# U.S based schools mostly useless?



## Mr. President (Mar 31, 2013)

This is Joe Rogan trashing Taekwondo, claiming that as much as he learned, he was unable to use his hands against kickboxers and got his *** kicked.

I obviously disagree and I know for a fact that in Korea, plenty of ITF schools have their students punching walls for hours to strengthen their hands, but maybe Rogan's point (without him realizing it) is that U.S schools of Taekwondo mostly do a very poor job of teaching students how to use their hands (both defensively and offensively) as extensively as they use their feet.

Do you think American Taekwondo standards are pretty low compared to Korean standards? Do too many schools crank out 3-4 year black belts that are clueless in self defense?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 31, 2013)

Mr. President said:


> This is Joe Rogan trashing Taekwondo, claiming that as much as he learned, he was unable to use his hands against kickboxers and got his *** kicked.
> 
> I obviously disagree and I know for a fact that in Korea, plenty of ITF schools have their students punching walls for hours to strengthen their hands, but maybe Rogan's point (without him realizing it) is that U.S schools of Taekwondo mostly do a very poor job of teaching students how to use their hands (both defensively and offensively) as extensively as they use their feet.
> 
> Do you think American Taekwondo standards are pretty low compared to Korean standards? Do too many schools crank out 3-4 year black belts that are clueless in self defense?


I'm going to say yes, but rest assure the other arts have caught up to the practice.
Sean


----------



## Kframe (Mar 31, 2013)

I agree with him on the punching, I see so many videos of TKD people in various places in fights, trying to punch and the form looks horrid.  I wonder if ill ever see a video of a TKD BB in a fight, that can not only kick, but punch good as well..


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Mar 31, 2013)

Mr. President said:


> This is Joe Rogan trashing Taekwondo, claiming that as much as he learned, he was unable to use his hands against kickboxers and got his *** kicked.
> 
> I obviously disagree and I know for a fact that in Korea, plenty of ITF schools have their students punching walls for hours to strengthen their hands, but maybe Rogan's point (without him realizing it) is that U.S schools of Taekwondo mostly do a very poor job of teaching students how to use their hands (both defensively and offensively) as extensively as they use their feet.
> 
> Do you think American Taekwondo standards are pretty low compared to Korean standards? Do too many schools crank out 3-4 year black belts that are clueless in self defense?



Korean TKD schools crank out BB's in about a year, and they are generally as clueless about self-defense as their stateside counterparts.  Don't mean to be harsh with that statement, but it is what it is.


----------



## StudentCarl (Mar 31, 2013)

Mr. President said:


> Do you think American Taekwondo standards are pretty low compared to Korean standards? Do too many schools crank out 3-4 year black belts that are clueless in self defense?



No and no. Your conclusion about Korean schools is a generalization and unclear about who your are referring to--the 6th grade black belts from the public school system or people in the pipeline for international competition. It's definitely oversimple to generalize about the US, as there are no greater requirements to be an instructor than having a good color printer, a place to teach, and gullible clients--there's a guy like that teaching across town. Yes, there are very high quality instructors and quality schools as well as junk. 

Clueless in self-defense? Oversimple question. Do many schools have a student who is diligent and does the best s/he can with the mental and physical abilities s/he has, but who lacks the situational awareness, street smarts, verbal skills, and aggression that would save them from your 'clueless' label? Yep, and they are better people because of the activity, skill building, discipline, and character development they gain from a good instructor. They are more likely to be successful in self-defense, but you should RUN AWAY FAST from anyone who promises you that they can train you to never look clueless in self-defense (real self-defense, not the monkey dance).


----------



## Mr. President (Mar 31, 2013)

StudentCarl said:


> the 6th grade black belts from the public school system or people in the pipeline for international competition.



That's another problem. Maybe a martial art can become too popular for its own good. TKD is already the most practiced martial art in the world, and that is due, among other things, to competition and the sporty side of the art. 

The same with BJJ and Muay Thai. MMA has popularized these methods to the extent that tons of new schools get their students competition ready, but not street ready.


----------



## StudentCarl (Mar 31, 2013)

Mr. President said:


> That's another problem. Maybe a martial art can become too popular for its own good. TKD is already the most practiced martial art in the world, and that is due, among other things, to competition and the sporty side of the art.
> 
> The same with BJJ and Muay Thai. MMA has popularized these methods to the extent that tons of new schools get their students competition ready, but not street ready.



This is a big shift from your OP, probably better as a new topic, but:

I disagree. How popular an art doesn't make it good or bad; that doesn't make sense.


----------



## Mr. President (Mar 31, 2013)

StudentCarl said:


> I disagree. How popular an art doesn't make it good or bad; that doesn't make sense.



