# Parker or Lee



## Kenpobuff

Did anyone see the movie on AMC last night I think it was called "Bruce Lee, A Warriors Journey".  I'm sure it has been aired before but it's the first time I really watched it with Kenpo eyes.  I think it is on this afternoon too.

During one of the early interviews they filmed, titled curiously "The Journey", of Mr. Lee, I think they said it took place in circa 1965.  He described his new art (JKD) as the first comprehensive martial art using the principles of economy of motion, low kicks, etc.  He spoke of many of the same concepts Mr. Parker spoke of and EPAK relies on.  I'm not sure when it was produced but it made mention only once of Kenpo's influence and that was when he had Mr. Insanto appear in one of his movies because of his Kenpo skills, among others.  Obviously this movie was made with bias and I realize that.  They made it sound like Mr. Norris and Mr. Wallace were Bruce's student's and what they learned only came from him.  They also made a point alluding to Mr. Lee was the only one teaching movie celebrities at that time.

My question of the elders on this forum that may have been around back then is what came first "the Parker or the Lee"?  Or maybe they collaborated on many things in those early years and Mr. Lee took credit for the concepts Mr. Parker enlightened him on.

On another forum, I don't like to visit very often, the relationship between these two men was mentioned but not in the context of the dynamics of how or when their two styles affected the martial arts world as they were being brought to the mainstream at the same time.

I would be very interested in the history.  I don't remember Mr. Tracy or anyone else hitting this side of the history of Kenpo.


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## parkerkarate

Well Bruce Lee came to the Long Beach Internationals to show his new style of Jeet Kun Do (I think I spelt it right), or JKD. So I would have to say that Mr. Parker came first.


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## Doc

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> Well Bruce Lee came to the Long Beach Internationals to show his new style of Jeet Kun Do (I think I spelt it right), or JKD. So I would have to say that Mr. Parker came first.


After about 2 years of Wing Chun training, Bruce came to this country to enroll in college at the age of 19 and became his own instructor. Although a quick study and a gifted athlete, Lee was not very knowledgeable in the arts.

By this time Parker had been in the military, finished college, opened 2 schools, was married with three kids, wrote and published 2 martial arts books, and had many students and was continuing to study with significant Chinese Masters of the day.


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## kenpoworks

It's all up there Doc, you just carry them around with you in between the ears....... answers.
Rich


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## bushi jon

If I am not mistaken it was Ed Parker that gave BL his irst big break in the Movies. I remember Ep had a production company at the time and he turned Bl over to the producers of the Green Hornet and several smaller roles.I could be wrong though


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## donald

It is very well documented that Parker, and Lee shared ideas. Then again those ideas have been around in one form or another for many years. Therfore I don't think that anyone person can lay claim to them as their own.


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## OC Kid

Mr Parker also recieved his training in Hawaii and moved to the LA area where he opened up his school (If Im not mistaken Doc Please help me if Im mistaken) .
Bruce Lee on the other trained in Hong Kong and moved to Seattle. Where he opened his school up. it wasnt from what I read after Bruce got into a fight with a Japanese karate instructor ( Yoshi Nakachi according to one of Dan Innosantos orginal students I know, but other than that it was a no name guy)  that he started to experiment and change his way studying other arts.
When Bruce moved to Calif no doubt he had some inter actions with Mr. Parker.

But Kempo as was being taught by Mr Parker at that time ( again Doc Please help me with this) according to some old movies of Mr Parker that Mr. White had and showed at his studio one day... Kempo looked like a hard style Karate, not as hard as a trad japanese karate by no means but alot harder than it is today.
kempo has evolved alot since then.


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## Doc

donald said:
			
		

> It is very well documented that Parker, and Lee shared ideas. Then again those ideas have been around in one form or another for many years. Therfore I don't think that anyone person can lay claim to them as their own.


Documented? Where? If you mean they talked, then you are correct. If you mean Parker took some of Bruce's ideas and implimented them than you would be quite incorrect. Bruce was a sharp kid and loved to hang out and shoot the breeze about the arts. He was a regular here in Southern California once he relocated, and it wasn't hard to bump into him at a tourny or event before Parker got him the Hornet gig. Bruce would philosophize with anyone and everyone, but it was he who sought out Ed Parker, as much as he would seek out anyone he thought could add to his skill and knowledge.

Bruce was beginning to learn the arts and step outside of the box of his limited Wing Chun experience. When he demonstrated at the IKC, he did mostly Wing Chun. Alot of sensitivity, trapping, blocking drills, and some even done blindfolded to illustrate his point.

You must remember Bruce pissed off the traditional Chinese martial arts community, and all of his "teachers" were non Chinese after he left Yip Man at the age of 19. Parker however, was embraced by and had been deep into the Chinese arts for years before he met Bruce Lee with legitimate and acknowledged masters like Ark Yuey Wong, Humea Lefiti, Lao Bun, Jimmy Woo, etc. Parker has published one book on "Kenpo Karate" and another on the Chinese Arts over 3 years before he even met Lee while Lee had opened up his own kwoon and began teaching full time after he dropped out of college.

Parker explained the importance of structure to Bruce for the purposes of teaching. In truth, Bruce wasn't interested in teaching but in learning himself. This is why JKD is not a style but simply a training concept. A philosophy of personal self expression and exploration. Parker felt that was fine and encouraged it, but also felt any exploration had to start from a firm base of structured information. 

I remember Bruce dismissed forms training, and Parker reminded him he did forms in Wing Chun. "The reason you can dismiss some of the forms ideas, is because you did them first." Parker told him. The only reason Lee had students was to reach his goal of being a "movie star," pay the bills, have training partners, and learn from his real students. Even Bruce's most famous student Danny Inosanto, (a Parker black belt) taught Bruce much more than the other way around. 

Bruce philosophized with Parker, while Wally Jay began to teach him jiu-jitsu, Sea Oh Choi was teaching him how to kick, and Gene LeBell was teaching him to grapple as his primary stuntman on the Hornet series. 

Bruce was a sponge and a tremendously gifted athlete at 5'6', but he was not a great teacher, nor was he trying to be. What Bruce was, was a philosopher on a mission to be a movie star and he was using his martial arts to that end. Oddly enough Bruce really wanted to be taken seriously as an actor. He saw himself as the next "Steve McQueen." But Bruce had a kinda "whiney nasal" voice and thick accent that Hollywood would never use. Even his first hit movies from Hong Kong, "Big Boss, and Fist of Fury" when dubbed to English didn't use Bruce's real voice.

No, Bruce was a sharp kid who took what he could from those around him who willingly helpped him, but Bruce wasn't this pillar of martial arts knowledge and information. Just a kid with a lot of talent who didn't even graduate from college.


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## Doc

OC Kid said:
			
		

> Mr Parker also recieved his training in Hawaii and moved to the LA area where he opened up his school (If Im not mistaken Doc Please help me if Im mistaken) .


You are correct sir. Specifically 2 schools in Pasadena.


> But Kempo as was being taught by Mr Parker at that time ( again Doc Please help me with this)


It was during this time period Mr. Parker was deep into his "Chinese Kenpo" phase.


> according to some old movies of Mr Parker that Mr. White had and showed at his studio one day... Kempo looked like a hard style Karate, not as hard as a trad japanese karate by no means but alot harder than it is today.
> kempo has evolved alot since then.


You are correct sir. The primary influence in the islands on Chow and others was from the Okinawa / Japanese branch of the arts. What was callled "Kenpo Karate" by Chow was in many ways essentially "Okinwan kempo" or what became "Okinawa Te" with some Chinese influence from Chow.

Although basically linear in many aspects, the circular and multiple strike aspects of the Chinese Arts was definitely present, along with a healthy dose of the locks, holds, and mat work of Henry Okazaki's DanZan Ryu Jiu-Jitsu. The early days of "Kenpo Karate" on the mainland as taught by Parker saw students learning breakfalls as beginners just like in traditional jiu-jitsu. Most techniques done in those days ended with students being thrown or knocked to the floor with the appropriate breakfall exercise as part of the technique.

Parker left this phase quickly and moved to the "Chinese Kenpo" (dropping the word karate) when he began training with Chinese Masters. In the sixties he went "commercial" and created his motion based concept of "Kenpo Karate, going back to the original name recognizing he needed the word "Karate" to sale the product. This comercial diversion is the dominant Parker vehicle today, in part, because it is the least disciplined. Parker however continued to develop and Americanized his Chinese Kenpo as his personal art while promoting motion kenpo to sale.


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## Doc

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> It's all up there Doc, you just carry them around with you in between the ears....... answers.
> Rich



I just can't seem to stop the voices Mate. Man have I got some stuff for you in May. Guaranteed to make you say, "s**t the bed."


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## donald

I thought documented, meant uhhh, documented. Like in books,magazines, uuhhh, etc..


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## Doc

donald said:
			
		

> I thought documented, meant uhhh, documented. Like in books,magazines, uuhhh, etc..



Well I can understand the confusion. Bruce Lee was great for the business of the martial arts, (and still is) and everyone made a ton of money. Magazines always promote what initiates sales. If you go by the mags, Lee taught everybody, or at the very least, gave them some pointers. In the media world, any connection they could create with Bruce Lee gave them another article.


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## OC Kid

Thanks Doc one of these days Im gonna have live on the edge get on the fwy and drive out to LA and have a sit down with ya...Im to old for anything else except a cup of coffee or a soda :>)


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## MA-Caver

Hrmm, I thought that I had replied to this thread and found out that I must've cancelled it. Oh well. 
I have posted something in an earlier thread relating to this topic. 
It may help or may not  :idunno: 
Martial Talk has a fine fine search engine... it bodes well to use it sometimes.   :asian:


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## Doc

OC Kid said:
			
		

> Thanks Doc one of these days Im gonna have live on the edge get on the fwy and drive out to LA and have a sit down with ya...Im to old for anything else except a cup of coffee or a soda :>)


You're on, and I'll buy. Say when.


