# Billie Joe Armstrong



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 23, 2012)

According to http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...ab-i-heart-radio-rant-20120923,0,992375.story, Billie Joe Armstrong, the singer for Green Day is going to rehab due to his recent outburst. A clip of the outburst can be found in a link in the article I've linked, would link it directly, but (and this is a warning as well) it has a lot of strong language in it. What does everyone think about it?


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## Omar B (Sep 23, 2012)

A "punk" rocker freaked out and acted up on stage?  Say it isnt so.  I remember when I was a teen and my bud Jason was all into Green Day, we went to see them at Roseland Ballroom, dude spit on Jason.  There's a reason us metalheads look down on punks ... other than the fact that they cannot play for crap.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 23, 2012)

I feel the same way...he doesn't need to go to rehab, people just have to accept punk rockers do this type of thing...get attention by freaking out and cursing at everyone in between sets


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## oaktree (Sep 24, 2012)

I have been to many punk shows and I never saw any band
Spit on anyone. I hardly consider green day punk compared
To antiflag,pennywise,bouncing souls. Punk bands from people
I have met are the down to earth people and nicest people.
Punk rock isn't so much about can you play an instrument it is more about unity,about
Being yourself and expression.  What I always liked about punk bands
Was after the show they would hang out with you or talk to you.
A lot of times at shows one of the band members are selling their merchandise
so you know the things you buy goes to the band.


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## Omar B (Sep 24, 2012)

that's why i put "punk" in quotes.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 24, 2012)

oaktree said:


> I have been to many punk shows and I never saw any band
> Spit on anyone.



Please.  I was going to Black Flag, X, and other real punk shows back in the day.  Spit on you?  They would throw microphones at audience members, and club the crap out of them if they tried to climb up on stage to crowd-surf.  Spitting would have been comparatively polite.

I actually like Green Day.  Punk they are not.  Punk has one drum beat and three chords.  It's energy and not musicianship.  I liked it for that.  But it's dead now.  Dead and gone.

This is punk:

[video=youtube_share;Fsbvo5GVK10]http://youtu.be/Fsbvo5GVK10[/video]

[video=youtube_share;sbupNAwT4rk]http://youtu.be/sbupNAwT4rk[/video]

[video=youtube_share;aEJiUELDi30]http://youtu.be/aEJiUELDi30[/video]

[video=youtube_share;Mo8eQgjIAEs]http://youtu.be/Mo8eQgjIAEs[/video]

Hell, the late GG Allin used to attack his fans in the nude, urinate on them, and throw his own feces at them.  Never went to one of his shows.

Warning, NSFW:

[video=youtube_share;QMSWRT6ynhs]http://youtu.be/QMSWRT6ynhs[/video]


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 24, 2012)

oaktree said:


> I have been to many punk shows and I never saw any band
> Spit on anyone. I hardly consider green day punk compared
> To antiflag,pennywise,bouncing souls. Punk bands from people
> I have met are the down to earth people and nicest people.
> ...


I agree, but was also using punk in what people who call green day punk consider punk


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## oaktree (Sep 24, 2012)

Hi Bill 


> Please. I was going to Black Flag, X, and other real punk shows back in the day. Spit on you? They would throw microphones at audience members, and club the crap out of them if they tried to climb up on stage to crowd-surf. Spitting would have been comparatively polite.


REAL PUNK SHOWS :rofl::rofl::rofl: Dude, as if going to a Black flag show makes you more punk rock then anyone else lol. First Black Flag isn't really Punk they are sub-genre known as Hardcore. Second during the mid eighties the bands started to move away from the violence in the scene and many bands regret there being violence as that was not the point of it you can see with the scene starting with the Youth Crew movement and Minor Threat with the Stright edge movement. The scene became more about unity because everyone realize everyone is stronger united then divided with violence against each other. 



> I actually like Green Day. Punk they are not. Punk has one drum beat and three chords. It's energy and not musicianship. I liked it for that. But it's dead now. Dead and gone.


 Its cool if you like Green Day, Green day did their first gig opening for Operation Ivy so they do have some ties to the Punk-ska scene in the late 80's.
 Punk does not have only one drum beat. There are alot of changes in the beats. You have break downs and build ups. Also Punk is not all just 3 chords or power chords. Many Punk bands now a days have really worked on structure in the song and have come up with more complicated changes. Matt Freeman bass playing is one of the best Punk bassist and as a bass player myself his structure does have alot going on then just three chords. It's energy sure, is it music depends. The idea is that anyone can do it but again Punk rock like Rock and Roll has evolved. Its trendy to say Punk is dead people have been saying it for years. Your generation of Punk may be dead but my generation still keeps it alive and we are stronger and united much more than when Punk first came out.