Let's say person #1 tells person #2 a joke he just came up with. #2 likes the joke and tells it to person #3. Chances are, he's going to tell the joke the same way it was told to him.

But what happens when the joke becomes so popular, it's told to person #20,856 by person #20,855? I'm guessing it's not going to sound the same as it was when #1 came up with it. There are bound to be some deviations.

Maybe TKD became too popular to remain loyal to its original, defensive-use martial art form, and too many people are not getting what they're supposed to out of it?


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 31, 2013)

Mr. President said:


> Maybe TKD became too popular to remain loyal to its original, defensive-use martial art form, and too many people are not getting what they're supposed to out of it?



Tai chi chuan is largely studied as a health exercise by (frequently) elderly people.  Yet at its roots it is definitely a fighting art.  Which should it be?  Why can't it be both?

Really, this argument is the same as the sport vs. sd one or the child black belt one.  It boils down to people have differing opinions on what something should be or mean along with intolerance for opposing views.

And, it's a rather dull thing to argue about on a holiday.  I guess I should take that as a hint.  Happy Easter, everyone.  I'm going to take my family out for an outing.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 31, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> Tai chi chuan is largely studied as a health exercise by (frequently) elderly people. Yet at its roots it is definitely a fighting art. Which should it be? Why can't it be both?



If you train it correctly...it is.

As for Joe Rogan and TKD....obviously he never trained with Jae Hun Kim


----------



## blindsage (Mar 31, 2013)

Worldwide, Wing Chun and Taiji are more popular than TKD.  But that's why they both suck. :wink2:


----------



## ATC (Mar 31, 2013)

OK first of all Joe Rogan did not get really good at anything. In his mind maybe but he never won any major WTF (he said he wanted to go to the Olympics) anything. No US Open, No national team member, nothing. So his words are about him being really good is just talk. Just because he says it does not make it true.

2nd, if you are only focused on one thing (kicking only) then you are crazy. That is TKD or anything. Same is said for boxers. They have no kicks or ground game either so Boxing has some huge holes.

Take any art that has a sport that you practice for that has rules set that you practice for those rules but then go and participate in a sport that does not use the rules that you have practiced for and what do you get? Your **** KICK! Joe Rogan is for a better word an IDIOT! He thinks like a 10 year old. All I can do is shake my head. 

If Joe Rogan was not smart enough to look at the sport that he wanted to do and supplement his train before doing said sport then that is an idiot. There is now way possible for any TKD only person to participate in a boxing match without knowing how to box. Just like no boxer can join a TKD event without learning how to kick.

This is just stupid at best. How can you put down any art for not being able to use it in a sport that has rules set for said sport only. Just does not make sense.

Joe Rogan said it so it must be true. Wow!! I hope people are smarter than that.


----------



## K-man (Mar 31, 2013)

Mr. President said:


> I obviously disagree and I know for a fact that in Korea, plenty of ITF schools have their students punching walls for hours to strengthen their hands, but maybe Rogan's point (without him realizing it) is that U.S schools of Taekwondo mostly do a very poor job of teaching students how to use their hands (both defensively and offensively) as extensively as they use their feet.
> 
> Do you think American Taekwondo standards are pretty low compared to Korean standards? Do too many schools crank out 3-4 year black belts that are clueless in self defense?


The problem is not with TKD as such. The problem is that TKD has developed as a competition based sport and a very big and popular one at that.  You get young kids involved and start teaching a sport based system from day one. What do you think you are going to turn out, trained killers? You train for a sport that does not encourage punching. Of course these students are not going to be effective with their hands. Then they stand at a range that they can utilise their kicks and wonder why someone inside that range can kick their ****. It's a bit of a no brainer!

If TKD is trained as a reality based system it is as effective as any for self defence. If, as is the norm., it is trained for sport, it will be great for sport. The two rarely combine satisfactorily, and that is the same for all other martial arts, just TKD has a more restrictrictive rule set.   :asian:


----------



## ndnoakes (Mar 31, 2013)

Agreed, TKD globally is too sport orientated and as such very watered down for a lot of students, something that is frankly a disappointment to me daily...

The basis of TKD is sound, but effectiveness particularly with regards to self defence depends on the student and instructor, as with any art.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 31, 2013)

Mr. President said:


>


"Crawl on top of me, and meet your doom!"    Hilarious!


----------



## sopraisso (Mar 31, 2013)

Saying "sport TKD is useless against a kickboxer in a sporting environment" is like saying training soccer is useless to help one become good at baseball. What's the point?! They're just a different games!

