# The Civil and Military Practice of Taijiquan



## Xue Sheng (Apr 26, 2008)

There has been much discussion about Taijiquan for health that does not include the martial aspect. I came across this form Tung Ying Chieh on that topic. 



> *The Civil and Military Practice of Taijiquan*
> 
> The civil aspect of Taijiquan is the Body (the Form). The military aspect is the Application. The civil aspect of Taijiquan may be described as a kind of calisthenics. It has the effect of promoting the jing, chi, and shen. The military aspect is based on the civil method which uses both the mind and the body. However, there are varieties in the degree of attainment. For the civil purpose it is always soft. for the military purpose it is often hard because it is used for combat. If one learns the civil aspect and ignores the military aspect, it is the body with no function. If the military aspect is not based on the civil aspect, it is a tree with no root.
> 
> ...


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## Sukerkin (Apr 26, 2008)

An insight that is utterly new to me.  My thanks for that *Xue*.

As a related personal advert, I'm still looking for someone in the Staffordshire region who can teach me this art (or more properly, these arts).  The 'civil' alone would be okay but really I'm looking for what our American cousins would call the 'real deal' i.e. not just the form but the function also.


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## Myrmidon (Apr 26, 2008)

*A coin has two sides... a coin with only one side and nothing on the other side is valueless (with the possible exception of a collector of odd coins).

If it is not good for you to defend yourself with... then it is not good for your health either...*


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## DaPoets (Apr 26, 2008)

I kind of like the idea of not getting into a fight and yet living a healthy full life past 101 years old.


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## BooBoo (Apr 27, 2008)

When he says that civil is the form, does that mean the forms as in the forms we perform during practice (i.e. 56 step Chen, etc...)?

If that's so, it would suggest that Martial Arts without forms as such are somehow lacking in roots or fundamentals, or am I mistaken?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 27, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> An insight that is utterly new to me. My thanks for that Xue.
> 
> As a related personal advert, I'm still looking for someone in the Staffordshire region who can teach me this art (or more properly, these arts). The 'civil' alone would be okay but really I'm looking for what our American cousins would call the 'real deal' i.e. not just the form but the function also.


 
There are possibly a couple of good Chen schools in England, but I am not sure where. One associated with Chen Zhenglei, he goes there to teach. Another that may have been a student of Chen Zhenglei or with Chen Zhenglei in Chen Village and another that might be associated with Chen Xiaowang. I will check and see what I can find. 

EastWinds is also there and his school was Yang Style



DaPoets said:


> I kind of like the idea of not getting into a fight and yet living a healthy full life past 101 years old.


 
Ahh but you see, he never said get into a fight he said train the martial arts side meaning applications and free style.



BooBoo said:


> When he says that civil is the form, does that mean the forms as in the forms we perform during practice (i.e. 56 step Chen, etc...)?
> 
> If that's so, it would suggest that Martial Arts without forms as such are somehow lacking in roots or fundamentals, or am I mistaken?


 
Basically yes

Tung Ying Chieh is talking about Yang style, he was a long time student of Yang Chengfu.

He is taking about (for example) doing the long form 3 times a day for 6 years to learn it to understand it to make it yours. 

And in order to do that you NEED the martial side. This does not mean go get in a fight it means train it. My sifu is highly skilled and very good at martial arts and I do not know if he ever got in a fight but he was a student of Tung Ying Chieh and well trained. He is in his 70s considerably shorter than I and can throw me around like a ragdoll with what appears to be little or no effort on his part


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Apr 27, 2008)

It is similar to Kata in Japanese arts or Shadow boxing in Boxing.
 What the principle does in training in application is teach correct mechanics, and using Yi to guide Qi. Without Yi the forms will not have the correct method in martial or in health. In martial it will not have correct structure, nor strength, in health it will not lead Qi to the limbs.


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## ggg214 (Apr 27, 2008)

thanks for Xue Sheng. it's such a good topic!
in my experience, taiji is always a fighting martial art, different from old persons playing with music in the public parks. it's a tough training method.
how to achieve its goal of health? i think at first, through tough training, it rebuilds every part of body. then relax. everything is going the right way and meanwhile health is gained.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 29, 2008)

I have a question based on the follwing from Tung Ying Chieh



> 5. Withstanding, Shrinking, Losing, and Resisting.
> 
> Withstanding is overuse of your own strength to counteract the strength of the opponent. Shrinking is insuffident use of your warding strength. Losing is lost contact with the opponent,allow- ing escape. Resisting is to oppose the opponent with force.
> 
> ...


 
My question
These leads me to ask how can you accomplish any of this without training the martial side?

The complete article


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## East Winds (Apr 29, 2008)

Xue Sheng,

The simple answer is of course, you can't.

Very best wishes


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## ggg214 (Apr 29, 2008)

taiji is a kung fu that requires knowing yourself as well as your opponent.
a master has said that when you do forms or other taiji basic training, you are building a complete circle yourself, when you do push hands, you are building a complete circle among your body and your opponent. then your circle spreads bigger and bigger.at last, the circle is built among oneself, sky and earth(&#19977;&#25165;&#65292;san cai).
so without martial part training of taiji, how to kwon others, how to reach the ultimate goal as above?


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