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## oaktree (Sep 24, 2012)

Hi Kenpo maybe it all comes down to semantics. Is Green Day punk depends who you talk to. Some might say yes they are pop punk, or they are emo or they are alternative.
  It is like that with hardcore bands too. Is Bad Brains Punk or Hardcore. What about Proto-Punk, Punk and Post Punk and then with new wave and goth things get blurry.
I really don't care who is punk or not. Punk is being yourself. Saying you went to a Black flag concert in the 80's and wearing that as some pendant of how many punk points you have is as far away from Punk as you can get. Anyway I have made my point talking about what is Punk and is not Punk isn't very Punk either. :boing2:


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 24, 2012)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that Punk was sped up reggae. The Police were punk, but full of talent.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 24, 2012)

oaktree said:


> Hi Bill
> 
> REAL PUNK SHOWS :rofl::rofl::rofl: Dude, as if going to a Black flag show makes you more punk rock then anyone else lol.



All it makes me is old.  I'm not 'punk', but I know what punk is.  And generally speaking, what it is not.



> First Black Flag isn't really Punk they are sub-genre known as Hardcore. Second during the mid eighties the bands started to move away from the violence in the scene and many bands regret there being violence as that was not the point of it you can see with the scene starting with the Youth Crew movement and Minor Threat with the Stright edge movement. The scene became more about unity because everyone realize everyone is stronger united then divided with violence against each other.



What Black Flag is or is not considered to have been in retrospect is irrelevant.  I was there, it was punk, and that's what it was called.  If you were a reader of Flipside in 1981/82 and going to local shows, you knew what punk was and what it wasn't at the time (SoCal, early 1980s).

I'm quite familiar with Straight Edge, especially as it evolved as a reaction not just to drug use and violence, but also to the beginnings of 'oi' and the mistaken belief by some that punk rockers were skinheads of the racist sort.



> Its cool if you like Green Day, Green day did their first gig opening for Operation Ivy so they do have some ties to the Punk-ska scene in the late 80's.



There was no punk in the late 1980s that I am aware of.



> Punk does not have only one drum beat. There are alot of changes in the beats. You have break downs and build ups. Also Punk is not all just 3 chords or power chords. Many Punk bands now a days have really worked on structure in the song and have come up with more complicated changes. Matt Freeman bass playing is one of the best Punk bassist and as a bass player myself his structure does have alot going on then just three chords. It's energy sure, is it music depends. The idea is that anyone can do it but again Punk rock like Rock and Roll has evolved. Its trendy to say Punk is dead people have been saying it for years.



I have no idea what is trendy and what is not.  I recall the proclaimed 'death' of punk, including a funeral for it, in the mid 1980s.



> Your generation of Punk may be dead but my generation still keeps it alive and we are stronger and united much more than when Punk first came out.



Your generation's punk is to my generation's punk what Sha-Na-Na is to Do-wop.  A great look back.  No offense intended; as I said, I do like Greenday (as well as other so-called 'punk' bands).

Hey, I like ska also, but it's not the same ska as the original ska.  For that matter, my 'punk' is not the same punk as that which came out of the UK before it, or even the East Coast US punk that also preceded it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 24, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that Punk was sped up reggae. The Police were punk, but full of talent.



That would be incorrect.  The Police were in no way 'punk'.  I did like them quite a bit, but punk?  NO.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 24, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> That would be incorrect.  The Police were in no way 'punk'.  I did like them quite a bit, but punk?  NO.


Gosh Bill those VH1 specials seemed so convincing in the description and beat. Isn't it possible you are being a bit of a stickler for the attitude thing?
Sean


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 24, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> Gosh Bill those VH1 specials seemed so convincing in the description and beat. Isn't it possible you are being a bit of a stickler for the attitude thing?
> Sean



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Police



> The Police were an English rock band formed in London in 1977. For the vast majority of their history, the band consisted of Sting (lead vocals, bass), Andy Summers (guitar) and Stewart Copeland (drums). The Police became globally popular in the late 1970s and are _*generally regarded as one of the first New Wave*_ groups to achieve mainstream success, playing a style of rock that was influenced by punk, reggae, and jazz.



I liked The Police quite a bit; still think some of their songs are classics.  But they are melodic, they have metre and rhyme and harmony.  These are not particular attributes of punk rock.


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## oaktree (Sep 24, 2012)

Hi Bill,


> What Black Flag is or is not considered to have been in retrospect is irrelevant. I was there, it was punk, and that's what it was called. If you were a reader of Flipside in 1981/82 and going to local shows, you knew what punk was and what it wasn't at the time (SoCal, early 1980s).


It is called Hardcore Punk. But Hardcore differs from say the Punk of the Sex Pistols, Ramones. It is like comparing Taijiquan to Karate even if both are martial arts.



