# Ordered a Nissan Leaf yesterday



## Steve (Nov 25, 2010)

Well, I'm one step closer.  I ordered a Nissan Leaf yesterday.  Dealer quoted me $100 over MSRP.  So, between a free in-home charger, $7500 tax credit, no WA sales tax and pretty cheap energy prices, I'm pretty happy.  

Looks like I might actually get to drive a 100% electric vehicle by next Spring.


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## Steve (Nov 25, 2010)

Something just occurred to me, and I'm curious to hear your opinions.  People form impressions of you based on the car you drive.  For example, middle aged guy in a Porsche?  Mid-life crisis.  Dude in a Miata?  Gay guy who likes to drive fun cars.  Guy in a VW Bus?  Serial killer or hippy (could be either.  ) This is from an article I read where a guy was testing a Leaf for an  article.  He mentioned in the article that he was flipped off by a guy  in a 4x4.  

Point is, the car we drive sends a message.  Of course, that message depends on who you are.  So, with that, what message do you think a Nissan Leaf (or Chevy Volt/Focus EV) says about the person who drives it?  Are you guys interested in alternative fuels?  Electric vehicles?  Would you purchase one if you had the opportunity?  If not, what would it take to change your mind?


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## Omar B (Nov 25, 2010)

Oh you don't wanna ask me what I think of you in regards to your electric car.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 25, 2010)

I'd drive it.  Then again, I drive a Prius and my wife drives a Highlander hybrid.


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## Steve (Nov 25, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Oh you don't wanna ask me what I think of you in regards to your electric car.


  Really?  Damn.  Does it help if I ordered a black one and plan to tint the windows?


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## Omar B (Nov 25, 2010)

Black you said?


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## Steve (Nov 25, 2010)

That's more like it!


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## Omar B (Nov 25, 2010)

Let me remind you, your car's name will be "Leaf."  Think about that for a while.

Mustang, Cougar, Diablo, Corvette, Viper, Cobra, Blazer, Bronco, Concord, Firebird ... Leaf.  See what I'm getting at here?

These are facts.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 26, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Well, I'm one step closer. I ordered a Nissan Leaf yesterday. Dealer quoted me $100 over MSRP. So, between a free in-home charger, $7500 tax credit, no WA sales tax and pretty cheap energy prices, I'm pretty happy.
> 
> Looks like I might actually get to drive a 100% electric vehicle by next Spring.


 


stevebjj said:


> Something just occurred to me, and I'm curious to hear your opinions. People form impressions of you based on the car you drive. For example, middle aged guy in a Porsche? Mid-life crisis. Dude in a Miata? Gay guy who likes to drive fun cars. Guy in a VW Bus? Serial killer or hippy (could be either.  ) This is from an article I read where a guy was testing a Leaf for an article. He mentioned in the article that he was flipped off by a guy in a 4x4.
> 
> Point is, the car we drive sends a message. Of course, that message depends on who you are. So, with that, what message do you think a Nissan Leaf (or Chevy Volt/Focus EV) says about the person who drives it? Are you guys interested in alternative fuels? Electric vehicles? Would you purchase one if you had the opportunity? If not, what would it take to change your mind?


 
Steve,

What is your daily commute? 

The $7,500 charger, is it a 120 Volt or 240 Volt charging system? 

Did you know that the Nissan Leaf uses a proprietary charging system?
And that SAE and others standards groups are working on designing one. A real good chance it will not be the Nissan Leaf version. If you had to buy an adaptor to use at other charge stations would that upset you?

What is the energy source for your local electricity? 
If it is more Coal (* most likely in the US *) then you could be a worse for emissions, but it just would not be tail pipe. 


Did you lease or buy?



Yes I have a personal motive. I work for GM, the group/team I work for/with did the controls for the powertrain. My next program is a battery electric vehicle (BEV), not the Extended Range Electric Vehicle (Volt - EREV). I have most of the info from the Nissan websites. I am curious about your comments as a customer. 

