# A Killing Art: The Untold History of Tae Kwon Do



## StuartA (Oct 21, 2008)

Just seen this:





*A Killing Art: The Untold History of Tae Kwon Do*
_by Alex Gillis_

Check out the blurb:

_*Product Description*_
Obscure documents, Korean-language books, and in-depth interviews with tae kwon do pioneers tell the tale of the origin of the most popular martial art. In 1938, tae kwon do began at the end of a poker game in a tiny village in a remote corner of what is now North Korea by Choi Hong-Hi, who began the martial art, and his nemesis, Kim Un-Yong, who developed the Olympic style and became one of the most powerful, controversial men in sports. The story follows Choi from the 1938 poker game where he fought for his life, through high-class geisha houses where the art was named, and into the Vietnam War where the martial art evolved into a killing art. The techniques cut across all realmsfrom the late 1960s when tae kwon do-trained Korean CIA agents kidnapped people in the U.S. and Europe, to the 1970s when Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, and other Hollywood stars master the arts new kicks. Tae kwon do is also a martial art for the 21st century, one of merciless techniques, indomitable men, and justice pumped on steroids.

_*About the Author*_
Alex Gillis is a university writing instructor and a professional journalist specializing in literary nonfiction and investigative research. He has trained in tae kwon do for 25 years and is a third-degree black belt. His instructors were some of the pioneers of the martial art, and he had rare access to these men and their families and disciples. He lives in Toronto.

*Sounds interesting! *


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2008)

I think I need to find a copy for myself.


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## exile (Oct 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I think I need to find a copy for myself.



Yo! Double ditto for me. It's time people actually got this idea into their heads thaqt there's another, much harsher side to TKD. Thanks to Stuart for getting the ball rolling with the discussions in his book of Tra Binh Dong and the ROK Marine and commando units, and to Simon for his newsletter and book discussion of the take-no-prisoners military aspect of TKD. Now it looks as if we have a book-length continuation of the theme.

I get a sense from the appearance of this book that the tide is turning in the perception of TKD, spurred on by the new combat realism in pattern interpretation and application that we see more and more in the MAs generally. This, on top of books such as Stuart and Simon's, makes me very hopeful that we'll be seeing much more attention paid to this side, institutionally and in terms of curriculum.


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## miguksaram (Oct 21, 2008)

Honestly, just from that summary alone tells me that the book is not only biased but based on ITF hype and lies.  I'm surprised that he didn't mention some of the more popular myths like Choi's imprisonment in Japanese jails where he developed the art.  Enjoy the book gentlemen, I'm not wasting a dime on it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 21, 2008)

You do know that with the Korean arts you need to balance out your opinions and look at both sides.  This is very, very important in finding the truth or the supposed truth in the matter of their histories.


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2008)

miguksaram said:


> Honestly, just from that summary alone tells me that the book is not only biased but based on ITF hype and lies. I'm surprised that he didn't mention some of the more popular myths like Choi's imprisonment in Japanese jails where he developed the art. Enjoy the book gentlemen, I'm not wasting a dime on it.


 
Why be so closed minded about a Art we love, I do both ITF and KKW and I am able to see the balance between both styles.


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## KickFest (Oct 21, 2008)

> tae kwon do began at the end of a poker game in a tiny village in a remote corner of what is now North Korea





> Tae kwon do is also a martial art for the 21st century, one of merciless techniques, indomitable men, and *justice pumped on steroids*


When I saw the book originally I thought it was supposed to be a satire based on these kinds of lines 

Sounds like a fun book, but I wonder how much of it is honestly based in fact.


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2008)

KickFest said:


> When I saw the book originally I thought it was supposed to be a satire based on these kinds of lines
> 
> Sounds like a fun book, but I wonder how much of it is honestly based in fact.


 
Really how much facts do we really know? Withen the Korean mindset they needed to fabricate so much that facts and friction crossed over to what they believe to be reality.


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## granfire (Oct 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Why be so closed minded about a Art we love, I do both ITF and KKW and I am able to see the balance between both styles.




That reminded me of the bar lady in 'Bob's Country Bunker' from the Blues Brothers movie: "We have both kinds [of music]: Country _and _Western!"


hehehe. sorry, OT...

Anybody know which company line Tuttle's books on Martial Arts follow? (I think it was tuttle....) on TKD and Karate.

I am afraid the Korean names will have me spinning my wheels on the first page...


