# Spreading the art?



## Cruentus

> Tgace: I guess I started this thread hi-jack so I apologize...I suppose the "spreading the art" topic should be on its own thread.



Well here is that new thread. Spreading the art...thoughts?

Have fun!

 :asian:


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## Tgace

You are an evil man... and I was called a troublemaker.


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## Cruentus

Tgace said:
			
		

> You are an evil man... and I was called a troublemaker.



:rofl:

The funny thing is, I wasn't even trying to be a trouble maker! Can't help it, I guess...  

I actually thought this would make a good discussion. I think that we all need to think about the idea of "spreading the art." Why do it? How do we do it? What problems can occur with doing it? What problems occur with NOT doing it?

I think it is all worth reflection...

 :asian: 
PAUL


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## ARNIS PRINCESS

Something that needs to be done or arts will become extinct.


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## loki09789

ARNIS PRINCESS said:
			
		

> Something that needs to be done or arts will become extinct.


Agreed. That, as far as I am concerned, is to train well, teach well, lead by example. As has been stated on the origins of this spin off (you have trickster rabbit ears under a hat don't you Paul ), the problem that I see with focusing on 'spreading the art' as a primary goal is that you end up with watered down, over simplified, and sold off rank. THe business axium that a good product practically sells itself seems to be fairly sound. 

The problem is that the service product of Martial arts is more than selling a system, it is selling a presentor of that product as well. There is an element of the 'cult of personallity' in how a school/system/art is sold. So are we salesmen first and martial artists second? Are we evangelists or are we instructors? Promotion, sales, public relations are all necessary but are they the largest part of your 'doing business time'? We are not trained in 'advertising/marketing arts', but martial artists. Do that well, understand the market and do your best to present an honest, quality product (welcome/safe training environment and have a clear mission/goal/philosophy) and the people who fit the 'corporate culture' that you establish will be attracted by advertising, word of mouth and personal investigation.

I fear that 'spreading the art' as a primary goal has been too often used as a not so thinly veiled market goal of creating lots of well paying students instead of well instructed students.

RP was used as an example so I hope this isn't seen as grave dancing, but his desire to create links with already ranked Black Belts (with schools that could provide students to whom he wanted to spread his art) led to pre-qualified awardings of rank, a revolving door of 'good people' who were sick and tired of being told that at first or second black they were to instruct these other system ranked folks to equal or higher rank and a lack of organizational leadership decisions at critical moments.

RP was a gifted martial artists, experienced fighter, good teacher and incredibly charismatic personallity, but his seminar approach - though a good approach to 'spread the art' has also left it with a red headed step child image amongst other martial arts. It has the reputation of the "add on art" because RP didn't want to be unwelcome because BB/Instructors thought he might be fishing for students.

I don't say this with a blind eye for the incredible work he accomplished in the PI and outside of it, but 'spreading the art' as a primary motivation has taken its toll on the understanding and reputation of the art as well. It is far more than most understand.

That isn't even going into the political BS that errupted because of the goal.

As far as the 'unforseen' end of RP's life, we all die. RP's process was progressive and left enough time for him to outline his MA legacy. Those who were satisfied fight for its legitimacy. Those who didn't like the way he set it up went out on their own....either way the art lives on, but so does the political crap.


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## Cruentus

Sorry, not a lot of time to post, so bare with me.

The cult-of-personality thing in Martial Arts is a huge issue overall, but it is easily combated by the instructors motives. If the motives are nobile and not to create a cult of personality, then it'll be fine.

For the rest, though, it seems that we have a dilemma. You go out and spread the art the way that RP did, and you risk a political mess that he had to face, and that we now face.

If you stay indoors and only teach in small groups or privates, then you really do rick your art dying off.

So we know the strengths and limitations of each. What is the solution to the dilemma? 

 :idunno:  :asian:


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## loki09789

Tulisan said:
			
		

> For the rest, though, it seems that we have a dilemma. You go out and spread the art the way that RP did, and you risk a political mess that he had to face, and that we now face.
> 
> If you stay indoors and only teach in small groups or privates, then you really do rick your art dying off.
> 
> So we know the strengths and limitations of each. What is the solution to the dilemma?
> 
> :idunno: :asian:


Well, I don't see a problem with the structure that RP used (seminars, camps...small group/privates as possible) to instruct and the establish a base of qualified instructors to begin teaching MA in the states or where ever he was working.  It becomes a problem when that beginning phase of growth building isn't changed into something else with a solid plan and structure.  

Consider Al Tracy who was nicknamed the "Johnny Appleseed" of American Kenpo.  I know there is artistic strife there, but he had/has a better business building model to use than RP established.  Once you have created a core of students and possible instructors, you combine groups with one on one to get people through the basics in a more attentive, personal private environment.  After that, you transition into whole class formats and can continue with privates along the way, but you get the best of both worlds.  His business model doesn't work for everyone, but he doesn't say you have to use it exactly.  It is a guideline that you can modify.  RP never really moved out of the building and growth phase of making a business.  Up until his last instructional days, he was using the same business format that he used from the beginning.

His business plan was similar.  Establish a core of qualified instructors who know the system AND the business/instructional plan and let them grow the seed he planted in that area with a support network, but they do the local work.  I know there were organizations, but as far as I know, none of the business support and training that these people needed was provided by those organizations.  This was partly because RP assumed that the BB's with schools already knew how to do that.  BUT they didn't know how to do it for MA thus MA got marketed locally as either Filipino "Karate" or as a supplemental art.

RP had part of that plan, but not all.  His program turned into a cult of personallity when people didn't want to find instructors but wanted to follow RP instead.  Think about how hard it is/was to find qualified MA instructors who weren't using it as a 'supplemental art' and it looked like the base art w/stick more than it did actual FMA.

No one has said to hide your light under a bushel, but if it 'has to happen within your lifetime' then it isn't so much about the art as it is about earning a living and ego - I don't say that with a critical tone because nothing is better than earning a living doing what you love.  The problem is when the motivation and actions are saying one thing but the words are saying another.  Is it really about the art or the promotor?  There are many a decent art that has evolved slowly and steadily because the product was good and people developed/spread it through instruction instead of promotion.  There are many a sound system that has evolved and changed with the times.

Arts die because people avoid bad instructors, poor character and negative groups.  If there is no structure, business plan or instructional training in a program/system then it runs the risk of being a dinosaur.

The validity of any current art is more about 'feel' than practicallity.  How many times have we said that there are millions of reasons that people start practicing.  After a while people stay with an art/group because if 'feels' right more than it is practical...


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## arnisandyz

As loki said...one of the biggest downsides of "spreading the art and encouraging "teaching right away" is the quality of instruction. While making Arnis acessable to the general public through its Instructor's seminar program, there are people teaching the art before even understanding it.  While I agree that it helps you learn to teach, some of these Instructors (many of which come from McDojos are promoting themselves as "Arnis Experts" and sellng it to there unknowing students. I have been involved in FMA long enough to be able to tell 'who has it and who doesn't" but what about the person who doesn't have alot of knowledge of Arnis?  While it does get the word of Arnis out there, its not always the right one.


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## OULobo

Many systems seek to spread the art just for the pride of seeing the art be practiced across the globe, without any financial overtures. 

