# I was asked to set up a basic...



## Juany118 (Feb 6, 2018)

Okay I have been asked to set up a basic self-defense class.  These are the ideas have currently in mind and would like any suggestions/critiques/additions.  @gpseymour and others who have taught/teach self defense focused stuff are welcome to contribute.

Here is my base curriculum atm
1.  Target Hardening/situational awareness/avoidance.
2.  After that we get to techniques.  I am want to keep it simple and so here are my current thoughts.
     A. basic breaks from the most common grabs of clothing
     B. attacking soft targets if you can't break, with hand (say grab groin if in a head lock, bite the arm that is head locking <like I said self defense, not fighting>).  With foot, stomping on the instep of the assailants foot.
     C. I am basing the hand "strike" off of Wing Chun straight punch.  The idea of keeping a person's weight behind the punch, vs a lot of rotation, seems to make sense because once you "get it" it is simple more simple.  Punch from the heart and step into it vs having to coordinate rotational movement at the waist.  I will use the punch as the initial training tool but I will then be showing how the same works with the palm, because knuckles and fingers can break.  The target will be face, eyes, throat.
     D. the foot "strike" would be the oblique kick to the knee/thigh.

the basic point of the class will be "avoid the fight, if forced to fight you aren't trying to knock them out but only to create an opening where you can run away and get help."


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 6, 2018)

There are three things I would add in. 

The first I think you may have, but just didn't write, which is de-escalation. Fits a bit into your 1., but when you're already in the situation how to handle it before it becomes physical.

The second is situational weapons (IIRC you have experience with that), particularly the weapons that WONT work. Include a couple that do if you have time, but making sure they don't do something stupid would be the higher priority to me.

The third is throughout the class, reminding them of practice. That's both practicing the techniques themselves, but also practicing the situational awareness/de-escalation aspect. It's pretty common of people to go to a class like that, leaving with confidence that they know what to do. But I would hazard a guess that if they don't practice the techniques (soft and hard), they won't be any better off than if they hadn't attended at all. If anything they might be worse, because they'll be trying to remember what they learned and end up freezing.


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## CB Jones (Feb 6, 2018)

Short discussion on the pros/cons of carrying weapons and the what is allowed by law? (gun, knife, pepper spray, stun gun, brick in purse, etc...)

Short summary and explanation on the laws of your state on Self Defense


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## Juany118 (Feb 6, 2018)

@kempodisciple since I also study Kali, along with Wing ChunC h am surprised improv weapons didnt pop into my head, thanks for the reminder, and yes, de-escalation is part of number 1, I just didn't write it.  That's a hard balance though because in a robbery, rape etc situation that really isn't an option.  I need to figure out a way to get that across BUT not have people get trapped in that loop.

Practicing is definitely on the list btw.

@CB Jones I am definitely going to go into the law but the reason I am trying to avoid specifically addressing deadly weapons is the myth of "you can just shoot them." In my State, and most actually, that isn't the case and I am trying to balance informing people with confusing them.  After 20 years as a cop more than once I have seen self-defense go overboard.  I don't want to contribute to that dynamic.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 6, 2018)

1. Try not to let your opponent to be able to punch on your head should be your highest priority in self-defense.
2. How to sprint from 0 to maximum speed within few seconds should be your next highest priority.


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## Juany118 (Feb 6, 2018)

#2 is absolutely in my mind.  Running away requires conditioning.


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## Midnight-shadow (Feb 7, 2018)

Are there any defences for dealing with someone grabbing you by the hair as opposed to your clothes? If so I would include those as well. Elbow and knee strikes are also very powerful close-combat techniques that I believe should be taught for self-defence. The great thing about elbow strikes is they can be used in lots of different directions and scenarios where punches and kicks cannot be used.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Okay I have been asked to set up a basic self-defense class.  These are the ideas have currently in mind and would like any suggestions/critiques/additions.  @gpseymour and others who have taught/teach self defense focused stuff are welcome to contribute.
> 
> Here is my base curriculum atm
> 1.  Target Hardening/situational awareness/avoidance.
> ...


How long is the class? That matters quite a bit. Unless I have several classes to work with, I avoid teaching any kind of kick - they simply won't be able to deploy it. I'll teach a knee strike (grab and knee - easy to practice with kicking pads and some heavy bags). I don't personally teach a punch for some of the same reasons - I teach elbows and hammerfist and a palm slap (almost a chop) if I have time, because those are all easier to deploy. I teach those three because of the ranges, and I can have them practice a lot with just a little instruction. If you can teach the punch sufficiently (with enough practice time for them), then go with it. I do prefer the simpler (for quick learning) linear versions of the punch over rotational versions in this situation.

I've gone to spreading out the "non-fight" parts more, to get the concepts better ingrained. I spend a few minutes on them to start the session (or series of sessions), and revisit and expound upon them at specific points (when I can let them have a breather after anything remotely rigorous, since many will be out of shape).

I teach only one block, which is also the transition to knees (and to grappling, if they decide to train beyond that point). I call it a "plow block", and I think there's something close (though probably used differently) in WC. What I teach is both hands up (like covering your head or throwing up an instinctive defense in front of your face), then enter HARD and slam those arms into either side of one shoulder (one somewhere outside the shoulder on the arm, the other somewhere inside the shoulder on the clavicle or neck). It's an easy block to learn, and even if they screw it up (backing off or not moving), it's likely to help deflect a punch.

I do a few situational bits like you're talking about (headlocks, etc.), but I try to re-use things as much as I can. If I can get a lot of the same structure, movement, and strikes in most situations, they get to practice them more. So, every defense I show a biting option. Every defense I show a striking option. Every defense I show a clearing option (pushing them away). Over and over, the same basic approaches, just in different situations, and I point out how it's similar to what we did on the last situation, and the one before that. That even goes for the grab releases - find where to re-use those (what if they grab your hand with the headlock? is there one that has similar mechanics to releasing a hair grab? etc.).

My biggest focus is on trying to build a set of physical responses that are as re-usable as possible. I don't necessarily teach them the best possible defense to each attack, because those are less similar.

Side note: This has also become my approach for building a foundation for new students. I give them a subset of material to work with before we get into the NGA core curriculum.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> There are three things I would add in.
> 
> The first I think you may have, but just didn't write, which is de-escalation. Fits a bit into your 1., but when you're already in the situation how to handle it before it becomes physical.
> 
> ...


Good thoughts - you bring up something I forgot in my long post. With the situational weapons (and discussion of ANY weapons), my focus is on helping them not make it worse. A light stick is useful in my hands (more so in yours, Juany), but not so useful in untrained hands. If they are going to pick up a stick, they need to start hitting and keep it up until they no longer need to worry about themselves. Otherwise, they shouldn't pick it up. If they are going to carry any weapon (gun, taser, spray, hand grenade, or naginata), they need to practice with it to proficiency BEFORE they start carrying. That last sentence goes to your third point - and I try to give them some pointers on what specifically they should practice to continue what they learn. I suggest some of the same exercises I use with new students.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> #2 is absolutely in my mind.  Running away requires conditioning.


Another point I didn't get to in my long post. I do suggest to them that fitness is a component. I tell them that doesn't mean they all need to become athletes (though that would increase their chances), but that improving their strength, endurance, and running speed will be important.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> @kempodisciple since I also study Kali, along with Wing ChunC h am surprised improv weapons didnt pop into my head, thanks for the reminder, and yes, de-escalation is part of number 1, I just didn't write it.  That's a hard balance though because in a robbery, rape etc situation that really isn't an option.  I need to figure out a way to get that across BUT not have people get trapped in that loop.


Even in situations where de-escalation isn't the goal, using the basic strategies gives their mind something to work with that may help reduce freezing in the moment if they have to wait for an opportunity. It keeps the mind actively working, rather than focusing on the fear. I recall reading some research that supported that - I'll see if I can find anything in my notes on it.



> @CB Jones I am definitely going to go into the law but the reason I am trying to avoid specifically addressing deadly weapons is the myth of "you can just shoot them." In my State, and most actually, that isn't the case and I am trying to balance informing people with confusing them.  After 20 years as a cop more than once I have seen self-defense go overboard.  I don't want to contribute to that dynamic.


So, no hand grenades?


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## CB Jones (Feb 7, 2018)

Also, maybe a short discussion about fighting through pain and not giving up.  It's a fight, you are gonna get hurt and injured, but you have to continue to push through that.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 7, 2018)

who is the target audience and how many hours of instruction?

i do not particularly like showing punching in these types of classes.  most often there is not enough time to gain any skill in it.  i prefer palm strikes and hammer fist.   i have people do the hammer fist on hand pads in a downward 12/ 6 type angle. this allows new people to get a feel for what kind of power they can generate.  knees are good and i do stomp kicks.  one idea i use is to use the stomp kick from the ground to the knee of the attacker,(followed by standing up... many BJJ vids on this) also a good co-ed drill is the stomp kick from a sitting position in a chair, holding the chair for support.
as far as running away its not an automatic response as many would think.  i do drills where they need to escape and use a set of cones as a goal line to get to (safety point).  

the thing is there is so much material in this vein of training.  
can you tell me what your doing for target hardening?


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 7, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> *Are there any defences for dealing with someone grabbing you by the hair as opposed to your clothes?* If so I would include those as well. Elbow and knee strikes are also very powerful close-combat techniques that I believe should be taught for self-defence. The great thing about elbow strikes is they can be used in lots of different directions and scenarios where punches and kicks cannot be used.



Yes, in the Hapkido I studied, there are defenses against grabs of clothing and hair.  Teaching them effectively on what is often a one session class may not work too well.

EDIT:  I meant to add that I agree with hammer fists, knees and elbows in general.  But how many to teach and from attacks in which location; you don't want to overwhelm nor shortchange your students.  Some basic break falls from being pushed backwards may not be a bad idea but again, I don't think it would be good in a single session.  It is also fraught with possibilities for injury, but if you have the time, a good way for a student to not be injured in a real fight.  Also, teach kiai and tell them how important it is for preventing having the wind knocked out of you.

How much time did you say you would have?


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 7, 2018)

@Juany118   i know your qualified to teach this stuff but your list makes me wonder a bit about the focus of the class.


Juany118 said:


> the basic point of the class will be "avoid the fight,





Juany118 said:


> Here is my base curriculum atm



note that you put only one line of non physical stuff then TEN lines of text on the physical skills.


Juany118 said:


> 1. Target Hardening/situational awareness/avoidance.
> 2. After that we get to techniques. I am want to keep it simple and so here are my current thoughts.
> A. basic breaks from the most common grabs of clothing
> B. attacking soft targets if you can't break, with hand (say grab groin if in a head lock, bite the arm that is head locking <like I said self defense, not fighting>). With foot, stomping on the instep of the assailants foot.
> ...



this appears to me as a disconnect between what your going to cover and what you THINK your going to cover in the class.
i get the impression that the "avoid" part and awareness is lip service and the focus of the class will be on martial art skills.
there is nothing wrong with MA skills as long as that is your intent.  but i often find if it is not written down and seriously thought out and noted , it doesnt show up in the class.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 7, 2018)

Bit of a derailment, but on the running subject...Absolutely agree that running is useful for self defense/protection. However, whenever I'm at the end of my run, I always have the thought that if someone where to come over now and jump me,
I'M F***ED.


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## JR 137 (Feb 7, 2018)

I just wanted to add to what’s been mentioned already...

If you’re teaching some physical skills, emphasize that they must be practiced on at least a somewhat regular basis.  My CI and I were talking about this topic a few months ago.  People think they take the course for a few hours once, and those physical skills last a lifetime.  I likened it to any MA or sports skill - if I hit a bag for an hour once, it’s not like I’d be able to throw punches just like that the rest of my life.  If I shot free-throws for an hour one time, it’s not like I could line up and perfectly hit a shot months or even years later.

Physical skills need to be kept fresh.


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## Buka (Feb 7, 2018)

Escape from the mount.
Escape from getting grabbed from behind.

How to pick a Divorce Attorney.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

Buka said:


> Escape from the mount.
> Escape from getting grabbed from behind.
> 
> How to pick a Divorce Attorney.


I do tend to NOT cover escape from the mount, but only because I tend to not have enough time to cover it well. It's about the most complex maneuver I would include in this kind of class if I have time.


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## Midnight-shadow (Feb 7, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Yes, in the Hapkido I studied, there are defenses against grabs of clothing and hair.  Teaching them effectively on what is often a one session class may not work too well.
> 
> EDIT:  I meant to add that I agree with hammer fists, knees and elbows in general.  But how many to teach and from attacks in which location; you don't want to overwhelm nor shortchange your students.  Some basic break falls from being pushed backwards may not be a bad idea but again, I don't think it would be good in a single session.  It is also fraught with possibilities for injury, but if you have the time, a good way for a student to not be injured in a real fight.  Also, teach kiai and tell them how important it is for preventing having the wind knocked out of you.
> 
> How much time did you say you would have?



I was under the impression that the OP was making a curriculum for a continuous regular class, not a one-off seminar. I'm personally not a huge fan of one-off seminars as they can't do into as much detail as a regular class, and you lack the practice and experience that comes from training a set of skills every week. If I were teaching elbow strikes for self-defence, I would concentrate one just 2 variations: One for attackers behind you, and one for attackers in front of you. 

When someone grabs you from behind: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





For an attacker in front of you: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Easy to pull off, and very effective, able to at the very least wind your attacker, or if you do it hard enough, can break a few ribs. We practiced the front elbow strike often in class against people holding rugby tackle shields and even holding that you felt the force of the strike penetrating through. It was actually pretty terrifying how strong it was.


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## wab25 (Feb 7, 2018)

Buka said:


> Escape from the mount.


Which mount escape do you teach for self defense? Would you teach a different escape based on whether it was a one time class or a continuous class?


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## drop bear (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Even in situations where de-escalation isn't the goal, using the basic strategies gives their mind something to work with that may help reduce freezing in the moment if they have to wait for an opportunity. It keeps the mind actively working, rather than focusing on the fear. I recall reading some research that supported that - I'll see if I can find anything in my notes on it.
> 
> 
> So, no hand grenades?



Hard to train it is all. Deescalating kind of combines public speaking with the fear of being bashed. It takes a bit to keep the brain snappy.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Hard to train it is all. Deescalating kind of combines public speaking with the fear of being bashed. It takes a bit to keep the brain snappy.


Agreed, and impossible to pressure test in a class.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed, and impossible to pressure test in a class.



Depends... if you can get your hands on a red man suit, or a masochist, you can pressure test most things in a class.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 7, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Depends... if you can get your hands on a red man suit, or a masochist, you can pressure test most things in a class.


i have used the Red Man suit its really bulky and super hot and sweaty inside that suit.. the masochist is a much better option.  lol


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## Buka (Feb 7, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Which mount escape do you teach for self defense? Would you teach a different escape based on whether it was a one time class or a continuous class?



Basic oompa escape and shrimping. If I don't have time to teach both, I ain't teaching.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Depends... if you can get your hands on a red man suit, or a masochist, you can pressure test most things in a class.


Physical stuff, yeah. But not de-escalation.


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## Juany118 (Feb 7, 2018)

@hoshin1600 I know it seems like a disconnect, its just the "non-technique" issues I raised bring paragraphs of definition in my mind.

@gpseymour maybe I wasn't clear but the "punch" was simply a training tool.  It just seems easier for some people to picture throwing a punch.  That would simply be to illustrate how the arm and body should line up in a quick fashion.  The goal being to then show them to do a palm strike/slap (since a WC palm strike is with an open hand and it thus looks very much like a slap.) .As for the kick I felt an oblique kick to the knee/upper leg, wouldn't be that big a hurdle as it's low, really doesnt telegraph, and doesn't compromise yourself that much

@Midnight-shadow and @gpseymour  I had forgotten elbows, especially the rear elbow if an opponent has you clinched from behind, thank you. 

