# Master / Student Relationship, and Honest Discussions



## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 17, 2016)

In your opinion, does the Master / Student relationship preclude honest discussions? For instance, if you were thinking that a certain aspect of the curriculum wasn't your cup of tea, would you feel able to discuss it with the Master, or would you look elsewhere without discussing it?


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## drop bear (Oct 17, 2016)

Yes mostly.

But it is pretty well accepted in our gym that everyone has flaws.


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## Blindside (Oct 17, 2016)

Me handing in a 5 page thesis on all the things we as a school could do better and various suggested remedies caused my black belt test to lengthen considerably but resulted in good discussion. Some of those practices were even changed eventually.

I have never had an instructor that I didn't think I could talk to adult to adult.


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## Ademadis (Oct 18, 2016)

If I've got a problem I'm sure I can always talk to my sensei about it in the open and everything's fine.
He's a good teacher and friend foremost, master second.


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## Justin Chang (Oct 18, 2016)

My teacher actively asks us to question everything he is teaching, to offer possible other ways of doing things, to learn from each other.  If he believes his way is better he tells us why and allows us to make our own decisions on what works best for us.


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## Buka (Oct 18, 2016)

I think it depends. If the student's been training for a year, well, you know how that's going to go. All I want to hear from a wet behind the ears rookie is, "Yes, sir or  No, sir."

If it's a senior student, there's probably a certain respect that's been earned, and will be listened to. But it could also depend on what the "not your cup of tea" concerns. An extreme example would be - it's a Kyokushin dojo and the student suggests "We should be be doing some Drunken Monkey Kung Fu". Or vice versa. (hey, I said it was an extreme example) Yeaaaah, that's not going to be listened to. Psychiatric treatment might actually be in order.

I've had students make suggestions or requests that were implemented, sometimes after class for extra work, at first. They were good ideas. I've also had instructors, who were world class, and wouldn't, nor should they for any reason, ever entertain such things. So, it kind of depends.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 18, 2016)

Buka said:


> I think it depends. If the student's been training for a year, well, you know how that's going to go. All I want to hear from a wet behind the ears rookie is, "Yes, sir or  No, sir."
> 
> If it's a senior student, there's probably a certain respect that's been earned, and will be listened to. But it could also depend on what the "not your cup of tea" concerns. An extreme example would be - it's a Kyokushin dojo and the student suggests "We should be be doing some Drunken Monkey Kung Fu". Or vice versa. (hey, I said it was an extreme example) Yeaaaah, that's not going to be listened to. Psychiatric treatment might actually be in order.
> 
> I've had students make suggestions or requests that were implemented, sometimes after class for extra work, at first. They were good ideas. I've also had instructors, who were world class, and wouldn't, nor should they for any reason, ever entertain such things. So, it kind of depends.



This.
How could I know someone for years and not be able to talk to them about our common interests?


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## marques (Oct 18, 2016)

About my first and most important school so far: We could discuss everything, at least senior students (furthermore some things were voted by instructors), but the effect was little to none.  At the moment the issue was the standardisation of many academies, not more changes.

On the other hand, senior students were free to specialise in some area (according to the background, body type, abilities or limitations...) and add whatever they find useful in their own 'toolbox'.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 18, 2016)

Justin Chang said:


> My teacher actively asks us to question everything he is teaching, to offer possible other ways of doing things, to learn from each other.  If he believes his way is better he tells us why and allows us to make our own decisions on what works best for us.



I would approach this on a case by case basis. In some instances students may have sufficient insight into knowing what will work best. In others, not so much.  When I have students helping other students I tell them to teach the way I taught them. If they think they have a better way they should talk to me about it and we can evaluate the idea.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 18, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> In your opinion, does the Master / Student relationship preclude honest discussions? For instance, if you were thinking that a certain aspect of the curriculum wasn't your cup of tea, would you feel able to discuss it with the Master, or would you look elsewhere without discussing it?



