# Understanding The Weapon



## MJS (Dec 12, 2005)

Pretty much every Martial Art has defenses against weapons, such as the blade, stick, and gun. Often when discussing the various disarms, etc., I'll come across two types of people. One group says that its important to understand how the weapon is used in order to allow you to have a better defense, while the other group says that the odds of you running into a trained person, someone who knows how to use that weapon to its full extent, is going to be slim to none.

I fall into the first group. After spending quite a bit of time in the FMA's, I've come to have a much better understanding of both the blade and the stick. Granted, we may not face that highly trained attacker on the street, but I'd think that it'd be good to be as prepared as possible. Better to have the skill and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

So...thoughts on this?

Mike


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## ed-swckf (Dec 12, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Pretty much every Martial Art has defenses against weapons, such as the blade, stick, and gun. Often when discussing the various disarms, etc., I'll come across two types of people. One group says that its important to understand how the weapon is used in order to allow you to have a better defense, while the other group says that the odds of you running into a trained person, someone who knows how to use that weapon to its full extent, is going to be slim to none.
> 
> I fall into the first group. After spending quite a bit of time in the FMA's, I've come to have a much better understanding of both the blade and the stick. Granted, we may not face that highly trained attacker on the street, but I'd think that it'd be good to be as prepared as possible. Better to have the skill and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
> 
> ...


 
I would say the second group seems a little risky to me.  I mean a lot of schools will teach how to deal with a wide variety of hand and feet techniques used by fully trained people that we probably won't always if ever meet on the street.  Training for worst case is definitely better, i feel that should apply to weapons also.  Plus a non skilled fighter can still pose a lot of threat, especially if they have used the weapon before in situations, the unpredictable nature should make us want to train toward covering as much as we can.  In my opinion at least.  

However if someone really had 100% intent of stabbing you and that was there ultimate goal, you aren't going to be in a standoff situation and you will probably never even see the blade.


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## arnisador (Dec 12, 2005)

I too am in the first group, but I certainly understand the position of the second group. But of course weapons training does more--it enhances body mechanics, it provides a sound basis for using improvised weapons, in convinces a person that defending against some weapons really _is_ a bad idea (which can be life-saving in and of itself).


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## Andrew Green (Dec 12, 2005)

Yes, understanding the weapon is very important to learning how to deal with it.  Otherwise you end up practicing against straight armed downward stabs ala Jim Carey's In Living Color skit, which, sadly, is pretty much what a lot of people do as their weapons defences....

I think it is also very important to spar against weapons and learn what the possibilities are when you attempt your defence, will it work on someone that is fighting back?

Defending when someone has a weapon is VERY difficult, you are going to get hit, even if they've never held a weapon before.  It becomes a question of how hard and where, not if it will happen.


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## Nanalo74 (Dec 12, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Yes, understanding the weapon is very important to learning how to deal with it. Otherwise you end up practicing against straight armed downward stabs ala Jim Carey's In Living Color skit, which, sadly, is pretty much what a lot of people do as their weapons defences....
> 
> I think it is also very important to spar against weapons and learn what the possibilities are when you attempt your defence, will it work on someone that is fighting back?
> 
> Defending when someone has a weapon is VERY difficult, you are going to get hit, even if they've never held a weapon before. It becomes a question of how hard and where, not if it will happen.


 
I LOVE THAT SKIT!! I often use it as an analogy when explaining why we train with the weaponry. I'm with you guys, of course. My instructor, Barry Cuda, often says that if you don't know everything that the weapon can possibly do and every possible way it can come at you, how can you adequately defend against it? 
True, the chances of some crazed Filipino jumping out from an alley and attacking you with a stick and dagger is pretty slim (it would probably follow the lightning strike and the lotto win), but it *is* better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 12, 2005)

I like the idea of haveing some knowledge of what a weapon can do and is not supposed to do.  However if an unskilled, untrained person has it in their hands there is no telling what angle the attack will come from.  Remember the more we practice the more we attack as martial arts people, street attacker do things differently much of the time


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## KenpoTex (Dec 12, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Pretty much every Martial Art has defenses against weapons, such as the blade, stick, and gun. Often when discussing the various disarms, etc., I'll come across two types of people. *One group says that its important to understand how the weapon is used in order to allow you to have a better defense,*
> *while the other group says that the odds of you running into a trained person, someone who knows how to use that weapon to its full extent, is going to be slim to none.
> *


I don't think these statements are contradictory at all.  Yes, I agree that you have to understand the weapon to effectively defend against it. and Yes, I agree that you will rarely if ever run into someone that can use the weapon to it's full potential.  I mean, when was the last time you ran into someone that could use a knife like Kelly Worden or Jim Keating, or someone who could shoot like Rob Leatham or Jerry Miculek.  For that matter, how many of us are that good...I'll admit that I'm not even close.

