# Muay Thai High Kicks?



## arnisador

We often hear that high kicks are impractical, but I know that Muay Thai does use kicks above the waist--at the least the round kick to the face and a pushing, "jab-like" front kick to the midsection. High knees are also used. What exactly is the Muay Thai philosophy on kicking above the waist?


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## thaiboxer

well kicking wise all round.
- leg kick should land just a fraction above the knee joint, but i mean anywhere on the thigh is going to disable an opponent pretty quickly if they are hard.
- rib kick should never land anywhere but the floating rib area to cause maximum damage.
- head kick might actually happen, but really the MT exponent looks to chop down into the neck with the extremely high kick for instant knockout usually. Actually this is the only kick that the MT exponent should really lean back with to get the leg up high enough.


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## thaiboxer

actually peter aerts the 6'4" "dutch lumberjack" has produced some big MT roundkicks to the head.


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## Drunken Master

High kicks are good as they can deliver much more power than your fist ever can.  However, to land one you have to be seriously quick.

If your not quick you just send you opponent a present of a leg which he can grap leaving you up a certain creek without any form or propulsion.

Goodnight Vienna


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## thaiboxer

> _Originally posted by Drunken Master _
> 
> *High kicks are good as they can deliver much more power than your fist ever can.  However, to land one you have to be seriously quick.
> 
> If your not quick you just send you opponent a present of a leg which he can grap leaving you up a certain creek without any form or propulsion.
> 
> Goodnight Vienna *



well i would rather be on the receiving end of a TKD roundhouse than a MT one, thats for sure. Well i have been on the receiving end of both, one really hurts and one doesnt.
True really about the head kick, it has to be quick but also if you miss a MT one you have to be quick enough to pivot around again and check and protect yourself from an attack launched while you are still turning around. Bit of technique required doing that one.


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## KumaSan

Usually the high kicks are saved for a little later. It's a good idea to either wait until the opponent gets tired and his hands start to drop, so you have a clear line to the neck, or feed a bunch of leg kicks, my favorite combo being jab-cross-low right kick. Throw this one three or four times, then do a jab-cross-high right kick instead, then stand back and wait for the ref to finish counting to 10.

Also, thaiboxer touched on it, but I thought I would clarify a little, we don't really aim for the head, but the neck. The apex of the kick should be around ear level, and it should peak over the bad guy's shoulder, then begin a downward arc into the neck. Anywhere from where the neck meets the shoulder on up to the jaw will work fine usually. Higher kicks will still hurt plenty, but the ko percentage isn't as high.


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## ShiN

Hi everyone,

I want to ask if a 'traditional' side-kick is allowed in muay thai ?
Because I never saw one in my class ..

I always found it a very effective and simple technique, so does anyone know why it is almost never used?


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## thaiboxer

> _Originally posted by ShiN _
> 
> *Hi everyone,
> 
> I want to ask if a 'traditional' side-kick is allowed in muay thai ?
> Because I never saw one in my class ..
> 
> I always found it a very effective and simple technique, so does anyone know why it is almost never used? *



may be traditional in the korean/japanese martial arts but not in muay thai, It may be part of a kickboxers repertoire though. I want to learn the side kick effectively, might use it one day, never know.


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## thaiboxer

"Also, thaiboxer touched on it, but I thought I would clarify a little, we don't really aim for the head, but the neck. "

depends if youve hit them with something to crouch them over, like a jamb kick  then you can kick em in the head with the big one.


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## ShiN

What you are saying is that it is allowed, but it is not a 'true' muay thai technique? Or did I misunderstood that? (sorry, english is not my first language you see.)

I found out in my first few sparring sessions in my MT-class, most fighters didn't know what to do with this technique and I could score with it a'lot, especially as as they advanced to me.


