# Submission Judo???



## chufeng (Jan 14, 2003)

What in the world is "Submission Judo?"

Kano Jigaro Sensei must be break-dancing in his grave...
Take the Judo label off...if you want to call it Brazilian Jujitsu Submission whatever...go ahead...but leave the "gentle way" alone...

...and, WHO is the head instructor???
a Blue belt???

Maybe I'm going way out on a limb here...but if this NEW school has legitimacy, please post...there are enough McDojos in this area.

    
chufeng


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## sweeper (Jan 14, 2003)

unless I'm mistaken..  isn't judo a submision sport by nature?


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## chufeng (Jan 14, 2003)

Good play on words...

I think these guys are going for "submission holds" though...

Since the days of Anton Geesink in the 60s, Judo has become less and less like the art Kano Sensei envisioned...Kano said that true Budo was what O-Sensei was teaching...

I am resolved to the fact that Judo is now more a sport than a "Do" but I still get my hackles up when someone wants to bastardize it more than it has already been bastardized...

If a LARGE group of Judoka show up and say that it's OK...I'll back off...but judo was my first asian martial art...and I still dream of the ideal that Kano Sensei was working for.

:asian:
chufeng


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## ace (Jan 14, 2003)

BEFORE THERE WAS KANO.
------------------------------------

Now as far as the belt thing goes
I think Royce Gracie said it best
The Belt only covers 2 inches of your But
The Rest is up to U.
---------------------------------------------------
Y not roll with them/him & find truth in the art?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Also Kano Changed the Rules to Judo to suit 
The Throwing aspect of the Art When
Kosen Judo was Wining all the Turnament
With Ne-Waza{Fact}
_______________________________________________

I've Never Heard of Submisson Judo
But it's only a Name.


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## arnisador (Jan 14, 2003)

I too thought of Kosen Judo when I read this.


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## Hollywood1340 (Jan 14, 2003)

O sensei? Of whom do you speak? Also Kosen developed after Kodokan Judo, in the mid nineteen twenties. And no, regarless of whether you put in all caps or not, the world had seen nothing like Kodokan Judo before hand. Kano developed a new way of motion entirely, making Kodokan Judo stand out amoung many arts. Yes there were forms of traditional JuiJitsu but that is NOTHING like the BJJ of today, which is basicaly Judo Ne Waza, taken to a scientific extreme (In a pure grappling match, my money is on the BJJer depending on rules and set up, from standing, it's anybodys ball game, and of course under judo rules, a judoka has advantage).


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## yilisifu (Jan 15, 2003)

I must agree with Chufeng and Hollywood.  Dr. Kano wanted to bring the gentle art into the schools in Japan and also make it a competitive sport.  He was a wonderful genius and succeeded masterfully.

   But the judo of today isn't at all what he taught or envisioned.  We used to call the modern version "Brute-do".

   Kano was a tiny fellow but his skill was magnificent and it is said that grappling with him was like wrestling an empty jacket.

   When I was in igh school, I was lucky enough to train briefly with a British judo instructor who'd trained under G. Koizumi, one of Kano's students and one of the last of the great judo masters.  This fellow's skill was incredible.  If he touched you, you were about to spend some quality "air time."

   Too bad such teachers are gone now.  The martial arts world really needs them.


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## Bod (Jan 15, 2003)

> When I was in igh school, I was lucky enough to train briefly with a British judo instructor who'd trained under G. Koizumi, one of Kano's students and one of the last of the great judo masters. This fellow's skill was incredible. If he touched you, you were about to spend some quality "air time."



My teacher trained under Koizumi! In fact his wife is Koizumi's daughter.

It is great having a teacher who is this good, it's just a shame I don't have the talent to learn everything he has to teach.


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## yilisifu (Jan 15, 2003)

Please stay at it!  You have a very rare opportunity there!  Koizumi was one of judo's greatest masters!


