# One mans critique of the IKCA tapes, unfavorable...



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

*WARNING*: THE FOLLOWING POST CONTAINS BIASED OPINIONS THAT ARE NOT FLATTERING TO THE CORE MATERIAL OF A KENPO SENIORS PRODUCT LINE. THE FOLLOWING OPINIONS ARE MY OWN ONLY, AND DO NOT REFLECT THE OPINIONS OF OTHER KENPOISTS I HAVE TRAINED WITH, MARTIALTALK, OR ANYBODY ELSEEXCEPT, PERHAPS, MY PARROTLET WHO HAD TO SIT ABOVE THE T.V. WHILE I WATCHED THIS STUFF! IF YOU ARE OFFENDED BY FIRMLY STATED OPINIONS, PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE WITH THIS THREAD.

OK. I have been a critic of video learning for a very long time. I continue to be. I have been a critic of Messieurs Sullivan & LeRoux and thier IKCA project for a long time, because I have never once seen a quality black belt emerge from the system, when that was their sole source of training. I still am. I have been a critic of the crappy production quality of the core curriculum videos after having seen only parts. I still am.  That being said, I had the opportunity to review the series in (almost) its entirety.  Following, please find my assessment, curtailed out of respect for the forum.

*Some Context (from my point of view):*

When Mr. Parker was alive, many folks would get full of themselves, and believe they deserved higher rank than they had thus far received. Most simply broke off, and gave it to themselves. Some of the more clever folks would write by-laws to their new organization, so that it was the by-laws that granted them new status through stripes. I think I have more respect for the guys who just do it. At least they arent hiding behind organizational pretenses.

After his passing, it just got worse. The more red you had on your belt, and the belts of your students, the more clout you had in the kenpo community. So an epidemic started. Please understandI am NOT saying this epidemic is what inspired the IKCA to take the formative steps they did; in fact, they were advertising in Black Belt before Mr. Parker had moved on. I AM saying that I suspect they saw an increase in business after Mr. Parkers passing, since their curriculum represented a faster, easier way to get to a black belt  or higher rank black belt  in kenpo without doing the hard work as an iron-worker and student scholar one would expect in a studio setting. Hence, post 1990, there are a lot of guys who are really horrible kenpoists that can nevertheless claim direct black-belt lineage through a senior, to the founder, for less effort, skill, and a video camera. Inviting, no? Particularly if you mistake rank, for skillassuming a complimentary relationship exists, such that as one goes up, so does the otherregardless of which goes up first. (I must be goodI have a butt-load of red stripes on my belt).

I have always taken a stance against video learning, based on the number of intricacies that require immediate correction by an informed instructor. By the time a video gets mailed in, its too late; habit patterns will have formed that are engrained in the students mind & body, and are a task to unwind & correct. So, for me, being a critic of video learning is nothing new.  What is new is that I have finally forced myself to sit through several of the instructional tapes, and feel worse for wear for the experience.

I recently moved to Northern Cal, initially to Napa, then finally to Santa Rosa. Looking for a place in Napa to train, I found a couple of guys who run a kenpo school that also includes some Haganah & other stuff. They have been doing kenpo and a bunch of other stuff well before they affiliated with the IKCA, and it shows. As a matter of fact, the lead prof moves much like a Sam Pai gent I used to train with; combined with his adjunctive applications of FMA, BJJ, Danzan-ryu and JKD (among others), he/they do a really darned good job; solid kenpo, positive training atmosphere, and so on.  For the sake of establishing a long-term training relationship/friendship with these guys, I agreed to review the IKCA tapes, learn the Master form, and be video-taped for submission to the IKCA HQ for review. What the heck, I thought. Kenpo is kenpo, and how bad could it be. After all, Sullivan and LeRoux were old Parker-boyz from way backI should surely see the same brilliance of the Parker material, if only spun a little differently.

*The Experience:*

I feel dirty like I have to bathe, and am embarrassed for them (the IKCA founders). Someone in the production process should have told them they looked silly, but never did. The salute they came up with looks like a bad Star Trek Vulcan greeting, and (in my own pea-little brain) insults the tradition from which they came by straying so far from some simple things. Left hand over right fist goes back hundreds of years that we know of, and to stray from that for this claw-over-fist-then-wave-Hi thing seemed to me like a slap in the facetrying so hard to separate themselves from IKKA traditions, that they went overboardand didnt know they did it. I knew, watching their salutation, that I could not, in good conscience and in honor of the memory of the men who had gone before to create this thing we call kenpo, open or close a single form or technique with that salutation. I would not only feel corny and light in my loafers doing it, I would feel like I had turned my back on everything I learned in kenpo over the years, and particularly on the memory of Mr. Parker. So I knew, if I did learn and tape their master form to send in, it was going to piss them off, because I would be doing an EPAK salutation at beginning and end, and not their silly Spock meets another pointy-eared race thing.

*Next, Thumbs in the Belt.*

In nearly every opening or closing dialogue, they both stood there, thumbs thrust in their belt knots and hips pushed forward, as if to show off the shiny new medals that were their IKCA self-promotions. Perhaps it was unconscious, but it looked too uniform and rehearsed to be an accident. Now, granted, I stick my thumbs in my belt when my shoulders hurt too much to hold them up, and folding my arms across my chest might mistakenly be interpreted as non-verbal non-listening. But the last time I did so with this posturing, I got kicked in the gut so hard by Bob Perry that it knocked me off my feet and backwards so hard, I landed on my duff, and fought the urge to vomit for over an hour (couldnt slap out or check a piece of the kick, as my thumbs were stuffed in my belt knot). Apparently, it was considered bad form (an appearance of arrogance and pride in rank, when karate at the black belt level should reflect the humility of the scholar), and I had not been informed. Until that moment.

*Now, The Kenpo.*

Thought I, They are a couple of old-time Parker-boyz. Surely, there will be quality kenpo in the technical requirements. My impression is that they tried to insert some master key movements into their own made-up requirements, and even tried to pay homage to some of the more classic, long-standing techs from the way-back days of kenpo (they do 5-swords, but with closed fists; snapping twig, but with different targets and application, and so on). But, alas, they fall short. The quality of movement throughout most of the tapes is slow and dorkyreminded me of some of the Villari/Matteras guys I had seen who got their black belts only because the check cleared. But I will grant them this: I think their movement was so elementary because they were slowing it up for the educational purposes of the video series. Every once in a while, you can see one of them slip back into the habits they developed under Parker, and drop in some better speed, form, blending, etc. So, I do not for a moment believe that either are as bad as they appear on tape. In fact, Ive seen both move in person, and the tapes  by far  do them no justice. Additionally, knowing how critical minds in the kenpo community can be, it took a lot of courage and commitment to a decision for them to make these tapes, dumbed down for the learning masses. That being said, I would still have liked to see them move more the way Mr. Parker taught them to, as these tapes are going to outlive all of us, and in years to come, be mistaken for what kenpo was/is. Additionally, anyone NOT from a solid kenpo background watching these tapes is going to assume that kenpo is a silly art with implausible solutions & poor mechanics fostered by awkward people, and fail to see what the big deal is for folks who are avidly committed to their EPAK lineage art.  If I were in any other art, and saw these tapes, I would opt to stay with my art, and not switch to kenpo. Not the same impression one gets watching footage of Mr. Parker, or his other seniors who have made tapes, such as Mr. Tatum, Planas, etc.

