# Dealing with a school bully



## dleeret (May 6, 2008)

Last Friday, my 13 year old 7th grade son was bullied at school.  Several weeks ago he stumbled upon a fist fight in the boys bathroom and reported it to a teacher.  Both boys were suspended.  On Friday one of the boys that was suspended cornered my son after class and shoved him into the wall - twice - then punched him in the stomach.  My son is a red belt and has been in taekwondo for four years.  He can break number 2 pine boards with a variety of kicks, stikes and punches.  The bully is only about 10 pounds heavier and an inch taller than my son.  BUT instead of defending himself and getting suspended, he stood with his arm down and took the hits.  The bully was suspended again and my son was praised by the Dean of Schools for his self control.  Most kids don't know he's in TKD - incuding the bully - and the Dean did not know, either (she does now).

I'm certain my son could do all sorts of damage to this kid.  He told me it took alot of inner strength to not take the kid out.  But even if he simply blocks the attack he will be suspended and it will go on his permanent record.  I'm looking for suggestions in case this happens again.


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## theletch1 (May 6, 2008)

You can check out this thread regarding zero tolerance *spit* policies in schools.  You can also do a search of the various forums here using the search terms "bully" and "zero tolerance".  There's ton's of info on this site about just this situation.  Hope your son comes out alright for this.


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## jks9199 (May 6, 2008)

dleeret said:


> Last Friday, my 13 year old 7th grade son was bullied at school.  Several weeks ago he stumbled upon a fist fight in the boys bathroom and reported it to a teacher.  Both boys were suspended.  On Friday one of the boys that was suspended cornered my son after class and shoved him into the wall - twice - then punched him in the stomach.  My son is a red belt and has been in taekwondo for four years.  He can break number 2 pine boards with a variety of kicks, stikes and punches.  The bully is only about 10 pounds heavier and an inch taller than my son.  BUT instead of defending himself and getting suspended, he stood with his arm down and took the hits.  The bully was suspended again and my son was praised by the Dean of Schools for his self control.  Most kids don't know he's in TKD - incuding the bully - and the Dean did not know, either (she does now).
> 
> I'm certain my son could do all sorts of damage to this kid.  He told me it took alot of inner strength to not take the kid out.  But even if he simply blocks the attack he will be suspended and it will go on his permanent record.  I'm looking for suggestions in case this happens again.


So, the lesson your son gets to walk away with (fortunately, this time he can walk away) is that bullies get suspended while he gets hurt.

STUPID.

STUPID POLICY.

If it's clear that the kid's being attacked, he should be able to defend himself in a reasonable manner.  No, he can't choke a kid out or break a limb for a push...  But he should damn well be able to protect himself.

As an alternative to direct counterattacks, throws and evasions can be used "accidentallY" allowing an attacker to injure themselves...  Not that I'd ever advocate disobeying a stupid policy like "get beat up or get suspended."


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## MA-Caver (May 6, 2008)

First off your son should be (quietly) praised for his willingness to "stand-down" during this _type_ of attack. He knew the consequences of his actions and wisely decided the best course of action was no action. The bully was suspended again and it marks a victory for your son. I bow respectfully to him, and to his teacher and to you sir, for obviously your son has been taught wisdom on confronting someone like this, though he has the ability to "take him out" as you say, he still chose not to. 
In my opinion/view he shows a warrior's ability to stay his hand in the face of an inferior opponent. 

That kids cannot defend themselves without consequences is a sad state of today's educational world. In my day fights happened all the time but usually the one who "started" the fight (if there were witnesses who spoke up... if any) got the suspension, even if the instigator was the loser of the fight. 

I would talk to the principal again and discuss alternatives to the suspension should your son have to face these bullies again... and chances are he will. They DO not go away after a couple "slaps on the wrist" like suspensions. Surely the principal knows this if they have spent any years in the educational mill, they will have seen what bullies are capable of and (probably grudgingly agree that sometimes the best way to handle, curtail a bully is to give them their own medicine). 
This is not to say giving him permission to kick the bully's *** next time they're up against each other, but to at least have some measure of strength/skill shown so that the bully will (maybe) realize that "this little dog bites back... and it hurts!" 

Or someone else may have a better idea.


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## Bigshadow (May 6, 2008)

I won't advise you on how to handle this with your son.  However, I will tell you this...

I have told my 13yo son, regardless of the school policies, he is to do only what is necessary to stop the attack and mitigate bodily harm to himself, no more, no less.  

When he was little (elementary school) I told him he should tell the teacher and not fight back.  In middle school, kids are bigger, stronger, bolder, and are capable of doing far more harm.  Regardless, it is my opinion, that everyone is responsible for their own safety.  As long as he does ONLY what is necessary, he is not doing anything out of vengeance and can walk away with a good heart and a clear conscious.

Yeah, the school policy says something else and he may have to get punished for defending himself, but IMO a child should not have just take it like innocent sheep.


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## igillman (May 6, 2008)

I used to work at a school and almost all of the administrators I met did not like the zero tolerance policy. Fortunately they can hide behind the privacy policy when it comes time to dish out punishment. You will find that if your kid is a good student and the other kid is a known bully your kid can get away with defending themselves. They will pay lip service to the punishment aspect but they do not have to reveal to anybody else what the punishment was for either child.

Principals answer to the superintendent who, in turn, answers to the school board. If the principal gives you hassles then take it up with the superintendent. If they give you problems then take it up with the school board. Just do not take "no" for an answer when dealing with them, anything and everything can be changed given the right incentive.


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## IcemanSK (May 6, 2008)

Bigshadow said:


> I won't advise you on how to handle this with your son. However, I will tell you this...
> 
> I have told my 13yo son, regardless of the school policies, he is to do only what is necessary to stop the attack and mitigate bodily harm to himself, no more, no less.
> 
> ...


 

Well said, Shadow.

I think that if your son is comfortable doing what he did, good. If he does anything to protect him in school, he knows he has consequences from the school (despite the fact that he is only defending himself). If there comes a time when he either needs to defend himself against an attack (& get suspended for doing so) or stand there, do nothing, & potentially get hurt- he might make a different choice next time. A perfect attendance record may not be as important to him as protecting himself, next time.


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## FieldDiscipline (May 6, 2008)

I agree with Big Shadow on this one.  Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.


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## Andy Moynihan (May 6, 2008)

My advice is to get on the principal's *** and get this incident and any others documented. show up with police reports so that they know enough's enough and if it happens again it will get serious and there *will* be no repercussions for your son defending himself from here on out.

Get on their *** right now because I guarantee you that little **** and his little pals are not done with your son yet.


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## terryl965 (May 6, 2008)

Bigshadow said:


> I won't advise you on how to handle this with your son. However, I will tell you this...
> 
> I have told my 13yo son, regardless of the school policies, he is to do only what is necessary to stop the attack and mitigate bodily harm to himself, no more, no less.
> 
> ...


 
I have told my boys just about the same.


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## FieldDiscipline (May 6, 2008)

I dont understand, and would welcome explanation btw, how a school zero tolerance policy can overule the law of the land on the right to self defence.


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## Empty Hands (May 6, 2008)

dleeret said:


> But even if he simply blocks the attack he will be suspended and it will go on his permanent record.



Don't fall for the permanent record shtick.  I heard that all growing up, and it never stopped me from attending the classes I wanted or applying to college.  Getting suspended for a few days for defending himself won't affect your kid's chance of getting to college, and it almost certainly will stop the bullying.


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## MA-Caver (May 6, 2008)

Bigshadow said:


> I won't advise you on how to handle this with your son.  However, I will tell you this...
> 
> I have told my 13yo son, regardless of the school policies, he is to do only what is necessary to stop the attack and mitigate bodily harm to himself, no more, no less.
> 
> ...



