# Pivoting question



## Xinglu (Mar 11, 2010)

Hey all, I have a question regarding pivoting in Yongchun/Wing Chun.

It was brought up in the Kenpo/Kempo section and I was wondering how you guys approach this.

Here is the link to the thread.  I know how we do it in  the Neijia arts, but there seems to be some confusion as to how ya'll do it.

Is it done on the heel or the ball?  If the heel, do you keep yongquan connected to the ground by sliding the ball of the foot or do you not keep it connected?

Any input is appreciated.


----------



## vankuen (Mar 11, 2010)

Some pivot on the ball of the foot, some heel, and some from the "center" of the foot.  

Hope that helps to murk up the water a bit for ya.  Welcome to our world!!!  lol


----------



## David Peterson (Mar 11, 2010)

In the WSLVT system, we advocate pivoting on the *heel*, maintaining contact with the ground with the whole foot during the action, *never* lifting the toes and then replacing them on the ground. In this way, the body remains very stable, like a fast-spinning top, as opposed to turning on the balls of the feet, whereby your balance is constantly shifting and causing you to actually move *away *from the target, when in fact the aim should be to remain close enough to strike with full power and remain *closer *to the target. Hope this helps 
DMP


----------



## mook jong man (Mar 11, 2010)

In the TST lineage we pivot on the centre of the feet with a slight gripping action of the toes to increase the surface area of the foot.

Hello David from fellow Aussie , big thrill to have you on here , look forward to picking your brains in the future if you don't mind.


----------



## geezer (Mar 11, 2010)

vankuen said:


> Some pivot on the ball of the foot, some heel, and some from the "center" of the foot.
> 
> Hope that helps to murk up the water a bit for ya. Welcome to our world!!! lol


 
Quite right, and whatever our lineage does, we all agree that _everybody else is wrong!_ LOL


BTW, although my lineage (Yip Man, to _He-who-must-not-be-named*,_ to me) turns on the center of the foot, I alone have learned the true secret of pivoting on the center of my right, and partially on the ball of my left (depending on my shoes). This is the one and true and correct method. I learned it following a serious inury which partially fused my left ankle. Now if I was an old-school Chinese sifu, would I insist that all my students with perfectly healthy ankles turn exactly the same way? I'm thinking... probably _yes. _Just for the fun of watching them struggle like I do.

*What? You didn't know that _Lord Voldemort_ claimed to be Grandmaster Yip Man's last "closed door" disciple?


----------



## chisauking (Mar 11, 2010)

Well, you guys asked for a WSL representative.....

Unlike me, a half breed (a bit of this, a bit of that) David is a true representative of the WSL way.

To my knowledge, he's been travelling half way round the world to pass on his knowledge. Where's I struggle to string along a meaningful sentence -- without upsetting half the forum members -- David is a very good communicator, edvident by his many excellent articles & DVDs.

If you guys have any questions regarding WSL and his method, this is the gentleman to ask.

Nice to see you here, David.


----------



## geezer (Mar 11, 2010)

Welcome aboard, David. Great to have a knowledgeable person to explain things from the WSL perspective. --Steve (aka Geezer)


----------



## David Peterson (Mar 11, 2010)

Thanks for the welcome, guys....I'll try to offer the occasional post here if I think that I can contribute something useful 
DMP


----------



## Xinglu (Mar 11, 2010)

Thank you gentlemen, great replies. 

David, this is helpful. You maintain grounding of yongchun, ergo from a neijia perspective there is no contradiction.  I will pass this thread on to the guys in the Kenpo/Kempo group.


----------



## Xinglu (Mar 11, 2010)

Xinglu said:


> Thank you gentlemen, great replies.
> 
> David, this is helpful. You maintain grounding of yongchun, ergo from a neijia perspective there is no contradiction.  I will pass this thread on to the guys in the Kenpo/Kempo group.



Correction yongquan not yongchun! You do yongchun, but the point is yongquan.  LOL


----------



## melry88 (Mar 13, 2010)

Hi guys...

Here is something to think about since each lineage will say something different.

You do pivot on both the heels and balls at one time or another throughout the system.  Either Hong Kong or Mainland China lineages will do both.  Look at the opening to Ip Man's Sil Lim Tao you pivot on the heel and then on the ball of the foot during the opening to the forms.  

Also you will find going through learning how to apply techniques to the jong that occasionally pivoting on the ball will create a better angle.  

Take a look also at your training during Lok Dim Boon Gwan if you look hard enough you will see a pivot on ball of the foot. 

I have been told, but have not started to learn that both Bil Gee/Bak Jom Dao will also be teaching you to pivot on the balls of your feet.

Pivoting on the ball of the foot also allows for a rapid stance change.

From what I have been told that in Ip Man's lineages that you first learn solid rooting and pivoting not truly on the heels, but for the sake of one or the other we will say the heel verse the ball of the foot.  Then as you progress you learn to start pivoting closer to the balls of the feet which was left for a more advanced students or concepts.

I hope this helps and as everyone here will agree one way is not always the "right" way.


----------



## turninghorse (Mar 13, 2010)

> you pivot on the heel and then on the ball of the foot during the opening to the forms


I concur.

One pivots on the heels when it is time for heel pivoting, and on the toes when it is time for toe pivoting. And by toe I do mean the tarsal-metatarsal joints. Too much innuendo if said the other way.


----------



## profesormental (Mar 14, 2010)

Greetings.

In my case, after careful consideration, study and experimentation, I have concluded to move away from pivoting on the heel.

