# Sparring



## Master of Blades (Jan 9, 2003)

I noticed in Judo Kids thread that there was a load of differant views for Sparring and so on. Does your style do sparring and if so what kinda sparring is it? And if it doesnt do it then why not, how else do you find out if it works in combat? What are your own personal versions of sparring as well?

In Kali we do a little sparring with the Padded Sticks, me and my Teacher tried it with the normal Escrima sticks but gave up after our forearms where black and blue, which is fun and allows us to try out all the locks and defenses while really whacking the other guy. Its stings but when you do Kali for long enough your arms are really pretty tough. My personal version of sparring is simple. One of one, first to tap loses. Only rules I use is no full contact to the face or balls and when the person taps you let go immediantly. I dislike the point sparring stuff for no real reason other then tapping is more satisfying and a lot more even sided. Say a kicker goes up against a grappler in point sparring, the kicker has the advantage of the distance AND the fact that he can get points while the grappler cant on the floor. Thats my opinion anyway. Oh yeah, I also have another rule. The winner is the winner, no bad losing and NO losing your temper. :asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 9, 2003)

I haven't actually sparred in quite a while. The sparring class is on a different night than my regular class. I do believe though as much as I hate to admit that point sparring does have merit. Sometimes you do need the game of tag. This develops fast reflexes, quickness in striking and so forth. I orignally came from a school where there wasn't any point sparring until much later on. We trained in a garage with gloves and foot pads. When you started you were under the impression if someone came out bloody then, well that just happened. There were black eyes, bloody lips, very few broken bones but this seperated who was to stay and who wouldn't. I also like the ground fighting until someone taps out.


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## sweeper (Jan 12, 2003)

I don't think there are any "hard" rules except don't try to cause realy dammage and if you do it they will do it back. most of the time we do stand up sparring with boxing gloves, rules usualy decided by the fighters, most common rules are no feet no shots to the head both of the above or all in fighting, we use sparring more as a drill or perhaps a training tool to target weaknesses than as an all out competition, we don't realy have winners or loosers, when someone goes down or taps we break and start over, when someone is to tired they sub out and someone elses either takes their place or a two new figters come in. We also do two on three and two on one and two on two, 2v3 is to help they 2 develop teem work when outnumbered, 2v2 is just teamwork, 2v1 is help the 1 develop better movement and periferal vision. There is also a sort of  "gentelmen's rule" of no kicking the groin..  it actualy isn't so much a rule but a derivation of the second rule stated above.. no one wants to get hit in the groin so no one trys to give their opponant a reason to do so, but at the same time accidents always happen  side step an upward thai kick in the wrong direction and you will have a ring shaped bruis from your cup


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## Astra (Jan 12, 2003)

Generally we do Lat-Sao where you get to try out most everything you have learned with no hard punches done - light contact or tapping. Then once or twice a month we put on head and fist protection and just go after eachother. (Though we use feet, knees, elbows AND fists  ) Suggestably not go after breaking someones ribs with a knee kick etc, but you often have quite a few black spots after it and minor damage. We wear cups doing it and the plexus and neck are off limits.


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

My rant on sparring, First off i am tired of this TMA stuff where they end up saying sparring dosnt prove anything because on the street its diffrent there are people there are weapons and objects which get in the way.  First off what TMA or MMA can really deal with a gun (NONE).  Also no martial art is really ment for multiple oppents.  Lets just face the facts more then 2 and your in pritty deep water.  Also if MMAs had lost in the UFC the TMA would use it to promote it self over MMA arts as MMA has done to Promote itself Over TMA.  Some TMA do work and do have full sparring but some dont.  People say Sparring dosnt prove anything,  What dos, What would people like a full contact fight with people carrying weapons do they really think they will do better then people that do MMA.  With out sparring there is no way to truely test your skills without going in a real life or death situation.  So befor you spout stuff please try sparring out for your self.  The true way to test your system is to fight people at the top of your system then fight people that are out of your system.   This my 4 cents.  If you really believe without testing your skills and system your ready for the street you are some day gonna get a rude awaking.


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

You need NHB sparring to test your self.  Be real take the test and beat the best.  Also three step sparring isnt real sparring at least to me.


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

Forgot to mention my veiws on point sparring.  
Its a ok way to spar yet it truely isnt the test NHB is the real way. Point sparring dosnt truely work the same as regular NHB sparring because you are aiming at a goal that isnt really testing your skills at much not to mention the rules keep it safe and alot of the adereilin is not added in to the mix. Like in judo sparring there are rules that make so you cant strike and things like that.  which is in all point sparring systems like TKD.  

Trust me get a little bit of gear (or dont) and do some Full contact sparring you will be glade you did.


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

Ahh on first post i meant cant deal with a gun, It says can but i meant cant.


Also so people say this.  Sparring dosnt prove anything because there are gloves and rules and protection.  If thats the way you spar realize that is because you want to be able to do it the next day.  Also You can have No rules No equipment and on pathment if you want to make it realer and bite the bullet.  

But i usally like to spar Medium with some gear Mouth piece and UFC style gloves to avoid cutting my oppents face and vice versa.

Also its a good idea to use a cup.

Knee pads and Shin guards are all up to you like elbow and head gear.

I go with the basic gloves and mouth peice if anything.  

But if i had to go with rules i would say no eye gouging because it can be painful and blinding.  But you can do that as well, I know in mexico a cop was talking with me about how they pay martial artist and street thugs to fight it out to the death for 20 grand.
Thats some crazy **** but they also have real under ground fight clubs around.


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

I do indeed like to spar because of sparring i was able to under stand what kind of stuff happens in fights.  It was a real eye opener the aderinlin dump and everything.  I found i had a real talent in fighting and really injoy it.  I only really like fighting other fighters that are skilled.  I think Judo and grappling tournments are fun like wrestling. Pritty much i injoy all conbat sports.  Pankration/UFC is my favorite.  But i will injoy reading what you guys think.


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## bart (Jan 12, 2003)

> First off what TMA or MMA can really deal with a gun (NONE).



If you think of the gun from a distance of more than two feet, then you're right. Nothing to do but military style: "I am up...the enemy sees me...I am down...the enemy sees me...I am up...etc. in a zig zag fashion and hope not to get blown away. 

But if you're within grappling distance then you have a chance. At that range, it's a weapon like any other, except it can only do damage in one direction. If you can control the weapon and attack with other parts of your body while staying out of the line of fire, then you will be all right. 



> Also no martial art is really ment for multiple oppents. Lets just face the facts more then 2 and your in pritty deep water.



Dead wrong. You just haven't come across it. I've dealt with multiples on more than one occassion and my TMA (Wing Chun) helped me through. Those were real life situations. They got hurt, I didn't. Talk to your teacher about it or read some books or better yet, work with some friends on it. You do some sparring NHB style. Work with more than one person and do it intelligently and you will see. But if that fails, ask people who know and then work on it some more on your own. In grappling it will be tougher, but in stand up fighting, fighting more than one person can and does work.



> In Kali we do a little sparring



I do Eskrima as well and we do a bit of sparring. Fighting that way is an eye opener. If you don't have a weapon, and you're opponent really knows how to use one, you're in trouble. We spar in varying levels of armor and protection, but always with a regular rattan stick that's a little thinner than our daily training sticks.


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

Yeah right you have to run across panzys not to get hurt in a situation with more then one person,  What if they all tackle you hold you down and then start punching what can you do more then one person.  There are people that are untrained and easy to deal with but the problem comes along when you find your self fighting skilled fighters all around yourself.


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## bart (Jan 12, 2003)

I think you need to join the Army. But first try brushing up on your reading skills or you'll get a crap assignment when you do join up.

You wrote:


> What if they all tackle you hold you down and then start punching what can you do more then one person.



I wrote before that:


> In grappling it will be tougher, but in stand up fighting, fighting more than one person can and does work.



Well...the first thing you can do is not fight them on the ground. Focus on escape and getting past them rather than slugging it out NHB style. That will work in most situations. Then reposition yourself. A multiple grapple will suck for the outnumbered guy that's true. But if you are aware of what's going on you can take steps to make it not go to the ground. 



> you have to run across panzys not to get hurt in a situation with more then one person...There are people that are untrained and easy to deal with but the problem comes along when you find your self fighting skilled fighters all around yourself.



There's some truth to that. But also, skilled fighters often can't work together. Unskilled people are also hard to deal with because they sometimes don't know what will hurt them so they take crazy risks and sacrifice shots. Also they don't know when to stop so they can be tough. 

Try working with some friends on the multiple attacker thing trying not to fight on the ground, but just to get passed them. Then try generaling the fighting area so that the opponents aren't able to hit you en masse. Work on that before you knee jerk any more. You'll give better answers and you'll learn something.