Gee, everyone who agrees with you makes me look timid by comparison.  
Likewise I agree here as well... but the boy showed restraint and took the hits. 
Think about this for a moment. He's a red belt in TKD... he's most likely strong enough and fit enough to take hits from someone who isn't... only the bully didn't know it. Sort of compare it to a wolf biting on a wool covered sheepdog. Just too stupid to realize what might be hiding under that "sheep's clothing." 
But yeah, I'm frustrated too at the policies implemented in today's education system, but the key thing is the kid doing what is/was the right thing. The REAL right thing. Not fighting when he could've and done much more damage than could've been done to him. I'm sure that he had an invisible line that in spite of his self-control, and that the bully wasn't (knowingly) crossing it ... maybe toeing the line but he hadn't crossed it. If he had I think the outcome would've been different... vastly different. 
Talking with the Dean about this and yes, definitely file a police report.



FieldDiscipline said:


> I don't understand, and would welcome explanation btw, how a school zero tolerance policy can overrule the law of the land on the right to self defense.


Apparently the law of the land doesn't apply to (young) students in public schools. You get some whiny parent of the bully crying out excessiveness or even fully denying the actions of their child and making the defender look guilty. There are certain lawyers who are responsible for this nonsense.


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## FieldDiscipline (May 6, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Apparently the law of the land doesn't apply to (young) students in public schools. You get some whiny parent of the bully crying out excessiveness or even fully denying the actions of their child and making the defender look guilty. There are certain lawyers who are responsible for this nonsense.



Cant say I'm suprised.  I wonder what effect the Human Rights Act would have on that over here...


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## Jade Tigress (May 6, 2008)

First and foremost, kudos to your son for his self-control and restraint. :asian:

When it comes to bullies, and my son has been bullied plenty, I am of the school to defend yourself. If you always *take it* you will always be bullied. 

My son has defended himself in the past and bullies have learned not to mess with him. The difference in situation is, over the years, he's never been caught. If he was, and if he was suspended, I'd live with it. Better he has a suspension on his record than live through a childhood of bullying and fear. 

I'm not advocating taking swings at the first sign of bullying. If you can get out of it, do so. The thing about bullies is, they find their targets, those whom they consider weak, and they pick and pick and pick. And then _sometimes_, a day comes when the bullied has had enough and walks into school on a killing spree. 

I support zero-tolerance against bullying, I don't support zero-tolerance against self-defense. I would feel for school staff trying to sort out which is which though. 

Once again, I applaud your son. I think he did the right thing first time around. If this kid continued to bully him though, I'd tell him he doesn't have to hold back if he doesn't want to, and that as his parent, I support his right to defend himself. If he chooses not to, that's fine, that's his choice. But I wouldn't want him to *take it* because he's afraid of what will happen if he gets suspended. I think there's more at risk to his psyche in the long run than being suspended would be.


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## dleeret (May 6, 2008)

Thanks for everyone's responses on this.  As for going on a killing spree, I probably should have mentioned that this school is about 5 miles as the crow flies from Columbine HS.  I'm not sure it makes a difference but it hit VERY close to home so our school district is probably a little hyper sensitive on the issue.  But the zero tolerance policy doesn't seem to help the problem...


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## Sukerkin (May 6, 2008)

Some good points being made by all above.  

I am aware that the circumstances and environment are very different from the background I had during my school years but I thought the experiences of someone else who experienced bullying for a while might prove interesting (to show how things have changed if nothing else).

I was brought up in a very religious family and one within which total non-violence was mandated, no matter what the provocation.  Now, to my shame, my innate nature is very aggressive and I had to suffer the ironic indignity of my father 'beating fighting out of me'; it took quite a few years but he managed it by the time I reached Secondary School age (that should answer all those supporting a ban on corporal punishment ).

I've told the story in more detail elsewhere a while ago but the upshot is that it took almost no time at all for the local bullies to get around to me; my guess is they were sampling the 'pool' for victims.  Given that I had been trained not to fight back but was too stubborn to run away, I had no choice but' Cool Hand Luke' it and keep getting up every time they knocked me down.  That won me some 'defenders' from my class mates and altho' it was not the immediate end of the matter, word got around that it was pointless and frustrating to try to bully me because I wouldn't fight and I wouldn't flee.

So returning violence for violence isn't the only way.  Now as I said above, I know the world is different now than it was then and what I would term 'moral courage' does not engender the respect it deserves but if your son can handle it, then he does walk a nobler path by keeping his fists down.  There's a distinct and important difference between being a victim and controlling your impulses.

As a caveat tho', I have to confess that years later one of my classmates told me that he reckoned one reason why I stopped being hit so quickly was that, besides the bullies being confused by my refusal to stay down, they could also see the 'murder' in my eyes when I got back up .


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## jks9199 (May 6, 2008)

FieldDiscipline said:


> I dont understand, and would welcome explanation btw, how a school zero tolerance policy can overule the law of the land on the right to self defence.


Self defense is a justification for an act that would otherwise be illegal; you don't really have (unless your state has codified such) a right to self defense or a law that you can use force to defend yourself.

But even if there was such a law, the school is free to be more restrictive in when or how you may defend yourself.  They can't be less restrictive; they can't overlook a murder because the victim was a bully, to be extreme, but they can have a rule or policy at the school that anyone and everyone involved in a fight will be suspended.  In theory, they could have a policy so restrictive that even simply standing there and being a punching bag is considered "involved" or "participating" and the victim gets suspended!  (That's the heart of "zero tolerance" policies; we don't tloerate ANY of that behavior.)

It's also to important to understand different levels of sanctions.  There is criminal law; violate those, and you get punished as prescribed by the law.  Examples might be 5 to 20 years for robbery, 5 days in jail and a $150 fine for trespass, or a $35 fine for running a stop sign.  But an employer, business, or anywhere else can have their own rules and policies, too.  So, your employer might suspend you for a week if you get a speeding ticket, or a mall might prohibit children under 16 without an adult, and kick them out.  Or the school might decide that any student involved in a fight, or possessing any knife -- even a steak knife to cut his lunch -- is suspended.


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## Kacey (May 6, 2008)

As others have said, your son did _exactly_ what he should do - and I say that as both a school teacher and a TKD instructor (and as an aside, I'm wondering who your son's instructor is - I know several in that area).  However, also as a teacher and a TKD instructor, I will also say that, should this idiot of a bully try again, your son should block... and, if that is insufficient, he should do the bare minimum necessary in terms of counter-attacks to defend himself.  

I am also trained as a school guidance counselor - and unless your son gets expelled (and sometimes not even then) he will be given the opportunity to explain _why_ he was suspended... if any prospective colleges even look at his cumulative record beyond checking his grades.  I'm not saying that he should go out and beat the crap out of this bully (although it sounds like the bully deserves it) - but neither should he let fear of what is in his cumulative record prevent him from defending himself _using the minimum force necessary_.

Please let us know how it goes from here.


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## Jade Tigress (May 6, 2008)

Kacey said:


> As others have said, your son did _exactly_ what he should do - and I say that as both a school teacher and a TKD instructor (and as an aside, I'm wondering who your son's instructor is - I know several in that area).  However, also as a teacher and a TKD instructor, I will also say that, should this idiot of a bully try again, your son should block... and, if that is insufficient, he should do the bare minimum necessary in terms of counter-attacks to defend himself.
> 
> I am also trained as a school guidance counselor - and unless your son gets expelled (and sometimes not even then) he will be given the opportunity to explain _why_ he was suspended... if any prospective colleges even look at his cumulative record beyond checking his grades.  I'm not saying that he should go out and beat the crap out of this bully (although it sounds like the bully deserves it) - but neither should he let fear of what is in his cumulative record prevent him from defending himself _using the minimum force necessary_.
> 
> Please let us know how it goes from here.



Great post Kacey. You pointed out better than I about using the minimum force necessary. I didn't say it point blank but I was thinking it. I just assumed you all were mind readers! lol 

Always start with the minimum necessary. If that doesn't work, it's step two, and so on. I'm NOT advocating beating the crap out of someone, that's not "self-defense". 

