# Central London Bujinkan



## Razor (Feb 27, 2015)

Hello guys, 

Just wondering if anyone knows anything about this dojo: Time Place

I am interested in doing some training at it, but my instructor has not heard of it and the instructor's name is not listed on the website. My instructor encouraged me to just go to a session and see what it is like, which I will do, but I was just wondering if anyone on here might have been to it, heard of it, or have any kind of comments they would like to give on the dojo.


----------



## Chris Parker (Feb 27, 2015)

I have a feeling it's Dunc's club… but as you say, the information is scarce. I'd check with them to be sure.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 27, 2015)

Seems really weird that the instructor has a bio page which lists his/her training but not his/her name.

Or maybe Mr. and Mrs. Instructor just decided to name their kid "Chief"?


----------



## Chris Parker (Feb 28, 2015)

Actually… looking at the page in a bit more depth… I really hope it's not Dunc's club… there are some rather iffy occurrences across the site.

We can start on the linked page… there is some katakana on the side, which is used in Japanese to write out foreign words… but reading it out seems a bit… odd. It reads: (right column, should be read first) タイミング, which is read "Taimingu" (timing), (left column) デイスタンス, which reads "Deisutansu" (days and?)… so it's written backwards… and not particularly well… to mean "days and times". Okay, that might just seem nitpicking… and it might be… so let's continue.

The "Classes and Formats" page, under the description of "So what are the classes like?" talks about a lack of formality, likening such things to "egotistical hierarch(ies)"… uh, no… it would actually make it like traditional Japanese martial arts… of course, this is just the way the classes are run, and such approaches certainly have their place… but the seeming disdain for all the cultural Japanese elements to a supposedly "traditional Japanese martial art" school I find a little… disconcerting.

We could then look at the "The Art" page… which has a number of rather dubious ideas put forth, and some rather ignorant sweeping generalisations and assumptions (the descriptions of other organisations and other martial arts are particularly troubling)… but let's look at some simply incorrect information. Under the heading "Different Styles of Samurai Martial Arts (Jujutsu or Bujutsu)", there are a couple of paragraphs of related systems to those found in the Bujinkan, specifically Kukishinden Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu. The Kukishin material is wrong on a number of issues, but the other is worse. Instead of naming the system as Takagi Ryu, it instead constantly references it as "Yoshin Ryu". Nope, wrong, sorry, completely different art.

Each of the systems that are cited (Hontai Yoshin Ryu, although they incorrectly cite the previous head, Inoue Munenori, who passed a number of years ago, rather than his son and successor, Inoue Kyoichi, and Moto-ha Yoshin Ryu, which is a modern branch of the Hontai Yoshin Ryu founded by a Menkyo holder in the 80's, Yasumoto Akiyoshi), although not featuring the "Takagi" portion to their name anymore, are part of the Takagi Ryu line of systems… the Yoshin Ryu line is completely different, sometimes referred to as the Akiyama Yoshin Ryu, and is no longer extant, although there are a number of systems that trace themselves back to that art, such as Shindo Yoshin Ryu, Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, and Yoshin Ryu Naginata. But the point is that, despite the similar name, there is absolutely no connection between the Takagi systems and the Yoshin Ryu lines… so that's a major fail in simply knowing their own art.

I'm also with Tony in that the lack of a name for the instructor is something I find a little worrying… what we can figure out is that they are at least Judan, as there's a Judan patch on the site, and there is reference to the instructor having "inadvertently accumulated all the bling, badges & grades along the way" (an interesting way to say that the grade, although coming from the head of the system, isn't something to be proud of earning…), but that's about it. Couple that with the "we're more serious than anyone else" style comments ("as this is a real martial art…"), and I really, really hope this isn't Dunc's site. If it is… it really needs to be done over, as this is the site of someone who exemplifies all the issues with the organisation (large rank, lack of belief of personal ability/earning of the grade, tacit acceptance of low quality, lack of any real knowledge or understanding, lack of awareness of a range of realities, lack of awareness of the traits of Japanese arts, a desire to be doing something more than others without actually recognising what the reality is, and so on). The more I read, the less I would recommend even contacting them.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 28, 2015)

There seems to be several places calling themselves 'Bujinkan London'. here's just one of them.
The team Shadow Warrior Bujinkan London Dojo


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 28, 2015)

There is also Simon Yeo whom I have met and enjoyed talking two.  He comes recommended from
a friend who spent a lot of time training with him in Japan.
Welcome


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 28, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> There is also Simon Yeo whom I have met and enjoyed talking two.  He comes recommended from
> a friend who spent a lot of time training with him in Japan.
> Welcome



That's one of the ones I saw, how cool you know the chap though!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 28, 2015)

Met him at a Tai Kai here in the States and he's a good guy!


