# Is Wushu detrimental to CMA?



## jdinca (Dec 23, 2005)

Not trying to upset, flame or troll here. I was listening to a discussion the other day between some very senior martial arts folks with many decades of experience amongst them. Part of it involved Wushu and its effects on CMA in general. We know that Wushu came about a few decades ago when the Chinese realized that Kung Fu was now being done all over the world and, in many cases better than the Chinese were doing it. Wushu was an attempt to get them back on top. Now we have this flashy, very acrobatic style that doesn't really involve self defense nearly as much as it involves gymnastics.

The problem? People are figuring out the basic premise that Wushu is not about self defense, it's about appearance. The comment was made in this discussion that the Chinese are realizing that they've got a problem on there hands, with the speculation that they may start turning back to the traditional styles.

Thoughts? Opinions? Could this be true? Could traditional Kung Fu be the winner, or could this signal an even bigger decline of CMA in favor of MMA or other modern styles?


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## still learning (Dec 23, 2005)

Hello, It is all about money and prestige.  Real fighting is the proven grounds for all martial arts.  

Anyone can make claims on how good their martial art is.  Real fighing will always be the proven area for your art. Todays laws can put us in jail for a long time too!

Those that argue ....is this how a martial artist is to act?  Who cares if your stone is bigger?   ....................Aloha


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## mantis (Dec 23, 2005)

jdinca said:
			
		

> Not trying to upset, flame or troll here. I was listening to a discussion the other day between some very senior martial arts folks with many decades of experience amongst them. Part of it involved Wushu and its effects on CMA in general. We know that Wushu came about a few decades ago when the Chinese realized that Kung Fu was now being done all over the world and, in many cases better than the Chinese were doing it. Wushu was an attempt to get them back on top. Now we have this flashy, very acrobatic style that doesn't really involve self defense nearly as much as it involves gymnastics.
> 
> The problem? People are figuring out the basic premise that Wushu is not about self defense, it's about appearance. The comment was made in this discussion that the Chinese are realizing that they've got a problem on there hands, with the speculation that they may start turning back to the traditional styles.
> 
> Thoughts? Opinions? Could this be true? Could traditional Kung Fu be the winner, or could this signal an even bigger decline of CMA in favor of MMA or other modern styles?


with all due respect to yourself i think you are (or people at that discussion are) being a little unfair by mixing contemporary wushu with traditional wushu!
btw, even tho those experienced masters that teach contemporary wushu in china as a sport or an art they do still preserve the full traditional applicable wushu by teaching it to special students (but outside governmental-sponsored programs and schools)
the masters are aware of the importance of not letting wushu become a "sport" or a demo art solely although they cannot teach the traditional wushu at those schools due to restrictions imposed by the chinese government.  the way i see it is governments and dynasties can go, but chinese culture, and good kung fu (or wushu) will not go!

and yes, that contemporary wushu is "sometimes" (to be fair) only for show (judging from looking at their pray mantis style) and cannot really be applicable in a real fight, or it's more like a sport (something like some TKD styles look like)


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## clfsean (Dec 23, 2005)

You can't have wushu without kungfu... it just can't happen.

The modern show stuff has its place, but just like TKD a sport, it has roots in viable self defense. Modern wushu has its roots in viable self defense.


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## jdinca (Dec 23, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> with all due respect to yourself i think you are (or people at that discussion are) being a little unfair by mixing contemporary wushu with traditional wushu!
> btw, even tho those experienced masters that teach contemporary wushu in china as a sport or an art they do still preserve the full traditional applicable wushu by teaching it to special students (but outside governmental-sponsored programs and schools)
> the masters are aware of the importance of not letting wushu become a "sport" or a demo art solely although they cannot teach the traditional wushu at those schools due to restrictions imposed by the chinese government. the way i see it is governments and dynasties can go, but chinese culture, and good kung fu (or wushu) will not go!
> 
> and yes, that contemporary wushu is "sometimes" (to be fair) only for show (judging from looking at their pray mantis style) and cannot really be applicable in a real fight, or it's more like a sport (something like some TKD styles look like)


 
No intention of being unfair at all. Trying to learn and initiate discussion. I should have stated contemporary wushu. 

It's nice to know that there are those still teaching traditional wushu but it appears from your post that it is an exception rather than the rule. What the world sees is the contemporary, flashy stuff. That's what's being incorporated into other more "traditional" kung fu systems, i.e. their mantis forms.

