# Dirty boxing



## lonecoyote

I'm sure Im not the first person who has had this thought, but if someone was taught and coached in boxing and along with the fundamentals of how to punch, move, footwork, etc. they were taught the various fouls (thumbing the eye, stepping on the lead foot, punching below the belt, head and elbows in the clinch,etc.) in a systematic and fundamentally sound way with proper emphasis one would have a heck of a self defensive martial art. I know some old timers have a lot of knowledge about these dirty techniques and it would make a good video series or class. I'd probably go the class or buy the video. Does anything like this exist? Why or why not in your opinion?


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## Han-Mi

It doesn't exist because of the term "dirty fighting". People don't want to learn "dirty fighting" they want to be glorious honorable fighters. However, the people are out there to learn from. Pick up what you can and do us all a favor and pass it on. It is one of those things that will stay word of mouth ountil someone, Maybe even you, begins to teach it as a form of self defense.

One last thing I thought of As I was writing this, You might look into the "women's self defense" stuff. Often enough, they are tought to gouge, elbow, stomp the foot, all that stuff.


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## Randy Strausbaugh

Champ Thomas wrote a book called (I think) "Boxing's Five Killer Punches" which is supposed to deal in part with the things you mentioned.


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## punisher73

It doesn't exist because of the term "dirty fighting". 

Carl Cestari has a tape out on dirty boxing, which is based on the old method of bare knuckle fighting along with the things "banned" now like the cross buttock throw and stepping on their foot.

Mark Hatmaker also has a tape series out on dirty boxing where he goes over all of the cheap shots and illegal things from boxing in it.  He also has a book out on boxing that just came out (haven't seen it yet though), but he does have a book on NHB striking and goes over some of those things along with drills in it.

Ned Beaumont also has a 2 book series on boxing as a Martial Art and he goes over the illegal shots and how to adopt your boxing for the street as well. I have both of these books and read them alot. 

Hope this helps you out some.


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## loki09789

Do an Amazon search on boxing.  I don't have it in front of me but I do have a copy (that is currently loaned out) of a "Dirty Boxing/Street boxing" book that models itself after a Jack Dempsy book published a long time a go.  Good fundamental concepts and practicallity w/o all the 'Martial arts is to soft/fru fru' criticism you usually see from the boxing side of martial arts training.

I trained ATA for a while and found that much of the sparring/upper body skills (outside of Kata) was very boxing/contact based as well.  That was YEARS ago though.


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## lonecoyote

Thanks, everybody. I'll definitely look into these books, tapes and tell you what I find. I've heard good things about Carl Cestari's WWII CQC tapes so maybe these will be good too. What do you think the most street applicable boxing fouls would be?


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## Randy Strausbaugh

Elbows, head butts, thumbs to the eyes, low blows, all come to mind.


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## loki09789

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> Elbows, head butts, thumbs to the eyes, low blows, all come to mind.


Add to that great list:

forearm strikes/shaving strikes, palm strikes (usually called 'lacing' when you wear gloves), rabbit punches, foot trapping.... you name it.  If you train a little in sport boxing, you will see where the gaps can be filled for street applications.  I would even suggest some basic info on Vale Tudo for some great boxing to grappling entry/takedown blends too.


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## lonecoyote

Who was a good fouler that you could watch tape of and see how its done, in your opinion? It can't just be a pure foul fighter, they have to be good boxers too. I say Golota, he was destroying Riddick Bowe even without the low blows which eventually DQed him but the low blows were devastating. Seemed like he was doing them on a half beat to the rhythm of the fight.  and he was a tough, mean fighter, too. Anybody else?


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## Baytor

I could be wrong, but didn't Col. Rex Applegate's book "Kill or Be Killed" deal with that sort of thing too...I know it had very straightforward tactics designed to maim or kill.


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## Silat Student

Definately keep us apprised LC. This has been something that caught my interest a while ago (from a passing mention in another forum). A guy from indonesia was talking about how americans/europeans tend to go for other countries' martial arts because we've been told (and taught by Hollywood) how 'inferior' our homegrown arts are.


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## bignick

this is an interesting thought...i might have to look into some of these books mentioned...thanks to everyone for the info


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## arnisador

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> I'm sure Im not the first person who has had this thought, but if someone was taught and coached in boxing and along with the fundamentals of how to punch, move, footwork, etc. they were taught the various fouls (thumbing the eye, stepping on the lead foot, punching below the belt, head and elbows in the clinch,etc.) in a systematic and fundamentally sound way with proper emphasis one would have a heck of a self defensive martial art. I know some old timers have a lot of knowledge about these dirty techniques



My understanding is that many boxing teachers at local gyms do teach a lot of these tricks. They're well-known, and for those who are learning for self-defense or fitness rather than competition, could be useful. I've had amateur boxers explain some of these to me, and they are able to do them. One boxer, back in high school, showed me a "trick" wherein he knocked the opponents knee to the side with his knee to get a momentary advantage. It's an idea that is common to a number of martial arts but we don't think of it as part of boxing...just like we forget that there's atemi in Judo!


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## Ric Flair

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> Elbows, head butts, thumbs to the eyes, low blows, all come to mind.


 
Wow kind of like Wing Chun and some other Eastern arts....!!!

Perhaps boxing came from a more vicious and less "rule bound" history???  

One thing i see beneficial to modern boxing is where the boxers for the most part keep their guard hands up near their chins, while the chin remains tucked.  I like this more than the old school way of keeping on arm down near the belly exposing the wrist.  The Filipino's took advantage of this on the American soldiers and slashed their wrist's with blades.  
I think thats why the guard hands evolved.

But man, these "dirty tricks" of boxing are actually whats taught or emphasized in many of the martial arts out there through forms and drills...


