# New From the WKKA...Kenpo Self Protection



## hongkongfooey (Jan 15, 2006)

Hi, 

I came across this at the WKKA site. Apparently it is a course that allows schools that don't teach Kenpo, to learn principles and self defense techniques of AK, and incorporate this information into their respective styles. What does everyone think of this? Good idea or potential for disaster?

http://www.wkka.org/index.asp?content_id=855


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## Flying Crane (Jan 15, 2006)

Personally, I can't see how it would be very successful.  On the surface, it is sort of implying that all other arts are deficient in self defense, and I doubt too many people from other arts are going to see it that way.  It almost seems arrogant and I doubt it will be well received.

They claim the entire program is "scientifically tested".  I am sceptical about that claim.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I just can't imagine how you can scientifically test this kind of thing.  It assumes double-blind experiments with control and test groups and the such, and I just doubt this happened.

Sounds like a lot of home DVD training.  Another mail order blackbelt program?


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## Blindside (Jan 15, 2006)

Honestly, it doesn't sound a whole lot different than when kenpo was expanding across the US.  You could answer an ad to be a "kenpo instructor" get some lessons and go teach what you know, if you had prior experience all the better.  It has been used in the past by Parker, Tracy, Villari, and Kara-Ho ken(m)pos when they were expanding their organizations.  I don't like it, but lets recognize that it certainly isn't a new trick.

Lamont


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## Seabrook (Jan 16, 2006)

From a business standpoint, the idea of adding new techniques to ones existing curriculum (assuming a non-Kenpo school) can be exciting for many schools, so it may work. Many traditional styles of martial arts lack an effective street self-defense program, so something like this could be just what some studio owners are looking for. 

From a Kenpo perspective, 1 day certification seems....ah...ah.....FAST.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## arnisador (Jan 16, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Many traditional styles of martial arts lack an effective street self-defense program, so something like this could be just what some studio owners are looking for.


 
I doubt many such people would feel that their own system was ineffective...and fewer yet would feel that adding Kenpo is the answer, In today's climate, they'd want to add Krav Maga or grappling or some such--that's what's hot now.


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## Seabrook (Jan 16, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I doubt many such people would feel that their own system was ineffective...and fewer yet would feel that adding Kenpo is the answer, In today's climate, they'd want to add Krav Maga or grappling or some such--that's what's hot now.


 
Three different schools in my area (all non-Kenpo) have approached me about setting up a regular American Kenpo program for their schools. I taught at two Shorin-Ryu schools in my hometown in the past, and both of them now offer some of the EPAK techniques in their curriculum.  

Of course, I wasn't offering any type of certification, however. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Flying Crane (Jan 16, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Many traditional styles of martial arts lack an effective street self-defense program, so something like this could be just what some studio owners are looking for.


 
You know this first hand?  about which traditional styles?


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## clfsean (Jan 16, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> You know this first hand? about which traditional styles?


 
Fair question.


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## Seabrook (Jan 17, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> You know this first hand? about which traditional styles?


 
There are way too many examples to list. I have taught many traditional stylists who believed that:

(1) In Pinan Sandan, both hands should actually be on your hips as the attacker comes with a right step-through punch to the ribs. Problem: (a) why in the world would you put both hands on your hips if someone was trying to take your head off? (b) I said "head" on purpose. If your hands are on your hips, wouldn't one think that the attacker just might try to punch you to the head area? 

(2) Another similar example is when in traditional kata you execute a side kick with both hands at one hip. You couldn't imagine how many traditional style black belts have no clue why their hands do that. I have taught EPAK to many black belts from traditional schools (Shorin Ryu, Shorinji Ryu, Shotokan, Gojo Ryu, Wado Kai, ect.) and humbly asked them the application of these movements. 

(3) Depending on the style, some call it Wansu, others Empi. In any case, the very first move starts with a right "downward block" as you drop all the way down to your right knee. The common application I see at MANY SCHOOLS: this move is to block a kick. My question: why drop down to your knee to block?

