# Tai Chi as a combat art pt 2



## Streetfigher2006 (Oct 16, 2006)

Hi all,

I just want to start by saying sorry to all the members of the forum for my comments about Tai chi not being a valuable or/and useable self-defence art. Again my comments were not written to try and belittle the wonderful of taichi it's just I don't understand the art enough perhaps. If I can get posters to post their opinions and experiences I could probably get a better idea of how effective/useful the art is as a whole and how well it fairs against other arts be it traditional or mixed martial arts.

I am in a bit of a rush because I have to get some work done. I may make a few mistakes while typing. a few questions that have been at the back of mind is. bare in mind these are questions aimed at people that have had the experience/ or used TC(tai chi) for their protection

1) How effective is TC (tai chi) against the common street criminal?
2) how effective is TC against a trained fighter?
3)how long does it take to be efficient enough to use it on the street?
4) Does tai chi have techniques for multiple attackers? if yes have you been able to use them

please keep this a civil discusion and refrain from flaming.

thanks

SF2006


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## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2006)

You probably are not going to get many clean answers here, because they don't exist.  Tai Chi is difficult to understand, most who do it do not understand it, and that goes for those who are "teaching" it as well.

that being said, understand that in the hands of one who really understands it, and who has really developed their ability with it, it is absolutely devastating.  But you won't find these people in your run of the mill "Bob's School of Tai Chi".

It is effective, and it addresses all aspects of fighting.  It is useful against a street thug, or a trained fighter, but it does take a long time to reach that ability, and most never do.  It takes a competent teacher, and those are rare.  It takes a huge commitment to training, and those willing to do so are rare.

Poorly done Tai Chi is absolutely worthless in a fight, and it will get you killed if you think you can use it.

You may never get a chance to witness Tai Chi at a high level, and for combat.  But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  It's OK to doubt it, as in most cases your doubts are probably well founded.  But don't think it is all like that.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2006)

I wanted to add another thought here:

Tai Chi Chuan should be among the rarest of martial arts.  It is so rare to find a teacher who truly understands it and can teach it effectively.  And for a student to also reach a high level is a rare event.  A good teacher could teach many students in his career, but only a handful will become truly accomplished in tai chi.  Many more will *think *they are, but it's not true.

But instead the art has become among the most common, at least in some areas.  The health aspect is touted, and since "teachers" of the health aspect don't need to prove their fighting skills, it has become accepted.  I would say that many of these teachers for health don't even understand it on that level.  But you can't prove it decisively, so they just carry on and the art becomes more diluted.  And more common.  And extremely commercial.

Practically every gym of YMCA or other athletic/health-minded facility has a tai chi "teacher" on staff.  It's what the masses want, so that's what they give them.  But it's really a mess and in most cases not worth your time.


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## The Kai (Oct 16, 2006)

I may never get a chance to see the Yeti or the Loch ness monster either!!   So therefore they must exist as well?


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## TaiChiTJ (Oct 16, 2006)

One of my favorite sites to learn about tai chi and the other neija arts is Mike Patterson's Hsing I site. would hazard an opinion that Mike knows how to fight with tai chi. 

Here is a bit of Mike's bio: 

ShrFu Patterson was the _All Taiwan Full Contact Martial Arts Champion in 1975-1976_, an all inclusive contest open to all styles and all ranks. He was the youngest champion ever in the history of the event and retired undefeated. He has since trained Numerous World, International and National Full Contact Champions himself. He served as the _West Coast Regional Director_ of the United States Chinese KuoShu Federation from 1996 to 2001 and now serves as a special advisor for the same organization on the internal martial arts, he was _Mens Coach of the 1996 World Team U.S.A._ Inside Kung Fu Magazine chose him as _The 1997 Coach Of The Year_, having trained so many successful Full Contact KuoShu Fighters for competition. He has trained a total of 25 World, International, National and Regional Chinese KuoShu Full Contact Champions between the years of 1994 and 2000. He retired from this venue of coaching at the end of the year 2000 (at least for the present) to focus more time into teaching and disseminating these internal disciplines. He has served as consultant for military, law enforcement and professional athletics programs.

He has an extensive collection of video clips online from the instructional tapes he markets. He teaches a chen family style of tai chi he calls small chen and the video clip has him explaining the applications of the first few moves of it. 

He has opened a school in Las Vegas. 

Lucky residents of Vegas, eh?

http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/index.html


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## TaiChiTJ (Oct 16, 2006)

By the way, Mike Patterso has also invented a condensed system of training  using internal principles derived from the neija arts he calls RSPCT, I think. 

http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i_journal/RSPCT.html


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## Streetfigher2006 (Oct 17, 2006)

Hi again,
Just read some of the comments. Hopefully more will be coming in real soon. OK so I just have another question that i thought of. Having read some of the responses Flying Crane came up with an interesting point about finding an authentic teacher of the art of Tai chi. Well my question is where are alll the good teachers at? I  was reading an article about someone who traveled to the Chen Village which is where supposedly the art of Tai chi was born. I am travelling to China net year and will probably visit this place if I can. Is there authenic taichi here?


