# SKK Combos



## MJS

Seeing that we have a number of current and former SKK people here, I thought we could take a look at and break down some of the various techniques in the system. Basically, I'm looking to discuss any problems you may have encountered or variations that you have with the techniques. To start off, I thought we could discuss #1.

Step thru right punch.

1-Step back with right leg, as you draw your left into a cat, while parrying the punch with your left.

2-Step forward with your left leg, as you wrap opponents arm with your left arm.

3-Deliver a right raking tiger claw strike to the face, following thru with a bent wrist strike.

4-Right foot steps behind opponents right leg, as you deliver a web hand (tigers mouth) strike to the throat, sweeping them down.

5-While maintaining hold of the opponents arm, deliver a right punch to the chest and a right spear hand to the throat.


Anyone have any other variations?

Mike


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## kosho

Ok here is my issue with #1
when you step back  and block and shuffle in with the second punch comeing in at you. YOU get hit. 

so I took this comb and added natural law to it. 

first you never want to move backwards to move forwards. 

with this mind. as the punch comes in step forward with your right foot avoiding the punch (by shifting your center) and deliver a back hand strike to the side of the attackers head. 

as he feels this blow you then follow threw with a right strike to the attackes jaw as your left hand swings under the attackers right elbow area.. (Wrapping it or him up) shifting there body from a 90 degree to a 45 degree you shift there center and take them to the ground. finish the teq. as you have it...

the key here is as you hit there head jaw you shift your hand threw on a 45 degree angle moveing there head back and to the right...

I can show you, but some times it is hard to write. as I am still healing from surgery...

thanks,
 steve

I think this is a great idear to break down all comb...


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## donald

What is SKK?
1stJohn1:9


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## kosho

Shaolin Kempo karate


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## DavidCC

We do #1 pretty much the same... instead of stepping our right leg behind the atackers for the take down, we step back to 6 with our left foot, timed with the strike to the throat. Their right foot should be fully weighted after the strikes, setting up a pivot point over their right foot, so the take down without the step-behind works well.

As for the second punch, that's not really the "ideal phase" (to borrow a concept from AK), but it can be addressed. I think if you are expecting a follow-up left attack, it can be stopped as you step in by an outward block, and your forward movement puts you inside the expected range of the strike, which should also help smother its power. The outward block puts your right in position for the strikes to the head... 

I've found that a bigger problem than the left punch is the forward movement of the attacker as they deliver the punch. Your step back in response to his right is going to entice him, if he is inclined to throw the left, to move forward as he throws it. So now you and he are both trying to move forward into the same space. You should be in control of his right shoulder by now... any takes on that?

-D


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## marlon

we do not step directly back but to 5:00.  The angle takes you out of the direct line of attack as you sink into the cat stance your wieght (in the downward monkey block)and the attackers momentum unbalances the attacker as you step in for the wrap (the step in is really a powerful continuation of balance disruption) the left hand can rake across the face (covering) and the crane head strike is the same as Kosho's b/c you never want to step berhind someone for a take down while thier balance (straight spine) is in tact.
the cat stance allows you to coil for explosive power.  If in your follow up move, you lead with your center the strike is exponentially increased in power with minimal muscular effort.  the control of the arm in the takedown gives one many options to immobilize, dislocate, and control the attacker.  The techniques takes less than 5 seconds to execute and works well against hook punches left or right and someone attacking with multiple strikes

Respectfully,
marlon


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## fnorfurfoot

We use #1 combination as a defense against a right hook punch rather than a straight punch.  Here is how we do it:

1. Left foot steps forward with a left block that wraps over the attackers arm and secures it at elbow position.

2. Right hand rakes a tiger's claw across the face from right to left then strikes face or temple with a chicken wrist (or ox head depending on your terminology)

3. Right foot sweeps the attacker's right leg and the right hand does a ridge hand strike to the throat or face knocking the attacker backwards to the ground

4. Right thrust punch to ribs and then a right knife hand strike to the collar bone, face, or throat.


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## MJS

kosho said:


> Ok here is my issue with #1
> when you step back and block and shuffle in with the second punch comeing in at you. YOU get hit.
> 
> so I took this comb and added natural law to it.


 
This was one thing that really caught my attention when I switched to EPAK, that being the "What if" phase of the techniques.  Now, maybe I was just missing that aspect while doing SKK, but as far as I can recall, I never saw anyone looking at that phase.  Certainly something to take into consideration though.




> with this mind. as the punch comes in step forward with your right foot avoiding the punch (by shifting your center) and deliver a back hand strike to the side of the attackers head.


 
I'm assuming that this is done with the left?



> as he feels this blow you then follow threw with a right strike to the attackes jaw as your left hand swings under the attackers right elbow area.. (Wrapping it or him up) shifting there body from a 90 degree to a 45 degree you shift there center and take them to the ground. finish the teq. as you have it...
> 
> the key here is as you hit there head jaw you shift your hand threw on a 45 degree angle moveing there head back and to the right...


 
Interesting.  I'll have to try this. 



> I can show you, but some times it is hard to write. as I am still healing from surgery...


 
Maybe we could set up a workout sometime.  I'm in CT.  Not sure how far into MA you are.




> I think this is a great idear to break down all comb...


 
I do this with some of the EPAK and Tracy techs. so I thought I'd give it a shot with the SKK ones.  Its always interesting to see what else is out there. 

Mike


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## kosho

MJS,
        I would love to come down to CT and work out with you some time. RIGHT now I am healing from Shoulder surgery. I was told 3 - 6 months to get full use back. I am in Orange ma, just about 25 min from route 91.
my email is wowchess1311@yahoo.com  send me more info  also if you have a web page.
as far as comb #1 there are a lot of good concepts to how and why it works. I would like to more to comb # 2 now. As I do not do it the SKK way anymore. I will have someone post  and I will post mine after. Hope all is well for everyone.
 steve


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## fnorfurfoot

Combination #2

1. Step back into a side fighting horse stance with your left foot (another way would be to step forward and to the right with the right foot, then step backwards with the left)

2. Right hand does a #3 block

3. Right back punch to face

4. Shuffle forward with a backward elbow to solar plexus or face (Stance should end up along side or even slightly past attacker's stance)

5. Right hand sweeps attacker's left leg

6. Right knife hand strike to groin.


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## kosho

I teach this the same way as posted. But only to the kids at the age of 15 and under.  At 16  and older I add the Kosho Idears to this comb.

First pre set your balance and feet to your left. so the attackers is draw towards hitting you colser to your left side. as the shoulder starts to move and the punch comes in you shift your body to the right and deliver a right driving shuto the the attackers right shoulder. as your feet shuffle out as in the same movement. before the punch is in full motion. as the person shifts there balance you deliver and they feel the weight in there hips and feet get locked for a second. you deliver a cross hand shuto to there face driving it back on a 45 degree angle. as there weight shifts on to the back of there heals you drive a right elbow into there chest. 
this will take them to the ground and they will fall. as they hit the ground a right shuto to the groin and cross and cover.

comb # 2 is all based on a 1 hand defense teq: so  if you follow what I wrote you will see that the teq: is really close to how it is done in SKK.
but with Kosho Idears...

with the second punch in mind 8 out of 10 times you could get hit by the second punch. with the shifting of weight in the hips and the freezeing that takes place you now control what the attacker can and can not do...
with what i have changed...
steve


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## marlon

The block- strike with the same hand at the begiinning of #2 usually takes care of the second punch by either being a block or a strike to the head preventing force from the second punch and severely disrupting the balance of the attacker.  you must step in with the punch.  Very effective and i do not see the need for the adjustments mentioned unless you wait between the block and the strike.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## shaolin ninja 4

marlon said:


> The block- strike with the same hand at the begiinning of #2 usually takes care of the second punch by either being a block or a strike to the head preventing force from the second punch and severely disrupting the balance of the attacker. you must step in with the punch. Very effective and i do not see the need for the adjustments mentioned unless you wait between the block and the strike.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Hey Marlon,
I just check Prof. I web site and you are no longer on it , what happened?


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## Gufbal1982

MJS said:


> Seeing that we have a number of current and former SKK people here, I thought we could take a look at and break down some of the various techniques in the system. Basically, I'm looking to discuss any problems you may have encountered or variations that you have with the techniques. To start off, I thought we could discuss #1.
> 
> Step thru right punch.
> 
> 1-Step back with right leg, as you draw your left into a cat, while parrying the punch with your left.
> 
> 2-Step forward with your left leg, as you wrap opponents arm with your left arm.
> 
> 3-Deliver a right raking tiger claw strike to the face, following thru with a bent wrist strike.
> 
> 4-Right foot steps behind opponents right leg, as you deliver a web hand (tigers mouth) strike to the throat, sweeping them down.
> 
> 5-While maintaining hold of the opponents arm, deliver a right punch to the chest and a right spear hand to the throat.
> 
> 
> Anyone have any other variations?
> 
> Mike


 
I have this as:

Step thru right punch.

1-Step back with right leg, as you draw your left into a cat, while parrying the punch with your left.

2-Step forward with your left leg, as you wrap opponents arm with your left arm.

3-Deliver a right sideways palm strike to the jaw, following thru with a bent wrist strike.

4-Right foot steps behind opponents right leg, as you deliver a web hand (tigers mouth) strike to the throat, sweeping them down.

5-While maintaining hold of the opponents arm, deliver a right punch to the chest and a right spear hand to the throat.

I have also seen it as:

Step thru right punch.

1-Step back with right leg, as you draw your left into a cat, while parrying the punch with your left.

2-Step forward with your left leg, rake the face with a tiger claw before, you wrap opponents arm with your left arm.

3-Deliver a right raking tiger claw strike to the face, following thru with a bent wrist strike.

4-Right foot steps behind opponents right leg, as you deliver a web hand (tigers mouth) strike to the throat, sweeping them down.

5-While maintaining hold of the opponents arm, deliver a right punch to the chest and a right rolling shuto to the throat.


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## Gufbal1982

fnorfurfoot said:


> Combination #2
> 
> 1. Step back into a side fighting horse stance with your left foot (another way would be to step forward and to the right with the right foot, then step backwards with the left)
> 
> 2. Right hand does a #3 block
> 
> 3. Right back punch to face
> 
> 4. Shuffle forward with a backward elbow to solar plexus or face (Stance should end up along side or even slightly past attacker's stance)
> 
> 5. Right hand sweeps attacker's left leg
> 
> 6. Right knife hand strike to groin.


 

I used teach this as:

1. box step

2. Right hand does a #3 block to attack the radial nerve

3. Right backfist punch to the nose (the crying button!)

4. Shuffle forward with a side elbow to the sternum (the shot to the sternum knocks your opponent balance point backwards so that way the sweep will work, plus your opponents right leg should line up to be in the middle of your side horse stance)

5. as your opponents balance is going backwards, right hand sweeps attacker's left leg

6. Right knife hand strike to groin, cross and cover.


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## Touch Of Death

Wouldn't margin for error discourage you from meeting the attack while  moving your foot back to a cat? Are you intending to meet the attack in a counter-balance?
Sean


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## marlon

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Hey Marlon,
> I just check Prof. I web site and you are no longer on it , what happened?


 

I have not paid yet that is all

Marlon


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## Gufbal1982

Touch Of Death said:


> Wouldn't margin for error discourage you from meeting the attack while moving your foot back to a cat? Are you intending to meet the attack in a counter-balance?
> Sean


 

you should be drawing back to hallow out the body.  that is the reason why you draw in a cat...to create that reaction for the street.


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## MJS

kosho said:


> MJS,
> I would love to come down to CT and work out with you some time. RIGHT now I am healing from Shoulder surgery. I was told 3 - 6 months to get full use back. I am in Orange ma, just about 25 min from route 91.
> my email is wowchess1311@yahoo.com send me more info also if you have a web page.


 
Sounds good.  I'll shoot you a PM.



> as far as comb #1 there are a lot of good concepts to how and why it works. I would like to more to comb # 2 now. As I do not do it the SKK way anymore. I will have someone post and I will post mine after. Hope all is well for everyone.
> steve


 
I have #2 as follows:

Step into a side horse with your rt. foot.  

Deliver a rt. inward block, followed by an uppercut to the chin/face.

Step left foot to rt. then step out with rt. foot to the outside of opponents left leg, as you deliver a rt. elbow strike to chest.

Step back slightly with left leg, as you sweep opponents left leg.

Step forward with left, checking opponents right leg with your left hand, as you deliver a right driving swordhand to groin.


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## RevIV

MJS said:


> Seeing that we have a number of current and former SKK people here, I thought we could take a look at and break down some of the various techniques in the system. Basically, I'm looking to discuss any problems you may have encountered or variations that you have with the techniques. To start off, I thought we could discuss #1.
> 
> Step thru right punch.
> 
> 1-Step back with right leg, as you draw your left into a cat, while parrying the punch with your left.
> 
> 2-Step forward with your left leg, as you wrap opponents arm with your left arm.
> 
> 3-Deliver a right raking tiger claw strike to the face, following thru with a bent wrist strike.
> 
> 4-Right foot steps behind opponents right leg, as you deliver a web hand (tigers mouth) strike to the throat, sweeping them down.
> 
> 5-While maintaining hold of the opponents arm, deliver a right punch to the chest and a right spear hand to the throat.
> 
> 
> Anyone have any other variations?
> 
> Mike


 

The moves for me are the same but the timing and attack are different.  the first parry is for a RT front kick.  as you step back in, LT hand blocks RT hook and wraps arm while striking face at same time with palm.  The bent wrist then comes back to side right away and blocks a left hook, instead striking the face.  next take down and finish right punch chest, right knife hand neck.
Jesse.


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## Gufbal1982

Kosho:  what kind of shoulder surgery?  I had ACH repair and I will tell you this as a person that's been there already...you will never be 100% normal again.  Take it easy when you are going back into training...


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## kosho

Thats whats great about this SKK everyone see's and feels things differently. but as long as the end resault is the person is safe thats all that matters. I also see on your web page marlon you got your 
4th degree GREAT JOB..
 steve


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## kosho

*Kosho: what kind of shoulder surgery? I had ACH repair and I will tell you this as a person that's been there already...you will never be 100% normal again. Take it easy when you are going back into training*...

My left shoulder:  I have 5 small marks in that area. The DR. went in and shaved some of the bone away and fixed a grinding broken chip that was caught makeing more damage then good.  he said all the muscle and ligaments look great. most of my pain is right in the top of where my colar bone meets. I belive it is the same surgery. PT started  and we are working range of motion right now.  It is truly pain full to more and I can't raise it up to far. Mostly ice I am told... I took my self off the pain meds.......
steve


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## kosho

COMB # 3

with all the combs and what not. as with time. things change as you grow. 

I teach the teq from a grab, punch, 2, 3 punches a kick, what ever. once you have a teq. it should be tested from any and all ways of attack.
ever the octogon angles. 

I strike the liver area of the person body. ( this truly causes many issues)
once they are hit I check or freeze there next movement. ( kosho idears)
I then strike there temple and shift there body by moveing my right hand across there jaw shifting them 45 degrees to there left. as there body shifts I take my left hand and place it into there right kidney area.
as I push with my left  and pull with my right the body creates a fold.
that is truly when a throw can take place. as the person is taken off there feet i finish the teq. with a punch  and i cross up and out I don't teq and stay in a lunge stance. once you are a green belt should aways be moveing twice.
 steve


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## marlon

kosho said:


> COMB # 3
> 
> with all the combs and what not. as with time. things change as you grow.
> 
> I teach the teq from a grab, punch, 2, 3 punches a kick, what ever. once you have a teq. it should be tested from any and all ways of attack.
> ever the octogon angles.
> 
> I strike the liver area of the person body. ( this truly causes many issues)
> once they are hit I check or freeze there next movement. ( kosho idears)
> I then strike there temple and shift there body by moveing my right hand across there jaw shifting them 45 degrees to there left. as there body shifts I take my left hand and place it into there right kidney area.
> as I push with my left and pull with my right the body creates a fold.
> that is truly when a throw can take place. as the person is taken off there feet i finish the teq. with a punch and i cross up and out I don't teq and stay in a lunge stance. once you are a green belt should aways be moveing twice.
> steve


 

Hey Steve, take care of your injury so you can fully recover.  Tom teches freezing also.  interesting.  As for the cross and cover, i was taught from white belt to move twice.  The reason being that sk is built for multiple attackers so you need to move and visualize 360, we always move twice.  I like training the teq from different attacks, although i had one student complain that 'it wasn't combo #2 b/c of the adjustments necessary against a kick.  He had a lot of difficulty with thinking of them as concepts and not just teq.s he said it made it seem as though we were practicing Kimo's stuff ...  Well he quit and is not happy with taiji were applications never change for him.  Everyone can find something they like in martial arts

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## MJS

kosho said:


> COMB # 3
> 
> with all the combs and what not. as with time. things change as you grow.
> 
> I teach the teq from a grab, punch, 2, 3 punches a kick, what ever. once you have a teq. it should be tested from any and all ways of attack.
> ever the octogon angles.
> 
> I strike the liver area of the person body. ( this truly causes many issues)
> once they are hit I check or freeze there next movement. ( kosho idears)
> I then strike there temple and shift there body by moveing my right hand across there jaw shifting them 45 degrees to there left. as there body shifts I take my left hand and place it into there right kidney area.
> as I push with my left and pull with my right the body creates a fold.
> that is truly when a throw can take place. as the person is taken off there feet i finish the teq. with a punch and i cross up and out I don't teq and stay in a lunge stance. once you are a green belt should aways be moveing twice.
> steve


 
From the rt. punch, I step with my left to 10:00, while doing a simultaneous left parry and rt. vertical punch to the ribs.

Left hand tracks up the arm, grabbing the shoulder area and pulling them into a right upper cut to the face.

Still maintaining a grab with the left, I then reach over to their left shoulder, grabbing with my right, as I pull them in and step my right foot to my left.

I then step back with my right foot, executing a left punch to the face as they are taken down.

Cover out.


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## fnorfurfoot

MJS said:


> From the rt. punch, I step with my left to 10:00, while doing a simultaneous left parry and rt. vertical punch to the ribs.
> 
> Left hand tracks up the arm, grabbing the shoulder area and pulling them into a right upper cut to the face.
> 
> Still maintaining a grab with the left, I then reach over to their left shoulder, grabbing with my right, as I pull them in and step my right foot to my left.
> 
> I then step back with my right foot, executing a left punch to the face as they are taken down.
> 
> Cover out.


 
Ours if very similar to yours.  We step forward and to the left with our left foot while delivering a right front punch to the bladder (or it could be a ridge hand strike to the groin.  The left hand acts as a check, because the main focus is side-stepping the punch rather than blocking it.  If he happens to follow your movements with his punch, then it's there to block if needed.

The left hand controls his shoulder and pulls down while the right hand delivers a back punch to the temple.

The right hand snakes behind the attacker's neck and hooks under where the jaw and the carotid artery meet.  The right hand pulls to elbow position which spins him around and you throw him backward to the ground while you step your right foot out of the way to the left.  As he is falling, deliver a left thrust punch to the solar plexus.


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## kosho

Hi,
     marlon  yes I agree i think all teq. should be tested at different angles and what not. MJS  The way you have it is the way I learned it in the 80's.
 I have changed it some what But if I was testing for rank you and marlon and others would see the comb # 3 in what i was doing. Lets go to # 4.
marlon you post this first.
 best to all. steve
Marlon.  how far is your Dojo from Orange ma? I was talking to the wife and we maybe going into canada for a vacation... would be nice to see you and maybe work out. depends on where you are?
steve


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## marlon

Combo #4
Slight step back with the rt leg with a right rising block (more like slipping under the punch) clockwise circullar motion with the right arm clockwise (from the block you should have contact with the scapulla to be most effective with the circular motion) continue motion into a lt to rt downward tiger rake across the face with  a half beat differential into a rt roundhouse that follows through ie not a competion kick but one that uses the hips and strikes with a downward force.  land in  a dragon stance to regain balance from the all out kick.  rt axe  or stomp the the groin of fallen attacker jump on the head and follow up strikes (i have had a rt lt front punch to the cheek bones then immortal man's to the eyes then trigger fingers to the temples or double front punches or only the rt lt punches)ending with a blade kick to the lt side of the attacker's head.  Although, i really prefer the ending Danjo has from kajukenbo or is it from Pesare?  I once was told that after the round house the techniques ended...
we really emphasize the slip of the attack rather than blocking and the rt arm functions more as a guard and a way to establish contact.  The contact area (scapulla) is very good for sensing your opponents movement and for disrupting their balance with minimal effort.

Ok that's 4 the way i have it!
Let's learn

Respectfully,
Marlon

Steve i live in Montreal, Quebec about 4.5 hours out of Boston.  i am not quite sure exactly where Orange county is, and it would be great to have you come up.


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## bill007

marlon said:


> I like training the teq from different attacks, although i had one student complain that 'it wasn't combo #2 b/c of the adjustments necessary against a kick. He had a lot of difficulty with thinking of them as concepts and not just teq.s he said it made it seem as though we were practicing Kimo's stuff ... Well he quit and is not happy with taiji were applications never change for him. Everyone can find something they like in martial arts
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Hi Marlon, it's really hard to change for some people, I'm cross training in NCK now with some basic technique from Master Chun jr. and I have a hard time because it bring me out of my comfort zone, but I'm sure it will be good at last for my skills.

Dom


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## marlon

Dom,
if you never get out of your comfort zone you are not growing.  I am glad that you are keeping up your training.  Come by and teach us a thing or two whenever you like.  BTW where are you training NCK.  Have you seen Gilles at all?

Respectfully,
marlon


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## fnorfurfoot

We train 4 combination for a right hammer strike or downward club attack.

Instead of stepping backwards with the right foot, we step forward and to the left with our left foot with the right overhead block that redirects the downward motion between the attacker's legs.  Then the right hand circles around with a raking tiger's claw from left to right.

Right roundhouse kick to the face then land in a twist stance.  From here you can cross out or continue with the attacker laying on the ground.

Right stomp to groin.  Jump onto his face with both feet together but land in a horse stance straddling his head.  Right then left punches to the face followed by a right stomping side kick to head.


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## bill007

marlon said:


> Dom,
> if you never get out of your comfort zone you are not growing. I am glad that you are keeping up your training. Come by and teach us a thing or two whenever you like. BTW where are you training NCK. Have you seen Gilles at all?
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
I'm still training with sensei Masson and with Christian Rondeau in St-Jérôme in NCK but I really don't know where is Gilles for now, I will ask around, let me talk with Shihan Poulin and if it's ok with him it will be a pleasure for me to come by and share one or two things.

Dom


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## kosho

Yes I have it the same way. or that is how I was shown it. I now teach this with a few things  being different.

As the punch comes in I do not step back. I step forward. (with my Left foot.)and do the same block. and a tiger rake across the face ( jaw) I then take my right hand and deliver a driving shuto to the attackers colar bone area. this freezes his motion for his next strike.  as my left hand touches the right kidney of my attacker. this take the attacker down/ ( as far as the round house kick, I do a knee check as i touch the kidney ) the attacker goes down. i then step threw and kick the face and a right punch  then left punch. cross and cover.

This is done from grabs and what not. i have all my students work different self defense teq. with in comb's. to make sure it works, no matter what attack happens. 

I teach the kids the old way I do it. it keeps me rooted to SKK,
and I then show them as they get older the new way.

 with the round house kick and the step back. to get this off is sometimes really hard. I have added kosho idears threw all my SKK.

steve


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## DavidCC

Combo #2



Gufbal1982 said:


> I used teach this as:
> 
> 1. box step
> 
> 2. Right hand does a #3 block to attack the radial nerve
> 
> 3. Right backfist punch to the nose (the crying button!)
> 
> 4. Shuffle forward with a side elbow to the sternum (the shot to the sternum knocks your opponent balance point backwards so that way the sweep will work, plus your opponents right leg should line up to be in the middle of your side horse stance)
> 
> 5. as your opponents balance is going backwards, right hand sweeps attacker's left leg
> 
> 6. Right knife hand strike to groin, cross and cover.


 
We do this a bit differently...

1. box step to face 1030, while doing a #3 block, followed quickly by a #2 block as right hand comes back to right ear (elbow at sholder level, right fist vertical) (serves as check or block to a possible left punch, and sets up the...)

2. right hammer fist to left temple, follow through to your left shoulder

3. double strike : right backfist to nose with left thrust punch to solar plexus

4. right hand rolls down for hammer fist to groin as left hand checks lower centerline

5. right rising ridge hand to throat (since the groin shot bent them forward)  (after my trip to MSU I have been looking at using their "obscure elbow" here, it is very effective)

it is usually necessary to shuffle forward between 3,4,5 to stay "in the pocket"


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## MJS

kosho said:


> Yes I have it the same way. or that is how I was shown it. I now teach this with a few things being different.
> 
> As the punch comes in I do not step back. I step forward. (with my Left foot.)and do the same block. and a tiger rake across the face ( jaw) I then take my right hand and deliver a driving shuto to the attackers colar bone area. this freezes his motion for his next strike. as my left hand touches the right kidney of my attacker. this take the attacker down/ ( as far as the round house kick, I do a knee check as i touch the kidney ) the attacker goes down. i then step threw and kick the face and a right punch then left punch. cross and cover.
> 
> This is done from grabs and what not. i have all my students work different self defense teq. with in comb's. to make sure it works, no matter what attack happens.
> 
> I teach the kids the old way I do it. it keeps me rooted to SKK,
> and I then show them as they get older the new way.
> 
> with the round house kick and the step back. to get this off is sometimes really hard. I have added kosho idears threw all my SKK.
> 
> steve


 
Hey Steve!

I have to say, that #4 was one technique that I really was never fond of.  While the first few moves make sense, I just couldn't see the opponent necessarily dropping after that roundhouse kick.  

I'm having a hard time visualizing your method of doing this technique.  In your breakdown, you state that you're stepping forward, not back.  Assuming that you're doing this defense off of a rt. punch, doesn't stepping forward, rather than on an angle, put you in a bad position, for the initial block?  Also, could you explain your method of taking the person down?

Of course, some things are easier understood in person, rather than written.  Hopefully, if you make it down over the Summer, I can see this method live. 

Mike


----------



## kosho

MJS.
        Yes this summer you will see and feel what I mean.  as far as stepping forward you step on Octagon angle 5 and then move to center. as you deliver the Block. you basical never really make a blocking contact. 
as you deliver the tiger strike to the face ( jaw).
as far as the take down. you are creating a fold. with out a fold there can truly never be a throw. your Left hand is pressing into the attackers right kidney area. as your right hand is controlling the attacker left side of his bidy. by the colar bone. this is just after you freeze his motion. yet something else you must feel to under stand. 
with the knee check to his lower right knee this shifts his body and helps all the other points to creat a throw. once down finish as you will.
with the stander or what not. I tell mystudents if in dark ally and alone. finish for your life.
If people around finish to be safe and move on... If uo know what I mean. LOL
But yes i look forward to coming down this summer and meating you  and shareing idears.
 kosho


----------



## kosho

*Comb # 5*

punch comes in and you shift your body left foot to right and step out as you deliver a # 3 block. then follow up with a back 2 knuckle punch to the attackers face. then a right side blade kick to the attackers solar plex area. and cross and cover.

this is how I learned this comb.

I teach it this way and as the student grows I add kosho idears to it.
and what not. 

*Marlon*  do you have comb # 81 I learned this from Shihan I. and had a ? on it.
thanks,
Kosho


----------



## MJS

kosho said:


> *Comb # 5*
> 
> punch comes in and you shift your body left foot to right and step out as you deliver a # 3 block. then follow up with a back 2 knuckle punch to the attackers face. then a right side blade kick to the attackers solar plex area. and cross and cover.


 
Everything is the same for me, with the exception of the initial block and movement of the feet.  I step more towards 1:00 with my right foot.  The block is a knife hand/bent wrist combination.  

Mike


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## kosho

YES.  I also have that way. I was shown both. I teach it as 5 beg. and 5 adv.
Kosho


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## Kosho-Monk

Hello All,

This is a great thread.  

MJS, Sensei Bonk (Kosho) is one of my students and I hope he (and maybe me, too) can visit you sometime in the near future. 

I will be posting soon on my website, www.evanskempo.com, the first 20 skk combinations done the "kosho" way.  I'll post here when I have them up and provide a link.  I've also been thinking that it would be nice to host a regular Kosho-style video lesson.  I'll talk to my team and I'm sure we'll start putting that together soon.  I think it would be great for others to really see the Kosho differences.  (and similarities)

The one thing to remember is that whatever is shown in video represents a single moment and not "the" way to do it.  Kosho teaches us to let go of technique and become aware of what is happening in the moment.  Also, there is no better person to demonstrate Kosho than Hanshi Bruce Juchnik.  He truly is the master of this art.  

One more point on the skk combinations.  When I started changing these nearly 10 years ago one of my goals was to follow the teachings of Kosho as I made the modifications.  One major thing I had to take into account was that a person continues to move after the initial strike.  In Kosho we tend to call this Secondary Rotation.

I also worked in lessons like; move twice, the 90, timing, freezing, leaning factor, folding, 7/10, "dot man" (my own idea), etc.  For me, the skk combos went from a struggle to something very effective and adaptable to all situations.

Anyway, this is a great thread.  I hope to find more time to post here on a more regular basis.


With respect,
John Evans
www.evanskempo.com


----------



## fnorfurfoot

5 Combination

Right foot steps forward and to the right and the left foot slides to the right into a side fighting horse stance.  The block is made up of a left downward palm and a right chicken wrist.  This acts as more of a strike to their wrist than a strict block.  The right hand then strikes the face with a backfist.  Finish with a right side kick to the ribs.


----------



## DavidCC

fnorfurfoot said:


> 5 Combination
> 
> Right foot steps forward and to the right and the left foot slides to the right into a side fighting horse stance. The block is made up of a left downward palm and a right chicken wrist. This acts as more of a strike to their wrist than a strict block. The right hand then strikes the face with a backfist. Finish with a right side kick to the ribs.


 
This is nearly identical to how we do this technique.  Our block is a vertical knife hand and crane's wrist. After the block, we grab the wrist with the left hand. We do the kick and backfist together.  These differences may be only in the way we write it


----------



## MJS

Kosho-Monk said:


> Hello All,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a great thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glad you like it.   There have been many discussions on EPAK and Tracy material, so I figured that it would be nice to have one for SKK as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MJS, Sensei Bonk (Kosho) is one of my students and I hope he (and maybe me, too) can visit you sometime in the near future.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It would be my pleasure to have both of you down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will be posting soon on my website, www.evanskempo.com, the first 20 skk combinations done the "kosho" way. I'll post here when I have them up and provide a link. I've also been thinking that it would be nice to host a regular Kosho-style video lesson. I'll talk to my team and I'm sure we'll start putting that together soon. I think it would be great for others to really see the Kosho differences. (and similarities)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Looking forward to that!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, this is a great thread. I hope to find more time to post here on a more regular basis.
> 
> 
> With respect,
> John Evans
> www.evanskempo.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I look forward to hearing more from you.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


----------



## kosho

MJS.
        Good that means less work for me this summer if Master Evans comes down with me...  I will drink more Coffee.  LOL
Shoulder still hurting.   but still going to class.
Comb # 6  The leg is longer then the arm...
Front ball kick to the attackers center and cross and cover.

I have it now as a shift and change ( move left ) or (right) and deliver a front ball kick to the lower ribs. a Block if needed.
cross and cover. (always moving)
Kosho


----------



## Hand Sword

I had those years back too. It was last changed to a kick to the groin, with a block as needed.


----------



## MJS

kosho said:


> MJS.
> Good that means less work for me this summer if Master Evans comes down with me... I will drink more Coffee. LOL


 
LOL!



> Shoulder still hurting. but still going to class.


 
Yeah, unfortunately, this sounds like one of those injuries thats going to take a while.  A few years ago, I injured my knee while grappling.  I was wondering if was ever going to heal, but with some rest and exercises to help strengthen it back up, I was back in no time. 



> Comb # 6 The leg is longer then the arm...
> Front ball kick to the attackers center and cross and cover.


 
Same here.

Mike


----------



## fnorfurfoot

Does anyone actually do combo 6 differently?  It is so basic.  How could you change it other than possibly throwing in a block.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

When I first learned #6 combination I was taught to stand in place and time my front kick just right. Kosho teaches to move at different angles in order to not take on another person's body mass. 

#6 is pretty basic, but, if you take the time to really study this technique you can find great lessons. Learning how to step into a rooted position to deliver a kick is just one lesson that can be learned from this. You can also work on distancing and begin to feel comfortable delivering a front kick in close and further back.

As I sit here and type the thoughts of controlling a person's secondary rotation in order to create more time to throw the kick come to mind. I'm also thinking about how I could engage the attacker's tunnel vision in order to aid in being able to kick him with less of a chance of my movement being seen. And then there's the thoughts of being able to kick with 7/10 (kosho principle) so I hopefully won't have to kick him again.

Come to think of it, maybe #6 combination isn't so basic afterall.


----------



## fnorfurfoot

Kosho-Monk said:


> When I first learned #6 combination I was taught to stand in place and time my front kick just right. Kosho teaches to move at different angles in order to not take on another person's body mass.
> 
> #6 is pretty basic, but, if you take the time to really study this technique you can find great lessons. Learning how to step into a rooted position to deliver a kick is just one lesson that can be learned from this. You can also work on distancing and begin to feel comfortable delivering a front kick in close and further back.
> 
> As I sit here and type the thoughts of controlling a person's secondary rotation in order to create more time to throw the kick come to mind. I'm also thinking about how I could engage the attacker's tunnel vision in order to aid in being able to kick him with less of a chance of my movement being seen. And then there's the thoughts of being able to kick with 7/10 (kosho principle) so I hopefully won't have to kick him again.
> 
> Come to think of it, maybe #6 combination isn't so basic afterall.


 
I am a little confused about your moving around to do 6 combination.  If you move your left foot, I would say that you are now doing 7 combination.  We use 6 to explain the simple concept that a leg is longer than their arms.  7 combination is about adjusting distance and angles.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

I would argue that it doesn't matter if your leg is longer if your attacker is moving in quickly and weighs more than 50lbs.  When dealing with movement and body mass one would be wise to move first and strike back second.

Try this drill out - 

Have a partner hold one of the large kicking shields.  Have him move around and, at some random time, step straight in at you.  All you have to do is kick the pad hard enough to stop him.  His goal should be to plow right through you.

In #7 combination I view this as being more unprepared and thus the reason we step to a back angle.  The body is turned sideways hence the reason a side kick is executed.

In Kosho we study action -vs- reaction.  When a person strikes at us it takes time, especially if we're not 100% ready, to react to what's happening.  We also understand that taking on body mass is usually not a very good idea.  Especially when you attacker weighs more than you.

Take an average 135lbs woman who's being attacked by an average 200lbs man.  Do you really think she would do best by standing still and trying to time her kick just right?  I would say no to that.

I always teach my students to move offline from the attack and, by using Kosho principles, take over the situation using less of their own energy.


----------



## Gufbal1982

fnorfurfoot said:


> I am a little confused about your moving around to do 6 combination. If you move your left foot, I would say that you are now doing 7 combination. We use 6 to explain the simple concept that a leg is longer than their arms. 7 combination is about adjusting distance and angles.


 
I've learned combination 6 many different ways.  I've learned it with just the front ball kick to the solar plexus, front ball kick with a dragon hook block, front ball kick with an iron fortress block, front ball kick with a dragon trap block...it's all the same concept though...timing.  You have to time the kick just right otherwise length won't matter.  Besides...I have short legs and a tall person's arm is somethings longer than my leg.  HOWEVER, a variation of 6 is to kick the to shin as they are stepping in.  a good drill is to get muay thai shin guards and do it that way.

If you are a Fred Villari student, I'll tell you that I was taught that it's about slipping the punch for combination 7.  You barely move your foot to get out of the way of the punch.  Once again, 7 has many targets such as the armpit (FVSSD thing), ribs and knee.  

Remember this...combinations are just fancy ways to learn how to apply fighting principles you learn in the dojo, to the street and real life.


----------



## Gufbal1982

kosho said:


> *Comb # 5*
> 
> punch comes in and you shift your body left foot to right and step out as you deliver a # 3 block. then follow up with a back 2 knuckle punch to the attackers face. then a right side blade kick to the attackers solar plex area. and cross and cover.
> 
> this is how I learned this comb.
> 
> I teach it this way and as the student grows I add kosho idears to it.
> and what not.
> 
> *Marlon* do you have comb # 81 I learned this from Shihan I. and had a ? on it.
> thanks,
> Kosho


 

Here's how I have 5:

Box step (if in a horse stance) or hinge step forward (if in a left foot forward, right foot back on guard).  Execute a simultaneous left hand outward knife with a right hand chicken wrist underneath to push the arm away clearing for a right backfist to the nose, while the left hand checks the opponent's arm.  Right side thrust kick to the ribs, cross and cover. 

A side blade kick to the solar plexus wouldn't fit.  It's such a small target you'd have to hit it with the back end of your heal.  

What can I say, I like hitting the nose.


----------



## kosho

OK.
     Comb # 6  I look at this as if you had a apple and a car was coming at you. you threw the apple at the car hit the windshield the apple explosed. and you get hit or run over.
If you take and step just out of the way and threw the apple into the car 
by the open window and hit the person the car crashes. you are safe.
Yes it teaches us the leg is longer then the arm, but as you grow in SKK, or any art. Black belts and upper ranks should not look and move like under ranks. 
Comb # 5  If you do not check the rotation of the person attacking you for the second punch you will get hit. unless you change your angle and hit instead of blocking. 
marlon I got my ans. for comb 81  Thanks,
 Kosho


----------



## marlon

kosho said:


> MJS.
> Good that means less work for me this summer if Master Evans comes down with me... I will drink more Coffee. LOL
> Shoulder still hurting. but still going to class.
> Comb # 6 The leg is longer then the arm...
> Front ball kick to the attackers center and cross and cover.
> 
> I have it now as a shift and change ( move left ) or (right) and deliver a front ball kick to the lower ribs. a Block if needed.
> cross and cover. (always moving)
> Kosho


 
I teach it first with blocks  4 then 1  emphasizing to effect the attackers balance with the double  block  (i have been taught that the double block is core kempo).  Then the advanced way is the leg is longer than the arm.  No movement as it goes with sensitivity training to recognize when someone is going to attack.  But i like teaching early to effect the attacker's alignment with the blocks.  7 i teach with a shift evaision and kick with a arm cover / guard that could be a block but i emphasize teaching the student to slip the attack

Marlon


----------



## MJS

Gufbal1982 said:


> I've learned combination 6 many different ways. I've learned it with just the front ball kick to the solar plexus, front ball kick with a dragon hook block, *front ball kick with an iron fortress block,* front ball kick with a dragon trap block...it's all the same concept though...timing. You have to time the kick just right otherwise length won't matter. Besides...I have short legs and a tall person's arm is somethings longer than my leg. HOWEVER, a variation of 6 is to kick the to shin as they are stepping in. a good drill is to get muay thai shin guards and do it that way.


