# Why dont you see aikido used in judo?



## Robot Jesus

I see aikidoka throwing grown men like ragdolls. Why dont you see judo fighters adopting aikido throws like we did with wrestling throws?


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## theletch1

Well, to an extent you do.  The entering and redirection of energy in judo is very similar to aikido.  The big difference that I see is how the energy is handled once you've gotten control of it.  The aikido-ka doesn't want to bleed off any more energy than is absolutely necessary to effect the throw and will use the principle of projected energy to break ukes balance while the judo-ka will use the principle of a lever and fulcrum to a greater extent to effect a throw.


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## tntma12

Very well put Letch.  There are many similarities, but different philosophies(sp?) between the two styles.


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## Robot Jesus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr8DJWKI28c

what Im saying is; count the ippons.




there are two possible interpretations to this video. 

One is that this is what aikido can do and no aikidoka in the world wants a gold metal.

Or

This is not what aikido can do.


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## theletch1

That IS what aikido can do when the attack is thrown with intent to take your head off.  Judo competitions are seen from the stand point that both parties know the same thing and are therefore not attacking with the intent to knock out their opponent.  Aikido works great with an attack that is meant to harm you.  When a planted attack or an attack that is not committed is thrown the aikido-ka will use certain dirty little tricks to make uke move in the proper direction.  These tricks don't work so well in competition as they would deal out injuries to your training partner that would make for a short class.  
I believe that you are confusing the goals of the judo-ka as being the same as those of the aikido-ka.  Competition is anethema to the mindset of aikido, so, no, there are no aikido-ka in the world that want a gold medal because there is no competition in aikido.  I'm not sure from your posts if you are at a point where you doubt the principles of judo or if you doubt the effectiveness of aikido.  I assure you that both arts are very well suited for what they are designed for.  While they both use a certain set of basic principles at their core those principles are applied differently for very different reasons.


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## Makalakumu

In my experience, I've met a bunch of judoka who were also aikidoka and the skills DO directly transfer.  A JUDOka can use aikido in a JUDO tournament, but aikido isn't judo.  Aikidoka don't train for competition.


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## tntma12

theletch1 said:


> That IS what aikido can do when the attack is thrown with intent to take your head off. Judo competitions are seen from the stand point that both parties know the same thing and are therefore not attacking with the intent to knock out their opponent. Aikido works great with an attack that is meant to harm you. When a planted attack or an attack that is not committed is thrown the aikido-ka will use certain dirty little tricks to make uke move in the proper direction. These tricks don't work so well in competition as they would deal out injuries to your training partner that would make for a short class.
> I believe that you are confusing the goals of the judo-ka as being the same as those of the aikido-ka. Competition is anethema to the mindset of aikido, so, no, there are no aikido-ka in the world that want a gold medal because there is no competition in aikido. I'm not sure from your posts if you are at a point where you doubt the principles of judo or if you doubt the effectiveness of aikido. I assure you that both arts are very well suited for what they are designed for. While they both use a certain set of basic principles at their core those principles are applied differently for very different reasons.


 
Awesome post.  Very well said


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## arnisador

Robot Jesus said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr8DJWKI28c
> there are two possible interpretations to this video.



That isn't clear to me.

In Aikido, nothing happens if no one attempts an attack. That's good--it's self-defense and no violence is the best possible outcome.

In Judo, nothing happens if no one attempts a throw. That's bad--it's a sport and no activity is the worst possible outcome.

The judoka both know the same material. Like boxers, they have studied the sport's techniques and one another's favorites. Each is hoping to be the one to make the next-to-last-mistake in this sporting match. They have differing strategies but comparable skill sets for the same goal.

The aikidoka and his attacker are mismatched in every way, however. There is an attacker and a defender; one has the goal of winning and the other of surviving/escaping; and they are almost surely trained (if at all) in different techniques.

Aikido is not meant to work in a Judo setting. Judo can be used for self-defense but is overwhelmingly practiced as sport first and foremost. It springs from a similar philosophy but meets different requirements. One might as well ask why a family car and an eighteen-wheeler aren't the same. Both were designed by mechanical engineers from a similar knowledge base and general philosophy, but for different situations and hence using different design criteria. The basic similarities are implemented in noticeably differing ways.

Judoka, aikidoka, collegiate wrestlers, and Greco-Roman wrestlers, among others, all throw people around to some extent. But they use the right tool for their rules/situation.


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## ejaazi

It could be as simple as they are two different styles, both in concept and application.


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## Victor Smith

Except when you have a 7th dan in Judo studying Aikido. Check out the last 1/2 of this clip.


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## amir

Robot Jesus said:


> I see aikidoka throwing grown men like ragdolls. Why dont you see judo fighters adopting aikido throws like we did with wrestling throws?




Because Judo is not Aikido, it is a separate M.A.

