# DTE Combat Wing Chun Lap Sau drill fighting application



## Jake104 (Aug 29, 2016)

DTE Chief Instructor Martin Torres explaining the Lap sau drill and pak sau and how we in DTE transition from drills into fighting application. We are working the clinch..Not sure if you can see in the video but the wooden dummie pretty much saved my head from going into the wall. I kind of giggle cause I'm posting all my weight on the dummy and if I didn't react quick my head would of went through the wall. This is a demonstration and only at 20%.. I do look tired in video cause we were at the end of a 3hr training session..But I DO have a good stance and structure some on here will attest to that....Even better since the last time I trained with local members of MAT..So you can see how easily he blew though me..


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 30, 2016)

I don't do the cyclical lap Sao drill the way shown at the start, pointless. But the clinch stuff is cool not dissimilar to what I like to teach. Nice to see someone not pigeon holing lap and pak as punch defenses...


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## geezer (Aug 30, 2016)

For those who don't know about him ...Martin isn't really a Wing Chun guy. His outlook is much broader than WC, but WC concepts definitely figure into the picture. Some of us see DTE as "What JKD _should_ be!"

or ... I think of Martin as our answer to Alan Orr, except that Martin doesn't care if you see the WC in his stuff or not. The point is that is works! I'm just sorry that I live on the wrong side of the valley and don't get to train with you guys anymore. Gonna have to fix that. 

Now for the negative side of my commentary. Jake, get some new pants!


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## KPM (Aug 30, 2016)

Ok.  So what exactly is "DTE"?


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## Danny T (Aug 30, 2016)

KPM said:


> Ok.  So what exactly is "DTE"?


DTE - Fighting Arts (Direct Torres Eskrima) - History


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## geezer (Aug 30, 2016)

Danny T said:


> DTE - Fighting Arts (Direct Torres Eskrima) - History



I know that article sounds a lot like so many guys pushing their stuff. Take away the promotion and the short version is that Martin is just a guy that has been around and has been exposed to a lot of stuff. What's different is that he really gets the concept behind all the frills. More importantly he can look at what a person does, regardless of "style", and help them be more effective.

30 some years ago he learned WT and Latosa Escrima alongside me from guys Like Leung Ting, Rene Latosa, Brady Brazil..... Now (when I can) I go to him to figure out how to make my stuff more functional. He's really a top notch coach.


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 30, 2016)

geezer said:


> For those who don't know about him ...Martin isn't really a Wing Chun guy. His outlook is much broader than WC, but WC concepts definitely figure into the picture. Some of us see DTE as "What JKD _should_ be!"
> 
> or ... I think of Martin as our answer to Alan Orr, except that Martin doesn't care if you see the WC in his stuff or not. The point is that is works! I'm just sorry that I live on the wrong side of the valley and don't get to train with you guys anymore. Gonna have to fix that.
> 
> Now for the negative side of my commentary. Jake, get some new pants!



I have a sneaky suspicion that Alan doesn't care if people think his stuff looks like wing Chun or not...


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## Danny T (Aug 30, 2016)

geezer said:


> I know that article sounds a lot like so many guys pushing their stuff. Take away the promotion and the short version is that Martin is just a guy that has been around and has been exposed to a lot of stuff. What's different is that he really gets the concept behind all the frills. More importantly he can look at what a person does, regardless of "style", and help them be more effective.
> 
> 30 some years ago he learned WT and Latosa Escrima alongside me from guys Like Leung Ting, Rene Latosa, Brady Brazil..... Now (when I can) I go to him to figure out how to make my stuff more functional. He's really a top notch coach.


Have met him twice. Very good experiences.


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## Danny T (Aug 30, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> I have a sneaky suspicion that Alan doesn't care if people think his stuff looks like wing Chun or not...


My Sifu often states; "Form - Drills - Application. Application may not look anything like the form or the drill."


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 30, 2016)

Wish more people shared this view Danny, really tired of hearing people say " but it doesn't look like wing Chun"


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## Danny T (Aug 30, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> Wish more people shared this view Danny, really tired of hearing people say " but it doesn't look like wing Chun"


Many people become slaves to the system rather than using the system as a method of training and then just doing whatever one must do to win a fight.


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 30, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Many people become slaves to the system rather than using the system as a method of training and then just doing whatever one must do to win a fight.



Man you are a kindred spirit, that's EXACTLY the way I've grown to see the art...


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## Phobius (Aug 30, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Many people become slaves to the system rather than using the system as a method of training and then just doing whatever one must do to win a fight.



