# Why so nasty?



## Apache26b (Nov 13, 2011)

Ok. So all I hear about when I read through this place is people trashing dvd training. I will agree up front that someone who has never trained before can't learn from scratch and get it all right. But what about folks like me? I spent 7.5 years in the ARMY moving around and subsequently moving from dojo to dojo. I have trained in Kali, shatokan, kajukenbo, jkd, and danzan ryu juijitsu. But not a black belt in anything. I must live where I am due to being close to my doctors at the VA and my kids. The only two schools near me teach tae won do and some Korean karate that the instructor "founded". I don't so much have a problem with that as I do the defense only attitude of the style. I am used to more aggressive martial arts. So my chooses are to move, which I can not do because of my situation. Train in a style I do not believe in. Or do distance training. But from what you all are saying if I do earn a black belt this way I should consider myself a second rate member of the martial arts community. Is that about right? Or have I miss read the hundreds of posts I have seen?


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## WC_lun (Nov 13, 2011)

You need an experienced instructor to guide you and you need quality training partners.  It is very, very, difficult to spot bad habits you are forming by yourself.  It is impossible to train out those bad habits if you do not know they are there.  Skills that are untested are pretty much theorycraft and very unreliable when you need those skills for real.  There is a huge difference from seeing techniques on a dvd or reading about them in a book and actualy feeling how they work, or maybe just as importantly, feeling when they don't work.  You need quality training partners for these things.

It sucks that you are in a situation that does not allow you to study at a training hall you feel is right for you.  DvDs and such can help you keep your interest up and help you keep your mind working on martial arts.  In no way is it a substitute for an experienced instructor though.  In my opinion, anyone that wants to sell you a black belt through DvDs, books, or Youtube is just ripping you off.  Save your money until you can study at a place you feel comfortable with.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 13, 2011)

Hmm. First off, I don't think anyone here has ever really been "nasty" about DVD programs and their ilk, nor have they "trashed" them, but have given honest opinions of such training methods. And that opinion is rather universal amongst serious and experienced martial artists, namely that it just isn't a good idea. There are just too many issues with vital pieces of the instruction missing, correction not really being possible, and more. And the sad reality of such things are that if you aren't in a position to learn an art, then you aren't in a position to learn an art. You then have two choices; either move to where you can learn it and change your circumstances to allow it, or accept that you can't learn it at this point in time. That's not nasty, it's just reality. Think of it like attending Harvard - unless you are living near Harvard, you can't attend it. You can attend other universities, but not that one. And that is something that is not nasty, it's reality.

DVDs and books form good supplements to actual instruction, but cannot take the place of actual instruction by themselves. The big issue here, though, isn't whether or not DVD learning is a good idea or not, it's whether you can accept other people's opinions and what the reality of the situation is. You've just arrived on this site, resurrected a thread on "Nasty Instructors" 9 years after the last post to complain about someone who took you for a ride (a negative thread and post), and started this one, which is a complaint and negative statement on this entire site, as there is not much support for your approach. I kinda hate to be so blunt, but frankly, deal with it.

If you do not have access to the system you wish to study, you don't have access to the system you wish to study. That's really the long and the short of it. DVD learning is a poor substitute at best.


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## rainesr (Nov 13, 2011)

Apache26b said:


> Ok. So all I hear about when I read through this place is people trashing dvd training. I will agree up front that someone who has never trained before can't learn from scratch and get it all right. But what about folks like me? I spent 7.5 years in the ARMY moving around and subsequently moving from dojo to dojo. I have trained in Kali, shatokan, kajukenbo, jkd, and danzan ryu juijitsu. But not a black belt in anything. I must live where I am due to being close to my doctors at the VA and my kids.


I have been in your situation, I was in the USAF. I had to study at mutiple schools and after years of training had no black belt, though I had four white belts. It is very frustrating. Have you looked outside your travel range and maybe considered once a month one on one meetings with an instructor. It is not optimal but it may be better than taking something you are not happy with, especialy if you are motivated to work on your own. I did this once and it turned out to be a good experience.

I have used DVDs, but I only had them for forms that had been studing for nearly 10 years, from the perspective of three instructors, I had a solid base in my art and I had a training partner who also knew and understood these forms. I never tried to learn completely new techniques, forms, and definately not a style without an instructor. DVDs were only used to keep me sharp with what I already knew.

 The bad habits you will inadvertantly learn are not worth the time it will take to undo them.

~Rob


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## The Last Legionary (Nov 13, 2011)

I have yet to find a dvd player that can give good feedback on how my form looked, or if I had my feet in the right spots. If you don't understand the importance of having someone tell you if you're doing it right, you are condemned to memorizing errors which later are very hard to 'unlearn'.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 13, 2011)

Apache26b said:


> But from what you all are saying if I do earn a black belt this way I should consider myself a second rate member of the martial arts community. Is that about right? Or have I miss read the hundreds of posts I have seen?



I think you have misread it, especially here on MT.

I will leave the discussion of distance-learning to others; it appears that you understand it is not optimal training, but that is the situation you find yourself in.  Others in this thread have repeated what has been said before; it's not optimal without feedback from a live instructor.

However regarding what one may consider oneself; that's a horse of a different color.  Here on MT, I think we strive not to judge others.  We all know that what one discipline considers a 'black belt' is not the same as what another considers a 'black belt'.  We could argue about that forever; and it does not just involve distance learning; many of us have personal opinions about other styles and methods and what they ultimately mean to training.  We even have arguments about training for competition or sport versus training for self-defense, training with weapons versus empty-handed training, and so on and so on.

Ultimately, 'black belt' has very little meaning outside of one's own style.  Who is a 'second rate member'?  No one, on MT.  We're all treated with the respect we're due based on how we behave here and how we treat others.

Some of our members, I have no doubt, do not train at all.  Perhaps they have never trained.  Perhaps they trained long ago and no longer train.  Some teach.  Some are students.  Some are engaging in Walter Mitty fantasies.  Oh well.  Some don't disclose what training they have or what discipline they train in.  If they behave themselves and treat the rest of us with respect, they're treated with respect.

If you want to take on a challenge, go ahead with your distance learning and show us how you apply it.  Tell us about your experiences and what you think it means to you, how it affects you and your idea of how your training is worth your time, effort, and money.  We've never had anyone do that here, to the best of my knowledge.  What we have had here are people who show up, ask about our opinion of distance learning for martial arts, dozens of us post our generally-negative opinions of it, they go away and never come back.  Are they training anyway?  Did they take our advice?  Is the general wisdom wrong?  We have no idea.  So show us!

Bottom line; welcome to Martial Talk.  Treat others with respect and you'll be respected.  No one can tell you what a black belt means; it's subjective, not objective.  Ultimately, if the training you get works for you, you like it, you keep at it, and you feel you've invested your time, effort, and money wisely, then it's worth it - for you.  We'll listen; talk to us.


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2011)

Apache26b said:


> Ok. So all I hear about when I read through this place is people trashing dvd training. I will agree up front that someone who has never trained before can't learn from scratch and get it all right. But what about folks like me? I spent 7.5 years in the ARMY moving around and subsequently moving from dojo to dojo. I have trained in Kali, shatokan, kajukenbo, jkd, and danzan ryu juijitsu. But not a black belt in anything. I must live where I am due to being close to my doctors at the VA and my kids. The only two schools near me teach tae won do and some Korean karate that the instructor "founded". I don't so much have a problem with that as I do the defense only attitude of the style. I am used to more aggressive martial arts. So my chooses are to move, which I can not do because of my situation. Train in a style I do not believe in. Or do distance training. But from what you all are saying if I do earn a black belt this way I should consider myself a second rate member of the martial arts community. Is that about right? Or have I miss read the hundreds of posts I have seen?



IMHO, I think if someone asks a question, its best to give them an honest, up front, non sugar coated answer.  Thats what I do.  Some will be offended by that, some wont.  To each his own.  I give a suggestion....which is find a quality teacher.  I can't force someone to do that, so if they want to buy a dvd and attempt to learn from it, then it is what it is.  

I have a few instructional dvds, however, they're in arts that I've trained in.  I've never done TKD, so I'm not going to buy a TKD dvd and attempt to learn from that, when I'll no doubt, be missing numerous fine points.  Instead, I'd get myself to a TKD school.  IMO, if I was in your situation, I'd rather get in some training where/when I can, at a dojo, with a teacher who can teach me.  How often are you on the move?  Are you settled in one place?  If so, for how long?  Have you researched any schools in your area and the surrounding area?  How far are you willing to travel to train?  If there was a school that was 1 1/2 hrs 1 way, would you go?  Personally, if there was a school that was 90min away, I'd rather get in some quality training, and see if you could fit in some private lessons.  

I've been training for 26yrs.  Could I pick up a TKD dvd and learn from it?  Yeah, maybe, and that'd only be because of the length of time that I've already put in.  I mean, the main difference will probably be application of the moves, but OTOH, I'm still going to be missing the fine points that are not on the dvd.  

Good luck with whatever path you decide to choose.


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## Apache26b (Nov 13, 2011)

Mr. Parker I am new to forums. I did not realise that I was reviving a 9 year old discussion. I will try and pay closer attention in the future. And I realise my opening post may have come off as a bit hostile. So if you or anyone else was offended by it I apologise.


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## Apache26b (Nov 13, 2011)

Mr. Mattocks thank you sir. I believe you understood what I was asking better than some. I was talking to the view of the person more than the view of the training method. It seems the meer mention of dvd's gets someone a slap on the hand and 5 minutes in the corner with the dunce hat. Lol Maybe the reason that others who have asked didn't return was because they felt like they wouldn't have been respected at all. Yes I completely realise that this is not the best way to learn. BY FAR. But you do what you can. As for the idea of an experiment I am game. Once I get started I will post updates, if you are really interested in reading them. By the way I will be training with two training partners who are both experienced martial artist. And thank you for the welcome.


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## Apache26b (Nov 13, 2011)

rainesr said:


> I have been in your situation, I was in the USAF. I had to study at mutiple schools and after years of training had no black belt, though I had four white belts. It is very frustrating. Have you looked outside your travel range and maybe considered once a month one on one meetings with an instructor. It is not optimal but it may be better than taking something you are not happy with, especialy if you are motivated to work on your own. I did this once and it turned out to be a good experience.I have used DVDs, but I only had them for forms that had been studing for nearly 10 years, from the perspective of three instructors, I had a solid base in my art and I had a training partner who also knew and understood these forms. I never tried to learn completely new techniques, forms, and definately not a style without an instructor. DVDs were only used to keep me sharp with what I already knew. The bad habits you will inadvertantly learn are not worth the time it will take to undo them. ~Rob


No I had not thought about that. After reading your post I looked and there is a Kajukenbo school 3 hours from me. I will contact the instructor and see if they would do something like that and if so if I can afford it. Thank you.


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## Apache26b (Nov 14, 2011)

Thank you sir. I believe you understood what I was asking better than some. I was talking to the view of the person more than the view of the training method. It seems the meer mention of dvd's gets someone a slap on the hand and 5 minutes in the corner with the dunce hat. Lol Maybe the reason that others who have asked didn't return because they felt like they wouldn't have been respected as equals.  Yes I completely realise that this is not the best way to learn. BY FAR. As for the idea of an experiment I am game. Once I get started I will post updates, if you are really interested in reading them. By the way I will be training with two training partners who are both experienced martial artist. And thank you for the welcome.


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## punisher73 (Nov 14, 2011)

I don't think people are against dvds as a whole, but what their use is.  You mentioned that you have experience in a few different styles as you moved around.  Do you have a particular dvd set in mind based on your previous training?  Are you looking at something new altogether?  

What is your ultimate goal?


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 14, 2011)

Apache26b said:


> It seems the meer mention of dvd's gets someone a slap on the hand and 5 minutes in the corner with the dunce hat.



That is probably because the question gets asked a lot here (and I presume, on other such forums as well).  If some folks sound angry, it's probably that they're frustrated.  The typical exchange looks something like this:



> Q: Hi!  I'm new here, 17 years old, keen to start learning, but I don't want to drive anywhere or invest any time in training, and I don't really like to sweat either.  So I was wondering, if I bought this DVD I found in the back of a martial arts magazine, will it really work?  My buddy and I are going to go in together on it and we'll train really hard.
> 
> A: No, it probably won't work well.  First, many of these DVDs are put together by charlatans who would happily award a black belt to a small shrubbery if the check cleared.  Second, without feedback from a qualified instructor, you are quite likely to learn very bad habits that will become difficult if not impossible to unlearn later if you get 'real' in-person training.  Third, the DVD will most likely get about as much use as your stationary bicycle that is down in the basement next to washing machine and is now used as a hanger for clothes.  You'll fart around with it for a couple months, watch some martial arts movies, decide you've mastered it, get your 'black belt' in the mail, and move on to the next shiny thing to catch your eye.  Why don't you find a local martial arts studio and invest your time and money into some real training?
> 
> ...



I'm exaggerating a bit, but not that much; typical exchanges really do look like this quite often.  So I can see where you're coming from; it looks from the outside like we're a bunch of mean people who just hate the idea of someone being able to learn from a DVD (or a book, that gets asked sometimes too).  If it seems we send newbies to the corner for five minutes for mentioning DVD training, it's because the typical exchange is so common, and so predictable.  Not your fault, you didn't know that!

