# Close them Off vs. Open Them Up



## JP3 (May 1, 2017)

Generalized You vs. Opponent scenario, terrain is open and not an issue.

What is your tactical preference between the two choices of:

A) Closing the opponent off from you, meaning you are trying to get behind one of his arms so that you are directed "at" him/her, while he/she is pointed "away" from you; or

B) Opening them up, i.e. getting in between their arms, in the interior position so that you may easily attack their front centerline?

Which do you prefer and why? Oh, and by the way, how do you like to put that into play?

Thanks. Minor research project.


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## CB Jones (May 1, 2017)

Lot of variables?

Left/right handed?

What is his money punch?  Straight right/left hook/roundhouse kick/etc...

Grappler?


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## JP3 (May 1, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Lot of variables?
> 
> Left/right handed?
> 
> ...


OMG dude, really?

Fine. Here are some specifics so you can go all "Lab" for me.

He's 5'11" and 200 lbs, you know he's got some BJJ but think it's not So good, but you know he's both been in karate for maybe 8 years and has done some amateur boxing with his dad, who used to be really good, when he was a teenager. He's about 32 now and got in a fight with his wife and headed out to the bar to seek out a fight and you happen to run into him in the parking lot and you decided you didn't like his face so now it's "on."

That help?

So,  oh wait, he's right handed but because of his dad's influence he prefers to fight southpaw.

So, are you going to get into some theory for me to pass the time or not? Sheesh.... c'mon man.


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## CB Jones (May 1, 2017)

JP3 said:


> OMG dude, really?
> 
> Fine. Here are some specifics so you can go all "Lab" for me.
> 
> ...



I sneak up and hit him in the back of the head with a cue stick........Boom, Jones-itsu-who-hit-u strikes again


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## CB Jones (May 1, 2017)

JP3 said:


> OMG dude, really?
> 
> Fine. Here are some specifics so you can go all "Lab" for me.
> 
> ...



Ok, seriously

I like a southpaw stance myself and like working to my right away from his power hand (right hook Im assuming) behind a stiff right jab using my height advantage.


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## JowGaWolf (May 1, 2017)

JP3 said:


> He's 5'11" and 200 lbs, you know he's got some BJJ but think it's not So good, but you know he's both been in karate for maybe 8 years and has done some amateur boxing with his dad, who used to be really good, when he was a teenager. He's about 32 now and got in a fight with his wife and headed out to the bar to seek out a fight and you happen to run into him in the parking lot and you decided you didn't like his face so now it's "on."
> 
> That help?
> 
> So, oh wait, he's right handed but because of his dad's influence he prefers to fight southpaw.


8 years of karate doesn't say much. You can only factor that he knows how to punch and do higher than waists kicks.  If he know BJJ then that's going to be an issue. You should be able to tell which system he favors by the way he stands.  Grapplers and Strikers move differently, they move according to either striking or grappling.  Different footing and stances are need to execute different strikes and certain  grappling entries.  If he got into a fight with his wife to come after the me then I'm going to use my ability of conversation to bring up how women are a pain in the neck.  I'm going to do my best to turn my possible fight night into a vent about women night.  I weigh 200 pounds and train regularly.  If I saw someone else who weighs as much as I do, then I'm going to assume that they don't train as much as I do.  This would give me an opportunity to use my endurance to my benefit.  If I can keep my distance then I may be able to wear him down.   If I'm a butt then my first goal is to affect his mobility right away with a couple of mean strikes.  Once I put a dent in his mobility then I'm going to affect his breathing a little more.  If I can impair his ability to be efficient in those 2 areas then I win the fight provided that he doesn't have a gun or some other weapon.

The boxing would probably be the biggest issue but that can quickly be address by attacking a person's mobility.  I can fight right or left so it doesn't matter what stance a person is in or what stance I'm in.    The level of damage that I would cause will depend on how much danger I think I'm in.


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## Headhunter (May 2, 2017)

I'll do either depends on whatever's open


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## Buka (May 2, 2017)

Standing - B. Unless or until A presents itself.
Downed - A


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## Gerry Seymour (May 2, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Generalized You vs. Opponent scenario, terrain is open and not an issue.
> 
> What is your tactical preference between the two choices of:
> 
> ...