What most people don't realize, though, is that sport TKD _is a game_, and sport MMA or kickboxing or sport muay thai... _all of them are games as well!_ And all have very little to do with self-defense.

Traditional TKD, if adequately practiced has a great arsenal when it comes to "self-defense fighting", but honestly, most martial art schools -- no matter the style -- are pretty clueless when it comes to the subject -- and most schools I know, fortunately, don't even claim to teach that stuff.

I'm only sorry because often I see in the news people hurting themselves or being killed because of believing they're learning to defend themselves in the streets, when they're actually learning a sport. Many times they become over-confident and even willingly to pick up fights around. In my country many young boys have already died because of that.


----------



## Gorilla (Apr 1, 2013)

Wow another TKD sucks thread very original....please go on theses are fun...ATC dead on about Joe Rogan....

BTW...what do Anthony Petis, Benson Henderson, Anderson Silva, Edson Barbosa, S Bonnar all have in common they are all UFC fighters and TKD BB..


----------



## K-man (Apr 1, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Wow another TKD sucks thread very original....please go on theses are fun...ATC dead on about Joe Rogan....
> 
> BTW...what do Anthony Petis, Benson Henderson, Anderson Silva, Edson Barbosa, S Bonnar all have in common they are all UFC fighters and TKD BB..


The other thing they all have in common is that they have all cross trained and not relied on their primary skill .. not that others haven't had to do the same thing.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Apr 1, 2013)

K-man said:


> The other thing they all have in common is that they have all cross trained and not relied on their primary skill .. not that others haven't had to do the same thing.


Exactly, Petis for instance was boxing from a young age, Henderson has half a dozen arts in his arsenal, even Edson is a very established muay thai fighter etc. The same can be said of other mma/ufc guys but generally if you are a muay thai guy (for instance) then muay thai is your stand up game and then you cross train in a ground game. I doubt there would be many (if any) successful fighters who use tkd exclusively as their stand up game, because of lack of hand ability Id imagine. Thats why muay thai guys stll look, to a large degree, like a muay thai guy when they fight in mma, whereas tkd guys alter their game so much to suit the mma ruleset that they dont typicaly look like a tkd guy when they fight.


----------



## Gorilla (Apr 1, 2013)

90 % of Henderson's kicks in the Edgar fight were TKD...some much so the above mentioned Joe Rogan mentioned it a Half a dozen times during the fight.  He was using a side stance and a side kick for heavens sake.  Barbosa's most famous kick is a spinning heal..  90% of Pettis's kicking game is TKD...it is clear when. You watch these guys fight they are TKD BLACKBELTS


It is also clear that they are well rounded and have great ground games and are very good at MT, wrestling and BJJ etc...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 1, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Wow another TKD sucks thread very original....


And in the TKD section of course.


----------



## Sukerkin (Apr 1, 2013)

According to the OP what it is actually supposed to be about is the relatively low value 'product' of American school belt factories rather than any inherent weakness of TKD itself.

If it descends into outright style bashing flame wars then it will be dealt with through the official channels - meantime I suggest that people be a little less 'precious' and defensive.  It's just a martial art, people, no need to lose your sanity or your temper over what is, in the end, a hobby.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Mentor


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 1, 2013)

K-man said:


> The other thing they all have in common is that they have all cross trained and not relied on their primary skill .. not that others haven't had to do the same thing.


I think that it is safe to say that if one does not cross train, one will not be successful in MMA, regardless of what the core style is.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 1, 2013)

Mr. President said:


> This is Joe Rogan trashing Taekwondo, claiming that as much as he learned, he was unable to use his hands against kickboxers and got his *** kicked.


I don't kickbox, but I assume that kickboxers use their hands differently than they do in WTF taekwondo tournaments.  Given that WTF rules emphasize kicks to the near exclusion of the hands, and given that Joe (I've never heard of him; is he related to Seth?) indicates that he was training specifically for WTF tournament fighting (he expressed a desire to go to the Olympics in taekwondo), I suspect that his competitive hand skills were fairly weak.  But a guy who plays in one fight sport not doing well fighting in a different fight sport doesn't equate to real world self defense.  



Mr. President said:


> I obviously disagree and I know for a fact that in Korea, plenty of ITF schools have their students punching walls for hours to strengthen their hands, but maybe Rogan's point (without him realizing it) is that U.S schools of Taekwondo mostly do a very poor job of teaching students how to use their hands (both defensively and offensively) as extensively as they use their feet.


If he didn't realize it then it wasn't his point.  I also disagree that US TKD schools do a poor job of teaching you to use your hands.  They don't teach you to use your hands the same way that a boxing gym does, which makes sense, as TKD isn't boxing.  Also, a high level competitor in a handsy fight sport trains specifically for his sport.  If you haven't been training for his sport and just step in, don't expect to outshine him.



