# How good was Bruce Lee??



## Manny (Sep 24, 2010)

Hi every one, if I recall Bruce Lee died in 1973, in that time I was a 5 years old and know nothing about MA, in those days my heros was the lone ranger and tarzan. Back in the 80's I saw some movies from Bruce and enjoyed it, however I don't know how good was Bruce Lee as a fighter.

Manny


----------



## igillman (Sep 24, 2010)

From what I have read about him he was very good. He had both speed and power along with a remarkable sense of timing. He trained almost all day every day which is what helped make him so good.

There are some videos on YouTube that show some of his fight scenes slowed down so that you can see the moves he performs in the space of a few seconds.


----------



## igillman (Sep 24, 2010)

This site has a lot of information about him including interviews with people who worked with him...

http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 24, 2010)

Manny said:


> Hi every one, if I recall Bruce Lee died in 1973, in that time I was a 5 years old and know nothing about MA, in those days my heros was the lone ranger and tarzan. Back in the 80's I saw some movies from Bruce and enjoyed it, however I don't know how good was Bruce Lee as a fighter.
> 
> Manny


Nobody really knows how good Lee was.  Certainly, he was had a very high level of technical proficiency as demonstrated in his films.  

But he has no documented fights.

I appreciate him as an innovator and a film star.  He brought martial arts to the big screen in the west in a way that nobody else at the time could have.  As a result, many people became interested in martial arts who otherwise would not have been. 

Lee inspired several generations of martial arts enthusiasts, students, and fighters.  That is a serious accomplishment.

Daniel


----------



## ATC (Sep 24, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Nobody really knows how good Lee was.


Well that is not really true. There are some great fighting leagends that did train with Bruce and they all say he was fast, hit hard and could fight.

Legends like Joe Lewis, Ron Harrison, Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Bob Wall, and some others.

There is a documentary out there called "The Man the Myth the Ledgend" and they interviewed people like Joe Lewis and he states from his own mouth, "How do I know Bruce hit hard? Becasue he popped me quite a few times".

You are correct when saying that there are now documented fights. But there are some great fighters that have worked out (trained and sparred) with him.


----------



## troubleenuf (Sep 24, 2010)

Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt.  Stories grow and change especially with someone like Bruce Lee.  What was an "OK" hit 40 years ago is now a death blow.  Thats the way things work.  I used to take my students out in rain storms to do pushups on the sidewalk... when I got them back in I would tell them that in 20 years the story would be we were doing pushups on the sidewalk in a raging blizzard and the temp was 30 below.  



ATC said:


> Well that is not really true. There are some great fighting leagends that did train with Bruce and they all say he was fast, hit hard and could fight.
> 
> Legends like Joe Lewis, Ron Harrison, Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Bob Wall, and some others.
> 
> ...


----------



## terryl965 (Sep 24, 2010)

I will only add this he was considered by many to have excellent skills for his time. How that would eqaute today I do not know and nobody else does either.


----------



## Omar B (Sep 24, 2010)

We all can agree he was technically proficient and an innovator.  From what we have heard and read from guys like Chuck Norris, Bob Wall, etc he did train with people and was pretty good.  What I always think about was Bruce in a real fight, in a ring.  He was around in the time of the hardcore karate days when dudes like Chuck and his crew ruled, I would have loved to know how he would have done in a ring rather than a gym or on screen.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 24, 2010)

ATC said:


> There is a documentary out there called "The Man the Myth the Ledgend" and they interviewed people like Joe Lewis and he states from his own mouth, "How do I know Bruce hit hard? Becasue he popped me quite a few times".
> 
> .


 
Joe Lewis speaks highly of him and if you have ever been on the floor with Joe Lewis a former world champ you would know that you can bank on what he says. There are also stories by those who were on movie sets when Bruce Lee was challenged. As far as i know he always accepted the challenge and always won. There was one challenge match where he came up short and it was during the convalescence that he wrote the Tao of jeet kun do. 

I think there was a story of a confrontation with Gene LeBell where he came up short.


----------



## Disco (Sep 24, 2010)

"He was around in the time of the hardcore karate  days when dudes like Chuck and his crew ruled, I would have loved to  know how he would have done in a ring rather than a gym or on screen.".......... 		Omar B

You have to wonder though, why didn't he step into the ring during those days. Sparring and getting hit with not full blows is one thing, but stepping into the ring with the likes of Lewis, Wall, Stone, Norris and Harrison and "getting it on" with knock out power and intent is a whole different realm.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Sep 24, 2010)

Disco said:


> "He was around in the time of the hardcore karate  days when dudes like Chuck and his crew ruled, I would have loved to  know how he would have done in a ring rather than a gym or on screen."..........         Omar B
> 
> You have to wonder though, why didn't he step into the ring during those days. Sparring and getting hit with not full blows is one thing, but stepping into the ring with the likes of Lewis, Wall, Stone, Norris and Harrison and "getting it on" with knock out power and intent is a whole different realm.



Maybe he didn't think he had anything to prove to you.


----------



## Omar B (Sep 24, 2010)

Whoa!  Calm down there Bill.  The dude's just trying to make a point.

Yeah Disco.  The 60's and 70's were a golden age in American Karate with dudes like Chuck and his crew, Ed Parker and his crew, Jhoon Rheen and his crew.  I often wonder why Bruce didnt step in the ring, for at least a couple bouts.  He was a great salesman and a charismatic personality though, a lot of people stand firmly by his teachings ... not that that means anything, many Grandmasters out there were not the greatest fighters, but their students were.


----------



## Disco (Sep 24, 2010)

"Maybe he didn't think he had anything to prove to you."

Even though I was around during that time frame, me and Lee didn't travel in the same circles, so I wasn't looking for anything from him. The core question was "How good was Bruce Lee" and there's nothing but conjecture for an answer. All the other guys named, were in the ring and everybody associates the profiles with tournament fighting and they always pose the Lee question into the same vain. The question can't be answered, but one surely wonders why Lee didn't use the ring as a bigger springboard for his activities. If asking this question has somehow triggered the Lee reprisal nerve, then by all means, please accept my apology and give my best to Mrs Lee....:uhohh:


----------



## clfsean (Sep 24, 2010)

Go ask the Lacey Brothers (Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut)... they knew him growing up in Hong Kong from the schools & neighborhood. 

They may have a slightly different look on things.


----------



## Omar B (Sep 24, 2010)

Oh do tell.


----------



## Disco (Sep 24, 2010)

"They may have a slightly different look on things." 	

OK, I'm officially and certifiably now interested.......:eye-popping:


----------



## searcher (Sep 24, 2010)

Skill not withstanding, he has probably done more for bringing people into the martial arts than any other single individual in recent history.      Like him or hate him, he influenced a great many martial artist.

Was he good?     Without a doubt.    

Was he a quick study?    No doubt about it.

Was he gifted?   You bet.

Was he the greatest?    I will go with no.      But I have no way to prove it one way or the other.


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 24, 2010)

How good was Bruce Lee really?  Who knows?  How can you measure it?

He clearly and demonstrably trained very hard, with impressive personal discipline.  And he sought out answers.  But he also really had limited documented training himself, and very good arguments have been advanced suggesting that what he did was little more than the natural progression of training as one advances, had he only been willing and able to stick around in formal training.

He approached movie fight choreography in a new way, recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of camera angles, and utilizing them in very carefully planned scenes.

But he apparently wasn't very successful in passing on what he learned and developed -- or was very, very successful.  Few of his students look like he did and move like he did.  Many have gone in different directions.  Of course, that may have been his intent with jeet kune do... in which case he did very well, since many of those same students have gone on to be highly respected and skilled names in the martial arts.

But, in the end, the whole thing is a moot question.  There really is no way to get an answer.  And not just because he never fought in a documented competition/sport match.  How do you make the comparison at all?


----------



## bluewaveschool (Sep 25, 2010)

He was no Chuck Norris.


----------



## ATC (Sep 25, 2010)

troubleenuf said:


> Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt.  Stories grow and change especially with someone like Bruce Lee.  What was an "OK" hit 40 years ago is now a death blow.  Thats the way things work.  I used to take my students out in rain storms to do pushups on the sidewalk... when I got them back in I would tell them that in 20 years the story would be we were doing pushups on the sidewalk in a raging blizzard and the temp was 30 below.


