# Killer Instinct Training



## Sifu Barry Cuda (Mar 22, 2005)

Hey everybody,It was suggested I start a thread on a topic I feel quite strongly about, so here it goes.What does everybody here do to train the mental aspect of the streetfight? Bruce Lee said and it was told to me a thousand times by Vunak and Inosanto that when the crap hits the fan up to 90 percent of what you know will go out the window.How many of you train the mental aspect of Killer Instinct and what do you do? Looking foward to hearing from you, Barry www.combatartsusa.com                   i


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## Cruentus (Mar 22, 2005)

Sifu Barry Cuda said:
			
		

> Hey everybody,It was suggested I start a thread on a topic I feel quite strongly about, so here it goes.What does everybody here do to train the mental aspect of the streetfight? Bruce Lee said and it was told to me a thousand times by Vunak and Inosanto that when the crap hits the fan up to 90 percent of what you know will go out the window.How many of you train the mental aspect of Killer Instinct and what do you do? Looking foward to hearing from you, Barry www.combatartsusa.com                   i



I have an article that I wrote for "themartialist" (www.themartialist.com) on the famed "killer instinct" that you might find interesting. You may not agree with my entire premise, but it will educate all the same.

I may post it on my site in parts after it is published, but I'll have to get Phil's feedback on that to make sure that would be o.k....

Paul


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## rutherford (Mar 22, 2005)

Barry, you're probably more qualified to talk about my Killer Instinct training than I am.  I was with a Progressive Fighting System school in the mid 90's, own Paul Vunak's video on the subject, and attended a 2-day seminar by Dion Riccardo that focused entirely on the topic.

Here's a good summary article written by Paul Vunak: http://www.geocities.com/jkdresources/killerinstinct.html?200522

There were many more drills than the two mentioned at the end of that article, but I'm sure you're familiar with all of them.

In application, this is almost exactly how I fight.  Once I move in, I don't have much in the way of coherant thoughts when fighting.  Often it's like a small part in the back of my head says, "There's an opening."  Meanwhile, the part of me that is acting is already three or four moves ahead.  

I do have a lot of trouble relaxing if the fight goes to the ground, and you have to tie me up pretty good for me to pause long enough to start to relax and start opening up to finding a way out.  In any long wrestling confrontation I'm sure my heightened aggression would lead me to be quickly tired out, but honestly a long confrontation is also the last thing I want.

As to losing 90% of what you know . . . I have a slightly different take on this.  In a live confrontation, perhaps you don't do exactly what you've practiced.  But I believe if you're aware and striving to win you'll find yourself doing things you'd never thought of before because they're exatly what's right for the situation.  I have often looked back and said, "Wow!  What the hell did I do there?  That was amazing!"


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## Aikia (Mar 22, 2005)

I too had written a thesis on killer instinct some years ago. Can't seem to find the paper now but the general idea was/is "You don't control killer instinct. Killer instinct controls you." Martial arts training helps you discover ways to better use the natural instinct. The more you experience the instinct, in sparring for example, the more you can limit the drive to finish or in this case over do it.


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## James Kovacich (Mar 22, 2005)

Aikia said:
			
		

> I too had written a thesis on killer instinct some years ago. Can't seem to find the paper now but the general idea was/is "You don't control killer instinct. Killer instinct controls you." Martial arts training helps you discover ways to better use the natural instinct. The more you experience the instinct, in sparring for example, the more you can limit the drive to finish or in this case over do it.


For me, someone who isn't a killer, thats a good explanation. I think Dan and Vu are right except, they left out the part where our "natural instict" (which is trained) comes into play.


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## Tgace (Mar 22, 2005)

I dont know if "killer instinct" is the right term. As to "truly" have that you need to be a psychopath. We are all "capable" of it to various degrees, but I dont believe its "instinctual".

I think you need to train students to realize that they are capable of far more than they realize. Thats what basic/boot in the military is about (IMO). Its not about "training in" skills at that level as much as it's about placing people under high levels of stress (physically and mentally) and waking them up to the fact that they can "drive on". To do that, I believe you have to take the student out of his comfort zone and impress upon him the fact that its not as much about success or failure as it is about not quitting.