It begs the question of whether an art should be sold at all? Many instructors choose to teach for free or on a system of barter or favors. This makes for small schools and no need for a marketing budget. Other systems have their governing organizations registered as non-profit. 

On the cult of personality subject, I think that the worst thing is when someone becomes a "cult of personality" without their own knowledge or blessing. Halie Salasie was the subject of the entire rastafarian religion and never knew who they were, despite having met some of the religions followers. Dan Inosanto often reaches the cultish level, but the guy constantly preaches against it.


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## StraightRazor

Im new here. This is my first post as a matter of fact. But i have been lurking as a guest for a while. And I jump into a political thread (typical )

I notice that there seems to be more behind this thread than I can see on the surface. It started on the originating thread and seems to be brewing here too. A sort of simmering tension. Between players here. You guys know each other or somthin?


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## loki09789

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Im new here. This is my first post as a matter of fact. But i have been lurking as a guest for a while. And I jump into a political thread (typical )
> 
> I notice that there seems to be more behind this thread than I can see on the surface. It started on the originating thread and seems to be brewing here too. A sort of simmering tension. Between players here. You guys know each other or somthin?


 
Everyone here knows everyone else from past posts at the very least.  Tension?  Just conversation as far as I am concerned.

I notice on your Profile you list FMA as your art as well as being from the Bflo area.  Who do you study with?  It is a small fraternity of FMA only folks in this area.


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## loki09789

Here is another example of, at least in the market side of things, 'spreading the art' as a primary goal can lead to crash and burn. With the Bflo weather we don't get many of the 'free tai chi in the park' kind of groups - though it would be nice.

There is locally a school with a relatively long Karate legacy. For a very long time, instruction was out of a public building with low overhead costs and lots of community support and a good reputation. Well, when the progam went to a straight commercial studio, all the 'spreading the art talk' changed from being a good representative your art and yourself (which got A LOT of students BTW to come and it was a good group of people) to being a good hook who doesn't show his friends any of this stuff, but brings them to the instructor so he can make them paying customers....

once that new tone was established a lot of the old timers left, the student based dwindled and he had to move the program to a smaller commercial location because of the lower student attendance. 

I think there is a good way and a bad way to 'spread the art'. Good students, good instruction and good art will get the job done in the tortoise fashion of slow and steady more effectively than the other options.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Teaching to spread the art.

I feel as soon as you teach someone you begin to spread an art. Your intent may have been to teach them how to defend themselves, but you have now brought someone new into the system. I think that spreading the art should be part of what we do in the arts, but not the only focus.
 :asian:


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## Flatlander

That dovetails nicely with another thread somewhere where I made a point regarding promotion of students.  My whole point there was that in order for the art to "spread" with any amount of integrity, Of utmost importance is the honest promotion of students to instuctor status.  The feeling I get is that this isn't much of a problem in Modern Arnis, but in all honesty, I can't claim to know many of the players, so I'm speculating.

This also dovetails nicely with the thread on teaching the best or anybody willing to learn.  My personal feeling is that nobody should get to teach, unless they are a real jewel in your group.  So extra care need be taken with "the best", in the context of the future "spreading of the art".


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## StraightRazor

Mr. Martin

To be straight up with you, my only training in FMA is from a college buddy of mine who taught me when I was in school @NYU. I have "rank" in TKD and Kenpo. Havent gotten back into anything since Ive come back. Been lurking here since I see a lot of people here list WNY as their location. Lots of "bad blood" I see from searching the posting history of some of you guys, didnt know it was like that in FMA.


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## loki09789

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Mr. Martin
> 
> To be straight up with you, my only training in FMA is from a college buddy of mine who taught me when I was in school @NYU. I have "rank" in TKD and Kenpo. Havent gotten back into anything since Ive come back. Been lurking here since I see a lot of people here list WNY as their location. Lots of "bad blood" I see from searching the posting history of some of you guys, didnt know it was like that in FMA.


Okay, then who was your NYU instructor/system if you need/want a training group there are many here who would welcome a good training partner. Knowing your previous training might help find the best fit/group.

It's too bad that you didn't list the TKD/Kenpo Rank under that section of the profile.  Lot's of those schools around here too.  What was your NYU major?


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## StraightRazor

My "instructor" was really just a buddy (Joe Galioto) with some Mod Arnis training,  i really liked the one size fits all approach so I figured Id see what was available when I got back home and kinda stumbled on this site. Know the basic block -n- counters, and the striking patterns.


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## Michael Billings

StraightRazor - on behalf of the MT Admin/Mod team ... *WELCOME!*



> The problem is that the service product of Martial arts is more than selling a system, it is selling a presentor of that product as well. There is an element of the 'cult of personallity' in how a school/system/art is sold. So are we salesmen first and martial artists second? Are we evangelists or are we instructors? Promotion, sales, public relations are all necessary but are they the largest part of your 'doing business time'? We are not trained in 'advertising/marketing arts', but martial artists. Do that well, understand the market and do your best to present an honest, quality product (welcome/safe training environment and have a clear mission/goal/philosophy) and the people who fit the 'corporate culture' that you establish will be attracted by advertising, word of mouth and personal investigation.
> 
> I fear that 'spreading the art' as a primary goal has been too often used as a not so thinly veiled market goal of creating lots of well paying students instead of well instructed students.


  This is so true in a lot of "commercial schools."  What I find really disturbing is that now you have several generations of instructors, who were products of their own instructors and do not even know what they are missing.

 -Michael


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## arnisandyz

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Mr. Martin
> Lots of "bad blood" I see from searching the posting history of some of you guys, didnt know it was like that in FMA.



Actually its been pretty quite lately. Personally, I really respect people on this board and thier opinions even if i don't agree with all of them. Alot of good talk here, don't let the "bad blood" keep you away.  Most people have moved on or are no longer here. There might still be some tension, but mostly its water under the bridge.


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## Cruentus

Here's that long, Paul Janulis post that ya'll been lookin for!   

* Chapter I: A strong acquisition plan *

I think the key to balancing the "spreading of the art" with "quality control," and getting your art out there, while curbing as best you can all the political problems that go with the territory is having a good acquisition plan. Now, when I say acquisition, I mean purely "growth" in quality students, not financial growth, or "stealing" of others students, or anything else (although some of that may go with the territory). I don't say "business plan" because if your thinking of martial arts as only a business for yourself, then you'll fail. Martial Arts can be a business, but for you to succeed in achieving other goals that are not monetary by nature, you need to think of it as more then that.

This plan involves mapping out where you want to be over the next year. Over the next 5. Over the next 10. Then, constantly reviewing these goals, and making sure that your art is moving in a forward direction. 

*Chapter II: Positive mental attitude and motivation. *

This is actually the most important thing. Without a positive mental attitude and motivation, you'll be destined to failure. If your goal is unselfish, unegotistical, altruistic, and constructive, then you will be able to succeed. People will want to see what you have to offer. People will like you. People will be happy to learn your art. You'll attract enough positive people who will be there for you to help you take your art to the next level(s), and you'll be a success.

