# Misguided Minds...



## Genin Andrew (Jun 29, 2004)

OK,just curious whether you guys have any stories to share about the reactions you have got when you tell people your a martial artist(of any kind) and the things they ask you.I know alot of people who study ninjutsu ussually just say they do "budo taijutsu" or simply taijutsu to save themselves from a long and tedious explanation.When i'm around people who i know have very little knowledge in martial arts I try hard not to use the word ninja at all,and i'm sure alot of you have the same approach!

However this afternoon i was with my friend and was leaving to go to the dojo and some guy who was close heard me say the word 'ninja' and instantly engaged himself in a conversation with me,quite a one sided conversation.He said "ha are you a ninja?" and i replied with "no"i do karate(which i did for 4 years before starting ninjukai taijutsu(say what u want about the art dont turn this into a political thread)i used karate for easy conversation reasons.he then went on with...

"haha why do you do that,i thought most people grew out of that in grade 7" trying hard not to laugh i made a comment about his maturity level and with that he then taunted me and took the usual unneducated approach and said things like

"show me a chop man!,jump in the air and kick or something!" when he realised i was ignoring him he said
"why dont you people never show what you can do,you never do it when asked" he said that with a tone of sarcasm as to mock me.

i continued to walk to the dojo and he was quiet,but i was left with a feeling of annoyance,this guy was not drunk at all,he was a full grown man,and he was just so immature and lame...i dont ussually let little comments like that get to me but i found it disturbing.I just humoured myself thinking about what would have happened to that man if he were in 16th century Japan and treated a Samurai as he treated me


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## Don Roley (Jun 29, 2004)

What kind of pyscological issues are you carrying around to let this type of thing happen and effect you so much? You would not take this guy on in a direct debate, but feel safe talking about it here behind his back among people you think will be sympathetic. Maybe you should be thinking about the problems in yourself rather than the ravings of just another jerk.


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## Enson (Jun 29, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> What kind of pyscological issues are you carrying around to let this type of thing happen and effect you so much? You would not take this guy on in a direct debate, but feel safe talking about it here behind his back among people you think will be sympathetic. Maybe you should be thinking about the problems in yourself rather than the ravings of just another jerk.


ah don't let it get you down. there are all kinds of stupid people around. i know it gets frusturating when a person gets stupid. it could have been about anything that, that person wanted to argue about. as the great norm used to say... (from the show "cheers") "will it change the price of beer? then what do we care?" don't let what stupid people say to you get you down. don is always saying that the newbies need help and how much he cares so i'm sure his comment was a word of encouragement. :asian: right don? hee hee! well you should never be ashamed of what you study. just straight up tell them ninjitsu. who cares? hope you aren't embarresed.
peace


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## Genin Andrew (Jun 29, 2004)

haha thanks don,much appreciated. I am very much at peace with myself and what i do.I was just interested in your opinions and own experiances.This hadnt got me down in the least,i would never let something so small affect me,it was just an experiance that i wished to share and see how it compared to your own.But thankyou Don for your very deep and meaningful advice...

regards
-andrew


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## Shogun (Jun 29, 2004)

I never use the term Ninja, because:
A-I am not a Ninja. 

B-The one time I joked around about being a Ninja, I was in a comic book store. big mistake! this 26 year old fat Irish girl said I could be a Ninja because the were all 90 lbs so they could fly giant kites. (the recommended weight was closer to 132 according to Stephen Turbull) They also could be as white as me (I am 1/2 Native american, thank you very much), and how her Grandma was a ninja, and tells her stories of her Kunoichi days. When talking about martial arts to people, I simply explain the arts History, background, rank system, original purpose, techniques,etc. they become bored right around, "well, the system was developed during....." and leave me alone.


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## hedgehogey (Jun 29, 2004)

*I* am that person. I didn't personally make fun of  andrew...but I tend to be the shadow (in the jungian sense) that martial artists fear. And I *do* make fun of martial artists when I see them.

It's obvious most MAists fear and despise the common man. This elitist, secretive attitude only leads to insularity and stagnation. So I think andrew should try to figure out what he was doing that made him a target for mockery, instead of increasing the distance he puts between his deadly ninja persona and the rest of humanity.


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## Shogun (Jun 29, 2004)

> said I could be a Ninja


 
This was supposed to be could'nt.