(4) In Sanchin, you tense, cross your arms in front of you, and bring your arms apart. I have seen at many seminars traditional style high-ranking black belts teach this for a two-handed lapel grab, in which you clear the opponent's arms off without any notion of a pin 

I am just being honest, and I could list DOZENS of more examples.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## clfsean (Jan 17, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> There are way too many examples to list. I have taught many traditional stylists who believed that:
> 
> (1) In Pinan Sandan, both hands should actually be on your hips as the attacker comes with a right step-through punch to the ribs. Problem: (a) why in the world would you put both hands on your hips if someone was trying to take your head off? (b) I said "head" on purpose. If your hands are on your hips, wouldn't one think that the attacker just might try to punch you to the head area?
> 
> ...


 
So it's your assertion that because certain techniques are practiced in a certain manner in a certain kata, that's the way they would interpret & use it in a situation where they had to defend themselves?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 17, 2006)

clfsean said:
			
		

> So it's your assertion that because certain techniques are practiced in a certain manner in a certain kata, that's the way they would interpret & use it in a situation where they had to defend themselves?


 
Yeah, I think CLFSEAN is right.  Every system has movements, often in Kata, that wouldn't be practical unless altered for application.  Also, some people interpret a movement in kata in a way that might not be very practical, but that movement could be interpreted in dozens of useful ways.  In this case, they just need to reexamine their material and dig a little deeper.

I don't think this means that all these traditional arts don't have good self defense capabilities, and I doubt that they will be flocking to this program to learn kenpo.  Maybe some people will because they might find themselves interested in kenpo anyway, but I doubt all these teachers of traditional arts are just looking around for a way to fill the "holes" in their system, and see Kenpo as the savior.

I am a kenpo guy myself, and I think it has a lot of great stuff, but it's not the only system that has a lot of great stuff.  When I was in college and had already earned my blackbelt, I met a student who was an exchange student from Mexico.  His goal was to be on the Mexican Tae Kwon Do olympic team.  We got together to work out a couple of times, and he kicked my *** up and down.  And I am talking about sophisticated stuff, not just point sparring game of tag stuff.  He was setting me up, taking me down, hitting hard and fast with sophisticated and intelligent combinations, and all kinds of stuff.  

Now up until this time, we (my kenpo instructors and those in my class) used Tae Kwon Do as our whipping boy.  We felt it was useless (my instructors also had backgrounds in Tae Kwon Do, one of them a blackbelt, so I trusted what they said) and thought kenpo would beat it every time.  We never missed an opportunity to badmouth it.  But that experience in college sure opened my eyes wide.  I still don't have an interest in learning tae kwon do myself, but I have a much greater respect for the fact that there are people out there who are very very good at it.

Of course someone could argue that Tae Kwon Do really is useless, and I am even worse then that, but I'm not going to have that discussion here.  

Different systems have different strengths and weaknesses.  They also have a different kind of appeal, so people are attracted to them for different reasons.  But if one really learns the system well, they all have good stuff to offer.  

Many people nowadays cross train in several systems, so the thought of people from other systems learning kenpo certainly is not unusual.  But the way this program is marketed, and comments that imply other arts are useless are, in my opinion, reckless and myopic, and can come across as arrogant.  I think people need to be a little careful about making that kind of implication.  It may come back to haunt them some time.


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## Ginsu (Jan 17, 2006)

Well Said FC........


_Ginsu_


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## Seabrook (Jan 17, 2006)

clfsean said:
			
		

> So it's your assertion that because certain techniques are practiced in a certain manner in a certain kata, that's the way they would interpret & use it in a situation where they had to defend themselves?


 
The way you train is a key predictor of outcome if attacked on the street. If you are constantly practising unrealistic techniques that could get you in a lot of trouble, yes, I think you will have much more difficulty defending yourself than those who adhere to the concepts and principles of American Kenpo and that practice realistic techniques with a resistant partner. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Seabrook (Jan 17, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I don't think this means that all these traditional arts don't have good self defense capabilities, and I doubt that they will be flocking to this program to learn kenpo.


