# Because Okinawa is..



## 47MartialMan (Apr 11, 2005)

Because Okinawa is considered part of Japan's prefecture, is Karate still considered as a Japanese art?


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## Andrew Green (Apr 11, 2005)

Depends who you ask...

 Okinawa was not always a Japanese Prefecture.  It has a different history, dialect and culture.  At different points it was independant, Chinese, Japaneses, etc.

 So how about Hawaiian fire dancing and belly dancing, are those "American" arts?

 After the Native Americans found Columbus did the peace pipe and medicine wheel become European traditions?


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 11, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Depends who you ask...
> 
> Okinawa was not always a Japanese Prefecture. It has a different history, dialect and culture. At different points it was independant, Chinese, Japaneses, etc.
> 
> ...


Yes, I had a Hawaiian friend whose family believe that the US took over their homeland.

But as you stated it is still called Hawaiian Dancing, etc,,,,


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## arnisador (Apr 11, 2005)

Yes, just like a luau would be described as Hawaiian, not American, I'd call Karate as originally developed Okinawan, not Japanese.

However, I'd call Shotokan, Wado-Ryu, etc., Japanese.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 11, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yes, just like a luau would be described as Hawaiian, not American, I'd call Karate as originally developed Okinawan, not Japanese.
> 
> However, I'd call Shotokan, Wado-Ryu, etc., Japanese.


So the distinction is of place or the founder?


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## arnisador (Apr 11, 2005)

Well, it's only fair to give credit where it's due, no?

In addition, the Japanese styles of Karate are noticeably different from the Okinawan styles.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 11, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Well, it's only fair to give credit where it's due, no?
> 
> In addition, the Japanese styles of Karate are noticeably different from the Okinawan styles.


Yes, but others view TKD as Shotokan or Japanese based and not Korean. Is this fair to state that TKD is not Korean?

Are we speaking in terms of origin, place, or founder?


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## Andrew Green (Apr 12, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Yes, but others view TKD as Shotokan or Japanese based and not Korean. Is this fair to state that TKD is not Korean?
> 
> Are we speaking in terms of origin, place, or founder?


 Wonder how many Japanese practice TKD?

 Nah, usually that is just Shotokan practitioners that like to feel superior to others...


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Wonder how many Japanese practice TKD?


 Actually there are a large number of Japanese that practice TKD.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 12, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Actually there are a large number of Japanese that practice TKD.


 ok...  wonder how many would if it wasn't an Olympic sport...


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> ok...  wonder how many would if it wasn't an Olympic sport...


 
 I am wondering how many people world wide would study it if it wasn't an Olympic sport........


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 12, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Wonder how many Japanese practice TKD?
> 
> Nah, usually that is just Shotokan practitioners that like to feel superior to others...


Yes, and many other Japanese martial art practitioners.
Many people studied TKD long before it became a Olympic sport.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 12, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Yes, but others view TKD as Shotokan or Japanese based and not Korean. Is this fair to state that TKD is not Korean?
> 
> Are we speaking in terms of origin, place, or founder?



TKD _borrows _ alot from Shotokan in the same sense that Shotokan _borrowed _ alot from Okinawan-te.


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## clfsean (Apr 12, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> TKD _borrows _alot from Shotokan in the same sense that Shotokan _borrowed _alot from Okinawan-te.


_Borrowed_?? Wow... that's forgiving.. :boing2: 

IMHO & experience if it weren't for JMA, there'd be no KMA around today... Olympics or not.

RRouuselot ... please clean a space out in your PM box. I've got an off line question for you please.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 12, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> _Borrowed_?? Wow... that's forgiving.. :boing2:


 Now they are two very distinct arts, so I'd say it is accurate.

 Kung Fu began as a series of excercises taught to Monks by an "outsider", So should we say that Kung fu is not really Chinese?  No, it borrowed, branched off and found its own feet to stand on.  Same as TKD.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> _Borrowed_?? Wow... that's forgiving.. :boing2:
> 
> IMHO & experience if it weren't for JMA, there'd be no KMA around today... Olympics or not.
> 
> RRouuselot ... please clean a space out in your PM box. I've got an off line question for you please.


 
 Korean                                       =        Jap./Oki. 

     Tang Soo Do = Karate Do (old kara kanji)

     TKD = Shotokan

     Hapkido = Aikido (They use the exact same kanji to write it in Jap. And Kor.)

     Yudo = Judo

     Kumdo = Kendo


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Now they are two very distinct arts, so I'd say it is accurate.
> 
> Kung Fu began as a series of excercises taught to Monks by an "outsider", So should we say that Kung fu is not really Chinese? No, it borrowed, branched off and found its own feet to stand on. Same as TKD.


 
 Those monks expanded on what they were taught that went way beyond the depth and scope of the original art they were exposed to.

 The arts I listed in my last post have not.


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## clfsean (Apr 12, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Kung Fu began as a series of excercises taught to Monks by an "outsider", So should we say that Kung fu is not really Chinese? No, it borrowed, branched off and found its own feet to stand on. Same as TKD.


Well specifically you're talking about the legend of Tamo & the Songshan Shaolin Monks. Problem with that is there were already martial arts being practiced in China, Shuai Jiao as an example from the steppes of Mongolia, before then. That's one specific legend regarding it. 

Kung Fu is Chinese. 