Most martial artists (the ones that I know) will try to clarify the MA. If a "common" man doesnt have the patience, then ....there is nothing to be done really.


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## Don Roley (Jun 30, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> It's obvious most MAists fear and despise the common man. This elitist, secretive attitude only leads to insularity and stagnation. So I think andrew should try to figure out what he was doing that made him a target for mockery, instead of increasing the distance he puts between his deadly ninja persona and the rest of humanity.



That might be a bit harsh.

But the point is, why should you tell anyone that you study martial arts, let alone "ninjutsu."?

Using myself as an example, I can count the number of people around me who know I do martial arts on one hand. As far as I am concerned, it is none of their business and I do not like to be put into little boxes. I do not say a lot about myself in general, and almost nothing in regards to things that may make them think that I am anything other than plain vanilla.

There is another, deeper, meaning to the idea of invisibility. Charles Daniel wrote a good piece on it and I think it is on line somewhere.

But I have run across people who need to let people know they practice martial arts. I have also run across people who need to let people know they are NRA members, etc. I am convinced there is something that drives them to make people respect them as a person who can do violence. I can almost understand it. I think I probably had it when I was younger myself. At the time, I would not have admitted it, but now I look back at my early years as a new member of the military and wonder why I had to let people know that I was an infantryman rather than just another guy.

Introspection is sometimes the first step towards wisdom. But we have to be able to face the demons inside us and not try to explain them away.

Again, why should we let the world know that we are martial artists? If they do not have any relation to the subject, it just is not a factor. I am more willing to talk about my kids than my martial art background. (Heck- I have not been to class in a month due to a nasty c-section for my son this month.) If we are well rounded individuals, we should have no problem talking about things that others can relate to and not something that they have no common interest in.


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## Genin Andrew (Jun 30, 2004)

wow,i think this time i agree with you alot Don,i'm not kissing a** or anything but i respect you for what you said in that last post,i'm not quite sure how to respond to it but there was alot of truth in that post and i will openly say that i very much agree.When i studied Karate when i was younger i used to tell all my friends and also had alot of friends that did the same,it was almost like the perfect conversation starter.But now apart from family and close friends its not an issue and i dont bring it up much,as someone mentioned before most of my friends dont have a real interest anyway.

"But now I look back at my early years as a new member of the military and wonder why I had to let people know that I was an infantryman rather than just another guy."

I'm not currently in the military but have always wanted to join the army and still plan on it when i finish this last year of school.I used to do Army Cadets which gave me a brief insight into the military world,i'm not sure whether you would agree Don but some see the Military as almost another world,you can look at it from a certain angle and it looks completely different to the civilian lifestyle,Its almost like civilians and military personal are two separate classes.The way they live,their experiances and the way they think.

To say that you are in the army says alot more than just that,people see all the things they "assume" you represent and the things they "assume" you do and i guess thanks to history and hollywood alot of respect comes with your title as a member of the Military(whatever country you represent).I guess for some people MA is very similiar,its a different way of life to what alot of people know and the need to let people know(especcially at a young age) is something some people feel they can do to gain respect and recognition.

People always ask 'why' i want to join the army,sometimes the same question is asked in regard to MA...At times it can be hard finding an answer...

Don if you find that piece By Charles Daniel i would be interested to read it.

i wont even comment on the remark made about me and "my deadly ninja persona" LMAO and the way "I" see humanity...

-much respect


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## Enson (Jun 30, 2004)

its funny how some people (not all people) will actually avoid conflict with you if they know you study ma. i'm not saying what don said is wrong i'm just saying that some are afraid of ma practicioners. i wouldn't go around boasting that i study ma (although my t shirts state it for me hee hee! ((joke)). the fact is there is always someone bigger and better. or smaller and better. just steer clear of all altercations unless you think you can beat everyone. "rule a numba one, karate foe self defense only". hee hee! (i'm a movie fanatic)

peace


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## Jay Bell (Jun 30, 2004)

I'd agree with that...to an extent.  As an adult, if people hear through the grapevine that I study, there's a line that they won't cross when screwing around   On the other hand, growing up in a small town, guys would find out you trained...and it was the same as having a "HIT ME" stamp on your forehead..