:asian:


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## MBuzzy (May 6, 2008)

As someone who was a target of a great many people for almost 3 years....I can say that the physical part isn't necessarily all of it.  My treatment in middle school was the reason that I got involved in martial arts, because everyone was bigger, stronger and took pleasure in beating on me.  

My problem was, once the school administration found out about the physical violence and threatened punishment on the bullies, they turned to more covert methods.  Personally, I would have RATHER been beaten on or even had the chance to fight back.  The worst part about this situation is that if your son doesn't show in some way that he will not stand for it, once the bullies see that they won't get away with it, there is a chance that they will go to psychological torture.  Which, honestly is much worse.  THAT is what makes Columbines.  Not the physical abuse, but the mental abuse and picking on.  Especially if the bully recruits bully friends to compound the behavior.

Just something to think about....In my opinion, this is what you should really worry about.  You can block a punch, but you can't block a constant barrage of people's insults.  To a kid, that can cause serious issues.

Either way, I would be in the school board meeting or in the Principle's office without delay to discuss the problem further.


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## MA-Caver (May 6, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> As someone who was a target of a great many people for almost 3 years....I can say that the physical part isn't necessarily all of it.  My treatment in middle school was the reason that I got involved in martial arts, because everyone was bigger, stronger and took pleasure in beating on me.
> 
> My problem was, once the school administration found out about the physical violence and threatened punishment on the bullies, they turned to more covert methods.  Personally, I would have RATHER been beaten on or even had the chance to fight back.  The worst part about this situation is that if your son doesn't show in some way that he will not stand for it, once the bullies see that they won't get away with it, there is a chance that they will go to psychological torture.  Which, honestly is much worse.  THAT is what makes Columbines.  Not the physical abuse, but the mental abuse and picking on.  Especially if the bully recruits bully friends to compound the behavior.
> 
> Just something to think about....In my opinion, this is what you should really worry about.  You can block a punch, but you can't block a constant barrage of people's insults.  To a kid, that can cause serious issues.



Agree with ya there Buzzy, I had the same crap through late elementary through late high-school of not only being physically picked on but being teased about something or another. 
School is a place to learn but it's also a place to find your place in this life and learn how to MAKE your place in this life better as well. I right now don't take crap from anyone anymore and I learned how to do that during high-school when that thing inside of me said ENOUGH! 
Started learning MA and started standing up for myself. If I had some social life's crisis learning period interfering namby pamby attorney trying to keep me from fighting back then I'd still be a wuss to this day.


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## shesulsa (May 6, 2008)

I will say it takes courage ... steelies, even ... to allow oneself to get beat on and NOT respond in kind.  It's a conflicting feeling, knowing that your kid can take care of the threat, can even harm the other kid yet made the careful, conscious choice to take punches.

First, he did absolutely the right thing by getting the administrators involved - not once, but TWICE, without his own violent response. Hopefully these actions have invested faith in them that they trust he will do what he must.

Then, you will have to discuss what he "must" do in various situations ... as it's right for you.

My youngest broke up a fight between two kids - one child was on the ground about to get his stomach jumped on by a much larger child. My son pushed him away, that child wound up falling and hitting his head on the ground, thus my son was written up.

I published a letter to the principal and the board stating that I consider it my son's civic duty to protect people who are clearly being victimized, especially when the adult on duty was nowhere to be found at the time.

We talk about it often - the rules for my kids from me:


don't break up a fight unless you feel you simply HAVE to in order to save another from serious injury
NEVER break up a fight involving a weapon,
report every physical conflict seen or experienced
NEVER lie about the events, even if you screwed up
if you can block and lock your way through a fight and never have to strike, do it
if a weapon is involved, RUN to the nearest adult
make sure you HAVE to strike before you do
Only under these parameters will I ever defend my kids' actions in a fight.  The administrators for the schools my kids attend ALL know this and they know my kids have training.  They also know I will be right in line to be sure they pay for any blatantly broken rules.

I don't believe in zero tolerance.  It produces a society of people who will not report violent crime - walk right by it as it's happening, look the other way and never report it.  Of course we do this while our government whittles away at our rights and ... walk right by as it's happening, look the other say and never do anything about it.



You have to make this decision with your family, decide on how far you'll go to defend your children and figure what's right for them.

Good luck and ... please bow to your son for me. :asian:


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## Jade Tigress (May 7, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> As someone who was a target of a great many people for almost 3 years....I can say that the physical part isn't necessarily all of it.  My treatment in middle school was the reason that I got involved in martial arts, because everyone was bigger, stronger and took pleasure in beating on me.
> 
> My problem was, once the school administration found out about the physical violence and threatened punishment on the bullies, they turned to more covert methods.  Personally, I would have RATHER been beaten on or even had the chance to fight back.  The worst part about this situation is that if your son doesn't show in some way that he will not stand for it, once the bullies see that they won't get away with it, there is a chance that they will go to psychological torture.  Which, honestly is much worse.  THAT is what makes Columbines.  Not the physical abuse, but the mental abuse and picking on.  Especially if the bully recruits bully friends to compound the behavior.
> 
> ...



This is so true. Bullies don't stop bullying because they get in trouble by the school. They just turn to more covert methods. In the types of bullying I've witnessed, even right from the start, they have resorted to emotional bullying at the times they cannot physically bully, and the unfortunate victim endures both. 

When they become more covert they turn not only to upping the emotional torture, but to *little* things such as tripping, *accidentally* knocking objects off a desk, etc. I've never seen getting in trouble with the school stop a bully. The only thing I've ever seen stop a bully is when the victim refuses to be victimized anymore. Bullies are cowards, they look for *weak* victims. If someone is no longer perceived as weak, they look for an easier target. 

I absolutely hate bullies. 





			
				Shesulsa said:
			
		

> We talk about it often - the rules for my kids from me:
> don't break up a fight unless you feel you simply HAVE to in order to save another from serious injury
> NEVER break up a fight involving a weapon,
> report every physical conflict seen or experienced
> ...



This is a perfect Code of Conduct (to steal from another thread) on dealing with violent situations. Usually, if a child is reported to his parents as a bully, the parent unwaveringly defends the child. If one of my kids was ever reported to me as such, you can bet your sweet *** there'd be hell to pay for that kid. I will never defend my children against a wrong act they've committed. They'll have to pay the price for the wrong action. I will defend their right to always _reasonably_ protect themselves. 

When my son was dealing with bullies, he simply gave it back to them. He didn't seek them out and bully back, mind you. But if he got shoved, he shoved back. If he was called a name, he slung one back. If he was *covertly* tripped in the hall to laughter, next time that bully walked past he stuck his foot out. The bully remembered it. My son is no longer bullied. 

He told me all about it and _asked_ if he could defend himself. He was also training Kung Fu at the time, and he spoke with his instructor about it as well. 

I went the route of teachers first. But as was said, getting in trouble at school only turns bullies to more covert methods, and I will give the school and his teachers alot of credit for doing what could about it. But it really wasn't until my son started defending himself that it actually stopped altogether.


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## granfire (May 7, 2008)

Cudos to the kid for taking the hit - this time.

This crazy world we live in, things are no longer as they were when we were kids...so you had a fight on the play ground, so what! These days you have to worry about repercussions, either from the other party, possibly involving weapons, or the law.

Couple anecdotes...
can't remember who told me the story of the smallish kid being bullied. he told the teachers etc several times, nothing, until he got cornered in the gym.

See, he was a Black Belt of something or other, and he layed his 3 attackers out flat, breaking one arm in the process. Initially he did get into trouble...but the obvious failure of the teachers proofed he was in the right.

On another note, a Lady I know told me how when she was being picked on by a group of girls she applied her dad's advice: Jump on the biggest one in the group (yeah, the days kids could be kids). She lost big time, got busted up some, but had if not the respect so the reputation of being crazy and not to be messed with.

I guess - and hoping I won't have to deal with this in reality - taking one hit is ok...the second time around there should be the appropriate answer...and should a suspension follow, that would be one I'd celebrate with my kid! he, too is a BB, but a lover, not a fighter...(then again, I mioght be in trouble for beating up neglectful teachers....NOBODY but me gets to whip my child!  )


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## Mr G (May 7, 2008)

I cannot second guess your son's choice to avoid the fight, I wasn't there.  He could foresee both good and bad results from either options, and he choose not to fight.  

