# Please advise re: my kid defending himself



## girlbug2 (Sep 3, 2008)

I have a six year old boy who has never had any formal martial arts training as of yet, although he has watched his older brother take Karate lessons and as a family we are very martial arts oriented. So, he has had much exposure to the concepts of martial arts and sometimes practices kicking bags and such. Anyway, he has developed a good sidekick mostly on his own.

Today at soccer practice there was a scuffle between my son and another kid on the team, "Jerry". Jerry is a special needs kid who has some sort of emotional difficulties and takes meds for it. I happened to over hear his mom mentioning that she'd forgotten to give him his meds this morning , and a few times Jerry had meltdowns and had to be carried bodily off the field by the coach for time outs. Anyway, I hadn't explained Jerry much to my son prior to today because I have only just been finding out about Jerry's condition myself. At some point, Jerry got upset with my son for something or another and I saw him running at my son in an apparent fury, intending to do who knows what, maybe hit him or tackle him or something (which he has done on other occasions). My son saw it coming and intercepted the attack with a side kick to the midsection. The coach had turned his back and didn't witness it, but the assistant coach did see what happened. Jerry fell down and started crying loudly but he wasn't coherent and my son just clammed up. Jerry was not seriously hurt as it turned out but there were cleat marks on his stomach. I think the mom assumed my kid had attacked Jerry, but she didn't directly witness it either. Jerry and his mom leave, my son gets a time out for 10 mins and then goes back into the game. The coach tells me that he understands it was self defense but my kid has to be kicked off of the team if it ever happens again.

Now I am feeling a lot of conflicting emotions about this. On the one hand, I am horrified that my kid reacted with such a high level of force to Jerry, but on the other hand there is that small part of me that is proud he defended himself so well. I had a talk with him afterward about bringing down the level of force for other kids who are smaller or weaker or special. I can't say he did wrong, but in a self defense situation it's too easy to second guess after the fact what someone should have done.  OTOH, he definitely needs real training to bring his skills under control. That may take a few years however, meanwhile what if Jerry comes at him again, how should I tell him to defend himself? 

I am not yet a black belt in my own martial art, far from  it! I have never had to deal with this before. If someone came at me like Jerry did I'd know how to defend myself against it but likely it would be with maiming force, I have not yet learned the more subtle points deflecting attacks without harming the opponent. So I really do not know how to counsel my son for this.  Suggestions? Opinions?


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## KenpoTex (Sep 3, 2008)

> I had a talk with him afterward about bringing down the level of force for other kids who are smaller or weaker or special. I can't say he did wrong, but in a self defense situation it's too easy to second guess after the fact what someone should have done. OTOH, *he definitely needs real training to bring his skills under control*.


Second guessing his actions because the other kid has problems  isn't fair to him.  I know it sounds callous but just because someone else, child or adult, may not have full control over their actions or know what they're doing (the kid who was off his meds), doesn't mean we're supposed to allow them to hurt us.  The standard is still the same...use the level of force necessary to protect yourself.

Regarding the bolded part above, I think he did *just fine*, it doesn't sound like he was excessive with his use of force.  I would tell him that you're glad he protected himself and make sure he understands that such things are _only_ to be done if he is afraid that someone is going to hurt him.  Don't make the mistake of coming down too hard on him or he might hesitate to act appropriately if there is ever a "next time."  What is it about his actions that you feel was too excessive?



> If someone came at me like Jerry did I'd know how to defend myself against it but likely it would be with maiming force, *I have not yet learned the more subtle points deflecting attacks without harming the opponent*.


  If someone is _attacking_ you, the last thing you need to be worried about is "defending without hurting the bad guy."


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## marlon (Sep 3, 2008)

two good things here in my opinion.  One a good reaction from your son to defend himself.  And, a lesson that there are consequences to our actions even if we are right (or feel we are).  nothing bad happened here.  Time to teach him the spiderman thing responsibilty and power....bla bla...but so true and important.  make sure he knows he has nothing to prove, and teach him, explain the whole situation.  Our children do not lack capacity...only teachers and teachings.  trust him to understand and grow.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## girlbug2 (Sep 3, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> Don't make the mistake of coming down too hard on him or he might hesitate to act appropriately if there is ever a "next time." What is it about his actions that you feel was too excessive?
> 
> If someone is _attacking_ you, the last thing you need to be worried about is "defending without hurting the bad guy."


 
Yes that did flash through my head right away, I didn't want to mess with his instincts for self defense so I got very quiet and let the coach do the talking (the coach seems like a smart guy, he wasn't mad at my son, but his hands are apparently tied by AYSO rules). Later my dh and I gently explained about special kids like Jerry and said to watch out for him and be prepared to yell for the coach when Jared acts up. Still, there may not be time for words if it happens again and I am worried that he'll end up hurting Jerry more the next time (but still more glad that he can protect himself).

Thanks for the reply, I did need to get the MA perspective on this, I was feeling guilty about those cleat marks on Jerry.


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## girlbug2 (Sep 3, 2008)

Marlon,

Thanks for your response. I need to be reminded of my responsibility to teach from time to time.


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## MBuzzy (Sep 3, 2008)

I'm in agreement with everyone else.  Your son did exactly what he should have done.  Just reinforce it a bit with the responsibility talk.

I did used to be involved in AYSO as a coach and ref. and I do think that the problem should be brought to the attention of the local administration.  First of all, they need to know about the problem just in case something else does happen and second, I hate to say it, but it seems like the coach needs some help controlling things if this happens frequently.  I can honestly say that with some kids....even two coaches aren't enough sometimes.  I've been called in to help with teams that needed extra eyes to keep all the kids in line.  Its not his fault, it just happens when you put that many kids from different backgrounds together in a competitive activity.


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## tsdclaflin (Sep 3, 2008)

My boys are older: 12, 15, 17. Since they were in early elementary school (and taking martial arts...17 yo is black belt now, other two are close), I have had a pre-start-of-school speech for each of them. If they are threatened at school, they have to tell a teacher. If they are trapped, they are to raise their hands, step back and say 'please stop' or something like that. They are not to threaten, IE "if you do that one more time, I will..."  They must tell the offender to stop twice.  After that, they are allowed to defend themselves.  They also know that it is public school policy that children are NOT ALLOWED to defend themselves. If they do, they will usually be disciplined.  

When my son was 16, a student attacked him--instead of defending himself (which he as done before) he chose to "hug" the attacker. The attacker then pushed him away and he escaped. The student attacker was arrested. My son got no punishment, but he told me that he would NEVER not defend himself again. Next time, he would fight back.

Know the consequences, but support your child.  Your child did the right thing.  No child should feel bullied or afraid to go to school or go to soccer practice.

And the cleat marks will fade, don't worry about it.


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## kidswarrior (Sep 3, 2008)

I wouldn't even give this a second thought, if it weren't for the unlucky fact they were wearing cleats. As a professional educator and former administrator (former, cos it's just not worth the pound of flesh), I think your son acted reasonably to protect himself. On the other hand:

1) Cleats raise the stakes, so this may present a teachable moment for all the things that can go wrong in a 'simple fight' (though how much of that a six year old will get... But, at least you could have the talk, and then maybe use reminders for the next few years. Fortunately, this was not during school.

2) As *tsdclaflin *said, the ed code (effective during school hours/events) is often stricter--usually unfairly so imho, punishing the victim as well as the abuser. I don't really have an answer for that, but tsd did a service in this area by providing the personal anecdotes.


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## shihansmurf (Sep 3, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> If someone is _attacking_ you, the last thing you need to be worried about is "defending without hurting the bad guy."



Amen!!

I would also add that the op's son was dead on correct in his response.I would be suprised if "jerry" were to attempt that with the op's son a second time. We all learn boundaries, sometimes those lessons are less pleasant than others.

My son is an ADDHD kid that has occasional violent outbursts.I hold him accountable for his actions, and I feel that if he attacks another kid and that kid pops him a good one then I think that he will have learned a valuable lesson.I certainly wouldn't blame the other kid for defending himself.

