# Pot withdrawal similar to quitting cigarettes;  Study



## Ceicei (Jan 26, 2008)

This is a small study done at John Hopkins University School of Medicine. 



> Vandrey said the findings have important implications because of the lack of data on marijuana withdrawal. Until recently, this has led to these symptoms not being included in medical reference literature.



http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSN2563804920080125?sp=true

Why were marijuana withdrawal symptoms not previously included in medical reference literature?  Would this study make a difference to the popular claims in the past by others who say pot is less harmful than cigarettes?

- Ceicei


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## kidswarrior (Jan 26, 2008)

Ceicei said:


> This is a small study done at John Hopkins University School of Medicine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good find, Ceicei, thanks. In the past few years I've gone from gangs being the most formidable problem among my students, to drugs being the biggest problem. This study helps explain why it's so difficult to deal with.


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## Big Don (Jan 26, 2008)

Gee, and we are told, ad naseum, that ciggarettes are as addictive as heroin, and that marijuana isn't addictive at all...
Go figure...


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 26, 2008)

Ceicei said:


> This is a small study done at John Hopkins University School of Medicine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tomorrow another study will "prove" that weed's as addictive as Jello pudding pops. I've never met anyone addicted to marijewana, & considering my friends/fan base, obviously Tom Hopkins didn't get a quantitative sample, or whatevers.


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## Kacey (Jan 26, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Tomorrow another study will "prove" that weed's as addictive as Jello pudding pops. I've never met anyone addicted to marijewana



I have - else, how do you explain someone who is on mandatory UA's, being checked randomly for alcohol and drugs, who has already been caught once by court system for a dirty UA, who continues to use marijuana, including the night before his next scheduled UA - and whose excuse was "But, I was caught for DUI - they shouldn't even be _testing_ for pot, because that's not what I was using when I was caught weaving across the road [under the influence of alcohol]" - who smoked pot the night before UA "to relax", and who smoked pot the night before his court date "to relax", _knowing_ he would be tested at court that day.  There are plenty of ways to relax that don't involve drugs or alcohol - why pick one that you _know _is going to get you in trouble, and rationalize it so strongly, unless you _cannot_ be without it, because you are addicted?

From marijuana-addiction.net



> Marijuana addiction has the same characteristics as                any other addiction to other drugs including alcohol, tobacco or                even caffeine. The frequent obsession with the drug, thinking about                it all the time, where to get it, when to get it, is there enough,                is it good enough, will I have the money for more are frequently                asked questions. Another trait of marijuana addiction is the physical                craving that comes when the body adapts to the drug and begins to                develop a tolerance to it. Anyone who has been smoking marijuana                for awhile can tell that they must smoke more now to feel the same                effect that just a few hits used to produce. It's not about the                quality of the weed, it's the bodies defense mechanism as it readjusts                to keep balance with the frequent supply of new chemicals being                delivered by the pot.



There are plenty of people who say marijuana is not addictive - and most of them have reasons to want it legalized.  There are legitimate medical reasons to use marijuana - to reduce nausea during chemotherapy, as a pain reliever for certain types of pain (i.e. arthritis), for glaucoma - but there are many medications that have legitimate uses that are controlled because of the risk of misuse.  Were marijuana not used as a recreational drug, I think it would be in the same class as many other controlled substances... but then, so would aspirin, were it to be discovered today.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 26, 2008)

As a recovering addict (with Mary-wanna being my primary drug of choice--of many) I could've told those guys that at John Hopkins that the crap was addicting... sheesh Spent all that money for something I already knew and could've told them for free ?  

It has prolonged effects as well even after 19 years of not touching the stuff I still find myself not minding of having a toke or three... but then remembered all that I've gained since I've quit. It ain't easy. 
I've got some long term memory...uhh, what's it called... umm... oh yeah... loss. 
But thankfully it's not all fried, baked or whatever you want to call it.


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## Empty Hands (Jan 26, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Were marijuana not used as a recreational drug, I think it would be in the same class as many other controlled substances... but then, so would aspirin, were it to be discovered today.



Even cocaine is a schedule 2 drug, which means it can be prescribed by doctors for certain purposes.  Marijuana, despite the proven uses you note, is classified as schedule 3, and cannot be legitimately used for any purpose (generally) by federal law.