These people did not embellish anything. They simply said that he was fast and could hit hard. Joe Lewis only said he got pop quite a few times in sparring with him. Not that he did any bone crushing death blows. The same can be said for me fighting my instructors or fellow black belts. They hit me good quite a few times.

Just the fact that someone like Joe Lewis acknowledges that Bruce even trained with him is nothing to dismiss, let alone that this undefeated well known legendary full contact fighter would state that he got popped good quite a few times by him. I really don't see the exaggeration in the statement at all.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> Just the fact that someone like Joe Lewis acknowledges that Bruce even trained with him is nothing to dismiss, let alone that this undefeated well known legendary full contact fighter would state that he got popped good quite a few times by him. I really don't see the exaggeration in the statement at all.


 
Chuck Norris also realtes training with him in one of his books. It is a good stroy about "slow down to speed up". 

Norris spoke about his abilities on one of the Bruce Lee Bio shows where he was asked who would win in  a fight. Norris starts out saying something like "You have to remeber I was a World Champion Full contact tournament fighter , Bruce wasn't" Then the interviewer tries to pin him down to say he was better, and Norris diverts the story to Lee asking him to be in the Movie and he says to Lee "So who wins" andLee says "I do, it's my movie" Norris says  "So you want to beat the world Champion". Lee says "No, I want to kill the world Champion".


----------



## BloodMoney (Sep 25, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Norris diverts the story to Lee asking him to be in the Movie and he says to Lee "So who wins" andLee says "I do, it's my movie" Norris says  "So you want to beat the world Champion". Lee says "No, I want to kill the world Champion".



hahah thats awesome, cool. Bruce was a machine no doubt, how good was he? Very good. The best? Well in what way? The fastest? Maybe. The tallest? Probably not 

Some crazy feats Bruce was routinely capable of in his day:



> Lee's phenomenal fitness meant he was capable of performing many exceptional physical feats.[70][71][72][73] The following list includes some of the physical feats that are attributed to Bruce Lee.
> 
> 
> Lee's striking speed from three feet with his hands down by his side reached five hundredths of a second.[74]
> ...



Id say that at the time there would be literally a handful of people that could do some of the stuff he could. Now days training, martial arts and indeed humans have evolved, so many things he did in the 70's arent as impressive (or have been bested) by now. Still, he was a machine thats for damn sure.


----------



## bribrius (Sep 25, 2010)

http://www.onlineprnews.com/news/63...er-hargrave-world-jeet-kune-do-president.html


----------



## MA-Caver (Sep 25, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> He was no Chuck Norris.


By the same token... Norris was no Bruce Lee.

It's sad I think when a man moves from nothing, to star to legend and finally into myth. So many ideas, conceptions, stories, legends, myths, exaggerations, truths, and truths mixed with lies or misinformation or one story getting mixed up with another. 

The fact that people are still talking about him, still speculating, still revering and even following him should say something. Charismatic? Oh my hell yes. A great fighter? :idunno: Bruce had moved from ordinary street fighting punk kid to martial artist to a major star in his home country to the fact that he didn't need to fight anymore. 
Yet there are stories abound about how on the sets of his earlier movies he was challenged all the time to fights. Of how he would take these challengers on either between takes or shoots and beat them and then get back to work (or head on home). 
That they weren't documented shouldn't be too much of a surprise. Think about it... to the west Hong-Kong cinema was relatively unknown... how would it be that stories of fights between scenes or (daily) shoots were to get out. It would certainly mar the idea that HK Cinema is a professional movie industry in that part of the world now wouldn't it? 
So naturally any thing like that would be kept under wraps (pardon the pun). 

Trying to speculate how Lee would've done in today's world of MMA cage/ring fighting I think is futile. By the time MMA came to fruition and began it's popularity... Lee would've been too old to compete anyway against the younger fighters of today. He died 37 years ago and now would be 70 yrs old had he lived.
This is not to say that Lee wouldn't have given them a good run for their money. I believe he would've as he was in superb physical condition and had phenomenal strength for a guy his size/build. But chances are he'd been long since retired and had moved into writing, producing, directing and choreographing films... and yeah starring in a few as well.  He might've even been in Chan's shoes in the Karate Kid remake.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Sep 26, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Whoa!  Calm down there Bill.  The dude's just trying to make a point.



So am I.

I'm not a rabid Bruce Lee supporter.  But this type of thing occurs all the time.  Some armchair quarterback says "Yeah, well if he was that great, why didn't he fight X?"  Fill in the blank for X.  My guess is that the reason he didn't fight X is because he never though that 30 years later, some 'expert' would think he should have.

Bruce Lee wasn't interested in competing in tournaments as far as I can tell.  It's not like he tried and failed, he just didn't want to do that, so he didn't.  But apparently, that's not good enough; he should have lived his life differently to suit some armchair quarterback 30 years later.

I'm just a fan of people living their lives the way they want to, and if that's a problem for other people 30 years later, well, so what?


----------



## Disco (Sep 26, 2010)

So am I.

I'm not a rabid Bruce Lee supporter.  But this type of thing occurs all  the time.  Some armchair quarterback says "Yeah, well if he was that  great, why didn't he fight X?"  Fill in the blank for X.  My guess is  that the reason he didn't fight X is because he never though that 30  years later, some 'expert' would think he should have.

Your not making a point, your making an accusation. Since this is directed primarily at me, for you took it upon yourself to focus on my post and specifically refer to me ("Maybe he didn't think he had anything to prove to you.)"..............Apparently reading comprehension is not a strong suit. I didn't stipulate that Lee had to fight anyone, I only wondered out loud why he didn't use the ring to increase his objectives. I wasn't the only one who offered that sentiment, but the only one you felt compelled to vilify. 

On the other hand, thanks for the "'expert" label, perhaps I'll reference that when dealing with another discussion and someone takes exception to an open statement.


----------



## Archtkd (Sep 26, 2010)

Manny: See the hornets nest you stirred.


----------



## mook jong man (Sep 26, 2010)

From what I understand he only did about four years of Wing Chun training and didn't get up to the level of learning the Chum Kiu form.
So whilst he may have had a rudimentary understanding of the Sil Lum Tao structure ( if you will , the chassis of the car ) he still had not learned Chum Kiu ( adding the engine to the car ) learning to co-ordinate and move the body mass as an integrated unit.

So while he may have been blessed with many great attributes such as blinding speed etc there would still have been huge gaps missing in his understanding and knowledge of Wing Chun.

From a Wing Chun perspective , yes he was good , but not demi God status.
From what I have heard , the seniors in Hong Kong say "He could have been really good if he kept up his training ". (in Wing Chun that is ).


----------



## MA-Caver (Sep 27, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> From what I understand he only did about four years of Wing Chun training and didn't get up to the level of learning the Chum Kiu form.
> So whilst he may have had a rudimentary understanding of the Sil Lum Tao structure ( if you will , the chassis of the car ) he still had not learned Chum Kiu ( adding the engine to the car ) learning to co-ordinate and move the body mass as an integrated unit.
> 
> So while he may have been blessed with many great attributes such as blinding speed etc there would still have been huge gaps missing in his understanding and knowledge of Wing Chun.
> ...


To my understanding of the history of the man he had to leave and stop his WC training anyway and go to the U.S. because of some *ahem* trouble in HK. Yet he took with him the teachings of his sifu and applied it as he learned Philosophy in college. He was not only a skilled actor and MA-ist but very intelligent and well read. 
It is perhaps he understood his own (personal) need to expand beyond the boundaries set by the WC style and develop his own style (no-style). This of course took years as he became more exposed to different MA arts/styles. I would imagine the long discussions with GM Parker (and other MA-ist he met) had helped formulated the idea in his mind as well.  
He understood the need for adaptability to the ever changing dynamics that fighting brings. How one style has it's limits when met against another (as well as it's potential). 
He had expressed this idea when he wrote his second film "The Way Of The Dragon" aka "Return Of The Dragon" (the Chuck Norris fight) and showed it in the climatic fight scene at the coliseum, adapting and changing to suit the changing dynamics of the fight he was in.


