# How Wing Chun is supposed to look...in my book



## Marnetmar

Obviously catching someone's kick is out of the picture, but still. Hawkins Cheung is probably one of the best WC masters alive.


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## Danny T

Agreed on Hawkins. Excellent WC.
On catching someone's kick being out of the picture. Happens often in Muay Thai but I don't support the manner he does in this video. You do realize this was a demo and not a full out attack? Like the very weak shoot to simulate a take-down attempt and the pulling of punches and his kick.


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## Hanzou

Yeah, its a demo.....

Let's see this guy fight in a cage and pull that stuff off. *That* would be impressive.


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## LFJ

Yeah, what do you mean by "out of the picture"? Just not in your Wing Chun? Catching kicks is not at all impractical. Muay Thai, Sanda...

However, there's no way this little guy would step into a hopping sidekick and just take it on his chest without getting his ribs crushed. Even a bigger guy wouldn't be able to do that against anyone with powerful kicks. Timing would never make it a good idea.

There was a whole lot of theatrics in this clip.


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## Transk53

LFJ said:


> Yeah, what do you mean by "out of the picture"? Just not in your Wing Chun? Catching kicks is not at all impractical. Muay Thai, Sanda...
> 
> However, there's no way this little guy would step into a hopping sidekick and just take it on his chest without getting his ribs crushed. Even a bigger guy wouldn't be able to do that against anyone with powerful kicks. Timing would never make it a good idea.
> 
> There was a whole lot of theatrics in this clip.



Well yeah. Think you are being a tad harsh. It is clearly a demo after all. It would be theatrical. The big fella with any intent, would have tried to pick him up.


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## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, its a demo.....
> 
> Let's see this guy fight in a cage and pull that stuff off. *That* would be impressive.



That would actually be quite interesting as a overall idea.


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## Marnetmar

Danny T said:


> Like the very weak shoot to simulate a take-down attempt and the pulling of punches and his kick.



Agreed. It bothers the hell out of me when you have someone shoot in from like fifty feet away to simulate a takedown attempt.


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## Fog565

The guy is clearly using other techniques that aren't typical of WC. Which is not a bad thing. Catching a kick is not out of the question at all. Especially if your opponent isn't a good kicker. Like all demos...its a demo.The man has skill for sure, but I'm certain the situation would be different if it were actual combat.


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## Danny T

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, its a demo.....
> 
> Let's see this guy fight in a cage and pull that stuff off. *That* would be impressive.


Yea that would be impressive being Hawkins is in his seventies!


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## Hanzou

Danny T said:


> Yea that would be impressive being Hawkins is in his seventies!



I'm sure he has plenty of WC students who can take his place.

The point is, everything looks great in demos.


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## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, its a demo.....
> 
> Let's see this guy fight in a cage and pull that stuff off. *That* would be impressive.


To be fair, most of the stuff he's doing here I've seen in MMA bouts. Other than the one-inch punch at the end, what techniques do you find particularly outlandish about this vid?


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## Danny T

Hanzou said:


> I'm sure he has plenty of WC students who can take his place.
> 
> The point is, everything looks great in demos.


Oh, I agree. Already said as much with my question to poster; "you do realize this is a demo."

Hawkins has had some of his student in mma competitions.


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## Jake104

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, its a demo.....
> 
> Let's see this guy fight in a cage and pull that stuff off. *That* would be impressive.


Alan Orrs guys fight in a cage. That's his teachers teacher. Your right that is a demo. But he's one of the few direct IP Man students that teaches real useful structure Or WC IMO.


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## Jake104

Fog565 said:


> *The guy is clearly using other techniques that aren't typical of WC. *Which is not a bad thing. Catching a kick is not out of the question at all. Especially if your opponent isn't a good kicker. Like all demos...its a demo.The man has skill for sure, but I'm certain the situation would be different if it were actual combat.



Your opinion! My opinion is Wing Chun is an art that really is damned if they do and damned if they don't. People, mostly internet armchair warriors have a perception of what it should or shouldn't look like. Without really having any practical experience with the art or fighting in general.

Latter part is a general statement not directed at you personally. I don't know  you and the rest of the post I agree with.


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## Jake104

Machida and Anderson Silva pulled off the crane kick UFC cage . That was impressive! Yeah Bro! Now I gotta go put on my flat bil hat tap out shirt and drive my lifted truck. Yeaaaah broooo!


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## Hanzou

Reeksta said:


> To be fair, most of the stuff he's doing here I've seen in MMA bouts. Other than the one-inch punch at the end, what techniques do you find particularly outlandish about this vid?



You are correct that you see punching, kicking, and throwing in MMA. However Wing Chun is never the style those kicks, punches, and throws are coming from.

Why? I don't know. 

Which is why seeing a WC exponent utilizing those techniques in a dominant fashion in a MMA format would be impressive.


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## Nabakatsu

Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, and many others now ulitize the wing chun front kick.


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## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> You are correct that you see punching, kicking, and throwing in MMA. However Wing Chun is never the style those kicks, punches, and throws are coming from.
> 
> Why? I don't know.
> 
> Which is why seeing a WC exponent utilizing those techniques in a dominant fashion in a MMA format would be impressive.


All the top level guys take a little from any art which will be useful to them these days. Imo wing chun techniques are not as completely absent from MMA as is widely supposed. Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida both use chi sau as part of their training, Frankie Edgar used chain punches a lot earlier in his career, Caol Uno used a variation of bong sau defensively, Forest Griffin and Ronda Rousey are both big fans of using a high man sau to intercept overhand punches and Greg Nelson uses hand trapping principles when training g'n'p strategies to his fighters. Admittedly, with the exeption of Silva, Machida or Nelson, these people may not realise they're doing wing chun . . . but they are.
For a more direct if slightly less high profile example, check out Alan Orr and his Iron Wolves team.


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## Transk53

Nabakatsu said:


> Anderson Silva, Jon Jones, and many others now ulitize the wing chun front kick.



Interesting. Will have to look out for out.


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## Transk53

Reeksta said:


> All the top level guys take a little from any art which will be useful to them these days. Imo wing chun techniques are not as completely absent from MMA as is widely supposed. Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida both use chi sau as part of their training, Frankie Edgar used chain punches a lot earlier in his career, Caol Uno used a variation of bong sau defensively, Forest Griffin and Ronda Rousey are both big fans of using a high man sau to intercept overhand punches and Greg Nelson uses hand trapping principles when training g'n'p strategies to his fighters. Admittedly, with the exeption of Silva, Machida or Nelson, these people may not realise they're doing wing chun . . . but they are.
> For a more direct if slightly less high profile example, check out Alan Orr and his Iron Wolves team.



It continues to amaze me just how many elements of differing arts seem to be not that different if you see what I mean. Either that or MMA fighters are just so adept at picking things up, or just trained that way. Suppose it is all about concepts and what works in the octagon, regardless where that technique came from. Must watch more MMA next year.


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## Reeksta

Transk53 said:


> It continues to amaze me just how many elements of differing arts seem to be not that different if you see what I mean. Either that or MMA fighters are just so adept at picking things up, or just trained that way. Suppose it is all about concepts and what works in the octagon, regardless where that technique came from. Must watch more MMA next year.


Absolutely. Increasingly I'm finding myself moving away from a 'style v style' mindset and instead concluding that there are simply certain ideas which work, which tend to appear in some form throughout the entire martial arts spectrum. When I compare the wing chun I'm currently learning to the stuff I learn in wrestling I'm constantly surprised at how similar the central principles and even a lot of the techniques are, and those are two arts that people would not necessarily associate with each other


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## Transk53

Reeksta said:


> Absolutely. Increasingly I'm finding myself moving away from a 'style v style' mindset and instead concluding that there are simply certain ideas which work, which tend to appear in some form throughout the entire martial arts spectrum. When I compare the wing chun I'm currently learning to the stuff I learn in wrestling I'm constantly surprised at how similar the central principles and even a lot of the techniques are, and those are two arts that people would not necessarily associate with each other



Yeah. I was thinking about MA last night and what all of it consists of. I don't have knowledge of the histories of any particular art, but I do wonder if a very long time ago, a few concepts evolved from which the rest followed. Like a basic martial art template if you will. Covering blocks, kicks and strikes etc. Of course though, I would think that it would have been a very long time ago, if there is anything plausible with my thoughts here. I do agree though, style vs style can cause some arguments. The Wing Chun that I am going to do is part of the EWTO Wing Tsun branch or whatever term is applicable. Really not fused about whether it it this linage or that linage etc. Just want to bang on with it.


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## Hanzou

Reeksta said:


> All the top level guys take a little from any art which will be useful to them these days. Imo wing chun techniques are not as completely absent from MMA as is widely supposed. Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida both use chi sau as part of their training, Frankie Edgar used chain punches a lot earlier in his career, Caol Uno used a variation of bong sau defensively, Forest Griffin and Ronda Rousey are both big fans of using a high man sau to intercept overhand punches and Greg Nelson uses hand trapping principles when training g'n'p strategies to his fighters. Admittedly, with the exeption of Silva, Machida or Nelson, these people may not realise they're doing wing chun . . . but they are.
> For a more direct if slightly less high profile example, check out Alan Orr and his Iron Wolves team.



I don't doubt that many fighters have looked into Wing Chun from time to time to see if there's anything to glean from its practice. That really doesn't change my argument above. Heck, fighters also practice Yoga. Are we going to now start counting Yoga as one of their fighting styles they practice?

 You can utilize Chi Sau practice all you want, but if you just end up fighting like a boxer in the end, what was the point? You mention Alan Orr's team. I checked out one of his students Aaron Baum in a MMA fight, and this is what I saw;






Where's the Wing Chun in that? Where's the Chi Sau and the other stuff you mention? I see boxing, kick boxing, Bjj, and wrestling. If someone didn't tell me that guy practiced Wing Chun, I wouldn't have known it.

In comparison, this guy clearly utilizes Wing Chun in this bout;





Fast forward to 1:30, its a quick fight.

Its great to have theories and principles, but if you're tossing them all aside to fight like a standard MMA fighter, what was the point in learning them, or (worse) advertising your background in them in the first place?


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## Tez3




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## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> I don't doubt that many fighters have looked into Wing Chun from time to time to see if there's anything to glean from its practice. That really doesn't change my argument above. Heck, fighters also practice Yoga. Are we going to now start counting Yoga as one of their fighting styles they practice?



So basically you're argument is that any fighter practicing Wing Chun that climbs into the cage, is going to get mullered. Not much of an argument fella, just a statement of what you think. Looking at the latter vid anyway. Unless I have missed what you are getting at.


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## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> I don't doubt that many fighters have looked into Wing Chun from time to time to see if there's anything to glean from its practice. That really doesn't change my argument above. Heck, fighters also practice Yoga. Are we going to now start counting Yoga as one of their fighting styles they practice?


You could say the same about any martial art these days. No top levels guys devote any significant time to individual arts any more, they cherry pick techniques and principles then apply them to the ruleset they're competing within. Some of these have come from wing chun.


Hanzou said:


> Where's the Wing Chun in that? Where's the Chi Sau and the other stuff you mention? I see boxing, kick boxing, Bjj, and wrestling. If someone didn't tell me that guy practiced Wing Chun, I wouldn't have known it.


I saw someone attempting to control the centreline and maintain a strong body structure. That's wing chun. There's more to the art than spamming chain punches. As for the question 'where's the chi sau?', chi sau is a training method, not a technique. Personally I've found it very helpful in developing my wrestling (and I've been wrestling for a lot longer than I've been doing WC) and I've heard Alan Orr say that he and his students feel the same way.


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## Reeksta




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## Transk53

Reeksta said:


> You could say the same about any martial art these days. No top levels guys devote any significant time to individual arts any more, they cherry pick techniques and principles then apply them to the ruleset they're competing within. Some of these have come from wing chun.
> 
> I saw someone attempting to control the centreline and maintain a strong body structure. That's wing chun. There's more to the art than spamming chain punches. As for the question 'where's the chi sau?', chi sau is a training method, not a technique. Personally I've found it very helpful in developing my wrestling (and I've been wrestling for a lot longer than I've been doing WC) and I've heard Alan Orr say that he and his students feel the same way.



Nice reply fella. Thanks for posting the vid. Interesting that


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## Hanzou

Transk53 said:


> So basically you're argument is that any fighter practicing Wing Chun that climbs into the cage, is going to get mullered. Not much of an argument fella, just a statement of what you think. Looking at the latter vid anyway. Unless I have missed what you are getting at.



It's an opinion that is shared by people in the WC community as well;


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## Tez3

Reeksta said:


> You could say the same about any martial art these days.* No top levels guys devote any significant time to individual arts any more, they cherry pick techniques and principles then apply them to the ruleset* *they're competing within*.
> .




And that's MMA, we hope all the techniques from all the various styles flow into each other to get the win. There's a chap in the UK Sami Berik who comes from a CMA background. he's fought on our shows before. Nice guy as well as being a good fighter. Always open to questions btw if you want to ask.
ABOUT Sami Berik Official Site


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## Hanzou

Reeksta said:


> You could say the same about any martial art these days. No top levels guys devote any significant time to individual arts any more, they cherry pick techniques and principles then apply them to the ruleset they're competing within. Some of these have come from wing chun.



While that is true, we still see remnants of the base arts within their fighting style. For example, I still can point out the Muay Thai and Bjj techniques in Anderson Silva's fighting style. I can clearly see the Judo in Ronda Rousey's fighting style. I have yet to see someone utilizing anything resembling WC in MMA. Even Alan Orr's guys don't do anything resembling WC in the ring.



> I saw someone attempting to control the centreline and maintain a strong body structure. That's wing chun. There's more to the art than spamming chain punches. As for the question 'where's the chi sau?', chi sau is a training method, not a technique. Personally I've found it very helpful in developing my wrestling (and I've been wrestling for a lot longer than I've been doing WC) and I've heard Alan Orr say that he and his students feel the same way.



And I use Yoga concepts and principles to improve my Bjj. 

That isn't what I was talking about.


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## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> I have yet to see someone utilizing anything resembling WC in MMA


So you don't think Frankie Edgar nailing Hermes Franca with lin wan kuen resembles wing chun? You don't think Caol Uno deflecting punches with bong sau resembles wing chun? You don't think Fedor pak sauing Big Nog's hand before he punches him resembles wing chun? You don't think that Forest Griffin or Ronda Rousey using a high man sau to intercept punches resembles wing chun?
Because I do.


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## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> It's an opinion that is shared by people in the WC community as well;



Fair enough. It is not about a practitioner climbing into the cage, it was about the wrestlers etc., utilizing aspects of Wing Chun. At least that is what @Reeksta was talking about.


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## J W

Hanzou said:


> I checked out one of his students Aaron Baum in a MMA fight, and this is what I saw;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the Wing Chun in that? Where's the Chi Sau and the other stuff you mention? I see boxing, kick boxing, Bjj, and wrestling. If someone didn't tell me that guy practiced Wing Chun, I wouldn't have known it.
> 
> In comparison, this guy clearly utilizes Wing Chun in this bout;



I didn't see any Wing Chun in the second video. Holding your hands in jong sau and then charging in head first isn't good WC.

I do see WC principles at work in the first, though, even if the WC is "unrecognizable" when it's wrapped around your more typical MMA arts (boxing etc). 

I think you are confusing what Wing Chun is with what you think it's supposed to look like. 



Hanzou said:


> It's an opinion that is shared by people in the WC community as well;



He is basically saying there that WC isn't suited to MMA because it's too violent and the MMA rules restrict its effectiveness too much. I'm not sure that's what you're trying to say?


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## Hanzou

Reeksta said:


> So you don't think Frankie Edgar nailing Hermes Franca with lin wan kuen resembles wing chun? You don't think Caol Uno deflecting punches with bong sau resembles wing chun? You don't think Fedor pak sauing Big Nog's hand before he punches him resembles wing chun? You don't think that Forest Griffin or Ronda Rousey using a high man sau to intercept punches resembles wing chun?



Nope, it resembles standard MMA hand striking. Interestingly, none of those fighters are listing Wing Chun as a style they train in. Edgar mentions boxing, but no WC. Rousey has a boxing coach too. It would appear that to you, any punch deflection or straight punch is "wing chun", when in fact western boxing also contains punch deflection and straight punching.

Just like JW saying that Aaron Baum's striking resembles WC. Actually it looks like two amateur boxers swinging at each other. Maybe you guys are looking at Western Boxing techniques and are confusing them for WC techniques? I highly doubt that wild hook punches work with WC's underlying principles.

In any case, if I showed that Aaron Baum video, and then showed WC training and Boxing training, does anyone actually believe that a layman would say that those strikes resemble the WC training? Highly doubtful.



J W said:


> He is basically saying there that WC isn't suited to MMA because it's too violent and the MMA rules restrict its effectiveness too much. I'm not sure that's what you're trying to say?



In other words, if you do standard WC in MMA you're going to get killed. 

Just like that poor sap in Malaysia.


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## Tez3

To be honest if you do 'standard' any style in MMA you are going to get 'killed' though that is a poor choice of words. The point of MMA fights is to do better than 'standard', it is to be outstanding and to win.


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## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> Nope, it resembles standard MMA hand striking


I'm sorry but that's just ignorant. That's like me seeing a double leg takedown or a kneebar and saying it just looks like 'standard MMA grappling' because I'm unwilling to accept that those techniques have any root in wrestling or sombo (respectively). If you're actually going to deny that some of the most well known wing chun techniques resemble wing chun then there really is no point debating with you, which is a shame because I think it's a potentially interesting area to discuss. For the record, I don't think wing chun is particularly well suited to MMA competition (mainly to do with training methodology) but to claim that no aspects of the art have found their way into the mix is, in my opinion, simply incorrect.


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## Mephisto

Reeksta said:


> So you don't think Frankie Edgar nailing Hermes Franca with lin wan kuen resembles wing chun? You don't think Caol Uno deflecting punches with bong sau resembles wing chun? You don't think Fedor pak sauing Big Nog's hand before he punches him resembles wing chun? You don't think that Forest Griffin or Ronda Rousey using a high man sau to intercept punches resembles wing chun?
> Because I do.


I think the fact that other non wc fighters demonstrate moves that might be found in wc shows that wc has potential in the ring. The problem is that to my knowledge none of the fighters you mention have actually trsined in wc. You can find combative motions in any activity if you reach far enough, indigenous dances in some cultures show combative motions. Of course your example was an actual MMA fight but I think you might be reaching. I haven't watched any of those guys fight and wondered if they knew any wc. Wc uses punches and kicks there is no reason the art shouldn't be able to be demonstrated in the ring if it's a valid system.


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## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> To be honest if you do 'standard' any style in MMA you are going to get 'killed' though that is a poor choice of words. The point of MMA fights is to do better than 'standard', it is to be outstanding and to win.



While that is a fair point Tez, you can still see Boxing, Bjj, Wrestling, Muay Thai, and even TKD influences in modern MMA fighters. I have yet to see any recognizable CMA influences in modern MMA.

And when I say "standard MMA hand techniques" I'm talking about hand techniques that are pulled mainly from Boxing, and Muay Thai.


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## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> While that is a fair point Tez, you can still see Boxing, Bjj, Wrestling, Muay Thai, and even TKD influences in modern MMA fighters. I have yet to see any recognizable CMA influences in modern MMA.



Doesn't it depend though on whether you have trained enough to see CMA influences? I don't see it because I haven't trained it and therefore don't know what I'm looking for, it doesn't mean though that it's not there.


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## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> Doesn't it depend though on whether you have trained enough to see CMA influences? I don't see it because I haven't trained it and therefore don't know what I'm looking for, it doesn't mean though that it's not there.



I've never trained in Muay Thai, but I recognize it when I see it, because it has a very distinct style. As does many CMAs. That guy in the Malaysian MMA video was clearly doing Wing Chun for example. Unfortunately he got demolished for his effort.

Two MMA guys fighting just like Boxers doesn't strike me as something distinctly CMA. Its two guys who trained extensively in MMA who probably took Kung Fu as kids.


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## J W

Hanzou said:


> Just like JW saying that Aaron Baum's striking resembles WC. Actually it looks like two amateur boxers swinging at each other. Maybe you guys are looking at Western Boxing techniques and are confusing them for WC techniques? I highly doubt that wild hook punches work with WC's underlying principles.



That's not what I said, and I agree with you. None of the strikes in that video resemble WC striking. However, I did see some WC principles being put to use. So between the two vids you posted, the first one contains more WC than the second. 

Anyway, fine, maybe Wing Chun is no good in MMA competition. I really don't know. I honestly don't know enough about MMA to argue for or against using WC in that type of competition.

The original post had nothing to do with MMA, though, so getting back to that video of the Hawkins Cheung demo. I kinda like the combo starting at 0:16. Looks good, but it does rely on the uke throwing wildly telegraphed haymakers. Typically I would say that a demo like that is more about putting on a good show rather than showcasing effective techniques; you don't often see the uke using "skilled" attacks in those types of demos.


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## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> I've never trained in Muay Thai, but I recognize it when I see it, because it has a very distinct style. As does many CMAs. That guy in the Malaysian MMA video was clearly doing Wing Chun for example. Unfortunately he got demolished for his effort.
> 
> Two MMA guys fighting just like Boxers doesn't strike me as something distinctly CMA. Its two guys who trained extensively in MMA who probably took Kung Fu as kids.




I'm quite happy to acknowledge that I don't know things.
Of course, the 'guy' in the Malaysian video could have just been a very poor representative of his style. That's the danger of using videos to prove anything. I've seen some very bad MT ( I have trained MT) which if you were to watch would make you think MT was a terrible art to train in for MMA. All that video proves to be is that the guy isn't a good fighter, nothing more. I actually wouldn't make the judgement about CMA and MMA, it is far too sweeping to say that CMA doesn't work or it does based on that.


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## Hanzou

J W said:


> That's not what I said, and I agree with you. None of the strikes in that video resemble WC striking. However, I did see some WC principles being put to use. So between the two vids you posted, the first one contains more WC than the second.
> 
> Anyway, fine, maybe Wing Chun is no good in MMA competition. I really don't know. I honestly don't know enough about MMA to argue for or against using WC in that type of competition.



The principles and concepts are interesting, and possibly applicable, but yeah, I don't think we're going to see a guy performing Wing Chun as shown in demonstrations and instructional tapes in MMA anytime soon.



Tez3 said:


> I'm quite happy to acknowledge that I don't know things.



As am I. However, if you're going to argue that someone can't tell a CMA style from a western boxing/kickboxing style, I simply have to disagree.



> Of course, the 'guy' in the Malaysian video could have just been a very poor representative of his style. That's the danger of using videos to prove anything. I've seen some very bad MT ( I have trained MT) which if you were to watch would make you think MT was a terrible art to train in for MMA. All that video proves to be is that the guy isn't a good fighter, nothing more. I actually wouldn't make the judgement about CMA and MMA, it is far too sweeping to say that CMA doesn't work or it does based on that.