 
Its been a long time since I've gone thru these techs. but now that you mention this, I do recall being shown the bold variation.  This included stepping back with the right leg, as you did the block and delivered the kick.

Good points!

Mike


----------



## marlon

..

ee





kosho said:


> OK.
> Comb # 6 I look at this as if you had a apple and a car was coming at you. you threw the apple at the car hit the windshield the apple explosed. and you get hit or run over.
> If you take and step just out of the way and threw the apple into the car
> by the open window and hit the person the car crashes. you are safe.
> Yes it teaches us the leg is longer then the arm, but as you grow in SKK, or any art. Black belts and upper ranks should not look and move like under ranks.
> Comb # 5 If you do not check the rotation of the person attacking you for the second punch you will get hit. unless you change your angle and hit instead of blocking.
> marlon I got my ans. for comb 81 Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Kosho,
> i do not have 81 but i was going to suggest emailing Shihan I...the only 9th dan i know who answers his emails within a day or two
> as for 5 after the block (outward knife and crane's head / chicken wrist...why chicken??) step to the attackers center left tiger rake towards the face ( body check ...block second punch...shot concussive shot to the chest)  right back 2 knuckle to the head elongating the body, making it yin / more vulnerable and right side kick to the plexus
> 
> Marlon
> 
> I love this thread!!!
> Kosho


----------



## Kosho-Monk

How many of you are having your partner punch more than once when you are practicing your combinations?  How about trying to let your partner move around and attack in any way they want to?

I have found that most people stick to the very basics and never really move forward past a beginner understanding.  One thing that frustrate me is when an advanced student won't practice a technique differently because it's not the way he was shown it.  Or even worse, when someone teaches a technique that they don't feel really works.

I praise my students when they are able to move forward with their understanding of something on their own.  If they can learn to teach themselves then I've really done a good job.


----------



## marlon

Kosho-Monk said:


> How many of you are having your partner punch more than once when you are practicing your combinations? How about trying to let your partner move around and attack in any way they want to?
> 
> 
> This is a must if you want to know the technique.  Green and up train thier techniques this way always.  The lower belts get to do this regularly
> 
> Marlon


----------



## DavidCC

Kosho-Monk said:


> How many of you are having your partner punch more than once when you are practicing your combinations? How about trying to let your partner move around and attack in any way they want to?


 
We work up to that, mostly.  

If the attacker can move around and attack any way they want to, we typically call that "sparring".

But short of that... you have to practice against other-than-opitmal attacks, and of course attacks with follow-up attacks.  

Obviously the trick is to do the technique "strong" enough that the attacker is moved realistically (and so ther follow-up options are properly limited) without injury.  Which is why this kind of practice starts at mid-level ranks at our school.  Working up to that level the attacker can increase the speed and vary the angle of the attack but we try to keep them close to the ideal mostly until they have developed a measure of control.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Kosho-Monk said:


> How many of you are having your partner punch more than once when you are practicing your combinations? How about trying to let your partner move around and attack in any way they want to?
> 
> I have found that most people stick to the very basics and never really move forward past a beginner understanding. One thing that frustrate me is when an advanced student won't practice a technique differently because it's not the way he was shown it. Or even worse, when someone teaches a technique that they don't feel really works.
> 
> I praise my students when they are able to move forward with their understanding of something on their own. If they can learn to teach themselves then I've really done a good job.


 
Honestly, I had my students left jab and right cross at some point as a training drill.  You have to get your students to just react...that's it.  just react based on whatever is thrown at them.  The bad thing for me is that I'm short, so I used to teach my students the combinations based on what was working for me.  Your students need to figure out what will make each technique work for their size, height, weight...whatever.  Going back to combination 6, my leg is not longer than most people's arms...the concept kosho is talking about wouldn't work for me.  HOWEVER, I am going to attack the leg that he's stepping in on.  Why?  Timing.  He can't punch me if his leg can't travel close enough to me.  

I may have come off as a bitter ex USSD/FVSSD instructor and that's because I am...but, I do have some knowledge every once in a while.

On a different subject, but still pertaining to combinations, I heard from FV that there are 12 different variations of each combination for the right and the left.  Anyone know these?


----------



## MJS

Kosho-Monk said:


> How many of you are having your partner punch more than once when you are practicing your combinations? How about trying to let your partner move around and attack in any way they want to?
> 
> I have found that most people stick to the very basics and never really move forward past a beginner understanding. One thing that frustrate me is when an advanced student won't practice a technique differently because it's not the way he was shown it. Or even worse, when someone teaches a technique that they don't feel really works.
> 
> I praise my students when they are able to move forward with their understanding of something on their own. If they can learn to teach themselves then I've really done a good job.


 
Once the base tech. is worked on, we always look at that 'what if' area.  Sometimes people tend to get so focused on one aspect of a tech. that they forget that the attacker has another hand and most likely will be using it.  Now, perhaps it was because I never reached that point when I was training in SKK, but that was something that I personally never saw being addressed.  It was once I moved on to EPAK, that this was taken into consideration.

Mike


----------



## kosho

Comb #7  well I learned it as a side step to the left and then a side blade kick to the ribs. cross cover.
I teach it also as a kick to the knee.
and I also make sure that all combs can be done if a left punch comes in amd also from grabs. etc......
Kosho


----------



## MJS

kosho said:


> Comb #7 well I learned it as a side step to the left and then a side blade kick to the ribs. cross cover.
> I teach it also as a kick to the knee.
> and I also make sure that all combs can be done if a left punch comes in amd also from grabs. etc......
> Kosho


 
Yes, this is the way I have it as well.


----------



## MJS

#8 & #9

I have the initial block as what I believe is being called iron fortress. (right parry, followed by the left coming up under and grabbing the arm)

From there, a right instep kick to the groin, followed by a right roundhouse kick.  #9 is followed up by a side kick to the ribs.

Mike


----------



## DavidCC

MJS said:


> #8 & #9
> 
> I have the initial block as what I believe is being called iron fortress. (right parry, followed by the left coming up under and grabbing the arm)
> 
> From there, a right instep kick to the groin, followed by a right roundhouse kick. #9 is followed up by a side kick to the ribs.
> 
> Mike


 
our 8 and 9 are completely different:
  #8 is knife hand block with step forward and... 
  #9 is knife hand block with step back and...


----------



## marlon

#8 hard open hand outward blocl then right snap kick to the groin.../step down then roundhouse to the head

#9
outward ridge hand block to a grab (bring arm to center) with simultaneauous right front kick to the bladder then right roundhoue with the ball of the foot to the chest step down into a dagon stance (the control of the attackers arm unbalances them.so they fall into the right side thrust to the ribs.  cross and cover...ie move twice  There is a potential arm break withthe side thrust kick by raising the right forearm as your left hand controls the arm just before the side kick

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## kosho

I teach 8 and 9  as just a double kick with #8
and a triple kick with #9. Block if need to but its all about timeing.
Kosho


----------



## kosho

MJS,
       Comb 10.  I can not think of how I had this> but once some one posts it i think it will come back. 

I now teach it the way my teacher  added some kosho Ryu idears to it.
 as the punch comes in you step right leg to octogan angle 5 as you blend your left hand open block to the punch same time you deliver a right hand shuto to the attackers neck. at this time the attackers balance becomes off and you then deliver a throw. by shifting your lower base and moveing your left foot as in dragon wips tail.  once down controlling the arm you deliver 3 strikes to the attackers face. cross and cover.
Kosho


----------



## Hand Sword

We did it the same way with the feet, the difference for us was a right spear hand to the groin, with a simultaneous left, knife hand block. You then wrap the arm, pull downward, and from the spearhand, come straight up with a palm under the chin/side of the head, or a bear claw, which I've seen also. Then it was 2 chops to the throat, nose, then jump up, and come down with a chop to the heart.


----------



## kosho

Handsword  The way you posted it. Is the way i learned it. With the bear claw strike. and the spearhand to the groin.  wrap and shift and take down. strike, strike and jump... I totally forgot that comb. Thanks.
The way i posted it before is how I teach it now. 
Thanks, again
 Kosho


----------



## MJS

#10 for me, I blocked with my left, to their right arm, while doing a right ridgehand strike to the groin.  Wrapping the arm with my left, and delivering a right bear claw/palm strike to the ear, as I step back with the left leg, taking them down.  From there it was 2 knife hand strikes to the ribs, followed by the jump and a 3rd strike to the ribs.


----------



## marlon

MJS said:


> #10 for me, I blocked with my left, to their right arm, while doing a right ridgehand strike to the groin. Wrapping the arm with my left, and delivering a right bear claw/palm strike to the ear, as I step back with the left leg, taking them down. From there it was 2 knife hand strikes to the ribs, followed by the jump and a 3rd strike to the ribs.


 

I have a driving knife to the ribs ,then a dropping knife to the plexus and then the jump which can be an arm break with a knife to the throat.
the technique also has nice aiki flow to it
Marlon


----------



## Hand Sword

LOL! This is great! Someone above spoke about many variations of one combo, and if they could be listed. I think we're covering that aspect with this combo..LOL! Truly Great! Keep 'em coming!


----------



## Gufbal1982

MJS said:


> #8 & #9
> 
> I have the initial block as what I believe is being called iron fortress. (right parry, followed by the left coming up under and grabbing the arm)
> 
> From there, a right instep kick to the groin, followed by a right roundhouse kick. #9 is followed up by a side kick to the ribs.
> 
> Mike


 

So many different versions, so little time.  SOME Villari schools still teach it with an iron fortress block.  I know of some schools that teach it as a dragon trap to pull into the initial kick.  I originally got it as a dragon hook block.  same kicks.  9 i have the same beginning, but with a switch of the hands to open up the ribs for the kick.  

USSD way is a outward knifehand block with a grab, for 8 and 9, but 9 has an extra bonus wrist break when you switch hands for the sidekick at the end.

I, yet again, have a short person version with a wrist control after the grab to help lower them into the roundhouse kick.  Just putting in my 2 cents.


----------



## Gufbal1982

MJS said:


> #10 for me, I blocked with my left, to their right arm, while doing a right ridgehand strike to the groin. Wrapping the arm with my left, and delivering a right bear claw/palm strike to the ear, as I step back with the left leg, taking them down. From there it was 2 knife hand strikes to the ribs, followed by the jump and a 3rd strike to the ribs.


 
That's what FV teaches now in most schools.  some instructors still teach it with the spear hand to the groin. 

USSD version:

outward knifehand with the left, ridgehand to the groin with the right while hinging in with the right foot.  wrap the arm with the left hand, right shooto strike to the neck and take them down.  3 rolling shooto strikes to the heart.

the takedown works best for me when i cup the head and bring it to my left shoulder (aka the sweetheart takedown) and then there is a bonus armbar when they are on the ground and you aren't.


----------



## SK101

I agree with Marlon on the importance of the backpunch or other strike if you have a variation. The back punch to the chin sends the head back, which stops the left punch as any energy going forward from the left shoulder makes the opponent absorb more energy on the jaw strike. 

   I used to practice injuring the incoming arm on DM(Combination) 2, but when I started thinking in terms of the what if I started focusing on only using the #3 block to avoid the hit and immediately striking the chin.

  Everything on DM 2 is about getting the opponent to shift weight to the heels. The backpunch to the chin, elbow to sternum(shoulder for safety in the dojo), hidden strike sends the head back( I won't list what the strike is as it is very hard to control and your partner often gets whacked). In my opinion the take down is not done unless the opponent's weight is heavily on their heels.

   There is a concept taught that I have not had the chance to explore in person with Professor Ingargiola on making the opponents weight come forward with the block. I would be curious to see if this would also stop the left punch or slow it down. Anyone have this concept down well enough to comment?


----------



## DavidCC

We don't use that kind of heavy block in #2, but that is a blocking technique we are familiar with.  A "block" should distort the attacker's posture and balance...


----------



## Gufbal1982

DavidCC said:


> We don't use that kind of heavy block in #2, but that is a blocking technique we are familiar with. A "block" should distort the attacker's posture and balance...


 

The 3 block isn't necessarilly a hard style block.  It can also be used as a deflection and as a soft style block.  Just think about it...what makes a 3 block a 3 block?


----------



## 14 Kempo

Gufbal1982 said:


> The 3 block isn't necessarilly a hard style block. It can also be used as a deflection and as a soft style block. Just think about it...what makes a 3 block a 3 block?


 
Here's another thought along those lines ... 

The idea behind #2, as I know it, is to avoid the strike via movement/footwork, therefore it may be considered that there is no #3 block at all. It is the same motion as a block, but is simply used as a guard which is also chambering the right arm, readying for attack, which in this scenario would be a backfist to the nose, followed by an elbow strike to the sternum.

One thought would be, by blocking the oppoonents right arm, especially with a hard block, would you not be setting him up for the left strike? Think about how the opponents body would tend to move if the arm is blocked from the inside out. The force would cause the opponents shoulders to rotate clockwise, which creates a natural movement of the left shoulder forward, not only bringing on the punch, but actually adding power to it.

With this in mind, the movement from avoiding the punch to striking the opponent needs to be very quick, thus eliminating the power of the left punch that is coming.

Just another way of looking at and/or applying the technique.


----------



## marlon

There is a concept taught that I have not had the chance to explore in person with Professor Ingargiola on making the opponents weight come forward with the block. I would be curious to see if this would also stop the left punch or slow it down. Anyone have this concept down well enough to comment?[/quote]

This is a good concept but the body positioning of combo 2 does not allow for it to stop a second strike.  Also i do not do this block so hard and also use the foot work more to avoid the strike.

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> There is a concept taught that I have not had the chance to explore in person with Professor Ingargiola on making the opponents weight come forward with the block. I would be curious to see if this would also stop the left punch or slow it down. Anyone have this concept down well enough to comment?
> 
> This is a good concept but the body positioning of combo 2 does not allow for it to stop a second strike. Also i do not do this block so hard and also use the foot work more to avoid the strike.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
This is another way that I have worked #2. For me, it tends to jam me up a bit, bringing the opponent too close. However, I have been able to make it work by hinging on the right foot, moving the left foot back, and bringing the opponent in. 

Let it be known, that there are three ways of footwork practiced where I train ...
1) Box step ending up in a horse stance
2) Hinging 90° on the left foot, dropping the right foot back, ending up in a halfmoon stance
3) A twist stance. The same first movement as #38
The method I prefer is the hinging method. Ending up in a halfmoon stance is much more practical and stable for street application.


----------



## marlon

The jamming thing i find has been mentioned a lot, but i terms of striking if you're not a little 'jammed' then you might be too far to hit 'through' your target.  anywho, it works for me.

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> The method I prefer is the hinging method. Ending up in a halfmoon stance is much more practical and stable for street application.


 
A half-moon facing which direction?  Left or right half-moon?


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> A half-moon facing which direction? Left or right half-moon?


 
That would be pivoting on the left foot 90° counter-clockwise, ending up in a left foot forward halfmoon stance


----------



## Mark L

When considering 2 combination, I don't think of the #3 block as a #3 block.  If your footwork is correct you've already gotten out of the way, so no block is necessary (though a check is a good idea).  The striker's arm is right there, with the radial nerve asking to be whacked.  The motion of the #3 block lets you scrape your right ulna all along the expose nerve rendering the arm harmless for a short time, it also serves as the disruption alluded to earlier to let the right back punch beat the opponents second strike.  Just a thought ...


----------



## Gufbal1982

Mark L said:


> When considering 2 combination, I don't think of the #3 block as a #3 block.  If your footwork is correct you've already gotten out of the way, so no block is necessary (though a check is a good idea).  The striker's arm is right there, with the radial nerve asking to be whacked.  The motion of the #3 block lets you scrape your right ulna all along the expose nerve rendering the arm harmless for a short time, it also serves as the disruption alluded to earlier to let the right back punch beat the opponents second strike.  Just a thought ...



I agree...especially since I describe something similar on page 1 of this thread.  However, something to consider is what if the person that is attacking has nerve damage there?  You better be ready to strike ASAP.  That's kind of why I also say 3 can be a deflection block.  It depends on your opponent.


----------



## Mark L

You are absolutely correct in being ready to strike quickly, and repeatedly.  If the nerve strike doesn't work, it doesn't work; I move onto something else.  I don't count on any _one_ thing working, in fact I assume any single strike will not work so I continue until I don't have to anymore.


----------



## marlon

I forget.  what is the next combo to discuss?

Marlon


----------



## MJS

marlon said:


> I forget. what is the next combo to discuss?
> 
> Marlon


 
I believe that we're up to #11.  However, if there are still questions, comments, etc., on anything else we've already discussed, feel free to bring them up. 

Mike


----------



## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> That would be pivoting on the left foot 90° counter-clockwise, ending up in a left foot forward halfmoon stance


 
are you sure you don't mean clockwise?

but basically you are in a left half-moon facing 3?  (or is it 9 for counter-clockwise).

starting in a horse facing 12, drop my right foot back while pivoting 90 degrees on my left... that is clockwise, facing 3?

You fight from this position?  if your attacker is at 12, you are in a left half moon facing 90 degrees off???


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> are you sure you don't mean clockwise?
> 
> but basically you are in a left half-moon facing 3? (or is it 9 for counter-clockwise).
> 
> starting in a horse facing 12, drop my right foot back while pivoting 90 degrees on my left... that is clockwise, facing 3?
> 
> You fight from this position? if your attacker is at 12, you are in a left half moon facing 90 degrees off???


 
If you are facing 12 and you turn 90 degrees in a counter-clockwise direction, you will be facing 9


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> Combo #4
> Slight step back with the rt leg with a right rising block (more like slipping under the punch) clockwise circullar motion with the right arm clockwise (from the block you should have contact with the scapulla to be most effective with the circular motion) continue motion into a lt to rt downward tiger rake across the face with  a half beat differential into a rt roundhouse that follows through ie not a competion kick but one that uses the hips and strikes with a downward force.  land in  a dragon stance to regain balance from the all out kick.  rt axe  or stomp the the groin of fallen attacker jump on the head and follow up strikes (i have had a rt lt front punch to the cheek bones then immortal man's to the eyes then trigger fingers to the temples or double front punches or only the rt lt punches)ending with a blade kick to the lt side of the attacker's head.  Although, i really prefer the ending Danjo has from kajukenbo or is it from Pesare?  I once was told that after the round house the techniques ended...
> we really emphasize the slip of the attack rather than blocking and the rt arm functions more as a guard and a way to establish contact.  The contact area (scapulla) is very good for sensing your opponents movement and for disrupting their balance with minimal effort.
> 
> Ok that's 4 the way i have it!
> Let's learn
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon
> 
> Steve i live in Montreal, Quebec about 4.5 hours out of Boston.  i am not quite sure exactly where Orange county is, and it would be great to have you come up.


Hello, 

   Just a thought on the groin strike. I was told once by someone who tried the groin strike that if you use the heel instead of the ball for the axe kick you stand on their pelvic bone, which might sound fun but you will generally fall as your opponent is understandably wobly. Using the ball of the foot allows you to hit then slide onto the floor for a stable launch position.


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Just a thought on the groin strike. I was told once by someone who tried the groin strike that if you use the heel instead of the ball for the axe kick you stand on their pelvic bone, which might sound fun but you will generally fall as your opponent is understandably wobly. Using the ball of the foot allows you to hit then slide onto the floor for a stable launch position.


 
At our school we bypass the kick to the groin. We step with our right on the outside right, knee or thigh level, of the fallen opponent, to avoid exposing our own groin to an up kick from the opponent, then jump off our right landing not on the face, but straddling the opponent. We apply triggers to the temples and immortal man strikes to the eyes. Finishing with a right cresent, then right stomp to the head.


----------



## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> At our school we bypass the kick to the groin. We step with our right on the outside right, knee or thigh level, of the fallen opponent, to avoid exposing our own groin to an up kick from the opponent, then jump off our right landing not on the face, but straddling the opponent. We apply triggers to the temples and immortal man strikes to the eyes. Finishing with a right cresent, then right stomp to the head.


 
Hello, 

   That is also the way I learned it. I always had it that the opponent lands with the feet together then step to the side of the hip. I picked up the groin version when the opponent lands with legs open. Do you do this when the feet are together or on either one?

   Someone was asking earlier about the takedown and picturing it in their head. I will do my best to describe the explanations I have been given. 

   On the roundhouse to face version you are using quick changes in direction for the takedown. The initial block pulls your opponent toward 5 oclock then the redirect before the tiger rake toward 10 oclock then the tiger rake pulls them toward 5 oclock and finally the roundhouse to the face sends them toward 10 oclock. It is the constant change in direction that breaks the balance and allows the takedown. 

   On the roundhouse to sternum version you hit with an upward rising roundhouse ball kick, which takes the opponent off their feet. I had a black belt who had the unforunate lesson of learning the validity of this take down by punching in for one of the USSD Masters. He learned to fly so to speak. 

   The twist stance after the round house I was always told was their in case you didn't suceed on the takedown. Since it is very difficult to practice these takedowns on a partner it is quite understandable that it will take a longer time to develop the ability to utilize for real life. 

   I have yet to hear a story about how you can possibly practice the face split. Does anyone know how this may have been practiced in earlier times. Perhaps landing on watermellons?

Thanks for all the input from everyone,
JReilly


----------



## SK101

Going back to Dm(Combination) 2

   Guard for DM(Combination #2) - To draw your opponent into the attack that you want place your right hand on the right side of your head and your left hand low on the center line. This leaves your left upper body open for a right punch, right hooking punch, straight kick or circular kick . Either block or just hit as your opponent attacks. 

   Footwork- I think I saw all of these listed earlier. I want to see if anyone has any other ideas. 

   Box step - Usually the normal way taught.
   Box step - both feet move at the same time.
   V Step - Switching from left halfmoon to right halfmoon. 
   Pull drag from right half moon - Loose the block & just hit. 
   Open the gate - Turn CCW to right side horse stance. 
   I screw up and and let a left hook come in - before the back punch bob and weave then deliver the back punch from the outside and continue.

   My appologies if I am a little long winded, but if I don't ask now I may not get a chance to later. I have always thought of back punch to the chin as ideal when you are shorter and the backfist to the nose as ideal when you are taller. Any other advantages on that part of DM 2 for one strike or the other?


----------



## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> If you are facing 12 and you turn 90 degrees in a counter-clockwise direction, you will be facing 9


 
I guess I'm confused.  You originally wrote

"2) Hinging 90° on the left foot, dropping the right foot back, ending up in a halfmoon stance"

so how is that counter-clockwise?  This is a turn to face 3



Later you wrote "That would be pivoting on the left foot 90° counter-clockwise, ending up in a left foot forward halfmoon stance"

which leaves you facing 9.

But what I am more interested in is, are you saying that you fight an attacker at 12 from a left half moon facing 3?  or 9?


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> I have yet to hear a story about how you can possibly practice the face split. Does anyone know how this may have been practiced in earlier times. Perhaps landing on watermellons?
> 
> Thanks for all the input from everyone,
> JReilly


 
I may be competely wrong, I'm no master, but with regards to the face split, which I had in the 80's, doesn't seem practical. Seems to me this would cause loss of balance, at the least, or the chance of twisted/broken ankle(s). Of course, I've never actually done this to a person, so I really don't know for fact. Landing on watermelons may simulate the action, but they will crush. I believe at least the larger facial bones and skull would remain somewhat intact. Thoughts anyone?


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> Going back to Dm(Combination) 2
> 
> Guard for DM(Combination #2) - To draw your opponent into the attack that you want place your right hand on the right side of your head and your left hand low on the center line. This leaves your left upper body open for a right punch, right hooking punch, straight kick or circular kick . Either block or just hit as your opponent attacks.
> 
> Footwork- I think I saw all of these listed earlier. I want to see if anyone has any other ideas.
> 
> Box step - Usually the normal way taught.
> Box step - both feet move at the same time.
> V Step - Switching from left halfmoon to right halfmoon.
> Pull drag from right half moon - Loose the block & just hit.
> Open the gate - Turn CCW to right side horse stance.
> I screw up and and let a left hook come in - before the back punch bob and weave then deliver the back punch from the outside and continue.
> 
> My appologies if I am a little long winded, but if I don't ask now I may not get a chance to later. I have always thought of back punch to the chin as ideal when you are shorter and the backfist to the nose as ideal when you are taller. Any other advantages on that part of DM 2 for one strike or the other?


 
Honestly, if you are shorter, don't do the backfist just go straight for the elbow to knock your opponent off balance and finish it off.  It's ok to skip something if it's not ideal to do.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Anyway, combination/dm/whatever you call it this week number 11 as I have it:

Start in a horse stance.

Draw into a left cat stance and do a left hand parry block.

right trigger finger to the temple.

Single leg takedown (right hand on the hips to displace and left hand sweeping the ankle) slide the hands up the leg to the opponents foot.

right knee to their groin.

right hand grabs the top half of the foot and left hand grabs the heel.  turn the leg (tearing the ACL) step over the body with the left foot.

right knee to the spine while pulling the leg.

step over the body with the right leg, right thrust punch to the ribs, right heel kick to the ribs (both sides), left spinning hook kick to the head (as they pop up their head from the rib shots).

on guard.


I've seen other versions of this such as hiding the trigger finger strike under the parry block, adding an extra parry block after the trigger finger, using a palm strike to the ribs before the takedown...lots of neat stuff!


----------



## marlon

Gufbal1982 said:


> Anyway, combination/dm/whatever you call it this week number 11 as I have it:
> 
> Start in a horse stance.
> 
> Draw into a left cat stance and do a left hand parry block.
> 
> right trigger finger to the temple.
> 
> Single leg takedown (right hand on the hips to displace and left hand sweeping the ankle) slide the hands up the leg to the opponents foot.
> 
> right knee to their groin.
> 
> right hand grabs the top half of the foot and left hand grabs the heel. turn the leg (tearing the ACL) step over the body with the left foot.
> 
> right knee to the spine while pulling the leg.
> 
> step over the body with the right leg, right thrust punch to the ribs, right heel kick to the ribs (both sides), left spinning hook kick to the head (as they pop up their head from the rib shots).
> 
> on guard.
> 
> 
> I've seen other versions of this such as hiding the trigger finger strike under the parry block, adding an extra parry block after the trigger finger, using a palm strike to the ribs before the takedown...lots of neat stuff!


 

Mine is the same except i no longer use the cat stance and sometimes initiate the takedown with a left upward/ right to left tiger rake across the face (on retraction from the parry block).  It throws the person balance off and gives you the time to go for the single leg take down.  Both these changes come from Shiahn Ingargiola who says he has always had them this way.  I kept both for a while (he does not force anyone to clone him) but i find the changes work better.

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## MJS

Gufbal1982 said:


> Anyway, combination/dm/whatever you call it this week number 11 as I have it:
> 
> Start in a horse stance.
> 
> Draw into a left cat stance and do a left hand parry block.
> 
> right trigger finger to the temple.
> 
> Single leg takedown (right hand on the hips to displace and left hand sweeping the ankle) slide the hands up the leg to the opponents foot.
> 
> right knee to their groin.
> 
> right hand grabs the top half of the foot and left hand grabs the heel. turn the leg (tearing the ACL) step over the body with the left foot.
> 
> right knee to the spine while pulling the leg.
> 
> step over the body with the right leg, right thrust punch to the ribs, right heel kick to the ribs (both sides), left spinning hook kick to the head (as they pop up their head from the rib shots).
> 
> on guard.


 
This is the same way I learned it as well. 

Mike


----------



## SK101

Mine is the same except i no longer use the cat stance and sometimes initiate the takedown with a left upward/ right to left tiger rake across the face (on retraction from the parry block). It throws the person balance off and gives you the time to go for the single leg take down. Both these changes come from Shiahn Ingargiola who says he has always had them this way. I kept both for a while (he does not force anyone to clone him) but i find the changes work better.

Respectfully,
Marlon 





> Hello Marlon,
> 
> Is that the same way he has it on the video?
> 
> P.S. Master Mailman had a cool version where you place a  figure 4 on the persons knee. They basically wind up stuck in the air while breaking their back. I am a little reluctant to teach it this way early as it seemed easier to injure your partner, but that could just be my paranoid self.
> 
> Talk too you soon,
> James R. (SK101)


----------



## SK101

Hello All, 

   Onto to DM(Combination) 12 anyone. I look at this as a follow up to DM #6. It's still the leg is longer than the arm principle, but the follow up changes since you arent "bouncing" off your opponent. 

   I am sure everyone has 3 different landing positions, but I'll post them anyway - Opponent dosen't move - feet go together. Opponent moves back -then kicking leg steps forward. Opponent moves forward -Left leg steps forward. 

Does anyone use wall drills or Bo Staff drill to teach the back kick?


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Onto to DM(Combination) 12 anyone. I look at this as a follow up to DM #6. It's still the leg is longer than the arm principle, but the follow up changes since you arent "bouncing" off your opponent.
> 
> I am sure everyone has 3 different landing positions, but I'll post them anyway - Opponent dosen't move - feet go together. Opponent moves back -then kicking leg steps forward. Opponent moves forward -Left leg steps forward.
> 
> Does anyone use wall drills or Bo Staff drill to teach the back kick?



Not me.  I used a person with a kickshield to enable the person learning to practice the ranges.


----------



## marlon

#12 for me is all about positioning.  How to place yourelf for an accuratre spinning kick and the timing for this.

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> Mine is the same except i no longer use the cat stance and sometimes initiate the takedown with a left upward/ right to left tiger rake across the face (on retraction from the parry block). It throws the person balance off and gives you the time to go for the single leg take down. Both these changes come from Shiahn Ingargiola who says he has always had them this way. I kept both for a while (he does not force anyone to clone him) but i find the changes work better.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Marlon,
> 
> Is that the same way he has it on the video?
> 
> P.S. Master Mailman had a cool version where you place a figure 4 on the persons knee. They basically wind up stuck in the air while breaking their back. I am a little reluctant to teach it this way early as it seemed easier to injure your partner, but that could just be my paranoid self.
> 
> Talk too you soon,
> James R. (SK101)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will have to double check the video.  It is how he does it so i would imagine yes.  The firgue 4 sounds interesting, but i would not teach it to those without very good control.  there arew many variations that cn be done with the combinations. I like to make sure everyone (with me) teachs the same base technique and let everyone grow with their own personal understanding and skill from there.
> 
> Hope to talk to you soon
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon
Click to expand...


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Onto to DM(Combination) 12 anyone. I look at this as a follow up to DM #6. It's still the leg is longer than the arm principle, but the follow up changes since you arent "bouncing" off your opponent.
> 
> I am sure everyone has 3 different landing positions, but I'll post them anyway - Opponent dosen't move - feet go together. Opponent moves back -then kicking leg steps forward. Opponent moves forward -Left leg steps forward.
> 
> Does anyone use wall drills or Bo Staff drill to teach the back kick?


 


marlon said:


> #12 for me is all about positioning. How to place yourelf for an accuratre spinning kick and the timing for this.
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
I agree with Marlon as far as positioning and timing goes for the back kick, but I also think the front kick has to also do with timing and accuracy as well.  If I don't get my kick in to the correct spot in time, that punch is going to hit me.  You have to time their step perfectly for this technique to work.  Anyone else want to add?


----------



## 14 Kempo

Gufbal1982 said:


> I agree with Marlon as far as positioning and timing goes for the back kick, but I also think the front kick has to also do with timing and accuracy as well. If I don't get my kick in to the correct spot in time, that punch is going to hit me. You have to time their step perfectly for this technique to work. Anyone else want to add?


 
Agreed ... timing of the first kick is the key. If you mis-time this kick, you're going to be not only hit, but possibly over-run, being that you're on one leg and therefore at a distinct disadvantage as far as the all important balance. The first kick must do its intended job, or there is no back kick.


----------



## Gufbal1982

14 Kempo said:


> Agreed ... timing of the first kick is the key. If you mis-time this kick, you're going to be not only hit, but possibly over-run, being that you're on one leg and therefore at a distinct disadvantage as far as the all important balance. The first kick must do its intended job, or there is no back kick.


 
Alleluia praise the lord!  someone sees what I understand!  I am short.  )14 Kempo, you can ask your instructor and he'll verify it).  If I miss that first kick, I'm screwed.  I need to find a different technique to use ASAP!


----------



## kosho

Hi,  Sorry  Had a tough week.  Comb 12. I set my body up so the attacker punches into my left side of my body. as the attacker moves in I shift my body to the right and step out on a Octagon angle 4 and deliver a left front ball kick to the attackers right side of his body. this starts to spin the attacker alittle. so you can set you left foot for your right spinning back kick. ( timeing is big here) and I shift with my heal aready faceing the attackers body so the spin is pre set.
 kosho


----------



## Gufbal1982

kosho said:


> Hi, Sorry Had a tough week. Comb 12. I set my body up so the attacker punches into my left side of my body. as the attacker moves in I shift my body to the right and step out on a Octagon angle 4 and deliver a left front ball kick to the attackers right side of his body. this starts to spin the attacker alittle. so you can set you left foot for your right spinning back kick. ( timeing is big here) and I shift with my heal aready faceing the attackers body so the spin is pre set.
> kosho


 

Wouldn't timing and accuracy also be key for the front kick?  if you kick someone in the right side of the body, realistically, where would the body turn?  if someone hits my right side, i'm more than likely going to turn towards my right, leaving you with a very small target to hit now.  you're most likely hitting my left arm.  you should think about body positioning in relation to striking.


----------



## MJS

Gufbal1982 said:


> Wouldn't timing and accuracy also be key for the front kick?


 
Absolutely!!  In my opinion, its key in every technique.


----------



## kosho

Yes timeing is a key for the front ball kick also, with the kick to the right side and the person starts to spin. most of the time I  deliver a spinning kick to the attackers left kidney area. if the person does not spin then i deliver the kick to the mid section or what is open. at that time. 
also if the spinning kick is not the right call for the timeing then I go into something else. maybe a punch or a shift of movement  and then set up the kick again. If i had to follow the TEQ. step by step  and never change or grow then I would be stuck in a BOX  and look like everyone else. I like to have that change about me LOL
 Kosho


----------



## Gufbal1982

kosho said:


> Yes timeing is a key for the front ball kick also, with the kick to the right side and the person starts to spin. most of the time I deliver a spinning kick to the attackers left kidney area. if the person does not spin then i deliver the kick to the mid section or what is open. at that time.
> also if the spinning kick is not the right call for the timeing then I go into something else. maybe a punch or a shift of movement and then set up the kick again. If i had to follow the TEQ. step by step and never change or grow then I would be stuck in a BOX and look like everyone else. I like to have that change about me LOL
> Kosho


 
 I'm not saying to not step outside the box.  In fact, I do it myself.  To be quite honest, I am not confident in the kicking arena...I can kick (i study kickboxing as well), but I am not confident there.  I'm more confident where I can use my hands...whether it be grappling, striking, wrestling...whatever.  That's where I am comfortable.  So, for me, I would use 12 as a fake to throw some closer range strikes.  Just my opinion...


----------



## kosho

I like that.  Myself  I also can kick,  but i like my hand speed and hitting power. 
I only truly kick when needed. or to close the gap.  I also train in BJJ
So  are  we  now on comb 13?  belt teq...  I do this with out also. MJS  you start LOL
 Kosho


----------



## MJS

kosho said:


> I like that. Myself I also can kick, but i like my hand speed and hitting power.
> I only truly kick when needed. or to close the gap. I also train in BJJ
> So are we now on comb 13? belt teq... I do this with out also. MJS you start LOL
> Kosho


 
Ok..lets see.

Step with left to 10/11 o'clock area as the punch is blocked.  

Left hand checks arm down as a right verticle punch is delivered to the head.  I've also seen this done w/o the check.

Loop the belt over the head and around the neck.

Right foot steps behind opponents legs as you take them down.  

Belt is then pulled off the neck and can be used to strike opponent.


----------



## kosho

I have it as 

step out with left foot as the attacker comes in. with belt in both hands deliver a block with the belt. left hand high right low.

once to block is made take your left hand and press down on the attackers arm. as your right hand comes up and delivers a right back two knuckle punch to the attackers face ( temple area). 
then flip the belt over the attackers head and shift your body around then and put your hip into there back and pull. this flpis them over.
once on the ground place your right or left foot on to there body
as you place the belt into the left hand ( so both ends of the belt are in the left hand. holding around the neck)
pull with the right shutting of the blood flow the the brain.
 Kosho
Thats how i learned it back in the early 80s


----------



## Iron Leopard

With #13 there are variations of the take down.

The flip over the shoulder.
The side take down where you just roll em off the side and step out as you do it and.
There is one with a sweep as well.


----------



## marlon

Gufbal1982 said:


> I agree with Marlon as far as positioning and timing goes for the back kick, but I also think the front kick has to also do with timing and accuracy as well. If I don't get my kick in to the correct spot in time, that punch is going to hit me. You have to time their step perfectly for this technique to work. Anyone else want to add?


 

agreed the timing for the first kick is critical.

marlon


----------



## Gufbal1982

Iron Leopard said:


> With #13 there are variations of the take down.
> 
> The flip over the shoulder.
> The side take down where you just roll em off the side and step out as you do it and.
> There is one with a sweep as well.



In all my years of studying shaolin kempo I have never seen it with a sweep.  It doesn't teach what the technique is about.  You end up going thru many ranges that way.  You start with a deflection of the arm to trapping.  From there you use the strikes you throw to set up the entanglement of the upper body and the displacement of the hips to do the throw.  The second version you mention is what happens if you screw up the takedown.  You still have those concepts except you screwed up one element and are compensating for it.  The sweep doesn't offer entanglement or hip displacement.  Basically, it is saying "no judo and more kenpo."


----------



## fnorfurfoot

MJS said:


> Ok..lets see.
> 
> Step with left to 10/11 o'clock area as the punch is blocked.
> 
> Left hand checks arm down as a right verticle punch is delivered to the head. I've also seen this done w/o the check.
> 
> Loop the belt over the head and around the neck.
> 
> Right foot steps behind opponents legs as you take them down.
> 
> Belt is then pulled off the neck and can be used to strike opponent.


 
Mine is the same as yours as long as your "take them down" means you throw them over your shoulder.


----------



## 14 Kempo

MJS said:


> Ok..lets see.
> 
> Step with left to 10/11 o'clock area as the punch is blocked.
> 
> Left hand checks arm down as a right verticle punch is delivered to the head. I've also seen this done w/o the check.
> 
> Loop the belt over the head and around the neck.
> 
> Right foot steps behind opponents legs as you take them down.
> 
> Belt is then pulled off the neck and can be used to strike opponent.


 
Done the same here with a few possible, slight variations.

The 'left hand checks the arm down' could be a hammer strike to the radial nerve of the opponents right arm. 

Thrust/vertical punch to the opponents temple/head.

The 'loop the belt over the head and around the neck' could be done three different ways. 

One, take the right over the head and around the neck. With this one, the loop is tightened as you step behind with the right leg. 

Two, flip the belt over the head. This one is used primarily if the person is taller and you can't reach over the head. 