Thanks


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## Steve (Nov 26, 2010)

Rich Parsons said:


> Steve,
> 
> What is your daily commute?


10 miles door to door.  Plus 10 to the BJJ school.  So, 40 miles on training days.  Add 10 or so for grocery shopping etc.





> The $7,500 charger, is it a 120 Volt or 240 Volt charging system?


Well, first, the estimates I heard were $2000 to $3000, and there's a tax credit involved with the installation (although since mine's gratis, I didn't find out how much).  

Second, 240 volt, 40 amp.  I should be able to charge the car about 10 percent per hour.   


> Did you know that the Nissan Leaf uses a proprietary charging system?
> And that SAE and others standards groups are working on designing one. A real good chance it will not be the Nissan Leaf version. If you had to buy an adaptor to use at other charge stations would that upset you?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

One of the big things I was looking for.  The Leaf version is the SAE standard and will be used in all North American charging stations and, I believe, all of the chargeable cars, too.  Volt, Focus EV, Prius plug in, etc.  


> What is the energy source for your local electricity?
> If it is more Coal (* most likely in the US *) then you could be a worse for emissions, but it just would not be tail pipe.


It's a mix: coal, wind, hydro and biomass.  There's no perfect solution.  I voluntarily pay about $10 more per month to opt into PSE's green power program.  

ultimately, to run the car i'm looking at about 6 or 8 kwh per night with no gasoline, no carbon emissions while driving, no oil changes ever, and no transmission fluid.     There's no way that's going to be worse for emissions.  Particularly since electricity usage varies so greatly house to house.  The way I see it, my house is so friggin efficient, I can afford to let go a little. 

The battery is a much larger concern to me than the power source, and that's something that will definitely need to be addressed.



> Did you lease or buy?


I'm going to buy.  I was concerned for a while because there was talk about buying the car, but being made to lease the battery.  Turns out, the government was concerned too and equated that to selling a new car without a powertrain.  


> Yes I have a personal motive. I work for GM, the group/team I work for/with did the controls for the powertrain. My next program is a battery electric vehicle (BEV), not the Extended Range Electric Vehicle (Volt - EREV). I have most of the info from the Nissan websites. I am curious about your comments as a customer.


Awesome.  I'd be happy to go through what I know with you. 

Thanks[/quote]


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## Steve (Nov 26, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Let me remind you, your car's name will be "Leaf." Think about that for a while.
> 
> Mustang, Cougar, Diablo, Corvette, Viper, Cobra, Blazer, Bronco, Concord, Firebird ... Leaf. See what I'm getting at here?
> 
> These are facts.


At least they didn't call it something so feminine i'd never be able to drive it... like the BumbleBee.  Oh man... that wouldn't work at all.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 26, 2010)

I have always referred to electric cars as the car of the assassin....  because they can't hear you coming :EG: never mess with a person that drives and electric car :uhyeah:


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## Steve (Nov 26, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have always referred to electric cars as the car of the assassin.... because they can't hear you coming :EG: never mess with a person that drives and electric car :uhyeah:


   There's actually a very mild noise added to the car up to 18 mph so that people who are blind can hear it coming.  I think they should have made it sound like a Jetson's car, but whatever.

Personally, if you're driving under 18 mph and can't avoid a blind person, you need to have your own vision checked.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 26, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> There's actually a very mild noise added to the car up to 18 mph so that people who are blind can hear it coming.  I think they should have made it sound like a Jetson's car, but whatever.
> 
> Personally, if you're driving under 18 mph and can't avoid a blind person, you need to have your own vision checked.


and then there are these kind of people




 

My grandfather can't hear my prius.  Then again, he says "huh?" alot too.


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## jks9199 (Nov 26, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> There's actually a very mild noise added to the car up to 18 mph so that people who are blind can hear it coming.  I think they should have made it sound like a Jetson's car, but whatever.
> 
> Personally, if you're driving under 18 mph and can't avoid a blind person, you need to have your own vision checked.


