# True story...or myth...a gun story told over 20 years...



## billc (May 23, 2014)

When I first took a shooting class (back in the early 90s) the instructor told a story about bad habits being formed.  The story was about an instructor who insisted his students pick up their brass after shooting their revolvers (back when revolvers were the standard issue weapon).  Well, as the story goes, one student later got into a gun fight and was gunned down...as he bent to pick up his brass...

Now in 2014, another firearm instructor told a similar story...a firearm instructor was obsessive about keeping his range clean of brass.  He had every student collect their brass and then line it up on the bench in front of them...as the story goes...a student gets in a gun fight...and gets gunned down...and when they find his body...his brass is lined up in a neat line...

Is there any original truth to this story...or was is something made up to teach a lesson...?


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## jezr74 (May 23, 2014)

Brass are shells? 
sounds like a story since some parts don't make sense to me. So looks to have the making of a fable like story. 

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## drop bear (May 23, 2014)

LIke that guy who does the gun disarm and then gives it back or that guy who does sport fighting and let's go because the other person taps.

Variations of an urban myth.


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## jks9199 (May 23, 2014)

It actually goes back to a real incident.  It was the CHP Newhall incident.  In the aftermath of the Newhall incident, there were a lot of lessons learned and practices changed - but there was no actual evidence that anyone pocketed their brass.  Here's a link that breaks down the truth about it.

However -- I do think the idea of practicing sound tactics rather than convenience is a winner.  There are many cases that can be shown where people did something stupid in reality, because they do it for convenience or to be nice to their training partner when practicing.


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## jezr74 (May 24, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> It actually goes back to a real incident.  It was the CHP Newhall incident.  In the aftermath of the Newhall incident, there were a lot of lessons learned and practices changed - but there was no actual evidence that anyone pocketed their brass.  Here's a link that breaks down the truth about it.
> 
> However -- I do think the idea of practicing sound tactics rather than convenience is a winner.  There are many cases that can be shown where people did something stupid in reality, because they do it for convenience or to be nice to their training partner when practicing.



Ok, I understand the story now. But don't see what the lesson would be. I didn't see any talk that it caused any issue.


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## ballen0351 (May 24, 2014)

Maryland state police had similar training flaws back in the 60s  they were taught to dump the brass in their hands then put it in their pockets on the range to make clean up easier.   Guys would get into gun fight then when over find brass in their pockets and not remember putting it there.


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## billc (May 24, 2014)

Thanks everyone.  It is interesting to see these stories after 20 years of separation...like the telephone game...but with two decades of separation...


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## Tgace (May 24, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Maryland state police had similar training flaws back in the 60s  they were taught to dump the brass in their hands then put it in their pockets on the range to make clean up easier.   Guys would get into gun fight then when over find brass in their pockets and not remember putting it there.



That's what I've heard as well...its not really a story of "picking up" brass as it is one of retaining the brass in hand and pocketing it. That will slow down the reload cycle considerably. I've seen similar training scars in carbine training where people try to put empty mags in dump pouches instead of dropping them to the ground. The idea is to avoid damaging the mags by dropping them....or some strange "combat retention" philosophy. Buy training mags or use older mags for drop training. 

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## drop bear (May 24, 2014)

Tgace said:


> That's what I've heard as well...its not really a story of "picking up" brass as it is one of retaining the brass in hand and pocketing it. That will slow down the reload cycle considerably. I've seen similar training scars in carbine training where people try to put empty mags in dump pouches instead of dropping them to the ground. The idea is to avoid damaging the mags by dropping them....or some strange "combat retention" philosophy. Buy training mags or use older mags for drop training.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2



Well if you did fire and movement. At the end of the training you would have to track back finding all your dropped magazines. Which would suck.


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## donnaTKD (May 24, 2014)

i'm ex british army (****7673) and we always picked up brass after a range shoot to keep the range clean but also it helped the instructors in counting how many had been fired.

the mag "dropping" - doesn't happen you take one out you put it in your combat jacket pocket and put the new one in --- mags never touch the ground cos of the damage issue - you damage your mag it may not load properly and it could damage the spring in the mag which would stop the rounds from entering the breach properly --- just how i was taught.  

i don't much like guns but still have 13 round browning 9mm and a bosnian AK47 --- both in police custody and both only used for training purposes so that the firearms team get used to hearing the different sounds.  personally i love the browning but the AK has so much recoil on it that on anything other than single shot it's more or less a wste of time - JMO

the story i can believe - but it's a revolver - did they have speed loaders for them ????? i could understand it more if the speedloaders full of rounds were kept in a pocket and that the empty shells were dumped into the pocket that the speedloader came out of - that would make more sense to me anyways.


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## ballen0351 (May 24, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Well if you did fire and movement. At the end of the training you would have to track back finding all your dropped magazines. Which would suck.



That's better then piss poor training practices  for the ease of later clean up which could get someone killed


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## Tgace (May 24, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> the mag "dropping" - doesn't happen you take one out you put it in your combat jacket pocket and put the new one in --- mags never touch the ground cos of the damage issue - you damage your mag it may not load properly and it could damage the spring in the mag which would stop the rounds from entering the breach properly --- just how i was taught.



Unless you are in an actual combat zone where replacement Mag's are scarce mag retention is a training scar...magazines are disposable items. In LE/SWAT or civilian self defense scenarios you should drop and reload ASAP.

Most modern polymer magazines don't care if you drop them....

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## wimwag (May 25, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> the AK has so much recoil on it that on anything other than single shot it's more or less a wste of time - JMO
> .





Short controlled bursts my friend.  Short controlled bursts.  Kind of like combat pistol training, bang bang, adjust aim, bang bang, adjust...get it?  Muscle memory drills also help.  As a child you developed muscle memory pointing at what you wanted because you couldn't speak yet.  The same goes for firearms.  You just need some practice.  I feel bad for you in the UK.  As a sport, shooting ranks up there with football for a lot of us.  As a life saving tool, it should be readily available.


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## donnaTKD (May 25, 2014)

oh i get it alright but am only allowed to fire the darn thing about 4 or 5 times a year when they're doing the drills with some newbie.  totally sucks but hell these are the rules over here.  as for muscle memory i doesn't get used often enough to remember which muscles need to do the remembering 

i fully agree with what you're saying --- the only way to get experience is to be in armed forces that's it nothing else


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## billc (May 25, 2014)

Or, join your version of the NRA...they even have a group trying to get gun rights for people in Russia...


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## donnaTKD (May 25, 2014)

yeah but am not in russia 

don't think that there is anyone willing (stupid) enough to court the media about gun laws in this country - just not gunna happen.  our gun laws are as they are and they're being tightened year on year.


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## Rumy73 (May 27, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Maryland state police had similar training flaws back in the 60s  they were taught to dump the brass in their hands then put it in their pockets on the range to make clean up easier.   Guys would get into gun fight then when over find brass in their pockets and not remember putting it there.



Yes, we in MD have brass in pocket. Whereas, Va cops had a habit of putting strippers phone number in their pockets and not remember putting them there. Lonely dudes on the range.


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