Why the government is so afraid of marijuana is a question best left to someone smarter than myself.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 26, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Even cocaine is a schedule 2 drug, which means it can be prescribed by doctors for certain purposes.  Marijuana, despite the proven uses you note, is classified as schedule 3, and cannot be legitimately used for any purpose (generally) by federal law.
> 
> Why the government is so afraid of marijuana is a question best left to someone smarter than myself.


When my father fell and broke his back (recently-- he's ok now) the doctors discovered that there wasn't much they could do except prescribe pain killers. First of all they tried codine which is basically Tyenol 3 then progressively bumped him up to stronger and stronger meds, graduating him from codine, to hydrocodone (Loratab), Percocet (Oxycodone is commercially made from thebaine, an opiate alkaloid and minor component of opium.[2] The 14' hydroxy group increases potency by about 50% over hydrocodone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percocet) then bumping up the ante to Methodone (Methadone is a synthetic opioid, used medically as an analgesic and anti-addictive(*????*). It was developed in Germany in 1937.
Although chemically unlike morphine or heroin, methadone also acts on the opioid receptors and thus produces many of the same effects. Methadone is also used in managing chronic pain due to its long duration of action and very low cost {bullcrap}. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methodone ) then finally having hit the ceiling they reverted to cortizone injections which finally after a few days got rid of the pain that he was experiencing.
Now I personally have experienced the pain killing qualities of marijuana itself, but came to realize that it wasn't exactly getting rid of the pain as more of covering it up with a psychotropic substance/chemical, or over stimulating the dopamine of the brain. Sorta taking you AWAY from the pain rather eliminating or minimizing it like a good pain killer should. 
Had Marijuana been legal then I can presume that the docs at the "pain-management" would've prescribed it to my dad, possibly via pill form rather than having him smoke it (which would be a faster way for the THC to reach his brain and producing the desired effect). But it would have introduced him to an addiction that he didn't need. Now all of these aforementioned drugs (not marijuana) are derivatives of the opium plant or poppy flower. Known to be also the base ingredient of morphine and heroin. It's probably why the so called "drug-war" is such a fricken joke. The hypocracy is so thick you can cut it with a spoon. 
It was fortunate that my dad was being very testy and "picky" if you will concerning his pain meds and that he didn't stay on any particular one long enough to become addicted to it, he did however after trying all those flavors preferred the hydrocodone (Loratabs) ironically. 
But as you were saying those drugs are strictly controlled by the government. 

Now as to why the government is so afraid of marijuana so much that legalization is probably out of the question is indeed a question for smarter brains than yourself and myself included. However I can only hypothesize that the reason lies within the (illicited) drug trade it self. Were Marijuana legalized  the effect I'm guessing would be very much the same as it was during prohibition. Drug-lords would be seriously undercut in their beloved profits and they would bring the war on drugs back on the government. 
But legalization is *NOT* the topic here. Topic is the addictive properties of the drug in question. 
You'll meet hundreds and thousands of regular marijuana users that will say "they're not addicted" ... ask them to quit, cold turkey (like I did) and see what they say... "Why?" and that is followed by whatever arguments *they*  have against the idea of it being addicting. 
They won't do it but they'll cite that they won't because it's not harmful, wherein the real reason lies in the fact that they're addicted to it. It's called denial, minimizing, rationalizing and justifying. And as with any addiction... it boils down to lying to ones self. A lie that is told so often that it becomes the truth. 

A drug is a drug is a drug, no matter how you slice it, shoot it, pop it, drink it, or smoke it. It's going to get you in the end.


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## Empty Hands (Jan 26, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> When my father fell and broke his back...



I'm glad your Dad is OK now, and didn't pick up any excess addictions on his pharmacological journey.

I also like the cat pic!

As for MJ, I understand the topic is not legalization, and that it probably is addictive.  My only point is that probably more so than marijuana, all those drugs your Dad was exposed to were highly addictive as well.  However, they can be prescribed by a doctor for their benefits, against which risks must be weighed.  For some reason, MJ is exempted from this rational calculus.

Although I should say, in the extremity of the government's drug war paranoia, even legitimate doctors prescribing legitimate pain meds are coming under fire.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/29239.html


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## MA-Caver (Jan 26, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> I'm glad your Dad is OK now, and didn't pick up any excess addictions on his pharmacological journey.
> 
> I also like the cat pic!
> 
> ...


