# Siu Lim Tao - Proper breathing



## Nanuqcz

Hello,
how should I breath in Siu Lim Tao form? Especially when to breath in, and when to breath out?

My Sifu said it is not important, when I asked him. But I don't beleave it. That's why I am asking you here.

Based on Qi Gong, I suppose this principles:
1) When my arms goes close to my body, I should breath in.
2) When my arms goes away from my body, I should breath out.

But I can't be sure it's true for every move in the form. Also in the form, there are many moves in which you can't apply these principies, because your arms doesn't go closer or away from your body (end of the 4th set, or 6th set), so these principles will not work here.

Thanks,
Michal Mikolas
(practicing Wing-Chun for about 7 months now)


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## tobakudan

My friend told me that, based on what he was taught in Tai Chi, the opposite was correct


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## Phobius

Nanuqcz said:


> Hello,
> how should I breath in Siu Lim Tao form? Especially when to breath in, and when to breath out?
> 
> My Sifu said it is not important, when I asked him. But I don't beleave it. That's why I am asking you here.
> 
> Based on Qi Gong, I suppose this principles:
> 1) When my arms goes close to my body, I should breath in.
> 2) When my arms goes away from my body, I should breath out.
> 
> But I can't be sure it's true for every move in the form. Also in the form, there are many moves in which you can't apply these principies, because your arms doesn't go closer or away from your body (end of the 4th set, or 6th set), so these principles will not work here.
> 
> Thanks,
> Michal Mikolas
> (practicing Wing-Chun for about 7 months now)



Breath normally and relax as you cant move quickly if your breath must align with techniques or punches. You will pass out in a fight.


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## tobakudan

Phobius said:


> Breath normally and relax as you cant move quickly if your breath must align with techniques or punches. You will pass out in a fight.



I don't think that's a valid argument against aligning the breath with your movement. The purpose of doing so isn't because that's what you want to do during a fight, just as we don't practice the form slowly because that's the speed we will be moving at when we fight.


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## Nanuqcz

Phobius said:


> ... you cant move quickly if your breath must align with techniques...



I red somewhere that Siu Lim Tao is based on Qi Gong. And in Qi Gong it is very important to make your movements aligned with your breathing. So, do you say this information is incorrect?

Thanks.


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## tobakudan

Nanuqcz said:


> I red somewhere that Siu Lim Tao is based on Qi Gong. And in Qi Gong it is very important to make your movements aligned with your breathing. So, do you say this information is incorrect?
> 
> Thanks.



No idea, to be honest. Just letting you know that, according to my friend, the pattern is opposite in Tai Chi, in which breathing is also very important.


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## Danny T

Breathe normally.
There are multi layers of understanding SNT.
Part of SNT is about feeling the changes in your center of gravity and learning how your breathing affects it.
Breathe normally.


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## geezer

I would agree that you should breathe normally, but "abdominally" i.e. downward by lowering your diaphragm rather than by expanding your chest. the relaxed, slightly concave chest position encourages this, and this also helps lower your center of gravity and helps you become more rooted and stable.

Another thing my old sifu told me was to breathe in through the nose and out through the mouth through slightly parted lips, relaxing everything that is not specifically required to be in tension at any given instant.

Lastly, it would be impossible to attempt to synchronize your breathing with the extension and contraction of your hand movements as is often done in disciplines like yoga or taijiquan, since the speed of our movements _varies_ so much. The _saam pai fut_ (tan-sau/fook-sau and wu-sau) sequence is done very slowly, often too slowly to synchronize with your breathing, while other movements later in the form such are properly performed too rapidly to link with your breathing. So deep, natural relaxed breathing independent of your hand movements is preferable.

Oddly, at times in sparring, I actually do exhale when striking, sometimes using one breath for a fast three-shot combination, other times with a single breath linked to a strong power-shot or "finishing" blow. Can't say if this is a good thing from a WC perspective, ....it just happens and feels right. Other times, throwing fast flurries, you really can't link your breathing to striking. You'd end up hyperventilating!


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## Nanuqcz

geezer: Thanks, that does make sense


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## Phobius

Nanuqcz said:


> geezer: Thanks, that does make sense



Geezer has a way with words. I think I just skip explaining what I meant and say listen to geezer instead.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

If your sifu told you not to worry about it, don't worry about it. He likely has a very specific reason for saying that (most likely either that you have not learned how to breathe properly for that form yet, or he does not want you to focus on that until you understand the rest of the form better), and his own style may contradict the advice your getting on an internet forum anyway.


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## oaktree

Nanuqcz said:


> I red somewhere that Siu Lim Tao is based on Qi Gong. And in Qi Gong it is very important to make your movements aligned with your breathing. So, do you say this information is incorrect?
> 
> Thanks.


Depends on what type of qigong you are doing and the intent. When the mind is regulated the breath follows, when the breath is smooth and relaxed natural and not following artificial means the qi will be smooth as well, the shen will be fixed in its location and good health will follow.artificially breathing is called quick fire it produces a result but it is not the real breath according to daojiao texts.


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## geezer

kempodisciple said:


> If your sifu told you not to worry about it, don't worry about it. He likely has a very specific reason for saying that (most likely either that you have not learned how to breathe properly for that form yet, or he does not want you to focus on that until you understand the rest of the form better), and his own style may contradict the advice your getting on an internet forum anyway.



Ha! You made a really good point. There's a reason why this form is called _Siu Lim Tao/ Siu Nim Tao_ or _Little Idea Form. _You aren't supposed to think too much. The student who tries to embrace a "big idea" and learn everything at once will miss the point. The student that patiently focuses on the task at hand, the "little idea", and trains hard will, in time, gain deep understanding!


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## JPinAZ

kempodisciple said:


> If your sifu told you not to worry about it, don't worry about it. He likely has a very specific reason for saying that (most likely either that you have not learned how to breathe properly for that form yet, or he does not want you to focus on that until you understand the rest of the form better), and his own style may contradict the advice your getting on an internet forum anyway.



Was just about to type a very similar response!!

To OP - it's ok to test what your sifu gives you and prove things for yourself. But if you don't 'believe' what he tells you, why are you training with him?


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## Nanuqcz

JPinAZ said:


> ... if you don't 'believe' what he tells you, why are you training with him?



I always beleaved everything he said, excluding this one thing about Siu Lim Tao breathing ;-)


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Nanuqcz said:


> I always beleaved everything he said, excluding this one thing about Siu Lim Tao breathing ;-)


If you believe everything else, why would you doubt him now?


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## Nanuqcz

kempodisciple said:


> If you believe everything else, why would you doubt him now?



Because I read on the Internet something else that he said, so I just wanted to be sure if I practice Siu Lim Tao right


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## Phobius

One tip before reading on this forum and on the net as a whole. Dont trust anything you read here. Or anyone you read it from.

Including me.... which means you should not trust what I just wrote.... conundrum (sp?)

EDIT: And dont worry, you will breath correctly in time. Doubt many people train an extended amount of time and don't pick up the correct way of doing things.

Just continue training with patience and it will come to you with time, the more you focus on one part the more you miss another and while trying to make everything perfect you just take longer time to perfect things.

Not sure this helps for you but for me, being a perfectionist, I have always had to try and do it the kung fu way. Every day I try to improve something from the previous day. Eventually I will become very good and when I am good enough I realize that I can never be perfect. Then I can just relax and continue improving something every day.


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## mograph

geezer said:


> Lastly, it would be impossible to attempt to synchronize your breathing with the extension and contraction of your hand movements as is often done in disciplines like yoga or taijiquan, since the speed of our movements _varies_ so much.


Yep. Also, in taijiquan, motions aren't always "in, out." Some are "in, over, out." How would one breathe to synchronize for those? No ... as you wrote, we breathe normally, but deep, relaxed, from the belly.


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## Buka

Ah, the age old question, who to listen to, your Sifu, or guys on the internet?


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## JowGaWolf

Nanuqcz said:


> Hello,
> how should I breath in Siu Lim Tao form? Especially when to breath in, and when to breath out?
> 
> My Sifu said it is not important, when I asked him. But I don't beleave it. That's why I am asking you here.
> 
> Based on Qi Gong, I suppose this principles:
> 1) When my arms goes close to my body, I should breath in.
> 2) When my arms goes away from my body, I should breath out.
> 
> But I can't be sure it's true for every move in the form. Also in the form, there are many moves in which you can't apply these principies, because your arms doesn't go closer or away from your body (end of the 4th set, or 6th set), so these principles will not work here.
> 
> Thanks,
> Michal Mikolas
> (practicing Wing-Chun for about 7 months now)


I'm not sure why your sifu said it's not important unless he doesn't want you to focus on the breathing at the moment.  If it's something that you are just learning then he may just want you to get the movent into memory so that when it's time to focus on breathing you'll be able to focus 100% on that instead of the movement.


This is what I tell students
Try breathing in when throwing a punch and then all will become clear.  My experiences is that our bodies know better than we do of when is the right time to breath. With Qigong you'll need to understand what you are doing in your form in order to understand how to breath properly.  Sometimes an outward motion isn't a strike so you don't need to breath out, sometimes an outward motion is a transition, which in that case you can breath in. Sometimes the movements are strikes that follow right after each other which in that case you may need to pause to inhale before going into the next strike.  Sometimes 2 strikes require a longer exhale instead of a shorter one for each strike.  Every strike doesn't require the same pattern of breathing.

90% of the time you can figure it out simply because one way feels natural and the other way feels like you are fighting with yourself, similar to like breathing in when punching


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## mograph

Buka said:


> Ah, the age old question, who to listen to, your Sifu, or guys on the internet?


Exactly.


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## Pat M

Always remember when you first learn to walk up steps, it's all about putting one foot in front of the other and hanging onto the hand rail! 

After a time you will walk faster, even run. Perhaps eventually you will completely let go and tap dance on the way up.

Don't be in a hurry to get up the stairs.


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## Marnetmar

Breathing should be relaxed and from the diaphragm as far as I'm concerned.

I don't really like the idea of treating WC like Chi Kung, or even as an internal art*. WC might be "internal" in the sense that it relies on structure and leverage for power generation but it's certainly not internal in the same way that Chi Kung or Tai Chi is internal.

Nothing against Chi Kung by the way, since I practice a little Pal Dan Gum. But if you want to to Chi Kung, do Chi Kung. WC training is not the place to get mystical IMO.

_*Yip Man WC, anyway. Branches like Pan Nam and Pao Fa Lien have more internal approaches AFAIK_


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## Kung Fu Wang

geezer said:


> often too slowly to synchronize with your breathing, ...


When that happen, you (general YOU) should speed up your move. This is why I'm strongly against the slow training for the sake of "slow". Your speed should be decided by your body move and not by your intention. If you breath fast, you should move fast. If you breath slow, you should move slow. You breathing should decide the speed of your body move. It should not be the other way around. IMO, to coordinate multiple breathing for any single slow move will make no sense.



geezer said:


> sometimes using one breath for a fast three-shot combination,


Agree! You can use one exhale for many punches. You exhale 1/n of your lung capacity for each punch that you throw where n can be 1, 2, ... or 7, 8. Of course if you just train WC for health, you may breath any way that you prefer. But if you train WC for fighting, your body move should coordinate with your breathing.


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## mograph

How would synchronizing your breathing apply to circular movements?


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## JowGaWolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you breath fast, you should move fast. If you breath slow, you should move slow. You breathing should decide the speed of your body move. It should not be the other way around.


 This is how I was taught as well.



mograph said:


> How would synchronizing your breathing apply to circular movements?


It works similar to what has been described already with a few exceptions.  I know there is one combination where I inhale on a strike, but the strike isn't the same as a punch, it's more like a swinging fist.  So in this specific combination I'll exhale on the downward swing and inhale on part of the upward swing, while exhaling on the follow upward swing.  The punch is similar to the big swinging punches you see here. at 2:28 mark


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## geezer

JowGaWolf said:


> This is how I was taught as well. ....It works similar to what has been described already with *a few exceptions.*



I would have to say that the _saam pai fut_ sequence in Wing Chun's_ Siu Nin Tau _form (the form referenced by the OP) would be one of these _exceptions _you mentioned. The movements are done _very_ slowly, ...at advanced levels, each movement in that segment can easily take over a minute. I've heard it said that Grandmaster Ip would sometimes  spend 15 minutes or more just performing the extension of the tan-sau. Hard enough to do that. But really hard to do that in one breath!


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## Kung Fu Wang

geezer said:


> I've heard it said that Grandmaster Ip would sometimes  spend 15 minutes or more just performing the extension of the tan-sau.


When Gungli system guys train their "功力架(Gungli Jia)", they would hold their posture for "as long as the can". They use it to build up strength, endurance, and body structure. Does WC slow training also try to achieve the same goal?


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## JowGaWolf

geezer said:


> I would have to say that the _saam pai fut_ sequence in Wing Chun's_ Siu Nin Tau _form (the form referenced by the OP) would be one of these _exceptions _you mentioned. The movements are done _very_ slowly, ...at advanced levels, each movement in that segment can easily take over a minute. I've heard it said that Grandmaster Ip would sometimes  spend 15 minutes or more just performing the extension of the tan-sau. Hard enough to do that. But really hard to do that in one breath!


Sounds like he was meditating lol.   What's the purpose of him doing it that slowly? Did anyone ever say why?


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## geezer

JowGaWolf said:


> Sounds like he was meditating lol.   What's the purpose of him doing it that slowly? Did anyone ever say why?



Some say it is to refine structure and energy (like what John "Kung Fu" Wang mentioned), that it is a form of chi-gung, a form of meditation, and the snarkier types reference Grandmaster Yip's opium habit.


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## guy b.

JowGaWolf said:


> Sounds like he was meditating lol.   What's the purpose of him doing it that slowly? Did anyone ever say why?



It is training the elbow. Doing it slow strengthens the musculature and prevents cheating.


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## KPM

JowGaWolf said:


> Sounds like he was meditating lol.   What's the purpose of him doing it that slowly? Did anyone ever say why?



I think it was meditating.  "Mindfulness" meditation can be applied to almost anything....walking, sitting, counting breaths, or doing the Saam Bai Fut section of the SLT form.  By focusing on a single thing...especially a movement done very slowly....one's mind begins to settle and clear.  Moving this slowly has to be very relaxed.  It is not strengthening muscles, it is not worrying about elbow position...it is a calming and "settling" exercise.  It is a very basic Buddhist meditation technique.   It is only "internal Chi Gung" in the sense that relaxing and calming the mind and letting it "settle" naturally encourages good Chi flow.  Following the motion of the very slow movement of the hand out in Fook Sau and back in Wu Sau is much the same as sitting in Zazen and counting the breaths.  It is simply something to focus on to quiet the thoughts.


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## geezer

Notice the tan-sau position!
http://www.phrases.org.uk/images/pipe-dream.jpg


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## guy b.

KPM said:


> Following the motion of the very slow movement of the hand out in Fook Sau and back in Wu Sau is much the same as sitting in Zazen and counting the breaths.



Then why not just sit in a pose and count the breaths?

Do you really think that the first section of SNT has no purpose other than meditation?


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## Phobius

guy b. said:


> Then why not just sit in a pose and count the breaths?
> 
> Do you really think that the first section of SNT has no purpose other than meditation?



I dont think he said that, think he was referring to spending 15 minutes doing extension of tan sau. A theory of KPM was that it had to be meditative purposes.

We are not as standard doing that extension for 15 minutes, most of us would not have that capability. So this is not a discussion on purpose since if it was most of us would have failed that purpose.


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## Tony Dismukes

Buka said:


> Ah, the age old question, who to listen to, your Sifu, or guys on the internet?


Well, duh, us guys on the internet of course. After all, the training and testing we go through before we're allowed to post anything online is pretty rigorous.


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## Tony Dismukes

geezer said:


> ...and the snarkier types reference Grandmaster Yip's opium habit.



Like, wow man. Like, did you ever really _look_ at your tan sau?


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## mograph

Tony Dismukes said:


> Well, duh, us guys on the internet of course. After all, the training and testing we go through before we're allowed to post anything online is pretty rigorous.


We have our own peer review process, too.


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## KPM

guy b. said:


> Then why not just sit in a pose and count the breaths?
> 
> Do you really think that the first section of SNT has no purpose other than meditation?



I didn't say that.  Obviously is it going to reinforce good positioning of the arm and flow of technique.  But I do not see its primary purpose being training the elbow, or strengthening any muscles.  There should  be very little tension involved.  Therefore it wouldn't strengthen any muscles. Going this slowly you are also not specifically thinking about any elbow position or anything else.  The advantage of doing the mediation this way rather than sitting is that is does reinforce Wing Chun technique because you are standing in the YGKYM and you are using Wing Chun.  But in my opinion, it is not primarily about trying to work on your Wing Chun technique.  Doing it this slowly is primarily a meditation technique.


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## guy b.

KPM said:


> I do not see its primary purpose being training the elbow, or strengthening any muscles. There should be very little tension involved. Therefore it wouldn't strengthen any muscles.



If the elbow is held in the correct position (an unnatural one) then muscles must be involved in keeping it there. If the arm is moving, however slowly, then muscles are moving it. Therefore the first section of SNT trains the musculature, as well as joint and tendon flexibility, in functioning from a position which is not natural for human beings. It is done slowly and repeated a lot because of the unnatural nature of the position, and the need to train the body for it in a thorough and repeated way.



> Going this slowly you are also not specifically thinking about any elbow position or anything else.



I would disagree. During this section of SNT it is important to think of the elbow all of the time, because training the elbow is the end goal. I don't think that meditation is as important as the elbow in VT.


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## Phobius

guy b. said:


> If the elbow is held in the correct position (an unnatural one) then muscles must be involved in keeping it there. If the arm is moving, however slowly, then muscles are moving it. Therefore the first section of SNT trains the musculature, as well as joint and tendon flexibility, in functioning from a position which is not natural for human beings. It is done slowly and repeated a lot because of the unnatural nature of the position, and the need to train the body for it in a thorough and repeated way.
> 
> 
> 
> I would disagree. During this section of SNT it is important to think of the elbow all of the time, because training the elbow is the end goal. I don't think that meditation is as important as the elbow in VT.



You do know we were talking about why Ip Man spent 15 minutes doing a single extension of taan sau?

