# William Durbin, Koga Ryu - Kosho Ryu connection?



## Templar

I noticed on E-Budo that Dr. William Durbin, Soke of Kiyojute Ryu Kempo has written a book on Koga Ryu Ninjutsu.

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1153

There are some interesting articles on Mr. Durbin's site pertaining to Kempo, and it supposed links to Koga Ryu.  You can view Mr. Durbin's site here.

http://www.kiyojuteryu.org

Now without starting a flame war, I would like to hear some response on Mr. Durbin's work, especially when it comes to Mitose and Ninjutsu.  Apparently, Durbin has studied the method through Nimr Hassan, Mitose's one and only student during the time of the trial.  He claims that Mitose actually learned the art through Seiko Fujita, who was apart of the entourage that followed Choki Motobu around Japan.

Any thoughts?


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## The Kai

IMHO-Durbin's writings, and lineage have to viewd with more than a grain of salt.  Most of his history is assumptions, half facts and imagination!

Todd


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## John Bishop

Nimr Hassan's (Terry Lee) Kosho Ryu expertise is highly questionable since he was a student of Mitose's for only 7 WEEKS.


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## GAB

Hi,

I have checked the net at various times (over years) and have observed many different groups (they are growing) who are off shoots of Kosho.
Now they are the head of their own group.

If someone was to get 7 weeks of training from a Master, and then take that information and find other information and double their knowledge and do this continuously over a 30 year period. Would they not have gained a lot of information?  Could they not call themselves a master in their own right?

Do we all have to take the same path? Some are OK with one teacher or one way to do something, others are not.

I was at a seminar this weekend, The Master is a 10th Dan in the art of his Father, and his own making, after many years in search and revision. 
His name is Ramiro U. Estalilla, He likes to say, "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King."

We were talking about the numerous arts in the Filipines, he related it to chicken. He said everyone has a martial art in the Filipines, just like we all eat chicken, we may serve it different, but it is still chicken.

I liked that! He is a very nice man and very humble, he has a different approach to the sticks. I enjoyed myself, learned some new moves and application of the stick. I add that, to what I have been learning, or have known for many years.

Numerous persons were promoted to Black Belt in his system that day after the seminar.

It was really good to talk to some of them. Some were from different schools of thought, but were there to continue their path and learning.

Quite a few were very proficient in the art they had been in for many many years. He teaches to the teachers. We were talking about Guro Dan Inosanto,
(this is what I have been learning of late). 
I mentioned his name (Guro Dan) "Apo" as he is called, said, oh yes, Danny, he comes and takes private lessons from me still a couple of times a year...

I was impressed...For several reasons. One...he was an instructor to all and he was an instructor to the instructors. Two...that instructors were seeking new information and not static.

With all this said, I don't think some one who has spent 20 or 30 years in the arts can be just kissed off because he spent a few weeks or months with one instructor. A lot of people are self taught and very good, in fact I think the person who is 'seeking continuously' is the one who is learning more and has much knowledge in many things, more like a blanket rather than a needle.

I worked out with my Son this weekend as a partner, his children are now taking martial arts. That is pretty neat....

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai

Really there is no problem with being self taught.  But please do not claim expertise in a systm that you only have a limited amount of training in!  There are people that remaon with the same instructor for years on end - that would be the expert in the system, not someone who devoted a odd weekend to the study of that particulr art.

True to some degree all martial movement is universal, but the attitude and attributes behind each style can and do change radically!  If you are so sure of this premise start teaching the universal way -with of course yourself as the founder of univerisal ness.
Todd


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## Jeff Boler

I'm going to reserve judgement on this until I read the book.  As a former student of Mr. Durbin, I have always found his theories on Mitose and his relationship to Koga Ryu interesting.  Granted, there are always gaps and holes when it comes to Koga anything, but Durbin's theories are a whole lot closer than what most Koga guys are able to come up with.

A bigger issue for me will be whether or not he mentions Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, as he is now a student in this art form under the Juko Kai umbrella.  (Under John Willson of Canada).  I will be interested to see if tries to link them in somehow....


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## The Kai

Giving Durbin's leanings with supposition I imagine he could and probably will tie the two arts together


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## GAB

Hi Kai.
Your statement is correct, I would never say I am the expert in an art that I only attended for one weekend. But I will be going back for more information this tuesday night and going to set up some private work with Sensei Tim Evans.

I guess again, that is the only thing, you got out of my story??? 
After talking with "Apo" I feel he has the right approach in respects to the arts.
I find in the Filipino arts many many combination of styles and many many systems. I like the reference "it is all chicken".

Regards, Gary


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## GAB

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> I'm going to reserve judgement on this until I read the book. As a former student of Mr. Durbin, I have always found his theories on Mitose and his relationship to Koga Ryu interesting. Granted, there are always gaps and holes when it comes to Koga anything, but Durbin's theories are a whole lot closer than what most Koga guys are able to come up with.
> 
> A bigger issue for me will be whether or not he mentions Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, as he is now a student in this art form under the Juko Kai umbrella. (Under John Willson of Canada). I will be interested to see if tries to link them in somehow....


Hi Jeff,

Did you learn anything from your experience with the Dr.

Did you have much information when you started, did you have more when you left? You sound like you are pretty reserved regarding your association.

Supposition, like the conversations, going on in EPAK about techniques and the different opinions on a daily basis, or many other topics on this board.

Regards, Gary


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## Jeff Boler

Let me say that my problems with Mr. Durbin are not in his abilities, or his knowledge.  I have some problems with people that he chooses to associate with, but that's about it.

I went in Kiyojute Ryu Kempo with a dan rank in Hapkido.  I learned a lot under Durbin, and was surprised at the size of the Kiyojute Ryu curriculum.  (Which is what really got me interested.)

Durbin's an excellent teacher, and seemed to have a good handle on technique.  His historical research seemed to be an attempt at further bolsting his claims of lineage, but maybe that's just my observation.

Durbin is set in his beliefs that Mitose was not the monster that everyone makes him out to be.  He believes that Mitose was setup, therefore not necessarily guilty of the crimes he committed.  I believe Durbin is simply trying to look at the positive contributions of Mitose, instead of the negative.

I can't, necessarily, find fault in that.


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## Karazenpo

Templar said:
			
		

> I noticed on E-Budo that Dr. William Durbin, Soke of Kiyojute Ryu Kempo has written a book on Koga Ryu Ninjutsu.
> 
> http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1153
> 
> There are some interesting articles on Mr. Durbin's site pertaining to Kempo, and it supposed links to Koga Ryu.  You can view Mr. Durbin's site here.
> 
> http://www.kiyojuteryu.org
> 
> Now without starting a flame war, I would like to hear some response on Mr. Durbin's work, especially when it comes to Mitose and Ninjutsu.  Apparently, Durbin has studied the method through Nimr Hassan, Mitose's one and only student during the time of the trial.  He claims that Mitose actually learned the art through Seiko Fujita, who was apart of the entourage that followed Choki Motobu around Japan.
> 
> Any thoughts?



We had this discussion about Mitose's Seiko Fujita connection on the Kajukenbo Cafe. A representative of Fujita's art wrote in and stated it is absolutely not true, no connection what-so-ever. I'll have to go through the archives to find it when I have time. I do recall this gentlemen being legit and posting his name, position and so forth so we took this information to be valid.
Personally, I think Dr. Durbin is way off in his history connections with Mitose and doesn't even mention Nabura Tanamaha, a 1st or 2nd generation Motobu black belt whom Mitose has been traced to as training under in Hawaii. If you carefully read Durbin's claims you will see they are not backed by fact and much is attributed to the word of Nmir Hassan (Terry Lee). Hey, didn't he do jail time for murder???? So we're going to believe him, right? I don't think so.


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## The Kai

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kai.
> I guess again, that is the only thing, you got out of my story???
> After talking with "Apo" I feel he has the right approach in respects to the arts.
> I find in the Filipino arts many many combination of styles and many many systems. I like the reference "it is all chicken".
> 
> Regards, Gary


Actually, I got the entire post.  It's all chicken -right

though it may all be chicken, there is a difference how it is prepared in the phillipines of in france.  Again chicken may be the basics but there so many other considerations, spices, methods of preparation, pasta,etc.  Sometimes it does'nt taste or look like the chicken we know (that might not be bad per se).
Are you eating the chicken as a appetizer, main course, or a add-on?
Do you have special diety needs?  It might all be the same chicken, but not same in taste, texture, smell or even order it is being consumed.
Again all the basics are there but you have a heck of a lot of combinations!
Being good at french cuisine might not make you the best choice for chef at a italian restruant
Todd


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## The Kai

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Durbin is set in his beliefs that Mitose was not the monster that everyone makes him out to be. He believes that Mitose was setup, therefore not necessarily guilty of the crimes he committed. I believe Durbin is simply trying to look at the positive contributions of Mitose, instead of the negative.
> 
> I can't, necessarily, find fault in that.


if he believes Mitose is innocent, and buddies with terry lee-who is responsible for the murders?

What is Durbin;s actual lineage (who what did he start with)?
Todd


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## GAB

Hi Kai,

Yes, you are right on...

Regards, Gary


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## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> if he believes Mitose is innocent, and buddies with terry lee-who is responsible for the murders?
> 
> What is Durbin;s actual lineage (who what did he start with)?
> Todd


Hi, I posted on another board about the whole Mitose thing. I find that the word I used is very appropriate here.

Convoluted

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai

Help me out here so i'm not guessing what word you mean

Thankss
todd


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## Jeff Boler

> What is Durbin;s actual lineage (who what did he start with)?



Here's the heart of the problem that I had with Durbin.  The majority of Durbin's lineage is through Rod Sacharnoski, of Juko Kai.  He did end up receiving a 5th dan (I think) from Hassan in Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo and Ninjutsu.

Durbin has gone to both Juchnick and Thomas Mitose, and received some sort of "recognition" of his Sokeship in Kiyojute Ryu.  Now what that means, I don't really know.


