# Decline of CMA



## 7starmantis (Oct 21, 2002)

Do you guys see a decline in CMA in general as far as interest by the general public? I'm not saying its a bad thing, but it seems people look at kung fu and most CMA as "magical" "fantasy" type arts forms that wouldn't work if put to the test. Anyone getting that feeling other than myself?


7sm


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## fist of fury (Oct 21, 2002)

No you're not the only one. It seems to come from myths that sports like the UFC have propagated.


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## Skarbromantis (Oct 21, 2002)

Hay 7star

I agree that most of the CMA (magical, fantasy) arts are not so popular right now, do to all the NHB fights and the BBJ, I think its great, let all the "I want to be a bad ***" go to the other MMA, myself I prefer it that way, that way, the ones that do go looking for CMA, have a genuine love for the art, It is like this...

There is a huge Tai Boxing club, that has some of the best fighters, UFC and all that type, if you want to be a bad *** around these parts you go and train there, all of the "I could kick your ***" type in my city go there, I go study with a small 70yr Master, doesnt make me tough or cool, only honored.

(I hope that make sense, got to type quick at work)

Skard1


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## Matt Stone (Oct 22, 2002)

CMA have been declining in the US from the moment the first student bought into the "he is Chinese and therefore MUST be legitimate" theory.  CMA are taught all over the world, but the only schools who produce consistently quality students are few and far between...

Those schools are disciplined, uniformed, and focused.  The schools where discipline is lax, uniforms non-existent, and students meander through their training at the whim of the teacher produce the student often envisioned by those who believe CMA are "mystical" and "magical."  Folks who think Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was a true story flock to these kinds of schools...

Folks who think that Internal MA mean floppy, droopy relaxedness, constant push hands training at the expense of everything else, and believing that _qi_ will take care of everything contribute to the problem.

CMA have the longest documented history of fighting techiques in the world (barring some theories about Egyptian and Greek styles).  In 5000 years of history, I find it hard to believe that other "upstart" arts have come up with things so revolutionary that CMA haven't done it already long ago.

BUT, with the droopy eyed new age folks being the main ones propagating a popular view of CMA, who do we point the finger at?  Only at ourselves for not going out of our way to show the public how wrong those other folks are...

Sorry for the rant, but this one cuts too close to home.  I have to contend with four Temple Kung Fu schools in my area and a Shaolin school whose teacher doesn't know what Chuan Fa is.  With loonies like that bantering about, causing irreparable damage to the image of CMA in the public eye, I take great pains to make sure folks know that the training group I am a part of is legit.

Gambarimasu.


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## SifuAbel (Oct 22, 2002)

Public opinion is a funny thing. I don't think the average american really knows much about the whole UFC thing. In contrast to movies that are more available. 

Media does play a huge part in perception. Back in the bruce lee days people saw him and wanted to learn what he was doing. It was more accessable than the jackie chan or jet lee films that are too complex for people to actually beleive its something they could attain. They see it and think its awesome but few beleive they can be that good, so why try. Kung fu oriented films need to be less over the top when it comes to choreography and yet maintain some resemblance that it is kung fu. \


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## 7starmantis (Oct 22, 2002)

Well, I agree with Yiliquan1, I also feel the need to let people know my training is serious and legit. Sometimes its simply by example, but I do try to show that at all times. I understand about the UFC and Pride fighting right now, but its not like something hasn't allways been there to lure the general masses out of their money with the line of "the best of the best". I would prefer it that way like Skarbromantis said, it cuts down on those people joining CMA in search for the ultimate tool to kick *** with. On the other hand, it seems alot of people are looking at CMA and deciding to go with other systems, in my case particularly "hard" systems. I don't mind people who don't think CMA is for them, but it seems even the ones who train in CMA have this belief that they are just studying history and still need to take a "fighting" art. Maybe its the fact that few students are serious enough to study hard for the length of time it takes to grasp what most CMA are all about. Either way it is still bugging me, and I know alot of the blame has to be placed on CMAist themselves.


7sm


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## 7starmantis (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by SifuAbel _
> 
> *Public opinion is a funny thing. I don't think the average american really knows much about the whole UFC thing. In contrast to movies that are more available.
> 
> Media does play a huge part in perception. Back in the bruce lee days people saw him and wanted to learn what he was doing. It was more accessable than the jackie chan or jet lee films that are too complex for people to actually beleive its something they could attain. They see it and think its awesome but few beleive they can be that good, so why try. Kung fu oriented films need to be less over the top when it comes to choreography and yet maintain some resemblance that it is kung fu. \ *



I don't think public opinion on a MA system should be gotten from a movie or set of movies. If you take your opinion from them you are not doing your research and are not serious enough to train properly anyway, I think. If we cater the Kung Fu movies to the non-kung fu crowd, what movies will we watch?