You say you have trained, so you must know that, and as you stated, you're aware of the limitations DVD training videos.  You may note that many of us on MT have said that DVD's can make *good supplements* to actual training.  If you can make that work for you, I think that's great.  I do not belittle you in any way for that.



> As for the idea of an experiment I am game. Once I get started I will post updates, if you are really interested in reading them. By the way I will be training with two training partners who are both experienced martial artist. And thank you for the welcome.



We are always interested in this kind of thing.  There is a 'members in motion' forum here where users post videos of themselves, and often seek feedback, or you can post on Youtube and post a link to it here.  You will have to have a hard shell; when you ask for feedback, you get it, and sometimes people can be a bit rough.  But lots of folks here will offer you heartfelt, positive, feedback based on their experience and you may find it helpful to you.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 14, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> What is your ultimate goal?



I think that is an outstanding question.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 14, 2011)

Its a Question of Quality.
Learning with an Instructor and Different Partners will have a Better Result than DVDs.
With sufficient Prequisites though, Learning like this is Valid, and will have a Good Result.

Its a matter of what it is You want, exactly.


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## jasonbrinn (Nov 14, 2011)

[the sound of a can being opened in the background]

I have trained the martial arts for over 30 years.  I have had many instructors and attended many seminars.  I have spent decades plus with the same instructors and we are all really good friends at this point on many levels.  I have also been a HUGE instructional DVD collector.  My collection of instructional DVDs was somewhere in the 500-600 range.  I say was because I traded most of my videos with a friend of mine that runs a rental service specifically for martial arts videos.

Its NOT the shoes (from the old Nike commercials where they'd state "its gotta be the shoes").  It is NOT the DVD that is the problem, assuming it is done well, it is the person using the DVD.

I must honestly say that it is my opinion that a good instructional DVD is ALWAYS better for instruction of learning a martial art then a physical instructor.  Now, before you fire up your keyboards...notice that I said LEARNING a martial art.  When it comes to application of a martial art a physical instructor is the ONLY chance for the student to progress IMO.  

A DVD, when done right, is well thought out.  The instructor of the DVD spends a lot of time thinking over what to film and what to say and those carefully applied thoughts are captured in time in that video for the diligent student to hear, re-hear and hear again.  You just don't get that in a class 9-10 times.  Plus you get to see the techniques done by the BEST and then broken down.  How do we learn for the most part, by seeing!  DVDs are not only an exceptional way to learn but they cut the curve down by a long shot!

I have not only seen people learn from DVDs and out perform people who learned traditionally but I have been a personal witness to it.  Besides this form of training has been an integral part of the martial arts since they began.  What is forms training and what's the purpose if not the same as DVD instruction?  What about manuals, which in the Chinese traditions was THE way they were taught in the beginning and still continue to be taught today?  

I can understand people from the military not having a good understanding about the controversy as I was in the military myself.  The military uses manuals to supplement and extend training and it has shown excellent results and has become a completely accepted process.

Bottom line here though is if a student is not dedicated and determined to rightly apply themselves it won't matter whether it is a physical instructor or a DVD they are just not going to get it.


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## punisher73 (Nov 14, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Its a Question of Quality.
> Learning with an Instructor and Different Partners will have a Better Result than DVDs.
> With sufficient Prequisites though, Learning like this is Valid, and will have a Good Result.
> 
> Its a matter of what it is You want, exactly.



Why is learning with an instructor better than a dvd?  What if the style you want and found in your town is REALLY bad and just runs a Mcdojo and doesn't offer much criticism because he wants you to be happy and keep showing up?  What if your training partners had prior and similar experience in martial arts.  You get a dvd set put out by a GREAT instructor in that style that breaks down everything step by step and you video yourself and compare it until you match what is on the dvd and then go hands on with drills with your training partners.  Who do you REALLY think is going to be better?

Just playing devil's advocate here...


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 14, 2011)

jasonbrinn said:


> I must honestly say that it is my opinion that a good instructional DVD is ALWAYS better for instruction of learning a martial art then a physical instructor.  Now, before you fire up your keyboards...notice that I said LEARNING a martial art.  When it comes to application of a martial art a physical instructor is the ONLY chance for the student to progress IMO.



I do not understand what you mean by _'learning'_ versus _'application'_.  I can read a book with pictures that describes how a particular kata is done in the style in which I train.  I have a couple of them, in fact.

So let's say I consult my book and it shows me how to perform Kata A, and I skip merrily on down to my dojo and tell Sensei that I have 'learned' Kata A, with no help from him.  He says "OK, let's see it."   I proceed to perform it.  Badly.

Sensei notes that my balance is wrong.  My breathing is wrong.  My feet are wrong.  My timing and speed are wrong. I'm not rooted where I should be rooted, and I'm rooted where I should be mobile.  My strikes are not to the correct points, my blocks are ineffective, and my fight line is all messed up.  In addition, the book shows the steps of Kata A slightly differently than my dojo performs Kata A.  What I have 'learned' is a set of steps that are incorrect, which I perform incorrectly.

In what way can I be said to have learned anything?

Now, alternatively, let's say that I learn Kata A in the dojo, and as I practice at home, I consult my book, noting that there are some few differences between the way the photos show the kata and the way we do it in our dojo, and keeping in my mind the breathing, speed, and other nuances I have been taught, I practice using the book to refresh my memory if I get stuck.

To me, the book (or video) is a great training aid if used correctly.  However, I not only don't think it is a good primary training method, I don't understand the difference between _'learning'_ and _'application'_ as you are using them.  If you mean that I can 'memorize the steps' in a particular move or kata, then yes, I suppose I can.  But that memorization is about 10% of what's required to be able to use it, as I'm sure you know.  And by itself with no feedback, IMHO it's actually detrimental.

I am prepared to be proven wrong; but I have not seen anything to date that would convince me of it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 14, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Why is learning with an instructor better than a dvd?  What if the style you want and found in your town is REALLY bad and just runs a Mcdojo and doesn't offer much criticism because he wants you to be happy and keep showing up?  What if your training partners had prior and similar experience in martial arts.  You get a dvd set put out by a GREAT instructor in that style that breaks down everything step by step and you video yourself and compare it until you match what is on the dvd and then go hands on with drills with your training partners.  Who do you REALLY think is going to be better?
> 
> Just playing devil's advocate here...



I see lots of photos of upper body blocks in my books.  I've seen a lot of them in videos on Youtube.  I never understood the difference between an effective an an ineffective upper body block until I had a partner, in a dojo, throwing blows at me with my Sensei correcting my form by tiny little increments until one day, it just 'happened' that I could not only see the punch coming, get my block up in time, but also absorb and channel the energy in a way that didn't hurt me to take a powerful blow.  To me, that's the core of the art, and it isn't something I've seen in a book or video.  How to throw a block, yes.  How to set the block and take the blow, no.  That happened after being hit about eleventy-hundred times by different partners at different speeds and force, with correction and feedback on the spot.  I know how a good block feels; that is what you learn in the dojo.


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## Guvnor (Nov 14, 2011)

DVDs are OK but by no means a substitute for training.  They help reinforce or refresh the memory.  Just my view.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 14, 2011)

Apache26b said:


> Ok. So all I hear about when I read through this place is people trashing dvd training. I will agree up front that someone who has never trained before can't learn from scratch and get it all right. But what about folks like me? I spent 7.5 years in the ARMY moving around and subsequently moving from dojo to dojo. I have trained in Kali, shatokan, kajukenbo, jkd, and danzan ryu juijitsu. But not a black belt in anything. I must live where I am due to being close to my doctors at the VA and my kids. The only two schools near me teach tae won do and some Korean karate that the instructor "founded". I don't so much have a problem with that as I do the defense only attitude of the style. I am used to more aggressive martial arts. So my chooses are to move, which I can not do because of my situation. Train in a style I do not believe in. Or do distance training. But from what you all are saying if I do earn a black belt this way I should consider myself a second rate member of the martial arts community. Is that about right? Or have I miss read the hundreds of posts I have seen?



You spent time in the ARMY. 

What did you do?

Where your a shooter?

Where you a medic?

Where you Technical?

Where you MP?

If you were a shooter, think of all your training, and no go play one of these shooter games that allows you to sniper scope with a 1857 colt, or to use a grappling hook to drag yourself across the ground to run or move faster. While it might be fun, is this anything like your training? 

If you were a medic, did you get your training by being in class and working on people or watching the shows on TV and then assuming that all the emergencies can be handled by calling out for CBC?

If technical then you trained on equipment. If Comms try doing your work with a branch does it really allow you to tune in a frequency? If missile guidance try hitting something a mile away by throwing a rock. 

If a MP can you do crowd control or grab people for arrest while you are not at the same location as the bad people. 


If you already know something and you are going back to watch something to see a good practitioners hand placement and then you have people to work with you can try it. 



Now as to local schools, I have an issue here. Most people look for something within 5 minutes maybe 20 minutes from their home. If longer they say it is too far away, I have no options. Well Driving an hour or two one way for an hour of good instruction in the art or system or with an instructor you want is better than doing something you do not like or going it alone. 

So the question I have to ask, is how serious are you? How important is this? If it is nothing more that it is not easy so I want to do the easy route than look at yourself. If it is an issue of cost be it cash or time, then you have to understand where you are at and understand you cannot afford it. Then if you choose to learn by video only understand the issues and problems with that method of training. Go in with an open mind and looking at yourself and the truth of the situation.  Also one can look for underground and garage training. Hit the forums, talk to the locals and see if they know someone who might know someone who is teaching out of their garage or basement or ... , . 

Good Luck


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## jasonbrinn (Nov 14, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I do not understand what you mean by _'learning'_ versus _'application'_.  I can read a book with pictures that describes how a particular kata is done in the style in which I train.  I have a couple of them, in fact.
> 
> So let's say I consult my book and it shows me how to perform Kata A, and I skip merrily on down to my dojo and tell Sensei that I have 'learned' Kata A, with no help from him.  He says "OK, let's see it."   I proceed to perform it.  Badly.
> 
> ...



Agree.  I don't advocate learning from a book or DVD as the primary or initial source for qualified instruction.  I do advocate it as supplemental and a good resource for proper context as well as to serve as quality control for what you are learning first hand.  There are A LOT of good meaning and honest instructors teaching junk they were taught that just defies logic as well as basic science.  I think good reference material in the form of a book or DVD can equipment the student to ask better questions and assimilate information better as well.

With that being said, once someone has learned the basics (proper balance, weight transfer, generation of power, etc, etc.) then learning a new style can be greatly enhanced and dramatic amounts of time can be cut through the use of books or DVDs in the hands of an honest practitioner IMO.

I have actually had great instructors that I trained under put out DVDs and then while watching them I heard them say something or point something out that they never did for me in class making a world of difference.  When I went to them and told them about it they simply said "oh yeah, I guess I should mention that more in class."  It was merely the way they thought about teaching over video that brought the point to their mind and nothing more.

I have tons of examples but I guess the end result seems to be that we all agree for the most part.  Training is best when under the best circumstances.

Lastly, I have always said to my students and friends that we should judge a martial artist only by what they do.  You can only learn what a person knows on the mat IMO.  I think as a community we should embrace people that take up books and DVDs as people that are generally honest and eager to learn and give them every benefit of the doubt then energetically "water" those seeds through actual mat time.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 14, 2011)

jasonbrinn said:


> Agree.  I don't advocate learning from a book or DVD as the primary or initial source for qualified instruction.  I do advocate it as supplemental and a good resource for proper context as well as to serve as quality control for what you are learning first hand.  There are A LOT of good meaning and honest instructors teaching junk they were taught that just defies logic as well as basic science.  I think good reference material in the form of a book or DVD can equipment the student to ask better questions and assimilate information better as well.
> 
> With that being said, once someone has learned the basics (proper balance, weight transfer, generation of power, etc, etc.) then learning a new style can be greatly enhanced and dramatic amounts of time can be cut through the use of books or DVDs in the hands of an honest practitioner IMO.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with any of that.  I'd just hate to see a person who only trained using a video who had to apply his or her knowledge in a self-defense scenario get pummeled because what they thought they knew was not what they knew.


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## mook jong man (Nov 14, 2011)

Just try learning Chi Sau through a video , it would be impossible. I'm talking real Chi Sau that acts like shield against any strike trying to get in , not just trying to mimic the arm movements and hope for the best. You can only learn it properly through direct arm on arm contact with a qualified Wing Chun instructor.


