# Increasing Flexibilty - Need Suggestions



## Jade Tigress (Mar 17, 2004)

Hi,

I have a problem with tight muscles. I have never been a highly flexible person to begin with but now I walk around with muscle tension from excercise all the time. I stretch before I excercise every morning and it's difficult/painful to stretch my hamstrings but other muscles feel good when I stretch. 

When I'm done working out I stretch again...it's much easier as the muscles have warmed up but it doesn't last. When I wake up in the morning I'm all tight again. Not only is it uncomfortable feeling like I need to stretch all the time but I'm afraid as I progress in MA it will limit my abilities.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can increase my flexibilty or lenghten my muscles? I know they're tight from excercising but I'm not willing to give up my workouts. I'm normally kind of lanky but noticed that my physique has changed to a more compact type with the increased muscle. 

How can I be strong and supple at the same time?

I appreciate any advice!


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## Zepp (Mar 17, 2004)

I don't think muscles get tighter from exercise, unless you're not doing your cool down stretches for long enough afterwards.

Assuming that you already know how to to stretching, time and patience are really the only other things that you need to gain flexibility.  I'm not naturally flexible myself.  When I was really young, I had short achilles tendons that made walking difficult for a while.  It just took time to stretch them out.  Nowadays, I'm one of the more flexible people in my class.  But that's because I've been stretching regularly since high school.

Oh, and if you didn't already know, exhaling while you stretch will help you to relax your muscles and stretch farther for longer.


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## Tae Kwon Doughboy (Mar 17, 2004)

You may want to consider QiGong. I found I really didn't know how tense I was until I tried it. Now it is part of my morning routine. I stretch at least five minutes every morning and evening too. As a kid I couldn't touch my toes to save my life. After TaiChi and QiGong at 40 I could touch them whenever I want. At 44 I can do things I never dreamed of being able to do including TaeKwonDo!


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## moving target (Mar 17, 2004)

I have had simular problems when recovering from injuries. My solution was to warm up when I woke up and than have a good stretch of the targeted muscle groups. And to do the same through out the day when I had available time (like at lunch time). Than to do it again when I got home and again right before I went to sleep. And if I wasn't at school basicly any time I fealt tence.

Streatching before your muscles are warm won't help you all that much with flexability.

Another thing that helped me was PNF streatching.


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## Black Bear (Mar 17, 2004)

I'm not great at flexibility (I blame genetics) but this is what I hear from those who should know: 

Beginning a workout, roll your joints gently, rather than stretch. 

Stretch after working out, when your muscles are warm and your joints are lubed up. 

Stretch after every hot shower. 

Some folks on here swear by that Kurz "beyond splits" or whatever, and the book "scientific stretching" gets a lot of buzz. I haven't really gotten into it because i don't need to kick people in the head for the things I want out of MA.


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## moving target (Mar 17, 2004)

Almost forgot. For injury recovery massage also helps out a lot.


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## Black Bear (Mar 18, 2004)

Massage is a wonderful thing, and a good investment in health and quality of life. 

moving target, wow I didn't know that expression was from Mao. People usually associate "absorb what is useful, reject what is useless" with Bruce Lee. Did it originate with Mao?


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## lvwhitebir (Mar 18, 2004)

Black Bear said:
			
		

> Some folks on here swear by that Kurz "beyond splits" or whatever, and the book "scientific stretching" gets a lot of buzz. I haven't really gotten into it because i don't need to kick people in the head for the things I want out of MA.



The nice thing about "Stretching Scientifically" is that it tells you things about stretching in general.  It talks about static stretching and dynamic stretching, when to do them and why.  It also goes into good detail about why the order you stretch in is important.  It's a good read even if you have no desire to get to a full split.

- Stretching is an everyday thing.  It's not something that you do and you're set for life.  You will get more limber, but it takes time (similar to strength gain).

- Static stretching (for example sitting down and leaning forward) helps mostly with static flexibility (such as splits).  Dynamic stretching (for example leg raises) mostly help with dynamic flexibility (such as kicking higher).

- Do dynamic stretching before your exercises but *after* 5-10 minutes of warm-up exercises such as jumping rope, jumping jacks, or jogging in place.  Stretching cold muscles isn't as beneficial and can cause injury.  Dynamic stretching is more useful for preparing for activity because it mimics the movements you're more likely to do and it helps to keep the heart rate up to keep in the "warm up" range.

- Do static stretching after your exercise.  Hold for a minimum of 30 seconds and perform multiple "sets."  This works as a great cool down from your exercise and with the warmer muscles you should be a lot more flexible.  Multiple sets help stretch the particular muscles more.

