# Z-Ultimate and United Studios of Self Defense



## MADENVER (Jul 19, 2018)

I've been involved in this kempo/kenpo lineage for years now, but am not an insider, and apparently those of us who aren't are pretty in the dark about goings-on. I was away from USSD for some years in the Denver area, and when I came back, there was Z-Ultimate in its place. I'm aware of the court battle but only vaguely and it doesn't make sense to me. What motives people might have for splitting 80 some schools from one that had twice that many. It's bewildering. But outside of that, I have no idea and have not chosen sides or anything. It happened while I was away - trying other things. I came back because this is my thing and I haven't found better - at least in the Denver area where I live.

I've been watching for several years as Z-Ultimate seems to be slowly dwindling down - closing one school after another. And tonight, I just did a Google Maps search on the whole country, for Z-Ultimate and USSD and see nothing showing up on the east coast anymore. Unless I'm wrong, or perhaps didn't zoom in enough. 

But are there any insiders here? Have both these schools greatly diminished now? Does anyone know what's going on?

I've heard theories from one guy, about it being a tired old business model, but I just don't know. Other theories about the American culture having changed so radically, that few people are all that interested in self defense schools anymore. I'm not sure why.

I'd like to have a polite discussion here, if possible, about all this, without all the outsiders types of comments about "McDojo" and all that. Despite the observable problems that so many of us students see, there are a bunch of us here in the Denver area, who just keep going, for the simple reason that we still don't see anything better.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 19, 2018)

hey @MADENVER
i cant speak directly for your specific question i never heard of Z- Ultimate.  but i was training in kempo back when USSD was on the east coast and Charlie Mattera broke off and went his own way on the west coast.



MADENVER said:


> I've heard theories from one guy, about it being a tired old business model,


i would agree with this.  there was a model where you rented a store front,  the space has carpeted floor, change rooms and a separate room for private lessons.  plain painted walls with a couple pictures hanging on the walls of a dragon and a tiger and some mirrors.







 this is so 1980's you might as well be listening to "flock of seaguls"





compared to todays MMA gyms,  schools like that are very outdated and do not draw any interest.


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## Buka (Jul 19, 2018)

*"The only constant in life is change"*

Heraclitus (Greek philosopher guy)


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## MADENVER (Jul 19, 2018)

That's like comparing tennis and hockey. MMA is a sport.


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## Martial D (Jul 19, 2018)

MADENVER said:


> That's like comparing tennis and hockey. MMA is a sport.


To be fair, so is karate, jui jitsu, judo, and any other style that sponsors competition.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 19, 2018)

Not an insider per se, but I practiced USSD, and spoke with many 'insiders' or 'friends of insiders' (not sure exactly whom you're referring to with that word. From what I understand it was more of a business model disagreement, and personal disagreement that people had...multiple heads of schools had issues with the pressures the overall USSD organization puts on them to do well and succeed...I could go into more detail about some stories I heard, but would never say them online, especially since I can't confirm the stories that I have heard. But, basically, the heads of those schools were Z-Ultimate came about wanted to keep teaching the style, but did not want to have to deal with the negative aspects of the organization (I am intentionally calling it organization not style), so they split off.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 19, 2018)

MADENVER said:


> That's like comparing tennis and hockey. MMA is a sport.


He still has a point. MMA is just mixed martial arts. Plenty people go to an MMA school without a desire to compete, but for the same reasons they may have gone to a kempo school (self-defense, discipline, socializing, etc.)


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## Headhunter (Jul 20, 2018)

MADENVER said:


> That's like comparing tennis and hockey. MMA is a sport.


So is pretty much every martial art


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 20, 2018)

MADENVER said:


> That's like comparing tennis and hockey. MMA is a sport.


your missing the point of your own question.  Tennis, hockey, soccer, karate it doesnt matter.  you asked about business and schools going out of business due to lack of interest.  like it or not MMA and every other martial art as well as other athletic activities are all in competition for the same thing...peoples time and money.  if you do karate, MMA is your direct competitor and are stealing away your clients.  if you teach kids karate, soccer, basketball and the Cub Scouts  are your competitors and are taking your clients.  
the way you responded to my statement i would take a guess that there are no kempo schools around but probably have 5 or 6 MMA gyms.  in my area the few kenpo schools probably have 0 to 5 maybe 10 adult students while the MMA gym has hundreds.  and guess what that MMA gym also has classes in traditional martial arts that are filled to capacity.  its about the modern facitlity and modern business model.


