# Video of my 7 year old rolling at a TKD tourney



## Pyrock (Dec 8, 2008)

Here is a link to a Youtube video of my 7 year old son's Sports Jiu Jitsu match during his TKD tournament.  They teach sports jiu jitsu as part of the TKD program.  He has also been with a Gracie BJJ gym for about 5 months.  I just thought I'd share...

He had 4 Tae Kwon Do sparring matches before this Jiu Jitsu match so he was a bit tired and seemed to be rushing things a bit.  He's only 7 so I cut him some slack ;-)

Oh, he's the smaller one in the white gi and white belt.  The other kid was 8-9 years old, noticeably larger, and just received his black belt in TKD.


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2008)

Your lad was game but why is he against an opponent bigger than him as well as a higher grade? That doesn't happen in the adults comps let alone childrens. I don't want to throw cold water on what he obviously enjoys but there were only two BJJ techniques there, the rest just rolling around on the floor trying for a choke. The shoot was a good attempt but he should be shown how to do it properly 
You can't grapple properly with sparring mitts on nor can you grapple with headguards on. head shots, kicks and punches makes it MMA as I said before and 7 is way to young to compete in MMA. Here they don't until they are 14 and then it's no head shots.

I understand you are very proud of him and I really don't want to throw cold water on that but I think you should have a look at U Tube at some BJJ and see what it really is. It's not what the lads were doing I'm afraid.


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## terryl965 (Dec 9, 2008)

Looks like he did a great job.


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Looks like he did a great job.


 
He did! no doubts but it's worrying all the same.


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## Pyrock (Dec 10, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Your lad was game but why is he against an opponent bigger than him as well as a higher grade? That doesn't happen in the adults comps let alone childrens. I don't want to throw cold water on what he obviously enjoys but there were only two BJJ techniques there, the rest just rolling around on the floor trying for a choke. The shoot was a good attempt but he should be shown how to do it properly
> You can't grapple properly with sparring mitts on nor can you grapple with headguards on. head shots, kicks and punches makes it MMA as I said before and 7 is way to young to compete in MMA. Here they don't until they are 14 and then it's no head shots.
> 
> I understand you are very proud of him and I really don't want to throw cold water on that but I think you should have a look at U Tube at some BJJ and see what it really is. It's not what the lads were doing I'm afraid.


 
I guess I better clear some things up here...

The tournament was not a BJJ tourny, it was a Tae Kwon Do tournament that included some Japanese Jiu Jitsu as part of the program.  In addition to his Tae Kwon Do school, my son also attends a Gracie BJJ school for about 5 months now.  He also does Folk Wrestling once a week at the community center.  Yes, headgear is not the best thing when grappling but it's the rules so my son has to comply.

I DO understand what Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is.  I dont study it but I am present at every class at the Gracie Acadamy where my son takes lessons and I follow it closely so I can help him when I can.

As for his shooting, BJJ technique, and what you call "just rolling around"...I'm sorry but he's only 7 years old.  He's been taught the propper take-down techniques from both his BJJ instructors and his wrestling coach but again, he IS 7 years old and has only been into the arts for 5-6 months.  Give him some time and I'm sure his take-downs will improve.  How were your take-downs at 7?  In fact, he just turned 7 last month!  I can tell you one thing though...He will definitely beat the 14 year old kid who just started BJJ or wrestling by the time he turns 12!(at which point he will have been studying BJJ for 5+ years.

Also, he was against a slightly larger and older kid because there were no other 7 year old kids at 50lbs in the exhibition event that they called "Sports Jiu Jitsu".


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## Pyrock (Dec 10, 2008)

_"I don't want to throw cold water on what he obviously enjoys but there were only two BJJ techniques there, the rest just rolling around on the floor trying for a choke. The shoot was a good attempt but he should be shown how to do it properly"_

Sorry but I have to make another comment about this statement....

When was the last time you saw a 7(and 8) year old execute proper BJJ techniques during a 2 minute match let alone with that stupid headgear?  Let's just take it for what it is....two kids trying their best and doing what they enjoy?  Did you notice the sportsmanship at the end of the match?...because THAT'S what it's all about...doing your best, sportsmanship, and respect for others.


