# skk forms principles



## marlon

1 Kata
Sequence 1: Left front kick right reverse punch (repeated opposite side)

Sequence 2: Turn ccw to face 6:00 Cross block upward, left low block, right thrust punch

Sequence 3: Facing 10:00Cross block downward close fisted, grab ,swing arms to right side of the body shoulder level hieght as left foot meets right facing 12:00, right leg steps out into a horse stance facing 12:00 as the arms swing to the left side of the body shoulder level 

Sequence 4: facing 12:00 Circle hands counter clockwise coming to rest with left hand forming knife hand at face level and right arm over head in upward block position with open hand palm facing out

Sequence 5: facing 9:00 Double knife blocks, open cup and saucer (hidden hands) right spear poke

Sequence 6: facing 6:00 Right Dropping palm, left palm heel, right front kick 

Sequence 7: Turn ccw to face 12:00 with left outward block then left back 2 knuckle then right foot meets left and cup and saucer on the left look right and  simultaneous back fist side kick (repeated on either side)




I hope you do not mind that i hijacked your 1 kata with a few changes.

The opening sequence has the principle of hiding while striking.  Until this form i was taught the pinans from a fist on ribs position, however the kata's are all with guards up.
the sequence after the punch kicks is where we encounter the principle of sink and draw away before a response.  this teaches a form of stabilizing yourself in response to a situation or attack rather than just throwing your self out there arms and legs flying.  It is found in many of the kata's...but only once in sho tung kwa.
also both sequences teach the high low / low high attack prevelant in kempo
just some starter thoughts.  i would love to hear others and discussions due to differences of opinion are great teachers.  Again, do not bother to worry about my ego, i am here to share and learn and everything i said could be crap...i may ask you to prove it so, though...

respectfully,
Marlon


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## JTKenpo

I believe 1 kata to be a great outlook on Kempo, especially the opening sequence.  The underlying principle I teach in the opening sequence is that we always want to drive our attacker backwards and/or keep them off balance.  

With the second sequence I reenforce that every block is a strike and every strike a block.  The cross block, although defensive, becomes offensive by striking the elbow to hyperextend.

Marlon you had posted aways back about the sequence of dropping into horse with the low cross block and that the low horse is unnecessary.  In application I agree whole heartedly and that it is teaching us to drop our weight using what AK calls Marriage of Gravity.  I believe the dropping into horse is kind of like *bolding text*, its not necessary it just points and says "look here!".

Great Thread Marlon, I look forward to sharing thoughts!  And again if you agree or do not agree with my thoughts I don't care, just offer something of your own "for the better understanding and application of kempo".

JT


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## marlon

JTKenpo said:


> I believe 1 kata to be a great outlook on Kempo, especially the opening sequence. The underlying principle I teach in the opening sequence is that we always want to drive our attacker backwards and/or keep them off balance.
> 
> With the second sequence I reenforce that every block is a strike and every strike a block. The cross block, although defensive, becomes offensive by striking the elbow to hyperextend.
> 
> Marlon you had posted aways back about the sequence of dropping into horse with the low cross block and that the low horse is unnecessary. In application I agree whole heartedly and that it is teaching us to drop our weight using what AK calls Marriage of Gravity. I believe the dropping into horse is kind of like *bolding text*, its not necessary it just points and says "look here!".
> 
> Great Thread Marlon, I look forward to sharing thoughts! And again if you agree or do not agree with my thoughts I don't care, just offer something of your own "for the better understanding and application of kempo".
> 
> JT


 

Marriage of gravity, i agree completely!  my comment in the other thread about not needing the horse stance nor so low was in context of application.  this is one of the AK vocabulary that i have appropriated for SK.  I think there may be more to it though, bnut i am not familiar enough yet to be sure.
i enjoy your input JT and look forward to more from you and anyone else

marlon


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## JTKenpo

Marriage of Gravity (as defined in the Encyclopedia of Kenpo by Ed Parker) - The uniting of mind, breath and strength while simultaneously dropping your body weight along with the execution of your natural weapon(s).  Timing all of these factors with the dropping of your body weight greatly adds to the force of your strikes.  This combined action literally causes a marriage of gravity, and makes vertical use of BODY MOMENTUM while employing the dimension of HEIGHT.


AK has helped me tremendously with my kenpo.  All though I do have to say for me (all the AK practitioners can throw rotten veggies at me now) it can get a little too tedious with respect to naming every little thing and being a little too specific in doing such.  I am NOT saying that SGM Parker should have done anything differently or that his system is flawed because of this I am only stating my opinion on how American Kenpo influences what I teach.  

That got a little off topic sorry.

JT


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## DavidCC

I started down that same path about 2.5 years ago wth my SKK.

It has been 90% positive.

I am only recently starting to make progress with stances.  half-moon stance - hips are square to 12, neutral bow, they are at 45.  It was inconceivable how much this changes things.

Their terminology is very useful.

In Infinite Insights Mr. Parker makes it very clear that he is writing not for AK but for all Ks. (and all arts really).

Don't try to shoe-horn SKK into AK, but if an idea from SKK can be given a name from AK thatn that is low-hanging fruit for sure.

but some of it can be misleading.  For exampe the force generated by gravity's acceleration is NOT the point of MoG.  Think about the length of time that gravity has to exert it's acceleration on the fraction of your total mass you can get moving in a relevant diretion... fall from 18 inches or 18 feet which hurts and which does not? why?

Terms which have "common" definition sometimes have very specific kenpo dfinitions that might slightly differ from the common usage.

Here is my latest insight, thanks to Pete Starr - there is a cat stance in the middle of a half-moon step. now the squared-up HM can get some hip rotation on the step.  AK approaches this COMPLETELY differently (forward bow, step-through crossover etc).

rambling, too much SQL today


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## JTKenpo

David, I'm not really sure where you are going with this post. Although the cat stance within a halfmoon should have been pointed out in the first move of one pinion as you draw into cat toward 9 oclock and then halfmoon into left half moon stance. Please don't take this as a derogatory comment, I'm just confused by your post. sorry


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## Hand Sword

All of the concepts and principles from AK do cross to SKK and can be applied to all arts, as they are based on scientific principles etc.. The only area that AK differs from SKK is in terminology for techniques. The techniques are universal. At least that's how I've seen it through my experience.


