# I not Even with the rediscovery of European styles with kicks and other complexity how come Western weapon styles are nowhere as flashy and acrobatic?



## EvaWolves (May 21, 2021)

I not only just saw an Indian sparring with swords which looked so darn agile and full of precise attacks that looked like The Terminator using his scanner as he fights and reacts to the information sent through his eye camera, but I saw some documentary about a some isolated First Nation community in Canada where while practising with an axe, they threw into with so much accuracy. Not just that but they dd a lot of jumping attacks and even throwing axe while in midair just before they landed on their feet and hitting a beet bottle set up for practise.

Now indeed the interest with European styles with no foreign influence (or at least with ts core base doctrines codified inside Europe before foreign stuff was added in like Boxe Francaise) have now been reviving knowledge of local dying styles or even extinct styles like Zweihander, we now know that European fighting systems is a lot more complex and have lots of stuff that will wow even Kung Fu movie fans. From precise aiming at weak points with the speed of light using a Spadoon to how using a two handed Scottish Claymore have lots of amazing different stances, its just incredible how so many old European sword styles included bone crushing stomp kicks and blended in grappling so much its like watching historical Samurai movies n sparring.

That said I do have to ask why even with how complicated European fighting systems are now being revealed as, how come Asian styles and not just Asia but all outside the est are foreign martial arts still seem to have plenty of insane stuff that Europe seems to have?

As I stated earlier, the First Nations axe styles and doing insane jumping attacks including throwing an axe while landing mid air from more than 3 feet over the ground is just one example. So many Kung Fu styles attack in a way with a sword that resembles dancing. Capoiera is full of quirky but insanely unpredctable and effective sudden attacks from below with a movement so unbelievable. Kenjitsu's so many ways of draw cutting is unbelievable even in comparison to Kung Fu schools.

It sees despite Medieval longsword stuff having things that require lots of training and very flashy to witness like scissor legging an enemy's leg and knocking him to the ground just as he's about to stab you with his arming sword and French rapier styles thrusting from completely unexpected angles that require you to be flexible enough to the point of doing splits and yoga-esque poses rather easily, it still seems European styles have nowhere as close to the insane acrobatic and flexible fats of foreign styles esp Chinese ones.

I'd have to ask why even despite the extreme finesse and deeply developed teachings of European styles that is just now being revealed to the public since reconstruction has reached such a high level, plenty of non-WEstern styles like African and PErsian swordsmanship still look far more flashy in a cinematic style in comparison? I remember for example The Sands of Time Trilogy of the Prince of Persia games used an actual instructor versed in Persian and Indian swordsmanship to film the mocap and in-game the Prince was doing stuff like throwing roundhouses followed by dance like spinning attacks and cutting moves is a great example of what I mean.

Why despite European fencing now shown just as incredibly well developed as Japanese and Chinese styles, they still lack the amount of acrobaticness and strange super precise moves esp flowery attacks so associated with Samurai swordsmanship and Kung Fu? The first time I saw someone turn over the sword and began to hit an opponent with the pommel like he was swinging a sledgehammer in a sparring match against plate armor in a Renaissance fair blew me away so much. Its exactly the thing you'd see in a Wuxia movie was what I thought. So I'd have to ask why even in other places like Latin America and North Africa, they still have fluid footwork like dancing and other flashy stuff that seems lacking even despite how reconstruction shows just how unbelievably well developed European swordsmanship i? I mean as another example, older historical predecessors of Muay Thai and historical Thai swordsmanship still not only have roundhouses above the waist aimed at the stomach and chest but even high kicks targeting the head! Whereas this is nonexistent in European styles even as they are being reconstructed by historians and fencing enthusiasts, the highest kicks normally done are basically at the knees and below and only the Spartan kick and side kick is consistently done at above the waist (and at highest at the stomach and no more). Just one more example out of so many!


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## geezer (May 21, 2021)

EvaWolves said:


> I not only just saw an Indian sparring with swords which looked so darn agile and full of precise attacks that looked like The Terminator...
> I saw some documentary about a some isolated First Nation community in Canada where while practising with an axe...


