# OH Man  A new low



## Xue Sheng (Oct 14, 2009)

I am not fraud busting since I am not giving out names but I am just not happy about this and I had to get it off of my chest.

My first sifu, who I have mentioned before in reference to changing for the o-mighty dollar, has sunk to a new low and I deleted most of what I wrote, before posting, in a effort to keep it short and avoid a long rant and frankly after writing it all out, I no longer really cared :shrug:.

My first sifu, who learned virtually all of his Chinese Martial Arts at a Chinese Physical Education University (except for 2 forms; 1 Chen, 1 Tongbei), who knew no traditional Taijiquan forms (except for a very old version of Chen Laojia), who did not like to be called master or sifu and preferred being called by his first name (he is now a Grand Master by the way ) 

Now is apparently not only a master of multiple traditional Taiji family styles but he is now a master of old Yang style forms from Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou and Yang Jianhou that the Yang family doesn&#8217;t even know :disgust: and you can be to for $44.95 per DVD for about 15 DVDs :disgust:. Oh and if you what the Yang Chengfu version that too is only $44.95 per DVD for 3 DVDs :disgust:.

Well I guess what CZL said about him must be true, &#8220;he must be a Grand Master, he knows over 100 styles&#8221; 


Eh whatever 

Thanks, I feel better now. :asian:


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## Flying Crane (Oct 14, 2009)

ouch.


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## ggg214 (Oct 14, 2009)

expensive!


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 15, 2009)

it hurts to even read this sad account


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 15, 2009)

Sorry to hear all about that Xue!


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 15, 2009)

Thanks

In China he is a Gym Teacher...

In America he is now a Grandmaster of 10 different CMA styles...  
Sadly he now believes he actually is a Grandmaster of all those styles and now he is even teaching versions of styles that the families they are from don't even know. 

The sad part is that when I first started training with him it was a pretty good school for basic sport Sanshou and Wushu stuff and he use to let a bunch of us from multiple styles get together and use his school for free on Saturday afternoons for sparing... now...well... everything is all about $$$ and most of what he teaches he did not learn from any Sifu. :disgust:


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## blindsage (Oct 15, 2009)

You're just jealous.  Hater.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 15, 2009)

blindsage said:


> You're just jealous. Hater.


 
yup, that's got to be it.


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## ggg214 (Oct 15, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thanks
> 
> In China he is a Gym Teacher...
> 
> ...


 
the same thing is happening in china.
when CmA meets money, everything has changed. they pay more attention in business, not in CMA. 
that's why i don't attend any classes in Wushu center, i'd like to find teachers in pulbic parks.


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## grydth (Oct 15, 2009)

On the positive side of the balance sheet, he was at least able to communicate a long lasting respect for the true CMA to you before this unfortunate change. If you consider that, some of the bitterness will subside.


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## jim777 (Oct 16, 2009)

Sad, sorry to hear it.


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## wushuguy (Oct 16, 2009)

is what he teaches at least useful for those who learn from him? While some people may make very exaggerated claims, perhaps there is still usefulness in the techniques he's teaching the students?  some people need to feel better by being called a "grand master" who give such titles anyway... if self-appointed, well then one needs to check reality, but if many high skilled martial artists from different arts call him a "grand master" there might be merit to the title.

Anyway, although such path isn't the way we may agree with, hope his students can still gain something.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 16, 2009)

wushuguy said:


> is what he teaches at least useful for those who learn from him? While some people may make very exaggerated claims, perhaps there is still usefulness in the techniques he's teaching the students? some people need to feel better by being called a "grand master" who give such titles anyway... if self-appointed, well then one needs to check reality, but if many high skilled martial artists from different arts call him a "grand master" there might be merit to the title.
> 
> Anyway, although such path isn't the way we may agree with, hope his students can still gain something.


 
There is no such animal as a living Grandmaster in China that is a title of compliment or that shows great skill. He was called a Grand Master (da sifu) by one of the Chen family once which translates to fake in mainland Chinese terms. So if many high level masters from mainland China call him a grandmaster, particularly in their native tongue, they are being sarcastic. There is NO living grandmaster title in traditional Chinese Martial Arts and it has been my experience that the title Grandmaster is not often applied to even those that have passed away in TCMA circles. Those that use the title either have no clue to the culture or do it for the benefit of westerners since we are all so impressed by title.

What he teaches these days is sloppy form with no apps that is pretty much useless and he then gives those he teaches certificates (for a price) that they feel give them the right to go off and teach what they learned and there is no reason they shouldn't certificate or not. It is however not anything that should be taught to someone else as Chinese Martial Arts. 