Three, left arm loop over the head and around the neck. With this one the loop actually loosens as you step behind with the right, but can still work. 

In all cases, bring them over the shoulder and to the ground.


----------



## MJS

I was originally taught the throw as being over the shoulder, but variations can include the hip, depending on how far you step behind.

Mike


----------



## Iron Leopard

regarding #13 again it is taught over the shoulder as you guys mentioned above and drill in the concepts associated with it but you miss some of the reality of it if you don't practice it in other drills such as your attacker moves on you as you loop the belt around his neck well then what do you do?  If you have practiced it multiple ways then you are prepared for an;y eventuality. hip and sweep.  

this goes for all the DMs or combinations ..you learn them right handed and then you learn them left and then you learn them against hook punches and kicks and multiple punches and from the ground and in a dragon circle or a gauntlet or against two attackers etc. the drill and minor variations go on forever.


----------



## 14 Kempo

Iron Leopard said:


> regarding #13 again it is taught over the shoulder as you guys mentioned above and drill in the concepts associated with it but you miss some of the reality of it if you don't practice it in other drills such as your attacker moves on you as you loop the belt around his neck well then what do you do? If you have practiced it multiple ways then you are prepared for an;y eventuality. hip and sweep.
> 
> this goes for all the DMs or combinations ..you learn them right handed and then you learn them left and then you learn them against hook punches and kicks and multiple punches and from the ground and in a dragon circle or a gauntlet or against two attackers etc. the drill and minor variations go on forever.


 
I personally work all my techniques in various ways, trying to encompass anything that may happen during a technique. I'm not always able to do all things when working with a partner, but I use visualization techniques as well. Anyone who is or was athletic in anyway understands how it is visualization techniques can help, but is not in anyway a fixall ... these need to be worked on people. Also, all techniques can be countered. It is a very good practice to work with someone else of skill and have them try to counter the various techniques to see what may occur ... my two cents (but I'm not out of pennies yet)


----------



## Hand Sword

We always had the strike in 13 as a back two- knuckle punch, after the block. It made the wrap easier too.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Iron Leopard said:


> regarding #13 again it is taught over the shoulder as you guys mentioned above and drill in the concepts associated with it but you miss some of the reality of it if you don't practice it in other drills such as your attacker moves on you as you loop the belt around his neck well then what do you do?  If you have practiced it multiple ways then you are prepared for an;y eventuality. hip and sweep.
> 
> this goes for all the DMs or combinations ..you learn them right handed and then you learn them left and then you learn them against hook punches and kicks and multiple punches and from the ground and in a dragon circle or a gauntlet or against two attackers etc. the drill and minor variations go on forever.



You have missed the point of the technique and what it's trying to do.  If what you say is true, then why are there 108 dm's?  You can change the techniques all you want.  If you apply the technique right, you use your opponent's energy to follow where they go.  Basic concept in wrestling.  You don't wrestle so that's why you don't get it.


----------



## Hand Sword

Geez! Is Iron Leopard's head still attached? Could we all lighten up a little? Different strokes for different folks, right?


----------



## Gufbal1982

Hand Sword said:


> Geez! Is Iron Leopard's head still attached? Could we all lighten up a little? Different strokes for different folks, right?


 
Sorry.  I'm just very passionate about finding the concepts behind the combinations.


----------



## Iron Leopard

lol it's ok...remember everything I post here is just my opinion! no offence taken by me..although..gufbal seems just a little argumentative on some of my points?  lol


----------



## Gufbal1982

Iron Leopard said:


> lol it's ok...remember everything I post here is just my opinion! no offence taken by me..although..gufbal seems just a little argumentative on some of my points? lol


 
I like to call it more of a debate.


----------



## kosho

OK<OK<OK  Play nice LOL
Comb 14. # 2 Block as you step back  and then a  sissor kick to the attackers solar plexus.
Thats how I learned it back in the early 80's
kosho


----------



## SK101

Comb 14. # 2 Block as you step back and then a sissor kick to the attackers solar plexus.
Thats how I learned it back in the early 80's
kosho

There was a cool variation taught at one of the SK studios where you do left stepping stool instead of scissor kick. The opponent punches in then as the defender grabs the attacker pulls back. The defender does the stepping stool kick to follow the attacker.


----------



## Iron Leopard

SK101 said:


> Comb 14. # 2 Block as you step back and then a sissor kick to the attackers solar plexus.
> Thats how I learned it back in the early 80's
> kosho
> 
> .


 
That's how I have it ..this is one I've never worked a variation on except I've seen one once with a back two knucke to the solor of the forward attacker and a reverse hammer to the groin of the rearward attacker...no jump kick. I don't remember how that variation started though.


----------



## SK101

*QUOTE=Hand Sword;693260]We always had the strike in 13 as a back two- knuckle punch, after the block. It made the wrap easier too.[/QUOTE]*

   This is often shown as the belt buckle side of the belt.

]*You have missed the point of the technique and what it's trying to do. If what you say is true, then why are there 108 dm's? You can change the techniques all you want. If you apply the technique right, you use your opponent's energy to follow where they go. Basic concept in wrestling. You don't wrestle so that's why you don't get it. [Qoute from Gulfbal 182*

   I have at least several variations on DMs that completly have different principles. 

*Two, flip the belt over the head. This one is used primarily if the person is taller and you can't reach over the head.*


> I like your thought process on that part. I had once been told to never flip the belt over the neck, but that seee=ms like a logical reason to do so.


----------



## SK101

I like to post the little details that I am sure everyone already has, but just incase or if somenone has more basics, Great!

Back to DM13 - If you step back with right leg while the person is going over your shoulder and yank the belt back toward 4:30 and 7:30 there neck goes one way and their body goes another.

The hammer strike to the nerve box should bring them lower.

The belt can be looped to create a whipping strike to the wrist on the block potentially injuring the wrist.

One way for students to be safer is to place their left hand on the right side of the neck so it is inside belt and reduces the choke. 

Onto DM 14 - People with weak ankles or knees should avoid the scissor kick.

It is easier to learn if you learn the flamingo first - Double knees to the chest.
Then work on the front kick making sure it's hitting the target well. 
Then focus on the back kick and making it's hittint the target well.
Then do both.

Cute story - Master Taylor would jog around Boston. When he was a green belt one of his sister's boyfriends decided to test him. He waited in the bushes and jumped at as Master Taylor came by. Master Taylor jumped up in the air and did DM 14. He told us it made no sense to do 14, but that is what he had been practicing in the dojo since he was a green belt. He kicked the guy who fell down. Master Taylor landed on his chest and just kept jogging. He didn't realize till he got home and saw the boyfriend folded over on the couch who had attacked.

Wish you all the best,
SK101


----------



## RevIV

kosho said:


> I have it as
> 
> step out with left foot as the attacker comes in. with belt in both hands deliver a block with the belt. left hand high right low.
> 
> once to block is made take your left hand and press down on the attackers arm. as your right hand comes up and delivers a right back two knuckle punch to the attackers face ( temple area).
> then flip the belt over the attackers head and shift your body around then and put your hip into there back and pull. this flpis them over.
> once on the ground place your right or left foot on to there body
> as you place the belt into the left hand ( so both ends of the belt are in the left hand. holding around the neck)
> pull with the right shutting of the blood flow the the brain.
> Kosho
> Thats how i learned it back in the early 80s


 

Here is something i figured out on my extremely long trip back from Japan.  to clarify on 13 when i do the throw it is over the left shoulder.  Combination #13 is combination #3 with a belt.  -- #3 left inward palm high, right punch low.  (same position as when holding the belt)  Push hand down in both tech. punch to head w/ right.  #3 reaching behind to grab left shoulder. #13 wraps around towards left shoulder from front.  then throw - i step back after the throw and tear the belt off the neck like i am starting the lawn mower.  well that was one of my epiphanies. think about it, if you are a teacher and do 13 the way i do use it on your advanced students by asking them to find the 2 combinations that are almost idenitical from the foot work to hand positioning.  
In Peace
Jesse


----------



## MeatWad2

SK101 said:


> I like to post the little details that I am sure everyone already has, but just incase or if somenone has more basics, Great!
> 
> Back to DM13 - If you step back with right leg while the person is going over your shoulder and yank the belt back toward 4:30 and 7:30 there neck goes one way and their body goes another.
> 
> The hammer strike to the nerve box should bring them lower.
> 
> The belt can be looped to create a whipping strike to the wrist on the block potentially injuring the wrist.
> 
> One way for students to be safer is to place their left hand on the right side of the neck so it is inside belt and reduces the choke.
> 
> Onto DM 14 - People with weak ankles or knees should avoid the scissor kick.
> 
> It is easier to learn if you learn the flamingo first - Double knees to the chest.
> Then work on the front kick making sure it's hitting the target well.
> Then focus on the back kick and making it's hittint the target well.
> Then do both.
> 
> Cute story - Master Taylor would jog around Boston. When he was a green belt one of his sister's boyfriends decided to test him. He waited in the bushes and jumped at as Master Taylor came by. Master Taylor jumped up in the air and did DM 14. He told us it made no sense to do 14, but that is what he had been practicing in the dojo since he was a green belt. He kicked the guy who fell down. Master Taylor landed on his chest and just kept jogging. He didn't realize till he got home and saw the boyfriend folded over on the couch who had attacked.
> 
> Wish you all the best,
> SK101





A better story where was he jogging to?
I"d like to think backto ireland to be with the elf"s and little people.


----------



## Hand Sword

MeatWad2, Do you ever intend to contribute anything, to any of the posts, that is positive? Or ask a serious question? If not, please do contribute anything. Read, think, train,and maybe learn something useful on your journey.


----------



## DavidCC

Our 14 is completely different.  Not at all similar.  I wonder where it came from:

attack is a punch to the body or a straight kick
step right foot back drawing into left 45-cat, with downward cross block
step out of cat into left half-moon raising and uncrossing hands doing a double outward tiger-claw rake to face
continue circular motion of hands to elbow position, then continue with immortal-man strikes to both eyes
right front ball kick to solar plexus
cross out


does that read familiar to anyone?

-D


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> Our 14 is completely different. Not at all similar. I wonder where it came from:
> 
> attack is a punch to the body or a straight kick
> step right foot back drawing into left 45-cat, with downward cross block
> step out of cat into left half-moon raising and uncrossing hands doing a double outward tiger-claw rake to face
> continue circular motion of hands to elbow position, then continue with immortal-man strikes to both eyes
> right front ball kick to solar plexus
> cross out
> 
> 
> does that read familiar to anyone?
> 
> -D


 
Sounds like a decent technique, but then again, sounds like nothing I've ever been taught.


----------



## SK101

DavidCC said:


> Our 14 is completely different. Not at all similar. I wonder where it came from:
> 
> attack is a punch to the body or a straight kick
> step right foot back drawing into left 45-cat, with downward cross block
> step out of cat into left half-moon raising and uncrossing hands doing a double outward tiger-claw rake to face
> continue circular motion of hands to elbow position, then continue with immortal-man strikes to both eyes
> right front ball kick to solar plexus
> cross out
> 
> 
> does that read familiar to anyone?
> 
> -D


 
That sounds exactly like #24 with a front ball kick at the end. As long as it works though I honestly wouldn't worry to much about where it comes from.


----------



## SK101

SK101 said:


> That sounds exactly like #24 with a front ball kick at the end. As long as it works though I honestly wouldn't worry to much about where it comes from.


 
There is also a scissor strike to the throat that is usually taught on 24. It comes right before the Tiger rakes and right after the downward X block.


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> There is also a scissor strike to the throat that is usually taught on 24. It comes right before the Tiger rakes and right after the downward X block.


 
LOL ... you're right, I didn't even catch that ... 

Our #24, step in with the left foot, using a downward cross block. Scissor strike to the throat, double outward rakes to the face, double immortal man strikes to the eyes.


----------



## RevIV

14 Kempo said:


> LOL ... you're right, I didn't even catch that ...
> 
> Our #24, step in with the left foot, using a downward cross block. Scissor strike to the throat, double outward rakes to the face, double immortal man strikes to the eyes.


 

I have #24 the same but ending with poison thumbs to the eyes.


----------



## RevIV

So would this mean the #15 is next.  I have actually seen old video footage of this taken off of an 8mm with prof. Cerio doing the technique in Hawaii with Prof. Chow (i am almost positive on that)  I originally learned it with the person balancing on the Knee, but now i slam them right to the ground and do the follow up strikes from there.

1. RT over LT twist stance outward/downward circular knife hand block driving strike hand to opponents groin.
2. LT foot steps Forward to the side of attacker with right upward ridge hand to throat.
3. Rt foot turns counter clockwise getting behind person while executing a ridge hand to persons left side of neck almost to SCM muscles. 
4. Drive person to the ground staying near there head (hopeful knockout when slamming occipital ridge into the ground) downward elbow RT, face or collar bone, right hammer to groin.  tiger rack up rt., LT tiger face, Rt tiger face. LT kick face.
Jesse


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> *QUOTE=Hand Sword;693260]We always had the strike in 13 as a back two- knuckle punch, after the block. It made the wrap easier too.*


 
This is often shown as the belt buckle side of the belt.

]*You have missed the point of the technique and what it's trying to do. If what you say is true, then why are there 108 dm's? You can change the techniques all you want. If you apply the technique right, you use your opponent's energy to follow where they go. Basic concept in wrestling. You don't wrestle so that's why you don't get it. [Qoute from Gulfbal 182*

I have at least several variations on DMs that completly have different principles. 


From what I understand, those are what FV calls the 12 keys to each combination.


*Two, flip the belt over the head. This one is used primarily if the person is taller and you can't reach over the head.*


> I like your thought process on that part. I had once been told to never flip the belt over the neck, but that seee=ms like a logical reason to do so.


----------



## fnorfurfoot

RevIV said:


> I have #24 the same but ending with poison thumbs to the eyes.


Same here.


----------



## Hand Sword

Ditto!


----------



## Gufbal1982

fnorfurfoot said:


> Same here.


 
Yup.  Same here.  We seem to have skipped lots of numbers though...


----------



## SK101

*1. RT over LT twist stance outward/downward circular knife hand block driving strike hand to opponents groin.*
   It sounds like this is the redirect to groin version. I learned this off a straight punch, but I always think of it as an overhead attack. It probably wouldn't work for an overhead club since you don't maintain control of the right arm(Unless you guys have a variation to do that).

*2. LT foot steps Forward to the side of attacker with right upward ridge hand to throat.*
   On the redirect version it is usually taught throat strike is done simultaneously since the head drops when the groin is struck so the strike wont land if it is after the groin hit.

*4. Drive person to the ground staying near there head (hopeful knockout when slamming occipital ridge into the ground) downward elbow RT, face or collar bone, right hammer to groin.  tiger rack up rt., LT tiger face, Rt tiger face. LT kick face.
Jesse[/QUOTE]*

I've never had a version on the floor. I look forward to experimenting with that interpretation.

There is a version Professor I teaches at the end of the person laying across the knee. You perform twin crossed palms to the chest region. I would think this would be to drive the head faster to the floor. On that version I would highly advise people to have the students pick up the attacking students head before you deliver the palms. In my opinion with the head pressed back due to the previous elbow it should be almost impossible to slap out without hitting the head plus I would think with the spine in the curved position you would cause severe spinal column damage. Good for attackers, but not for fellow students.


----------



## SK101

DM(Combination) #15 - 

Professor I version of beginning - Left foot steps out toward 10:30 with left palm block to wrist followed by right knife hand block to elbow. Press elbow till opponent turns toward 6:00. Left ridge hand to throat. 

   I find this version easier against a front punch and the redirect easier for an overhead strike. 

Ending of DM - Right tiger's rake from face to groin(if you can reach). Tigers rake back up till elbow hits the jaw and forces the head back. Right circular elbow to solar plexus followed by hammer to groin. Right elbow to jaw followed by twin circular palms to chest. *(Please don't do this while your partners head is back, I can't imagine someone being able to slap out properly from this position and it seems like it would do massive damage if they don't get their head up in time).*


----------



## SK101

RevIV said:


> I have #24 the same but ending with poison thumbs to the eyes.



DM(Combination) 24 often taught with iron thumbs, poison thumbs, immortal mans, or finger flicks. All are correct. 

I have never been told any advantage to using one or the other. Anyone gotten feedback on using different types of eye strikes?

It might seem like we jumped over 16-23, but the discussion on 24 came from a comment on 14 so were still in order just discussing 14 & 24 at the same time.


----------



## Hand Sword

It's Fred's system, if he says poison thumbs (and does) than, it's poison thumbs!


----------



## Matt

DavidCC said:


> Our 14 is completely different.  Not at all similar.  I wonder where it came from:
> 
> attack is a punch to the body or a straight kick
> step right foot back drawing into left 45-cat, with downward cross block
> step out of cat into left half-moon raising and uncrossing hands doing a double outward tiger-claw rake to face
> continue circular motion of hands to elbow position, then continue with immortal-man strikes to both eyes
> right front ball kick to solar plexus
> cross out
> 
> 
> does that read familiar to anyone?
> 
> -D



It sounds like a green belt kempo I had back in the day. It also bears a striking resemblance to comb. #24. Does it suprise you that #13 is usually taught after green belt. 

If you really want good insight into #13, go to a filipino Laban Laro seminar. Holy cow was that an eye opener. 

Matt


----------



## Matt

SK101 said:


> There is a version Professor I teaches at the end of the person laying across the knee. You perform twin crossed palms to the chest region. I would think this would be to drive the head faster to the floor. On that version I would highly advise people to have the students pick up the attacking students head before you deliver the palms. In my opinion with the head pressed back due to the previous elbow it should be almost impossible to slap out without hitting the head plus I would think with the spine in the curved position you would cause severe spinal column damage. Good for attackers, but not for fellow students.



Back in CT, we did a version with 'bear paws' above and below the heart to drive the person to the ground. The hope was, at least as they said, to burst the heart from the pressure. The bridge across the knee is pretty common in Hawaiian Kempo. 

Matt


----------



## 14 Kempo

RevIV said:


> I have #24 the same but ending with poison thumbs to the eyes.


 
Gees, do you people have to catch everything? I messed up, we finish with the two poison thumbs to the eyes as well ... Don't know where my head was ... don't say it.


----------



## Hand Sword

It's o.k., we all have those moments.


----------



## DavidCC

RevIV said:


> I have #24 the same but ending with poison thumbs to the eyes.


 

I wrote it wrong in my post.

it is thumb strikes to the eyes in our technique.

I don't know what our #24 is yet, I will have to go look that up...


----------



## DavidCC

SK101 said:


> DM(Combination) #15 -
> 
> Professor I version of beginning - Left foot steps out toward 10:30 with left palm block to wrist followed by right knife hand block to elbow. Press elbow till opponent turns toward 6:00. Left ridge hand to throat.


 
For 15 we do the right crossover step to 1030 with the left&right parries.  We step the left out then right as we do the left ridgehand to the neck.  Simultaneous with the ridge hand is a right thrust punch to the kidney (actually we use a pressure point strike here a little lower but let's just say "kidney"), and then supporting them on the knee.

Our finish is not the double palm chest slam, instead we do the rake, rake, elbow to solar plexus, hammer to bladder/abdomen, but then as the left hand is still controlling the neck, we grab the back of the head with the right and execute a neck twisting snap as we withdraw the knee.


----------



## Gufbal1982

DavidCC said:


> For 15 we do the right crossover step to 1030 with the left&right parries.  We step the left out then right as we do the left ridgehand to the neck.  Simultaneous with the ridge hand is a right thrust punch to the kidney (actually we use a pressure point strike here a little lower but let's just say "kidney"), and then supporting them on the knee.
> 
> Our finish is not the double palm chest slam, instead we do the rake, rake, elbow to solar plexus, hammer to bladder/abdomen, but then as the left hand is still controlling the neck, we grab the back of the head with the right and execute a neck twisting snap as we withdraw the knee.



There is a definate timing issue with the combination.  With every step you are doing 2 stikes with it.  You're also starting to understand the concept of rising and falling with your weight distribution to execute the strikes correctly.  

Besides that, I have also had the last knife hand strike as a hammer strike.  Nick cerio has a really rad "b" version of 15 but I don't know it...


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> For 15 we do the right crossover step to 1030 with the left&right parries. We step the left out then right as we do the left ridgehand to the neck. Simultaneous with the ridge hand is a right thrust punch to the kidney (actually we use a pressure point strike here a little lower but let's just say "kidney"), and then supporting them on the knee.
> 
> Our finish is not the double palm chest slam, instead we do the rake, rake, elbow to solar plexus, hammer to bladder/abdomen, but then as the left hand is still controlling the neck, we grab the back of the head with the right and execute a neck twisting snap as we withdraw the knee.


 
Sounds how I have it. In my FV days, we would end by using a left iron palm to the chest as we pulled the left leg from supporting the opponent. When you apply the iron palm, the opponents head would snap forward, chin to chest. Then as thier back hits the ground, you can imagine what happens to the head ... a major headache, at the least. Now, at USSD, we simply let them drop under thier own weight.


----------



## MJS

I was really never that crazy about #14. I had it with a left knife hand block, followed by a scissor kick. Personally, I'd rather stay planted and just do a right front kick, rather than jumping.

#15: Step forward with the right leg into a twist stance while performing a rt. upward block. Redirect their punch to their groin while stepping out with your left leg and striking with a left ridge hand to the side of their neck. Step back with the right leg pulling them onto your left leg as you do a right verticle punch to the kidney area. Rake down their body with a tiger claw with the right arm. Rake back on their body with a tiger claw with the right arm. Right dropping elbow to the face. While stepping back with the left leg, right hammer to the chest, dropping them on the ground.

Mike


----------



## RevIV

MJS said:


> I was really never that crazy about #14. I had it with a left knife hand block, followed by a scissor kick. Personally, I'd rather stay planted and just do a right front kick, rather than jumping.
> 
> #15: Step forward with the right leg into a twist stance while performing a rt. upward block. Redirect their punch to their groin while stepping out with your left leg and striking with a left ridge hand to the side of their neck. Step back with the right leg pulling them onto your left leg as you do a right verticle punch to the kidney area. Rake down their body with a tiger claw with the right arm. Rake back on their body with a tiger claw with the right arm. Right dropping elbow to the face. While stepping back with the left leg, right hammer to the chest, dropping them on the ground.
> 
> Mike


 
The one thing that bothers me is the rake down that so many people do.  How is this a rake?  You are not clawing anything, you are going down with the back of your nails.  seems more like a tickle.  I am not coming at you, this is the way that i had it originally and i just never understood the why.
Jesse


----------



## SK101

MJS said:


> I was really never that crazy about #14. I had it with a left knife hand block, followed by a scissor kick. Personally, I'd rather stay planted and just do a right front kick, rather than jumping.
> 
> You jump on 14 to deal with two attackers at the same time. If you have an extra second or two between attackers you can do front kick then back kick or vice versa.


----------



## marlon

kosho said:


> I have it as
> 
> step out with left foot as the attacker comes in. with belt in both hands deliver a block with the belt. left hand high right low.
> 
> once to block is made take your left hand and press down on the attackers arm. as your right hand comes up and delivers a right back two knuckle punch to the attackers face ( temple area).
> then flip the belt over the attackers head and shift your body around then and put your hip into there back and pull. this flpis them over.
> once on the ground place your right or left foot on to there body
> as you place the belt into the left hand ( so both ends of the belt are in the left hand. holding around the neck)
> pull with the right shutting of the blood flow the the brain.
> Kosho
> Thats how i learned it back in the early 80s


 
I have 13 slightly different
I do a right back 2 knuckle to the ribs then slam the middle of the belt into the attackers neck as i shuffle in to maintain close body contact.
the right arm goes over the attakcer head by rubbing across the face and pushing the chin upwards - back and to the right.  I find the punch to the head moves them away and it is harder to get the belt around the neck Once the attackers spine is mis allignerd my right leg steps clockwise into a horse stance or fighting stance and i cross my wrists over on the left side of my chest (the twisting encourages a choke).  The attacker can be pulled over the back / shoulder like a hip throw or you can step back with the left leg while pulling downwards and the attacker sort of slides down to the ground as you tighten the choke.
Does any find that the block with the belt eliminates many of the attacker weapons.  it is not skeletal freezing just positioning that makes counter attacking not flow easily.  Plus we end up fighting from the side which not everyone trains to do...an SK advantage that i enjoy.

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## SK101

RevIV said:


> The one thing that bothers me is the rake down that so many people do. How is this a rake? You are not clawing anything, you are going down with the back of your nails. seems more like a tickle. I am not coming at you, this is the way that i had it originally and i just never understood the why.
> Jesse


 
Professor I refers to this as clearing the meridian. What that means I have no idea, you would have to ask him. I haven't asked since I figure I am not at the stage of needing to work on meridian line details.


----------



## marlon

kosho said:


> OK<OK<OK Play nice LOL
> Comb 14. # 2 Block as you step back and then a sissor kick to the attackers solar plexus.
> Thats how I learned it back in the early 80's
> kosho


 
i like to leave out the block keeping the arm up as a guard and do the sicssor kick to the heart or plexus from about 4:30...so when i jump i angle off (escape )while moving my weight forwards and hit on the way down.  The counter weight of the back kick is essential for balance and control

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> Here is something i figured out on my extremely long trip back from Japan. to clarify on 13 when i do the throw it is over the left shoulder. Combination #13 is combination #3 with a belt. -- #3 left inward palm high, right punch low. (same position as when holding the belt) Push hand down in both tech. punch to head w/ right. #3 reaching behind to grab left shoulder. #13 wraps around towards left shoulder from front. then throw - i step back after the throw and tear the belt off the neck like i am starting the lawn mower. well that was one of my epiphanies. think about it, if you are a teacher and do 13 the way i do use it on your advanced students by asking them to find the 2 combinations that are almost idenitical from the foot work to hand positioning.
> In Peace
> Jesse


 
don't forget 29


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> I have #24 the same but ending with poison thumbs to the eyes.


 
mine has the thumbs also and you are constantly advancing on the attacker a little like a part of shotungkwa

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> The one thing that bothers me is the rake down that so many people do. How is this a rake? You are not clawing anything, you are going down with the back of your nails. seems more like a tickle. I am not coming at you, this is the way that i had it originally and i just never understood the why.
> Jesse


i have it as they are on my knee my left arm pushes their head to the right then a rt palm to the temple rt palm to the chest tiger to the groin and rake upwards to dig your fingers into those wonerful pressure points under the jaw and hank the head back tio stretch them out for a right dropping elbowe to the plexus and rt hammer to the groin or bladder.  step back with double droppping knife hands to the collar bones.

Jesse, i also saw some old footage on Nick cerio doing 15...it looked to me like he pointed his knee so the attacker (his brother in  the footage i think) fell spine firtst on to his knee.  Make sure you are in a forward stance and not a side on horse stance else your knee is in trouble.

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> Professor I refers to this as clearing the meridian. What that means I have no idea, you would have to ask him. I haven't asked since I figure I am not at the stage of needing to work on meridian line details.


 there is a main meridian that runs through the middle of the front of the body.  Perhaps the move effects the energy there clearing or emptying it so that the next strike has more effect...?  Just guessing here

Marlon


----------



## SK101

DM #16 - I find the leg check easier than the front ball version, but I like the front ball kick for shorter students. Any thoughts for or against either version?

Any thoughts on the 3 breaks - Axe kick landing on the ball of the foot, Drive the heel down, rotate the hips ccw?

Front punch to the base of the skull or thrust punch to temple. Any preferences?


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> DM #16 - I find the leg check easier than the front ball version, but I like the front ball kick for shorter students. Any thoughts for or against either version?
> 
> Any thoughts on the 3 breaks - Axe kick landing on the ball of the foot, Drive the heel down, rotate the hips ccw?
> 
> Front punch to the base of the skull or thrust punch to temple. Any preferences?


 

the break i have is of the arm with an axe kick and an shifting of the legs.  The thing aboiut this technique is the timing of the stop kick to the knee must be immediately followed with the palm strikes to the arm (at wrist and elbow)for the trap to work otherwise it is unrrealistic to think you can grab an arm out of the air.

it is nice but very similar to 69

respectfull,
marlon


----------



## RevIV

SK101 said:


> DM #16 - I find the leg check easier than the front ball version, but I like the front ball kick for shorter students. Any thoughts for or against either version?
> 
> Any thoughts on the 3 breaks - Axe kick landing on the ball of the foot, Drive the heel down, rotate the hips ccw?
> 
> Front punch to the base of the skull or thrust punch to temple. Any preferences?


 
thrust punch to temple is my preference.  Moving the head with left hand to make sure you hit the right spot and don't accidentally break your hand hitting the wrong spot.
Jesse


----------



## RevIV

marlon said:


> don't forget 29


 

I have a twist stance in 29.  and yes the anchoring principle is the same but i am refering to almost the fact that #3 and #13 are almost identical from start to finish.  I finish #3 with a step back with right foot on gaurd where #13 steps back with the necessity of ripping the belt off. Marlon surprised you are not in Atlantic City this weekend. I Know i am upset not being there but 2006 was an expensive year - wedding and Japan -- surprised i can afford to be on this computer.
Jesse


----------



## MJS

RevIV said:


> The one thing that bothers me is the rake down that so many people do. How is this a rake? You are not clawing anything, you are going down with the back of your nails. seems more like a tickle. I am not coming at you, this is the way that i had it originally and i just never understood the why.
> Jesse


 
Thats true.  It'd be more effective to omit that part and just do the upward rake.

Mike


----------



## MJS

SK101 said:


> MJS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was really never that crazy about #14. I had it with a left knife hand block, followed by a scissor kick. Personally, I'd rather stay planted and just do a right front kick, rather than jumping.
> 
> You jump on 14 to deal with two attackers at the same time. If you have an extra second or two between attackers you can do front kick then back kick or vice versa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, thats the way it was explained to me.  Personally, I'm not a big fan of jumping kicks.  If I'm dealing with more than one person, I'd much rather stay on the ground, than risk jumping into the air.  A front kick into a back kick is going to be just as effective IMO.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


----------



## Hand Sword

Amen to that! 

Although that's how it was taught to me also. A jumping scissor kick to the .....for me, knee caps-lol.


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> The thing about this technique is the timing of the stop kick to the knee must be immediately followed with the palm strikes to the arm (at wrist and elbow)for the trap to work otherwise it is unrrealistic to think you can grab an arm out of the air.



   How about using the arm break when someone grabs one hand by the throat. Any thoughts on using 16 as a grab technique begining with a loosing strike to the shin.  

   I don't know what the exact circumstances were, but there was an SK master who took advantage of someone poking their finger into his chest at a movie theatre. He just used the break though, no shin kick or follow up. I suppose once the arm is broken you really don't need the rest. 

   I never cared for twin palms. I like double Tiger mouths. Any thoughts Pro or Con? 

   Does anyone find the knee/shin check harder to do for shorter students versus the front ball kick?


----------



## SK101

DM #17 I would never half moon forward without an inner leg check. Any one have a version with a leg check? 

   In my opinion the face strike is more important than the groin strike since it is needed to stop the left punch. 

    When you hold a person in one spot and then hit them in the same spot one term used is anchoring (like wrap the head then thrust punch to nose) at the same time. When you hit someone in the nose then the groin such as in Pinan 2 one term is bouncing. When you hit the groin and face at the same time the body cannot do it's normal adjustment. Anyone have a name for this?

   Maybe this was gone over on 10, but there should be 4 parts practiced on the takedown for 17. Shuto to neck, Pulling opponents right arm, Dropping the weight and twisting the hips. OR Pull head to shoulder, Pulling opponents right arm, Dropping the weight and twisting the hips.

Spin 270 Degrees as this is when the opponent will stop spinning.

Thrust, Inverted thrust, then spearhand. Any other variations on the end?


----------



## SK101

DM # 18 - I like both the step forward on the takedown and the pull opponent in and turn toward 6:00 with takedown. 

There is a version of the pull opponent in which you start against a wall. Your cat stance is very short to say the least and you utilize the actual block for blocking unlike the regular version of the DM. As you pull your opponent in he goes head first into the wall. I would suspect the downward elbow would be more effective with the spine compressed. Any thoughts.

Pull opponents head toward your reverse hammer. Pros or cons to this interpretation?

Just like on DM 3 you don't need to see your opponent to know where the temple is.


----------



## SK101

DM#18 - There are at least 3 versions of the attack. T-Shirt version, Wall Version,  Resistance/Whiplash. Does anyone have other variations?


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> How about using the arm break when someone grabs one hand by the throat. Any thoughts on using 16 as a grab technique begining with a loosing strike to the shin.
> 
> I don't know what the exact circumstances were, but there was an SK master who took advantage of someone poking their finger into his chest at a movie theatre. He just used the break though, no shin kick or follow up. I suppose once the arm is broken you really don't need the rest.
> 
> I never cared for twin palms. I like double Tiger mouths. Any thoughts Pro or Con?
> 
> Does anyone find the knee/shin check harder to do for shorter students versus the front ball kick?


 
I'll have to experiment with a shin or knee kick on #16. I have it against a punch and without a stop kick into the upper torso, it seems there would be very little chance to trap the arm (I use tiger mouths, by the way). However, using it as a break or hyper-extension of the elbow/arm is very feasible.

I take it you're using the shin/knee kick to cause a loss of balance by the opponent and to allow him/her to continue moving forward. I can see how I could make that work ... just need to experiment a bit.


----------



## DavidCC

Our 16 is completely different.

We do the cross-step right to 1030 and double-parry, but then the arms reverse direction, the left checks the attacker's right downwards as the right hand comes over the top for a hammer fist to the bridge of the nose as the left steps to 12.  That's a really really poor write-up of what is a very flowing smooth technique...


----------



## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> I take it you're using the shin/knee kick to cause a loss of balance by the opponent and to allow him/her to continue moving forward. I can see how I could make that work ... just need to experiment a bit.


 
   I use the shin strike as a stop motion for the lower body, as for the off balancing I never thought about it, but it could be. The upper body is going to continue forward slightly or stop same as the front ball kick to the solar plexus version. Arm is extended while the person is dealing with the shin strike allowing the break to be used. 

   It sounds like you have a version where you trap the arm. I haven't tried that before, but I will try to play with it just to see how it feels. Do you trap by pulling into the chest or just using the tiger's mouths?

   The interpretation I teach is from Professor I. I have only had it for a year or so. Professor I would definatly have a better explanation than I do.


----------



## SK101

DavidCC said:


> Our 16 is completely different.
> 
> We do the cross-step right to 1030 and double-parry, but then the arms reverse direction, the left checks the attacker's right downwards as the right hand comes over the top for a hammer fist to the bridge of the nose as the left steps to 12. That's a really really poor write-up of what is a very flowing smooth technique...


 
Hey David that beginning sound like the same motion as Villari has on his videos for the blocks/breaks during the Tiger walk & other parts of the form. Double blocks outside arm followed by inner Tiger's mouths breaking the elbow. 

I have only seen this on the video. I have never tried it. I always had just twin blocks on 4 Pinan. Has any had that version from P4 and does it sound to you like the beginning of David's(CNG's?) #16 - the footwork obviously?


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> I use the shin strike as a stop motion for the lower body, as for the off balancing I never thought about it, but it could be. The upper body is going to continue forward slightly or stop same as the front ball kick to the solar plexus version. Arm is extended while the person is dealing with the shin strike allowing the break to be used.
> 
> It sounds like you have a version where you trap the arm. I haven't tried that before, but I will try to play with it just to see how it feels. Do you trap by pulling into the chest or just using the tiger's mouths?
> 
> The interpretation I teach is from Professor I. I have only had it for a year or so. Professor I would definatly have a better explanation than I do.


 
Use the front kick as a stopper, it should hit at the same time or just prior to the trap. It would be very difficult to trap the arm without stopping the opponents forward momentum first ... It can be done, but the timing is very difficult. The trap is with the tiger mouths, left at or slightly above the opponents right elbow, the right at the opponents right wrist. After this, we turn clockwise appliying an armbar to bring the opponent to his knees (this applies to the 'back to a wall' technique as well). The rest seems to be very similar, left axe kick, twist counter-clockwise, thrust punch to the temple. How many breaks/hyperextentions of that right arm are there? three? ... LOL


----------



## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> Use the front kick as a stopper, it should hit at the same time or just prior to the trap. It would be very difficult to trap the arm without stopping the opponents forward momentum first ... It can be done, but the timing is very difficult. The trap is with the tiger mouths, left at or slightly above the opponents right elbow, the right at the opponents right wrist. After this, we turn clockwise appliying an armbar to bring the opponent to his knees (this applies to the 'back to a wall' technique as well). The rest seems to be very similar, left axe kick, twist counter-clockwise, thrust punch to the temple. How many breaks/hyperextentions of that right arm are there? three? ... LOL


 
There are at least 3 breaks just on the axe kick twist - 1) Axe landing on the ball of the foot 2) Drop the heel 3) Twist the hips. Don't get me wrong people can do two here if they want, but it is possible to do 3 breaks. If you experiment with this be super careful! Sorry, but I am paranoid. For students who ask and don't get sick when you mention ripping eyes out, you do the 3 breaks to create a compound fracture(bone coming through the skin). I don't do the the palm press to elbow that some people do before the axe kick. Nothing against it, I just didn't learn it that way so I haven't taken the time to try it. Anyone using the palm to elbow break?

On the wall version can you finish the same? Thanks for that concept, I was not aware of it. Any other DMs besides 16 & 18 with wall versions?

Master Malgozzi(probably spellng wrong) demonstrated a concaving chest version for this break - Shoulders stayed forward while your chest "sucked in" to absord a chest punch then break the arm. It was just the break he was demonstrating not 16. I know I have heard martial artists complain about letting someone hit you in order to counter, but I am just passing on what was shown.


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> On the wall version can you finish the same? Thanks for that concept, I was not aware of it. Any other DMs besides 16 & 18 with wall versions?


 
With the wall version, there is no need to go any further. With the take down on both 16 and 18, you have driven the opponents head into a wall, car, tree ... whatever was at your back. There is no room, nor is there a need to continue.


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> How about using the arm break when someone grabs one hand by the throat. Any thoughts on using 16 as a grab technique begining with a loosing strike to the shin.
> 
> I don't know what the exact circumstances were, but there was an SK master who took advantage of someone poking their finger into his chest at a movie theatre. He just used the break though, no shin kick or follow up. I suppose once the arm is broken you really don't need the rest.
> 
> I never cared for twin palms. I like double Tiger mouths. Any thoughts Pro or Con?
> 
> Does anyone find the knee/shin check harder to do for shorter students versus the front ball kick?


 
I like an open tiger's mouth at the wrist and a palm at the elbow...it works for that first arm break in the combination.  

I am short...I like using the front ball kick to just about any area that I can for that combination.  It's just a mechanism to stop the person from coming closer.


----------



## SK101

"You say snakes all I hear is Easter Bunny"

Huh????


----------



## Iron Leopard

I always prefered the double tigers mouths ..arm break and I like the quick transition to arm bar as needed.  I like this one for a lot of drills I can fill up an hour long class on 16! ok probably two.


