# Here is a hypothetical situation



## SFC JeffJ (Apr 20, 2006)

If you injured someone who attacked you and seriously injured him/her, would you feel it necessary to provide first aide?

For the sake of this discussion, lets assume you are morally and legally in the clear.

Jeff


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## MJS (Apr 20, 2006)

I would probably be more inclined to call the police and ems to provide the care.

Mike


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 20, 2006)

If i injured someone I would definitely call 911 so that an ambulance could administer first aid and the police could arrest whomever they think should be arrested.


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## stickarts (Apr 20, 2006)

I agree with the 911 responses. Let police and Medical folks handle it.


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 20, 2006)

Guess I should let everyone know my thoughts on the matter since I started the thread.

I think it would be bad from a tactical standpoint.  The person is still alive and you'll be distracted while trying to help him.  Could be a bad thing.

Jeff


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 20, 2006)

Im not even thinking from a tactical standpoint........more from a human standpoint....If Ive already beaten the crap out of someone, enough that it requires medical attention, I dont think I'd be worried about him getting back up and wanting to fight me again.......And from the legal standpoint, who says I'm not trying to still hurt them while giving them first aid.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 20, 2006)

I would just call 911 and let EMS handle it.  With that in mind, I would also go as far to say that I think it would be doing far more than you have to, to just leave them and not call EMS. In other words, leaving them and not at least calling EMS is morally no different than just finishing them off.


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## MA-Caver (Apr 20, 2006)

This is more of a moral question than anything else. You incapacitate someone to the point of needing medical attention. You being trained in First-Aid (and in some states are required to administer such via the Samaritan Law)... can provide succor. Do you do it? 
Emotionally you're probably still ticked off at the person for attacking you in the first place. Probably don't give a damn about how bad they're hurting and that they deserved it anyway. 
Yet where does compassion come in for the trained Martial Artist? In days of old many Martial Masters were also accomplished healers as well. One (off beat) example is a scene from the movie Karate Kid: Miyagi does that "thing" to Daniel's leg so he can continue the tournament. 
But compassion is about the willingness to provide aid because it's the "right thing" to do. 
Mercy, pity, compassion. Are these not traits that we as Martial Artists should likewise adopt? Chances are our (street) attackers won't be this way or have these attributes/virtues. So should we? Or is it simply call 911 and walk away? 

I've had a guy in Washington D.C. "jump" me with intent to take whatever it was I had on me at the time... (little did he know that I was flat broke), I managed to get away from him by using a sword stroke with my hand across their throat. He went down gagging and clutching his throat. I picked up my stuff and continued on down the street. After about a block I turned around because I was wondering ... is that guy gonna live? Can he even breathe? When I saw someone else bending down over him I told myself if the guy is in serious trouble then whomever is bending over him providing help is going to call 911 and I can be well away from here by the time help arrives. T'was a bad neighborhood to begin with but my  destination just happens to be in that neighborhood... (don't ask). 
I've not felt good about leaving the guy like that, but it would/could've been dangerous for me to linger in the area... a white guy in a predominately black neighborhood with a injured black guy on the ground, possibly dying, thus my _own_ safety was a higher priority to anything (or anyone) else at the time. 
Still, it wasn't a good feeling for the rest of the night. I've said it before I don't* like* hurting people... but will not hesitate to do so if necessary. But now,_* if *_I can do so (safely) I'll provide what assistance I can until EMS arrives.


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## MartialIntent (Apr 20, 2006)

Personally, if I have been attacked and my attacker has been injured I feel absolutely no compunction whatsoever to administer first aid except to forestall any potential legal action should they deteriorate or die. If someone has attacked me with the intent of physical damage and I am either lucky or skilled enough to put them down period, then well, what's that to me? 

I'm having a little trouble with some of the moral aloofness abounding. I live in a place where attacks do happen. If your humanity and brotherly love has the strength to shine through after either yourself or your family have been attacked well more power to you. Morally and ethically, I could care less whether my attacker lives or dies. My only concern would be the subsequent legal implications upon me. This alone may compel me to take some action but certainly nothing would be done through any sense of obligation to this individual - far from it. To that end, I'd agree with the above posts and contact the police once at a safe distance. If an ambulance were deemed necessary, I would not see that as my worry.


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## beau_safken (Apr 20, 2006)

Why would I have to be more human for someone that doesn't extend me that same curtiousy?


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## Lisa (Apr 20, 2006)

I believe that I would help them out and at the very least get them some aid.  Defending myself from this person would be one thing, not administering aid to someone even if they attacked me first is just not in my morals.  What if something happened to him after I walked away and didn't get him any aid?  I don't know if I could live with myself knowing I was responsible for ending a life.


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## Flatlander (Apr 20, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> And from the legal standpoint, who says I'm not trying to still hurt them while giving them first aid.


Interesting point here.  It could feasibly be demonstrated that you legally defended yourself, then as a result of making an error with your first aid, further injured the person thus making you liable.  Probably a better idea to call 911.

The truth of the matter is, ethically I have no problem leaving this hypothetical attacker for dead.  He should have thought about that before making a really bad choice.  But, the thing has to be reported anyway if you have any hope of defending yourself legally.  If you don't report it, and they connect you to the incident, you're hooped.  So, likely the 911 operator will ask you if the attacker needs medical attention anyway, and with that, EMS will respond.