No one is saying that Wing Chun doesn't work, or are useless. The argument here is that they are absent from MMAs and it would be very impressive to see someone break out in some Wing Chun in a MMA competition.


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## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> The principles and concepts are interesting, and possibly applicable, but yeah, I don't think we're going to see a guy performing Wing Chun as shown in demonstrations and instructional tapes in MMA anytime soon.
> 
> 
> 
> As am I. However, if you're going to argue that someone can't tell a CMA style from a western boxing/kickboxing style, I simply have to disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> No one is saying that Wing Chun doesn't work, or are useless. The argument here is that they are absent from MMAs and it would be very impressive to see someone break out in some Wing Chun in a MMA competition.






I'm wondering why everything has to be an argument and why everything has to be about MMA.......


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## Jake104

Hanzou said:


> I don't doubt that many fighters have looked into Wing Chun from time to time to see if there's anything to glean from its practice. That really doesn't change my argument above. Heck, fighters also practice Yoga. Are we going to now start counting Yoga as one of their fighting styles they practice?
> 
> You can utilize Chi Sau practice all you want, but if you just end up fighting like a boxer in the end, what was the point? You mention Alan Orr's team. I checked out one of his students Aaron Baum in a MMA fight, and this is what I saw;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where's the Wing Chun in that? Where's the Chi Sau and the other stuff you mention? I see boxing, kick boxing, Bjj, and wrestling. If someone didn't tell me that guy practiced Wing Chun, I wouldn't have known it.
> 
> In comparison, this guy clearly utilizes Wing Chun in this bout;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fast forward to 1:30, its a quick fight.
> 
> Its great to have theories and principles, but if you're tossing them all aside to fight like a standard MMA fighter, what was the point in learning them, or (worse) advertising your background in them in the first place?


Your are so 100% right. Whenever a fighter freezes with his hands out Ina Wing Chun Gaurd and gets KO'd that's pure WC. Man nothing gets by you!  But when somebody wins. It is just a dabble in Wing Chun like yoga? The Malaysian  fight looked more like a yoga demo to me than Wing Chun. Thanks for setting us straight!


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## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> I'm wondering why everything has to be an argument and why everything has to be about MMA.......



Well you waded into an argument about MMA. What did you expect?


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## Jake104

Jake104 said:


> Your are so 100% right. Whenever a fighter freezes with his hands out Ina Wing Chun Gaurd and gets KO'd that's pure WC. Man nothing gets by you!  But when somebody wins. It is just a dabble in Wing Chun like yoga? The Malaysian  fight looked more like a yoga demo to me than Wing Chun. Thanks for setting us straight!


If you look here at about 3:00 mark
Hawkins talks about holding pressure and how it looks just like how MMA does it.  Bare in mind it may not look exactly like MMA cause HC is not wearing his tapout shirt that day or his hat sideways. Haha


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## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> I'm wondering why everything has to be an argument and why everything has to be about MMA.......


I think mma is an important frame of reference for martial arts that make a strong claim to an applicapable fighting system. MMA is the closest thing we have to reality for trained fighters to assess and test skill. Yes, mma has many rules and is a sport but I wager that regular class training in any art has rules and customs of what is acceptable and what's not. If you claim to be teaching people an effective fighting art MMA is the measure. If it can be used in mma than is agree that it's an effective style, if it can't be used than I'd question a styles claim of being an effective or superior fighting system. Just because we don't see styles in mma doesn't mean they don't work, it just means it hasn't happened yet. Some recent impressive displays of the wheel kick give me hope that some day tkd might be a staple art off mma. All mma is, is fighting in all ranges in a one on one format. Any system that has punches, kicks, and grappling should be able to prove its success in this fighting format.


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## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> Well you waded into an argument about MMA. What did you expect?



The point is Hanzou that there is no need for an argument in this thread, or any thread.


----------



## Jake104

Transk53 said:


> The point is Hanzou that there is no need for an argument in this thread, or any thread.


Yes, cause the title is "How Wing Chun is suppose to look... In my book."
Read another book if you don't agree! Haha!


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Well you waded into an argument about MMA. What did you expect?




The thread wasn't about MMA... until you brought up fighting in the cage.


----------



## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> I think mma is an important frame of reference for martial arts that make a strong claim to an applicapable fighting system. MMA is the closest thing we have to reality for trained fighters to assess and test skill. Yes, mma has many rules and is a sport but I wager that regular class training in any art has rules and customs of what is acceptable and what's not. If you claim to be teaching people an effective fighting art MMA is the measure. If it can be used in mma than is agree that it's an effective style, if it can't be used than I'd question a styles claim of being an effective or superior fighting system. Just because we don't see styles in mma doesn't mean they don't work, it just means it hasn't happened yet. Some recent impressive displays of the wheel kick give me hope that some day tkd might be a staple art off mma. All mma is, is fighting in all ranges in a one on one format. Any system that has punches, kicks, and grappling should be able to prove its success in this fighting format.




Actually MMA is a competition, it tests competitors. It tests competitive skills, tactics and fitness. It is competitive fighting which doesn't necessarily make it the benchmark by which we judge all martial arts.
 If you haven't realised how many TKDists there are in MMA already then I'm not sure you actually understand MMA as much as you think you do.
Can I ask how long you have trained MMA and have you coached fighters? How many fights have you seen, have you judged MMA fights, reffed them? cornered fighters? I ask to get an idea of how involved you are in MMA, that's all.


----------



## geezer

Hanzou said:


> The principles and concepts are interesting, and possibly applicable, but yeah, I don't think we're going to see a guy performing Wing Chun as shown in demonstrations and instructional tapes in MMA anytime soon.
> 
> ...No one is saying that Wing Chun doesn't work, or are useless. The argument here is that they are absent from MMAs and it would be very impressive to see someone break out in some Wing Chun in a MMA competition.



I have to agree. I'd really like to see someone make some WC that _looks like WC_ work in an MMA setting, but like Hanzou, I'm not holding my breath. 

Alan Orr's guys have had some success, but the outward appearance of their CSL Wing Chun looks pretty much like standard MMA fare. On the other hand, Coach Orr insists that if you look a little closer, you can see where the WC comes into play:






Is it WC or not? That's up to you. I don't know what's in _your _book. Jake's told us about _his_. Regardless, Orr's guys make their stuff work and they insist that chi-sau and other WC training methods are of direct value. Maybe you can't see it in their matches, but I'd point out that there are a lot of good Western Boxing training methods from speed bag work to jumping rope that are not visibly present in a fight, but that good coaches still use. Maybe we should look at chi-sau like that.


----------



## Jake104

geezer said:


> I have to agree. I'd really like to see someone make some WC that _looks like WC_ work in an MMA setting, but like Hanzou, I'm not holding my breath.
> 
> Alan Orr's guys have had some success, but the outward appearance of their CSL Wing Chun looks pretty much like standard MMA fare. On the other hand, Coach Orr insists that if you look a little closer, you can see where the WC comes into play:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it WC or not? That's up to you. I don't know what's in _your _book. Jake's told us about _his_. Regardless, Orr's guys make their stuff work and they insist that chi-sau and other WC training methods are of direct value. Maybe you can't see it in their matches, but I'd point out that there are a lot of good Western Boxing training methods from speed bag work to jumping rope that are not visibly present in a fight, but that good coaches still use. Maybe we should look at chi-sau like that.


Actually I don't have a book. I'm more of a look at the pictures kind of reader.


----------



## Tez3

Jake104 said:


> Actually I don't have a book. I'm more of a look at the pictures kind of reader.



that's for sure.

so what is MMA then if not a competition?


----------



## Jake104

You know just for agreement sake. You could say Alan's adapted his art for MMA. I think he even admits that the MMA stuff is his Chinese Boxing. You could say every art in mixed martial arts has been adapted for the ring. Even BJJ. Cause after the element ofsurprise  that the Gracie's had going for them in the first UFC's was lost. They had to adapt and learn better stand up?


----------



## Jake104

Tez3 said:


> *that's for sure.*
> 
> so what is MMA then if not a competition?


Thanks for noticing!


----------



## Tez3

Jake104 said:


> Thanks for noticing!




You're welcome  so what is MMA then if not a competition?


----------



## Jake104

Tez3 said:


> that's for sure.
> 
> *so what is MMA then if not a competition?*



It's entertainment.


----------



## Jake104

It's more than a competition. Checkers and UNO can be a competition. Ring fighting is more than that. It can be a test of skill. A test of courage and confidence. It could be just a pay day.


----------



## Tez3

Jake104 said:


> It's entertainment.



It certainly is, it's also a business. People should realise this and stop thinking that MMA is some sort of ultimate pressure test for martial arts, that if someone isn't demonstrating a particular art 'works' in the cage then that art is pants and not worth training in. We coach fighters to win against their opponents, we coach them in all the ways to win, that is not necessarily 'good' martial arts, it's effective fight winning 'arts'.


----------



## Jake104

But.....,..., I don't think it's an accurate gauge of wether a MA sucks or not!


----------



## Jake104

Tez3 said:


> It certainly is, it's also a business. People should realise this and stop thinking that MMA is some sort of ultimate pressure test for martial arts, that if someone isn't demonstrating a particular art 'works' in the cage then that art is pants and not worth training in. We coach fighters to win against their opponents, we coach them in all the ways to win, that is not necessarily 'good' martial arts, it's effective fight winning 'arts'.


Hey, I think we agree!


----------



## Tez3

Jake104 said:


> But.....,..., I don't think it's an accurate gauge of wether a MA sucks or not!



Well I don't think I said you did, did I?
Many do though which is why at the moment a lot of threads on MT are turning into a thread about MMA.


----------



## Hanzou

Transk53 said:


> The point is Hanzou that there is no need for an argument in this thread, or any thread.



I disagree. With no arguments there is no honest discussion. With no honest discussion, there is no exchange of knowledge and information. There's nothing wrong with arguments if they are positive and respectful.


----------



## Jake104

Tez3 said:


> Well I don't think I said you did, did I?
> Many do though which is why at the moment a lot of threads on MT are turning into a thread about MMA.


You didn't. When I post I imagine I'm speaking on a podium to a crowd of people and I have there undivided attention. Everyone has a glazed eyed look as they marvel in the words in which I speak.... I'm delusional! Haha.

You know, I think it's more of a fan boy thing. Real MMA fighters are usually humble and don't have the time or a reason to troll forums and dis other arts. They are usually nice guys and gals.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> It certainly is, it's also a business. People should realise this and stop thinking that MMA is some sort of ultimate pressure test for martial arts, that if someone isn't demonstrating a particular art 'works' in the cage then that art is pants and not worth training in. We coach fighters to win against their opponents, we coach them in all the ways to win, that is not necessarily 'good' martial arts, it's effective fight winning 'arts'.



Well why exactly wouldn't a fighting art work in a competition revolving around fighting? Could it possibly be that the art itself revolves more around theory than actual practice, and when forced into practice it comes up short?


----------



## Jake104

Hanzou said:


> Well why exactly wouldn't a fighting art work in a competition revolving around fighting? Could it possibly be that the art itself revolves more around theory than actual practice, and when forced into practice it comes up short?


It does work. You just don't see it. A few trees just fell quietly in the forest that I  think you just missed.


----------



## Hanzou

Jake104 said:


> It does work. You just don't see it. A few trees just fell quietly in the forest that I  think you just missed.



Sorry, but I disagree. An MMA fighter using a double leg takedown is no indication that Bjj is effective in MMA, but an MMA fighter using the Guard is. One is a distinct aspect of Bjj, the other is not.


----------



## Tez3

Jake104 said:


> It's more than a competition. Checkers and UNO can be a competition. Ring fighting is more than that. It can be a test of skill. A test of courage and confidence. It could be just a pay day.





Hanzou said:


> I disagree. With no arguments there is no honest discussion. With no honest discussion, there is no exchange of knowledge and information. There's nothing wrong with arguments if they are positive and respectful.




Now you have hit the nail on the head. Honest discussion yes but not arguments of the type that are on here at the moment, and no I'm not pointing the finger at you.
Not all arts are 'fighting' arts, many describe themselves as defence arts. They don't see themselves as the ones who make the first strike but who 'respond' appropriately  to end a situation so that perhaps their art isn't the most optimum art for a fighting competition. However by their lights the art _is fit for purpose_. Not all martial artists see themselves as fighters who actively seek to fight and I think it's this that some have difficulty with, martial arts that are not into 'fighting'.


----------



## geezer

Hanzou said:


> Well why exactly wouldn't a fighting art work in a competition revolving around fighting? Could it possibly be that *the art itself revolves more around theory than actual practice,* and when forced into practice it comes up short?



This may be true of a lot of TMA and especially of a lot of WC these days. And it's a shame. While on the subject, have you read any posts by Hendrick lately? 

Anyway, I don't believe that was always the case historically. In fact I heard stories that when some of the older generation tested their stuff in fights, GM Yip was very pleased when they won, even when they mixed in other non-WC techniques to get the job done. Practice over theory.


----------



## Jake104

Hanzou said:


> Sorry, but I disagree. An MMA fighter using a double leg takedown is no indication that Bjj is effective in MMA, but an MMA fighter using the Guard is. One is a distinct aspect of Bjj, the other is not.


I disagree. So you are saying a double belongs to one art? That's like saying a punch or a kick belong to this or that art. If You want to get technical all MArtial arts could be considered mixed


----------



## Jake104

BJJ came from JJJ and kosen judo so it's mixed. They didn't invent the guard, did they?


----------



## Hanzou

Jake104 said:


> I disagree. So you are saying a double belongs to one art? That's like saying a punch or a kick belong to this or that art. If You want to get technical all MArtial arts could be considered mixed



Double Leg takedown is a staple of western wrestling, at least as seen in MMA circles. Wrestlers have, bar none, the best DLTs around.

What variety of arts came together to form Wing Chun? I'm genuinely curious.



Jake104 said:


> BJJ came from JJJ and kosen judo so it's mixed. They didn't invent the guard, did they?



Don't believe the hype. Brazilian JJ comes from Kodakan Judo, Catch Wrestling, and street fighting. Maeda was one of the modern era's first mixed martial artists. The Gracies continued the tradition of incorporating different arts into their system.


----------



## Hanzou

geezer said:


> This may be true of a lot of TMA and especially of a lot of WC these days. And it's a shame. While on the subject, have you read any posts by Hendrick lately?
> 
> Anyway, I don't believe that was always the case historically. In fact I heard stories that when some of the older generation tested their stuff in fights, GM Yip was very pleased when they won, even when they mixed in other non-WC techniques to get the job done. Practice over theory.



Exactly. Hell, we have video of different schools of CMA fighting in rings and rooftops in competitive matches.

Isn't Huo Yuanjia a hero in CMA history because he defeated foreign fighters in competitive matches? Now all of the sudden TMAs aren't meant for the ring or competitive fighting?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> Double Leg takedown is a staple of western wrestling,


It can come from Shuai-Chiao (Chinese wrestling) as well.











The "山西 (Shan Xi)" branch of the SC system is very famous in different kind of "single leg" and "double legs". They even claim they have more than 50 different "leg attack (single or double)" in their particular SC branch.


----------



## Jake104

Hanzou said:


> Double Leg takedown is a staple of western wrestling, at least as seen in MMA circles. Wrestlers have, bar none, the best DLTs around.
> 
> What variety of arts came together to form Wing Chun? I'm genuinely curious.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't believe the hype. Brazilian JJ comes from Kodakan Judo, Catch Wrestling, and street fighting. Maeda was one of the modern era's first mixed martial artists. The Gracies continued the tradition of incorporating different arts into their system.


Street fighting? Last time I was wrestling on the ground in a street fight I got kicked in the head and ribs by 5-6 guys. No joke, true story. Hawthorne CA. At the Thifty gas station. I Was winning the fight. Then his friends from the pool hall across the street ran over and literally kicked my face in.


----------



## Jake104

Jake104 said:


> Street fighting? Last time I was wrestling on the ground in a street fight I got kicked in the head and ribs by 5-6 guys. No joke, true story. Hawthorne CA. At the Thifty gas station. I Was winning the fight. Then his friends from the pool hall across the street ran over and literally kicked my face in.


Doesn't mean ground fighting is not effective in a street fight. Just means kicking someone in the head while they are on the ground is a staple of western street fighting.


----------



## Tez3

We've just had an off duty policeman killed when he and his colleagues were attacked by a group who recognised them as police. The chap who was killed had head injuries as did two of the others who were hurt. it's assumed they were taken to the ground and kicked most likely.



Hanzou said:


> Now all of the sudden TMAs aren't meant for the ring or competitive fighting?



I don't think anyone is saying all of a sudden TMA's aren't meant for that. It's just that a lot of TMA's see themselves as defensive rather than competitive, remember the saying 'no first strike in karate'? That's a good debating point in it's self but the fact remains a lot of people don't see their arts as being for competitive purposes. Remember your Shotokan history?


----------



## Transk53

Jake104 said:


> It's entertainment.



Yeah, an entertaining competition


----------



## Transk53

Jake104 said:


> Yes, cause the title is "How Wing Chun is suppose to look... In my book."
> Read another book if you don't agree! Haha!



Agree to the thread or the argument? Haha


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Jake104 said:


> kicking someone in the head while they are on the ground is a staple of western street fighting.


It can happen in China as well. 

It will be fun to train how to take your opponent down and his head is just within your kicking range.


----------



## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> Actually MMA is a competition, it tests competitors. It tests competitive skills, tactics and fitness. It is competitive fighting which doesn't necessarily make it the benchmark by which we judge all martial arts.
> If you haven't realised how many TKDists there are in MMA already then I'm not sure you actually understand MMA as much as you think you do.
> Can I ask how long you have trained MMA and have you coached fighters? How many fights have you seen, have you judged MMA fights, reffed them? cornered fighters? I ask to get an idea of how involved you are in MMA, that's all.


I don't train mma, don't watch it much, and don't claim to be an expert on the subject, I'm not a fanboy. I just give credit where it's due, you don't have to be a fanboy to know what mma had done for the martial arts. I'm okay with not being the best or most well rounded fighter, I dont plan on fighting anyone so I don't really care, I don't claim to be the best. I train really hard at what I do for my own sake and I don't have to discredit mma or say "it's just a sport" just because I don't do it. As for tkd did you read my post? I just mentioned that it may be an up and coming component of mma but it's still not tried and true like Muay thai. I wouldn't be surprised if the guys pulling off tkd moves had a significant amount of Muay thai under their belt. 



Tez3 said:


> It certainly is, it's also a business. People should realise this and stop thinking that MMA is some sort of ultimate pressure test for martial arts, that if someone isn't demonstrating a particular art 'works' in the cage then that art is pants and not worth training in. We coach fighters to win against their opponents, we coach them in all the ways to win, that is not necessarily 'good' martial arts, it's effective fight winning 'arts'.


Of course mma is a business if it wasn't we'd still have the same ruleset/ format from ufc one. But who wants to see a guy hold someone in guard for an hour? I'm not sure how being coached to win a fight isn't good for martial arts. The problem with martial arts is anyone can teach it, you can teach without having ever been in a fight. Than you have generations of guys who've never fought telling students the best way to fight or taking moves developed eons ago by someone who did have fighting experience and trying to understand it or modify it. Mma or any fighting competition is the remedy for this, if you compete you know what will work on a strong athletic person trying to hurt you. If you don't compete you might get in a street brawl here or there and you may win. But that's an unsavory life style and you're not fighting skilled opponents. You could train to best unskilled people and fail when you run across a skilled person or you could train to beat a skilled fighter from the start.


Tez3 said:


> Now you have hit the nail on the head. Honest discussion yes but not arguments of the type that are on here at the moment, and no I'm not pointing the finger at you.
> Not all arts are 'fighting' arts, many describe themselves as defence arts. They don't see themselves as the ones who make the first strike but who 'respond' appropriately  to end a situation so that perhaps their art isn't the most optimum art for a fighting competition. However by their lights the art _is fit for purpose_. Not all martial artists see themselves as fighters who actively seek to fight and I think it's this that some have difficulty with, martial arts that are not into 'fighting'.


I agree completely, not every art trains to develop fighting skill, that's fine. But it's a problem when guys who don't fight want the same respect as those that do. or when guys that don't fight deride fighters due to insecurity.


----------



## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> I disagree. With no arguments there is no honest discussion. With no honest discussion, there is no exchange of knowledge and information. There's nothing wrong with arguments if they are positive and respectful.



Look, I respect the fact that you like to argue a point. Yes you are indeed correct, I have no disagreement with that, only when a thread is about to descend into chaos, I would say back off. That is my viewpoint.


----------



## Hanzou

Jake104 said:


> Street fighting? Last time I was wrestling on the ground in a street fight I got kicked in the head and ribs by 5-6 guys. No joke, true story. Hawthorne CA. At the Thifty gas station. I Was winning the fight. Then his friends from the pool hall across the street ran over and literally kicked my face in.



Yes, street fighting. Exponents of Bjj tested their skills in the streets, and in competition, that's how it developed. You can see this history when you directly compare Bjj to its ancestor style of Judo.

As for getting kicked in the head, you can solve that problem by not traveling around by yourself, or utilizing Bjj techniques that don't require you to fully engage on the ground, like knee on belly or modified mount.



Transk53 said:


> Look, I respect the fact that you like to argue a point. Yes you are indeed correct, I have no disagreement with that, only when a thread is about to descend into chaos, I would say back off. That is my viewpoint.



The thread only descends into chaos if we allow it to. People shouldn't let their emotions get in the way of honest discussion.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> I don't think anyone is saying all of a sudden TMA's aren't meant for that. It's just that a lot of TMA's see themselves as defensive rather than competitive, remember the saying 'no first strike in karate'? That's a good debating point in it's self but the fact remains a lot of people don't see their arts as being for competitive purposes. Remember your Shotokan history?



While defensive minded, we never believed we couldn't fight with Shotokan if someone was trying to cave our faces in. Imagine my surprise when I went up against a Boxer and he erased all of my shotokan skills in a matter of seconds, with better footwork, and faster/more efficient hand techniques.


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> While defensive minded, we never believed we couldn't fight with Shotokan if someone was trying to cave our faces in. Imagine my surprise when I went up against a Boxer and he erased all of my shotokan skills in a matter of seconds, with better footwork, and faster/more efficient hand techniques.




No that wasn't what I meant. I said Shotokan history not what you did or do. The fact that the founder of Shotokan wanted no sparring or fighting.


----------



## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> The thread only descends into chaos if we allow it to. People shouldn't let their emotions get in the way of honest discussion



Quite. Hope you keep to that


----------



## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> No that wasn't what I meant. I said Shotokan history not what you did or do. The fact that the founder of Shotokan wanted no sparring or fighting.