I'll go along with that... except that it is to say that MJ is *equally* as addictive as those high end prescriptions. Just that the addiction is much more subtle. 

Ya, I like the cat pic too... been there done that a few too many times myself.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 26, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> As a recovering addict (with Mary-wanna being my primary drug of choice--of many) I could've told those guys that at John Hopkins that the crap was addicting... *It has prolonged effects as well even after 19 years of not touching the stuff I still find myself not minding of having a toke or three... *but then remembered all that I've gained since I've quit. It ain't easy.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lfao: :roflmao: :lfao:

Thanks for that! I really needed that.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 26, 2008)

Kacey said:


> > Marijuana addiction has the same characteristics as any other addiction to other drugs including alcohol, tobacco or even caffeine. The frequent obsession with the drug, *thinking about it all the time, where to get it, when to get it, is there enough, is it good enough, will I have the money for more are frequently asked questions.* Another trait of marijuana addiction is the physical craving that comes when the body adapts to the drug and begins to develop a tolerance to it. Anyone who has been smoking marijuana for awhile can tell that they must smoke more now to feel the same effect that just a few hits used to produce. It's not about the quality of the weed, it's the bodies defense mechanism as it readjusts to keep balance with the frequent supply of new chemicals being delivered by the pot.



You're describing addictive personality. You know, when something makes you feel better about yourself or your life. Like, distracting yourself with food, or video games, or sex.

I'd love to see the studies of MARIJUANA WITHDRAWALS. Besides, of course,"Awww, man! I really wanted to smoke today. Oh well, whatevers."


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## Andrew Green (Jan 27, 2008)

Ceicei said:


> Why were marijuana withdrawal symptoms not previously included in medical reference literature?  Would this study make a difference to the popular claims in the past by others who say pot is less harmful than cigarettes?
> 
> - Ceicei



Because there have been many studies that say different things 

But regardless, a couple things in the article do stand out.  It specified that they tested "heavy users".  Heavy users of any number of drugs and substances will see effects.  Even people that stop drinking coffee who where heavy coffee drinkers go into withdrawal, but no one would argue that coffee is as harmful as cigarettes or Crack. 

Also the article says nothing about harmfulness, just that if used heavily quitting will give you withdrawal symptoms.  I don't think that is a shock to anyone?


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## redfang (Jan 27, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Even cocaine is a schedule 2 drug, which means it can be prescribed by doctors for certain purposes. Marijuana, despite the proven uses you note, is classified as schedule 3, and cannot be legitimately used for any purpose (generally) by federal law.
> 
> Why the government is so afraid of marijuana is a question best left to someone smarter than myself.


I don't believe that there are any circumstances in which cocaine can be prescribed by a doctor in the U.S. And in my state, possession of cocaine is punished much more severely, even a trace amount is a felony. Marijuana, which is schedule VI by the way, requires that one have several ounces before simple possession is a felony.

As for its withdrawal, one study does not make it gospel. I am unconvinced that there are significant similarities between withdrawal from pot and nicotine. I agree that folks can become psychologically dependent on pot, but I disagree that for most, pot is anywhere close to being as addictive as nicotine. And most of the research in the last century or so supports that.


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## redfang (Jan 27, 2008)

Okay, well now I just read the article, originally I was just respondind to posts. The article isn't all that earth shattering and doesn't really say anything we did not already know. Except that I recall seeing symptoms published about withdrawal going back 20 - 25 years (and I'm sure prior to that, I'm only 37 tho.). Maybe the medical journals just hadn't caught on.


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## Kacey (Jan 27, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> You're describing addictive personality. You know, when something makes you feel better about yourself or your life. Like, distracting yourself with food, or video games, or sex.
> 
> I'd love to see the studies of MARIJUANA WITHDRAWALS. Besides, of course,"Awww, man! I really wanted to smoke today. Oh well, whatevers."



There've been quite a few - a google search reveals many such studies.