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## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> if he believes Mitose is innocent, and buddies with terry lee-who is responsible for the murders?
> 
> What is Durbin;s actual lineage (who what did he start with)?
> Todd



Here's his website:  


www.kiyojuteryu.org


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## The Kai

Thanks Karazenpo, but I am familiar with Mr Durbin

  I why I'm asking is that durbin did'nt hook up with Dr. Ron till later on his travels
Todd


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## GAB

I like his (durbin)Mon, I do believe he should have added the octagon though.

Kai...The word is convoluted. I posted it in the other post also.
It would be appropriate here also...
Hassan, (hassan) when he is using that term, has anyone talked to him to find out, if it is from the meaning of western thought, or eastern thought, have in mind? 

The Eastern or Arab world, say, it is not to be confused with the way we the Western people think.

Western thought, Hassan... is connected to the Assassains, Eastern feel it is the keeper of the true meaning of the way. His full name in Western thought interpreted is... Nimer=Panther... Hassan= Assassain. Or Arab would be, Panther+ Keeper of the way or Gatekeeper, or maybe the Gate protector.

What do you think??? 

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai

GAB

Actuaaly saw the word at the bottom of the post (oops).  I don't think convoluted would be the best word.  Entrenched perhaps, As in I have a idea of innocence entrenched in my ming and nothing can dissuade me?

I did not know that the name had two meanings -although I have to admit killing and old man really doe'nt seem to be a gate protector thing to do.  ??
Todd


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## GAB

Hi Kai,

Do you think I believe Mitose was innocent, or Hanshi feels that way?

I have many times stated, my opinion or thoughts.

I am as confused as anyone else who was not there, do I believe he got a fair trial, probably did, in light of some of the stuff Doc posted. 

Sounds like the guy was a whacko, maybe he was a functioning skitso, I don't have any idea. 

But since he died of complications from diabetes, that explains some of his problems right there.

Regards, Gary


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## BlackCatBonz

well i have to say i agree with john bishop on this one......maybe terry lee is a good martial artist......maybe he did study with mitose for 7 weeks and came away with something, but if mitose was your typical japanese guy, he probably gave terry a few straws to grasp at, and not much more. ive been studying for 8 short years.......maybe in thirty years my skills will be developed enough with what i have learned thus far to demonstrate some sort of mastery......but i doubt if i had 7 weeks of training and ran with it, i would really have anything to go on.
i hope i am  making some kind of sense here.
any thoughts, guys?

shawn


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## BlackCatBonz

oh yeah.....i would also like to mention......and i dont mean this as a slam against other martial artists. but there was a group in canada that was afilliated with hanshi for awhile.....and when i first started studying some of these guys were 4th dan in their own systems.......now fast forward a few years and these guys are affilliated with nimr hassan and they are 10th dans, and have their own kosho ryu organizations not affiliated with skski. this stuff used to really bug me.......but i know what im getting, and ive studied with numerous other teachers to know what i am seeing. 
but its like any organization that gets some hair brained splinter group and goes off on some big tangent........i know some of the other senior teachers here have seen this.
its just my 2 cents as far as teachers or students aligning themselves with something that will get them there faster than good old fashioned training.

shawn


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## Don Roley

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> We had this discussion about Mitose's Seiko Fujita connection on the Kajukenbo Cafe. A representative of Fujita's art wrote in and stated it is absolutely not true, no connection what-so-ever. I'll have to go through the archives to find it when I have time. I do recall this gentlemen being legit and posting his name, position and so forth so we took this information to be valid.



A member of Fujita's art? Fujita did train people in arts other than ninjutsu. One is called a kenpo style and is still practiced not far from where I live. Is that what this person was claiming?

And for years I have been looking and asking this question, is there any proof that Mitose _himself_ claimed to have studied under Fujita? As far as I can tell, all the claims come from Terry Lee and I know of no one that can say with confidence or provide proof that Mitose made the claim. And considering that Lee was willing to kill an elderly couple, I do not think it is too much to suspect that maybe he would sink so low as to lie about something like this.


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## Jeff Boler

Don,

If i'm not mistaken, Fujita's main art was Sato Ryu Kempo.  It is Durbin's theory that Fujita was also a master of Koga Ryu Ninjutsu.  Now in everything else that I have read, Fujita was nothing more than a historian on Ninjutsu, not an actual practitioner.  I have seen nothing to back up the claim that Fujita was a master of Koga Ryu.

According to Durbin, Fujita travelled in an entourage that followed Choki Motobu (apparently an uncle to Mitose).  It's Durbin's theory that Fujita taught Choki Motobu Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, who in turned transferred the knowledge to Mitose.

See an article on this here:  http://kiyojuteryu.org:8084/soke/articles/mitose.shtml

What Hassan retained from Mitose remains to be seen.  I know that Durbin has acted as a historian for that Ryu for many years.  I know that their curriculum contains the arts of Hichojutsu, Hayagakejutsu, Suieijutsu, Koppo, and Karumijutsu.  It seems that Koppo (bone breaking) and Karumijutsu (body lightening) have a higher level of importance in the art.

Also, it has been many years since I have stepped foot in Durbin's dojo, so I can't comment on the current Ninpo (or Nimpo as he spells it) training in Kiyojute Ryu or Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu.  I have ordered a copy of Durbin's book, and will post a review when I have finished it.

It will be interesting to see if Durbin attempts to link Koga Ryu and Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, as he now has a Shodan rank in Hatsumi's system.


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## The Kai

Motubu I don't think was Mitose's uncle

Save your money on the book


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## Jeff Boler

Reading back through Durbin's lineage and history on the subject, I can't find a reference to Motobu being Mitose's uncle.  So, I'm not sure of the total relationship between the two.

It should also be noted that Hassan's art is listed under the Okinawan lineage of Durbin's handbook.  There is no reference as to who Fujita would have studied Koga Ryu Ninjutsu from.  Maybe the book will be a bit more specfic.


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## Don Roley

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> If i'm not mistaken, Fujita's main art was Sato Ryu Kempo.  It is Durbin's theory that Fujita was also a master of Koga Ryu Ninjutsu.  Now in everything else that I have read, Fujita was nothing more than a historian on Ninjutsu, not an actual practitioner.  I have seen nothing to back up the claim that Fujita was a master of Koga Ryu.



He is treated like a practicioner of Koga ryu in Japan. I have bought all of his books that I know of. I have read accounts of him. Some of what he did does not sound like ninjutsu to me, but it is a fact that he gave demonstrations of what is billed as "ninjutsu" in Japan. So, I think it is best to call him a master of Koga ryu.

Oh, and it was not Sato ryu, but a similar name. I will see if I can remember it. But yes, it was a form of kenpo.

The problem I have is finding a succesor to the art. No source in Japan seems to admit that he had one. I am trying to find out if Mitose _actually_ made the claim himself. I do not really trust his word on it even if he did. But if it all comes down to the word of Terry Lee, then I want to know.


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## Jeff Boler

Well the primary source of the information is in fact Lee / Hassan.  Now Durbin has stated in the past that Hassan showed him all of the documentation that Mitose had given him, but it contained no lineages or historical information.  To my knowledge, Mitose never stated that his Koga Ryu Ninjutsu came from Fujita.  This is nothing more than a theory of Durbin's.

I have heard stories about how Parker and Chow Kenpo students visited Mitose, and was un-impressed by his techniques.  The Koga Ha guys claim that this is because he was demonstrating Koppo, not Kempo, and they simply didn't understand it.


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## Karazenpo

Don Roley said:
			
		

> A member of Fujita's art? Fujita did train people in arts other than ninjutsu. One is called a kenpo style and is still practiced not far from where I live. Is that what this person was claiming?
> 
> And for years I have been looking and asking this question, is there any proof that Mitose _himself_ claimed to have studied under Fujita? As far as I can tell, all the claims come from Terry Lee and I know of no one that can say with confidence or provide proof that Mitose made the claim. And considering that Lee was willing to kill an elderly couple, I do not think it is too much to suspect that maybe he would sink so low as to lie about something like this.



Hi Don, I agree. As far as the source I mentioned, again, give me some time and I'll go through the archives at the Cafe and find it and when I do, I'll cut and paste it here. Take care & be safe, "Joe"


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## Karazenpo

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Reading back through Durbin's lineage and history on the subject, I can't find a reference to Motobu being Mitose's uncle.  So, I'm not sure of the total relationship between the two.
> 
> It should also be noted that Hassan's art is listed under the Okinawan lineage of Durbin's handbook.  There is no reference as to who Fujita would have studied Koga Ryu Ninjutsu from.  Maybe the book will be a bit more specfic.



Hi Jeff, the Mitose/Motobu uncle relationship has been heavily disputed over the years and last I knew it had no merit. As far as Koga ryu and Seiko Fujita goes.......well,,,,,,,,,,wait until you start really digging into that one! His story, lineage and background has as many holes in it as Mitose's! Check it out!


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## Jeff Boler

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi Jeff, the Mitose/Motobu uncle relationship has been heavily disputed over the years and last I knew it had no merit. As far as Koga ryu and Seiko Fujita goes.......well,,,,,,,,,,wait until you start really digging into that one! His story, lineage and background has as many holes in it as Mitose's! Check it out!



I've gone back through Durbin's documentation, and he says he received information about the Uncle / Nephew relationship from Robert Trias, if that helps.