7sm


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## SifuAbel (Oct 22, 2002)

I'm not talking about me. I've been at this 20 years already. I'm talking about lay people and those whom don't know any better which is 95 % of the people out there. Every time some new movie came up I got telephone calls from people asking f I did ninjitsu or thai boxing or whatever the flavor of the month was. It was usually driven by what they saw on TV or in films. Most who seek instruction don't know what they want until they have been at it for a while.


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## 7starmantis (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by SifuAbel _
> 
> *I'm not talking about me. I've been at this 20 years already. I'm talking about lay people and those whom don't know any better which is 95 % of the people out there. Every time some new movie came up I got telephone calls from people asking f I did ninjitsu or thai boxing or whatever the flavor of the month was. It was usually driven by what they saw on TV or in films. Most who seek instruction don't know what they want until they have been at it for a while. *



Yes, I understand that, but dont you think we will allways have to deal with that? AS a business you want to be in popular demand, but if you think about it, in the long run, you want serious students, return customers if you will. I don't think the ratio of serious students in the crowd that calls and asks, "Can you teach me that stuff from croutching tiger?", is going to be that large. People will allways call around after seeing a movie, but will they actually train seriously, even if you said yes you could teach them that?


7sm


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## theneuhauser (Oct 23, 2002)

sorry to jump in a little late here, folks.
yiliquan, you are so right. it's kind of a big mess. 
actually, this internet is probably the best thing going on for the propagation of good kung fu in america. while, there is a whole truckload of sour apples and bad intentions and greedy idiots, we are also connected well here. since ive moved here to AZ, ive bounced around between teachers looking for something of substance, something to commit myself to, but if it werent for the internet, i would be resorting to a phone book, or word of mouth. 
so, it hasnt helped me out all that much yet, but look at it this way. you no longer have to open up a karate palace on the corner and sell out to teaching 5 year olds anymore. if you want to teach traditionally, at home, or in the park with 4 or 5 dedicated martial artists, rather than watching people come and go like the supermarket, all it takes is a few students that respect you on the web. they will do the advertising for you and you can pick and choose your people based on what's important and not worry about making rent every month. i think thats great. Maybe wushu is going back to it's roots, families and tong's in their backyards and garages learning real martial arts without distractions, while the rest of the public can only guess about it.


sorry, just my wet dream.


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## yilisifu (Nov 23, 2002)

I definately think the public's image of CMA is heavily influenced by what they see in the movies and on television - that's where Bruce Lee got his start.  If he hadn't starred in the "Green Hornet" series, he probably would have been just another average kung-fu teacher in America...

   These kinds of media have focused almost entirely on the outer, fighting aspects of the arts and have, in many cases, taken them to the level of fantasy.

   Additionally, the tournament scene has become something of a joke what with competitors demonstrating homemade forms which look like a violent interpretation of Swan Lake and fighting with huge marshmallow pads while using techniques that resemble what one might see in a local boxing club.

   The UFC event is, in my opinion, a tragic misrepresentation of martial arts.  They miss the second word in that phrase; "art."  UFC is about two kliks below being a "martial arts" version of WWF and has virtually nothing to do with real martial arts.  Yet, it fills the martial arts magazines with it's hype.

    Additionally, there are a great many "martial arts" schools which teach different varieties of bunk.  And a number of the "legitimate" schools teach what might be called "sterile" kung-fu.  They're like doughnuts; nothing in the center but lots of yummies on the outside.

   As long as we tolerate this kind of exploitation, we will suffer it's results.....a public that thinks kung-fu is a cute fantasy, a form of Chinese dancing mixed with some nifty gymnastic maneuvers, and so on.

   In the past, I stood up and made my opinions very clear to the kung-fu public.  I made some friends and some enemies.  But if we would all stand up and shout, maybe someone would listen.:soapbox:


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 23, 2002)

I'lll throw my two cents in at this time.
  I think that most Americans want what is popular and the latest trend/fad.  For a while it was Karate,next Korean, then the Cma, then Fillipino, and now MMA.  "It's whats happening DUDE"
  Most people do not want to spend the time required to learn the "old" arts. They want fast, "I can look impressive in a week" arts.  To really learn an art takes a goodly portion of a life time and most  Americans do not put that amount of energy into to many things.
  As for thr MMA, well sorry to say this but it looks like what we did on the play ground when I was a kid.  Anything goes just beat the hell out of the guy/girl in front of you.  Is it new, hell no, just better advertised and it has good PR men now.:soapbox: 
 IMHO
shadow


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## chufeng (Nov 23, 2002)

OK, problem is identified...now what do WE do to fix it?