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## marlon

Although this does not quite fit on this thread, what is the benefit of having the hips angled off to 45 degrees when you are applying force to 12:00?  Do you use a fighting stance in your kempo?  a forward stance?  A cat stance in the halfmoon...i generally do not include transitions as stances...too many micro moments for my head to make it relevant..but perhaps i am misunderstanding..i have not read Infinite Insights yet..and the way it seems with all quasi religious documents those who come after interpret it from thier own ( i want to say agenda but do not want to insult anyone).  Anyeho, i am trying to understand .  you have found something that works well for you so i am for it!!  Can you explain it a little more.  Perhaps a thread of SKK using Infitie Insights would be in order and very helpful

respectfully,
Marlon


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## kidswarrior

marlon said:


> Although this does not quite fit on this thread, what is the benefit of having the hips angled off to 45 degrees when you are applying force to 12:00?  Do you use a fighting stance in your kempo?  a forward stance?  A cat stance in the halfmoon...i generally do not include transitions as stances...too many micro moments for my head to make it relevant..but perhaps i am misunderstanding..i have not read Infinite Insights yet..and the way it seems with all quasi religious documents those who come after interpret it from thier own ( i want to say agenda but do not want to insult anyone).  Anyeho, i am trying to understand .  you have found something that works well for you so i am for it!!  Can you explain it a little more.  *Perhaps a thread of SKK using Infitie Insights would be in order and very helpful*
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


I would wholeheartedly support this. I have the books, but haven't found time (read: been forced ) to delve into them to any real depth yet. Such a thread would be really beneficial for me. 



> 1 Kata
> Sequence 1: Left front kick right reverse punch (repeated opposite side)


 The one thing I started emphasizing awhile back was Iain Abernethy's Kata principle, that a returning hand is meant to have something in it. So I try to teach my guys to think in terms of having a handful of shirt in that returning fist, pulling opponent into second kick. Wouldn't always work out in a real situation, but if they practice it, it could mean unbalancing that one opponent which would make a difference in the outcome.



> Sequence 2: Turn ccw to face 6:00 Cross block upward, left low block, right thrust punch


Using the same concept, the first time we tried making this turn with the 12:00 opponent's shirt/upper arm/or neck in that right hand, it became a powerful throw (often over the hip)--and usually right into his 6:00 friend.

Anyway, just a thought.


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## JTKenpo

Kidswarrior got us back on point...nice job.

I like the fist full of shirt with the returning hand, that is a great concept.  Another use I have seen on a cup and saucer is using it as a downward parry.  

When we start to delve into the form principles one of the key things I point out is that many forms have sets within them, one kata  being no exception.  These sets are reminding us over and over and over that you should not practice techniques on one side only, but rather become as close to ambidexturous as possible.  These sets remind us that "if you can do it with the right you can do it with the left"


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## kidswarrior

JTKenpo said:


> Kidswarrior got us back on point...nice job.


Thanks.



> I like the fist full of shirt with the returning hand, that is a great concept. Another use I have seen on *a cup and saucer* is using it *as a downward parry*.


Interesting idea. I like it.



> When we start to delve into the form principles one of the key things I point out is that many forms have sets within them, one kata being no exception. These sets are reminding us over and over and over that you should not practice techniques on one side only, but rather *become as close to ambidexturous as possible*. These sets remind us that "if you can do it with the right you can do it with the left"


Another good point.


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## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> David, I'm not really sure where you are going with this post. Although the cat stance within a halfmoon should have been pointed out in the first move of one pinion as you draw into cat toward 9 oclock and then halfmoon into left half moon stance. Please don't take this as a derogatory comment, I'm just confused by your post. sorry


 
No prob, but I don't mean use the cat while turning from 12 to 9. 
I mean half-moon stepping straight ahead, from left half moon facing 12 to right half moon facing 12.



marlon said:


> Although this does not quite fit on this thread, what is the benefit of having the hips angled off to 45 degrees when you are applying force to 12:00? Do you use a fighting stance in your kempo? a forward stance? A cat stance in the halfmoon...i generally do not include transitions as stances...too many micro moments for my head to make it relevant..but perhaps i am misunderstanding..


 
At the moment I begin my punch, if my hips are squared up to my target, I can't get my core strength or lower platform (legs) into the punch.  The twisting of the hips adds to the power.  For maximum effect, the hips need to rotate from 45 off target to facing target.  AK uses the neurtral bow stance, which has the hips angled 45 degrees (1:30 or 10:30) and for a rear-hand punch they rotate the hips (and rear foot) to 12. SKK uses the half-moon stance which has the hips oriented to 12.

So, while stepping forward with the right foot, (and this is just something I've been playing with,) try turning the toes of the right foot to 130 as it passes the left foot, let the hip be relaxed so it turns with the foot, then step forward and punch ending up all at 12.

A "fighting stance"?  Well, we do "spar", where we square up like kickboxers and play.  In those games I use a right or left neutral bow.  If attacked unexpectedly then NO I don't have a fighting stance, really.  You know the techniques as well as I do or better even  so I don't have to explain how stances are used.  

In katas, the half moon stance and step is used extensively.  The execution of a single maneuver (step-thru punch) can be isolated and perfected in kata, then wherever a technique or a situation calls for that maneuver, atomically, you have it.  So, looking at the step through punch using the half-moon, I came to these conclusions.


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## DavidCC

Hand Sword said:


> All of the concepts and principles from AK do cross to SKK and can be applied to all arts, as they are based on scientific principles etc.. The only area that AK differs from SKK is in terminology for techniques. The techniques are universal. At least that's how I've seen it through my experience.


 


marlon said:


> i have not read Infinite Insights yet..and the way it seems with all quasi religious documents those who come after interpret it from thier own ( i want to say agenda but do not want to insult anyone). Anyeho, i am trying to understand . you have found something that works well for you so i am for it!! Can you explain it a little more. Perhaps a thread of SKK using Infitie Insights would be in order and very helpful
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


I've read it a few times. Once real fast because I just got it and didn't know anything about kempo. Then slower so that I could understand what it means. Now I just cherry pick pieces of interest. I recommend it.





Hand Sword said:


> All of the concepts and principles from AK do cross to SKK and can be applied to all arts, as they are based on scientific principles etc..


 
Welllllll, mostly I guess. I think AK specifies and delineates many things that, if taught to SKK students, they could understand and even identify within what they are already doing, even if the ideas are not part of their curriculum there is a common ground. I think AK's techniques are more carefully architected to teach specific ideas in layers whereas SKK's are more traditional (we do them because we do them) and there is less systematic exploration of ideas in a strategic fashion. So in SKK many ideas are left out or left to be interpolated by the students.




Hand Sword said:


> The only area that AK differs from SKK is in terminology for techniques. The techniques are universal. At least that's how I've seen it through my experience.


 
there are stances and blocks within each system that are not used in the other. But I could probably describe a ballet as kenpo techniques so I'm not sure what you mean by "universal".

You can 'translate' things from one into the language of the other but it is confusing. "right neutral bow" = "horse stance facing 1030 while looking to 12" which, really, is dysfunctional becasue I just gave you 2 directions for you to be "facing" and how can you have any kind of intent / focus without understanding which direction you are facing?