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

I agree fighting multple on the ground is a real bad idea.  But using some throws may help if they are on you.   There is some truth to skilled fighters not working together they will start working to gether after a short bit somthing like you take him from behind as i rush him might happen.


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## KennethKu (Jan 12, 2003)

For heavan sake, train to put some bite into your punches and kicks. Learn what to hit that can neurtalize your attacker with one strike.


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

I am.


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## Master of Blades (Jan 12, 2003)

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the point of Martial Arts was to be able to defend yourself in REAL LIFE situations. Everytime I have been attacked or one of my friends have they usually out number you But in my opinion you still have the advantage. For one they will not be used to working and fighting together as a team and once things get tough the groups tend to break up and do there own thing anyway. Two they probably wont be skilled Martial Artist because very few (But still more then I like) actually do Martial Arts to go and mug and attack people. 

Bart, 
        I have to agree it is a whole lot differant to fighting in any type of way. We do it with a normal stick with a slight bit of padding around it, no armour, untill we are asked to stop or our teacher feels that hit would have knocked that person out. The most interesting thing was when he showed us that anything could be used as a weapon. He asked me to go to the table and get him a magazine. He rolled it up and told me to attack him with two sticks. I went down like a light within a minute. I'm now more aware of my surroundings and so on when Im out. The only problem with Kali, Escrima and Arnis in my opinion is the fact you do NEED sparring. When your going through all the drills and so on its at a reasonable speed and so on but if you notice when your sparring its a LOT faster and a lot harder to catch openings and gather techniques. 

:asian:


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## TkdWarrior (Jan 12, 2003)

> Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the point of Martial Arts was to be able to defend yourself in REAL LIFE situations. Everytime I have been attacked or one of my friends have they usually out number you But in my opinion you still have the advantage.


let me tell u my observation 
before getting into MA i had a fight against 4-5 guys of my own size i was able to defend myself... n after learning MA i m having problems dealing with multiple oppnts... now go figure

the only thing is that i don't wanted to get hurt that day n used every bull ***** method to save myself(bricks, used one of pipes)....

from my understanding of an art i guess MA first make u unlearn any bad/good habit which u hav aquired over the years n then make u learn good/bad habbits... that's why MA require more efforts n time to get into that Mode(Self Defense)...

going with thread...
well sparring does teach u some good habbits but it hav downfall too... even u r doing full contact(with pads) u don't tend to hit with 100 intent behind ur strikes because noone wants to hurt his sparring partners... i m not totally against sparring but it should be done with lots of things in mind ie. SD, enviornments etc etc

-TkdWarrior-


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## thesensei (Jan 12, 2003)

but i enjoy sport style point sparring!  it's not all i do, and i know it doesn't do much for real combat preparation, but i enjoy it!  some people like golf...i'd rather point spar!  i do also do some medium and full contact continuous sparring, with just basic rules, like no groin, throat, or back strikes.  other than that, we'll sweep, and go to the ground along with basic striking.  i guess i just like it all!!

jb


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## Master of Blades (Jan 12, 2003)

Alright, to all you people who say that even in full contact sparring your still not hitting as hard as you should be I have a few things for you to think about. 

First it depends on the person, My dads Hapkido class was Full Blown Contact and they had at least 2 hospital visits each week. Now if you think that they are training 6 days a week then thats quite a lot. Some people have the killer instinct where they treat sparring like it is a real fight and there first instinct is to defend themselves however possible. Then you get people like me, who fight to win, but I'm not out to break someones leg in a leglock for no reason. 

Secondly, NO-ONE, except maybe Judo-Kid from what I've read, claims that Sparring of any sort can compare to real life. BUT, I will tell you that it is THE closest thing to real life. If I wanted to prepare myself for real life, I would do a number of things, including precision, drills and sparring etc. But I dont, all I'm saying is that sparring is a great way to improve your skill in most areas in preparation for real life.

Thats my feelings anyway......:asian:


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## KennethKu (Jan 12, 2003)

Except that when you get into a real fight, your adrenaline starts pumping, your field of vision narrows, your mind racing a million miles an hour thinking of everything under the sun or going blank, except that you forget all your techniques, and time stands still.  When you spar, you are relaxed and having fun. B/c no one is about to spill your teeth all over the place and no one is going to smash your nuts nor cave your face in.  In real fighting, you don't know if his thug friends are going to join the fray or jump you and you don't know if he might draw a blade on you or carry a gun. Furthermore, he is probably unlikely to call you out to get you into stance and start a duel. You are probably in a pissing match and then Voila! left hooks, right hooks raining down on you like drain drops in a hurricane. Next thing you know, you are kissing the floor while he is practicing football with your stomach.  Hey, at least you didn't get stabbed or shot! Count your blessing.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid_
> 
> *My rant on sparring, First off i am tired of this TMA stuff where they end up saying sparring dosnt prove anything because on the street its diffrent there are people there are weapons and objects which get in the way.*



So when was the last time, while sparring, that you were hit so hard that it took the fight completely out of you?  Since that is what we train for (at least in the TMA that I have both trained in and encountered), it makes "realistic" sparring pretty much a nonexistent thing...  When A attacks B, and B smashes his arms making them go numb, then smashes his neck making him black out, there isn't much in jumping about while wearing protective gear that really comes out equalling the same thing...



> *First off what TMA or MMA can really deal with a gun (NONE).*



Well, a TMA that allows itself to continue growing to deal with the advances of technology does.  Yiliquan has a series of gun defenses designed to deal with generic approaches - i.e. gun to the back or side of the head; gun at belly; gun to either side of the head; gun held close by opponent's side, as if drawn and held close.  While they are not assumed to be a 100% effective response (getting even grazed by a bullet will very likely end the fight, no matter what Hollywood would have you believe), they _are_ taught as last ditch efforts to deal with the situation in an attempt to keep yourself as safe as possible.  That having been said, there are "non-traditional" styles that allege street effectiveness that are still teaching to block attacks with knives that are both unrealistic and are defended against with blocks and techniques that actually increase the possibility that the defender will get stabbed or cut (my favorite is the upward X block against a downward stab - the defender is going to walk away with _both_ forearms being filleted to the bone...).



> *Also no martial art is really ment for multiple oppents. Lets just face the facts more then 2 and your in pritty deep water.*



Again, your lack of exposure shows itself here...  Bagua, for one, is intended for use against multiple, skilled opponents.  You can only be effectively attacked by so many people at one time, and after a point they begin getting in each other's way.  A "real" martial art (as opposed to a sport or UFC oriented one) realizes this fact, and attempts to capitalize on it...



> *Also if MMAs had lost in the UFC the TMA would use it to promote it self over MMA arts as MMA has done to Promote itself Over TMA.*



You are probably right.  I doubt it would be done in quite the same "I told you so" fashion that you imply, however.  



> *Some TMA do work*



Actually, _all_ TMA work...  However, a TMA taught by someone who doesn't fully understand what he/she is doing, or that failed to train long enough to fully grasp the principles of that art, will not.  Same goes for MMA - if taught by a competent person, MMA work just fine.  If taught by a nose-picking idiot, I doubt they will work so well...



> *People say Sparring dosnt prove anything,*



Because it doesn't.  "Sparring," as it is commonly understood, amounts to two people jockeying for position around each other, looking for an opening in their movement or defense, trying to land a blow - but not one that would actually hurt and incapacitate the opponent.  This lack of incapacitating strikes makes sparring a cheap imitation of a "real" fight, and therefore ultimately useless in MA training...  It is a fun game for kids, but useless beyond that.



> *What dos, What would people like a full contact fight with people carrying weapons do they really think they will do better then people that do MMA.*



TMA or MMA regardless - an art used for "real" combat on the street deals with the immediate need to incapacitate your opponent.  _Not_ roll around on the concrete with him, _not_ dance around trading dirty looks, _not_ hitting the opponent with blows that will do little more than piss him off.

[QUOTE*With out sparring there is no way to truely test your skills without going in a real life or death situation. So befor you spout stuff please try sparring out for your self. The true way to test your system is to fight people at the top of your system then fight people that are out of your system.*[/QUOTE]

Judo-kid, I have "sparred" and I have trained with self-defense techniques from TMA.  I was both a National and Regional Champion with the AAU, 5 times and 8 times respectively.  I have "sparred," and I am telling you that in my experience sparring is a load of horsesh*t.  When RyuShiKan (from right here on Martial Talk) told me to punch him with all I had, in the blink of an eye I felt a lightning strike in my arm, and a high speed impact with the floor...  There was no sparring involved - just my attack and his response.



> *If you really believe without testing your skills and system your ready for the street you are some day gonna get a rude awaking.*



I would respond with:  "If you think that you are really testing your skills by dancing around playing patty-cake with your pal, an convincing each other that such activities prepare you for a real fight, then some day you are going to get a rude awakening..."

