# Does Size Matter?



## Kirk (Mar 7, 2002)

I'm a pretty big guy.  The beginners class that I'm in goes up
to blue belt.  It seems so far, that none of the higher ranked
belts of a definite smaller size would be able to do much damage
to me.  I know that anyone can poke an eye, or attack 
unexpectedly, but that aside, they couldn't successfully put me
in a wrist lock, bear hug, full nelson, headlock, pin or check my
knee or leg.  Even most of their strikes don't effect me too much.
There are other guys that are big, yet smaller than me that can
do this stuff, so it's easy to see that bigger does NOT mean
better, or indestructable or anything remotely like that.  But
when there's a situation bordering on a drastic height and 
weight difference, it's a definite factor.  If y'all feel that a skilled,
yet small black belt would effectively take me out ...  at what
point would that happen, do you think?  Like a small kenpoist
versus a big guy, not studying any art?  How about a small
kenpoist, taking on a big guy of a low rank?


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 7, 2002)

Kenpo is to be tailored to fit the individual.  size can be a factor but it should not matter.


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## arnisador (Mar 7, 2002)

Training can only do so much. Yes, mass matters. It's harder to hurt a big guy. A trained fighter always has an edge on an untrained fighter; an aggressive/driven fighter always has an edge on a fighter who doesn't have that mental attitude; and a bigger or faster fighter has an edge on a smaller or slower one.

So, if you can't be big, studying the martial arts is a good idea! If you are big it'll still make you a much better fighter. But, as Mr. Hartman said to me last night, would you put a heavyweight champ up against a featherweight champ?

Some day the smaller folk will improve their technique enough to rattle you (including that hey'll find ways to make it work for them as they gain experience). I don't think anyone would want to throw down with Angi Uezu who's fairly short if memory serves. But yes, size matters. You'll always be harder to hurt or choke. There are some techniques that'll work better against you but overall, as a rule, it's a benefit in a fight to be bigger.


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 7, 2002)

Kirk, wait til someone does backbreaker on you, you will wish you were a 100 pounds, with the larger size gravity can be a pain with some techniques.


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## Kirk (Mar 7, 2002)

> _ Originally posted by Rob Broad:_
> with the larger size gravity can be a pain with some
> techniques



I can definitely go with that.  While working techs in a circle, and
having to dummy like 20 times in a minute, it's done a number
on me with taking falls, or hitting your knees, etc.


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 7, 2002)

Also remeber that coin has 2 sides, what may seem medium power coming from you may feel like a run a way train to a smaller person.  In time there will be a balance.  Enjoy your time of not much working on you, because soon, they will figure out how to make everything painful.


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## Battousai (Mar 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *I know that anyone can poke an eye, or attack
> unexpectedly, but that aside, they couldn't successfully put me
> ...



 I think size has nothing to do with putting someone in a wrist lock  Children can be taught to take adults down with wrist locks, though they have to be quick about it, since they don't have the strength when the adult resists. But then all wrist techniques are about simple manipulation that results in the wrist/arm in a position of weakness so that there is virtually no strength to resist anyway. And as for the others things, size certainly makes it hard to grab someone.

 But I don't think size matters. I think that every body being unique has its own natural advantages and disadvantages. The advantages of size are extra stength and extra padding in some places. The disadvantages are the extra weight in falling (as mentioned above), a general lack of flexibility, and a little less speed.
 Most all of the advantages of size can be gained with enough training, and most of the disadvantages of size can be eliminated with enough training. 

 For me, my disadvantages are my height - I'm too tall, my center of gravity is way above average, so throwing me is really easy, and my weight - I weigh less then average for my height, so I don't have as much biomass padding protection, or as much natural force in my techniques as people with more mass do. My advantages are wiry muscles - which are a little faster then bulkier musculature, flexibility - where most wrist techniques would have had someone on the ground or in the air or with broken bones, the techniques need to be amplified/exaggerated to work on me. 
 Most of my advantages can be gained with training, after years of uki-ing with wrist techniques everyone's wrists become more flexible. 

 Martial arts are such that every type of physique can be effective. Are some physiques better then others? I don't know, but regardless, what matters most is the training. Women have natural advantages that men don't, with their stucture, yet they are not as strong. Yet strength is perhaps the least of the virtues of the martial artist. The whole concept of martial arts is that of the small person being able to easily subdue the larger. The realm of atemi drastically shrinks the benefits of brute strength. Every body has it's weak spots, and those spots are uniform acrost the board in their homological positioning. Each body is different, thus the points of atemi are in different spots, but these positions are all relative to the proportions of the body.

 Martial arts seem to be, to me, a equal ground for all, no matter there size or lack of. The only requirement is a motor ablility. People in wheel chairs can take down those will full mobility, because there are advantages to being in a wheel chair as well. Basic advantages being a very low center of gravity and a low striking field that is uncommon to normal bipeds. 

 The longer someone takes lessons, the more training they undergo, the less the gap between mere physical advantage becomes.
 A rather long winded opinion, but this is a fundamental question to the nature of martial arts


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## Klondike93 (Mar 7, 2002)

:boxing: 

Lets see, how did that go? "The bigger they are the harder they fall". 

Yeah that's it.

 

:asian: 

Chuck


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## GouRonin (Mar 7, 2002)

Size matters, in many things. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is wrong.

Right Dutch?
Ha ha ha!

But seriously, size does matter. Some techniques will work no matter what the size is but size is a huge factor. It's a myth that is plays no importance.


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## kenpo_cory (Mar 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Size matters, in many things. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is wrong.
> 
> It's a myth that is plays no importance. *


*


I agree 100% Mass must definitely be taken into consideration. I know, I'm only 5' 6" 160 pounds. Now, if I get into a shoving match with someone thats 6'3" 275 pounds I'm in trouble. I think that you have to choose which principles will work best against different opponents.  But, I also think that size becomes less of an issue as experience is gained and proper technique is executed.*


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## Kirk (Mar 7, 2002)

> _Originally Posted By: Battousai _
> I think size has nothing to do with putting someone in a wrist lock



I have pretty big wrists, and there's guys there with small hands.
They have an awful lot of difficulting putting me in a wrist lock.

I certainly didn't post here to make it sound like I feel that I'm 
some sort of bad *** because I'm big.  If it sounded that way,
then let me state otherwise right here and now.  The black belts
at my school are half my size, and they've jacked me up plenty!
I was referring to a drastic difference in size.  There's a kid (like
18 or 19) in my class that feels working out with me is pointless.
He comes across to me as someone who got picked on a lot, 
because of his size.  Just  a feeling, he hasn't validated that.
And although he has done PLENTY of effective inflictions of pain
on me, he says he can tell how it's effective on other students,
but not with me.  No matter what I tell him, he thinks I'm blowin'
smoke.


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## arnisador (Mar 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *But seriously, size does matter. Some techniques will work no matter what the size is but size is a huge factor. It's a myth that is plays no importance. *



I disagree--it's a fantasy, not a myth. People _want_ to believe it.

The martial arts help but they aren't magic.


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## Battousai (Mar 7, 2002)

Heh, I never said it plays no importance  
 It is an attribute, like many others. If martial arts are defined such that the biggest is the best then their is no difference between martial arts and normal untrained fist fights. 
 I don't belive that you guys really understand much about Aiki, or Atemi, to be saying such things. But everyone is intitled to their opinion.

 Kirk: I never thought of you as a bad *** or anything  
 You posted a really good question.


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## JD_Nelson (Mar 8, 2002)

I am not sure about what is big and what is not.  Everyone's pain tolerance is different.   

For those with a high pain tolerance maybe the smaller guy should try to defang the snake.  Take out the tuffy's weapons so they dont do damage.  

I am not sure if it is a principle or not but I think it would work on someone with a high tolerance for pain.  

   Crack the ice, then break the ice.  