Congratulations on having a son who has learned wisdom along with his TKD. 

I need to have a conversation with my kids....


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## dortiz (May 7, 2008)

I still have some concerns here.
Your son knows this kid got in trouble because of him. He got cornered caught etc. Then hit pushed and hit.
First awareness. He needs to know when stuff is going down. Second, I would be worried. If policy over self preservation kicks in when attacked then by gosh at 13 you have created the perfect warrior. Kudos.
My concern is that its sounds good afterwards but truth is he took a beating. He got caught, got scared and got hit. You say, stood there with his hands down. No one in this world is going to punish someone for blocking. 
I would hope that in his TKD training there is some basic self defense, If his TKD school does not offer it then find one that does. 
Next time he needs to push the defenders mass to the left and or right and kick him in the shin. 
Truth be told the principal is probably not a dummy. If he finds the bully in any kind of altercation with him its clearly retrubution and he knows it.


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## shesulsa (May 7, 2008)

Well I think the next step is the most crucial, and I think something the OP will have to decide for himself, his child and his family.

There's no doubt the bully will see your son as the one who gets him in trouble all the time and will likely target him again ... THEN what?  Again - that has to come from you.

*I* hope you encourage your boy to be aware, avoid, block if he has to and defend himself as he has to ... and I would prepare the administration at the school for this possibility.

Keep us posted please.


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## jim777 (May 7, 2008)

I think your son has a great deal of self control, and that is awesome! He sounds like a great young man. I also agree with those who say he should be blocking on the next go round, should that come.

Another thing I wanted to mention here, is just in regards to the nature of bullies. If Oprah has taught us anything  , it's that 95% of the bullies who aren't simply sociopathic pick on kids they assume are weak. I think if a friend of your son discretely passed the word to a friend of the bully that said bully is playing with dynamite in this situation, and the next go round will not end so well for him, the issue might disappear altogether. Bullies don't want to test their mettle; they don't like losses on their records (as it were). They certainly don't want to pick on kids they know can lay them out. It might 

Just a thought...


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## jim777 (May 7, 2008)

duplicate post, sorry!


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## Bigshadow (May 7, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> but the boy showed restraint and took the hits.



Yes, he showed discipline and restraint.  But that discipline and restraint is best represented when he doesn't attack someone because they were talking smack.  IMO, it is different when it comes to self defense.  IMO, in those moments, the discipline and restraint is defending one's self and stopping at the appropriate time and be willing to dole out more should the attack begin again.



MA-Caver said:


> Think about this for a moment. He's a red belt in TKD... he's most likely strong enough and fit enough to take hits from someone who isn't... only the bully didn't know it. Sort of compare it to a wolf biting on a wool covered sheepdog. Just too stupid to realize what might be hiding under that "sheep's clothing."



IMO, while that sounds noble, is that truly the lesson we want to teach our kids?  What is the real lesson there.  Just because the kid has the capacity to inflict major damage doesn't mean he should just take the hit, just because it wasn't lethal.  To me it just means, he doesn't give the bully everything he has.  It isn't a boolean situation.  There is an escalation of force (that is restraint and discipline) in situations like that.  Yes, people should be benevolent and humble, but when faced with violence, kids have every right to protect themselves as adults.  

Lastly, it is the goal or intent that defines a violent act as moral or not.  The bully's intent was immoral and if the kid had defended himself, his actions would have been moral.  If the kid had decided to "teach" the bully a lesson, then it would have been immoral.  The line that separates moral and immoral in these situations is where it takes discipline and restraint to not cross.


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## tellner (May 7, 2008)

Kacey, I don't know that I'd even recommend blocking. It only delays defeat, and an ineffective, half-hearted defense is worse than nothing in the psychological part of the fight. Besides, the school administrators won't treat him any better. He still fought. And he used deadly martial arts techniques. 

Walk or talk, run or gun. There aren't any other realistic choices when he's surrounded and there is nobody to help. And by gun I mean "do whatever it takes to be able to walk away safely", not "shoot them". I really wish I didn't need to make that last point clear. 

Sooner or later one of a few things will happen. His tormentors will find a different target. They will leave the school. He will leave the school. They will provoke him in such a way as to get him into trouble. Or they will beat the bright green hell out of him. The first two are nice in a fantasy world. The third is not a solution. The fourth is entirely possible. The fifth is more likely. If it comes to that he has to be able to do what it takes to avoid injury and to do it decisively. 

At that point there needs to be a paper trail. There need to be records. His family's lawyer must be able to use phrases like "due care and diligence", "knew or should have known", "previously made aware on several occasions" and "liability for damages caused by negligence". The suggestions here and in the related thread about putting the school administration on notice are good ones. But they will not stop the attacks. They will only delay them.


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## neoinarien (May 7, 2008)

Not sure if someone said this already, but two points.

1. If my son did that and got suspended, I would treat him on his suspension day to movie, etc, because he didn't do anything wrong and he needs to know that it is the school that is wrong.

2. Has there been any litigation/lawsuits either regionally or nationally about the zero tolerance policy? I feel like it's a tinder box just waiting to be lit otherwise.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 7, 2008)

From my days in school if you let someone bully you word will get around and you will be bullied by others. I recall teachers egging on fights and watching the fight happen. If you stand up to a bully and loose you will be seen to have heart and get respect. But I grew up in a different area than you so your miles will vary.


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## Kacey (May 7, 2008)

tellner said:


> Kacey, I don't know that I'd even recommend blocking. It only delays defeat, and an ineffective, half-hearted defense is worse than nothing in the psychological part of the fight. Besides, the school administrators won't treat him any better. He still fought. And he used deadly martial arts techniques.



You might not recommend it - but I have students who have done so successfully.  When it was proven (by the school's own records) that attacks had occurred before, and the school had not prevented further bullying, the students in question were cleared.  Several of the fights were interrupted by staff or other students while my students were still blocking; there were witnesses to the fact that they _only_ blocked, never attacked, and there was no negative outcome for them. 

For the one student who was forced to escalate to counter attacks (the other boy attempted to put a pencil through his eye), he was able to prove that he attempted first only to prevent injury to himself - I intensely dislike the need to have cameras in schools, but in this particular instance, it supported my student's statement that he punched the other student in the stomach because after blocking several exchanges, the other student escalated.  The camera also showed that, as soon as my student was no longer being attacked, he left - he did not batter the other student.

The key is, I think, to teach students to _think_, to _evaluate_ a situation, and to avoid confrontation whenever such avoidance is feasible.  There is no one "right" answer because every situation is different, as is each student's training, personality, tolerance, etc.


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## MBuzzy (May 7, 2008)

dortiz said:


> My concern is that its sounds good afterwards but truth is he took a beating. He got caught, got scared and got hit. You say, stood there with his hands down. No one in this world is going to punish someone for blocking.
> ...
> Truth be told the principal is probably not a dummy. If he finds the bully in any kind of altercation with him its clearly retrubution and he knows it.


 
It is TRULY unfortunate, but I don't believe that this is true anymore.  The rules that have been put into place no longer allow for common sense.  It is very possible that both students would be punished.  Now, I don't buy the whole "your permanent record" crap.  No one will really ever look at this imaginary file.  Colleges look at grades and involvement, that's about it.  UNTIL the kid goes on a shooting spree, then everything will come to light.  And unfortunately, a lot of the kids that do go on shooting sprees start as the kid that got beat up or picked on a lot.  

Now, I don't agree with the rules...the zero tolerance policies, expelled for bringing aspirin, teachers can't punish students, etc etc etc...BUT, I do see why they are there and where they came from.  I mean, we sit here and talk about how stupid they are and how the world is losing common sense, but I look at it from a different perspective.  The people who made these rules, like the principal in question, were not idiots.  They wanted the best for the kids and the school as much as anyone else.  NO ONE wakes up in the morning and says "I'm going to make a really stupid decision today."  But they happen, because they are forced into the situation.  Dumb rules like that happen over time, after many iterations....or a knee jerk after a MAJOR incident.  Either way, they are done to protect someone, be it the kids or the administrators; and I firmly believe that both groups need and deserve protection.

