# Are Poison Strikes in other styles of Kempo/Kenpo?



## dragonswordkata (Feb 10, 2007)

In the style of Kempo I study we have a formalized set of hand strikes, besides the regular thrust, back two knuckle ...punches. I was curious if this was also taught in other Kempo/Kenpo styles. It would be great to see any differences, similarities if you would not mind sharing.

Here is a list of what I have.

1. Spear hand- throat
2. Inverted Spear hand- throat
3. Leopards paw- solar plexus
4. Leopards paw- throat
5. Inverted Leopards paw- filtrum (mustache) 
6. Tigers mouth- throat
7. Crab hand- throat
8. Two finger poke- eyes
9. Twin dragon- eyes
10. Inverted Twin dragon- throat
11. Immortal man- throat
12. Trigger finger-temple
13. Fatal finger- eyes
14. Crag bite- throat
15. Ax hand shudo- collar bone
16. Poison Thumb- eyes
17. Iron Thumbs- behind ears
18. Snake bite- eyes
19. Thumb strike- eyes
20. Dragons tail-eyes
21. Index (one finger poke)- eyes
22. Crains beak- temple
23. Tigers claw- eyes
24. Three finger strike- eyes
25. Inverted immortal man- eyes
26. Ripping tigers claw- groin
*27. **Hans uki- temples*
*28. **Crains beaks- groin*
*29. **Eagles beaks- corner of eyes*
*30. **Smothers punch- cheek*
31. Bear claw- ears
32. Willow palm- chest
33. Laceration- face rake
34. Chicken wrist- face (not sure of angel)
35. Finger flick- eyes (lose hand, palm up)
36. Rolling ridge hand-groin
37. Ridge hand- temple


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## Sigung86 (Feb 24, 2007)

It seems that no one else has said anything here, so I'll take a shot.  Most of the hand strikes you have listed either are, or were in Kenpo ... Depending on your style and its roots.  I teach most of them, but mostly without names, because it seems to me that the names tend to tag and confuse.  A number of these hand froms are in SGM Parker's SOCK book, but I don't believe there is much on the actual application.  Having said that, I haven't really dug into the book in a goodly amount of time.

Most of these hand strikes have numbers of other targets, as well.  The targets you list are, generally, considered to be the convenient or easy targets.  Some of them on your list are simply variations on one another, i.e. Two finger poke vs Twin Dragons.

Interestingly, when I lived in Great Britain, back in the 70s, I studied for a while with a Chinese fellow who taught a method that he called "Poison Hand".  The Poison Hand strikes were predefined sets of retreat/attack that used alot of these very hand forms, but with some different targeting. And, his secret weapon (The true "Poison Hand") was, actually, the leopards paw, or half fist.

I doubt that this post is of much help, but I just couldn't stand to see no one reply to your question.  At the risk of sounding presumptuous, if you have some specific discussion to proceed with, I'd love to get involved in what I consider to be a very neglected part of Kenpo (Not necessarily, EPAK) ...

 :caffeine:


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## LawDog (Feb 24, 2007)

My original version of Kenpo used most of these strikes. They are all great strikes but along with these strikes comes a very bad sentance, "hand strengthening" & "hand conditioning". 
Conditioning usually means starting from loose sand, to loose beans, iron palm bag, strike board etc. Strengthening usually means, push up on the finger tips, iron claw exercises, wrist exercises and so on. Many Kenpo schools dropped these Poison Strikes because they found it to time consuming to do the proper training that support these strikes.
I personally still take the time to do them. It is a pain in the neck time wise but it is worth it in the long run.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 24, 2007)

Sigung86 said:


> Most of the hand strikes you have listed either are, or were in Kenpo ... Depending on your style and its roots. I teach most of them


 
Yes, I learned most of these (although can't always tell if the name you--dragonswordkata--use is exactly the same strike, or perhaps so very close to another on the list that I learned them as one instead of two)



> _Most of these hand strikes have numbers of other targets, as well. The targets you list are, generally, considered to be the convenient or easy targets_.


 
This is my experience, too. If the strike is useful, I kept it. Amazing how many uses (targets) open up the longer I teach and learn.



> _Interestingly, when I lived in Great Britain, back in the 70s, I studied for a while with a Chinese fellow who taught a method that he called "Poison Hand". The Poison Hand strikes were predefined sets of retreat/attack that used alot of these very hand forms, but with some different targeting. And, his secret weapon (The true "Poison Hand") was, actually, the leopards paw, or half fist_.


 
I learned this both in Shaolin Kempo, and a variation of it later in Kung Fu San Soo. So, in my experience is more widepread than I originally thought.



> _I doubt that this post is of much help, but I just couldn't stand to see no one reply to your question. At the risk of sounding presumptuous, if you have some specific discussion to proceed with, I'd love to get involved in what I consider to be a very neglected part of Kenpo (Not necessarily, EPAK) ._..


 
I'd like that, too. _If_ we could keep it from becoming a flame by naysayers.
Everyone's entitled to their opinions, styles, preferences, but would rather keep this subject moving in a positive direction, instead of it devolving into defense against critics over whether these strikes would work, etc. (even using PM's if necessary). To me, this is a rich area that I could learn more about by interacting with others who share the interest. :asian:


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## dragonswordkata (Feb 24, 2007)

Sigung86 said:


> Hmmm, maybe I should have been clearer, sorry. I was kinda vauge in what I was looking for. I guess I wanted to see if other kempo/kenpo MA's had a formilized structure to posion strikes, if any of mine looked farmiliar in strike point, and what thier names might be.
> At our dojo I teach the poison strikes individualy, like in a combo, but also as a set pattern. You guys hit on the main reasons: focus drill, hand/memory conditioning and a light endurance drill (if done enough lol).
> 
> Do you do much hand conditioning like was mentioned with beans, striking boards, water?