Meaning keep targeting the same area.  This would not have to be eye gouges, or soft tissue strikes.  It could be the sternum, knee, or head of the muscle on the thigh, Take enough shots to the legs and mobility will decrease.   

Maybe a smaller person would to make a big guy chase him a little bit.  In general I think a big guy might wear out faster having more mass to move around.    

Proper techniqe will also lend a smaller incredible power.  If the proper angles for attack and bracing are used the energy will not recoil as severe into the smaller person.

Just me thinking.....:asian: 

~~~Salute~~~

Jeremy


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## Chiduce (Mar 8, 2002)

I would say that size is a factor in certain environments and situations. One would be the dojo and training with others whom would be unequally smaller. In the case the larger one would learn more about controlling aggressive wasted motion as well as specific offensive and defensive methods to his/her arsenal. The smaller one would relate more speed, power, and specific striking combative analogies to his/her arsenal! Here, they both will experience positive results in their respective interactions within the training environment.  Now, in an actual violent street attack; size would be of little importance to no importance at all! Proper balance of rooting and yielding; adapting and controlling; adhereing and up-rooting; following and finishing with brutally damaging devastation are the key factors from my personal experiences.  Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Yari (Mar 8, 2002)

Size matters, and so does weight.

Try and pratice with a person that's over 192 cm (about 6'4"), and weighs over 120 kg (sorry don't know the equivalent). His wrists are so huge you probably cant grip around then. Manipulating with such a person is hard. Specially the smaller you get. And if your that big try fighting a person of smaller stature than your self. You'll find out that its easy. There are a lots of "what if" situations, but in the end a punch doesn't hurt taht much if the person is a fly compared to an elephant. But it's easier for the fly to find the part of the body that the elephant can't reach.........


/Yari


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## Battousai (Mar 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> *I would say that size is a factor in certain environments and situations. One would be the dojo and training with others whom would be unequally smaller. In the case the larger one would learn more about controlling aggressive wasted motion as well as specific offensive and defensive methods to his/her arsenal. *



 I've noticed that bigger sized people do have some training hurdles that others don't too Chiduce. In Jujitsu, guys with lots of natural strength have to learn alot about not using that strength. The whole point of throwing is that it is effortless and should use the energy of the uki. Strong guys can go for years doing throws incorrectly because they have the strength to back up their incorrect technique. No matter how big you are, there's always someone bigger out there, and you will meet them LOL. And techniques that require strength will not work on them. Correct techniques require no strength. Its hard to learn not to use your own strength.

 The reverse side is with smaller people. They HAVE to do the technique correctly to get the result. If they don't it doesn't work. I went to Jujitsu classes for years were the only guy there to work out with was of great size. For years I couldn't figure out how to throw him, I would get some things down but others just wouldn't ever work. And then one day I actually slamed him, and he was like, wow I actually had to slap the mat. My technique finally got to the point that the throw we were doing really worked on him. I know that I can do it now. But for larger people, it takes a long time to know for sure that you are doing the technique right and not relying on your strength, because the results can look the same to the untrained eye. Smaller people can go through classes looking like they never get anywhere, and its really depressing, but they are learning and will eventually get to the point that the results of their training are evident.

 As for not being able to get a grip on larger wrists, I can sympathize. My instructor is so big that I can't hardly bear hug him at all, and I'm over 6 foot 2 inches, with long arms. I can't encircle his wrists with my grip, but I can get wrist locks on him, I guess it depends on the type of locks we're talking about, everything I've been taught works on him with enough practise.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 8, 2002)

Size matters in many situations but not always.
One of my students (from a few years back) was a police officer and ex mlitary. He weighed in at aout 275 and was fast as hell. We got playing a little to rough one day (he had alredy broke my nose) when I kicked hi in mid thigh. Tore out anterior,and posterior ligiments He was laid up or in a cast for the next six weeks. 
Can a little man take down a big man it may depend on the people or the experience. When will it happen? when least expected.
Shadow
Oh i weigh in at about 140lbs.


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## Chiduce (Mar 8, 2002)

I understand what each of you are saying and understand each ones point! Yet the real deal in a violent street attack is not going to give you time for proper technique, proper timing, or even proper understanding that the attack may be coming. Your understanding of self is all you have to either win or lose; be damaged with little severity or be damaged severely; or fatally injured! That is the attacker's main purpose and only if no weapons are involved. The element of surprise is his/her key to controlling you and not his/her size! Even though they may think that combined with the surprise element, the victims sight of the size of this attacker will aid in controlling your possible countering abilities! Jujitsu stylists learn striking, kicking and breaking just as the others do. It is highly probable that any series of these combinations which are positively effective will be the best possible alternative. It is safe to assume also that with proper power distribution; these combinations will save you from any fatal damage to yourselves. I was in an encounter where a guy and his friend just went out of it. Both guys were larger than me and my friend. They were visitors at my friends house. When they went off the deep end; the first factor that they used was the element of suprise for control. One dude picked my friend up and threw him out of his own front picture window, crashing him  onto his front porch. Then the other guy turned at me a started to shout and yell obscenities! I had to realize that there was nothing that i could do to stop them from this. So, i agreed to their demands to the point of settling them down as the lead guy approached! When i could see that his yang was swifting turning to yin, i struck! I continued to srtike and kick until he needed help from his friend. By then we had fought into the kitchen where i picked up a knife out of the knife rack and started to throw my first strike with it. Well as fate had it that night, my attacker had become very winded. The spiritual aspect of someone or something took presence within my counter assualt and the knife slipped out of my hand and onto the floor. The attacker took several breaths and i got out through the back door in the kitchen unharmed. This does not necessarily prove that size does or does not matter; though it does prove that the striking kicking and breaking combinations work well when all else is failing! Then i weighted about 150 lbs; my freind weighted about 135 lbs; and the 2 guys combined weighted about 265lbs; with my attacker weighting about 240lbs. My present height and weight are 5'10", 225lbs! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## fist of fury (Mar 8, 2002)

This is a great thread with some really well thought out responses. But being the juvenile person I am I'll have to harass kirk a little.

{ begin juvenile
1. Does size matter?
It depends upon the ladies preference
2. Kirk does have big wrists and a really good grip. guess why 
/end juvenile}

ok juvenile mode off is off now yes I  agree technique will eventually help alot one of the asst. instructors in my kwoon is about 5'1 120lbs and can easil defeat some of the larger students over 6' tall but it takes time.


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## Kirk (Mar 8, 2002)

Careful fist ... don't make me sick chungmoo warrior on  you!

:samurai:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 9, 2002)

Size is something you have very little control over.  Your focus should rather be on maxamizing your skill level and abilities tailored to the size God gave you.  Develop skills that will be useful for your personal attributes.

There are great Martial Artists in all different forms of all different sizes.



You know what I always say.........

It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the way you ride your bicycle!


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## clapping_tiger (Mar 19, 2002)

Size does matter but yet it doesn't.  IF 2 fighters were untrained then the odds will be in the favor of the larger man.  But yet anything can happen on the street.  You take out a large mans knee, hey it's all over.  The smaller man will be lighter on his feet and therefore be harder to catch.  But yet all the big man has to do is get in one solid punch, but if they are equal, the smaller man should be faster and be able to move and counter and strike the groin.  You could play this debate all day; it is the classic yin-yang theory.  In the end it all boils down to who wants it the most and who has more to lose. Like the quote from some movie I can't remember.  Who do you put your money on the fox or the rabbit?  Put your money on the rabbit. The fox is only running for his dinner, the rabbit is running for his life.


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## Ronin (Mar 19, 2002)