Many Aikido techniques are not allowed in Judo, this has very wide implications, since it also limits the counter options.

Further, you are comparing Aikido practice \ demonstrations with Judo competitions. Had you examined Judo demonstrations, you would have also seen large grown people thrown all over the mat.


Amir


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## Robot Jesus

That vid was labeled randori so I assumed it was.
Can someone point me to aikido that isnt a demo?


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## theletch1

Here is a link to a video of one of the newly minted sho-dans at my dojo doing a little randori.  It isn't multiple attacker randori in that the ukes are taking turns attacking but it is a little bit of the flow that can be seen in aikido.


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## jks9199

Robot Jesus said:


> That vid was labeled randori so I assumed it was.
> Can someone point me to aikido that isnt a demo?


Unless someone has a camera crew documenting their life 24/7, I think it's unlikely that you'll see aikido used "for real."  If it's been filmed, the odds are that it was probably a demo somewhere...

However, if you hunt around YouTube enough, using terms like Japanese Police Aikido, you might find some relevant stuff.


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## Robot Jesus

theletch1 said:


> Here is a link to a video of one of the newly minted sho-dans at my dojo doing a little randori. It isn't multiple attacker randori in that the ukes are taking turns attacking but it is a little bit of the flow that can be seen in aikido.


Forgive me if Im being dense but the uke dont seem to be resisting the technique, and are just going with the throw?


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## morph4me

Robot Jesus said:


> Forgive me if Im being dense but the uke dont seem to be resisting the technique, and are just going with the throw?


 
If you've ever had the experience of pushing on a door that someone was opening from the other side it is very much like that for the attacker. The attackers goal is to land his attack, the aikidoka removes himself from the line of the attack, taking the attackers balance and redirecting his energy, there isn't much opportunity to resist.


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## kilo

This blog seems to fit on this thread  http://mokurendojo.blogspot.com/2007/10/aikido-vs-judo.html


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## kaizasosei

this is what i always think to myself...although i did notice some sumothrowers getting into the aiki.  but maybe that came from those gaikokujin like Asashouryu, who are very tough and learned mongolian wrestling from their family.

actually i really used to think just along those lines, but now i came to realize a something...remember aikido does not ignore striking.  in a real case, anyone who can truly throw people around like ragdolls, could do much more if they went all out.  i guess if they don't lose their head and manage to controls self sufficiently. 
when the opponents are grabbing one another both really physically strong, it is often much harder or impossible to perform good technique. that is why it is good to be able to have the kind of relationship with the uke that if you suddenly raise as though to strike to face... they would sense that and  react, that is if they have the sense or need to. 
that also is at the heart of aiki...that is more than throwing people. everything is aiki. aiki is more than just things moving around- aiki is a kind of communication in all things even inanimate. 

j


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## Robot Jesus

I didnt want to get into this, but I have a very low opinion of aikido. Maybe its because the only aikidoka I know believes LSD gives him a deeper understanding of reality, but I just dont trust it.


Lets look at the randori vid that was posted

Whale yes I have had those opening door moments before they lasted a fraction of a second. Whereas that vid shows I think I would get out of in a second. Because thats all it takes to make or break a throw. Im not trying to insult anyone but there hasnt been a convincing argument.

What it comes down to is competition. It is the fountain head of understanding and advancement in every facet of life.

Biological evolution= competition  : the week genes die and the strong genes prosper

Capitalism= competition:  the strong goods and services prosper and the weak die\

Philosophy= competition: the strong arguments prosper, the weak die  (does anyone argue non metaphorical Heraclites anymore?)

Martial arts= competition: weak techniques die and the strong techniques prosper.


I dont see how something sophisticated can come without competition.


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## Yari

Your stating that when something wins it's the best. At least it wins within ceratin rules and boundries.

So your stating also that if I win the argument, that Im right. Would you then follow me, and my philosofi?

I think not. Because it's also a question of going for something you think is better, and stikcing to it. Becasuse you think it's best. You might be losing some "fights", or maybe all your fights. But you'll inspire others to be better people and maybe in the end change the world.

You started to ask why judo poeple dont' do Aikido. And they do and they dont.

When doing aikido, we work with the "energi", which they also do in Judo. In Aikido we also workd with the extenting of "energi", which they don't do so much in Judo. But this i interssting, because when a judoka gets extented "energi" the throw will look grasoius and nice. It'll look like no effort had been used. When you then look at the fight bewteen to judoka, you'll notice that the throws are not very clean or grasious. 

The same can be said about Aikido. When you start working with the "energi" moving and changing directions, it wont look like the basics you see. But the principles will still be the same.

