# Royce Gracie vs. Bruce Lee



## Cobra (Jun 17, 2004)

Who would win if the one of the best proven fighter Royce Gracie went against the fast kicking Bruce Lee. Kinda a battle between grappling and striking. Royce Gracie has won virtually every match in his fighting career, and Bruce Lee is one tough martial artist. 

Bruce Lee is one of the fastest fighter ever with a wide array of deadly kicks. He has one of the most devastating kicks at his time. 

Royce Gracie one just about every match in his life as a true fighter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Royce Gracie was undefeated in his whole fighting career.

Royce Gracie might be man that has beaten them all, but has he really been in the ring with Bruce Lee?

Hard call, but I would have to go with Royce Gracie. Just because I think he has been in more matches than Bruce Lee and knows how to beat fighters with Lee's style.


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## Hanzo04 (Jun 17, 2004)

you are absolutely wrong. royce has never even seen a fighter like bruce and never will. just hearing bruce's name being called would scare the living crap out of him. and besides Bruce may not have been the best fighter of all time, since there is know such thing, but  he is the smartest and he would have figured out a way to beat him. he is simply to fast!


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## markulous (Jun 17, 2004)

Royce Gracie would get knocked out in less than a minute.  There is NO WAY he is in any way shape or form better than Bruce.  In a ring with lots of rules might give Royce some more time but Bruce would still beat the living crap out of him.

Props to Royce for his great record in UFC but Bruce is the man.  He developed his own system, adapted and fused martial arts together to fit himself, and just sent martial arts flying in a completely new direction.  His accomplishments as a human being and a martial artist 1000% overshadow those of Royce.

And trust me he has never run in to anyone(or knows how to deal with) that has Bruce Lee's style.


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## satans.barber (Jun 17, 2004)

I take it you're talking Bruce Lee using JKD against Royce Gracie using BJJ?

Well, from the copious amounts of UFC footage I've watched, Gracie fighters use the tactic of diving at their opponent's legs, then grappling to submission.

The first problem Royce would have is Bruce wouldn't be standing still, he'd be skipping around and staying on the move (unlike a lot of UFC fighters) so I think Royce would find the tackle hard. When Royce did go in for his leg tackle, in all fairness, Bruce Lee was so fast and powerful I think he's just kick Royce in the face as he came in and that would probably end it.

Kudos to Gracie for not only his balls but his record as well, but against Bruce Lee? My £10 would be on Lee every time.

Ian.

p.s. according to Royce's stats at Sherdog he lost twice...

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=19


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## dearnis.com (Jun 17, 2004)

If you were really serious about the question I'd say go to a Dan Inosanto seminar and ask him.  He trained with Bruce for years, and is a BJJ black belt.

Now on to the real question.... can Batman take Superman???


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## pete (Jun 17, 2004)

Batman, for all his good intentions, was just a rich guy with cool toys.  Superman, able to change the course of mighty rivers and bend steel in his bare hands, would win easily... Batman was barely able to take on the Joker, the Penguin, Catwoman without help from Alfred, Aunt Harriet, and yes, the Boy Wonder... even King Tut gave him a hard time, and he was out of his mind, obese, and had no skills whatsoever.

The real question is 1927 Yankees vs 2000 Yankees or '55 Dodgers vs '86 Mets... 

these are questions that have puzzled great minds for decades...

pete


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## Aikikitty (Jun 17, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> Batman, for all his good intentions, was just a rich guy with cool toys.  Superman, able to change the course of mighty rivers and bend steel in his bare hands, would win easily... Batman was barely able to take on the Joker, the Penguin, Catwoman without help from Alfred, Aunt Harriet, and yes, the Boy Wonder... even King Tut gave him a hard time, and he was out of his mind, obese, and had no skills whatsoever.
> pete



Congrats Pete on your 200 posts!!!    artyon: 

You're talking of the wimpy Batman in the old '60's show.  That Batman would never be able to beat Superman!   However, the Batman I know from the Animated Series and the comic books (there really is no such character as Aunt Harriet) could "beat" him or at least have a very good chance!  His mind and use of strategy is his strongest point and he does have Kryptonite stored in the Batcave to use if Superman ever got out of control.  There was storyline going on in the JLA comic series (last year maybe) for awhile about how Batman was investigating all the other members in the Justice League and he found ways to take all of them out if he had to.  Everyone else in the Justice League were not very happy with him when they found that out.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I suppose it doesn't really matter as they don't really exist but I'm just partial to Batman.    He's my favorite hero! 

