# tell em about another ryus



## Manny (Oct 5, 2012)

Almost all the guys who write here are shotkan or goju ryu but very few another ryus like wado or ishin or some others.

I saw some vids of wado ryu and liked alot, also I know tha t Bill Mathocks is a Ishn-ryu karateka.

About Ishin-ryu I do not know a thing don't know if you can tell me about the diferences amoung it and shotokan or goju.

Manny


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## arnisador (Oct 5, 2012)

Many years ago I studied Isshin-ryu, then Goju-ryu, then Uechi-ryu. All very different! I liked them all. Isshin compared to Shotokan is more upright and forward-facing, closer-in, with a distinctive vertical-fist punch with atypical thumb placement.


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## punisher73 (Oct 8, 2012)

Isshin-Ryu is a blending of the two main branches of okinawan karate.  Some people have said that it is upper body Shorin-Ryu and lower body Goju-Ryu, meaning that the stances that are used are more in line with Goju-Ryu's type stances, and the upper body techniques use more of a Shorin-ryu flavor.  That said, Isshin-Ryu made some refinements that make it unique on the surface.  Isshin-ryu uses the vertical fist as it's main punch as opposed to a specialty punch as in other styles.  Also, Isshin-Ryu teaches the muscle block as it's main focus for blocks.

As to how it compares to Shotokan?  Shotokan is a further refinement of Shorin-Ryu so they share some of the same katas.  In fact, Isshin-ryu's Upper Body Chart is based on Shotokan's Ten No Kata.  No one knows how it was developed or brought into Isshin-Ryu but they are very similar.  Isshin-Ryu uses it much the same way that Funakoshi used it as well.  A way for a student to practice kumite by themself and to hone in the basic techniques, and to return to it throughout their study. Prior to the Pinan/Heian katas, Shorin-Ryu used Naihanchi as it's main core kata.  Isshin-ryu uses Naihanchi as one of the two core kata as well.  Due to Shotokan moving away from it's Okinawan roots and becoming "more Japanese", Shotokan uses a longer distance between opponents and higher kicks.  The katas they share are Seisan/Hangetsu, Naihanchi/Tekki, Wansu/Empi, Chinto/Gankaku, Kusanku/Kanku, 

As to how it compares to Goju-Ryu.  Isshin ryu takes two of it's from Goju.  Sanchin (which is the other core kata in Isshin-Ryu) and Seiuchin are both from this style.  Isshin-Ryu uses the close in fighting style of Goju-Ryu and uses the power generation as well developed from Sanchin.  Sanchin used to be the first kata taught in Goju before the Gekisai katas.  In Isshin-Ryu, Sanchin is the last kata taught (in many schools and how Shimabuku did it) as he thought that introduced to soon would hinder a student's progress.

In my opinion, you will see alot more Goju similarities in Isshin-ryu than from Shotokan.  But, the kata patterns in Shotokan will look more similar in Isshin-Ryu even though the exterior look of the techniques is very different.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 8, 2012)

Manny said:


> Almost all the guys who write here are shotkan or goju ryu but very few another ryus like wado or ishin or some others.
> 
> I saw some vids of wado ryu and liked alot, also I know tha t Bill Mathocks is a Ishn-ryu karateka.
> 
> ...



In Okinawa, there are several ryus that are said to be oldest.  In Okinawa, the Okinawa Prefecture Karate Rengokai recognizes them as these:

Goju Ryu - descended from Naha-Te
Shorin Ryu - descended from Shuri-Te
Uechi Ryu - originated by Kanbun Uechi, who learned various Chinese arts in China and brought them to Okinawa
Isshin Ryu - a blend or synthesis, as described by Punisher, of various aspects of Shorin-Ryu and Goju-Ryu, and incorporating kubodo (weapons) that the founder Shimabuku Soke learned from Shinken Taira and Chotoku Kyan, among others.

It has been noted that many of the basic exercises (Charts I and II) of Isshin-Ryu appear similar to those of Shotokan, but I do not think a definitive link has been established (I could be wrong).