You can never be the system anyway as a system can never be used to fight. What we can do with a system is obtain a style that works for us and this style is what we will use while fighting. The more we train WC the more this style may adhere to the concepts. That moment we need to think in terms of rules as to what we should do next during a fight is the moment we already got beaten up.


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## Danny T (Aug 30, 2016)

Phobius said:


> You can never be the system anyway as a system can never be used to fight. What we can do with a system is obtain a style that works for us and this style is what we will use while fighting. The more we train WC the more this style may adhere to the concepts. That moment we need to think in terms of rules as to what we should do next during a fight is the moment we already got beaten up.


Sure. However many enslave themselves to the systems method of training and never transition from drills to application. They adhere to drill/s as application rather than understanding and using the attribute/s the drill/s develop. How you apply may well be different to how I apply.


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## Jake104 (Aug 30, 2016)

Im glad people are enjoying the video. My reason for posting it is to pay homage to him..He's a great martial artist and teacher and deserves some recognition!

 I'll chime in later when I got time.. geezer your one to talk about shorts..


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 30, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Sure. However many enslave themselves to the systems method of training and never transition from drills to application. They adhere to drill/s as application rather than understanding and using the attribute/s the drill/s develop. How you apply may well be different to how I apply.


Agree, I take the side effects/attributes obtained from forms/drills/sparring into battle not the drills themselves. This is why so many expect applied wing Chun to look like drills eg pak da/lap da combinations etc. I have had several people recently come and watch my class as prospective students and because my expression of wing Chun doesn't look like Donnie Yen in Ip man 3 they were somewhat confused...


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 30, 2016)

Jake104 said:


> Im glad people are enjoying the video. My reason for posting it is to pay homage to him..He's a great teacher and deserves some recognition!
> 
> I'll chime in later when I got time.. geezer your one talk about shorts..



Jake, any more clips?


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## KPM (Aug 30, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Many people become slaves to the system rather than using the system as a method of training and then just doing whatever one must do to win a fight.



I agree to an extent.  But then, if when fighting if someone isn't doing anything they've been training all those years, then maybe then should be training something else!  ;-)    If people resort to kickboxing in a hard spar or real fight, then why not just train kickboxing?  Wouldn't that be more efficient?

After all, boxers look like boxers when they fight AND when they train.  Kickboxers look like kickboxers when they fight AND when they train.  BJJ guys look like BJJ guys when they fight AND when they train.   Why should Wing Chun be any different?

Now, I'm not saying that when a Wing Chun guy fights he should look just like his forms and drills!  But if you put a Wing Chun guy in the ring with a kickboxer and a neutral observer can't tell which fighter is which....there is a problem there!


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 30, 2016)

KPM said:


> I agree to an extent.  But then, if when fighting if someone isn't doing anything they've been training all those years, then maybe then should be training something else!  ;-)    If people resort to kickboxing in a hard spar or real fight, then why not just train kickboxing?  Wouldn't that be more efficient?
> 
> After all, boxers look like boxers when they fight AND when they train.  Kickboxers look like kickboxers when they fight AND when they train.  BJJ guys look like BJJ guys when they fight AND when they train.   Why should Wing Chun be any different?
> 
> Now, I'm not saying that when a Wing Chun guy fights he should look just like his forms and drills!  But if you put a Wing Chun guy in the ring with a kickboxer and a neutral observer can't tell which fighter is which....there is a problem there!



I thought you'd got past all this "if it doesn't look like wing Chun then it isn't " argument? I seem to recall on the other forum you argued with people including Alan Orr about this subject exhaustively. This is all down to perception and belief systems. Why does Wing Chun tend to look like kickboxing when used in the ring/cage?

Well for one thing the art contains all the component parts (and more) that kickboxing DOES contain. Long bridge, short bridge kicks,punches,knees, clinch fighting elbows etc etc. These are the high percentage techniques that work in many stand up systems. 

When you get 2 guys from traditional systems, if they do a "showcase bout" where it's all about showing things that make their art "unique" then typically when they get into their respective fighting "stances" and feel each other out, you will see the difference between  the Silat fighter and the wing Chun guy but once they clash and "mean it" postures and fancy stances go out of the window, the hands get higher to ensure the head is protected and the trench fighting begins.
 Look up the MUSU fights on YouTube where there are dozens of full contact fights between Bagua, Hsing I, wing Chun,Jkd etc.You will see guys who sometimes start by demonstrating beautiful executions of traditional forms before getting in the ring and duking it out. As soon as the pressure is on the "kickboxing" almost invariably kicks in. When I see Alan's guys fight their stand up phases always contain (to me) good wing Chun principles. Anyways, what's so bad about kickboxing anyway?