Robyn  :asian:


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## marshallbd (Jun 17, 2004)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> Now on to the real question.... can Batman take Superman???


NOPE!!! :asian:


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## marshallbd (Jun 17, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> The real question is 1927 Yankees vs 2000 Yankees or '55 Dodgers vs '86 Mets...
> 
> these are questions that have puzzled great minds for decades...
> 
> pete


'55 Dodgers for sure....no question about it!! :asian:


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 17, 2004)

I dont know if anyone else has seen the gracies in pride fighting but they get WORN OUT against strikers who know what they're doing. The Sakuraba's practically played with the gracies in the ring.

So hands down, I'm going to say Bruce Lee would knock Royce Gracie out... easy.


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## white eagle (Jun 17, 2004)

Why Bruce Lee would wipe him out

D.....


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 17, 2004)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> If you were really serious about the question I'd say go to a Dan Inosanto seminar and ask him.  He trained with Bruce for years, and is a BJJ black belt.
> 
> Now on to the real question.... can Batman take Superman???



Batman will win because he has the Kryptonite gloves he carries on his utility belt


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 17, 2004)

Does Superman have a utility belt or a super-mobile? Didnt think so


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## loki09789 (Jun 17, 2004)

Cobra said:
			
		

> Who would win if the one of the best proven fighter Royce Gracie went against the fast kicking Bruce Lee. Kinda a battle between grappling and striking. Royce Gracie has won virtually every match in his fighting career, and Bruce Lee is one tough martial artist.
> 
> Bruce Lee is one of the fastest fighter ever with a wide array of deadly kicks. He has one of the most devastating kicks at his time.
> 
> ...


In the spirit of the Michael Douglas tv show (I think) where Bruce Lee nailed a Tai Chi master after a wonderful demonstration of Chi manipulation:

Corpes don't hit back..... Bruce is dead.  Royce is alive....pretty clear to me.

I don't know about the 'best proven fighter thing either' the Gracies have a love affair with 'fight parameters' that sort of stack the deck in their favor.  Now that the UFC has turned into a body building look alike wt. class competition I don't see too many of the Gracies in the mix....


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 17, 2004)

> I don't know about the 'best proven fighter thing either' the Gracies have a love affair with 'fight parameters' that sort of stack the deck in their favor. Now that the UFC has turned into a body building look alike wt. class competition I don't see too many of the Gracies in the mix....



Like I said, the Sakuraba's toyed with the gracies (including Royce) in pride fighting, even with their own rules stacked in their favor. By play I mean the Sakuraba's would spank them, tap on their head and other things. The Gracie's cant handle a skilled striker.


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## pete (Jun 17, 2004)

more powerful than a locomotive.  able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. look up in the sky.

its a bird

its a plane.


its a frog          a frog?

not plane, nor bird, not even frog... just little ole me...


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## hedgehogey (Jun 17, 2004)

All right, that's it. Now you've all really done it. God do I hate fanboys. 

1: Saying "he couldn't use his leg tackle cause bruce does the skippy stuff" is...god I don't know how to fully get across what a stupid statement that is...Look, out of the hundreds of such skippy people the gracies fought, they've always succesfully used their "leg tackle" (it's called a takedown, numbnuts) against anyone who tried to dance around with them, including pro boxers. In fact, if you or any other lee nutrider think you can do better, the gracie challenge is open, with a 100,000$ prize if you can beat one gracie blackbelt.