I personally doubt Ip Man felt the need to train his muscles and joints, and yet again he was not a young man at this point in time. Anyways I just felt the need to highlight it before discussion gets out of hand. Might be it is the main purpose of VT SNT, but was it the purpose of Ip Man doing it in such a slow pace? Or can he be considered to already achieved proper training with such needs and instead was after something else?

Question is what... and the question may be interesting. Or we are just reading too much into nothing.

Anyways this is off-topic in two aspects, it is off-topic since it does not relate to breathing, and two it is off-topic because your comment refers to lineages and not exact reason why Ip Man spent 15 minutes on his single movement. Which in itself was off-topic. So double off-topic. Making this post of mine triple-off-topic.


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## guy b.

Even YM needs to constantly train the positions, or the ability degrades, because moving in this way is unnatural.

KPM is not talking only in specific terms about YM in particular, but also in general terms about the first section of SNT. But specific or general, the point still applies.

I am not talking in a lineage specific way. YM's system was VT


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## Phobius

EDIT: Removed a bunch of text saying bla bla.

Truth is I just don't care anymore. Guy_b you want to fight with KPM, go ahead and be my guest. I think this topic has already been covered so I might as well ignore the thread.


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## wckf92

guy b. said:


> Even YM needs to constantly train the positions, or the ability degrades



I can see what your trying to say here Guy b. But, maybe (for Yip Man) he had already ingrained his WC (VT) by this stage in his life.

I learned to ride a bike when I was a kid...my ability to ride a bike has not degraded since then...


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## Pat M

This slow meditative training is something I have trained to some degree. The focus was not muscular or elbow position.

The idea was connection of emotion movement and the flow of the earth. (Before dawn works well) 

Considering the OP breathing is slow and steady in through the nose out through the mouth.

Why IM practiced in this way is impossible to know however I find it very interesting.


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## KPM

guy b. said:


> KPM is not talking only in specific terms about YM in particular, but also in general terms about the first section of SNT. But specific or general, the point still applies.
> 
> I am not talking in a lineage specific way. YM's system was VT



I don't know what thread you were reading, but I thought we were specifically addressing the question of why Ip Man spent up to an hour simply doing the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form.  There are far better ways to strengthen muscles and reinforce technique than doing the Saam Bai Fut section at such an agonizingly slow pace.   And correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you point out in the past that when you write "VT" you actually mean "WSLVT"?   Are you now back to being inconsistent?


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## geezer

KPM said:


> ....when you write "VT" you actually mean "WSLVT"?   Are you now back to being *inconsistent?*



You say that like it's a bad thing. Heck, inconsistency is about the only thing I'm consistent about.

Anyway, let's not get back into bickering. I'm sure Guy can clarify what he means. Obviously he and his lineage are highly focused on training a particular elbow position.

The thread, however was about breathing in SNT. I only brought up the slow pace of the _saam pai fut_ section for the benefit of non-WC people like _Jow Ga_ to illustrate why we don't link each breath to a movement as some other martial arts do. Beyond that, it goes without saying that different lineages will vary greatly in how they perform and understand this form.


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## guy b.

KPM said:


> I thought we were specifically addressing the question of why Ip Man spent up to an hour simply doing the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form



As previously mentioned, he was training his elbow position.



KPM said:


> better ways to strengthen muscles and reinforce technique than doing the Saam Bai Fut section at such an agonizingly slow pace



Slow pace is essential when training to gain control of the correct musculature without waking the wrong musculature. It is essential for this process. There is no better way to do this than thinking correctly and moving very slowly.


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## KPM

guy b. said:


> Slow pace is essential when training to gain control of the correct musculature without waking the wrong musculature. It is essential for this process. There is no better way to do this than thinking correctly and moving very slowly.



So, are you saying you routinely practice your SNT form with taking an hour or more for just the Saam Bai Fut section?


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## Kung Fu Wang

guy b. said:


> Slow pace is essential when training to gain control of the correct musculature without waking the wrong musculature. It is essential for this process. There is no better way to do this than thinking correctly and moving very slowly.


The concern is, there are so many MA skills that's worthwhile to train. Is this the best place to put training time into?


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## guy b.

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The concern is, there are so many MA skills that's worthwhile to train. Is this the best place to put training time into?



For VT elbow is essential. We train elbow all day


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## guy b.

KPM said:


> So, are you saying you routinely practice your SNT form with taking an hour or more for just the Saam Bai Fut section?



I train my elbow in the variety of ways contained in the system, including the slow repetition of fook during the first section of SNT. In fact I repeat the process a lot more than three times, because it is so very important.


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## guy b.

wckf92 said:


> I learned to ride a bike when I was a kid...my ability to ride a bike has not degraded since then...



Riding a bike is much easier than elbow control in VT. Elbow is difficult and ability declines rapidly if you stop doing it.


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## wckf92

guy b. said:


> Slow pace is essential when training to gain control of the correct musculature without waking the wrong musculature.



What about Olympic sprinters? Do they sprint in slow motion? Since they train explosively/plyometrically...are they developing incorrect musculature?


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## mograph

wckf92 said:


> What about Olympic sprinters? Do they sprint in slow motion? Since they train explosively/plyometrically...are they developing incorrect musculature?


Yeah! What about trampoline artists? High divers? 

... or swimmers, maybe? Read Eric's first comment (#3) below:
McGinnis: 5 Training Tips For Sprinters

Or here:
Swim Slower To Go Faster

The point of slow training is to improve technique. It's not the entire training, just a valuable component.


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## KPM

guy b. said:


> I train my elbow in the variety of ways contained in the system, including the slow repetition of fook during the first section of SNT. In fact I repeat the process a lot more than three times, because it is so very important.



You didn't answer my question.


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## Kung Fu Wang

guy b. said:


> For VT elbow is essential. We train elbow all day


Assume that slow training can help beginner to have the correct body movement. 

Beginner training stage - slow training
Advance training stage - fast training

For Ip Man during his old age, he still did his slow training, it just doesn't make sense.


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## LFJ

Yip Man wasn't a Buddhist and didn't believe in Qigong.


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## LFJ

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Assume that slow training can help beginner to have the correct body movement.
> 
> Beginner training stage - slow training
> Advance training stage - fast training
> 
> For Ip Man during his old age, he still did his slow training, it just doesn't make sense.



The system is taught linearly, giving the illusion of beginner to advanced stages, but really it is all pieces to a puzzle. Once you have the big picture you continue to use each piece. There are no throwaway parts.


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## dudewingchun

LFJ said:


> The system is taught linearly, giving the illusion of beginner to advanced stages, but really it is all pieces to a puzzle. Once you have the big picture you continue to use each piece. There are no throwaway parts.



A bit off-topic but do you actually do PB VT ? Just wandering cause i was on KFM and saw a post of yours stating that you were not from PBVT, but on this forum you post as if you are quite knowledgeable in it.


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## LFJ

I've always been speaking from my own perspective. If it aligns with others it's because we train the same system. The thinking should be clear, one and the same.


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## KPM

LFJ said:


> Yip Man wasn't a Buddhist and didn't believe in Qigong.



You don't have to be Buddhist or believe in Qigong to do a simple mindfulness meditation.  I learned the whole concept of settling the mind as part of SNT right from the start in my initial training in Wing Chun.  Of course, we didn't do the SNT as slowly as we have been talking about Ip Man doing it!


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## LFJ

I don't know what your training purposes are, but we're talking about a guy who enjoyed smoking opium and fighting, not doing Buddhist meditations as a non-Buddhist or developing mystical energy he didn't believe in. SNT is a part of VT _fight training_.


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## KPM

LFJ said:


> I don't know what your training purposes are, but we're talking about a guy who enjoyed smoking opium and fighting, not doing Buddhist meditations as a non-Buddhist or developing mystical energy he didn't believe in. SNT is a part of VT _fight training_.



Neither of us were there and neither of us know Ip Man's true motivations.   I am saying anyone that took up to an hour to do just the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form....going at such an agonizingly slow pace....was likely doing it as a form of meditation.  You are saying he was likely doing it as a form of _fight training_.  We'll let other people form their own opinions as to which they think is the most plausible.


----------



## guy b.

KPM said:


> You didn't answer my question.



I did answer, here:



> I train my elbow in the variety of ways contained in the system


----------



## guy b.

mograph said:


> Yeah! What about trampoline artists? High divers?
> 
> ... or swimmers, maybe? Read Eric's first comment (#3) below:
> McGinnis: 5 Training Tips For Sprinters
> 
> Or here:
> Swim Slower To Go Faster
> 
> The point of slow training is to improve technique. It's not the entire training, just a valuable component.



I don't know much about training for swimming, but thanks for posting. Interesting.


----------



## guy b.

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Assume that slow training can help beginner to have the correct body movement.
> 
> Beginner training stage - slow training
> Advance training stage - fast training
> 
> For Ip Man during his old age, he still did his slow training, it just doesn't make sense.



Your assumption is too specific. Slow training is not something you grow out of.


----------



## guy b.

wckf92 said:


> What about Olympic sprinters? Do they sprint in slow motion? Since they train explosively/plyometrically...are they developing incorrect musculature?



I am referring to VT, not to sprinting. Refer to the post by Mograph if you would like to learn about the rationale for slow training in sports.


----------



## guy b.

KPM said:


> I am saying anyone that took up to an hour to do just the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form....going at such an agonizingly slow pace....was likely doing it as a form of meditation.  You are saying he was likely doing it as a form of _fight training_.  We'll let other people form their own opinions as to which they think is the most plausible.



Seems a rather clutching at straws kind of explanation, since there are good reasons for slow training which are well known in VT. Most likely YM was training that way for a reason contained within the system, rather than a completely unrelated one. Wouldn't you say?

I don't mind if anyone else would like to think he was meditating; the popularity of wrong opinions doesn't affect my own.


----------



## Phobius

guy b. said:


> I don't mind if anyone else would like to think he was meditating; the popularity of wrong opinions doesn't affect my own.



Noone is wrong in a matter where truth can not be discovered. You are just as much speculating as everyone else.

For me personally I would say this, doing SNT that long amount of time purely for training elbow. It seems rather illogical. Given age, experience and how his body already has adapted and due to his age will probably not adapt any further.

Second I do not agree that elbow training is needed to be continued that slow as you think, reason being that if you train this often which YM did. You would not need to spend hours for the purpose of maintaining a good elbow structure since it is already there. Just training will maintain such a structure.

If it does not, you are probably doing something very wrong and with a high risk of injuring yourself in the long term. Perhaps something to consider for yourself and your own future. After all we all have a goal to continue training what we do even when growing too old for our own minds to catch up.


----------



## LFJ

@Phobius 

Look into modern research on how the brain works, because both of your points are wrong.

One is never too old to learn VT, so long as they are fit for it, but it's not like learning to ride a bike either.


----------



## Danny T

You guys simple love to argue.
Ip Man was an amazing WC man.
Ip Man was also an opium addict. 
Ip Man did some things we have no real knowledge of.
For all we know Ip Man may simply have been in a opium induce stupor.


----------



## wckf92

guy b. said:


> I don't mind if anyone else would like to think he was meditating; the popularity of *wrong* opinions doesn't affect my own.


----------



## guy b.

Phobius said:


> Noone is wrong in a matter where truth can not be discovered. You are just as much speculating as everyone else.



Balance of probability means that some opinions are less speculation than others. Not "just as much"


----------



## guy b.

wckf92 said:


>



I am sorry it offends you that I am not a relativist


----------



## guy b.

So we have established that most on the forum train wing chun systems which do not contain good reasons for slow training, or for continuing such training beyond a beginner stage. That's ok with me. It should be ok with all of you too, since it is after all what you believe, and you must have reason for doing so. It is nothing to get annoyed about. We can all agree to disagree.


----------



## wckf92

guy b. said:


> I am sorry it offends you that I am not a relativist



Nope, doesn't offend me at all... just an typical (and anticipated) response is all...


----------



## guy b.

Phobius said:


> I do not agree that elbow training is needed to be continued that slow as you think, reason being that if you train this often which YM did. You would not need to spend hours for the purpose of maintaining a good elbow structure since it is already there. Just training will maintain such a structure.



While VT is not Tai Chi or Yiquan, both have similar slow movement training methodologies. It is more limited and specific in VT, more general and extensive in TC and YQ. People who are very good at Tai Chi and Yiquan continue slow movement training as long as they continue training, same as in VT. There is a specific reason for it. If you are interested in these systems you train it and continue to train it.


----------



## guy b.

wckf92 said:


> Nope, doesn't offend me at all... just an typical (and anticipated) response is all...



Then I am sorry for being predictably non-relativist. At least I made you smile.


----------



## Phobius

guy b. said:


> While VT is not Tai Chi or Yiquan, both have similar slow movement training methodologies. It is more limited and specific in VT, more general and extensive in TC and YQ. People who are very good at Tai Chi and Yiquan continue slow movement training as long as they continue training, same as in VT. There is a specific reason for it. If you are interested in these systems you train it and continue to train it.



So you agree that I am right?

Slow movement training is not on the table of discussion, the discussion was why it was done insanely slow by YM. You say the only reason or at least the only real reason for doing a slow movement is to train elbow structure. I am wondering how this can be your logical outcome given that A) elbow structure is already as good as it gets, B) once elbow structure exists, your time is better used to train other areas. At least rather than spending hours (!) doing SNT once.

Or you are saying the optimum way to train according to WSLVT is to be doing SNT for hours at an end? At least if assuming it is all for becoming a better fighter.

Assuming that the logical goal of training so slow by YM was a meditative state, would it then be more logical that YM with age would attempt to perform SNT even slower while maintaining a constant perfect form to achieve a higher meditative state and at some point unlock a deeper understanding of his own muscles and movements.

Or are you saying that he was not after stretching joints and adapting muscles to a good elbow structure but rather to improve it through meditating on how every muscle in his body moved each instant? In such case one could argue that you are both correct in that it could be meditation as well as elbow structure in one.

But to stretch your joints in order to maintain a good elbow structure, if you can´t after some time have a good elbow structure due to limitations in your joints.... you should NOT stretch those joints. It is more likely you injure yourself because your body may have other problems such as internal scars preventing you from doing the movement you seek.


----------



## Danny T

guy b. said:


> So we have established that most on the forum train wing chun systems which do not contain good reasons for slow training, or for continuing such training beyond a beginner stage.


Uh.. No.
But you certainly have your opinion.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

guy b. said:


> So we have established that most on the forum train wing chun systems which do not contain good reasons for slow training, or for continuing such training beyond a beginner stage.


I still remember the 1st chapter of my English text book:

"Book. This is a book. Chalk. This is a chalk. What do I do with my book? What do I do with my chalk?"

If you still need to review those English text when you are 70 years old, your English has some serious problem. It's normal to still open your college text book (such as "To be, or not to be...") when you are 70 years old. It's not normal to still open your elementary school text book (such as "This is a book.") when you are in your old age.


----------



## guy b.

Phobius said:


> So you agree that I am right?



Not sure how you would draw this conclusion



Phobius said:


> Slow movement training is not on the table of discussion, the discussion was why it was done insanely slow by YM. You say the only reason or at least the only real reason for doing a slow movement is to train elbow structure. I am wondering how this can be your logical outcome given that A) elbow structure is already as good as it gets, B) once elbow structure exists, your time is better used to train other areas. At least rather than spending hours (!) doing SNT once.



A) Elbow degrades rapidly if not trained properly and regularly. B) Same as A.



Phobius said:


> Or you are saying the optimum way to train according to WSLVT is to be doing SNT for hours at an end? At least if assuming it is all for becoming a better fighter.



Doing the first section of SNT slowly is certainly an essential part of VT



Phobius said:


> Assuming that the logical goal of training so slow by YM was a meditative state, would it then be more logical that YM with age would attempt to perform SNT even slower while maintaining a constant perfect form to achieve a higher meditative state and at some point unlock a deeper understanding of his own muscles and movements.



I don't know anything about meditation or whether "height of meditative state" is related to speed of physical action. I am guessing not, but am open to further enlightenment on this issue by experienced meditators.

VT doesn't contain meditation. Lots of people meditate without doing SNT. Overall meditation seems quite an unlikely explanation, given that the VT system emphasises slow movement during that section of SNT. Most likely YM was just practicing the system in the usual way.



Phobius said:


> Or are you saying that he was not after stretching joints and adapting muscles to a good elbow structure but rather to improve it through meditating on how every muscle in his body moved each instant?



No. Correct thought can help during 1st section SNT. But it isn't meditation. It is training.



Phobius said:


> But to stretch your joints in order to maintain a good elbow structure, if you can´t after some time have a good elbow structure due to limitations in your joints.... you should NOT stretch those joints. It is more likely you injure yourself because your body may have other problems such as internal scars preventing you from doing the movement you seek.



Ok


----------



## guy b.

Danny T said:


> Uh.. No.
> But you certainly have your opinion.



Given resistance to the idea so far I think "most" would be a fair assessment. Unless people just like arguing?

Note that I didn't say "all". If you agree with me then great.


----------



## guy b.

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you still need to review those English text when you are 70 years old, your English has some serious problem. It's normal to still open your college text book when you are 70 years old. It's not normal to still open your elementary school text book when you are in your old age.



SNT is not analogous to an elementary text in subject x. It is in the system for a reason, and meant to be trained continuously. Abandoning SNT because you have reached a higher level is a misunderstanding of its purpose, and of the system. It isn't about a progression to greater things. SNT still essential to everyone, no matter how good.


----------



## Phobius

guy b. said:


> SNT is not analogous to an elementary text in subject x. It is in the system for a reason, and meant to be trained continuously. Abandoning SNT because you have reached a higher level is a misunderstanding of its purpose, and of the system. It isn't about a progression to greater things. SNT still essential to everyone, no matter how good.



To clarify the facts:
*. Noone have said that doing SNT slow is bad, no matter your age or knowledge of WC.
*. Noone have said that SNT should ever be abandoned.
*. Noone has said SNT is analogous to elementary text in subject x. (It was said that if doing SNT was just rudimentary training, it is not a logical thing to focus on for a 70 year old master)

What people have said:
1. Doing SNT insanely slow, like so slow that weed will grow from between your fingers before you have finished your first movement is probably not because you need to stretch your joints. May be for meditative purposes.
2. Doing SNT insanely slow, such as spending more than an hour just finishing the first parts has to be done in order to keep good elbow structure. If not trained the elbow structure will vanish quickly.