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## kaizasosei (Jan 27, 2008)

i do think that weed is slightly physically addictive.  but i find that it far more mentally addictive.  just like any ritualized actions involving substances.  one gets accustomed to the feel of it.  it begins to be torturous not to be able to have a 'morning' cig with coffee  or a certain substance in a certain occasion.  problem with weed, if one pushes it a bit, it's almost flexible enough to do anywhere anytime.  depends on the substance too.  because there are thousands of possible chemicals that may be called constituents of marijuana.  however, one given plant cannot have more that something like 130+ chemicals.
therefore, it is difficult to a finger on the actual substance due to it's wide spectrum.   different strains will have very different effects.  where one plant would cause you to be braindead or comatose for at least some hours, another strain may cause you to study all night long. 
that's the  problem is that often people have no idea what they are smoking.  if one were to change the type of weed around drastically, one could avoid physical addiction quite effectively(not that it is as bad as other substances)- but the mental addiction is like any other.  being addicted to chocolate- every habit in itself is the start of an addiction. most addiction is a habit that is out of control. 

i guess there are good habits too.  being addicted to sports would be good i think...and i was sortof addicted to training in the past.  maybe it's good to be a bit ambitiously compulsive in order to reach certain goals.

as for the withdrawal symptoms, they are- in order-  calm dissociative thought, nervousness and irratability, downright indignance with tantrums and all, feeling of dispair and darkness,insomnia,- euphoria, extreme euphoria, then back to nervousness and intollerance for  simple  everyday  troubles-the ant becomes and elephant, paranoia-people are actually doing you wrong- (this is an illusion because one is not getting the drug one needs/wants!)
after this phase is over, one starts to become normal again.  this can be noticed in that one tends to gain a little weight, becomes far more active, extroverted and able to epress oneself directly as well as harshly(i mena in a positive way).   

all people however are just as addicted to food, society, tv, etc.

one can also distract oneself very effectively by fasting for 10 days or not having sex for 2 years.

i read on one website where the subjects of suicide and murder were being analyzed to great lengths.  there i read that as humans, we eat to live.  however, the sick aspect which is very strong in our societies, is that people are not eating to live, but eating as a way of escaping the unbearable pains of not eating.  for someone who has been through war or seen really nasty things, it is quite a sad thing to notice. furthermore, if what you experienced is too much for society, then there is virtualy no place for you to express yourself-except at a therapist or something like that.  -  many of those war scared people put a great deal of trust into family and therapy.  however, often, even the family or professionals are incapable of helping because they cannot/do not want to relate.



j


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 27, 2008)

Kacey said:


> I have - else, how do you explain someone who is on mandatory UA's, being checked randomly for alcohol and drugs, who has already been caught once by court system for a dirty UA, who continues to use marijuana, including the night before his next scheduled UA - and whose excuse was "But, I was caught for DUI - they shouldn't even be _testing_ for pot, because that's not what I was using when I was caught weaving across the road [under the influence of alcohol]" - who smoked pot the night before UA "to relax", and who smoked pot the night before his court date "to relax", _knowing_ he would be tested at court that day.  There are plenty of ways to relax that don't involve drugs or alcohol - why pick one that you _know _is going to get you in trouble, and rationalize it so strongly, unless you _cannot_ be without it, because you are addicted?
> 
> From marijuana-addiction.net
> 
> ...





People I have met or known who were addicted to marijuana included those who were lawyers and nurses and teachers and ..., . They all claimed it was no big deal they could all stop next week if they WANTED TOO. But it seemed that no matter what they did they never truly wanted to stop. 

Most of those who were into Marijuana also had tried some other form of drug such as Cocaine of Heroin or crack or what have you. All because they associated with people who did this first drug who also sold or did other drugs as well.


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## Empty Hands (Jan 27, 2008)

redfang said:


> I don't believe that there are any circumstances in which cocaine can be prescribed by a doctor in the U.S.



Most notably, it can be used as a nasal anesthetic.  Such as when you might need your broken nose set.


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lfao: :roflmao: :lfao:
> 
> Thanks for that! I really needed that.


 
Mmm and I'm sure we are pleased you shared that with us, a bit insensitive don't you think? Addictions of any type even being addicted to saying stupid things can be very painful for both the sufferer and those around them.


