# Learning the Language?



## DatFlow (Apr 6, 2008)

I see almost everyone here but myself know's exactly what the names of their forms are, some korean words, and much more! I was just wondering how you guys got to this level? was it just by moving through the ranks and hering the words so much? I took a short look into the writing and reading of the language, i just need to know how you guys learned what you NEED to know... lol

Thanks
-Picc


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## MBuzzy (Apr 6, 2008)

Personal opinion is that the key to learning all of these things is simply dedication.  If you WANT to learn, you'll pick it up on your way.  The speed that you get it just depends how much you want it and how much time you have to devote to it.  Most of this stuff is written down somewhere (the intellectual kinds of stuff).  The physical stuff you HAVE to go to class often....just remember to ask lots of questions.

Being on here is definately a start.  This is where you can pick up some of the breadth of what's out there and see all of the many conflicting perspectives.

As you look around here and advance in your career, you'll notice a lot of people who have more knowledge of the language, written language, culture, etc.  This either involves extreme dedication or extenuating circumstances.  Personally, I lived in Korea for a year, so I learned a lot of the language, proper pronunciation, and studied the written and spoken language while I was there, so there's some of it.  I'd say just be patient and you'll get to it all eventually.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 7, 2008)

Well, really, it's use, as far as I've seen. 

Class number one, you've just gotten you're white belt, you're shown through basic stretching exercises, and you repeat after the instructor, or whoever he has helping you, "hana, tul, set, net, tasa, yasa, ilgop, yodol, ahop, yol," as you do them. No counting in English. Then, as you learn techniques, you're presented with the Korean term first, with an English translation to help you remember. Every time commands are called out, they're in Korean, or at least with Korean involved ("Face sam dan, sam dan dol kyung ret!" "Fighting stance, choon bee!" etc.) 

So you learn them like you learn words naturally, by connecting the word with a concept learned experientially.

EDIT: Oh, and there's also the gup manual, from which you get tested on terms (anatomy, philosophical concepts, etc.) in Korean for pre-tests, dan tests, and dan recertifications.


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## IcemanSK (Apr 7, 2008)

I agree with MBuzzy: it's a matter of really wanting to learn. One can learn anything they are dedicated to learn. One hard part with language is actually hearing it. Korean is not a language that is spoken everywhere. Too many of us get an "Americanized version" of it, instead of the real thing.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 7, 2008)

Altho' of course in my case the language is Japanese, the principles of learning are still the same.  If you want to learn the kata names then get your sensei (sorry, I'm not sure what the Korean equivalent is for 'teacher') to write them down for you.  What worked for me was to copy them out a few times, then try to write them from memory.

EDIT:  Sorry had to cut that abruptly short due to work-related matters .

As I was saying, try to reproduce the list from memory, only giving in and referring to the original when you're really stuck.  After a bit of that, you'll find that you'll be able to write the list totally from memory.  Next, try and recall and write the names in a random order (otherwise you might find that you'll only be able to remember them in sequence ).

The biggest key to all of this is _writing_ the words down - recall is something like 1000-2000 times better if you engage in this process.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Apr 7, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I agree with MBuzzy: it's a matter of really wanting to learn. One can learn anything they are dedicated to learn. One hard part with language is actually hearing it. Korean is not a language that is spoken everywhere. Too many of us get an "Americanized version" of it, instead of the real thing.


That is a big concern, only getting an "Americanized" version. Our gup manuals were approved by CJN C.S. Kim, who, naturally, speaks Korean, but even then it's spelled phonetically, not phonemically according to Korean, which has many different sounds than English. 

What I do is just try to listen to Master Kim when he speaks, or to those sa bom nims who spend a lot of time around him, to pick up a more Korean pronunciation.