Mark


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## Tez3 (Sep 3, 2008)

I think your son did well! However I have problems with a mother who '_forgets_' to give her son meds that he obviously needs! It maybe that her son isn't responsible for his actions though that's no consolation if you are the one he's attacking especially if you're only 6, but she's most certainly responsible for his actions if she's the cause of him having these violent outbursts by not giving him his medication. We all forget things but that is of such primary importance I doubt many would forget.
Being a bit tongue in cheek here (but only a bit!) teach him moves which don't leave marks! More seriously, he has good reactions and did only what was necessary so nice work. (Am secretly jealous as I find side kick so hard even after 18 years)


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## jks9199 (Sep 4, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I think your son did well! However I have problems with a mother who '_forgets_' to give her son meds that he obviously needs! It maybe that her son isn't responsible for his actions though that's no consolation if you are the one he's attacking especially if you're only 6, but she's most certainly responsible for his actions if she's the cause of him having these violent outbursts by not giving him his medication. We all forget things but that is of such primary importance I doubt many would forget.
> Being a bit tongue in cheek here (but only a bit!) teach him moves which don't leave marks! More seriously, he has good reactions and did only what was necessary so nice work. (Am secretly jealous as I find side kick so hard even after 18 years)


I'm with Tez, for the most part.

My first problem is with the mother who "forgot" her kid's apparently VERY necessary meds, thereby endangering other kids on the soccer team and creating problems.

My second problem is with the coaches.  I can see allowing one meltdown... but after the second, the kid's not able to practice that day.  You can't tell me that these practices go on for several hours...

My final problem is with *girlbug2*.  We're talking 6-year olds.  Her posts read like she's thinking that she can simply "explain" misbehavior and her son will never have another problem.  He did the right thing here; he protected himself from an imminent attack.  He needs to be told that.  And he does need to be told that some kids misbehave -- but that doesn't mean he should learn to be a punching bag.  Personally -- if they told me that my kid (hypothetical; I don't have any) was in danger of being kicked off the team for protecting himself when the coaches and the other kid's parents had failed in their duties to protect him... I'd have someone's head.  Had he simply tucked his shoulder and tackled the kid first, would he be facing the same consequences?  Or is it only because he left a mark...  There are lots of things that could have been done which wouldn't have left cleat marks -- but would have caused much worse injury.


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## Tez3 (Sep 4, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I'm with Tez, for the most part.
> 
> My first problem is with the mother who "forgot" her kid's apparently VERY necessary meds, thereby endangering other kids on the soccer team and creating problems.
> 
> ...


 
Absolutely, it's all spot on.
I can't understand why if the coaches know this child they didn't say that if he didn't have his meds he should go home. It's unfair to all the children including him, I imagine if he's prone to sudden rages it's upsetting to him as well, much better he went home even though he missed the session.


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## girlbug2 (Sep 4, 2008)

Short update:

The coach called earlier and told me that the association ruled so far that nobody will be kicked off of the team, but that representatives will be sent to watch this Saturday's game and the practices next week. It is implied that they will be watching for signs of Jerry's behavior to see if he indeed has problems and attacks other kids, but also to see if my son is aggressive. So it isn't settled yet, but next week they may come to a final decision about all this.

Privately the coach said he believes Jerry is a problem that should have been removed before this and that his parents, when registering Jerry, claimed on the form that he was not taking any medications and had no conditions which to the best of their knowledge would affect his ability to be a part of the team. So in other words, is this what they call perjory? 

Coach also told me that Jerry's dad is getting really riled up and calling for _my_ son to be kicked off! This is all just too unbelievable for me. How would he feel if his kid was attacked by someone else on the team, would he tell his son he shouldn't defend himself??

To tell you all the truth, I really liked Jerry's mom up until now. She is one of those outgoing charismatic people that becomes instantly popular, she jumped right in and volunteered  to be Team Mom and has been doing a great job of it. I was looking forward to getting to know her and the other parents. OTOH I am the quiet shy type who is by my own admission slow to come out of my shell. When Jerry's mom got home from practice today she apparently called the other parents and persuaded some of them to rally with her to get my son off of the team. I can't help but feel that this is escalating as badly as it is because she is popular and well-liked and I'm relatively unknown by the others as of yet. This really should have been a cut and dried "kids will be kids, oh well, we all learned a lesson didn't we" thing, but is now being dragged out. It can only end  with one of the boys leaving the team and a lot of hurt feelings on all sides. This kind of thing reminds me why I am not usually a "joiner".

Thanks to all who have replied, I do feel better for having been able to talk about self defense issues with calm and rational people. I will post next week how this all ends up turning out. Hopefully both kids will be on their best behaviors and there won't be any further reason for any self defense, but even so, I hate the way this season is getting off to a start!


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## chinto (Sep 4, 2008)

ok, here is my take.. its worth what you payed for it.. but here it is...

One:   He, your son did just fine, and was justified in stopping the attack. After all its not as if from what you reported that he then proceded to stomp on the attacker or some other counter attack, but just stopped it with a side kick...  I would inform the coach that no one has to allow themselves to be attacked and injured by any one. This includes mentally troubled and other wise not in control of them selves attackers. 

Two: I would get him some formal training as it will help him be able to titrate the amount of force used better and more easily.

and Last :  if the 'team coach' can not understand that your son has a right to self defense and safety, well then I would get him out of that any way!  If any thing I would sa that the coach should be looking into the meds and weather the child who is on them is able to participate in the sport and on the team safely.  ( I have all the simpathy in the world for the kid who has the problem, but no one should have to be injured becouse of that fact!  I would also explain that to the coach too. )


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## Brian S (Sep 4, 2008)

Your son had every right to do what he did. There should be no consequences and the coaches and mother of Jerry need a good sidekick themselves.


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## KenpoTex (Sep 4, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> when registering Jerry, claimed on the form that he was not taking any medications and had no conditions which to the best of their knowledge would affect his ability to be a part of the team. So in other words, is this what they call perjory?


 It wouldn't be perjury in a literal sense, but they definitely lied.  




			
				girlbug2 said:
			
		

> Coach also told me that Jerry's dad is getting really riled up and calling for _my_ son to be kicked off! This is all just too unbelievable for me. How would he feel if his kid was attacked by someone else on the team, would he tell his son he shouldn't defend himself??
> 
> ...When Jerry's mom got home from practice today she apparently called the other parents and persuaded some of them to rally with her to get my son off of the team. I can't help but feel that this is escalating as badly as it is because she is popular and well-liked and I'm relatively unknown by the others as of yet. This really should have been a cut and dried "kids will be kids, oh well, we all learned a lesson didn't we" thing, but is now being dragged out. It can only end with one of the boys leaving the team and a lot of hurt feelings on all sides. This kind of thing reminds me why I am not usually a "joiner".


 You might want to start doing some networking yourself to get some of the other parents on your side (needless to say, don't be hateful towards the Jerry's mom).  
If you really care about keeping him on the team, you might have a lawyer contact the association and have a little chat with them regarding the incident and the dishonesty of the parents when their child was enrolled.  That should be enough to take care of the problem.

edit to add: you also may want to consider taking a video camera to record the practices/games so that in the event something like this happens again, you'll have a record of who did what to whom.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 4, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> I have a six year old boy who has never had any formal martial arts training as of yet, although he has watched his older brother take Karate lessons and as a family we are very martial arts oriented. So, he has had much exposure to the concepts of martial arts and sometimes practices kicking bags and such. Anyway, he has developed a good sidekick mostly on his own.
> 
> Today at soccer practice there was a scuffle between my son and another kid on the team, "Jerry". Jerry is a special needs kid who has some sort of emotional difficulties and takes meds for it. I happened to over hear his mom mentioning that she'd forgotten to give him his meds this morning , and a few times Jerry had meltdowns and had to be carried bodily off the field by the coach for time outs. Anyway, I hadn't explained Jerry much to my son prior to today because I have only just been finding out about Jerry's condition myself. At some point, Jerry got upset with my son for something or another and I saw him running at my son in an apparent fury, intending to do who knows what, maybe hit him or tackle him or something (which he has done on other occasions). My son saw it coming and intercepted the attack with a side kick to the midsection. The coach had turned his back and didn't witness it, but the assistant coach did see what happened. Jerry fell down and started crying loudly but he wasn't coherent and my son just clammed up. Jerry was not seriously hurt as it turned out but there were cleat marks on his stomach. I think the mom assumed my kid had attacked Jerry, but she didn't directly witness it either. Jerry and his mom leave, my son gets a time out for 10 mins and then goes back into the game. The coach tells me that he understands it was self defense but my kid has to be kicked off of the team if it ever happens again.
> 
> ...