Mr. President said:


> Do you think American Taekwondo standards are pretty low compared to Korean standards? Do too many schools crank out 3-4 year black belts that are clueless in self defense?


I can only say that in Korea, the average time to black belt is one year based on what people who train in Korea say.  It represents completion of the most basic level and is not viewed as a black belt is here.  

As to whether the average three to four year practitioner in Korea is clueless about self defense I wouldn't know.  Unless a poster has trained in Korea, they probably shouldn't answer.


----------



## sopraisso (Apr 1, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> According to the OP what it is actually supposed to be about is the relatively low value 'product' of American school belt factories rather than any inherent weakness of TKD itself.
> 
> If it descends into outright style bashing flame wars then it will be dealt with through the official channels - meantime I suggest that people be a little less 'precious' and defensive.  It's just a martial art, people, no need to lose your sanity or your temper over what is, in the end, a hobby.
> 
> ...



What do you mean by _hobby_?!?! To me the main purpose of TKD is to _flip out and kill people_, and obviously, I train with only those intents in mind!


----------



## sopraisso (Apr 1, 2013)

I pretty much agree that TKD's _traditional_ hand/arm techniques are not best fit for competition settings. They're just too conservative for that, because they were designed not to KO an opponent in a controlled (and relatively safe) environment, but instead to make you overcome the agression and survive (fleeing, for example!). From my understanding, most (if not all) differences in hand strategies between _traditional_ TKD and, say, boxing, are due to the difference in intent/context. Boxing cares so much more with power generation, for example, even to a point of sacrificing a little grip from the feet on the ground (although I know not all TKD styles support the opposing, deep _rooted_ stances -- but I believe it was like that at least in the old kwan era, and is still like that in various traditional schools), or to chamber punches from the upper side of the body instead of from the hip, all in order to build more power, but leaving the body a little more open or sacrificing stability.

Think of the heel of the boxer's back foot going off the floor when he throws a cross: would he be so confident to punch like that if the floor was wet or with objects around (pebbles, grass, cracks, broken glass), or with other agressors ready to make him lose his balance? The same goes for the "loading/chambering" motion (yes, because the stronger punches in boxing do have a chamber, a "loading" to build more power, normally positioning the arm on the side of the upper body -- that takes greater advantadge of the muscles of the back): would it be such a great idea to punch like that if another attacker can grab your arm from the back, or simply due to the fact that your punching arm for a second goes too far from the center of your body, leaving you more open when it's a life-or-death situation?

As I said, in my opinion _traditional_ TKD does have too conservative hand/arm strategies, that were designed to protect you in real self-defense. _Falling is more likely to happen, and if it does, it is more dangerous_. Knocking the opponent out is not as important as just being able to stun him and run away. Basically, for a different scenario, you need different strategies, and _traditional_ TKD hand/arm techniques just weren't designed to the sport/MMA/kickboxing scenario. By the way, has anyone ever heard of sport kickboxers learning attacks to the eyes, throat or groin? These targets are widely considered good ones in self-defense. How would a kickboxer go against a TKD fighter who "fights dirty", with techniques learned just in TKD (at least in higher levels)? I would say: "my rules, I win; your rules, you win"!

Finally, a real problem we often see is TKD instructors defending traditional strategies to be used in modern sport environments. I believe that just won't work, because, as I said, those strategies were made to a different context. So I don't like "hands down guard", but I'm all for it if it works better in sport/WTF TKD, as I'm all for bouncing if it works as well and so on (although I understand very little of those things ). Equally, sport strategies to be used in self-defense scenarios is certainly a misguided idea.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 1, 2013)

sopraisso said:


> I pretty much agree that TKD's _traditional_ hand/arm techniques are not best fit for competition settings. They're just too conservative for that, because they were designed not to KO an opponent in a controlled (and relatively safe) environment, but instead to make you overcome the agression and survive (fleeing, for example!). From my understanding, most (if not all) differences in hand strategies between _traditional_ TKD and, say, boxing, are due to the difference in intent/context. Boxing cares so much more with power generation, for example, even to a point of sacrificing a little grip from the feet on the ground (although I know not all TKD styles support the opposing, deep _rooted_ stances -- but I believe it was like that at least in the old kwan era, and is still like that in various traditional schools), or to chamber punches from the upper side of the body instead of from the hip, all in order to build more power, but leaving the body a little more open or sacrificing stability.


Kwan era taekwondo looked pretty much like Shotokan.  In fact, they were using the same forms at that time as well so far as I know.  