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 17, 2006)

Where's XS when you him. heh.


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## pete (Oct 17, 2006)

michael, thanks for putting so much out there for me to respond to... hope you don't mind me quoting as such, but,,, well, here goes:



Flying Crane said:


> You probably are not going to get many clean answers here, because they don't exist. Tai Chi is difficult to understand, most who do it do not understand it, and that goes for those who are "teaching" it as well..


 i'd venture to say this is true for most, if not all martial arts... at least those i've had exposure to.



Flying Crane said:


> that being said, understand that in the hands of one who really understands it, and who has really developed their ability with it, it is absolutely devastating. But you won't find these people in your run of the mill "Bob's School of Tai Chi"...


 ditto.  replace the words 'tai chi' with kenpo. see...




Flying Crane said:


> It is effective, and it addresses all aspects of fighting. It is useful against a street thug, or a trained fighter, but it does take a long time to reach that ability, and most never do. It takes a competent teacher, and those are rare. It takes a huge commitment to training, and those willing to do so are rare."


 hmmm, i detect a pattern. 'tai chi' / 'kenpo' 

*** note: huge commitment sometimes means SEEKING OUT that competent teacher, rather than going to the closest guy in town, although some get lucky! ***



Flying Crane said:


> Poorly done Tai Chi is absolutely worthless in a fight, and it will get you killed if you think you can use it..


 whoa, not again! sam ting... only the tai chi guy will probably know down deep that his stuff is useless and actually may surprise himself in altercation... the kenpo guy may likely err on the side of overestimating his ability, or even arrogance

** note, kenpo used only as example because of my personal background and experience in that art ***



Flying Crane said:


> You may never get a chance to witness Tai Chi at a high level, and for combat. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's OK to doubt it, as in most cases your doubts are probably well founded. But don't think it is all like that.


 exactly!  



Flying Crane said:


> ... the art has become among the most common, at least in some areas. The health aspect is touted, and since "teachers" of the health aspect don't need to prove their fighting skills, it has become accepted. I would say that many of these teachers for health don't even understand it on that level. But you can't prove it decisively, so they just carry on and the art becomes more diluted. And more common. And extremely commercial..


 health practitioners beware. if you are not learning the martial, you are not getting the lion's share of health benefits.  



Flying Crane said:


> Practically every gym of YMCA or other athletic/health-minded facility has a tai chi "teacher" on staff. It's what the masses want, so that's what they give them. But it's really a mess and in most cases not worth your time.


 usually the case, but sometimes there is a diamond in the rough. 

pete


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## charyuop (Oct 17, 2006)

I am sorry I am not one of those who used Tai Chi to save my butt...but after all an opinion is accepted by every MA player without him/her having had to save their butt using their MA....don't see why a Tai Chi player can't.

All said here so far is true, but we as always keep going to the mythology field. True, some people might never get to feel the Chi, some people will never learn how to use it, some people will be lacking of the right relaxation and so on...
I personally (unfortunately) don't train the MA part of it, but I take into deep consideration the applications for what is called "intent".
I playingly used some Tai Chi movements with a friend (an Aikido guy) and some of them came out pretty good (remember I never train MA so I lack of reflex, instinct and correctness in application). Do I feel Chi? Heck no and probably never will. Could have I hurt the guy in few occasions? Heck yes.
Correct Tai Chi is based on Chi, but if you learn the movement very well with their application and you learn about your body and how to keep always a very good balance, they work even with muscolar strength.
As per Vs against another trained fighter...depends on level of training and personal skills.


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## Streetfigher2006 (Oct 18, 2006)

Does anyine know anything about my question of chen village?


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## Flying Crane (Oct 18, 2006)

Streetfigher2006 said:


> Does anyine know anything about my question of chen village?


 

The Chen Village is the headquarters of Chen style tai chi, which is considerered to be the original system, and more oriented on fighting.  I've never been there, but I know that people do visit there to train.  I don't know how much they teach to visitors, esp. if you are a complete beginnner, but if you are going to China and get the chance, definitely visit Chen Village.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 20, 2006)

Chen is the root family and I would not suggest going to Chen village and picking a fight if that helps answer yor question.

I believe it is one of the first postures of the majority of Chen forms Buddhas attendant pounds mortar sorry I may have the name wrong here. 

There is what appears to be a heel stamp and I have been told Chen family members can crush small stones with that. 

But I have not seen it with my own eyes and I could tell you who told me but I would likely get accused of dropping names.


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## Shrewsbury (Oct 20, 2006)

I was trying to stay away from this, but here I go.