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## still learning (Apr 20, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> If you injured someone who attacked you and seriously injured him/her, would you feel it necessary to provide first aide?
> 
> For the sake of this discussion, lets assume you are morally and legally in the clear.
> 
> Jeff


 
Hello, Off course you must give aid...we have no right to take a life..even if they try to take ours.

Common sense gotta play here too.  Best to call the police and ambulance, ...Aloha


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## KenpoTex (Apr 20, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> *Hello, Off course you must give aid...we have no right to take a life..even if they try to take ours.*
> 
> Common sense gotta play here too. Best to call the police and ambulance, ...Aloha


We have no right?  If we are in fear for our life or safety (or that of someone else) we have the right and, as far as I'm concerned, the obligation to do whatever is necessary to end the threat.  If they threaten our life, they've just made theirs forfeit.

As far as rendering aid, I have zero compassion for someone that would try to victimize me or someone I was protecting.  Calling 911 would be as far as I'd be willing to go.  Philosophy aside, trying to administer first-aid would probably put you in a vunerable position.  We've already dealt with the threat, why would we place ourselves in a situation where we could be at risk again?


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 20, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> If you injured someone who attacked you and seriously injured him/her, would you feel it necessary to provide first aide?
> 
> For the sake of this discussion, lets assume you are morally and legally in the clear.
> 
> Jeff



Yes, and I have done it. So I know once I bounce their head off the pavement, I will stick a pen in theri mouth to pull their tongue out of the back of their throat.


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## still learning (Apr 20, 2006)

Hello, In time of war..we all help all the wounded no matter which side you are on...

a policeman shoots a robber ...does he shoot him again? NO ..call for help and stops the bleeding...gives aid here.

We are not Barbarians....one day you will understand this...compassion?

"Yes" the guy tried to hurt us or kill us...and we injury  him badly...still we NEED to  help him. Call for 911.

Now if it is a rapist,aductions..I split and tell them help is on the way...and scam....You must survive first before we can call for help.

The world is not fair...but we must use our better judgement here..Aloha

PS: If you were injury badly...would you like that person to help you?


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## Phoenix44 (Apr 20, 2006)

No.


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## BrandiJo (Apr 20, 2006)

i would call 911, get police and ems here...they are better equpied then me...btoh for care of the person and not to get infected with anything weird. But me being a female...i would leave the area and get myself to safety before worrying about the other persons welfare.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 20, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, In time of war..we all help all the wounded no matter which side you are on...
> 
> a policeman shoots a robber ...does he shoot him again? NO ..call for help and stops the bleeding...gives aid here.
> 
> ...


 
The problem I see with all of this is that it was the "good" guys that were victorious. So, it is reasonable that they would show compassion and call for help after. This doesn't apply to your PS question. In that scenario the "bad" guy is the victor. I would want them to leave me alone in the first place. If they did hurt you badly (which was their intent, probably) they won't stay around to help you. You would want some bystanders to help you out. For the scumbags like rapists, child molestors, etc.. If they got "dealt with" , so be it!


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 20, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> If you injured someone who attacked you and seriously injured him/her, would you feel it necessary to provide first aide?
> 
> For the sake of this discussion, lets assume you are morally and legally in the clear.
> 
> Jeff


 
If you are not in danger by doing so (or remaining in the area) and there are not innocents who also need first aide, than, IMO, it would be morally wrong to not assist.


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## Carol (Apr 21, 2006)

One may morally and legally in the clear at the time of the fight.  One may need the authorties to ensure that one STAYS morally and legally in the clear, and not the subject of a criminal investigation or a liability suit sometime after the fact.

Whether the person needs my aid or not, I would be calling 911.  I want all the first responders by my side.  Fire fighters are often first on the scene.  They have oxygen and strong responders to lift the person out of danger.   The police can investigate and give me a report that clears my name.  The paramedics can make the determination if medical attention is needed...they are a better judge of it than I am.

The other aspect...disease is risked in a fight, I won't risk it further by not having gloves, etc. to properly treat a person.  Plus, my First Aid cert is 20 years out of date.  Much better to have the paramedics involved...even if the attacker says s/he is NOT hurt.


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## bushidomartialarts (Apr 21, 2006)

assuming i'm absolutely certain i won't be sucker punched while i'm patching the dude up, and assuming neither me nor mine need patching up ourownselves, i would administer first aid while waiting for the ems guys to show.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 21, 2006)

Morally it is the right thing to do. I was first responder trained at work, and am supposed to do it when called for. The first thing taught is situational awareness. If it is dangerous for you, wait for help. If these scenarios happened at work (which they have, just not when I was there, thank goodness) I would do it. Off site, I like to think I would. I know I would call who was needed, but, I honestly don't know if I would get invovlved. I hope I never have to find out.


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Morally it is the right thing to do. I was first responder trained at work, and am supposed to do it when called for. The first thing taught is situational awareness. If it is dangerous for you, wait for help. If these scenarios happened at work (which they have, just not when I was there, thank goodness) I would do it. Off site, I like to think I would. I know I would call who was needed, but, I honestly don't know if I would get invovlved. I hope I never have to find out.


 
Funny you should mention that. That's what the Coast Guard taught me. Situational awarenes first. A first responder is useless if he/she is incapacitated as a result of jumping in to aid without first ascertaining the situation and environment. Good point.


