# Traditional Shaolin White Crane Gongfu Training (Indiana)



## BillK (Jan 31, 2016)

Hello,
I am considering purchasing a few Kung Fu training DVDs from Yang Martial Arts Association. While I can train extensively on my own, there will come a time when a partner is needed. That being said, I am looking for someone who is wanting to train in traditional White Crane Gongfu, Shaolin Shuai jiao, and Chin Na. I can provide the training space and DVDs if someone is willing and able to meet in Bluffton. Must be seriously dedicated and willing to follow through with the commitment. If interested, send me a message. Thank you.


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## kuniggety (Feb 2, 2016)

I'm originally from Ft. Wayne and I wish I could help you out. TKD and Karate are pretty popular... with JJJ & BJJ growing. Unfortunately there isn't a strong KF scene there.


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## BillK (Feb 2, 2016)

kuniggety said:


> I'm originally from Ft. Wayne and I wish I could help you out. TKD and Karate are pretty popular... with JJJ & BJJ growing. Unfortunately there isn't a strong KF scene there.


Yes, all I've really seen there are a few Karate Dojos, a Hapkido studio, a few TKD and one Gracie Ju Jitsu center there. Nothing close to KF. Closest KF training is Indianapolis.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2016)

This topic comes up fairly often, people come here with a notion of training thru the medium of video instruction.

It's a bad idea, it doesn't work well, don't waste your money or your time.

Go find a good instructor of any style.  That will be better than learning from video.


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## BillK (Feb 3, 2016)

I think the debate about being to learn/not learn from a video is a never ending one. Some can learn that way, some cannot. I happen to be one of the one's who can learn via video. I'd even dare say as well as someone with a "live" instructor given the video is detailed. The issue arises when the techniques require two people, such as Chin Na or Shuai Jiao.


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## greytowhite (Feb 4, 2016)

Nah the issue arises when you have no somatosensory input. Visual alone is not enough to learn gong fu. Not just partner work but most parts of legitimate gong fu require a teacher to give it to you properly. If you are not getting whacked, pushed, slapped, and kicked into place to show you where the power is in each stance or movement you will not gain the true knowledge of the style.


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## mograph (Feb 4, 2016)

We can't get feedback from a video.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 4, 2016)

BillK said:


> I think the debate about being to learn/not learn from a video is a never ending one. Some can learn that way, some cannot. I happen to be one of the one's who can learn via video. I'd even dare say as well as someone with a "live" instructor given the video is detailed. The issue arises when the techniques require two people, such as Chin Na or Shuai Jiao.


I doubt it.  If video instruction of my system existed, I promise you would not be able to learn in that way, beyond superficial mimickery.


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## BillK (Feb 4, 2016)

I've heard all these same old tired arguments before, and frankly find them tiring. Good day.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 4, 2016)

BillK said:


> I've heard all these same old tired arguments before, and frankly find them tiring. Good day.


You know best.  Do what is right for you.


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## Skaw (Feb 5, 2016)

It's hard to learn (properly) with a proper sifu. It's even harder to learn without one.


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## MAfreak (Feb 5, 2016)

not sure on "gongfu" but basically, learning through videos is possible.
sure, not getting feedback is a problem. but training with videos is at least better than no training.
i would (and did with my own training) sometimes visit schools or events with experienced people from the specific style to get feedback or feel in sparring, if it works.

however if you don't have any martial arts experience, you should do karate or hapkido and do the video-"gongfu" along with it. then you have instrucors for the basics and should find a partner who would try also the stuff from the videos.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> not sure on "gongfu" but basically, learning through videos is possible.
> sure, not getting feedback is a problem. but training with videos is at least better than no training.
> i would (and did with my own training) sometimes visit schools or events with experienced people from the specific style to get feedback or feel in sparring, if it works.
> 
> however if you don't have any martial arts experience, you should do karate or hapkido and do the video-"gongfu" along with it. then you have instrucors for the basics and should find a partner who would try also the stuff from the videos.


