# Too Much Force?



## MJS (Apr 6, 2008)

This is an incident that took place at a college in Michigan. Now, similar things have happened here in CT. at UCONN usually during their annual Spring Fling. And like this case, the majority of the 'problem kids' were outsiders, not students of the school, although some students were at fault.

Typically, when something like this happens, and the police need to respond, people always cry foul and say that the cops used too much force. But, I feel that in cases like this, going on only what I'm reading here, there was no excessive use of force.

Your thoughts?


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## jks9199 (Apr 6, 2008)

MJS said:


> This is an incident that took place at a college in Michigan. Now, similar things have happened here in CT. at UCONN usually during their annual Spring Fling. And like this case, the majority of the 'problem kids' were outsiders, not students of the school, although some students were at fault.
> 
> Typically, when something like this happens, and the police need to respond, people always cry foul and say that the cops used too much force. But, I feel that in cases like this, going on only what I'm reading here, there was no excessive use of force.
> 
> Your thoughts?


As described in the article linked above -- it seems that the police were pretty reasonable in how they chose to control the crowd.

Controlling a large, unruly crowd is difficult, and there's no real set way to do it.  Tactics that work great with one crowd may not work at all with a different crowd.

Bottom line -- they got the job done, with minimal injuries.  Not bad, in my opinion.

But it does lead to a different question...  Why do so many people seem to ignore, tolerate, or even encourage the misbehavior?  When did massive destruction of property (burning or overturning cars, shattering windows, tearing down goal posts, etc) and rioting become a "celebration?"


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 7, 2008)

Text-book appropriate response to a violent civil disturbance.  The police have a DUTY to protect lives and property and restore order!

Here's the thing to keep in mind.....when the police show up and start shouting for a crowd to disperse....the 'innocent' get the HELL OUT OF THERE!  Those that remain and try to escalate the situation are BUYING what happens to them!  It's clear from the article the police showed up, attempted to try to convince the crowd to disperse.....at 0100hrs police attempted to convince the crowd to disperse....an hour later, after about half the crowd had dispersed, the ones who remained (the hardcore rioters) began escalating the situation....and gas was deployed!

Moreover, apparently the crowd started chanting 'for tear gas'......and my philosophy is give the customer WHAT HE WANTS TIMES 10's TEN!  As a cop on the street, i've had suspects tell me to pepperspray them on a NUMBER of resisting occassions....and i've always obliged!  I always noted in my report that the suspect requested to be peppersprayed at which point I obliged him!


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## Andy Moynihan (Apr 7, 2008)

I like Mac.


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## morph4me (Apr 7, 2008)

Considering that the police were considerably outnumbered, I'd say they used remarkable restraint.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 7, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I like Mac.


 
I have to admit that *Mac*'s post made me smile too - or at least the way the scene played out in my head did :lol:.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 7, 2008)

I do not believe the MSU police were out of line at all.  Though I will say this being intimately familiar with their department that they are not always the best in these situations.  Several incidents were contributed by their moving to fast.  Still in the end they have to do exactly what they have to do and I support them in doing so!


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## MJS (Apr 7, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> As described in the article linked above -- it seems that the police were pretty reasonable in how they chose to control the crowd.
> 
> Controlling a large, unruly crowd is difficult, and there's no real set way to do it. Tactics that work great with one crowd may not work at all with a different crowd.
> 
> ...


 
I've often wondered that as well.  You win a game and you go on a rampage?  I'm confused on that one.  Overall, I feel that things were handled good.


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## MJS (Apr 7, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Moreover, apparently the crowd started chanting 'for tear gas'......and my philosophy is give the customer WHAT HE WANTS TIMES 10's TEN! As a cop on the street, i've had suspects tell me to pepperspray them on a NUMBER of resisting occassions....and i've always obliged! I always noted in my report that the suspect requested to be peppersprayed at which point I obliged him!


 
Excellent!!!  Then again, you have to wonder why the hell someone would want to subject themselves to tear gas, OC, etc??


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## MJS (Apr 7, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I do not believe the MSU police were out of line at all. Though I will say this being intimately familiar with their department that they are not always the best in these situations. Several incidents were contributed by their moving to fast. Still in the end they have to do exactly what they have to do and I support them in doing so!


 
People say the same thing when something goes down at schools here, regarding the police moving in too quickly.  On one hand, I can understand the mentality of wanting to stop something before it gets out of hand.  Then again, the views of what is/is not out of hand always differ.

But, as you said, in the end, they do what they have to do.  Will everyone be happy?  Nope.


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## Drac (Apr 7, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> But it does lead to a different question... Why do so many people seem to ignore, tolerate, or even encourage the misbehavior? When did massive destruction of property (burning or overturning cars, shattering windows, tearing down goal posts, etc) and rioting become a "celebration?"


 
I always wondered that myself??


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 7, 2008)

MJS said:


> Excellent!!! Then again, you have to wonder why the hell someone would want to subject themselves to tear gas, OC, etc??


 One word 'ALCOHOL!'  The men (and it's ALMOST ALWAYS men!) who 'requested' Pepperspray from me were all intoxicated (and in some cases also drugged) and very beliggerent....and when told that they need to quit resisting or be sprayed....all said something to the effect of 'GO ON AND SPRAY ME!'

In fact, the very first guy I ever peppersprayed, YEARS AGO, I had just fought (ALONE!) in a motel room, finally wrestled him in to handcuffs and dragged him to the patrol car.  He was drunk and methed out and began attempting to headbutt the window out of my patrol car.  I told him to stop or I was going to Pepperspray him.  His words are instructive here.



> Me: Quit, or i'm going to Pepperspray you.
> 
> Him: GO AHEAD AND SPRAY ME, I LIKE <spray> IT!
> 
> ...




I think most intoxicated men think they are tougher than they are and that Pepperspray or Tear Gas won't effect THEM!  And, while there are folks who can fight through it......it's NOT a PLEASANT EXPERIENCE even if you can!


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## KenpoTex (Apr 7, 2008)

> Him: <Cough>, <Cough>, OH GOD! OH GOD IT BURNS! OH GOD! <Cough> I CAN'T BREATH! <Cough> GET ME OUT OF H<Cough> Here.....I'M SORRY <Cough> I'M SORRY!
> 
> Me: I thought you liked it?
> 
> ...


:lfao:


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 8, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> :lfao:


  I did learn a valuable lesson.......as I was scrubbing the inside of the car out at the end of the shift.....if you MUST spray them, take them OUT of the car first!


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## Adept (Jun 1, 2008)

MJS said:


> Excellent!!! Then again, you have to wonder why the hell someone would want to subject themselves to tear gas, OC, etc??


 
Well, I've only been sprayed once and it was in a pretty hairy situation where I didn't have the luxury of letting it incapacitate me and my adrenaline was well and truly pumping.

I'd like to be sprayed again, just so I know what it feels like with a clear head. having already had a taste, I know it hurts but also that it passes. I honestly think I'd get a giggle out of it!


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## kyosa (Oct 3, 2008)

I have only been in one riot and that was early in my career.  At the time we had minimal riot gear and that was all kept at the station so someone had to go get it and we went back in groups of 2-3 to don the gear and go back to the line and let others get their gear on.  One officer next to me was struck in the head with a beer bottle and had to be carried away.  Beer bottles, 2 x 4's etc were being thrown at us-couple thousand college students and maybe 50-75 officers from various agencies...not a feel good situation.  I have to agree tell them to disperse and anyone that is left is going to get whatever it takes to make them disperse.  An old saying comes to mind "stupidity should be painfull."


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