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## Buka (Jul 20, 2018)

Having a dojo, any dojo, any style, that you like going to is a wonderful thing. No matter how long you train, it is a truly wonderful thing.

They are worth seeking out. May we all be lucky in our lives to find some.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 21, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> He still has a point. MMA is just mixed martial arts. Plenty people go to an MMA school without a desire to compete, but for the same reasons they may have gone to a kempo school (self-defense, discipline, socializing, etc.)


I'd guess it's just as likely for someone to go to an MMA school for any of the reasons they'd come to my program (except competition - they'd be crazy to come to me for that).


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## now disabled (Jul 21, 2018)

MMA is the "new" in thing it gets the media coverage etc etc etc so people go and mostly find the new razzle dazzle environments to train in so they stay (maybe the gym offers trad arts to) and it gets the money rolling in.
It possible that they are not exactly looking for a specific art per se and due to the media exposure etc they go. 
Will it last ? who knows only time will tell and the general public are a fickle lot lol so who knows if that model will stay 

(I am not knocking the pro fighters here btw they are to me anyway a different "breed" in their training )


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2018)

There is a United Studios of Self Defense school in the small town down the road from me, in the strip mall next to the Safeway.  I don’t shop there much, but when I am in the area it seems it is seldom open.  When it is open, I cannot remember seeing more than three children taking a class, usually fewer.  I do not believe I have ever seen an adult taking a class.  I don’t know how he stays open.  Maybe he has more classes that I’ve simply never seen.  I dunno.  I can’t see how it can last, but he has been open for a number of years.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> your missing the point of your own question.  Tennis, hockey, soccer, karate it doesnt matter.  you asked about business and schools going out of business due to lack of interest.  like it or not MMA and every other martial art as well as other athletic activities are all in competition for the same thing...peoples time and money.  if you do karate, MMA is your direct competitor and are stealing away your clients.  if you teach kids karate, soccer, basketball and the Cub Scouts  are your competitors and are taking your clients.
> the way you responded to my statement i would take a guess that there are no kempo schools around but probably have 5 or 6 MMA gyms.  in my area the few kenpo schools probably have 0 to 5 maybe 10 adult students while the MMA gym has hundreds.  and guess what that MMA gym also has classes in traditional martial arts that are filled to capacity.  its about the modern facitlity and modern business model.


I think it is hard to say that “they are stealing your clients.”  There is no guarantee they would be your clients, even if you are the only game in town.  Maybe the kids don’t want karate, even if soccer isnt available as an alternative.  Maybe the adults don’t want what you are teaching, or simply don’t want you as a teacher, even if the MMA gym down the street never existed.

It’s easy to point at things and say that is your competition, but it might simply not be true.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 21, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I think it is hard to say that “they are stealing your clients.”  There is no guarantee they would be your clients, even if you are the only game in town.  Maybe the kids don’t want karate, even if soccer isnt available as an alternative.  Maybe the adults don’t want what you are teaching, or simply don’t want you as a teacher, even if the MMA gym down the street never existed.
> 
> It’s easy to point at things and say that is your competition, but it might simply not be true.


I was and am speaking from a business perspective only.  It has to be assumed that our market sample size only consists of consumers who are actively looking for a leisure activity.
My response was to the OP who stated karate and MMA are apples and oranges. I was pointing out that from a  business perspective a karate school is in competition with all leisure activities. The major factors that will sway the consumer from karate to MMA is marketing, public opinion trends and amenities including price and value.  The old school 1980s karate school has no advantage in any catagory except maybe price but a smart consumer measures price to value not just price.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 21, 2018)

now disabled said:


> MMA is the "new" in thing it gets the media coverage etc etc etc so people go and mostly find the new razzle dazzle environments to train in so they stay (maybe the gym offers trad arts to) and it gets the money rolling in.
> It possible that they are not exactly looking for a specific art per se and due to the media exposure etc they go.
> Will it last ? who knows only time will tell and the general public are a fickle lot lol so who knows if that model will stay
> 
> (I am not knocking the pro fighters here btw they are to me anyway a different "breed" in their training )


Media exposure has pretty much always driven MA attendance. Back in the day, it was all "Karate", whether it was Karate or TKD, or whatever - because that's all anyone knew from movies.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 21, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I think it is hard to say that “they are stealing your clients.”  There is no guarantee they would be your clients, even if you are the only game in town.  Maybe the kids don’t want karate, even if soccer isnt available as an alternative.  Maybe the adults don’t want what you are teaching, or simply don’t want you as a teacher, even if the MMA gym down the street never existed.
> 
> It’s easy to point at things and say that is your competition, but it might simply not be true.