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## ace (Jan 15, 2003)

Was practise 200 years before The Birth of Kano


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## Despairbear (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> *O sensei? Of whom do you speak?  *




I belive he is reffering to the founder of Aikido.


Despair Bear


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## Hollywood1340 (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Despairbear _
> *I belive he is reffering to the founder of Aikido.
> 
> 
> Despair Bear *



Ah, then no. Judo and Aikido differ greatly in the essense of "Budo".


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## chufeng (Jan 15, 2003)

Kano Sensei was awed by O-Sensei's abilities...

Although the arts differ as they are practiced today...many of the principles are the same...yielding, blending, redirecting, leading...


:asian:
chufeng


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## Abbax8 (Jan 15, 2003)

Here's an interesting article. http://judoinfo.com/kano7.htm

                                                                 Peace
                                                                   Dennis


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## Hollywood1340 (Jan 15, 2003)

Judo can be viewed IMO moreso as a battlefield art. Granted some of these are changes came about during WWII, but I think you'll see. Today when you step on the mat, you have once chance, the "Sudden Death". Then it's over. It's almost kill or be killed. Judo Shiai is hard. You're opponent is nothing more then an obstacle in your path towards victory. You wan to hurt them. You care nothing of their safty, save for the rules laid down for competition. They should know how to fall.
In judo we don't speak of "Ki" much. IMO Ki does exist, I've experianced it, but for most Judoka it's a non issue as it relates to our art.
I think it boils down to a few things from this mans perspective:
1. Judo is an art, but practiced as sport. 
2. The name Judo did exist before Kano, but Kodokan Judo did not.
3. Judo when intorduced was new.
4. Many modern arts (Post 1882) can trace some of their ways of thought, thinking, and most importantly, movement to Judo.
5. Budo is for war. Judo competition is war.
6. Zen Judo is something else, but it is not Judo.
7. BJJ has Judo Roots. BJJ and traditional Japensese JJ are nothing alike.
8. BJJ's arsenal is vast, but lacks the options of Judo IMO
9. Judo is niether better, nor worse then any othe art. It all depens on teacher, situation, and what you're in it for.
10. Judo is fundemtanlly diffrent, yet very much the same as all arts.
You can read a very good account of how KODOKAN Judo came about HERE 

P.S. I'm an elitist Judo Jock, does it show? :rofl:


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## chufeng (Jan 15, 2003)

As I said earlier, my first Asian martial art was Judo...
Practiced it for five years...read everything about it that I could get my hands on...

Judo today is very different from the judo Kano Sensei taught...and that change started in 1968 when a Scandnavian heavyweight stomped a high ranking Japanese judoka by using BRUTE force...

The original intent of Judo was more in line with O-Sensei's teaching...but the competition part, once it left Japan, changed it dramatically...

What you train in, Hollywood, is NOT the judo Kano Sensei intended...doesn't make it bad...in fact the grappling skills are VERY valuable in a street situation (maybe more valuable than most (not all) striking arts)...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Hollywood1340 (Jan 15, 2003)

I don't train in competition Judo  Drawing a line at bringing O-Sensei into this. I respect the man imensely, but he and judo are pretty unrelated. Kodokan Judo was created before O-Sensei was born, and Aikido was named over thirty years hence. Kodokan Judo has been from the begining about competition, two people fighting, each attacking, each trying to win. It was designed by Kano-Sensei as such for sport, and education of the masses in a Martial Art/Sport. I train with an Aikido Shodan, and we've had numerous disccusions on the diffrence's between our two arts. Each has their place. It's like icec cream of diffrent flavors.  And yes, Kodokan Judo, as orginaly taught is very diffrent from how it's taught today. There are schools I understand that teach you NOT to breakfall, saying in breeds weakness! (Shakes head) Crazy Cuz!


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## yilisifu (Jan 16, 2003)

I'm old enough to remember when Anton Geesink stunned the judo world, although his technique was horrible (his strength made up for it)....I was 19 at the time.

   Judo without breakfalls?  THAT'S scary!


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