# Portland cafe shows officer the door



## Archangel M (Jun 4, 2010)

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/red_black_cafe_shows_portland.html



> In mid-May, Portland police Officer James Crooker  went to Southeast Portland on a patrol call. With a few minutes to spare, he decided to get a coffee.
> 
> So, he popped into the Red & Black  cafe on Southeast 12th Avenue near Oak Street, bought a coffee and was heading out when a customer approached him, saying she appreciates the hard job that police officers do every day in Portland.
> 
> One of the co-owners of the cafe, John Langley,  has another point of view. While the officer and customer were chatting, he walked up and asked Crooker to leave, saying he felt uncomfortable having a uniformed officer in the vegan cafe.



The real face of "compassion and equality".

I wonder who they would call if the store was robbed?


----------



## Sukerkin (Jun 4, 2010)

That's a puzzling one to be sure.

There's a joke about Pigs and Vegans in there somewhere but I would not be so lost to good manners to try to build it :lol:.


----------



## Deaf Smith (Jun 4, 2010)

While a FEW LEOs are borderline bullies, most are not. And for a business to show them the door cause they have their uniform on, well ok, don't be shocked of they sort of 'slow code' while driving to the cafe to answer a call.

It's clear the cafe co-owner don't like cops, but that can be a two way street.

At least here in Texas, few, if any, establshment would even think of doing that. 

Deaf


----------



## Ironcrane (Jun 4, 2010)

That cafe is not to far from where I live. In fact, my Kung Fu school use to be next to one of those cafes.
The public here generally seems to have a negative view towards the Police. I don't really agree with this view. But in the last few months there have been a few incidents with the Police that have really made the public angry with them.
So while I do think this sucks, I'm not to surprised to hear that it happened.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 5, 2010)

The interesting part is reading the comments. Everybody is piling on either the Cop or the cafe owner..when In fact it was an outraged customer who broke the story. A reporter and blogger who was talking to the officer when he was asked to leave...AFTER he purchased one of their coffee's of course.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 5, 2010)

Unless the cop was doing something wrong, I see the cafe owner as the one in the wrong here.  While I subscribe to the 'reserve the right to refuse service....' policy, this seems....asinine.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 5, 2010)

http://www.corneliaseigneur.com/where%E2%80%99s-a-portland-police-officer-to-get-a-cup-of-coffee/



> *Where&#8217;s a Portland Police officer to get a cup of coffee?
> 
> *My daughter and I were looking forward to a nice lunch at the red and black, a vegan cafe in southeast Portland, two days before she was to return to Germany. Having a vegetarian daughter makes for great eating adventures. I had heard about this place as it was the opening scene in the book Imaginary Jesus, written by Matt Mikalatos, whom I am writing a story about for the newspaper.
> 
> ...


----------



## tellner (Jun 5, 2010)

I've been to events at The Red&Black a couple times. It's an anarchist-friendly place. Real anarchist. They're an IWW shop with everything that implies. The guy who told the cop to take a hike wasn't "the manager" or "the owner". The place is collectively run and managed.

Did he speak for all the workers there? Nope.
Did he speak for most of them? Who knows?


----------



## tellner (Jun 5, 2010)

Was the guy behind the counter out of line?

I'd say no. Any business has the right to decide with whom it will choose to do business. And a business has the right to institute a dress code. If cops and people wearing blue polyester don't qualify they don't qualify. If you aren't dressed right you don't get into the best clubs. If Management doesn't like you you can be "excluded" from the mall. If a guy running a coffee shop thinks cops will lower the tone of the place and drive away the regular customers he's absolutely within his rights to make that decision. Given the usual clientèle that probably wouldn't be far off the mark. 

Libertarians, Objectivists and the rest of that crowd should be ecstatic. They are always talking about the importance of freedom and contracts. Just last week Rand Paul went on and on about how businesses should not be forced to serve Negroes. Those sorts of statist restrictions only apply to the government, not Private Enterprise. The manager was exercising his freedom to maximize the business' utility through rational self-interest. If some government official gets his tax-fattened snout out of joint at that, well that's just too bad, isn't it? The freedom to refuse service doesn't mean anything unless you can actually refuse service.

Who will they call if there's a crime at the cafe? The police. Again, let's apply Conservative reasoning. Police officers sign a contract when they join the PPB. They have to preserve the peace, enforce the law and investigate crimes even if they don't like the citizens. That's the magic of Contracts at work. 

Do I believe the crap in the last two paragraphs? Not really. The people who have been tossing this sort of stuff around towards others need to be on the receiving end of their own logic once in a while to know how it feels.

None of us was there, but I see a couple possibilities the news story didn't address. A lot of the crowd at R&BC is uncomfortable around the police. The guy in charge at the time may have had very good cause to believe they would be uncomfortable or feel threatened by a police officer hanging around. There have been other incidents in this town where cops want to make a place unattractive. So they show up and drive away the customers.


----------



## RandomPhantom700 (Jun 5, 2010)

tellner said:


> I'd say no. Any business has the right to decide with whom it will choose to do business. And a business has the right to institute a dress code. If cops and people wearing blue polyester don't qualify they don't qualify. If you aren't dressed right you don't get into the best clubs. If Management doesn't like you you can be "excluded" from the mall. If a guy running a coffee shop thinks cops will lower the tone of the place and drive away the regular customers he's absolutely within his rights to make that decision. Given the usual clientèle that probably wouldn't be far off the mark.


 
Um, was this part of the tongue-in-cheek portion of your post?  I couldn't tell.

At any rate, I don't know anything about this particular cafe, but I've been in similar fringe-themed establishments ("pseudo-anarchist", "avant garde" fill in whatever description you like.)  I suppose it's their perogative to refuse service to members of the establishment if they want.  It's still uncalled for, though.  Some cops may be bullies with a badge, but most are not, and it doesn't sound, initially, like the cop did anything to deserve animosity.


----------



## Carol (Jun 5, 2010)

Meh.  It reads like a publicity stunt to me.  Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 5, 2010)

Carol said:


> Meh.  It reads like a publicity stunt to me.  Nothing more, nothing less.



Only if the reporter/blogger who broke the story was in on it. I doubt the worker or the cop would have made such a media issue out of it.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 5, 2010)

In a way this whole story is "typical".

If a cop gave CPR to a drowning child and saved it, odds are that you may see a small blurb in the back of the local paper. If a cop screws up or is refused coffee by some hippy vegan than it makes NATIONAL news.

Typical.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 5, 2010)

While the owner or whomever had every right to do what he did, these types of decisions make the news and the caffe will experience the consequences.
Sean


----------



## tellner (Jun 5, 2010)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> Um, was this part of the tongue-in-cheek portion of your post?  I couldn't tell.



Yes, it was.


----------



## MJS (Jun 6, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/red_black_cafe_shows_portland.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
What an ***!  I'm not going to bother reading the comments because I wont see anything different than I usually do.  What amazes me, is that while certain people show a dislike for LEOs, they seem to forget that its the police that THEY call when:

1) they get assaulted
2) their car stolen
3) their house broken into
4) they get into an accident
5) to report fradulent use of their credit cards
6) are in a domestic violence situation
7) are lost and need directions

These are just a few of the many things.  So lemme get this straight....the cops are the bad guys....but when you need them for help, they're suddenly knights in shining armor?  

Like I said, this guy behind the counter was an ***...plain and simple!


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 6, 2010)

tellner said:


> Libertarians, Objectivists and the rest of that crowd should be ecstatic. They are always talking about the importance of freedom and contracts. Just last week Rand Paul went on and on about how businesses should not be forced to serve Negroes. Those sorts of statist restrictions only apply to the government, not Private Enterprise. The manager was exercising his freedom to maximize the business' utility through rational self-interest. If some government official gets his tax-fattened snout out of joint at that, well that's just too bad, isn't it? The freedom to refuse service doesn't mean anything unless you can actually refuse service..



So... decide... which is it?  Can the Cafe refuse to serve Cops, AND the Jewish deli down the street is free to turn away Muslims, the Sandwich guy in Philly doesn't have to serve Hispanics (anyone remember that thread?) etc... or does everyone have to be served *period*.  OR, is it all one big Hypocrisy based on what the Touchie-feelie crowd thinks is and is not appropriate?  

Cuz, mostly what I hear is: "Serve them Illegals, but let the Pigs starve!"


----------



## tellner (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm just highlighting the hypocrisy of the so-called Libertarian types who think businesses should be free to discriminate against people based on the color of their skin but are angry that it would be applied on the basis of profession.

They can't have it both ways. If the R&BC worker was wrong, so are they. If their principles mean anything they should be supporting his decision as an exercise in freedom and individual rights.

Do you want my personal opinion? The guy behind the espresso machine was being a jerk but was within his _legal_ rights. The laws banning discrimination on the basis of race, sex and religion are good ones.


----------



## Carol (Jun 6, 2010)

tellner said:


> I'm just highlighting the hypocrisy of the so-called Libertarian types who think businesses should be free to discriminate against people based on the color of their skin but are angry that it would be applied on the basis of profession.
> 
> They can't have it both ways. If the R&BC worker was wrong, so are they. If their principles mean anything they should be supporting his decision as an exercise in freedom and individual rights.
> 
> Do you want my personal opinion? The guy behind the espresso machine was being a jerk but was within his _legal_ rights. The laws banning discrimination on the basis of race, sex and religion are good ones.


 
As far as I know, he was within his legal rights...or at least consistent with how they are applied elsewhere. "Choice of occupation" is not a protected class in the U.S. Civil Rights code...neither is being a smoker, for that matter.

Disagree a bit about supporting the worker's decision. I support his freedom, but I don't care for his judgement. I could legally show a 16 year old dude one helluva good time, but think I'd be called.....something other than someone that is exercising their individual freedoms.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo (Jun 6, 2010)

tellner said:


> I'm just highlighting the hypocrisy of the so-called Libertarian types who think businesses should be free to discriminate against people based on the color of their skin but are angry that it would be applied on the basis of profession.