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## Apache26b (Nov 14, 2011)

Rich Parsons said:


> You spent time in the ARMY. What did you do?Where your a shooter?Where you a medic?Where you Technical?Where you MP?If you were a shooter, think of all your training, and no go play one of these shooter games that allows you to sniper scope with a 1857 colt, or to use a grappling hook to drag yourself across the ground to run or move faster. While it might be fun, is this anything like your training? If you were a medic, did you get your training by being in class and working on people or watching the shows on TV and then assuming that all the emergencies can be handled by calling out for CBC?If technical then you trained on equipment. If Comms try doing your work with a branch does it really allow you to tune in a frequency? If missile guidance try hitting something a mile away by throwing a rock. If a MP can you do crowd control or grab people for arrest while you are not at the same location as the bad people. If you already know something and you are going back to watch something to see a good practitioners hand placement and then you have people to work with you can try it. Now as to local schools, I have an issue here. Most people look for something within 5 minutes maybe 20 minutes from their home. If longer they say it is too far away, I have no options. Well Driving an hour or two one way for an hour of good instruction in the art or system or with an instructor you want is better than doing something you do not like or going it alone. So the question I have to ask, is how serious are you? How important is this? If it is nothing more that it is not easy so I want to do the easy route than look at yourself. If it is an issue of cost be it cash or time, then you have to understand where you are at and understand you cannot afford it. Then if you choose to learn by video only understand the issues and problems with that method of training. Go in with an open mind and looking at yourself and the truth of the situation.  Also one can look for underground and garage training. Hit the forums, talk to the locals and see if they know someone who might know someone who is teaching out of their garage or basement or ... , . Good Luck


I was an Infantry team leader and i taught classes om using the army's new gps units and blue force trackers. By the way we used a lot of videos and computer training to do that with. And don't you think at least a few of your examples were just a tad bit obserd? I was talking to a friend of mine at the hospital i work at and one of the docters was in the room. He said he has a friend who is a brain sergion. You know how they pass along new tequnices? No they don't all meet in the brain sewing dojo and practice on brains. They watch films (evil dvd's) lol. Like the man said you can't learn to be a sergion by watching dvd's. But you can learn new procedures that way. I think if they can figure out how to stitch up someone's nuget that way someone with a good background and a good training partner can learn martial arts. Yes even whatever deadly and misterious art you know. As for your "issue" with my distance from any good schools, other than the 2 I already mentioned the closest school from me is 2 hours one way. I am a dissabled vet so springing for that kinda money is kinda out of the question for me. Unless you would like to chip in. Lol And that last patagraph. Lol WOW Are you trying to keep me off drugs or dvd's? That sounds like something from an after school special. Look at your self and realise where you are, my question to you is how important is thos to you. Very melodromatic. 
If you will look back at my posts I am not new to the martial arts at all. I do have expierianced partners to work with. And my question was by no meens what was anyone's opinion of dvd training. It was why are folks who ask about it almost always beraited with anything but encouragement. I have been an assistant instructor at more than one schools. I don't mean to come off as rude but I don't need and didn't ask for anyone's opinion. I just wondeted why the mention of them makes everyone so mean and mad. It's like that person training in that manner robs the ones who go to the dojo of something. As for questioning me if I am taking the easy way out you don't know me so I will try and not take that as the insult I usualy do. But I asure you it isn't that. And don't get too ticked at my quips at ya. I'm just trying to keep the mood as light as possible. Some folks seem to get pretty mad about this subject.


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## Apache26b (Nov 14, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I do not understand what you mean by _'learning'_ versus _'application'_.  I can read a book with pictures that describes how a particular kata is done in the style in which I train.  I have a couple of them, in fact.So let's say I consult my book and it shows me how to perform Kata A, and I skip merrily on down to my dojo and tell Sensei that I have 'learned' Kata A, with no help from him.  He says "OK, let's see it."   I proceed to perform it.  Badly.Sensei notes that my balance is wrong.  My breathing is wrong.  My feet are wrong.  My timing and speed are wrong. I'm not rooted where I should be rooted, and I'm rooted where I should be mobile.  My strikes are not to the correct points, my blocks are ineffective, and my fight line is all messed up.  In addition, the book shows the steps of Kata A slightly differently than my dojo performs Kata A.  What I have 'learned' is a set of steps that are incorrect, which I perform incorrectly.In what way can I be said to have learned anything?Now, alternatively, let's say that I learn Kata A in the dojo, and as I practice at home, I consult my book, noting that there are some few differences between the way the photos show the kata and the way we do it in our dojo, and keeping in my mind the breathing, speed, and other nuances I have been taught, I practice using the book to refresh my memory if I get stuck.To me, the book (or video) is a great training aid if used correctly.  However, I not only don't think it is a good primary training method, I don't understand the difference between _'learning'_ and _'application'_ as you are using them.  If you mean that I can 'memorize the steps' in a particular move or kata, then yes, I suppose I can.  But that memorization is about 10% of what's required to be able to use it, as I'm sure you know.  And by itself with no feedback, IMHO it's actually detrimental.I am prepared to be proven wrong; but I have not seen anything to date that would convince me of it.


OK so this may not be the perfict example (please excuse my many mis-spellings) but I have an example I think applies here. I had two different instructors try to teach me the 5 count sumbrada boxed flow or also called the full box. But I only got it after I sat down and watched a dvd on that spacific drill. Seeing over and over exactly the same way as many times as it took from the different angles that they showed is what finally made it click for me.


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## Apache26b (Nov 15, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> I don't think people are against dvds as a whole, but what their use is.  You mentioned that you have experience in a few different styles as you moved around.  Do you have a particular dvd set in mind based on your previous training?  Are you looking at something new altogether?  What is your ultimate goal?


My goal is to have something to do. And I won't deny that I would lile to have a black belt after all the training I have done. I have always believed that if I was going to go to the dojo and train when I walked out the door I would have left my heart on the mat. And I have always tried to do just that. I have left blood sweat and tears all on the mat on many ocasions. I know some guys who are as high as 2nd deg black belts and I can out perform them more often than not. They always say yeah man you should be a bb by now. You're good enough. But I don't have one. So yeah part of it is that, just once, I would like to have someone say you are that good. But mostly I am going to use it have something to do. I clean at the local va hospital for 4 hours a day. Other than that I pretty much sit and go stir crazy.


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## Apache26b (Nov 15, 2011)

jasonbrinn said:


> Agree.  I don't advocate learning from a book or DVD as the primary or initial source for qualified instruction.  I do advocate it as supplemental and a good resource for proper context as well as to serve as quality control for what you are learning first hand.  There are A LOT of good meaning and honest instructors teaching junk they were taught that just defies logic as well as basic science.  I think good reference material in the form of a book or DVD can equipment the student to ask better questions and assimilate information better as well.With that being said, once someone has learned the basics (proper balance, weight transfer, generation of power, etc, etc.) then learning a new style can be greatly enhanced and dramatic amounts of time can be cut through the use of books or DVDs in the hands of an honest practitioner IMO.I have actually had great instructors that I trained under put out DVDs and then while watching them I heard them say something or point something out that they never did for me in class making a world of difference.  When I went to them and told them about it they simply said "oh yeah, I guess I should mention that more in class."  It was merely the way they thought about teaching over video that brought the point to their mind and nothing more.I have tons of examples but I guess the end result seems to be that we all agree for the most part.  Training is best when under the best circumstances.Lastly, I have always said to my students and friends that we should judge a martial artist only by what they do.  You can only learn what a person knows on the mat IMO.  I think as a community we should embrace people that take up books and DVDs as people that are generally honest and eager to learn and give them every benefit of the doubt then energetically "water" those seeds through actual mat time.


Well said sir! Thank you!


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## Apache26b (Nov 15, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't disagree with any of that.  I'd just hate to see a person who only trained using a video who had to apply his or her knowledge in a self-defense scenario get pummeled because what they thought they knew was not what they knew.


But that's not what we are talking about in this situation though.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 15, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Why is learning with an instructor better than a dvd?
> 
> *Error Correction. Refinement. Application.*
> 
> ...



And We can Agree to Disagree should You so choose.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 15, 2011)

Apache26b said:


> OK so this may not be the perfict example (please excuse my many mis-spellings) but I have an example I think applies here. I had two different instructors try to teach me the 5 count sumbrada boxed flow or also called the full box. But I only got it after I sat down and watched a dvd on that spacific drill. Seeing over and over exactly the same way as many times as it took from the different angles that they showed is what finally made it click for me.



How would you know you had finally gotten it right without a live instructor to confirm it?


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## Cyriacus (Nov 15, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> How would you know you had finally gotten it right without a live instructor to confirm it?


Well, apparently Hes going to Video Tape Himself doing it, then Compare it to the Video.
Not My Words


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## MJS (Nov 15, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> I don't think people are against dvds as a whole, but what their use is.



This!!!  

IMO, you hit the nail on the head.  Its safe to say that this is my feeling.  As I said, I have a few.  Of course, the ones that I do have, I also have trained or currently do train in the respective art, vs. just picking up one of SKH's ToShinDo dvds, and trying to copy his moves.


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## punisher73 (Nov 15, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I see lots of photos of upper body blocks in my books. I've seen a lot of them in videos on Youtube. I never understood the difference between an effective an an ineffective upper body block until I had a partner, in a dojo, throwing blows at me with my Sensei correcting my form by tiny little increments until one day, it just 'happened' that I could not only see the punch coming, get my block up in time, but also absorb and channel the energy in a way that didn't hurt me to take a powerful blow. To me, that's the core of the art, and it isn't something I've seen in a book or video. How to throw a block, yes. How to set the block and take the blow, no. That happened after being hit about eleventy-hundred times by different partners at different speeds and force, with correction and feedback on the spot. I know how a good block feels; that is what you learn in the dojo.



Since I was playing devil's advocate, I will continue to do so. 

You are correct a GOOD dojo (as the one you study in) will takes lots of time off of your study and progression.  But, in my example, what if you don't have a good dojo?  I would argue that the instruction you get at yours from your description of kata is top notch to know those things.  Most people aren't aware of those things in kata and wouldn't be able to pass that stuff on anyways even with a live instructor.

Getting together and trading punches over and over with willing training partners will give more feedback than most people get in their own schools under a live person.  I completly agree that just watching a dvd or book will do nothing except give you some pretty choreography.  But, the intial poster stated that he had training partners with prior experience.


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## punisher73 (Nov 15, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> And We can Agree to Disagree should You so choose.



Nope, I agree with all of your points.  A good instructor is the best route to go.  If you don't have access to a good instructor and you have prior experience and training partners with prior experience, dvd's might be an viable option (original poster had both of those things).

I was playing devil's advocate because everyone always jumps on and says that an instructor and school is the best.  But, as you had to point out and defend there are caveats with that statement, such as, the instructor is good and the school is not a McDojo/Belt factory.


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## MJS (Nov 15, 2011)

jasonbrinn said:


> [the sound of a can being opened in the background]
> 
> I have trained the martial arts for over 30 years.  I have had many instructors and attended many seminars.  I have spent decades plus with the same instructors and we are all really good friends at this point on many levels.  I have also been a HUGE instructional DVD collector.  My collection of instructional DVDs was somewhere in the 500-600 range.  I say was because I traded most of my videos with a friend of mine that runs a rental service specifically for martial arts videos.
> 
> ...



1) Putting on my best Karate Kid voice, "Hmm...you learn from book?"  Sorry dude, gotta disagree with you on this.  My wife has never trained a day of martial arts in her life.  I could pop in a Larry Tatum Kenpo dvd, and she could mimic the moves, but is she really "LEARNING" anything?  Now, I could spend 1hr. with her, showing her some basics, even a tech or 2, and she would have a better understanding of what I'm doing, vs. her watching Larry.  Larry isn't correcting her, Larry isn't watching her, whereas I will be.  Sorry, if you've never done something, you're going to be sub-par at best.  I'll go a step further and say that if the person already has a solid background, with a live teacher, using the dvd as a REFERENCE only, is fine.  

2) Even if done right...and I've seen some crappy dvds and some damn good ones....will still not be the same as a live teacher.  No matter how well thought out it is, its not going to be the same. 

3) I'm going to raise the BS flag on this.  Sorry, gotta do it! 

4) IMHO, alot of it comes down to the person.  How far is one willing to go, to train?  I know people who travel hours to get training.  I'm lucky, 2 of my 3 main teachers are no more than 10min, if that, from my house.  My Kenpo teacher is in New Jersey.  I have him down a few times a year, and eventually, I'll make my way up to see him in Jersey.  When I dont see him, I simply train on my own.  If I have questions, he's a phone call away.   So, in a nutshell, and yeah, I know, this isn't easy for everyone, but it all comes down to what the person wants.  If there was no BJJ in my area, and it was something I really, really, REALLY wanted, if it meant driving 3 hrs or flying to another state, then so be it.  Again, ya gotta really want it! Record (for your own use) the session if possible, take classes, privates, whatever.  People ***** alot of the time because stuff isnt 2 min away.  Sorry, doesnt always work that way.

5) That I agree with you on!


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## Cyriacus (Nov 15, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Nope, I agree with all of your points.  A good instructor is the best route to go.  If you don't have access to a good instructor and you have prior experience and training partners with prior experience, dvd's might be an viable option (original poster had both of those things).
> 
> I was playing devil's advocate because everyone always jumps on and says that an instructor and school is the best.  But, as you had to point out and defend there are caveats with that statement, such as, the instructor is good and the school is not a McDojo/Belt factory.



Oh, I see what You were saying. I Read it as being You Supporting the use of these Alternate Methods Overall, as oppose to lending that they have their Place.
Im Pleased with the Outcome of this Brief Conversation


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## jasonbrinn (Nov 15, 2011)

MJS said:


> 1) Putting on my best Karate Kid voice, "Hmm...you learn from book?"  Sorry dude, gotta disagree with you on this.  My wife has never trained a day of martial arts in her life.  I could pop in a Larry Tatum Kenpo dvd, and she could mimic the moves, but is she really "LEARNING" anything?  Now, I could spend 1hr. with her, showing her some basics, even a tech or 2, and she would have a better understanding of what I'm doing, vs. her watching Larry.  Larry isn't correcting her, Larry isn't watching her, whereas I will be.  Sorry, if you've never done something, you're going to be sub-par at best.  I'll go a step further and say that if the person already has a solid background, with a live teacher, using the dvd as a REFERENCE only, is fine.
> 
> 2) Even if done right...and I've seen some crappy dvds and some damn good ones....will still not be the same as a live teacher.  No matter how well thought out it is, its not going to be the same.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the honest replies.  Please note that my responses above and those to come (pretty much anything I will say on any forum except for things I specifically disqualify) are from my own personal experiences training the martial arts in application - not simply me theorizing in order to post on a thread - not saying you do this just letting you know a little about me.