Additionally, after more years in kenpo than I have on the planet, Mr. Sullivan still wont turn his toes in/heels out on a horse stance or neutral bow (personal peccadillo, as I have to constantly remind myself, and I would hope that, by the time I had so many years in, it would be habit.), or look over his shoulder prior to launching a spinning back kick. (now Im just being picky, I know. But details do matter, especially when videotaped for the permanent historical record).

The techniques lack the sophistication of EPAK that I am accustomed to seeing. The argument in reply is that they hearken back to simpler kenpo days, when the term Chinese Kenpo was bandied around more often. Why dont I buy it? Chinese kenpo oldsters were my first kenpo teachers, and moved with a flowery elegance and innate sophistication not seen in these tapes. I know Mr. Sullivan is capable of more, because Ive seen him do it. I know he can teach the elegance, because I bumped into Leo Lenoue  one of his black belts from the way-back days  who could still move purdy after a many decade layoff. So why so embarrassingly simple? If its to keep the material learnable by newbies, say soand show them what it eventually evolves into; but, for criminies sake, dont hold that yuckus out there as the ideal for the world to see.

I may have, with the posting of this, earned myself a disinvitation from training with the guys in Napa, who again, run an excellent school with some decent kenpo, complemented by bringing some other quality skills to the table. That will be my only regret. That, and the IKCA looks to have some good deals on uniforms and belts (though I suspect they are for members only, but could not say for sure).

If you want to see kenpo on tape, pick up either Mr. Tabatabais (sp?), Mr. Tatums, or Mr. Planas, & spare yourself the sense of being embarrassed FOR them that one experiences while watching the IKCA tapes. 

Back to looking for some local guys to train with (and missing the Napa gang in advance),

Dave

PS - I never should have left Southern California


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## Doc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I never should have left Southern California


Dam, who rattled your cage? (Not that I disagree) No more diplomatic political correctness for Dr. Dave. Must be rough up there. 
You got mail!


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## Flying Crane

A number of years ago I ran across their advertisement for their program in one of the magazines.  For a whopping $5 they offered a sample video to see what they do.  I took the bait and sent them $5, and got the video out of pure sadistic curiosity.  My expectations were not disappointed.


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## Kenpodoc

Nicely written review.  It's hard to present negative opinions with out sounding demeaning.  

Jeff


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## bdparsons

Dave,

Glad you titled this thread properly--One man's critique...

Also glad to see you linked up with Doug Meeks and his folks in Napa. Too bad you've chosen to jump to conclusions and not sit down and discuss the IKCA material from a technical standpoint with Doug. I'm sure it would be an enlightening experience.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion about anything and everything. But it should pointed out that most often certain presuppositions are brought to subject matter such as this. In this particular case it's evident from the flow of your post that a whole boatload of presuppositions docked in this harbor.

Let's be frank--You had your mind made up (whether consciously or not) before the first tape ever entered the VCR that you weren't going to like what you saw. That also is evident from the flow of your post. A quick denial of this point will not convince those who know of your long-standing opposition to the IKCA that you developed a sudden case of open-mindedness about the organization.

Don't have the time or inclination right now to address your individual points, maybe sometime in the near future. Suffice it to say that scratching the surface of the system does not entail an understanding of it, even with your purported extensive knowledge of Kenpo. Even though your post is replete with back-handed compliments to Chuck Sulivan and Vic LeRoux it does not mean you have a grasp of the material. But then again, that wasn't ever a possibility to begin with was it?

The responses to this post will be very predictable. Those with their minds made up with a negative attitude about the IKCA will respond with the "AHA! I knew it!"; while those of us who know better (read extensive mat time) will be for the most part silent.

Sadly, rather than coming across as a guardian of the Kenpo community (many will try to hold you up as such; already smatterings of that starting to happen) you really are coming across as just another who is not willing to get on the mats with the material and see what's there.

Hope you find what you're looking for, pleasant journey.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## shaver77

Sorry to see that you flunked your test and can't continue to workout with the guys in Napa. I hear good things about them. 

Better luck next test.


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## The Kai

Having seen a few of the IKCA tapes I have to sgree with Dr Dave.

That being said, one of my students (prior to having joined with me) was tempted by the easy pay black belt thru the mail.  having paid for the entire series- he found he could not go through withthe "testing"


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## celtic_crippler

shaver77 said:
			
		

> Sorry to see that you flunked your test and can't continue to workout with the guys in Napa. I hear good things about them.
> 
> Better luck next test.


 
Sounds like he may have flunked an IKCA test and is bitter about that as well. You'd think that someone with supposedly so much "experience" would have better manners. Especially with a signature like his. The world is full of hypocrites though. 

Before you go off on me know that I am studio trained. I do however respect the IKCA and their members. I've met a few of them and they knew their stuff. Some better than some traditionally trained people I know. Besides, you don't get much closer to SGM Parker than Chuck Sullivan. Those that know their history know that. 

I would suggest your time would be better spent doing something positive like practicing rather than watching hours of video that you obviously have no interest in and then posting venomous attacks against Kenpo seniors. Just a suggestion.


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## Kenpodoc

celtic_crippler said:
			
		

> Sounds like he may have flunked an IKCA test and is bitter about that as well. You'd think that someone with supposedly so much "experience" would have better manners. Especially with a signature like his. The world is full of hypocrites though.
> 
> Before you go off on me know that I am studio trained. I do however respect the IKCA and their members. I've met a few of them and they knew their stuff. Some better than some traditionally trained people I know. Besides, you don't get much closer to SGM Parker than Chuck Sullivan. Those that know their history know that.
> 
> I would suggest your time would be better spent doing something positive like practicing rather than watching hours of video that you obviously have no interest in and then posting venomous attacks against Kenpo seniors. Just a suggestion.


I re read the post and I still don't see it as a venomous attack. It is clearly labeled as a personal opinion and he gave clear reasons for his opinions. Personally I like impassioned, non-vindictive opinions. I'm personally not fond of the IKCA technique tapes but have not spent enough time with them to give a reasoned response. I do like the IKCA 2 tape sparring set, not so much for the information but just for the delight of watching all those guys demo what they love. I'd like to see more tapes from all lineages like those tapes.

Jeff


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## Jonathan Randall

Personally, I have mixed feelings about the program myself. However, the only two IKCA BB's that I have met ALREADY had significant prior training in similiar styles before beginning the Karate Connection program, so in actuality, I think there's (while unintentional) a little bit of the strawman argument regarding purely "video blackbelts" as I don't believe there are very many of them. Also, these tapes, IIRC, were made neary fifteen years ago and their production values cannot be expected to equal the quality of more current videos.

I did not take the review as vindictive, and I appreciated some of the points, but I do think there was a pre-disposition to dislike them which coloured the review (even if unintentionally).

Here's my take: they provide "orphaned" martial artists a way to continue learning and to advance within an association with proven lineage, but they are not equal to resident study with qualified instructors. I also think  (from my viewing of them, at least) that a person who went through all the tapes and tests would have significantly greater self-defence ability against common assaults than they would by going through a 12-18 month commercial TKD black belt course at a local McDojang -but significantly less ability than a brick and mortar EPAK third brown, green belt, or even blue belt.