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## Jake104 (Aug 30, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> I thought you'd got past all this "if it doesn't look like wing Chun then it isn't " argument? I seem to recall on the other forum you argued with people including Alan Orr about this subject exhaustively. This is all down to perception and belief systems. Why does Wing Chun tend to look like kickboxing when used in the ring/cage?
> 
> Well for one thing the art contains all the component parts (and more) that kickboxing DOES contain. Long bridge, short bridge kicks,punches,knees, clinch fighting elbows etc etc. These are the high percentage techniques that work in many stand up systems.
> 
> ...


Nice post!

 Fighting isn't always pretty or have to have a distinctive look to be effective.. Take a look at the Diaz brothers. Nick used to throw a jab/straight punch that was very effective.. But it looked ugly as hell, you couldn't tell if it was boxing Wing Chun TDK JKD..? Whatever it was it worked great for him..My teacher has a saying " it's all the same crap". He means exactly what you said. The high percentage techniques that work are going to look similar in all arts.. Plus the tighter and more direct you can make that movement, the harder it will be to distinguish between this art or that art.. IMO It's the principles like you said. It's too hard to determine an art by watching a video or fight. Fighting is fighting!

If my teacher didn't show the drill or he left out the explanation and people only went off the visual part . I bet most would think he was teaching a grappling art like wrestling.. Really in the video he's using WC concept and principles to achieve the same thing a wrestler might do? He knows there will always be people that just can't or won't except that.. But just like Alan has said in his videos "as long as WE know it's WC and it works". "That's all that matters"?

Another one of Coach Martin's sayings is "we are not eating sandwiches in DTE". Meaning, we don't train were we throw a punch and leave an arm out there so the other guy can do ten techniques. We always train with intent. So if for example someone throws a punch and I decide to tan da or do a traditional lap sao or whatever...The guy throwing that punch isn't going to stop and not throw the cross or back hand.. That punch is coming and coming faster then you think. There is no time for those extra moves when someone has intent. Instead we engage and make the move as direct as possible.. The way he teaches is once you engage that's your move, now it's his.. I'll feel his move at contact by then it's over. So we try to make every movement count..

We train from behind the count. Which IMO is genius, because most people train from in front of the count. By training behind the count it forces us to make our movements sharp and direct so we can get ahead of the count quickly.. We don't rely on speed though..

Another one of Instructor Martin's saying is. "We come to him so he can sharpen are blade". In order to sharpen a blade you take material off, you don't ad material "?... Again making things sharper and more direct. This is why the principles are so important. Otherwise you can get lost in techniques.

Hopefully there will be more video's.. As long as he gives me permission I'll post them.


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## KPM (Aug 31, 2016)

_I thought you'd got past all this "if it doesn't look like wing Chun then it isn't " argument?_

----I said "to an extent."

_Why does Wing Chun tend to look like kickboxing when used in the ring/cage? Well for one thing the art contains all the component parts (and more) that kickboxing DOES contain. Long bridge, short bridge kicks,punches,knees, clinch fighting elbows etc etc. These are the high percentage techniques that work in many stand up systems_.

---Wing Chun has its own structure and mechanics that are different from kickboxing.  Most Wing Chun guys I know don't do wide loopy punches, high round kicks to the head, or wrestling clinches and takedowns....unless they've added that stuff in.  When one completely abandons the distinct mechanics of Wing Chun that they train on a regular basis, can it still be said he is doing Wing Chun?   Check out this video.  Note that it is captioned as "Wing Chun, no MMA" implying this figter is all Wing Chun.  Skip to the 2:30 mark so you don't see the corner guys and tell me if you can figure out which fighter is "Wing Chun no MMA."






_ As soon as the pressure is on the "kickboxing" almost invariably kicks in_.

---I've seen that as well.  But again, if you are going to resort to kickboxing when the pressure is on, why not just train kickboxing?  Wouldn't that be more efficient?   Why is it that a fighter feels like he has to resort to kickboxing to win?  Isn't that a pretty damning statement about "traditional" Wing Chun?


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 31, 2016)

I don't think there's any point arguing with you KPM, I've put my views (as have others) as succinctly as I could on this matter and am happy that what I do in application is wing Chun regardless of wether people think it ain't. If when you spar hard/fight and you look like picture perfect ip man 3 then I'm very happy for you. And btw I didn't say we resort to "pure" kickboxing (if there is such a thing) mechanics under pressure, I suggested the core striking mechanics like punching/kicking/clinch/knees tend to be used. Rooting, correct skeletal alignment, forward pressure, center line control,correct elbow vectors,square body, facing, spatial awareness,timing,sensitivity,gate awareness are many of the "side effects" of wing Chun training that should be evident when A practitioner is under pressure. These attributes don't have to look a certain way to be in existence. If we're gonna split hairs what exactly should a wing Chun knee strike look like? Or a wing Chun single collar tie or a wing Chun rising elbow?