----------



## First Action (Sep 27, 2010)

I believe he was a great fighter... he did construct a new 'style', which from personal research/experience, at the time was far better for actual combat ie street fights, than most martial arts out there. Compared to today though... who knows. There are many military styles and eclectic forms that could give his style a good go. As for him personally... i wonder how he would stand up in the octogon against the MMA experts... although there are rules in MMA and I would guess that if he was up against some of those guys that he would kick them straight in the groin or pick up a weapon (thats what Id do anyway )


----------



## mook jong man (Sep 27, 2010)

MA-Caver said:


> To my understanding of the history of the man he had to leave and stop his WC training anyway and go to the U.S. because of some *ahem* trouble in HK. Yet he took with him the teachings of his sifu and applied it as he learned Philosophy in college. He was not only a skilled actor and MA-ist but very intelligent and well read.
> *It is perhaps he understood his own (personal) need to expand beyond the boundaries set by the WC style and develop his own style (no-style). This of course took years as he became more exposed to different MA arts/styles*. I would imagine the long discussions with GM Parker (and other MA-ist he met) had helped formulated the idea in his mind as well.
> He understood the need for adaptability to the ever changing dynamics that fighting brings. How one style has it's limits when met against another (as well as it's potential).
> He had expressed this idea when he wrote his second film "The Way Of The Dragon" aka "Return Of The Dragon" (the Chuck Norris fight) and showed it in the climatic fight scene at the coliseum, adapting and changing to suit the changing dynamics of the fight he was in.


 
The problem is if you are only in something for four years ,  how do you know what the boundaries are set by the style. 
In some traditional schools he wouldn't have even been taught kicking yet , as they believe in firm stance foundation before balance is risked with kicking.

Some Grandmasters in Wing Chun still consider you to be a beginner if you have been training for under 10 years. 

People think its all about chain punching , but once you get to the other two empty hand forms Chum Kiu and Bil Gee there are hook punches and uppercuts involved , intricate low kicking movements involving deflecting , trapping , hooking , sweeping.

Actually the Bil Gee form is a major departure away from the principles of the system , particularly in the way power is generated and the lack of strict wrist positioning on the centerline as seen in the earlier forms.

Normally power is generated by stance turning of the whole body locked at the waist , but in Bil Gee the upper body is torqued much like a boxer or untrained person would generate power - not being locked at the waist.

The arms are all over place crossing way over the centerline , hands crossing over , things that would normally considered to be major no no's in Wing Chun.

So that in the event the Wing Chun person has made a mistake in combat , he can leave the boundaries set by the system , recover his positioning , and then move back inside the realms of the system again.

A lot of people have never learned this stuff because most of it is not taught until much later.


----------



## CanadianCommando (Sep 27, 2010)

I think Bruce Lee's greatest legacy was that he did the equivalent of running the four-minute mile.

Someone pointed out that for his day he was very good, perhaps even great, but that fighters and humans have evolved. I agree. I also believe a lot of that evolution was directly attributable to Bruce Lee, if only in the inspirational sense.

Whether or not he was the greatest fighter of his time is irrelevant. He gave us our first taste of what is possible, and opened the gates for future martial artists to take modern martial arts and physical training to new levels. 

I doubt any other single martial artist in the last century has had more influence on more budding martial artists. Every kid I knew growing up idolized him, and he influenced us all. How many kids dreamed of being the next Bruce Lee?

In that sense, I would contend that he truly was the greatest martial artist of his day.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 27, 2010)

First Action said:


> I believe he was a great fighter... he did construct a new 'style', which from personal research/experience, at the time was far better for actual combat ie street fights, than most martial arts out there. Compared to today though... who knows. There are many military styles and eclectic forms that could give his style a good go. As for him personally... i wonder how he would stand up in the octogon against the MMA experts... although there are rules in MMA and *I would guess that if he was up against some of those guys that he would kick* *them straight in the groin or pick up a weapon (thats what Id do* *anyway* )


 

Why on earth would you think (or do) that? I've no idea whether he would have been interested in MMA or would have wanted to compete but I'm sure if he had he would have taken it seriously and fought by the rules of the sport. If he'd wanted to fight in an MMA bout I imagine he'd have trained and prepared himself properly so that he gave a good account of himself.


----------



## terryl965 (Sep 27, 2010)

Bruce Lee would have followed the rule set if he was competing inthe Octagon. Just look at his book The Tao of jeet kun do.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 27, 2010)

ATC said:


> Well that is not really true.


With regards to how good he was as a fighter, actually it is. The man wasn't a professional fighter, so the fact that he impressed guys who were not only pro fighters, but top shelf pro fighters, is actually a bigger feather in his cap, though it really doesn't answer the question as to how good a fighter he actually was.



ATC said:


> *There are some great fighting leagends that did train with Bruce and they all say he was fast, hit hard and could fight.*
> 
> Legends like Joe Lewis, Ron Harrison, Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Bob Wall, and some others.
> 
> ...


Yes, but doesn't that kind of state the obvious? We all knew that he was fast; he demonstrated that in his movies. We all knew that he had a high level of technical proficiency and that he could hit hard. It was plain to see that he was highly athletic and very, very fit. And nobody questions whether or not he _could _fight. Lee could never have had the credibility that he had with the fighters of the day if he couldn't fight.

But the question was not whether or not he *could* fight, but rather how good a fighter was he?  Certainly, he could knock the tar out of most unarmed (and likely quite a few armed) assailants in an SD scenario.  But nameless street toughs aren't who people want to compare him to.  People want to compare him to men who were fighters by trade and who were at the top level of that trade.   



Manny said:


> Hi every one, if I recall Bruce Lee died in 1973, in that time I was a 5 years old and know nothing about MA, in those days my heros was the lone ranger and tarzan. Back in the 80's I saw some movies from Bruce and enjoyed it, *however I don't know how good was Bruce Lee as a fighter.*
> 
> Manny


Anecdotes from training partners really don't answer this question beyond confirming that the guy was no joke. But training in the studio and fighting in the movies proved that he was a dedicated trainer, a good movie fighter,and a good stunt man. 

Fighting in the ring against the best fighters of your day for all to see, win or lose, is the only real way to measure one's quality as a fighter. There is a lot more to being a fighter, as you know, than simply being fast and being able to hit hard. While I am sure that Lee had many other qualities in abundance, he was untested.

Certainly, his JKD system proved that he knew how to develop and codify a system, establish teaching pedagogy, and communicate that skill set to others, and that those others have achieved success with the methods he developed, so it is safe to say that he knew the anatomy of a fight and had a level of strategic knowledge.

The fact is that Lee was not a fighter by trade. He was a martial arts movie maker (a trade at which he excelled and in many ways, still sets the gold standard for). Had he decided to enter the competative fighting, I have no doubt that he would have at the* very least* held his own and likely excelled. He was definitely a gifted athlete and *pound for pound*, probably stronger than anyone of his day. 

And yes, I do consider him to have been a 'real deal' movie martial artist (as opposed to say, Tom Cruise, who has made movies with a martial arts theme but does not train in the arts outside of what he needs to to make a movie).

But had Lee become a professional fighter, he would not have had the widespread impact that he did. Kids in middle schools still idolize Bruce Lee. No kids in middle school or high school, and likely few adults, even those who are into martial arts, could tell you who Joe Lewis, Ron Harrison, Mike Stone, or Bill Wallis is. Heck, I recently had to explain to one of my sixteen year old son's friends who Muhammed Ali, arguably the greatest professional fighter of the twentieth century, is. 

And while Chuck Norris went on to become a film star and is still a household name, his viability as a martial arts movie maker came to him courtesy of Lee.

Lee transcended being a champion fighter. Lee became a martial arts hero by embodying the champion on screen. It is entirely likely that Lee's movies will still be watched fifty years from now and that posters of him will still adorn the walls of martial arts studios.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 27, 2010)

First Action said:


> I believe he was a great fighter... he did construct a new 'style', which from personal research/experience, at the time was far better for actual combat ie street fights, than most martial arts out there. Compared to today though... who knows. There are many military styles and eclectic forms that could give his style a good go. As for him personally... i wonder how he would stand up in the octogon against the MMA experts... although there are rules in MMA and I would guess that if he was up against some of those guys that he would kick them straight in the groin or pick up a weapon (thats what Id do anyway )


Oh yes, all those handy dandy weapons hanging on the walls of the cage go unnoticed by all of the current fighter. And that groin kick is just soooo magical. If do right, no can defense, right? 

By the way, had Lee resorted to such tactics in the octagon, he would A. be warned for the groin shot, disqualified and banned for life over sneaking in and using the weapon (he'd have had to sneak it in because weapons really are not hanging on the walls of the octagon), and likely have ended up in prison for assault with a deadly weapon (which is exactly what would happen to you if you did something that stupid). 