Do we treat it as a virus and allow it to burn itself out?
Or do we SHOW the real thing at every opportunity?

I know I would do poorly in tournament sparring because:

a) I will allow myself to be hit in order to close the distance.
b) I will attack with classical postures...(no patty-cake crap for me).
c) I will hit points that are NOT considered vital by most folks, or that are considered "fouls" by others.

But, I'm willing to go and be disqualified 

I don't see how that would help the current problem, though...

any thoughts?

:asian:
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (Nov 23, 2002)

How to fix it...  Hmmm...

When I get into discussions with people about martial arts, I stay away from defining what I do...  I let them see a few techniques, explain some theories, and only _then_ do I let it fly that I do CMA, much less internal CMA.

While I hate to say it, I have been best received by some MMA guys and traditional Japanese/Okinawan guys I have met.  They didn't judge based on country of origin, but withheld their judgement until after they saw the techniques.

I called a few schools in my area in the hopes of finding something else cool to study in addition to Yiliquan, and instead of doing so I found I was being congratulated for having had the training I have had...

How to fix it...  Hmmm...

The internet is a good venue for getting information out, getting word around about who is doing what.  Real teachers providing quality training can be advertised for free and word of mouth will spread their repuation.  It also exposes frauds very quickly, and the word about them can get out quickly.

But that still doesn't change what people do.

I do my best to "spread the word" about what real training is like.  I don't just proselytize Yiliquan, either.  I have studied Modern Arnis and (very briefly) Ryu Te Karate, and so have been exposed to some other "real" styles in addition to Yili.  My concern is to get people who are teaching crap or learning crap to recognize that what they are doing is crap and that there is much better instruction available out there.

I think that the crap instructors are only successful due to A) preying on the ignorance of the general public and B) continuing the ignorance of their present students.  It has been my experience that when folks learn that what they have been studying was crap, and they are not so egotistic as to be unable to let go of their prior training in search of better education, they run (not walk) to a good instructor without reservations.

So we need to get the word out, be in the public (martial arts community) eye, and be very open and honest about what we are supposed to be doing.

We need to tear down the veil of ignorance and expose the truth of martial arts as a whole, and of CMA in general.  Sometimes that is going to piss people off.  Sometimes that is going to earn us some rather vocal enemies.  Whatever.  If enough peopel stand up proclaiming their adherence to "real" martial arts and refusing to allow frauds and hoaxes to abound, eventually things will turn around.

Of course, it would help if we could eliminate greed as a motivating factor for some instructors.

It is a long road and a hard battle.  But I, for one, have enlisted for the cause...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## yilisifu (Nov 23, 2002)

Fixing the problem is a tough row to hoe.  Mnay moons ago, I was the Nat'l Chairman for the AAU Chinese Martial Arts Division.  It became the largest Chinese Martial Arts organization in the U.S.

   My intention was to do what I could to preserve the integrity and true spirit of the Chinese martial arts, and to improve competitive events.

   I met with the kung-fu leaders throughout the U.S.  Many of these leaders were interested only in two things; (1) Money, and (2) Gaining Face.  In that order.
   Some were interested in achieving the same goals I had in mind and they were willing to work hard to do it.  But they were very few.

   I think we have to begin by insisting, through letters or by whatever means available, that the martial arts media stop exploiting the kind of hype we see with the UFC and other events and teachers who are frauds or who, at the very least, have no real interest in promoting or preserving the integrity and true spirit of our arts.
   We have to make our feelings known to tournament promoters who hold events wherein we find as many as 20 or more form divisions (to keep everyone happy); ie., southern short fist, northern long fist, Yang Taiji, Wu Taiji, Chen Taiji, blah, blah, blah.
And events such as competitive Push-Hands (??? C'mon, guys, get real - push hands was never a competitive event as far as I know) - which we laughingly referred to as "Greco-Roman Push-Hands - or competitive Chi-Sau (ditto)........or putting on boxing gloves and armor for sparring which looks like very sloppy muay-thai (I've seen better fights in a schoolyard) instead of real, traditional martial arts......

   Moreover, we need to train our students in the traditional ways.  

   I made more than a few enemies during my time with AAU; I fired more than one kung-fu "leader" because he/she was simply unwilling to do the job (just wanted the title) or adhere to very strict standards.

   But I've made this art my life and I'm here for the duration.  Whatever I can do to help, I will do.


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## brianhunter (Dec 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *I'lll throw my two cents in at this time.
> I think that most Americans want what is popular and the latest trend/fad.  For a while it was Karate,next Korean, then the Cma, then Fillipino, and now MMA.  "It's whats happening DUDE"
> Most people do not want to spend the time required to learn the "old" arts. They want fast, "I can look impressive in a week" arts.  To really learn an art takes a goodly portion of a life time and most  Americans do not put that amount of energy into to many things.
> ...