/Yari


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## kaizasosei

although i try not to get too mixed up, since youth-a little later than bbt(around the time when segal was getting big), 
i have come to use many techniques of aikido...done at the right time on the correct person and situation the moves work very well even without striking.

what i do find a little strange is how much nowadays tsd and skh bunch are relying on aikido principles and techniques(more or less)-  no problem i would think that is fine and normal except for the fact that i was under the impression that skh had already mastered taijutsu to the level that he not need rely on aikido as much...
i still respect the advancement, but i do believe that bbt is also a kind of aikido- being very versatile, it even has an edge because it stresses freedom...the ultimate power.

also i read the writing where skh mentions his unique and interesting experiences with


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## kaizasosei

although i try not to get too mixed up, since youth-a little later than bbt(around the time when segal was getting big), 
i have come to use many techniques of aikido...done at the right time on the correct person and situation the moves work very well even without striking.

what i do find a little strange is how much nowadays tsd and skh bunch are relying on aikido principles and techniques(more or less)-  no problem i would think that is fine and normal except for the fact that i was under the impression that skh had already mastered taijutsu to the level that he not need rely on aikido as much...
i still respect the advancement, but i do believe that bbt is also a kind of aikido- being very versatile, it even has an edge because it stresses freedom...the ultimate power.

also i read the writing where skh mentions his unique and interesting experiences with the doshu of aikido.   
It's great to get insight from who cares even wherefrom- but i find it a little  odd at this stage.

i used to consider which to focus on- aikido or bbt..and after very much thinking- i came to the conclusion that bbt is more free and i would say more realistic..and when aikidoists get medievil on you, it can be more complicated dealing with it...many aikidoist, often say **** like 'that's not aikido'- without really having to understand.

that is why i don't go back to aikido anymore...cause they(certain individuals in particular-but the whole community is too selfabsorbed and not 100% peaceful in my opinion.-  so it's like- see ya!  i'll return one day just to visit once nature has run it's course- if i feel like it.
actually, when i think of one person i would love to downright slap the sillysauce outof her for being so annoying- two or three others, i would love to take on in a friendly free competition just to settle a few things.
no bull yelling out for me to stop or complaining that i am not doing the more right. 
i am grateful for learning much from them as well as at the seminars with the sensei from japan, but enough is enough--it's the tone that makes the music.
it's not that hard for me to care for or love my enemies', but i have little tollerance for the great enemy, which is evil and destructive ignorance itself.

please realize this is my story of one community which i shared some experiences with. - communities vary.  some might not even have any real skills whatsoever.  the community i am mentioning is quite skillfull i will agree, but i don't think they have much experience with fighting and are not as tough as they would like to think.  -  
  the sensei from japan are much better- mentally speaking--but ofcourse this causes their techniques to also be lacking in true effectiveness.
what i think is weird also, is that i sense that a few individuals higher up appear to me to be jealous of the jsensei. i'm guessing they are audaciously and very mistakingly begining to think they are on the same level as the jsensei...   not even close






j


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## kaizasosei

sorry in my dazed state of no sleep for so long....i made a mistake.

the techniques that are lacking are not those of the jsensei..it is the this community that is lacking in my opinion.


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## kaizasosei

i respect the jsensei and i think i understand them...

it's really a pain to reread the post...i wish i could erase or edit that mistake!!!


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## Blotan Hunka

alright, Im going to just come out and say this even though some Aikidoka will probably not like it. Perhaps you do see it because in Judo you have a really resisting opponent. while I like and respect Aikido and would like to study it, I have some serious doubts that its going to work when the **** hits the fan. it will probably work in police type situations for takedowns/controlls of people who arent coming at you like a MMA fighter. I have never seen an Aikido sparring session where there wasnt some "understanding" between those participating. Like a double leg takedown followed by a ground n' pound.

Does it make Aikido "worthless" or will aikido skill not help you defend yourself? NO no no, im not saying that. I do think that Aikido is kind of "stylistic" and to expect a "real" fight to go down like that randori...well I dont believe thats going to happen.

Just my .02. No offense intended.


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## tempus

Not sure how this would add to the discussion.  In the version of Aikido I take, depending on belt level, with me beign the Uke I swing to take your head off.  If the technique is done properly I am thrown half way across the room or receive a very hard fall.  Should the person miss out of the technique I usually end up with a knee to the groin, or some type of strike, and then an Aikido technique.  NGA is probably more Aiki-jujitsu (excuse spelling) then traditional Aikido, but if it worked for guys on the battle field a few centuires ago, I cannot see why it would not work now.  Also, my joints tell me that the techniques do work if done correctly.
I also try to resist at much as possible when a technique is done wrong to simulate a real attacker (i.e. Keep swinging, grabbing, kicking, wrestling, etc...) and my body pays a hard price for that.

We do not compete, but we do attack lines and rondori.  End up learning a lot from these.

Just my 2 cents.....