And Lee would have gone down in history as a lousy fighter for cheating. Seriously.

Lee was no idiot. If his life were threatened outside of the ring or a movie setting, then certainly, he would have witheld nothing and used any available weapons. 

In a competition, as Terry stated, Bruce Lee would have followed the rule set.

Daniel


----------



## Gruenewald (Sep 27, 2010)

Re-iterating a lot of what has been said already, this is my opinion on the matter:

Bruce Lee was a revolutionary in the field of martial arts, and paved the way for many ideas that were only really popularized many years after his death. For example, he advocated physical fitness just as heavily as technique in a time when "[t]raining [was] one of the most neglected phases of athletics", and "[t]oo much time [was] given to the development of skill and too little to the development  of the individual for participation" (The Tao of Jeet Kune Do). He inspired people to live healthy. He also developed a system that encouraged individuals to develop for themselves a path to "enlightenment", so to speak. He popularized martial arts in the Western world and gave new life to their study. Not only did he inspire martial artists, but people in every walk of life to achieve more than they thought they could achieve. The martial arts film industry was also impacted greatly by his dedication. He achieved SO much, and all in a time when racial prejudice was still a factor.

He never fought competitively, and we often wonder why, placing him in countless "what if" scenarios wondering "who would win in a fight" between Lee and a myriad of "proven" fighters of the time, or even fighters of today's time. The reality is that he most likely would not be able to defeat such fighters due to a variety of different reasons (his comparatively small size, or the fact that he lived before some very important developments in the world of martial arts, for example). It's unrealistic to pit him against people twice his size or people who live in such modern times who have access to things Bruce never would have. The people he interacted with (Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Joe Lewis, etc.) claimed that he could fight, however. From this we can conclude that he was quite possibly,_pound-for-pound_ one of the strongest and even the "best" fighters _in his respective time period_.

And of course, because of his various accomplishments as aforementioned, regardless of fighting ability, he will live in the hearts of countless people as one of the greatest martial artists (with all the meaning that that term suggests) to have ever lived.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 27, 2010)

My apology if this has already been posted, I will admit right here I did not read through every single post in this thread.

There are accounts of alleged fights with various challengers while Bruce Lee was filming in Hong Kong. There was an alleged film of multiple fights by various challengers while filming the Big Boss and he allegedly beat them all. But this alleged film was destroyed because it was more of a nuisance to filming than an addition to the movie.

There is also an alleged challenge to Carter Wong that was allegedly made by Bruce Lee that Bruce Lee backed out of and then there is the big fight between Bruce Lee and Wong Jack Man but then depending on which side of the story you want to believe (and in this case there appears to be more than 2) Bruce may or may not be a great fighter.

The thing to really focus in there is that most of this is alleged and beyond that the stories are conflicting.

But with that said I do believe Bruce Lee was a good fighter, as to how good he was that is only speculation at this point


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 27, 2010)

Gruenewald said:


> Re-iterating a lot of what has been said already, this is my opinion on the matter:
> 
> Bruce Lee was a revolutionary in the field of martial arts, and paved the way for many ideas that were only really popularized many years after his death. For example, he advocated physical fitness just as heavily as technique in a time when "[t]raining [was] one of the most neglected phases of athletics", and "[t]oo much time [was] given to the development of skill and too little to the development of the individual for participation" (The Tao of Jeet Kune Do). He inspired people to live healthy. He also developed a system that encouraged individuals to develop for themselves a path to "enlightenment", so to speak. He popularized martial arts in the Western world and gave new life to their study. Not only did he inspire martial artists, but people in every walk of life to achieve more than they thought they could achieve. The martial arts film industry was also impacted greatly by his dedication. He achieved SO much, and all in a time when racial prejudice was still a factor.


QFT!



Gruenewald said:


> He never fought competitively, and we often wonder why, placing him in countless "what if" scenarios wondering "who would win in a fight" between Lee and a myriad of "proven" fighters of the time, or even fighters of today's time.


I don't wonder. 

If you have a career doing one thing, you generally do not have the time to devote to another full time career. The level of training necessary for Lee to make his movies, the time spend honing is acting skills the the degree needed for his roles, and the time spent choreagraphing the fights and stunts in his movies all precluded him being a competitive fighter. 

Lee's chosen field was movie making. That was his choice. 

Dolph Lundgren said that he was twenty five minutes away from signing his professional boxing contract when he was notified that he had the part of Ivan Drago in Rocky IV. His friends advised him to take the movie role because "we like your face the way that it is." He already was a champion fighter and *chose* to make movies. The carreer proved much more lucrative for him and certainly exposed him to less risk of serious injury.

People make their career choices based on their needs and desires and upon their qualifications. Lee had the qualifications to make great martial arts movies and he definitely had the desire. He did what he wanted to do and the world was enriched in his doing so.



Gruenewald said:


> The reality is that he most likely would not be able to defeat such fighters due to a variety of different reasons (his comparatively small size, or the fact that he lived before some very important developments in the world of martial arts, for example). It's unrealistic to pit him against people twice his size or people who live in such modern times who have access to things Bruce never would have.


Had Lee gone the rout of the tournament fighter, his size would not have been a factor: he would have been fighting people in his weight class, so he would have fought against and been compared to people in his weight class of the day, and had he risen to the top levels of his time period, we'd be comparing him to top fighters of his weight category, probably guys like Sugaray Leonard (middleweight) or Floyd Mayweather (who I believe is welterweight) depending on what weight he stayed at in competition; he started off at about 130 and ended up at 165.



Gruenewald said:


> The people he interacted with (Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Joe Lewis, etc.) claimed that he could fight, however. From this we can conclude that he was quite possibly,_pound-for-pound_ one of the strongest and even the "best" fighters _in his respective time period_.


Lee could have been 'the next big thing' in fighting had he become a competitive fighter. Certainly, he was probably one of the strongest pound for pound men alive in his day. As a fighter, he had all of the necessary tools to do the job, and it would have been very exciting had he done so, but he decided on a different job instead, and the rest, as they say, is history. 



Gruenewald said:


> And of course, because of his various accomplishments as aforementioned, regardless of fighting ability, he will live in the hearts of countless people as one of the greatest martial artists (with all the meaning that that term suggests) to have ever lived.


Absolutely!

Daniel


----------



## ATC (Sep 27, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> With regards to how good he was as a fighter, actually it is. The man wasn't a professional fighter, so the fact that he impressed guys who were not only pro fighters, but top shelf pro fighters, is actually a bigger feather in his cap, though it really doesn't answer the question as to how good a fighter he actually was.
> 
> 
> Yes, but doesn't that kind of state the obvious? We all knew that he was fast; he demonstrated that in his movies. We all knew that he had a high level of technical proficiency and that he could hit hard. It was plain to see that he was highly athletic and very, very fit. And nobody questions whether or not he _could _fight. Lee could never have had the credibility that he had with the fighters of the day if he couldn't fight.
> ...


With all stated above you can infer that he was (though not professionally) a pretty good fighter. You stated originally that no one knew how good he was. My rebuttal was that, that was not true. Many of the professional fighters of his era knew. They all state in one way or another that if he were to fight in the ring that he would have done well. There are many people in today&#8217;s world that never fight in the ring but it is only logical to understand that just because you fight and beat everyone that chooses to fight in the ring, does not mean that you can beat every fighter that choose not to fight in the ring.

It just like saying that man X is the strongest man in the world. Well that is only because he is the strongest vs. those who choose to challenge for the title. There are billions of people in the world and a fraction that is too small to ever calculate will choose to challenge for any given anything.

Who is the oldest man in the world? No one really knows. Too many undocumented people in the world to really know. Odds are not the person that is listed as such.

But vs. those that Bruce worked with and those at the time that fought professionally, they knew how good Bruce was compared to the fightes of that time, and they all say he was really good.


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 27, 2010)

Disco said:


> So am I.
> 
> I'm not a rabid Bruce Lee supporter.  But this type of thing occurs all  the time.  Some armchair quarterback says "Yeah, well if he was that  great, why didn't he fight X?"  Fill in the blank for X.  My guess is  that the reason he didn't fight X is because he never though that 30  years later, some 'expert' would think he should have.
> 
> ...


But was the ring his objective?