In my humble experience I have learned height doesnt play too much of a role, I will say that attitude it what makes people succeed.  As a police officer, I have always fought two kinds of people drunk and  the mentally unstable. Both of which can dont give a dang about whose taller only that they try to kick your A**.  Being 5'8" myself I battled internal demons as a youth over my height but after seeing the damage a short competitor did at the internationals to his opponent made me realize height and weight arent factors that should be given too much thought.  That again is my humble opinion.    Now if it was Shaq against Papa Smurf  I'd say maybe Shaq has the edge.  But then again Papa Smurf beat Gargamel all the time. Who knows?                                                                                              One by one the penguins steal my sanity.


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## arnisador (Mar 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ronin _
> 
> *As a police officer, I have always fought two kinds of people drunk and  the mentally unstable.*



What have you learned about taking down a person who is apt to be large and insensitive to pain?


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## Klondike93 (Mar 19, 2002)

Shoot em in the knees!!

:asian:


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## Yari (Mar 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> What have you learned about taking down a person who is apt to be large and insensitive to pain? *



There are ways of taking this person down. But I belive when the physical differance between uke and tori is great good technice is nessary. Remember pain is not the way to do technics, but a helpful tool.

Concerning the knee-cap.... shot him in the hands too.... He'll rember every time he uses his hands.... :rofl: 

/Yari


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## Turner (Mar 20, 2002)

I'm fortunate enough to be one of those large guys who have a high pain thresh-hold. Its always been fun for me to be new in a class and have people attempt to do wristlocks on me and see no reaction. Simple advice to the person that has to deal with someone like me.... Don't discount that wristlock! Sure, there are people whose wrist you will latch onto and with the tiniest bit of pressure they will be screaming for their mommies. Then there are those people who you try your best wristlock on and they'll look at you like your stupid. Just because you get that reaction, don't let up on the hold. Place his wrist at different angles. The technique really begins to work when the hand is at 45 degrees from the shoulder. That is the nice side of the effective range. If its closer than 45 most of the torque is going into the elbow and the weight distribution allows the big guy to be more set to absorb the punishment. If 45 degrees don't work, go "mean" at 90 degrees.
If you can't get him to do so much as wince, still keep ahold of the lock. If you provide enough torque to the wrist and its gonna break... it doesn't matter if the guy can feel it or not, its gonna break.
  In class you can't break his wrist 'cause thats just plain mean, but you should know at what point he should be writhing in pain and so you let up. Becareful when you have him use the technique in the beginning. Without feeling the pain he isn't going to properly respect the technique and will be a little rougher with it than someone who knows the pain of a wristlock intimately.
   If on the street and you don't want to break his wrist, keep ahold of the technique, use an inside elbow to the solar plexus and then thread his elbow between your forearm and bicept. Drop your outside hand to grab his wrist and then grab your own wrist with your inside hand and apply an armlock/keylock/shoulder lock. Its possible that he will be able to feel pain in his shoulder but not his wrist.  Or for a more basic response, just change direction and try for an armbar or inverted wristlock/"S" Lock. If you try all of your joint manipulations and strikes and nothing seems to be phasing him, start ripping off his skin to see what model of terminator he is so that the authorities know which missile to use... then run.


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## Yari (Mar 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> 
> *If you try all of your joint manipulations and strikes and nothing seems to be phasing him, start ripping off his skin to see what model of terminator he is so that the authorities know which missile to use... then run. *



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

/Yari


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 20, 2002)

I heard Arnold has gone into pest control.  He no longer does Movies.

Now he is the............

ready.......

X-Terminnator

:rofl: 

:asian:


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## Kirk (Mar 20, 2002)

> _ Originally Posted By GD7_
> Now he is the............
> 
> ready.......
> ...




Boooooooooooo! Hisssssssssssss!!! 

:biggun:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 20, 2002)

:lol:


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## Klondike93 (Mar 21, 2002)

:redeme: 




:asian:


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## Kirk (Mar 21, 2002)

I would've thrown tomatoes, but I like my *** exactly where it is,
thank you very much.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2002)

That's funny!:rofl:


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## Yari (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *I would've thrown tomatoes, but I like my *** exactly where it is,
> thank you very much.   *




And that is were?


:rofl: 


/Yari


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## fist of fury (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *I would've thrown tomatoes, but I like my *** exactly where it is,
> thank you very much.   *


On your shoulders


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## Kirk (Mar 21, 2002)

:armed: :knight: :duel: :zap: :bird: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2002)

Exact Body part placement seems to be a real issue here!:rofl:


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## kickyou (Mar 21, 2002)

Sure size matters..The bigger they are the lower and harder I hit.But no matter how big a guy is I have yet to see one stay on their feet and not have tears in their eyes when I decide to punt their groin into the next state.Size matters in the way that I fight that individual,for a medium or small opponent I start with some simple moves and work my way up to the hardcore stuff, but when they are huge I simply go to the hardcore stuff so that I can get them off their feet and down to my level.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2002)

I ain't gonna let you anywhere around my groin so you can make  PenisButter !     LOL  (to the next state..... geez)  sounds like he could be one of my students!       lol


:asian:


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## kickyou (Mar 21, 2002)

Sir I am a female.But if you tech like my instructor teacxhed she taught us if you have to use it go full out,not half way.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2002)

If you ever have to use your Art..........

Never kick a woman in the testicles and never strike anyone below the soles of their feet.

:asian:


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## Ronin (Mar 21, 2002)

As a cop I have found out everyone may not feel pain on the same level.  But with my handy dandy taser its takes down anyone.  Then the kenpo gets pulled out of my bag of tricks.   But there is no one totally insensitive to pain.  Every man has his weakness.  In my case it may be a jelly donut........Oh the sweet sweet jelly.......


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## Kirk (Mar 21, 2002)

Now I'm not trying to knock the jelly donut, it's a fine meal in
itself, but it doesn't compare to the sweet miracle goodness,
known only as "the oreo".  :rofl: :rofl:   

That's wild that you're a cop, you probably get a lot of real life
experience with Kenpo.  A guy at my school is a state prison
guard, and guys are CONSTANTLY getting in trouble, or attacking
guards, so he gets to try out everything he learns in a short
amount of time.  I don't even your jobs, but I envy how you get
to see the real life applications of what you're learning.


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## Ronin (Mar 21, 2002)

well we are all in the same crazy world no matter what job we have.


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## Turner (Mar 22, 2002)

How many instructors teach their students to go for the groin? I personally don't. I advise against it because often times (on a guy, especially the tough guys who don't feel much pain anywhere else) special measures will be taken to protect it. I've had my share of scrapes and I've managed to be banged in the groind and bang others there too... its not the fight stopper many think it to be. In an actual fight I've never seen someone get kicked in the groin and crumple over like they do in the dojo or in movies. Instead they keep fighting pretty hard, get even more ticked off. Once it is over, then they go find a nice little quiet place to fall on their faces and writhe in agony.

I see the groin as a target of opportunity. Hit it when you can, especially at the onset of the confrontation to show the other just how serious you are and perhaps deter someone that isn't that serious about doing you harm. Other wise, throw shin kicks to the inner thigh, knees, stomp on the feet. These do a better job at causing damage and hindering the ability of the combatant to continue the violence. If the lower body was completely open and unprotected, I would certainly prefer to throw a hard shot to the inner or outer thigh than to the groin. I've at least seen them drop a person on the first shot (and been dropped by them too).

But thats from my experience. Your experience may be different giving you a different opinion.


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## kickyou (Mar 22, 2002)

Well.....The guys I have done it on dropped like babies.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 22, 2002)

They drop when I kick em there too!! 