Basics can be very very different from one system to another.  Training in one and expecting it to transfer over to another is quite frankly, naive.

It's easy for people to convince themselves that they can learn thru video.  You are fooling yourself.

Better to train in a system with a good instructor, than to train on video in a system without an instructor.  Better to take up running, biking, swimming, and or weight training than to train by video without an instructor.

Video training is not better than nothing.


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## greytowhite (Feb 5, 2016)

I used to be a video junkie, still have about half a TB of ripped and _converted_ instructional videos on my external drive. Entire sets from people like Yang Jwing-Ming and Bruce Kumar Frantzis as well as many others. I can tell you right now that none of the xingyi videos I watched adequately prepared me for learning the art in person after the ming jing stage. 

There are depths to Chinese arts that are contained within the basics. There are layers, once you have passed one then the teacher shows you the same exercise but now five times more difficult because you have a _hint_ of what you're trying to achieve and getting it right is really lovely hard. I've learned three different ways to do one fist, each more difficult to understand than the last. Not applications but focus on body method. Crane is probably my favorite family of Southern Chinese styles. I can't imagine anyone getting anywhere close to where Liu Chang-I's skill without a teacher there to correct, guide, and mold that student into the proper Crane method.



BillK said:


> I've heard all these same old tired arguments before, and frankly find them tiring. Good day.



Boo hoo! People tell you the truth and you're not fond of it because you've invested money in videos. Gong fu is hard to translate - roughly "skilled work from time and effort" - because many don't understand that the skill is a product only of correct effort in that time. If you are putting the time into these arts and are truly serious you owe it to yourself to find a good teacher. The videos work best as reminders and sometimes the lectures and theory is good. There is a saying amongst experienced gong fu artists, "It has to be felt." Otherwise, enjoy your hobby, the time you put into it, and the videos you paid for but don't expect skill.


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## BillK (Feb 5, 2016)

Greytowhite, your assumptions are reaching th level of asinine, you might want to get that looked at.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2016)

BillK said:


> Greytowhite, your assumptions are reaching th level of asinine, you might want to get that looked at.


Ok, then I invite you to enlighten us.

I get it: you want to train in something specific but there are no instructors nearby.  Life ain't fair.

But if you care to justify your position (not that you need to, you can do what you want with your life and don't need to justify anything to us), I'm all ears.  Or eyes, I guess.

Here's the thing.  There are a lot of highly experienced folks here who have been around the block a few times.  You came here for the first time last Sunday and put forth a notion of training in this way, and we see serious problems with your proposal.  Instead of looking the other way, we gave you honest advice.  Don't waste your money and, more importantly, your time in a misguided effort.  You could spend years doing this and then discover that you have learned a tiny fraction of what you thought you learned, and all of it done incorrectly, with bad habits that are difficult to undo if you ever get to work with a good instructor.  What a shame.  

We are actually trying to help you avoid that mistake.  There are other options that are much better.  That is honest good advice.

Take it or leave it, but don't get upset just because our advice and our reaction is not what you had hoped for.

Further dialog is welcome.


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## MAfreak (Feb 5, 2016)

well as i wrote i'm not sure of gongfu, but normally the basics for striking and grappling are the same.
at least they should be (example body positioning and punches are same in karate, hapkido, boxing...) . sure, some chinese arts like wing chun do their own thing, but in most cases, the base is the same or there are small differences.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> well as i wrote i'm not sure of gongfu, but normally the basics for striking and grappling are the same.
> at least they should be (example body positioning and punches are same in karate, hapkido, boxing...) . sure, some chinese arts like wing chun do their own thing, but in most cases, the base is the same or there are small differences.


Among some systems their may be similar but even similarity on the surface could mask a couple dozen subtle differences that make all the difference in the world.   Among others, absolutely not at all.  My own system looks nothing like those pictures, we have a method of developing our basics that is rather unique and I am sure looks rather foreign to those who do not understand it.  