Im late on this on but it reminds me of when the "J'Lo" movie "Enough" came out....Women everywhere wanted to learn "Krav Maga" I actually seen a couple of websites debunking it as a pyramid scheme, right or wrong it was interesting to read and something that seem "happening" for the time being.


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## Elfan (Dec 24, 2002)

I think what would help you in your quest there is to diferentiate between the attitude/hype/portraly surrounding the UFC and the UFC itself.  The people in the MMA forum arn't pleased with the WWF-like stuf either.


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## Matt Stone (Jan 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *   I think we have to begin by insisting, through letters or by whatever means available, that the martial arts media stop exploiting the kind of hype we see with the UFC and other events and teachers who are frauds or who, at the very least, have no real interest in promoting or preserving the integrity and true spirit of our arts.*



I think people will always have a deep seated perversion that will draw them to gladiatorial games...  To paraphrase _Field of Dreams_, "if you promote it, they will come..."

I think "martial entertainment" is fine, but when it gets passed off for the real thing then we have a problem...  I don't doubt that the fighters in UFC and other copycat productions can handle themselves well (you don't see *me* trying out for that *****, do you???  Not likely!), but is it martial *arts*?



> *   We have to make our feelings known to tournament promoters who hold events wherein we find as many as 20 or more form divisions (to keep everyone happy); ie., southern short fist, northern long fist, Yang Taiji, Wu Taiji, Chen Taiji, blah, blah, blah.  And events such as competitive Push-Hands (??? C'mon, guys, get real - push hands was never a competitive event as far as I know) - which we laughingly referred to as "Greco-Roman Push-Hands - or competitive Chi-Sau (ditto)........or putting on boxing gloves and armor for sparring which looks like very sloppy muay-thai (I've seen better fights in a schoolyard) instead of real, traditional martial arts......*



I remember when I first started training...  There were homegrown, local tournaments constantly from about August until around February.  You couldn't help but hear of a new tournament every few weeks.

Now it seems that unless there are sponsors crawling out of the woodwork and tons of greenbacks to be had, nobody puts on tournaments at all...

When I first went to tournaments, there were good friends to be had, good fights to fight, good names to be made...  Occasionally there was also the "arch-enemy" to earn as well.  As years progressed, there was less of the cameraderie and more competition...  Not sure I care(d) for that much... 



> *   But I've made this art my life and I'm here for the duration.  Whatever I can do to help, I will do. *



As my teacher speaks, so too must I volunteer to fix what ails our community...  I think forums like this are one (small) step toward doing just that.  But we need to make such feelings more public, ingrain these attitudes on our students so that their students carry the torch further...

Sooo...  Anybody up in Washington State care to put together a friendly tournament?  I'll do whatever I can to help, and I won't even charge a dime...  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## theletch1 (Mar 8, 2003)

The instructors that are running the schools that are there just for the money or the instructors ego do well for a few years and then fade away.  You have a very hard time keeping a school going when none of your students stick with the art long enough to make the higher ranks.  However, a lot of these instructors aren't worried about that scenario so long as a steady stream on new students come through the door and stay long enough to pay the exorbitant initiatian fees and uniform fees and so forth.  
     That which makes the difference between martial ART and martial SKILL is a certain ethereal quality that drives the student to truly understand not only how to do something but WHY to do something.  I don't know of any way to instill that into another human being.  It seems to either be there or not.
     The movies and other forms of the entertainment industry have become such a driving force for the public that it behooves the instructor to interview the prospective student before beginning any training.  This however presents a problem as we live in the most litigious society in the world.  The first time an instructor tells an individual that they will not teach them then they open themselves up to a law suit.
     The be all and end all of my tirade here is this... the qualities which make a true martial artist are dying out in the world today.  I don't think we can actually "fix" the problem with out fixing a lot more in the world.  CMA or for that matter any worthwhile martial art is not a quick path to becoming barney bad *** and sadly that seems to be what far too many of todays students are after.
     I just left a school because I did not feel that ethereal something from the instructor.  The techniques were good, the physical training was adequate but there was no third side to the triangle that is so often bandied about.  Had the mind and the body but truly and sadly lacking in the spirit of the martial art.  Until the spirit returns to the kwoon we will continue to see a lack of interest in CMA.

respectfully
theletch1  
:asian:


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## arnisador (Mar 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by theletch1 _
> * I just left a school because I did not feel that ethereal something from the instructor.  The techniques were good, the physical training was adequate but there was no third side to the triangle that is so often bandied about.   *



Yeah, been there, done that, got the (school) T-shirt still in my closet somewhere.


