# Live Blade Training



## BigPug (May 12, 2004)

A friend of mine was talking to an instructor at a school near me, and the instructor told him they do a lot of live blade training, showing him a bunch of scars on the hand and forearm.  Has anyone had experience with this?

My first thought was this is a gimmick.  I understand using a live blade to stimulate a little adrenaline during drills, but how much more can you really do without risking the loss of training time?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Let me know if I'm missing out on something...


----------



## kaliace (May 12, 2004)

Greetings, 



It is a genuine way to train. I have met several people that grew up training that way. I myself was tested with a live blade. It really does put it in a new level, but it is super dangerous. At one point I was losing my stamina with the drill, and the blade touched my arm. Wow!



I would not recommend this unless you and your partner and very experienced with all of the techniques used. 



Always remember when you play with the blade, someone will get cut. 



Michael G Olive


----------



## Andrew Evans (May 12, 2004)

I've heard that live blade training adds realism. I prefer live blade training for solo drills. If I mess up, I'll get a nick or two. 

I don't care for it during training with others because somebody will get cut in a realistic situation and it won't be a mere nick.


----------



## loki09789 (May 12, 2004)

I have heard this type of practice before.  Some only go so far as to tape a real blade so that the balance and feel of the weapon is real (though the tape may make it slightly different) while others train with live blades at very slow tempos and use the blade awareness and stress as a pace control technique (suddenly rushing through a technique isn't as tempting ).

I remember when I was teaching a group of students the first class for the empty hand vs. knife sets that I was using and a few were turning gray and getting whoozy with me demonstrating and explaining some of the damage with only an aluminium training blade.  I think the point is really that students need to be reminded of the realism and consequences of training - it isn't just 'cool'.


----------



## Emptyglass (May 12, 2004)

Hi there:

I've done this type of training before. However, the person feeding the drill, if possible, puts their finger in between the blade and the flesh of the receiver. That was you know when you've been hit, control is established on both sides, and the chances of a sliced vein or artery is significantly reduced. That being said, we only do this with each other if:

a. Trust has been established before.
b. Confidence is high that control will be exercised on both sides of the equation. No sudden flails or jumpy movements.
c. Techniques are first practiced with trainers.

All in all it does give me a keen sense of what the blade can do if it gets in contact with my flesh and definitely kicks my shifting and movement up a notch.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


----------



## Cruentus (May 12, 2004)

Training with live blades *for partner work* is not only unnecissary, stupid, and dangerous, but it is an inferior way to train.

Here is my take on live blade training from another thread:

_
A couple of notes though:

#1 Its completely unessicary to use your live blade for partner work. We've all tried it, and I think most will back me up on this, that training partner drills with a live weapon is stupid and dangerous. And... It actually hinders your training because your partner will be hesitent in coming at you with committed attacks with a live blade. Your trainer is for your partner work...that's why you bought it.

#2 DO TRAIN with your live blade, however, but solo work. Do train your drawing and cutting targets with your live blade, so you know what it feels like to draw and cut. There is nothing that will replace the feel of a live weapon.

#3 Having said #2, your trainer doesn't have to resemble your fixed blade exactly. For example, some of the guys I have been training carry the Cold Steel Recan Tanto, and they have the trainer that exactly replicates the Tanto. THis is good but not completely nessicary. Now you want your trainer to resemble your live blade for sure; in other words if I carry a 2 1/2 inch blade, I don't want to do all my training with a 12 inch blade. But, If I have a small aluminum trainer that is around the same length as my folder, then I am in good shape. The reason is because I am practicing my drawing and cutting with my live blade....so If I am attacked, my drawing and cutting will be there, and my partner work will fall right into place. I know some might disagree with me here, so I hope I am making sense.

Train, be safe, and have fun! 
_

Anyways, anyone who is showing you their scars to brag about their "live blade work" is a moron. I'd steer clear from them.

PAUL


----------



## MJS (May 12, 2004)

Yeah, it'll definately give you a different feeling, but like Paul said, your partner might not be as committed with a real knife as he would with a training blade.  In addition, the same intent isnt going to be there.  I'd get a training blade and apply lipsitck or something that is gonna leave a mark, and train with that.  Its better than training with a wooden knife, where you wont be able to tell if you got 'cut' or not, but at the same time, its much safer, and you will be able to see the 'cuts'

Mike


----------



## Emptyglass (May 12, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Training with live blades *for partner work* is not only unnecissary, stupid, and dangerous, but it is an inferior way to train.