Taekwondo is Korean-ized Shotokan.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 12, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> TKD = Shotokan


 Yup, that prooves it right there...?


 All countries have martial arts, Korea was no exception.  There was martial arts practiced there before the Japanese Occupation.

 TKD may have began as modified Shotokan, but since then it has changed.  It has different forms, different techniques and different competition rules.  It even went on to become an Olympic sport.

 While I don't agree with attempts to rewrite it's history, it does have one that goes beyond Shotokan.

 I'd say there are a lot more differences between Shotokan and TKD then Okinawan karate and Shotokan, and right up there with Okinawan karate and certain forms of Kung fu from which it originated.  Yet, Okinawan karate is Okinawan not Chinese, Shotokan is Japanese not Okinawan and TKD is Korean, not Japanese.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Yup, that prooves it right there...?
> 
> 
> All countries have martial arts, Korea was no exception. There was martial arts practiced there before the Japanese Occupation.
> ...


   Oh there is no doubt it has changed from Shotokan to whatever it is now, but for what reasons?

   Was the change motivated by martial necessity or by Ultra nationalistic pride?

    Okinawa te did not solely come from Chinese Chuan Fa. Chinese arts were blended with already existing Okinawan arts which is why outside of a few styles like Goju and Uechi you will find hardly any kata that are similar between Okinawan and Chinese arts.


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## arnisador (Apr 12, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> TKD _borrows _ alot from Shotokan in the same sense that Shotokan _borrowed _ alot from Okinawan-te.


 Yes, and I certainly consider TKD Korean despite this. Everything comes from _something_!


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 12, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> *Everything comes from something!*


How true!


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## Makalakumu (Apr 12, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> The arts I listed in my last post have not.



In which ways do you think they have not changed?

I see TKDists doing kicks that I never did in Shotokan.  TSD has such a wide blend of techniques that it clearly has outgrown its roots.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> 1) In which ways do you think they have not changed?
> 
> 2) I see TKDists doing kicks that I never did in Shotokan.
> 3) TSD has such a wide blend of techniques that it clearly has outgrown its roots.


  1) Yudo/Judo & Kumdo/Kendo for example follow the same basic rules. 
  2) I see kicks in Shotokan that I don't see in Okinawan styles.
 3) From what I have seen I think TSD has, to some extent, gone back to it's "Okinawan root" instead of sticking with the "Japanese" style of karate they were originally taught.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 12, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 3) From what I have seen I think TSD has, to some extent, gone back to it's "Okinawan root" instead of sticking with the "Japanese" style of karate they were originally taught.



There are two teachers of Uechi Ryu in my area.  One of them I know is very good.  Would you recommend looking into this art in order to explore the Okinawan - TSD connection?

I don't know much about Uechi Ryu, but I think that you mentioned that it was Okinawan...


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## Andrew Green (Apr 12, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> There are two teachers of Uechi Ryu in my area. One of them I know is very good. Would you recommend looking into this art in order to explore the Okinawan - TSD connection?
> 
> I don't know much about Uechi Ryu, but I think that you mentioned that it was Okinawan...


 Uechi ryu wouldn't have too much connection to Tang Soo Do, different branch of Okinawan Karate.

 You'd be better off looking at styles that trace back to Anko Itosu, and even other styles from the "Shuri" region.  Uechi ryu is much more kung-fuish.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> There are two teachers of Uechi Ryu in my area. One of them I know is very good. Would you recommend looking into this art in order to explore the Okinawan - TSD connection?
> 
> I don't know much about Uechi Ryu, but I think that you mentioned that it was Okinawan...


 Not really. I would say look into a traditional Okinawan Shorinryu type dojo. The kata will be mnore similar. 
 Where are you located by the way?


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## Makalakumu (Apr 12, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Not really. I would say look into a traditional Okinawan Shorinryu type dojo. The kata will be mnore similar.
> Where are you located by the way?



Superior, WI.  

The Uechi Ryu senior instructor up here died in a car crash.  It was a real tragedy.  Julius Scott was Old School and we all miss him.  His students carry on his tradition though.

My dojang is actually in the same building that Mr. Scott taught in for decades...


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## RRouuselot (Apr 12, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Superior, WI.
> 
> The Uechi Ryu senior instructor up here died in a car crash. It was a real tragedy. Julius Scott was Old School and we all miss him. His students carry on his tradition though.
> 
> My dojang is actually in the same building that Mr. Scott taught in for decades...


 I just sent you 3 names of folks to contact.
 Let me know how it goes.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 12, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I just sent you 3 names of folks to contact.
> Let me know how it goes.



Thank you, sir.  :asian:


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## arnisador (Apr 12, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Uechi ryu wouldn't have too much connection to Tang Soo Do, different branch of Okinawan Karate.
> 
> You'd be better off looking at styles that trace back to Anko Itosu, and even other styles from the "Shuri" region. Uechi ryu is much more kung-fuish.


 Yes, Uechi is very different from the others. It's Chinese roots are relatively recent. Intersting system, but it focuses on things like the one-knuckle punch and kicking with the knuckles of the toes (!) and isn't very similar at all to TKD and TSD.

 Do a search on Uechi in the Karate forum for more info.


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## TimoS (Apr 13, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> While I don't agree with attempts to rewrite it's history, it does have one that goes beyond Shotokan.