First off if you think you can go any where, including china and have some one share "real" tai chi with you, you are sadly mistaken, you are an outsider and will be treated as such. does this mean they are rude and won't do anything? no, but they will never reveal what the art is truly like.
also if you think some one is more legit because they are in or from china, wake up, that is nonesense, more "fake" masters come from china than just about any where else.

Tai chi is not based on chi, or "secret" methods, but on correct core principles that can only be learned by experiencing, this is why most iron shirt is external, to go through the process of learning iron shirt internally you must be struck countless times for many years.
when core principles are honed and understood the movement becomes effortless, the skeletal and muscular systems align, and circulation improves, thus promoting longevity. because the body must be relaxed to move correctly, the older you get the better you are, and this is where the myths arrive from.

how about the 60 year old, 5'3", 140 pound person being able to hit you and send you acrossed the room? or be able to throw you with no effort and is faster than you? are these myths? I will tell you first hand, no they are not. can people use tai chi for combat? better than you could ever imagine.


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## charyuop (Oct 20, 2006)

Shrewsbury, sorry English is not my first language and I might not understand your point fully here. What you mean when you say understand the "core"? You say Chi is not the main thing (and I agree with that, coz I am 100% sure Tai Chi is effective also with muscular strenght) and you say the form will come out good on its own once you own the core.
Ok, if you take away Chi and form, what is left to understand???
Sorry, I might have just misunderstood your words...


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 20, 2006)

Shrewsbury said:


> First off if you think you can go any where, including china and have some one share "real" tai chi with you, you are sadly mistaken, you are an outsider and will be treated as such. does this mean they are rude and won't do anything? no, but they will never reveal what the art is truly like.
> also if you think some one is more legit because they are in or from china, wake up, that is nonesense, more "fake" masters come from china than just about any where else.


 
Yes and yes. Take that a step further; many of the legitimate masters out of China that come here do not take Americans seriously either. So you need to prove yourself to them as well if you really want to learn the style.



Shrewsbury said:


> Tai chi is not based on chi, or "secret" methods, but on correct core principles that can only be learned by experiencing, this is why most iron shirt is external, to go through the process of learning iron shirt internally you must be struck countless times for many years.
> when core principles are honed and understood the movement becomes effortless, the skeletal and muscular systems align, and circulation improves, thus promoting longevity. because the body must be relaxed to move correctly, the older you get the better you are, and this is where the myths arrive from. .


 
 Core principles? Could you please explain this a bit more?

I agree with what you are saying here, I am just not sure what you are defining as core



Shrewsbury said:


> how about the 60 year old, 5'3", 140 pound person being able to hit you and send you acrossed the room? or be able to throw you with no effort and is faster than you? are these myths? I will tell you first hand, no they are not. can people use tai chi for combat? better than you could ever imagine.


 
Actually he was 65 and 55 tall and probably 140 lbs give or take. Or at least that was my experience. Oh and a 50 year old about 56 I believe, also fairly thin, but he also dropped me with Qinna. Both are Chinese. But to give the US a plug I also got hit rather hard, with little effort on the hitters part, by a 55 tall American CMA teacher as well. I won't include the American CMA teacher that damn near knocked me out with Xingyi becuase he is taller than me.


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## davemitchel (Oct 20, 2006)

I am not the great expert, but from what I understand the Traditional Yang form as passed down from Yang Cheng-fu via Fu Zhong Wen, Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo teaches the martial aspect. This includes: 
_*Barehand *Taiji Solo Sequence, Applications from the Solo Sequence, Fast Taiji training, Still Meditation, Qi Circulation Training, Jin Training, Pushing Hands and its Applications, Taiji Fighting Set and Deeper Martial Applications, Taiji Free Pushing Hands and Sparring._
*Taiji Sword *_Taiji Sword Solo Sequence, Qi Enhancement and Extension Training, Martial Applications, Matching Forms, Sparring._
*Taiji Saber*_Taiji Saber Solo Sequence, Martial Applications, Matching Forms and Sparring._
*Taiji Spear and Staff *_Individual Spear and Staff Martial Techniques, Sticking and Matching Practice, Long Weapons Sparring_
*Taiji Ball *_Listening and Understanding Jin Training, Adhere-Stick Jin Training, Qi Enhancement and Extension Training, Two-person Taiji Ball Training._

I will be joining a dojo in my area shortly which teaches T'ai Chi for combat. Just busy checking their credentials.  How effective it is? I don't know, but I believe it will be.

Dave


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 20, 2006)

davemitchel said:


> I am not the great expert, but from what I understand the Traditional Yang form as passed down from Yang Cheng-fu via Fu Zhong Wen, Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo teaches the martial aspect.