If there is something you need to speak to the Master / instructor about and the relationship precludes such discussion I think you need to find another place to train. HOWEVER, there is a time and place for certain discussions and in some cases a request should be made for a private conversation. Further, don't waste time on trivialities.  "Do you like my haircut." 

Some time ago a poster had an issue with a pattern.   I indicated that according to the text of the person who developed the pattern there was an error in what he was doing which contributed to the issues he was having. I suggested that he ask his instructor concerning the discrepancy. (It was clear he had trained for a while and I did not feel the need to suggest that he might need to do this in private. ) His was highly irritated that I would "question his instructor."    So, "opinions vary" - Dalton


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## Justin Chang (Oct 18, 2016)

Earl Weiss said:


> I would approach this on a case by case basis. In some instances students may have sufficient insight into knowing what will work best. In others, not so much.  When I have students helping other students I tell them to teach the way I taught them. If they think they have a better way they should talk to me about it and we can evaluate the idea.


Ours is a group of people who come together to learn, most of the participants are advanced martial artists and most are instructors in various arts as well.  Our teacher will be going over a technique or a principle and as we are practicing it someone might add something to make it more effective from their art, or someone may decide that a certain aspect of it doesn't work as well for their body type so they modify it, usually we discuss the variations and it is a wonderful learning experience for all involved.  There is no one right or wrong way of doing a technique as long as it works for the individual.  Ours is more of a collective of Martial Artist who wish to learn and share their knowledge, it is ever evolving, ever changing.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 18, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> In your opinion, does the Master / Student relationship preclude honest discussions? For instance, if you were thinking that a certain aspect of the curriculum wasn't your cup of tea, would you feel able to discuss it with the Master, or would you look elsewhere without discussing it?




I don't like that distinction, never have.  "Master" is such a poor choice of term when looking at what we do.

As the owner / instructor I am here to serve my clients, not the other way around.  I offer a service to them, and it is my job to make sure that service matches up with the needs of my client.  If I am not serving my students properly they won't be my students for very long.  

If a instructor tries to take the roll of "master" and starts thinking his clients are there to serve him instead of the other way around things get weird.  

If you have comments or questions about what you are being taught and the service your instructor is providing you, bring them up.  Do so in a respectful way obviously, and keep in mind that you are one person.  The service is not there to address just you, but to best address the needs of the students as a whole.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 18, 2016)

Buka said:


> ,,,, But it could also depend on what the "not your cup of tea" concerns. ,.



I'm thinking of things like "too much sparring",  "too much time on fitness" , "too much one steps"...or not enough for any of these, all depending on the student.

I'm not thinking of right vs wrong, just different preferences.

I see students move schools, but don't feel that they can explain it.  They may say, "I'm taking a break" then go to a different school.  It's counter-productive from a business perspective, but it seems that students can be discouraged by the master/student relationship to talk honestly abut what they dislike or would otherwise prefer.

I tried to leave my opening post general, to get your thoughts.  Thanks!


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## Buka (Oct 18, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I'm thinking of things like "too much sparring",  "too much time on fitness" , "too much one steps"...or not enough for any of these, all depending on the student.
> 
> I'm not thinking of right vs wrong, just different preferences.
> 
> ...



I've had a couple of students in the past (different times) who thought we sparred too much, and was thinking of different places to train. So I gave them a list of the places I thought they'd enjoy the most, told them I'd call if they wanted me too. (One did, one didn't) They both spoke to me a couple months later, said they loved where they were training, (different places for each guy) but there wasn't enough sparring. So I made them a deal - just keep training there and come on down on sparring nights here, no charge, everyone knows you and misses you. Worked all out around, easy, peasy, Japanesey.

I've had dozens of students over the years who loved to train, but were having trouble keeping up with ours. Bought a lot of them to different placed myself, Senseis I knew. Sent the others when I didn't have time to go myself, due to scheduling. All worked out great, still friends to this day, some are still training. 