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## taekwonfool (Mar 8, 2003)

I am interested in CMA but people think that it is a waste of time.
I had the privilege of studying for 6 months until I was forced to move where a few kung fu joints exist.
I have my choice of 2 big wow and they both suck badly compared to where I was.
I went to one for free classes and the place was really crappy.
The Sifu offered very little if any useful correction to bad postures,etc.
The students were sloppy with a nice pair of black jog pants and a T-shirt with the school name on it of course.
Half of them came in street clothes and looked sloppy as crap.
The contracting was unbelieveable if you wanted a black belt you had to sign up for 24 months with a credit card at over $100 a month plus equipment costs.
Then the trick was the master did'nt teach everything and had special seminars for only $39.95 additional you could learn everything else.
It reminded me of a jerk off tv offer with a make a million type attitude.
They went to tournament in West Va. and got their heads knocked off by Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do artists.
I heard they were really bad and set the art back years by just being there.
I do traditional CMA at a local art center where the guy teaches for $12 a class and he is so much better.
The art has enhanced my Tae Kwon Do and made me very fast.
I'm a yellow belt with TKD but I can out move and go faster than the black belts.
I just wear them down by dodging and blocking then pound them when they are fatigued.
They respect the art now that I can demonstrate how it should be done and the second dan hates the blocks because the nail his best kicks.


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## 7starmantis (Jun 7, 2004)

Lately I've been thinking about this again. It does seem however that the MA stars of Hollywood are pretty much CMAist right now. I mean Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Mark Dacoscos, even in Kill Bill she was studying kung fu. The mainstream is hearing kung fu more I think, but no one really knows what it is. I'm shocked all the time when I talk to instructors of other systems who have been studying for 30 years and have no clue about kung fu. Just strange I think.


7sm


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## loki09789 (Jun 7, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Do you guys see a decline in CMA in general as far as interest by the general public? I'm not saying its a bad thing, but it seems people look at kung fu and most CMA as "magical" "fantasy" type arts forms that wouldn't work if put to the test. Anyone getting that feeling other than myself?
> 
> 
> 7sm


Good post 7*, I think the problem is partly do to action film enthusiasm.  See the Matrix/the ONE or some other movie and then go to the local CMA school only to find that it isn't going to look like that and it isn't going to happen instantaneously....

CMA's tend to be less straight forward than JMA as well.  They tend to be more 'exotic' looking and that can make them intimidating to non practitioners.  You work hard in most CMA classes (relative to the family Karate center types of programs) and that weeds out the non hackers as well...

There may be a decline, but I don't know if it a bad thing to be on the floor with fewer dedicated students than a floor full of 'wanna bes.'


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## 7starmantis (Jun 7, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Good post 7*, I think the problem is partly do to action film enthusiasm. See the Matrix/the ONE or some other movie and then go to the local CMA school only to find that it isn't going to look like that and it isn't going to happen instantaneously....
> 
> CMA's tend to be less straight forward than JMA as well. They tend to be more 'exotic' looking and that can make them intimidating to non practitioners. You work hard in most CMA classes (relative to the family Karate center types of programs) and that weeds out the non hackers as well...
> 
> There may be a decline, but I don't know if it a bad thing to be on the floor with fewer dedicated students than a floor full of 'wanna bes.'


I can agree with that 100%. I talk to lots of people who come in the school because thye saw Kill Bill, or Matrix and want to learn that "stuff". I guess your right, the decline could be a good thing, but as a school owner, I couldn't imagine it to be very secure feeling.

7sm


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 7, 2004)

Let me say that when it comes to CMA here in Texas. We do have alot of schools and good programs. But alot of people are teaching the traditional way, or just forms. No self-defense, or combat applications. And when they do teach the combat applications, what kind are they teaching? Yes alot of people ask me everyday when they see a movie like Kill Bill or the matrix and ask me if I can teach them that. I tell them of course I can, but at what price? And when I mean price I mean how much time and effort are they willing to put into it. I teach for free now just private lessons out of my home. I teach them only the combat portion. Thats all they want to know. By reading that line right there I am sure that plenty of you fellow CMAist are outraged because thats not how it works. Well Thats how I was taught as a child. I did all the exercises and did strange jobs that I thought were pointless until my teacher showed me they werent. People want to learn now, and dont want to work for it. In America anyway. Its a fast food society. And when they start to train with me they learn that its not that easy. "Well how do they make it look so easy?" They ask me. I play the Behind the scenes of the matrix and tell them that they trained for 6 months everyday, and I show them a Jet li biography and show them that he has been doing this since he was a child. They are surprised when I tell them that the kung fu they see and the kung fu they practice are completely different That "Movie Kung Fu" is something else. That combat, and the movement is straight forward and fights last barely 30 sec. So they usually quit and go to a Taekwondo school down the way thinking that my way is just flashy and nothing else. That Taekwondo they are taking is the real deal over my training. But then they come back and see that I move like Jet li, and hit like an Agent and wonder, Maybe just maybe, CMA are the real thing. thats my opinon on it. I will write more. thats enough for this post. dont get me wrong I love Taekwondo and dont wont to offend anyone who takes it, I just used that as a reference, cause they are 100 taekwondo schools to 1 CMA school in my area.