- Do the stretches in a specific order working ancillary muscles before the main muscle.  Don't stretch the hamstring until you've done the back, glutes, calves, and groin.  Limited flexibility in the ancilary muscles means that the main muscle is not getting targeted nearly enough (it's hard to bend forward and work the hamstring with a bad back).

- Stretching in the morning is when you're the tightest, but will give you more benefits throughout the day.  Stretching at night is when you're the most flexible and is great for a daily "cool down."

- Flexibility does wear off a bit, especially when the muscle is inactive.  So you can't stretch at 8:00am and think you're ready for competition at 3:00pm.  You still have to warm up again.

- Be aware of your body.  When you stretch feel where the pull is.  Work that body part even more until it doesn't interfere any longer.  Just because you're bending forward doesn't mean that your hamstring is what's limiting you.  For example, a lot of people try to do a hamstring stretch when they really need to work their backs a lot more first.

WhiteBirch


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 18, 2004)

Hello

One thing that i have noticed that seems to work for me. When i stretch or weight train I concentrate on those areas with my mind. So if i am stretching I look and also think about the area i am stretching. Feeling the muscle, feeling the blood, feeling the flow of energy and flexibility.
I do the same thing when im weight training. I see my muscle being so much larger and stronger. There was an experient i did in the past where i went and just stretched and weight trained no concentration on those areas with my mind.
Then i did another day where i was concentrating on what i was doing, how it was feeling and what i wanted out of it. I found out that i was a lot more productive in my training when i used my mind in it.

Another thing I do is meditate too, release the tention and stress from areas and let it flow out of my body while bringing in new energy, strength and flexibility to replace it.

I hope this helps

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				Sil Lum TigerLady said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I have a problem with tight muscles. I have never been a highly flexible person to begin with but now I walk around with muscle tension from excercise all the time. I stretch before I excercise every morning and it's difficult/painful to stretch my hamstrings but other muscles feel good when I stretch.
> 
> ...


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## Jade Tigress (Mar 18, 2004)

WOW. There is a ton of excellent advice in these posts. There are several things I was unaware of as far as stretching. I just always feel like my muscles are tense. I will have to be more aware of many things as I stretch..such as the order I stretch in, breathing properly, and focusing on the area I'm stretching.

I definitely have to get the book "Scientific Stretching". Apparently my current methods are not very scientific at all! Just a hodge podge of stretching. I am careful and I haven't pulled anything...the benefits just don't seem to last so I always feel tense....I feel I could use a daily body massage I'm so tense all the time. 

Thank you all soooo much for the advice. If anyone has more to add please do! I need all the help I can get! LOL


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 18, 2004)

Actually, i try to get a massage after i workout. If I am weight training, running, practicing martial arts, or anything where im very active. It helps in recouperating. I can really use it after weights training. I do my cardio cool down and then my stretches with a nice light massage after................ahh now that feels good.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


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## TonyM. (Mar 19, 2004)

Hatha yoga does it for me.


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## ShaolinWolf (Mar 19, 2004)

Well here's the steps to stretching for me...

1) Stretch for some time before workout
2) Do some stretch kicks here and there during workout
3) Cool down with some stretching

Also, I stretch just about everyday, sometimes in the morning, and sometimes in the afternoon and even in the evenings. Some days, I have MA class 2 times a day and I stretch in the noon class and the evening class.

I've said it before, but I wasn't very flexible at all when I was like 10-12 and younger. Then, I started stretching here and there in my workouts and just for the sake of I wanted to able to do a split. I've stretched here and there over the past 5-6 years and now I'm 17. I have a nice split and I can do just about any kind of stretch and do it nearly to the limit, if that makes sense.

All I can say is it takes time. And patience. And mind over matter type thinking, because I know it hurts, especially when you go beyond your limit with stretching in a split(for guys, yeah, that hurts...), but you'll be surprised in a few years. Patience, my friend, patience...


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## KennethKu (Mar 21, 2004)

TonyM. said:
			
		

> Hatha yoga does it for me.



Avoid yoga stretches that screw with the ligament. Those are harmful. You don't wanna stretch your ligament. They don't stretch well. Proper stretching is about resetting the stretch reflex, not about elongating the muscle nor about screwing around with the ligament.


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## TonyM. (Mar 21, 2004)

Good points. That's why I suggested Hatha Yoga. All stretches are with bent joints.


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## Black Bear (Mar 21, 2004)

Ken, how do we spot which stretches are doing the tendons? I don't really know joint anatomy. Is there some general rules?