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## KickFest (Oct 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Really how much facts do we really know? Withen the Korean mindset they needed to fabricate so much that facts and friction crossed over to what they believe to be reality.


That's exactly my point. I'm sure I'd have fun comparing this book to the history section of The Taegeuk Cipher... I'm sure the two takes on TKD's history are quite different


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## StuartA (Oct 21, 2008)

Reading the blurb, I think its mostly taken from Gen Chois "Taekwon-do & I" books with extars to re-enforce stuff perhaps.

The poker thing is TKD legend and well known... as are many of the other snippets in the blurb (KCIA and all that etc.)!  The last line is puzzling however.. 

Stuart

ps. i do hope he has evidence to back things up, rather than just perpertrating certain myths
pps. there is another book due on TKD history by a Korean hisorian (Kimm).. not sure when its due out though!


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2008)

StuartA said:


> Reading the blurb, I think its mostly taken from Gen Chois "Taekwon-do & I" books with extars to re-enforce stuff perhaps.
> 
> The poker thing is TKD legend and well known... as are many of the other snippets in the blurb (KCIA and all that etc.)! The last line is puzzling however..
> 
> ...


 
Master Kimm book is due out late November I was told just in time for the Holiday season.


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## YoungMan (Oct 21, 2008)

I'll pass.


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2008)

I know


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## Twin Fist (Oct 21, 2008)

miguksaram said:


> Honestly, just from that summary alone tells me that the book is not only biased but based on ITF hype and lies. I'm surprised that he didn't mention some of the more popular myths like Choi's imprisonment in Japanese jails where he developed the art. Enjoy the book gentlemen, I'm not wasting a dime on it.


 

Sure thing mr "if you are not doing KKW/WTF you are not doing TKD"

after all, we all want to avoid bias, right?:hb:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I think I need to find a copy for myself.


Me three!

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Oct 28, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Why be so closed minded about a Art we love, I do both ITF and KKW and I am able to see the balance between both styles.


 
So if someone writes a book about the world actually being flat then I should read it because if not I'm closed minded?  Sorry but you will have to do better than a "You're just being closed minded" type of argument.  If someone wants to send a free book over to me, I'll be glad to read it during my bathroom bouts with the kimichi chigae.  Other than that I'm not spending money on BS hype.

Oh...and for the record, if it was a KKW book about how TKD was discovered back 2000 years ago, I wouldn't spend my money on that dribble either.


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## miguksaram (Oct 28, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Really how much facts do we really know? Withen the Korean mindset they needed to fabricate so much that facts and friction crossed over to what they believe to be reality.


 
I would recommend doing two things.  First read up on Korean history and then go and talk to some of the 2nd & 3rd generation students of TKD history.  That way you will be able to decipher hype from facts.  The answers are out there, we just have to do some of our own leg work to find them.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 28, 2008)

miguksaram said:


> Oh...and for the record, if it was a KKW book about how TKD was discovered back 2000 years ago, I wouldn't spend my money on that dribble either.


But carvings found on a first century BC flower pot clearly show padded hogu and headgear.  And close inspection reveals a Vee neck dobok and a 2" belt!  

How can you argue with such irrefutable proof??

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Oct 28, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Sure thing mr "if you are not doing KKW/WTF you are not doing TKD"
> 
> after all, we all want to avoid bias, right?:hb:


 
Right, and we don't want to piss away money on a book that is just pushing hype more than facts.


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## miguksaram (Oct 28, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> But carvings found on a first century BC flower pot clearly show padded hogu and headgear. And close inspection reveals a Vee neck dobok and a 2" belt!
> 
> How can you argue with such irrefutable proof??
> 
> Daniel


 
Actually it was a U-neck, becuase they have no 'V' in their alphabet.   The 'V' was added later ha.ha.ha.


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## zeeberex (Oct 28, 2008)

exile said:


> Yo! Double ditto for me. It's time people actually got this idea into their heads thaqt there's another, much harsher side to TKD. Thanks to Stuart for getting the ball rolling with the discussions in his book of Tra Binh Dong and the ROK Marine and commando units, and to Simon for his newsletter and book discussion of the take-no-prisoners military aspect of TKD. Now it looks as if we have a book-length continuation of the theme.
> 
> I get a sense from the appearance of this book that the tide is turning in the perception of TKD, spurred on by the new combat realism in pattern interpretation and application that we see more and more in the MAs generally. This, on top of books such as Stuart and Simon's, makes me very hopeful that we'll be seeing much more attention paid to this side, institutionally and in terms of curriculum.



