# GPS... is it worth it?



## Kacey (Apr 17, 2007)

I'm considering buying a GPS unit, as I'll be doing some road trips this summer - are they worth it?  Or should I just stick with maps?  If they are worth it, which one would you get, and why?  And are there any associated fees?  Is there a subscription fee for the connection to the navigation system?  Any information would be greatly appreciated.


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## HKphooey (Apr 17, 2007)

I have a Street Pilot and I love it.  No subscription fees.  There are periodic updates (new roads/listings) you may have to purchase with some units.  My cell phone even has a pay per use function. .  You can get higher priced units that are receiving real time info for traffic alerts.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 17, 2007)

Kacey said:


> I'm considering buying a GPS unit, as I'll be doing some road trips this summer - are they worth it?  Or should I just stick with maps?  If they are worth it, which one would you get, and why?  And are there any associated fees?  Is there a subscription fee for the connection to the navigation system?  Any information would be greatly appreciated.



I am assuming you are talking about GPS with maps.  Yes, they are worth it.  The only fees are for the updated maps that you load from your computer.  You don't have to buy them but it is much like buying a new atlas every year, so you have all the new road changes.

IMO, the best brand of GPS to purchase is Garmin, hands down!  I own a small handheld Garmin GPS I use for hunting, fishing, biking, hiking, etc.  It doesn't have maps.  As for the GPS service, it is free.  Not like satellite radio.


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## HKphooey (Apr 17, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> I am assuming you are talking about GPS with maps. Yes, they are worth it. The only fees are for the updated maps that you load from your computer. You don't have to buy them but it is much like buying a new atlas every year, so you have all the new road changes.
> 
> IMO, the best brand of GPS to purchase is Garmin, hands down! I own a small handheld Garmin GPS I use for hunting, fishing, biking, hiking, etc. It doesn't have maps. As for the GPS service, it is free. Not like satellite radio.


 
Defintley agree with ya on getting a Garmin.


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## terryl965 (Apr 17, 2007)

We have a garman as well and yes it is worth having


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## MetalStorm (Apr 17, 2007)

Been debating about getting one for my car as well, I think they would be great for work when I have to drive to appointments at weird little shops on streets no one has heard of.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 17, 2007)

I'm assuming that when we're speaking of GPS units we're talking about what we call Satellite Navigation (SatNav for short) over here?

It has to be said that I hope that the American kit is superior to what we get as SatNav is a decided figure of fun for how inaccurate and misleading it tends to be.  

Only yesterday, one of my fellow engineers set off to a well known nuclear station to do some work fixing one of their systems.  He duly punched the {wrong :lol:} postcode (zip code) into the SatNav and it merrily lead him off to the wrong part of the country.  

Now admittedly the error was exacerbated because he's relatively new to the country and so didn't pick up that he was going the wrong way but it is illustrative of the point.  Mind you it also proves the strength of the 'garbage in garbage out' rule of thumb .


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## michaeledward (Apr 17, 2007)

They are fancy toys, and prime targets for thieves. I would stick with a good street atlas.

I have a field service position, and I travel extensively. I use Microsoft Streets and Trips on my laptop computer - and in the past have used the DeLorme' Street Atlas. Both software programs have a GPS receiver that can connect to the map. I used to use the GPS functionality with the software, oh maybe 6 years ago. It was a bit difficult to use while driving.

I'm certain the interfaces are better today. But, just having a good street map, and knowing how to use it, is far more flexible, and far less annoying.

I will tell you one story, in favor of a GPS.  A gruop of colleagues were travelling in a remote town, and needed a hospital in a hurry, and the GPS in the rental car was able to provide directions to the nearest hospital. 

But, usually, we use the GPS' for direction to the resturant for dinner. And you can usually get that advice for free, just by asking.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 17, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> They are fancy toys, and prime targets for thieves. I would stick with a good street atlas.



These days, they make portable ones you can keep secure or remove such as the StreetPilot.  GPS devices have dramatically improved in the last 6 to 10 years.