 
So your son is supposed to be a punch dummy because Jerry's mom can't control his meds?


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## Drac (Sep 4, 2008)

We are raising a generation of punching bags thanks to these asinine rules. My Grandson was suspended for 2 days for defending himself, and all he did was push the kid off of him...When this fat blond girl  picked on my step daughter from my marrage because of her Hispanic looks the school was made aware of it and spoke to the aggresor, which only made the attacks increase..

So I spent a weekend teaching her responses to how the bully would  commonly attack..Come Monday this girl attacked and my step daughter beat this girls butt, and the bullying *STOPPED...*


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## morph4me (Sep 4, 2008)

I agree with everything that's been posted. Your son did what he had to do and stopped, that's to be commended. The fact that Jerry is a "special needs" kid and requires medication doesn't mean that your sone or anyone else should be a target. Jerry's mother forgot his meds? Good thing the kid doesn't have diabetes or something equally dangerous, he could be dead now. Your son needs for you to be an advocate for him, I'd be in touch with the governing comittee and bring my case to them. He should also learn to kick with the side of his foot so he doesn't leave cleat marks :wink:. I think that he and Jerry will end up forgetting the whole thing while Jerry's parents are going on and on about it.


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## kidswarrior (Sep 4, 2008)

A couple of OT points for girlbug2:


girlbug2 said:


> To tell you all the truth, I really liked Jerry's mom up until now. She is one of those outgoing charismatic people that becomes instantly popular, she jumped right in and volunteered  to be Team Mom and has been doing a great job of it. I was looking forward to getting to know her and the other parents. OTOH I am the quiet shy type who is by my own admission slow to come out of my shell.


Don't feel bad about being who you are. 'Instantly popular' might be great in high school, but in life it counts for exactly nothing. It's a silly, self-serving notion that everyone should be 'outgoing', or bow and scrape to those who are. Don't run yourself down, even in your own mind, and especially not now when your son needs you to be his advocate.



> When Jerry's mom got home from practice today she apparently called the other parents and persuaded some of them to rally with her to get my son off of the team. I can't help but feel that this is escalating as badly as it is because she is popular and well-liked and I'm relatively unknown by the others as of yet.


Why didn't she call you, instead? No, she called others _about _you and your son, which I would term action 'behind your back'. I'd say she is trying to use her personality to rally an outcry and so bully the decision makers into a corner, and get things to come out her way. That's not outgoing, that's self promoting (specifically maybe to cover up her poor parenting skills). Don't admire ths woman, or her loudmouth husband. I'm not saying hate them. I'm saying that just as in a physical confrontation, you have to keep your space and balance (not let the aggressor take it and unbalance you), so too here.


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## punisher73 (Sep 4, 2008)

I think your son did a fine job of defending himself and protecting the other kid from further injury.

You need to stand up for your kid's rights and the rights of the other kids to be able to attend there and be safe.  Yes, accidents happen in a sporting event, but they shouldn't have to worry about being injured from another kid who has violent outbursts.  

You had mentioned that it has happened before, I would talk with those parents and get statements from them and get them to commit to talking with the board as well to show that this is an ongoing problem with this other kid.

That leads me to wonder, your son was threatened to be removed from the team if it happened again....why hasn't Jerry been removed already since it keeps happening?  This is the part that gets me, the way the laws are, if Jerry is labeled as learning or emotionally disabled and they get someone to show that his behavior was a "manifestation" of it, then he pretty much gets a free pass.  I see it all the time here, a kid will assault a teacher and instead of expulsion he/she is allowed to remain in the school because it was just a "manifestation" and they couldn't help it.

As far as Jerry's mother, shame on her and her husband.  It is tragic to have a child with mental/emotional problems but instead of covering them up, bring them up and educate people what it means and how to help Jerry out so that everyone can have fun and understand his behavior.  All Jerry's parents are doing is setting the stage for their son to be ostracized as he gets older.


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## girlbug2 (Sep 4, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> So your son is supposed to be a punch dummy because Jerry's mom can't control his meds?


 
No of course not. 

I have thought about this some more after reading all the responses and talking with my husband; I do believe my son did the right thing and hopefully the other parents can be made to see that. The fact is that the only three eyewitnesses to the event -- myself, the assistant coach, and one other dad who was playing on the field at the time -- all agree on what happened, should be all that is required, but if they want to send reps to observe, they're going to see all they need to see about Jerry's usual disruptive and combative behavior with the other kids on the team, and hopefully that will be the end of it. 

I can understand that Jerry's mom is emotional about her kid getting a big bruise on his stomach, but really, she has herself to blame for the situation in the long run. Scapegoating my son or anybody else that Jerry tangles with isn't going to solve their problems. I wish that family all the best, but IMO they should never have signed Jerry up for the regular AYSO, there is a "VIP" AYSO apparently that he could have played on, given his condition.

My son has been told that he reacted correctly, he will not be in trouble, and that's all.

Now I'm just praying that when the reps show up to watch, everybody will be on their usual behavior. That will tell them everything they need to know to make the right decision.

Peace to you all.


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## morph4me (Sep 4, 2008)

I bet if Jerry's mother knows the reps will be there she won't forget his medication that day.


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## Drac (Sep 4, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> I can understand that Jerry's mom is emotional about her kid getting a big bruise on his stomach, but really, she has herself to blame for the situation in the long run. .


 
She would *REALLY* be emotional if her kid would have injuried someone and she would up in court...


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## arnisador (Sep 4, 2008)

If it were my son I'd remind him that the cleats can cause damage/scars and that he needs to be cognizant of that fact, but overall I'd praise him. I wouldn't want to paint a child with medical concerns affecting his mental health as a "bad guy" but I'd emphasize my son's right to defend himself. Then I'd sit on the coach for not providing a safe environment.

I wouldn't want to see the other kid excluded from sports unless it's necessary...and in this case it sounds like it's probably necessary.


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## Tez3 (Sep 4, 2008)

girlbug, your posts have brought back horrible memories of being at school and having people ganging up against me because of someone's say so. I know exactly how you feel and that sort of horrible helplessness you feel when people won't believe or listen to you but rather the person who's making the most noise.Sometimes it's lousy to be morally right and have people against you. 
I think the other mothers will know that you are right and hopefully will have the commonsense and guts to say so. One things is for sure, if your son is removed from the team the problem doesn't go away, they still have to cope with a child who attacks the other children and is difficult to cope with!
I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you and your son, he sounds a canny lad!


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## Drac (Sep 4, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> One things is for sure, if your son is removed from the team the problem doesn't go away, they still have to cope with a child who attacks the other children and is difficult to cope with!


 
Well said Tez3..There is an ongoing controversy over here concerning a special needs child on "meds" that has acted up in church..Other members are fearful that they will be hurt...Seems he has acted up violently during Mass...


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## thardey (Sep 4, 2008)

First - kudos to your son for being able to stand his ground, and then stop when the threat is over - for a six-year old, that's pretty impressive. (Actually, it's pretty impressive for anybody!)


Second, don't get caught up in the rumor mill - the more you react to it, the more fuel you add to the fire. However, something does need to me done. I would go directly to the administration myself, hopefully before the reps come to visit. You don't have to broadcast that fact, either, just do it.

There's two proverbs that are coming to mind: one goes "Without fuel, a fire dies out, without gossip, a quarrel dies down." And another is "When a man comes forward with a complaint, his case seems right, until another comes forward to question him."