TKD is now part of the Olympics, as is judo. Wushu was destined to be an exhibition sport in the 2008 games. Now, the President of the NOAA has said that wushu isn't and will not be an Olympic sport in the forseeable future (at least not until after 2012) as it is not a sport(paraphrasing). The Chinese government is suitably unhappy, especially given some of the events that are considered "sports".

Although my school is a chinese kenpo school, we do teach kung fu forms for competition and expanding our knowledge base. One of our BB's has trained in China and is on the US national wushu team. He also teaches a one hour, once a week wushu class for the kids special squad, so I have no grudge against wushu, at all. I do see a general "dissing" of wushu appearing in conversations about CMA, except for those that practice it or have incorporated it into their system. These negative comments revolve around this very discussion, what the general MA population is seeing as wushu, is the comtemporary flowery aspect, not a system that revolves around the "arts of war". What impact is this having on CMA, in general? Is it good or bad?

I do hope that traditional wushu survives, as I hope all traditional systems do. I enjoy learning something that was brought into existence centuries ago. It's fun, healthy and a great insight into an ancient culture.


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## mantis (Dec 23, 2005)

like i said the masters do understand how dangerous this is on preserving wushu and kung fu in general
that is why they still do maintain what is known as "families"
they try to preserve the old traditional wushu (and kung fu) within lineages by giving the full knowledge to a couple of special students.
the way the masters think is this government or this system is going to go one day and kung fu or wushu shouldnt die as the government die, so they still keep teaching the original traditional practical stuff outside of the government-sponsored schools (they can only teach what they are required to by the government inside those schools)
i trust KF and wushu will survive! it did for several thousands of years
and you have a lot of families now, and families do preserve the art fully.
so chill man


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## jdinca (Dec 23, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> so chill man


 
Like a cool breeze...:supcool:


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## arnisador (Dec 24, 2005)

Wushu is a sport. It's cool, but it's gymnastics.


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## East Winds (Dec 24, 2005)

Modern Wushu originated in Chinese Opera. The Traditional Chinese Opera forms were of course based on Traditional MA forms. Wushu has its place as a gymnastic form and is every bit as relevant as modern gymnastics. However it is not a martial art and should not therefroe be confused with one.

Very best wishes


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## Jade Tigress (Dec 24, 2005)

Wushu means martial arts. However, there is nothing martial about modern wushu in China. It is performance based gymnastics pure and simple. That's not to say that the Chinese wushu performers know of nothing of martial arts, but that when they compete/perform, that's all it is.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 24, 2005)

The term "wushu" is a more proper term for Chinese martial arts.  Wushu means "fighting art", while Kung Fu means essentially "to do something with skill that has taken time, effort and study to develop".  You can have good kung fu in fighting skill, or cooking, or carpentry, or whatever.  Kung fu was mistranslated in the west to mean the fighting arts, and the term has stuck.  Traditional Wushu would mean the older, fighting arts of China, what we generally refer to as "kung fu".  Modern Wushu as a performance art is more commonly associated with the term "wushu" by itself.

Modern Wushu was developed in tht 1950s by the Chinese government as a performance art.  It was recognized from the beginning that it was a separation from the fighting arts, even tho it is based in the fighting arts.  While it is an amazing art with some top-notch athletes, it is not, and never was, considered to be a fighting art.  However, that is changing.  There are proponents of Modern Wushu today who feel that it is important to return to the traditional roots and re-establish the fighting base of the traditional wushu, and make that part of modern wushu.  I believe people like Jet Li are among them.  Whether or not this will ultimately make modern wushu a viable fighting/self-defense art remains to be seen.  That will probably also depend on the teacher.  A teacher who also has a solid background in the traditional wushu is in a better position to make this a reality.

While my sifu teaches both traditional and modern wushu, my preferences have always been with the traditional.  When I first began studying with him I made that very clear, and he has always respected that and taught me nothing but traditional wushu.  

While the movements of Modern Wushu are impressive, I always felt it was too obviously a performance, and I never liked the trend toward lighter and lighter weaponry.  Speed and technique developed with a featherweight weapon is not real.  It is designed to impress a judge or an audience, but is completely unrealistic.  It is very misleading because a featherweight weapon allows you to cheat on your technique for the sake of speed and flash.  A real, properly weighted weapon requires the use of the entire body to employ proper technique.  It will also go a long way in developing your strength in a natural, useful way.  A wushu weapon allows you to use only your hand and arm due to its lightness, and does little to develop your strength.  This is true of both short weapons like sword and broadsword, and long weapons like spear and staff.