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## Enson (Jun 30, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> I'd agree with that...to an extent. As an adult, if people hear through the grapevine that I study, there's a line that they won't cross when screwing around  On the other hand, growing up in a small town, guys would find out you trained...and it was the same as having a "HIT ME" stamp on your forehead..


lol! and another sign on your back! hee hee!


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## DuckofDeath (Jul 1, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> *I* am that person. I didn't personally make fun of  andrew...but I tend to be the shadow (in the jungian sense) that martial artists fear. And I *do* make fun of martial artists when I see them.



Do you also lurk in bookstores and whisper things about the _burakumin_ into the ears of the unsuspecting?


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## Elizium (Jul 1, 2004)

I think you did very well.  You walked away from an arguement that may have turned nasty and left the guy with the other option oftalking to himself.

Basically you took away his ammo for the arguement.  One of my friends said to me about when the wife is giving grief to your actions: "Best walk away and leave them there for a few hours, for it is hard to argue when there is no one there.".

The guy wanted something, you just walked off and left him there looking like a moron from the planet Uranus.  Give yourself a beer. :ultracool


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## Kreth (Jul 1, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> *I* am that person. I didn't personally make fun of  andrew...but I tend to be the shadow (in the jungian sense) that martial artists fear. And I *do* make fun of martial artists when I see them.


*Snort* You might want to ease up on the Matrix marathons, champ...

Jeff


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## Flatlander (Jul 1, 2004)

Elizium said:
			
		

> I think you did very well. You walked away from an arguement that may have turned nasty and left the guy with the other option oftalking to himself.
> 
> Basically you took away his ammo for the arguement. One of my friends said to me about when the wife is giving grief to your actions: "Best walk away and leave them there for a few hours, for it is hard to argue when there is no one there.".
> 
> The guy wanted something, you just walked off and left him there looking like a moron from the planet Uranus. Give yourself a beer. :ultracool


Actually, I'll give him a beer.  

*flatlander gives Genin Andrew a beer

Here, everyone help yourself.

*gives everyone a beer


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## Enson (Jul 1, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Actually, I'll give him a beer.
> 
> *flatlander gives Genin Andrew a beer
> 
> ...


i'll pass i don't drink, but thanks anyway. hee hee!


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## Genin Andrew (Jul 1, 2004)

i dont ussually drink,but hey the beers are greatly appreciated.
cheers 
Guess that just means more for you guys.


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## Han-Mi (Jul 1, 2004)

ahhh.... Ignorance. something that everyone has to deal with one time or another. except the most ignorant person on earth, I wonder who that is, he must have a blissful life.


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## Don Roley (Jul 8, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> its funny how some people (not all people) will actually avoid conflict with you if they know you study ma.



Wrong attitude to have as a martial artist. I can tell that you have been blessed with a lack of experience with serious trouble. Those that have had some serious problems can tell you that if someone does not think they can take you in a fair fight from the front, they'll come at you with friends, they'll come at you from behind, they'll come at you with weapons or any combination of the above.

But you probably do not think that you are letting people know you practice martial arts. Ignorance is bliss. You send out all these little signals and such and scratch your head how mistakes could have been made and now it seems everyone knows you are a ninja. The answer is because part of you wanted them to, maybe a part you didn't know about.

You don't have to go far in the martial arts to run across folks that want to think of themselves as killer commando types. They want to think they are killers and they want others to think they are bad **** killers. It is their self image that they want to present on the world for whatever reason they have. Probably a lack of personal power. There are a lot of damaged goods that walk into martial art studios trying to fight battles they lost long ago.

Bud Malmstrom wrote a little article in Ninja Magazine a long time ago. (It has not been in publication for over ten years so don't go looking for it.) He wrote that when he was young he joined the USMC and later joined ninjutsu while telling himself he was doing it to protect his family, country, etc. The truth he realized when he wrote the artcle years later was that his real reasons, the ones he could not tell himself at the time, was that he wanted to be a killer. He wanted people to look on him with the respect a killer gets. At the time he joined he would have never admited it. It was only after a long process of getting things out of his system that he was able to realize it himself.