 
I never said that. George Dillman, as well as many others who have researched the true meanings of the applications contained in kata, are excellent at breaking down the movements contained in traditional kata and making them devasting, practical, and VERY realistic. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## clfsean (Jan 17, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> The way you train is a key predictor of outcome if attacked on the street. If you are constantly practising unrealistic techniques that could get you in a lot of trouble, yes, I think you will have much more difficulty defending yourself than those who adhere to the concepts and principles of American Kenpo and that practice realistic techniques with a resistant partner.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


 
Oh ok. 

So again... just making sure I understand... American Kenpo principles & concepts will be the only viable way of self defense based on the training methods used of "realistic techniques with a resistant partner"? That any & all other techniques are possibly unrealistic & practiced as such will get me in trouble?

Are those points what I'm to understand?


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## Seabrook (Jan 17, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Different systems have different strengths and weaknesses. They also have a different kind of appeal, so people are attracted to them for different reasons. But if one really learns the system well, they all have good stuff to offer.


 
I agree 100%, as I have also studied, and hold black belts in Modern Arnis, Black Dragon Kung Fu, and Shorinji-Ryu Karate. All I was saying is that there is a lot being taught today at MANY martial arts schools that is unrealistic in terms of practical self-defense. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Seabrook (Jan 17, 2006)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Oh ok.
> 
> So again... just making sure I understand... American Kenpo principles & concepts will be the only viable way of self defense based on the training methods used of "realistic techniques with a resistant partner"? That any & all other techniques are possibly unrealistic & practiced as such will get me in trouble?
> 
> Are those points what I'm to understand?


 
Where did you get that information from? I gave SPECIFIC examples that I constantly see in many "traditional" katas that I said were unrealistic.


Jamie Seabrook


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## Flying Crane (Jan 17, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I agree 100%, as I have also studied, and hold black belts in Modern Arnis, Black Dragon Kung Fu, and Shorinji-Ryu Karate. All I was saying is that there is a lot being taught today at MANY martial arts schools that is unrealistic in terms of practical self-defense.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


 
Kenpo has an approach to the curriculum that gives a practitioner a very practical view on what works and what doesn't work, and on being able to interpret movement into useful technique.  My Wing Chun instructor once admitted that he did not know how to interpret a movement from the Bil Gee set.  I immediately pointed out a couple of possibilities.  I believe it was my kenpo training that allowed me to see meaning in the movement.

I think the fallacy in this particular program, however, is in thinking that those who practice these other arts themselves believe their arts have deficiencies.  Maybe kenpo gives certain advantages, but other systems also probably have advantages that kenpo doesn't have.  I think that marketing this program to instructors of other systems will get a poor reception because these people probably don't believe their arts are deficient.  It is only in the opinion of the kenpo people that it does have deficiencies, but just because the kenpo people might have that opinion does not make it true.

Let's turn this situation around.  What if a Gracie Jujutsu organization marketed their program to supplement other martial arts, and specifically kenpo.  You as an individual might decide that you want to crosstrain in GJJ because perhaps you personally have an interest in it.  However, if they tried to throw in your face that kenpo as a system is inherently flawed and is therefor inferior, and only GJJ can fix kenpos problems, you would not accept that approach.  While it may not explicitly state this, it does suggest that really, you should stop doing kenpo and only do GJJ.

This is why I don't think this particular program will be well received, and I think people who take this kind of approach to other systems need to be careful about how they hustle their material.


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## clfsean (Jan 17, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Where did you get that information from? I gave SPECIFIC examples that I constantly see in many "traditional" katas that I said were unrealistic.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook


 
Well I got that from your post here... http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=485115&postcount=13

which says exactly... 