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## Pyrock (Dec 10, 2008)

Maybe this vid will demonstrate better BJJ technique...and yes, they are still wearing the silly headgear.  Btw, some of the older kids opted not to wear headgear but I didn't want to take that chance if striking was involved.  My son is in the all blue gi this time.


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 10, 2008)

Pyrock said:


> _"I don't want to throw cold water on what he obviously enjoys but there were only two BJJ techniques there, the rest just rolling around on the floor trying for a choke. The shoot was a good attempt but he should be shown how to do it properly"_
> 
> Sorry but I have to make another comment about this statement....
> 
> When was the last time you saw a 7(and 8) year old execute proper BJJ techniques during a 2 minute match let alone with that stupid headgear? Let's just take it for what it is....two kids trying their best and doing what they enjoy? Did you notice the sportsmanship at the end of the match?...because THAT'S what it's all about...doing your best, sportsmanship, and respect for others.


 I can see where the poster was coming from because there really wasnt alot of technique.  However you are absolutley right its about the kids having fun.  If they are having fun then thats all that matters.  
One other thing is that there are quite a few 7-8 yr old kids out there with phenomenal skill.  Dont discredit them because of their age.


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## kosho (Dec 10, 2008)

Great job to your son. 

Kosho


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## Pyrock (Dec 10, 2008)

kosho said:


> Great job to your son.
> 
> Kosho


 

Thanks....he's still in the early stages of learning but I can't help but be proud of the little guy.  I dont know if I could have done so well at the old age of 7.  I know there's a lot of good 7 year olds out there but I'm sure there are some pushy parents as well because I see them every day at his classes.  I am not one of them.  All his training in the multiple martial arts are all his idea.  He goes to classes because he wants to.  I simply provide the ride and the $$.  One day, he attended 3 consecutive classes all by his own choice.  (BJJ, TKD, then Wrestling in one evening)  I have never forced him to go to class or practice...well maybe once when he was wasting his time with XBox.


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2008)

Ok first of all I wasn't getting at your son in the least, he was doing well. I have problems with grappling in headguard and gloves plus headshots at that age in *any competition*.  
Takedowns at seven, no we don't teach them at that age. We don't do headshots at that age either. Nor do we do teach chokes at that age. I do however have several 7 and 8 year olds with good solid BJJ techniques.
The boys were having fun yes but it's still not fair to match up a 7 year old white belt with a 9 year old black belt surely? 
I'm all for kids enjoying themselves and I'm definately all for kids learning good sportsmanship but *safely*. I don't think at that age they should be striking *and* rolling. Seven year olds are babes bless them they shouldn't be doing what is basically MMA with head strikes headguards or not. 
I know you are proud of him, who wouldn't be but it makes me fearful when I watch the videos, this time it was fun and laughs, I worry about what might happen thoug. i wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't been worried.


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## Pyrock (Dec 10, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Ok first of all I wasn't getting at your son in the least, he was doing well. I have problems with grappling in headguard and gloves plus headshots at that age in *any competition*.
> Takedowns at seven, no we don't teach them at that age. We don't do headshots at that age either. Nor do we do teach chokes at that age. I do however have several 7 and 8 year olds with good solid BJJ techniques.
> The boys were having fun yes but it's still not fair to match up a 7 year old white belt with a 9 year old black belt surely?
> I'm all for kids enjoying themselves and I'm definately all for kids learning good sportsmanship but *safely*. I don't think at that age they should be striking *and* rolling. Seven year olds are babes bless them they shouldn't be doing what is basically MMA with head strikes headguards or not.
> I know you are proud of him, who wouldn't be but it makes me fearful when I watch the videos, this time it was fun and laughs, I worry about what might happen thoug. i wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't been worried.


 
I understand your input and it is much appreciated.  As far as headshots, I dont think it's any different than teaching head kicks in Tae Kwon Do...at least ITA TKD.  My son is always encouraged to take head shots, but controlled shots.  They simply combined TKD sparring with Jiu Jitsu in the video. 