Hmmm... after reading all that, I'm not even sure what your question is! You seem to be referring to people all over the globe. BTW, are you Canadian by chance? In the quotes above it seems that you are referring to an Asian Indian ...and then to the indigenous  Americans, the majority of whom down here in the States still self-identify as "Indians" and are still classified as such by the U.S. government (I live in a state with a very large American Indian population and most folks have never heard the term "First Nations").

At any rate, am I right in identifying your overriding question as, "Why do all these non-European arts seem so flashy compared to HEMA?" ...because if that's what you're asking, I don't believe it to be true at all.

Regardless of country of origin, practical combative martial arts tend to have less emphasis on "flash" and more emphasis on simple, reliable and effective movements. The same goes for competitive martial sports. _Flash_ is for movies and demonstrations ...i.e. for show.


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## jks9199 (May 21, 2021)

I quite honestly had a lot of trouble following your post. Are you perhaps translating from another language because the sentence construction is odd.

That said... most of the reconstructed HEMA are either dueling sports or battlefield arts. As such, both tend towards direct and simple.  Fancy and acrobatic shows up in peacetime when you have tomcreate things to keep people interested.

Also, I wouldn't rely on video games and modern movies for accurate depictions of martial arts from other countries.


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## Dirty Dog (May 21, 2021)

As others have said, it's nearly impossible to make sense of what you've written. But there are a couple things worth pointing out.
Acrobatics really aren't for fighting.
Video games are not real.
Movies are not real.


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## geezer (May 21, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> I quite honestly had a lot of trouble following your post. Are you perhaps translating from another language because the sentence construction is odd.


Maybe ...Quebecoise? ...or other non-native speaker of English from Canada? Oh, oh! ...How about a first-nations person from Canada who's very young and loves video-games!   

...what do I know. I live in Arizona...


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## Martial D (May 21, 2021)

EvaWolves said:


> I not only just saw an Indian sparring with swords which looked so darn agile and full of precise attacks that looked like The Terminator using his scanner as he fights and reacts to the information sent through his eye camera, but I saw some documentary about a some isolated First Nation community in Canada where while practising with an axe, they threw into with so much accuracy. Not just that but they dd a lot of jumping attacks and even throwing axe while in midair just before they landed on their feet and hitting a beet bottle set up for practise.
> 
> Now indeed the interest with European styles with no foreign influence (or at least with ts core base doctrines codified inside Europe before foreign stuff was added in like Boxe Francaise) have now been reviving knowledge of local dying styles or even extinct styles like Zweihander, we now know that European fighting systems is a lot more complex and have lots of stuff that will wow even Kung Fu movie fans. From precise aiming at weak points with the speed of light using a Spadoon to how using a two handed Scottish Claymore have lots of amazing different stances, its just incredible how so many old European sword styles included bone crushing stomp kicks and blended in grappling so much its like watching historical Samurai movies n sparring.
> 
> ...


What?


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## frank raud (May 22, 2021)

geezer said:


> Maybe ...Quebecoise? ...or other non-native speaker of English from Canada? Oh, oh! ...How about a first-nations person from Canada who's very young and loves video-games!
> 
> ...what do I know. I live in Arizona.


It's like Bullsherdog has a cousin.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 24, 2021)

geezer said:


> Maybe ...Quebecoise? ...or other non-native speaker of English from Canada? Oh, oh! ...How about a first-nations person from Canada who's very young and loves video-games!
> 
> ...what do I know. I live in Arizona...


The structure doesn't strike me as based on any Romance language, so I doubt Québecois. Parts seemed more likely from a language like Russian, but the tenses weren't confused (which I'd expect from a Russian-speaker, even if they're fluent in English). Perhaps a language further East?


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## geezer (May 24, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The structure doesn't strike me as based on any Romance language, so I doubt Québecois. Parts seemed more likely from a language like Russian, but the tenses weren't confused (which I'd expect from a Russian-speaker, even if they're fluent in English). Perhaps a language further East?