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## James Kovacich (Mar 22, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I dont know if "killer instinct" is the right term. As to "truly" have that you need to be a psychopath. We are all "capable" of it to various degrees, but I dont believe its "instinctual".
> 
> I think you need to train students to realize that they are capable of far more than they realize. Thats what basic/boot in the military is about (IMO). Its not about "training in" skills at that level as much as it's about placing people under high levels of stress (physically and mentally) and waking them up to the fact that they can "drive on". To do that, I believe you have to take the student out of his comfort zone and impress upon him the fact that its not as much about success or failure as it is about not quitting.


I think you gave a good answer for Barry.

I do know, that for me, a lot of what I do and can do is because the way I train. To be able to react without thinking. Just do. That comes from the way I train.

I also know that when it comes to fighting, mentally I'm ahead of the average guy out the gate. So it too has it's merit.


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## Sifu Barry Cuda (Mar 23, 2005)

Great posts everybody.In the 80s Vunak was very big on killer instinct training.I learned that with certain methodologies you can turn it on and off like a switch.Bruce Lee could laugh and joke one minute, spar with you like a raving lunatic and then laugh and joke 2 seconds later.Paul always said the only difference between Mike Tyson on crack and Tim Conway is that one guy can get there faster.Anybody can summon up killer instinct if they know how.Some people need to be pushed and pushed to fight for their life, and some can turn it on at will.Tahts why it should be trained like you train the jab cross.When I was in the army Ive seen people that you never thought they could make it the 6 weeks of basic yet they were "toughened up".This should be done in martialarts schools.In my earlier post I kind of insinuated that the psycho with killer instinct would beat the trained guy because if the trained guy has no grasp of that kind of attitude he would be overwhelmed by the psycho,s mental state. Barry www.combatartsusa.com


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## Tgace (Mar 23, 2005)

Personally I would refrain from using the term "killer instinct training" in a public course. Could lead to some interesting questions in court. "Mental Toughness Training" is better IMO. and pretty much the same thing.

Heres a relevant link...

http://www.fullcombat.com/Articles/Motivational/crunchtime.html


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## Mush (Mar 23, 2005)

Sifu Barry Cuda said:
			
		

> Great posts everybody.In the 80s Vunak was very big on killer instinct training.I learned that with certain methodologies you can turn it on and off like a switch.Bruce Lee could laugh and joke one minute, spar with you like a raving lunatic and then laugh and joke 2 seconds later.Paul always said the only difference between Mike Tyson on crack and Tim Conway is that one guy can get there faster.Anybody can summon up killer instinct if they know how.Some people need to be pushed and pushed to fight for their life, and some can turn it on at will.Tahts why it should be trained like you train the jab cross.When I was in the army Ive seen people that you never thought they could make it the 6 weeks of basic yet they were "toughened up".This should be done in martialarts schools.


I'd be interested if anyone knows of seminars that focus on this sort of thing in the UK for future development. It's definitely an area I need to improve in. I find I struggle with the amount of aggression I possess in sparring. I struggle to turn it on and keep it on. I've been researching bits myself (Geoff Thompson's book on fear and many great articles by guest Martial Artists on his website) as my instructor does not really discuss or focus too much on the mental side of fighting. Either you've got it or you haven't in his eyes.


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## JKD_Silat (Mar 23, 2005)

Great thread!  I was trying to articulate killer instinct to my girlfriend, because of the recent courtroom shooting case where the suspect shot the judge, the sherrifs deputy, and others before he escaped. The point I found interesting was that he was able to take the gun away from the 5'2, 105 lb. female deputy because she lacked "killer Instinct", and hesitated. My problem is that with all the self defense I've been teaching her over the years, and insisting that she carry pepper spray in her hand when she is walking home at night without me, I really doubt that in the "moment of truth", she'd do anything if she couldnt run away. That really concerns me. I'll pick up Vu's series right away! Thanks gentleman!