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## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> well i have to say i agree with john bishop on this one......maybe terry lee is a good martial artist......maybe he did study with mitose for 7 weeks and came away with something, but if mitose was your typical japanese guy, he probably gave terry a few straws to grasp at, and not much more. ive been studying for 8 short years.......maybe in thirty years my skills will be developed enough with what i have learned thus far to demonstrate some sort of mastery......but i doubt if i had 7 weeks of training and ran with it, i would really have anything to go on.
> i hope i am  making some kind of sense here.
> any thoughts, guys?
> 
> shawn




Hi Shawn, hope all is well. Shawn, when I started really getting into the history of our Hawaiian derived kenpo/kempo thing, there were a lot of surprises. I was warned by by my good friend, Sifu Bruce Corrigan to be careful for i might be disappointed, so I was a little prepared and now, I'm totally prepared!, lol. If you dig you will find that it was not uncommon that some of our forefathers way back when started systems and became highly respected masters with the ability and knowledge to back it up with initial training consisting of the mere fundementals, some were blue belts, some purple belts, still others, 'white' belts. Again, these individuals were not the 'norm' but had the natural ability, determination and drive to self develop and strive by seeking out other instructors to not only evolve themselves but to provide a strong structured system. I really don't think rank and years under one master was such a big thing back in thoose early years as we rever it today as to one's worth or place in the arts. I know the above for fact and these men stand undisputed as to their contributions to the art and their place as street tough s.o.b.'s not to be taken lightly by anyone in today's martial art world! They have their undeniable place in our history. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of Lee/Hassan at all, just trying to give you some insight into what I've experienced when I delved into our history. I would have never believed these things in my earlier years, perhaps, I was a bit naieve then, lol. This why I don't have a problem with Mitose if it is uncovered that he only trained under Nabura Tanamaha in Okinawan Kenpo and never made his black belt either. He took what he learned and started this whole kenpo thing that we are all a part of. I have no problem with that. The problem is to others out there, if this is proved to be undisputed about Mitose's training then be careful about passing judgement on it because you may find the same thing in the history of your lineage and system! Like I stated, if true about Mitose, then believe me, he wasn't the only one! Something to ponder...................


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## wadokai_indo

Don Roley said:
			
		

> A member of Fujita's art? Fujita did train people in arts other than ninjutsu. One is called a kenpo style and is still practiced not far from where I live. Is that what this person was claiming?


I am sorry if I am off topic here..

If I am not mistaken, Iwata Manzo from Shito-ryu received a license in Daien-ryu Jo-Jutsu and Nanban Sato-ryu Kenpo from Fujita sensei.

http://members.cox.net/shitokai/manzoiwata.htm
http://www.shitoryu.org/bios/iwata/iwata.htm

Inoue sensei from Yuishinkai also trained in Daien-ryu.

http://yuishinkai.netfirms.com/Library/Inoue.htm

I am very much interested to know whether these information are correct or not.

Thank you!

Ben Haryo


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## Karazenpo

Don Roley said:
			
		

> A member of Fujita's art? Fujita did train people in arts other than ninjutsu. One is called a kenpo style and is still practiced not far from where I live. Is that what this person was claiming?
> 
> And for years I have been looking and asking this question, is there any proof that Mitose _himself_ claimed to have studied under Fujita? As far as I can tell, all the claims come from Terry Lee and I know of no one that can say with confidence or provide proof that Mitose made the claim. And considering that Lee was willing to kill an elderly couple, I do not think it is too much to suspect that maybe he would sink so low as to lie about something like this.



Found it, Don!

2   General / Martial Arts Talk / Re:Solving a Mitose Mystery (?)  on: June 22, 2004, 11:54:34 AM  
Started by Professor Joe Shuras, Message by Henso 
For factual information on Fujita Seiko and his various arts, my I humbly suggest my site dedicated to his martial arts career, which is collected from independent historical resources: http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com.

In my research I found no evidence that their is or was anyone who learned Fujita's Ninjutsu, and in fact, interviews with him categorically state that he didn't teach the system to anyone. As concerns the matter of Nanban Sato ryu Kenpo-Jutsu, it is not a Kenpo system as is understood currently, but, a grappling system that is related to the famous Seigo ryu, via its branch school, Nanban Ippon ryu.

Please review and comment/critique away. Additionally, any factual information about Fujita that is not present would be appreciated.

Phillip T. Hevener


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## Karazenpo

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> I've gone back through Durbin's documentation, and he says he received information about the Uncle / Nephew relationship from Robert Trias, if that helps.



Jeff, let me get in touch with Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelly. She has access to all her father's notes and his relationship with Mitose and is puting together a book on her father's life. As soon as I find out I'll post it.


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## Jeff Boler

Here it is.  I actually found the text in which Durbin mentions Trias, as well as the family relationship between Motobu and Mitose.



> It is believed that at some point Shorei Ryu Kempo of Okinawa, found it's way into the art. Some feel that during the time that the great Kempo master Choki Motobu lived on Japan, he taught the members of his entourage the skills of Shorei Ryu Kempo. James Masayoshi Mitose, who according to Robert Trias, was a maternal nephew of Motobu was believed to have been a member of that entourage, along with the great Seiko Fujita, a master of both Sato Ryu Kempo and Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. This would have given James Masayoshi Mitose the opportunity to study both arts.


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## John Bishop

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> I've gone back through Durbin's documentation, and he says he received information about the Uncle / Nephew relationship from Robert Trias, if that helps.


I have letters from the late Robert Trias, and Richard Kim.  Both state that there was no family relationship between James Mitose and Choki Motobu.
The rumor was started by Mitose himself, who claimed in the 40's-50's that Motobu was his uncle and teacher.


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## The Kai

Where does his (Durbin'd)Kempo lineage come from?  He did not meet Nimer until much later on


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## Jeff Boler

All of his lineage comes directly from Juko Kai International.  The only real lineage that Durbin has (Mitose wise) is through Hassan.  As stated previously, Durbin has made a point in seeking out the three people directly connected to Mitose, and has received "recognition" from all three.  (Juchnik, Thomas Mitose, and Hassan).

Sacharnoski's lineages mainly come from Seidokan Motobu Ryu, Kenshin Kan Shorin Ryu, and Dai Yoshin Ryu.  (Not withstanding the questions that have risen about these.)

It should also be noted that Durbin claims lineage through Robert Trias of Shuri Ryu, through Bill Wallace.  However, Durbin has never been an "in-dojo" student of Wallace.  His training was strictly performed at various clinics.


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## M.C. Busman

If I remember correctly, Durbin's original kenpo training was under a teacher names R. Stone, a student of Ray Arquilla.  Tracy's, no?  Pre-Rod Sach daze.

Fujita's Koga ninjutsu was not passed down.  He never documented it, but demonstrated stunts he called "Koga ninjutsu".  Funny, Fujita documented and wrote books on everything else he taught.  My opinion based on the writings of Nawa & others is that Koga was his "show" art.  Does anyone out there think stealth ops back in old Japan had any use for glass eating and walking and needle piercing?  These are sensational tricks.  It dies with him, it probably started with him.

On Nimr Hassan (Terry Lee):  Reading the trial transcript makes a number of things very evident.  During his testimony Mitose talks about how he refused to take black students because of a number of stereotypical signs of inferiority.  An exception was made for Hassan.  The transcript leaves no question as to Mitose's admitted racism.  He says he only worked on basic things with Hassan

Hassan stated during his testimony that he realized after all of the events that took place that Mitose was no true master.  He sounded very bitter.  His opinion appears to have changed over time.

Durbin states in one of his articles, "In The City of Brotherly Love..." that Hassan couldn't remember what happened the night of Frank Namimatsu's murder.  Convenient, eh?

On Motobu/Mitose:  Motobu's son has stated Mitose was never a student of his father's.  Nor was the man Trias names as his first teacher, Tong-gee Hsing, a student of Motobu.  The only apparent connection between Motobu and Mitose are the pictures Mitose lifted from another book and printed in his.  Years ago I called Bruce Juchnik to query him on this and was told Mitose referred to Motobu was his _martial art_ uncle, not blood.  


Take Care & Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman


----------



## GAB

Hi,

I have read and talked to quite a few people who state the Japanese took in someone and they refered to them as their family but were not Blood.

It was very common, so when we (western) compare it to our culture it is quite different.

I think what M.C. posts and what Hanshi Juchnik has said makes sense to me.

I called many people uncle, as I was growing up, but they were not blood.
I know people today that are called uncle and are not blood also auntie comes to mind...

It is more common then mister... 

Regards, Gary


----------



## BlackCatBonz

thanks for the reply prof joe.......i understand what you are saying.
i guess it goes to show what blood, sweat and tears will get you. 
i still get a bit perturbed with people that accept these advanced rankings without showing the stuff, i also understand that they might be a pretty decent martial artist, but nowhere near what their rank implies. i have worked really hard, and im still just a shodan, and ive tested my stuff as a doorman in some pretty rough clubs. 
i know this is getting off the subject of the thread......so i will go back by saying, people want to align themselves with anything that will bring them some sort of legitimacy, demonstrate a bit of skill, and hopefully receive some type of advanced rank without putting in the time. and lots of organizations are willing to accept these people simply because they want people all over the map as representatives. 
i dont doubt that bill durbin is a skilled practitioner, and uses his teachings as a vehicle for his religion, but stand on your own merits then, instead of seeking out approval from anyone that might give it to you.

shawn


----------



## Don Roley

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Well the primary source of the information is in fact Lee / Hassan.  Now Durbin has stated in the past that Hassan showed him all of the documentation that Mitose had given him, but it contained no lineages or historical information.  To my knowledge, Mitose never stated that his Koga Ryu Ninjutsu came from Fujita.  This is nothing more than a theory of Durbin's.



Hmmmm. It seems strange that Hassan would have documentation from Mitose on the Koga ryu, but no mention in it of who Mitose learned it from....

Has anyone else seen this documentation? For that matter, can you say with certainty that Hassan was claiming to teach _Koga ryu_ ninjutsu, and not just using the term "ninjutsu" before Durbin came up with his theory?

To be blunt, I do not trust just Durbin's, or Hassan's word on this. Especially after hearing from you that there was supposably documentation without an important element like the previous sokes that maintained the tradition. That is just something outside my experience in these matters.


----------



## The Kai

It's like his claim to learn Shuri-Ryu from Bill Wallace.  Wallace does'nt teach Karate per se, just the streching and kicking drills.