In my opinion, teaching a child a martial art like Kick boxing or TKD sparring without headshots is like teaching soccer without slide tackles or football without tackles.  Headshots are just part of the sport.  This is why they teach control and use headgear, cups, and mouth pieces.  I learned kick boxing when I was 10 years old and got hit in the head (with headgear) and I'm glad because it let me experience getting...well...hit in the head.  I've seen more kids get hurt from soccer, football, or ice hockey.  Martial Arts, in general, has way more precautions than those other sports.  In BJJ or Tae Kwon Do, I've never seen anyone running full out at my son trying to knock him on his a$$ like they do in peewee football or skating at 20+ mph at my kid to check him against the boards like peewee ice hockey.  Its all part of the sport.  If you dont want to expose a kid to risks, leave him at home to rot in front of the TV playing video games or watching TV or learn powder puff BJJ <----just kidding on that last one!  ;-) .  Just my opinion though...nothing personal.


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2008)

I was thinking I'd probably better explain why the shoot worried me as well hadn't I? Ok as most will know when you go for the shoot the head should be to the side of your opponent, head up and close as possible against the thigh. If it's not the opponent will grab the neck in a guillotine, all it needs them is a small amount of pressure applied usually by lifting the arms and it's lights out or at least with children a very nasty scare because the arm is hard against the windpipe. Compounded by having the headguard on to get the hands and arms tangled in it has the potential to be a very nasty moment.

Okay you may think I'm imagining a lot of things that could go wrong, and didn't thank god but I referee adult MMA, it's my job to try to be one step ahead and stop potential disasters happening. Of course theres a lot of 'what if's but when teaching young children an instructor needs to do a lot of risk assessments before deciding what is suitable for children to do and while still keeping the sense of adventure and daring there for them prevent actual disasters happening.

I found this video of kids doing BJJ and this is exactly how our kids do it.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu7EcXnONLQ&feature=related


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2008)

In all the karate and TSD classes I've been in over the years none of these have done headshots with *7 year old white belts* I'm afraid.  
I'm not saying that children shouldn't do headshots as such, my club after all is a fighting club not a sport club but not against very young children. There is a time and place for everyhting.


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## Pyrock (Dec 10, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I was thinking I'd probably better explain why the shoot worried me as well hadn't I? Ok as most will know when you go for the shoot the head should be to the side of your opponent, head up and close as possible against the thigh. If it's not the opponent will grab the neck in a guillotine, all it needs them is a small amount of pressure applied usually by lifting the arms and it's lights out or at least with children a very nasty scare because the arm is hard against the windpipe. Compounded by having the headguard on to get the hands and arms tangled in it has the potential to be a very nasty moment.
> 
> Okay you may think I'm imagining a lot of things that could go wrong, and didn't thank god but I referee adult MMA, it's my job to try to be one step ahead and stop potential disasters happening. Of course theres a lot of 'what if's but when teaching young children an instructor needs to do a lot of risk assessments before deciding what is suitable for children to do and while still keeping the sense of adventure and daring there for them prevent actual disasters happening.
> 
> ...


 

I agree with your analysis of the shoot.  In fact, I told him the same thing after the match AND this is why I'm not a fan of the headgear.  In fact, I'm on the fence whether or not it's safer to NOT use headgear when grappling.


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2008)

On the point of head shots and why children shouldn't be doing them head guards or not. Brain damage is caused when the head is hit and the brain inside moves and hits the skull causing bleeding and bruising. The head guards only dampen the energy of the strike it doesn't stop the brain moving inside, to be truly effective the guard would have to be wrapped around the brain not the outside of the head. Children of a young age should not be subjected to head strikes, their skulls aren't fullly formed anyway and the brain cannot take repeated moving inside the skull, think of shaken baby syndrome.
It's one of the reasons boxing has so many brain injuries and deaths, the boxers receive numerous strikes to the head during training and in matches, in training they will wear headguards too but the damage is still being done.
Strikes to young childrens heads isn't toughening them up, it's storing up trouble I'm afraid.


