# Sparring against a TKD guy.



## Wingsingh (May 15, 2013)

I done some sparring with this experienced TKD guy and I got my a as handed to me. Every time I tried to move in he hammered me with kicks, no matter what I tried, he had a answer with a kick.

I tried faints to get in but he read it, I tried to come in with a flying knee but he also read that. Basically I couldn't get close to him and felt helpless. 

What should I have done?


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## almost a ghost (May 15, 2013)

Wingsingh said:


> What should I have done?



Wing Chun.



> I tried to come in with a flying knee but he also read that




Stick to your game, don't play his.


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## Drose427 (May 15, 2013)

Just like fighting anyone else. Bring him to your range, don't try to fight in his. It's difficult, but it's a hundred times better than getting wailed on.


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## yak sao (May 15, 2013)

Yep, those bastiches can kick all right, so don't stay in a range where they can get at you.
Be just far enough out of his range where he can't get you with either leg.
In order to reach you with the back leg, he would have to step slightly with the front leg and then come with the back leg.
In order to reach you with the front leg, he would have to step with the back leg to come into range.

When you see him make either of these preparatory moves, that's when you explode in...before his attack materializes.

His first move is preparation, your first move is interception.

Don't try and initiate the attack from out of range. He is poised and ready and balanced and ready to defend. When he is attacking you is when he is going to open up in some capacity and his balance will be more easily broken.


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## Xue Sheng (May 15, 2013)

almost a ghost said:


> Wing Chun.
> 
> [/COLOR]
> 
> Stick to your game, don't play his.



Yup, don't move in, let him come to you. You decide how it goes, not him.


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## Xue Sheng (May 15, 2013)

Wingsingh said:


> I done some sparring with this experienced TKD guy and I got my a as handed to me. Every time I tried to move in he hammered me with kicks, no matter what I tried, he had a answer with a kick.
> 
> I tried faints to get in but he read it, I tried to come in with a flying knee but he also read that. Basically I couldn't get close to him and felt helpless.
> 
> What should I have done?



I use to spar a TKD guy who was damn good. I had come from TKD and I was not using Wing Chun, I was trying to use the CMA stuff I had learned.

Every time I moved in on him he would kick me, one time I moved in and the kick went past my head and I thought I had him&#8230;damn if he didn&#8217;t reverse that in the air and come back with a heel kick to my head. He stopped it and rested it on my shoulder and I pretty much knew I lost.... and thanked him for not heel kicking me in the head

The only way I ever had a chance of beating him (and this was still not every time) was to let him come to me.

The only other time I beat him by going to him was with the little Xingyiquan I knew at the time. It was explosive, moved real quick and went straight in. I got him with piquan (it was all I knew then) and he did kick me but the range changed so fast that he hit me in the shoulder with his leg and his foot, which would have hit my head, was behind me...and I only tried that once.... This worked against a Southern mantis guy too&#8230;but not as well (he popped up like a weeble)...but that is another story


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## Cyriacus (May 15, 2013)

Get off his line. It doesnt really matter how. I dont know if thatll translate into your WC, but usually i find that trying to get behind someone in as linear a manner as possible usually gets you close to them regardless of their distance controlling strikes. It works for me, anyway.


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## jks9199 (May 15, 2013)

Is your wing chun defensive or offensive in nature?  Were you trying to make it do something it's not supposed to?  My admittedly limited understanding of wing chun suggests that perhaps your better tactic would have been to step in as he kicked at you, moving inside his range and dominating his centerline.


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## mook jong man (May 16, 2013)

As I understand it , he is probably just standing there with most of his weight on one leg and waiting for you to initiate .
You start to move in and he keeps you at bay with kicks , is that the story?