 
The lineage depends on which student of Yang Chengfu you are talking about. And there is another lineage from Yang Banhao (chengfu's uncle) but it is very rare, the only example I have seen of this so far is Yang Jwing Ming's Yang style (he is not related to the Yang Tai Chi family however)

Yang Chengfu/Kwan Sai Hung/etc

Yang Chengfu/Tung Ying Cheih/the rest of the Tung Dong Family

Yang Chengfu/Tung Ying Cheih/Sifu Chu (this is my lineage)

Yang Chengfu/Cheng Manching/CC Chen (and I have trained a bit here too)

Yang Chengfu/Yang Zhenming/Yang Zhendao

Yang Chengfu/Yang Zhendao

Yang Chengfu/Yang Zhenming/Gin soon chu/Vincent Chu

There are many of them out there that are legitimate.

As to the curriculum, that sound right, but there are various types of push hands


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## Shrewsbury (Oct 21, 2006)

Tai chi like any martial or health system is based on core movement and principles. Forms and technique can vary, because they are just movement, but core principles are the key to any art. Once core principles are understood they can be applied to anything, anything, thus making any art internal, now of course more often than not it changes the look and feel of things because the basics have been changed.

when one has started to incorporate these principles, the body begins to blend with its surroundings, and is able to naturally use the surrounding "energy" such as solar, gravitational, magnetic, and other natural forces, this brings a strange feeling, because we have not experienced this before and also the ability to increase longevity and makes each movement corect so we can transcend style or system, this is where the "magic" of chi was born, it is the only explanation one could come up with to explain what was going on, it is like describing love, though you can go into much detail, it is really only known when experienced and only understood when embraced.

now some one at this stage really doesn't look like a specific style practitioner and often doesn't look impressive, but once you have experience their ability, you will know what they are capable of, but I must admit, many people, even after first hand experiencing, will be in denial, it seems to simple, to unreal, and will use things such as mind control or illusion as reasoning, rather than realizing perhaps they should change their martial path to reach higher levels of martial skill, many are to arrogant to do this, they would rather be the "master" than the student and have created a situation where they have really not reached their true potential, and this is why the arts have been watered down so badly, because people usually want the easy way out.

Core principles would include many basics thing, now each one of these have many levels, so don't be fooled by their simple appearance.

But some of the core principles would include,

relaxation
single weight
whole but seperate movement
angle
distance
continuos movement
blending
yeilding
seeking forwardness

again each of these few principles have many layers of understanding, with relaxation perhaps being the most intricate. the ability to relax can always improve, always, this alone makes the internal arts a life art.


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## charyuop (Oct 21, 2006)

Shrewsbury said:


> when one has started to incorporate these principles, the body begins to blend with its surroundings, and is able to naturally use the surrounding "energy" such as solar, gravitational, magnetic, and other natural forces, this brings a strange feeling, because we have not experienced this before and also the ability to increase longevity and makes each movement corect so we can transcend style or system, this is where the "magic" of chi was born, it is the only explanation one could come up with to explain what was going on, it is like describing love, though you can go into much detail, it is really only known when experienced and only understood when embraced.


 
It is against Tai Chi, but you can't imagine the feeling I have had reading this description.....ENVY!!!!!!!!!!!
From a reading I had once...
A student asks his Master: "Master how long it will be till I can feel the Chi flowing within me?". The MAster tried to give an answer to this difficult question: "I can't tell you exactly, it depends on the person and his way of understanding and practicing...it might be 2 or 3 years, but it is not sure." Then the student came up with a quick solution: "Yes, but Master if I train very hard continuosly, I put all my will and strenght in it how long will it take?" and the Master answered: "10 years".

I am like that student. I am skeptical, but hearing all people talking about the Chi makes me wanna feel it NOW and the lack of the feeling sometimes brings a certaincy of never been able to feel it.
Gladly most of the times I manage to get back into the right path


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## Streetfigher2006 (Oct 21, 2006)

Thanks for the heads up Shrewsbury. I also had a feeling that if I went to Chen Village they wouldn't except me and wouldn't teach me real tai chi. But I still think it would be cool to see the village even if I don't learn real tai chi in the end.
​


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## davemitchel (Oct 21, 2006)

Xue Shen,

It is Yang Jwing Ming's Yang style. The dojo I am joining is a YMAA Dojo. Hope that answers the question.

Dave


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 21, 2006)

Shrewsbury said:


> Tai chi like any martial or health system is based on core movement and principles. Forms and technique can vary, because they are just movement, but core principles are the key to any art. Once core principles are understood they can be applied to anything, anything, thus making any art internal, now of course more often than not it changes the look and feel of things because the basics have been changed.
> 
> when one has started to incorporate these principles, the body begins to blend with its surroundings, and is able to naturally use the surrounding "energy" such as solar, gravitational, magnetic, and other natural forces, this brings a strange feeling, because we have not experienced this before and also the ability to increase longevity and makes each movement corect so we can transcend style or system, this is where the "magic" of chi was born, it is the only explanation one could come up with to explain what was going on, it is like describing love, though you can go into much detail, it is really only known when experienced and only understood when embraced.
> 
> ...