1) We will have to agree to disagree cause I honestly have seen this proven out in real life.  Again, it matters how passionate the learner is and the quality of the instructional media, however more times then not if the two requirements are met you end up with better output.  It's easy enough to test on your own though, just take two groups of students to teach something new to (a form, even a technique) - one group you train only face-to-face, the other you train through video only - after 2 weeks you have them both perform and go through the technique.  I am betting on the video group.  What you might find is that the video group initially performs lower but with a little warmup and maybe even some tweaking by you the video group will become better faster and have a much more solid base to grow from.  Again, I know this works cause I have done similar tests during my years running many different schools.  Could be that I suck teaching and that's why the results were the way they were, but most of my students went on to train at other clubs were almost all of them became the "top" students at those gyms as well (what that indicates I am not quite sure but a fact none the less)

2) I agree.  Learning from a DVD is not the same as learning from a live instructor.  If you mean it is not as good or is less than - well it all comes down to how you measure it and without a concrete example of your guidelines I don't have any opinion.

3) Nice.  What are you raising the "BS" flag on, the reference to how manuals were used in the early days of MA and still used today?  Or, are you raising the flag on me saying I have experienced it first hand?  Possibly both points?  Either way you are totally within your rights to feel that way, just know that it is only your feelings and not the truth.  I don't see that me listing out and "proving" my claim here benefits the thread but I definitely can if people would like me to (and if you are personally interested in my studies and what I learned you can definitely contact me - I love talking MA with passionate honest people like you sound to be [ jasonbrinn@gmail.com ] ).  The historical aspects of manuals being used is just that - historical - it can be researched and you will see that I am correct (at least on this point).

4) Interesting.  It really comes down to the quality of instruction right?  I mean wouldn't 2 hours with a world renowned expert be worth more than 200 hours with an average instructor?  It really depends, again if you are a passionate student with a context to understand the experts points you will likely get a huge bump from those 2 hours.  Or, if you are a newbie and "slow" then the 200 hours of "hand holding" might be the ONLY way you will progress.  This is really my point.  A great video can help both people the same way.  A newbie watching an expert video will get what they get, granted it will be from an expert.  A seasoned student watching the expert video will more than likely get a lot more out of it, still getting it from an expert.  Both of them will increase their learning and decrease their curves.  Logic would tell us that if you took both of those students and had them train new arts, the seasoned student watches the video while the newbie trains the art first hand - give them both 6 months - at the end the seasoned student will "out perform" the newbie in the new art.  If you agree with this then follow me a bit more - if a complete newbie (n) watches a video (v) over and over and over they could expect to attain a certain level (x).  If that same newbie (n) instead trained at a school (s) to learn the same amount of time they could expect to attain a certain level (x) too correct?

1. n + v = X
2. n + s = X

How can you honestly say that the second X is more or of a better quality?  They only argument as I see it to say one X is more preferred would be to consider the elements of training in V versus S.  This would mean you think certain methods of training better convey information than another, certain processes are more preferred like sparring, face-to-face correction, etc.  Fortunately, how the human brain adapts information is a subject that has been widely tested and studied for many many years.  The bottom line from most studies suggests that people learn much more from repetitively viewing consistent data then from attempting to recreate data at various levels over a period of time.

I have tested this theory in real LIVE scenarios and found it to be mostly true with the only uncontrollable variable being the student (and by which that same student had mixed results from either method).

5) Glad we agree on something - that we have to build from 


Thanks again!


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## MJS (Nov 15, 2011)

jasonbrinn said:


> Thanks for the honest replies.  Please note that my responses above and those to come (pretty much anything I will say on any forum except for things I specifically disqualify) are from my own personal experiences training the martial arts in application - not simply me theorizing in order to post on a thread - not saying you do this just letting you know a little about me.
> 
> 1) We will have to agree to disagree cause I honestly have seen this proven out in real life.  Again, it matters how passionate the learner is and the quality of the instructional media, however more times then not if the two requirements are met you end up with better output.  It's easy enough to test on your own though, just take two groups of students to teach something new to (a form, even a technique) - one group you train only face-to-face, the other you train through video only - after 2 weeks you have them both perform and go through the technique.  I am betting on the video group.  What you might find is that the video group initially performs lower but with a little warmup and maybe even some tweaking by you the video group will become better faster and have a much more solid base to grow from.  Again, I know this works cause I have done similar tests during my years running many different schools.  Could be that I suck teaching and that's why the results were the way they were, but most of my students went on to train at other clubs were almost all of them became the "top" students at those gyms as well (what that indicates I am not quite sure but a fact none the less)



Question: Have these people been students with zero training or ones that have had past training?  I ask this, because yeah, if you have someone who has trained, they may pick something up.  Without any training...oh, I'm sure they'll copy the movemtns, but they'll still suck.  26yrs in, I could probably pick up a dvd of an art that I've never done, and figure things out, easier than someone with no training.  Why?  My 26yrs.  Someone with zero training....sorry, can't buy that they'll be remotely effective.  That'd be like me going to Home Depot, picking up a book on electrical wiring, reading it, and thinking that I could re-wire my house. LOL! 



> 2) I agree.  Learning from a DVD is not the same as learning from a live instructor.  If you mean it is not as good or is less than - well it all comes down to how you measure it and without a concrete example of your guidelines I don't have any opinion.



My point sir, is that no matter how well the dvd was made, things will be left out, important things won't be transmitted to the student.  Why? Because of the obvious...the dvd isn't going to correct you.  



> 3) Nice.  What are you raising the "BS" flag on, the reference to how manuals were used in the early days of MA and still used today?  Or, are you raising the flag on me saying I have experienced it first hand?  Possibly both points?  Either way you are totally within your rights to feel that way, just know that it is only your feelings and not the truth.  I don't see that me listing out and "proving" my claim here benefits the thread but I definitely can if people would like me to (and if you are personally interested in my studies and what I learned you can definitely contact me - I love talking MA with passionate honest people like you sound to be [ jasonbrinn@gmail.com ] ).  The historical aspects of manuals being used is just that - historical - it can be researched and you will see that I am correct (at least on this point).



I'm raising the BS flag on the statement that you made....that a dvd student will out perform a student who trains with a live teacher.  Come on man...  Are you saying that back in the day, all people had was training manuals to go by...no live teacher?   But all that aside....feel free to PM me here on the forum.  



> 4) Interesting.  It really comes down to the quality of instruction right?  I mean wouldn't 2 hours with a world renowned expert be worth more than 200 hours with an average instructor?  It really depends, again if you are a passionate student with a context to understand the experts points you will likely get a huge bump from those 2 hours.  Or, if you are a newbie and "slow" then the 200 hours of "hand holding" might be the ONLY way you will progress.  This is really my point.  A great video can help both people the same way.  A newbie watching an expert video will get what they get, granted it will be from an expert.  A seasoned student watching the expert video will more than likely get a lot more out of it, still getting it from an expert.  Both of them will increase their learning and decrease their curves.  Logic would tell us that if you took both of those students and had them train new arts, the seasoned student watches the video while the newbie trains the art first hand - give them both 6 months - at the end the seasoned student will "out perform" the newbie in the new art.  If you agree with this then follow me a bit more - if a complete newbie (n) watches a video (v) over and over and over they could expect to attain a certain level (x).  If that same newbie (n) instead trained at a school (s) to learn the same amount of time they could expect to attain a certain level (x) too correct?
> 
> 1. n + v = X
> 2. n + s = X
> ...



Allow me to use an example: Student A has trained BJJ under a brown belt for 2yrs.  He goes to class 3-4 times a week, for a 90min class.  Rickson Gracie is holding a seminar.  Student A goes to the seminar which is 8hrs over the course of 2 days.  

Student B is new to the art of BJJ.  He goes to class 3-4 times, like Student A, but he's only been training 2 weeks.  Student B also goes to the Rickson seminar.

Who do you think is going to walk away with more knowledge?  I'm going to say A.  Why?  A already has already been training for 2yrs, has a solid understanding of the basics, will be able to ask more technical questions, and overall, will probably gain more from Ricksons knowledge.  B is so new, he's still grasping the basics.  Will there be white belts in the seminar?  Sure, probably, but chances are, their head will be spinning with whats covered.  

So, back to your example.  I'll use Larry Tatum.  Me spending 2hrs with him vs my wife spending 2hrs with him...well, come on, its a no brainer.  I'd gain more because of my training background.  My wifes time would be better spent with someone of a lesser caliber, who can work with her on the basics.  It'd be like showing a new driver how to drive.  Instead of using a small, 6cyl. car, you put them in a Ferrari.  

But this thread is about distance learning and not having someone immediately in the area to train with.  I gave my options....train with someone in the area, train with someone who's far away.  Either way, go train.   Again, I understand that everything is not nearby.  No Kajukenbo in my area, so what're my options?  Fly to a state that has a Kaju teacher, move, take a week long trip, train, take privates, head home, train the hell out of what you did, and repeat, etc.  



> 5) Glad we agree on something - that we have to build from
> 
> 
> Thanks again!



No problem. and thank you as well.


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## Blindside (Nov 15, 2011)

jasonbrinn said:


> We will have to agree to disagree cause I honestly have seen this  proven out in real life.  Again, it matters how passionate the learner  is and the quality of the instructional media, however more times then  not if the two requirements are met you end up with better output.  It's  easy enough to test on your own though, just take two groups of  students to teach something new to (a form, even a technique) - one  group you train only face-to-face, the other you train through video  only - after 2 weeks you have them both perform and go through the  technique.  I am betting on the video group.



I have done this, I have a local group and a study group, the study group is 220 miles away so I don't get to them (or they to me) as often as either of us would like.  I provide video of the basics and the core beginner drills as reference to all of my students.  My local students don't use them very often as they have me to reference off of and my distance students use the vids regularly.  Every time I meet with my distance students I have to do quality control, I run through all the fundamentals to make sure odd things aren't creeping in.  Most of them are experienced martial artists already (all of the core group members hold black belt or black belt equivalents in other arts), know how to learn, know their bodies, and yet I constantly find issues.  And because it has been a month (or often more) that I get to see them, the issues have time to fester and get ingrained.  I estimate that my personal students are progressing at least twice as fast as my distance students.    

I have also done the video learning thing myself.  I (and a couple of experienced MAists as training partners) tried video training in the FMAs because we didn't have anything local (middle of nowhere Wyoming).  I won't say we didn't learn anything, but after a year and a half of 3 days/wk training, by common consensus we weren't actually progressing.  We bit the bullet and started looking for instructors in Salt Lake City which was 170 miles away.  After finding our instructor our estimate was we learned more in three months of 1 or 2x/month personal lessons than we had in all our previous time combined.  As an additional part of that experience, one of our study group was a kinesthetic learner, he could not learn through video at all, the two visual learners would have to figure out what the video lesson was, do the lesson, then teach him.  It was a frustrating process for him because he felt "dumb" because he couldn't get the lesson the way we were.  Video training by himself would have been truly useless.

So my experience is very different than yours.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 15, 2011)

The single biggest hindrance I can pinpoint for you in DVD training is the sheer amount of little nuances the instructor won't catch.


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## Apache26b (Nov 16, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> How would you know you had finally gotten it right without a live instructor to confirm it?


By performing the drill with my EXPERIENCED training partners.


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## Apache26b (Nov 16, 2011)

Ok. I do have to say something about this "it's how bad you want it" crap. Some of you people aren't paying attention. Fly to a state that has a good instructor? Seriously? That's your recommendation? As I have already stated I am a disabled vet. Meaning I live on disability. After I pay my bills and buy food for the month it would literally take me a year or more to save enough for one trip. And for me to save the gas money to take a 4 hour one way trip? MAYBE twice a year. And still that is a stretch. That crap you are shoveling is a nice ferry tail, but here in the real world it is not just how bad I want it. If it was I would be in Afghanistan right now with my unit. Doing what I love. Being a soldier. But no matter how bad i want it i'm not. If it was that easy my friends would still be alive, but they aren't. So go sell that load to someone stupid enough to buy it.


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## Apache26b (Nov 16, 2011)

I am glad to see such spirited debate but the question I was posing when I started this was not about if anyone thought I (or anyone for that matter) should train with those disks of which we do not speak. My question is why do so many folks (who should have matured to some degree through their training) take it as an invite to treat them like they are in some way inferior. If that is still too vague then I'll say it this way. Most of the replies I see are rude and if they don't disrespect the person posing the question then they certainly mock the folks offering those evil disks of which we do not speak. There is a market they are putting out a product. What part of that equation gives us the right to act like school yard bullys or jerks. If you haven't done this then i am not speaking to you. But to those who do act in such a manner why? What happened to tact and if you can't say anything nice keep your trap shut. Folks like Bill (sorry to single you out) had a negative opinion of dvds but still put his opinions and statements in such a way that they were polite and did not belittle anyone. All I'm saying is some folks could learn from his example. Yes there were others that were polite as well, but I am doing this on a phone and it is very difficult to go back and look at names while typing this.