 
Interesting statement here.  I don't see anyone saying that this person didn't have a right to do what he did.  Just that he was stupid for doing so.  So.... where do you get evidence of hypocricy?



> Do you want my personal opinion? The guy behind the espresso machine was being a jerk but was within his _legal_ rights. The laws banning discrimination on the basis of race, sex and religion are good ones.


 
I actually would argue that he wasn't, not necessarily anyway.  The officer had already bought his coffee.  That *entitles* him to the same level of service, including sitting at a table or talking to others within the establishment, of any other person.  He paid for it already.  

Now if, when the officer first attempted to purchase his product, was told "we don't serve your kind here", then he would be within his rights.  But unless that officer is causing an actual disturbance or receives a refund, he can stay.  

But that would be something for the court to decide.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 7, 2010)

The place has a policy where if a customer is uncomfortable with "your kind" then they may request a collective member (worker) to ask you to leave ... and then ... you need to leave.  It doesn't matter if you're wearing a shield, a purple shirt or a Chewbacca costume.

I would invite anyone critical to pose as a homeless person on the streets of Stumptown and find out how wonderfully they are treated by Portland's finest.  But then ... you'd have to care about humanity a little more to want to understand it.

Maybe it doesn't matter.

For a place that doesn't do publicity, I doubt this was a publicity stunt and I daresay their policy likely keeps them out of a heap of trouble ... then again, so do their patrons.

It's a shame that so many people have had bad experiences with police - it's such an important, misunderstood and thankless job.


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jun 7, 2010)

I think this would be illegal in Belgium. a shop owner is not allowed to turn people away for generic reasons because of anti discrimination laws. I.e. you can't say 'no cops' but you could say 'not THAT cop' but even then you'd have to have a valid reason to turn him away. 'Because I don't like his face' is not one of those.

The only exception would be if it is a private club. Private clubs can pretty much do as they please, but then they can't behave like a public place either. For example, pubs can (county regulation) have a mandatory closing hour. If at that time the owner locks his door, then his pub is no longer a public place but a private place, and he can say that it's a private party.


----------



## punisher73 (Jun 7, 2010)

Carol said:


> As far as I know, he was within his legal rights...or at least consistent with how they are applied elsewhere. "Choice of occupation" is not a protected class in the U.S. Civil Rights code...neither is being a smoker, for that matter.
> 
> Disagree a bit about supporting the worker's decision. I support his freedom, but I don't care for his judgement. I could legally show a 16 year old dude one helluva good time, but think I'd be called.....something other than someone that is exercising their individual freedoms.


 
Some states, 16 is legal. Again, shows you how arbitrary "morality" and "legality" can be.


----------



## punisher73 (Jun 7, 2010)

Just playing devil's advocate here.

1) The shop had no problem allowing the officer to come in and spend money.

2) They only had a problem when he stopped to talk

So, it wasn't an issue of a private business refusing service to someone, they gladly took his money.  They were just greedy people who want to have a certain image, so if you go and spend money...ok.  Chat with other paying customers...not ok.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 7, 2010)

punisher73 said:


> Just playing devil's advocate here.
> 
> 1) The shop had no problem allowing the officer to come in and spend money.
> 
> ...



Uh...no.  The shop welcomes everybody.  But if someone says something, then you need to go.  It happens before sales, during sales, after sales.

It's just SOOO easy to put far more into it than there really was, I'm sure.


----------



## David43515 (Jun 7, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> Uh...no. The shop welcomes everybody. But if someone says something, then you need to go. It happens before sales, during sales, after sales.
> 
> It's just SOOO easy to put far more into it than there really was, I'm sure.


 
So did I understand you to say that the shop is collectively owned and that any member of the collective (or was it any customer) wants you out all they have to do is say so? How is that any different than the lunch counters in the south during the civil rights movement? From where I sit it still smacks of discrimination. The only difference is that jobs aren`t a protected status. So if a customer sees a priest and wants them to leave is that discrimination against a Catholic (which would be protected because of religious status) or is it descrimination against his job choice (which is not protected under the law)? 

To me the most foolish part of the whole discussion was when the shop owner said that if he were being robbed he would call on his neighbors for help instead of the police. I`m sure they`ll get right on that.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 7, 2010)

*Cartman:* Hippies.They're everywhere. They wanna save the earth, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 7, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> *Cartman:* Hippies.They're everywhere. They wanna save the earth, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad.



Changing the world by discrimination. One coffee drinking cop at a time.


----------



## Carol (Jun 7, 2010)

David43515 said:


> So did I understand you to say that the shop is collectively owned and that any member of the collective (or was it any customer) wants you out all they have to do is say so? How is that any different than the lunch counters in the south during the civil rights movement? From where I sit it still smacks of discrimination.



It absolutely does.  Because that policy means that if "Juan" has an issue with black people and doesn't want to drink his coffee with a black girl in the  shop, all "Juan" would have to do is ask a member of the "collective" to make the black girl go away, and the black girl will be given the heave-ho.

That's illegal.

And yeah, if its middle class white men, that's just as illegal.


----------



## David43515 (Jun 8, 2010)

Carol said:


> It absolutely does. Because that policy means that if "Juan" has an issue with black people and doesn't want to drink his coffee with a black girl in the shop, all "Juan" would have to do is ask a member of the "collective" to make the black girl go away, and the black girl will be given the heave-ho.
> 
> That's illegal.
> 
> And yeah, if its middle class white men, that's just as illegal.


 
That`s kinda what I thought. Thanks for clearing that up. I thought it was just me.


----------



## MJS (Jun 8, 2010)

I still think the clerk was in the wrong.  I'd be willing to bet anything that if this were a black man, we'd have the ACLU, Jesse and Al, banging heads to 'get justice' for the wrong doings of the store clerk. *rolls eyes*


----------



## Empty Hands (Jun 8, 2010)

MJS said:


> I still think the clerk was in the wrong.  I'd be willing to bet anything that if this were a black man, we'd have the ACLU, Jesse and Al, banging heads to 'get justice' for the wrong doings of the store clerk. *rolls eyes*



Doing the same thing to a black man is illegal, remember?  Doing so to a police officer (or a doctor or an NFL linebacker) is not.

_Ressentiment _strikes again!


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 8, 2010)

I see.

So y'all think that "We reserve the right to refuse service to ANYONE" should be illegal?  

Here is a link to their safer-space policy.

I suppose discriminating against everybody is still discrimination?  I'm not sure I agree, though it's obviously easy to favor the police (they have a tough job I wouldn't want) over "pot-smoking hippies."

Hm.  Where's that discrimination line again?

And for the record - if the policeman saw someone in the shop he knew was a violent mentally ill homeless wreck and wasn't comfortable with that person's company - he could have asked for that person to be asked to leave ... and the homeless, mentally ill, violent individual would be escorted out.  

Even better? He wouldn't even have had to use his status (nor his utilities) to do so.

Peace out.


----------



## chaos1551 (Jun 8, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> Here is a link to their safer-space policy.



The conforming non-conformists strike again.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 8, 2010)

David43515 said:


> To me the most foolish part of the whole discussion was when the shop owner said that if he were being robbed he would call on his neighbors for help instead of the police. I`m sure they`ll get right on that.



While I don't disagree with you - I'd still rather call the police - The Portland/Vancouver metro area has been hit with budget cuts to law enforcement, fire, search and rescue, etcetera.  There are areas who get quick response times and other areas that do not.  I'm sure this particular incident won't help this shop nor the neighborhood much.

Please know - I hate to say this - I hate that this is a reality ... but it IS a reality here.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 8, 2010)

While people (including cops) may like to bandy about the "well lets see how fast we respond to calls at that shop" line...any cop who really would do that shouldn't carry a badge.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 8, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> I see.
> 
> So y'all think that "We reserve the right to refuse service to ANYONE" should be illegal?
> 
> ...


Discrimination is discrimination. 

There's a difference in my mind between asking someone who is disruptive and causing a scene to leave, and someone who quietly walked in, made a purchase and was having a polite conversation to leave.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 8, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Discrimination is discrimination.
> 
> There's a difference in my mind between asking someone who is disruptive and causing a scene to leave, and someone who quietly walked in, made a purchase and was having a polite conversation to leave.


ok, I read their policy.



> Causing a worker or patron discomfort or distress for any reason  (including violating our Safer Space Policy)



So....if the employee is uncomfortable because you are a martial arts instructor, they can throw you out.

If they are intimidated by a fat person, or a chick with huge boobs, or a guy with bulging biceps, or the winner of the BillG Lookalike contest, you can be asked to leave.


So, lets see if I have the full image.

A cop in full uniform swaggers in, top 4 buttons popped so his chest fuzz is sticking out like a nerd in summer school. He's got his firearm in holster, causing more than 1 vegan hippie to soil themselves in terror because "guns r badd". While Officer Swagger orders his drink, one that causes more than a few shocked gasps, probably from the evil insistance on whole milk rather than soy, one brave soul gets up the nerve to approach the tovarich on duty.

"it's a ....a ...a.... cop! I'm frightened! I'm carrying. Help me!!!"

Immediately, Tovarich Goodbody leaps into action, and all 98lbs of him approached the horrible Officer Swagger, now deep in what must be a prolatarian plot to raid the vegan beansprout raw off later that week.  Knees knocking, and pants moistening from the panic he was barely keeping in check he gave his order.

"Pppppplease, llllleave. Yyyyour scscscareing mmmmmme." he whimpered.

"Excuse me?" Replied Officer Swagger, straining to hear the mumbled comment over the out of tune New Age music playing in the background.

"Ppplease leave nnnnow. We d.d.don't like cccops here."

"Ok." came the reply, causing Tovarich to soil himself, as he stood waiting for the cop to pull out his night stick and violate his body.  Eyes closed, he waited, but all he heard was the door close.

A few minutes later, one of the tofueaters peeked out from under the table where they had dove in a panic and gave the all clear.

Another crisis averted, Tovarich headed to the back to change his all natural cotton undies to something dryer...and somewhat less soiled.


Am I right?


----------



## chaos1551 (Jun 8, 2010)

I am intimidated by a chick with huge boobs, but I certainly wouldn't ask them to leave.