If your motivation is based off negativity, selfishness, and ego, then your actions will show. The actions of your members, and the kinds of people you attract will show. Your behavior will be destructive rather then constructive, and you won't be successful. You may develop a core group of negative A-holes, but the rest of the real world will want nothing to do with you.

Now, there are a lot of ways that negative and positive behavior and attitudes can manifest themselves; and this can be deceptive. It goes well beyond "this instructor smiles alot, and this other one used a curse-word, so the smiling instructor must be the positive guy!" Wrong. Some people can smile to your face, yet be stabbing you in the back or stringing you along to fit their agenda. Actions speak louder then words, appearances, and personas. One thing that tends to follow "negative" behavior is the "martial-cult" like mentality. The cult-of-personality or cult-of-art behavior is recognizable by lack of ownership for students. Too many people propigate the martial myth that "we all must follow master so-and-so until he dies, but on his death bed in a dramatic and magical chain of events, master-so-and-so will crown the next emporer of the art, a new person to be subserviant too." This is pure mytholigy; it is rare that the torch is dramatically passed from one master to one other master in charge. Yet, while master-so-and-so is worshipped, black-belt clubs and in-crowds develop, and everyone else fights to get crumbs from the cookies that the master and the elite black-belt club members feed back and forth to each other. There is no ownership in a martial-cult; only a few will be allowed to be successful and happy in an environment like this one, because only so few can be a part of the elite masters club. And...the few that are in the club are there on false pretenses of what can the master use you for, or on how well were you able to politic your way to the top of the nekid pyramid. Skill and teaching ability are lower prorities for these groups. 

There are a lot of warning signs to martial-cults and negative behavior that would be the topic for another thread. The thing is, it is my belief that negative behavior and "martial-cults" are a dying breed. We are far more sophisticated now then ever before. Most of us have debunked the martial myths of the 70's and 80's that propigated cultish behaviors. The are a small amount of people out there who are doing positive work in the martial arts, propigating ownership and value, yet this small group is on the rise. People will see the difference between the positive and the negative, and the negative will be on the decline. Cults will always exist, but they don't have to exist on the large scale that they do in martial arts today.

I purposely was vague in my description of "martial-cult behavior" because I don't want to finger point to any art, Modern Arnis organization or independent in existance today. I don't need too. Time will either expose you or promote you. If your out there doing positive things, then you'll grow and be successful. That's the bottom line. And everyone has the chance to do that; there is no Modern Arnis school on every corner - in other words, there is enough Modern Arnis to go around. I think the same can be said for all FMA's.

* Chapter III: Good quality product *

If you are good, and your product is good, you will do nothing but grow. The better you are, and the better your art (product) is, the more people will value your product, and the higher demand you'll be. Sure, this doesn't happend overnight, as your product needs the time to get exposure. However, look at Remy Presas. It took time, but he was able to spread his art purely though ambition and a good quality product. He was very disorganized and all over the place; a marketing genius, but not a great business man, IMHO. Yet, his "business" and art thrived because his product was so good.

If you have a year of training and go out to promote your art, your product won't be as strong. Experience and skill and mentality and presentation and value will make your product that you have to offer worth while.

This ties in with the money aspect of the arts. People should have the right to make money, and in fact SHOULD be allowed to make a decent living through martial arts. The question is, how is this being done? If it is done through cult-like behavior, lying, and cheating (all things prevelent in the martial-bussiness world), then this is not good for the arts. If your making money because your product is in high demand, because it is a good quality product, then this is good for your livelyhood, and for the art itself.

* Chapter IV: Tenacity *

Making your art successful is not a sprint, it's a marathon (kind of like reading my long posts...  ). Again, it is worth being said again that time will expose or promote you. The man with the positive mental attitude, great acquisition plan, and quality product could be the man with the negative attitudes and piss-poor quality product next year. The vise-versa is true. You could start off with no plan, a Sh**ty product and attitude, and turn it around to be positive. Unlike what martial myths would like you to believe, no one person is the "heir" to a good quality martial art, and no one is "destined" to put out a quality product. You have to keep a tight acquisition plan, a positive mental attitude and action, and you have to maintain and continually improve your product over the long haul. There will be times when you'll faulter. But your ability to pick yourself up and keep at it is what will make you and your art a success. Tenacity is what seperates true leaders from false prophets and bandwagon teachers.

* The final chapter: conclusions *

So, spreading the art is a good thing if done appropriately, I believe. The key to doing it well is a positive motivation, actions, and attitude, a strong acquisition plan, and a good quality product, and the tenacity to maintain all of these, and see it through. With these things in place, you can be very successful in spreading the art without compromising it.

That is my belief, anyways, for what its worth.

 :asian:


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## Cruentus

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Mr. Martin
> 
> To be straight up with you, my only training in FMA is from a college buddy of mine who taught me when I was in school @NYU. I have "rank" in TKD and Kenpo. Havent gotten back into anything since Ive come back. Been lurking here since I see a lot of people here list WNY as their location. Lots of "bad blood" I see from searching the posting history of some of you guys, didnt know it was like that in FMA.



"Bad Blood" is a fact of the martial arts, regardless of what you train in. As long as you keep a positive attitude for yourself, bad blood will not effect you in a negative way, and you'll be able to learn good Martial Arts.

I didn't know if you were looking for a school, or not, but if you are, check out Datu Tim's school, if he is near enough to you. He's one of the best in da bidness.    Website: http://www.wmarnis.com

Paul Janulis
 :asian:


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## StraightRazor

Thanks a lot guys. Just testing the waters here, dont mean to get off topic. Like to know the background before I jump into anything if you catch me?

The politics you guys are talking about. Do they really effect the students or is it more the leaders that get involved in them? Mots of my schooling experience has been more "businesslike" pay learn and leave, never got into anything else.


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## Cruentus

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Thanks a lot guys. Just testing the waters here, dont mean to get off topic. Like to know the background before I jump into anything if you catch me?
> 
> The politics you guys are talking about. Do they really effect the students or is it more the leaders that get involved in them? Mots of my schooling experience has been more "businesslike" pay learn and leave, never got into anything else.



Most of the time, at least in modern arnis anyways, politics have little to do with the students.

But really, it's all up to you. If your mindset is not to worship an instructor, and not to involve yourself in the politics, then you'll be fine.

 :asian:


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## arnisandyz

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Thanks a lot guys. Just testing the waters here, dont mean to get off topic. Like to know the background before I jump into anything if you catch me?
> 
> The politics you guys are talking about. Do they really effect the students or is it more the leaders that get involved in them? Mots of my schooling experience has been more "businesslike" pay learn and leave, never got into anything else.



Just speaking for myself as a student and my experiences with my teachers and other friends teachers...I have been very fortunate that most people that  i have had the pleasure to train with offer much more than instruction for money. There agendas have always been pure in sharing (spreading the art).  They not only teach you a skill, but really welcome you into thier martial arts family. With that jesture from the teacher comes a sense of loyalty, dedication and ownership from the student.  I believe this is one reason why you see students getting involved in the politics.  No offense, but as far as "pay, learn and leave" I would find it somewhat unrewarding for both the student and the teacher. Martial Arts shouldn't be like your getting a burger through a McDonald's drive-thu.


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## Tgace

I told myself Id stay out of this one (so much for that), but I figured Id put my $.02 in.

