# elderly selfdefense course



## tshadowchaser (Oct 27, 2011)

I have just been informed that I will be instructing a self defense class for ladies next week. Now I have never seen this group but have been told the ages vary and that some may be using walkers. So my question is have any of you ever taught a class of elderly ladies or men that use walkers and what would you suggest for techniques?
I know I will begin with a short talk on situational awareness and letting them know it is sometimes better to relinquish their belonging rather than to risk injury. After that I plan on going over some simple wrist releases but from their I am at a loss as to what to do.
I realize that much may depend on exactly who shows up and what their physical abilities. 
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 27, 2011)

Walkers make weapons?  ;-)

I have not taught any self defense, but +1 on situational awareness.  Perhaps reminding them to get a good look at their assailant.  It is almost always best to give up belongings over being assaulted.  And although the first comment was sort of tongue in cheek, walkers and heavy purses do make good defensive and offensive weapons when there are no opportunitues to retreat safely.  Screaming loud helps too.


----------



## Nomad (Oct 27, 2011)

I would add in the use of cellphones as great defensive weapons (calling for help!)  This may be more overlooked from that generation.  Also maybe a quick lesson on types of violence, with a focus on the types of encounters that are most likely for them (to borrow from Rory Miller; they're unlikely to be victims of monkey dance behavior, but are certainly vulnerable to resource predators, for instance).  How does that affect their responses?  For obvious reasons, I see this being much more a mental class than a physical one.  

How do you recognize when a situation is going bad?  How do you make yourself less attractive as a victim to a potential predator.  Can/should you attempt to de-escalate?  If so, what strategies might work?

Do any of them legally carry weapons?  What kind, and have they trained deploying them?  If they have a gun, when was the last time they went to the range?

Physical techniques I would keep very simple (and train them carefully, obviously).  Would strongly recommend against any type of kicking, as losing their balance is likely a much bigger issue with much higher consequences at that age.  Elbows on the other hand could be quite effective.

Using the walker (or canes!) as defensive weapons could definitely be stressed; if so, you'll want to get hold of one and play with it beforehand to see what's possible.


----------



## Jenna (Oct 27, 2011)

tshadowchaser said:


> I have just been informed that I will be instructing a self defense class for ladies next week. Now I have never seen this group but have been told the ages vary and that some may be using walkers. So my question is have any of you ever taught a class of elderly ladies or men that use walkers and what would you suggest for techniques?
> I know I will begin with a short talk on situational awareness and letting them know it is sometimes better to relinquish their belonging rather than to risk injury. After that I plan on going over some simple wrist releases but from their I am at a loss as to what to do.
> I realize that much may depend on exactly who shows up and what their physical abilities.
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Wow this is a difficult one to work within the kinds of parameters you are implying.  

I think this must utilise what older people have more of.  Life experience!  As you say, explain awareness of environment from a defence point of view.  Do this for different situations: the dubious house caller, the suspicious character in the street etc. and ways to expediently END those situations before they start.  Likewise explain awareness of the methods of approach that an aggressor might employ and how to best AVOID them or DETER them before they have a chance to capitalise.

I remember one lady that I used to visit always used to "check with her big son" before she let anyone into the house.  She did not have a big son at all and but she was clever and she knew how to employ her experience and a little deceit!! 

I do not imagine techniques are going to be as important as relaying clearly your experience on how to best avert an unpleasant or potentially dangerous situation, or the most expedient manner to conclude it.  There is advice that is contrary to what most of us believe, that going to ground (or even feigning illness) is a suitable deceit that can end an initiated physical attack.

Would you be teaching them physical technique at all?  I think that depends on capability of the audience?

Also, I think you do not wish to frighten an older audience, yet still the threat is potentially real (even if statistically unlikely) and so it is better to be frightened and prepared than blissfully ignorant.

Sorry, I think this is not coherent and but I want to wish you well with it my friend.  I think this is a good and necessary class to take.  I hope you will post back on how it goes.


----------



## Nomad (Oct 27, 2011)

Jenna said:


> Also, I think you do not wish to frighten an older audience, yet still the threat is potentially real (even if statistically unlikely) and so it is better to be frightened and prepared than blissfully ignorant.