Okay, this got me curious. What part of TKD history do you think goes beyond Shotokan ? As I've understood it, the official rewritten history goes something like TKD being based Taekyon (not sure about the spelling), but that story apparently has quite a few holes in it


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## Andrew Green (Apr 13, 2005)

TimoS said:
			
		

> the official rewritten history goes something like TKD being based Taekyon (not sure about the spelling), but that story apparently has quite a few holes in it


 Well, there is very likely a Taekyon influence, but TKD does not date back 2000 years without any connection to Shotokan...

 The whole getting into the Olympics was a rather large thing that SHotokan had nothing to do with.

 A lot of Korean culture was lost durring the Japanese occupation, not just martial arts.  After the Japanese left they tried to rebuild there culture as best they could, using what was there from before that could be remembered and modifying what the Japanese had left behind to there culture.  

 Truthfully I don't think it is at all fair to tell a culture that they have no culture of there own because so many years ago they where occupied by another country / culture and had it forced on them.

 TKD is different, it was adapted from what could be remembered combined with what was available to create something unique, and Korean.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Well, there is very likely a Taekyon influence, but TKD does not date back 2000 years without any connection to Shotokan...


 
  The TKD I have seen in Korea and the US used Shotokan kata as it's core curriculum.

 In fact I saw very little training that didnt look like it came from shotokan. The one difference I did see was emphasis on kicks.and high ones at that. The kata were the same basic kata but done a little bouncier. Other than that there is not much difference except maybe the commands that were given in Korean.

   I have noticed also that some Koreans do NOT like it when you say something about TKD coming from Japan. Very sensitive historical point for them.

   Some have been down right ultra right wingers about TKD being a pure Korean art. Maybe they figure National Pride gives them the right to re-write some of their martial history.

   Hell the Japanese are just as badthey think Karate is a Japanese invention like Judo and Kendo. 

   Starting around the 1920s the Japanese Government forbid the use of the Okinawan languages (there are 3 main languages in Okinawa) and if caught using it you would be punished. 

   This might also be of interest, in Okinawa dojo there are not that many names for techniques. These names and instructions have been Japanified. Much of the etiquette in the dojo is also from Japanese culture and not Okinawa too.


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## TimoS (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Hell the Japanese are just as bad??they think Karate is a Japanese invention like Judo and Kendo.



But on the other hand, hasn't Okinawa been part of Japan for quite some time already ? Especially during the formation of well, at least most karate styles. So in that sense they can rightfully say that it is japanese invention  

I am, of course, aware that japanese and okinawan culture are quite separate from each other, but I just happen to be bored at work and this is an interesting topic to discuss


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

TimoS said:
			
		

> 1) But on the other hand, hasn't Okinawa been part of Japan for quite some time already ? Especially during the formation of well, at least most karate styles. So in that sense they can rightfully say that it is japanese invention
> 
> I am, of course, aware that japanese and okinawan culture are quite separate from each other, but I just happen to be bored at work and this is an interesting topic to discuss


 1) There was no knowledge of karate in Japan until 1921. Formal instruction didn't happen in Japan until several years later. Even then it was not all that popular and there were very few teachers from Okinawa in Japan at that time. Japanese had little or no influence on karate in Okinawa.


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## TimoS (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) There was no knowledge of karate in Japan until 1921. Formal instruction didn't happen in Japan until several years later. Even then it was not all that popular and there were very few teachers from Okinawa in Japan at that time. Japanese had little or no influence on karate in Okinawa.



Oh yes, that is of course true, I was just arguing (for arguments sake) that wasn't Okinawa part of Japan even prior to 1921, so in that sense it could be said to be japanese.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

TimoS said:
			
		

> Oh yes, that is of course true, I was just arguing (for arguments sake) that wasn't Okinawa part of Japan even prior to 1921, so in that sense it could be said to be japanese.


   If I am not mistaken they were officially a prefecture (state) of Japan in 1879 but were still a tributary state of China until the first part of the 1900s.


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## arnisador (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> If I am not mistaken they were officially a prefecture (state) of Japan in 1879 but were still a tributary state of China until the first part of the 1900s.


 How did this work? Didn't the Japanese depose the Okinawan royal family in the 1880s? Who paid the tribute to China, then--the Japanese govt.?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> How did this work? Didn't the Japanese depose the Okinawan royal family in the 1880s? Who paid the tribute to China, then--the Japanese govt.?


   As a result of the Japanese invasion of 1609 the king of Okinawa was taken to Edo (Tokyo) for his own protection, read held prisoner.   

 He was taken to some part of southern Japan and made to travel by land all the way to Tokyo. I have heard the trip took almost a year. 

  Evidently the Royal family of Okinawa returned but never reclaimed the thrown as they once had. However Okinawa was still kind of like Guam is to the US today.a protectorate, and then in 1879 became a prefecture. Oddly enough Okinawans still needed authorization to go to Japan and work even in the 1920s. Kind of odd for someone from the same country to have such a requirement.

   If my understanding is correct the Okianwan Gov. or possibly the Royal family was still paying tribute to the Chinese, most likely the Chinese Emperor.


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## bignick (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> The TKD I have seen in Korea and the US used Shotokan kata as it's core curriculum.
> 
> In fact I saw very little training that didnt look like it came from shotokan. The one difference I did see was emphasis on kicks.and high ones at that. The kata were the same basic kata but done a little bouncier. Other than that there is not much difference except maybe the commands that were given in Korean.