----------



## Razor (Mar 2, 2015)

Thanks for the in depth analysis Chris, I will bear that in mind. All I can say about the lack of formality is that the sound of that reminds me of my own instructor - although he doesn't say any of that on his website, he runs his sessions in a very friendly and informal way. This is in stark contrast to training at my TJF Jujutsu club; they are very much in to lining up in grade order and shouting at one another. Just different styles I guess! I would assume he may be coming from the angle of thinking that that sort of thing is what puts people off starting some martial arts.




Brian R. VanCise said:


> There is also Simon Yeo whom I have met and enjoyed talking two.  He comes recommended from
> a friend who spent a lot of time training with him in Japan.
> Welcome



Thanks Brian, yes I am aware of him! I have his book, helped me out with remembering a lot of the basics of the Kihon Happo. Very helpful for low grades as he goes through them all step by step with sections on common mistakes. His dojo is more expensive and more difficult for me to get to though, although I would like to train with him at some point, as I've heard good things too.

Thank you for the input everyone. I am going to go for a session at this dojo tomorrow to check it out and I will come back with my view on it (for whatever it's worth coming from a 4th-kyu!).


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 3, 2015)

Razor said:


> Thanks for the in depth analysis Chris, I will bear that in mind. All I can say about the lack of formality is that the sound of that reminds me of my own instructor - although he doesn't say any of that on his website, he runs his sessions in a very friendly and informal way. This is in stark contrast to training at my TJF Jujutsu club; they are very much in to lining up in grade order and shouting at one another. Just different styles I guess! I would assume he may be coming from the angle of thinking that that sort of thing is what puts people off starting some martial arts.



Not a problem.

Don't get me wrong, though… there's nothing wrong with a more laid-back, relaxed atmosphere… where I have an issue is where the aspects that make it traditional Japanese art are not only ignored, but belittled. I've seen people denigrate some of, what I would call the essential aspects of Japanese martial arts… things like reiho… as they consider them not useful for "fighting". There is an odd dichotomy happening in the Bujinkan in places, where certain members want to identify themselves as training in traditional Japanese martial arts, but actively minimise, avoid, or cut out anything that would actually identify them as such.

I mean… in pretty much all Koryu training I've dealt with (and, let's face it, that's about as "traditional Japanese martial arts" as you can get), there's always a relaxed atmosphere… except when it's necessary to be less-relaxed. It's never the uber-militarised, hyper-serious, completely regimented image that many might have of it… in fact, modern arts are more likely to do that than koryu are… but there's also never the avoidance of what makes it a traditional art in the first place.



Razor said:


> Thanks Brian, yes I am aware of him! I have his book, helped me out with remembering a lot of the basics of the Kihon Happo. Very helpful for low grades as he goes through them all step by step with sections on common mistakes. His dojo is more expensive and more difficult for me to get to though, although I would like to train with him at some point, as I've heard good things too.



Ah, Simon… yeah… look, my dealings with Simon have been rather different to this… I like a lot of what he's trying to do, honestly, but there are some other questions I have over how successfully he manages it… 



Razor said:


> Thank you for the input everyone. I am going to go for a session at this dojo tomorrow to check it out and I will come back with my view on it (for whatever it's worth coming from a 4th-kyu!).



Cool, look forward to it… and hoping it's not Dunc's class!


----------



## Jameswhelan (Mar 10, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> We can start on the linked page… there is some katakana on the side, which is used in Japanese to write out foreign words… but reading it out seems a bit… odd. It reads: (right column, should be read first) タイミング, which is read "Taimingu" (timing), (left column) デイスタンス, which reads "Deisutansu" (days and?)… so it's written backwards… and not particularly well… to mean "days and times". Okay, that might just seem nitpicking… and it might be… so let's continue.


 
it says   ディスタンス
not        デイスタンス

'Disutansu'.

Timing and distance. Two core principles of Mr Hatsumi's art written on their page about how far you may have to travel to get to them and when you should turn up. Quite clever actually.


----------



## dunc (Mar 11, 2015)

Sorry I'm an occasional visitor to MT - hence the slow reply

That'll be my site...