At the time, a primary goal of Lee (at least according to what I recall of what I've read) was to be a major international film star.  Competing in the ring wouldn't have really helped him very much.  Chuck Norris didn't get into movies because of his tournament record.  Few (if any!) boxers had moved into movies.  And -- take the wrong unlucky kick to the face, and suddenly you've got a badly broken nose or an unsightly scar that could seriously interfere with that goal.

What did competition of any sort have that would have made it a worthwhile effort for Lee?  Not really a whole lot, huh?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 27, 2010)

ATC said:


> With all stated above you can infer that he was (though not professionally) a pretty good fighter. You stated originally that no one knew how good he was.


With any degree of precision, I do not believe that beyond "pretty good" it can really be known. There simply is not enough information. Which is what I mean by no one knows. 

I fully agree that in a general sense, we can know that he was certainly quite good by the standards of his day and perhaps by modern standards as well. 

But, assuming high caliber opponents, _how_ good? 

Solid and consistent, with a winning record? 
Exceptional and winning most of his fights (as opposed to simply more wins than losses)?
Or in the top 1 percentile? 

A solid and conistent fighter with a winning record against high caliber opponents is *really* good.

Winning most of your fights against high caliber opponents is *exceptionally* good and places you in the top ten percent of fighters.

Being in the top one percent is an Ali level fighter (61 fights with 56 wins; 37 by KO, 5 losses) or a Norris level fighter (estimated 183-12-2, or 65-5 depending on the source). Lee certainly had the physical potential and training foundation to be in the top one percent. 




ATC said:


> My rebuttal was that, that was not true. Many of the professional fighters of his era knew. They all state in one way or another that if he were to fight in the ring that he would have done well. There are many people in today&#8217;s world that never fight in the ring but it is only logical to understand that just because you fight and beat everyone that chooses to fight in the ring, does not mean that you can beat every fighter that choose not to fight in the ring.


Your comment about ring fighters who win all or most of their fights not necesarilly being able to beat all fighters who do not choose the ring, is again, something that I agree with in theory, but in practice, modern (meaning about mid 20th century on) pro fighters are training and preparing _to fight_ against resisting opponents for eight hours a day while the rest of us are working eight hours a day. That includes a high level of physical conditionsing, actual training, and researching their opponents to know their strengths and weaknesses. It is their job. 

Guys who make MA movies, such as Lee, are spending their eight hours a day training and preparing to make physically demanding movies. That includes a high level of physical conditioning (Lee definitely had that), actual training in the MA that is to be used in the movie, researching potential costars or stunt doubles for said costars with whom the fights can choreographed (Lee picked the best in the biz for his movies, which is part of why they were so good), and honing their acting skills. 

Lots of crossover, and had Lee not been a non-competitive fighter of a very high caliber, he would not have been able to make those movies.

But I always stop short of placing movie martial artists on the same plane as fighters as I do competitive fighters. Not because I do not think that it is possible for them to be great fighters (it absolutely is) but because to do so ignores a degree of reality in my opinion.




ATC said:


> It just like saying that man X is the strongest man in the world. Well that is only because he is the strongest vs. those who choose to challenge for the title. There are billions of people in the world and a fraction that is too small to ever calculate will choose to challenge for any given anything.





ATC said:


> Who is the oldest man in the world? No one really knows. Too many undocumented people in the world to really know. Odds are not the person that is listed as such.
> 
> But vs. those that Bruce worked with and those at the time that fought professionally, they knew how good Bruce was compared to the fightes of that time, and they all say he was really good.


I consider 'pretty good' coming from men like Joe Lewis to be a high compliment and certainly a well deserved one, but pretty good is a generality, as is 'would have done well', both of which I agree with but neither of which is conclusive.

I find little to disagree with in most of what you say and I have addressed those areas where my opinion differs above. I'm not so sure that we disagree, so much as that we are looking at it a little differently. 

Yes, I believe that one could conclude that Lee was very good by the standards of the top fighters of the day and that he "would have done well" *had* he chosen to enter the ring, in which case he would have learned all of the various subtleties and gamesmanship tactics that are a part of fighting under more specialized rule sets. And very likely, he would be less famous but well remembered as a superb fighter. 

Which is, I think what you are saying as well.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 27, 2010)

By the way, ATC, I hope that you don't think that I am trying to nit pick you or jump on you.  That is not my intention.  I figured I'd clear the air just in case I am coming across that way.

I find the topic interesting, particularly since it is more about how good a fighter Lee was rather than the usual "Could Bruce Lee beat ______ in a real fight?" topic.

I appreciate  your responses.

Daniel


----------



## Steve (Sep 27, 2010)

Disco said:


> So am I.
> 
> I'm not a rabid Bruce Lee supporter. But this type of thing occurs all the time. Some armchair quarterback says "Yeah, well if he was that great, why didn't he fight X?" Fill in the blank for X. My guess is that the reason he didn't fight X is because he never though that 30 years later, some 'expert' would think he should have.
> 
> ...


What could Lee have gained by getting in a ring? He was the first real Asian movie star. He was a household name in Throughout Asia, Europe and the USA. He was rich. He was successful. What could he have gained?

Now, what could he have lost? If he got into the ring against someone for whatever reason and lost the fight, his reputation would have suffered greatly. If he had accepted a high profile challenge fight with Chuck Norris (let's say hypothetically) and lost, do you think we'd be talking about it now? Probably not. If he had done this, I think it's very likely that instead of a legend sparking heated conversation, he'd be a trivia question at best. He'd still be talked about, sure, but his legend would be dramatically reduced. More relevant to him, I'm guessing, his marketability would have been reduced.

Asking Bruce Lee to *prove* his martial ability is like saying that Rock Hudson should have been openly gay. It's about marketability, and common sense as far as I'm concerned. Bottom line is this. If I were Bruce Lee's agent/publicist/PR person or just someone interested in his career whom he trusted, and he was gung ho about fighting, I would have said not just no, but hell no. In his position, he had everything to lose and would have gained nothing by proving his skill in a ring.


----------



## ATC (Sep 27, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> By the way, ATC, I hope that you don't think that I am trying to nit pick you or jump on you. That is not my intention. I figured I'd clear the air just in case I am coming across that way.
> 
> I find the topic interesting, particularly since it is more about how good a fighter Lee was rather than the usual "Could Bruce Lee beat ______ in a real fight?" topic.
> 
> ...


Never Daniel. I find you one of the better posters on here and really enjoy your points of view. Very informative and in depth.


----------



## ATC (Sep 27, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> ...Asking Bruce Lee to *prove* his martial ability is like saying that Rock Hudson should have been openly gay...


You could have come up with a better analogy than that.


----------



## Steve (Sep 27, 2010)

ATC said:


> Never Daniel. I find you one of the better posters on here and really enjoy your points of view. Very informative and in depth.


How good is Daniel??  I mean, really?  Is he the best?  Has he ever stepped into an open forum in a no holds barred verbal deathmatch?  



> You could have come up with a better analogy than that.


Hehe.  I thought it was a great analogy.


----------



## ATC (Sep 27, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> How good is Daniel??  I mean, really?  Is he the best?  Has he ever stepped into an open forum in a no holds barred verbal deathmatch?
> 
> Hehe.  I thought it was a great analogy.


Ha ha ha...Good one.


----------



## Mark Jordan (Sep 28, 2010)

I believe Bruce Lee was one of the best we've had. You can tell how good someone is by their students.  Dan Inosanto and Taky Kimura were among Lee's students and both are great fighters.


----------



## Heavenly Glory (Sep 28, 2010)

This kind of question gets asked regularly, and some of the speculation is laughable. Therefore, I won't addd to it.

However, there are a couple interviews I've seen with executives who were present on the set of Bruce's movies.

One tells of some Muay Thai fighters on the set of Big Boss who decided Bruce was "just an actor" and one challenged him. Bruce proceeded to beat the crap out of him.

Another was a guy on the set of Enter the Dragon. Used his big mouth, questioning Bruce's abilities - again Bruce provided the proof that he could indeed, "fight". I've also seen/read Bob wall describing this encounter saying that Lee "kicked the hell out of him".

Lee was also challenged a number of times while in HK during film production. He is reported to have taken some of these guys on and comprehensively tonked them.

I actually have the documentary recorded somewhere - I'll see if I can dig it out and provide the title so anyone wishing to, can see the interviews for themselves.