			
				Seabrook said:
			
		

> The way you train is a key predictor of outcome if attacked on the street. If you are constantly practising unrealistic techniques that could get you in a lot of trouble, yes, I think you will have much more difficulty defending yourself than those who adhere to the concepts and principles of American Kenpo and that practice realistic techniques with a resistant partner.


 
which is coming from my original question to you of... 



			
				clfsean said:
			
		

> So it's your assertion that because certain techniques are practiced in a certain manner in a certain kata, that's the way they would interpret & use it in a situation where they had to defend themselves?


 
Which is based off a larger post above listing some Japanese & Okinawan kata that for brevity sake I'm not posting here.

I asked you, maybe unclearly,  if you thought just because a motion was contained & practiced in a kata as "A" if you believed it had to be applied as "A". This is not withstanding any traditional bunkai of the technique or henka applied by the player.

You answered by saying the techniques were unrealistic & could get a person in a lot of trouble. You went on to say that those who practice American Kenpo will not have as much difficulty in dealing with said attacker. 

I simply asked if ... 


			
				clfsean said:
			
		

> <snipped> .... American Kenpo principles & concepts will be the only viable way of self defense based on the training methods used of "realistic techniques with a resistant partner"? That any & all other techniques are possibly unrealistic & practiced as such will get me in trouble?


 
And you replied above. I'm still awaiting an answer please.


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## Seabrook (Jan 17, 2006)

clfsean said:
			
		

> I asked you, maybe unclearly, if you thought just because a motion was contained & practiced in a kata as "A" if you believed it had to be applied as "A". This is not withstanding any traditional bunkai of the technique or henka applied by the player.
> .


 
Of course not. There a plenty of applications contained in forms based on the interpretation of the same movements. 

Again, for at least the third time, I said that many traditional schools are teaching UNREALISTIC APPLICATIONS of the techniques contained within their katas. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## clfsean (Jan 17, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Of course not. There a plenty of applications contained in forms based on the interpretation of the same movements.


 
Ok... at least that's a little more realistic.



			
				Seabrook said:
			
		

> Again, for at least the third time, I said that many traditional schools are teaching UNREALISTIC APPLICATIONS of the techniques contained within their katas.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


 
Could you give a rock solid example of a single UNREALISTIC APPLICATION taught within a traditional school's kata as you've encountered in your experience?? Something simple that we'll all recognize & first describe what you encountered as taught buy that teacher. Maybe something from a Pinan/Heian??


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## Seabrook (Jan 17, 2006)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Could you give a rock solid example of a single UNREALISTIC APPLICATION taught within a traditional school's kata as you've encountered in your experience?? Something simple that we'll all recognize & first describe what you encountered as taught buy that teacher. Maybe something from a Pinan/Heian??


 
I already have.


Jamie Seabrook


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## Flying Crane (Jan 17, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I already have.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook


 
Well, you did list some examples from your experience.  I don't know the specific kata that you mentioned, so I can't comment too much about that, but I do understand what you are saying about "hands on hips" and such.

However, these experiences may not be representative of these arts across the board.  If you have worked with and taught some of these instructors, then you have managed to develop some kind of relationship with them.  They may like and respect you and what you have to offer, and are open minded and interested in learning some kenpo.  I think in your case, perhaps you have developed a situation that is beneficial for all involved.  But I think this is the only way it can be done: one-on-one, like you have done it.  When people get to know and respect each other, they are more open to learning from each other.  Barriers and ego gets lowered and minds open up.  

But I think your situation and experiences with these other schools is unlikely to be the norm.  Probably most other schools don't perceive a deficiency in their system (whether a deficiency exists in truth, or not).  They may cross train with other schools that are convenient and close, and are or are not kenpo schools, since cross training is common.  But again, I don't think the program, as presented by WKKA, would be successful on a broad scale, for the reasons I have listed earlier.  I really doubt that some random instructor from some random, non-kenpo system, is going to see that advertisement on that website, pick up the phone and make a call to sign up.  Unless a connection with a specific kenpo instructor is made in some other way, I just don't see this happening.

I guess I am trying to keep the discussion centered more around the WKKA program, since that is the topic of the thread.