 Not to many do the Japanese forms anymore, but there are some taekwondo schools that do. Although the palgwe series, the firt ones the WTF created, resemble very strongly some of the Japanese forms. I had a nice little suprise watching my jujutsu instructor test some of his karate students and a lot of the time I had a pretty good guess as to how the kata went.  The movements were generally similar though executed with a different emphasis and style.



			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I have noticed also that some Koreans do NOT like it when you say something about TKD coming from Japan. Very sensitive historical point for them.
> 
> Some have been down right ultra right wingers about TKD being a pure Korean art. Maybe they figure National Pride gives them the right to re-write some of their martial history.


 Hear it all the time. "Tae Kwon Do is a 2000 year old Korean martial art...blah, blah, blah" Just smile and nod, some people need their illusions.



			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Hell the Japanese are just as badthey think Karate is a Japanese invention like Judo and Kendo.


  I don't doubt it.


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## arnisador (Apr 13, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> As a result of the Japanese invasion of 1609 the king of Okinawa was taken to Edo (Tokyo) for his own protection, read held prisoner.
> 
> He was taken to some part of southern Japan and made to travel by land all the way to Tokyo. I have heard the trip took almost a year.
> 
> ...


 Interesting! I had heard that they were relocated a few years after the 1879 action, and I knew they had been under Japanese control for a long time before that and that they had always been caught between China and Japan, but I hadn't known that the royal family had first been evacuated 400 years ago! I need to find an accessible history of Okinawa--"Okinawan History for Karateka" or something.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 13, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I need to find an accessible history of Okinawa--"Okinawan History for Karateka" or something.


 Le tme look around and see if I can find something in English


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## RBaddorf (Apr 14, 2005)

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/003/index_e.html


Official Okinawa web site.


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## RBaddorf (Apr 14, 2005)

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/

Martial Arts portion of official Okinawa site.  Has interesting history section.

Enjoy.  Notice Okinawan 10th Dans wear only 3 stripes on their belts (if they wear any at all).


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## RBaddorf (Apr 14, 2005)

*Next *[1]* [2]*







*Commemorating the establishment of the basic kata of karate-do (1937)*
(Front, from right) Chojun Miyagi, Chomo Hanashiro, Kentsu Yabu, Chotoku Kyan(Back, from right) Genwa Nakasone, Choshin Chibana, Choryo Maeshiro, Shinpan Shiroma.It is said that the traditional Okinawan martial arts called _Te_ and Chinese _Kenpo_ were blended together and developed into _karate_. _Karate_ later underwent significant developments in Okinawa based on several factors, including the policy of banning weapons following the political centralization of King _Shoshin _(1477-1526) and the Satsuma Clan's invasion of Ryukyu (1609).



*Chotoku Kyan (2nd from left, 1941)*It later developed further through a process of systematization into 'Modern _Karate_', which actually had a lot to do with the efforts of the men known as the _Chuko no so_ (The Revivers), including Sokon Matsumura (1828-1898) of the _Shuri-te_ style, Kosaku Matsumora (1829-1898) of the _Tomari-te_ style and Kanryo Higaonna (1853-1915) of the _Naha-te_ style.

In 1908, 'The 10 Articles of _Karate_' prepared by Anko Itosu were submitted to the Educational Affairs Section of Okinawa Prefecture. After that, _karate_ started being introduced into the school gymnastics curriculum, thus acquiring broad accessibility, in contrast to the previously secret principles of _Isshi-soden_ (the complete transmission of a _ryu_'s techniques only to your heir).
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









*MOVIE 3:03*






*Real Player : narrow band width (26.5mb)
Real Player : broad band with (68.8mb)*









*Windows Media Player : narrow band width(11.4mb)
Windows Media Player : broad band with (21.5mb)**Click here for Plug-In*


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

Ok here is the problem I have with the present mainstream version of karate history.

 Did all karate come from the Itosu/ Sakugawa tode line of karate? 

 Answer: No

 So why is it 99% of the karate history today is written as such?

 Answer: poor research or lack of motivation to do "other" research.

 There were other prominent karateka around at the same time.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 16, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> There were other prominent karateka around at the same time.


name a few


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## TimoS (Apr 16, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> name a few



Apparently there aren't many currently known karate "ancestors" who were around when "tode" Sakugawa was around but other contemporaries of Itosu was e.g. Kanryo Higashionna, although Itosu seems to have been somewhat older


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> name a few


   I always like they way you ask your questions with such politeness. 



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Kogusuku Uekata

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Bushi Maezato

   3)[font=&quot]      [/font]Seijin Tanmei

   4)[font=&quot]      [/font]Karyu Uku

   5)[font=&quot]      [/font]Tokumine Peichin

   6)[font=&quot]      [/font]Kosaku Matumora

   7)[font=&quot]      [/font]Maeda Peichin

   8)[font=&quot]      [/font]Shiroma Gusukuma

   9)[font=&quot]      [/font]Chunna Tanmei

   10)[font=&quot]  [/font]Bushi Kuniyoshi


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

TimoS said:
			
		

> Apparently there aren't many currently known karate "ancestors" who were around when "tode" Sakugawa was around but other contemporaries of Itosu was e.g. Kanryo Higashionna, although Itosu seems to have been somewhat older


 Actually some of the people I listed below were alive at the same time as he was.