 
Throw in the 8 doors and the 5 directions and I agree with almost all of this. 

I mean no offense or disrespect but the only thing I disagree with is the magic of Qi part. Qi comes from Traditional Chinese medicine not Tai Chi or CMA practice. 
 
Thank you for responding.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 21, 2006)

davemitchel said:


> Xue Shen,
> 
> It is Yang Jwing Ming's Yang style. The dojo I am joining is a YMAA Dojo. Hope that answers the question.
> 
> Dave


 
Yang Jwing Ming is teaching Yang style but not the Traditional Yang Style that the Yang family currently teaches and most are use to seeing. What the Yang family currently teaches is from Yang Chengfu, who changed the family style to what it is today. Yang Jwing Ming's Yang style comes from pre-Yang Chengfu. It is from Yang Chengfu's Uncle Yang Banhou. He learned it in Taiwan from I believe a teacher named Kao Tao, but I am not 100% sure of his teacher's name. 

The Yang Banhou style Yang style is rare. He taught it to Yang Chengfu's older bother Yang Shaohou and few others, he did not like teaching much and Yang Shaohou was a very hard teacher and also had few students. He is alleged to have killed at least one in a fajing demonstration. 

Chengfu was a better teacher and liked to teach so his version lives on. 

One more thing, Yang jwing Ming is not related to the Yang Tai Chi family as far as I can tell. But his Tai Chi, Kung Fu and Qinna are very good.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 21, 2006)

Streetfigher2006 said:


> I also had a feeling that if I went to Chen Village they wouldn't except me and wouldn't teach me real tai chi. But I still think it would be cool to see the village even if I don't learn real tai chi in the end.​


 
Actually they will teach you real Tai Chi. But you can also learn real Tai Chi in the USA, you just have to look for the right school.

They will not teach you all of the style nor will any other Tai Chi family, some things are reserved for family and inside students.

But it depends first on you making arrangements with them to go train with them. You cannot just show up and say Hi I'm here from the US teach me real Tai Chi I got a couple hours to kill. 

They want to see commitment; 6 months there is a start. There are at least 2 Americans that have been to Chen village studied there for a long time and learned real Chen Style Tai Chi. One is on the East coast and one is on the west coast. There may be more.

But if you are convinced before you even get there that they will not teach you and you approach them with that attitude they will not teach you. From their perspective you are just wasting their time. 

Also if you do make arrangements to go there and train it is likely a Chen family member will not train you at first but their advanced students. Once again you are not proven and they do not want to waste their time.

Many Americans want a quick fix and to be accepted as a true student and if they are not immediately brought in and shown how to fight then it isn't real or it doesn't work. And believe me the Tai Chi families know this so they tend to not teach us unless we prove it is worth their time.


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## Streetfigher2006 (Oct 21, 2006)

Xue Sheng, thanks for the reply. I do realise and appreciate that they will not teach me everything about Tai chi chuan. I mean there are cetain things in my family and secrets that we keep within ourselves and we dont tell anyone not even a very close friend. But at least if they show me most or a decent amount for self defence than I am alright. Also I do appreciate I need to spend a good amount of time in the village to learn a decent amount. I am young (21yrs). I was actuall planning to stay in the village for a year during school leave after I complete university. May be abit longer if it doesn't get in the way of my career prospects.

I don't live in America. I live in the United Kingdom and I can't find any "authentic" Tai chi teachers in my area. When I say "Authentic", I mean teachers that teach TJC for self defence purposes.

thanks


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 21, 2006)

Streetfigher2006 said:


> Xue Sheng, thanks for the reply. I do realise and appreciate that they will not teach me everything about Tai chi chuan. I mean there are cetain things in my family and secrets that we keep within ourselves and we dont tell anyone not even a very close friend. But at least if they show me most or a decent amount for self defence than I am alright. Also I do appreciate I need to spend a good amount of time in the village to learn a decent amount. I am young (21yrs). I was actuall planning to stay in the village for a year during school leave after I complete university. May be abit longer if it doesn't get in the way of my career prospects.
> 
> I don't live in America. I live in the United Kingdom and I can't find any "authentic" Tai chi teachers in my area. When I say "Authentic", I mean teachers that teach TJC for self defence purposes.
> 
> thanks


 
Cool. 

Sorry for the USA comment, that got me into trouble once before here on MT, I should have said Westerner.

Last time I talked to anyone about training at Chen village it was, I believe $2000 (American) for a year or 6 months, the amount of time part I do not remember. However that included room, board, and training and Chinese language lessons. 

Also there is a senior student of Chen Zhenglei in England, I do not remember where exactly, I will have to look it up. I also believe he was a long time student in Chen village. 