Come train with us in Puyallup.  You have my email address...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *You need NHB sparring to test your self.  Be real take the test and beat the best.  Also three step sparring isnt real sparring at least to me. *



Come down to Puyallup.  I will show you what I mean when I say we do one step and three step sparring...

Just FYI, do you know when _kumite_ first entered common use in Japanese martial arts?  I think the answer will surprise you...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## yilisifu (Jan 12, 2003)

Most people nowadays who practice traditional three and one step fight do it incorrectly.  That's why some of them believe it's useless.
   Actually, the correct method is more difficult than "sparring."  Yiliquan does little "sparring" but a great deal of what we call "strategy work" which does involve alot of one-step done in different ways.
   If you want to practice with no-holds barred, then one person should end up dead or hospitalized.  
   If one of my juniors demanded that his senior "spar" with him full-tilt boogie, we'd be short one junior in a few seconds.
   The argument for practicing no-holds barred to gain real fighting skill makes as much sense as shooting at each other to learn REAL combat shooting.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *The argument for practicing no-holds barred to gain real fighting skill makes as much sense as shooting at each other to learn REAL combat shooting. *



"Aww, c'mon!  Can't we shoot at each other tonight sensei???"


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## yilisifu (Jan 12, 2003)

Well, maybe just tonight....but if you both miss, we're gonna work on knife fighting

With Bowie knives

:rofl:


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## Matt Stone (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *Well, maybe just tonight....but if you both miss, we're gonna work on knife fighting
> 
> With Bowie knives
> ...



Sounds fun!!!  I need a new scar...  Last time I got cut all I got was arterial bleeding and a measly 1/2 inch scar...


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## yilisifu (Jan 12, 2003)

And you forgot to mop up the blood before you left for the hospital.....


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## fissure (Jan 12, 2003)

I think sparring has some benefits. I've done point, light contact - I feel it gives you a chance to work on timing with a decent array of tech. Of course without contact there is no fear or panic. You don't learn to deal with the pain and shock of being hit. Both types of formal full contact sparring I've tried  ( I used to have a group of friends who trained in various arts, who liked to beat the crap out of each other on our own time - ah the good old days!) Judo and TKD addressed the later problem. Lots of heavy contact which is good, but at the expense of VERY limited tech.
I haven't been in a street fight in almost 10 yrs. (I'm 31 now), I can't imagine any form of sparring can fully prepare you for this situation. I've never been choked out in a TKD tourny. I don't remember Ken Shamrock getting poked in the eye while applying an arm bar. I think sparring is fine - as long as you know that you are ultimately playing a game, even if it is a painful one.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fissure _
> *I think sparring is fine - as long as you know that you are ultimately playing a game, even if it is a painful one. *



Well said.  

I have been in the Army for a long time.  We use the MILES system to represent shooting during "war games."  MILES amounts to really high powered laser tag, and the only danger you are in is of having a really loud, obnoxious beeper go off in your ear.

When I played paintball for the first time (I LOVE PAINTBALL!!!), I didn't realize how very different it would be from laser tag - until I got hit.  Since it took about a month for that bruise to heal, I had the lesson drilled into my head every single time I saw it.  The lesson was what, you ask?  That the real deal hurts and it isn't a game.

I guess for me, I would rather drill a few techniques over and over again, real ones that will dispatch my opponent in a matter of seconds, rather than practice very esoteric though wholly impractical techniques that _could_ disable my opponent, but would likely cause me to be vulnerable as well...

And from what I understand of "traditional" arts, much of the original content was very homely and direct.  Kill him.  Now.   Then go eat lunch...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

I will have to say that your fooling yourself if you do NHB with someone that is really wanting to kick your butt it will get you ready.  You will get a aderilien dump also you will get to see what really works. 

You say that some TMA are ment for multiple oppents get real with your self.   

For starters if you get tackled or if someone gets around you your in deep ****.

Depends if you run into good fighters,  Your in deep trouble the only video i have seen where a guy takes on more then one person and get away unhurt is Mike Vallely vs Four random Ocks.

Lets just face it not all people you run across will be that panzy like.

Why do people still try and say that Sparring dosnt prove anything.  

People who say this have not done full contact fighting vs someone whos trying to hurt them and vice versa because i will tell you what it sure feels like a real fight.


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## fissure (Jan 12, 2003)

Does anyone read all of the post in a thread anymore?
Again I have fought full contact. I had only the fear that I would be K.O.ed. I have never worried about my opponent stomping on my unconscious skull after he dropped me until I was dead. I have never in full contact sparring worried about another competitor cross facing me from behind.

I agree that having the expectation of being able to defeat multiple opp. is risky at best. I have fought 3on 1, and 4 on 1 before. Both times I did O.K. That is to say I walked away with minor injuries, and few of them were at least in the same condition. I am the first to admit that these guys weren't exactly bad asses, and if I'm in that situation again things could be very different.
I don't know of a TMA instructor who sells his art by claiming you will be able to take out half a dozen guys at any time!


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## yilisifu (Jan 12, 2003)

The fact is.....

   Sparring must rely on rules for the sake of safety.  Real fighting knows no such thing.  I used to keep a sign up in my training hall which was a quote from "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid"........
            RULES?  IN A KNIFE FIGHT?

   It expresses the idea perfectly.

   When you say "no holds barred", I take that literally.  It means I can bite my partner's ear off, crush his testicles, or slam my elbow into his throat or temple if I get the chance, right?
   If that's not allowed, then it's not truly "no holds barred."

   Traditional martial arts ARE meant for handling multiple opponents.  Remember that these arts were developed for battlefield use, not for putting on a pair of Speedos and playing grabass.  They were not designed for use in a nicely padded, roped-off ring.  There were no second place winners.  

   I have been training in traditional martial arts most of my life.  As a peace officer, I have run into many situations involving one, two, or even more opponents.

   I have no scars.  My traditional training held up just fine.

   You idea about "it depends on if you run into good fighters...."  There are always "IF's."  It also depends on whether or not they are armed and what they are armed with, how many there are, if you're tired or injured......there is always an IF.

   Please don't try to judge the effectiveness of traditional arts unless you have trained in them for at least ten years.  After a decade of REAL traditional training, come back and we'll talk.


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## fissure (Jan 12, 2003)

I'm assuming that last paragraph was directed to Judo-Kid;


> Please don't try to judge the effectiveness of traditional arts unless you have trained in them for at least ten years. After a decade of REAL traditional training, come back and we'll talk.


If not, I've been training in Traditional Arts for 24 yrs.


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

I am talking real NHB, under ground NHB fights.


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## J-kid (Jan 12, 2003)

Why should i come back in tens years LOL, I can look at people doing it there whole lives as a good example.  How about you go and face a True mixed martial artist and then come back and talk to me.


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## Quick Sand (Jan 12, 2003)

Back to the original question, my style does only light contact, point sparring. No strikes below the belt, no contact to the head, no contact to the back. People below brown belt are not even allowed open hand techniques. There are also no "uncontrolled" techniques allowed. 

Personally I like this just fine. It teaches control. If you do a technique to the head and make contact, you're disqualified. If however the techniques stops like 2 inches from the head and you're fully extended so you couldn't make contact, that's not a point. You have to stop the technique but within the range that you could have made contact if you'd wanted to. 

I know a lot of people will say that this style does not prepare you for a real fight etc. and will probably jump on my for this, that's fine. I actually agree. It doesn't prepare me for a real fight but I plan to do anything I can to AVOID a fight. I'm not training the the MA's to increase my pain tollerance, get my a** kicked or learn to kick other peoples a**. I like the challange and that I do know some self defense techniques if a situation ever does arise but I will still do anything I can to avoid that. I'll be the first to admit that I'm pretty much a wimp. That doesn't mean that I can't take a full powered hit ( I have sparred with people that haven't learned how to control their stuff yet) but I PREFER to not get hit that hard. 

I like point sparring just fine and plan to stay with it. :soapbox: 
Stepping down now.


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## chufeng (Jan 12, 2003)

Thin-ice JK...

chufeng


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## KennethKu (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Quick Sand _
> ........It doesn't prepare me for a real fight but I plan to do anything I can to AVOID a fight. I'm not training the the MA's to increase my pain tollerance, get my a** kicked or learn to kick other peoples a**. I like the challange and that I do know some self defense techniques if a situation ever does arise but I will still do anything I can to avoid that. I'll be the first to admit that I'm pretty much a wimp. That doesn't mean that I can't take a full powered hit ( I have sparred with people that haven't learned how to control their stuff yet) but I PREFER to not get hit that hard.
> 
> I like point sparring just fine and plan to stay with it. :soapbox:
> Stepping down now.



as long as you know what you are getting out of it....

heck, you can be doing MA simply b/c you enjoy wearing the uniform....

as long as you don't train in A and expect to get B.....all is well...