If someone is interested in the acrobatic aspect of Modern Wushu, I would recommend studying an art like Capoeira instead.  This will teach a wider array of acrobatics, and will also teach you to utilize your acrobatics spontaneously and creatively.  While some of these movements are contained in the Modern Wushu forms, it is important to remember that Modern Wushu forms are not necessarily based on solid fighting technique or theory.  As has been mentioned before, it is essentially a gymnastic and performance routine.

Modern Wushu has its place, but it is important to understand what that place is.  Some people love it, and for them it is good.  For others, who are more interested in understanding the fighting techniques of China, Modern Wushu is not the right thing to study.

michael


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## theletch1 (Dec 25, 2005)

As an aikido-ka I've always related modern wushu to Steven Segal movies...only the barest resemblance to the true art but damned good at getting non-practitioners to take notice at least on a superficial level.  That superficial level sometimes sparks an interest in some one who might otherwise never have gravitated to a particular art or any art at all for that matter.  For those of us who "know the deal" it may be a bit disconcerting but IMO what it all boils down to is some rather entertaining advertisement for the art(s) that we work so hard at.


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## terryl965 (Dec 25, 2005)

Wushu has its place like every thimg else in life, is it a problem no! people that wish to learn this type of sport is not looking for Self Defense, they are looking for that Gymkata stuff that was around in the eighties. I enjoy watching those guys and girls preform those amazing drills just as if I was at the circus, it is for entertrainment.
Terry


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## jdinca (Dec 25, 2005)

Great resplies! It seems the general consensus is that modern wushu is mostly for show. That given, how do you feel about it sneaking into more traditional systems? Is it okay to put it into forms for competition, thereby making a traditional form no longer "traditional"? Do you care?


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## Flying Crane (Dec 25, 2005)

jdinca said:
			
		

> Great resplies! It seems the general consensus is that modern wushu is mostly for show. That given, how do you feel about it sneaking into more traditional systems? Is it okay to put it into forms for competition, thereby making a traditional form no longer "traditional"? Do you care?


 
Most of the tournaments for Chinese martial arts have different divisions to keep modern wushu separated from traditional wushu.  I think it makes sense to keep them separated, and I have seen judges raise objections when they felt a competitor in the traditional division should have been competing in the modern division.

Overall, my vote goes with keeping the modern stuff out of the traditional stuff.

I think we need to define a point or two, however.  Since martial arts are always evolving and changing, Traditional can include "new" material, as long as the material is based on solid fighting technique and theory.  Just because some material is not 200 years old, it doesn't mean it is not good and valid.  It could be 5 years old, but created by a highly experience practitioner of traditional wushu.  In my opinion, this would have a legitimate place in traditional wushu.

Modern on the other hand, needs to be recognized as that which focuses on performance, without solid fighting technique or theory.


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## jdinca (Dec 25, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Most of the tournaments for Chinese martial arts have different divisions to keep modern wushu separated from traditional wushu. I think it makes sense to keep them separated, and I have seen judges raise objections when they felt a competitor in the traditional division should have been competing in the modern division.
> 
> Overall, my vote goes with keeping the modern stuff out of the traditional stuff.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with all your points. The tournaments I've been a part of will check weapons to make sure they're not the thin wushu stuff etc., but, I've seen things like butterfly kicks and flips added to "traditional" forms. Because they look great and are flashy, especially when done well, these competitors often get higher scores, even though there is no practical application to the movement. I have no problem with new movement being added to a form, as long as it's practical and keeping in the spirit of the style the form came from.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 25, 2005)

jdinca said:
			
		

> I agree with all your points. The tournaments I've been a part of will check weapons to make sure they're not the thin wushu stuff etc., but, I've seen things like butterfly kicks and flips added to "traditional" forms. Because they look great and are flashy, especially when done well, these competitors often get higher scores, even though there is no practical application to the movement. I have no problem with new movement being added to a form, as long as it's practical and keeping in the spirit of the style the form came from.


 
Yes, this is true.  In the abstract, I can perhaps see how a small amount of acrobatics within a traditional form could be legitimate, as a way of increasing athletic development for the practitioner.  I think this may have originally been done in some of the older forms, but this is not the same as a modern competitor adding acrobatics to a traditional form for the sake of asthetics and winning tournaments.  It is hard to draw a solid line in defining how much, or under what circumstances, this is acceptable.  While I am a proponent of change when appropriate, I think adding acrobatics and "modern" movements to traditional forms is inappropriate in the broader scope.