What you need is a technique that allows you too explosively bridge the gap , but at the same time guards the whole of your centerline on the way in.
From just out of kicking range (*NO FURTHER*) you take a big step forward with one leg ( a bit like a skip actually) and at the same time raise your other leg on your centerline to guard your groin and midsection , as you get into range your raised leg is then grounded at the same time you start your hand techniques.
Make sure at the same time you are moving in you *raise your guard to protect your head.
*
Take advantage of the fact that he is on one leg or has most of the weight on one leg to really move in fast and hit him , look for any shoulder movement .
The technique I told you about can be offensive which means that you can initiate it any time , or defensive if he initiates , you can just raise your guard and leg at the same time whilst standing in place , in our lineage we call this technique "Full Guard" because it protects the entire upper and lower body.

As you move in , your technique should be similar to the Wing Chun man on the right of this photo.


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## Gnarlie (May 16, 2013)

*Adopts best Sensei John Kreese voice* *Ahem Ahem*

"Sweep the leg"

[/KOBRAKAIVOICE]

Seriously, many of my peers don't train for leg sweeps and leg grabs, shoots and throws. It's a big gap, which you can take advantage of if the rules allow it. On the other hand, if this person does train vs sweeps and grabs, expect an unrestrained high and heavy kick in response.

Alternatively, if it's a pure striking scenario, you will not be able to stay on the centre line, and stepping in and off it gives you a very short window of opportunity. Wait for him to move, then simultaneously sidestep away from the kick and towards him on your normal centreline, initiating your hand responses and breaking his balance while his foot is still in the air. This will make it more difficult but not impossible for him to change direction of approach. You'll need to be watching to block the other leg at this point in case he switches his hips. If that first foot comes down, it's definitely too late. Make sure you block his knees or thighs. If you block his feet, you'll get bruised.

Every time you try to move in, he will try to kick moving backwards or to the side. This is very strenuous, especially starting with one leg in the air, and eventually he'll run out of gas. Once you move forward, keep the forward pressure on, but be ready to sidestep in case of back kick or reverse turning kick, two favourite and very heavy counters. Expect roundhouse as a staple counter.

It's not easy against a good mobile TKD guy, I have similar difficulties against my instructor. Wherever I want to be, it seems like his foot is already there. Try your best not to telegraph any kind of step.  Be careful what your hips and shoulders do when you step; reading those movements is the staple of TKD sparring, and we get very good at it. If you can trick him into thinking you're stepping one way and go the other, you're in.


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## Gnarlie (May 16, 2013)

On another note, it's great to see some positive comments about TKD. It's made me realise how rarely that happens!


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## mograph (May 16, 2013)

Yes. Good, practical, respectful thread. Thanks, everybody.


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## WingChunIan (May 16, 2013)

my honest answer, and it works for me 90+% of the time against the TKD guys I know is to get in fast typically using kwan sao on the way in to cover. Dont start from a standstill as it is easy for him to read your movement and have your hands up and moving. If you start way out of range then use either a feint with your footwork (expect the same leg to come back at you as you move in after the feint), kick his lead leg or use mun sao to draw an attack / response. Make sure you move your feet as you move in and dont reach with your arms jamming the TKD players legs is acheived with your own legs and hips so you need to get in close. Unlike a previous poster I would advise you to never lift your knee to cover as you step in as it reduces your stability and ability to change direction but rather keep the hips engaged and drive into the opponents COG using your legs to drive from the ground and uproot the guy who is know invariably standing on one leg.  From experience you then need to stay on top of the sparring partner and not let him break or he'll find room to throw kicks from almost impossible angles. Often the TKD guys I know will attempt to step away and spin with either a reverse turning kick / heel kick / crescent kick /  axe kick or spinning backfist and if you dont follow their COG fast enough you'll get tagged


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## mook jong man (May 16, 2013)

WingChunIan said:


> my honest answer, and it works for me 90+% of the time against the TKD guys I know is to get in fast typically using kwan sao on the way in to cover. Dont start from a standstill as it is easy for him to read your movement and have your hands up and moving. If you start way out of range then use either a feint with your footwork (expect the same leg to come back at you as you move in after the feint), kick his lead leg or use mun sao to draw an attack / response. Make sure you move your feet as you move in and dont reach with your arms jamming the TKD players legs is acheived with your own legs and hips so you need to get in close. Unlike a previous poster I would advise you to never lift your knee to cover as you step in as it reduces your stability and ability to change direction but rather keep the hips engaged and drive into the opponents COG using your legs to drive from the ground and uproot the guy who is know invariably standing on one leg.  From experience you then need to stay on top of the sparring partner and not let him break or he'll find room to throw kicks from almost impossible angles. Often the TKD guys I know will attempt to step away and spin with either a reverse turning kick / heel kick / crescent kick /  axe kick or spinning backfist and if you dont follow their COG fast enough you'll get tagged