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## JDenz (Jan 12, 2003)

Don't wrte any headlines or anything but for once I agree with Judo kid.  Anybody that thinks they are ready for a street defense situation that doesn't spar at all is out of there mind.    Buy the big red suit.  Anyone that doesn't actully hit attackers and take a few hits themselves are not as ready as they can be.  
     MMA arts are the best on the street because if it is real MMA then it has good striking, good takedowns, and good ground fighting.  If it is a grappling art like all the TMAists seem to think MMA is they are still okay I would think, as long as they have good throws.   No mater what you think more then one on one usually involves weapons an other nice surprises.  I would say mos TMAists are not preparied to deal with situations that arise on the streets.  Obviously the few people that train hard core will be prepaired but on the whole I would say 90% are not prepaired.


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## fringe_dweller (Jan 12, 2003)

Chufeng,

I am interested in how you spar - three step? - and what it involves. I study hkd and a there are a lot of things which I would not like to try applying on someone unless I really wanted to hurt them. Hence on the rare occasions where I would spar I mostly use kicks or strikes with occasional arm bars.

Respectfully,


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## Matt Stone (Jan 13, 2003)

Yet again, I invite Judo-kid down to Puyallup so I can demonstrate to him the usefulness of not sparring...  At least not the way he thinks.

When Chufeng and I were training a few weeks back, I suppose you could say we were "sparring" in the sense that we were trading attacks and defenses without letting up.  The training focus was on follow up techniques rather than a simple block-strike response, endurance, and learning to think on your feet.

However, I spent quite a bit of time face down on the concrete (yes, concrete - we train outdoors) after having been hit.  It seems the thinking is that TMAists don't really hit when they train...  Far from it.

Ultimately, though, that session was a rarity.  Our training is usually oriented on having the attacker (A) come at the defender (B) with a general type of attack (a punching technique, a kicking technique, a grab, etc.; for beginners, the actual technique is specified so they don't get impaled on a technique they weren't able to intercept).  A strikes at B, B reacts.  The strikes start out light until the feel of the combination is comfortable.  Then, gradually, the tempo and power are cranked up, notch by notch.  By the time we finish, each partner has sucked floor several times.  I write this at 0105 AM on Monday morning.  We trained Saturday from 0900 until 1200...  My forearms are still sore from the beating they took at the hands of a _beginner_.



> *I will have to say that your fooling yourself if you do NHB with someone that is really wanting to kick your butt it will get you ready. You will get a aderilien dump also you will get to see what really works.*



You are correct.  And when you run across a TMAist that has trained for decades to remain calm and not react with unrestrained emotionally charged mistakes but with surgical reactions to common situations, you will also get to see what really works...



> *You say that some TMA are ment for multiple oppents get real with your self.*



And with your vast experience studying TMA, you know this how?  Based on the poor demonstration by half-a$$ed schools that you already acknowledge have limited skills? Like the saying goes, you can't see the forest because the trees block your view...



> *For starters if you get tackled or if someone gets around you your in deep ****.*



That might explain Bagua's orthodox footwork being intended to assist in taking you to the rear of the opponent...? 



> *Depends if you run into good fighters, Your in deep trouble*



Because, as we all know, trained MAists are usually the ones starting trouble...  In all the fights I have heard of, of all the police reports I have read, the only reports of martial arts training were from guys trying to sound tough...  The reality has been that the guys that actually had the MA training were either the ones _not_ involved in the fight, or the ones making the report to the police (as opposed to the other guy that was taking an ambulance ride downtown...).



> *the only video i have seen where a guy takes on more then one person and get away unhurt is Mike Vallely vs Four random Ocks.*



Thus showing that fighting multiple opponents *can* be done...  Although I have absolutely no idea who Mike Vallely is, nor what in the world an Ock might be...



> *Lets just face it not all people you run across will be that panzy like.*



You're right...  Most of the people you will run across that you might have to use empty handed defense techniques against would be drunks, punks, or equally imposing and dangerous figures...  The _really_ dangerous people carry guns, and so would not be the best choices for a rear naked choke... 



> *Why do people still try and say that Sparring dosnt prove anything. *



Because it doesn't.  Why do people still try and say that sparring _does_ prove something?



> *People who say this have not done full contact fighting vs someone whos trying to hurt them and vice versa because i will tell you what it sure feels like a real fight.*



I haven't done full contact fighting, but the traditional training I have had, where my partner has slammed me in the liver or some other equally tender morsel and caused me to suck floor, sure felt like the real thing, too...

Come down to Puyallup, Judo-kid.  Then you will be able to either say that TMA works, TMA is okay, or TMA is crap.  No matter what, you will actually have experience with TMA to base your decision on...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

MAKE YOU A DEAL YILIQUAN1 YOU HAVE ME INTRESTED.

YOU COME DOWN TO ONE OF MY SCHOOLS FOR SOME GOOD OLD FASHIN SPARRING AND ILL GO TO YOUR SCHOOL.

WHAT DO YOU SAY, YOU IN?


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## Matt Stone (Jan 13, 2003)

Asked you first...



And of the two of us, I have nothing to prove...  You are the one slamming TMA, and saying that your methods are the best.  I am simply stating that perhaps your experience is insufficient to allow you to make an objective decision.

I am offering you a training opportunity.  You are hoping to lead me into an a$$-beating.

Tell you what - if you can show me I'm wrong for training in TMA, then I will quit Yiliquan entirely and come and train under you personally...   If I show you that there are other options out there (I'm not trying to convert you entirely, just open your eyes to the rest of the MA world), you can continue doing whatever you like...

It's up to you.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

Hows this in say one month come down and we will do a little Sparring and i will show you some of my technics then i will go up to your dojo.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 13, 2003)

How's this...

I am content to train with what I am working on currently...  I know that my system will continue to provide me with sufficient material with which to busy myself for years to come.  

You are the one that makes public claims to want to "master" multiple styles, to experience everything you possibly can.  You are the one that decries TMA training as the worst thing going, and tout the wondrous abilities of MMAists around the world.

I have no need nor interest in coming to your dojo.  You were the one expressing an interest in coming to my training and the training of others...

Like I said before, if you can show me that I have been wasting my time, I will quit and proclaim you my teacher.  Until then, how about you come up and see that TMA isn't all talk and fluff...   We have no mats, no pads, no mouthpieces, no gloves.  We train hard, we work on details and combinations, we hit hard and go home happy, just like I suppose your school(s) do.  The difference is, you are the one on a mission to prove that we are wrong.  I am content with my art.

I guess this means you won't be coming down...  Too bad.  I was looking forward to meeting you.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

If i go down there once, will you go to one of my schools once,  If i have to try somthing new.  So do you!


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## cali_tkdbruin (Jan 13, 2003)

Within the rules of sanctioned sparring it must be within WTF Taekwondo guidelines, but, outside the rules, well...:uhoh:
Anyway, can I do eye rippies or what? :erg: 

 :rofl::rofl:


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

sure only if i can do a nut twister


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## yilisifu (Jan 13, 2003)

JK - I HAVE fought MMA practicioners.  Many, many times.  They lost.

   And we never even went to the ground.


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

:lol: :lol: :boing2: :rofl: :boing1: :moon: hahahaha your funny.


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## KennethKu (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _......   Please don't try to judge the effectiveness of traditional arts unless you have trained in them for at least ten years. .....



Please correct me if I am wrong.  You must not be referring to the technical aspect here.

Why does it take 10 yrs to repeat a technique endlessly before you know it works or not?  If you cannot demonstrate why and how  a certain technique works on the spot, there is an inherent flaw.  I understand that it takes time to develope speed and strength, in terms of months. May be a couple of years to get your body into top shape.  But 10 yrs is a long time to toss away just to see if something works or not.


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## KennethKu (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> * :lol: :lol: :boing2: :rofl: :boing1: :moon: hahahaha your funny. *



If you want to be taken seriously, this is not helping. Show some basic courtesy and respect.


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

Dude i think he is joking. Right?


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## TkdWarrior (Jan 13, 2003)

> don't try to judge the effectiveness of traditional arts unless you have trained in them for at least ten years. .....


when we talk about effectiveness of MA we r talking about self defense not Art itself n assuming u r talking about Self Defense
i m not up for this kind of advice...if i need something then i need it now or it's too late...

i understand about arts like Taiji/bagua etc but even then teachers had made their pupils stand for months before going into forms n then correcting form/postures for years...
it hav given them strong root/postures

-TkdWarrior-


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## TkdWarrior (Jan 13, 2003)

Judo Kid thinks that MMA never losses...
-TkdWarrior-


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## yilisifu (Jan 13, 2003)

Judo Kid certainly named himself appropriately.  His level of maturity certainly indicates that he is a kid.  With much to learn, as is the case with most children.