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## OC Kid

Yea I used to train with Big T and Chicken. I saw the bird a while ago and he looks pretty good. he is doing alot better too.


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## donald

Doc/Sir,

I did not mean to imply that Mr.Parker Sr. was a student of Mr.Lee's. I attempted to answer a question of sorts from another poster to this site. My information is drawn purely from other sources. As I was not there. Some of my so-called info comes from Mr.Parker Sr.'s own books, or articles about him. What my conclusions are. Is that they(Mr.P.,Sr.&Mr.Lee)shared ideas. Some of which. I am of the belief, they each used respectively. Once again this is purely conjecture on my part. As I was not there.


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## punisher73

> Even Bruce's most famous student Danny Inosanto, (a Parker black belt) taught Bruce much more than the other way around.


I agree, it's amazing that more people don't notice that what Inosanto teaches today is HIS version of JKD using filipino arts at one time and now influenced by BJJ and Muay Thai.  Thus sparks the big battle of OJKD vs. JKD Concepts. 

Go to www.karateconnection.com and go to the articles section and there is an article title "The night I met Bruce Lee".  It is written about one of Mr. Parker's early students on one of the nights BL came by.


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## MA-Caver

punisher73 said:
			
		

> I agree, it's amazing that more people don't notice that what Inosanto teaches today is HIS version of JKD using filipino arts at one time and now influenced by BJJ and Muay Thai.  Thus sparks the big battle of OJKD vs. JKD Concepts.
> 
> Go to www.karateconnection.com and go to the articles section and there is an article title "The night I met Bruce Lee".  It is written about one of Mr. Parker's early students on one of the nights BL came by.


Wow, thanks for that. Makes for a very interesting read. Just too bad that he (the author) couldn't remember what "minor thing" Lee was talking about. I'm sure it would make for an interesting discussion today.  :asian:
But I think the article (which goes on about GM Parker) shows just what great innovators Lee and Parker were in their day. That they were willing to allow arguments on a set precept and continually learn and realize that maybe they're not always (totally) right about one idea, that an idea or a technique can be done a hundred different ways by a hundred different people.  Awesome.


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## Doc

donald said:
			
		

> Doc/Sir,
> 
> I did not mean to imply that Mr.Parker Sr. was a student of Mr.Lee's. I attempted to answer a question of sorts from another poster to this site. My information is drawn purely from other sources. As I was not there. Some of my so-called info comes from Mr.Parker Sr.'s own books, or articles about him. What my conclusions are. Is that they(Mr.P.,Sr.&Mr.Lee)shared ideas. Some of which. I am of the belief, they each used respectively. Once again this is purely conjecture on my part. As I was not there.


Don't sweat the small stuff sir.


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## TigerFist

Doc said:
			
		

> After about 2 years of Wing Chun training, Bruce came to this country to enroll in college at the age of 19 and became his own instructor. Although a quick study and a gifted athlete, Lee was not very knowledgeable in the arts.
> 
> By this time Parker had been in the military, finished college, opened 2 schools, was married with three kids, wrote and published 2 martial arts books, and had many students and was continuing to study with significant Chinese Masters of the day.


I always get a kick out of reading bull crap like this posted in forums. Bruce did not just study Wing Chun for 2 years and become his own teacher. Bruce actually began studying martial arts as child, first learning Hung Gar and Tai Chi and then learned from other styles, eventually studying Wing Chun for 5 years (not 2... I know it's hard for you but next time try to get your facts straight). 

As for who came first, who really cares as both Ed Parker and Bruce Lee made a huge impact on martial arts, although Bruce had more of an impact due to his worldwide exposure. Bruce would visit Parker at his Pasadena school (you can Chuck Sullivan about this if you'd like) and give demonstrations of his style. If you ask was better at Kenpo, of course the answer is Parker. But who was the better overall martial artist? Without question, it was Bruce. That is one reason why several of Parker's black belts at the time. Jerry Poteet and Dan Inosanto (both of him with I've studied for 9 years) being among the more well known. 

Just some facts for those who think Kenpo is the "be all, end all" of martial arts.


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## Doc

TigerFist said:
			
		

> I always get a kick out of reading bull crap like this posted in forums. Bruce did not just study Wing Chun for 2 years and become his own teacher. Bruce actually began studying martial arts as child, first learning Hung Gar and Tai Chi and then learned from other styles, eventually studying Wing Chun for 5 years (not 2... I know it's hard for you but next time try to get your facts straight).


Clearly you don't know me well enough to suggest "its hard for you [me] to get my facts straight." so let me suggest you drop that. I never said Bruce didn't study other arts, and I stand by my Wing Chun comments based on what he said himself. As long as you're dropping names, I believe my long time Pentkak colleague Guru Cliff Stewart will echo my comments. (Feel free to ask Danny about him before you really mess up)


> As for who came first, who really cares as both Ed Parker and Bruce Lee made a huge impact on martial arts, although Bruce had more of an impact due to his worldwide exposure. Bruce would visit Parker at his Pasadena school (you can Chuck Sullivan about this if you'd like) and give demonstrations of his style.


This may come as a shock to you, but I really don't have to consult Chuck. Perhaps you should "check with Chuck" before you make assumptions.


> If you ask was better at Kenpo, of course the answer is Parker. But who was the better overall martial artist? Without question, it was Bruce.


If I read your cryptic statements and attempt to fill in the spaces, clearly there is a question, however you are entitled to your opinion.  My assessment of Bruce as an overall martial artist was mirrored at the time by Wally Jay as well who called him a "nice kid .." Bruce eventually became a better martial artist as result of meeting Ed Parker who introduced him to others that taught him as well as his own black belt Inosanto. With guys like Sea Oh Choi, and Gene LeBell, etc teaching him, he had to get better. And before you have a problem with that as well, I witnessed these events. Not heresay but "facts."


> That is one reason why several of Parker's black belts at the time. Jerry Poteet and Dan Inosanto (both of him with I've studied for 9 years) being among the more well known.


In your rush to get "your facts" out you left out a few words. I presume you are alluding to these black belts leaving Parker to work out with Bruce. As a matter of fact, Danny taught Bruce more than the other way around, and that's not much of a secret. Danny came to Parker having already studied multiple arts and continued and moved on again with Bruce. So What? he liked what Bruce was doing and already had his black from Parker. Why not? He wasn't the only one that left to train with someone else. Rick Flores and Rich Montgomery left to study with Jimmy Woo. That doesn't make either teacher better or worse than Parker. it was people making a decision at a particular point in their lives what they wanted to do, AFTER they already had their black belts. Nothing new there. I'm shocked after a whole 9 years of studying, you haven't noticed a bunch of guys not there when you started as well.


> Just some facts for those who think Kenpo is the "be all, end all" of martial arts.


It would seemed you registered just to make your comments known, and a reminder that those are YOUR quotes, not mine. I never said that about Kenpo or any other art, because they are all flawed - even brands of JKD. Now that you have arrogantly educated and chastised us all to what you think the facts are, and reminded us of what Kenpo is not, I'd like to know whom you received your Kenpo black belt from and when - as long as you are dropping "fact bombs" on a forum you apparently have never contributed to in the past. Oh, and another thing, which one did you study with, Parker or Lee, and how well did you know them? 

I'm pleased you have got a kick out of the "bull crap." Feel free to get your kicks somewhere else if the interaction here is not up to your standards. We have this thing here at MartialTalk that is really encouraged called "civility." You might try it. You never know, you might like it - once you get past your own 9 years of arrogant "bull crap."


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## Rob Broad

Bravo Doc!!!


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## rmcrobertson

Just as a bit of support the last two posters don't need, I can pretty much tell you that I love it when students address famous dead people they've never met by their first names---students do it in English all the time ("Emily made her poetry from walking around Amherst"), and I guess they do it in martial arts as well ("Bruce and I went to the White Castle, and talked about why nobody else is as good a martial artist as us"), and it's kind sweet, and kinda absurd.

Mr. Lee was tremendously important to the martial arts in America and around the world, as a theoretican, a demonstrator and an actor: in a sense, he got the arts off their asses. Mr. Parker had a profound significance for martial arts, as a translator of the Asian arts, the formulator of a remarkable system, and a teacher of extraordinary martial artists--and the more I study kenpo, the more impressed I am by his intellectual achievements.

I don't understand why that isn't good enough.


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## kenposikh

OC Kid said:
			
		

> Thanks Doc one of these days Im gonna have live on the edge get on the fwy and drive out to LA and have a sit down with ya...Im to old for anything else except a cup of coffee or a soda :>)



Hey I don't believe that, Spend some time with Doc and he'll show you a few things that'll make you think you've only just started out in this world.

I have just started learning SL4 and the only words I seem to here are fix ya feet, stances you're foots in the hole etc etc I wonder where Mr Kevin Mills got those phrases eh Doc


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## Jagdish

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Mr. Parker had a profound significance for martial arts, as a translator of the Asian arts, the formulator of a remarkable system, and a teacher of extraordinary martial artists--and the more I study kenpo, the more impressed I am by his intellectual achievements.
> 
> *I don't understand why that isn't good enough*.



Sir:

It's impressive.

Yours,

Jagdish


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## Jagdish

TigerFist said:
			
		

> I always get a kick out of reading bull crap like this posted in forums. Bruce did not just study Wing Chun for 2 years and become his own teacher. Bruce actually began studying martial arts as child, first learning Hung Gar and Tai Chi and then learned from other styles, eventually studying Wing Chun for 5 years (not 2... I know it's hard for you but next time try to get your facts straight).
> 
> As for who came first, who really cares as both Ed Parker and Bruce Lee made a huge impact on martial arts, although Bruce had more of an impact due to his worldwide exposure. Bruce would visit Parker at his Pasadena school (you can Chuck Sullivan about this if you'd like) and give demonstrations of his style. If you ask was better at Kenpo, of course the answer is Parker. But who was the better overall martial artist? Without question, it was Bruce. That is one reason why several of Parker's black belts at the time. Jerry Poteet and Dan Inosanto (both of him with I've studied for 9 years) being among the more well known.
> 
> Just some facts for those who think Kenpo is the "be all, end all" of martial arts.