But I supose he could have come across the monkey with the brass balls:rofl: :rofl: 

:asian:


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## Ronin (Mar 23, 2002)

You must practice Miyagi crane technique, if do right no can defense.


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## Ronin (Mar 23, 2002)

ohhhh I have made yellow belt no one can stop me now!!!


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 23, 2002)

Watch out the Ronin is loose....


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## Rainman (Mar 24, 2002)

Choice of weapon (for penetration and pinpoint acuracy) and angle of incidence are important when striking vital targets.  Even if the strike is not fight ending it will have a cause and effect.  The person may drop his guard exposing his head (target creation).  The blow may land but cause only a slight hesitation (an opertunity).  

 :asian:


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## kickyou (Mar 24, 2002)

You go Ronin.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 24, 2002)

My ramblings have got me to Blue Belt !!!:rofl: 

:asian:


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## kickyou (Mar 24, 2002)

Well just keep rambling your way to black belt


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

:rofl:


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## kickyou (Mar 24, 2002)

goldendragon.LOL


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

Im getting close to that ritual thingy.....


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## kickyou (Mar 24, 2002)

Don't worry I will "kickyou"


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

I'm gonna go get me a steel cup then!!


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## kickyou (Mar 24, 2002)

Golden,

you may need one.:rofl: :boing2:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 24, 2002)

Double thickness fur lined!:rofl:


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## kickyou (Mar 24, 2002)

Here it comes are you ready?


:cheers: 

:drink2tha :samurai:


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 24, 2002)

Yes size can be a factor, but too many people look at it as the most important factor.  It can not be dismissed but it is not the end all to be all in a fight.  Proper a techniques and timing can easily turn the it  tide in a fight situation.


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## Slade (Mar 25, 2002)

In some instances, size is a definite helpful thing.  I'm 5'7 165 pounds.  I don't consider myself small or huge.  I feel a well balance attack of speed and power is good.  Being big is great don't get me wrong.  But in my opinion, if you do the technique properly you don't need to be concerned about size.  If someone bigger is attacking me, I'm not gonna give them a chance to do what they need to do.   So in a nutshell, I think it comes down to reaction time.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kickyou _
> *Here it comes are you ready?
> :cheers:
> :drink2tha :samurai: *



Do I have to.....?


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## Ronin (Mar 28, 2002)

what are we talking about???


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 28, 2002)

I'm in a training horse position......... waiting.....

:asian:


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## tonbo (Apr 1, 2002)

Anyone remember seeing "Princess Bride"?

As the Ninja Turtles put it, in another movie....."Well, ya know what they say.....'The bigger they are...'...."   "Yeah, the more bones they break".

I get the opportunity to spar and train with guys of all sizes and shapes (ladies, too).  Size has its advantage.  I stand 6'2" and am a fairly fit 212 lbs.  My instructor is smaller than me, but hits like a convoy of trucks.  I've seen him take down guys that have a foot of height on him, and guys that have 100 or more pounds weight advantage over him.  

I think the advantages of being big are numerous, but I would say that for being shorter, too.  Same with the fat/skinny debate.  What it all boils down to, in my opinion, is the essence of Kenpo:  it's an *individual* art, both for the attacker and the attackee.  Against a shorter guy, I will use a slightly different tactic.  Against a taller guy, I'm going for the base.  I will aim for the legs, knees, and groin as much as possible.  I will also try to play *my* game, not his:  stay out of his comfort zone.

Does it work?  *laughs* Sometimes.  Sparring the bigger guys is rewarding, sometimes (when I can pull off my plan), and a headache others (when my braincase gets rattled by a connecting shot I that I blocked with my face).

I won't say that size doesn't matter.  It does.  But it matters for *everyone*, not just the tall or the buff.  Your size, speed, and build are your toolset.  Learn to use them in the largest variety of situations, and you will be much better off.

Good question to raise, Kirk!!  

Peace--


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## Klondike93 (Apr 1, 2002)

> My instructor is smaller than me, but hits like a convoy of trucks



My instructor is like that, goes about 160 maybe 5'8 or 5'9 looks like a geek, but boy can that guy hit!!!  


:asian:


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## daniel_r (Apr 3, 2002)

I agree size can be a factor but everyone has a weakness you could be the biggest guy in the world but get caught clean on the jaw and theres a good chance your gonna go down.... take for example a boxer like Sugar Ray Leonard he aint the biggest guy in the world yet won titles at 5 different weight divisions. You can be the smallest person but speed and skill can make a whole lotta difference.

Maybe not the best example but all i could think of at the time :idea:


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## Hollywood1340 (Apr 11, 2002)

But I've found it's not the bigger they are the harder they fall, it's the bigger they are the harder they hit!


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## FLY (Apr 12, 2002)

> I think the advantages of being big are numerous, but I would say that for being shorter, too. Same with the fat/skinny debate. What it all boils down to, in my opinion, is the essence of Kenpo: it's an *individual* art, both for the attacker and the attackee. Against a shorter guy, I will use a slightly different tactic. Against a taller guy, I'm going for the base. I will aim for the legs, knees, and groin as much as possible. I will also try to play *my* game, not his: stay out of his comfort zone.
> 
> Does it work? *laughs* Sometimes. Sparring the bigger guys is rewarding, sometimes (when I can pull off my plan), and a headache others (when my braincase gets rattled by a connecting shot I that I blocked with my face).
> 
> I won't say that size doesn't matter. It does. But it matters for *everyone*, not just the tall or the buff. Your size, speed, and build are your toolset. Learn to use them in the largest variety of situations, and you will be much better off.



Although the little bit of experience that I have here has strictly been in a sparring situation, I agree 100%.  Being 6' 185lbs,(with somewhat long legs and arms.../insert monkey smily face here/..
:rofl: ) I generally have a reach advantage on many people that come to our sparring classes.  There are, of course, a few guys who tower over me and outweigh me by 70 - 90 lbs.
Personally, I love to kick.  I am fully aware of the higher degree of risk related to kicking high, especially ariels, but I do them (attempt to ) anyways.  BUT....only very rarely will I ever attempt any kick much higher that the waist when matched against someone with a longer kicking range than I have.  I have had to adapt my strategy when fighting these bigger guys (get in close quick and stay there, hands constantly moving) and it seems to have worked for me 'cause I'm not getting kicked in the head (and everywhere else) anymore.  
With the smaller guys I fair better keeping them in MY kicking range and TRYING not to allow them into THEIR punching range where they are more of a threat to me.
To make a long story short(er), IMHO, every opponent demands a modified strategy based on their and your ability.
However, this is all related strictly to my experience in sparring.

In a REAL fight (which I have NO personal experience in as an adult) I believe that one must be aware of their opponents size and advantages/disadvantages that that may offer, but do not dwell on the size of your opponent.  IMHO, size is merely a component of the total equation.  speed + strength[inner/outer] + size/weight + luck + training + balance + #of friends around etc..... = winner (or something like that )



:asian:


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## FLY (Apr 12, 2002)

> I have had to adapt my strategy when fighting these bigger guys (get in close quick and stay there, hands constantly moving) and it seems to have worked for me 'cause I'm not getting kicked in the head (and everywhere else) anymore.



forgot to add......  Not getting kicked in the head AS MUCH :boxing:  :rofl: :rofl: 

:asian:


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## Seig (May 11, 2002)

I know, old thread....
I am a bug guy, yet short.  Size can make a big difference and sometimes it makes no difference at all.  Speed+Technique=Power.
Ok nuff said, what I really wanted to address were some of the comments on the groin strike.  The groin strike can be extremely effective, even against women, if used in the proper sequence.  Let's face it, if you are in an active confrontation, adrenalin is flowing.  Adrenalin contains endorphins.  Endorphins are the bodies natural pain killer (side note, morphine is synthetic endorphins(albeit on steroids)).  When you strike someone hard enough to normally inflict pain, the body sends about half the available endorphins to the site of injury.  When you make the second strike, the body sends half of the remaining half, and so on until you have struck 3 or 4 times.  The groin shot should not be a first strike tactic in the real world unless you catch someone completely unaware.  In that situatin the body has to do an adrenalin/endorphin dumo and it takes a second or two.  But, if you make the groin strike the third or fourth target, it can inflict mind numbing pain instantly.  I like to tell my students, hit until the brain goes into overload.  My Sensei used the analogy of a gun fight.  "Ok Mike, we're going to have a gun fight.  I'm gonna give you a .44 magnum with 1 round and I will use a .22 with 15 rounds, who wins?"  Me:"Well, if I hit you, I do"  Sensei:"yes, *IF* you hit me.  If you miss, I'm gonna unload on you.  The first round may not hurt much, you may not even know you have been hit.  The second one will let you know you have been hit, the third one is really going to sting, the fourth one will hurt like hell and so on..."  He proved this many times and my Sensei makes Godzilla look like a cute little lizard.