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## theletch1

So, the Original Poster bases his thoughts on aikido on only what he knows from someone addicted to a hallucinogenic drug and another bases his on a bad time with one small piece of the aikido world.  Study the art until you get a decent understanding of it and you may open your eyes a little.  Trusting a man who believes that LSD gives him a better understanding of reality is just as big a blunder as believing that LSD will help him understand reality.  Find a reputable dojo and ask if you can watch a class or two or even participate in one.  I know that it may seem impossible to throw someone with out putting a lot of muscle into the technique but when uke is using all of his muscle to take your head off it becomes a simple matter of shifting balance.

As for the "community" that you had a bad time with Kaizasosei I am truly sorry that you found yourself in a bad group.  However, judging everyone in the aikido community from the experience with a handful of them would be like me judging everyone in the TKD community by my experiences with a serious McDojo here in my area.  I will not judge all by the actions of a few.  Keep in mind that there are many different sub-styles of of aikido and not all of them trace their lineage back to Ueshiba nor do many that do resemble each other to an exacting degree.  

Blotan Honka,  When you see someone in the video link do a break fall out of a technique it is because not to would mean a devastating break of one or more of the joints involved.  The pain compliance aspect of the techniques do, indeed, work well in a LEO aspect.  However, that pain is metered out only as much as is needed to control the individual.  The more resistance offered by uke the more pain you are able to apply with the technique right up to and beyond the breaking point of the bone or joint.  When you see someone roll out of a technique it is because that is where the energy led them and because they know what is going on.  Those who don't know what is going on will be doing a face plant into the pavement.  Yes, to many aikido looks fake simply because there is no competition and the argument becomes "well, it'd never work against a resisting opponent."  I'm here to tell you that it will, indeed, work against a resisting opponent when done at higher levels.  There are tons of dirty tricks hidden in aikido that can be pulled out when needed.  Does it take longer to use on the street?  Sure.  Is it the most effective street level SD system out there.  Well, your mileage will vary depending on you and the instructor and which exact sub-style of aikido you use.  Sorta sounds like any other "Which MA is best" debate doesn't it?

If you aren't impressed by videos, great, go find a dojo and train.  Feeling is believing.  I believe that if you look back through the threads in this sub-forum you'd be hard pressed to find many threads stating the aikido is the greatest art in the world.  You won't see aikido-ka walking around with aikido kanji plastered on every piece of clothing that they own.  We are generally an unassuming lot (with some exceptions) and that is part of the ai of aikido.  We have several class members who actively train in hard style arts and cross train in aikido.  They came in thinking that there was no way that if they threw a planted attack at an aikido-ka that they could be thrown.  They found out quickly that it isn't always pretty or nice when an experienced aikido-ka makes you move.  It works, folks, not for everyone but for those that devote the time and effort into the training that anyone that loves their art does it will.


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## Yari

Blotan Hunka said:


> ....... I have never seen an Aikido sparring session where there wasnt some "understanding" between those participating. Like a double leg takedown followed by a ground n' pound.
> .....


 
I got to agree that you dont see it to often. But its there.We pratice freeform, that means anything goes. Other dojos have there own forms.

There is nothing called an aikido technique. It doesn't exsit. Aikido is the mentality/philosphi. You can have two styles doing the same technique, the way it's aikido, is to look at the users mentality, and the way he uses the "technique". 

Aikidos philospfi is that of seeking non-violence conflict resolution. You'll not see any stage fights. 

Aome Aikido styles emphesize on the philosfy of Aikido, others on entrance of a technique(on how to go into a conflict), others again on how to use the force that is in a conflict, and others again work on atemi ... and so on.

So you'll have many different styles of Aikido working on there own thing. Poeple reconize this, since everbody has there areas of expertise, and areas that they need to work on. So (at least in the area I live) people "shop" around..... changing styles and becoming more and more proficient of becoming a whole Aikido praticiner.

My point  being that my guess is that you havn't seen aikido, just a little part of it.

/Yari


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## morph4me

I have been training in NGA for 20 years, and I know that it works against resisting attackers. I have also been to aikido dojos and have seen people flying accross the dojo because they were "supposed to" and I, too, have a problem with that kind of training. It's unrealistic and gives people a false sense of security. I prefer attackers that give realistic attacks and show me where my weaknesses are. In aikido uke either goes with the throw so he can fall safetly, or he doesn't with unpleasant results. The issue is one of why he's falling, because of lack of balance which is sometimes caused by the pain of having a joint manipulated in a way it isn't meant to go. 

I'm not here to try to convince anybody of anything, but I will say that judging an art, any art, based on the exposure to one practioner who belives in the power of hallucinogens to define his reality is narrow minded, and as far as competition, my aikido got infinetly better when I stopped trying to compete and yielded to the energy my uke's attacked me with.