TigerFist:

If Bruce studied only 2 years W.C. then it's really impressive.Therefore Doc hasn't state something bad but the contrary.

The only thing is that it doensn't matter you agree or not but when you refer to somebody don't leave your manners at home.  

It's shocking how interesting discussion turn into  something personal.  

Yours,

Jagdish


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## SwedishChef

Regarding Bruce Lee's training in Wing Chun:  I was recently asking a wing chun instructor via email about the strength of a style developed by someone in the Bruce Lee lineage and about the style's wing chun content since Lee never completed the system.  This is what he had to say...

WingTsun (or "wing chun" in the generic sense) is not a martial art of accumulation, but rather of principle.  Bruce understood the core (aggressive defense, closing the gap, constant forward pressure) which is much better than all the phonies selling books and videos out there who "know the whole system" but couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.  If someone understands the core of wing chun, then they don't need much more to know how to fight for real, provided you train HARD.


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## The Kai

SwedishChef said:
			
		

> Regarding Bruce Lee's training in Wing Chun: I was recently asking a wing chun instructor via email about the strength of a style developed by someone in the Bruce Lee lineage and about the style's wing chun content since Lee never completed the system. This is what he had to say...
> 
> WingTsun (or "wing chun" in the generic sense) is not a martial art of accumulation, but rather of principle. Bruce understood the core (aggressive defense, closing the gap, constant forward pressure) which is much better than all the phonies selling books and videos out there who "know the whole system" but couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. If someone understands the core of wing chun, then they don't need much more to know how to fight for real, provided you train HARD.


Sure, probably repeated by every student who could'nt stick around long enough to learn the whole of the system.  Who decided that Bruce learned the core of the system or was it rather a artitary decision?  Given that at one time I though my Father was rather dogmatic and spent to much time on useless stuff- years later I realized how youthfull and arrogent I was


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## Gin-Gin

Doc said:
			
		

> After about 2 years of Wing Chun training, Bruce came to this country to enroll in college at the age of 19 and became his own instructor. Although a quick study and a gifted athlete, Lee was not very knowledgeable in the arts.
> 
> By this time Parker had been in the military, finished college, opened 2 schools, was married with three kids, wrote and published 2 martial arts books, and had many students and was continuing to study with significant Chinese Masters of the day.


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## Kenpodoc

TigerFist said:
			
		

> I always get a kick out of reading bull crap like this posted in forums. Bruce did not just study Wing Chun for 2 years and become his own teacher. Bruce actually began studying martial arts as child, first learning Hung Gar and Tai Chi and then learned from other styles, eventually studying Wing Chun for 5 years (not 2... I know it's hard for you but next time try to get your facts straight).
> 
> As for who came first, who really cares as both Ed Parker and Bruce Lee made a huge impact on martial arts, although Bruce had more of an impact due to his worldwide exposure. Bruce would visit Parker at his Pasadena school (you can Chuck Sullivan about this if you'd like) and give demonstrations of his style. If you ask was better at Kenpo, of course the answer is Parker. But who was the better overall martial artist? Without question, it was Bruce. That is one reason why several of Parker's black belts at the time. Jerry Poteet and Dan Inosanto (both of him with I've studied for 9 years) being among the more well known.
> 
> Just some facts for those who think Kenpo is the "be all, end all" of martial arts.


I assume that you realize that unlike most of the rest of us Doc was present when much of this occurred. He made his decision and chose Mr. Parker. Some others chose to go with Bruce Lee.  You can check with Mr. Sullivan if you wish but it is my impression that he also could have gone with Bruce Lee and he also chose Mr. Parker.

I've only seen Mr. Parker and Bruce Lee on Video.  They both move well and both are light years in front of me. Personally I feel Mr. Parker moved better and was more impressive.

I'm curious, you state you've studied with Jerry Poteet and Dan Inosanto for 9 years and yet you still list Kenpo first among your arts on your profile. 

Jeff


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## Jagdish

I don't like to enter too deep in some topics but i find a part of this interview interesting:  
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve Golden

HOW DID YOU FlRST BECOME INVOLVED IN THE MARTIAL ARTS?
Steve Golden: I think I was twelve when I really got interested. I used to read Popular Science and Popular Mechanics and they always had those "Defend y ourself , , , " type ads, I sent for everything they offered, Kind of funny now that I think back on it because I didn't have anyone that I wanted to defend myselffrom, But I was intensely interested and wanted to take lessons. The only school I could find was a Judo club and it was about thirty miles from my home. Being twelve. I didn't drive so I couldn't get to any classes. It wasn 't until1959 that Ed Parker did a demonstration at my high school. I was more than a little impressed. And I
had a driver's license.

DESCRIBE YOUR TRAlNING WITH ED PARKER?

SG: It was great. I signed up for a three month course. Classes were every Tuesday and Thursday from 7:00pm to 8:0Opm. By now you 've probably figured out that I continued after the three months. I practiced constantly and, after four months, I was invited into the intermediate class. That was from 8:00pm to 9:00pm. At 9:00pm everyone had to leave and the doors and shades were closed. That's when the advanced class worked out. No one was allowed to watch. Talk about inducement to practice.
Well, I did make it into the advanced class and used to be on the demonstration team. That was really fun. Ed would take us to schools, gyms, hotels and anywhere else that people were interested in martial arts. When we did a demo, we went hard.l'm still surprised that we didn't kill each other. Oh sure, someone would get their face smashed into the concrete or there would be a fractured rib now and then, but nothing really serious, 

HOW DID YOU FIRST MEET BRUCE LEE?
SG: I think it was in 1964 .Bruce used to stop by Ed' s school in Pasadena to talk to Ed. I think it was about the Hollywood scene, but  i wasn't interested in that so I never asked. But I was interested in Bruce. I don 't think that he ever got out without us questioning him. He always took the time to show us things and play around.

WHAT IMMEDIATE DIFFERENCE DID YOU NOTICE BETWEEN JKD AND KENPO?
SG: This might surprise you, but at that time I didn 't see much difference. The punches were a vertical fist and the side kicks used the flat ofthe foot and heal instead ofthe "knife edge." But that's small stuff. You should understand that we all relate and compare new things to what we already know. I knew hundreds of combat techniques from Kenpo. So, for example, when Bruce taught us trapping drills, I considered them new techniques. Sure, they were different techniques from the Kenpo Techniques I learned but it
wasn 't like it was really that revolutionary .No, it took years before I realized what Bruce was trying to teach me. Looking back on those days, I think of those days as the time that Bruce turned on the lights but I didn 't know how to open my eyes.

WOULD YOU SAY THA T ED P ARKER HAD A DIFFERENT INTERPRETA TION OF FIGHTING THAN BRUCE LEE?
SG: Of course he did. In Ed' s world of combat, your actions had a predetermined set of actions. In Bruce' s world, nothing was predetermined. ( except, of course, that he was going to win). If you look at Kenpo using JKD theory , Kenpo doesn 't look so good because it makes too many assumptions. But looking at Kenpo that way does not give you a true representation of what it was really like. I keep hearing people say that JKD is Bruce Lee. But I don 't hear people say that Kenpo is Ed Parker. But it ' s just as true. You
can look at Kenpo and tear it apart through theory but in reality Ed Parker made it work. And with Ed ' s personal teaching, I made it work too, until I met Bruce.

DID PARKER HARBOR ANY ILL FEELINGS TOW ARDS LEE SINCE SEVERAL OF HIS STUDENTS ENROLLED IN HIS LOS ANGELES CHINA TOWN SCHOOL ?
SG: I'm pretty sure that he wasn 't thrilled with the situation, but it wasn 't like you think. It might sound like Bruce came along, showed me something new and I deserted Ed, That's not what happened. I had been with Ed for over seven years. Ed was almost always at the school teaching me and the other advanced students. But, for the last year before I left, Ed was spending more and more time away from the Pasadena school. He was involved in his other schools and in dealing with the Hollywood crowd. So, at least for that period of time, he was not teaching me. So who left who ?


Ed and I remained friends. I had moved to Eugene, Oregon. He used to come there to do seminars for local Kenpo schools and I'd bring my students. He was so friendly to me and my students that the Kenpo people in town got real cool toward me after that. Ed was also a bodyguard to Elvis and he would sometimes be in Eugene when Elvis was performing there. During the day Ed would come to my home. He came over for Thanksgiving dinner one time and the next day he put on a private class for my students. Ed was really a great guy .And. I might add. a superb martial artist and a genius in developing his system.

IF YOU HAD TO PICK BETWEEN THE TWO, WHICH GENIUS WOULD YOU SAY YOU LEARNED THE MOST FROM, BRUCE LEE OR ED PARKER AND WHY?
SG: I&#8217;m not sure what that question means. The problem is that I don&#8217;t know how to value what I learned from each of them. Since I&#8217;ve been working on what I learned from Bruce Lee for over thirty years, you might think that his teachings would be the most valuable. However, things are not always that simple. One of the reasons Bruce liked Ed Parker&#8217;s people is because of the way we learned to move and learned to think. That training has stayed with me and influenced all of my understanding of Bruce&#8217;s teaching. So, maybe I would not have the understanding and abilities that I now have without the base from Ed Parker. It might also surprise you to find out that the Kenpo training keeps showing itself in a very positive manner in fits in well with all the other training. Of course, an observer might not recognize it as Kenpo. Then again, the observer might not recognize what I&#8217;m doing as anything related to Bruce Lee&#8217;s teaching either.
---------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## eyebeams

The thing is, though, that we know quite a bit about what Lee knew, and "trained for 2 years in one art" isn't it, even before he hit the mainland.