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## thaiboxer

> _Originally posted by ShiN _
> 
> *What you are saying is that it is allowed, but it is not a 'true' muay thai technique? Or did I misunderstood that? (sorry, english is not my first language you see.)
> 
> sorry, no it is not a muay thai technique. but it doesnt mean it cant be a weapon used by a kickboxer.
> 
> I found out in my first few sparring sessions in my MT-class, most fighters didn't know what to do with this technique and I could score with it a'lot, especially as as they advanced to me.
> 
> yes if nobody has seen it before, thats good, see you have a card up your sleeve, you can play around with them for a while.
> 
> hey do you know peter aerts? what do you think of him?*


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## ShiN

Hey, I'm dutch,
of course I know him!  

And I am a very big fan of him, 
do you know his official page? 
www.peteraerts.com 

that's a very cool page.


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## KumaSan

I think one of the reasons the side kick isn't a muay thai technique is that we tend to stand more square to the opponent, rather than side on. This cuts down on the oppurtunities to throw a good side kick. Like you both have said, it's a pretty good technique, especially when the other guys hasn't really seen one. I've seen some guys land some good shots by faking a round kick to get the leg around, then bringing it up into a side kick when their opponent tries to come in.


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## thaiboxer

like everything else, its only as good as the person using it. I mean if the person using it isnt quick enough you can move in quickly and pummel them.


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## arnisador

_Are_ there in fact any illegal kicking techniques in Muay Thai, or can you do any kick you want and it's just that some are conventional?


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## KumaSan

As far as I know, there aren't any illegal kicks, just targets (groin, knees). I haven't read through it in a while, but the muay thai rules for the local sanctioning body is here.


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## thaiboxer

well ive seen some flashy kicks in bouts involving australian kickboxers fighting muay thai rules.


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## arnisador

Skimming through some Muay Thai books tonight I certainly see many pictures of high kicks being thrown.

I am still trying to reconcile this fact with the common perception that Tae Kwon Do is not effective for street self-defense because of its emphasis on high kicks. I am surprised how frequent high kicks seem to be thrown in Muay Thai bouts!


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## arnisador

Thanks for the link to the rules. I'm surprised that the number of rounds is only 3 or 5 based on what I know of Western boxing.

I also notice that one point criterion is Muay Thai style!

It's been mentioned that the roundhouse kick is to the neck--doesn't that violate the following rule:


> ILLEGAL TARGET AREAS:
> (1)   Head  Top and back
> (2)   Neck  Front, side and back
> (3)   Torso  Back


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## thaiboxer

"I am still trying to reconcile this fact with the common perception that Tae Kwon Do is not effective for street self-defense because of its emphasis on high kicks. I am surprised how frequent high kicks seem to be thrown in Muay Thai bouts!"

I dont think its just the high kicks arnisador that tends for people to ridicule TKD for street effectiveness, its the practitioners, theyre generally pretty ordinary, and products of a mcdojang. Its not the art, its the quality of the people who learn and teach the art.
You seen the mpeg of the MT fighter vs. TKD fighter? you can find it here "www.muaythai.fi" then click the multimedia button. This is usually the standard i have encountered as well.


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## KumaSan

Arnisador - 
Yeah, those rules are only for the local amateur governing body. They often change from state to state, county to county. These are mostly a guideline, I've yet to see a fighter penalized for landing a kick to the neck, and if they did, they would probably say it was unintentional. As far as the IFA goes, my understanding is that these guys come from a western Kickboxing background, so even the Muay Thai rules are a little bit skewed from the norm. But right now they're the only game in town, so that's how we play.


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## Damian Mavis

I might be wrong but ....no I'm pretty sure there aren't any illegal kicking techniques, however.... this is from an amateur Thai fighting point of view.  Maybe in Thailand in professional Thai fights they actually tell the fighters "ok, NO side kicks" but I don't think so.  I've seen plenty of Thai fighters use all kinds of dynamic Tae Kwon Do kicks in their arsenal to throw off their opponent, but mainly stick to the Thai basics: round kick and front kick.

Damian Mavis


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## ShiN

hey guys,
do you rate taekwondo kicks effective or not in muay thai?
It seems really effective to me...


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## KumaSan

I've not witnessed much in the way of Tae Kwon Do kicks, to be honest. Most of what I have seen is the demonstration jumping spinning kicking board breaking stuff. The other stuff looks okay, but there's a point I think I need to make...