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## MartialIntent (Apr 21, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> PS: If you were injury badly...would you like that person to help you?


This is a good point - _of course_ we'd want help if we were injured however, we're not the party setting out with the intention of mugging, assaulting or abusing others. We'd be the "innocent" party in this hypothetical situation. I think that's the difference, isn't it?

Respects!


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## Tony (Apr 21, 2006)

I remember I was attacked when I was 17 and I'm certain they woudl ahve left me for dead! had i been more knowledgeable in Martial Arts I woudl have just left them all lying in the floor. Besides if they had been injured someone would have come by and hlped as it was a busy town.

If someone has no qualms about hurting you and leaving you for dead why should i help them! They have brought it on themselves but if you are using self defence you are only allowed to use reasonable force.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 21, 2006)

I agree, if you're attacked like what is being described, and you have to fight, you will do so, ultimately in a way that will allow you to escape (hopefully). You'll be preoccupied with fleeing after the encounter, that you won't think about them, probably.


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## knifeboy (Apr 21, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> If i injured someone I would definitely call 911 so that an ambulance could administer first aid and *the police could arrest whomever they think should be arrested*.



Even if that means you?

Anyway, i agree with calling 911, but i don't think if someone attacked me i'd be able to give them proper first-aid...


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## Hand Sword (Apr 21, 2006)

Naah.....Probably not.


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## MartialIntent (Apr 21, 2006)

knifeboy said:
			
		

> Even if that means you?
> 
> Anyway, i agree with calling 911, but i don't think if someone attacked me i'd be able to give them proper first-aid...


Yep, it might be first aid, but not maybe strictly the sort they teach in text books... That'll be the _Dim Mak_ book of first aid applications 

Seriously the law treats these assaulters and antisocials with perverse leniency, well isn't this summary justice [and justice in the higher non-legal sense]. I say if someone is gonna play street rules, they have little cause to complain when they get broke [or dead]. However, if it turns out for the worst, the law would be wholly vindicated in treating this as manslaughter which is the only reason for intervention on your attacker's behalf. So think on and dig out that _Dim Mak Methods of Resuscitation_ book...

Respects!


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## Hand Sword (Apr 21, 2006)

Better to be judged by 12......


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## MartialIntent (Apr 21, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Better to be judged by 12......


No doubt! But it's the leaving-them-for-dead or the lesser leaving-them-as-dead point that if argued well could have the pendulum swing badly against you as the original innocent party don't you think? After all, court cases aren't necessarily about the facts alone but about the clever contortion and manipulation of those facts by slick lawyers.

Whilst one might not care either way whether our attacker lives or dies, it might be a more expedient longer term solution for oneself to err on the side of prudence and bang on a tourniquet or administer CPR or whatever - the moral high-ground can thus be claimed also. Everybody's happy and nobody dies.

Respects!


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## Hand Sword (Apr 21, 2006)

Probably would be prudent, I can't afford a slick lawyer, just a public defender!


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## KenpoTex (Apr 21, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, In time of war..we all help all the wounded no matter which side you are on...


 don't get me started on this one...



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> We are not Barbarians....one day you will understand this...compassion?


Understand? meaning that I'll change my mind? I highly doubt it.



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> "Yes" the guy tried to hurt us or kill us...and we injury him badly...*still we NEED to help him*. Call for 911.


Why???



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> the world is not fair...but we must use our better judgement here..Aloha


better judgement? My better judgement tells me to get the heck out of there before his 3 buddies show up and get ticked 'cause I just dropped their friend.



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> PS: If you were injury badly...would you like that person to help you?


Somehow I don't think the "Golden Rule" applies in this situation. If I were injured badly I would appreciate some help. However, I would neither desire nor accept help from the person that just injured me (and if I had been effective, he probably wouldn't be in great shape either).


If someone feels it is their moral duty to render aid to a violent criminal who just threatened their life, so be it. Just don't expect me to do so. I realize that my views on self-defense are a little more extreme than those of many of the people here. As I stated before, I have no compassion for someone who would attack an innocent person. As far as I'm concerned they deserve whatever they get. 

As far as the possibility of being held liable for not rendering aid, you could leave the area before you called 911 and just tell the police that you left the area immediately in case your assailant had a weapon or had friends in the vicinity (which is really a pretty good idea anyway).


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## Bigshadow (Apr 21, 2006)

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> But now,_* if *_I can do so (safely) I'll provide what assistance I can until EMS arrives.


I certainly agree.  Personal safety comes first, that is why you defended yourself.  If it truely isn't safe to be there, then go.  But to know it is safe to stay and see to it the person does not die when death is not necessary, is to be the better person.

I believe in _*"Do only what is necessary, no more, no less."*_  To leave someone to die when not necessary, to me is no different than letting my anger get the best of me and finish them off while they were incapacitated and uable to do anything further.


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 21, 2006)

knifeboy said:
			
		

> Even if that means you?
> 
> Anyway, i agree with calling 911, but i don't think if someone attacked me i'd be able to give them proper first-aid...


 
Of course......if I had to defend myself it meant I had no other alternative, I am completely willing to defend my actions in a court of law. Being the person that injured them enough to need first aid and also being a first aider, there seems to be somewhat of a conflict in administering it.

Beau Safken stated, "
Why would I have to be more human for someone that doesn't extend me that same curtiousy?"