 This isn't all common knowledge, but it is known. To wit:

 1) Bruce Lee trained in Wing Chun long enough to learn Bill Jee: the last empty hand form in the Yip Man lineage and not something he shared with casual students. Even though this is something even Wing Chun folks deny, we know this because:

 * Bil Jee techniques were considered "closed door" in Lee's school. Dan Inosanto has said this.

 * Wong Jack Man's testimony of their fight indicated that Lee was familiar with Bil Jee, as he allegedly used it extensively.

 This belies any statement about him training in Wing Chun for only 2 years.

 2) Lee demonstrated knowledge of both Hung Gar (there are films of him doing Hung Gar sets; I've seen one from a CBC program.) and the Tam Toi routine, In fact, given his background, it would be almost impossible for him *not* to learn Tam Toi, since it's the single most common foundation set in kung fu thanks to being adopted by Jingwu and some schools' Phys Ed programs. Lee's father was a Tai Chi stylist and shared it with him.

 Therefore, it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that Bruce Lee's ability came solely through contacts he made via Ed Parker, though I understand it certainly must be tempting to imply this on a kenpo board. 

 Of course, if we want to compare their achievements (without, apparently, comparing their ages) we can see that Lee was a working actor with multiple credits and a dance champion by his teens.

 Who was the better martial artist? I have no idea, and I'll venture that since the values attached to skill vary from person to person, this is a largely meaningless thing to judge one way or another.


----------



## Kenpodoc

I may have missed it but I don't think anyone suggested that 





> Bruce Lee's ability came solely through contacts he made via Ed Parker.


 It might be suggested that Bruce Lee's fame came about because of the contacts he made via Ed Parker. But he was an industrious, charismatically talented young man and might have found his way into show business even without Ed Parker.

Jeff


----------



## Doc

eyebeams said:
			
		

> The thing is, though, that we know quite a bit about what Lee knew, and "trained for 2 years in one art" isn't it, even before he hit the mainland.
> 
> This isn't all common knowledge, but it is known. To wit:
> 
> 1) Bruce Lee trained in Wing Chun long enough to learn Bill Jee: the last empty hand form in the Yip Man lineage and not something he shared with casual students. Even though this is something even Wing Chun folks deny, we know this because:
> 
> * Bil Jee techniques were considered "closed door" in Lee's school. Dan Inosanto has said this.
> 
> * Wong Jack Man's testimony of their fight indicated that Lee was familiar with Bil Jee, as he allegedly used it extensively.
> 
> This belies any statement about him training in Wing Chun for only 2 years.
> 
> 2) Lee demonstrated knowledge of both Hung Gar (there are films of him doing Hung Gar sets; I've seen one from a CBC program.) and the Tam Toi routine, In fact, given his background, it would be almost impossible for him *not* to learn Tam Toi, since it's the single most common foundation set in kung fu thanks to being adopted by Jingwu and some schools' Phys Ed programs. Lee's father was a Tai Chi stylist and shared it with him.
> 
> Therefore, it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that Bruce Lee's ability came solely through contacts he made via Ed Parker, though I understand it certainly must be tempting to imply this on a kenpo board.
> 
> Of course, if we want to compare their achievements (without, apparently, comparing their ages) we can see that Lee was a working actor with multiple credits and a dance champion by his teens.
> 
> Who was the better martial artist? I have no idea, and I'll venture that since the values attached to skill vary from person to person, this is a largely meaningless thing to judge one way or another.


 There would seem to be some misinterpretations and a complete lack of reading comp skills surrounding my original statement. Let me say it again;

 I never suggested the totality of Bruce Lee's training was limited to ONLY 2 years of Wing Chun, nor does his knowledge of Wing Chun reflect that of a 2 years student. He came to Wing Chun as an experienced martial artist.

 My point here was that Bruce Lee was on his own at the age of 19 as the head of and running his own school, in comparison to where Ed Parker was and his accomplishments at that time. 

 I never said Bruce Lee's ability came solely through contact with Ed Parker. Clearly he came to Wing Chun with some skills, and left with additional knowledge sufficient enough to get him not only noticed but ostracized by the Chinese Martial Arts Community. 

 However it was through Ed Parker that his Hollywood career began, and it was Ed Parker that introduced Bruce to people that he drew considerable knowledge from, that wasn't there before and had a significant impact on Bruce. Relatively speaking, at the time Bruce was, as Wally Jay said, "A nice kid but he don't know that much." In comparison to what Parker had did, done, and doing as a man and a martial artist at the time they met, Bruce's knowledge was not significant among the martial art elite. 

 Consider Parker was hanging with Ark Wong, "Tiny" Lefiti, Jimmy Woo, Lau Bun, James Woo, Sea Oh Choi, Gene LeBell, Wally Jay, Tsutomu Oshima, Hidetaka Nishiyama, Tak Kubota, and the list goes on here in southern California where all respected Parker. Parker was even welcome into the underground Chinese Martial Arts Culture where Bruce Lee wasn't. Drop the 19 year old kid into this group and the comments put in context make sense.

 What Bruce brought to the table was limited knowledge at his young age, but a tremendous physical gift and talent that allowed him to absorb information and skill at a tremendous rate. That is why the elite people Parker introduced Bruce to had such an incredible impact on him, and also why they liked him. His talent was overwhelming. So much so that many of those relationships, like Gene LeBell, became long term.


----------



## eyebeams

Doc said:
			
		

> There would seem to be some misinterpretations and a complete lack of reading comp skills surrounding my original statement. Let me say it again;
> 
> I never suggested the totality of Bruce Lee's training was limited to ONLY 2 years of Wing Chun, nor does his knowledge of Wing Chun reflect that of a 2 years student. He came to Wing Chun as an experienced martial artist.


 The thing is, he wasn't just a student for 2 years. Aside from the fact that it would be very odd for Yip Man to teach Bil Jee in such a short period, the fact that he was an experienced practitioner as far back as '58 is documented:

http://www.wingchun.com/ROLF.htm

In any event, I mostly see where you're coming from -- but leaving aside the year, where was Parker at age 19?

 Yes, it's an unfair comparison, since there wasn't a martial arts community ready to pay attention to Parker in the way they paid attention to Lee. But the converse is true; it is hardly appropriate to compare the achievements of two men with a 9 year age difference.

 I did, in fact, comprehend what you were saying (and there's certainly no need to be snippy. I just disagree with both your factual account of Lee's personal history and don't believe it's really appropriate to compare the two.

 I do believe that Parker's legacy is the more substantial of the two. My own teacher directed me to his books as the only relevant printed material on a number of subjects (particularly coiling motions and 8 directional striking). I'm hardly trying to denigrate Ed Parker.


----------



## Doc

> My question of the elders on this forum that may have been around back then is what came first "the Parker or the Lee"?


I guess reading comp is still out to lunch. This was the original question, and I thought I answered it.


----------



## Ceicei

The question was not which of the two is better, but rather, which came first.  Being first on the scene does not necessarily make one better or worse than the other.  They both had their own skills and their own experiences and contributed in their own way.  They, however, contributed because of others (before/with them) and not solely upon their own merits.

 - Ceicei


----------



## eyebeams

> I guess reading comp is still out to lunch.


 Do a couple of extra years of Wing Chun especially warrant this remark?


----------



## Doc

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Do a couple of extra years of Wing Chun especially warrant this remark?


Nope!


> Therefore, it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that Bruce Lee's ability came solely through contacts he made via Ed Parker, though I understand it certainly must be tempting to imply this on a kenpo board.


How about that?

Especially considering I made no such suggestion. Perhaps you were the disingenuous one? Or as I said about "reading comp"... I have no problem with anyone coming to "a kenpo board," but remember you're a guest in our house, and although you have a right to disagree, don't put words in our mouth. I consider the issue closed and no longer worthy of discussion. A search of the site will yield additional remarks by me in the past on the subject, if you're interested.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Do a couple of extra years of Wing Chun especially warrant this remark?


My guess...not thoroughly digesting the content thus far provided warrants it.

D.


----------



## Doc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> My guess...not thoroughly digesting the content thus far provided warrants it.
> 
> D.


We must be doing something right. Alot of newbies showing up with no profiles and few posts.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Doc said:
			
		

> We must be doing something right. Alot of newbies showing up with no profiles and few posts.


Newbies with no strudle?


----------



## SwedishChef

The Kai said:
			
		

> Sure, probably repeated by every student who could'nt stick around long enough to learn the whole of the system. Who decided that Bruce learned the core of the system or was it rather a artitary decision? Given that at one time I though my Father was rather dogmatic and spent to much time on useless stuff- years later I realized how youthfull and arrogent I was


Well this guy DID complete the wing tsun system in the Leung Ting line (and is teaching it now) as well as studying in Bruce Lee's line from Seattle descendants and Jeet Kune Do. This is why I felt he was qualified to comment. How much wing chun have you had that you would know what its all about?


----------



## Rob Broad

What is with all the Anon-a-pussies posting in this thread.  If you want to be taken seriously take the 2 minutes and fill out your profile.  That will let others understand where you are coming from, and might event eliminate a little of the friction.

As to who influenced whom the most the point is pretty well moot since neither Ed Parker nor Bruce Lee are with us anymore to answer who who got what from whom.  Luckily we do have people like Doc, Dan Insanto and many others who where there back then, but remember history changes with time, sometimes on purpose, sometimes for convience, and sometimes just over the course of times because the memory plays tricks.


----------



## evenflow1121

Doc said:
			
		

> After about 2 years of Wing Chun training, Bruce came to this country to enroll in college at the age of 19 and became his own instructor. Although a quick study and a gifted athlete, Lee was not very knowledgeable in the arts.]
> 
> Funny you mention this, I heard a similar story to yours from a Hung Gar Grandmaster who knew Lee as well. You'd be surprised how many people erroneously believe Mr. Lee was a Wing Chun Master, that and Yip Man's best student.