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## MBuzzy (Apr 7, 2008)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> That is a big concern, only getting an "Americanized" version. Our gup manuals were approved by CJN C.S. Kim, who, naturally, speaks Korean, but even then it's spelled phonetically, not phonemically according to Korean, which has many different sounds than English.
> 
> What I do is just try to listen to Master Kim when he speaks, or to those sa bom nims who spend a lot of time around him, to pick up a more Korean pronunciation.


 
This is a great way to learn the stuff and be accurate.  Find a native speaker and ask them.  Another way, if you don't have access, is to learn to real Hangul (the written Korean language).  Just learning it will teach you the sounds that they DO have in Korean, so it will be easier to figure out what stuff sounds like.  If you can find the Korean spelling, then you'll get it much much closer.


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## howard (Apr 7, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> ...get your sensei (sorry, I'm not sure what the Korean equivalent is for 'teacher') to write them down for you.



Hi Sukerkin,

The Korean equivalent is written with the same Chinese characters:

&#20808;&#29983;

The Korean pronunciation of these characters is transliterated _seon saeng_ under the system published by the South Korean government. So, you can see that the pronunciation is similar to the Japanese. The characters have a quite figurative meaning. It's something like "one who has walked the path before you" - in other words, a teacher.



Sukerkin said:


> EDIT:  Sorry had to cut that abruptly short due to work-related matters .



It's always a buzzkill when that happens. There ought to be a law against work getting in the way of leisure during working hours.

:wink:

Take care.


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## MBuzzy (Apr 7, 2008)

Howard,

Does your system use &#49440;&#49373;&#45784; (seon saeng nim) in reference to martial arts instructors or are you referring to normal teachers/professors?  I don't read Hanja, only Hangul, so I'm not sure of the translation for those characters to Korean.  I assume that the Korean pronunciation is the same as it is for &#49440;&#49373;?

What would be the Hanja equivalent for Martial Arts instructor (&#49324;&#48276;&#45784?  

I've actually never seen Koreans use the Hanja to refer to these.  Does your style do this?  If so, which style?

Sukerkin, 

What I'm referring to....In the Korean language, there are many different words for teacher.  Seon Saeng (&#49440;&#49373;&#45784 refers to a school teacher or professor, while Sa Bom (&#49324;&#48276;&#45784 refers to a martial arts instructor.   

Does the same apply in Japanese?

Datflow, excuse my off topic comments....

Clarification....This is what I was referring to.  The Korean language is very complex and uses both Korean characters (Hangul) and Chinese (Hanja).  Generally the Hanja characters (the name for chinese characters when used in Korea....in Japan it is called Kanji) are used only in scholarly publications and some newspapers.  The average high school student must learn around 10,000 chinese characters in addition to the Korean vocabulary.  College students will learn many many more.

The term Seon Saeng is basically another way of saying "sir," "mister," or "teacher."  Whereas the term Sa Bom refers specifically to a Martial Arts instructor.  The nim (&#45784 is just a "modifier" if you will simply to show respect to the person you're talking to (used when a younger person speaks to an older person).

This is the kind of stuff that you will generally only learn in a place like this or through personal study.  If you intend to stay in the art for a long time and get truly serious, you may find yourself around older Koreans and this kind of stuff comes in handy.  Just a Korean phrase book or Korean/English dictionary helps a lot sometimes, although it will not have any MA specific terms in it usually.  As we've said, it is just a matter of how much you want to put into it.  You can obviously still be a GREAT martial artist without knowing any of this stuff.


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## wade (Apr 7, 2008)

If nothing else go to a good bookstore and get the "Mastering Korean" set by Barron's. It has a book and tapes. It covers about everything you will need but is a little light in the Hangul. Study it and learn it. 

To supplement it I also used the Defense Language Institute Korean Basic course. This covers the Hangul and the Chinese. Then, then, go to Korea and talk with the Koreans. Not in a Martial Arts setting but on the street, in the restaurants, anywhere you can. If you try even a little bit they will go way out of there way to help you. I was buying coffee in Etiwon and mispronounced a word and the lady selling me the coffee sat down and spent the next 30 minutes just going over my pronunciation. It was a great experience. If someone like me can learn it, any one can. You spend hours learning your art, then spend more time and learn the language. Ignorance is no excuse.


