# Manners or Kenpo?



## The Master (Jun 30, 2007)

Greetings and Solicitations, my students of the arts!

Over the years I have traveled some, and attended functions in many places. I have formulated an interesting conclusion that I will share shortly. Some background is in order however.

Most of the arts I have dabbled in over the years tend to be relaxed in structure. Most don't use belting structures, nor do they care about artificial score cards such as rank. Interactions with the practitioners of these arts tend to also follow a relaxed structure. You are on a first name basis with your teacher, some even have cute nicknames for each other. It is relaxed, and friendly, and everyone there can kill to greater or lesser degrees of sweat.

Contrast that with Kenpo.
You have masters, and senior masters, and professors and sensei this and sifu that and everyone sirs everyone to death. You sit by color belt rank, and you line up for food by time served, and no one starts to eat until the guy with the most stripes has burped, but first you must say grace. It looks so regimental, so "British". But, underneath all this forced respect, and artificial order, lies egomaniacs, despots, poor manners, and a serious lack of disrespect for anyone who doesn't kenpoo the way that youdoo.

Your art is probably the most documented, most published and most structured of any out there, yet you will wage holy war over who is in your upline. Guys will stand on high and proclaim how many decades they have in, as if that means something. Yet, they have all the temperament and maturity of a 17 year old school yard bully. They engage in childish games, and boorish behavior that in any cultured circle would find the offender expelled and his membership revoked. Yet, here they are sir and master and professor.

The people who formulated your art were geniuses. I am truly impressed by what I have read, and the recent lost writings of Ed Parker Sr. continue to show me a man who was ahead of his time and who passed too soon. But his students, and oh too many of those who you call senior and teacher and master and professor and a dozen other titles, you I am afraid fall far short of the mark.

I have read complaints from a few of this site's rejected souls elsewhere, then researched their posts. The common ground for them all, they are bullies who resent being told 'no'. Some of these bullies are still here, for now. I suspect soon they will join their kin in exile, and proclaim loudly on lesser read sites how "mistreated" they were. The reality of course is, they are common trash with a great number of stripes on their bag.

One can be a lady or gentleman and a martial artist both. The idea of personal enrichment is alive in the arts. It is alive in the art of kenpo as well, I can see it in the founders words. Why those who claim to have studied for decades have not managed to grow up however, is a mystery this Master cannot answer. Instead they lurk here, hiding cowardly behind a false mask of affabilty all the while seeking instead to forment discord and bring disruption upon us, playing the victim of others malice. In the common language, they are called trolls, though troll might be too kind for some, or too intelligent a term. They know who they are.

So, answer for yourselves. Will you be enriched by your art, strive to become more than you are, and be a gentleman? Or, will you stay or sink to the level of a common street thug, only with fancier dance steps to amuse your victims as you bully them for lunch money?

The choice my dear people is always yours.

For me, I remain, The Master.


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## Tez3 (Jun 30, 2007)

so British? Good Grief! That's the last analogy I'd have used, British martial arts are all much more laid back! 

For the rest of it I haven't the foggiest idea of what the post about so will leave it to others to answer!


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## Monadnock (Jun 30, 2007)

That was a decent post and make a bit of sense. I think you are only seeing the small fraction of the ba-zillion Kenpo school is existence represented here. I wouldn't lump all of the Kenpo community in with your conclusions.

But, after such a post on modesty and getting back to training, why on earth would you sign you post "For me, I remain, The Master." ???


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 30, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> so British? Good Grief! That's the last analogy I'd have used, British martial arts are all much more laid back!
> 
> For the rest of it I haven't the foggiest idea of what the post about so will leave it to others to answer!


I think it's in reference to the way Americans see 'classic' British society.

Too much Faulty Towers I'd hazard.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 30, 2007)

Monadnock said:


> That was a decent post and make a bit of sense. I think you are only seeing the small fraction of the ba-zillion Kenpo school is existence represented here. I wouldn't lump all of the Kenpo community in with your conclusions.
> 
> But, after such a post on modesty and getting back to training, why on earth would you sign you post "For me, I remain, The Master." ???


This was posted on KenpoTalk a few hours ago.
http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5510


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## arnisador (Jun 30, 2007)

Monadnock said:


> That was a decent post and make a bit of sense. I think you are only seeing the small fraction of the ba-zillion Kenpo school is existence represented here. I wouldn't lump all of the Kenpo community in with your conclusions.



I've seen disproportionately much of this type of thing from the Kenpo community. Something in the worship of Ed Parker brings out this kind of attitude.

But there are good and bad people in _all _arts.


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## LawDog (Jun 30, 2007)

A group of us from the North Eastern USA are working on this. We are attempting to resolve this problem in our area.
:cheers:


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## LawDog (Jun 30, 2007)

The first sign of bad manners is when someone does not properly introduce himself before beginning a conversation.


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## Kacey (Jun 30, 2007)

I don't think this problem/concern/issue/whatever you want to call it is limited to Kenpo.  The difference is, I think, earning respect so that people _want_ to address you respectfully, and _demanding_ respect, and deriding those who disagree.  In fact, I think I'm going to start a new thread about that....


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## Blindside (Jun 30, 2007)

It isn't a kenpo thing, its a family thing. 

The only people who spend hours on these boards are people with a passion for their arts.  And unsurprisingly, some minority of those have very strong opinions on particular subjects, and given kenpo's recent and fairly fractious history, no wonder the message boards occaisionally get their collective panties in a bunch.  Who fights meaner and dirtier more than brothers and sisters?, much less KENPO brothers and sisters.... 

Lamont


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## Hand Sword (Jun 30, 2007)

Very true! And I feel really bad to those outsiders that mess with our family. Family fights are nasty, just look at what's done in ours. But, the outsider that messes with a family member gets a whole lot worse!


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 30, 2007)

I like that "Lesser Sites" part.
Sean


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## Hand Sword (Jun 30, 2007)

I was wondering when this kind of argument would come up. Could it be that the guard is finally changing? Are the new and newer schools becoming the majority? I remember when I first started, rank had a signifigance to some extend. It determined what Gi color you could wear, who could or could not dummy up for someone else. Junior ranks never had senior ranks punch in for them. Slowly, I've watched the evolution to this. With the commercialization I noticed less formality. For instance, instructors were on a first name basis. With the more family atmospheres the more less formality existed. Everyone were friends, or kind of peer like. Even still, certain higher ups got their props and recognition in the dojo setting. It was never questioned, but enforced. I reason that it was due to a large enough number of old schoolers, or those influenced by them, around. Maybe now, with the super money making setting, and the quick promotions, the old guard, with the exception of a few, has been replaced. The old mindsets are gone, or not focussed on as much. The ways are much friendlier now, and the mindsets show it. If an oldschooler tries what was a very normal thing at one time, they are now looked at at egotistic. Now, I'll agree there are definitely some who are and are guilty of the accusations of this thread. But, as they shrink, their voices will get louder until they vanish from the scene completely. It's just another topic of the arts that could be debated as something valuable lost, or something archaic that was stupid. I don't know, but, it's definitely interesting. I keep seeing what was once thought to never be a discussion worthy of addressing, or so common sense that a dummy slap would be needed, keep appearing.