> I'm quite familiar with Straight Edge, especially as it evolved as a reaction not just to drug use and violence, but also to the beginnings of 'oi' and the mistaken belief by some that punk rockers were skinheads of the racist sort.


 Straight edge evolved from many bands and their personal belief. Minor Threat's sing Straight Edge is considered one of the main influences but Ian never consider making a movement just expressing his personal beliefs in the song. Alot of the bands that shared similar ideas were friends.  Straight Edge did not come as a counter balance against racist skin heads though it may have been possible. Youth of Today were very into Straight edge with the Youth movement and Ray the singer shaved his head. 
Most Skin heads I have met are SHARPS and are very nice.


> There was no punk in the late 1980s that I am aware of.


 Well the same bands still kept making records. The Vandals, NoFX, Bad Brains and so on were and are still making music and playing shows so yes there was punk and there is punk now.


> I have no idea what is trendy and what is not. I recall the proclaimed 'death' of punk, including a funeral for it, in the mid 1980s.


Rick Rubin had a funeral for the word "DEF" yet the word is still used sometimes. People said disco is dead yet Disco bands are still playing shows at Disney world lol.


> Your generation's punk is to my generation's punk what Sha-Na-Na is to Do-wop. A great look back. No offense intended; as I said, I do like Greenday (as well as other so-called 'punk' bands).


 Alot of the bands from the 80's are still playing. 



> Hey, I like ska also, but it's not the same ska as the original ska. For that matter, my 'punk' is not the same punk as that which came out of the UK before it, or even the East Coast US punk that also preceded it.


 Which Ska the 1960's Ska, The Two tone ska, 3RD Wave, Ska-Punk?  All have the same Ska sound just different tempos. 

I think we can all agree Justin Bieber sucks though! :boing2:


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## oaktree (Sep 24, 2012)

Hi Touch,
Reggae and Punk are different. Bad Brain actually played both.:boing2: 
 The drums are very different the drums such as the one drop is on the 1, and 3 The Bass in Reggae is deeper, Reggae guitar favors more of the Wah pedal.
Punk uses a faster tempo with a 1 2 beat, The bass lines are more pop and springing, Guitar is distorted.
The Police were more reggae and pop then Punk. That is what I mean people sometimes considered bands like Blondie and such as Punk and the line of Punk, pop, New wave just get blurry, even more so with the band Madness a ska band who's famous song "our house" is like a new wave classic!


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 24, 2012)

oaktree said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> It is called Hardcore Punk. But Hardcore differs from say the Punk of the Sex Pistols, Ramones. It is like comparing Taijiquan to Karate even if both are martial arts.
> 
> ...



I don't think we're that far off.  Whatever the punk that I was listening to back in the day may be called now, it wasn't called that then.  How do I know?  I was there.

And that leads to my second point.  You seem to feel that I think I'm 'more punk' (whatever that is) because I was there when it was happening.  I'm not 'more punk' than anyone else.  I was just there.  People who were there, were there.  People who were not there were not there.  That's all.

I get that kind of thing from people who want to be military veterans are aren't.  I don't think I'm 'better than' anyone else for being a veteran.  But I am one.  Those who are not, are not.  They can't tell me anything about what being a veteran is like; they haven't a clue.  Likewise, I don't know how someone who was not there when I was can tell me what the music I was into is called.  I was there.  I know what it was called.  Those who were not there have no way to know what we called it other than things they read.

And SHARPS were very late to the game, from my point of view.  The first skinheads I ran into were simply punk rockers.  The group that started wearing the braces and Doc Martins after that were often racist skinheads.  Then came the SHARPS.

You keep mentioning these bands like you think I don't know who they are.  I was there.  I remember.  From personal experience, not reading about it somewhere.

As to ska, I meant the Two Tone stuff.  The Selector, the Beat, Madness, The Specials AKA, etc.  I love them but they were not the first ska.  I also have some original Jamaican ska vinyl I spin from time to time.  I like that too, but it's not the stuff I grew up on; it came first.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 24, 2012)

Is this one of those occasions where American and English usage mean different things?

Punk is bands such as:

Sex Pistols
[yt]na7A3-UCCYE[/yt]

Clash
[yt]TIh7UPvHxAk[/yt]

Adverts
[yt]oaDfy3Rc35E[/yt]

Sham69
[yt]QNmW1mq-n_s[/yt]

Buzzcocks
[yt]terg_LPT3X0[/yt]

Stranglers
[yt]2B4bsqYxwo0[/yt]

Siouxsie and the Banshees
[yt]Ng3z7lrC80I[/yt]

The Damned
[yt]p5o3NFnyM4g[/yt]

Leyton Buzzards
[yt]U5STduWCjdk[/yt]


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## Sukerkin (Sep 24, 2012)

Oh and The Selector were the very first band I ever went to see play live .  Kudos to BillM for knowing who they were :tup:.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 25, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> Oh and The Selector were the very first band I ever went to see play live .  Kudos to BillM for knowing who they were :tup:.








