# te waza too fiddly?



## Devin (May 15, 2006)

I'm not an experienced aikidoka by any means, but it looks to me like the various joint lock and throw techniques we do like shiho nage and kote gaeshi are very difficult to apply on a resisting opponent. Especially one who retracts their fist after throwing a punch.

A major problem I find when doing randori is that when a person does a body shift to take me off balance I can just step in and hit them. This follow up attack is especially effective because their hands are busy dealing with the arm I attacked with first.

Does anyone else find this to be true? Are the body to body techniques like irimi nage and do gaeshi a better choice for dealing with punches?


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## Jenna (May 15, 2006)

Devin said:
			
		

> I'm not an experienced aikidoka by any means, but it looks to me like the various joint lock and throw techniques we do like shiho nage and kote gaeshi are very difficult to apply on a resisting opponent. Especially one who retracts their fist after throwing a punch.


Hey Devin-san 

It is all good that you are practising with resisting opponents because only this way will show you that the tech is working. OK so at the minute you're finding it difficult, you say  you're inexperienced, this is ok, don't be getting too concerned. You picked a good one in shiho nage or the four-directions throw because that will show up your weaknesses better than many other techs. Thing to always remember is to move YOURSELF not your opponent. If uke is resisting then you must move around in such a way that he cannot resist you - never try to force because one day there'll be someone bigger or stronger who can't be strongarmed! The rotation is the key! For shiho nage, move yourself around, leave his hand EXACTLY where it is and you will find by YOUR movement, he has absolutely no choice in the matter and will begin to move back with you and off balance. If it helps, keep your two hands together to give you the picture of the circle you are making. Keep on moving around and don't be afraid to go too far just so long as you are facing his back at which stage you should be lowering your centre, moving under his arm and dropping him straight back.

Kote gaeshi is the same. If your uke is not moving then it is not your lack of strength or force - believe me, I know. Once the kote gaeshi is on properly, there's not a thing your opponent can do to resist short of voluntarily breaking their wrist, LOL.  Nope, it's because you prolly haven't got sufficient rotation and direction on uke's wrist. My advice for this would be quite simply to practise on yourself since kote gaeshi is after a form of wrist stretching exercise - while your left hand is getting rotated and gets a nice stretch, the right hand is actively practising the correct kote gaeshi hold. Practise, practise!! And don't be disheartened! Trust me, soon, very soon, it will just "click" and switch on the little light in your head that'll probably illuminate a lot of other stuff too.

My my, I've come over all serious and preachy, ha! That'll not do, I'm off for some cake 

Good luck and practise! practise! Build your Aikido little by little and your adaptability to punches and improvisation during randori will come soon enough 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Devin (May 15, 2006)

I was just using those techniques as examples. I'm wondering if you can really expect to even get into position for kote gaeshi or robuse (for example) with an opponent who will simply step every time you do a body shift to get unbalancing.

For example, I punch at someone, they deflect the attack, secure my hand, and step sideways to unbalance me.

And I turn and step as they move. Bam, perfect position to sucker punch.


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## Rich Parsons (May 15, 2006)

Devin said:
			
		

> I was just using those techniques as examples. I'm wondering if you can really expect to even get into position for kote gaeshi or robuse (for example) with an opponent who will simply step every time you do a body shift to get unbalancing.
> 
> For example, I punch at someone, they deflect the attack, secure my hand, and step sideways to unbalance me.
> 
> And I turn and step as they move. Bam, perfect position to sucker punch.



Devin,

I am not a pratictioner of Aikido, but I do practice Joint locks. In a fist fight it is hard to pull them off, but if you have never tried, it is even harder. But, I have pulled off more on people who wanted to wrestle or were int eh flow of other things and left their fingers or wrist exposed for attack. 

I would recommend practicing first to understand the basic motions of the technique. Then understand how the person moves to get out of it, by having them move slowly so you can feel it. Then increase the resistance. The big issue is that if you know the counter as to their resistance or counter then you can try to execute your counter as well in the similiar fashion in a controller slow motion to unerstand the movement. 

Good luck


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## jujutsu_indonesia (May 16, 2006)

Devin said:
			
		

> I'm not an experienced aikidoka by any means, but it looks to me like the various joint lock and throw techniques we do like shiho nage and kote gaeshi are very difficult to apply on a resisting opponent. Especially one who retracts their fist after throwing a punch.


