# Putting more into it



## PhotonGuy (Jun 8, 2015)

So with JKD or with any of the martial arts for that matter its been said that you can't rush it. Well, it does make sense that a person who works harder and puts more into it is going to learn it faster. For instance, lets say there's a guy who does JKD and he trains three times a week for two hours each time. It makes sense that he will progress and develop knowledge, skill, ability, and technique faster than somebody who only trains once a week for an hour each time. You wouldn't call this rushing it but the person who trains three times a week for two hours each time will no doubt learn it faster.


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## Steve (Jun 8, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So with JKD or with any of the martial arts for that matter its been said that you can't rush it. Well, it does make sense that a person who works harder and puts more into it is going to learn it faster. For instance, lets say there's a guy who does JKD and he trains three times a week for two hours each time. It makes sense that he will progress and develop knowledge, skill, ability, and technique faster than somebody who only trains once a week for an hour each time. You wouldn't call this rushing it but the person who trains three times a week for two hours each time will no doubt learn it faster.


PhotonGuy, do you have a question about this?  What kind of a conversation are you hoping for here?


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 8, 2015)

As usual your premise is flawed.  It's not about rushing or taking your time.  it's about the time it takes for the brain to absorb and create nural path ways.
How about doing a Google search for once.


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## drop bear (Jun 8, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So with JKD or with any of the martial arts for that matter its been said that you can't rush it. Well, it does make sense that a person who works harder and puts more into it is going to learn it faster. For instance, lets say there's a guy who does JKD and he trains three times a week for two hours each time. It makes sense that he will progress and develop knowledge, skill, ability, and technique faster than somebody who only trains once a week for an hour each time. You wouldn't call this rushing it but the person who trains three times a week for two hours each time will no doubt learn it faster.



I absolutely agree with that.


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## Gnarlie (Jun 9, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So with JKD or with any of the martial arts for that matter its been said that you can't rush it. Well, it does make sense that a person who works harder and puts more into it is going to learn it faster. For instance, lets say there's a guy who does JKD and he trains three times a week for two hours each time. It makes sense that he will progress and develop knowledge, skill, ability, and technique faster than somebody who only trains once a week for an hour each time. You wouldn't call this rushing it but the person who trains three times a week for two hours each time will no doubt learn it faster.


Some people can try as many times as they like and never learn...


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## Blindside (Jun 9, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> As usual your premise is flawed.  It's not about rushing or taking your time.  it's about the time it takes for the brain to absorb and create nural path ways.
> How about doing a Google search for once.



Yes, but in general if you practice more you will learn faster, yes there are exceptions, but I think it is a fair statement.


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## Jenna (Jun 9, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I absolutely agree with that.


DB, do you think this kind of intensive training like cramming every thing into a shorter time span would be suitable for, and should be made available as far as possible, to ALL students? Jx


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## Transk53 (Jun 9, 2015)

I would say that it is academic vs pragmatic imo. Generally the more you train you quicker you learn. Exceptions would be those that have bad short term memory issues. In that case a methodical approach is required and then broken down into more parts to aid by using smaller steps. You could spend an entire day on something, miss a step though by not remembering correctly at the start, time is the enemy. Some people do try as many times as they like, but they do learn, just in a different fashion. Abstract minds and all that. Of course though I mean real world here.


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## Gnarlie (Jun 9, 2015)

Depends on the person and their learning potential and style. 

Depends on the training methodology and structure, training the right things at the right times.

Depends on mindfulness, whether the individual is really focused during training or is just turning up and going through the motions. 

Depends how much the student thinks for themselves and analyses what they are taught to work it into their own style.

Depends on the desired end result in terms of depth of skill and knowledge i.e. how much is enough, is there a destination or is this a journey that never ends. 

There are a lot of factors that contribute to perceived success, many of them equally important to or more important than than time spent training.

Incidentally, this is the same topic as several threads you've already started. Why didn't you just revive one of those? If you were posting mindfully, you would learn from the responses you get and wouldn't have to keep making the same statements over and over. I wonder if you train in the same way... if you do, you can train the same one thing as often as you like, but your overall skill for other purposes is not going to improve.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 9, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So with JKD or with any of the martial arts for that matter its been said that you can't rush it. Well, it does make sense that a person who works harder and puts more into it is going to learn it faster. For instance, lets say there's a guy who does JKD and he trains three times a week for two hours each time. It makes sense that he will progress and develop knowledge, skill, ability, and technique faster than somebody who only trains once a week for an hour each time. You wouldn't call this rushing it but the person who trains three times a week for two hours each time will no doubt learn it faster.



Absolutely. If you look at the rare prodigies who got their BJJ black belt in 3 years or at Olympic gold medalist judokas or at UFC champions, one thing they all have in common is that they put in the hours training as if it was a full time job rather than a casual hobby.

There's more to it than just hours on the mat, of course. Quality of training matters just as much as quantity of training, but all other factors being equal, more time spent training = faster progression of skill. 



Steve said:


> PhotonGuy, do you have a question about this?  What kind of a conversation are you hoping for here?