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## Turner (May 11, 2002)

I agree, as a series of strikes the groin shot is good to go. Sadly, many people think that it is the end all technique... that if you punt a guy in the groin he will fall down in the fetal position and just lay there groaning. I've seen that happen, but its mostly because of the guys ego. If he just sucks it up and presses on other people will think that he comes in a small package and so he gets over dramatic and winds up actually feeling the excruciating pain to salve his ego. I've seen this happen time and time again in class and on the street. 

In class you practice with someone and accidently tap em in the groin and they are down for a good five minutes. You spar with the same person and punt them in the groin, they'll feel it later, but it doesn't stop them. Some of this is due to the flow of endorphines, the rest is due to ego.

In fighting and in sparring I've been kicked and punched both solidly and grazed with strikes to the groin. It hurts a WHOLE LOT, but never has it been anything to put me out of commission. I've seen a lot of people go for the shot and then hesitate because they expect to see me fall over into the fetal position. You can never allow that type of thing to enter into your head. Upon completition of a technique in a fight and in sparring you should expect to see them still standing and start flowing into another technique.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 11, 2002)

balls of steele!:asian:


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## Seig (May 11, 2002)

As far as getting hit in the groin in class, I tell ALL of my male students, "Wear a cup.  This is a rule; if you choose to ignore this rule and get nailed, go outside and cry.  I do NOT want to hear about it.  If you insist on falling down on my floor and crying, I will drag you outside by your collar or the scruff of the neck."  Turns out, most of the guys have become very resilient to groin strikes, the dummys refuse to wear a cup.


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## Klondike93 (May 11, 2002)

When we do systema, we are told to take our cups off so we can learn to get that out of harms way. I'll tell though I feel uncomfortable doing it. I trust no one even me.  When sparring it's a must because the groin is a legal target here in Colorado.
It tends to be a good equalizer when fighting a kicker (time for a cup check).  


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 11, 2002)

Like it or not.... a cup check is what  you need.  Liability can kill you!

Make sure they have proper safety gear on...........! or be prepared for the consequences!

:asian:


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## Seig (May 12, 2002)

In WV, I don't have a liability for that.  I have a written rule that requires them, that coupled with a liability waiver that is binding in this state.  If they choose to ignore the written rule, they are accepting the responsibility for an "inherently dangerous" activity.


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## CraneWings (May 12, 2002)

Size can matter, but being small is an advantage aslo.  I think when you are small it is better than being big.  Big guys fall harder.  Small ones bounce back.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 12, 2002)

bout that....... I've seen some pretty "bouncy" big guys and some pretty frail smaller people......

:asian:


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## Seig (May 12, 2002)

I've seen some of the big guys crack the concrete and then get back up and laugh.


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## Klondike93 (May 12, 2002)

> I've seen some pretty "bouncy" big guys



I'm thinking, Weebles wobble but they won't fall down  :rofl: 


:asian:


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## Seig (May 14, 2002)

Let's look at it this way,
Question: "Does size matter?"
Examples:
1.  David and Goliath
2.  Titanic
Answer:  It may be a factor, not necessarily a deciding one.


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## Yari (May 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Let's look at it this way,
> Question: "Does size matter?"
> ...



Ot what about "war of the worlds" ? 

But it boils down to alot of small what if's , and dependencies

/Yari


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## Seig (May 15, 2002)

Exactly.  To say size is the issue or not has too many what ifs to have a straight forward answer.


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## tonbo (May 15, 2002)

.....BUT, it is only *one* of many elements, no?

Size matters, but so do:

1)  Speed
2)  Luck
3)  Intelligence
4)  Weather (if outside)
5)  Layout of the area
6)  "Friends" or others on one side or the other
7)  Training
8)  Inebriation (either side drunk or otherwise hindered?)
9)  Available weapons
10) ......

You get the point.  Size matters.  But it ain't the do-all end-all.  To paraphrase a good point I heard once:

"Yeah, knowing is half the battle.  LOTS of things are half the battle.  I want to know what is ALL of the battle"

Peace--


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## Goldendragon7 (May 15, 2002)

Several good points in your post...... you sound like you almost know that these are some of what was originally called the  "8 Considerations" but now called the "Preparatory Considerations" (8 of them)  Infinite Insights Vol I, chapter 11, pages 101-114.

Acceptance 
Environment
Range
Position
Maneuvers
Targets
Natural Weapons
Natural Defenses

:asian:


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## tonbo (May 16, 2002)

......ya know, I *have* read the Infinite Insights series......again, and again.....and am reading them, uh....again.....

Somewhere, somehow, SOME of that might just stick in my head....heheh.... 

Actually, glad to see that some of it seems to have stuck.  Now, if I can just get all the insights on the universal pattern to find their place in my poor puny brain.....

:asian: 

Peace--


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## Goldendragon7 (May 16, 2002)

Keep going  through it untill you memoriozed the main chapters like me!

easy!:rofl: 

:asian:


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## tonbo (May 16, 2002)

.....and that takes what, about 10 years?   

I had better get started......with 5 books to memorize, I should be just about ready by the time I pass away....hehe...

Assuming my brain can hold it all, of course.....:rofl: 

Peace--


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## Goldendragon7 (May 16, 2002)

if you but try........ young one........

:jedi1:


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## tonbo (May 16, 2002)

I *will*, Master Yoda.....er.....Conatser!!!

And I will not turn to the dark side, either!!

:asian: 

:jedi1:     :jediduel: 

Peace--


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## brianhunter (May 16, 2002)

You know my Grandpa was not a brilliant philosopher or an expert martial artist one day while in school I was whining about size bullies etc. and being the old school guy he is he told me 2 things 

1) There is no such thing as a fair fight
    (Is your view of fair play going to be exact to your opponents?? maybe he was right)

2) Everyone has either nuts or kneecaps get in a good shot to one of those and you have enough time to get out or away.


Ive been surprised by small guys dominated by big guys and I think Mr. Parker was dead on we he said something along the lines of fearing no man but respecting all!


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## Goldendragon7 (May 16, 2002)

Mr. Parker used to tell me the definition of a fair fight was........
"When your opponents definition of a fair fight is "equally matched"  ...... with yours"

:asian:


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## Seig (May 16, 2002)

Or, like they say here, never bring a knife to a gun fight.


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## arnisador (May 16, 2002)

At the arnis camp everyone was teaching empty hand against knife, knife against knife, sword and knife against sword and knife...I volunteered to teach gun against knife but got no takers.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 17, 2002)

providing there were no bullets involved.

:asian:


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## Seig (May 17, 2002)

Just remember, a gun loaded with blanks can kill!  Remember John Eric Hecksum ?


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## Klondike93 (May 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Just remember, a gun loaded with blanks can kill!  Remember John Eric Hecksum ? *



Brandon Lee


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## Goldendragon7 (May 17, 2002)

But "I" have the gun........ hee hee  (what, you thought I was crazy)??!!! 

:asian:


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## Seig (May 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *
> 
> Brandon Lee *


That was a real bullet.  John Eric's was a blank. He was goofing off, put it to his head and pulled the trigger, the wadding from the blank pushed a piece of his skull into his brain.


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## Seig (May 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *But "I" have the gun........ hee hee  (what, you thought I was crazy)??!!!
> 
> :asian: *