Reading Master Kempo there are hugh leaps of logic that are bound together wi9th the phrase"it is believed".  Then the theory becomes fact in the next sentence!
Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> thanks for the reply prof joe.......i understand what you are saying.
> i guess it goes to show what blood, sweat and tears will get you.
> i still get a bit perturbed with people that accept these advanced rankings without showing the stuff, i also understand that they might be a pretty decent martial artist, but nowhere near what their rank implies. i have worked really hard, and im still just a shodan, and ive tested my stuff as a doorman in some pretty rough clubs.
> i know this is getting off the subject of the thread......so i will go back by saying, people want to align themselves with anything that will bring them some sort of legitimacy, demonstrate a bit of skill, and hopefully receive some type of advanced rank without putting in the time. and lots of organizations are willing to accept these people simply because they want people all over the map as representatives.
> i dont doubt that bill durbin is a skilled practitioner, and uses his teachings as a vehicle for his religion, but stand on your own merits then, instead of seeking out approval from anyone that might give it to you.
> 
> shawn



And thanks for your reply too, Shawn. I also respect the fact that you use your art for real, not to knock anyone that doesn't have that opportunity but it does give you much more crediability as an instructor. I, for one, would love to sit down with you personally to hear your encounters, what you feel works and doesn't work because I know you aren't giving me theory but reality from first hand knowledge. I do that with people whenever I can, even the untrained because these are the guys that will most likely attack you. We learn for each other. I also know what you mean about advanced rank. Shawn, I've been studying for over 31 years and still workout to keep in shape at 52, I'm a 7th dan and I can't tell you how many people I know who haven't put in anything close to what I have and they're 8ths, 9ths and 10ths! I hear ya! but don't let it get you down. It used to bother me but I don't let it get to me anymore because they're just fooling themselves not to mention you can tell they're also 'uncomfortable' wearing their rank around those who really earned theirs. Take care & Be safe "Joe"


----------



## Jeff Boler

The Kai said:
			
		

> It's like his claim to learn Shuri-Ryu from Bill Wallace.  Wallace does'nt teach Karate per se, just the streching and kicking drills.
> 
> Reading Master Kempo there are hugh leaps of logic that are bound together wi9th the phrase"it is believed".  Then the theory becomes fact in the next sentence!
> Todd



Yeah, and I 've always had a problem with the way he handles things like that.  For instance, Juchnik and Thomas Mitose are actually listed on his lineages, even though the only thing they did for him was recognize him as the Soke of his art.  (Which I see no sense in doing.)  So even though he has never trained under them, they are listed.

It should also be noted that only Hassan's Kempo lineage is listed.  There is nothing documenting where Fujita supposedly learned his Ninpo skills from.

Maybe it's in the book....


----------



## The Kai

Nope save your money!  There is very little lineage info, just a alot of theorical history-you gotta love it"if in ancient okinwans practiced a art with both hard and soft movements, they might have called thier style GoJo Kempo.  I practice Kempo ,therefore I claim Miyagi in my lineage 

Todd


----------



## Jeff Boler

The Kai said:
			
		

> I practice Kempo ,therefore I claim Miyagi in my lineage
> 
> Todd



That's not funny, Miyagi does appear in his lineage....


----------



## The Kai

It was'nt supposed to be funny, I was just giving a example of the improbable connections that are made to support his claims.  i am sorry if i rubbed you the wrong way

Todd


----------



## Jeff Boler

No, no, no, nothing like that.  I just thought it was funny that in a jokingly way, you mention being linked to Miyagi, when in fact Durbin does have him listed on his lineages.  Just about every major Okinawan Masters name appears in these lineages.


----------



## The Kai

I will look the book over this weekend, but I am pretty sure that how he traces most of his stuff back(I noticed there is very little physical presence in the sense of my teacher - who was taught by-who was taught by)

Todd


----------



## The Kai

From his website:





		PHP:
	

 In 1970, I began training with Richard Stone, in my hometown of Bardstown, KY. The primary art taught by him was Kodokan Judo, though he taught elements of Aikikai Aikido and Nippon Kempo, as well. I studied with Mr. Stone until the fall of 1971 at which time I went to Campbellsville College. During my time with Mr. Stone I also assisted in teaching. Over the years as a student I returned periodically to my first instructor to gather more knowledge and information from him.

I attended college from 1971 until 1975 graduating with a Bachelor of Arts in Bible, Religious Education, and Psychology. During that time I organized a self defense club with Bob Setser, a Shotokan Karate student, and Bos Bosmer, a fellow Kodokan Judo practitioner. Among the arts I studied at various times over those years were: Shotokan, Kodokan, Isshin Ryu, Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Aikikai, Ninjutsu, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and Shaolin Chunfa. Each semester I offered self defense classes in order to share my knowledge and to learn others arts. During the summers I worked various jobs and after four years at Campbellsville College had taught self defense in Ohio, Michigan, as well as, Kentucky.

While studying religion and philosophy in college, I began to learn about the concepts of Oriental philosophy. I learned about the Chinese Taoist concepts of Yin/Yang, with Yang representing the positive aspects of the universe. From my continued martial arts training I learned about Ki, the divine spirit; the principle of Ju, the gentle, yielding principle of the Japanese martial arts; and, Te the skill of Okinawan self defense, combat arts. Around 1974, while teaching self defense in Michigan, I coined the phrase Ki Yang Ju Te as my personal teaching philosophy for the martial arts.

 
Ayear of formal training, 4 years of informal training, Bam! new style, Ki Yang Ju Te is born.  Judo+japanese kempo= Okinwan Te



> 1980, I was awarded my Shihan in Okinawan Goju Kempo Karate


After ten years of study-where did he learn this art?



> that August, where I was able to demonstrate my skills during classes and at the Masters Demonstration, where I gave a stretching and kicking exhibition, Dr. Sacharnoski awarded my Kaiden, indicating that I was a master of all traditions. In a letter clarifying this, he stated my skills and demonstrative abilities, showed the highest levels, thus earning me Hanshi in both Karate and Jujutsu, along with Shihan Godan ranking in Juko Ryu Aikijujutsu


allthouhg a streching and kicking demo may be good, how do get a Aiki based ranking from that?

Fishy,Fishy
Todd


----------



## M.C. Busman

Another problem with Durbin's lineage/recognition through Rod Sacharnoski, has Sacharnoski's major lineage problems.  Virtually every claim to be recognized by "oriental masters" offers dead ends (or dead mythical masters with no surviving relations or students!).  Don Cunningham has done some serious research on this man...worth looking at.


Take Care,

M.C. Busman


----------



## M.C. Busman

Don Roley wrote: _"Hmmmm. It seems strange that Hassan would have documentation from Mitose on the Koga ryu, but no mention in it of who Mitose learned it from....[....]Has anyone else seen this documentation? For that matter, can you say with certainty that Hassan was claiming to teach Koga ryu ninjutsu, and not just using the term "ninjutsu" before Durbin came up with his theory?[....]To be blunt, I do not trust just Durbin's, or Hassan's word on this. Especially after hearing from you that there was supposably documentation without an important element like the previous sokes that maintained the tradition. That is just something outside my experience in these matters."_

Another question is why lineage to Mitose is so important to some people that they will grab any link, no matter how tenuous.

There is nothing linking James Mitose to Fujita Seiko.  Except of course, Mitose's say-so.  Lee/Hassan says Mitose mentioned the Koga ninjutsu.  Mitose apparently didn't know any more than Andrew Adams and a few other writers offered in English publications.  

In other words, it is as reliable as the tale about the temple monks.  Rather than consider the simple explanation--that it was a lie, some people would rather concoct situations where Mitose could have said what he did and be telling the truth--no matter how round-about it he was.  So we get fringe theories about him being the only one in the temple, etc.  The tales about Fujita--or Motobu--are no different in this regard.  When could Mitose ever have met and studied with these men?  Why no photos or densho?

The simple explanation is that these things did not happen.


Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman


----------



## BlackCatBonz

this is the kind of stuff im talking about.........could you imagine going to a seminar with a few "recognized" masters......doing a few things demonstrating some kind of mastery but not enough to prove it, and then being awarded hachidan or something ridiculous.........without really having any credentials to start with. 

shawn


----------



## GAB

Hi Kai;

From what you posted about Durbin's Ki Yang Ju Te...

I read his thoughts, Ki=Spirit, Yang=Positive, Ju=Gentle, Te=Hand. Are pretty clear.

Did he make up these new systems every 7 or so years..is like, an Economic issue?:idunno: Based on business failures in the US?:ultracool 

Regards, Gary


----------



## Jeff Boler

Well, I read this book over the weekend.  Here are a few thoughts.

Number one:  You can read this book in one sitting.  It's very small.

Number two:  There's no real new information in this book.  Most of this information already exists in articles that Durbin has written on the subject; all of which can be read at his website.

Number three:  One point that he attempts to make is that Koga Ryu schools tend to fall under Zen based Buddhism, whereas the schools of the Iga province tend to fall under Mikkyo based Buddhism.

Number four:  He does mention that Hassan possesses manuals given to him by Mitose that explain his Ninpo skills.  However, no proof is given to validate this claim.

Number five:  No new historical information.  All points lead to Fujita as being the Koga Ryu influence on Mitose.  He continues to maintain that Mitose was the nephew of Motobu, and references Robert Trias as the source of this information.

Number six:  Mentions his dan ranking in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (although he still calls it Bujinkan Togakure Ryu) on several occassions.  I am assuming that this is being used to bolster his claims.

I was turned off by the first sentence in the book;  "I'm a ninjutsu expert, but please don't call me a Ninja."  I'm not sure that his limited experience and research is enough to validate him as an "expert."  It's obvious by his continued use of the name, Togakure Ryu, that he has little to no experience in the Bujinkan arts.  And since the historical information concerning this branch of "Koga" ryu is highly questionable, i'm not sure that this title of Expert will stick.

He seems to think that it should....


----------



## M.C. Busman

Jeff Boler wrote: _"Number four: He does mention that Hassan possesses manuals given to him by Mitose that explain his Ninpo skills. However, no proof is given to validate this claim.'_

_"Number five: No new historical information. All points lead to Fujita as being the Koga Ryu influence on Mitose. He continues to maintain that Mitose was the nephew of Motobu, and references Robert Trias as the source of this information."_

What manuals are these? Was he able to authenticate them, date them, understand them? Or did he just see some notebooks or volumes with Japanese writing on them and become duely impressed?