I wrote the site ages ago and haven't really given it the time it deserves

Chris is right - The Yoshin Ryu section should be Hontai Yoshin Ryu &/or Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and I should update the text etc
No idea what's wrong with the kukishinden description, but it's minimal

I try to run the club with the same level of formality that one sees in our soke's classes - ie very little vs say most traditional Japanese arts. The intention is to highlight the difference, not to disrespect other approaches

I believe that the enforcement of hierarchies, grades etc tends to detract from the training. Maybe it's my own baggage, but to be honest, in the bujinkan's context I think it's healthy to distance oneself from that side of things. I also feel that that's consistent with how Soke runs things

I'm a bit concerned that it may give the impression that the site


Chris Parker said:


> is the site of someone who exemplifies all the issues with the organisation (large rank, lack of belief of personal ability/earning of the grade, tacit acceptance of low quality, lack of any real knowledge or understanding, lack of awareness of a range of realities, lack of awareness of the traits of Japanese arts, a desire to be doing something more than others without actually recognising what the reality is, and so on). The more I read, the less I would recommend even contacting them.



Not my intention clearly 

Probably I should have a look at it sometime soon

Would welcome people's thoughts as to how it might be improved


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2015)

Not my martial art so know next to nothing about it but would like to say welcome to MT Dunc. I think that's a really good post too, honest and humble.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 11, 2015)

dunc said:


> Sorry I'm an occasional visitor to MT - hence the slow reply
> 
> That'll be my site...
> 
> ...



Don't slag off other styles in your website. It comes across terribly.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Don't slag off other styles in your website. It comes across terribly.




 There are several other UK organisations and instructors that claim to teach ninjutsu. Examples are The British Combat Ninjutsu Association, the UK Shinobi Kai and so on. Unfortunately I have not seen any of the people leading these organisations study for a meaningful amount of time under a qualified instructor of the old Japanese systems. As a result their use of the term ninjutsu in marketing is, in my view, quite misleading.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Don't slag off other styles in your website. It comes across terribly.



Mr Pot? There's a Mr Kettle on the phone for you.


----------



## dunc (Mar 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Don't slag off other styles in your website. It comes across terribly.



Am I slagging off other styles?

My intention is to be neutral and respectful of the founders of the other xkans and the traditional styles

Maybe a bit of a pop at Ashida Kim's, Combat Ninjutsu and outlining the difference between Bbd (easily confused with bujinkan).....

Perhaps that's a bit immature, I take your point


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 11, 2015)

dunc said:


> Am I slagging off other styles?
> 
> My intention is to be neutral and respectful of the founders of the other xkans and the traditional styles
> 
> ...



A pop at a total nutter like Ashida Kim is always warranted...


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 11, 2015)

dunc said:


> Sorry I'm an occasional visitor to MT - hence the slow reply
> 
> That'll be my site...
> 
> ...



Glad to have you here and hope to learn more about your dojo and your training!


----------



## Razor (Mar 20, 2015)

Just wanted to finally say what I thought as well (got a bit busy there for a couple of weeks). Things that I can't comment on like Japanese and website design aside, the dojo was very good in my opinion. Duncan is a very helpful, encouraging and attentive instructor. Obviously I'm not qualified to comment on technique or anything, but everything seemed to be in a similar vein to what my normal instructor teaches, maybe with a slightly different perspective on a couple of things. 

 In terms of formality, the dojo is actually slightly more formal than I'm used to as they do the formal start and finish (sitting in seiza, bowing and clapping), however the class is also bigger than my normal one, so perhaps this makes more sense with more people. 

On a more personal note the people are all very friendly and helpful and all seem up for meeting new people, so I'll definitely be looking to return to this dojo!


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2015)

Razor said:


> they do the formal start and finish



Not a bad thing though, it gets you in 'the mood' for training and then finishes with a quiet mind rather than still 'hyped up'.


----------



## Razor (Mar 21, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Not a bad thing though, it gets you in 'the mood' for training and then finishes with a quiet mind rather than still 'hyped up'.



Agreed Tez, I do not have anything against it personally - I've trained at clubs in the Bujinkan and TJF Jujutsu who have both done and not done this kind of start and finish. I don't mind it too much myself, but I suppose I am a bit more accustomed to the informal approach as the first Bujinkan club I started at (and indeed the first martial art I started) did not do this. In my opinion it's ultimately up to how the instructor wants to run the club, so if that's what they want to do, I'll go with it as I'm only a guest at their dojo!