I think the above statement entirely depends on the type of assault/encounter we're talking about.  The elderly are unlikely to be targeted by someone seeking to prove how tough they are (unless the attacker is going for unpredictable/dangerous, in which case they could be since it deliberately crosses the lines of what's acceptable), but they're much likelier to be picked as an easy victim for someone looking for cash to fund their drug habit, for instance... specifically because the elderly are less likely to be capable of defending themselves physically and they often carry cash.  

Same thing could likely be said for a home invasion; the elderly and infirm make an attractive target.  Knowing this is important; knowing how to make themselves a harder target is, IMHO, vital.  For the latter circumstance, looking into home security systems, having a dog, or having (trained) weapons in the house may all be good options for different people.  Not letting strangers in the house would be another big one (for example, handymen cold calling around the neighborhood looking for more work... not always what they claim).


----------



## Buka (Oct 27, 2011)

I don't know about real world self defense, at least as we all think of it. But you might want to read this to get some ideas how to help really elderly people. All I've heard is good things from families of some of these people.

It's a two page article.

http://articles.boston.com/2011-04-24/lifestyle/29469526_1_martial-arts-cinder-blocks-hand


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 27, 2011)

Do some research, and look at what they're actually most at risk of.

Off the top of my head -- I don't see them victimized in stranger assaults and robberies nearly as often as they are victims of various forms of family abuse or home repair scams.  You might want to hit those issues...  And many are ashamed to report when they are victims of some sort of scam.


----------



## Jenna (Oct 27, 2011)

Buka said:


> I don't know about real world self defense, at least as we all think of it. But you might want to read this to get some ideas how to help really elderly people. All I've heard is good things from families of some of these people.
> 
> It's a two page article.
> 
> http://articles.boston.com/2011-04-24/lifestyle/29469526_1_martial-arts-cinder-blocks-hand


I like those stories! Jenna.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 28, 2011)

Teach 'em to hobble away as fast as possible, sprinkling senior citizens discount coupons and prescription pills behind them.  The coupons will cause assailants to slip and fall, and the pills will make them stop to pick them up and eat them.  Teach 'em to rapidly disconnect and hurl colostomy bags.  Perhaps false teeth could be used as some kind of weapon.


----------



## decepticon (Oct 28, 2011)

Another thing to consider mentioning is that they should practice their defenses every few months. As I have seen with my grandparents and parents, after a certain age, physical and mental capabilities change rather rapidly. They may not be able to do that which they could 6 months or a year ago, and therefore should not be depending upon that particular skill. If during practice they find that they are no longer able to execute a move, then they need to work to find something to replace it or find a new strategy to fill that gap. Perhaps the old trick of filling a money clip with $10 or $15 ones and tossing it in the direction you want the attacker to go to allow you a bit of time to escape.

If you have the opportunity to encourage tai chi classes, that could do a world of good for them. The National Arthritis Foundation teaches a version that does not focus on self defense but does do wonders for balance and range of motion, which in turn could be valuable self defense skills. http://www.arthritis.org/media/chapters/mic/New%20Site%20Sample%20Forms/Starter%20Kit%20-%20AFEA%20Site%20Sample.pdf


----------



## Jenna (Oct 28, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Teach 'em to hobble away as fast as possible, sprinkling senior citizens discount coupons and prescription pills behind them.  The coupons will cause assailants to slip and fall, and the pills will make them stop to pick them up and eat them.  Teach 'em to rapidly disconnect and hurl colostomy bags.  Perhaps false teeth could be used as some kind of weapon.


I am surprised at you saying these things.  That is callous humour, do you not think?  Is it not a positive thing that Sheldon is employing his martial art knowledge to help keep an older generation safe?  I do not know, maybe my SOH has dissolved today. I apologise.


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 28, 2011)

People Underestimate Older People.

Teach them... To Grab someones...
Grab the Right Wrist with the Left Hand.
Chamber Right Hand at Left Shoulder.
Right Hand Backfist Strike accross Temple.

Since the Power is generated mostly in the Collarbones (Well, Hips as well. But if they have Bad Hips, its unnecessary. How Old are we talkin?) it should work for a Start, at least.