My point is, I dont know if 1. or 2. is valid. I just dont believe in number 2 being logical, quite frankly it sounds way out there in terms of theories.

Also elbow structure should not be lost with time. Sure stretching needs to be maintained but trust me, you do not need to spend 15 minutes doing a single taan sau movement in order to get good elbow structure, little less to maintain said elbow structure. So extending the time to execute taan sau when the training would achieve same result in just a fraction of the time. I find your logic flawed.

If you can not maintain good elbow structure without doing taan sau movement in 15 minutes timeframe then it is my sincere belief that you are training incorrectly or have missunderstood some key elements in regards to your training. And I do not mean this to offend but to rather say you should be aware of the risks that might be present with your training in such a case.

EDIT: And to add, maintaining a pure 100% focus for 15 minutes straight is something I doubt any normal person will ever achieve without training meditation.


----------



## KPM

guy b. said:


> Unless people just like arguing?
> 
> .



You mean like you?


----------



## KPM

What we haven't mentioned, is that this whole story of Ip Man spending an hour on this section of the SNT may be completely bogus and not true at all.   It may simply be one of those "Sifu is amazing!" kind of stories.


----------



## guy b.

Phobius said:


> To clarify the facts:
> *. Noone have said that doing SNT slow is bad, no matter your age or knowledge of WC.
> *. Noone have said that SNT should ever be abandoned.



I haven't claimed that anyone said these things. Why are you bullet pointing these non events?



Phobius said:


> Noone has said SNT is analogous to elementary text in subject x. (It was said that if doing SNT was just rudimentary training, it is not a logical thing to focus on for a 70 year old master)



I believe that English is not your first language? Here is just such an analogy:



> If you still need to review those English text when you are 70 years old, your English has some serious problem. It's normal to still open your college text book when you are 70 years old. It's not normal to still open your elementary school text book when you are in your old age.






Phobius said:


> 2. Doing SNT insanely slow, such as spending more than an hour just finishing the first parts has to be done in order to keep good elbow structure. If not trained the elbow structure will vanish quickly.



It would probably be better if you quoted rather than paraphrasing.



Phobius said:


> elbow structure should not be lost with time. Sure stretching needs to be maintained but trust me, you do not need to spend 15 minutes doing a single taan sau movement in order to get good elbow structure, little less to maintain said elbow structure. So extending the time to execute taan sau when the training would achieve same result in just a fraction of the time.



I think you have some misconceptions about what is being trained during the slow section of SNT. Slow training and repetition is an integral part of the system.



Phobius said:


> If you can not maintain good elbow structure without doing taan sau movement in 15 minutes timeframe then it is my sincere belief that you are training incorrectly or have missunderstood some key elements in regards to your training. And I do not mean this to offend but to rather say you should be aware of the risks that might be present with your training in such a case.



I am sure Yip Man would be delighted to know your opinion on this issue. Thanks for your concern with my physical health. I am fine, thanks.


----------



## guy b.

KPM said:


> You mean like you?



People who like argument do it for the sake of it, i.e. not caring about the subject being discussed. I care about VT


----------



## Phobius

guy b. said:


> I believe that English is not your first language? Here is just such an analogy:



Let me clarify for you, he never said slow movements was equal to opening an elementary english textbook. He said that if a textbook only contained rudimentary training/information it was not normal to open such a book at age of 70. If however it was not rudimentary, such as a college textbook, then it would hold value.

So if what YM did was nothing more than rudimentary training, when moving slowly. That would not be a normal behavior, but if it was more of a college level behavior (non-rudimentary) it would be normal.

Nowhere was it said that moving slowly or even doing SNT was equal to a elementary school textbook. And no, like most people in the world English is not my first language. Hope still you can understand my text.




guy b. said:


> It would probably be better if you quoted rather than paraphrasing.



What part was incorrect with your own statements? This is what I picked up from your text. If anything of it was incorrect feel free to clarify. Or to drop the subject, the later probably suits me better since this whole discussion is as relevant as watching paint dry.



guy b. said:


> I think you have some misconceptions about what is being trained during the slow section of SNT. Slow training and repetition is an integral part of the system.



I think you have some misconceptions as to what is being discussed, either that or you are just changing the content to suit a need of yours to win some debate you have. Noone has said anything about slow training being wrong. It has never been a debate or even argued with anyone.


----------



## dudewingchun

guy b. said:


> Then I am sorry for being predictably non-relativist. At least I made you smile.



What do you mean exactly when you say elbow skill degrades rapidly ? in what way ? I am curious to know.


----------



## LFJ

There's a simple scientific explanation for it all, proven by modern research on how the brain works. But people here don't share the same VT elbow ideas or fighting strategies, so it may be irrelevant to them. 

Also, I sense there would be resistance to the established science anyway, because acknowledging it would also be an admission to not understanding the extreme basics of YMVT, and we know egos wouldn't allow that.

If I had no explanation within the training method related to _fighting_ for why Yip Man would have trained the very first section of the very first form this way, and had to suggest completely unrelated things like Buddhist meditation or Qigong, even though Yip Man was not a Buddhist or believer in Qigong, that would be a huge red flag that I don't understand YMVT, and I'd definitely be looking elsewhere to understand the actual fight training of it.


----------



## dudewingchun

LFJ said:


> There's a simple scientific explanation for it all, proven by modern research on how the brain works. But people here don't share the same VT elbow ideas or fighting strategies, so it may be irrelevant to them.
> 
> Also, I sense there would be resistance to the established science anyway, because acknowledging it would also be an admission to not understanding the extreme basics of YMVT, and we know egos wouldn't allow that.
> 
> If I had no explanation within the training method related to _fighting_ for why Yip Man would have trained the very first section of the very first form this way, and had to suggest completely unrelated things like Buddhist meditation or Qigong, even though Yip Man was not a Buddhist or believer in Qigong, that would be a huge red flag that I don't understand YMVT, and I'd definitely be looking elsewhere to understand the actual fight training of it.



Fair enough. 

What do you think about Chu Shong Tin's interpretation of Siu nim tao then ?


----------



## LFJ

dudewingchun said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> What do you think about Chu Shong Tin's interpretation of Siu nim tao then ?



Well, according to this article of his, he says Yip Man told him SNT is about "_establishing an idea in the mind_". 

But he wasn't told what the idea was and went on practicing and come up with his own idea.

Pretty much confirms again that Yip Man didn't really teach the details of the system to many people, especially not to those uninterested in fighting.

If people find other purposes for training and enjoy what they do, that's fine, I guess.


----------



## KPM

_There's a simple scientific explanation for it all, proven by modern research on how the brain works. But people here don't share the same VT elbow ideas or fighting strategies, so it may be irrelevant to them. _

---Well let's hear it then!   What modern research says that something as simple as elbow position in a Wing Chun technique needs to be trained by doing the technique excruciatingly slow over with 15 minutes devoted to a single simple motion.  I know of no modern sport that trains that way.  So if you got some research to show that, I would love to see it!


_Also, I sense there would be resistance to the established science anyway, because acknowledging it would also be an admission to not understanding the extreme basics of YMVT, and we know egos wouldn't allow that._

---And some people's egos seem to be incapable of admitting that not EVERYTHING in Wing Chun is all about elbow positioning and punching.


_If I had no explanation within the training method related to fighting for why Yip Man would have trained the very first section of the very first form this way, and had to suggest completely unrelated things like Buddhist meditation or Qigong, even though Yip Man was not a Buddhist or believer in Qigong, that would be a huge red flag that I don't understand YMVT, and I'd definitely be looking elsewhere to understand the actual fight training of it._

---I think that if I thought my entire system of Wing Chun was devoted simply to training an elbow position and how to punch, that I would be looking for a more efficient martial art.   Because it doesn't take the entire system of Wing Chun to train that!   I think that if I was practicing a martial art that care nothing about helping me develop myself mentally and spiritually/morally and was only concerned with fighting....I would be looking for another martial art.


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> ---Well let's hear it then!   What modern research says that something as simple as elbow position in a Wing Chun technique needs to be trained by doing the technique excruciatingly slow over with 15 minutes devoted to a single simple motion.



"Elbow position in a Wing Chun technique" was not my assertion.



> ---And some people's egos seem to be incapable of admitting that not EVERYTHING in Wing Chun is all about elbow positioning and punching.



Also not my assertion.



> I think that if I was practicing a martial art that care nothing about helping me develop myself mentally and spiritually/morally and was only concerned with fighting....I would be looking for another martial art.



VT is a secular martial art. Maybe it's not for you then. That's fine. I'm personally non-religious and don't need a martial art to base my morality on, so it's all right for me.


----------



## guy b.

LFJ said:


> "Elbow position in a Wing Chun technique" was not my assertion.



The barrage of bad paraphrasing continues.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

I assume the "elbow position" is to train the proper arm moving path that "all straight punches come out of your mouth". There are some trade off there.

PRO - If you always punch from the center of your chest, you can "protect your center from inside out".
CON - you will need to move your hand from the side of your body to the center of your body before you punch out. This will require extra time.

Should you move your elbow to the center of your chest before you punch out, or can you just punch out from the side of your body, your elbow then merge into your center line? Instead of making a 90 degree sharp angle, may be a smooth curve is even better.

Since it has both PRO and CON, it should not be treated as unbend-able rule. Especially when you start to develop your hook (or hay-maker), this rule won't apply and you have to train how to "protect your center from outside in".


----------



## dudewingchun

Does anyone know the reasoning of the first section Siu nim tao regarding the elbow for any non Ip Man lineages ? 

A bit unrelated I remember in the book Ip man portrait of a kung fu master there is a chapter regarding how his name is spelt and they are quite adamant that it is Ip man not Yip. Ip ching is one of the authors.


----------



## KPM

dudewingchun said:


> Does anyone know the reasoning of the first section Siu nim tao regarding the elbow for any non Ip Man lineages ?
> .



Pin Sun WCK does not have the SNT form.   But some of the individual sets are break-outs from the original SNT form of Leung Jan.  One of them includes the Saam Bai Fut sequence.  We do it to train to reinforce elbow position, but I was never taught to do it at the agonizingly slow pace we have been saying that Ip Man may have used.  We do it slowly, but reasonably slow, and it may be repeated more than three times.  So I don't disagree with what Guy and LFJ have been saying in general.  What I disagree with is the idea that taking an hour just to do the Saam Bai Fut sequence is necessary for training elbow position.   And I'll point out that neither Guy or LFJ have stated that they themselves actually do this!  Guy kind of skirted answering this direct question by saying he trains his elbow position in multiple ways.  But he didn't actually say "yes" that he trains it this way....meaning taking an hour just to do the Saam Bai Fut sequence of the SNT form.


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> We do it to train to reinforce elbow position,



We don't train for the sake of an elbow position. This was the context in which WSL was speaking when he said not to be a slave to the system. Many don't see beyond the elbow training. Ironically, many misquote him on this too because they don't know what he was talking about.


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> We don't train for the sake of an elbow position. This was the context in which WSL was speaking when he said not to be a slave to the system. Many don't see beyond the elbow training. Ironically, many misquote him on this too because they don't know what he was talking about.


 
????  Way back in post #32 of this thread Guy wrote:

*It is training the elbow. Doing it slow strengthens the musculature and prevents cheating.*


----------



## dudewingchun

KPM said:


> Pin Sun WCK does not have the SNT form.   But some of the individual sets are break-outs from the original SNT form of Leung Jan.  One of them includes the Saam Bai Fut sequence.  We do it to train to reinforce elbow position, but I was never taught to do it at the agonizingly slow pace we have been saying that Ip Man may have used.  We do it slowly, but reasonably slow, and it may be repeated more than three times.  So I don't disagree with what Guy and LFJ have been saying in general.  What I disagree with is the idea that taking an hour just to do the Saam Bai Fut sequence is necessary for training elbow position.   And I'll point out that neither Guy or LFJ have stated that they themselves actually do this!  Guy kind of skirted answering this direct question by saying he trains his elbow position in multiple ways.  But he didn't actually say "yes" that he trains it this way....meaning taking an hour just to do the Saam Bai Fut sequence of the SNT form.



Interesting. 

I have always heard and been told that part is for qi gong and elbow training.


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> ????  Way back in post #32 of this thread Guy wrote:
> 
> *It is training the elbow. Doing it slow strengthens the musculature and prevents cheating.*



Yes? We train the elbow, but not for the sake of an elbow position.

Gotta have the big picture and the end goal of fighting in mind. It's the "idea" YM told CST the form was establishing in the mind.


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> Yes? We train the elbow, but not for the sake of an elbow position.
> 
> Gotta have the big picture and the end goal of fighting in mind. It's the "idea" YM told CST the form was establishing in the mind.



Obviously the "position" is in motion....an elbow line.  We all know that.  Now you are just talking semantics.  No wonder everything turns into an argument with you guys!


----------



## LFJ

What position are you talking about then?


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> What position are you talking about then?



The position within the elbow line.  Is there anyone that has done Wing Chun for more than a few classes that doesn't understand the idea of the elbow line being trained in the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form?  Do I really need to explain that?  What have you been talking about??


----------



## LFJ

You said you do it to reinforce elbow position. I'm not sure what that means to you in your lineage. What for?


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> You said you do it to reinforce elbow position. I'm not sure what that means to you in your lineage. What for?



You didn't answer my question.  Again, the last few exchanges show why it is so hard to carry out any kind of conversation with either you or Guy.  You both seem to have the same posting habits.

And just to be clear,  I had asked:   _What have you been talking about??   _to clarify what you have been referring to if not the path or line that the elbow is traveling along during the Saam Bai Fut section.  If you actually answer that, we might understand where you are coming from.  But you didn't answer it, you just came back with another question.


----------



## KPM

And I'll ask another question I've asked already that didn't really get an answer.   Do you....Guy and LFJ....train the SNT form by taking up to an hour just to do the Saam Bai Fut section alone....as Ip Man is rumored to have done?  "I train my elbow in multiple ways" is not really an answer to that question.   A simple "yes" or "no" will do.  Thanks!


----------



## LFJ

I was talking about fighting strategy. We work the elbow a certain way in training, but as I said, not for the sake of an elbow position. 
_
Taan_ and _fuk_ aren't application ideas to me, as you should know. We must be able to use the elbow freely as needed. Otherwise we are a slave to the system. 

So I'm not sure what you mean by "to reinforce elbow position" or what your end goal is. You seem to take a rather literal approach to your form, fighting from YJKYM.

I rarely go through SNT as a complete set. I spend time training sections. I don't watch the clock or set a timer, but a considerable amount of time is spent on it when that is the focus in solo training. For the first section, slower is better, because that means more time and focus strengthening an infrequently used and unnatural behavior. Two minutes is not enough.


----------



## KPM

_[I was talking about fighting strategy. We work the elbow a certain way in training, but as I said, not for the sake of an elbow position._

---So exactly what is this mysterious elbow fighting strategy and how does it relate to the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form?  You still haven't explained that.




_So I'm not sure what you mean by "to reinforce elbow position" or what your end goal is. You seem to take a rather literal approach to your form, fighting from YJKYM._

---Again, it was Guy that stated:   *It is training the elbow. Doing it slow strengthens the musculature and prevents cheating.    *Strengthen the muscles for what, if not to maintain a position along the moving line?  Prevents cheating of what, other than proper placement or position of the elbow?  You two seem to be arguing something that is not at all clear to me, and likely the majority of people following this thread.



_ I don't watch the clock or set a timer,_

---So then it sounds like your answer is "No, I do not train the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form alone for up to an hour."   Again, all I asked for was a simply "yes" or "no" answer.   How hard is that?


----------



## yak sao

LFJ said:


> I rarely go through SNT as a complete set. I spend time training sections.



I think this is how the forms were designed to be done. I practice the form as a whole, then take out certain components or sections and drill them for a while, then I again go through the form.
To me the goal is not to get good at the form but to learn what the form contains.


----------



## guy b.

KPM said:


> Guy kind of skirted answering this direct question by saying he trains his elbow position in multiple ways. But he didn't actually say "yes" that he trains it this way....meaning taking an hour just to do the Saam Bai Fut sequence of the SNT form.



I do the 1st section of SNT as slowly as is beneficial for me. This varies with degree of training and is personal. Repetition is necessary. Slowing the motion as much as feasible is necessary.

It is training for the body for VT, utilising physical and mental methods, it isn't training elbow lines, fixed positions, etc



KPM said:


> So then it sounds like your answer is "No, I do not train the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form alone for up to an hour." Again, all I asked for was a simply "yes" or "no" answer. How hard is that?



It is a progressive training excercise which is fully integrated into the rest of the system and which evolves with the particular practitioner. The question doesn't make much sense in this context. Would it be fair to say that you don't seem to have a particularly systemic approach to wing chun? You often seem to want yes no anwers where it isn't appropriate.


----------



## KPM

_I do the 1st section of SNT as slowly as is beneficial for me. This varies with degree of training and is personal. Repetition is necessary. Slowing the motion as much as feasible is necessary._


---So apparently your answer is also "No, I do not take up to an hour to do the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form"......??



_It is training for the body for VT, utilising physical and mental methods, it isn't training elbow lines, fixed positions, etc_

---What "physical methods" are you talking about if not maintaining the elbow consistently along the pathway trained by the Saam Bai Fut section of the form?



_Would it be fair to say that you don't seem to have a particularly systemic approach to wing chun? You often seem to want yes no anwers where it isn't appropriate._

---No, not at all fair.  How would you draw that conclusion from me simply asking if you actually train the way Ip Man is rumored to have train for the reasons you believe he trained that way?  And how would my question be inappropriate?  Seems like a pretty straight-forward and easily answered question to me!  Why do you and LFJ have such trouble answering such a simple question?   Either you believe that Ip Man felt it necessary to spend up to an hour doing the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form simply because this elbow training is such a fragile and perishable  skill or not.  Either you also train like Ip Man because you believe it is so important or not.   Or are you suggesting that it was important for a Master like Ip Man with more than 50 years experience practicing Wing Chun in order to maintain this elbow skill, but its not important for you??   But Ok, if you don't like simple "yes" or "no" quesions.....Guy...LFJ.....how often in your training do you actually spend up to an hour on just the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form?