----------



## Carol (Jun 8, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> I see.
> 
> So y'all think that "We reserve the right to refuse service to ANYONE" should be illegal?



There are many restauranteurs and the like that have signs of that precise verbage.  If they run afoul of the law, it is not because of their sign.  It is because of their actions.  Perhaps there is caselaw prohibiting the use of such a sign, I don't know...but I couldn't find such an example with a quick google.

If they put up a sign saying "Whites Only", the methinks that would be a flagrant violation of the law.   



> I suppose discriminating against everybody is still discrimination?


Discrimination on *protected classes* in places of public  accomodation is illegal.   One can't have a place of public  accommodation that excludes women with the excuse of "that's OK, there  are some men we don't like  either."  



> I'm not sure I agree, though it's obviously easy to favor the police (they have a tough job I wouldn't want) over "pot-smoking hippies."


I don't think you're the first person that feels that the U.S. Civil Rights Law shouldn't apply when it interferes with what a person wants.


----------



## David43515 (Jun 8, 2010)

Having read thier policy (Thanks for the link BTW) I`m pretty sure it`s illegal for a business open to the public. Keeping an individual out because thier action cause a disturbance is legal. Keeping out all members of a class of people because someone else doesn`t like them is imoral and in many cases illegal. But countering it probably isn`t worth the trouble.You pick your battles.

Reminds me of news stories I`ve seen here in Japan where pools and saunas refuse entry to people with tattooes (or to foreigners). Or one of the cities down south that banned facial hair for all city employees because some citizens complained that going to city hall and being waited on by men with beards "made them feel uncomfortable". 

I`m all for being comfortable. But if someone`s appearance (NOT thier actions mind you) makes you uncomfortable it sounds like the problem is yours, not thiers.


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 8, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> While people (including cops) may like to bandy about the "well lets see how fast we respond to calls at that shop" line...any cop who really would do that shouldn't carry a badge.


Which is something few people understand...


----------



## Carol (Jun 9, 2010)

I actually thought the police officer's response in the article was very professional.  It said in the article (or one of the articles) that he left immediately when he was asked, and that there were other places (methadone clinics) that he left when asked because he was simply not welcome, even though he was trying to protect the patients there.

Article said he worked that particular area.  Doesn't sound like a guy that wants to **** where he eats, if you'll pardon the phrase.


----------



## MJS (Jun 9, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Doing the same thing to a black man is illegal, remember? Doing so to a police officer (or a doctor or an NFL linebacker) is not.
> 
> _Ressentiment _strikes again!


 
My point was simply to show that in one case all hell would break loose and in another it seems that its ok.  Of course, it would be possible for the cop to file his own civil suit for discrimination.  I have to wonder what this clerk would think if the shoe was on the other foot and it was him that was told to leave, denied access to somewhere, refused service because of the way he looked, etc.  I highly doubt he'd simply walk away, as he seems like one of those *******s that thinks its ok to do something when he's the one dishing it out.  However, should he be on the receiving end, I'd bet it'd be a different story.  

BTW, unless I've missed it, I still havent seen a clear cut reason as to why the cop was asked to leave.  Because he was in uniform?  LOL..thats laughable at best. 

As I said earlier, for all those that hate LEOs, funny how its the LEO that gets called when something bad happens.  Karma really is a ***** I guess.   This reminds me of when I used to work in Corrections.  Those same **** bags, seem to forget, when they'd drive me nuts, that it was me that controlled their phone time, it was me that gave them toilet paper to wipe their ***, soap to wash their smelly ***, let them out to eat, etc, etc.  There're always subtle ways to **** with people, and I wouldnt be surprised if some sort of payback was given.


----------



## MJS (Jun 9, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> While people (including cops) may like to bandy about the "well lets see how fast we respond to calls at that shop" line...any cop who really would do that shouldn't carry a badge.


 
Oh I agree, and I eluded to this very thing in my recent post.  But, I think its safe to say that right or wrong, it does happen.


----------



## Empty Hands (Jun 9, 2010)

MJS said:


> My point was simply to show that in one case all hell would break loose and in another it seems that its ok.  Of course, it would be possible for the cop to file his own civil suit for discrimination.



Because in the one case it is perfectly legal and common, and in another case it is illegal.  He might file that suit, but he would lose.  It is perfectly legal to discriminate all you want - except for certain protected categories.  Those categories are (in Federal law) race, color, religion, national origin, age, sex, familial status, disability, veteran status and genetic information.  You will notice "job" is not on the list.  No shirt, no shoes, no service?  Not illegal.  No construction workers?  Not illegal.  No cops?  Not illegal.

Even "no men" or "no women" or "no blacks" might not be illegal if, for instance, the nature of a job required it.  So turning a man away from working at a female strip club is also not illegal.


----------



## Carol (Jun 9, 2010)

Absolutely correct.  In fact, there was a famous case that was very similar involving Hooters.  Hooters tried to keep their restaurants all female....or at least, everyone but the bouncer.

Some men sued.  Court decided that it was OK for Hooters to keep the "Hooters Girls" and their image (without requiring any "Hooters Guys") but the chain must not restrict less visible roles (cook, dishwasher, manager, etc.) to women only.

Other areas...it is perfectly legal to require a priest be Catholic and a Rabbi be Jewish.  However, it is not legal to require the part-time aid to the synagogue or rectory be Jewish or Catholic.  It is OK to require that the person be enthusiastic and somewhat knowledgeable about the faith, but it is absolutely not a requirement that an aide be a particular faith in order to type up letters and send out mail


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 9, 2010)

David43515 said:


> To me the most foolish part of the whole discussion was when the shop owner said that if he were being robbed he would call on his neighbors for help instead of the police. I`m sure they`ll get right on that.



I wonder how many of these granola crunchers are volunteering to help search for Kyron Horman?

http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978289121

Far easier so spout your Anarchist diatribe while others do the heavy lifting than it is to go out and do something. Something other than hang around a coffee shop and...well...spout Anarchist diatribe.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 9, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> I wonder how many of these granola crunchers are volunteering to help search for Kyron Horman?
> 
> http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978289121
> 
> Far easier so spout your Anarchist diatribe while others do the heavy lifting than it is to go out and do something. Something other than hang around a coffee shop and...well...spout Anarchist diatribe.



While I'm sure there are many people who do this, I always hate to hear this kind of argument and really - what does it have to do with the conversation at hand?

Folks - google "Portland Police Shootings" and you might find a story about a mentally ill man who drew a gun and was fired upon over 20 times.  He was failed by the state, btw. There are also many, many more stories like it.

It sounds to me like this amazing policeman UNDERSTANDS HIS BEAT.  He *knows* what goes down in the area and why many people who frequent that cafe might shy away from police officers.  He was gracious and accommodating and *didn't* take it personally. 

He also understood it was the uniform that put people on edge.  It takes class and an adult mindset to do this.

Why can we not talk about what a shame it is that the uniform has become tainted due to the actions of some bad apples?  

I'd like to know what you perfect cops on MartialTalk.com are doing in YOUR communities and in YOUR precincts to ebb this nationwide problem?

Any Portland cops on the board? Speak up, please.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 9, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> Folks - google "Portland Police Shootings" and you might find a story about a mentally ill man who drew a gun and was fired upon over 20 times.  He was failed by the state, btw. There are also many, many more stories like it.



You mean the guy who shot another officer twice? How was THAT a problem? Mentally Ill or not. Shoot me and I will shoot you as many times as required.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 9, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> While I'm sure there are many people who do this, I always hate to hear this kind of argument and really - what does it have to do with the conversation at hand.



When the shop owner said that if he were being robbed he would call on his neighbors for help instead of the police. I think that it has plenty to do with this conversation.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 9, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> When the shop owner said that if he were being robbed he would call on his neighbors for help instead of the police. I think that it has plenty to do with this conversation.



Sure does. Why do you think they don't trust the police to get there soon enough?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 9, 2010)

Well, it is a state that considers it's citizens too incompetent to pump gas on their own without proper training and certification.....


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 9, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Well, it is a state that considers it's citizens too incompetent to pump gas on their own without proper training and certification.....



Topic?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 9, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> Topic?


Setting the bar for the citizens.  

Hey...Seems my tongue in cheek comment was pretty spot on after all.



> *Red and Black Cafe Owner Explains Why He Booted  Officer*
> 
> *Portland Police Officer Kicked Out Of  Coffee Shop*
> 
> ...


 http://www.livepdx.com/portland-restaurants/23832501/detail.html

Such a good looking bunch too
http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/06/07/red-and-black-co-owner-speaks-out/



> &#8220;I don&#8217;t have anything against this particular officer and I don&#8217;t  know anything about him&#8230;A police officer in uniform makes people feel  unsafe because of previous experiences,&#8221; says Langley, who describes his  café as an &#8220;anarchist space.&#8221;
> Langley said many of his customers are homeless and marginalized by  the police. &#8220;We&#8217;re gonna value the people that have been victims of  police violence. Some of them have talked about having their belongings  being taken away or sprayed with water,&#8221; he said. &#8220;It is exacerbated by  the situation in Portland right now. The response to the mental health  crisis is shooting people and beating people to death.&#8221;



I'm sorry, but I must have missed the rash of homeless bums being beaten to death daily by Portland's StormTrooper Brigade.  

Well, I hope now that the public knows that cops aren't welcome, that these good spirited and healthy anarchists aren't relieved of any of their proletarian wealth by their fellow anarchists. Actually, if they are true anarchists, they would welcome the chaos of a good uprising in store.

I suspect a health department inspection might be in their future. Gotta make sure the bean curd is really organic and fresh y'know.

I'm all for taking cops to task when they are bad, but this just strikes me as a group of paranoid angsty teens who need to grow the **** up already.