----------



## SwedishChef

Anon-a-pussies?  If you're including me in this, some TKD and a mixed kungfu style when I was younger.  3 1/2 years of Sil Lum Chuan Tao KungFu which bears a striking resemblance to the kenpo many of you study.  But my background is sort of immaterial to this conversation.  I was citing info I got about the core of wing chun and that Bruce Lee had the most important parts of that style down.  I don't even care about the original question.  They were both great.  I wish I could have met them, but hey, born too late.  Whatcha gonna do?  People need to calm down.  Anyone take a qi gong class around here?


----------



## Jagdish

People need to calm down.  Anyone take a qi gong class around here?[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> :rofl:


----------



## Jagdish

Doc said:
			
		

> I consider the issue closed and no longer worthy of discussion.



:vu:  :erg:  :xtrmshock  :waah:


----------



## eyebeams

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> What is with all the Anon-a-pussies posting in this thread.


My real name is Malcolm Sheppard. I live in Peterborough, ON -- same province as you!

I suppose there is supposed to be some particular context where an assertion that Bruce Lee studied Wing Chun for 2 years correlates with the evidence that he did not. Not that he studied other arts as well, but that he did, in fact, have more than two years of Wing Chun under his belt.

Appealing to the original question does not magically render this factual error correct. Vaguely alluding to a special context doesn't do it.
Flaming me and declaring "newb!" does not magically truncate the amount of time Lee trained WC to 2 years.

As for anything else, I think it's pretty clear that the intent of several posts here was to glorify Parker at Lee's expense. This was a bad idea -- even in your own "house." As for me, I've openly said I respect the EPAK lineage. That merely doesn't extend to respecting contrafactual statements.


----------



## The Kai

SwedishChef said:
			
		

> Well this guy DID complete the wing tsun system in the Leung Ting line (and is teaching it now) as well as studying in Bruce Lee's line from Seattle descendants and Jeet Kune Do. This is why I felt he was qualified to comment. How much wing chun have you had that you would know what its all about?


Actuaaly never been interested or impressed with Wing Chun.
I though the talk was one Bruces Wing Chunness, but congrates to you BTW


----------



## Toasty

Just for a little clarification about Bruce Lee's training:

1954-1957
 Studied Wing Chun under the instruction of Yip Man where he learned as far as the second hand form and part of the wooden dummy form. Didn't finish the wooden dummy form, learn the third hand form or weapons forms. With Wong Sheun-Leung, William Cheung, and others, made Wing Chun famous in Hong Kong by winning numerous challenge matches against other martial artists.  
1957-1958
 Continued Wing Chun under the instruction of Wong Shun-Leung.  
1957-1959
 Continued Wing Chun under the instruction of William Cheung 

Thats 5 years... not 2.


And one cool thing about Wing Chun, its form Sui Lim Tao & the wooden man (dummy) it is also designed for self-training .
Notice, all it says about not finishing the wooden dummy or forms; is that he didnt finish them UNDER Yip Man... from '57 to '59 he was still training in Wing Chun.


----------



## Kenpodoc

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> I may have missed it but I don't think anyone suggested that Bruce Lee's ability came solely through contacts he made via Ed Parker.  It might be suggested that Bruce Lee's fame came about because of the contacts he made via Ed Parker. But he was an industrious, charismatically talented young man and might have found his way into show business even without Ed Parker.
> 
> Jeff


I recieved an anonymous ding in my reputation for the above quote with the following comment. 





> Might have? That's what happened! - Anon-a-pus


 Please explain where I was disrespectful. Hollywood is an "old boys club" and talent alone won't get you in.  It is well documented that Mr. Parker helped introduce Bruce Lee to  people who could help his show business career.  

Jeff

(The Anon-a-pus signature is my addition.)


----------



## evenflow1121

I was not alive when either of these two individuals were training together, nor was I alive when Mr. Lee passed away.  I was alive and fortunate enough to see Mr. Parker at a seminar one time about year before he died.  And let me make a quick point about this to some of the MA new comers--there are a lot of people that have taken pictures with MA pioneers like Mr. Parker cut their pictures from the waist up and then claim that they are direct Parker bb, dont be fooled by this tactic, any yellow belt can usually take a pic with an MA pioneer and then alter the pic from the waist up. 

Ok didnt mean to troll there, that just came to mind, because I know a lot of people these days are wrongfully claiming to have been direct BB of Mr Parker.  As for Bruce Lee or Ed Parker, not to take anything away from Bruce Lee, its obvious that Bruce Lee's contribution to the MA's does not have a price, but Lee would not have been a household name without Parker's help.  So, somewhat biased as it may seem, I must say Ed Parker.


----------



## SwedishChef

The Kai said:
			
		

> Actuaaly never been interested or impressed with Wing Chun.
> I though the talk was one Bruces Wing Chunness, but congrates to you BTW


Can anyone translate this for me?


----------



## kenpo_cory

SwedishChef said:
			
		

> Can anyone translate this for me?



Everyone wing chung tonight???????????????


----------



## The Kai

SwedishChef said:
			
		

> Can anyone translate this for me?


As I said earlier I've never studied wing chun due to a lack of interest and never really been impressed withthe system

The second part was in reference to your cooment on how much wing chun you have done


----------



## Jagdish

The Kai said:
			
		

> As I said earlier I've never studied wing chun due to a lack of interest and never really been impressed withthe system
> 
> The second part was in reference to your cooment on how much wing chun you have done



Sir:

May i ask you what do you think/feel Wing chun lacks of?

Yours,

Jagdish


----------



## TigerFist

http://www.tracyskenpokarate.com/Kenpo%20vs.%20American%20Kenpo.htm

"Parker was promoted by Chow to 1st degree so that he could teach on the mainland. There is much speculation on whether his 3rd from Chow was real or forged due to the fact that Chow claimed he didn't talk to Parker after giving him a 1st degree black"

The story then goes that Parker, in 1964, went from 3rd to 6th Dan in a hotel room in Long Beach before the tournament because that would be the rank suitable for one hosting the tournament.


----------



## The Kai

From the tracy website....So we are looking for a credible source yet then


----------



## Bode

Doc is doing seminars in England right now otherwise I am sure he would have something to say. I have never heard Doc tell a story where Parker was either A) a racist B) one who would promote himself. Believe me I have heard the stories about Parker straight from Doc. While some would believe Doc didn't learn from Parker I find this laughable. All you have to do is take a look at who promoted Ed Parker Jr (Jr only used for clarification) to black belt. 

 In terms of credibility. Everyone has their own interpretation of events. Some claim Mitose was a genius. Some claim Chow didn't promote EP to black (as the article claims) With all the constant bickering amongst Martial Artists it's no wonder there is so much inacurate information. 

 Peronally, I don't subscribe to the "who promoted who" and "what rank are you" attitude. The evidence of the teacher is in the students. When you see an entire classroom and the orange belts move as good as the black belts, then you have a problem. 

 Who really cares where the information comes from? EP was a genius at codifying and describing the martial arts. We stand on his shoulders. On the foundations he built for HOW to THINK about the arts. Others continued with the foundations that EP created. Give credit where credit is due, but look to the students for evidence of a teachers skill. Graduating from Harvard does not mean you will perform well in your job area. It is a discriminator and should be given it's proper respect, but it is not, and never should be, the final word. 

 Credit is mainly due for Chow and Ark Wong, who both taught EP. If other people are on the list, so be it, but we shouldn't get caught up in the, "Well so and so showed him this little wrist flippy thing, so give him credit."

 So was it Parker or Lee? 
 Who cares... my teacher learned from Parker and I believe his students are evidence enough of his skill. 
 Not trying to kill a thread, but this debate has been going on forever.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Bode said:
			
		

> While some would believe Doc didn't learn from Parker I find this laughable. All you have to do is take a look at who promoted Ed Parker Jr (Jr only used for clarification) to black belt.


Now that is laughable.   Ed Jr. is not a premier representation of an American Kenpo Black Belt by any stretch of the imagination.   If that's your evidence I'd suggest you find another example.


DarK LorD


----------



## Toasty

"Credit is mainly due for Chow and Ark Wong, who both taught EP. If other people are on the list, so be it, but we shouldn't get caught up in the, "Well so and so showed him this little wrist flippy thing, so give him credit"





Ark Wong?  
Don't you mean James Wing Woo? 

Didn't most of the American Kenpo forms (sets) come from Mr. Woo?


----------



## rmcrobertson

Ark Y. Wong taught one of the few traditional Chinese classes open to everybody during the 1950s and 1960s, in LA's Chinatown, and Mr. Parker apparently was pretty well acquainted. Mr. Woo did a lot of the forms, up through Long 2, but remained a general influence after that. Apparently, a lot of the set and form material is either rewritings of traditional stuff, or the concepts of assorted black belts in kenpo, reworked by the man himself.


----------



## kenposikh

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Now that is laughable.   Ed Jr. is not a premier representation of an American Kenpo Black Belt by any stretch of the imagination.   If that's your evidence I'd suggest you find another example.
> 
> 
> DarK LorD




Sir,

can you explain what you mean by this statement, what makes someone a premier representation of a black belt the knowledge or the ability to teach and explain and pass on information.

Let me qualify take a person who has trained in or been around the arts for 40 years and then has an unfortuneate accident so that they are confined to a wheelchair. Do we take their blackbelt away cos they can't do anymore...

No offence just wondering


----------



## Bode

> Now that is laughable. Ed Jr. is not a premier representation of an American Kenpo Black Belt by any stretch of the imagination. If that's your evidence I'd suggest you find another example.


 My statement was not intended to use EP Jr as a "premier representation" of American Kenpo. It was only an attempt to connect one person to another. Chapel to EP Jr. I think it pretty well establishes that EP and Chapel at least knew each other. I find it unlikely EP Jr would have received his black belt from someone who didn't know his father. 
  The skill of EP Jr are another topic. I have personally never seen him move so I cannot comment. Clear?