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## arnisador (Jan 17, 2006)

I remember being at a martial arts summer camp for Modern Arnis in Lansing, Michigan one summer. A Kenpo brown belt was telling Mr. Hartman and me about how great Kenpo was. She explained that, unlike in other arts, every move in Kenpo was scientifically designed for effectiveness and every move was understood and important. We asked her to demonstrate a form. She did. Afterward I asked her why she made a certain move (left arm is out from a punch, right arm goes beneath it with one finger pointing up, others bent, and rests alongside the tricep). She said, "I don't know; we just do it." She had memorized the spiel but obviously hadn't thought about it. In fact, I don't think the contradictiuon even registered for her. I knew one interpretation of the move from a Kung Fu teacher...who didn't regard it as a fighting technique.

At my first tournament I fought a slightly higher-ranked Kenpoist who had been studying longer than I had. I beat him 3-0 on two roundhouse kicks and a reverse punch. Afterwards he came up to me...to explain that, according to Kenpo principles, I was doing the roundhouse kick incorrectly. I told him I was studying Karate, but he still insisted that the kick was wrong. I didn't point out that it was good enough to score on him twice, unanswered. I'll spare everyone the story of another Kenpo brown belt 'teaching' me how to hold an arnis stick at an arnis camp at which I was an instructor. She even used Ed Parker's name in explaining to me what I was doing wrong. Let's just say that I, uh, disagreed with her analysis.

I could go on at great length. Every art has its share of poor performers and outright nutcases, but it somehow seems to be a requirement for all the Kenpo nutcases to track me down and show me their stuff. So, I have more Kenpo horror stories than I have from any other single art. (The ones above aren't even horror stories, in fact.) The point is that the comments made about the TMA people not knowing their art and its applications could be told about Kenpoists in other circumstances. Competent instructors know their material, know how to use it, and know its limits; but, not every instructor is competent. It sounds like *Seabrook* may have the kind of luck with Karateka that I've had with Kenpoists...a disproportionate number of bozos. That's how the bell curve works.

I don't think most TMA floks will believe they need something like the WKKA program. I don't think most of them think they have a deficiency in this area. In grappling or weapons, maybe, but not here. That doesn't mean they're right...but in all likelihood they have in their art the tools for effective self-defense, whether they train it well or not.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 17, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I remember being at a martial arts summer camp for Modern Arnis in Lansing, Michigan one summer. A Kenpo brown belt was telling Mr. Hartman and me about how great Kenpo was. She explained that, unlike in other arts, every move in Kenpo was scientifically designed for effectiveness and every move was understood and important. We asked her to demonstrate a form. She did. Afterward I asked her why she made a certain move (left arm is out from a punch, right arm goes beneath it with one finger pointing up, others bent, and rests alongside the tricep). She said, "I don't know; we just do it." She had memorized the spiel but obviously hadn't thought about it. In fact, I don't think the contradictiuon even registered for her. I knew one interpretation of the move from a Kung Fu teacher...who didn't regard it as a fighting technique.
> 
> At my first tournament I fought a slightly higher-ranked Kenpoist who had been studying longer than I had. I beat him 3-0 on two roundhouse kicks and a reverse punch. Afterwards he came up to me...to explain that, according to Kenpo principles, I was doing the roundhouse kick incorrectly. I told him I was studying Karate, but he still insisted that the kick was wrong. I didn't point out that it was good enough to score on him twice, unanswered. I'll spare everyone the story of another Kenpo brown belt 'teaching' me how to hold an arnis stick at an arnis camp at which I was an instructor. She even used Ed Parker's name in explaining to me what I was doing wrong. Let's just say that I, uh, disagreed with her analysis.
> 
> ...


 
Well said, Sir.  thank you for sharing your perspective and experiences.


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## Ray (Jan 17, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> ...but it somehow seems to be a requirement for all the Kenpo nutcases to track me down and show me their stuff.


I very much look forward to meeting you, lol.  