I think he makes a fair point, FC. Kids' parents have a limited budget and time allotment for activities. Every activity they sign up for makes it less likely they choose the kids' TKD class or whatever. Same for adults, with some different dynamics. The more time I spend training MA, the less time I spend playing golf. So, in a very significant way, MA is competing with golf, tennis, hiking, etc.


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## pdg (Jul 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The more time I spend training MA, the less time I spend playing golf.



Yet another very real benefit of training MA - it stops the madness of golf.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 21, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yet another very real benefit of training MA - it stops the madness of golf.


I was thinking the reverse.


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## pdg (Jul 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I was thinking the reverse.



You can't fool me, I've seen golf on telly.

It was said that golf is a way to ruin a good walk - I disagree though, it looks like a pretty poor walk to me 

That said, I did have golf fun once - one golf stick and a bagful of out of date coleslaw...


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 21, 2018)

pdg said:


> You can't fool me, I've seen golf on telly.
> 
> It was said that golf is a way to ruin a good walk - I disagree though, it looks like a pretty poor walk to me
> 
> That said, I did have golf fun once - one golf stick and a bagful of out of date coleslaw...


If you've watched golf on telly, you've seen nothing resembling the golf I play. They're playing competitive golf. I play self-defense golf.

No, seriously, it's like the damned course is out to get me. So I fight back.


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## pdg (Jul 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If you've watched golf on telly, you've seen nothing resembling the golf I play. They're playing competitive golf. I play self-defense golf.
> 
> No, seriously, it's like the damned course is out to get me. So I fight back.



"Watched" is a very strong term...

I was doing some sewing the other night while the wife was watching inane nonsense, then she left the room and left the telly on - it was maybe half an hour before the mention of handicapped birds* suffering from crossed winds sitting on bogies* (I'm sure it was something like that) registered.


(* Look up the colloquial British usage of these terms.)


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> I was and am speaking from a business perspective only.  It has to be assumed that our market sample size only consists of consumers who are actively looking for a leisure activity.
> My response was to the OP who stated karate and MMA are apples and oranges. I was pointing out that from a  business perspective a karate school is in competition with all leisure activities. The major factors that will sway the consumer from karate to MMA is marketing, public opinion trends and amenities including price and value.  The old school 1980s karate school has no advantage in any catagory except maybe price but a smart consumer measures price to value not just price.


I understand but I disagree with your presumption.  A karate school is not in competition for everyone looking for a leisure activity.  A karate school is in competition for everyone who might want to learn karate, even if those people have not themselves decided that is what they want.

I have no interest in tennis.  I would not play tennis nor get tennis instruction even if I was unable to train martial arts.  Likewise, I have no interest in MMA nor BJJ, and I would not pursue that instruction even if it was the only martial training available to me.

My point is, all leisure activities are not the same, and someone who might join one might not automatically join a different one if that was the only option.  Different schools offering different instruction are not automatically competing for the same clients.

I recently floated the idea in my community of offering Kung fu instruction.  I’ve got about ten people who have expressed interest.  There is a well established MMA school that also offers instruction in BJJ, karate, JKD, capoeira and I think maybe Kali.  There is also a Kuk Sool Won school, and a USSD Kempo school.  These people do not go to any of those schools.  If it was all the same to them, then they would have joined one of those schools.  Apparently they are interested in the possibility of Kung fu.

One of the guys mentioned that he had some karate training in the past, but felt the teacher was not a good match for him.  So he is interested in a different possibility.

These are examples that illustrate my point.  All schools are not automatically competing for the same clients.  Someone who would come to me for instruction is not automatically a lost student to the other schools.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think he makes a fair point, FC. Kids' parents have a limited budget and time allotment for activities. Every activity they sign up for makes it less likely they choose the kids' TKD class or whatever. Same for adults, with some different dynamics. The more time I spend training MA, the less time I spend playing golf. So, in a very significant way, MA is competing with golf, tennis, hiking, etc.


See my reply to Hoshin above.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 21, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I understand but I disagree with your presumption.  A karate school is not in competition for everyone looking for a leisure activity.  A karate school is in competition for everyone who might want to learn karate, even if those people have not themselves decided that is what they want.
> 
> I have no interest in tennis.  I would not play tennis nor get tennis instruction even if I was unable to train martial arts.  Likewise, I have no interest in MMA nor BJJ, and I would not pursue that instruction even if it was the only martial training available to me.
> 
> ...