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## celtic_crippler

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I AM saying that I suspect they saw an increase in business after Mr. Parkers passing, since their curriculum represented a faster, easier way to get to a black belt  or higher rank black belt  in kenpo without doing the hard work as an iron-worker and student scholar one would expect in a studio setting. Hence, post 1990, there are a lot of guys who are really horrible kenpoists that can nevertheless claim direct black-belt lineage through a senior, to the founder, for less effort, skill, and a video camera. Inviting, no?


 
Where's the evidence? Nowhere does the IKCA garauntee anyone a black belt in record time. Just because you "video test" doesn't mean you will pass. Many do not. It also does not mean that the people who train with this series don't put in practice time and train hard. Let me put into perspective for you on a personal level. How do you feel when someone claims you're not a "real" doctor because you're a chiropractor? Many feel that those that can't put forth the time and effort to become a "real" doctor become chiropractors. I'm not saying that I personally feel that way, but I'm sure you've heard that before. Do you feel any less qualified because you didn't make it through a "real" medical school? 



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I feel dirty like I have to bathe, and am embarrassed for them (the IKCA founders). Someone in the production process should have told them they looked silly, but never did. The salute they came up with looks like a bad Star Trek Vulcan greeting.....Not the same impression one gets watching footage of Mr. Parker, or his other seniors who have made tapes, such as Mr. Tatum, Planas, etc.


 
This is not venomous, or insulting????? It definately appears to be a personal attack on Chuck Sullivan, Vic LeRoux, and the entire IKCA.



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> ...karate at the black belt level should reflect the humility of the scholar


 
You should practice what you preach. I have to admit that just because that is a value I hold dear I can not force it upon others. 



			
				 Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Surely, there will be quality kenpo in the technical requirements...but they fall short ....Mr. Sullivan still wont turn his toes in/heels out on a horse stance or neutral bow or look over his shoulder prior to launching a spinning back kick.


 
No offense, but what makes you qualified to critique Chuck Sullivan!?! You do know who he is...... right? 



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> If you want to see kenpo on tape, pick up either Mr. Tabatabais (sp?), Mr. Tatums, or Mr. Planas, & spare yourself the sense of being embarrassed FOR them that one experiences while watching the IKCA tapes.


 
I can't help but wonder if you do not have alterior motives. One moment you bash video training and the next you promote other's videos. 

No onethat owns training DVD/VHS, or has made or sells training DVD/VHS in any capacity has any right to bash video training to any degree. It's just plain hypocritical. Bashing other organizations or martial artists (regardless of style) is just plain bad manners and demonstrates a lack of humility, that you point out as being a quality of any black belt. 

I was trained in a traditional dojo and attained the rank of 2nd black in American Kenpo. I recently started the IKCA curriculum and personally think it's great. Revisiting the basics on the Orange Belt DVD has improved my skills and that of our current student base. You're flat out giving misinformation, especially about Chuck Sullivans stances. He expressly demonstrates and instructs you to point your feet in when going over the neutral bow stance. Anyone that cares to find out for themselves can request a FREE preview DVD from their website. Contrary to previous posts it does NOT cost any money. 

I'm sorry you didn't pass your test, but that's no reason to be so negative. Training harder and trying again would produce more positive results. IMHO. 'nuff said.


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## terryl965

I believe his comments are not about not passing but what his thought are about those tapes. I know nothing about any of these guys and just reading a post about some one opinion and remember it is his opinion here and the way he feels about this. I see nothing about trying to change anybody mind aboout there own training just that it is not for him.
Just my 2 cents wroth here so not much.
Terry


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## Blindside

> I was trained in a traditional dojo and attained the rank of 2nd black in American Kenpo. I recently started the IKCA curriculum and personally think it's great. Revisiting the basics on the Orange Belt DVD has improved my skills and that of our current student base.


 
???
If revisiting basics on the orange belt tape (and I own the tape) improved your skills that is more a commentary or what your skills were before, or what you let them deteriorate to. 

If you are a second in AK, why are you putting yourself through the IKCA curriculum?  

Lamont


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## celtic_crippler

Blindside said:
			
		

> ???
> If revisiting basics on the orange belt tape (and I own the tape) improved your skills that is more a commentary or what your skills were before, or what you let them deteriorate to.
> 
> If you are a second in AK, why are you putting yourself through the IKCA curriculum?
> 
> Lamont


 
I don't think you're qualified to critique what my skills are or aren't. I'm studying their material because I want to and I find value in it. If you do not then don't study it, but don't knock my decision to do so. 

Why do you study anything? Hopefully to become a better martial artist. My goal is to learn as much as possible from any and every resource possible. This is another step along my personal journey. I've researched and studied others systems and organizations for several years. Some I benefited from, others not so much. But one things for sure, you won't see me bashing any of the ones I wasn't happy with. My mother raised me better than than.


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## Sam

Just an observation, let's see if the trend continues...

The newer members of MT react negatively to this post, and then go on to tell the original poster how much experience they personally have, why he is wrong, and throw backhanded insults which sound remarkably similar to those I hear of my peers when they argue over boys. 
the old hats say thanks for the information, or agree.

I wonder if its just a coincidence...

Great review, by the way.


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## Blindside

celtic_crippler said:
			
		

> I don't think you're qualified to critique what my skills are or aren't. I'm studying their material because I want to and I find value in it. If you do not then don't study it, but don't knock my decision to do so.


 
Actually, I didn't critique your skills at all, you did.  If your profession was a long-haul truck driver and you went back and took an introduction to driving class aimed at high school sophmores and found that it improved your skills, I would say that there was something flawed with your original skills. There is nothing revolutionary about that orange belt tape.

Lamont


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## Blindside

Sam said:
			
		

> Just an observation, let's see if the trend continues...
> 
> The newer members of MT react negatively to this post, and then go on to tell the original poster how much experience they personally have, why he is wrong, and throw backhanded insults which sound remarkably similar to those I hear of my peers when they argue over boys.
> the old hats say thanks for the information, or agree.


 
Hi Sam,

Actually, I think alot of the older members have already done this.  We've hashed through the "video training, Tracy vs. EPAK, EPAK vs. IKCA, etc" threads multiple times and don't really have additional info to add to the subject.  I suspect this thread would have disappeared into the archives had Clyde not popped off about it over on KenpoNet.  

And we are arguing about boys, even if we call them "seniors" so it isn't just a coincidence. 

Lamont


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

celtic_crippler said:
			
		

> Sounds like he may have flunked an IKCA test and is bitter about that as well. You'd think that someone with supposedly so much "experience" would have better manners. Especially with a signature like his. The world is full of hypocrites though.
> 
> Before you go off on me know that I am studio trained. I do however respect the IKCA and their members. I've met a few of them and they knew their stuff. Some better than some traditionally trained people I know. Besides, you don't get much closer to SGM Parker than Chuck Sullivan. Those that know their history know that.
> 
> I would suggest your time would be better spent doing something positive like practicing rather than watching hours of video that you obviously have no interest in and then posting venomous attacks against Kenpo seniors. Just a suggestion.