"Spreading the art" and heck even the politics involved may not necessarily be a "bad thing" as long as its for the sake of the art and the welfare of those practicing it. When It turns into ego and fighting over "whos who" is where it crosses the line. Like its been said, the politics around here have cooled lately, hopefully the fires are out and not just smouldering.


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## loki09789

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> StraightRazor - on behalf of the MT Admin/Mod team ... *WELCOME!*
> 
> This is so true in a lot of "commercial schools." What I find really disturbing is that now you have several generations of instructors, who were products of their own instructors and do not even know what they are missing.
> 
> -Michael


Not only are they not aware of what is missing, they stubbornly refuse to seek the rest or accept it when it is offered because 'that isn't what he/she/they' did as the only justification.  In the 'one art' thread I made the point that one person can not know all, one system can not be truly complete or whole (not in terms of self defense at least).  That is especially true if the 'cult of personallity' issue has left a legacy of insecurity and ego that keeps people from balancing tradition with change.

I respect the TMA's, but I don't think that introducting new things/variations to answer current threats (firearms, tactics....) or make it easier to learn in a different teaching environment (new country/culture, different ages, ability....) is a bad thing, but there are those who would say that you are watering down, it isn't as good as,  or it isn't authentic or original.  "Spreading the art" isn't just a geographical spreading but a legacy issue.  Balancing the spread of the art by allowing it to change and adapt to the times/needs goes a long way to keeping it alive.  Being open to that adaptation and change, and doing it well, is only possible if people loose the ego and 'who's who' motivation and stay with the 'training with a purpose' motivation.


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## loki09789

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Thanks a lot guys. Just testing the waters here, dont mean to get off topic. Like to know the background before I jump into anything if you catch me?
> 
> The politics you guys are talking about. Do they really effect the students or is it more the leaders that get involved in them? Mots of my schooling experience has been more "businesslike" pay learn and leave, never got into anything else.


Based on your earlier bio, your experience with formal martial arts seemed to be at lower ranks so chances of political stuff are slim to none.  I think Arnisanyz's point about students, seniors usually, getting involved is due to a desire to move closer to the 'head of the table' themselves.  The political stuff really wasn't a big training floor distraction for the majority of my time as student/assistant instructor.  After I opened my own place years back it was different.  I was vested, it was my paycheck and not only was the art my product, but 'me' as well.

There was even an incident where another BB came and trained with us for a while, admitted to little to no FMA training and wanted to learn more.  Fine.  A little while later he opens his own shop and lists MA/FMA as part of his program.  I don't know if that was politics when I called him and told him that my reputation in FMA was going to be reflected in his poor presentation and I would like him to take the FMA/MA stuff down, but it felt political.

Students are there for training and a positive social/learning culture.  Instructors/assistant instructors should be at least aware of the local 'feel' so they can do effective business.  Politics comes with business.  But it doesn't have to be a negative.  It is frustrating, time consuming and mind boggling though.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Okay, then who was your NYU instructor/system if you need/want a training group there are many here who would welcome a good training partner. Knowing your previous training might help find the best fit/group.
> 
> It's too bad that you didn't list the TKD/Kenpo Rank under that section of the profile.  Lot's of those schools around here too.  What was your NYU major?




Does it really matter? If he doesnt feel like posting his intel thats up to him.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Been lurking here since I see a lot of people here list WNY as their location. Lots of "bad blood" I see from searching the posting history of some of you guys, didnt know it was like that in FMA.



Before you make any decisions on whats going on in the WNY FMA scene, you should try to meeting with some of the players and make your own mind up. Feel free you drop in to my school and try a class. Here are directions to my school. http://horizonma.com/map.htm

My school number is 675-0899

Feel free to call or stop by anytime.

Respectfully,
Datu Tim Hartman
WMAA & Horizon Martial Arts
 :asian:


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## loki09789

I'm just going to say this outright to avoid more 'veiled' niceties and the 'hollywood kiss' level of sincerity that usually comes with the cold war level of gamesmanship.

It seems awefully suspicious that a topical discussion is continuously redirected by two post account ID's with thin to no history or bio information toward 'politics' and away from topic.  It is also suspicious that the direction it is being channeled toward is a personal discussion of 'causing trouble' by Arniss Princess and "bad blood" by StraightRazor.

Now, Tim H. is casting a negative light on my seeking info on St. Rzr's background when the reason is clearly stated in the post:  letting those who have similar groups offer up their time.  Heck, I even wrote StraightRazor a PM inviting him to a July 11th seminar.

I am not asking for ID validation nor am I going to come out looking good making this statement, but it is this 'well, just wondering....' type of stuff that makes it not so fun to discuss stuff because people are too busy seeing general comments as being jabs.

If these discussions could stay on topic instead of being redirected it would be a demonstration of maturity as far as I am concerned.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

I think you're seeing Ghosts.


:btg:


----------



## StraightRazor

Ouch! I dint mean to draw such suspicion. 3 or 4 posts and im drawing bad rep points already 

For the record I only listed FMA in my profile because I thought the box asked for my primary interest not my training history (which isnt high level). Ive tried to return PM's but my computer just locks up for some reason. it does it when I try to quote posts too. Try e-mail if you want to go off line. I only raise the politics issue because its mentioned pretty outright here and I guess the flack Im drawing is born of it. Unless Im "seeing ghosts". if it will help the thread I guess I will just "ease out" of this one.


----------



## StraightRazor

BTW the history between you guys is pretty obvious, heck all you have to do is read through the threads on the filipino arts forums to see something is going on, its not like I had to be "in" with anybody to figure it out.


----------



## tshadowchaser

I agree lets stay on the subject of the thread.  That is about spreading the art, not about someones id or personal information. Ask him by pm or email if he wants to answee he will.
 Now I had thought up until a short while ago that to spread an art a person should stay under the banner of the originator. My thought patteren now says that if a student who has become an instructor and has the experence of years of study leaves the parent organisation, for what ever reason, but continues to teach the material that was taught to him and gives do credit to where it came from that is still spreading the art.
 Also I do not feel that produceing 100 or 500 black blt or instructors is spreading the art if those people do not understand the principles and applications of their art. Rank alone dose not give a person knowledge, nor dose it mean that that person can pass on what they know. They must be able to teach and explain what  they are teaching, in order to pass on the art.


----------



## ARNIS PRINCESS

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> BTW the history between you guys is pretty obvious, heck all you have to do is read through the threads on the filipino arts forums to see something is going on, its not like I had to be "in" with anybody to figure it out.




Agreed. The two have had many exchanges in the past.


----------



## loki09789

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> Im new here. This is my first post as a matter of fact. But i have been lurking as a guest for a while. And I jump into a political thread (typical )
> 
> I notice that there seems to be more behind this thread than I can see on the surface. It started on the originating thread and seems to be brewing here too. A sort of simmering tension. Between players here. You guys know each other or somthin?


"the history between you guys is pretty obvious..."

Then why is it necessary, inside or out, to ask about it? If those on the 'inside' aren't talking about it, why should someone, who sees it as obvious, bother to ask?