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## Fiendlover (Apr 7, 2008)

for me, just through the years i've picked them up but we also have to know certain terminology in order to become a black belt.  but when we became a black belt we were given a handbook that had the terminology we needed to know and if we needed to know more we would either be given handouts along with other things we needed to know or they would just plain out tell us what we needed to know.


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## jehja43679 (Apr 8, 2008)

&#24107;&#31684; - &#49324;&#48276; - Sa Bom - 'Teacher Example,' or a prime example of a teacher - and in fact is used in both martial arts and academic fields for Professor, or someone who has obtained a Ph.D. in their field and teaches.

&#25934;&#24107; - &#44368;&#49324; - Kyo Sa - 'Material Teacher,' or one who is qualified to teach the material - also used in both martial arts and academic fields as a teacher.

&#21161;&#25934; - &#51312;&#44368; - Jo Kyo - 'Assist Material,' or one who understands and may be of help when learning the material. This is also used in academic settings for a T.A. (all the same, a Teaching/Teacher's Assistant)

Hope that helps.


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## MBuzzy (Apr 8, 2008)

jehja43679 said:


> &#24107;&#31684; - &#49324;&#48276; - Sa Bom - 'Teacher Example,' or a prime example of a teacher - and in fact is used in both martial arts and academic fields for Professor, or someone who has obtained a Ph.D. in their field and teaches.
> 
> &#25934;&#24107; - &#44368;&#49324; - Kyo Sa - 'Material Teacher,' or one who is qualified to teach the material - also used in both martial arts and academic fields as a teacher.
> 
> ...


 
Wow, that is exactly what I was looking for.  I've never seen the hanja translations of these.

I wasn't aware the Sa Bom was used in academic settings also, thank you!

Jehja - have you ever encountered Seon Saeng used in a martial arts setting?  I know that it is used in conversation, but I've never heard it within MA.


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## jehja43679 (Apr 8, 2008)

If the tradition carries that Yu Dan Ja are never referred to by first name, then any Yu Dan Ja without instructor certification may be called Mr. or Ms.

For example, and these are fictional names (any semblance is purely coincidental), Mr. Kim Hwal In and his wife Mrs. Kim Hyori are both Cho Dans, and a Yu Gup Ja asks either for advice... they would say, "Shillyehamnida (excuse me), Kim Sonsaengnim..." for Mr. Kim, and "Shillyehamnida, Kim Samonim" for Mrs. Kim.

So, in terms of student-to-teacher... no... but junior-to-senior, probably...

I have come to understand also, that the fact that we do address our seniors as "sir" or "ma'am" is also a tradition that began outside of Korea (likely with U.S. soldiers), probably because in Korea, the discipline/respect between junior and senior is more of action than speech... 

I attended the 60th Anniversary of the Moo Duk Kwan in Sokcho City, South Korea, and when US TAC member Jang Dae Kyu, Sa Bom Nim addressed and instructed the Korean membership on how the ceremonies would begin, where Kwan Jang Nim would enter from, and how to proceed, when asked if they understood, the groups' unified reply was merely "ne..." and not "ne, Sa Bom Nim"


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## howard (Apr 9, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Howard,
> 
> Does your system use &#49440;&#49373;&#45784; (seon saeng nim) in reference to martial arts instructors or are you referring to normal teachers/professors?  I don't read Hanja, only Hangul, so I'm not sure of the translation for those characters to Korean.  I assume that the Korean pronunciation is the same as it is for &#49440;&#49373;?
> 
> What would be the Hanja equivalent for Martial Arts instructor (&#49324;&#48276;&#45784?


Hi MBuzzy, sorry for taking a while to answer you...