For a block I was going to focus on what can be tied in with the "flinch" response so I was thinking what WC call Bil sau and Gan sau.

The target group is primarily females atm.  In terms of length that is kind of up in the air atm.  The group asking is a cohort from a College and we are still discussing that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 7, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> @hoshin1600 I know it seems like a disconnect, its just the "non-technique" issues I raised bring paragraphs of definition in my mind.
> 
> @gpseymour maybe I wasn't clear but the "punch" was simply a training tool.  It just seems easier for some people to picture throwing a punch.  That would simply be to illustrate how the arm and body should line up in a quick fashion.  The goal being to then show them to do a palm strike/slap (since a WC palm strike is with an open hand and it thus looks very much like a slap.) .As for the kick I felt an oblique kick to the knee/upper leg, wouldn't be that big a hurdle as it's low, really doesnt telegraph, and doesn't compromise yourself that much
> 
> ...


For clarification, is it a continuous class, or a one time seminar?


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## drop bear (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed, and impossible to pressure test in a class.



Yeah. I was thinking maybe do it from a public speaking set up, so you stand up in front of everyone and deescalate someone else from across the room.

Just to put the screws in.

If you look at sales training they run through these flow chart style defense's. Which I found worked best until someone is comfortable with just talking.


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## drop bear (Feb 7, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i have used the Red Man suit its really bulky and super hot and sweaty inside that suit.. the masochist is a much better option.  lol


 

Yeah not a fan.


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## Juany118 (Feb 7, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> For clarification, is it a continuous class, or a one time seminar?



My suggestion to them is a weekly class that lasts 2 months, so roughly 8 two hour days.  Some of the people in the cohort are behind that.  Others are looking for a Seminar Format.  If we do that though I am hoping to get them on board with a weekend, no less than 5 hours "in class" for a total of 10 hours minimum over the course of the weekend.  That's one of the reasons why I am trying to structure it around "avoid, respond, run" vs heavily focused on fighting.


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## drop bear (Feb 7, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> @gpseymour maybe I wasn't clear but the "punch" was simply a training tool. It just seems easier for some people to picture throwing a punch. That would simply be to illustrate how the arm and body should line up in a quick fashion. The goal being to then show them to do a palm strike/slap (since a WC palm strike is with an open hand and it thus looks very much like a slap.) .As for the kick I felt an oblique kick to the knee/upper leg, wouldn't be that big a hurdle as it's low, really doesnt telegraph, and doesn't compromise yourself that much


You will get more bang for your buck throwing punches than open hand shots. Regardless of the risk of a broken hand.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> @hoshin1600 I know it seems like a disconnect, its just the "non-technique" issues I raised bring paragraphs of definition in my mind.
> 
> @gpseymour maybe I wasn't clear but the "punch" was simply a training tool.  It just seems easier for some people to picture throwing a punch.  That would simply be to illustrate how the arm and body should line up in a quick fashion.  The goal being to then show them to do a palm strike/slap (since a WC palm strike is with an open hand and it thus looks very much like a slap.) .As for the kick I felt an oblique kick to the knee/upper leg, wouldn't be that big a hurdle as it's low, really doesnt telegraph, and doesn't compromise yourself that much
> 
> ...


Sounds well thought out. When you know the length, I’ll be happy to share more thoughts about timing and pace.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You will get more bang for your buck throwing punches than open hand shots. Regardless of the risk of a broken hand.


I’ve had mixed results with new folks. Timid people are somehow more able to put intent into a slap or palm strike in early training.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> My suggestion to them is a weekly class that lasts 2 months, so roughly 8 two hour days.  Some of the people in the cohort are behind that.  Others are looking for a Seminar Format.  If we do that though I am hoping to get them on board with a weekend, no less than 5 hours "in class" for a total of 10 hours minimum over the course of the weekend.  That's one of the reasons why I am trying to structure it around "avoid, respond, run" vs heavily focused on fighting.


I prefer the series, as well. There’s an easy cycle to the sessions, a chance to review, and better distributed learning. They take more time to do, but offer more real value.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 7, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> That's one of the reasons why I am trying to structure it around "avoid, respond, run" vs heavily focused on fighting.


i was going to suggest  the Homeland security program  "Hide, run, fight" .  you can find some info on it at their web sight.  
 there is a corresponding video if you have the ability to show it.  the basic outline is to show the video and talk about law enforcement"s role to find the assailant and stop the threat ,not to help those in need. that is for after the threat is gone and for EMT to deal with.





is avoid , respond, run the same ?


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## jks9199 (Feb 7, 2018)

Legal issues -- as in how not to go to jail.  If you're teaching physical skills, you need to teach them when and how to handle it after the fact.

You're teaching college age girls.  Who is most likely to attack them?  In what manner?  Do you know?  Can you explain it to them in a way that is going to shatter their Disneyland mindset (Marc Macyoung's term... and the best I've seen for it.) and prepare them to deal with what's going to happen?


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## Juany118 (Feb 7, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i was going to suggest  the Homeland security program  "Hide, run, fight" .  you can find some info on it at their web sight.
> there is a corresponding video if you have the ability to show it.  the basic outline is to show the video and talk about law enforcement"s role to find the assailant and stop the threat ,not to help those in need. that is for after the threat is gone and for EMT to deal with.
> 
> 
> ...



Seeing the video made me chuckle.  My Sifu's day job is running a consultancy services that focuses a lot on threat management.  We had a long talk one day about how his active shooter training is run, fight, hide.  His rtionale being that when you go into a place with high body counts the greatest concentration of death seems to be the people that hid in closets, under tables etc.

It is similar regardless.  To better explain.

That said the idea is very similar it's just that avoiding is going to be about avoiding the situation in the first place by using proper planning, situational awareness etc.


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## Juany118 (Feb 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You will get more bang for your buck throwing punches than open hand shots. Regardless of the risk of a broken hand.



You aren't using the whole hand though.  It appears to be a slap but in reality you are just using the heel of your palm, especially the "meaty" portion "under" the pinky.  I don't know why WC keeps the fingers out, but striking with that small surface area causes a goodly amount of damage, not just because of physics but because it can fit into small areas like the "KO" spot under the orbital.  I also like it, for self defense applications, because it gives a change for the fingers to get in the eyes, or slapping on the ear etc.

As such my thought process was
1. What still does goodly damage.
2. Minimizes potential injury when striking a hard target.  Not just broken fingers but wrist injuries due to poor alignment, lacerations from teeth etc.
3. Also has flexibility/side benefits beyond the full force impact of the strike.

Since this is about creating an opening to escape vs explicitly going for a KO, incidental striking to the eyes, ears etc can be a good distraction.  This isn't to say punches aren't effective, of course they are, the thing is with the amount of time (or lack there of) I will have to work with, I am trying to keep to only a few techniques and have said techniques firmly in the "KISS" realm.


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## Juany118 (Feb 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Sounds well thought out. When you know the length, I’ll be happy to share more thoughts about timing and pace.



Thanks!!!



gpseymour said:


> I’ve had mixed results with new folks. Timid people are somehow more able to put intent into a slap or palm strike in early training.



There is that too.  I think part of the timidity is the fear of injury.  I like, and agree with, much of what is said here


> "*The Plus Side of the Punch*
> 
> • With a good punch you can knock out your opponent.
> 
> ...



The only thing I would say I don't agree with here is that I have seen KOs from a properly executed palm strike.

(Source... Open Vs. Closed Hand Striking)


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 7, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> D. the foot "strike" would be the oblique kick to the knee/thigh.


This may be a little advance for a self-defense class.  I say this from what I experienced when I tried to teach it to fellow martial artist.  Originally I thought it would be something easy for people to pick up, but it really isn't.  Most people tend to golf swing the leg with this type of kick.  The fact that we normally see Jon Jones do this kick in MMA is probably a good sign about the difficulty.

It's a simple kick in concept but in execution and application it may be too difficult. I even see some Wing Chun practitioners have difficulty with it.


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## Juany118 (Feb 7, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> This may be a little advance for a self-defense class.  I say this from what I experienced when I tried to teach it to fellow martial artist.  Originally I thought it would be something easy for people to pick up, but it really isn't.  Most people tend to golf swing the leg with this type of kick.  The fact that we normally see Jon Jones do this kick in MMA is probably a good sign about the difficulty.
> 
> It's a simple kick in concept but in execution and application it may be too difficult. I even see some Wing Chun practitioners have difficulty with it.




That is something to consider.  My hope was that, since I will be dealing with neophytes, they would be a blank slate in regards to kicking methods.  

At least in my own experience, when I have had issues learning techniques, it was more a matter of muscle memory from previous training getting in the way.  As an example when I first started WC, if we were doing a drill with lap sau, instead of simply "sticking" I would find myself grabbing because my previous training got in the way and I was instinctively preparing for a lock/take down due to muscle memory.


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## drop bear (Feb 7, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> You aren't using the whole hand though.  It appears to be a slap but in reality you are just using the heel of your palm, especially the "meaty" portion "under" the pinky.  I don't know why WC keeps the fingers out, but striking with that small surface area causes a goodly amount of damage, not just because of physics but because it can fit into small areas like the "KO" spot under the orbital.  I also like it, for self defense applications, because it gives a change for the fingers to get in the eyes, or slapping on the ear etc.
> 
> As such my thought process was
> 1. What still does goodly damage.
> ...



You can put a knuckle in to someone's eye though.

From my experience open hand strikes work for people with either hard punches or big meaty hands.

Smaller hands with less pep can at least cut people up even if they are not knocking people out. Which you can also use for making space.

Otherwise most people feel more confident hitting. And you want to go with techniques that they are going to have some faith in using.


----------



## Juany118 (Feb 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You can put a knuckle in to someone's eye though.
> 
> From my experience open hand strikes work for people with either hard punches or big meaty hands.
> 
> ...


Well, I suppose we will have to disagree on what people feel more.comfortable with.  Most instructors seem to agree that neophytes find it easier to "palm" than punch properly and that the training to palm correctly, vs punch, is faster for this same group.   Don't forget, this is a limited duration self defense classes, not planning a curriculum for a "regular" school. 

I think you also underestimate how even a small hand can do a powerful palm strike, it's simple physics acutally.  The smaller the surface area used to apply energy increases the force of impact.  That's why some arts actually have their punch trained to have not the whole fist, but rather only 3, even only 2, knuckles.  

While it is a different type of hand strike than the one I am familiar with I think this video goes to the usefulness of a palm strike in "quick" self defense training scenarios.


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## Midnight-shadow (Feb 8, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> That is something to consider.  My hope was that, since I will be dealing with neophytes, they would be a blank slate in regards to kicking methods.
> 
> At least in my own experience, when I have had issues learning techniques, it was more a matter of muscle memory from previous training getting in the way.  As an example when I first started WC, if we were doing a drill with lap sau, instead of simply "sticking" I would find myself grabbing because my previous training got in the way and I was instinctively preparing for a lock/take down due to muscle memory.



You could always go with a snap-kick to the groin instead. Much easier to pull off and it doesn't require as much accuracy as the oblique kick to discourage your target.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Otherwise most people feel more confident hitting


Correction,,most men feel more comfortable.  This class at the moment is aimed at 18yo school girls.
Totally different emotional mind set and abilities. Many cannot even envision them selves hitting someone or even trying to hurt someone. Not all but some.


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## Juany118 (Feb 8, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Correction,,most men feel more comfortable.  This class at the moment is aimed at 18yo school girls.
> Totally different emotional mind set and abilities. Many cannot even envision them selves hitting someone or even trying to hurt someone. Not all but some.



That is indeed my thinking.  That said just one correction.  The cohort is actually mostly 20 something's (and a couple 30 something's) as they are Grad students.  This is being set up because my girlfriend is actually part of the cohort.  I started teaching her some basics and after speaking with her compatriots they expressed interest as well.  

The dynamic you are noting is also why I am looking at the basic blocks/covers to be ones that exploit natural flinch responses.  I am trying to have as much of the course as possible take advantage of instinctive responses.

On a side note I am actually interested in any input they may have on the prevention/de-escalation portion.  They are all Psychology Grad students and I think they might have some interesting input.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Correction,,most men feel more comfortable.  This class at the moment is aimed at 18yo school girls.
> Totally different emotional mind set and abilities. Many cannot even envision them selves hitting someone or even trying to hurt someone. Not all but some.



When girls actually fight. Not training.


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## Juany118 (Feb 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> When girls actually fight. Not training.



There is an old saying though "train like you fight" and when, at most, the course will have a total of 16 hours of training exploiting natural instinct is the most efficient way to get the foundation they will build upon with their own practice I would think.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> There is an old saying though "train like you fight" and when, at most, the course will have a total of 16 hours of training exploiting natural instinct is the most efficient way to get the foundation they will build upon with their own practice I would think.



Yeah and almost nobody feels comfortable throwing open hand when the chips are down. 

Unless you are really confident with the technique.


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## Juany118 (Feb 8, 2018)

I really think you are projecting.  If you look at virtually any self defense school, like the KM one I showed earlier, this one: Fist or palm, which is the better strike for self-defense?, this one: Jiu-jitsu Sensei: Open Hand Strikes vs. Punching with a Closed Fist or countless others, say that, especially for women, a palm strike is often the better choice, especially if you are striking the head for a host of reasons that I won't repeat because I think the articles speak for themselves. That is also my personal experience.  As one example, I have seen people become "combat ineffective" because the opponent zigged and the punch meant for the nose hit the forehead instead.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 8, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> This may be a little advance for a self-defense class.  I say this from what I experienced when I tried to teach it to fellow martial artist.  Originally I thought it would be something easy for people to pick up, but it really isn't.  Most people tend to golf swing the leg with this type of kick.  The fact that we normally see Jon Jones do this kick in MMA is probably a good sign about the difficulty.
> 
> It's a simple kick in concept but in execution and application it may be too difficult. I even see some Wing Chun practitioners have difficulty with it.


Since I don't teach that kick, I can't speak from experience with it, but that's been my experience with a basic front kick. It was simple for me to learn, but seems not so with most folks. The only kick I've taught that seems to be easy for most people is an upward instep kick (the one usually taught for the big groin punt), but it has limited application (that groin punt, and kicks to the upper body when you have managed to force them that far off structure). I just don't do kicks in short-term training anymore, and actually hold them a bit later in my curriculum than I used to.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Feb 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah and almost nobody feels comfortable throwing open hand when the chips are down.
> 
> Unless you are really confident with the technique.


its obvious you do not have a lot of experience working with women in the public venue. a large majority have trouble even making a fist due to long nails and such.  if your working with MMA women in the gym, yeah they have adapted to the needs of the class so they cut their nails and things like that.
striking for many women does not come natural thus "girl fights" slap a lot and pull hair.  (appologies to those who i offended but its true)


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## Juany118 (Feb 8, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> its obvious you do not have a lot of experience working with women in the public venue. a large majority have trouble even making a fist due to long nails and such.  if your working with MMA women in the gym, yeah they have adapted to the needs of the class so they cut their nails and things like that.
> striking for many women does not come natural thus "girl fights" slap a lot and pull hair.  (appologies to those who i offended but its true)



Not only nails.  Women will often wear rings, sometimes multiple, that can make forming a correct fist problematic.  Then you add in the fact that even for a male forming a "solid" fist is actually a learned skill.  

That's why, for pure self defense (stun em and run) training I think the palm makes more sense.  You just have to teach how to apply the energy.  You don't need to worry about proper fist structure or wrist alignment.  You would use the proper fist in a "I want to take em out" because it can be more effective on soft targets but "I want to take em out" isn't the point of self defense imo.  Self defense, if the non-combative elements fail, is about "stun and run."