   KennethKu - what I mean by training in a given art for a decade is true.  One cannot REALLY "know" a technique (or an art) until one has trained for at least that amount of time.  Giving it just a couple of months isn't nearly enough.


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## Kirk (Jan 13, 2003)

Wow, I can't believe you're skipping such an amazing opportunity,
Judo Kid.


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## chufeng (Jan 13, 2003)

YiLiQuan1,

Maybe if you offer to let JK use his keyboard in your sparring session, he'll come down.

JK, YiLiQuan1 HAS gone from dojo to dojo, in the United States and in Japan...he has NO reason to come to your gym to "train."
If you want to find out what we do, come on down; it's an open invitation...from everything I've read here and elsewhere, though, you have already drawn your conclusion. Having never seen, tasted, or touched what WE do, you KNOW that it's crap.

I can live with that...

:asian:
chufeng


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## KennethKu (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> KennethKu - what I mean by training in a given art for a decade is true.  One cannot REALLY "know" a technique (or an art) until one has trained for at least that amount of time.  Giving it just a couple of months isn't nearly enough.



A few months are definitle not sufficient to learn an art. But would be reasonable for a  specific technique.  It also depends on what you define as "REALLY Know".


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## yilisifu (Jan 13, 2003)

No, not at all.  A novice's punch, developed after only a few months of practice, is nothing when compared to that of a senior who has spent years polishing and strengthening it.
   Additionally, a novice will see only perhaps a couple of ways of applying it, whereas a senior may see many different ways.

     After only a few month's practice, novices often still have "bugs" in many of their techniques.  It takes a great of practice and introspection to polish them out.


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## Astra (Jan 13, 2003)

yilisifu:Agreed. Learning a whole new art(Wing Chun) for the past 5 months, I can only say that I am somehow beginning to grasp the concept the techniques that are beeing taught to me, and am far from "doing them as I should be." Even extremely simple ones, like Pak-Sao which is just basically "extending the arm out"


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## yilisifu (Jan 13, 2003)

Repetition is the mother of learning, Astra.  I laugh and tell my newer students not to worry; in 10 years they won't even have to think about how to do it.....


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## fissure (Jan 13, 2003)

> Repetition is the mother of learning, Astra. I laugh and tell my newer students not to worry; in 10 years they won't even have to think about how to do it.....


This is the key, I think. Being able to respond with a particular tech. or even a certain avenue of action without the need to think it through first.
Remember when you learnt to drive? The basics were developed quickly, but it takes considerable time for it to become second nature.


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

Hey yilisifu i thought you where joking because it said JK (i thought meaning Just kidding).

But please do tell me some of them names of the people you defeat and what art there are how big and strong and how old there where,  Also how long they have been in martial arts.


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## fissure (Jan 13, 2003)

> how big and strong and how old there where, Also how long they have been in martial arts.


Hey Judo-kid, you bring up an interesting issue. In other threads there has been put forth the idea of you sparring with other members of this board. These i think, are grown men. I try not to bring up your age when ever possible, but I know that most guys are not full grown at your age. This begs the question - how big and strong are you? Are you in a position to go up against guys 10 or 15 yrs. older than you? I meen no offence with this.


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## chufeng (Jan 13, 2003)

JudoKid...

YiLiSifu competed back in the 60s and 70s...MMA back then was frowned upon...Tradition was the key...BUT, these young upstarts, the MMA folks wanted to make a name for themselves...and they did...and they beat a lot of good folks who, unfortunately, did not train in the same tradition as YiLiSifu...

Because YiLiSifu often would compete in a tournament organized and run by these folks, he rarely would win on points...(MMA gets point for illegal contact...traditional MA guy gets points taken away for same conduct) instead, he would take the disqualification and knock the silly guy right out of the ring. Bowing to the referee and judges he would accept defeat as the MMA friends would be helping the guy out of the tangle of chairs and back to his feet.

So, since you are so interested in names...who have you beaten lately?

:asian:
chufeng


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## chufeng (Jan 13, 2003)

Fissure wrote:

"Are you in a position to go up against guys 10 or 15 yrs. older than you?"

Try 30 years older...and fat...and arthritic...and willing, regardless.

:asian:
chufeng


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## fissure (Jan 13, 2003)

Maybe he will bring you some Tiger Balm, if he comes down to train!


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## yilisifu (Jan 13, 2003)

Aside from competition, I also foolishly engaged in challenge matches in my younger years.  There were no rules.  No padded rings with roped off sides.  No protective gear of any kind.  It was an actual fight (although some other person often acted as a referee of sorts, in case things got too wild).

   Names?  I don't remember.  Ages?  My age and several years older (at the time) which means from about 20 to 30.  Size?  Some were rather small and others were rather large.  Some had really big mouths but small skill.
   Most of them had trained in martial arts for quite some time.  Several years, anyway.  We didn't bother to exchange that kind of information prior to trying to bash each other's faces.

   Things were very different in the martial arts back in the 60's and even the 70's.  Protective gear hadn't been invented, so all fighting was bare-knuckled.  No one was sure what "light contact" meant and a lot of people got hurt.  Some critically.  A handful were killed (very bad for the arts in those days).  Broken bones were fairly common as were faces that looked like they'd been struck with a hammer.

   Things have improved in competitive fighting since those days.  But training back then was very rigorous and also very traditional.  People took their training very seriously and trained very hard, doing exactly what their teachers told them to do.
   Challenge matches don't happen anymore; not like they used to.  People discovered lawyers and lawyers discovered lawsuits...and that pretty well put an end to it.  And I think that's a good thing, too.

   The point is that I fought people trained in various martial arts; from judo and jujutsu to various forms of karate and even some kung-fu (which was rare in those days) as well as western boxers.  And I am here to say that REAL traditional martial arts work.
   Much of what passes nowadays for traditional martial arts, isn't.  Traditional martial arts training is very serious and extremely rigorous.  Sometimes brutal.  No point-sparring.  No hand or foot pads.  If you puke, you clean it up.  If you bleed, you clean it up.
   It is highly disciplined (THAT'S the key).   And that's how I train my students today.


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## JDenz (Jan 13, 2003)

To the guys challanging Judo-kid if you were as pure and unemotional in your posts as you claim to be you guys wouldn't be challanging Judo.  You guys have a liftime of experance on him.  That would be like a profighter challanging a blue belt.  If you won would that give you alot of satisfaction.  If you have een training 20 years why don't you challange someon like Matt Hume, Baroni, Coleman.


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## fissure (Jan 13, 2003)

> To the guys challanging Judo-kid if you were as pure and unemotional in your posts as you claim to be you guys wouldn't be challanging Judo.


 
Who challenged Judo-Kid? Yiliquan1 offered him the chance to train with him and his class in another thread. Judo-kid said he would consider it if they could spar.
The banter here has centered on MMA vs. TMA in general - maybe I missed something?


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## yilisifu (Jan 13, 2003)

I don't see where any challenges have been issued by anyone here.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 13, 2003)

I, for one, haven't challenged him.  I'm not sure anyone else has, either. 

I offered him the chance to come and hang out with our training group, to participate, to see how a TMA group trains and practices.  All of this for no other reason than to allow him the first hand opportunity to gain information he has yet to acquire from any other source than folks in his school, his teacher, and others that hold the same preconceptions he holds.

I thought that MMA was a load of manure until I met the guy that taught me Modern Arnis.  After talking with him, learning what he was about, what he thought about training (which, to my surprise, was far closer to TMA party line than I would have thought possible), and what he was able to do, I gained a new found respect for MMA in general - as long as it is approached correctly.

Judo-kid is just that - a kid.  I wouldn't challenge a child.  Hell, I won't challenge an adult (for ethical, moral, and legal reasons) either.  I just wanted to have a friendly exchance of information, from a senior student to a junior student.  Mutual information exchange, mutual benefit.  Then Judo-kid got a little big for his britches.  Whatever.

I doubted he would come in the first place, and his comments and behavior lately have reinforced my belief that he never had any intention to do so.  I think it goes a long way toward shedding light on his real intentions.  If he was all about training, no matter the source, then he would have taken the opportunity.  The offer is still there (for anyone that wants to take it - we won't turn anyone away) for what it is worth.  But he seems to think that I am the one with a need to prove myself.

Again, whatever.

Today is my victory over my self of yesterday.  Tomorrow is my victory over lesser men (because I have endured and lasted another day).  _That_ is the challenge I take up, not whether I can beat a given person on a given day...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## yilisifu (Jan 13, 2003)

Very well put.

   No one denies the effectiveness of Mixed Martial Arts; but many of us will insist that traditional martial arts are every bit as effective today as they were centuries ago.

   And it comes down to WHY each of us trains in martial arts.  If it's all about fighting, then we're wasting our time; a shotgun is more effective than any punch or takedown can ever be.