I still am asking that we just continue with the topic of the thread, please respond if you must through PM. Your computer seems to be back up and running, so maybe you can respond through PM now so that we can both avoid further high jacking. If your computer allows you to respond/contribute you should be fine to PM (same system btw). If not, my profile is pretty complete and you can reply via my email.  I have tried emailing you, it is blocked...


----------



## ARNIS PRINCESS

Maybe someone should split this thread to help keep it on course?


----------



## loki09789

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Also I do not feel that produceing 100 or 500 black blt or instructors is spreading the art if those people do not understand the principles and applications of their art. Rank alone dose not give a person knowledge, nor dose it mean that that person can pass on what they know. They must be able to teach and explain what they are teaching, in order to pass on the art.


I like the quality first tone to this point.  How do you think changes/adaptations and innovations to an art fit into this equation?

An example is DEFENDO (formerly DEFENDU) which has re-appeared with a slightly new name and a new Thai boxing foundation that wasn't there in the earlier forms.  If anyone remembers the original Star Trek tv series, the fighting style that all the Kirkies used was actually DEFENDU.

Another, more contraversial as well, evolution is in Krav Maga.  Those who trained in the original paramilitary/LEO approach are very critical of the current commercial form. It has spread as an art, I still think it has merit in self defense myself (if a little overkillish at times for the letigious US).  There is 'politics' there because there is a difference in philosophies:  Small and authentic/VERY hard core vs.  Larger and more accessible.


----------



## OULobo

One problem is that every time an art is passed on it gets a new spin. Many people see this as a "watering down". Every teacher puts a different application or approach into his teaching. I have found that I agree most with teachers that separate and maintain the integrity of thier individual arts and also teach a blended system under a different name. This allows the original arts to be spread as close to original as possible, but still allows students to have the option to learn the effectivness of a blended system with the instructors personal flavor. The hardest part of this is that the instructor usually inevitably has a favorite and may loose the motivation to teach the other arts in their most intact form.


----------



## bart

My teacher, Ramon Rubia, once mentioned something that a GM once told him: 

"To be a master you have to contribute to the art. You have to innovate or preserve, but be active in its development so that it stays 'alive'."

It was so true that it stuck with me. That type of philosophy allows different types of persons to rise to that high level. Some people are great at preserving. They learn and master what they have been taught and they keep true to what the system that they learned is. They pass on the art in the form truest to the way they learned it. Others innovate. They take the art, internalize it and express themselves through it. They pass on the art as it has come to flower in them. Both methods are important and can exist within the same teacher although they tend to polarize on one or the other. But the end result is the same, the system is proliferated and developed and stays "living."


----------



## ARNIS PRINCESS

bart said:
			
		

> My teacher, Ramon Rubia, once mentioned something that a GM once told him:
> 
> "To be a master you have to contribute to the art. You have to innovate or preserve, but be active in its development so that it stays 'alive'."
> 
> It was so true that it stuck with me. That type of philosophy allows different types of persons to rise to that high level. Some people are great at preserving. They learn and master what they have been taught and they keep true to what the system that they learned is. They pass on the art in the form truest to the way they learned it. Others innovate. They take the art, internalize it and express themselves through it. They pass on the art as it has come to flower in them. Both methods are important and can exist within the same teacher although they tend to polarize on one or the other. But the end result is the same, the system is proliferated and developed and stays "living."




Well said.


----------



## Dan Anderson

Wellllllll, I certainly came onto this thread rather late.  My 2 cents worth.  Spreading the art.  What is your motive behind it?  Mine?  I like the art.  I like the founder.  I thing there are many good skills that can come out of training in the art.  So, you can spread the art personally via seminars, private lessons or teaching students.  You can spread the art through media such as books and videos/DVDs.  The only tough thing is quality control.  If you personally teach someone, you can run quality control quite easily.  Seminars are tougher because you are not trying to piss someone off by constantly correcting him/her and you want to be brought back.  Media instruction you haven't got a ghost of a chance so you hope for the best.  The plus side is the more dissemination, the more people to hook up with and it can all come out right in the end.   

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## arnisandyz

Something that should be considered...what is "IT" your spreading? Is it the overall art and culture of the Philippines? a specific system or style from a specific founder? or your groups interpretation or innovation of a specific style?  As Mr Anderson said - there are different motives. When I am teaching my nephews and thier friends (American born Filipino kids), my motives are to make them feel proud of being Filipino, so its more about culture, history, etc.  If I am representing a specific system,  i try to make it very clear "what I was shown" with the statement that other people might do it differently.  And Finally, when representing our groups interpretation and innovation with someone, my motives are to share.  Most often the people I share with are very experienced and will then share thier "way" of doing things and we all learn.

Andy


----------



## loki09789

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Something that should be considered...what is "IT" your spreading? Is it the overall art and culture of the Philippines? a specific system or style from a specific founder? or your groups interpretation or innovation of a specific style? As Mr Anderson said - there are different motives. When I am teaching my nephews and thier friends (American born Filipino kids), my motives are to make them feel proud of being Filipino, so its more about culture, history, etc. If I am representing a specific system, i try to make it very clear "what I was shown" with the statement that other people might do it differently. And Finally, when representing our groups interpretation and innovation with someone, my motives are to share. Most often the people I share with are very experienced and will then share thier "way" of doing things and we all learn.
> 
> Andy


This is exactly why I say just focusing on teaching well and practicing well should be the mainstay. The rest is what you do to keep the doors open or to put that quality into a mission or philosophy for meaning.

How many really are really comfortable with doing more than instructing a martial art system? Other than a homespun/folk (meaning word of mouth type of level) level of instruction, I don't know too many martial arts instructors who are educated well enough on the culture, beyond the art, to be truly considered cultural emmisaries. Other than basics of good conduct and golden rule type of instruction, I don't know ANY martial artists who could really be considered qualified to be 'moral mentors' to be at a Deacon/Elder/Priest of a philosophy/theology of Zen, Tao, Buddhism, Christianity/Islam...

So beyond the technique, the system and the customs and courtesies that you are using (if they come from the tradition/culture), the rest of what you are 'spreading' is your personallity and your individual presentation of 'what my instructor did.' The communication, the analogies, the stories..... all your version of the last version you were exposed to and so on back through to who ever created/originated/labelled your system/school as distinct - whether it is only a slight difference or a large philosophical leap from what was before.

Teaching and practicing well with solid people will draw others because it will be appealing. RP was an incredibly charismatic figure who attracted as many new people because of his personallity as his art did. They may have stayed for the art, but many were drawn to him first.

Teaching is the primary mover in a martial art system.  For me that should be for self defense through personal development first.  Education and fitness are the keys to reducing the statistical causes of 'random' violence or the likelyhood that a person will let themselves walk into a 'domestic' violent situation.


----------



## Dan Anderson

Arnisandyz,

*VERY* good post.  Right on the button.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## sungkit

Good post Bart about what was said to your teacher Ramon Rubia by one ofthe grandmasters.

My teacher Snr Master Roland Dantes adheres to the same belief. There are masters training and researching to the point that they innovate and infuse the results into the material that they are teaching. Then there are those who hand the system down exactly like they were taught by their teacher.

