hit  him hard!" or "rush that QB, I want him seeing stars!" 

MMA is a full contact sport so they've got to be aggressive to score points, or a knock out, or submission, in the allotted amount of round time. It's either 3 5 minute rounds, or 5 minute rounds. That's only strictly for the UFC. Different organizations have different rules.

Boxers wear 6 oz gloves. Heavyweights in the UFC wear 4 oz gloves. I'm not sure what size the other divisions wear. Maybe somebody can tell us or I will look it up. People get into the games. The point of football is to hit & hit hard. The point of MMA is to stop the fight by way of ko, tko, ref stoppage, submission, decision, or dq in rare cases. Which usually means somebody is getting fired if they get disqualified. The point of MMA is not to hurt the other guy, its to end the fight. It's up to the fighters to defend themselves. Just like in boxing. The only difference is in MMA you're seeing more than one form of fighting instead of seeing two guys punch each other in the face.
 
The other thing too, the guy  who is gonna stand out to people who don't watch much is a freak  (although talented) like Brock who pounds on someone like a gorilla,  then spends his post fight interview talking about beer and humping his  wife. Seems like brutal thugs. You wont see as much coverage when the  winner runs over to his fallen opponent to be sure he is ok, then spends  half his post fight interview talking about how great it was to fight  so and so and how tough they are and how it could have gone either way  on any night. That's just not exciting to put on Yahoo news.

That is not a staple of all fighters. This has also happened although completely different. Strike Force had a brawl with the Diaz brothers after a fight ended, another fighter came in when he had no business, and a near riot broke out. However, Dana White had a whip the dog session. Brock apologized & explained that was his WWE moment of the night, & it happened because he was so jacked up & won against Mir. He dominated Mir. So I can see his point. He also lost to Cain Velasquez too after getting caught. 

Fighters make mistakes. Brock got sick & came back. He got humbled once by illness & a second time by getting his *** kicked. The point is people watch MMA because of the fights. Also because UFC Champions defend their belts pretty regular. Dana White doesn't tolerate any crap. He may be an ******* but he has to be in order to get business done.

Brock will come back as a better fighter. You can't judge a sport on the whole just on the mistakes of one guy. You won't find footage of Brock's past outburst because I'm sure the UFC made the edit, then destroyed it. Also they'll make people pull the video if they have it due to the Zuffa copyright.


In closing MMA is not for everybody. But it's not a bunch of scary guys fighting. Some of them be may crazy though. A lot of the guys fighting are happily married. Some aren't/ Who really cares. They are in great shape, are great fighters, & even if its not your cup of tea you shouldn't look it at as a bunch of scary guys.

Mixed Martial Arts.. you're getting to see a wide variety martial artists fight full contact. With the fighting champions of UFC you honestly can't tell me that any other combat sport offers more unless maybe its one I'm not familiar with because I don't get it in my area. 

Enlighten me if so. I'll look it up on youtube. I love the sport, but I hate Strike Force & refuse to watch it.


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