I used to have other Martial Artists come down to do a semi-seminar, teach a typical class from their style of Martial Art. Wanted my students to experience as much as they could, wanted them to know there were other places, quality places, that they could go to. 

Any time an instructor I knew, and a couple times with instructors I didn't know, lost their school, I let them use my dojo in any off class time to retain their students until they found another place. No charge, with the caveat that if one of my students wanted to take their class, he could. Always worked out terrific. Never had one single problem. A couple of my students ended up going with them and a couple of their students ended up coming with us. Everybody won.

Any time a former student of mine wanted to come down on sparring nights he was welcomed with open arms. Always worked out great. A lot of times people who were now training something else, wanted to see how well they could utilize it against people they used to spar with. It always worked out well, made for some great times. Not much really changed, because the people they used to spar with had progressed as well. Style never really seemed to have an effect one way of the other.

I've also had a couple of senior students who became so proficient in our style, especially the fighting aspect of it, I had to convince them to move on to something that would help them more, either one of my teachers, or someone who taught something that could challenge them. Both were exceptional men/students/fighters/athletes. They remain some of my closest friends to this day. 

I'll listen to a student's suggestions......to a point. Again, if he's green, shut up and train, kid, before I make you do push-ups until you pee.


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## TrueJim (Oct 19, 2016)

At our school, the head of the school use to have weekly meetings with the instructors. Each meeting would have a topic, and you'd have to prepare a presentation ahead of time on the topic: "how to deal with problem students", or "how to better run an open house". I think the goal was twofold: to get some new ideas for this school, and to get us thinking about how we'd run our own school if we had one. (At least one of our instructors aspires to that.) The meetings petered-out because people just kept getting too busy, but it was a great practice while we were doing it.

We suggested a lot of good ideas at those meetings, but generally speaking most ideas didn't wind up getting implemented because there's just so much inertia to the organization (it's a big school). The head of our school is very open to new ideas in general, but if they require much additional work...well, people are already busy.

*Here's an example of a "free advertising" idea that I had: *

A lot of public school PTAs raise money for the school by selling spirit-wear tee-shirts. So the PTA has an incentive to want to make spirit-wear more desirable, so that more parents buy spirit-wear for their children. Some PTAs will even work out small deals with local businesses to make the spirit-wear more desirable, like "free sprinkles at the ice cream shop if you wear your spirit-wear." The PTA advertises these deals as a way to get more parents to buy spirit-wear.

So here's my idea: a monthly _spirit-wear day_ at the dojang. On spirit-wear day, if you wear a spirit-wear tee as your top, you can to line-up in the front of the class. So instead of lining up black-to-white belts, the students wearing spirit-wear get to line up at the front of the class. What does this get for the dojang? Well for one thing, kids at their schools talking about your dojang ("yah, I'm wearing my tee today so that I can line-up at the front of my taekwondo class"); but also, the PTA repeatedly mentioning your dojang to parents as a local business that supports the school. Free advertising!


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 19, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> I don't like that distinction, never have.  "Master" is such a poor choice of term when looking at what we do.
> 
> As the owner / instructor I am here to serve my clients, not the other way around.  I offer a service to them, and it is my job to make sure that service matches up with the needs of my client.  If I am not serving my students properly they won't be my students for very long.
> 
> ...



The term "Master' can be used in the manner of "Master - Servant" relationship.    That is not the intent or meaning when it comes to MA although deference is shown to those who are senior in age or rank. 
The term as used in MA is that used in a craft or art.  It is Master craftsman or Artisan.   Those whom the Master teaches are students or apprentices, not servants or slaves.


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## jks9199 (Oct 19, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> In your opinion, does the Master / Student relationship preclude honest discussions? For instance, if you were thinking that a certain aspect of the curriculum wasn't your cup of tea, would you feel able to discuss it with the Master, or would you look elsewhere without discussing it?