> Mr. Woo did a lot of the forms, up through Long 2, but remained a general influence after that. -rmrobertson


 Thanks for the addition. One more major EP influence. 
 Back on subject... Bruce or EP? 
 If EP did learn something from Bruce, surely it wasn't enough to claim him as a major influence. Ark Wong, Chow, and Woo... that probably rounds out the bunch.


----------



## Ray

Bode said:
			
		

> Doc is doing seminars in England right now otherwise I am sure he would have something to say. I have never heard Doc tell a story where Parker was either A) a racist B) one who would promote himself.


The assertion in the link in post 59 that, because Parker was LDS (Mormon), he was also a racist is a false statement (it doesn't logically follow).  I didn't know Parker, so I can't say whether he was or wasn't; if he was it wasn't the church's fault.

(Again in ref to the link in post 59) As far as EPAK containing all sorts of LDS Temple "signs and tokens," it is also false.  Twenty years of kenpo did nothing to prepare me for any visits to the temple (I converted in 2000).  And I learned Kenpo in Salt Lake, from a Mormon who knew Parker (and who, at least, hosted some of Parker's seminars--he split off from the IKKA in 1985).


----------



## Goldendragon7

Ray said:
			
		

> The assertion in the link in post 59 that, because Parker was LDS (Mormon), he was also a racist is a _*false statement*_!  and.....  as far as EPAK containing all sorts of LDS Temple "signs and tokens," it is also _*false*_!


  I agree with Ray....

   Once and for all...... this type of nonsense is pure....
   :bs:

 I am catholic and even tho we disagreed on theological issues at times ..... in all the years I was with him there were never any _racial issues _or _religious issues_ forced upon me.  If there were "little tokens or signs" of anything that could be applicable to training..... they were _*generic*_ for anyone to use as examples, no matter what the religious beliefs!

(I am so tired of hearing this type of discussion....)  sigh

   :asian:


----------



## Doc

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Now that is laughable.   Ed Jr. is not a premier representation of an American Kenpo Black Belt by any stretch of the imagination.   If that's your evidence I'd suggest you find another example.
> DarK LorD


Typical of you you to chime in and take shots because someone's name is mentioned. I suggest you look like crap by my standards. I know its my opinion, just like you have one. Now what has been established? Nothing. I think if you have something negative to say about Edmund you call him up, instead of making such comments on a thread not even about him. It's almost as if you lie in wait for an opprotunity to always have something negative to say. Its getting old.


----------



## Doc

Toasty said:
			
		

> "Credit is mainly due for Chow and Ark Wong, who both taught EP. If other people are on the list, so be it, but we shouldn't get caught up in the, "Well so and so showed him this little wrist flippy thing, so give him credit"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ark Wong?
> Don't you mean James Wing Woo?
> 
> Didn't most of the American Kenpo forms (sets) come from Mr. Woo?


No, he meant and said, Ark Wong.


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> I agree with Ray....
> 
> Once and for all...... this type of nonsense is pure....
> :bs:
> 
> I am catholic and even tho we disagreed on theological issues at times ..... in all the years I was with him there were never any _racial issues _or _religious issues_ forced upon me.  If there were "little tokens or signs" of anything that could be applicable to training..... they were _*generic*_ for anyone to use as examples, no matter what the religious beliefs!
> 
> (I am so tired of hearing this type of discussion....)  sigh
> 
> :asian:


Agreed. As one of Ed Parker's Black Belts who had a close relationship with him from 1963 to 1990 when he passed, He NEVER attempted to force or preach his religious convictions on anyone to my knowledge. And the racial crap is laughable to me as a Black Man who knew him well.


----------



## Doc

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Ark Y. Wong taught one of the few traditional Chinese classes open to everybody during the 1950s and 1960s, in LA's Chinatown, and Mr. Parker apparently was pretty well acquainted. Mr. Woo did a lot of the forms, up through Long 2, but remained a general influence after that. Apparently, a lot of the set and form material is either rewritings of traditional stuff, or the concepts of assorted black belts in kenpo, reworked by the man himself.


Awesomely accurate statement.


----------



## BruceCalkins

bushi jon said:
			
		

> If I am not mistaken it was Ed Parker that gave BL his irst big break in the Movies. I remember Ep had a production company at the time and he turned Bl over to the producers of the Green Hornet and several smaller roles.I could be wrong though


Greeting Jon: Althoguh Ed Parker and Bruce Lee made a stong bond in the early 60s and both shared knowledge with each other. Bruce Lee was a Major Movy Star before he came to Americe just not in the US. He had been working with Movies from age 6, His father was an actor. Bruce Lee also trained in Koon Long and Shaolin Kung-fu long before he trained in Wing Chun. He just Counts Yip Man and his favorite teacher because these trainings were the foundation to his JKD. BL also trained in Thai Fighting and even got his golden gloves in american boxing. Before the Internationals where BL demoed his JKD and his 1 inch punch EP had not met him. Their friendship built from there. I have several Books on BL that mention EP as a friend and influance as his art evolved through the years. JKD never stopped evolving right up to Lee's Death.


----------



## Doc

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> Greeting Jon: Althoguh Ed Parker and Bruce Lee made a stong bond in the early 60s and both shared knowledge with each other. Bruce Lee was a Major Movy Star before he came to Americe just not in the US. He had been working with Movies from age 6, His father was an actor. Bruce Lee also trained in Koon Long and Shaolin Kung-fu long before he trained in Wing Chun. He just Counts Yip Man and his favorite teacher because these trainings were the foundation to his JKD. BL also trained in Thai Fighting and even got his golden gloves in american boxing. Before the Internationals where BL demoed his JKD and his 1 inch punch EP had not met him. Their friendship built from there. I have several Books on BL that mention EP as a friend and influance as his art evolved through the years. JKD never stopped evolving right up to Lee's Death.


Bruce was not a major star in the Hong Kong cinema, but he was a child actor doing bit roles, and reading books is indeed one way to get information not always factual. As far as how long he trained in Wing Chun, I was surprised no one asked me where I got my information from. Simple, that's what Bruce said, and I believed him.


----------



## BruceCalkins

Doc said:
			
		

> Bruce was not a major star in the Hong Kong cinema, but he was a child actor doing bit roles, .


No disrespect intended but.
Yes he was a Child actor doing bit roles until he was about 14 then he had larger roles and even a few where he was a major (If not Lead) player. Lee had over 50 movies under his belt before he ever did an american film. And his Martial Arts training started from his father at an early age his father was a Kung-Fu Artist and studied Wu Shu and Shaolin Kung-Fu. And he started Wing Chun at age 13


----------



## The Kai

Part of the Bruce Lee mythology

Actually WU Shu was not an art till the 80's


----------



## BruceCalkins

It was not a Sport. Until 1980s. Wu Shu was used by the Chinese Actors in Kabuki for many years before 1980


----------



## Toasty

Doc said:
			
		

> No, he meant and said, Ark Wong.





Yeah, thanks there Doc... I knew what he said, thats why I asked.

So, what influence did Ark Wong have on Ed Parker as opposed to James Wing Woo?


----------



## hardheadjarhead

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> It was not a Sport. Until 1980s. Wu Shu was used by the Chinese Actors in Kabuki for many years before 1980



Sorry, but you're very, very wrong.

Kabuki is classical Japanese theater, not Chinese.  Wu Shu has never, I repeat NEVER been used in Kabuki theater in any form at any time.


Regards,


Steve


----------



## Jagdish

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> BL also trained in Thai Fighting



Sir,

Where did you get this info? it's the first time i hear this. Who was his teacher?The book where you got the info?



> Before the Internationals where BL demoed his JKD and his 1 inch punch EP had not met him. .



Actually Ed Parker met Bruce Lee through James Y.Lee before the Internationals.

Respectfully,

Jagdish


----------



## hardheadjarhead

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> BL also trained in Thai Fighting and even got his golden gloves in american boxing.




Also inaccurate.  Bruce Lee didn't box Golden Gloves.  Any training he had in Muay Thai was limited.  Inosanto opines that Lee was incorrect on his assessment of Muay Thai's mobility.  


Regards,


Steve


----------



## Toasty

Doc, do have any input on the following? (I know this is a different Jimmy Woo, just that I have seen similarities between San Soo & Kenpo - wondering if Mr. Parker had any kind of relationship with this Mr. Woo?)

"An old school kung fu master named Ark Wong (r.i.p.), noted along with the grandmaster and Bruce Lee for being one of the first asians to start teaching non-chinese, also taught a five family system called Choy Li Ho Mok Hung (I may have one of the families mixed up, but it's basically the same as San Soo - Choy Li Ho Fut Hung -ours except one of the families we have is substituted with the mok family). Ark Wong came from the same region as Grandmaster Woo, possibly even from the same town. They knew each other well in a friendly rivalry sort of way. This points also to some form of what we know as san soo being practiced in China by other people."


----------



## Ray

I'm glad to see that this thread has turned to some historical discussion.  

Frankly, the original subject seemed to be one of the least edifying that I've seen on this site.  I really enjoy threads that highlite how others interpet techniques and forms - and I enjoy the historical aspect, especially when it comes from those who know it first hand.


----------



## Doc

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> No disrespect intended but.
> Yes he was a Child actor doing bit roles until he was about 14 then he had larger roles and even a few where he was a major (If not Lead) player. Lee had over 50 movies under his belt before he ever did an american film. And his Martial Arts training started from his father at an early age his father was a Kung-Fu Artist and studied Wu Shu and Shaolin Kung-Fu. And he started Wing Chun at age 13


http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/fridayreview/story/0,12102,995294,00.html
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000045/


----------



## BruceCalkins

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Sorry, but you're very, very wrong.
> 
> Kabuki is classical Japanese theater, not Chinese. Wu Shu has never, I repeat NEVER been used in Kabuki theater in any form at any time.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Steve


Absolutly right... Sorry It was a mistake on my behalf. I ment the Chinese Opera House Not Kabuki... OOPS


----------



## dubljay

Doc said:
			
		

> As one of Ed Parker's Black Belts who had a close relationship with him from 1963 to 1990 when he passed.


