# Dojo hoppers & loyalty to one's instructor



## IcemanSK (Dec 12, 2008)

A few years ago I was speaking with some school owners at a tournament. One who didn't know of a particularly talented 17 year old brown belt said, "wow, she's really good." The other agreed then added, "but she's a dojo hopper. She's trained at several schools in town, but when it comes to coming close to BB & taking on responsibilities in her school, she leaves & starts elsewhere."

I'd never heard the term before, but the idea got me thinking about loyalty of students to instructors. Have you ever heard of this reason for leaving a school? Do students owe instructors loyalty by taking on responsibilities in the school? Would you take in a student who was known in your town (for whatever reason) as a "dojo hopper?"


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## 14 Kempo (Dec 12, 2008)

I'll chime in on this one ...

First of all, I believe that we all get a bit confused in today's environment. Western culture and its capitalism doesn't always mix well with the Eastern culture of the Martial Arts.

Back in the day, the arts were passed on from teacher to student, the student became a teacher and passed on the art ... that is the Eastern culture. Here, at least in the US, most of us charge the student a price, whatever that price.

Today, the student is paying for the right to learn the art, whether it be from you or whoever they want to get that service from. Some students have absolutely no asperations of teaching. Does that mean they can not pay for lessons? Well that is up to you, as the teacher. However, I say yes, they are paying for services rendered, they have a right to not teach, they have a right to ask questions, they have a right to demand an answer, just as we, as teachers have the right to refuse them as a student.

I wish I had the ability to teach the art without having to demand money, but there are bills to pay. I wish I had the ability to only teach those that would dedicate themselves to me and the art, but that is not the American way. Look at it another way, what was the maker of your first car? After how many cars now, have you remained dedicated to that manufacturer? Did you become a salesman for them? Do you only recommend that brand? I seriously doubt it. If we as instructors ask people to pay for services, why do we feel we can demand that person to work for us, for free noless!

I don't get it, well, I do get it, I just don't think it is right. Would I hope that it could be? The answer is yes, but I'm not going to fool myself. What it all comes down too, is that they are paying customers and therefore they have the right to hop, just as you have the right to  not teach them.

Just my two cents ...


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## jks9199 (Dec 12, 2008)

Granted -- at 17, you could expect a little more stability from her, but I don't think that it's an easy question.  How many times has someone here advised someone to "keep trying different schools" or change schools if they're not happy where they are?  And, for kids where the dojo is often closely linked to daycare... moving may not be their choice.  Dojo A doesn't do before school care while Dojo B does or Dojo C will pick the kids up at school...  Whatever the reasons, it's not always a kid's choice to change schools.

I also have a problem with putting too great an emphasis on loyalty to one's teacher.  I'm going to talk out of both sides of my mouth here, because I personally am quite loyal to my teacher, and even made professional choices to remain where I could train with him.  But that's my PERSONAL loyalty, given after many years of training and learning.  I don't expect my students to show me the same degree of loyalty automatically... nor do I think that any student should.  I recently read a piece that pointed out that the martial arts are one of the few places in US culture where we voluntarily establish what is almost a master/slave relationship, where we expect some sort of long-term loyalty with little justification.  How many people almost assume that any martial arts instructor is somehow a font of wisdom... even if they're really a stuck up, poorly educated, misogynistic jerk who wouldn't know wisdom from a fortune cookie.

Do I want to see a student spend enough time to know what I'm offering?  Sure.  Then make an intelligent call for themselves.  I'd appreciate it if someone who's been "my" student would have the courtesy to let me know that they're going elsewhere and to tell me why (I might be able to answer their need -- or advise them where they can find what they want), especially if they're just going to start training with someone else in my style in the area.  But they really don't "owe" me that in some skewed version of ancestral loyalty, either.  It's more a matter of courtesy...  (I've even encourage some people to look for other arts or sent them to particular teachers!)


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## IcemanSK (Dec 12, 2008)

I think there is a lot of wisdom in what both of you have said, here. We who teach MA often get caught "in between cultures". We cannot expect everyone to teach or have the type of loyalty that we see in the East or perhaps show to our instructors from the "average student."