   But if we're interested in improving ourselves and learning more about who and what we are, then let's keep training.  To master ourselves...not to defeat others.

                                           :asian:


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## chufeng (Jan 13, 2003)

No challenges...just opportunities...

I've got nothing to prove...I'm 45, fat, gray, balding, and arthritic...
Why would I challenge a strong, energetic, robust youngster?

It seems that the challenge is: 

Does JudoKid want to learn what real traditional martial arts are like? Or, does he want to continue to bad-mouth them with no first-hand knowledge of what they entail...

If the former, good for him; if the latter, how sad.

That's all...

:asian:
chufeng


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## J-kid (Jan 13, 2003)

Like i said you come down and just try my school i will try yours.

In good faith i will go to your school first.

Anyhow what do you have to fear from a youngster like me,  Maybe perhaps i can teach you somthing TO


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## Kirk (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Like i said you come down and just try my school i will try yours.
> 
> In good faith i will go to your school first.
> ...



Like it or not, you're putting a condition on the invitation given to
you FIRST.  The polite MANLY thing to do is to go there first.  Be
a man.


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## TkdWarrior (Jan 13, 2003)

Yiliquan very well put
i for the one never want to miss an oppurtunity to train the traditional way... there's not much traditional school around my place there was one in aikido n i enjoyed learnt lot about aikido...
-TkdWarrior-


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## Matt Stone (Jan 13, 2003)

When I was living in Japan, I had the opportunity to train with a teacher who had inherited his sword style from his father, who learned it while assigned to the Emperor's Imperial Guards...

I squandered that opportunity because I was busy with other things.

Eventually, I went to train in his karate style, which I found out later was really only Shotokan with a dab of Muay Thai and Kyokushin (not that that should take away from what he did).

I _loved_ his dojo - the Spirit Dojo - because of its spirit.  _Very_ traditional, but very much alive and reactive to changes in real life...

Later, I came across a guy (Martial Talk's very own RyuShiKan) I knew had a good background, but I wasn't too sure about what he could do or how he would teach.  I trained with him once and was hooked from the get go.  Again, _very_ traditional, but alive.

So what, right?

I didn't enjoy either of the training opportunities so much so because of _what_ they taught (because in both cases it was very similar to what I had already done), but because of _how_ they taught it.

Judo-kid's background in training would, very likely, have a lot to do with the influences he was subjected to when he first started.  I was lucky in that my teacher, YiLiSifu, instilled in me a respect for what had gone before while maintaining an eye toward how it would stay alive and real.  It is entirely possible that Judo-kid's dislike for TMA stems from either his teacher or senior students that he respected.  With no information to allow him to objectively decide, that would be the only explanation I could see.

If he comes out, fine.  If not, fine.  I will continue to train either way...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## chufeng (Jan 13, 2003)

> Anyhow what do you have to fear from a youngster like me, Maybe perhaps i can teach you somthing TO



Maybe you can teach me something new...I'm more than willing to learn...

...and, I have NOTHING to fear from a youngster...
the worst thing that could happen is that you hit me real hard in a vital point and I die...so what?  If you learn something from that...it may well have been worth it...

On the other hand, I will NOT hit you on a vital point...
I will allow you many openings to attack to...
...and I won't make you suffer beyond your ability to endure it.

OK??!!

But really, we'll just have a good time...
We'll sweat and work on traditional stuff...and you'll have something to base your "opinions" on.

:asian: 
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Like i said you come down and just try my school i will try yours.*



Why do I need to try your school?  I have nothing to prove, neither to you nor myself...  I _have_ trained in both traditional and non-traditional arts...  Have you?  Your judo background seems to smack less of tradition and more of modern competitive combat sport, so I don't really count it as "traditional," even though judo is often considered a traditional Japanese art.



> *In good faith i will go to your school first.*



Or don't.  You are the one that has painted yourself into a corner.  If you do show up someday, it will speak volumes about your intentions.  If you don't come, that will speak volumes that are just as loud.  Either way, no skin off my nose, no sweat off my...  back.   



> *Anyhow what do you have to fear from a youngster like me,  Maybe perhaps i can teach you somthing TOO  *



I implied early on that that may well be the case.  Confucius made it clear to his students to search out those who could teach them, those who could show them something they did not already know.  He said that in every three men, one was a fool who should not be trafficked with.  One was a peer who could help in the development of what was already known.  The third was a teacher, since he would know more than you.

I know which one I am.  Which one are you? 

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## SMAC (Jan 14, 2003)

I keep reading page one of an interesting thread but when i look at the last few entries its often so far removed from the original theme that i don't bother.
Anyway, sparring!
I like sparring. At my club we do many different forms of sparring. Hands only, legs only, Left side attacks only, right side attaks only, One person attacks(the other just blocks), Judo-style, ground-work, light continuous, point scoring, medium or heavy contact, fully padded up or no pads.
Variety is the spice of life.


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## Zujitsuka (Jan 14, 2003)

I like sparring.  It lets me know what I need to work on.  Hey, a heavy bag doesn't hit back.

Everyone seems to have a plan - until they get hit.  In my humble opinion, if you say you're training for self defense and you don't train hard contact with resisting opponents, you're fooling yourself.  An uke is just like a heavy bag - he/she doesn't hit back and is very compliant and predictable.

Another benefit of sparring is that you learn not freak out when you get hit.  You just roll with it, give as good as you got, and just keep it moving.  Sparring causes an adrenaline rush - nothing like the dump you'll get in a real fight though.  However, operating under this adrenaline rush, will help you to better appreciate how your motor skills are not as sharp as they were before the sparring.  You also learn to appreciate that eye pokes and such are not necessarily that easy.  I always wondered how someone was going to eye jab someone when the can't even punch them in the face with a big boxing glove.

BTW, I train in Jujutsu and Western Boxing.  I find them complimentary.  My 'tai-sababki' has been greatly improved since I've incorporated some Boxing's principles, and vice versa.

Train hard and kick butt.

Peace & blessings,


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## fissure (Jan 14, 2003)

> I always wondered how someone was going to eye jab someone when the can't even punch them in the face with a big boxing glove.


I think that when this refered to it is most often in the context of a grappling situation. Biting/scratching/poking opponents would certainly add to the difficulty of locking in a choke or joint manipulation!


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## Zujitsuka (Jan 14, 2003)

I was just being faceitous fissure.  But really though, I know a lot of guys who say, "If someone tried to punch me, I'd just side-step them and poke them in the eye."  The chances of someone who doesn't spar getting the timing and distancing down pat to pull this off are very, very slim.

Peace,


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## KennethKu (Jan 14, 2003)

besides, the guy is getting punched 20 times before he can even finish saying, "If someone tried to punch me, I'd just side-step them and poke them in the eye." 

How often in a real fight where you get a clean one, two punch, back and forth?  The guy will try to jump onto you and plummet you to a pulp ASAP.  A lot of MAists got overwhelmed in a real fight.

Should watch the clip where WC great William Cheung got jumped and plummeted while on the ground.  Kind of sad for me to watch, as I am partial to WC fighting concepts which form JKD fighting concepts. But it does highlight a couple of things. 1. Don't turn your back to your adversaries. 2. Always be vigilant. 3 Practice ground fighting.


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## bart (Jan 14, 2003)

> Should watch the clip where WC great William Cheung got jumped and plummeted while on the ground



It's a little unfair to say it that way. Cheung was in a foreign country in a peaceful situation teaching a seminar when somebody he didn't know came in and began shouting at him in a language he didn't understand. Then the person left and Cheung went back to teaching in a peaceful situation and a few seconds later he was tackled mid sentence from behind by that same guy. No good punches were thrown on either side. Nothing really landed with any force. He actually defended himself ok for being attacked by someone half his age. He was just on the bottom. If you watch the video again, Cheung had clear lines to Boztepe's face where the only technique he could have thrown were finger jabs to the eyes and throat. But he didn't. Whether that was out of panic or reserve, I'll never know.  



> 1. Don't turn your back to your adversaries. 2. Always be vigilant. 3 Practice ground fighting.



I agree that we train to be able to defend ourselves in any situation, but self defense in the physical sense is for the most part damage control. Hopefully you can do enough damage while not getting damaged that much to protect yourself. 

But when you are teaching MA's (as Cheung was during that seminar) often you have to let your vigilence down. For instance I used to not wear a cup in class because I thought it developed the bad habit of not protecting your groin. But then I began to teach kids and I had to let my guard down some, to teach technique and occasionally while I was working with one 8 year old, I'd get nailed by another accidentally. The same went for teaching adults. I think you have to look at the framework of the situation before you cite a confrontation like that as a demonstration of an MAist getting overwhelmed.



> Kind of sad for me to watch, as I am partial to WC fighting concepts which form JKD fighting concepts.