----------



## oftheherd1 (Feb 8, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> You could always go with a snap-kick to the groin instead. Much easier to pull off and it doesn't require as much accuracy as the oblique kick to discourage your target.



Effectively used, it can be a good tool.  Personally, I have always taught not to rely on it too much.  Whether going for a man's gonads, or symphysis pubis, it only takes a shift of one leg to the inside, to cover both.  Also, there are some men who can take a shot to the gonads and quickly shake it off.  I always tell people to go for a knee.  I think that is an easier target, not as commonly protected, doesn't require as much speed, and harder to recover from.

Of course, with either kick, speed and accuracy are important.

I understand not everyone will agree.


----------



## Juany118 (Feb 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Since I don't teach that kick, I can't speak from experience with it, but that's been my experience with a basic front kick. It was simple for me to learn, but seems not so with most folks. The only kick I've taught that seems to be easy for most people is an upward instep kick (the one usually taught for the big groin punt), but it has limited application (that groin punt, and kicks to the upper body when you have managed to force them that far off structure). I just don't do kicks in short-term training anymore, and actually hold them a bit later in my curriculum than I used to.



You both maybe right.  I was thinking that kick would be useful simply as a maintaining distance tool.  I think I might use my girlfriend as an experiment.  She has no formal training at all and often jokes how a hippy like her ended up with a cop.  I figure if I can teach her the kick I can teach anyone.  If I can't, then I need to think about another "distance tool."


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Since I don't teach that kick, I can't speak from experience with it, but that's been my experience with a basic front kick. It was simple for me to learn, but seems not so with most folks. The only kick I've taught that seems to be easy for most people is an upward instep kick (the one usually taught for the big groin punt), but it has limited application (that groin punt, and kicks to the upper body when you have managed to force them that far off structure). I just don't do kicks in short-term training anymore, and actually hold them a bit later in my curriculum than I used to.


  I've seen the same thing with the front kick as well.  I think there has to be a basic athletic ability that people normally get through play as a child.  If they miss out on that as a kid then it becomes more challenging as an adult. 




hoshin1600 said:


> a large majority have trouble even making a fist due to long nails and such.


I had a woman try a kung fu class.  She enjoyed the class and she had long nails.  It wasn't a problem for me as an instructor, but she asked me to be honest with her, when I she told me that she really want to learn how to use kung fu.  She told me she likes Wing Chun and I told her that wing chun sucks lol.    Just kidding.  But she did say that she wanted to be able to defend herself.  She saw my reaction to her statement and asked me to be honest.  I told her tthere is no way she could make a proper fist with nails that long and as a result many of the punching techniques would be useless. Then she asked me should she cut her nails (which were very nice).  I told her only if she wants to be able to use the punches.  That was the last day that I saw her.

Some women take pride in their nails and spend a lot of money on them, so cutting their nails for a fight that may never happen, tends to be a bad selling point.  Women who are serious about their self-defense will cut their nails so they can learn and then grow them out later once they learn the techniques.  Many who cut their nails tend to keep the nails at a decent length because they enjoy punching once they get fairly good at it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 8, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> You both maybe right.  I was thinking that kick would be useful simply as a maintaining distance tool.  I think I might use my girlfriend as an experiment.  She has no formal training at all and often jokes how a hippy like her ended up with a cop.  I figure if I can teach her the kick I can teach anyone.  If I can't, then I need to think about another "distance tool."


As someone else pointed out, the stomp kick from the ground is pretty simple and useful. It's the second thing I teach from the ground (the first is a pretty simple variation of a single-leg takedown from kneeling), and the first thing I'll teach from the ground in a short format. I teach it with the aim of taking the leg from under them to gain space to get up. Later, that integrates with other groundwork.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 8, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've seen the same thing with the front kick as well.  I think there has to be a basic athletic ability that people normally get through play as a child.  If they miss out on that as a kid then it becomes more challenging as an adult.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everyone has their priorities. To join my program, nails have to be cut short - more an issue for grappling, obviously. That does limit who will join.


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## JR 137 (Feb 8, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> She has no formal training at all and often jokes how a hippy like her ended up with a cop.


Getting born in the state of Mississippi 
Papa was a copper, and her mama was a hippie

Please don’t name your daughter Dani California.  It won’t end well.  Trust me.  

Edit:  oh yeah, your experiment would be cool.  Let us know how it goes.  In the name of research and all.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 8, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> You both maybe right.  I was thinking that kick would be useful simply as a maintaining distance tool.  I think I might use my girlfriend as an experiment.  She has no formal training at all and often jokes how a hippy like her ended up with a cop.  I figure if I can teach her the kick I can teach anyone.  If I can't, then I need to think about another "distance tool."


 It's more of a question of how long do you have to teach her.  I know people who have taken martial arts for almost 4 years and they still can't kick correctly.  The only thing that I've seen truly work is footwork. Everyone makes improvement with footwork.  For me personally, it's my footwork that keeps me out of a lot trouble.  Footwork should begin the moment a person realizes danger closing in. 

I train both pre-attack footwork (avoiding or drawing out the time it takes for someone to attack), defensive footwork (defending against a sudden attack), escaping foot work (escaping an attack).  attacking footwork (fighting back).  These range in difficulty but all are important. 

The best example of pre-attack footwork is how animals leave the scene before the predator actually gets a chance to attack.  It involves awareness and footwork.  Sometimes the footwork is running right away and other times it's more subtle where a person flees without looking like they are fleeing.  To the attacker is should appear as if his prey some how keeps moving out of range.  The difference is that the "moving out of range" is done on purpose and not by chance.

A human example of this, isn't done so much for threats but is often done to avoid homeless people and drug users walking around begging for money.  This is something you may see if you work in the inner city.  People will often cross the street at first sight and from a distance.  This behavior should be applied to threats.  Don't wait until the threat is in the personal space.  Address it from a distance, use your feet to move your body out of harms way before harm exists.  People tend to ignore the warning signs, when it comes to self-defense.  Denial usually sets in, and the attackers will often use that period of denial to close the gap. 

Here's a real life example: Her body naturally picks up the warning signs (you'll see her give a startle movement) but she ignores it, or doesn't process the signs as danger.  She also gives away distance by cutting that corner too close.






Here's another one. 





Here's the way my mind works.  If someone triggers those type of responses in me then I immediately try to create some distance.  The distance helps with 2 things.

Tells me if you are a real threat or if I'm overreacting
Creates better distance for me to react to and defend against an attack.
In the case of the old man, he could have simply move to the other side of one of those cars until the guy left the area or place the parking meter between him the the guy he assumed was going to attack him.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Everyone has their priorities. To join my program, nails have to be cut short - more an issue for grappling, obviously. That does limit who will join.


 What? You're telling me you don't like chucks of flesh scratched off you and to have multiple scars from someone who isn't considerate enough to cut their nails?  Man, you are strange lol.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 8, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> What? You're telling me you don't like chucks of flesh scratched off you and to have multiple scars from someone who isn't considerate enough to cut their nails?  Man, you are strange lol.


I know. A personal weakness.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> I really think you are projecting.  If you look at virtually any self defense school, like the KM one I showed earlier, this one: Fist or palm, which is the better strike for self-defense?, this one: Jiu-jitsu Sensei: Open Hand Strikes vs. Punching with a Closed Fist or countless others, say that, especially for women, a palm strike is often the better choice, especially if you are striking the head for a host of reasons that I won't repeat because I think the articles speak for themselves. That is also my personal experience.  As one example, I have seen people become "combat ineffective" because the opponent zigged and the punch meant for the nose hit the forehead instead.



Yeah look I am projecting this idea. Women who win fights generally throw punches.

Self defence schools don't always reflect reality.

And if you throw a palm heel and it hits at a bad angle you can wristlock yourself so you still have to be careful where you land the thing.

Otherwise if you are Baz Rutten palm heel all you want. But he was also one of the hardest strikers in the UFC.

I work with a girl at the moment who is just unstable and on a bond for assaults at the moment. She wouldn't even dream of throwing open hands.

She does do well in street fights though.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 8, 2018)

I came across this video which covers exactly what I was talking about footwork before the attack.  What he talks about at the end is how to read the environment. 






Two examples of a blank slate instructor and a realistic understanding of an.  Had he ever been in an situation with multiple attackers or played "man on the bottom"  as a kid.  (kids game where boys will try to pile on top of one person, until that person can't escape or whines like a little cry baby. lol. )  Then he would know that his scenario is not realistic and the techniques that are being used aren't realistic in the context of trying to maintain your footing.  You don't want your self-defense students to walk away with a lack of understanding of the reality of the dangers you refer to.





This is a better approach





The reason I show this is not to pick on the instructors but to highlight that they were probably students once and what you see is what they learned as students about self-defense.


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## Juany118 (Feb 8, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I came across this video which covers exactly what I was talking about footwork before the attack.  What he talks about at the end is how to read the environment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Environmental awareness is actually a big part of my situational awareness portion.  Street lights?  Broken sidewalks or ones in good condition?  How clean are the streets themselves?  Broken glass? This aren't only important in terms of if a fight starts but many can be red flags that you should have your head on a swivel.


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## CB Jones (Feb 8, 2018)

This is pretty much all you need to teach.






If nothing else you should include the cucumber part.


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## Juany118 (Feb 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah look I am projecting this idea. Women who win fights generally throw punches.
> 
> Self defence schools don't always reflect reality.
> 
> ...



Your talking about those who know/train to punch though.  Most fights I have seen, when people aren't trained, man or woman, the winner was the one who didn't injure their hand/hands and/or wrist by not knowing how to punch.  Once that happens you are fudged and, simple biology, an untrained woman, due to less dense bone structure then add on longer nails, jewelry, etc is far more likely to injure themselves punching.

This is not about creating a fighter.  It's not about "taking out the opponent" for the win. Its about giving people tools, in a relatively short period of time, that allow their definition of "winning" being they created an opening that allowed them to escape.  Run to the nearest bodega, dial 911, to the taxi etc.  Part if that is limiting self injury.

I think we have very different views of what self defense is.  Maybe that's the problem.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> This is pretty much all you need to teach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Make sure you have a lawyer on stand by lol.  That particular scene always gets me.  So the victim has 2 free hands in which to rip the genitals, but the preferred option the victim takes is to use the mouth. lol.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Most fights I have seen, when people aren't trained, man or woman, the winner was the one who didn't injure their hand/hands and/or wrist by not knowing how to punch.



Really?


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> This is not about creating a fighter. It's not about "taking out the opponent" for the win. Its about giving people tools, in a relatively short period of time, that allow their definition of "winning" being they created an opening that allowed them to escape. Run to the nearest bodega, dial 911, to the taxi etc. Part if that is limiting self injury.



So you are going to model your system off women who loose fights.

I understand the open hand stuff then.


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## Juany118 (Feb 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Really?



Yeah really, when hand injuries we're involved of course.  The intact person took advantage of the fact their opponent couldn't hit them anymore.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Yeah really, when hand injuries we're involved of course.  The intact person took advantage of the fact their opponent couldn't hit them anymore.



Ok here is a bunch of fights. With a bunch of really bad punching technique. There is not a single case where a hand injury changed the outcome.






Can you show me where these fight stopping hand injuries happen at all. Let alone is this common practice.


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## Juany118 (Feb 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> So you are going to model your system off women who loose fights.
> 
> I understand the open hand stuff then.



Now you are just being obtuse. First I corrected myself and clarified that it was if/when hands wrists were injured.  I am basing it off of the totality of circumstances. At Max a 16 hour course with specific goals.  I am not going to tell the women "change your lifestyle and cut your nails and lose the rings." I am not going to waste time teaching them how to simply make a fist and then properly punch.  That would take up the entire course and be a waste of time because just knowing how to punch isn't self defense

Facts...

Palm strikes work.

People can win, and have won, fights with palm strikes.  All you have to do is look at old Bas Rutten videos and watch how many KOs he got with a palm strike to the head.

Why did Bas do that? they werent wearing gloves at the time and a broken hand on a skulls means he will lose.

Palms are easier to teach to someone with no training (no need to train proper fist formation and wrist structure), though potentially harder to teach someone who already is a trained punched.  A palm can also be taught in a shorter amount of time. 

Yeah sure if I was starting my own dojo I would teach punches, hand conditioning etc.  This isn't that kind of thing.  It's a 10-16 hour self defense course, not setting up a martial arts school man.


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## Juany118 (Feb 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Ok here is a bunch of fights. With a bunch of really bad punching technique. There is not a single case where a hand injury changed the outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay I saw slapping, hair pulling, grappling, someone slapping their hand sideways with a closed fist (that was interesting) some kicking. Pikachu was the only one that even tried to really punch and she connected solidly once.  Which btw is another advantage of a palm strike (please see the links I already posted) a punch is actually harder to connect with properly as well. The speed bag test is a good demonstration of this.

So the video was a non sequitur and can actually be argued to prove my point.  If you don't train to punch you can't and if you don't have time to train to punch learn something else. 

Cheers


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## Buka (Feb 9, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> This is pretty much all you need to teach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's 11:43 t night here. That was the topper of a really good day.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah look I am projecting this idea. Women who win fights generally throw punches.
> 
> Self defence schools don't always reflect reality.
> 
> ...


For me, it's a matter of what they can learn quickly. Starting students (for me) don't get punches right away, so I equip them with fast-development tools first. What I do for them is similar to what I do in short courses. I personally much prefer punches for most of my strikes, and open my hands to hit hard targets hard. My students tend eventually to follow that same preference (as you'd expect), but I start them out with what works more quickly most often.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I came across this video which covers exactly what I was talking about footwork before the attack.  What he talks about at the end is how to read the environment.


Yep. I think we (people in general) often don't want to seem scared or nervous, so we don't adequately listen to that little alert going off in our brains. We walk past someone thinking, "Something about that guy bothers me." Yet we don't change our behavior often enough. Small changes like you're talking about are pretty easy to make, once you decide to make them. Eventually, they become not-quite-conscious reactions.



> Two examples of a blank slate instructor and a realistic understanding of an.  Had he ever been in an situation with multiple attackers or played "man on the bottom"  as a kid.  (kids game where boys will try to pile on top of one person, until that person can't escape or whines like a little cry baby. lol. )  Then he would know that his scenario is not realistic and the techniques that are being used aren't realistic in the context of trying to maintain your footing.  You don't want your self-defense students to walk away with a lack of understanding of the reality of the dangers you refer to.


This is the kind of stuff that drives me batty. That kind of thing can be useful as a study of principles of working against structure, but it's too often demonstrated and trained as a solution to multiple attackers. Those guys aren't attacking (they are standing still, no intent in their actions). Even if one of them was, it'd be a Hollywood situation (henchmen holding the hero while he gets punched), not a likely attack.



> This is a better approach
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like that last guy quite a bit. I try to take that same kind of skeptical view of the typical SD techniques. I know a few I learned that I'm fairly sure wouldn't work on a drunk guy if he can still stand without help.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Environmental awareness is actually a big part of my situational awareness portion.  Street lights?  Broken sidewalks or ones in good condition?  How clean are the streets themselves?  Broken glass? This aren't only important in terms of if a fight starts but many can be red flags that you should have your head on a swivel.


And, unfortunately, damned hard to really train in the dojo. We can create some bits to help develop the habit, but mostly it's on the student to work on this.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Now you are just being obtuse. First I corrected myself and clarified that it was if/when hands wrists were injured.  I am basing it off of the totality of circumstances. At Max a 16 hour course with specific goals.  I am not going to tell the women "change your lifestyle and cut your nails and lose the rings." I am not going to waste time teaching them how to simply make a fist and then properly punch.  That would take up the entire course and be a waste of time because just knowing how to punch isn't self defense
> 
> Facts...
> 
> ...