2: Sakuraba is not a striker. He is a WRESTLER. A very good one at that. Sakuraba (singular) has never won a match by KO, all by submission

3: The gracies have been doing vale tudo since the 1930s. They have the benefit of almost a century of experience, the most modern equipment and supplements, the best coaches, etc. 

4: Jun Fan fighter getting "leg tackled" in his UFC debut: Guy called "el tiburon" in ufc 3

5: Bruce is dead. Royce is alive. This whole debate is stupid. 

I very much respect lee's ideas and his prototypical MMA stance, but he wasn't a proffesional fighter.


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 17, 2004)

Ok, so the SakurabaS might not be strikers, but they still ripped the Gracie's apart.


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## gusano (Jun 17, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> I don't know about the 'best proven fighter thing either' the Gracies have a love affair with 'fight parameters' that sort of stack the deck in their favor. ...


The Gracie challenge has existed in Brasil for 75 years to this day. The challenge is for a fight without rules. If these are the parameters you refer to then the Gracies have stacked the deck to win a no rules fight and thereby proven the effectiveness of GJJ.

If Bruce and Royce fought 100 times it could come out different ways with different victors each time. If Superman fought Batman he would destroy him!
If my sister had a penis it would be bigger than mine...I mean, she'd be my brother. *IF *in one hand and *defecate* in the other and see which one fills up first!

Hedgehogey has restored my faith in mankind!


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## loki09789 (Jun 17, 2004)

gusano said:
			
		

> The Gracie challenge has existed in Brasil for 75 years to this day. The challenge is for a fight without rules. If these are the parameters you refer to then the Gracies have stacked the deck to win a no rules fight and thereby proven the effectiveness of GJJ.
> 
> If Bruce and Royce fought 100 times it could come out different ways with different victors each time. If Superman fought Batman he would destroy him!
> If my sister had a penis it would be bigger than mine...I mean, she'd be my brother. *IF *in one hand and *defecate* in the other and see which one fills up first!
> ...


I agree with a different outcome every time. 

If there are no rules, similiar to UFC type fights when it first started, why havent' any players lost an eye ball, or torn an ear off, popped testicles.....brought a gun, knife, staff.....remember there are 'no rules.'


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## hedgehogey (Jun 17, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> I agree with a different outcome every time.
> 
> If there are no rules, similiar to UFC type fights when it first started, why havent' any players lost an eye ball, or torn an ear off, popped testicles.....


Maybe those things don't work?



> brought a gun, knife, staff.....remember there are 'no rules.'


Talk to the dog brothers.


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## MichiganTKD (Jun 18, 2004)

I'm sorry Ladies and Gentlemen, Bruce Lee isn't able to enter the ring at this time, he's slightly DEAD!


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## hedgehogey (Jun 18, 2004)

WLMantisKid said:
			
		

> Ok, so the SakurabaS might not be strikers, but they still ripped the Gracie's apart.


Sakuraba. Singular. ONE MAN. Not a whole bunch of cloned monkeymen, flipping over each other's guards and diving at each other's shins.


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## Marginal (Jun 18, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> I agree with a different outcome every time.
> 
> If there are no rules, similiar to UFC type fights when it first started, why havent' any players lost an eye ball, or torn an ear off, popped testicles.....brought a gun, knife, staff.....remember there are 'no rules.'



Dunno about the weapons, but there have been groin shots in that kind of competition. Goodridge won one of the figts he was in due to the guy giving up once he realized Gary had shifted the guy's cup out of the way and was lining up a knee strike.


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## loki09789 (Jun 18, 2004)

Marginal said:
			
		

> Dunno about the weapons, but there have been groin shots in that kind of competition. Goodridge won one of the figts he was in due to the guy giving up once he realized Gary had shifted the guy's cup out of the way and was lining up a knee strike.


Two for one here.  I am reasonably sure that a gauged eye ball would take some of the fight out of someone.  I notice a lack of popped/ruptured eardrums as well.  Testical pops (NOT meaning 'groin shot' but literally a testicle that has been squeezed to bursting..... OUCH! Another one that reasonably speaking would 'work').