At 18 mph, you're travelling about 26 1/2 feet per second.  Reaction time is about 1.5 seconds; that means you travel about 40 feet in the time it takes you to react.  So... a person doesn't hear the car coming (blind or just distracted), and steps off the curb...  while you're 25 feet away...  Can you react and stop in time?  Most people wouldn't be able to.

That's why they added that noise...


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 26, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> 10 miles door to door. Plus 10 to the BJJ school. So, 40 miles on training days. Add 10 or so for grocery shopping etc.Well, first, the estimates I heard were $2000 to $3000, and there's a tax credit involved with the installation (although since mine's gratis, I didn't find out how much).
> 
> Second, 240 volt, 40 amp. I should be able to charge the car about 10 percent per hour.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
> ...


 
Steve,

Thanks for the reply. 

Do you understand that the 99 mile on the window is supposed to be under perfect test conditions. 70 F. Under colder and hotter temps the battery is not as efficient. NOTE: All manufacturers will run into this. I just wanted you to know so that on your 50 mile day you are not caught walking. 


 I will have to talk to the charger group again, but I know there is discussion on the J1772. Given your quote of 10% per hour I think they might be compliant for the voltage range specified, but for a fast charge the system might be under discussion. I know that the Department of Energy was going to build a bunch of chargers to match the Nissan system when other manufacturers not jsut the one I work for ask the government why? So I will get more details. Thanks


Yes your battery will be the most important part and it also will be the most costly and the biggest impact to the environment. The manufacturing and disposal will be key. 

http://hubpages.com/hub/Prius
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f33/toyota-prius-bad-environment-12657/

The above to links are for the Nickle Battery in the Prius. Those cells cannot be made in the US, the manufacuring process cannot meet any form of emission regs. 

Which is why most are switching to Lithium. 



Right now post are still made over seas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt


> Reuters reported in October, 2008 that GM had decided to work exclusively with Compact Power Incorporated (CPI), a Detroit-based unit of South Koreas LG Chem, to develop the battery systems for the first production version of the Volt.[58][59][60][61] The cells will be produced in Korea and subsequently shipped to the United States, where the battery packs will be assembled at a purpose-built facility in Brownstown Township, Michigan owned and operated by GM.[62]


 
There are some companies, looking to build procesing plants here in the US for the different Lithium Chemistries. 



Does the Leaf have a 8 year / 150,000 mile warrenty?
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20010600-48.html

I am curious is all. Because I think they do, and would if they qualified for the Hybrid market. But All Electric still falls through many loop holes. 


I will have to wat until I can talk to some more people next week at work.

Thanks


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## crushing (Nov 26, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> There's actually a very mild noise added to the car up to 18 mph so that people who are blind can hear it coming.  I think they should have made it sound like a Jetson's car, but whatever.
> 
> Personally, if you're driving under 18 mph and can't avoid a blind person, you need to have your own vision checked.



A nice feature would be for you to be able to supply your own mp3 or wav sounds, Jetsons, F16, X-Winger Fighter, Helicopter, etc.   I can imagine my father-in-law googling for various pull my finger noises for such a feature.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 26, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have always referred to electric cars as the car of the assassin.... because they can't hear you coming :EG: never mess with a person that drives and electric car :uhyeah:


 


stevebjj said:


> There's actually a very mild noise added to the car up to 18 mph so that people who are blind can hear it coming. I think they should have made it sound like a Jetson's car, but whatever.
> 
> Personally, if you're driving under 18 mph and can't avoid a blind person, you need to have your own vision checked.


 


Bob Hubbard said:


> and then there are these kind of people
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


jks9199 said:


> At 18 mph, you're travelling about 26 1/2 feet per second. Reaction time is about 1.5 seconds; that means you travel about 40 feet in the time it takes you to react. So... a person doesn't hear the car coming (blind or just distracted), and steps off the curb... while you're 25 feet away... Can you react and stop in time? Most people wouldn't be able to.
> 
> That's why they added that noise...


 

Yes there is discussion on the regulations to make it required. I know that the manufacturers are looking into a standard and also looking into what should be used. 