 
I think you must have not read some parts of the post, or else I didn't post them clearly enough to make some things clear. I did not take the orange belt test. I did not take any test. After learning the forms for EPAK (from a couple of different lineages, during a couple of generations of redefinition), I did not expect to have any difficulty learning the master form for the IKCA. Having seen the form, I still do not expect it would post a challenge; on the contrary, I am arrogant enough to believe that I could "tailor" it a bit to make one of the more authoritative and elegant tapes they would have in their reference library; if I re-wrote it to include some rather important kenpo concepts that are missing, and narrated a walk-through of the form...in short, no. I was not doing it to test for rank, or obtain rank recognition, or even to join the IKCA.

I have immensely enjoyed the time I spent with Mr. Meeks, and the companionship & comraderie present in his school among his senior students, as well as his newbies. He runs a top notch facility, with a quality emphasis on providing a positive martial arts learning experience for all who come through his door; he is an outstanding martial artist, excellent communitcator and instructor, and he and Lance have been nothing but kind, gracious, professional, and skilled on many levels (they sure de-fanged my snake, and have some of the coolest gun disarms I've seen in years).  I opted to learn the form because they struck me as some gentlemen (along with their excellent students) that I would enjoy training with, and since they are IKCA affiliates, that would (in my mind) necessitate learning the material so we could have technical discussions on commonly-known ground; I come to the table with some info they may not have been exposed to, and they clearly have skills in areas in which I am defunct and out of date, but alas -- we need to have a common language to be able to speak with each other and explore new ideas/material. Mr. Meeks is quite skilled at the technical components of the IKCA material he teaches, and does a better job -- in my humble opinion -- of bringing information to life than most kenpo teachers I've met/seen over the years. I would enjoy maintaining the chance to train with the Napa gang, but I suspect that after my review of the tapes, I could expect a disinvitation from the top, down.

To interpret my review as a critique of Sullivan, the man, is a gross misinterpretation. Mr. Sullivan has a great deal of my respect for not only his senior status in kenpo, but for the honesty with which he has approached his endeavor. I've always thought Vic was a used car salesman, but have also seen him put moves to air in pre-IKCA days, and know he can move well when he puts his mind to it. My critique is not of the men, but of the technical presentation in the video series, as well as the lack of sophistication of the kenpo in the cirriculum, such as it's presented in the video series. Be specific, because I am. 

As for Mr. Parson's comment about preconcieved notions...yes, I had some assumptions going in, but was willing to suspend them for the purposes of I mentioned above around gaining a good place to train. I did not set out to confirm my suspicions, but rather to see the techniques and form so I could put it together more rapidly in sessions with Mr. Meeks & Mr. Meltzer...2 men, again, for whom I have nothing but respect.  The problem was in the presentation of the material on the tapes. NOT the men; the stuff they were putting out there, and how they did it.

As for the accusation of an ulterior motive because I mention other guys' tapes...I mentioned their tapes because there are visually noticeable differences in the quality of performance presented (now steady yourself for this one, because it is context-specific) ON THE TAPE! Screw the tapes. Go to Larry Tatum's website, and watch a few of the tips of the week. Now, keep in mind, I make fun of Larry, too. I get a kick out of the springy reverb his moves have (keep expecting to hear a spring-like "boing-oing-oing" come through the sound on the videos); however, there is also a greater deal of multiplicity -- one of the hallmarks of kenpo -- present in even his slow-mo walk-throughs, than are seen pretty much anywhere in Mr. Sullivan's tapes. I also have said in more than one place that either his (Mr. Tatum's) ego or his hair enters the room way before he does.  I have also stated many, many times, that my irreverent opinions are my own, and do not come from the (in my own opinion) great men I have had the honor to train with.

Great quote from the Dune books..."Irreverence is a necessary component for evolution; it is the only means we have left for challenging our limitations and expanding our horizons".

Let me also say...I would shudder to have some of the stuff I've done captured on video for all eternity. I've had some days (particularly in the youth of my 30's) when I was bloody ON, and unfortunately cannot find my copies of the video from that time to post for bragging rights. I've had many more nights where I've been super-glad no camera was on, because I couldn't buy a basket, so to speak. I am older, more arthritic, out of shape, and panicked about making next months rent. Video now would be fodder for the critics. So, I don't shoot any.

Finally, my compliments for Chuck and Vic are not back-handed; they are direct...you do not have to read into subtext to get that I admire the kenpo skills of each man, and ABSOLUTLEY KNOW BEYOND ANY SHADOW OF A DOUBT that they are better at what they do, then what they put down on these videos (remember the part where I said I'm sure they dumbed it down for educational purposes? Most of the Old Mans direct students missed big chunks of what he did, because it went by too fast, and they were too shy to admit they missed it and ask him to do it again....after approximately half a century under Mr. Parker, I am quite sure Mr. Sullivan is capable of creating the same data field that causes folks not to catch what he's doing...hardly productive for video training, no?).

As to not getting closer to Parker than Sullivan...does being the oldest of the ancients magically make him flawless, superior to all others? There were several from the old days who would not follow his lead, specifically around next-generation technical variations that, as the story goes, he was reluctant to go after yet again (to his merit, he stuck by Mr. Parker through several re-organizations of the system and it's politics, in times when others fled like cockroaches with a light on to pursue their own best interests). Mr. Sullivan is a kenpo master, no doubt. Senior to me, by far, for sure; and I will always greet him with a deep bow and a LEFT HAND OVER RIGHT FIST SALUTATION. But he is not the only one. And Mr. Parker was notorious for spoon-feeding different ideas to different folks; lots of fun stories out there about SGM being able to identify a persons lineage by how they did a specific technique, which supposedly was being taught the same to everyone.

Re-read my posts again; no, I didn't take the test. Nor did I fail it. And, with nearly 35 years in kenpo (27 of which were in active training, the remaining spent cruising or exploring other arts, but staying mentally engaged), I'm sure I wouldn't. Mr. Sullivans footwork is there on video for all to see who are willing to notice and comment; having been on the judges panel for kenpo/kajukenbo black belt forms at the IKC's pre-1990, I watch for these things and am hyper-critical about them...not everyone can win 1st place, and you need to be real clear on why you called what you did (so far, I haven't seen anyone have all their foot work perfect, all the time, so the fact that he has a tough time keeping his heels out during the form ain't really all that big a deal, guys). 

As for my venemous attacks on kenpo seniors...my attacks are to the kenpo on the videos. Not Mr. Sullivan; not Vic. And, by the way, based on their miserable and selfish conduct after Mr. Parkers passing, there are several Seniors deserving of venomous attacks. Even in light of my distaste for the IKCA distance-learning and testing process, and the poor quality of the kenpo on the videos, I do not place the IKCA directors in that boat. If you plan on reading my mind, get to know it first.

Best Regards,

Dave


----------



## rutherford

I enjoyed reading the review, and thank you for posting it.

But I also have some questions.  You give lots of good reasons for wanting to train with the Napa Valley guys, and feel this review may stop you from being able to do so due to politics.  So, why did you post the review?  What's your hope for it?

What's in the section of your review that you cut out of respect for the forum?  If you're going to cut a part of it, why mention it at all?