So you are not going to raise your leg on the centerline when you move in ?
 What's going to stop him from kicking you in the groin as you step in?
You don't know whether he is going to kick high or low , your best bet is to explode in from just out of kicking range with your whole centerline protected.

Throwing feints is not part of Wing Chun and is just wasting time and energy.
Some mentioned waiting for him to come to you , you could be there all day as he dances around on the periphery of your range .
Wing Chun is an aggressive attacking system , the charging knee will safely get you into range if it is done properly from just out of kicking range , one step and a raise of the leg , and your in there right in front of him.


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## Gnarlie (May 16, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> So you are not going to raise your leg on the centerline when you move in ?
> What's going to stop him from kicking you in the groin as you step in?
> You don't know whether he is going to kick high or low , your best bet is to explode in from just out of kicking range with your whole centerline protected.
> 
> ...



Just a quick observation, from a moderately experienced TKD player's perspective:

Dealing with a direct frontal knee raised attack from just out of range is bread and butter for a TKD player, the main likely responses are sidestep and kick simultaneously or retreat and kick simultaneously. These are conditioned responses, the first of which changes the angle and removes your centreline cover, the second of which removes the range-bridging advantage you were going for and puts you back at square one, rinse and repeat.

It's more like, 'one step and a leg raise from just out of kicking range, and you're right in front of where he was'

It is highly unlikely that you will close range on a decent TKD player with a frontal attack straight from out of kicking range. The weaknesses of TKD are leg sweeps/grabs, or being caught between kicks with a leg in the air (you have to be quick). This means waiting for an attack and responding at the right time. Just rushing in doesn't work in my experience, regardless of how you cover, or whether your art is aggressive in nature.

Respectfully

Gnarlie


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## WingChunIan (May 16, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> So you are not going to raise your leg on the centerline when you move in ?
> What's going to stop him from kicking you in the groin as you step in?
> You don't know whether he is going to kick high or low , your best bet is to explode in from just out of kicking range with your whole centerline protected.
> 
> ...



When stepping in at a range that allows for kicks to land I would use biu ma stepping, not classroom perfect but the knees cover the centre without having to hop along on one leg. We step the same way regardless of whether we are facing a kicker or a puncher as in reality unless the guy is nice enough to tell you in advance you won't have a clue what is about to be thrown. Do you always step in with your knee raised? As you also quite rightly state you won't know if the kick is high or low, or if the opponent is actually going to shoot rather than kick only now you've just balanced on one leg meaning the liklihood of ending up on your backside has multiplied exponentially. 
As for feints not being in Wing Chun that's your opinion only and I would contest that it is a flawed view. A feint is any action thrown without commitment designed to draw a response from an opponent that can be exploited. Almost every technique in Wing Chun could fall into that category but Mun Sao or asking hand is designed for exactly that purpose, I presume that you don't have Mun Sao in your lineage?
I agree that Wing Chun is an agressive attacking system but it is not IMO a suicidal headlong charge and damn the consequences. Keeping both feet down allows you to change direction quickly if the opponent angles off from your attempt to close the distance.