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 27, 2008)

_but i find that it far more mentally addictive. just like any ritualized actions involving substances. one gets accustomed to the feel of it. _

I knew an old guy who smoked half the year.  Same time every year he would take up smoking... same time every year he would quit.  He believed that smoking was not physically addictive, just habit forming in the sense that you became mentally addicted to the activity itself, the process of smoking


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## MA-Caver (Jan 27, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Mmm and I'm sure we are pleased you shared that with us, a bit insensitive don't you think? Addictions of any type even being addicted to saying stupid things can be very painful for both the sufferer and those around them.


Well I for one am surprised that he's laughing at a typo, which I've been having quite a few lately on this board. But s'ok...


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 27, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Most notably, it can be used as a nasal anesthetic.  Such as when you might need your broken nose set.



That's when I was first exposed to cocaine, the packing in my sinuses was soaked in a cocaine solution, basically pharm cocaine and sterile water. 

I couldn't feel a thing, so I suppose it worked.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 27, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Mmm and I'm sure we are pleased you shared that with us, a bit insensitive don't you think? Addictions of any type even being addicted to saying stupid things can be very painful for both the sufferer and those around them.



Thank you.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 27, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> Most of those who were into Marijuana also had tried some other form of drug such as Cocaine of Heroin or crack or what have you. All because they associated with people who did this first drug who also sold or did other drugs as well.



Oh, don't start with the whole "gateway drug" thing. Please. Legalize everything, I say, & let the weak cull themselves out of the gene pool.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 27, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Oh, don't start with the whole "gateway drug" thing. Please. Legalize everything, I say, & let the weak cull themselves out of the gene pool.



Gee Doc, that makes me feel so much better. Knowing that if I continued the path that I was on (using/selling drugs) ... I'd be out of your precious gene pool.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 27, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Gee Doc, that makes me feel so much better. Knowing that if I continued the path that I was on (using/selling drugs) ... I'd be out of your precious gene pool.



No, you pulled yourself out of what was, in your opinion, a self-destructive behavior. If you truly feel better about yourself & your choices, then good. 

& the human gene pool is very precious. In this synthetic environment we've created, we have nothing to fear but ourselves and illness, & we do our damnedest to eliminate those threats. Nature tries hard to clean our gene pool, and we fight it. Nature will only get worse...


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## MA-Caver (Jan 27, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> No, you pulled yourself out of what was, in your opinion, a self-destructive behavior. If you truly feel better about yourself & your choices, then good.
> 
> & the human gene pool is very precious. In this synthetic environment we've created, we have nothing to fear but ourselves and illness, & we do our damnedest to eliminate those threats. Nature tries hard to clean our gene pool, and we fight it. Nature will only get worse...



Yeah I did... but how many of my friends are still out there? How many have died thus far? A lot of them I knew were pretty decent people. Just had that stinking addiction, like I still do. I'm always going to be addicted but make the choice daily not to use/drink. 
I do feel better about myself? Of course I do, and I didn't mean to come off as harshly as that may have sounded, but had to pause to wonder if I didn't make that choice 19 years ago would I still be such a flawed person that it'd be better that I wouldn't breed to contaminate the so called gene pool? 
Some of the brightest, most innovative, intelligent and talented people have come out of dysfunctional homes and had dysfunctional (addicted/alcoholic) parents breeding/raising them. 
So perhaps weeding out addicts and alcoholics might not be too bright an idea, eh? 
But as you said... Nature knows best and nature... can be a *****.


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## Kacey (Jan 27, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Oh, don't start with the whole "gateway drug" thing. Please. Legalize everything, I say, & let the weak cull themselves out of the gene pool.



So... one of my very good friends, a Ph.D. in Physics, who was killed by a driver high on meth (he lived; seems he was so limp at the time of impact that he avoided life-threatening injuries) - by your statement, she was "culled" from the gene pool because she was "weak"; after all, her death was directly due to drugs... just not drugs _she_ was using.  Too bad the meth-head who hit her had already reproduced - she hadn't, because she wanted to finish graduate school first, something she had done the previous year.

The problem with your argument is that drug users don't just kill themselves; they kill others as well - and many of those others are not the ones that need to culled from the gene pool.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 27, 2008)

Kacey said:


> So... one of my very good friends, a Ph.D. in Physics, who was killed by a driver high on meth (he lived; seems he was so limp at the time of impact that he avoided life-threatening injuries) - by your statement, she was "culled" from the gene pool because she was "weak"; after all, her death was directly due to drugs... just not drugs _she_ was using.  Too bad the meth-head who hit her had already reproduced - she hadn't, because she wanted to finish graduate school first, something she had done the previous year.
> 
> The problem with your argument is that drug users don't just kill themselves; they kill others as well - and many of those others are not the ones that need to culled from the gene pool.