That is, don't just let the coach be the only one to talk to the higher-ups. Even if he is the most honorable, upright guy, he's still only able to say what he saw, and he is going to protect himself and his team first and foremost. You saw what happened, and you're there to protect your son. You don't have to be forceful, and charismatic, just calm and determined.

There's another saying, "**** rolls downhill." That is, the other parents will accept the decision of those in authority, because they're in authority. That will serve as the best defense of your son's character, and yours. Let them take the heat for the decision, that's their job.


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## 7starmarc (Sep 4, 2008)

I agree with most of what has been posted. Kudos to your son overall. A warning about how much cleats can hurt.

I would avoid any direct conversation/confrontation with the parents. Parents hate being told that their child is causing problems. Avoid speaking too much with other parents as well, except those who were direct witnesses of the event.

I agree with speaking to the ruling body yourself. Consider filing a counter-complaint regarding the disruptive, potentially violent, behavior of the boy (it may be too late for this).

What really gets me is the attitude that so many parents take nowadays about supervising their own children. They come to parks, parties, and other people's houses and let them run wild, preferring to socialize over monitoring behaviors. Particularly if that child has a known behavior issue. It is inexcusable, IMO, that she did not see the incident, it means that she wasn't watching her unmedicated, special needs child. The coach is there to run a structured practice and teach skills, not babysit a disruptive child. The coach should not be putting the child in "time out" at this age (aside from instructing the child to leave practice and go to their parent), the parent should be stepping in. Later, coach discipline is fine (push ups, situps, laps, whatever) because older children can be counted on to do the penance and understand the message. Some six year olds would respond to this, many won't.


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## Empty Hands (Sep 4, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> The coach tells me that he understands it was self defense but my kid has to be kicked off of the team if it ever happens again.



Zero tolerance for the loss!



girlbug2 said:


> When Jerry's mom got home from practice today she apparently called the other parents and persuaded some of them to rally with her to get my son off of the team.



I really hate people sometimes.  Way to take out your emotional issues on 6 year olds!


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## Nolerama (Sep 4, 2008)

Does your son even like soccer? Sounds to me like he would do well in an MA class.

BTW, Jerry's mom made it clear that she created a liability when she stated, aloud, that she forgot his meds that day. Therefore, she's knowledgeable of the situation, allowed a liability to affect other kids, and even went as far as allowing Jerry to attack your son (parents are responsible for their kids' actions) puts her in a bad place legally.

I hate to put it this way, but it's like saying you have a dog, and mention to your peers that this dog just got bit by a rabid squirrel. Your dog attacks someone, and YOU sue/petition/rally against the attacked? That won't fly in court. You're responsible.

Jerry's mom is responsible for the entire situation by not giving her kid his medication.

If your son gets kicked off the team, good riddance to a bad group of suburbanites; but I'm sure you can file a case with whatever governing body that your soccer kids are part of. Heck, you have definite grounds to get Jerry off the team. I'm sure there's someone out there that filmed the situation.

It's about the kids, their safety, and their growth as athletes. It's not a popularity contest between parents.


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## Andy Moynihan (Sep 4, 2008)

First off--Kudos to your son for getting done what needed doing and only what needed doing.

Second, kudos to you for standing by him.

Third--if you have the financial means available, contact an attorney because you have a very winnable lawsuit should the administration and Jerry's mom choose not to See The Light And Come To Jesus/Buddha/The Flying Spaghetti Monster/pick your favorite.

Fourth--following on the point about cleats and damaging techniques--As soon as you can find a school that will take him at his age, get him enrolled in Judo.

I am not placing a "value judgment" on the validity of any martial art, but I find Judo very well suited to the kind of things kids will realistically encounter growing up:It's wrestling, and little apes love to wrestle. You learn to fall. Most people never get in a fight, but everyone falls down. It wears them out. It's great exercise and does wonders for balance and coordination. It develops fighting spirit in a good way without risking the same damage that  a full contact strking art might at that point in life. . Striking is bad for young unfused bones and can lead to permanent joint problems in ways that grappling just doesn't( I wish I'd known this as a kid so maybe my shoulders wouldn't click nowadays every so often). It works just fine for schoolyard troubles with a lot less chance for accidental injury than kicking some kid in the head. Little Special Jerry is off his meds and decides to take on the world? take him down and slap a kesagatame on him until he calms down or the teachers can break it up--Jerry's not going anywhere but the hold does no actual *damage*.


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## celtic_crippler (Sep 4, 2008)

Sounds to me like the coach is thinking of kicking the wrong kid off the team.


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## BLACK LION (Sep 4, 2008)

I would take him out for ice cream... he is on the right path... forget about what others think and say... your childs safety is paramount... 

hey l;ook on the bright side...if they kick him off the soccer team... more time to train in martial arts...  its a win win  

I agree with kenpotex in his first post....


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## astrobiologist (Sep 4, 2008)

Sounds like everyone is pretty much on the same page here.  Your son acted appropriately for his age and understanding of the world.  As a young kid I dropped a few when called for.  The rules and policies in the American education system are ridiculous.  The ACLU has done a lot to protect our rights, but they've also done a lot to put our children in danger in the name of "fairness".

While talking with Master Iain Abernethy at a seminar, he mentioned how in the UK as long as a person had reasonable belief that they were going to be attacked, they will usually not have any trouble with the law.  Here in the United States of America, we have to be afraid to defend ourselves in so many situations; ya, and they call that "fair"...

On another note, I really am worried about Jerry's parents.  I've met a lot of children who are said to be ADD/ADHD or who have so-called special needs and are on a boatload of medication, but when I've met their parents it hits me like a bat to the head: it's the parents who are screwing the kid up!  So many parents think that handing the kid his medication and then sitting him in front of the television or computer is actually good parenting.  I'm not saying ADD/ADHD aren't real problems for some, but I definitely think that there are way too many misdiagnosed children on drugs who just need their parents to pay attention.  

It may be that Jerry's parents are going to become a pain in the butt for you.  This may just settle out (fingers crossed for those who are superstitious), but I would definitely watch for Jerry's parents.  Blaming your son and getting him in trouble may be their way of reinforcing their son's bad habits and of relieving themselves from any feelings of guilt.  I'm not saying you should lower yourself to any scheming or drama, but just remember that there are many people out there who don't understand honor, humility, or integrity...


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## chinto (Sep 4, 2008)

Drac said:


> Well said Tez3..There is an ongoing controversy over here concerning a special needs child on "meds" that has acted up in church..Other members are fearful that they will be hurt...Seems he has acted up violently during Mass...



once again I am sure there is some controversy.. but my answer would be to the pastor and all .." if he acts up violently and threatens me or mine I will stop him, and not worry about his "special needs".  ..  

now as to the kid on the team .. the same response. I would tell the coach, and other mothers that my kid is not a punching bag. and make it clear  you will make a real fight and stink over it.  I would also aproch the 'special needs' kids mother and tell her the same thing. enough is enough.


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## Lynne (Sep 5, 2008)

Both boys could be kicked off of the team.  I'd raise heck.  I wouldn't let it go.  

It could be that only your son may be kicked off.  Sometimes, the good lose and it's a tough lesson.  And I'd definitely raise heck.

This is a good opportunity to teach your son martial virtue.  We must stand up for what is right with courage and honor.  We defend ourselves with honor.  It doesn't mean we will be understood, but personally we win because we did the right thing.

Thank goodness your son stopped the attack.  I hate to think what an out-of-control kid could have done to your son.


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## celtic_crippler (Sep 5, 2008)

Why the hell is this "Jerry" kid's behavior tolerated? 

If he's truely a "Special Needs" child why is he involved in standard school programs? 

I'm no doctor, but I'd put money on the fact that he probabaly needs more discipline at home more than he needs meds. Based on the point that his mother "forgot to give him his meds" it's apparent that she's not the most responsible parent on the planet so it's not a huge leap to assume that he's not recieving proper discipline at home. 

I'm personally sick and tired of America depending on pharmaceuticals to solve thier problems and control behavior. It's utter BS and laziness.