Most of what he teaches and claims mastery of today he learned form VCDs he bought in China. I know what he learned in China and the majority of what he teaches today he did not learn there

EDIT

Look here


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## wushuguy (Oct 16, 2009)

I see. thanks for clearing that up for me. I didn't realize his "mastery" was as such. I never heard of the title grandmaster in CMA either, so thought my knowledge might just be limited. I just knew that there are some exceptional martial artists others call them "da xia" but that might just be in the movies.


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## SifuAbel (Oct 17, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> What he teaches these days is sloppy form with no apps that is pretty much useless http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76247



This is really the important part. That his skill was sub par to begin with. 

If you are pretty much at a high level in a comparable style, with good basics and mechanics, then learning another routine isn't that big a deal. And the reverse is true, as in this case.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 19, 2009)

SifuAbel said:


> This is really the important part. That his skill was sub par to begin with.


 
Actually for what he learned in China his skill was pretty good and he did teach it pretty well in the beginning he was a stickler for form and claimed to know only what he learned in China. It was later that he discovered that if you are not as concerned about getting the forms right and don't care about hard training then you get a BUNCH more students. Then of course you get VCDs of the forms your students want and learn them form VCD and then claim mastery and get a LOT MORE students. Of course not one of them could fight there way out of a wet paper bag with what he taught them (he does not teach any sanshou anymore) and his students forms are awful, but they think they are great because they think he is great and gives them piles of certificates (for a price) based on his greatness to tell them they are great.

What truly upsets me about all of this is that he was not bad many years ago for what it was and it claimed to be nothing other than it was. He certainly did not have the understanding of taiji that my taiji Sifu has nor the understanding of Xingyiquan that my last Xingyiquan Sifu had nor the understanding of Bagua, Shaolin or any other form that he taught back then as a legitimate Sifu of that style would have but he was not at all bad for the forms he learned in China and Sanshou. But as he once told me, he can't train people in America like he would people in China because he would have no students. At that point I just thought he was going to keep the school like it was, I was training his Old Chen form then and it was pretty cool and like I said it started with 60 students and when it was all over there were only 6 of us left. 

However after that the bogus taiji forms appeared and changing of other forms to make it easier started and the contracts, prices went up and copious certificates as well. And were he was once a stickler for form he was now not really all that concerned about it, close was good enough, and rough worked. Things went downhill form there and I left after that. Of course there were several discussions, an argument or two and a bringing in of one of his original videos as proof that he was changing things when he was denying it. 

I just know what it was like, what he was like and what it is now and what he is like now and it all just makes me rather sad and on occasion, like it did when I started this post, rather angry. 



SifuAbel said:


> If you are pretty much at a high level in a comparable style, with good basics and mechanics, then learning another routine isn't that big a deal. And the reverse is true, as in this case.


 
And I do not agree with this in the context of my first Sifu or any other legitimate high level Sifu for that matter, it is a big deal. 

My taiji Sifu has been doing Yang style taiji for over 50 years but he could not learn Chen from a video and be a master of it or good enough to teach it nor would he want to (although of all the people out there today with Taiji videos Chen Zhenglei and Chen Xiaowang impress him most). But he most certainly knows the mechanics of taiji.

My Sanda Sifu has been doing Sanda for close to 40 years and he could not get Shaolin videos or Bagua videos of Xingyi videos and go off and teach any of them nor would he, even though he was show Xingyi 12 animal while he was growing up. He is a Sanda Sifu, nothing else, and that is how he sees it and people like my first Sifu are hu&#257; quán xìu t&#468;i" or xìu hu&#257; zh&#466;u tóu to him and he has called my first Sifu this more than once.

I have been at Yang Taiji for 18 years, 15 with my Sifu and I would not for a second go off and buy a DVD or a VCD and learn a form from that and then go off and teach it to anyone. I trained Chen for a couple of years, some with Chen Zhenglei and I would not for a second go buy his Videos, learn form them and then go teach Chen. 

IMO, I do not care how good you are at any given style a DVD (VCD) is at best a supplement for training with a real Sifu not a substitute, not a marketing ploy to gain more students, just a supplement. But in many cases things are a lot more complicated than a VCD or DVD makes it look and on occasion the person who made the DVD has changed a form so he can tell if a person actually learned from him or from one of his videos. 

My first Sifu was rather well trained in Modern Wushu, competition forms and sanshou. He is/was also a rather good mimic and I saw this when he copied a traditional Yang style video and then claimed he learned it in China and taught it,  but that does not justify learning multiple other styles from a video, claiming mastery, lying about where he learned them, charging large sums of money for them and bilking the public.