Unfortunately, I have been in situations where I have made a rule or stupid policy and implemented it on my people.  While I saying it or writing it, the whole time I am thinking to myself how incredibly stupid it is....and how sad it is that it had to come to this...to the point where I had no other choice.  And to the point where myself and my senior NCOs have come to an agreement on this anti common sense rule.  But I can feel for the people that make them.

So back to topic....the zero tolerance policy was created for a reason...liability.  It is stupid and I don't agree with it, but its there for a reason.  It is very easy in situations like this for a block to turn into a hit and then the stories get changed...next thing you know the kid blocking is being expelled for hitting the other kid, who started it.  I know that's an extreme example....but not blocking, not fighting back is the only way to BE SURE that the victim was not the agressor is it was one-sided.  In a way, I understand the policy....and in a way, I can see where a child's martial arts training could count AGAINST them if things got out of hand.  
As Tellner said, it all comes down to what the lawyers can say and unfortunately, and so so sadly...those are the terms that you have to think of.  It is cold and hard to think about it this way, but the question that you have to ask at some point is "What if MY KID is the one that goes to school and starts shooting."  Because no one thinks their kid is the one that's going to do it....but they still do.

It is a sad state of affairs, but honestly, we have made it this way.


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## tellner (May 7, 2008)

It's all percentages. If you really think the kid can block well enough, long enough so that he can stop them until they get tired of hitting him or someone comes and intervenes it might work. Otherwise it won't do anything in the long run. I'm pretty good at blocking and wouldn't fancy my chances. 

i've heard of jump-spinning back kicks working in real life. It wouldn't be a betting man's choice.

As for proving they were the ones? That's why a paper trail is important. If it's in place then there's room for "reasonable force". If it isn't there isn't. If suspensions haven't stopped the problem the chance that another one will deter is very very slim.

The question is how much danger the young man really believes he's in. A lesser response will not do if the risk of real injury is significant. If it's not, then more restraint is a good thing.

But he has to be prepared to escalate if walking, talking, running and blocking do not work.


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## MBuzzy (May 7, 2008)

Kacey said:


> You might not recommend it - but I have students who have done so successfully. When it was proven (by the school's own records) that attacks had occurred before, and the school had not prevented further bullying, the students in question were cleared. Several of the fights were interrupted by staff or other students while my students were still blocking; there were witnesses to the fact that they _only_ blocked, never attacked, and there was no negative outcome for them.
> 
> For the one student who was forced to escalate to counter attacks (the other boy attempted to put a pencil through his eye), he was able to prove that he attempted first only to prevent injury to himself - I intensely dislike the need to have cameras in schools, but in this particular instance, it supported my student's statement that he punched the other student in the stomach because after blocking several exchanges, the other student escalated. The camera also showed that, as soon as my student was no longer being attacked, he left - he did not batter the other student.
> 
> The key is, I think, to teach students to _think_, to _evaluate_ a situation, and to avoid confrontation whenever such avoidance is feasible. There is no one "right" answer because every situation is different, as is each student's training, personality, tolerance, etc.


 
Kacey, it is refreshing that common sense still can rule in schools....and I'm glad that so many martial arts trained students are not only skilled enough, but most importantly, mature enough to handle these situations in the right way.  I know many grown adults that would snap and beat their aggressor to a pulp.


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## dortiz (May 8, 2008)

So.... here is where I am confused. The son is being stoic and saving himself from zero tolerance. The other kid got caught in a fight before (the son told on him). Once again got caught (hitting son )and since it was not mentioned I bet is still there.
I am going to stick with a limited self defense that keeps the bully off you. Hopefully you dont get caught but if you do it will probably end up like the bullies first fight.


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## FieldDiscipline (May 8, 2008)

tellner said:


> It's all percentages. If you really think the kid can block well enough, long enough so that he can stop them until they get tired of hitting him or someone comes and intervenes it might work. Otherwise it won't do anything in the long run. I'm pretty good at blocking and wouldn't fancy my chances.
> 
> i've heard of jump-spinning back kicks working in real life. It wouldn't be a betting man's choice.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of the above.


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## donna (May 8, 2008)

The school my children attend used to be so usless at dealing with bullying, that I had to withdraw one of my sons and homeschool him till we found a position at the local University campus. They accepted him into their adult education class to do the remainder of his high school education.
The situation is radically different at the school now, (ten years later). There are cameras everywhere,and permanent security guards on patrol all the time.
They are managing it with an iron fist, but the school is now more like a prison than a school, right down to the rolls of barbed wire on the perimiter fence!


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## tellner (May 8, 2008)

donna said:


> The situation is radically different at the school now, (ten years later). There are cameras everywhere,and permanent security guards on patrol all the time.
> They are managing it with an iron fist, but the school is now more like a prison than a school, right down to the rolls of barbed wire on the perimiter fence!



You have to wonder what sort of citizenship the government believes it is preparing the students for with early training like that. It probably doesn't make anyone any safer. But it sure does teach them to keep their heads down, their mouths shut and to shuffle along on the coffle like good prisoners.


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## Archangel M (May 8, 2008)

Id tell my kid to defend himself and policy be damned. If my kid got suspended for a true self-defense situation Id give the school hell and then Id take my kid to the movies.


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## Deaf Smith (May 8, 2008)

dleeret said:


> Last Friday, my 13 year old 7th grade son was bullied at school. Several weeks ago he stumbled upon a fist fight in the boys bathroom and reported it to a teacher. Both boys were suspended. On Friday one of the boys that was suspended cornered my son after class and shoved him into the wall - twice - then punched him in the stomach. My son is a red belt and has been in taekwondo for four years. He can break number 2 pine boards with a variety of kicks, stikes and punches. The bully is only about 10 pounds heavier and an inch taller than my son. BUT instead of defending himself and getting suspended, he stood with his arm down and took the hits. The bully was suspended again and my son was praised by the Dean of Schools for his self control. Most kids don't know he's in TKD - incuding the bully - and the Dean did not know, either (she does now).
> 
> I'm certain my son could do all sorts of damage to this kid. He told me it took alot of inner strength to not take the kid out. But even if he simply blocks the attack he will be suspended and it will go on his permanent record. I'm looking for suggestions in case this happens again.


 
You can teach your son how to block with his elbows. Boxers do it alot and I assure you it's very economical as for force and the bully can break his hand real easy on your son's elbow I doubt he would be suspended for just covering up.

As for the school policies, today they are just so stupid. I had fist fights in high school. One kid even tried to use a board on me. I jumped him and plastered him while a teacher looked on! Didn't even get a talking to.

But today, well it's a different. Heck even the electrician shop teacher traded guns with me in the high school parking lot! Try that today!

Deaf


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## Brad Dunne (May 8, 2008)

Several years ago, my son came home from school with the complaint of being bullied. Now we had originally gone thru the PC steps on, if this should happen's, what to do. First, inform your teacher. He said he did so. OK, first step taken. Two days later, it happened again. Now he went to the second step, informing the next higher up in the teacher ranks. He did so. Next day, again it happened. This time I told him to defend himself. Next day, I get a call at work from the principle. Your son is being suspended for fighting and it may lead to an expulsion. I said I'll be right down and he informed me that there was no need for me to come. I came anyway and walked straight into his office. He insisted there was no need for me being there and I responded, if you don't want to go to jail, then you better review your situation. Go to jail, are you crazy? he said! I repeated the threat and even asked him to call the police. He said, what are you attempting to prove? I'm not attempting to prove anything, but I am willing to let a court decide the matter. What matter he asked? The matter of child endangerment I replied. How can you justify that? Well for starters, his homeroom teacher was notified and did nothing. His guidance teacher was then notified and again she did nothing. Two of your teachers were notified that physical violence was ongoing and did nothing. I can make a case for child endangerment, if you want to push the issue. Needless to say, the issue was resolved without further conflict and nothing went on my sons record. There's a lot more at stake for someone being bullied than just the threat of a school record. Letting yourself be hit, could result in serious injury. It most likely would not happen, but I wouldn't want my child to become the fluke statistic. The mental side also takes a hit and for some, they may have a very difficult time dealing with the aspect of being a self imposed victim. 