Paul:

<shrug>YMMV. Your mileage (and opinions) may vary. From the receiver side, I've experienced no hesitation on the part of the attacker as the feeder is controlling the drill and as you said, hesitation would retard the progress on both sides.

Rich Curren


----------



## MJS (May 12, 2004)

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> Paul:
> 
> <shrug>YMMV. Your mileage (and opinions) may vary. From the receiver side, I've experienced no hesitation on the part of the attacker as the feeder is controlling the drill and as you said, hesitation would retard the progress on both sides.
> 
> Rich Curren



So with a real blade, you're saying that you're going to have the same intent as you would with a training blade, and really try to stab, cut, slash, etc, your partner???  Your partener is going to have that same mentality as a mugger on the street who really wants to cut you??

Mike


----------



## Cruentus (May 12, 2004)

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> Paul:
> 
> <shrug>YMMV. Your mileage (and opinions) may vary.
> 
> Rich Curren



True...I don't mean to slam anyone, either; I've done the live blade thing myself...those are just my opinions on it.  :asian:


----------



## MJS (May 12, 2004)

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> Hi there:
> 
> I've done this type of training before. However, the person feeding the drill, if possible, puts their finger in between the blade and the flesh of the receiver. That was you know when you've been hit, control is established on both sides, and the chances of a sliced vein or artery is significantly reduced. That being said, we only do this with each other if:
> 
> ...



Just want to make sure I'm reading this right.  Are you saying that your partner actually grabs the blade???  I'm assuming that you're still talking about a live blade here?  And if thats the case, someone is still getting cut.

Mike


----------



## Emptyglass (May 12, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> So with a real blade, you're saying that you're going to have the same intent as you would with a training blade, and really try to stab, cut, slash, etc, your partner???  Your partener is going to have that same mentality as a mugger on the street who really wants to cut you??
> 
> Mike



Hi Mike:

No. I think you missed the part where I said we use trainers. I also simply said I have done this sort of thing before and never said it was a consistent process. I think it was done more as a control exercise and under specific drill conditions. In truth, in my mind, there is no knife defense and there is certainly no such thing as a knife fight. There is simply attempting to maximize your chances against the knife in order to survive with your life intact.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


----------



## Cruentus (May 12, 2004)

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> In truth, in my mind, there is no knife defense and there is certainly no such thing as a knife fight. There is simply attempting to maximize your chances against the knife in order to survive with your life intact.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rich Curren



I agree with you there.


----------



## Emptyglass (May 12, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Just want to make sure I'm reading this right.  Are you saying that your partner actually grabs the blade???  I'm assuming that you're still talking about a live blade here?  And if thats the case, someone is still getting cut.
> 
> Mike



Hi Mike:

No, I never said he grabbed it. I said he placed his finger in front of it (it was a rather short folder). Control is exercised on both sides. In any case, as I said, I (as others have admitted) have tried it. I never said, or even alluded to the idea that this was a consistent practice. I merely stated that it does give you a different feel for what you are doing and certainly gives you more concentration for not making a mistake. That's all. I'm not endorsing anything here (or saying that I would or would not do this again), simply stating my own experiences.

Truth be told, an untrained criminal with a shank is probably a much more effective attacker than a trained martial artist simply because their intention and disregard for the consequences (the maiming/killing of another human being) is not paramount in their mind. You can only try to make your chances better through a variety of methods. I tried this one. Hopefully I will never have to find out whether it helped or not at any time in the future.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


----------



## MJS (May 12, 2004)

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> Hi Mike:
> 
> No. I think you missed the part where I said we use trainers. I also simply said I have done this sort of thing before and never said it was a consistent process. I think it was done more as a control exercise and under specific drill conditions. In truth, in my mind, there is no knife defense and there is certainly no such thing as a knife fight. There is simply attempting to maximize your chances against the knife in order to survive with your life intact.
> 
> ...




Rich- Thanks for the reply!  Yes, I missed that part.  Now, going on what you said about knife defenses, in your opinion, what do you think the best way to defend against a knife is??  There was actually an interesting debate on this on the Kenpo Net.  Just looking for your thoughts.