Having been in the Philippines a few months training and interviewing different masters, I have seen many instances of those who are innovating and those who are maintaining  the system they are teaching as excactly as they were taught. This was obvious when I had the opportunity to meet and interview several masters of balintawak and modern arnis here.


----------



## DoxN4cer

Spreading the art....

IMHO it's all about integrity. Stand by. I'm going rambling... 

Spreading the art is more than teaching for the sake of teaching. It's more than enrolment numbers. It's the quality of the product you put out that matters. You can teach, or you can inspire. Which would you rather do? 

In teaching, is rank more important than skill? Are you more concerned with the development of your students rather than your reputation and finances?

Is martial arts your vocation, or avocation?

Do you expect your students to worship you the way you worshipped your instructor?

Do you belittle and criticize other instructors openly and avoid them when they find out about your behavior, or do you tell your students that everyone hase something to offer and invite them to see what other instructors have to offer? 

Do you brag about how tough you are, but avoid confrontation with the people who you spoke ill of?

Do you teach martial arts because it's the only marketable skill you have and you got tired of washing dishes at the pizza joint?

Do you talk about "real" combat when you have never seen it? (see www.phonyveterans.com)

Are you honest in presenting your material? For example: Do you "create" a "new" system by taking techniques from a famous instuctor and renaming it something like "mano y baraw" and calling it your own original knife fighting method, or do you simply borrow drills from other systems and tell your students "this drill is from XXX system, and I dicided to include it because it has value"?     

In selling books, videos and the like, do you charge $60 for a $10 product?

Do you give $30 worth of instruction at seminars that cost students $100 or more to attend, or do you charge nothing for knowledge that is priceless?

Is your wallet full and your heart empty?

I suppose I could go on and on for days, but I'll stop there. I'm done philosophizing. 

Paul Janulis touch on this earlier in the thread; It's not about how many people you teach, or how many products you sell. It's about the lasting impression you leave on people and how honest you are with your students and yourself.

Submitted respectfully,

Tim Kashino


----------



## OULobo

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Spreading the art....
> 
> IMHO it's all about integrity. Stand by. I'm going rambling...
> 
> Spreading the art is more than teaching for the sake of teaching. It's more than enrolment numbers. It's the quality of the product you put out that matters. You can teach, or you can inspire. Which would you rather do?
> 
> In teaching, is rank more important than skill? Are you more concerned with the development of your students rather than your reputation and finances?
> 
> Is martial arts your vocation, or avocation?
> 
> Do you expect your students to worship you the way you worshipped your instructor?
> 
> Do you belittle and criticize other instructors openly and avoid them when they find out about your behavior, or do you tell your students that everyone hase something to offer and invite them to see what other instructors have to offer?
> 
> Do you brag about how tough you are, but avoid confrontation with the people who you spoke ill of?
> 
> Do you teach martial arts because it's the only marketable skill you have and you got tired of washing dishes at the pizza joint?
> 
> Do you talk about "real" combat when you have never seen it? (see www.phonyveterans.com)
> 
> Are you honest in presenting your material? For example: Do you "create" a "new" system by taking techniques from a famous instuctor and renaming it something like "mano y baraw" and calling it your own original knife fighting method, or do you simply borrow drills from other systems and tell your students "this drill is from XXX system, and I dicided to include it because it has value"?
> 
> In selling books, videos and the like, do you charge $60 for a $10 product?
> 
> Do you give $30 worth of instruction at seminars that cost students $100 or more to attend, or do you charge nothing for knowledge that is priceless?
> 
> Is your wallet full and your heart empty?
> 
> I suppose I could go on and on for days, but I'll stop there. I'm done philosophizing.
> 
> Paul Janulis touch on this earlier in the thread; It's not about how many people you teach, or how many products you sell. It's about the lasting impression you leave on people and how honest you are with your students and yourself.
> 
> Submitted respectfully,
> 
> Tim Kashino



I don't think I've seen so many vailed (or not so vailed) shots taken in one post.


----------



## DoxN4cer

OULobo said:
			
		

> I don't think I've seen so many vailed (or not so vailed) shots taken in one post.



Shots? No, just observations over many years and many miles. Tim Hartman so eloquently stated earlier, "I think you're seeing Ghosts".

If someone here feels that I've wronged them by speaking my mind, I hope they realize that I'm not picking on any one particular person. I am commenting on things I have seen in the past... and present.  However, if the shoe fits... put it on and walk.

TK


----------



## Cruentus

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Shots? No, just observations over many years and many miles. Tim Hartman so eloquently stated earlier, "I think you're seeing Ghosts".
> 
> If someone here feels that I've wronged them by speaking my mind, I hope they realize that I'm not picking on any one particular person. I am commenting on things I have seen in the past... and present.  However, if the shoe fits... put it on and walk.
> 
> TK



Dude, it's pretty obvious that your taking shots at Hartman. When OUlobo, a respectable martial artist from Ohio who doesn't even do Modern Arnis notices, then that should give you a clue that your "shots" weren't vieled at all.

The sad thing is, you make good points in your post. I like what you said about it being about integrity. I like what you said about it being about the quality of product. I especially liked your reference to "hero worship," which is an extremely overlooked problem that we have in the martial arts world.

However, with all the good points, you are clearly attacking someone in the process. Why? Who does it help? What does it solve? All it does is make people wanna ignore your good points. I see your good points, and I wanna say "Nice point, Tim K.!" I wanna give you a little positive rep points. However...I can't, because I can't agree with attacking someone in the process. 

I just don't understand what it solves to attack someone over an ongoing feud. Hey, if Hartman wronged you last week and you were still pissed off, I could understand, and I wouldn't have s**t to say. However, this has been ongoing, and doesn't seem to have an end in site.

Don't veil it, Tim K. If you have a beef with Hartman and you feel that it needs to be hashed out publically, then state your problem and your beef. Don't mince words. I won't come to the rescue on it if you do either...I promise. If there is nothing that can be worked or hashed out, then why not just worry about YOUR "product" and YOUR training, and let people be?

I just don't understand what it solves to drag the horse through the mud, after it has been killed? Not anymore, anyways.

 :idunno:


----------



## DoxN4cer

I remember seeing some wise words somewhere... something to the effect of  "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics..." 

I love how you guys turn things around. "BOO-HOO, Tim's picking on us. Make the bad man stop!!!"  

...YAWN... 

I apologize for any perceved wrong doing.  Grow up. Get over it. Move on.

I try to focus on integrity, and you turn it into something about Tim Hartman. Frankly, Paul, in my post I gave examples based on and experiences I have had and people that I have met and dealt with over the course of the last 20 years, and they have very little if anything to do with the man. Thanks for dragging my post off course and degrading its meaning. Well done. 

BTW... the sky blue. Got a problem with that statement as well?

TK


----------



## Cruentus

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> I remember seeing some wise words somewhere... something to the effect of  "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics..."
> 
> I love how you guys turn things around. "BOO-HOO, Tim's picking on us. Make the bad man stop!!!"
> 
> ...YAWN...
> 
> I apologize for any perceved wrong doing.  Grow up. Get over it. Move on.
> 
> BTW... the sky blue. Got a problem with that statement as well?
> 
> TK



 Dude, come on!?  :rofl: 

It was so clear that you were attacking Hartman specifically that even someone running a race in the special olympics could run by a computer screen and catch it (to go with the trend of your interesting analogy).