There are many other ryu in Okinawa, but I believe that most of the others are either derived from one of the oldest as listed above, or are not yet old enough (must be at least 50 years old) to be included by the Rengokai.  Some I do not know why they are not recognized by the Rengokai, but I'm not political and mean no disrespect to any ryu.  An example of another ryu might be Shito-Ryu.

Then there are the Japanese ryu, such as Wado-Ryu and Chito-Ryu.

There are also ryu that have originated in other countries, such as the USA (Washin-Ryu, etc).

The word itself, 'ryu', means 'school' as I understand it.  In Isshin-Ryu, we say that the name of our style means "One Heart Way," or "One Heart Method."

Many, if not most, Okinawan ryu are descended either directly or indirectly from Okinawan 'Te' or empty-handed fighting styles, primarily Naha-Te and Shorin-Te (again, in my imperfect understanding).  Other methods and teachings were brought in from other styles of martial arts; a lot came from nearby China, particularly the Fujian province.  Before Te, there may have been a lot of cross-pollination of various arts between Okinawa and China and even other Southeast Asian countries; Okinawa was a fishing kingdom and a center of trade for many nations, and its history is largely unrecorded.

As Punisher noted, Isshin-Ryu is characterized by the use of the vertical fist, the snapping kick, higher stances, and lower kicks in general.  It's not all cut-and-dried, but those are the immediately-observable differences between Isshin-Ryu and other ryu of Okinawa.  However, even that can be misleading.  Whenever I get together with other Isshin-Ryu karateka at a seminar or tournament, it's clear that there are several, perhaps even many, ways of doing things which are taught in the USA.  From subtle differences to kata I can hardly even recognize; there have clearly been some changes made.  It's a political hot-potato to say who changed what, though; everyone mostly insists that their way of doing it is correct and everyone else has drifted, so we mostly just try to get along and ignore the various differences in style and method.


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## Manny (Oct 9, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> In Okinawa, there are several ryus that are said to be oldest.  In Okinawa, the Okinawa Prefecture Karate Rengokai recognizes them as these:
> 
> Goju Ryu - descended from Naha-Te
> Shorin Ryu - descended from Shuri-Te
> ...



What are the advantages of using a vertial punch instead the more normal reverse punch (oi zuki or gyako-zuki)? and as some one mentioned what about the lock of the thumb (in the ishin fist) that is not placed in the regular way?

Manny


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 9, 2012)

Manny said:


> What are the advantages of using a vertial punch instead the more normal reverse punch (oi zuki or gyako-zuki)? and as some one mentioned what about the lock of the thumb (in the ishin fist) that is not placed in the regular way?
> 
> Manny



That is a subject of some debate.  I am not an expert, so I won't claim to know what is right, only what I've been told and believe to be true.  In my case, I believe that the vertical fist is actually the way people fight naturally; this is something that Shimabuku Soke noticed when he watched people fight.  Even those trained to use a torquing fist with a horizontal delivery used a vertical punch when actually fighting for real. He apparently found this to be more natural and adopted it.  There is evidence that when he founded Isshin-Ryu, he used the vertical fist at first; then later experimented with the torquing punch, and finally went back to the vertical fist.

With regard to the thumb placement, it is my experience that it makes the wrist more stable and less likely to fold up at the moment of impact if not delivered with absolute precision.

Having said that, I take no issue with those who disagree; it is simply not something I am willing to argue with others about.  If they claim their system works, I am content to believe that.  I only know what I am taught, and as stated, I am not an expert on it.

I would also like to say that there are no absolutes.  In Isshin-Ryu we are noted for using the vertical punch, but in truth it is not entirely vertical but somewhat slanted over to one side.  Also, we apply the fist where it fits; indeed we show the use of a horizontal punch in several kata, and punches of varying degree of angle in others.  The body we are striking will always offer the correct position of the fist for striking it, so the smart thing to do is to adapt the strike to put it where it fits.  Horizontal, vertical, etc, is not important.  What is important is that the fist strikes home with maximum efficiency.