 
Aikido and Aiki Jujutsu on their pure forms is to fight against commited attacks. Full power shomen and tsuki. Not jab-retract-jab-retract attacks like western boxing. To deal with such retracting punch, add some karate and/or JKD kicking on your repertoire. Better yet, study grappling so you can get close and take them down. On the other hand, Aikido/Aiki Jujutsu finger locks will do wonders during a grappling situations   The moral of the story is, the more well rounded you are, the better


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## Jenna (May 16, 2006)

Devin said:
			
		

> I was just using those techniques as examples. I'm wondering if you can really expect to even get into position for kote gaeshi or robuse (for example) with an opponent who will simply step every time you do a body shift to get unbalancing.
> 
> For example, I punch at someone, they deflect the attack, secure my hand, and step sideways to unbalance me.
> 
> And I turn and step as they move. Bam, perfect position to sucker punch.


Hey Devin san 

Yes of course I expect to be in position. If he wants to strike me or lay his hands on me then he has to come get me. As soon as he moves to impel his hand towards me as a strike then that is my target. Without wanting to be cheeky or condescending, I think you have a few things that you might like to speak with your sensei or senior students about: distance awareness, speed of anticipation and speed of footwork but these are all easily rectified with practise if someone can pin down where your current weakness lies. All good though and once it is "diagnosed" then other pieces of the jigsaw will fit also!!

If your opponent is moving then watch for their weak line - aikidoka or not, no one is flawlessly grounded especially when moving around.  You remember exploitation of the weak line from your shomen uchi beginnings I am sure.

If you let me, I would suggest two things.....
1.--- If you are getting caught by the sucker punch AS AN OPENER then your anticipation maybe isn't as good as it will get for you - and I am sorry I am not certain how long you have been training but that will come. There are subtle clues in your opponent's stance - if he takes a side-on boxer's stance and his weight is to his back leg then either the punch (hook) is coming from THAT side or a side kick from THAT side or a front kick or snap kick from the OTHER side. Likewise if his weight is to the front leg then there's a jab coming from THAT side. Awareness of subtleties is key to anticipation here. But in any case, you need to ensure you are OUT of his range until he commits. Move on his intention and don't wait for it and yeah ANY appropriate technique should work, the dependency is usually on  start positions and where you want to put him - especially if you are doing randori with multiple opponents where having control of one acts as a buffer between you and the others.

2. --- If you are getting caught by the sucker punch when you are IN THE MIDDLE OF your technique then yes, that suggests that you may have either chosen an inappropriate technique OR you have STOPPED moving. If you have control of him and are moving him around then his options should be limited to what you let him do. Never stop moving whether you are engaged or not. 

I know this sounds very theoretical and I am wondering if your opponent for your randori is going full out when  you might learn more from doing the "zombie" exercise?? I'm not sure if you've ever done that - it's a right laugh actually where your opponent or opponents come atcha like zombies slow but with intent but this exercise gives you a better chance to anticipate the strike, to see it coming and to neutralise it. Anyway I sound like I'm mad now but only sometimes, ha!

You be good,
Jenna


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## Jenna (May 16, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Devin,
> 
> I am not a pratictioner of Aikido, but I do practice Joint locks. In a fist fight it is hard to pull them off, but if you have never tried, it is even harder. But, I have pulled off more on people who wanted to wrestle or were int eh flow of other things and left their fingers or wrist exposed for attack.
> 
> ...


Hey big Rich 
Yes, this is exactly what I am trying to say but using far too many characters and broadband to say it 

Aikido is odd sometimes because it cannot be adequately understood from lecture or reading. It has to be FELT. A tech must be FELT for the aikidoka to know that it is right. And I wonder if Devin's randori is full out to give any impression for the feel of a technique.

Anyway, I see Devin is from the Yoshinkan school so he'd know way more tham me about getting HIT!! LOL  Striking isn't a great part of my Aikido make up so what do I know anyway? I'm off to be a zombie instead *undead groan*

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## samurai69 (May 16, 2006)

A technique is only applied to the relevant attack

In class we train all techniques from all attacks on all shapes of attacker, but in reality a shiho may not be the best defence for a shomen attack (maybe not the best example)

In a street type fight it is un-likely to go up against  a jab type attack (unless they are a trained boxer, and even then probably not).

my wife is 5', and i have a student of 6'5" and though we train all techniques from all attacks.......some would not be practical for either training with each other.