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## WC_lun (Nov 16, 2011)

Heya Apache,
  A couple of remarks about your last couple of post.  First, many of the guys here are still young and naive enough to believe that desire gets you what you want if you just want it bad enough.  Don't be too rough with them, as most of us have been there until put into a situation where we learned different.

  Yeah, some people are pretty short and to the point, to the point of being rude, when it comes to training from DvDs and books.  I think part of that comes from answering the same questions about those medias over and over again.  Then many times we are told by people that don't like what they hear that we are wrong and they are so talented that they can learn without a good instructor and/or quality training partners.  Going back to your previous post, which in itself seemed a bit terse, just because a person wants too, doesn't mean they can.  After 20+ years of hearing this discussion over and over again, with people just not listening or understanding what they are told by experienced martial artist, I do find myself less and less polite on the sibject.  


Learning martial arts takes LOTS of tactile input.  Without proper tactile input, training is subpar at best.  Similiar to trying to learn how to race a car or perform neurosurgery by watching some vids or reading books.  I've given these examples many times in response to the quesions on these media materials.  Invariably there will be at least one person that tells me they can and/or have trained with videos and books and they are better than other people that have trained with live instructors.  Knowing that response is going to be forthcoming, it is sometimes difficult  to show patience and generousity in our post.


I hope your situation improves enough that you will be able to train as you like.  Good luck!


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## Cyriacus (Nov 16, 2011)

Noones being Nasty, theyre being Blunt, instead of repeating the same Story over again.

Instructed Training > Referential Training.
Referential Training + Capable Individual = Good Result.
Referential Training + Incapable Individual = Bad Result.
Instructed Training + Any Individual = Better Result.
Instructed Training By A Bad Instructor = Just as Bad a Result.
Referential Training + Experienced Partners = Why do You need the Referential Training if Theyre so Qualified and Talented and Proficient as to be able to Spot every Flaw and cite Years of Experience?

If someones been treating You like Youre Inferior for doing it, theyre just not a Nice Person. If Someone is saying they may well be Better due to how Theyre Training, They may well be right, and it is not an Insult.
And if You have such Experienced Training Partners, then You dont need DVDs. Learn from _them_.

And as for "What happened to tact and if you can't say anything nice keep your trap shut." - I say, if You want nothing but Positive Outlooks, wheter Affirmative or Negatory, Speak only to those who Agree with You or are Neutral, and not on a Public Discussion Board.

"Folks like Bill (sorry to single you out) had a negative opinion of dvds but still put his opinions and statements in such a way that they were polite and did not belittle anyone."
Who here Belittled You? (Im actually going to go Re-Read the Whole Thread now.)

As for How Bad You Want It, that was someone offering Perspective based on what They do, not posing it as Your Only Option.

The Bottom Line is, that You cannot Argue in Favor of this kind of Training. You can Justify it. And it is certainly Justifiable under the right Conditions. But as just about everyone has said, its a Question of Quality. If Your best Option is the Quality offered by Referential Training, then Good. If You have a Better Option, which You apparently dont, then thats better.
But You dont.
So thats Fine.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 16, 2011)

Two things. And, yeah, I'm going to be a little blunt here.



Apache26b said:


> By performing the drill with my EXPERIENCED training partners.


 
What are they experienced in, though? If it's not the same system, then they will have a reference to compare against the DVDs, but that doesn't mean they will necessarily have anywhere near the necessary insight into that particular system to be much more help. If it's the same system, then they will be your guides in the system (if they're not at instructor level), and the DVDs become references rather than instructional, which is what we've said they are better used for.

My point here is that one martial art does not equal another, with many having very different approaches, to the point of being contradictory. If the people you're working with have trained in a contradictory system (which, so you know, can superficially look very similar), then you can't learn the new system (the one you say you're interested in learning specifically) from them, and the benefit is limited, to the point of possibly being fairly detrimental to your development.

If you're after a particular art, and there isn't someone around to teach you, you can't learn it. That's really the long and the short of it. It doesn't matter how "experienced" your training partners are if they're not experienced in the art you're learning, it becomes a case of, well, not really the blind leading the blind, but more like a pilot trying to teach how to drive a train. Not the same thing.



Apache26b said:


> Ok. I do have to say something about this "it's how bad you want it" crap. Some of you people aren't paying attention. Fly to a state that has a good instructor? Seriously? That's your recommendation? As I have already stated I am a disabled vet. Meaning I live on disability. After I pay my bills and buy food for the month it would literally take me a year or more to save enough for one trip. And for me to save the gas money to take a 4 hour one way trip? MAYBE twice a year. And still that is a stretch. That crap you are shoveling is a nice ferry tail, but here in the real world it is not just how bad I want it. If it was I would be in Afghanistan right now with my unit. Doing what I love. Being a soldier. But no matter how bad i want it i'm not. If it was that easy my friends would still be alive, but they aren't. So go sell that load to someone stupid enough to buy it.



I could give you quite a list of systems where, if you want to learn them, your one and only option is to move to Japan. If I want to learn a certain branch of Takenouchi Ryu, for instance, there are no dojos, no instructors, and no access outside of Japan, and even there only in a small part of the country.

So yeah, how important is this particular system to you? Bear in mind, we're not saying that in order to learn any martial art you have to make such effort and sacrifice, but if you've chosen that particular system, for whatever reason, and it's not available to you in your present location/circumstances, you really do have to accept that. Taking short cuts leads to major issues, which is what the DVD method is. You simply cannot learn a martial art from a DVD/book, or anything like that without personal guidance and instruction from someone who already knows the system. At all. The best you can do is copy the actions.

Seriously, this smacks of a misplaced sense of entitlement. Just because you want it doesn't mean it's there for you, you know. And if it's not available to you, well, it's not available to you. Accept or change the situation, and if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. Deal with it. Seriously. I understand that you feel you are in special circumstances, but I have to tell you, you're really not. Everyone is in the same situation, where you may not have something you want available to you right now, and you need to accept that. I really want an Aston Martin DB9 Vantage, but you know what? I can't afford one. So my choices are to accept that, or look to altering my life and income so I can, but that may mean leaving behind a great number of things that I love, and it's not a sacrifice that I really want to make. A DB9 would be lovely, but I just don't want it bad enough. And I can accept that.

Your references to being in Afghanistan, or bringing up the memories of your deceased friends is really not the same thing, except in the fact that you need to accept the reality there as well. As you say, wanting it bad enough isn't enough there... but the big difference is that what we mean by "want it bad enough" is more along the lines of "how much are you willing to sacrifice, how far are you willing to go?", not sitting at home going "Oh, I wish, I wish, I wish...".

So how much do you want to learn this system? How far are you willing to go? What can you sacrifice to learn it? How much is it worth to you? You can either learn it, which will mean sacrifice and travel, finding an instructor, and doing it properly, or you can't. But if you can't, I say accept it. And if you can't accept it, frankly, too bad. Wishing and whining won't change it.


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## jks9199 (Nov 16, 2011)

Apache26b said:


> Ok. I do have to say something about this "it's how bad you want it" crap. Some of you people aren't paying attention. Fly to a state that has a good instructor? Seriously? That's your recommendation? As I have already stated I am a disabled vet. Meaning I live on disability. After I pay my bills and buy food for the month it would literally take me a year or more to save enough for one trip. And for me to save the gas money to take a 4 hour one way trip? MAYBE twice a year. And still that is a stretch. That crap you are shoveling is a nice ferry tail, but here in the real world it is not just how bad I want it. If it was I would be in Afghanistan right now with my unit. Doing what I love. Being a soldier. But no matter how bad i want it i'm not. If it was that easy my friends would still be alive, but they aren't. So go sell that load to someone stupid enough to buy it.



Look around you more carefully.  There are lots of people teaching various arts in garages, back yards, community centers, parks, and similar places, with little fanfare.  I don't know what's in your area for sure, or whether you're looking for a very specific art or are more open -- but you don't know what's there until you look.  

And, regarding the "fairy tale" of traveling periodically to train?  I know people who did it.  I know people who would take a bus, every month or two, arrive at the instructor's home, train intensely for the weekend, then return home to practice.  It can be done -- if you choose to do it.

But let me get back to the original question: training via video or books.  It's possible.  Especially for a person who already has some background.  Your comparison with medical training or with some of your military training isn't 100% accurate.  A surgeon doesn't start with training via video; they start with dissection, then supervised practice and learning during internship.  Then they can learn a new technique or procedure from a book or video.  A similar approach applies to the military training; you don't do Basic via a book or get handed a manual and be expected to be a Ranger or SF operator, right?

Most people here discourage trying to learn a martial art from a video or book.  I would, too.  While you have the advantage of seeing the exact same technique repeated exactly the same way, you miss details and perceptions that only come from direct experience.  I once read a quote from Stephen Hayes where he described a couple of people who came up to him at a seminar or similar event, and showed him some sequences they'd learned from his books.  He described them as "robotic" and stiff.  Because they only had the frozen pictures in the books to learn from, and no teacher -- they missed a key element of the flow and feel of the arts.  And, while you seeing the same technique repeated exactly the same can be very helpful (I've been incredibly frustrated when teachers change the drill they just taught or show a different technique when you ask to "see that again"... and then get upset when students are "doing it wrong!") -- it can also be a trap, because it might be that it's not really the specific technique that's important -- it's the underlying principle, which you won't see until you see the same thing done differently.

I don't think most users here have been "nasty" towards people who try to learn solely from videos or books.  Discouraging something isn't the same as being "nasty" about doing it.  There simply is no equivalent for actual training with a skilled instructor.

One other thing -- and this is a question to ask yourself, not answer publicly unless you choose to -- but I have to wonder if your perceptions of posts here and your opportunities may not be being shaped by the particulars of your situation.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 16, 2011)

I think I'm just quoting myself making the same argument in two threads at the moment.... oh, well, this is relevant here as well: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?99726-Begginner-really-needs-help




Chris Parker said:


> They provide a greater opportunity to learn about many arts, and get a greater exposure to them, but they are just not good for learning an art itself. If you are already familiar with the system, they can certainly enhance your training, but learning from them in the first place is just not a good idea.
> 
> It's not actually down to the tools, it's down to the limitations and missing essential components of learning martial arts that this particular method of learning have. For instance, I took my guys through a series of knife defence techniques yesterday, and put everything that I would put in a DVD form in my demonstration of the technique. It was performed from various angles, the students were invited to move to a position where they could see clearly, all the pertinent points were covered, the essential aspects were explained, and so on. But then moving around the group, each person needed to have at least one or two things corrected, and each typically had something different that needed correction. That included things demonstrated but not stated, things where I had to reference previous lessons for that particular student, highlighting things that were in the explanation, rephrasing things, or adding particular details for a student to understand what the lesson was actually teachings. No DVD can provide that level or type of feedback, so even though my guys are experienced in the system (ranging from a few months to a number of years in the art), know my teaching style, this was the third week in a row we'd covered this type of material (the same principles applied in a slightly different scenario), not one of them would have actually learnt it properly from a DVD source, as they would pick up on some things, but not everything, and the learning happens in two ways in a martial art: application against a partner, and fine-tuning and correction on a personal level, attuned to the student, their abilities, and relative experience. This is just not possible in a DVD learning method.


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## MJS (Nov 16, 2011)

Apache26b said:


> Ok. I do have to say something about this "it's how bad you want it" crap. Some of you people aren't paying attention. Fly to a state that has a good instructor? Seriously? That's your recommendation? As I have already stated I am a disabled vet. Meaning I live on disability. After I pay my bills and buy food for the month it would literally take me a year or more to save enough for one trip. And for me to save the gas money to take a 4 hour one way trip? MAYBE twice a year. And still that is a stretch. That crap you are shoveling is a nice ferry tail, but here in the real world it is not just how bad I want it. If it was I would be in Afghanistan right now with my unit. Doing what I love. Being a soldier. But no matter how bad i want it i'm not. If it was that easy my friends would still be alive, but they aren't. So go sell that load to someone stupid enough to buy it.



First off, no need to get all pissy.  You came on here, and asked a question, to which you received numerous replies.  I'm sorry that you're not hearing what YOU want to hear, but as I've said many times, I dont sugar coat things.  You ask a question, I'm giving you a straight answer.  Whether you like it or not isn't a concern of mine.  Sorry if that sounds harsh.  You're not the first, nor will you be the last person, to ask advice.  I could point you to numerous threads in which a member asked advice on what arts to train, he got that advice, then he got all upset and pissy because he wasn't liking the answers he got.  

In a nutshell, yes, it does come down to how bad you want it.  For example:  I work nights, 4p-12a, with rotating days off.  Currently, I work during the day, so training is much easier, but normally, I'm on nights.  The majority of schools in my area have night time classes, with a handful offering day time classes.  One of my good friends owns his own school, where he teaches a few different things, one being BJJ.  I've said many times that I need to get back to down to his place and train BJJ.  Havent done it yet though.  If I wanted it bad enough, I'd make the time, yet due to other obligations, I have to tend to those first.  

So, going on what you just said, here are somemore suggestions....