Short story time...

When I was in my final year of high school in Colorado, circa 1978/79, I was driving myself to school every day instead of taking the bus.  One day, I found a pirate radio station.  They were playing music I had never heard of before.  I listened to them for a few weeks.  The FCC shut them down, I suppose, because they disappeared.  However, I found a 'legitimate' station that was playing this same kind of music.  From a lifetime of listening to what we called "Top 40" or "AOR" (Album-Oriented Rock) such as Kansas, Boston, Queen, Foreigner, Journey, and etc, I found myself listening to bands like The Stranglers, The Specials AKA, Madness, The Selector, Captain Sensible, The Fabulous Poodles, and so on.  It was quite an awakening for me, and I have to say it played some part in shaping my life thereafter.  I found a record store in downtown Denver that sold import vinyl and I started spending my disposable income on records from the UK and from smaller independent labels.  This alienated me from my Kansas, Boston, Aerosmith, etc, friends and left me to my own devices.  I went further and further afield rather quickly.

Thus it was that when I joined the USMC and found myself in Southern California when the West Coast's version of punk was happening, I fell right inline with that music.  I listened to KROQ out of Los Angeles, I read "Flipside" fanzine, collected records, and I attended all the punk shows I could in the area.

Although my musical tastes have expanded greatly since then, I never lost my taste for Ska, Punk, New Wave, and a variety of difficult-to-classify music from everywhere.  I listen to all things UK, from Dance Hall to The Streets.  I have never set foot in the UK, but one day I would love to visit.  I seldom hear popular music from the UK that I do not like.

FYI: this is me at Camp Pendleton, California in 1982.  Rude Boy:




Himself at 13 Area Barracks, Camp Pendleton, California - 1982 by Wigwam Jones, on Flickr


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 25, 2012)

to be honest, i love when people argue about whether certain groups are punk/hardcore/screamo/emo/whatever. Because people judge it based on different things (attitude, looks, the lyrical message, the music/musical mood, even how the guitar is tuned one time) there will NEVER be an answer that people agree on XD There are those who insist hardcore punk or pop punk still count as punk, while others will say only mainstream punk is real punk (always found that idea odd). Just waiting for someone to get it confused with hipsters and say "if more than X people know about it, it's not a punk band anymore its just a sellout band"


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 25, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> to be honest, i love when people argue about whether certain groups are punk/hardcore/screamo/emo/whatever. Because people judge it based on different things (attitude, looks, the lyrical message, the music/musical mood, even how the guitar is tuned one time) there will NEVER be an answer that people agree on XD There are those who insist hardcore punk or pop punk still count as punk, while others will say only mainstream punk is real punk (always found that idea odd). Just waiting for someone to get it confused with hipsters and say "if more than X people know about it, it's not a punk band anymore its just a sellout band"



If you were there, you know what it was called.  If you were not there, then apply any post-punk labels you want to it, as well as to current 'punk' bands, as you wish.  However, nothing changes the fact that we called it punk at the time, and punk it remains.  Anything that doesn't sound like that, isn't punk.  How hard is that?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 25, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If you were there, you know what it was called.  If you were not there, then apply any post-punk labels you want to it, as well as to current 'punk' bands, as you wish.  However, nothing changes the fact that we called it punk at the time, and punk it remains.  Anything that doesn't sound like that, isn't punk.  How hard is that?


So you're at a black flag concert, and they call themselves punk, and you all called them punk, so forever they are punk (I'll disregard the fact that bands change what they label themselves as sometimes), and anything that doesn't sound like that isn't punk. I go to an antiflag concert, and they call themselves punk, and we call them punk, so forever they are punk and anything that doesn't sound like that isn't punk. However, the two bands don't sound similar. See the problem here?


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 25, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> So you're at a black flag concert, and they call themselves punk, and you all called them punk, so forever they are punk (I'll disregard the fact that bands change what they label themselves as sometimes), and anything that doesn't sound like that isn't punk. I go to an antiflag concert, and they call themselves punk, and we call them punk, so forever they are punk and anything that doesn't sound like that isn't punk. However, the two bands don't sound similar. See the problem here?



Not from my point of view.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 25, 2012)

Sex Pistols = Punk
Green Day &#8800;Punk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 25, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Not from my point of view.