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## Lynne (Dec 11, 2008)

Great job!  He's a tenacious little fellow and appears to have lots of talent.  He did awesome against someone who outweighed him, too.


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## Pyrock (Dec 11, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> On the point of head shots and why children shouldn't be doing them head guards or not. Brain damage is caused when the head is hit and the brain inside moves and hits the skull causing bleeding and bruising. The head guards only dampen the energy of the strike it doesn't stop the brain moving inside, to be truly effective the guard would have to be wrapped around the brain not the outside of the head. Children of a young age should not be subjected to head strikes, their skulls aren't fullly formed anyway and the brain cannot take repeated moving inside the skull, think of shaken baby syndrome.
> It's one of the reasons boxing has so many brain injuries and deaths, the boxers receive numerous strikes to the head during training and in matches, in training they will wear headguards too but the damage is still being done.
> Strikes to young childrens heads isn't toughening them up, it's storing up trouble I'm afraid.


 
I understand and appreciate everything you are saying, even the technical medical stuff ... as I am a scientist by training and profession.  He has been in TKD sparring for over a year now and has yet to even get struck in the head in over 8 tournaments in which head kicks are allowed.  He has, on one occasion, attended a WTF tourney in which head shots were not allowed but all other non-Olympic style TKD events allowed head kicks.  Based on the rules and my experience, I am inclined to think head shots for 7-9 year olds poses no major risks.  In fact, few kids even kick to the head at that age.  Btw, hand strikes to the head during point sparring is allowed only with a backhand.  Technically, it's considered "light contact".  I would even go out on a limb and assume that head kicks and strikes are more dangerous for kids between the ages of 12-16 where they are better skilled to make head kicks and pack more energy because they are more developed (stronger)


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## Pyrock (Dec 11, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Great job! He's a tenacious little fellow and appears to have lots of talent. He did awesome against someone who outweighed him, too.


 

Thanks!  In fact, I think it is because of his tenacity (and natural abilities) that he is put up against bigger kids all the time.  He seems to blow through kids his own size in all his sports (BJJ, TKD, and Wrestling)  The cool thing is that he understands the idea that sparring and rolling with better and bigger kids makes HIM better.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 11, 2008)

What I saw of the video was good learning on both the kids. Also liked the sportsmanship of the 7 yr. old after it was said and done as he made a gesture to pat his opponent on the arm as to say "good job" or "it was fun" or "good match" or whatever but it was a positive gesture after rolling around on the floor trying to get the best of their opponent. 

They're kids, still lower belts and still learning. I for one applaud the use of head gear and gloves because accidents happen and kids DO need protection when learning a Martial Art, especially in an "uncontrolled" (by that I mean out of a class room setting -- ok it's still a learning situation) setting as a tourney. 

Techniques will get more refined over time to be sure, particularly at that age. Care should be given to be sure that it's done properly, particularly at that age. 

Thank you Pyrock and Tez for coming back and clarifying your previous statements. 

Thanks to everyone for keeping it civil. :asian:


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## Pyrock (Dec 11, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Thank you Pyrock and Tez for coming back and clarifying your previous statements.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for keeping it civil. :asian:


 
You're welcome and thanks for the comments.  Tez has some good points and great insight to the martial arts which is why I posted here.  I will certainly keep them in mind.


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## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2008)

Cheers for that!!
Absolutely headguards should be worn for kids standup sparring, we've had leather ones made for the kids with pieces that cover cheekbones and offer very good padding and importantly to our minds they have drawstrings around the top and velcro at the back to ensure a good fit whatever the size of the head. We don't do head shots with the children until they are a lot older but that doesn't mean to say heads don't get caught or even clash. We teach kicks to the head but don't often use them being more influenced by the MT low kicks. we also teach knee and elbow strikes but again these aren't used in sparring between the children.