Depends on the particular relationship.  For those who put their martial arts teacher on some sort of pedestal, the "Wise Sensei who knows all" type of relationship?  Yeah, you won't have a frank discussion.  But if you're relationship is, well, let's say healthier, nah...  unless the "master" is so stiff and unrelenting that there's no room for discussion.  Which is a different problem...

Something I've noticed (and I'm far from alone!)... we have a bit of tendency in the West to imbue the role of martial arts "Master" with a lot of heavy crap about the Master knowing all, being some sort of superior, wiser person.  I think it goes back to shows like Kung Fu, and the whole idea of Shaolin Warrior Priests, and somehow shifted from the sensei being simply a teacher and coach.  Doesn't mean you can't learn other things, that he (or she) isn't wise or doesn't have good advice... but it's not merely because of his martial arts training.  I've learned a lot of non MA things from my teacher -- but not because he is a truly great martial artist.  He's also a great person -- who has had a lot of life experience and shares that.  He's got a gift for dealing with people -- and I've learned from him.  (I hope...)  But, in the end, y'know... he's still just a man.  He never presented himself as being anything more, either...  And I hope I don't give my students a false image...


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## chrispillertkd (Oct 19, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> In your opinion, does the Master / Student relationship preclude honest discussions?



Not at all. But we should remember that having an honest discussion in no way means not being courteous to who you're talking to and treating them with the respect they deserve as your teacher (if you're a student), nor does it mean belittling them if you disagree with what they say (if you're an instructor). Some people tend to equate having an "honest" discussion with being argumentative or "telling it like it is!" But in my experience that kind of behavior isn't conducive to having an honest discussion in the first place since it tends to make people shut down dialogue as quickly as possible.

Part of training in the martial arts is to cultivate a certain amount of decorum. I've found that goes a long way with being able to talk to people in general, and not just your MA instructor.

Pax,

Chris


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## Andrew Green (Oct 20, 2016)

Earl Weiss said:


> The term "Master' can be used in the manner of "Master - Servant" relationship.    That is not the intent or meaning when it comes to MA although deference is shown to those who are senior in age or rank.
> The term as used in MA is that used in a craft or art.  It is Master craftsman or Artisan.   Those whom the Master teaches are students or apprentices, not servants or slaves.



In contexts like that it is used as a certification, not a title.  I don't think Chess players would do a "Yes Grandmaster" when talking to a high level chess player, or that a carpentry apprentice would refer to someone as "master".   Same as in education, if you get a masters degree at a University people aren't going to start calling you "Master Earl".


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 20, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> In contexts like that it is used as a certification, not a title.  I don't think Chess players would do a "Yes Grandmaster" when talking to a high level chess player, or that a carpentry apprentice would refer to someone as "master".   Same as in education, if you get a masters degree at a University people aren't going to start calling you "Master Earl".



No, in education the "Master" Degree means little. However, the term "Doctor" is widely used in educational circles.  Actulay tends to grate on me  since I have a Doctorate but would never use the tiltle unless some self absorbed educator corrects me and has me cal them "Doctor Smith" and I will then invite them to address me in a similar fashion. The term "Maestro" is also widely used in some cultures.


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## msmitht (Oct 21, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> In your opinion, does the Master / Student relationship preclude honest discussions? For instance, if you were thinking that a certain aspect of the curriculum wasn't your cup of tea, would you feel able to discuss it with the Master, or would you look elsewhere without discussing it?


If you cannot have an honest discussion with them then you should be looking elsewhere for instruction. If you have a problem with a certain part of the curriculum and you should be looking elsewhere for instruction, possibly In a different style. Asking Your instructor to change the curriculum just for you or to allow you to Omit certain part of training will change your overall EXPERIENCE. It can and will also lead to others doing the same. I've had many students tell me they do not wish to spar in my TKD program. The rules say that they have to spar at exams after green belt so they can get the green but that's it. If the student only wants to fight and not do forms or SD then they will not advance, ever.
In BJJ that would be like asking to not spar. Lol. Rotflol! You would be welcome to attend but a white belt you will be forever.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 22, 2016)

msmitht said:


> ..................... I've had many students tell me they do not wish to spar in my TKD program. The rules say that they have to spar at exams after green belt so they can get the green but that's it. ........................