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## kidswarrior (Feb 24, 2007)

dragonswordkata said:


> Do you do much hand conditioning like was mentioned with beans, striking boards, water?


 
I don't do any of this. As was mentioned in another thread, I use the kempo credo: Hard to soft, soft to hard. 

I have serious damage from my early years of doing the wrong things with my hands (fists). I don't think it would have mattered if I'd done it on boards, packed sand, or facial bones. Hard is hard.


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## Sigung86 (Feb 25, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> I don't do any of this. As was mentioned in another thread, I use the kempo credo: Hard to soft, soft to hard.
> 
> I have serious damage from my early years of doing the wrong things with my hands (fists). I don't think it would have mattered if I'd done it on boards, packed sand, or facial bones. Hard is hard.



Therein lies the rub.  Hand conditioning ... If done improperly, you will end up with more bad than good out of it.  My original Kenpo instructor (from the days of yesteryear) was heavily into hand conditioning.  However, I don't believe that the person who taught him was teaching it correctly, or he (my instructor) went off on his own tangent.  Now, when he first gets up of a morning, it takes up to an hour or so of intense manipulation, for him to get full motion into his hands and fingers.

I believe that most of the old "Masters" who lived to a ripe old age were, in fact, more the exception than the rule.  Honestly, when you take something as destructive as the martial arts, in it's fullest definition, and apply it to the human body, there must be incredibly destructive outcomes for the user as well as the poor fellow on the receiving end.  Thus we end up with things like shallower horse stances, less hand conditioning and thus fewer weapon choices (and that's not really always bad).  I know there are many more examples of "things" we used to do that we don't anymore.

I suspect that we are finally getting a good accounting of just how damaging the martial arts can be to a human body, on either side of the coin.  Many of the things that are practiced are done so because our system/style/school has always done them that way (whatever *them* may be)...  

Nowadays we live longer; we are, in a sense, generally healthier than in the way back.  We don't "dedicate" our lives to the martial path, and live and breath it 24/7.  I think it's enlightening to see all the various "old" Karate folk who have heart problems, hip replacements, knee and ankle issues, hand disorders, and so on.  Seems to me that there may be a very large database here to work on refining our arts, and so eliminate that which isn't truly that good for us.

Many years ago, I used to do hand conditioning to the point that we (my instructors, and I) could literally explosively shatter large cinder blocks with mild palm slaps.  The issues began to show themselves in my tiny mind, and I began to back off of it.  There is no where on this great green planet that I need to be able to explosively shatter cinder blocks.  There is no one wearing bamboo or other wooden armors that I need to break through to get at the person inside.  If I'm doing that, I probably would be better off with a model 1911 Colt or similar sidearm.

I love to play my guitar, and someday, would love to be able to play "Satin Doll" in the style of Joe Pass or Kenny Burrell.  Unfortunately, even the limited damage I did years ago to my hands keeps me from being able to quickly, accurately, and melodically, slide up and down the neck to get to the hard notes.  And so it goes.  The martial path, in my experience, limits what and how we can physically hope to cope with later life.  There is a high cost to be paid if someone wants to go through their whole life that way.

No ... I don't hand condition.  I really, no longer, see the need for it.  Almost every one of the Poison Hand forms can be performed as is or else altered or even changed completely to attack virtually any target on the human body.  I firmly believe that traditional hand conditioning not only hurts us with the external physical, but we haven't even begun to tap into what it may be hurting internally.  

I'm not sure as to how many epople on this forum buy into the concept of chi, and it's flow through the body.  There are several out here who are much more fluent than I in the comings and goings of chi (Doc, Dr. Dave, and a number of others) ... However, repeated trauma, when not dealt with intelligently, if at all, to certain points on the human body, causes a deleterious effect on the flow of scientifically demonstrable energy (chi) and thus health.

It seems that, to me, hand conditioning is a cultural throw back.  In days of old when knights were bold ... And often enough the only law that was available was the local kung fu/karate hero, said hero needed all the weapons he or she could have available.  Nowadays, we probably dont' need so many weapons.  Somewhat akin to the local sheriff  out here in rural mid-west America patrolling the town in an Abrams tank.  Probably very effective, but not very useful in all situations.

Just thoughts.


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## Jdokan (Feb 25, 2007)

HI Folks!
Though I don't know all the names listed and some may be redundant it pretty much covered what we did in my school...At one time there was a specific training requirement using the sand bucket....after several injuries to students it all went away....(the hand conditioning I mean)
Personally I still do some training for strenthening the hands specifically, I am much more cautious then when I was younger....I play guitar and finger injuries take longer to heal...heck all my injuries take longer to heal...
My favorites tend to be: single trigger, spear poke, dragon claw and tiger claw...(these are my favored "hand" strikes) For wing strikes: ridge, willow leaf, and the edge of the wing (not sure if anybody has a name for that) that strikes with the shuto as part of it, I like striking the neck (i.e. # 19 or 31)..


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## kidswarrior (Feb 25, 2007)

Glad to see this topic continue.  Think there are others out there (or here already) with more to add.


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