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## clfsean (Dec 25, 2005)

jdinca said:
			
		

> I agree with all your points. The tournaments I've been a part of will check weapons to make sure they're not the thin wushu stuff etc., but, I've seen things like butterfly kicks and flips added to "traditional" forms. Because they look great and are flashy, especially when done well, these competitors often get higher scores, even though there is no practical application to the movement. I have no problem with new movement being added to a form, as long as it's practical and keeping in the spirit of the style the form came from.


 
A butterfly kick or head kip/flip or other ditang style moves aren't out of the realm of curriculum/reality with some systems like mizong lohan quan, zha quan, ying jow quan, ditang quan, etc... that are Nothern with movements similar if not exact contained in it.

A butterfly kick in a Hung Ga or CLF set would be just wrong.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 25, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> A butterfly kick or head kip/flip or other ditang style moves aren't out of the realm of curriculum/reality with some systems like mizong lohan quan, zha quan, ying jow quan, ditang quan, etc... that are Nothern with movements similar if not exact contained in it.


 
Yup.


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## vincehardy3 (Dec 25, 2005)

This is a good topic.  I would have to say that Wushu has its place like all other systems of exercise.  Wushu is devoid of real martial combative applicationit looks nice, but if it were applied in a real-world situation the practitioner would get seriously hurt.  The main persons that teach kung-fu in China are Wushu coaches, and the real fighters move to the states, Canada, Britain, etc, and the top-notch ones (older generation) are slowly dieing off.  I train in the internal martial arts (Xingyiquan, Baguaquan, and Taijiquan), and my instructor focuses solely on the martial applications.  I know that there are some that wouldnt agree with my opinion, but this is just my understanding.  Ive studied CMA and Wushu, and I would say that there is a noticeable difference.

Just my two cents,


Vincent
(Yiliquan Association)


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## East Winds (Dec 25, 2005)

In competition, you are of course performing to a prescribed set of rules and of course you will be judged on how closely your performance adheres to these rules. This is exactly why 48 and 88 step taiji routines were introduced. (To standardise competition routines). These forms will also be in a different category to the traditional Chen, Wu or Yang routines. Adding your own postures to a routine will lose you marks. (No matter how good or martially effective these postures may be). So strickly speaking, adding modern Wushu techniques to a traditional form would be disastrous in terms of marks in a competition.

Very best wishes


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## CuongNhuka (Dec 28, 2005)

Before I start I would like to apologize if I have stuck my nose were it doesnt belong. Or if I start to bore you. Ill start my thought process with a little story (itll help explain my point of view).
            In Coung Nhu it is possible to but tee shirts that advertise the style, training camp, or a single school. I have two and wear them to school a lot. Because of that I get a lot of people trying to get me into giving them a demo. For the most part I just -blank-, and moan, and groan, and try to weasel my way out of it (stuff like the ancient technique black belt hands out his senseis business card). And if they manage to talk me into it, I normally to about 10 minutes of Q&A after doing Sui Nim Dao. So Ive been have thinking that at the next training camp I go to Ill see about learning one of the advanced forms that looks cooler to the outsider. And if I cant do that, or I wont be able to go to training camp for a while, I could make my own.
            If I do, I plan on taking lots of time and using techniques that are actually martial, not _JUST_ aerobic. And of course to make it look good Ill use a lot jumping and spinning strikes. And if I cant come up with a *REALISTIC* application, scrap the move. No matter how cool.
            So my thoughts, its ok to learn some of the flashing, looks really cool stuff, but make sure you have some reason to. A few good reasons are (but not limited too):
· Tournament (though I guess that the main back round topic)
· Demos (to attract more possible students)
· TV. /movies (like demos)
You may or may-not agree with me. That is not quiet my point. My point is there are reasons to learn flash.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John


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## jdinca (Dec 28, 2005)

coungnhuka said:
			
		

> Before I start I would like to apologize if I have stuck my nose were it doesnt belong. Or if I start to bore you. Ill start my thought process with a little story (itll help explain my point of view).
> In Coung Nhu it is possible to but tee shirts that advertise the style, training camp, or a single school. I have two and wear them to school a lot. Because of that I get a lot of people trying to get me into giving them a demo. For the most part I just -blank-, and moan, and groan, and try to weasel my way out of it (stuff like the ancient technique black belt hands out his senseis business card). And if they manage to talk me into it, I normally to about 10 minutes of Q&A after doing Sui Nim Dao. So Ive been have thinking that at the next training camp I go to Ill see about learning one of the advanced forms that looks cooler to the outsider. And if I cant do that, or I wont be able to go to training camp for a while, I could make my own.
> If I do, I plan on taking lots of time and using techniques that are actually martial, not _JUST_ aerobic. And of course to make it look good Ill use a lot jumping and spinning strikes. And if I cant come up with a *REALISTIC* application, scrap the move. No matter how cool.
> So my thoughts, its ok to learn some of the flashing, looks really cool stuff, but make sure you have some reason to. A few good reasons are (but not limited too):
> ...