----------



## KPM

yak sao said:


> I think this is how the forms were designed to be done. I practice the form as a whole, then take out certain components or sections and drill them for a while, then I again go through the form.
> To me the goal is not to get good at the form but to learn what the form contains.



Yes! That is essentially the approach of Pin Sun WCK.  Each of the short sets are trained independently to really drill them in and get them down well.  But then you can go back and string them together back to back like a more traditional "form."   For instance....the section of the SNT form where you do a Pak Sau, Tan Sau, Palm strike....is one of the basic short sets in Pin Sun that we practice repeatedly on its own....practice in a 2 man drill....and practice on the dummy.  Later on the set is put together with some of the other short sets to practice something that is similar to the Ip Man SNT form.  But we see the short sets as the main part of the curriculum, not the longer combined "form."


----------



## guy b.

KPM said:


> apparently your answer is also "No



That wasn't my answer



KPM said:


> What "physical methods" are you talking about



Use of correct musculature, avoidance of use of incorrect musculature



KPM said:


> how would my question be inappropriate?



Lack of context, avoidance of information already provided, a strong desire to fight over nothing. 



KPM said:


> you believe that Ip Man felt it necessary to spend up to an hour doing the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form



Yes



KPM said:


> you also train like Ip Man



Yes



KPM said:


> it was important for a Master like Ip Man with more than 50 years experience



Yes


----------



## KPM

guy b. said:


> That wasn't my answer
> 
> 
> 
> Use of correct musculature, avoidance of use of incorrect musculature
> 
> 
> 
> Lack of context, avoidance of information already provided, a strong desire to fight over nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> Yes



And yet, you've still managed to avoid directly answering the question.   Ok.  I give up.  You guys are almost impossible to have any kind of real conversation with.


----------



## guy b.

KPM said:


> And yet, you've still managed to avoid directly answering the question.   Ok.  I give up.  You guys are almost impossible to have any kind of real conversation with.



It is hard to converse in a normal way when you want to put words in my mouth all of the time.

YM was training the first section of SNT in a way that was appropriate to him. I train in a way that is appropriate to me. We both train slowly and with repetition.


----------



## dudewingchun

Anyone focus on strengthening the tendons in the forms ?


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> _[I was talking about fighting strategy. We work the elbow a certain way in training, but as I said, not for the sake of an elbow position._
> 
> ---So exactly what is this mysterious elbow fighting strategy and how does it relate to the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form?  You still haven't explained that.



I don't know anything mysterious. Information on Yip Man VT fighting strategy is contained within the forms. It should be explained to you from the very beginning as you learn the motions so you know how abstract training relates to fighting strategy.

That way it's not left to imagination and becomes mysterious, as many people make up ideas about _Qigong_ and hidden mental powers.



> _So I'm not sure what you mean by "to reinforce elbow position" or what your end goal is. You seem to take a rather literal approach to your form, fighting from YJKYM._
> 
> ---Again, it was Guy that stated:   *It is training the elbow. Doing it slow strengthens the musculature and prevents cheating.*



And it was you that stated you train "_to reinforce elbow position_". That's not what Guy said, and he doesn't take a literal approach to the forms like you do.

You talk about fighting from YJKYM, "_maintaining a position along the moving line_", and "_proper placement or position of the elbow_". It sounds like you've just learned the motions but weren't taught the meaning, like most Yip Man students. The so-called "fixed elbow principle" is not a fighting principle.



> _I don't watch the clock or set a timer,_
> 
> ---So then it sounds like your answer is "No, I do not train the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form alone for up to an hour."



It could equally sound like I train it for longer than an hour. I often train outdoors in the evening and don't wear a watch when I train, so I don't know.

But you are leaping to the answer you want me to give so you can proclaim that training this way is only legendary and nobody does it, because you have no other explanation for it within the fight training methodology of Yip Man's VT and can only assume it's for Buddhist meditation, even though the guy was not a Buddhist.

It's okay if you don't know the purpose, but arguing against it when uninformed is a bit foolish.


----------



## dudewingchun

LFJ said:


> I don't know anything mysterious. Information on Yip Man VT fighting strategy is contained within the forms. It should be explained to you from the very beginning as you learn the motions so you know how abstract training relates to fighting strategy.
> 
> That way it's not left to imagination and becomes mysterious, as many people make up ideas about _Qigong_ and hidden mental powers.
> 
> 
> 
> And it was you that stated you train "_to reinforce elbow position_". That's not what Guy said, and he doesn't take a literal approach to the forms like you do.
> 
> You talk about fighting from YJKYM, "_maintaining a position along the moving line_", and "_proper placement or position of the elbow_". It sounds like you've just learned the motions but weren't taught the meaning, like most Yip Man students. The so-called "fixed elbow principle" is not a fighting principle.
> 
> 
> 
> It could equally sound like I train it for longer than an hour. I often train outdoors in the evening and don't wear a watch when I train, so I don't know.
> 
> But you are leaping to the answer you want me to give so you can proclaim that training this way is only legendary and nobody does it, because you have no other explanation for it within the fight training methodology of Yip Man's VT and can only assume it's for Buddhist meditation, even though the guy was not a Buddhist.
> 
> It's okay if you don't know the purpose, but arguing against it when uninformed is a bit foolish.



If by hidden powers you are referring to CST. I dont know about all that but I have rolled with some and they have this power that was not present in WSL lineage guys I rolled with. CST guys have alot of power and good springy structure.


----------



## LFJ

Referring to a number of groups. There's a lot of mystical Wing Chun out there.

I wouldn't expect much of anything to be present in the WSL lineage guys you rolled with.

Anyway, rolling is one thing. Fighting quite another. I'm more interested in what people can actually do in fighting.


----------



## dudewingchun

LFJ said:


> Referring to a number of groups. There's a lot of mystical Wing Chun out there.
> 
> I wouldn't expect much of anything to be present in the WSL lineage guys you rolled with.
> 
> Anyway, rolling is one thing. Fighting quite another. I'm more interested in what people can actually do in fighting.



Fair enough. They still kicked my *** anyway, but still I doubt any WSL would have that power present in CST lineage., feel free to prove me wrong. I would like to chi sao with some PB guys sometime in my life. Regardless of arguments, If you guys come to NZ give me a buzz. 

Yes I agree about fighting. Alot of lineages chi sao has zero cross over to real fighting. 

What lineage exactly do you do ? Im a bit confused. Are you WSL or ?


----------



## KPM

_It should be explained to you from the very beginning as you learn the motions so you know how abstract training relates to fighting strategy._

---I'd say that if you can't explain to us how the simple motions from the Saam Bai Fut section of SNT apply to your fighting strategy while having nothing to do with the position the elbow follows along the elbow line, then your system is likely is a bit too "abstract" to be all that practical.



_It could equally sound like I train it for longer than an hour. I often train outdoors in the evening and don't wear a watch when I train, so I don't know._

--Well, I will give you guys credit for one thing.....at least you neither one out-right lied to us and declared "of course I spend up to an hour doing the Saam Bai Fut motions on a regular basis!"   


_But you are leaping to the answer you want me to give so you can proclaim that training this way is only legendary and nobody does it, because you have no other explanation for it within the fight training methodology of Yip Man's VT and can only assume it's for Buddhist meditation, even though the guy was not a Buddhist._

---And now you are putting words in my mouth after I have already explained here what I meant.  Recall I noted that you don't have to be a Buddhist to practice basic mindfulness meditation.  I never said Ip Man was Buddhist.  I also pointed out that I learned this basic aspect of the SNT form when I first started learning Wing Chun 30 years ago.  I didn't make it up.


----------



## dudewingchun

KPM said:


> _It should be explained to you from the very beginning as you learn the motions so you know how abstract training relates to fighting strategy._
> 
> ---I'd say that if you can't explain to us how the simple motions from the Saam Bai Fut section of SNT apply to your fighting strategy while having nothing to do with the position the elbow follows along the elbow line, then your system is likely is a bit too "abstract" to be all that practical.
> 
> 
> 
> _It could equally sound like I train it for longer than an hour. I often train outdoors in the evening and don't wear a watch when I train, so I don't know._
> 
> --Well, I will give you guys credit for one thing.....at least you neither one out-right lied to us and declared "of course I spend up to an hour doing the Saam Bai Fut motions on a regular basis!"
> 
> 
> _But you are leaping to the answer you want me to give so you can proclaim that training this way is only legendary and nobody does it, because you have no other explanation for it within the fight training methodology of Yip Man's VT and can only assume it's for Buddhist meditation, even though the guy was not a Buddhist._
> 
> ---And now you are putting words in my mouth after I have already explained here what I meant.  Recall I noted that you don't have to be a Buddhist to practice basic mindfulness meditation.  I never said Ip Man was Buddhist.  I also pointed out that I learned this basic aspect of the SNT form when I first started learning Wing Chun 30 years ago.  I didn't make it up.



Also because Ip man wasnt a buddisht.. doesnt mean that buddhist things are not in the system. Not that I claim there are, just saying, he did not create wing chun or the methodology so why would one practitioners spiritual beliefs have anything to do with the system which was created by someone else however many years before Ip was even born?


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> ---I'd say that if you can't explain to us how the simple motions from the Saam Bai Fut section of SNT apply to your fighting strategy while having nothing to do with the position the elbow follows along the elbow line, then your system is likely is a bit too "abstract" to be all that practical.



If you train YMVT, your _sifu_ should be able to explain it beyond Buddhist meditation.

I can explain the system, but I'm not your _sifu_.



> --Well, I will give you guys credit for one thing.....at least you neither one out-right lied to us and declared "of course I spend up to an hour doing the Saam Bai Fut motions on a regular basis!"



And how do you know that would be a lie? Are you hiding in the bushes while I'm training?



> ---And now you are putting words in my mouth after I have already explained here what I meant.  Recall I noted that you don't have to be a Buddhist to practice basic mindfulness meditation.  I never said Ip Man was Buddhist.



What words did I put in your mouth? I never said you said he was Buddhist. But you're talking about a Buddhist meditation practice and YM doing it for no other reason that you can think of, when it is known that he stripped out a bunch of superstitious/religious ideas and trained for practicality in fighting.



> I also pointed out that I learned this basic aspect of the SNT form when I first started learning Wing Chun 30 years ago.  I didn't make it up.



So someone else made it up, or you're talking about a non-YM lineage. Probably mainland stuff.


----------



## LFJ

dudewingchun said:


> Also because Ip man wasnt a buddisht.. doesnt mean that buddhist things are not in the system. Not that I claim there are, just saying, he did not create wing chun or the methodology so why would one practitioners spiritual beliefs have anything to do with the system which was created by someone else however many years before Ip was even born?



Well, he was a skeptic and got rid of many religious elements the Chinese like to attach to everything.

His system is all about fighting.

Each part has its explanation as fight training, not meditation or cultivation of energies he didn't believe in.


----------



## guy b.

KPM said:


> Recall I noted that you don't have to be a Buddhist to practice basic mindfulness meditation. I never said Ip Man was Buddhist. I also pointed out that I learned this basic aspect of the SNT form when I first started learning Wing Chun 30 years ago. I didn't make it up.



Why would YM be doing something derived in 1980s America directly from Buddhist practice? Why wouldn't he be doing VT instead?


----------



## Danny T

guy b. said:


> Why would YM be doing something derived in 1980s America directly from Buddhist practice? Why wouldn't he be doing VT instead?


He wouldn't because he couldn't have.

No...because he could not have been doing VT.


----------



## KPM

guy b. said:


> Why would YM be doing something derived in 1980s America directly from Buddhist practice? Why wouldn't he be doing VT instead?



If you think mindfulness training originated in 1980's America, then you are obviously completely clueless!


----------



## KPM

I can explain the system, but I'm not your _sifu_.

---If you are not willing to explain something so straight-forward to the members of this discussion forum, then why are you here?


So someone else made it up, or you're talking about a non-YM lineage. Probably mainland stuff.

---Augustine Fong.....Ho Kam Ming.....Ip Man.   Again, you don't know what you're talking about if you think these basic mental training aspects aren't part of Wing Chun.


----------



## KPM

Here is what Hendrik has to say about it!


----------



## KPM

KPM said:


> So someone else made it up, or you're talking about a non-YM lineage. Probably mainland stuff.
> 
> ---Augustine Fong.....Ho Kam Ming.....Ip Man.   Again, you don't know what you're talking about if you think these basic mental training aspects aren't part of Wing Chun.



This is an excerpt from a self-published book series written by Master Augustine Fong in the early 80's.  This is from volume 7:  Theories and Concepts, from the section on the internal and external elements of the Wing Chun system. 

_"Emptiness enhances your awareness of the surroundings.  In addition, being empty enables you to realize the mistakes in your own techniques.  It gradually develops the longer you can be still.  Stillness or being calm helps both visually and sensually to decelerate the occurrences around you.  If you are not still, something can happen and you may miss part or all of it."_ 

Fong has been teaching this for close to 40 years.  He emphasized doing the Saam Bai Fut section slowly as part of this development.  Guy, LFJ...were you two even alive when this was written?  

I also learned the same in the Pin Sun WCK system.  This portion of our Dai Lim Tao short set is for helping to ingrain the movement of the elbow along the proper elbow line as well as developing this stillness of mind. 

But....neither one taught to do the Saam Bai Fut section for an hour!  Slowly, but not excruciatingly slow.  I still doubt that Ip Man actually trained that way either.


----------



## guy b.

KPM said:


> you think mindfulness training originated in 1980's America



The 1980s was when the practice was excised from buddhism and branded as "mindfulness" in western psychology/psychobabble


----------



## dudewingchun

guy b. said:


> The 1980s was when the practice was excised from buddhism and branded as "midfulness" in western psychology/psychobabble



Mindfulness is a very good skill to have regardless though. I can only see it helping wing chun, even if its grafted on imo.


----------



## guy b.

dudewingchun said:


> Mindfulness is a very good skill to have regardless though. I can only see it helping wing chun, even if its grafted on imo.



Why?


----------



## guy b.

KPM said:


> Here is what Hendrik has to say about it!



Ideas of normal VT appear very strange. Looks like he needs to practice SNT more. Impossible to listen to though really, I only looked at the pictures.


----------



## guy b.

KPM said:


> I learned this basic aspect of the SNT form when I first started learning Wing Chun 30 years ago. I didn't make it up.



If your SNT contains westernised teachings deriving from the noble eightfold path then probably somebody else added it on in the usual gap filling way some time after 1979. If your system incorporates actual buddhism then that's very interesting, but not particularly relevant to the VT system of Yip Man which does not contain such teachings


----------



## KPM

guy b. said:


> The 1980s was when the practice was excised from buddhism and branded as "mindfulness" in western psychology/psychobabble



It existed long before that!  But please keep posting and showing how clueless you really are!


----------



## guy b.

KPM said:


> It existed long before that!  But please keep posting and showing how clueless you really are!



Educate me then


----------



## dudewingchun

guy b. said:


> Why?



Well why not? there are more benefits to mindfulness then negatives ( if there are any)


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> I can explain the system, but I'm not your _sifu_.
> 
> ---If you are not willing to explain something so straight-forward to the members of this discussion forum, then why are you here?



I can discuss the system, but you seem to have no foundation with the first section of SNT.
If you want me to start an online mentorship program, I don't have time to do that for free.



> ---Augustine Fong.....Ho Kam Ming.....Ip Man.   Again, you don't know what you're talking about if you think these basic mental training aspects aren't part of Wing Chun.



I'm not denying it's part of _some people_'s Wing Chun. But as far as evidence shows, YM was non-religious and a skeptic, and he didn't teach Buddhist meditations as part of his VT fight training system.


----------



## dudewingchun

LFJ said:


> I can discuss the system, but you seem to have no foundation with the first section of SNT.
> If you want me to start an online mentorship program, I don't have time to do that for free.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not denying it's part of _some people_'s Wing Chun. But as far as evidence shows, YM was non-religious and a skeptic, and he didn't teach Buddhist meditations as part of his VT fight training system.



Do you have a problem with Alans online program? You seem to have taken a few digs at it before.


----------



## LFJ

Not particularly. Just teasing old KPM. But I personally don't believe VT can be learned properly via video alone, much less written word. Especially if we're not on the same page with the extreme basics of the system.


----------



## guy b.

dudewingchun said:


> Well why not? there are more benefits to mindfulness then negatives ( if there are any)



The mental training of Buddhism is intended to produce a radical shift in perception. It is associated with many other techniqes, beliefs and protocols specific to that religious tradition.

What are the benefits of "mindfulness", and what do they have to do with VT? Why would you wish to attain part of the altered perception of Buddhism without the framework and teachings of Buddhism?


----------



## dudewingchun

LFJ said:


> Not particularly. Just teasing old KPM. But I personally don't believe VT can be learned properly via video alone, much less written word. Especially if we're not on the same page with the extreme basics of the system.



Yes I kind of agree about that. But its all good for me because I regularly travel and visit him and get corrections. It actually is really useful for me in this situation. 

And for the mindfulness. Mindfulness has been studied to help people with depression effectively. Thats a benefit right there, but has nothing to do with VT. I dont really have an answer for you to be honest.


----------



## guy b.

dudewingchun said:


> And for the mindfulness. Mindfulness has been studied to help people with depression effectively. Thats a benefit right there, but has nothing to do with VT. I dont really have an answer for you to be honest.



Ok, so you now can't see any potential benefit to VT but think that it might help if you are depressed?

What do you think about the potential side effects (see next post).