:soapbox: 

Here goes. There actually is a difference between Muay Thai and kickboxing with Muay Thai rules. Arnisador mentioned earlier that the rules I pointed him to stated that Muay Thai "flavor" is part of the scoring criteria. It is very apparent to someone who is experienced whether or not you are doing Muay Thai, or if you are just kickboxing with leg kicks and a clinch. There are some really good articles over at stickgrappler's that discuss this in detail, written by a Canadian who moved to Thailand to train. I highly suggest reading this to everyone interested in Muay Thai. 
:soapbox: 

Okay, off the soapbox. The point is, if you just want to fight effectively (a very good goal, I'm on the JKD track myself) then there's nothing wrong with taking kicks from TKD and trying them in a Muay Thai match. As I've stated before, the side kick in particular can be pretty effective when set up right. There are no rules that say you can't use it, or an axe kick, or any other kick you want. However, if you want to do Muay Thai, then do Muay Thai. There's probably more to say on this, but I have to get back to work   I'll be back later.


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## KumaSan

Wow, this forum sure died. I hope that little rant didn't scare everyone away. I wasn't having the *best* day at work and it just kind of came out.


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## thaiboxer

kumasan
thanks for that link, it was a great read.


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## KumaSan

Glad you liked it. I read it every so often to put things into perspective. There's lots of other good stuff on stickgrappler's site, like drills and such. Those posts are my favorite. That guy who posted that (samboboy) has his own site up now also here. The camp where he stayed has a website here.


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## ThuNder_FoOt

Hi, I'm new to  the site and i figured I would throw my 2 cents into this thread.

My training is the product of both Taekwondo and Muay Thai. I actually learned TKD first, so it was pretty much my foundation for everything else. My experience has taught me that the 2 arts are very similar, give or take a few things. Some TKD kicks seems to be faster,  and are chambered differently presenting a little confusion in what technique is about to be launched.

Just a note, TKD doesn't emphasize high kicking, it focuses on mid-kicking. The trunk is the most frequently attacked, as it is the furthest target from your opponent. 

As far as using TKD kicks in MT fights, I highly recommend it. Most Thai boxers are accustomed to the everyday roundhouse kick and front kick. I always surprise people with a kick that is out of the normal... remember we don't wish to fight like mechanical robots! A good axe kick, hook kick, or side kick will *ALWAYS* get the attention of the fighter. For the most part, all TKD kicks are legal in MT, and also will score, if you can pull them off.

Basically... yes, I think TKD kicks in MT are a very good idea... (not talking about jump spinning kicks, or demo kicks obviously.).:boxing:

[edit]  A good example of a TKD person gone Muay Thai is Ernie Reyes Jr. He always throws in some of his TKD techniques, and most of the Thai fighters don't know how to defend against them.


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## ShiN

hey thanks for your great reply, I hope I can share your experience on this, for I have studied Tang Soo Do first and have just started MT.


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## ThuNder_FoOt

Sure no problem. I'm eager to hear how your experience will turn out. AS long as you remember how to maintain your TSD as TSD, and keep your MT as MT, then I believe you should have no problem mixing up the techniques.   Good luck on your training!


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## KumaSan

Hey could either of you two (ShiN or ThuNder_FoOt) post on this thread comparing the MT round kick and the roundhouse style kicks of your other arts? I would be interested in hearing about this.

Thanks!


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## arnisador

I think that the Filipino art Yaw Yan also has a distinctive and powerful roundhouse kick, the "Mountain Storm Kick".

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Mound/6717/index.html
http://users.netropolis.net/yawyan/


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## thaiboxer

arnisador your a legend.
yep ive seen that yaw yan site. the good old mountain storm kick sounds extremely similar to the muay thai kick, infact identical really. the thai kick can do this also chop down. well it does to the neck and leg anyway.
good stuff


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by thaiboxer _
> 
> *arnisador your a legend*



I hope that means the same thing down under that it does here!

I believe that Yaw Yan practitioners consider their kick different from though similar to the Muay Thai version.