I believe PG is still fixating on the zen-influenced advice offered to him in some of his previous threads advancing the opinion that extra time and energy  focused on achieving a black belt (or any other goalpost indicating a certain level of ability) is somehow counter-productive. Such advice might be sound in the context of aiming for zen-style "enlightenment", but it's factually inaccurate in the context of acquiring physical skills.



hoshin1600 said:


> As usual your premise is flawed.  It's not about rushing or taking your time.  it's about the time it takes for the brain to absorb and create nural path ways.
> How about doing a Google search for once.



It takes time to create neural pathways, but they get created a whole lot quicker with more repetition and time spent training. All other factors (natural talent, quality of instruction, etc) being equal, a martial artist who trains 30 hours per week for 3 years will be a lot more skillful than one who trains 5 hours per week for 10 years.



Gnarlie said:


> Some people can try as many times as they like and never learn...



In my experience, given adequate feedback mechanisms, a desire to learn, and enough time training, just about everyone will get better.

That said, many folks will plateau at a certain level because of a poor attitude for learning, inadequate feedback, limited time training, or a combination of all three.



Jenna said:


> DB, do you think this kind of intensive training like cramming every thing into a shorter time span would be suitable for, and should be made available as far as possible, to ALL students? Jx



I'm all in favor of having as many options for students as possible. That said, not everybody is interested in high-volume training, not everybody is mentally or physically prepared for it, and not everybody has a life situation that allows it.


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## Jenna (Jun 9, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm all in favor of having as many options for students as possible. That said, not everybody is interested in high-volume training, not everybody is mentally or physically prepared for it, and not everybody has a life situation that allows it.


Tony, what mental and physical preparations or condition would a student need to undertake this intensive "fast track" approach to a training? Jx


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 9, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Tony, what mental and physical preparations or condition would a student need to undertake this intensive "fast track" approach to a training? Jx


Well, it sort of depends on how intensive a "fast track" we are talking about. I train 12-15 hours per week. That might seem like a lot to a beginner who trains 3 hours per week, but it would be woefully inadequate (both in time and intensity) for a high-level pro fighter.

In general, here are some considerations to take into account:

Life circumstances and time: It's almost impossible to work a full time job and also train 40 hours per week. Even if you had the sheer determination to pull it off, you probably wouldn't be getting enough sleep to properly recover from the rigors of training. You have to look at your schedule and figure out what is realistic for your situation.

Physical conditioning: If you jump straight from being a couch potato to training 20 hours per week, you are very likely to get injured. Even if you are young and fit and athletic, your specific martial art will put specialized stresses on your body that your other athletic pursuits have not. I would recommend that anybody wanting to  engage in high-volume training build up to it by gradually increasing their training time and intensity. How gradual the progression needs to be depends on the individual. An athletic 20 year old body will adapt more quickly than an out-of-shape 40 year old body with lots of prior injuries. Getting good nutrition and sufficient sleep also makes a difference in making this adaptation.

Mental outlook: I'm not sure whether this is more a matter of mental preparation or just a matter of an individual's motivation for the process at hand. I suppose the two big questions are 1) how much work am I willing to put in to achieve my goals? and b) how much do I enjoy the process? I know for myself that even if I had unlimited time to train and perfect health, I would get burned out with anything more than 20 hours per week training and would no longer enjoy it. Probably most people would get burned out with less than that. Some folks could do more and still enjoy it. I don't know whether it's possible to train yourself to enjoy higher volumes of training, but even if you could - what would be the point? There's lots of other stuff to do in life. I guess the real preparation to make before diving into a high-volume training environment is to spend enough time training to know whether you will have any fun with it. We periodically get queries on the forum from guys who have never actually trained, but want to find some sort of full-time live-in training environment. They've got some romantic ideal of what it would be like from books or movies, but they don't know if they would even enjoy casual training as a hobby.


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## kuniggety (Jun 9, 2015)

I think the idea of you not being able to rush it has more to do with the idea that you have to be patient with yourself rather than xx hrs training vs xxx hrs training == different levels of progression. You will learn it at the pace that you will learn it. You may learn faster than someone else or you may learn slower. You may learn certain skills faster and you may learn certain skills slower. MA like any skill, is something that is acquired through practice... lots and lots of practice.


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## drop bear (Jun 9, 2015)

Jenna said:


> DB, do you think this kind of intensive training like cramming every thing into a shorter time span would be suitable for, and should be made available as far as possible, to ALL students? Jx



Yeah. Look if you can physically do it you will get results. I don't think it is a shorter time span. I think most people train pretty lazy.


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## Jenna (Jun 9, 2015)

@Tony Dismukes, pertinent and easy to understand as ever Tony thank you for laying these things out so clearly..

I want to ask you about mental preparation like you have said only I had not read anywhere in your description about intelligence.. Do you think is it relevant a students intelligence in order for them to achieve the same level of adeptness as others only in this shorter time frame? Thank you, Jx 

@drop bear, if it is only -or mostly- about physical abilities does there need to be time for the body to recover as it sound like quite a hefty physical demand on the student? or can muscle recovery etc also be hastened? Thank you again for your comment, Jx.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 9, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @Tony Dismukes, pertinent and easy to understand as ever Tony thank you for laying these things out so clearly..
> 
> I want to ask you about mental preparation like you have said only I had not read anywhere in your description about intelligence.. Do you think is it relevant a students intelligence in order for them to achieve the same level of adeptness as others only in this shorter time frame? Thank you, Jx



It depends on what type of intelligence you are talking about. Some people are wired to pick up physical movements faster, others may be able to memorize forms or history faster.

