# What is the problem with Kukkiwon?



## NPTKD (May 20, 2009)

Have you ever wondered why people complain about the kukkiwon.... Poeple all ***** about the price and the paper work and how you don't need it and how its a rip off. But God forbid you don't have one... Then your not a true TKD practitononer, could someone help me with this?


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## troubleenuf (May 21, 2009)

At one time the Kukkiwon certificates were hard to come by ....  That has changed in the past 30 years however.  Now if you have the right connections and enough money you can get a certificate pretty easily.  In the US many do not use the Kukkiwon anymore as you get very little for it but a piece of paper.


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## ATC (May 21, 2009)

People mix up KKW and USAT or WTF. They do not understand that KKW only issues you your DAN certs, not much more if anything else.


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## terryl965 (May 21, 2009)

There is no problem with the KKW just the way it is runned. You see they issue world wide rank for TKD and they never ever see the candidate that are applying for the rank. Now lets see if we was going to be a Doctor or Lawyer one need to be seen sometimes, I know we are talking rank not a job but all in all the same principle. I have been a KKW guy over twenty five years so I can value in something but that value like alot of things have gone south in some ways. I mean everything cannot be the same and should not but they seem to be going the wrong direction alot of the time. The USAT and the WTF hold a different perspective for me the WTF governs the rules for the sport side and the USAT is the only game in town for the Olympic athlete hopes. I do not haave major problems with them but still they each have been known to fabricate things for the betterment of them solely.


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## Earl Weiss (May 21, 2009)

I think part of the issue is abuses by instructors and not the orgs. Students think they are pauying an outrageous fee to the KKW and their is a lengthy delay, and never learn what the true charges are so they don't realize their instructor is marking up the fee and possibly causing the paperwork delay as well. This problem is not unique to the KKW instructors adn I do not mean to imply that all KKW instructors do this.


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## Twin Fist (May 21, 2009)

there are good KKW guys, like terry, or GM Kurban, etc so in that respect, i dont have a problem with it beyond the fact that it costs too much.

the problem with it in my mind is that the KKW is tied to the WTF, which is crap, teaches crap karate, and cant even do that right.


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## NPTKD (May 21, 2009)

Could you tell me what is American Taekwondo? Is it Jhoon Rhee style... Mile High karate.... and is that you doing that crane form?


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## NPTKD (May 21, 2009)

and for that matter I didn't know that the WTF was in the business of teaching anyone.... I though that (know) there are only on the sport side of it.


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## Miles (May 21, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> Have you ever wondered why people complain about the kukkiwon.... Poeple all ***** about the price and the paper work and how you don't need it and how its a rip off. But God forbid you don't have one... Then your not a true TKD practitononer, could someone help me with this?


 
Some people just like to complain...gives them something to do because they are not training enough.

There is no problem with the Kukkiwon. It efficiently and effectively issues dan certification (last one I processed took 2 weeks or so).  It efficiently and effectively conducts instructor training courses, publishes written and video materials, all for the betterment of Taekwondoin everywhere.

You can be a true Taekwondoin without Kukkiwon certification.  But, if you are interested in the Kukkiwon ideal of uniformity and standardization of technique/terminology/training methodology, I suggest you become Kukkiwon-certified.

Keep training!

Miles


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## Manny (May 21, 2009)

I have no KUKIWON certification and don't feel bad about that, I'm just a 1th degee Black Belt under Jido Kwan and have my Jido Kwan Black Belt certification and nothing else.

Back in 1988 I pay for a KUKIWON certification and it never arrived, I lose my money period.

This days I'm more interested in learn that having KUKIWON diplomas.

Manny


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## NPTKD (May 21, 2009)

I really am interested ( not disrespectful) about American TKD?


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## dancingalone (May 21, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> I really am interested ( not disrespectful) about American TKD?



I recall that TF and I got our TKD black belts in the same system, if that could be said given how eclectic American (er, Texas) Tae Kwon Do can be.

Essentially, Jhoon Rhee arrived in Texas and began teaching his understanding of Korean karate from Chung Do Kwan roots.  He originally used the Japanese forms like Bassai and Pinan (Pyung Ahn) but converted over to Choi's Chang Hon forms.  Eventually Rhee left for Maryland, but his mark on martial arts had already been made in Texas as his students continued to teach a snapshot of what he taught at the time while adding their own additions.  Obviously no sine wave movement as that's not the way Rhee taught forms.