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## theletch1 (May 16, 2006)

I think part of the problem with getting caught with the sucker punch from a resisting uke is that once uke feels the technique being set up (and as an aikido-ka he'll know what's coming while someone on the street won't) he is adding resistance a little at a time, nage gets focused on the technique at hand (ha!) and gets a bit of tunnel vision.  Once I've made contact with the initial attacking hand I don't have to be concentrating on that extremety any more.  Keep an eye on the rest of uke's weapons and feel for him to build up for the sucker punch.  Allow your training to simply take over with the initial technique while you scan all the input uke is giving you during the technique.

Sorry if this post seems a bit disjointed.  I made it all through winter without getting sick once but now that spring is here my beloved decided that sharing everything meant her chest and sinus cold as well.  My head feels about the size of the Hindenburg right now.:erg:


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## MartialIntent (May 16, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Aikido and Aiki Jujutsu on their pure forms is to fight against commited attacks. Full power shomen and tsuki. Not jab-retract-jab-retract attacks like western boxing. To deal with such retracting punch, add some karate and/or JKD kicking on your repertoire. Better yet, study grappling so you can get close and take them down. On the other hand, Aikido/Aiki Jujutsu finger locks will do wonders during a grappling situations  The moral of the story is, the more well rounded you are, the better


I have to take you up on this, not to be argumentative but just to restate my humble opinion that Aikido doesn't *need* supplementary techniques to make it a "rounded" art. While there is certainly merit in the aikidoka training against a karateka or at least training against another aikidoka simulating karate or boxing strikes [a good idea for ANY aikidoka] there is in my opinion no need to add-on extra non-Aikido techs to make the practitioner more competent. Instead of studying grappling, I would always advocate that the aikidoka work on their awareness to the potential for grappling drops so they are not put in the position. After all, isn't this what Aikido is about? And why we do no direct blocking of incoming strikes?

If the practitioner *likes* his or her Aikido and is happy doing it, ain't no need to go supplementing. It's a complete package right there already you just have to look at it with a bit more of an open mind and think about the application a little more _laterally_ sometimes. Persevere on the same path rather than hopping off at every junction to see what's down there.

Respects!


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## Devin (May 16, 2006)

Thanks for the replies all,

"2. --- If you are getting caught by the sucker punch when you are IN THE MIDDLE OF your technique then yes, that suggests that you may have either chosen an inappropriate technique OR you have STOPPED moving. If you have control of him and are moving him around then his options should be limited to what you let him do. Never stop moving whether you are engaged or not."

The sucker punching happens in the middle of the technique (a strike first policy in randori helps me avoid being caught flat-footed). I don't pull of the punch because my partner stops, but rather because I catch up to them.

Does this mean they should move faster? I have a hunch that isn't the case, as moving too fast initially fouls up the technique. I guess the nage must be sensitive enough to the uke to speed up as they do, but that's a very, very hard thing to do.


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## Yari (May 17, 2006)

Devin said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies all,
> 
> "2. --- If you are getting caught by the sucker punch when you are IN THE MIDDLE OF your technique then yes, that suggests that you may have either chosen an inappropriate technique OR you have STOPPED moving. If you have control of him and are moving him around then his options should be limited to what you let him do. Never stop moving whether you are engaged or not."
> 
> ...


 
It's not just at question of moving fast or slow. But other parameteres fit in: Timing, maai, atemi and the such. If your positioning yourself for a suckerpunch (or what ever). I would state that your doing the tehcnique wrong. you've got to remember that a technique isn't just at question on how the arms and legs move, but also in relation to uke(opponent).

/Yari


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## Jenna (May 17, 2006)

Devin said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies all,
> 
> "2. --- If you are getting caught by the sucker punch when you are IN THE MIDDLE OF your technique then yes, that suggests that you may have either chosen an inappropriate technique OR you have STOPPED moving. If you have control of him and are moving him around then his options should be limited to what you let him do. Never stop moving whether you are engaged or not."
> 
> ...


Hey Devin san 

I have to agree with Yari above, there are many variables and as you say sensitivity is a difficult thing to capture. There are many Aikido exercises to help develop that sensitivity to your opponent's movements and I am sure you have practised already "pushing hands" or wrist-to-wrist techniques etc. 