Take a look at the following link,

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/tough.html#survivor_personality

Read the section, then the entire page, heck read the entire site if you can. These bad **** folks just love it when others look on them with the knowledge that they can do damage. Because of the image in the media, ninjutsu gets a hell of lot more than its fair share compared with other arts. Tai Chi gets almost none. But the guys with links to Japan tend not to keep these folks. We won't feed their fantasy if we can. The killer commando types drift off and find some young stud doing macho things or wrapped up in a dark warrior image.

The scariest people I know don't raise eyebrows as they walk past. When Takamatsu died his neighbors were surprised to find out that he was a ninjutsu teacher. Not only do they make themselves less of a target, they also seem to _know, really know_ the type of damage they can do and do not feel a need to convince themselves by convincing others. 

So, why let slip that you do martial arts? I am sure some people can give the same excuses as those that never diet do with the same conviction and lack of substance to it. Those that feel a need to have others treat them like killer commandos due to a lack of personal power and the like are never going to admit to themselves their actual motivation.


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## heretic888 (Jul 8, 2004)

VERY well said, Don.  :asian:


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## Enson (Jul 8, 2004)

i guess you should know me before you try and psycho-analyze (spelling) me. just my thoughts. but good try. are you an english teacher or a psychologist? dr. roley? 
peace


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## hedgehogey (Jul 8, 2004)

Oh my god. 



> Realistically speaking for self-defense you don't really need to be in that great of shape. First of all because of the difference between self-defense and fighting, a self-defense situation isn't going to be as long and drawn out as either a fight or a sporting match. Your only goal in a self-defense situation is to get the hell out of there. That means instead of standing there trying to fight you only engage your opponent long enough to knock him down and run.



And how the hell are you gonna run if you're not physically fit? 

I'm speechless. I am without speech.


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## Dale Seago (Jul 8, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> Oh my god.
> 
> And how the hell are you gonna run if you're not physically fit?
> 
> I'm speechless. I am without speech.



You're taking MacYoung a bit out of context. Best to look at that section in its entirety:



> There is good reason to be physically fit in order to fight...if you are in the military.
> 
> Simply stated physical fitness is mandatory if you are expected to be able to endure cold, wet, harsh conditions for days on end and then be able to function when the battle arrives. Without good physical conditioning you will more easily fall victim to fatigue, exhaustion and stress. In doing so you will make mistakes, perhaps lethal ones.
> 
> ...



It's also worth citing a bit of what he has to say about The difference between fighting and self-defense: 



> Let me start out by saying: Most martial arts/self-defense training will get you thrown in jail, sued or both.
> 
> That is because, while self-defense is legal, fighting is not. Most martial arts instruction is oriented towards one-on-one fighting or "dueling." As such, it is predicated on the assumption that you are a willing participant. Now you can rationalize around it saying "That isn't what we train for," but until you understand what the legal differences are between self-defense and fighting (and how the police, law and society look at the subject) you are putting yourself in serious danger -- both physically and legally.


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## Don Roley (Jul 8, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i guess you should know me before you try and psycho-analyze (spelling) me.



Of course, you realize that a good indication that someone has hit a sore spot exactly on the head is when someone immediately comes up with some sort of defense mechanism that goes along the line of, "I don't have to listen to what you say because......."

To be a warrior, you have to improve yourself. Finding those dark parts of your personality and daring to face them is a big part of this path.

A blind spot is not only an area that you can not see, it is an area that you do not know that you can't see.


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## Don Roley (Jul 10, 2004)

Interesting article realted to the subject. No, it is not the one I promised. But it is still good reading.

http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/concealedtreasure.htm


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## Enson (Jul 10, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Of course, you realize that a good indication that someone has hit a sore spot exactly on the head is when someone immediately comes up with some sort of defense mechanism that goes along the line of, "I don't have to listen to what you say because......."
> 
> To be a warrior, you have to improve yourself. Finding those dark parts of your personality and daring to face them is a big part of this path.
> 
> A blind spot is not only an area that you can not see, it is an area that you do not know that you can't see.