There is also another guy that trained in Chen village in Manchester I believe

Liming Yue
http://www.taichicentre.com/masterliming.php

I cannot vouch for what they teach or how complete it is I do not know them. There are also a couple of other Chen Zhenglei groups in England, but I do not know them either. 

Once I find the other guys name I will post it.


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## Shrewsbury (Oct 22, 2006)

> Throw in the 8 doors and the 5 directions and I agree with almost all of this.
> 
> I mean no offense or disrespect but the only thing I disagree with is the magic of Qi part. Qi comes from Traditional Chinese medicine not Tai Chi or CMA practice.



As stated I was only nameing a few of the principles of tai chi, there are many more and as stated each have many layers, including relaxation, stillness and movement, and continuos movement, these take on a whole new meaning later on.

though qi is not the real goal of the internal martial arts they are product of their correct practice, this i sbeyond a doubt.

when stating "the magic of qi", i was referring to what most think of qi, to me qi is hardly magical, nor is it a seperate enity, it is a state of being and has many levels.

TCM has many layers, qi gong being anly a small part, herbs, qigong, massage, and accupuncture make the 4 pillars of TCM, it is the blend of these four that make it a holistic approach. TCM does not creat chi, nor does qigong, i hear many speak of building qi, storing qi, expressing qi , and the like, but to me, ( and I know this may cause some great disagreement) qi a state of being, not a power to be summoned, you can improve your awareness of it, but not build nor store it, you can feel its presence more by being more aware of your total being, but you can not "build" it.

what some would term as a "miracle healing", "religuos healing" or "qi healing" is actually just reaching a state of awareness that causes remission of the desease, now whether this state is brough n by GOD, Qi, Spirits, or the Self is not my place to state such things, I can only state, my opinions based on what I have experienced.

Qi is certainly present in the internal martial arts, not for reasons you may think. they are not the cause of the art or what some one should desire to achive, but rather it is a bi-product of the practice of relaxation and correct alignment in movement of the mind body and what ever else you may beleive exsists. the way qi is presence in the martial arts is not a secret power or foreign power that can be shot out of ones limbs or body, nor is it an invisible sheild protecting us, it is simply a state of awareness / understanding, of how we react to and with our surroundings, being able to understand and blend with the natural energies that affect us in life, such as gravity, magnitism, solar based properties, balance, leverage,  and many other things.

I respect your opinion and I certainly do not claim to  be be right in any one elses eyes besides my own,  but qi, as I beleive it exsists, is certainly present in the internal martial arts, as well as many forms of qi and nei gung.

again this is said with all due respect and good intentions.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 22, 2006)

Shrewsbury said:


> As stated I was only nameing a few of the principles of tai chi, there are many more and as stated each have many layers, including relaxation, stillness and movement, and continuos movement, these take on a whole new meaning later on.
> 
> though qi is not the real goal of the internal martial arts they are product of their correct practice, this i sbeyond a doubt.
> 
> ...


 
We do not disagree and I have more exposure to real TCM than you would probably expect a typical westerner to have. In China it is thought of no different than we think of medicine in the US. It is just another medical option to the Chinese and there are certain things it handles better than western medicine and there are certain things western medicine handles better than TCM. Any TCM doctor (OMD) trained in TCM in China will tell you that.  

I do not think Qi is magic. Basic TCM if you have strong Qi you are healthy, if you have weak Qi you are sick if you have no Qi you are dead. 

And the production of Qi is not what I was talking about, I just was just saying that the definition of Qi does not come from the internal MA. 

And yes there is considerably more to Internal Martial Arts than Qi and if I have given you the impression that I believe people are capable of shooting Qi bullets from their hands and knocking people down at a distance, I apologize, nothing could be further from the truth. I have always maintained that any so called Qi master that knocks people down with only his Qi has successfully done one thing taught his students how to fall down.

And to be honest as far as Qi is concerned I currently agree more with Yang Jwing Ming than the magic Qi people and I am also trying to equate it to Western Anatomy and Physiology. Believe me I do not call it magic nor do I believe it is. I also do not believe its presence makes anyone superior, since we all have it. To me it is simply energy that is all.  

But I believe this is taking the post off topic, sorry


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## Shrewsbury (Oct 22, 2006)

My post was not directed at you, nor did you give the impression of magical or shooting qi from your body, i was just making staements based on what many think of qi, i beleive you are not the typical.