Fujita Seiko wrote a series of 4 manuals on arts and pratices he knew including sword, shuriken, rope restraints (hojojutsu), and a comparison of vital points. He penned a few other works, but this 4-volume set is the most tchnical in nature. Maybe Mitose read these, or read Fujita's popular autobiography "The Ninja's Disappearence". All Fujita's books were written in Japanese, although twenty yers or so ago Henry Plee of France translated and added to Fujita's Vital Points book. 

On Motobu and Mitose: The issue ended when Motobu's son and heir to his art visited the Hawai'i Karate Museum (Seishin Kai) a few years ago, and said he knew of no relationship netween his father and Mitose as friends or relations of any sort! Even when Motobu was in INS (or whatever the territorial service called it then--I'm working off the top of my head right now w/ out the aid of my library) custody, Mitose's time frame makes it unlikely that he visited Motobu. In addition, the "family crest" Mitose claims goes back no further than him. In Japan, on Okinawa, there is no "Mitose Praying Hands" crest. And according to the Motobu family...there is no Motobu family crest.

There really is no mystery here. It appears Mitose learned about Ninjutsu the same way he learned about kenpo (the possibility that he studied kempo karate under Okinawans in Hawai'i notwithstanding). For Durban and others to give creedence to feel-good myths under the guise of academic research is a true disservice to any person seeking a worthwhile education rooted in fact. 

William Durbin reminds me of the dunderheads who go about interviewing UFO Abduction/anal probe claiments, who then insists that Alien abductions/probes _really happen_ because of the convincing testimonies the claiments offer. With no evidence at hand, all they can offer is "I Believe". True Believers of this ilk base their "findings" on emotions, not facts.

lamentable, ah well.


Best to All,

M.C. Busman


----------



## BlackCatBonz

well M.C. 
the only time i have ever heard about mitose and ninjutsu is from durbins's writings, nimr hassan's writings, and people from those camps. 
i still stand by this though......IF mitose made up all the stuff he taught, with very little input from "real" teachers.....then he must have been one heck of a martial artist.
but what i think is neither here nor there. 
people like durbin and hassan will always be around trying to get credit without the work, and gaining a healthy following in the process; all the while perpetuating a phony story for their own self-aggrandisement.

shawn


----------



## Don Roley

M.C. Busman said:
			
		

> There is nothing linking James Mitose to Fujita Seiko.  Except of course, Mitose's say-so.



Sorry to sound like a broken record, but shouldn't that be "nothing but Terry Lee's say so, supported by Wilaim Durbin"?

I really, really do not see anything other than Terry Lee's word that Mitose made claims of knowing ninjutsu. And I do not trust the word of a guy who would murder two elderly people. Are you guys sitting on some sort of comment by Mitose that you just won't share with me? Because, while the more I hear about Mitose the less I think of him, I really do not see anything that makes me believe that the story of Lee learning ninjutsu is anything other than just a story by Lee.


----------



## The Kai

Most of the information gets a little "sketchy" when you try to substantiate any before mitose

Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Sorry to sound like a broken record, but shouldn't that be "nothing but Terry Lee's say so, supported by Wilaim Durbin"?
> 
> I really, really do not see anything other than Terry Lee's word that Mitose made claims of knowing ninjutsu. And I do not trust the word of a guy who would murder two elderly people. Are you guys sitting on some sort of comment by Mitose that you just won't share with me? Because, while the more I hear about Mitose the less I think of him, I really do not see anything that makes me believe that the story of Lee learning ninjutsu is anything other than just a story by Lee.



Amen.


----------



## Jeff Boler

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Sorry to sound like a broken record, but shouldn't that be "nothing but Terry Lee's say so, supported by Wilaim Durbin"?



Actually, it's the other way around.  Durbin writes most of the history for Hassan.  I think Hassan has simply bought in to Durbin's theories.



> I really, really do not see anything other than Terry Lee's word that Mitose made claims of knowing ninjutsu. And I do not trust the word of a guy who would murder two elderly people. Are you guys sitting on some sort of comment by Mitose that you just won't share with me? Because, while the more I hear about Mitose the less I think of him, I really do not see anything that makes me believe that the story of Lee learning ninjutsu is anything other than just a story by Lee.



I think you are right.  Now I don't know what type of documentation that Hassan has, but it would be the only thing that would say one way or the other.  He is the only person that I know of that has ever said anything about Mitose knowning Ninjutsu, even though Durbin claims that Robert Trias made that comment.

This book really needs to be reviewed by Don, or someone who understands Ninpo.  I would love your opinion on it.


----------



## The Kai

Durbin met Mr Trias?  Was the comment in answer to a specific question?

I doubt that these two ever met, much less had a conversation.

Durbin has a history of inventing history


----------



## Jeff Boler

The Kai said:
			
		

> Durbin met Mr Trias?  Was the comment in answer to a specific question?
> 
> I doubt that these two ever met, much less had a conversation.
> 
> Durbin has a history of inventing history



I don't think they did. Durbin uses the phrase, "According to Robert Trias..."  he never really reveals the source of this information.  Regardless, I doubt Mr. Trias has any knowledge of Koga Ryu anything from Mitose, or anyone else for that matter.


----------



## M.C. Busman

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Sorry to sound like a broken record, but shouldn't that be "nothing but Terry Lee's say so, supported by Wilaim Durbin"?
> 
> I really, really do not see anything other than Terry Lee's word that Mitose made claims of knowing ninjutsu. And I do not trust the word of a guy who would murder two elderly people. Are you guys sitting on some sort of comment by Mitose that you just won't share with me? Because, while the more I hear about Mitose the less I think of him, I really do not see anything that makes me believe that the story of Lee learning ninjutsu is anything other than just a story by Lee.


If my memory serves me fair, Mitose mentioned koga ninjutsu in the court transcript. I'll double check sometime this week. Apparently the certificate Mitose signed for Terry Lee also said something about Koga Ryu. Michael Brown could clarify. 

Lee/Hassan's testimony about Mitose was definately not complimentary. Not unexpected considering some of Mitose's statements about Black folks under oath though.  Amazing how much time can change.

Happiness,

M.C. Busman


----------



## gavarn

I find it interesting the things I find on this site about Nimr Hassan. For the record he started training with Mitose in 1973 and in 1974 opened a Dojo with him in La. I wonder why no one ever ask him or even makes an effort to speak with the man. You all go on information about the man and he is here and very accessable.


----------



## RRouuselot

Templar said:
			
		

> I noticed on E-Budo that Dr. William Durbin, Soke of Kiyojute Ryu Kempo has written a book on Koga Ryu Ninjutsu.
> 
> http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1153
> 
> There are some interesting articles on Mr. Durbin's site pertaining to Kempo, and it supposed links to Koga Ryu. You can view Mr. Durbin's site here.
> 
> http://www.kiyojuteryu.org
> 
> Now without starting a flame war, I would like to hear some response on Mr. Durbin's work, especially when it comes to Mitose and Ninjutsu. Apparently, Durbin has studied the method through Nimr Hassan, Mitose's one and only student during the time of the trial. He claims that Mitose actually learned the art through Seiko Fujita, who was apart of the entourage that followed Choki Motobu around Japan.
> 
> Any thoughts?


   Well lets consider who one of Durbins buds is..the infamous "Dr." Rod Sacharnoski.

   Lets also not forget that they are both part of the World Soke Council or some such mutual Soke ranking society. In my opinion both men are dishonest in their presentation of their ranks and qualifications to say the least.


----------



## Jeff Boler

gavarn said:
			
		

> I find it interesting the things I find on this site about Nimr Hassan. For the record he started training with Mitose in 1973 and in 1974 opened a Dojo with him in La. I wonder why no one ever ask him or even makes an effort to speak with the man. You all go on information about the man and he is here and very accessable.



Ok, i'll bite.  From your perspective, how much training did Hassan actually spend with Mitose?

And...you do admit the truth behind the murder?


----------



## The Kai

Be carefull any history that William Dubin had a hand in writing is really nothing more that a  attempt to bolster his own fanciful claims


----------



## koga ha

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Ok, i'll bite. From your perspective, how much training did Hassan actually spend with Mitose?
> 
> And...you do admit the truth behind the murder?


jeff, how long did you train with mitose...hum?  it would seem to me that we should question your training, but we don't.


----------



## Jeff Boler

koga ha said:
			
		

> jeff, how long did you train with mitose...hum?  it would seem to me that we should question your training, but we don't.



This is a rediculous arguement, as i'm not the one claiming to have been taught by Mitose.  If this is the best response that you can come up with, then your screwed.

On top of that, I'm not all that impressed in what I have seen about Mitose.  I think all of the claims of him being some great master are highly suspect.


----------



## koga ha

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> This is a rediculous arguement, as i'm not the one claiming to have been taught by Mitose. If this is the best response that you can come up with, then your screwed.
> 
> On top of that, I'm not all that impressed in what I have seen about Mitose. I think all of the claims of him being some great master are highly suspect.


i'm not trying to argue with you; just asked a question.  

well, everyone has an opinion...take a look at this site!


----------



## The Kai

Without answering the question asked of you!!

Since hassan is claiming to have learned this unheard of art from his short time with Mitose-how much did he learn???  Alsoo where was the Dojo??


----------



## John Bishop

Terry Lee (now known as Nimr Hasan) has already answered the questions of his training with James Mitose.  There are over 225 pages of his sworn testimony  during the trial of James Mitose in Los Angeles Superior Court.

Here are a few excerpts from the transcript:



Mr. Ito (L.A.D.A.) :  When did you approximately meet him (Mitose)?

Mr. Lee:  January of this year, 1974.

Mr. Ito:  And where did you meet Mr. James Mitose?

Mr. Lee:  At a karate school run by a Mr. Robert Moore, on Beverly and Serrano.

Mr. Ito:  Were you taking lessons, or were you in some way associated with Mr. Moores karate studio?

Mr. Lee: Yes, at the time I was the national tournament director of the Universal Karate Association.


Later in the testimony,
Mr. Ito:  And Mitose would teach you these fundamental skills?

Mr. Lee:  Yes he did.

Mr. Ito:  Were you impressed by the way he taught you?

Mr. Lee:  I was impressed by the difference of the fundamentals, the approach, the movement.  But it was still basic, the blows were still basic, the kicks were basic.  There was nothing of a high degree shown.