Mike

Mike


----------



## Emptyglass (May 12, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Rich- Thanks for the reply!  Yes, I missed that part.  Now, going on what you said about knife defenses, in your opinion, what do you think the best way to defend against a knife is??  There was actually an interesting debate on this on the Kenpo Net.  Just looking for your thoughts.
> 
> Mike
> 
> Mike



Mike:

The very best way?: Don't get yourself caught in a situation where one is able to be drawn on you.

Second best way: Run like hell. I'd rather be alive than dead but with an epitaph "He was brave but stupid".

Third best way: Use every possible means at your disposal to escape the situation with your life intact. This includes conflict of various sorts. That being said, in my mind, the blade is so under respected by many people (until they are cut seriously) that most knife defense is a lot of theory. Many people that will attack with a knife aren't going to be trained and they aren't going to stop when you call time. They are going to be an aggressive animal that wants to jab a sharp piece of metal into your body. That's serious. TV and movies reinforce this with bloodless knife/sword fights. Hellboy comes to mind recently. You get cut/stabbed, the blood will flow, gush, spurt and spray. Watch some video of a slaughter house some time (or pay one a visit for the full stink/sight/sound) to see what real cuts look like on a living creature under stress.

Also, I belive in the theories stated in Col. Grossman's book - On Killing. I'm not quoting here though. The closer one gets to the recipient of a violent act the more difficult it is for the aggressor to carry the act out. The loss of distance between the killer and victim breeds a natural discomfort between humans. Those who can overcome that natural aversion to plunge steel into someone's vitals, be covered in their hot blood from a major vessel and see their last gasp, rattle and breath with no problem (if they are not engaged in the defense of their own life or that of another which is another situation entirely) are a bit psychopathic in my mind and best avoided.

When I was an EMT in Western New York, I had the opportunity to witness the results of knife attacks in the ER and in the morgue. Later for that sir.

In a technical sense, I believe that if possible you should get something in-between you and the point/edge if possible. Garbage can lid, rolled up magazine, shirt off your back, piece of wood, belt, distance, something to keep metal off flesh. Then, fight like your life depended on it, because it does. Someone drawing a knife on you is attempting to kill you in my opinion. They can even do it by accident. They might not have meant to kill you but you'll still be just as dead. The chances of you ending up with a toe tag are just too stacked in their favor.

That was a bit rambling but did it make sense?

Thanks,

Rich Curren


----------



## MJS (May 12, 2004)

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> Hi Mike:
> 
> No, I never said he grabbed it. I said he placed his finger in front of it (it was a rather short folder). Control is exercised on both sides. In any case, as I said, I (as others have admitted) have tried it. I never said, or even alluded to the idea that this was a consistent practice. I merely stated that it does give you a different feel for what you are doing and certainly gives you more concentration for not making a mistake. That's all. I'm not endorsing anything here (or saying that I would or would not do this again), simply stating my own experiences.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the clarification!

Mike


----------



## Emptyglass (May 12, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Thanks for the clarification!
> 
> Mike



No problem. I'm interested to hear what you think of my last post.

Rich Curren


----------



## Cruentus (May 12, 2004)

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> No problem. I'm interested to hear what you think of my last post.
> 
> Rich Curren



All good thoughts, IMHO!


----------



## MJS (May 12, 2004)

Emptyglass said:
			
		

> Mike:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## dearnis.com (May 12, 2004)

asking for trouble; this is no different than training firearm retention/disarming with loaded weapons/live ammo.  In a drill context you can pull out some interesting and worthwhile concepts, but you get much more mileage with trainers.


----------



## Emptyglass (May 12, 2004)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> asking for trouble; this is no different than training firearm retention/disarming with loaded weapons/live ammo.  In a drill context you can pull out some interesting and worthwhile concepts, but you get much more mileage with trainers.



Chad:

No argument there. Trainers are norm when I do blade work nowadays.

Rich Curren


----------



## MJS (May 13, 2004)

And of course, you still want to have that aliveness aspect to the training as well.  Granted, when you're training with a real blade its a little harder, but on the other hand, you dont want your 'attacker' just standing there while you do your disarm.  