I agree. However since it seems like the OP isn't coming back ....it may remain a mystery.


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## frank raud (May 24, 2021)

geezer said:


> Maybe ...Quebecoise? .


For someone from Arizona, I'm impressed you would know the feminine form of the term Quebecois.


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## geezer (May 24, 2021)

frank raud said:


> For someone from Arizona, I'm impressed you would know the feminine form of the term Quebecois.


Thanks! I speak OK Spanish for a gringo, mais je ne parle pas francais. Took year in high school... but that was some 45 years ago!


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## angelariz (May 25, 2021)

EvaWolves said:


> I not only just saw an Indian sparring with swords which looked so darn agile and full of precise attacks that looked like The Terminator using his scanner as he fights and reacts to the information sent through his eye camera, but I saw some documentary about a some isolated First Nation community in Canada where while practising with an axe, they threw into with so much accuracy. Not just that but they dd a lot of jumping attacks and even throwing axe while in midair just before they landed on their feet and hitting a beet bottle set up for practise.
> 
> Now indeed the interest with European styles with no foreign influence (or at least with ts core base doctrines codified inside Europe before foreign stuff was added in like Boxe Francaise) have now been reviving knowledge of local dying styles or even extinct styles like Zweihander, we now know that European fighting systems is a lot more complex and have lots of stuff that will wow even Kung Fu movie fans. From precise aiming at weak points with the speed of light using a Spadoon to how using a two handed Scottish Claymore have lots of amazing different stances, its just incredible how so many old European sword styles included bone crushing stomp kicks and blended in grappling so much its like watching historical Samurai movies n sparring.
> 
> ...


The flashiest prettiest styles are usually just martial dancing and not actually functional. 
Western styles are simple, direct, and efficient.


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## angelariz (May 25, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> I quite honestly had a lot of trouble following your post. Are you perhaps translating from another language because the sentence construction is odd.
> 
> That said... most of the reconstructed HEMA are either dueling sports or battlefield arts. As such, both tend towards direct and simple.  Fancy and acrobatic shows up in peacetime when you have tomcreate things to keep people interested.
> 
> Also, I wouldn't rely on video games and modern movies for accurate depictions of martial arts from other countries.


What he said!!100%


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## lklawson (May 25, 2021)

Kicking techniques in western arts haven't been rediscovered because they weren't lost.  La Savate, aka "French kickboxing," has maintained a continuous presence.  There was some great concern about the loss of Silver Gloves (highly ranked) savateurs due to WWI, but they recovered.  Bruce Lee talked about Purring, and Chausson is still taught in the country side and in the cities.  There's also plenty of kicking above the knees even in "knightly" combat; look at Talhoffer, for instance, which shows kicks to the stomach/chest and one to the opponents back.
As for flashy, acrobatic, athletic, beautiful techniques and sequences, I assume you are not very familiar with la canne competitions, where the entire sequence of moves (a "phrase") is judged on how perfect, how elegant, and often how flashy, it was instead of whether or not the stick hit the opponent.
When it comes to "dancing" and what we think of as "kata" then there's a ton of that in the western tradition.  Besides the (somewhat debated) suspicion that the Dirk Dance was actually a form of knife training, there are lots of other dance-cum-martial traditions.  This includes Morris Dancing, Jogo do Pau "dances," and the Shaska dance (I forget the Russian name for it but it's awe inspiring - check yootoob).  It's, literally, all of the place in folk dances.
But all of these things have specific purposes.  Sometimes the purpose is "Performance Art."   Just as in the Asian tradition.




































I mean, pretty much what it boils down to is most of your assumptions are wrong.  I suspect this is just a matter of you not knowing and not knowing where to look.

Hopefully these will get you started.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (May 25, 2021)

geezer said:


> Thanks! I speak OK Spanish for a gringo, mais je ne parle pas francais. Took year in high school... but that was some 45 years ago!