 No disrespect indended, but curiosity has gotten the better of me.

 Sir, what this says to me is that you were in the thick of this stuff back then correct? What you say comes from more or less first hand knowledge of these two individuals right?

 Is there any one else here that can make that claim?


----------



## Doc

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> It was not a Sport. Until 1980s. Wu Shu was used by the Chinese Actors in Kabuki for many years before 1980


Sir, up to this point you've made a lot of "definitive" statements, of which the majority have been very incorrect. Perhaps you should check your sources, or at least share them so others may examine them and reach their own conclusions. Another suggestion; soke-anything is somewhat out of place on this forum - unless of course it is an in-joke. At any rate your credibility in your recommendations of whom you see as significant seniors, to your "historical" postings are, at best, questionable.


----------



## Doc

dubljay said:
			
		

> No disrespect indended, but curiosity has gotten the better of me.
> 
> Sir, what this says to me is that you were in the thick of this stuff back then correct? What you say comes from more or less first hand knowledge of these two individuals right?
> 
> Is there any one else here that can make that claim?


"Being in the thick of things" is subjective. I happen to be "around" as a young man, and had the priveledge of being friends with Ed Parker, which afforded me the opportunity of meeting Bruce Lee. But I was a long way from being the only one. Most of Parker's local black belts met Bruce lee and interacted with him. My info on how long he studied Wing Chun came from his mouth. As far as all this other stuff he studied, who knows. I do know that logic dictates it is of little consequence. We know about Bruce's child acting career alongside his father. No, he wasn't a major actor ever and was completely unknown in this country. Major actors from any market are known throughout the world, even then. As an old fan of Asian films in the sixties and seventies, there were a great many actors whose work was even known to the general public in this country. Bruce Lee was not one of them.

Knowing of his extensive acting as a child, along with his passionate professional dancing, left little time for any serious martial arts training. Even if it did, there was little of the Chinese Sciences taught to children of the culture. We know definitively that Bruce left Hong Kong at 18 years old. All things considered, just how much knowledge and skill do you think this "kid" had when he left? I go back to what Wally Jay said when he met him. "Nice kid but he don't know much." Parker echoed the same sentiments, but raved about his physical potential. The man was a significant figure in martial arts history, but Parker resisted such deification of individuals, as so do I.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> It was not a Sport. Until 1980s. Wu Shu was used by the Chinese Actors in Kabuki for many years before 1980


chinese kabuki?
hahahaha
i will admit that i am a novice in the martial arts (9 years).....and in the study of japanese history (13 years). 
one of the most important things to remember when posting on this forum is, if you "think" you're an expert on a particular subject.....chances are, there is someone here that IS an expert, and comments will be picked apart faster than a thirsty mammal in a piranha pool.
a lot of people studied with the ones you've read about........studied in the countries of origin and immersed themselves in the culture.
so while it may seem like you're getting attacked........it's usually a friendly mention that maybe you should understand or know the facts before making outrageous statements.


----------



## dubljay

Doc said:
			
		

> "Being in the thick of things" is subjective. I happen to be "around" as a young man, and had the priveledge of being friends with Ed Parker, which afforded me the opportunity of meeting Bruce Lee. But I was a long way from being the only one. Most of Parker's local black belts met Bruce lee and interacted with him. My info on how long he studied Wing Chun came from his mouth. As far as all this other stuff he studied, who knows. I do know that logic dictates it is of little consequence. We know about Bruce's child acting career alongside his father. No, he wasn't a major actor ever and was completely unknown in this country. Major actors from any market are known throughout the world, even then. As an old fan of Asian films in the sixties and seventies, there were a great many actors whose work was even known to the general public in this country. Bruce Lee was not one of them.
> 
> Knowing of his extensive acting as a child, along with his passionate professional dancing, left little time for any serious martial arts training. Even if it did, there was little of the Chinese Sciences taught to children of the culture. We know definitively that Bruce left Hong Kong at 18 years old. All things considered, just how much knowledge and skill do you think this "kid" had when he left? I go back to what Wally Jay said when he met him. "Nice kid but he don't know much." Parker echoed the same sentiments, but raved about his physical potential. The man was a significant figure in martial arts history, but Parker resisted such deification of individuals, as so do I.


 Thank you sir.  The reason I asked is because I am trying to wade through this thread and sort out the second and third hand hearsay history that is flying around from what actually went on.  First hand experience and memory is often a more accurate picture.  Again thank you for clearifying for me.

 -Josh


----------



## Doc

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> Greeting Jon: Althoguh Ed Parker and Bruce Lee made a stong bond in the early 60s and both shared knowledge with each other. Bruce Lee was a Major Movy Star before he came to Americe just not in the US. He had been working with Movies from age 6, His father was an actor. Bruce Lee also trained in Koon Long and Shaolin Kung-fu long before he trained in Wing Chun. He just Counts Yip Man and his favorite teacher because these trainings were the foundation to his JKD. BL also trained in Thai Fighting and even got his golden gloves in american boxing.


A great deal of misinformation here.


> Before the Internationals where BL demoed his JKD and his 1 inch punch EP had not met him.


So how did he get into Ed Parker's tournament to do a demo? I suggest you stop giving information. You have completely lost credibility in my eyes and clearly do not know what your talking about. It is apparent you have been reading a bunch of something howevver.


----------



## Doc

Toasty said:
			
		

> Doc, do have any input on the following? (I know this is a different Jimmy Woo, just that I have seen similarities between San Soo & Kenpo - wondering if Mr. Parker had any kind of relationship with this Mr. Woo?)
> 
> "An old school kung fu master named Ark Wong (r.i.p.), noted along with the grandmaster and Bruce Lee for being one of the first asians to start teaching non-chinese, also taught a five family system called Choy Li Ho Mok Hung (I may have one of the families mixed up, but it's basically the same as San Soo - Choy Li Ho Fut Hung -ours except one of the families we have is substituted with the mok family). Ark Wong came from the same region as Grandmaster Woo, possibly even from the same town. They knew each other well in a friendly rivalry sort of way. This points also to some form of what we know as san soo being practiced in China by other people."


There has always been differences of opinion regarding the origin of what is known as modern San Soo. However Parker knew most everyone including "James Woo" and had an influence on not only the martial arts in general, but the business of the martial arts in particular. San Soo's business model is/was the same as Parker's first martial arts initiated Arthur Murray Dance Studio Model, and continues to promote its very unique training perspective.


----------



## Jagdish

Doc said:
			
		

> There has always been differences of opinion regarding the origin of what is known as modern San Soo. However Parker knew most everyone including "James Woo" and had an influence on not only the martial arts in general, but the business of the martial arts in particular. San Soo's business model is/was the same as Parker's first martial arts initiated Arthur Murray Dance Studio Model, and continues to promote its very unique training perspective.



Sir:

I would like to ask you which will be the chinese name for splashing hands system taught by Master Ark Y.Wong.

Yours,

Jagdish


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Doc said:
			
		

> Typical of you you to chime in and take shots because someone's name is mentioned. I suggest you look like crap by my standards. I know its my opinion, just like you have one. Now what has been established? Nothing. I think if you have something negative to say about Edmund you call him up, instead of making such comments on a thread not even about him. It's almost as if you lie in wait for an opprotunity to always have something negative to say. Its getting old.


I didn't bring his name up, Bode did.    I've also told Edmund what I think of his Kenpo talent already, face to face.     Got anything else?   You can tell me at the end of May in person in San Diego, I'll have the pink gi and a big ear.


DarK LorD


----------



## Kenpobuff

Thank you all for the interesting comments related to the questions I originally posted.  I hope we can stay on topic on this forum and stop the attacks.

I really only wanted to know if anyone had seen this movie/documentary and what your thoughts were of the claims Mr. Lee presented regarding his JKD.  I'm curious if this was produced with the influence of Mrs. Linda Lee and is slanted to her interest in the continued commercialization of the Lee name.  Hence the lack of credit given to Mr. Parker and his influence on Bruce and the formulation of JKD.

Seems to me from the different posts and my own opinion is that Mr. Parker was the "chicken" and Mr. Lee the "egg".  Without one the other would not have been able to be "hatched" and grow to be the big colorful bird he turned out to be..

Any thoughts?

Steve Goemmel


----------



## Bode

> I didn't bring his name up, Bode did.


 Yes, I did, but  my comments were shifted to the topic of EP Jr skill. Read my previous response.

 The point is not whether or not he's good, but whether or not the statement established anything important in the context of this thread. If we want to discuss the skills of an individual then we should shift it to another thread AND invite said individual. Agreed? 

 Parker or Lee? I think enough has been said on this topic either way. I hope Kenpobuff's questions were answered.


----------



## Doc

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I didn't bring his name up, Bode did.    I've also told Edmund what I think of his Kenpo talent already, face to face.     Got anything else?   You can tell me at the end of May in person in San Diego, I'll have the pink gi and a big ear.
> 
> 
> DarK LorD


Sorry you're not invited.


----------



## Doc

Jagdish said:
			
		

> Sir:
> 
> I would like to ask you which will be the chinese name for splashing hands system taught by Master Ark Y.Wong.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Jagdish


Don't know. I never heard it referred to in any other way.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Doc said:
			
		

> Sorry you're not invited.


Hmm, I thought I was, better call Darin and find out now. Besides, aren't you the one always preaching about seeing and feeling what you do, and here I am, willing to be there and you say I'm not invited. Why is that?   I always tell my critics to come see and feel what I do, why do you not?


DarK LorD


----------



## Doc

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Hmm, I thought I was, better call Darin and find out now.    Besides, aren't you the one always preaching about seeing and feeling what you do, and here I am, willing to be there and you say I'm not invited.    Why is that?
> DarK LorD


Well, so there is no misunderstanding Mr. O'Briant, 

I have never ever met or spoke with you. My first contact with you was a number of years ago via an unsolicited negative e-mail you sent to me, when I casually observed on a forum that Larry Tatum, in my opinion, was the best example of what I termed "motion based kenpo" in a post.