In Ak terms a left half moon is a "modified left forward bow" and the AK guys will be wondering why would you be standing in a transitional stance like that? And depending on the lineage that might not even describe it...

but overall I really HAVE had TONS of benefit from studying what these American Kenpo people do. Where I have had less success is in trying to map it too specifically to SKK.


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## LawDog

Most impacting techniques are the same, they just follow different flow patterns. The differences usually show when Judo/Jujitsu techniques have been inserted into the impacting patterns.
Tacticle theory transends into all styles, pure theory is boundless.
Tis cool  
:ultracool


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## marlon

DavidCC said:


> No prob, but I don't mean use the cat while turning from 12 to 9.
> I mean half-moon stepping straight ahead, from left half moon facing 12 to right half moon facing 12.
> 
> 
> 
> At the moment I begin my punch, if my hips are squared up to my target, I can't get my core strength or lower platform (legs) into the punch. The twisting of the hips adds to the power. For maximum effect, the hips need to rotate from 45 off target to facing target. AK uses the neurtral bow stance, which has the hips angled 45 degrees (1:30 or 10:30) and for a rear-hand punch they rotate the hips (and rear foot) to 12. SKK uses the half-moon stance which has the hips oriented to 12.
> 
> 
> 
> the square on half moon stance is an end \product showing the directional end point for the generated power, however all movement is directed through the waist the way i teach it.  i do not stop then punch in my forms and if i am not "moving" when i strike then there is motion from the waist that directs the power.
> 
> 
> 
> So, while stepping forward with the right foot, (and this is just something I've been playing with,) try turning the toes of the right foot to 130 as it passes the left foot, let the hip be relaxed so it turns with the foot, then step forward and punch ending up all at 12.
> 
> A "fighting stance"? Well, we do "spar", where we square up like kickboxers and play. In those games I use a right or left neutral bow. If attacked unexpectedly then NO I don't have a fighting stance, really. You know the techniques as well as I do or better even  so I don't have to explain how stances are used.
> 
> 
> [COLOR="Blue"]As much as possible practice the way you intend to fight...this includes the forms.  This is why i train the kata's with a guard and a fighting stance mostly...all other stances are utilitarian in nature and transitory
> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> In katas, the half moon stance and step is used extensively. The execution of a single maneuver (step-thru punch) can be isolated and perfected in kata, then wherever a technique or a situation calls for that maneuver, atomically, you have it. So, looking at the step through punch using the half-moon, I came to these conclusions.


 


i see what you see i have just been taught differently and practice differently.  The half moons are more traditional and so i keep them as part of the Okinawan heritage we have fromn Prof.Cerio but are not kempo proper so outside of these training tools i do not use the stance.  Half mooning as a stepping method is a different question all together but need not end in a traditional half moon stance.  And,. although i shift my wieght entirely to one leg as i transit i would not consider it a cat stance  and i only use the cat stance as a functional transitory stance and a training tool not a fighting stance.


i messed up with the multiquoting so my responses are in blue. Apologies
respectfully,
Marlon


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## DavidCC

"although i shift my wieght entirely to one leg as i transit i would not consider it a cat stance and i only use the cat stance as a functional transitory stance and a training tool not a fighting stance."

The very specific thing I am referring to hear i what are your hips doing while that weight is on the one foot. I'm suggesting that you turn your hips so that, for that split second, you are in a 45 cat. it is exactly a 'transitory stance'.

"if i am not "moving" when i strike then there is motion from the waist that directs the power"

I am talking about both moving forward and torquing from the waist together, not one or the other  maybe I misunderstand you here.


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## JTKenpo

Lets see what was the title of this thread, oh thats right skk forms principles.....did we ever get past one kata?

Ok two kata....the opening teaches us that when stepping backward block with the opposite hand.  This is also the form where we start to deal with diaganols, 45 deg, the corners of the box, etc.  

I always thought it was odd that we had to wait until advanced blue (blue with stripe) to delve into these two concepts.  None the less its a start.


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## marlon

2 kata the beginning of fighting while moving backwards!!!

Marlon


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## DavidCC

marlon said:


> 2 kata the beginning of fighting while moving backwards!!!
> 
> Marlon


 
doesn't combo 7 move backwards?

mebbe my 7 is different, maybe it comes earlier for us... but that yellow belt tech starts with moving backwards on a diagonal.


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## JTKenpo

It is the first form which moves backwards while fighting.


What else does 2 kata hold in the way of principles?  

I can think of line reinforcement.  The act of moving up and back on the same line either in the same direction or opposite.  2 kata has both.

What else?


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## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> It is the first form which moves backwards while fighting.
> 
> 
> What else does 2 kata hold in the way of principles?
> 
> I can think of line reinforcement. The act of moving up and back on the same line either in the same direction or opposite. 2 kata has both.
> 
> What else?


 
That's interesting and I can't wait to get home to see what you mean.


But I have to wonder, do ideas like this make for a better probability of success if attacked?


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## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> But I have to wonder, do ideas like this make for a better probability of success if attacked?


 
It doesn't really have to do with better success. In two kata after the side kick and step up to 1:30.  If you draw a line from 1:30 to 7:30 the next few sequences move up and down this line.  The first sequence moves on this line forward then back then forward again always facing 1:30 then the turn to 7:30 and defending against 7:30.  This movement on the line from 1:30 to 7:30 is line reenforcement, so it is more of an understanding of motion than a better application for success if attacked.


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## RevIV

Beg. of 2 kata -- defense against the beginning of 1 kata. you can keep doing the 2 back and forth against a partner continously.  
Jesse


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## DavidCC

nvm


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## marlon

DavidCC said:


> doesn't combo 7 move backwards?
> 
> mebbe my 7 is different, maybe it comes earlier for us... but that yellow belt tech starts with moving backwards on a diagonal.


 
we slip the punch to the side with more of a shift in wieght and head movement and then kick the ribs or knee..so not really backwards for us

marlon


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## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> we slip the punch to the side with more of a shift in wieght and head movement and then kick the ribs or knee..so not really backwards for us
> 
> marlon


 
Same here, we slip. The idea we use is that #7 is used when there is not enough time to deploy #6. If there is time to step, there is time to kick ... at least that is how we look at it. Of course a retreating step could be seen the same. Stepping back to buy time with which to deploy the kick. But for us, it's a weight shift and head movement, much like a boxer.


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## marlon

2 kata also uses more counter strikes with the arm that blocks.  Although we teach the natural strikes at yellow the forms up until 2 kata usually strikes with the opposite hand than the one that blocks.  This is a major kempo principle.  It is also the first form where we do more than one kick without stepping down.  Becuase of the various angles and reversals i find that there are many throws after strikes in 2 kata and this too is a predominate characteristic of sk (and very different from AK)...but perhaps i am reverse engineering too much here to say this is a principle inherent in the form.  We also block and punch simultaneously in this form which is new for the student here and marry a circular movenment with a linear one which is also new but becomes more predominate at the advanced belts.  2 kata is a pre introduction to many of the concepts taught to the advanced students in sk

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

DavidCC said:


> That's interesting and I can't wait to get home to see what you mean.
> 
> 
> But I have to wonder, do ideas like this make for a better probability of success if attacked?