Thats My Suggestion.


----------



## mook jong man (Oct 28, 2011)

I would probably just teach them palm strikes , edge of the hand and  forearm strikes , elbow strikes.
I also would teach them how to kick from the ground at an attackers shins or knee cap just in case they are pushed over and end up on the deck.


----------



## aedrasteia (Oct 28, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Teach 'em to hobble away as fast as possible, sprinkling senior citizens discount coupons and prescription pills behind them.  The coupons will cause assailants to slip and fall, and the pills will make them stop to pick them up and eat them.  Teach 'em to rapidly disconnect and hurl colostomy bags.  Perhaps false teeth could be used as some kind of weapon.



??? Bill WTH

A


----------



## Brian King (Oct 28, 2011)

If you can prior to teaching them - put yourself in their shoes. Bind your joints so that they are stiff or immobile. Get a pair of plastic safety glasses and cloud them up by scratching them with chemical or wire abrasives. Put small rocks in your shoes or tacks thru the soles. Than move around a bit to see what they face. Have someone do some simple attacks and you defend from their shoes but with your knowledge. 


As you said awareness is always a good thing to teach anyone.


*FEAR*


As people get older they end up self-isolating themselves. Fear of falling, fear of strangers, fear fear fear... All people have fear but as we age the fear can compound. So teaching them how to deal with fear if you have that knowledge is always beneficial and not just for self defense. Catch them holding their breaths when doing simple movements and remind them to breathe. Inhale thru the nose and exhale thru the mouth. Working any techniques you are teaching them very slowly and the minute the feel any fear to start breathing and calming themselves


*MOBILITY*


As people age the start to lose their mobility, medication can effect balance, falls can be fatal, and many other understandable reasons contribute to this. That loss becomes a vicious circle, the more mobility they lose the more they limit their own movement causing them to lose more mobility...The lack of mobility causes fear, the fear causes lack of mobility...another circle. Lack of activity causes joints to stiffen which then hinders mobility which causes lack of activity yet another circle
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110927073153.htm
Doing simple stretches, small figure eights with the ankles, knees, hips, ribs, shoulders and neck can prove beneficial. Flexing fingers and toes doesnt just feel good but is healthy. Doing permutation work (something we do a lot of with in Systema training) for example inhale and tighten all the muscles starting at the feet and ending up at the top of the head, exhales and releasing the tension from the head to the toes, (caution those on high blood pressure medications) You can have them tighten to 50% rather than 100% to lesson the effect on blood pressure but still gain the body awareness and muscle activity. As well as up and down the body you can go right to left or left to right.


*CONTACT*


People that do not have prior martial arts training will have a fear of contact, and for the elderly it is multiplied. People have germs and germs can kill, strangers want to take advantage etc. As humans, we need contact with other humans. Long ago I read a report on an orphanage in Korea. They had hundreds of orphaned babies. The babies were dying off at a very high alarming rate. They had them lined up in rooms where they could be cared for but the few caretakers did not have much time. By changing the procedures and having each baby spend some time being held, rocked and massaged they dramatically lowered the mortality rates. The touching saved their lives. As people age, this human to human contact can be severely limited. 


As people begin martial training the overuse of muscles, the straining of joints, the various bumps and bruises can leave a person sore or aggravate old injuries. This can cause the person to stop training.


A method to get people used to healthy contact, that can get people in touch with being an empathetic human, can reduce the pain of working out is handy. Of course I am taking about massage. For example if doing wrist grabs first have the partners take each others hands and slowly move them about while rubbing the joint area. Have them do the same after working the grabs. At the beginning of class have the students massage each other as part of the warm up and at the end of class as part of the cool down. There should not be pain, this is not a releasing type of massage but a get them moving while staying relaxed and getting them used to contact without fear type of work. The face and scalp should also be massaged.


*SUMMERY*


The elderly may have excess fear, limited mobility and achey joints, lack of and fear of contact. All of these can start to be addressed in the martial arts class. the training must be fun and must NOT cause further injury to the students. At advanced age a bad fall often leads to sever health complications. With medications breathing patterns, blood pressure, blood PH levels can all be out of sync and martial training can help address these health issues.


