# Should I be addressed as Sifu?



## masherdong (Dec 9, 2009)

Hello everyone.  I had a question that I thought that I would bring up here.  I have been training in kung fu and am an Asst Instructor for kung fu.  Now, this past summer, I became a certified instructor in krav maga.  After coming back to school, many of our students started calling me Sifu.  My Sifu for kung fu told me no, and that I am to be addressed as Si Hing.  So, my question is, why cant I be addressed as Sifu?  I am a teacher or instructor, just not in kung fu.

How different is that than the medical field?  If you are a Dr. for Cardiology or Dr of Pediatrics, doesnt matter, you are still addressed as Dr. so why should that matter in my case??

Your thoughts are appreciated.


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## jks9199 (Dec 9, 2009)

masherdong said:


> Hello everyone.  I had a question that I thought that I would bring up here.  I have been training in kung fu and am an Asst Instructor for kung fu.  Now, this past summer, I became a certified instructor in krav maga.  After coming back to school, many of our students started calling me Sifu.  My Sifu for kung fu told me no, and that I am to be addressed as Si Hing.  So, my question is, why cant I be addressed as Sifu?  I am a teacher or instructor, just not in kung fu.
> 
> How different is that than the medical field?  If you are a Dr. for Cardiology or Dr of Pediatrics, doesnt matter, you are still addressed as Dr. so why should that matter in my case??
> 
> Your thoughts are appreciated.


I'd say your too hung up on titles, kind of like a Ph.D. who insists on being addressed as "doctor" at all times.  In the US, outside of academic and some formal settings, only medical doctors are commonly addressed as Dr.  

If you are teaching krav maga, you're the teacher.  If you're in kung fu class -- you are a student.


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2009)

Just to confuse things lol, here consultants are called Mr. not doctor! It's supposed to denote, respectfully, their experience and high position!


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## punisher73 (Dec 9, 2009)

Because usually the title of "sifu" is to denote an instructor in kung fu.  It is a way to designate a hierarchy and level of experience for students.

You earned the title of "instructor" in krav maga, and when instructing that or teaching classes it would be appropriate.

In the same vein, you list being a purple belt in kenpo.  Would it be appropriate for students to call you an instructor in that style?  Nope, you don't have the experience and knowledge yet in that style.  Same thing for you in kung fu.  You are on the way, but are not there yet in your training and experience.


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## mograph (Dec 9, 2009)

If there's any doubt in your mind or in the mind of an objective observer, I'd err on the side of humility: _not_ to be called "Sifu".

In my opinion, just being an instructor doesn't make you a Sifu. Technically, in Mandarin, it makes you a _laoshi_. To be a Sifu, to my mind, requires having passed through a number of toughening leadership experiences leading to a deeper understanding of the art combined with a humility that comes with seasoning and maturity. 

Another thing: I think that being prematurely addressed as "sifu" would devalue the title. 

Finally, I think that when you're worthy of the title, you'll know it, but paradoxically, it won't matter.


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## Nolerama (Dec 9, 2009)

You've got a lot of styles under your belt...

How about being addressed as "Coach"?


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## masherdong (Dec 9, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Because usually the title of "sifu" is to denote an instructor in kung fu. It is a way to designate a hierarchy and level of experience for students.


 

Not true.  I have heard school teachers and music teachers being addressed as Sifu as well.  My chinese relatives feel that I should be addressed as Sifu because it is my highest title and I am teaching.


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## terryl965 (Dec 9, 2009)

masherdong said:


> Not true. I have heard school teachers and music teachers being addressed as Sifu as well. My chinese relatives feel that I should be addressed as Sifu because it is my highest title and I am teaching.


 
Well to be honest with you Masherdog, you are not the Sifu of the school your instructor is. If you would like people o call you Sifu than go and open a school and pronounce yourself that title, otherwise just go and train and forget about something so small and has no merit anyway.

My students call me Master or Sabanim simply because I am and I own and operate my school but most importantly they call me that because I have earned there respect both on the matt and outside the school, my humbleness over the years have given me the respect of my peers as well.

You seem to be hung up by even posting a board to ask this question is simply improper to me. I hope your insurcurities will not be your downfall in the Arts.


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## KELLYG (Dec 9, 2009)

I was under the impression that the Main or Head, or Chief instructor should be called Sifu, or in TKD Master. Because you are an in instructor, in a different style, does not mean that you are sifu in kung-fu. The Title Sifu would be reserved for your teacher, unless he thinks it is OK for you to be addressed that way.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 9, 2009)

I have taught, I was even labeled a teacher by my first sifu and I also help my Taiji sifu teach and as far as I'm concerned my first name is fine. 