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## 7starmantis (Jun 8, 2004)

Welcome Fasterthandeath, I haven't seen you on the boards before, so allow me to say welcome and make yourself at home! 
May I ask what style of kung fu you study? Also, may I ask who your sifu is? I think you are very right about people coming in looking for stuff they have seen in a movie and then not understanding the sacrifice needed t oreally become skilled at kung fu or even MA in general.

7sm


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 9, 2004)

Thank you 7star. My Sifu(who I referred to as brother by his request) was a 53 yr old man by the name of James Wey Hwang. His orignal first name was Wey but when he moved here he changed it to James. He died at the age of 71 last year. Great man ,more like my father. He taught me Southern styles of Kung Fu, but not katas or forms. Just combat. It wasnt as weird as it sounds but when you think about it, it is very weird. Two of them were drunken style, and pa kua/hsing-i or as its referred to as chinese boxing. Now I teach privately out of my home and the home of chosen students. For free. Whats scary is that I am only 23 yrs old, and here in the MA world of Texas. Noone here can respect me because of my age.


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## Matt Stone (Jun 9, 2004)

"Movie Fu" is one of the greatest detriments to the acceptance of Chinese martial arts as legitimate fighting arts.

FTD - You "hit like an Agent?"  I'd say that, at the age of 23, you might have a need to relate to those who might be attracted to you as a teacher, but in dealing with the public at large statements like that will earn you nothing but criticism.

As a student of Bagua and Xingyi, they are not collective referred to as "Chinese boxing."  "Chinese boxing" refers to _every_ method of empty handed fighting originating in China.  Bagua and Xingyi are simply Bagua and Xingyi...  Unless they're not...   :uhyeah: 

As for no one respecting you because of your age...  Hmmm...   :idunno: If you think you deserve respect, it may be a sign that you still have some growing to do as a martial artist.  It is frustrating, to be sure, to have someone question your physical skill regardless of your age (there are many older practitioners quite capable of besting people 3 and 4 decades their junior), but to demand respect demonstrates a lack of humility (one of the traits that is cultivated through many years of MA training).  You might want to rethink that stance as well, and just be yourself.  A teacher I held in high esteem when I was younger once told me "Don't try to impress me.  You can't.  I've simply seen too much for you to do something new enough, unique enough, to impress me.  Don't try to impress anyone.  Just *be* impressive.  That'll do."

Good advice, and it has served me well.

 :asian:


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## RHD (Jun 9, 2004)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> "Movie Fu" is one of the greatest detriments to the acceptance of Chinese martial arts as legitimate fighting arts.
> 
> FTD - You "hit like an Agent?"  I'd say that, at the age of 23, you might have a need to relate to those who might be attracted to you as a teacher, but in dealing with the public at large statements like that will earn you nothing but criticism.
> 
> ...



Very well put Mr. Stone. :supcool: 

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Jun 9, 2004)

I second that, very well stated.

7sm


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 9, 2004)

In my post to me "hitting like an agent", it was just to prove my point on people who dont know the sacrifice it takes in CMA to be that "Impressive". And as far as me impressing anyone, I dont really care about impressing anyone or really being impressive, I would rather be Effective, and complete. Being impressive denotes a little bit of flare to what is called self-defense. I stopped trying to impress people at my first tourney when I was 10. The look on the judges faces were like they were bored out of their minds!!!! Alot of people always questions no matter what, your skill and what you know, and always like to add in the "What if" factor and that you cant stop that if I do this. Its the slander. Its the lying. The simple fact that I was trained very well and I can do what I say I can do. People being afraid of me, thats what I dont like. I cant control any of it. I just dont like it. But like I said in the thread which deals with this topic. When you see a Shaolin child move and fight like nothing you have ever seen before noone questions him/her. Hey you cant do that. Your in Shaolin? No your not. Your too young. You cant do those things. Yes they can. I think by underestimating that, you are not a very good MA. Thats just my opinon.


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## Matt Stone (Jun 9, 2004)

*FasterthanDeath* - 

I've tried to be civil and address your posts as politely as I am able, however the nature of your posts, the nature of your claims, are making me rapidly believe that you spend far too much time in a fantasy world of martial arts stories, and too little time training in a real school with a real teacher.