In general, I prefer closing them off. I like to get just behind a shoulder - what I sometimes call the "creepy position" (because you can whisper creepy stuff in their ear). From there, I have a lot of grappling and striking options, and they have few. If I can't make it that far back, I'll still usually prefer being outside that arm. It reduces their weaponry in most of the same ways, and I really like beating on floating ribs and temples.


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## drop bear (May 2, 2017)

I do both at once. Head off center. Strikes through the center line. Then strikes tend to follow the head out off center untill he readjusts. Then head off center again.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2017)

JP3 said:


> B) Opening them up, i.e. getting in between their arms, in the interior position so that you may easily attack their front centerline? Which do you prefer and why?


To be able to control my opponent's head and separate his arms away from his body is always my goal.

Why? Your arms are always stronger than your opponent's neck.

1. Principle:







2. Training:






3. Competition:


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## JP3 (May 3, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I sneak up and hit him in the back of the head with a cue stick........Boom, Jones-itsu-who-hit-u strikes again


Hilarious, but sidesteps my based in boredom inquiry.

So, the imaginary you runs around assaulting people in parking lots from behind... and has a habit of carrying pool cues into inappropriate environments? Interesting.


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## JP3 (May 3, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I'll do either depends on whatever's open


Cop out, mano.... What do you "try" to make open? Which way would you move or manipulate to get... where?


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## JP3 (May 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In general, I prefer closing them off. I like to get just behind a shoulder - what I sometimes call the "creepy position" (because you can whisper creepy stuff in their ear). From there, I have a lot of grappling and striking options, and they have few. If I can't make it that far back, I'll still usually prefer being outside that arm. It reduces their weaponry in most of the same ways, and I really like beating on floating ribs and temples.


We all sort of assumed you were reepy, dude... and there you go and just ruined whatever mystery was left.

That location has a name, the being right behind the attacker's arm/shoulder, but I like "creepy place" too.


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## Headhunter (May 3, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Cop out, mano.... What do you "try" to make open? Which way would you move or manipulate to get... where?


How would I know it all depends on the situation and what's available. You can't say exactly what you'd do because there's far to many possibilities in a fight


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## JP3 (May 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I do both at once. Head off center. Strikes through the center line. Then strikes tend to follow the head out off center untill he readjusts. Then head off center again.


Sound basic tactical advice for striking engagement in initial stages of fight, but doesn't actually answer my question. Go behind the lead arm or step offline into the open space where their centerline is available (groin, belly, solar plex, throat)?


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## Tony Dismukes (May 3, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Hilarious, but sidesteps my based in boredom inquiry.
> 
> So, the imaginary you runs around assaulting people in parking lots from behind... and has a habit of carrying pool cues into inappropriate environments? Interesting.


He calls it Jones-itsu-who-hit-u, but it's really just an unauthorized rip-off of Llap Goch.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 3, 2017)

I prefer both if possible. A is my higher priority, but sometimes it's easier to get B first. If I do get B, I like to start working angles so I have both the inside control and the superior angle.

My opponent's stance, tactics, and movement style generally determine which option is more available.


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## CB Jones (May 3, 2017)

Also, if I have the size advantage I feel more comfortable working down the center between his arms but if I have a size disadvantage or I know he is a good grappler I want to work outside his arms


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## Danny T (May 3, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Generalized You vs. Opponent scenario, terrain is open and not an issue.
> 
> What is your tactical preference between the two choices of:
> 
> ...


I tend to be aggressive in your face tactically. However, I go with what is given so have no preference.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 6, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> How would I know it all depends on the situation and what's available. You can't say exactly what you'd do because there's far to many possibilities in a fight


Ah, but he didn't ask for exacts. He asked for preferences.


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## Andrew Green (May 6, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Cop out, mano.... What do you "try" to make open? Which way would you move or manipulate to get... where?



I think the reason you are getting a hard time is the answer is always "depends".  It's like asking a person if you are playing rock-paper-scissors which do you play?  Sometimes its best to get on the inside, other times it's best to get on the outside.


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## drop bear (May 6, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> I think the reason you are getting a hard time is the answer is always "depends".  It's like asking a person if you are playing rock-paper-scissors which do you play?  Sometimes its best to get on the inside, other times it's best to get on the outside.



Sissors.