Maybe they can enroll in a good school and get certified to pump gas and start that lucrative gas dispenser attendant career path.  :rofl:


----------



## CoryKS (Jun 9, 2010)

> Causing a worker or patron discomfort or distress for any reason (including violating our Safer Space Policy)


 
So what if I, the patron, feel discomfort or distress in the presence of the clerk?  Can I make him leave?  As "anarchists", I'm sure they won't mind if we toss the register-monkey and help ourselves to donuts and java.  At least, they won't call the police.  :rofl:


----------



## MJS (Jun 9, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Because in the one case it is perfectly legal and common, and in another case it is illegal. He might file that suit, but he would lose. It is perfectly legal to discriminate all you want - except for certain protected categories. Those categories are (in Federal law) race, color, religion, national origin, age, sex, familial status, disability, veteran status and genetic information. You will notice "job" is not on the list. No shirt, no shoes, no service? Not illegal. No construction workers? Not illegal. No cops? Not illegal.
> 
> Even "no men" or "no women" or "no blacks" might not be illegal if, for instance, the nature of a job required it. So turning a man away from working at a female strip club is also not illegal.


 
Still sounds ****ed up, if you ask me.  Of course, I found this post from Bob interesting:

"POSTED: 11:09 am PDT June 8, 2010
*PORTLAND, Ore. -- *The co-owner of a southeast Portland coffee shop said he booted a police officer out of his café because he worried the officer would resort to unnecessary violence if something went wrong.Officer James Crooker went into the Red and Black café on Southeast 12th Avenue for a cup of coffee May 18. The shop's co-owner, John Langley, asked Crooker to leave because he is a police officer.The incident first came to light in a blog post written by Cornelia Becker Seigneur.Langley is a self-described anarchist. He said he asked Crooker to leave because many of his customers do not feel safe around police and if anything went wrong in his shop, he would not be comfortable calling police for help."If there's a police officer there, I wouldn't feel safe in that situation. I would feel worried that the officer might Tase the person or potentially shoot them for having a mental health issue," Langley said. "

So, I have to wonder...if something 'went wrong' in his shop, who would he call for help?  Sounds like the owner, the co-owner and the patrons all have 1 thing in common...they're a bunch of 'winners' for a more tasteful choice of words.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 9, 2010)

A la Forrest Gump...

"Sorry. I didn't mean to break the RULES in your ANARCHIST coffee shop."

Theres some irony in there somewhere.


----------



## knuckleheader (Jun 9, 2010)

ANARCHIST coffee shop, now thats funny!

kinda like Funkin go Nuts:caffeine:


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 9, 2010)

Some of you tout the Tea Party because the Guvment isn't doing what you want.

Some of you are cops - good ones, I'm sure (or at least you claim to be).

Some of you just don't like hippies.

Some of you don't like some of the stupid laws in Oregon.

How many of you have seen the Portland homeless harassed with your own eyes - their stuff taken away? How many of you who rue this action have been harassed by police because you were doing something legal and they didn't like the way you looked?  

These people live this.  There's a saying about a mile and moccasins.  And I should know better than to try to shed light for the blind.

I'm out.


----------



## MJS (Jun 9, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> From your link:
> 
> I dont have anything against this particular officer and I dont know anything about himA police officer in uniform makes people feel unsafe because of previous experiences, says Langley, who describes his café as an anarchist space.
> Langley said many of his customers are homeless and marginalized by the police. Were gonna value the people that have been victims of police violence. Some of them have talked about having their belongings being taken away or sprayed with water, he said. It is exacerbated by the situation in Portland right now. The response to the mental health crisis is shooting people and beating people to death.
> ...


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 9, 2010)

This is rather slanted, but it's what you asked for.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 9, 2010)

Cop gets a 'gut' feeling, runs plates.  Driver begins to act erratically. Ignores repeated attempts by LEO to resolve situation peacefully. Cops escalate, person goes for a gun, and a firefight ensues.  Person is killed.

It is of course the cops fault.  If he had just let the person go, nothing would have happened.

Bad cop. Bad.  No Coffee for you.

Now go away while we sit here and read bad poetry and reflect on your evilness *snort* and enjoy the pixie dust.

****ing losers.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 9, 2010)

A hoodie in warm weather is "one" of the indicators of being armed. Although he had the gun in the glove box.

I don't know what relevance the partner supposedly saying &#8220;Are you seriously going to run that plate?&#8221; is. 99% of PD's that I am familiar with can run any plate...any time. Sounds like the partner just didn't want to work..probably wanted to stop for a coffee.

They make a valid stop for a moving violation.

Guess what?? He was armed.

BG shoots a cop twice in the legs and gets shot in return. The number of shots thing is only relevant if they continued to shoot after knowing that the subject was no longer a threat. If he was still moving and had a weapon in his hand 32 more shots wouldn't have been out of the question. 

Guess their "armed mental health patient" radar wasn't functioning that day. 

It IS a shame that the mental health profession failed him and his parents but the cops were doing good police work in this case.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 9, 2010)

I guessing that if the cop was killed and the BG was not, then the hippies would have been happier??

OTOH. There have been a seemingly high number of police shootings in Portland lately. Not saying that THAT subject shouldn't be looked into. However Im not convinced that THIS shooting is one to hang the police on. 

Also, not meaning to sound callous, but Mental issues are not a get out of jail free card either. If a crime has been committed there WILL be an arrest. The judge/jury/legal system can decide if the persons mental illness is a defense against prosecution. Police officers SHOULD be knowledgeable of mental health issues to prevent unnecessary confrontations and/or be able to apprehend a suspect with minimal use of force, but it's not a shield from justice.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 9, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> Some of you tout the Tea Party because the Guvment isn't doing what you want.



Or any other 3rd party. I don't see this as a Tea Party issue.



shesulsa said:


> Some of you are cops - good ones, I'm sure (or at least you claim to be).



Who'd claim to be a bad cop? Me, I don't claim to be a cop at all.



shesulsa said:


> Some of you just don't like hippies.



Actually, I like them quite a bit, though I find them to be incredibly naive and simplistic in their views. That and their social systems don't upscale well. I am a geek you know. 



shesulsa said:


> Some of you don't like some of the stupid laws in Oregon.



Or NJ. Or NY, or CA or any other place. 



shesulsa said:


> How many of you have seen the Portland homeless harassed with your own eyes - their stuff taken away? How many of you who rue this action have been harassed by police because you were doing something legal and they didn't like the way you looked?



Never been there, most likely will never visit.
Were they breaking any laws? Were they asked to move on and refused, got violent, and things went south from there? You know well enough how many stories of peaceful protesters, photographers and just plain tourists I've posted over the years where they were harassed, assaulted and arrested by aggressive cops. So don't paint this as me being unfair. I'm as unbiased as anyone can be.



shesulsa said:


> These people live this.  There's a saying about a mile and moccasins.  And I should know better than to try to shed light for the blind.



And, how much of that life do they create for themselves?  How much of that poor fortune did they draw to themselves? These cases aren't some innocent minding their own business getting tracked down and shot like rabid dogs. There's more to it that that, and painting it that way is a disservice to all parties, and you well know it.



shesulsa said:


> I'm out.



Pity.  I was hoping you could maybe put up a timeline of all these police actions, assaults and executions that these tofu eating commies are wet panting it over.

Injustice Everywhere shows no reports of such so far this month. Then again, it's only the 9th.

According to IE's National Police Misconduct Report, Oregon had:
OR 17 Reports
288.62 p/100k 
1154.50 p/100k Proj

In fact, it has a -lower- PMR rating than my own county.

http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/?page_id=2227

In fact, here are the few reports I did find. 6 reports for 2010. Involving a police department with just under 1,000 cops in it.

4-29-10
http://is.gd/bNvAe


> The Portland Oregon police  chief has reversed a controversial decision to exonerate an officer  of an excessive force complaint after a civilian review panel threatened  to take the case to the city council. The officer in question was  accused of unnecessarily tasering a man for recording him on video with  other officers as they performed a questionable search for a jaywalker  on private property.



5-4-10
http://is.gd/bU3rA


> Multiple law enforcement  agencies in Oregon are now part of a widening web of federal  investigations into a steroid abuse case that started in Canby Oregon  last year with the conviction of one cop and the resignation of the  police chief for covering it up. Included in the case now are a  Washington County narcotics K9 officer and a West Linn police officer  who have both resigned as well as the questioning of a Portland police  sergeant. Even more cases are expected to come out of this. You know, if  its not a valid arrest or detention, its kidnapping.



5-11-10
http://is.gd/c4wM1


> Portland Oregon has  finally settled a lawsuit for $1,600,000 to the family of James Chasse  who died in the back of a police cruiser in 2006 from injuries including  26 breaks to 16 ribs which punctured his lung that he suffered when  tackled and tasered by police who suspected that he urinated on the  street.



4-11-10
http://northeastportland.katu.com/content/admitted-officer-road-rage-we-have-victims-9-1-1-call


> The Portland Oregon police union president has  admitted to being involved in two instances of road rage against the  same family in January while an internal investigation into the  incidents is ongoing. A local station got a hold of the 911 tapes and,  during an interview, the officer told reporters that hes embarrassed  about the whole thing and would like to apologize.



4-6-10
http://is.gd/bhW7E


> A Portland Oregon police  sergeant who was involved in the questionable 2006 death of a man  who suffered 16 broken ribs when tackled by cops on allegations of  urinating in public is now under investigation on allegations that he  pulled a gun and threatened a motorist in a case of road rage. Portland  has been in our police misconduct news feed way too often lately.



3-25-10
http://www.katu.com/news/local/89096382.html


> The  Portland Oregon police department is facing a crisis of confidence,  at least according to a KATU News and Survey USA poll that shows only  56% of residents trust the police. Further into the data, 67% of black  residents and 82% of Hispanic residents distrust the citys cops. All  this came after a couple questionable officer-involved shootings  including one that garnered national attention.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 9, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> I guessing that if the cop was killed and the BG was not, then the hippies would have been happier??
> 
> OTOH. There have been a seemingly high number of police shootings in Portland lately. Not saying that THAT subject shouldn't be looked into. However Im not convinced that THIS shooting is one to hang the police on.
> 
> Also, not meaning to sound callous, but Mental issues are not a get out of jail free card either. If a crime has been committed there WILL be an arrest. The judge/jury/legal system can decide if the persons mental illness is a defense against prosecution. Police officers SHOULD be knowledgeable of mental health issues to prevent unnecessary confrontations and/or be able to apprehend a suspect with minimal use of force, but it's not a shield from justice.


