# Witchcraft Growing Faster Than Religion's Big Three



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 1, 2009)

* Witchcraft Growing Faster Than Religion's Big Three *





*Author: *Carol Forsloff   *Source: *Digital Journal 




*Title: *WITCHCRAFT GROWING FASTER THAN RELIGION'S BIG THREE

While Jews, Muslims and Christians fight among themselves, one religion has darted in front of all the others to become the America's fastest growing faith.

The religion of the witch trials becomes religion of the future with the membership exploding, according to experts. This is bringing consternation to believers in the Big Three of faith. 

One expert claims that the number of Wiccan experts is doubling every 30 months. A recent book entitled "Generation Hex" by author Marla Alupoaicei declares that it will be the third largest religion of faith by the year 2012. This explosion of membership in Wicca has come about because of social estrangement, loneliness and the need to belong according to Dillon Burroughs co-author of the book. Although the West Coast and Salem, Massachussets is experiencing the most rapid growth, groups can be found all over the country, including the South and Mountain states.   [*Read Full Story*] 
 
Source: http://www.witchvox.com/wren/wn_detaila.html?id=20391


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 1, 2009)

I tend to disagree with this. Yes, there are alot of people trying New Age religions, but I don't think alot of them "stick".  There are so many out there, I think people move around a bit, and settle on a blend of what they grew up with and some other ideas they borrow from what they tried out. Book stores aren't exactly burtsing at the seams to epnd their witch section after all.  Popular? Sure. But to displace the "Big 3" in a few years?  I doubt it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2009)

Having been a Wiccan, I would tend to dispute that statement in the linked article.  Wiccans (witches) have been making it for decades, but I see very little intrinsic growth.

Not to mention the fact that Wiccans represent a very, very, small segment of the population - even double-digit growth results in miserly numbers.

It is true that Wicca has been recognized by the US Military (as has Satanism), which includes it in the Chaplains' manuals and which has agreed to provide the symbol of Wicca (a pentacle) on graves of fallen military personnel whose families desire it.

According to the recent Pew Foundation study, organized religion in general is losing members at a prodigious rate.  Catholics suffer the worst, but various Protestant denominations are also losing members left and right. Pew claims that the biggest 'gains' are made by those who consider themselves 'unafilliated' with any organized religion.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/26/whats-the-fastest-growin_n_88540.html

I find that especially interesting because the political parties are suffering a similar fate in the US - despite success by members of the Democratic Party, both the Republicans and the Democrats are losing members like crazy, and the third-parties are not really picking up gains - in fact, the biggest segment gains are 'independent' voters.

It seems to me that most people are moving towards not wanting to be affiliated with organized anything - religion or politics.

As far as Wiccans themselves go, they are nothing to be feared.  Wiccans are decent people who tend towards liberal viewpoints and who freely admit that most of their religion is 'made up' because although based on ancient religions, the actual religions they draw from have been extinct for centuries as actual entities.  They are 'recreations' in that sense.

Wiccans are all different, and are more often characterized by those differences than by their similarities.  However, they share some things in common - mostly.

They believe in pantheism, that godhead is in everything.  They worship godhead in the form of a Lord and a Lady, or a male and female manifestation of the Creator.

They believe in Free Will and their one Law, which is _"An it harm none, do as thou shalt."_  The true meaning of this is open to interpretation.  Some might consider eating meat to be 'harming' while others might not, for example.

Wiccans are witches.  There are no such things as 'warlocks', which they consider a perversion of an old Gaelic term for 'oathbreaker'.  Males and females are both considered witches.

Wiccans use a pentacle - a pentagram in a circle, as the outward symbol of their faith.  Some use a crescent moon as well or alone, although this can be mistaken for a belief in Islam.

Wiccans do not believe in 'only one way' to faith, so they accept all relgions as equally valid and do not condemn others as 'wrong'.

Wiccans do not believe that anyone needs saving, redemption, or rescue from sin, nor do they believe in the concept of Original Sin.

Wiccans have no 'hell' but they have a 'heaven', which is basically a Valhalla or Happy Hunting Grounds type of thing.