Basically, I believe that we should never discount the possibility of being attacked by someone that is actually skilled even though we can be thankful that the majority are not.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 13, 2005)

If you train for a trained attacker, you can deal with untrained attackers.  If you train only for untrained attackers, it's unlikely you'll be able to deal with a trained one.  Best to train for the worst case.  Then, anything else should be a (relative) cakewalk.


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## MJS (Dec 13, 2005)

There are some very good points being made here!!  

Often when we see a knife defense, they are static attacks against the overhead, thrust and slash.  My point is, why not take into consideration other grip styles, possible reactions to your defense, etc.

While they may not be Filipino masters, hard core criminals have much time on their hands to train their methods of attack over and over.

Mike


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## arnisador (Dec 13, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> While they may not be Filipino masters, hard core criminals have much time on their hands to train their methods of attack over and over.


 
There's a category of people that falls between (formally) trained and untrained (and inexperienced). A criminal has likely learned some things from descriptions by fellow criminals, things shown to him by those recounting their successful adventures, or things he's watched happen. Is this training? No, but it's knowledge, and will likely help him. A simple "fake here then cut there--I saw it work on a guy in prison once!" can go a long way.

In addition, if he's attacking you, it's almost surely not his first time. That means he's probably got something planned that has worked for him at least once in the past. If you believe some variation of the saying "Every real fight is worth 8 months worth of training" then he has experience that is the equivalent of some type of training.

The attacker may have only one or two tricks up his sleeve, but...one is all it takes for that one encounter.

So, I think that describing street thugs as 'untrained' is often correct in a very formal sense but misleading in a more practical sense. They are narrowly trained; not well-rounded, but if you don't know their few tricks you could well be surprised.

Truly untrained attackers are those who, in a fit of rage, grab a kitchen knife or pool cue and just start swinging. They haven't picked up that object and considered it a weapon before; it's always been just a kitchen knife or pool cue. They're learning on-the-spot how to manipulate it for another purpose. The person mugging you, though, knew he was going to do so and engaged in some level of planning. He's been flipping that knife around all evening and is comfortable with it. He probably hopes he can use it just for intimidation but is prepared to cut if need be. It's quite different.


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## Danny T (Dec 13, 2005)

> I like the idea of having some knowledge of what a weapon can do and is not supposed to do. However if an unskilled, untrained person has it in their hands there is no telling what angle the attack will come from. Remember the more we practice the more we attack as martial arts people, street attacker do things differently much of the time


 I agree that having some knowledge about a weapon is important to be able to defend against it adequately as well as the rarity of coming up against an individual highly trained for fighting without or with weapons. 




> But of course weapons training does more--it enhances body mechanics, it provides a sound basis for using improvised weapons, in convinces a person that defending against some weapons really _is_ a bad idea (which can be life-saving in and of itself).


 This is so true.

It is good to train against highly skilled individuals to assure your proper positioning and timing. How many of you weapons trained actually add in live weapons? I have found the more training done with highly trained people you can get to a point where your training becomes too comfortable. You know exactly how and where the weapon is going or where it will be. The highly trained person is usually quick and smooth which make they appear fast. They usually have far better control so when countering and they re-counter the energy and amt of power is very different than against an un-trained person. I enjoy training with the inexperienced just because they Dont do it right. There movements are very jerky, with odd timing and rhythm. They are stiff and dont move where they are suppose to. 

As to not need to understand how the weapon works. Im certainly not the greatest knifer or weapons guy around however, having had the opportunity over the past 40 years to train with skilled empty hand martial artists who simply freeze or will place themselves in a position against a weapon that if it were an empty hand confrontation they would be ok but against a weapon they are in grave danger. As many stand up artists found out about ground work they simply couldnt function in that environment until they actually did some training in it. I dont need to know the intricacies of a firearm to defend against but having no knowledge of the fact that when the barrel is pointed directly at me and fired I will be seriously injured can be fatal. Having no knowledge or what if feels like to have someone attack at me with a blade or understand how that blade can be manipulated can also be as fatal.