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## kaizasosei

> As for the "community" that you had a bad time with Kaizasosei I am truly sorry that you found yourself in a bad group. However, judging everyone in the aikido community from the experience with a handful of them would be like me judging everyone in the TKD community by my experiences with a serious McDojo here in my area. I will not judge all by the actions of a few. Keep in mind that there are many different sub-styles of of aikido and not all of them trace their lineage back to Ueshiba nor do many that do resemble each other to an exacting degree.




yes, thanks for the tip... i'm glad i didn't get tooled on more for this negative and aggressive post.  however, i could get away with it due to your superb knowledge and understanding.

there is no doubt that aikido, being one of the main arts of my interest philosophy, stiking and moves, is a supreme martial art.

thing is, it is true that their are many different styles out their as well as many different yet related aspects that need be focussed on to achieve a well rounded'understanding.

about the community i was refering to...i do feel slightly bad for expressing myself like this now, actually i have tried to express myself but it only caused an escallation of things if not a really unpleasant silence.  so often i wish i had at least said just a few more things. :whip1: too bad there is always some kind of snyde retort...

still i think we shared some interesting times. i would like to clearly state two things. 1. that i know just how vast the difference can be in different peoples aikido.  2. the japanese sensei are very amazingly good! the above writing contained some errors due to some kind of mistake made during editing or deleting.  -  actually, the natives are good too, but it's an attitude thing of just a few people who seem to have the some kind of position with which to get angry and start grunting for what are to me incomprehensible reasons.

sorry i didn't mean to waste time mentioning it...just telling of my decision to spare myself the torture and move on.  it's not really that rewarding-
after all, i can practice aikido by myself or with any other people i choose to. 

thanks again.. sorry again for being offensive.


j


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## Robot Jesus

theletch1 said:


> So, the Original Poster bases his thoughts on aikido on only what he knows from someone addicted to a hallucinogenic drug and another bases his on a bad time with one small piece of the aikido world.


 
Actually you misunderstand. Perhaps I over emphasized on the anticdote. I dont base my opinion of aikido on the stoner, though his ramblings do not aggrandize aikido. I base it mostly on youtube videos.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lcw1C3iAx4&mode=related&search=

I would never attack someone like that. When entering grappling range grabbing someones wrist is not a strong hold. When you hold the wrist you opponent has just as much control of the situation as you. A better place to grab is the elbow, your arms give you greater leverage and you take leverage away from your opponent. How I would attack  would probably be to stay at the opponents level, either shoot for a double leg (in this case more of a lift and shove than a real take down) or try to get around him as in a kneeling position in order to move he would need to rise on his knees; giving me a second or so to push the attack.

So basically I feel this guy is a ****y attacker and so I think this video is a work.

But I get the same feeling from every aikido video I see.

Another thing thats been bothering me. In judo we are taught that there are four parts to a throw. The first is you body positioning, second is kuzushi meaning your opponents balance and therefore also his position. Thirdly is the execution of the technique and lastly is the follow-through.

Every judo video Ive seen seems to takes the first two for grated. Every uke seems to just barrel into a throw and then go limp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEi-Snqt5B4

I dont want to go into a blow by blow but I will give my impressions.

At about the 0:09 the tori stuns the uke with a blow to the chest, not certain how hard one would need to hit to make that work. Biased on how much the uke was stunned and my admittedly limited experience getting hit the tori would need to be wearing brass knuckles.

0:12 I dont train in boxing but I do watch a lot of it, and Ive never seen a hook like that. The power of a hook is derived from circular motion derived from a combination of torso twist and pushing off sideways with the same foot as the hand being used. What the uke appears to be doing is applying forward momentum to a circular punch so he has momentum going in two different directions, no wonder he falls.

0:15 nothing wrong with that punch other than the range it was thrown. Its a long range haymaker, its a punch used at long range not something thrown while closing the distance.

I could go on but I think you probably get my point.

I did though find something interesting what looking for aikido vids on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q

this looks good actually, the boxings not too wonderful but it you can see effort being shown, would be better if they got an actual boxer. Most importantly though this is organic and dynamic, the puncher wins some exchanges and the grappler wins some exchanges. There is not a real uke, just like in a real fight.


And finally, can anyone recommend a good aikido place in Calgary Alberta Canada.

P.S. its not possible to be addicted to a psychotropic substance, although one can defiantly go on a binge. The body just never develops a dependency.


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## Robot Jesus

p.p.s. thanks to every one for not turning this into a flame war, I know my opinions are provocative but do try to keep a cool head.


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## morph4me

Robot Jesus said:


> p.p.s. thanks to every one for not turning this into a flame war, I know my opinions are provocative but do try to keep a cool head.


 
That's one of the great things about this forum, no flame wars, intelligent disagreement and respect for the opinions of others.


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## Yari

Robot Jesus said:


> Actually you misunderstand.



That's OK. I can live with that ;-) let's find out what is misunderstood.