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## KennethKu (Mar 22, 2004)

There is no need to stretch the ligaments to perform even the most advanced gymnastic and martial art skills.

1. Don't screw with the anatomical function of the joints, ie. don't make them bend in ways they are not built to.

2. If you feel discomfort or pain in the joint, then you are most likely stretching the ligaments.

For further info:  www.dragondoor.com ,  Relax into Stretch, by Pavel Tsatsourine. Highly recommended.


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## Jade Tigress (Mar 22, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Avoid yoga stretches that screw with the ligament. Those are harmful. You don't wanna stretch your ligament. They don't stretch well. Proper stretching is about resetting the stretch reflex, not about elongating the muscle nor about screwing around with the ligament.


 
I had NO idea about not stretching the ligaments or elongating the muscle. I was under the impression that my muscles had shortened (for lack of a better word) or kind of remained contracted from excercise. Now I know better. Thanks for this information. 

There is so much good advice on this from everyone. I am definitely not feeling as tight as I was all the time. I'm feeling the stretchs I'm doing are more effective because of the changes I've made from the advice you've all given.

I haven't changed the stretches I'm doing just the way I'm doing them and the order I'm doing them in. It's amazing how much those small changes have impacted the effectiveness of my stretching. 

You guys are awesome! Thanks!


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## drunken mistress (Mar 22, 2004)

I agree on Yoga. Also watch cats and take lessons. They spend a lot of time stretching. I think it´s down to lots of warm up exercises. Sometimes using the weight of a limb to stretch slowly works well in things like touching toes or bending to the side. I started karate at 48 (now 49) but had no real problem with high kicks thanks to Yoga and my cat´s exercise tips. One exercise that also seemed to get my kicks higher was to get a partner to raise one of my legs as high as possible while I´m standing sideways to a wall. Then I had to imagine my leg was very heavy then light alternately. As you think light the muscles relax and your leg goes higher.


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## Pilot (Mar 23, 2004)

Every one has their own ideas about stretching and flexibilty, I'm sure every  suggestion has a great deal of merit.  Here are my thoughts and ideas on the matter.

Most of the stretching exercises reach a point that it will trigger a "stretch reflex" meaning that the muscles are stretched to the point that the nerves are stretched, the natural reaction is to pull back and resist the stretching process.

The solution is to combine stretchign along with breathing exercises.  When your body is stretched and the muscles tense, inhale as much as you can without letting hte boyd rise or allowing the muscles to shorten.  Then exhale, relax and take up the slack to increase the amount of stretch.  This results in a natural method, without harm to the muscles or the nerves.

This method will allow you to stretch beyond what you thought was possible This method will not only help with toning your muscles but minimizes potential damage to the muscle or nerves that could occur with more conventional stretching techniques.  

When Combining this with exercise, it is wise to simply limber the muscles before exercising.  Think of this as warming and greasing the joints and after exercise stretch out the muscles.


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## Tae Kwon Doughboy (May 16, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> There is no need to stretch the ligaments to perform even the most advanced gymnastic and martial art skills.
> 
> 1. Don't screw with the anatomical function of the joints, ie. don't make them bend in ways they are not built to.
> 
> ...



Just ordered and received the Relax into Stretch book and DVD Thursday and I can already see progress. Thanks for the recommendation.


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## Sarah (Jul 25, 2004)

I find dynamic stretching for a couple of min's in the morning helpful.

I have been wanting to try yoga for a while now and I have just ordered a DVD from Amazon called Yoga for Martial Arts which I am looking forward to getting, will let you know what it is like.


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 25, 2004)

All great advise!I especially like Chicago Green Dragons about using your mind.It works for me,at least"I think" it works! LOL.Sil Lum TigerLady,I'm very suprised that you have flexability issues.Guys,I have had the pleasure of feasting my eyes on her,and let me tell you,she has one of the prettiest slender figures I have ever seen!Don't tell your bettter half I said that!I wouldn't want him to get the wrong idea,just telling it how it is.I think your instructor Master Lang should have some good sugestions about relaxation and stretching.


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 26, 2004)

Thanks again for all the helpful suggestions.
Hi Sarah, welcome, I'll be interested to hear what you think of the Yoga for MA's DVD. Please post an update when you get it. 

Gary, you're making me blush...
The relaxation thing that Chicago Green Dragon and you have mentioned is good to keep in mind as I think alot of the muscle tension had to do with some stress at the time. 

By following all the great suggestions that tension has been released and my muscles look and feel like they used too...the stretch reflex has been reset. Now I feel the muscle mass has relaxed and is not bunched up all the time. Feels muuuch better!