If it was truly No rules or No holds barred type of fighting then why haven't there been any crushed throats, more reported broken fingers, elbows.....

 I think the worst pounding I saw was a Ninjutsu artist who was SERIOUSLY beat about the face in UFC 2 or 3 if I remember correctly.

Based on the evidence/reported injury/death rate in these no rules fights, I suspect that there are at least some 'gentlemen's agreements' being established.  I doubt that even in Brazil that 'death matches' would be legal or insureable events (since some of these fights have drawn paying crowds) much like the UFC fights are paid, insured sporting events.  SOMEWHERE in the contractual agreements with promoters, state sports event commisioners... somewhere there are guidelines being mandated.


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## Shogun (Jun 18, 2004)

Take a look at UFC 3. A HUGE striker, with only minimal fighter experience (Kimo) Hit Royce so hard and beat him so badly, he couldnt continue to the next match. Royce did beat him, but he couldnt go on after that. So a good, experienced fighter like Lee would kill him. Lee might not be big, but he had power and speed.


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## pete (Jun 18, 2004)

this can now be settled once and for all... i took out my Rockem Sockem Robots (circa 1969) and labeled the blue guy "Brucie" and the red guy "Gracie"... and.... say goodnight Gracie... blue guy won.

Now to dust off Battling Tops.


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## mj-hi-yah (Jun 18, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> this can now be settled once and for all... i took out my Rockem Sockem Robots (circa 1969) and labeled the blue guy "Brucie" and the red guy "Gracie"... and.... say goodnight Gracie... blue guy won.


 Pete you still have those? :boxing: We used to have those too, and I think the heads eventually fell off! How about do it again best out of three? My money's on blue!


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## hedgehogey (Jun 18, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Take a look at UFC 3. A HUGE striker, with only minimal fighter experience (Kimo) Hit Royce so hard and beat him so badly, he couldnt continue to the next match. Royce did beat him, but he couldnt go on after that. So a good, experienced fighter like Lee would kill him. Lee might not be big, but he had power and speed.


Sir: What could induce this form of retardation? 

Kimo is not bruce. Most importantly, kimo's alive. 

Kimo is many pounds larger and more powerful. He did not fight royce from bruce's side-on stance.  

He did not throw sidekicks. He did not fight in any way similiar to bruce lee, nor is he in any way physically similiar to lee.

He obviously juiced. 

Royce didn't stop fighting because he was injured. He stopped because he was exhausted, and after such a long battle i'd like to see you do better. 

And he still beat kimo.


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 18, 2004)

Well, first off.



> 2: Sakuraba is not a striker. He is a WRESTLER. A very good one at that. Sakuraba (singular) has never won a match by KO, all by submission



http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=84

While I might have been mistaken that there was more than one Sakuraba. You are at fault as well. Thank you very much.

And also, he beat all the gracies he fought by TKO.


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## gusano (Jun 18, 2004)

Sakuraba broke Renzo's arm via kimura, punished Royce and Royler with leg kicks while they were on the ground, and almost broke Roylers arm via kimura before the referee finally jumped in and stopped it as Royler had no intention of tapping. Sakuraba proved two things, 1. He is one tough fighter 2. If you want to beat GJJ you better be able to A.) Prevent yourself from being taken down... and/or... B.)Be able to get back up if you *are* taken down. His wrestling background enabled him to do this and his superior striking ability allowed him to punish the Gracie fighters he faced. Props to Saku!

The funny thing about comparing Royce to Bruce Lee is that today there is no shortage of Brazilians and MMA's who can beat Royce. Royce was never even the best fighter in his family! But you compare him to Bruce Lee. There are MANY MMA'a and Brasilians who would beat Bruce Lee. Thats the  problem with you people, thats the problem with TMA, you can't tell the difference between the movies and real life! Maybe Bruce would hit him in a pressure point and give him chronic diarrhea?


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## hedgehogey (Jun 18, 2004)

WLMantisKid said:
			
		

> Well, first off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How?