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2016)

KPM said:


> . Kickboxers look like kickboxers when they fight AND when they train. BJJ guys look like BJJ guys when they fight AND when they train. Why should Wing Chun be any different?



Just a comment here about this bit, I do kick boxing and BJJ. Kick boxing can actually look like karate and vice versa. BJJ can look like Judo and wrestling. Take way Gis etc and have them practice in gym clothes and you wouldn't really be sure what they are doing.


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## KPM (Aug 31, 2016)

_If when you spar hard/fight and you look like picture perfect ip man 3 then I'm very happy for you._

---I already stated I wouldn't expect it to look like the forms and drills, just to stick with basic Wing Chun mechanics.  If someone isn't even doing that, can be said to be Wing Chun?   And if someone isn't even going to be using their basic essential core mechanics when they fight....why are they wasting their time training them?  Being up on the toes, swinging from the shoulders, bobbing and weaving, bending forward at the waist....those are all things I was taught NOT to do in every Wing Chun system I have studied.

_And btw I didn't say we resort to "pure" kickboxing (if there is such a thing) mechanics under pressure, I suggested the core striking mechanics like punching/kicking/clinch/knees tend to be used._

---And that is why I initially said that "I agree to an extent."  But be honest now.....when watching the video I posted above, do you see any "core" Wing Chun?  That video labeled as "Wing Chun no MMA" is the kind of thing I'm referring to. 

---Now I see nothing at all wrong with a Wing Chun guy cross-training in MMA and then competing.  But then to say that his skills and success in the ring are based entirely on his Wing Chun training would be a stretch...don't you think?


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## KPM (Aug 31, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Just a comment here about this bit, I do kick boxing and BJJ. Kick boxing can actually look like karate and vice versa. BJJ can look like Judo and wrestling. Take way Gis etc and have them practice in gym clothes and you wouldn't really be sure what they are doing.



If the wrestler stuck to wrestling and the BJJ guy stuck to BJJ, I think it would quickly become apparent who was who!  American kickboxing came from Karate, so no big surprise that they occasionally look alike!  But I've never seen a Muay Thai guy do anything that looked like Karate.  You see a Muay Thai guy training and then you see him fight and its obvious he is fighting exactly the way he trains.


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## KPM (Aug 31, 2016)

Kickboxing with the "side effects" of Wing Chun training....isn't that essentially JKD??!!!  We should all just train JKD and we would have the best of both worlds!


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2016)

KPM said:


> If the wrestler stuck to wrestling and the BJJ guy stuck to BJJ, I think it would quickly become apparent who was who!  American kickboxing came from Karate, so no big surprise that they occasionally look alike!  But I've never seen a Muay Thai guy do anything that looked like Karate.  You see a Muay Thai guy training and then you see him fight and its obvious he is fighting exactly the way he trains.



What's Muay Thai got to do with it? I specifically talked about BJJ and karate, I did not mention Muay Thai at all. 'American' kickboxing? Do you think the rest of the world hasn't developed kickboxing and that it more than looks 'occasionally' alike? I also said put wrestling people and BJJ people in gym clothes watch them grapple without rules and you will find they are more alike than not.


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 31, 2016)

KPM said:


> _If when you spar hard/fight and you look like picture perfect ip man 3 then I'm very happy for you._
> 
> ---I already stated I wouldn't expect it to look like the forms and drills, just to stick with basic Wing Chun mechanics.  If someone isn't even doing that, can be said to be Wing Chun?   And if someone isn't even going to be using their basic essential core mechanics when they fight....why are they wasting their time training them?  Being up on the toes, swinging from the shoulders, bobbing and weaving, bending forward at the waist....those are all things I was taught NOT to do in every Wing Chun system I have studied.
> 
> ...



No I don't. Of course in MMA when the fight goes to the ground that's when wing Chun ends and ground skills come into play. Regarding the clip sure I can see certain elements in the guys performance which are evident as Wc attributes. No I'm not going to exhaustively detail frame by frame what I see, all that will happen is that you will vehemently argue that I'm wrong, rinse/repeat.

Bobbing and weaving/head evasion isn't part of what you do? Fair enough, I consider slipping punches a high level skill and it's certainly part of my armory.

You seem very straight jacketed in your opinion of how wing Chun should be expressed, pity as I thought you were more enlightened.

Ok, so we've given plenty of opinions on what we feel applied Wc might look like. What are you expecting to see?

Straight back, chin out, classical man Sao/wu Sao guard?

Lots of angle stepping and chain punching?