My Taiji sifu and my sanda sifu both use their first names and that is fine with me.

Sifu is just a title; don't get hung up on titles

But is it is a title question you are not a sifu in your Kung Fu class only your sifu is therefore no you are not a sifu there.

If my Taiji sifu's sifu were still alive and he went back to help him teach he would not be a sifu there, he is a student of his sifu and at best a martial arts older brother to all of his sifu's students.

However if I walked into the room he is my sifu and his sifu is my sigung. I would be the only one in the room calling him sifu since I am the only one that is his student. All the rest are his sifu's students and I am their younger brother or possibly whatever the term in CMA for nephew is since they would all be 5th generation and I am 6th. Traditional CMA etiquette can get rather confusing


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## Jdokan (Dec 9, 2009)

I would suggest you look to obtain greater knowledge in your art and not a title.  Students will know how to refer to you based upon that... I would never refer to myself as Master...yet my that is what my students call me....Personally I think the whole title thing is kind of silly....I prefer to train and exchange.....


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## masherdong (Dec 9, 2009)

> You seem to be hung up by even posting a board to ask this question is simply improper to me. I hope your insurcurities will not be your downfall in the Arts.


 
Not insecure, just curious.  Your right, it's just a title.  I ask this cause my in-laws thought that I should.  Heck, everyone in kung fu addresses me as Mr. Mark and I am ok with that.  

I was trying to see why they would think I should and that is why I thought about doctors and tried to do a similarity.

I'm with you Terry I just want to train too. But, if my in-laws are giving me an earful, I would like to know why.


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## Tensei85 (Dec 9, 2009)

Actually there are two different Sifu(s) in Chinese which I'm sure your aware of. &#24107;&#29238; Sifu - Which is your Sifu/directly related to you,
&#24107;&#20613; Sifu which is the title that you refer to other including chefs, cab drivers whatever/whoever is a leader in there specialized field.

Then given as Xue stated Sifu in the case of genealogy: You can't be a Sifu of the students in the school when they are already a student(s) of your Sifu which makes them in lineage rights the same generation as you are. But then when you use the term Sifu it would cause unwanted confusion based on genealogy. But your the Sihing or even Dai Sihing which a lot of times does several times more work than the Sifu in a lot of Schools anyways. Now when you go out & have an actual Sifu to To Dai relationship with those not students of your Sifu than they can call you their Sifu.

So I'm not saying that your not a Sifu level by your systems evaluation or what not, but in this case it would not be politically correct. 

Good luck with traning.


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## masherdong (Dec 9, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Actually there are two different Sifu(s) in Chinese which I'm sure your aware of. &#24107;&#29238; Sifu - Which is your Sifu/directly related to you,
> &#24107;&#20613; Sifu which is the title that you refer to other including chefs, cab drivers whatever/whoever is a leader in there specialized field.


 

Yes, I believe this is why my in-laws were saying this.  Like I said, I was just curious and wanted to know why they were yelling at me for not being called a Sifu.

Oh, by the way, I do have my own location and teach my own students.


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## terryl965 (Dec 9, 2009)

masherdong said:


> Not insecure, just curious. Your right, it's just a title. I ask this cause my in-laws thought that I should. Heck, everyone in kung fu addresses me as Mr. Mark and I am ok with that.
> 
> I was trying to see why they would think I should and that is why I thought about doctors and tried to do a similarity.
> 
> I'm with you Terry I just want to train too. But, if my in-laws are giving me an earful, I would like to know why.


 
I understand your delima and only hope the best possible outcome for you and your inlaws.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 9, 2009)

masherdong said:


> I'm with you Terry I just want to train too. But, if my in-laws are giving me an earful, I would like to know why.


 
If it helps; 

My Sanda sifu is trained in and from Heilongjiang and he does not really want to be called sifu at all and he has been training Sanda for over 30 years.

My Taiji sifu is also from China and spent all of his taiji training life in Hong Kong and does not mind being called sifu but most certainly does not expect it (generally goes by his first name) and he has been doing taiji and only taiji for more than 50 years. The only time he gets demanding about titles is of you try and call him grandmaster... then he demands that you stop calling him that


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2009)

If your sifu says no, then the answer is no.  There is no further discussion.

Whatever happens outside the kwoon, when you are doing Krav Maga, or Kajukenbo or something else, is separate from the kwoon, and is subject to its own rules.


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## clfsean (Dec 9, 2009)

One school... one sifu. End of story really. 

Your teachers school... he's the sifu & you're sihing to everybody under you. If you need a title at his school, sihing is best. If that's not ok, try gaau lin.