The techniques you learn in any art can be applied with lethal or harsher intent, the point is how the art is currently taught because how you are taught is how you will react will the bleep hits the fan.


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## BrandonLucas (Oct 28, 2008)

zeeberex said:


> The techniques you learn in any art can be applied with lethal or harsher intent, the point is how the art is currently taught because how you are taught is how you will react will the bleep hits the fan.


 
It's actually a combination of how you're taught and the techniques that you are taught....you can have a great teacher who doesn't know the proper techniques...or, conversely, you can have a horrible teacher who knows all the proper techniques....you have to have both in order to learn properly.

Be that as it may, the book sounds quite interesting, whether it's completely truthful or not.  Maybe it can bring the right kind of attention to TKD.


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## bluemtn (Oct 28, 2008)

There is almost always some truth to go along with fiction.  It definitely would be interesting to read, and worth shelling out a few bucks...


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## miguksaram (Oct 28, 2008)

tkdgirl said:


> There is almost always some truth to go along with fiction. It definitely would be interesting to read, and worth shelling out a few bucks...


 
Here is a quote from the author during an interview:

"The book was extremely difficult to research because many of the
facts were unbelievable, bizarre and took enormous effort to
corroborate. I began by reading most of the mainstream works about Tae
Kwon Do and conducting a couple of crucial interviews (to see if I
could gain access to the deeper stories), then I dove into obscure
sources, including more than 4,000 pages of U.S. Congressional
documents about Koreagate (the scandal that followed Watergate in the
1970s), documents that contained previously classified details about
martial arts leaders and secret-service agents in Tae Kwon Do in the
1960s and 1970s, which was when Tae Kwon Do became as hot as Karate and Kung Fu.


I interviewed some of the pioneers of the art after much of the
research was done interviews that were the most challenging in my
life as an investigative journalist. In once case, I had to interview a
former martial arts assassin. In a second, I needed to corroborate that
a martial arts instructor had been a Korean CIA agent in a highly
publicized presidential kidnapping. In a third, I had to triple-check
that a cult had been involved with Tae Kwon Do. I found at least two
sources, usually three, for every fact"

I'm reminded of another book that was supposed to be true where the writter had inside knowledge of seedy Korean secrets called Race Against Evil by David "Race" Bannon.   You should look him up on google to see the results of his labor.


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## zDom (Oct 28, 2008)

miguksaram said:


> ... In once case, I had to interview a
> former martial arts assassin. ...



Wonder if he is talking about Pu Gil Gwon, another Korean, or a U.S. martial arts assassin.


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## Deaf Smith (Oct 28, 2008)

I intend on getting the book myself.

Really, when you think about it, TKD, if practiced hard many times a week and take very seriously, is a very good fighting art.

The real problem as been 'McDojos". If you have ever seen the ROKs train, they don't do one hour twice a week and spend tons of time on small matters and many forms. They do lots of physical training (good old PT) and are very no-nonsense in their techniques.

Imagine having to work out 2 hours three times a week, with alot of that time in hard PT with lots of SD and sparring mixed in.

Actually, that sounds good! Wish I knew of a school like that in America.

Deaf


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## zDom (Oct 29, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> Imagine having to work out 2 hours three times a week, with alot of that time in hard PT with lots of SD and sparring mixed in.
> 
> Actually, that sounds good! Wish I knew of a school like that in America.



Sounds like the dojang kwanjang and I trained at in the early to mid '90s  

Maybe not quite as hardcore as the ROK, but it was some great training.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 29, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> I intend on getting the book myself.
> 
> Really, when you think about it, TKD, if practiced hard many times a week and take very seriously, is a very good fighting art.
> 
> ...


That is the kind of school I'd like to open.

Daniel


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## Miles (Oct 29, 2008)

I think I'd read it at the library but don't know if I would spend any money on it.  Gen Choi's son recently returned to ROK and mentioned his involvement in the kidnapping/assassination scheme.  I think most of this information is already available from other ITF sources.  For me, the interesting thing would be the interviews with the pioneers.  If I like what I read and thought I'd re-read it, I'd buy it.


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## StuartA (Oct 29, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> That is the kind of school I'd like to open.
> 
> Daniel


LOL.. that the school I run!

Stuart


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## terryl965 (Oct 29, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> I intend on getting the book myself.
> 
> Really, when you think about it, TKD, if practiced hard many times a week and take very seriously, is a very good fighting art.
> 
> ...


