# Boxing/MMA Gym Disses Traditional Martial Arts



## KageKat (Feb 20, 2020)

Hi all. Newbie here. Been on and off with martial arts for the last 3 decades, mostly with traditional martial arts. Honestly I am not sure how much I will be posting here, but I really wanted some feedback regarding a situation that occurred this week:

I recently started doing boxing at a boxing/MMA gym, and quite liked it. However, I shared a video on their chat group recently (this one more specifically: 



), thinking I'd get some decent feedback. Instead I was bombarded by comments like "this is horse ****" and "thanks, that made me laugh" and "you lost me at full contact KARATE LOL". To make it worse one of the comments was from the OWNER of the gym. Now I am really not sure about continuing at this place, as I found their actions VERY disrespectful and childish. What do you think?


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 21, 2020)

Ok welcome to MT.

Where do you think kickboxing came from? You posted a video purporting to be 'applying kickboxing techniques to karate' but that's where the techniques came from in the first place. Kickboxing evolved from full contact karate with a touch of boxing and Muay Thai but all techniques are found in karate anyway so the video is the wrong way round.

Having said that the MMA v TMA stuff has been going on a long while, just like style v style has with everyone wanting to push their style as being better than anyone elses. What you do about it is basically up to you, whether you want to stay or not, there is going to be little you can do about their attitudes so go or stay, up to you.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 21, 2020)

I feel like the guy in the video is flailing his arms, but its not worse than some kickboxing videos ive seen, and the drills are super similar. Like tez said, kickboxing came from karate, which means those people are showing their ignorance laughing at the concept of full contact karate.

I know personally I wouldn't stick around a gym where the owner (if hes also the head instructor and not just financial) was making those comments on a facebook page. But that's just me. Again, like tez said, nothing will change if you leave, so its a matter if you want to tolerate it/be around that culture.


----------



## JR 137 (Feb 21, 2020)

They’ve obviously never heard of Kyokushin karate, or didn’t realize the kanji on the back wall says Kyokushin.

Nothing you say or do is likely to change anyone’s mind. If it bothers you that much, leave. IMO it’s like talking politics; it’s best to keep your opinions to yourself rather than discuss it. Everyone’s somehow strongly set in their ways and nothing anyone says is going to change anyone’s opinion. Politics aren’t worth losing relationships over, and neither is the traditional MA vs whatever you call it debate.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 21, 2020)

KageKat said:


> Hi all. Newbie here. Been on and off with martial arts for the last 3 decades, mostly with traditional martial arts. Honestly I am not sure how much I will be posting here, but I really wanted some feedback regarding a situation that occurred this week:
> 
> I recently started doing boxing at a boxing/MMA gym, and quite liked it. However, I shared a video on their chat group recently (this one more specifically:
> 
> ...



Welcome to the forum @KageKat.

I fully concur with all the good advise you have been given. 

There is a 'cultural' mentality in MMA which pushes the narrative that it is the Only thing that works. That is has stripped away any ineffective techniques thereby making it the only effective system. This MMA narrative completely discludes any narrative that says ALL MMA techniques originated from various TMA's. It has really stoked the MMA/TMA fire for many. 
Sadly, this appears to be the predominant mentality in MMA schools/gyms. From a traditional perspective there is no Do and I suspect they would again laugh at the mention of it. 

So, it comes down to what kind of workout environment you want to be in. And of course the number of class/style choices you have. 
I suspect If you stay with the MMA class you will hear much of the same for a long time. And they will strongly push their narrative until you simply leave or conform to their way of thinking. 
I have a lot of problem with the latter. Not of conformity itself; it is usually a good thing. When conformity is used to push an incorrect or incomplete agenda, it really goes off the rails.

Hopefully you will stay in touch and let us know how things progress.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 21, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> There is a 'cultural' mentality in MMA which pushes the narrative that it is the Only thing that works.




In some MMA places not all, many do appreciate TMA and look to it for new techniques. I train both TMA and MMA and have seen the disrespect from both sides, I've also seen MT practitioners slag off MMA, TKD slag off karate etc etc, it's human nature to want to be seen to be doing the 'best' style, and it's their loss if they don't see there's something to learn from all styles.


----------



## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

This is the attitude of what I call "MMA Jocks" or "the MMA cult."  That's not to say that all people in MMA think this way.  If you are an MMA fighter and show respect to other martial arts, I don't consider you part of this group.  