I have been asked on occasiion to do self defense seminars for groups.  The first thing I am always asked is what I would do if someone waled up to me, put a gun to the back of my head and demanded my wallet.  I generally, at this point have one of them come up behind me and do it.  They are always amazed when I slowly raise one hand, reach behind me with the other, take out my wallet and hand it to the "attacker."


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## Turner (May 18, 2002)

> That was a real bullet. John Eric's was a blank. He was goofing off, put it to his head and pulled the trigger, the wadding from the blank pushed a piece of his skull into his brain



Sounds like he's a candidate for the Darwin Award...

I've often read, even here on MartialTalk that children shouldn't play with weapons. I've owned knives for as long as I could remember and I've used guns since I was seven. First thing I was taught about a gun was that it wasn't a toy and if you ever pointed it at something it was ONLY because you intended to kill or destroy it. (And if I was ever caught goofing off with either a gun or knife I had better be the one that I intended to kill because if I didn't accidently do it to myself, my Dad would do it on purpose.) Lessons like that stick with you and I guess Mr. Eric should have had a father like mine.

There is no excuse for gun accidents like that or things like Columbine and all the other school shootings. I could really go off on this topic because it really makes me sick. There are too many irresponsible parents in the world and it is no wonder that the world is in the shape that it is. There aren't enough people who've stepped up to be a positive role model. Look at the people that kids respect today... gangsters, drug addicts and other dishonorable/disreputable people. Its pathetic. Even religious leaders are turning out to have less worth than pond scum. As if I don't have enough of my own problems, now I gotta go change the world... Good, I finally get a challenge! Woo Hoo!


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## Seig (May 18, 2002)

I'd argue with you, but why?  I agree with you.  Have Whup-***, will travel.


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## Stick Dummy (May 18, 2002)

Seig,

Nice point, getting shot is a pain.......

  Best case scenario, they take your wallet and scram,  a few calls and credit cards can be cancelled & ID re-issued.

 worst case - BANG! 


  There is no clear cut answer due to situational and enviromental issues.  Add in other factors like a wife, girlfriend, or children present during such a situation, and what you may think and DO can change from traditional dojo training.

  A few weeks ago my club did some training HG vs Knife (or Empty Hands) disarms, and deflections for follow ups. 

  It came down to the skill level of the particular individual no matter what the weapon, and even the "suprise' variable of someone knowing Counter disarms or even Counter-Counter disarms.

 Personally, real world I'd rather give out a pair of 230 gr. Federal "gilded coins" to the miscreant and send them on their way.

 Be Safe and train for reality


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## tonbo (May 20, 2002)

"Have Whup-***, will travel"???

ROFLMAO!!!!

:rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl: 

Oh, I'm gonna have to use that one......

Peace--


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## Nightingale (May 20, 2002)

I've had an unarmed someone try to steal my purse... he asked me for it...I handed it to him. then he grabbed my arm. that was his mistake. I walked away. he didn't. then I drove to a well lit parking lot in front of the police station and proceeded to have a panic attack.  mostly my fault for being in the wrong place by myself... <note to self: if the concert gets out late, and you're alone, ask someone to walk you to your car...especially if you parked in an alley. > it was broad daylight when I got there, and I didn't think anything of where I had parked. It was five or six blocks away from the coffee house where the concert was, but it was on a crowded street with a lot of people around...didn't occur to me that a street that is crowded at 6 pm will not always be so populated at midnight, even on a saturday night. <smacks forehead>.

I didn't have any problems giving up the purse...because I never, ever carry my keys, driver's license or credit card in my purse.  Those live either in my jeans pockets or the inside pocket of my leather jacket.  The only thing in the purse is a little bit of cash and a lot of girly stuff like lipstick...and hey, if a guy wants my lipstick that bad, he's welcome to it.  I did get to keep the purse though...for some reason, the guy wanted to lie there unconscious on the pavement... not sure if it was my foot hitting his chin or his head colliding with the concrete that knocked him out, but hey, if someone wants to steal the purse, fine...if they grab my arm and imply that they want more than the purse, then we have a problem.  scariest moment of my life. I don't go anywhere alone after dark anymore.


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## tonbo (May 20, 2002)

> I walked away. he didn't.



Then you did your job.  And you are right......that was his mistake.

Joe Hyams, in "Zen in the Martial Arts" was asked what he would do if someone demanded his wallet.  His response:  "Make change".

I think that is the essence of the point.  Mugger wants the car, the money, the purse, even the lipstick--hey, give it to 'em.  Those can be replaced.  However, when the knife starts waving too close to you or the loved one, or the gun gets leveled off at those same people......the game has changed, and it is time to open the can.

Nightingale, congratulations.  I can't say I understand what you went through, since I haven't had quite the same experience; however, I have honestly got to say that I am glad you were able to tell the story.  This forum would be much poorer without ya...

And I'm pretty sure that it was your kick that put that stupid sucka out.  Maybe meeting the concrete was enough to rattle that pea brain of his into some semblance of intelligence, and maybe not.  In either case, I hope you never meet him or his type again (I'm not afraid for YOU, mind you.....I'm more concerned that our educational system is turning out these geniuses.... ).

Peace and good wishes--


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## Nightingale (May 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *
> (I'm not afraid for YOU, mind you.....I'm more concerned that our educational system is turning out these geniuses.... ).
> ...



Hey...I'm a teacher! LOL.  Honestly, the problem is more parents than teachers... we teachers, at least most of us, try our best (and we're sure as heck not in it for the money...I was making $21K last year) but we don't get the support from the parents making the kid do the homework or enforcing consequences for good grades.  When you tell a child "I'm going to call your parents tonight to discuss this..." and the kid looks at you and says "Go ahead. They don't care."  you know that as a teacher there's nothing more you can do.  Without a parent at home making sure there are consequences for poor behavior or poor grades, a teacher can only do so much.


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## Battousai (May 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> They are always amazed when I slowly raise one hand, reach behind me with the other, take out my wallet and hand it to the "attacker." *



 Yes thats a good point, but what I think people are mostly looking for in gun self defense is the option of trying to disarm the gunman. Ofcourse its much safer to just give away your money or whatever, but when it gets to personel injury, in women's cases rape, thats were gun disarmament is needed.

 For instance if someone is in the situation and they are very sure that the assailant is going to kill them no matter what they do, this is were gun disarmament comes into play. 

 Something I hate is all of the martial art schools out there that not only do not teach gun disarmament, but also tell everyone that askes that there is no self defense against a gun, saying things like "at that point all you can do is pray," and other nonsense implying that there are no techniques that can save you.


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## tonbo (May 20, 2002)

Nightingale, you are soooooo right.  My wife was a teacher for a while, too....high school.  She was the same way: tried her hardest, didn't make any money, got no thanks, and some parents *still* didn't care or do their part.....yet griped when the teacher "failed".  Hey, folks.....it takes two to tango, ya know?

More power to ya, Nightingale, and no offense meant.  I'm behind you.  As a parent, I try to reinforce what the teachers teach, and add a bit of respect in on top of that.  I only wish more parents would......

And Battousai, you are WAY right.  I am in the school that says that you don't fight a gun just to look cool or see if you can do it.  That is a last stage resort--i.e., if someone you know, or yourself, is going to get harmed by the gun or gun wielder, then all bets are off, and everything is legal to disarm it.

There is no defense against a gun?  Heh....wanna bet?  That's what the guy holding the gun *wants* you to think.  I think most serious arts have some sort of defense or disarm against weapons.  Problem is, the question is whether or not those are *effective*.  Disarms should be direct, to the point, and allow you to maintain control of the weapon while getting out of the path of the damage.  Anything else is asking for trouble.  And shorter techniques are more likely to be remembered under duress, no? 

I look at it this way.....my brother once said of fighting: "Hey, I may not win, but at least they'll know I was there".  If someone's gonna mess me up with a weapon, I may not succeed in getting it away from him, but I'm sure as hell going to use all my training to try.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Thanks for the good point, Battousai!!

Peace--


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## Nightingale (May 20, 2002)