There is no hiearachy or official structure to Wiccan religions, although attempts have been made to create some.  Most covens are local, although they may also belong to a larger local council of covens.  However, they are not bound by the authority of the councils, which they are free to join and leave as they wish.

Wiccans believe in the 'Law of Threes', which says that whatever good or bad a person does is returned to them thricefold.  This would tend to make a believer abstain from doing bad.

Wiccans practice 'magick' (spelling intentional), in which they work to obtain their desires according to spells, which are like recipes.  They do not believe in a distinction between white and black magic, it merely being a matter of intent.

I am no longer a Wiccan, having returned to the faith of my birth (Catholicism).  However, I find nothing objectionable about Wiccans, other than that I frequently disagree with their politics, which generally lean to the left.


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## tellner (Mar 1, 2009)

The first time I had a kitten  I weighed her every day. Given the rate she doubled I calculated that she would weigh about 20,000 tons by the end of her first year.

Minority religions generally experience explosive growth early on. When you're on the exponential part of the logistic curve your percentage growth is big. The question is, what is the potential pool of converts? Eventually Wicca will reach an inflection point and start approaching a limit. I'm guessing it won't be a very large fraction of the population. 

The author is frankly pretty ignorant. Christianity and Islam are aggressive about finding converts. Judaism aggressively discourages them, so there isn't a "big three" "battling it out". There's a big two and one tiny relic. If you wanted a third it would be Hinduism which also doesn't go looking.


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## exile (Mar 1, 2009)

tellner said:


> Eventually Wicca will reach an inflection point and start approaching a limit. I'm guessing it won't be a very large fraction of the population.



Good point, T. One thing about steep growth curves: in the normal course of things, they _flatten out_. 



tellner said:


> The author is frankly pretty ignorant. Christianity and Islam are aggressive about finding converts. Judaism aggressively discourages them, so there isn't a "big three" "battling it out". There's a big two and one tiny relic. If you wanted a third it would be Hinduism which also doesn't go looking.



This was my thought exactly. Judaism is hardly very big&#8212;Shintoism has _way_ more devotees, if my understanding is correct that 4/5ths of the population of Japan follows Shinto religious practices (not necessarily exclusively, of course). That means, given current figures, that comfortably over 100,000,000 Japanese follow Shintoism&#8212;more than eight times the number of practicing Jews in the world. There are roughly twice as many Sikhs as Jews; More than thirty times as many Buddhists, and even more adherents of Chinese traditional religion than there are Buddhists... 

... Big Three? The guy has to be _kidding_. 

Or wait: maybe by 'Big Three' he means, 'Big Three among Monotheistic Religions originating in the Ancient Near East'. That _does_ cut down the competition for 'big three-dom' somewhat... :lol:


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## Carol (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm not a Wiccan, but having lived in the vicinity of Salem, MA on and off for several years...most of the consternation that I've seen over Wicca is from folks that are not from the Salem area. 

Salem does capitalize on its history...but the non-Wiccans outnumber the Wiccans by a large percentage.  There are many other active houses of worship, such as churches and synagogues, that have no beef with the Wiccan community.

There are definitely organized folks that wish to spotlight Salem as some kind of embodiment of evil, I've heard that photos of the  Halloween celebrations in Salem (think a month-long halloween-themed street fair) occasionally show up as slides in churches outside of New England as proof that the evils of paganism are alive and well.  One pastor from a large evangelical church came to Salem in hopes of reaching out to the Wiccan/Pagan community with dialog found himself himself disconnected, financially, spiritually, and organizationally from the mother church that originally sponsored the founding of his Salem church.

Personally I think the religious organizations in general have the most issue with jealousy (for lack of a better word) over the demographics. Wiccan organizations have a percentage of followers are single and in their 20s and 30s...a demographic that has been very difficult for U.S. based religious orgs to capture.


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## horton (Mar 1, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I tend to disagree with this. Yes, there are alot of people trying New Age religions, but I don't think alot of them "stick".  There are so many out there, I think people move around a bit, and settle on a blend of what they grew up with and some other ideas they borrow from what they tried out. Book stores aren't exactly burtsing at the seams to epnd their witch section after all.  Popular? Sure. But to displace the "Big 3" in a few years?  I doubt it.



