# Candle Punching?



## Nyrotic (Jul 23, 2008)

Ok, so I'm sure by now we've all seen some people using the method of punching out candle flames as a training technique. Hell, I'm sure many of you do, or at least have tried, that method for yourself. After trying it for a few punches myself just about 15 seconds ago, I was able to start punching out a few using my wing chun punch (Without moving any other part of my body other than fist and arm). Now what I noticed was that it became easier for me to punch out the flame when I dropped my fist just a tad at the end of the punch, almost as if I were pushing the air down onto the candle with the punch. Dropping my fist at the end, however, was something my sifu taught me NOT to do, and when I tried punching the way I was taught properly, it became much more difficult to punch out the candle, if only by accidentally dropping my fist without me realising it.

So now I'm wondering, is it really just a neat trick to show people? Or are there real benefits to doing this sort of training. I've yet to ask my sifu about it personally, as it's currently 23:34 here (In Texas), though I'll probably shoot him a call tomorrow about it. Until then, I'm curious as to what my fellow MT'ers think!


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## mook jong man (Jul 24, 2008)

I used to do it with punches and some times i would put the candle on the floor and try it with my low heel kick . 

I don't know if its a trick or not its just a bit of fun , besides someone famous once said " Candles dont fight back ".


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## kaizasosei (Jul 24, 2008)

i think it's good training.  one should just be careful not to hyperextend the elbow too much putting in that oomph.   there are a variety of speed games ive seen especially in cma that seem very positive to me.  

the candle exercise not only practices speed but mostly control and precision, which is one of the most important aspects of striking effectively. 

j


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## Nyrotic (Jul 24, 2008)

Now when you say hyperextend, you basically mean fully straightening the arm after a punch, correct? From what I was taught, assuming the fist is vertical and the elbow is pointing down (Like in Wing Chun), it is perfectly safe to fully extend the arm as long as the force is going completely straight, meaning there is no downwards force on the fist during the punch. Think of it as pulling someones arm straight in order to not put any force past where the elbow can safely bend. My sifu's been practicing the punch that way for close to 20 years now I believe, and as of right now has no joint problems from hyperextending his arm in this manner.

Anywho, thanks for the advice. I'll get to practicing it while punching straight on as I was taught in order to prepare to punch a face, not a candle.


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## thetruth (Jul 24, 2008)

I've never been attacked by a candle.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 24, 2008)

Punching out the candle is good for practice but one must remember that much of what may happen depends on the size of the candle and wick  along with how far away you are from the candle. Now if you are working with a good sized candle and are more than a few feet away from the candle you will get a totally different response from the flame than if your right on top of it. If you get so you can do it from 5-10 feet away your doing something that may be more than moving air.
If nothing else doing this will teach you to concentrate.


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## stickarts (Jul 24, 2008)

I had practiced that when i first started my training and in general it was good to help me build some speed and snap. There are little things you can do to help yourself but the real purpose is not so much the tricks but just to practice your speed.
I also would practice poking a hole in a piece of paper leaving only the hole where your finger broke the paper, without tearing the whole paper.
This helped the ability to do speed breaks.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 24, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> " Candles dont fight back ".


 
I really hate those kinds of quotes. They don't fight back, but to strike just overt one and extinquish it shows a great deal of speed. Boards may not hit back, but to break three with no spacers, and you show a great deal of striking power. To rip a phone book in half takes a great deal of grip strength.

Oh, hyper extension is when you fully lock your arm. That is, you go past 180 degrees. This risks damage to your bicep and the elbow joint.


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## Ninjamom (Jul 24, 2008)

I had an instructor that put out candles by pointing at them.  It has to do with not just the speed of the motion, but using an abrupt stop.  

I realize this is just my opinion (but hey, that's what you asked for), but I don't see the benefit of punching out candles - I don't see the benefit of practicing an abrupt stop (what candle-snuffing reinforces) in a punching motion.  

OTOH, we routinely use the same exercise in our sword class, with the wooden training sword.  Controlling the tip of the sword in a full cutting motion so that it doesn't waver or bobble but comes to a stop at a precise point is desireable, and this motion is reinforced with candle-snuffing.


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## jks9199 (Jul 24, 2008)

There are two ways to put a candle out with a punch (or kick).  The first is to move the hand towards it fast enough and suddenly enough that the fist pushes a wall of air into the candle and extinguishes it.  It's a good drill, in my opinion, for developing a certain sort of speed.  The other way is to snap & withdraw the punch fast enough that the flame is sucked out.  This develops another sort of speed -- important for keeping punches from becoming pushes.

There may be folks out there that can somehow pull the heat from the candle or some other way put it out without an ordinary physics-based cause.  I haven't met any -- but they may be out there.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 24, 2008)

What did the candle do to make you want to punch it? Call you names or something?