It doesn't make much difference as far as being prepared for intense, high-volume training. It's not as if someone of "lower" intelligence is going to run out of available brain space if they train too much in a week.

Think of it like learning a foreign language. One person might be gifted with languages and pick them up relatively easily. Another person might struggle learning a new language. Either person will learn the language faster if they move to a country where that language is spoken and immerse themselves in it then they would if they just stayed at home and took lessons for 3 hours per week.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 9, 2015)

Jenna said:


> @drop bear, if it is only -or mostly- about physical abilities does there need to be time for the body to recover as it sound like quite a hefty physical demand on the student? or can muscle recovery etc also be hastened?


Drop bear can expand on this, but good nutrition and plenty of sleep are vital. Professional fighters are also frequently known to rely on pharmaceutical aids to enhance recovery, but I don't think most of us push ourselves hard enough to require that sort of assistance.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 9, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So with JKD or with any of the martial arts for that matter its been said that you can't rush it. Well, it does make sense that a person who works harder and puts more into it is going to learn it faster. For instance, lets say there's a guy who does JKD and he trains three times a week for two hours each time. It makes sense that he will progress and develop knowledge, skill, ability, and technique faster than somebody who only trains once a week for an hour each time. You wouldn't call this rushing it but the person who trains three times a week for two hours each time will no doubt learn it faster.



This is pretty much the same exact thing as many other posts you have done.....much like December 19, 2014.

I have no idea what you hope to gain or why you seem to lack originality or why any of us have to continue to endure your constant repitition


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## Steve (Jun 9, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It depends on what type of intelligence you are talking about. Some people are wired to pick up physical movements faster, others may be able to memorize forms or history faster.
> 
> It doesn't make much difference as far as being prepared for intense, high-volume training. It's not as if someone of "lower" intelligence is going to run out of available brain space if they train too much in a week.
> 
> Think of it like learning a foreign language. One person might be gifted with languages and pick them up relatively easily. Another person might struggle learning a new language. Either person will learn the language faster if they move to a country where that language is spoken and immerse themselves in it then they would if they just stayed at home and took lessons for 3 hours per week.


 Have you guys heard of Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences?  This would be what he would describe as kinesthetic or physical intelligence.


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Drop bear can expand on this, but good nutrition and plenty of sleep are vital. Professional fighters are also frequently known to rely on pharmaceutical aids to enhance recovery, but I don't think most of us push ourselves hard enough to require that sort of assistance.



Yeah. Sleep,good diet,stop smoking and drinking. Otherwise doing something each day so the hard exercise is not such a shock.

Doing fitness and strength training so each session is not leaving you crippled.

And then just doing it.


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2015)

Otherwise ice baths,swimming,massage,yoga that sort of stuff.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 10, 2015)

Maybe I'm confused but I thought the OP was about learning a martial art?  As I read many of the posts it seems everyone is more focused on the physical athletic ability rather than proficiency as a martial artist. 
While athletic ability is paramount in sports and valuable as a martial artist it certainly is not or should not be equated to martial arts ability unless you are competing in a sport environment. Compare Yip Man to Jon jones..?? Does this mean Yip Man was not as good a martial artist?

When training in martial arts I agree 3 hours is better than 1. But I feel that as those ratios increase there is an effect of diminishing returns. Can we say then that 100 hours is better than 70?  If this were the case than even in sport compitition  we would have to assume to he a champion all one would have to do would be to put in more hours at the gym. BUT We Know This Is Not The case.
It is said that it takes one thousand reps of an action for the nural net in the brain to start to develop. After only a few hours those connections begin to degrade. So by a certain logic it would seem that more is better. but as any MA instructor knows it sometimes  takes months for an action to be preformed correctly.  Every time you preform an action incorrectly you are in graining and creating alternative unwanted brain connections and the more you repeat the stronger these nural connections fet,the harder they are to replace.

The mind needs time to absorb information. While similar to the nural connections of physical action this is not exactly  the same. The brain has to make cognitive connections to realize that "A"is related to "B" and this can sometimes he linked to intelligence or what I call awareness.  I have had students that I would verbally tell to do something like a small detail and these instructions will not be absorbed. As time passes there will he an "Oh I get it" moment where the student was finally able to comprehend and apply what I had been saying for a long time.  The brain just had not connected the Dots yet.

I also wonder about MA practioners who practice but do not study the martial arts. I call these "time clock" martial artists. They come to a class and punch in so to speak and punch out after class and do not think about it again until the next class.