You just stated the problem. You're only looking at it through your point of view, and refusing to recognize other people's point of view.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 25, 2012)

I don't really get what you're trying to say, Kempo.  Bands that were part of the movement in the mid-late 70's were Punk.  Those that came after that did a similar thing in the States could also be called Punk, tho' of a somewhat different sort.  Those that came along later still that took upon themselves the cachet of Punk might have played Punk 'style' but they were not part of the original movement.  Doesn't mean they can't be called a 'Punk' band of course; depends really on how much they sound 'right'.

Terms change it is true - for example, a lot of what is termed Metal these days I think is more like Punk in attitude.  Bands change too - the Damned and Siouxsie are a great example of that.  They might have started in the Punk movement but changed direction over time.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 25, 2012)

Here's another classic from the Punk days - odd that people only really remember the safety pins and spitting and 'bad attitude' from the Punk era and forget that there was an awful lot of variation the bands:

[yt]LTKORcr1jhY[/yt]


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 25, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> You just stated the problem. You're only looking at it through your point of view, and refusing to recognize other people's point of view.



Is there a problem with that?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 25, 2012)

What I'm saying isn't that certain bands are punk and others aren't. People were arguing that hardcore punk bands weren't punk, because punk is purely for bands like the ramones or the sex pistols. I don't think that any band can be definitely declared NOT part of a genre in general, especially if they bands are just different subgenres of the same overall genre. A lot of it is open to interpretation, depending on how important you think attitude is over music, vice versa, which album you're going by, if the members of the bands changed, which time period you're referring to (similar to the albums thing), and above all whether YOU think they fall into that genre. If you do, then for you they do, but there's no reason to tell someone else that their music DOESN'T fall into that genre, since it's the same thing for them. If they believe it's punk, then to them it's punk. if you believe it's not punk, then to you it's not. It's way too much of a person-by-person thing for an argument about it to have any conclusive results.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 25, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> What I'm saying isn't that certain bands are punk and others aren't. People were arguing that hardcore punk bands weren't punk, because punk is purely for bands like the ramones or the sex pistols. I don't think that any band can be definitely declared NOT part of a genre in general, especially if they bands are just different subgenres of the same overall genre. A lot of it is open to interpretation, depending on how important you think attitude is over music, vice versa, which album you're going by, if the members of the bands changed, which time period you're referring to (similar to the albums thing), and above all whether YOU think they fall into that genre. If you do, then for you they do, but there's no reason to tell someone else that their music DOESN'T fall into that genre, since it's the same thing for them. If they believe it's punk, then to them it's punk. if you believe it's not punk, then to you it's not. It's way too much of a person-by-person thing for an argument about it to have any conclusive results.



Not open to interpretation.  Cows are cows, and horses are horses.  You can call a cow a 'subgenre' of a horse if you like, but you're going to look mighty funny riding it into town.  Things are what they are.  Relabeling everything to avoid giving offense is simply a PC way of saying 'no labels have meaning'.  Labels are labels for a reason.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 25, 2012)

Yes cows are cows and horses are horses, but that's not an accurate comparison. What you are saying is more like cows are animals, and cows are not horses, so therefore horses are not animals. Even though they are vastly different, they are both still animals, just different kinds of animals.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 25, 2012)

Although, even with that it's not an accurate comparison, because music is a concept, not an object.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 25, 2012)

HEY!!!!

In 1997 The Smashing Pumpkins were nominated for the AMA for the Favorite Heavy Metal/Hard Rock Artist and in 1997 AND 1998 won the Grammy for the Best Hard Rock Performance...:disgust: Did you hear me complaining?

Smashing Pumpkins are not Heavy Metal OR Hard Rock and you didnt hear me crying about it.. Green Day is not Punk. Is someone wants to call them punkWHO CARES!!!! Just shows they don't know what Punk is

Besides... even IF Green Day WAS Punk.. as soon as they apologized for Billie Joe Armstrongs outbreakthey were Punk NO MORE!!!!!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 25, 2012)

Also just want to add, as far as I know, I was the only person who called Green Day punk, and I clarified that I don't personally believe they're punk, was using the term for those who did believe that. So everyone saying they're not punk is preaching to the choir :boing2: But outside of that, thanks Xue Sheng, basically stated what I was trying to say in the entire thread xD


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 25, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> HEY!!!!
> 
> In 1997 The Smashing Pumpkins were nominated for the AMA for the Favorite Heavy Metal/Hard Rock Artist and in 1997 AND 1998 won the Grammy for the Best Hard Rock Performance...:disgust: Did you hear me complaining?