My knowledge of your style is lacking which is why I am not being more specific. Maybe if you could explain the goal of your randori that will I am certain help me to explain better 

I will admit to a complete unfamiliarity with your Yoshinkan randori as it sounds more competitive, like sparring, is this correct? Are you not training solely defensively but rather on a "scoring" basis? Apologies for my ignorance but I would be interested sincerely in knowing. Oh yeah - seeker of knowledge me, for real, ha! 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## jujutsu_indonesia (May 17, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I have to take you up on this, not to be argumentative but just to restate my humble opinion that Aikido doesn't *need* supplementary techniques to make it a "rounded" art. While there is certainly merit in the aikidoka training against a karateka or at least training against another aikidoka simulating karate or boxing strikes [a good idea for ANY aikidoka] there is in my opinion no need to add-on extra non-Aikido techs to make the practitioner more competent. Instead of studying grappling, I would always advocate that the aikidoka work on their awareness to the potential for grappling drops so they are not put in the position. After all, isn't this what Aikido is about? And why we do no direct blocking of incoming strikes?
> 
> If the practitioner *likes* his or her Aikido and is happy doing it, ain't no need to go supplementing. It's a complete package right there already you just have to look at it with a bit more of an open mind and think about the application a little more _laterally_ sometimes. Persevere on the same path rather than hopping off at every junction to see what's down there.
> 
> Respects!


 
Points taken my friend 

I think our mindset is rather different from the start. I am glad if anyone decided to study their Aiki art very hard & be able to become much better, well-rounded practitioner.

However, I am at heart a crosstrainer. My main art is Karate (Goju and Wado), then I discovered that the Jujutsu/Aiki Jujutsu that I learned from Ben Haryo sensei is a wonderful art, and the Aikido I learned (briefly!) from Mr. Huang is a wonderful art with an excellent personal philosophy of love and harmony.

To put it in another way, I am an Asian, I eat rice and soybean, but every now and then I eat meat and potato too   I know that rice and soybean already contains all nutrients I need, but it is nice to eat a little steak every now and then, to add spice and variety in my life


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## MartialIntent (May 18, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Points taken my friend
> 
> I think our mindset is rather different from the start. I am glad if anyone decided to study their Aiki art very hard & be able to become much better, well-rounded practitioner.
> 
> ...


While I certainly believe cross training has its merits, I think the student has to keep in mind the risk that they will become a practitioner of an incohesive "art" using a bit of this and a bit of that and a bit of the other. What I mean is that your Goju Ryu, Wado Ryu or Jujutsu are full and complete arts in themselves. And rather than supplementing the "weak" areas of the one with "strong" areas of the other, why not work on the "weak" areas within the art itself ? I mean, there's nothing wrong with sampling another art - sample them all I say but not if it's to plug up the gaps in your main art, I think that's where confusion arises. I have seen Aikido students do bong sau and various blocks when they should have been going for irimi or whatever. I just think cross training and trying to shove it into one's art is awkward at best and dilutes the essence of the art at worst.

Sorry, I know I'm covering old ground again but I really believe in the wholeness and completeness of an art.

I like your analogy of the rice and the steak... that works! But then I'm certain you've never had to defend yourself on the street with a bowl of rice and soybeans! LOL  Only joking!

Respects!


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## Hand Sword (May 18, 2006)

Devin said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies all,
> 
> "2. --- If you are getting caught by the sucker punch when you are IN THE MIDDLE OF your technique then yes, that suggests that you may have either chosen an inappropriate technique OR you have STOPPED moving. If you have control of him and are moving him around then his options should be limited to what you let him do. Never stop moving whether you are engaged or not."
> 
> ...


 
It's all irrelevant if you're talking about a real sucker punch. You won't see it, you'll just feel it. It usually opens up an attack, not ocurring in the middle of one.


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## MartialIntent (May 18, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> It's all irrelevant if you're talking about a real sucker punch. You won't see it, you'll just feel it. It usually opens up an attack, not ocurring in the middle of one.


Not so necessarily HS. Striking arts are very much cyclical in-strike-out but because Aikido techniques are often longer - if I've got the lock on you, I can move you around for a bit until I decide where I'm gonna put you - often students are so preoccupied they forget to notice that the opponent has a hand free. 

And while during tech training uke forgets this also for the sake of practising the technique, there's nothing to stop an advanced or more aware or experienced uke throwing a hook around with the free hand just to make the point [and obviously this *will* happen in randori]. I would do this often to show a student that either [as Jenna said] they have actually stopped and not realised, or their position in relation to the opponent is not correct and gives them too much visibility to the opponent or opportunity to be made a target. This is not a good idea for the aikidoka but constant movement and good ma ai are difficult concepts to acquire initially.