I cannot speak for Chang Hon taekwondo, and I haven't practiced Jhoon Rhee taekwondo since I was a child, but Kukki taekwondo favors a more upright and mobile posture.  Feet are generally no wider than shoulder width apart.  Even a forward inflection stance (ap kubi) is not particularly low or long, and certainly doesn't resemble a deep lunge like you'd see in foil.

As for whether or not taekwondo's traditonal hand/arm techniques are suited to competition settings, it depends on the setting in question.  They're essentially the same fare you see in Shotokan, so they would be fine in karate style tournaments, though a competitor used to WTF rules would likely have to make a lot of adjustment in training and strategy.


----------



## Gorilla (Apr 1, 2013)

Your guard is different...your set ups are different...your footwork is different...in karate and Tkd comps...tech 's from each work...but you have to be able to adapt to each....the sports are quite different


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 2, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Your guard is different...your set ups are different...your footwork is different...in karate and Tkd comps...tech 's from each work...but you have to be able to adapt to each....the sports are quite different



Definitely.  As I said, a competitor used to WTF rules would likely have to make a lot of adjustment in training and strategy.  Particularly with regards to hand usage.  The rules are so different that it really is starting a brand new sport.  The fact that the techniques carry over is a nice bonus, but a longtime WTF competitor would likely have no advantage or be at a disadvantage against a high colored belt karateka. 

Of course the same is true in reverse; a high colored belt Kukki taekwondoin would have an advantage over a longtime karateka who just started WTF tournaments.


----------



## Gorilla (Apr 2, 2013)

One of my sons TKD trainers came to watch him in the NKF Karate US Open at the Paris Hotel in Las Vegas.  It was the first time he had seen one of these tournaments live.  He was amazed at how differently he fought in Karate vs TKD.

He also had to witness on of the bigger adjustments you have to make... Charlie KO'd a kid in the first round of the tournament on Sunday with a high round house the kid ran into...part of the sport...In karate you get DQ'd for a KO!

All was not lost he won a bronze medal in JR International cup on Friday!


----------



## IcemanSK (Apr 2, 2013)

I'd trained in TKD a dozen years before training in "full contact rules" kickboxing (think PKA Karate on ESPN in the 80's). The gym where I trained produced several world champion boxers & kickboxers. It wasn't just TKD guys who realized they needed to become better boxers that came to train. Many Kyokoshin guys, and other folks from striking Arts were there as well. Rogan would be a fool not to recognize his need for boxing skills when fighting in a kickboxing ring. 

As has been noted, Rogan touts the TKD training and kicks of many UFC fighters. In this video, (language not sufficient for work!!!) Rogan teaches Georges St. Pierre how to correctly throw a dwi chagi (Spinning back kick) like any good TKDoan would. Georges even says on the video, "I've been throwing it wrong all these years!"

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W3N5Rnx37O0

To be fair to Rogan, that video of him bashing TKD was several years old. At that point, he had just discoveered BJJ & he was seeing things from a very new perspective. At that time, he was willing to set his old training behind & go full force into the new. Time has certainly changed his perspective & he's come back to a more positive view of Taekwondo.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Apr 2, 2013)

Mr. President said:


> This is Joe Rogan trashing Taekwondo, claiming that as much as he learned, he was unable to use his hands against kickboxers and got his *** kicked.
> .....................
> 
> Do you think American Taekwondo standards are pretty low compared to Korean standards? Do too many schools crank out 3-4 year black belts that are clueless in self defense?


  How the Heck did you morph what Rogan said about WTF / Olympic style sparring vis a vis use of the hands for kickboxing, MMA and SD into something to do with American TKD standards?


----------



## Gorilla (Apr 2, 2013)

Great post!!!!   What I wanted to say!!!! Hit the nail on the head!!!  He has absolutely changed his rhetoric about TKD...He has been more positive about it as of late...



IcemanSK said:


> I'd trained in TKD a dozen years before training in "full contact rules" kickboxing (think PKA Karate on ESPN in the 80's). The gym where I trained produced several world champion boxers & kickboxers. It wasn't just TKD guys who realized they needed to become better boxers that came to train. Many Kyokoshin guys, and other folks from striking Arts were there as well. Rogan would be a fool not to recognize his need for boxing skills when fighting in a kickboxing ring.
> 
> As has been noted, Rogan touts the TKD training and kicks of many UFC fighters. In this video, (language not sufficient for work!!!) Rogan teaches Georges St. Pierre how to correctly throw a dwi chagi (Spinning back kick) like any good TKDoan would. Georges even says on the video, "I've been throwing it wrong all these years!"
> 
> ...