Good luck with your class and let us know how it went


Regards
Brian King


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 28, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Teach 'em to hobble away as fast as possible, sprinkling senior citizens discount coupons and prescription pills behind them. The coupons will cause assailants to slip and fall, and the pills will make them stop to pick them up and eat them. Teach 'em to rapidly disconnect and hurl colostomy bags. Perhaps false teeth could be used as some kind of weapon.



Now that was funny Bill, but you forgot to put an emoticon to show you were just trying to be light hearted as opposed to disrespectful.  Which you _never _are.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





tshadowchaser - considering the suggestions for kicking and striking, you might want to remind any to whom you suggest that, to be sure they aren't receiving treatment for osteoporosis, or don't otherwise have concerns about the hardness of their bones.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 28, 2011)

Jenna said:


> I am surprised at you saying these things.  That is callous humour, do you not think?  Is it not a positive thing that Sheldon is employing his martial art knowledge to help keep an older generation safe?  I do not know, maybe my SOH has dissolved today. I apologise.



Being on the far tip of 'middle age', I guess I thought it was funny.  As oftheherd1 mentioned, I forgot the smiley emoticon.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Oct 28, 2011)

being of the same age as some I'll be teaching I thought Bill's first post was funny.
Yes folks Im past retirement age


----------



## tshadowchaser (Oct 28, 2011)

I want to thank all who have made suggestions. There where more than a few ideas that I had not thought of. 
I'll post again here after the first session with these folks and let you all know how it went and what I encountered
sorry for any spelling mistakes, not useing spell check today


BTW:  I actualy have a walker, a wheel chair and many canes in the barn I train in . Some from my mother and others I have picked up over the years.  The only ones I use are the canes and I love to walk with them (no I do not need them yet)


----------



## Drac (Oct 28, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Teach 'em to hobble away as fast as possible, sprinkling senior citizens discount coupons and prescription pills behind them. The coupons will cause assailants to slip and fall, and the pills will make them stop to pick them up and eat them. Teach 'em to rapidly disconnect and hurl colostomy bags. Perhaps false teeth could be used as some kind of weapon.



Jeeze Bill. WTF..


----------



## aedrasteia (Oct 28, 2011)

tshadowchaser said:


> I have just been informed that I will be instructing a self defense class for ladies next week. Now I have never seen this group but have been told the ages vary and that some may be using walkers. So my question is have any of you ever taught a class of elderly ladies or men that use walkers and what would you suggest for techniques?  I know I will begin with a short talk on situational awareness and letting them know it is sometimes better to relinquish their belonging rather than to risk injury. After that I plan on going over some simple wrist releases but from their I am at a loss as to what to do. I realize that much may depend on exactly who shows up and what their physical abilities.
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.



Shadowchaser 

I'm glad you are willing to take this on - much good luck to you. I'll add what I've learned from these groups.

can you give some background?

* who gave you this on such short notice??  why so little time for you to prep?

* what is the 'group'? do they know each other?  can someone brief you on the group members?

* how long do you have with these folks? one time only?

* where will you be - your location?  Do you have the right situation for teaching people safely? floor pads? (what kind?)
      support bars?   Falling is a major danger here - hip fracture etc. also injuries to knees, wrists, shoulder and neck.

* will you have someone else with you??  would you be able to have a woman join you ?? - does not have to be MA. 
      very important to have additional person monitoring and helping with this age group.

**Overwhelmingly *violence to elderly/senior women comes from known people NOT strangers: 
      family, partners, and care-givers and in-home helpers, even neighbors. All sad but all well-known.
Your plan for dealing with this reality?

* Some women in this group, just as is the case with every group of women, have already been 
      survivors of threats and/or violence. What is your plan for dealing with survivors (esp undisclosed
      and unreported) in the session?

* They already know they are vulnerable and at risk.  Some may be very reluctant to admit/show their fear
      to a stranger - what is your plan for acknowledging/effectively using this response?  How will you structure the 
      session to (recognize) and prevent them from being overwhelmed both emotionally and physically?

I've taught a full curriculum (4-6 weeks) for senior women in multiple locations (Illinois, Wisconsin, Florida, GA etc). 
  as well as shorter sessions and discussions.  Its one of my favorite groups to work with and I'll be glad to offer all the    suggestions I can. 