I think it boils down to owning up to your actions.......just because someone acted like an *** and had their butt handed to them......doesnt give you license to act like one too.


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## fireman00 (Apr 21, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> If you injured someone who attacked you and seriously injured him/her, would you feel it necessary to provide first aide?
> 
> For the sake of this discussion, lets assume you are morally and legally in the clear.
> 
> Jeff


 
Does the person have AIDS or Hepatits A, B or C? Would I have gloves, mask and eye protection? 

My feeling is that you should call 911 and let trained personnel take care of them.


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## still learning (Apr 21, 2006)

Hello, Very good points here!  For myself...after sitution awareness(good to always remember this-thanks guys for bringing this up).

I will call 911 and give aid especially for shock prevention. The fight is over, time to heal-both sides,mentally and physcially.

To keep on hating and wanting to destroy in your mine will make you..? worst off.  Terrorist are good at this mode of thinking.

It is over and done with...pick yourself up..be a good human being. Move on...Your life will be better for it....

Realize the other person does not know right from wrong...you do...think about it....

If it was your son/daughter  badly injury... the other person who did this can help...this is good... would you agree on this? ......Aloha


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## scottcatchot (Apr 21, 2006)

hand sword said:
			
		

> You'll be preoccupied with fleeing after the encounter, that you won't think about them, probably.


 
I think this is a good point. If i just finished fighting off an attack, my mind will be more preoccupied with getting myself to safety and watching for other attackers.  I may use  a cell phone as I am leaving to notify 911 of the attack on ME and where they can find whats left of the guy.  I think it is important to help people and render aid, but in this senario, I think i will be more concerned with getting myself and whomever is with me to safety more than pausing to evaluate how bad I may or maynot have hurt the guy


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## thescottishdude (Apr 21, 2006)

Like alot of things about self-defense it really depends on context. I'm also a very forgiving person usually so if I really hurt someone I would call 911. 

i.e. I took his knife off him and stabbed the attacker I'd call 911 so he didn't die. But if I smacked him about abit with my fists and he's bleeding then no, concusion is the least he deserves.

I think the real question is - Do you trust the police? I'd trust them to have ago at arresting me. In the UK I don't think the police care that it was self-defense they just lock up both fighters.


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## Flatlander (Apr 21, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> If it was your son/daughter badly injury... the other person who did this can help...this is good... would you agree on this? ......Aloha


No.  In this scenario, the person injured is the attacker.  If my child attacks someone and survives, they're going to have their *** handed to them when they get home....


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 22, 2006)

I agree with just calling 911.


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## knifeboy (Apr 22, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> The fight is over, time to heal-both sides,mentally and physcially.
> 
> To keep on hating and wanting to destroy in your mine will make you..? worst off. Terrorist are good at this mode of thinking.
> 
> ...


 

First off, is the fight really over? i mean, my going back to the guy might only renew the fight if he's not completely out and is looking for revenge. But let's assume he is out (which he would be if he attacked me), i don't feel under any obligation to do more than call 911, give the operator the info, and leave, it's got nothing to do with hating, etc. i just want to leave before his friends or the cops show up.


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## knifeboy (Apr 22, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> Of course......if I had to defend myself it meant I had no other alternative, I am completely willing to defend my actions in a court of law.


 
okay... that's your call, personally i wouldn't be so sure that i wouldn't end up in the slammer; american justice is, well, not always just.


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## still learning (Apr 22, 2006)

Hello, After reading all the comments?  ..I'm a little surprise by the answers.....One would think..most martial artist's will have more compassion even if we didn't start or want this fight..and we hurt them/injure them.  Most of you didn't care about the attacter and agree about calling 911.  

Your level of training/point of you life...has not reach a higher point...my opinion here...

I would suggest talking to a Priest,Your Ministers, Police Officer(who was involve in this type of fight/w injures to the bad guys),Your Master/Sensi...for their opinions, the more people of this caliper the better...Especially those of very high martial art ranks? 

I could be wrong? 

 ....being humble...showing compassion...is "God's way?  and the way of the "Martial arts".   ....Aloha


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 22, 2006)

I got the idea for this thread at a self defense clinic one of the local police departments put on.  The police said NOT to render assistance, but call 911 and wait for them and EMS to respond.  The perpetrator could try to continue the fight if he's not out.  Also, who knows what kind of blood borne pathogens he could be infected with.  You should stay.  Chances are if you were in a physical altercation with someone, you did leave evidence as to you identity behind.  If you left and the authorities find out who you are, that could be very bad.

Jeff


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## MartialIntent (Apr 22, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, After reading all the comments? ..I'm a little surprise by the answers.....One would think..most martial artist's will have more compassion even if we didn't start or want this fight..and we hurt them/injure them. Most of you didn't care about the attacter and agree about calling 911.
> 
> Your level of training/point of you life...has not reach a higher point...my opinion here...
> 
> ...


still learning, 
Often where real-life and our largely untested compassions differ is at the point of application. Few of us might argue with the ethic behind turning the other cheek but when push comes to shove that gets relegated back into "nice in theory", and it's our primal instinct for vengeance comes to the fore.

What makes the case for forgiveness and compassion even weaker in this hypothetical case is that our attacker is not an innocent that has tripped on a manhole and fallen but rather a vindictive person, intent on harming you or your family.