The fact is that MMA is the best method we have available for testing martial arts techniques and methods.  Competition breeds excellence.  You don't win championships by being a mediocre boxer.  If you take boxing, your goal is to get good enough at punching and not being punched to win competitions.  When you go to a competition, there's two possibilities - you win, or you learn.  This is why the MMA Jocks have specific martial arts they credit as being worthwhile, most notably those that have a high involvement in MMA.  Those arts are typically:

Boxing
Kickboxing
Muay Thai
Sambo
Wrestling
Judo
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (not Japanese Jiu-Jitsu)
Kyokushin Karate
Taekwondo (but only for kicks, and only once you already have a punching and grappling art)
They either ignore, reject, or ridicule all other arts.  They don't have any respect for the traditional punching style of Taekwondo or Karate.  They have no respect at all for Kung Fu.  They have no respect at all for self-defense systems like Systema, Krav Maga, or Hapkido.  If it's not in competition, they don't respect it.

I said MMA is the best method we have available for testing arts.  I stand by that and believe it.  However, that doesn't mean that the other arts don't teach quality technique.  If someone disrespects traditional arts, they may have useful information on what works in MMA, but I don't consider them to be a reliable source of wisdom.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 21, 2020)

Speaking as someone who comes largely from a Muay Thai/BJJ/MMA background, I can say that the technique in the video is solid. It's Kyokushin karate, which is known for full-contact competition. A number of successful MMA fighters, such as Georges St Pierre, come from a Kyokushin background. 

For that matter, some of the combinations and drills shown are ones I've learned from boxing coaches.

Honestly, if your MMA coach can't recognize what's being shown here then I'd be somewhat suspicious of how well he even understands MMA.


----------



## Headhunter (Feb 21, 2020)

Yeah you pretty much got it....childish and disrespectful. Sadly a fair few Mma gyms have this petty mentality (not all of them before people jump down my throat but I've certainly seen a fair amount of them)

To me if you run a school and have to go out your way to put down other styles that shows me insecurity. They have to try and prove themselves and dismiss anything apart from what they do. A good coach is someone who respects everyone and everything. Yes there's a lot of bad karate/ taekwondo or whatever out there. But equally there's a lot of bad Mma out there...I've seen shows where the fighters are at about high school playground level fighting ability. Can't believe that nonsense is still going on. Especially with UFC fighters like GSP, Stephen Thompson, lyoto machida, Anthony Pettis, Raymond Daniels, Michael venom page all high level Mma fighters who have trained in traditional styles.

Again it's their own weaknesses and insecurities showing. I wouldn't waste my time with anyone like that.


----------



## KageKat (Feb 25, 2020)

Thanks for the feedback and advice guys. Most of it was really useful. I'm honestly really torn between continuing going or stopping going to the gym. On the one hand I've always wanted to do boxing, mainly because it's (in my opinion) one of the best forms of exercise, plus my grandfather (rest his soul) was a provincial boxing champion in his prime and I have always been interested to try it out but have never gotten the opportunity until recently. Also I can just go, and work out on my own time, at my own pace (unlike some gyms I've gone to in the past), without feeling pressured to follow any particular set of rules/beliefs, to be "cool" and be one with the crowd.

On the other hand though I feel disappointed, as, apart from just going to exercise, I was also looking for a community of people to join, who shared a similar interest in martial arts, but to my dismay it seems like they are more into just pure fighting if I've been reading their comments to one another correctly ("looking forward to beating the crap out of someone at this weekend's fight club").

I guess I was just really happy that I thought I had found a place, as the town I live in is REALLY small and there's basically no other options regarding martial arts training here. Am really feeling bummed about this to be honest


----------



## drop bear (Feb 25, 2020)

You realise you don't have to agree with every opinion of every person you train with?

My coach is against pinaple on pizza. So while he is basically a monster. I can still learn martial arts off him.

Otherwise I know a few guys from what is basically karate that are smashing it in MMA at the moment. It is not really about labels. It is about results.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 25, 2020)

KageKat said:


> Thanks for the feedback and advice guys. Most of it was really useful. I'm honestly really torn between continuing going or stopping going to the gym. On the one hand I've always wanted to do boxing, mainly because it's (in my opinion) one of the best forms of exercise, plus my grandfather (rest his soul) was a provincial boxing champion in his prime and I have always been interested to try it out but have never gotten the opportunity until recently. Also I can just go, and work out on my own time, at my own pace (unlike some gyms I've gone to in the past), without feeling pressured to follow any particular set of rules/beliefs, to be "cool" and be one with the crowd.
> 
> On the other hand though I feel disappointed, as, apart from just going to exercise, I was also looking for a community of people to join, who shared a similar interest in martial arts, but to my dismay it seems like they are more into just pure fighting if I've been reading their comments to one another correctly ("looking forward to beating the crap out of someone at this weekend's fight club").
> 
> I guess I was just really happy that I thought I had found a place, as the town I live in is REALLY small and there's basically no other options regarding martial arts training here. Am really feeling bummed about this to be honest


Do you think some of the comments are the "ignorance of youth"? Regardless, I would suggest not using social media for the same outlet and just workout with the group for a while and see if the actions match the comments (actions louder than words). Especially since you options are limited. We live in a small town so I can relate. 
If they act like they are talking then yes, it sounds like you are in a bad crowd.