1) Buy dvds and try to learn from them, but accept the fact that it wont be easy, that you may not get taht good, that you may run into issues with understanding whats on the dvd.

2) Use forums, such as this, to network.  Perhaps there're people in your area, that would be willing to train with you.  I can say from experience, that I've met many fantastic people thru my years training.  Some of the best workouts that I've had, have been in a backyard, or garage.  No belts, no egos, no BS, just people that want to learn and train.  

3) Determine how far you're willing to travel and how much you're willing to spend.  Research schools in that area.  Go to the school and talk to the head inst.  Explain your situation to them and see if they're willing to work with you.  Who knows...if you show enough desire to learn, they just may be willing to train you.

4) Accept the fact that perhaps training at this time, isn't going to work for you.  Perhaps down the road, thigns will turn around, and you'll be able to train.


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## MJS (Nov 16, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> Heya Apache,
> A couple of remarks about your last couple of post.  First, many of the guys here are still young and naive enough to believe that desire gets you what you want if you just want it bad enough.  Don't be too rough with them, as most of us have been there until put into a situation where we learned different.



Not sure if I'm one of the people this is directed at, but for the record, I dont consider myself young or naive, when it comes to training.  After 26yrs., I think I know a thing or two.   And yes, the desire to want something does play a part.  There are things in life that I've wanted, I've put my mind to it, and I've done what I needed to do, to get those things.  Want to buy a new car?  Work some OT or pick up a PT job.  Want to better yoruself so you can get a better job?  Look into some Adult ed or college classes.  Sorry, nowadays, too many people want to take the easy route.  Instead of busting their ***, they sit and ***** and cry.  IMO, unless you're going to a mcdojo, or are fortunate to be blessed in life with no worry, then the reality is, ya gotta work....theres no shortcuts or magic tricks. 



> Yeah, some people are pretty short and to the point, to the point of being rude, when it comes to training from DvDs and books.  I think part of that comes from answering the same questions about those medias over and over again.  Then many times we are told by people that don't like what they hear that we are wrong and they are so talented that they can learn without a good instructor and/or quality training partners.  Going back to your previous post, which in itself seemed a bit terse, just because a person wants too, doesn't mean they can.  After 20+ years of hearing this discussion over and over again, with people just not listening or understanding what they are told by experienced martial artist, I do find myself less and less polite on the sibject.



IMO, I dont feel that I was rude.  Like I said, no sugar coating from me.   I think the thing of it is, is that this is a question thats asked numerous times, usually with the same results.....people ask the question, others reply, the OP doesnt like what they hear, so they cry foul and say people are rude.  LOL!  This is laughable at best!  I could point you to a thread in which a member who is now banned, asked questions about training.  He got his answers, didn't like them, bitched, the thead died.  A while later, same member comes back.....and asks the same damn questions.  Process repeats! LOL!  Thats why I say its laughable.


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## MJS (Nov 16, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Two things. And, yeah, I'm going to be a little blunt here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As always Chris, you come thru with a great post!  The bold parts are the points you hit on, that I was trying to make as well.  I used Kajukenbo in one of my posts, as an example.  There are no Kaju schools in my area, so I either have to accept the fact that I'll never do Kaju, unless I: A) move to an area where there are schools, b) travel to a state which has a school, and train for a week or 2, come home, practice what I learned, and repeat the process.  I mean, I dont know what else to say....its not that difficult to figure out here. LOL.  Right now, I'm in a position to do neither, so....I dont do Kaju!  Its that simple.


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## Grenadier (Nov 16, 2011)

A DVD only holds an hour or two of time.  Even a whole set of 5 DVD's will only have about 10 hours at the most.  

Even the simpler martial arts systems are complex things indeed, where proper mechanics must be developed, so that the student will eventually have a solid platform upon which to stand, when it comes time to learn the more advanced material. 

Without a competent, watchful eye, you're not going to understand all of the mechanics involved.  For that matter, there are even certain orders in which mechanics must be learned, otherwise, the basics never develop.  

Unless you are an incredibly gifted / talented individual, you're never going to be able to get all of the basic knowledge from a set of videos, since you don't have anyone to tell you what you're doing wrong.  Without those basics, learning the advanced material will be all but useless, except to maybe give you a good physical workout.  Even then, I'd still have to question it, since you might be doing something damaging to your joints, etc.  

I've trained many students who have attempted to learn a kata from a video, and in each case, I've had to point out that they don't have the correct tension in a particular area of the body, or that they're not using the lower body to power the upper body techniques.  As talented as some of these individuals are, they would have *never* discovered this on their own, unless a long time had passed, and they were able to objectively evaluate their own performances.  Even then, it would have been a waste of time on their parts to try it that way.  

One of the difficult cases were where one student (just made brown belt) had essentially taught himself the kata "Kanku Dai," using videos.  While he was able to do the moves in the sequence, the techniques were shoddy.  There were many times in his stances, where his legs and feet were wobbly, along with his lacking tension under the arms, and that his kicks were pushing forward, and not snapping forward and backwards.  This student was so caught up in learning the sequence, that this student didn't bother making sure that the fundamental techniques used were mechanically correct.  All of this happened, despite the fact that he is one of my more highly talented and intelligent students.  

He even believed that he was ready to use it at a tournament...    

It wasn't until I videotaped the student doing Kanku Dai, and then comparing that video with a solidly performned Kanku Dai done by Hirokazu Kanazawa, that the eyes opened up, and he saw how awful his self-taught kata really was.


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## MJS (Nov 16, 2011)

Grenadier said:


> A DVD only holds an hour or two of time.  Even a whole set of 5 DVD's will only have about 10 hours at the most.
> 
> Even the simpler martial arts systems are complex things indeed, where proper mechanics must be developed, so that the student will eventually have a solid platform upon which to stand, when it comes time to learn the more advanced material.
> 
> ...



Likewise, some of my past Kenpo schools, have offered training guides to the students.  These were designed not to learnt he material from, but instead, to help the student review, a reference tool.  Many times, I'd have students come in and tell me that they know all of the techs. required for their belt level.  Knowing that all of these techs. were not yet covered, it was obvious the student used the guide to learn from.  

So, while they were expecting to get praise and perhaps a stripe on their belt for knowing the techs, instead they quickly realized that they had made mistakes, needed fine tuning, etc. and that the road to success is paved with hard work instead of free rides.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 16, 2011)

Yep, agreed to both Grenadier and MJS here. I am basically running a training group for a Koryu Kenjutsu group presently, and the syllabus is a grand total of 24 sword techniques (kata), 12 for long sword, 7 for short, and 5 for two swords. Each kata is also relatively short, especially when compared to one or two of my other systems. The first kata in the system basically involves an evasive step outside an attack, and a thrust (as you evade) to the throat. Seems simple, yeah? That can surely be taught by DVD without any real problem, right.

I spent over an hour taking two guys through that single kata a while back, constantly refining, correcting, making adjustments on what they were doing (both as the attacker and the defender), and so on. And there is still a lot of work to be done on it. If we spent three months just doing that one kata, we might be able to get through most of the details, and they may have learnt it to a reasonable level.

DVDs cannot offer that, especially if they are 30 minutes to an hour long at the most. Additionally, those refinements come from watching the students performance, which is also something that a DVD doesn't offer at all.


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## Apache26b (Nov 16, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Noones being Nasty, theyre being Blunt, instead of repeating the same Story over again.Instructed Training > Referential Training.Referential Training + Capable Individual = Good Result.Referential Training + Incapable Individual = Bad Result.Instructed Training + Any Individual = Better Result.Instructed Training By A Bad Instructor = Just as Bad a Result.Referential Training + Experienced Partners = Why do You need the Referential Training if Theyre so Qualified and Talented and Proficient as to be able to Spot every Flaw and cite Years of Experience?If someones been treating You like Youre Inferior for doing it, theyre just not a Nice Person. If Someone is saying they may well be Better due to how Theyre Training, They may well be right, and it is not an Insult.And if You have such Experienced Training Partners, then You dont need DVDs. Learn from _them_.And as for "What happened to tact and if you can't say anything nice keep your trap shut." - I say, if You want nothing but Positive Outlooks, wheter Affirmative or Negatory, Speak only to those who Agree with You or are Neutral, and not on a Public Discussion Board."Folks like Bill (sorry to single you out) had a negative opinion of dvds but still put his opinions and statements in such a way that they were polite and did not belittle anyone."Who here Belittled You? (Im actually going to go Re-Read the Whole Thread now.)As for How Bad You Want It, that was someone offering Perspective based on what They do, not posing it as Your Only Option.The Bottom Line is, that You cannot Argue in Favor of this kind of Training. You can Justify it. And it is certainly Justifiable under the right Conditions. But as just about everyone has said, its a Question of Quality. If Your best Option is the Quality offered by Referential Training, then Good. If You have a Better Option, which You apparently dont, then thats better.But You dont.So thats Fine.


noone  was rude to me. I started this thread after reading the same old stuff over and over again on not just this site bit EVERY ma forum I found (i was searching the net looking for reviews of specific programs) there was someone being scolded for even considering the idea. The question wasn't about this site in particular but that more to ma community ad a whole. And i chose this site because the people here seemed to be the most level headed. I gave my situation at the beginning to suggest that at least in some cases dvds may be acceptable as an alternative when good instruction is not available. I would like to stress the word good in that last sentence. My original question has been answered. Thanks


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 16, 2011)

One continuous paragraph separated by me so I can read and reply easier.



Apache26b said:


> I was an Infantry team leader and i taught classes om using the army's new gps units and blue force trackers. By the way we used a lot of videos and computer training to do that with.



Did you ever learn something new without having the equipment on hand to touch or play with?
Was the first time you learned about GPS units, did you do it a vacuum, i.e. no equipment all video?





Apache26b said:


> And don't you think at least a few of your examples were just a tad bit obserd?



Do I think them Absurd?   No.




Apache26b said:


> I was talking to a friend of mine at the hospital i work at and one of the docters was in the room. He said he has a friend who is a brain sergion. You know how they pass along new tequnices? No they don't all meet in the brain sewing dojo and practice on brains. They watch films (evil dvd's) lol. Like the man said you can't learn to be a sergion by watching dvd's. But you can learn new procedures that way. I think if they can figure out how to stitch up someone's nuget that way someone with a good background and a good training partner can learn martial arts.



WOW, A trained Brian Surgeon watches a video and gets to learn a nuance or new technique. Yes I can see that. I also see a Master instructor in a system watching a video and going that is wrong or that is new or that is interesting. But they have lots of experience in what they are doing. 
Question: Can those Brain Surgeons change the oil in their car? Or the spark Plugs? I am sure they are capable with the right training, and they might be able to watch a video and realize the location and do it. But I expect they would spill the oil all over and or drop something down into the cylinder. Oppps. Yet, over time they would get better and better and then watching a video could help them, but they are ALREADY TRAINED at the subject at hand then.





Apache26b said:


> Yes even whatever deadly and misterious art you know.



Nothing mysterious, if you had read my profile (* I am using your own responses back at you  *) you might ave realized what I train and teach. As my ID is my name you could have done a search on this site or even on the internet. 
By the way, Nice Passive aggressive insult and attack though. Did I make you think? Did I challenge your world view? If so, then good. But, your anger should not be at me, if you seem something that needs to be reviewed or changed.





Apache26b said:


> As for your "issue" with my distance from any good schools, other than the 2 I already mentioned the closest school from me is 2 hours one way.



I have no issue. I have no ownership in your training. I do get asked all the time to come and train people for free because they cannot drive to train with me. Seriously? Yes. 
I drove over an hour one way in good traffic, in bad traffic it could be two or three hours one way. I paid for private lessons to improve myself and my training. Many others did not do it as it was too far to drive or the cost was too much. So they did not have the priority I or others did. If you do not set it as a priority then how can anyone help you with your training.





Apache26b said:


> I am a dissabled vet so springing for that kinda money is kinda out of the question for me. Unless you would like to chip in. Lol And that last patagraph.



Disabled. I am sorry to hear that. I am an engineer and I have the Knack (* insert screams here  to keep it light and upbeat as you suggested *). More people will have respect for you and that is cool. 
By the way are you really Apache? If not can I have my COUNTRY and land back? I will ask kindly. Please.





Apache26b said:


> Lol WOW Are you trying to keep me off drugs or dvd's? That sounds like something from an after school special. Look at your self and realise where you are, my question to you is how important is thos to you. Very melodromatic.


Not Dramatic at all. Just in your face real life questions. I would have expected anyone who capitalized ARMY and been in for 7.5 years (* which meant you got out early either through injury or medical (* physical or mental *) or other than honorable or ... *) so I figured you could take someone getting in your face with direct questions. If I hurt your feelings, that was not my intention.







Apache26b said:


> If you will look back at my posts I am not new to the martial arts at all. I do have expierianced partners to work with. And my question was by no meens what was anyone's opinion of dvd training. It was why are folks who ask about it almost always beraited with anything but encouragement.



Why do I need to review all your posts and posting history here?  Ok. I will. After you give me a summary of my posting history here and do some of your own homework on this site. (* Once again using your own responses back at you to see how you respond.  HINT: Search for me and look in the Great Debate are before you decide to nuclear on me and yourself.  *)





Apache26b said:


> I have been an assistant instructor at more than one schools.