We live in very difficult times. Schools with armed guards, metal detectors, cameras and a team of lawyers to stave off litigations. Gang crap and moral decay being almost glorified on the tube and watching the court system being played with merry-go-round music. The country is in the toilet and the politicans hands are on the flusher lever. :toilclaw:


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## Andy Moynihan (May 8, 2008)

All be over soon, don't worry.


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## dleeret (May 9, 2008)

> You have to make this decision with your family, decide on how far you'll go to defend your children and figure what's right for them.




I told my son that he can use the minimum force necessary to defend himself in the future.  I also reiterated that I will support him 100% if this is the case.  I also let him know that beating the crud out of someone or physical harm such as broken bones are not considered minimum force and that if HE throws the first punch, the school's response will be the least of his worries.  I also told him I was very proud of his response.

Thanks for everyone's replies.  I'm sure my family will not be the only one that finds this information helpful.


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## terryl965 (May 9, 2008)

dleeret said:


> You have to make this decision with your family, decide on how far you'll go to defend your children and figure what's right for them.
> 
> I told my son that he can use the minimum force necessary to defend himself in the future. I also reiterated that I will support him 100% if this is the case. I also let him know that beating the crud out of someone or physical harm such as broken bones are not considered minimum force and that if HE throws the first punch, the school's response will be the least of his worries. I also told him I was very proud of his response.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's replies. I'm sure my family will not be the only one that finds this information helpful.


 
Good for you and I hope everything works out for the best.


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## dleeret (May 9, 2008)

dortiz said:


> I still have some concerns here.
> Your son knows this kid got in trouble because of him. He got cornered caught etc. Then hit pushed and hit.
> First awareness. He needs to know when stuff is going down. Second, I would be worried. If policy over self preservation kicks in when attacked then by gosh at 13 you have created the perfect warrior. Kudos.
> My concern is that its sounds good afterwards but truth is he took a beating. He got caught, got scared and got hit. You say, stood there with his hands down. No one in this world is going to punish someone for blocking.
> ...


 
Our school is very self defense oriented.  And I'm certain my son knows how to use most of the techniques effectively.  He was indeed surprised by the first push.  It came right after the bell rang when all the kids were leaving the classroom.  But he saw the second push coming and saw the subsequent punch coming.  The bully was in way too close and my son told me he "almost" hit the kid with a pushing palm to the jaw.  I told him I'm glad he didn't use that strike because it probably would have broken the kids jaw.  I suggested that next time he simply strike the kid in the nose.  Lots of blood any maybe a broken nose but not nearly as serious as a broken jaw.  I'm hoping there is no next time.  School ends in 2 weeks and the bully and another problem child are being moved to a different section of the school (the school is broken into "pods" and you only have classes and lunch with others in your pod).  These two boys have had trouble with several other students.


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## shesulsa (May 9, 2008)

dleeret said:


> I told my son that he can use the minimum force necessary to defend himself in the future.  I also reiterated that I will support him 100% if this is the case.  I also let him know that beating the crud out of someone or physical harm such as broken bones are not considered minimum force and that if HE throws the first punch, the school's response will be the least of his worries.  I also told him I was very proud of his response.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's replies.  I'm sure my family will not be the only one that finds this information helpful.


Good for you. And Good for him.  Keep us posted if there is another incident as I think this issue touches all of us.

:asian:


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## Jade Tigress (May 10, 2008)

dleeret said:


> I told my son that he can use the minimum force necessary to defend himself in the future.  I also reiterated that I will support him 100% if this is the case.  I also let him know that beating the crud out of someone or physical harm such as broken bones are not considered minimum force and that if HE throws the first punch, the school's response will be the least of his worries.  I also told him I was very proud of his response.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's replies.  I'm sure my family will not be the only one that finds this information helpful.



Perfect response IMO. :asian:

As Shesula said, please keep us posted if there are further developments. This is obviously a subject that touches many people.


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## dleeret (May 12, 2008)

Here's an update on the situation.  The bully has been telling students that he and two other boys are going to jump my son.  One-on-one is considered a fair fight.  Three-on-one and he has no chance.  So I called the Dean of Students and left a message requesting an emergency meeting tomorrow.  I will make it very clear that these threats are out there and that they have a responsibility to make sure he is not harmed.  If he is, the police will be called and a lawsuit will be filed against the district.  It has now gone too far.  Let me know what else you think I should do.


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## shesulsa (May 12, 2008)

dleeret said:


> Here's an update on the situation.  The bully has been telling students that he and two other boys are going to jump my son.  One-on-one is considered a fair fight.  Three-on-one and he has no chance.  So I called the Dean of Students and left a message requesting an emergency meeting tomorrow.  I will make it very clear that these threats are out there and that they have a responsibility to make sure he is not harmed.  If he is, the police will be called and a lawsuit will be filed against the district.  It has now gone too far.  Let me know what else you think I should do.


I think this is an excellent pre-emptive action.  _**If this were my son**_ I would also notify the principal that your son will defend himself as necessary and that you expect for him to treated fairly.

But again - THIS IS WHAT I WOULD DO. I would practice multiple-attacker approaches with him and encourage him to use the buddy system as much as possible, be smart about the paths he walks at school.

I would also take him to the office to file a report there.  Where did you and/or he get this information? He needs to be forthwith about this and name names as to who told him this or how he found out.


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## shesulsa (May 12, 2008)

I should also say I am prepared to take legal action as necessary if this problem arises for my youngest.  Remember to do what's right FOR YOU and ... perhaps ... speak to an attorney.


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## dleeret (May 12, 2008)

I was reading through his text messages (yes I do this and have no moral issues with it what so ever) and saw a message from a friend of his saying that he heard Mike and friends (Mike is not his real name) were going to jump my son.  After a few back and forths between my son and his friend I was able to get all three names.  I will be showing this to the Dean of Students tomorrow.  

Would you suggest calling the parents of the three boys letting them know that charges will be filed if they attack my son?


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## tellner (May 12, 2008)

Threatening someone with violence is itself a crime. 
A threat of violence by several people is the threat of deadly force.
Planning to commit a violent crime is conspiracy which is itself a crime.

You might want to consider talking to the police and getting a report on file. It won't prevent an attack, but it will leave a paper trail. If they don't come after him nobody has been hurt. If they do, your son is in real danger of being seriously hurt, crippled or killed and will need that paper trail when he has to defend himself against the threat of a potentially deadly assault.


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## shesulsa (May 12, 2008)

tellner said:


> Threatening someone with violence is itself a crime.
> A threat of violence by several people is the threat of deadly force.
> Planning to commit a violent crime is conspiracy which is itself a crime.
> 
> You might want to consider talking to the police and getting a report on file. It won't prevent an attack, but it will leave a paper trail. If they don't come after him nobody has been hurt. If they do, your son is in real danger of being seriously hurt, crippled or killed and will need that paper trail when he has to defend himself against the threat of a potentially deadly assault.


ABSOLUTELY!


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## Kacey (May 12, 2008)

dleeret said:


> I was reading through his text messages (yes I do this and have no moral issues with it what so ever) and saw a message from a friend of his saying that he heard Mike and friends (Mike is not his real name) were going to jump my son.  After a few back and forths between my son and his friend I was able to get all three names.  I will be showing this to the Dean of Students tomorrow.



Good!  Please let us know how it goes.  You need to call the police as well; while I know from the school where I teach that parents frequently contact the school about such things, the school has limited (if any) jurisdiction over events that occur off school property.



dleeret said:


> Would you suggest calling the parents of the three boys letting them know that charges will be filed if they attack my son?