----------



## dunc (Mar 21, 2015)

I believe it's up to the instructor to run the class as they see fit
It's a personal preference - so I think it's cool either way

In my small classes I don't do the do the bowing in and out, but in the main class I run it as close as I can to the way classes are run in Japan

The only difference is that, as it's a long class, we switch partners periodically during the evening. This is done at one of the shihan's classes in Japan and used to be done at a few dojos before the hombu was built. I like it because it's good experience to train with different people and it helps everyone get to know each other


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

Jameswhelan said:


> it says   ディスタンス
> not        デイスタンス
> 
> 'Disutansu'.
> ...



Hi James,

Ah, good catch. Yep, I didn't notice the smaller "イ" there... you're quite right.



dunc said:


> Sorry I'm an occasional visitor to MT - hence the slow reply
> 
> That'll be my site...
> 
> I wrote the site ages ago and haven't really given it the time it deserves



Hey Dunc,

Cool.



dunc said:


> Chris is right - The Yoshin Ryu section should be Hontai Yoshin Ryu &/or Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and I should update the text etc
> No idea what's wrong with the kukishinden description, but it's minimal



Er... no. It should be "Takagi Ryu", if you want to go that way. The Hontai Yoshin Ryu is a line of the Takagi Ryu, not of the Yoshin Ryu. As far as the Kukishin information, the idea that the Bujinkan is the only place to find it might be argued with by the Genbukan membership, for instance... 

With the idea of commenting on other organisations, schools, systems etc, to be honest, it can look a little petty when talking about how you don't recommend them, and when listing other schools around, unless you know what's actually around, simply listing the ones you know about is rather, well, pointless.



dunc said:


> I try to run the club with the same level of formality that one sees in our soke's classes - ie very little vs say most traditional Japanese arts. The intention is to highlight the difference, not to disrespect other approaches



Sure.



dunc said:


> I believe that the enforcement of hierarchies, grades etc tends to detract from the training. Maybe it's my own baggage, but to be honest, in the bujinkan's context I think it's healthy to distance oneself from that side of things. I also feel that that's consistent with how Soke runs things



Oh, I get the way the Bujinkan works... but when you talk about the age of the schools, talk about the idea that the criteria is "a strong link to Japan", but then go completely against the way traditional arts are structured, it gets rather, well, odd. And, bluntly, I have major issues with that aspect of the Bujinkan on a number of fronts, and see it as symptomatic of the larger issues, as listed earlier.



dunc said:


> I'm a bit concerned that it may give the impression that the site
> 
> 
> Not my intention clearly
> ...



Okay. Again, the views on the issues with the Bujinkan are mine... I freely and openly accept that the Bujinkan is the way for many people, and that it works for them, fantastic.



Razor said:


> Just wanted to finally say what I thought as well (got a bit busy there for a couple of weeks). Things that I can't comment on like Japanese and website design aside, the dojo was very good in my opinion. Duncan is a very helpful, encouraging and attentive instructor. Obviously I'm not qualified to comment on technique or anything, but everything seemed to be in a similar vein to what my normal instructor teaches, maybe with a slightly different perspective on a couple of things.
> 
> In terms of formality, the dojo is actually slightly more formal than I'm used to as they do the formal start and finish (sitting in seiza, bowing and clapping), however the class is also bigger than my normal one, so perhaps this makes more sense with more people.
> 
> On a more personal note the people are all very friendly and helpful and all seem up for meeting new people, so I'll definitely be looking to return to this dojo!



Cool. And, to clarify, when I was saying that I hoped the site wasn't Dunc's, it wasn't a comment on Dunc as a practitioner or teacher... in fact, quite the opposite. I'm quite fond of the way Dunc comports himself, and was hoping that a site with such issues (as I saw them) wasn't associated with someone I do like (as a practitioner).


----------



## dunc (Mar 23, 2015)

Hi Chris

I know that you disagree with much of the bujinkan's approach to things and that's cool

I feel that a strong link to Japan is important to have credibility in teaching these arts. The heirarchies, formality etc are separate to this point

However, perhaps the wording used on the site causes some people offence or creates more confusion than it solves and I'm resolved to update it when time permits

Best

D


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 23, 2015)

I would also concur that a strong and current link to Japan is essential in studying the Takamatsuden arts. 

Whether it is with the Bujinkan and Hatsumi Sensei, Genbukan with Tanemura Sensei and or the Jinenkan with Manaka Sensei.  I really don't care even though my preference is of course with the Bujinkan.  It is hard if not outright impossible to study the Takamatsuden arts without a link to Japan.