----------



## sopraisso (Apr 2, 2013)

IcemanSK said:


> I'd trained in TKD a dozen years before training in "full contact rules" kickboxing (think PKA Karate on ESPN in the 80's). The gym where I trained produced several world champion boxers & kickboxers. It wasn't just TKD guys who realized they needed to become better boxers that came to train. Many Kyokoshin guys, and other folks from striking Arts were there as well. Rogan would be a fool not to recognize his need for boxing skills when fighting in a kickboxing ring.
> 
> As has been noted, Rogan touts the TKD training and kicks of many UFC fighters. In this video, (language not sufficient for work!!!) Rogan teaches Georges St. Pierre how to correctly throw a dwi chagi (Spinning back kick) like any good TKDoan would. Georges even says on the video, "I've been throwing it wrong all these years!"
> 
> ...



Thanks for the vid! I think it will be a good motivational to the fellows in my school.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Apr 3, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Great post!!!!   What I wanted to say!!!! Hit the nail on the head!!!  He has absolutely changed his rhetoric about TKD...He has been more positive about it as of late...



One of his curent comments has been about the prior underutilization and increasing use of the Back kick / reverse side kick, and how he expects to see more of it.


----------



## Gorilla (Apr 3, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> One of his curent comments has been about the prior underutilization and increasing use of the Back kick / reverse side kick, and how he expects to see more of it.



Tkd techs are being used more and more in MMA...TKD has a lot to add...it mixes well with MT and boxing...


----------



## ETinCYQX (Apr 6, 2013)

I'm not a huge Rogan fan but that has more to do with the fact that I think he's the aging jock bully that everyone hated in high school. He has some ok points as far as TKD and MMA goes, more so lately. 

I lost a lot of respect for Joe after his "How fat can a referee be" crack.


----------



## Drasken (Apr 7, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Tkd techs are being used more and more in MMA...TKD has a lot to add...it mixes well with MT and boxing...



I actually read an article, which I'm trying to find once again, about how similar TKD and MT kicks really  are. The master who was interviewed also pointed out the fundamental ways they are different, but he ( a MT guy ) trained with a lot of TKD practitioners and incorperates a lot of TKD kicks into his own methods.
Was a very interesting read.

I practice a little MT off and on with my friend and his instructor, and have a fascination with TKD kicks because of the destructive power of the techniques.


----------



## Gorilla (Apr 7, 2013)

Drasken...that is what I have found a lot of people on this BBS put down sport TKD and some TKD in general calling our kicks flicky and lacking power but when we work with serious people in other arts they are fascinated and impressed with Tkd kicks.  Just like GSP in the video!


----------



## TKDTony2179 (Jun 5, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I agree with him on the punching, I see so many videos of TKD people in various places in fights, trying to punch and the form looks horrid. I wonder if ill ever see a video of a TKD BB in a fight, that can not only kick, but punch good as well..



http://www.youtube.com/user/taekwondoversus

These are some guys that went full contact and can punch and kick well.


----------



## Gorilla (Jun 6, 2013)

One Hell of a scrap!!!!!:jediduel:


----------



## Rumy73 (Jun 9, 2013)

Mr. President said:


> This is Joe Rogan trashing Taekwondo, claiming that as much as he learned, he was unable to use his hands against kickboxers and got his *** kicked.
> 
> I obviously disagree and I know for a fact that in Korea, plenty of ITF schools have their students punching walls for hours to strengthen their hands, but maybe Rogan's point (without him realizing it) is that U.S schools of Taekwondo mostly do a very poor job of teaching students how to use their hands (both defensively and offensively) as extensively as they use their feet.
> 
> Do you think American Taekwondo standards are pretty low compared to Korean standards? Do too many schools crank out 3-4 year black belts that are clueless in self defense?



In korea, a black can be had in a year.


----------



## Rumy73 (Jun 9, 2013)

Mr. President said:


> This is Joe Rogan trashing Taekwondo, claiming that as much as he learned, he was unable to use his hands against kickboxers and got his *** kicked.
> 
> I obviously disagree and I know for a fact that in Korea, plenty of ITF schools have their students punching walls for hours to strengthen their hands, but maybe Rogan's point (without him realizing it) is that U.S schools of Taekwondo mostly do a very poor job of teaching students how to use their hands (both defensively and offensively) as extensively as they use their feet.
> 
> Do you think American Taekwondo standards are pretty low compared to Korean standards? Do too many schools crank out 3-4 year black belts that are clueless in self defense?



