# MA without spirituality or philosophy?



## trueaspirer (Jun 20, 2006)

That is, the practical, modern mas. Good or bad? There can be multiple ways of viewing it. On one side you have the idea that spirituality just bogs down the actual techniques, and does little good. On the other hand, though, the philosophy behind all mas is what drives them, what keeps them what they have been for so many centuries.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 20, 2006)

I don't think it is really possible, But you can definately do it without the stereotypical Asian take on it.  Just like all sports


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 20, 2006)

It is intrinsic.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 20, 2006)

Personally... I think it would be impossible to have a MA without either. It would be nothing more than an exercise if there were no philosophy or spiritual connection of the mind to body to do what must be done in a SD situation.


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## matt.m (Jun 20, 2006)

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> Personally... I think it would be impossible to have a MA without either. It would be nothing more than an exercise if there were no philosophy or spiritual connection of the mind to body to do what must be done in a SD situation.


 
Philosophy:

Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.
 
Spirituality: n 1: property or income owned by a church.  2: concern with things of the spirit.

I disagree.  I am sorry but you can certainly have a career in the martial arts without philosophy and without spirituality.  The mind/body or mind/muscle connection has nothing to do with philosophy and spirituality would be better coorelated with religion than with self defense.


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## OUMoose (Jun 20, 2006)

matt.m said:
			
		

> I disagree. I am sorry but you can certainly have a career in the martial arts without philosophy and without spirituality. The mind/body or mind/muscle connection has nothing to do with philosophy and spirituality would be better coorelated with religion than with self defense.


I think you can have Martial Arts today that don't concern themselves with spirituality and still be successful (MMA's and "reality" arts come to mind immediately).  However nothing like this can exist without philosophy.  Matt.m posted some definitions of Philosophy.  The first one stood out, IMO:


			
				matt.m said:
			
		

> Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.


Is that not, in itself, what training in the Martial Arts is?


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## matt.m (Jun 20, 2006)

Nah, I say this because with philosophy then you bring into account morals and ethics.  You don't need either to practice a side kick.  I think you learn and gain responsibility as your knowledge appreciates though.


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 20, 2006)

My philosophy and my spirituality both come from my spritual beliefes (Christian) with both pre-date and guide my martiall arts.  So you could say I have spirituality in my MA, but the spirituality preceeds and trancends the MA as opposed to be a product of it


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## OUMoose (Jun 20, 2006)

matt.m said:
			
		

> Nah, I say this because with philosophy then you bring into account morals and ethics. You don't need either to practice a side kick. I think you learn and gain responsibility as your knowledge appreciates though.


True, however without morals and ethics, how will you know when to side kick?  Without those, you're just lifting your leg funny.


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## pstarr (Jun 20, 2006)

The various philosophies are what have kept the martial arts alive for so long.  Without a philosophical foundation, a martial art quickly degenerates into a sophisticated form of streetfighting.

There's a difference.


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## Kacey (Jun 20, 2006)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> True, however without morals and ethics, how will you know when to side kick?  Without those, you're just lifting your leg funny.





			
				pstarr said:
			
		

> The various philosophies are what have kept the martial arts alive for so long. Without a philosophical foundation, a martial art quickly degenerates into a sophisticated form of streetfighting.
> 
> There's a difference.



I agree with you both - and well said, each of you.  :asian:


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## trueaspirer (Jun 21, 2006)

I don't think that you need philosophy to do a side kick, no. But it is what has kept ma alive and growing for so long. Without it, you might still be able to defend yourself, but the life has gone out of whatever you have studied. You will never be quite what you could have been with it.


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## Last Fearner (Jul 12, 2006)

Reality - - There is no such thing as the "Martial Art" without both spirituality *and* philosophy. It can not be done without changing the nature of the Martial Art into something that is *not* the Martial Art. These are ingredients that are as integral to what the Martial Art is as Oxygen, and Hydrogen are to what water is.

The younger generation who views the Martial Art merely as a system of self defense techniques, or a method of fighting (in the ring, or in the street), and they think they have the Martial Art "figured out," and understood, have no clue of what they are talking about. It is not a matter of personal opinion, or "this is what the Martial Art is to me." You can not re-define the Martial Art in the 20th, or 21st Century to make it into what you want it to be.  It is what it is, and you either study it, learn it, and come to understand it, or you do not!