Good luck finding good training and making next month's rent.  Respect. :asian:


----------



## Carol

Nothing against Dave's review from my side.  I guess I'm just a bit confused as to the dichotomy.

Being useful in some straits is a little different than damning the whole entire medium as the most horrible thing a martial artist could ever possibly come in to contact with.

Dave sir your video training did not meet your expectations.  I'm just curious about one thing, and hope you don't mind an honest question.  I was just wondering why your expectations as high as they were to begin with?  

With full respect,
Carol


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

rutherford said:
			
		

> I enjoyed reading the review, and thank you for posting it.
> 
> But I also have some questions. You give lots of good reasons for wanting to train with the Napa Valley guys, and feel this review may stop you from being able to do so due to politics. So, why did you post the review? What's your hope for it?
> 
> What's in the section of your review that you cut out of respect for the forum? If you're going to cut a part of it, why mention it at all?
> 
> Good luck finding good training and making next month's rent. Respect. :asian:


 
In the past on MT, I have been critical of the distance-learning process, period. Regardless of who is presenting it for consumprion, kenpo is just too complex an art to be grasped by intermittent personal instruction. Even after 35 years, I can spend a half hour with a food instructor, and walk away enriched with some great information...sometimes something new, sometimes a different spin on something old. For all my criticisms of the process, I had never sat down with the videos for any length of time, and certainly never even watched one all the way through. Hence, my criticisms were procedure-based, and not content-based.

I sat out kenpo for a while after Mr. Parker passed; checking back in, & saw that quality control had gone waaaay down. Guys who were 2nds and 4ths when EKP passed were suddenly really high-ranked, influential professors. The gentleman who really deserved their places in the limelight generally stayed under the radar, focused on the good in their own backyard first, and have kept to themselves while Mr. Parkers legacy of knowledge slipped quietly south.

There are few men I respect as much as the old man, and his kenpo has been part of my world since I was knee-high to a grass-hopper. I choose to take a vocal stance against things that seem to me like a lessening of that important part of my world. Most of the men I respect now are oldsters from kenpo. Most are too kind to say "poop" if they had a mouthful, so I take it on myself to say an ugly thing, and take the heat...just to be sure it gets said.

I'm a fanatic (or, at least, used to be). While other people did team sports in grade school, I trained kenpo. In high school, while others dated, played football, homework, and prepped for the SAT's, I trained kenpo. I was a geek, and it was my drug (no computers then, or I may have got my geek on elsewhere). I remember, in high school, a kenpo guy who opened a studio...if the check cleared, the students got their next belt. Of course, they were showing up training several days a week, so they weren't entirely clueless. But there were guys wearing kenpo black belts who, at best, were around purple or blue belt levels of skill.  Irked me then; irks me now. And I feel like the distance-learning process fosters more of this kind of garbage.

So, why did I post the review?  In college, we were taught to write our papers to the "educated, but uninformed" audience. People who have done kenpo before under good tutelage may look at the IKCA offerings, gain something from it in some way, and hopefully be better for it. But I have seen too many podunk yahoos look to it for their step up the ladder to martial prestige, and mistakenly assume that the black belt they get places them in the same light as someone who gets their black belt under the live tutelage of a senior, or even 2nd-3rd gen warm body.  There are, simply, too many intricate details in kenpo for it to be learned via distance, and the simplified version used by the IKCA is producing sub-par black belts by the dozens. Don't get me wrong: There are some good ones, too. But you can't learn to body-surf without jumping in the waves, and in kenpo, you can't learn the minutae that makes it a great art via video.

As for Vic reviewing the tapes for quality control, ...I've seen some IKCA guys with a lot of red on their belts do their master forms...versions reviewed for testing, and approved...and the kenpo was miserable. I think it may be a great training aid for helping someone remember what they did in person...video-version of lecture notes. Outside of that, well...

My hope for the review? That someday, someone will take the time to do their homework, and find a school to train at, instead of remaining uninformed by buying tapes, and recruiting another uninformed neighbor as their training partner. Blind leading the blind.

Preserving the legacy of kenpo is greater than the needs of any one individual in kenpo, regardless of who that individual is, or is not.

Regards,

D.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Nothing against Dave's review from my side. I guess I'm just a bit confused as to the dichotomy.
> 
> Being useful in some straits is a little different than damning the whole entire medium as the most horrible thing a martial artist could ever possibly come in to contact with.
> 
> Dave sir your video training did not meet your expectations. I'm just curious about one thing, and hope you don't mind an honest question. I was just wondering why your expectations as high as they were to begin with?
> 
> With full respect,
> Carol


 
Carol:

I never did video training. I watched them to gain a rough understanding of the material I was hoping to train in with live instructors with decades of live experience under their belts, PRE-IKCA. Unfortunately, I couldn't get past the yucky feeling I got seeing two talented gentleman selling themselves short, and demonstrating diminished versions of something I learned as very multi-dimensional. 

My expectations were never high for people coming purely from distance-learning programs. Most defend it adamantly, without even knowing what they don't know. My expectation was to see a better job of kenpo put on tape for the permanent record by one of kenpos most elder statesmen.

Regards,

D.


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## Carol

Thanks so much Dave, I really appreciate it.  

I have a much better perspective of where you are coming from.  Thanks so much for the explanation sir.  :asian:

With full respect,
Carol


----------



## celtic_crippler

What quite literally makes me physically ill is the sheer number of people that are supposedly of high rank and of all styles and backgrounds that find it so difficult to maintain the standards of ethics they purport to adhere to. 

Every MA school on the planet claims to practice and teach humility, courtesy, and abide by a higher etiquette achieved only through self discipline. They advertise and claim to produce high calibre people through the teachings of martial arts. Most of what I find are hypocritical blow hards interested in furthering their own personal agendas. They bash other styles or people because they don't belong to their particular school, organization, or school of thought. It's like a bad "Wu-Tang-Kung-Fu" movie where rival schools are always at each others throats! 

This is especially discerning coming from anyone in the Kenpo community that claims to follow the teachings of SGM Ed Parker. From Infinite Insights: _As the Chinese Taoist Philosopher, Chuan Tzu, cautioned "Never be like the frog at the bottom of the well who when looking up at the sky thinks that the sky he sees is all there is to heaven." If we were to duplicate the word 'man' in place of the word 'frog' the quote would be much more applicable to us. Using an American quote, "A mind is like unto a parachute-- it only works when it is open." _The IKC's invited all karateka's to compete and rejoiced in the sharing of ideas and points of view for the sake of learning. I'm really disgusted by the "my dad can whup your dad" mentality I find in abundance coming from other "martial artist." 

Another quote from SGM Parker may sum it up a little better:_ "The goal of kenpo is not only to produce a skilled practicioner, but one that is respectful of all." _One would expect a level of maturity from a Kenpoist indicitive of plain old good manners. There will be styles, methods, organizations, and people that one does not agree with or see the logic of or in. Does that mean it or they are wrong? To some it does and they voice thier self-important opinions to the heavens regardless of the damage or harm it causes others. To those people I say take a good long hard look inside yourselves. Is it truely the flaws you think you see in others or is it the recognition of flaws within yourselves that prompt you to attack them?  

Call me a geek if you want, but half of being a martial artist to me means at least trying with all your heart to uphold the high values purported to be evidenced in a martial artist. No one is perfect by any means, and we all make mistakes, but it is the constant striving for a higher standard that supposedly sets us apart. 