----------



## Hand Sword

I did too. If it missed, at least I had some control of the arm. Doubling palming and a miss, right through and take a hit or fumble for control.


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> "You say snakes all I hear is Easter Bunny"
> 
> Huh????


 
Hey man...don't mock my quote.  It's from a really funny cartoon called aqua teen hunger force.


----------



## Hand Sword

Could we all stick to the topic of SKK combo's please. PM each other for the other stuff. Thanks.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Iron Leopard said:


> I always prefered the double tigers mouths ..arm break and I like the quick transition to arm bar as needed. I like this one for a lot of drills I can fill up an hour long class on 16! ok probably two.


 
Chances are, for me, I'm not doing an armbar.  As I constantly post, I am short (I'm only 5' 4").  It seems like everyone and their mother is taller than I am, so I have adapted the combination for me.  Plus, I have really small hands...my 8 year old cousin has hands that are almost as big as mine.  With that being said, I would have to get the wrist control dead on for an arm to work for me.  After 20 years, I do not see that actually happening for me.  My best bet is to stop the person with the kick, break the arm and run away.  I can totally see where you are coming from...seeing as you are a guy, with probably bigger hands than I have, as well as more strength.  If it doesn't work when you start, you can fudge your way by using brut strength.  As a female, I don't have that option.  So, if I seem like I am changing combinations, I am doing what works for me when I practice with partners.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Hand Sword said:


> Could we all stick to the topic of SKK combo's please. PM each other for the other stuff. Thanks.


 
Sorry handsword...I had to respond to that attack on me.  I'll do it in PM from now on.


----------



## Hand Sword

As well, you should. Doing that was always preached by our instructors. Plus, it's what you'll do for real. So, fudge away.


----------



## Hand Sword

Gufbal1982 said:


> Sorry handsword...I had to respond to that attack on me. I'll do it in PM from now on.


 
 Understood, and much appreciated!


----------



## kosho

Comb 18 I think we are here???

for me i never move backwards to move forwards. so

as the attacker comes in I do not draw back into a cat stance and do a low block.

I have my body leaning to my left side alittle to draw the attacker to that side. as I see motion from him or her. I shift to my right and step out to a angle 7 as I deliver a left back hand strike to my attackers temple area.
I then place my left hand on the attackers shoulder and settle there hips and put wieght in there feet freezeing them for a second as i deliever a left knee to there mid section. as they bend or fold I shift my body and deliver a right elbow to the spine and then follow it with a right hammer strike to there jaw or head area. step and cover.

The ending is the same i learned it just the starting i have changed a little.
your thoughts
 thanks
kosho


----------



## 14 Kempo

#18
Right cat stance, downward, inside/out parry block to allow thier momentum to continue towards me. Step in with the left foot, to the inside of the opponents stance. Here I provide a leg check to the knee to upset the balance of the opponent while delivering a left back hand strike to the right side of the opponents face, along the jaw line. Important here to step to the inside, this is to not expose your groin. Grab the opponents left shoulder, pull and drop the elbow to move the opponent off his/her center. Drop the left foot back, deliver a downward elbow strike to the spine as the opponent falls, followed by a right reverse hammer strike to the temple as I pull them into that strike with my left grasp of thier shoulder.


----------



## marlon

kosho said:


> Comb 18 I think we are here???
> 
> for me i never move backwards to move forwards. so
> 
> as the attacker comes in I do not draw back into a cat stance and do a low block.
> 
> I have my body leaning to my left side alittle to draw the attacker to that side. as I see motion from him or her. I shift to my right and step out to a angle 7 as I deliver a left back hand strike to my attackers temple area.
> I then place my left hand on the attackers shoulder and settle there hips and put wieght in there feet freezeing them for a second as i deliever a left knee to there mid section. as they bend or fold I shift my body and deliver a right elbow to the spine and then follow it with a right hammer strike to there jaw or head area. step and cover.
> 
> The ending is the same i learned it just the starting i have changed a little.
> your thoughts
> thanks
> kosho


 
I step back towards 5:00 so as not to be in the direct line of attack...does that count as a move twice yet?  as i sink into a cat stance with a left open hand downward block.  I "wave" foward from 5:00 with a back hand strike to th temple as i step into a forward stance.  I continue the motion of my arm circular and downwards . press. as i step with the right leg into a horse stance and strike with a dropping elbow to the spine.
I like this technique for the power derive fro mthe wave - like motion of the strike and for the disruption of balance used with the angle of counter and spinal manipulation ( neck)

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> How about using the arm break when someone grabs one hand by the throat. Any thoughts on using 16 as a grab technique begining with a loosing strike to the shin.
> 
> Sounds good.  I think you would have to step towards 4:00 instead of stepping back if the attack was a two handed strike.  I prefer it for a hirt grab than a choke b/c the kick might just have the person collapse forward and bend their arms enough to increase the difficulty of the rest of the combo..and well when you are being choked time is a big factor
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> DM #17 I would never half moon forward without an inner leg check. Any one have a version with a leg check?
> 
> In my opinion the face strike is more important than the groin strike since it is needed to stop the left punch.
> 
> When you hold a person in one spot and then hit them in the same spot one term used is anchoring (like wrap the head then thrust punch to nose) at the same time. When you hit someone in the nose then the groin such as in Pinan 2 one term is bouncing. When you hit the groin and face at the same time the body cannot do it's normal adjustment. Anyone have a name for this?
> 
> Maybe this was gone over on 10, but there should be 4 parts practiced on the takedown for 17. Shuto to neck, Pulling opponents right arm, Dropping the weight and twisting the hips. OR Pull head to shoulder, Pulling opponents right arm, Dropping the weight and twisting the hips.
> 
> Spin 270 Degrees as this is when the opponent will stop spinning.
> 
> Thrust, Inverted thrust, then spearhand. Any other variations on the end?


 
Every time you step i can be a kick, i try to teach the combo in a set manner but do show these kinds of variations (good for teaching forms also).  I use the head pull in 10 and concentrate on getting the takedown with the shuto and off balance with the arm control, i like to train different things with different combos..  my ending is rt front 2 knuckle , lt front 2 knuckle ( to the ribs)and inverted spear to the throat.  Shihan I often uses a driving knife to the neck as a final strike.

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> Every time you step i can be a kick, i try to teach the combo in a set manner but do show these kinds of variations (good for teaching forms also). I use the head pull in 10 and concentrate on getting the takedown with the shuto and off balance with the arm control, i like to train different things with different combos.. my ending is rt front 2 knuckle , lt front 2 knuckle ( to the ribs)and inverted spear to the throat. Shihan I often uses a driving knife to the neck as a final strike.
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
DM # 10 Would you consider a leg check integral to using 10 off a real punch? If not do you consider the groin strike the stopping mechanism for the left punch or perhaps right hand going from the strike position to a check position as it chambers for the shuto strike?

DM # 16 My concern with the lapel/shirt grab is the position of the arm. I always think of the attacker as having their arm heavily bent. Any thoughts on being able to extend the arm from that grab version or just go to the regular lapel/shirt grab if they bend the arm?


----------



## kosho

Marlon,
          When you have a action. and you react to that action you are playing defense.
( punch , block punch, block)

when you have a action and react to that and cause a action then you have just taken control of the action. so you are now in theary controlling your attackers movements. that is one of many ways to move twice...


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> DM # 10 Would you consider a leg check integral to using 10 off a real punch? If not do you consider the groin strike the stopping mechanism for the left punch or perhaps right hand going from the strike position to a check position as it chambers for the shuto strike?
> 
> DM # 16 My concern with the lapel/shirt grab is the position of the arm. I always think of the attacker as having their arm heavily bent. Any thoughts on being able to extend the arm from that grab version or just go to the regular lapel/shirt grab if they bend the arm?


 

For 10 you could use a stop kck, however i keep a strong aiki flow with this combo.

for 16 by stepping to 2:00 th arm thing is neutralized, also, a kick to the bladder can help extend thier arms also

Marlon


----------



## marlon

kosho said:


> Marlon,
> When you have a action. and you react to that action you are playing defense.
> ( punch , block punch, block)
> 
> when you have a action and react to that and cause a action then you have just taken control of the action. so you are now in theary controlling your attackers movements. that is one of many ways to move twice...


 
We were discussing the combo from a punch i thought.

And for 18 the initial move could be a downward tiger rake to the face as you sink your your center (cat stance...?) then attack the spine through the neck while stepping into or towards the persons' center line etc....
i was only playing before.  thanks fo the thoughts though kosho conceptualizations an vocabulary are interesting and helpful

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## kosho

all the combs  can be done from a punch, a grab, a kife, a club...
with this in mind, combs now become a ton of information.
as far as the move twice. Sorry I thought that was a real question.
I try and stay with in the subject the best I can but some times you must step out side the box... LOL
In class last night we where working some  combs. I just love the physical part of training. and looking deeper into what has been passed on. 
Kempo grows every day as you change so does kempo.
are we on comb 19 now?
Take care
Kosho


----------



## SK101

kosho said:


> all the combs can be done from a punch, a grab, a kife, a club...
> with this in mind, combs now become a ton of information.
> as far as the move twice. Sorry I thought that was a real question.
> I try and stay with in the subject the best I can but some times you must step out side the box... LOL
> In class last night we where working some combs. I just love the physical part of training. and looking deeper into what has been passed on.
> Kempo grows every day as you change so does kempo.
> are we on comb 19 now?
> Take care
> Kosho


 
I am always reluctant to post something that might be seen as a disagreement. Hopefully it will be understood I am not disagreeing just clarifying my thoughts on my interpretation of applying the above post.  

In my humble opinion, a DM may be usable for several attacks, but it must be remembered that if you force the DM to stay exactly the same or too close to the same you will often violate SK principles. For instance DM 17 against an overhead club would violate the "always move toward a club unless the person is to far to hit you principle". The twin tigers would have to be modified since they would violate the "always maintain control of the weapon principle". If I modify the technique than obviously that is a different story.

I would say the two primary things to alter to vary a technique from one situation to the next are footwork & the block/evasion/etc.  

You can't force every DM to make sense off of every type of attack in my humble opinion. DM 3 is probably best off attacks where you can move to the outside. Although I am sure many of you guys/gals are more talented than I am and can start on the inside and rotate back to the outside without making the technique to whacky.


----------



## DavidCC

kosho said:


> all the combs can be done from a punch, a grab, a kife, a club...
> with this in mind, combs now become a ton of information.
> Take care
> Kosho


 
I believe this and we work with this idea to some extent.

But we have seperate categories: 
26 "Shaolin Defense Maneuvers" (vs punch or punches)
15 Grab defenses
10 Knife defenses
10 Club defenses
10 Gun defenses

do other SKK schools organize them like this?  or is that why you all have 108 combos


----------



## Danjo

DavidCC said:


> I believe this and we work with this idea to some extent.
> 
> But we have seperate categories:
> 26 "Shaolin Defense Maneuvers" (vs punch or punches)
> 15 Grab defenses
> 10 Knife defenses
> 10 Club defenses
> 10 Gun defenses
> 
> do other SKK schools organize them like this? or is that why you all have 108 combos


 
If I remember the Knife, Club and Gun counters were all up to the individual Cheif Intsructors.


----------



## MJS

I'm a bit behind on this, so I'll go ahead and post 16, 17, and 18.

16: step back with right as you do 2 inward parry strikes to the arm, one at wrist level and the other at the elbow.  Right front kick to the groin.  Land forward with right.  Step over arm with left.  Opponents arm is now between your legs.  Break.  Step over with right and punch to the head.

17: Right steps back.  I had the next move as a right inward/left outward parry.  Step forward striking the face and groin with tiger claw strikes.  Wrap arm with your left.  Right bearpaw to the head, pulling their head to your chest.  Left steps back taking them down.  Right punch to the face and a left, right spear hand to throat.

18: Draw back into a left cat, as you downward parry the punch with your left.  Step forward with left delivering a left bent wrist strike to the face.  Left hand grabs the back of the neck.  Step back with left, pulling opponent down.  Right downward elbow to back.  Pivot and deliver a right hammerfist strike to side of head.


----------



## Hand Sword

Ill give mine too.

16: Two tiger mouth's to incom ing punch, with right kick to the groin. Arm bar captured arm at right hip, step over and break by twisting, step over and punch to the neck/mastoid.

!7. My last version, just step in with the right foot, bobbing and weaving (for those who said it doesn't exist in SKK), left claw to face and right claw to groin, wrap punching arm with left, bear claw/ or just come up with a plam heel to the chin, while pulling the them down, and punch, punch spear to throat.

18. Draw back into left cat stance, lightly press blocking punch with your left hand, pulling them in slightly. Spring forward with a left back hand (straight on, putting your weight behind it) reach behind head, grab, and quickly pull forward, while stepping back with the left foot. Drop right elbow to spine, and hammer to side of face.


----------



## kosho

*SK101 *   Thats  whats great about this web page.   and SKK  what are base Idears  and what I think works for me and my students may not work as well for you or others. And thats ok. I take what some of you say here and lisen and some others I just do not...

Most if not all my SKK now has kosho idears behind them From 
Master Evans  and Hanshi Juchnik teachings. 

*Comb 19.*  the punch comes in and I shift to a angle 6 as I deliver a open hand # 2 block. I deliver a front kick to the attackers center.
as he bends from this I deliver a left palm strike to his jaw. and follow this with by grabbing the back of his head. and delivering a right elbow to his back.  taking my right hand i shift his hip and press with my left hand 
by his neck and twist head and neck down ward to roll the attacker. once down i deliver a shuto to the throat.
I think thats how I learned it back then...
Kosho


----------



## MJS

19:  This is one that always gave me problems.  

Step back with right.  Execute a left outward block.  Right front kick to groin.  The left hand delivers a palm/push down to the head.  Right elbow to the back.  Right hand grabs to the groin as you push the head down with the left, flipping the person over.  Right spear hand to throat.

My problem with this tech is the flip.  Maybe I'm missing a fine point, but I just can't see this working with ease.

I'm open for suggestions/tips. 

Mike


----------



## 14 Kempo

#19 
Drop right foot back into left foot forward half-moon stance.
Use #2 open hand block.
Right instep kick to groin, land in right foot forward half-moon stance.
Left shuto (knife hand) strike to side of neck, wrap and pull head down and to your right side.
Right downward elbow to the spine.
Right hand grabs belt while pressing opponent down with elbow.
Left hand grabs opponents right ankle to control as you flip him over.
Right shuto (knife hand) to the throat.


----------



## MJS

kosho said:


> all the combs can be done from a punch, a grab, a kife, a club...
> with this in mind, combs now become a ton of information.
> as far as the move twice. Sorry I thought that was a real question.
> I try and stay with in the subject the best I can but some times you must step out side the box... LOL
> In class last night we where working some combs. I just love the physical part of training. and looking deeper into what has been passed on.
> Kempo grows every day as you change so does kempo.
> are we on comb 19 now?
> Take care
> Kosho


 
True.  During the recent seminar, I got some pretty good ideas from Jesse Dwire on #1.


----------



## kosho

He is at cape cod  yes????

and a student of prof ingargiloa and Prof kimo's
i think
 kosho


----------



## marlon

MJS said:


> 19: This is one that always gave me problems.
> 
> Step back with right. Execute a left outward block. Right front kick to groin. The left hand delivers a palm/push down to the head. Right elbow to the back. Right hand grabs to the groin as you push the head down with the left, flipping the person over. Right spear hand to throat.
> 
> My problem with this tech is the flip. Maybe I'm missing a fine point, but I just can't see this working with ease.
> 
> I'm open for suggestions/tips.
> 
> Mike


 

I never step back with this one nor with 17.  0/Pen hand block 2 with a left snap kick to the groin.  I find that a front ball kick pushes them away. I have a left shuto to the neck then grab the neck and pull downwards as the right leg steps to uke's center with a rt dropping elbow.  After the elbow it is important to press down as you slide your hand to the back of the neck.  the strike to the groin helps to create the necessary dynamic for the attacker to be rolled over the center axis.  make a  cw circle with the hands and do not just press down and get your back leg out of the way...if it is the right leg step to the left into a forward stance (left).More of a roll than a flip, really.  End with a knife to the throat.

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

DavidCC said:


> I believe this and we work with this idea to some extent.
> 
> But we have seperate categories:
> 26 "Shaolin Defense Maneuvers" (vs punch or punches)
> 15 Grab defenses
> 10 Knife defenses
> 10 Club defenses
> 10 Gun defenses
> 
> do other SKK schools or
> 
> this is what we require to test for shodan
> ​Material For Shodan:​Teaching ability, knowledge and understanding and skill with the basics and all previous curriculum material​*23 Combinations​*_​_: 1-20, 24, 21, 26
> *12 knife techniques*: uppercut, 2 straight to the stomach, straight Ghately, 3 overhead, 2 slashing, slash and miss, pointed at the neck, at the neck from behind​*8clubs​*: slashing to the ground, double clubs, straight in poke, overhead, slashing front and behind, rolling elbow, push
> 2 guns: close range and distant​*15 takedowns​*_​_: Concept of taking both pillars and related techniques, judo lift, sweep and pull with the legs, leopard tackle, front and back sweep, ogoshi, ippon, tai otoshi, leverage arm and leg (circular), hip block, hock down, kneel down, tiger roll​*25 Animals​*_​_: 5 leopards, 5 tigers, 5 cranes, 5 dragons, 5 snakes​_15 SSDC​_: 3 Dragons, 3 snakes, 3 tigers, 3 leopards, 3 cranes​*11 Drills​*_​_: Sparring multiple opponents, blindfolded kumite, sticky legs, kempo sparring to the ground, bo set, back grabs with motion, blocking multiple attackers, shadow boxing, gauntlet, dragon circle, techniques against multiple hand strikes and kicks​*27 Jujitsus​*_​_: Arm lock to the ground, escapes from grabs, elbow lock to chest, elbow lock to the back, arm lock and against the wall, 2 lapel grabs, front strangle and 2 from the rear, 4 double lapel grabs, wrist grab single and double, bear hug, head lock front and side, front ball and roundhouse counters, 2 full nelson, hair grab front and rear​*18 forms​*_​_: 1-5 pinan, 1-5 kata, Statue of the Crane, Heian Nidan, 2 Man Fist Set, jo form, bo form 1, Shushi No Kon Sho, rising sun, pushing palm​Respectfully,
> Marlon


----------



## MJS

kosho said:


> He is at cape cod yes????
> 
> and a student of prof ingargiloa and Prof kimo's
> i think
> kosho


 

www.dpkempo.com


----------



## kosho

MJS, Thanks I will check out his web page..
 kosho


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## kosho

this is what we require to test for shodan

Material For Shodan:​Teaching ability, knowledge and understanding and skill with the basics and all previous curriculum material​*23 Combinations​*: 1-20, 24, 21, 26
*12 knife techniques*: uppercut, 2 straight to the stomach, straight Ghately, 3 overhead, 2 slashing, slash and miss, pointed at the neck, at the neck from behind​*8clubs​*: slashing to the ground, double clubs, straight in poke, overhead, slashing front and behind, rolling elbow, push
2 guns: close range and distant​*15 takedowns​*: Concept of taking both pillars and related techniques, judo lift, sweep and pull with the legs, leopard tackle, front and back sweep, ogoshi, ippon, tai otoshi, leverage arm and leg (circular), hip block, hock down, kneel down, tiger roll​*25 Animals​*: 5 leopards, 5 tigers, 5 cranes, 5 dragons, 5 snakes​_15 SSDC​_: 3 Dragons, 3 snakes, 3 tigers, 3 leopards, 3 cranes​*11 Drills​*: Sparring multiple opponents, blindfolded kumite, sticky legs, kempo sparring to the ground, bo set, back grabs with motion, blocking multiple attackers, shadow boxing, gauntlet, dragon circle, techniques against multiple hand strikes and kicks​*27 Jujitsus​*: Arm lock to the ground, escapes from grabs, elbow lock to chest, elbow lock to the back, arm lock and against the wall, 2 lapel grabs, front strangle and 2 from the rear, 4 double lapel grabs, wrist grab single and double, bear hug, head lock front and side, front ball and roundhouse counters, 2 full nelson, hair grab front and rear​*18 forms​*: 1-5 pinan, 1-5 kata, Statue of the Crane, Heian Nidan, 2 Man Fist Set, jo form, bo form 1, Shushi No Kon Sho, rising sun, pushing palm​Respectfully,
Marlon
_______________________________________________________________

1st degree for my students.

kempo's 1-32
combs 1-26
hand strike 35
blocks 1-8 / 1-8 w counter 1-8 open hand 1-8 closed/
10 point / 10 point w strike  / leaf blocking 
kicks 18
stances 10 different
strong on history / counting to 1 - 100 / passed teachers
Octagon work / shodo / Kosho priciaples / katana parts  and 5 katas
shiatsu basics / Pressure points basics
forms  1-5 pinion /1-5 kata /statue of Crane/ circle of leopard /
staff for 1 / nunchuk form 1 / neko buto shodan / junn ippo 1-3
pinion, shodan, nidan, sandan, Etc. total (5)  pinion geri
North side / south side
I think thats it (26) (31) with katanas
self defense 1-5 of grabs etc. for a total of (40)
Gound work there are about 75 teq here...Just ground work
Dot man / Naga work / and a 100 question and a 5 page written paper before a 2 day 16 hr test...  Give or take... spelling and what not I rushed this  but thats about it to 1st degree
About 6 - 8 years to get there under me...
Kosho


----------



## SK101

Shodan Requirements - 

DMs 2-9,11-18,21,26
Kempos - None
Clubs - Overhead 1-3, Side 1-2, Straight Knife 1-3, Special knife defenses such as knife to throat ect. 
Guns - 1-3
8 Point Blocking, 10 Point, 4 Point, Plumtree, 11 Hands of Shaolin(Buddah)
Weapons(Nunchuck etc) - None
Pinans(Pinions 1-5), Katas(1-2), Statu(r)e of the Crane, 
Two Person Fist Set N/S, Pinan 1 w/kicks
Ability to spar full size adults no matter the age of student
Grab Sets 1-3

Everything else I teach is to practice, but not to memorize unless the student has an easy time with all areas - sparring, fitness, shodan requirements, etc., etc., etc.


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## marlon

i left out stances , hand strikes and kick because well...no good reason i guess.  but i should haver included 8 point open and closed with natural strikes, ten point, 4 point and plum tree, bo blocking, palm trap wind mill dragon trap...

marlon


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## kosho

But if you look at the over all core of all of us  its just about the same..
Take care,
 kosho


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## marlon

yup.. this is a good thing i think


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## DavidCC

It looks like the material covered is all pretty much there, we just have defined and numbered the weapon techs.

We have lots of other stuff req'd for shodan, that's just the techniques...


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## Matt

kosho said:


> He is at cape cod  yes????
> 
> and a student of prof ingargiloa and Prof kimo's
> i think
> kosho



Actually Master Dwire is in Chelmsford. Master Hatch (and me as well) is in Cape Cod.


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## kosho

*Actually Master Dwire is in Chelmsford. Master Hatch (and me as well) is in Cape Cod*

Thanks,
Look forward  to meeting you some time..
kosho


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## Iron Leopard

shodan requirements look very close to what I have as well.  1-21 combos plus 26 30-40 kempo punch techniques.  5 of each knife defense and club defense that's 20 total techniques there plus 1-6 kata 1-5 pinan stature of crane, both sides of two man fist set 10 point, plum tree and buhda palms blocking system.  and all the other stuff. power, fluidity, solid stances, sparring and fighting ability, ground fighting techniques, balance, the combos alone will show knowledge of 13 take downs ( I know that some are very similar but the principles are different) as well as a dozen take downs in the kempo techniques. as well as the basic strikes kicks and movement drills. and still more after that!


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## Hand Sword

What number are we on?


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## 14 Kempo

Hand Sword said:


> What number are we on?


 
Last one I remember was #19, so I think we would be moving onto #20


----------



## Hand Sword

Alright. 

My last version...Side step to your right, with your right foot, #2 open knife hand block (strike) at the wrist, and right tiger mouth to the throat. Wrap up arm with your left arm, Right leg hok, with a right round elbow to jaw, or chest area, for takedown. Right front punch, right knife hand.


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## 14 Kempo

#20 - Slight side step to the right, really more of a weight shift to the right, since we start in a fighting stance anyway. Both hands chamber high over the right shoulder. Step drag inward with the left foot. Left knife hand strikes the opponents lower right arm. Right downward knife hand strikes the opponents left clavicle. Left arm wraps the opponents right arm above the right elbow. Right leg hock down with right hand tigers mouth to the throat. Finish the same, right front punch to the face, right circular knife hand strike to the nose.


----------



## Hand Sword

14 Kempo said:


> #20 - Slight side step to the right, really more of a weight shift to the right, since we start in a fighting stance anyway. Both hands chamber high over the right shoulder. Step drag inward with the left foot. Left knife hand strikes the opponents lower right arm. Right downward knife hand strikes the opponents left clavicle. Left arm wraps the opponents right arm above the right elbow. Right leg hock down with right hand tigers mouth to the throat. Finish the same, right front punch to the face, right circular knife hand strike to the nose.


 
That was my original version too. Just figured I'd go with, what apparenty is the now version.


----------



## 14 Kempo

Hand Sword said:


> That was my original version too. Just figured I'd go with, what apparenty is the now version.


 
Well, I'm definately a proponent for contact, I actually like closing the distance hard with torso and leg contact, that knocks the opponent off balance ... it hits hard ... and it also takes the possible left out of the picture. If I miss the wrap, the opponent is fighting to gain balance, I still have the advantage to follow up.


----------



## Hand Sword

(that's how we emphasized it too)


----------



## SK101

Two variations on the guard(hand position as you move away or lean). 

1- Bring hands above right shoulder. Advantage is power.
2- bring hands only to the left side of your head. Advantage is protection.

Basics on 20- I know people posting here will have these, but it's good to review and maybe there are others reading who don't have these or haven't heard them in awhile.

When you feel extremly comfortable with a DM(Combo) stay close to the attack. It is hard to counter when you have a distance to cover. 

Always off balance an opponent before hawking them down.

Palm to the chest is often taught in the place of Tiger's mouth to throat for safety.

Tiger's mouth to throat leads into another attack that is extremly dangerous to practice early on. 

When holding the opponent's elbow keep him at a 45 degree angle. 

An opponent on the floor has the balance advantage since they can't fall.


----------



## SK101

Final Strikes on 20 - Does anyone have reasons for where they strike? I.E. on DM 4 immortal mans to the eyes creates intense presure on the temples than you strike the temples with the trigger fingers or trigger fingers to the temples "bugs" the eyes out then you stick immortal mans in them.

I have front punch to temple then shuto to nose to end 20. I don't recall ever hearing a reason given for the strikes besides there nice targets. 

Anyone have variations and/or reasons?


----------



## marlon

14 Kempo said:


> #20 - Slight side step to the right, really more of a weight shift to the right, since we start in a fighting stance anyway. Both hands chamber high over the right shoulder. Step drag inward with the left foot. Left knife hand strikes the opponents lower right arm. Right downward knife hand strikes the opponents left clavicle. Left arm wraps the opponents right arm above the right elbow. Right leg hock down with right hand tigers mouth to the throat. Finish the same, right front punch to the face, right circular knife hand strike to the nose.


 

We shift wieght to the right and the hands move with you and only slightly raised for protection and power.  The strikes i have are to the arm and to the right cheek bone striking slightly upwards.  The step is extremely important for positioning, power and distruption of the attacker's platform to counter.  After the arm wrap we do a tiger mouth to the throat and continue to walk towards 10:30 for the takedown..no leg hock (the power of this move can be seen in a Segal movie...something with him on a train...the hock is not necessary.  at the end we brace the arm on the left shin , thrust to the head and spear poke to the arm pit.
the shift at the beginning i look at more as angling for attack than an escape but also good for that.

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> We shift wieght to the right and the hands move with you and only slightly raised for protection and power. The strikes i have are to the arm and to the right cheek bone striking slightly upwards. The step is extremely important for positioning, power and distruption of the attacker's platform to counter. After the arm wrap we do a tiger mouth to the throat and continue to walk towards 10:30 for the takedown..no leg hock (the power of this move can be seen in a Segal movie...something with him on a train...the hock is not necessary. at the end we brace the arm on the left shin , thrust to the head and spear poke to the arm pit.
> the shift at the beginning i look at more as angling for attack than an escape but also good for that.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
I'm certainly liking the different strike points. With the very aggressive move made inward, it is sometimes hard to get onto the clavicle at the angle necessary. I like the tigers mouth to the throat and the cheekbone attack ... nice ... got me thinking as well, maybe even an elbow strike. I definately need to experiment more with #20.


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> Two variations on the guard(hand position as you move away or lean).
> 
> 1- Bring hands above right shoulder. Advantage is power.
> 2- bring hands only to the left side of your head. Advantage is protection.
> 
> Basics on 20- I know people posting here will have these, but it's good to review and maybe there are others reading who don't have these or haven't heard them in awhile.
> 
> When you feel extremly comfortable with a DM(Combo) stay close to the attack. It is hard to counter when you have a distance to cover.
> 
> Always off balance an opponent before hawking them down.
> 
> Palm to the chest is often taught in the place of Tiger's mouth to throat for safety.
> 
> Tiger's mouth to throat leads into another attack that is extremly dangerous to practice early on.
> 
> When holding the opponent's elbow keep him at a 45 degree angle.
> 
> An opponent on the floor has the balance advantage since they can't fall.


 
FVSSD has a different way of doing 20.  There way is:

1. Draw in a cat and execute a left outward knifehand block.
2. Wrap the arm with the left while executing a dead arm strike to the collar bone with the right arm.
3. Right tiger's mouth to the throar.
4. Right elbow to the jaw as you leg hawk with the right leg.
5. Front 2 knuckle to the nose with the right followed by a spear hand poke to the throat.


----------



## SK101

DM(Combination) 21 - Right foot steps back w/#2 knifehand block & grab. Step right foot toward opponents right arm with leopard paw to armpit as you step under opponment's arm. Step left foot behind opponent. Left downward elbow meets oppponent's rising arm. Rt.cross hammer to ceribelum.
Right hand grabs back of hair. Right side blade kick to knee placing opponent on the floor. Left spinning hook kick to face. Only release the hair during the kick when you can no longer hold and kick.

    The version Villari teaches on his video is more SKish as the hook kick is done with the right leg instead of the left. SK seems to always be right hand/leg dominant in it's techniques.

   This technique in my humble opinion has all the earmarks of an overhead club technique except one. The first two strikes are to render the weapon arm useless. the 3rd strike is to knock the person unconcious. 4th strike either immobilizes the opponent by not allowing them to run or puts them into a exposed position. 5th strike takedown with potential face damage. 
The only change needed is the starting footwork - Left foot steps toward 11:00 from a horse stance with 6 block & leopard paw to armpit.


----------



## Hand Sword

Right foot side steps, getting out og the attacks path, # 2 open knife hand strike (block for some) to the arm, grab. Right leopard paw to the armpit/shoulder region. Step under the arm with the right foot toward 11 o'clock, spin counter clockwise with left back elbow to gut (still holding arm) on the way thorugh, extending arm. Break with a right hammerfist, then shoot a reverse hammer to the base of the skull. Left stomp behind the knee. Right spinning hook kick to the back of the head.


----------



## Hand Sword

SK101 said:


> The version Villari teaches on his video is more SKish as the hook kick is done with the right leg instead of the left. SK seems to always be right hand/leg dominant in it's techniques.


 
 That's because where you end up, your left is holding their arm, extending it, which is "pulling backwards. Your left foot is to the rear, putting power into the stomp. and keeping your balance, while doing it. Using your right to do it, while it's in front, would off balance you, especially if they move. The kick with the right (now behind) keeps the flow going. 

The right hand dominance is because most people are right handed. If attacked, that's most likely. For defense, that's most likely your coordinated side. Go with your best for real. Anyway, practice on both sides is stressed.


----------



## marlon

#21
lt leg steps with a lt open hand block and leopard paw strike to the brachial nerve plexus (the rt leg must drag to angle off so that the hips are aligned towards 10:30 the leopard paw strike covers your head. the drag of the leg and shift of the hips creates a disbalance in the attacker like 26).  Lt hand controls the attacking arm as you step through towards 10:30 with the rt leg and turn ccw you need good torque / circular pull on the arm. rt hammer to the elbow from a horse stance the a rt hammer to the cerebellum (movement whittling (sp?) with a knife a piece of wood) while in a forward stance from shifting the weight not stepping. Lt stomp to the back of the knee step off the knee and a rt spinning hook kcik  or axe kick to the head

marlon


----------



## Gufbal1982

marlon said:


> #21
> lt leg steps with a lt open hand block and leopard paw strike to the brachial nerve plexus (the rt leg must drag to angle off so that the hips are aligned towards 10:30 the leopard paw strike covers your head. the drag of the leg and shift of the hips creates a disbalance in the attacker like 26).  Lt hand controls the attacking arm as you step through towards 10:30 with the rt leg and turn ccw you need good torque / circular pull on the arm. rt hammer to the elbow from a horse stance the a rt hammer to the cerebellum (movement whittling (sp?) with a knife a piece of wood) while in a forward stance from shifting the weight not stepping. Lt stomp to the back of the knee step off the knee and a rt spinning hook kcik  or axe kick to the head
> 
> marlon



I have this with a downward elbow to the elbow instead of a hammer. USSD teaches the end with a right side kick to the knee and end with a left spinning hook kick.


----------



## SK101

DM(Combo) #22 - Pull back into left cat stance w/#5 Knife hand block.  Step left foot toward 10:30 landing into 1/2 moon stance while left hand performs snow leopard strike to throat(glancing forearm). Left hand pushes oponent over left leg landing directly behind you. Right glancing heel to ribs, right stomping ball kick to solar plexus, rotate cw 180 degrees facing 9:00, Dropping knee to solar plexus, water bucket strike to face and groin. Cross over cross out toward 9:00.


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> DM(Combo) #22 - Pull back into left cat stance w/#5 Knife hand block. Step left foot toward 10:30 landing into 1/2 moon stance while left hand performs snow leopard strike to throat(glancing forearm). Left hand pushes oponent over left leg landing directly behind you. Right glancing heel to ribs, right stomping ball kick to solar plexus, rotate cw 180 degrees facing 9:00, Dropping knee to solar plexus, water bucket strike to face and groin. Cross over cross out toward 9:00.


 
USSD 22:  Step behind the opponent with the left foot while doing an open handed 5 block and spear hand poke to the neck (caratid artery) with the left hand while grabbing a hold of the wrist with the right hand.  Bring the left arm across the throat .  There are 2 ways to do the takedown.  One is to sweep with the left leg while pushing them backwards with the left arm.  The other is to do a hip displacement with the left leg...it's hard to explain.  Either way, let go with the right immediately.  Right heel kick to the ribs, right ball stomp to the solar plexus, turn towards the right, knee with the left to the solar, palm to the face and groin and jump off.  

FV 22:  Openhanded 5 block, 6 block, spear hand to the throat with the right, crosshand shuto with the left.  Sweep with the left and follow thru to do an axe kick to the ribs of the downed opponent.

For 23, are we going to do the a,b and c version?


----------



## fnorfurfoot

Our 22 uses more of an overhead hand helping hand block.
The right hand does an open handed number 5 block followed by an open handed number 6 block with the left.  
The left hand controls the attacker's hand to the left while the right hand delivers a knife hand strike to the collar bone
The left hand does a cross knife to the throat while the left leg sweeps the attacker's left foot dropping him to backwards to the ground
Right cross-over axe kick to the solar plexus followed by a side blade kick to the throat.  (You stay in contact with the guy the whole time.  Your foot slides from the axe kick up his chest into his throat while you pivot your left foot for the side kick)


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## Gufbal1982

fnorfurfoot said:


> Our 22 uses more of an overhead hand helping hand block.
> The right hand does an open handed number 5 block followed by an open handed number 6 block with the left.
> The left hand controls the attacker's hand to the left while the right hand delivers a knife hand strike to the collar bone
> The left hand does a cross knife to the throat while the left leg sweeps the attacker's left foot dropping him to backwards to the ground
> Right cross-over axe kick to the solar plexus followed by a side blade kick to the throat. (You stay in contact with the guy the whole time. Your foot slides from the axe kick up his chest into his throat while you pivot your left foot for the side kick)


 
Sounds interesting...I'll have to try it out!


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## SK101

Gufbal1982 said:


> USSD 22:
> 
> For 23, are we going to do the a,b and c version?


 
A,B,C sounds good to me.


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## fnorfurfoot

23A?
Draw back into a cat stance (left leg forward) + Both hands trap and pull attacker to the right
Left foot lunges forward into a half-moon stance + left cross knife to throat + right ridgehand strike to stomach or solar plexus
Left palm heel to face + left knee buckling attacker's right knee

23B?
Draw back into a cat stance (left leg forward) + Both hands trap and pull attacker to the right
Left foot lunges forward into a half-moon stance + Left palm heel to face + Right palm heel to ribs
Left hand hooks jaw + right hand controls attacker's right shoulder 
Left hand pulls to the left and right hand pulls shoulder to the right wrenching the attacker's neck.


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## RevIV

SK101 said:


> DM(Combination) 21 - Right foot steps back w/#2 knifehand block & grab. Step right foot toward opponents right arm with leopard paw to armpit as you step under opponment's arm. Step left foot behind opponent. Left downward elbow meets oppponent's rising arm. Rt.cross hammer to ceribelum.
> Right hand grabs back of hair. Right side blade kick to knee placing opponent on the floor. Left spinning hook kick to face. Only release the hair during the kick when you can no longer hold and kick.
> 
> The version Villari teaches on his video is more SKish as the hook kick is done with the right leg instead of the left. SK seems to always be right hand/leg dominant in it's techniques.
> 
> This technique in my humble opinion has all the earmarks of an overhead club technique except one. The first two strikes are to render the weapon arm useless. the 3rd strike is to knock the person unconcious. 4th strike either immobilizes the opponent by not allowing them to run or puts them into a exposed position. 5th strike takedown with potential face damage.
> The only change needed is the starting footwork - Left foot steps toward 11:00 from a horse stance with 6 block & leopard paw to armpit.


 
We do not step back just shift a little to the RT.  after we go under arm with Brachial nerve strike and we pull the arm with us we shoot an elbow to the ribs on the step through. (LT elbow holding arm)  same strike down on Tricep then backfist to head. grab collar and do a LT chinese heal kick to back of knee pulling apponent back at same time w/ RT, then rt spinning hook kick which is a continueing flow from the chinse heal to a twist. Side note the kick to the back of the head most likely cannot be blocked.  Not saying that if you do the entire technique perfect that they would block the left kick, but the possibility is there with the hands in front.  I love the variations i am picking up from this thread.
In Peace
Jesse


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## marlon

Gufbal1982 said:


> USSD 22: Step behind the opponent with the left foot while doing an open handed 5 block and spear hand poke to the neck (caratid artery) with the left hand while grabbing a hold of the wrist with the right hand. Bring the left arm across the throat . There are 2 ways to do the takedown. One is to sweep with the left leg while pushing them backwards with the left arm. The other is to do a hip displacement with the left leg...it's hard to explain. Either way, let go with the right immediately. Right heel kick to the ribs, right ball stomp to the solar plexus, turn towards the right, knee with the left to the solar, palm to the face and groin and jump off.
> 
> FV 22: Openhanded 5 block, 6 block, spear hand to the throat with the right, crosshand shuto with the left. Sweep with the left and follow thru to do an axe kick to the ribs of the downed opponent.
> 
> For 23, are we going to do the a,b and c version?