As I said before we aren't a sports martial arts club, the adults fight full contact MMA and we have a fighter who will be auditioning for TUF next year so you can perhaps see where we come from and perhaps why it seems we are very protective of the children we teach. We don't do points sparring or semi contact but we teach the children realistic martial arts they can use to defend themselves with or if they chose to go on to become fighters. I'm not saying others don't but because we are fighters we tend to be more careful about what the children do, I don't know if that makes sense to you!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XX4GC2YbEa8

This is what worries me immensely, it was posted up somewhere else as it was kids fighting and one is KOd. ( yes I know its a good KO but it's still kids!) In MMA you have to be 16 at least before you can fight semi pro rules which is head shots only standing not on the floor. MMA.  Promoters here are being very careful any junior bouts we put on so that the perception isn't that we are letting children fight full contact, the matches are very carefuly referred so we get no injuries however here is a young person being knocked out which is something nobody should want to see.


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## Pyrock (Dec 11, 2008)

Oh, You're in the UK.  I saw a segment somewhere on cable TV about MMA in the UK for children.  I have to say that it was disturbing.  Just so you know, my sons MA training is NOTHING like that...it's more of a traditional martial arts thing including TKD forms and the like.  I can see why you are concerned with children and MMA.


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## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2008)

Pyrock said:


> Oh, You're in the UK. I saw a segment somewhere on cable TV about MMA in the UK for children. I have to say that it was disturbing. Just so you know, my sons MA training is NOTHING like that...it's more of a traditional martial arts thing including TKD forms and the like. I can see why you are concerned with children and MMA.


 

Very few children here train MMA,  I know the progamme you mean, it caused a big stir here, it really annoyed us MMAers as it was actually *Muay Thai fights in the cage* that it was about! it was horrendous. it was about 'baby cagefighters' but as I said it was bloody kickboxing! Talk about pushy parents! One father was going to take his young son to fight pro in Thailand, he was about 9 or so. Our fighters go out to thailand to train and they said young children there do fight but it's out of neccesity for them.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-OCC74vZ0Kc

Here no children fight MMA at all, they have to be 14 before they can fight amateur rules which is no head shots at all. No promoter ourselves included will take childrens fights.


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 11, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-OCC74vZ0Kc



I've seen parents badly behaved at little league, Karate tournaments,and the like. Naively, I thought I had seen the worst of bad parenting. This is the most grotesque thing I have witnessed in children's sports. Where to start...?


Parents swearing at a kid for getting hit?
Giving a child the choice not to wear protective head gear?
Spectators drinking at an event for children?
The only thing they left out was gambling. People are not paying that kind of gate to watch their kids get a little trophy.

At least kids in Thailand doing this are feeding their families.


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## Tez3 (Dec 12, 2008)

Gordon Nore said:


> I've seen parents badly behaved at little league, Karate tournaments,and the like. Naively, I thought I had seen the worst of bad parenting. This is the most grotesque thing I have witnessed in children's sports. Where to start...?
> 
> 
> Parents swearing at a kid for getting hit?
> ...


 
To be honest they probably did the gambing behinds the scenes! I and every other MMAer here found the whole thing disgusting, because the programme was called baby cagefighters we got the blame for it by people who couldn't tell the difference between martial arts. On the MMA forums there was uproar and not a few calls for the parents to get in the cage.

It shows too that the programme has gone beyond the UK and we are still being blamed as you can see from Pyrocks post he thinks we have to be careful with children in MMA because of it.

OK the truth, children in the UK do not compete in MMA. the youngest competitor has to be 14 and compete in amateur rules only, which is no head shots whatsoever. The referees take extra care and will stop a fight sooner than an adult fight if they think there is danger of an injury. Children here compete in BJJ, Judo and karate, TKD etc competitions. I don't know of any MMA club or team that teaches children MMA here. Most children do the disciplines separately then have it joined up when they are older, the youngest we have is a 15 year old and he came to us from boxing. My instructor's sons who are 18 and 16 did TKD first before he would teach them MMA. This is the way it is here. The children we teach in our classes do it separately and spar either standing or on the floor not both. Pyrock's videos has them doing both which is something no one does here, that is far more MMA than we do with children hence my concerns. We teach them TSD (with katas), judo and BJJ, we don't do it for competitions though, they don't want to. We mentioned it and no one was interested so the kids vote had it. We don't consider what we do as a sport. the MMA fighters we have as well as the adults who do MMA but don't compete are also serious about SD partly because of their jobs but partly because we attract serious people. We know all about the stuff that because you do MMA with rules you can't fight in the street, well to put a lie to that all our students adult or child can fight if necessary, thats what we teach frankly. . . fighting. You can call it self defence if it sounds better morally lol!
But the childrens safety when training is the paramount consideration, they are too precious for it to be otherwise.