For me it's an odd attitude we have in our societies where we attempt to see these sort of attackers as the victims. We try to understand them and seek justifications for their behavior in their lack of opportunities as kids. 

Call 911 as JeffJ says. That's it period. For me, my one call would be to 911 - and only to ensure I exhonerate myself. I would make no call to my conscience.

Respects!


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## Henderson (Apr 22, 2006)

With these assumptions made:  1) I am legally in the clear.  2) There is no doubt that the attack will violent and potentially deadly.  3) I had no choice other than to injure the assailant to maintain self-preservation.

Then....no.  I would feel no compulsion to render any assistance whatsoever.


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## still learning (Apr 22, 2006)

Hello, It easy to get anger/mad/revengeful......we were brought up that way to think, of people trying to harm us.

That is why wars started.  Getting back by not helping the injure? ....Will make us just like them.  

In wars would you feel if wounded American soldier be kill if caught by the enemy because we kill so many of them. or not give first-aid. after all they are the enemy.  What about American soldiers who shoots and wound an enemy? ..should he finish them off...because they tried to kill us. WE DO NOT KILL the wounded/both sides. Why? compassion!

This is hard to understand....but that is the way of a person in the right mind and right thoughts.  Do not take a life..unless it cannot be help.

A person is injure...fight is over, you help them,time to heal things up..would you like this fight to go and on...or forgiveness given

American help Japan recover, we help Europeans recover, Irag we are trying to help recover.....or do we walk a away and not look back...?

the point is...we must learn forgiveness?  or we become like them...?  

Does the bible come into play here? ....Aloha


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 22, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, It easy to get anger/mad/revengeful......we were brought up that way to think, of people trying to harm us.
> 
> That is why wars started.  Getting back by not helping the injure? ....Will make us just like them.
> 
> ...



So you are saying, out of compassion, we should risk further attack or the possibility of disease?

Jeff


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## MartialIntent (Apr 22, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, It easy to get anger/mad/revengeful......we were brought up that way to think, of people trying to harm us.
> 
> That is why wars started. Getting back by not helping the injure? ....Will make us just like them.
> 
> ...


still learning,
Personally I believe very few normal civilians would have any desire to kill, however in the situation where someone has attempted to attack and damage you, it's seems somewhat contradictory to seriously injure them with your right hand and then with your left hand, administer aid to them as they lie on the ground [where you put them].

Either put them down with intent, mean it in your heart and don't get cold feet on the follow-through.

-OR-

Do not engage in any confrontation whatsoever, and willingly submit to their attack upon you, allow them to take your purse, stab you, kidnap you, rape you or kill you.

I wouldn't wish to bring religion to this - it's just unfortunate that the general view in society is that in this hypothetical situation we as innocent folk going about our business can, by an event for which we had no desire, become the bad guy.

Respects!


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 22, 2006)

knifeboy said:
			
		

> okay... that's your call, personally i wouldn't be so sure that i wouldn't end up in the slammer; american justice is, well, not always just.


 
so you would rather run away?


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 22, 2006)

still learning,

I have to say, the more I think about your references to WWII and the current foray into Iraq, the more I think they are faulty analogies.  Those were more or less designed plans that were not carried out by the men who did the fighting. 

On the tactical level, you won't find many infantrymen of any nationality that would take measures to save wounded enemy combatants.  That's what medics are for.

Like the book "Stong of Defense" (I'm very glad you turned me onto that) says, if attacked, you have to HATE your attacker.  Do you think you'd be able to just shut that emotion off to render assistance to the person who just violated your rights in such a gross, violent manner?

Jeff


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## KenpoTex (Apr 22, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, It easy to get anger/mad/revengeful......we were brought up that way to think, of people trying to harm us.
> 
> That is why wars started. Getting back by not helping the injure? ....Will make us just like them.


I don't invest that much emotion into the situation. To me someone who has chosen to threaten your safety and/or life to achieve their goals is no different than a rabid dog. They're really not worth that much consideration. If you're threatened, deal with it and move on.



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> In wars would you feel if wounded American soldier be kill if caught by the enemy because we kill so many of them. or not give first-aid. after all they are the enemy. What about American soldiers who shoots and wound an enemy? ..should he finish them off...because they tried to kill us. WE DO NOT KILL the wounded/both sides. Why? compassion!


Do you not watch the news? If we wound an Iraqi terrorist, they end up receiving medical treatment and care. If our guys are unlucky enough to fall into their hands, they end up being beheaded or dragged through the streets. The argument you're attempting to make in this case has no merit.




			
				still learning said:
			
		

> A person is injure...fight is over, you help them,time to heal things up..would you like this fight to go and on...or forgiveness given


 Once again...It's NOT a fight. We're not talking about a situation where you have been involved in a simple fistfight, or where you have merely been wronged or insulted. Forgiveness doesn't enter in to the situation. As I said before, there's no reason to dwell on it after it happens. I'm not going to walk around harboring seeds of resentment and hatred after it's over. At the same time, I could really care less about the fate of someone who would try to take my life or that of someone whom I felt a duty to protect. After successfully defending myself, I am NOT going to risk compromising my safety to give them any sort of aid beyond calling 911 (which is more than what we could expect from them).


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 22, 2006)

> I don't invest that much emotion into the situation. To me someone who has chosen to threaten your safety and/or life to achieve their goals is no different than a rabid dog. They're really not worth that much consideration. If you're threatened, deal with it and move on.