Mr. Ito:  How long did this relationship and this practice between you and him (Mitose) continue?

Mr. Lee:  Until my arrest on April the 3rd, 1974.


----------



## The Kai

January to April, 4 whole months of training


----------



## John Bishop

The Kai said:
			
		

> January to April, 4 whole months of training


Actually, 3 months at the very most.  Since the training didn't start when they first met in January.  And it ended April 3rd.


----------



## koga ha

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Terry Lee (now known as Nimr Hasan) has already answered the questions of his training with James Mitose. There are over 225 pages of his sworn testimony during the trial of James Mitose in Los Angeles Superior Court.
> 
> Here are a few excerpts from the transcript:
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Ito (L.A.D.A.) : When did you approximately meet him (Mitose)?
> 
> Mr. Lee: January of this year, 1974.
> 
> Mr. Ito: And where did you meet Mr. James Mitose?
> 
> Mr. Lee: At a karate school run by a Mr. Robert Moore, on Beverly and Serrano.
> 
> Mr. Ito: Were you taking lessons, or were you in some way associated with Mr. Moores karate studio?
> 
> Mr. Lee: Yes, at the time I was the national tournament director of the Universal Karate Association.
> 
> 
> Later in the testimony,
> Mr. Ito: And Mitose would teach you these fundamental skills?
> 
> Mr. Lee: Yes he did.
> 
> Mr. Ito: Were you impressed by the way he taught you?
> 
> Mr. Lee: I was impressed by the difference of the fundamentals, the approach, the movement. But it was still basic, the blows were still basic, the kicks were basic. There was nothing of a high degree shown.
> 
> Mr. Ito: How long did this relationship and this practice between you and him (Mitose) continue?
> 
> Mr. Lee: Until my arrest on April the 3rd, 1974.


could you scan the actual document, highlighting where it says this and pm it to me? 

i would like to thank you in advance.


----------



## gavarn

Ok the name is Nimr Hassan 



			
				GAB said:
			
		

> I like his (durbin)Mon, I do believe he should have added the octagon though.
> 
> Kai...The word is convoluted. I posted it in the other post also.
> It would be appropriate here also...
> Hassan, (hassan) when he is using that term, has anyone talked to him to find out, if it is from the meaning of western thought, or eastern thought, have in mind?
> 
> The Eastern or Arab world, say, it is not to be confused with the way we the Western people think.
> 
> Western thought, Hassan... is connected to the Assassains, Eastern feel it is the keeper of the true meaning of the way. His full name in Western thought interpreted is... Nimer=Panther... Hassan= Assassain. Or Arab would be, Panther+ Keeper of the way or Gatekeeper, or maybe the Gate protector.
> 
> What do you think???
> 
> Regards, Gary


----------



## KenpoPastor

It seems to me that we enjoy arguing our points more than sharing knowledge, all the "hot" forums have a point of contention like this one.

A lot of legends in martial arts and in Kenpo, especially surrounding Mitose.  The legends available so far:
1. Mitose the con man learned some basic Okinowan Te and passing it off as his family made some modifications and improvements.
2. Mitose the honarable 21st Great Grandmaster of his family's secret art that originated in a Buddhist temple in Japan around 1200 AD.
3. Mitose the super spy who was taught Okinowan Te by Motubu or one of his students and combined it with Ninjitsu taught by Seiko.
4. Or a random combination of the above legends.

I don't know what the truth is and honestly, I don't care either.  All I know is that Mitose taught some people an effective Self-Defense and his students and Grand-students continue to innovate and teach some effective martial arts.

_Don


----------



## KenpoPastor

Let me just add that I would rather learn something new about kenpo than argue about Mitose.  At this point, what's the point of arguing it without conclusive evidence of his lineage - the kind that people promise to show but never do.  Let's be honest even if such evidence did surface most of us would go on believing what we want to anyway.
_don


----------



## The Kai

The problem is when people claim authority based of a make believe lineage!!


----------



## Jeff Boler

Well, I do know what the truth is.  The truth is that Terry Lee (aka Nimr Hassan) was convicted of murder, and Mitose himself was convicted of conspiracy.

In my view, that's all I need to know.

It matters because there are people going out of their way to "align" themselves with Mitose.  Durbin, for instance, went out and basically "took in" Hassan, with the intentions of bolstering his own claims.  Why?  Because he has already requested that Thomas Mitose and Bruce Juchnik recognize him as the Soke of his own self-created Ryu.  Now with Hassan in the mix, Durbin claims to be the only person with lineages to all three people.

That's quite deceptive, being that he hasn't learned a thing from Mitose or Juchnick.  So when people like this quite making claims like this, I'll quit discussing it.  Until then, somebody needs to stay around and stick to the truth.


----------



## KenpoPastor

The Kai said:
			
		

> The problem is when people claim authority based of a make believe lineage!!


This is true but I think when their lineage claim has been superceeded by their own actions.
Example:  Few people question Ed Parker's legitimacy as a Master despite when he bagan his school he was only a brown belt under chow and this is because he was proven to be the real deal by the quality of his martial art skill and that of his students.

I think in regards to this we must give Mitose legitimacy simply because of the undeniable skill and abilities of his students.  Whether we want to admit it or not we all owe our arts to him.  I just think it's useless to argue his lineage because of the lack of evidence and I think his character or lack of and personal failures have little bearing to the legitimacy of his art although they could cause one to doubt his claims.

Concerning Durbin's claims and theories it's definitely fishy.  I think the multitude of previous posts to that effect have proven it.  The need for further testimony to that effect is akin to the need to beat a dead horse.

_don


----------



## John Bishop

koga ha said:
			
		

> could you scan the actual document, highlighting where it says this and pm it to me?
> 
> i would like to thank you in advance.


Like I stated, this is just some of the 225+ pages of Terry Lee's testimony. The whole trial transcript is 3140 pages. 
It is a public record, and availiable from the Los Angeles County, Ca. Superior Court.  Duplicating costs for 3140 pages are very high. 
But the transcript has also been converted to PDF form on CD rom, and is availaible for purchase from many sources.  Since it is public record, there is no copyright on it.
Just doing a quick Ebay search of "Mitose" should give you a opportunity to purchase the whole transcript.


----------



## koga ha

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Like I stated, this is just some of the 225+ pages of Terry Lee's testimony. The whole trial transcript is 3140 pages.
> It is a public record, and availiable from the Los Angeles County, Ca. Superior Court. Duplicating costs for 3140 pages are very high.
> But the transcript has also been converted to PDF form on CD rom, and is availaible for purchase from many sources. Since it is public record, there is no copyright on it.
> Just doing a quick Ebay search of "Mitose" should give you a opportunity to purchase the whole transcript.


I thought you had something in your possession that you were quoting from.  Thank you for the purchasing information.


----------



## The Kai

KenpoPastor said:
			
		

> This is true but I think when their lineage claim has been superceeded by their own actions.
> Example: Few people question Ed Parker's legitimacy as a Master despite when he bagan his school he was only a brown belt under chow and this is because he was proven to be the real deal by the quality of his martial art skill and that of his students.
> 
> I think in regards to this we must give Mitose legitimacy simply because of the undeniable skill and abilities of his students. Whether we want to admit it or not we all owe our arts to him. I just think it's useless to argue his lineage because of the lack of evidence and I think his character or lack of and personal failures have little bearing to the legitimacy of his art although they could cause one to doubt his claims.
> 
> Concerning Durbin's claims and theories it's definitely fishy. I think the multitude of previous posts to that effect have proven it. The need for further testimony to that effect is akin to the need to beat a dead horse.
> 
> _don


1.) Parker was'nt a black belt when he open his school??
2.) Mitoses legimiticy is based more on the students that were produced from the Chow lineage


----------



## KenpoPastor

The Kai said:
			
		

> 1.) Parker was'nt a black belt when he open his school??


As far as I know he was a Brown Belt when he left Hawaii, some say he got his Shodan mysteriously on the plane ride to the main land.  I'm not knocking the guy as far as I'm concerned he was proven by his fruit.  Bruce Lee was the equivalent of a Green Belt in Wing Chun when he developed Jeet Kune Do, same thought applies to him.  Nobody can deny the positive affect these men have had on the martial arts.


			
				The Kai said:
			
		

> 2.) Mitoses legimiticy is based more on the students that were produced from the Chow lineage


Agreed, of his earlier students Chow appears to be the most active in developing the martial art he was shown by Mitose.  From what I've heard Chow was an exceptional martial artist and he was obviously a great innovator of the art but the Foundation that he built on came from Mitose.  My point about Mitose is that Chow and many others have used his art as a foundation for their own arts.  It's interesting how many people declare their own system from Kenpo.  While I'm sure there are many scammers and skeemers in the mix but the soil of Kenpo must be very fruitful to have so many trees.


----------



## John Bishop

koga ha said:
			
		

> I thought you had something in your possession that you were quoting from. Thank you for the purchasing information.


I have gone to the LA Superior Court Clerks Office and read the actual transcript, before it was made availiable on DVD. 
I do have a DVD of the complete trial transcript.  
I have a copy of the  Sentencing Report and Recommendation, done by the L.A. Probation Department. 
I have a copy of "Summary of the Crime" done by the California Department of Corrections.  
So yes, I was quoting from the actual trial transcript, which I have in my possession.


----------



## koga ha

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I have gone to the LA Superior Court Clerks Office and read the actual transcript, before it was made availiable on DVD.
> I do have a DVD of the complete trial transcript.
> I have a copy of the Sentencing Report and Recommendation, done by the L.A. Probation Department.
> I have a copy of "Summary of the Crime" done by the California Department of Corrections.
> So yes, I was quoting from the actual trial transcript, which I have in my possession.


oh, than could you pull off the part on your dvd that was mentioned earlier and pm me?  i would like to see.