Lots of tan da,lap da,pak da combos?

Stamping kicks coupled with tan da etc?


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> Of course in MMA when the fight goes to the ground that's when wing Chun ends and ground skills come into play.



Yep I do MMA as well ( and karate) so I feel I can give an opinion here lol.

MMA is what it says it is, it's mixed up together, lots of style's techniques and moves all used in the same fight. people keep looking at MMA, telling us that so and so style doesn't work in the cage, well the truth is no one still works in the cage and if you are looking for techniques so you can keep pointing out which style they come then you are going to be disappointed. What MMA people do is take techniques from everything they think can work for them and meld it into their 'fighting style', no one uses one style for stand up and one for ground work, we will quite unashamedly steal all and every technique we can from anywhere, we even tinker with them to make them work better for us.
There are plenty of techniques ine very style that are worth using, a move from WC can lead into a move from karate which can move into BJJ, it's endless and fast.


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## KPM (Aug 31, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> What's Muay Thai got to do with it? I specifically talked about BJJ and karate, I did not mention Muay Thai at all. 'American' kickboxing? Do you think the rest of the world hasn't developed kickboxing and that it more than looks 'occasionally' alike? I also said put wrestling people and BJJ people in gym clothes watch them grapple without rules and you will find they are more alike than not.



Muay Thai is simply another example of an art that fights the way it trains.  My original statement was that a boxer is obviously boxing both when he trains and when he fights.   A BJJ guy is obviously doing BJJ both when he trains and when he fights.  I simply added Muay Thai to that list.  A Muay Thai guy is obviously doing Muay Thai both when he trains and when he fights.   And if you have trouble picking out the various BJJ specific positions, joint-locks and chokes as compared to wrestling pins and controls....well, what more can I say?


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## KPM (Aug 31, 2016)

_No I'm not going to exhaustively detail frame by frame what I see, all that will happen is that you will vehemently argue that I'm wrong, rinse/repeat._

---So you can honestly watch that clip above without knowing beforehand which guy is the Wing Chun guy and still pick him out?  Really?  Is his opponent doing any less of the "certain elements" that you attribute to Wing Chun?


_Bobbing and weaving/head evasion isn't part of what you do? Fair enough, I consider slipping punches a high level skill and it's certainly part of my armory._

---If you've added them that's fine.  But then that isn't "classical" Wing Chun.  Its Wing Chun going the way of MMA.  Which is Ok too!


_You seem very straight jacketed in your opinion of how wing Chun should be expressed, pity as I thought you were more enlightened._

---No, I see nothing wrong with Wing Chun evolving and changing.  But I also think one should be up-front and honest about it.


_Ok, so we've given plenty of opinions on what we feel applied Wc might look like. What are you expecting to see?_

---Its not what I'm expecting to see, its what I'm expecting NOT to see!  Which I already listed!

---My viewpoint:   Sparring should not be seen as a thing unto itself.  It should be seen as a platform for training, just like Chi Sau is a platform for training.  Everyone realizes that good technique goes to sh!t under pressure.  Sparring is the opportunity to put a student under pressure and see what goes to sh!t.  Then he knows what he needs to go back and work on.  If you saw someone bobbing and weaving, breaking center, giving up their structure, etc in Chi Sau....wouldn't you point these things out as something to work on?  Something that needs improvement?  Why is it any different when it comes to sparring?  Why does everyone get all offended if someone points out how they are losing their Wing Chun structure and technique when sparring?   Are you training Wing Chun?  Or are you training to be a good sparer? Why do we have such a high standard for Wing Chun in our forms and drills and such a low standard for Wing Chun when it comes to sparring?  Any good martial art should strive to  train the way it fights and fight the way it trains.  Sparring is a great environment to bring all those hours of training to the fight.  But if you start being content with resorting to sloppy kickboxing, then you are wasting all those hours of training.   Now, one might very well find adjustments and modifications to their Wing Chun that are more successful in sparring.  That's great and how things progress and evolve!  But if you aren't then going back and putting those modifications into your  training, again you are wasting time and not training efficiently.

---So again, are you training Wing Chun?  Or are you training to be good at sparring?  (general question for everyone)


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## KPM (Aug 31, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Yep I do MMA as well ( and karate) so I feel I can give an opinion here lol.
> 
> MMA is what it says it is, it's mixed up together, lots of style's techniques and moves all used in the same fight. people keep looking at MMA, telling us that so and so style doesn't work in the cage, well the truth is no one still works in the cage and if you are looking for techniques so you can keep pointing out which style they come then you are going to be disappointed. What MMA people do is take techniques from everything they think can work for them and meld it into their 'fighting style', no one uses one style for stand up and one for ground work, we will quite unashamedly steal all and every technique we can from anywhere, we even tinker with them to make them work better for us.
> There are plenty of techniques ine very style that are worth using, a move from WC can lead into a move from karate which can move into BJJ, it's endless and fast.