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## drop bear (May 6, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Sound basic tactical advice for striking engagement in initial stages of fight, but doesn't actually answer my question. Go behind the lead arm or step offline into the open space where their centerline is available (groin, belly, solar plex, throat)?



I strike through the middle but move to the outside.


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## CB Jones (May 6, 2017)

Dynamite blows up scissors


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 6, 2017)

If you think

- you are better than your opponent, you enter through his front door.
- your opponent is better than you, you enter through his side door.

By using "arm drag", you can switch from one to another.


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## CB Jones (May 6, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you think
> 
> - you are better than your opponent, you enter through his front door.
> - your opponent is better than you, you enter through his side door.



And if you are fighting with prison rules you enter through his........never mind.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 6, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> And if you are fighting with prison rules you enter through his........never mind.


If you can get to your opponent's "side door", you can get to his "back door".


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## CB Jones (May 6, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can get to your opponent's "side door", you can get to his "back door".



Well this got awkward


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 6, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Well this got awkward


The following terms are commonly used in wrestling.

Front door - space between your both arms.
Side door - space on either side of your arms.
Back door - space behind you.


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## JP3 (May 7, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I strike through the middle but move to the outside.


Gotcha. Sound, imo. Of course, Wang's inside route is sound, too, assuming he gets there fastest with the mostest. Being inside in front is devastating when in control.


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## JP3 (May 7, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> I think the reason you are getting a hard time is the answer is always "depends".  It's like asking a person if you are playing rock-paper-scissors which do you play?  Sometimes its best to get on the inside, other times it's best to get on the outside.


Andrew, I get that everyone is trying to reduce my theoretical inquiry into preferred method to an actual tactical problem.  I'm really only after preference, what you/they would prefer to do if given the opportunity or you/they can manufacture the opportunity.

DropBear's succinct response was what I'm after. As is Wang's. Different thought processes for both of those guys,and both are good for them. People are different, think different, build different, plan different, fight different.  I am after the What and why...

It's an interesting conversation to have, the finding out of people's preferences in what they do, and relating that back to their art/arts, length of practice time in years, etc.


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## JP3 (May 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In general, I prefer closing them off. I like to get just behind a shoulder - what I sometimes call the "creepy position" (because you can whisper creepy stuff in their ear). From there, I have a lot of grappling and striking options, and they have few. If I can't make it that far back, I'll still usually prefer being outside that arm. It reduces their weaponry in most of the same ways, and I really like beating on floating ribs and temples.


The Japanese term for that spot... it was bugging me all week last week.  I could not remember for the life of me what the term is for that. I called JW, but he didn't answer. I called Nick Lowry,a nd he knew what it was I was taking about but he's developing old-timers like me as well, so he suggested I call Patrick Parker. Pat is a good guy, and a great teacher, and Nick considers him to be the encyclopedia of all things Japanese arts.

The term is shikaku, meaning "the dead angle."  I don't know if dead angle means if the person is at that angle to you, you're dead, or what, but it seems appropo.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 7, 2017)

JP3 said:


> The Japanese term for that spot... it was bugging me all week last week.  I could not remember for the life of me what the term is for that. I called JW, but he didn't answer. I called Nick Lowry,a nd he knew what it was I was taking about but he's developing old-timers like me as well, so he suggested I call Patrick Parker. Pat is a good guy, and a great teacher, and Nick considers him to be the encyclopedia of all things Japanese arts.
> 
> The term is shikaku, meaning "the dead angle."  I don't know if dead angle means if the person is at that angle to you, you're dead, or what, but it seems appropo.


That's a term I've never heard before. Now I have a new word to use with folks who use the Japanese terms! And it's a sufficiently creepy term, too.


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## JP3 (May 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's a term I've never heard before. Now I have a new word to use with folks who use the Japanese terms! And it's a sufficiently creepy term, too.


You can say it creepily, like out of the corner of your mouth, mumbling...shikaku...shikaku...


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## drop bear (May 7, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Gotcha. Sound, imo. Of course, Wang's inside route is sound, too, assuming he gets there fastest with the mostest. Being inside in front is devastating when in control.



So long as you are throwing effective punches. And effective can be kind of tricky. If they cover or counter you should be moving.

Lots of guys get knocked out or taken down because they get too ambitious in that middle position.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 7, 2017)

JP3 said:


> You can say it creepily, like out of the corner of your mouth, mumbling...shikaku...shikaku...