Look, Tim K., I don't care that much about what you do. If you want to attack Hartman, then go ahead, have a blast. I am sure he can defend himself too. I am not Hartman, so it effects me very little.

What I am trying to understand is why you feel the need to attack him, or anyone, to make a point? If you got beef, don't be a sissy girl, and state your beef. If you just dislike someone, and no amount of hashing or bashing will change that, then how about do your work, train, and be happy? That seems like the answer to me.

Dude, if I'm off base, let me know.

 :asian:


----------



## Cruentus

Sorry, Tim K.. I just saw your PM before my last response. We can take it private instead of degrading this thread if you'd like.

 :asian:


----------



## DoxN4cer

Tulisan said:
			
		

> :
> 
> Dude, if I'm off base, let me know.
> 
> :asian:



You're WAY off base... more like over the foul line and into the stands. 

So ends my contribution to your derailment of this thread.


----------



## Cruentus

TIm K.,

I apoligize if I am off base, and I apologize for not taking this PM eariler. I am officially taking it PM now, so the thread can be no longer derailed.

I'll shut up now...  :uhyeah:


----------



## bart

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Spreading the art....
> 
> IMHO it's all about integrity. Stand by. I'm going rambling...
> 
> Tim Kashino



Hey Guys,

The personal attack points must be really veiled because I didn't see them when I read the post. The only hooks into any person were:

pizza joint
phony veterans
mano y baraw

The rest were extremely general and hardly personal shots. Unless Tim H was formerly a pizza maker with some phony military stories and a technique specifically called mano y baraw that he glommed from somebody else, then the post was just a statement of personal opinions. Tim K's post seemed to me to just be an impersonal rant about some of the legitimate problems out there concerning some vastly generalized types of people promoting the art. The threads can get political if you let them, but to me it seemed like good but somewhat sarcastic post. 

Most of the points were pretty good pieces about problems that we face with lots of other instructors wherever we teach. If there were some points that can be seen as personal that seem to have slipped passed me, please PM or email me about those exact references so that I can see the connection.


----------



## Flatlander

Hey, I worked in the pizza industry for 4 years.  We're people too.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





(But I'm out of that now.  Way too much stress.)


----------



## Dan Anderson

Party on, Bart!  I see it the same way.  The points TK brought up are legitimate points.  Despite the fact that TK and TH have been involved in BS, I don't see enough for PH to come to TH's defense against TK...IMHO. 
 :boing2: 
It does all boil down to integrity when you spread the art.  Now here's the kicker.  What is true for one might not be true for another.  I just posted over in the kenpo/kempo forum making a point for student contracts in the school.  To him, when you see a contract, run the other way.  To me, it ensures the bills get paid.  For him, integrity has gone out the window when you have a student sign a contract and for me, my integrity won't let me close the school doors.

Integrity and ethics are personal matters.  Tough to regulate.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Cruentus

O.K....time to let out the secret that there is a big, pink elephant in the room.  :rofl: 

1. Tim H. worked for pizza hut before he was a martial arts school owner.

2. Dr. Maung Gyi, who was a friend to Remy Presas, and who is now a friend to the WMAA, and a signee on TIm H's 7th degree diploma, has been featured in phonyvets.com.

3. Tim H., with Professors permission, had programs like Mano y Baraw in place before Professor passed away.

Now, if you didn't know the above, now you do. If you did, stop trying to act like there isn't a pink elephant in the room, please, as it makes me think that I am crazier then I'd like to be.  :uhyeah: 

Please understand, I am not even defending Tim H.; Tim H. can defend himself he he feels the need to. I was just trying to understand why Tim Kashino would put these attacks in a post with such good points? It makes people tend to not look at the good points, and focus on the vieled "shots."

Anyways, I should have asked Tim K all this in private so it wouldn't look like I was running to the rescue again. I apoligized for not doing that already, and I apologize for it again. I PMed Tim K., so hopefully we can continue a conversation that way.

And...I am only posting this here for your own understanding.

Thank you,

Paul "trying to avoid politics but failing in this thead" Janulis


----------



## Emptyglass

Hi Paul:



			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> Please understand, I am not even defending Tim H.; Tim H. can defend himself he he feels the need to. I was just trying to understand why Tim Kashino would put these attacks in a post with such good points? It makes people tend to not look at the good points, and focus on the vieled "shots."



It seemed to me like people were focusing on the good points.

Respectfully,

Rich Curren


----------



## arnisador

Tim Hartman used to get me free or reduced price pizzas, so please leave him alone.


----------



## lhommedieu

bart said:
			
		

> My teacher, Ramon Rubia, once mentioned something that a GM once told him:
> 
> "To be a master you have to contribute to the art. You have to innovate or preserve, but be active in its development so that it stays 'alive'."



Reminds me of a story someone told me recently:

A film crew was in a remote town in the Philippines documenting a festival of some kind.  During the festival, an old man came out of his house with an espada y daga and began running through a form in front of the camera crew.  It was obvious that the old man possessed an extremely honed skill.  When they asked the townsfolk about him, no one knew that he practiced martial arts.  The old man said that when he saw the cameras he thought they might like to see a demonstration.

I guess that he "preserved" for a long time, and then "innovated" when the time was right.

One of Auden's poems is about someone who 

....lived at home;
Did little jobs about the house with skill
And nothing else; could whistle; would sit still
Or potter round the garden...

Substitute "practice martial arts" for any of the phrases above and you have a pretty good paradigm for the Daoist (as opposed to Confucist) model 
of "spreading the art."

Best,

Steve Lamade


----------



## Rich Parsons

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> BTW... the sky blue. Got a problem with that statement as well?
> 
> TK



Tim,

I do have a problme with the above Blue Sky Statment.  I have nto seen enough of them to keep my top down or ride my motorcycle.

So, if you have anything to do with it being a blue sky, you are missing ssouth east Michigan. Send some of the Med Blue Sky this way. ok?

Thanks


----------



## Joe Eccleston

Tulisan said:
			
		

> However, with all the good points, you are clearly attacking someone in the process. Why? Who does it help? What does it solve? All it does is make people wanna ignore your good points. I see your good points, and I wanna say "Nice point, Tim K.!" I wanna give you a little positive rep points. However...I can't, because I can't agree with attacking someone in the process.




HaHaHa... I guess we're off to the races again, fellas.  

I did have a question about rep points.  I finally put something on my "profile".  While doing this, I noticed a bunch of red and green boxes as "reputation points".  What is this? Who gives these points? and What are they good for? Can I cash them or trade them for a prize later in the future?

p.s.--- oh yeah... and who gave me red ones?!!!!!!!!


----------



## Joe Eccleston

As for spreading the art... IMHO, as long as youre teaching, whether instructing 1 student or thousands of students, you're spreading the art. and that in itself is... Commendable.:asian:


----------



## Flatlander

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> HaHaHa... I guess we're off to the races again, fellas.
> 
> I did have a question about rep points. I finally put something on my "profile". While doing this, I noticed a bunch of red and green boxes as "reputation points". What is this? Who gives these points? and What are they good for? Can I cash them or trade them for a prize later in the future?
> 
> p.s.--- oh yeah... and who gave me red ones?!!!!!!!!