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## Lynne (Sep 5, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> Why the hell is this "Jerry" kid's behavior tolerated?
> 
> If he's truely a "Special Needs" child why is he involved in standard school programs?
> 
> ...


 
Yes, something stinks regards the mother forgetting to give her child his medication.  How could she forget that?  Ok, it could happen, rushing to practice and all.  But you apologize to everyone and leave after the first unruly incident.

Maybe he really isn't a special needs child.  Maybe he's a undisciplined pain-in-the-backside with loads of energy.  Some kids are "kinetic" (not solely sure I buy that theory) learners and really don't do well in classrooms where they have to sit down.  They get medicated instead of disciplined.  I know one kid can disrupt an entire class but there has to be a better way.  And it starts at home.

(I'm not denying there are children who need medication, that ADD or ADHD exist.  I think it can be an excuse to let a child be undisciplined for those parents who are unwilling to parent.)


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## shesulsa (Sep 5, 2008)

Wow.

First of all, let's all just stop pretending that meds are Magic Pills that Cure Bad Behavior. Because they're not. Mkay?

We don't know if "Jerry" wasn't on meds when he was registered and then placed on them later - certainly possible, I registered my child for football in MAY, three months before the season. My older boy's meds have changed about six times in that period.

Meds get played with - dosages, time given, with or without food, to see if the effectiveness of the purpose of the drug and perhaps minimization of side effects can be capitalized.

So ... faulting "Jerry's" mom for the meds thing is rather moot as we really can't know all the particulars and there really are more facets to the medication issue than the black and white 'give it or don't give it' dichotomy.

It sounds to me like Jerry's parents are (probably unbeknownst to them) using Jerry's disability to manipulate other parents into a sympathetic and most likely incorrect position.  And THAT *is* wrong.

It's also wrong for the kicking boy to have to feel bad about what he did and why or to be punished for defending himself.  He's six years old and what a strange place to be in life for a child. The need to protect oneself and maintain stature is there but the nuances behind self-defense will come with maturity, of which any six year old has little.

He acted instinctively and I would absolutely defend it to him and for him.  

An alternative to finding out which boy has to leave the team is a behavioral plan for "Jerry."  Someone uninvolved emotionally needs to be there to intervene and aide Jerry such that he learns appropriate behavior consistently with the understanding by his teammates that he is learning to behave appropriately through exposure.  It's gotta be a team effort - and that, my friends, would be the perfect potential solution to the problem.  Will it happen? Unlikely.

I would also look into training for your son, but if this particular issue is a sensitive one for you - and it really should be for everyone - you'll need an instructor who cares about contain and control without devastation but will teach the need for devastation and its appropriate timing in a manner that is not "Kill them all and let God sort them out."  This is important for him as well as you and just makes good sense socially, especially as he develops.  

I would honestly recommend judo or aikido as they involve turning an opponent instead of beating the crap out of them.  You can learn that anywhere - and you/he probably should ... but as a core focus, it's tough to beat turning your opponent. It's a skill that is beneficial in virtually every sport.

Best wishes to you and your boy and ... you're doing a great job by asking a tough question. 

:asian:


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## Brian King (Sep 5, 2008)

Girlbug2
I think that you have received a lot of good advice and intelligent opinions so I do not see the need to offer my own in regards to the original subject of how to counsel your son, you seem to have good instincts, are not afraid to ask advice and I am sure that you will do well.

That said, I do have a view of the situation that I do not think has been addressed on this thread and think that it might be thought provoking for you especially and others as well.

I do not know you, your husband or your family so what I am saying is pointed broadly and generally and not towards your family or you specifically. 

Within the military it is generally accepted that not all warriors are created equally. Within the units and teams there are always a few that will do more than others and do it better. Warriors can be made but born warriors are into a class by themselves. Reading your original post reminded me of this fact and the issues that it brings up. In todays society true warriors have a difficult path and will face many challenges and it will only get more challenging in the future. Girlbug2 you know your son and you can decide for yourself on what his character is/will be and MOST important how you want to shape it. As difficult as it may be to look at the child today and see the man of tomorrow I believe that you owe it to your son and to yourself to do so. What kind of man do you want your son to be? Do you want a Alan Alda sensitive man, one in touch with his feelings and ready to and willing to cry at the slightest urging, or do you want a man that sees strength as being silent and tough holding his feelings and emotions in check to only be examined in private using the two extremes as examples? In reality most men have a little of both with one or the other being more prominent in their make-up. It is important Girlbug2 to decide that now and get it in your head so that you can help guide the boy into manhood. 
What does that mean to you (in my opinion)? It means that if you want him to be the sensitive type you will need to practice and start the influence right away. The male models in his life should reflect that type of male understanding. The sports and hobbies that he participates should build upon the traits that you see as important. This is in my opinion much more important for a young man that tends toward the stereotypical warrior/protector man type due to the stigma that modern society tries to place upon the type. If your son tends toward this type he will need a lot of guidance and patience and understanding. Importantly and why I am writing this post is that you girlbug2 will need much more patience than you can even imagine at this moment. Your boy will do things that you will have no idea of why he chose to do them and he will not be able to articulate why himself. You will have to decide in advance to support him in his decisions and actions even when others will point and blame. He may be a fighter and if so he will fight. There will be consequences of his being willing to stand up and lay his enemies before him. He will get into conflicts and battles and will not always understand or able to articulate why but will only know that it needed to be done and he did it. Those consequences might be his getting kicked off of a team, in trouble at school, and a minimum of good friends in his young life. As a parent of a warrior/protector you will need to come to the conclusion early on that the consequences fair or not (and most will be unfair) be damned his actions are worth it and you will have to help him understand that sometimes the cost of taking a stand must be paid and the benefits may not appear for years and years if ever. As the parent of a warrior/protector you will need to guide him to put his instincts to a higher service otherwise he may find himself fighting merely for the sake of fighting. 

The rewards will be few but deep. He will be able to look into the mirror and be ok with what he sees. He will be able to look other men in the eyes and have them value the looking. He will be looked to in time of trouble and will be stronger for it and if lucky and blessed he will find a mate that not only understands but values his abilities and character and able to support him and appreciated and need his support. He will live his nature and make the world a better place for doing so.

Anyway a few thoughts and perhaps a glimpse into the future

Warmest regards
Brian King


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 5, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> I think your son did a fine job of defending himself and protecting the other kid from further injury.
> 
> You need to stand up for your kid's rights and the rights of the other kids to be able to attend there and be safe.  Yes, accidents happen in a sporting event, but they shouldn't have to worry about being injured from another kid who has violent outbursts.
> 
> ...



I think they're probably afraid of Jerry's mother as she uses his 'special needs' status as a bludgeon with the threat of a 'lawsuit' for 'discrimination' for holding him to the same standards of behavior as everyone else.


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## Tez3 (Sep 5, 2008)

It's a pity you don't play rugby over there. I know you think soccer is a gentler game than your American football but here 'soccer' ( football to us lol) is known as a game of gentlemen played by thugs while rugby is a game of thugs played by gentlemen. Rugby is by far the superior game, you can laugh all you want at cricket too but it's invaluable for teaching youngsters how to 'play the game' in life. It's no accident that all our great leaders, warriors and notable people don't play soccer they play rugby and cricket!


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 5, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> Sounds to me like the coach is thinking of kicking the wrong kid off the team.


 In this litigious society kicking her son off the team is 'safer' than kicking the 'special needs' kid off the team.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 5, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> Short update:
> 
> The coach called earlier and told me that the association ruled so far that nobody will be kicked off of the team, but that representatives will be sent to watch this Saturday's game and the practices next week. It is implied that they will be watching for signs of Jerry's behavior to see if he indeed has problems and attacks other kids, but also to see if my son is aggressive. So it isn't settled yet, but next week they may come to a final decision about all this.
> 
> ...


 
Time to play devil's advocate...in a bit.

First, let me explain myself, I am an educator and I've taught some of the hardest children you can imagine.  Those kids had hearts of gold, but you wouldn't believe the kinds of problems they ended up in.