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## mook jong man (May 16, 2013)

WingChunIan said:


> When stepping in at a range that allows for kicks to land I would use biu ma stepping, not classroom perfect but the knees cover the centre without having to hop along on one leg. We step the same way regardless of whether we are facing a kicker or a puncher as in reality unless the guy is nice enough to tell you in advance you won't have a clue what is about to be thrown. Do you always step in with your knee raised? As you also quite rightly state you won't know if the kick is high or low, or if the opponent is actually going to shoot rather than kick only now you've just balanced on one leg meaning the liklihood of ending up on your backside has multiplied exponentially.
> As for feints not being in Wing Chun that's your opinion only and I would contest that it is a flawed view. A feint is any action thrown without commitment designed to draw a response from an opponent that can be exploited. Almost every technique in Wing Chun could fall into that category but Mun Sao or asking hand is designed for exactly that purpose, I presume that you don't have Mun Sao in your lineage?
> I agree that Wing Chun is an agressive attacking system but it is not IMO a suicidal headlong charge and damn the consequences. Keeping both feet down allows you to change direction quickly if the opponent angles off from your attempt to close the distance.



If we are just out of kicking range we will bridge the gap with our leg raised , the leg is only raised for a fraction of a second and then it is grounded , we are talking a distance of about a metre and a half here , we are not coming in from half way up the street.

It is only up long enough to get you into punching range , if they did look like they were going to shoot then the leg would be going down to the floor anyway with all the bodyweight on it .
As to changing direction if they angle off , you just put your foot down and pivot , it's no quicker or slower than if you stepped in and had to pivot , it's not some big committed movement.
On ranges.
If the person is within kicking range then we will bridge the gap with our own kick , if they are within stepping range then we will step in and punch.

Regarding feints , it is not only my opinion , but the whole of our lineages opinion , I don't recall ever learning any feints in our classes .
The consensus seemed to be that they belonged to JKD , in our lineage we consider feints to be a wasted movement and we believe that Wing Chun does not contain any wasted movements.

If I'm going to use a Mun Sao it's going to be to deflect a punch , I'm not going to be using it to try and draw a reaction from them , why bother just move in and hit them.

Every deflection we learn is designed to be used while we are moving in to hit our opponent , our main objective is to hit , the deflections are just there in case they decide to initiate an attack before we get there.


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## wtxs (May 16, 2013)

Wingsingh said:


> I done some sparring with this experienced TKD guy and I got my a as handed to me. Every time I tried to move in he hammered me with kicks, no matter what I tried, he had a answer with a kick.
> 
> I tried faints to get in but he read it, I tried to come in with a flying knee but he also read that. Basically I couldn't get close to him and felt helpless.
> 
> What should I have done?



Have you try entry with an explosive "T-step"?  His reaction would be shifting to track your movement, changing his timing at that split second, which means you may could get in before the kick response. Also, work on your own timing.


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## StormShadow (May 16, 2013)

Wingsingh said:


> I done some sparring with this experienced TKD guy and I got my a as handed to me. Every time I tried to move in he hammered me with kicks, no matter what I tried, he had a answer with a kick.
> 
> I tried faints to get in but he read it, I tried to come in with a flying knee but he also read that. Basically I couldn't get close to him and felt helpless.
> 
> What should I have done?



I'm curious, did he catch you with inside and outside shin/leg checks when you tried to come in?


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## Drunken Ronin (May 18, 2013)

Hit his legs? I am sure he will get tired of being hit and then become unstuck with his one method of attack.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2013)

Drunken Ronin said:


> Hit his legs? I am sure he will get tired of being hit and then become unstuck with his one method of attack.


That's called metal -> wood. When you walk in the woods and a tree brench is in your way, chop it down.

Let your opponent's kick to meet your elbow joint by using one hand to block his kick and then drop your elbow into his instep. I had used my roundhouse kick to hit on my opponent's elbow joint. It hurt my leg a lot. For a short time, I can't use that leg to kick.


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## Zenjael (May 24, 2013)

There are other options to negate the TKD kickers strategy. For example, most TKD people can only fire one kick at one time. And even then, they oft require a reset. TKD will oft lead with 3 types of kicks; front kick, round house kick, or side kick. For one you can always tell when they are about to attack, they practically launch themselves forward. 

Secondly, knowing they are going to kick, watch their knees. Few do the style of TKD which echoes Shotokan and Okinawa-te where every kick is raised knee level, then launched. Based on the angle of their knee, if its angle its round house, if its straight without their backfeet moving, it will be a front kick. If their backfood begins to pivot, it is a side kick. 