----------



## guy b.

Here is an excerpt from a research paper about the modern midfulness movement and its relation to Buddhism:



> In a chapter in an edited volume on the role of culture in depression, Gananath
> Obeyesekere begins by quoting from Brown and Harris’s influential 1978 study on
> the social origins of depression in women:
> 
> The immediate response to loss of an important source of positive value is likely to be
> a sense of hopelessness, accompanied by a gamut of feelings, ranging from distress,
> depression, and shame to anger. Feelings of hopelessness will not always be restricted
> to the provoking incident—large or small. It may lead to thoughts about the hope-
> lessness of one’s life in general. It is such generalization of hopelessness that we believe
> forms the central core of depressive disorder. (Brown & Harris, 1978, p. 235)
> 
> To this Obeyesekere responds:
> This statement sounds strange to me, a Buddhist, for if it was placed in the context of
> Sri Lanka, I would say that we are not dealing with a depressive but a good Buddhist.
> The Buddhist would take one further step in generalization: it is not simply the general
> hopelessness of one’s own lot; that hopelessness lies in the nature of the world,
> and salvation lies in understanding and overcoming that hopelessness.
> 
> One might want to quibble with Obeyesekere; one might demand more
> evidence—both psychological and ethnographic—for the similarities he sees
> between good Sri Lankan Buddhists and American depressives. Do Sri Lankan
> Buddhists really aspire to a state that we would associate with depression? Or is the
> very idea of depression so culturally and historically constructed as to mitigate its
> cross-cultural utility? However one parses these issues, on purely doctrinal grounds
> Obeyesekere has a point: early Buddhist sutras in general, and Theravada teachings
> in particular, hold that (1) to live is to suffer, (2) the only genuine remedy to suffer-
> ing is escape from samsara (the phenomenal world) altogether, and (3) escape
> requires, among other things, abandoning hope that happiness in this world is
> possible.
> 
> If one has any doubts, consider the advanced stages of insight described in the
> Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga), an authoritative Pali compendium composed
> by the 5th-century monk Buddhaghosa in Sri Lanka. After an exhaustive account
> of the various practices and meditative states discussed in the scriptures,
> Buddhaghosa turns to the ascending “stages of insight” that immediately precede
> the attainment of liberation. The eight stages of insight include “knowledge of
> dissolution,” “knowledge of appearance as terror,” and “knowledge of danger,”
> and Buddhaghosa resorts to vivid similes to capture the affective tone that accom-
> panies these rarefied states. One of the most harrowing is found in the description
> of “knowledge of appearance as terror”:
> 
> A woman’s three sons had offended against the king, it seems. The king ordered their
> heads to be cut off. She went with her sons to the place of their execution. When they
> had cut off the eldest one’s head, they set about cutting off the middle one’s head.
> Seeing the eldest one’s head already cut off and the middle one’s head being cut off,
> she gave up hope for the youngest, thinking, “He too will fare like them.” Now, the
> meditator’s seeing the cessation of past formations is like the woman’s seeing the
> eldest son’s head cut off. His seeing the cessation of those present is like her seeing
> the middle one’s head being cut off. His seeing the cessation of those in the future,
> thinking, “Formations to be generated in the future will cease too,” is like her giving
> up hope for the youngest son, thinking, “He too will fare like them.” When he sees in
> this way, knowledge of appearance as terror arises in him at that stage. (Buddhaghosa,
> 1956/1976, Vol. 2, p. 753)
> 
> In other words, the emotional valence of this advanced stage of insight is likened to
> that of a mother being forced to witness the execution of all three of her sons.
> Could one imagine a more disturbing image of human anguish? Yet, according to
> Theravada teachings, it is necessary to experience such despair—to confront the
> unmitigated horror of sentient existence—so as to acquire the resolve necessary to
> abandon the last vestiges of attachment to things of this world. Obeyesekere would
> seem to have a point: states akin to what we identify as “depression” would seem to
> be valorized, if only for the insight they engender, on the Buddhist path.
> Yet today Buddhist insight is touted as the very antithesis of depression. Rather
> than cultivating a desire to abandon the world, Buddhism is seen as a science of
> happiness—a way of easing the pain of existence. Buddhist practice is reduced to
> meditation, and meditation, in turn, is reduced to mindfulness, which is touted as a
> therapeutic practice that leads to an emotionally fulfilling and rewarding life.
> Mindfulness is promoted as a cure-all for anxiety and affective disorders including
> post-traumatic stress, for alcoholism and drug dependency, for attention-deficit
> disorder, for anti-social and criminal behavior, and for the commonplace debilitat-
> ing stresses of modern urban life.


----------



## KPM

_[I can discuss the system, but you seem to have no foundation with the first section of SNT.
If you want me to start an online mentorship program, I don't have time to do that for free._

----    Let it be known that LFJ is not here to discuss his understanding of his Wing Chun with the rest of us.  He is just here to criticize others and cause problems.   Can anyone here (other than his twin brother Guy B.) honestly say they understand what he has been talking about as far as Saam Bai Fut training the elbow...while having nothing to do with the path the elbow travels down the elbow line?  


_I'm not denying it's part of some people's Wing Chun. But as far as evidence shows, YM was non-religious and a skeptic, and he didn't teach Buddhist meditations as part of his VT fight training system._

---As far as evidence shows.....Ip Man also didn't teach many of the things you are attributing to WSLVT either!   After all, in past threads you couldn't explain why WSL might have done these things that no other Ip Man student teaches.


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> Not particularly. Just teasing old KPM. But I personally don't believe VT can be learned properly via video alone, much less written word. Especially if we're not on the same page with the extreme basics of the system.



And you should have no problem explaining "extreme basics".....and yet.......


----------



## KPM

guy b. said:


> The mental training of Buddhism is intended to produce a radical shift in perception. It is associated with many other techniqes, beliefs and protocols specific to that religious tradition.
> 
> What are the benefits of "mindfulness", and what do they have to do with VT? Why would you wish to attain part of the altered perception of Buddhism without the framework and teachings of Buddhism?



  Mr. Clueless strikes again!   Yeah Guy!  Just keep showing your ignorance.  This is classic!


----------



## KPM

Here is just one of countless examples from Asian Culture.  This is from Traditional Chinese Archery.  I can assure everyone that this dates from well before the 1980's!     And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Buddhism directly.  Traditional Chinese Archery influenced Japanese Kyudo, which is also considered very much a "mindfulness" practice.


----------



## guy b.

KPM said:


> ---



I think the main issue is that you demand online teaching while trolling those you seek to gain it from. You don't offer anything in return, and apparently you suffer from an extreme case of hubris. Why supply detailed information to someone that appears intent on using it against you and the system you practice? Make the discussion more even and less about point scoring and I am sure you will see more interaction from LFJ. You will from me certainly. 



KPM said:


> in past threads you couldn't explain why WSL might have done these things that no other Ip Man student teaches.



This is a misrepresentation of past discussions. There is a reason, but you don't like to hear it.


----------



## KPM

_I think the main issue is that you demand online teaching while trolling those you seek to gain it from._

---No.  I think anyone posting regularly in a discussion forum should be prepared to share and discuss their knowledge, or go elsewhere.


_You don't offer anything in return,_

---I have shared plenty of information in this forum.  Including video of myself.


_Why supply detailed information to someone that appears intent on using it against you and the system you practice?_

---This is what you have done on multiple occasions!   I simply expect that if someone is going to make a statement about the intent and importance of a specific aspect of training that they back it up with details of what they think it actually trains.  What is so wrong with that?





_This is a misrepresentation of past discussions. There is a reason, but you don't like to hear it._

---And the reason that was given was that Ip Man chose not to teach anyone this "good stuff" other than WSL, and all students besides WSL must have been a little dense.  But we've already hashed that one out and know what you guys think about it.  I don't think your explanation was acceptable to anyone outside of the WSL lineage.


----------



## Phobius

guy b. said:


> The mental training of Buddhism is intended to produce a radical shift in perception. It is associated with many other techniqes, beliefs and protocols specific to that religious tradition.
> 
> What are the benefits of "mindfulness", and what do they have to do with VT? Why would you wish to attain part of the altered perception of Buddhism without the framework and teachings of Buddhism?



How did people jump from meditative purposes to mindfulness?

Mindfulness and meditation has a lot of things in common. Problem is that mindfulness is just a single training tool for buddhist meditation. That tool  was extracted, given a name and used to treat depression and stress in today's environment.

Meditation however is all about achieving an empty mind in order to achieve perfect focus. Once that focus is obtained a buddhist monk would seek enlightenment by reaching a higher level which is nothingness. But lets not go there for now.

The problem people have that are not skilled fighters is lack of focus, even some fighters have this. At some point during a fight their focus will waiver and when it does they will stop acting on what is there and instead try and control their opponent and force them to do something else. This is a moment where you are unprepared for the unexpected.

As such, for any martial art. Practise meditation to reach a clearer mind and a more focused one.

Someone like YM would know this, and it is all from it's time in buddhist temples I assume, where monks did not use martial art as a tool to fight but as a way to achieve focus and in such be closer to enlightenment. Note that this was not the only way to reach enlightenment and there were many monks focusing on other types of arts instead.

Now I am not a history teacher and there may be some flaws in this story, but as a whole the main aspect is. Focus is achieved/trained through meditation (at least real focus for longer than a few seconds or focus without adrenaline rushes). Focus is needed in martial arts in order to stay alive. YM was a martial artist.

All else is our own assumptions.

EDIT: Also western boxing does meditation, it just does not have a name. They have some exercises that they need to keep a clear mind in order to hit a bag or ball fast enough because as soon as focus is lost they might fumble. I guess however that they are not perfect exercies in terms of meditation but at least they give what is needed in terms of focus.

Different goals I think and I hardly think a martial artist should need to practise the type of meditation done by monks. It has to be considered what the end goal is.


----------



## guy b.

Phobius said:


> How did people jump from meditative purposes to mindfulness?



KPM mentioned mindfulness which is as you say a westernised Buddhist teaching separated from other Buddhist teachings


----------



## KPM

_How did people jump from meditative purposes to mindfulness?_

---Mindfulness training and basic meditation practice are inseparable.  Basic meditation is mindfulness training.


_Mindfulness and meditation has a lot of things in common. Problem is that mindfulness is just a single training tool for buddhist meditation. That tool  was extracted, given a name and used to treat depression and stress in today's environment._

---It may have been "extracted" more recently by pop psychology, but it has been a part of training in Asian cultures for generations.



_As such, for any martial art. Practise meditation to reach a clearer mind and a more focused one._

---Exactly!  And that meditation can take the form of sitting in a cross-legged position, or standing and being mindful of slow and deliberate movements....as in the archery video I posted, as in Kyudo, as in Tai Chi, as in the Japanese Tea Ceremony, etc......all of which pre-date 1980's America by a long shot!!!  


_Someone like YM would know this,_

---I think so too!  But whether he did or not, many Wing Chun people teach that one of the purposes of the Saam Bai Fut section of the SNT form is to do a very basic mindfulness-type exercise.


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> Can anyone here (other than his twin brother Guy B.) honestly say they understand what he has been talking about as far as Saam Bai Fut training the elbow...while having nothing to do with the path the elbow travels down the elbow line?



I said nothing of the sort. Nothing in the system is done without clear reason.



> ---As far as evidence shows.....Ip Man also didn't teach many of the things you are attributing to WSLVT either!   After all, in past threads you couldn't explain why WSL might have done these things that no other Ip Man student teaches.



Many of the things, like what?

There is plenty of evidence if you know what you're looking at.

And the explanation is perfectly clear. You just don't like it. Not my problem.


----------



## KPM

_There is plenty of evidence if you know what you're looking at.

And the explanation is perfectly clear. You just don't like it. Not my problem._

---Your evidence can just as easily support the idea that WSL or PB made the changes creating the differences you are seeing compared to other people's Wing Chun.  But that was a topic for another discussion and has already been done to death.  No need to revisit it here.   Let's stick to the topic.  Although...since you have said you are unwilling to share further on the topic of how the Saam Bai Fut section relates to your fighting strategy......there really is no reason to keep on here. Unless you and Guy just want to argue.


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> ---Your evidence can just as easily support the idea that WSL or PB made the changes creating the differences you are seeing compared to other people's Wing Chun.  But that was a topic for another discussion and has already been done to death.  No need to revisit it here.   Let's stick to the topic.



Well, if you're gonna bring it up, don't misrepresent the argument then try to walk away. 

There is actually a ton of evidence to draw a clear picture of YM's teaching style and temperament, and the fact that many of his students didn't receive much in the way of details on what they were doing, including testimonials from various students, one of which was already shown in this thread where the student admits to coming up with his own ideas!


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> Well, if you're gonna bring it up, don't misrepresent the argument then try to walk away.
> 
> There is actually a ton of evidence to draw a clear picture of YM's teaching style and temperament, and the fact that many of his students didn't receive much in the way of details on what they were doing, including testimonials from various students, one of which was already shown in this thread where the student admits to coming up with his own ideas!




Ah!  It looks as if you do indeed just want to argue.  Ok.  I'm out.


----------



## Mr.J

Nanuqcz said:


> Hello,
> how should I breath in Siu Lim Tao form? Especially when to breath in, and when to breath out?
> 
> My Sifu said it is not important, when I asked him. But I don't beleave it. That's why I am asking you here.
> 
> Based on Qi Gong, I suppose this principles:
> 1) When my arms goes close to my body, I should breath in.
> 2) When my arms goes away from my body, I should breath out.
> 
> But I can't be sure it's true for every move in the form. Also in the form, there are many moves in which you can't apply these principies, because your arms doesn't go closer or away from your body (end of the 4th set, or 6th set), so these principles will not work here.
> 
> Thanks,
> Michal Mikolas
> (practicing Wing-Chun for about 7 months now)




Hey i have no clue about the breathing. But i do require aide. I am teaching myself siu lim tau. And i was wondering if you could help?


----------



## Mr.J

geezer said:


> Ha! You made a really good point. There's a reason why this form is called _Siu Lim Tao/ Siu Nim Tao_ or _Little Idea Form. _You aren't supposed to think too much. The student who tries to embrace a "big idea" and learn everything at once will miss the point. The student that patiently focuses on the task at hand, the "little idea", and trains hard will, in time, gain deep understanding!



I am attempting to teach myself siu lim tau and i am curious of the liniage i am useing seeing as it is different from ip mans combination of hand movements for siu lim tau. If you could help awesome if not.... No worries.


----------



## yak sao

Mr.J said:


> I am attempting to teach myself siu lim tau and i am curious of the liniage i am useing seeing as it is different from ip mans combination of hand movements for siu lim tau. If you could help awesome if not.... No worries.



Although it doesn't look like much, self teaching yourself SNT/SLT is a pretty big undertaking.  There is a lot of subtlety and nuance.  What lineage are you using, also, is there anyone remotely close to you that you could get with at least occasionally?


----------



## Mr.J

yak sao said:


> Although it doesn't look like much, self teaching yourself SNT/SLT is a pretty big undertaking.  There is a lot of subtlety and nuance.  What lineage are you using, also, is there anyone remotely close to you that you could get with at least occasionally?



I dont know the liniage sadly though it is from an app i down loaded. At this web address.

.曾氏詠春拳(Wing Chun-Siu Lim Tao) - Android Apps on Google Play

It only works for android operating systems. As for someone close im in the midland michigan area. And as far as google tells me no. If you know of someone in the area i would much like to meet them.


----------



## Mr.J

yak sao said:


> Although it doesn't look like much, self teaching yourself SNT/SLT is a pretty big undertaking.  There is a lot of subtlety and nuance.  What lineage are you using, also, is there anyone remotely close to you that you could get with at least occasionally?



also my primary goal is meditation with siu lim tau. And the nuances are not lost on me.


----------



## Juany118

Mr.J said:


> also my primary goal is meditation with siu lim tau. And the nuances are not lost on me.



Well my Sifu says the following.  First breathing is VERY important, especially in the fuk sau section.  In that section you should actually be doing the breathing like Dai Tian breathing and the movements are slower than in other portions of the form (though not "Tai Chi" slow).  He also suggests that doing the form at a slower almost Tai Chi pace occasionally is not a bad idea for all students.  First it makes it easier for you to just your performance.  Second it helps you to develop the relaxation that WC pretty much requires.  Even now I have issues, though not as bad as when I started, of being obvious tense in the shoulders.  This not only creates issues with performing certain actions fluidly but inevitably does something no fighter wants to do, telegraphs my actions.  This however is, tbh, a personality issue with me that requires a lot of effort.  My nickname when I was in the Army was "stress monster".


----------



## Mr.J

Juany118 said:


> Well my Sifu says the following.  First breathing is VERY important, especially in the fuk sau section.  In that section you should actually be doing the breathing like Dai Tian breathing and the movements are slower than in other portions of the form (though not "Tai Chi" slow).  He also suggests that doing the form at a slower almost Tai Chi pace occasionally is not a bad idea for all students.  First it makes it easier for you to just your performance.  Second it helps you to develop the relaxation that WC pretty much requires.  Even now I have issues, though not as bad as when I started, of being obvious tense in the shoulders.  This not only creates issues with performing certain actions fluidly but inevitably does something no fighter wants to do, telegraphs my actions.  This however is, tbh, a personality issue with me that requires a lot of effort.  My nickname when I was in the Army was "stress monster".



See that backs up the reading ive done on wing chun... The slow movement that is breathing i dont focus on so much right now as im still not done learning all the sets in sia lim tau. Almost there though. Thank you. And as for tense shoulders i did one spot a bit to quick a hinked up my shoulder a bit but it forced me to slow down and its easing up now.


----------



## anerlich

dudewingchun said:


> Anyone focus on strengthening the tendons in the forms ?



How do the forms strengthen the tendons? You usually need reasonably strong resistance for that. Some perform the first section of SLT isometrically, but there are better ways to strengthen tendons IMO. If you're doing the form relaxed, there ain't much strengthening of anything going on.


----------



## anerlich

Who recorded the "fact" that Yip/Ip Man spent an hour doing the first part of SLT?

Dude sat there with a watch or something observing for an hour? The joke's on him.


----------



## anerlich

Phobius said:


> Problem is that mindfulness is just a single training tool for buddhist meditation.



Other way around IMO. Mindfulness need have nothing to do with Buddhist meditation. I would say Buddhist meditation is but one possible tool to work towards mindfulness. Other religious traditions incorporated types of meditation, with no reference to Buddhism.

I've tried to do Buddhist studies once or twice and the academic, historical and religious baggage (greater and lesser vehicles, mahayana, hinayana, etc. etc.) can be just as bad as in any other millenia-long religious tradition. I couldn't be bothered studying about all the different branches and lineages and their practices and beliefs. Overdosed on that with Wing Chun.

Sam Harris ("Waking Up") and Dan Harris ("10% Happier") have meditation regimes that work just fine without any references to Buddhism or any other tradition. The Headspace and Pranayama apps aren't too shabby, either. Arguably these are way better unless you really want to be a Buddhist.



Phobius said:


> Different goals I think and I hardly think a martial artist should need to practise the type of meditation done by monks. It has to be considered what the end goal is.