"here we go". dr. i also have a pain in my lower back what do you think its from? dude, the thing that people like the least about you (imo) is that you are so darn confrontational. the only thing with me is i don't run away like the ninjikai guys. (don't remember the names right now. maybe not all of them) or sojobow.(not to say any of them were cowards, just probably got tired of your games) you want to be a moderator so bad that you will put down anyone that has a different opinion. let me just put it out for you. you... okay listen up... you don't know everything. you sound like an old bitter person that has had too many kids walk across your lawn. "get the poll out of your keester, and we'll get along just fine" (quote from the movie "uncle buck") let me psycho analyze you for a sec. you put next to your name a "scarey" pic on this site and also on budoseek. you try to manipulate everyone by dominating the page and scaring everyone off. you try to make yourself look and sound scarey. i might imagine that either you are a middle child and have "middle child sydrome" or are short and have "short man sydrome". (probably the latter) i've looked at the other forums and man they really get questions answered. here no one will respond because they are afraid that you will get on and start saying that japan doesn't have a log of it in the "japan times". who cares? do we all live in japan? nope. you need help and probably to live in a gated community. i never said i don't have to listen to you. i'm just saying that trying to manipulate everyone has to stop at some point doctor. let it go man. you'll feel better if you do.


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## Flatlander (Jul 10, 2004)

:lurk:


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## Don Roley (Jul 10, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> okay listen up... you don't know everything. you sound like an old bitter person that has had too many kids walk across your lawn. "get the poll out of your keester, and we'll get along just fine" (quote from the movie "uncle buck") let me psycho analyze you for a sec. you put next to your name a "scarey" pic on this site and also on budoseek. you try to manipulate everyone by dominating the page and scaring everyone off. you try to make yourself look and sound scarey.



Wow, did I strike a nerve or what?

I actually thought that putting up a avatar of Darth Maul and a Nazgul was kind of silly on my part. There was a running gag on another site about me being a sith lord and so Maul was a logical extension of that joke. I have seen avatars of the actual people with guns, training or showing off their muscles. I seriously doubt you can find another person that thinks I am trying to be scary.

The truth is that I am a simple English teacher for my city and I am happy with that. No one around me at work knows my interest in budo. I am officially middle aged and I still play on the swings during recess.

Anyone that knows me would say that I am the last person to take myself seriously or try to project a dangerous image. I have seen hell, it is now time to play.

But I do get active when I see false information being spread. And there is a lot of it being spread on the internet. Since you are one of the ones involved in spreading an image of the ninja different from that you find in Japan, it is only natural that your misguided impressions often get singled out for correction. That must be annoying. I can understand your hatred towards me. But I am only trying to counter with the truth when I see false information being spread.


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## DuckofDeath (Jul 10, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> "get the poll out of your keester, and we'll get along just fine"



People cast ballots in his posterior?


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## Don Roley (Jul 10, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> People cast ballots in his posterior?



I predict a run of hanging chad jokes.  :whip:


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## Elizium (Jul 11, 2004)

Why not walk away?  It is better than having someone play Riverdance on your head.


The arguement was won by walking away.  He took the only thing that the person had to argue with and that was himself.

Now Enson in this thread is saying that he never runs away.  So why continue when someone is opressing you in a thread?  You can always walk away from this arguement and annoy other people.  No one will think less of you than they do now.

To me Enson you have a load left to learn.  You need to learn respect for others on these forums as someone has some knowledge that you do not have.  Even me, I know some, but not all, but I do not berate others about ho or why someone is running a thread.  I just ignore it and move along.  And Mr. Roley knows.  The same with Mr. Seago and Mr. Severe.  You should learn from these people and your ignorance may become less.


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## Enson (Jul 12, 2004)

i don't ever remember spreading false information. i have always stated that i have either read or heard or have been taught. next, i have always given credit to "dr." roley, mr severe, and mr seago for their vast knowledge of japanese arts. for this i have the upmost respect for them. the thing that i get annoyed on is when a newbie starts asking questions and then they (some bujin practicioners)  ask if he studies bujin... and if he doesn't they will trash his sensei and tell him he doesn't belong. (i.e. the ninjikai guys) this is if i remember an open forum. i choose to defend my postion in saying "dr." roley has some serious racial issues. did martin luther king run away? nope. if it was a question of japanese history "the doc" is the first place i would turn to. if it was  question of body movement or bujinkan by-laws i would turn to mr. seago, and if it was a question about actual combat i would turn to mr. severe.(all these apart from my own sensei) now i guess i was the one who struck a nerve on the doc with my last post and if i offended you doc for that i apologize. now about respect for each other... i believe i have never faulted in respect towards any other human and especially anyone on this forum, but i have seen others do it.(i.e. the tenjindo thread) well i think i'm done now. you can choose to bash me like others out there. i know that i have no "holy rit" with my name on it. i'm just a martial artist trying to make this world (maybe starting with this forum) a better place for everyone. now can we talk about real techniques, and stop making everything a fued?
peace