I've told students this is like learning to swim without getting wet.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 22, 2016)

msmitht said:


> If you cannot have an honest discussion with them then you should be looking elsewhere for instruction.



For example, I think our "warmups" of 20-30 minutes of a 60 minute class are too long.  My viewpoint is that I can do my own jogging, pushups, situps etc, and would rather focus on tkd.  With that said, I imagine a lot of parents get their kids to join tkd for exercise.  I'm tempted to mention my viewpoint, but I have held off. I'm not sure how the discussion would go.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> For example, I think our "warmups" of 20-30 minutes of a 60 minute class are too long.  My viewpoint is that I can do my own jogging, pushups, situps etc, and would rather focus on tkd.  With that said, I imagine a lot of parents get their kids to join tkd for exercise.  I'm tempted to mention my viewpoint, but I have held off. I'm not sure how the discussion would go.



As an instructor, I will say that I hate spending 20-30 minutes on warmups and fitness, rather than TKD.
Here's what I tell students. The more time they spend on this stuff at home, the less we will spend on it in class.
The beginners class tends to spend less time on their own, so more time in class. The more advanced students have will do more on their own, so we spend less time in class. Maybe 5 minutes and then do some forms for warmups.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 22, 2016)

Agreed, you can't please everyone so you try to please most. My thinking of the thread was that I think some people tend to just leave a school without saying why, for fear of offending.  In my mind, the school then loses out on the honest (but respectful) feedback to would either lead to changes or ate least understanding of the reason the person left.


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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> For example, I think our "warmups" of 20-30 minutes of a 60 minute class are too long.  My viewpoint is that I can do my own jogging, pushups, situps etc, and would rather focus on tkd.  With that said, I imagine a lot of parents get their kids to join tkd for exercise.  I'm tempted to mention my viewpoint, but I have held off. I'm not sure how the discussion would go.



The fitness isnt going to get done on their own or wont get done well and you will wind up with crap tkders.

Being unfit impacts on the rest of your training. You cant drill as long.  You cant spar as long and your technique goes south more quickly.

And being good is about time spent doing quality training. Not time spent having rests.

I would not leave the fitness up to the fighter if i was serious about putting them in harms way.

Oh and half an hour conditioning then an hour class. 

And look you could test this set up a group to come in and do conditioning off their own bat before class.  If nobody turns up then you get an indication of what they are actually doing on their own time.


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## Leo89 (Oct 26, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> In your opinion, does the Master / Student relationship preclude honest discussions? For instance, if you were thinking that a certain aspect of the curriculum wasn't your cup of tea, would you feel able to discuss it with the Master, or would you look elsewhere without discussing it?


I'm honest with them about my knee problem, and they let you test when you are ready, which gives me time to fully master the Kiban form set, while stretching and working out. 

But I feel like they could teach us more about grabs/throws. 

He doesn't sell the student handbook, but I love the school I attend. 

No 10 yr old black belts, no forcing to test early, so I don't really have much to complain about.


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## Leo89 (Nov 5, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> In your opinion, does the Master / Student relationship preclude honest discussions? For instance, if you were thinking that a certain aspect of the curriculum wasn't your cup of tea, would you feel able to discuss it with the Master, or would you look elsewhere without discussing it?


I feel that I can not openly discuss things with my master. 

He teaches taekwondo as karate would be taught, but he teaches us nothing of form applications, nothing about KKeokgi, Neomgigi, Ppaegi, and it ticks me off, but I feel a calling from taekwondo. 

As if someone, or many, must restore this mixed martial art, someone to give it salvation from its poor reputation. 