Very interesting indeed.


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## jdinca (Jun 30, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> I was wondering when this kind of argument would come up. Could it be that the guard is finally changing? Are the new and newer schools becoming the majority? I remember when I first started, rank had a signifigance to some extend. It determined what Gi color you could wear, who could or could not dummy up for someone else. Junior ranks never had senior ranks punch in for them. Slowly, I've watched the evolution to this. With the commercialization I noticed less formality. For instance, instructors were on a first name basis. With the more family atmospheres the more less formality existed. Everyone were friends, or kind of peer like. Even still, certain higher ups got their props and recognition in the dojo setting. It was never questioned, but enforced. I reason that it was due to a large enough number of old schoolers, or those influenced by them, around. Maybe now, with the super money making setting, and the quick promotions, the old guard, with the exception of a few, has been replaced. The old mindsets are gone, or not focussed on as much. The ways are much friendlier now, and the mindsets show it. If an oldschooler tries what was a very normal thing at one time, they are now looked at at egotistic. Now, I'll agree there are definitely some who are and are guilty of the accusations of this thread. But, as they shrink, their voices will get louder until they vanish from the scene completely. It's just another topic of the arts that could be debated as something valuable lost, or something archaic that was stupid. I don't know, but, it's definitely interesting. I keep seeing what was once thought to never be a discussion worthy of addressing, or so common sense that a dummy slap would be needed, keep appearing.
> 
> Very interesting indeed.


 
I don't have much experience with other schools but even though we're a pretty big school, we still maintain discipline and rank structure. It's part of the whole package.

What's really interesting is the way that type of operating procedure is scoffed at by so many "modern" martial artists. If done for a reason, I have no problem with tradition.


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## LawDog (Jun 30, 2007)

The majority of the old guard were / are not bad people or were their ways. Remember, many of the old guard lived during the times of great world wars and conflicts. I have noticed that with the passing of the old ways along with them did our manners.


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## The Master (Jun 30, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> so British? Good Grief! That's the last analogy I'd have used, British martial arts are all much more laid back!
> 
> For the rest of it I haven't the foggiest idea of what the post about so will leave it to others to answer!


 
Blame the American idea of the stereotypical Englishman with his stiff upper lip and desire to show good form. I'll lay the blame on too many episodes of Dr. Who and the Brigadier.

Rest is about those who give lip service to good manners, but only apply them to those who agree with them, and treat all others like dirt.



Monadnock said:


> That was a decent post and make a bit of sense. I think you are only seeing the small fraction of the ba-zillion Kenpo school is existence represented here. I wouldn't lump all of the Kenpo community in with your conclusions.
> 
> But, after such a post on modesty and getting back to training, why on earth would you sign you post "For me, I remain, The Master." ???


 
Because it would beg that question my good man.



Bob Hubbard said:


> I think it's in reference to the way Americans see 'classic' British society.
> 
> Too much Faulty Towers I'd hazard.


 
Pertwee and Baker era Who actually.



arnisador said:


> I've seen disproportionately much of this type of thing from the Kenpo community. Something in the worship of Ed Parker brings out this kind of attitude.
> 
> But there are good and bad people in all arts.


 
True. I don't see it as Parker Worship. More like "you aren't us, therefore you are not worthy of respect".



LawDog said:


> A group of us from the North Eastern USA are working on this. We are attempting to resolve this problem in our area.


 
Best of luck to you sir!



LawDog said:


> The first sign of bad manners is when someone does not properly introduce himself before beginning a conversation.


 
I thought I had, elsewhere.  I'll have to check and remedy that.



Kacey said:


> I don't think this problem/concern/issue/whatever you want to call it is limited to Kenpo. The difference is, I think, earning respect so that people want to address you respectfully, and demanding respect, and deriding those who disagree. In fact, I think I'm going to start a new thread about that....


 
Very true, and thank you for understanding.



Blindside said:


> It isn't a kenpo thing, its a family thing.
> 
> The only people who spend hours on these boards are people with a passion for their arts. And unsurprisingly, some minority of those have very strong opinions on particular subjects, and given kenpo's recent and fairly fractious history, no wonder the message boards occaisionally get their collective panties in a bunch. Who fights meaner and dirtier more than brothers and sisters?, much less KENPO brothers and sisters....
> 
> Lamont


 
Who fights fiercer than family? Who ever heard of a 'civil' war?



Hand Sword said:


> Very true! And I feel really bad to those outsiders that mess with our family. Family fights are nasty, just look at what's done in ours. But, the outsider that messes with a family member gets a whole lot worse!


 
My siblings and I will agree with you.



Touch Of Death said:


> I like that "Lesser Sites" part.
> Sean


 
That is what they are. Less content, less traffic, less people, less usefulness. But all the freedom to say **** and you suck they want.



Hand Sword said:


> I was wondering when this kind of argument would come up. Could it be that the guard is finally changing? Are the new and newer schools becoming the majority? I remember when I first started, rank had a signifigance to some extend. It determined what Gi color you could wear, who could or could not dummy up for someone else. Junior ranks never had senior ranks punch in for them. Slowly, I've watched the evolution to this. With the commercialization I noticed less formality. For instance, instructors were on a first name basis. With the more family atmospheres the more less formality existed. Everyone were friends, or kind of peer like. Even still, certain higher ups got their props and recognition in the dojo setting. It was never questioned, but enforced. I reason that it was due to a large enough number of old schoolers, or those influenced by them, around. Maybe now, with the super money making setting, and the quick promotions, the old guard, with the exception of a few, has been replaced. The old mindsets are gone, or not focussed on as much. The ways are much friendlier now, and the mindsets show it. If an oldschooler tries what was a very normal thing at one time, they are now looked at at egotistic. Now, I'll agree there are definitely some who are and are guilty of the accusations of this thread. But, as they shrink, their voices will get louder until they vanish from the scene completely. It's just another topic of the arts that could be debated as something valuable lost, or something archaic that was stupid. I don't know, but, it's definitely interesting. I keep seeing what was once thought to never be a discussion worthy of addressing, or so common sense that a dummy slap would be needed, keep appearing.
> 
> Very interesting indeed.