----------



## Jameswhelan (Apr 1, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Yep, I didn't notice the smaller "イ" there...


 
What is the level of your Japanese proficiency?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Apr 1, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would also concur that a strong and current link to Japan is essential in studying the Takamatsuden arts.



Just playing devil's advocate (since I don't train in the Bujinkan anymore), but why?

Hatsumi trained with Takmatsu for ten years. Therefore, whatever he knows of the Takamatsuden arts (and later passed on to Manaka and Tanemura) was either a) material that could be learned in ten years of instruction or b) material that could be figured out in subsequent self-training by someone who has that foundation of ten years instruction.

At this point, there are numerous people who have had at least ten years of direct instruction from high-level teachers of the Takamatsuden arts. Some have many more than that. (I'm not counting the folks who stopped in to Japan for a week or two of training each year for ten years.) Hatsumi has been teaching for over 40 years. Unless he is the worst teacher on earth, there should be quite a few individuals, not all Japanese, who are just as qualified to teach the Takamatsuden arts as he was when he became Soke.

I do understand that Hatsumi has put his own personal stamp on his interpretation of the arts in the Bujinkan. If you want to pursue that particular interpretation, then you need to stay connected to the Bujinkan. However anyone who has that same technical foundation that he started with should be able to develop their own interpretation of the Takamatsuden arts which is just as valid as the interpretations Hatsumi, Tanemura, and Manaka have come up with.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Apr 1, 2015)

Correction to my previous post - Wikipedia says Hatsumi trained with Takamatsu for 15 years. For some reason I was remembering it as 10. Either way, my point still stands.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 1, 2015)

Hey Tony,

*Hatsumi Sensei inherited the arts from Takamatsu Sensei*.  That is a big difference than everyone else training.  Tanemura Sensei received Menkyo Kaiden as well as Manaka Sensei.  Another huge difference!  Unfortunately since the early years people have gone to Japan trained a little and then went out to set up their mini-ninja empire.  Most of the time they had some decent training say up to Shodan or maybe a little above.  Which if you take into account how grades are handed out in the Bujinkan that is not very much give or take of course on the individual because their are exceptions of course.  So quite frankly there were some poor teachers out there teaching that really should not have been teaching.  Which has led us to the great mess of quality control that is in the Bujinkan.  So how to counter this?  How to make sure *that you* are getting quality training?  Simply train with a sensei who consistently goes to Japan and or brings someone who does train in Japan.  That is one sure way to make sure that you are receiving authentic training.  Another would be to move to Japan and study with Hatsumi Sensei and the Japanese Shihan.  If you want "the goods" in the Takamatsuden arts then you pretty much have to go this route.  *If you want "these goods" your going to have to sacrifice a bit*.  Otherwise you run the chance of training with someone who simply doesn't have the skills in the Takamatsuden arts because they do not have a link.  Which of course unfortunately their are a lot of people out there who fit this.

If you train in the following three organizations:

Bujinkan
Genbukan
Jinenkan

and your teacher trains in Japan and or has people who train in Japan come and teach at his/her dojo then you are probably getting quality training. 

If not, then you are probably not getting authentic Takamatsuden training.

This would be no different than training under a BJJ purple belt.  If he wasn't affiliated with a BJJ black belt for quality control then you might not be getting good Brazilian Jiujitsu training.  It might be okay but not to the standard of what it should be.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Apr 1, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Tony,
> 
> *Hatsumi Sensei inherited the arts from Takamatsu Sensei*.  That is a big difference than everyone else training.  Tanemura Sensei received Menkyo Kaiden as well as Manaka Sensei.  Another huge difference!  Unfortunately since the early years people have gone to Japan trained a little and then went out to set up their mini-ninja empire.  Most of the time they had some decent training say up to Shodan or maybe a little above.  Which if you take into account how grades are handed out in the Bujinkan that is not very much give or take of course on the individual because their are exceptions of course.  So quite frankly there were some poor teachers out there teaching that really should not have been teaching.  Which has led us to the great mess of quality control that is in the Bujinkan.  So how to counter this?  How to make sure *that you* are getting quality training?  Simply train with a sensei who consistently goes to Japan and or brings someone who does train in Japan.  That is one sure way to make sure that you are receiving authentic training.  Another would be to move to Japan and study with Hatsumi Sensei and the Japanese Shihan.  If you want "the goods" in the Takamatsuden arts then you pretty much have to go this route.  *If you want "these goods" your going to have to sacrifice a bit*.  Otherwise you run the chance of training with someone who simply doesn't have the skills in the Takamatsuden arts because they do not have a link.  Which of course unfortunately their are a lot of people out there who fit this.
> 
> ...