 
Well you can always come over to my school and give it a try.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 30, 2008)

StuartA said:


> LOL.. that the school I run!
> 
> Stuart


Now, if only London were a little closer to me....

Daniel


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## Cirdan (Oct 30, 2008)

As much as I love a good hard workout I think I should point out the following:  In any properly run MA school around 90% of the time will be spent on fairly low intensity, technical training.


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## zeeberex (Oct 30, 2008)

Cirdan said:


> As much as I love a good hard workout I think I should point out the following:  In any properly run MA school around 90% of the time will be spent on fairly low intensity, technical training.



true, but sparring should almost always in my opinion, as opposed on randori, which I personally consider more of a training excercise, should be full contact.


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## Cirdan (Oct 31, 2008)

zeeberex said:


> true, but sparring should almost always in my opinion, as opposed on randori, which I personally consider more of a training excercise, should be full contact.


 
I can see your point. Personally I do think of sparring as a training exercise. I do it to improve my skills, it is not a goal in itself. 
Being a traditionalist "full contact" to me would be no rules and no protective gear, someting you can`t do in class because it leads to hospitalizing people.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 31, 2008)

Cirdan said:


> I can see your point. Personally I do think of sparring as a training exercise. I do it to improve my skills, it is not a goal in itself.
> Being a traditionalist "full contact" to me would be no rules and no protective gear, someting you can`t do in class because it leads to hospitalizing people.



In trying to describe the role of sparring as training as part of a larger picture, the analogy I've come up with is...

"The Army doesn't train to win wargames, the army uses wargames to train to win a war"

Sparring...is wargames


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## StuartA (Oct 31, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> Now, if only London were a little closer to me....
> 
> Daniel


 
Well if you ever visit our sunny isle.. let me know!

Stuart


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## StuartA (Oct 31, 2008)

Cirdan said:


> Personally I do think of sparring as a training exercise. I do it to improve my skills, it is not a goal in itself.


The goal is to improve your skills as you said.. there for it makes it a training exercise. After learning something for the first time, isnt this what training is for!!! 



> Being a traditionalist "full contact" to me would be no rules and no protective gear, someting you can`t do in class because it leads to hospitalizing people.


Im a traditionalist as well, training heavy/full can still be done.. if the older schools had the safety gear we had, do you not think they would have used it to allow safer, more productive training? That said, I think limited protective gear is best (mouth guard & gloves is all we use). All training has to have some rules, simply from a safety viewpoint, I cant think of any art that had all techniques allowed, full contact, with no rules at all.. people would be losing eyes and breaking limbs every session!!

Stuart


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## zDom (Oct 31, 2008)

It's a fine line that must be tread:

mixing it up with enough intensity to train for real situations,

but

not being counterproductive by causing injuries.

After all, what is the point in training self defense to avoid injury from people if you are being even more seriously injured during training/testing?


Pinpoint focus skills combined with mutual respect and care for training partners are invaluable in treading this fine line.

i.e.,

"Make me FEEL the body shots, let me know I got hit in the head and didn't slip the strike, but don't break my ribs, splatter my nose, cause brain trauma by knocking me out/giving me concussions; and I'll do the same for you."


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## zeeberex (Oct 31, 2008)

Cirdan said:


> I can see your point. Personally I do think of sparring as a training exercise. I do it to improve my skills, it is not a goal in itself.
> Being a traditionalist "full contact" to me would be no rules and no protective gear, someting you can`t do in class because it leads to hospitalizing people.



We typically in sparring, don't have a ref so much as folks keeping things on the periphery from getting broken ( The mirrored wall has been taken out once or twice), but we use sparring gear, for what good it does. We allow things to go from punch/kick into grappling so rules are sketchy anyway. The one bit of advice I can offer is be mindful of the headgear you choose, theres an older type with a metal bridge that "protects" the nose, and twice someone has been hit there and the metal support caved in, one time with a double nosebleed, the other a broken nose.


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## SJON (Oct 31, 2008)

Not wanting to cause (or add to ) thread drift, but I used to train at a club here in Spain where the classes for brown and black belts were pretty much all the time full contact sparring without and protective gear apart from shin guards. It was more like Kyokushin than TKD. Toughened you up no end, but you were constantly injured.