 
I don't think learning flash is an issue, provided it's appropriate to the style and has a purpose. I have to admit, as much as I don't like some of the modern wushu moves added to traditional forms, they sure look awesome when done correctly. But often they are out of place with the style, form and movement of the form. I think you're approaching it the right way.


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## CuongNhuka (Dec 29, 2005)

Thanks Jdinca. mmm... then I guess I have nothing else to say.

John


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## jdinca (Dec 30, 2005)

coungnhuka said:
			
		

> Thanks Jdinca. mmm... then I guess I have nothing else to say.
> John



:rofl:


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## brothershaw (Jan 28, 2006)

As it is alot of the true training and skill is disappearing, wu shu further takes away from that since the younger generation will tend to gravitate towards it and most wont move onto other chinese arts that are taught in a more traditional way. Even the karate guys are having to add wushu ( they call it extreme) to thier karate to keep the kids and the money coming in. 
  The odds are incredibly stacked against cmas- find a good teacher who actually knows his stuff, who can actually afford to keep a school of some sort going. It is so much easier to find a decent karate, jujitsu or X art school. And I love cmas and respect the time the wushu people put into thier training.


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## AceHBK (Feb 1, 2006)

Very interesting topic.
I have someone who teaches me northern and shaolin kung fu. He took wushu and was on a wushu team and quickly poits out to me that u really should know kung fu before u go and learn wushu.
He told me that most people today only want to do the flashy stuff and dont understand the roots of it.  He went onto say that to the trained eye a person can tell who has solid kung fu training to go with their wushu as opposed to someone who just has wushu training.


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## jdinca (Feb 2, 2006)

AceHBK said:
			
		

> Very interesting topic.
> I have someone who teaches me northern and shaolin kung fu. He took wushu and was on a wushu team and quickly poits out to me that u really should know kung fu before u go and learn wushu.
> He told me that most people today only want to do the flashy stuff and dont understand the roots of it. He went onto say that to the trained eye a person can tell who has solid kung fu training to go with their wushu as opposed to someone who just has wushu training.



You have a good teacher. What he said is absolutely true. As has been pointed out though, this refers to modern wushu and not the traditional art.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 2, 2006)

As others have said  if you are only learning the "mordern" you may learn flexability, sped, etc. but you miss out on what  these moves derived from.  
Some of the "new" forms are beautiful to watch and some fighting aspects may be learned from them but again with out the "old" (knowledge) added you miss part of the picture


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## LeShin (Mar 3, 2006)

Hi guys, new to Martialtalk and new to the chinese martial arts in general would be grateful for your opinion on this:

I've recently started a wushu class as I've been fascinated by the look of some of the techniques. Actually it was witnessing someone in my area doing 5 consecutive butterfly kicks in my street that prompted me to look frantically for a wushu class (that, and watching Iron Monkey numerous times )

Anyway, I really like the class, even though my legs felt pain they had never witnessed before in their life after the first lesson as i'm not exactly what you would call flexible as i didn't really need to be when I did Ninjutsu a few years back.

The thing is, i've researched all over the internet and in books and I've realised i am learning the modern version. I really would like to learn the combat aspect of traditional wushu as a main and also have the acrobatic kicks and leaping of modern wushu.  My main focus in learning martial arts was to be able to balance speed, some acrobatic flexibility and power . I have come to understand that traditional wushu instructors won't necessarily put in some of the "flamboyant moves" from modern wushu.

So my question is: Would i have to cross train in both modern and traditional wushu to get what I want? or are both versions just to similar to cross train in (i.e. i would be learning the same martial art twice)

I apologize in advance if that is a stupid question, but like i said, i'm sort of new to the whole wushu and chinese martial arts in general.

Also if anyone could point me in the direction of a traditional wushu class in London, England, i would be very grateful!


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## InvisibleFist (Apr 22, 2006)

If you're enjoying what you're doing, I say stick with it.  Modern wushu is a ton of fun, and it will be great traing for traditional if you want to switch later.  Wushu is like kung fu on steroids.  After the deep stances you'll learn in contemporary, learning traditional will be a snap.


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