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## Kreth (Jul 12, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> the thing that i get annoyed on is when a newbie starts asking questions and then they (some bujin practicioners)  ask if he studies bujin... and if he doesn't they will trash his sensei and tell him he doesn't belong. (i.e. the ninjikai guys) this is if i remember an open forum.


The Ninjutsu forum is a subforum under the Japanese Martial Arts forum. Therefore, if your ninjutsu/ninjitsu [sic] lineage has no ties to Japan, you should not be posting here.

Jeff


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## Enson (Jul 12, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> The Ninjutsu forum is a subforum under the Japanese Martial Arts forum. Therefore, if your ninjutsu/ninjitsu [sic] lineage has no ties to Japan, you should not be posting here.
> 
> Jeff


kreth buddy, check out the "newbies thread... i think its point 3. you probably signed up before that was posted.


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## Kreth (Jul 12, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> kreth buddy, check out the "newbies thread... i think its point 3. you probably signed up before that was posted.


Nice try, but... it's not politics at all. It's a matter of keeping a discussion forum on topic. There is a General Martial Arts forum for non-Japanese systems. I'm sure the guys in the Russian Martial Arts forum would point me in the same direction if I went there and started posting my opinion on RMA, based on my creation of Yankee Sambo, or some other such nonsense. 

Jeff


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## Enson (Jul 12, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Wow, did I strike a nerve or what?
> 
> I can understand your hatred towards me. But I am only trying to counter with the truth when I see false information being spread.


oh and doc i don't hate you. i don't hate anyone. peace:boing2:


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## Don Roley (Jul 12, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i choose to defend my postion in saying "dr." roley has some serious racial issues. did martin luther king run away?



It seems the latest fad to try to paint the guy you hate as some sort of racist. It is a low, non-honorable method of attack. I find the very idea of me being a racist as silly. People that have seen me would too.

Quite simply put, the philosophy, ways of generating power, tactics, etc that you espouse are "wrong" from a Japanese ninjutsu perspective. As I understand it the moderators are trying to work out a way to resolve this problem. When you have people in Japan doing things one way, and thirty different groups that merely want tpo use the term "ninjutsu" as part of their title doing it 30 different ways, there is going to be some confusion and conflict.

The fact is, your teacher, Rick Tew, did not bother to really study the art of ninjutsu before he created his own style at a tender age. So much of your misconceptions come from him. The very idea of letting people know you practice ninjutsu as you have would freak out a ninja 200 years ago. The ninja were under cover specialists. They had to live a life of concealment.

Many of the types of people that now want to join ninjutsu do so in order to impress others with just how much of a macho killing machine they are. Groups like Ashida Kim with his psuedo secrecy and Rick Tew with his acrobatics, feed on this image. When I see a web site that has ninja hoods and sniper rifles, I know that the students they get are ones that are attracted to the killer commando image. The true ninja would just want to find a way to get home alive with as little trouble as possible. Some folks give lip service to that, but really are just waiting for a chance to use their deadly skills.

So, when you talk about things, you are coming from a different, wrong source than what I get from Japanese traditions. By talking about the way things are in Japan, I am not being racist. I am just stating the facts.

I think maybe you should make a sincere apology to me and reform your ways. You hove issues and you don't seem to like the way that I have described you and your motivations down to a T. As much as you claim not to hate me, the fact that you use the term "doc" for me shows that your statements are just for show with no substance to them.

So apologize and maybe you will start to learn something about yourself if you listen with an open mind.


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## Genin Andrew (Jul 12, 2004)

Enson,i respect the fact that you are taking a stand and me and you have had no conflict in the past and i do not wish to start any.However i would ask that you stop using me and my art and my past posts and disagreements with Mr.Roley  to strengthen your argument.

I study Ninjukai Taijutsu,whether others see it as a legitimate ninja art is irrelevent,I am interested in Japanese history and the History of the ninja,that it why i post here.I come with an open mind to learn from others and respect their various viewpoints.