Those who have committed a lifetime of study, and remained spiritual, and philosophical about the Martial Art, understand its nature, and know the difference between the Art, and the *skill* of *fighting*, and performing techniques.

Truth is not "figured out" - - it is revealed to the enlightened disciple of nature's way.  The Martial Way is not your way, or my way, it is simply *THE* Way.  Understand this philosophy, and realize that you are alive with a spirit that might, or might not be in accord with nature, and then you will be on the path of the Martial Art.  Fail to realize this, and you are simply a fighter who has mislabeled what you are doing.

Respectfully,
CM D. J. Eisenhart


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## pstarr (Jul 12, 2006)

Very, very well put!  :asian:


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## Ram (Sep 27, 2006)

Can you have martial arts without spirituality yes. Without philosophy probably not. But you never know  



> True, however without morals and ethics, how will you know when to side kick? Without those, you're just lifting your leg funny.


 
 Morals and ethics dose not have to come from a spiritual source but can come from a social and physiological beginning. But yes, for good or bad you need to know when to kick and when you do not need to.


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## jkd friend (Sep 28, 2006)

You need them both sense they were rooted on both!


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## MBuzzy (Sep 28, 2006)

Martial Arts were founded based on a great deal of spiritual ideals, but was this because of the arts and techniques themselves or the beliefs of those creating them.

I personally believe that sprituality is important in MA for many of the reasons discussed, basically the morality aspect.  

But the practice also requires self control and a degree of inner calm and relaxation.  Sprituality helps someone attain these things.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 28, 2006)

I think the spiritual aspect comes with age and the knowledge of what one could do, and the search to a higher meaning to life.  It is not a necessity to learning because the martial arts are about making war on one another not loving one another.


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## SFC JeffJ (Sep 28, 2006)

Saying that the "spirituality" or the "philosophy" of a martial art is important for morals seems like a shaky argument to me.  It kinda implies that people are sociopaths 'til they start studying them.

And morality need not be attached to spirituality, but must be attached to philosophy.

Just my two cents.

Jeff


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## Kacey (Sep 28, 2006)

JeffJ said:


> And morality need not be attached to spirituality, but must be attached to philosophy.



Oooh, I like that one... I might steal it!  Do you mind?

I would tend to agree - morality must have a reason, or it won't be flexible enough to deal with variable situations; one must understand the reasons for and methods of various levels of response or one cannot respond appropriately.  Rules are guidelines, but situations must be accounted for; no set of rules, no matter how inclusive, can cover every eventuality, and good decision making is based on understanding of underlying concepts - in this case, philosophy, or whatever you care to call it.


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## jkd friend (Sep 29, 2006)

Morality has nothing to do with this thier is no code of conduct in MA other than what your told to do by whom your studying under or your parents. The fact of the matter is you need them both to properly obtain the goal at hand to connect the essential three.    MIND, BODY, SPIRIT!
Your morality is of its own roots and does not contend with spirituality or philosophy because no matter what were are individuals who chose to do want we want witch changes what we learn.


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## SFC JeffJ (Sep 29, 2006)

jkd friend said:


> Morality has nothing to do with this thier is no code of conduct in MA other than what your told to do by whom your studying under or your parents. The fact of the matter is you need them both to properly obtain the goal at hand to connect the essential three.    MIND, BODY, SPIRIT!
> Your morality is of its own roots and does not contend with spirituality or philosophy because no matter what were are individuals who chose to do want we want witch changes what we learn.


Actually, morality has everything to do with philosophy.  Without philosophy, there would be no morality.  That being said, a philosophy doesn't have to come from a text book or someone in an ivory tower.  We all have one.  Even if you don't think you do.  I just find it easier to make moral decisions if I articulate my philosophy.

Jeff


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## jkd friend (Sep 29, 2006)

JeffJ said:


> Actually, morality has everything to do with philosophy. Without philosophy, there would be no morality. That being said, a philosophy doesn't have to come from a text book or someone in an ivory tower. We all have one. Even if you don't think you do. I just find it easier to make moral decisions if I articulate my philosophy.
> 
> Jeff


 No you have it wrong I think because to think moral is just that you must think a philosphy through and devlope it with time other than to react on morals witch trigger emtioms more so even if taught different. You have your own senses to tell you want is moral to you. morality can reach a divine point because of the emotion in it.