Your answers to the items I've posted will help me share what I've learned and experienced. Many
thanks to you for being willing to help. with best wishes.


----------



## shesulsa (Oct 28, 2011)

Sheldon,

Gait training, preventative and restorative exercise has already been mentioned, so I won't be redundant.

The cane is rather unforgiving, really, when you know how to use it. Here is one video (and, to the right of the video, more) on the use of a cane as a weapon in self-defense.

[yt]7GhqlRLyfo0[/yt]

A walker has legs like a chair - and if you've ever lifted a chair, "pronged" an opponent and then turned them over, a walker can be used similarly, or even to just shove them back.  One thing, though, a cane or walker would likely be the first thing an attacker would take away from a potential elderly victim.

Just a couple of quick things there.


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 28, 2011)

Something to consider about using the cane or walker as a defensive tool...  If it's something the person needs for balance, how much will they really be able to do with it?  Similarly, if there are mobility concerns, or grip concerns, how much will they really be able to swing a cane or lift their walker?  (In fact, some of those walkers are rather heavier than you might think, in order to provide stability against a person's body weight...)


----------



## Buka (Oct 28, 2011)

As an aside - from a business point of view, older people are becoming the largest demographic group. AND the largest demographic group with the largest disposable income. They're also looking for things that help them, inspire them and excite them.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Nov 1, 2011)

The Group is connected with the Salvation Army and I knew the course would be taught to a group of women but had not been informed of their ages till the other day. That changed my mind set on what to teach.  
Much will depend on just how physicaly fit they are.

As a side note over half of this town is still without power due to the snow storm on Sat.  I am hopeing that I am still able to instruct the course tonight.  I'll let every one know what happens tomorrow when I am able to get back online.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Nov 1, 2011)

Ought to be able to rig up a walker with a stun-gun device concealed in it that only goes off if it is held by someone other then the owner.  So when bad guy takes the walker, they get dropped in their tracks.  That would be a riot.


----------



## shesulsa (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm really anxious to hear how this went, Sheldon. Please post an update when you can - thanks!


----------



## tshadowchaser (Nov 2, 2011)

The event was postponed until tonight.
I do now now there will be one woman in her mid 80's and one about 78 years old. I have no idea of the ages of the others. 
 I'm looking forward to this and have planned a couple of things including keeping one of the students out of sight until I am half way into my introduction at which time he is going to walk into the room, lookaround then grab my bag off the floor and run out.  I'll then ask everyone to discribe him.  This is part of my awarness training.  
 Like I have stated before much will depend on what the group is able to due.  I'll post tomorrow.

FYI:  3/4 of the town now has power once again.  YEA


----------



## aedrasteia (Nov 2, 2011)

tshadowchaser said:


> The event was postponed until tonight.
> I do now now there will be one woman in her mid 80's and one about 78 years old. I have no idea of the ages of the others.
> I'm looking forward to this and have planned a couple of things including *keeping one of the students out of sight until I am half way into my introduction at which time he is going to walk into the room, lookaround then grab my bag off the floor and run out.  I'll then ask everyone to discribe him.  This is part of my awarness training. *
> Like I have stated before much will depend on what the group is able to due.  I'll post tomorrow.
> ...



Chaser

glad you have power!

please think carefully about your activity you described. For many elderly the limitations on them regarding 'awareness' are physical - eyesight is poor.  If they can't see - what does the exercise (constructed this way) prove??  I think I can see where you want to go with this (building awareness) and I strongly support you. Setting people up in a way that unintentionally spotlights their limitations is just not effective. 

And it is NOT unreasonable to be concerned that some of the women may be seriously upset by this and have a really hard time getting back on track. Others may get it - what do you plan to do if 2-3 are really upset by this??

As I posted previously, they already know they are at risk (even if they are reluctant to admit it). 

And these exercises implicitly put the focus on stranger-danger. Thats not where most threats to senior women originate. Its hard for everybody to face that reality. I guess thats why 99% of MA based SD ignores reality.
How will you address this?