> And also, he beat all the gracies he fought by TKO.


Do you even know what a kimura IS? IT'S AN ARMLOCK. One used commonly in BJJ. 
I have almost all of sakuraba's fights on tape. HE HAS NOT WON A SINGLE FIGHT BY KO. TKO means the referee stopped the fight, NOT by striking in this case.


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 19, 2004)

Eh who cares. You missed the entire point anyway.

The gracies arent hot stuff.


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## MJS (Jun 19, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> Sir: What could induce this form of retardation?
> 
> Kimo is not bruce. Most importantly, kimo's alive.
> 
> ...



Excellent points!!!! :asian: 

Mike


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## MJS (Jun 19, 2004)

WLMantisKid said:
			
		

> Eh who cares. You missed the entire point anyway.
> 
> The gracies arent hot stuff.



Nobody said that they were.  They did however, open everyones eyes to the importance of learning grappling.  Not all fights stay on your feet you know.

Mike


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## Baytor (Jun 19, 2004)

I'll throw in my 2 cents here...

If by a cosmic miracle Royce and Bruce could fight, I think Bruce would have won.  If I'm not mistaken, he was researching grappling and ju-jitsu before he died.  That would have at least helped against someone like Royce.  Also, Bruce did what was the most efficient thing possible to end the fight as quickly as possible.  All that said...I think it would have been pretty ugly if Royce would get his hands on him.

As to the Superman/Batman question...Batman would win because a) he's kinda crazy.  b)  he always has a plan.  c)  Superman is a boy scout. (not that there's anything wrong with that.)
:asian:


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## hedgehogey (Jun 19, 2004)

WLMantisKid said:
			
		

> Eh who cares. You missed the entire point anyway.
> 
> The gracies arent hot stuff.


There's a 100,000$ prize in the gracie challenge for you if you really think so.


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## hedgehogey (Jun 19, 2004)

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> I'll throw in my 2 cents here...
> 
> If by a cosmic miracle Royce and Bruce could fight, I think Bruce would have won. If I'm not mistaken, he was researching grappling and ju-jitsu before he died. That would have at least helped against someone like Royce.


Starting to, yes. But not in any way comparable to royce's lifetime of experience.



> Also, Bruce did what was the most efficient thing possible to end the fight as quickly as possible.


Who doesn't?


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 19, 2004)

> There's a 100,000$ prize in the gracie challenge for you if you really think so.



I merely stated that they're not worth all the hype that people give them. Much like some people give Bruce. Much like some people give the Samura. Much like people give Jimmy Page.

There's nothing in saying things like that which would make me have to prove I'm better. 

I'll be the first to admit I'm not a good fighter, in fact I'd only have my strength of will to get me out of a bad situation. The Gracies could have their way with me, but they're not as hot as some people would like to say they are.


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## Fightfan00 (Jun 20, 2004)

I think that there wouldnt be any fight between Bruce and the Gracies because Bruces wisdom and age would take over for him and reason out the situation.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 10, 2004)

As Bruce Lee said, his eyestrikes would stop a fight most quickly. So Royce Gracie would stand a very good chance of being blinded for the rest of his life if Bruce Lee were still alive and they had fought it out in the street.


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## SMP (Jul 12, 2004)

gusano said:
			
		

> The Gracie challenge has existed in Brasil for 75 years to this day. The challenge is for a fight without rules. If these are the parameters you refer to then the Gracies have stacked the deck to win a no rules fight and thereby proven the effectiveness of GJJ.
> 
> If Bruce and Royce fought 100 times it could come out different ways with different victors each time. If Superman fought Batman he would destroy him!
> If my sister had a penis it would be bigger than mine...I mean, she'd be my brother. *IF *in one hand and *defecate* in the other and see which one fills up first!
> ...


 correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the UFC rules prohibit fish hooking, strikes to the spine and eye gouging. Now I have never met Bruce Lee but from my readings he would find the discussion of stylistic techniques advantages/disadvantages more interesting then who would win. Further Lee also indicated that the focus should not be on the outcome of the fight but the process.