Your school... you're the sifu & your sifu is your student's sigung.


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## Carol (Dec 9, 2009)

I was once in a meeting with a few PhD level scientists, and a couple of vice presidents. The company had a policy of not utilizing the title of "Doctor" at any time.  (There were many scientists there with a terminal degree).  

At the end of the meeting, one of our newer scientists took issue with the policy and asked why he couldn't be called "Dr." after working very hard for his science degree.  His VP just looked at him, shrugged, and said "Big deal.  I have three of them.  From MIT.  What are they going to call me?  DoctorDoctorDoctor?  Doctor Cubed?"

The complaining scientist never brought the subject up again.   

Remember, part of growing in to a leadership role is knowing how to manage other people's expectations, as well as your own.


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## yak sao (Dec 9, 2009)

If your si-fu is also the si-fu of the others in the class then you are classmates, which makes you their si-hing. Even if you do go on to earn the title of sifu from your si-fu, you will always be their si-hing.


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## dianhsuhe (Dec 9, 2009)

masherdong said:


> My chinese relatives feel that I should be addressed as Sifu because it is my highest title and I am teaching.


 
1. Your Sifu made the decision, and of story.

2. Concentrate on training not titles

3. Your chinese relatives? Maybe they can talk to your Sifu on your behalf? My American relatives feel that I should be addressed as jacka$$ because it fits my personality, and I AM teaching.

4. Has it occurred to you to stick with one system and advance to a well deserved rank/title?

5. The students at the school, or whichever school you are training at this week, may misunderstand your new moniker and ask you a question that you are not qualified to answer.

Warmly,
Jamey


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## jks9199 (Dec 9, 2009)

masherdong said:


> Not true.  I have heard school teachers and music teachers being addressed as Sifu as well.  My chinese relatives feel that I should be addressed as Sifu because it is my highest title and I am teaching.


Ah...  But it's not *YOUR *class, and it's not *THEIR* class.  It's your *teacher's *class.  If you don't like the rules -- you have the choice to go elsewhere.  But it is his house, and thus his rules.

He doesn't want your fellow students to address you as sifu.  That's clear.  Maybe he's simply jealous; maybe he's got a lesson about titles he's trying to teach you.  I don't know; I don't know him.  But, again, you seem awful hung up on a title.  Maybe you should give that some thought...


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## dianhsuhe (Dec 10, 2009)

What art(s) are you currently studying? "*Primary Art and Ranking* Kajukenbo - 2nd DanN. Praying Mantis - 1st Brown SashAKKI Kenpo - Purple10th Planet JJ - White"  
Hey I know everyone is different but you look like a belt collector to me-  Many systems start to get REALLY good and juicy at Nidan, s why dabble so much?

As a side note, you mentioned the reason for wanting to be addressed as SIfu was your recent Krav certification, why not list that as a primary art?  What about your Kaju?  Does Nidan not= Sifu?

Just trying to understand your view--


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## masherdong (Dec 10, 2009)

dianhsuhe said:


> What art(s) are you currently studying? "*Primary Art and Ranking* Kajukenbo - 2nd DanN. Praying Mantis - 1st Brown SashAKKI Kenpo - Purple10th Planet JJ - White"
> Hey I know everyone is different but you look like a belt collector to me- Many systems start to get REALLY good and juicy at Nidan, s why dabble so much?
> 
> As a side note, you mentioned the reason for wanting to be addressed as SIfu was your recent Krav certification, why not list that as a primary art? What about your Kaju? Does Nidan not= Sifu?
> ...


 
Wow!  I need to update.  Kajukenbo I have not trained in since 1996.  I know it seems I have dabbled and it seems like I am just a belt collector, but in reality it is because of me moving from place to place and finding something that was similar to what I have already been training in.  Right now, I do both Krav and Kung Fu.  I am mostly teaching krav right now.  Nidan in Kajukenbo is Sibok.  Sandan is Sifu.


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## Tensei85 (Dec 10, 2009)

masherdong said:


> Wow! I need to update. Kajukenbo I have not trained in since 1996. I know it seems I have dabbled and it seems like I am just a belt collector, but in reality it is because of me moving from place to place and finding something that was similar to what I have already been training in. Right now, I do both Krav and Kung Fu. I am mostly teaching krav right now. Nidan in Kajukenbo is Sibok. Sandan is Sifu.


 
Ahh, Now I can understand your question a little clearer. As in Kajukenbo though may use Chinese terminology for ranking it is however not traditional lineage ranking. So maybe in that system Belt ranking would equal Title ranking but in TCMA it does not. 