Now why would anarchists want to see those crimes solved?


----------



## MJS (Jun 9, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> This is rather slanted, but it's what you asked for.


 
As I've said, many times, not every cop is good, as there are many corrupt ones.  But to focus on the link you posted:

- Unless I missed it, I did not see anything about James Chasse, and what he did, other than he was beaten by officers.  Again, I'm not condoning the beating, but I can't give an opinion when I know half the story.

-  The second case, regarding the shooting.  Officers run plates all the time, for various reasons.  Failure to signal is an offense here in CT, although I can't speak for every other state.  And this, in many cases, is what they look for.  Something simple, which gives them the right to pull over the car, and in many cases, has resulted in other findings, ie: weapons, drugs, warrants, suspended DL, no ins, etc., etc.  In this case, the person in the car did in fact have a weapon, and used it.  Why they fired so many times...this sounds like someone asking why they can't shoot the guy in the leg rather than the chest.  I think its a bit of an assumption for anyone, except the media of course, so they can continue to make the LEOs of the world out to be the bad guys, to think that 1 shot will end the situation.  Would you just punch someone once if they attacked you, and assume that'll end it?

- As for the mental health services..well, if they're like the ones in the city in which I work for, then its safe to say they suck.  If they were really worth anything, then they wouldn't be calling me as much as they do, for an escort to go evaluate a 'client' for the hundredth time.  How many times do they need to eval. someone, before its safe to say the client is ****ed in the head and needs to be in a mental hospital?  No, instead, they eval. them, possibly bring them to the ER for a committal, and before you know it, they're right back on the street, until their next eval.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo (Jun 9, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> Why can we not talk about what a shame it is that the uniform has become tainted due to the actions of some bad apples?
> 
> I'd like to know what you perfect cops on MartialTalk.com are doing in YOUR communities and in YOUR precincts to ebb this nationwide problem?
> 
> Any Portland cops on the board? Speak up, please.


 
Nationwide problem of what, exactly?  Paint with a broad brush, why don't you. 

Here's what I find laughable about this whole thing.  For a group the wants everyone to be treated as an individual, they sure are quick to classify certain groups of people as X,Y, or Z, don't you think?

Hey, all white people are racist.  And all black people are criminals.  And all Asians get good grades (well, that one...).


----------



## Carol (Jun 9, 2010)

I'd wager that I'm up to between 20-25 traffic stops or questionings (usually the former) over the last 4+ years on my midnight drive home alone.    And I dunno about the rest of you, but hate being pulled over or otherwise stopped by the police.

These folks that are not comfortable around cops...how long would they  last on a commute like mine?  Any bets?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 9, 2010)

I've driven between Cleveland and Buffalo oh, 100 times, made it from Buffalo to San Antonio and back, Buffalo to Virginia Beach to Miami, to Buffalo, Buffalo to Atlanta to Louisville to Atlanta to Buffalo, and went through 4 TSA check points.  Only time I had a long term run in with a cop was when we went to dinner with one in Savannah GA.  10,000+ miles on the highway cross country, about 35k miles the last 2 years and not -1- problem with cops.  Gee....wonder why, if there is this vast epidemic of bad cops that I haven't had issues.  Must be my great luck, good looks and hot body.
:rofl:


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 9, 2010)

Carol said:


> I'd wager that I'm up to between 20-25 traffic stops or questionings (usually the former) over the last 4+ years on my midnight drive home alone.    And I dunno about the rest of you, but hate being pulled over or otherwise stopped by the police.
> 
> These folks that are not comfortable around cops...how long would they  last on a commute like mine?  Any bets?


You have a nice smile dear. 

Oh, the coffee shop brigade would have the panic running warmly down their legs. But why would they be driving? Driving is bad for the environment, shouldn't they by biking in their berkenstocks?


----------



## Carol (Jun 9, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> You have a nice smile dear.



Awww thanks.  Being courteous and sober doens't hurt either.  Just sayin' 

Oh, the coffee shop brigade would have the panic running warmly down their legs. But why would they be driving? Driving is bad for the environment, shouldn't they by biking in their berkenstocks? [/quote]

Sure!  Hey ya know, with good tires, you can go through anything.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 9, 2010)

Remember my comments about a Health Inspector visiting them.....

http://www2.co.multnomah.or.us/Health/mchealthinspect/ListSearch.aspx?id=265021

Seems the "collectivists" have issues with hand washing.

Also, they need to get their "food handler&#8217;s certificates".  Maybe that's where someone explains to them what soap is, how it works, the proper way to lather, etc?


----------



## Ken Morgan (Jun 9, 2010)

Carol said:


> I'd wager that I'm up to between 20-25 traffic stops or questionings (usually the former) over the last 4+ years on my midnight drive home alone. And I dunno about the rest of you, but hate being pulled over or otherwise stopped by the police.
> 
> These folks that are not comfortable around cops...how long would they last on a commute like mine? Any bets?


 
Hun, sounds like the cop is looking for a date....:angel:

I've been driving for...lets just say in a few years, it'll be 30 years and I've been pulled over 3 times. 1 speeding ticket....., and 2 times for a back light out, that I didn't know about. Once a decade. No problem, they're doing their job, isn't that what my taxes are for?

These sound like the anarchist crazies on the far left, where anyone in authority can do no good, and they can do no wrong. Sadly they are allowed to breed.....


----------



## David43515 (Jun 9, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> This is rather slanted, but it's what you asked for.


 

I appreciate your point of view and I really do think that if I lived there I`d question the training of  the police, paramedics, and the hospitals in the area. But incompetance isn`t the same as brutality.

I read the article you linked to and did a search on all the names listed as having died at the hands of police.

James Chasse died of internal injuries including 26 breaks in 16 ribs after being tackled by police who were chasing him while he fled arrest. Apparently parmedics called to the scene ignored his injuries and he died after the broken ribs punctured his lungs. *That`s bad.*

Arron Campell is an iffy case. He may have been Suicide by cop, he may have been just a case of bad judgement and poor comunications on the scene. An officer with an AR-15 shot him in the back because he thought he was going for a gun and getting ready to run for cover behind several parked cars. Campell had been hold up inside with a gun making threats of suicide and threatening family members. Officers talking him out say he was coming out. An officer who repeatedly shot him with bean bags say he was refusing to follow directions and he wanted to knock him prone for everyone`s saftey. The officer who fired the AR-15 says that he was out of communication with the rest of the team or that they were`nt providing information about how the situation was progressing. When Campbell was shot with a beanbag he didn`t go down. He leaned forward as if to run (Just knocked off balance?) and appeared to be reaching quickly to his rear waistband (Possibly a pain relfex after having just been shot in the buttocks with a beanbag shotgun?). The officer with the AR-15 says he belived the armed and combative suspect was drawing his gun and preparing to head for hard cover  where he`d be a deadly threat to the officers and bystanders, so he shot him once in the back. Other officers nearby say that they couldn`t hear because of the barking K-9 unit, some say Campbell was resisting and saying "Shoot me! Shoot me!", others say they didn`t even realize he was still on the scene because of the lack of communications going on. *All around bad policework in hindsight, but I wouldn`t want to be faced with the split-second decision the officer had to make w/o really knowing what was going on.*

The rest on the list, I couldn`t blame the cops at all according to all the news reports.

Richard "Dickie"  Dow ran from police responding to a complaint about a street fight in progress. When they caught up with him in front of his mother`s house, he was so worked up that he stopped breathing and collapsed. He died while police were giving him CPR. No reports of violence or misconduct here. *Lesson: Don`t run from the cops, ESPECIALLY if you`re that out of shape. *

*Deontae Keller, Jose Meija Poot, Kendra James, and James Jahar Perez *were all shot while attacking a police officer at close range with a lethal weapon. Some firearms, one a razor knife, one an iron bar, and one while trying to run the cop over with her car.

I consider myself a pretty patient and compassionate guy, but in the same situation I`d have shot any one of them that attacked me or someone in the near vicinity.


----------



## Carol (Jun 10, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Hun, sounds like the cop is looking for a date....:angel:



They were rather handsome...but sadly, no...it wasn't that. :lol:  When I lived in Mass, the concern was about drunks, I am on the road when the taverns close.  

Up here....its still about drunks, somewhat.  But perhaps more importantly, the towns here roll up their streets at night.  No 2nd or 3rd shift jobs, no place to stop other than coffee at Dunks or a 7-11. If you're anyplace else, including jockeying cars around at the mechanic's with your colleague so it can be fixed in the morning, or pulling over on a side street to take a call from the boss...that is usually enough to trigger a visit from the nice police officer who wants to make sure you aren't causing trouble (or you aren't IN trouble).


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 10, 2010)

Someone asked for a link. I found one quickly. I did no research.  I'm sure google won't provide accurate results for "Portland police officer takes food from hippie" or "Portland police officer rips up box - 'home' to "T-bone", a gulf war vet" and etcetera.

Is it wrong to hate a cop just cuz he's a cop? Sure. 

I guess I'm seeing this incident as another marker of the divide between police and citizens who need their protection ... a decay of trust.  Some people want that mended, others don't give a ****.

I'd like to see it mended, hence I try to communicate and hopefully facilitate understanding ... but that takes willingness of people on both sides of that fence.

I really have no dog in this hunt, but I find it sadly typical that those sensitive to any kind of anti-cop sentiment over-react.  Go ahead, pound that square peg some more. It's bound to cave one day, one way or the other.


----------



## MJS (Jun 10, 2010)

There was a case very recently in the city in which I work in.  A short breakdown on what happened, as  I dont want to sidetrack this thread totally.  A 911 call was placed by a very uncooprative female, that a male in the house was out of control and hiding under his bed.  No mention of age or size or anything else...again, she wasn't cooperating.  Upon looking at this, one would think that the person was a child.  Upon 2 officers arriving, they encountered a very large, built, 35yo male.  He was so large, that they had to link 3, yes 3 pairs of handcuffs together, however, he was able to bring his hands to the front, and began resisting.  