I told my wife that exact thing after I read your post. She agreed that "dead angle" is sufficiently creepy, too. So, at a school where they don't use Japanese terms, whispering "dead angle" has a very nice creepiness factor.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 7, 2017)

drop bear said:


> So long as you are throwing effective punches. And effective can be kind of tricky. If they cover or counter you should be moving.
> 
> Lots of guys get knocked out or taken down because they get too ambitious in that middle position.


Yeah, and I have problems there sometimes. I can get oddly linear (not even angular, just linear) when I'm sparring with someone less skilled. I think I pay too much attention to what they are seeing, rather than my own sparring. And I get hit a lot more than I should in those situations because I sit in that middle position too much. And I'm getting slower on my changes and less able to change levels as my knees get worse, so I can't recover from that error like I once could.


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## drop bear (May 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, and I have problems there sometimes. I can get oddly linear (not even angular, just linear) when I'm sparring with someone less skilled. I think I pay too much attention to what they are seeing, rather than my own sparring. And I get hit a lot more than I should in those situations because I sit in that middle position too much. And I'm getting slower on my changes and less able to change levels as my knees get worse, so I can't recover from that error like I once could.



It is really common. Because you think you are winning and can go a bit crazy.


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## JP3 (May 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, and I have problems there sometimes. I can get oddly linear (not even angular, just linear) when I'm sparring with someone less skilled. I think I pay too much attention to what they are seeing, rather than my own sparring. And I get hit a lot more than I should in those situations because I sit in that middle position too much. And I'm getting slower on my changes and less able to change levels as my knees get worse, so I can't recover from that error like I once could.


A guy with whom I used to train called it, fighting right down the other guy's gun barrel.

Not really something I like to do. I'd rather, very much rather, attack the "gun" in this metaphor, coming in laterally alongside the trigger.


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## Danny T (May 13, 2017)

JP3 said:


> The Japanese term for that spot... it was bugging me all week last week.  I could not remember for the life of me what the term is for that. I called JW, but he didn't answer. I called Nick Lowry,a nd he knew what it was I was taking about but he's developing old-timers like me as well, so he suggested I call Patrick Parker. Pat is a good guy, and a great teacher, and Nick considers him to be the encyclopedia of all things Japanese arts.
> 
> The term is shikaku, meaning "the dead angle."  I don't know if dead angle means if the person is at that angle to you, you're dead, or what, but it seems appropo.


Have never heard the term 'shikau' but the 'dead' angle' I know as being in a position relative to the opponent where it is very difficult for him/her to continue their attack while being easy for you to control their balance or movement. It is more of a tactical principle of positioning rather than a specific position.


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## JP3 (May 13, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Have never heard the term 'shikau' but the 'dead' angle' I know as being in a position relative to the opponent where it is very difficult for him/her to continue their attack while being easy for you to control their balance or movement. It is more of a tactical principle of positioning rather than a specific position.


While I agree, I need to ask you if you've found other positions that "fit" besides Gerry's creepy place behind the arm/shoulder?


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## thanson02 (May 18, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Generalized You vs. Opponent scenario, terrain is open and not an issue.
> 
> What is your tactical preference between the two choices of:
> 
> ...



My preference is to go to their outside/back side if possible.  Plenty of targets available and I am more of a counter fighter anyways.  If you stay to their inside, you increase your chance of getting hit.  That and I am a tall guy, so I can take advantage of my limbs reach that way.

I know that my wife is the opposite.  She is shorter so she likes to use hit and run tactics by blitzing in to her opponents inside, get a few shots off, and then get out.

Both work and a lot of it has to do with your strong points in relation to your opponents.  It also has to do with what strategy makes the most sense in your head.


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## Martial D (May 19, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Generalized You vs. Opponent scenario, terrain is open and not an issue.
> 
> What is your tactical preference between the two choices of:
> 
> ...


That's an easy one. In any system, it is ideal to be where you can hit them but they can't hit you. Outside gate all day long.


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## Ryan_ (Apr 22, 2018)

JP3 said:


> OMG dude, really?
> 
> Fine. Here are some specifics so you can go all "Lab" for me.
> 
> ...




Right now, I would have to open them up - It's a much stronger trait for me right now than closing them down, but in future when I have more practise closing down this opinion could be completely opposite what it is right now.


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