I recall being somewhat shocked when Jethro Tull won in that category as well.  I'm old.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1877498_1877438_1877489,00.html


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 25, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I recall being somewhat shocked when Jethro Tull won in that category as well.  I'm old.
> 
> http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1877498_1877438_1877489,00.html



As I recall Ian Anderson was rather shocked too... how old does that make me


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 25, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> Also just want to add, as far as I know, I was the only person who called Green Day punk, and I clarified that I don't personally believe they're punk, was using the term for those who did believe that. So everyone saying they're not punk is preaching to the choir :boing2: But outside of that, thanks Xue Sheng, basically stated what I was trying to say in the entire thread xD



Now if you want to say Billie Joe Armstrong is a Punk... then I would be inclined to agree


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 25, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Now if you want to say Billie Joe Armstrong is a Punk... then I would be inclined to agree


:s143:


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## oaktree (Sep 25, 2012)

Hardcore Punk is a term that was first started being used in the early 1980's and was put famous by DOA.
 Here is Ian Mackaye saying it himself what he plays. By the way Hardcore is short for Hardcore Punk.





http://www.silver-dragon-records.com/hardcore_punk.htm


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 25, 2012)

oaktree said:


> Hardcore Punk is a term that was first started being used in the early 1980's and was put famous by DOA.
> Here is Ian Mackaye saying it himself what he plays. By the way Hardcore is short for Hardcore Punk.
> 
> 
> ...



That's nice.  That's not what it was.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 25, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> That's nice.  That's not what it was.




I am not a Punk Rock aficionado and you may not consider Iggy Pop punk but he goes back to 1963.

The Ramones, Sex Pistols and Clash show up in the mid 70s.

Where do you feel Punk began?


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## elder999 (Sep 25, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> That's nice. That's not what it was.



:lfao:


I just want to say thanks to all for one of the most amusing and delightful discussions I've seen on MartialTalk in a long time....:lfao:...._What's 'punk'?_....:lfao:....takes me back......not even going to get into New York in the 70's and 80's....Lou Reed, Patti Smith, Velevet Underground, the Voidoids, Richard Hell, the Strokes,the Dictators, Talking Heads.....all shows I saw or did security for, got spat on and shat on......:lfao:

Hey, they were from Ohio, but, the Dead Boys:





Velvet Underground:






Richard Hell and the Voidoids:






Talking Heads, doing my theme song in 75:




there was no "New Wave," yet, so it was "punk," in spite of having a beat and a melody...:lfao:


_What's punk?_ WHen yer not making me feel *old*,you guys crack me up! :lfao:

Green Day? Who cares? The most punk thing he's done is smash his guitar, spit and give the finger.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 25, 2012)

I did a little searching online, since I'm curious now.  I know that no one in the 'scene' called punk 'hard core' or 'hardcore' punk back in the day.  But I wanted to be sure.

I see a couple references using Google Books.  In 1978, I found a reference in the Los Angeles Times to 

_"Bands, too, have begun running for cover. Many of the aggresive, hard-core punk units have adopted new battle slogans - power pop or new wave - and softened their stance. Punk is now a commercial liability. No one wants to be associated with it. Except the Clash.

"We're a punk rock band," boasts the Clash's Mick Jones. "We're true to the spirit of '76 (in England). When other bands saw what was happening, they thought punk was going to be the next 'big thing.' So they wanted in.

"Most of them were crap. They were just trying to cash in on what a few good people had started. But then the Pistols came over here and kinda flunked, so the rush to punk has skidded to a stop. The bands are rushing off somewhere else. Good riddance. We'll carry on. In a year, those other bands will be crawling back."''_

In the above reference, although the LA Times uses the term, they seem to be using it as a descriptor, not as a name.  Like saying I am a 'hard-core' IT worker.  There is no designation for that, it's just a modifier.  The use the term 'punk rock' repeatedly throughout the article, and do not use the term 'hard-core' again.

In 1981, Rolling Stone Magazine used the term thusly:

_"But instead of coming up with a mere handful of Nuggets, both Echo and the Bunnymen and the Teardrop Explodes strike solid rock by applying recent history &#8212; hard-core punk bash, the harmonic tangents of Public Image Ltd. and Joy Division, electronic pop à la Ultravox &#8212; to the sounds of yesteryear."_

Once again, the term seems to be used as a modifier, not a label.  And frankly, Echo and the Bunnymen, punk?  NO.

Billboard Magazine used the term once in 1982, referring to the Bad Brains as a _"Hard-core punk band from Washington, DC..."_  This is the first time I see the term used as a label, something that says it is a 'thing'.  And for all I know, Bad Brains could have referred to themselves that way - they were not a SoCal band, so I never saw them or heard much about them.

Cincinnati Magazine used the term in 1983, but they used it to refer to how college students were dressing, saying that "they don't go in for the hard-core punk look, that is, leather, chains, and studs."  So to them, apparently, 'hard-core' punk was a fashion trend that they didn't care for (their students, they said, were wearing madras prints).