The front kick and sidekick are fairly easy to parry and turn, but only the sidekick is easy to catch. While I've been practicing tkd for nearly 2 decades, I have only been wing chun for about a year, and my terminology is woefully under prepared.

As the front kick is extended, lean back just out of reach. Remember, they are aiming for where you were when they launched the kick, altering it to strike to a different place where you are usually deadens their kick considerably. For TKD youll prolly need to take a step back to actually avoid the kick. But one its extended you can either easily bring the hand down to either parry it away (careful of your nugs if you do this) or more preferably rotate your arm so the blade of the hand catches and is wedged by the ankle, then raise. You can do this by opening your hand horizontal right beneath where the level is they are aiming for, from there rotate the arm. If they kick with the left, block with your right with your arm rotating clockwise. If they kick with their left left leg rotate your arm counter clock-wise. He will be dropped on his ***, or at least be forced to hop backwards.

Blocking a side kick is similar, either step back and swoop catch and use the bottom of your fist just above their ankle (just unde middle of shin) and strike using your bottommost nuckle. If you want to be nice, just use the cushioned part of your hand. 

The round house you will probably need to turn basically 90 degree following the arc of their kick. For one, this will dead the kick when or if it does reach you, but it also will allow you to use basic wing chun to deflect (just dont try to control the leg after blocking it, some tkd practitioners have the hip strength to pump kicks endlessly) pretend their legs are like big arms, which are being powered through the crushing energy of their body mass following the kicks.

Remember, TKD people have to unroot themself everytime they kick, whereas wing chun remains rooted. Granted to effectively strike, you will need to be with range, but the moment you are at the range or closer of the knee of the TKD person, they will be unable to kick effectively. Additionally, kicks are not unheard of in Wing Chun. If you place your right food on the hip, right between leg and waist, the TKD practitioner will be unable to kick.

All you need do then is close the distance, bending your knee and keeping pressure on the hip, and while he's worried getting your foot off, wait on him.


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## Gnarlie (May 24, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> There are other options to negate the TKD kickers strategy. For example, most TKD people can only fire one kick at one time.



Incorrect. Most of us can launch fast and effective combinations of kicks from almost any angle.



Zenjael said:


> And even then, they oft require a reset.



Again, not in my experience.  We train to be able to initiate kicks from every conceivable starting angle / position.


Zenjael said:


> For one you can always tell when they are about to attack, they practically launch themselves forward.



A good TKD guy doesn't telegraph and uses tactics to trap and counter, or to disguise the forward motion required to bridge distance. You'll always have a hard time seeing the attack coming, and it to expect it to come straight from a forward launch movement is simplistic to say the least.


Zenjael said:


> Secondly, knowing they are going to kick, watch their knees. Few do the style of TKD which echoes Shotokan and Okinawa-te where every kick is raised knee level, then launched. Based on the angle of their knee, if its angle its round house, if its straight without their backfeet moving, it will be a front kick. If their backfood begins to pivot, it is a side kick.



This may be true for the variants of TKD you have had contact with, but it's certainly not true for KKW TKD. It is a principle of the art that kick chambers must look similar, i.e. front kick, side kick, turning kick and axe kick all have a straight raised knee chamber, while reverse turning kick, back kick and back stepped turning kick all have a matching chamber motion with the kicking foot passing close to the standing leg. Watching the knee for clues will gain you nothing apart from a kick in the chops. With experience you can read more from the shoulders and hips motion relative to each other, but it's not something that will come easily to practitioners outside of TKD.


Zenjael said:


> The front kick and sidekick are fairly easy to parry and turn, but only the sidekick is easy to catch.



They are both pretty easy to scoop catch, particularly if the rechamber and set down is slower than it should be.


Zenjael said:


> As the front kick is extended, lean back just out of reach. Remember, they are aiming for where you were when they launched the kick, altering it to strike to a different place where you are usually deadens their kick considerably.