Well if the founder of shotokan didn't want sparring or fighting there's a good chance guys like Hanzou didn't do much of it in class as such when he fought the boxer he didn't fare well. That's what happens when you train a fighting art that doesn't fight, you build a false sense of confidence and when the pressure goes up, technique goes out the window. A solid art will teach you how to perform under pressure. Any system has the potential to do this but not all of them do.


----------



## Transk53

Mephisto said:


> Well if the founder of shotokan didn't want sparring or fighting there's a good chance guys like Hanzou didn't do much of it in class as such when he fought the boxer he didn't fare well. That's what happens when you train a fighting art that doesn't fight, you build a false sense of confidence and when the pressure goes up, technique goes out the window. A solid art will teach you how to perform under pressure. Any system has the potential to do this but not all of them do.



Probably so, but don't discount the fighters instinct, that just simply shines through


----------



## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> I don't train mma, don't watch it much, and don't claim to be an expert on the subject, I'm not a fanboy. I just give credit where it's due, you don't have to be a fanboy to know what mma had done for the martial arts. I'm okay with not being the best or most well rounded fighter, I dont plan on fighting anyone so I don't really care, I don't claim to be the best. I train really hard at what I do for my own sake and I don't have to discredit mma or say "it's just a sport" just because I don't do it. As for tkd did you read my post? I just mentioned that it may be an up and coming component of mma but it's still not tried and true like Muay thai. I wouldn't be surprised if the guys pulling off tkd moves had a significant amount of Muay thai under their belt.



What has MMA done for martial arts? To be honest not nearly as much as you'd probably think. The TMA's have carried on just the same as they have always done and some of those that fancy fighting have gone to MMA. Not much more than that to be honest. Many of our British and European fighters are from TKD not Muay Thai and it is very well tested. I understand though that TKD in the States _may_ be seen as more for children or an Olympic sport than it is over here where it is a very robust martial art.



Mephisto said:


> Of course mma is a business if it wasn't we'd still have the same ruleset/ format from ufc one. But who wants to see a guy hold someone in guard for an hour? I'm not sure how being coached to win a fight isn't good for martial arts. The problem with martial arts is anyone can teach it, you can teach without having ever been in a fight. Than you have generations of guys who've never fought telling students the best way to fight or taking moves developed eons ago by someone who did have fighting experience and trying to understand it or modify it. Mma or any fighting competition is the remedy for this, if you compete you know what will work on a strong athletic person trying to hurt you. If you don't compete you might get in a street brawl here or there and you may win. But that's an unsavory life style and you're not fighting skilled opponents. You could train to best unskilled people and fail when you run across a skilled person or you could train to beat a skilled fighter from the start.



Not everyone wants to fight and not everyone trains to fight but instead trains to defend themselves if attacked, these situations are the same as a competitive fight so many feel they don't need to train 'fighting' or to 'test' it in the ring or cage. Coaching someone to fight MMA is a very different beast to coaching someone to defend themselves I can assure you. Knowledge of your opponent and the tactics one will use against them ranks high on the agenda when it's for competition, you focus on the particular techniques you need to defeat that opponent whereas you have to train for the unknown in self defence. Your opponent is not trying to mug, rape or kill you, they will pull back from causing anymore harm than necessary you cannot say that in a street brawl. What we do with our MMA fighters is quite different from what we teach our self defence classes.

Many martial arts instructors don't actually teach their students to 'fight' they teach their students firstly how to avoid fights if at all possible then to defend themselves from attacks. Attackers, skilled or not are attacking you with intent to hurt, maim and/or kill you, the sheer ferocity you can find in a 'street' attack doesn't match what you will face in an MMA fight. An MMA fighter is focused on winning, they are using their brain to work out the techniques and strategies to beat you, a 'street' attacker is coming to break your head, arms or legs, perhaps all three and maybe rape you as well.

Fighting MMA will stand you in good stead if you attacked there's no doubt,  you won't (or shouldn't) freeze if hit, you should be able to react instinctively, it will give you an edge no doubt but so will training hard in many martial arts. the 'MMA' effect isn't as big as perhaps you imagine. I am TMA and MMA, I see things from both sides.


----------



## Hanzou

Mephisto said:


> Well if the founder of shotokan didn't want sparring or fighting there's a good chance guys like Hanzou didn't do much of it in class as such when he fought the boxer he didn't fare well. That's what happens when you train a fighting art that doesn't fight, you build a false sense of confidence and when the pressure goes up, technique goes out the window. A solid art will teach you how to perform under pressure. Any system has the potential to do this but not all of them do.



Well we actually did spar. The problem is that we never sparred against other styles to test what worked and didn't. A simple fight against a Boxing school for example would expose the weaknesses of Karate against western boxing. Instead, we just sparred each other, seeing who was better at Karate. Its better than not sparring at all, but it was not optimal. In order to truly see where you stand on the pecking order, you need to test your style against other approaches. In the end, both are better for the exchange.

That's why I'm happy MMA came along.


----------



## Danny T

Hanzou said:


> I disagree. With no arguments there is no honest discussion. With no honest discussion, there is no exchange of knowledge and information. There's nothing wrong with arguments if they are positive and respectful.


I believe you can have honest discussion without argument. If you are going have an argument then that argument should as well be honest. The problem with argument is there are those who disregard honesty, truth, fact, fiction and impart opinion based upon what they want the truth to be vs being open to and acknowledging when they are incorrect in their argument. When the argument is such there is no honest discussion only opinion.


----------



## Jake104

Hanzou said:


> *As for getting kicked in the head, you can solve that problem by not traveling around by yourself, or utilizing Bjj techniques that don't require you to fully engage on the ground, *like knee on belly or modified mount.
> 
> 
> 
> The thread only descends into chaos if we allow it to. People shouldn't let their emotions get in the way of honest discussion.


I finally agree with you! But are you saying Ground fighting is only good in a controlled environment and not if you are alone? See, are we arguing cause there is a point or just for the point of arguing?

You know there is a fight " Gracie Challenge vid" in one of there backyards in Brazil. Backyard like soccer field or drug cartel backyard. But anyway there are people from both sides. As you watch the two fighting you can see the bystanders really wanting to jump in. But like you said before, there are people there from both sides. So no one did.. So yeah it's always wise to travel "deep" like we used to say. So I agree. Wahoo!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Mephisto said:


> That's what happens when you train a fighting art that doesn't fight, you build a false sense of confidence and when the pressure goes up, technique goes out the window. A solid art will teach you how to perform under pressure. Any system has the potential to do this but not all of them do.


How do you test your striking art such as your WC system? Unless you and your opponent both try to knock each other down, there is no "effective way" to test your striking skill. How many people are willing to get punched with full power on the head every day?

If you can use your

- "single leg" to take your opponent down 1,000 times, you know that you have a good "single leg" skill. This is totally doable.
- "arm bar" to tap your opponent out on the ground 1,000 times, you know that you have a good "arm bar" skill. This is also doable.
- "hook punch" to knock your opponent down 1,000 times, you know that you have a good "hook punch" skill. The problem is, is this doable?

The grappling art has the advantage to have a safe environment to train while the striking art doesn't. 

It's easier for a grappler to build up his combat experience. It's difficult for a striker to build up the same level of combat experience before he can get serious brain damage.


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> What has MMA done for martial arts? To be honest not nearly as much as you'd probably think. The TMA's have carried on just the same as they have always done and some of those that fancy fighting have gone to MMA. Not much more than that to be honest. Many of our British and European fighters are from TKD not Muay Thai and it is very well tested. I understand though that TKD in the States _may_ be seen as more for children or an Olympic sport than it is over here where it is a very robust martial art.
> 
> 
> 
> Not everyone wants to fight and not everyone trains to fight but instead trains to defend themselves if attacked, these situations are the same as a competitive fight so many feel they don't need to train 'fighting' or to 'test' it in the ring or cage. Coaching someone to fight MMA is a very different beast to coaching someone to defend themselves I can assure you. Knowledge of your opponent and the tactics one will use against them ranks high on the agenda when it's for competition, you focus on the particular techniques you need to defeat that opponent whereas you have to train for the unknown in self defence. Your opponent is not trying to mug, rape or kill you, they will pull back from causing anymore harm than necessary you cannot say that in a street brawl. What we do with our MMA fighters is quite different from what we teach our self defence classes.
> 
> Many martial arts instructors don't actually teach their students to 'fight' they teach their students firstly how to avoid fights if at all possible then to defend themselves from attacks. Attackers, skilled or not are attacking you with intent to hurt, maim and/or kill you, the sheer ferocity you can find in a 'street' attack doesn't match what you will face in an MMA fight. An MMA fighter is focused on winning, they are using their brain to work out the techniques and strategies to beat you, a 'street' attacker is coming to break your head, arms or legs, perhaps all three and maybe rape you as well.
> 
> Fighting MMA will stand you in good stead if you attacked there's no doubt,  you won't (or shouldn't) freeze if hit, you should be able to react instinctively, it will give you an edge no doubt but so will training hard in many martial arts. the 'MMA' effect isn't as big as perhaps you imagine. I am TMA and MMA, I see things from both sides.



Nice reply. I would plus 1 if I could. Anyway very agreeable


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Well we actually did spar. The problem is that we never sparred against other styles to test what worked and didn't. A simple fight against a Boxing school for example would expose the weaknesses of Karate against western boxing. Instead, we just sparred each other, seeing who was better at Karate. Its better than not sparring at all, but it was not optimal. In order to truly see where you stand on the pecking order, you need to test your style against other approaches. In the end, both are better for the exchange.
> 
> That's why I'm happy MMA came along.




My experience in karate is completely different, we sparred regularly and competed regularly in full contact karate comps.

The thing with wanting to spar against other styles is not that it tests karate but _that it tests you. _Your karate style can be absolutely spot on but are you? Are you confident in your abilities? It's nothing to do with the style but a journey to test yourself, your style can produce world champion full contact fighters but are you up to it? Now that's why people want to 'pressure test' their style, at least that's what they call it, in reality, they are testing themselves, measuring themselves against others.


On Shotokan history "In 1927, three men, Miki, Bo and Hirayama decided that kata practice was not enough and tried to introduce jiyukumite (free-fighting). They devised protective clothig and used kendo masks in their matches in order to utilise full contact. Funakoshi heard about these bouts and, when he could not discourage such attempts at what _he considered belittling to the art of_ _karate,_ he stopped coming to the Shichi-Tokudo"  The founder of Wado Ryu left Shotokan because he wanted sparring and Funakoshi didn't.


----------



## Jake104

Transk53 said:


> Agree to the thread or the argument? Haha


Idk, I lost track!


----------



## Jake104

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It can happen in China as well.
> 
> It will be fun to train how to take your opponent down and his head is just within your kicking range.


Yes, I think heads in any geographical location or culture are begging to be kicked. Haha


----------



## Jake104

Jake104 said:


> Yes, I think heads in any geographical location or culture are begging to be kicked. Haha


You know this is a fun thread. Much better than the TKD vs Wing Chun thread. There aren't many Sifu's I respect without ever meeting them. But Hawkins Cheung is one. I really like him. Among others of course and not just limited to WC. Kyuzo Mifune would be another just off top of my head.


----------



## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> What has MMA done for martial arts? To be honest not nearly as much as you'd probably think. The TMA's have carried on just the same as they have always done and some of those that fancy fighting have gone to MMA. Not much more than that to be honest. Many of our British and European fighters are from TKD not Muay Thai and it is very well tested. I understand though that TKD in the States _may_ be seen as more for children or an Olympic sport than it is over here where it is a very robust martial art



MMA may have not done much for TMA because a lot of tma is counter to evolution. But as a whole mma has shown the value of being able to fight at all ranges. Grapplers need a striking component to their game and vise versa. We have also seen a lot of the bs in martial arts exposed in some manner. We saw all kinds of arts in the first UFCs and now we see a lot less variety. As for tkd in the us it's not held in the highest regard, I do think it has potential. But when you market an art toward everyone you have to lower your expectations.


----------



## Hanzou

Jake104 said:


> I finally agree with you! But are you saying Ground fighting is only good in a controlled environment and not if you are alone? See, are we arguing cause there is a point or just for the point of arguing?



No, I'm saying you can avoid being outnumbered by Traveling in packs.

If you are alone, use Bjj techniques and transitions that keep you mobile, and can disable someone quickly.


----------



## Jake104

Hanzou said:


> No, I'm saying you can avoid being outnumbered by Traveling in packs.
> 
> If you are alone, use Bjj techniques and transitions that keep you mobile, and can disable someone quickly.


Yeah but some things can't be avoided. That fight I mentioned early. Well, I thought it was one on one. But to be 100% honest I deserved it. I was young  18-19 and thought I had something to prove. I learned a hard lesson that day. My girlfriend now wife was there. Thank god they didn't hurt her.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> The thing with wanting to spar against other styles is not that it tests karate but _that it tests you. _Your karate style can be absolutely spot on but are you? Are you confident in your abilities? It's nothing to do with the style but a journey to test yourself, your style can produce world champion full contact fighters but are you up to it? Now that's why people want to 'pressure test' their style, at least that's what they call it, in reality, they are testing themselves, measuring themselves against others.



Tez, if that were true why are people learning MMA to fight in MMA bouts, or choose only a select few styles to learn to enter MMA?


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## Hanzou

Jake104 said:


> Yeah but some things can't be avoided. That fight I mentioned early. Well, I thought it was one on one. But to be 100% honest I deserved it. I was young  18-19 and thought I had something to prove. I learned a hard lesson that day. My girlfriend now wife was there. Thank god they didn't hurt her.



Well that's the difference between wrestling and Bjj. If you knew a little Jiujitsu you could have avoided committing your entire body to the grapple.


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Tez, if that were true why are people learning MMA to fight in MMA bouts, or choose only a select few styles to learn to enter MMA?



because it's a bloody good way to test your skills, nerve and bravery.....  and get paid at the same time or at very least a ticket deal and expenses, we are in a recession after all. It costs money to enter other competitions.  

I would say that in the UK and Europe it isn't  just a few select styles, the ones people are training in here are quite mixed. As I said before we have a lot of TKD people in MMA, as well as karate, there's a fair selection of styles going on in MMA here. No shin kickers so far though ( yes that's a real sport here) Even CMA, ie Sami Berik.


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## Jake104

Hanzou said:


> Well that's the difference between wrestling and Bjj. If you knew a little Jiujitsu you could have avoided committing your entire body to the grapple.


Yeah but I was winning. So I was committed to the win. Wasn't aware of my surroundings till it was to late.. Nobody stopped it by the way. No cops, Good Samaritan. Basically I got beat til they stopped. That's my point, your "should of did this or that" is not realistic. Something's in life are going to be beyond your control.


----------



## Tez3

Jake104 said:


> Yeah but I was winning. So I was committed to the win. Wasn't aware of my surroundings till it was to late.. Nobody stopped it by the way. No cops, Good Samaritan. Basically I got beat til they stopped. That's my point, your "should of did this or that" is not realistic. *Something's in life are going to be beyond your control*.



Absolutely. Several years ago we had two soldiers dragged out of their car in Northern Ireland and beaten to death by a crowd, no amount of training in anything would have saved them sadly. We had an off duty police officer killed the same way this week in Liverpool and two injured, nothing could help them either and it's lucky three aren't dead. As you say, some things in life are going to be out of your control whatever skills you have.


----------



## Jake104

Tez3 said:


> Absolutely. Several years ago we had two soldiers dragged out of their car in Northern Ireland and beaten to death by a crowd, no amount of training in anything would have saved them sadly. We had an off duty police officer killed the same way this week in Liverpool and two injured, nothing could help them either and it's lucky three aren't dead. As you say, some things in life are going to be out of your control whatever skills you have.


Exactly. You can believe this or you can learn the hard way. I'm one that learned a lot the hard way. Now that I'm getting older. I'm not trying to press my luck anymore. I want easy. Smarter not harder is where I'am at. A lot of that comes with age. I have a 17 year old son. Trust me, I'm used to what I say going on deaf ears. Lol.


----------



## Jake104

Jake104 said:


> Exactly. You can believe this or you can learn the hard way. I'm one that learned a lot the hard way. Now that I'm getting older. I'm not trying to press my luck anymore. I want easy. Smarter not harder is where I'am at. A lot of that comes with age. I have a 17 year old son. Trust me, I'm used to what I say going on def ears. Lol.


All I can say is, all this chatter on topic or not, is good for Hawkins Cheung. I have always thought he is a underrated IP Man direct student that deserves some recognition.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> If you are alone, use Bjj techniques and transitions that keep you mobile, and can disable someone quickly.


Or get your head bashed in


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> because it's a bloody good way to test your skills, nerve and bravery.....  and get paid at the same time or at very least a ticket deal and expenses, we are in a recession after all. It costs money to enter other competitions.



Oh sure. My point was more to the line about testing yourself and not the style. If that was the case, why is there still only 3-4 essential styles in MMA after almost 20 years? It would seem to me that if were testing ourselves  and not the styles, we'd see far more variety than what we're seeing. Like you said, these people are trying to get paid, so they have an insentive on seeking out the most effective MA training possible.



> I would say that in the UK and Europe it isn't  just a few select styles, the ones people are training in here are quite mixed. As I said before we have a lot of TKD people in MMA, as well as karate, there's a fair selection of styles going on in MMA here. No shin kickers so far though ( yes that's a real sport here) Even CMA, ie Sami Berik.



Again fair point, but none of those guys are setting foot in the ring without extensive training in the main styles of MMA. You may see the slow emergence of alternate ways to beat someone down. For example, high kicks, Judo throws, and standing joint locks are slowly inching their way into MMA. However, the people pushing those boundaries have a solid foundation in the core MMA styles first.

Oh and if anyone's curious, Sami Berik has a 14-35 MMA record.


----------



## Tez3

Jake104 said:


> Exactly. You can believe this or you can learn the hard way. I'm one that learned a lot the hard way. Now that I'm getting older. I'm not trying to press my luck anymore. I want easy. Smarter not harder is where I'am at. A lot of that comes with age. *I have a 17 year old son. Trust me, I'm used to what I say going on def ears.* Lol.



It gets better lol, my youngest is 29, my oldest 38 and are a pleasure to chat and be with now. As you can tell I've been around a long time in martial arts and life probably why I sound like the Jewish mother I am roflmao. I am a mother of course I know best!


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Oh and if anyone's curious, Sami Berik has a 14-35 MMA record.


Your a disrespectful .................


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Oh sure. My point was more to the line about testing yourself and not the style. If that was the case, why is there still only 3-4 essential styles in MMA after almost 20 years? It would seem to me that if were testing ourselves  and not the styles, we'd see far more variety than what we're seeing. Like you said, these people are trying to get paid, so they have an insentive on seeking out the most effective MA training possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Again fair point, but none of those guys are setting foot in the ring without extensive training in the main styles of MMA. You may see the slow emergence of alternate ways to beat someone down. For example, high kicks, Judo throws, and standing joint locks are slowly inching their way into MMA. However, the people pushing those boundaries have a solid foundation in the core MMA styles first.
> 
> Oh and if anyone's curious, Sami Berik has a 14-35 MMA record.



You don't know Sami like I do, he has a record of taking fights on an hours notice, not wise but his record isn't a reflection of his abilities. he would go to a show as a spectator and bring his kit, if a fighter didn't turn up he'd fight, too many catch weight contest too but he wanted to fight to see if he could, not necessarily win but just fight.

You are talking about MMA in the States, I'm talking about MMA in the rest of the world lol. Testing ourselves has nothing to do with wanting to going into MMA, it can be done perfectly well within your own style. You know a certain punch works, you've seen others KO someone with it but does your punch work when you do it? that's the question and it can be answered perfectly well outside MMA which isn't hugely popular here, a rising sport certainly but we don't get crowds coming to fight nights the way they do in the US. Even the UFC didn't get huge crowds here. (On a side note people aren't going to pay over £80 and more for a UFC ticket here, it's extortionate.) we have good Judo, TKD and karate comps here as well as a lot of good boxing so people don't always feel they want to go into MMA.

Oh btw what's your MMA record?


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## Tez3

Sami Berik has fought Paul Daly, Dan Hardy, Leigh Remedios, Ross Pearson, Jean Silva, Andre Winner, Sol Gilbert and Jeremy Bailey as well as beating Abdul Mohamed. He's fought Kevin O'Hagen a very well known RBSD instructor here and there is absolutely no shame to losing to people of that calibre.


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## Transk53

@Hanzou. Did tell ya, you have taken it lower.


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## Reeksta

It's also worth pointing out that not all arts train specifically for a 1:1 situation against an unarmed opponent. Those that do will obviously excel in this arena. For example, in arts such as wing chun certain responses to a punch which make sense in a boxing or MMA context are discouraged because that fist may in fact have a knife in it and even a strike with no power can kill you if the opponent is using a blade. To me, that sort of mindset makes sense from a self defence perspective, but in a competition fight it will put you at a disadvantage over someone who's been training without such limitations


----------



## Hanzou

Mephisto said:


> MMA may have not done much for TMA because a lot of tma is counter to evolution. But as a whole mma has shown the value of being able to fight at all ranges. Grapplers need a striking component to their game and vise versa. We have also seen a lot of the bs in martial arts exposed in some manner. We saw all kinds of arts in the first UFCs and now we see a lot less variety. As for tkd in the us it's not held in the highest regard, I do think it has potential. But when you market an art toward everyone you have to lower your expectations.



This is a good point. When I first started Bjj in 2006 Nogi was pretty rare in many schools. Now Nogi is everywhere. Why? Because its a response to MMA, Wrestling, and competitive Grappling. In response to Barnett beating Lister, many Bjj schools are relearning Catch wrestling techniques. This is all merely an example of an evolving, adapting art. Many TMAs haven't changed their methods in decades, if not centuries.


----------



## Jake104

Reeksta said:


> It's also worth pointing out that not all arts train specifically for a 1:1 situation against an unarmed opponent. Those that do will obviously excel in this arena. For example, in arts such as wing chun certain responses to a punch which make sense in a boxing or MMA context are discouraged because that fist may in fact have a knife in it and even a strike with no power can kill you if the opponent is using a blade. To me, that sort of mindset makes sense from a self defence perspective, but in a competition fight it will put you at a disadvantage over someone who's been training without such limitations


This is a good post. I feel you and I are alike. You get it. You're like me. You have practical experience other than WC. I think you appreciate and get what the art or any art for that matter has to offer.


----------



## Jake104

Hanzou said:


> This is a good point. When I first started Bjj in 2006 Nogi was pretty rare in many schools. Now Nogi is everywhere. Why? Because its a response to MMA, Wrestling, and competitive Grappling. In response to Barnett beating Lister, many Bjj schools are relearning Catch wrestling techniques. This is all merely an example of an evolving, adapting art. Many TMAs haven't changed their methods in decades, if not centuries.


Sorry but all the name dropping really isn't helping your point. It's coming off more like fan boyism.


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## Jake104

Jake104 said:


> Sorry but all the name dropping really isn't helping your point. It's coming of more like fan boyism.