I agree with that. However, the other driver could have just as easily been under the influence of alcohol, pharmaceutical meds, glue, whippits, or whatever. The addictive personality will take whatever they can. Driving "under the influence" is the crime, it doesn't matter what the substance is as long as it is intoxicating enough. 

Sorry about your friend, though. I've lost friends to drunk driving and drunk drivers, but I still think that there are too many restrictive laws. Drugs aren't going anywhere. Prohibition in the 1920's didn't work, they tried to enforce it for 13 years. It will never work. It's better to make everything legal, let those that are going to OD take as much as they want & hopefully they'll take themselves out before they're a threat to anyone else.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 27, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Sorry about your friend, though. I've lost friends to drunk driving and drunk drivers, but I still think that there are too many restrictive laws. Drugs aren't going anywhere. Prohibition in the 1920's didn't work, they tried to enforce it for 13 years. It will never work. It's better to make everything legal, let those that are going to OD take as much as they want & hopefully they'll take themselves out before they're a threat to anyone else.


Ok, gonna try to put this as gently as possible as a means of giving you something to quietly think about... Apply that philosophy/viewpoint to a family member you care about who isn't doing drugs just because they're illegal. 
Again... legalization is *NOT* the topic here. Addiction is... now if drugs (all of them) were legal then we'd have a higher addiction rate, thus a higher death toll of those who use and those who do not.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 27, 2008)

Kacey said:


> So... one of my very good friends, a Ph.D. in Physics, who was killed by a driver high on meth (he lived; seems he was so limp at the time of impact that he avoided life-threatening injuries) - by your statement, she was "culled" from the gene pool because she was "weak"; after all, her death was directly due to drugs... just not drugs _she_ was using.  Too bad the meth-head who hit her had already reproduced - she hadn't, because she wanted to finish graduate school first, something she had done the previous year.
> 
> The problem with your argument is that drug users don't just kill themselves; they kill others as well - and many of those others are not the ones that need to culled from the gene pool.



Statements that make one think, Hmmmm. 

I like this statement.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 27, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Oh, don't start with the whole "gateway drug" thing. Please. Legalize everything, I say, & let the weak cull themselves out of the gene pool.



Would you like to explain to me from your sources those who started with something besides Alcohol or Marijuana first? 

Those I know who were into drugs, all started first with Marijuana and then went on to others. All of those I know form HS and College who were involved in this "scene" started here. 

As to cull the weak. 

In many times in the past those who disagreed with those in charge were culled. 

Those who were stupid and insulted those more skilled or larger than them or had more friends were culled. 

Should we legalize fighting as well. I personally think we should. If I could hit people who make comments I disagree with, and explain to them how wrong they are, by using brute force. You know the old proven by skill on the field so therefore it must be true. I mean no one would be insulting or flipping fingers if they were called out on the floor for their actions. 

But in our more civilized society these things are not legal as people think it is not acceptable. So, I support it just as I support other actions of the law. But when people speak of culling I always wonder if they truly understand the door they are opening. 

I really wonder. 



**** Note this is not a challenge towards you. This is not meant as insult to you. This is not meant as a threat to you. As not only is that against the rules here it is against the law in many places. I just ask the questions to you and this thread to truly understand why people think like this.


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## BrandiJo (Jan 27, 2008)

i know many people who used weed and drinking and never went on to anything harder (myself being one of them and no i don't anymore just an occasional drink ) I also know just as many who have. Perosnally i think everything should be useable but you have to be put on a list to get them. So you will know if the lawyer your paying an obscene amount of money is gonna blow it on drugs and you know that your babysitter isnt a stoner (or maybe is and your ok with that)


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## jks9199 (Jan 27, 2008)

I've kept silent on this thread for a number of reasons.  Suffice to say that I'm not at all surprised that there's withdrawal effects from marijuana, and that I'm definitely against legalization of any drug.  