----------



## The Kai

KenpoPastor said:
			
		

> As far as I know he was a Brown Belt when he left Hawaii, some say he got his Shodan mysteriously on the plane ride to the main land. I'm not knocking the guy as far as I'm concerned he was proven by his fruit. Bruce Lee was the equivalent of a Green Belt in Wing Chun when he developed Jeet Kune Do, same thought applies to him. Nobody can deny the positive affect these men have had on the martial arts.
> 
> Agreed, of his earlier students Chow appears to be the most active in developing the martial art he was shown by Mitose. From what I've heard Chow was an exceptional martial artist and he was obviously a great innovator of the art but the Foundation that he built on came from Mitose. My point about Mitose is that Chow and many others have used his art as a foundation for their own arts. It's interesting how many people declare their own system from Kenpo. While I'm sure there are many scammers and skeemers in the mix but the soil of Kenpo must be very fruitful to have so many trees.


Yes, to be honest that is a rumor I've heard about Ed Parker.  However it seems to be a rumor

If you look at the majority of Kenpo based systems today they all trace thier physical movements back to Chow.  All seem to have the same trademarks or signatures when it comes to tactics.  To say Mitose was the foundation is like saying if I lay one block in the building of your basement I now own your house


----------



## John Bishop

koga ha said:
			
		

> oh, than could you pull off the part on your dvd that was mentioned earlier and pm me? i would like to see.


Let me see what I can do.  In the past I have tried to cut and paste from PDF files, but it didn't work.  I'll see if I can print select pages, and then scan them for email attachments.  I'm not real familiar working with the PDF format and the Adobe Acrobat program.


----------



## koga ha

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Let me see what I can do. In the past I have tried to cut and paste from PDF files, but it didn't work. I'll see if I can print select pages, and then scan them for email attachments. I'm not real familiar working with the PDF format and the Adobe Acrobat program.


thank you.


----------



## KenpoPastor

The Kai said:
			
		

> Yes, to be honest that is a rumor I've heard about Ed Parker.  However it seems to be a rumor
> 
> If you look at the majority of Kenpo based systems today they all trace thier physical movements back to Chow.  All seem to have the same trademarks or signatures when it comes to tactics.  To say Mitose was the foundation is like saying if I lay one block in the building of your basement I now own your house



I don't know about the owning the house analogy but I will say if that one stone is the cornerstone of the house the entire structure would be built upon it.

_don


----------



## The Kai

That is why I did'nt use the word cornerstone.

Kenpo by and large is draw from Chow's teachings


----------



## Matt

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Let me see what I can do.  In the past I have tried to cut and paste from PDF files, but it didn't work.  I'll see if I can print select pages, and then scan them for email attachments.  I'm not real familiar working with the PDF format and the Adobe Acrobat program.



If it's the transcript and you tell me what pages you want, I can put up individual .pdf files of a given page or two with no problem. Save some paper. 

Matt


----------



## John Bishop

Matt said:
			
		

> If it's the transcript and you tell me what pages you want, I can put up individual .pdf files of a given page or two with no problem. Save some paper.
> 
> Matt


Matt:
It would be page 1333 on the CD, which is page 1288 of the trial transcript.  That page has Terry Lee's statement of when he met Mitose.

Page 1351 on the CD, which is page 1306 of the trial transcript, has Lee's statement about when their relationship ended.


----------



## KenpoPastor

The Kai said:
			
		

> That is why I did'nt use the word cornerstone.
> 
> Kenpo by and large is draw from Chow's teachings



I guess I would need to be more educated about all of the styles of Kenpo because from what I've read of Mitose's 1st book and what I hear about his second, what I'm learning is from him.  Though if that were the case it seems strange to me that Chow was Mitose's student for so long and if what we call Kenpo stems from him or the chinese art he learned from his father why did he persist in calling it Kenpo as Mitose did, why not even the Chinese word Chuan Fa or some kind of Kung fu.  These are the things that stick out to me if what your saying is accurate.

_don


----------



## The Kai

Well if you look at the firts book, it really does'nt resemble the physical techniques of kenpo today

the 2nd book really does'nt do much
How long was Chow association with Mitose, who taught most of the classes.
Chow did try different names-however, I suspect he went with the best known name in the end


----------



## Doc

KenpoPastor said:
			
		

> ... it seems strange to me that Chow was Mitose's student for so long and if what we call Kenpo stems from him or the chinese art he learned from his father why did he persist in calling it Kenpo as Mitose did, ...


Ken/mpo at the time sir was essentially a generic term used outside of China, (primarily by the Japanese & Okinawan) to denote interpetations of fighting arts of Chinese origin, and the Japanese and their arts were dominant in Hawaii at the time. As an example, in China you might say Chaun Fa/Chuan Shu whereas in Japan you would say "Kempo." The Japanese version of the same was "Jiu-jitsu." The term "jiu-jitsu" was used to denote the difference from Japans many "way" or "do" arts from its warrior fighting arts. This explains the origin of the term "Kempo-Jiu-jitsu." It was akin to saying "Look at the Chinese Version of Japanese fighting." and not a specifc art or style.

With regard to Mr. Parker's rank. The rumor stems from the fact he began teaching as a brown belt as a student at BYU, so that part is correct. Mr. Parker left school to enter the military as a brown belt, continued to study and was awarded his black while stationed in Hawaii. When he completed his tenure in the service, he returned to BYU to finish his education now as a black belt and ultimately promoted his first student there to black as well.

If you acknowledge Ed Parker's contribution to "Kenpo" then his words must also carry considerable weight with regards to where he drew his inspiration and knowledge. According to Mr. Parker, (and from what I witnessed myself), Mitose was horrible. Parker stated, "Mitose was awful and showed me nothing, but Chow was very impressive." Parker acknowledged to the extent he took knowledge from his previous training, it was all Chow before he began studying with Chinese Masters on the mainland. He felt Mitose was a crook and a con artist, (something that history has shown to be correct), and a terrible martial artist and he (Parker) had no respect for him as a person or otherwise. He often stated, "That was Chow's relationship, not mine."


----------



## The Kai

Oh Sure like you were there, or something (kidding)

Written words
Pictoral references
Eye witness

But still no proof


----------



## Doc

The Kai said:
			
		

> Oh Sure like you were there, or something (kidding)
> 
> Written words
> Pictoral references
> Eye witness
> 
> But still no proof


Hey, lets get one thing straight. When God said, "Let there be light." who do you think flipped the switch?


----------



## Matt

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Matt:
> It would be page 1333 on the CD, which is page 1288 of the trial transcript.  That page has Terry Lee's statement of when he met Mitose.
> 
> Page 1351 on the CD, which is page 1306 of the trial transcript, has Lee's statement about when their relationship ended.



Your wish is my command. Well not really, but here they are. 

Okay, they can now be viewed here for page 1288 

and here for page 1306.

Matt


----------



## Henso

As concerns a link between Mitose and Fujita, Ninjutsu, Nanban Satto Ryu Kenpo, or anything else, I would have to agree with Don that there is neither evidence of a connection, nor evidence that Mitose himself actaully made this claim. I have done extensive information into the career of Fujita Seiko, and even established a relationship through both research and practice with Fujita's inheritors, via the line of Iwata Manzo, Fujita's uchi-deshi.

In the course of my research I never found a single mention of Mitose in Fujita's works, or the recollections of his acknowledged students. I have personally had the honour of being the uke of, and interviewing Murayama Kunio, Iwata Manzo's uchi-deshi from 1968-1970, and he had no knowledge of the Mitose claims, which is interesting, as the other stories Iwata Manzo told him, match the statements of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and Fujita's obituary, which I have posted on my research site, http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com. 

This obituary was passed onto me by Sam Moldezki, a senior student of Murayama Kunio and Iwata Genzo, Iwata Manzo's son. The original of the obituary is in Iwata Genzo's possession, as it was cut out by Iwata Manzo to commemorate his teacher's funeral. Iwata Genzo inherited all of Fujita's living arts(Wada-Ha Koga Ryu is not among them) when his father, Iwata Manzo died in 1993. This fact is attested to by The Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, at which both Iwata's demonstrated Nanban Satto Ryu Kenpo during the 1990's. 

Lastly, having had the good fortune to be uke at four separate Nanban Satto Ryu seminars, I can say that the skills shown in Mitose's books look nothing like them. Satto Ryu is a system that contains Kansetsu Waza (locks) Nage Waza (throws) and Atemi Waza (pressure point attacks) and is related to Nanban Ippon Ryu. The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten (pg 662) lists the lineage as follows: Hashimoto Ippusai (1)-Hashimoto Ippusai (2)-Fujita Seiko (1919)-Iwata Manzo (1948) The Nihon Kobudo Taikai: All of the above, plus Iwata Genzo (1993)


----------



## KenpoPastor

Doc said:
			
		

> With regard to Mr. Parker's rank. The rumor stems from the fact he began teaching as a brown belt as a student at BYU, so that part is correct. Mr. Parker left school to enter the military as a brown belt, continued to study and was awarded his black while stationed in Hawaii. When he completed his tenure in the service, he returned to BYU to finish his education now as a black belt and ultimately promoted his first student there to black as well.



Doc, thank you for clarifying the stry.



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> If you acknowledge Ed Parker's contribution to "Kenpo" then his words must also carry considerable weight with regards to where he drew his inspiration and knowledge. According to Mr. Parker, (and from what I witnessed myself), Mitose was horrible. Parker stated, "Mitose was awful and showed me nothing, but Chow was very impressive." Parker acknowledged to the extent he took knowledge from his previous training, it was all Chow before he began studying with Chinese Masters on the mainland. He felt Mitose was a crook and a con artist, (something that history has shown to be correct), and a terrible martial artist and he (Parker) had no respect for him as a person or otherwise. He often stated, "That was Chow's relationship, not mine."


The story of Mitose's "unimpressive" demonstration to a class of Parker's blackbelts is infamous.  I've heard both sides.  Those that disagree with your point of view claim that Mitose was demonstrating something that you didn't understand.  Doc, since you were there.  Could you clear the air?  What did you see in detail?  What was Mitose attempting to do?  Why did you feel it was "horrible"?
I ask these things without any agenda to make or prove my point but from a genuine interest to understand.  Thanks.
_don


----------



## KenpoPastor

The Kai said:
			
		

> Well if you look at the firts book, it really does'nt resemble the physical techniques of kenpo today



It does look like what I'm learning.  I will say it's introductory and seems to be written for the masses not for Masters.  But I can clearly see the foundation of what I'm learning.  What do you feel is missing, like I said before I'm not too knowledgable about other branches of Kenpo?