The nails-and-rings thing is a huge consideration with short courses, and for SD training in general (for me, only the rings, since I require they cut their nails short). Punching someone while wearing thin rings is likely to be as damaging to the puncher as the punchee. With big, chunky rings, it's less of an issue. There may be bad bruising, but it's unlikely to affect them during the fight.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Ok here is a bunch of fights. With a bunch of really bad punching technique. There is not a single case where a hand injury changed the outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i think you inadvertently proved our point. from the women (there was a guy fight with punches)  99 % were not punches but hammer fists.  different mechanics different strike.  i was advocating to teach that exact strike, the hammer fist and i believe Juany was as well.  it is a natural instinctual weapon and takes no training to do but training will make it better.  you cannot show a video full of hammer fists to prove a point about boxing style punches.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 9, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> This is pretty much all you need to teach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i couldnt even watch it  !!!  this is everything that makes my head explode.  ill have a brain aneurysm just from the typed font and the guy talking on what to do.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i couldnt even watch it  !!!  this is everything that makes my head explode.  ill have a brain aneurysm just from the typed font and the guy talking on what to do.


Stuff like this makes me start to rant like @drop bear. And that's his job, damnit!


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## Juany118 (Feb 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> And, unfortunately, damned hard to really train in the dojo. We can create some bits to help develop the habit, but mostly it's on the student to work on this.



True.  The idea is to get them to think about it.  Since the University is an "island" in a not so great City, and the Grad student housing is an apartment complex off Campus, I am hoping that will "click" for them more easily than with others.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> True.  The idea is to get them to think about it.  Since the University is an "island" in a not so great City, and the Grad student housing is an apartment complex off Campus, I am hoping that will "click" for them more easily than with others.


Some things (like this), part of what I want to do is "give them permission" to follow this instinct. I hope it feels somewhat less foolish when they've been told it's a good idea, so they're less inhibited about crossing the street when something looks off.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 9, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i think you inadvertently proved our point. from the women (there was a guy fight with punches)  99 % were not punches but hammer fists.  different mechanics different strike.  i was advocating to teach that exact strike, the hammer fist and i believe Juany was as well.  it is a natural instinctual weapon and takes no training to do but training will make it better.  you cannot show a video full of hammer fists to prove a point about boxing style punches.



That fights are decided with who broke their hands and couldn't continue.

No I think that is blatant fantasy.

And juanny wants to do palm strikes because apparently you can't break your hand. Which is also fantasy.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> That fights are decided with who broke their hands and couldn't continue.
> 
> No I think that is blatant fantasy.
> 
> And juanny wants to do palm strikes because apparently you can't break your hand. Which is also fantasy.


He did clarify that he was talking specifically about fights that included a hand injury. I've not seen much evidence either way. I suspect some hand injuries are "game over" for some people, but not all, and some people seem to be less limited by them. Probably a difference in pain tolerance and experience with pain.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The nails-and-rings thing is a huge consideration with short courses, and for SD training in general (for me, only the rings, since I require they cut their nails short). Punching someone while wearing thin rings is likely to be as damaging to the puncher as the punchee. With big, chunky rings, it's less of an issue. There may be bad bruising, but it's unlikely to affect them during the fight.



I wouldn't change a fighting system to accommodate someone's personal idiocy. What if they have high heels? Well we had just better change the course.

You would wind up compromising yourself in to nothing.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> He did clarify that he was talking specifically about fights that included a hand injury. I've not seen much evidence either way. I suspect some hand injuries are "game over" for some people, but not all, and some people seem to be less limited by them. Probably a difference in pain tolerance and experience with pain.



Going to suggest head injury is a greater deciding factor. And if you are not causing any you are going to have a bad day.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I wouldn't change a fighting system to accommodate someone's personal idiocy. What if they have high heels? Well we had just better change the course.
> 
> You would wind up compromising yourself in to nothing.


You teach what's likely to help the audience, not what you want to teach. If some are likely to wear small rings and have long nails, you don't teach them something that makes those a bigger liability.

Same for teaching what folks can learn quickly, when they aren't likely to train long-term.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Going to suggest head injury is a greater deciding factor. And if you are not causing any you are going to have a bad day.


Most folks aren't going to hit hard enough to cause head injury after a total of a few hours of training, unless they were already hitting hard coming in.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Most folks aren't going to hit hard enough to cause head injury after a total of a few hours of training, unless they were already hitting hard coming in.



And open hand is only going to make that harder to achieve.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You teach what's likely to help the audience, not what you want to teach. If some are likely to wear small rings and have long nails, you don't teach them something that makes those a bigger liability.
> 
> Same for teaching what folks can learn quickly, when they aren't likely to train long-term.



Of course that system that will work without any time, ajustment and effort.

I love those.


----------



## Juany118 (Feb 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> That fights are decided with who broke their hands and couldn't continue.
> 
> No I think that is blatant fantasy.
> 
> And juanny wants to do palm strikes because apparently you can't break your hand. Which is also fantasy.


Hey look revisionist history.  I said untrained punching risks injury to hands.  When people have injured their hands they lose.

You then show a video claiming it proves that punches are dangerous BUT 99% of the strikes aren't punches.  So the fantasy is yours.


----------



## Juany118 (Feb 9, 2018)

Since you like videos so much though here is a video where some MMA people with far more knowledge than us prove my point.

Bas saying a trained fighter against ONE opponent should punch for body shots but decribes how he gets knock outs and why punches to the head are dangerous...






And this is his partner speaking to why you need to condition your hands...






There are many others btw.  If you want to say Bas is clueless, good luck with that.

So MMA guys also talking about the danger of punches to the heah, and if you are going to do it condition.  Something a short self defense course doesn't allow for.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> And open hand is only going to make that harder to achieve.


Not so long as they are unable to use a fist well. A really bad and weak punch is far worse than a halfway decent slap.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Of course that system that will work without any time, ajustment and effort.
> 
> I love those.


I’m not even sure what you’re on about now.


----------



## Juany118 (Feb 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Not so long as they are unable to use a fist well. A really bad and weak punch is far worse than a halfway decent slap.



Or a solid palm strike.


----------



## Juany118 (Feb 9, 2018)

Apologies the first video I linked above was somehow broken.  Here is one with sound..


----------



## drop bear (Feb 9, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Since you like videos so much though here is a video where some MMA people with far more knowledge than us prove my point.
> 
> Bas saying a trained fighter against ONE opponent should punch for body shots but decribes how he gets knock outs and why punches to the head are dangerous...
> 
> ...



Baz Rutten is one of the hardest strikers in MMA.

The people in your course won't be.


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## drop bear (Feb 9, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Hey look revisionist history.  I said untrained punching risks injury to hands.  When people have injured their hands they lose.
> 
> You then show a video claiming it proves that punches are dangerous BUT 99% of the strikes aren't punches.  So the fantasy is yours.



You said.

JUANY118 SAID: ↑
Most fights I have seen, when people aren't trained, man or woman, the winner was the one who didn't injure their hand/hands and/or wrist by not knowing how to punch.

Now you claim 99% of that video people didn't throw punches. Which is of course also not true.

And at no point have you shown a hurt hand having any effect on a fight.

Or how you prevent a hurt hand from a palm strike that goes wrong.


----------



## Juany118 (Feb 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Baz Rutten is one of the hardest strikers in MMA.
> 
> The people in your course won't be.



That doesn't change physics or biomechanics.  You didn't see how he mentioned breaking hands on heads?  That's why he said you don't punch bare handed to a head.  The, as you say, "hardest striker", in a generic self defense video (like I will be teaching) saying "punch to the body, palm or forearm to head, so you don't break your hand."

It appears you didnt watch it.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I’m not even sure what you’re on about now.



You can't short cut fighting mechanics. All you can do is provide poor quality training.


----------



## Juany118 (Feb 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You said.
> 
> JUANY118 SAID: ↑
> Most fights I have seen, when people aren't trained, man or woman, the winner was the one who didn't injure their hand/hands and/or wrist by not knowing how to punch.
> ...



You didn't show a fight in a video where people struck in a manner where their fist could be hurt, as Bas says, will happens when you punch a head.

Keep trying.  Really right now you are just being stubbornly obtuse and ignoring the evidence that contradicts your myopic view.  Cheers


----------



## drop bear (Feb 9, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> That doesn't change physics or biomechanics.  You didn't see how he mentioned breaking hands on heads?  That's why he said you don't punch bare handed to a head.  The, as you say, "hardest striker", in a generic self defense video (like I will be teaching) saying "punch to the body, palm or forearm to head, so you don't break your hand."
> 
> It appears you didnt watch it.



I know plenty of people who have broken their hands punching to the body. You method is designed for a static target.

Palm heel goes out. Head goes forwards you catch the top of your hand rather than the heel of your palm and you can break your wrist.

If you don't want to break your hands put them in your pockets or something.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 9, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> You didn't show a fight in a video where people struck in a manner where their fist could be hurt, as Bas says, will happens when you punch a head.
> 
> Keep trying.  Really right now you are just being stubbornly obtuse and ignoring the evidence that contradicts your myopic view.  Cheers



They were punches. We have done this before. I show you a video you make stuff up.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Not so long as they are unable to use a fist well. A really bad and weak punch is far worse than a halfway decent slap.



Why would you train someone to do a really bad weak punch?


----------



## Juany118 (Feb 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> They were punches. We have done this before. I show you a video you make stuff up.



Welll Clearly from this respinse and your last response to Gerry you are just trolling now.  Thanks/no thanks for derailing my thread by trolling.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Feb 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Now you claim 99% of that video people didn't throw punches. Which is of course also not true


BTW that was me that said 90% of the clip wasn't punches not Juany.
Watch it again in slow motion if you like and you will notice that the mechanics of what is being thrown is different from a boxers punch. What you call sloppy punches is actually the base line normal human fixed behavioral patteren, meaning Instinctual. It's a hammer fist strike, same mechanics as the apes use, same mechanics as using tools and weapons. It's an action we are born with.......that's why it's a better option to be taught to short term beginners.  You can't screw it up. While on the contrary a boxers punch is learned behavior pattern and unless you spend a decent amount of time perfecting it ,,you will screw it up , do it poorly and perhaps mess your hand and wrist up.  On top of that the chances of the students hurting their wrists during the actual class is increased due to the limited time frame. ,that is certainly not going to help.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 10, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Welll Clearly from this respinse and your last response to Gerry you are just trolling now.  Thanks/no thanks for derailing my thread by trolling.


He views conversations as arguments to be won. So if he starts losing he gets desperate.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You can't short cut fighting mechanics. All you can do is provide poor quality training.


What we can do is provide the best training the time allows. There’s no question short timing limits the value of what can be provided.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Why would you train someone to do a really bad weak punch?


That’s what you’re doing if you try to fix a punch without enough time to do so.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 10, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> BTW that was me that said 90% of the clip wasn't punches not Juany.
> Watch it again in slow motion if you like and you will notice that the mechanics of what is being thrown is different from a boxers punch. What you call sloppy punches is actually the base line normal human fixed behavioral patteren, meaning Instinctual. It's a hammer fist strike, same mechanics as the apes use, same mechanics as using tools and weapons. It's an action we are born with.......that's why it's a better option to be taught to short term beginners.  You can't screw it up. While on the contrary a boxers punch is learned behavior pattern and unless you spend a decent amount of time perfecting it ,,you will screw it up , do it poorly and perhaps mess your hand and wrist up.  On top of that the chances of the students hurting their wrists during the actual class is increased due to the limited time frame. ,that is certainly not going to help.



So because untrained people do something badly. You should train them to do something badly because it is more natural?

Ever thrown palm heels on pads? You can hurt your wrist there as well if the pad holder isn't up to speed. 

Hit the bottom of a hand mitt when they angle it forwards and see what happens.

Hammer fists come with a different set of issues in that they take a bit to set up or they don't compete as well against straight striking.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That’s what you’re doing if you try to fix a punch without enough time to do so.


Yeah compromising yourself into pointlessness.

Less techniques, more efficient use of training time. Concept rather than technique driven training. And focus on solid fight winning basics. Knockout slaps are not fight winning basics. Fighting for knockouts, catastrophic damage or fight ending scenarios are over ambitious. Cut them up break their momentum and create a bit of space would be about the end goal here.

Remember we throw the same people you are talking about in the ring in three months.

The methods don't really change. Some of the tactical aspects will though.


----------



## Juany118 (Feb 10, 2018)

I really think this sums you up.



lklawson said:


> You don't have the applicable basis to design or even consider the tests. Never mind actually make them.
> 
> I've been trying to be nice about it but frankly, to be blunt, you are a poser.



You have demonstrated zero experience in training for weapons retention (other thread).  No experience in training others in short duration self defense classes BUT you know everything.  Even when recognized experts like Bas contradict you in their videos you won't admit you were wrong, you need to move goal posts, engage in ad hominems, complete non sequiturs etc.

These are the tactics of someone posing who gets caught out.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Feb 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> So because untrained people do something badly. You should train them to do something badly because it is more natural?
> 
> Ever thrown palm heels on pads? You can hurt your wrist there as well if the pad holder isn't up to speed.
> 
> ...



you are very confused in your view. there is no logic in your statements at all. it is barely worth my time to respond because your view is so one dimensional.    your contention is that a hammer fist doesnt compete as well as a straight punch.  yes in competition that would be a correct view but we are not talking about an MMA competition we are talking about a self defense situation. 
lets start with the fact that species are born with certain instinctual behaviors.  scientifically this is called a "Fixed Action Pattern" (FAP) .  these are actions that are triggered by certain stimuli called a "releaser" in the brain.  a FAP is also defined by the fact that they improve with repeated use.  so a baby is born with a FAP to suckle.  in test studies you can put a squirrel in a cage with no contact with other squirrel's and given a pure liquid diet from birth and if you give that squirrel a nut he will know what to do with it.  in the same way a hammer fist strike is a FAP.  the genus homo species and other apes have been doing this action for millions of years. * it works quite well.   *biomechanically it is the most powerfull striking action someone can do that is a FAP.  a straight punch is a learnt behavior and takes a lot of skill to generate power.  where the hammer fist incorporates the core contractions and arm muscle contractions that pull toward the body which are very strong a straight punch requires mass and rotation to achieve the same outcome.  if we look at the structure of the body the bicep is stronger than the tricep.  the pulling action has direct force incorporated by the stomach muscles and the latissimus dorsi.  
so what does that mean?  it means that an untrained person can generate more force with a hammer fist because it uses larger muscle groups while a straight punch needs more coordination to move the body as a unit, a skill they have not yet acquired and would need more time to develop.  A FAP also can get better with use but at a much faster rate then a learnt behavior.  
your comment again about what works in an MMA event is irrelevant.  a straight punch holds the advantage not because of some ill perceived "set up" time lag in a hammer strike but because of the human eyes and the ability to perceive the strike. a linear strike is not as well picked up by the eye thus has a better success rate in competition. however you an take any boxer MMA guy or anyone you choose and when a life threatening event happens .....lets say a tiger grabs a hold of your leg and you  need to strike it to let go, your brain will be more inclined to revert back to the hammer strike.  your comment is also predicated on a standing position.  you should know that when you are on your back that straight punch fails and a hammer strike still maintains some viability.  the hammer strike is functionable from many positions and angles where a straight punch does not.
lets do a test ,   sit on an straight back chair and throw some straight punches on a hand pad,  now have the pad held in the horizontal position and use the hammer fist.  what strike has more power?   in most self defense situations the victim is not defending themselves in the standing up right position squared off with their assailant.
with the gross motor movements of the hammer fist there is also crossover applicabilty.  if someone has you around waist from the front (like a tackle)  the most available strike is the downward elbow and guess what this is the same gross motor acting but on a shorter stroke.  place a rock in the hand same motor action, a stick, a purse, a book, a laptop computer and you will be striking with the same gross motor action as a hammer fist strike.  why do you think we call it a hammer strike, because it is the same action as using the tool...a hammer.  its a very efficient action as far as expenditure of energy for the return.