Now, by 1984, the term was starting to pop up in various places, clearly referring to a genre.   Bands mentioned?  Metal Moo Cow, Cottage Cheese from the Lips of Death, a compilation CD called "Rat Music for Rat People," The Dead Kennedys, Throbbing Gristle, and independent record label "Savoy Records."

One reference I found was in Billboard from 1980, referring to an album I have and bands I listen to, Rodney on the ROQ Vol 1, referring to the music as "hardcore punk sounds," but classifying it under 'Pop Music'.  So I'm not sure what to make of that.

On the whole, if I had to venture a guess, it would be that the term 'hardcore' or 'hard-core' was a way to differentiate various types of sounds bands that were calling themselves 'punk' were making; applied first as a descriptor and only LATER as a label.  It's kind of like the Marines of WWI being known as the "Old Breed."  They certainly were not called that at the time.  That came later and was a label applied by others.

If one wants to refer to what was punk at the time I was going to the shows as 'hard core' punk, I guess I get it now; but I can assure you that neither I nor anyone I knew was calling it that at the time.  We called it punk and that is all we called it.  That someone else came up with a name for it later doesn't change what it was then.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 25, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am not a Punk Rock aficionado and you may not consider Iggy Pop punk but he goes back to 1963.
> 
> The Ramones, Sex Pistols and Clash show up in the mid 70s.
> 
> Where do you feel Punk began?



I think of Iggy and The MC5, the Fugs, and other bands of that type as 'proto-punk', but that's not what they called themselves then, so I do not call them that, I just think of them that way.  They certainly didn't call themselves that.  That's just a way to think of what came before punk and what probably fed into it to a large extent.  The Ramones were probably the last 'pre' punk band that didn't specifically call themselves a punk band, to the best of my knowledge.

I always felt that punk began in the UK, with bands like The Sex Pistols and The Clash, and then moved back to the US, where it was taken up in NY, DC, SoCal, Arizona, and lots of other places all more or less at once.  But punk was also regional.  The national acts were Black Flag, X, Bad Brains, etc, but the rest were mostly known on local labels, local radio stations, and at local venues.  In SoCal, I had the best seat in the house - KROQ was the station, the Whiskey A-Go-Go was the venue, Flipside was the fanzine.  If you couldn't be in NYC, then SoCal was where it was mostly happening at the time.

By the time I went overseas in 1983, the scene was nearly dead.  By the time I got back in 1984, it was over and done.  Sure Flipside was still around.  Sure, Rodney was still on KROQ.  But it was over and everybody knew it.  You could go by Oki-Dog at on Santa Monica Bvd if you wanted to, but no one would be there except people eating hot dogs.


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## oaktree (Sep 25, 2012)

:rofl::rofl::rofl: LOL The guy who was a member of Minor threat who helped Henry Rollins to do Black Flag and was his best friend who pretty much started the Straight Edge movement and is most likely one of the leading authorities on what Black Flag played what Minor Threat played and all the bands associated with them played called it *HARDCORE PUNK, not my words his words.*Bill you may have been there but Ian is one of the people who founded it and he says Hardcore Punk so maybe he and Black Flag are Hardcore Punk.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 25, 2012)

Hard core punk my *** :lol:.  Get in line late comers .

Meantime, this may not be punk but it sure is awesome {and, no, it's not Metal either :lol:}:

[yt]tsO26Pgm6qI[/yt]


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## elder999 (Sep 25, 2012)

Some N.Y. "hardcore" punk:






Yep, it's those "Beastie Boys..." punk before they were rappers, dontcha know..... :lfao:


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 25, 2012)

elder999 said:


> :lfao:
> 
> 
> I just want to say thanks to all for one of the most amusing and delightful discussions I've seen on MartialTalk in a long time....:lfao:...._What's 'punk'?_....:lfao:....takes me back......not even going to get into New York in the 70's and 80's....Lou Reed, Patti Smith, Velevet Underground, the Voidoids, Richard Hell, the Strokes,the Dictators, Talking Heads.....all shows I saw or did security for, got spat on and shat on......:lfao:
> ...



I never got into punk much, I listened to Velvet Underground, Iggy Pop, Clash and a few others but I was never a big fan and I never went to a show and I am not all that upset I didn&#8217;t. Now you want to talk Metal and I can take you back to the 60s pretty easy, although I really did not get into it until the mid 70s, to young before that.


Although these days I listen to more Mozart than Motorhead


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## Sukerkin (Sep 25, 2012)

I am genuinely puzzled that bands like the Velvet Underground are being roped in to a chat about Punk.  Iggy I can understand - some of his attitude definitely fits the 'ethos' but VU .


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## oaktree (Sep 25, 2012)

Oh now You finally see the difference of *
PUNK ROCK AND HARDCORE PUNK. I mean dude they even sound different.