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## SFC JeffJ (Sep 29, 2006)

I'm not sure what you are trying to say there jkd friend.  In my studies and experience, it seems to me that morality without the structure of a philosophy is just an arbitrary set of rules.  Morality with philosophy is guide that can help you in every situation.  

Jeff


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## CoryKS (Sep 29, 2006)

JeffJ said:


> I'm not sure what you are trying to say there jkd friend. In my studies and experience, it seems to me that morality without the structure of a philosophy is just an arbitrary set of rules. Morality with philosophy is guide that can help you in every situation.
> 
> Jeff


 
This seems correct to me.  I read a book once where the author stated that the reason we teach children to be polite is that they are too young to understand the philosophy behind it.  At this stage, they _are_ just arbitrary rules.  The implication is that when they get older they will be made to understand the philosophical underpinnings of these rules.  It seems to me that we have not made the best effort in recent years to teach this philosophy, which has lead to a large number of adults who also feel that morality is an arbitrary set of rules that can be abandoned without care.


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## jkd friend (Sep 29, 2006)

The basis of morality is good and evil or good vs evil so what you all are saying is that every philosophy is on that root.  maybe? or?:asian:


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## Kacey (Sep 29, 2006)

jkd friend said:


> Morality has nothing to do with this thier is no code of conduct in MA other than what your told to do by whom your studying under or your parents. The fact of the matter is you need them both to properly obtain the goal at hand to connect the essential three.    MIND, BODY, SPIRIT!
> Your morality is of its own roots and does not contend with spirituality or philosophy because no matter what were are individuals who chose to do want we want witch changes what we learn.


As an instructor, I have a moral obligation to teach my students _when_ they can use the skills I have taught them - not just the skills themselves.  Do I sit them down and discuss philosophy in class?  No.  Do I spend time in class periodically discussing what level of response is appropriate for various scenarios?  Yes.  Do I spend time in class discussing the potential consequences for students who use these skills inappropriately?  Yes, I do - and this information is built into the material they are required to learn at various ranks.  Does this material have a moral component to it?  Yes it does.  Therefore, I am teaching morality - from a practical rather than philosophical viewpoint.  Omitting this information would be immoral, and would leave my students, and thus myself, open to legal troubles should I not teach such information and, subsequently, they used the skills learned in class to cause unwarranted harm.  I know instructors who leave this information out; they consider a waste of class time.  That is their loss - and more, their students' loss; without the moral component, we might as well be teaching Tae Bo.

Your opinion is obviously different, and you are welcome to it - but if you are going to continue to make blanket statements, I would appreciate it if you would include some rationale other than "because this is my opinion", because so far, I find your statements rather unconvincing.

To return to the original question, I think that spirituality and philosophy are often intertwined, and _can_ be taught together in a martial arts setting, but as long as the moral component discussed above is included, I don't think that spirituality is necessary; whether philosophy is necessary depends on your definition of philosophy and how you teach the moral component.


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## jkd friend (Sep 29, 2006)

Kacey said:


> As an instructor, I have a moral obligation to teach my students _when_ they can use the skills I have taught them - not just the skills themselves. Do I sit them down and discuss philosophy in class? No. Do I spend time in class periodically discussing what level of response is appropriate for various scenarios? Yes. Do I spend time in class discussing the potential consequences for students who use these skills inappropriately? Yes, I do - and this information is built into the material they are required to learn at various ranks. Does this material have a moral component to it? Yes it does. Therefore, I am teaching morality - from a practical rather than philosophical viewpoint. Omitting this information would be immoral, and would leave my students, and thus myself, open to legal troubles should I not teach such information and, subsequently, they used the skills learned in class to cause unwarranted harm. I know instructors who leave this information out; they consider a waste of class time. That is their loss - and more, their students' loss; without the moral component, we might as well be teaching Tae Bo.
> 
> Your opinion is obviously different, and you are welcome to it - but if you are going to continue to make blanket statements, I would appreciate it if you would include some rationale other than "because this is my opinion", because so far, I find your statements rather unconvincing.
> 
> To return to the original question, I think that spirituality and philosophy are often intertwined, and _can_ be taught together in a martial arts setting, but as long as the moral component discussed above is included, I don't think that spirituality is necessary; whether philosophy is necessary depends on your definition of philosophy and how you teach the moral component.


 






:asian:
Like I said before good vs evil very well than I am what I am a............lol!


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## SFC JeffJ (Sep 29, 2006)

Good and evil need to be defined.  That's where philosophy comes in.


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