But I do want to address the gateway drug issue.  It's metaphor; it's not perfect.  I've come across a very small set of people who started with a so-called hard drug like cocaine, and never used marijuana.  I can't recall any who didn't drink.  We are seeing more whose first drug is either MDMA (ecstasy) or LSD; lots of these folks are, worryingly enough, bright high school and college kids - but lots of them also don't see a problem with "a little weed".  (Prescription drug abusers are another category, as well, that often didn't start with marijuana.)  And there are plenty of people who never move beyond a gateway drug like alcohol or marijuana.  Using a gateway drug doesn't guarantee you'll move onto harder drugs anymore than entering the gateway of an exclusive college means you got a degree there.  However, with all of that said - we tend to find that most people using the "hard drugs" like cocaine, heroin, and LSD started with marijuana and alcohol, and moved on seeking a "better high."


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 27, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Ok, gonna try to put this as gently as possible as a means of giving you something to quietly think about... Apply that philosophy/viewpoint to a family member you care about who isn't doing drugs just because they're illegal.



I don't know of anyone that decides to not do mind-altering drugs simply because they're illegal. I have a hard time contemplating such "imaginary" scenarios when we have reality to consider.



MA-Caver said:


> Again... legalization is *NOT* the topic here. Addiction is... now if drugs (all of them) were legal then we'd have a higher addiction rate, thus a higher death toll of those who use and those who do not.



Sorry. I don't buy that. I hope you have a study to back that claim up. There are studies, however, held in Europe and Canada, that show that "drug addicts" can hold jobs and contribute to society when provided with drugs.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 27, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> However, with all of that said - we tend to find that most people using the "hard drugs" like cocaine, heroin, and LSD started with marijuana and alcohol, and moved on seeking a "better high."



I've never experienced heroin, but all of the drugs above give various different "highs". So different, in fact, that I'd say the drug user finds a "high" they prefer, not a "better" one.

Also, the "gateway" effect is by no means etched in stone, it's simply a theory with experts on both sides. In fact, the Institute of Medicine in 1999  found no evidence of a link between cannabis use and the subsequent abuse of other illicit drugs on the basis of its particular physiological effect. In 2006 the Karolinska Institute tested the "gateway" theory by administering marijuana to rats and then heroin to both the first group and a control group that hadn't received any drugs prior. The finding was that the marijuana group consumed more heroin since it was an at-will lever administration. However, the marijuana-exposed rats, despite being desensitized to heroin, were no more likely to get addicted than the controls. Addiction was subjective & not a result of prior drug use.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 28, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> As to cull the weak.
> 
> In many times in the past those who disagreed with those in charge were culled.
> 
> Those who were stupid and insulted those more skilled or larger than them or had more friends were culled.



I'm not talking about being "culled". I'm talking about "self-culling".



Rich Parsons said:


> Should we legalize fighting as well. I personally think we should. If I could hit people who make comments I disagree with, and explain to them how wrong they are, by using brute force. You know the old proven by skill on the field so therefore it must be true. I mean no one would be insulting or flipping fingers if they were called out on the floor for their actions.



Agreed. An armed society is a polite society. 



Rich Parsons said:


> But in our more civilized society these things are not legal as people think it is not acceptable. So, I support it just as I support other actions of the law. But when people speak of culling I always wonder if they truly understand the door they are opening.
> 
> I really wonder.
> 
> ...



Please, I hope that you're not trying to put words in my mouth. Letting those that will overdose overdose is not the same as one individual or group "culling" another.


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## buddah_belly (Jan 28, 2008)

All I know is when I quit smoking the weed, no problems at all.  When I quit smoking the ciggys...holy cow...pure torture.  I still dream of ciggys sometimes.  But I'm glad I quit.


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## kaizasosei (Jan 28, 2008)

im thinking, it has to do with how much you smoke...i don't smoke that many cigs, maybe more in public or going out. i smoke on average about 1- 3 cigarettes a day.  when i am talking with smokers or in a smokers room, i can easily end up chainsmoking.  although i try to inhale only half the smoke and not that deeply.  once i smoked 3 packs in one night- but that was like 12 years ago
cheap cigarettes and bad weed are added health problems and make the unhealthy action downright stupid.  this is sometimes impossibe to know. same with food i guess.  sometimes, you cant know what youll get.


j


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