Additionally, Bruce is known to have been involved in a number of fights while in Hong Kong, along with one of his fellow Wing Chun students. As for not learning the whole of the Wing Chun system, so what? JKD is not Wing Chun. The method of JKD developed by Lee, includes boxing techniques and adapted fencing techniques. It has its own footwork. It does not rely on the "rootedness" that WC people often talk about (having studied WC briefly, I do understand that footwork is a major part of WC).

He was also involved in a boxing tournament in HK which he proceeded to win, fighting much bigger guys.

Successful actor, developing martial artist, why worry about going into the ring?


----------



## Cirdan (Sep 28, 2010)

Heavenly Glory said:


> As for not learning the whole of the Wing Chun system, so what? JKD is not Wing Chun. The method of JKD developed by Lee, includes boxing techniques and adapted fencing techniques. It has its own footwork. It does not rely on the "rootedness" that WC people often talk about (having studied WC briefly, I do understand that footwork is a major part of WC).


 
Rooting is not a concept unique to WC. I would think it is central to many, if not most arts.


----------



## mook jong man (Sep 28, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> Rooting is not a concept unique to WC. I would think it is central to many, if not most arts.


 
If you ever come to Australia , do yourself a  favour and don't mention rooting in conversation.
You might end up with more than what you bargained for.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> If you ever come to Australia , do yourself a favour and don't mention rooting in conversation.
> You might end up with more than what you bargained for.


 

:lfao:


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 28, 2010)

Many years ago I heard a comedian do a bit on a conversation he had at a party with someone about Bruce Lee

He was saying Bruce was good but not the best and the other guy said

OH YEAH!!! Well If Bruce Lee were here, and heard you say that,  he would punch you in the chest, rip out your heart, show it to you before you died, and then toss into the bean dip.

I have no idea why that has stuck in my head for so many years


----------



## Big Don (Sep 28, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Many years ago I heard a comedian do a bit on a conversation he had at a party with someone about Bruce Lee
> 
> He was saying Bruce was good but not the best and the other guy said
> 
> ...


Probably nothing more than your obsession with bean dip...

Was Bruce Lee great, in that he inspired countless people to explore the martial arts? With out a doubt. 
Was Bruce Lee a great fighter? He didn't fight in competitions, but, neither do I, and I'm not half bad...
Part of me "gets" the obsession many have with Bruce Lee as an icon. 
The rest of me, well...


----------



## Omar B (Sep 28, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> If you ever come to Australia , do yourself a  favour and don't mention rooting in conversation.
> You might end up with more than what you bargained for.



You gonna explain that?


----------



## Big Don (Sep 28, 2010)

Omar B said:


> You gonna explain that?


In Aussie slang, rooting = screwing


----------



## mook jong man (Sep 28, 2010)

Omar B said:


> You gonna explain that?


 
Yes I'll translate into Americanese.

In Australian:

Ow ya goin luv , hows about a root ?

In American:

Yo yo baby , lets you and me hook up later and go back to my crib and do the wild thang.


----------



## bluekey88 (Sep 28, 2010)

Probably becasue that is exactly the sort of thing bruce would not have done.  

But hey...this wouldn't be the internetz without rampant and wild speculation.  It's practically a religion. 

Peace,
Erik


----------



## Cirdan (Sep 28, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> If you ever come to Australia , do yourself a favour and don't mention rooting in conversation.
> You might end up with more than what you bargained for.


 
Suddenly the titles of some movies I`ve uh, heard of, are clear to me.

Do you have root beer down there by the way?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 28, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Yes I'll translate into Americanese.
> 
> Yo yo baby , lets you and me hook up later and go back to my crib and do the wild thang.


 
From this I'm guessing you took American studies with Professor Tone L&#333;c


----------



## mook jong man (Sep 28, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> Suddenly the titles of some *ahem* movies I`ve seen are clear to me.
> 
> Do you have root beer down there by the way?


 
No , we usually drink beer and then  root.
In fact its the copious quantities of beer consumed that enable ugly people in Australia to get a root in the first place..

They always get better looking when you've got your beer goggles on.


----------



## mook jong man (Sep 28, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> From this I'm guessing you took American studies with Professor Tone L&#333;c


 
Yes I majored in Funky Cold Medina.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 28, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Yes I majored in Funky Cold Medina.


 
:lol:


----------



## Big Don (Sep 28, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Yes I majored in Funky Cold Medina.





mook jong man said:


> No , we usually drink beer and then  root.
> In fact its the copious quantities of beer consumed that enable ugly people in Australia to get a root in the first place..
> 
> They always get better looking when you've got your beer goggles on.





Xue Sheng said:


> From this I'm guessing you took American studies with Professor Tone L&#333;c


hahahaha


----------



## Steve (Sep 28, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Yes I'll translate into Americanese.
> 
> In Australian:
> 
> ...



Lol.  That's true if your version of american is entirely basses on the script from Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo.


----------



## InkedT (Sep 28, 2010)

This might be a bit out of line on this thread but since it's on the topic of Martial artists/ actors and how good they are. How good would Jet Li or Jackie Chan be in a real life situation or competition?


----------



## Omar B (Sep 28, 2010)

InkedT said:


> This might be a bit out of line on this thread but since it's on the topic of Martial artists/ actors and how good they are. How good would Jet Li or Jackie Chan be in a real life situation or competition?



I don't know.  We have all seen movie stars with zero fitness beat tons of guys to a pulp on screen.  Fight choreography and actual fighting are very different animals.  Jet has had extensive training in Wushu (I think Wushu), Jackie has had some training that I know of in Hapkido, but it's hard to judge ability when these people are the stars of movies and are meant to look good.


----------



## InkedT (Sep 28, 2010)

Obviously they're movie stars.  I was just wondering if anyone knew anything about their real world abilities. There are people who had competition experience who went into choreographed movies, not that many were sucessful though. But I don't know how good they were outside of the movies, that may be why they started movies in the first place.


----------



## Omar B (Sep 28, 2010)

Jet competed as a child, even met President Nixon on tour with his group when he was a kid.


----------



## MartialStudy (Sep 29, 2010)

As I understand it Jet Li excelled in his martial studies as a child, which is why he went on to tour with his group (didn't know he met Pres Nixon!) and went on to stardom in the HK film industry.  Don't know about Jackie Chan.

Interestingly with Bruce Lee, while he had a great deal of respect amongst the Western Martial Arts community, you have to remember that Kung Fu hadn't existed in the US for that long when he brought it to the masses, so I wonder if it might be a case of "Wow!  I've never seen anything like that before!".

Certainly I've read of a number of Martial Arts teachers who came over from HK and mainland China before or at the same time as Bruce Lee who didn't think much of his ability.  For me the key is that an arrogance and desire to prove himself seemed to be what Bruce Lee was all about.

I actually wrote a small piece about how Bruce Lee may not have been as good as people thought the other day.  The main point is looking at the fight between Wong Jack Man and Bruce Lee, and how the two men approached it.  One looking to kill as they would do traditionally in China, the other more concious of the laws in the US.


----------



## Heavenly Glory (Sep 29, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> Rooting is not a concept unique to WC. I would think it is central to many, if not most arts.


I understand that.  However, WC guys seem to make a big point about it.

Not saying right or wrong; just is.


----------



## Cirdan (Sep 29, 2010)

Heavenly Glory said:


> I understand that. However, WC guys seem to make a big point about it.
> 
> Not saying right or wrong; just is.


 
But you don`t have it in JKD or is it just not regarded as important? 
Just curious because many of Lee`s teachings are held in high regard where I train, and we also have a strong chineese influence.


----------



## Heavenly Glory (Sep 29, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> But you don`t have it in JKD or is it just not regarded as important?
> Just curious because many of Lee`s teachings are held in high regard where I train, and we also have a strong chineese influence.


 
I trained in Wing Chun briefly about 12 years ago.  Prior to that I trained in Lau Gar Kung Fu for about 18 months until the sifu decided he really couldn't be bothered with it all (he was going through yet another life crisis).  I'd got my first four grades and working towards the 5th and don't recall ever hearing about structure and rootedness while doing Lau Gar.  

I've only started in JKD recently, but as of yet, structure in the way that it is emphasised in WC, isn't dealt with in the same way.  

That may be because it's still early days, we've been focusing on the Bai Jong, straight lead, basic footwork and basic trapping.  