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## thaiboxer

"





> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> I hope that means the same thing down under that it does here!
> 
> I believe that Yaw Yan practitioners consider their kick different from though similar to the Muay Thai version. *


"

legend - good bloke, top fella

yeah i know they do.
read pop praditbatuga's home page "the belt is in the ring", geez he goes off about everyone stealing thai techniques etc


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by thaiboxer _
> 
> *read pop praditbatuga's home page "the belt is in the ring", geez he goes off about everyone stealing thai techniques etc *



I have wondered about this myself. I know there is some dispute between the Cambodians and Thais about who originated it from your post in this thread and I have now heard it both ways with the savate-Muay Thai connection, but the Muay Thai round kick especially seems often stolen bya ny number of arts or practitioners. (I am learning it in JKD.) They're right to be a bit frustrated by it I think!


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## ThuNder_FoOt

Don't worry Kumasan, already taken care of.

I would pretty much agree that alot of people are taking technique's from MT because its so darn effective.  ALot of hybrid styles that people are creating today, have some form of MT technique in it. I know alot of MA's share techniques, but Im talking about things unique to MT. me personally, i don't see anything wrong with it, it will only make MT more popular than it already is. i need to check out that Yaw yan though, I've never heard about that style... nor did I know it had MT characteristics.:asian:


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## thaiboxer

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> I have wondered about this myself. I know there is some dispute between the Cambodians and Thais about who originated it from your post in this thread and I have now heard it both ways with the savate-Muay Thai connection, but the Muay Thai round kick especially seems often stolen bya ny number of arts or practitioners. (I am learning it in JKD.) They're right to be a bit frustrated by it I think! *



yeah i suppose arnisador. JKD is a little different though isnt it? I mean its basically taking from all the arts and creating a what seems to be an effective self defence system for each individual hey or something like that? Although it appears to me that there are wide and varied opinions of what Bruce Lee's direction for JKD actually was.
Compared to a seperate art that doesnt have this philosophy, and then they use it and call it their own technique, i guess they have  a right to fired then, but JKD doesnt promote that does it?


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## arnisador

I'll say this--in JKD they seem to be very good about giving credit where credit is due. We discuss Muay Thai kicks, savate kicks, kali drills--it's clear that the JKD idea is to take what is useful from other arts and mold that into a useful fighting system.


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## Damian Mavis

Yes giving credit is important... alot of instructors take stuff from other arts but never give credit...leaving students to think that there instructor is all knowing.  I run a Tae Kwon Do school but I train in Muay Thai/JKD/Silat/Philipino arts and I always give credit to my instructor and the art when showing new stuff to my students.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## KumaSan

I agree as well on giving credit where it is due. I love watching the K-1, and seeing someone say he is a kyokushin stylist, yet oddly enough, his ring technique looks almost completely Muay Thai.


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## Damian Mavis

Bingo!! Exactly! I hate that.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## ThuNder_FoOt

arnisador:

how often do you guys practice MT drills? And I was also wondering, among the drills you do practice, if there were any drills that you guys excluded for whatever reasons. I wanna other's opinions on MT weaknesses.


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## KumaSan

I don't want to speak for arnisador, but I actually study a similar style. Our school just has a larger emphasis on MT (from the sound of it anyway). The first 2 years of our curriculum is all pretty much MT. Anyway, some of the limitations, IMHO, of MT include are the lack of weapons, lack of ground work, and no dealing with multiple opponents.


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## Damian Mavis

I study at a Muay Thai academy that also trains us in Philipino arts, jun fan/jeet kun do, pentjack silat, submission grappling and boxing.  Are we all from the same family tree?  i.e. Dan Inosanto, Ajarn Chai?  I know theres a lot of schools out there run by instructors that trained under Guro Dan Inosanto so I won't be surprised if thats the case.  

On a side note, Guro Dan Inosanto is holding a seminar in my city in July.  I can't wait to meet him.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Baoquan

harking back to central thread - MT vs TKD kicks - there is an Aussie middle-weight kickboxer - sorry can't remember the guy's name - who is a TKD belt and kicks @ss in the ring. Those "spinning back kick board breaking" drills that are so common in TKD - well he uses them in the ring, to good effect. Incredibly fast, 2 and 3 kick comobos to the upper body and head - absolutely devastating.