 
Part of my comment is target at the old school. Too often these internet bullies are 20, 30+ year veterans. I hope however that they are the minority, and that their influence continues to shrink.



jdinca said:


> I don't have much experience with other schools but even though we're a pretty big school, we still maintain discipline and rank structure. It's part of the whole package.
> 
> What's really interesting is the way that type of operating procedure is scoffed at by so many "modern" martial artists. If done for a reason, I have no problem with tradition.


 
There is nothing wrong with tradition. Please do not take that as my intent. I find that respect in the arts to be a refreshing thing, but sadly a sign of an older time. Today, it is too often about paying the rent, not instilling discipline in little Tommy. Even so, respect shouldn't be limited to just those in your circle.



LawDog said:


> The majority of the old guard were / are not bad people or were their ways. Remember, many of the old guard lived during the times of great world wars and conflicts. I have noticed that with the passing of the old ways along with them did our manners.


 
Old style manners are dying. No more do men tip their hats, or step aside for the ladies. More is the pity here. I tend towards the old fashioned myself, but children today have an attitude when you insist they say thank you, or please, or so not interrupt when you are speaking. This lack I find extends more and more to those I often share floors with, and in the comments on forums such as this by those often held in high esteem. They do not last long, and one of those I was thinking of when I wrote this has since met his own exile. It was a good event.


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## LawDog (Jun 30, 2007)

Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Al Cunningham and you are?


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## Matt (Jun 30, 2007)

The Master said:


> Greetings and Solicitations, my students of the arts!


Hi, I'm Matt. I've been away for a bit, at least as far as posting, but I've tried to keep tabs on the kenpo section even if I've been too busy to post since you've joined us here.  The internet is cool and all, but I think any point you have is being lost on a large portion of the readers who are either struggling with the silly affectations in your writing style, or the extraordinary amount of arrogance and condecension that drips from your posts. Please try to share your admittedly valid points in a less obtuse manner. 



The Master said:


> For me, I remain, The Master.



Well, the master, good luck here, and I'll stick to being Matt. Oh, and for a guy who seems up on manners, protocol, and an egalitarian rant on rank, that 'bow before me' tag sure makes me scratch my head (virtually).


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## thetruth (Jun 30, 2007)

The Master, you sound like you are beating around the bush as to who you are and what style you practice etc.   You do however sign off on a similar manner to ashida kim and use some similar words to him (I remain, trolls etc).

It isn't a secret that American Kenpo is splintered and that each Instructors students are loyal to him and whatever organisation they are affiliated with.  Who cares??????????   As long as each person is happy with what they are learning and their organisation then there is nothing wrong with what they are doing.   

There is arrogance present in all styles that have splintered however I wouldn't say American Kenpo isn't that much worse, it's just that it is more public in it's views as many instructors publish their views and 'style' in magazines and forums such as this.   In this forum, even when people are presenting thoughts tainted by their organisations views, they are nothing but respectful.  

So, The Master:

Who are you sir????

What style do you practice sir????

Apart from reading articles what is your experience with American Kenpo sir????

Cheers
Sam :asian: (note I've written my NAME here)


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## The Master (Jun 30, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Al Cunningham and you are?


 
John Racheim



Matt said:


> Hi, I'm Matt. I've been away for a bit, at least as far as posting, but I've tried to keep tabs on the kenpo section even if I've been too busy to post since you've joined us here. The internet is cool and all, but I think any point you have is being lost on a large portion of the readers who are either struggling with the silly affectations in your writing style, or the extraordinary amount of arrogance and condecension that drips from your posts. Please try to share your admittedly valid points in a less obtuse manner.


 
I write the way I write, and shant "dumb it down" as some would say. As to the arrogance, well, I am The Master.



> Well, the master, good luck here, and I'll stick to being Matt. Oh, and for a guy who seems up on manners, protocol, and an egalitarian rant on rank, that 'bow before me' tag sure makes me scratch my head (virtually).


 
John Racheim. 



thetruth said:


> The Master, you sound like you are beating around the bush as to who you are and what style you practice etc. You do however sign off on a similar manner to ashida kim and use some similar words to him (I remain, trolls etc).


 
No my friend, I am not him. For he is the ultimate ninja, why would he bother with kenpo?



> It isn't a secret that American Kenpo is splintered and that each Instructors students are loyal to him and whatever organisation they are affiliated with. Who cares?????????? As long as each person is happy with what they are learning and their organisation then there is nothing wrong with what they are doing.


 
True words, and not something I have spoken about.



> There is arrogance present in all styles that have splintered however I wouldn't say American Kenpo isn't that much worse, it's just that it is more public in it's views as many instructors publish their views and 'style' in magazines and forums such as this. In this forum, even when people are presenting thoughts tainted by their organisations views, they are nothing but respectful.


 
If but this was only true, then there would be no kenpoists among the exiled, now would there?



> So, The Master:
> 
> Who are you sir????


 
John Racheim



> What style do you practice sir????


 
Several



> Apart from reading articles what is your experience with American Kenpo sir????
> 
> Cheers
> Sam :asian: (note I've written my NAME here)


 
Several seminars, camps and other events over the past 20 years.

The attitude I refer to is obvious in the postings on numerous message boards, including the archives of this one.



Some seem to think that I attack kenpo. Nothing could be further from the truth. Those that do, should reread my original message.


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## jdinca (Jun 30, 2007)

The Master said:


> There is nothing wrong with tradition. Please do not take that as my intent. I find that respect in the arts to be a refreshing thing, but sadly a sign of an older time. Today, it is too often about paying the rent, not instilling discipline in little Tommy. Even so, respect shouldn't be limited to just those in your circle.


 
My comment actually had nothing to do with what you've written. Perusing a number of martial arts forums provides plenty of evidence.

Properly done, instilling discipline in little Tommy will pay the rent. It's a shame that there are those out there who just don't seem to understand that.

Respect must be given to those who deserve it, regardless of whether they are inside your circle, or out of it. Another basic civility that seems to be going by the wayside.


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## MJS (Jun 30, 2007)

The Master said:


> Contrast that with Kenpo.
> You have masters, and senior masters, and professors and sensei this and sifu that and everyone sirs everyone to death. You sit by color belt rank, and you line up for food by time served, and no one starts to eat until the guy with the most stripes has burped, but first you must say grace. It looks so regimental, so "British". But, underneath all this forced respect, and artificial order, lies egomaniacs, despots, poor manners, and a serious lack of disrespect for anyone who doesn't kenpoo the way that youdoo.


 
I agree.  You have people with high rank, a title to their name, and they do not act accordingly.  Take EPAK for example.  You have many Senior ranks who've trained with Mr. Parker.  Those people have their students and their interpretation of the art.  However, there are some that look down on those that didn't spend as much time as others, training with Parker, and those that look down upon people because, as you said, they do something different.  What makes them any more right or wrong than the next guy?  Perhaps people should spend more time on their own training and worry less what others do.