Here's one exercise I use: its verbal and requires the instructor to use a white board or large postable sheets and write BIG so everyone can read it:

* brainstorm and list - the 5-6 public places the women visit (you can predict these most likely: grocery shopping, doctors, church, senior 
     center) Ask them to Describe these places - and where they park and where they walk and go in, as thoroughly as they can.  Then you ask them:  What do you actively do right now to keep your self safe in these places (you post these actions *BIG* and with red  magic marker and ask each person to add something new, if they can).  When done, ask them what NEW things they see that they can add to what they already do - and ask them to write down a reminder to themselves. 

You will accomplish several things with this:
* everyone gets to contribute * everyone can see that other women do useful things * they can see that other women sometimes are scared also *  they can learn new actions and strategies * it isn't dumb or paranoid to take actions * You (the instructor) are actively  recognizing them as valuable and able to act positively * you as the instructor recognize that they already try to do smart things to help themselves.

Every exercise-activity in a class needs to incorporate those assumptions. No woman ever comes into a class as a 
'blank slate' though most instructors treat us that way.

How will they get to the class safely getting to the building, entering and exiting)??  is the class in the evening? older people tire early.

best of luck to you - please let us all know what happens.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Nov 3, 2011)

The woman's group was at about ¼ of the size I had been told would be there due to the weather and illness in the group. Perhaps that was a good thing because questions where kept to a minimum and the discussion on any technique was also less involved.
  As all good plans go the one I had in mind as part of situational awareness started off on the wrong foot because as we entered the building all of the group was standing in the hall way and got a look at us all. So instead of having one of the students wait in the hall then enter and remove a bag I was going to place in plain sight and then exist we all just went into the meeting room as a group. I started by introducing myself and each of the others individually. After which a short speech on situational awareness was given with example of what to look for and when it was a good time to cross a street or go back into a store and maybe ask for security to assist them to their automobile. 
  About half way into the discussion ( about 5 minutes) one of my students, who was standing beside me took off his coat and placed it on a chair in plain sight of all. I turned to him and asked him to exist the room. Once he was out of the room I asked the group to describe him. All I'll say is that they where off by a long shot. They did not describe his shirt, pants, etc. correctly. They also said he was wearing ear rings (he was not) and they missed the fact he had facial hair ( a small goatee and mustache). When asked if this was their apartment was there anything to help identify him and no one mentioned his jacket on the chair. I'm sure we will work on recondition at a later date.  All agreed that they needed to ppay a little more attention to those around them and to the places they where in.   The next time around I'll have them start discribing the hallway they walked through, and things in the rooms they just passed through.  Becoming awear of surronding once again will take a little relearning but I think this group is up to the task and will enjoy the excersise .
  I guess I should state that the group had one person in their 40's and the rest where from 70 to 85. Three had walkers and could not maneuver without them and a few needed canes without which they could not walk or stand.
  Ninety percent of what we did after that was centered around seated defense. Wrist releases, arm grabs, shirt grabs where reviewed and explained. The simplest way of doing these things and the least physically demanding where what this group needed and that&#8217;s what we stayed with. Being the first time with the group I did not go into the nasty things that could be done afterward, however I did suggest that seeing as they would have been grabbed or attacked that perhaps more should be done to the perpetrator to convince him/her that anything more would not be advisable.
  A few wrist locks and finger locks where shown but we did not spend much time on these as most of the group would not be able to accomplish them with out many hours of practice.
We where asked what if a person came up from behind and grabbed us so we did a few moves seated and standing again keeping every thing as simple as possible knowing that these woman would not be able to do fast spinning moves.
  From what was said by the leader of the group as we departed I think they enjoyed the demonstration . I mentioned that we would like to do this on a regular basis and the leader stated she thought &#8220;this would grow into something big&#8221;. 
  That's about it. I know I have much to prepare for before we do another one and at least now I have an idea of what this group consists of. 
Can't wait till we get to do a demo for the group of adult men and the kids group.