I'm going to tone down my criticism to just this one question.  *How do you know that Jerry has a problem?*

I'll be honest with you.  I can't tell you how many threads, phone calls, emails, that I've gotten from parents and I know they are trying to defend their child to the death, but...

...the other side always creeps through.

Pardon me for being cynical.  George Carlin said that every cynic was a disappointed idealist.

I love it when people prove George wrong...


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## shesulsa (Sep 5, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> *How do you know that Jerry has a problem?*



Good question.  Sounds like this isn't the first time Jerry has acted out.  I'm curious how the other children on the team handle the situation?



> Pardon me for being cynical.  George Carlin said that every cynic was a disappointed idealist.
> 
> I love it when people prove George wrong...


Perhaps we incorrectly use "cynic" (a noun) in situations where we probably should use "jaded" (an adjective).  Neither attractive in any sense, and as much as I'd like to turn the other cheek, cynicism seems to be the best thing I can throw out there.  But I think the more appropriate term to use is "jaded."

As for Carlin, I think most of us are cynical to some degree if his definition stands.


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## jks9199 (Sep 5, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> Time to play devil's advocate...in a bit.
> 
> First, let me explain myself, I am an educator and I've taught some of the hardest children you can imagine.  Those kids had hearts of gold, but you wouldn't believe the kinds of problems they ended up in.
> 
> ...


I don't care if Jerry is diagnosed or not, or with what.  Maybe the only "med" forgotten that morning was his daily vitamin.

Based on what's given -- Jerry ABSOLUTELY had a behavioral problem on that day.  It shouldn't have been tolerated.  The first meltdown should have been met with an appropriate discipline.  A second or subsequent meltdown should have been the clue to Jerry's mother, the coaches, and all the other parents present that the kid didn't belong on the practice field that day.

It's that simple.

The rest of the situation stems from that breakdown in responsibility, in that order.


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## Guardian (Sep 7, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I'm with Tez, for the most part.
> 
> My first problem is with the mother who "forgot" her kid's apparently VERY necessary meds, thereby endangering other kids on the soccer team and creating problems.
> 
> ...


 
I agree here, the kids mother is at fault for this.  She forgot to give him his meds.  She should be talked to.  Your son did what he had to.


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## Brian S (Sep 7, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I don't care if Jerry is diagnosed or not, or with what. Maybe the only "med" forgotten that morning was his daily vitamin.
> 
> Based on what's given -- Jerry ABSOLUTELY had a behavioral problem on that day. It shouldn't have been tolerated. The first meltdown should have been met with an appropriate discipline. A second or subsequent meltdown should have been the clue to Jerry's mother, the coaches, and all the other parents present that the kid didn't belong on the practice field that day.
> 
> ...


 

 ditto


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## Makalakumu (Sep 8, 2008)

Maybe the LEOs will on this board will back me up on this, but, from my experience, when I hear a story that portrays some version of events, I automatically go to skepticism.

In my experience, I have heard stories of the same event where you swear that the tellers of the story aren't even in the same universe, much less sharing the same monent in spacetime.

The way that people interpret events is always suspect.


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## jks9199 (Sep 8, 2008)

Absolutely.  I don't know that the OP's kid was an angel.  However, the overall reaction as described does support that Jerry was being disruptive on that day at that time -- and it doesn't seem like it was the first time.

And, really, what would have been gained by questioning the OP?  The question was good, and the points raised have been interesting.


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## girlbug2 (Sep 10, 2008)

Hello all,

Here is the update I promised last week:

Saturday's game went very well, the kids played a good game and ended up winning. Jerry and his parents were no shows.

At the two practices this week, Jerry was also absent. One of the other moms mentioned that she is taking over the duties of team mom now and asked for a little help with some of them. In general people seemed to be reluctant to talk about Jerry and his parents, but I gather that they decided to withdraw. I did not enquire further for details, I am just glad this seems to have been resolved at last! 

It's strange but I think the other parents are more friendly now. I have talked to a few of them and the general attitude is that we are all pulling together for the sake of helping our kids have a great season. The kids continue to practice and improve and in general seem to be learning about the concept of teamwork. We are now short one player and it seems that everybody's contribution is valued all the more. That alone makes this all worthwhile IMO.

I hope Jerry can eventually find a situation in life where he is able to play sports and do everything else kids want to do. I do feel sorry that he was surely disappointed with everything that happened and having to leave after practicing for weeks. Best wishes to him and his mom.

Thanks also to everybody who took the time to reply and advise me. I have a lot of things to think about and look into regarding the futures of my children and my own role in educating them. Blessings to you all.


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## girlbug2 (Sep 10, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I think the other mothers will know that you are right and hopefully will have the commonsense and guts to say so. One things is for sure, if your son is removed from the team the problem doesn't go away, they still have to cope with a child who attacks the other children and is difficult to cope with!


 
Yes apparently the other parents must have felt the same way as you because the voting for my son to get removed from the team never materialized. If any of them agreed with Jerry's mom, they have yet to express it openly. 

Now that the team has been to two practices with nobody disrupting them with meltdowns and picking fights, it is amazing how smoothly the practices have proceeded! The coach can actually coach now, lol!


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## girlbug2 (Sep 10, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> Does your son even like soccer? Sounds to me like he would do well in an MA class.....
> 
> 
> It's about the kids, their safety, and their growth as athletes. It's not a popularity contest between parents.


 
He seems to like almost anything that lets him run around. And after this, I'm certain he'd do well in MA :redface:

You are very right about that, it is not about us parents at all. We sometimes forget that. Thank you.


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## girlbug2 (Sep 10, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Fourth--following on the point about cleats and damaging techniques--As soon as you can find a school that will take him at his age, get him enrolled in Judo.
> 
> I am not placing a "value judgment" on the validity of any martial art, but I find Judo very well suited to the kind of things kids will realistically encounter growing up:It's wrestling, and little apes love to wrestle. You learn to fall. Most people never get in a fight, but everyone falls down. It wears them out. It's great exercise and does wonders for balance and coordination. It develops fighting spirit in a good way without risking the same damage that a full contact strking art might at that point in life. . Striking is bad for young unfused bones and can lead to permanent joint problems in ways that grappling just doesn't( I wish I'd known this as a kid so maybe my shoulders wouldn't click nowadays every so often). It works just fine for schoolyard troubles with a lot less chance for accidental injury than kicking some kid in the head. Little Special Jerry is off his meds and decides to take on the world? take him down and slap a kesagatame on him until he calms down or the teachers can break it up--Jerry's not going anywhere but the hold does no actual *damage*.


 
That is the first time anybody's suggested Judo and you know, I'm ashamed that I hadn't thought of it myself. D'oh! Just the other day my boys were wrestling and I thought about how they took to it so naturally...

Now I will be starting a thread asking if anybody can recommend a good Judo school in the Southern California area.

Mr M, you may have just created a monster


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## arnisador (Sep 10, 2008)

Judo is great for kids; BJJ is good too, but Judo is a natural! And, you can throw a bully at school but may have a harder time explaining why you gouged his eyes.