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## Ric Flair

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Add to that great list:
> 
> forearm strikes/shaving strikes, palm strikes (usually called 'lacing' when you wear gloves), rabbit punches, foot trapping.... you name it. If you train a little in sport boxing, you will see where the gaps can be filled for street applications. I would even suggest some basic info on Vale Tudo for some great boxing to grappling entry/takedown blends too.


 
Can't believe you are not allowed to "lace" (palm strike) an attacker in a boxing ring!!!  In Wing Chun we focus this a lot sometimes.  
Boxing is already deadly, picture adding in these "dirty tricks"...

i don't find these "tricks" dirty at all.  If they work when they are needed, who cares if you look like a cheat for hitting a man in the balls or throat.  The point is it worked and you survived with your life!!!


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## Andrew Green

At least some boxing coaches teach them, I'd imagine most would.  Even if they don't want their fighters to use them, they would at least want their fighters to be aware of them.

Same as in wrestling, most amateur wrestlers will know how to chin the eye, turn a front headlock into a choke, etc.  

Part of getting good at any sport is understanding the fouls as well as the legal stuff.  Because no matter how honorable you are, eventually you'll fight someone that isn't and tries to use them against you.


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## Ric Flair

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> At least some boxing coaches teach them, I'd imagine most would. Even if they don't want their fighters to use them, they would at least want their fighters to be aware of them.
> 
> Same as in wrestling, most amateur wrestlers will know how to chin the eye, turn a front headlock into a choke, etc.
> 
> Part of getting good at any sport is understanding the fouls as well as the legal stuff. Because no matter how honorable you are, eventually you'll fight someone that isn't and tries to use them against you.


 
If you are not careful, honor can get you killed on the streets......


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## Jonathan Randall

punisher73 said:
			
		

> It doesn't exist because of the term "dirty fighting".
> 
> Carl Cestari has a tape out on dirty boxing, which is based on the old method of bare knuckle fighting along with the things "banned" now like the cross buttock throw and stepping on their foot.
> 
> Mark Hatmaker also has a tape series out on dirty boxing where he goes over all of the cheap shots and illegal things from boxing in it. He also has a book out on boxing that just came out (haven't seen it yet though), but he does have a book on NHB striking and goes over some of those things along with drills in it.
> 
> Ned Beaumont also has a 2 book series on boxing as a Martial Art and he goes over the illegal shots and how to adopt your boxing for the street as well. I have both of these books and read them alot.
> 
> Hope this helps you out some.


 
It does help. 

I thought I'd revive this thread because it dovetails nicely with the thread on Ned Beaumont's book on Boxing as a streetfighting art.

Any thoughts or comments on "Dirty Boxing"? It sounds like a quick way for those already proficient in basic boxing skills to become formidable streetfighters.


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## Andrew Green

Ric Flair said:
			
		

> If you are not careful, honor can get you killed on the streets......



"The streets"... yes the mythical place of evil and constant danger, a place with a similar name to area's I am quite familliar with but seems to bare little resemblance to what I know.  The biggest danger on the streets I know is not a gang of hooligans coming at me Clockwork Orange "Ultraviolence" style, but some old lady that can't see over the dashboard running me over....


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## elder999

Matt Thornton's Straight Blast Gym has a series of tapes/DVD's by boxing coach Don Familton. While not comprehensive, there is one that deals with "dirty" tactics and streetfighting, and it's very well made. Carl Cestari's is also good.

Most boxing trainers worth their salt, especially PAL,  teach at least some of this stuff.


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## frank raud

Ric Flair said:
			
		

> Can't believe you are not allowed to "lace" (palm strike) an attacker in a boxing ring!!!  In Wing Chun we focus this a lot sometimes.
> Boxing is already deadly, picture adding in these "dirty tricks"...
> 
> i don't find these "tricks" dirty at all.  If they work when they are needed, who cares if you look like a cheat for hitting a man in the balls or throat.  The point is it worked and you survived with your life!!!



Gloves change a lot of techniques. Palm strikes are devastating, but not the main focus of boxing. "Lacing" is a little different, in that you make use of the laces on the gloves to tear facial skin or mess up an eye. Can be easily made to look like an accidental strike as the opponent"slipped" your jab.

These tricks are only "dirty" under the rules of boxing. If you are using them outside the boxing ring, in a self defense situation, there is less concern on the ethics of how you win.


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## Andrew Green

of course if you are getting in "self-defence" fights wearing laced up boxing gloves people may start to question you


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## frank raud

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> of course if you are getting in "self-defence" fights wearing laced up boxing gloves people may start to question you



I've managed to avoid many fights by walking into bars wearing Muay Thai shorts and boxing gloves. It's just a little difficult to pay the waiter, and you have to drink your beer through a straw.:0


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## Cruentus

I just saw this thread. There are some good references to dirty boxing material that I should look into.

One of our staple programs is "Modern bare Knuckle Fighting" based of bare knuckle boxing method of fighting and instruction that I am familar with.

A lot of people don't realize that bare knuckle fighting existed underground as a competition where promoters and gamblers profited from it until about the 40's. There are a lot of these methods that are alive (although not all have been greatly publicized) today.

Bare knuckle boxing worked more then just on punching tactics that we see today. There are low line kicks, palms, clinchs, groundwork, throws, "dirty" techniques, and so forth. The line is blurred between what distinguishes these.

Our basic methodology as a concept relates to angling and body dominant positioning. We want to cut angles and manuever into positions where we are dominantly balanced, and where we have more access to openings then the other guy. From there, we aim to monopolize openings by inflicting as much trauma as quickly and efficently as possible with our techniques. This basic concept crosses all lines, from standing to ground work.

I really enjoy it. I would really like to see what other people are doing; to find the similarities as well as differences. Hell, I may find something I can pirate.. 

Paul


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