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 9, 2004)

Kurz's "Stretching Scientifically" is indeed an effective program.  The isometrics are painful and can add an inch or so of muscle to your thighs...but it works.

Sadly, when he came out with his first book and tape (the latter was boring beyond belief) he failed to mention some key things about positioning of the pelvis, core strength development in the back, etc.  He addressed these later in subsequent editions of the book and tape (which was much more entertaining the second time around).

After starting the exercises (as mentioned in the first book) I developed a severe sacro-ilial dysfunction.  I finally got it cleared up, and have yet to go back to stretches.  I never determined that the exercises caused this, and have no evidence to indicate they did.  Still...make sure your pelvis is tilted properly when doing the side splits...and build up that core strength.  Doing the exercises with less intensity can be effective, too.

It was an effective program, and I plan on trying it out again once the knee heals.

Regards,

Steve


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## Kenpo Mama (Aug 9, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> I find dynamic stretching for a couple of min's in the morning helpful.
> 
> I have been wanting to try yoga for a while now and I have just ordered a DVD from Amazon called Yoga for Martial Arts which I am looking forward to getting, will let you know what it is like.


Hey Sarah,

Sorry i didn't see your post earlier,  I believe i have the video you are talking about.  Although there are two different videos with similar names.  The one i have is by Dawn Lesinski.   I am a Yoga Alliance registered and certified yoga instructor and teach yoga on a daily basis as well as being a martial arts practitioner and instructor.  I found this tape useful, and the postures to be the standard seen in most general hatha yoga classes.  If you are beginning a yoga practice, then this tape would be fine.  I found the flow a little distracting presentation wise because they would keep stopping and introduce a new posture and then show it in sequence.  But at the end they kind of put it all together. 

As part of my own black belt thesis i did a yoga video for martial artists, that incorporated yoga stretches to meet the needs of ma's in terms of flexibility, balance, strength and focus.  I referenced postures in terms of their ability to aid in kicking, stances, core strength and stability and shoulder flexibility.  If you have any questions, please feel free to ask or pm me.  I also highly recommend you visit the website at Yogajournal.com to review any yoga postures that you may need further information on.  I hope you enjoy the amazon video.

Kenpo Mama  :ultracool


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## Kenpo Mama (Aug 29, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> I find dynamic stretching for a couple of min's in the morning helpful.
> 
> I have been wanting to try yoga for a while now and I have just ordered a DVD from Amazon called Yoga for Martial Arts which I am looking forward to getting, will let you know what it is like.


Hi Sarah,  

Just came back to this thread and wanted to know if you got a chance to view the Yoga for Martial Arts dvd?  How is it working out?

Donna


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## Sarah (Aug 29, 2004)

Kenpo Mama said:
			
		

> Hi Sarah,
> 
> Just came back to this thread and wanted to know if you got a chance to view the Yoga for Martial Arts dvd? How is it working out?
> 
> Donna


The DVD is really good...however if you have done Yoga before it would be to basic. I would defiantly recommend it if you just wonted to do a bit of Yoga stretching on the side.

I have actually started going to Yoga classes as well.

I am not one of the 'flexible people' at our Dojo so it has been something I have been working on for a while. I had to giggle when my Yoga Instructor told me I have a very flexible body.. So I got a bit of a reality check, I may not be flexible in TKD standards but for an average person I am very flexible.


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## Kenpo Mama (Aug 29, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> The DVD is really good...however if you have done Yoga before it would be to basic. I would defiantly recommend it if you just wonted to do a bit of Yoga stretching on the side.
> 
> I have actually started going to Yoga classes as well.
> 
> I am not one of the 'flexible people' at our Dojo so it has been something I have been working on for a while. I had to giggle when my Yoga Instructor told me I have a very flexible body.. So I got a bit of a reality check, I may not be flexible in TKD standards but for an average person I am very flexible.


That's great Sarah, if you go back upthread you'll see that i pretty much practice yoga on a daily basis.  You may be flexible in different areas of the body, so i might not be just your hips that the yoga instructor is looking at.  

Keep working the standing poses like warrior 2 and extended side angle and the pigeon poses and your pre-splits and seated angle poses for maximum flexibility in the hips, to work up to those splits for tkd - you'll notice a big difference with some diligent practice.

What type of yoga classes are you going to?

Donna


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## Sarah (Aug 29, 2004)

Iyengar Yoga.


I dont know the different Type's...I just found an Instructor that had a class on the day I had a morning free.

I only go once a week at the moment, but am quite enjoying it so will proberbly try and pick up another class.