			
				The Kai said:
			
		

> the 2nd book really does'nt do much



Haven't read it yet.  Can't find it.  I think you told me I could borrow yours if you find it.



			
				The Kai said:
			
		

> How long was Chow association with Mitose,



As student-teacher,  Mitose taught from 1942-1946.  If Chow was there from the begining that would be about 4 years.  Judging from the first book Chow was one of his senior students but was not the top student, that would be Thomas Young (1st guy promoted to shodan), who he gave the school to.



			
				The Kai said:
			
		

> who taught most of the classes.



Mitose.  Although Chow was promoted to Shodan by Young, authorized by Mitose.  I've heard the claim that Chow was the real teacher (by Kara Ho)and Mitose was the businessman but these claims are not supported by the facts of the time.  If you look in the first book.  Young is always the Uke for Mitose and Chow was the Uke for young - tradition is the senior rank is always Tori.  I do know eventually (after Mitose was gone) Chow was teaching many classes - this is where he got the student base to eventually go off on his own.  Yet- even when on his own, he began teaching still under the umbrella of Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu.



			
				The Kai said:
			
		

> Chow did try different names-however, I suspect he went with the best known name in the end



Strange, I would think if he wanted the best known name he would have chosen to be assosciated with the term Karate as Mr. Parker did originally.

_don


----------



## The Kai

KenpoPastor said:
			
		

> It does look like what I'm learning. I will say it's introductory and seems to be written for the masses not for Masters. But I can clearly see the foundation of what I'm learning. What do you feel is missing, like I said before I'm not too knowledgable about other branches of Kenpo?
> 
> 
> 
> The first book shows a strong okinwan influence/flavor. Most Kenpo will either be more "Chinese" or flowing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't read it yet. Can't find it. I think you told me I could borrow yours if you find it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Still keeping my eye open for it, sorry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As student-teacher, Mitose taught from 1942-1946. If Chow was there from the begining that would be about 4 years. Judging from the first book Chow was one of his senior students but was not the top student, that would be Thomas Young (1st guy promoted to shodan), who he gave the school to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure by that time I think Chow was on his own anyhow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mitose. Although Chow was promoted to Shodan by Young, authorized by Mitose. I've heard the claim that Chow was the real teacher (by Kara Ho)and Mitose was the businessman but these claims are not supported by the facts of the time. If you look in the first book. Young is always the Uke for Mitose and Chow was the Uke for young - tradition is the senior rank is always Tori. I do know eventually (after Mitose was gone) Chow was teaching many classes - this is where he got the student base to eventually go off on his own. Yet- even when on his own, he began teaching still under the umbrella of Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since Ed Parker, Sijo Emperado, GM Kuona (sp??), GM Castro, GM Chum all credit Chow, while being a little dismissive of Mitose. Who would you think was the teacher
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strange, I would think if he wanted the best known name he would have chosen to be assosciated with the term Karate as Mr. Parker did originally.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe Chow felt he had as much right, hell maybe he was honoring Mitose who knows
Click to expand...


----------



## Doc

KenpoPastor said:
			
		

> Doc, thank you for clarifying the stry.
> 
> 
> The story of Mitose's "unimpressive" demonstration to a class of Parker's blackbelts is infamous.  I've heard both sides.  Those that disagree with your point of view claim that Mitose was demonstrating something that you didn't understand.  Doc, since you were there.  Could you clear the air?  What did you see in detail?  What was Mitose attempting to do?  Why did you feel it was "horrible"?
> I ask these things without any agenda to make or prove my point but from a genuine interest to understand.  Thanks.
> _don


I had never met Mitose, only heard of how bad he was from Parker in passing. He never made a point to talk about him unless you asked. The short version is Mitose came into the Pasadena school wearng his usual priest collar and a hugh crucifix around his neck on a chain. Plenty of "bling bling." He offered Parker a piece of a "con" he was working on starting a church and Parker declined. Mitose hung around for awhile and offered to show a "secret" technique. Someone did a slow step through punch and Mitose dropped to one knee and did a punch down toward the forward foot. Everybody looked around at each other and Parker schrugged his shoulders and went back into the office. Mitose stood up beaming as if he had shared some "secret" that impressed everyone. All I could think of was, "It's a good thing he didn't follow that punch with a front kick.

You ever watch a guys talk about the arts and you could tell from his body language he was a phoney? What I was told by Parker not withstanding, that was my impression of Mitose. A guy who did just enough to fool people who didn't know any better.


----------



## Doc

Templar said:
			
		

> I noticed on E-Budo that Dr. William Durbin, Soke of Kiyojute Ryu Kempo has written a book on Koga Ryu Ninjutsu.
> 
> http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1153
> 
> There are some interesting articles on Mr. Durbin's site pertaining to Kempo, and it supposed links to Koga Ryu.  You can view Mr. Durbin's site here.
> 
> http://www.kiyojuteryu.org
> 
> Now without starting a flame war, I would like to hear some response on Mr. Durbin's work, especially when it comes to Mitose and Ninjutsu.  Apparently, Durbin has studied the method through Nimr Hassan, Mitose's one and only student during the time of the trial.  He claims that Mitose actually learned the art through Seiko Fujita, who was apart of the entourage that followed Choki Motobu around Japan.
> 
> Any thoughts?


I'm speechless.


----------



## Henso

I recently published the above work about the career of Fujita Seiko, which contains a chapter about one of Fujita's arts, Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo and the supposed Fujita -Mitose connection. http://www.amazon.com/Fujita-Seiko-...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214786076&sr=1-1 During the course of my research, I found no evidence to support a link between Fujita and Mitose, and noted that those who support this claim, had factual errors in their proofs, including the mistake of combining the names of Wada-ha Koga-ryu Ninjutsu and Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo, to arrive at the name of a non-existent art, "Koga-ha Satto-ryu," which makes no sense in Japanese.

My work contains a bibliography of 39 books, which include the works of Fujita and Mitose, amongst others. There are also 143 endnotes that meticulously substantiate my conclusions.

Regards,

Phillip T Hevener


----------



## Doc

Henso said:


> I recently published the above work about the career of Fujita Seiko, which contains a chapter about one of Fujita's arts, Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo and the supposed Fujita -Mitose connection. http://www.amazon.com/Fujita-Seiko-...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214786076&sr=1-1 During the course of my research, I found no evidence to support a link between Fujita and Mitose, and noted that those who support this claim, had factual errors in their proofs, including the mistake of combining the names of Wada-ha Koga-ryu Ninjutsu and Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo, to arrive at the name of a non-existent art, "Koga-ha Satto-ryu," which makes no sense in Japanese.
> 
> My work contains a bibliography of 39 books, which include the works of Fujita and Mitose, amongst others. There are also 143 endnotes that meticulously substantiate my conclusions.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Phillip T Hevener


I'm shocked!


----------



## John Bishop

You mean Mitose wasn't really a ninja? :lol:   Next thing you know someone is going to claim that Count Dante wasn't really a Spanish Count :lfao:


----------



## Matt

Henso said:


> I recently published the above work about the career of Fujita Seiko, which contains a chapter about one of Fujita's arts, Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo and the supposed Fujita -Mitose connection. http://www.amazon.com/Fujita-Seiko-...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214786076&sr=1-1 During the course of my research, I found no evidence to support a link between Fujita and Mitose, and noted that those who support this claim, had factual errors in their proofs, including the mistake of combining the names of Wada-ha Koga-ryu Ninjutsu and Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo, to arrive at the name of a non-existent art, "Koga-ha Satto-ryu," which makes no sense in Japanese.
> 
> My work contains a bibliography of 39 books, which include the works of Fujita and Mitose, amongst others. There are also 143 endnotes that meticulously substantiate my conclusions.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Phillip T Hevener



This reminds me of the study where they found that the hot dogs you buy from street vendors in NYC might not be good for you. Thanks for doing real research. There isn't a grain of salt large enough to take with Mr. Durbin's writings.


----------



## KenG

mr bishop i somehow dont believe that mitose was not a ninja... all signs point to it... he was so secret that no one can even figure out who he trained with if that is not ninja i dont know what is...


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh

Henso said:


> I recently published the above work about the career of Fujita Seiko, which contains a chapter about one of Fujita's arts, Nanban Satto-ryu Kempo and the supposed Fujita -Mitose connection. http://www.amazon.com/Fujita-Seiko-...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214786076&sr=1-1


Mr. Heavener,
Thank you for writing the book mentioned. It is an interesting read and well researched. Highly recommended for those interested in Fujita and in Ninjutsu history in general. Purchased a copy for myself and one for a friend. I am looking forward to your next work.


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## Danjo

KenG said:


> mr bishop i somehow dont believe that mitose was not a ninja... all signs point to it... he was so secret that no one can even figure out who he trained with if that is not ninja i dont know what is...


 
 I thought it was "Ninjer"? Oh well. Probably just depends on the way the kanji is transliterated.


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## Henso

Thank you all for the interest in my post. I would appreciate any Kenpo practitioner posting a review on Amazon, as I don't think I've seen one from that point of departure yet.

Regards,

Phillip T Hevener


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## arnisador

Apologies in advance for resurrecting a George W. Bush era thread. A student of Mr. Durbin‘s recently began working at my place of employment. A martial arts colleague who had met this person before I did described the art to me as though it were something like Ryukyu Kempo—in essence, a sort of proto-karate—but the new person, who is very senior in the art, described it as a very broad mix of things, including “aiki“ and “tai chi”, while still giving a short description of it as “Okinawan kempo”. It sounds like rather a smorgasbord of systems. As a former Okinawan karate guy I was very interested, hoping it was from a sane lineage of one of the old Okinawan systems, but now I’m not sure what I’m dealing with here.

I see Mr. Durbin himself is met with “mixed feelings“ here. Are his students generally sharp, or no?


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