They practice but do not study.  When people are questioned they usually say the most important aspects in life are health, wealth and relationships. But to really find a level of success in these requires one to study.  There are books on relationships and how to get a long with peers. How to eat better,  how to cook healthier foods. There are billionaires who have written books on how they did it. And very few take the time to read and study these things.  I see so many MA instructors spouting there skills and giving classes on women's rape self defense. And yet not one I have ever talked to ever read an FBI builtin on the subject. Or knows the standard  classifications of rapists. Have they talked to rape crisis administrators on what they should be including in these classes....few very few have. As a martial artist you should also study your topic not just show up and wait to be spoon fed by the instructor.   
MA is not just about doing push ups, sparing rounds  and bag work.

Sorry this turned into a little rant


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 10, 2015)

Jenna said:


> DB, do you think this kind of intensive training like cramming every thing into a shorter time span would be suitable for, and should be made available as far as possible, to ALL students? Jx



Well its not for everybody and there are limits as to just how much you can cram. The person who only trains once a week for an hour each time, they might have all sorts of reasons for only training one hour a week and it doesn't mean they're lazy or they don't want to learn. Maybe they've got a really busy schedule and they're only able to fit in one hour a week. Maybe they're focusing more on other stuff and they're doing the martial arts just as something on their side. But for whatever reason, they probably will not develop knowledge, skill, and ability as fast as the person training three times a week for two hours each time. And as for intensive training, just look at Bruce Lee, the founder of JKD, talk about cramming.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 10, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I believe PG is still fixating on the zen-influenced advice offered to him in some of his previous threads advancing the opinion that extra time and energy  focused on achieving a black belt (or any other goalpost indicating a certain level of ability) is somehow counter-productive. Such advice might be sound in the context of aiming for zen-style "enlightenment", but it's factually inaccurate in the context of acquiring physical skills.


Im talking about advancement in skill and ability in general not necessarily any kind of rank such as black belt. To get a black belt you also have to know what your sensei requires for it and this might involve talking to your sensei but that's a topic for another thread. There are two reasons I chose the JKD folder for this thread. First of all, I didn't want people thinking I was fixated on rank and from what I know JKD doesn't use rank so therefore people wouldn't have that assumption if I posted this in a JKD folder. Second of all, the founder of JKD, Bruce Lee, aside from being one of the most recognizable and admired figures in the martial arts, was well known for really putting astounding, what some people would call ridiculous, time, work, and effort into the martial arts. I don't know if you could say he rushed it, I wouldn't say he did, but the fact of the matter is he did learn much faster than most of his peers for the very reason that he put so much more into it. There is an account of him taking lessons from a kung fu instructor and mastering in three days what it would take the average student to learn the basics of in three months.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 10, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> There is an account of him taking lessons from a kung fu instructor and mastering in three days what it would take the average student to learn the basics of in three months.



Source please


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## Jenna (Jun 11, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well its not for everybody and there are limits as to just how much you can cram. The person who only trains once a week for an hour each time, they might have all sorts of reasons for only training one hour a week and it doesn't mean they're lazy or they don't want to learn. Maybe they've got a really busy schedule and they're only able to fit in one hour a week. Maybe they're focusing more on other stuff and they're doing the martial arts just as something on their side. But for whatever reason, they probably will not develop knowledge, skill, and ability as fast as the person training three times a week for two hours each time. And as for intensive training, just look at Bruce Lee, the founder of JKD, talk about cramming.


Was Bruce Lee not some thing special? or can anybody do the same? Jx


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 11, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Was Bruce Lee not some thing special? or can anybody do the same? Jx


Bruce Lee was an exceptional individual. As I said, training of such intensity is not for everybody.


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## Jenna (Jun 11, 2015)

Bruce Lee was SO exceptional and SO singleminded over his learning, his preparation, his philosophy and his physical training I would wonder if OP is not only 'not for everybody' and but not for most people???


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 11, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Source please


A kung fu instructor describes it in a video documentary about Bruce Lee. I will try to find the video on youtube.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 11, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> Maybe I'm confused but I thought the OP was about learning a martial art? As I read many of the posts it seems everyone is more focused on the physical athletic ability rather than proficiency as a martial artist.
> While athletic ability is paramount in sports and valuable as a martial artist it certainly is not or should not be equated to martial arts ability unless you are competing in a sport environment. Compare Yip Man to Jon jones..?? Does this mean Yip Man was not as good a martial artist?



I went back and re-read the previous posts, and I don't see anyone talking about just developing physical athletic ability. When I mention the necessary physical conditioning for intensive, high-volume training, I'm not talking about preparation for athletic competition (unless that's the kind of martial art you're practicing). I'm talking about having your body prepared for the specific stresses of your martial art. If you were to jump straight from training aikido 2 hours a week to training 20 hours a week, you would stand a decent chance of being injured from the stress of taking that many falls and receiving that many joint locks. If you were training Kali, you would probably end up with blisters all over your hands and possibly have issues with your wrists or rotator cuffs from so much swinging sticks. Your body needs time to adapt to this kind of use.



hoshin1600 said:


> When training in martial arts I agree 3 hours is better than 1. But I feel that as those ratios increase there is an effect of diminishing returns. Can we say then that 100 hours is better than 70? If this were the case than even in sport compitition we would have to assume to he a champion all one would have to do would be to put in more hours at the gym. BUT We Know This Is Not The case.