The Tae Kwon Do I learned adds a bit of Western boxing with a high guard employed.  Hooks and uppercuts are taught early on.  The typical self-defense and one step sparring drills are present with extensive free sparring, generally with a decent level of contact.  It's regarded as a practical style with plenty of opportunities for cross-breeding.  If it works, use it is a familar saying.


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## ATC (May 21, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> there are good KKW guys, like terry, or GM Kurban, etc so in that respect, i dont have a problem with it beyond the fact that it costs too much.
> 
> the problem with it in my mind is that the KKW is tied to the WTF, which is crap, teaches crap karate, and cant even do that right.


WTF has nothing to do with the teaching of anything. The WTF only dictates the rules to the Olympic sport of TKD. Your school and your school only is responsible for the teaching of TKD.

This is the problem to many think this way. KKW also is not expensive either. The cost is only $70 per each time you test for a new DAN. If that is a cost problem then you must be learning at your dojang for free.


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## NPTKD (May 21, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> there are good KKW guys, like terry, or GM Kurban, etc so in that respect, i dont have a problem with it beyond the fact that it costs too much.
> 
> the problem with it in my mind is that the KKW is tied to the WTF, which is crap, teaches crap karate, and cant even do that right.


 
Isn't The Mile High Franchize one of these" American TKD system". So lets compair apples to apples.


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## Twin Fist (May 21, 2009)

this:



dancingalone said:


> I recall that TF and I got our TKD black belts in the same system, if that could be said given how eclectic American (er, Texas) Tae Kwon Do can be.
> 
> Essentially, Jhoon Rhee arrived in Texas and began teaching his understanding of Korean karate from Chung Do Kwan roots.  He originally used the Japanese forms like Bassai and Pinan (Pyung Ahn) but converted over to Choi's Chang Hon forms.  Eventually Rhee left for Maryland, but his mark on martial arts had already been made in Texas as his students continued to teach a snapshot of what he taught at the time while adding their own additions.  Obviously no sine wave movement as that's not the way Rhee taught forms.
> 
> The Tae Kwon Do I learned adds a bit of Western boxing with a high guard employed.  Hooks and uppercuts are taught early on.  The typical self-defense and one step sparring drills are present with extensive free sparring, generally with a decent level of contact.  It's regarded as a practical style with plenty of opportunities for cross-breeding.  If it works, use it is a familar saying.




yep, thats it, American TKD in the texas sense of the word is the original TKD, before the koreans started getting all uppity and re-writting history.

it's HARD, self defense oriented, and we FIGHT.


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## just2kicku (May 21, 2009)

I don't know what all these orginizations are, but my youngest brother is a TKD BB, and when he does his forms and SD techniques, it's a real hard style. I would swear it was shotokan with the low stances and hard blocks.  

I was also watching video when Ed Parker took his fighting team around the world to different tourneys, there was this guy John Natividad who was TKD and he fought nothing like I've seen TKD fighters do today. What org. was he from?  

It was before they implemented safety equipment for sparring.


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## Twin Fist (May 21, 2009)

John Natavidad was one of Chuck Norris's BB's

it was Tang Soo Do


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## jim777 (May 21, 2009)

I have GM Rhee's books on the Chang H'on forms on my nightstand LOL


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## just2kicku (May 21, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> John Natavidad was one of Chuck Norris's BB's
> 
> it was Tang Soo Do



Thank you for the clarification


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## Twin Fist (May 21, 2009)

interesting bit of trivia Joe.

Natavidad fought an EPIC fight with benny the jet at the internationals in like 69, ended in overtime 12-13

that was in the days of 1 point scoring.

even more interesting trivia, benny urquidez got his BB from Bill Ryusaki. And wanna guess who Ryusaki got his from?

John Leonning from kajukenbo.


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## ATC (May 21, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> interesting bit of trivia Joe.
> 
> Natavidad fought an EPIC fight with benny the jet at the internationals in like 69, ended in overtime 12-13
> 
> ...