> Your art is probably the most documented, most published and most structured of any out there, yet you will wage holy war over who is in your upline. Guys will stand on high and proclaim how many decades they have in, as if that means something. Yet, they have all the temperament and maturity of a 17 year old school yard bully. They engage in childish games, and boorish behavior that in any cultured circle would find the offender expelled and his membership revoked. Yet, here they are sir and master and professor.


 
Hmm...can't disagree with this either.  Looking around at some of the various forums out there, I've seen alot of examples of what you said.




> I have read complaints from a few of this site's rejected souls elsewhere, then researched their posts. The common ground for them all, they are bullies who resent being told 'no'. Some of these bullies are still here, for now. I suspect soon they will join their kin in exile, and proclaim loudly on lesser read sites how "mistreated" they were. The reality of course is, they are common trash with a great number of stripes on their bag.


 
Perhaps they're too blind to see their own actions.



> One can be a lady or gentleman and a martial artist both. The idea of personal enrichment is alive in the arts. It is alive in the art of kenpo as well, I can see it in the founders words. Why those who claim to have studied for decades have not managed to grow up however, is a mystery this Master cannot answer. Instead they lurk here, hiding cowardly behind a false mask of affabilty all the while seeking instead to forment discord and bring disruption upon us, playing the victim of others malice. In the common language, they are called trolls, though troll might be too kind for some, or too intelligent a term. They know who they are.


 
Yup.



> So, answer for yourselves. Will you be enriched by your art, strive to become more than you are, and be a gentleman? Or, will you stay or sink to the level of a common street thug, only with fancier dance steps to amuse your victims as you bully them for lunch money?
> 
> The choice my dear people is always yours.
> 
> For me, I remain, The Master.


 
I do my best to be respectful to people, but I've always been of the thought that respect is a two way street.  In other words, you need to give it to get it.  Unlike some that I've seen, I don't demand respect, I earn it, because of my actions.


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## thetruth (Jul 1, 2007)

The Master said:


> No my friend, I am not him. For he is the ultimate ninja, why would he bother with kenpo?
> .



I hope you are joking but with the strange tone that seems to be associated with your posts it is hard to tell.  Also, I didn't ask you how many styles you did (you answered several), I asked you which styles you did.  So which styles do you do???

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Shotochem (Jul 2, 2007)

Hi All,

I just couldn't resist.........

Racheim
Eveyrwhere I turn theyre playing Racheim
Every wedding, every Dinner, Racheim
Even on the planes theyre playing Racheim, Racheim, Racheim

Racheim
Why is everybody singing Racheim
Why does everyone request that Racheim
I'm so sick of listening to Racheim, Racheim, Racheim

We can all remember Didoh Bei (thats a nice song)
Chazak, Moshiach, they played all day
But now theyre forgotten, gone away
Now it's Racheim, Racheim, Racheim!

I had a kumzitz in my shul
And a big chagigah in my school
But they just sang over and over again
Racheim, Racheim, Racheim

Part 2:

Racheim
I'm so sick of listening to Racheim
Every place I go theyre playing Racheim
I try to shut it out but all I hear is Racheim, Racheim, Racheim

Racheim
I go to shul , Kedusha sounds like RACHEIM!
I go to Europe, thyere all playing Racheim
My cell phone rings, it's ringing rrrracheim! rrrracheim! rrrracheim!

My litvishe friends they all sound the same
When they open their mouths to sing Racheim
But my chasidishe friends who come from Der Heim
Deyre singing Rachaim, Rachaim, Rachaim

I must admit even though it makes me ill
People everywhere love it still
And I know this may sound lame
But one day I think I'll miss Racheim

-Marc-


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## CoryKS (Jul 2, 2007)

Kenpo Jihad!  Kenpo Jihad on you!


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## The Master (Jul 2, 2007)

thetruth said:


> I hope you are joking but with the strange tone that seems to be associated with your posts it is hard to tell.  Also, I didn't ask you how many styles you did (you answered several), I asked you which styles you did.  So which styles do you do???
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


That is a sidebar to the discussion, but a short one.

I train in a personal hybrid of techniques that suit my own personal goals. I train where I can, seeking a greater knowledge of all of the arts. Some will say "non answer", but it is the truth.


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## The Master (Jul 2, 2007)

The Master said:


> That is a sidebar to the discussion, but a short one.
> 
> I train in a personal hybrid of techniques that suit my own personal goals. I train where I can, seeking a greater knowledge of all of the arts. Some will say "non answer", but it is the truth.


It is interesting comparing reaction and response to my writings. Here, it seems that the majority of individuals understand what my point is, and in fact have expanded upon it to include similar situations in other arts.  On another site, I am attacked, insulted, and infracted, and on another yet, ridiculed, often by these same 'kenpo bullies' I speak of. They merely prove my theory correct by their actions.
I think it says much of the maturity of those here, who can understand my sometimes verbose and cryptic pen.


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## The Master (Jul 2, 2007)

Song and jest. How amusing.  I am afraid I am unfamiliar with that tune. ??


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## thetruth (Jul 3, 2007)

Ok John (the master) let me reword my question.  What styles have you studied in the past that now make up this personal hybrid you speak of??   Also,what have you said in these other forums to warrant attack from these 'kenpo bullies' you speak of?  I have been kicked out of a 1 forum numerous times under numerous names for simply asking questions.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 3, 2007)

The copy of this post he posted at KenpoTalk got quite heated. No clue where else it might have been posted.
http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5510

Personally, I think his OP can apply to alot of arts. I've seen the same thing happen in JKD, FMA, KMA and more. *shrug*


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Jul 3, 2007)

Those who are quick to dismiss another's POV are usually quick to dismiss other Arts or even those who don't practice their art the way they do.  Often times they don't even have a problem dismissing another person.

Those on this thread and the one on Kenpotalk who have jumped up to dismiss 'the master' have themselves proven his point in the original post.

I enjoy MT & KT because it affords me the opportunity to see how other's view their own art.  For example, it could be easy to dismiss Tae Kwon Do as a legitimate art because all of us are bothered by the belt factories that are always within a mile or two of us at all times but if you peruse through the Tae Kwon Do forum on MT you will find TKD practitioners bothered by this and hear what the art is really about.  Those that have come here to dismiss others to me are only distractions to the goal.  I usually speed read or skip their posts.

_Don Flatt


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## Shotochem (Jul 3, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> The copy of this post he posted at KenpoTalk got quite heated. No clue where else it might have been posted.
> http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5510
> 
> Personally, I think his OP can apply to alot of arts. I've seen the same thing happen in JKD, FMA, KMA and more. *shrug*


 

I am in complete agreement.  In my former art Shotokan, it was much like what John had stated.  

We had an abundance of know it all closed minded individuals who were afraid of change.  They masked their politics and egos with the cloak of humility, perfection of character, and my favorite, it's a way of life$$$$$.  Some people took themselves way to seriously.