I honestly dont think about this much anymore and I truly dont let it get to me much these days either and going to his webpage of late has usually been done for comic relief but when I saw his new DVDs that taught Yang style forms that, if they exist, are so rare I doubt any claim to someone actually knowing them, forms that not even the current Yang family heads know, I got a bit disgusted and posted it.

And there is more but I am tired of this and fraud busting is not what I want to do, I just wanted to get this off my chest in hopes that it would go away.


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## oxy (Oct 21, 2009)

It's almost like he's Count Dooku and you're Qui-Gon Jinn.


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## zepedawingchun (Oct 22, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> My first sifu, who learned virtually all of his Chinese Martial Arts at a Chinese Physical Education University (except for 2 forms; 1 Chen, 1 Tongbei), who knew no traditional Taijiquan forms (except for a very old version of Chen Laojia), who did not like to be called master or sifu and preferred being called by his first name (he is now a Grand Master by the way )
> 
> Now is apparently not only a master of multiple traditional Taiji family styles but he is now a master of old Yang style forms from Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou and Yang Jianhou that the Yang family doesnt even know :disgust:
> 
> . . . . .he must be a Grand Master, he knows over 100 styles


 
And he didn't even have to take a plane ride to do it.  That statement pertains to something my Sifu says, 'Lots of martial arts guys leave Hong Kong a sifu and arrive in the USA, get off the plane and now have the title of Grand Master.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 22, 2009)

oxy said:


> It's almost like he's Count Dooku and you're Qui-Gon Jinn.


 
I want to make this perfectly clear.... at no point were there any light sabers involved :jedi1:  :jediduel: 
But of course.. you realize.... I now I have to figure out who Darth Maul is 



zepedawingchun said:


> And he didn't even have to take a plane ride to do it. That statement pertains to something my Sifu says, 'Lots of martial arts guys leave Hong Kong a sifu and arrive in the USA, get off the plane and now have the title of Grand Master.


 
Sadly that is all to true.


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## terryl965 (Oct 22, 2009)

Sorry Xue so what is next for you?


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 22, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Sorry Xue so what is next for you?


 
Nothing different terry, I have not trained with my first Sifu at all for well over 10 years. I have been training with my second Sifu (Yang Taijiquan) for over 15 years now and I will continue training with him. And I have trained others (Sanda, Xingyiquan and Wing Chun) that I consider a Sifu since then as well. And a seminar or two with other CMA teachers that I would consider a legitimate Sifu just not my Sifu..

It is just that I take a look at my first sifus webpage from time to time, generally for comic relief these days, but his latest claim of knowing forms from Yang family members that the Yang family does not know just got to me and brought back all those feelings of disgust and disappointment.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 22, 2009)

Hey Xue,

have you ever considered sort of calling his bluff?  I think you could do it in a respectful way, non-publically so that you aren't embarrassing him.  You could write him a letter and lay out your observations and your concerns and basically say, "what the hell are you doing??!!"

It might not change his behavior, but at least he would know that he ain't fooling everyone, and there are people out there who know the truth.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 22, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> Hey Xue,
> 
> have you ever considered sort of calling his bluff? I think you could do it in a respectful way, non-publically so that you aren't embarrassing him. You could write him a letter and lay out your observations and your concerns and basically say, "what the hell are you doing??!!"
> 
> It might not change his behavior, but at least he would know that he ain't fooling everyone, and there are people out there who know the truth.


 
Next time I see him I may just ask him about the Yang style DVDs he claims are of 1st and 2nd generation Yang family. I tend to run into him at least once or twice a year so next time... we will see.


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## XingyiMax (Nov 18, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am not fraud busting since I am not giving out names but I am just not happy about this and I had to get it off of my chest.
> 
> My first sifu, who I have mentioned before in reference to changing for the o-mighty dollar, has sunk to a new low and I deleted most of what I wrote, before posting, in a effort to keep it short and avoid a long rant and frankly after writing it all out, I no longer really cared :shrug:.
> 
> ...


 
look on the bright side, you ex-sifu has learned to market himself and he is making a better living now.

Taiji form from Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou and Yang Jianhou?  Does it really matter?  They share the same core, it's only defferent people expressed in defferent ways.  But, it does make a huge defferent in marketing to the general public.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 20, 2009)

XingyiMax said:


> look on the bright side, you ex-sifu has learned to market himself and he is making a better living now.
> 
> Taiji form from Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou and Yang Jianhou? Does it really matter? They share the same core, it's only defferent people expressed in defferent ways. But, it does make a huge defferent in marketing to the general public.