It has also been pointed out to me that if one depends upon the torquing punch, then the turn must have been completed prior to the blow landing for it to be maximally effective.  Imagine aiming at a target two feet away, but the target moves closer as you throw it; this would seem to make that particular punch less effective, since it would not have completed the 'torque' turn where the power is supposed to be generated.  The vertical fist does not turn (actually it does, once you get past the surface level of Isshin-Ryu, but this isn't clear to beginners), and so it remains as effective at a closer distance than originally planned; if the opponent moves in, the fist simply strikes sooner, but not with less power.

With regard to my comment above that our punches DO turn sometimes, consider the most basic of Isshin-Ryu exercises.  Properly done, the upper cut is a prime example.  One begins from a vertical fist formation, but the punch is going out and rising and turning, so that it is delivered with a nearly palm up configuration.  Why?  Because a) this is where the fist fits into the area between the nose and the chin, b) because the fist naturally rebounds into a 'guard' position following the strike, ready to be delivered again or turned into a block without the need to rechamber it, and c) because the punch is also a block.  The natural turning movement of the rising uppercut in Isshin-Ryu is the defense for a lunge or reverse punch from an opponent; done correctly it intercepts the incoming punch and rides over the top of it.  As the punch turns to go palm-up, the arm naturally rudders or steers the incoming arm away from the body, turning the attacker slightly at the same time.  One can be reacting to a thrown punch, render the incoming punch ineffective, and deliver a counter-blow in the same movement.  It's not that often that the last person to throw wins, but this is a very good example of it.   If the fist was not turning, this would not occur.  But it turns the opposite direction as the 'torquing' punch of some other disciplines.  Instead of turning counter clockwise to end up palm down, it turns clockwise to end up palm up, and it does a half-rotation rather than a complete rotation.



And there are many fist formations regarding thumb and finger placement.  Not all are obvious, not all karateka use the same ones, even inside a given ryu.  I myself am rather fond of the 'old man fist' practiced by some; it seems unnatural at first, but you can strike with amazing power without injury to the fist or wrist using it - at least I can.

The 'vertical fist' is a surface level difference.  Dive a little deeper and it's not such a major difference at all, really.


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## Manny (Oct 9, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> That is a subject of some debate.  I am not an expert, so I won't claim to know what is right, only what I've been told and believe to be true.  In my case, I believe that the vertical fist is actually the way people fight naturally; this is something that Shimabuku Soke noticed when he watched people fight.  Even those trained to use a torquing fist with a horizontal delivery used a vertical punch when actually fighting for real. He apparently found this to be more natural and adopted it.  There is evidence that when he founded Isshin-Ryu, he used the vertical fist at first; then later experimented with the torquing punch, and finally went back to the vertical fist.
> 
> With regard to the thumb placement, it is my experience that it makes the wrist more stable and less likely to fold up at the moment of impact if not delivered with absolute precision.
> 
> ...




Thank you Bill, I must confess when I deliver a fist to the face most of the times I use a vertical punch, don't know why, simply I feel more confortable do it that way, I use the reverse to hit the solar plexus but when aiming for the face I use the vertical punch, it¡s easier I think.

Manny


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 9, 2012)

Manny said:


> Thank you Bill, I must confess when I deliver a fist to the face most of the times I use a vertical punch, don't know why, simply I feel more confortable do it that way, I use the reverse to hit the solar plexus but when aiming for the face I use the vertical punch, it¡s easier I think.
> 
> Manny



There are a number of places where one can punch to the head and use a variety of fist formations, as well as choosing palm, blade or edge of the hand, or even finger strikes.  I have had seen an ichi knuckle punch to the jaw remove a molar neater than any dentist could, right in front of me.  The soft tissue of the throat presents different opportunities than the harder surfaces, and so on.


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## Manny (Oct 10, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> There are a number of places where one can punch to the head and use a variety of fist formations, as well as choosing palm, blade or edge of the hand, or even finger strikes.  I have had seen an ichi knuckle punch to the jaw remove a molar neater than any dentist could, right in front of me.  The soft tissue of the throat presents different opportunities than the harder surfaces, and so on.



When doing punching drills I like to use the fists ala boxer, you know jab,cross,hook and upper cut, however the skull is such a hard thing to punch that way, in self defense pracice I tend to use the heel palm or the hammer fist or even better the elbow. A broken hand or broken knuckles in an actual street fight can be painful and disadvantageus.

Manny


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