As this went on, he became more and more combative.  Every cop that was working that night went to the call, in addition to a K9 officer, officers with Tasers and other less lethal weapons.  The officers on scene were requesting more help, and other depts. were called.  This guy even choked out the K9.  

The guy ended up going into cardiac arrest, was brought to the hospital and eventually died.  

What happened next?  Tons and tons of comments, from people, many who were not likely there, and only heard what the media told them.  Things such as, "Why didn't they use a tranqualizer gun on him rather than a taser?"  "Why did it take so many officers to restrain him?"  These are just a few of the many.  

Fact is, is that 9 times out of 10, people who have no LEO background are making assumptions.  Someone said something about walking in someone elses shoes...well, same applies here.  Mental status has nothing to do with it.  In the stories that were linked, the guy had a weapon, resisted, fired at the cops, and people are wondering why he died?  Are you ****ing kidding me?!?!?!?!?!

I think people get tired of the anti cop comments, because its those same people who seem to always think the cop is wrong, but never give a solution.  I would have loved to have seen any of those people, commenting on that story that happened where I work, control this guy, and then ask them if they needed more than 2 officers.  Anytime someone dies, yes, it is a shame, but I'd like to see these same people placed in the same situation as the cops.  Its easy to say that you'd talk the person down or be able to control them, but its not always that easy.

I'll say it again...there are bad cops out there, but there are good ones as well.  Whats sad, is when ALL cops get lumped into the same group.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 10, 2010)

People always seem to be leaning toward "lets disarm cops...lets make it a law that they have to shoot to wound...take away their tasers....OC spray is a chemical weapon...why did it take so many cops...whay so many shots."

Now while I do agree that the police are representatives of the gvt and as such need to have an "eye" kept on them, they DO have a job to do. The problem is that people don't like the fact that sometimes doing this job can be ugly.

It seems like the trend is towards hamstringing the police to make the people they arrest "safer" and make arresting them less "ugly". They seem to ignore the fact that WE are people too, people with families and loved ones. Is OUR safety somehow less important than others? It seems like people think that we are robots. Kill and injure all of them you want..we will get more. Tasers result in some people dying, but other methods result in more people and more cops dying or being injured. There is no 100% safe method out there. You want to be 100% safe from being killed by a cop? Don't fight with them. Don't run from them then reach into your waistband.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 10, 2010)

I'll applaud the good ones, and I'll rotten tomatoe the bad ones.  I've long considered a "walk of shame" here to link to the _convicted_ bad cops.  I read a dozen 'bad cop' blogs weekly. Hell, I get stories right from the source. I don't have a problem with cops, at least not so far in 40 years. Ok, there was "Officer Luigi" (named due to his unbuttoned 4 down uniform shirt with shrubbery and gold chain) who back in the mid 90's pulled me over and lied in traffic court about my speed and his daily calibration of his gear. But other than that, I've been fine.  100k miles and minimal problems.

So here we have a cafe full of "anarchists" (who I'm sure would crap themselves if a true anarchy situation occurred), who have a history of problems with the police, who sit around and complain about the police, and who tell each other tales of their run ins with the police, tales which I am sure are 100% accurate, factual and not the least bit embellished btw.

Why do all these people have problems with the cops? What's the background?  A friend of their cousins brothers roommate got hassled for having an illegal narcotic? Someone was pulled over at a traffic stop driving with an expired license, no insurance and past due plates?  They tried pumping their own gas with out the proper training and certification?  Curious minds would like to know.

You run from the cops, the cops get suspicious. You make a sudden move, the cop has to make a split decision. You draw a weapon, you deserve the bullet you take.

Read that last line one more time.

_You draw a weapon, you deserve the bullet you take._

Remember that rant of mine about you make your own choices?

Someone who -_chooses_- to run, -_chooses_- to act in a suspicious and/or threatening manner, someone who -_chooses_- to go for a potential weapon....you just *chose* to die. Only a complete moron, no, absolute moron, would think "No, he was just scared, he was reaching for his ID, and the cop should have know this.".

And anyone who says "they should have shot to wound" is probably someone who has no idea what it's like, and has no experience handling a gun other than their PS3 toy, and deserves a size 11 steel toe in their ***.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 10, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> So here we have a cafe full of "anarchists" (who I'm sure would crap themselves if a true anarchy situation occurred), who have a history of problems with the police, who sit around and complain about the police, and who tell each other tales of their run ins with the police, tales which I am sure are 100% accurate, factual and not the least bit embellished btw.



Thats a very interesting point Bob. It is sort of Ironic that these kids have the freedom to able to sit around a coffee shop and spout their Anarchist rants due to the fact that this country has laws protecting that freedom and police to enforce them.


----------



## Carol (Jun 10, 2010)

Lets say, I have to pick up someone....say my sister, at the airport next Saturday.  She has never been to NH before.  

Her plane lands at 8am.  But...oh crap...the boss just called me and I have an urgent meeting...if I miss this meeting, I could lose my job.  I can't be there until 9:15.

So my sister lands, and she's waiting, and she's worried, and she's wondering where I am, or if I'm in the right place.  She has me paged.  She calls my cell, but gets voice mail.  She finally sits down, depressed, worried, and lost, and doesn't know what she can do, in this strange city by herself.  Then I finally come in to greet her. "Sis, I'm so sorry" She give me a hug, but she's upset.  So good to see you!  What happened?  she asked.  I've been waiting, are you OK? 

*rewind*

Lets say, I have to pick up someone....say my sister, at the airport next Saturday.  She has never been to NH before.

Her plane lands at 8am.  But...oh crap...the boss just called me and I  have an urgent meeting...if I miss this meeting, I could lose my job.  I  can't be there until 9:15.


*dials phone*  "Hey sis, you there?   Oh yeah, I'm fine...but I can't be there until 10:15, urgent meeting.  Hey, you know what you can do, after you get your bags, go right back upstairs.  You'll see a Dunkin Donuts.  What?  Oh its big, you can't miss it.  There's a newstand there too with the local paper and a few paperbacks.     I promise you I will be there as early as I can."

My sister lands.  She gets some breakfast, and sits down to read a paperback she brought with her, and scanning through the newspaper and gets her favorite coffee, half-decaf.   

I go to greet her "Sis, I'm so sorry".   She shakes her head, oh no its fine and great to see you!  How was that meeting? Hey I was reading through the paper and this ad mentions a big flea market tomorrow!  Do you know where that is?  Is it far?  And how far up are those mountains out the windows there.  Is that something we can do in a day?  

First Scenario.  I was 1:15 late.

Second Scenario.   I was 1:15 late.

Identical actions.

The difference in the second scenario is that I had set reasonable expectations, and I had managed those expectations. 

When a relationship between things is tense, it is usually not from _actions_, it is from mismanaged and unrealistic _expectations_.


----------



## David43515 (Jun 10, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> Someone asked for a link. I found one quickly. I did no research. I'm sure google won't provide accurate results for "Portland police officer takes food from hippie" or "Portland police officer rips up box - 'home' to "T-bone", a gulf war vet" and etcetera.
> 
> Is it wrong to hate a cop just cuz he's a cop? Sure.
> 
> ...


 


Shesula, I hope that you don`t think I`m trying to pound that square peg in. I`m not trying to jump on you. I really respect you for being able to see both sides of the story and for trying to bridge the gap. That takes so much patience and alot of understanding. 

I can`t stand a cop or any other authority figure who abuses thier position for thier own little power trips. And believe me I know that it happens far far too often. I just like to think (however nievely) that those cases are the exception to the rule. When I posted about the deaths of those people I wasn`t trying to be confrontational. I guess I was just trying to say that the examples those folks sited weren`t very good examples of the point they were trying to make.

You`re right on the money when you said that this story really marks just how much of a divide exists between the police and the people they`re tasked with protecting. I think that the biggest problem here is one of perception. How to change that perception is the real question. It sounds like the cop in this story is doing a good job at not making things worse. How do we make them better?

Hmmm. I get the feeling I talk too much.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 10, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Thats a very interesting point Bob. It is sort of Ironic that these kids have the freedom to able to sit around a coffee shop and spout their Anarchist rants due to the fact that this country has laws protecting that freedom and police to enforce them.


If anarchy ruled, I could walk into their little cafe, smack em around, take what I wanted from the til, not worry about paying for my coffee, and take a crap on the counter, and all they could do is go "Anarchy rulze!". Or grab a chair and defend.  In the end, it'd be last man standing left to light the fire and burn the place to the ground, and they'd have no recourse.  But, we live in a society that has laws, that limit such actions, that have law enforcement officials who will respond to such and take action, and jails to hold such individuals, and courts to try them and force restitution for damages, and a military that allows them to be different and not have to confirm. Such truths are lost on them. It's easier to "hate the man" than to acknowledge that the hated "man" is who makes it possible for them to express their hate at all.

Try doing that in Iran, Mexico, Saudi Arabia or 20 other nations. Hell, try doing it in Somalia where Anarchy does rule.  I bet they don't even have a vegan anarchist coffeeshop there.  

I wonder why.


----------



## Carol (Jun 11, 2010)

Wait....

Georgia is saying "he was mentally ill, and so were others."
Arch is saying "He was frigging shooting at me (or my brothers/sisters)"

Quick reaction, yes.  I bet those reflexes have saved Arch's life more times than one, and that's a good thing.  And I also know Georgia would be the last person to say that one person's life is more valuable than another's.  She'd be the last person to think "Tough Arch, he's ill.  Bleed out!"

What she is trying to say is that this is the wrong demographic of people to be attacking cops.  Isn't it the drunks?  Or the junkies?   Or the gangbangers?   Or the guys that have their girl double as an everlast bag?  Or the jerk who has eleventy-seven bench warrants and is about to have a very bad tomorrow trying to explain it all to the arraignment judge? 