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## girlbug2 (Sep 10, 2008)

Brian said:


> Girlbug2
> Within the military it is generally accepted that not all warriors are created equally. Within the units and teams there are always a few that will do more than others and do it better. Warriors can be made but born warriors are into a class by themselves. Reading your original post reminded me of this fact and the issues that it brings up. In todays society true warriors have a difficult path and will face many challenges and it will only get more challenging in the future. Girlbug2 you know your son and you can decide for yourself on what his character is/will be and MOST important how you want to shape it. As difficult as it may be to look at the child today and see the man of tomorrow I believe that you owe it to your son and to yourself to do so. What kind of man do you want your son to be? Do you want a Alan Alda sensitive man, one in touch with his feelings and ready to and willing to cry at the slightest urging, or do you want a man that sees strength as being silent and tough holding his feelings and emotions in check to only be examined in private using the two extremes as examples? In reality most men have a little of both with one or the other being more prominent in their make-up. It is important Girlbug2 to decide that now and get it in your head so that you can help guide the boy into manhood.
> What does that mean to you (in my opinion)? It means that if you want him to be the sensitive type you will need to practice and start the influence right away. The male models in his life should reflect that type of male understanding. The sports and hobbies that he participates should build upon the traits that you see as important. This is in my opinion much more important for a young man that tends toward the stereotypical warrior/protector man type due to the stigma that modern society tries to place upon the type. If your son tends toward this type he will need a lot of guidance and patience and understanding. Importantly and why I am writing this post is that you girlbug2 will need much more patience than you can even imagine at this moment. Your boy will do things that you will have no idea of why he chose to do them and he will not be able to articulate why himself. You will have to decide in advance to support him in his decisions and actions even when others will point and blame. He may be a fighter and if so he will fight. There will be consequences of his being willing to stand up and lay his enemies before him. He will get into conflicts and battles and will not always understand or able to articulate why but will only know that it needed to be done and he did it. Those consequences might be his getting kicked off of a team, in trouble at school, and a minimum of good friends in his young life. As a parent of a warrior/protector you will need to come to the conclusion early on that the consequences fair or not (and most will be unfair) be damned his actions are worth it and you will have to help him understand that sometimes the cost of taking a stand must be paid and the benefits may not appear for years and years if ever. As the parent of a warrior/protector you will need to guide him to put his instincts to a higher service otherwise he may find himself fighting merely for the sake of fighting.
> 
> ...


 
Mr. King,

You have raised a lot of interesting points and I have been thinking about them off and on for days now.

Regarding warrior types v sensitive types and thier roles in our modern world, I tend to think our industrial/information age has been slowly phasing out warrior types in favor of the sensitive types.  Books like Iron John address this a little. IMO it's a mistake to not appreciate and utilize every form of human potential, including warrior types. Perhaps _especially_ warrior types, because as you hinted, repressing these instincts might only result in creating bullies and other various frustrated warriors in disguise.

It's sad that we even think of them as opposites because truthfully, the most impressive people I have ever known had a good balance of both in their make up. I fell in love with my dh at least partly because he strongly displayed both sensitivity and a protector/warrior side, with no seeming contradiction. It's a mystery that still holds my fascination. My six year old boy is showing these qualities as well even at his early age. Nothing would please me more than to see my kids grow up to be so wholly balanced in this way, just like their father.

As for my guiding these boys, well, that is the million dollar question! Certainly they will get MA training to help them with skill, funneling their energies, and control of their impulses, but beyond that...? More and more it is made obvious that so little of who they really are, at core, has to do with any of my efforts. What I can influence seems to shrink with every passing year. Mostly I believe that I am helpless to do anything but go on instinct and pray for the best outcome. Somewhere in all this, our modeling good behavior and values for them will eventually pay off. So, my ultimate prayer is that I do not fail them in the example I set everyday for How To Be A Grownup.

Thanks for your kind words Mr. King. You have a philospher's spirit as well as a martial spirit I think. God be with you.


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## girlbug2 (Sep 10, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> It's a pity you don't play rugby over there. I know you think soccer is a gentler game than your American football but here 'soccer' ( football to us lol) is known as a game of gentlemen played by thugs while rugby is a game of thugs played by gentlemen. Rugby is by far the superior game, you can laugh all you want at cricket too but it's invaluable for teaching youngsters how to 'play the game' in life. It's no accident that all our great leaders, warriors and notable people don't play soccer they play rugby and cricket!


 
OMG, I would _love_ to find a rugby team for my kids! In high school gym class we spent a short segment one semester on rugby. I remember thinking it was so much more fun than football.

Unfortunately, you mention rugby over here and you'll be met with a lot of blank stares. Most people here associate it with a particular style of shirt.


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## girlbug2 (Sep 10, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> I'm going to tone down my criticism to just this one question. *How do you know that Jerry has a problem?*
> 
> I'll be honest with you. I can't tell you how many threads, phone calls, emails, that I've gotten from parents and I know they are trying to defend their child to the death, but...
> 
> ...


 
I don't really know a way to prove that Jerry is a special needs kid, other than his general behavior. Things like when a kid bumps against him during a play, most kids yelp then shrug it off but Jerry reacts with explosive anger. The frequent tantrums in which Jerry has to be bodily carried off the field...I am not an educator nor a psychologist, but he just doesn't seem to be "wired" the same way as other kids, is the only way I could put it. Could it be the result of being spoiled or indulged or neglected? I suppose anything's possible, but OTOH it just seems too extreme to be explained away by that.
((shrug)) It's a moot point now. I really wish I knew the name of that disorder, if indeed it is a disorder.


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## girlbug2 (Sep 10, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Good question. Sounds like this isn't the first time Jerry has acted out. I'm curious how the other children on the team handle the situation?


 
At times they were pulled backwards by their jerseys and fell to the ground, or maybe shoved before the coach could step in. Once I saw another child start to shove Jerry right back, but other than that, the kids seemed wary of him and kept their distance.


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## girlbug2 (Sep 10, 2008)

arnisador said:


> And, you can throw a bully at school but may have a harder time explaining why you gouged his eyes.


 
My thoughts exactly!


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## BLACK LION (Sep 11, 2008)

our society has a problem with discipline.... 
parents are afraid to parent thier children.... society places a dark cloud on discipline and children...   a short time ago if a child acted up the whole nieghborhood wooped thier behind and then when they got home, they got some more...   now it seems as if the kids run the show because parents know people are watching and they dont want to look bad...   kids can act out however they want and people just have to deal with it becuase no one wants to raise a finger to em out of fear...  people are so quick to call or yell child abuse when it isnt even close.... yet neglects a child being bludgeoned to death or ignores actual beating abuse or torture...  priorities are jacked up... it seems to be all about impressing people and not raising quality human beings...   

it shouldnt take a kid having to make the decision dozens of grownups there including the parents could have easily made... its the parents fault the child had to use the only tool he had to stop this kid and its the parents fault the other kid got kicked...   if the grown ups did thier job the only kicking done would have been on the soccer ball


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## celtic_crippler (Sep 11, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> our society has a problem with discipline....


 
ain't it da troof


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 13, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> our society has a problem with discipline....
> parents are afraid to parent thier children.... society places a dark cloud on discipline and children... a short time ago if a child acted up the whole nieghborhood wooped thier behind and then when they got home, they got some more... now it seems as if the kids run the show because parents know people are watching and they dont want to look bad... kids can act out however they want and people just have to deal with it becuase no one wants to raise a finger to em out of fear... people are so quick to call or yell child abuse when it isnt even close.... yet neglects a child being bludgeoned to death or ignores actual beating abuse or torture... priorities are jacked up... it seems to be all about impressing people and not raising quality human beings...
> 
> it shouldnt take a kid having to make the decision dozens of grownups there including the parents could have easily made... its the parents fault the child had to use the only tool he had to stop this kid and its the parents fault the other kid got kicked... if the grown ups did thier job the only kicking done would have been on the soccer ball


 
Society has a contradictory problem....we have a problem with individual discipline because we have replaced it with a nebulous form of bureaucratic discipline.  Zero tolerance policies have taken the place of common sense.  Common sense is not a function of bureacracies.


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## allenjp (Sep 18, 2008)

This particular issue hits close to home because my son has grown up with the son of very good friends of mine who is "special needs" who used to act out violently a lot. It's hard because of the situation in which a kid sometimes just doesn't understand or is unable to control himself because of his disabilities.

But I have learned the long and hard way that you cannot treat them differently than any other kid in these situations. If your kid has to defend himself, you cannot second guess him. Especially in this situation because you saw the whole thing and you know he was justified.

What I have taught my son (who has trained in MA for 4 years) is that no words are ever enough to justify violence. But once the other child touches him in an offensive manner, or it becomes clear they are going to, he can do whatever it takes to defend himself. He knows not to continue to beat a kid who is no longer a threat, but I refuse to pressure him not to defend himself. My son is very responsible and is not about to start a fight, and I have told him he will be in big trouble if he ever does. 