I want to like you and see your point but.......


----------



## Hanzou

Reeksta said:


> It's also worth pointing out that not all arts train specifically for a 1:1 situation against an unarmed opponent. Those that do will obviously excel in this arena. For example, in arts such as wing chun certain responses to a punch which make sense in a boxing or MMA context are discouraged because that fist may in fact have a knife in it and even a strike with no power can kill you if the opponent is using a blade. To me, that sort of mindset makes sense from a self defence perspective, but in a competition fight it will put you at a disadvantage over someone who's been training without such limitations



MMA-based styles also have self defense applications. However, they can turn off that aspect and switch to competitive/sport mode and execute their techniques with relative ease.

Why can't Wing Chun?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Reeksta said:


> that fist may in fact have a knife in it and even a strike with no power can kill you if the opponent is using a blade.



If we include ancient weapon into our MA discussion, many MA systems such as boxing, MT, SC, Judo, wrestling, BJJ, ... all won't make much sense any more. So where should we draw the line?

With just $19.99, you can have a spikes ring on your finger, who will even want to fight you with open hands?







If you can have a long Guan Dao or spear and if you are good at it, who will even want to fight you with boxing gloves?











How about these kind of short and long weapon tournament? Many systems don't train these either.


----------



## Mephisto

Reeksta said:


> It's also worth pointing out that not all arts train specifically for a 1:1 situation against an unarmed opponent. Those that do will obviously excel in this arena. For example, in arts such as wing chun certain responses to a punch which make sense in a boxing or MMA context are discouraged because that fist may in fact have a knife in it and even a strike with no power can kill you if the opponent is using a blade. To me, that sort of mindset makes sense from a self defence perspective, but in a competition fight it will put you at a disadvantage over someone who's been training without such limitations


Actually a lot of the boxing fundamentals of footwork and head and body movement are great for weapons application. Boxers train to distance and avoid hands all day. Obviously some modification is needed to turn boxing into a weapons art but many of its fundamentals surpass what I see in some FMA systems. On the other hand there are some solid FMA systems that have a lot in common in boxing albeit a different approach. Wing chun on the other hand seems less evasive and uses less ranging in and out and distancing. Wc seems to rely more on precise timing with the hands to avoid a strike. The problem with this approach is that there is less room for error, if the hands fail you get hit. Other systems like boxing will evade and range out on an attack and cover. If the cover fails you're still in a position to avoid the strike, in short there's more room for error, which is inevitable in the heat of a fight.


----------



## KPM

Mephisto said:


> Actually a lot of the boxing fundamentals of footwork and head and body movement are great for weapons application. Boxers train to distance and avoid hands all day. Obviously some modification is needed to turn boxing into a weapons art but many of its fundamentals surpass what I see in some FMA systems. On the other hand there are some solid FMA systems that have a lot in common in boxing albeit a different approach. Wing chun on the other hand seems less evasive and uses less ranging in and out and distancing. Wc seems to rely more on precise timing with the hands to avoid a strike. The problem with this approach is that there is less room for error, if the hands fail you get hit. Other systems like boxing will evade and range out on an attack and cover. If the cover fails you're still in a position to avoid the strike, in short there's more room for error, which is inevitable in the heat of a fight.



I agree with you.  When I do stick work, I refer to it as "stick boxing", taking my lead from an approach I learned from Ted Lucaylucay.   I practice Panantukan with a western boxing base much more than I practice the stick.  So when I do pick up a stick and work with it, I use my western boxing mechanics as much as possible.  Same with the knife.  Works fine!  ;-)

I would say Wing Chun should be about taking center and disrupting an opponent's balance and structure more than precise timing with the hands  (which would  be "chasing hands" and considered a "no no" in  Wing Chun) but I do also agree with you that Wing Chun is much less evasive with use of distancing than is FMA or Boxing.  Most Wing Chun has little to no "outside" game and relies on closing immediately with the opponent to get to "Wing Chun range."  If the opponent has good footwork and evasive skills...then the Wing Chun guy can be in trouble!


----------



## Jake104

Mephisto said:


> Actually a lot of the boxing fundamentals of footwork and head and body movement are great for weapons application. Boxers train to distance and avoid hands all day. Obviously some modification is needed to turn boxing into a weapons art but many of its fundamentals surpass what I see in some FMA systems. On the other hand there are some solid FMA systems that have a lot in common in boxing albeit a different approach. Wing chun on the other hand seems less evasive and uses less ranging in and out and distancing. Wc seems to rely more on precise timing with the hands to avoid a strike. The problem with this approach is that there is less room for error, if the hands fail you get hit. Other systems like boxing will evade and range out on an attack and cover. If the cover fails you're still in a position to avoid the strike, in short there's more room for error, which is inevitable in the heat of a fight.


Where do I start? First, I study in a solid FMA that has a "boxing approach". From what I have learned and believe is that distances and angles are very important when dealing with a weapon. But once engaged evasion or the in and out approach will probably get you killed. If you pull a stick or knife on me you better commit. If not and you give me the chance. I pull my other weapon a 45acp and you're dead. Totally legal here where I live and considered self defense. So dancing around probably not a good idea if weapons are involved.

Second your perception of Wing Chun using the hands to avoid strikes may jive with the countless bad youtube videos you may have seen . But that's not the way WC operates. At least not the way I've learned it from two different Sifu's. That's chasing hands and bad Wing Chun or fighting in general. Wing Chun angles and has footwork just like every other decent stand up fighting method. The static WC you see on YouTube is mostly lack of fighting experience and bad training.


----------



## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> MMA-based styles also have self defense applications. However, they can turn off that aspect and switch to competitive/sport mode and execute their techniques with relative ease.
> 
> Why can't Wing Chun?


I literally just gave my opinion on why that is in the paragraph you quoted. This is why people become frustrated with you


----------



## Jake104

Reeksta said:


> I literally just gave my opinion on why that is in the paragraph you quoted. This is why people become frustrated with you


I think that's his goal.


----------



## drop bear

There are wing chun concept that are used in mma. And there are concepts that are not.

so i don't know.

there are very few opportunities for grass roots wing chun guys to cut their teeth in tough competition. If you want to fight people you pretty much have to box, kickbox,wrestle.bjj,mma.


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## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> Why can't Wing Chun?



Are you actually asking that question, or just trying to answer it yourself again? Think it is fairly obvious that you are not going to get the answer you seek. Continuing is just futile. Wing Chun is not going to work in the cage simply because that is not what it is for. In the same way football players are not going to use a rugby ball.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> There are wing chun concept that are used in mma. And there are concepts that are not.
> 
> so i don't know.
> 
> there are very few opportunities for grass roots wing chun guys to cut their teeth in tough competition. If you want to fight people you pretty much have to box, kickbox,wrestle.bjj,mma.



Agree. It is what it is because that is the way it is.


----------



## Tez3

As it's now turned to a bash the style thread because ' MMA is the only one which works for everything' I'm off. Too much deja vu isn't good for one!


----------



## Mephisto

Transk53 said:


> Are you actually asking that question, or just trying to answer it yourself again? Think it is fairly obvious that you are not going to get the answer you seek. Continuing is just futile. Wing Chun is not going to work in the cage simply because that is not what it is for. In the same way football players are not going to use a rugby ball.


I curious why you think this is so? It's an art of punches and kicks. Why can't it be used to fight another skilled person with punches and kick? It makes no sense. I hope eventually someone with a wc and grappling base make it in mma, than all those used the excuse that it's not for competition will be surprised to learn that it is applicapable if you have the right training and attruibtes.


----------



## Hanzou

Reeksta said:


> I literally just gave my opinion on why that is in the paragraph you quoted. This is why people become frustrated with you



I recognize you did. However your answer doesn't work because there are styles with self defense application being used effectively in MMA and competitive sport. There's no reason an exponent cannot "turn off" the self defense mindset when engaged in a non-life threatening situation.


----------



## Mephisto

Jake104 said:


> Where do I start? First, I study in a solid FMA that has a "boxing approach". From what I have learned and believe is that distances and angles are very important when dealing with a weapon. But once engaged evasion or the in and out approach will probably get you killed. If you pull a stick or knife on me you better commit. If not and you give me the chance. I pull my other weapon a 45acp and you're dead. Totally legal here where I live and considered self defense. So dancing around probably not a good idea if weapons are involved.
> 
> Second your perception of Wing Chun using the hands to avoid strikes may jive with the countless bad youtube videos you may have seen . But that's not the way WC operates. At least not the way I've learned it from two different Sifu's. That's chasing hands and bad Wing Chun or fighting in general. Wing Chun angles and has footwork just like every other decent stand up fighting method. The static WC you see on YouTube is mostly lack of fighting experience and bad training.


Hmmm where do I start? First I'm not going to pull a stick or knife on you, this is just an Internet discussion don't worry. Also the idea of a weapons duel where you have time to draw a gun is not realistic. The whole idea of a weapons duel in general isn't very realistic in most modern societies but we still train it. The in and out approach with a weapon is a wise and valid approach. You move in to kill, if the opponents defends or counters you move out angle and enter again. It's standarn boxing and if you train in a solid FMA that draws from boxing you probably do it. You can have the classical "one punch one kill" mentality but reality is quite different and you must react accordingly. I'm not talking about dancing with a weapon although you see a fair amount of that in a lot of FMA sparring which may be a valid approach as well but it's not my approach. Evasion is a valuable strategy. My point is you said boxing is not good against unarmed opponent and presented wc as a better alternative. But in you admission your FMA uses a boxing approach as do many FMA systems, so perhaps you are wrong on this one. I will add that there is quite a bit of trapping in FMA so wc may have a place there but you need a strong evasive game and in and out game to pull it off. I use trapping a lot to enter and get a solid shot but I pick and choose where to apply it, I don't try to trap every strike weapon or not.


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## Tez3

Nowt wrong with the styles, look to the fighter.


----------



## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> I recognize you did. However your answer doesn't work because there are styles with self defense application being used effectively in MMA and competitive sport. There's no reason an exponent cannot "turn off" the self defense mindset when engaged in a non-life threatening situation.


My statement wasn't about whether other arts have self defence applications though was it? It was about the fact that certain arts train specifically for a 1:1 encounter with an unarmed opponent


----------



## Hanzou

Reeksta said:


> My statement wasn't about whether other arts have self defence applications though was it? It was about the fact that certain arts train specifically for a 1:1 encounter with an unarmed opponent



So you're saying that a WC exponent has more trouble taking down a single unarmed opponent than a single armed opponent?


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> So you're saying that a WC exponent has more trouble taking down a single unarmed opponent than a single armed opponent?




He didn't say that at all.

Are you going to post up your MMA fight record? Or a video of you fighting MMA? If you are telling us that MMA is *the* way to test fighters and/or styles then you will have done it yourself to be so sure MMA is the best so please do tell us what your fight record is and who you have fought. You cannot in all honesty disrespect a fighter's record who has got in the cage with some of the best unless you have a better record against better opponents...or even the same opponents. You cannot tell us that WC is useless or Aikido or karate unless you can prove that in the cage or ring, posting videos of others proves nothing. We need to see you, yourself, personally fighting in MMA pro rules fights to show us that in fact all these people who have spent years training in their styles are actually wrong.
It isn't a challenge, it isn't a dare, it's a polite request for your fight record and fight videos.


----------



## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> So you're saying that a WC exponent has more trouble taking down a single unarmed opponent than a single armed opponent?


No that's obviously not what I'm saying, please stop being facetious.
What I'm saying is that arts like wing chun train for a wider range of scenarios and discourage it's practitioners from certain courses of action which could get you into trouble if your opponent has a weapon or some friends with him. As Tez mentioned, it's a different mindset, with different tools, for a different set of objectives. However, some of those things a WC practitioner trains not to do make perfect sense if you take away those variables.
For example, my sifu dislikes when I slip punches and duck underneath for a takedown. His logic is that, if the opponent had a knife that I hadn't seen, then he could easily slice me with it as he retracted his arm. This makes sense from a self defence perspective but if I'm limiting my responses in this way, then in a situation where there's no risk of weapons or multiple opponents, I'm naturally at a disadvantage compared to someone who has trained without limiting their options in this way and who has trained specifically for the situation we are currently in.
It's a compromise.


----------



## Transk53

Transk53 said:


> Are you actually asking that question, or just trying to answer it yourself again? Think it is fairly obvious that you are not going to get the answer you seek. Continuing is just futile. Wing Chun is not going to work in the cage simply because that is not what it is for. In the same way football players are not going to use a rugby ball.



By disagreeing you have pretty much substantiated my post. Now you are just arguing. Absolutely pointless.


----------



## Mephisto

Hanzou said:


> So you're saying that a WC exponent has more trouble taking down a single unarmed opponent than a single armed opponent?


Exactly and they can't fight a guy without killing him, cause there's no rules on the street you know


----------



## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> Exactly and they can't fight a guy without killing him, cause there's no rules on the street you know




Don't they have to licence their hands and record them with the police as well as give warnings before attacking?


----------



## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> He didn't say that at all.
> 
> Are you going to post up your MMA fight record? Or a video of you fighting MMA? If you are telling us that MMA is *the* way to test fighters and/or styles then you will have done it yourself to be so sure MMA is the best so please do tell us what your fight record is and who you have fought. You cannot in all honesty disrespect a fighter's record who has got in the cage with some of the best unless you have a better record against better opponents...or even the same opponents. You cannot tell us that WC is useless or Aikido or karate unless you can prove that in the cage or ring, posting videos of others proves nothing. We need to see you, yourself, personally fighting in MMA pro rules fights to show us that in fact all these people who have spent years training in their styles are actually wrong.
> It isn't a challenge, it isn't a dare, it's a polite request for your fight record and fight videos.


Why does someone have to be a MMA fighter to think that it's one of the best methods for testing ones art? As I mentioned earlier, I'm not an MMA fan and I don't train MMA. I also don't claim the best not do I care if I'm the best. I don't need to discredit MMA as "just sport" because it's not what I do. It's the best legal means we have to test ones art, that's all. Just give credit where it's due.


Transk53 said:


> By disagreeing you have pretty much substantiated my post. Now you are just arguing. Absolutely pointless.


Why are you quoting your self?


----------



## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> Why does someone have to be a MMA fighter to think that it's one of the best methods for testing ones art? As I mentioned earlier, I'm not an MMA fan and I don't train MMA. I also don't claim the best not do I care if I'm the best. I don't need to discredit MMA as "just sport" because it's not what I do. It's the best legal means we have to test ones art, that's all. Just give credit where it's due.




I'm not sure if you are asking me or not. I would say that I don't think you have to do MMA at all, I do though and I do TMA as well, I can see the best of both worlds however Hanzou has constantly throughout the forum on various threads stated that the *only *way to test your art is in the cage, that MMA is the best, in fact probably the only way to train these days. He states often too that if your art doesn't 'work' in the cage then your art is rubbish. Comments like 'TMAs haven't changed for centuries' as a put down aren't conducive to understanding and having a proper conversations on martial arts. Disrespecting a fighter because he assumes that the fighter's record means he's a bad fighter is not the way we do things in MMA or TMA, so I'm assuming Hanzou has a better record fighting better fighters. If one is going to constantly tell other martial artists their style is useless and cannot compete in the cage one needs to back up what one says in my opinion or perhaps one should listen instead to what those martial artists are telling them about their art


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure if you are asking me or not. I would say that I don't think you have to do MMA at all, I do though and I do TMA as well, I can see the best of both worlds however Hanzou has constantly throughout the forum on various threads stated that the *only *way to test your art is in the cage, that MMA is the best, in fact probably the only way to train these days. He states often too that if your art doesn't 'work' in the cage then your art is rubbish. Comments like 'TMAs haven't changed for centuries' as a put down aren't conducive to understanding and having a proper conversations on martial arts. Disrespecting a fighter because he assumes that the fighter's record means he's a bad fighter is not the way we do things in MMA or TMA, so I'm assuming Hanzou has a better record fighting better fighters. If one is going to constantly tell other martial artists their style is useless and cannot compete in the cage one needs to back up what one says in my opinion or perhaps one should listen instead to what those martial artists are telling them about their art



Two things;

1. I don't do MMA, I do Bjj. Bjj is a core MA within MMA, so I'm not seeing how me never fighting in a MMA match contradicts my arguments.

2. You don't need to practice the sport to point out a crappy record in the sport. I don't play American Football but I can still point out that The Raiders and Titans are terrible football teams with crappy records. You brought the guy up, I just pointed out his record.

While your damage control was entertaining, it was also irrelevant.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Two things;
> 
> 1. I don't do MMA, I do Bjj. Bjj is a core MA within MMA, so I'm not seeing how me never fighting in a MMA match contradicts my arguments.
> 
> 2. You don't need to practice the sport to point out a crappy record in the sport. I don't play American Football but I can still point out that The Raiders and Titans are terrible football teams with crappy records. You brought the guy up, I just pointed out his record.
> 
> While your damage control was entertaining, it was also irrelevant.


You pointed out his record to be a DB disrespectful jerk.  The best part is you don't even compete. Lol your a coward who hides behind a keyboard.


----------



## Hanzou

Reeksta said:


> No that's obviously not what I'm saying, please stop being facetious.
> What I'm saying is that arts like wing chun train for a wider range of scenarios and discourage it's practitioners from certain courses of action which could get you into trouble if your opponent has a weapon or some friends with him. As Tez mentioned, it's a different mindset, with different tools, for a different set of objectives. However, some of those things a WC practitioner trains not to do make perfect sense if you take away those variables.
> For example, my sifu dislikes when I slip punches and duck underneath for a takedown. His logic is that, if the opponent had a knife that I hadn't seen, then he could easily slice me with it as he retracted his arm. This makes sense from a self defence perspective but if I'm limiting my responses in this way, then in a situation where there's no risk of weapons or multiple opponents, I'm naturally at a disadvantage compared to someone who has trained without limiting their options in this way and who has trained specifically for the situation we are currently in.
> It's a compromise.



Interesting how you keep saying that you're not saying something, and then go on to say it again.

Look, we do everything you describe above in Bjj. Instead of grinding my elbow in someone's face as I go for an Americana, I'll just place my elbow next to their head. Instead of doing a full mount, I'll do a knee on belly. Instead of going to the mat to perform an armbar after a throw, i'll stay standing and do a standing arm bar.

Again, I can modify my Bjj for a variety of situations. Why can't you do the same with WC?


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> You pointed out his record to be a DB disrespectful jerk.  The best part is you don't even compete. Lol your a coward who hides behind a keyboard.



Actually I did compete, just not in MMA.

Just so we're clear though, it's disrespectful to post someone's fight record of its bad?


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Actually I did compete, just not in MMA.


Prove it


----------



## ballen0351

Actually don't I don't care.  I don't even believe you actually train at all so your irrelevant to this and all conversations from this point forward


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Two things;
> 
> 1. I don't do MMA, I do Bjj. Bjj is a core MA within MMA, so I'm not seeing how me never fighting in a MMA match contradicts my arguments.
> 
> 2. You don't need to practice the sport to point out a crappy record in the sport. I don't play American Football but I can still point out that The Raiders and Titans are terrible football teams with crappy records. You brought the guy up, I just pointed out his record.
> 
> While your damage control was entertaining, it was also irrelevant.



Well and there we have it. "MMA is the best way to test your art, the only way, if it doesn't work in the cage it's crap' all this from someone who *doesn't even do* MMA. Ladies and gentlemen, I introduce the fan boy, points out a guys record, says it's rubbish but hasn't had the guts to get in the cage himself. 'BJJ is a core MA within MMA so therefore because you do BJJ it makes you as good as an MMA fighter."  
Being fit is a core part of being in the SAS but it doesn't make every fit person an SAS trooper.
 Do you know, I don't think you even understand MMA, it's ethos, it's fighters, what makes them respect a fighter, what makes them respect someone who gets into the cage to fight. You really haven't a clue so all you can do is disrespect other martial arts, you do know that by blowing out other people's candles your own is not going to burn brighter don't you. Why don't you leave these nice WC people alone and go back to your BJJ, if their art doesn't work they will live with it or sort it but I think you'll find it works very well for what they want it for...it's fit for purpose.


----------



## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure if you are asking me or not. I would say that I don't think you have to do MMA at all, I do though and I do TMA as well, I can see the best of both worlds however Hanzou has constantly throughout the forum on various threads stated that the *only *way to test your art is in the cage, that MMA is the best, in fact probably the only way to train these days. He states often too that if your art doesn't 'work' in the cage then your art is rubbish. Comments like 'TMAs haven't changed for centuries' as a put down aren't conducive to understanding and having a proper conversations on martial arts. Disrespecting a fighter because he assumes that the fighter's record means he's a bad fighter is not the way we do things in MMA or TMA, so I'm assuming Hanzou has a better record fighting better fighters. If one is going to constantly tell other martial artists their style is useless and cannot compete in the cage one needs to back up what one says in my opinion or perhaps one should listen instead to what those martial artists are telling them about their art



I guess I can see where you're coming from. I put a lot of weight on MMA training and training all ranges in general if your goal is to become a good all around fighter. The important thing is to test what you know against a resisting opponent. I think wc has some value and if someone were to use it successfully in the ring I think many more would appreciate wc. You don't have to be the best. What's weong with admitting that another training style is better? Most of us don't train to fight, we train for the challenge and numerous other reasons aside from fighting. MMA fighters could benefit from some scenario or street geared training but I think a solid grappling and striking foundation is more important than a street geared foundation. You can't "street" your way out of every confrontation but you surely can grapple or strike.


----------



## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> Interesting how you keep saying that you're not saying something, and then go on to say it again


At what point in the statement I made do I say that a wing chun practitioner finds it easier to fight someone who is armed rather than unarmed (which is what you're accusing me of)? Seriously, where?


----------



## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> I guess I can see where you're coming from. I put a lot of weight on MMA training and training all ranges in general if your goal is to become a good all around fighter. The important thing is to test what you know against a resisting opponent. I think wc has some value and if someone were to use it successfully in the ring I think many more would appreciate wc. You don't have to be the best. What's weong with admitting that another training style is better? Most of us don't train to fight, we train for the challenge and numerous other reasons aside from fighting. MMA fighters could benefit from some scenario or street geared training but I think a solid grappling and striking foundation is more important than a street geared foundation. You can't "street" your way out of every confrontation but you surely can grapple or strike.




Again I don't know whether you are addressing me because you think that's what I think? I ask because that's not what I think at all.

As for MMA fighter's benefitting from some scenario or street geared training, you do know that they will have done that in their other martial arts training or will do it in self defence training if they want to? MMA training is specifically training to fight, MMA fighters are martial artists, most here in the UK have belts, usually Dan grades in other styles such as TKD, karate, Judo etc.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> Well and there we have it. "MMA is the best way to test your art, the only way, if it doesn't work in the cage it's crap'



I never said that.