----------



## billc (Nov 3, 2011)

As a long time martial artist with some teaching experience, I have to say I am surprised that I don't think I saw a single mention of firearms training for the elderly or the physically handicapped.  I know your course may not cover firearms training and seems to be more in line with a traditional martial arts class, but did you mention to them that they should take the training and purchase at least a firearm for the home, and where they can, get an open or concealed carry permit.  Firearms are the best martial art weapon an older person could have.  Of course, if they are so old that they are running into issues of Alheimers, firearms would not be advised, but if that was the case they probably wouldn't be in your class in the first place.  Firearms should really be the first step in a martial arts for self-defense curriculum.  The other skills take too long to master in the short term, and lose their effectiveness as an armed attacker or multiple attackers are thrown into the equation.  Throw in age, physical injuries (an already broken arm or leg from just living a life) or other physical handicaps from being in a wheel chair or just of small stature, and the empty hand or even FMA pale in comparison to the advantages of a firearm in the hands of someone trained to use it.  Yes, awareness of your situation comes first and general self-defense planning, not going into dark parking lots...and the rest are a big part of it.  When it comes to the physical end of self-defense, the concealed or open carry firearm should be first in peoples minds.  If you are serious about surviving an encounter with a violent sociopath, that is.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Nov 3, 2011)

For a different group firearms might have been brought into the discussion, but for this group I would have been afraid they would not have been able to handle a firearm with any safety


----------



## Jenna (Nov 3, 2011)

tshadowchaser said:


> The woman's group was at about ¼ of the size I had been told would be there due to the weather and illness in the group. Perhaps that was a good thing because questions where kept to a minimum and the discussion on any technique was also less involved.
> As all good plans go the one I had in mind as part of situational awareness started off on the wrong foot because as we entered the building all of the group was standing in the hall way and got a look at us all. So instead of having one of the students wait in the hall then enter and remove a bag I was going to place in plain sight and then exist we all just went into the meeting room as a group. I started by introducing myself and each of the others individually. After which a short speech on situational awareness was given with example of what to look for and when it was a good time to cross a street or go back into a store and maybe ask for security to assist them to their automobile.
> About half way into the discussion ( about 5 minutes) one of my students, who was standing beside me took off his coat and placed it on a chair in plain sight of all. I turned to him and asked him to exist the room. Once he was out of the room I asked the group to describe him. All I'll say is that they where off by a long shot. They did not describe his shirt, pants, etc. correctly. They also said he was wearing ear rings (he was not) and they missed the fact he had facial hair ( a small goatee and mustache). When asked if this was their apartment was there anything to help identify him and no one mentioned his jacket on the chair. I'm sure we will work on recondition at a later date.  All agreed that they needed to ppay a little more attention to those around them and to the places they where in.   The next time around I'll have them start discribing the hallway they walked through, and things in the rooms they just passed through.  Becoming awear of surronding once again will take a little relearning but I think this group is up to the task and will enjoy the excersise .
> I guess I should state that the group had one person in their 40's and the rest where from 70 to 85. Three had walkers and could not maneuver without them and a few needed canes without which they could not walk or stand.
> ...


Sounds as if you had a good reception S.  I am pleased that the group leader is optimistic too and that you yourself got something from it.  Thank you for posting something positive my friend.  I wish you well and look forward to hearing how this unfolds  Jenna.


----------



## decepticon (Nov 3, 2011)

billcihak said:


> As a long time martial artist with some teaching experience, I have to say I am surprised that I don't think I saw a single mention of firearms training for the elderly or the physically handicapped.



Based on the people I know of the 75 - 85yo age range, I'm not sure that the use of firearms would be well advised. Speaking of people I know personally (parents, in-laws, aunts/uncles), I worry often that one of them will get into trouble trying to use their firearms. 

For example, my aunt tells the young toughs around town that she has a pistol and won't hesitate to use it if anyone trespasses on her property. Then she asks me to load it for her because her arthritic fingers can't quite manage the clip (I decline), tells me that she can't really see the ample target painted on the side of a large tree stump when I encourage target practice when her son is home to help her, and most recently lamented to me that she would like my husband to find her a biger gun with a more sensitive trigger because the aforementioned arthritis makes it hard for her to shoot her little Ruger.

Their eyesight is failing. Their hearing is off. They often mistake one large shape in the dark for another. Judgement seems to be slipping a bit also. My brother almost had a heart attack recently when my mother started casually waving her loaded pistol around toward his daughter as she was gesturing toward something else.