now you said something about doing it badly?????  who is doing what badly?   because humans do that action quite well with no training at all.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Feb 10, 2018)

At the end of the day its Juany that is teaching the class!!!   so every one else can clam up and teach your own classes anyway you think is right and he will do what he thinks is right.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 10, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> you are very confused in your view. there is no logic in your statements at all. it is barely worth my time to respond because your view is so one dimensional.    your contention is that a hammer fist doesnt compete as well as a straight punch.  yes in competition that would be a correct view but we are not talking about an MMA competition we are talking about a self defense situation.
> lets start with the fact that species are born with certain instinctual behaviors.  scientifically this is called a "Fixed Action Pattern" (FAP) .  these are actions that are triggered by certain stimuli called a "releaser" in the brain.  a FAP is also defined by the fact that they improve with repeated use.  so a baby is born with a FAP to suckle.  in test studies you can put a squirrel in a cage with no contact with other squirrel's and given a pure liquid diet from birth and if you give that squirrel a nut he will know what to do with it.  in the same way a hammer fist strike is a FAP.  the genus homo species and other apes have been doing this action for millions of years. * it works quite well.   *biomechanically it is the most powerfull striking action someone can do that is a FAP.  a straight punch is a learnt behavior and takes a lot of skill to generate power.  where the hammer fist incorporates the core contractions and arm muscle contractions that pull toward the body which are very strong a straight punch requires mass and rotation to achieve the same outcome.  if we look at the structure of the body the bicep is stronger than the tricep.  the pulling action has direct force incorporated by the stomach muscles and the latissimus dorsi.
> so what does that mean?  it means that an untrained person can generate more force with a hammer fist because it uses larger muscle groups while a straight punch needs more coordination to move the body as a unit, a skill they have not yet acquired and would need more time to develop.  A FAP also can get better with use but at a much faster rate then a learnt behavior.
> your comment again about what works in an MMA event is irrelevant.  a straight punch holds the advantage not because of some ill perceived "set up" time lag in a hammer strike but because of the human eyes and the ability to perceive the strike. a linear strike is not as well picked up by the eye thus has a better success rate in competition. however you an take any boxer MMA guy or anyone you choose and when a life threatening event happens .....lets say a tiger grabs a hold of your leg and you  need to strike it to let go, your brain will be more inclined to revert back to the hammer strike.  your comment is also predicated on a standing position.  you should know that when you are on your back that straight punch fails and a hammer strike still maintains some viability.  the hammer strike is functionable from many positions and angles where a straight punch does not.
> ...



You can throw more straight strikes than hammer fists in the same time. And you are less likely to be exposed doing it. This circumstance still applies in a self defence situation as in any other situation round striking and straight striking occurs.

So no not just in competition. That statement is wrong.

Striking from a chair has less relevance than striking in competition. If you are in a chair. Stand up.

If they are mid tackle. Hammer fists are not an optimal defence. So that doesn't apply.

If you have an actual hammer. Then yes hammer fists would be the best choice.

Hammer fists are a good strike. But all hammer fist start getting a bit silly.

If you thought that video was represents good striking. You may need to rethink your system there.


----------



## Juany118 (Feb 10, 2018)

Nvm.  I am reminded of what a Captain once told me once... "juany, never start yelling at someone who is just looking for an argument. If someone walks into the room after, they can't tell who the ignorant one is."


----------



## drop bear (Feb 11, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Nvm.  I am reminded of what a Captain once told me once... "juany, never start yelling at someone who is just looking for an argument. If someone walks into the room after, they can't tell who the ignorant one is."



If you had any idea what you were on about. You would probably get less argument though.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Feb 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You can throw more straight strikes than hammer fists in the same time.


this is a complete fallacy.  not sure how you do a hammer fist but its just not true.  and at best it would be something like 10 strikes per 10 seconds VS 10.02 strikes.  totally irrelevant and a non issue.


drop bear said:


> If they are mid tackle. Hammer fists are not an optimal defence. So that doesn't apply.


 i didnt say they were "being tackled" i said that position,  i will take a page from your play book and post pictures.





hammer strikes seem to be very popular in this position.



drop bear said:


> If you have an actual hammer. Then yes hammer fists would be the best choice.


 maybe we should issue actual hammers in MMA fights then.  because they use it all the time.




drop bear said:


> Striking from a chair has less relevance than striking in competition. If you are in a chair. Stand up.


you know Juany was being very kind in not actually responding.
this comment is just ....well .....your mouth is so big and your foot was right there.......
i got to break it into two segments.


drop bear said:


> Striking from a chair has less relevance than striking in competition.


again one dimensional.  the context is a self defense class,  not a competition.  its not the chair, you missed the point its the position....sitting.
New Survey: To Sit or Stand? Almost 70% of Full Time American Workers Hate Sitting, but They do it all Day Every Day

so since we sit 70% of the time the chances of you needing to fight back from the position is pretty good. besides the Gracies taught us 90% of all fights go to the ground,,, so i would think there must be a position in between laying down and standing...oh yes i remember SITTING UP.
we sit in a chair, the bed, the couch, the floor. in your car.  all seem like good places for women to learn how to defend themselves.



drop bear said:


> If you are in a chair. Stand up.



we sit in more places then just a straight back chair. as i pointed out.  if your answer is to just stand up.....WOW!!   why didnt we think of that before..  i think maybe you should go back to your gym and tell all those BJJ guys they are wasting their money!!   JUST STAND UP!


Just stand up




just stand up








*Just stand up!!!*

i mean really,  you could have thought that reply out a little better.   things are not that easy.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah compromising yourself into pointlessness.
> 
> Less techniques, more efficient use of training time. Concept rather than technique driven training. And focus on solid fight winning basics. Knockout slaps are not fight winning basics. Fighting for knockouts, catastrophic damage or fight ending scenarios are over ambitious. Cut them up break their momentum and create a bit of space would be about the end goal here.
> 
> ...


So you’re saying you can teach a timid, untrained person to deliver a useful, well formed punch in a couple of hours? If so, you teach punches better than me. I can do that with someone who isn’t timid in their approach to the punch, but not with the timid approach, which is far from uncommon among attendees to this kind of training session.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You can throw more straight strikes than hammer fists in the same time. And you are less likely to be exposed doing it. This circumstance still applies in a self defence situation as in any other situation round striking and straight striking occurs.
> 
> So no not just in competition. That statement is wrong.
> 
> ...


You keep ignoring the lack of experience. You want this to be about an absolute measure of “better”. A computer is better for calculating complex formulas than a plain 8-character calculator. Unless you don’t have a computer or don’t know how to use it.


----------



## Juany118 (Feb 11, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You keep ignoring the lack of experience. You want this to be about an absolute measure of “better”. A computer is better for calculating complex formulas than a plain 8-character calculator. Unless you don’t have a computer or don’t know how to use it.



This is my hope.  That he, some how, missed that this wasn't about "make a list of the best methods" but rather "let's make a curriculum that neophytes can absorb the basics of in 10-16 hours." Given his past history, he sticks to HIS original premise, even if he is talking past everyone else because no one else is sharing that premise. 

The only other option is that he is intentionally being obtuse moving goal posts, raising non sequiturs and engaging in strawman arguments just to cause drama.

At this point it almost has to be one of these two because fine, he wants to say that other "mere" forum goers don't know what we are talking about but to actively ignore/dismiss near universally recognized experts like Bas Rutten and his crew, among others?  You either have to be stubborn to the point of it being pathological or intentionally just stirring the pot.


----------



## TMA17 (Feb 11, 2018)

Sounds good Juany.  Good luck I think what you're doing is great.

Here is a scenario where a guy grabs your shirt that I thought was good using WC principles.


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## jks9199 (Feb 11, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> So you’re saying you can teach a timid, untrained person to deliver a useful, well formed punch in a couple of hours? If so, you teach punches better than me. I can do that with someone who isn’t timid in their approach to the punch, but not with the timid approach, which is far from uncommon among attendees to this kind of training session.


Actually, yes, I can.  But that's about all they'll learn in that session.  And there are tricks and gimmicks to do it.  But, with a couple-three hours and a basically willing person, I can teach them to throw an effective and piwerful punch under pressure.  I can also teach a palm strike and hammer strike along the way...  Some of tbe keys are principle based poeer generation, avoiding technical teaching, and making it playful...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Juany118 (Feb 11, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> Actually, yes, I can.  But that's about all they'll learn in that session.  And there are tricks and gimmicks to do it.  But, with a couple-three hours and a basically willing person, I can teach them to throw an effective and piwerful punch under pressure.  I can also teach a palm strike and hammer strike along the way...  Some of tbe keys are principle based poeer generation, avoiding technical teaching, and making it playful...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



I believe Gerry was saying "can you teach the punch, train what can and cannot be safely punched, with an unconditioned fist and when to use the palm and hammerfist instead AND everything else in the context of a self defense classes of a short duration."

When you look at the non-technique stuff, then the basic breaks from holds and grabs use of elbows and knees, what can you do if you end up on the ground, and hands, something has to give doesn't it?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> Actually, yes, I can.  But that's about all they'll learn in that session.  And there are tricks and gimmicks to do it.  But, with a couple-three hours and a basically willing person, I can teach them to throw an effective and piwerful punch under pressure.  I can also teach a palm strike and hammer strike along the way...  Some of tbe keys are principle based poeer generation, avoiding technical teaching, and making it playful...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


My issue has been the timidity. I’ve had students (and seminar attendees) whose initial strikes were barely enough to make me blink if they hit my face (and I’m not that tough). Universally, these folks had nothing approaching a useful fist for punching (usually a wrist position issue), and it would take me an hour to get to a fist and the ability to hurt a nose that didn’t move. I could get to the latter faster if I didn’t try to fix the fist and worked with hammerfist and slap. 

Obviously, that’s the extreme, but I’ve run into a fair number who were closer to that end of the continuum. 

If you can get that fist fixed to safe use faster, I’m interested in learning the principle you’re using.


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## Juany118 (Feb 11, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> My issue has been the timidity. I’ve had students (and seminar attendees) whose initial strikes were barely enough to make me blink if they hit my face (and I’m not that tough). Universally, these folks had nothing approaching a useful fist for punching (usually a wrist position issue), and it would take me an hour to get to a fist and the ability to hurt a nose that didn’t move. I could get to the latter faster if I didn’t try to fix the fist and worked with hammerfist and slap.
> 
> Obviously, that’s the extreme, but I’ve run into a fair number who were closer to that end of the continuum.
> 
> If you can get that fist fixed to safe use faster, I’m interested in learning the principle you’re using.



I agree with the timidity issue and to me that is part of the training issue.  There are a lot of people who are afraid of hurting themselves when punching, but getting them to palm, hammerfist or slap (slaps on ears HURT) with force behind it takes very little effort and that means there is more time for other things.  I would suspect that it is an equally difficult task to get a student comfortable enough with ways to free oneself from being grabbed, so they won't panic, and since there are effective strikes that aren't punches, time would be better spent there.  It's just, to my mind, a matter of cost/benefit analysis.

As you said though, if a punch could be taught effectively, in this context, I would be interested to know, but most expert sources I have found seem to put it at a lower priority, in the context we are talking about here.  From what I can tell it's because they believe bare, unconditioned, punches should largely be left for body shots and typically smaller females will find body shots less effective so strikes to the head/neck are focused on to get the element of "shock" that is useful to aid in escape.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 11, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> , I can teach them to throw an effective and powerful punch under pressure.


The bigger issue is the ability to remember and utilize that tool months or years down the road with zero training in between.
During an assault that response will not be available in the brain
Which is why a the fixed action pattern is better. It is never forgotten and takes substantially less practice time to improve and those improvements will stick.


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## drop bear (Feb 11, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You keep ignoring the lack of experience. You want this to be about an absolute measure of “better”. A computer is better for calculating complex formulas than a plain 8-character calculator. Unless you don’t have a computer or don’t know how to use it.



Well no, what I am doing here is the opposite. 

Palm heel strikes work but you have to be able to hit hard or they basically do bubkus. This is why Baz Rutten can justify using them. Apart from the pain of getting slapped it relies on hitting hard enough to move the head.

There are positional advantages and all sorts of cool things you can do with them.

But you don't have enough time to create the sort of basic skill set that palm heels will be an advantage.

You are just not going to create the sort of juice needed to make it work. It is nothing like it is being presented to you by the Krav set..I have done them. straight ones, round ones everything. You get a bit of head movement and that is about it. Good for me because I dont want to carve guys faces up and possibly want to throw an intimidation shot out to back a guy off and let him know I am serious.
.





But this set up is not for me.

Hammer fists. Great move in all sorts of positional situations. I use them to for set ups and opening up grappling options. But you cant do them well if you are standing in front of someone. You are put at a positional disadvantage if they are throwing straight shots down the pipe. And I am throwing round shots. Unless I have the better footwork.

Are you going to have time to do combative footwork like angling off and striking? and If you are in a position to do hammerfists you pretty much dont have to train it.. Its there.

Your best option if you have a limited time to give a person skills is to give them the ability to throw as many effective strikes as they can in as short amount of time as they can. And that is straight shots down the pipe.

And unfortunately that will require a bit of training to get a persons head around. Because everybody instinctively wants to throw tennis balls.

It is not any sort of set up for decent fighters. It is about best bang for buck under a very short amount of time. 

This is the calculator version of self defence.


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## drop bear (Feb 11, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> but most expert sources I have found seem to put it at a lower priority, in the context we are talking about here. From what I can tell it's because they believe bare, unconditioned, punches should largely be left for body shots



Untill you hit the top of your thumb on their elbow. And then you can break your hand.

And that is a bit common.

I am not sure where people are playing out this hand breaking issue because all the alternatives come with the risk of breaking hands.


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## drop bear (Feb 11, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> So you’re saying you can teach a timid, untrained person to deliver a useful, well formed punch in a couple of hours? If so, you teach punches better than me. I can do that with someone who isn’t timid in their approach to the punch, but not with the timid approach, which is far from uncommon among attendees to this kind of training session.



There is a percentage of people the training will work for. Plain and simple. There comes a point where a person will make so many consessions that fighting itself pretty much goes off the table.

These systems that are designed for 90 year olds to handle any attacker are basically lies. And you cant just make the training work for people if it doesn't work. That is dihonest.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Well no, what I am doing here is the opposite.
> 
> Palm heel strikes work but you have to be able to hit hard or they basically do bubkus. This is why Baz Rutten can justify using them. Apart from the pain of getting slapped it relies on hitting hard enough to move the head.
> 
> ...


You make the argument against the punch nicely about 2/3 down. The rest seems to be more absolutism (either knock-out or nothing). 

There are good arguments for a punch. You even make some. But the ones you make don’t apply under the limitations of the situation. And I’m not aware of any that do. 

Unless you have some evidence or experience that suggests otherwise. I suspect if you did, you’d have supplied it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There is a percentage of people the training will work for. Plain and simple. There comes a point where a person will make so many consessions that fighting itself pretty much goes off the table.
> 
> These systems that are designed for 90 year olds to handle any attacker are basically lies. And you cant just make the training work for people if it doesn't work. That is dihonest.


Short seminars like this are about improving the odds a bit. Not about building fighters.

Edit: fixed a typo.