 

my 22 is your FV version but with a stomp on the chest to finish.  The emphasis is to unbalance the person to the rear with the two rising motions accompanied with a strong forward stance to 11:00.  The takedown is accomplished more with the hip than a sweep (you need to be very close in...the move works well from a grabbing  / standing clinch situation as well).  It should not stop and start *** continuous motion is necessary for the unbalancing to be effective and useful

Respectfully,
marlon


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## marlon

i let go of the a b c variations and just do Prof. I's version which was my 23a with an alternate ending.  the essential move from 23b i have in a kempo / animal from Shihan
23 
right leg steps back into a left cats stance (long step) with a Buhdda swallow (right hand palm up recieving left dropping knife hitting lung 6 and sliding/ pulling to the wrist) twist hips cw bracing left forearm in the attcking arm (careful easy elbow dislocation here...speaking from experiance it takes no power to do)step in to 11:00 with the left leg into a forward stance with a left reverse knife to the ribs (the return motion of the hips /waist giving power as well as the sinking of the center with the change of stance) right knife hand to the plexus, then simultaneaous left tiger mouth the the occiput and right tiger mouth to the throat (let the right thumb ride up to penetrate underneath the tmj) tilt the head back and step behind uke for a throw using uke's head of course.  Kempo is sooo nice

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> We do not step back just shift a little to the RT. after we go under arm with Brachial nerve strike and we pull the arm with us we shoot an elbow to the ribs on the step through. (LT elbow holding arm) same strike down on Tricep then backfist to head. grab collar and do a LT chinese heal kick to back of knee pulling apponent back at same time w/ RT, then rt spinning hook kick which is a continueing flow from the chinse heal to a twist. Side note the kick to the back of the head most likely cannot be blocked. Not saying that if you do the entire technique perfect that they would block the left kick, but the possibility is there with the hands in front. I love the variations i am picking up from this thread.
> In Peace
> Jesse


 

Your right Jesse this thread is great!!

Marlon


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## kosho

comb 23

As the punch comes in I shift my hips and twist my weight to the right as I blend in a # 4 open hand block. once the punch is just past my movement i twist my body back towards the attackers and deliver a left cross hand shuto strike to the attackers throat and a right palm heal strike to the attackers mid section ( same time) I then take my left hand and check the attackers rotaion and shift his shoulders to control his hips and lower body for a few seconds. at that time i then deliver a right back 2 knuckle punch to the attackers face / temple area. I then follow that up with a right side blade kick to the attackers knee. once the attackers starts to fall, I then take my right hand and push on his left side of his colar bone and turn my body to the left. this motion will take the attacker to the ground. I then cross and cover.
 kosho


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## 14 Kempo

#23 - As punch comes in, step back slightly with right foot into cat stance as right shoulder turns back. Trap punch using right upward palm and left downward shuto to the wrist on rightside of body, assist attacker in moving inward, brings him off balance. Step in with left, strike with left crosshand shuto to neck/throat, right shuto to floating rib. Left foot steps back, left hand guards right ribs, right backfist to temple.

I'm not too good at writing these things, hope you get the picture!


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## SK101

DM(Combo)23 is the only combo I am aware of that has a strike while moving away. A chinese master told us once that all Shaolin Techniques end with a strike while moving away to catch the person if they come forward. Is anyone aware of any other DMs that also do this. You could interpret DM 9 this way if you land in a twist stance instead of foot to foot or pinetree.


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## 14 Kempo

#35 could be considered as a strike while moving away, we deliver a side thrust kick into the ribs/solar plexus as a final strike. Maybe, just maybe #5, #7, #12 and #18 could be considered as a strike moving away ... just a thought. Depends on how you look at the technique.


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## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> #35 could be considered as a strike while moving away, we deliver a side thrust kick into the ribs/solar plexus as a final strike. Maybe, just maybe #5, #7, #12 and #18 could be considered as a strike moving away ... just a thought. Depends on how you look at the technique.


 
Good Point


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## marlon

a lot of variation on this one


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## SK101

marlon said:


> a lot of variation on this one


 
Can you imagine what will happen when we go to the 40+s?


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## Gufbal1982

I disagree with that notion entirely.  You are not stepping away, you are still keeping the same distance.  If you do the technique correctly, your shoulder that is in striking distance gains strength and doesn't lose distance.  You cannot truely strike effectively if you are moving backwards for 35.  If there was truely shaolin in the art then you can understand the concept being presented at hand.  You can see what I am saying if you had forms such as tong bei, lohan chuan, or any true shaolin form for that matter.


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## SK101

Gufbal1982 said:


> I disagree with that notion entirely. You are not stepping away, you are still keeping the same distance. If you do the technique correctly, your shoulder that is in striking distance gains strength and doesn't lose distance. You cannot truely strike effectively if you are moving backwards for 35. If there was truely shaolin in the art then you can understand the concept being presented at hand. You can see what I am saying if you had forms such as tong bei, lohan chuan, or any true shaolin form for that matter.


 
   Any technique that does a strike while moving away has the issue of your energy moving away from the strike. The concept is to throw a strike out there in case the opponent charges. Your already leaving your just  making sure it's harder for them to follow. If you don't use this concept or don't like the concept that's fine. Professor Ingargiola won a full contact USKBA fight with this theory. His opponent pressed him from one corner to the other. When he reached the opposite corner the opponent was unconsious as he was hitting the opponent while retreating. It is not ideal for maximam damage, but if your retreating you might as well retreat with a strike. Just my humble 2 cents.


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## marlon

Gufbal1982 said:


> I disagree with that notion entirely. You are not stepping away, you are still keeping the same distance. If you do the technique correctly, your shoulder that is in striking distance gains strength and doesn't lose distance. You cannot truely strike effectively if you are moving backwards for 35. If there was truely shaolin in the art then you can understand the concept being presented at hand. You can see what I am saying if you had forms such as tong bei, lohan chuan, or any true shaolin form for that matter.


 

power for striking comes from rooting proper body alignment and precision.  whether you are moving forwards backwards or sideways will not change this.  Think of 2 kata, statue of the crane, 5 pinan...neglis....if one could not strike effectively while moving backwards many things would not work.  I understand your position and skk does teach moving forward a lot in response to an attack but there is this side also.

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## Gufbal1982

marlon said:


> power for striking comes from rooting proper body alignment and precision. whether you are moving forwards backwards or sideways will not change this. Think of 2 kata, statue of the crane, 5 pinan...neglis....if one could not strike effectively while moving backwards many things would not work. I understand your position and skk does teach moving forward a lot in response to an attack but there is this side also.
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
I'm personally talking about the appearance of moving backwards, without moving backwards.  The shaolin forms have a lot of this movement...it's called folding and unfolding the body.  It's really interesting.  You guys should check it out.  Moving the body backwards has nothing to do with stepping like it is being referred to in reference to combinations 23 and 35.


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> Any technique that does a strike while moving away has the issue of your energy moving away from the strike. The concept is to throw a strike out there in case the opponent charges. Your already leaving your just making sure it's harder for them to follow. If you don't use this concept or don't like the concept that's fine. Professor Ingargiola won a full contact USKBA fight with this theory. His opponent pressed him from one corner to the other. When he reached the opposite corner the opponent was unconsious as he was hitting the opponent while retreating. It is not ideal for maximam damage, but if your retreating you might as well retreat with a strike. Just my humble 2 cents.


 
What you are talking about is completely different than what I am talking about.  You're talking about following up.  I'm not saying to not throw the strike.  I'm saying that your energy isn't moving away.  I'm saying that your energy is staying the same because 1. your center of gravity is still in the same spot because 2. you have not really stepped away.  You have "v" stepped.  I'm talking about the step and you are thinking about the strike.


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## SK101

marlon said:


> power for striking comes from rooting proper body alignment and precision.  whether you are moving forwards backwards or sideways will not change this.  Think of 2 kata, statue of the crane, 5 pinan...neglis....if one could not strike effectively while moving backwards many things would not work.  I understand your position and skk does teach moving forward a lot in response to an attack but there is this side also.
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon



Hello Marlon,

Were there any particular parts of  K2, or P5 where you see yourself striking while moving away? I haven't thought of either of those forms as having that concept. Not that they don't. I am always curious to hear other interpretations. It often leads me to things I would never have thought of.


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## Hand Sword

I Don't know where everyone is getting their stuff. There are some great variations going on! However, there is something that is bothering me about what is being said lately. There is no moving away and striking in the forms or techniques. Bottom line is if you strike or kick, while moving away--no power. Shifting or "folding" as has been discussed is a whole nother thing. These principles were practiced and emphasised during my experiences with the system back in the day.


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## 14 Kempo

Gufbal1982 said:


> What you are talking about is completely different than what I am talking about. You're talking about following up. I'm not saying to not throw the strike. I'm saying that your energy isn't moving away. I'm saying that your energy is staying the same because 1. your center of gravity is still in the same spot because 2. you have not really stepped away. You have "v" stepped. I'm talking about the step and you are thinking about the strike.


 
I agree, the movement away is on the 'rechamber' or 'recoil' of the kick or strike. As mentioned previously, it is in how you look at the technique. I can see where someone might think the movement is away on the finishing strikes of the aforementioned combos/dms. But as quoted above, the energy is the same ... still with the strike.


----------



## marlon

Hand Sword said:


> I Don't know where everyone is getting their stuff. There are some great variations going on! However, there is something that is bothering me about what is being said lately. There is no moving away and striking in the forms or techniques. Bottom line is if you strike or kick, while moving away--no power. Shifting or "folding" as has been discussed is a whole nother thing. These principles were practiced and emphasised during my experiences with the system back in the day.


 
actually if you really want to be specific your feet are rooted when you strike whether your initial motion was forwards or backwards.  What do you call it if you step back with your left leg and throw a rt roundhouse kick?  2 kata starts with stepping back a downward hand motion usually called a dropping palm block then a rising hand motion usually called a crane or chicken wrist (a chicken in the system...lol) strike (it compliments well the beginning of 1 kata).  after the side thrust kick there is an inverted ridge hand block as you step back that is followed by a spear hand poke.in 5 pinan after the elbow strike and re inforced  block (well not really a block ) there is a cat stance with a strike to the back that can be interpreted as moving away. at the end with the reverse bow stance there is one hand above the head the body weight has shifted in the direction away from the target and what is the other hand doing? at the beginning of first nenglis after the first series of kicks you begin to step back with blocks strikes grabs and breaks...the end of second nenglis your are kick each time you step back...  the elbow break in swift tigers can be seen as a movement away because of the stance and weight shift...in five dragons and you are on the ground moving away you throw a side thrust kick.  in each instance when the strike comes in to contact with the target you are technically not moving but this is what i mean.  i have been tagged many times by Yanik in sparring because he would move back and i would follow and run into a side thrust kick.  So let me know what you call this, but i can easily see it as striking while retreating.  BTW i do not consider the kick in 35 or 5 to be moving back in any sense of the idea...if done properly the other strikes should move the person away from you if you do not grab them and then you might even have to shuffle in...it is a problem when we practice without contact that some techniques can be seen ...differently.The dropping knife hand to the arm as you move back into a cat stance in 23 is an example of limb destruction . If you cannot fight while moving backwards give it a try..it is an excellent tactic to draw an opponent in or feign weakness where there is none.

Respectfully,
marlon


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## DavidCC

One of the prinicples I was taught is, to increase range, move forward, to decrease range move back:

You move forward, your opponent moves back, you move back (or stop moving forward) and let him increase the range.

You move back, he moves forward, you move forward (or stop moving back) and let him decrease the range.

Is this sortof what they mean in Kosho-ryu when they say "move twice"?


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## Hand Sword

marlon said:


> actually if you really want to be specific your feet are rooted when you strike whether your initial motion was forwards or backwards. What do you call it if you step back with your left leg and throw a rt roundhouse kick? 2 kata starts with stepping back a downward hand motion usually called a dropping palm block then a rising hand motion usually called a crane or chicken wrist (a chicken in the system...lol) strike (it compliments well the beginning of 1 kata). after the side thrust kick there is an inverted ridge hand block as you step back that is followed by a spear hand poke.in 5 pinan after the elbow strike and re inforced block (well not really a block ) there is a cat stance with a strike to the back that can be interpreted as moving away. at the end with the reverse bow stance there is one hand above the head the body weight has shifted in the direction away from the target and what is the other hand doing? at the beginning of first nenglis after the first series of kicks you begin to step back with blocks strikes grabs and breaks...the end of second nenglis your are kick each time you step back... the elbow break in swift tigers can be seen as a movement away because of the stance and weight shift...in five dragons and you are on the ground moving away you throw a side thrust kick. in each instance when the strike comes in to contact with the target you are technically not moving but this is what i mean. i have been tagged many times by Yanik in sparring because he would move back and i would follow and run into a side thrust kick. So let me know what you call this, but i can easily see it as striking while retreating. BTW i do not consider the kick in 35 or 5 to be moving back in any sense of the idea...if done properly the other strikes should move the person away from you if you do not grab them and then you might even have to shuffle in...it is a problem when we practice without contact that some techniques can be seen ...differently.The dropping knife hand to the arm as you move back into a cat stance in 23 is an example of limb destruction . If you cannot fight while moving backwards give it a try..it is an excellent tactic to draw an opponent in or feign weakness where there is none.
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 

Stepping back with the left and throwing a right roundhouse kick...I would call it a weak kick, and never try it. If they are coming and you try this, expect to end up on your backside. As for the 2 kata and 5 pinion analogies, you're not moving away. You've settled in your stances when you block then strike. You momentum has come to a stop, and you deliver power in your strikes. Or, the settling of the bottom half, empowers the top half. It's a timing thing, basically. Feel the power difference of rising Chicken wristing with the left, while dropping back with the right leg, as opposed to shuffling back and chickenwristing. Closer examining of your examples will show that you're shifting parts of you, and not "moving away" per say. *You yield, never retreat*. That will draw them in or feign them in.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Hand Sword said:


> Stepping back with the left and throwing a right roundhouse kick...I would call it a weak kick, and never try it. If they are coming and you try this, expect to end up on your backside. As for the 2 kata and 5 pinion analogies, you're not moving away. You've settled in your stances when you block then strike. You momentum has come to a stop, and you deliver power in your strikes. Or, the settling of the bottom half, empowers the top half. It's a timing thing, basically. Feel the power difference of rising Chicken wristing with the left, while dropping back with the right leg, as opposed to shuffling back and chickenwristing. Closer examining of your examples will show that you're shifting parts of you, and not "moving away" per say. *You yield, never retreat*. That will draw them in or feign them in.


 
That's something my instructor from FV called a bamboo principle.


----------



## Gufbal1982

fnorfurfoot said:


> 23A?
> Draw back into a cat stance (left leg forward) + Both hands trap and pull attacker to the right
> Left foot lunges forward into a half-moon stance + left cross knife to throat + right ridgehand strike to stomach or solar plexus
> Left palm heel to face + left knee buckling attacker's right knee
> 
> 23B?
> Draw back into a cat stance (left leg forward) + Both hands trap and pull attacker to the right
> Left foot lunges forward into a half-moon stance + Left palm heel to face + Right palm heel to ribs
> Left hand hooks jaw + right hand controls attacker's right shoulder
> Left hand pulls to the left and right hand pulls shoulder to the right wrenching the attacker's neck.


 
FV still has the letters with some combinations, while USSD doesn't have those.  

23A

Draw in a left cat.
Trap the arm (left hand on top, right on bottom) and pull the attacker in.
Step out into a left half moon stance, left cross hand shuto to the throat and right hand shuto to the ribs.

23B.

Draw in a left cat.
Trap the arm like in 23A.  
Step inside their stance while you throw the arm out towards the left. 
Left palm to the face, right palm to the groin.
Rake up with the right hand towards the face.
Right crab strike to the throat and draw in a cat.

23C.

Draw in a left cat.
Trap arm like in 23A and B
Pull the opponent to the right as you step in with a palm strike with the right to the ribs.  
Upward palm to the jaw with the right.
Step behind with the right leg (so you are cheek to cheek so to speak) and grab their left shoulder.
Hip throw.
Left Tigers Claw rake to the face as you throw.


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## RevIV

Marlon,
Every motion that you just wrote about did not step back and attack, it stepped back, blocked and attacked.
Jesse


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## SK101

The simpelest analogy for the principle I am exploring is to take any cross step away from your opponent and add a back fist toward your opponent while performing the cross step. Not start too cross step then reverse direction and attack. That would be yield and attack in my humble opinion.

    Does it have maximum energy? No. Will it catch an opponent trying to follow you? Maybe. It definately will make it harder for the opponent to travel through that space and follow you.


----------



## SK101

DM #24 -

   X block low, X strike thraot, twin honshu strikes or inward tiger rakes, then twin eagle thumbs to eyes(Palms turned inward toward each other). 

   I always wondered why some masters did their katas with the salutation at chest level. Someone charges maybe for a bearhug and you deliver a scissor strike to the throat and maybe finish with the rest of 24.

    The first strike brings them down then the next 3 push toward a bent back position. Hmmmmm.

This always looked like an Eagle technique to me as far as the strikes.


----------



## Hand Sword

SK101 said:


> The simpelest analogy for the principle I am exploring is to take any cross step away from your opponent and add a back fist toward your opponent while performing the cross step. Not start too cross step then reverse direction and attack. That would be yield and attack in my humble opinion.
> 
> Does it have maximum energy? No. Will it catch an opponent trying to follow you? Maybe. It definately will make it harder for the opponent to travel through that space and follow you.


 
It will pop if you execute it at the same time as your left foot steps out of the cross step, and lands. Use the chamber of it, across the body, to help you into the cross stance, step out with the left and fire. Try it, you should feel the difference.


----------



## Hand Sword

SK101 said:


> DM #24 -
> 
> X block low, X strike thraot, twin honshu strikes or inward tiger rakes, then twin eagle thumbs to eyes(Palms turned inward toward each other).
> 
> I always wondered why some masters did their katas with the salutation at chest level. Someone charges maybe for a bearhug and you deliver a scissor strike to the throat and maybe finish with the rest of 24.
> 
> The first strike brings them down then the next 3 push toward a bent back position. Hmmmmm.
> 
> This always looked like an Eagle technique to me as far as the strikes.


 

Review the combo's use in 5 kata.


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> Marlon,
> Every motion that you just wrote about did not step back and attack, it stepped back, blocked and attacked.
> Jesse


 

Some of then did that Jesse but others no...i think you do not have the nenglis forms it is very clear there.  and if you step out of the bo a little the beginning of 2 kata there does not need to be a block...someone rushes you you step back for better rooting and rising crane to there head or your being held you step back sink your weight unbalancing then and strike.  We tend to teach forms with the i dea of this move is this and then stop exploring.  If you never look at combo three a bit more than you were first taught deeply you might miss a terrific arm lever /break....i guess i just look at some things differently...not better or worse just different.  this is why i like this forum so others can help me 'see' a little more.  thanks for everyone's opnness to sharing and looking at new ideas

  Back to what you said Jesse about what i  wrote, i started by saying that technically you are not moving back when you strike or forwards for that matter you must root for an effective strike...even a supposedly weak kick if properly rooted delivers what some may find surprising power.  Any way if you want to call it yeilding fine by me i am more interested in the concept rather than arguing semanitcs.  However, it is still a valuealbe skill to be able to fight even when you are moving backwards.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

#24
i have the right leg settles back into a left cat stance dropping the weight and double downward scissor strike to the forearm, enter in with the left leg to uke's center into a forward stance (taking the center) with a double upward scissor strikes to the neck. shuffle forward with double outward tiger claws to the face, shuffle forwads with double poison thumbs to the eyes

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

Hand Sword said:


> Stepping back with the left and throwing a right roundhouse kick...I would call it a weak kick, and never try it. If they are coming and you try this, expect to end up on your backside. As for the 2 kata and 5 pinion analogies, you're not moving away. You've settled in your stances when you block then strike. You momentum has come to a stop, and you deliver power in your strikes. Or, the settling of the bottom half, empowers the top half. It's a timing thing, basically. Feel the power difference of rising Chicken wristing with the left, while dropping back with the right leg, as opposed to shuffling back and chickenwristing. Closer examining of your examples will show that you're shifting parts of you, and not "moving away" per say. *You yield, never retreat*. That will draw them in or feign them in.


 
we differ about the kick (i have tried it and like everything else there are appropriate times for such a response and inappropriate times) and we seem to agree on the rest.  I read your post and re read the beginning of mine and we seem to be saying the same thing except for i said moving away and you have corrected this term with yield.  the never retreat idea seems very tiger to me and skk is a 5 animal system. there are appropriate times to retreat that will put you in a superior position...but now i am bringing up a discussion on the book of five rings and the like that i guess do not really belong here.

Respectfully,
marlon


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## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> The never retreat idea seems very tiger to me and skk is a 5 animal system. there are appropriate times to retreat that will put you in a superior position


 
In my training, you are correct, "the never retreat" idea would be very Tiger. However, you mention the 5 animals and I would like to point out that the next line, "there are appropriate times to retreat that will put you in a superior position" relates to another of the 5 animals, Leopard.

If one studiies how the Leopard hunts, it stalks, from downwind. If he wind shifts, it will retreat and reposition. There you have it. How does this relate? If you find yourself in an inferior position, step back, reposition, regain the 'superior' position.


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## fnorfurfoot

marlon said:


> #24
> i have the right leg settles back into a left cat stance dropping the weight and double downward scissor strike to the forearm, enter in with the left leg to uke's center into a forward stance (taking the center) with a double upward scissor strikes to the neck. shuffle forward with double outward tiger claws to the face, shuffle forwads with double poison thumbs to the eyes
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


Your strikes are the same as mine.  When we block, we step back with the right foot and then push-drag forward as needed with the strikes.


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## fnorfurfoot

Now that I've read yours again, I guess everything is the same accept that we don't use a cat stance, we teach it as a half-moon stance.  But I can see how the cat would prepare you for the first shuffle forward.


----------



## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> #24
> i have the right leg settles back into a left cat stance dropping the weight and double downward scissor strike to the forearm, enter in with the left leg to uke's center into a forward stance (taking the center) with a double upward scissor strikes to the neck. shuffle forward with double outward tiger claws to the face, shuffle forwads with double poison thumbs to the eyes
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
At USSD, or at least at my dojo, our initial movement on #24 is inward with the left foot using a downward crosshand block. Scissor strike to the throat. Double outward tiger rakes. Finish with poison thumbs to the eyes or orbits. Seems the only difference is the initial movement which then eliminates the shuffle forward towards the end of the technique.


----------



## marlon

14 Kempo said:


> In my training, you are correct, "the never retreat" idea would be very Tiger. However, you mention the 5 animals and I would like to point out that the next line, "there are appropriate times to retreat that will put you in a superior position" relates to another of the 5 animals, Leopard.
> 
> If one studiies how the Leopard hunts, it stalks, from downwind. If he wind shifts, it will retreat and reposition. There you have it. How does this relate? If you find yourself in an inferior position, step back, reposition, regain the 'superior' position.


 

sound interesting the crane also retreats, snakes and dragons move in ways that are yielding and deceptive.  This is why i like the 5 animal system.  Different ways to respond to different attacks, attackers and situations.

marlon


----------



## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> If one studiies how the Leopard hunts, it stalks, from downwind. If he wind shifts, it will retreat and reposition. There you have it. How does this relate? If you find yourself in an inferior position, step back, reposition, regain the 'superior' position.


 
I hope I don't get us off message here, but I have to be a little sarcastic. If my opponent can smell me I should use a different direction? 

I completly agree with the Leopard analogy. A leopard is said to strike then leave then strike and leave again. The snake uses the recoil as it's retreat/reposition. I also would see this with the crane in it's yield & attack theory. It obviously doesn't always move forward, but to be fair the comment made by someone I beleive was reposition rather than retreat and to copy someone else's post we might be talking about the same thing, but have different terms. To me and this is just me, repositioning while moving backward is reatreating. Repositioning is something military's do to avoid calling it retreating. Or rather tactical repositioning. Going home is tactical redeployment. 

To me 3 out of the 5 animals use retreating or tactical reposition in order to gain superior position. 

This last comment is only meant in a little bit of fun, but when the dragon flys away is that retreating or acquiring superior position?


----------



## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> At USSD, or at least at my dojo, our initial movement on #24 is inward with the left foot using a downward crosshand block. Scissor strike to the throat. Double outward tiger rakes. Finish with poison thumbs to the eyes or orbits. Seems the only difference is the initial movement which then eliminates the shuffle forward towards the end of the technique.


 
I've seen this one both ways. When we step straight in we need to focus the speed from the block to the throat attack to keep the left hand from firing or stopping it's energy if it has fired already. On both I personally like to hide in front of the opponents right shoulder after the block to avoid the left, but I was never told to do that as far as I know it's just a personnal thing.

In general does anyone know of any advantage to using a scissor block with palms up versus down? 

How about advantage between poison thumbs, iron thumbs, eagle thumbs, etc. 

I have seen some Martial artists place the poison thumb in line with the leopard paw knuckles while others place the thumb between the front punch and leopard paw knuckles. Anyone been given any explanations as to times when one is superior to the other?


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> I've seen this one both ways. When we step straight in we need to focus the speed from the block to the throat attack to keep the left hand from firing or stopping it's energy if it has fired already. On both I personally like to hide in front of the opponents right shoulder after the block to avoid the left, but I was never told to do that as far as I know it's just a personnal thing.
> 
> In general does anyone know of any advantage to using a scissor block with palms up versus down?
> 
> How about advantage between poison thumbs, iron thumbs, eagle thumbs, etc.
> 
> I have seen some Martial artists place the poison thumb in line with the leopard paw knuckles while others place the thumb between the front punch and leopard paw knuckles. Anyone been given any explanations as to times when one is superior to the other?


 

the palms down gives a better strike inwards for limb destruction while the palms up to me is more of a falling leaf block softer but drops the limb more. imho

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> I've seen this one both ways. When we step straight in we need to focus the speed from the block to the throat attack to keep the left hand from firing or stopping it's energy if it has fired already. On both I personally like to hide in front of the opponents right shoulder after the block to avoid the left, but I was never told to do that as far as I know it's just a personnal thing.
> 
> In general does anyone know of any advantage to using a scissor block with palms up versus down?
> 
> How about advantage between poison thumbs, iron thumbs, eagle thumbs, etc.
> 
> I have seen some Martial artists place the poison thumb in line with the leopard paw knuckles while others place the thumb between the front punch and leopard paw knuckles. Anyone been given any explanations as to times when one is superior to the other?


 
Agreed, it needs to be a speed move from block to scissor strike.


----------



## Hand Sword

marlon said:


> we differ about the kick (i have tried it and like everything else there are appropriate times for such a response and inappropriate times) and we seem to agree on the rest. I read your post and re read the beginning of mine and we seem to be saying the same thing except for i said moving away and you have corrected this term with yield. the never retreat idea seems very tiger to me and skk is a 5 animal system. there are appropriate times to retreat that will put you in a superior position...but now i am bringing up a discussion on the book of five rings and the like that i guess do not really belong here.
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
Marlon, I don't know about what real experience you have ( I don't care about your rank), but, the kick (right round) after stepping back with the left, does nothing but put all of your weight (which is moving backwards) on your left foot. Since you are moving backwards, your momentum is too. The kick ends up being more of a flick. There's no power in it. Can't be, you have to put your body into your strikes, not away from them. This move I have seen countless times in Point fighting. You can do what you like sir. But, if for real, I would suggest moving into your strikes, or, if you're intent on this move, maybe, sticking the kick into the oncoming knee of the puncher, meeting the action, per say, is your best option. 

As for never retreating being tiger, it could be if we're discussing the animals and the qualities. I didn't believe that we were. As I have tried to point out, once engaged, you are not retreating, but, are instead shifting yourself, leaving you in positions to hit, and counter. Retreating would take your attacker out of position to hit, but, You too. Then again this just might be an argument of semantics. Being an old schooler, I have heard this point hammered many times, by Mr. Villari, and others. Retreating is more apart of jockeying for positions pre-engagement, Shuffling, circling, etc..


----------



## marlon

perhaps you are right. i have real life experience, yes the kick is best placed at the knee or ribs.  Where is your center / belt knot pointing when you land this kick  (btw it was just an example i could have said side thrust) mine is at a 45 degree angle downward.  as you mentioned to strike we generall stop and root. no differnce in what i am talking about.  but perhaps you are right ansd  i am wrong.  thanks for your thoughts i will take them in to consideration.  I really do not want to clutter this thread anymore with this stuff.

forever a student

Respectfully,
marlon


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## Jdokan

Here's my take on#1:   (I practice each of mine again a stepping in r/foot overhand r/hand punch: then again against a L/foot forward lunging r/hand straight punch...Forces my to use the same technique using a modified block...) Against the overhand strike: r/hand cross palm block with the right hand striking the faceinto the eye socket/nose with an inverted palm, the hand continues to move outside the body encircling his right with a "snaking wrap", the right hand strikes across the the face hitting the same general area again, the same hand comes back and strikes to his r/side of face with a "chicken wrist or Ox Jaw" strike, Come back into the throat with a tiger mouth strike bending himover backwards...step behind him with your r/leg (horse stance) FORCE HIM TO THE GROUND...tear out the throat, front 2 knuckle punch face sword hand to the throat...step back into a guard stance 90 degrees from opponents head.  If the attack is straight in I change the first strike to a spear poke to the throat...(block accordingly) finish as usual...


----------



## Jdokan

RevIV said:


> The moves for me are the same but the timing and attack are different. the first parry is for a RT front kick. as you step back in, LT hand blocks RT hook and wraps arm while striking face at same time with palm. The bent wrist then comes back to side right away and blocks a left hook, instead striking the face. next take down and finish right punch chest, right knife hand neck.
> Jesse.


I end the same way..my beginning is different:
Left sword block & right hand back punch to the eye crown/jaw....


----------



## SK101

DM #25

Start with Palm on top of ridge hand guard. Step right leg back or shift weight to right leg if starting form half moon followed by left downward palm block. Right spear to throat area then left cross hand shuto to throat. Left hand grabs lapel. Rt. ccw palm then cw palm. Left palm to jaw then right palm to jaw while the muscle is stretched. 

This DM uses one of the same principles as Kata 2. Turning the neck tenses the Sterno Mastoid muscle. On DM 25 you use this to make the person move more on the last palm. On Kata 2 you use it to make the right shuto to the neck knock the person unconcious easier since the muscle is pressing against the artery. On kata 2 the left spear can turn the head as it is retreating from the poke to neck.


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> DM #25
> 
> Start with Palm on top of ridge hand guard. Step right leg back or shift weight to right leg if starting form half moon followed by left downward palm block. Right spear to throat area then left cross hand shuto to throat. Left hand grabs lapel. Rt. ccw palm then cw palm. Left palm to jaw then right palm to jaw while the muscle is stretched.
> 
> This DM uses one of the same principles as Kata 2. Turning the neck tenses the Sterno Mastoid muscle. On DM 25 you use this to make the person move more on the last palm. On Kata 2 you use it to make the right shuto to the neck knock the person unconcious easier since the muscle is pressing against the artery. On kata 2 the left spear can turn the head as it is retreating from the poke to neck.


 
This is how I have the technique, with one minor change, I move inward, not back to begin the technique. First movement, in or back, can be determined from the aggressiveness of the attacker ... a gauge so-to-speak. Personally I lean towards inward movement.


----------



## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> This is how I have the technique, with one minor change, I move inward, not back to begin the technique. First movement, in or back, can be determined from the aggressiveness of the attacker ... a gauge so-to-speak. Personally I lean towards inward movement.



Interesting. What footwork do you use for the inward version?


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> Interesting. What footwork do you use for the inward version?


 
A small step-drag. Step in with the left foot, drag the right.


----------



## Jdokan

SK101 said:


> Final Strikes on 20 - Does anyone have reasons for where they strike? I.E. on DM 4 immortal mans to the eyes creates intense presure on the temples than you strike the temples with the trigger fingers or trigger fingers to the temples "bugs" the eyes out then you stick immortal mans in them.
> 
> I have front punch to temple then shuto to nose to end 20. I don't recall ever hearing a reason given for the strikes besides there nice targets.
> 
> Anyone have variations and/or reasons?


My variation is only the last strike....sword to the throat ....


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> DM #25
> 
> Start with Palm on top of ridge hand guard. Step right leg back or shift weight to right leg if starting form half moon followed by left downward palm block. Right spear to throat area then left cross hand shuto to throat. Left hand grabs lapel. Rt. ccw palm then cw palm. Left palm to jaw then right palm to jaw while the muscle is stretched.
> 
> This DM uses one of the same principles as Kata 2. Turning the neck tenses the Sterno Mastoid muscle. On DM 25 you use this to make the person move more on the last palm. On Kata 2 you use it to make the right shuto to the neck knock the person unconcious easier since the muscle is pressing against the artery. On kata 2 the left spear can turn the head as it is retreating from the poke to neck.


 

FV version:

Draw in a left cat and downward palm block with the left hand.  Right hand spear hand poke to the throat as you step in with the left foot.  Left crosshand shuto to the throat.  Right willow palm strike to the temple followed by a left willow palm strike to the temple.  That's it.


----------



## fnorfurfoot

Gufbal1982 said:


> FV version:
> 
> Draw in a left cat and downward palm block with the left hand. Right hand spear hand poke to the throat as you step in with the left foot. Left crosshand shuto to the throat. Right willow palm strike to the temple followed by a left willow palm strike to the temple. That's it.


The way we do 25 is very similar.  Instead of drawing back into a cat, we step forward and to the left with our left foot into a left half-moon stance + left downward palm block + Right knife hand strike to the collar bone.
Left cross knife to throat
Right glancing palm to face circling to the left
Left palm heel strike to face + Left knee buckles attacker's left knee


----------



## marlon

Gufbal1982 said:


> FV version:
> 
> Draw in a left cat and downward palm block with the left hand. Right hand spear hand poke to the throat as you step in with the left foot. Left crosshand shuto to the throat. Right willow palm strike to the temple followed by a left willow palm strike to the temple. That's it.


 
i have two small differences.  the cat stance is done by stepping to 5:00 therefore your hips are angled to 11:00 the block and strike happen at the same time.  and my reverse knife is to the plexus.  I originally had it to the throat but Prof.I does it to the plezus. and with the buckle

Marlon


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> i have two small differences. the cat stance is done by stepping to 5:00 therefore your hips are angled to 11:00 the block and strike happen at the same time.
> Marlon


 
If I am understanding your posts, you never step toward 6:00 when moving back. I would assume that is so you are not lined up with the opponents energy. Is that correct?


----------



## SK101

DM(Combo) # 26 
Right step back or half moon with #2 knife hand block. Step right foot toward 11:00 with right side leopard's paw to bicep shoulder separation or rising leopard's paw to armpit. Circular footwork ccw then left glancing elbow through ribs while right hand grabs the groin(grab the pants to be kind to your practice partner). Sweep opponents leg with both hands. Press opponents leg toward chest with left back hand then right shuto to groin. 

   I look at 26 like an advanced DM #2 so to speak. If you do the elbow/chicken wing on DM 2 to hard they fall over before you can sweep, which is fine felling is felling to a certain degree. If you don't hit them hard enough to move their weight to the heels you shouldn't sweep(in my opinion). Since you are holding their groin on 26 they don't fall. 

      This technique would seem to work nicely from an overhead strike you could just step in with the leopard paw instead of having to cross the left punch zone after moving back.

   Any thoughts on Club use with this DM. I don't like the idea of not controlling the weapon arm, but even if they don't drop the club from the leopard paw would their ability to strike be diminished with the strikes and positioning we're using? 

   21 Seems to me like it would be more appropriate to a club since your doing multiple strikes to the arm and then following up to the base of the skull for a posible knockout.


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> If I am understanding your posts, you never step toward 6:00 when moving back. I would assume that is so you are not lined up with the opponents energy. Is that correct?


 
correct, stepping into a cat stance i mostly do not back up to six o'clock.

marlon


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> DM(Combo) # 26
> Right step back or half moon with #2 knife hand block. Step right foot toward 11:00 with right side leopard's paw to bicep shoulder separation or rising leopard's paw to armpit. Circular footwork ccw then left glancing elbow through ribs while right hand grabs the groin(grab the pants to be kind to your practice partner). Sweep opponents leg with both hands. Press opponents leg toward chest with left back hand then right shuto to groin.
> 
> I look at 26 like an advanced DM #2 so to speak. If you do the elbow/chicken wing on DM 2 to hard they fall over before you can sweep, which is fine felling is felling to a certain degree. If you don't hit them hard enough to move their weight to the heels you shouldn't sweep(in my opinion). Since you are holding their groin on 26 they don't fall.
> 
> This technique would seem to work nicely from an overhead strike you could just step in with the leopard paw instead of having to cross the left punch zone after moving back.
> 
> Any thoughts on Club use with this DM. I don't like the idea of not controlling the weapon arm, but even if they don't drop the club from the leopard paw would their ability to strike be diminished with the strikes and positioning we're using?
> 
> 21 Seems to me like it would be more appropriate to a club since your doing multiple strikes to the arm and then following up to the base of the skull for a posible knockout.


 


.  i step forwards with the left leg to 12:00 and pivot my hips ccw to 11:00 with the leopard paw strike. (a sort of a step drag. i find it gives better uniformity of motion and power for the strike).  As i step through i like to give a forearm strike to the bicep, the elbow i do angled downwards and not glancing as in combo 2.  Done the way i do it the shuto is doen before the uke hits the ground.

marlon


----------



## DavidCC

Our version of #26 inserts a strike to the solar plexus just before the strike to the armpit, otherwise, it is identical.


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> DM(Combo) # 26
> Right step back or half moon with #2 knife hand block. Step right foot toward 11:00 with right side leopard's paw to bicep shoulder separation or rising leopard's paw to armpit. Circular footwork ccw then left glancing elbow through ribs while right hand grabs the groin(grab the pants to be kind to your practice partner). Sweep opponents leg with both hands. Press opponents leg toward chest with left back hand then right shuto to groin.
> 
> I look at 26 like an advanced DM #2 so to speak. If you do the elbow/chicken wing on DM 2 to hard they fall over before you can sweep, which is fine felling is felling to a certain degree. If you don't hit them hard enough to move their weight to the heels you shouldn't sweep(in my opinion). Since you are holding their groin on 26 they don't fall.
> 
> This technique would seem to work nicely from an overhead strike you could just step in with the leopard paw instead of having to cross the left punch zone after moving back.
> 
> Any thoughts on Club use with this DM. I don't like the idea of not controlling the weapon arm, but even if they don't drop the club from the leopard paw would their ability to strike be diminished with the strikes and positioning we're using?
> 
> 21 Seems to me like it would be more appropriate to a club since your doing multiple strikes to the arm and then following up to the base of the skull for a posible knockout.