I found that unless you capitulated and drank the kool aid so to speak, you were considered a heretic and an outcast.  The BB was considered high above the glass ceiling unless you were a blind follower of the master. No questions, do it my way, our way is better.

They found it hard to believe I trained for enjoyment rather than enlightenment.  

They were insulted I did not place as high a value on rank as I did on personal knowledge and fufillment.

My old training partners still haven't even spoken to me since I have moved on. 

Blasphemy, heresey, so be it.  Burn me at the stake.......

Sorry about my little rant...... 

This post remined me why I left and and switched to Kempo.  It's been a year with my new org and I have seen none of what I posted above.


-Marc-


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## The Master (Jul 3, 2007)

thetruth said:


> Ok John (the master) let me reword my question. What styles have you studied in the past that now make up this personal hybrid you speak of?? Also,what have you said in these other forums to warrant attack from these 'kenpo bullies' you speak of? I have been kicked out of a 1 forum numerous times under numerous names for simply asking questions.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
Mr. Hubbard was kind enough to post the link to the main center of disagreement. Some of those involved have since been ejected for their poor manners it seems, and have gone elsewhere to continue the war, one sided as it is there as I refuse to follow to play.

I have experienced several of the kenpos and kempos, including Parker, Tracy and Shorinji Kempo. Some Pekiti-Tirsia, some Balintawak, some Arnis, and several other Fillipino arts I can not recall the name of. Several different kara-te's, 2 different flavors if you will of the ninja arts, hung gar, preyingmantis, wing chun, jkd, and a half dozen sword arts both eastern and western. I have done several styles of grappling, though again the names escape my recall at the moment. It is, what it is, and that is what works for me as I research and explore. 



Bob Hubbard said:


> The copy of this post he posted at KenpoTalk got quite heated. No clue where else it might have been posted.
> http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5510
> 
> Personally, I think his OP can apply to alot of arts. I've seen the same thing happen in JKD, FMA, KMA and more. *shrug*


 
Thank you for being one of those who as it were,  "get it".



Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Those who are quick to dismiss another's POV are usually quick to dismiss other Arts or even those who don't practice their art the way they do. Often times they don't even have a problem dismissing another person.
> 
> Those on this thread and the one on Kenpotalk who have jumped up to dismiss 'the master' have themselves proven his point in the original post.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for being one of those who as it were,  "get it".
Both sites are excellent sites, with the riff raff as it were, far between.



Shotochem said:


> I am in complete agreement. In my former art Shotokan, it was much like what John had stated.
> 
> We had an abundance of know it all closed minded individuals who were afraid of change. They masked their politics and egos with the cloak of humility, perfection of character, and my favorite, it's a way of life$$$$$. Some people took themselves way to seriously.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you. :asian:


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## Flying Crane (Jul 3, 2007)

The Master said:


> It is interesting comparing reaction and response to my writings. Here, it seems that the majority of individuals understand what my point is, and in fact have expanded upon it to include similar situations in other arts. On another site, I am attacked, insulted, and infracted, and on another yet, ridiculed, often by these same 'kenpo bullies' I speak of. They merely prove my theory correct by their actions.
> I think it says much of the maturity of those here, who can understand my sometimes verbose and cryptic pen.


 
I think much of what you are referring to here, has to do with the fact that Martialtalk has a wide variety of individuals who practice a wide variety of martial arts.  

I believe there is a potential trap that is accidentally laid down on sites like Kenpotalk, where the subject of discussions is primarily one single art and its various derivatives.  Under these conditions, it becomes easy to begin patting oneself on the back for practicing the "best" art in the world, and there are none to disagree or dispute the claim, and that is the trap that many seem to walk into.  

That seems to be a role I have taken on to some degree on Kenpotalk.  I see people post claims about kenpo and Mr. Parker, that really strike me as naive.  Some people seem to think that Mr. Parker and kenpo have some kind of monopoly on effective methods, strategies, and techniques, and no other arts have figured this stuff out.  I think that Mr. Parker perhaps went farthest in trying to document, describe, and label things, but that doesn't mean other arts don't understand the very same things, be it by a different name, or unnamed altogether.  So I tend to point this out, and sometimes people take offense, and I think that I am not the most popular member over there.  I think they believe I am attacking kenpo, or Mr. Parker, and that is not true.  Kenpo was my first art, and I am currently retraining in it.  But I have studied enough other arts to know the fallacy of some of the claims made by people over there, when comparing kenpo to other arts.  If some of those same comments were posted over here, where more people from other arts would comment, I am sure these silly notions would be shot down very quickly.

So I certainly understand the points you are making.  My experience with other arts have also exposed me to politics and in-fighting, some as intense as kenpo, others very little.  But I think there is a lot of truth in what you say in this and the other threads.  It seems to me that some members simply don't like it when you dispute something they might say.  I think they expect everyone to simply accept their word unquestioningly, and they resent it when others point out holes in their stories.  I have had that experience when I suggested something one senior kenpist said didn't make sense.  It wasn't even about a finer point of technique or something, rather it was more a general analogy that was made.  I thought it might lead to some deeper discussion on the topic.  Instead, I got a lot of sarcasm and derision in response.  Oh well...

So I just go about my business, trying to politely interject some checks and balances when things seem just a little too biased.  And I expect I will remain somewhat less popular than the others.  Such is my lot in life...


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## arnisador (Jul 3, 2007)

The Master said:


> I have experienced several of the kenpos and kempos, including Parker, Tracy and Shorinji Kempo. Some Pekiti-Tirsia, some Balintawak, some Arnis, and several other Fillipino arts I can not recall the name of. Several different kara-te's, 2 different flavors if you will of the ninja arts, hung gar, preyingmantis, wing chun, jkd, and a half dozen sword arts both eastern and western. I have done several styles of grappling, though again the names escape my recall at the moment. It is, what it is, and that is what works for me as I research and explore.



The research and exploration can't be very deep if you can't even remember the names of the styles, can it?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 3, 2007)

Well, lets be fair here Jeff.  Do you remember the specific lineage/description of every technique you've ever seen without referring to your notes? I sure can't.  Heck, one of my past instructors had that same problem, even told me 3 different names for what he was showing me. Personally, I'm more of the "show me how it goes, don't worry about the jargon" types.


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## arnisador (Jul 3, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Personally, I'm more of the "show me how it goes, don't worry about the jargon" types.