Mike


----------



## kaliace (May 13, 2004)

I agree that aluminum trainers are a great way to compromise. You get the cold feel of the metal against skin without all that nasty blood and pain. 



Traditionally though Live Blade training is not uncommon in the Philippines as I am sure you all know. It is a tradition. I know of Philippine men that were given a live blade to train with at the age of 6. What we think of as an unbelievable act, is just the normal course of a mans life in the Philippines. 



Again the trainers are a preferred method for training. Any live blade work should be left to individuals that have been working for many, many years with technique. 



Respectfully,

Michael G Olive


----------



## MJS (May 13, 2004)

kaliace said:
			
		

> I agree that aluminum trainers are a great way to compromise. You get the cold feel of the metal against skin without all that nasty blood and pain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good point.  And many of the Masters have the scars to prove it.

Mike


----------



## Cruentus (May 13, 2004)

kaliace said:
			
		

> I agree that aluminum trainers are a great way to compromise. You get the cold feel of the metal against skin without all that nasty blood and pain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Traditionally, live blade training was done...but not for sparring or live training.

For partner work, most used wooden carved daggers instead of live blades. Look at old pics of the Canete's for instance, and you'll see their wooden daga's in their left hand. Look at old videos of "Tatang" illustrisimo teaching at the park; he was clearly a blade player who used a stick to immulate his blade work.

You used wooden daggers for "play" in the old days. If you used a real blade, then you were no longer playing or even hard sparring; you were fighting to the death. And as to those masters with scars...I'll bet dollars to donuts that they didn't get those from "training."

The idea that in the olden days in the PI, that live training was all done with live blade, is a myth; an urban legend that us gullible americans are supposed to eat up.

"If you do that, he will be cut already!" - Prof. Remy A. Presas

"If you play with a knife like that, someone'll get killed." Manong Ted Buot

PAUL


----------



## MJS (May 13, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> You used wooden daggers for "play" in the old days. If you used a real blade, then you were no longer playing or even hard sparring; you were fighting to the death. And as to those masters with scars...I'll bet dollars to donuts that they didn't get those from "training."



Never said that.  When referring to the scars, I was talking about the fights that they had, not training sessions.  I would still think though that they'd do some training with live blades to get that feeling.  No wodden knife is going to give the same feel or get the same reaction of a real blade.

Mike


----------



## Emptyglass (May 13, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Traditionally, live blade training was done...but not for sparring or live training.



Paul:

I don't believe this is true for every FMA instructor in the PI (or even in the US). Perhaps some did and perhaps some didn't. However, to state that it traditionally wasn't done is probably speculation at best. I would think that each instructor taught in this manner at their own discretion and according to how they were taught by their own instructors.

Personally I've been told some do/did use live blades from beginning to end and some never do/did, and some mix it up. In my opinion (which is just that) I would think it varied immensely.

Rich Curren


----------



## Emptyglass (May 13, 2004)

kaliace said:
			
		

> Traditionally though Live Blade training is not uncommon in the Philippines as I am sure you all know. It is a tradition. I know of Philippine men that were given a live blade to train with at the age of 6. What we think of as an unbelievable act, is just the normal course of a mans life in the Philippines.



Michael:

This makes sense to me as knives are used more commonly in Filipino day-to-day life than they are in the major population centers of the US (according to the Filipinos I have spoken with on the subject) where modern American life has made hand tools much less necessary. Working in the fields, getting coconuts, fishing, opening bottles (of beer as well - if anyone out there knows what I mean by this in relation to tin roofs let me know), etc... all use a blade of one sort or another.

Thanks,

Rich Curren


----------



## Cruentus (May 13, 2004)

"This makes sense to me as knives are used more commonly in Filipino day-to-day life."

I agree that there is more general usage of the blade in the PI, and more of a blade culture there. kaliace said that "traditionally live blade _training is not uncommon in the PI" not live blade use.

I don't know to what degree live blade training is done in every area of the PI. I do know that a lot of credable masters don't advocate it. I think that more don't do it then you think, making the idea that "most instructors in the PI do live blade partner work" a myth.