I have to agree with this statement. if the attacker was threatening my life and or safety I do not know if I would help him when he was down.  i certianly would no if i knew he would live.
Calling 911 is an option so is just getting the hell out of there if there where no witnesses


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## still learning (Apr 22, 2006)

Hello, Thank-you for your answers.  For my self...if someone attacks me and try to kill me...and I was able to defend and injure the attacker....after sitution awareness...feeling no possiblibility of fighting back...I would help that person.  

It if was you who I injure..not knowing you...I would still help. We have no right to take a life..evening if you try to take mines. The fight is over..time to heal and forgive.

This is me...most people do not understand the thinking here...that is OK...I was brought up different than most.  The Martial arts has change me and the way I do see things.

Each person has the right to choose what they want to do here....is it right or wrong.?..depends on how you were brought up.

Hoping that you will see things a little different from the norm? ...We do not want to  behave the same way as those who attack us.  Compassion is not easy,...to forgive is not easy..to move on..is not easy..life is not fair .........Aloha


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 22, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, Thank-you for your answers.  For my self...if someone attacks me and try to kill me...and I was able to defend and injure the attacker....after sitution awareness...feeling no possiblibility of fighting back...I would help that person.
> 
> It if was you who I injure..not knowing you...I would still help. We have no right to take a life..evening if you try to take mines. The fight is over..time to heal and forgive.
> 
> ...



Calling 911 is helping.  And I have to disagree with you about right and wrong having to do with how you were brought up.  I believe right and wrong are objective, not subjective.

Compassion is easy, when the person deserves it.  A violent criminal neither deserves it nor will receive it from me.

Jeff


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## still learning (Apr 22, 2006)

Hello, Only in Amercia the prisoners (bad guys) get so much attention, and rights.  At the avg: cost of $32,000 per year per prisoner, keep them lock -up.

With aveage of 70% release, recommit crimes again and again..

Still when someone is injure....we must help here...If you call 911...means you care...you do not have to do more....Aloha


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 23, 2006)

so, I was in a fight with someone who attacked me, the attacking party was injured badly during the fight.........do I run away and leave Mr. A-hole to fight another day, or do I call the police and EMS and make sure he stands trial and gets what is coming to him in a court of law?
I will take my chances with a court of law.......next time it may be someone defenseless that becomes the object of their aggression.


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## KenpoTex (Apr 23, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> It if was you who I injure..not knowing you...I would still help. *We have no right to take a life..evening if you try to take mines.* The fight is over..time to heal and forgive.
> 
> This is me...most people do not understand the thinking here...that is OK...I was brought up different than most. The Martial arts has change me and the way I do see things.


If that's what you believe and that belief "works" for you, more power to you.  However, when you make statements like *"We have no right to take a life..even if you try to take mine" *you are making a "blanket" statment and trying to impose your own morality on others.



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> Hoping that you will see things a little different from the norm? ...We do not want to behave the same way as those who attack us. Compassion is not easy,...to forgive is not easy..to move on..is not easy..life is not fair .........Aloha


 1. I think those of us that are against rendering aid DO think a little different than the "norm."  The popular "PC" attitude is that we shouldn't resist or use force even if we are threatened.  
2. We're not behaving the same way as those who attacked us...We _didn't_ attack them.
3. Compassion and Forgiveness...see my previous post.
4. Moving on IS easy.  In fact, that's exactly what most of us are proposing...put him down and MOVE ON!  Preferably as fast as possible (yes, I'm being facetious...).



			
				still learning said:
			
		

> Still when someone is injure....we must help here...If you call 911...means you care...*you do not have to do more*....Aloha


 No, I wouldn't call 911 'cause I care.  I'd do it to cover my butt.
And, if we don't have to do more, then what the heck have we been debating?  Most of us agree that we'd call 911 for the scumbag.


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 23, 2006)

I completely agree with you kenpotex.  Once a person commits unwarranted acts of violence against another person, he forfeits his rights as a human as far as I'm concerned.  Under the law, yes, criminals have rights.  But when you are attacked, the judicial system is not there.  When someone tries to physically harm you, you know, without a doubt, that person is guilty.  If his blood is pooling on the ground, you have not only protected yourself.  You've protected his future victims as well.  I work with convicted criminals, many of them have violent crimes on their records.  They do not deserve compassion from civilized people.

Jeff

(edit for spelling)


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## Henderson (Apr 23, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> If his blood is pooling on the ground, you have not only protected yourself. *You've protected his future victims as well*.


 
This is exactly the idea behind Yagyu Munenori's Life-Giving Sword.  Funny how an old, traditional Iaido philosophy has found it's way into a modern, hypothetical scenario. :supcool:


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## still learning (Apr 23, 2006)

Hello, Off course this is just a "Hypotheltical situation".  No two incidents will be the same...when the time comes...it might be a good ideal to run and escape...intincts and awareness...will be your judge here..

I am more incline to help...just me..thank-you for your thoughts here...everyone will be judge later...including me...Aloha


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## KenpoTex (Apr 23, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> If his blood is pooling on the ground, you have not only protected yourself. *You've protected his future victims as well.* I work with convicted criminals, many of them have violent crimes on their records. They do not deserve compassion from civilized people.


Excellent point.


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## knifeboy (Apr 24, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> so you would rather run away?