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## TimoS (Apr 16, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Kogusuku Uekata
> 
> 2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Bushi Maezato
> 
> ...



Most of those are quite unknown names. How many of them have their own lineage that still exists ?


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## TimoS (Apr 16, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Actually some of the people I listed below were alive at the same time as he was.



I don't doubt that. I was just looking it up from one book that I happened to have open and there weren't too many listed


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## RRouuselot (Apr 16, 2005)

TimoS said:
			
		

> Most of those are quite unknown names. How many of them have their own lineage that still exists ?


   During their day most people on that list knew one kata maybe two and that was their style*, and yet some of them were major players in Okinawan MA. 





 *Kusanku for example is said to have only taught one kata, the one that bears his name.


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## roninrogue (Apr 24, 2005)

One of the names you fail to mention, not so much you as maybe your text.

Is Master Uechi Kanei, the man that started the Okinawan style of Karated known as Uechi-Ryu. That was where I recieved my beginning formal martial arts and have wondered since I am sure Master Kanei is now deceased from age.

Would still be interested to know what dojos are still operating and teaching same. Or how well as a martial art it is surviving. A person last fall lamented that Uechi Ryu was an almost vanishing martial art.


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## arnisador (Apr 24, 2005)

I studied it briefly in Providence, RI. See http://www.uechi-ryu.com/ and also search this site for more info.

I think his grandson is now the head, and of course there are splinter orgs. It's still a lesser known style, but not in any danger of dying out I think.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 24, 2005)

roninrogue said:
			
		

> 1)One of the names you fail to mention, not so much you as maybe your text.
> 
> 2)Is Master Uechi Kanei, the man that started the Okinawan style of Karated known as Uechi-Ryu. That was where I recieved my beginning formal martial arts and have wondered since I am sure Master Kanei is now deceased from age.
> 
> 3)Would still be interested to know what dojos are still operating and teaching same. Or how well as a martial art it is surviving. A person last fall lamented that Uechi Ryu was an almost vanishing martial art.


 1)I didnt forget him but purposely left him and several others out since there is extensive information written about them, their training, and where they receive their training. 

    2)Actually it was Kanyei's father Kanbun that started Uechi Ryu, the father died in 1948.

 3)There are a lot of Uechi ryu dojo..do an internet search and you can find them. Start with George E. Matteson in the US..........


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## searcher (Apr 25, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I always like they way you ask your questions with such politeness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What about Seisho Aragaki?  He taught many of the masters of today's karate style: Kanryo Higaonna, Funakoshi, Chitose, Mabuni.   Many consider him to be the premier martial artist of his day, but he is so often overlooked.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 25, 2005)

Here is something odd....... to date I have yet to see a photo/drawing of Funakoshi's teacher Azato. We see plenty on Itosu........just struck me as odd for all the he is mentioned.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 25, 2005)

Could it be that not all instructors take pictures or think of taking them? or that there wasn't a camera easliy available/aceesible? Weren't cameras a rare object to have?


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## searcher (Apr 25, 2005)

I almost forgot Nakaima of Ryuei-ryu.   A closed family style until the 70's.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 25, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Could it be that not all instructors take pictures or think of taking them? or that there wasn't a camera easliy available/aceesible? Weren't cameras a rare object to have?


 Re-read my post. It says photo or drawing. You would think if there is a photo of Sakugawa tode floating around then why not Azato........


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## RRouuselot (Apr 25, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> I almost forgot Nakaima of Ryuei-ryu.   A closed family style until the 70's.


 There is actually a lot of info on Nakaima and Ryuei-Ryu


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 25, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Re-read my post. It says photo or drawing. You would think if there is a photo of Sakugawa tode floating around then why not Azato........


So are you saying that he was a fictious charecter?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 25, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> So are you saying that he was a fictious charecter?


 If I thought so I would have said so.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 25, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> 1) What about Seisho Aragaki?
> 2) He taught many of the masters of today's karate style: Kanryo Higaonna, Funakoshi, Chitose, Mabuni.
> Many consider him to be the premier martial artist of his day, but he is so often overlooked.


 1) Yes, another "unsung hero" of his day. I have found a few drawings of him and bits of info but he is rarely mentioned. 
 2) Which is why I find it odd he has not been mentioned more often.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 26, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> If I thought so I would have said so.


It just sounded like an implication when drawings or pics are not available.


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## The Kai (Apr 26, 2005)

I think that you need to realize during ww2 the allied forces intent on okinwan as a landing spot shelled, mortered and f**ked up Okinwan.  There are Photos of shurie looking like a field that was thourghly and crudely plowed.  The Castle was obliterated.  With complete devestation of the town of Shuri what record would survive???


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 26, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I think that you need to realize during ww2 the allied forces intent on okinwan as a landing spot shelled, mortered and f**ked up Okinwan. There are Photos of shurie looking like a field that was thourghly and crudely plowed. The Castle was obliterated. With complete devestation of the town of Shuri what record would survive???


Does this imply to photos of people?

Lucky some survived


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## RRouuselot (Apr 26, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Does this imply to photos of people?


 No, you see when a building or house blows up onl the photographs of famous karateka remain.......