If you lean out of range of a front kick, it's likely to be converted to an axe or similar, which is easy to redirect.


Zenjael said:


> For TKD youll prolly need to take a step back to actually avoid the kick. But one its extended you can either easily bring the hand down to either parry it away (careful of your nugs if you do this) or more preferably rotate your arm so the blade of the hand catches and is wedged by the ankle, then raise. You can do this by opening your hand horizontal right beneath where the level is they are aiming for, from there rotate the arm. If they kick with the left, block with your right with your arm rotating clockwise. If they kick with their left left leg rotate your arm counter clock-wise. He will be dropped on his ***, or at least be forced to hop backwards.



If you try to parry, block, or catch a good full contact kicker's kick at the ankle or foot, you are going home with at least a very bad bruise, and quite a high probability of a break. You need to move inside range to block and catch.  This also puts you in the areas where the body part you are trying to block or catch is moving slower. You also need to acknowledge the other leg, which is liable to be heading for your face after the catch.


Zenjael said:


> Blocking a side kick is similar, either step back and swoop catch and use the bottom of your fist just above their ankle (just unde middle of shin) and strike using your bottommost nuckle. If you want to be nice, just use the cushioned part of your hand.



Again, you need to acknowledge the other leg, which is likely to come steaming towards your face with a big back kick, using the caught leg as reaction force. I'd pretty much recommend not catching an experienced TKDer's leg. These people kick for a living. If you think they don't have an answer for leg captures, you're fooling yourself.


Zenjael said:


> The round house you will probably need to turn basically 90 degree following the arc of their kick. For one, this will dead the kick when or if it does reach you, but it also will allow you to use basic wing chun to deflect (just dont try to control the leg after blocking it, some tkd practitioners have the hip strength to pump kicks endlessly) pretend their legs are like big arms, which are being powered through the crushing energy of their body mass following the kicks.



Again, if you block at the knee, then 'pumped' kicks are not a problem. The other leg, however, is, as are the hands.


Zenjael said:


> Remember, TKD people have to unroot themself everytime they kick, whereas wing chun remains rooted. Granted to effectively strike, you will need to be with range, but the moment you are at the range or closer of the knee of the TKD person, they will be unable to kick effectively.



Not true. Never heard of bada chagi? The counter kick? Roundhouses, back kick, heel kicks, etc. In fact, some of the most devastating TKD kicks for full contact are thrown from this range. Make sure you're wearing protection if you are going to try this.


Zenjael said:


> Additionally, kicks are not unheard of in Wing Chun. If you place your right food on the hip, right between leg and waist, the TKD practitioner will be unable to kick.



Not true. Again, we train kicking every day. If you think we have no answer to this, you're fooling yourself. Hip switches, elbow to knee attacks, clearing crescent kicks, leg grabs and sweeps, and back kicks are all likely. With a leg in the air, you will not have time to adjust and will be a sitting duck. Good luck with that.


Zenjael said:


> All you need do then is close the distance, bending your knee and keeping pressure on the hip, and while he's worried getting your foot off, wait on him.



And a nice sweeping low block and counter front kick or stance switch back kick will see you on your ***. Again, good luck with that.

Honestly, there's very little advice in here that I could recommend, even to a TKDer against a TKDer. A Wing Chunner trying these tactics would be playing the TKDer's game, and would not profit. Better strategy would be to force the TKDer to play the WC game.


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## Xue Sheng (May 24, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> There are other options to negate the TKD kickers strategy. For example, most TKD people can only fire one kick at one time. And even then, they oft require a reset. TKD will oft lead with 3 types of kicks; front kick, round house kick, or side kick. For one you can always tell when they are about to attack, they practically launch themselves forward.
> 
> Secondly, knowing they are going to kick, watch their knees. Few do the style of TKD which echoes Shotokan and Okinawa-te where every kick is raised knee level, then launched. Based on the angle of their knee, if its angle its round house, if its straight without their backfeet moving, it will be a front kick. If their backfood begins to pivot, it is a side kick.
> 
> ...



You never have sparred a real TKD guy have you


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