The motto, which zDom's post reminded me of, was "A la cabeza que se note, al cuerpo a romper", which translates something like "Make sure they feel the head shots, break them with the body shots". And that was just regular in-house training.


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## exile (Oct 31, 2008)

SJON said:


> Not wanting to cause (or add to ) thread drift, but I used to train at a club here in Spain where the classes for brown and black belts were pretty much all the time full contact sparring without and protective gear apart from shin guards. It was more like Kyokushin than TKD. Toughened you up no end, but you were constantly injured.
> 
> The motto, which zDom's post reminded me of, was "A la cabeza que se note, al cuerpo a romper", which translates something like "Make sure they feel the head shots, break them with the body shots". And that was just regular in-house training.



But I think this is different from the kind of thing that Abernethy calls 'kata-based sparring', which isn't really sparring but is SD training using kata-based techs, based on street-realistic bunkai, in the face of strongly simulated HAOV-type attacks. It's good to be toughened up in such situations, but to me the 'sparring' that's of real SD value has the assailant doing a variety of grab/strike or attempted sucker-punch moves. Your 'fence' had better be good...

... from what I've seen, the model for this sort of thing in the KMAs, until quite recently anyway, is the way certain flavors of Hapkido train. It's all about not getting hit, and in taking, or putting, the attacker down to the ground, on the assumption that he's going to come at you with the typical street brawler's arsenal of methods. I gather this is also the approach that people like Petyon Quinn and Geoff Thompson advocate. Abernethy has said in print that he's had significant injuries, including fractures, from this sort of training, but that it's worth it for SD prep in the face of _real_ street violence.


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## SJON (Oct 31, 2008)

Indeed.

I think both types are important.

I think it's necessary to experience hard symmetrical sparring occasionally. It teaches you to fight. As far as I'm aware, all-out symmetrical sparring was Geoff Thompson's main model.

The key is to make it as similar to actual fighting as possible, i.e. get rid of the long distances, high kicks, backfists and feinting.

But I agree that the basis of SD training is good asymmetrical sparring. It's absolutely essential to forget the "karate attacks" and defend against committed, repeated "street brawling attacks".

And I would suggest that if you don't run the risk of getting injured occasionally (I mean concussion, a broken nose, broken ribs), then you're not doing anything that's going to be any use for actually defending yourself. You'll never get stressed enough, you'll never feel the urgency of someone actually trying to hurt you, and you'l just be playing a game that gives you a false sense of security.


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## zDom (Oct 31, 2008)

SJON said:


> It's absolutely essential to forget the "karate attacks" and defend against committed, repeated "street brawling attacks".



I have found that new students/people trying out a class are great for this. The bigger and meaner, the better.

The challenge is to "make a believer" out of them WITHOUT really hurting them. Hurting them, it always seems, would be MUCH easier.


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## YoungMan (Oct 31, 2008)

Practicing in a way that consistently injures you (fractures, concussions, broken bones etc.) does not make you a better martial artist. It does mean you will be much more likely to suffer health problems when you get older. 
This type of training tends to devolve into "I'm tougher than you because I've had more broken bones". That is a foolish attitude to have.


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## SJON (Nov 1, 2008)

Agreed, Youngman, but that's not the point I'm making.

It's quite possible to train using real attacks with real intent, and not get injured or into a "toughman" contest. In all these years I've only taken two moderate injuries from full-force asymmetrical sparring (broken nose and mild concussion). I also cracked a rib and broke numerous toes and a foot, but that was standard WTF sport sparring, with or without pads.

If you start slow and light, drill it well, and make sure everyone is taking it seriously and is concentrating, then there is no reason why people should be getting hurt regularly. It all depends on how you design and carry out the training.

I really do think, though, that it is good to experience full force symmetrical sparring (with hand strikes to the head) at some time even if students only do it once a year, and that your one-step stuff needs to be with full intent so that it will hurt if you're not on the ball. Otherwise there's just know way a student can know how he/she will react to (a) the idea of someone actually trying to hurt him/her (b) the pressure involved, and (c) the hurt itself.

Cheers,

Simon


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## Miles (Apr 9, 2009)

Sorry to resurrect this thread (well, not REALLY sorry otherwise, I would not have done so).

I purchased this book and read it over the weekend.  It is a history which revolves around the story of Gen. Choi.

It confirms some things I've heard and read about Gen. Choi and basically, like everyone else, he was a flawed person.  Unfortunately he alienated most everyone around him including his son (who comes off as extremely devoted), and many of his early colleagues (such as GMs Nam Tae Hi, Jong Soo Park, etc.).