They had high schools way back then???


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## Hanshi (May 25, 2021)

???????????


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## lklawson (May 26, 2021)

Some old-timey stills of la savate:





Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Flying Crane (May 27, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Kicking techniques in western arts haven't been rediscovered because they weren't lost.  La Savate, aka "French kickboxing," has maintained a continuous presence.  There was some great concern about the loss of Silver Gloves (highly ranked) savateurs due to WWI, but they recovered.  Bruce Lee talked about Purring, and Chausson is still taught in the country side and in the cities.  There's also plenty of kicking above the knees even in "knightly" combat; look at Talhoffer, for instance, which shows kicks to the stomach/chest and one to the opponents back.
> As for flashy, acrobatic, athletic, beautiful techniques and sequences, I assume you are not very familiar with la canne competitions, where the entire sequence of moves (a "phrase") is judged on how perfect, how elegant, and often how flashy, it was instead of whether or not the stick hit the opponent.
> When it comes to "dancing" and what we think of as "kata" then there's a ton of that in the western tradition.  Besides the (somewhat debated) suspicion that the Dirk Dance was actually a form of knife training, there are lots of other dance-cum-martial traditions.  This includes Morris Dancing, Jogo do Pau "dances," and the Shaska dance (I forget the Russian name for it but it's awe inspiring - check yootoob).  It's, literally, all of the place in folk dances.
> But all of these things have specific purposes.  Sometimes the purpose is "Performance Art."   Just as in the Asian tradition.
> ...


Very very interesting video clips here.


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## frank raud (May 27, 2021)

lklawson said:


> I mean, pretty much what it boils down to is most of your assumptions are wrong. I suspect this is just a matter of you not knowing and not knowing where to look.


More in common with Bullsherdog.


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## lklawson (May 28, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Very very interesting video clips here.


Jogo do pau seems to be gaining online interest.  That said, there are dozens upon dozens, probably hundreds, of lesser know european based martial arts (from weapons to unarmed) which are suddenly being documented in video.

But I have to say, I love watching the hot chicks do the shashka dance.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Flying Crane (May 28, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Jogo do pau seems to be gaining online interest.  That said, there are dozens upon dozens, probably hundreds, of lesser know european based martial arts (from weapons to unarmed) which are suddenly being documented in video.
> 
> But I have to say, I love watching the hot chicks do the shashka dance.
> 
> ...


The sword dance is very interesting, especially where the fellow was cutting the poles with it.  Very cool stuff


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## Steve (May 28, 2021)

lklawson said:


> But I have to say, I love watching the hot chicks do the shashka dance.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I like it.  Reminds me of xma routines.


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## Flyingknee (Apr 27, 2022)

EvaWolves said:


> I not only just saw an Indian sparring with swords which looked so darn agile and full of precise attacks that looked like The Terminator using his scanner as he fights and reacts to the information sent through his eye camera, but I saw some documentary about a some isolated First Nation community in Canada where while practising with an axe, they threw into with so much accuracy. Not just that but they dd a lot of jumping attacks and even throwing axe while in midair just before they landed on their feet and hitting a beet bottle set up for practise.
> 
> Now indeed the interest with European styles with no foreign influence (or at least with ts core base doctrines codified inside Europe before foreign stuff was added in like Boxe Francaise) have now been reviving knowledge of local dying styles or even extinct styles like Zweihander, we now know that European fighting systems is a lot more complex and have lots of stuff that will wow even Kung Fu movie fans. From precise aiming at weak points with the speed of light using a Spadoon to how using a two handed Scottish Claymore have lots of amazing different stances, its just incredible how so many old European sword styles included bone crushing stomp kicks and blended in grappling so much its like watching historical Samurai movies n sparring.
> 
> ...



Maybe it's because metaphysically and spiritually air is supposed to be the element of the east hence all the acrobatic moves.


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## Alan0354 (May 13, 2022)

I can't follow exactly what OP said, I can only guess that OP was wondering why Some style don't have fancy moves like the other.