Yes!  I have no problem with that!  So tell me Tez....when you watch that video I posted, can you pick out the Wing Chun guy without knowing beforehand which guy he is?   When you see a guy that has obviously been training MMA exactly as you describe above, but then claims its all Wing Chun....you don't see a problem there?


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2016)

KPM said:


> Yes!  I have no problem with that!  So tell me Tez....when you watch that video I posted, can you pick out the Wing Chun guy without knowing beforehand which guy he is?   When you see a guy that has obviously been training MMA exactly as you describe above, but then claims its all Wing Chun....you don't see a problem there?



To be honest I'm not going to comment on the WC because I will only comment on something I know about ie MMA, Karate and BJJ. For me to express any opinion on WC would be silly. I think you are wrong about BJJ and I would thank you not to condescend  about my knowledge of BJJ and wrestling, I would remind you there is only so many ways a body can move or be moved. I would also suggest your knowledge of other styles isn't as wide as you would like to think it is. Oh and in the right hands good technique works very well under pressure.


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## KPM (Aug 31, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> To be honest I'm not going to comment on the WC because I will only comment on something I know about ie MMA, Karate and BJJ. For me to express any opinion on WC would be silly. I think you are wrong about BJJ and I would thank you not to condescend  about my knowledge of BJJ and wrestling, I would remind you there is only so many ways a body can move or be moved. I would also suggest your knowledge of other styles isn't as wide as you would like to think it is. Oh and in the right hands good technique works very well under pressure.



I am not trying to condescend to anyone.  I am only trying to appeal to common sense.  The typical wrestler is not going to use the guard position, he isn't going to be doing arm-locks and chokes.  Those kind of things should clearly denote the BJJ guy, shouldn't they?  Unless the wrestler has been doing some cross-training?????

And you don't have to be any kind of expert to watch that video and say whether you see any Wing Chun or not.  You are allowed an opinion!     And again,  as a MMA stylist yourself....watching someone clearly doing pretty typical MMA and labeling it as "Wing Chun no MMA"....that doesn't bother you?


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2016)

KPM said:


> The typical wrestler is not going to use the guard position, he isn't going to be doing arm-locks and chokes.



I'm not sure what to you is a typical wrestler, I suspect you mean the wrestling they do in American schools and colleges whereas I know of many more ( at least nine) including one which very much uses arm locks and another that uses chokes.




KPM said:


> that doesn't bother you?



Not in the least. The question is ... does it work...the proof is in the pudding. If it works he can call it what he likes, if it doesn't he's an idiot.


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## Jake104 (Aug 31, 2016)

kPM
Not all bjj or jjj ground fighting uses the guard like the Gracie's.. I think bjj has really transcended from just pulling guard.. It's not the ideal position on the ground and now a days when people try and pull guard from standing it doesn't always work so well. I'm not a 'bjj guy' so I'm no expert on the subject. I'am just going off what our guys do and what I've been shown.. Ours guys complete in both bjj and just recently a couple Judo tournaments. Our guys actually did real well in a Judo tournament. I believe Sensei Mark Connally  choked out a guy and won at the Judo tournament two weeks ago.. He teaches Yudansha jujitsu at DTE.. So not sure what your point is grappling and striking arts can look similar in competition.


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## KPM (Aug 31, 2016)

_I'm not sure what to you is a typical wrestler, I suspect you mean the wrestling they do in American schools and colleges whereas I know of many more ( at least nine) including one which very much uses arm locks and another that uses chokes.._

---The "typical wrestler" is one that has gone into MMA from collegiate sport competition, where they don't use things like the guard, arm-locks and chokes.  Now if you are talking about catch-wrestling...that's a different animal. But most wrestling guys I've heard of going into MMA are not doing it from that kind of background. 


_Not in the least. The question is ... does it work...the proof is in the pudding. If it works he can call it what he likes, if it doesn't he's an idiot._

---Ok, that's fine.  But personally, I prefer that people are honest and up-front about what they are doing.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 31, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> BJJ can look like Judo and wrestling. Take way Gis etc and have them practice in gym clothes and you wouldn't really be sure what they are doing.





KPM said:


> If the wrestler stuck to wrestling and the BJJ guy stuck to BJJ, I think it would quickly become apparent who was who!





KPM said:


> The typical wrestler is not going to use the guard position, he isn't going to be doing arm-locks and chokes. Those kind of things should clearly denote the BJJ guy, shouldn't they?



