# Ground fighting again???



## carmstrong (Jan 4, 2005)

[font=Verdana, Times New Roman, Helvetica]Clyde T. O'Briant has posted several times that Kenpo techniques can be modified and adapted/applied to ground fighting  the techniques are in there if only one is experienced/clever/perceptive enough to see them. But Ive also heard that SGM Parker actually developed a fully fleshed-out ground fighting system with someone.

  Does anyone know if this is true and who this person might be?

  Chris[/font][font=Verdana, Times New Roman, Helvetica]
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## bzarnett (Jan 4, 2005)

I can't speak for Mr. Parker but there is probably a good chance that there where black belt looking at ground fighting as a thesis topics prior to Mr. Parker's death. 

I know that Skip Hancock and Kenpo 2000 has an excellent ground fighting curriculum that is American Kenpo - it uses the terms, principles, concepts, etc. to work on the ground position within the cycle of considerations. I know Mr. Mills has a similiar system. 

I am not sure what Clyde is talking about specifically. If he could provide examples I think that it would be great. From my experience with Mr. Hancock, I known that I can "maneuver" while standing up and "maneuver" while I am on the ground. I can "be neutral" standing up and "be neutral" while being in a ground position. I can take the basics, principles of motion, and principles of self-defense and apply them from a standing position or from a grounded position (aka the mount, guard, north-south, etc.)

Is there an umpa (bridge and roll) in the base American Kenpo system? Can't see it. Is there the principles and basics in stand-up that allow me to implement the upma from a ground position. Yes. Perhaps this is what Clyde is referring too. Again, his comments leave a bit too much to the imagination.

As an example, tonight in class we will be working on "margin for error" or perhaps "with". We will work this from the stand-up perhaps through freestyle or the self-defense techniques. We will then go to the ground and explore the same concept from ground positions doing a self-defense technique from the ground. 

I don't see, and it might just be my level of experience, the physical positions of the ground game in basic American Kenpo. I do see the strikes, breakfalls, and locks in the stand-up game that can be easily applied to the ground. What I don't see is the stances and maneuvers. There is nothing of course from stopping you from intelligently intregrating this into your system.

If you want to experience the ground game through American Kenpo and if anyone is in or near Bellingham,WA between January 21-23, Pacific Northwest Karate is holding an excellent grappling camp with Mr. Hancock, Scott Marker, and Joe Jones. They have incredible experience on the ground and have demonstrated Kenpo in the ground game to a great level. 

Cheers,
Bryan


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## Michael Billings (Jan 5, 2005)

If you review Mr. Tatum's (Clyde's instructor), Tips of the Week, one of the earlier ones included applications of the techniques from a stand up ideal phase, to application on the ground.  It did include a heel hook, bump and roll as part of a Lone Kimono application I believe, I could easily be wrong it was so long ago that I saw this.  The kick was a knee and part of the bump, etc.

 I play with them on the ground also.  Some are cool, and applicable, but like anything, THEY WILL NOT BE THERE FOR YOU UNLESS YOU PRACTICE THEM.  Remember, our ground game is not usually submission or to beat someone up.  It is a self-defense scenario with potential multiple opponents.  The old (1950's) Japanese Jiu-Jitsu guys had it right, if you went down, you got up as fast as you could ... and you JUST PLAIN HURT THE OPPONENT AS FAST AS YOU COULD.  The had a stand-up and a ground game, you had to if you were dealing with real self defense, and they were!

 -Michael


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## MJS (Jan 5, 2005)

Hi Chris!  It looks like you already have 2 excellent replies to your post.  I'd also like to comment.  

When first looking, it appears that it would be hard to apply a standing tech. to the ground, but after taking a few techs. and applying some of the concepts, I was able to make Crossing Talon and Mace Of Aggression work from a mounted position.  Again, was it a 'text book' application? No, but the idea was there.  Check out Mr. Tatums TOW, as Mr. Billings has already suggested.  There was a tech. in which is had shown it standing and then applied it to the mounted position.  

As it was also said, the Kenpo version and the BJJ version of grappling are definately 2 different animals.  

I hope that this was a help!

Mike


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