 

I learned 26 from a guard stance, so there was no step back.  I learned it as a left outward knifehand block to the wrist and grab the wrist.  Step in with the right foot and do a leopards paw strike to the shoulder to start your opponent on the backwards motion.  Spin CCW, elbow to the sternum/collarbone with the left as you follow with a tigers claw to the groin with the right.  Sweep the leg with the left hand at the ankle and guide so you are on the inside of the legs...basically, have the knee as a check on the inside of the leg and the left hand is checking  the ankle.  Shuto strike to the groin, cross out and go on guard.  

26 can be used as a side club technique but you have to modify the footwork.


----------



## Jdokan

I am similar..weight shift right time his punch, left sword block arm, r/hand sword to his RIGHT clavicle, wrap the arm, the takedown is done with another sword to the left Clavicle while hawking the leg, Finish with the 3rd sword across the throat again at the clavicle joining point (pit of the throat).


----------



## Jdokan

SK101 said:


> DM#18 - There are at least 3 versions of the attack. T-Shirt version, Wall Version, Resistance/Whiplash. Does anyone have other variations?


Here's my take on 18: r/foot steps right to 4:00 left snap kick to groin as the l/hand does a downwards crane block similar to # 8 block,step towards opponent working against their centerline,strike with inverted ridgehand to the carodid  as the r/hand delivers a driving sword to the heart, l/hand hooking cranes' strike to back of neck pull opponent down into double driving knees, as you land drop a downward elbow to the spine, strike with inverted sword to the l/side neck (jugular), crane jump back into stance as you l/foot snap kick the face.


----------



## Jdokan

marlon said:


> For 10 you could use a stop kck, however i keep a strong aiki flow with this combo.
> 
> for 16 by stepping to 2:00 th arm thing is neutralized, also, a kick to the bladder can help extend thier arms also
> 
> Marlon


What I do for 10 is my l/hand does an upwards lifting block (cranes' wing) I get control of the arm by getting a fast block in place while simultaneously stepping forward w/my l/foot outside their foot(encircle their arm), delivering an upwards palm to the chin, circle the hand @ and deliver a ridge to the groin, uplifting palm ( at one time called white ape offering fruit) snapping the head back, continue pressing the head back and over, slide your r/foot behind them and take them down directing their head between your feet.  Most of my takedowns like this take out both feet not just one...the difference is it becomes a very violent takedown...hard to practice without your partner knowing or they freak out....not knowing how to land...try it carefully....


----------



## Jdokan

Gufbal1982 said:


> USSD 22: Step behind the opponent with the left foot while doing an open handed 5 block and spear hand poke to the neck (caratid artery) with the left hand while grabbing a hold of the wrist with the right hand. Bring the left arm across the throat . There are 2 ways to do the takedown. One is to sweep with the left leg while pushing them backwards with the left arm. The other is to do a hip displacement with the left leg...it's hard to explain. Either way, let go with the right immediately. Right heel kick to the ribs, right ball stomp to the solar plexus, turn towards the right, knee with the left to the solar, palm to the face and groin and jump off.
> 
> FV 22: Openhanded 5 block, 6 block, spear hand to the throat with the right, crosshand shuto with the left. Sweep with the left and follow thru to do an axe kick to the ribs of the downed opponent.
> I have it 2 ways the old FV way was very similar to what you listed...6 & 5 rising sword blocks 6 blocks at the wrist, 5 just above the elbow, while the l/hand spearpokes the throat, l/hand sword arm across the chest as your l/leg sweeps his r/leg, after teh takedown spin cclockwise deliver l/braising heel kick to the ribs rising up then stomping downward with twisting side kick into the throat..
> What I do here is r/cross palm/#6 swordblock, step forward r/inverted (palm down) spear to the throat same r/hand takedown and finish...


----------



## Jdokan

marlon said:


> i let go of the a b c variations and just do Prof. I's version which was my 23a with an alternate ending. the essential move from 23b i have in a kempo / animal from Shihan
> 23
> right leg steps back into a left cats stance (long step) with a Buhdda swallow (right hand palm up recieving left dropping knife hitting lung 6 and sliding/ pulling to the wrist) twist hips cw bracing left forearm in the attcking arm (careful easy elbow dislocation here...speaking from experiance it takes no power to do)step in to 11:00 with the left leg into a forward stance with a left reverse knife to the ribs (the return motion of the hips /waist giving power as well as the sinking of the center with the change of stance) right knife hand to the plexus, then simultaneaous left tiger mouth the the occiput and right tiger mouth to the throat (let the right thumb ride up to penetrate underneath the tmj) tilt the head back and step behind uke for a throw using uke's head of course. Kempo is sooo nice
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


My technique is VERY similar the only diff is I use an inverted palm to the head and tiger mouth the throat...step behind throw to the ground tear out the throat....


----------



## Gufbal1982

combination 27:

FV:

start from a guard stance.  left knee comes up and the left arm goes down in a downward knifehand block to trap on the knee.  deflect with the left arm and left foot does an instep kick to the groin.  downward right hand shuto the collarbone on the oppponent's right side.  left hand crosshand shuto to the throat.  turn using the "sticky body" principle.  use the right hand knifehand side to turn the body.  step thru with the left foot as you strike to the spine with the right hand driving shuto.


----------



## SK101

Same on 27. On the last strike does anyone have it as driving shuto to the lower/mid spine then rise it up the spinal column? This was the way Master Taylor taught it to me, but I don't recall seeing other people doing it that way. 

1st strike brings them forward into the next two strikes, the fourth strike takes advantage of head moving backward. If you hit low on the fifth strike you can take advantage of the hips moving back from the head strike. 

Anyone have a particular principle(s) they consider 27 to be teaching?


----------



## SK101

DM #28 - Right leg steps forward with left knife hand block and right palm to forehead. Right hand grabs the hair. Right hook kick to spine. Step right leg under opponents arm(keep your hips perpindicular and close theirs) then left hook kick to solar plexus. Right leg hawks opponent down. Grab wrist with both arms and drive your heel or ball of foot into the armpit as you pull the wrist toward you. 

1st strike moves them back. 2nd strike moves them forward into the 3rd strike. 3rd strike moves them back making the takedown easier. 

There is a groin strike version on this DM, but I have never understood how folding them forward would help with the takedown. Any one have a reason they have been given on that version?

Any principle(s) that you might see 28 as teaching?


----------



## SK101

Jdokan said:


> Come back into the throat with a tiger mouth strike bending himover backwards...step behind him with your r/leg (horse stance) FORCE HIM TO THE GROUND...tear out the throat,



Are you removing the throat while they fall or after? If you do it while they fall you have gravity to help you. Either way your opponent won't complain.


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> i have two small differences.  the cat stance is done by stepping to 5:00 therefore your hips are angled to 11:00 the block and strike happen at the same time.  and my reverse knife is to the plexus.  I originally had it to the throat but Prof.I does it to the plezus. and with the buckle
> 
> Marlon



Re: DM 25

From a body mechanics point of view the solar plexus seems to make more sense since you just hit the throat, the solar plexus will be exposed and possably moving slightly forward, then the head is coming forward into the palm. 

 I have never had that way, but it sounds more biomechanically correct than the version I have.


----------



## SK101

I may have asked this before, but I will ask again as I didn't see it when I was reviewing. Anyone have an explanation for the control of the left hand on DM #10? I.E. stopping the left punch from hitting you after you block.


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> I may have asked this before, but I will ask again as I didn't see it when I was reviewing. Anyone have an explanation for the control of the left hand on DM #10? I.E. stopping the left punch from hitting you after you block.


 
Good question ... Hopefully this will involk more thoughts, I remedy the left by moving in immediately. The #2 open hand block is simultaneous with an ridgehand strike to the groin.

At least where I'm from, it is taught the first movement in #10 is stepping back with the right and blocking, then stepping in with the right, deliverying a ridgehand to the groin.


----------



## RevIV

14 Kempo said:


> Good question ... Hopefully this will involk more thoughts, I remedy the left by moving in immediately. The #2 open hand block is simultaneous with an ridgehand strike to the groin.
> 
> At least where I'm from, it is taught the first movement in #10 is stepping back with the right and blocking, then stepping in with the right, deliverying a ridgehand to the groin.


 
We do not step back in ours. We attack the attack, blocking the hook punch and striking groin immediately.  Almost all of our Combo's that has an outward block is done in defense of a hook.  
Jesse


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> I may have asked this before, but I will ask again as I didn't see it when I was reviewing. Anyone have an explanation for the control of the left hand on DM #10? I.E. stopping the left punch from hitting you after you block.



You are doing a sweetheart takedown...Bringing their head to your left shoulder, using neck control reduces that.  Plus, your right hand will act as a check.


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> I may have asked this before, but I will ask again as I didn't see it when I was reviewing. Anyone have an explanation for the control of the left hand on DM #10? I.E. stopping the left punch from hitting you after you block.


 
step in close 'take their center'strike the groin at the same time as the block and then shoot the right hand up immediately angling only aftert you make contact with the head this `jams`the possible follow up attack and serves as a `cover`/ guard to protect your head as you strike

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

Gufbal1982 said:


> combination 27:
> 
> FV:
> 
> start from a guard stance. left knee comes up and the left arm goes down in a downward knifehand block to trap on the knee. deflect with the left arm and left foot does an instep kick to the groin. downward right hand shuto the collarbone on the oppponent's right side. left hand crosshand shuto to the throat. turn using the "sticky body" principle. use the right hand knifehand side to turn the body. step thru with the left foot as you strike to the spine with the right hand driving shuto.


 
i have a driving knife hand to the cheek bone instead of the dropping knife to the clavicle.
i have an eblow or reverse knife to the spine or kidneys with the turn depending on distance.
driving knife to the spine or a whip like dropping palm to the cervicle spine (like throwing a baeball)

marlon


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> DM #28 - Right leg steps forward with left knife hand block and right palm to forehead. Right hand grabs the hair. Right hook kick to spine. Step right leg under opponents arm(keep your hips perpindicular and close theirs) then left hook kick to solar plexus. Right leg hawks opponent down. Grab wrist with both arms and drive your heel or ball of foot into the armpit as you pull the wrist toward you.
> 
> 1st strike moves them back. 2nd strike moves them forward into the 3rd strike. 3rd strike moves them back making the takedown easier.
> 
> There is a groin strike version on this DM, but I have never understood how folding them forward would help with the takedown. Any one have a reason they have been given on that version?
> 
> Any principle(s) that you might see 28 as teaching?


 

28's takedown has a good concept with the takedown.  You pull the arm one way as you sweep the leg the other way.  You are taking away their center and putting it where you want it.  There's a concept in physics that relates to this but I can't remember it right now.  Wrestlers do this a lot while working for takedowns.  They pull you one way, and then go a different direction just to take the center away from you.  

FV teaches it differently.  USSD teaches the old 28 as a kempo punch technique.  

left outward knifehand block and grab the wrist.  Step in with a right leopard's paw to the armpit.  Left hook kick to the solar plexus (or groin), right hook kick to the spine, sweep the leg and go on guard.  That's it.  

This may be the version of 28 with the groin strike that you are thinking of.  You hit them in the groin to lower their level (fold them forward) so you can strike the spine to make their center go backwards.  That stands them right back up for the takedown.  They have lost their balance point to be able to defend the sweep.


----------



## SK101

Gufbal1982 said:


> left outward knifehand block and grab the wrist. Step in with a right leopard's paw to the armpit. Left hook kick to the solar plexus (or groin), right hook kick to the spine, sweep the leg and go on guard. That's it.
> 
> This may be the version of 28 with the groin strike that you are thinking of. You hit them in the groin to lower their level (fold them forward) so you can strike the spine to make their center go backwards. That stands them right back up for the takedown. They have lost their balance point to be able to defend the sweep.


 
I used to have that kempo, but I didn't have the 2nd hook kick on it. It is on the USSD Blue video I believe so I will check tonight. They could always have 2 versions. Shaolin 1 is what I remember it as. It has been at least 10 years since I learned it with a name. The video version didn't have a name, they just had a few kempos on each video.


----------



## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> I used to have that kempo, but I didn't have the 2nd hook kick on it. It is on the USSD Blue video I believe so I will check tonight. They could always have 2 versions. Shaolin 1 is what I remember it as. It has been at least 10 years since I learned it with a name. The video version didn't have a name, they just had a few kempos on each video.



Yeah...that's the one!  The only difference is that the real combination has 2 kicks instead of the one.


----------



## SK101

DM #29 - Right foot steps over left with left hammer to nerve box then right cross hand chicken(Dragon's head sounds much better than chicken wrist) to temple. Right hand grabs hair and pulls opponents head back as left foot steps behind opponent then left shuto to throat taking opponent down. Tiger claws to face and groin. Rake from head to groin and groin to head. Then Reverse. Finally pivot 90 degrees CW with left rake to solar plexus and chin as right hand rakes the air behind you to throw more energy into the left and offset the left hand for balance. 

Drunken Monkey Version - stumble threw your stances in the beginning and change hammer and chicken wrists to shot glass strikes. 

There is a common theme between DM 15(USSD version), DM 29, and the snow leopard kempo from Professor Ingargiola. They all use the right twist stance to get behind the opponent.

Strike 1 brings the head down into strike 2, 2nd strike makes the take down easier by scrambling the brain and allowing you to push the opponent's head toward 4:30. The hair pull exposes the throat and begins breaking the balance. Strike 4 drives the opponent into the floor. Hitting the groin and face simultaneously doesn't allow the body to react way it normally would to resist damage(Similar to P3). There are 5 "air strikes" in rapid succession 2 Groin strikes and 3 solar plexus hits. We really need a throat strike in their to make things more interesting.

Does anyone know if Professor I teaches this as meridian clearing?


----------



## SK101

I think DM 29 is the 2nd DM to pull hair not including a possible hair pull on 26 which I won't explain. I don't think we went over scientific hair pulling on 21 so maybe now would be a good time. 

Always pull against the roots if possible. The front hair should be pulled toward the back and the back toward the front. Left toward right and right toward left. When you pull against the root it is much more painful and gives more control. 

On the top of the head place your palm flat presses out as much air as possible then grip into a tight fist.

Since we are grabbing the hair anyway why not use a left ridge hand to the opponents right temple so you can grab the forward hair. You would need thre right to do the takedown, but would that be much more difficult?


----------



## SK101

Gufbal1982 said:


> Yeah...that's the one!  The only difference is that the real combination has 2 kicks instead of the one.



I might be way off, but I would guess United would remove that kick for safety. With the first kick possibly making the person go backward toward the 2nd kick they may have been worried that someone might not stop there kick before permanent damage was done.


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> i have a driving knife hand to the cheek bone instead of the dropping knife to the clavicle.
> i have an eblow or reverse knife to the spine or kidneys with the turn depending on distance.
> driving knife to the spine or a whip like dropping palm to the cervicle spine (like throwing a baeball)
> 
> marlon



   I would think a cheek bone strike would open up the throat especially if you were pushing their head back with the strike. 

  The strike to spine or kidney seems strange since you just got their head to move back and their hips are probably moving forward.

   I like the last move since you just struck low the head should be coming back right into the whipping palm. 

Marlon let me know if I am being a pain with these questions.


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> it is not skeletal freezing just positioning that makes counter attacking not flow easily.  Plus we end up fighting from the side which not everyone trains to do...an SK advantage that i enjoy.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



Hello what is skeletal freezing? Above was from DM 13 conversation.


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> I would think a cheek bone strike would open up the throat especially if you were pushing their head back with the strike.
> 
> The strike to spine or kidney seems strange since you just got their head to move back and their hips are probably moving forward.
> 
> I like the last move since you just struck low the head should be coming back right into the whipping palm.
> 
> Marlon let me know if I am being a pain with these questions.


 

i love questions.  they are a good way for me to learn.  a good strike to the kidney will cause the back to arch brining the head back.  The spine does have the problem you mentioned so a driving knife works better than the palm strike.

marlon


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> i love questions. they are a good way for me to learn. a good strike to the kidney will cause the back to arch brining the head back. The spine does have the problem you mentioned so a driving knife works better than the palm strike.
> 
> marlon


 
I wasn't questioning the palm strike. I actually like it after the kidney strike version. 

I was pointing out that on the shuto strike to back of neck version instead of kidney your following manipulation theory since you hit the throat just before. Not saying that one is right or wrong just creating discussion of the small details. 

Any thoughts from anyone on advantage and disadvantages of trapping the hand on a self defense technique.

A hand trap on the inside should always pull an opponent off balance since you have tied up one hand with your two.

Does the trap make the groin kick easier since they can't move back as easily?


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> We shift wieght to the right and the hands move with you and only slightly raised for protection and power.  The strikes i have are to the arm and to the right cheek bone striking slightly upwards.  The step is extremely important for positioning, power and distruption of the attacker's platform to counter.  After the arm wrap we do a tiger mouth to the throat and continue to walk towards 10:30 for the takedown..no leg hock (the power of this move can be seen in a Segal movie...something with him on a train...the hock is not necessary.  at the end we brace the arm on the left shin , thrust to the head and spear poke to the arm pit.
> the shift at the beginning i look at more as angling for attack than an escape but also good for that.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



Regarding DM 20 - Is this a Professor I Variation also or from elsewhere?


----------



## SK101

DM30 - Drop like a rear slap out while moving forward and performing right heel kick to groin. Turn hips toward 9:00 opening legs to scissor position. Right goes toward 9:00 while right goes toward 3:00. Right leg presses back of knee while left leg presses the ankle. Hold your weight on two arms and 1 leg then right axe kick to kidney. 1/2 roll toward 3:00 then downward roundhouse to ceribellum.


----------



## fnorfurfoot

SK101 said:


> DM30 - Drop like a rear slap out while moving forward and performing right heel kick to groin. Turn hips toward 9:00 opening legs to scissor position. Right goes toward 9:00 while right goes toward 3:00. Right leg presses back of knee while left leg presses the ankle. Hold your weight on two arms and 1 leg then right axe kick to kidney. 1/2 roll toward 3:00 then downward roundhouse to ceribellum.


That's pretty much the way I have it.


----------



## RevIV

#30 - we start from the ground.  Left front kick to knee, person bends over, left ball roundhouse to head. then scissor take down roll all the way over RT kick to persons head.  I dont see why a kempo guy would fall to the ground to do this technique so we do it as a technique that we are already on the ground and this is how we have to defend ourselves.
Jesse


----------



## fnorfurfoot

RevIV said:


> #30 - we start from the ground.  Left front kick to knee, person bends over, left ball roundhouse to head. then scissor take down roll all the way over RT kick to persons head.  I dont see why a kempo guy would fall to the ground to do this technique so we do it as a technique that we are already on the ground and this is how we have to defend ourselves.
> Jesse


 
It's not ment to be a technique where you drop to the ground to take the guy out.  It's a "what if?" kind of technique where something went wrong.  You might have tripped over something behind you or slipped on some ice.  For whatever reason, you ended up on your butt.  This combo is teaching you how to use your legs to defend yourself if you ever found yourself on the ground.


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> #30 - we start from the ground. Left front kick to knee, person bends over, left ball roundhouse to head. then scissor take down roll all the way over RT kick to persons head. I dont see why a kempo guy would fall to the ground to do this technique so we do it as a technique that we are already on the ground and this is how we have to defend ourselves.
> Jesse


 Mine is a little different.  we do a little jumping side thrust kick to the knee. drop to the grouond and do the take down finishing with the roundhouse to the head. I, too, feel that this is about using your legs on the ground and masterI teaches it that way but... to date i have not changed it
marlon


----------



## RevIV

fnorfurfoot said:


> It's not ment to be a technique where you drop to the ground to take the guy out. It's a "what if?" kind of technique where something went wrong. You might have tripped over something behind you or slipped on some ice. For whatever reason, you ended up on your butt. This combo is teaching you how to use your legs to defend yourself if you ever found yourself on the ground.


 
Ok,  but when doing the technique do you have the attacker come in with the front punch or are you already on the ground.  I was taught it similiar to Marlon where the person comes in with a punch, you slide into him and do the upward side kick.  the other version taught to me by Master Fred Bagley was a flying scissor take down.  I now only teach this with the person already on the ground.
Jesse


----------



## Jdokan

SK101 said:


> Are you removing the throat while they fall or after? If you do it while they fall you have gravity to help you. Either way your opponent won't complain.


 
I keep "hands on" until they reach the ground....the tear could be twist, pull, etc....


----------



## Jdokan

RevIV said:


> Ok, but when doing the technique do you have the attacker come in with the front punch or are you already on the ground. I was taught it similiar to Marlon where the person comes in with a punch, you slide into him and do the upward side kick. the other version taught to me by Master Fred Bagley was a flying scissor take down. I now only teach this with the person already on the ground.
> Jesse


This is a technique I really never liked..shame on me I know...WIth that in mind here is my take considering I don't like falling (especially at my age), once I get my First Alert maybe things will change......

Left covering palm guiding it into a r/dragons tail wrap...I "get heavy" on their arm falling backwards letting their weight slow down the impact of me hitting the ground... this pulls them forward and off balance, my r/foot does a forward snake type kick to the groin, sissor their forward foot (r/f) the sissor is done with my r/foot striking behind thier knee as my l/foot is bracing their ankle.  I roll cw with the takedown forcing them to the ground on their stomach...I continue rolling using my left leg to hold pressure on thier foot developing resistance for a release to kick them in the back of the head (using the instep)....roll off into a standing guard....


----------



## SK101

DM #31 

Pull into left cat stance with left whipping palm to wrist followed by right tiger's claw to nose. spin cw to the ground. As they fall hit them with left/right/left tiger claws then driving tiger's claw while they are on the ground.


----------



## Gufbal1982

USSD has a different version of this.  It recently was changed to this:

left hand downward palm block to the wrist, right downward palm to the nose.  grab the head.  left inverted tigers mouth to the throat.  using the head, rotate it clockwise till you are back to back, with their head on your shoulder.  take them down.  right heal kick to the ribs, right heal kick to the solar, right axe kick to the opposite side of the ribs.  thrust punch to the face and groin as you kneel on them with the left leg.


----------



## Jdokan

L/cross palm block, r/downward cranes' sword (using the edge of the arm in addition to the shuto) to the right side of the opponents neck.  The left hand moves the punch outside of center, shove forward w/ simultaneous crane's swords: R to the same area again as the L strikes into the R/hip groin area. Right arm encircles the neck from back to front cw.  Controlling the neck twist continuously in the same direction while turning your upper body cw 90 degrees.  Using the left arem "guide" don't try and lift the opponents leg OVER.  You'll end up facing the 3:00 position... As you Guide the leg over that L hand will be high as the R hand is still cradling the head.  The L hand rakes up the face (they will be feet away from you) as the R hand circles around and delivers a sword to the heart.  Retreat into a guard position.


----------



## marlon

31
left step to 11:00 with a left dropping knife the the attacking arm then a right dropping knife to the collar bone (attacker's right side). left tiger claw to the groin then the right hand presses on the back of the neck.  Pivot cw and rotate your hand in a cw motion = takedown finish with a left - right - left tiger claws to the face from a cat stance

marlon


----------



## marlon

32 
left step to 11:00 with a left outward open hand block (#2) and shift ccw into a forward stance facing 11:00 with a leaopard paw to the brachial nerve plexus under the arm or through the shoulder. (the leopard paw strike acts as a cover if you hide your head with the strike. 
Both hand grasp the attackers right / attacking wrist as the right leg steps through to 11:30 then with a ccw movement give a left spinning hook kick the the groin .  replace left foot to the previous position then step back through the attackers legs with the right leg while bringing both your armsover your shoulder down the your right hip = takedown
right front ball kick to the ribs then right axe kick to the left side of uke's neck turn ccw still holding the arm and left axe kick towards the right side of the neck = damage to the arm ..cross and cover

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## SK101

I may have asked this before, but I'll ask again. Why hit the groin before a takedown. It seems to me the opponent would lean forward. Is there a way to hit the groin without the person leaning forward?

32 is a good example of locking strikes. Sometimes you hit to lock the opponent in place or you hit and then grab to lock the opponent in place. 
This is sometimes called anchoring, the body must absorb more energy.

On 32 after you drop the first axe kick to the neck you can turn the foot sideways so it is placed along the side of the head. When second axe kick hits the neck there is where for the opponent to move. The neck is stuck when the strike lands.

28 & 32 both employee hook kicks, but they are short hook kicks. The heel comes toward your rear end. When you do a regular hook the heel being brought to the rear means you glance off the target. The larger the circle the hook travels the more power it has. The smaller the circle the quicker it arrives. 

The hook kick can have at least 3 striking surfaces. The heel which does the most damage, the ball which has more range, or the flat of the foot for takedowns.


----------



## SK101

DM #33 -

   Left Iron fortress block while drawing into a left cat stance. Step forward into left halfmoon with left front punch to the nose then left hand wraps wraps behind the head as you perform right roundhouse elbow to the nose. Pull opponent's head facing the ground as you perform right rising ridgehand to throat. Right downward shuto to the top back of the neck. Left thrust punch to the ribs then right thrust to temple(palm is nice also).

Cat stance - Any time you draw into a cat stance you are first and formost "blocking" with that stance. The traditional block on the technique should not be needed it is only a secondary block and there to move the opponents arm out of your way. 

   The cat stance allows you to spring toward the opponent creating a large amount energy.

    A front punch has less energy than a back punch when delivered to a target that is higher than your shoulder. A backpunch has less energy then a front punch when delivered below your own shoulder height. A front punch has more range than a back punch. A back punch is faster since it has no rotation. A punch that rotates has more power. What determines the punch you use is target shape(how well the punch fits to that target), the distance of the opponent, and the time allowed to strike.     

    The front punch and elbow are striking the same area twice so there is a need to really flow from the front punch to the roundhouse elbow.

    This technique employees bouncing. You use the energy from the rebound of one strike to drive you into another strike. Elbow to ridge hand then ridge hand to shuto. Thrust punch to thrust punch.

   It also employees the theory of body mechanics. Hitting one area which then directs the opponent into the next strike. Ridge hand to throat as opponent body lifts up you perform downward shuto.


----------



## SK101

DM #33 

   This DM brings back the DM#3 debate. Should students have knuckle strikes to the head in their material? I've been told in the past that the temple is a soft target therefore there is nothing wrong with a knuckle strike to the temple, but people move in fights and yellow belts miss. 

   DM 33 is taught at 2nd Degree so one could make the argument that by this time a student should be accurate, but what about the back punch on #3?

   Any thoughts from anyone? Any one used a knuckle strike to the temple in a real fight or had a student use it?


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> I may have asked this before, but I'll ask again. Why hit the groin before a takedown. It seems to me the opponent would lean forward. Is there a way to hit the groin without the person leaning forward?
> 
> 
> 
> I do not understand why you would not want them to bend.  Once thier body alignment is disrupted it is much easier to take them down.
> 
> marlon


----------



## marlon

My 33 is a little different.  double outward tigers to the face (opening) with a rt snap kick to the groin (may account for the cat stance that i do not have) the left hand grabs the back of the head and a right elbow to the head.  circle the rt arm back and give a rt thrust punch / upper cut to the plexus the rt arm circles up and  the lt hand presses the head lower then a rt dropping elbow to the spine. lt thrust to the ribs then rt thrust to the temple or neck shift wieght forwards with a shuffle step and double rising elbows to the neck and ribs...this should knock the attacker off thier feet.

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> Hello Marlon,
> 
> The answer to that would be, because I have never actually kicked anyone in the groin and then performed the takedown. I have always just shown the strike and swept the person while they were still upright. I will experiment by having someone bend forward like they were hit in the groin and see if it works for me. Do you practice the takedown from the person being bent forward?


----------



## marlon

yes..and i have been hit in the groin..i certainly bent!!
marlon


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> DM #33 -
> 
> ).
> 
> Cat stance - Any time you draw into a cat stance you are first and formost "blocking" with that stance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would have to say that a cat stance is first and foremost an escape.  The structural inegrity of the best cat stance will not tolerate a powerful frontal assault at all.  Notice one always "draws" into a cat stance or pivots into one...take a look at the forms.  We say draw as in short for draw away/ retreat/ escape into a cat stance.  My thoughts...i may be wrong it has happened before and will again.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


----------



## RevIV

SK101 said:


> DM #33
> 
> This DM brings back the DM#3 debate. Should students have knuckle strikes to the head in their material? I've been told in the past that the temple is a soft target therefore there is nothing wrong with a knuckle strike to the temple, but people move in fights and yellow belts miss.
> 
> DM 33 is taught at 2nd Degree so one could make the argument that by this time a student should be accurate, but what about the back punch on #3?
> 
> Any thoughts from anyone? Any one used a knuckle strike to the temple in a real fight or had a student use it?


 
I would never use a knuckle strike to the temple in a fight unless i was in some serious danger.  Theory has it that if you strike the head you could break your hand.. If you ar fighting, then you are on your last resort.  I'll take a broken hand over getting beat anyday.  Also when doing take downs it is a lot harder to take someone down if they are bent forwards.  It has to be one powerful sweep (iron Broom)  to get them down.  #28 - iron broom sweep, #32 iron broom sweep with a shoulder lock,  They may be bent forwards from the hook kick but they are coming back up with that shoulder lock.
In Peace
Jesse


----------



## marlon

[ Also when doing take downs it is a lot harder to take someone down if they are bent forwards. It has to be one powerful sweep (iron Broom) to get them down. #28 - iron broom sweep, #32 iron broom sweep with a shoulder lock, They may be bent forwards from the hook kick but they are coming back up with that shoulder lock.
In Peace
Jesse[/quote]


yes but a takedown as in  3 and 31 is easier if the person is bent forwards.  Direction can be everything

marlon


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> SK101 said:
> 
> 
> 
> DM #33 -
> 
> ).
> 
> Cat stance - Any time you draw into a cat stance you are first and formost "blocking" with that stance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would have to say that a cat stance is first and foremost an escape. The structural inegrity of the best cat stance will not tolerate a powerful frontal assault at all. Notice one always "draws" into a cat stance or pivots into one...take a look at the forms. We say draw as in short for draw away/ retreat/ escape into a cat stance. My thoughts...i may be wrong it has happened before and will again.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would say you right on. I used the term block for lack of a better word at the time. What you are saying is exactly how I look at a cat stance.
Click to expand...


----------



## SK101

RevIV said:


> I would never use a knuckle strike to the temple in a fight unless i was in some serious danger. Theory has it that if you strike the head you could break your hand.. If you ar fighting, then you are on your last resort. I'll take a broken hand over getting beat anyday. Also when doing take downs it is a lot harder to take someone down if they are bent forwards. It has to be one powerful sweep (iron Broom) to get them down. #28 - iron broom sweep, #32 iron broom sweep with a shoulder lock, They may be bent forwards from the hook kick but they are coming back up with that shoulder lock.
> In Peace
> Jesse


 
I have always thought of an iron broom as using the shin. Is that the takedown you have on 28 and 32? Are you taking them down from the front or the back?


----------



## SK101

yes but a takedown as in 3 and 31 is easier if the person is bent forwards. Direction can be everything

marlon[/quote]

Hey Marlon the takedowns I have on 28 and 32 are hawkdowns(making the opponent fall backwards). 3 and 31 are different takedowns. Are you using a hawkdown after bending your opponent forward or are you using a different takedown?


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> DM #33 -
> 
> Left Iron fortress block while drawing into a left cat stance. Step forward into left halfmoon with left front punch to the nose then left hand wraps wraps behind the head as you perform right roundhouse elbow to the nose.


 
Ours is very similar, we use a modified fortress block, left ridgehand block. Our first strike is a left glancing palm strike to an immediate wrap and right roundhouse elbow to the nose. The rest was all the same.


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> yes but a takedown as in 3 and 31 is easier if the person is bent forwards. Direction can be everything
> 
> marlon


 
Hey Marlon the takedowns I have on 28 and 32 are hawkdowns(making the opponent fall backwards). 3 and 31 are different takedowns. Are you using a hawkdown after bending your opponent forward or are you using a different takedown?[/quote]


not at all Jesse i was just bringing uop other takedowns after a person is bent that flow with.  28 i have a low reaping of the leg / hook kick / sweep for a takedowm and 32 sort of a hawk down but more steeping back through the opponent...in the end probably the same way you have it and just taught  or thought with different words.
be well
Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## RevIV

Marlon, you answered to me but it was Sk101 that was bringing it up.  I do not have a "hawkdown" in those combo's - I do however have it in Combo #1 and #20.  When i teach the iron broom it is usually a 2 step sweeping *drill*-- the first movement would be the low shin sweep (my front leg) and if that misses it is a full circular sweeping motion 9continuing circle and using my back leg) hitting with the back of the leg low on opponent.  This latter part is what i use in 28 and 32.  And Marlon the angle of the body in #3 and #31 is essential on the ease of the takedown, but the questions at hand send the guy in the opposite direction of the bend so i like the iron broom motion that i use.  Great interpretations.
oh yeah - i throw in a RT knee to stomach before the takedown in #31 -  makes it even easier.
In Peace
Jesse


----------



## LawDog

Old # 2   1970
We were taught a glancing inside block that flowed into a backfist to the nose. The back fist snapped the opponents head back, slightly disrupting his balance and also disrupting his visoning by making the eyes water some.


----------



## marlon

Yeah Jesse, sorry about the mix up.
respectfully,
marlon
btw a friend noticed i wrote "hawkdown" i do not know where that came from but i usually call it a hock down and i know others call it a leg hock takedown.  Perhaps since two of my teachers were french speaking learning from Bostonians words got a little ...translated...






RevIV said:


> Marlon, you answered to me but it was Sk101 that was bringing it up. I do not have a "hawkdown" in those combo's - I do however have it in Combo #1 and #20. When i teach the iron broom it is usually a 2 step sweeping *drill*-- the first movement would be the low shin sweep (my front leg) and if that misses it is a full circular sweeping motion 9continuing circle and using my back leg) hitting with the back of the leg low on opponent. This latter part is what i use in 28 and 32. And Marlon the angle of the body in #3 and #31 is essential on the ease of the takedown, but the questions at hand send the guy in the opposite direction of the bend so i like the iron broom motion that i use. Great interpretations.
> oh yeah - i throw in a RT knee to stomach before the takedown in #31 - makes it even easier.
> In Peace
> Jesse


----------



## marlon

[


----------



## SK101

LawDog said:


> Old # 2 1970
> We were taught a glancing inside block that flowed into a backfist to the nose. The back fist snapped the opponents head back, slightly disrupting his balance and also disrupting his visoning by making the eyes water some.


 
I like the back fist to the nose when you are taller then the opponent. I also like it for teaching circular motion when you do the large circle then back fist versus just back fisting right off the block. The large circle does take more time however.


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## drag0nking38

14 Kempo said:


> Sounds like a decent technique, but then again, sounds like nothing I've ever been taught.


 
The # combo you're describing is #24 in most east coast skk schools.


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## 14 Kempo

drag0nking38 said:


> The # combo you're describing is #24 in most east coast skk schools.


 
Our #24 moves inward. Step in with the left, downward crosshand block. Scissor strike to the throat. Double outward rakes to the face. Double poison thumbs to the eyes/orbits.

So we're a bit different in the West, at least where I use to train.


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## Hand Sword

Our strikes are the same, but the opening differs. We cat stance backward, softly cross blocking down ward, then lunge forward with the strikes.


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## kempo7

14 Kempo said:


> Our #24 moves inward. Step in with the left, downward crosshand block. Scissor strike to the throat. Double outward rakes to the face. Double poison thumbs to the eyes/orbits.
> 
> So we're a bit different in the West, at least where I use to train.


 
I'm on the east coast and thats how i have done 24 for the last 26 years, only with out the scissor strike to the throat.


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## Jdokan

RevIV said:


> I would never use a knuckle strike to the temple in a fight unless i was in some serious danger. Theory has it that if you strike the head you could break your hand.. If you ar fighting, then you are on your last resort. I'll take a broken hand over getting beat anyday. Also when doing take downs it is a lot harder to take someone down if they are bent forwards. It has to be one powerful sweep (iron Broom) to get them down. #28 - iron broom sweep, #32 iron broom sweep with a shoulder lock, They may be bent forwards from the hook kick but they are coming back up with that shoulder lock.
> In Peace
> Jesse


I think the head/temple are okay as long as you're controlling the force of the strike...Personally I  strike the ridge directly under the eye on #3 & #2...I use a snap strike controlling the amount of force so not to be too excessive.


----------



## RevIV

Jdokan said:


> I think the head/temple are okay as long as you're controlling the force of the strike...Personally I strike the ridge directly under the eye on #3 & #2...I use a snap strike controlling the amount of force so not to be too excessive.


 
on #2 I am almost back fisting/uppercutting the jaw.  I have to add here that i do #2 combo of off a left/right combo w/ the left foot of the attacker being forward.  I do like your contact point in #3 though.  Will def. have to play around with it tommorow.
Jesse


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## LawDog

The combination #24 that I was originally taught is the same as 14 Kempo's. I find that it works really well against a front kick.


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## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> Our #24 moves inward. Step in with the left, downward crosshand block. Scissor strike to the throat. Double outward rakes to the face. Double poison thumbs to the eyes/orbits.
> 
> So we're a bit different in the West, at least where I use to train.


 

We call that one #14.  but no scissor strike.  And finish with a front ball kick to SP.


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## Hand Sword

If that's you're #14, what number is the one with a jumping scissor kick? (the other people's #14)


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## MeatWad2

DavidCC said:


> We call that one #14. but no scissor strike. And finish with a front ball kick to SP.


 
I agree with Handsword...what is the scissor's kick combination then?


----------



## SK101

It has quite a while since the last post - 

DM # 34 Right leg steps back into left half moon stance w/ #3 & #4 palm or crane blocks. Right front ball kick to solar plexus. Right then left rolling chicken wrists to the eyes(this part was removed on the 1st version I had). Right crane's beak to right temple and left crane's beak to left side of neck. Right hand pulls opponent's head down as left knee strikes solar plexus. Left elbow to spine as you land facing 3:00. Left hand lays across left side of opponent's neck as you spin cw toward 9:00. Right rear elbow.Right rising shuto to throat as you turn cw to 3:00 then left palm to face.


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## SK101

DM #35

Sun step cw to left side horse stance with right iron fortress block. Right hand slides to opponents wrist. Left palm to elbow then temple. Left side kick to ribs. Cross or spin out.


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## Jdokan

MeatWad2 said:


> I agree with Handsword...what is the scissor's kick combination then?