----------



## KageKat (Feb 26, 2020)

drop bear said:


> You realise you don't have to agree with every opinion of every person you train with?
> 
> *My coach is against pinaple on pizza*. So while he is basically a monster. I can still learn martial arts off him.
> 
> Otherwise I know a few guys from what is basically karate that are smashing it in MMA at the moment. It is not really about labels. It is about results.



To be fair EVERYONE should be against pineapple on pizza in my personal opinion


----------



## Buka (Feb 26, 2020)

Welcome to Martial Talk, KageKat.

Maybe give the place a shot, see how it goes. Maybe you’ll be surprised.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 26, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Y
> My coach is against pinaple on pizza.



He is correct. Pineapple on pizza is an abomination. As is squeezing the toothpaste from the top.


----------



## KageKat (Feb 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> Welcome to Martial Talk, KageKat.
> 
> Maybe give the place a shot, see how it goes. Maybe you’ll be surprised.



Thanks Buka. Actually went for a month already (January). Enjoyed it. Was unable to go this month due to finances. Was planning on starting up again from March.


----------



## _Simon_ (Feb 26, 2020)

G'day mate, welcome to the forum 

Agree with alot of the responses above. I can understand your sense of conflict and feelings about this for sure... It's unfortunate that that attitude exists, but sometimes it's unavoidable. No matter where you go there'll be some narrow minded or funny beliefs, but when it comes to the training that you all get together for, sometimes that falls by the wayside, and it doesn't matter anymore.

I know our branch chief in my previous karate style really thought that most other karate styles and even TKD were "rubbish", but the group I trained with were all awesome and it didn't change how he ran the branch. It was unfortunate, but that aside it didn't affect anything else. And I'm the same, that did put me off a bit, but yeah it didn't affect who I trained with nor the training.

And there are also alot of things I don't talk about with other martial artists and other people too, as it's maybe a bit woowoo haha, so I just save it for those who I can discuss it with, rather than force it onto them and think "they should really be thinking about this stuff!!!"

I say keep training there for the moment, and only if it actually becomes a hindering factor there (AND if it reflects in their actual training attitude, disrespect etc) and unbearable you can leave. It sounds like you really enjoy training there . Keep us posted!

And you can always chat with us guys about the other MA stuff too .


----------



## KageKat (Feb 26, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> G'day mate, welcome to the forum
> 
> Agree with alot of the responses above. I can understand your sense of conflict and feelings about this for sure... It's unfortunate that that attitude exists, but sometimes it's unavoidable. No matter where you go there'll be some narrow minded or funny beliefs, but when it comes to the training that you all get together for, sometimes that falls by the wayside, and it doesn't matter anymore.
> 
> ...


Ta mate


----------



## drop bear (Feb 26, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> He is correct. Pineapple on pizza is an abomination. As is squeezing the toothpaste from the top.



Yo people are heathens.


----------



## Buka (Feb 26, 2020)

Pineapple on pizza is pretty damn good. And pizza isn't technically a food anyway. It's a medicine.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> Pineapple on pizza is pretty damn good. And pizza isn't technically a food anyway. It's a medicine.



Like chicken soup?


----------



## Buka (Feb 26, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Like chicken soup?



Not as good as chicken soup. But then, there's not many things I can think of that are as fine as a good chicken soup. I'm making one tomorrow, maybe even tonight.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> Pineapple on pizza is pretty damn good. And pizza isn't technically a food anyway. It's a medicine.


Just make sure you don’t start putting spam on pizza


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Just make sure you don’t start putting spam on pizza




You had to do it didn't you!


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 26, 2020)

I’ve had @Buka ‘s chicken soup.  It is killer.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 26, 2020)

KageKat said:


> thinking I'd get some decent feedback.


My experience is that it's better to post from the perspective of sharing knowledge or expanding knowledge by asking questions,  than to post simply because you think you will get good feedback.  Posting and expecting good feedback will almost always backfire on you at some point regardless of where you are.   I know I would be really depressed had I posted my videos here with the intent of getting good feedback.

People are going to have their own perspective of things. That perspective usually doesn't change unless you can show that the results can be repeated or demonstrated in light to hard sparring.  Even then, there will be people who have their doubts about the technique.   

I also agree with Tony (below).  Regardless of what a person train, after a person reaches a certain level of fighting knowledge, they should be able to recognize what's being shown even if it's being demonstrated from the perspective of "application theory."  That person should be able to see working concepts similar to what they may use in the system that they train.  



Tony Dismukes said:


> Honestly, if your MMA coach can't recognize what's being shown here then I'd be somewhat suspicious of how well he even understands MMA.



For example, there are multiple ways to slip a jab and to counter with punches. Different slips allow different types of counters. I always like showing Mike Tyson because alot of what he did are either the same concepts or similar concepts that are found in Traditional Martial Arts punching and footwork.


----------