Since the OP is interested in southern white crane, every video I've ever seen of that method indicates that it too has a very specific methodology that does not at all resemble your pictures.

If you want to learn southern white crane, you need a sifu who can properly teach you southern white crane.  Not shotokan that you then hope to translate somehow.  It just doesn't work that way.


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## MAfreak (Feb 5, 2016)

that makes me curious. do you have photos of your straight strikes or something to compare with the boxing/karate-example?


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## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> that makes me curious. do you have photos of your straight strikes or something to compare with the boxing/karate-example?


I do not, personally.  However, you can do some YouTube-fu and find some poor examples.  I've honestly not seen anything that I felt was of high quality, much of it is quite bad indeed.  But at least you can see the shape of it.  However, as I say, there are many subtleties that you will not see from watching a video. If anyone just tried to copy what they saw in the videos without some serious instruction in what is really going on underneath it it would be completely worthless.  It really is not what it seems.

I train in Tibetan White Crane, a completely separate method from the southern white crane the OP is interested in.  TWC is one of three sibling methods that came out of a Tibetan method.  The other two are Hop Gar and Lama Pai.  They are not the same, but all came from the same root system and have strong similarities.

Once you view a few things I could answer some questions you may have.  I expect it will not at all look like what you believe a fighting method should look like.


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## BillK (Feb 5, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, then I invite you to enlighten us.
> 
> I get it: you want to train in something specific but there are no instructors nearby.  Life ain't fair.
> 
> ...


 The "assumption" mentioned in my post is referring to how he seems to thinm my money "has been wasted" althougg no videos are purchased...yet. The "boo hoo" comment was the "asinine" part with it's juvenile forethought. If that's the result of being "around the block", then I'd rather stay away from that particular block. Oh, this isn't my first rodeo. And, if I wanted advise on this matter, then my OP would have asked for it, which it did not. So, all the othee comments have been rather moot.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2016)

BillK said:


> The "assumption" mentioned in my post is referring to how he seems to thinm my money "has been wasted" althougg no videos are purchased...yet. The "boo hoo" comment was the "asinine" part with it's juvenile forethought. If that's the result of being "around the block", then I'd rather stay away from that particular block. Oh, this isn't my first rodeo. And, if I wanted advise on this matter, then my OP would have asked for it, which it did not. So, all the othee comments have been rather moot.


Then feel free to waste your time as you see fit.


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## MAfreak (Feb 6, 2016)

not sure if he is doing it right, but its the same base for the straight handstrike. 







but i get the point. there are many figures like in "sport-wushu", not meant for fighting, so i for myself wouldn't like to learn it without instructor, because it seems partially complicated.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 6, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> not sure if he is doing it right, but its the same base for the straight handstrike.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah and this is not sport wushu by a long shot.  And the still shot photo isn't really it, it's the complete movement that shows the method.  Anybody can find a moment in time still photo that resembles something else but the actual method is very different. It's a training mechanism that helps you understand and develop full-body connection and rotation.  And delivery of the punch in a real fight can be different from this training mechanism.  There are a lot of details from the feet on up.  If you don't understand those details and don't have someone helping you get it right, then you are simply throwing you hand backwards when punching forward.  And that would be useless and potentially damaging to your shoulders depending on how much wrong you are.  

So let's pretend you learn this method of basics with the intention of taking it and crossing over to the southern crane method.  Or to hapkido or to shotokan or to krav maga or boxing or Muay Thai or whatever or vice-versa. These are very different methods and they don't blend.


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## mograph (Feb 6, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> And the still shot photo isn't really it, it's the complete movement that shows the method.


This might be the relevant video:


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## Flying Crane (Feb 6, 2016)

mograph said:


> This might be the relevant video:


Yup.  I feel it's poorly done, very little or no connection.