Respects!


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## Hand Sword (May 18, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Not so necessarily HS. Striking arts are very much cyclical in-strike-out but because Aikido techniques are often longer - if I've got the lock on you, I can move you around for a bit until I decide where I'm gonna put you - often students are so preoccupied they forget to notice that the opponent has a hand free.
> 
> And while during tech training uke forgets this also for the sake of practising the technique, there's nothing to stop an advanced or more aware or experienced uke throwing a hook around with the free hand just to make the point [and obviously this *will* happen in randori]. I would do this often to show a student that either [as Jenna said] they have actually stopped and not realised, or their position in relation to the opponent is not correct and gives them too much visibility to the opponent or opportunity to be made a target. This is not a good idea for the aikidoka but constant movement and good ma ai are difficult concepts to acquire initially.
> 
> Respects!


 

Again, If it is a REAL sucker punch, guess what? All of your holds, techniques, or whatever, do go out the window. You'll never get to apply them, most likely. (you can't do much knocked out or extremely dazed)

Think about it like this... No matter what you are doing, a lock, hold, or walking along. If you get hit, reversed, or an escape is pulled off, it happened without you wanting or expecting it too. That's what a "sucker" whatever is. When this occurs it has done so. Nothing you can do except to try to re-establish control of the situation. Therefore, what you were doing or attempting to do has become irrelevant, the situation has changed, you lost control, and need to regain it.


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## MartialIntent (May 18, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Again, If it is a REAL sucker punch, guess what? All of your holds, techniques, or whatever, do go out the window. You'll never get to apply them, most likely. (you can't do much knocked out or extremely dazed)
> 
> Think about it like this... No matter what you are doing, a lock, hold, or walking along. If you get hit, reversed, or an escape is pulled off, it happened without you wanting or expecting it too. That's what a "sucker" whatever is. When this occurs it has done so. Nothing you can do except to try to re-establish control of the situation. Therefore, what you were doing or attempting to do has become irrelevant, the situation has changed, you lost control, and need to regain it.


I'm not certain what you're saying here HS? The original poster is asking how to defend against a sucker punch in the middle of his tech. Are you saying a sucker punch cannot be defended against? A sucker punch is one thrown in surprise yes but that doesn't preclude the student being aware of the possibility of it coming. I dunno about you but I have only ever fought guys with TWO hands and no more than that, LOL .

All I am saying here to Devin is and anyone else reading is that often due to the complexity of Aikido technique, the student's attention is taken away from the dangers: opponent's hands, feet whatever because they are so preoccupied with trying to get the kote gaeshi on right for example as Devin has alluded to.

A sucker punch is only that if the practitioner is not aware of the possibility of it connecting with them. You can throw sucker punches at me all day but if I am positioning myself correctly, they will be wasted. Furthermore, I will try to keep you moving around me as quickly as I can - your concomitant disorientation shouldn't be underestimated. If you have seen Aikido done well [and I certainly wouldn't claim that of myself], but if you have seen good Aikido you will appreciate that uke often has no recourse but to do as they are bid. From my experience as both uke and nage and for real too, there is little thought of clever sucker punches when you're not permitted to even lift your head above your waist.

Respects!


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## Hand Sword (May 18, 2006)

The point of a sucker punch is you are not aware of it--plain and simple. You can't position, or defend unless you're aware. If you were aware--it's not a sucker punch! You don't see them, you feel them. 

In regards to techniques, of whatever fashion..there are counters to them, or factors that occur during a fight that allow for their failure. You might think you have a good lock or hold on them, then bam! As a point my friend was bouncing the other night, and is a longtime Aikidoka. He was "walking" someone out with a "secure" hold, and whack! Got hit on the side of the head.  It happens, nothing you can do about it, just regain control.


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## MartialIntent (May 18, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> The point of a sucker punch is you are not aware of it--plain and simple. You can't position, or defend unless you're aware. If you were aware--it's not a sucker punch! You don't see them, you feel them.
> 
> In regards to techniques, of whatever fashion..there are counters to them, or factors that occur during a fight that allow for their failure. You might think you have a good lock or hold on them, then bam! As a point my friend was bouncing the other night, and is a longtime Aikidoka. He was "walking" someone out with a "secure" hold, and whack! Got hit on the side of the head. It happens, nothing you can do about it, just regain control.