 

lets say  you use these movements against different attackers then the answer would be no...however if you work your form on a body and try these ideas on one attacker you will see (at least i do) that you begin to move and continue your attack / counter attack from unexpected places.  My understanding of sk is that the best sk is when the attack seems to come out of no where and also we do not practice to re set frontally to our attacker but rather continue fighting from where we are  in front at the side behind...etc.

try it out and let me know

marlon


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## marlon

14 Kempo said:


> Same here, we slip. The idea we use is that #7 is used when there is not enough time to deploy #6. If there is time to step, there is time to kick ... at least that is how we look at it. Of course a retreating step could be seen the same. Stepping back to buy time with which to deploy the kick. But for us, it's a weight shift and head movement, much like a boxer.


 
plus a kick thrown to the side in this manner negates the center equilibrium of the attacker thereby having a more dramatic effect without adding more strength than striking directly ino thier line of force.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> Beg. of 2 kata -- defense against the beginning of 1 kata. you can keep doing the 2 back and forth against a partner continously.
> Jesse


 

Jesse i too love this exercise.  With a little re working and agle adjustment most of the moves btwn 1 and 2 kata counter each other.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> But for us, it's a weight shift and head movement, much like a boxer.


 

you don't move the feet? do you side-kick to the ribs?


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## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> you don't move the feet? do you side-kick to the ribs?


 
It more of a shift, not a step. It is taught with a side kick to the floating ribs, but in reality it is a side kick to the knee.


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## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> If there is time to step, there is time to kick ...


 

we teach the reason to use 7 instead of 6 is the degree of forward momentum.  If the attacker is closing very hard/fast we use 7 to get off the 'train tracks' and counter attack from an angle.  By moving to 730 we buy time and get a favorable angle off his line of attack.  I don;t see how you can do that with only shifting weight and bobbing your head.


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## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> we teach the reason to use 7 instead of 6 is the degree of forward momentum. If the attacker is closing very hard/fast we use 7 to get off the 'train tracks' and counter attack from an angle. By moving to 730 we buy time and get a favorable angle off his line of attack. I don;t see how you can do that with only shifting weight and bobbing your head.


 
Maybe you can't ... it works for me ... I'm able to avoid the attack. Afterall is said and done, I need to avoid the attack and counter. If I need to step back to 7:30, I do it. If I need to step to 9:00, I do that. Our style does not state that a technique MUST be done this way!!! 

Our philosophy is to teach it the way we were taught and encourage the practitioner, with the help of the instructor, to experiment with what works and what doesn't dependent upon the attack, its speed, power and angle of attack, whether it is a punch (right, left or combination), a kick, a push, whatever.  Find what works and what doesn't. We realize that there isn't going to be someone there, at an altercation, to yell numbers at us, we will need to simply do what comes to us, without thinking. I react to the situation, if I step to 7:30 and deliever a strike to the knee and that stops my adversary, you won't see me complaining that I stepped rather than pivoted. You will see me removing myself from further incident. 

Either way, it's all #7. The concept, as I see it, it to avoid an attack and counter with a linear kick.


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## kidswarrior

DavidCC said:


> we teach the reason to use 7 instead of 6 is the degree of forward momentum. If the attacker is closing very hard/fast we use 7 to get off the 'train tracks' and counter attack from an angle. By moving to 730 we buy time and get a favorable angle off his line of attack. I don;t see how you can do that with only shifting weight and bobbing your head.


Me, too. Also, as a way to get out of the line of a hand coming forward from behind the attacker, presumably with a weapon of some kind (brass or hard plastic knuckles, makeshift blade, etc.).


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## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> Maybe you can't ... it works for me ... I'm able to avoid the attack. Afterall is said and done, I need to avoid the attack and counter. If I need to step back to 7:30, I do it. If I need to step to 9:00, I do that. Our style does not state that a technique MUST be done this way!!!
> 
> Our philosophy is to teach it the way we were taught and encourage the practitioner, with the help of the instructor, to experiment with what works and what doesn't dependent upon the attack, its speed, power and angle of attack, whether it is a punch (right, left or combination), a kick, a push, whatever. Find what works and what doesn't. We realize that there isn't going to be someone there, at an altercation, to yell numbers at us, we will need to simply do what comes to us, without thinking. I react to the situation, if I step to 7:30 and deliever a strike to the knee and that stops my adversary, you won't see me complaining that I stepped rather than pivoted. You will see me removing myself from further incident.
> 
> Either way, it's all #7. The concept, as I see it, it to avoid an attack and counter with a linear kick.


 
I guess it's just a different approach between our schools.  We teach the combos with specific footwork - but of course formulation happens in application.  

We teach the principle of #7 to be "*move* off line of the attack and counter attack from an angle with a linear kick".  So with that principle we move our feet, and we teach them the specifc footwork dictated by our version of the technique.  Once they get that, then we start looking at how to read the timing to know to move to different angles or distance.


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## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> I guess it's just a different approach between our schools. We teach the combos with specific footwork - but of course formulation happens in application.
> 
> We teach the principle of #7 to be "*move* off line of the attack and counter attack from an angle with a linear kick". So with that principle we move our feet, and we teach them the specifc footwork dictated by our version of the technique. Once they get that, then we start looking at how to read the timing to know to move to different angles or distance.


 
It's pretty much the same thing. You are concentrated on moving off the line as a whole, we look at the line as the punch coming at our face, not a train wreck coming along. It's the same principle, different application. I don't feel either is wrong in anyway, shape or form, just a different approach to the same outcome.


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## JTKenpo

marlon said:


> 2 kata also uses more counter strikes with the arm that blocks. Although we teach the natural strikes at yellow the forms up until 2 kata usually strikes with the opposite hand than the one that blocks. This is a major kempo principle. It is also the first form where we do more than one kick without stepping down. Becuase of the various angles and reversals i find that there are many throws after strikes in 2 kata and this too is a predominate characteristic of sk (and very different from AK)...but perhaps i am reverse engineering too much here to say this is a principle inherent in the form. We also block and punch simultaneously in this form which is new for the student here and marry a circular movenment with a linear one which is also new but becomes more predominate at the advanced belts. 2 kata is a pre introduction to many of the concepts taught to the advanced students in sk
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
I see one of  the predominant principles in 3 kata being how to defend yourself from awkward positions ie transitions.  In this form we use the transitions as our first point of attack/defense rather then setting a fighting stance.  I believe this is a precursor to forms such as swift tigers where we are dealing with multiple opponents and not able to finish a defense before having to defend against another position then returning to the previous attacker.  Open hand strikes are also more prevelant in this form and I believe this shows the Kempo founders pointing out how important finger training to be and the idea of toughening the hands.  Thoughts?