Many BJJ practitioners (myself included) don't view BJJ and wrestling as fundamentally different. From my perspective BJJ, Judo, Sombo, and Wrestling (in its various forms) are all just aspects of the same art. They may be optimized for different competitive rule sets and they carry some different cultural baggage, but take away the rules and they all blend together in a real fight.


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2016)

KPM said:


> The "typical wrestler" is one that has gone into MMA from collegiate sport competition, where they don't use things like the guard, arm-locks and chokes. Now if you are talking about catch-wrestling...that's a different animal. But most wrestling guys I've heard of going into MMA are not doing it from that kind of background.



No, that's a cultural thing, Only the USA has the collegiate wrestling system, the rest of the world has various types of wrestling, it's very big thing in eastern Europe and northern Asian countries like Mongolia so the wrestlers you know may come from that system but the rest of them don't. No MMA fighter I know personally or from the UK has come from that system, they've mostly come from judo, catch and BJJ. I even know one who did Cornish wrestling, others who are French come from their systems.



KPM said:


> ---Ok, that's fine. But personally, I prefer that people are honest and up-front about what they are doing.



and what if they are being honest? I don't assume that because they may be mistaken or in error they are not being honest.



Tony Dismukes said:


> They may be optimized for different competitive rule sets



that's why I said put them in gym clothes and not use rules.


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## Jake104 (Aug 31, 2016)

Since this is my thread I'm going vent and ramble on a bit..

I started WC in 1993. I came into WC with plenty of street fighting experience. I've been jumped a few times and lots of fights blah blah blah.. I grew up in Little Saigon Westminster Ca. and met my Vietnamese wife there back in 1990. So yeah, I got in a few fights..

If back then there was a YouTube or the internet and I watched all these WC videos and seen all this arguing on forums, I wouldn't of trained in Wing Chun. I would of thought of it as a joke..

My first Sifu told me the first day "fighting is fighting".. ( I was thinking of taking JKD at Danny Inosatos fighting academy in Fountian Valley Ca at that time).. He also said "WC same as other arts, is only a vehicle to help get you to the same place"." Becoming a good fighter"...So that's what really kept me at his WC class and into WC all these years.

 It wasn't until the Internet era I seen how many different lineages and how everybody argues about who has the real deal... It really blows my mind. Because for me the proof has always had to be in the pudding. Otherwise I see no point?

Now fast forward, I have hooked up with a group that is even better. Same philosophy but I actually get to train with other styles within our same group. That alone has done wonders for my WC and has opened my eyes.. But that's not enough. My teacher really is the one responsible, because like I said, he sharpens my blade. He teaches me how to really make my Wing Chun work. Which in reality is his WC that he's instilling in me.. My Wing Chun is really DTE WC now. Guess what? It works and I really don't care how anyone labels it.


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2016)

Jake104 said:


> It works and I really don't care how anyone labels it.



Exactly!


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2016)

KPM said:


> _No I'm not going to exhaustively detail frame by frame what I see, all that will happen is that you will vehemently argue that I'm wrong, rinse/repeat._
> 
> ---So you can honestly watch that clip above without knowing beforehand which guy is the Wing Chun guy and still pick him out?  Really?  Is his opponent doing any less of the "certain elements" that you attribute to Wing Chun?
> 
> ...



You can train in multiple disciplines. And spar in multiple disciplines if you want to. The trick is to know why you are sparring in a certain manner.


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## SaulGoodman (Aug 31, 2016)

Training in multiple disciplines will give you a richer understanding of your base art..,


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## Jake104 (Sep 8, 2016)

geezer said:


> For those who don't know about him ...Martin isn't really a Wing Chun guy. *What does that make me then Steve?? Am I not a Wing Chun man, since I'm not learning from "a WC man"?? There is 30 years of Coach Martin's training that maybe 20 years you may have not been there to witness, right? You did take a break for a good amount of time while he continued his training.. He is teaching me Wing Chun, we do forms and then break down the movements. Then we move into application..Just like in my previous traditional training.. but like in the first part of what you say next ----->*His outlook is much broader than WC, but WC concepts definitely figure into the picture. Some of us see DTE as "What JKD _should_ be!" *So why can't it be Wing Chun?? He's teaching me at a more advanced level.. That doesn't mean if a new student with zero WC experience came to learn, he wouldn't teach them the basic core concepts, forms, and basic drills.. It's just means we can go beyond that. Going beyond doesn't have to imply that we neglect the basic principles and concepts of what makes WC..WC.. The video or what he shows me or even what he has shown you in the past, is the end goal.. It's what we can expect and look forward to from an art like Wing Chun.. But we don't start there, we start where everyone else starts. Don't get my comments like when I say "We at DTE don't care what someone labels our art" twisted.. What We mean is, it is Wing Chun and if people don't see that it's their loss...To bad for them*
> 
> or ... I think of Martin as our answer to Alan Orr, except that Martin doesn't care if you see the WC in his stuff or not. The point is that is works! I'm just sorry that I live on the wrong side of the valley and don't get to train with you guys anymore. Gonna have to fix that.
> 
> Now for the negative side of my commentary. Jake, get some new pants!