 Hi, Brian.

None of that information is news to me. I'm familiar with the history of the X-Kans and with the ... idiosyncratic approach to ranking within the Bujinkan. It doesn't address my point.

To reiterate that point - a reasonably talented and dedicated student who trained in Japan with Hatsumi or one of his Shihans consistently for 10-15 years should have about the same level of mastery of the Takamatsuden arts as Hatsumi himself did when he became Soke. (Likewise for someone who did the equivalent level of training with Manaka or Tanemura.) Practitioners like this exist. Some of them live in the United States, Europe, and Israel. Someone who trained under one of these practitioners should be linked to a source of Takamatsuden knowledge and skills as legit as someone who trains in Japan.

I can imagine objections you might raise. Let me address some of them.

*Objection 1: Hatsumi inherited the Soke title. Manaka and Tanemura received Menkyo Kaiden.*
Titles don't magically convey knowledge or skills. The Soke title indicates a certain type of "cultural copyright" in Japanese society, for those who care about such things. (I don't.) In some koryu traditions the Soke isn't even a practitioner of the art, just a member of the founder's family who maintains "authority" over an art he doesn't even practice. Menkyo Kaiden at least informs you that the recipient has (in the opinion of the issuer) received the full art that is being credentialed. Realistically, such licenses may be issued or not issued based on a variety of factors beyond skill and knowledge. If Manaka and Tanemura had not received said licenses, they would still have had the exact same skill and knowledge. (As a side note, I believe that there are folks outside Japan who have received Menkyo Kaiden in various arts from Hatsumi at this point.)

*Objection 2: Hatsumi is extraordinarily gifted and was able to learn more in his time with Takamatsu than others could learn in an equivalent amount of time under him.*
This would be difficult to prove or disprove. I will say that if in over 40 years of teaching Hatsumi has not managed to fully convey everything he learned from Takamatsu several times over to numerous students, then he is a crappy teacher.

*Objection 3: The Takamatsuden arts are culturally Japanese and foreigners will not be able to grasp the nuances of Japanese culture and language well enough to master the arts without continued guidance from Japanese masters.*
I think this argument would have much more force if we were discussing koryu arts where preserving a cultural tradition is more of the central point. The Bujinkan arts have been promoted as something universally applicable, not as a cultural artifact comprehensible only to those who grew up speaking the right language. Anyway, physical skills either work or they don't regardless of your cultural background.

*Objection 4: But Instructor X from the ABC X-kan splinter group had very little actual training and a low level of skill before breaking away to become grandmaster of his own organization.*
Yeah, I'm not talking about instructor X or anyone else specifically. Just talking theoretically. (I will note that if Hatsumi didn't want these folks diluting his brand, he probably shouldn't have awarded them high dan ranks, but that's another discussion.)

*Objection 5: Hatsumi has progressed over the decades since Takamatsu's death and by staying connected to Japan you gain the benefits of those decades of experience.*
I have no objection to those who want to follow this path. Just remember that those decades of experience are essentially Hatsumi teaching himself. Theoretically anyone who started with an equivalent knowledge base could teach themselves the same way.

If you have different objections, I'd be curious to hear them.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 1, 2015)

Tony if someone reasonably *trained in Japan* with Hatsumi Sensei, the Japanese Shihan or with Tanemura Sensei in the Genbukan or Manaka Sensei in the Jinenkan for 10 to 15 years I believe they would have plenty of experience to be teaching.  I would have few objections with these type of people who invested their time to learn the Takamatsuden arts in a serious manner like this.  There are of course people out there like this though they are few and far between though.    Though there are some.  *The question is what do we think of as trained in Japan*?  If someone lived there I would imagine they were getting good instruction directly from the source.  If someone traveled there once in awhile and supplemented their training with learning from people also going I think this can work as well.  If someone trains with a Sensei who goes there frequently (I know several) then this could work as well also.  All of these require a link to one of the leaders of the Kan's.  Unfortunately, a good proportion of practitioners do not and have never trained with people fitting these requirements.  They have in general gotten from what I have seen poor transmission of skill sets.  However, you know this as well as I do!


----------