Tkd has problems, limitations and strengths. This is true of anything, especially for things made for mass consumption. Tkd can be a solid basis for self defense, mma or anything else with tweaking and personal initiative to enhance it. What works against a tkd player may fail against a different style. To overcome these blind spots, broad exposure is key if one wants to fight in a open style match. And to a certain extent, this applies to sd situations. Watch out for tunnel vision, it is a great enemy.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Jun 9, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Drasken...that is what I have found a lot of people on this BBS put down sport TKD and some TKD in general calling our kicks flicky and lacking power...



I don't think it is a matter of putting sport TKD down, rather it is addressing it for what it actually is and does.  Some take offense to this though.  Sport TKD is great if that is what you're after.  Great for sport, conditioning and a hobby.  And although the window dressing is there (or what is perceived by the masses to be window dressing), it isn't a martial art when trained for with this methodology.  And again, that's okay if sport training methodology is what a person is after.  It shouldn't be confused with TKD that is trained from an art perspective and training methodology.  Two different animals.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Jun 9, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> In korea, a black can be had in a year.



Correct.  Usually a child.  As discussed in another thread/section, a child of 9 in Korea can be a 3rd Dan in Hapkido...if they have mommy and daddy pay the $500 testing fee.  

Unfortunately it seems that these youth quickly abandon TKD soon after other interests are discovered and/or mandated.  The quick rise to BB is merely to prop up the numbers of the KKW making it appear to be something that it isn't.


----------



## Master Dan (Jun 9, 2013)

Mr. President said:


> Let's say person #1 tells person #2 a joke he just came up with. #2 likes the joke and tells it to person #3. Chances are, he's going to tell the joke the same way it was told to him.
> 
> But what happens when the joke becomes so popular, it's told to person #20,856 by person #20,855? I'm guessing it's not going to sound the same as it was when #1 came up with it. There are bound to be some deviations.
> 
> Maybe TKD became too popular to remain loyal to its original, defensive-use martial art form, and too many people are not getting what they're supposed to out of it?



I think the word Popular could be replaced with extremecommercialization and in the replication process just like in many chemicalsolutions dilution or even complete lack of following the original formula byothers licensed to make the product water it down to make a quick buck.Westernization of what was to be an Eastern Art form would also be at fault butthat is part and parcel to commercialization. I blame the Olympics for thewatering down of what was a much better full contact fighting system usinghands with feet as being just as important before such and emphasis on purelyOlympic sport rule and worshiping points over knock out. 

If this was not so then why were so many KMA pioneers against unified TKD andKKW in the beginning? because they feared the watering down on their personalart form. My own Supreme GM stated with disgust in 2002 of the lack of usinghands in TKD but he is jointly to blame with all others in promoting so much ofthe Olympic commercialization of TKD and in the end I think he found that theOlympics and the NGB was not the friend to him or the art he had hoped for? TheOlympics in China was historical because for the first time in history morepeople were practicing TKD in China than Wu Shoo Gung Fu but that was due toparticipation in the colleges and a sport format they could participate in. 

I find the original comment from the OP to be baiting and uneducated.Generalizations of an entire area or art have no value. All that matters is thestudent who wants self defense should find someone who can teach that and thosewho have aspirations to reach some goal in sport competition should find thatperson and older people who need to train in a more holistic format that is ageappropriate should find that instructor. The finest instructors in the worldare everywhere in every state and country it is your Karma to find them bystudy and inspiration.


----------



## Rumy73 (Jun 9, 2013)

Master Dan said:


> I think the word Popular could be replaced with extremecommercialization and in the replication process just like in many chemicalsolutions dilution or even complete lack of following the original formula byothers licensed to make the product water it down to make a quick buck.Westernization of what was to be an Eastern Art form would also be at fault butthat is part and parcel to commercialization. I blame the Olympics for thewatering down of what was a much better full contact fighting system usinghands with feet as being just as important before such and emphasis on purelyOlympic sport rule and worshiping points over knock out.
> 
> If this was not so then why were so many KMA pioneers against unified TKD andKKW in the beginning? because they feared the watering down on their personalart form. My own Supreme GM stated with disgust in 2002 of the lack of usinghands in TKD but he is jointly to blame with all others in promoting so much ofthe Olympic commercialization of TKD and in the end I think he found that theOlympics and the NGB was not the friend to him or the art he had hoped for? TheOlympics in China was historical because for the first time in history morepeople were practicing TKD in China than Wu Shoo Gung Fu but that was due toparticipation in the colleges and a sport format they could participate in.
> 
> I find the original comment from the OP to be baiting and uneducated.Generalizations of an entire area or art have no value. All that matters is thestudent who wants self defense should find someone who can teach that and thosewho have aspirations to reach some goal in sport competition should find thatperson and older people who need to train in a more holistic format that is ageappropriate should find that instructor. The finest instructors in the worldare everywhere in every state and country it is your Karma to find them bystudy and inspiration.