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## KPM (Sep 9, 2016)

^^^  I'll probably catch hell again, but oh well!   IMHO....if you are not using the core mechanics of Wing Chun...if you aren't moving like Wing Chun teaches to move in its forms and drills.... if your powerbase is not  what Wing Chun is teaching in its forms and drills...then it is no longer Wing Chun.  You can graft Wing Chun principles onto many different arts.  That doesn't automatically make them Wing Chun.  For this reason, JKD is its "own thing"....its "own art"....and not just a modified version of Wing Chun.  Now Martin may very well start out with Wing Chun as a base, just as many of the JKD guys do....and there is nothing wrong with that!  But if, in the end, you are using a different core mechanics in the way you are moving and applying things, then you have departed from your Wing Chun base and are now doing something else.  And there is nothing wrong with that!  It is something that may draw on the Wing Chun training, but I wouldn't call it "Wing Chun."   "DTE Wing Chun"....as a qualifier that you aren't doing "classical" Wing Chun maybe?   Would Martin tell someone he is doing "Wing Chun"?  Or would he say he is doing DTE?


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## Jake104 (Sep 9, 2016)

Don't worry I'm not gonna give you too much crap... In Wing Chun class we Do Wing Chun! Plain and  simple period!!.Thats it! I never did a Ip man lineage so my base or foundation in WC is not going to look like those other lineages..I have classical training (mainland). And... I still maintain my WC core principles.. And... body mechanics from the drills and forms, in sparring and fighting... I get what you're saying.. it gets lost.. But personally I maintain it and always have.. From both my original training and DTE.. So??

The training in WC I get now is still just an advanced version of the same thing.. In Combatives or Eskrima I'll agree maybe with you..that yes I modify those....Nah..But then again maybe I won't . The training I get now jives perfect with my 'traditional' WC..


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## Jake104 (Sep 9, 2016)

He calls it DTE Combat Wing Chun.. that doesn't mean the core principles, theory, drills, forms and tradition gets lost. Martin feels it's important to know where what we do comes from.. IMO Hawkins Cheung knows more about JKD and what it was supposed to be.. then you or Steve


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## geezer (Sep 9, 2016)

Jake104 said:


> He calls it DTE Combat Wing Chun.. that doesn't mean the core principles, theory, drills, forms and tradition gets lost. Martin feels it's important to know where what we do comes from.. IMO Hawkins Cheung knows more about JKD and what it was supposed to be.. then you or Steve



Heck, I dunno. DTE is way broader than any WC I saw. And some of the guys that train it don't even like WC. Coach Jeff, for example, isn't a big fan of classical WC. Both Martin and Jeff have made the comment that DTE is sort of like what JKD should be. Each of us makes something different out of it. As to what to call it... Who cares!

And regarding JKD, I don't know squat. Never trained it. But still it's nice to be mentioned in the same sentence as Hawkins Cheung ...even if only to say that I am ignorant by comparison. True that!

Anyway, nice to see you posting again Jake. If you could get some more videos, that would be great!


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## Jake104 (Sep 9, 2016)

geezer said:


> Heck, I dunno. DTE is way broader than any WC I saw. And some of the guys that train it don't even like WC. Coach Jeff, for example, isn't a big fan of classical WC. Both Martin and Jeff have made the comment that DTE is sort of like what JKD should be. Each of us makes something different out of it. As to what to call it... Who cares!
> 
> And regarding JKD, I don't know squat. Never trained it. But still it's nice to be mentioned in the same sentence as Hawkins Cheung ...even if only to say that I am ignorant by comparison. True that!
> 
> Anyway, nice to see you posting again Jake. If you could get some more videos, that would be great!


Some of those you speak of just don't like crappy Wing Chun.. You haven't been to a class in a while but both Martin and Jeff actually refer to chi sao and Wing Chun quite often now in their teaching of any DTE art..

DTE IS broader then just WC.. but now Wing Chun is What Martin wants too share and teach, so hopefully you can expect more video's..

I'm not trying to beat you up in here Steve.. I'm just clarifying things and spreading DTE Combat Wing Chun as I learn it directly from the source..busting Your balls is just a bonus


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