If you disparage Cheung then you still shouldn't be sad watching it as Emin Boztepe is a skilled WC(VT) guy too.


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## J-kid (Jan 14, 2003)

BIting scratching and eye gougeing really over rated.

You will find it will be hard to do on a experience grappler for these resons.

1.He is moving fast.
2 You are trying to keep balanced(if already on ground then trying to not get pinned up)
3 He can do it back to you and since your in his ball park he can do it much more and worse.
4 you might be giving him a submission by sticking those arms out
5 A good fighter will not be dazed by Scratching or Biting,
6 The eye gouging is hard to do on someone who is shifting around you as you roll.
7 Good well rounded grapplers will defend once you do get a eye hook in.
8 you will be trying to stand or doing somthing else and wont wont to confront a grappler ON THE GROUND.


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## KennethKu (Jan 14, 2003)

Actually I have a lot of respect for William Cheung. He is well liked and is a well respected WC master. He is also an accomplished man outside  the world of MA.

My point was, when you get jumped, irrespective of the circumstances, unpleasant things can and do happen to you.  The issue is not why he got jumped or whether he should have done this or that.  It is simply he got jumped and ended on the floor with the other guy ontop and throwing punches at his head.  He wasn't injured.   Boztepe most likely just wanted to humiliate him. (He could have done a flying side kick to Cheung's back, if he was going for broke.) (Of course Cheung would not have anticipated someone would stoop this low. But it happened.)

I  said it was sad for me to watch, b/c 2 WC guys ended up in such situation.   Yip Man would have been proud.


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## Master of Blades (Jan 14, 2003)

Didnt take long for this to become a muddle of Challenges and so forth :shrug:


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## JDenz (Jan 14, 2003)

Judo I agree witheverything but number 5.  Even an experianced grappler will be hurt when he gets poked in the eye.

  How many times to you see some one get poked on accident and have to stop the match.  While I agree in a street situation you wouldn't stop like that but even so it will affect the way you fight.  Eye poking and biting and stuff like that are not the end all bee all they are made out to be by some of the real real TMA guys that don't train on the ground at all that say an eye poke or bite can let them get out.  But they are efective and will always be.


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## J-kid (Jan 15, 2003)

I agree to some point but this may just make them more angry then anything else.


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## J-kid (Jan 15, 2003)

Also if you read number 5 carfully i said ( Scratching or Biting) i did not add in eye poking because a agree with you to a point.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *BIting scratching and eye gougeing really over rated.*



Sounds like someone that hasn't really been bitten, clawed, skin-grabbed or had their eyes gouged properly...  But then, with the lack of realistic approach to many MMA stylists' training (i.e. sport and competition oriented), these things may not come up as often as in a TMA setting where the training is intended not to win a title but to save a life...



> *You will find it will be hard to do on a experience grappler for these resons.
> 
> 1.He is moving fast.
> 2 You are trying to keep balanced(if already on ground then trying to not get pinned up)
> ...



My favorite is #5...    When someone is missing an ear, a lump of skin and meat (not a love nibble, mind you, but a bite that'd take a leg off a Thanksgiving turkey), or a digit, I suspect they will back off a tad no matter how tough they fancy themselves to be.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## bart (Jan 15, 2003)

> BIting scratching and eye gougeing really over rated...grappler for these resons.



Just raising some questions:



> 1.He is moving fast.



He's also expecting you to stay in once place or backstep, but usually not to sidestep or jump/dive out of the way.



> 2 You are trying to keep balanced(if already on ground then trying to not get pinned up)



A lunge is usually an off balance and committed move. The Experienced Grappler (EG) is trained to compensate, but should the target not be in place when the EG gets there, he's got to recover and that takes time. 



> 3 He can do it back to you and since your in his ball park he can do it much more and worse.



Generally NHB/Pride/UFC type fighters train to do legal moves. They can improvise, but they're not trained to do it reflexively. In this it depends more on the individual than the style. 



> 4 you might be giving him a submission by sticking those arms out



True, but a striker is trained to strike quickly and you have to admit, it's hard to catch a non-committed motion, especially if you're trying to seize the limb that's moving. If a seize is missed, it very likely opens up another gouge which my bite harder. 



> 5 A good fighter will not be dazed by Scratching or Biting,



That's like saying a good fighter will not be dazed by seeing his ear in your mouth or will not be dazed by a good gouge to the sac. It depends where the gouge, scratch, or bite is. If you have a death grip with your teeth on a guy's nose, chances are it will faze them. When people see damage to themselves, they panic, especially if they know it has something to do with that greasy wetness pooling where their ear used to be.



> 6 The eye gouging is hard to do on someone who is shifting around you as you roll.



Realistically, shifting around as you roll is hard to do on pavement, stairs, and uneven ground. Eye gouging penetrates the same holes as punching, which your NHB heros seem to have little trouble doing to each other. 



> 7 Good well rounded grapplers will defend once you do get a eye hook in.



EG's will defend against hits period. Experienced strikers will do the same. But a gouge to the eye will always get their attention. Sometimes it will make them react quicker and turn their fight ON. But others will panic, which I think to generally be the case. It depends on the individual and the framework of the injury. One thing to remember is that if they can't see you, you have a better chance of getting away or attacking them when they can't defend, EG or not.



> 8 you will be trying to stand or doing somthing else and wont wont to confront a grappler ON THE GROUND.



If you're not an EG, you DON'T want to confront an EG on the ground. That's a fact. Don't fight an enemy where the enemy has the advantage. Grapplers took the fight to the ground, because they didn't want to be in a striking game, where the enemy was strong. It's the same principle, just applied in a different manner. It goes both ways. 

True fact, NHB training is for a ring against someone who wants to fight you. That makes the framework of the fight they train for involve two willing combatants. Much less time is spent on capturing somebody who's trying to escape than in trying to fight someone who wants to fight you on the ground. A lot of grapplers will be out of their element if your sole purpose is to escape them and then return the fight to stand up position. 

Also, usually public fights involve more than one person on each side. It's always one crew vs another crew. Never forget the guy you're fighting on the ground has friends close by who will kick you and stab you and bludgeon you. Most of the time, they don't even care if they hit their friend accidentally. It's not wise to go to the ground while fighting a guy who has his friends around him.


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## J-kid (Jan 15, 2003)

Your statement is full of untruths, It appears you have never grappled or trained/faced a Expericend Grappler.  
You said, That if fast enough a EG can not get that limb.
Hnmm if that where true no one could ever get submissions and we know thats not true. Real good fighters will just get pissed off when you do that kind of crap,  Also you note when grappling in diffrent places they may not be able to, Yet you forget if you are grappling they have you in control and they are the ones working you and may use the stairs to there advantige.  You need to realize how good EGs are, Bart you need to face one.


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## J-kid (Jan 15, 2003)

You to Yiliquan1


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## Matt Stone (Jan 15, 2003)

Out of curiosity, Judo-kid, do you know the names of the wrestling coaches from Iowa State?  A number of years ago, I was matched up against a guy that was trained by them for wrestling competition.  The guy was 5 years younger than me, way stronger (he lifted constantly) and a very experienced wrestler.  His office matched him against me, champion against champion sort of, for a friendly competition.

He did his best, as did I.  He had several opportunities that could have caused some parts of me come back in more than one piece.  The overall concensus, however, was that he would have been in much worse shape than me given the number of shots I set out and touched him with...

That _was_ an experienced grappler, a state champion in wrestling to boot.

All it says for me was that on _that_ day I did well.  He did a number on my ribs much later, giving me a rib that is permanently dislocated and sticks out like a kickstand!  But the point is, I have done some mat time against "EGs" and did just fine...

Thanks for your comments, though.  Perhaps you simply need to go up against an ES instead of some shopping mall kiddie class veterans...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## J-kid (Jan 15, 2003)

EG is someone who dos it all.
You have to have submissions to takedowns to groundwork.
You need
Jujutsu
Sambo/Judo
Wrestling all kinds.


he is missing over half the list come on.


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## bart (Jan 15, 2003)

> Your statement is full of untruths, It appears you have never grappled or trained/faced a Expericend Grappler.



Quite a statement!



> You said, That if fast enough a EG can not get that limb.



Actually it comes back to reading skills. I said:

"True, but a striker is trained to strike quickly and you have to admit, it's *hard to catch* a non-committed motion, especially if you're trying to seize the limb that's moving. If a seize is missed, it very likely opens up another gouge which my bite harder. "

Last time I checked *hard* did not equate *inability*. It just denotes difficulty. Of course a strike can be caught. I didn't say anything to the contrary. I just said there's some difficulty in doing that. Read first, flame later.




> Real good fighters will just get pissed off when you do that kind of crap,



Real fighters, EG or not, do that kind of crap (gouges, bites, scratches, whatever incapacitates the opponent).