Danny T


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## Nanalo74 (Dec 13, 2005)

Danny T said:
			
		

> It is good to train against highly skilled individuals to assure your proper positioning and timing. How many of you weapons trained actually add in live weapons? I have found the more training done with highly trained people you can get to a point where your training becomes too comfortable. You know exactly how and where the weapon is going or where it will be. The highly trained person is usually quick and smooth which make they appear fast. They usually have far better control so when countering and they re-counter the energy and amt of power is very different than against an &#8220;un-trained person. I enjoy training with the inexperienced just because they &#8220;Don&#8217;t do it right&#8221;. There movements are very jerky, with odd timing and rhythm. They are stiff and don&#8217;t move where they are suppose to.




I agree. I know that when I began to teach I felt myself growing tremendously as a martial artist because your students are not going to come at you with that clean angle. They're going to be awkward and you have to adjust  which for me has made me think about how I would deal with that weird, jerky, awkward movement if I faced it in the street.





			
				Danny T said:
			
		

> As to not need to understand how the weapon works. I&#8217;m certainly not the greatest knifer or weapons guy around however, having had the opportunity over the past 40 years to train with skilled empty hand martial artists who simply freeze or will place themselves in a position against a weapon that if it were an empty hand confrontation they would be ok but against a weapon they are in grave danger. As many stand up artists found out about ground work they simply couldn&#8217;t function in that environment until they actually did some training in it. I don&#8217;t need to know the intricacies of a firearm to defend against but having no knowledge of the fact that when the barrel is pointed directly at me and fired I will be seriously injured can be fatal. Having no knowledge or what if feels like to have someone attack at me with a blade or understand how that blade can be manipulated can also be as fatal.




Absolutely! You hit the nail on the head. I'm with you, brother!

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 13, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Pretty much every Martial Art has defenses against weapons, such as the blade, stick, and gun. Often when discussing the various disarms, etc., I'll come across two types of people. One group says that its important to understand how the weapon is used in order to allow you to have a better defense, while the other group says that the odds of you running into a trained person, someone who knows how to use that weapon to its full extent, is going to be slim to none.
> 
> I fall into the first group. After spending quite a bit of time in the FMA's, I've come to have a much better understanding of both the blade and the stick. Granted, we may not face that highly trained attacker on the street, but I'd think that it'd be good to be as prepared as possible. Better to have the skill and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
> 
> ...



I am of the first group.

I understand as others stated why there is a second group, and that it does not have to be mutually exclusive. 

Yet to only train for the untrained, is bad, while only training for the experts can be bad, for the untrained will do things that will surprise you.


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## arnisador (Dec 13, 2005)

Nanalo74 said:
			
		

> I agree. I know that when I began to teach I felt myself growing tremendously as a martial artist because your students are not going to come at you with that clean angle. They're going to be awkward and you have to adjust http://www.combatartsusa.com



Yes, beginners are great for this. Experts always do the 'right' thing, but beginners can make you think!


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## MJS (Dec 13, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I am of the first group.
> 
> I understand as others stated why there is a second group, and that it does not have to be mutually exclusive.
> 
> Yet to only train for the untrained, is bad, while only training for the experts can be bad, for the untrained will do things that will surprise you.


 
It just amazes me as to how people can think that the only way that they'll be attacked is in that static fashion and that the techs. or their defense does not need to be changed.

Mike


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## CuongNhuka (Dec 19, 2005)

Mmm look at it this way. When you first sparred did you do everything right. No. Why? Because you probably hadnt figured out what right was. With knife defense, same thing. Until you do it in some-form of free-style, you dont really know what right is. A good way to learn to defend against something is to first know easy, and common ways of attacking are. So if youre just learning to defend against a hand strike, but dont know how to punch, youre not in a good place. There are fourteen basic strikes with the knife. Left shoulder to right hip and back up. Right shoulder to left hip and back up. Across the hips and neck. Straight up and down. Go onto one knee and cut across the knees. Standing thrust to the solar plexus/ belly/ heart. And stab to the back. Same thing with reverse. Will a street thug know these? Yes and no.
Yes. In what sense? Stabbing to those spots is common and slashing is the same. The straight strikes and knee cuts are less so. While the technical  correctness of their attacks is less then amazing, they know what they are doing in a sense. Many of you have posted in this and other threads comments that go to what Im saying. Or have influenced my oppoin and statement. 
Both groups are right and wrong. You should have a good idea of how to use a weapon to be at least a little capable of defending against it. Guns are an obvious exception to this. But in a street fight, youre not likely to come across someone who knows the right way of wielding against a weapon. My thoughts on (off topic, but I feel it is necessary to say) street defense. If youre are going to enroll in a class to learn to defend yourself, or start one, you need at least the following:
· Training in strikes with your eight limbs (hands, feet, elbows, and knees)
· Training in grappling
· Training in how to stand, move, and hold your hands (stance and guard)
· Training in defense against common weapons wielded by street thugs (knifes, guns, pipes, bats, and a few others that depend on time and location)
· Using the above weapons (if you get a bat out the bad guys hand what are you going to do, stand there and look pretty? No, youre going smash his/her face in if they or one of his/her buddies makes a move you dont like)
· Usage of the yawara (a nasty little thing that is a pen or pencil in application)
· Defense against mutable opponents.
· Free-style (so you know how to react, if you have to. And in ways that train what you know)
· Talking your way out of a bad place, and being able to run far and fast.
· Knowing when to run, when to talk, when to hold, when to strike, when to hurt, when to pull a weapon, when to use a weapon, when to main, and when to (most grimly) kill.
Another good thing to train is basic anatomy and its application in a fight. Like o.k. This is the brachial plexus, this is what happens when you hit it. But remember. What you dont practice, you might as well have never learned.