Surprisingly, it makes Dr. Un Yong Kim out to be a very effective TKD administrator, in fact, the (spoken) comparison to Gen Choi makes the latter seem to be equally passionate about spreading the art, but not as effective.  Dr. Kim's conviction on bribery is detailed as political and that he and North Korean IOC member (and Gen Choi's personal choice as successor) Chang Ung were working together to bring peace on the Korean peninsula.

I am wondering if anyone else has had a chance to read this book and share their thoughts....


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## terryl965 (Apr 9, 2009)

I read it and what I found is alot of what I already knew or heard, the main thing that brothers me is the facts may or may not be as accurate as some seem to think. We must all read into the Art of TKD what we believe but in the long haul we must all be somewhat on the same page as to what is TKD and who did what to bring it to the general public. I wish I was really around to have seen and understood what some of these men went though for the Art itself.


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## StuartA (Apr 11, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> the main thing that brothers me is the facts may or may not be as accurate as some seem to think.


what makes you say that Terry?  Alex's cross references are pretty decent?

Stuart


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## exile (Apr 11, 2009)

Miles said:


> Surprisingly, it makes Dr. Un Yong Kim out to be a very effective TKD administrator, in fact, the (spoken) comparison to Gen Choi makes the latter seem to be equally passionate about spreading the art, but not as effective.  Dr. Kim's conviction on bribery is detailed as political and that he and North Korean IOC member (and Gen Choi's personal choice as successor) Chang Ung were working together to bring peace on the Korean peninsula.



My take is, AG paints a damning portrait of Un Yong Kim as, first, a KCIA operative (whose operations were thoroughly implicated throughout the 4,000+ pages of Congressional Koreagate testimony that was probably AG's primary source) and then a political operative who carried out the ROK's mandate to eliminate martial content from the art in the interest of promoting it as a purely sport activity suitable for the Olympics&#8212;the point of which, as AG observes, was not merely to bring renown on the world stage for South Korea, but equally importantly, to distract attention from the horrible human rights record of the latest phase of that at-that-point unbroken string of ROK military dictatorships , the regime of Gen. Roh-Tae-Woo. He presents abundant evidence that Kim's conviction was _not_ political, but in fact was simply the culmination of years of corruption going back into the 1980s at least, and that rather than 'working together for peace', the ROK government was actually _bribing_ the North Korean regime to 'make nice': cash on a gigantic scale in exchange for the North's accomodation of the South's Olympic ambitions. AG refers to the cash-for-cooperation deal as bribery on a massive scale, even greater than the huge international operation the ROK launched in North America and elsewhere at the beginning of the 1970s to silence, intimidate or kidnap back to Korea dissenting Korean expats, as part of its Cold War strategy against the North. _Everyone_ emerges from Gillis' pitiless narrative as corrupt, unscrupulous, largely or completely unconcerned about human rights and basic decency; Choi emerges as better morally, but only relatively so, than Kim, and so far as I can tell, the 'killing' in the title isn't so much about the military combative use of TKD (where it was an accurate description) but rather its role in the barbaric postwar history of Korea and the series of violently repressive military dictatorships which, AG argues, utilized it, and its practitioners, in their own efforts to consolidate their near-absolute power over their citizens&#8212;whom they robbed blind, at gunpoint.


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## terryl965 (Apr 11, 2009)

StuartA said:


> what makes you say that Terry? Alex's cross references are pretty decent?
> 
> Stuart


 
Stuart I am not saying whether he is or is not accurate, I am just saying that everything does not always seem to be what other seem to think.


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## irishwolf08 (Apr 13, 2009)

I actually bought this book when it first came out, I haven't finished it yet, got distracted with moving. But it was pretty interesting. Gen. Choi is a very...unique character to say the least. But I'm hoping to finish it soon. Overall, its a nice read, I think.


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## IcemanSK (Apr 16, 2009)

My copy just came in yesterday. AG's research seems to be extensive. Only 50 pages in, I'm wondering how the other kwan founders, & other GMs not mentioned in the book, factor into the equation. As extensive as this book is, I'm sure that would take several more volumes to add.


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## CDKJudoka (Apr 17, 2009)

Looks like I need to pick this book up. Any mention of GM Lee, Won Kuk?


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## IcemanSK (Apr 17, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> Looks like I need to pick this book up. Any mention of GM Lee, Won Kuk?