Years ago my #14 was the jumping sissors kick...It has morphed into a totally different technique...
Step left similar to #18, left rising wrist block with a left snap kick to the "forward" knee..(Here's where it can change depending on which foot is forward)If the right leg is foward then the right foot snaps an instep kick to the groin/ If the left leg is foward then alter the kick to a ball kick to the lower ribs, the last kick will be another  right ball kick to a higher target...depending on how your second kick hit..assumably you have bent him over so the last kick can hit the head...If you hit him to hard to high and he is leaning away....get creative....


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## 14 Kempo

Jdokan said:


> Years ago my #14 was the jumping sissors kick...It has morphed into a totally different technique...
> Step left similar to #18, left rising wrist block with a left snap kick to the "forward" knee..(Here's where it can change depending on which foot is forward)If the right leg is foward then the right foot snaps an instep kick to the groin/ If the left leg is foward then alter the kick to a ball kick to the lower ribs, the last kick will be another right ball kick to a higher target...depending on how your second kick hit..assumably you have bent him over so the last kick can hit the head...If you hit him to hard to high and he is leaning away....get creative....


 
I've seen this version somewhere, or a close relative to it.


----------



## Jdokan

Jdokan said:


> Years ago my #14 was the jumping sissors kick...It has morphed into a totally different technique...
> Step left similar to #18, left rising wrist block with a left snap kick to the "forward" knee..(Here's where it can change depending on which foot is forward)If the right leg is foward then the right foot snaps an instep kick to the groin/ If the left leg is foward then alter the kick to a ball kick to the lower ribs, the last kick will be another right ball kick to a higher target...depending on how your second kick hit..assumably you have bent him over so the last kick can hit the head...If you hit him to hard to high and he is leaning away....get creative....


ERRRRRR
SHould be step right...not left...sorry folks!!


----------



## marlon

anyone still intertested in moving on to the next combo?

marlon


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## DavidCC

Hand Sword said:


> If that's you're #14, what number is the one with a jumping scissor kick? (the other people's #14)


 
Hmmm....

I'm only green belt, don't know them all yet... but I am near 100% sure that we do not have a combo with a jumping scissor kick.

Our version of SKK is fairly trimmed down, 26 punch combos, 15 grab, 10 each for knife, gun, club, and 10 forms (5 pinan 5 kata). That's to 1st degree anyway, more kata after that...

So there are a lot of combos we don't do.

But I like reading about the ones we don't have, it's a good opportunity for learning.  "what is the principle(s) taught here, do we get the same in something else that we still do?"  Usually yes, but I don't know about jumping scissor kick, not sure that is anywhere in our curriculuum.  Which I am grateful for, being 41 and all LOL


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> Our version of SKK is fairly trimmed down, 26 punch combos, 15 grab, 10 each for knife, gun, club, and 10 forms (5 pinan 5 kata). That's to 1st degree anyway, more kata after that...
> 
> So there are a lot of combos we don't do.


 
Where I *was*, to Black Belt, there are: 
*- Combo/DMs:* 22 (1-20, 26)
*- Forms:* 14 (Pinan 1-5, Kata 1-6, Stature of the Crane, 2-Man Fist Set Northern and Southern)
*- Punch Techniques/Kempos:* 30
*- Weapon Defense/Grabs/Locks:* 35+ (5 stab/5 slash/5 back slash knives, 10 overhead/5 side/5 back clubs, various grabs and locks)



DavidCC said:


> But I like reading about the ones we don't have, it's a good opportunity for learning. "what is the principle(s) taught here, do we get the same in something else that we still do?" Usually yes, but I don't know about jumping scissor kick, not sure that is anywhere in our curriculuum. Which I am grateful for, being 41 and all LOL


 
I'm 47+ and I can do the scissor kick, however, I'm not too sure the back kick portion of that scissor kick is there anymore ... LOL ... but I do know the front kick portion finds it's target more times than not. So, you can do it!


----------



## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> anyone still intertested in moving on to the next combo?
> 
> marlon


 
Yes, let's move on ...


----------



## Jdokan

14 Kempo said:


> Yes, let's move on ...


Are we working backwards?


----------



## 14 Kempo

Jdokan said:


> Are we working backwards?


 
As far as I can tell, we're at #36 ... that's fine, or pick one. I didn't look back very far, but I don't remember seeing the late 20's. I think it jumped forward.


----------



## 14 Kempo

This is a tough one to write up, but here goes ... 

#36 -- (USSD, San Diego version)
- Fade back, left cat stance, upward cross block (right over left)
- Step out with left, deliver left dropping palm strike to the armpit, ribcage area, while right hand traps
- Left rises back up the arm to trap, right glancing palm to ribs, right glancing backfist to kidney
- Right leg swings through as right arm pulls back, hock opponents right leg while striking with right tiger's mouth to throat
- Right heel kick to opponents right ribcage
- Right axe kick to opponents left ribcage
- Step down on other side of opponent with right foot, kneel on ribcage with left knee
- Jump towards opponents head, turning 90d CW, landing with feet on sides of head
- Grasp opponents jaw, pulling chin up
- Deliver immortal man strikes to eyes

This is one that I can't see myself doing in a street altercation, other than the hock down, or dropping a knee on an opponent. I can't wait to go over this one with my new instructor to see the differences and applications that he applies.


----------



## kidswarrior

14 Kempo said:


> I'm 47+ and I can do the scissor kick, however, I'm not too sure the back kick portion of that scissor kick is there anymore ... LOL ... but I do know the front kick portion finds it's target more times than not. So, you can do it!



I'll be 56 next month, and even I can do it (where I learned it, we called it the steeping stool kick, tho). This is the only kick I teach that has both feet leaving the ground, and that's only as a finishing blow and/or for adjustment to a safer distance. In all fairness, when I first saw it I thought it was ridiculous for the street. Now, I'd use it in right circumstances.

I'm enjoying the thread, even tho I'm not really qualified to add much. So I hope you keep it up, guys and girls. :ultracool


----------



## LawDog

Kidswarrior,
I'm glad to see that there is someone else on this forum who is also a half centurian plus.
iratesku

I know off topic.
:rules:


----------



## Jdokan

14 Kempo said:


> This is a tough one to write up, but here goes ...
> 
> #36 -- (USSD, San Diego version)
> - Fade back, left cat stance, upward cross block (right over left)
> - Step out with left, deliver left dropping palm strike to the armpit, ribcage area, while right hand traps
> - Left rises back up the arm to trap, right glancing palm to ribs, right glancing backfist to kidney
> - Right leg swings through as right arm pulls back, hock opponents right leg while striking with right tiger's mouth to throat
> - Right heel kick to opponents right ribcage
> - Right axe kick to opponents left ribcage
> - Step down on other side of opponent with right foot, kneel on ribcage with left knee
> - Jump towards opponents head, turning 90d CW, landing with feet on sides of head
> - Grasp opponents jaw, pulling chin up
> - Deliver immortal man strikes to eyes
> 
> This is one that I can't see myself doing in a street altercation, other than the hock down, or dropping a knee on an opponent. I can't wait to go over this one with my new instructor to see the differences and applications that he applies.


Very similar to what I have..
My block usesa righr #1 ridge hand block with a left trapping monkey hand, step in and strikes same except for third strike we use chickenwrist to ribs opposed to backfist kidney, take uses whipping downward ridgehand,on the kneeling strike we deliver simulataneous palms to head and body, after the jump we strike with claws to face raking the face/immortals ending with a right foot cresent kick to the head/snapping the neck...


----------



## Jdokan

LawDog said:


> Kidswarrior,
> I'm glad to see that there is someone else on this forum who is also a half centurian plus.
> iratesku
> 
> I know off topic.
> :rules:


 
You're not alone!!!!!


----------



## RevIV

kidswarrior said:


> I'll be 56 next month, and even I can do it (where I learned it, we called it the steeping stool kick, tho). This is the only kick I teach that has both feet leaving the ground, and that's only as a finishing blow and/or for adjustment to a safer distance. In all fairness, when I first saw it I thought it was ridiculous for the street. Now, I'd use it in right circumstances.
> 
> I'm enjoying the thread, even tho I'm not really qualified to add much. So I hope you keep it up, guys and girls. :ultracool


 

stepping stool kick is different than a scissors kick.  Some may use age others just abilities but the best part is, that its about Kempo and it changes to the ability of the person doing the technique.  Some of my students can do the scissors, some just do a jumping front kick, some do the stepping stool kick, where others do a front ball kick with right then a back kick with left because if they were to jump they would never get back up from their fall..  
Combo #36-- I also have it with the ridgehand.  one thing to point out on this tech. when doing the second kick (axe to ribs)  you should be trying to get his chest locked in between your right calf and left shin (person is lying on back)  this way when you crush down with your left knee, his chest has no where to expand to hopefully breaking their sternum
Jesse


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## Jdokan

#37:
double downward palm blocks left the his wrist, right to his upper forearm...simultaneous strikes circling inward :left inverted palm to his right jaw, right whipping ridge/cranes wing strike to his left side neck...attempting to break his neck.circling behind him (CW)your right hand rakes up his face as you step to his left side creating an opening for him to fall backwards, as he falls past you strike his throat with a downward left sword hand...


----------



## MeatWad2

Jdokan said:


> #37:
> double downward palm blocks left the his wrist, right to his upper forearm...simultaneous strikes circling inward :left inverted palm to his right jaw, right whipping ridge/cranes wing strike to his left side neck...attempting to break his neck.circling behind him (CW)your right hand rakes up his face as you step to his left side creating an opening for him to fall backwards, as he falls past you strike his throat with a downward left sword hand...


 
USSD 37:

Left downward palm block to the wrist, right downward palm strike to the radial nerve.  Left palm to the temple, right ridge hand to the temple, almost simulatneously...the left hand gets there a split second before the right.

I've seen a different version with the same beginning, but both strikes are ridge hand strikes to the temple.


----------



## 14 Kempo

MeatWad2 said:


> USSD 37:
> 
> Left downward palm block to the wrist, right downward palm strike to the radial nerve. Left palm to the temple, right ridge hand to the temple, almost simulatneously...the left hand gets there a split second before the right.
> 
> I've seen a different version with the same beginning, but both strikes are ridge hand strikes to the temple.


 
I have the same ... 



Jdokan said:


> #37:
> double downward palm blocks left the his wrist, right to his upper forearm...simultaneous strikes circling inward :left inverted palm to his right jaw, right whipping ridge/cranes wing strike to his left side neck...attempting to break his neck.circling behind him (CW)your right hand rakes up his face as you step to his left side creating an opening for him to fall backwards, as he falls past you strike his throat with a downward left sword hand...


 
Wow, now that is different.


----------



## Jdokan

14 Kempo said:


> I have the same ...
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, now that is different.


 
This is my third version of it..
Originally, I was given the head strikes as palm/ridge hands to the temples...keeping the distance the last strike was a right hook to his left kidney then a hawk down ripping whatever was in your hands...
The second variation was only on the ending..
As you get behind him your left arm creates a cradle ( he ends up in the crook of your arm) for his head to rest in as you rip his face (drawing the bow) you press him with your left hand attempting to strike his neck with a knife hand....I had problems with my left shoulder trying to re-direct his balance/body weight back in the opposite direction.  That is when this last version came to be....


----------



## 14 Kempo

Jdokan said:


> This is my third version of it..
> Originally, I was given the head strikes as palm/ridge hands to the temples...keeping the distance the last strike was a right hook to his left kidney then a hawk down ripping whatever was in your hands...
> The second variation was only on the ending..
> As you get behind him your left arm creates a cradle ( he ends up in the crook of your arm) for his head to rest in as you rip his face (drawing the bow) you press him with your left hand attempting to strike his neck with a knife hand....I had problems with my left shoulder trying to re-direct his balance/body weight back in the opposite direction. That is when this last version came to be....


 
Hope you didn't get the idea that I was doubting you. Just way different and brings so many thoughts into my head. That's why I like this type of thread so much. I try to break down the techniques to understand how they do or don't work and how I can make them work for me. This is good stuff.


----------



## marlon

ok another version:  Lt dropping knife close to the wrist, then a rt dropping knife on the forearm close to the elbow (the strike is drawn in towards your centre). then left ridge hand to the temple and simultaneous rt ridge hand to the (lt side) of the neck.  the lt hand rotates cw raking the face and the rt hand rolls into a trigger finger strike to the temple 9rt side)step cw with the rt leg behind the attacker (keeping contact back to back now) as the lt hand comes up under the chin and thje rt hand from the other side to then pull the attacker by the under jaw (new word i think)/ head backwards over the left shoulder for a throw

marlon


----------



## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> ok another version: Lt dropping knife close to the wrist, then a rt dropping knife on the forearm close to the elbow (the strike is drawn in towards your centre). then left ridge hand to the temple and simultaneous rt ridge hand to the (lt side) of the neck. the lt hand rotates cw raking the face and the rt hand rolls into a trigger finger strike to the temple 9rt side)step cw with the rt leg behind the attacker (keeping contact back to back now) as the lt hand comes up under the chin and thje rt hand from the other side to then pull the attacker by the under jaw (new word i think)/ head backwards over the left shoulder for a throw
> 
> marlon


 
Gees, I'm gonna have to print this stuff out and see if I can get through it ... Although I'm pretty good with visualization, I can't get this stuff working in my head ... LOL ... I'll see if I can get through it physically.


----------



## RevIV

Jdokan said:


> #37:
> double downward palm blocks left the his wrist, right to his upper forearm...simultaneous strikes circling inward :left inverted palm to his right jaw, right whipping ridge/cranes wing strike to his left side neck...attempting to break his neck.circling behind him (CW)your right hand rakes up his face as you step to his left side creating an opening for him to fall backwards, as he falls past you strike his throat with a downward left sword hand...


 
Going to say the beginning of this is almost identical to mine, but after the attempted neck break I rake the face LT hand, RT backfist to the face (this is the ending i've use and had been taught up to about 2 years ago.)  Through Prof. I. he taught a continued ending from the back fist.  After punch continue RT hand behind persons head and spin them around putting the back of their neck on your right should///snap.  It is just so interesting how each instructor was taught something different or has added their own thing. Evolution at hand.
Jesse


----------



## SK101

DM # 36

   The 1st palm is a whipping palm snapping from the chicken wrist block into the armpit. There is no block that gives more energy to a whipping palm then a chicken wrist block. They are exact opposites of each other so there is more chamber than if it were performed from another block.

   The right shuto then right chicken wrist to kidney is a internal organ shift. By hitting the lower ribs from the front the kidney shifts backwards and then is hit from the opposite direction. 

   Does anyone have an extra reason for the immortal mans to the eyes after the jaw dehinge or is it just economy of motion deciding the strike?


----------



## SK101

DM #37

   I have the short USSD version of this rather than the longer Professor I version. Left palm block followed by whipping palm to radial bringing the opponent down. Left palm to temple followed by right ridge to opposite temple. 

   You are trying to time the brain shift. The ridge wants to hit as the brain slides to the opponents left side and the fluids around the brain are on the other 3 walls of the skull. 

   I have heard this DM called the brain scrambler as well as the Milk shake.


----------



## SK101

DM # 38 -

   Step into left bow and arrow stance with right palm block and left back punch to solar plexus. Pivot cw into left side horse stance with right back hand to nose then left palm to nose. Spin cw 270* into right half moon with right back fist to heart then left palm to heart. 

   Time your heart strikes to go in between the heart beats to make the heart flutter. If anyone knows how to time this please let me know. 

   At intermediate to higher ranks curl the 4 fingers like an upward leopard paw when performing palm strikes. This tenses the heel and knife edge of the hand. Early on it is safer to keep the fingers pointed so you don't accidently curl the fingers while palm blocking a kick.


----------



## SK101

I would like to see a new thread called SKK Forms where we take small sections of the forms and go over application and concepts of the forms starting from Pinan 1(Pinion 1) and working our way up. 

  Is there someone who knows how to start a thread who would like to start that thread?


----------



## Jdokan

SK101 said:


> DM # 38 -
> 
> Step into left bow and arrow stance with right palm block and left back punch to solar plexus. Pivot cw into left side horse stance with right back hand to nose then left palm to nose. Spin cw 270* into right half moon with right back fist to heart then left palm to heart.
> 
> Time your heart strikes to go in between the heart beats to make the heart flutter. If anyone knows how to time this please let me know.
> 
> At intermediate to higher ranks curl the 4 fingers like an upward leopard paw when performing palm strikes. This tenses the heel and knife edge of the hand. Early on it is safer to keep the fingers pointed so you don't accidently curl the fingers while palm blocking a kick.


Not sure if your B&A stance is my twist stance...but sounds the same....I step left foot forward into a twist stance, same palm block, I strike the backfist to right side of face to turn the head/ the palm follows quickly to catch the jawline snapping the neck the ending is the same backfist/bloodpalm to the heart...


----------



## 14 Kempo

Some of this may just be a difference in terms, but here's mine ... 

#38
- Left foot moves into twist stance, while right #3 palm block and left back two knuckle punch to solar plexus
- Right back hand strike to nose, left palm strike to face as you spin CW 360d
- Deliver right backfist to heart, left palm strike to heart.


----------



## RevIV

Jdokan said:


> Not sure if your B&A stance is my twist stance...but sounds the same....I step left foot forward into a twist stance, same palm block, I strike the backfist to right side of face to turn the head/ the palm follows quickly to catch the jawline snapping the neck the ending is the same backfist/bloodpalm to the heart...


 

I am going to have to say your explanation of Combo's are the closest relation to my combo's.  We must not be to far off the same tree around here.  
Jesse


----------



## Jdokan

#39:
         #4 block spinning 360 striking with a whipping backfist (right hand)to their face, left/right backpunch to their midsection, right roundhouse elbow to their face,left thrust punch to the midsection, right backfist to the face....footwork moves as needed...


----------



## 14 Kempo

This one is a bit different as well ... 

#39
- Right foot pivots back to horst stance facing 0300
- Downward left knifehand block
- turn CW 270d to right foot forward halfmoon stance, right swordhand strike to the neck
- Cannon fist (double thrust punch) to solar plexus/ribcage area
- Right wing to jaw
- Simultaneous right backfist to nose, left palm to solar plexus


----------



## MeatWad2

14 Kempo said:


> This one is a bit different as well ...
> 
> #39
> - Right foot pivots back to horst stance facing 0300
> - Downward left knifehand block
> - turn CW 270d to right foot forward halfmoon stance, right swordhand strike to the neck
> - Cannon fist (double thrust punch) to solar plexus/ribcage area
> - Right wing to jaw
> - Simultaneous right backfist to nose, left palm to solar plexus


 
I almost have that the same way except my first strike is a glancing crosshand shuto and my backfist is to the temple and not the nose because of where the body is positioned.


----------



## RevIV

14 Kempo said:


> This one is a bit different as well ...
> 
> #39
> - Right foot pivots back to horst stance facing 0300
> - Downward left knifehand block
> - turn CW 270d to right foot forward halfmoon stance, right swordhand strike to the neck
> - Cannon fist (double thrust punch) to solar plexus/ribcage area
> - Right wing to jaw
> - Simultaneous right backfist to nose, left palm to solar plexus


very close to mine.  After downward block the palm rises back and hits jaw before spin (my opening footwork is different)  Then hammer to throat instead of knife hand for me.


----------



## 14 Kempo

RevIV said:


> very close to mine. After downward block the palm rises back and hits jaw before spin (my opening footwork is different) Then hammer to throat instead of knife hand for me.


 
I like the idea of a 'stun' strike in the beginning and I have modified what I do to include just that. I never like a technique that takes so long to strike, just doesn't seem real. Granted the block on the opponent's right would be effective, but what's following, the opponent's left hand and I'm spinning a total of 360d and coming right towards the left hand ... hmmm ... but that's how it was taught to me.


----------



## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> I like the idea of a 'stun' strike in the beginning and I have modified what I do to include just that. I never like a technique that takes so long to strike, just doesn't seem real. Granted the block on the opponent's right would be effective, but what's following, the opponent's left hand and I'm spinning a total of 360d and coming right towards the left hand ... hmmm ... but that's how it was taught to me.



   I hear you on that. I had a hard time with that too. Maybe your pulling or guiding the opponent forward and actually hitting them while there still extending the right punch or maybe you could be retreating instead of moving forward with the sword hand using the sword like a spinning back fist to keep the opponent from closing the gap when you retreat (tactically reposition as some people call it). 

   There is a technique in Northern Tiger where the opponent grabs you with same side wrist grab so you spin pulling your arm behind your back moving the opponent close to you then you perform a back fist with the hand that isn't held followed by a crescent kick. If the opponent holds on, which the technique is designed for there shoulder is turned the wrong way to throw the left punch. 39 would probably work about the same off of that grab. The block really seems nice for a front ball kick, perhaps you hook the foot a little and pull the leg forward so they fall into the sword hand. Perhaps a rear double throat choke and you start right from the sword hand with the strikes mainly hitting the back area instead of the front. 

    Professor I has a very different version of this DM. I have only had his interpretation for a short time so hopefully someone else can post it with more details than I have right now.


----------



## SK101

Jdokan said:


> Not sure if your B&A stance is my twist stance...but sounds the same....I step left foot forward into a twist stance, same palm block, I strike the backfist to right side of face to turn the head/ the palm follows quickly to catch the jawline snapping the neck the ending is the same backfist/bloodpalm to the heart...



Bow & Arrow for us is a cat stance with a straight leg. Master Taylor had described the use of this stance in the DM as lining up your skelton with the back punch. At the time he worked with me on this detail it was way over my head and may still be. 

Twist stance for us is front leg with toes toward 12:00. Back leg is on the ball of the foot with the knee just off the ground and just behind the front foot. The heel of the back foot is facing 9:00.


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## SK101

Any thoughts on starting a form thread to go over application one section at a time through the forms?


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## SK101

DavidCC said:


> As for the second punch, that's not really the "ideal phase" (to borrow a concept from AK), but it can be addressed.
> 
> I've found that a bigger problem than the left punch is the forward movement of the attacker as they deliver the punch. Your step back in response to his right is going to entice him, if he is inclined to throw the left, to move forward as he throws it. So now you and he are both trying to move forward into the same space. You should be in control of his right shoulder by now... any takes on that?
> 
> -D



   I am just going back and reviewing. I hope I don't double respond. Sorry if I do. 

   On DM #1 I look at the right chicken wrist as the control of the left punch. If your not 100% sure you have enough time to do the tiger claw chicken wrist before the left punch I would just wrap and chicken wrist while hiding your head in front of the opponents right shoulder. 

   A general rule of the thumb is the left punch comes as soon as you stop the energy of the right punch. The more deflecting the block the more time you have.


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## marlon

My 39 is from Prof I and is different:  lt downward and slightly outward palm block as the left leg steps towards uke's center with a quick willow palm to the temple followed with a left elbow to the jaw then spin cw with a rt elbow to the neck (the left leg displaces towards 5:45 to help the spin)the rt elbow strike evolves into a rt dropping backfist to the rt cheek the continued cw motion carries you into a rt forawrd stance with a left front 2 knuckle to the plexus that flows into a left wounded tiger strike to the jawthen a left dropping back fist to the left cheek finish with a right palm to the left ribs.

respectfully,
marlon


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## Jdokan

SK101 said:


> Bow & Arrow for us is a cat stance with a straight leg. Master Taylor had described the use of this stance in the DM as lining up your skelton with the back punch. At the time he worked with me on this detail it was way over my head and may still be.
> 
> Twist stance for us is front leg with toes toward 12:00. Back leg is on the ball of the foot with the knee just off the ground and just behind the front foot. The heel of the back foot is facing 9:00.


Gotcha...
our twist is the same...180 out of the cat....we always referred to them as "sister" footworks...why that term I can't tell you.  I sure somebody out there has background on our vernacular....


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## marlon

SK101 said:


> Bow & Arrow for us is a cat stance with a straight leg. Master Taylor had described the use of this stance in the DM as lining up your skelton with the back punch. At the time he worked with me on this detail it was way over my head and may still be.
> 
> Twist stance for us is front leg with toes toward 12:00. Back leg is on the ball of the foot with the knee just off the ground and just behind the front foot. The heel of the back foot is facing 9:00.


 



wouldn't you need your skeletal system properly lined up in all of your stances whether striking or not?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Jdokan

marlon said:


> wouldn't you need your skeletal system properly lined up in all of your stances whether striking or not?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


Great Point!!
      The body posture/alignment is  a subject that can be discussed in detail I think.... I have "discussed" this in length with my peers and would like opinions...Placement of the feet are critical (I think).
Example:  The rear foot should be in alignment with the direction of your strike/block....Facing 12:00 blocking a kick from the same direction....the forward foot should be at a 45 degree angle the rear knee pressed against the forwards calf muscle for support and the rear foot on the toes at the 6:00 position...Now there are always exceptions and in some of our forms we do alter that...think of any???


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## kosho

*The body posture/alignment is a subject that can be discussed in detail I think.... I have "discussed" this in length with my peers and would like opinions...Placement of the feet are critical (I think).*

*Yess 100% correct.

Your feet are connected to your hands. 
Your elbows are connected to your knees. 
your shoulders are conected to your hips.

By shifting your feet the power changes is your hands. 
When doing all kempos or combinations. if your not hitting from center. 
you are looseing power and if your feet are not moving with your hands. then you are not hitting with full power. 

Hopfully this makes sense. 
Kosho
*


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## Jdokan

#40:
     Step left to 10:00, #4 block to a 4:00 verticle position (clock on the wall)knocking their hand downward, r/hand rolling bfist to the temple/eyesocket w/r blade stomp to their forward knee, r/hand inverted hammer to their r/kidney as the l/hand leopard pinch grabs their r/shoulder pulling them into a r/single trigger to the neck ( behind the jugular not sure if there is a named zone for this area).


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## 14 Kempo

Jdokan said:


> #40:
> Step left to 10:00, #4 block to a 4:00 verticle position (clock on the wall)knocking their hand downward, r/hand rolling bfist to the temple/eyesocket w/r blade stomp to their forward knee, r/hand inverted hammer to their r/kidney as the l/hand leopard pinch grabs their r/shoulder pulling them into a r/single trigger to the neck ( behind the jugular not sure if there is a named zone for this area).


 
Sounds close ... 

#40
- Step to 10:00, left hammerfist to radial, right rolling back fist to temple
- Simultaneous right blade or side kick to knee, right hammerfist to kidney
- Step down with right foot, about 03:00, right backfist to base of skull


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## marlon

kosho said:


> *The body posture/alignment is a subject that can be discussed in detail I think.... I have "discussed" this in length with my peers and would like opinions...Placement of the feet are critical (I think).*
> 
> *Yess 100% correct.*
> 
> *Your feet are connected to your hands. *
> *Your elbows are connected to your knees. *
> *your shoulders are conected to your hips.*
> 
> *By shifting your feet the power changes is your hands. *
> *When doing all kempos or combinations. if your not hitting from center. *
> *you are looseing power and if your feet are not moving with your hands. then you are not hitting with full power. *
> 
> *Hopfully this makes sense. *
> *Kosho*


 
to generate true power it must come from the waist.  the feet position is a trick to teach waist alignment but power is not dependant on the direction your toes are pointing.  extension may be but not power.  Without proper alignment of the spine...your kung fu is no good.....please no discussion of the kung fu or lack thereof connection and sk...not important

respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

14 Kempo said:


> Sounds close ...
> 
> #40
> - Step to 10:00, left hammerfist to radial, right rolling back fist to temple
> - Simultaneous right blade or side kick to knee, right hammerfist to kidney
> - Step down with right foot, about 03:00, right backfist to base of skull


 

40
hop to 10:30 on to the lt leg in a crane stance with a lt palm to the arm above the elbow (structural rooting and manipulation of the opponents skeletal structure with the palm important) and a thrust to the temple
rt blade kick to the knee
rt hammer to the kidney
lt hand check or palm to the spine
rt cross hammer to the occiput...your weight should shift forwards with each hand strike
marlon


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## kosho

to generate true power it must come from the waist. the feet position is a trick to teach waist alignment but power is not dependant on the direction your toes are pointing. extension may be but not power. Without proper alignment of the spine...your kung fu is no good.....please no discussion of the kung fu or lack thereof connection and sk...not important

respectfully,
Marlon
__________________

Marlon,
            I am going to have to disagree with you. True power comes from your feet. Yes your hips help but in rotation movement only. 
The feet and hands from center and being rooted ( kidney #1 ) If this is not engaged then you have no power or true power. 
Yes hitting with the hip brings power, but not true power. 
we can go back and forth with this. Next time we get together I will show you what I mean...Maybe I am also not explanning it well also. Maybe if Master Evans logs in and reads this he will give light to what I mean. 
RESPCTFULLY<
            Kosho


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## marlon

kosho said:


> to generate true power it must come from the waist. the feet position is a trick to teach waist alignment but power is not dependant on the direction your toes are pointing. extension may be but not power. Without proper alignment of the spine...your kung fu is no good.....please no discussion of the kung fu or lack thereof connection and sk...not important
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon
> __________________
> 
> Marlon,
> I am going to have to disagree with you. True power comes from your feet. Yes your hips help but in rotation movement only.
> The feet and hands from center and being rooted ( kidney #1 ) If this is not engaged then you have no power or true power.
> Yes hitting with the hip brings power, but not true power.
> we can go back and forth with this. Next time we get together I will show you what I mean...Maybe I am also not explanning it well also. Maybe if Master Evans logs in and reads this he will give light to what I mean.
> RESPCTFULLY<
> Kosho


 
Kosho i do not disagree about the root and power but this does not have to do with the direction the toes are pointed in, which was the point i intended to counter.  perhaps i was unclear or am now mis reading your post.

respectfully,
marlon


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## marlon

kosho said:


> *The body posture/alignment is a subject that can be discussed in detail I think.... I have "discussed" this in length with my peers and would like opinions...Placement of the feet are critical (I think).*
> 
> *Yess 100% correct.*
> 
> *Your feet are connected to your hands. *
> *Your elbows are connected to your knees. *
> *your shoulders are conected to your hips.*
> 
> *By shifting your feet the power changes is your hands. *
> *When doing all kempos or combinations. if your not hitting from center. *
> *you are looseing power and if your feet are not moving with your hands. then you are not hitting with full power. *
> 
> *Hopfully this makes sense. *
> *Kosho*


 

i do not think your feet should be moving when you hit
respectfully,
Marlon


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## kosho

Right,
          Your feet are not moving when hitting at that time of the contact, but the feet do need to shift as movment takes place with your hands. 
The hips also come into play when hitting. But yes what  you are saying makes sence also... 
Marlon have a great summer, 
Kosho


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## marlon

you also Kosho

respectfully,
marlon


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## Jdokan

#41:
 As the opponent punches move the centerline balance back ( Cat Stance??  I don't pause here for it I just move right through it)trapping the hand between swords. roll the punch CW pulling the hands to your R/side waist.  At the same the the hands trap/block the punch the L/foot ball kicks the body. As you step down step CW turning to 9:00 trap the punch on your L/side with Monkey Palm applying a wrist lock.  THe R/arm swings downward past your right side striking their arm, breaking the elbow.  R/hand delivers an arcing downward knifehand to the neck followed by a R/Ax kickto the back...head, etc...


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## Jdokan

kosho said:


> Right,
> Your feet are not moving when hitting at that time of the contact, but the feet do need to shift as movment takes place with your hands.
> Kosho


I always agreed with this until the first time I saw Iceman Liddell Knock somebody out...backing up with one foot in motion...Like somebody posted elsewhere...there is always an exception........


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## Jdokan

#41:
    Step outside the punch using a cross palm block/whipping ridge hand to the temple, pull the R/hand to their wrist/driving L/Palm to the face turning the head extending their arm, turn CW trapping the arm with the L/arm (trapping in between the arm and body), continue  to spin striking with a R/elbow to their head, jaw, behind the ear, etc...The R/hand does a downward sword to their neck forcing them to bend over trap their head against your body, R/rising palm to their r/ribs, as the same hand drops to their spine lift the L/leg with a driving knee into their body (again hitting their ribs), the cranes' positioned L/leg now delivers a side to their leg as the L/hand drives a braising palm off the back of their head....cross and cover....


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## MeatWad2

Jdokan said:


> #41:
> Step outside the punch using a cross palm block/whipping ridge hand to the temple, pull the R/hand to their wrist/driving L/Palm to the face turning the head extending their arm, turn CW trapping the arm with the L/arm (trapping in between the arm and body), continue  to spin striking with a R/elbow to their head, jaw, behind the ear, etc...The R/hand does a downward sword to their neck forcing them to bend over trap their head against your body, R/rising palm to their r/ribs, as the same hand drops to their spine lift the L/leg with a driving knee into their body (again hitting their ribs), the cranes' positioned L/leg now delivers a side to their leg as the L/hand drives a braising palm off the back of their head....cross and cover....



this sounds like 42.  I have it a bit differently though.  I don't have a stirke to their head when you spin...I just have it as a redirection.  I have the kick at the end as a scoop kick to the groin and spin out.


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## MeatWad2

Jdokan said:


> #41:
> As the opponent punches move the centerline balance back ( Cat Stance??  I don't pause here for it I just move right through it)trapping the hand between swords. roll the punch CW pulling the hands to your R/side waist.  At the same the the hands trap/block the punch the L/foot ball kicks the body. As you step down step CW turning to 9:00 trap the punch on your L/side with Monkey Palm applying a wrist lock.  THe R/arm swings downward past your right side striking their arm, breaking the elbow.  R/hand delivers an arcing downward knifehand to the neck followed by a R/Ax kickto the back...head, etc...



i have the trap here as two open tigers mouths to the wrist.  I have a right instep kick to the face instead of a ball kick to the body.  I don't have any kick at the end.


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## Jdokan

MeatWad2 said:


> this sounds like 42. I have it a bit differently though. I don't have a stirke to their head when you spin...I just have it as a redirection. I have the kick at the end as a scoop kick to the groin and spin out.


My bad....100% right should have labelled this 42....


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## MeatWad2

Number 43:

Step in with the left foot and use a downward knife block to the wrist.  Turn.  Right Palm strike to the temple, left palm to the ribs.  Turn.  Right palm strike to the back of the neck, left palm strike to the kidneys.  Turn.  Right palm strike to the temple and left palm strike to the ribs.


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## RevIV

MeatWad2 said:


> Number 43:
> 
> Step in with the left foot and use a downward knife block to the wrist. Turn. Right Palm strike to the temple, left palm to the ribs. Turn. Right palm strike to the back of the neck, left palm strike to the kidneys. Turn. Right palm strike to the temple and left palm strike to the ribs.


 
The above is similiar to the way i was taught this technique.  If there was a technique that i truly dislike, this is the one.  I have been shown the technique by at least a half dozen SKK Masters and they have all been different and with all the variations there has not been one that i felt comfortable with.  Sure i have fun jumping through the air with tornado palms, but doing it on a uke,, nope. Excuse my ignorance on this one. It just doesn't seem to sink in for me
Jesse


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## DavidCC

MeatWad2 said:


> Number 43:
> 
> Step in with the left foot and use a downward knife block to the wrist. Turn. Right Palm strike to the temple, left palm to the ribs. Turn. Right palm strike to the back of the neck, left palm strike to the kidneys. Turn. Right palm strike to the temple and left palm strike to the ribs.


 

Do you have any vidoe of anyoen doing this technique?  or maybe you could elaborate on "turn" plz.

-D


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## 14 Kempo

MeatWad2 said:


> Number 43:
> 
> Step in with the left foot and use a downward knife block to the wrist. Turn. Right Palm strike to the temple, left palm to the ribs. Turn. Right palm strike to the back of the neck, left palm strike to the kidneys. Turn. Right palm strike to the temple and left palm strike to the ribs.





RevIV said:


> The above is similiar to the way i was taught this technique. If there was a technique that i truly dislike, this is the one. I have been shown the technique by at least a half dozen SKK Masters and they have all been different and with all the variations there has not been one that i felt comfortable with. Sure i have fun jumping through the air with tornado palms, but doing it on a uke,, nope. Excuse my ignorance on this one. It just doesn't seem to sink in for me
> Jesse


 
I agree with you Mr. Dwire, not something I would ever find myself doing. However, when this happens, I try to find a reason why it might be taught and what I come up with on this particular technique is that I may find myself in a position where I may have just taken a left cross or hook and in moving with the punch I spin away, and continue that spin right into the palm strikes. It teaches me footwork, coordination in spinning while maintaining balance and striking as I complete my movement, simultaneously, using the whole body to strike. It is very doubtful that I would continue spinning around the opponent. 

Anyone else have any thoughts on this technique?


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## 14 Kempo

MeatWad2 said:


> Number 43:
> 
> Step in with the left foot and use a downward knife block to the wrist. Turn. Right Palm strike to the temple, left palm to the ribs. Turn. Right palm strike to the back of the neck, left palm strike to the kidneys. Turn. Right palm strike to the temple and left palm strike to the ribs.





DavidCC said:


> Do you have any vidoe of anyoen doing this technique? or maybe you could elaborate on "turn" plz.
> 
> -D


 
I have seen video on this, but can't locate it at the moment. See if this helps, the turns are CCW 360d turns and there are three of them as you circle your opponent's body.


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## RevIV

14 Kempo said:


> I have seen video on this, but can't locate it at the moment. See if this helps, the turns are CCW 360d turns and there are three of them as you circle your opponent's body.


 

I find that the only way to circle the persons body is if you miss on all the strikes.  every strike hits the person on their left side of the body, so even if they are grazing hits and not full ones, their body should be turning.  This is where i find getting around to their back is almost impossible.  I too, try to find the meanings behind the techniques, but knowing the history of how some of these were created i have trouble believing sometimes that it wasnt just put in by accident at one time then given a #.  
Jesse


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## MeatWad2

I think it might be teaching something that was briefly told to me as a sticky body principle.  I am not sure though because I'm not well versed in it.


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## RevIV

MeatWad2 said:


> I think it might be teaching something that was briefly told to me as a sticky body principle. I am not sure though because I'm not well versed in it.


 
The sticky body principle that i have learned is Chi Sau. sticky hands which in our system means once contact is made the contact continues so to know where your opponent is going to move or do next.
Jesse


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## SK101

DavidCC said:


> Do you have any vidoe of anyoen doing this technique? or maybe you could elaborate on "turn" plz.
> 
> -D


 
Professor Ingargiola has it on his 4th Degree video. 
www.shaolinkempo.com


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## RevIV

SK101 said:


> Professor Ingargiola has it on his 4th Degree video.
> www.shaolinkempo.com


 
Out of all the versions Prof. I's version is the best that i have seen.  And is the version that i teach.
Jesse


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## Jdokan

RevIV said:


> The above is similiar to the way i was taught this technique. If there was a technique that i truly dislike, this is the one. I have been shown the technique by at least a half dozen SKK Masters and they have all been different and with all the variations there has not been one that i felt comfortable with. Sure i have fun jumping through the air with tornado palms, but doing it on a uke,, nope. Excuse my ignorance on this one. It just doesn't seem to sink in for me
> Jesse


Jesse, I'd like to shake your hand on that!!!   This is one technique that I never thought was streetworthy....though "interesting" to do on a training partner.  Granted it helps to improve focus, timing and agility...