But wouldn't you know the _name _of the art you're _researching_ (his term, not mine)? This isn't about what technique(s) came from which art(s)--just what styles of grappling the person had "done" while _researching _and _exploring_. Yes, I could tell you the name of every style I have "done" over the past nearly 30 years--not every seminar, not every cross-training experience, but every style I studied, yes:

American Self-Defense (a Kenpo variant)
Isshin-ryu Karate
Judo
Aikido
Goju-ryu Karate (Okinawan Shobukan org.)
Iaido (ZNKR)
Modern Arnis
Arnis-Kali Sipa-Sikaran (since renamed to Arnis Sikaran)
Tae Kwon Do
Uechi-Ryi Karate-Do
Mo Duk Pai Kung Fu
Tai Chi (national style)
Jeet Kune Do (PFS)
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Doce Pares (Eskrido)
Wing Chun Kung Fu

and mixed in there is a smattering of less-formal and less-extensive study of Shorin-ryu Karate, Shotokan Karate, Jujutsu, Kombatan, and Balintawak.

Yes, I think it's reasonable to expect a person to know the name of the art, and to wonder how in-depth the research was if he doesn't.


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## The Master (Jul 4, 2007)

> The research and exploration can't be very deep if you can't even remember the names of the styles, can it?





> Yes, I think it's reasonable to expect a person to know the name of the art, and to wonder how in-depth the research was if he doesn't.



We digress here, my good Doctor. We turn from the idea of manners or rather the lack of them in kenpo to my training history. Perhaps next we can discuss those revolting jellybabies as we continue this journey off topic into the irrelevant?

If you can recall, with perfect clarity every technique that you have ever been shown, and with equal clarity of recall, its noted source, without referring to any written or otherwise recorded notation, then you sir, are in fact a better man than I, and should perhaps be elevated to the same level of esteem as the late Mr. Bruce Lee.

I would hazard a guess that you, just as I are not that great.

Many of the techniques I practise were learnt at seminars, or casual meet ups from my younger days. As is the whim of youth, I trusted in memory, grown unreliable with age, to recall the whowhatwherewhen that you seek.

As for my grappling background, it has included Somba, Jiu Jitsu, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Greko-Roman, Judo and some others that I've long since forgotten the names of. Add to that the ground techniques of several other arts, with all their similarities of movement to the above. 

I care less where something came from, and more for the answers to the questions of "Can I do that?", "Can I do that when it counts" and "Can I do that in an effective manner when it counts?". I approach training not in the "belt collector" mentality, or the "Ooh what a big number you have" manner but a simpler "problem-solution" manner.  Knowing how to count to ten in a foreign language will not save your **** in a conflict, nor will that fancy colour paper in the frame on your wall. Knowing all the technical terms means nothing if one cannot implement the solution to the problematic situation currently threatening their continued healthy existence.

So, please excuse me if I cannot name names, regurgitate meaningless historical trivia, or present proper papers and an fancy embroidered belt with ten or more stripes on it.

There are those who will spend decades seeking to master a single art, who will achieve "proper credentials", earn the high dan, and I begrudge them none of it. That path, is a difficult one, one that few truly earn, and too many buy. Those that truly earn it, truly have my deep and honest respect. But their path is not my path. I seek not to teach others, but to understand myself.

As I stated in my previous, oft misunderstood missive, "Your Opinion, She Stinks", we all have our individual expressions of the perfection of humanity. My own, I am Master of. Of yours, I leave its mastery to you.

So, have I now answered the questions, and may we now return to the subject I originally breached here, or shall I dig through my notes to try and present the complete itinerary of every event, seminar and instructor I have ever encountered in my long career, so that someone here can then independently harass them to see if they recall a dark haired individual who asked many questions, and if they cannot that you may then cast me to the Great Debate for interrogation and debunkery? It is bad enough that there are fools at KenpoTalk who will not give credence to someone unless they are in the correct lineage, with the correct rank, with the correct number of stripes on their belt, and correct signatures upon their paper. 
I expected better here. 
Was I incorrect?


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## LawDog (Jul 4, 2007)

When entering a world where there exists real fighters and tough guys expect their responses will be the same.
Direct and to the point they are, bullies they are not.
:asian:


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## Shotochem (Jul 4, 2007)

The Master said:


> So, have I now answered the questions, and may we now return to the subject I originally breached here, or shall I dig through my notes to try and present the complete itinerary of every event, seminar and instructor I have ever encountered in my long career, so that someone here can then independently harass them to see if they recall a dark haired individual who asked many questions, and if they cannot that you may then cast me to the Great Debate for interrogation and debunkery? It is bad enough that there are fools at KenpoTalk who will not give credence to someone unless they are in the correct lineage, with the correct rank, with the correct number of stripes on their belt, and correct signatures upon their paper.
> I expected better here.
> Was I incorrect?



John, are we not in agreement that this is not only limited to Kem(n)po but all MA?

I have moved on. I am not defending or condemning my current art of Kempo.  I enjoy who I am training with and who I am learning from.  Make no mistake, if I were to encounter anything like my prior experience I would leave immediately.

You seem like a highly intelligent individual. Why do you really care what a bunch of guys on an internet forum think?

We have some good people here who enjoy a good debate.  I tend to read more than post.  If we all agree on everything this would be one boring website. 

Lets all keep on posting, there is so much to learn, good, bad, ugly, no matter, it's all in good fun.

-Marc-


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## arnisador (Jul 4, 2007)

The Master said:


> If you can recall, with perfect clarity every technique that you have ever been shown, and with equal clarity of recall, its noted source



You and Mr. Hubbard are referring to specific techniques. But that's not at all what I asked about. I asked about _styles _you had "done" as part of "research" you were conducting. Yes, I'd expect that to be a significant piece of information that one would recall, unless you consider taking a seminar to be the same as studying a system.



> without referring to any written or otherwise recorded notation



No one said you couldn't use your notes. This is an open-book situation. Are you posting from your home?

As for making your own personal style, that's great, though it's hard to do entirely on one's own without a partner(s) to help perfect the techniques (esp. where grappling is concerned).



> may we now return to the subject I originally breached here



The Kenpoists? Yeah, they drive me crazy too. Far too many feel that their way is the only way, because it's "scientific". I've had this debate here several times before.



> I expected better here.
> Was I incorrect?



Pass.


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## eyebeams (Jul 4, 2007)

It's unseemly to beg for face.


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## Hand Sword (Jul 5, 2007)

I still think it should be considered that since the old ways of deamanding respect are very small now, replaced by a much friendlier world of all martial arts, that those who scream for it have an extra lense focussed on them. It's always been around, it's just "odd" now or brought to attention because the crowd has changed. With that also comes an unfamiliararity and a negative view that blows it out of proportion from the newer generation.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of jerks who are nothing but ego's, especially after Mr. parker passed on. A lot of the members of the pack vying to be the top dog. All they have done was use the ideology that Kenpo was an upgrade over what was, and have expanded it to be used against each other. Whether Kenpo is or not is another thread topic.


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## Kosho-Monk (Jul 5, 2007)

Getting back to manners...