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## hedgehogey (Jul 12, 2004)

SMP said:
			
		

> correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the UFC rules prohibit fish hooking, strikes to the spine and eye gouging. Now I have never met Bruce Lee but from my readings he would find the discussion of stylistic techniques advantages/disadvantages more interesting then who would win. Further Lee also indicated that the focus should not be on the outcome of the fight but the process.


They do now. They didn't back in 1993. This is the fault of ignorant congressmen.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 12, 2004)

Bruce Lee could kick my butt and so could the majority of the Gracies.  Perhaps they all have something to teach me... :asian:


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## Baoquan (Jul 12, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> Do you even know what a kimura IS? IT'S AN ARMLOCK. One used commonly in BJJ.
> I have almost all of sakuraba's fights on tape. HE HAS NOT WON A SINGLE FIGHT BY KO. TKO means the referee stopped the fight, NOT by striking in this case.



All of Saku's fights? Then you're familiar with his Royler fight in which he repeatedly knocks Royler down with kicks, high and low, and lands a spinner. And yes, Saku won by kimura, but most of the fight was Royler scooting around on his but while Saku kicked him in the legs.

And didn't Dan Henderson KO Renzo with punches in Pride 13?? 

My point here is not that BJJ sucks  - i'm well in favour of it, and plan on learning some myself....but the Gracie's are definately beatable, and by strikes....given, those strikes generatlly come from strikers with extensive grapplin' knowledge. 

And as for your "fanboy hatred" - physician, heal thyself.


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## hedgehogey (Jul 13, 2004)

Baoquan said:
			
		

> All of Saku's fights? Then you're familiar with his Royler fight in which he repeatedly knocks Royler down with kicks, high and low, and lands a spinner. And yes, Saku won by kimura, but most of the fight was Royler scooting around on his but while Saku kicked him in the legs.
> 
> And didn't Dan Henderson KO Renzo with punches in Pride 13??
> 
> ...


Sure, those guys are great MMA fighters. Note *MMA* fighters. They know all ranges of fighting, standing, clinch and ground.

A *pure striker* has NEVER had success in MMA. There are fighters who prefer striking and those who prefer grappling. But if you don't know grappling, you're toast. 

In fact, Sak didn't even train strikes at all until after his third fight!


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## Zepp (Jul 13, 2004)

Royce Gracie would totally drink Bruce Lee under the table, but I'd bet Bruce could eat way more of those funny brownies than Royce could.


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## Baoquan (Jul 13, 2004)

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> A *pure striker* has NEVER had success in MMA. There are fighters who prefer striking and those who prefer grappling. But if you don't know grappling, you're toast.



Never? Never once?? I think you better take a deep breath, think, _then_ post.

Granted, grapplers dominated early MMA, especially UFC, because the stand-up fighters were, on the whole, totally unprepared for dirt-rolling, and they had their butt's handed to them - but thats like turning up to a football game and only having offensive plays. Of course you're gunna get whooped. Once the strikers started learning take-down defence, which is only a small part of grappling, the playing field definately changed. Dan Henderson, for example, has excellent TD defence - so does Pedro Rizzo, who despite being a Vale Tudo fighter, has won the vast, vast majority of his fights by KO, TKO or submission to strikes (many from GnP, but his stand up power is amazing.)

How about Cal Worsham, a (gasp) TKD stylist?? His MMA record is not great (6-7-0), but those 6 ticks in the W column would indicate _some_ success, dont you think??

And finally, does anyone remember a 220-or so-lb Kenpo BB knocking out a 600-or-so-lb wannabe-sumo in the early days of UFC?? Counts as a pure stirker in my book. 

Grappling is a _vital_ part of the MMA game, but a far smaller part of the MA game, as a whole. I likes it, i do, but i've sparred with BJJ guys, and its definately possible to beat 'em - i've done it....just as i've been pretzelled by them, in my turn.