Assistant instructor? Ok I have a yellow belt and they sometimes work with white belts. I guess they could be called an assistant instructor. Is this the case? Did you just travel around and train for a while and not get rank? Or did you get rank in something?




Apache26b said:


> I have been an assistant instructor at more than one schools. I don't mean to come off as rude but I don't need and didn't ask for anyone's opinion.



But (* But re used to negate the previous statement or to contradict them *), You did ask why? This, by the way is asking for peoples opinions. I will grant you as an engineer most of the general population will not consider me a person or people, so you may not have been asking for my opinion specifically. I will grant you that point in this debate.





Apache26b said:


> I just wondeted why the mention of them makes everyone so mean and mad.




I was not mean. I was not mad. I asked specific questions and you got mad and mean with the insults and passive aggressive attitude. Maybe if you go back and look at those other threads you might see that something similar may have happened. 
Just because two people disagree does not mean that they are being mean or insulting each other.





Apache26b said:


> It's like that person training in that manner robs the ones who go to the dojo of something.



This sentence is not connecting to the rest, nor does it make sense to me. I apologize for not understanding you here. Can you explain your point you were trying to make? Thanks.






Apache26b said:


> As for questioning me if I am taking the easy way out you don't know me so I will try and not take that as the insult I usualy do.



That is good as I did not mean to insult a I stated, yet to ask specific questions for you and others reading this thread to think and review and then decide to respond or to do something about it themselves or both.





Apache26b said:


> But I asure you it isn't that. And don't get too ticked at my quips at ya.



So you used But. Does that mean I did insult you? Or does that mean you did take it so? Or that you usually dont but in this case you do?
As to your remarks, I know where I am in my training and teaching. I know what I am capable of doing and support. I have asked the questions, and I asked them of myself from time to time to see if I am still on the right path. I personally see nothing wrong with that. Yet, I really wonder if you were not being passive aggressive to try to get me to reply mean or insulting so you write, LOOK! He is being mean to me so my point was right! Because many people just have to be right. When it is possible for both to be right, yet there are those who think others have to be wrong as the only way they can be right.





Apache26b said:


> I'm just trying to keep the mood as light as possible.



I see you wrote this. Yet, I wonder as I have stated. We will see depending upon your reply if any. If you reply back seriously and on topic then that is so. If you reply LOL and move on then maybe. If you reply back with insults veiled or direct, then I will have to wonder if you are not being trollish. 





Apache26b said:


> Some folks seem to get pretty mad about this subject.


Not me. I do not have a horse in this race. I have an opinion as an instructor and a senior in two arts that I teach to pass on to others.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 16, 2011)

Apache26b said:


> noone  was rude to me. I started this thread after reading the same old stuff over and over again on not just this site bit EVERY ma forum I found (i was searching the net looking for reviews of specific programs) there was someone being scolded for even considering the idea. The question wasn't about this site in particular but that more to ma community ad a whole. And i chose this site because the people here seemed to be the most level headed. I gave my situation at the beginning to suggest that at least in some cases dvds may be acceptable as an alternative when good instruction is not available. I would like to stress the word good in that last sentence. My original question has been answered. Thanks



Glad You got what You wanted 

Id advise Emphasizing the Underlined Part in Future though - That way noone will jump to any Conclusions.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 17, 2011)

Apache26b said:


> noone  was rude to me. I started this thread after reading the same old stuff over and over again on not just this site bit EVERY ma forum I found (i was searching the net looking for reviews of specific programs) there was someone being scolded for even considering the idea. The question wasn't about this site in particular but that more to ma community ad a whole. And i chose this site because the people here seemed to be the most level headed. I gave my situation at the beginning to suggest that at least in some cases dvds may be acceptable as an alternative when good instruction is not available. I would like to stress the word good in that last sentence. My original question has been answered. Thanks



So let's get this straight.... 

No-one was rude to you, or nasty to you, and your question was based on the way you saw people responding to this type of question in many places, rather than just here, yet you posted as if it was the responces you saw on this site? Additionally you saw the same opinion of DVD/Book learning as a primary method no matter where you went, or who was answering, yet you were still looking for someone here to tell you that it was an acceptable alternative if "good instruction" wasn't immediately accessible to you? Why would you think you would get a different answer than every single other answer you'd seen from everyone else no matter what site you were looking on?

And as far as "acceptable as an alternative when good instruction is not available", to be blunt again, it is available. You just aren't in a position to take advantage of it, or to make the sacrifices required to take advantage of it. Takenouchi Ryu is available to me, with good instruction, all I have to do is move to Japan, get an introduction, make a good impression, learn the language, be respectful, and train hard. Simple!

Oh, and "as an alternative", honestly, it's not an alternative. Mainly as it's not really instruction. Not without feedback. So what you're actually saying is "if I don't want to attend any of the schools available to me, and don't/feel I can't do what I need to do to learn from a school I'd be happier to attend, can I just get these DVDs and learn the system?", and the answer is "no". Even the best DVD's are only as good as an instructor who shows something, then leaves the room, providing no feedback, no correction, and so on. You'd actually be better off at the bad school with the DVD's as a supplement, as the "live" school would provide you with people to train with, and a frame of reference to allow you to actually get something out of the DVD's... but that only works if it's the same system, or an incredibly similar one (honestly, even if it is an incredibly similar one, you can still get it completely wrong by going from the DVD's).

I'll see if I can show you what I mean.

This first clip is a group who have no direct instructor, with their teacher passing away a number of years ago.





This next group is the mainline, under the current Soke, getting personal attention and correction as they progress.





And this is a clip which shows the current Soke teaching, and correcting finer details of the short sword kata, such as the body position, which can be missed, mis-interpretted, or just completely wrong if someone isn't there correcting you as you go.





Hopefully you can see what we mean by actual instruction, as well as the pitfalls of not having proper instruction in the first place.


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## punisher73 (Nov 17, 2011)

Anyone else find it funny to compare fighting to brain surgery?

Just as an example of learning via video with no instructor.  UFC Champion Evan Tanner, had no grappling teacher.  He learned from watching videos and then getting together with friends and training the heck out of it until they could get it to work.

This discussion is really about learning to fight vs. passing on an artform or learning a style.  If you are learning to fight, then the most important part is getting lots of training partners and practicing your material.  If it's wrong, it is very self-correcting.  If you are looking for subtleties and an artform, then you are going to need a person trained in that specific method that knows all of the material and details.

But, MANY good fighters learned through trial and error by getting into lots of fights.  Painful, but not brain surgery and not all that dificult.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 17, 2011)

At the end of the day your a grown man and a Vet why on earth do you give too craps about what people think about your black belt.  If you find a DVD and enjoy what you see then have fun learn what you can and live your life. Dont be concerned with what "others" may think of you esp on a Martial Arts forum where Id bet not "everyone" that claims to be a black belt or an instructor really is. Its your life man live it.


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## MJS (Nov 19, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> At the end of the day your a grown man and a Vet why on earth do you give too craps about what people think about your black belt.



He apparently cared enough to ask the question here, even though the answers here are the same on other forums, and on numerous other threads on this forum.  




> If you find a DVD and enjoy what you see then have fun learn what you can and live your life.



Which is fine, as long as the person doing so, understands that the 'training' they're getting from the dvd, will always be sub-par.



> Dont be concerned with what "others" may think of you esp on a Martial Arts forum where Id bet not "everyone" that claims to be a black belt or an instructor really is. Its your life man live it.



Much like someone who joins this forum, and puts in a bogus real name, you're right, I'm sure there're some that inflate their rank.  However, there are alot of people on here who are legit martial artists.  IMO, it should be obvious who those people are.


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## shihansmurf (Nov 21, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> At the end of the day your a grown man and a Vet why on earth do you give too craps about what people think about your black belt. If you find a DVD and enjoy what you see then have fun learn what you can and live your life. Dont be concerned with what "others" may think of you esp on a Martial Arts forum where Id bet not "everyone" that claims to be a black belt or an instructor really is. Its your life man live it.



QFT.  I think we worry a bit too much about the precieved value of our rank instead of getting good training. If you're happy in what you're training, irrespective of the medium, then pursue what you want to do.

Mark


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## shihansmurf (Nov 21, 2011)

MJS said:


> Which is fine, as long as the person doing so, understands that the 'training' they're getting from the dvd, will always be sub-par.
> 
> Much like someone who joins this forum, and puts in a bogus real name, you're right, I'm sure there're some that inflate their rank. However, there are alot of people on here who are legit martial artists. IMO, it should be obvious who those people are.



Also true on both accounts.  While I am a big fan of videos as a suppliment or even sole training on a closely related subject that one already has quite a bit of skill in, there is absolutely no substitute for mat time with a qualified instructor. I am currently working my way through the IKCA material. I have a BB in EPAK along with many years in Shotokan and a lot of boxing. I'm enjoying the process and the feedback from Mr LeRoux is outstanding, but I would jump at the chance to get into a school where they teach that system.

As to your last point....

Its just the nature of forums. Its funny how fast one can spot the frauds.

Mark


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 22, 2011)

*First off let me say I am a big fan of books, dvds, video you name it on the Martial Sciences!
*
However, as the only medium of learning it is a poor choice.  Used for reference from previous training with an instructor it can be an excellent source of information.  No one here is saying that DVD's are bad but instead that it is better to learn from an instructor and then utilize dvd's and books as refence.  If you attempt to learn from a book or a dvd you will invariably miss all the fine points.  These fine details are really what seperate a good martial practitioner from a poor one. (that and desire)  My advice would be to find someone to learn from train as much as you can and then supplement that training with dvd's, book's, etc.  In my system of Instinctive Response Training I have set it up so that practitioner's can train with instructors and then also learn from dvd's and book's and yes even some online training videos.  However, if someone were to say: hey can I learn your system online or from your dvd's and book's?  I would absolutely tell them *no*.  They would invariably not learn it correctly or to a level of competency!  Hope that helps in your decision!


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## ballen0351 (Nov 22, 2011)

MJS said:


> He apparently cared enough to ask the question here, even though the answers here are the same on other forums, and on numerous other threads on this forum.


I know my point was if he is who he says he is (disabled Vet)  he could have a black belt in Colorado basket weaving for all I care he dont need to feel below anyone hes already earned his respect in my book. 






> Which is fine, as long as the person doing so, understands that the 'training' they're getting from the dvd, will always be sub-par.


says who?  If someone gives 100% effort learning the best he can from from a quality training tape he will be head and shoulders over a guy going the motions at a crappy school 1 or 2 days a week.  But again I go back to my 1st comment he has nothing to prove to me.





> Much like someone who joins this forum, and puts in a bogus real name, you're right, I'm sure there're some that inflate their rank.  However, there are alot of people on here who are legit martial artists.  IMO, it should be obvious who those people are.


Im sure there are more then you think.  Just like police forums there are a ton of wanna be cops bragging about this and that when in real life they are prob 14 yr old kids.

Maybe my point was lost in  my 1st post.  I was trying to tell the OP that hes going nothing to prove to anyone and nothing to be ashamed of no matter what path he chooses.  That purple heart means more in my book then any black belt.  His concern as I read it was more people looking down on his belt because he wanted to learn from a DVD and my comments were more directed to that and not the quality of the training itself.  

I personally enjoy going to class and learning from a quality instructor.   I drive and hour and a half to go to the dojo I picked and I pass at least 11 other schools on the trip  but thats me and this was the school I thought fit me best.  I enjoy working with other people going hands on as well.  They are 2 important aspects of training he will miss out on. I learn better by doing and not watching I could never learn anything from a training tape I have to do it to understand it.  Others are not like that and can simply watch a clip of something and then do it.  Thats me and I wont judge anyone else on the path they take.  We all should be having a good time learning and if we are not any longer it may be time to move on.


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## MJS (Nov 23, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> I know my point was if he is who he says he is (disabled Vet) he could have a black belt in Colorado basket weaving for all I care he dont need to feel below anyone hes already earned his respect in my book.



Ok.







> says who? If someone gives 100% effort learning the best he can from from a quality training tape he will be head and shoulders over a guy going the motions at a crappy school 1 or 2 days a week. But again I go back to my 1st comment he has nothing to prove to me.



Says alot of people.  Someone on this thread, mentioned a UFC fighter, how he learned grappling thru dvd.  My question is:  Did he have any prior training?  I ask that, because like I said myself, it'd be easier to pick things up due to that.  I could pop in a Tatum dvd and pick up stuff, whereas my wife, whos never trained a day, would be lost.  Again, a ref. tool...fine.  A sole learning tool....not so fine.   Are you assuming that the person who trains with a teacher will be getting crappy instruction?  That may be but not in every case.  Sorry, no matter how you try to slice it, the dvd student will always be sub-par.  Would you rewire your house from reading a book?  Maybe people shouldnt do drivers ed, but instead, just get behind the wheel, head to the highway in rush hour traffic, and wing it.  Come on man.






> Im sure there are more then you think. Just like police forums there are a ton of wanna be cops bragging about this and that when in real life they are prob 14 yr old kids.



And as I said, those people should be obvious to spot.  Ive banned people from this forum, only to have them pop up under a new name.  Doesn't take long to figure out.  Why?  Because once a dumb ***, always a dumb ***, and their posting habits are the tell tale sign.   My point was simply...for every BS'er, there are a dozen legit people.  