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## RRouuselot (Apr 26, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I think that you need to realize during ww2 the allied forces intent on okinwan as a landing spot shelled, mortered and f**ked up Okinwan. There are Photos of shurie looking like a field that was thourghly and crudely plowed. The Castle was obliterated. With complete devestation of the town of Shuri what record would survive???


 
   I have a book of photographs taken in Okinawa during and right after the battle of Okinawa.
 You would not believe the destruction. I am surprised a single photograph or document survived.
 However, like with much of karate history on Okinawa, there is/was always verbal transmission.


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## The Kai (Apr 26, 2005)

From the Photos I've seen the Village was reduced to a scarred, burned and pitted field.  Lierally according to soldiers account only 2 sepaerate walls survivesd  from the entire village!!I would hate to guess at what Karate artifacts never made it.  There are photos posted on the "net-look at em and see for yourself


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 27, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I have a book of photographs taken in Okinawa during and right after the battle of Okinawa.
> You would not believe the destruction. I am surprised a single photograph or document survived.
> However, like with much of karate history on Okinawa, there is/was always verbal transmission.


With only verbal transmission, how can one bleieve or prove that such a person existed?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 27, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> With only verbal transmission, how can one bleieve or prove that such a person existed?


   Corroboration from several sources. 
 Do you actually think about the questions you ask before you write them?


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 27, 2005)

Lets say one person said so. Then anither took it off that one. Then two more took it of those. Does the person still exist?


You say Corroboration from several sources. My own situation has the same. Yet you doubt me.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 27, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1)Lets say one person said so. Then anither took it off that one. Then two more took it of those. Does the person still exist?
> 
> 
> 2)  My own situation has the same. Yet you doubt me.


 
       1)Reliable sources have corroborated his existanceend of discussion. 

       2)So you say. However, you have yet to cough up a certificate you claim to have that *might* lend some credibility to your story, you claim to have trained in a style that doesnt exist, you claim to have trained from an Okinawan and yet when you gave his name it was two Japanese family names, not Okinawan, and also claimed it was his first and last name which is ridiculous, when I pointed this out you then claimed he went by several names as did your other teacher that supposedly ripped you off and THEN changed tack and claimed you were a victim  Each time a discrepancy in your story was shown to you you then tweaked your story to go in a different direction.....sounds like BS to me.


 So your situation with your bogus teachers is not even close that of the aforementioned.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 27, 2005)

_This has been an informative thread for the most part_

_Mod. Note._ 
Please, return to the original topic.
Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator-


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 27, 2005)

So the Japanese took karate as they took Okinawa?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 27, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> _This has been an informative thread for the most part_
> 
> _Mod. Note._
> Please, return to the original topic.
> ...


 I thought so as well until 47MartialMan decided to go on a petty vendetta and pick issue.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 27, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> So the Japanese took karate as they took Okinawa?


   You questions seem to be more like comments that try to agitate or bait. 

   Maybe you should ask something that looks like a sincere question.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 27, 2005)

I was just wondering how, per Okinawan history, that sources are creditable without documentation and photographs?.

In relation to the same nowadays?

Some Hawaiians beleive that the US "took" Hawaii, but yet things on those islands still remain indigenious. Whereas when Japan gained control over Okinawa, are things still indigenious there? Perhaps no longer Karate?

Not this is not a rant about Japan or the Japanese people. It is to come to an understanding that Okinawa's culture still Okinwan per most part, or they have much Japanese influences nowadays?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 27, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1)I was just wondering how, per Okinawan history, that sources are creditable without documentation and photographs?.
> 
> In relation to the same nowadays?
> 
> ...


    1)There is documentation in several books of the Azato
 's existence. The man was friends with Itosu, a well noted and well documented karate figure, Azato was also the teacher of several well noted karateka. This FACT has been documented and corroborated by respected individuals. I mentioned it was odd there were no photographs or drawings as an observation..not as a witch hunt. I have yet to see a photograph of Mosesso by your logic it might not have existed. 

 2)There are very few pure Hawaiians left, much of the Hawaiian culture has been infused with western culture. There is however some very Hawaiian culture still around. Okinawans, unlike Hawaiians and the west, have coexisted with Japan and China for centuries. There are still many indigenous things in Okinawa, karate being one of them. If you would like to more information perhaps you should go there.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 27, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> So the Japanese took karate as they took Okinawa?


   You really need to study your history on this matter before we can have any sort of discussion. I feel your being quite selfish asking me to bring you up to speed on this because you havent/cant/wont research it yourself.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 27, 2005)

Nah, just posting ponerance in relation to the thread.


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## arnisador (Apr 27, 2005)

I don't think the Japanese took Karate...I don't think that that was something they wanted.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 27, 2005)

What i meant by took it does many Jaoanese Karate schools show  homeage orl ineage to Okinawa?


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## arnisador (Apr 27, 2005)

I guess all Japanese _karate_ schools are derived from Okinawan systems, if karate is used in the strict sense (not as in TKD is "Korean karate"). I'm not sure about "homage" though; I guess I'd say that in my experience, Japanese karateka don't unduly emphasize the Okinawan connection, but I've never heard one deny it.

I don't think I quite understand what you're getting at with these questions?


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 27, 2005)

I mean, could it actually be true that Karate was not Okinawan given, at least, by the very essence of its name? In what other manner, per even any particular technique or method, could it even be indigenious of Okinawa and not practiced other than on Okinawa? So given certain accounts, can it be Okinawan or of Okinawa? Of meaning just happened to be there, by incident, but not actually developed there.