That being said, i've sparred with TKD guys before - a good mate of mine is looking down the barrel of his 2nd Dan grading - and a LOT of them dont kick hard, or that well.

IMHO, it's often not what u have that counts, it what u do with it.

Cheers

Bao


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## arnisador

In the JKD class we train only a handful of techniques and not frequently _in class_ though you're expected to work on them at home of course. The round kick is the only one seen frequently. So, in short: We don't do much.


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## KumaSan

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Are we all from the same family tree?  i.e. Dan Inosanto, Ajarn Chai?*



Sounds like it. Ajarn Chai is coming out this way in a couple weeks. On my birthday no less!


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## Damian Mavis

I did a seminar with Ajarn Chai last summer and it was great.  He's got another one going on this weekend in Kingston which is only a couple hours away but I've got commitments all weekend and I can't go...not even to watch my buddy get his instructorship.  I really wanted to see him get his butt kicked haha. 

Ah well I get to go to a seminar with guro Dan Inosanto this summer and I'm excited about that.  I've been taking 2 Kali/fma classes a week to get ready for it on top of all my other training, hope I'm not too far behind for the seminar.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *not even to watch my buddy get his instructorship.   *



How does this work? How and why is an instructorship awarded?


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## Damian Mavis

As a thai boxer you can test for several levels of "shorts". Your first test (after a minimum of a year training I'm told) is when you are certified to wear shorts that have the Thai printing across the front.  Before that your supposed to wear blank Thai shorts.  After that there are 2 more levels (I Think!) making the total 3 levels before finally being elligible to work towards your instructorship test.  Each test gets more and more difficult with the first test starting off at semi contact to your body and legs while you are trying to kick and knee the thai pads a certain number of times in 3 minutes...you have to do that twice with 2 different holders beating on you while holding for you (ie kicking you in the legs and ribs).  The second and third tests get progressivley harder with the instructorship test being full contact to all your targets including your head.  Your expected to kick and knee the pad while the holder (an instructor from another school) is firing off kicks and pad punches at you.  It's not easy but it sure looks fun!

I myself will be testing for my first shorts certification in the next few weeks.  Can't wait.

Oops! I think you were wondering on the time frame for an instructorship in Muay Thai?  I don't know exactly but my friend has been training for 4 years AND has trained in Thailand (I am pretty sure that training in thailand shaves off some of the time required to go for instructorship) he's also fought in the ring at the amateur level but I don't think that affects the timing involved.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## arnisador

Thanks for all the info. Mr. Mavis . It sounds somewhat similar to Savate's gloves system. Do any of the sub-instructor levels convey and rights or priveleges?


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## Damian Mavis

Any rights or priviledges?  Hmmm I'm not sure what you mean.  Give me an example so I understand what you mean.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## arnisador

For example, after the first shorts are obtained can one be an assistant instructor, or fight in a different skill category, or fight without headgear, or some such? Is there any effect at all of having the shorts other than, well, having the shorts?


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## Damian Mavis

Only respect...... when you see someone with Certified shorts you know he at least once in his training took a mild beating.  Thats just the test though, I'm not sure how other schools are run but the trainings pretty intense here and if you like to go full contact like me you have plenty of oppurtunities to go in the ring.  At a certain point ring pracitce is a normal part of the more experienced class and coming from a Traditional martial art background I have to admit that those guys are relatively tough, they train to take a hit.  It took me several years in Tae Kwon Do to get to the same mental toughness level it takes most thai boxers just one year to get to.  That has nothing to do with skill, just when you get hit enough... all your fear goes out the window.