So I won't give up on taekwondo, I plan to fully master it, even if it means joining the south Korean military and living in South Korea for a while.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 6, 2016)

drop bear said:


> The fitness isnt going to get done on their own or wont get done well and you will wind up with crap tkders.
> Being unfit impacts on the rest of your training. You cant drill as long.  You cant spar as long and your technique goes south more quickly.
> And being good is about time spent doing quality training. Not time spent having rests.
> I would not leave the fitness up to the fighter if i was serious about putting them in harms way.
> ...



Herein lies the need to refine the discussion. There is conditioning and there is conditioning. Cardio, Strength, Flexibility. Few have the luxery of spending a half hour on each, every class. That is 90 minute before you spent a second on learning or practicing a skill. To some extent you can combine them.  A few minutes of each such as running, Stretching and weight bearing exercises then use then again as part of the drills.   While you may improve the condition of students if you spend 10 minutes on each every class, the improvement will be nominal.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 6, 2016)

Earl Weiss said:


> I've told students this is like learning to swim without getting wet.


I would look at it like a guy who wants to jog without entering a race.  The goals of the person would likely be to have some exercise, fun, maybe get out of the house and meet people, etc.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 7, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I would look at it like a guy who wants to jog without entering a race.  The goals of the person would likely be to have some exercise, fun, maybe get out of the house and meet people, etc.



The guy can also tell his friends "I do MA" and have them think he's tough, perhaps also think that of himself, Something he would not be able to do if the hobby was  jogging.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 7, 2016)

Earl Weiss said:


> *The guy can also tell his friends "I do MA" and have them think he's tough, perhaps also think that of himself,* Something he would not be able to do if the hobby was  jogging.



Tell me it isn't so!


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 7, 2016)

Earl Weiss said:


> The guy can also tell his friends "I do MA" and have them think he's tough, perhaps also think that of himself, Something he would not be able to do if the hobby was  jogging.


True, I go to the UFC gym, and by the sounds of it, someone may think that it's a hardcore gym like on The Ultimate Fighter.  The reality is I am not allowed to punch mitts with someone other than the coach.

In any event, I did chose my words carefully.  No one calls it "jogging" anymore, people say they are into "running".  They may say they "ran" 5 km in 35 minutes, but that is not really "running".

Personally, I like jogging.  I also dislike sparring, since I often can't trust the other person.  I told my instructor no more sparring for me, after one night of first "no contact" sparring, with no protection, where I was giving opportunities to a 13 year kid and he back kicked me hard, leading to pain for 3 weeks.  Then later that night, in light contact sparring with a hogu but no head protection, a 2nd dan woman kicked me in the head.  WTF, it's not worth it.

PS: I was thinking of saying to the GJN that I think it is a bad idea to do sparring without equipment, but I didn't think I should say voice my opinion. So I only voiced my conclusion.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 7, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> PS: I was thinking of saying to the GJN that I think it is a bad idea to do sparring without equipment, but I didn't think I should say voice my opinion. So I only voiced my conclusion.



It may vary by country and state buy my liability insurance carrier requires it.. Professional fighters fight in a padded ring for a reason. If they go down hard and the head slams into the floor, the padded floor protects them . Few MA gyms have this type of floor and even amateur boxing requires headgear.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> For example, I think our "warmups" of 20-30 minutes of a 60 minute class are too long.  My viewpoint is that I can do my own jogging, pushups, situps etc, and would rather focus on tkd.  With that said, I imagine a lot of parents get their kids to join tkd for exercise.  I'm tempted to mention my viewpoint, but I have held off. I'm not sure how the discussion would go.