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## drop bear (Feb 11, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Short seminars like this are about improving the odds a bit. Not about building fighters.
> 
> Edit: fixed a typo.



There are going to be elements that improve the odds a bit quicker and a bit more efficiently in that short amount of time than others.

So if I could teach someone ten effective techniques or build a fighter even with bad technique. I think the fighter would have better odds.

I would suggest exposure to fighting would give people more of a chance.


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## drop bear (Feb 11, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You make the argument against the punch nicely about 2/3 down. The rest seems to be more absolutism (either knock-out or nothing).
> 
> There are good arguments for a punch. You even make some. But the ones you make don’t apply under the limitations of the situation. And I’m not aware of any that do.
> 
> Unless you have some evidence or experience that suggests otherwise. I suspect if you did, you’d have supplied it.



The alternatives don't really fix the problem. You can break a hand throwing open hand strikes. The downside is open hand strikes just don't have the same damaging effect. And they don't have the same psychological effect.

Knuckles cut and knuckles find eyeballs. And you get a few extra inches of range. And people know punching works. You have to convince people that open hand strikes work. Which you are then trying to sell to someone who isn't going to hit very hard.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There are going to be elements that improve the odds a bit quicker and a bit more efficiently in that short amount of time than others.
> 
> So if I could teach someone ten effective techniques or build a fighter even with bad technique. I think the fighter would have better odds.
> 
> I would suggest exposure to fighting would give people more of a chance.


That last point is a good one. I haven’t figured out yet how to get much of that effectively and safely incorporated. 

The whole “what kind of strike” to me comes down to what you can get them to use with any effectiveness at all. I go with what my experience has taught me the audience can learn to most effectiveness in that time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The alternatives don't really fix the problem. You can break a hand throwing open hand strikes. The downside is open hand strikes just don't have the same damaging effect. And they don't have the same psychological effect.
> 
> Knuckles cut and knuckles find eyeballs. And you get a few extra inches of range. And people know punching works. You have to convince people that open hand strikes work. Which you are then trying to sell to someone who isn't going to hit very hard.


You and I clearly have had different experiences with new people. I suspect the difference is the population making up those new students.


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## lklawson (Feb 12, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> The only other option is that he is intentionally being obtuse moving goal posts, raising non sequiturs and engaging in strawman arguments just to cause drama.
> 
> At this point it almost has to be one of these two because fine, he wants to say that other "mere" forum goers don't know what we are talking about but to actively ignore/dismiss near universally recognized experts like Bas Rutten and his crew, among others?  You either have to be stubborn to the point of it being pathological or intentionally just stirring the pot.


Based on the fact that we have watched him make pronouncements regarding situations and techniques which he's admitted he has no experience or training in...   

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Feb 12, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> I agree with the timidity issue and to me that is part of the training issue.  There are a lot of people who are afraid of hurting themselves when punching, but getting them to palm, hammerfist or slap (slaps on ears HURT) with force behind it takes very little effort and that means there is more time for other things.  I would suspect that it is an equally difficult task to get a student comfortable enough with ways to free oneself from being grabbed, so they won't panic, and since there are effective strikes that aren't punches, time would be better spent there.  It's just, to my mind, a matter of cost/benefit analysis.
> 
> As you said though, if a punch could be taught effectively, in this context, I would be interested to know, but most expert sources I have found seem to put it at a lower priority, in the context we are talking about here.  From what I can tell it's because they believe bare, unconditioned, punches should largely be left for body shots and typically smaller females will find body shots less effective so strikes to the head/neck are focused on to get the element of "shock" that is useful to aid in escape.


Well... Humans are tool users.

An old Silat friend of mine used to say, "You don't eat with your hands, why would you fight with them?"

 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Feb 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> But this set up is not for me.
> 
> Hammer fists.


What?  This wasn't a hammer fist attack.  You can tell from the position of her right elbow during the swing (and the path of the swing itself) that her fist was pronated (palm down).  This was nothing more than a massively telegraphed haymaker.


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## Juany118 (Feb 12, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Well... Humans are tool users.
> 
> An old Silat friend of mine used to say, "You don't eat with your hands, why would you fight with them?"
> 
> ...



That's one of the reasons why I will be including weapons of opportunity.  How to properly hold keys (no you don't put them between your fingers  ), are you holding an umbrella etc.  It will be based on FMA principles though so Prof Donnelly might not approve


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## lklawson (Feb 12, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> That's one of the reasons why I will be including weapons of opportunity.  How to properly hold keys (no you don't put them between your fingers  ), are you holding an umbrella etc.


Sounds like good to me.  



> It will be based on FMA principles though so Prof Donnelly might not approve


Ned or Mark?

For Ned, well some of his footwork looks a bit FMA-ish:



Ned Donnelly - Side Step by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

...and Donnelly's "In-Fighting" would be instantly recognizable to FMA guys (and a lot of others):



Ned Donnelly - Infighting by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

While there have been persistent discussions about whether or not FMA's influenced boxing or if boxing influenced FMA's, I think it's probably just a case of parallel evolution.  Humans only move, punch, and break in so many ways.  It's unavoidable that martial pursuits which move, punch, and break humans are going to have some things which look similar.  

Now, if we're talking about Prof. Mark Donnelly, I'm on friendly terms with him but I really haven't spoken with him in some years.  I could probably reach out to him if anyone really wanted.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Juany118 (Feb 12, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Sounds like good to me.
> 
> Ned or Mark?
> 
> ...



I meant Mark.  I attend events he sometimes does seminars at, and sells canes, one of which I bought.  It was kinda a "personal" joke because at one he was teaching some basics of Scottish knife fighting.  I wasn't speaking with him but one of his students that was assisting.  I pointed out that Kali and Wing Chun shared a similar defense to a downward reverse grip stab and the student gave me a look that said "if it's not Scottish it's crap" 

As for the boxing part I do think Western Boxing had an influence as there is evidence.  What is usually called "Dirty boxing" tends to be stronger in the areas where the Spanish, and then the US, established firm control.  In the far South, where neither established firm control, there are pockets of more obvious Silat influence (a number of Muslim/Indonesian Empires had a lot of contact with the Philippines before the Spanish arrived) in the empty hand striking.  There are even styles there that call themselves Silat. The grappling however appears to remain fairly similar though, based on my research at least, which is decent but not all encompassing.

My guess is that cultural influence can have a greater impact on striking in a blade oriented culture, vs grappling.  All blade oriented styles have grappling so you can get to your weapon or stop the other guys weapons if you have none.  There are simply more limited ways to avoid getting cut.


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## lklawson (Feb 12, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> I meant Mark.  I attend events he sometimes does seminars at, and sells canes, one of which I bought.  It was kinda a "personal" joke because at one he was teaching some basics of Scottish knife fighting.  I wasn't speaking with him but one of his students that was assisting.  I pointed out that Kali and Wing Chun shared a similar defense to a downward reverse grip stab and the student gave me a look that said "if it's not Scottish it's crap"


Maybe a certain amount of martial arrogance and conceit is unavoidable regardless of the origin.  

I probably haven't met the assistant in question but it might also be that the fellow is used to people with other martial backgrounds insisting that the HEMA stuff is too basic, identical to what they already do (so why do they care?), or often even just straight up stolen from some other art and being passed off as Western origin.  I've seen all of those and more.  It still boggles me that people would pay good money and spend their finite time to go to someone else' seminar when they believe that it's stolen or non useful.

I used to have a friend who would go to WMA seminars I was teaching at and spend a lot of his time explaining to his training partners there the way they did it in his Karate style.  It didn't take too many times before his partners would start to feel very strongly that they didn't give a crap if his style would strike with the Bo slightly different from this Quarterstaff technique or they'd punch different, just do the technique that the instructor is showing.  

Nice enough guy other than that and some quirks.  I don't want to talk bad about him.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Juany118 (Feb 12, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Maybe a certain amount of martial arrogance and conceit is unavoidable regardless of the origin.
> 
> I probably haven't met the assistant in question but it might also be that the fellow is used to people with other martial backgrounds insisting that the HEMA stuff is too basic, identical to what they already do (so why do they care?), or often even just straight up stolen from some other art and being passed off as Western origin.  I've seen all of those and more.  It still boggles me that people would pay good money and spend their finite time to go to someone else' seminar when they believe that it's stolen or non useful.
> 
> ...


You might be right.  I was only speaking of a specific technique and perhaps trying to express a point myself and a friend, who is  a dedicated HEMA practitioner, have realized from comparing notes between FMA and HEMA, biomechanics are biomechanics.  As an example, my FMA training won't have much to say with long sword, but sword and buckler, saber styles? We started to see the similarities.  It could have been a 20 something kid not realizing this almost 50 something kid was just saying "the more things change the more they stay the same, not better or worse."


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## lklawson (Feb 12, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> You might be right.  I was only speaking of a specific technique and perhaps trying to express a point myself and a friend, who is  a dedicated HEMA practitioner, have realized from comparing notes between FMA and HEMA, biomechanics are biomechanics.  As an example, my FMA training won't have much to say with long sword, but sword and buckler, saber styles? We started to see the similarities.  It could have been a 20 something kid not realizing this almost 50 something kid was just saying "the more things change the more they stay the same, not better or worse."


Meh.  I'm just speculating anyway.

But yeah, you're right that a saber of a given shape is going to be used pretty much the same way, caeteris paribus, regardless if it's a Philippine Pirate or a Spanish Pirate.  'Cuz... *PIRATES*!


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## drop bear (Feb 12, 2018)

lklawson said:


> What?  This wasn't a hammer fist attack.  You can tell from the position of her right elbow during the swing (and the path of the swing itself) that her fist was pronated (palm down).  This was nothing more than a massively telegraphed haymaker.



What is your personal experience with street fights?


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## lklawson (Feb 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> What is your personal experience with street fights?


I've had a few fights.  What do you need advice on?


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## Brian King (Feb 13, 2018)

Juany118,

Congratulations and good luck with your program.

A few quick thoughts. If the women match up with statistics, some will have faced violence and trauma during their childhood and as young women. With this in mind, a couple of suggestions.

*1*. Do not put them into scenario training until you know them and have earned their trust, that type of training can do unintended harm to them.

*2*. As a way of earning their trust and giving them some limited power, ask permission prior to touching them or having them touch you. For example, if working wrist grabs/escapes and wanting to demonstrate with a student, ask that student, “would you mind grabbing my wrist?” Another example is while observing two students working wrist grabs and wanting to move one of their arms into a different permission ask “do you mind if I touch your arm here/there? Ask every time, not just once at the beginning of the day or the program.

*3*. Be aware of looming. Looming is being too close and overhead to a student. This is most disconcerting and intimidating while doing any groundwork it is also negative while standing and/or moving upright. Ask to approach and do so from a direction that is not intimidating or remindful of prior confrontations or abuses that they may have survived. Keep a little distance and do not be directly over them.

Besides prior trauma many people (not only females but males as well) will have a tough time with any body to body contact, let alone scooping eyes out with thumbs or smashing tender parts. I have seen great success on overcoming this by incorporating safe body contact into the warm-ups and cool downs. A couple of quick examples. Have the students interlock arms in groups of three or four so that they are back to back(ish) in a small circle facing outwards. Then as a group have them do a squat then sit on the floor with their legs out straight, then have them get back up to their feet. (Hint – it is MUCH easier if they lean back into each other and push each other back up but don’t tell them too quickly- let them work on it a bit). Have them do these three or four times. For push-ups have them form a circle with one arm on the scapula of the person (to the right or left your choice) next to them and with the other arm as a group do a push up, after a few switch arms. Another GREAT partnered push up is one partner laying on the ground and the other partner doing push-ups on the partner that is laying on the ground. Have the person doing the push-ups work all around their partners body including stomach and face (with permission and if not pregnant, duh) If they can they should be doing push-ups on fist but not that big a deal. After ten or so switch. Advanced version is person on the ground allowed to slowly barrel roll around on the ground, which of course makes the push-ups much more challenging.  For partnered sit-ups, have the one not doing sit-ups to position their body near the one doing sit-ups so that they can place their hands on the shoulders, head and (with permission face) of the one doing sit-ups. Their job is to provide resistance to the one doing sit-ups. It is NOT to stop them, but ‘merely’ to provide some resistance. These type of exercises Jauny118 help them get used to both receiving and giving contact in a safe, healthy, and fun way. It helps them build trust in their fellow students, which will come in handy during further training and study.

For cool downs I HIGHLY recommend partnered massage. One such is a three, four, or more person massage. One student lays on the floor and the others sit around that student. The student laying on the floor mission is to lay there and breathe deeply and calmly. The other students then place their fists on that student’s body and gently apply body weight. When the student laying there tenses up the students should not remove their fists but rather hold that exact position and depth and let the student on the ground thru breathing and forced relaxation (sometimes momentarily adding then removing tension will help) get comfortable with the contact and the crowd of people around them. The students placing and the student being massaged learn where painful and where comfortable/uncomfortable places are for their fists on peoples body…while getting a massage. Another type of massage is partner taps their partner with slaps…all over. It is invigorating done with depth and calming when done on the surface. It also gets the students used to ‘hitting and being hit’ while in a safe and fun environment

Regarding any techniques, you are thinking of introducing them to, be able to demonstrate them while wearing high heels and a dress. Kicks can be done in heels but it is likely different than your normal method.

I too recommend slapping but I advise them to turn their ring stones towards their palm when urban walking or feeling nervous. Besides ‘hiding’ their rings and valuables, it adds cutting and ripping to the slap. If above the eyes, it can cause blood to temporarily hinder the sight of their attacker. You might want to tell them, that it also marks the attacker for later identification should the attacker be picked up by the police and (you might not want to tell them) it also collects DNA should that be necessary.

Try to be able to articulate that any weakness they might feel is also a possible strength. High heels make kicking and running difficult but can be improvised weapons. Being smaller means a larger opponent often has to break their posture in order to grab them, being sensitive with work can be more intuitive and aware etc…

Have a printed out reading list that also has your contact info. Gaven DeBeckers book “the gift of fear” is a good one, Massad  Ayoob “in the gravest extreme” is a good older book. Rory Miller has some good books, Kris Wilder and others.

Have a printed review that they can fill out and leave or send to you. Criticism will help you in the future.

Also, last but not least, 20 years, wow. Thank you for your service


Regards

Brian King


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## Juany118 (Feb 13, 2018)

Thanks @Brian King on all counts.  Your #1 won't be as big an issue as it might usually be.  My first group (if I can ever get them to agree to a schedule lol) will be the cohort my Girlfriend is already a part of.  I already know a fair number of them and I think those I don't know will give some trust to her judgement that I am not a creeper


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## Brian King (Feb 13, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Thanks @Brian King on all counts.  Your #1 won't be as big an issue as it might usually be.  My first group (if I can ever get them to agree to a schedule lol) will be the cohort my Girlfriend is already a part of.  I already know a fair number of them and I think those I don't know will give some trust to her judgement that I am not a creeper




That’s great. You usually see the effects of childhood abuse, beatings, and rapes written on their bodies and in the psyche long before they trust you enough and gain enough trust in themselves, to re-live and tell you about their pain and experiences. If they get into scenario training that forces them to re-live their attacks and abuse before they are, or you are, ready it can cause them harm. It is not so much about them thinking you are or are not a creeper. If they have been friends for a while, they have all seen each other date creeps. That does not really matter; after all, the training is *NOT* about you/the instructor. The training is about them and giving them strength and trust in themselves, so that they can trust that inner warning voice and keep their head if and when a violent confrontation happens and to perhaps keep their head enough to be aware before it happens, or to see the continued violent patterns of their and their friends life. In your group of ten, three or more will likely have suffered from abuse or seeing their mother abused. It is behind them but is still there. Approached slowly, and with all eyes open is in my opinion the best way to deal with it. It does not have to red man, yelling, weapons, vulgar language to set off their stress trauma responses. The scenario training can be as innocent as wrist grabs, chokes, grabs from behind, hands on face, eyes, or neck, restraint, or body positions and still have negative effect on the students. Watch carefully, listen to their breathing, watch their eyes and color of skin, listen to the tone of their voice and count the syllables of the words that they are using. Keep any excess tension out of your face and eyes, keep you voice low tone and modulated. Do not ever judge and let them have space if they need it. Help them by reminding them not to hold their breathing in, keep their shoulders down etc. Now and then, take a break when doing serious work and do push-ups or some other non-combative physical activity that uses energy and requires muscles moving.