I'm not really a nutcase, but I agree that there are a whole bunch of flakes that escaped from the cerial box. 

There really are some good kenpoists out there, I hope you get the chance to meet some, someday.


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## clfsean (Jan 17, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I already have.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook


 
Well not really. You gave moves right out of a kata & made a few comments about how they were being shown out of kata, but not as application.

Anyway... I'm done.


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## clfsean (Jan 17, 2006)

Saving the snipping but you said loads. Excellent!!!!


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## Monadnock (Jan 17, 2006)

I dunno. I was hesitant to click the link in the first post in fear of having to see the price tag for learning how a couple of Americans are going to suppliment 1000's of years of Eastern martial arts tradition - in a day.

The whole things presupposes that people primarily study the martial arts for self defense. Of course, that IS what's selling. Most of it is crap, but that's what's selling.

Off to dream of saving my life with Twirling Wings....


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## Seabrook (Jan 18, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I guess I am trying to keep the discussion centered more around the WKKA program, since that is the topic of the thread.


Good idea, brother.Jamie Seabrook


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## Seabrook (Jan 18, 2006)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Well not really. You gave moves right out of a kata & made a few comments about how they were being shown out of kata, but not as application.
> 
> Anyway... I'm done.


 
No worries about our "disagreement" buddy. You are a fellow martial arts practitioner, and I highly respect you for that that. 

God Bless you in your journey.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## arnisador (Jan 18, 2006)

Ray said:
			
		

> There really are some good kenpoists out there, I hope you get the chance to meet some, someday.



Well, Mr. Conatser was kind enough to treat me to lunch one day and that was a 180 degree experience from what I had so often seen before. I'd love to have another chance to pick his brain. I've also had the opportunity to talk Kenpo with Kenpoists such as *Bryson Ingram*, who is sensible and skilled. But yes, for some reason, I've hit more than my fair share of the ones with unusual opinions.

My favorite Kenpo story has got to be the Kenpo instructor and his assistant who gave an impromptu Kenpo demonstration for us after a BJJ seminar one day. The instructor demonstrated a technique where you grab the right side of the head with the left hand and strike the left side of the head with your right elbow. You then slide your elbow off the face to get a scrape. That way, he said, you've hit him 7 times: Once when the elbow lands, once as it leaves, plus five strikes from the five fingertips on the left hand that's slapping/holding the head. Well, I wasn't sure that counting the left hand made much sense at all compared to the elbow to the face, so I wasn't surprised when his student challenged him. He said, however: "No, that's 8 strikes. You have to count the center of the palm of the left hand too." But this isn't the worst of it. They stood there and argued the point with one another, ignoring the rest of us and repeated requests to just continue with the demo., until people finally gave up and left.

Analysis is good. But, you can have too much of a good thing.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 18, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> My favorite Kenpo story has got to be the Kenpo instructor and his assistant who gave an impromptu Kenpo demonstration for us after a BJJ seminar one day. The instructor demonstrated a technique where you grab the right side of the head with the left hand and strike the left side of the head with your right elbow. You then slide your elbow off the face to get a scrape. That way, he said, you've hit him 7 times: Once when the elbow lands, once as it leaves, plus five strikes from the five fingertips on the left hand that's slapping/holding the head. Well, I wasn't sure that counting the left hand made much sense at all compared to the elbow to the face, so I wasn't surprised when his student challenged him. He said, however: "No, that's 8 strikes. You have to count the center of the palm of the left hand too." But this isn't the worst of it. They stood there and argued the point with one another, ignoring the rest of us and repeated requests to just continue with the demo., until people finally gave up and left.
> 
> Analysis is good. But, you can have too much of a good thing.


 
That is some funny stuff.  I agree whole heartedly with your last statement.


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## Seabrook (Jan 18, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I've also had the opportunity to talk Kenpo with Kenpoists such as *Bryson Ingram*, who is sensible and skilled. But yes, for some reason, I've hit more than my fair share of the ones with unusual opinions.