That doesnt seem realistic to me, but is it maybe also a dissaffection with the 15th century mindset stuck is dogmatic mire that might not be helping.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Wiccan organizations have a percentage of followers are single and in their 20s and 30s...a demographic that has been very difficult for U.S. based religious orgs to capture.



If the 'jealous' groups had ever been to a Drawing Down the Moon ritual, they might not be so jealous - then again, they might be!

On a more serious note, many Unitarian-Universalist congregations are open to Wiccans and it is not unusual for Wiccans to attend services there.


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## exile (Mar 1, 2009)

One thing that I always liked about Wicca is that many of its adherentsall of the ones I've encountered, anywaybelieve that when an animal dies, its soul goes to the Summerland, where it lives in a kind eternal green forest land, never suffering cruelty or pain. I like the idea of a religion that makes provision for other living creatures that appear to possess personalities and individual identities. And thinking about it, I have to say that the Wicca believers I knewalmost all of them in Victoria, on Canada's Left Coast were exceptionally kind people.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2009)

Here is an interesting break-down of religion in America:

http://religions.pewforum.org/affiliations

If you click on Other Faiths and then on New Age, you will see Wicca at .3% of the US population.  Compare that to Unaffiliated at 16.1%, with a subset calling themselves 'nothing in particular' comprising a whopping 12.1% of the US population.

Now, if you want to have some fun (off the topic of this thread), take a look at the Comparisons tab on that page, then Demographics and then Income Distribution.  Whew, Jews and Hindus apparently know how to make the money!  Buddhists aren't doing bad, either!  A shortcut diagram is here:

http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=376

Oh, and by the way, back on topic, Pew says that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the fastest-growing religion in the USA.

http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=14974


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2009)

exile said:


> One thing that I always liked about Wicca is that many of its adherentsall of the ones I've encountered, anywaybelieve that when an animal dies, its soul goes to the Summerland, where it lives in a kind eternal green forest land, never suffering cruelty or pain. I like the idea of a religion that makes provision for other living creatures that appear to possess personalities and individual identities. And thinking about it, I have to say that the Wicca believers I knewalmost all of them in Victoria, on Canada's Left Coast were exceptionally kind people.



I like Wiccans, too.  I'm not one anymore, but they're kewl peeps in general.  And their music is top-notch, parties are great.  If you ever get a chance to go to a drum circle, give it a shot.


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 1, 2009)

If there is a boom in new Wiccans (which there probably is), I wonder how much effect the internet has had on possible converts going to the Wiccan religion.
That strikes me as a group that would have to stay hush hush, but could go loud and proud over the internet, which would provide a way for Wiccans to meet up, network, and socialize in general.

AoG


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2009)

ArmorOfGod said:


> If there is a boom in new Wiccans (which there probably is), I wonder how much effect the internet has had on possible converts going to the Wiccan religion.
> That strikes me as a group that would have to stay hush hush, but could go loud and proud over the internet, which would provide a way for Wiccans to meet up, network, and socialize in general.
> 
> AoG



Interesting thought!  In my case, I got involved back in the late 1980's.  The internet existed, kind of.  There were computer bulletin boards, though.  I got interested by meeting people who were into it.  There didn't seem to be any need to be hush-hush.  It's legal and all.  I don't know how people feel about it now.


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## jarrod (Mar 1, 2009)

i used to have several wiccan acquaintances; oddly there were a lot of them in hutchinson, ks in the mid 90's.  a lot of them were pretty silly.  if asked why the believed what they believe, they would just give you a list of what's wrong with christianity.  since then i've studied up on modern pagan paths a bit more & it seems just as valid (or more, imo) than a lot of other belief systems.

jf


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i used to have several wiccan acquaintances; oddly there were a lot of them in hutchinson, ks in the mid 90's.  a lot of them were pretty silly.  if asked why the believed what they believe, they would just give you a list of what's wrong with christianity.  since then i've studied up on modern pagan paths a bit more & it seems just as valid (or more, imo) than a lot of other belief systems.
> 
> jf



I've run into quite a few Wiccans who had bad experiences as Christians or with Christians - so that's not unusual.  And there are also lots of younger people attracted to the Craft for the magick or what the see as a rebellion, something that frightens their parents, that kind of thing.  But there are a lot of folks who have a more mature approach to it, as you've also seen.  And there are lots of generic 'Pagans' who are not Wiccans.