I'm not new here BTW, I just don't post a lot....for obvious reasons. 'nuff said........ Peace.


----------



## eyebeams

Sullivan probably has fallen arches. It happens to many people as they age and it alters the dynamics of your stances so that your feet tend to turn out.

I mean, I know this is supposed to be some burning kenpo issue of the day and all, but given that the feet-out thing is an actual technical critique, it can actually be talked about without an unnecessary degree of abstraction.

In any event, if I could get a buck for every time some raging debate on technique or futile attempts at corrections boiled down to the need for orthotics, I'd have a respectable bit of change.


----------



## Flatlander

celtic_crippler said:
			
		

> One would expect a level of maturity from a Kenpoist indicitive of plain old good manners. There will be styles, methods, organizations, and people that one does not agree with or see the logic of or in. Does that mean it or they are wrong? To some it does and they voice thier self-important opinions to the heavens regardless of the damage or harm it causes others.


Well, in all fairness, does that make "them" above honest critique?  Also, let's not forget the purpose of a discussion board: we aren't all here to pat each other on the back all the time.  Personally, I see this as a place to challenge my preconceived notions, and to expand my horizons.


> No one is perfect by any means, and we all make mistakes, but it is the constant striving for a higher standard that supposedly sets us apart.


Indeed.  This is best done by a continual re-examination of our beliefs; perpetually challenging the things we know, that we may reinforce or redefine them in the pursuit of knowledge and perfection.

:asian:


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## TaiChiTJ

If your profession was a long-haul truck driver and you went back and took an introduction to driving class aimed at high school sophmores and found that it improved your skills, I would say that there was something flawed with your original skills. 



What if either the teacher or your fellow classmates described the skills you have, or the building blocks of movement that comprise the skill you have, in a completely new way that you had never heard of before? At that point the possibility exists that because of this new understanding you might develop a better way to execute the movement, or have new insights about how it fits into the total picture of multiple movements. The practitioner who is willing to hear fresh, novel descriptions concerning concepts and principles he has already had some experience with, is, in my opinion, the practitioner who is growing.


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## tshadowchaser

Folks im stepping into this thread to remind all that the thread is not about any one of you but about the tapes so please if you have positive or negitive comments on the tapes say them but refrain from attacks or remarks about anything or anyone else. I think the personalities have been discussd enough


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## Michael Billings

Let me present a different perspective of the tapes if I may.  I taught at a Shen Chuan camp last fall with Chuck Sullivan.  I had never met the man, but had heard good and bad about the tapes, promotions, etc.  I found Mr. Sullivan very knowledgable, engaging, and a positive influence at the camp.  Did he represent the Kenpo I do?  NO!  But what he did represent was where my Kenpo came from.  

I came up through a Tracy derived system, Sigung Steven LaBounty and Gary Swan's NCKKA circa 1979, through Shodan in '86.  I tested with Mr. Parker in 1989 after my instructor switched formally several years before, to the IKKA, and what Mr. Parker was doing then.  So doing American Kenpo for over 20 years now, with about 7 years of Chinese Kenpo before that.  I have seen a progression of where Mr. Parker was when the Tracy's broke off (technique based Kenpo), then where Mr. Parker's student were in the mid-80's (concept driven Kenpo), to where some of his senior students are now, flowing and relaxed in their power moving close to how Mr. Parker was circa 1990.

Just sharing my perspective.  Chuck Sullivan and I spent time talking about the history of his training, you all know how limited the curriculum was in the early 60's or late 50's, it has grown exponentially yearly.  Mr. Sullivan shared Mr. Parker's perception of the video medium, and presents this was done with his full permission and he was invited to partner in the project.  What I was told was that some Black Belts in his association were great, other's not so great.  The good ones trained at one of the schools and had bodies to bang around.  They were not the pure video tape students.  Further, they required students to be seen in person for Black ... at least at the time that is what I was told, and I have no reason to disbelieve it.  

I personally think tapes are an adjunct to training which cannot replace a teacher's immediate feedback and coaching.  You can only go so far with the tapes, and the technology is improving all the time.  I saw a new DVD they did with Edmund Jr. and it was far superior to anything I have seen on the old tapes.  

Regardless of your opinion, you have to respect Dave's courage in posting a review that could potentially alienate a bunch of people.  Likewise, the loyalty some feel for any senior, whether they know them or not, is laudable.  You should really know who you are talking to when challenging their opinions, and it is always ok to disagree.  But to have interpretted the original post as having "failed" a test, was in the nature of a personal attack.  Please refrain from that (I am asking as a member, not an Admin).

Thanks for all the discussion, it is like the old days and why I enjoy this forum so much.

Kudos All,
-Michael


----------



## Hand Sword

Could it just be that the tapes were created for those who didn't know anything, and had to be simplified for understanding? Anyone with years of training would probably find them boring, or lacking. I guess look at it from a newbie point of view. Are they then legitimate?


----------



## Jonathan Randall

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Could it just be that the tapes were created for those who didn't know anything, and had to be simplified for understanding? Anyone with years of training would probably find them boring, or lacking. I guess look at it from a newbie point of view. Are they then legitimate?


 
Ah, hard to say, because, while simplified, I don't believe that you can learn Karate only from video - and the most successful IKCA Black Belts didn't, in my experience. It's kind of a Catch-22, to be successful, IMO, with their program you need to have some prior formal training, but if you've had much prior formal training, they are not so useful as they are a simplified Kenpo style. Where they fill the gap, again IMO, are for "orphaned" Kenpo stylists who need (or feel they need) recognition and support from an association with legitimate, proven lineage.

Are they legitimate? Yes, but understand that there is a real stigma associated with video testing. However, for some people that is the only option and nailing them for it is unfair, IMO.


----------



## Hand Sword

I agree, no one should be slammed. It's honorable IMO that they take time to train at all. If all there is, is video training, at least it gets the ball rolling. Someone showing an interest shouldn't be attacked or stigmatized. 

On a side note, it seems like the stigma thing isn't just for video training. It seems to apply across the board, teachers, styles, dojos, etc.. It's a real shame!


----------



## MJS

IMHO, the video training issue has been re-hashed countless times.  There are thousands of martial artists out there, ranging from various Japanese arts to Kenpo to MMA/Grappling to Kenpo, and many others, who put out video tapes.  My opinion on dvds/tapes has always and will always be the same:  The are good for a reference tool *only* nothing more, nothing less!  

Personally, I don't see how testing from a tape is any more productive than actually learning from one.  If someone watching a tape can't find the subtle fine points, how is someone grading you going to be able to do the same?  

However, everyone is entitle to his/her own thoughts, own ways of training, etc.  That being sad, some will like them and some will not.  If someone wants to train with them, no matter what anyone says, I highly doubt we could change that person, and thats fine.  To each his own.

This is obviously a hot topic, and often emotions flow without giving any thought to whats being said.  Perhaps we should step back for a moment, take a deep breath and try to discuss things without too much fuel being added to the fire.:asian: 

Mike


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## KenpoDave

I have read and participated in discussions about the IKCA for years.  I always come back to..."the proof is in the pudding."  At this point, there are actual schools where the instructors are trained in the IKCA curriculum, so it would appear that the IKCA curriculum is available both via the medium of video, and in a school atmosphere.