> all this from someone who *doesn't even do* MMA. Ladies and gentlemen, I introduce the fan boy,



Yes, im a rather big fan of MMA.



> points out a guys record, says it's rubbish but hasn't had the guts to get in the cage himself.



On what planet is 14-35 a good record?



> 'BJJ is a core MA within MMA so therefore because you do BJJ it makes you as good as an MMA fighter."



Yep, never said that either.



> Do you know, I don't think you even understand MMA, it's ethos, it's fighters, what makes them respect a fighter, what makes them respect someone who gets into the cage to fight. You really haven't a clue so all you can do is disrespect other martial arts, you do know that by blowing out other people's candles your own is not going to burn brighter don't you.



You got all that from me pointing out a fighter's lackluster MMA record?


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> I never said that.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, im a rather big fan of MMA.
> 
> 
> 
> On what planet is 14-35 a good record?
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, never said that either.
> 
> 
> 
> You got all that from me pointing out a fighter's lackluster MMA record?


----------



## Hanzou

Reeksta said:


> At what point in the statement I made do I say that a wing chun practitioner finds it easier to fight someone who is armed rather than unarmed (which is what you're accusing me of)? Seriously, where?



In your previous response. Essentially you're making the "my art is for self defense, not the cage" argument.

It's a pretty silly argument.


----------



## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> In your previous response.


Where? Please quote me exactly where I state that a wing chun practitioner finds it easier to defend themselves from an armed opponent than an unarmed one


----------



## Hanzou

Reeksta said:


> Where? Please quote me exactly where I state that a wing chun practitioner finds it easier to defend themselves from an armed opponent than an unarmed one



Unfortunately I'm posting from a phone, and it's not letting me copy what you wrote in that post. 

Are you saying that you aren't arguing that WC is  more designed for self defense and not for competitive fighting?


----------



## Transk53

Mephisto said:


> Why are you quoting your self?



Because it is easier this way to add a frame of reference. @Hanzou already knew about the previous post. Hence I reiterated my post. Simples.


----------



## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> Are you saying that you aren't arguing that WC is more designed for self defense and not for competitive fighting?


I'm saying that you've accused me of stating that a wing chun practitioner would find it easier to defend themselves from an armed opponent than an unarmed one and I would like you to quote where I wrote that. Otherwise I would like you to admit to your mistake. Btw, funny how your phone has allowed you to quote anything else you've wanted to but not this eh?


----------



## Hanzou

Reeksta said:


> I'm saying that you've accused me of stating that a wing chun practitioner would find it easier to defend themselves from an armed opponent than an unarmed one and I would like you to quote where I wrote that. Otherwise I would like you to admit to your mistake. Btw, funny how your phone has allowed you to quote anything else you've wanted to but not this eh?



Yes, it's very funny. However, let me try paraphrase what you wrote earlier;

You said your sifu would correct you if you attempted to do a grappling movement against a puncher because the person you're fighting might have a knife. This was also stated after you pointed out that some arts are better for 1:1 fights than others.

So essentially, a WC exponent should perform better against a knife wielding assailant on the street than a skilled yet unarmed fighter in the ring.  After all, beating the knife wielding mugger is what you guys train for right?


----------



## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> So essentially, a WC exponent should perform better against a knife wielding assailant on the street than a skilled yet unarmed fighter in the ring. After all, beating the knife wielding mugger is what you guys train for right?



Er no. You learn Wing Chun because of an interest in Kung Fu.


----------



## J W

Wow, did this thread go off the rails. Marnetmar shared a video of Hawkins Cheung that he found interesting, and it quickly devolved into that ol' "Wing Chun (or lack thereof) in MMA" debate. 

I think we can end this whole silly thing by simply agreeing that:

Hanzou and one or two others are of the belief that MMA is the best test we have of a martial art's effectiveness in one-on-one combat, and since WC hasn't fared too well in the MMA world they believe it is unproven. (Fine, they can believe that if they'd like, doesn't really affect my training.) 

No one else here really agrees with that. We believe it is a worthwhile, effective art, regardless of how it is (or isn't) used in the MMA world. We have no need to defend it. (For me, whether or not a martial art finds success in the MMA arena is completely irrelevant.) 

A BJJ practitioner questioning the validity of WC in the WC forum because it isn't used much in MMA in a topic that had nothing to do with MMA is probably not the most appropriate place for this discussion. Would've probably made more sense to start a new topic in the MMA forum titled "Why don't certain arts find success in MMA?" or whatever. 

This thread could've been better spent discussing Wing Chun and Hawkins Cheung. 

...or we can keep going round and round with this tired old argument. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go practice my Siu Nim Tau (hope I'm not wasting my time!).


----------



## Tez3

J W said:


> Wow, did this thread go off the rails. Marnetmar shared a video of Hawkins Cheung that he found interesting, and it quickly devolved into that ol' "Wing Chun (or lack thereof) in MMA" debate.
> 
> I think we can end this whole silly thing by simply agreeing that:
> 
> Hanzou and one or two others are of the belief that MMA is the best test we have of a martial art's effectiveness in one-on-one combat, and since WC hasn't fared too well in the MMA world they believe it is unproven. (Fine, they can believe that if they'd like, doesn't really affect my training.)
> 
> No one else here really agrees with that. We believe it is a worthwhile, effective art, regardless of how it is (or isn't) used in the MMA world. We have no need to defend it. (For me, whether or not a martial art finds success in the MMA arena is completely irrelevant.)
> 
> A BJJ practitioner questioning the validity of WC in the WC forum because it isn't used much in MMA in a topic that had nothing to do with MMA is probably not the most appropriate place for this discussion. Would've probably made more sense to start a new topic in the MMA forum titled "Why don't certain arts find success in MMA?" or whatever.
> 
> This thread could've been better spent discussing Wing Chun and Hawkins Cheung.
> 
> ...or we can keep going round and round with this tired old argument. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go practice my Siu Nim Tau (hope I'm not wasting my time!).




*Spot on post*!
 WC is only the latest style to have received the 'it doesn't work in the cage so it's pants' treatment, I imagine when this thread has finally run out of steam, the next style will have already been picked out for the 'versus MMA' treatment. We've already had Aikido trashed, funnily enough using all the same arguments. Bets on for the next style to be bashed?


----------



## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> Yes, it's very funny. However, let me try paraphrase what you wrote earlier;


I didn't ask you to paraphrase me. I asked you to quote where I actually said that a wing chun practitioner would find it easier to defend themselves from an armed opponent than an unarmed one. I will ask one last time: are you able to do this, yes or no?


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure if you are asking me or not. I would say that I don't think you have to do MMA at all, I do though and I do TMA as well, I can see the best of both worlds however Hanzou has constantly throughout the forum on various threads stated that the *only *way to test your art is in the cage, that MMA is the best, in fact probably the only way to train these days. He states often too that if your art doesn't 'work' in the cage then your art is rubbish. Comments like 'TMAs haven't changed for centuries' as a put down aren't conducive to understanding and having a proper conversations on martial arts. Disrespecting a fighter because he assumes that the fighter's record means he's a bad fighter is not the way we do things in MMA or TMA, so I'm assuming Hanzou has a better record fighting better fighters. If one is going to constantly tell other martial artists their style is useless and cannot compete in the cage one needs to back up what one says in my opinion or perhaps one should listen instead to what those martial artists are telling them about their art



mma does attract incredibly talented fighters though. Guys who i imagine would have been great wing chun men had they chosen to pursue that route.

it is just there is more money,greater fame,and a better challenge.


----------



## Transk53

Here is a short vid with defending against a knife. Anyway, I would think that most MA will have some kind of weapon defense.


----------



## drop bear

Reeksta said:


> I didn't ask you to paraphrase me. I asked you to quote where I actually said that a wing chun practitioner would find it easier to defend themselves from an armed opponent than an unarmed one. I will ask one last time: are you able to do this, yes or no?



sigh. Ok then do they find it easier to defend against one unarmed opponent or multiple armed ones?

because it kind of becomes the horns of the dilemma here. If one guy is easy. Then mma should be a walk in the park. If two guys with knives are easy. Then mma should still be a walk in the park.

and if you want to defend wing chun from this sort of argument then possibly a different strategy might be in order.

it would at least save you getting upset.


----------



## Transk53

He's not getting upset fella. More to do with the fact that the tread went to the dogs, and that @Hanzou will not answer a simple question.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> If one guy is easy. Then mma should be a walk in the park. If two guys with knives are easy. Then mma should still be a walk in the park.
> .


Because it doesn't fit in the rules.  I'm not sure why that's so hard for you to understand.  

Why do you care if it works or not?  If people are happy training in a style and have no desire to "test it"  in a manner that you find acceptable why do you care.  Your so worried about proving how great your "style" is and how bad everyone else's is.  Your like the little kid trying so hard to sit at the adult table


----------



## Reeksta

drop bear said:


> sigh. Ok then do they find it easier to defend against one unarmed opponent or multiple armed ones?
> 
> because it kind of becomes the horns of the dilemma here. If one guy is easy. Then mma should be a walk in the park. If two guys with knives are easy. Then mma should still be a walk in the park.
> 
> and if you want to defend wing chun from this sort of argument then possibly a different strategy might be in order.
> 
> it would at least save you getting upset.


You know what, I'm just gonna quote myself to save the hassle of typing it out again


Reeksta said:


> What I'm saying is that arts like wing chun train for a wider range of scenarios and discourage it's practitioners from certain courses of action which could get you into trouble if your opponent has a weapon or some friends with him. As Tez mentioned, it's a different mindset, with different tools, for a different set of objectives. However, some of those things a WC practitioner trains not to do make perfect sense if you take away those variables.
> For example, my sifu dislikes when I slip punches and duck underneath for a takedown. His logic is that, if the opponent had a knife that I hadn't seen, then he could easily slice me with it as he retracted his arm. This makes sense from a self defence perspective but if I'm limiting my responses in this way, then in a situation where there's no risk of weapons or multiple opponents, I'm naturally at a disadvantage compared to someone who has trained without limiting their options in this way and who has trained specifically for the situation we are currently in.
> It's a compromise.


I'm not saying anything is 'easy' am i? I'm merely pointing out that if you train more specifically for certain situations, you will be better in those situations than someone who trains more generally. This is simply the nature of time managment, surely?


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Because it doesn't fit in the rules.  I'm not sure why that's so hard for you to understand.
> 
> Why do you care if it works or not?  If people are happy training in a style and have no desire to "test it"  in a manner that you find acceptable why do you care.  Your so worried about proving how great your "style" is and how bad everyone else's is.  Your like the little kid trying so hard to sit at the adult table



i did not post on whether wing chun makes people happy. I am sure it does.

but then the conversation turned to why you don't see it in mma which interests me. It is not about proving anything is greater or lesser than anything else.

and i will repeat this for the adult table.

you do see wing chun concepts in mma.


----------



## Steve

Hanzou said:


> While that is a fair point Tez, you can still see Boxing, Bjj, Wrestling, Muay Thai, and even TKD influences in modern MMA fighters. I have yet to see any recognizable CMA influences in modern MMA.
> 
> And when I say "standard MMA hand techniques" I'm talking about hand techniques that are pulled mainly from Boxing, and Muay Thai.


Cung le was a reasonably effective mma'ist and his striking was strongly rooted in San shou.   

Once again, it's not the techniques, but the training model, which includes practical feedback.  San shou is cma trained for competition.  As a result, the cma remains recognizable under pressure.  

Competition isn't the only form of feedback in training, but it's certainly an effective one.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## drop bear

Reeksta said:


> You know what, I'm just gonna quote myself to save the hassle of typing it out again
> 
> I'm not saying anything is 'easy' am i? I'm merely pointing out that if you train more specifically for certain situations, you will be better in those situations than someone who trains more generally. This is simply the nature of time managment, surely?



correct. So from a mma perspective you don't see many mmaers become professional boxers. Because their boxing is not good enough.


----------



## Hanzou

J W said:


> A BJJ practitioner questioning the validity of WC in the WC forum because it isn't used much in MMA in a topic that had nothing to do with MMA is probably not the most appropriate place for this discussion. Would've probably made more sense to start a new topic in the MMA forum titled "Why don't certain arts find success in MMA?" or whatever.



Well we should remember how all of this began.

I simply said that fighting in a ring or a cage is a better example than a demonstration. Its important to note that I'm not the only person who said that. Reeksta then tried to show all the MMA fighters who supposedly use WC in their training. The thread went from there.


----------



## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> *Spot on post*!
> WC is only the latest style to have received the 'it doesn't work in the cage so it's pants' treatment, I imagine when this thread has finally run out of steam, the next style will have already been picked out for the 'versus MMA' treatment. We've already had Aikido trashed, funnily enough using all the same arguments. Bets on for the next style to be bashed?


I nominate ninjutsu! We could replace wc vs MMA with wc vs any other competitive style to keep it interesting if you're getting tired 


drop bear said:


> mma does attract incredibly talented fighters though. Guys who i imagine would have been great wing chun men had they chosen to pursue that route.
> 
> it is just there is more money,greater fame,and a better challenge.


I'd also say that the top tier of wc guys would make good MMA fighters also, and they'd be better equipped to deal with an aggressive opponent. 


Transk53 said:


> Here is a short vid with defending against a knife. Anyway, I would think that most MA will have some kind of weapon defense.


The video actually shows a valid FMA knife defense but it adds a few extra motions that don't accomplish anything, maybe when I get to my home computer I can break it down. The problem with his slashing technique defense is he executes several slashes than pauses the one intended to be defended against he doesn't even attempt to simulate a continuous attack. He could have offered seversl attacks at a controlled and even pace but he throws some short out of range slashes than enters with the same attack given in the other techniques.


----------



## Reeksta

drop bear said:


> correct. So from a mma perspective you don't see many mmaers become professional boxers. Because their boxing is not good enough.


I absolutely agree


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> There's no reason an exponent cannot "turn off" the self defense mindset when engaged in a non-life threatening situation.


When your fist meets on your opponent's face, whether it's "sport" or "self-defense", the result will be the same, your opponent will be down under your knee.


----------



## Hanzou

Reeksta said:


> I didn't ask you to paraphrase me. I asked you to quote where I actually said that a wing chun practitioner would find it easier to defend themselves from an armed opponent than an unarmed one. I will ask one last time: are you able to do this, yes or no?



Well you're in luck, because I'm now posting from a desktop;



> For example, my sifu dislikes when I slip punches and duck underneath for a takedown. His logic is that, if the opponent had a knife that I hadn't seen, then he could easily slice me with it as he retracted his arm. This makes sense from a self defence perspective but if I'm limiting my responses in this way, then in a situation where there's no risk of weapons or multiple opponents, I'm naturally at a disadvantage compared to someone who has trained without limiting their options in this way and who has trained specifically for the situation we are currently in.
> It's a compromise.



So essentially your WC training revolves around fighting armed opponents and multiple opponents, over countering the attacks of a skilled unarmed fighter. AKA Self Defense vs Competition Fighting.

By that logic, you're arguing that a WC fighter is better at taking down armed assailants on the street than skilled unarmed brawlers in the ring.


----------



## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> Well you're in luck, because I'm now posting from a desktop;
> 
> 
> 
> So essentially your WC training revolves around fighting armed opponents and multiple opponents, over countering the attacks of a skilled unarmed fighter. AKA Self Defense vs Competition Fighting.
> 
> By that logic, you're arguing that a WC fighter is better at taking down armed assailants on the street than skilled unarmed brawlers in the ring.


Nowhere in that passage do I say that a wing chun practitioner would find it easier to defend themselves against an armed opponent than an unarmed one


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> i did not post on whether wing chun makes people happy. I am sure it does.
> 
> but then the conversation turned to why you don't see it in mma which interests me. It is not about proving anything is greater or lesser than anything else.
> 
> and i will repeat this for the adult table.
> 
> you do see wing chun concepts in mma.


The conversation turned that way because there are 2 of you that can't leave people in other styles alone with out the "well if your art is so good why is it not in MMA"  it has happened on half the styles here so far either you or your little friend.  It's like digital dojo storming but you can do it from the safety of your keyboards.  Who gives a crap if WC is or isn't good for the MMA.  Give it a rest.


----------



## Hanzou

Reeksta said:


> Nowhere in that passage do I say that a wing chun practitioner would find it easier to defend themselves against an armed opponent than an unarmed one



You said that your sifu is training you to be prepared for weapons and multiple attackers, thus impeding your ability to be prepared for competitive fighting. You also said that some styles are better for 1:1/ competitive fighting, and other styles are better for fighting in less controlled environments. By your insinuations, I'm assuming that you're stating that Wing Chun falls on the latter half of the equation.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Well you're in luck, because I'm now posting from a desktop;
> 
> 
> 
> So essentially your WC training revolves around fighting armed opponents and multiple opponents, over countering the attacks of a skilled unarmed fighter. AKA Self Defense vs Competition Fighting.
> 
> By that logic, you're arguing that a WC fighter is better at taking down armed assailants on the street than skilled unarmed brawlers in the ring.



here is where that logic actually starts to work. A system that is dedicated to defending an armed assailant has to sacrifice a lot effective strategies against an unarmed one.

eg.
the boxing cover system is quicker and more effective than wing chuns. Because your hands don't leave your head much. They don't create the gaps and openings. But you cant block a knife with a boxing cover because you will get your arms cut off.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> The conversation turned that way because there are 2 of you that can't leave people in other styles alone with out the "well if your art is so good why is it not in MMA"  it has happened on half the styles here so far either you or your little friend.  It's like digital dojo storming but you can do it from the safety of your keyboards.  Who gives a crap if WC is or isn't good for the MMA.  Give it a rest.



i assume everybody that is posting on that topic gives a crap. Otherwise why would they be posting?


----------



## Reeksta

Hanzou said:


> By your insinuations, I'm assuming that you're stating . . .


Well this is the problem isn't it. How about just admitting that I didn't say it


----------



## Tez3

ballen0351 said:


> The conversation turned that way because there are 2 of you that can't leave people in other styles alone with out the "well if your art is so good why is it not in MMA"  it has happened on half the styles here so far either you or your little friend.  It's like digital dojo storming but you can do it from the safety of your keyboards.  Who gives a crap if WC is or isn't good for the MMA.  Give it a rest.




It's not a surprise that nearly all the threads that start out well end up being locked because of the 'MMA is the best, the rest is crap' factor. Expecting this one to be locked very shortly.


----------



## Mephisto

ballen0351 said:


> The conversation turned that way because there are 2 of you that can't leave people in other styles alone with out the "well if your art is so good why is it not in MMA"  it has happened on half the styles here so far either you or your little friend.  It's like digital dojo storming but you can do it from the safety of your keyboards.  Who gives a crap if WC is or isn't good for the MMA.  Give it a rest.



That's my point, who cares? Certain arts aren't cut out for handling experienced fighters but they'll do just fine for the majority of the untrained offenders out there. I think there are just a small handful of arts that aren't as practical as many think they are. A wc guy will have trouble with a boxer, MMA player, or kick boxer, or even a kyukoshin karate practitioner for that matter. If you can't use your punching and kicking art to defeat skilled punchers and kickers than maybe you should re analyze your approach. The problem is the wc guys have just given up and said "well MMA is just a sport" "we train for the deadly streets", when you could just say that maybe some day it will happen, you've already convinced yourself that wc really isn't good enough to be used in the ring. I think it could happen with the right approach. As was alluded to earlier a boxer with boxing alone would not be successful in the ring. If boxing weren't a popular sport you'd hear the sport vs street argument there. But boxers admit the holes in their game and learn to grapple. A few wc guys have tried this approach and they haven't gotten praises and pats on the back from skeptics but they are working on it. It will take generations of refinement to apply it to the ring but one day we may see it. You can try to be part of the solution yourself and show the practicality of your system or you can continue with compliant demos and write MMA off as "just sport".


----------



## J W

Tez3 said:


> *Spot on post*!
> WC is only the latest style to have received the 'it doesn't work in the cage so it's pants' treatment, I imagine when this thread has finally run out of steam, the next style will have already been picked out for the 'versus MMA' treatment. We've already had Aikido trashed, funnily enough using all the same arguments. Bets on for the next style to be bashed?



Thanks, Tez. Well if that's the trend, then I guess we'll be at it a while, considering most martial arts don't make much of an appearance in MMA. Let's do Tai Chi next! Or Bagua! Capoeria? Systema? Krav Maga? How about Kajukenbo...



Reeksta said:


> I didn't ask you to paraphrase me. I asked you to quote where I actually said that a wing chun practitioner would find it easier to defend themselves from an armed opponent than an unarmed one. I will ask one last time: are you able to do this, yes or no?



Hey Reeksta, I understand you're fairly new to Wing Chun, and from your posts that I've read you seem to be picking up the concepts pretty quickly. If you're going to stick with WC for a while, though, you'll quickly realize that it has its fair share of critics; you'll tire yourself out trying to defend WC from all of its various detractors. Best to let the noise fade out and concentrate on more productive discussions. 

Between all of the infighting and bickering between lineages that we warned you about in that other thread and all of the criticism we get from our detractors, a Wing Chun guy could spend all of his time arguing if that's what he'd like to do. 



Transk53 said:


> Here is a short vid with defending against a knife. Anyway, I would think that most MA will have some kind of weapon defense.



I don't know about all of that knee to the elbow stuff. Seems a bit indirect to me, and would likely have a low success rate. Why not just go straight for that kick to the leg?


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> here is where that logic actually starts to work. *A system that is dedicated to* *defending an armed assailant* has to sacrifice a lot effective strategies against an unarmed one.
> 
> eg.
> the boxing cover system is quicker and more effective than wing chuns. Because your hands don't leave your head much. They don't create the gaps and openings. But you cant block a knife with a boxing cover because you will get your arms cut off.



Why would any system wanting to be defending an armed assailant?


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Why would any system wanting to be defending an armed assailant?



in the sense that it is not correct grammar?

i defend a punch. I defend an attack i defend an armed assailant.

or are you wondering why i don't want to get stabbed.


----------



## ballen0351

Mephisto said:


> That's my point, who cares? Certain arts aren't cut out for handling experienced fighters but they'll do just fine for the majority of the untrained offenders out there. I think there are just a small handful of arts that aren't as practical as many think they are. A wc guy will have trouble with a boxer, MMA player, or kick boxer, or even a kyukoshin karate practitioner for that matter. If you can't use your punching and kicking art to defeat skilled punchers and kickers than maybe you should re analyze your approach. The problem is the wc guys have just given up and said "well MMA is just a sport" "we train for the deadly streets", when you could just say that maybe some day it will happen, you've already convinced yourself that wc really isn't good enough to be used in the ring. I think it could happen with the right approach. As was alluded to earlier a boxer with boxing alone would not be successful in the ring. If boxing weren't a popular sport you'd hear the sport vs street argument there. But boxers admit the holes in their game and learn to grapple. A few wc guys have tried this approach and they haven't gotten praises and pats on the back from skeptics but they are working on it. It will take generations of refinement to apply it to the ring but one day we may see it. You can try to be part of the solution yourself and show the practicality of your system or you can continue with compliant demos and write MMA off as "just sport".