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## jarrod (Mar 2, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I've run into quite a few Wiccans who had bad experiences as Christians or with Christians - so that's not unusual. And there are also lots of younger people attracted to the Craft for the magick or what the see as a rebellion, something that frightens their parents, that kind of thing. But there are a lot of folks who have a more mature approach to it, as you've also seen. And there are lots of generic 'Pagans' who are not Wiccans.


 
butting heads with christians isn't hard to do in the midwest, as i'm sure you know.  the more obnoxious ones seemed to be sort of new, as if they were in a rebellion phase.  most of the more established one's i met were super-cool.  i sort of loosely classify myself as 'pagan' but not wiccan.  i think your early comments about anti-organization sentiments apply pretty directly to me.  calling yourself wiccan indicates certain beliefs, whereas pagan can mean almost anything.

jf


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 2, 2009)

There's a term for the ones who get into it to b "cool" or "rebel".
"Fluffy Bunny Wiccans".
They read 1 Silver Ravenwolf book, and suddenly know "all".

I've read a number of other authors books, used to work with Trish Telesco's husband some years back, etc.  I like the religion, but follow a different path myself.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 2, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> There's a term for the ones who get into it to b "cool" or "rebel".
> "Fluffy Bunny Wiccans".
> They read 1 Silver Ravenwolf book, and suddenly know "all".
> 
> I've read a number of other authors books, used to work with Trish Telesco's husband some years back, etc.  I like the religion, but follow a different path myself.



There are also the 'goth' branch Wiccans.  Not unhappy enough to declare themselves Satanists, but still heavily into black clothes, silver jewelry, writing long depressing poems, and working 'black magick' on mundanes who just hate on them constantly.  Or something like that.

I ran into a pack of them at a local shopping mall, sitting around being seen being morose.  I saw a pentacle around one neck, I said "Merry Meet,"  and I thought his eyes would bug completely out of his head.  No way could a 'normal' looking person know what he was!!!  OMG!!!  And etc.  It was kind of fun.


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## cdunn (Mar 2, 2009)

ArmorOfGod said:


> If there is a boom in new Wiccans (which there probably is), I wonder how much effect the internet has had on possible converts going to the Wiccan religion.
> That strikes me as a group that would have to stay hush hush, but could go loud and proud over the internet, which would provide a way for Wiccans to meet up, network, and socialize in general.
> 
> AoG



I would think, and hope, that the internet has been having a very large effect. These are not ideas that have to be kept hush-hush, or should not be, though I have no doubt that there are those intolerant enough to level violence against those who would express them. Rather, remember that, for quite some time, Christianity has had a cultural lock, and for very many people, this is the only idea that they have ever been exposed to whatsoever. When they finally decide that this idea isn't quite right, they were previously unable to find many other ideas - You got what you dreamed up yourself, or nothing, because everyone around you had the same idea. In a reasonably urban and cosmopolitan are, you might find some books, but still not have anyone to discuss them with. With the internet's ability to spread those ideas, you are no longer locked to those books that you may or may not fight in a dusty crate in the back of a bookstore. Now, you can see something new, and evaluate it for yourself.


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 2, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> One expert claims that the number of Wiccan experts is doubling every 30 months.


 
Regarding "faster growing." Let's say your religion has 100 adherents. In one year you make 10 converts. You've experienced 10% growth in one year! You would only need an additional 90 to make growth double!

Now let's say your religion had 2 billion adherents...

Pax,

Chris


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 2, 2009)

My mother insists I'm Christian, because I was baptized, confirmed, etc. Oh and had top marks in Sunday School. 
But I went athiest, agnostic, satanist (Lavey), BOC, Wiccan, Egyptist, Taoist, Buddhist, Shintoist, and Hindu since then.