O.K. Im done now, Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John


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## arnisador (Dec 19, 2005)

Indeed, free-sparring is important. (Use eye protection!) It's much harder than it looks.

It's worth bearing in mind that most street weapons are not knives as we think of them but box cutters (little stabbing ability, hard to disarm unless you use a lock like kotegaeshi that really opens up the hand), sharpened screwdrivers (stabbing weapons that you can do a forearm strip on very safely), or some such. A friend who is an LEO was asked how many times, in the past few years, he had taken a knife off of someone being arrested, and he answered that he had taken two knives--both from the same suspect. How many box cutters, he was asked; the answer, maybe 40 (I don't recall exactly what number he gave). Similarly for shanks, like the sharpened screwdriver--about 40, say.

So, the actual weapon one faces may make some defenses easier or harder.


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## CuongNhuka (Dec 19, 2005)

Thats part of my point Arni. You should work mostly with the ideal (if you can call a fight ideal), and work with shanks, and other weapons you could come across. Just to be careful. And I recall hearing about a style from some were in south/south-east Asia (Burma or India, I think) that trains you to fight against someone with a weapon before someone without.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John


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## arnisador (Dec 19, 2005)

That's not too uncommon in Filipino/Indonesian/etc. arts, so I'm not surprised to hear it!


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## CuongNhuka (Dec 19, 2005)

Hold on I have it written down some were, let me look (I'm a dork I know). It's called Binot, still not shure were it is from, but from what I remember it's a hard style.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 20, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Indeed, free-sparring is important. (Use eye protection!) It's much harder than it looks.
> 
> It's worth bearing in mind that most street weapons are not knives as we think of them but box cutters (little stabbing ability, hard to disarm unless you use a lock like kotegaeshi that really opens up the hand), sharpened screwdrivers (stabbing weapons that you can do a forearm strip on very safely), or some such. A friend who is an LEO was asked how many times, in the past few years, he had taken a knife off of someone being arrested, and he answered that he had taken two knives--both from the same suspect. How many box cutters, he was asked; the answer, maybe 40 (I don't recall exactly what number he gave). Similarly for shanks, like the sharpened screwdriver--about 40, say.
> 
> So, the actual weapon one faces may make some defenses easier or harder.


 Actually, it's ironic.  Every person I arrest, with FEW exceptions, is carrying at least one folding blade pocket clip knife.  This is the rule, rather than the exception.  It may be cultural...i'm in Missouri, but everyone has a folding blade clip knife.


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## arnisador (Dec 20, 2005)

This was on the East Coast (NJ? Penn.? Del.?). But, I do think it's geographic. In some agricultural and working-class areas, such as where I live in Indiana, many people carry a 'work knife' (with 'work' broadly contrued here) as a matter of course. Where I grew up in NY and where I have lived in Calif., it was very uncommon to do so.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 21, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> This was on the East Coast (NJ? Penn.? Del.?). But, I do think it's geographic. In some agricultural and working-class areas, such as where I live in Indiana, many people carry a 'work knife' (with 'work' broadly contrued here) as a matter of course. Where I grew up in NY and where I have lived in Calif., it was very uncommon to do so.


 Yeah, I agree.  I would not think it would be a normal sight to see someone carrying a pocket clip folder in Manhattan, though i'm sure it is done (that is, if it isn't illegal).


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