I mean Gorilla Biscuits and The Clash are way different one is Punk Rock and the other is Hardcore Punk a sub genre. 
 Let's look it from a Hip Hop perspective. You have Hip Hop from the 80's which which with the MC who was more into rapping during the breaks
and hype. Later on you have the battle MC who was into MC battles or rap battles. You have then go into sub genres like Booty, Dirty south, Gangsta Rap, Conscious Hip Hop/Political Hip hop. It is all Hip Hop and people will say oh Lil Wayne is Hip hop and he is but he is a particular style, flavor or hip hop. His Hip hop is not the same as The Roots because they have a different sub genre.

You know that Rock has multiple genres Chuck Berry and Cannibal Corpse are way apart but they are in the rock section not the classical or Jazz section. To really appreciate the music you need to know were it is coming from what makes it different from other genres.

Like Martial arts is the whole but it is the distinct characters that make something Karate, Judo and so on.

Anyway at the end of the day it doesn't matter this debate of what is Punk or not has been going on for decades lol.*


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## elder999 (Sep 25, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> I am genuinely puzzled that bands like the Velvet Underground are being roped in to a chat about Punk. Iggy I can understand - some of his attitude definitely fits the 'ethos' but VU .



Glad ya asked that, Mark-speaks to the entire argument, that does.

In NY, in the 70's, that's how Lou Reed and company _defined themselves, _and that's the scene they were part of-didn't matter that they could play.....of course, their drummer only had one beat, and they couldn't really sing......sort of proto-punk like the MC5.......Lou Reed's post VU career was punk_ish_, and, again, that's how the ******* defined himself-among other.._erm_ *things*....but without VU's and Lou Reed's influence you don't get Iggy, or Patti Smith, or Television-the list goes on, and on, and on.....without VU, you get no Sex Pistols-get it?


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## Sukerkin (Sep 25, 2012)

:grins:  No, not really.  If I was drawing a mental 'family tree' of Punk then none of those bands are in it.  Punk was a revocation of the British music scene of the early to mid 70's.  It was a rejection of both the chart music of the time and of the established rock and progressive scenes.

[yt]ZkgWdUDLWRM[/yt]

[yt]tCaJOvpQuTA[/yt]

Having said that, in searching for some history of punk clips I did notice that VU and Patti Smith did show up in the side bar .  Iggy gets a mention early on by the way .  Sorry for the horrid quality - don't know why this low res vid is so bad to download.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 25, 2012)

Interesting related video by one of my heroes, the late John Peel:

[yt]2FIrWHpgGxw[/yt]


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## elder999 (Sep 25, 2012)

Rumor has it that on his return from New York in 1975, Malcom McClaren, their manager, had the band that would become the Sex Pistols practice Velvet Underground covers.......of course, the Sex Pistols were also directly influenced by NY punk bands like the Ramones. The way I've always understood it, "punk" kind of started in New York, and was brought to the British scene from the U.S.,_just like the rest of rock music _, (ducks for cover, laughing,.....:lfao: )


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 25, 2012)

oaktree said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl: LOL The guy who was a member of Minor threat who helped Henry Rollins to do Black Flag and was his best friend who pretty much started the Straight Edge movement and is most likely one of the leading authorities on what Black Flag played what Minor Threat played and all the bands associated with them played called it *HARDCORE PUNK, not my words his words.*Bill you may have been there but Ian is one of the people who founded it and he says Hardcore Punk so maybe he and Black Flag are Hardcore Punk.



The video was made recently.  It's the word he uses NOW to describe what happened THEN.  No one called it that then; I'd wager he didn't call it that either.

You can't retrofit history to make it seem like something happened that didn't.  We did not call punk anything but punk in the day. Not me, not him, nobody.  Simple as that.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 25, 2012)

LOL @ Elder - you had better duck mate ... I have a particularly fluffy cushion here I can throw if I am pressed 

[yt]vvc03P9Z9YI[/yt]

Looks like I shall have to say that there seems to be two forms of Punk - one that I agree is punk and the other is American .


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 25, 2012)

I just can't see a post about Punk as being complete without












So do you think the sex pistols ever apologized for Johnny Rotten?


Yeah...  I be an old school metal head form the old days






It ain't punk but I can pretty much guarantee the other members of Motorhead never apologized for anything Lemmy did :lfao:


Green Day...pfhht... bunch of pansies


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## elder999 (Sep 25, 2012)

Here ya go, 1975-before the Sex Pistols _were_ the Sex Pistols:






And 1977, London, a show attended by future members of Siouxie and the Banshees, the Clash, and the Sex Pistols.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 25, 2012)

OK... I admit it.... I liked the Ramones :EG:


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