----------



## RevIV

JTKenpo said:


> I see one of the predominant principles in 3 kata being how to defend yourself from awkward positions ie transitions. In this form we use the transitions as our first point of attack/defense rather then setting a fighting stance. I believe this is a precursor to forms such as swift tigers where we are dealing with multiple opponents and not able to finish a defense before having to defend against another position then returning to the previous attacker. Open hand strikes are also more prevelant in this form and I believe this shows the Kempo founders pointing out how important finger training to be and the idea of toughening the hands. Thoughts?


 
Granted I have never seen SGM Pesare or his students do the original 7th Pinan, but Swift Tigers is said to be a 3 generation down variation of it.  SGM Pesare also used to do a lot of hand conditioning in his training so you may be onto something there.  But what kind of hand conditioning? Striking? grasping? clawing? poking?
Jesse


----------



## Josh Oakley

RevIV said:


> Beg. of 2 kata -- defense against the beginning of 1 kata. you can keep doing the 2 back and forth against a partner continously.
> Jesse


 
Might be fun. Would you be using that chicken wrist to block the punch, then? Or to deflect the punch slightly with the motion of the chicken wrist, while the actual wrist hits the chin?


----------



## RevIV

Josh Oakley said:


> Might be fun. Would you be using that chicken wrist to block the punch, then? Or to deflect the punch slightly with the motion of the chicken wrist, while the actual wrist hits the chin?


 
I personally use it to block the punch.  I, as an individual and a teacher do not teach chicken wrist strikes to the head.  I know there are techniques out there that have it but i do not. The original 2 kata as taught by SGM Pesare has the chicken wrists going straight up, kindof like Daniel-san in Karate kid, "Paint the Fence, Block" I have some students who do chicken wrist push ups and even condition the radial process,  I do not.  You fight as you train as SGM Pesare said many times this past weekend.  However, in 5 pinan i block the punch and strike the face at the same time on the rising front punch. For the drill purpose it is a little easier just to do it as a block
Jesse


----------



## JTKenpo

RevIV said:


> what kind of hand conditioning? Striking? grasping? clawing? poking?
> Jesse


 

Yes all of the above..I wish I could say I do this but it wouldn't be true.  Diving your hands into sand grasping and pulling it out.  From there moving to more corse materials such as stone dust, then pebbles so on and so forth.  The hard core hand training.  Even Makawara training is good to toughen the hands.  I see the open hand strikes and pokes as reminders that it is part of the training.


----------



## marlon

JTKenpo said:


> I see one of the predominant principles in 3 kata being how to defend yourself from awkward positions ie transitions. In this form we use the transitions as our first point of attack/defense rather then setting a fighting stance. I believe this is a precursor to forms such as swift tigers where we are dealing with multiple opponents and not able to finish a defense before having to defend against another position then returning to the previous attacker. Open hand strikes are also more prevelant in this form and I believe this shows the Kempo founders pointing out how important finger training to be and the idea of toughening the hands. Thoughts?


 

i am more of the soft side to kempo rather than the hard so hand conditioning i do not do much of, although body conditioning i love.  As for 3 kata it is the first kata that emphasizes locks and controls...the addition of the jumping kick is fun for everyone and good for cardio.  I like the little 'escape' with the follow up kick.  it is a good tactic

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

marlon said:


> i am more of the soft side to kempo rather than the hard so hand conditioning i do not do much of, although body conditioning i love. As for 3 kata it is the first kata that emphasizes locks and controls...the addition of the jumping kick is fun for everyone and good for cardio. I like the little 'escape' with the follow up kick. it is a good tactic
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Marlon, besides the opening sequence where do you find the locks and controls?  Do you see these applications in the middle sequence with the low blocks then tiger claws and immortal man strikes?


----------



## DavidCC

anywhere your hands cross in a form, look for joint lock applications.


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> anywhere your hands cross in a form, look for joint lock applications.


 
Thats why I asked, there aren't that many hand crosses in three kata.


----------



## Matt

JTKenpo said:


> Marlon, besides the opening sequence where do you find the locks and controls?  Do you see these applications in the middle sequence with the low blocks then tiger claws and immortal man strikes?



3 Kata is littered with them, especially in the section you reference.


----------



## marlon

DavidCC said:


> anywhere your hands cross in a form, look for joint lock applications.


 

yeah..what David said.

marlon


----------



## marlon

JTKenpo said:


> Marlon, besides the opening sequence where do you find the locks and controls? Do you see these applications in the middle sequence with the low blocks then tiger claws and immortal man strikes?


 
Yes there and there are many areas to apply joint locks in all the forms.  As David and Matt pointed out when the arms cross these are usually good indications of joint locks.  In terms of principles as opposed to application i see theis form as emphasizing joint locks because of the sequences that are done slow.  These points in forms have trtaditionally indicated body / joint manipulation.

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

marlon said:


> Yes there and there are many areas to apply joint locks in all the forms. As David and Matt pointed out when the arms cross these are usually good indications of joint locks. In terms of principles as opposed to application i see theis form as emphasizing joint locks because of the sequences that are done slow. These points in forms have trtaditionally indicated body / joint manipulation.
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
My apologies for asking a vague question, and yes I deserve 50 lashings.  I understand where arms cross there is joint manipulation and this form is rittle with them, but so are all the forms (I believe that was mentioned too).  My question should have been why do you feel these principles are key in this particular form.  Marlon answered my question with the statement about doing the sequence slow.  Thanks Marlon you got to what I should have asked in the first place.


----------



## DavidCC

Do you guys do the sequence with crossed "immortal man" fingers, to an upward open hand block with outward knifehand block, then 3 kicks?  