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## Feisty Mouse (Mar 23, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I dont know if "killer instinct" is the right term. As to "truly" have that you need to be a psychopath. We are all "capable" of it to various degrees, but I dont believe its "instinctual".
> 
> I think you need to train students to realize that they are capable of far more than they realize. Thats what basic/boot in the military is about (IMO). Its not about "training in" skills at that level as much as it's about placing people under high levels of stress (physically and mentally) and waking them up to the fact that they can "drive on". To do that, I believe you have to take the student out of his comfort zone and impress upon him the fact that its not as much about success or failure as it is about not quitting.


Nice post.

I think although this training is clearly important, how you train students is critical.  Most students walking into a martial arts studio are not planning (I hope) to engage in street fights or bar brawls necessarily.


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## James Kovacich (Mar 23, 2005)

I lose potential students for a simialr reason. I tell them that they don't have to be full contact fighters but theres only one way to really know if our system works.


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## Cruentus (Apr 15, 2005)

I am going to stir up this dead thread now that my article is out.

I wrote an article on this subject for "The Martialist" e-zine. I had done some pretty in depth research on the subject.

In a nutshell, and sorry to break it to you all, but there is no "killer instinct."

The name is a misnomer.

Human beings are social animals. Studies have shown that most animals, especially social ones, are averse to killing members of their own species. This would violate the biological need for a being to propigate its own species. This is why when one male gorilla enters anothers territory, they don't kill each other. They beat on the ground and their chest and yell; all different degrees of posturing. If they go to blows, they don't use their emense strength to kill each other. A better illustration is when 2 rattlesnakes fight, they don't bit each other. They have enough venom to kill each other many times over, yet they instead opt to wrestle until one snake or the other submits or flees.

The human instinctual response is no different. A Human's response to danger is to fight, flee, posture, or submit. "Killing" does not fit within the realm of the human resonse to danger. So, to tell someone your going to train them to "tap into a killer instinct" that does not really exist, your doing your students a diservice, and misleading them in their self-defense training to at least a degree.

Now, it is true that human beings, although not instinctual, kill each other all the time. This is because along with being instinctual animals, we are also logical beings. The fact is that there has to be a certain set of conditions in place for one human being to kill another. A violent criminal prepared to kill another already has these conditions in place prior to the attack. You cannot expect most people to gear themselves up to meet their attacker with that level of violent intent no matter how much they train.

So, in terms of training, I think it is important to be able to train people how and when to tap into their fight response, how to draw out aggression, how to have a winning mentality, and how to create as much trauma as quickly as possible on their attacker to stop them enough to offer an opportunity to escape. I think that these are more valid ideas then training someone to tap into something fictitious.

Paul


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## rutherford (Apr 15, 2005)

So, basically you don't like the name?

Is how we describe the training really that important?  I don't think it is, but I still can't help but point out that same species predation certainly occurs in nature.  And the word Cannibalism which describes the act is named after a human tribe. . .


The art I'm currently studying considers the correct feeling essential to proper execution of movements.  Aggression is certainly a part of some of the movements, but for others it's completely counterproductive.  Learning to control and move through these feelings is something I expect takes quite a lot of experience, and I've only taken a few very small steps.


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## TonyM. (Apr 15, 2005)

Tgace and Tulisan caught the correct on killer instinct. Mental toughness is one thing that can be taught. To teach killer instinct is another thing altogether. If you want to read about it do a google search on project MKultra and project Monarch.


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## Cruentus (Apr 15, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> So, basically you don't like the name?



No, I don't like the name. But, the name effects what is taught and how material is taught. Some people build false perceptions and false confidence when they train others to "tap into killer instinct;" these can lead to false expectations that could severely hinder their performance if the trainie was ever seriously attacked.



> Is how we describe the training really that important? I don't think it is,



But it is; at least if your imparting life-saving information, how you impart that information is vital.



> but I still can't help but point out that same species predation certainly occurs in nature.  And the word Cannibalism which describes the act is named after a human tribe. . .



No one is saying that same species lethal violence does not occur, only that it is not instinctual. For human beings to kill each other, a number of elements need to be in place that have little to do with instinct. 