Chinese Genealogy rights here's a brief list.

&#24107;&#29238; - Sifu - Shifu - Father/Teacher
&#24107;&#27597; - Simo- Shimu - Sifu's wife 
&#24107;&#20844;- Sigung- Shigong - Sifu's Sifu (Grandfather Teacher)
&#24107;&#20804;- Sihing- Shixiong - Older brother
&#24107;&#24351;- Sidai- Shidi - Younger brother
&#24107;&#22992;- Sije- Shijie - Older sister
&#24107;&#22969;- Simui- Shimei -Younger sister
&#24107;&#20271;- Sibaak- Shibo - Older uncle (Sifu's sihing)
&#24107;&#21460;- Sisuk- Shishu - Younger uncle (Sifu's sidai)
&#24466;&#24351;- Todai- Tudi - Students 
&#24466;&#20356;- Toujat- Tuzhi - Nephew (masculine form)
&#24466;&#23018;- Toujat- Tuzhi - Niece (feminine form) 
&#24107;&#22826;&#20844;- Sitaigung- Shitaigong - Sifu's Sigung
&#24107;&#22826;- Sitai- Sigung's wife
&#24107;&#20613;- Sifu- Shifu - Different Sifu other than one that is related to you. 
&#24107;&#20804;&#24351;- Martial Arts brothers as a group (Sihingdai) (Shixiongdi)
&#24466;&#23403;- Tou Syun- Tu Sun - Grand students

Take note these titles do not equal belt earnings but however equate to lineage positions in your family. I know a lot of more modernized systems have been taking on Chinese terms to equate with belt rankings to equal status but traditionally this is really unacceptable. 

For instance I wouldn't refer to someone in my class per say we had belt rankings as a Sibaak(Whatever....) or Sifu(Master) or Sigung(Grandmaster) or .... because if they are my classmates then they are my Sihing(s) or Sidai(s), Sije(s) or Simui(s) and then the Sifu. 

But we don't equate the titles with belt rankings I have no idea how or why that was started but it seems somewhat common now adays.


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## Tensei85 (Dec 10, 2009)

By the way congrats on becoming a Sifu, how long have you been teaching? & how's the School/Club?


Enjoy your training,


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## masherdong (Dec 10, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Ahh, Now I can understand your question a little clearer. As in Kajukenbo though may use Chinese terminology for ranking it is however not traditional lineage ranking. So maybe in that system Belt ranking would equal Title ranking but in TCMA it does not.
> 
> Chinese Genealogy rights here's a brief list.
> 
> ...


 

Thank you for the clarification!


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## masherdong (Dec 10, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> By the way congrats on becoming a Sifu, how long have you been teaching? & how's the School/Club?
> 
> 
> Enjoy your training,


 
I have been teaching for awhile, but, in kung fu.  I just started my location back in Mid October, and I am enjoying teaching krav now.


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## Ken Morgan (Dec 10, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Chinese Genealogy rights here's a brief list.
> 
> &#24107;&#29238; - Sifu - Shifu - Father/Teacher
> &#24107;&#27597; - Simo- Shimu - Sifu's wife
> ...


 
*BRIEF* list????

OMG. Japanese MA are much easier, I either call them Sensei or "Dave"!!


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> *BRIEF* list????
> 
> OMG. Japanese MA are much easier, I either call them Sensei or "Dave"!!


 
Definitely easier lol! 

do you have female Sifus and if so what are their husbands called?


I'm a fan of an author called Han Suyin, she wrote novels but also her autobiography where she talks about her Chinese family by title not name. It takes a bit of working out who is who when you aren't used to it.


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## Jimi (Dec 10, 2009)

Please take the following post lightly as i am playing DEVILS ADVOCATE so to speak.

If you are of the rank of Sibok in Kajukenbo, the use that rank title when in Kaju, when you are of rank in Krav the go by that ranks title when in Krav. If in your instructors kung fu class he says you are not Sifu in that system, honor that or be dishonored yourself. I agree with Flyingcrane.

If your inlaws are insisting you to be called Sifu I ask, what rank are they that they insist on such a title for you to be addressed by? That sounds like you could be hiding behind their insistence for the title as a copout. As another poster mentioned, some chefs, cab drivers etc are addressed as Sifu, are your inlaws leveling you to the title of a cab driver? LOL. Only kidding, and I jest simply to see if you are too easily upset by this, and if so then I feel you are too hung up on being called SIFU.

Your own offering of justification was very early on mentioning instructor level rank in Krav Maga, this is title chasing in my opinion. If I am off the mark it should not sting you, if you retort in an upset manner many can see that maybe this is the case.