my instructor will teach the gun defense techniques, but only if you bug him a lot, and not until you're a black belt.  like learning weapons, the gun defense techniques are not part of our regular training or belt requirements, but if we wish to supplement our education with them, we can.  I, however, am not a black belt yet, and therefore do not know them, and am choosing to concentrate on my required material and my weapons of choice (bo, kama, chuks) at this time.  I do, however, plan on learning the entire parker kenpo system eventually.   Techniques are ideas, and the more ideas you try, the more likely one of em is gonna work.  In the situation described in my earlier post, I used half an orange belt technique, half a purple belt technique, and the end of another purple belt technique.  It worked, it flowed, and it was instinct.  I didn't think. I reacted first and panicked later.  That's what makes karate work.  You have reactions in your muscle memory and they're so ingrained that you react without thinking.  If you take time to think, you die, because you think about the situation, you start to process it, and you panic and freeze up. When someone grabs me in a certain way, 13 years of training has told my body to react in a certain way.  Because of my training, I was able to react first and panic later.  And you do panic later.  Your brain runs through all the what ifs and then you get scared, not because of what did happen, but of what could have happened.  When I reacted, I wasn't scared. and for some reason, I even checked to make sure the guy was breathing before I left...no idea why I did that. I should've just gotten my tail outa there, but in that situation, you're not thinking. its instinct.


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## tonbo (May 20, 2002)

Nightingale, you did just what you were trained to do......it's kinda the same thing that happens with soldiers in combat:  you are trained with "stimulus, response, stimulus, response" often enough, when the stimulus comes, the response follows as a matter of course.  You were threatened, and you reacted appropriately.  (And damn well, I may add!!)

While we do teach weapon disarms below Black rank, it is explored in greater depth after Black.  Basically, ya gotta get control of your own movement before tackling something big, I guess.....which explains why I am still working towards it....  However, we do drills with weapons and disarms when we hit the brown ranks, and work with students on disarms that they come up with for their own tests.  That way, they get to see what their own individual strengths and methods are.  And we test 'em hard, too.....if you are disarming guns, we try to use the realistic rubber versions instead of the foam or wooden ones (to test the weight/feel of more realistic guns) and also use cap guns or dart guns from time to time (to test reaction in pulling the technique off).  Adds a bit of realism....

I've heard of guys using actual weapons with wax bullets to test their techniques, but I haven't actually gone that far yet.  Great merit to training like that, but I don't think I'm ready for it yet....LOL...

Peace--


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## Klondike93 (May 20, 2002)

Good to see you tested the principles, made it in one piece, and showed a little compassion when it was over. 

It is a scary thing to go through and you did better than most, congrats!!

:asian:


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## Seig (May 21, 2002)

Nightingale!  Good for you!
I've been very fortunate, over the years, I have had the opportunity to test my "skills" both in and out of the ring.  I've seen attacking maces flow into thundering hammers.  As a "security" man in several rough bars I've had to use more than a fair share when discussion failed.  It's a big help when you know what you train with will help.  I'm a big proponent of talk first, fight later.  After one particularly nasty engagement in a bar I worked in, I had another would be attacker ask me how I would do against a gun.  I told him honestly  "That Depends.  If over about six feet away, I'm most likely a dead man, unless I too have a gun.  Which you have no way of knowing.  If under about six feet away, you are definatley a dead man."  He calmed down, finished his drink and left.  When I was a bit younger and still full of piss and vinegar, I had a boss that was Vietnam Era Special Forces.  One night, we were sitting having a beer and this guy was trying to start in with us.  Yes, there was a woman involved, my buddies wife to bew exact.  Finally my buddy got tired of the threats and said to the man, "Look, you either know you can take me, or you only think you can.  If you know you can, is it worth the effort?  If you only think you can, is it worth the risk?"  That was a show stopper, and an experience I learned from.  That particular saying has saved me form a lot of ugliness.  Of course the fact that I am short and the size of your average (albeit low) brick wall may help.  There is always someone who thinks you are a victim.  Show them the error of your ways.  The only way to do that is to keep training hard and ask "What if".:soapbox:


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## tonbo (May 21, 2002)

> "Look, you either know you can take me, or you only think you can. If you know you can, is it worth the effort? If you only think you can, is it worth the risk?"



Very nice.  I like that.  You are right, that would be a show stopper.

In class, many times, we have talked about appearances and perceptions.  We are basically told that, all things being equal (when are they ever, right?), don't worry about the loudmouth who's telling you how he's gonna whip everyone around 'cuz he's so bad.  He's giving you all you need to know, which is that he's not all action.

Worry about the quiet guy in the corner who smiles a lot and says very little.  He is an unknown, and he could be anything.

That quote is priceless, and just what I have been looking for.  

I used to work with a guy who had something similar.  Once someone was talking loud to him, and getting a little too close.  This guy just said, "Look, pal....the only way you're gonna find out how tough I am is if you try me.....and then, you'd better be damn sure you want to find out."  Fight never came off.    

Talk first, fight second.  But if you gotta fight, get the job done.  Once again, good job, Nightingale!!

Peace--


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## Goldendragon7 (May 21, 2002)

Great saying,

Now just where did Brock dig you up at...... you are not the normal cut.........:rofl: 

:asian:


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## JD_Nelson (May 21, 2002)

If your feeling froggy.....Jump!!!

Of course high school mascott in the area is a GreenBack.

~~Salute~~   :asian: 

Jeremy


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## tonbo (May 21, 2002)

Way, way, back in my youth, I worked as a waiter in a Mexican restaurant.  One of the cooks used that phrase all the time:

"Anytime you're feeling froggy, buddy.....just jump!!"

My wife loves that one.  She thinks the imagery is too funny.....and I gotta agree...

There's a song my dad used to sing (an old folksong) that had another one I like:

"I got one fist of iron, the other of steel, and if the first don't getcha, then the second one will"

Peace--


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## Nightingale (May 21, 2002)

I think the quote you were referring to was Seig's, not mine.

However, to answer your other question, Mr. Brock has been training me off and on since I was 14.  Been training in kenpo off and on since age 10... damn...13 years total...just realized I've been doing karate more than half my life. LOL. I feel old now.


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## Battousai (May 21, 2002)

One fun way to practice gun disarms is with paint guns. 

 One of my friends tried it, with a gun held to his face (I assume he had the paint gear face thing on), 1 or 2 feet away. He told the shooter to fire as soon as he saw him move. They did ten shots, and the defender got hit once in the shoulder.

 The way I think about gun disarmament techniques is like the child's game, were two kids hold their hands out. Kid 1 has their palms facing upward, and kid 2 has their palms facing downward (kid 2's hands are held above kid 1's). Then kid 1 tries to slap one or both of kid 2's hands (you slap the top of kid 2's hands). Generally kid 1 hit's kid 2's hands about 90% of the time.

 I think of this as an illustration directly analogous to gun disarmament. Whenever the gun is at close range its all about who moves first. 

  Usually the gunman will not even be expecting you to try anything. My school teaches not to look them in the eyes and to put your hands up and act defeated. From the front or sides at close range (1 to 3 feet) your hands go up so that the middle of your forearms are on level with the barrel of the gun. 

  With the child's game the other kid is watching intently, waiting to try to move his/her hands without getting hit. But the distance that the slapper's hands have to cover is minimal. With the gun the hands have to travel a greater distance, but the attacker is not suspecting any resistance. 

  It all boils down to who moves first, if both attacker and defender have the same reaction speed its hard to tell who will win. The trained martial artist should have a higher reaction speed though, compaired to the street thug.  


 Another method of training that higher belts can do is to shoot each other with blow backs, (I think thats what they are called, like the rubber bullets mentioned above).


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## Goldendragon7 (May 21, 2002)

Those hurt!!!!!!!


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## Seig (May 22, 2002)

Only if you get hit


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## Turner (May 22, 2002)

Practicing with paintball guns is all fine and good, I'll do that when I get a class going... but why do all gun counters <I despise the word defense, it makes me feel like a victim, which I never want to be.> used by martial artists require that you are within a few feet of the guy. What are you supposed to do if the person is standing 10 to 30 feet away? What are you supposed to do if he does the old "keep-the gun-concealed-in-the-pocket-and-shoot-through-the-cloth" deal which locks the gun in his hand to where you'd have almost an impossible time disarming him?