> The art I'm currently studying considers the correct feeling essential to proper execution of movements.  Aggression is certainly a part of some of the movements, but for others it's completely counterproductive.  Learning to control and move through these feelings is something I expect takes quite a lot of experience, and I've only taken a few very small steps.



In a martial art, I can see how in theory you can bring yourself to a higher level of skill to be able to have a degree of emotional control in violent situations. However, in training people for basic self-defense, it is enough of a task to prepare them simply to draw out enough aggression to utilize the fight option.

 :asian:


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## rutherford (Apr 19, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> No one is saying that same species lethal violence does not occur, only that it is not instinctual. For human beings to kill each other, a number of elements need to be in place that have little to do with instinct.


 I see this as only metaphorically related to the training, as it doesn't involve actually killing people.  

So, how does the name change and high level theory impact instruction?

Taking this down from the theoretical, does your article talk about the specifics of training that you prefer?  Would you do so here?


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## Tgace (Apr 19, 2005)

Words mean things, and teaching people that they are somehow now "killers" or tapping into some non-existant "instinct" is....well wrong. Even bayonet training in the Army was taught to tap into "aggression", not any "killer instinct".


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## rutherford (Apr 19, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Words mean things, and teaching people that they are somehow now "killers" or tapping into some non-existant "instinct" is....well wrong. Even bayonet training in the Army was taught to tap into "aggression", not any "killer instinct".



I'm willing to concede the point that the name is a mysnomer.

 :idunno: But, I also have to ask how you can reasonably expect to do anything but kill somebody if you stick them with a bayonet?  And, apparently at least some bayonet training in the army does focus on killing.  http://www.parkwayreststop.com/archives/000450.html

I tend to think that typical bayonet range isn't when JKD Killer Instinct training would focus aggression.  Instead, this is where Paul would probably suggest you attack as a "cold machine".


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## Tgace (Apr 19, 2005)

Just because you kill, doesnt make it instinctual. Studies show that soldiers by and large do it because they have to, not out of instinct. And bayonet killing has become (and some historians say always has been) extremely rare. Some studies show that at H2H range many soldiers prefer to club with their weapons rather than thrust with the cold steel. So much so that some now say that the training itself has become almost as much about "channeled aggression" as it is about combat effectiveness.

Col. Grossman believes that the increased lethality of the modern rifleman is due to operative conditioning (do as you are trained) rather than any "killer instinct".


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## Tgace (Apr 19, 2005)

Heres an interesting article about the nature of human viloence. Even though its titled "Killer Instinct", the author doesnt state that killing itself is "instinctual" only that aggression is a natural phenomena amongst the male of the species. Many (if not all) males are aggressive in defense of territory, competition for mates, etc. but seldomly (granted not "never") kill for it....

http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/books/tbs/media_articles/2002_09_03_times.html



> "The word, "streetfighter," always bothered me. It reminds me of the term, "killer instinct." There is no such thing as a killer instinct. Journalists conjured up the term to describe the boxer, Jack Dempsey. "Streetfighter" is a word in the dictionary; however, at age 57, I have witnessed many fights, but to date, never a single one has taken place in the street. I think of a so-called "streetfighter" as either being some hoodlum, terrorist, or immature kid often being the one who creates fights. Usually, their "records" consist of beating up some drunks, a few kids, and even probably a couple of poor bums. These types respect violence." -Joe Lewis


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## rutherford (Apr 19, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Just because you kill, doesnt make it instinctual. Studies show that soldiers by and large do it because they have to, not out of instinct.




Fine.  Let me try this from the other side.

Is your position accurately summed as follows?

"There's no such thing as killer instinct.  Therefore, any training that uses that term is worthless?"

Because, you guys are doing a lot of talking about what this type of training is not, like you're denying the premise.  But, you're not talking about what aggression / mindset training should be like.  From my point of view, it seems like a lot of strawman.