There is a point of diminishing returns in terms of hours invested. However that point is beyond what most people will ever reach. For most of us, we will run out of available time in our schedule or the ability to physically recuperate before we reach the point where additional hours of practice in the week are helpful in building skill. 100 hours per week might not be better than 70 hours, but 30 hours per week is a whole lot better than 5 for building skill.

Regarding sport competition, there absolutely is a drive among serious athletes to train harder and longer than the other guy. Matches are often won by virtue of one athlete being willing to spend more work on preparation than the other guy. At the world champion level, however, all the competitors are already training so hard that they are pushing the limits of the human body to recover. They have to walk a fine line - try to be better prepared than the other guy without breaking their own bodies down faster than they can rebuild.



hoshin1600 said:


> I also wonder about MA practioners who practice but do not study the martial arts. I call these "time clock" martial artists. They come to a class and punch in so to speak and punch out after class and do not think about it again until the next class.



Yep. I'm a big fan of supplementing mat time with time spent studying outside the dojo. Time spent reading, watching videos, asking questions, thinking, and visualizing can absolutely help get the most out of your mat time.

I do suspect that people who spend a lot of time on the mat are also more likely to spend time on outside study as well, but I don't know any way to easily verify that.



hoshin1600 said:


> I see so many MA instructors spouting there skills and giving classes on women's rape self defense. And yet not one I have ever talked to ever read an FBI builtin on the subject. Or knows the standard classifications of rapists. Have they talked to rape crisis administrators on what they should be including in these classes....few very few have. As a martial artist you should also study your topic not just show up and wait to be spoon fed by the instructor.



As Chris Parker is fond of pointing out, martial arts expertise is not necessarily well correlated with real world self-defense expertise beyond the context of the specific martial art. Understanding the dynamics behind rape would be a good example of that.  This is not necessarily a problem - but it can be one when an instructor thinks that having a black belt in xyz-jutsu automatically makes him an expert in how violent crimes occur. (It also is a problem when an instructor thinks that having that black belt makes him qualified as a life coach, an "enlightened master", or anything else beyond the specific skills that went into achieving the rank.)


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## Blindside (Jun 11, 2015)

I have been an instructor for something like 14 years now, in that time the number of students I have had that I have had to say "hey, stop doing all that practicing at home, you are ingraining bad habits" is zero.  Has someone practiced something incorrectly?  Sure, but then we catch it, fix it, and go on from there. 

Anyone actually have examples of where your students progressed more slowly or not benefitted for having practiced alot and tried to get their reps in?


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## Steve (Jun 11, 2015)

I would say that as far as the point of dimishing returns is concerned, it depends upon how the time is used.

If you spend 8 hours trying to learn new things, you're certainly going to reach a functional limit to what can be absorbed. But, an hour learning something new and 7 hours practicing that thing could be very useful.  Look at how people learn to do a job.  8 hour day for a new employee.  I teach you to perform a task and you do it.  Over and over.   Then I teach you something else.  There's no point of diminishing returns on your learning, provided I don't throw too much at you all at once in an information dump.


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## Gnarlie (Jun 11, 2015)

Steve said:


> I would say that as far as the point of dimishing returns is concerned, it depends upon how the time is used.
> 
> If you spend 8 hours trying to learn new things, you're certainly going to reach a functional limit to what can be absorbed. But, an hour learning something new and 7 hours practicing that thing could be very useful.  Look at how people learn to do a job.  8 hour day for a new employee.  I teach you to perform a task and you do it.  Over and over.   Then I teach you something else.  There's no point of diminishing returns on your learning, provided I don't throw too much at you all at once in an information dump.


That depends on the skill in question in terms of practicability. Some things need to be practiced little and often, some things just need volume drilling, some things need time between to bed in. Agree with your point though, the relative gains would depend on having sensibly structured training.

I do think that time without training is a factor too. Sometimes just sleeping on a newly learned skill can make it click the next time.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 11, 2015)

I don't want to misrepresent myself. I have always put in more time than everyone else that was training. If the standard training was twice a week I was there five, if people were at the dojo for 2 hours, I was there four hours.  I will do more investigation into this, but something tells me that the brain is most efficient at learning a skill with XX hours repeated every day and that to double those hours a day would not shorten the time it takes to learn that skill.
But like was said the way the time is used is important.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 11, 2015)

this HTML class. Value is http://www.bulletpro
Do we wish to debate music is different than MA?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 11, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> this HTML class. Value is http://www.bulletpro
> Do we wish to debate music is different than MA?


I think your link is broken.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 11, 2015)

Ok so Google as always has the answers, like I said in my first post. I looked at a few studies and sights. You can Google it yourself like I did. 
"Optimal practice time to learn a skill"
The takeaway I got was...
Even for top world class performers across many topics,
Mindful "deliberate practice" was the key. Mindless practice was counter productive as it in grains bad habits. Mindful practice  of one hour sessions totaling no more than 4 hours a day is best. The greatest benifits were gained in the first 20 minutes and would decline the longer practice was done.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 11, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> Ok so Google as always has the answers, like I said in my first post. I looked at a few studies and sights. You can Google it yourself like I did.
> "Optimal practice time to learn a skill"
> The takeaway I got was...
> Even for top world class performers across many topics,
> Mindful "deliberate practice" was the key. Mindless practice was counter productive as it in grains bad habits. Mindful practice  of one hour sessions totaling no more than 4 hours a day is best. The greatest benifits were gained in the first 20 minutes and would decline the longer practice was done.