This example I sited has a particular difficulty for me. While I know there are many reasons a child would leave a school, leaving several schools in succession would raise a red flag for me. It's my issue & I'll cop to it. But if a particularly talented kid was known in my town (or told me) "I've trained for years at A, B, & C school before I came here," I'd have no illusions that she'd be at my school long, nor would I entrust her with anything. I'd wonder if she was teachable.


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## jarrod (Dec 13, 2008)

honestly i've never been comfortable with the notion that a black belt is obligated to take on responsibilities at a school, other than setting a good example. as others have already pointed out, they are a paying client.  for my part, i really enjoy teaching, being the demo dummy, posing for photos for the website or books...& i think you want someone who enjoys that sort of thing to be the one doing it.  

it's kind of like how the military allows officers to resign.  you really don't want somebody commanding a company of troops that doesn't want to be there.

jf


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## KIllA B (Dec 13, 2008)

My personal opinion is that a loyalty to ones instructor and school are crucial to the development of the practitioner.  I believe there are certain traditional obligations that are expected of the student regardless of any monetary arrangement or contractual agreement.  I dont believe the student always knows whats best for himself especially in early to mid stages of training. The teacher to student transmission of knowledge is a lifelong.  
However i feel that the teacher should want his students to reach their potential and that takes an understanding on the teachers part that a single teacher does not possess all the knowledge and that he should encourage his students to cross-train to better themselves.  But at the same time the student needs to keep in mind who his head teacher is.   I say this because I have a loyalty to my instructor even though I leave the dojo from time to time and train elsewhere to help gain a more broad perspective on what is not being taught at my home school I always return to my roots to share and help the school grow by offering new knowledge and insight.   I think it was Bruce Lee who said that the individual is more important than any style or system.


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## JTKenpo (Dec 13, 2008)

I don't think this is the norm for "dojo hoppers".  Normally one does this to gain rank, taking advantage of an instructor trying to get that new student in the door.  I can say that years ago in the very first school I attended there was a guy that had stayed a brown belt for many years just so that he could win in tournaments.  Again, not a very good reason.  The loyalty issue is one thing and it works both ways, if a student for whatever reason doesn't want to make the jump to black and will stay with you as long as they do not have to then whats the harm.  Loyalty to teacher and loyalty to student.  If you must have the $$ for the test then they leave and neither of you got what they wanted.


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## stickarts (Dec 13, 2008)

Different students come to me for different reasons and some journeys with me last longer than others. It depends on what they are looking for and how quickly they reach their goals. I guide them the best that I can while they are with me and I have no problem if they get what they came for and then move on. What is important to me is that students are honest with me about what their intentions are. There are some students that I form a more traditional and formal student / teacher bond with but not every student is looking for that and thats not a problem for me. With honesty and good communication it all works out well for me.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 13, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> A few years ago I was speaking with some school owners at a tournament. One who didn't know of a particularly talented 17 year old brown belt said, "wow, she's really good." The other agreed then added, "but she's a dojo hopper. She's trained at several schools in town, but when it comes to coming close to BB & taking on responsibilities in her school, she leaves & starts elsewhere."
> 
> I'd never heard the term before, but the idea got me thinking about loyalty of students to instructors. Have you ever heard of this reason for leaving a school? Do students owe instructors loyalty by taking on responsibilities in the school? Would you take in a student who was known in your town (for whatever reason) as a "dojo hopper?"


 

Some people want to train and not have to have responsibility, in the school or out of the school.

Some would prefer to just train and not test, but they test so they can move on to train with the other students at the same skill level. 

But in the school, if they become a BB then they might be expected to help more or to teach while the head instructor is off with a new family or dealing with a plumber or what have you. 

Then again the person who you mentioned was 17, could be like my friend who trained as a teenager and would not take a promotion to Black Belt, as they believed that the person should be 18 before they are in front of a class telling 40 something people what to do. Kind of like a respect for his elders, and understanding that no matter what rank was on his belt he would not be an Adult and therefor a child in their mind, so he preferred the be the best "Just under Black Belt" there was for a couple of years. 