Good luck, I am sure that the workshop will be a positive and worthwhile exercise for you and them.

Regards

Brian King


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 13, 2018)

Brian King said:


> That’s great. You usually see the effects of childhood abuse, beatings, and rapes written on their bodies and in the psyche long before they trust you enough and gain enough trust in themselves, to re-live and tell you about their pain and experiences. If they get into scenario training that forces them to re-live their attacks and abuse before they are, or you are, ready it can cause them harm. It is not so much about them thinking you are or are not a creeper. If they have been friends for a while, they have all seen each other date creeps. That does not really matter; after all, the training is *NOT* about you/the instructor. The training is about them and giving them strength and trust in themselves, so that they can trust that inner warning voice and keep their head if and when a violent confrontation happens and to perhaps keep their head enough to be aware before it happens, or to see the continued violent patterns of their and their friends life. In your group of ten, three or more will likely have suffered from abuse or seeing their mother abused. It is behind them but is still there. Approached slowly, and with all eyes open is in my opinion the best way to deal with it. It does not have to red man, yelling, weapons, vulgar language to set off their stress trauma responses. The scenario training can be as innocent as wrist grabs, chokes, grabs from behind, hands on face, eyes, or neck, restraint, or body positions and still have negative effect on the students. Watch carefully, listen to their breathing, watch their eyes and color of skin, listen to the tone of their voice and count the syllables of the words that they are using. Keep any excess tension out of your face and eyes, keep you voice low tone and modulated. Do not ever judge and let them have space if they need it. Help them by reminding them not to hold their breathing in, keep their shoulders down etc. Now and then, take a break when doing serious work and do push-ups or some other non-combative physical activity that uses energy and requires muscles moving.
> 
> Good luck, I am sure that the workshop will be a positive and worthwhile exercise for you and them.
> 
> ...


You make a good point, Brian. 

@Juany118, I had an attendee who was a survivor lose it in situation training. Her husband was her partner and knew of the issue, but didn't expect it to be such a problem when he laid his hands gently at her neck. It took me a good bit of effort to help her stay in the moment and stay calm. She (and he) asked about taking classes, but never showed up for classes. I suspect if I'd given that warning up front and been more on top of her reaction (spotting it early with the cues Brian refers to), I might have spared her some major anxiety, and they might have felt comfortable enough to train with me long-term. I missed a chance to help her.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 13, 2018)

I wouldn't recommend kicking in high heels.  Even if the woman has great balance and excellent kicks, the shoe itself may not hold up depending on the type of heel.  It's a big risk factor in terms of self-defense.  If the opportunity exists then the best thing to do is do what this lady did.





This doesn't only apply to heels but also flip flops or any sandals that don't fit close to the feet.  The main reason is that keeping them on divides your attention between defending yourself and trying not to break your ankle.  If the woman works in downtown environment then I would recommend doing what many women here in Atlanta do.  They carry a bag that can hold another pair of shoes or they remove the heels and wear a more practical shoe.  It's common to see women who work in corporate offices wear heels when they are in the building and wear a more comfortable type of shoe when they go out to eat lunch.  Some women wear a lower heel which gives more stability and it makes it possible for them to work more on the ball of their feet than a high heel. 

I know in some cases it won't be an option to have multiple shoes, but taking heels off vs keeping them on is always an option.


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## Brian King (Feb 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I had an attendee who was a survivor lose it in situation training. Her husband was her partner and knew of the issue, but didn't expect it to be such a problem when he laid his hands gently at her neck. It took me a good bit of effort to help her stay in the moment and stay calm. She (and he) asked about taking classes, but never showed up for classes. I suspect if I'd given that warning up front and been more on top of her reaction (spotting it early with the cues Brian refers to), I might have spared her some major anxiety, and they might have felt comfortable enough to train with me long-term. I missed a chance to help her.




Thanks Gpseymour,

A couple of quick things. I actually STRONGLY advise couples (and fathers and children) not to train together at workshops. I think that it is not only not healthy but I also think that is very unhealthy in many ways for them to partner during a workshop (and if new to martial arts to even partner during regular classes) The talk to them goes something like this. “Have you ever been called a bad name and/or disrespected by a stranger? Now imagine your wife/husband calling you that same name. It is much more powerful, it cuts much deeper with loved ones vs strangers. This is martial practice and we are training, exploring, and learning here. Your partner will at some time during the days training hit you harder than you think they should have, they might twist and bend a joint further or harder than is comfortable for you. They will make contact and it will hurt. It might or might not be intentional. Everyone is learning on both sides of the equation. When your loved one punches too quickly, too hard, you WILL feel betrayed by the one that you love. For the first time (hopefully) your loved one will hit you and use violence upon your body. That is not something that I feel is healthy for either psyche. Then there is the other side. Your loved one is expected during this workshop to hit and twist your body. They will have to go from protector to attacker and/or from nurturer and comforter to attacker. The seeing and feeling this change in roles will affect your psyche and importantly your relationship. The possible negative benefits far outweigh any positive benefits from training together during this workshop”.


You also wrote “I missed a chance to help her.” How do you know? Perhaps that goose was enough to get her professional help (and him as well for dealing with the guilt of ‘hurting her’). As instructors, remember, we do not help/teach the students. It is rather the students doing the work helps the students. We can injure and hurt the students but help, not so much in my opinion. Do not beat yourself up too much over the incident. Sometimes we teach and sometimes we are taught. If not done on purpose or thru deliberate negligence learn from it and share the lessons (which you have done…hat tip)

I hope that makes sense.

Regards

Brian King


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 15, 2018)

Brian King said:


> Thanks Gpseymour,
> 
> A couple of quick things. I actually STRONGLY advise couples (and fathers and children) not to train together at workshops. I think that it is not only not healthy but I also think that is very unhealthy in many ways for them to partner during a workshop (and if new to martial arts to even partner during regular classes) The talk to them goes something like this. “Have you ever been called a bad name and/or disrespected by a stranger? Now imagine your wife/husband calling you that same name. It is much more powerful, it cuts much deeper with loved ones vs strangers. This is martial practice and we are training, exploring, and learning here. Your partner will at some time during the days training hit you harder than you think they should have, they might twist and bend a joint further or harder than is comfortable for you. They will make contact and it will hurt. It might or might not be intentional. Everyone is learning on both sides of the equation. When your loved one punches too quickly, too hard, you WILL feel betrayed by the one that you love. For the first time (hopefully) your loved one will hit you and use violence upon your body. That is not something that I feel is healthy for either psyche. Then there is the other side. Your loved one is expected during this workshop to hit and twist your body. They will have to go from protector to attacker and/or from nurturer and comforter to attacker. The seeing and feeling this change in roles will affect your psyche and importantly your relationship. The possible negative benefits far outweigh any positive benefits from training together during this workshop”.
> 
> ...


Excellent advice, all through, Brian. I have to say I've never really thought about that first part. I've taught many couples, and they've almost all started together, and almost all trained together mostly as partners. And now, with my small program, it's almost unavoidable. But you've given me good food for thought. At the very least - when I can't see a way to allow that separation for the early training - I should probably have a "couples talk" (or even "family talk") before letting them train together.


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## drop bear (Feb 15, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Based on the fact that we have watched him make pronouncements regarding situations and techniques which he's admitted he has no experience or training in...
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I have palm heeled guys in street fights though.

Not that great.

Big guys yeah. Smaller guys not so much.

Noobs with limited training. Good luck with that

I have pulled weapons out and smacked people with them pretty successfully as well.

In fact the only time I lost one was when it was pulled from my belt.


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## drop bear (Feb 15, 2018)

lklawson said:


> I've had a few fights.  What do you need advice on?



How many people have you slapped as a bouncer?

What effect has it had?


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## Juany118 (Feb 15, 2018)

drop bear said:


> How many people have you slapped as a bouncer?
> 
> What effect has it had?



Maybe this is the issue.  What's your job as a bouncer?  It's not really self defense (meaning escape).  Yes someone may try to assault you BUT your "job" is break up a fight, restrain people, "escort" them to the door etc.  A strong slap, even to the ear, may be of limited in use BUT if you are just looking for a moment of shock so you can run it has a level of effectiveness.  

The more I have been thinking about this, especially after reading what @Brian King wrote (and he and @gpseymour can correct me if I am wrong) is that yes, self defense should teach prevention and avoidance.  Yes it should teach easy to digest and repeat techniques, the focus of which is to create an opening to flee or create/maintain distance until help arrives.  BUT it's also there to simply help the person gain a level of confidence, to be able to push through the instinct to curl into a ball either due to timidity or trauma.


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## drop bear (Feb 15, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Maybe this is the issue.  What's your job as a bouncer?  It's not really self defense (meaning escape).  Yes someone may try to assault you BUT your "job" is break up a fight, restrain people, "escort" them to the door etc.  A strong slap, even to the ear, may be of limited in use BUT if you are just looking for a moment of shock so you can run it has a level of effectiveness.
> 
> The more I have been thinking about this, especially after reading what @Brian King wrote (and he and @gpseymour can correct me if I am wrong) is that yes, self defense should teach prevention and avoidance.  Yes it should teach easy to digest and repeat techniques, the focus of which is to create an opening to flee or create/maintain distance until help arrives.  BUT it's also there to simply help the person gain a level of confidence, to be able to push through the instinct to curl into a ball either due to timidity or trauma.



No as a bouncer a strong slap is kind of a go to.

But bouncing is not really self defence.

I am probably one of a smaller group of people who have had to fight girls. And  strong slap from a girl has never broken my momentum.

Spitting has had more effect.


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## Juany118 (Feb 15, 2018)

drop bear said:


> No as a bouncer a strong slap is kind of a go to.
> 
> But bouncing is not really self defence.
> 
> ...



Regular slaps yeah but it terms of a slap (vs fast hands) I think an ear shot would indeed slow you.  That is actually and *oh crap* go to for me with bigger people.  Burst an ear drum once because I couldn't get to my knife and the guy was going for my taser.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 15, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Maybe this is the issue.  What's your job as a bouncer?  It's not really self defense (meaning escape).  Yes someone may try to assault you BUT your "job" is break up a fight, restrain people, "escort" them to the door etc.  A strong slap, even to the ear, may be of limited in use BUT if you are just looking for a moment of shock so you can run it has a level of effectiveness.
> 
> The more I have been thinking about this, especially after reading what @Brian King wrote (and he and @gpseymour can correct me if I am wrong) is that yes, self defense should teach prevention and avoidance.  Yes it should teach easy to digest and repeat techniques, the focus of which is to create an opening to flee or create/maintain distance until help arrives.  BUT it's also there to simply help the person gain a level of confidence, to be able to push through the instinct to curl into a ball either due to timidity or trauma.


I can agree with that. And I work with a progression. I want to immediately give them something that can improve their odds. As time permits, I add more (and better) tools. I agree with the basic principle DB is using - doing more damage is a better way to survive. I just don't agree with him that a timid newbie (nor even most "average" folks who come to me) will do more damage to their attacker with a closed hand. Most of them will practice harder hits with an open hand, and if I have them do closed-hand, about half will commit some pretty bad contortions in their wrist until corrected - things that make it likely they'll injure themselves if they were to hit hard.


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## Brian King (Feb 16, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> The more I have been thinking about this, especially after reading what @Brian King wrote (and he and @gpseymour can correct me if I am wrong) is that yes, self defense should teach prevention and avoidance.  Yes it should teach easy to digest and repeat techniques, the focus of which is to create an opening to flee or create/maintain distance until help arrives.  BUT it's also there to simply help the person gain a level of confidence, to be able to push through the instinct to curl into a ball either due to timidity or trauma.




We don’t do techniques in the art that I study so of course I do not think that they are a requirement but also do not think that they would be a total waste of time for the students and can be a enjoyable use of time.

I would add that if a student can gain even a small additional insight into who they are and who the people around them are and what the world they live in…is, then this is a successful and worthy accomplishment. The working with others on martial aspects can be like a violence inoculation, protecting the student from possible future violence and helping them to process past violence.     

Every participant at a workshop will gain something different unique from the other participants. Each has a unique life experience to draw on, each have different capabilities and attributes. Each will alone explore the material and experiences provided by the instructor and fellow students internally even while working externally with partners. It is like dying for even if surrounded by family and friends it must still be done alone.

Regards


Brian King


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 16, 2018)

all this talk about slaps reminds me of a karate 10th dan i know.  he was at a ball game and 2 seats behind him some guy was drunk and obnoxious.  the security folks couldnt get him out of his seat to escort him out.  so this karate guy (who is also a LEO trainer)  get up and asks the guy to cooperate and leave.  nope ....so he slaps the guy and knocks him unconscious.  security picks him up and halls him out ,, problem solved.


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## lklawson (Feb 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I have palm heeled guys in street fights though.
> 
> Not that great.
> 
> ...


That's nice.  Irrelevant to your claims, but nice.


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## lklawson (Feb 16, 2018)

drop bear said:


> How many people have you slapped as a bouncer?
> 
> What effect has it had?


So you are asking me for advice on how to bounce?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 16, 2018)

lklawson said:


> So you are asking me for advice on how to bounce?


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> Regular slaps yeah but it terms of a slap (vs fast hands) I think an ear shot would indeed slow you.  That is actually and *oh crap* go to for me with bigger people.  Burst an ear drum once because I couldn't get to my knife and the guy was going for my taser.



Ear shots are good. 

A lot of that sort of stuff is positional. So you can hammer fist from here, ear shot from there elbow from somewhere else. But then that is a bunch of different strikes you either have to spend time drilling. Or gloss over a bit.

Personally I would gloss over them. Just because you can probably work that out for yourself anyway.


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2018)

lklawson said:


> That's nice.  Irrelevant to your claims, but nice.



You didn't even know what my claim was.


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## pdg (Feb 22, 2018)

At the risk of getting a reputation for dragging up previous topics... 

I'm commenting on personal experience, not linking to videos or other published techniques because I'm hugely underqualified to judge either way.

In my life I have had 3 instances of physical 'self defence', all at school.

First time, I was about 11 and a ~15 year old grabbed me from behind with a (what I now know was a very poorly executed) rear choke. As I toppled backwards toward him I was able to kick his face over my head - he let go and started crying so I left - is that a 'win'?

Anyway, the two other instances are the relevant ones.

It was said earlier that broken hand = lost fight.

So, my second 'fight' - I got jumped, shoved by a couple of people when I tried to leave and then punched and knocked out. The person who punched me sustained a fractured 4th metacarpal. I'd say that I substantially lost that fight even though I was the one with unbroken hands.

Third instance was a couple of months later, a small group approached me and one came forward, swinging a wild overhead hammer fist. I blocked it with my left arm and a right hand hook/haymaker put him on the floor which ended the confrontation. What else happened? I fractured the 4th metacarpal in my right hand...

So, let's do some statistical analysis based on this sample of data. In 100% of cases where punches were involved the punching hand sustained injury but 'won'.