We started Sil Lim Tao last week and have learned the first half and started working on the second half - will have the whole thing my head this week, together with the application.  With the modified WC element, it's possible that it is something we will go into.  I will try and remember to ask my sifu when I have my next lesson later this week.


----------



## bluewaveschool (Sep 29, 2010)

Heavenly Glory said:


> I understand that.  However, WC guys seem to make a big point about it.
> 
> Not saying right or wrong; just is.



Most guys make a big point about rooting.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 29, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> Most guys make a big point about rooting.


 

Women do as well, especially the quality of it.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 29, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Jet competed as a child, even met President Nixon on tour with his group when he was a kid.


 
Jet Li, I have been told by people in Beijing, is the real deal as far as his martial arts goes. He may know actual fighting forms along with the modern Wushu stuff. I was told he actual followed a real live Sifu in his youth and the competition to get to Beijing required he knew real CMA not just performance stuff. And if nothing else he was likely heavily trained in Sports Sanda.


----------



## Omar B (Sep 29, 2010)

http://jetli.com/jet/index.php?s=body&ss=wushuography

wushu-ography
   The following is some information about Jet's training, styles he knows and his competitive career.
*Jet's Coaches*

Jet's primary coach was Wu Bin, who served as head coach of the  Beijing Wushu Team from 1964 until the early part of the 21st century.   While Wu Bin started training wushu athletes at the Beijing Sports  School in 1964, the Beijing Wushu Team, as it is currently known, was  not formally created until 1974.  Jet, himself, started training in  wushu in 1971 at the age of 8 years old.
   During the early years of the team Cheng Huikun and Li Jinfeng also  served on the coaching staff.  In addition, many other coaches and  teachers, each with their own specialty and area of expertise, visited  the team to help train Jet and his teammates.
   The original members of the Beijing Men's Wushu Team were Li Lianjie  (Jet Li), Li Zhizhou, Li Jinheng, Tang Laiwei, Yu Shaowen, Wang Qun,  Wang Jianjun, Sun Jiaming, Dong Honglin, Cui Yahui, Yang Yongli and Yan  Ping.  On the women's team were Li Xia, Hao Zhi Hua, Zhang Gui Feng,  Wang Xiuping, Zhang Hong Mei, Ge Chunyan, Luu Yan, Hui Xuna, Huang  Qiuyan, Zhou Jingpiong, Mi Jin, Huang Xiaofeng and Zhang Dehua.  
  Contrary to popular myth, Jet never trained at the Shaolin Temple.   At the time Jet was training in wushu (late 60's and early 70's) there  were no "fighting monks" living at the Shaolin Temple​ *Styles of Wushu*

Jet specialized in the following styles:


chang quan (long fist)
dao (broadsword)
gun (staff)
fanzi quan (tumbling fist)
3-section staff
pu dao (horse chopper)
   And in addition, Jet also studied the following styles (some in more depth than others).


taiji quan (the 5 main styles)
xing yi quan
bagua zhang
jian (straightsword)
qiang (spear)
zui quan (drunken fist)
tang lang quan (mantis fist)
ying zhao quan (eagle claw boxing)
zui jian (drunken sword)
shuang dao (double broadswords)
axe
battle axe
double hooks swords
fork
9 section whip
mace
hammer
talon
trident-halberd
long-handled spear
short cudgel
meteor hammer
rope dart
 *Competition History*

The following is a brief history of Jet's wushu career:


1971: Jet begins training in wushu at an after-school program at the Beijing Sports School.
1974: Jet joins the newly created Beijing Wushu Team and begins competing on a national level.
1974: Was awarded his first Men's National All-Around Championship title at the age of 12.
1975: Men's National All-Around Championship
1976: Men's National All-Around Championship
1977: Men's National All-Around Championship
1978: Men's National All-Around Championship
1979: Retired from professional wushu competition after a knee  injury where he ripped his Anterior Crutiate Ligament (ACL) doing the  jump inside kick to split.
I hate when they say things like All-Around Champion, to me that means forms and point fighting/sparring.

Or there's this - http://www.fightingmaster.com/actors/jetli/wushu.htm


----------



## Cirdan (Sep 29, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Women do as well, especially the quality of it.


 
Tell me more about this high quality rooting...


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 29, 2010)

Omar B said:


> 1979: Retired from professional wushu competition after a knee injury where he ripped his Anterior Crutiate Ligament (ACL) doing the jump inside kick to split.


 
This has nothing to do with the thread but that bit of information, based on what Jet Li has been able to do since then, is a big help to me

Thanks


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 29, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> Tell me more about this high quality rooting...


 

Well... I'll be in Norway next year........ 

with my son and partner I hasten to add lol!

I'm guessing you looked up the Aussie meaning :ultracool


----------



## bluewaveschool (Sep 29, 2010)

hey, he said tell, not teach. :whip1:


----------



## mook jong man (Sep 29, 2010)

Q. Why is an Aussie man like a wombat ?

A. Because he eats , roots and leaves.


Q. What is an Aussie man's idea of foreplay ?

A. You awake Beryl ?


----------



## Cirdan (Sep 29, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Well... I'll be in Norway next year........
> 
> with my son and partner I hasten to add lol!
> 
> I'm guessing you looked up the Aussie meaning :ultracool


 
Aussie meanings usually have something to do with sheep. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




Should I bring one when you visit?


----------



## mook jong man (Sep 29, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> Aussie meanings usually have something to do with sheep.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Might not be a baaaaad idea.

Fair dinkum mate , how much can a Koala bear.


----------



## Steve (Sep 29, 2010)

MartialStudy said:


> As I understand it Jet Li excelled in his martial studies as a child, which is why he went on to tour with his group (didn't know he met Pres Nixon!) and went on to stardom in the HK film industry.  Don't know about Jackie Chan.
> 
> Interestingly with Bruce Lee, while he had a great deal of respect amongst the Western Martial Arts community, you have to remember that Kung Fu hadn't existed in the US for that long when he brought it to the masses, so I wonder if it might be a case of "Wow!  I've never seen anything like that before!".
> 
> ...


Yet he was a tremendously popular movie start on asia before his movies broke in the west.


----------



## ATC (Sep 30, 2010)

MartialStudy said:


> As I understand it Jet Li excelled in his martial studies as a child, which is why he went on to tour with his group (didn't know he met Pres Nixon!) and went on to stardom in the HK film industry.  Don't know about Jackie Chan.
> 
> Interestingly with Bruce Lee, while he had a great deal of respect amongst the Western Martial Arts community, you have to remember that Kung Fu hadn't existed in the US for that long when he brought it to the masses, so I wonder if it might be a case of "Wow!  I've never seen anything like that before!".
> 
> ...


Yes like Steve BJJ says. Bruce's movies were released and broke box office records in China. They did not make it to the states until later. If my memory serves me correctly it was not until Enter the Dragon that he became famous here and then his movies were re-released.

Also you seem to take only one side of the story and go with that. I wonder how much of that story is twisted due to jealousy? I think it be better to say I don't know but here's one story told by one person that can't be proven either. We just don't know if any is true or if one is true then which one?


----------



## Heavenly Glory (Sep 30, 2010)

Heavenly Glory said:


> However, there are a couple interviews I've seen with executives who were present on the set of Bruce's movies.
> 
> One tells of some Muay Thai fighters on the set of Big Boss who decided Bruce was "just an actor" and one challenged him. Bruce proceeded to beat the crap out of him.
> 
> ...


 
The documentary was called "Bruce Lee: The Intercepting Fist" and was shown on Discovery Shed back in Jan/Feb 2010.

Someone has uploaded it to YouTube.  Part one : 



 
You'll find subsequent parts in the suggestions bar down the right.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 30, 2010)

ATC said:


> Yes like Steve BJJ says. Bruce's movies were released and broke box office records in China. They did not make it to the states until later. *If my memory serves me correctly it was not until Enter the Dragon that he became famous here and then his movies were re-released.*


Enter the dragon is of note for a number of reasons.  For one, Lee apparently wanted to express his philosophy of JKD in the context of that movie. 

Secondly, and in the big picture, more importantly, Enter the dragon opened up the western world to the idea that an MA movie with a non-western lead actor could be viable.

Daniel


----------



## MartialStudy (Oct 2, 2010)

My point regarding his popularity amongst those from HK and china was specifically those in the MA scene, not the film industries - it's difficult for anyone to say he wasn't successful AND amazing in both eastern and western cinema!