No art and all arts are ment for Experienced fighters.  If one art was designed to match up against experienced fighters there would be no winners or loosers.  The winner of a fight had less to do with style and more about the person


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> in the sense that it is not correct grammar?
> 
> i defend a punch. I defend an attack i defend an armed assailant.
> 
> or are you wondering why i don't want to get stabbed.



Grammar has nothing to do with it. You are saying that you are defending an armed assailant. You are saying you defend an attack, that's just nonsense. Nobody does that.


----------



## Reeksta

J W said:


> Hey Reeksta, I understand you're fairly new to Wing Chun, and from your posts that I've read you seem to be picking up the concepts pretty quickly. If you're going to stick with WC for a while, though, you'll quickly realize that it has its fair share of critics; you'll tire yourself out trying to defend WC from all of its various detractors. Best to let the noise fade out and concentrate on more productive discussions.


Thank you for the advice; it would certainly seem to be correct. I'll try to save my energies for more positive discussion and bite my tongue a bit more in future


----------



## Transk53

You know what, I am new to Wing Chun, but why does it have to so argumentative. Look to some discussion with Wing Chun about Wing Chun


----------



## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> Why would any system wanting to be defending an armed assailant?



I'm not sure I understand this, are you questioning why a system would teach an unarmed person to defend against an armed attack such as a knife? 



ballen0351 said:


> No art and all arts are ment for Experienced fighters.  If one art was designed to match up against experienced fighters there would be no winners or loosers.  The winner of a fight had less to do with style and more about the person



Again, I'm not sure I understand this. If you train an art that spars you are training to defend an attack from an experienced fighter. Any sportive system like judo for example trains you how to defend against a skilled fighter. If you can handle a skilled fighter you can handle an unskilled fighter but the reverse is not true.


----------



## Transk53

J W said:


> Thanks, Tez. Well if that's the trend, then I guess we'll be at it a while, considering most martial arts don't make much of an appearance in MMA. Let's do Tai Chi next! Or Bagua! Capoeria? Systema? Krav Maga? How about Kajukenbo...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Reeksta, I understand you're fairly new to Wing Chun, and from your posts that I've read you seem to be picking up the concepts pretty quickly. If you're going to stick with WC for a while, though, you'll quickly realize that it has its fair share of critics; you'll tire yourself out trying to defend WC from all of its various detractors. Best to let the noise fade out and concentrate on more productive discussions.
> 
> Between all of the infighting and bickering between lineages that we warned you about in that other thread and all of the criticism we get from our detractors, a Wing Chun guy could spend all of his time arguing if that's what he'd like to do.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about all of that knee to the elbow stuff. Seems a bit indirect to me, and would likely have a low success rate. Why not just go straight for that kick to the leg?



Yeah, the more I thought about it, it would be impractical even in close. Yeah, straight to the, but would have to be devastating.


----------



## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> I'm not sure I understand this, are you questioning why a system would teach an unarmed person to defend against an armed attack such as a knife?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I'm not sure I understand this. If you train an art that spars you are training to defend an attack from an experienced fighter. Any sportive system like judo for example trains you how to defend against a skilled fighter. If you can handle a skilled fighter you can handle an unskilled fighter but the reverse is not true.





No, what I'm questioning is why he's saying he would defend someone who is carrying a weapon which is what he said. Personally I'd _defend myself against_ someone with a weapon. the only people who defend armed assailants are the lawyers they employ after they've been caught by the police, you don't defend people who go around armed with intent to harm.


----------



## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> No, what I'm questioning is why he's saying he would defend someone who is carrying a weapon which is what he said. Personally I'd _defend myself against_ someone with a weapon. the only people who defend armed assailants are the lawyers they employ after they've been caught by the police, you don't defend people who go around armed with intent to harm.


Ah, well I'm sure it was a typo. Maybe not though, maybe you're just being pedantic. I'm not sure why someone who has a weapon would need defending maybe in some very specific scenario.  Not sure too many arts cover that.


----------



## ballen0351

Mephisto said:


> Again, I'm not sure I understand this. If you train an art that spars you are training to defend an attack from an experienced fighter.


No your training to spar. 



> Any sportive system like judo for example trains you how to defend against a skilled fighter.


No it trains you to compete against other Judo players


> If you can handle a skilled fighter you can handle an unskilled fighter


No if they were true you would never have an upset.  You wouldnt need to fight at all just write your skills on paper and who ever has a list that is longer wins



> but the reverse is not true.


Nope again that comes down to the individual not the style


----------



## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> Ah, well I'm sure it was a typo. Maybe not though, maybe you're just being pedantic. I'm not sure why someone who has a weapon would need defending maybe in some very specific scenario.  Not sure too many arts cover that.




No, I'm not being pedantic, it's what was written, it says exactly that and it's not understandable because no one defends armed assailants.


----------



## J W

Tez3 said:


> No, I'm not being pedantic, it's what was written, it says exactly that and it's not understandable because no one defends armed assailants.



Oh, English. I'm still not certain that Americans and Brits speak the same language.


----------



## Tez3

J W said:


> Oh, English. I'm still not certain that Americans and Brits speak the same language.


Yep I read it exactly as it was written, you defend someone when you look after them, stand up for them, speak up for them etc


----------



## Mephisto

Well as usual the wc crowd is getting increasingly irrational. We're a few posts shy of issuing challenges that will never happen and the inevitable rage quit.


ballen0351 said:


> No your training to spar.
> 
> 
> No it trains you to compete against other Judo players
> 
> No if they were true you would never have an upset.  You wouldnt need to fight at all just write your skills on paper and who ever has a list that is longer wins
> 
> 
> Nope again that comes down to the individual not the style


Guess what, what you spar someone that has experience YOU'RE sparring someone with experience unless it's their first time sparring. In judo matches you'll be working defenses and counters. In a competition you still work defense and counters while you compete. It's not an isolated bubble where no fighting skills are used. After that you pretty much lose all coherence. Yes upsets happen but that doesn't change the fact that martial arts competitors fight other skilled competitors and also defend attacks from said competitors.


----------



## ballen0351

Mephisto said:


> Well as usual the wc crowd is getting increasingly irrational. We're a few posts shy of issuing challenges that will never happen and the inevitable rage




Guess what, what you spar someone that has experience YOU'RE sparring someone with experience unless it's their first time sparring
[/quote]
Guess what that has nothing to do with self defense.  It has nothing to do with anything outside your school. It has nothing to do with styles


> . In judo matches you'll be working defenses and counters. In a competition you still work defense and counters while you compete


Great it works well against other judo players as long as you follow the rules again has nothing to do with self defense. its all about the sport.  Nothing wrong with playing games Im just not into it


> . It's not an isolated bubble where no fighting skills are used. After that you pretty much lose all coherence. Yes upsets happen but that doesn't change the fact that martial arts competitors fight other skilled competitors and also defend attacks from said competitors.


And that has nothing to do with STYLES which is what your were talking about comparing styles that do spar vs styles that dont.  So in reality styles dont matter its all about the person.  There is no BETTER style.  Actually my main style I practice if I took it into the ring Id never loose.  But Firearms are against the rules


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Hanzou said:


> So essentially your WC training revolves around fighting armed opponents and multiple opponents, over countering the attacks of a skilled unarmed fighter. AKA Self Defense vs Competition Fighting.
> 
> By that logic, you're arguing that a WC fighter is better at taking down armed assailants on the street than skilled unarmed brawlers in the ring.



Not necessarily. Let's look at some (completely made up) figures to see why that might not be the case.

Suppose an optimum set of unarmed tactics against a skilled puncher gets you a 90% chance of success, but an optimum set of unarmed tactics against a knife-wielding attacker gets you only a 30% chance of success.

Now suppose martial art A cuts out a bunch of techniques that are effective against a puncher, but dangerous to try against an attacker with a knife. (clinching, covering like a boxer, etc). That might drop art A's effectiveness vs a skilled puncher down to 50%, while leaving its effectiveness vs the knife at 30%.

Meanwhile, martial art B keeps all those techniques and thus manages 90% effectiveness against a puncher, but success against the knife drops down to 10%.

This gives you a situation where martial art A is superior for knife defense, art B is superior for punch defense, but A still has a higher success against the punch than against the knife.



Tez3 said:


> Grammar has nothing to do with it. You are saying that you are defending an armed assailant. You are saying you defend an attack, that's just nonsense. Nobody does that.



Use of the phrase "defend an attack/punch/armed attacker" to mean "defend (against) an attack/punch/armed attacker" isn't exactly standard English, but I've seen it before. It's pretty clear from context what was meant.



Mephisto said:


> If you can handle a skilled fighter you can handle an unskilled fighter but the reverse is not true.



Yes ... and no. There are always tradeoffs to be made, and the ones you might choose against a skilled fighter are not necessarily the ones you might make against an unskilled one. (I'll expand on this later - I need to be heading out to the dojo now.)


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Guess what that has nothing to do with self defense.  It has nothing to do with anything outside your school. It has nothing to do with styles
> 
> Great it works well against other judo players as long as you follow the rules again has nothing to do with self defense. its all about the sport.  Nothing wrong with playing games Im just not into it
> 
> And that has nothing to do with STYLES which is what your were talking about comparing styles that do spar vs styles that dont.  So in reality styles dont matter its all about the person.  There is no BETTER style.  Actually my main style I practice if I took it into the ring Id never loose.  But Firearms are against the rules



If it was all about the person, we should be seeing a much wider variety if styles in MMA, and quite a few more "pure" styles than what we're seeing in the sport. The fact of the matter is that you can't enter the cage without style x,y, and z, or stylistic equivalents. That kind of proves that it isn't just the person, but the style as well.


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> Use of the phrase "defend an attack/punch/armed attacker" to mean "defend (against) an attack/punch/armed attacker" isn't exactly standard English, but I've seen it before. It's pretty clear from context what was meant.




No, it wasn't clear from context it was a very short post with no other explanation. If you have seen it before you obviously know what it means, I haven't, so didn't.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> If it was all about the person, we should be seeing a much wider variety if styles in MMA, and quite a few more "pure" styles than what we're seeing in the sport. The fact of the matter is that you can't enter the cage without style x,y, and z, or stylistic equivalents. That kind of proves that it isn't just the person, but the style as well.


Nonsense.  Damn near every style is represented in MMA at some level.


----------



## Mephisto

Tony Dismukes said:


> Not necessarily. Let's look at some (completely made up) figures to see why that might not be the case.
> 
> Suppose an optimum set of unarmed tactics against a skilled puncher gets you a 90% chance of success, but an optimum set of unarmed tactics against a knife-wielding attacker gets you only a 30% chance of success.
> 
> Now suppose martial art A cuts out a bunch of techniques that are effective against a puncher, but dangerous to try against an attacker with a knife. (clinching, covering like a boxer, etc). That might drop art A's effectiveness vs a skilled puncher down to 50%, while leaving its effectiveness vs the knife at 30%.
> 
> Meanwhile, martial art B keeps all those techniques and thus manages 90% effectiveness against a puncher, but success against the knife drops down to 10%.
> 
> This gives you a situation where martial art A is superior for knife defense, art B is superior for punch defense, but A still has a higher success against the punch than against the knife.
> 
> 
> 
> Use of the phrase "defend an attack/punch/armed attacker" to mean "defend (against) an attack/punch/armed attacker" isn't exactly standard English, but I've seen it before. It's pretty clear from context what was meant.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes ... and no. There are always tradeoffs to be made, and the ones you might choose against a skilled fighter are not necessarily the ones you might make against an unskilled one. (I'll expand on this later - I need to be heading out to the dojo now.)


 I think most of what you said makes sense. I'd argued that any empty hand vs knife is pretty low percentage but I think that's beside the point, I see where you're going.


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Nonsense.  Damn near every style is represented in MMA at some level.



Eh, not really. Perhaps some theories and concepts, but every MA is definitely not represented.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Eh, not really. Perhaps some theories and concepts, but every MA is definitely not represented.


Prove it


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Prove it



Post some vids of guys doing Aikido in the cage.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Post some vids of guys doing Aikido in the cage.


You do it.  Im not the one making claims that I know EVERY MMA fighter around the world and I know what they are trained in.  Thats you so you do it

Not to mention MMA is a sport not real life so..........


----------



## Mephisto

Mephisto said:


> I think most of what you said makes sense. I'd argued that any empty hand vs knife is pretty low percentage but I think that's beside the point, I see where you're going.


Accidently posted and was unable to edit my above post.  It's important to realize where an arts specialty lies. Some specialties like blade defense are more important for street, understandably. Blade vs empty hand stacks the odd against you ideally one would have both blade and empty hand skills. However, I've never known wc to be an art sought out for blade defense skills. As an FMA practitioner, I've run across quite a few wc guys taking up FMA for blade defense and ability, and the wc reaction needs some significant modification based on my experience.


----------



## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> Post some vids of guys doing Aikido in the cage.



Hey do me a favour, get around to reading the other thread that you have been loud!!


----------



## Mephisto

ballen0351 said:


> Nonsense.  Damn near every style is represented in MMA at some level.


How do you figure?


----------



## ballen0351

Mephisto said:


> How do you figure?


Intelligence, common sense, life experience


----------



## Transk53

Mephisto said:


> I'm not sure I understand this, are you questioning why a system would teach an unarmed person to defend against an armed attack such as a knife?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I'm not sure I understand this. If you train an art that spars you are training to defend an attack from an experienced fighter. Any sportive system like judo for example trains you how to defend against a skilled fighter. If you can handle a skilled fighter you can handle an unskilled fighter but the reverse is not true.



No because the unskilled fighter will resort to any type of stuff.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Tony Dismukes said:


> the ones you might choose against a skilled fighter are not necessarily the ones you might make against an unskilled one.


Agree!

If you raise your guard to invite kick, or drop your guard to invite punch, an experience fighter can see your opening and take your bait. If you use it on an un-experienced fighter, he may not even be able to read your opening.

I'm a very good Mahjong player. When I have a hand of (1, 3, 5), if I play with an

- experienced player, I would discard 5 and expect 2 and set up my trap.
- un-experience player, I would discard 1 and expect 4. Since he may not even understand my trap, I won't bother to set up that trap, It will be much safer for me because it's much safer to discard 1 than to discard 5 in the Mahjong game (take less risk for me).


----------



## Steve

ballen0351 said:


> You do it.  Im not the one making claims that I know EVERY MMA fighter around the world and I know what they are trained in.  Thats you so you do it
> 
> Not to mention MMA is a sport not real life so..........


Yeah, go ahead and post some videos of aikido not being represented in the cage.  

Wait.  That's a silly request.  Can we all pull back just a little and stop picking fights with each other?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mephisto

ballen0351 said:


> Intelligence, common sense, life experience



Ah well that's probably because you're  smarter and a deeper thinker than me!


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Yeah, go ahead and post some videos of aikido not being represented in the cage.
> 
> Wait.  That's a silly request.  Can we all pull back just a little and stop picking fights with each other?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Hey Steve, what you do you if I insulted you, ain't gonna happen, but still. Where do you draw the draw the line with insults to you're BJJ? Same with me


----------



## Tez3

I think that the fact that Joe Rogan, who is a legend in his own lunchtime, is so anti WC calling it at best ineffective and at worse a scam, has a lot to do with how the MMA fan boys think of WC. Personally I have no time for him, he pointlessly upset a friend of mine last year which lead to his fans hurling a huge amount of abuse at her plus he takes dugs as well as advocating the use of drugs such as cannabis, 'magic' mushrooms and DMT. I don't think 'sharing' his opinion and making it sound like fact should be part of his job description when chuntering at the UFC fight nights.


----------



## ballen0351

Mephisto said:


> Ah well that's probably because you're  smarter and a deeper thinker than me!


Nope just plain old common sense.  I train is several arts so I train MMA, so put Goju, Judo, Aikido on the list of positives for MMA representations.  I've done some BJJ as well so add it on there.  I know a TKD school that added bjj to its school so there is another MMA art represented.  I know an MMA school that has Judo, Hapkido, BJJ, and Muay T.  So add it to the list.  There is a Kung Fu school about 20 miles from me that also teaches BJJ so add Kung Fu.  I know a TKD school that also teaches Capoeria so add that one.  So lost of arts are represented in MMA.  I can keep going if you want and that's just here.  Let's not even get into entire other continents like Europe I can even attempt to pretend I know all the combos over there or Asia so........


----------



## Transk53

ballen0351 said:


> You got no problem telling us non BJJ Fanboys  how were messing things up.  I have yet to see you tell your 2 boys to chill steve.  Little bias hmmmmm



Intrigued.


----------



## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> I think that the fact that Joe Rogan, who is a legend in his own lunchtime, is so anti WC calling it at best ineffective and at worse a scam, has a lot to do with how the MMA fan boys think of WC. Personally I have no time for him, he pointlessly upset a friend of mine last year which lead to his fans hurling a huge amount of abuse at her plus he takes dugs as well as advocating the use of drugs such as cannabis, 'magic' mushrooms and DMT. I don't think 'sharing' his opinion and making it sound like fact should be part of his job description when chuntering at the UFC fight nights.


Not sure who you're referring to here, but I've already mentioned that I'm not an MMA fanboy, don't follow it, don't train it. I think you're taking analysis and criticism as personal insults. I've mentioned several times that wc has value, you guys gloss right over that. 


ballen0351 said:


> Nope just plain old common sense.  I train is several arts so I train MMA, so put Goju, Judo, Aikido on the list of positives for MMA representations.  I've done some BJJ as well so add it on there.  I know a TKD school that added bjj to its school so there is another MMA art represented.  I know an MMA school that has Judo, Hapkido, BJJ, and Muay T.  So add it to the list.  There is a Kung Fu school about 20 miles from me that also teaches BJJ so add Kung Fu.  I know a TKD school that also teaches Capoeria so add that one.  So lost of arts are represented in MMA.  I can keep going if you want and that's just here.  Let's not even get into entire other continents like Europe I can even attempt to pretend I know all the combos over there or Asia so........


I figured you meant in some ridiculous way like that. But please do go on, I'm sure you love to hear yourself talk.


----------



## ballen0351

Mephisto said:


> I figured you meant in some ridiculous way like that. But please do go on, I'm sure you love to hear yourself talk.


Am I wrong.  Is that not MMA?  Nothing ridiculous about it.  I train it and use it in the real world as a cop on the streets with out a ref, or corner crews, or time limits.


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> You do it.  Im not the one making claims that I know EVERY MMA fighter around the world and I know what they are trained in.  Thats you so you do it.



Well that's the point, Aikido is pretty nonexistent in MMA. 

There goes your argument.



> Not to mention MMA is a sport not real life so..........



Yeah, but based on your previous argument, its the person not the style. So we should be seeing some Aikido practitioners doing their art in the octagon.


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Lol there is aikido in the ring bud just because you can't see it.



Then post some.


----------



## Steve

Transk53 said:


> Hey Steve, what you do you if I insulted you, ain't gonna happen, but still. Where do you draw the draw the line with insults to you're BJJ? Same with me


Anymore, I'd just report the post of its a direct insult to me.   If it's a critique of Bjj I would either ignore it or respond to the critique.   There's been plenty of bagging on Bjj lately and it really doesn't bother me at all.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve

ballen0351 said:


> Nope just plain old common sense.  I train is several arts so I train MMA, so put Goju, Judo, Aikido on the list of positives for MMA representations.  I've done some BJJ as well so add it on there.  I know a TKD school that added bjj to its school so there is another MMA art represented.  I know an MMA school that has Judo, Hapkido, BJJ, and Muay T.  So add it to the list.  There is a Kung Fu school about 20 miles from me that also teaches BJJ so add Kung Fu.  I know a TKD school that also teaches Capoeria so add that one.  So lost of arts are represented in MMA.  I can keep going if you want and that's just here.  Let's not even get into entire other continents like Europe I can even attempt to pretend I know all the combos over there or Asia so........


Training in several arts isn't Mma.  Mma is a sport that means something pretty specific.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ballen0351

Steve said:


> Training in several arts isn't Mma.  Mma is a sport that means something pretty specific.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Says who?  I mix all my arts up and use what I like at that time.  Just because I don't play games with it doesn't mean it's not MMA


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> That's your job little fella now run along



Like I said, its not there. Even Aikidoka say its not there. So I'm curious what the heck you're even talking about.


----------



## Steve

ballen0351 said:


> Says who?  I mix all my arts up and use what I like at that time.  Just because I don't play games with it doesn't mean it's not MMA


It actually does.   Mma is a sport.  You can train in multiple arts and blend them together but Mma remains a sport.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ballen0351

Steve said:


> It actually does.   Mma is a sport.  You can train in multiple arts and blend them together but Mma remains a sport.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Like I said, its not there. Even Aikidoka say its not there. So I'm curious what the heck you're even talking about.


Ok well this isn't an aikido thread and I don't really care.  You were given the hint it's out there look for it or don't.


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Anymore, I'd just report the post of its a direct insult to me.   If it's a critique of Bjj I would either ignore it or respond to the critique.   There's been plenty of bagging on Bjj lately and it really doesn't bother me at all.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yeah that's cool


----------



## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> Then post some.



You are just trying to continue the argument. Twat!


----------



## Mephisto

ballen0351 said:


> Says who?  I mix all my arts up and use what I like at that time.  Just because I don't play games with it doesn't mean it's not MMA


Everyone here has said MMA is "just a sport" and of course it has those rules that render mma impotent on the street in your book. Now you're switching the definition to suit your need. You're also attempting to demean the sport of mma by referring to it as a "game". We could call chi sau "patty cake" but that's insulting and I don't agree with it but many in the mma "fanboy" community do use that term to refer to chi sau, it's petty. despite your claims no one here has insulted you or wc but you're get very close to outright insulting mma, let's try to keep it a reasonable conversation?


----------



## Steve

Transk53 said:


> You are just trying to continue the argument. Twat!


Dude,  this isn't okay.


----------



## Mephisto

Transk53 said:


> You are just trying to continue the argument. Twat!


And now the outright name calling has started! It only makes you look bad.


----------



## Steve

ballen0351 said:


> I would be if he was a BJJ fanboy more Bias


Ballen, this isn't okay, either.


----------



## Transk53

Transk53 said:


> You are just trying to continue the argument. Twat!



Just playing around, disagree maybe, but dislike is harsh.


----------



## Transk53

Surely you are not up you're own **** here, huh, shocking lol.


----------



## Transk53

Mephisto said:


> And now the outright name calling has started! It only makes you look bad.



Not really. Hey, he answers my question, I relent. You are his support, please convey.