Here is nice little expose 



 on Sir Benny "THE JET" Urquidez. I grew up in this era and he and a few others were people I looked up to.


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## just2kicku (May 21, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> interesting bit of trivia Joe.
> 
> Natavidad fought an EPIC fight with benny the jet at the internationals in like 69, ended in overtime 12-13
> 
> ...


 

Ahhh....how did I know that? One of my instructors, Carlos Bunda is one of Johnnys' BB, his younger brother Doug Bunda whom I train under was also a student of Johnnys'. Carlos made him watch classes for months before he let him join. GM Doug also received a BB from James Ibrao.

Carlos was also Rick Kingis' instructor and promoted him to BB.

Haha...did you know that?   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Did you also know that my dad in .... I think it '67 was the first one up against Chuck Norris and got DQ'ed for busting him up. Then Carlos beat Chuck and broke his cup in the process. That's when Chuck went and trained with his hands.


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## terryl965 (May 21, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> Ahhh....how did I know that? One of my instructors, Carlos Bunda is one of Johnnys' BB, his younger brother Doug Bunda whom I train under was also a student of Johnnys'. Carlos made him watch classes for months before he let him join. GM Doug also received a BB from James Ibrao.
> 
> Carlos was also Rick Kingis' instructor and promoted him to BB.
> 
> ...


 
Yes I  knew that well not about your father but the other.


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## Twin Fist (May 21, 2009)

I knew Rick Kingi was one of the Bundas BB's

I didnt know your dad smacked Norris around...good stuff.

Funny thing is, with all the back issues of Black Belt available for reading now, looking back at the tourny results from the 60's, seeing a LOT of famous names from Kaju listed as BOTH fighters and winners in FORMS. 

thats something that you just dont see these days.

Same thing with Chuck Norris, no one remembers him as a forms guy, but he almost always did forms too, and won a LOT.


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## NPTKD (May 22, 2009)

No answer on the mile high or crane form... And isn't Jhoon Rhee Korean?


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## miguksaram (May 22, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> ...BOTH fighters and winners in FORMS.
> thats something that you just dont see these days.


 
Depends on where you look.  If you are talking about sport karate tournaments, where Chuck and them came from, then you can see plenty of them.  Ross Levine, Jarret Leikert, Craig Henningsen, Donald Mills, Jason Tankson-Bourley, Arlene Limas, Sammy Vazquez, Chris Brewster, Matt Mullins, Chris Huberts....I can go on and on.  What happens after awhile is they begin to choose what the enjoy most and focus on that.


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## AmericanTangSooDo (Mar 16, 2010)

just2kicku said:


> I don't know what all these orginizations are, but my youngest brother is a TKD BB, and when he does his forms and SD techniques, it's a real hard style. I would swear it was shotokan with the low stances and hard blocks.
> 
> I was also watching video when Ed Parker took his fighting team around the world to different tourneys, there was this guy John Natividad who was TKD and he fought nothing like I've seen TKD fighters do today. What org. was he from?
> 
> It was before they implemented safety equipment for sparring.



John Natividad was never a TKD stylist, he's a Tang Soo Do practitioner. He received his black belt under Chuck Norris and was a member of his legendary fighting team back in the early 1970s.

By the way another member of that five person team that Ed Parker took around the world was Darnell Garcia, another Norris black belt.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 17, 2010)

NPTKD said:


> Have you ever wondered why people complain about the kukkiwon.... Poeple all ***** about the price and the paper work and how you don't need it and how its a rip off. But God forbid you don't have one... Then your not a true TKD practitononer, could someone help me with this?


No disrespect intended, but is there a point to this?  

We have more threads on the subject of the Kukkiwon's woes than I care to enumerate and posts along these lines (complaining about why people complain about fill-in-the-blank org) tend to just bring out more those very complaints, some of which are legitimate, others of which are just griping for the sake of griping.

Also, regarding your observation about people who say that you are not a 'true' TKD practitioner without a KKW cert, these are generally not the ones complaining vociferously about the Kukkiwon.