 So if that is accurate (and I suspect there may be quite a bit of individual variation in play), then the optimum time spent training for the fastest possible progress in developing pure skill* would come out to about 28 hours of mindful practice per week.  That's pretty close to the 30 hours I mentioned in my previous comment. Also, most people will run out of time in their schedule, willpower, or the ability to physically recover before they hit that level of training on a consistent basis.

*(additional training time could be spent on building physical conditioning, mental fortitude, or historical knowledge, but we're just talking about skill here.)


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 11, 2015)

From what I read the key is being Mindful which seems to me as having a purpose in training, stopping when somthing isn't right and correcting it. But it said this takes a lot of concentration and is hard to sustain, thus the one hour training session. Keep in mind that the four hours was for world class people in their field.  Like top concert pianists and Olympian types. One sight stated 20 minutes a day is all the average person needs but this was a Forbes mag article and seemed be promoting his book.


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## drop bear (Jun 11, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Bruce Lee was SO exceptional and SO singleminded over his learning, his preparation, his philosophy and his physical training I would wonder if OP is not only 'not for everybody' and but not for most people???



No you will still get results reflecting good training. You might even become special your self.

Hard work does go a long way towards being good.


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## drop bear (Jun 11, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> Ok so Google as always has the answers, like I said in my first post. I looked at a few studies and sights. You can Google it yourself like I did.
> "Optimal practice time to learn a skill"
> The takeaway I got was...
> Even for top world class performers across many topics,
> Mindful "deliberate practice" was the key. Mindless practice was counter productive as it in grains bad habits. Mindful practice  of one hour sessions totaling no more than 4 hours a day is best. The greatest benifits were gained in the first 20 minutes and would decline the longer practice was done.



Here is a thing. Mindfull practice takes conditioning. One of the reasons I do fitness. So I am not that guy standing in the corner getting his breath back.

Sparring is evident of that. If I do ten rounds I will be better than if I do two.


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## Blindside (Jun 11, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> I don't want to misrepresent myself. I have always put in more time than everyone else that was training. If the standard training was twice a week I was there five, if people were at the dojo for 2 hours, I was there four hours.  I will do more investigation into this, but something tells me that the brain is most efficient at learning a skill with XX hours repeated every day and that to double those hours a day would not shorten the time it takes to learn that skill.
> But like was said the way the time is used is important.



There may be some optimal time, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't continue to learn, it just wouldn't be as efficient.  But from your experience did your added practice time allow you to progress in your chosen martial art faster than your classmates?


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 12, 2015)

Blindside said:


> There may be some optimal time, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't continue to learn, it just wouldn't be as efficient.  But from your experience did your added practice time allow you to progress in your chosen martial art faster than your classmates?



My opinion is that more practice time is a factor when it comes to improvement but not a stand alone metric. I feel other factors are more important.  As for myself when I first started the defining factor for me was that I kept a note book that I would write everything down in. I found out many years layer that this was a common trait  many successful people in their respective field.  A second important factor was my determination and self confidence. Natural ability plays a major role.  My own personal journey is unique in that I was 13 years old working out with full adults. I don't think I was any better than anyone else else.  But I did out last everyone.     so I got better because everyone else quit and im still going.  I am not a competitive sport martial artist so I  may have a different view point than those who are.


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 12, 2015)

I don't practice JKD but I imagine this is a fairly universal thing.....
There is sort of a "law of diminishing returns" that comes into play wherein there is no longer an equal correlation between time / effort invested and visible progress as you ramp it up. This point can be different for different individuals. Some people can train 3 hours daily and see incredible progress; for some individuals they would not gain much more than had they just stopped at 1-2 hours daily, to make an example. The brain can only adapt so much so quickly, and the body is only capable of so much as well. I would imagine Bruce Lee, as well as others, were / are elite in the sense their minds and bodies could adapt and maximize their training.

Ask someone to punch a bag 500 times per day, every day. Its hard but gets easier and instills the mechanics of punching, dissipating force, etc. Then ask that person to punch a bag 1000 times instead, even if ramped up gradually...... they are more likely to have their technique go to $&!! as they push harder, rather than continue to make progress in the same manner that have made previously. The correlation between work put in and progress narrows as it is ramped up.

That said, I am jealous of a fellow classmate of mine who can make it to class every weekday, and even early for private instruction. He has surpassed 2-3 year students within 1 year (in skill, not grade)  with steady growth and not the same plateaus and smaller steps older students had to break thru.