----------



## Reeksta

Tony Dismukes said:


> Suppose an optimum set of unarmed tactics against a skilled puncher gets you a 90% chance of success, but an optimum set of unarmed tactics against a knife-wielding attacker gets you only a 30% chance of success.
> 
> Now suppose martial art A cuts out a bunch of techniques that are effective against a puncher, but dangerous to try against an attacker with a knife. (clinching, covering like a boxer, etc). That might drop art A's effectiveness vs a skilled puncher down to 50%, while leaving its effectiveness vs the knife at 30%.
> 
> Meanwhile, martial art B keeps all those techniques and thus manages 90% effectiveness against a puncher, but success against the knife drops down to 10%.
> 
> This gives you a situation where martial art A is superior for knife defense, art B is superior for punch defense, but A still has a higher success against the punch than against the knife


This is exactly the point I was attempting to make. Well put


----------



## Jake104

Mephisto said:


> *The in and out approach with a weapon is a wise and valid approach. You move in to kill, if the opponents defends or counters you move out angle and enter again. It's standarn boxing and if you train in a solid FMA that draws from boxing you probably do it. *You can have the classical "one punch one kill" mentality but reality is quite different and you must react accordingly. I'm not talking about dancing with a weapon although you see a fair amount of that in a lot of FMA sparring which may be a valid approach as well but it's not my approach. Evasion is a valuable strategy. My point is you said boxing is not good against unarmed opponent and presented wc as a better alternative. But in you admission your FMA uses a boxing approach as do many FMA systems, so perhaps you are wrong on this one. I will add that there is quite a bit of trapping in FMA so wc may have a place there but you need a strong evasive game and in and out game to pull it off. I use trapping a lot to enter and get a solid shot but I pick and choose where to apply it, I don't try to trap every strike weapon or not.


If Someone moves in with a knife how are you going to defend? Just curious?  You gong to block? You going to bob and weave?. I highly doubt it.

I am friends with a guy that got attacked by two guys one had a knife. They were trying to rob him. He ended up taking the knife and killing one. He suffered massive lacerations and puncher wounds. I asked how he took the knife and how it unfolded. He told me as they wrestled for the knife he punched the guy in throat. The guy released his grip for a second an he took the knife killing the one guy and wounding the other. But he was stabbed and sliced repeatedly in the process. At no time wAs there disengagement . He told me if he could have disengaged he would of ran. Your "if he counters and than you angle and reengage" is BS. If he counters and you disengage. You run, plain and simple. I have seen this guys scars on his back, stomach,legs, hands and arms. It's horrific! He still has pAin and issue from it. It happened 20 years ago. So don't get weapon combat twisted. It's not like the movies. It's real life and scary.


----------



## Jake104

Mephisto said:


> Hmmm where do I start? First I'm not going to pull a stick or knife on you, this is just an Internet discussion don't worry. Also the idea of a weapons duel where you have time to draw a gun is not realistic. The whole idea of a weapons duel in general isn't very realistic in most modern societies but we still train it. The in and out approach with a weapon is a wise and valid approach. You move in to kill, if the opponents defends or counters you move out angle and enter again. It's standarn boxing and if you train in a solid FMA that draws from boxing you probably do it. You can have the classical "one punch one kill" mentality but reality is quite different and you must react accordingly. I'm not talking about dancing with a weapon although you see a fair amount of that in a lot of FMA sparring which may be a valid approach as well but it's not my approach. Evasion is a valuable strategy. My point is you said boxing is not good against unarmed opponent and presented wc as a better alternative. But in you admission your FMA uses a boxing approach as do many FMA systems, so perhaps you are wrong on this one. I will add that there is quite a bit of trapping in FMA so wc may have a place there but you need a strong evasive game and in and out game to pull it off. I use trapping a lot to enter and get a solid shot but I pick and choose where to apply it, I don't try to trap every strike weapon or not.


Aah, yeah, like duh! I wasn't saying you were literally  going to attack me.


----------



## Jake104

My FMA coach is from a boxing background. But He still teaches the art direct and to the point. No fancy crap.. He knows the guy that got stabbed too. We both worked with him. So it's not some fantasy story i just made up.

Funny thing is when he showed me the scars. I was like holy sh@?. I asked so how'd you get the knife? Expecting some fancy elaborate move. It was completely to the contrary.


----------



## Steve

Jake104 said:


> If Someone moves in with a knife how are you going to defend? Just curious?  You gong to block? You going to bob and weave?. I highly doubt it.
> 
> I am friends with a guy that got attacked by two guys one had a knife. They were trying to rob him. He ended up taking the knife and killing one. He suffered massive lacerations and puncher wounds. I asked how he took the knife and how it unfolded. He told me as they wrestled for the knife he punched the guy in throat. The guy released his grip for a second an he took the knife killing the one guy and wounding the other. But he was stabbed and sliced repeatedly in the process. At no time wAs there disengagement . He told me if he could have disengaged he would of ran. Your "if he counters and than you angle and reengage" is BS. If he counters and you disengage. You run, plain and simple. I have seen this guys scars on his back, stomach,legs, hands and arms. It's horrific! He still has pAin and issue from it. It happened 20 years ago. So don't get weapon combat twisted. It's not like the movies. It's real life and scary.


I read somewhere that in a knife fight, the difference between the winner and loser is often that the loser dies right away and the winner dies from his wounds later.


----------



## Jake104

Steve said:


> I read somewhere that in a knife fight, the difference between the winner and loser is often that the loser dies right away and the winner dies from his wounds later.


Well this guy ( his name is Rick)  told me he drove himself to the ER and was literally dripping blood on the floor before any one noticed. He also said that since it was knife wounds they did not give him any thing for pain. So he suffered through the whole thing wide awake. No cell phones back then. So that's why he drove himself. He was an arena football player and was jogging early in the morning when he was assaulted.  Like I said he killed one and the other got like 100+ years in jail. They tried the other guy for his friends death


----------



## Mephisto

Jake104 said:


> If Someone moves in with a knife how are you going to defend? Just curious?  You gong to block? You going to bob and weave?. I highly doubt it.
> 
> I am friends with a guy that got attacked by two guys one had a knife. They were trying to rob him. He ended up taking the knife and killing one. He suffered massive lacerations and puncher wounds. I asked how he took the knife and how it unfolded. He told me as they wrestled for the knife he punched the guy in throat. The guy released his grip for a second an he took the knife killing the one guy and wounding the other. But he was stabbed and sliced repeatedly in the process. At no time wAs there disengagement . He told me if he could have disengaged he would of ran. Your "if he counters and than you angle and reengage" is BS. If he counters and you disengage. You run, plain and simple. I have seen this guys scars on his back, stomach,legs, hands and arms. It's horrific! He still has pAin and issue from it. It happened 20 years ago. So don't get weapon combat twisted. It's not like the movies. It's real life and scary.


How I react would depend entirely on the attack, head movement is certainly a possibility for a high line attack. Your friends anecdote is no more special than any other story on the Internet to me.

disengaging is certainly an option and the distance for the disengagement may depend depending on the location and surroundings, obviously you run if you can. Also your view of disengaging may be different from mine, a simple slide back can create an evasion and an opening to re enter and counter. But this thread isn't about that, it's about why mma is just a game and useless in the $treetz.


----------



## Jake104

Mephisto said:


> How I react would depend entirely on the attack, head movement is certainly a possibility for a high line attack. Your friends anecdote is no more special than any other story on the Internet to me.
> 
> disengaging is certainly an option and the distance for the disengagement may depend depending on the location and surroundings, obviously you run if you can. Also your view of disengaging may be different from mine, a simple slide back can create an evasion and an opening to re enter and counter. But this thread isn't about that, it's about why mma is just a game and useless in the $treetz.


Actually it's about Hawkins Cheung having nice Wing Chun. For your sake I hope you are right or you are never put in that situation.


----------



## J W

Mephisto said:


> But this thread isn't about that, it's about why mma is just a game and useless in the $treetz.



Actually, it was about a Hawkins Cheung demo video, or at least it was supposed to be.

This thread has turned into a complete train wreck. Why can't I look away!


----------



## J W

Jake104 said:


> Actually it's about Hawkins Cheung having nice Wing Chun.



Ha, you beat me to it.


----------



## Jake104

J W said:


> Actually, it was about a Hawkins Cheung demo video, or at least it was supposed to be.
> 
> This thread has turned into a complete train wreck. Why can't I look away!


IK! Last night it was at page 7. Today I look and it's at 13. I need to catch up!


----------



## Jake104

I was out today having beers znd a nice talk with my coach/ sifu that's in town! Was fun!


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Guess what, what you spar someone that has experience YOU'RE sparring someone with experience unless it's their first time sparring


Guess what that has nothing to do with self defense.  It has nothing to do with anything outside your school. It has nothing to do with styles

Great it works well against other judo players as long as you follow the rules again has nothing to do with self defense. its all about the sport.  Nothing wrong with playing games Im just not into it

And that has nothing to do with STYLES which is what your were talking about comparing styles that do spar vs styles that dont.  So in reality styles dont matter its all about the person.  There is no BETTER style.  Actually my main style I practice if I took it into the ring Id never loose.  But Firearms are against the rules[/QUOTE]

except wing chun people do spar. So what does that say about them?


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> except wing chun people do spar. So what does that say about them?


It says nothing about them.  It says if they do it and they like it awsome.  It says of they are happy who cares.  It says I unlike some don't care how, why, or by what methods people choose to spend their time and learning their chosen style regardless of the methods they chose or not to chose to test it.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> If it was all about the person, we should be seeing a much wider variety if styles in MMA, and quite a few more "pure" styles than what we're seeing in the sport. The fact of the matter is that you can't enter the cage without style x,y, and z, or stylistic equivalents. That kind of proves that it isn't just the person, but the style as well.



actually i think that gets complicated.

i might give that its own thread when i can be bothered.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> It says nothing about them.  It says if they do it and they like it awsome.  It says of they are happy who cares.  It says I unlike some don't care how, why, or by what methods people choose to spend their time and learning their chosen style regardless of the methods they chose or not to chose to test it.



just has nothing to do with self defence.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> just has nothing to do with self defence.


Sparring doesnt.  BUT there is far more to WC then sparing.  You seem to get focused on one small aspect of a style and make assumptions that the one small part is all there is.  It's not the case.  Sparing is fun it's a good exercise it's ok to train but it's not all there is.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Am I wrong.  Is that not MMA?  Nothing ridiculous about it.  I train it and use it in the real world as a cop on the streets with out a ref, or corner crews, or time limits.



yes and no.

combining styles is mma. But is is ambiguous if you did say,yellow bamboo and taebow. And called that mma. 

i mentioned that sort of in my mma is made up thread. Its legitimacy is grounded in the competition aspect.


----------



## Hanzou

Isn't it true that many WC schools don't spar?


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Sparring doesnt.  BUT there is far more to WC then sparing.  You seem to get focused on one small aspect of a style and make assumptions that the one small part is all there is.  It's not the case.  Sparing is fun it's a good exercise it's ok to train but it's not all there is.



i believe resisted training is pretty important in preserving the honesty of that system. Sparring being a part of that.

Geoff Thompson said it well regarding animal day in that it reveals the person.


----------



## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Isn't it true that many WC schools don't spar?



i did in mine. (i was only there for a month though)

but i met willem chung.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> i believe resisted training is pretty important in preserving the honesty of that system. Sparring being a part of that.
> 
> Geoff Thompson said it well regarding animal day in that it reveals the person.


Again I didn't say not to spar I said it's not realistic and isn't self defense.  Your free to train however you see fit and so I'm I.  I've made it this far in life so it's working for me


----------



## Jake104

Hanzou said:


> Isn't it true that many WC schools don't spar?


We did in mine also. We didn't just go at it in the beginning though. Other wise the WC would of been thrown out the window . We did amp it up later as skill increased. My teacher encouraged us to also spar with other arts outside of our school. I learned more outside sparring than sparring with other Wing Chunners. Like not to freeze and reset. You do that with a boxer or good striker and you are done. I also learned how to take a hit and blocking everything is a myth. All from sparring


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Hanzou said:


> Isn't it true that many WC schools don't spar?


Most WC school spar but not "full contact - trying to knock each other out". There is a big difference between:

- you know that your opponent tries to knock your head off, vs.
- your opponent will just hit on your face with little touch.

In the following short clip, you can see some real tension there.


----------



## Jake104

ballen0351 said:


> Again I didn't say not to spar I said it's not realistic and isn't self defense.  Your free to train however you see fit and so I'm I.  I've made it this far in life so it's working for me


I agree different strokes different folks. Sparring is not self defense. I did get other things from it that I think will help in SD. Like getting use to getting hit and timing etc. sparring is not for everybody.


----------



## wtxs

After 274 post and endless bantering, derailing and hijacking, anyone remember what the original post is all about.  How about get back on subject, start an new thread ... and STFU already.


----------



## Mephisto

drop bear said:


> i believe resisted training is pretty important in preserving the honesty of that system. Sparring being a part of that.
> 
> Geoff Thompson said it well regarding animal day in that it reveals the person.


I agree and say it's the most important attribute in a system. A fight or attack will happen in real time with an aggressive, resisting, reacting opponent. If you're not dealing with an opponent like this you're not training for reality. chi sau is a start, I'm just surprised to see all the push back and lack of importance placed on sparring. Didn't Bruce lee say something about learning to swim on land? Isn't he basically the gospel when it comes to chun?


ballen0351 said:


> Again I didn't say not to spar I said it's not realistic and isn't self defense.  Your free to train however you see fit and so I'm I.  I've made it this far in life so it's working for me


I'm glad I'm free to train however I want, but sparring is as close to realistic as you can get. What do you suggest is a more realistic way to train? You're starting to sound like RBSD guy. Would you prefer scenario based training? 



wtxs said:


> After 274 post and endless bantering, derailing and hijacking, anyone remember what the original post is all about.  How about get back on subject, start an new thread ... and STFU already.



How about you get things back on track instead of crying about it. This is a conversation not an interview, conversations naturally will develope and change topic bring it back on track of you wish.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Mephisto said:


> Didn't Bruce lee say something about learning to swim on land? Isn't he basically the gospel when it comes to chun?



Bruce might be the gospel when it comes to JKD, but I'm sure plenty of Chunners will be happy to tell you that he wasn't that advanced in his Wing Chun study.



Mephisto said:


> I'm glad I'm free to train however I want, but sparring is as close to realistic as you can get. What do you suggest is a more realistic way to train? You're starting to sound like RBSD guy. Would you prefer scenario based training?



I'm a huge advocate of sparring. There are certain skills and attributes that it can develop better than any other training method. that said, it's not tremendously realistic as a simulation of a self-defense situation*. Scenario training is better in that regard.

*(It _can_ be very realistic as a simulation of certain types of fighting situations, but that's not the same as self defense.)


----------



## ballen0351

Mephisto said:


> I'm glad I'm free to train however I want, but sparring is as close to realistic as you can get. What do you suggest is a more realistic way to train? You're starting to sound like RBSD guy. Would you prefer scenario based training?


LOL Sparing is NOTHING like real life.  And Im not sure why your taking a shot at RBSD.  I perfer what works for me.  Look this has nothing to do with the topic so Ill leave it there.  Ive gotten my hand smacked for posting off topic and being "mean"  So If you believe sparring is real thats fine.  I train cops for the real world and we dont spar.  Take that for what you will


----------



## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> Not sure who you're referring to here, but I've already mentioned that I'm not an MMA fanboy, don't follow it, don't train it. I think you're taking analysis and criticism as personal insults. I've mentioned several times that wc has value, you guys gloss right over that.
> 
> .



???  it was a post just that, it wasn't addressed to anyone, it was a thought, maybe some will agree some wont, it wasn't personal to you in any way.
I'm also not sure what criticism and analysis you think I'm taking as a personal insult? Is it what's written about MMA or WC, because I'm also not sure what you think I've said.


----------



## Mephisto

ballen0351 said:


> LOL Sparing is NOTHING like real life.  And Im not sure why your taking a shot at RBSD.  I perfer what works for me.  Look this has nothing to do with the topic so Ill leave it there.  Ive gotten my hand smacked for posting off topic and being "mean"  So If you believe sparring is real thats fine.  I train cops for the real world and we dont spar.  Take that for what you will


Sparring is nothing like real life? Wow! Do you expect that people won't punch and kick you? I wasn't taking a jab at rbsd just trying to see where you're coming from. How do you put the techniques you train to the test? What in your book gets close to real life? Obviously you can't perfectly simulate real life but sparring is close, it brings resistance, unpredictability and aggression to the picture all of which are very real things you should be able to handle. Please elaborate and tell us how you train for real life.


----------



## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> Sparring is nothing like real life? Wow! Do you expect that people won't punch and kick you? I wasn't taking a jab at rbsd just trying to see where you're coming from. How do you put the techniques you train to the test? What in your book gets close to real life? Obviously you can't perfectly simulate real life but sparring is close, it brings resistance, unpredictability and aggression to the picture all of which are very real things you should be able to handle. Please elaborate and tell us how you train for real life.




Ballen's real life training is his real life job. I imagine he can handle very well resistance, unpredictability and aggression to the point where we could all take a lesson from him.


----------



## ballen0351

Mephisto said:


> Sparring is nothing like real life? Wow! Do you expect that people won't punch and kick you?
> I wasn't taking a jab at rbsd just trying to see where you're coming from. How do you put the techniques you train to the test? What in your book gets close to real life? Obviously you can't perfectly simulate real life but sparring is close, it brings resistance, unpredictability and aggression to the picture all of which are very real things you should be able to handle. Please elaborate and tell us how you train for real life.


Sorry but punching and kicking in real life is not like they do in sparring.  2 people dont square up and trade blows in real life.  Ive been punched and kicked in real life its never been anything like sparing.  Sparring is two people that both train an art and agree to a set of rules and are working on techniques and most importantly they are NOT trying to hurt eachother.
I train for scenarios, I train repetition, I train for natural responses to attacks.  For example I have trained my reaction to a right hook over 10000 times.  I do it over and ove and over so if someone throws a hook at me, my response  will be reflex and Ill react without thinking.  Ive done that for several common attacks.
I train for the things Ive seen in the real world and things I believe will happen in the real world.  I dont trade blows with people I dont hit people to score points I dont spar to build my skills.  I do spar sometimes because its fun.  The real world isnt fun.
Im not saying my way is the best or even better then yours.  Im saying in my opinion my way works for what I do


----------



## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> Ballen's real life training is his real life job. I imagine he can handle very well resistance, unpredictability and aggression to the point where we could all take a lesson from him.


That's great, but everyone is not an LEO, and I've trained with many cops who would disagree with his view. Cops are people too, and they can be wrong.


----------



## ballen0351

Shoot Im wrong at least 10 times a day ask my wife she will tell you


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> Ballen's real life training is his real life job. I imagine he can handle very well resistance, unpredictability and aggression to the point where we could all take a lesson from him.


This is so true.   I think we all have to realize that our training cannot replace experience.   The idea of training is to prepare ourselves as best we can for the transition from an artificial training environment to the chaos of reality.   Sparring gets us pretty close in some ways.    Quality scenario based training gets close in other ways.   But neither can replace actual experience.

If ballen uses the skills day to day, he's got a level of understanding I'll likely never have, and I'd be foolish to dismiss his observations.   Same with drop bear or tez or jks or anyone else with Practical expertise.


----------



## Tez3

Mephisto said:


> That's great, but everyone is not an LEO, and I've trained with many cops who would disagree with his view. Cops are people too, and they can be wrong.




Yep, we can that's true but you were suggesting that his training had no basis in reality to the point of being sarcastic about his not expecting to be hit etc. Police officers may disagree with methods chosen for training but I don't know any that would disagree that what they do doesn't prepare them for resistance, unpredictability and aggression. All methods police officers use to train will train for this this because that's what the job is has loads of.


----------



## Steve

Mephisto said:


> That's great, but everyone is not an LEO, and I've trained with many cops who would disagree with his view. Cops are people too, and they can be wrong.


id say that it's far more likely that both are right.  In any what if scenario, we naturally fill in the blanks based upon our own experiences.


----------



## Mephisto

ballen0351 said:


> Sorry but punching and kicking in real life is not like they do in sparring.  2 people dont square up and trade blows in real life.  Ive been punched and kicked in real life its never been anything like sparing.  Sparring is two people that both train an art and agree to a set of rules and are working on techniques and most importantly they are NOT trying to hurt eachother.
> I train for scenarios, I train repetition, I train for natural responses to attacks.  For example I have trained my reaction to a right hook over 10000 times.  I do it over and ove and over so if someone throws a hook at me, my response  will be reflex and Ill react without thinking.  Ive done that for several common attacks.
> I train for the things Ive seen in the real world and things I believe will happen in the real world.  I dont trade blows with people I dont hit people to score points I dont spar to build my skills.  I do spar sometimes because its fun.  The real world isnt fun.
> Im not saying my way is the best or even better then yours.  Im saying in my opinion my way works for what I do



That's a reasonable reply. How do you train avoid the hooks and other attacks? Probably the same way I do or something similiar. Than you can put on some head gear and have someone aggressively try to hook punch you, they can mix in other common attacks too, and before you know it you're sparring. Don't you think all arts seek to  train a response to become reflex? I know I certainly do in boxing and in FMA. The goal isn't to trade blows, it's to ko the other guy. But when one shot doesn't ko the guy and he punches back you're trading blows. 

The needs of an Leo are different than most people and an Leo is better equipped to handle a confrontation that your average person and the confrontations you face are different than those an average person faces. It makes sense that an Leo would train differently.


----------



## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> Yep, we can that's true but you were suggesting that his training had no basis in reality to the point of being sarcastic about his not expecting to be hit etc. Police officers may disagree with methods chosen for training but I don't know any that would disagree that what they do doesn't prepare them for resistance, unpredictability and aggression. All methods police officers use to train will train for this this because that's what the job is has loads of.


I didn't say his training had no basis in reality. I questioned his assertion that sparring is nothing like reality. There are several clear commonalities between sparring and a real fight, so I believe he is wrong that sparring is nothing like real life but I assume that his trainibg has some basis in reality. I'd say that pretty much any guy who throws a punch is training something that has a basis in reality. I don't agree that all methods cops train will prepare them for resistance, unless the drills specifically have a resisting partner.


----------



## Tez3

It will depend I think on what you think a 'real' fight will look like, there are those who think it looks like the films where the attackers will go for the 'hero/ine one by one neatly waiting until one attacker is KO'd before attacking, others who think it's going to be a clean one on one.
Sparring is useful for many things already covered but I'm not sure they are useful for preparing someone for a 'fight' in reality. The sheer suddenness can take many by surprise, the way the attack happens may mean it's not much of a fight, real fights are messy and sparring is limited in what it can teach. Some of the ablest brawlers don't do martial arts and don't ever spar.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> It will depend I think on what you think a 'real' fight will look like, there are those who think it looks like the films where the attackers will go for the 'hero/ine one by one neatly waiting until one attacker is KO'd before attacking, others who think it's going to be a clean one on one.
> Sparring is useful for many things already covered but I'm not sure they are useful for preparing someone for a 'fight' in reality. The sheer suddenness can take many by surprise, the way the attack happens may mean it's not much of a fight, real fights are messy and sparring is limited in what it can teach. Some of the ablest brawlers don't do martial arts and don't ever spar.