OK, I think maybe we're getting lost in the semantics here, but that's ok, no harm done.

With respect to your friend the aikidoka, I would only say in a genuinely non-condescending way that there are "secure" holds and there are "secure" holds. And if he took one then perhaps that was not a watertight secure hold at all. 

And yes of course you are right, these things can happen, I'll be the first to admit that and hands up yes I have got caught before too. But I think there's a complacency which your anecdote illustrates and it's that there's only potential for sucker punches when the practitioner is remiss with their awareness. I mean, the person whom your friend was escorting off premises has a free hand or an unrestrained head, well, either lock that down too or make bl00dy certain you're not in the firing line.

And I certainly mean no disrespect here to you or your colleague. Far from it. I've been on the wrong end of these things too as the result of mistakes on my part. *Not* a problem with my Aikido in any way, shape or form but rather a problem with my awareness that's all.

Respects!


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## Hand Sword (May 18, 2006)

That's cool. Awareness is the key to it all. Lack of it leads to bad things. 

Just for the record, all holds have counters, and are not guaranteed, no matter how proficient one is at them. Many factors go on for real, that change from second to second--literally! And you have no control over them either. (that's what makes it fun--right?)

My responses have come from seeing a bunch of threads of how people will deal with "sucker attacks" doing this and doing that. Of course they are all "successful" methods too--LOL! It's very annoying to me having been a victim of sucker attacks, as well as a user of them. There is no defense other than their prevention by being aware in the first place. Even this doesn't assure their prevention. They still happen, nothing you can do except roll with them. Look at the Israeli's, they are more preventitive, and aware than anyone, and still bombings happen successfully.


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## MartialIntent (May 18, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> That's cool. Awareness is the key to it all. Lack of it leads to bad things.
> 
> Just for the record, all holds have counters, and are not guaranteed, no matter how proficient one is at them. Many factors go on for real, that change from second to second--literally! And you have no control over them either. (that's what makes it fun--right?)
> 
> My responses have come from seeing a bunch of threads of how people will deal with "sucker attacks" doing this and doing that. Of course they are all "successful" methods too--LOL! It's very annoying to me having been a victim of sucker attacks, as well as a user of them. There is no defense other than their prevention by being aware in the first place. Even this doesn't assure their prevention. They still happen, nothing you can do except roll with them. Look at the Israeli's, they are more preventitive, and aware than anyone, and still bombings happen successfully.


I take your points of course - all valid and with merit. To digress, I would say that the Israeli's have that singular problem that any nation dealing with paramilitaries has and that is the unknown and unpredictable nature of the attack which renders much of the prevention useless.

The situation with an opponent [or even multiple opponents] is different. Thai arts often use the eight limbs notion - the average fighter uses more like 4 or 5 and the punk in the parking lot probably 1 or 2. My point is that whatever the level of the opponent, he has *finite* resources when it comes to strikes and therefore to an extent [depending upon the practitioner] the sucker punch *can* be prepared for. To use your analogy, if the Palestinians only had 8 active terrorist operatives, then the Israeli's could man-mark them, put someone onto each of them, watch and follow every move and limit their freedom however possible. I digress but I hope that works for you 

Respects!


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## theletch1 (May 18, 2006)

Only the first punch can be considered a "sucker" punch.  After the first one has been thown you are VERY aware that there is a threat directed at you and you must therefore become aware of every aspect of your opponent.  Throwing another punch or attempting to ura a technique is always a possibility but is not, in my book, the definition of a "sucker" punch.


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## Hand Sword (May 18, 2006)

Exactly what I was saying! Thank you.


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## Hand Sword (May 18, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I take your points of course - all valid and with merit. To digress, I would say that the Israeli's have that singular problem that any nation dealing with paramilitaries has and that is the unknown and unpredictable nature of the attack which renders much of the prevention useless.
> 
> The situation with an opponent [or even multiple opponents] is different. Thai arts often use the eight limbs notion - the average fighter uses more like 4 or 5 and the punk in the parking lot probably 1 or 2. My point is that whatever the level of the opponent, he has *finite* resources when it comes to strikes and therefore to an extent [depending upon the practitioner] the sucker punch *can* be prepared for. To use your analogy, if the Palestinians only had 8 active terrorist operatives, then the Israeli's could man-mark them, put someone onto each of them, watch and follow every move and limit their freedom however possible. I digress but I hope that works for you
> 
> Respects!