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 13, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I don't practice JKD but I imagine this is a fairly universal thing.....
> There is sort of a "law of diminishing returns" that comes into play wherein there is no longer an equal correlation between time / effort invested and visible progress as you ramp it up. This point can be different for different individuals. Some people can train 3 hours daily and see incredible progress; for some individuals they would not gain much more than had they just stopped at 1-2 hours daily, to make an example. The brain can only adapt so much so quickly, and the body is only capable of so much as well. I would imagine Bruce Lee, as well as others, were / are elite in the sense their minds and bodies could adapt and maximize their training.
> 
> Ask someone to punch a bag 500 times per day, every day. Its hard but gets easier and instills the mechanics of punching, dissipating force, etc. Then ask that person to punch a bag 1000 times instead, even if ramped up gradually...... they are more likely to have their technique go to $&!! as they push harder, rather than continue to make progress in the same manner that have made previously. The correlation between work put in and progress narrows as it is ramped up.
> ...



Something to be said about this diminishing returns thing. It might be obvious, but I feel the need to point it out.

If I'm doing some exercise, benchpress, squats, running, whatever, it's not the initial moments that matter the most. I need to get past these initial sets to get to the hard part that will really push me further.
Obviously, I'm going to reach a point where I can, technically speaking, continue the exercise, but I'm asking for injury or a huge recovery time. But until that apex of fatigue is reached, I wouldn't get nearly as much out of it as I could. I would  say that until that apex is reached, it's actually the opposite of diminishing returns. 

Since we don't want to dilute technique with bad form from fatigue (alliteration!) might time be better spent doing exercise instead of practice to push ourselves past that physical apex where skill starts to diminish, if so desired?


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 15, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Something to be said about this diminishing returns thing. It might be obvious, but I feel the need to point it out.
> 
> If I'm doing some exercise, benchpress, squats, running, whatever, it's not the initial moments that matter the most. I need to get past these initial sets to get to the hard part that will really push me further.
> Obviously, I'm going to reach a point where I can, technically speaking, continue the exercise, but I'm asking for injury or a huge recovery time. But until that apex of fatigue is reached, I wouldn't get nearly as much out of it as I could. I would  say that until that apex is reached, it's actually the opposite of diminishing returns.
> ...



Valid point and question. But martial arts is more than just physical challenge, so that is only one limitation that presents itself. There are brain pathways being formed thru repititon, muscle memory being developed, touch reflex (expecially within my Wing Chun experience), etc. Hard to produce data to prove it, but it seems like your body can only do so much so quickly when it comes to some of those other barriers. A lot of it iss mental, or the will, even. My ability to keep and execute proper form dimishes greatly at my limits, and when form calls apart the practice falls apart (with the exception of maybe heavy sparring, where you learn to just keep pushing no matter what happens with your form and structure).
If martial arts were more like power lifting or running, then yes it would be as simple as that last 5-10% at or near our body's peak, or attempting to push past our limits would be what produces gains.


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 18, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> Valid point and question. But martial arts is more than just physical challenge, so that is only one limitation that presents itself. There are brain pathways being formed thru repititon, muscle memory being developed, touch reflex (expecially within my Wing Chun experience), etc. Hard to produce data to prove it, but it seems like your body can only do so much so quickly when it comes to some of those other barriers. A lot of it iss mental, or the will, even. My ability to keep and execute proper form dimishes greatly at my limits, and when form calls apart the practice falls apart (with the exception of maybe heavy sparring, where you learn to just keep pushing no matter what happens with your form and structure).
> If martial arts were more like power lifting or running, then yes it would be as simple as that last 5-10% at or near our body's peak, or attempting to push past our limits would be what produces gains.



Agreed. There is only so much your mind can absorb in a certain period of time. 

This didn't occur to me until just now. Should exercise (weight lifting etc.) be kept on a different day from martial arts to get the most possible muscle memory ingrained in one day? Or do you think that sort of exercise wouldn't make a difference in that sense?


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## Blindside (Jun 18, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Agreed. There is only so much your mind can absorb in a certain period of time.
> 
> This didn't occur to me until just now. Should exercise (weight lifting etc.) be kept on a different day from martial arts to get the most possible muscle memory ingrained in one day? Or do you think that sort of exercise wouldn't make a difference in that sense?



I think it matters, my workouts are on different days than my classes.  If you are too physically exhausted to practice your technique properly, or tired enough that you cannot get good reps in then your practice isn't going to be very valuable.


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## Orange Lightning (Jun 18, 2015)

Blindside said:


> I think it matters, my workouts are on different days than my classes.  If you are too physically exhausted to practice your technique properly, or tired enough that you cannot get good reps in then your practice isn't going to be very valuable.



It made sense to me in the way that technique will be degraded when tired. Even though I've experienced the issue, I forgot to consider that a lack of energy will slow down my reps and sets. Supersetting really goes out the window doesn't it?


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 18, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Bruce Lee was SO exceptional and SO singleminded over his learning, his preparation, his philosophy and his physical training I would wonder if OP is not only 'not for everybody' and but not for most people???



The point Im making is that the harder somebody works and the more time and effort they put into it, the faster they're going to learn and the faster they're going to accumulate knowledge and skill. Bruce Lee is an extreme example just like Bobby Fischer with Chess and most people are not going to take it to anywhere near his level but the bottom line is that the more you put into it the more you get out of it and you get it faster within limits. As its been said on this thread there comes a point when you hit diminishing returns. Training 100 hours a week is really overdoing it and you will probably end up hurting yourself and it will be detrimental.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 18, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> The point Im making is that the harder somebody works and the more time and effort they put into it, the faster they're going to learn and the faster they're going to accumulate knowledge and skill.