 
Bryson came to train under me at my school at then end of 2005. Things didn't work out put that's ok. 

He now trains under Steve Stewart. How do you know him?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## arnisador (Jan 18, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> How do you know him?



He also does Modern Arnis. I see him at the WMAA Camps (but of course, he doesn't see me! ).


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## Kenpodoc (Jan 18, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> My favorite Kenpo story has got to be the Kenpo instructor and his assistant who gave an impromptu Kenpo demonstration for us after a BJJ seminar one day. The instructor demonstrated a technique where you grab the right side of the head with the left hand and strike the left side of the head with your right elbow. You then slide your elbow off the face to get a scrape. That way, he said, you've hit him 7 times: Once when the elbow lands, once as it leaves, plus five strikes from the five fingertips on the left hand that's slapping/holding the head. Well, I wasn't sure that counting the left hand made much sense at all compared to the elbow to the face, so I wasn't surprised when his student challenged him. He said, however: "No, that's 8 strikes. You have to count the center of the palm of the left hand too." But this isn't the worst of it. They stood there and argued the point with one another, ignoring the rest of us and repeated requests to just continue with the demo., until people finally gave up and left.
> 
> Analysis is good. But, you can have too much of a good thing.


Obviously a flawed analysis.  What about each of the Metacarpals contained within that palm and don't forget the added force of the Chi eminating from his elbow to his magic palm and the chi reflection back to his elbow.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Good story.

Jeff


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## Kenpo17 (Jan 14, 2009)

I think it is a great idea for the WKKA to be doing this for schools that would normally not teach Kenpo.  I don't think it is potential for disaster, because I think that no matter what type of Martial Arts you take, you should always keep an opened mind and be willing to learn new things.


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## hongkongfooey (Jan 15, 2009)

Kenpo17 said:


> I think it is a great idea for the WKKA to be doing this for schools that would normally not teach Kenpo. I don't think it is potential for disaster, because I think that no matter what type of Martial Arts you take, you should always keep an opened mind and be willing to learn new things.


 
:disgust: I agree that one should be open to learning new things, but this is not one of them. If an instructor of a school that teaches another style, wishes to add Kenpo to his or her repertoire, then that teacher should seek out instruction at a *qualified* Kenpo school. Video training for rank and or certification is a money making scheme and nothing more. If you want to use a video to supplement classroom time, then have at it, no problems there. But to try to learn the system by video and then teach the poorly learned material is pure McDojo behavior. The next thing you know there will be people teaching the system that don't have a clue as to what they're doing, and awarding black belts to people that are as equally clueless. Oh wait, that is already going on.  Kenpo is in bad shapeand this doesn't help.

:bs:


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## Hand Sword (Jan 16, 2009)

Well, there goes my idea! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Seriously, just reading the title baffles me. I mean aren't almost of the MA's about self defense? How is this concept new?


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## Kenpo17 (Jan 18, 2009)

hongkongfooey said:


> :disgust: I agree that one should be open to learning new things, but this is not one of them. If an instructor of a school that teaches another style, wishes to add Kenpo to his or her repertoire, then that teacher should seek out instruction at a *qualified* Kenpo school. Video training for rank and or certification is a money making scheme and nothing more. If you want to use a video to supplement classroom time, then have at it, no problems there. But to try to learn the system by video and then teach the poorly learned material is pure McDojo behavior. The next thing you know there will be people teaching the system that don't have a clue as to what they're doing, and awarding black belts to people that are as equally clueless. Oh wait, that is already going on. Kenpo is in bad shapeand this doesn't help.
> 
> :bs:


 
True, an instructor should be qualified to teach Kenpo, and I wasn't trying to say that an instructor should not be qualified, ofcourse he/she should be, I was saying that if the instructor feels comfortable enough and adapted enough to Kenpo, then there is no reason why he/she should not teach it.  Plus, what is a *qualified * instructor anyway, by definition.  Is there a definition?  I would like to find out.  Sorry if this sounds harsh, but someone needs to say it, not just to you, but in general.


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