1/3 to 1/2 of class on warm-up? That seems a little (very little) bit excessive. It should be possible to get reasonably warmed-up within 15-20 minutes. Hard to shorten it more than that - that's why I opted for 90 minute classes. I'd rather spend 15-20 minutes warming up, then have a bit more than an hour left. When I did 60-minute classes, I made it clear that students were to show up already warmed up, so we could abbreviate that segment of class.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2016)

Leo89 said:


> I feel that I can not openly discuss things with my master.
> 
> He teaches taekwondo as karate would be taught, but he teaches us nothing of form applications, nothing about KKeokgi, Neomgigi, Ppaegi, and it ticks me off, but I feel a calling from taekwondo.
> 
> ...


I'll say this: if you can't discuss things with your master, once you've established yourself as a serious student who understands the art a bit, there may be something wrong. It's fine if the instructor says, "It's my decision, and it stays this way," but they shouldn't get bent out of shape just because you wanted to share your opinion.


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## WaterGal (Nov 8, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> 1/3 to 1/2 of class on warm-up? That seems a little (very little) bit excessive. It should be possible to get reasonably warmed-up within 15-20 minutes. Hard to shorten it more than that - that's why I opted for 90 minute classes. I'd rather spend 15-20 minutes warming up, then have a bit more than an hour left. When I did 60-minute classes, I made it clear that students were to show up already warmed up, so we could abbreviate that segment of class.



Agreed, plus..... there's a reason that cardio-kickboxing is a common gym class - doing a lot of kicking and punching can be a good workout in itself.  So you could, for example, have your students do some jumping jacks, squats, & crunches and dynamic stretching for 10-15 minutes, and then have them practice kicking and punching in the air for a while while doing different footwork, grab some pads and practice with a partner, do some ladder drills, and then cool down doing your forms.  That'll only do so much for building muscle, but if you keep them moving, you should be able to get them sweating and work their cardio.


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## Balrog (Dec 8, 2016)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> In your opinion, does the Master / Student relationship preclude honest discussions? For instance, if you were thinking that a certain aspect of the curriculum wasn't your cup of tea, would you feel able to discuss it with the Master, or would you look elsewhere without discussing it?


There isn't anything that I would NOT talk to my instructor about.  And I hope my students feel the same about me.


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## JR 137 (Dec 9, 2016)

You should be able to ask your instructor questions.  You should be able to voice your concerns.  There's a caveat however.  This should be done at the right place and time.

Questions or concerns about how the class is run or why something's in the syllabus or not in the syllabus should be addressed outside of class and in a one on one setting.  Asking "why are we spending 30 minutes on warmup" during warmup puts him/her on the spot.  Asking "why are we learning this, it'll never work" during the drill won't and shouldn't go over well.

Asking during a one on one conversation should get you honest answers.  They may not be the answers you want to hear, but they should be honest.  Your teacher owes you that, because he/she is your teacher.  IMO a teacher owes it to his/her students to teach/explain the why and why not.

A teacher doesn't owe the student a custom curriculum, unless that's part of the agreement.  I joined my dojo because Seido karate is being taught there.  My teacher doesn't owe it to me to teach me BJJ submissions, Escrima tactics, nor ninja star throwing and disappearing acts.  He owes me the Seido syllabus in and a proper progression and in a reasonably safe environment, and the way he teaches it and nothing else.

If I appropriate ask why, I should get an appropriate answer.  If I can't accept his appropriate answer, I should find another place.


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2016)

TrueJim said:


> At our school, the head of the school use to have weekly meetings with the instructors. Each meeting would have a topic, and you'd have to prepare a presentation ahead of time on the topic: "how to deal with problem students", or "how to better run an open house". I think the goal was twofold: to get some new ideas for this school, and to get us thinking about how we'd run our own school if we had one. (At least one of our instructors aspires to that.) The meetings petered-out because people just kept getting too busy, but it was a great practice while we were doing it.
> 
> We suggested a lot of good ideas at those meetings, but generally speaking most ideas didn't wind up getting implemented because there's just so much inertia to the organization (it's a big school). The head of our school is very open to new ideas in general, but if they require much additional work...well, people are already busy.
> 
> ...