No one but monks should practise the meditation regimes performed by monks. There's an article out there called "The dangers of meditation" which discusses this extensively. Most of us are what would have been called "householders" in the Shaolin days. Monks don't have worldly jobs, businesses, families, kids, or go to the gym or dojo or kwoon or whatever. Householders need different practices from monks.

Dangers of Meditation


----------



## anerlich

The thread was originally about breathing during SLT. I generally practice SLT with three to four fairly slow breaths each time my arm goes out, and the same as it comes back in, during Sam Pai Fut. You generally bave to breathe out as you strike, though one exhalation may bridge a number of rapid strikes performed close together.

I don't think I'm out of line suggesting it is possible to overthink this.

There are many breathing regimes from a variety of cultural traditions. Qigong hardly has the franchise, and maybe not even the inside track. Freedivers, big wave surfers, yogis and people like Rickson Gracie and Wim Hof have breathing practices that make TCMA guys look like dilletantes.

Even in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, breathing is studied intensively by some advanced practitioners. The Gracies and some of their advanced students have unusual breathing practices both studied alone and employed during sparring/rolling. I had the privilege of wrestling with Steve Maxwell (5th degree BJJ black belt, 63 years old) a bit over a year ago, and marvelled at the measured cadence of his "stuttering" exhalations as he calmly reeled me in and overcame every defence I put in his way as he gently ratcheted me into a choke.

The first part of the article below discusses Steve Maxwell's multifaceted approach to breath.

My MA - tall tales and true: Steve Maxwell's Jiu Jitsu for Life seminar - 14 March 2015


----------



## anerlich

"In the West, I do not think it advisable to follow Buddhism. Changing religions is not like changing professions. Excitement lessens over the years, and soon you are not excited, and then where are you? Homeless inside yourself." 

– The Dalai Lama, quoted in Tibet, Tibet by Patrick French


----------



## KPM

anerlich said:


> Other way around IMO. Mindfulness need have nothing to do with Buddhist meditation. I would say Buddhist meditation is but one possible tool to work towards mindfulness. Other religious traditions incorporated types of meditation, with no reference to Buddhism.



I pointed out the exact same thing on another thread.  I even provided examples, including traditional archery.  The argument there was that Ip Man wasn't a Buddhist, so he couldn't possibly be doing a mindfulness meditation practice in the first part of his SNT form.  But as usual, the people supporting that idea were not convinced by any evidence to the contrary.  Some people are just very set in their thinking.  Makes you wonder why the choose to participate in a "discussion" form at all!


----------



## wtxs

KPM said:


> I pointed out the exact same thing on another thread.  I even provided examples, including traditional archery.  The argument there was that Ip Man wasn't a Buddhist, so he couldn't possibly be doing a mindfulness meditation practice in the first part of his SNT form.  *But as usual, the people supporting that idea were not convinced by any evidence to the contrary.  Some people are just very set in their thinking.  Makes you wonder why the choose to participate in a "discussion" form at all! *



Did you HAVE to go there?  Now I have to ask my wife to buy me more beer and popcorn.


----------



## Mr.J

KPM said:


> I pointed out the exact same thing on another thread.  I even provided examples, including traditional archery.  The argument there was that Ip Man wasn't a Buddhist, so he couldn't possibly be doing a mindfulness meditation practice in the first part of his SNT form.  But as usual, the people supporting that idea were not convinced by any evidence to the contrary.  Some people are just very set in their thinking.  Makes you wonder why the choose to participate in a "discussion" form at all!


Which is a damn Good point seeing as wing chun was created by a shaolin nun. And if i recall correctly shaolin are are also Buddhist who belive to understand violence one must study violence. To forget that i think is to miss an integral part of understanding wing chunand its applications.


----------



## geezer

anerlich said:


> The thread was originally about breathing during SLT. I generally practice SLT with three to four fairly slow breaths each time my arm goes out, and the same as it comes back in, during Sam Pai Fut.



I do the same when doing the saam pai fut moovements of SNT at a slow (but not excessively slow) pace. One slow breath (inhaling and exhaling) while going out and one returning is sufficient when moving faster leading class.  Seems like common sense.




anerlich said:


> Even in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, breathing is studied intensively by some advanced practitioners.



Seemed to help Dr. Banner:


----------



## anerlich

Mr.J said:


> Which is a damn Good point seeing as wing chun was created by a shaolin nun. And if i recall correctly shaolin are are also Buddhist who belive to understand violence one must study violence. To forget that i think is to miss an integral part of understanding wing chunand its applications.



While the role, even existence of Ng Mui, and the role of the Shaolin Temple in WC's development are IMO contestable, I think there's little doubt that Yip/Ip Man's focus was on effective fighting. There's no evidence he had any interest in spiritual development. Nor that he was a particularly good role model in any other areas of life. He certainly was demonstrably terrible at succession planning.

None of us know what he was thinking about while doing the forms. None of us know whether the one hour SLT actually happened or is apocryphal. There's no shortage of fiction, exaggeration and self-serving in other TCMA stories.


----------



## Mr.J

anerlich said:


> While the role, even existence of Ng Mui, and the role of the Shaolin Temple in WC's development are IMO contestable, I think there's little doubt that Yip/Ip Man's focus was on effective fighting. There's no evidence he had any interest in spiritual development. Nor that he was a particularly good role model in any other areas of life. He certainly was demonstrably terrible at succession planning.
> 
> None of us know what he was thinking about while doing the forms. None of us know whether the one hour SLT actually happened or is apocryphal. There's no shortage of fiction, exaggeration and self-serving in other TCMA stories.



Who says the effective fighting style  and spiritual development are mutually exclusive?


----------



## anerlich

Mr.J said:


> Who says the effective fighting style  and spiritual development are mutually exclusive?



Not me. Not sure how you got that out of my post.

Did Yip Man pursue both ends? No evidence of that IMO.


----------



## Mr.J

anerlich said:


> Not me. Not sure how you got that out of my post.
> 
> Did Yip Man pursue both ends? No evidence of that IMO.



You didn't i just like asking questions.


----------



## geezer

anerlich said:


> While the role, even existence of Ng Mui, and the role of the Shaolin Temple in WC's development are IMO contestable ....There's no shortage of fiction, exaggeration and self-serving in other TCMA stories.



Yes Virginia, there really is an Ng Mui. Don't listen to that evil old _Anerlich_, he's the Grinch of Songshan!


----------



## anerlich

Mr.J said:


> You didn't i just like asking questions.



Fair enough. FWIW, I'm not a fight-effectiveness-only trainee myself. My avatar is probably a bit of a giveaway.

I am not the Grinch you are looking for . Evil and old, quite possibly.


----------



## wckf92

anerlich said:


> He certainly was demonstrably terrible at succession planning.




Now that is funny!!! hahahahaha


----------



## Juany118

anerlich said:


> While the role, even existence of Ng Mui, and the role of the Shaolin Temple in WC's development are IMO contestable, I think there's little doubt that Yip/Ip Man's focus was on effective fighting. There's no evidence he had any interest in spiritual development. Nor that he was a particularly good role model in any other areas of life. He certainly was demonstrably terrible at succession planning.
> 
> None of us know what he was thinking about while doing the forms. None of us know whether the one hour SLT actually happened or is apocryphal. There's no shortage of fiction, exaggeration and self-serving in other TCMA stories.


Regarding Ng Mui as a person yes that can be contested but I found this description to justify the fact WC was created by a female compelling..




> When you look at Wing Chun’s horse (stance), Tansau, postures and concepts, they are all very strange and contradictory to male structure and thinking. Women have no obstacles between their legs, and so can comfortably press their knees inward (which is the basic stance in Wing Chun). Also, because of their proportionately wider pelvis compared to men, their femurs (thigh bones) verge naturally inward towards the knees, while men’s femurs are more perpendicularly aligned.
> 
> Women can also execute a Tansau more easily and naturally because of their inherently inward-angled upper arms. If you don’t believe me, ask your girlfriend or sister to fully stretch their arms out in front of them, with their palms touching at the baby-finger edge, and see how her forearms close the opening in the Centerline Plane. Women also have an inherently stronger and differently shaped lordosis (lower vertebrae) than males do in order to prepare them for childbirth. This gives women a stronger waist, posture and pelvis for better and stronger lower-trunk control.
> 
> As the saying goes, “Behind every great man, there is a great woman.” An old-fashioned woman is happy to appear to take the backseat, because she knows that, in reality, she’s at the forefront. It allows her to assuage a man’s ego while still retaining overall control. Men are too assertive and direct, which often gets them into trouble. Women, by contrast, are more indirect and yielding, and yet stay atop. This is the mentality required in perfecting one’s performance in Wing Chun.



I also found this analysis interesting in terms of arguing Ng Mui existed



> It is interesting how in Ip Man’s story, the Abbess Ng Mui is from Henan (some say from Fujian), and Yim Wing Chun from Guangdong—both in eastern China—yet they meet 2,000 kilometers away at the Daliang Mountain in Southwest China, then Yim Wing Chun returns all the way back to Guangdong where she and her husband develop the art further. A generation or two later, the art had found its way to Foshan, where Dr. Leung Jan, Chan Wah Shun, and Ip Man lived.
> 
> I say “interesting” because Wing Chun is considered a southeastern Chinese martial art. If this were a made-up story, why make it so elaborate as to take Yim Wing Chun from Southeast China to Southwest China and then return her back to Southeast, when the story could have easily placed her in Southeast China to develop the art like other Chinese arts such as Hong Gar, Choy Layfat, Fujian White Crane, and Southern Shaolin? I believe that there is great significance in this travel story. The most obvious one being that Abbess Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun, and Yim Wing Chun’s father were attempting to escape from the Manchurian soldiers.
> 
> Where better to hide than 2,000 kilometers away from home? Remember, in those days there were no planes, trains or automobiles. It would have taken the Manchurian soldiers no less than four hundred days on foot and a hundred days on horse to travel across the country. It wouldn’t have been logistically worthwhile for the Manchurian government to dispatch a small army across the country to hunt for just one or two criminals. In addition, the Daliang Mountain is situated at the border of Sichuan and Yunnan provinces in Southwest China. Yunnan particularly would have been a good hideout for Ng Mui and Wing Chun. Yunnan translates to “South of the Clouds” and it always was, and still is, considered a faraway, remote and inaccessible province in China. Until recently, the only means of traveling its narrow mountainous roads and torrential rivers was by mule, yak, sheep-skin floats, and rope-glides.



The above is from Sifu Danny Xuan's "The Tao of Wing Chun".  He doesn't teach my Lineage of WC but the book is a good read imo.


----------



## Juany118

anerlich said:


> "In the West, I do not think it advisable to follow Buddhism. Changing religions is not like changing professions. Excitement lessens over the years, and soon you are not excited, and then where are you? Homeless inside yourself."
> 
> – The Dalai Lama, quoted in Tibet, Tibet by Patrick French


I would just like to point out that he is speaking about Tibetan Buddhism, there are others out there that have fewer "complications" in terms of being integrated into the western psyche.  That said here is the Dali Lama speaking more comprehensively on the issue.

Dalai Lama Answers Questions on Various Topics

Note I don't follow Tibetan Buddhism myself but there are types of Zen that are fairly compatible as they often do away with the sutras and the like of other sects which can cause inner conflicts that can lead to the additional pitfalls that converting to faith born of a different culture can lead to.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


----------



## Juany118

anerlich said:


> Other way around IMO. Mindfulness need have nothing to do with Buddhist meditation. I would say Buddhist meditation is but one possible tool to work towards mindfulness. Other religious traditions incorporated types of meditation, with no reference to Buddhism.
> 
> I've tried to do Buddhist studies once or twice and the academic, historical and religious baggage (greater and lesser vehicles, mahayana, hinayana, etc. etc.) can be just as bad as in any other millenia-long religious tradition. I couldn't be bothered studying about all the different branches and lineages and their practices and beliefs. Overdosed on that with Wing Chun.
> 
> Sam Harris ("Waking Up") and Dan Harris ("10% Happier") have meditation regimes that work just fine without any references to Buddhism or any other tradition. The Headspace and Pranayama apps aren't too shabby, either. Arguably these are way better unless you really want to be a Buddhist.
> 
> 
> 
> No one but monks should practise the meditation regimes performed by monks. There's an article out there called "The dangers of meditation" which discusses this extensively. Most of us are what would have been called "householders" in the Shaolin days. Monks don't have worldly jobs, businesses, families, kids, or go to the gym or dojo or kwoon or whatever. Householders need different practices from monks.
> 
> Dangers of Meditation


And just one last thing.  Look at what the article says though.  The dangers?

Well first they are subjective.  Is the meditation the problem for the young lady who left the job or is it the boss because her meditation allowed her to see that it was the boss who was toxic and it gave her the strength to walk away?

He speaks of the gurus who are leading what amount to cults apparently.  Yes those are bad.  He also speaks of things like Yoga that when done improperly can result in injury.  Well it seems here that it's not the meditation that is the problem in either case but the teacher of the method of meditation.

Now this isn't to say meditation is not without dangers.  Many people don't want to look in the mirror honestly.  Meditation is all about doing this and some people may not like what they see and instead of accepting what they see and/or making changes (change isn't always necessary but acceptance  is) they can become depressed, perhaps clinically.  Also, like anything that requires effort and supplies a benefit, people can become obsessed with it.  

That all said we have to remember the guy who wrote that article is trying to sell HIS form of meditation. /Shrug

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## anerlich

Hmmm ... whoever claimed the obstacle between his legs was so bulky as to make the WC stance difficult for him was probably conducting some false advertising.

Wouldn't a wider pelvis make it more, rather than less, difficult to clamp the knees together? This could be easily verified, but then women also tend to be more mobile and flexible than men, which might even it out. Not all WC styles have a pronounced knee clamp, but that might only have happened once men got a hold of it.

Other styles require the elbow in stuff. Dragon prawn boxing is one example. You round your back and bring your elbows in so as to make like a prawn, protecting the soft parts of the torso.

I'm no anatomy expert, but while women are designed for childbirth, men are better designed for lifting and supporting heavy objects, much of which involves the musculature around the waist, pelvis/glutes, and lower body.

Interesting thoughts, but it sounds to me like he's searching for premises to fit the conclusions he wants, rather than the other way round.


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## anerlich

Juany118 said:


> I would just like to point out that he is speaking about Tibetan Buddhism, there are others out there that have fewer "complications" in terms of being integrated into the western psyche.  That said here is the Dali Lama speaking more comprehensively on the issue.
> 
> Dalai Lama Answers Questions on Various Topics



It's debatable whether he is talking about Tibetan Buddhism only in that discussion. He could be talking about it and Buddhism in general or switching from the general to the particular and back. He has as much right to give his opinions on all types of Buddhism, probably with more authority,  as you or I.

I had a big argument with my then boss about two months after I started a simple meditation practice. Though that had been brewing for a while and I'm not sorry it happened. I found I became a bit calmer and had a little more control over my emotions. I intentionally sought only minor improvements and not drastic changes. I've had enough involvement with cult-like organisations and various types of spiritual seekers in 61 years of life and about 36 years of martial arts to understand myself and what is good and bad for me reasonably well. I'm as sure of this as I guess anyone can be.

I've seen a few, not a lot, of people make poor choices as the result of martial arts training or spiritual exploration. Some due to bad influences (including one KF instructor, though arguably he f***D his own life at least as badly as anyone else's), some solely the result of their own misadventures.

Getting off topic, unless someone can prove that Yip Man followed a particular Buddhist lineage for which he used the first part of SLT as a method of practice. And that this involved some sort of special breathing.


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## Juany118

anerlich said:


> Hmmm ... whoever claimed the obstacle between his legs was so bulky as to make the WC stance difficult for him was probably conducting some false advertising.
> 
> Wouldn't a wider pelvis make it more, rather than less, difficult to clamp the knees together? This could be easily verified, but then women also tend to be more mobile and flexible than men, which might even it out. Not all WC styles have a pronounced knee clamp, but that might only have happened once men got a hold of it.
> 
> Other styles require the elbow in stuff. Dragon prawn boxing is one example. You round your back and bring your elbows in so as to make like a prawn, protecting the soft parts of the torso.
> 
> I'm no anatomy expert, but while women are designed for childbirth, men are better designed for lifting and supporting heavy objects, much of which involves the musculature around the waist, pelvis/glutes, and lower body.
> 
> Interesting thoughts, but it sounds to me like he's searching for premises to fit the conclusions he wants, rather than the other way round.



It's not the wider pelvis that is important in that bit, it's the fact the wider pelvis results in an inward angle to the femur.  I agree with you on the issue of styles though, I study under GM William Cheung's School of thought and we basically simply stand in a horse stance (toes aren't pointed inward either) with a forward filter pelvis but that appears to be a variation of his design.  The author of the book is speaking of what YM himself taught.

The thing regarding other styles using similar techniques, you are right but at the same time, even your example is involving rounding the back in addition to bringing the arms in an exaggerated manner.  WC, at least in my opinion, is more about being efficient in action and form with little such exaggeration.

As for strength, here is a good primer on the issue... Do Women Have More Lower Body Strength Than Men?

It's not that women are "stronger" than men as much as that when it comes to that portion of the body, likely due to the fact they have to be prepared to suddenly deal with all the added weight of a pregnancy, their lower body has more equal strength to a man whereas their upper body doesn't.


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## Juany118

anerlich said:


> It's debatable whether he is talking about Tibetan Buddhism only in that discussion. He could be talking about it and Buddhism in general or switching from the general to the particular and back. He has as much right to give his opinions on all types of Buddhism, probably with more authority,  as you or I.
> 
> I had a big argument with my then boss about two months after I started a simple meditation practice. Though that had been brewing for a while and I'm not sorry it happened. I found I became a bit calmer and had a little more control over my emotions. I intentionally sought only minor improvements and not drastic changes. I've had enough involvement with cult-like organisations and various types of spiritual seekers in 61 years of life and about 36 years of martial arts to understand myself and what is good and bad for me reasonably well. I'm as sure of this as I guess anyone can be.
> 
> I've seen a few, not a lot, of people make poor choices as the result of martial arts training or spiritual exploration. Some due to bad influences (including one KF instructor, though arguably he f***D his own life at least as badly as anyone else's), some solely the result of their own misadventures.
> 
> Getting off topic, unless someone can prove that Yip Man followed a particular Buddhist lineage for which he used the first part of SLT as a method of practice. And that this involved some sort of special breathing.