I just have a question to OP. Are those fancy moves practical? Is MA for showing off or to fight? Do you consider this as "Performance arts" or "fighting arts" or more importantly "Art of KICKING BUTTS"?

I hate to keep bringing up UFC and MMA. At the beginning, they had all different styles competed in the Octagon. It only took to like UFC5 to literally eliminated all those that didn't work. Even after about 3 years when everyone got used to the ground game, you can see the technique are still very straight forward, no fancy stuffs as IT DOESN'T WORK!!!

Now you start to see more fancy moves in UFC like spin head kicks type, but it's still rare. If not because they have more rules today compare to the older days, I bet the techniques would be more simple like the older days. Those rules likely enable people to do fancier moves.

As for me, I am learning stick fight, been practicing over a year. When people show me videos of some fancy moves, I just acknowledge and thank them, watch them one time and that's it. Particularly I don't go to school, just practicing myself. I only concentrate on the most basic moves,  I concentrate on how to swing fast and hit hard. I started learning escrima single handed swing. But soon, I found it's too fancy, all the twirling using a light stick. I changed to two handed swing using a 20oz stick, concentrating on body movement to add power. Last thing I want is to wack the opponent's knees and he look at me and say "OUCH"!!!! I learn to weed out all the impractical stuffs, stuffs that need a wide open flat floor that is unreal in real life situation. Places like in public area, restaurants where there are people, tables, chairs and other objects all over the place. I am sure in fight back in the older days, they had the same problem in real life. You try to do spin kicks that need a wide radius, flipping and jumping. Good luck in landing!!! All it takes is stepping on something or hitting something, that will throw you off balance completely and end up on the floor.

For weapons, it's the same, in confined place, you cannot swing wild, looking pretty and all. In real life, there are obstacles around you, you cannot do fancy twirling as you'll hit things. You have to be able to hit hard in small area. Using two hands holding the stick enables me to swing and hit in confined space. I even practice in hallway where it's narrow and swing hard.

If I want fancy artistic stuffs, I'll learn ballet, acrobat stuffs. If I want to learn martial arts, I want to kick butts. I want to walk away ALIVE instead of getting praises of the pretty moves.


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## Argus (May 22, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I can't follow exactly what OP said, I can only guess that OP was wondering why Some style don't have fancy moves like the other.
> 
> I just have a question to OP. Are those fancy moves practical? Is MA for showing off or to fight? Do you consider this as "Performance arts" or "fighting arts" or more importantly "Art of KICKING BUTTS"?
> 
> ...



Don't entirely discount fancy stuff.

I've pulled off disarms and complicated techniques on fully resisting and very skeptical training partners.

It's just that skilled opponents often won't give you the opportunity to do fancy techniques. However, unskilled opponents will, and those "fancy techniques" are often the perfect tool in certain situations, such as when a really aggressive guy comes barrelling in fully committed, or if you react late (as often is the case in a self defense situation) and the range is too close for your liking.

Techniques should just happen though -- if you're trying to apply them, you're likely to just get yourself in trouble. If your opponent doesn't give you the opportunity to use it, you don't do it.

All that said, most techniques in most traditional martial arts are not fancy at all, especially when trained with proper intent. They also happen a lot faster and more subtley than people realize. This is abundantly clear if you ever record yourself sparring. When you're doing it, it's so clear what you did and what techniques you used in the moment, as you feel it. But if you go back and watch the video, it can be very hard to see a given technique, as it's often quite small, subtle, and quick in application, such that anyone watching the video might not always catch what you actually did. This effect is compounded upon by the fact that most video has a rather low frame rate and moving things get blurred.

So, anyway, I don't get what the OP is on about. The Chinese and Filipino systems that I've done are not fancy at all, and I've seen just as fancy and intricate techniques in HEMA. They're so similar at times, in fact, that I'm astounded. There's a good video comparing, for example, Spanish Rapier and Kalis Ilustrisimo:





Ain't that different.


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