The notion of it being developed by peasants to over-throw a magnificent armed force? Or the notion that it was practice by the island nobels, as though they were rich or wealthy without mainland exchange. Thus exchange was on other things.
Could it be, that Okinawa, was a "mutual" place where China and Japan could still do trade, etc., without "losing face" via direct exchange? Thus so, such a mutual place could have only transmitted information that wasn't truely developed there, per only passed on?

And without documents or other materialistic proof, can it be stated that such was developed there or that certain people had actually existed there?
Could it be a hoax that it was just another martial art that its actual history or ties are shrouded without the concrete burden of proof that it had actually developed there. And that certain persons tied into this had been fabricated or much detail is not accredited.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 28, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]I mean, could it actually be true that Karate was not Okinawan given, at least, by the very essence of its name? In what other manner, per even any particular technique or method, could it even be indigenious of Okinawa and not practiced other than on Okinawa? So given certain accounts, can it be Okinawan or of Okinawa? Of meaning just happened to be there, by incident, but not actually developed there.
> 
> 2) The notion of it being developed by peasants to over-throw a magnificent armed force? Or the notion that it was practice by the island nobels, as though they were rich or wealthy without mainland exchange. Thus exchange was on other things.
> Could it be, that Okinawa, was a "mutual" place where China and Japan could still do trade, etc., without "losing face" via direct exchange? Thus so, such a mutual place could have only transmitted information that wasn't truely developed there, per only passed on?
> ...



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]As I said before, do your own research and you might come up with the answers to your questions.

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Again, do your research and you will find the peasant theory to be inaccurate. 

   3)[font=&quot]      [/font]There are many documents that discuss karate, its beginnings, and subsequent development. There is plenty of information in both Japanese and English if you actually look for it you can find it. I would post it but I have posted material on this subject countless times over the years on various boards and feel no need to do it again just for you. Do some searching on your own.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 28, 2005)

Well, it wasn't directed to you to answer.

And, if you take such as truths, then I have understood you as something different.

And, yes, I have perfrom much research and there are many diffferent accounts whereas can any be truely accurate.

And, I was checking to see if anyone may have something else to say differently.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 28, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Well, it wasn't directed to you to answer.
> 
> 1) And, if you take such as truths, then I have understood you as something different.
> 
> ...


 1) you have no idea of what I take or don't take as truths.....I have researched this in English as well as Japanese, seen rare documents on the subject as well, talked to many highly resepected people that have cunducted extensive research in the field on this topic........and you have done what?....a GOGGLE search? 
  2) See my first reply.
  3) yeah right...


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 28, 2005)

1.) You have no idea of who I am. What I know or learned, and you take the presumption that I had googled. (And I did state:And, *if you take* such as truths, then I have understood you as something different.)


2.) Rare documents dateing to when?

3.) And I didnt ask you to post info that you may had on other forums countless times. Whereas every forum there is the evidence of repeated posts/thread/information anyway. So if you dont desire to post info, then let others reply.



Now, lets see, where was I:

Yes, if Okinawa considered Japan mowadays, could the inhabitants still be true Okinawans?

Likewise, Italian/Irish, etc, being born, say for instance in the US. Are they Americans or truely Italians/Irish, etc.,


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## RRouuselot (Apr 28, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1.) You have no idea of who I am. What I know or learned, and you take the presumption that I had googled. (And I did state:And, *if you take* such as truths, then I have understood you as something different.)
> 
> 
> 2.) Rare documents dateing to when?
> ...



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]name your sources..your Okinawan teacher.:rofl: 

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Go to Hokamas museum in Okinawa and have a look for yourself.

   3)[font=&quot]      [/font]No, you bluntly asked for information and I posted it on more than a few occasions. 

   4)[font=&quot]      [/font]You were trolling.

   5)[font=&quot]      [/font]Go there and ask an Okinawan if they are Japanese or Okinawanoh but thats right you studied from an Okinawan  didnt you

   6)[font=&quot]      [/font]Okinawans have been proven to be a genetically different race. I have also posted this as well as a lot of other facts about Okinawa, karate etc. on this board as well as E-Budo and other boards, I will not waste my time or energy re-posting it for the likes of you.


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## The Kai (Apr 28, 2005)

47 Martial Man.  Pick up a copy of Shotokan's secret by Bruce Clayton, allthough it is a little pro Funakoshi-it will give you a better picture of the political forces that gave rise to Karate.

As I understand it once TE made it to Japan, the japanese did everything in thier power to tweak the history a tad.  Not so much to elimante any connection to Okinwa or China but to kinda gloss over the history


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 28, 2005)

Thanks to all who posted informatively.

I started the thread: 
Because Okinawa is considered part of Japan's prefecture, is Karate still considered as a Japanese art? 

This post had started out of a recent conversation between a student of mine and me. I started his training and/or exposure to martial arts when he was at the age of ten. During my teachings and from past experiences, I told him, like all of my students, to not take anything for mere granted, even such as my own words. Studying Buddhism, and taking a sample from the Kalama Sutra, I wanted my students to be aware of many things that were not instilled to me from a couple of my previous/first instructors. Later, I had finally found three instructors, and at different time intervals, which had a better outlook on martial arts. Thus, using their influences has had me to present the same areas onto my students, per even philosophies. 