Outside of the school, there is this perception from many people that a black belt is the whip. They can stop any bad guy. Their hands are dangerous weapons (* which they might be but so are the hands of a person not trained - and no there is no need to register them.  *) or that they can dodge bullets or they can beat up gangsters or what have you. I am sure many of us have heard "Oh so you are a Black Belt. What are you going to do if I do, ... "

As to student loyalty, I have an open mind about people training with others. I know what I can offer, and I know that others have different words or experiences that might help some people. If people need to leave for personality conflict or for development or what have you they can. I have pointed people in the direction of other local clubs when they asked.


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## exile (Dec 13, 2008)

I think some historical perspective on this might be useful. If you look at Choki Motobu, one of the icons of classic, traditional Okinawan karate and a pioneer in the movement to bring karate to Japan, you'll find that he had studied with no fewer than _five_ masters of the previous generation. And I suspect that the same would prove true for several others of the more revered figures in Okinawan karate.

I've wondered for a long time if the whole quasi-sacred character of the MA student/teacher that's enshrined in popular culture and our own thinking about the MAs isn't something that came in via the transformation of Okinawan karate into a Japanese MA in the militaristic prewar era. We know that Funakoshi strongly believed in the military utility of karate, not as combat training, but as a group activity to instill reflexive obedience into young conscripts for what everyone over there could clearly see was the coming Asian war. And that kind of semireligious loyalty was a big part of post-Meiji Japanese culture, with the Emperor identified, literally, as a god. My own feeling is that the Okinawans were far more pragmatic about it; their own tuite styles were probably family-rooted, like the seemingly endless variants of the CMAs, and it would make sense to follow a single teacher there, because you learned _te_ from the most experienced, knowledgable practitioner in your own family&#8212;no one else was going to teach you _their_ family secrets, after all! But Motobu, who for family reasons had to pick up his training where he could get it, bounced around quite a bit, and that may well have been the pattern for those in Okinawa who were not the 'designated inheritors' of the family style. The Japanese ethic of total obedience and unquestioned loyalty may turn out to have been the source of this 'selfless devotion' quality that's supposed to characterize the MA student in much popular writing and dojo/dojang folklore. That doesn't mean that individuals may not, for their own reasons, feel personal loyalty to their instructors, just as they may to a particular bookstore that they patronize because it's a small, locally-owned enterprise run by people who really love books and know a lot about them, and whom their customers don't mind paying much higher prices to than Amazon charges, in order to support them. But as jks pointed out earlier... that's an _individual_ choice, based on personal preferences and values. It doesn't inherently come with the territory.

I heartily agree with what people in the previous posts have been saying about the American free-market/service economy ethic (knowledge is a commodity like any other, you pay for it as part of a straight exchange and that's that) making a poor fit with the personal loyalty ethic that the MAs have come to embody. But I do wonder if, with a bit more probing, we might find that when you remove the practical bases for single teacher training in much earlier times&#8212;namely, the family-based nature of MA knowledge, the relatively low numbers of accomplished practitioners, etc&#8212;you find a good deal of dojo-hopping back then, as well.


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 13, 2008)

I think we're seeing a clash of cultures here. An instructor is within reason to expect to students to attend regularly -- or as regularly as they can -- and put in their best effort while they're there in the school. However disappointing it might, people's interests change, and they move on. We had a couple of people that might qualify as dojo hoppers come through -- they only stick out in my memory because they came in with an expectation that they would be granted special status for years of training and took it upon themselves to correct others in the class.

As a blue belt, I chafed once when practising with a fellow who had a lot of experience in a lot of schools. He was fit and he had speed and hit and kicked like a mule. I wasn't confident about his control. He also could not shut up and do as told. About three months into his tenure, he and I were paired to work on a drill our teacher had just demonstrated. Immediately he started changing things and correcting me. I stopped him dead: "Surely, you're not telling me how to do a drill we were both just taught."