Why are these young people, these high or potentially high functioning young people who are having trouble keeping their disorder contained because none of the keys seem to fit their lock....why are they dying?  

Why is it that the are attacking cops?  Why are they attacking cops in a town like PDX which, as Bob pointed out, has a lower than average misconduct rate?  

The guy at Red and Black did not say "I do this because I hate cops", he said he does this because of the broken mental health system.  Police offers end up being the one who killed the trigger, so they bear the brunt of the blame. 

So the concern is that there are more of these men out there, like the ones who have perished....so there will be more who attack cops.  Keeping them away from cops, perhaps that prevents encounters will cause the guy to go ballistic, and get shot down.  Remember, bipolar people may have a distorted sense of reality. If they feel safe in the shop, then maybe they will feel safe enough to live their entire day peacefully.

The solution is.....there isn't one.  Even if the city fathers announce tomorrow and "We're going to build more community mental health clinics," they will take time to build.  And of course, the reality is, short of a miracle, the city fathers are not going to announce that they are going to build clinics, or do anything at all about the problem.  As a country we try to take care of our severely disabled, but PDX has lost  quite literally 3 to mental illness.  They don't want to lose any more of their citizenry.   And...with no other place to go, the tension against the police is rising.  


That...is a problem with no easy answers, and one that may get worse instaad of better.  I....have no idea what to do.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 11, 2010)

Good post Carol.

The only thing I would add is that while the VAST majority of the clinically Mental Ill are not violent, that does not mean that the mentally ill cannot be:



> drunks? Or the junkies? Or the gangbangers? Or the guys that have their girl double as an everlast bag? Or the jerk who has eleventy-seven bench warrants and is about to have a very bad tomorrow trying to explain it all to the arraignment judge?


 
All of those guys/gals could easily be mentally ill too.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/294626-overview



> Nearly any psychiatric symptom can be associated with criminality, because symptoms can impair judgment and violate societal norms. For example, an individual with insomnia due to major depression may fall asleep while driving and kill a pedestrian, resulting in a manslaughter conviction. Frequent psychiatric conditions associated with criminality are listed below.
> However, most individuals with mental illness are not violent.[URL="http://javascript<b></b>:showcontent('active','references');"]1 [/URL]A study of individuals with psychotic disorders found that those with a mental illness were responsible for only 5% of all violent crimes.[URL="http://javascript<b></b>:showcontent('active','references');"]2 [/URL]An exception to this rule involves sexual offenders, who had high rates of substance use disorders, paraphilias, mood disorders, impulse control disorders, anxiety disorders, eating disorders, and antisocial personality disorders.[URL="http://javascript<b></b>:showcontent('active','references');"]3 [/URL]Other exceptions include antisocial personality disorder and substance abuse.<A href="javascript:showcontent('active','references');">4


 
So while it IS possible that a persons mental illness could exempt them from culpability for their criminal act, their act still is criminal and we will respond accordingly. If some guy kills someone in a psychotic episode out of his control, I will arrest him. The legal prfessionals can decide if he goes to prison or a hospital.

Like I said. Most of the mentally ill don't run into these problems. but like much of police work, we tend to deal with the 5% that do have problems.


----------



## Carol (Jun 11, 2010)

I fully agree!  The vast majority are not violent.  And a strong majority can be treated successfully and go back to living normal lives.  But 3 in one towkn...one is a flue, two a trend, three a pattern....that is something that is  a problem that is more specific to that locale.  Just like wannabe gang bangers are more specific to my locale (everyone else seems to have the real deal, unfortunately).

What has me concerned is the concept of a safe haven.  No one needs a safe haven for "doing much better now but the meds make me a bit more thirsty".   There's a concern about more of the folks in the city that aren't stabilized.  Maybe none of them have any hurtful tendencies at all.  But they could also end up like Eric, who never harmed a soul, had a loving family, a brother (with normal cognition) that adored him, and access to great doctors....and still nothing could be due to stabilize him before Poseidon snatched his life away.


----------



## knuckleheader (Jun 11, 2010)

Anarchist don't enjoy anarchy when it visits their domain?

friggin sily people I tell ya


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 11, 2010)

Who attacks cops?  People.  Some are drugged, some are drunk, some are just plain crazy, some are malicious, a very few are downright evil... but they come from all walks of life.

I've got a study on my desk at work of law enforcement officers killed or assaulted; I'm going off my recollection.  They did find common factors -- but very few if any of them had to do with the offender.  Most had to do with the officer and the circumstances.

The cop in Portland handled the situation well.  The coffee shop worker?  He's coming off looking like an over-reacting jerk who probably got a kick out of (finally) being able to tell a cop what to do.

Regarding anarchy in general, Larry Niven wrote a very interesting story about "free parks" where just about anything went -- and what happened when REAL anarchy hit.  It's called "Cloak of Anarchy" and it used to be available on line, but I'm having trouble finding a good link.


----------



## CoryKS (Jun 11, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Regarding anarchy in general, Larry Niven wrote a very interesting story about "free parks" where just about anything went -- and what happened when REAL anarchy hit. It's called "Cloak of Anarchy" and it used to be available on line, but I'm having trouble finding a good link.


 
Had a friend in high school who was an "anarchist", used to describe all these scenarios about how great things would be.  I told him that if we were in a state of anarchy I would stab him in the throat and take his wallet.  The look on his face was priceless; he seriously hadn't considered that possibility.


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 11, 2010)

My point, actually, is the continuing divide.  I *support* police.  Anyone who's been here long enough to read both sides of my writing on police and their actions ... KNOWS ... that I support police.  

But I think it's incredibly hypocritical to consistently argue that cops are always in the right, because they're just not.  Sometimes they create their own problems or make problems like community relations worse.

Like I said ... ya gotta care about the problem to do anything about it.  When police are willing to reach out and educate/relate to the community as best they can rather than lording authority over them, things will get better.  And when citizens are willing to step up and recognize the incredibly difficult job police do and how their actions become justified in the eyes of the law, things will get better.

Nothing can be accomplished to improve the job nor morale of police nor compliance in the private sector without both sides taking a step.

The young anarchists at the black and red cafe have a good spirit, really - they just don't know how to aim it and I think while their safer space policy is an attempt at completely avoiding potential problems at the cafe, it does bring about a bigger one.  But then again, so does ripping up T-Bone's cardboard home or stealing his meal.

And not all who dine at the Red and Black are mentally ill - I didn't say that.  I pointed out that there have been a number of shootings in Portland (and nearby cities in the Metro area) of mentally ill persons.  It is _one example_ that tugs on the heartstrings of the general public and provides a huge target for anarchists.


----------



## MJS (Jun 11, 2010)

Carol said:


> Wait....
> 
> Georgia is saying "he was mentally ill, and so were others."
> Arch is saying "He was frigging shooting at me (or my brothers/sisters)"
> ...


 
Good points.  People frown upon any situation where a LEO shoots and possibly kills someone, they frown more when its a mentally challenged person.  However, while both cases are bad, IMHO, I just dont see how either situation could be handled differently.  I mean, you could have 2 people, person 1, just a pure badguy, who hates cops, robs, steals, etc., and person 2, who has mental issues, but isn't in the same group as person 1, yet they're both armed, and intend on shooting the cops.  What is the cop supposed to do?

In that case that I mentioned, that happened where I work, I do not believe this guy was 'all there', thus the situation turned ugly very fast.  It was a shame that the guy died, but....it seems to me, that when the cops are faced with a deadly force situation, the general public seems to think that they should not respond in the same fashion.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 11, 2010)

shesulsa said:


> But I think it's incredibly hypocritical to *consistently argue that cops are always in the right*, because they're just not.



Who has done that? I think that every one of us has explicitly stated that this is not the case. However I don't think that the cops who shot a guy that shot at them were "in the wrong".


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 11, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Who has done that? I think that every one of us has explicitly stated that this is not the case. However I don't think that the cops who shot a guy that shot at them were "in the wrong".


1 look at either "war on photography" threads will clearly show that I don't view cops as 'always right'. Hell, I had a few folks tell me all I did was "cop bash" because I put up a half dozen threads in short order.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 11, 2010)

You can always find what you are looking for on the internet. If you want to find "bad cop" stories there they are.

At some point it seems to become more a matter of "what you are looking for" than it is the prevalence of the behavior IMO.


----------



## Carol (Jun 12, 2010)

No one here has argued that cops are always in the right.  Nor do we have posters (not regular ones, anyway) that offer knee jerk "Cops good Civilians bad" positions.

The discussions here dig past the opinions and get to the justifications.  In the thread we had some months back about the Latino plumber from NYC who was jailed for 5 days for possession of .... coconut candy, I think there was at least one LEO that said the situation could be something that was bad (for the police).  I am sure there are folks here, especially LEOs, that offer very strong support for the police.  That's what they do and that's their game.  If we had posts about telecom engineers, you'd here the same from me I guarantee it.  But no one notices us.  That's a good thing....the only time you notice us is when we are NOT doing our job.  We like being unnoticed. 

It sounds like there are a lot of mismanaged expectations in the PDX area.  Mismanaged expectations cause more harm than actions.  

So what is the fix?  If everyone depends on the other to "do something", it won't be.   So why the standoff?  

For you instructors out there, have you ever had a student in class that just didn't want to learn?  You tried to teach them, even gave your time to that one singular individual that may have been better invested in the enthusiastic folks that wanted to be there....especially the ones that tried really really hard but needed a li'l bit more reach to get their game on.  But the ones that don't want to be there....they don't learn very much, do they?

Guy that lived across the hall from me at Berklee.  He didn't want to be there.  He REALLY didn't want to be there.  But he was there because his parents wanted him to be there.  So he never went to class, spent the time getting stoned, or drunk, got put on academic probation upon processing his first semester grades, and given the "hasta la vista, baby" upon processing his second semester grades.   Don't anyone think a world class music school is an "easy ride".