I would rather pivot on the ball of the foot, or just lift the foot up (lifting the knee), reposition it, and plant it with a bit of emphasis on the heel, similar to a stomp. When the heat is on, the lift is very small; a few centimeters.

In short, it is because of the specific applications and consideration of anatomical mandates for optimal structure, 

i.e. it has worked easiest and bestest for me and my students, and is explained convincingly by my current knowledge and experience of human kinesiology, and that of my teacher, who led me in this direction.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado-Robles


----------



## Poor Uke (Mar 14, 2010)

If I'm at the WC kwoon then always on my heels 

Personally though I find pivoting on the balls of my feet easier, quicker and find it generates more power.

Although I have found that in a clinch pivoting on the heels can be very effective.

I'm not a fan of pivoting aorund the centre of the foot, for me it causes too much unessecary stress on my knees as well as introducing uneeded friction.


----------



## geezer (Mar 14, 2010)

David Peterson said:


> In the WSLVT system, we advocate pivoting on the *heel*... as opposed to turning on the balls of the feet, whereby your balance is constantly shifting and causing you to actually move *away *from the target, when in fact the aim should be to remain close enough to strike with full power and remain *closer *to the target. Hope this helps
> DMP



Over the years I've worked in two WC lineages. The first advocated simultaneous foot pivoting on the heels, while the second system (the one I've remained with) advocates using the _center of the foot_. I also work with an eskrima group that does some similar footwork using the balls of the feet. I believe all three can be effective, although each method has certain advantages.

On the other hand, I don't agree with you statement that pivoting on the balls of the feet_ "moves you away from your target"_. What moves you away from your opponent is _shifting your center of gravity._ If your system favors a 50-50 weight distribution then pivoting doesn't move your body much to either side, regardless of how you do it. If you pivot on your toes, you may see a bit of a shift, but only an inch or so--depending on your posture. By contrast, if you strongly weight the rear leg using a 70-30 distribution, or a nearly 100-0 distribution (as in the system I train) you will see a dramatic side to side movement when pivoting. This does increase the distance between you and your target... but _that can be a good thing_. If your opponent is driving forward with a lot of force, we use our pivot to absorb the force and slip aside, going off-line like a bullfighter out of the path of a charging bull. With this line of thought, the ultimate objective is to borrow the opponent's force, _letting him make your pivot and press you aside_ like a bent spring. Now if you are stronger and faster than your opponent, you might not bother with this.

As for _Poor Uke_, the trick to turning on the center of the foot is the weight shift. This method is works well with the systems like WT which advocate a total weight shift (nearly 100% on the rear leg) and a sequential (one leg at a time) pivot rather than a simultaneous pivot. With this method, you shift your weight to the side, and then turn the unweighted foot, eliminating the friction problem. When turning from side to side the legs flow in sequence with the unweighted leg starting the motion, turning into YGKYM and the other leg picking up the motion and turning out as your weight flows across to the other side. The movement is fluid like a wave. Also, the turn is motivated by the knee... not the foot. Rather like the elbow turning the arm in bong-sau, the knee turns the leg here, and this really reduces joint stress. On the other hand, if you do not turn with a strong weight shift, that is if you prefer a 60-40 or even 50-50 approach, I would not recommend this method.

BTW _David_, after reading your post, I actually went over and set up my stance in front of a spot on the wall, extended my arms pointing at the spot, and tried various methods of pivoting to check out the whole distance thing. The observations above seemed to hold up, or else the walls are moving again... in which case I'm going to have to seriously adjust my drinking habits. --Steve


----------



## Vajramusti (Mar 14, 2010)

Greetings from a list newbie.
Thanks to Steve F. for bringing this list to my attention.This is my first post after being approved.The list seems to better than some others. With different points of view ,civil discussions can keep a check on egotism.I recognize some names from a more muddled list.

In the way of a new member introduction:

I speak for myself and do not speak for my sifu (Augustine Fong) or sigung (Ho Kam Ming)though I respect them both-immensely. I take my own lumps for errors of commission, omission and list participation.I have been doing wing chun continuously since 1976. I have done or dabbled in some other martial arts and activities before that and since then. I am originally from India but have been an American for quite some time. I have worn some other hats including some academic ones- but wing chun is my love.

Now for the thread topic:

IMO- often folks don't distinguish between "development" routines and "application" in a practical situation. In developing pivoting, for me the heels in a coordinated way assist in the chor ma-chum kiu turns- so I can relate most easily to David P's concise but clear post. Once an efficient turn on the body's axis is internalized- one can do what is efficient from a wing chun perspective in specific problematic situations and when the context is other than pivoting in chum kiu level of training..

joy chaudhuri
Tempe Wing Chun
www.tempewingchun.com


----------



## chisauking (Mar 14, 2010)

Nice to see you here, Joy.

This forum is very civil, with very nice people -- so I don't know why I'm here, lol. Reminds me of the Marx brothers sketch! (If a club accepts me)

I'm just praying Terrence & that nutcase knifefighter don't find this forum -- yikes, the thought makes me cringe, lol.


In regards pivoting....I don't know what's the big deal. Juen-ma a million times and you will JUST do it. In doing, one will find their balance & centre, distance. Oh, I forgot, most people don't bother with forms.


----------



## geezer (Mar 14, 2010)

Welcome aboard, Joy. I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective on the issues that come up here. --Steve (aka "Geezer")


----------



## Vajramusti (Mar 15, 2010)

Thanks Chisau King and Geezer. 
joy c


----------