The little Garmin StreetPilot will give you turn by turn directions on screen with voice.  It can be removed and darn near carried in a trouser pocket.  Now I wouldn't want to use a laptop based GPS system.  Too big and bulky.  Having one that connects to my treo 650, sure.  That would work.


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## Carol (Apr 17, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> These days, they make portable ones you can keep secure or remove such as the StreetPilot.  GPS devices have dramatically improved in the last 6 to 10 years.
> 
> The little Garmin StreetPilot will give you turn by turn directions on screen with voice.  It can be removed and darn near carried in a trouser pocket.  Now I wouldn't want to use a laptop based GPS system.  Too big and bulky.  Having one that connects to my treo 650, sure.  That would work.



This is a bluetooth GPS receiver if you already have map software for your Treo.  I'm thinking about buying it for my crackberry. 

http://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Gps...0?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1176845126&sr=1-6


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## michaeledward (Apr 17, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> These days, they make portable ones you can keep secure or remove such as the StreetPilot. GPS devices have dramatically improved in the last 6 to 10 years.
> 
> The little Garmin StreetPilot will give you turn by turn directions on screen with voice. It can be removed and darn near carried in a trouser pocket. Now I wouldn't want to use a laptop based GPS system. Too big and bulky. Having one that connects to my treo 650, sure. That would work.


 
The GPS technology has not changed in the last 10 years. The satellites are exactly the same today as they were then. Decoding the statellite data has not changed either. When I was using Street Atlas with the GPS, it would provide me turn by turn directions as well, and tell me my altitude, speed and direction.

As for the size of the device, that is a matter of choice. Smaller is not necessarily better.

But, they are still targets for thieves. One colleague has had two of her Garmen's stolen out of automobiles ... smashed windows. Another colleague has a passenger lock cylinder that is broken, because someone jacked it in an attempt to get at his GPS - which wasn't in the vehicle, only the GPS bracket was in the car.


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## crushing (Apr 17, 2007)

A co-worker of mine has a NavMan and really likes it.  His eldest son plays hockey all over the state.  He plugs the arena and hotel address in and off he goes.

He showed it off when we went to lunch one day.  He selected Subway from the restaurant choices in the area and it mapped it out for us.  He took a wrong turn on purpose and the thing automatically redid the route based on the wrong turn.  It was really nice.

I wouldn't not buy it out of fear for what someone else may do.  I don't buy one because I'm cheap.


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## Carol (Apr 17, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> The GPS technology has not changed in the last 10 years. The satellites are exactly the same today as they were then. Decoding the statellite data has not changed either. When I was using Street Atlas with the GPS, it would provide me turn by turn directions as well, and tell me my altitude, speed and direction.
> 
> As for the size of the device, that is a matter of choice. Smaller is not necessarily better.
> 
> But, they are still targets for thieves. One colleague has had two of her Garmen's stolen out of automobiles ... smashed windows. Another colleague has a passenger lock cylinder that is broken, because someone jacked it in an attempt to get at his GPS - which wasn't in the vehicle, only the GPS bracket was in the car.




Actually Mike, that is incorrect...GPS technology has changed quit a bit in 10 years.

10 years ago a new type of GPS satellite was addded in to the existing constellation.  17 additional satellites of this sort have been steadily launched since then, with the most recent launch being in late 2006.  The FCC requirement of adding GPS positioning to mobile cell phones for 911 calls is one reason that has fueled the rise of additional birds in the GPS constellation.

More info:

http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/


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## michaeledward (Apr 17, 2007)

Carol, how has this new type of satellite changed the Full Operation Capability described on that web site? In 1995, the system was supposed to be able to provide locations within these tolerances



> The *Standard Positioning Service (SPS)* is a positioning and timing service which will be available to all GPS users on a continuous, worldwide basis with no direct charge. SPS will be provided on the GPS L1 frequency which contains a *coarse acquisition (C/A)* code and a navigation data message. SPS provides a predictable positioning accuracy of 100 meters (95 percent) horizontally and 156 meters (95 percent) vertically and time transfer accuracy to UTC within 340 nanoseconds (95 percent).
> The *Precise Positioning Service (PPS)* is a highly accurate military positioning, velocity and timing service which will be available on a continuous, worldwide basis to users authorized by the U.S. *P(Y) code* capable military user equipment provides a predictable positioning accuracy of at least 22 meters (95 percent) horizontally and 27.7 meters vertically and time transfer accuracy to UTC within 200 nanoseconds (95 percent). PPS will be the data transmitted on the GPS L1 and L2 frequencies.