Honestly, I would let the police take care of it.  While it might seem that warning them would be the polite thing to do, it would give them time to justify their sons' actions (how, I'm not sure... but I've seen it done too many times) and also to attempt to create events that caused their sons to feel threatened to the point that they felt they needed to attack your son in a preemptive fashion.  Remember that if their sons feel that this is an appropriate action, then at some point they must have either learned this at home, or learned it would be condoned.  Either way, you're not likely to get the response you would hope for.


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## MBuzzy (May 12, 2008)

dleeret said:


> Would you suggest calling the parents of the three boys letting them know that charges will be filed if they attack my son?


 
I'd be careful with this.  If you're going to do it, be as nonconfrontational and amiable as possible.  In fact, I'm not sure that I'd threaten any kind of action at this point, maybe just warn them as neutrally as possible that this is going on and that they may want to deal with it.


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## jks9199 (May 12, 2008)

tellner said:


> Threatening someone with violence is itself a crime.
> A threat of violence by several people is the threat of deadly force.
> Planning to commit a violent crime is conspiracy which is itself a crime.
> 
> You might want to consider talking to the police and getting a report on file. It won't prevent an attack, but it will leave a paper trail. If they don't come after him nobody has been hurt. If they do, your son is in real danger of being seriously hurt, crippled or killed and will need that paper trail when he has to defend himself against the threat of a potentially deadly assault.


I'd move that from "may want to" to "ought to."

File the police report.  And tell the school you've done so.  They won't want you to, and they'll try to talk you out of it, but you're looking at a history of violence against your son, and now they're ganging up on him.  It's even possible, depending on where you live (and suburbia is DEFINITELY included in this, not just the inner city) that gang activity is involved.  We *do *see gangs actively recruiting in elementary and junior high schools in my area.


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## tellner (May 12, 2008)

I have to, very reluctantly, add something else.

If there are several attackers he's in a situation where he could be killed. You need to impress on him just how seriously he should take that. From the moment it starts all the TKD ideals of sportsmanship and fair play have to go right out the window. They will be inappropriate and can get him very badly hurt. Whatever he has to do to stop them and get away safely is permissible. 

If that means seriously hurting them to the point where they cannot get up again that is what he has to do. The blocking strategy mentioned earlier is appropriate for one attacker. When there are several it is suicidal. He has to be prepared to use his strongest, most reliable most damaging techniques in a situation like that. G-d willing he will not have to use them. He has to be prepared to and to follow through until he can withdraw without being followed and dragged down from behind.


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## IcemanSK (May 12, 2008)

Kacey said:


> *Honestly, I would let the police take care of it. While it might seem that warning them would be the polite thing to do, it would give them time to justify their sons' actions (how, I'm not sure... but I've seen it done too many times) and also to attempt to create events that caused their sons to feel threatened to the point that they felt they needed to attack your son in a preemptive fashion. Remember that if their sons feel that this is an appropriate action, then at some point they must have either learned this at home, or learned it would be condoned. Either way, you're not likely to get the response you would hope for*.


 
I agree with Kacey on this. The police should handle the parents.

It would be easy to assume that the parents of these other kids are either just like you & would want to nip this in the bud, or that they are the opposite & would condone the beating of your son by their kid. The reality will probably be somewhere in between, honestly. But like you are with your son, they will probably "circle the wagons" around their kid & be defensive. There is also an assumption that these other kids are as "into" thumping on your boy as the one who got kicked out is. Realistically, the boys that didn't get in trouble may think twice about getting into trouble for what the main player wants to do. Even if they want to jump on your boy, the police are the correct authority to handle it. My jr. high days are 25+ years ago, but even then, a parent calling made ya look like a whimp. The police calling got everyone's attention. 

With the school & police, be "mamma bear." That's all the noise you need to make. IMO


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## Hawke (May 12, 2008)

This is from my personal experience:

I got in a fight in jr. high with a racist bully during lunch time (I was in 8th grade and he was in 9th).  

The teacher that broke the fight up sent me to the councilor's office while the bully got to go to class.  Keep in mind I was defending myself and the other kid was a lot taller than me.

The school councilor knows I'm a good student and wanted to know where the other kid was.  She had me bring the bully to her and she gave him a huge long lecture.  We were both dismissed.

From that day on that bully stayed far from me.  He knew I actually hit back.


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## Hawke (May 12, 2008)

This is an advice I got from a forum member who used to work in the school administration.

She said that a principal is usually concerned with these words

"Lawsuit" or "My attorney will contact you shortly."

Will all principals be concerned with those words?  Probably not.  But if the school will not do something they will get an incentive for action soon.


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## jim777 (May 13, 2008)

tellner said:


> I have to, very reluctantly, add something else.
> 
> If there are several attackers he's in a situation where he could be killed. You need to impress on him just how seriously he should take that. From the moment it starts all the TKD ideals of sportsmanship and fair play have to go right out the window. They will be inappropriate and can get him very badly hurt. Whatever he has to do to stop them and get away safely is permissible.
> 
> If that means seriously hurting them to the point where they cannot get up again that is what he has to do. The blocking strategy mentioned earlier is appropriate for one attacker. When there are several it is suicidal. He has to be prepared to use his strongest, most reliable most damaging techniques in a situation like that. G-d willing he will not have to use them. He has to be prepared to and to follow through until he can withdraw without being followed and dragged down from behind.


 
Couldn't agree more with this. Once it's not one on one, then the 'blocking only' strategy has to go out the window. If they jump him like that, they mean to do him very serious injury, as serious as they can deliver. Your son needs to know he has the freedom (and your blessing) to defend himself in any way he sees fit, without any constraint. I think you need to let him know before hand that if it comes down to it, his safety is absolutely more important that possibly getting suspended or even kicked out of the school for fighting. There are other schools, but only one of him.

Sorry you're having to go through this.


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## tellner (May 13, 2008)

dleeret said:


> School ends in 2 weeks and the bully and another problem child are being moved to a different section of the school (the school is broken into "pods" and you only have classes and lunch with others in your pod).  These two boys have had trouble with several other students.



This is very good to hear. There's a chance that the bullies will have other concerns and look for targets whom they see every day. Out of sight, out of mind works sometimes. 

If your son can arrange to be doing something somewhere else on the last day of school - known in my secondary school days as Payback Day - it might not be a bad thing. Otherwise I hope he keeps his powder dry, his eyes peeled, hopes for the best and prepares for the worst. 

And tell him to remember "Always eat your enemies in secret." Damn. Wrong proverb. That was Elder Bullfrog's advice to Young Bullfrog


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## Empty Hands (May 13, 2008)

tellner said:


> I have to, very reluctantly, add something else.



Christ, this is absurd.  Not your advice here Tellner, which is of course true, but the situation.  This poor kid knows that three kids are going to jump him, and at the very least going to hurt him bad.  He has to just sit there waiting for the hammer to fall, and no one seems to be able to do anything.  If the parent were to take any proactive efforts to head this situation off, _they _would be the ones being dragged off in cuffs.  Meanwhile, _when _these scum finally get around to beating this kid, they will probably only get a slap on the wrist.

It shouldn't have to be like this.  Someone should be able to take action to protect their own without automatically becoming the criminal.


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## dleeret (May 13, 2008)

OK - here's a followup on what happened today.  I met with the Dean of Students who informed me that these three kids have a long history and are well known to teachers and staff to be trouble.  They took the threat seriously and even called in the police.  The officer asked why we had not pressed charges after the first assault and suggested we seriously consider it.  All three boys were called from class after we left and told by the school and the police officer that they had heard from several students that they were threatening my son.  They are not saying who they heard it from and the boys don't even know for sure that my son knows of the threat.  The school explained what will happen from a school standpoint if they attack him and the police officer let them know that they will be arrested and put on trial and sent to a juvenile detention facility if found guilty.  I hope that scares them enough that is stops.  The officer said that usually works.   He also may go the the home of the kid that punched him last week and talk to them about what's been happening.  I sure hope we did the right thing...