As far as the OP - Wile E. Coyote wins by submission - Rocket Skate in Gracie's Butt. :uhyeah:


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## hedgehogey (Jul 13, 2004)

Baoquan said:
			
		

> Never? Never once?? I think you better take a deep breath, think, _then_ post.
> 
> Granted, grapplers dominated early MMA, especially UFC, because the stand-up fighters were, on the whole, totally unprepared for dirt-rolling, and they had their butt's handed to them - but thats like turning up to a football game and only having offensive plays. Of course you're gunna get whooped. Once the strikers started learning take-down defence, which is only a small part of grappling, the playing field definately changed. Dan Henderson, for example, has excellent TD defence - so does Pedro Rizzo, who despite being a Vale Tudo fighter, has won the vast, vast majority of his fights by KO, TKO or submission to strikes (many from GnP, but his stand up power is amazing.)
> 
> ...



You totally missed the point. EVERY succesful MMA fighter nowadays can grapple. 

This isn't about MMA fighters who prefer to strike. They're still MMA fighters, and they all know how to grapple.

CROCOP can grapple, and has been forced to use it many times in his career. 

Crocop can kick harder than anyone on this forum.  I would venture to guess that crocop can kick harder than any equivalent sized mammal. 

He still gets taken down. He still is forced to grapple. 

His poor guard passing proved to be his undoing when he fought minotauro. Minotauro by armbar. 

I would bet money on crocop as being the hardest kicker alive. 

But when it goes down, he plays the ground game.

Having a ground game is not OPTIONAL. It is a neccesity.


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 13, 2004)

Predator, easy. He--or she--has a much less silly name.


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## Baoquan (Jul 13, 2004)

Yes, _someone_ is missing _something_.

Dude...if you make an argument true by definition, you're not really going to explore the possibilities much, are you?

Yeah, CroCop is a machine. Kicks really hard. Gets taken down. Loses on the ground.

Saku, on the other hand, is a grappler, but can strike amazingly well for a guy who's come to the game relatively recently. When he fought Royler, he did it standing, and kicking..when he went down, he got straight back up...and kept putting Royler down with kicks. The point is, striking is just as vital, because if you're an inneffective striker, a good MMA fighter will keep you at that range, and dominate you...and bringing us back to the OP, Lee was familiar with grappling - he spent time on the mat with Gene. He could potentially have kept a gracie at range - he was exceptionally talented at fighting at angles, and judging ranges and timing. I doubt he could have done it 100% of the time, but i doubt the gracie in question would have been successful 100% of the time - he's been stymied by fighters of far lesser talents than Lee.


We basically agree on the issue - MMA is a sport of ranges, and you need them all. I agree that grappling is vital to the MMA game - read my last post. But its not be all and end all. I cant believe you jump into the thread blasting folks as "nutriders" and "fanboys", and then happily evangelise away on your BJJ riff.


I didnt really jump in on the thread to argue who's daddy is bigger - i agree its pointless. But when you flame other posters as nutriders and fanboys, and then engage in some egregious nutriding of your own, the temptation to play devils advocate was just too much.

Jump on in, throw your ideas around, but a little self-examination goes a long way, you know?

Cheers

B


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## DavidCC (Jul 14, 2004)

"Dude...if you make an argument true by definition, you're not really going to explore the possibilities much, are you?"

"But when you flame other posters as nutriders and fanboys, and then engage in some egregious nutriding of your own, the temptation to play devils advocate was just too much.

Jump on in, throw your ideas around, but a little self-examination goes a long way, you know?"

"Never? Never once?? I think you better take a deep breath, think, _then_ post."

This is how HH "wins" evey discussion, and has thus proved to the entire Intenet the BJJ is the best thing EVER INVENTED BY HUMAN BEINGS. Baoquan, joo ben pwned!  ROFLMAO
:fart: :flushed:


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## hedgehogey (Jul 14, 2004)

Funny, I didn't even mention BJJ until after you guys brought it up.I just think it's ridiculous to compare royce, a midlevel proffesional fighter with bruce whose fighting carreer consists of one hong kong teenage boxing tournament.


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