> Perhaps I over emphasized on the anticdote. I don&#8217;t base my opinion of aikido on the stoner, though his ramblings do not aggrandize aikido. *I base it mostly on youtube videos.*
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lcw1C3iAx4&mode=related&search=
> 
> I would never attack someone like that. When entering grappling range grabbing someone&#8217;s wrist is not a strong hold. When you hold the wrist you opponent has just as much control of the situation as you. A better place to grab is the elbow, your arms give you greater leverage and you take leverage away from your opponent. How I would attack would probably be to stay at the opponents level, either shoot for a double leg (in this case more of a lift and shove than a real take down) or try to get around him as in a kneeling position in order to move he would need to rise on his knees; giving me a second or so to push the attack.
> 
> So basically I feel this guy is a ****y attacker and so I think this video is a work.
> 
> But I get the same feeling from every aikido video I see.




So to sum up, you feel that watching Aikido videos show you that the attacking and (maybe) usage of Aikido isn't up to real SD or fighting.


Let me ask you... what do you think the guy in the video is showing?

I don't know what he IS showing. What I know is that he is using techniques from the Aikido curriculeum, and this is an Aikido demostration. So I could guess that he is showing Aikido principles, and that he is showing them slowly so people can see what the principles are. This is commenly done by Aikido people.

Most of the Aikido i know of uses/has the possiblity to use atemi/break arms/legs/neck, ground work. But aikido emphesizes on non violent solutions, so you'll see in demostrations the optimal solution(which is the wish for nonviolent solution).

I'm not disagreeing that there are styles (no matter which style you look at), that have groups and individuals that emphesize on different aspects of the style (personal growth, fun, sword usage), and such things don't get trough watching a vid. 

What you see in a vid is only a picture, a flat copy of a little part of of the universe(style/person), that judging based and that is the same as judging a book by the first word on the cover.

Aikido is many different aikido styles, so even basing a judgment on Aikido on 1 style isn't that valid. 

I just might sound a bit harse here, sorry for that. But I hope to get the understanding forth that Aikido is more than just "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lcw1C3iAx4&mode=related&search="

/yari


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## MrFunnieman

Robot Jesus said:


> I did though find something interesting what looking for aikido vids on youtube.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q
> 
> this looks good actually, the boxings not too wonderful but it you can see effort being shown, would be better if they got an actual boxer. Most importantly though this is organic and dynamic, the puncher wins some exchanges and the grappler wins some exchanges. There is not a real uke, just like in a real fight.


 
I thought this was cool too.  I don't currently study Aikido, but I think this would be great training.  Any martial artist would benefit if they cross-trained a little.  Bring a boxer to the dojo and see how the art would have to be adapted.  Certainly a jab doen't have a lot of committed energy and other tricks would have to be used to increase the momentum.  I wish the guys in the video continued until the boxer was subdued.  It looked like they would try a technique out and if it failed they would start over.  I would have kept at it until I made something work.  You don't get a chance to start over in a real fight.


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## kaizasosei

the aikiboxing was interesting.  i just think that the aikiguy needed more big takedowns like like sweeps and big trips..also, he is not doing enough irimi for such a opponent coming forward so strongly. he should go in explosively and put arm to opponents face...

some things were quite aiki- i liked when he pushed the opponents chin gently to take him down. -main moves- mushadori- not very common in aikido-but more with bbt,xkan or kobudo. also he'd bend the boxers back to take him down
once he gets a kotegaeshi wristlock but doesnt use body so much to make it work all the time...easier said than done -it's hard to implement bodymovement well when the opponent is following so closely.. that is why it would be good to use some striking also to create the right distance or respect area. 
also, when someone is going really fast or hysterical or just faking some intensity, the otherside tends to slowdown a bit to adjust and to be able to perceive any real danger.  i think that is a very crucial point for all fighting.   once one perceives danger but cannot know exactly where it is coming from, one starts to do things like worsen posture, look away turn around as to flee or cover head with hands or even drop guard alltogether.
as i see it the spirit of aiki is the spirit of all fighting and humancommunication.


there were a couple of situations were  felt the aikiman could have implemented certain other moves.  like when the boxer was behind him, he tried for a seoinage but i think it might have been better to step behind the boxer.
also the main point i think that should be looked at is this; it's not easy, but one can see that to do efficient henka, you have to stop at some point.  
for example, the few times that he pulls the boxer down ikkyostyle, i think it would be good to try and hold the opponent like this for a short while...that means, there is no direct goal like trying to get the opponent down right away.  but once he's trying to get up or once one has felt just where he is  placing his balance and energy.

i liked how the twopartners harmonized with one another being quite sportive.  
 it's funny, on one side it has to be aikido, you don't try to grab.  the person grabs you.  but in realilty, it is necessary sometimes to get a good hold.

i think the best tip is to practice as many many different techniques and their principles and then train to have the calmness yet swiftness to implement them effectively.

 i believe, realistic aikido must be trained with the spirit of cutting the opponent down..not aggessively but defensively not allow even a mm that could result in serious injury or trapping of self. 
aside from knowing a few techniques that i believe would work well in a few situations, without striking or the possibility thereof, i don't think i could do much better than the aikiman.  when it comes to trying to grab and takedown somebody. plus, i bet he knows more techniques of wrestling or freemoves, just didnt get to using them.

one more thing, who says that getting the person down is the ultimate goal of aikido...i would think staying safe and balanced would be more important.

j

j




j


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## amir

The problem with the first vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lcw1C3iAx4&mode=related&search is rather simple, I see the Aikido, but where is the MMA?  (and I practice some style of Aikido).