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## lklawson (Dec 12, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> To be honest they probably did the gambing behinds the scenes! I and every other MMAer here found the whole thing disgusting, because the programme was called baby cagefighters we got the blame for it by people who couldn't tell the difference between martial arts. On the MMA forums there was uproar and not a few calls for the parents to get in the cage.
> 
> It shows too that the programme has gone beyond the UK and we are still being blamed as you can see from Pyrocks post he thinks we have to be careful with children in MMA because of it.


The subject is getting ink in major publications too.  IMS, BB Mag had an article just recently.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Dec 12, 2008)

lklawson said:


> The subject is getting ink in major publications too. IMS, BB Mag had an article just recently.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 

As long as they state it's Muay Thai these kids are doing it should be widely publised, I'd go so far as to say I'd like to see it stopped for children.It gives such a bad view of martial arts and quite honestly I don't know why they are doing it in a cage anyway, all the MT shows I go to are rings as I think it specifies in the rules (?). I can't imagine any advantages to being in the cage, thats usually for the grappling part of MMA, stops them rolling out onto the audiences ( not that thats a bad thing, I've had a couple of rather nice chaps land in my lap a couple of times when judging lol)
I really am disgusted by this MT for kids though, I get violent thoughts about the parents!


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## Pyrock (Dec 18, 2008)

I saw a video once of some pre-teens(12-13) doing MMA in a cage but it was a very controlled environment.  I think it was in a cage mainly because it was predominantly an adult gym.  I also saw a couple of 7-8 year olds in a Pankration trouny but the strikes were only to the body.  I have to admit though, they looked pretty violant for their age and very few JJ or BJJ moves. 

 In my sons vids, they are not allowed to strike after the clinch and I have rarely seen any striking at all...at least for the younger kids.  I would prefer my son to do straight BJJ.  He missed an opportunity last weekend because he had his "BIG" TKD tourny.  Hopefully, he will attend the next BJJ tourny and do strickly BJJ without any headgear or gloves. 

I really think that my sons TKD school is just trying to mix TKD sparring with JJ and created the event to see if it gains popularity among the students and it seems like it is because the first tourny (second video) there were only 6 participants.  In the second tourny (first video) there were at least 12-16 participants.  Personally, I hope they just stick to BJJ or tradional JJ and leave the striking to the other event.


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## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2008)

Pyrock said:


> I saw a video once of some pre-teens(12-13) doing MMA in a cage but it was a very controlled environment. I think it was in a cage mainly because it was predominantly an adult gym. I also saw a couple of 7-8 year olds in a Pankration trouny but the strikes were only to the body. I have to admit though, they looked pretty violant for their age and very few JJ or BJJ moves.
> 
> In my sons vids, they are not allowed to strike after the clinch and I have rarely seen any striking at all...at least for the younger kids. I would prefer my son to do straight BJJ. He missed an opportunity last weekend because he had his "BIG" TKD tourny. Hopefully, he will attend the next BJJ tourny and do strickly BJJ without any headgear or gloves.
> 
> I really think that my sons TKD school is just trying to mix TKD sparring with JJ and created the event to see if it gains popularity among the students and it seems like it is because the first tourny (second video) there were only 6 participants. In the second tourny (first video) there were at least 12-16 participants. Personally, _I hope they just stick to BJJ or tradional JJ and leave the striking to the other event_.


 

I agree with you there, plenty of time to put the two together later if they want. grappling in a cage is much better than in a ring as it's safer, no falling out under the ropes! though I've had some nice moments judging adults MMA when a guy has fallen out onto the table in front of me rofl!!


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