I am sitting here and thinking about what we as martial artists put up with.  For instance, I know of a several high-ranking martial artists who are always drunk.  At least every time I see them.  

If these individuals were teachers of a different profession they would probably be fired or at least not allowed to teach.  Yet in the martial arts we seem to ingore this.

I was at a seminar once where the guest teacher smelled like hard liquor and spent most of the time talking about politics instead of martial arts.  And because I seem to have "manners" I dare not speak his name here.  Yet me and several other students at this seminar talked about it at length after the teacher left.  And we all agreed that this was not a man we wanted to follow.

Of course, if this teacher was not a martial artist and perhaps a teacher of some other subject, I might tell everyone in order to inform the masses as some kind of public service.

So why do we do this?  Do we really not care that our "leaders" are on a road of self-destruction?  If our friend was a drunk, on his ump-teenth marriage, lied to us several times and conned us out of money would we still call him "master" or "sensei" or whatever, simply because he knows a few martial art tricks?  

Are the lessons of how to hurt others really so important that we will lay our morals and integrity to the side of the road in order to learn them?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am no longer going to support these types of "teachers".  I believe they are not teaching the true ways of martial arts.  Perhaps they are teaching the way of the bully or the con-man, but certainly not the way of the warrior.  The true warrior, imo, is someone who is trust worthy and noble.  And when we look at the japenese titles like renshi, kyoshi and hanshi, the "shi" means gentleman.  Are the ones who use these titles really acting accordingly?  Or how about the ones who use titles like "sigung"... are they really acting like a responsible member of the family?  A grandfather you can look up to?

For those of you who are out there leading by example and carrying on the honorable traditions of the martial arts, I bow to you. 


With respect,
John Evans


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## Kacey (Jul 5, 2007)

In the end, manners, like many other things, come down to personal integrity.  My personal integrity leads me to follow the rules of courtesy with all whose station deserves it; however, my personal integrity also dictates that I show genuine respect only to those deserving of it.

As John Evans said, many times martial artists will turn a seemingly blind eye toward seniors whose behavior is not appropriate for their rank - I will, however, disagree that it only happens in the martial arts; other areas have their own version of rank and how those junior in rank must act towards those who are senior, including (but not limited to) medicine, armed forces, business, and law.  It is the obligation of each of us to respond appropriately to the abuse, misuse, or other inappropriate actions by those higher in rank; the method that such response should take will vary depending on the relative ranks of those involved, the type of organization/institution, and the type of action that is being responded to.

How does this relate to manners?  In a thread sparked by this one, I discussed the difference between demanding respect and earning it - the above relates to a third issue - _expecting_ respect.  As with those who _demand_ respect based on their rank/experience/etc., those who _expect_ respect frequently don't deserve it - but their rank/experience _does_ entitle them to the outward demonstration of respect, in that the forms of courtesy must be observed in their presence.  Respect for the organization in which the person has a position, however, dictates that outside of the person's presence, steps must be taken (too various to discuss here) to prevent such persons from _using _their rank, and the respect due the rank, to the detriment of others.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 5, 2007)

Time to irk a few folks.

Respect is an interesting thing.

I have great respect for certain organizations. As a group they have accomplished wonderful things.  I may still consider individual members to be lacking.

I can respect a persons position, their accomplishments, and what it took for them to get there, and still consider the person themselves, contemptible.

I'm not impressed when someone throws a high rank, fancy title, or multiple-decade long training history at me, and expects me to bow and scrape and be all impressed and give them special leeway to be a jackass on my sites. That's not the act of a humble person. That's not the act of someone who is worthy of personal respect, imho.  I will respect their achievements, but as a person, no. 

I don't care who they trained with either.  Too often I hear "I was a personal student of X" which translates into "I was a pain in his *** every time he came to town".  Oh, many did get the one on one training, but there are a few, and we all know someone who has embellished their resume more than a fair bit. 

You want my respect? Ok. You have it.  
You have the respect that all good hosts show their guests. 
Beyond that, you earn it. 
You show me that you aren't an arrogant stuffed gi. 
You show me that you are man (or woman) enough to admit when you may be wrong, and will accept a minor staff nudge in a polite manner. (Not blowing up and taking things as if we'd slapped and depanted the Queen. Yes, we've had at least 1 9th or 10th dan go ape over a "please keep it polite" public nudge.) 
You don't send me a profanity laced "love letter" insulting me, and my staff at a personal and professional level because someone else said something you don't like. (Happens quite often really). 
You don't tell me nice things to my face, then go to another board and tell the world how much I suck.  
Respect is a 2 way street, and on countless days I and our staff here has stood there and taken it as some disgruntled baboon has flung their poo at us, and not countered. 

I've had a dozen+ threats of lawsuits in the 8 years this sites been running.
None came from no belts. All came from those claiming high rank.  When you remove the full out frauds from the mix, the rest, all legit. And all threatening action where a friendly and respectful "hey, got a problem, can you help?" would have sufficed.

And all started out "I've been training for 30+ years......" or "I'm a student of Highly Revered Diety Guy" or "I'm Master so and so, and I have a 233rd dan in WhoFlungPooDo..." and continue with "You will do as I say and kiss my ring or I will SUEEEEEEEE Yooooou!"
Right.  Bite me.

I'll continue to be polite. I'll continue to be respectful, at least at a professional level, until such time as we've built a relationship and established a personal level of respect. 

Or such time as we haven't. At which time, one of us won't be here.
I don't go anywhere.

Respect is both given and earned.
It is also lost.
Sadly, I've dealt with too many who are happy to lose it, just so they can let you know how great they are one more time.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Jul 5, 2007)

I was taught that true leaders inspire & influence.
Imposters drive, demand, & degrade.


_Don Flatt


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## Kacey (Jul 5, 2007)

Great post, Bob!


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## LawDog (Jul 5, 2007)

Respect is a two way street, 
No one should demand that it be given and no one should demand that it has to be earned from them.
:asian:


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## Kosho-Monk (Jul 6, 2007)

I have found that most martial arts "masters" are too arrogant to admit they have made a mistake.  I once told a teacher that I had gotten complaints about a seminar he taught.  The students felt he didn't really teach the subject matter that he said he would.  His response was basically that the students weren't at his level of understanding yet and they should know not to sign up for future classes of his.

He also only taught for about half of the time he said he would but still charged me full price.  And then he had the nerve to ask students to pay him to set up another seminar during the one he was teaching.  This was because I said I wasn't going to set up another seminar at that time.

Needless to say I haven't spoken to him since and don't think I will ever again unless he calls to apologize.  But he probably won't.

I agree with the statement that manners are a two-way street.  But that's not what I've seen on many occassions.