What will it take to reach the people of PDX?   There are more folks there that are like Georgia that have an open mind and heart.  There are also a lot of folks out west that are very angry with the police and consistently point their angers at the *enforcers *of the laws, rather than the *makers *of the laws.  I do not think it is unreasonable to say that partisan politics is a dominant factor here.  It may not be the only factor, and it may not be the only dominant factor.  But it is still a strong one, nonetheless, and regardless of one's own political compass, it is a factor that must be accounted for.

What if you were a police chief in this scenario?  No...scratch that...what if you were the _mayor_?   

Would _you _authorize a budget to spend millions of dollars...millions of dollars that could do a lot of things to benefit residents of the city of Portland....to build Community Police Stations and Public Outreach Centers and pay the overtime to get your seasoned veterans...you know, not the ones that just recite policy verbatim, the ones that KNOW the job...to work and interact with the public?   Would you do that knowing the public may not give a rats backside regardless?   Is that responsible management of the coffers?   Or, come election time, will you be denigrated as someone squandering precious resources at a time when all of us are tightening our belts by pursuing unrealistic pet projects that everyone said would fail?  

I don't know what the answer is.   I suspect there needs to be more of a conciliatory voice from _both _sides before there will be any real results.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 12, 2010)

knuckleheader said:


> Anarchist don't enjoy anarchy when it visits their domain?
> 
> friggin sily people I tell ya



Thats because a vast majority of these "Intellectual Anarchists" arent... they are social rebels and Neo-Beatniks, with no concept of actual anarchy.  Politically I lean twords being a Free-market anarchist, (not to be confused with "anarchists" or "anarchy") and I have read a lot of the websites for these so-called anarchist groups, and most of them are just Liberals, Marxists or Green party people playing at being "bad".  They are hard to take seriously, especially when you have seen "Real" anarchists armed with Riot Gear they cut from 50 gallon steel drums gearing up for a clash with riot cops in D.C.

A bunch of college kids and professors sitting around talking about how they are gonna have a food-distribution rally for the homeless is pretty tame at that point.


----------



## MJS (Jun 12, 2010)

Lets look at the mental illness a bit.  Officers spend a set amount of time in the academy, learning a variety of things, from firearms, laws, arrest, driving, to name a few.  It would be nice if they got more time in certain areas, but what they get is what they get.  Their job is to uphold the laws.

Mental health workers...pretty much every PD has access to some sort of mental health crisis team.  IMO, they're pretty much useless.  We take calls from them weekly, and there're many times, when officers are on scene at a call, and they request this 'team' to come to eval. someone.  Why do I feel they're useless?  Because if they were really helping the people with the mental illness, those people wouldn't be returned to their home, with little to nothing done.  So the cycle repeats itself the next time, with the PD dealing with these people again....and again, and again, and again, and................

How much mental health training, along with everything else they have to learn, should the cops have, if any at all?  Should the cops be doctors as well?  

My point is, people seem to get upset with the cops because they supposedly dont know how to deal with the folks with mental issues, however, that IMO, should be fine, as there're people to deal with that...the crisis workers.  Its like sending a cop to a structure fire.  Sure, they go to help with traffic control, crowd control, etc, but they dont help the firefighters put out the fire.  Why?  Because they're LEOs not firefighters.


----------



## MJS (Jun 19, 2010)

Gee, I thought I'd get at least 1 taker that was interested in talking about mental illness training for LEOs, and whether or not its something that should be done, or left to the pros.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 19, 2010)

MJS said:


> Gee, I thought I'd get at least 1 taker that was interested in talking about mental illness training for LEOs, and whether or not its something that should be done, or left to the pros.



Its pointless to expect beat cops to be mental health experts... in many cases diagnosing specific mental illness takes multiple seeions or long periods of observation, something that most cops on the scene don't have time for.


----------



## MJS (Jun 19, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> Its pointless to expect beat cops to be mental health experts... in many cases diagnosing specific mental illness takes multiple seeions or long periods of observation, something that most cops on the scene don't have time for.


 
Agreed, however, this is the impression that I was getting from some posts.  Perhaps I was misreading the intent behind them though.


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 20, 2010)

It seems like you're asking about involuntary commitments.  There's a wide range from state to state in how this is handled.  Virginia recently relaxed some of the requirements on the doctor's end of things, in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings.  For the cops, if we have reason to believe that a person is a threat to themselves or others, we can take 'em in for evaluation.  We get some very broad, generic training to figure out what this constitutes... but nobody really expects us to become psychologists.  We also get a good handle on crisis communication through the nature of the job.


----------



## MJS (Jun 20, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> It seems like you're asking about involuntary commitments. There's a wide range from state to state in how this is handled. Virginia recently relaxed some of the requirements on the doctor's end of things, in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings. For the cops, if we have reason to believe that a person is a threat to themselves or others, we can take 'em in for evaluation. We get some very broad, generic training to figure out what this constitutes... but nobody really expects us to become psychologists. We also get a good handle on crisis communication through the nature of the job.


 
Im just looking to further the thread, as it seemed to me anyways, that some people felt that the cops were not trained to deal with people with mental issues.  Where I work, the cops deal with people with mental issues all the time.  We have a mobil crisis unit, that we can call, if the person the cops are dealing with is already a client of mobil crisis.  The cops have requested an ambulance to respond to bring the person to the ER, and a doc there does the eval. and the cop writes the paper.  

As I said earlier, IMHO, I feel the cops have enough to deal with, without having to be trained as mental health doctors.  If people in an area have a bad picture painted of the cops, well, that lies on the cops as well as the general public.  Its kinda like judging a martial art from youtube.  IMO, its better to form your own opinion, rather than go on what others say.


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 20, 2010)

MJS said:


> Im just looking to further the thread, as it seemed to me anyways, that some people felt that the cops were not trained to deal with people with mental issues.  Where I work, the cops deal with people with mental issues all the time.  We have a mobil crisis unit, that we can call, if the person the cops are dealing with is already a client of mobil crisis.  The cops have requested an ambulance to respond to bring the person to the ER, and a doc there does the eval. and the cop writes the paper.
> 
> As I said earlier, IMHO, I feel the cops have enough to deal with, without having to be trained as mental health doctors.  If people in an area have a bad picture painted of the cops, well, that lies on the cops as well as the general public.  Its kinda like judging a martial art from youtube.  IMO, its better to form your own opinion, rather than go on what others say.


We've got a mobile crisis unit available, and they have the capability to respond to a scene if needed.  They're actual docs/therapists, and they have the authority to issue a temporary/emergency detention order.  But, I've got to say, in my experience, you're lucky if you can talk to one of them on the phone too often.  Cops in the street do their best to make a call, and we transport them to a facility for evaluation.  They can hold them 4 hours based on that...  It gets complicated from there.

The bottom line is that cops in the street do have to deal with people with mental problems, ranging from very sub-standard IQ to full blown schizophrenia.  But our toolbox is limited, both from an authority standpoint and a practicality standpoint.  We just don't have time to learn to be therapists or whatever; if a person is acting nuts, we deal with them.  And, if a person is posing a threat to us or to others -- we're going to act to deal with that threat.  Bats, knives, bullets, and fists don't hurt less if the person using them has mental problems...


----------



## MJS (Jun 20, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> We've got a mobile crisis unit available, and they have the capability to respond to a scene if needed. They're actual docs/therapists, and they have the authority to issue a temporary/emergency detention order. But, I've got to say, in my experience, you're lucky if you can talk to one of them on the phone too often. Cops in the street do their best to make a call, and we transport them to a facility for evaluation. They can hold them 4 hours based on that... It gets complicated from there.


 
Well, I wouldn't say that I'm lucky...I actually hate calling them. LOL.  The dispatchers usually make the calls, and the crisis team will either respond to the scene or will meet the officer at the ER.  



> The bottom line is that cops in the street do have to deal with people with mental problems, ranging from very sub-standard IQ to full blown schizophrenia. But our toolbox is limited, both from an authority standpoint and a practicality standpoint. We just don't have time to learn to be therapists or whatever; if a person is acting nuts, we deal with them. And, if a person is posing a threat to us or to others -- we're going to act to deal with that threat. Bats, knives, bullets, and fists don't hurt less if the person using them has mental problems...


 
Agreed.  I didn't want to give the impression that I want the cops to be doctors as well.  IMO, they have enough to deal with.  Yes dealing with the mentally ill is part of the job, but there're people available, as we both acknowledge.  The frustrating part is that the public wants the cops to be a jack of all trades.  

I'd love to make a telephone recording and put it on the phones where I work.  It'd go something like this:  Press 1 if you'd like help raising your child, press 2 for the weather, 3 if you've locked yourself out of your house and want the police to help you get back in, 4 if........

LOL!  Sad but true.  I'm sure we could write a book, filled with interesting stories.


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 20, 2010)

MJS said:


> I'd love to make a telephone recording and put it on the phones where I work.  It'd go something like this:  Press 1 if you'd like help raising your child, press 2 for the weather, 3 if you've locked yourself out of your house and want the police to help you get back in, 4 if........


There's a recording around like that already...  I think we could raise $10 from every cop & dispatcher in the country for the agency with the guts to actually use it for a month!


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 20, 2010)

MJS said:


> Well, I wouldn't say that I'm lucky...I actually hate calling them. LOL.  The dispatchers usually make the calls, and the crisis team will either respond to the scene or will meet the officer at the ER.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If people only knew all of the strange things people call the police for....


----------



## chaos1551 (Jun 21, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> If people only knew all of the strange things people call the police for....



The plane is late?  Wrong order at McDonald's?  Black person in a predominantly white neighborhood?  Taxi driver wouldn't give you your change?  Husband won't give you the remote control?  

My brother works in emergency dispatch.  My favorite stories are the ones from which he calls "repeat customers".

Cops: babysitters for adults.


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 21, 2010)

chaos1551 said:


> The plane is late?  Wrong order at McDonald's?  Black person in a predominantly white neighborhood?  Taxi driver wouldn't give you your change?  Husband won't give you the remote control?
> 
> My brother works in emergency dispatch.  My favorite stories are the ones from which he calls "repeat customers".
> 
> Cops: babysitters for adults.



Yup.

And most of the times we actually have to go to these calls and deal with them. If someone calls the police...we go.


----------