 
And although the specs only call for 100 meters accuracy (+/-) in 1995, I always found my location far more accurate than that. At what point are we talking about diminishing returns?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 17, 2007)

I worked for a spell modelling user interfaces for software that could be used to pinpoint personnel through their GPS devices...bad guys turn on their GPS, we know where they are, and call in destiny. "Gypsie" was GPSSCI...Global Positioning Systems Satellite Command Intercept.

I'm still too paranoid about big brother watching me to want to get on the grid with one of these things. I'll stick to maps and redlights.

D.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 17, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> The GPS technology has not changed in the last 10 years. The satellites are exactly the same today as they were then. Decoding the statellite data has not changed either. When I was using Street Atlas with the GPS, it would provide me turn by turn directions as well, and tell me my altitude, speed and direction.




What I meant was the receivers have evolved with more conviences and abilities.  In the beginning there were no moving maps or voice.  Just basic navigation information with some way points.  For instance my Garmin etrex has more capability than my father's garmin 90 (?) that he used when flying his airplane.  The consumer equipment has definitely evolved even though the basic communication has not changed.  Although they have more satellites aloft and this may increase accuracy.  Although the military still reserves the right to induce error for security purposes of course.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 17, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I worked for a spell modelling user interfaces for software that could be used to pinpoint personnel through their GPS devices...bad guys turn on their GPS, we know where they are, and call in destiny. "Gypsie" was GPSSCI...Global Positioning Systems Satellite Command Intercept.
> 
> I'm still too paranoid about big brother watching me to want to get on the grid with one of these things. I'll stick to maps and redlights.
> 
> D.



That is always in the back of my mind!  Call me a conspiracy theorist, if you like! 

Just like the GPS 911 locator in the cell phones.


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## Carol (Apr 17, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> Carol, how has this new type of satellite changed the Full Operation Capability described on that web site? In 1995, the system was supposed to be able to provide locations within these tolerances



The differences from what I can tell have to do with accuracy of clocking (which affects sensitivity) and how long the unit can operate with no communication link.  (which affects availability including number of users) and triangulation (which affects how quickly the unit can achieve a lock on the signal).  In addition, civilian units have been updated to more accurately predict where a person is should the GPS signal not be easily triangulated in a module that is both lightweight (both in size and battery life) and inexpensive.




> And although the specs only call for 100 meters accuracy (+/-) in 1995, I always found my location far more accurate than that. At what point are we talking about diminishing returns?



That is a question for someone smarter than I am.


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## crushing (Apr 17, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Actually Mike, that is incorrect...GPS technology has changed quit a bit in 10 years.
> 
> 10 years ago a new type of GPS satellite was addded in to the existing constellation. 17 additional satellites of this sort have been steadily launched since then, with the most recent launch being in late 2006. The FCC requirement of adding GPS positioning to mobile cell phones for 911 calls is one reason that has fueled the rise of additional birds in the GPS constellation.
> 
> ...


 

Add to that the removal of the 'feature' called Selective Availability in 2000 or so, which purposefully degraded the signal for users outside of the US Military.


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## tellner (Apr 17, 2007)

The reason we get better accuracy than mandated by "Selective Availability" is that some bright academics figured out how to undither the signal. They needed more accuracy for their work and came up with the technique.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 17, 2007)

Selective Availability



> In 1998, President Clinton directed that SA should be turned off between 2000 and 2006. Fortunately, it happened early in that range of years. The U.S. military was able to quickly develop and test their ability to selectively block accurate GPS transmissions in areas of conflict or where U.S. security was at risk. When the U.S. Air Force Space Command turned off SA last night, GPS became incredibly accurate for the entire planet.