What do you know about that first part, the crossed fingers then the blocks?  Any details on application or meaning?

thanks!
-David


----------



## marlon

DavidCC said:


> Do you guys do the sequence with crossed "immortal man" fingers, to an upward open hand block with outward knifehand block, then 3 kicks?
> 
> What do you know about that first part, the crossed fingers then the blocks? Any details on application or meaning?
> 
> thanks!
> -David


 


ok the immortal man strikes...other than the obvious i 've got nothing!!

marlon


----------



## RevIV

marlon said:


> ok the immortal man strikes...other than the obvious i 've got nothing!!
> 
> marlon


 
This form was first taught on the East Coast by SGM Pesare. Now some people have shown me different applications But SGM Pesare was very clear on what they were taught to him as, by Sijo Gascon in the 50's.  They were the basic 3 gaurds of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu.  If you watch any of the old 8mm's of either Parker's or other peoples Kempo lineage you will see these 3 gaurds after the cross and covers.  After the 3 gaurd positions you attack those 3 people with the kicks.  Not what you were searching for but thats straight from the source.
Jesse


----------



## JTKenpo

RevIV said:


> This form was first taught on the East Coast by SGM Pesare. Now some people have shown me different applications But SGM Pesare was very clear on what they were taught to him as, by Sijo Gascon in the 50's. They were the basic 3 gaurds of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. If you watch any of the old 8mm's of either Parker's or other peoples Kempo lineage you will see these 3 gaurds after the cross and covers. After the 3 gaurd positions you attack those 3 people with the kicks. Not what you were searching for but thats straight from the source.
> Jesse


 
Jesse when you say 3 guard positions do you mean the 3 positions on the clock or do you mean the low block, tigers claw, and immortal mans?


----------



## DavidCC

RevIV said:


> This form was first taught on the East Coast by SGM Pesare. Now some people have shown me different applications But SGM Pesare was very clear on what they were taught to him as, by Sijo Gascon in the 50's. They were the basic 3 gaurds of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. If you watch any of the old 8mm's of either Parker's or other peoples Kempo lineage you will see these 3 gaurds after the cross and covers. After the 3 gaurd positions you attack those 3 people with the kicks. Not what you were searching for but thats straight from the source.
> Jesse


 
that's good info, thanks! but I wonder if it got changed between then and now because what we are doing doesn't seem much like a guard LOL


----------



## 14 Kempo

RevIV said:


> This form was first taught on the East Coast by SGM Pesare. Now some people have shown me different applications But SGM Pesare was very clear on what they were taught to him as, by Sijo Gascon in the 50's. They were the basic 3 gaurds of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. If you watch any of the old 8mm's of either Parker's or other peoples Kempo lineage you will see these 3 gaurds after the cross and covers. After the 3 gaurd positions you attack those 3 people with the kicks. Not what you were searching for but thats straight from the source.
> Jesse


 
Damn, very rarely am I right, but that's exactly how I saw it and how I teach it ... LOL ... that might be a first!


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> This form was first taught on the East Coast by SGM Pesare. Now some people have shown me different applications But SGM Pesare was very clear on what they were taught to him as, by Sijo Gascon in the 50's. They were the basic 3 gaurds of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. If you watch any of the old 8mm's of either Parker's or other peoples Kempo lineage you will see these 3 gaurds after the cross and covers. After the 3 gaurd positions you attack those 3 people with the kicks. Not what you were searching for but thats straight from the source.
> Jesse


 

only looking for the truth Jesse.  Thanks for the info!!

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

ok so why would someone do a guard with  the hands in an immortal man posistion?

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

marlon said:


> ok so why would someone do a guard with the hands in an immortal man posistion?
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 

All I can picture is Elvis "don't you ever touch me again"  with his Elvis drawl...sorry it just struck me funny.


----------



## marlon

JTKenpo said:


> All I can picture is Elvis "don't you ever touch me again" with his Elvis drawl...sorry it just struck me funny.


----------



## RevIV

JTKenpo said:


> Jesse when you say 3 guard positions do you mean the 3 positions on the clock or do you mean the low block, tigers claw, and immortal mans?


 
Im talking about Low block, tigers and immortal mans.  What do you mean by the 3 positions on the clock?


----------



## RevIV

marlon said:


> ok so why would someone do a guard with the hands in an immortal man posistion?
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
If i had my meridian book out I would give some points that you are touching.  I know a Shaolin broad sword form (I think it is the basic one they teach to the little kids in China, took awhile to learn,, hehehe)  While i was being taught that form the opposite hand not holding the sword was constantly in the immortal man position.  They said it was a Energy flow position.  Not sure if thats the same reason but it is something.  I do know on SGM Pesare's tape that he sells at the end of the techniques you see him and his original students all do the cross and cover with the immortals.


----------



## Matt

RevIV said:


> Im talking about Low block, tigers and immortal mans.  What do you mean by the 3 positions on the clock?



I think he just means that the 3 guards are oriented toward 3, 12, and 9 o'clock respectively.


----------



## Matt

RevIV said:


> If i had my meridian book out I would give some points that you are touching.  I know a Shaolin broad sword form (I think it is the basic one they teach to the little kids in China, took awhile to learn,, hehehe)  While i was being taught that form the opposite hand not holding the sword was constantly in the immortal man position.  They said it was a Energy flow position.  Not sure if thats the same reason but it is something.  I do know on SGM Pesare's tape that he sells at the end of the techniques you see him and his original students all do the cross and cover with the immortals.



I think for the immortal man one, you tend to be touching LU-5 on a trapped arm with your right and TW-17 with the other hand. But hey, it's not my bag so set me straight if I'm off. I just call it 'the noogie of doom.'

Matt


----------



## RevIV

Matt said:


> I think for the immortal man one, you tend to be touching LU-5 on a trapped arm with your right and TW-17 with the other hand. But hey, it's not my bag so set me straight if I'm off. I just call it 'the noogie of doom.'
> 
> Matt


 
Actually i was refering to where the thumb and ring finger touch.  Hope you had a great weekend Matt, see you on Sunday.


----------



## JTKenpo

Matt said:


> I think he just means that the 3 guards are oriented toward 3, 12, and 9 o'clock respectively.


 
Yup, thats what I meant.


----------



## DavidCC

RevIV said:


> If i had my meridian book out I would give some points that you are touching. I know a Shaolin broad sword form (I think it is the basic one they teach to the little kids in China, took awhile to learn,, hehehe) While i was being taught that form the opposite hand not holding the sword was constantly in the immortal man position. They said it was a Energy flow position. Not sure if thats the same reason but it is something. I do know on SGM Pesare's tape that he sells at the end of the techniques you see him and his original students all do the cross and cover with the immortals.


 
Without all of the supporting information, technique and training the "Energy flow position" is nothing more than imitation of the outward hand gesture at best.  And without knowing why Mr. Pesare and the old guys were doing it in those tapes, I'd have to summarize what you have written here as "we are doing it purely out of tradition".  Whihc isn't a negative, as long as we KNOW that's what's up.





Matt said:


> I think for the immortal man one, you tend to be touching LU-5 on a trapped arm with your right and TW-17 with the other hand. But hey, it's not my bag so set me straight if I'm off. I just call it 'the noogie of doom.'
> 
> Matt


 
Why touching?  My teacher is also an Instructor in Kyusho Jitsu, so we are very familair with use of these points, so I am curious what you guys undersand about how this form supports that kindof interpretation.  Poking with immortals?  Something more abstract or something altogether different?  I look forward to your thoughts.  Also I wonder if we are doign the same movements / postures?  got pics?