 
Taiji form from Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou and Yang Jianhou doesnt matter except no one truly knows what that is and he never learned it form anything but a DVD or he possibly made it up all on his own.

I forget the term in Mandarin but it has been used to describe him by a few that would be considered a real Martial Arts Sifu and the term translates to "Dirty Businessman"


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## grydth (Nov 20, 2009)

XingyiMax said:


> look on the bright side, you ex-sifu has learned to market himself and he is making a better living now.
> 
> Taiji form from Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou and Yang Jianhou?  Does it really matter?  They share the same core, it's only defferent people expressed in defferent ways.  But, it does make a huge defferent in marketing to the general public.



Respectfully, I do not see this as a "bright side" at all, not in any way.


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## XingyiMax (Nov 20, 2009)

Well, if you look around you, how many products truthfully work as discribed on their labels or as their claimed to be???? 

In my humble opinion, this "sifu" has turned into a salesman, he has just relabeled his merchandise, as long as he doesn't defame others to sell his products, that is fine for me.

Besides, I personally disagree on the exchange of the arts for money, I share my art for free, this is my journey and I choose to do that.  However, I don't try to change other people's mind on this issue, somebody wanna to make money out of martial arts, it's fine, that's their way.


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## geezer (Nov 20, 2009)

Hey Xue, I hate to play "topper" (a "Dilbert" reference) but I think my old Chinese sifu has gone _even lower_ than yours. He was genuinely superb at his art, but he layered lies upon lies to inflate his public presence. He bullied and exploited sincere and dedicated student-disciples for personal gain, and the latest I hear is he's just been _convicted_ in court in Hong Kong of really low, immoral, criminal behavior.

Xue, you know why this really galls me is that back in the years when I trained under him, my kung-fu brothers and I invested heart, soul and $$$ to learn from this guy. And we got screwed. At least we did learn some quality kung-fu, but now because of his behavior I'm ashamed to say who I studied under. Instead I use the generic term for this martial art, and if people ask I refer to the lineage by way of my si-gung, Yip Man.


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## grydth (Nov 21, 2009)

XingyiMax said:


> Well, if you look around you, how many products truthfully work as discribed on their labels or as their claimed to be????
> 
> In my humble opinion, this "sifu" has turned into a salesman, he has just relabeled his merchandise, as long as he doesn't defame others to sell his products, that is fine for me.
> 
> Besides, I personally disagree on the exchange of the arts for money, I share my art for free, this is my journey and I choose to do that.  However, I don't try to change other people's mind on this issue, somebody wanna to make money out of martial arts, it's fine, that's their way.



That many frauds upon the public may exist in no way justifies each individual fraud.

Had Xue's old sifu merely discovered a marketing strategy, we would have no area of disagreement. But that is not the process Xue describes here.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 21, 2009)

XingyiMax said:


> Well, if you look around you, how many products truthfully work as discribed on their labels or as their claimed to be????
> 
> In my humble opinion, this "sifu" has turned into a salesman, he has just relabeled his merchandise, as long as he doesn't defame others to sell his products, that is fine for me.
> 
> Besides, I personally disagree on the exchange of the arts for money, I share my art for free, this is my journey and I choose to do that. However, I don't try to change other people's mind on this issue, somebody wanna to make money out of martial arts, it's fine, that's their way.


 
This is not salesmanship, but if you wish to believe it is that is fine, I will not argue the point beyond this post.

What he is doing is outright lying to the public and his students. He learned all he truly knows in China a physical education university (except for 2 forms) and in China he is a gym teacher. He learned all competition (performance) forms and Sports sanshou in college he did not learn any traditional systems at all. What he learned prior to college was one rather long old style Chen Taiji form (not from the Chen family) and a Tongbei form. Not complete systems just 1 Chen form and 1 Tongbei form. 

He now claims mastery of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Chen, Yang, Sun, Wu, Wu/Hao, Zhaobao Taijiquan, Shaolin Long Fist and a few others I can&#8217;t remember off the top of my head. He told me that the only Qigong he learned was Zhan Zhuang and he knew no other Qigong styles or forms Now he is a Qigong master and selling certificates world wide&#8230;just not in China. He did not learn the Yang style form of Yang Chengfu from any sifu anywhere in the world, he learned if from a DVD and he most certainly did not learn any Yang Taiji form any other family member lineage form any sifu either. He either learned it form a DVD or he made it up all by himself.