> And to be honest as far as Qi is concerned I currently agree more with Yang Jwing Ming than the magic Qi people and I am also trying to equate it to Western Anatomy and Physiology. Believe me I do not call it magic nor do I believe it is. I also do not believe its presence makes anyone superior, since we all have it. To me it is simply energy that is all.



there are many doing this, and it is a good thing. the translation of chinese to english is quite perplexing and leaves much to be desired. there are too moany who are caught up in the "qi" and forgoing the "chuan".

again my post was not directed to you nor meant to challenge anything you said or didn't say, it was just my opinion.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 22, 2006)

Shrewsbury said:


> My post was not directed at you, nor did you give the impression of magical or shooting qi from your body, i was just making staements based on what many think of qi, i beleive you are not the typical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
No problem, I didn't take it as a challenge, I just wanted to make sure I was not sounding like a Tye Chee hippy

If I had taken it as a challenge I would have had to build up my Qi and start shooting qi energy balls


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 22, 2006)

To Streetfigher2006

Student of Chen Zhenglei in England

Wang Haijun
Traditionally trained in Chen Village in Henan
http://www.wanghaijun.com/


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## dmax999 (Nov 4, 2006)

My thought is people who like to fight and spar don't like Tai Chi.  Those who like Tai Chi don't like to fight and spar.  This is generally the case and reason that so many Tai Chi people can't fight, but not always the case.

How many classes of Tai Chi have you had where the exercise is to have someone throw realistic, non preplanned attacks at you to defend?  How often do you practice you attacks on a heavy bag?  How often do you do free form sparring?

While some will have done the above, almost every Tai Chi school does not.  That is why so many think Tai Chi is not useful.  If you train Tai Chi in a realistic way and follow the correct rules you will see how effective it can be.

China has no secrets to Tai Chi, masters have no secrets to Tai Chi.  People good at it just train better then the rest.


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## Streetfigher2006 (Nov 5, 2006)

dmax999 said:


> China has no secrets to Tai Chi, masters have no secrets to Tai Chi.  People good at it just train better then the rest.



I wish this were true, but there are certain secrets most martial arts that us westerners will never know or understand unless they are taught to us.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 5, 2006)

dmax999 said:


> My thought is people who like to fight and spar don't like Tai Chi. Those who like Tai Chi don't like to fight and spar. This is generally the case and reason that so many Tai Chi people can't fight, but not always the case.
> 
> How many classes of Tai Chi have you had where the exercise is to have someone throw realistic, non preplanned attacks at you to defend? How often do you practice you attacks on a heavy bag? How often do you do free form sparring?


 
I have not had the opportunity to do this for a long time because  many in Tai Chi no longer want this and that to me is a very sad thing.



dmax999 said:


> While some will have done the above, almost every Tai Chi school does not. That is why so many think Tai Chi is not useful. If you train Tai Chi in a realistic way and follow the correct rules you will see how effective it can be.
> 
> China has no secrets to Tai Chi, masters have no secrets to Tai Chi. People good at it just train better then the rest.


 


Streetfigher2006 said:


> I wish this were true, but there are certain secrets most martial arts that us westerners will never know or understand unless they are taught to us.



Actually what dmax999 is saying about the training in China is, for the most part, true.

In China they train 5 to 7 days a week with a sifu and if they do not practice they are kicked out. They train very hard as do many in the US but they have the benefit of having the Sifu there with them as they do where we in the US do not. 

Are there secrets that the Chen family only keeps for the family? Likely.  But it does not mean you will not go there and train hard and learn a true CMA. 

But you can go to the parks in any major city and China and just learn the form for health with no MA. You can also learn MA there, it is just those people are harder to find. 

If you go to Beijing and go to a good Yiquan sifu and dedicate the proper time to yiquan you WILL leave a good martial artist and any secrets the sifu may or may not withhold are really not much to worry about in this case. 

But in many training situation in China you also have to understand if you come form the West they are not entirely sure you are truly serious about CMA and you will possibly need to prove to them that you are. I recently talked to a couple of guys that training Bagua and Xingyi in Beijing and I am fairly certain they are learning the real deal. The training is not easy and it is traditional. If you go there and the Sifu insists you need to be able to stand in San Ti Shi for 30 minutes or he does not feel you are serious then if you want to learn from that Sifu you will train and learn to stand in San Ti Shi for 30 minutes. If you don't he will not waste his time teaching you because to him you are not serious.

And to be honest if you go to a Xingyi Sifu in Beijing that tells you that San Ti Shi is unnecessary I suggest run don't walk and find another Sifu.


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## dmax999 (Nov 6, 2006)

I agree with most of what Xue Sheng said.

I have talked to those who have been to Chen village on multiple trips.  The claim I heard is they train Tai Chi very hard, but do not practice fighting with it.  In other words they can be beaten by westerners who do practice in contact sparring.  I can't claim this is true, but its what I have been told.  I was also told it is still worth visiting, just don't expect the super Tai Chi Masters to be there, but they are probably the best in the world at the forms (Which is some people's focus)

The reason "secrets" are kept from you is because you are not capeable of understanding them.  If you try to teach beginners this will become painfully obvious.  The teachers that demand 30 minutes of San Ti probably just don't think its worth their time to teaching the beginning stuff.  They have taught Pi Chun 1000 times and are sick of making the same corrections.  It is not because they have secrets they want to hide from you.