Good points.  I just look at it differently. They are all my future customers they just don't know it yet. It's up to my marketing and sales to convince them this is where they WANT to be.


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## drop bear (Jul 21, 2018)

MADENVER said:


> That's like comparing tennis and hockey. MMA is a sport.



Tennis and hockey are both sports.


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## drop bear (Jul 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'd guess it's just as likely for someone to go to an MMA school for any of the reasons they'd come to my program (except competition - they'd be crazy to come to me for that).



If I did not care about the martial art one way or another and just looked at the services provided. And then looked at a decent MMA gym. I would get more bang for buck generally.

Lets look at courage in Townsville.
Boxing Townsville | Martial Arts | Courage Training Centre

Now I can learn 4 different systems and fitness instruction,weight loss, nutrition. From legitimate ranked instructors. Plus seminars. Plus social events.
(They did a high fall stunt course)


I can train every day.

I have access to competitions in different disciplines depending on what would suit me.

And these styles transport. So if I go to another gym. I walk in there at the level I left the old one.

And better equipment. And self defence.


As oposed to one style by one guy who may be three times a week that once I leave. Nobody cares about. I cant walk my karate black belt in to Barrys karate advanced class as easily. My BJJ black belt is a black belt in every style of BJJ.

So I would have to be invested in learning a style specifically because I wanted to learn it. Rather than just learning martial arts.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Good points.  I just look at it differently. They are all my future customers they just don't know it yet. It's up to my marketing and sales to convince them this is where they WANT to be.


Fair enough.  Different philosophy I guess.  I’ve never been accused of being a good business man.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 21, 2018)

pdg said:


> "Watched" is a very strong term...
> 
> I was doing some sewing the other night while the wife was watching inane nonsense, then she left the room and left the telly on - it was maybe half an hour before the mention of handicapped birds* suffering from crossed winds sitting on bogies* (I'm sure it was something like that) registered.
> 
> ...


I'm fully competent to translate British. I've read Harry Potter.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 21, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I understand but I disagree with your presumption.  A karate school is not in competition for everyone looking for a leisure activity.  A karate school is in competition for everyone who might want to learn karate, even if those people have not themselves decided that is what they want.
> 
> I have no interest in tennis.  I would not play tennis nor get tennis instruction even if I was unable to train martial arts.  Likewise, I have no interest in MMA nor BJJ, and I would not pursue that instruction even if it was the only martial training available to me.
> 
> ...


Those activities might not be options for you, but they are for some. And that's the point. If we take the total population of an area, then identify the likely population for MA (let's stick with adults, so 18-35 YO is probably the key demographic I'd guess), other activities are options for a large portion of those folks. If they like to perform in theatre, they'll be less likely to commit time to a MA program. There's nothing at all similar about those activities, but they are still competing for the same people in some instances.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 21, 2018)

drop bear said:


> If I did not care about the martial art one way or another and just looked at the services provided. And then looked at a decent MMA gym. I would get more bang for buck generally.
> 
> Lets look at courage in Townsville.
> Boxing Townsville | Martial Arts | Courage Training Centre
> ...


Agreed. If I used 4 Season (where Tony teaches) as an example, I don't know what they charge there, but it's a fantastic place to go play. If I were starting (or starting again) today, someplace like that would be very appealing. Of course, that's comparing a small program with one set of classes to a large MMA gym with several programs. If I had the place I want, it'd be a lot more like the MMA gym, including multiple arts and instructors, lots of classes to choose from, etc. That's my point - there's not so much difference in selection for most people between choosing MMA and what I do (again, assuming they aren't looking specifically for competition). Compare my program to a small MMA program with a single instructor/coach, and if someone doesn't have an existing preference, they might choose either.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If I used 4 Season (where Tony teaches) as an example, I don't know what they charge there


Last time I checked, it was $100/month for unlimited classes (6-7 days per week, depending on whether the Sunday class is currently running). There are cheaper plans available for people who come less often.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 21, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Last time I checked, it was $100/month for unlimited classes (6-7 days per week, depending on whether the Sunday class is currently running). There are cheaper plans available for people who come less often.


Man, that's a value. Back when I was training all the time, I was probably paying $120 or more a month, and we didn't have the kind of selection you guys have there.


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