> Future plans for improving the accuracy of GPS include the launching of eighteen additional satellites that are awaiting launch or are currently in production. Additionally, two new signals will be broadcast from the satellites by 2005 to help bypass any distortion from the ionosphere.


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## OUMoose (Apr 18, 2007)

/tinfoil hat on

Yeah, they need to be ultra-accurate, so when you tune-in they can train their cameras on you to peep in on exactly what you're doing, grab your phone signal out of the air to see who you're talking to, and guesstimate your intentions before you even think it... 

Yeah.. that's it...

/tinfoil hat off



In all seriousness, I've wanted to get one of the small handheld units for a while, but haven't been in a good financial position to get one.   durn never-ending computer upgrades...


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## jim777 (Apr 18, 2007)

The government might be keeping notes on where you're going, but I'm pretty sure they can't afford to hire someone to read those bazillion notes! :lol: 

Anyway, We moved 160 or so miles from mid New York to South New Jersey nearly 3 years ago, and we're getting a Garmin when the tax returns come in. They make your life A LOT easier if you are driving in an area you didn't grow up in or know really well. As mentioned earlier, the recovery from wrong turns and such is a wonderful thing, especially when the box is talking to you, saying "Turn right at Whatever Street in 200 yds" and such.
My personal experience with things like Mapquest is that they usually miss a decimal point at some point in their directions, making 21 miles 2.1 miles and such as well. And, the Garmin is obviosly a lot more convenient if you are in a hurry, or have to get somewhere out of the blue. Also, with the different memory locations in them, you can get to common places (like home, or the hospital or whatever) from wherever you are NOW. Helps if you end up lost somewhere


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## arnisador (Apr 18, 2007)

My wife _loves_ her TomTom. I have a TomTom built into my PDA and it has been useful at times. It has restaurant/hotel/gas station/etc. info.--we used it to find a service station when we had a tire blowout in Arkansas. If it's within your budget, I think you'll quickly come to be glad you own it.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 18, 2007)

arnisador said:


> My wife _loves_ her TomTom. I have a TomTom built into my PDA and it has been useful at times. It has restaurant/hotel/gas station/etc. info.--we used it to find a service station when we had a tire blowout in Arkansas. If it's within your budget, I think you'll quickly come to be glad you own it.



I liked SueSue much better...


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## Kacey (Apr 18, 2007)

Thanks, everyone!

Does anyone know anything about Palm add-ons for GPS?  I have a Palm T|X, and I found this on Amazon, but I don't know anything about it.



 
See larger image Share your own customer images 

*Garmin GPS10 Bluetooth-Enabled Wireless GPS Receiver with Mount and Software *


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## Carol (Apr 18, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Thanks, everyone!
> 
> Does anyone know anything about Palm add-ons for GPS?  I have a Palm T|X, and I found this on Amazon, but I don't know anything about it.
> 
> ...




I'm looking in to them for my crackberry....er....blackberry, as I mentioned here.

The unit that I mentioned may be a bit easier for carrying around as it is smaller and has a belt clip.  A friend of mine has the same unit and he likes it a lot.  He keeps the belt clip on it and simply clips it to the band on his visor, then clips it on his belt or bag when he leaves the car.  He says the battery life is excellent.

You'll need more than just a bluetooth GPS unit.   You'll need a bluetooth enabled Palm, plus mapping software that can display maps as well as interpolate GPS signals.   Price on these varies, one company called Spot makes this for the Blackberry for $50.00....but Research In Motion (the company that makes the Blackberry) makes this available for certain Blackberry units at no charge.  There is also a company called TeleNav that offers this service for $10.00/month.  The difference between these is essentially how many points of interest are on the map.  The Research In Motion software is just a map.  The Spot software offers limited information.  The TeleNav software offers an exhaustive amount of information about local businesses and will even read directions in to your phone for you and point you towards the lowest gas prices in town.

If you plan on using it in your car I'd also strongly recommend some sort of mount.  There are a few devices that will mount a PDA in a viewable position as well as charge it from the cigarette lighter.