As to the Jetsons space car sound, I have that in one of my early presentations as the sound we should use.  I know with royalties per usage and such would make it not reasonable. 

I agree that vehicles are silent and you need to hear them. But there are people in cars today that cannot hear the pipes on my Harley until I am past them. Noise, doppler effect as a noise approaches and then passes you it changes in frequency. Manufacturers spend lots fo money to make cars quiet inside and out, as the market wants this. Now they will spend mroe money to design and make a system to make noise on purpose for safety. 

I do not argue the reason for safety, nor do I think it is a bad idea. 

I just want people to look at the cost of an early 90's car to 2000 and see the changes in content and safety (* many of which people may not know or want or care about, but are there because of market or government regs *) Realize that new tech might give a slight cost increase for said new tech, but over a short few years the cost of the vehicle is back close to the older price. Also add in Inflation and gets even closer or the car becomes cheaper with more stuff in the old dollars prices. Which does nothing for the payment of today.  

The Hybrid Electric costs will take more time in my opinion to shake out the market and lower back. Scales of volume as well as always having new tech. The tech and chemistry is moving faster than a development and validation program for a vehicle. This means more change quicker and less settling into a single design.


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## jks9199 (Nov 26, 2010)

Rich Parsons said:


> I agree that vehicles are silent and you need to hear them. But there are people in cars today that cannot hear the pipes on my Harley until I am past them. Noise, doppler effect as a noise approaches and then passes you it changes in frequency. Manufacturers spend lots fo money to make cars quiet inside and out, as the market wants this. Now they will spend mroe money to design and make a system to make noise on purpose for safety.
> 
> I do not argue the reason for safety, nor do I think it is a bad idea.



I've got problems with how soundproofed cars are today; people don't hear sirens until your on top of them.  

But the exterior noise here isn't for cars.  It's for pedestrians who may not otherwise realize the car is coming.  My personal suggestion is that it should be a CAR noise...  After all, it's what people are used to!  Give it a Jetson's sound or whatever, and they won't know what it is.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 26, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> There's actually a very mild noise added to the car up to 18 mph so that people who are blind can hear it coming. I think they should have made it sound like a Jetson's car, but whatever.
> 
> Personally, if you're driving under 18 mph and can't avoid a blind person, you need to have your own vision checked.


 
I am actually very intersted in the leaf and the volt soon to come and I hope they do what they claim... if they are my next car may just be electric


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## Steve (Nov 26, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> At 18 mph, you're travelling about 26 1/2 feet per second. Reaction time is about 1.5 seconds; that means you travel about 40 feet in the time it takes you to react. So... a person doesn't hear the car coming (blind or just distracted), and steps off the curb... while you're 25 feet away... Can you react and stop in time? Most people wouldn't be able to.
> 
> That's why they added that noise...


The speed limit in a school zone is 25 mph.  Kids are always a threat to jump out in the street.  The speed limit at my work is 15 and that's unbearably slow.  I'm not saying you're wrong.  Just saying that this is likely to save very few lives, IMO.



Rich Parsons said:


> Steve,
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> Do you understand that the 99 mile on the window is supposed to be under perfect test conditions. 70 F. Under colder and hotter temps the battery is not as efficient. NOTE: All manufacturers will run into this. I just wanted you to know so that on your 50 mile day you are not caught walking.


Under extreme conditions, with full climate control at freeway speeds, up and down hills it got over 70 miles.  In ideal conditions, 35 mph with no climate control, it got over 130 miles.    



> I will have to talk to the charger group again, but I know there is discussion on the J1772. Given your quote of 10% per hour I think they might be compliant for the voltage range specified, but for a fast charge the system might be under discussion. I know that the Department of Energy was going to build a bunch of chargers to match the Nissan system when other manufacturers not jsut the one I work for ask the government why? So I will get more details. Thanks


Looking forward to it.  


> Yes your battery will be the most important part and it also will be the most costly and the biggest impact to the environment. The manufacturing and disposal will be key.
> 
> http://hubpages.com/hub/Prius
> http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f33/toyota-prius-bad-environment-12657/
> ...