My current path is a combination of all those I've walked before. I define myself as a Seeker of Knowledge, walking a Pagan path, seeking enlightenment, and hoping for the guidance of the Goddess in all of her forms and faces.

It works for me, but makes it real hard to find someone to officiate a wedding who can do that blending right.


And, lets be blunt....God has to be a woman. A man would have made it sooo much simplier, and used alot more duct tape. :rofl:


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## elder999 (Mar 2, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> ....God has to be a woman. A man would have used alot more duct tape. :rofl:


 
_What do you think *knees* are?_ :lfao:


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## CoryKS (Mar 2, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> And, lets be blunt....God has to be a woman. A man would have made it sooo much simplier, and used alot more duct tape. :rofl:


 
That would explain random acts of god.

"God, why did you let a tornado destroy my house?"

"Oh, I think you know why I let that tornado destroy your house."


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## tellner (Mar 2, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> My mother insists I'm Christian, because I was baptized, confirmed, etc. Oh and had top marks in Sunday School.
> But I went athiest, agnostic, satanist (Lavey), BOC, Wiccan, Egyptist, Taoist, Buddhist, Shintoist, and Hindu since then.
> 
> My current path is a combination of all those I've walked before.



Sounds like the JKD approach to spirituality 

At first glance the Satanist doesn't seem like it would play well with a theistic Wiccan approach let alone ego-deprecating Buddhist methods. How do you fit those into the same headspace?



> It works for me, but makes it real hard to find someone to officiate a wedding who can do that blending right.


Tell me what you want, and I'll come up with a serviceto fit. We can get the install started with:


```
./configure -deity=ALL -nodeity_opt-TRUE -flags=prayer -prenup=localopt
make husband
make wife
make install
```



> And, lets be blunt....God has to be a woman. A man would have made it sooo much simplier, and used alot more duct tape. :rofl:


Given the evidence I'm inclined to believe She is a beetle.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 2, 2009)

tellner said:


> Given the evidence I'm inclined to believe She is a beetle.



Ringo, or Paul?  The rest are gone, I think.  Oh wait, I can check for you.

which beetle
/usr/sbin/beetle
ls -l /usr/sbin/beetle
0 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2008-12-24 16:50 /usr/sbin/beetle -> /bin/paul

Paul.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 2, 2009)

ROFLMFAO!!!! 
You 2 are too much.


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## Carol (Mar 2, 2009)

Congrats on your semaphor, Bob.  Hope it doesn't go to /dev/null :rofl:


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## exile (Mar 2, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Ringo, or Paul?  The rest are gone, I think.  Oh wait, I can check for you.
> 
> which beetle
> /usr/sbin/beetle
> ...



Heyyou use Unix also! 

Come in and have a seat... lemme pour you a beer...!


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## jarrod (Mar 2, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Congrats on your semaphor, Bob.  Hope it doesn't go to /dev/null :rofl:



i love it when you talk nerdy to me...

jf


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## Hand Sword (Mar 2, 2009)

If we played out the scenario to its fullest and all 4 of the religions mentioned went to their extremes and the actions that have been associated with that through time.......I say GO WICCA!!!!!


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## jarrod (Mar 3, 2009)

tellner said:


> At first glance the Satanist doesn't seem like it would play well with a theistic Wiccan approach let alone ego-deprecating Buddhist methods. How do you fit those into the same headspace?



i wanted to come back to this one since bob & i have explored similar roads it sounds like.  from my perspective, ego & all other forms of dualism are illusions.  however, we have lessons we can learn from these illusions if we explore them.  satanic indulgence of the ego is an indulgence in illusion, but it is still beneficial.  

at it's heart, satanism as i understand it is really just a matter of developing the courage to walk your own path.  if your own path leads you to seek the obliteration of your own ego, then you can be a satanic buddhist!

jf


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 3, 2009)

It is easy to misunderstand Satanism, because Satanism misunderstands Satanism.

Taken on the surface, a Satanist would be a follower or devotee of 'Satan', also known as Lucifer or the Devil in most Christian belief systems.  And yes, I know that many Satanists and other occultists argue over that.  But just go with it for a moment.