He has been told by the Chen family to stop teaching Chen and stop claiming lineage that he does not have to the Chen family. My Sanda sifu (the police/military version) calls him hu&#257; quán xìu t&#468;i and xìu hu&#257; zh&#466;u tóu to his face and my Yang sifu will not acknowledge him if he is in the same room



grydth said:


> That many frauds upon the public may exist in no way justifies each individual fraud.
> 
> Had Xue's old sifu merely discovered a marketing strategy, we would have no area of disagreement. But that is not the process Xue describes here.


 
It is plain outright fraud and sadly when I first trained with him it was a great school and he taught only what he &#8220;really knew&#8221;. But now he teaches forms of Taiji that not even the families know. 

More info in my next response to geezer


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 21, 2009)

geezer said:


> Hey Xue, I hate to play "topper" (a "Dilbert" reference) but I think my old Chinese sifu has gone even lower than yours. He was genuinely superb at his art, but he layered lies upon lies to inflate his public presence. He bullied and exploited sincere and dedicated student-disciples for personal gain, and the latest I hear is he's just been convicted in court in Hong Kong of really low, immoral, criminal behavior.
> 
> Xue, you know why this really galls me is that back in the years when I trained under him, my kung-fu brothers and I invested heart, soul and $$$ to learn from this guy. And we got screwed. At least we did learn some quality kung-fu, but now because of his behavior I'm ashamed to say who I studied under. Instead I use the generic term for this martial art, and if people ask I refer to the lineage by way of my si-gung, Yip Man.


 
OK OK you win 

That is sad to read geezer ad I am sorry to hear about it. 

Back when I trained with my first sifu we all work pretty hard as well and we got some great stuff but now if you mention his name to just about anyone in Internal CMA and a few outside of that you are setting yourself up for a whole lot of problems. Go to any of the CMA IMA websites and post his name and they will line up to tell you what they think about him, especially the Chen Taijiquan people. So I tend not to mention his name at all. And now he is so deep into his lies I actually believe he believes them now. 

My first sifu sets up tours of China from time to time and takes those who pay there and he acts, in some areas, as a tour guide and he is not in any danger of going to prison in China or anywhere else as far as I know but he will never take any groups to Chenjiagou (Chen Village) or ( I believe it is) Zhengzhou City in Henan Province. The reason for this is the Chen family can&#8217;t stand him and he has been told to stop teaching Chen and stop claiming lineage and if he goes to Chenjiagou it would not be pretty and if he goes to Zhengzhou City he runs smack into Chen Zhenglei and that would not be pretty either. 

And as long as he does not claim Yang family lineage my Yang sifu will continue to ignore him but if he were to ever claim that lineage he might go visit him, especially if he claimed it through Tung Ying Chieh. But so far the only family lineage he has claimed was Chen. 

He also claimed to know the Bagua of Dong Hai Chuan which is also rather interesting since apparently no one else on the planet know it but then it is not likely that any of Dong Hai Chuan family is still around that would care.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 24, 2010)

And now.... he is teaching Taiji and giving people herbs (that he knows nothing about) to prevent heart attack... yet another new marketing low :disgust:

had a heart problem, have a heart problem, think you might have a heart problem just go to his seminar ($$$) and he will make you all better... :disgust:

I really have to stop looking at his website :disgust:


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## clfsean (Nov 24, 2010)

Hate to say it... sounds par for the course


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## oaktree (Nov 24, 2010)

I am rather interested in what herbs or herbal formula he is using.

I was eating dinner and a waitress heard my friend saying he felt ill and told him to take
Astragalus because she does Massage therapy. When my friend asked how many grams he should take or what side effect she avoided the question and gave us our check.

There is a gentleman who teaches *ahem* healing charges over $300 for a session can heal you from long distances and over the phone. Maybe I should make a site that lists potential healer scams.....


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 26, 2010)

clfsean said:


> Hate to say it... sounds par for the course


 
Yup, showed this to my current Sifu/MD/old school TCM doc and he basically saiid this may get him a reservation in the iron bar hotel 

I have not shown this to my Sanda Sifu/MD yet should be interesting since he has called my first sifu a flower fist to his face before.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 26, 2010)

oaktree said:


> I am rather interested in what herbs or herbal formula he is using.
> 
> I was eating dinner and a waitress heard my friend saying he felt ill and told him to take
> Astragalus because she does Massage therapy. When my friend asked how many grams he should take or what side effect she avoided the question and gave us our check.
> ...


 

WOW!!

My wife needs to raise her prices for office visits... bigtime


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