I'm wandering off topic so I'll just finish up with... no the certifications don't get you anything besides being asked to help teach or if you are a certified instructor to actually take over a class.  For practice in ring fighting you still wear headgear and mouth guard just like a boxing club no matter what level of shorts you are but the most experienced guys might not wear any protection on their shins which means they are blocking full contact shin kicks with their shin...bone on bone.  It hurts.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## KumaSan

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *...not even to watch my buddy get his instructorship.  I really wanted to see him get his butt kicked haha. *



That sucks. Last year (day after my birthday...hmmm...pattern?) at the seminar, we watched three people test for their instructorship. Yes, they get beat pretty good. It's not unheard of for there to be knockouts during the tests.

As far as time frames go, one of the women testing last year was allowed to test early due to the fact that she was moving back to Japan shortly after the test. She still had to know everything, but Ajarn cut her a little slack on technical ability. Specifically he said she needed some more work on her Ram Muay, but he passed her when she would normally need to come back in 6 months and try again. But she still had to do the pad testing and get kicked and punched the same as everyone else.

And arnisador, if your curious to learn more about the certifications (and you too, Mr. Mavis, if you want to see it in writing) Stickgrappler has a page about Thai Boxing Association testing guidelines. It's a pretty good reference, especially since www.thaiboxing.com seems to still be down.


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## arnisador

Thanks *KumaSan*, I'm printing off the test requirements tor ead later! I find it interesting to learn about these things even though I don't practice the art.


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## thaiboxer

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *"Only respect...... when you see someone with Certified shorts you know he at least once in his training took a mild beating."
> 
> well i dont know of any muay thai exponents that i know that havent taken a beating during a training session, never mind a mild one.
> 
> 
> "Thats just the test though, I'm not sure how other schools are run but the trainings pretty intense here and if you like to go full contact like me you have plenty of oppurtunities to go in the ring.  "
> 
> good stuff
> 
> 
> "For practice in ring fighting you still wear headgear and mouth guard just like a boxing club no matter what level of shorts you are but the most experienced guys might not wear any protection on their shins which means they are blocking full contact shin kicks with their shin...bone on bone.  It hurts."
> 
> yep thats us*


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## thaiboxer

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *I'll say this--in JKD they seem to be very good about giving credit where credit is due. We discuss Muay Thai kicks, savate kicks, kali drills--it's clear that the JKD idea is to take what is useful from other arts and mold that into a useful fighting system. *



yep thats what i always thought it was about.


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## thaiboxer

> _Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt _
> 
> *arnisador:
> 
> how often do you guys practice MT drills? And I was also wondering, among the drills you do practice, if there were any drills that you guys excluded for whatever reasons. I wanna other's opinions on MT weaknesses. *



you sparring or fighting a muay thai guy thunder? want the low down?


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## ThuNder_FoOt

> _Originally posted by thaiboxer _
> 
> *
> 
> you sparring or fighting a muay thai guy thunder? want the low down? *



Yes, all the time... I also train in MT, and I was just wondering what they might think MT lacks on. If I know what others may think MT's weaknesses are, then I could better prepare my MT so it will be stronger and closer to invincible.


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## thaiboxer

> _Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt _
> 
> *
> 
> "Yes, all the time... I also train in MT, and I was just wondering what they might think MT lacks on. If I know what others may think MT's weaknesses are, then I could better prepare my MT so it will be stronger and closer to invincible. *


"

noone is ever invincible, it only takes one hit at anytime to rock the boat, either when your paying attention or not.
But good stuff you do a few arts.


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## ThuNder_FoOt

> _Originally posted by thaiboxer _
> 
> *"
> 
> noone is ever invincible, it only takes one hit at anytime to rock the boat, either when your paying attention or not.
> But good stuff you do a few arts. *



Hahaha, yes I know  an art can never be invincible. I simply mean to overcome any mistakes I might be able to recognize, so I may be able to further strengthen my MT. The invicibility part of it was just a figure of speech.:asian: :asian:


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## thaiboxer

> _Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt _
> 
> *
> 
> Hahaha, yes I know  an art can never be invincible. I simply mean to overcome any mistakes I might be able to recognize, so I may be able to further strengthen my MT. The invicibility part of it was just a figure of speech.:asian: :asian: *



yeah i thought as much, dont worry, i was only having a friendly stab.


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