Satan was the angel who fought with God and was cast out, to become regent of Hell.

So it would seem clear that Satanists are against God, and in opposition to Christianity.  Some Satanist sects do indeed do things that would make it seem so, such as their priests wearing Catholic priestly garb (Roman collar reverse-tabbed) and performing 'Black Masses' where the "Lord's Prayer" is recited backwards, etc.  An inverted cross is the sacred symbol of the religion, and a sacrament is desecrating wafers that have been previously consecrated by an actual Catholic priest.  That's pretty much anti-Christian.

On the other hand, there are sects of Satanists who see themselves as more followers of Lucifer, the light-bringer, the one who offered Eve something that we all now know and value - knowledge of good and evil.  Satan was not the 'bad guy' but was painted that way by Christians, according to these Satanists.  Satan was just trying to help humanity and informing us that having Free Will means we must be free to exercise it without fear of Holy reprisal (judgment day), or it isn't really Free Will.  Their Satan is just pointing out the lies fed to humanity by the Christian God and His followers.

And then there are members of other cults or religions (take yer pick) such as Astrum Argentum and so on, who embrace and blend the concepts of Satanism with their own, exemplified in England by men who belonged to such organisations as well as The Hellfire Club, people like Oscar Wilde and Aleister Crowley.  Many of them take great delight in tweaking the noses of offended Christians, so they'll wear devil costumes, complete with horns and long tails, and such.  Most of them don't dislike Christians as much as they kind of pity them, considering them weak-minded dupes or sheep.

When someone tells me that they are a Satanist, I don't really know anything - so much depends on what they mean by it.  Satanism covers a lot of territory.  What kind of Satanist?  What group?  What are your core beliefs?  And etc.

_"Do as though shalt shall be the whole of the law"_ is the single commandment of Satanism.  It is used by Wiccans too - with the _"An it harm none"_ bit stuck to the front of it.  Most Pagan religions, however, celebrate Free Will in whatever manner they see it most applicable.  This is in distinct contract to religions that put a God or Gods on top, and everything else below that.  Satanists celebrate only one Holy Day - your own birthday.


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## jarrod (Mar 3, 2009)

very true.  it's always interesting how people can understand the diversity of beliefs in their own faith but often forget that other religions don't follow a single dogma.  

jf


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## Sukerkin (Mar 3, 2009)

That (the above few good posts) said and agreed with, it has seemed to me that most of the self-confessed Satanists or Occultists I have met have been nothing of the sort. 

They have been akin to the pseudo Ninjerz I have encountered in my martial arts journey - big on pretence and word-fu but low on content.

Because such alternative spiritual paths on the surface seem to promise 'status' without actually having to do very much they do attract more than their fair share of shallow-willed posers. 

I'm not saying that they are any worse than a lot of the 'look how HOLY I am' so-called Christians I have also met but it is a point worth considering that a number who adhere themselves to any faith are looking to shore up faults and shortcomings in themselves the 'easy' way or are avoiding having to do any actual critical thinking on moral issues.

For myself, the only religion that has any personal value is probably Buddhism. All others are seeking to draw on the unprovable existence of a great, if hypothetical, external power to enforce compliance and exert their 'will' on the 'unbeliever'.

I like some of the concepts in the neo-Druidic Wiccan-isms but, in much the same way that I choose to acknowledge reincarnation or continued existence after death as energy, that's only because I think it's a nice idea. Doesn't mean it's real for an instant.

EDIT: Okay, there's a wrinkle of falsehood in my last paragraph there. I have personally experienced too much of what is termed Super or Preter-Natural events to dismiss such things lightly. However, my experiences are not proof of such things being real - just that my particular complex bundle of synapses has interpreted certain things in certain ways.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 3, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> That (the above few good posts) said and agreed with, it has seemed to me that most of the self-confessed Satanists or Occultists I have met have been nothing of the sort.
> 
> They have been akin to the pseudo Ninjerz I have encountered in my martial arts journey - big on pretence and word-fu but low on content.



You just hit the nail on the head.  Give that man a seegar!