The batteries in the leaf are lithium, and they will be manufactured in north carolina after the factory is built.  While they're 'recyclable' I have my doubts about exactly what they mean by that. 


> Does the Leaf have a 8 year / 150,000 mile warrenty?
> http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20010600-48.html
> 
> I am curious is all. Because I think they do, and would if they qualified for the Hybrid market. But All Electric still falls through many loop holes.


8 year, 100k IIRC.  




crushing said:


> A nice feature would be for you to be able to supply your own mp3 or wav sounds, Jetsons, F16, X-Winger Fighter, Helicopter, etc. I can imagine my father-in-law googling for various pull my finger noises for such a feature.


 


jks9199 said:


> I've got problems with how soundproofed cars are today; people don't hear sirens until your on top of them.
> 
> But the exterior noise here isn't for cars. It's for pedestrians who may not otherwise realize the car is coming. My personal suggestion is that it should be a CAR noise... After all, it's what people are used to! Give it a Jetson's sound or whatever, and they won't know what it is.


The above is exactly the rationale I heard for not allowing customization of the noise.  But it would be cool.  


Xue Sheng said:


> I am actually very intersted in the leaf and the volt soon to come and I hope they do what they claim... if they are my next car may just be electric


The Volt is an interesting concept, although targeting longer range customers opens up competition with hybrids and some awesome turbo diesels which can get upwards of 50 mpg in mixed driving (hwy/city) without any batteries, hassle and for much less money.  The VW Polo is rated at something like 48 mpg mixed driving.  While not sold in America (for whatever reason), it's far cheaper than a Volt or even a Leaf.


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## Steve (Nov 26, 2010)

Oops.  Sorry.  Correction.  The batteries will be manufactured in Smyrna, Tenn.

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/13-k...san-leaf-battery-pack-and-ordering-28007.html

Some of the information is obsolete now, but the stuff about the factory is still accurate.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 26, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Oops. Sorry. Correction. The batteries will be manufactured in Smyrna, Tenn.
> 
> http://www.hybridcars.com/news/13-k...san-leaf-battery-pack-and-ordering-28007.html
> 
> Some of the information is obsolete now, but the stuff about the factory is still accurate.


 
Yes the packs just like the Volt are being built in the US. What I would like to see and it is not your issue, nor something you have not tried to provide, just me asking the cyber space, is where are the Cells made. Usually cells are made and then sent somewhere to make Modules. Some companies make the modules and cells together and then sipp the modules to make the packs. Others ship the cells and they make the modules and pack at or near the same site. 

I expect more and more of the Lithium ones to be made within the US.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 26, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> I've got problems with how soundproofed cars are today; people don't hear sirens until your on top of them.
> 
> But the exterior noise here isn't for cars. It's for pedestrians who may not otherwise realize the car is coming. My personal suggestion is that it should be a CAR noise... After all, it's what people are used to! Give it a Jetson's sound or whatever, and they won't know what it is.


 
JKS,

You idea is a good one, in my opinion. 

1) I could not comment on the actual sound until it is offically released to the press.
(* My program was released to the press in Europe, so I have not violated any issues there for me. *) So please take my silence on that point not as being upset or frustrated.

2) There is already in place a third party company that makes sounds of vehicles. You can "tune" your vehicle to sound like a diesel truck to many of the European Sports Cars. 

3) I will make comments to the people I can about those I have communicated with and their preferrence. i.e. your comment about vehicles making vehicle sounds.



Thanks


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## jks9199 (Nov 26, 2010)

Rich -- I understand that you're under limits on what you can say, and if my opinion gets through and helps, great.  I'd add that maybe some work on more selective range soundproofing (eliminate road noise, etc, but let siren frequencies through better) or a gimmick in the cars with the active sound canceling (I forget which it is) that signals a siren being picked up could be beneficial.