> Also you seem to take only one side of the story and go with that. I wonder how much of that story is twisted due to jealousy? I think it be better to say I don't know but here's one story told by one person that can't be proven either. We just don't know if any is true or if one is true then which one?



I agree that it's practically impossible to know what happened that night, but I think I do acknowledge in the article that due to Mr Woo's lack of success, his story is laced with bitterness.  I think the point I really wanted to get across is that rarely do people talk about how thuggish Bruce Lee appears to have been.


----------



## seasoned (Oct 2, 2010)

As a young man, I watched every one of his movies. Bruce Lee was an inspiration in every sense of the word, and was instrumental in influencing martial arts in a positive way. Could he act, no. Could he fight, yes.:asian:


----------



## Master Dan (Oct 2, 2010)

Comming from some one who trained and grew up in that era. First he inspired many of us to train in MA who knew little at the time. What I can tell you is what I know. He was an obsesive trainer over training so much that to sleep he self medicated with Canabus extract very high in THC which causes thrombosis and was treated in hospitals for this. Since I know a fair amount about movie production He was so fast with his feet that at 24 frames per second analog film it had to be slowed down or it was just a blur, other things such as the jumps over the fence and knunchuka were sped up. He was challenge on the movie sets and outside typical with a toe tap and he never refused and was considerate to those who showed respect and beat a few badly that did not.

How he died?
If you know anything about ChiGong the Chinese were very jelous of that knowledge and did not want it taught to any non Chinese he would teach anyone for money or who he loved. He had a large ego and possibly sustained a head injury and self medicated which caused an anurism or as one report the one person who he seemed to beat used that as a tool to get inside for DinMak which he reported 12 hours later to be burning up which coinsides with the cycle of the body on 12 and 24 hour highs and lows. There is some negative Karma that took his son too?? seems like to much of anything can hurt you? My one good personal freind that was a world champion fighter said he was a fraud copying the Navy boxing hand book to creat his style?? I love him he inspired many and called bs on alot of tradition that did not work.


----------



## oaktree (Oct 2, 2010)

> so much that to sleep he self medicated with Canabus extract very high in THC which causes thrombosis and was treated in hospitals for this.


 Can you provide a source or link or reference to this claim?




> If you know anything about ChiGong the Chinese were very jelous of that knowledge and did not want it taught to any non Chinese he would teach anyone for money or who he loved


Can you provide proof that Bruce Lee knew Qigong(and what type) taught Qigong(again what type) and proof that Chinese were jealous of him teaching this. Please provide a source or a link or a reference.

Also note Qigong texts were published in English at least a hundred years or more by such writers as John Dudgeon,James Legge among many others.



> for DinMak which he reported 12 hours later to be burning up which coinsides with the cycle of the body on 12 and 24 hour highs and lows


 Please provide a name of a person a link a reference or source to this claim.



> My one good personal freind that was a world champion fighter said he was a fraud copying the Navy boxing hand book to creat his style?? I


 Can you provide the name of the hand book?


----------



## century bob (Nov 7, 2010)

Watch the movie from 1993: Dragon - The Bruce Lee Story.

He was pretty damn good


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 8, 2010)

century bob said:


> Watch the movie from 1993: Dragon - The Bruce Lee Story.
> 
> He was pretty damn good


Jason Scott Lee (no relation to my knowledge) portrayed Bruce in that film.  I never saw it but thank you for reminding me of it... now I have go go get it!

Daniel


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 8, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> Comming from some one who trained and grew up in that era. First he inspired many of us to train in MA who knew little at the time. What I can tell you is what I know. He was an obsesive trainer over training so much that to sleep he self medicated with Canabus extract very high in THC which causes thrombosis and was treated in hospitals for this. Since I know a fair amount about movie production He was so fast with his feet that at 24 frames per second analog film it had to be slowed down or it was just a blur, other things such as the jumps over the fence and knunchuka were sped up. He was challenge on the movie sets and outside typical with a toe tap and he never refused and was considerate to those who showed respect and beat a few badly that did not.
> 
> How he died?
> If you know anything about ChiGong the Chinese were very jelous of that knowledge and did not want it taught to any non Chinese he would teach anyone for money or who he loved. He had a large ego and possibly sustained a head injury and self medicated which caused an anurism or as one report the one person who he seemed to beat used that as a tool to get inside for DinMak which he reported 12 hours later to be burning up which coinsides with the cycle of the body on 12 and 24 hour highs and lows. There is some negative Karma that took his son too?? seems like to much of anything can hurt you? My one good personal freind that was a world champion fighter said he was a fraud copying the Navy boxing hand book to creat his style?? I love him he inspired many and called bs on alot of tradition that did not work.


 
Coming from another one who trained and grew up in that era....huh?

Qi Gong...Bruce was Wing Chun and various other fighting arts but as far as I know not Qi Gong.

I am with Oaktree here....sources please.

Beyond that this sounds like a whole lot of Theory and conjecture based on rumors and myth.


----------



## maft (Dec 10, 2010)

Hey,

In eyes he was definitely a martial arts legend, he did bong MA closer to people and made it very acceptable. 
He was, with out the doubt, great technician and very fast.

Anyway, I guess we shall never know how good he was in today's standards.

Cheers,

maft


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 10, 2010)

maft said:


> Hey,
> 
> In eyes he was definitely a martial arts legend, he did bong MA closer to people and made it very acceptable.
> He was, with out the doubt, great technician and very fast.
> ...


Definitely.  Without Lee, we would not have had many of the movies that I love today.  In my opinion, Norris, Chan, VanDamme, Segal, Lundgren, and Li would not have been able to become major stars without Bruce Lee breaking the ground first.

Daniel


----------



## clfsean (Dec 10, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Definitely.  Without Lee, we would not have had many of the movies that I love today.  In my opinion, Norris, Chan, VanDamme, Segal, Lundgren, and Li would not have been able to become major stars without Bruce Lee breaking the ground first.
> 
> Daniel



*sigh*

We could only have hoped to be as lucky as to miss them... but we're stuck with them now.


----------



## Cirdan (Dec 10, 2010)

clfsean said:


> *sigh*
> 
> We could only have hoped to be as lucky as to miss them... but we're stuck with them now.


 
Haha, I like watching a sucky Seagal movie with my hangover.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 10, 2010)

clfsean said:


> *sigh*
> 
> We could only have hoped to be as lucky as to miss them... but we're stuck with them now.


 

agreed, with the exception of Chan.  I do love his work, tho the new Karate Kid sucked. 

all the others, we could do well without.


----------



## xfighter88 (Dec 12, 2010)

I am sure he was a great martial artist and fighter. What truly made him great though was his philosphy. He was one of the first people to consider MMA. Not sure how he would fair in the cage at 135ish now. It would be fun to watch.


----------



## baborz (Dec 29, 2010)

Gotta get in on this one...o-k, there are many innovations in everything around us. Our cars,phones,computers,t.v.s, and yes even fighting, however.....The only real innovations in fighting are the integration of older martial arts together for elimination of weak points that are in every form of martial arts. That being said, the arts we are studying and practicing to perfect are thousands of years old and the older ones know it better usually. Bruce Lee was in my opinion a purist of his arts. Put him in the ring with anyone studying the exact same art and it would be very interesting to see what would occur. He was a stunning martial artist. I don't think of anyone more impressive in any one form even to this day. just my opinion...rip Bruce.


----------



## Shifu Steve (Dec 30, 2010)

baborz said:


> Bruce Lee was in my opinion a purist of his arts.



Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by saying he was a purist?  

I would argue the opposite in the sense that he was all about introducing whatever worked into his fighting system (JKD).


----------



## baborz (Jan 5, 2011)

I do stand corrected. I always thought he studied primarily Judo. As some research has proved....I was wrong as he was actually a MMA fighter in true form. He was badass to say the least!


----------



## 72ronin (Jan 10, 2011)

maft said:


> Hey,
> 
> In eyes he was definitely a martial arts legend, he did bong MA closer to people and made it very acceptable.
> He was, with out the doubt, great technician and very fast.
> ...


 
bong?... didnt he just chew it 

He was very driven to achieve his goals thats for sure. Almost seemingly to the level of well channeled OCD!
Todays standards? Is there really anything new under the sun. 

How well he would do against another 140ish pounder, now thats a serious question, i think in a different setting to his movie upbringing etc, he would have made an exceptional full contact fighter, thats unquestionable.


----------