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## terryl965 (Apr 18, 2007)

Now that looks pretty cool I want one for myself


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## Kacey (Apr 18, 2007)

Thanks, Carol!  Actually, it's not a Treo, it's a T|X... it suddenly dawned on me it would probably be a lot cheaper to adapt what I already have, especially since I have a car charger and keyboard for the Palm already.


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## Carol (Apr 18, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Thanks, Carol!  Actually, it's not a Treo, it's a T|X... it suddenly dawned on me it would probably be a lot cheaper to adapt what I already have, especially since I have a car charger and keyboard for the Palm already.




Understood.  That's because BigShadow has a Treo and I made that post in response to him.  

I think you'll really enjoy adapting your Palm to be a GPS unit.  My friend has been having a great time with carrying one thats portable.   Enjoy!


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## Ceicei (Apr 18, 2007)

I love my GPS especially when we're travelling long distance or off road.  We had one installed in our car (the type that slides away hidden when not in use, looking like an ordinary stereo).  It's not perfect and the directions have been known to a bit off at times, but as long as it is accurate enough in giving me the general directions (even gives updates such as weather and traffic reports), I'm very satisfied.

- Ceicei


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## Bigshadow (Apr 19, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Understood.  That's because BigShadow has a Treo and I made that post in response to him.
> 
> I think you'll really enjoy adapting your Palm to be a GPS unit.  My friend has been having a great time with carrying one thats portable.   Enjoy!



They make GPS add-ons for the Treo.  I don't know if I would want to do that though.  This is a case where I would want my GPS unit separate from my _"Smart"_ phone 

If I were going to get something for travelling, I would probably buy the Garmin StreetPilot.  The functionality of my Treo is for things I need with me at all times.  I don't need a GPS very often, maybe 6 to 10 times a year.


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## MBuzzy (Apr 20, 2007)

I use a Garmin Street Pilot also and my technically challenged father just bought a newer version and he loves it.

It does help to do a bit of research on the units though.  GPS is a very complex technology, so a basic understanding helps.  For example, be sure that the system that you buy is only a receiver.  When people talk about the "big brother" aspect, remember that it requires some sort of transmission device.  The standard GPS systems are only receivers which decode the GPS signal...it is extremely difficult to track someone who is just receiving a GPS signal because they are not sending anything out - it would be almost like trying to track someone because they had their car radio on.  It doesn't trasmit, it only receives.

Also be VERY VERY cautious of any company or product that charges you any kind of monthly fee.  I don't know if any of these are still out there, but there used to be.  The GPS Satellite constellation is ALWAYS out there.  You don't have to pay a cent to use it, you just need a decoder.  There were a few companies trying to capitalize on people.

Also, be aware that, as stated before, GPS is only as good as the person using it.  The actual GPS technology can only tell you where you are on the earth.  Your decoder will use the Satellites to determine your latitude, longiture and elevation (if you have acquired enough satellites).  The mapping portion is completely proprietary, meaning that all happens within your receiver, so buy one that you're comfortable with and like the display and interface of.  

I love my GPS and I can say that it has NEVER gotten me lost, when I've entered the correct destination....which I always verify using either a map or my knowledge of the area.  BUT - it has taken me some CRAZY ways, sometimes a longer way, based on the direction algorithms.....so it always helps to keep a map around and have a basic knowledge of where you're going.

But no matter what, the GPS sytems on the market now are INCREDIBLE!!  With the possibility of GPS II coming on line and more data being included in the signal, such as traffic info and routing based on traffic patterns, the system will only get better.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 20, 2007)

Another thing that gets people starting out with the hand held GPS devices when hiking and so forth is "Which direction am I facing"?  Unless the GPS is equipped with a compass, it cannot tell you which way you are facing if you are standing still.  It can only provide compass headings by calculating your vector when moving.  So if you are using a handheld such as one of those ETrex types that doesn't have a built in compass, it won't be accurate until you begin moving.  I believe most require you to move at a fair decent clip, depending on the device it could be from 1mph to 4 or 5mph before the direction and speed indications are accurate.


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