 
O.k. The Israeli thing was a stretch, just trying to show a point that even the best preperation is not a guarantee. 

Preparation might come only if your somewhere and have committed yourself beforehand to fight. Maybe you caught someone from the corner of your eye or whatever, and you "position" yourself correctly. Aside from that, you got caught unaware and got hit. It happens to us all, we can't always be aware. 
With regards to techniques. If you are in the middle of when, there is no longer the element of surprise (meaning no "sucker" attack). You are already in an engagement. If you get caught in the middle of a technique, it's not a sucker attack, You just fell asleep at the wheel, didn't follow through, slipped, etc..

Does this work for you? (I'm rested now, so I can explain it better-LOL!)


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## MartialIntent (May 19, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> With regards to techniques. If you are in the middle of when, there is no longer the element of surprise (meaning no "sucker" attack). You are already in an engagement. If you get caught in the middle of a technique, it's not a sucker attack, You just fell asleep at the wheel, didn't follow through, slipped, etc..
> 
> Does this work for you? (I'm rested now, so I can explain it better-LOL!)


OK HS, I've forgot what this thread was supposed to be about now but you just know I can't let you away with this... when you are in the middle of a tech [particularly a protracted Aikido tech where the opponent can be flung around or played with for a bit until you decide where to put him] there STILL is the potential for a "sucker" punch and it arises out of complacency in the aikidoka - either too focussed on the environment / other opponents or unaware of where the current opponents limbs are or not maintaining proper distance or positioning relative to the opponent and his available weapons, I mean if I have control of your right arm and shoulder, the second I lapse concentration and allow you to come around me clockwise then bang! he's right there with the sucker punch [a surprise strike or whatever you want to call it] just exactly as he would have been at the outset. 

Though maybe you are arguing on the _definition_ of "sucker" punch? If so I defer to your semantic knowledge and concede the argument. If however you are referring to handling and or preparing for a surprise attack whether in or out of a technique then I am more than happy to oblige and argue, hehe. 

Respects!


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## Hand Sword (May 19, 2006)

If you are in a technique, it should not be a surprise, as you are in an engagement. You are mentally aware of being in a fight. If you get hit doing this... well......shame on you!

As was already said, a "sucker" punch is the opening hit, that you didn't see, you just felt.


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## MartialIntent (May 19, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> If you are in a technique, it should not be a surprise, as you are in an engagement.


Nope, don't agree. Just because you're in a technique doesn't preclude an element of surprise. In randori, I have used this too as uke on an overcomplacent or just plain cocky nage.

Respects!


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## theletch1 (May 19, 2006)

Ok, we've allowed the thread to drop into a long discussion of the definition of what a sucker punch is.  Does that make us all a bunch of suckers?  Let's get back to the original point of the thread...te waza and all the fine motor skills involved in these techniques.  My answer to the original question would be a definite yes...and um, no.:ultracool   Te waza such as shihonage do seem to have a lot of moving parts and, for the beginner, are very "fiddly".  Even for someone comfortable with the techs they can be a problem during the adrenaline rush of combat.  You simply have to train these techs with as much "real world" feel as possible to allow yourself to overcome the loss of fine motor skills during a true conflict.


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## Jenna (May 19, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> Ok, we've allowed the thread to drop into a long discussion of the definition of what a sucker punch is. Does that make us all a bunch of suckers? Let's get back to the original point of the thread...te waza and all the fine motor skills involved in these techniques. My answer to the original question would be a definite yes...and um, no.:ultracool Te waza such as shihonage do seem to have a lot of moving parts and, for the beginner, are very "fiddly". Even for someone comfortable with the techs they can be a problem during the adrenaline rush of combat. You simply have to train these techs with as much "real world" feel as possible to allow yourself to overcome the loss of fine motor skills during a true conflict.


Hear hear Jeff!  Too much talking and not enough walking, LOL  I think you're spot on and that the key really is practise no substitute because there's a definite FEEL to techniques and positioning that can only progress into the necessary improvisation and adaptation with sustained, determined and directed practise. So Jeff, no wave of your magic Aikido wand then or no downloading Aikido into your noggin as in the Matrix?? LOL. Wouldn't that be just great. Though I wonder if you could download any art into your head and muscle memories would you still pick your Nihon Goshin? Or would you be a big bad grappler or wing chun guy? Ha! now I really am off-thread. Oh well, them's the vagaries of a meandering mind probably 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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