He was gone within a couple weeks.

Other people find something they like for a while, and then move on.


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## myusername (Dec 13, 2008)

This is an interesting thread. I personally see nothing wrong in a bit of "Dojo hopping." It can sometimes take a while for people to become settled and find the right place or art for them. With so much choice available nowadays I think it is natural that people may become curious as to what is happening down the road at the other school. Certainly if people are paying then they have the right to take their custom where ever they wish.

However, what I do feel is that when you do finally settle on a school and wish to keep attending then you should follow the instructions of the instructor. I do not agree that people should be allowed to opt out of responsibilities or duties such as teaching just because they are paying to be there. In my view, if they do not agree with these duties then they can always exercise their right to "Dojo Hop." I see being expected to do some teaching as no more unreasonable than being expected to learn how to breakfall or to spar. For some arts it is a large part of a persons progression and development. When you have to instruct others or explain the finer details of a technique it forces within you a deeper understanding of that technique.


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## grydth (Dec 13, 2008)

It sounds odd to me that a gifted student would leave just to avoid assisting... especially as a brown belt she would know the best techniques are usually taught after shodan.

I think it likely JTKenpo is correct - if regional tournament rules are by rank only, she could run up quite a record against younger and less experienced opponents.

At age 17, I have to wonder if somebody else isn't pulling the strings - a dad, another dojo or both. I have heard of dojos stealing the forms/katas of others, and this could be done in such a fashion. She could also be getting groomed for a leadership role somewheres, and will be able to claim a great (padded) fighting record and broad knowledge of other local schools.


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## seasoned (Dec 13, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> A few years ago I was speaking with some school owners at a tournament. One who didn't know of a particularly talented 17 year old brown belt said, "wow, she's really good." The other agreed then added, "but she's a dojo hopper. She's trained at several schools in town, but when it comes to coming close to BB & taking on responsibilities in her school, she leaves & starts elsewhere."
> 
> I'd never heard the term before, but the idea got me thinking about loyalty of students to instructors. Have you ever heard of this reason for leaving a school? Do students owe instructors loyalty by taking on responsibilities in the school? Would you take in a student who was known in your town (for whatever reason) as a "dojo hopper?"


 
One of the tenets of MA is loyalty. One of the abuses of MA is expecting your students to do your job, by using them as free labor. With that said, the benefits I received from teaching were enormous. I learned more about my art by showing others, then I did, at the time I was learning. Teaching, opened up a whole new perspective to me, thanks to a sensei that allowed me that freedom of expression. Hopefully I am the type of sensei that mine was to me.


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## exile (Dec 13, 2008)

seasoned said:


> One of the tenets of MA is loyalty. One of the abuses of MA is expecting your students to do your job, by using them as free labor. With that said, the benefits I received from teaching were enormous. I learned more about my art by showing others, then I did, at the time I was learning. Teaching, opened up a whole new perspective to me, thanks to a sensei that allowed me that freedom of expression. Hopefully I am the type of sensei that mine was to me.



I'm with you, seasoned. 

One of the things I've found in teaching my university classes is that there's no better way to get students to understand both the level of mastery I want from them and the way to attain that level than to tell them:  when you look over the handout from each class, and your notes, try in your mind to imagine yourself teaching this same material to someone else who wasn't in class. Do you understand the linkage among the concepts and methods, how they build on each other, well enough to _show_ someone who's had no previous exposure to this particular set of material just how it all works? Why we conclude from this or that data that such and such must follow? Preparing to teach something really _is_ the most effective way to learn it, because you're forced to reconstruct the analysis and explanation you learned from your own teacher so that the logic of it all is completely transparent to _you_. Because if it isn't, you really won't be able to _show_ your  students how it all worksyou can't communicate clearly to someone else what you yourself don't fully control. So what you're saying here seems to me to have the ring of complete truth...


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## Twin Fist (Dec 15, 2008)

I was a brown in TKD for 12 years.

Of course i was in the navy and traveling , not in one town.

most likely explanation for this girl doing that is she just doesnt want to be a black belt.


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