Having spent a very long time pursuing my MA training, I can say that young wannabe masters, idolizing fans of Bruce, Jet and other Lee's, starry eyed idealists who yearn for a time romanticized in film, contribute to what this thread first started discussing - the decline of Chinese martial arts.

Too many movie-fu students who believe what they do is real.  Too many Dungeons and Dragons players who can't see the boundary between fantasy and reality.  Too many disenfranchised youths who want to find a niche in society, no matter how far removed, in which to "belong."

Real martial arts, real "kung fu," is nowhere near that glamorous nor dramatic.

You need some more work, as do we all...

 :asian:


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

Now I am a youth who is looking to fit in society? CMA is my life. I spent thousands of hours training, exercising and trying to make myself the best I can be, physically and spiritually. I dont want to fit in. I dont want to be honored or called anything. I just want to be treated like a person. Here in the DFW metroplex, if you are a MA you are seperated into two fields. Chinese, and Taekwondo practioners. My art is not dramatic. But the politics in which I want to improve, display, or teach others is. I love CMA. And will always love them. But the problem lies in what others only think, not know. It has lead to people attacking me and to confronting and attacking my students. How is it not dramatic? How many times are my students set up in a tournament to fight an opponent who is 6 or 7 belt ranks above them? How many times do I attend a seminar or tourney only to be told to leave at the door? Its not the CMA community that gives me the problem, its the other arts here in Texas. And a think you are still being polite, It doesnt get ugly till there is name calling. I would love to hear more please, I always think that I could be wrong. But to clarify the "fantasizing", being a mixed race child, I have had alot of fights in my time. There is no fantasizing. Its too real.


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## RHD (Jun 10, 2004)

Heres's a tip:  Stop going to TKD tournaments.  If you're really doing CMA, then you can't use half of your techniques anyway, and point tag doesn't work at all with Southern Kung Fu.  Get a job.  Save your money.  Go to a national or international level Chinese tournament.  Win.  Stand up and be recognized.  But whining about the TKD people not giving you respect is nothing but whining. :uhyeah: 
Mike


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## 7starmantis (Jun 10, 2004)

Speaking of which, you should enter some CMA tournaments such as Taiji Legacy. It is an international CMA tourney held in Arlington (Dallas) with like 800 competitors, and probably more this year. These are the tournaments that will give you the backing you need to stand up and "prove yourself" if you will. I'll be there along with most of the US Kung Fu Exchange, this is the kind of tourney you want to win, not the TKD ones. There will be competitors from mainland china, Germany, Italy, the U.S. and many other countries. 



I do have to agree however that the nature of your posts seem to be a little "cocky". I'm not saying you are "cocky" but there is a difference in having confidence in your own skills and going past the line. I can relate because I'm only a few years older than you, and I've studied CMA for most of my life as well. However, I don't feel that my skill warrants huge respect. There are those with skill much greater than mine. Having confidence in your skill to me is something that is just for me. I know how confident I am and I use that in case I'm somewhere and something goes down, I know I can get out of there or defend myself. However, when you confidence becomes for others to see and not for yourself, I think that is when it becomes arrogance. I'm not saying you are arrogant, I'm just saying be careful not to become that way. My sigung (teachers teacher) lives in the Dallas area and has a school there. He has been doing 7 star mantis kung fu for over 40 years. He had three black belts before that and he doesn't even refer to himself as master. If you want to judge your skill level go to some of these kinds of schools and do some classes. You'll see really quick whether your skill is above being able to learn more, or not quite where you thought it was. In fact go by his school: NTKFE.



I think the idea of being impressive is ok as long as you are impressive because of your skill and not something you have said. There are a few of my younger kung fu brothers and sisters who are impressive to me simply because of the amount of hard work they put into their kung fu. Now they probably want to impress me with their kung fu; I'm not impressed, I've seen way better kung fu. There work though impresses me, because not many people are willing these days to put that much work into it. So I like what was said earlier, dont try to impress, just simply BE impressive.




7sm


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

Yes the taji legacy the only CMA tournament that is held here in the DFW area. Hosted by jimmy wong, a very nice guy. I love those tournaments. And I do attend them every year. I feel thats how tournaments should be and they are always very very good. The reason I feel this way is, I have a fellow MA who asked me along time ago to help him create a system. So, half-heartedly I helped him with some self-defense moves here and there. Pretty much giving him the basics of self-defense. Well he makes it into a system, not a CMA system but one of Japanese orientation. And declares himself Grandmaster of the art. Which I understand, if you created it you are the GM. But then its like he gets accepted to join the Texas Martial arts hall of fame, and he is now introuduced at tournaments and his name is now said right along all of the great MA that I respected in my youth. Hi art is pure crap. No scientific base. Even the stuff I added had no merit to it cause I thought he would never go through with it. But then he turns around and sells this to people and makes a living off of it and I know that if you took 1 Kenpo class you would learn more there than 1 year in his class. And people are buying this!!!!! Whats sad is, that those orginizations let him in. Join there GM boards and chairrooms. And now I dont know what to believe! I have his hold art in my study, its only 10 pages long! No real creed, no philosophy, nothing. Just Rehearsed and repeated movements with no meaning that people believe will save them. I just dont understand how people can be easily swayed by that? Of course the average person cannot tell you what the difference is between Karate and Kung Fu is, but still, most if not all of these principles are just down right bad!!! I thought for awhile I was jealous, but I dont want to teach people for a living, I dont want to be known. I just want to teach. Thats it. I learn more by teaching. I think maybe thats the reason for the cockiness and "chip" issues.