Back to this particular student as afore-mentioned. After he had graduated from high school, which no one but I thought he would, he was confused on what to do with his new lifestyle. I had suggested for him to join a military arm force (pre- Iraq War). Thinking that he was going to sign up in either the Navy or the Air Force, he had surprised me, and others, with his decision to join the Marines. He called me with excitement and stated that he was in Japan. To my surprise, I had replied Was he in Tokyo? To his surprise, he had listened to as I did not pronounce it as Toh-key-oh. 

With other exchanges of greeting, he had stated that he was on Okinawa and he wanted to study Okinawan Karate. I had replied; How could he truly study Okinawan Karate? By the sound of his confusion, I had informed him that perhaps Karates very name is Japanese or Japanese influenced. And that being part of Japan, can there still be a true Okinawan art? Giving example on how Italians/Irish, etc, in the US, can not truly be considered as the countries of origins. This meaning, per example food, Italian or Chinese food in the US cannot be considered as true food based in those countries. 

Also, the display of other countries flags in a particular country as a symbol of respect or homage. Speaking to other martial artists with schools outside of the US, many do not display another countrys flag. And if such the case to pay homage, take Tae Kwon Do for example, (not bashing TKD), then why only display the Korean flag in an American school? Why not display a Jap one next to the Korean one as some TKD was influenced by the Japs? Further, way stop there? Why not display Chinas flag next to the Jap flag, because Okinawans received many of the foundations of their art from mainland China? 

So to label the origin of something is because of its true origins, its exact location, or for intrigue? 

Because Okinawa is considered part of Japan's prefecture, is Karate still considered as a Japanese art? Thus, can Okinawans truely teach Karate?


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## RRouuselot (Apr 28, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> ............. During my teachings and from past experiences, I told him, like all of my students, to not take anything for mere granted, even such as my own words. *Studying Buddhism, and taking a sample from the Kalama Sutra,* *I wanted my students to be aware of many things that were not instilled to me from a couple of my previous/first instructors*. ..........


 :rofl:
   This is why I and some other people think you are full of BS. If your teachers instilled in you something from the Kama Sutra I would be worried. 
 The "kama sutra" is a book on Tantric Sex.....not Buddhism!

  :rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 28, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> This is why I and some other people think you are full of BS. If your teachers instilled in you something from the Kama Sutra I would be worried.
> The "kama sutra" is a book on Tantric Sex.....not Buddhism!
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl:


No No no...this is why mods intervene.
You go off on a tangent and off topic.
And as though you actually know me.

I DID NOT SAY that my instructors had instilled any Buddhist practices per the Kalama Sutra...which I wonder if you know what it is.

It is the principle(s) of certain Buddhist studies, from MY own curiousity. However, the principle to go forth and learn other things were instilled to me from select teachers.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 28, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> This is why I and some other people think you are full of BS. If your teachers instilled in you something from the Kama Sutra I would be worried.
> The "kama sutra" is a book on Tantric Sex.....not Buddhism!
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl:


You always take my wording and posts out ofY context. As though youre so "high and mighty"...I did not state Kama sutra,,,,I spelled it Kalama Sutra.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 28, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> You always take my wording and posts out ofY context. As though youre so "high and mighty"...I did not state Kama sutra,,,,I spelled it Kalama Sutra.


 Actually I liked your original post before the edit...it shows the real you:
   Hello RRouuselot,

 47MartialMan has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Because Okinawa is.. - in the Karate forum of MartialTalk.Com.

  This thread is located at:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23354&goto=newpost

  Here is the message that has just been posted:
  ***************
*Youre stupid...I did not state Kama sutra,,,,I speleed it Kalama Sutra moron*
  ***************


  There may be other replies also, but you will not receive any more notifications until you visit the forum again.

  Yours,
  MartialTalk.Com team 


  I knew you meant this Sutra........but wuth your "gift" for spelling who can be sure what you really mean........

*Kalama Sutra* 

_"Rely not on the teacher/person, but on the teaching. Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the_ 
_spirit of the words. Rely not on theory, but on experience.Do not believe in anything simply because you_ 
_have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do_ 
_not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is_ 
_written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and_ 
_elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is_ 
_conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."_ 

*- the Buddha*


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 28, 2005)

Hmmn.....so you think that is amusing......

The "real" me.....is knowing the "real" you.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 28, 2005)

I bet you just googled it.....


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## RRouuselot (Apr 28, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> I bet you just googled it.....


   Uh actually no.my wifes father is a Buddhist Priest.there are literally 100s of books around the house on Buddhism, most of which I have read.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 28, 2005)

well you just a smart fellow...give yourself a cookie


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 28, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I knew you meant this Sutra........but wuth your "gift" for spelling who can be sure what you really mean........


Yeah, yea "high and mighty" never make a spelling error....Mr. Perfect......Mr. Know-It-All.....Mr. Debunker.........Mr Off Topic....


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## RRouuselot (Apr 28, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Yeah, yea "high and mighty" never make a spelling error....Mr. Perfect......Mr. Know-It-All.....Mr. Debunker.........Mr Off Topic....


 
 i neever mayke speleeing erorrrs......I'n purfuct.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 28, 2005)

You sure are.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 28, 2005)

*MOD NOTE*
Thread closed pending review.


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