In your e-mail response, you preceded to chastise me in a derogatory fashion and insisted I was not paying Larry a compliment. You further attacked me, my kenpo, and insisted that you had been doing SubLevel Four kenpo for a decade, and it was nothing special. You also pointed to a recent Black Belt Magazine article I did and used that as your negative example of my teachings. Additionally, you questioned my academic background and competency, and generally told me I didn't know what I was talking about, and that I had no credibility to have an opinon on the subject. According to you, Larry is THE authority on all subjects relating to any aspect of kenpo, and you need no outside references to understand your art. 

Clearly if you feel this way, there is no reason for you to attend any seminars, let alone mine. It is never my intention to attempt to supplant the teachings of Mr. Tatum intentionally or otherwise, or disrupt any students lessons with their teachers.

Most recently during a discussion on this forum, I was attempting to pass some information to posters and readers I felt was germane to the topic at hand. Your injected response was a simple one. You were not interested in anything I had to say, or ever obtaining any knowledge from me, and if you needed to know something, you knew where to get it, and it wasn't from me.

O'Briant on this subject as far as I'm concerned, it is my intent in life to see that you are a man of your word.


----------



## Bill Lear

TigerFist said:
			
		

> http://www.tracyskenpokarate.com/Kenpo%20vs.%20American%20Kenpo.htm
> 
> "Parker was promoted by Chow to 1st degree so that he could teach on the mainland. There is much speculation on whether his 3rd from Chow was real or forged due to the fact that Chow claimed he didn't talk to Parker after giving him a 1st degree black"
> 
> The story then goes that Parker, in 1964, went from 3rd to 6th Dan in a hotel room in Long Beach before the tournament because that would be the rank suitable for one hosting the tournament.


 Here's another interesting story: 





> Mary Ellen Tracy, known as Sabrina Aset to her flock, found herself in court for her unique teachings "...in which a man absolves his sins by having sex with church priestesses," (Forth Worth _Star Telegram_, 2 May 1990, sect. 1, p. 7).
> 
> After the men's sins are absolved by Sabrina Aset's rituals, "the men then leave a `sacrifice,' usually money..." (_Indianapolis News_, 9 Sept. 1989, p. A3).
> 
> Mary Tracy, "...testified that the church did not require `members' to give out their last names after receiving or inquiring about church services. She said the church in most cases only kept members' first names and phone numbers," (_Star Telegram_).
> 
> According to Mary Tracy and her husband, Wilbur, their church, The Church of the Most High Goddess, which boasts a membership of approximately, "2,000 male followers" is "...the oldest religion in the world, dating back to 3200 B.C. They said aspects of the religion are found on Egyptian scrolls," (_Indianapolis News_).
> 
> The Tracys explain, "...they formed the church after God instructed them to revive an ancient Egyptian religion...," (_Star Telegram_).
> 
> When asked about other priestesses in the Church, the Tracys said, "They are unable under current law to encourage women to become priestesses because the post requires that they first have sex with 100 men," (_Ibid_).
> 
> "Assistant City Attorney Bryon Boeckman said authorities believe the Tracys are using religion as a front for prostitution," (_Ibid_).
> 
> In Mary Tracy's own words, "I've always been very willing to do what God required, whether to be monogamous or to have sex with a few thousand men," (_Indianapolis News_).


Let me see... There are a few things here that bring your source's credibility into question.

(1). Will Tracy seems to be selling his wife.

(2). Will Tracy claims to recieve communications from god.

(3). Will Tracy and his wife are avoiding prosecution for prostitution by hiding behind the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.

It seems to me that this particular individual has some very deep seeded issues, and/or has a very big problem with telling the truth.


----------



## Jagdish

Doc said:
			
		

> Don't know. I never heard it referred to in any other way.



Sir:

I know there are other filipino and indonesian systems that employ some type of rebound when they engage their opponent's arm in order to  fastly make a second blow.

However, slapping oneself seems to be so *unique * (of course, applied appropiately) ...i read in a website that splashing hands came from Shaolin Temple...Do they really have this type of knowlege? It doesn't seem to be in any derived systems from shaolin.

Yours,

Jagdish


----------



## Doc

Jagdish said:
			
		

> Sir:
> 
> I know there are other filipino and indonesian systems that employ some type of rebound when they engage their opponent's arm in order to  fastly make a second blow.
> 
> However, slapping oneself seems to be so *unique * (of course, applied appropiately) ...i read in a website that splashing hands came from Shaolin Temple...Do they really have this type of knowlege? It doesn't seem to be in any derived systems from shaolin.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Jagdish


Actually I don't really know that much about its origin. As far as Chinese Interpretations go, its rather new and is said to originated around the end of the 1600's. 

This is the style that Parker drew his own unique methods from in the beginnig of his Chinese Kenpo, and in many ways he mimicked the Somoan Haumea Lefiti who trained under Ark Wong exclusively in Splashing Hands. To the untrained eye it looks a lot like "motion-Kenpo."


----------



## The Kai

There is a Sifu McNeil teaching the splashing hands system, of which he claim was the art taught to Shaoloin temple bodyguards-whether thast is the case or not??


----------



## Doc

The Kai said:
			
		

> There is a Sifu McNeil teaching the splashing hands system, of which he claim was the art taught to Shaoloin temple bodyguards-whether thast is the case or not??


In my opinion, I would say no. "Splashing Hands" was not that old, and was considered "modern street fight gung fu" in the fifties and sixties. Sometimes the corollation betwen it and motion-kenpo are uncanny. It didn't contain a great deal of the information of the "traditional Chinese Arts" but was very effective quickly.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:
			
		

> "Splashing Hands" was considered "modern street fight gung fu" in the fifties and sixties.
> 
> Sometimes the corollation betwen it and _*Kenpo*_ are uncanny.


  yeah...... Ed Parker's version is called "_Slashing Hands_"

  :whip:


----------



## Jagdish

Doc said:
			
		

> In my opinion, I would say no. "Splashing Hands" was not that old, and was considered "modern street fight gung fu" in the fifties and sixties. Sometimes the corollation betwen it and motion-kenpo are uncanny. It didn't contain a great deal of the information of the "traditional Chinese Arts" but was very effective quickly.



Sir:

From your post i deduct that  then there is more knowlege taught by  Master Ark Y.Wong to Master Parker.

Nerve Caivities and vital points then do not belong to splashing hands, right sir?

Yours,

Jagdish


----------



## Jagdish

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> yeah...... Ed Parker's version is called "_Slashing Hands_"
> 
> :whip:



OMG...
 ...you mean with iron shirt/hand training , right sir?


----------



## Doc

Jagdish said:
			
		

> Sir:
> 
> From your post i deduct that  then there is more knowlege taught by  Master Ark Y.Wong to Master Parker.
> 
> Nerve Caivities and vital points then do not belong to splashing hands, right sir?
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Jagdish


In general, correct.


----------



## Jagdish

Doc said:
			
		

> In general, correct.



 :supcool:      


Yours,

Jagdish


----------



## donald

I have seen this system name in print, but know nothing of it. Is it really a foundation of Epak? I think its kinda kewl to trace some history, and appreciate those who can lend a hand. Thanks for the insights,Doc,G7, et al...

By GOD'S Grace,
Donald 1st John 1:9


----------



## SwedishChef

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Here's another interesting story: Let me see... There are a few things here that bring your source's credibility into question.
> 
> (1). Will Tracy seems to be selling his wife.
> 
> (2). Will Tracy claims to recieve communications from god.
> 
> (3). Will Tracy and his wife are avoiding prosecution for prostitution by hiding behind the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.
> 
> It seems to me that this particular individual has some very deep seeded issues, and/or has a very big problem with telling the truth.


Sounds like Tracy should hang out with Chong Su Nim "Iron" Kim.


----------



## SwedishChef

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> It was not a Sport. Until 1980s. Wu Shu was used by the Chinese Actors in Kabuki for many years before 1980


He may have meant chinese opera.  Jackie Chan and Jet Li got their training there I believe.


----------



## Sigung86

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Here's another interesting story: Let me see... There are a few things here that bring your source's credibility into question.
> 
> (1). Will Tracy seems to be selling his wife.
> 
> (2). Will Tracy claims to recieve communications from god.
> 
> (3). Will Tracy and his wife are avoiding prosecution for prostitution by hiding behind the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.
> 
> It seems to me that this particular individual has some very deep seeded issues, and/or has a very big problem with telling the truth.




Better watch it Billy!  Talk like that will get you kicked out of the association, and deleted from the extremely accurate Tracy family tree. 

 :whip:  :whip:  :whip: 

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:


----------



## Doc

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> Better watch it Billy!  Talk like that will get you kicked out of the association, and deleted from the extremely accurate Tracy family tree.
> 
> :whip:  :whip:  :whip:
> 
> :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:


So Dan really is alive. I knew that rumor was false.


----------



## Sigung86

Doc said:
			
		

> So Dan really is alive. I knew that rumor was false.



Hi Ya Doc!

Yeah I'm still alive, mostly I just read anymore, but I thunk I'd better protect young William from the HAMMER OF DIS"***"OCIATION.    :ultracool 

BTW ... Congratulations on an apparent Tour D'Force in the UK.

Next time we talk, ask me about my BaGwaZhang and XingYiChuan.  Resetting the front foot, and anatomical alignment and like that.... 
 :supcool:


----------



## Bill Lear

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> Better watch it Billy! Talk like that will get you kicked out of the association, and deleted from the extremely accurate Tracy family tree.
> 
> :whip: :whip: :whip:
> 
> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


The Tracy's can't kick me out of something I was never a part of, and I'm not worried about their tree. It seems they're doing a fine job cutting it down all by themselves. Besides, they've kinda missed the forest for the trees haven't they? There's a whole world of martial artists out there that we can learn from, while they continue to issolate themselves.

:uhyeah:


----------