You got your McCovens.  You got your pimple-faced Kobra Kai "High Priest" who only wants to get lucky with an attractive initiate or six.  You got your kids slouching around with the _"I'm so depressed, look at how depressed I am"_ clothes and the black nail polish and eye liner and silver pentacles and they're just gonna judy-spell ya.  Give ya the evil eye, is what.  Eye of newt, toe of frog, and you are in trouble, mister.  Trouble.

About the only difference is that the judy-choppers quickly get sorted out.  The judy-spellers don't face any comeuppance from someone who can actually twist a spiritual knot in their tail.  Or do they?


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 3, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You just hit the nail on the head. Give that man a seegar!
> 
> You got your McCovens. You got your pimple-faced Kobra Kai "High Priest" who only wants to get lucky with an attractive initiate or six. You got your kids slouching around with the _"I'm so depressed, look at how depressed I am"_ clothes and the black nail polish and eye liner and silver pentacles and they're just gonna judy-spell ya. Give ya the evil eye, is what. Eye of newt, toe of frog, and you are in trouble, mister. Trouble.
> 
> About the only difference is that the judy-choppers quickly get sorted out. The judy-spellers don't face any comeuppance from someone who can actually twist a spiritual knot in their tail. Or do they?


 
Bill,

You sometimes have the absolute best way of putting things


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## jarrod (Mar 3, 2009)

sukerkin is correct.  however i think it's fair to say that many of those who hold pagan or satanic beliefs may not co around advertising it.  much like some of the best christians don't make a big outward display of their faith.

jf


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## Sukerkin (Mar 3, 2009)

Exactly so, *Jarrod*.  

I have indeed met a few people over the years, who tread the alternate roads, whose beliefs I only discovered by chance.  The phrase "You wouldn't know it to look at them" holds true for many who have deeply held convictions.

This also holds true for more 'mainstream' orthodoxy.  The best Christians I have ever met are those who just get on with living their lives by the principles they hold dear.

As I have said before, the core philosophical princple, a la "Bill and Ted", of "Be excellent to each other" is hard to beat, whatever 'clothes' it comes dressed in.


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## jarrod (Mar 3, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> As I have said before, the core philosophical princple, a la "Bill and Ted", of "Be excellent to each other" is hard to beat, whatever 'clothes' it comes dressed in.



wow, lot's of "nail on the head" comments flying around here.  well said, sir.

jf


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## exile (Mar 3, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> On the other hand, there are sects of Satanists who see themselves as more followers of Lucifer, the light-bringer, the one who offered Eve something that we all now know and value - knowledge of good and evil.



So, it's Satan playing the role that Prometheus played in ancient Olympian religious belief&#8212;defying the all-powerful sky god to bring the benefits of knowledge (the technology of fire, in poor old Prometheus's case) to shivering humanity. And savagely punished for it as well. The difference was that Prometheus was eventually freed from his torment by Heracles; no such eventual liberation shows up in Christian theology for Lucifer, so far as I'm aware... but the other parallels are very suggestive. The later versions of the Prometheus myth, for example, explicitly identify a broad range of _knowledge_ as the distinctive contribution made by Prometheus to human development, and the essence of his transgression against Zeus (who comes off as a kind of angry, overbearing tyrant, compared to the Titan). And knowledge was what it was all about in the Genesis story, eh?


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 3, 2009)

exile said:


> And knowledge was what it was all about in the Genesis story, eh?



Knowledge and obedience.  I know, I know.  I kind of trip over that one myself.  Hard to reconcile with a loving God sometimes.  But fortunately, I can hold several diametrically opposed things in my head at the same time without blowing the noggin completely up.  The Red Queen taught me that.


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## tellner (Mar 3, 2009)

Bill, I'm reasonably familiar with LaVeyite Satanism - Satanic Bible, The Satanic Rituals,_ et al_. Had some interesting discussions with people who are Magisters in the CoS. What seems strange is how to get its fundamentally atheistic bent "I acknowledge no God except myself" to work with some of the more theistic strains. And the centrality of the self, the ego, would seem at first and even fourth glance to be at odds with the self-negating themes in Buddhist - and some Hindu - theory and methods. The approaches seem at odds with one another.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 3, 2009)

tellner said:


> The approaches seem at odds with one another.