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## Tgace (Apr 19, 2005)

No..just that people who propose that they are teaching their students that they are tapping into some form of "killer instinct" are doing it to appeal to some juvenile interest in being a big tough "killer" which is about ego in many (male) students. 

"Mental Toughness Training" and other terms are about not giving up, persevering and enabeling the student to tap into aggression when attacked, not fear. Not about "killing".

Good luck on the stand if you ever have to use lethal force and you attempt to argue that you killed out of "instinct" not necessity. Nonexistant and dangerous from a "winning the postfight" angle.


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## rutherford (Apr 19, 2005)

Not only do I still miss the relevance, but now I feel insulted to have participated in such stroking of my male ego.

I stand by my strawman statement, as I don't see what this has to do with the _training_ being discussed.


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## Tgace (Apr 19, 2005)

Well...I guess I know whats taught at your school now. I change my mind, "killer instinct" is good, natural and existant...here maybe you can use some of this guys stuff as a training aid.

http://sammyfranco.com/instinctarticle.htm



> Viciousness is another critical characteristic of the killer instinct. By viciousness I mean *dangerously aggressive behavior or extreme violence.*


Good stuff....:shrug:


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## OUMoose (Apr 19, 2005)

Sorry to be a little late to this thread, but I'll try to catch up.  

This is my method for training "killer instinct"
1) Get about 2 rolls of quarters, since this is going to be a long sessions.
2) Find an arcade that still has that game, and not KI2, as it's not as good.
3) insert quarter.
4) Choose Orchid, as she's the easiest to start with IMO.
5) Proceed to train Killer Instinct until you run out of quarters.

and don't use one of the cheat guides, as you're only cheating yourself...

 :asian: 









  Mood lightened, check.  My work here is done.


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## rutherford (Apr 19, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Well...I guess I know whats taught at your school now. I change my mind, "killer instinct" is good, natural and existant...here maybe you can use some of this guys stuff as a training aid.
> 
> http://sammyfranco.com/instinctarticle.htm
> 
> Good stuff....:shrug:


Who's that?

What's his relationship to Jeet Kune Do?

You ever been involved in any of his _training_?

Look, I totally agree that the name is a mysnomer.  Why can't you see past the name?  I've always seen it used as a metaphor and not really a description of what's involved.  If people have been using the same terms as JKD artists to mean something that it's not, then lets define our own terms.

If "Mental Toughness Training" and "taping into aggression" are phrases which more accurately describe the training, then lets use them and move on.

What's your personal mental toughness and / or aggression training like?  What's typical for police training?


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## Tgace (Apr 19, 2005)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> Sorry to be a little late to this thread, but I'll try to catch up.
> 
> This is my method for training "killer instinct"
> 1) Get about 2 rolls of quarters, since this is going to be a long sessions.
> ...


 
:rofl:......good one.


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## Tgace (Apr 19, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> Who's that?
> 
> What's his relationship to Jeet Kune Do?
> 
> ...


I agree the name is a mysnomer...however names ARE improtant. Some DA (or attny. in a civil suit) gets ahold of some information that your school trains "killer instinct" or "death touch" or whatever and it will become REAL important to you. If the definition doesnt fit (i.e. you know you arent really training any "killer instinct")and it has a likelyhood of actually being detrimental...change it.

Some of the "mental toughness" training I have experienced/come across have run the gamut from training students to "get angry" when attacked, this is using self talk or developing an attitude of "who the **** does this dirtbag think he is trying to keep me from going home tonight!" instead of "oh my god this guy is trying to kill me!" To specific training methods that start from technique, move to scenarios where the student will always "win" as long as the proper principles/tactics are applied (its been discovered that training a technique then doing a scenario where the student pretty much always looses is detrimental) all the way to free form scenario/role play. Even plain old physical conditioning/training is a "mental toughness" component.Ever gone running and just wanted to stop and walk, but forced yourself to keep going? 99% of basic military training is pushing a recruits physical/mental limits to show him/her that he/she is capable of far more than "normal living" has ever pushed them. Heck even the vaunted SEAL "hell week" is all about mental toughness and endurance rather than it is about determining if any one of them has the instinct to kill.....


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