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## Matt Stone (Jun 10, 2004)

Because you "create" something (and did your friend actually "create" something, or did he, like so many others, repackage the crap he already knew into a "new and improved" box?), does not make you a "grandmaster."

Being a member of a "hall of fame" is no great honor, especially when many of these organizations and associations sell their membership to anyone willing to put out the money.

Just train.  Be satisfied with that.


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

he repackaged it. Its not the honor or the glory he is getting so much, its that people actually think it works an buy it! It really kinda disrepects anyone who has learned self-defense and a MA and took time to live in it as well. I just was shocked at the fact that those who I admired would even stoop to that level of Money first, before honor. But I guess thats capitalism for ya.


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## 7starmantis (Jun 10, 2004)

So will you be competing this year at Taiji Legacy? I would love to watch you compete. What style or school do you compete with? I wouldn't hold much stock in the AAU tourneys around this area. There is usually only a handful of competitors anyways. I went my first year with my current school and came home with three medals (two silver and one bronze) and I was competing in the intermediate division against all of like 5 people. Even the AAU Nationals is poorly managed and attended in our area.


7sm


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## Matt Stone (Jun 10, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I wouldn't hold much stock in the AAU tourneys around this area. ...Even the AAU Nationals is poorly managed and attended in our area.



My teacher was the one primarily responsible for the creation of the AAU CMA program back in the early 90s.  Eventually it passed on to some other folks who had $$$ in their eyes more than anything else, and from what I gather (I haven't competed in AAU stuff since 1991 or so) it has nothing but nosedived into the dirt since then...

Sad, really.


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## RHD (Jun 10, 2004)

FasterthanDeath said:
			
		

> Yes the taji legacy the only CMA tournament that is held here in the DFW area. Hosted by jimmy wong, a very nice guy. I love those tournaments. And I do attend them every year. I feel thats how tournaments should be and they are always very very good. .




So how did you do last year?

Who is the grandmaster that you helped to create the system for and what system is it.  Is it Mike Vendrell and Yee Chuan tao?  Rob Moses and 9 "psalms" Preying Mantis?  

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Jun 18, 2004)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> My teacher was the one primarily responsible for the creation of the AAU CMA program back in the early 90s. Eventually it passed on to some other folks who had $$$ in their eyes more than anything else, and from what I gather (I haven't competed in AAU stuff since 1991 or so) it has nothing but nosedived into the dirt since then...
> 
> Sad, really.


It really is sad, its to bad that it is becoming so neglected. It could be a really great tournement if run well and judged well, and maybe organized a bit.

7sm


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## Matt Stone (Jun 18, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> It really is sad, its to bad that it is becoming so neglected. It could be a really great tournement if run well and judged well, and maybe organized a bit.
> 
> 7sm



I remember in 1990 or 1991 two prominent instructors from the West Coast showed up in Iowa for the National Championships.  When they did, one of the first things they did was to ask how much they were receiving in compensation...  They appeared less than thrilled to find out that it was on their own dime.

Another prominent instructor from north of the US was quite full of himself...  When I introduced my sister in law to him, he said "I'm So and So" in such a tone as to imply that his name alone would convey the totality of his deeds...  My sis looked at him, looked at me, looked back at him and said "Am I supposed to know you?"

Too many egos, not enough students.  I tried to get something started locally via the AAU, but the state AAU office is too concerned with their bottom line to put any effort into helping people out...  I emailed the representative about trying to act as the state rep for AAU CMA, and instead of "do this, this and then this," I was berated for not being in the AAU to begin with, told that they weren't interested in solicitations from non-AAU members, etc.  Whatever...  So WA goes without.

It was good when it first started.  I admit I really like the rules now, but I won't be participating in anything with them any time soon...


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## 7starmantis (Jun 18, 2004)

Yeah, you said it, too many egos! I think that is probably across the board in any system, but it does seem to be contributing quite largely to the decline of CMA. This is just one example, and its too bad to.

7sm


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