I also think that it isn't necissary. There are enough trainers out there that are realistic enough to where you don't need live blade for partner work. Plus, you can tape the blade if its live, as I have done before, to make it more safe. It is necessary to do live blade training for drawing and target cutting. It isn't nesissary to go steel to steel for partner work, or sparring. Not only is it not nessesary, but I think it actually hurts your training because then your partner will not cut at you realistically, for fear that they'll actually cut you.

You all can say what you want, this is just my opinion.

 :asian:_


----------



## Emptyglass (May 13, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> "I think that more don't do it then you think, making the idea that "most instructors in the PI do live blade partner work" a myth.
> :asian:



I never said most or even many do this type of training regularly (I really don't know much beyond my own experiences and contacts, there are many, many styles of Arnis out there I know nothing about), just that what is traditional and what is not is open to debate. I think there are a lot of traditions out there in FMA and none of them is right or wrong.



			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> "
> You all can say what you want, this is just my opinion.
> :asian:



As is everything we all are saying as well. Many times the facts that people hold very dear are open to more than one interpretation depending on who witnessed events, when they witnessed them or whether they were present at all. The best someone who wasn't there can do is try to make the most likely conclusion from the information which they have available and choose to accept as the truth.

Rich Curren


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (May 15, 2004)

I do live blade cutting and thrusting drills on stationary and moving targets. Generally speaking I feel that interactive drill will a live blade is asking for trouble. I have done it, but with a very small and select group of people who I trust and whom trust me.

 :asian:


----------



## Sun_Helmet (May 15, 2004)

One should mention Medical Management Training in the same breath as Live Blade Training. If not, then the training is incomplete and irresponsible. 
Be advised.

No Live Blade training should be conducted without a third party (ies) witness, someone with medical experience (and the appropriate medical kit) with the type of injuries that WILL come with such practice, vehicle / emergency room plan...etc.


--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
-------
-------
------
-------


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (May 15, 2004)

Sun_Helmet said:
			
		

> One should mention Medical Management Training in the same breath as Live Blade Training. If not, then the training is incomplete and irresponsible.
> Be advised.
> 
> No Live Blade training should be conducted without a third party (ies) witness, someone with medical experience (and the appropriate medical kit) with the type of injuries that WILL come with such practice, vehicle / emergency room plan...etc.
> ...



Agreed.  :asian:


----------



## Cruentus (May 16, 2004)

I can assure you that my knife work is no better from my live blade partner work that I have done in the past. How much do you want to bet that my knife work would be no better or worse from live blade partner work if I were to do it in the in the future?

If your training effectively in the first place, then the same is true for all of you.


----------



## Cruentus (May 16, 2004)

sorry...miss post.


----------



## Cthulhu (May 16, 2004)

I personally do not advocate live blade training...mainly because if my wife were to ever find out that I had tried it, she'd kill me.

Cthulhu


----------



## Rich Parsons (May 18, 2004)

I train with a live blade solo.

In partner drills I use trainers. I do not believe the intent is there from the training partner with a live blade.

I know others have said the same.

Just giving my opinion as well.

 :asian:


----------



## kaliace (May 19, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> "
> 
> 
> I don't know to what degree live blade training is done in every area of the PI. I do know that a lot of credable masters don't advocate it. I think that more don't do it then you think, making the idea that "most instructors in the PI do live blade partner work" a myth.
> ...


----------



## arnisandyz (May 20, 2004)

No thanks.

I like what tulisan said, about it actually hindering training because the knife person has to now be 'careful' not to seriously injure the other person or each other if they both have knives.  I can see it as a demo gimmick - we've all seen it...cut a piece of paper to show its a live blade and start knife tapping, but for actual training I'd rather use training blades or a marker and go 8/10ths vs live and go 4/10ths.

What everybody said about solo training is right on too.

Andy


----------



## Emptyglass (May 24, 2004)

Hi all:

For the record, apparently someone on 5/20/04 anonymously wanted to tell me that I apparently never am wrong (or never admit to it on this forum is the intention I believe) via the reputation points.

So for the record, I admit to being wrong about something in the pure statements of opinion in the above conversation (except that I have tried live knife partner training and that I was a licensed EMT in Western NY which are facts). That should make someone, somewhere, anonymously happy.

Bollocks. :uhyeah: 

Thanks for the conversations on this topic. All of the answers were interesting.

Rich Curren


----------