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## MAfreak (Feb 6, 2016)

what i meant is the stance while straight punching. the other arm backwards instead of protecting as much of the upper body as possible, is anyway a bad idea in a fight.  i think the whole movement/form is kind of gymnastics? in the book "kung fu elements" by shou-yu-liang and wen-ching wu they describe kung fu/wushu as split in two parts; the artistic style and sanshou for fighting.


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## mograph (Feb 6, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> in the book "kung fu elements" by shou-yu-liang and wen-ching wu they describe kung fu/wushu as split in two parts; the artistic style and sanshou for fighting.


The authors did split wushu into taolu and sanshou (p.139), but where did they make the split you describe?


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## MAfreak (Feb 6, 2016)

must be somewere in the intro.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 6, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> what i meant is the stance while straight punching. the other arm backwards instead of protecting as much of the upper body as possible, is anyway a bad idea in a fight.  i think the whole movement/form is kind of gymnastics? in the book "kung fu elements" by shou-yu-liang and wen-ching wu they describe kung fu/wushu as split in two parts; the artistic style and sanshou for fighting.


Yup, this is not wushu, but it illustrate my point:you can't understand this over a video medium.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 6, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> what i meant is the stance while straight punching. the other arm backwards instead of protecting as much of the upper body as possible, is anyway a bad idea in a fight.  i think the whole movement/form is kind of gymnastics? in the book "kung fu elements" by shou-yu-liang and wen-ching wu they describe kung fu/wushu as split in two parts; the artistic style and sanshou for fighting.


I only had a moment with my previous response, I've got another moment to further my thoughts.

This form is not gymnastics, it is not modern performance wushu.  It is a form that trains fighting principles and techniques.  The arm back, as I described, is a training mechanism that helps you understand full body connection and rotation.  I don't expect you to understand it thru the medium of video.  Only face-to-face instruction will enable you to understand it.  That is my whole point in this.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 6, 2016)

I posted this in another thread, seems it's relevant here:

In the 1950s cultural revolution in China, traditional fighting methods were suppressed and outlawed and a new, modern approach was created by the government.  This new approach was based on the old methods, but with one very important difference:  it was not intended for fighting.  Instead it was intended to be a national performance competition and sport method that was inspired by the old martial methods.  This is where the flowery forms come into the picture, which were only intended as a floor routine and not as a tool for training real fighting methods.  The application of the movements were ignored, and  the movements themselves were altered in favor of aesthetics.  They look pretty but the structure and technique was undermined so it is no longer a viable fighting method.

This is known as "Modern Wushu".  These are what you see in the big tournaments with lots of fancy and flowery forms with leaps and jumps and acrobatics.  Some of these people are outstanding athletes, but they do not train in a real fighting method.

The forms found in the older, traditional fighting methods are not flowery like this, as they are meant to be a functional training tool.  Unfortunately many people do not understand the difference.  Some sifu teach the modern wushu forms and let their students believe they are learning traditional fighting methods.  That is a shame and possibly a fraud it done deliberately and knowingly.  Some people just don't even know what it is that they have been taught, and believe it is one thing when in reality it is the other.  Some people believe the modern forms are viable fighting methods, not knowing they were never even intended to be.


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## MAfreak (Feb 7, 2016)

this is exaclty what i mean. its important to clarify the differences to everyone. otherwise they get dangerous false confidence (in case of a self-defense-situation). but its the same in many other martial arts, its in karate too.


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## clfsean (Feb 7, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> This form is not gymnastics, it is not modern performance wushu.  It is a form that trains fighting principles and techniques.  The arm back, as I described, is a training mechanism that helps you understand full body connection and rotation.  I don't expect you to understand it thru the medium of video.  Only face-to-face instruction will enable you to understand it.  That is my whole point in this.



This. End of story.


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## gaoshou (Apr 15, 2016)

PM sent


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