Not necessarily. There are some people who will just never get it.


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## Blindside (Jun 18, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not necessarily. There are some people who will just never get it.



Of course you can find an exception to the rule, but in general I would agree with the statement, those who put more time and effort in the faster they are going to learn.  Are you really saying that this is an unusual statement?


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 18, 2015)

Blindside said:


> Of course you can find an exception to the rule, but in general I would agree with the statement, those who put more time and effort in the faster they are going to learn.  Are you really saying that this is an unusual statement?



No. I am saying exactly what I wrote. 
Worded as a possibility or even a probability, it's perfectly correct. Written (as it is in the OP) as an absolute, it is incorrect.
The point of diminishing returns is not really an exception. It applies to everybody. Exactly where that point lies varies widely, but it nonetheless exists for all of us.


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## drop bear (Jun 19, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Something to be said about this diminishing returns thing. It might be obvious, but I feel the need to point it out.
> 
> If I'm doing some exercise, benchpress, squats, running, whatever, it's not the initial moments that matter the most. I need to get past these initial sets to get to the hard part that will really push me further.
> Obviously, I'm going to reach a point where I can, technically speaking, continue the exercise, but I'm asking for injury or a huge recovery time. But until that apex of fatigue is reached, I wouldn't get nearly as much out of it as I could. I would  say that until that apex is reached, it's actually the opposite of diminishing returns.
> ...



If you were to compete. You will generally get to that point within ten seconds.

So training fatigued may get you used to fighting hard.

Otherwise you don't have to have poor technique just because you are tired. You can still be mindful of it.


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## drop bear (Jun 19, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not necessarily. There are some people who will just never get it.



And there are talented guys who wont be any good because they don't work hard.


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## Jenna (Jun 19, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> The point Im making is that the harder somebody works and the more time and effort they put into it, the faster they're going to learn and the faster they're going to accumulate knowledge and skill. Bruce Lee is an extreme example just like Bobby Fischer with Chess and most people are not going to take it to anywhere near his level but the bottom line is that the more you put into it the more you get out of it and you get it faster within limits. As its been said on this thread there comes a point when you hit diminishing returns. Training 100 hours a week is really overdoing it and you will probably end up hurting yourself and it will be detrimental.


Perhaps. You say earlier "Well its not for everybody and there are limits as to just how much you can cram".. I am interested to know for comparison what would be those limits for you personally? I am also interested to know what other part or parts of your own life would you sacrifice in order to reach this more rapidly advanced state?


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 19, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> The point of diminishing returns is not really an exception. It applies to everybody. Exactly where that point lies varies widely, but it nonetheless exists for all of us.


Sure it does, that's why I said there's limits as to how hard you can work and how fast you can learn before it becomes detrimental.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 19, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Perhaps. You say earlier "Well its not for everybody and there are limits as to just how much you can cram".. I am interested to know for comparison what would be those limits for you personally? I am also interested to know what other part or parts of your own life would you sacrifice in order to reach this more rapidly advanced state?


For me? I usually train at least a couple hours each day. Sometimes I train as much as five or six hours a day but I found that sometimes I improve more when I take extra time off after a hard workout. There was this one time when I threw over 10,000 kicks in one day and it took me about 13 hours but that was just a one time challenge, not something I do on a regular basis. Training as much as I do is not something a beginner should do since a beginner wouldn't be ready for it and they would be going beyond their limits. You can raise your limits but you've got to work up to it, I've been doing martial arts for more than a score.
As for how much else I would sacrifice that would depend. For me martial arts is a full time job but for somebody else working a different full time job they wouldn't be able to sacrifice as much. How much a person will sacrifice depends on factors such as their situation and how much passion they have for the martial arts.


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## Jenna (Jun 19, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> For me? I usually train at least a couple hours each day. Sometimes I train as much as five or six hours a day but I found that sometimes I improve more when I take extra time off after a hard workout. There was this one time when I threw over 10,000 kicks in one day and it took me about 13 hours but that was just a one time challenge, not something I do on a regular basis. Training as much as I do is not something a beginner should do since a beginner wouldn't be ready for it and they would be going beyond their limits. You can raise your limits but you've got to work up to it, I've been doing martial arts for more than a score.
> As for how much else I would sacrifice that would depend. For me martial arts is a full time job but for somebody else working a different full time job they wouldn't be able to sacrifice as much. How much a person will sacrifice depends on factors such as their situation and how much passion they have for the martial arts.


That sound like you have a balanced approach.. is good! what would happen if you went beyond your limits? I have heard it said limits are arbitrary constructs of the mind??


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 20, 2015)

Jenna said:


> That sound like you have a balanced approach.. is good! what would happen if you went beyond your limits? I have heard it said limits are arbitrary constructs of the mind??



The idea is to go beyond your limits but you don't want to push it too hard. Somebody who is just starting out wouldn't want to try training 100 hours a week or they might kill themselves. As a matter of fact I can't imagine anybody training 100 hours a week on a regular basis, that would leave less than 7 hours in a 24 hour period as free time to eat, sleep, ect.


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