I guess if an older person had previous experience with firearms and still had good command of their faculties, then it would be fine. However I do feel that periodic reevaluation of abilities should be required. Also, IMO, advanced age is not a good time to introduce the use of firearms.

(I am speaking in generalities based on a small sample group. I'm sure some of you know older people who are sharp as tacks and who could do well with guns.)


----------



## billc (Nov 3, 2011)

I would say though, if they can't handle a firearm, I don't think they will have the ability to handle themselves without one either.  For the early seniors, I still have to say firearms are the way to go, no other training is as effective for seniors, the physically small, or the physically impaired.


----------



## Buka (Nov 3, 2011)

What you are doing is helping them. There is nothing in the world more important. I salute and thank you. As I'm sure they do.


----------



## aedrasteia (Nov 3, 2011)

billcihak said:


> I would say though, if they can't handle a firearm, I don't think they will have the ability to handle themselves without one either.  For the early seniors, I still have to say firearms are the way to go, no other training is as effective for seniors, the physically small, or the physically impaired.



Poorly thought out advice Bill. Not wrong - poorly thought through, at least based on your comment.
And an equally poorly thought through assumption about what people are capable of - the primary resource people 
have is their ability to think through what they do every day.  And who is around them.

Unfortunately you're focusing on techniques and techniques should come in *only after working through these*:

* who assaults/harms seniors  (overwhelmingly, family - known persons, a few/some strangers)

* when and where (dark parking lots are not it)

* what actually happens 

Have you actually worked directly with seniors, both those who have expereinced crimes (often NOT reported to LE) 
and those worried?
Seniors with  physical and other limitations and others you mention can use what they have to make themselves safer, by thinking  and planning better. Safety planning with seniors works great - and they feel very satisfied to be taking responsibility for themselves. Only Then we work in techniques. Thinking comes first.

Many are just fine with firearms - and me too. but they can also be aware that the problems Jenna spotlights are real.
I've asked about firearms in my sessions and have had very disturbing answers, mainly from
older women whose male family members have given them a firearm with little/no information, training,
practice.  

How do I know? Because a 62 year old woman had the loaded pistol in her purse and excitedly pulled it
out to show me and the group - no idea about the safety, trigger etc - her son just told her to carry it, 
and 'point and pull' if she needed to. And she was not the last woman to do this. She had no idea how to load/unload etc.

Because of those experiences, Now I ask regularly and it happens pretty often - many women are just scared of it 
and hide it somewhere. Others figure 'he must know best, he's the man' so they carry it around with them and sometimes 
stick it in a drawer at home. It provided some very tense 'teachable moments'.

Premature Focus on firearms and techniques means less time to figure out *how to build safety into routine daily activities - *and help them figure out how to deal with people close to them that they have a 'gut feeling' about - or worse, someone
known who has already threatened, intimidated or even hurt them.

that's where I put my time.


----------



## billc (Nov 4, 2011)

I believe I covered all of your concerns in my post, specifically:


> Yes, awareness of your situation comes first and general self-defense  planning, not going into dark parking lots...and the rest are a big part  of it.



Also:



> Of course, if they are so old that they are running into issues of Alheimers, firearms would not be advised,




I was specifically addressing the advice about palm strikes, and kicking and the other physical aspects of self-defense, and how a firearm answers those questions for an elderly or physically handicapped person.  At no point did I say just hand a senior a gun and let them start blasting away.    _I believe your concerns about firearms and the elderly not being able to handle them were mentioned in this part of my post:
_


> I know your course may not cover firearms training and seems to be more  in line with a traditional martial arts class, but did you mention to  them that they should take the training and purchase at least a firearm  for the home, and where they can, get an open or concealed carry permit.



I believe you are responding to a post I didn't write, but thanks for the help.


----------



## Flea (Nov 5, 2011)

What about kino mutai?  I think it was designed specifically for the elderly and folks with disabilities.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Nov 5, 2011)

A good idea but I do not usualy suggest people bite.  With all the blood passed desease theses days biteing is a last resort for me.  Also Kino Mutai uses a strong grip strength to secure the individual while biteing.
That being said it is always an idea that can be used


----------