Well I can only speak to my link, which is clearly referring to Tibetan Buddhism, as he names it more than once.  Also I know that quote you have is all over the web but I suspect it is not being seen in its full context because my link definitely has the Dali Lama speaking regarding conversion in a much more accepting way.  He is of course more of an authority.

As for the Buddhist thing I believe people may be getting a little confused.  I have read elsewhere how people see Taoist stuff in it and some people even get Chan Buddhism and Taoism confused.  This I think comes from the fact they can't seperate elements that maybe a product of Chinese Culture and those that made be a product of those spiritual paths.

That said I have another idea to confuse things even more... Confucianism! . In 1000 AD the Neo-Confucian movement started as a way to remove the superstitions of Chan Buddhism and Taoism that had entered the movement during the Han dynasty.  It still uses certain metaphysical concepts familiar to the two spiritual movements but instead of using it to achieve enlightenment or immortality it is to support the frame work of a rational ethical philosophy. The movement totally accepts the reality of our world, our individuality and our place in it.  It also has its own form of meditation.  Now while suppressed by the Chinese Communist Party until the age of free market reforms, it is now growing quite rapidly again.  Ip Chun himself is actually one of the most vocal supporters of the importance of Confucian thought to WC.  Here is an interesting read that I think goes to the heart of that point.

Does Wing Chun need a “spiritual” center?  Is it Confucianism?

From that article an interesting quote, regarding Ip Chun speaking of his father...



> He points out that his father was, in essence, a Confucian gentleman with a dual Confucian and western education.  He was never a Buddhist (though he was certainly conversant with its core ideas) and the most Daoist thing about his life was probably his burial.  However, as Chu Shong Tin and others have testified, his early students remember him as the living embodiment of Confucian values.



So we can have breathing as an important part via Confucianism.  On another note it actually makes sense for a Martial art.  Dai- Tian breathing is actually very good for combat.  In the West it is often taught as "tactical breathing".  In times of stress it helps to control heart rate, even during right or flight which in turn helps to mitigate the negative effects on cognition and perception that the fight or flight response can have on the fighter.

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## anerlich

Juany118 said:


> It's not the wider pelvis that is important in that bit, it's the fact the wider pelvis results in an inward angle to the femur.



Don't see what difference that makes to the ease of getting the knees in. The angle of the femur has to be more inward to allow if the pelvis is wider from simple geometry.



Juany118 said:


> I agree with you on the issue of styles though, I study under GM William Cheung's School of thought and we basically simply stand in a horse stance (toes aren't pointed inward either) with a forward filter pelvis but that appears to be a variation of his design.  The author of the book is speaking of what YM himself taught.



My instructor was a student of William Cheung also. Until 1995.



Juany118 said:


> The thing regarding other styles using similar techniques, you are right but at the same time, even your example is involving rounding the back in addition to bringing the arms in an exaggerated manner.  WC, at least in my opinion, is more about being efficient in action and form with little such exaggeration.



I don't see that camping the knees together or forcing the elbow go to the midline - in an exaggerated manner as discussed with WC - has anything to do with efficiency of action or form  either. The fingers come to the centre in my SLT, the elbow stays on a line between the shoulder and hand to keep structure strong. Pulling it in further weakens the stucture.


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## Juany118

anerlich said:


> Don't see what difference that makes to the ease of getting the knees in. The angle of the femur has to be more inward to allow if the pelvis is wider from simple geometry.
> 
> 
> 
> My instructor was a student of William Cheung also. Until 1995.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see that camping the knees together or forcing the elbow go to the midline - in an exaggerated manner as discussed with WC - has anything to do with efficiency of action or form  either. The fingers come to the centre in my SLT, the elbow stays on a line between the shoulder and hand to keep structure strong. Pulling it in further weakens the stucture.




On the last bit.  Do the experiment of asking a female to do the thing with the hands.  Interesting side note, not only does what he describe happen in terms of the visible geometry of a women's arms BUT women can naturally hyper extend their elbow further than a man.  Evolutionary biologists believe that this is an adaptation to allow a mother to hold her infant for extended periods of time.  Here are some photos regarding the elbow (this is from a violin site speaking to the impacts for the musicians)













As you can see, simply by looking at these photos of an extended arm at rest, the female would have to exert less energy as her arm is already naturally predisposed to such a position (any muscular exertion costs energy) to have her arm in the position discussed.

As for the angle thing with the femur, if you already have a natural tilt, that also provides stability, it is less effort, and more comfortable relative to the person who lacks that natural angle, to increase that angle, within limits of course.  So again less exertion/more natural.






Can men do these things?  Obviously they can.  The contention however is that as these are actions that are more comfortably/naturally performed by a women due to the natural structure of her limbs, that it is logical that a women developed the techniques in the first place.

None of this of course is 100% concrete proof but it is an interesting analysis imo none the less.








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## KPM

Juany118 said:


> It's not the wider pelvis that is important in that bit, it's the fact the wider pelvis results in an inward angle to the femur.  .



Just a small interjection....yes, Juany is correct.   Women have a wider pelvis, which makes the femurs angle inward more than men.  This is called the "Q angle", and is the reason that women are more prone to patellofemoral problems than men.


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## anerlich

Juany118 said:


> As for the angle thing with the femur, if you already have a natural tilt, that also provides stability, it is less effort, and more comfortable relative to the person who lacks that natural angle, to increase that angle, within limits of course.  So again less exertion/more natural.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can men do these things?  Obviously they can.  The contention however is that as these are actions that are more comfortably/naturally performed by a women due to the natural structure of her limbs, that it is logical that a women developed the techniques in the first place.



I doubt the larger angle would make pulling the knees in more natural or comfortable. I think it would put increased strain on the medial and perhaps other ligaments of the knee. And, come on. The word "logical" does not belong in that final sentence.

I'm still doing my three to four breaths on each inward and outward movement in Sam Pai Fut.

18 years of BJJ shows me that removing a martial art from its originating culture need not dilute it, in fact the reverse can be true. so what Yip Man or Ip Chun or Ng Mui or anyone else may or may not have done isn't really much of a concern TBH.


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## Juany118

anerlich said:


> I doubt the larger angle would make pulling the knees in more natural or comfortable. I think it would put increased strain on the medial and perhaps other ligaments of the knee. And, come on. The word "logical" does not belong in that final sentence.
> 
> I'm still doing my three to four breaths on each inward and outward movement in Sam Pai Fut.
> 
> 18 years of BJJ shows me that removing a martial art from its originating culture need not dilute it, in fact the reverse can be true. so what Yip Man or Ip Chun or Ng Mui or anyone else may or may not have done isn't really much of a concern TBH.



It's a matter of overall body mechanics.  Picture it this way...

The femur barely has to increase it's angle and largely stays at the same as the female would standing, the only point of flexion is at the knee, so the degree of stress is not different, the female simply exerts less muscular energy.  The male, in that particular stance, (short form) has to exert energy by settling down, angling in the femur then angling the tibia and fibula out etc. The female has to exert less effort on step 2 but exerts the same effort as the male on steps 1 and 3.  If anything the male is in a worse off position in terms of stress.  Stress at a joint comes at both sides of the point of flexion, on a female the top portion, where the femur meets the knee has to move in noticeably less on a female so there is less stress.


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## KPM

Just another small interjection......  My Tang Yik Weng Chun Sifu in HK explains some of the differences between Wing Chun and Weng Chun (Weng Chun doesn't have the pigeon-toed YGKYM or pull the elbows into the center) by saying that Wing Chun was developed by a woman, and she was obviously concerned about protecting her "female parts" when confronted by larger men.  Hence knees and elbows in.  If course, he wasn't there when Wing Chun was developed either!  So its all just speculation!  ;-)


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## geezer

I don't know. Just because the pigeon-toed _yee gee kim yeiung ma_  looks like something a woman could do more easily doesn't have anything to do with why we stand that way or how it originated. Stories about Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun need to be looked at as instructive parables and essentially as the creation myths of our system rather than as literal truth. Looking at the stance and arm positions and then then jumping to conclusions about the sex of the style's founders is nothing more than speculation. And pretty improbable speculation, IMO.

In the known history of WC going back at least to the time of Leung Jan in the mid 1800s, _all_ the masters of WC were men. And virtually all recorded Chinese boxers in general were men. The female heroes and villains of _wuxia_ novels and legends from Hua Mulan to Yim Wingchun not withstanding, the cultural norms of the times did not allow for female boxers and warriors.


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## Juany118

geezer said:


> I don't know. Just because the pigeon-toed _yee gee kim yeiung ma_  looks like something a woman could do more easily doesn't have anything to do with why we stand that way or how it originated. Stories about Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun need to be looked at as instructive parables and essentially as the creation myths of our system rather than as literal truth. Looking at the stance and arm positions and then then jumping to conclusions about the sex of the style's founders is nothing more than speculation. And pretty improbable speculation, IMO.
> 
> In the known history of WC going back at least to the time of Leung Jan in the mid 1800s, _all_ the masters of WC were men. And virtually all recorded Chinese boxers in general were men. The female heroes and villains of _wuxia_ novels and legends from Hua Mulan to Yim Wingchun not withstanding, the cultural norms of the times did not allow for female boxers and warriors.


That's why I don't just look at the legs it's the totality of the circumstances


-the arm positions are also consistent with the female form.
-the overall mindset, softness/relaxation to produce force and defense
-designed to deal with larger opponents.
-plus you go into the actual details of the story which I linked earlier.  The names may have been changed to "protect the innocent" but most parables, even ones from Asia tend to be far simpler than the details of the WC story.  So either the person who came up with it should have been a suspense novelist, or it has some truth to it, even if is just that "Nun Jane Doe" made the art.

Simply because cultural norms lead in one direction doesn't mean there are not exceptions to the rule.  In 300 years what will people say of Annie Oakley?

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## anerlich

Juany118 said:


> It's a matter of overall body mechanics.  Picture it this way...
> 
> The femur barely has to increase it's angle and largely stays at the same as the female would standing, the only point of flexion is at the knee, so the degree of stress is not different, the female simply exerts less muscular energy.  The male, in that particular stance, (short form) has to exert energy by settling down, angling in the femur then angling the tibia and fibula out etc. The female has to exert less effort on step 2 but exerts the same effort as the male on steps 1 and 3.  If anything the male is in a worse off position in terms of stress.  Stress at a joint comes at both sides of the point of flexion, on a female the top portion, where the femur meets the knee has to move in noticeably less on a female so there is less stress.



Overall body mechanics? OK.

The increased Q angle for the female already makes the knee more susceptible to knee problems, as we were advised by KPM, i.e. with more stress than the male. Push the knees in further and increase the stress. Doesn't sound like much of a plan to me.

Haven't seen many untrained women standing around with their knees turned in for comfort lately myself. Things may be different in your neck of the woods.

The premise about the stance IMO is open to challenge to say the least, and the "conclusions" drawn from it, that WC therefore must have been developed by a woman or women, and therefore that Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun existed and created it, are flat out preposterous. 

Would Karate's Sanchin Dachi stance also have been developed by a woman? ... I guess if you were one eyed and bloody minded enough about it, you could say Karate came from White Crane, and Ng Mui allegedly invented White Crane, along with Wing Chun, Dragon boxing, Wu Mei Pai (her own style), and five pattern Hung Kuen. Busier than the apocryphal one legged man in an a$$-kicking competition, that lady.

Film versions have her dressed in expensive clothes, plucked eyebrows, and perfect long hair and makeup. AS many written version of her story exist as there are writers. Jeez, I even wrote one myself.

My MA - tall tales and true: Bil Jee

I like flights of fancy for diversion or entertainment as much as the next guy, but I'm close to out of gas on this one.


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## anerlich

Juany118 said:


> -the overall mindset, softness/relaxation to produce force and defense
> -designed to deal with larger opponents.



Styles from Taiji to Jiu Jitsu make the identical claims.


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## anerlich

Anyone got anything else to say on breathing?


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## Juany118

anerlich said:


> Styles from Taiji to Jiu Jitsu make the identical claims.


And taking them out of the context I laid out is a problem.  When evaluating oral histories you have to look at the totality of circumstances to see how much truth there is to it. It isn't just that, it is also the biomechanics and the details of the story itself, along with those two things.  

Again, in terms of the story, why would you have 2 people from South East China by happenstance meet 2000 miles away, then return to the place where they were both originally from, when you can simply have them stay in the same place?  There are other little details that pure myth don't go to the trouble of including.

It is the totality of the circumstances that, to my mind at least, make the story plausible.  Maybe not the names and the like but the general basis that a women was involved in the development of the art.

That said, you had earlier noted that this was kinda off track, and it is.  I noted that the breathing could actually be part of SLT and noted that it's origin could be Confucian in origin, even using Ip Chun as a source.  I am curious to know your thoughts on the matter.

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## Nobody Important

Apparently we don't have many farmers or individuals who grew up on a farm. Goat Clamping stance is literal. Most effective way for a single individual to control the animal for shearing. That being said, why is it the foundation stance of WC? This stance is for immobilizing.



 

 

 

 

 
These aren't the greatest examples but you get the idea. The stance is a means of keeping the animal under control so it doesn't get away. Goat Clamping stance is not some mystical internal way of standing. It has nothing to do with male or female anatomy. It is literal interpretation directly transferred into WC and speaking from experience, is performed in the same manner. Grew up in a farming community, had to help shear goats & sheep. Same stance used to hold them when working on their hooves.


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## anerlich

I read the thing about Confucianism but didn't pick up the reference to breathing. Could you elaborate?

With the goat clamping stance, it is indeed possible that the name actually refers to a specific function. I think it is more likely that the name was chosen because that stance adopted for WC looked similar to the stance used for shearing or whatever was done to the poor goats back in those times. However, that's just supposition on my part and it's not a position I'll defend until I'm blue in the face. I'll leave that sort of thing to others.


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## anerlich

"Ip Chun has discussed this and argued that Chi Sao should be augmented explicitly with this sort of mindfulness training.  Further, Wing Chun students should, in his view, study the Confucian “Doctrine of the Mean” as well as traditional Chinese ethics. "

I'm going to pass on this. I have no great interest in Buddhism or Confucianism. Would Genghis Khan have followed "Traditional Chinese ethics"? Yes, I know he was a Mongol, but he ruled practically all of Asia and a good deal of Europe for quite a while. Ethics-wise, he made Hitler and Pol Pot look like amateurs.

If you try chi sao without some measure of awareness of the present involved, you'll be getting smacked.

As the writer of the article implies, this appears to be politics and marketing from Ip Chun.


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## Nobody Important

Not to derail the thread, but there are numerous techniques in CMA that are based on actual "working" movements. Fisherman Casts a Net, Sharp Knife Cuts Bamboo, Maiden Works Shuttles, Lifting a Calf, Plucking Flowers, Old Man Carries a Fish on His Back etc. Not all techniques are mysterious or metaphorical, some are simply based on the everyday movements of the working class who toiled in the rice paddies, on the farm or in the rivers, lakes & sea. Repetitive movements of lifting, pulling, dragging, hitting etc. we're naturally incorporated into their self defense methods.


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## anerlich

Good point, NI.


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## Juany118

anerlich said:


> "Ip Chun has discussed this and argued that Chi Sao should be augmented explicitly with this sort of mindfulness training.  Further, Wing Chun students should, in his view, study the Confucian “Doctrine of the Mean” as well as traditional Chinese ethics. "
> 
> I'm going to pass on this. I have no great interest in Buddhism or Confucianism. Would Genghis Khan have followed "Traditional Chinese ethics"? Yes, I know he was a Mongol, but he ruled practically all of Asia and a good deal of Europe for quite a while. Ethics-wise, he made Hitler and Pol Pot look like amateurs.
> 
> If you try chi sao without some measure of awareness of the present involved, you'll be getting smacked.
> 
> As the writer of the article implies, this appears to be politics and marketing from Ip Chun.



There is a difference between Buddhist and Confucian meditation.  As much as I use Zen Meditation techniques the manner/purpose of of the meditation, is definitely Confucian.  Jing zuo or quiet sitting, is what Confucian meditation is called.  There is a fundamental difference between Neo-Confucians and Buddhist or Daoist meditation.  These are the best, brief, explanations I have seen on the matter.

 "Neo-Confucians argued that quiet sitting was oriented to this world and aimed at perfecting one's self, whereas Buddhist and Daoist meditation focused on forgetting the world and abandoning one's self."

And

"Neo-Confucian scholars take quiet sitting (Jing zuo) to be only a way to help understand one's gain in self-cultivation and they do not see it as a means to isolate oneself from human affairs. They believe that it is only within this world and among worldly affairs that one can progress in the path of spiritual cultivation."

Mindfulness can be "active" as well.  I understand also that such ideas aren't to everyone's taste and that's fine.  The question here though appears to be, A) is there breathing/meditative qualities to SLT and B) if so from where did it come?

As for Genghis Khan, that seems like a bit of a strawman.  That said, the way he acted was largely similar to other "Lords" of his day.  He was only a stand out because of how successful he was.

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## anerlich

The thread was already derailed IMO. Sometimes interesting discussions come out of that, sometimes not.

To continue down the derailed track, this sort of poetic or metaphoric naming is still alive and well in Jiu Jitsu. We have Jaws of Life, the Electric Chair, Dogfight, Powder Keg, Peruvian Necktie, Drowning Wizard, Vaporizer, Anaconda, Exhumer, Bear Trap, Night of the Living Dead, Mission Control, Crackhead Control, Truck, Twister, Banana Split, Texas Cloverleaf ... Most of these were given these names originally so coaches could yell them out to competitors, without the other side knowing WTF they were on about, but they are now part of the vocabulary.


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## anerlich

Wing Chun forums abound with strawmen. Perhaps true in this case. Look too far back at "traditional ethics" in most societies and you find subjugation, bloodshed, torture and executions.

I'm arguing with Ip Chun here, not you. Well, in this specific instance at least.

Breathing? Can't see any reasons from posts here to change what I currently do. Finding out definitively where anything came from wouldn't change my mind ... because it ain't going to happen.