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## Kenpo Mama (Aug 29, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> Iyengar Yoga.
> 
> 
> I dont know the different Type's...I just found an Instructor that had a class on the day I had a morning free.
> ...


Iyengar is terrific, perfect for beginners and seasoned practitioners alike.  You will learn proper alignment principles and get a great stretch and workout to boot!  2-3 times a week is recommended (i have some students that go 5-6 times a week).  It is difficult to get more than two classes a week in when you are working or schooling and also practicing martial arts, so it sounds like you're doing well.  If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.  

Donna


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## gumo9 (Sep 4, 2004)

hello everyone

Just thought I'd chip in to this one. I've not seen the book "scientific stretching" but it sounds really good. Just a couple of points to back up what has already been said and a few to add....

Dynamic stretching is really good after warm-up (as mentioned before) and should be done in a controlled manner. This is where it really differs from ballistic stretching. Another good thing about dynamic stretching is that you can make it specific to your activity, ie. _controlled_ kicking, punching or rotating type movements that are similar to the techniques of your art.

Recent research suggests that static stretching _before_ exercise could actually _increase_ your risk of injury. Static stretching should be done after exercise as it prepares the muscle for rest (as opposed to dynamic stretching which prepares you for activity). As a general guideline, hold a static stretch for 10 seconds for maintainence stretching and 3 sets of 15 seconds or more for developmental stretching.

PNF stretches (Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation) usually yield excellent results and you can do these with a partner after training. Get your partner to take a limb to it's point of bind (the point where the limb has reached the limit of its range of movement). You then push against your partner with that limb for 15 seconds or so. You then relax and your partner eases off the stretch. Your partner then takes the limb to its new improved point of bind and you repeat the activity a couple of times.

Mobility exercises in the morning are great. While we are asleep we tend not to use our joints much so the body doesn't lubricate them. Move your arms and legs about when you get up and the body will start producing synovial fluid to lubricate the joints, so we loosen up nicely after the initial morning stiffness.

Somebody earlier mentioned quite rightly about not trying to stretch ligaments. Yep, spot on ! we also need to think about the type of joint we are stretching too - the shoulder joint for example is a very mobile joint and therefore quite unstable. a good deal of the shoulder joint's active and passive stability relies on muscles and tendons so stretching these too much could result in injuries.

Finally, about stretching the ancillaries first before the main muscle.... I'd love to have a read of the book as this sounds interesting.

Just my 2 peneth. I've realy enjoyed reading these posts,

seeya

Graham
Manchester, UK


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## Marginal (Sep 5, 2004)

http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/Stretching.FAQ.txt

Comprehensive, but almost more info than anyone actually needs on the subject of stretching.


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## AnimEdge (Sep 6, 2004)

Here is something i read through and found to be rather helpfull
http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch1.html


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## bobster_ice (Dec 1, 2005)

listen, your doing it all wrong, excersize and then stretch, u need to warm your body up before you stretch

I hope my advice helps.


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## Shirt Ripper (Dec 1, 2005)

bobster_ice said:
			
		

> listen, your doing it all wrong, excersize and then stretch, u need to warm your body up before you stretch
> 
> I hope my advice helps.


 
Or, warm up-stretch-exercise-stretch.  Many earlier posts mentioned being "warm" first.

This is an excellent thread...should archived or something.  Thanks Hardhead and other for the break down of "Stretching Scientifically" as I've been curious of that book for some time.


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## samurai69 (Dec 2, 2005)

Its important to warm up first.<<<<<<<<<<<<THE MOST IMPORTANT BIT

then try PNF and MET stretches .... these will improve flexibility faster than most forms of stretching as they help fool the stretch reflex (golgi tendon)

What Pavel says is excellent advice too

there is a form of dynamic stretching (do after PNF) that will help you mantain 80+% of increased flexibility throughout the day (might have been mentioned in "scientific stretching"


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 2, 2005)

ok, heres the dumb question:
What constitutes a warm up?


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## arnisador (Dec 2, 2005)

Just getting moving. Jog, skip rope, jumping jacks, play tag...anything.


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## Shirt Ripper (Dec 2, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> ok, heres the dumb question:
> What constitutes a warm up?


 
Two basic types: General, Specific.  The purpose of both is to increase core body temperature (if you break a sweat you should be good), increase heart rate, increase blood flow to the muscles/joints, in the specific warm-up the increase in blood flow and "joint lubing" will be area specific.

Always warm-up for physical activity (includes stretching) unless what you are training for does not allow for that.


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## bobster_ice (Dec 5, 2005)

warm up intil ur tierd....very tierd, and then stretch


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