Lastly, no, the WTF itself does not teach anything, as you stated.  Kukkiwon schools that practice WTF sparring (pretty much all of them), however do teach sparring under the WTF rule set, which is what Twin Fist refers to as the WTF teaching 'crap karate' in both this and other threads.  While his statement may not have been technically accurate (the WTF is not a teaching body), the Kukkiwon schools are affiliated with it and do teach that style of sparring predominantly.  Not to mention that the WTF only recognizes KKW ranks.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Mar 17, 2010)

NPTKD it is simple those that don't want and those that do relize it is really nothing more than a piece of paper. It is the nature of the beast to complain about anything and everything.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 17, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> There is no problem with the KKW just the way  it is runned.


Not to be a nitpicker, but the way an organization is run essentially defines it.



terryl965 said:


> *You see they issue world wide rank for TKD and they never  ever see the candidate that are applying for the rank.* Now lets see if  we was going to be a Doctor or Lawyer one need to be seen sometimes, I  know we are talking rank not a job but all in all the same principle. I  have been a KKW guy over twenty five years so I can value in something  but that value like alot of things have gone south in some ways. I mean  everything cannot be the same and should not but they seem to be going  the wrong direction alot of the time. The USAT and the WTF hold a  different perspective for me the WTF governs the rules for the sport  side and the USAT is the only game in town for the Olympic athlete  hopes. I do not haave major problems with them but still they each have  been known to fabricate things for the betterment of them  solely.


Well, as you said in your last post, the Kukkiwon is just a certification entity.  They establish a curriculum of sorts and their agents (4th dan and higher KKW school owners) sign off on the quality of the testee.  Since the school owners are essentially the Kukkiwon's testing agents, I do believe that it is not entirely accurate to say that the Kukkiwon never sees the candidate applying for rank.

The only real issue that I have with this is that it opens the door for potential (and actual) abuse on the part of school owners.  On the other hand, accusations that the Kukkiwon is too controlling or too hands on are pretty much baseless as a result of this structure.  I think that most people who make that accusation are not and likely have never been Kukkiwon members and are surmising.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Mar 17, 2010)

Daniel I will try and not open a whole can of worms here but lets just say this the KKW is a meer image of what it was suppose to be when the early founder envision it. The fact is I have seen the abuse first hand over the year people not getting there certificates or certain Masters charging an arm and a leg. Iknow this is not the KKW doing it but it is the people that hold that 4th Dan or higher so in essense they are totally responsible for there BB and what they do.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 17, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Daniel I will try and not open a whole can of worms here but lets just say this the KKW is a mere image of what it was suppose to be when the early founder envision it.


No can of worms opened in my opinion.  I think even the most ardent supporters of the Kukkiwon are aware of this.  The major issue seems to be corruption and abuse.  The sports direction is, well, it is what it is.  Either you like it or you do not.  Frankly, I do not, but the KKW does not require its member schools to 'go olympic' so no harm no foul there.



terryl965 said:


> The fact is I have seen the abuse first hand over the year people not getting there certificates or certain Masters charging an arm and a leg. I know this is not the KKW doing it but it is the people that hold that 4th Dan or higher so in essence they are totally responsible for there BB and what they do.


Absolutely.  This is, unfortunately, a large part of the corruption issue that I mentioned above.  The (geographically) Korean organization is not hands on enough in my opinion, and could curtail this nonsense if those at the main offices chose to take a stronger stance.  

Daniel


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## d1jinx (Mar 17, 2010)

you guys dug up a year old post....

its dead.... let it go.


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## terryl965 (Mar 17, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> you guys dug up a year old post....
> 
> its dead.... let it go.


 

The KKW is dead WOW maybe I forgot to read that.....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 17, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> you guys dug up a year old post....
> 
> its dead.... let it go.


Looks like American TSD did the digging, lol.  Didn't see the date on the OP.  Looks like I missed this one the first time around.

Haven't seen T/F on in days, so here I thought he was posting again.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 17, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> *No disrespect intended, but is there a point to this?
> *
> *We have more threads on the subject of the Kukkiwon's woes than I care to enumerate and posts along these lines (complaining about why people complain about fill-in-the-blank org) tend to just bring out more those very complaints, some of which are legitimate, others of which are just griping for the sake of griping.*
> 
> ...