But, I  think you should blame yourself here. This is a lesson about YouTube and conclusions based on it. Neither of us knows who gave that label to this Demo, and we can both guess that person did have an agende and possibiliy even took one part of a classical Aikido Demo and placed it out of the original context (I would be surprised if the demnstrator thought he was showing Aikido vs MMA).


I happen to know a lot about the Vid you liked: 



The people in it are examining thier abilities and posting about it in Aikiweb. As you can read there, they are not vetran and do get a lot of criticisem, partially as a matter of attitude, but also lots of technical comments. Personnaly, I would not consider this to be aikido, only a rather poor attempt at it, showing Aikido techniques with poor timing and without any control over the fight.


Amir


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## theletch1

I think the biggest problem here for the OP is one of ignorance.  Not stupidity, mind you, but just basic ignorance.  Cool thing about the difference between ignorance and stupidity is that ignorance can be cured by the infusion of knowledge, stupidity is for life.  As others have stated viewing youtube and forming an opinion about an entire style is actually counter-productive.  Aikido is a patient man game.  Not just in the mindset of how long it takes to learn but in the actual technique itself.  RJ, your profile says you're a yellow belt in judo.  From this I'm gonna surmise that you've thrown and been thrown in the dojo often enough to begin feeling that split second when your uke is off balance enough to execute the throw.  Sooner or later you'll get to the point that you will feel that without thinking about it.  That is the essence of aikido technique, feeling energy.  You can't feel what the folks in videos are feeling so you aren't able to really tell what uke's reaction would be in real life.  Go to a dojo, ask to train and learn a little of the art first hand.  That's really the only way to allay your misgivings.  

If you are getting what you want from judo why worry so much about what works for other people?  I've known lot's of folks that have tried several different arts before settling on the one that suited them best.  I studied kempo for a couple years and while I was proficient at it it just didn't click as naturally for me as aikido does.  There are things kempo practitioners can do with their art that I never could no matter how much I trained and the reverse is true as well with me and aikido.  No art, no artist, no technique is perfect.  If any of them were then that would be the only thing out there.  Self defense, martial arts and spiritual paths are all very much a personal thing and you must find what suits you and accept that others will be suited to other arts and techniques.


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## kaizasosei

check it out!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG_tnefyOcc&mode=related&search=

j


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## kaizasosei

ueshibasensei said that in real life sitiuations, atemi or striking should make up 70% of the  aikido'.

before ueshibasensei passed away, many people tell that he tried in vain to rename aikido by changing the chinese character for harmonizing or meeting (ai) into love(ai)- but the student were so powerful at the time that they either resisted or themselves could not overcome as the ball was already rolling



j


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## theletch1

kaizasosei said:


> ueshibasensei said that in real life sitiuations, atemi or striking should make up 70% of the aikido'.
> 
> before ueshibasensei passed away, many people tell that he tried in vain to rename aikido by changing the chinese character for harmonizing or meeting (ai) into love(ai)- but the student were so powerful at the time that they either resisted or themselves could not overcome as the ball was already rolling
> 
> 
> 
> j


Nice video clip.  When done properly the flow of aikido does, indeed, look very much like a dance.  I think, and this is just my rusty old brain trying to function, that the first statement and the second statement are from two different stages in O'sensei's development of aikido.  As I understand it aikido became much softer and more flowing as Ueshiba aged and became more spiritual.  I often wonder if the major rift in hombu styles of aikido originated because some of the original students were more interested in what aikido was at the beginning of it's evolution and others were more interested in what it eventually became.  I'm sure one of the hombu stylist here can set me straight.  I study Nihon Goshin and our lineage traces back differently.  Our style isn't nearly as gentle as many of the hombu styles, almost closer to -jutsu than -do.  I do love the flow of any style of aikido, though, and find myself fixated on the simple redirection of energy of late in all of it's facets.