You got me there.  I don't know anyone into Satanism myself.  Years ago, I brushed up against quite a few Pagans of various sorts, but didn't get too much into the heavy theosophical discussions (get it? yuk yuk).  I'm sure your point is valid, it fits with what I've read of LaVey, etc.  Theistic Satanism draws more heavily on older OTO and Astrum Argentum stuff, although both sides draw on Crowley.  LaVey, as I understood it, was more into the symbolism of the term 'Satan' as opposed to seeing Satan as a deity.

I was at that time hanging out with the Wiccans, a much more meadow-muffin type thing, although I was making quite the personal tour of proto religions and historical mystery cults, looking for answers or at least learning some meta-programming techniques, ala Gurdjieff by way of Robert Anton Wilson and Antero Alli.  Energized meditation was my thing, along with guided dreaming ancestral trip stuff (seems like a million years ago now).  Did my vision quest in 1988 in the Colorado Uncompahgre Plateau, found my guide.  Never put the demon to rest, though.

What a long, strange trip it's been.


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## jarrod (Mar 4, 2009)

tellner said:


> Bill, I'm reasonably familiar with LaVeyite Satanism - Satanic Bible, The Satanic Rituals,_ et al_. Had some interesting discussions with people who are Magisters in the CoS. What seems strange is how to get its fundamentally atheistic bent "I acknowledge no God except myself" to work with some of the more theistic strains. And the centrality of the self, the ego, would seem at first and even fourth glance to be at odds with the self-negating themes in Buddhist - and some Hindu - theory and methods. The approaches seem at odds with one another.



buddhism is fundamentally atheistic too, at certain levels.  hinduism in particular makes mention of the divine spark (_atman_) that lives in us all.  it's possible to interpret this divine spark as part of or the entire Self.  i'm not saying it's a common blend but it can be done without a spiritual implosion.

jf


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## thardey (Mar 4, 2009)

exile said:


> So, it's Satan playing the role that Prometheus played in ancient Olympian religious beliefdefying the all-powerful sky god to bring the benefits of knowledge (the technology of fire, in poor old Prometheus's case) to shivering humanity. And savagely punished for it as well. The difference was that Prometheus was eventually freed from his torment by Heracles; no such eventual liberation shows up in Christian theology for Lucifer, so far as I'm aware... but the other parallels are very suggestive. The later versions of the Prometheus myth, for example, explicitly identify a broad range of _knowledge_ as the distinctive contribution made by Prometheus to human development, and the essence of his transgression against Zeus (who comes off as a kind of angry, overbearing tyrant, compared to the Titan). And knowledge was what it was all about in the Genesis story, eh?


 
For me (and it's really not a common view), the temptation that Satan offered amounted to the idea of trading the "Image of God" for the "Power of God." That is, power is more important that the character to use it properly. I see the same temptation in American sports stars -- it's more worthy of praise to be able to score a bunch of points in a game, and have a bunch of money, than it is to handle that ability, influence and money in the right way.


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## Dao (Mar 8, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> For myself, the only religion that has any personal value is probably Buddhism. All others are seeking to draw on the unprovable existence of a great, if hypothetical, external power to enforce compliance and exert their 'will' on the 'unbeliever'.
> .



 Actually in Buddhism they believe in heaven.  They even talk about  levels of heaven.  So you can't see heaven then you don't believe in Buddhism?    





> Heaven. In Buddhism there are 37 different levels of heaven where beings experience peace and long lasting happiness without suffering in the heavenly environment.


  source:  http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma5/viewdeath.html


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## jarrod (Mar 9, 2009)

it completely depends on which type of buddhism we're talking about. at the popular level, yes; people pray to buddha, ask for things they want, give thanks for what they have, there is some sort of afterlife, rules about how to function in life...so while this is the most common type of buddhism worldwide, it is also hardly every imported to the west, probably because it really isn't all that different from how popular western religion is practiced. so i think usually when westerners refer to "buddhism" they are often talking about the zen variety, or one of the other more mystical-seeming types, which often don't include heaven. so you're both right.

isn't that nice! 

jf


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