 
It's not that simple.  I'm leaving 1) for my own protection and 2) because i don't want to deal with the cops... not running just leaving after an attack that i didn't ask for and no longer want to deal with...


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 24, 2006)

knifeboy said:
			
		

> It's not that simple. I'm leaving 1) for my own protection and 2) because i don't want to deal with the cops... not running just leaving after an attack that i didn't ask for and no longer want to deal with...


 
OK, this is a simple hypothetical situation..........everyone starts blowing it up.

I dont care about thwarting an attack from the person's friends.

Plain and simple, You just finished beating the hell out of someone, who knows why?  they pushed you or started to act in a threatening manner.
You maybe went a little too far......now they are laying there unconscious. No friends present, but a few witnesses.
You turn tail and run?


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## MJS (Apr 24, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> I have to agree with this statement. if the attacker was threatening my life and or safety I do not know if I would help him when he was down. i certianly would no if i knew he would live.
> Calling 911 is an option so is just getting the hell out of there if there where no witnesses


 
This is a good point.  It looks like we're at an interesting point here.  So far, it seems like we have don't call and leave, call and stay, and call and leave.  We all know that in todays world, it seems as if the bad guy, the one who tried to rob you, kill you, hurt someone with you, can turn around and sue because YOU injured them!  Well, IMO, I didn't tell this guy to try to mug me, he did it on his own!  

If there are witnesses, to them, it could look like we were the agressor, when in fact, it was the opposite.  

I'd probably be more inclined to report it, regardless of if I stay or leave the area.  Nothing says I can't drive to the PD to report it.  Then again, I also think that it'd be wise to watch how much force is being used.  Overkill could very well get us in more trouble that we originally had.

Mike


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## beau_safken (Apr 24, 2006)

I am just amazed.  I read lots of people's opinions and I love some and can't understand others.  

If a person comes at you with intent to harm/kill you...What is in it for you to show some kind of love and compassion after disarming/breaking/knocking out that person?  I am gonna have to quote a little godfather here.

"...In this world there are those that wish to be killed.  You read about them everyday in the paper.  These are people that will ask for death by going after those they have no idea of their capabilies.  It's like they yell "Someone please kill me."  They for little regard of their situation or no backup will do things in an attempt to be killed.  And there are always those that will ablidge that request.  Luca Brossi was such a man...  "

If people ask for it, they will get it.  I just can't imagine being in a position where I am forced to actually use my skills to injure another person.  But I am prepared to use them all.  It's just like needing to use a gun while pulling the trigger with the safety on.

You have all the rights and need to end that person's attempt to injure you or your loved ones as fast as possible.  IF that person who came at you gets injured to the point of needing a trip to the hospital, its a lesson he will never forget.  It was his/her choice to come after you, not yours.  So where is the burden of needing to assist someone that wanted to kill you just a moment ago if they are injured/knocked out/dying in the street?  Granted if the guy is actually dying I would want to help, how is that person gonna reflect on their actions if they are dead?


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## MJS (Apr 24, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> I am just amazed. I read lots of people's opinions and I love some and can't understand others.
> 
> If a person comes at you with intent to harm/kill you...What is in it for you to show some kind of love and compassion after disarming/breaking/knocking out that person? I am gonna have to quote a little godfather here.
> 
> ...


 
Speaking for myself here...I guess i'm just looking at it from a legal aspect.  If I was assaulted, I'm certainly going to want the police involved.  I never said that I would provide hands-on care myself.  The last thing I want, is someone witnessing this, seeing me leave, having no idea as to what really happened, assume I was the attacker, and next thing I know, I'm being hauled off to jail.  

It would be nice if a LEO or Lawyer chimed in here, so we could get some feedback from a legal aspect.

Mike


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## beau_safken (Apr 24, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> It would be nice if a LEO or Lawyer chimed in here, so we could get some feedback from a legal aspect.


 
Good call on that one, I'm a little curious to the amount of care that must be taken as well.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 24, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> I am just amazed.  I read lots of people's opinions and I love some and can't understand others.
> 
> If a person comes at you with intent to harm/kill you...What is in it for you to show some kind of love and compassion after disarming/breaking/knocking out that person? I am gonna have to quote a little godfather here.
> 
> ...



As others have stated and also myself, I did it for self defense and because while he was trying to hurt me, I would do anything to stop him. When it is over, then other decisions must be made.

Situation: I was about to be punt kicked in the face and so I stepped in to break the the hold but was off balance and came up under his legs. When I stood up I could not support him and was still off balance so I fell, and he hit his head into the ashphalt. While some were screaming because his neck was at a wierd angle, and others were saying I did not have to pile drive him into the ground, I realized he was not breathing. I pinch his nose to see if it would reflex open his mouth. He did not. I then opened his mouth and saw his tongue in the back of it. I took a pen out of my pocket and moved his tongue so he could breath.  I did not move the angle of his neck. 

I had yelled for others to get an ambulance. His friends came running up saying you do nothave to stab him in the mouth now? I told them not to move him and yet they picked him up and his head just rolled. I had vomit in my throat already for thinking I had killed the guy just minutes before and seeing that did not help. I just walked away and waited for the police and ambulance. 

The RMT told me I saved his life. The police also were willing to listen to my side of the story and also the witnesses instead of just cuffing me and taking me to jail. 