> Also you note when grappling in diffrent places they may not be able to, Yet you forget if you are grappling they have you in control and they are the ones working you and may use the stairs to there advantige.



This is that same knee jerk reaction you do that I was talking to you about before. Here's what I said:

"Realistically, shifting around as you roll is hard to do on pavement, stairs, and uneven ground. *Eye gouging penetrates the same holes as punching, which your NHB heros seem to have little trouble doing to each other.* "

You make the mistake of assuming that a grappler is always in control. Control moves back and forth during a fight. My comment above said that those strikes move in on the same line as punching does. Stairs and environment can be used against either person in a fight, again EG or not. 



> It appears you have never grappled or trained/faced a Expericend Grappler...You need to realize how good EGs are, Bart you need to face one.



I could say you've never faced a good striker and should go find one. But I don't wish you any harm. I would prefer that nobody got in fights and that we all live peacefully. 

But I should tell you that although I have not knowingly faced anyone from the UFC/Pride/Etc, I have fought in the Dog Brothers. I also worked a year or so as a bouncer at a bar popular for "fresh out of jail" parties from Folsom prison almost every weekend night. Those were some mean guys, some fresh off of stints that took up the better part of your life. I think some of them may have fought a little and grappled some.  I have all of my teeth, enough said.

I should also tell you this: fighting is fighting. There are always rules of some sort (either agreed upon or not) and I have respect for grapplers. But grappling is just one method of fighting. It's a part of the arsenal of any good fighter at least in knowing how to combat it. Some people are really good at it. Some people aren't. They compensate in areas that they're better in.


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## J-kid (Jan 15, 2003)

I have done some sparring with good strikers and they happen to know grappling aswell!


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## yilisifu (Jan 15, 2003)

Actually, it's fairly rare to meet an "experienced striker" who does not also have some grappling skill...

   The other thing is that you mentioned that you'd "sparred" with experienced strikers who also had grappling ability...didn't this thread start off in regards to "sparring" and how it is not the same as actual combat?  Yes?

   Here is a sure-fire way to find out if your personal grappling skills work as well as you think they do.

   #1.  Go to the sleaziest part of whatever city you live in and find a real lowlife bar.

   #2. Walk up to the biggest, meanest-looking father-raper you can find and spit in his beer.

   This is guaranteed to produce instant results and a wonderful learning experience.


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## KennethKu (Jan 15, 2003)

You know a grappler is going to shoot for your mid lower trunk. If you stand there, you are going down.  Of course you would want to jump out of his way or side step. And then give him a good whack on his back/side head.  HEck, isn't this the basic in Aikido? (hmmm, minus the whack on the head).   

Whether you know grappling or not, if you know how grappler comes at you, you should be able to figure out how to deal with it. Like Bart there said, try to compensate for your weakness.

Practice your footwork: Jump sideway and reverse punch. Take up Aikido


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## Astra (Jan 15, 2003)

Note: It isn't easy to actually catch a punch. Have you ever heard the phrase "The hand is quicker then the eye" ? Well, it's possible to punch faster then some people could even see it, much less act upon it.


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## Zujitsuka (Jan 15, 2003)

I'm with you Astra on it not being easy to catch a punch.  A boxer's jab is a quick weapon.  It can't be as easily redirected or caught like a lunge punch.  Besides, if you don't spar, you'll never even come close to developing a good defense.

I hope everyone moves away from the 'grappling vs. striking' argument.  Here is a quote I read in one of Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming (Shaolin Chin-Na book series) books that stuck in my mind:

"Chin-na (i.e. joint manipulations) can defeat wrestling, and striking defeats Chin-na, but wrestling can defeat striking."

These 3 types of martial techniques have a checks and balances system - no one is better or more powerful than the next.

The bottom line is that it is up to the individual and the TIMING of employing a martial tactic (whether it be a joint lock, and tackle, or a punch) rather than the actual tactic itself.

Peace & blessings,


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## KennethKu (Jan 15, 2003)

No no no. You got it all wrong.  You see, IronHand training can beat all three!  .  Heck, when you can break anything you punch or slap, you can simply parry your way to victory!     (*sigh* forgive me for being juvenile here.)


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## Matt Stone (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *You know a grappler is going to shoot for your mid lower trunk. If you stand there, you are going down.  Of course you would want to jump out of his way or side step. And then give him a good whack on his back/side head.  HEck, isn't this the basic in Aikido? (hmmm, minus the whack on the head).
> 
> Whether you know grappling or not, if you know how grappler comes at you, you should be able to figure out how to deal with it. Like Bart there said, try to compensate for your weakness.
> ...



Like the UFC example I gave to Judo-kid upthread - when the grappler grabs you around your waist, keep your composure and elbow the dogsh*t out of the back of his head and neck.  That should make him think twice about playing cuddly with you next time...  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Marginal (Jan 15, 2003)

Of course the UFC banned that manuver in order to better replicate the conditions of a real fight.


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## J-kid (Jan 15, 2003)

There are other fights that happen still with no rules.

Anyways member back in those days That wrestler that royce got with a trangle choke in ufc 3 or 4.  Well why didnt the strikers stop him/:ubercool:


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## Matt Stone (Jan 15, 2003)

If it commercial and there is money to be made by prostituting the controlled violence between two people, you can bet your bippy there will be rules...

Specifically, rules to allow the event to occur (in accordance with local laws and ordinances, to include making the local boxing associations happy, since they usually control pugilistic entertainment in most states), rules to deal with limitations on bodily injury (is it sport entertainment or illegal assault?), rules to deal with potential accidents (liability waivers to cover the eventuality of one participant causing crippling or lethal injury to the others).

UFC, Pride, K-1, Pancrase...  All chock full of rules and limitations on what techniques are allowed.  The athletes that train for such competitive venues train for those venues, _not_ for street combat, since street combat (having little in the way of referees or rules) is different from fighting in a ring for some kind of compensation...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## yilisifu (Jan 15, 2003)

I remember when the Gracies offered an open challenge to ALL martial artists in a well-known magazine.  Nobody responded.  The next thing I knew, they'd put together a "no-holds barred" competition....

   I saw one which featured some kenpo guy who had to weigh in at around 425 at least.  He had to stick a leg out once ina while to see if he was walking or rolling.  They touted him as "one of the top kenpo practicioners in the U.S."  I never heard of him...nor had anyone else.

   Then came the Japanese guy who practiced karate and who they claimed was a "legend" in Japan.  Another guy nobody had ever heard of.....

   And there was the American youngster who was "one of the top kung-fu instructors" in the nation.  As Nat'l Chairman of the largest kung-fu organization in the U.S., I would have known such a person but I'd never heard of this kid.

   And guess what?  THEY ALL GOT BEAT!  Not too awfully strange, considering the Gracies owned the event, lock, stock, and barrel......

   I watched the Gracie grappler move in with some funky kicks that probably would have broken his toes against the opponent's shin if he'd made contact (which he didn't)...I watched him apply an arm bar with the guy's hand right next to his gonads...but the guy did nothing.  I saw Royce in all kinds of positions wherein his opponent could have easily slipped a hand into a pressure point and squeezed or thrust (or crushed his testicles), but nobody did anything....they just laid there until they finally submitted!

   Not too surprising, considering who owned the event.....

   Such competitions prove absolutely nothing.  Yiliquan1 is right; each state has a Boxing Commission which handles ALL pugilistic events and they tend to be VERY persnickety when it comes to what can and can't be allowed.  They're worried about legalities; criminal negligence (allowing or encouraging criminal assault), lawsuits (waivers mean nothing) and the like.

   To find out firsthand if what you do works, take my advice which I gave previously.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *Yiliquan1 is right; each state has a Boxing Commission which handles ALL pugilistic events and they tend to be VERY persnickety when it comes to what can and can't be allowed.  They're worried about legalities; criminal negligence (allowing or encouraging criminal assault), lawsuits (waivers mean nothing) and the like.*



It is my understanding that the conflicts between local laws and local boxing commission requirements and regulations is what keeps the UFC and other copy cat events confined to certain states...


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## yilisifu (Jan 16, 2003)

That's true.  And it's why UFC and similar events are not truly "no holds barred."

   Thus, not real combat.

   Nice Speedos, though.

   Kind of like WWF without the soap-opera plots.


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## J-kid (Jan 16, 2003)

They used to be and there are still a few but hard to find and offen underground.


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## bob919 (Jan 16, 2003)

i do full contact NHB sparring with a few friends of mine i say NHB but there is no eye gouges groin shots or knee kicks allowed we all want to be able to see walk and have babies
anyway it really hardens you we all train together and we are all exceptional fighters and all pretty evenly matched but i am of course better


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## bob919 (Jan 16, 2003)

we do semi contact two for training we have progressed extremely fast because we have had each other for competition
nothing is better than a good training partner


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