I agree. I said the same thing. Growth is contingent on the student's desire for it.


----------



## Napitenkah (Jul 2, 2013)

I've seen the video before.
Joe Rogan is a spokeperson for the UFC, and that is relevant when you consider the motives for what he is talking about. It is not just because he feels like sharing his honest opinion about it.
Joe Rogan was in WTF kukkiwon style Taekwondo, where they don't punch at all.
I have a video of me in the black belt test, doing the same.
But I can adapt quick. If I spar, and they say, just punch to the torso, then I do.
Just do movements from a certain form, then I do. It helps students became more adaptable and ready to use more.
He was in it for atleast 10 years, was an instructor, and I would hear him talk about it, as it became painfully clear, that unless he was deliberately omitting things, for the sake of the UFC propaganda, he doesn't know a lot about Taekwondo.
He didn't prepare properly for the switch to kickboxing, where you box and kick, and instead of apparently recognizing that, he blames Taekwondo.
He didn't seem to even know about ITF.
The sparring with nothing but kicks, is good to become proficient at kicks.


----------



## Master Dan (Jul 3, 2013)

What alarms me more is the generation gap of knowlege and respect that commercialization has caused to the traditional art form and the total lack of value by younger generations for pioneers and the prominent first students of those pioneers. Myself and many of my friends who are all senior masters or GM just see no value in teaching the public?


----------



## Napitenkah (Jul 3, 2013)

The martial art itself, nothing can be done to it. It is still waiting there for someone to express it as fully as they can, or in whatever way their awareness allows.
Olympic style TKD, is just something people talk about, like what goes on in the pentagon.
What happens is what people do, and I am not confused about the world I Iive in.
People can seem to take a martial art and use it any way they wish, but it does not harm the martial art, the Martial art is like universal energy, it does whatever you put into it, but it cannot be violated of itself.
If everyone was of the same awareness, no one would have anything to complain about.
Because of awareness, people would get bored of that, real quick.


----------



## miguksaram (Jul 3, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> Joe Rogan was in WTF kukkiwon style Taekwondo, where they don't punch at all.


Are you serious about this statement?  Where have your learned your TKD?


----------



## Cyriacus (Jul 3, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> The martial art itself, nothing can be done to it. It is still waiting there for someone to express it as fully as they can, or in whatever way their awareness allows.
> Olympic style TKD, is just something people talk about, like what goes on in the pentagon.
> What happens is what people do, and I am not confused about the world I Iive in.
> People can seem to take a martial art and use it any way they wish, but it does not harm the martial art, the Martial art is like universal energy, it does whatever you put into it, but it cannot be violated of itself.
> ...



Imma blow your mind:

Martial Arts are totally meaningless, the universe doesnt care about them, they have no identity, they mean nothing, and they are nothing more than systemized ways of making money, achieving fitness, building confidence, refining the gentle art of murder, self protection, or whatever its been themed around for the system in question. 

They cant be violated because it doesnt exist outside of the constructs people build for them. What you do with them doesnt affect them because their identity is imaginary. Martial Arts only have any value or significance to the beholder. And the beholder might not care. Or they might. Who knows!


----------



## Napitenkah (Jul 4, 2013)

miguksaram said:


> Are you serious about this statement?  Where have your learned your TKD?



When they spar in competition, of course, which should have been obvious. It is the only time that you just kick.
Which is what Joe Rogan was talking about when he switched to Kickboxing.

In class I learned a plethora of strikes.
Punches, knife hand strikes, but when we sparred, we were told not to use them.


----------



## Napitenkah (Jul 4, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Imma blow your mind:
> 
> Martial Arts are totally meaningless, the universe doesnt care about them, they have no identity, they mean nothing, and they are nothing more than systemized ways of making money, achieving fitness, building confidence, refining the gentle art of murder, self protection, or whatever its been themed around for the system in question.
> 
> They cant be violated because it doesnt exist outside of the constructs people build for them. What you do with them doesnt affect them because their identity is imaginary. Martial Arts only have any value or significance to the beholder. And the beholder might not care. Or they might. Who knows!



What I said. LOL


----------



## Cyriacus (Jul 4, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> What I said. LOL



...it really isnt.
"but it does not harm the martial art, *the Martial art is like universal  energy*, it does whatever you put into it, _*but it cannot be violated of  itself*_."


----------



## Napitenkah (Jul 4, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> ...it really isnt.



That is what the LOL indicated. Isn't.


----------



## Cyriacus (Jul 4, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> That is what the LOL indicated. Isn't.



Well, if your intention was to contradict yourself, thats fine i guess.


----------