----------



## Matt

DavidCC said:


> Without all of the supporting information, technique and training the "Energy flow position" is nothing more than imitation of the outward hand gesture at best.  And without knowing why Mr. Pesare and the old guys were doing it in those tapes, I'd have to summarize what you have written here as "we are doing it purely out of tradition".  Whihc isn't a negative, as long as we KNOW that's what's up.



 I think you have hit a nail on the head (not the nail, there's still a lot of nails left) with that statement. I think we are doing it all purely out of tradition. There is one little piece left in the chain of 'there to here' in that I think GM Pesare was doing it that particular way because that's what he saw done. I haven't heard a reason why from him at this point. Maybe he just likes it. The applications for those moves that I do are purely reverse engineered out of techniques from Professor Kimo and ones he's shown based on Walter Godin's teachings. I can't claim any real pedigree for the moves. I just found that moves I was learning fit the forms I had really well, and that they came from a source further up the tree (than even GM Pesare).  




> Why touching?  My teacher is also an Instructor in Kyusho Jitsu, so we are very familair with use of these points, so I am curious what you guys undersand about how this form supports that kindof interpretation.  Poking with immortals?  Something more abstract or something altogether different?  I look forward to your thoughts.  Also I wonder if we are doign the same movements / postures?  got pics?



By touching, I'm only speaking in location terms, not functionality. From a Kyusho stand point, the immortal man ones seem to fall in the 'pressing' category (not rubbing or striking). I tend to use biomechanical explanations, as I don't particularly subscribe to the Dillman / Pantazi type of Kyusho applications.


----------



## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> Without all of the supporting information, technique and training the "Energy flow position" is nothing more than imitation of the outward hand gesture at best. And without knowing why Mr. Pesare and the old guys were doing it in those tapes, I'd have to summarize what you have written here as "we are doing it purely out of tradition". Whihc isn't a negative, as long as we KNOW that's what's up.
> 
> 
> Yes,,,No,, Since for sake of arguement (matt can go further here) 3 kata was created by Sijo Gason - so if he created it, thats where the tradition starts.


----------



## DavidCC

Matt said:


> I think you have hit a nail on the head (not the nail, there's still a lot of nails left) with that statement. I think we are doing it all purely out of tradition. There is one little piece left in the chain of 'there to here' in that I think GM Pesare was doing it that particular way because that's what he saw done. I haven't heard a reason why from him at this point. Maybe he just likes it. The applications for those moves that I do are purely reverse engineered out of techniques from Professor Kimo and ones he's shown based on Walter Godin's teachings. I can't claim any real pedigree for the moves. I just found that moves I was learning fit the forms I had really well, and that they came from a source further up the tree (than even GM Pesare).


 
If Kimo is showing you stuff that could be applications of these movements, and they came from Godin, that is very "pedigreed" IMHO.  So let's see some videos!!




Matt said:


> By touching, I'm only speaking in location terms, not functionality. From a Kyusho stand point, the immortal man ones seem to fall in the 'pressing' category (not rubbing or striking). I tend to use biomechanical explanations, as I don't particularly subscribe to the Dillman / Pantazi type of Kyusho applications.


 
I'm not sure how long ago you were exposed to what Pantazi and K.I. are doing but in the last 2 years they made some pretty fundamental changes to how they are teaching Kyusho.  They removed a lot of theory and "tradidtional theory" if you know what I mean, and are focusing on repeatable, measurable results.  No more elements etc.  Lots more medical research.




RevIV said:


> DavidCC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Without all of the supporting information, technique and training the "Energy flow position" is nothing more than imitation of the outward hand gesture at best. And without knowing why Mr. Pesare and the old guys were doing it in those tapes, I'd have to summarize what you have written here as "we are doing it purely out of tradition". Whihc isn't a negative, as long as we KNOW that's what's up.
> 
> 
> Yes,,,No,, Since for sake of arguement (matt can go further here) 3 kata was created by Sijo Gason - so if he created it, thats where the tradition starts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If SG can explain what those movemets mean, as the creator of the form, and we can learn and apply that, and pass it on, then we will not be "doing them out of tradition".
> 
> If he put them in there because of something he saw but did not practice or understand, and we are doing them for the same reason... then it is just empty tradition.
> 
> If he understood the applicaiton and practice and we don't... then it is just empty tradition and somebody needs to go learn it form him before it is too late.
Click to expand...


----------



## Matt

DavidCC said:


> If Kimo is showing you stuff that could be applications of these movements, and they came from Godin, that is very "pedigreed" IMHO.  So let's see some videos!!


 
Eventually? One of these days...



DavidCC said:


> I'm not sure how long ago you were exposed to what Pantazi and K.I. are doing but in the last 2 years they made some pretty fundamental changes to how they are teaching Kyusho.  They removed a lot of theory and "tradidtional theory" if you know what I mean, and are focusing on repeatable, measurable results.  No more elements etc.  Lots more medical research.


 
That's good to hear, I think. Last time I saw him was probably around the time he made the 'Chinto' tape. I always have a chuckle when I see it,as my friend Chris inadvertently was featured in the cover photo. This was before 2003, based on the patch on Chris's uniform. I enjoyed working with Evan. He was very nice and I thought that he'd taken an interesting approach with his school, but once he started 'demonstrating' the 'no touch knockouts', I lost interest. None of the knockouts (touch, no-touch, whatever) ever worked on me, even when performed by Evan under ideal circumstances, so I didn't place much stock in them. However, his pain compliance and manipulation techniques were very good, and I really liked a lot of his Kata Bunkai. 



DavidCC said:


> If SG can explain what those movemets mean, as the creator of the form, and we can learn and apply that, and pass it on, then we will not be "doing them out of tradition".
> 
> If he put them in there because of something he saw but did not practice or understand, and we are doing them for the same reason... then it is just empty tradition.
> 
> If he understood the applicaiton and practice and we don't... then it is just empty tradition and somebody needs to go learn it form him before it is too late.




Preaching to the choir here. I just seem to live on the wrong coast. So why hasn't he gone over them some time in the last 15 years? I've really been wondering that. Hopefully some of the guys who have actually trained with him on  a regular basis can enlighten me.


----------



## 14 Kempo

Matt said:


> Eventually? One of these days...
> 
> 
> 
> That's good to hear, I think. Last time I saw him was probably around the time he made the 'Chinto' tape. I always have a chuckle when I see it,as my friend Chris inadvertently was featured in the cover photo. This was before 2003, based on the patch on Chris's uniform. I enjoyed working with Evan. He was very nice and I thought that he'd taken an interesting approach with his school, but once he started 'demonstrating' the 'no touch knockouts', I lost interest. None of the knockouts (touch, no-touch, whatever) ever worked on me, even when performed by Evan under ideal circumstances, so I didn't place much stock in them. However, his pain compliance and manipulation techniques were very good, and I really liked a lot of his Kata Bunkai.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Preaching to the choir here. I just seem to live on the wrong coast. So why hasn't he gone over them some time in the last 15 years? I've really been wondering that. Hopefully some of the guys who have actually trained with him on a regular basis can enlighten me.