Sorry, just read this and have no idea what 'spirit wear' is? Is it a company?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 9, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> You should be able to ask your instructor questions.  You should be able to voice your concerns.  There's a caveat however.  This should be done at the right place and time.
> 
> Questions or concerns about how the class is run or why something's in the syllabus or not in the syllabus should be addressed outside of class and in a one on one setting.  Asking "why are we spending 30 minutes on warmup" during warmup puts him/her on the spot.  Asking "why are we learning this, it'll never work" during the drill won't and shouldn't go over well.
> 
> ...


It depends upon the question, and how it is asked. One of my favorite students commonly asks questions about the effectiveness and/or reasons behind doing things. I love it, because I know I'll never put something in front of him without being able to explain why it is useful. I keep classes pretty informal, and have made it clear I have no problem with his questions. He is always respectful, and just wants to understand and make sure he knows the reasoning behind the art.

I mention this because his first few questions would probably have gotten him stern looks from some instructors, because they seemed like a challenge to the effectiveness of the techniques. I gave him some leeway early, because I believed him to be earnest in his questions.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 9, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Sorry, just read this and have no idea what 'spirit wear' is? Is it a company?


That would probably refer to wearing school-themed shirts, etc.


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## JR 137 (Dec 9, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It depends upon the question, and how it is asked. One of my favorite students commonly asks questions about the effectiveness and/or reasons behind doing things. I love it, because I know I'll never put something in front of him without being able to explain why it is useful. I keep classes pretty informal, and have made it clear I have no problem with his questions. He is always respectful, and just wants to understand and make sure he knows the reasoning behind the art.
> 
> I mention this because his first few questions would probably have gotten him stern looks from some instructors, because they seemed like a challenge to the effectiveness of the techniques. I gave him some leeway early, because I believed him to be earnest in his questions.



Just like in comedy, it's all in the delivery.  I didn't mean to imply it's never ok to ask why during class. 

If one student has a question or even some doubts, chances are pretty good others do too.  Asking questions helps everyone, even the teacher.  So long as they're asked in the appropriate way at the appropriate time.  

But erring on the side of caution, it's best to ask afterward if you have strong opinions that have been building up for quite some time and are contemplating leaving because of the disagreement with what's being taught and/or done.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 9, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Just like in comedy, it's all in the delivery.  I didn't mean to imply it's never ok to ask why during class.
> 
> If one student has a question or even some doubts, chances are pretty good others do too.  Asking questions helps everyone, even the teacher.  So long as they're asked in the appropriate way at the appropriate time.
> 
> But erring on the side of caution, it's best to ask afterward if you have strong opinions that have been building up for quite some time and are contemplating leaving because of the disagreement with what's being taught and/or done.


Agreed. My comments are more for the other instructors who may read this. I've known some who would use a withering glare to shut down questions like the first few I received, and others who would have dismissed them for later to keep the class on track. They sounded like challenges. I'm honestly not sure why I handled them the way I did - perhaps I'd figured out the student a bit by then, because what could have been a "challenge question" from someone else just came across as this student wanting to understand. I'm glad he asks those questions (though he now seems to apologize every time he asks one), to give other students and observers a model that it's okay to ask pretty much anything if it's asked with curiosity and respect.

It was a lesson for me.


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## TrueJim (Dec 9, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> That would probably refer to wearing school-themed shirts, etc.



Like...tee-shirts or ball caps or whatever with the name of your kid's school on them, to show "school spirit". The PTA usually sells school spirit wear as a way to raise money for the PTA. Some small businesses help promote the PTA's fund-raising efforts by giving additional incentives for wearing spirit-wear (like, "free sprinkles on your ice cream if you're wearing your school's spirit wear!"). That also helps the small business because then the PTA promotes the incentives in order to sell more spirit-wear ("Buy our spirit wear, and get free sprinkles at Pop's Ice Cream Parlor!").


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