At 10-30 feet: 
RUN AWAY! The average human being is a notoriously bad shot when it comes to hitting a moving target. It becomes increasingly harder to hit a target that is moving. Fighter pilots preparing for dogfights recognize that the proper angle is imperative in survival. Your vision is an open ended triangle. When people are close their bodies are wedged in the closed end and are easy to hit, but as they move away their bodies become smaller and fill a smaller and smaller number of degrees. So picking the proper degree to shoot because more complicated, especially if the person is bouncing between the degrees while reducing the number of degrees... Running towards the gun weilder is making it easy for him to wedge you in his open ended triangle and squeeze of a shot. Not a good thing. RUN AWAY!

If you are cornered and can not RUN AWAY you have to take the chance of being trapped in that open ended triangle. So run extremely quickly but with a broken pattern so the he can't track you as easily.

At close range:
Close is also good. Why? Because this open ended triangle has no physical barriers so you are able to move outside of it. The closer you are, the easier it is to step outside of his feild of view which requires him to turn to reobtain visual and line up the weapon. This only reiterates what you already know.. MOVE MOVE MOVE. You stop moving and you're dead. <period> If the gun weilding dude has the weapon in his pocket, consider that an advantage. A person can move his head and arms fairly quickly to track your movements, but if his weapon is locked into position he has to move his whole body to get into alignment and you have all the more time to move and disrupt that movement.

I've heard people sa so many times that you might as well give up if someone points a gun at you. Sure, if they ask for my wallet and i think that will satisfy them, I'll give them my wallet and probably the money that I don't carry in my wallet too. Show a little bit of compassion. If they don't get enough cash from robbing you, they may rob someone stupider than you who will wind up getting killed. How would you like to read that headline: 

20 YEAR OLD KILLED IN MUGGING
John Q. Doe was killed today when he raised his hands too quickly and startled the nervous Evil Z. Deviant, who was hoping the stick-up would get him $20 more dollars to buy drugs for his nightly fix, but instead he got life. Police connected Mr. Deviant to the murder when he attempted to buy drugs from an undercover narcotics officer with bloodstained money matching Mr. Doe's DNA type. Mr. Deviant bragged to the undercover cop that he held-up another individual but only raked in $30 and was forced to hold-up Mr. Doe to collect the $50 needed.

Most people would immediately answer "Better him than me." That is sad. I believe that with martial training/might comes the responsibility to protect all life. If you have the ability to take life, you must protect life. You've been trained in the arts of combat and can think a great deal more clearly and calmly than the average Joe. Show both the mugger and the person who may be the next target a little compassion and courtesy. Many people can understand when I say that you should show respect to the next target, but can't comprehend how you could respect an Evil Deviant.
I've heard some martial wisdom which stated that a fight is like a dance, the two individuals must be in unison. This is mostly speaking of Yin and Yang and not being a mystic or interested that much in Asian philosophy, I don't pay it much mind... But it does have a point. Why should you respect even the most evil human beings and treat them with courtesy? Because they give you an awesome gift. The gift of enmity. The only reason why you train in a 'martial' art is because someone had an enemy and needed to develop skills to protect themselves. Without evil you would have little reason to hone the skills that you are currently honing. If you are like me, the study of the combative skills is a major portion of your life and has improved the quality of your existance a great deal. Is it any wonder the Bible says 'Love thine enemy as thyself?' It makes sense. Your enemies give you power. Having enemies and having a certain amount of fear gives you motivation to get stronger, quicker and more intelligent. Respect and 'love' your enemy. He is the stone that you are sharpened upon. In the midst of your stick-up, call him "Sir" and show the respect he is due for having such an impact in your life.

I heard a story when I was young about a man (we'll call sean)who was held-up at gun point. Sean handed over his wallet and the mugger turned to walk away. Something tugged at Sean's heart. "Sir" he called out, "Here is another $100 that I didn't have in my wallet." The mugger turned back around in shock. "I was leaving and you called me back to take more from you, why?" "Because, my friend, you obviously needed it more than me to be willing to carry the burden of fear of being found out." They continued talking and when the guy left the gun remained with Sean as did a telephone number and an address. With continued talks the man who was a mugger because a productive and honorable member of society... just because someone had a little love and compassion for his enemy.
We live in a faceless world. My life is a perfect example of that. I work in the middle of the night with noone else around. I go home and I sleep and then clean up my apartment, cook dinner, relax by chatting on the net and then go workout and then prepare for work. It is so easy to disconnect from the world around us. We can do all of our shopping over the net. We can order pizza over the net so that we don't even have to talk to a person. It is so sad because we've ceased to really touch the lives of those around us and allow them to touch our lives. Isn't that the exact opposite of what we want to accomplish? How many people think that the world where we live is in a state of decay? I think that CNN did a survey and found that not a single person that they interviewed actually said that the world was getting better. What do we do about it? We seperate ourselves from the world so that we can exist without being impacted by the decay. We react by becoming more and more tolerant to ideals that were blatantly evil in days gone by. Evil flourishes because good men stand by and do nothing.
I am not a tolerant man and I am not prepared to sequester myself inside of my house because I am afraid of the decay making its way into my life. Instead I'm going to fight the things that I disagree with. I'm going to wage war on the evil. And I'm going to step out into the world and stand tall and strong in my beliefs in the hopes that those that come into contact with me will be touched and their lives will be altered for the better.  I WILL change the world and I WILL prevail. One sentance is all it takes for some, sometimes to a person that we've never seen before and will never see again. Yes, that is all it takes to have an impact on someone's life. How many people commit suicide each year because they go through their day without someone noticing them? They kill themselves because they cannot comprehend that someone can and does care for them. I used to say 'Hey, that is perfect! Darwin was right, survival of the fittest.' I'm appalled that I ever said that because its my fault. All of those faces that walked by me in the halls of where I worked or in the cars that drive by me on the street I looked away and took no notice of them. I didn't hold the door open for someone or wasn't courteous to the waitress or person at the check-out. I just wanted to get in and get out as quick as possible, I was so wrapped up in myself that I didn't see someone who was looking for a reason to hang on to life. Someone to just say "hi" or someone who would smile and hold a door open. 

Why is this important to you as a martial artist? Why do you study Kenpo? You want to learn how to protect yourself and the ones that you love. You want to enrich your life by getting in better physical shape or growing mentally and spritually. The best way to enrich your life is to enrich other people's lives. The best way to defend those that you love is to go on the offense and start to change the things that you fear and make the world a safer and better place to live. Action is always faster than reaction. Self defense is reactive in nature. Start being active by making positive changes on your society.
We often get caught up in doing things for ourselves. We're selfish. One of the best ways to be selfish is to be selfless. The more you strive to do for others the more you will obtain in return. Every teacher will tell you that you learn the most when you have to teach. This is true with a lot of things. You will gain more if you share with others. 

The master rambler going off again.


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## Les (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *:boxing:
> 
> ...



I heard it was 
"The bigger they are the harder they hit, and the smaller they are the further they fly"


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## Nightingale (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Les _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



hehe...usually true...but I've seen a pint-size fourteen year old black belt put an adult black belt twice his size through a wall... it was impressive... the kid's an amazing fighter... his dad paid to have the wall fixed, and we were really tempted to have him sign the patch on the wall with the message "Nishaun was here."  but figured that would end up encouraging more people to put holes through the studio walls, so we scrapped that idea.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 23, 2002)

I resemble their remarks......:asian:


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## Seig (May 23, 2002)

The little guys always say to me "Catch me if you can", and then the little buggers run as fast as they can


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