Just my opinion after years of training.  Feel free to disagree!


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 7, 2006)

dmax999 said:


> I agree with most of what Xue Sheng said.
> 
> I have talked to those who have been to Chen village on multiple trips. The claim I heard is they train Tai Chi very hard, but do not practice fighting with it. In other words they can be beaten by westerners who do practice in contact sparring. I can't claim this is true, but its what I have been told. I was also told it is still worth visiting, just don't expect the super Tai Chi Masters to be there, but they are probably the best in the world at the forms (Which is some people's focus)
> 
> ...


 
But I don't want to disagree 

I cannot dispute the Chen village stuff. The people that I have dealt with or know of that have been there also train with other long time Chen family students so it may be that they learn their fighting outside of Chen village. 

The only Tai Chi style I have been involved with that seemed to talk about fighting and applications and work on applications early in the training was Cheng Manching style from William CC Chen (Not the Chen tai chi family). All others take a long time to get there. I have also heard that the Tung/Dong family also gets into actual applications and fighting as well. I have trained with a student of Sifu Tung and he is or was big on application but he is not a member of the Tung/Dong family. 

Chen Zhenglei is very skilled at fighting I am told, but he does not teach it to his students in the US. Also it is my understanding that Chen Xiaowang is also skilled but does not teach it in the US. Xiaowang does have a senior student in the US who I am told does teach fighting and application however. 

Sadly Tai Chi is being taught less and less as a true MA by the families. This is not because they can't it has more to do with the students they get. Face it they make more money teaching it for health than they would fighting. To get to fighting; first takes too long and second hurts. 

It is my understanding though that in general if you find a true Zhaobao style Tai Chi teacher that they will teach it as a martial art. Zhaobao is the only tai chi I have seen that trains 1 leg push hands too. But it must be a "True" Zhaobao teacher. I have only seen one so far that claim Zhaobao lineage that truly does not have it, does not know the fighting side of it, but his form is amazing. So even in Zhaobao things are starting to change. But the few real Zhaobao people I have talked to fight.  

As to the San Ti Shi, I never meant to imply they were keeping secrets. I was basically saying that if a student is not willing to listen to them early on and train San Ti Shi as they want the student to, then they have no reason to think that student is serious and they do not wish to waste their time because, as you said, they have taught Pi Chun 1000 times and are sick of making the same corrections. 

My reason for bringing up Xingiquan and Yiquan is because if one is interested in learning an internal CMA and fighting you are more likely to find it there. This is not to say a good Baguazhang teacher will not teach you fighting, I just have little experience of Bagua in China but according to the few I have talked to that train it there they to can fight.


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## East Winds (Nov 7, 2006)

Streetfighter2006,

As always Xue Sheng is spot on. Wang Haijun, Leming Yue, or the Koskubas (Karl and Eva) are all trained by the Chen family(Chen Zheng Lei and Chen Xiaowang and also invite them over to the UK teach. Check out their websites for seminars).

I have worked very briefly with all these UK teachers and can recommend them all without hesitation.

Very best wishes


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## Streetfigher2006 (Nov 7, 2006)

OH my goodness. I nearly forgot the most important question to ask. Does Tai chi have a Chin na(pressure point) system intergrated into the style?

Thanks I almost forgot to ask.


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## dmax999 (Nov 7, 2006)

Actually let me go a little off the path of the theories of "True" Tai Chi.

Tai Chi has some basic principles.  Such as keep relaxed, don't fight force with force, keep spine straight, etc.  There are actually no real secrets in it, the only thing close would be forms that the families keep to themselves.

If you look at CMC, and William CC Chen, it is possible to believe they are true fighters with Tai Chi.  Neither of them are part of any offical family lines either.  That means, to me at least, it is possible to become an effective MA fighter using Tai Chi without being accepted as part of a family line.  If you go to a William CC Chen seminar he will keep no secrets from you at all.  The only information you will miss are pieces of information that are beyond your skill level.

It has been my experience, from numerous schools, that "secrets" are a way for a teacher to keep students when he really has nothing to offer them.  Its usually a scam, right along with "This is the only school that teaches the real version of this MA" (I've walked out of a school that pulled this line on me after spending years there, they were full of it and that was the last straw for me).


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 8, 2006)

Streetfigher2006 said:


> OH my goodness. I nearly forgot the most important question to ask. Does Tai chi have a Chin na(pressure point) system intergrated into the style?
> 
> Thanks I almost forgot to ask.


 
Chin na (Qinna) is joint locking and muscle and tendon tearing and yes Tai Chi has Qinna

*EDIT:* Chin na (Qinna) - http://www.answers.com/topic/chin-na


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