You cannot worry about school policies, they are ridiculous anyway, I have told my son that if he feels he needs to defend himself, he shoudn't worry about the school, as long as he follows my rules I will take care of that part.

Not to sound biased, but a grappling art is always good for kids in that situation...a lot of times it is better for them just to take the other kid down and hold them there until someone breaks it up, it's a little easir to justify than punchng or kicking...


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## bluemtn (Sep 18, 2008)

I agree whole- heartedly on looking into getting him into anything dealing with grappling.  Even wrestling is a good start, even though it's not considered a martial art by many.  Just another thought.


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## KenpoTex (Sep 19, 2008)

tkdgirl said:


> I agree whole- heartedly on looking into getting him into anything dealing with grappling. Even wrestling is a good start, even though it's not considered a martial art by many. Just another thought.


 I think wresting would be a great choice...I wish I'd had the opportunity to do it when I was younger.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 19, 2008)

Yeah, I have to agree with the grappling art suggestion.....wrestling, BJJ, Judo, all very good systems of self-defense especially for kids.

Someone who uses grappling control on someone else trying to throw punches looks like the 'good guy' to folks watching....even though he has the power to escalate the situation as far as he needs to.....he still 'looks' like he's just hanging on to the guy.


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## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 19, 2008)

I started my martial arts in Judo. I began when I started secondary school. It helps for younger kids no end, I can personally attest to that.


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## foggymorning162 (Sep 20, 2008)

First there were way too many great posts to individually thank everyone so I would like to thank everyone now. In regards to you feeling bad about the cleat marks just remember that they were probably caused just as much by the force from Jerry running at your child as from the side kick itself. 

I'm glad it worked out for you there is no reason your son should not be able to play just because he *HAD* to defend himself. 

Now for one of my pet peeves parents of children with ADD/ADHD and other behavior problems. We have a student with ADHD who's parents sit and watch his classes and (without being disruptive to the class themselves) make sure that he is not a disruption and is always on his best behavior. There have been others like this although the kids can still sometimes be difficult with the parents help it usually isn't so bad and they child does benefit from class and eventually does not need that constant watchfullness. And then there are the others, some of them have children with legitamate problems some of them I'm not so sure it's not just a label they put on them because it's easier then being a parent. These are the parent who blame everybody else for not understanding their child who expect you to make their child behave but don't feel that you should make them sit out when they're not in control, don't want you to dole out push-ups when they act out. Who when you talk to them about "little Johnny's" behavior (poor Johnny gets a bad rap) fall back on the old well you know he has problems and even when they "talk" to them about their behavior you can tell they aren't going to back it up and the kids know it to. We deal with these kids all the time in MA because they think it is going to be a miracle cure and MA alone will make their child be good. Well with enough patients from the instructor and a parent who keeps torturing said instructor by continuing to bring their child to class this usually is the case but wouldn't it be a whole lot easier if the parents would just get on board and start disciplining their own children. MA can teach them the skills to deal with their problems but without that constant discipline it is a long and tortured road for everyone involved.


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## eggg1994 (Dec 23, 2010)

i think your son did the right thing bydefending himself but however he used too mucjh force andim trained in bjj and kickboxing im an orange belt in bjj. i would never give into my rage like that  you know im not critiziing you im just making a point. i want to be a martial arts instructor someday and tell your son the spinderman talk when there's great power comes great responsability which will limit the amount of force your child should use im not an expert by the way but i wish i was like your son because i have problems with other people and i tend to lash out at anyone insulting me. what should i do if someone makes me feel uncomforable and makes me look bad because i always lash out at them especially when i walk around the naborhood.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 23, 2010)

You are replying to a thread that is years old and hasn't been replied to since 2008.
Generally it is considered bad manners to dredge up dead threads unless you are adding some vital new information or posting relevant updates.


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## Balrog (Dec 23, 2010)

girlbug2 said:


> The coach tells me that he understands it was self defense but my kid has to be kicked off of the team if it ever happens again.
> 
> Now I am feeling a lot of conflicting emotions about this.


You should be outraged about it.  Your son should not have been punished in any way, and if it happens again, he should *NOT* be kicked off the team, Jerry should.

This is lawsuit worthy.  It's the only way to bring zero tolerance crap like this to a screeching halt.  Let the coach and the school and Jerry's parents know that if Jerry attacks your son again, you'll have Jerry arrested for assault and bring suit against the school.


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## l_uk3y (Dec 24, 2010)

I say good on your son.  He probably only had a split second to relise what was happening and didn't know what to expect and he reacted with a useful defensive move. Noone had any lasting damages or injurys. So their is no true loss from either party. 

The parent of "Jerry" should pull their finger out and relise that if their child has a special need.  That need MUST be met. If you don't give him his medication but still let him with others in a lesser controlled environment then their is going to be problems. 

Its not "Jerry's" fault! Certainly not your sons fault for avoiding himself getting potentially hurt.  Comes down to the person in charge of caring for him to make sure his Needs are met.

Luke


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## ETinCYQX (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm going to go ahead and say your son was 100% in the right.

I was always told as a kid to never let myself get hit physically, and my parents promised me they'd stick up for me if I did use force to defend myself. I never had to. I understand that it's not an approach everyone takes but it meant a lot to me and I'll take the same stance with my kids someday. People forget this, but if you have your parent's support as a kid you can literally forget everyone else. I could have been thrown out of school, banned from playing soccer, basketball, whatever, even kicked out of my martial arts school but if I knew my parents were on my side I was OK. 

I was a small kid, a bit awkward and quite quiet, but my martial arts experience let me hold my head high and taught me I could handle whatever I had to. Not that I could fight exceptionally well or anything, but I think you guys know the feeling I mean. It also meant that I never felt the need to pick fights or brag about training.


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## gobbly (May 11, 2011)

marlon said:


> two good things here in my opinion.  One a good reaction from your son to defend himself.  And, a lesson that there are consequences to our actions even if we are right (or feel we are).  nothing bad happened here.  Time to teach him the spiderman thing responsibilty and power....bla bla...but so true and important.  make sure he knows he has nothing to prove, and teach him, explain the whole situation.  Our children do not lack capacity...only teachers and teachings.  trust him to understand and grow.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



qft


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## OKenpo942 (May 13, 2011)

Maybe I missed this somewhere in someone elses post (I just read the first page), but why is the there even an issue that if he defends himself again that he will be off of the team.

My question is, why is the "off his meds" child not off of the team if his outbursts are fairly frequent? If they address the problem, the solution takes care of itself.

Also, I understand that this is kind of punishing the child for his mother's ineptitude, but let the other, at least ten, children play without fear of being attacked by the one child with the problems. I would rather have ten happy kids and one sad kid than one happy troubled child and ten looking over their shoulders wondering if they are going to be attacked.

On a different note, kuddos to your son for having the instinct to protect himself. and doing so in an effective manner that did not cause any lasting damage to the other child. 

Thanks,

James


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## oftheherd1 (May 19, 2011)

Well, since this old thread has been resurrected, I will just add my thoughts.  Discipline is indeed lacking in a great portion of our society.  Even some MA instructors of young kids do not enforce dojo discipline for fear of losing students (and money).  Shame on them!

School teachers are as bad, or worse.  Now I will admit we don't give them the tools we used to.  Imagine the outcry if a teacher spanked a kid.  The teach would certainly be disciplined, maybe with a firing.  Yet how many parents will tell teachers to be sure and make Johnny behave?  And why don't the parents do so?

But schools and kids sporting venues all seem to take the same tack.  Don't get involved to the point of doing the right thing, when it will be controversial.  Kick off the one least likely to retaliate, or both if you can.  [/sarcasm mode on]I understand our society has gotten more liberal and lawyers have to make a living too. [.sarcasm mode off].

MA are a great way for kids to learn discipline if you find a school in any MA that upholds that.  But parents can't send a "bad" kid to the dojo if they aren't already teaching their kid discipline themselves, in the home.  Sorry, there just aren't that many miracles to go around.


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