Can't say I agree with that. Ever stop to wonder why every art that forms the core of MMA are MAs that are based around pretty heavy sparring? You can tell pretty quickly which styles have a pretty heavy sparring, and which ones don't.


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Can't say I agree with that. Ever stop to wonder why every art that forms the core of MMA are MAs that are based around pretty heavy sparring? You can tell pretty quickly which styles have a pretty heavy sparring, and which ones don't.



Then I don't think you read what I wrote which was nothing to do with styles of martial arts at all just that often the expectation of what a fight is like doesn't marry up to what it is actually like.
there really isn't much that prepares someone for a brawl that starts out, they may know technically what to do, taking and giving punches and kicks aren't the problem. It's the psychological impact of actually having people try to kill you that can cause the problem and no amount of heavy sparring is going to deal with that whatever some might think because they know in their head it's sparring, they may get hurt but not killed, raped or both. You can train soldiers up to deal with every eventuality in war, (and they do), but  soldiers first experience of being in a fire fight is something he isn't as ready for as they think they are.  Likewise  a proper brawling, confusing melee that is a brawl in a bar for example.


----------



## Jake104

ballen0351 said:


> Sorry but punching and kicking in real life is not like they do in sparring.  2 people dont square up and trade blows in real life.  Ive been punched and kicked in real life its never been anything like sparing.  Sparring is two people that both train an art and agree to a set of rules and are working on techniques and most importantly they are NOT trying to hurt eachother.
> I train for scenarios, I train repetition, I train for natural responses to attacks.  For example I have trained my reaction to a right hook over 10000 times.  I do it over and ove and over so if someone throws a hook at me, my response  will be reflex and Ill react without thinking.  Ive done that for several common attacks.
> I train for the things Ive seen in the real world and things I believe will happen in the real world.  I dont trade blows with people I dont hit people to score points I dont spar to build my skills.  I do spar sometimes because its fun.  The real world isnt fun.
> Im not saying my way is the best or even better then yours.  Im saying in my opinion my way works for what I do


I think the worse thing you can do in a real situation is to square off with someone. Once you square off it becomes a 50/50% chance. Any advantage you just had as a trained fighter is lost. That's why in the ring they square you off. To make it fair. In the street fair is to risky. I want the element of suprise on my side.. This is why I train in a neutral stance for self defense situations.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Can't say I agree with that. Ever stop to wonder why every art that forms the core of MMA are MAs that are based around pretty heavy sparring? You can tell pretty quickly which styles have a pretty heavy sparring, and which ones don't.


I would assume because sparring is close to what you encounter in MMA.  So it lends itself better to the rules.


----------



## ballen0351

Tez3 said:


> . You can train soldiers up to deal with every eventuality in war, (and they do), but  soldiers first experience of being in a fire fight is something he isn't as ready for as they think they are.  Likewise  a proper brawling, confusing melee that is a brawl in a bar for example.


Yep Nobody knows what they will do when crap hits the fan until the crap actually hits the fan


----------



## Tez3

Some fights though very few are exactly as you would see in a bar room brawl in a Western lol. We had one up not that long ago, no one got hurt as that wasn't really anyone's intention but it was quite funny. We had a large section of Royal Marine Commandos up here on exercise and before going home a couple of them wanted some cigarettes so they stopped the wagon outside a local pub and a couple of lads went in only to come flying out chased by a lot of soldiers, the Royal Marines jumped out of the wagon and everyone piled in. It was more or less over by the time the Royal Military police, ourselves and the civvy coppers arrived but as we dragged everyone off each other they all had cuts, bruises and broad grins. Honour was satisfied, the bootnecks went back to their base happy at bashing a few squaddies and the squaddies were happy at bashing a few bootnecks. If the authorities hadn't turned up it would have most likely ended with them all in the bar drinking. We do have to be careful in these fights though because when the RMPs turn up, its just as likely that all those fighting will turn on them cos no one likes military policemen bless their little cotton socks.


----------



## Jake104

Tez3 said:


> Then I don't think you read what I wrote which was nothing to do with styles of martial arts at all just that often the expectation of what a fight is like doesn't marry up to what it is actually like.
> there really isn't much that prepares someone for a brawl that starts out, they may know technically what to do, taking and giving punches and kicks aren't the problem. It's the psychological impact of actually having people try to kill you that can cause the problem and no amount of heavy sparring is going to deal with that whatever some might think because they know in their head it's sparring, they may get hurt but not killed, raped or both. You can train soldiers up to deal with every eventuality in war, (and they do), but  soldiers first experience of being in a fire fight is something he isn't as ready for as they think they are.  Likewise  a proper brawling, confusing melee that is a brawl in a bar for example.


So true! Most people will become overwhelmed by fear.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> Then I don't think you read what I wrote which was nothing to do with styles of martial arts at all just that often the expectation of what a fight is like doesn't marry up to what it is actually like.
> there really isn't much that prepares someone for a brawl that starts out, they may know technically what to do, taking and giving punches and kicks aren't the problem. It's the psychological impact of actually having people try to kill you that can cause the problem and no amount of heavy sparring is going to deal with that whatever some might think because they know in their head it's sparring, they may get hurt but not killed, raped or both. You can train soldiers up to deal with every eventuality in war, (and they do), but  soldiers first experience of being in a fire fight is something he isn't as ready for as they think they are.  Likewise  a proper brawling, confusing melee that is a brawl in a bar for example.



I never said that sparring is a replacement for experience. I'm saying that sparring is the closest thing to fighting experience you can get while training. Additionally, there's a marked difference in performance for styles that spar, and styles that don't spar. I've seen it and experienced it personally.

Again, which is why the core styles of MMA are all styles that have a pretty strong base of heavy sparring. MMA isn't a street fight, or a self defense situation, however its the closest thing we have to controlled and relatively safe "fighting".


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> I would assume because sparring is close to what you encounter in MMA.  So it lends itself better to the rules.



Let's say an Aikido school invited a group of boxers to spar with the Aikidokas and see how to apply their Aikido against someone throwing fast punches at them. Would that improve the abilities of the Aikidoka, or make them worse?


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> I never said that sparring is a replacement for experience. I'm saying that sparring is the closest thing to fighting experience you can get while training. Additionally, there's a marked difference in performance for styles that spar, and styles that don't spar. I've seen it and experienced it personally.
> 
> Again, which is why the core styles of MMA are all styles that have a pretty strong base of heavy sparring. MMA isn't a street fight, or a self defense situation, however its the closest thing we have to controlled and relatively safe "fighting".




Yes, dear, we know.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Let's say an Aikido school invited a group of boxers to spar with the Aikidokas and see how to apply their Aikido against someone throwing fast punches at them. Would that improve the abilities of the Aikidoka, or make them worse?


Who knows?  Who are the boxers?  Who are the Aikidoas?  Who says we dont throw "fast punches" at my Aikido dojo?


----------



## Jake104

In my personal experience the way you carry yourself really makes the difference. There have been numerous times when someone tries to start something with me. I usually only have to walk up give them that look. I don't even really say much. They sense my energy and realize I'm not a punk.

Just recently I was in Vegas and a group of us were walking through the casino. My brother accidentally bumped some guy. He was with a large group . he was like " hey say sorry" so my brother who isn't a confrontational guy apologized right away. He then was like" that's what I thought" so I turned around and he goes "easy there tough guy". So I walked right up to his group by myself and got in his face and just said " that's my brother you better watch it". I could see the fear in his eyes. He tried to play it off and not loose face. I was ready to go. I feel real comfortable close range so I was on guard.  Nothing happened. Cause loud mouths like that are usually are all bark no bite.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> IAdditionally, there's a marked difference in performance for styles that spar, and styles that don't spar. I've seen it and experienced it personally.
> .


Whats the marked difference you have seen?


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Who knows?  Who are the boxers?  Who are the Aikidoas?



Amateur boxers, typical Aikikai Aikido school.

Both groups sparring against each other with the goal of improving their skill sets. Would they?



> Who says we dont throw "fast punches" at my Aikido dojo?



I never said you didn't.


----------



## Tez3

Hanzou said:


> Both groups sparring against each other with the goal of improving their skill sets. Would they?



Wouldn't it be hard doing Aikido with boxing gloves on?


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Amateur boxers, typical Aikikai Aikido school.
> 
> Both groups sparring against each other with the goal of improving their skill sets. Would they?


How would I know?



> I never said you didn't.


So why would we need boxers come in to throw fast punches when we do it ourselves?


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Whats the marked difference you have seen?



In my school for example, there's a marked difference in ability between those who roll extensively, and those who leave before rolling begins. Those who don't roll have weaker games all around, and tend to get demolished by those who roll constantly.


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> Wouldn't it be hard doing Aikido with boxing gloves on?



They can use MMA gloves instead.


----------



## Jake104

ballen0351 said:


> Who knows?  Who are the boxers?  Who are the Aikidoas?  Who says we dont throw "fast punches" at my Aikido dojo?


Mike Tyson , Sugar Ray Leonard, and Mohammad Ali.  Steven segals dojo. That's Hanzou's fantasy fight team.


----------



## Hanzou

Jake104 said:


> Mike Tyson , Sugar Ray Leonard, and Mohammad Ali.  Steven segals dojo. That's Hanzou's fantasy fight team.



I would very much like to see the results of such a session.


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> In my school for example, there's a marked difference in ability between those who roll extensively, and those who leave before rolling begins. Those who don't roll have weaker games all around, and tend to get demolished by those who roll constantly.


So people that leave class early and dont practice as much are not as good as the people that stay longer and practice more........HMMMM


----------



## Jake104

Hanzou said:


> I would very much like to see the results of such a session.


I knew you would!


----------



## Mephisto

Jake104 said:


> I think the worse thing you can do in a real situation is to square off with someone. Once you square off it becomes a 50/50% chance. Any advantage you just had as a trained fighter is lost. That's why in the ring they square you off. To make it fair. In the street fair is to risky. I want the element of suprise on my side.. This is why I train in a neutral stance for self defense situations.


Technical difficulties, just write a nice snarky post and lost it.


----------



## Jake104

If like to see each boxer do randori multiple attacker style.


----------



## Jake104

I agree! Mephisto! That's why I wrote the quote.


----------



## Marnetmar

Will someone remind me why we're attempting to skip around the idea that sparring with someone from another style improves your training?


----------



## Jake104

Mephisto said:


> Technical difficulties, just write a nice snarky post and lost it.


Too slow! I snatched the pebble! Haha


----------



## Mephisto

Jake104 said:


> I agree! Mephisto! That's why I wrote the quote.


Thanks! I was commenting about how your squaring up = 50/50 chance of winning is bs. A bigger guy, experienced MMA guy, hardened violent offender, and even an experienced wc guy would have an advantage over a smaller inexperienced guy. 
But I agree that squaring up is stupid, I also train from a neutral stance. I also train to take an unassuming hands up stance if things are sketchy. Squaring off is what fighters do, it does give the other guy the advantage to anticipate that an attack is coming. I recommend keeping cool trying to diffuse a situation and if the guy continues or tries to chest bump, let him have it. An MMA guy or boxer is perfectly capable of not squaring up too.


----------



## Jake104

Marnetmar said:


> Will someone remind me we're attempting to skip around the idea that sparring with someone from another style improves your training?


I said earlier that sparring with other styles helped me more than with other WC practitioners. I think Hawkins, Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung, and Bruce lee all believed this as well. I think Most of IP Mans student did this


----------



## Mephisto

Marnetmar said:


> Will someone remind me we're attempting to skip around the idea that sparring with someone from another style improves your training?


Because it's obvious training with new people is beneficial to learning.


----------



## Jake104

Mephisto said:


> Thanks! I was commenting about how your squaring up = 50/50 chance of winning is bs. A bigger guy, experienced MMA guy, hardened violent offender, and even an experienced wc guy would have an advantage over a smaller inexperienced guy.
> But I agree that squaring up is stupid, I also train from a neutral stance. I also train to take an unassuming hands up stance if things are sketchy. Squaring off is what fighters do, it does give the other guy the advantage to anticipate that an attack is coming. I recommend keeping cool trying to diffuse a situation and if the guy continues or tries to chest bump, let him have it. An MMA guy or boxer is perfectly capable of not squaring up too.


I was just foolin around. I figured you were having some technical problems.


----------



## Jake104

Marnetmar said:


> Will someone remind me we're attempting to skip around the idea that sparring with someone from another style improves your training?


Hawkins Cheung is a black belt in Karate. I remember reading somewhere where he wrote that, he would use his Wing Chun against his Karate peers  to test it.


----------



## Tez3

You have to watch the boats and fishermen though when you spar with piers.


Sorry, I couldn't resist it, I can resist anything but temptation......................


----------



## Transk53

Think he meant peers lol


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Think he meant peers lol




 I know, as I said I couldn't resist it..... I am inexplicably taken with a Carry on mood


----------



## Transk53

Anyway to mess with a pier, just a 105 is needed


----------



## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> So people that leave class early and dont practice as much are not as good as the people that stay longer and practice more........HMMMM



A couple of additional hours a week in training time doesn't account for the difference in skill level. It's pretty dramatic, in some cases causing people to be stuck at their belt level longer than their peers. It got so bad that my instructor began pushing the non-rollers to start rolling after the class as much as possible, and offer more times for open mats.


----------



## Tez3

Sometimes people just can't afford the grading fee..........


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

I like his

- shoulder throw at 0.19 (he might still have jacket/gi throw attitude and haven't totally evolved into no-jacket/no-gi throw yet), and
- twist throw at 0.40.

I can tell that he is a WC guy with "open mind".


----------



## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> A couple of additional hours a week in training time doesn't account for the difference in skill level. It's pretty dramatic, in some cases causing people to be stuck at their belt level longer than their peers. It got so bad that my instructor began pushing the non-rollers to start rolling after the class as much as possible, and offer more times for open mats.


1st a couple hours a week for people that only train a couple hours a week to start with is HUGE
2nd people that are not committed to train the entire class are always going to lag behind more committed students
3rd some people dont care about rank or being as good as their peers
I think the difference in skill has more to do with attitude then with sparring


----------



## Hanzou

Tez3 said:


> Sometimes people just can't afford the grading fee..........



There are no grading fees at my school....



ballen0351 said:


> 1st a couple hours a week for people that only train a couple hours a week to start with is HUGE
> 2nd people that are not committed to train the entire class are always going to lag behind more committed students
> 3rd some people dont care about rank or being as good as their peers
> I think the difference in skill has more to do with attitude then with sparring



I would agree with the first, if the ones who trained for less time, but rolled after class weren't still better than the ones who came to more classes but didn't roll.  This is pure common sense. Regardless of overall training time, people who roll are going to be better at rolling than people who don't. Simple logic.

As for not caring about rank, at my school the instructor and his assistants decide who gets promoted. Its a combination of mat time, and how well you do at rolling against your peers, so no ones cares about rank. If you got the goods you'll be promoted, whether you want to or not.

If you're not rolling, you won't have the goods.


----------



## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> There are no grading fees at my school....



Well good for you. Must be at a unique school.


----------



## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like his
> 
> - shoulder throw at 0.19 (he might still have jacket/gi throw attitude and haven't totally evolved into no-jacket/no-gi throw yet), and
> - twist throw at 0.40.
> 
> I can tell that he is a WC guy with "open mind".




Look guys, this is trying to bring the thread back to WC, so there is still a chance this thread could go on track on what is after all the WC and CMA part of MT. Can we go along with this and actually discuss WC as itself not in comparison with or instead of any other art.


----------



## Hanzou

Transk53 said:


> Well good for you. Must be at a unique school.



Really? It's been the standard at the three Gjj academies I attended.


----------



## Transk53

Hanzou said:


> Really? It's been the standard at the three Gjj academies I attended.



Oh well whatever, this thread is about Wing Chun after all.


----------



## Hanzou

Transk53 said:


> Oh well whatever, this thread is about Wing Chun after all.


 
True. Feel free to push us back on topic.


----------



## tshadowchaser

so do WC people usually train throws  as in post 392?
when training in WC do you use ointments to help harden the hands or in helping blood flow after a hard wooden dummy workout?


----------



## Mephisto

Tez3 said:


> Look guys, this is trying to bring the thread back to WC, so there is still a chance this thread could go on track on what is after all the WC and CMA part of MT. Can we go along with this and actually discuss WC as itself not in comparison with or instead of any other art.


All you have to do is post something interesting to get us back on topic. Controversy is interesting, that's why you keep posting. If you're not interested quit posting if you and the pro wc guys all did this this thread would quickly fall to the wayside.

The beauty about forums is that you guys get to hear all my controversial and deeply insightful thoughts. On occasion when training I run into guys who quote the same Bruce lee quotes we've all heard, they complain about anything remotely competitive, and stand around and talk all class rather than work to lose that belly. I just roll my eyes and remain silent, I'm not confrontational and I won't start an argument or controversial discussion when it's time to train. This forum provides us the opportunity to discuss and work out differences of opinion, despite our differences of opinion I do consider alternate view points and on occasion change my stance on topics.


----------



## Mephisto

tshadowchaser said:


> so do WC people usually train throws  as in post 392?
> when training in WC do you use ointments to help harden the hands or in helping blood flow after a hard wooden dummy workout?


I'm pretty sure standard practice is to soak the hands in milk then have kittens lick the hands while watching "Enter the Dragon" and vocalizing the Bruce lee "wahhh" and "watahhhhh" sounds.


----------



## tshadowchaser

Mephisto  funny post but I am asking a serious question about training practices and the conditioning of the hands


----------



## Mephisto

tshadowchaser said:


> Mephisto  funny post but I am asking a serious question about training practices and the conditioning of the hands


Seriously, start a thread. That's a huge and interesting topic that encompasses many martial arts. All you're gonna get from this group is recommendations to soak your hands in cocoa butter and use a nice apricot scrub, lol.


----------



## Vajramusti

tshadowchaser said:


> Mephisto  funny post but I am asking a serious question about training practices and the conditioning of the hands


-----------------------------------------------------------

The thread has taken some strange turns. But-
I use dit da jow for iron palm bag work.
When the opportunity is there a well trained wing chun person can do many things including throw, qinna, breaking ,
hitting and  redirecting and controlling.


----------



## tshadowchaser

started  that thread in General area
Vajramusti  thanks for your post here


----------



## Danny T

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The thread has taken some strange turns. But-
> I use dit da jow for iron palm bag work.
> When the opportunity is there a well trained wing chun person can do many things including throw, qinna, breaking ,
> hitting and  redirecting and controlling.


Yep!
Though not the emphasis of our training, we do train all of that and more.
I find it a bit strange that others in the WC community don't.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

tshadowchaser said:


> so do WC people usually train throws  as in post 392?


This WC guy knows how to throw. From the way that he did his "belt cracking (1.53 - 2.10)" training in the same clip (I don't think Judo guys, or western wrestlers do "belt cracking" training), he had cross trained the Shuai-Chiao (Chinese wrestling) system. From the way that he did his "belt cracking", I can even tell that he trained the Beijing (or Tianjing) branch of the Shuai-Chiao system.


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## Jake104

Tez3 said:


> You have to watch the boats and fishermen though when you spar with piers.
> 
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't resist it, I can resist anything but temptation......................


Remember I'm a pictures kind of reader. Proper grammar shouldn't be expected from me.  I see earlier in this thread I put def instead of deaf. Like def jam or def leppard. Lol. I fixed it.  I try and go through and fix my mistakes. You'll learn to not expect much from me here! Haha!


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## Transk53

tshadowchaser said:


> so do WC people usually train throws  as in post 392?
> when training in WC do you use ointments to help harden the hands or in helping blood flow after a hard wooden dummy workout?



No. Just hit the sand bag, or wall bag. The skin learns eventually. Of course not just confined to Wing Chun as in my case. Merry Christmas


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## jks9199

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## drop bear

Jake104 said:


> In my personal experience the way you carry yourself really makes the difference. There have been numerous times when someone tries to start something with me. I usually only have to walk up give them that look. I don't even really say much. They sense my energy and realize I'm not a punk.
> 
> Just recently I was in Vegas and a group of us were walking through the casino. My brother accidentally bumped some guy. He was with a large group . he was like " hey say sorry" so my brother who isn't a confrontational guy apologized right away. He then was like" that's what I thought" so I turned around and he goes "easy there tough guy". So I walked right up to his group by myself and got in his face and just said " that's my brother you better watch it". I could see the fear in his eyes. He tried to play it off and not loose face. I was ready to go. I feel real comfortable close range so I was on guard.  Nothing happened. Cause loud mouths like that are usually are all bark no bite.



have you tested your ability to stop a sucker punch from that position? Which i call the gunfighter.


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## Jake104

drop bear said:


> have you tested your ability to stop a sucker punch from that position? Which i call the gunfighter.


Yes. First let me say I have been sucker punched more than once. So I have some experience. I use to not allow anyone in my space. That was one of my main rules and still is depending on the situation. Meaning you come into my space in an aggressive threatening manner. I hit you once you're in range. But recently I have  been training the clinch range no contact. If I'm close and I sense anything. I'm coming in with a punch. So I feel more comfortable that close now.

I basically train this by letting my training partner who isn't a WC'r attack me however he chooses and I react. Usually as he attacks I attack with my whole structure connected to a punch. This throws him off balance and really takes the power out of what ever he tries. I don't block. One example. He tried a low high attact to my throat. Once he moved. I moved. He barely touched my throat as he was flying backward. He's 230lbs I'm 190lbs. I connected with a open palm strike face push. He's my friend. So I wasn't trying to hurt him. I also believe reading a person is very important. There eyes, voice, if they look away or back for asecond. They' re probably getting ready to throw a SP. Be aware of the little things.

I probably mentioned this before, but my first Wing Chun Sifu gave me some good advice back when I first started. He said " you can't block everything. You may block the first or second hit. But A good boxer/striker will eventually overwhelm you with strikes. So punch punch punch!. You are probably going to get hit in a fight. If you don't like to get hit, don't fight". Now in a self defense situation you may not have a choice. But the point is, trying to block everything doesn't aways work.


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## geezer

Jake104 said:


> Doesn't mean ground fighting is not effective in a street fight. Just means kicking someone in the head while they are on the ground is a staple of western street fighting.



Jake, imagine the evolutionary response if this brutal trend continues over the long term:

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140209162228/starwars/images/5/50/Darth_Maul_profile.png

--Spikes to discourage head-kicking, black and red coloration to disguise and conceal any bruising so as not to show weakness or injury, and a nasty, get-even-at-all-costs temperament. BTW have you checked lately for any budding horns???


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## Transk53

Must have missed that one, on the ground? Must part of a different crowd


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