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## Juany118

anerlich said:


> Wing Chun forums abound with strawmen. Perhaps true in this case. Look too far back at "traditional ethics" in most societies and you find subjugation, bloodshed, torture and executions.
> 
> I'm arguing with Ip Chun here, not you. Well, in this specific instance.
> 
> Breathing? Can't see any reasons from posts here to change what I currently do.


I don't think anyone was suggesting that you change, only that many of us, if not most, were taught that there is a proper way to breath.  It makes sense in terms of combat (Google "tactical breathing") and it can have its origins in Neo-Confucian thought.  

The main reason I said it was a strawman though is that the Khan comment bordered on a non-sequitur.  How many Christian kings were decidedly "unChristian"?  Simply because a leader doesn't practice what one may call the core principles of one of the Philosophies of his people/Nation doesn't mean that, by extension, the Philosophy had no impact.  There were corrupt monks of Shaolin but clearly Buddhist thought influenced the various Shaolin martial arts.  The same could be said of Taoism and Bushido as well.

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## anerlich

Fair enough, bro. I'm done, how about a truce?


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## Juany118

anerlich said:


> Fair enough, bro. I'm done, how about a truce?


Works for me [emoji4] 

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## KPM

anerlich said:


> I
> 
> With the goat clamping stance, it is indeed possible that the name actually refers to a specific function. I think it is more likely that the name was chosen because that stance adopted for WC looked similar to the stance used for shearing or whatever was done to the poor goats back in those times. However, that's just supposition on my part and it's not a position I'll defend until I'm blue in the face. I'll leave that sort of thing to others.



Have you guys seen Sergio's vid where he claims "goat clamping" was a misinterpretation?  If I remember the reasoning correctly.....the name for the stance was primarily passed down orally.  The Cantonese word for "goat" is very close to "yeung", which is the Cantonese equivalent of "yang"....as in "yin & yang."  So the real name for the stance is something like "character Gee, Yang adduction stance".  The "Yang" referring to the acupuncture channels supposedly activated when standing in the stance.  But somewhere along the line the meaning was lost and replaced with "goat clamping."   Maybe because it was more colorful, more obvious, and more easily remembered! ;-)


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## KPM

Juany118 said:


> "Neo-Confucian scholars take quiet sitting (Jing zuo) to be only a way to help understand one's gain in self-cultivation and they do not see it as a means to isolate oneself from human affairs. They believe that it is only within this world and among worldly affairs that one can progress in the path of spiritual cultivation."



This sounds very much like modern psychology's approach to "mindfulness meditation."  It is seen as a way to lower blood pressure and reduce stress and not as a means of "spiritual cultivation" or "enlightenment."   "Self-cultivation" would certainly included reducing your day to day stress so that you can think more clearly and calmly when dealing with "human affairs."


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## KPM

Juany118 said:


> I don't think anyone was suggesting that you change, only that many of us, if not most, were taught that there is a proper way to breath.  It makes sense in terms of combat (Google "tactical breathing") and it can have its origins in Neo-Confucian thought.



I think you have also made good points in support of the idea that, as a Confucian, there is the possibility that Ip Man saw doing the first part of the SLT form so slowly as a form of "mindfulness" meditation or "Jing Zuo."


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## KPM

KPM said:


> Have you guys seen Sergio's vid where he claims "goat clamping" was a misinterpretation?  If I remember the reasoning correctly.....the name for the stance was primarily passed down orally.  The Cantonese word for "goat" is very close to "yeung", which is the Cantonese equivalent of "yang"....as in "yin & yang."  So the real name for the stance is something like "character Gee, Yang adduction stance".  The "Yang" referring to the acupuncture channels supposedly activated when standing in the stance.  But somewhere along the line the meaning was lost and replaced with "goat clamping."   Maybe because it was more colorful, more obvious, and more easily remembered! ;-)



Took some digging but I found it!


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## Juany118

KPM said:


> This sounds very much like modern psychology's approach to "mindfulness meditation."  It is seen as a way to lower blood pressure and reduce stress and not as a means of "spiritual cultivation" or "enlightenment."   "Self-cultivation" would certainly included reducing your day to day stress so that you can think more clearly and calmly when dealing with "human affairs."


Even "spiritual cultivation", in the context of that period, to modern psychology.  In that age the idea of "mental health" as a Science of the mind didn't really exist.  Stress, mental illness and the like were often seen as spiritually driven as they didn't have the knowledge to understand that various symptoms were products of hormones, neurotransmitters, chemical imbalances etc. instead they were "diseases of the spirit" or disrupted flows of Chi and the like.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Buka

I wonder if the OP is still around?

Despite derailments and everything else - this might be my favorite thread of all time. I hope it keeps going. Great reading. No kidding.


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## Nobody Important

KPM said:


> Have you guys seen Sergio's vid where he claims "goat clamping" was a misinterpretation?  If I remember the reasoning correctly.....the name for the stance was primarily passed down orally.  The Cantonese word for "goat" is very close to "yeung", which is the Cantonese equivalent of "yang"....as in "yin & yang."  So the real name for the stance is something like "character Gee, Yang adduction stance".  The "Yang" referring to the acupuncture channels supposedly activated when standing in the stance.  But somewhere along the line the meaning was lost and replaced with "goat clamping."   Maybe because it was more colorful, more obvious, and more easily remembered! ;-)


Sounds like propaganda. How would Sergio know, did he travel back in time & witness the misinterpretation occur? It's not uncommon for this to happen when translating from one language to another, but to insist that it's common within an ethnic group is ridiculous. I think the Chinese are more than capable of understanding the nuances of their own language without foreigners insisting they are saying wrong.

These phrase goat stance is found in Hakka arts, Cantonese arts, Toisanese arts, Fujian arts, Shanghainese arts etc. All different dialects, hard to believe they all got it wrong without one passing on the "true" interpretation. If this logic were to hold true the knife position is then not correctly interpreted either. Instead of Character 2 Yin & Yang it would be something like Character 2 Shadow Goat, lol. Doesn't make sense, White Characters are generally a problem for non native speakers not aboriginal speakers. I don't know of any history of Caucasians studying WC in 1850's.


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## Juany118

Nobody Important said:


> Sounds like propaganda. How would Sergio know, did he travel back in time & witness the misinterpretation occur? It's not uncommon for this to happen when translating from one language to another, but to insist that it's common within an ethnic group is ridiculous. I think the Chinese are more than capable of understanding the nuances of their own language without foreigners insisting they are saying wrong.



I think you may be missing the point.  I only say this because my ex/now best friend was born in HK and speaks Cantonese and as soon as I saw this I called her.  I actually annoy her at times because in my schoole we do use some Mandarin and she says "that's not Chinese, that's Mandarin" lol.

Here is the thing.  The majority of people in China at the time WC was said to be developed were illiterate.  As such when you hear a term (he is correct that there can be two "tones" that sound the same and context makes the difference.)  In the Guangdong Province it is a tropical/subtropical climate so farming was THE thing during this period as well.  So here is the question.  If you have a largely illiterate population hearing something in their tonal language that can mean something related to farming or something related to philosophy what will they think?  Especially if the position itself relates to something related to farming?  

Now is this definitive?  No. According to Ms. Fung is it plausible?  Yes.


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## Nobody Important

Juany118 said:


> I think you may be missing the point.  I only say this because my ex/now best friend was born in HK and speaks Cantonese and as soon as I saw this I called her.  I actually annoy her at times because in my schoole we do use some Mandarin and she says "that's not Chinese, that's Mandarin" lol.
> 
> Here is the thing.  The majority of people in China at the time WC was said to be developed were illiterate.  As such when you hear a term (he is correct that there can be two "tones" that sound the same and context makes the difference.)  In the Guangdong Province it is a tropical/subtropical climate so farming was THE thing during this period as well.  So here is the question.  If you have a largely illiterate population hearing something in their tonal language that can mean something related to farming or something related to philosophy what will they think?  Especially if the position itself relates to something related to farming?
> 
> Now is this definitive?  No. According to Ms. Fung is it plausible?  Yes.


You're missing the point. I'm not saying it isn't plausible. But here's the litmus, no other branch or art calls it Yin Yang stance. So everyone misinterpreted it? Someone would have continued to call it by its "real" name. And in this case only occurred with Goat stance? I'm more apt to believe that it was simply named after the stance used to shear farm animals than it being based on medical theory.


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## Juany118

Nobody Important said:


> You're missing the point. I'm not saying it isn't plausible. But here's the litmus, no other branch or art calls it Yin Yang stance. So everyone misinterpreted it? Someone would have continued to call it by its "real" name. And in this case only occurred with Goat stance? I'm more apt to believe that it was simply named after the stance used to shear farm animals than it being based on medical theory.



my point was largely to say, due to the nature of Cantonese, we will never know.  History is filled with myths made fact later proven to be fiction and vice versa.  Gotta love the human mind


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## Nobody Important

Juany118 said:


> my point was largely to say, due to the nature of Cantonese, we will never know.  History is filled with myths made fact later proven to be fiction and vice versa.  Gotta love the human mind


I can agree, but when in doubt follow principle of Occam's Razor.


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## Juany118

Nobody Important said:


> I can agree, but when in doubt follow principle of Occam's Razor.




I am familiar with that concept definitely.  The problem I have is that I carry one thing home from work everyday, "It doesn't matter what I 'know', only what I can 'prove' " and if I can't prove it, it is in limbo.  Yes I drive my circle of friends nuts lol.


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## geezer

Nobody Important said:


> I can agree, but when in doubt follow principle of *Occam's *Razor.



Personally, I prefer _Bic_ disposables. Reasonably cheap and they last me for a couple of weeks before they get dull. Unless my wife finds them and uses them on her legs! 

Now regarding that goat business. I'm biased since a number of years back I posted similar pictures on a thread here. I even found a picture of somebody shearing and Angora Goat to satisfy any nitpickers who might point out that sheep and goats are different species. I have other reasons for supporting this _functional _explanation for the term _yee gee kim yeung ma.
_
First, way back in the 80's my old Chinese sifu also explained it this way, teaching us to us it to mount, control, and pound a fallen opponent when sparring. When doing this, onlookers in the class would all cheer, "ride that goat!".

....BTW sifu was college educated in Hong Kong, and was a real stickler on getting the Cantonese terms right. He often pointed out how poorly educated Cantonese speaking practitioners often made errors by misunderstanding similarly pronounced words. And _he _interpreted this as "goat riding stance" (yeung ma), _not_ as some interpretation of "yang"! Incidentally, he was Sergio's first teacher too. Really, I think Sergio is just looking for some more mystical interpretation to build his rep. Certainly it's nothing a pragmatist like GM Yip Man would have taught.

Secondly, it works even better IMO when applied standing to one side and turning, dropping your knee onto your fallen opponent's chest or neck as a _gwai ma _(kneeling stance). It works well when controlling your opponent's arm in an arm-bar while you press your hips forward, then droping your weight via your knee onto your opponent. Or you can pin him, pressing his arm across his face and delivering punches or elbows with the other arm. Either way, this stance can really cause pain, gives you great control, and allows you to disengage more easily than by straddling your opponent.

Finally, I'm a city boy and never sheared a sheep. But as a kid (pardon the pun), I'd help my grandfather during Spring roundup on his ranch. When roping and throwing the calves for branding we had to pin them with our knees from the side. Unlike my country-boy cousins, I sucked at riding and roping, but I did pretty well throwing and hog tying the calves, and pinning them with my knees. I looked at it as "wrestling practice", In retrospect, I think it was my first WC training!


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## anerlich

geezer said:


> I even found a picture of somebody shearing and Angora Goat to satisfy any nitpickers who might point out that sheep and goats are different species.



You've not heard of shoats and geep, then.


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## Vajramusti

anerlich said:


> You've not heard of shoats and geep, then.


--------------------------------------
geeps have high centers of gravity and can flip over.


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## anerlich

One thing which the William Cheung lineage does in SLT that I understand some other lineages do not has to do with the position of the "dead" hand, i.e. the one held beside the rib cage, not performing the technique.

We hold the hand a fist's distance out to the side of the body, elbow actively pulled back, stretching the pectoral muscle on that side, ostensibly opening up the lung. The "dead" hand is actually very much alive. The shoulder is not raised.

Since the breathing is ideally diaphragmatic, I am not totally sold on "opening the [upper] lung" being of huge value, though the posture would help to alleviate and reverse the kyphosis (upper spine and head bent forward), to which modern desk workers and Jiu Jitsu practitioners can be susceptible if corrective exercise is not undertaken.

Would be interested what others do here, and the reasons for those practices.


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## LFJ

KPM said:


> Have you guys seen Sergio's vid where he claims "goat clamping" was a misinterpretation?  If I remember the reasoning correctly.....the name for the stance was primarily passed down orally.  The Cantonese word for "goat" is very close to "yeung", which is the Cantonese equivalent of "yang"....as in "yin & yang."  So the real name for the stance is something like "character Gee, Yang adduction stance".  The "Yang" referring to the acupuncture channels supposedly activated when standing in the stance.  But somewhere along the line the meaning was lost and replaced with "goat clamping."   Maybe because it was more colorful, more obvious, and more easily remembered! ;-)



I'm copying and pasting my response to this from another forum:


"_...if there is ever any ambiguity due to tones one doesn't need to be shown the character, and be able to read it, to know which word is meant. It is a common thing to happen in the Chinese languages due to many homophones, but there is a very easy way around it simply by saying "yinyang de yang", that is "the yang from yinyang". 

I don't believe there is a single Chinese person unfamiliar with this word, especially practitioners of TCMA. Plus, where there is such possible ambiguity, a teacher would not just say a name of a stance and not explain what it means. So this explanation of confusing things due to ambiguity caused by tones and being unable to read, I'd say, is really not an explanation that makes sense to anyone fluent in the language with any amount of speaking experience. Words are clarified like this all the time in daily speech.

Besides that, "clamping" yang does NOT mean reinforcing or opening the yang channel. *Another meaning of the clamping character is to restrain or restrict. So it would mean you're restricting your yang energy in this stance*. This guy just doesn't understand Chinese!_"


So, how are _yang _meridians opened by "restricting _yang_ energy"?!!

This is obviously a non-native speaker trying to be clever and fit terminology to their bogus theory.


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## KPM

^^^  I've always thought Sergio's explanation sounded a little "hokey."  Never believed it myself.  But makes for an interesting perspective.


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## Marnetmar

I'd like Sergio if he just documented obscure WC lineages and shut up about literally everything else. I'm sure he's very skilled and better than I'll ever be, but he's still a total fruitcake.


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## geezer

anerlich said:


> One thing which the William Cheung lineage does  ...We hold the hand a fist's distance out to the side of the body, elbow actively pulled back, stretching the pectoral muscle on that side, ostensibly opening up the lung. The "dead" hand is actually very much alive. The shoulder is not raised..
> 
> ...Would be interested what others do here, and the reasons for those practices.



Well, as you already know (apparently having also having experience in LT's "WT" lineage) is that we too keep the chambered fist separated from the body by a couple of inches for similar reasons.

One thing that a medical doctor who was an EBMAS practitioner pointed out to me was that this "suspended elbow" helps "open the chest" (just as you said above) and helps balance out all the contracting pressure experienced when pulling the elbows inwards towards center during the tan sau and fook sau movements in the _saam pai fut _section.

This can also reduce the dreaded Wing Chun Slouch! You know the famous "Hunchback of Wing Chun"?


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## yak sao

Also, by relaxing the bicep and anterior deltoid as you pull back using the lat and posterior deltoid, etc. you are providing so9me training to those muscles and reinforcing the idea of which muscles are to be used within the various structures.

Another benefit  is  by pulling back and working the chambered arm in such a fashion while the opposite arm is doing something entirely different begins to train the body to do two different things on opposite sides, such as a simultaneous tan dar  or pak dar.


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## anerlich

geezer said:


> Well, as you already know (apparently having also having experience in LT's "WT" lineage) is that we too keep the chambered fist separated from the body by a couple of inches for similar reasons.
> 
> One thing that a medical doctor who was an EBMAS practitioner pointed out to me was that this "suspended elbow" helps "open the chest" (just as you said above) and helps balance out all the contracting pressure experienced when pulling the elbows inwards towards center during the tan sau and fook sau movements in the _saam pai fut _section.
> 
> This can also reduce the dreaded Wing Chun Slouch! You know the famous "Hunchback of Wing Chun"?



I haven't had any experience with WT, other than seeing a couple of demos and some vids. Not that that matters for this discussion, or at least this particular point thereof.

I agree with you on the "anti-contracting pressure" thing, but I don't try to actively force the elbow to the centre (not saying you do either, just some earlier discussions lead me to believe some people do). I keep it down and let it come in, following the fingers. There's the "elbow pressure" that some people get excited about, but it's mostly forward, not in. Too much inward pressure allows the elbow to be trapped and pushed across the centreline in my experience.

I agree about the hunchback thing to a degree, and I can tell you a lot of guard players in BJJ have it much worse. Especially if their job involves sitting at a desk.

One problem I see with many people first starting to spar is more the opposite - the have their chest stuck out and chin up, trying to "see" over the top of their arms which are held too far out, chasing hands and not allowing the elbows to protect the torso. Great way to get knocked out or punched in the liver or floating ribs.



yak sao said:


> Also, by relaxing the bicep and anterior deltoid as you pull back using the lat and posterior deltoid, etc. you are providing so9me training to those muscles and reinforcing the idea of which muscles are to be used within the various structures.
> 
> Another benefit  is  by pulling back and working the chambered arm in such a fashion while the opposite arm is doing something entirely different begins to train the body to do two different things on opposite sides, such as a simultaneous tan dar  or pak dar.



I agree the two hands doing different things in important, but I see SLT as mostly - mostly - a one hand at a time affair. One hand goes out, pulls back. Then the other hand goes out, pulls back.


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## anerlich

Marnetmar said:


> I'd like Sergio if he just documented obscure WC lineages and shut up about literally everything else. I'm sure he's very skilled and better than I'll ever be, but he's still a total fruitcake.



I know what you mean, but I am glad he's out there doing that stuff all the same. And there are way bigger Wing Chun fruitcakes than him (hint: starts with an H...)


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## Marnetmar

anerlich said:


> And there are way bigger Wing Chun fruitcakes than him (hint: starts with an H...)



Where do you think Sergio gets his material from?


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