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## kaizasosei (Jul 24, 2008)

well, if the situation calls for it or if one can extend the arm safely or carefully enough ok, but i would then still be  a little wary of arm locks too.
i mean, what if the candle rushes? what do you do? 
j


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## shihansmurf (Jul 24, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> What did the candle do to make you want to punch it? Call you names or something?



I just got sick of that candle being such a hot-head......:ultracool

Mark
I love puns.


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## bowser666 (Jul 24, 2008)

People are missing the point.  Candle punching/kicking is not simply a speed technique for striking.  It is also meant as a means to channel Qi and to train focus. These will also in turn improve striking as a side effect.


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## Ninjamom (Jul 24, 2008)

Bowser, I think most of us did get the point - some people may think it focusses ki/qi, but candle punching really is just a cute trick that looks nifty and reenforces bad punching habits.


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## thetruth (Jul 25, 2008)

bowser666 said:


> People are missing the point.  Candle punching/kicking is not simply a speed technique for striking.  It is also meant as a means to channel Qi and to train focus. These will also in turn improve striking as a side effect.



...and if you don't have enough speed and the candle doesn't go out you burn the **** out of your hand.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 25, 2008)

did I not say 





> If you get so you can do it from 5-10 feet away your doing something that may be more than moving air.


if you do oit at that distance or more that is it all just air movement?


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## bowser666 (Jul 25, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> Bowser, I think most of us did get the point - some people may think it focusses ki/qi, but candle punching really is just a cute trick that looks nifty and reenforces bad punching habits.




Cute little nifty trick ?  That itself is a cute statement. It does require focus! Focus training is Qi training. Just one of the many aspects of it anyways. Alot of techniques in MA could then be called nifty little tricks according to your theory. I obviously disagree................

Bad punching habits?  Like how to gauge distance ?  Am I missing something that you are saying ?  Last time I checked gauging distance was critical for striking.


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## Kacey (Jul 25, 2008)

bowser666 said:


> Cute little nifty trick ?  That itself is a cute statement. It does require focus! Focus training is Qi training. Just one of the many aspects of it anyways. Alot of techniques in MA could then be called nifty little tricks according to your theory. I obviously disagree................
> 
> Bad punching habits?  Like how to gauge distance ?  Am I missing something that you are saying ?  Last time I checked gauging distance was critical for striking.



If you are doing such exercises for Qi training, that's up to you - but many of us are not.  That does not make anyone right or anyone wrong - it means that different people have different interpretations of training exercises.

For myself, I've never tried punching at a candle flame - but then, the majority of my candles are in jars, so that creates a separate problem!  With sufficient focus and control, it should be possible to put out a candle flame with a variety of techniques.


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## Ninjamom (Jul 25, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> ....cute trick ... looks nifty ....reenforces bad punching habits.


 

I just re-read my previous post, and I would like to apologize.  My comments were poorly-worded and sound condescending even to me, and that was not at all my intent.  

Bowser, we have a difference of opinion about the primary purpose and value of candle-snuffing.  However, I apologize for the way I stated that difference.


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## bowser666 (Jul 25, 2008)

It is quite all right.  That is the purpose and greatness of training.  There are so many ways to do it.  What works for one may not work for the other etc.....   As long as the end result is the desired result I say.


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## JadeDragon3 (Jul 25, 2008)

When I took my test for my black sash my sifu made the three of us that were testing have to put out a candle flame using a roundhouse kick.  We had to kick above the flame with enough speed to generate enough wind to put the flame out.  If any of us knocked the candle over then that person failed and would not get thier black sash.  I passed the test, one person knocked the candle over, and the other one put the candle flame out.  The one that failed started to cry.


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## Ninebird8 (Jul 30, 2008)

I have found candle punching to be quite useful in developing the proper motion and waist action for fa jing power. One of my three masters, my Sifu in Houston, is the senior student of Dr. Yang Jwing Ming and his candle punching developed from the fa jing of Southern white crane is incredible to watch from 3-4 feet away. Combining candle punching with sand bag training, where the idea is to use the punch to stop the bag rather than send it flying, is also quite useful for developing stopping power. It is a great complementary methodology for developing the movement of chi from waist/hip to shoulder through the elbow expressed out of the hand. But, like another commentator wrote earlier, one must be careful not to overextend the punch, open  hand, or whipping motion as deleterious effects to the shoulder may result.


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## punisher73 (Jul 31, 2008)

CuongNhuka said:


> I really hate those kinds of quotes. They don't fight back, but to strike just overt one and extinquish it shows a great deal of speed. Boards may not hit back, but to break three with no spacers, and you show a great deal of striking power. To rip a phone book in half takes a great deal of grip strength.


 
I agree.  Candles, don't hit back...but neither do heavy bags, wooden dummies, makiwaras, or boards, but we still use those as training devices to help accomplish a certain goal.

I think candle punching can help newer students with their focus.  In our style the emphasis is not the whipping action of the punch, or the retraction part of the strike that "pulls" the flame out.


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