For the comments on speeds -- there are school zones where the limit is 15 mph.  And kids are going to run into the road even if you make the cars sound like 747s.  The idea, as I'm getting it, is that electric cars are so quiet that people who do know better than jumping off the curb in front of an approaching car might do so simply because they can't hear it coming.  No, we can't stupid-proof the world.  But we can take steps as things change and develop to work within frameworks that people know.


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## Steve (Nov 26, 2010)

Just another Leaf item to throw out here, it looks like the EPA has come up with some kind of a MPG equivalency (MPGe) based upon the amount of energy in one gallon of gasoline.  Essentially,  33.7 kwh = 1 gallon of gas, although it gets complicated when multiple energy sources are brought into play, such as with a Volt or other "plug-in" hybrids.

Leaf is rated at 99 MPGe.

The Volt has a small battery and will take you between 25 and 50 miles on a charge.  In this mode, it's rated at 93 MPGe.  In combined driving mode it's rated at 60 MPGe.  Once the power's gone and you're running off the generator, you'll get 37 MPGe.

The way I looked at it when I was deciding whether to take the plunge or not was basically like this:  I get 22 mpg in my mazda and that's conservatively about 2 gallons per day at over $3.00 per gallon the way I currently drive.  So, rounding it down, I spend about $6.00 per day or $42/week on gasoline.  If I plug in nightly and use, lets say 20 kw/h per day (which based on what I've read is realistic), that's about $2/day or $14 per week at current prices.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/11/22/nissan-leaf-snags-99-mpg-rating-on-official-epa-sticker/

http://www.automobile.com/epa-releases-mpg-ratings-for-chevrolet-volt.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent


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## Steve (Nov 27, 2010)

Here's an opposition piece. I have some comments, but I'd really like to hear what you guys think, first.

EDITORIAL: Nissan's 99 MPG smugmobile



> State and federal governments somehow think the electric boondoggle is worth supporting with your money, while at the same time claiming that no funding is available to expand existing freeways to reduce congestion. Instead of subsidizing left-wing radicals, it's time for politicians to concentrate on the roads that serve all Americans.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/nov/27/nissans-99-mpg-smugmobile/


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 29, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Rich -- I understand that you're under limits on what you can say, and if my opinion gets through and helps, great. I'd add that maybe some work on more selective range soundproofing (eliminate road noise, etc, but let siren frequencies through better) or a gimmick in the cars with the active sound canceling (I forget which it is) that signals a siren being picked up could be beneficial.
> 
> For the comments on speeds -- there are school zones where the limit is 15 mph. And kids are going to run into the road even if you make the cars sound like 747s. The idea, as I'm getting it, is that electric cars are so quiet that people who do know better than jumping off the curb in front of an approaching car might do so simply because they can't hear it coming. No, we can't stupid-proof the world. But we can take steps as things change and develop to work within frameworks that people know.


 
Active noise cancellation is something I do not work on, but the Noise and vibe guys are in some of the same meetings so I will drop a comment or two.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 11, 2011)

Steve,

I know I posted this in a couple fo palces but wanted to make sure you were able to read some articles and get some feedback from other Nissan Leaf Owners.

best wishes.

http://jalopnik.com/#!5780215/nissan-electric-car-stranding-owners

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/


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## Steve (Mar 11, 2011)

Rich Parsons said:


> Steve,
> 
> I know I posted this in a couple fo palces but wanted to make sure you were able to read some articles and get some feedback from other Nissan Leaf Owners.
> 
> ...



Rich, as I said in another thread, I'm a member of mynissanleaf.com and read the articles posted with interest.  I think it's extremely important for people to understand what they're buying and what they aren't.  I've said many times that an EV just isn't practical for many people.  But for those who can benefit, it's going to be great.  

This is, of course, AFTER the bugs are worked out.  I'm typically not an intrepid early adopter, and I've committed to this only after extensive research into the pros and cons.

I'll be very frank and honest about how things go after I purchase the car, if anyone's interested.  I obviously have high hopes, but I'm not an Apple owner, blinded by love for the brand.  I'll be honest if something doesn't work.


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