In the 33% of cases where a kick was involved that kick proved 100% successful in 'winning' with no injury to the defender.

Statistically, according to that data set, kicks are as reliable as punches but have a lower instance of operator injury 


To conflict this, I asked the wife to make a fist as if she was going to hit someone...

First attempt without thinking was like this:


 

Second attempt:

 


From seeing what goes on in the classes I attend, the fingers wrapped around the thumb posture is very common, especially in females - and it takes weeks of one-hour-per-week attendances to drill that out (and it keeps coming back).

Would a dislocated or broken thumb be more instantly debilitating than a cracked metacarpal?


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## Juany118 (Feb 22, 2018)

pdg said:


> At the risk of getting a reputation for dragging up previous topics...
> 
> I'm commenting on personal experience, not linking to videos or other published techniques because I'm hugely underqualified to judge either way.
> 
> ...




I would only say first that a "kids" fight isn't necessary applicable as children are more prone to being knocked out, as well as receiving concussions.

In terms of the kick we are again talking about a "kid fight" not a determined assault ("simple or sexual), robbery etc.  That assailant isn't going to start crying and just run away.  So again I fail to see how this would be relevant to the topic at hand.

You also have this factor.  
Benefits Of The Palm Strike - SciFighting

As shown earlier, and you also allude to this, a punch takes more training than a palm, especially if you are using an open handed palm, and they can both exert similar amounts of force (as the article above points out).  The main advantage of a punch is when it comes to "digging" into soft tissue, like going for a liver shot, but trading body blows with an assailant isn't a good idea imo, especially if you are smaller and aren't going to be trained as much as is necessary to properly execute shots to the sensitive soft tissue targets.


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## pdg (Feb 22, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> I would only say first that a "kids" fight isn't necessary applicable as children are more prone to being knocked out, as well as receiving concussions.



The applicable part is that a broken/damaged hand caused by punching doesn't necessarily mean that all is lost - there are degrees of broken which may or may not disable that hand. I didn't notice I'd damaged my hand until it started swelling later in the day.

Would an adult feel more debilitating pain from the same injury?

My view on palm vs. fist is that a swinging 'slap' type open palm is definitely a more natural action for most people and takes little in the way of training to learn to aim. But once you get toward a 'direct' palm heel strike - more like a jab/cross action - then the chance of a more severe wrist injury increases greatly.



Juany118 said:


> In terms of the kick we are again talking about a "kid fight" not a determined assault ("simple or sexual), robbery etc.  That assailant isn't going to start crying and just run away.  So again I fail to see how this would be relevant to the topic at hand.



I only really included it so I could make my partly sarcastic statistical analysis...

But that said, while my assailant was still 'a kid' he was older, bigger, stronger and had a bully reputation. He was used to picking his targets based on the fact (he thought) he could easily overpower them. Is that really so different to every adult attacker? Surely not every attack (simple or sexual) starts with the assailant 'squaring up' to his/her intended victim.

A kick to the face from that position was a new surprise for him - while an adult might not cry about it the situational shock will likely work a whole lot better than an elbow that they've probably shaken off many times before. 

Maybe I'm wrong about that, maybe it's possible to train in a few hours a smiley slight girl to deliver an elbow strike to a larger attacker's abdomen with sufficient force to disrupt them while said girl is off balance and under stress and their assailant is tensed in 'fight mode' - as shown in multiple videos where the instructor grabs a giggling girl from behind, leaning over her so she's fully upright then says "oof" and lets go when she gently taps him with her elbow.

A shoe in the face (delivered from a more 'real' position, where you're already leaning backwards and probably holding the attacker's arm that's around your neck) might just be enough 'shock and awe' to let the victim cry and run away instead.


Thing is, I'm far from an expert - everything I've said might be complete bs (it's only able to be substantiated by my experiences in those particular situations)...


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## Juany118 (Feb 22, 2018)

The problem is that the KO "win" is based on an age where the KO itself is easier to achieve due to the nature of human development.  Outside of that range the chances for a KO are greatly reduced.  If they are reduced then you are FAR more likely to have a conscious opponent while you now have one broken hand, a weakness they can now exploit.  When you add in the fact it is easier to teach the palm, and this is about a short term self defense classes, it seems illogical to teach the punch due to both dynamics.

One also has to remember that fighting "instincts" improve with experience/age.  So say you are doing a straight shot to the face.  The instinct to cover and lower the head becomes more firmly imbeded in adults that are used to conflict than with kids, so you get what this video shows early on...


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## pdg (Feb 22, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> The problem is that the KO "win" is based on an age where the KO itself is easier to achieve due to the nature of human development. Outside of that range the chances for a KO are greatly reduced. If they are reduced then you are FAR more likely to have a conscious opponent while you now have one broken hand, a weakness they can now exploit. When you add in the fact it is easier to teach the palm, and this is about a short term self defense classes, it seems illogical to teach the punch due to both dynamics.



If you have to teach a fist, don't try to teach a punch. It's just not going to work. I think we agree on that much?

If you're running with a small enough group you could possibly assess which ones have the natural propensity to make a fist and a direct punch and those who don't and short term train accordingly. 

Trying to teach a punch to someone with a 'slap' mindset is not a good idea.

But, is trying to teach a 'slap' to a person with a 'clench and jab' natural reaction any better?

Again, no expert, this is why I think large audience self defence short courses are fundamentally flawed.




As for the other points, I apologise as I now see I failed to explain properly...

Through my 3 personal examples there was only one knock out, and that was me. The two fisticuffs moments were between 15 year olds (easier to ko than a full adult yes, but a bit above 'kiddy' range).

The instance where I got a punch in - an attack was caught, a counter was made. That counter (which was probably as much push as actual impact, notwithstanding my fractured hand) was enough to get him off balance and fall over, while at the same time giving his accomplices slight pause for thought. In a 'street' scenario that pause is a good head start with the running and shouting.

The kick didn't result in a ko either - what it resulted in was more like "wtf, where did that come from? what just happened?" - again, a good running/shouting head start.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 22, 2018)

Just a couple of thoughts: 

A trained and practiced fist can be very effective, depending on where it is delivered.  By trained and effective, I think the meaning should be someone who practices using and toughening on a regular basis.  To teach it properly also means doing it in a manner least likely to cause injury to the striker.

A palm strike unfortunately needs training also.  And depending on where the strike will be delivered increases the training needed to make it effective, and not injurious to the striker (less so than a fist imho).  I don't agree with the gentleman in Juany118's link that the fingers need to be curled for every strike, and that is another training objective to teach.  I understand his reasoning, I just don't think it would be an issue often enough to spend more precious training time on.  Especially on an upward strike under the chin.  The fingers are likely to almost naturally fall into the eyes providing another opportunity to injure an attacker.

I think pdg has a good point about identifying those who aren't good fist strikers from those who aren't good slappers and teach them what will work best for them.  Even identifying which students are which will take more class time, but I think would pay off for the students in the long run.

Now we can all sit back and relax while waiting for Drop Bear to 'drop' in and show me the error of my ways.


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## Juany118 (Feb 22, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Just a couple of thoughts:
> 
> A trained and practiced fist can be very effective, depending on where it is delivered.  By trained and effective, I think the meaning should be someone who practices using and toughening on a regular basis.  To teach it properly also means doing it in a manner least likely to cause injury to the striker.
> 
> ...


I don't agree with curled either, my Wing Chun palm doesn't have curled fingers.  The purpose of the link was more in reference to energy transfer.  Some people are under the impression a punch inherently hits harder when it doesn't.  Previously I also showed a video regarding "fast hands".  All of that together is why I think a WC style palm strike is best with the teaining constraints.  Get it right it is as good as a fist. Get it wrong it's still enough to potentially rock someone enough that you can run, get it wrong in the right way your finger inadvertently went into an eye, etc.  Vs a punch that needs correct training not just with the hand but wrist alignment etc.  At MOST this will be a whopping 16 hour course over days.  Perhaps as short as 8-10 compressed into 2 days.  It's all about time management.


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## Buka (Feb 22, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> all this talk about slaps reminds me of a karate 10th dan i know.  he was at a ball game and 2 seats behind him some guy was drunk and obnoxious.  the security folks couldnt get him out of his seat to escort him out.  so this karate guy (who is also a LEO trainer)  get up and asks the guy to cooperate and leave.  nope ....so he slaps the guy and knocks him unconscious.  security picks him up and halls him out ,, problem solved.



Heh, heh, heh. Was it who I think it was?


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 23, 2018)

Buka said:


> Heh, heh, heh. Was it who I think it was?


It would not be uncharacteristic of anyone in that group. Lol. But this one is Canadian. If you were thinking of the Brockton dojo. He's not a 10th dan yet. Few more years before he does.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> The applicable part is that a broken/damaged hand caused by punching doesn't necessarily mean that all is lost - there are degrees of broken which may or may not disable that hand. I didn't notice I'd damaged my hand until it started swelling later in the day.
> 
> Would an adult feel more debilitating pain from the same injury?
> 
> ...


You make a good point that a broken hand doesn't cost much in the moment if you break it with a fight-ending strike.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> If you have to teach a fist, don't try to teach a punch. It's just not going to work. I think we agree on that much?
> 
> If you're running with a small enough group you could possibly assess which ones have the natural propensity to make a fist and a direct punch and those who don't and short term train accordingly.
> 
> ...


You hit upon one of the potential issues for classes like this. There's not enough time to customize training to individuals (for instance one of my long-term students had 8 years of Shotokan, so I didn't bother to teach him any strikes - just adapted his application). My experience with these classes is that people with a clinch-and-jab mindset don't tend to show up. The vast majority will be folks who are predisposed to slaps, or not particularly predisposed to hitting with any organization at all.


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## pdg (Feb 23, 2018)

The point about force behind a palm strike vs. a punch - that really depends on how that force is being measured. (Disclaimer: I haven't looked at the provided link...)

If it's simply 'weight behind it' then they're likely to be very close, and if you're measuring 'knockout power' based on a random placement on the head there's not much in it. That's because the actual weapon becomes the skull against the brain.

Anywhere else though, it's different. A palm to the ribs will spread the force from the strike over multiple ribs because you're dealing with maybe 6 square inches. A punch of the same force though, that's down to 2 square inches, so the force over area is 3 times greater.

Here's a very extreme example - get a hypodermic needle and measure the force required to pierce skin. Now get a brick and apply the same force (you'll have to support the majority of the brick's weight) - does the brick break the skin?

The area over which the force is applied is instrumental in assessing how much damage anything can cause.



oftheherd1 said:


> I think pdg has a good point about identifying those who aren't good fist strikers from those who aren't good slappers and teach them what will work best for them. Even identifying which students are which will take more class time, but I think would pay off for the students in the long run





Juany118 said:


> At MOST this will be a whopping 16 hour course over days. Perhaps as short as 8-10 compressed into 2 days. It's all about time management



If someone is an instinctive slap wielder you won't convert them to punching even if you spend the whole 16 hours on that single subject.

The inverse is also true though, my sister (who has had no training whatsoever, never even an hour sd "class") is an instinctive puncher. If she was to attend a short course where she was compelled to palm it wouldn't work. At best, in a stress situation, it would be forgotten and she'd punch - at worst though, it'd make her question her instinct ("but I've been told that's wrong") and that delay might stop her getting any strike in at all. When does a good intention become a disservice?


Considering (what I assume to be) the nature of this course, you're not doing it as a striking lesson. I imagine you should be covering situational awareness, de-escalation and all the other buzzwords - so you'll have a couple of hours left for the physical side.

Personally, I'd start the striking portion with "hit this pad", and see how they do it...


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## pdg (Feb 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You make a good point that a broken hand doesn't cost much in the moment if you break it with a fight-ending strike.



Although, like I said there's degrees of broken. If you crack your scaphoid you might not notice it while the adrenaline is pumping and probably be able to continue punching. Still broken though.

If 3 metacarpals snap and make a bid for freedom through the back of your hand, that's probably game over 



gpseymour said:


> You hit upon one of the potential issues for classes like this. There's not enough time to customize training to individuals ........ My experience with these classes is that people with a clinch-and-jab mindset don't tend to show up. The vast majority will be folks who are predisposed to slaps, or not particularly predisposed to hitting with any organization at all.



If there's not enough time to even partially tailor it, should striking (over just saying hit/claw/bite) be covered at all?

Is it correct to try getting someone with no predisposition to hit in any way to hit in any way?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> Although, like I said there's degrees of broken. If you crack your scaphoid you might not notice it while the adrenaline is pumping and probably be able to continue punching. Still broken though.
> 
> If 3 metacarpals snap and make a bid for freedom through the back of your hand, that's probably game over
> 
> ...


If they have no predisposition to hitting, at all, they are unlikely to get to hitting in that amount of time. I used the term "with any organization" on purpose - as long as they are predisposed to hitting, I can improve the "how" and organization of it a bit. The really timid, all I can probably do in a short course is improve the chance that they'll connect. They need more time and effort to overcome that habit and build something useful. For those folks, I want to give them a taste of the training, so they can make an intelligent decision as to whether they're interested in digging deeper.


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## pdg (Feb 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If they have no predisposition to hitting, at all, they are unlikely to get to hitting in that amount of time. I used the term "with any organization" on purpose - as long as they are predisposed to hitting, I can improve the "how" and organization of it a bit. The really timid, all I can probably do in a short course is improve the chance that they'll connect. They need more time and effort to overcome that habit and build something useful. For those folks, I want to give them a taste of the training, so they can make an intelligent decision as to whether they're interested in digging deeper.



If it's marketed like that then that's perfectly fine.

If the customers are coming into it knowing it's about self awareness etc. with a little bit of physical self defence (as well as being a bit of a primer to advance) - that's great.

If that's the format the OP was intending, brilliant.

The type that really rile me are "learn to defeat any attacker in 3 easy classes"...

I'm not entirely sure there's much of a middle ground.


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## pdg (Feb 23, 2018)

As an aside:

Now that the term "SD" has been used so much, I'm getting "SD event" adverts...


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## drop bear (Feb 23, 2018)

Juany118 said:


> The problem is that the KO "win" is based on an age where the KO itself is easier to achieve due to the nature of human development.  Outside of that range the chances for a KO are greatly reduced.  If they are reduced then you are FAR more likely to have a conscious opponent while you now have one broken hand, a weakness they can now exploit.  When you add in the fact it is easier to teach the palm, and this is about a short term self defense classes, it seems illogical to teach the punch due to both dynamics.
> 
> One also has to remember that fighting "instincts" improve with experience/age.  So say you are doing a straight shot to the face.  The instinct to cover and lower the head becomes more firmly imbeded in adults that are used to conflict than with kids, so you get what this video shows early on...



Hey video guy. How about you put your head in exactly the same position you did when he punched.

And then we will see what happens to your palm strike.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> If it's marketed like that then that's perfectly fine.
> 
> If the customers are coming into it knowing it's about self awareness etc. with a little bit of physical self defence (as well as being a bit of a primer to advance) - that's great.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that kind of marketing hype chafes me, too.


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## Juany118 (Feb 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> If it's marketed like that then that's perfectly fine.
> 
> If the customers are coming into it knowing it's about self awareness etc. with a little bit of physical self defence (as well as being a bit of a primer to advance) - that's great.
> 
> ...


What you speak of is exactly what I am talking about.  I would NEVER think I could teach someone, in as little as 8 hours, how to really fight.  My premise is "avoid, respond, run" not "fight to drop them".  So it's primarily about doing everything you can to avoid the situation to start.  If that fails basic and easy to learn techniques that can (nothing is certain) create an opening to flee.  That way they gain some sense of empowerment/confidence (which is part of "target hardening", which is part of "avoid" imo).  Then ram home the point that it is about escaping/running away.


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