So, my opinion, at this point in time, is that as the IKCA evolves, perhaps the criticism of the medium and the curriculum should evolve.

How is the kenpo of the IKCA black belts?  As a group, are they better, about the same, or worse than the other options of kenpo training available?  Because we are all critical of the style that is not the one we feel is best for us.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

celtic_crippler said:
			
		

> What quite literally makes me physically ill is the sheer number of people that are supposedly of high rank and of all styles and backgrounds that find it so difficult to maintain the standards of ethics they purport to adhere to.
> 
> Every MA school on the planet claims to practice and teach humility, courtesy, and abide by a higher etiquette achieved only through self discipline. They advertise and claim to produce high calibre people through the teachings of martial arts. Most of what I find are hypocritical blow hards interested in furthering their own personal agendas. They bash other styles or people because they don't belong to their particular school, organization, or school of thought. It's like a bad "Wu-Tang-Kung-Fu" movie where rival schools are always at each others throats!
> 
> This is especially discerning coming from anyone in the Kenpo community that claims to follow the teachings of SGM Ed Parker. From Infinite Insights: _As the Chinese Taoist Philosopher, Chuan Tzu, cautioned "Never be like the frog at the bottom of the well who when looking up at the sky thinks that the sky he sees is all there is to heaven." If we were to duplicate the word 'man' in place of the word 'frog' the quote would be much more applicable to us. Using an American quote, "A mind is like unto a parachute-- it only works when it is open." _The IKC's invited all karateka's to compete and rejoiced in the sharing of ideas and points of view for the sake of learning. I'm really disgusted by the "my dad can whup your dad" mentality I find in abundance coming from other "martial artist."
> 
> Another quote from SGM Parker may sum it up a little better:_ "The goal of kenpo is not only to produce a skilled practicioner, but one that is respectful of all." _One would expect a level of maturity from a Kenpoist indicitive of plain old good manners. There will be styles, methods, organizations, and people that one does not agree with or see the logic of or in. Does that mean it or they are wrong? To some it does and they voice thier self-important opinions to the heavens regardless of the damage or harm it causes others. To those people I say take a good long hard look inside yourselves. Is it truely the flaws you think you see in others or is it the recognition of flaws within yourselves that prompt you to attack them?
> 
> Call me a geek if you want, but half of being a martial artist to me means at least trying with all your heart to uphold the high values purported to be evidenced in a martial artist. No one is perfect by any means, and we all make mistakes, but it is the constant striving for a higher standard that supposedly sets us apart.
> 
> I'm not new here BTW, I just don't post a lot....for obvious reasons. 'nuff said........ Peace.


 
You really are missing who I am in all of this, ain'tcha? I am glad you feel as strongly about defending your principles and standing up for what you believe in as I do.  Lots in your post that misses moi.


Regards,

dave


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## KenpoDave

Dr. Dave,

Perhaps I missed this in your original post, but it goes along with mine:

Your friends at the school in Napa...do they teach mainly from the IKCA curriculum, or is it simply a part of their school?  Is your critique primarily of the video method of IKCA, or of IKCA in general?


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Dr. Dave,
> 
> Perhaps I missed this in your original post, but it goes along with mine:
> 
> Your friends at the school in Napa...do they teach mainly from the IKCA curriculum, or is it simply a part of their school? Is your critique primarily of the video method of IKCA, or of IKCA in general?


 
Mr. Meeks & Mr. Meltzer have closely affiliated their school with the IKCA. In addition to IKCA kenpo, they have taken an eclectic approach similar to one I took with a couple studios I had some years back: They have added some FMA, JKD, BJJ and Israeli combatives to their kenpo. Both are lifelong martial artists with rich backgrounds, and they draw on those backgrounds freely and well to enliven the material and add depth to what they teach.

Both have invested enough time, commitment and psychic energy into their training to be excellent regardless of what they presented, I believe (in almost 20 years, Mr. Meltzer is the first to have immediately noticed, and commented on, my being "bladed" in sparring/drilling...accentuating the edges of bone so that the attacker hurts themsevles on me. Can't tell you how many guys I've drilled with who got sore, but didn't get why). 

Each class open with an IKCA technique of the week, so to speak. After training the tech a bit, JKD drills and FMA hand patterns are explored seperately at first, then as a way to graft into the technique for greater efficiency. I like this approach a lot better for motion training then the usual "so you're standing there, and all of a sudden you happen to find yourself in this position...here's the self defense technique for that".

The IKCA technique lists are on the walls over the mirrors, so that they represent the core of the material. They are the material used to go from belt to belt, but they are not the only stuff trained there. Mr. Meeks has also had previous kenpo & jujutsu training; he likes the simplicity of the IKCA cirriculum for some of the reasons Chuck & Vic state they started it: To make it easier for students to own material better, because there's less of it to learn, so more time to explore and master it. In a previous incarnation as a kenpo teacher on my own, I trimmed some of the EPAK requirements for this very reason...as the saying from Amadaeus went, "too many note for the royal ear". I later added them back in, based on some ideas eloquently related by Mr. Hale on another thread...it is for the students to decide what to leave behind or what to specialize in; it is my job to make sure they have all the content so they can make that choice, and in turn, pass that choice on to future generations of kenpoists.

My critique is mainly of the video method, and in this particular thread, the specific content of the video's kenpo-wise. I've been sitting reviewing some video of classes I taped w/ other kenpo seniors, and the quality of the technology...important point here...THE TECHNOLOGY...is radically mo' bettah. My own sesne of the tech level of the kenpo in the IKCA tapes is that it's a prolongation of white through purple level stuff, kept simple for propagation purposes; the more technical stuff is, in my mind, really impossible to pass on without the person-to-person interaction of warm-body instruction, and has apparently been left out.

As for the IKCA...if it was just a couple of 1st gens who broke off to do their own thing, they wouldn't be any different than 3 dozen others who pre-dated them in that move before Mr. Parkers passing, and tens of dozens who have done that since. I just know that there is better technology in kenpo than what's represented in the tapes; I also know, in my bones, that video instruction and testing cannot catch the nuances that matter and make the difference. Those are my contentions. The martial content of the videos is lower level than either man was capable of at the time of production; even for distance learning, I just think they should have held the bar higher for themselves, and for their students. Anyone could re-shuffle the kenpo deck, and call it theirs. Happens all the time. I just prefer it when the re-shuffling continues to include some of the higher-end concepts that make it such a rich and brilliant art.  Now, they may make touring circuits to pass some of this on or add it in to folks on the road, but there's a real difference with internalization to have seen it for the first time as an intermediate or upper belt, versus having been raised with it from the git-go.

I don't even hold it against them for trying to make a buck off thier knowledge or ideas; too many great martial artists have died poor, and any who can find a way not to, should. I just simply think their should have been higher order content, which I know they both are more than capable of.

I hope that addresses your question(s).

Regards,

Dave


----------



## KenpoDave

Yes, it does.  Thanks.