Weeks later after he was out of the hospital and he was walking just fine (* no permanent neck problems *) he came up to my place of work again and apologized to me and thanked me for saving his life. For the EMT's made sure he knew that the guy he started a fight with had ended the fight and him with it. But I took action and he was able to learn from his mistakes. 

Each situation is different. I grant that. I am not condemning anyone for their thoughts or how they think they will react, I am jsut explaining how I reacted and why.


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## beau_safken (Apr 24, 2006)

Ahh that helps to see that one in a different light for sure.  Damn well if the guy wasn't breathing and no longer a threat...I would sure do something to get him breathing again.  I saw the part about the pen and his tongue, but not the stop breathing part.  I really can see doing something if it went that far for sure.


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## Rick Wade (Apr 24, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> I would probably be more inclined to call the police and ems to provide the care.
> 
> Mike


 
I am with you on this one.

V/R

Rick


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 24, 2006)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> MJS said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree that calling the police and EMT's are the best way to go.


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## Suntail (Apr 25, 2006)

I'd like to think that I'd stick around and help until the police and EMTs arive.  Given, I'd stay as much out of contact with blood as I could while keeping them alive.  I'd also insure they weren't going to get back at me while I was helping them, after they stabilized.  I think it would prove that you weren't out to hurt someone if you helped them, so it doesn't become a he said, she said thing later (if there were no witnesses).
Along the lines of tactics, I assume that every encounter is a multiple opponent situation until proven otherwise.  I figure that some muggers, rapists, whatever, would have lookouts.  A person looking for a fight could have friends that they're trying to prove something to.  If they're lying incapacitated on the ground then, if I find myself in a tight spot with their friends,  I do have a potential hostage.  

Just my two cents.


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## CuongNhuka (Apr 27, 2006)

if they were hurt, 911 for cops and medicare. if it was takeing too long, and i thought the person might die if i didn't do something, i might. i geuss it all depends.


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## Hand Sword (May 2, 2006)

All relax. If it were for real and you were suddenly attacked, you would defend yourself, and get away. You wouldn't look back, probably. You'd be a mental mess, not thinking clearly, as you go into a subconscious mind set. When you come back on line, it will be away from the scene and after the fact, as the adrenaline levels begin to decrease. There's no thinking, just acting, for real.


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## KenpoTex (Nov 23, 2007)

bumping this one since this topic came up again in a recent thread.


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## Jai (Nov 23, 2007)

The farthest I would go would be to call 911. I wuld not give first aid to someone who forced me to do something to them that would require professional medical help.


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## Guardian (Nov 24, 2007)

SFC JeffJ said:


> If you injured someone who attacked you and seriously injured him/her, would you feel it necessary to provide first aide?
> 
> For the sake of this discussion, lets assume you are morally and legally in the clear.
> 
> Jeff


 
Yes, I would and there are two reasons for this that I have learned.

First, it shows that I am in control of myself and actions and to witnesses and possibley a jury of my peers in the short future, I am sympathetic towards my attacker, that will go along way towards any future problems for even if I am legally justified in my actions, criminal and civil legallities are two separate things.

Second - It would just be the right thing to do in my view.

Now personally, would I feel bad, probably not depending on the circumstances for that's not me, but in todays society, it's better to be alittle savy then totally uncaring even if he/she deserved every bit of that butt whoopin.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Nov 27, 2007)

I would secure him first with the 550 cord I carry and then I will attemp to save his life IF this was a case where I was not positive he was out to kill or maim me, but If I thought those were his intent, I would pretend to help him, hopeing he dies the whole time.

Same kind of thread came up on Judoforum.com  but the example used was of a medic who shot a guy and then saved him.


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## NYcityborn (Dec 13, 2007)

In my opinion, I would walk away, let him really think of what he did while hes on the ground.


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## NYcityborn (Dec 13, 2007)

SFC JeffJ said:


> I completely agree with you kenpotex.  Once a person commits unwarranted acts of violence against another person, he forfeits his rights as a human as far as I'm concerned.  Under the law, yes, criminals have rights.  But when you are attacked, the judicial system is not there.  When someone tries to physically harm you, you know, without a doubt, that person is guilty.  If his blood is pooling on the ground, you have not only protected yourself.  You've protected his future victims as well.  I work with convicted criminals, many of them have violent crimes on their records.  They do not deserve compassion from civilized people.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> (edit for spelling)


I completely agree with you, but theres people I know who wouldn't.

The attacker should have thought about what he/she was going to do before doing it. Even though I'm 16, I alway hear how some of these kids in my school talk and it doesn't surprise me when they are about to do something foolish.


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## Em MacIntosh (Dec 14, 2007)

Kick'em in the ribs and roll them into the street.  Just kidding.  I agree that they may not deserve my help but any chance I get to be the bigger person I'll take.  I look at it as doing them a big favor so they can think about what they've done in the hospital.  Now, if he gets out of the hospital, steals an old lady's purse while riding in a car and she doesn't let go and gets dragged, I don't feel responsible but I'd kick myself for helping that person.  Even so, I hate to see creatures suffer needlessly (filth or not) and I think it's a part of being a sentient creature not to "need" revenge.  I will always call the emergency personel (police, ambulance) if I incapacitate somebody.  If someone was limping away I'd follow them and call the cops.  Fighting is such an unfortunate thing, before, during and after.


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