> Maybe my point was lost in my 1st post. I was trying to tell the OP that hes going nothing to prove to anyone and nothing to be ashamed of no matter what path he chooses. That purple heart means more in my book then any black belt. His concern as I read it was more people looking down on his belt because he wanted to learn from a DVD and my comments were more directed to that and not the quality of the training itself.



Which brings me to....why repost the obvious?  Was he really hoping to see something different?  Did he really think somehow, he'd get different replies?  As we see, that didn't happen.



> I personally enjoy going to class and learning from a quality instructor. I drive and hour and a half to go to the dojo I picked and I pass at least 11 other schools on the trip but thats me and this was the school I thought fit me best. I enjoy working with other people going hands on as well. They are 2 important aspects of training he will miss out on. I learn better by doing and not watching I could never learn anything from a training tape I have to do it to understand it. Others are not like that and can simply watch a clip of something and then do it. Thats me and I wont judge anyone else on the path they take. We all should be having a good time learning and if we are not any longer it may be time to move on.



Yup, to each his own.  All I can do, is offer advice....if they take it, great, if not, thats great too! LOL!  I know what I do and I wouldn't change it for anything.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 23, 2011)

MJS said:


> Says alot of people. Someone on this thread, mentioned a UFC fighter, how he learned grappling thru dvd. My question is: Did he have any prior training? I ask that, because like I said myself, it'd be easier to pick things up due to that. I could pop in a Tatum dvd and pick up stuff, whereas my wife, whos never trained a day, would be lost. Again, a ref. tool...fine. A sole learning tool....not so fine.  Are you assuming that the person who trains with a teacher will be getting crappy instruction? That may be but not in every case. Sorry, no matter how you try to slice it, the dvd student will always be sub-par. Would you rewire your house from reading a book? Maybe people shouldnt do drivers ed, but instead, just get behind the wheel, head to the highway in rush hour traffic, and wing it. Come on man.
> .



There is no Always in life other then taxes and death
To say everyone the goes to a brick and mortar school will get better training then someone from a DVD is wrong.  For that to be true every brick and morter school would have to have a quailty teacher and every student in class would have to give it 100%. 
 There is a school near me that teaches "Native Amerian Martial Arts" they run around in total sterotype Indian garb with tan leather moccosins and the whole 9 yards, they "train" with rocks attached to sticks as tomahawks.  The instructor/ owner is a white dude with red hair from New Jersey yet he wears the big feathered head dress.  Instead of belts you get colored feathers.  The place is a total joke.  Now take a guy going there say hes not really trying just going thru the motions for something to do, or to just loose some weight vs a guy that gives 110% studing from a Dvd or say Higaonna Sensei clips on you tube because he has no extra money to actually pay for a class but he bust his butt and trains hard.  Who is getting the better education? Im not saying all DVD training is equal or better but you cant say All DVD training is sub par to actual human teaching. Most times yes I agree with you but you cant say always.


P.S I have rewired my garage and an addition to my house only using a book.  I also learned how to tile my bath room floor and shower from a book.  I also learned the very complex Transportation article from a book. Constitutional law from a book, I learned to work on my cars from books.


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## shihansmurf (Nov 23, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> P.S I have rewired my garage and an addition to my house only using a book. I also learned how to tile my bath room floor and shower from a book. I also learned the very complex Transportation article from a book. Constitutional law from a book, I learned to work on my cars from books.



I've read a lot of cook books.

I couldn't make an omlette untill I actually grabbed some eggs and a skillet and started cooking. 

The biggest issue with video training is the lack of physical interation and correction. I'm saying this a someone who advocates video instruction, so please understand that I'm not bashing the methodology in general. I think that there is a wealth on good quality distancelearning systems out there. I think that there is a ton of doodoo out there as well. Without a solid base of knowledge I don't see how a student can realistically know the difference.

I am working my way through the IKCA material. I have an extensive base of knowledge and ability in strikning arts that includes 5 years of training in Parker Kenpo. I have been very happy with the results I've had. I wouldn't consider video training on anything outside of any area that I had experience in. I'm not convinced that zero skill to mastery is possible through video. I certainly wouldn't try to pick up BJJ skills in this manner.

Its interesting that in these threads that people always point how they learned to play guitar or plumbing in this way and equating it to martial arts. 

Here is the counter question.

Would you be willing to teach yourself skydiving from a book then fling yourself out of an airplane?

Just a thought,
Mark


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## ballen0351 (Nov 23, 2011)

shihansmurf said:


> I've read a lot of cook books.
> 
> I couldn't make an omlette untill I actually grabbed some eggs, and a skillet and started cooking.
> 
> ...



I dont disagree with you at all. I agree that 95% of the time you will get far better training from actual hands on training going to class. What I am saying is its not 100%. Im not one to judge anyone on how they decide is best for them to learn martial arts. If he feels DVD is the way to go well god bless him have fun and learn the best he can he has nothing to prove to me. If you were to ask whats the best way to learn a martial art I would say find a quality teacher and learn all you can. His question as I read it was were people going to look at him as less of a martial artist if he learned from a DVD and I was just saying in MY opinion he owes us nothing and can train any way he wants.


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## shihansmurf (Nov 23, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> I dont disagree with you at all. I agree that 95% of the time you will get far better training from actual hands on training going to class. What I am saying is its not 100%. Im not one to judge anyone on how they decide is best for them to learn martial arts. If he feels DVD is the way to go well god bless him have fun and learn the best he can he has nothing to prove to me. If you were to ask whats the best way to learn a martial art I would say find a quality teacher and learn all you can. His question as I read it was were people going to look at him as less of a martial artist if he learned from a DVD and I was just saying in MY opinion he owes us nothing and can train any way he wants.



Gotcha.

I was just kinda riffing on the thread drift.

As to your point. I'm with ya 100% A few years ago I had an epiphany. I realized the about 1/3 of the people were goning to look at what I do and teach and think its awesome. About 1/3 are going to be ambivilant. The remaining 1/3 are going to think its crap. I realized I only have time and energy to devote to one third of them. So....

Once i realized that, I stopped being concerned about what most folks out here in cyberspace have to say in reference to me or my students. I respect the judgement of the people that trained me and I respect their evaluation of my skill. My students are happy with the training they are receiving and the school enviornment that I have created. There a a few people here and on KT that I have developed respect for their opinions and many I don't. Once I stopped being concerned about the vast majority of people's view of me I began to enjoy the online experience more and I've been able to leanr a great deal from many here. It was a liberating experience.

Just a few rambling observations and anecdotes from when I'm supposed to be working.
Mark

P.S. As an active duty soldier, I appreciate the sentiment you expressed towards one of my brothers. Thanks for that.


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## Champ-Pain (Nov 23, 2011)

Great advice and very good points by all members on this subject. I will only add this: A very dear friend of mine, who now holds a 6th or 7th dan in Judo - learned most, if not all his judo by watching DVDs and reading instructional books, and although he NEVER competed, at all - he did become a USA Olympic head coach (not sure what year, though) and he runs one of the top judo clubs in the USA. I don't believe this method will work for everyone - but it sure worked for him.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 23, 2011)

shihansmurf said:


> P.S. As an active duty soldier, I appreciate the sentiment you expressed towards one of my brothers. Thanks for that.


Im just a crusty old former Marine myself


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## MJS (Nov 23, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> There is no Always in life other then taxes and death
> To say everyone the goes to a brick and mortar school will get better training then someone from a DVD is wrong. For that to be true every brick and morter school would have to have a quailty teacher and every student in class would have to give it 100%.
> There is a school near me that teaches "Native Amerian Martial Arts" they run around in total sterotype Indian garb with tan leather moccosins and the whole 9 yards, they "train" with rocks attached to sticks as tomahawks. The instructor/ owner is a white dude with red hair from New Jersey yet he wears the big feathered head dress. Instead of belts you get colored feathers. The place is a total joke. Now take a guy going there say hes not really trying just going thru the motions for something to do, or to just loose some weight vs a guy that gives 110% studing from a Dvd or say Higaonna Sensei clips on you tube because he has no extra money to actually pay for a class but he bust his butt and trains hard. Who is getting the better education? Im not saying all DVD training is equal or better but you cant say All DVD training is sub par to actual human teaching. Most times yes I agree with you but you cant say always.
> 
> ...



LOL, honestly, if I saw that school, I'd probably die laughing.  Thank you for the laugh today.   However, to say that anyone who learns from a book is getting quality training...well, we're going to have to agree to disagree sir.  Sorry, but the person who puts in the blood, sweat and tears to actually LEARN under a quality teacher, will always be better off.  Thats my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.  I could buy a cook book, but I'll never be a master chef.  If it was that easy, nothing would consist of hands on.  Everyone would take the easy way, and read or buy a dvd.  

DVDs are just another tool in the money making game in martial arts of today.  I'm not asking you or anyone else for that matter, to agree with me.  You're certainly entitled to your opinion.  I'm entitled to mine.  I'll respect your opinion, even though I dont agree.  Like I said, we'll agree to disagree.  

Again, I've done Kenpo for a long time.  I could most likely benefit from Larry Tatums dvd set, and most likely pick up something.  However, were I to fly to see Larry or attend one of his seminars, I'd gain MUCH more than simply watching him on tv, getting no feedback.  The TV isn't going to correct me, Larry will.  Were I to pick up a TKD dvd, I could mimic the moves, but I'm not going to have any understanding of them.  I'll never know the meaning behind what I'm doing.  If thats ok with people, fine, but they're missing out on alot of the art.


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## MJS (Nov 23, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> Great advice and very good points by all members on this subject. I will only add this: A very dear friend of mine, who now holds a 6th or 7th dan in Judo - learned most, if not all his judo by watching DVDs and reading instructional books, and although he NEVER competed, at all - he did become a USA Olympic head coach (not sure what year, though) and he runs one of the top judo clubs in the USA. I don't believe this method will work for everyone - but it sure worked for him.



How did he get ranked?  Did he eventually go to a real teacher, was it via video testing or did he promote himself?


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## Champ-Pain (Nov 23, 2011)

MJS said:


> How did he get ranked?  Did he eventually go to a real teacher, was it via video testing or did he promote himself?


 I'm not sure, but whatever the case - all his dan promotions came via USJF and are recognized by USA Judo... He did not promote himself, though, that much I know for sure.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 24, 2011)

Hmm. Looking through the USJF grading requirements that seems unlikely (that his training if mainly from DVDs/books). There's a range of things that cause me to doubt it, including part of the eligibility for promotion being recommendation from your instructor (non existant if there's only books or DVDs), the amount of time between grades required for non-competitors (12 years between Godan and Rokudan, for instance), and how long DVDs have been around (if he really started with them, hasn't ever competed, yet is ranked at Rokudan or Shichidan). Additionally, part of the requirements include constant dedication to Judo.... which might be hard to demonstrate if you haven't been attending a school. It would seem to me that they were more likely a supplement, which would make sense.

I'd be very interested to know exactly who it is that managed to get a Rokudan or higher without formal instruction or competing, yet also was appointed to a Coaching position on the Olympic team... it seems to me that the Olympic team might want someone who had actually some form of track record, rather than someone who turned up, and said "I learnt from a book, and I have no competition record, but I'm sure I'd be a good coach!"

For reference, the USJF Promotion Requirements can be found here: http://www.usjf.com/public/rank_requirement.pdf


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## Champ-Pain (Nov 26, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> I'm not sure, but whatever the case - all his dan promotions came via USJF and are recognized by USA Judo... He did not promote himself, though, that much I know for sure.


 My friend started reading the books and watching the vids in the early 1970's... his son was part of the judo club that I was a member of, at the time, headed by Sensei Rene Masana. An old school Cuban National champion - in the "open" division, while only weighing about 175 lbs - vs - monsters who weighed far more than himself (Blanco, Montpellier, etc.). Sensei Masana was a great competitor and an even better Sensei. By the time I was 18 y/o, my friend had already earned his blackbelt (he's atleast 12 years older than me) - and when Sensei Masana passed away, he took over the dojo. A dojo that consisted of many National champions - and moved it to another location. Along with all those champions, two other teams also followed him to his new location, becoming what was the strongest team in the US, at that time. Since then, he has instructed and coached several Olympians and like I've already mentioned, became an USA Olympic "head coach". He himself, was the president of Florida Judo Yudanshakai for many years and his team continues to be one of, if not the best in the US. I believe his team won the "best team award" at the 20** jr US Open, where many of his students won medals (most of them Gold). I'm somewhat hiding and withholding his identity, because I'm not sure he'd like others knowing his "not so well kept secret", although I've now provided enough info about him - that I fear someone with enough time on their hands may easily find out his identity. PLEASE, don't post his name if you do. His contributions for judo have been many and he's been great for the sport, for many years, now. He is also responsible for me getting back into judo. after some time away from the sport, promoting me to Nidan and helping me make my own dojo a successful one. I love and respect him for all his accomplishments and all his help - and I consider him my 2nd Sensei.


Obviously, he did get lots of formal training throughout the years - after reading the books and watching the vids - but he never competed, at all.


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## MJS (Nov 27, 2011)

Champ-Pain said:


> I'm not sure, but whatever the case - all his dan promotions came via USJF and are recognized by USA Judo... He did not promote himself, though, that much I know for sure.



Umm....ok.  To each his own I suppose, however, I"d still call this a bit suspect, but thats just me.  I mean, someone learns primarily from books and dvd and then goes to some org. and gets rank, without having to train under a formal teacher???


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