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## Jdokan

Here's my version:
Double block...R/palm+L/sword (inside block), continue the R/hand circling motion and strike R/palm to the temple as you start the first CCW spin of 180...land (still in front of them) back to man driving a L/rear elbow to his floating ribs, Start your second spin CCW, R/hand braising palm to back of head, start next spin CCW another driving elbow with the L to the their L/kidney, One last CCW (now directly behind them facing them) striking with a R/upwards driving palm to the spine....


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## MeatWad2

#44

Left foot is forward.  Left hand does a 4 block with a simultaneous thrust punch with the right hand, to the rib.  Parry with the left hand, right backfist to the temple.  Left thrust punch to the ribs, left crosshand shuto to the throat.  Use the left hand to help with the left foot sweep.  Spin thru so that way you land with your left foot in a kneeling stand.  Right elbow to the ribs and right backfist to the temple.


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## Jdokan

My 44 uses the left foot forward also though the block is a #3 with thrust punch...Timing here on the block is critical or you"ll walk into the punch....First strike is off the r/hand: backfist face followed by rolling backfists L/R/L The last one becomes ready for the crosshand sword to the throat as the L/foot sweeps the leg, we step back followinig them to the ground as they fall delivering a crushing R/elbow to the sternum followed by the same hand snapping a backfist to the side of their face.


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## MeatWad2

Jdokan said:


> My 44 uses the left foot forward also though the block is a #3 with thrust punch...Timing here on the block is critical or you"ll walk into the punch....First strike is off the r/hand: backfist face followed by rolling backfists L/R/L The last one becomes ready for the crosshand sword to the throat as the L/foot sweeps the leg, we step back followinig them to the ground as they fall delivering a crushing R/elbow to the sternum followed by the same hand snapping a backfist to the side of their face.


 
This is mind boggling to me...how do you do this?  It seems that with the left foot forward the logical block would be a 4 block.  You're on the outside of the punch with the left leg checking their right knee.  The other way with a 3 block is mind boggling.  Is this punch getting redirected into you?  You're still on the outside of their leg, right?


----------



## Jdokan

yes still on the outside....you have to have a very fast block...This is a technique that ensures you have control of the punch before moving for the strike.  Try it... As far as foot placement, realistically once you start striking him he's going to react with his footwork.  I try to ensure I follow up with my footwrk to ensure I can make the techniques work...


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## Jdokan

#45:
Step L/foot 10:30, L/crossing palm block, R/inverted palm to temple. Left side palm to their R/kidney/side of ribs, R/snap heel kick to knee joint (return the foot to a R/rearfoot position) buckling them ccw 90d. Deliver a Spinning R/back kick to their spine. Spin out on guard...


----------



## MeatWad2

Jdokan said:


> #45:
> Step L/foot 10:30, L/crossing palm block, R/inverted palm to temple. Left side palm to their R/kidney/side of ribs, R/snap heel kick to knee joint (return the foot to a R/rearfoot position) buckling them ccw 90d. Deliver a Spinning R/back kick to their spine. Spin out on guard...


 
That doesn't sound like my 45 at all.  I have 45 coming in off a left handed punch.  Step in with the left foot to the outside of their stance while doing a left downward knife block.  As you step with the right foot, you execute a simultaneous right crosshand shuto the the side of the neck and a left thrust punch to the ribs (you should be in a horse stance facing them.)  Step in with the left foot so you are behind them now, in a horse stance facing away from them, and do a right rear elbow strike to the kidney.  Bring the right foot around so you are now in a half moon stance on the opponents right rear side.  Do a left palm strike to the back of the head, and follow with left leg sweep (the left hand comes back to help with the sweep).  Turn around so you are in a right half moon stance facing the opponent's downed body.  Left glancing kick to bring your foot to their head.  Turn.  Kneel on the 3rd eye with the left knee while you do a simultaneous left butterfly palm to the solar plexus and a thrust punch to the groin.


----------



## Jdokan

MeatWad2 said:


> That doesn't sound like my 45 at all. I have 45 coming in off a left handed punch. Step in with the left foot to the outside of their stance while doing a left downward knife block. As you step with the right foot, you execute a simultaneous right crosshand shuto the the side of the neck and a left thrust punch to the ribs (you should be in a horse stance facing them.) Step in with the left foot so you are behind them now, in a horse stance facing away from them, and do a right rear elbow strike to the kidney. Bring the right foot around so you are now in a half moon stance on the opponents right rear side. Do a left palm strike to the back of the head, and follow with left leg sweep (the left hand comes back to help with the sweep). Turn around so you are in a right half moon stance facing the opponent's downed body. Left glancing kick to bring your foot to their head. Turn. Kneel on the 3rd eye with the left knee while you do a simultaneous left butterfly palm to the solar plexus and a thrust punch to the groin.


Cool...I have retained only 1-45 all as right punch defensives...at one time I had a few of the nineties and a couple others I don't remember....

Interesting technique you have there....I'll going to work on it...


----------



## dpkempo

I have a different version of #45. 
Defense against a right punch. Left foot steps to the outside towards 10:00 as you do a left open handed inside block. Right hand outside block with the palm up and rake your opponents eyes with your fingers. (Fan block or Windmill ). Right roundhouse kick to the inside of your opponents leg and step towards 12:00, as you land deliver a right elbow to the ribs.( you are on th eoutside of your opponents with both legs at this time.) Bring your left foot passed your right as you turn ccw and deliver a left elbow to the face and a right thrust punch to the ribs. Right foot steps behind opponent towards 2:00, with your back to your opponent deliver a left elbow to the kidneys. Snake your left arm under your opponents left armpit and tigers mouth to the throat. Drop to your right knee, opponent falls over your left leg. Trapping his left leg on top of yours you deliver a left punch and right palm to the groin simultaneously.
I believe that combos 45-50 were taught from the left side. I practice and teach all my combos on both sides.


----------



## Jdokan

I practice and teach all my combos on both sides.[/quote]
Nice technique!!!
I also practice mine on both sides....for me 1 thru 45 were taught as right handed techniques....In fact none of those I learned were taught primarily as left handed....It wasn't until I read some of Matt Barnes page did I realize there were techniques taught specifically as left handed defenses...


----------



## MeatWad2

dpkempo said:


> I have a different version of #45.
> Defense against a right punch. Left foot steps to the outside towards 10:00 as you do a left open handed inside block. Right hand outside block with the palm up and rake your opponents eyes with your fingers. (Fan block or Windmill ). Right roundhouse kick to the inside of your opponents leg and step towards 12:00, as you land deliver a right elbow to the ribs.( you are on th eoutside of your opponents with both legs at this time.) Bring your left foot passed your right as you turn ccw and deliver a left elbow to the face and a right thrust punch to the ribs. Right foot steps behind opponent towards 2:00, with your back to your opponent deliver a left elbow to the kidneys. Snake your left arm under your opponents left armpit and tigers mouth to the throat. Drop to your right knee, opponent falls over your left leg. Trapping his left leg on top of yours you deliver a left punch and right palm to the groin simultaneously.
> I believe that combos 45-50 were taught from the left side. I practice and teach all my combos on both sides.


 
That one sounds pretty interesting.  I know for a fact that 45-50 are taught against left handed attacks.


----------



## 14 Kempo

Jdokan said:


> I also practice mine on both sides....for me 1 thru 45 were taught as right handed techniques....In fact none of those I learned were taught primarily as left handed....It wasn't until I read some of Matt Barnes page did I realize there were techniques taught specifically as left handed defenses...


 
I can't speak for others, but in my style, 45-50 are taught as a left-handed punchs defended from a right-handed stance. We call this an open stance my left foot is closest to their right foot when we start. All others techniques are from a closed stance, with a right-handed punch defended from a right-handed stance. All techniques, combinations, defensive manuvers, kempos, punch techniques, knives, clubs, forms, whatever are done both right and left-handed, once at an advanced rank.


----------



## Jdokan

14 Kempo said:


> I can't speak for others, but in my style, 45-50 are taught as a left-handed punchs defended from a right-handed stance. We call this an open stance my left foot is closest to their right foot when we start. All others techniques are from a closed stance, with a right-handed punch defended from a right-handed stance. All techniques, combinations, defensive manuvers, kempos, punch techniques, knives, clubs, forms, whatever are done both right and left-handed, once at an advanced rank.


Other than the higher numbers 90+ (supposedly Villari's 108 movements) I have only been taught 1-45 and in my Instructors Dojo they were all defenses against a right punch (as initially taught...but again we are expect to practice both sides). We were originally taught all our defenses from the horse stance, it wasn't until we got higher rank did that start to change to a left foot forward 1/2 moon stance...
Currently, in my Dojo I train from each stance: L&R/F 1/2 moon, horse stance and a non-traditional street upright standing (lack of name) casual non-threatening stance...I also have my uke punch from a traditional 1/2 moon in throwing an overhand/hooking punch, then I have them in a R/foot forward R/hand jab speed punch...


----------



## DavidCC

I am so glad we only have 26   so many of these higher numbers sound pretty "cool" but I have to wonder if they really add anything substantial (other than months of contract enrollment???)


----------



## 14 Kempo

Jdokan said:


> Other than the higher numbers 90+ (supposedly Villari's 108 movements) I have only been taught 1-45 and in my Instructors Dojo they were all defenses against a right punch (as initially taught...but again we are expect to practice both sides). We were originally taught all our defenses from the horse stance, it wasn't until we got higher rank did that start to change to a left foot forward 1/2 moon stance...
> Currently, in my Dojo I train from each stance: L&R/F 1/2 moon, horse stance and a non-traditional street upright standing (lack of name) casual non-threatening stance...I also have my uke punch from a traditional 1/2 moon in throwing an overhand/hooking punch, then I have them in a R/foot forward R/hand jab speed punch...


 
That's great. One of the things my new instructor asks of us, is to do every technique from every conceivable angle and attack to see what works and doesn't. I have yet to put in the time to do that, but it's a great way to do things. Sounds like you're doing a lot of that with your training, I applaud that.


----------



## Jdokan

14 Kempo said:


> That's great. One of the things my new instructor asks of us, is to do every technique from every conceivable angle and attack to see what works and doesn't. I have yet to put in the time to do that, but it's a great way to do things. Sounds like you're doing a lot of that with your training, I applaud that.


Thanks! I hope I'm on the right path...I know it can get boring sometimes for my training partners because I like to focus on perfecting my combo's...trying the different angles as you stated you guys do...When you think about all the material we learn over the years: clubs, knives punch techniques etc...I know I won't remember them all...so I try to focus on combinations and forms....to me everything starts from them...If I need a club defense, etc. I look to the combo's and modify the initial block...


----------



## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> I am so glad we only have 26  so many of these higher numbers sound pretty "cool" but I have to wonder if they really add anything substantial (other than months of contract enrollment???)


 
Actually they add a lot of substance to the curriculum.  I do not know if your GM has changed a lot of the combinations but most of the techniques in the lower combo's are repetive principles with different #'s.  if not groups.
6,7,8,9,12,14 kick sets - most from a standing position or with a knife block - combo 19 - just #6 with a add on.  so now we are down to 19 techniques. 
10 + 17 similiar principles.
21 + 26 same (dont get crazy most of you know what i mean)
1 through 5 all teach something different -- great techniques.
11 - one of my favorites
combo 13 is just combo #3 with a belt in your hand (that is if you do it with the belt block Left hand high (#3 block) right hand low - (looks like a punch to me)
15 - different - this technique alone is fun to change around for hours.
16 -- mmm, I like how i do it now more than trying to catch a punch.
18 - different (We do it off of a right kick)
I guess what i am getting at is who wants a person only up till black belt. All that means is that they are really good at basics.  the real knowledge comes later on when it truly sinks into your body.  Plus up to 40 you get to see a lot of what was influenced by Prof. Cerio and his teaching from Prof. Chow.  The foot movements and body positionings after 26 real start making you move in ways you would not think of.  David i am not trying to blast you here just answering your question on wondering if it adds substance.  the higher numbers have hip throws, Small Circle Ju-Jitsu take downs - arm bars and breaks and so much more.  Go to Matt Barnes Page, grab some of the techniques in the 40's and try them out, you will see some substance.  Until then train hard in your combo's because and Grand Master Pesare says -- Give me 26 techniques and i will show you 260 moves.
Jesse


----------



## DavidCC

Thanks, good info... I know some of our combos that are numbered under 26 are not the same as you all have listed... some he made himself (mostly based on NCK Kenpo hands material), some are brought down from the higher numbers.  for example our #18 the attack is a right punch to the body, left hook to the head (does that correspond to any combos you all know of??); our number 8 has no kick: knife hand block, tiger mouth to throat, drop elbow to solar plexus, twist neck for break or takedown.

Also in addition to the 26 "Shaolin Defense maneuvers" we have 15 "Grab Defense maneuvers", 10 knife, 10 club and 10 gun.  So perhaps a lot of them are contained in there??  Also we have a couple of techniques for each "animal"  leopard #1 & #2 etc, tiger 1 & 2 (but these are extra and not in the belt progression charts).  I should probably do some comparisons of our weapon techs vs the SDMs above 26, I bet there's a good deal of overlap there... but I'm too busy right now polishing for my brown belt, got my last requirement checked off recently (pinan 5) and I hope to test for it in August.


----------



## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> Thanks, good info... I know some of our combos that are numbered under 26 are not the same as you all have listed... some he made himself (mostly based on NCK Kenpo hands material), some are brought down from the higher numbers. for example our #18 the attack is a right punch to the body, left hook to the head (does that correspond to any combos you all know of??); our number 8 has no kick: knife hand block, tiger mouth to throat, drop elbow to solar plexus, twist neck for break or takedown.
> 
> Also in addition to the 26 "Shaolin Defense maneuvers" we have 15 "Grab Defense maneuvers", 10 knife, 10 club and 10 gun. So perhaps a lot of them are contained in there?? Also we have a couple of techniques for each "animal" leopard #1 & #2 etc, tiger 1 & 2 (but these are extra and not in the belt progression charts). I should probably do some comparisons of our weapon techs vs the SDMs above 26, I bet there's a good deal of overlap there... but I'm too busy right now polishing for my brown belt, got my last requirement checked off recently (pinan 5) and I hope to test for it in August.


 

Thats awesome -- brown belt test that is --..  Hope all goes well. Going to have to work your combos #8- not sure i understand it.  Dropping an elbow to the solar plexus after a throat strike then doing a backwards takedown -- is that correct?  For a fun comparison check out Heien (sp) Godan to see what the original 5 pinan looked like.
Jesse


----------



## DavidCC

well, I was being brief so I left out a lot 

Let's see if I can explain it better:

HM right forward with left outward knifehand block, simultaneous with right tiger mouth to throat.  

thrust the elbow forward and down into the SP, your right hand should slip upwards past their right ear as they fold forward.  This allows you to pass your right hand over the back of their neck, past their left ear and grab the chin, nose, etc.

with your left slap downards on the back while pulling with the right and stepping abck with right.  It's much more of a neck-break thana take down, but you cna tune it up either way on the fly (slap to right shoulder, pull instead of jerk, step back deeper...)

does that make more sense?


----------



## Jdokan

DavidCC said:


> well, I was being brief so I left out a lot
> your right hand should slip upwards past their right ear as they fold forward. This allows you to pass your right hand over the back of their neck, past their left ear and grab the chin, nose, etc.
> THis is exactly how I perform the my finishing roll on #19....I instead "roll" their body.....When you control the head , you control the body....
> NICE Technique!!!!! I LIKE IT!!!!


----------



## RevIV

Jdokan said:


> DavidCC said:
> 
> 
> 
> well, I was being brief so I left out a lot
> your right hand should slip upwards past their right ear as they fold forward. This allows you to pass your right hand over the back of their neck, past their left ear and grab the chin, nose, etc.
> THis is exactly how I perform the my finishing roll on #19....I instead "roll" their body.....When you control the head , you control the body....
> NICE Technique!!!!! I LIKE IT!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David, i def. like the technique too. Jdokan, my ending move on 19 grabs the belt and just throws them backwards, our scenario is there is a wall behind me and im putting their head through it.
> Jesse
Click to expand...


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## DavidCC

Thanks, it's not one of my favorites, but it does get the job done in a hurry.  Now I have to go back and find the writeup on 19


----------



## Jdokan

RevIV said:


> Jdokan said:
> 
> 
> 
> David, i def. like the technique too. Jdokan, my ending move on 19 grabs the belt and just throws them backwards, our scenario is there is a wall behind me and im putting their head through it.
> Jesse
> 
> 
> 
> I never knew that...I like that..using your environment to your advantage...cool!
Click to expand...


----------



## MeatWad2

Number 46 (against a left handed punch).

Step drag to a left cat stance.  You are on the outside of their punch.  Left hand does a monkey paw block.  Step down with the left foot and do a right hand palm strike to the elbow and then follow up with a right palm strike to the side of the face.  Right hand grabs the hair.  Pull the head down into a right shin kick to the face.  Inside leg reap to the opponent's right leg.  Left leg scuff kick to the groin and land by the opponent's right ear.  Left hand does a tiger rake to the face.  Right hand follows up with an open tiger's mouth to the throat.


----------



## dpkempo

Very similar to the way I do it. Instead of a left scuff kick to the groin I do a right kick to the groin before I land from the inside sweep.  Then a left side kick to the face and land by the opponents right side.  As a bonus strike I do a right crescent kick as I cross and cover after  the tiger's mouth to the throat.
My students love it when I show them the ( as I call it ) Bonus strikes. That is any strike that happens accidently ( on purpose ) along the way to the next movement.


----------



## MeatWad2

LOL.  I used to call it bonus strikes too.


----------



## 14 Kempo

I've also heard some use the term "hidden strikes" ... I call some of them 'freebies'


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## dpkempo

"Freebies" that's a good one also.


----------



## MeatWad2

DM 47:

Starts out the same as 46.  It's against a left handed punch.  Right foot steps out to the outside of the opponents left foot.  Left foot draws in a cat stance.  Left hand monkey paw block to the outside of their left hand and rotate under their arm.  Right palm strike to the elbow followed by a right palm strike to the temple.  Grab with the right hand their right rib area.  Step in with the right foot and execute a hip throw.  While they are on the floor, do a right tiger's mouth to the throat with a simultaneous inverted palm to the nose.  

 Does no one post here anymore?


----------



## karate-dragon

We do it is posted originally with a few differences. When you pull back to the cat stance, you do a monkey grab instead of just a parry to pull them off balance. After the take down, with the arm locked up, we punch to the head (since they are locked up, their head is off the ground a bit, so a punch to the head slams the front of the head with the punch and then slams the back of the head into the ground. Gotta love Kempo). Then we lean back to brak or hyperextend the arm, and then spear hand to the throat.


----------



## MeatWad2

karate-dragon said:


> We do it is posted originally with a few differences. When you pull back to the cat stance, you do a monkey grab instead of just a parry to pull them off balance. After the take down, with the arm locked up, we punch to the head (since they are locked up, their head is off the ground a bit, so a punch to the head slams the front of the head with the punch and then slams the back of the head into the ground. Gotta love Kempo). Then we lean back to brak or hyperextend the arm, and then spear hand to the throat.


 
Don't have it with the arm locked at all.  When you to do hip throw, we let go of the left arm because they will pull you down with them if you keep it locked up.


----------



## dpkempo

After the right palm strike to the temple I kick to the face with the right leg from under their arm ( snap kick or a shin ).  I then land in the center of both legs to block their left knee, then step back with the left leg and turn ccw about 180 degrees while applying pressure to the elbow and breaking the arm. They are being taken down face first.  
It is a very effective takedown if you are on the outside of the arm and can get your foot in the center of both feet to control the legs.  You can hyperextend their knee as well ( Bonus ).


----------



## MeatWad2

dpkempo said:


> After the right palm strike to the temple I kick to the face with the right leg from under their arm ( snap kick or a shin ). I then land in the center of both legs to block their left knee, then step back with the left leg and turn ccw about 180 degrees while applying pressure to the elbow and breaking the arm. They are being taken down face first.
> It is a very effective takedown if you are on the outside of the arm and can get your foot in the center of both feet to control the legs. You can hyperextend their knee as well ( Bonus ).


 
Is this your version of 47 or 46?


----------



## marlon

dpkempo said:


> I have a different version of #45.
> Defense against a right punch. Left foot steps to the outside towards 10:00 as you do a left open handed inside block. Right hand outside block with the palm up and rake your opponents eyes with your fingers. (Fan block or Windmill ). Right roundhouse kick to the inside of your opponents leg and step towards 12:00, as you land deliver a right elbow to the ribs.( you are on th eoutside of your opponents with both legs at this time.) Bring your left foot passed your right as you turn ccw and deliver a left elbow to the face and a right thrust punch to the ribs. Right foot steps behind opponent towards 2:00, with your back to your opponent deliver a left elbow to the kidneys. Snake your left arm under your opponents left armpit and tigers mouth to the throat. Drop to your right knee, opponent falls over your left leg. Trapping his left leg on top of yours you deliver a left punch and right palm to the groin simultaneously.
> I believe that combos 45-50 were taught from the left side. I practice and teach all my combos on both sides.


 

Mine is very similar but after the kick i step more to 11:30, i do not have the thrust punch to the ribs, and the final strikes are a left back 2 knuckle or pheonix strike to the perenium and a palm strike to the bladder simultaneaously...the palm strike pushes towards the back of the knees directionally

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> Actually they add a lot of substance to the curriculum. I do not know if your GM has changed a lot of the combinations but most of the techniques in the lower combo's are repetive principles with different #'s. if not groups.
> 6,7,8,9,12,14 kick sets - most from a standing position or with a knife block - combo 19 - just #6 with a add on. so now we are down to 19 techniques.
> 10 + 17 similiar principles.
> 21 + 26 same (dont get crazy most of you know what i mean)
> 1 through 5 all teach something different -- great techniques.
> 11 - one of my favorites
> combo 13 is just combo #3 with a belt in your hand (that is if you do it with the belt block Left hand high (#3 block) right hand low - (looks like a punch to me)
> 15 - different - this technique alone is fun to change around for hours.
> 16 -- mmm, I like how i do it now more than trying to catch a punch.
> 18 - different (We do it off of a right kick)
> I guess what i am getting at is who wants a person only up till black belt. All that means is that they are really good at basics. the real knowledge comes later on when it truly sinks into your body. Plus up to 40 you get to see a lot of what was influenced by Prof. Cerio and his teaching from Prof. Chow. The foot movements and body positionings after 26 real start making you move in ways you would not think of. David i am not trying to blast you here just answering your question on wondering if it adds substance. the higher numbers have hip throws, Small Circle Ju-Jitsu take downs - arm bars and breaks and so much more. Go to Matt Barnes Page, grab some of the techniques in the 40's and try them out, you will see some substance. Until then train hard in your combo's because and Grand Master Pesare says -- Give me 26 techniques and i will show you 260 moves.
> Jesse


 
Good post Jesse,
how do you do 16 now...i have a dragon stomp to the advancing knee this checks the forward motion and allows for the palm trap at the wrist and elbow  (really a good strike that palm trap)

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

MeatWad2 said:


> Number 43:
> 
> Step in with the left foot and use a downward knife block to the wrist. Turn. Right Palm strike to the temple, left palm to the ribs. Turn. Right palm strike to the back of the neck, left palm strike to the kidneys. Turn. Right palm strike to the temple and left palm strike to the ribs.


 

Slight difference
step with the left leg towards the center of uke's body with a left downward palm block to the wrist then a left palm to the temple (delivered much like a hook punch) then a left elbow to the jaw as the body  shifts cw.  right elbow to chin or nose striking upwards much more than back. the left leg steps behind uke and to thier center with a left elbow to the kidney the left hand reaches up and grab the face from behind and uke's right side pull the head back as the left leg steps to 12:00 (ccw) pivot into a left forward stance and deliver a right driving ridge to the throat.
not my favorite either, but no jumping around and i do not hate it.  In one of the Villari videos he does it with out explaination in one of the little sequences of him moving that he has throughout his instructional video set and he does it with  at least one jump at the end

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

14 Kempo said:


> I agree with you Mr. Dwire, not something I would ever find myself doing. However, when this happens, I try to find a reason why it might be taught and what I come up with on this particular technique is that I may find myself in a position where I may have just taken a left cross or hook and in moving with the punch I spin away, and continue that spin right into the palm strikes. It teaches me footwork, coordination in spinning while maintaining balance and striking as I complete my movement, simultaneously, using the whole body to strike. It is very doubtful that I would continue spinning around the opponent.
> 
> Anyone else have any thoughts on this technique?


 

a variation of 39, perhaps,  and it really works moving the opponents center while moving around them with out any grasping...moving like this with sticks in your hands has a very escrima feel to it...again not my favorite but i do not hate it.  i still have a lot to learn and studying the combos always improves my kempo...especially the one i do not like

respectfully,
marlon
p.s. i have had this one for only about a year


----------



## marlon

MeatWad2 said:


> That one sounds pretty interesting. I know for a fact that 45-50 are taught against left handed attacks.


 
i know many Villari schools teach the combos lefty after combo 45.  But i have always learned them righty then i know that i must know my techniques both sides...and all the students i teach know that this is what is expected. Shihan Ingargiola expects it, also.  He, btw, was taught with the combos lefty after 45 as well but does not retain that particular practice

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

MeatWad2 said:


> DM 47:
> 
> Starts out the same as 46. It's against a left handed punch. Right foot steps out to the outside of the opponents left foot. Left foot draws in a cat stance. Left hand monkey paw block to the outside of their left hand and rotate under their arm. Right palm strike to the elbow followed by a right palm strike to the temple. Grab with the right hand their right rib area. Step in with the right foot and execute a hip throw. While they are on the floor, do a right tiger's mouth to the throat with a simultaneous inverted palm to the nose.
> 
> Does no one post here anymore?


 

sound like a variation of 35.  i could not post for a while...time constrainst and now my next combo is 57, 59, 60, 63,68, 69, 73, 74, 93... so i wait.

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## dpkempo

MeatWad2 said:


> Is this your version of 47 or 46?


 
This is Combo 47.


----------



## dpkempo

marlon said:


> Mine is very similar but after the kick i step more to 11:30, i do not have the thrust punch to the ribs, and the final strikes are a left back 2 knuckle or pheonix strike to the perenium and a palm strike to the bladder simultaneaously...the palm strike pushes towards the back of the knees directionally
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon


 
11:30 or 12:00 it's only a half hour, maybe you are faster than I am. lol.  The thrust punch prevents him from falling towards you as you step around his back.  It seems to work really well.


----------



## marlon

dpkempo said:


> 11:30 or 12:00 it's only a half hour, maybe you are faster than I am. lol. The thrust punch prevents him from falling towards you as you step around his back. It seems to work really well.


 
well perhaps my watch is a little slower than yours.   I like him falling into my right elbow as i step behind him so i would not want to stop him with a thrust the way i was taught

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## MeatWad2

marlon said:


> sound like a variation of 35. i could not post for a while...time constrainst and now my next combo is 57, 59, 60, 63,68, 69, 73, 74, 93... so i wait.
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon


 
Sorry...not a version of 35 as far as I know.


----------



## graychuan

kosho said:


> Ok here is my issue with #1
> when you step back and block and shuffle in with the second punch comeing in at you. YOU get hit.
> 
> so I took this comb and added natural law to it.
> 
> first you never want to move backwards to move forwards.
> 
> with this mind. as the punch comes in step forward with your right foot avoiding the punch (by shifting your center) and deliver a back hand strike to the side of the attackers head.
> 
> as he feels this blow you then follow threw with a right strike to the attackes jaw as your left hand swings under the attackers right elbow area.. (Wrapping it or him up) shifting there body from a 90 degree to a 45 degree you shift there center and take them to the ground. finish the teq. as you have it...
> 
> the key here is as you hit there head jaw you shift your hand threw on a 45 degree angle moveing there head back and to the right...
> 
> I can show you, but some times it is hard to write. as I am still healing from surgery...
> 
> thanks,
> steve
> 
> I think this is a great idear to break down all comb...


 
I know Im late in joining this thread but my take on # 1 combo... Why can't the right claw hand comming across with the strike to the face be a claw/palm *block* instead. This way you can tie up both arms and still be able to strike back into the face/nose with the crane wrist and and follow through with the tigers-mouth-throw. Now you have a way to deal with both punches and not even change the flow or hand postures of the technique. Good thing about an authentic art...if it ain't broke don't fix it.
  I apologize if someone has already made this point.

~Cg~


----------



## graychuan

graychuan said:


> I know Im late in joining this thread but my take on # 1 combo... Why can't the right claw hand comming across with the strike to the face be a claw/palm *block* instead. This way you can tie up both arms and still be able to strike back into the face/nose with the crane wrist and and follow through with the tigers-mouth-throw. Now you have a way to deal with both punches and not even change the flow or hand postures of the technique. Good thing about an authentic art...if it ain't broke don't fix it.
> I apologize if someone has already made this point.
> 
> ~Cg~


 

To follow up with Koshos post, I also understand your point in moving forward. That sounds like a statement a skilled martial artist would make. As one developes more skill and experience... all of the applications become more streamlined and powerful. The better your skills are the less time you spend running away or moving back. Kinda like in tha movie 'The Professional' when the assassin said something like,' In the beginning you keep your distance but as you get better you will get closer to your targets'.

~Cg~


----------



## marlon

graychuan said:


> To follow up with Koshos post, I also understand your point in moving forward. That sounds like a statement a skilled martial artist would make. As one developes more skill and experience... all of the applications become more streamlined and powerful. The better your skills are the less time you spend running away or moving back. Kinda like in tha movie 'The Professional' when the assassin said something like,' In the beginning you keep your distance but as you get better you will get closer to your targets'.
> 
> ~Cg~


 

Both ideas have validity.  However i do my 1 a little different.  Instead of stepping back to 6:00 i sink into a cat stance more at 5:00.  The monkey block is not a hard hit, rather it is a draw (as is sinkinginto a cat stance towards 5:00).  I do not really 'step' forward so much as shift to a forward stance facing10:00 or so cutting a diagnol line of attack through the opponent  (8 directions).  as the left hand moves from the monkey block to the facila rake and the arm wrap it covers my center line and my right hand is on guard.  my stance shift moves the attacker's center unbalancing him or her for all that follows.  Of course distance and timing are very important. (but that is why we train)  done this way the technique requires little strength and produces a more dramatic effect than some other ways.

just some thouhgts.  Thanks guys for sharing.  hopefully we will meet at some event again and get some physical training done.  I enjoy learning other perspectives.  
Jesse!!  You guys always seem to train after i have retired.  Next time let me know!!!....please  

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## RevIV

marlon said:


> just some thouhgts. Thanks guys for sharing. hopefully we will meet at some event again and get some physical training done. I enjoy learning other perspectives.
> Jesse!! You guys always seem to train after i have retired. Next time let me know!!!....please
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
My opinion is, dont go to bed.. eventually martial artists will do what they do best.  Nothing better than working your balance at 4am.  See you soon i hope.  Prof. I. is coming and doing a seminar at my school next tuesday.  Last minute thing.
Jesse


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> the break i have is of the arm with an axe kick and an shifting of the legs. The thing aboiut this technique is the timing of the stop kick to the knee must be immediately followed with the palm strikes to the arm (at wrist and elbow)for the trap to work otherwise it is unrrealistic to think you can grab an arm out of the air.
> 
> it is nice but very similar to 69
> 
> respectfull,
> marlon


 
Hello Marlon, I have 52 as a version of 16, but starting left front kick instead of right. Is that your version of 52 also and if not is your version of 69 like that?


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> Hello Marlon, I have 52 as a version of 16, but starting left front kick instead of right. Is that your version of 52 also and if not is your version of 69 like that?


 

i do not have 52. and the 69 i have starts almost exactly like 16.  the change begins with the way you manipulate the arm. 16 more traditional leverage at the elbow and 69 bend at the elbow for more of a shoulder control and take down.
Good to hear from you again!

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## SK101

I don't know if this was covered before so I will throw it out there just in case. 

Techniques should be looked at from at least two points of view - 
Principle(s) or theory(ies) of the technique. Movements of the technique.

I.E. Use DM 3 off a cross hand wrist grab and you can use most of same movements as in the front punch version, but you will do away with the principle of hitting the opponent while the energy is unchecked(no block and opponent's energy still gowing forward). 

   Step toward 10:30 and dodge a double throat choke then deliver an inverted hammer to groin and you are applying the principle of hitting the opponent while they continue without using the same strikes as DM 3.


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> we do not step directly back but to 5:00.
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
I like the idea of not stepping directly to 6:00 when drawing back. When you do DMs that pull back and then go to the opponents outside do you go to 7:00 or are you also using 5:00 on those as well.


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> I like the idea of not stepping directly to 6:00 when drawing back. When you do DMs that pull back and then go to the opponents outside do you go to 7:00 or are you also using 5:00 on those as well.


 
Mostly yes, however, it depends on what the concept is with the technique.  36 draws back in order to facilitate the person running into the palm strike so i go back to 12:00. but mostly i do not step back to 12:00 while sinking into a cat stance

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Jdokan

graychuan said:


> I know Im late in joining this thread but my take on # 1 combo... Why can't the right claw hand comming across with the strike to the face be a claw/palm *block* instead. This way you can tie up both arms and still be able to strike back into the face/nose with the crane wrist and and follow through with the tigers-mouth-throw. Now you have a way to deal with both punches and not even change the flow or hand postures of the technique. Good thing about an authentic art...if it ain't broke don't fix it.
> I apologize if someone has already made this point.
> 
> ~Cg~


 I was taught to the opening of hansuki (right blockiing hand / left clawing hand)...
Now...my openning is totatlly different.
I block with a right cross sword and poke with a left sword to the throat,the right hand does a driving sword to their right eye then the left hand circles ccw rakes the face encircling the arm and finish as usual....


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## SK101

marlon said:


> BTW i do not consider the kick in 35 or 5 to be moving back in any sense of the idea...if done properly the other strikes should move the person away from you if you do not grab them and then you might even have to shuffle in...it is a problem when we practice without contact that some techniques can be seen ...differently.The dropping knife hand to the arm as you move back into a cat stance in 23 is an example of limb destruction . If you cannot fight while moving backwards give it a try..it is an excellent tactic to draw an opponent in or feign weakness where there is none.
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 
I know what your saying here. I don't practice these two techniques as hitting while moving away either, but if I am understanding kempo 14 correctly if the opponent is too far away for the side kick you can still throw the side kick prior to the cross out. This just makes the side kick a safety messure since you were going to cross out anyway you use the sidekick to "clear out" the area to insure the opponent doesn't charge in at the beginning of your cross out. I am not saying the theory is on 5 or 35, but it could be if the opponent was moved out range on the strike just prior to the sidekick. 

The simpleist version of what I am talking about is to throw a backfist while crossing away from an opponent. the opponent is out of range yet they potential get hit if they charge. Yes the energy is not maximized, but it isn't designed to hit with max power it is only designed to hit the person if they charge. The big diffference in thought of technique is that you throw an attack without your opponent being in range. 

I like the theory, but certainly to each their own.


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## marlon

SK101 said:


> I know what your saying here. I don't practice these two techniques as hitting while moving away either, but if I am understanding kempo 14 correctly if the opponent is too far away for the side kick you can still throw the side kick prior to the cross out. This just makes the side kick a safety messure since you were going to cross out anyway you use the sidekick to "clear out" the area to insure the opponent doesn't charge in at the beginning of your cross out. I am not saying the theory is on 5 or 35, but it could be if the opponent was moved out range on the strike just prior to the sidekick.
> 
> The simpleist version of what I am talking about is to throw a backfist while crossing away from an opponent. the opponent is out of range yet they potential get hit if they charge. Yes the energy is not maximized, but it isn't designed to hit with max power it is only designed to hit the person if they charge. The big diffference in thought of technique is that you throw an attack without your opponent being in range.
> 
> I like the theory, but certainly to each their own.


 
interesting take on 14.  I usually jump to 4:30 and kick...sort of get out of the way and hit hard...while coming down.

marlon


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## Jdokan

marlon said:


> interesting take on 14. I usually jump to 4:30 and kick...sort of get out of the way and hit hard...while coming down.
> 
> marlon


 Very similar to mine...same step & kick...my first kick (left) strikes the knee, the second kick stabs upward toward the groin the third kick hits the mid section..( the second & third are off the right leg).


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## marlon

Jdokan said:


> Very similar to mine...same step & kick...my first kick (left) strikes the knee, the second kick stabs upward toward the groin the third kick hits the mid section..( the second & third are off the right leg).


 
are we speaking of 14 here or another combo?

marlon


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## Jdokan

marlon said:


> are we speaking of 14 here or another combo?
> 
> Marlon


 #14...


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## RevIV

Jdokan said:


> Very similar to mine...same step & kick...my first kick (left) strikes the knee, the second kick stabs upward toward the groin the third kick hits the mid section..( the second & third are off the right leg).


 
Jeff,
Have you ever thought about just calling your tech. something else?  Some of your combos have changed drastically (to the better in the ones I have seen)  Why not call it something else?


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## 14 Kempo

We do our #14 what I consider the traditional way, scissor kick. Then we have a #14B that is modified to keep the feet on the floor.


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## Jdokan

RevIV said:


> Jeff,
> Have you ever thought about just calling your tech. something else?  Some of your combos have changed drastically (to the better in the ones I have seen)  Why not call it something else?


Pretty much I keep the same numbering sequence I was taught...I do however teach/show the evolution of each technique as it has changed over the years....To start changing my  numberings now would only confuse me...and at my age :{ I want to keep or make things simpler....


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## RevIV

Jdokan said:


> Pretty much I keep the same numbering sequence I was taught...I do however teach/show the evolution of each technique as it has changed over the years....To start changing my numberings now would only confuse me...and at my age :{ I want to keep or make things simpler....


 
fine, give the old man excuse.. by the way how old do I need to be before I can use it?  Well, do not be surprised when I call you up to be on the board that helps me change the curriculum and how it is taught.. But don't worry it wont be this year. the baby is 8 months tommorow and Im still figuring it out.


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## Jdokan

RevIV said:


> by the way how old do I need to be before I can use it?
> *You need to have less years ahead than behind.....*
> 
> 
> the baby is 8 months tomorow and Im still figuring it out.


*Happy Birthday to your daughter!  *


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## RevIV

Originally Posted by *RevIV* 

 
_by the way how old do I need to be before I can use it? 
*You need to have less years ahead than behind.....*
_
_Ahh crap Jeff,  if i were to follow my families history then I'm old enough for this theory...  what are we talking about again?

_


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## Jdokan

RevIV said:


> Originally Posted by *RevIV*
> 
> 
> _by the way how old do I need to be before I can use it?
> *You need to have less years ahead than behind.....*
> _
> _Ahh crap Jeff,  if i were to follow my families history then I'm old enough for this theory...  what are we talking about again?
> 
> _


AhAH!!!  Then you're there....that's one of the first signs......Wait a minute what was I talking about??


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