Since jehja43679 answered your question about the hanja for sahbeom very nicely, I'll skip that... other than to say that those characters, like the ones that say "seon saeng", have a very figurative meaning that derives from the several radicals that comprise them.

We don't use seon sang to refer to our teachers, but that may be due to our particular circumstances. We are a small organization with only one dojang in Korea, in Daegu, and all of our Korean teachers are master level. So, we call them all sahbeomnim, except for the headmaster of the kwan, whom we call "chongsanim (&#52509;&#49324;&#45784". All of our US instructors are American, so we use English on the mat over here except for the bowing in and out of class. btw, we're an old Hapkido organization (the Jungkikwan).

You're right about the Korean pronunciation of the hanja: exactly like &#49440;&#49373;.



MBuzzy said:


> What I'm referring to....In the Korean language, there are many different words for teacher.  Seon Saeng (&#49440;&#49373;&#45784 refers to a school teacher or professor, while Sa Bom (&#49324;&#48276;&#45784 refers to a martial arts instructor... This is what I was referring to.  The Korean language is very complex... The term Seon Saeng is basically another way of saying "sir," "mister," or "teacher." Whereas the term Sa Bom refers specifically to a Martial Arts instructor. The nim (&#45784 is just a "modifier" if you will simply to show respect to the person you're talking to (used when a younger person speaks to an older person).


 Good points.

I've heard Koreans use "seon saeng nim" like we might use "Mr" or "sir" in English, to show respect to somebody who is socially above them. LIke you, I've never heard it used to refer to a MA instructor.

When two or more of our master instructors are speaking to each other, they refer to each other as "sahbeom", without the "nim" particle. When the rest of us speak to or about them, we add the "nim".

One thing I have noticed over the years is that there is a lot of variation across Korean styles, and even within styles, in the terms used to refer to the same things, like certain techniques. Unfortunately, I don't know nearly enough about Hangul to be able to explain that.


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## MBuzzy (Apr 9, 2008)

jehja43679 said:


> If the tradition carries that Yu Dan Ja are never referred to by first name, then any Yu Dan Ja without instructor certification may be called Mr. or Ms.
> 
> For example, and these are fictional names (any semblance is purely coincidental), Mr. Kim Hwal In and his wife Mrs. Kim Hyori are both Cho Dans, and a Yu Gup Ja asks either for advice... they would say, "Shillyehamnida (excuse me), Kim Sonsaengnim..." for Mr. Kim, and "Shillyehamnida, Kim Samonim" for Mrs. Kim.
> 
> ...


 
That is an excellent point, we do use Mr. and Ms. for all of our Yu Dan Ja, so it follows that if you run class in Korean, they should be ___ Seonsaengnim.  I never really thought of that.  

It may just be from where I was, but in my Dojang in Korea, we did always refer to Sabomnim as "Sir."  But this was on a military base and Choe sabomnim has been teaching there for over 20 years.  I don't know how it is done in off base Dojangs.  

It is also the case that in Korean, almost every word they say is based on the position of one member to another (older/younger; more or less authority, etc).  Whether you use &#50836;, &#50660;&#51021;&#45768;&#45796;, &#50660;&#50612;&#50836;, &#50660;&#50612;, etc is all indicative of who you're talking to (please excuse any spelling errors, I'm just learning to modify verbs and such in Hangul).  Which could be the reason why they don't use sir/ma'am as much....the respect is found other places in the sentence.

If Errant is around, please feel free to correct me!


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## CatNap (May 24, 2008)

I study Chinese styles primarily (Southern) and growing up, I always admired people that learn the language to the style they studied.  It was one of many reasons that I began studying Cantonese and later Mandarin. I find it's always helpful, but not necessarily a requirement if you plan to stay in the States or where they speak English.  If you have a desire to travel, in my opinion, I think it's wise to learn the movement in the original language so people know what you're referring to. At any rate, it sure is fun trying.:ubercool:


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