 
A few mentions, but he's not a main character in the book. Still an interesting read.


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## IcemanSK (Apr 18, 2009)

In the last few days since I got the book in the mail, I've done little else but read it.

I honestly kept looking for the author's spin and who he sympathized with in his story. I found that he saw the flaws in most of the characters, as well as good points in most. Letting the story unfold shed both good & bad light on all involved. 

The details of the KCIA intimidated Koreans around the world is pretty amazing. When I read those parts of the story it made me wonder how the "street-level" dojang masters reacted and dealt with it. To get that info would take another book, I suppose. 

It seemed like a mafia story with restraurant owners in the middle. The owners just want to run a good business. A lot liked the place where they got their linens (International Towel Fabrics) & had few problems. But then came World Towel Fabrics who said to be a good citzen, it was better to go with them. The restraurant owners were torn as to what to do. Rumors that the ITF chief wasn't a good citzen, plus the strong-arm tactics of the WTF (that added to the "decision" to be a "good citzen") made the WTF an easier choice as the restraurant owners just run their shops. Of course, many small shop owners probably never knew why the WTF is a better place to get linens. 

The focus of the book had to be on two people...the main players in this big story. But there were many more folks involved. Kwan leaders, pioneers who's stories were not told in this volume, and many others have interesting stories as well. But I doubt AG would want to delve into that, too. Researching this one was taxing enough, I'll bet.


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## Cyclona (May 9, 2009)

I recently read this. I wasn't impressed. First of all it says the author is a university professor, I found so many type-os and grammatical errors in this publication, I found it hard to believe he was a prof. Second of all, the writing made no sense! There would be non-sequitur sentences all over the place! He'd start talking about something yet it would be out of context and have nothing to do with what he was previously talking about!  I think this guy thought he was furthering his knowledge of taekwondo by researching & writing this book, but I thought it was really poorly written and full of personal vendettas for whatever reason. Not worth buying. Get it from a library if you really want to read it. But in my opinion it was not very good at all.


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## chrispillertkd (May 9, 2009)

Cyclona said:


> I recently read this. I wasn't impressed. First of all it says the author is a university professor, I found so many type-os and grammatical errors in this publication, I found it hard to believe he was a prof.


 
I've edited several books by some very well known university instructors. Let us just say that one's level of formal education doesn't necessarily directly correlate with their spelling and grammar skills. I've also read books published by major publishing houses that contain errors of fact, misquotes from other sources and faulty trabslations and these were books written by wel known scholars in their field. Getting a book into print, especially one that is a few hundred pages in length, with no grammatical errors is actually a very impressive accomplishment even in this day of spell-check. 



> Second of all, the writing made no sense! There would be non-sequitur sentences all over the place! He'd start talking about something yet it would be out of context and have nothing to do with what he was previously talking about! I think this guy thought he was furthering his knowledge of taekwondo by researching & writing this book, but I thought it was really poorly written and full of personal vendettas for whatever reason. Not worth buying. Get it from a library if you really want to read it. But in my opinion it was not very good at all.


 
I haven't read the book yet, so I can't comment on this except.

Pax,

Chris


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## NPTKD (May 9, 2009)

I liked it and it contain alot of info...But it made me feel cheap! I wonder if this book just backs up what all the other styles think of TKD?


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## Jphtkd (May 9, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> I liked it and it contain alot of info...But it made me feel cheap! I wonder if this book just backs up what all the other styles think of TKD?



Might just be me, but a lot of the "other styles" that think TKD is cheap, in my limited and small minded view of the world, were all over weight, pompous, self righteous wind bags that trained in archaic japanese styles. They couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag without being winded. 

I try to apply the philosophy I learned from my instructor every time I hear someone trash talk TKD. He explained to me that not every black belt is equal, and if you spend all your time worrying about what other people are doing, you are not gonna train hard enough to have a worth while opinon anyway.

Every time I test for another dan rank, I think of olympic high jumpers. If I clear the bar by 3 feet, the guy next to me that only cleared it by an inch, still made it. Self satisfaction was a tough discipline to master for me.


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## Cirdan (May 11, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


> Self satisfaction was a tough discipline to master for me.


 
mmh so I can see..



> Might just be me, but a lot of the "other styles" that think TKD is cheap, in my limited and small minded view of the world, were all over weight, pompous, self righteous wind bags that trained in archaic japanese styles. They couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag without being winded.


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