Me and Don have had a head clash or too in the past but that was meerly a disagreement in opinion and i have full respect in him too as i do you.I didnt "run away" from the argument with Mr.Roley the fact was that i had stated my position and opinion and so did he,we both stood firmly and it wasnt going to go anywhere more,we got over it.So i suggest you end this and move on from this little "battle".

I think this is a golden example of how a thread shouldnt end up like...


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## Enson (Jul 13, 2004)

genin andrew, i only used you as an example but what i have seen has gone way back. i never intended to use you as a campaign (spelling) poster. i would never want to have any conflict with you.

mr. roley, i apologize for confronting you. i acknowledge you as knowing much more than i do in the japanese arts. (which i have expressed before) i do apologize for confronting you the way i did. i had a point to make and i believe that i made myself understood. as far as your mulitple insults to other martial artist... well that is your opinion and you are entitled to them. i do apologize to the moderators from my part for letting emotions get the better of me. don (not doc  ) i guess you did know me better than i knew you. (even though we have never met) let us get on to bigger and better things. i believe that there should be no problems with two (iyo) very different arts expressing their opinions in the same forum. (w/out spreading any misinformation of course) well enough said on my part. see you in cyber space.
peace


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## heretic888 (Jul 13, 2004)

> as far as your mulitple insults to me, my sensei and other martial artist... well that is your opinion and you are entitled to them.



Insults?? Whu??

Sorry, enson, I just don't see it, man.

The only thing Don claimed was that what you guys do is _different_ from the way things are percieved and done in Japan. Which, as far as I can see, is quite true.

If you have a problem with that, and construe that as an "insult", well --- what can I say??

My personal opinion is that these arguments stem from the fact that a lot of groups that have nothing to do with Japanese martial traditions are vying to have the label "ninjutsu" tacked onto their system. They even intentionally mispell it as "ninjitsu" (a la Tew and Saito) to somehow denote there is a difference between the two (i.e., "ninjutsu" and "ninjitsu" are apparently two different arts).

Yet... these groups have no connection to the Japanese "ninja" traditions, and have often acknowledged this (I'm thinking of the Saito and Tew groups here). Yet, still, the label "ninjutsu"/"ninjitsu" is perpetually used.

Why, oh why, oh why??  :idunno:


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## gmunoz (Jul 13, 2004)

Boy it seems like we got a whole lot of ego goin' on around these parts!  I must say that I would find the comments made by Mr. Roley perhaps not insults, but definitely condescending about Rick Tew.  Yeah, the words sound very "truthful" but are, frankly put, pompous fasads for a dishonorable approach to stricking verbal jabs at someone.  I don't know anyone on this forum but it appears that these dialogues are becoming quite childish from all perspectives.  Why not agree to disagree?  That, I think would be the honorable thing to do.


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## Nightingale (Jul 13, 2004)

MT MOD NOTE:

Please keep the discussion polite, respectful and *on topic*.

-Nightingale-
MT MODERATOR


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## Shogun (Jul 13, 2004)

> The very idea of letting people know you practice ninjutsu as you have would freak out a ninja 200 years ago. The ninja were under cover specialists. They had to live a life of concealment.


SSSHHHHHH! its called Happo Biken. and we wear white Gi's. right? right. No more talk of this "ninjutsu" you speak of. its the work of the devil. lol.


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## Elizium (Jul 14, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> SSSHHHHHH! its called Happo Biken. and we wear white Gi's. right? right. No more talk of this "ninjutsu" you speak of. its the work of the devil. lol.


Really?  So we do not have to wear them silly hoods and masks any more? :uhyeah:


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## Shogun (Jul 15, 2004)

The only hoods I know of is the mean streets of Iga. jk.


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## Elizium (Jul 15, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> The only hoods I know of is the mean streets of Iga. jk.


Ooooh hoddie ninjas.  Do they have Nike emblazoned on the back?


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## Don Roley (Jul 17, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> The only hoods I know of is the mean streets of Iga. jk.



Just as an aside, there are gangsta rappers in Japan. I find them amusing. All their tough walking and talking and I know the _cheerleaders_ in my old school would chase these guys down the block, beat them up and take their lunch money.


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