----------



## Wild Bill

I am no expert in Kenpo but I have visited many different commercial schools. If the students in this link are representative of the system as a whole then I would say that the IKCA is no better or worse than any other commercial system. http://www.kenpohomestudycourse.com/kenpo/evolutionhi.htm I own the orange belt tape and I think it is very good instruction for beginners. I have had an opportunity to watch Fred Villari's tapes. There is more instruction in the IKCA orange belt tape than the entire Villari series. 

I believe that you can't become an expert fighter just by watching videos. That is also true of many commercial schools. It is also important to remember that belt rank is completely subjective. Standards change from style to style and teacher to teacher. An IKCA black belt lives up to the standards of IKCA. An IKKA black belt lives up to the standards of IKKA. Argueing is pretty pointless. I don't worry about what other people are doing. It's none of my business. I just train and enjoy.


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## Hand Sword

Great point! If you are happy in your training then that's it. That's all that matters really. To each, their own!


----------



## Ray

One of my students almost went with the IKCA (before he found me; we're in a rural area) and he has the vids.  I watched them...the thought occurred to me (just for a minute) that I could teach IKCA material as "kenpo lite" in addition to EPAK... then I thought the better of it.  

I didn't really see much problem with Mr. Sullivan. some of the techniques taught are pretty similar (go figure)---I'm sure I saw "5 swords" with closed fists; I saw a variation of the Tracy System "anvil"

LaRouix (sp?) on the other hand, I don't know what it was; but he just bugged me on the old tapes... I don't know, something just bothered me about that guy: the way he moved, the way he talked and the way he carried himself.  In the newer tapes and in a couple other vids I've seen of him, he doesn't bug me as much.  Of course, I've never met the guy in person, so how can I really be making a good judgment?  

I would always recommend that a student get a live teacher.  So much of what martial artists do has to be felt to get right.  But that's just my opinion.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Ray said:
			
		

> One of my students almost went with the IKCA (before he found me; we're in a rural area) and he has the vids. I watched them...the thought occurred to me (just for a minute) that I could teach IKCA material as "kenpo lite" in addition to EPAK... then I thought the better of it.
> 
> I didn't really see much problem with Mr. Sullivan. some of the techniques taught are pretty similar (go figure)---I'm sure I saw "5 swords" with closed fists; I saw a variation of the Tracy System "anvil"
> 
> LaRouix (sp?) on the other hand, I don't know what it was; but he just bugged me on the old tapes... I don't know, something just bothered me about that guy: the way he moved, the way he talked and the way he carried himself. In the newer tapes and in a couple other vids I've seen of him, he doesn't bug me as much. Of course, I've never met the guy in person, so how can I really be making a good judgment?
> 
> I would always recommend that a student get a live teacher. So much of what martial artists do has to be felt to get right. But that's just my opinion.


 
I got the same feeling about Vic.  Also about Larry Tatum.  I thought about it for a long time....  Then I realized it was the haircuts!  I am jealous of all their hair.


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## Hand Sword

Maybe thats why they look so fast! It's the way the hair flows, when they're moving. It adds to the dramatic effect.


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## Jonathan Randall

Ray said:
			
		

> One of my students almost went with the IKCA (before he found me; we're in a rural area) and he has the vids. I watched them...the thought occurred to me (just for a minute) that I could teach IKCA material as "kenpo lite" in addition to EPAK... then I thought the better of it.
> 
> I didn't really see much problem with Mr. Sullivan. some of the techniques taught are pretty similar (go figure)---I'm sure I saw "5 swords" with closed fists; I saw a variation of the Tracy System "anvil"
> 
> LaRouix (sp?) on the other hand, I don't know what it was; but he just bugged me on the old tapes... I don't know, something just bothered me about that guy: the way he moved, the way he talked and the way he carried himself. In the newer tapes and in a couple other vids I've seen of him, he doesn't bug me as much. Of course, I've never met the guy in person, so how can I really be making a good judgment?
> 
> I would always recommend that a student get a live teacher. So much of what martial artists do has to be felt to get right. But that's just my opinion.


 
I don't necessarily disagree with your appraisal of the IKCA system, but I have had a number of conversations with Vic LeRoux and found him to be a highly personable and knowledgeable martial artist. Again, I have no personal opinion on the IKCA program, but I think that people should be more concerned with WHAT they do and less concerned with what OTHERS do.


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## Hand Sword

Amen!  :asian:


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## Ronin Moose

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> I don't necessarily disagree with your appraisal of the IKCA system, but I have had a number of conversations with Vic LeRoux and found him to be a highly personable and knowledgeable martial artist. Again, I have no personal opinion on the IKCA program, but I think that people should be more concerned with WHAT they do and less concerned with what OTHERS do.


 
Well said!  If its not for you then don't do it; just move on and let these folks be.  After all, this isn't *KENPONET.  *LOL!


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## James Kovacich

Wild Bill said:
			
		

> I am no expert in Kenpo but I have visited many different commercial schools. If the students in this link are representative of the system as a whole then I would say that the IKCA is no better or worse than any other commercial system. http://www.kenpohomestudycourse.com/kenpo/evolutionhi.htm I own the orange belt tape and I think it is very good instruction for beginners. I have had an opportunity to watch Fred Villari's tapes. There is more instruction in the IKCA orange belt tape than the entire Villari series.
> 
> I believe that you can't become an expert fighter just by watching videos. That is also true of many commercial schools. It is also important to remember that belt rank is completely subjective. Standards change from style to style and teacher to teacher. An IKCA black belt lives up to the standards of IKCA. An IKKA black belt lives up to the standards of IKKA. Argueing is pretty pointless. I don't worry about what other people are doing. It's none of my business. I just train and enjoy.


 
What I see as interesting in one can learn techniques where they they can strike an opponent 4, 5 or more times without the opponent moving not even an inch and when they did move it was compliant to the techniques.

I think the "untramans" movement was more realistic but not enough. But it proves that one good strike (with a realistic reaction from the opponent) by itself would change the techniques agles, foot placement, shuffling and so on. That may be where the grafting comes in but it dosen't change the fact the training that is happening is lacking the needed contact to make it realisticly effective.


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## AmericanKenpoChris

Gotta have the "kenpullet."  I judge the authenticity of my kenpo by the kenpullet (kenpo-mullet).  If it's lacking, I would be weary.

My 4 year old niece said that my hair is getting a little long in the back, and I am starting to look like butt-rock.  One day we were watching old hair-metal videos, and I said uncle Chris used to listen to "butt-rock."

But seriously, if my video instructor doesn't have kenpullet, skullet, femullet, beaver paddle, business in the front-party in the back, camaro-cut, a number 7, etc., then no dice...


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

AmericanKenpoChris said:
			
		

> Gotta have the "kenpullet." I judge the authenticity of my kenpo by the kenpullet (kenpo-mullet). If it's lacking, I would be weary.
> 
> My 4 year old niece said that my hair is getting a little long in the back, and I am starting to look like butt-rock. One day we were watching old hair-metal videos, and I said uncle Chris used to listen to "butt-rock."
> 
> But seriously, if my video instructor doesn't have kenpullet, skullet, femullet, beaver paddle, business in the front-party in the back, camaro-cut, a number 7, etc., then no dice...


 
As someone who wore a mullet/pony-tail and handle-bar mustache "back in the day", I resemble that remark. (lord, I miss my hair).

Dave


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