I am a little sensitive to rank crossing titles (In many cases there are people breaking their own arm patting themselves on the back) I trained to the rank of San Dan in TKD and that does not make me a SIFU. I am Si Hing in JF/JKD and I do not use my earned title Saya in Thaing/Bando as excuse to be addressed as Sifu. This across the board, I am instructor so I declare myself SIFU is bogus (Not insisting you are doing this and keep in mind an upset retort will make you appear this way) instructor rank in one art is instructor rank in that one art, not accross the board.

I have seen a fool trying to uplift himself so much, that he started his own system without a system (He knows who he is) and declared himself Sifu  and published books and DVDs (years before eventually earning Sifu rank from Sifu Randy Williams) using his years in Karate & TKD ranking to 5th Dan as base for his assertion that he was to be called SIFU. This is ingenuous. 

Example, If someone were to use there rank as instructor in Krav Maga for reason to be called SAYA (in Thaing/Bando), I am certain that there are members here involved in the ABA (like myself) who would have seroius issue with that. I hope you understand how some of us could see it APPEARS that you could be a title chaser. Just the mention of Doctors title, inlaws insistence and instructor rank in other systems as base for the title Sifu is suspect. 

Your Kung Fu instructor said in his system you are not Sifu, so do not fall into the mistake of bad form manners by even asking your SIFU if you should be called Sifu due to instructor rank in another system. Very very bad form. 

Again, if I am off the mark, brush me off, but understand part of my assertion is to see if you argue the point which defines you in a much different way than in a title. I hope I am understood.


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## masherdong (Dec 10, 2009)

Jimi said:


> Please take the following post lightly as i am playing DEVILS ADVOCATE so to speak.
> 
> If you are of the rank of Sibok in Kajukenbo, the use that rank title when in Kaju, when you are of rank in Krav the go by that ranks title when in Krav. If in your instructors kung fu class he says you are not Sifu in that system, honor that or be dishonored yourself. I agree with Flyingcrane.
> 
> ...


 
Life is too short to be upset.  I am fine with what my Sifu wants people to call me in the school.  It is just when the in-laws were arguing with me when I thought of this and thought that I would get my fellow martial artists' opinions.  So, no, not upset at you or anyone. Actually, I'm learning a lot from this thread.


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## Jimi (Dec 10, 2009)

PEACE then bro, I am glad to see that good attitude in you. I hope you can forgive the way i posted to see your character. I respect the earned titles you have and hope that someday you kung fu sifu sees fit you allow you to earn the title Sifu within his system.

Train well, be safe and have a great new year.


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## masherdong (Dec 10, 2009)

Jimi said:


> PEACE then bro, I am glad to see that good attitude in you. I hope you can forgive the way i posted to see your character. I respect the earned titles you have and hope that someday you kung fu sifu sees fit you allow you to earn the title Sifu within his system.
> 
> Train well, be safe and have a great new year.


 
Thanks, no worries.


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## ggg214 (Dec 10, 2009)

the title shi fu is very strictly used in CMA's tradition, IN CHINA.
only a disciple, after a certain procedure(koutou&#30933;&#22836; and respectfully hand over a tea to your teacher and he drinks &#25964;&#33590; ), can call his teacher shi fu. sometimes, shi fu will invite many local masters to join the event, it means that you are the one who represent the style and your master. 
if you want to be a shifu, you will ask your shifu for approval(&#20986;&#24072. you shifu will consider whether you are strong enough, whether you will not be shamed to your school, to your shifu.and whether you at least will not easily be defeat. 
all in all, this is based on CMA's tradition, in china. i don't how it's going outside.


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## clfsean (Dec 10, 2009)

ggg214 said:


> the title shi fu is very strictly used in CMA's tradition, IN CHINA.
> only a disciple, after a certain procedure(koutou&#30933;&#22836; and respectfully hand over a tea to your teacher and he drinks &#25964;&#33590; ), can call his teacher shi fu. sometimes, shi fu will invite many local masters to join the event, it means that you are the one who represent the style and your master.
> if you want to be a shifu, you will ask your shifu for approval(&#20986;&#24072. you shifu will consider whether you are strong enough, whether you will not be shamed to your school, to your shifu.and whether you at least will not easily be defeat.
> all in all, this is based on CMA's tradition, in china. i don't how it's going outside.



Bai si is common here in the US as well.


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## Tensei85 (Dec 11, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Definitely easier lol!
> 
> do you have female Sifus and if so what are their husbands called?


 
Yes, a term Sifu can also be used for females. The Husband is generally called Si San or Shi Jeong... (But there's other variations as well)


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