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## IcemanSK (May 13, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Christ, this is absurd. Not your advice here Tellner, which is of course true, but the situation. This poor kid *knows* that three kids are going to jump him, and at the very least going to hurt him bad. He has to just sit there waiting for the hammer to fall, and no one seems to be able to do anything. If the parent were to take any proactive efforts to head this situation off, _they _would be the ones being dragged off in cuffs. Meanwhile, _when _these scum finally get around to beating this kid, they will probably only get a slap on the wrist.
> 
> It shouldn't have to be like this. Someone should be able to take action to protect their own without automatically becoming the criminal.


 
Actually, the child doesn't *know* this for sure. But he *hears* & suspects that this will happen. Most stress in life is based on what we *fear* & what we *believe* might happen to us. What we believe & fear might happen to us is often worse than things that *actually* happen. Carrying that type of stress is hard enough on adults. It really is terrible as a 13 year old. The OP is doing what is necessary as to help her son. I don't mean to add the stress that this family is going thru: just to point out the awful nature of stress itself.

It really does sound like they are doing what is necessary to mitigate the stressors by talking with the school authorities about it. And one thing is for sure, they have a whole bunch of folks on this board that is in their corner!


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## IcemanSK (May 13, 2008)

dleeret said:


> OK - here's a followup on what happened today. I met with the Dean of Students who informed me that these three kids have a long history and are well known to teachers and staff to be trouble. They took the threat seriously and even called in the police. The officer asked why we had not pressed charges after the first assault and suggested we seriously consider it. All three boys were called from class after we left and told by the school and the police officer that they had heard from several students that they were threatening my son. They are not saying who they heard it from and the boys don't even know for sure that my son knows of the threat. The school explained what will happen from a school standpoint if they attack him and the police officer let them know that they will be arrested and put on trial and sent to a juvenile detention facility if found guilty. I hope that scares them enough that is stops. The officer said that usually works. He also may go the the home of the kid that punched him last week and talk to them about what's been happening. I sure hope we did the right thing...


 

Excellent! I think you did exactly the right thing!


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## terryl965 (May 13, 2008)

dleeret said:


> OK - here's a followup on what happened today. I met with the Dean of Students who informed me that these three kids have a long history and are well known to teachers and staff to be trouble. They took the threat seriously and even called in the police. The officer asked why we had not pressed charges after the first assault and suggested we seriously consider it. All three boys were called from class after we left and told by the school and the police officer that they had heard from several students that they were threatening my son. They are not saying who they heard it from and the boys don't even know for sure that my son knows of the threat. The school explained what will happen from a school standpoint if they attack him and the police officer let them know that they will be arrested and put on trial and sent to a juvenile detention facility if found guilty. I hope that scares them enough that is stops. The officer said that usually works. He also may go the the home of the kid that punched him last week and talk to them about what's been happening. I sure hope we did the right thing...


 
Hopefully everything will work out, in the end.


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## tellner (May 13, 2008)

Thanks for the update dleeret. It looks like the police and the school administration are reading from the right page this time. Good luck with the next few weeks. I'll bet that your son is going to be a serious MMA - Motivated Martial Artist!


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## Kacey (May 13, 2008)

dleeret said:


> OK - here's a followup on what happened today.  I met with the Dean of Students who informed me that these three kids have a long history and are well known to teachers and staff to be trouble.  They took the threat seriously and even called in the police.  The officer asked why we had not pressed charges after the first assault and suggested we seriously consider it.  All three boys were called from class after we left and told by the school and the police officer that they had heard from several students that they were threatening my son.  They are not saying who they heard it from and the boys don't even know for sure that my son knows of the threat.  The school explained what will happen from a school standpoint if they attack him and the police officer let them know that they will be arrested and put on trial and sent to a juvenile detention facility if found guilty.  I hope that scares them enough that is stops.  The officer said that usually works.   He also may go the the home of the kid that punched him last week and talk to them about what's been happening.  I sure hope we did the right thing...


You did _exactly_ the right thing.  Do let us know how things pan out after school lets out; hopefully, nothing of consequence will happen.


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## MBuzzy (May 13, 2008)

dleeret said:


> OK - here's a followup on what happened today. I met with the Dean of Students who informed me that these three kids have a long history and are well known to teachers and staff to be trouble. They took the threat seriously and even called in the police. The officer asked why we had not pressed charges after the first assault and suggested we seriously consider it. All three boys were called from class after we left and told by the school and the police officer that they had heard from several students that they were threatening my son. They are not saying who they heard it from and the boys don't even know for sure that my son knows of the threat. The school explained what will happen from a school standpoint if they attack him and the police officer let them know that they will be arrested and put on trial and sent to a juvenile detention facility if found guilty. I hope that scares them enough that is stops. The officer said that usually works. He also may go the the home of the kid that punched him last week and talk to them about what's been happening. I sure hope we did the right thing...


 
Excellent!  I'm glad everything worked out!  I think that you did exactly the right thing.  Score one for good people!  Negative 5 for morons and bullies.


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## Brad Dunne (May 13, 2008)

OK, I'm going to be the bearer of bad mojo here. The school admits to these kids having a history of trouble and "repeat" and their still in the damn school and still causing trouble. The only thing your getting is lip service from the school. As far as the police go, do yourself a BIG FAVOR and file charges NOW! Only then can the police actually do something besides talking (again, lip service). These kids as stated, have history and nothing has happened to them, so what do they have to fear from the school officials? I'd be willing to place a wager, that the parents of these kids aren't worth the time of day to talk to, or they have just lost all control. Either way, it's not a venue to remove the problem, because it's still ongoing. The only person who has any leverage to do anything, is YOU! There's an old saying, "Could Have, Would Have, Should Have", If only I knew then, what I know now...................


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## jim777 (May 14, 2008)

dleeret said:


> OK - here's a followup on what happened today. I met with the Dean of Students who informed me that these three kids have a long history and are well known to teachers and staff to be trouble. They took the threat seriously and even called in the police. The officer asked why we had not pressed charges after the first assault and suggested we seriously consider it. All three boys were called from class after we left and told by the school and the police officer that they had heard from several students that they were threatening my son. They are not saying who they heard it from and the boys don't even know for sure that my son knows of the threat. The school explained what will happen from a school standpoint if they attack him and the police officer let them know that they will be arrested and put on trial and sent to a juvenile detention facility if found guilty. I hope that scares them enough that is stops. The officer said that usually works. He also may go the the home of the kid that punched him last week and talk to them about what's been happening. I sure hope we did the right thing...


 
Excellent news! I think you did the right thing, absolutely.


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## dleeret (May 28, 2008)

Final Update:

Schools out for the summer and there were no further incidents.  The three problem kids will be seperated into different "pods" next year and none will be in my son's pod so they will have no contact.  So for now, there is no longer a threat.  When school begins again in August I hope it continues to a non-threat but we will be careful not to let our guard down.  Thanks to all that contributed to this post.


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## Windsinger (Jun 2, 2008)

I've only read a few of the comments on here, but I'm going to throw in my two-bits, if you all don't mind. 

I was picked on almost constantly from grade one straight through to my grad year. I've always been somewhat of a pacifist, and never fought back in any way. Which, I do believe, is the main reason it went on as long as it did.

I got my son involved in martial arts for three reasons: physical fitness, confidence, and the ability to defend himself if (gods forbid) he ever needs to. My son and I have an understanding. If he ever gets into a fight that he starts, I will agree to whatever punishment the school deems appropriate. However, if he gets into a fight because he has no other choice and is defending himself (or is defending someone who can't defend themselves), I will stand by him 100%.

I've also tried to instill my personal philosophy in him: 9 times out of 10, there is a way out that does not result in violence. Naive? Maybe. But I firmly believe that is true. (Then again, I've never been in a real fight, so what do I know... )

All that said, I agree with the posts I've read: kudos to your son! In this day and age, it takes a lot of courage to do what he did.


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