Rep points are explained in detail here : http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13010


----------



## StraightRazor

What is a Datu??


----------



## arnisador

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> What is a Datu??


See for example:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12836
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?&threadid=497
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9017
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8140

I'm sure there's more.


----------



## loki09789

Hock Hochem (sp?) has been criticised for 'repackaging' already existing FMA knife arts in his western/LEO formula to create his Knife Congress.  I am not one of those because he is a vet. of both LEO and MA/FMA so he has every right to carry on as he sees fit.

Dubious military background....TONS of examples of that in the "Combatives" realm and I believe Paul J. used an example of a questionable combatives artist in a past post.

There are about a MILLIONS Mano y Something named arts in FMA.

Tim also worked in the auto parts resale industry, so what.

Tim K could just as readily said "factory worker" or "check out girl" or "Slinging burgers".....

Dr. Gyi has rep. problems in his military background claims, but those are his problem.

BTW I AM commenting in defense of Tim K AND based on the FACT that no one except Paul J., Arnis Princess, Tim H (though referencially to RP and "Bad Apples") and Straight razor are the only ones bringing up the feuding and bad blood commentary.  Tom G. posted a comment on the topic, I posted a comment on the topic and now Tim K has posted and we have all been accused.  I guess if it is going to whip up, let he who wishes to "throw down" and begin the frivality create the 'arena'... I mean thread...

I personally will not be attending.  Topical discussion creates enough heartburn, I don't need the other. Besides I am married now and my wife won't let me play


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## Datu Tim Hartman

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Do you teach martial arts because it's the only marketable skill you have and you got tired of washing dishes at the pizza joint?



Actually I was one of the managers at Pizza Hut then later at Advance Auto Parts. I learned a lot about customer service while working at both companies and it has helped me tremendously in the Martial Arts industry.



			
				DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Do you teach martial arts because it's the only marketable skill you have and you got tired of washing dishes at the pizza joint?



I have found the same true about some people who have joined the military.


Respectfully,

TJH :asian:


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## Cruentus

Yes....attack PJ...how dare he call the grass green. And please...nobody mention that there is a pink polka-dotted elephant in the room.   



> Rich Curren:It seemed to me like people were focusing on the good points.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Rich Curren



Oh Really? Here was the first post after Tim K.'s post:



> I don't think I've seen so many vailed (or not so vailed) shots taken in one post.



Now, that was posted by someone who is not a Hartman supporter, WMAA member, or even a Modern Arnis player. When I first read Tim K.'s post, I thought, "Well, O.K., he's taking shots at Hartman again." Then I re-read and thought for a second, "Well, maybe he didn't mean it like that." Then I thought and thought, and figured, "No way. There are too many similarities there. That had to be an attack. Well, maybe nobody will notice, or only a few will notice and it won't matter. Maybe people will focus on the good points, and maybe they won't notice any of the attacks that I noticed. Well, when I saw that post after Kashino's by someone who doesn't even do Modern Arnis, then I knew that there would be a fat chance of that. Dare I say, everybody noticed the pink elephant.

Now, again to clarify, I wasn't rescueing anyone. I was only wondering why Tim K. would cheapen all the good things he had to say with the negative shots.

Perhaps I should have asked about this privately to avoid a "political" dispute. Again, my mistake.



> Paul M.: no one except Paul J., Arnis Princess, Tim H (though referencially to RP and "Bad Apples") and Straight razor are the only ones bringing up the feuding and bad blood commentary.



I am politely asking that you don't lump me in a grouping where I don't belong. I have been avoiding disputes and "bad blood" discussions here of late. In fact, I started this thread because I felt that Tom G. had brought up a topic that deserved discussion, so we can't even point the finger at me for siding in a political or "bad blood" dispute. 

Once again (for like the 5th time) I was just wondering why Tim K. would cheapen his good points with blatent attacks (he could have chosen to attack anyone, and I would have asked the same question, btw); a question that I probably should have asked PM.

*Final Thoughts:*

Lets say I give Tim K. the benefit of the doubt; the pink elephant isn't really a pink elephant at all. Tim Kashino was just speaking generally, and I took it wrong. Well, I acknowledge that I may have been off base, and I apoligize (again, also for like the 3rd of 4th time) for it if I was. So maybe this was just a case of it looking like a pink elephant, walking and talking like a pink elephant, but heck, it wasn't a pink elephant at all. No problem.

Well, I am not going to tell people how to act. Instead, I'll speak in a parable so you can all deify me when I am long dead, and quote me in fortune cookies.

When I was a young lad in pre-school, I was a little hyper and destructive at times (I know I know, hard to believe, but you'll just have to trust me   ). At recess I was throwing rocks at the side of the building. A girl came around the corner, and I beaned her in the head on accident. She was O.K., luckily, but naturally she cried and told the teacher. The teacher had me and her aside, and the teacher said, "Why did you hit her with a rock!" I replied, "I didn't mean to hit her with it!" The Teacher, ever so wisely, said, "Well, say your sorry, and be a little more careful next time so you don't do it again."

For the very simple minded, here is the friggin' point. When you wrong someone, whether you ment too or not, the right thing to do is apoligize, and to be careful that you don't do it again. "I'm sorry" or "I apoligize" are two words that can go a long way.

Now, I am not going to tell you how to act, but I am going to say this: If you too damned arrogent to be able to apoligize for something, then why the f**k should anybody waste their time talking with you? 

Well, that's all I have to say on this matter. If any of yea's want to attempt to drag my character through the mud, have a party. I hope that Tim K. and I can continue a discussion via PM; but as far as I am concerned, I am done with this degenerated BS. 

Have fun.
artyon:


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## Dan Anderson

*GUYS!!!!!!  When in hell are you going to drop the side subject and get back to the thread topic!!!???

Aren't you tired of this crap yet?!?!*  :jedi1: 

Exasperatedly Yours,
Dan Anderson, Author of many fine martial arts books and originator of the phrase, "Buy the books!"


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## Tgace

Just making a point.....if "StraightRazor" is being "straight" in his posts, something we all should realize is that this stuff is public. I wonder how many people read through this stuff and wonder what the #@!! is going on in the FMA around here.


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## tshadowchaser

Speaking as a MOD I must agree with Mr Anderson  Please return to the subject matter.


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## lhommedieu

Agreed.  How 'bout a "I Hate Your Guts" forum to be placed right under the "Filipino Martial Arts - General" and "Modern Arnis" forums on Martialtalk.com.  That way, when topics like these appear, we could move the threads to the appropriate receptacle...I mean...forum.

Those of us who are interested only in "I Hate your Guts"-type threads will know where to go to look for better understanding of the Filipino martial arts.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## tshadowchaser

MOD WARNING
 Return this thread to the topic. This is a friendly place to disscuss the arts.
 Personal attacks are not part of the subject matter and are against the rules.

tshadowchaser
MT MOD


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## Rich Parsons

Ladies and Gentlemen,

This thread is closed.

If you decide to all post on topic, then create a new thread to discuss your topics.
*
Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Assistant Administrator
*


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