 
** As a side note of sorts, Victor 'Sonny' Gascon will be at my school in July. Not sure if he'll be in condition to show bunkai, however, if he has Mike Rash or one of his other high ranking persons with him, I may be able to get the bunkai. If not, I will at least ask the question and possibly get the answer verbally.


----------



## DavidCC

If nothing else, ask about the immortal man thing.


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> If nothing else, ask about the immortal man thing.


 
I'll make sure to do that.


----------



## Matt

14 Kempo said:


> ** As a side note of sorts, Victor 'Sonny' Gascon will be at my school in July. Not sure if he'll be in condition to show bunkai, however, if he has Mike Rash or one of his other high ranking persons with him, I may be able to get the bunkai. If not, I will at least ask the question and possibly get the answer verbally.



You have no idea how happy that would make me. 

Thanks, 

Matt


----------



## marlon

Which form is next?

marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

marlon said:


> Which form is next?
> 
> marlon


 
Have we touched on the principles of 4 kata?  I'm getting principles and application threads mixed up.  

To me the predominant feature in four kata is the pivot, in place directional change without giving up position.


----------



## 14 Kempo

JTKenpo said:


> Have we touched on the principles of 4 kata? I'm getting principles and application threads mixed up.
> 
> To me the predominant feature in four kata is the pivot, in place directional change without giving up position.


 
Darn, glad you mentioned that, cause that's all I can find within kata 4. I'm sure there is more, I'm looking forward to everyone's input on this one. I just don't like this form. Maybe after reading up here, I'll  have a different outlook.


----------



## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> Darn, glad you mentioned that, cause that's all I can find within kata 4. I'm sure there is more, I'm looking forward to everyone's input on this one. I just don't like this form. Maybe after reading up here, I'll have a different outlook.


 
I hear that. I didn't skip it on accident, I just don't have much in the way of application on this one. I was noticing everyone else seem to skip it too....hummmmm.......


----------



## SK101

When you hit the thanks button what does that do? Are you thanking the person who wrote that particular reply? Sorry I don't understand how martial talk works yet. I am still just learning the basics.


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> When you hit the thanks button what does that do? Are you thanking the person who wrote that particular reply? Sorry I don't understand how martial talk works yet. I am still just learning the basics.


 
It thanks the person who's post you clicked on. You'll see your screen name show up immediately at the bottom of that particular post.


----------



## RevIV

I am going to say i did not like 4 kata for the longest time... I worked it over and over again with other instructors and stole everything i liked from their thoughts.... so kempo....
the opening move i teach two things..
one is off of a shoulder grab,  right grab, left punch..  
person doing the form brings arm up on the outside of the grab arm, hyper extending the elbow, the tiger claw is more of a eye gauge and then i bring their arm in under my chamber as i step back (foot to foot)and back punch to the chin (chin because their head will drop down when you pull them in with your chamber). then i step out behind the person and back fist with take down.
for the kempo i will get a video of it, to hard to explain and send it to matt and have him post it.
Jesse


----------



## JTKenpo

Five kata principles:  I posted this in a discussion on applications but think it belongs with this discussion as well.  I would have just hyperlinked it, but I am not that savvy.

The kata begins by moving forward (1 kata) then moves back on the same line (2 kata). This is also line reenforcement which is taught in 2 kata and also has the blocks and counter strikes on the same hand which you brought up earlier about 2 kata. These linear steps are then followed by circular steps in the wheel backward for the next two sequences. "where linear moves end circular moves begin and where circular moves end linear moves begin". Within these next two sections we have low block high strikes, this I believe is showing the connection of height zones. As you block or strike one height zone another opens. The third section also contains the open hand "scoop" blocks followed by spear hands, which is found in the opening of 3 kata. Then we move into the backfist side kick which we see originally in 1 kata. Here is the interesting part, the next move is the backfist/trap on each side, before the flying side kick, we see this in 5 pinion which wasn't in the system when 5 kata was created so SGM Pesare could very well have been influenced by shotokan as well (pure speculation on my part, I have nothing else to back that statement up). Then after the flying side kick we have the reverse crane stance seen very often in Statue of the Crane. The last section has the back kick to 6 oclock and the spear hand to 12, fighting two different directions simulaneously which is what I believe the underlying principles of 4 kata are; all the pivots.


----------



## marlon

JTKenpo said:


> Have we touched on the principles of 4 kata? I'm getting principles and application threads mixed up.
> 
> To me the predominant feature in four kata is the pivot, in place directional change without giving up position.


 
That's about all i can find in terms of principles for 4 kata..i have some nice applications and  Jesse has some great applications.  But as for priniciples...

marlon


----------



## marlon

5 kata i like the opening up the middle to strike but i especially like the lean away that can hide your true distance from the attacker.  without a form that uses a backstance such as heien nidan this is where we come across this idea in the skk forms.

marlon


----------



## Josh Oakley

I was working Kata 4 with my sensei and the only thing I could think of when doing it was that someone will be able to turn on a dime when they're proficient with it.


----------



## 14 Kempo

Josh Oakley said:


> I was working Kata 4 with my sensei and the only thing I could think of when doing it was that someone will be able to turn on a dime when they're proficient with it.


 
Just one more thought, it teaches us how to use the ground and our bodies to generate power. Not only are a lot of these movements a pivot, but the pivots can be used to teach the principle of starting at ground level. The feet move first, the hips follow the feet, the shoulders follow the hips and here come the hands.


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## SK101

JTKenpo said:


> I see one of the predominant principles in 3 kata being how to defend yourself from awkward positions ie transitions.
> 
> I like the idea of working out of akward positions, but I don't see in Kata 3 where we are starting from an akward position. Can you give 1 or 2 examples where the starting stance or guard position is weird?


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## SK101

DavidCC said:


> we teach the reason to use 7 instead of 6 is the degree of forward momentum. If the attacker is closing very hard/fast we use 7 to get off the 'train tracks' and counter attack from an angle. By moving to 730 we buy time and get a favorable angle off his line of attack. I don;t see how you can do that with only shifting weight and bobbing your head.


 
I think your concept of degree of forward momentum answers the variations in DM(Combo) #7 that you are discussing. If I am reading this right it sounds like you may be reacting to a tackle/bearhug/or a front punch thrown from close range. It sounded like the bob and weave version of 7 that someone mentioned may be off more of a hook or haymaker type attack with less forward motion or even no forward motion.


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