NPTKD,

It was too late to edit, but I did not realize that this was a necro-ed thread.  Please disregard my question and comments about whether or not there is a point to this thread, as at the time when you posted it, KKW critique was going pretty strong.  Once I realized that it was an old thread (Thanks to Djinx), the point made sense.

My bad.

Daniel


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## Miles (Mar 17, 2010)

Was NPTKD banned?  Haven't seen him post in a long time....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 17, 2010)

Good question.  TF seems to have dropped off lately as well.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Mar 17, 2010)

Miles said:


> Was NPTKD banned?  Haven't seen him post in a long time....



Yep.  I even saw that he had re-registered a few times under different names and Bob banned them all.


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## MSUTKD (Mar 17, 2010)

NPTKD is a good guy and speaks his mind.  Actually I like him and miss his opinions. (HINT, HINT)


p.s.  He can actually throw a high side kick too!  More than some.


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## MSUTKD (Mar 17, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Good question. TF seems to have dropped off lately as well.
> 
> Daniel


 
And so has the hypocrisy....


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## dancingalone (Mar 17, 2010)

MSUTKD said:


> NPTKD is a good guy and speaks his mind.  Actually I like him and miss his opinions. (HINT, HINT)
> 
> p.s.  He can actually throw a high side kick too!  More than some.



You know, Ron, you can stop with the digs towards Twin Fist.  I doubt he's checking this thread.  Just stop it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 17, 2010)

I am sure that we all have our obtuse moments on MT, myself definitely included.

Daniel


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## d1jinx (Mar 17, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> The KKW is dead WOW maybe I forgot to read that.....


 

Silly Rabbit.....


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## d1jinx (Mar 17, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> NPTKD,
> 
> It was too late to edit, but I did not realize that this was a necro-ed thread. Please disregard my question and comments about whether or not there is a point to this thread, as at the time when you posted it, KKW critique was going pretty strong. Once I realized that it was an old thread (Thanks to Djinx), the point made sense.
> 
> ...


 

Yeah, I found myself thinking it was new and then i realized the date.  And NPTKD was banned so I thought for a second that maybe they allowed him back.  

I liked him too.


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## terryl965 (Mar 17, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> Silly Rabbit.....


 
Tricks are for kids...


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## Miles (Mar 18, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Tricks are for kids...


 

Anyone under 30 get Terry's quote/joke?  

FWIW, I miss NPTKD too.


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## Archtkd (Mar 18, 2010)

Miles said:


> Anyone under 30 get Terry's quote/joke?
> 
> FWIW, I miss NPTKD too.


 
Older than 30 but I didn't get it.  I plead cultural ignorance. Also, for historical knowledge, context, and just plain thirst for old juicy gossip: How far do tensions between TF and Master Southwick go? Have blows ever been exchanged?


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## terryl965 (Mar 18, 2010)

Miles said:


> Anyone under 30 get Terry's quote/joke?
> 
> FWIW, I miss NPTKD too.


 

For those of you that did not understand the humor here it is, Tricks is a brand of cereal that has a Rabbit always trying to get them, the reference was to d1jinx comment about {silly Rabbit} which the kids would say so I finished it with the rest of the phase ( Silly Rabbit tricks are for kids) I hope this explains everything.


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## MSUTKD (Mar 18, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> Older than 30 but I didn't get it. I plead cultural ignorance. Also, for historical knowledge, context, and just plain thirst for old juicy gossip: How far do tensions between TF and Master Southwick go? Have blows ever been exchanged?


 

I would not waste my time.  There is no conflict between us; I just call BS when I hear it.


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## d1jinx (Mar 18, 2010)




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## terryl965 (Mar 18, 2010)

d1jinx said:


>


 

Thanks I believe the picture is better than me explaining.


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## Archtkd (Mar 18, 2010)

MSUTKD said:


> I would not waste my time. There is no conflict between us; I just call BS when I hear it.


 
Lighten up folks. MSUTKD, I was kidding about this, but sorry if it didn't come out that way.


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## d1jinx (Mar 18, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Thanks I believe the picture is better than me explaining.


 
Pictures are easy.... aint technology grand!  google, copy paste... ahhh the good life.

And Do They still make that ?  not sure... havent eaten cereal in years.  actually I try to avoid the grocery store so It wouldnt matter if I ate cereal or not..


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