With respect,
John Evans


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## The Master (Jul 6, 2007)

I have penned, or keyed as it were, two missives here, describing a particular occurrence. One that happens in many other arts such as JKD and Wing Chun to name two. I have seen however that the extent applies more often to Kenpo than the rest. It may be simply due to the larger participation of kenpo practitioners on the forums I frequent compared to their brethren. The conclusions though, are there to be seen.

A discussion involving kenpo will often descend into the pointless debate over who is doing it "right", and involve arguments over lineage to determine what "right" truly is. When this happens, any pretext of the concept of "respect" and too often "manners" is thrown away, so that those involved can then engage in a battle of wits, with both subtle and direct insults used.

I believe it has been said that rather than arguing over who does the "right" kenpo, it should be discussed on what "effective" kenpo is. To that, I agree. As I stated in one of my earlier writings, we are all different. To that I will add, better to adapt kenpo to our capabilities and make it effective for us, than to force ourselves into awkward positions so that we are text-book perfect, but functionally useless.

However, don't take my no-rank word for this. Print this page out, and take it to whichever individual whose words and opinions hold weight with you and have them read it. This way, if they find these words sound, you can rest assured that the thoughts have been validated by someone with the correct number of stripes on their belt, the correct signatures on their papers, and the correct colour of gi upon their back. After all, truth is only truth if the right people tell it to you, correct?


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## Matt (Jul 16, 2007)

The Master said:


> I believe it has been said that rather than arguing over who does the "right" kenpo, it should be discussed on what "effective" kenpo is. To that, I agree. As I stated in one of my earlier writings, we are all different. To that I will add, better to adapt kenpo to our capabilities and make it effective for us, than to force ourselves into awkward positions so that we are text-book perfect, but functionally useless.
> 
> However, don't take my no-rank word for this. Print this page out, and take it to whichever individual whose words and opinions hold weight with you and have them read it. This way, if they find these words sound, you can rest assured that the thoughts have been validated by someone with the correct number of stripes on their belt, the correct signatures on their papers, and the correct colour of gi upon their back. After all, truth is only truth if the right people tell it to you, correct?



I think you are getting somewhere. That was almost readable, with only a minimum of tortured pretense. These are great points, especially the adversarial relationship of textbook perfection to functional movement. 

Matt


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## DavidCC (Jul 17, 2007)

The Master said:


> IAs I stated in one of my earlier writings, we are all different. To that I will add, better to adapt kenpo to our capabilities and make it effective for us, than to force ourselves into awkward positions so that we are text-book perfect, but functionally useless.


 
I'm curious what differences you are referring to...
height 
weight
restrictions on normal movement due to previous inuries or congenital defects
what else?



so if we look at something like an inward block, do you think that it really needs to be "tailored" becasue of someone's height or weight etc?

IMHO, I think we are all much much more the same than we are different, and that often "I'm different" is nothing but a crutch or an excuse to not put in the hard work to do it "right" (with "right" being defined as "the method that maximizes the potential of the human anatomy").



> ...force ourselves into awkward positions so that we are text-book perfect, but functionally useless


 
your textbook must not be that great if it's perfection is awkward and ineffective LOL


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## The Master (Jul 17, 2007)

..


DavidCC said:


> I'm curious what differences you are referring to...
> height
> weight
> restrictions on normal movement due to previous inuries or congenital defects
> what else?


 
That is a good list I think. After all, how many attackers will be so kind and considerate as to only pick on people their own size?




> so if we look at something like an inward block, do you think that it really needs to be "tailored" becasue of someone's height or weight etc?


 
Ponder how Tattoo would block the upper cut from Mr. Roarke during his final performance review, or how PeeWee Herman would counter the reigning Yokozuna, and the answer will be apparent. 

Pair up the 4 ft teen girl (all of 7 stone soaking wet), with the 6'5 body builder (250 lbs, ripped muscle). Now lets work those techniques, and see what happens to "text book" vs "reality". 

Any art trained for self defense fails in that mission if the defender is not taught how to adapt to changing situations, and being at a true tactical disadvantage in such situations.  Out of the 4 kenpo schools I have visited, only 1 was teaching that. The rest insisted on "'by the book", or had "repaired" kenpo by removing the techniques they did not understand and replacing them with parts of other arts.  

For those keeping score on such things, 2 claimed EPAK, 1 claimed Tracy, and 1 claimed some bastardized mixed version with at least 3 dotted line lineages in addition to their solid primary line and 2 whited out prior primaries. (You could supersize there)



> IMHO, I think we are all much much more the same than we are different, and that often "I'm different" is nothing but a crutch or an excuse to not put in the hard work to do it "right" (with "right" being defined as "the method that maximizes the potential of the human anatomy").


 
Humanity comes in countless heights, weights, and sizes. An art that can not adapt to such things, is not as useful as one that does. Pity the poor lefties, forced to always use their weak side, since EPAK is never done on 'the left'. (From a 5th dan kenpo instructor of some note, who shall remain nameless. I was "corrected" at that event for doing 5 swords from both the left and right.)



> your textbook must not be that great if it's perfection is awkward and ineffective LOL


 
My text would allow for the imperfect to succeed. Remember, "Drunken Monkey" may look bizarre, but it works quite well, in it's logical illogic.

Ook Eek Op Ah Ah.
:asian:


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## DavidCC (Jul 17, 2007)

The Master said:


> Ponder how Tattoo would block the upper cut from Mr. Roarke during his final performance review, or how PeeWee Herman would counter the reigning Yokozuna, and the answer will be apparent.
> 
> Pair up the 4 ft teen girl (all of 7 stone soaking wet), with the 6'5 body builder (250 lbs, ripped muscle). Now lets work those techniques, and see what happens to "text book" vs "reality".


 
I think the question with these extremes of size difference becomes "should they be blocking" not "should they block differently".  

If you can teach Katie the 4ft teen the MOST efficent way to do a specific block, why would she need any other ways to do that same block?


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## Carol (Jul 17, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> IMHO, I think we are all much much more the same than we are different



We are.  Tom Sotis (AMOK founder) emphasizes that we are of universal design, but varying proportions.  

One of the students asked about different sized people.  When he described this, he was standing by a white board, and the rest of us were either kneeling or sitting cross legged around him.  

He asked the student if we were the same, or if we were different.  The student said "different".  He then gently grabbed the student's left bicep and pulled it outward.  

He then went to the next student and pulled his left bicep outward.  And the next, and the next.   "You're all moving the same way" he commented.  If I pull on your arm in this fashion, you're all going to shift to the left.  Universal design.

He then went on....our limbs are all in the same place, organs in the same place, ribs in the same place...universal design.

I agree with you David...having a tiny teen go up against a big dude, isn't a matter of knowing different ways to block, its knowing when to block the proper way and when to...not block and take another tactic instead (such as parrying and getting off centerline.)


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