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## kaizasosei

as far as aikido goes, i can see that although they are practicing very gently, they have a great knowledge of henka and the general feel of aiki...
it's impossible to tell how they would do in a situation of freesparring, but their moves truly are very fluid.  i wonder if the title and music was intentional from the beginning or whether the guy in black truly does have such a style of resembeling dancing...-  i liked it.  i had the feeling he had a particularily good feel for the moves. 

i think aiki or aikijutsu or do should be like they say of chinese ma.  'soft like cotton and hard as steel'
aiki in itself i a force of internal martialarts.  the moves themselves are external being jujutsu and various unarmed combat techniques.  but the feeling is something universal.  
  even kids can get an idea of the real essence of aiki.

i believe that all human communication and all movements of all things in the universe are a type of aiki.

j


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## Robot Jesus

kaizasosei said:


> it's impossible to tell how they would do in a situation of freesparring, but their moves truly are very fluid. i wonder if the title and music was intentional from the beginning or whether the guy in black truly does have such a style of resembeling dancing...- i liked it. i had the feeling he had a particularily good feel for the moves. ...
> 
> 
> ...j


 
All I saw was a cutting criticism of what I assume the worst of aikido to be. Movements once alive choreographed far beyond the point of usefulness and into absurdity.

EDIT: &#8220; expletive deleted&#8221;

I realized how to explain my perception of aikido, and hopefully you can help correct it.

What I&#8217;ve seen of aikido it appears to be a Shinto flavored version of professional wrestling with the emphasis on moves appearing effortless instead of brutally powerful. 

And as always if anyone can recommend good aikido in Calgary Alberta Canada, I will look into it at first convenience


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## theletch1

You have 8 posts on this site and all of them are in this one thread.  You haven't posted in judo yet, the style you yourself study by your profile.  Did you join this forum simply to bash aikido?  You have said yourself that you base your opinion of the art on youtube videos.  How in the world can you have a valid opinion on an art which relies on feeling energy and redirecting it if you've never felt it?  The video link that you've just dinged says volumes more to an aikido-ka than it would to someone who's never done the art.  To someone who has never studied kenpo a kenpo demo would look just like someone flailing their arms around another person til they fell down.  To someone who has studied it you can identify the different techniques and understand the theory behind what is happening.  If you're so disgusted with aikido simply ignore it.

I have no intention of attempting to correct your perception of aikido.  There have been numerous responses to your original and follow up posts here and none of them have budged you one inch in the direction of approaching the art as having worth.  I have better things to do with my time.


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## Robot Jesus

My primary goal is to correct my view of aikido through discourse. This requires the expression of my view. Im not trying to prove my point, Im trying to help you disprove it through critical analysis.


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## theletch1

Robot Jesus said:


> My primary goal is to correct my view of aikido through discourse. This requires the expression of my view. Im not trying to prove my point, Im trying to help you disprove it through critical analysis.


I have no reason to disprove it.  I've chosen aikido as my art because it works for me.  You've chosen judo as yours because it works for you.  What you believe about another art does not change it's effectiveness for those that choose to study it one iota.  If you are truly on an honest search for knowledge go train in the art.  Aikido is very much about feeling the flow of energy and being able to redirect it.   No amount of critical analysis will allow you to feel what aikido is.


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## morph4me

Robot Jesus said:


> My primary goal is to correct my view of aikido through discourse. This requires the expression of my view. Im not trying to prove my point, Im trying to help you disprove it through critical analysis.


 
Your perceptions or preconceptions are yours to correct, which might be easier if you had an open mind and/or actual experience. I'm with theletch1 on this.  Trying to explain aikido through critical analysis is like trying to explain a color to a man who's been blind from birth or a woman to explain to a man what it feels like to give birth, you just don't get it until you've experienced it.


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## Tez3

This is a strange thread! I've been trying to follow the argument but am well lost!
I tried to watch the Aiki v MMA video but it didn't play. I don't think you can have an MMA v anything really as there are (obviously) many martial arts in MMA. You could have MMA fighter against whatever, that would be more accurate.

I don't do Aikido but my instructor has done quite a lot and he'll teach us various techniques in self defence classes. The people he teaches are mostly MMA people so aren't 'conditioned' in any way to play along with the moves,  we will resist strongly and throw good punches. When our instructor demos these Aiki moves on us the air turns blue! Yes it hurts and it works! I can't speak for the styles, the classes or the instructors etc but the moves, damn me they work!


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## Yari

Robot Jesus said:


> My primary goal is to correct my view of aikido through discourse. This requires the expression of my view. Im not trying to prove my point, Im trying to help you disprove it through critical analysis.


 
I'm sorry. I can not help you with this.

I can tell you what i think and feel.
You can tell me what you think or feel.

But only you have the power to change/mold your mind and thoughts.
You decide what you think is right or wrong.
You are the one to choose if the logic is OK or not.

It's all your own responsability how you see the world.
It's your life, and your choice to live it like you choose.
And the consequesense are all yours.

/yari


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## kaizasosei

> What Ive seen of aikido it appears to be a Shinto flavored version of professional wrestling with the emphasis on moves appearing effortless instead of brutally powerful.



this could be a decent discription of a certain observation but you are missing on some key elements of aikido.- 
  completely understandable in your realistic thinking, chances are most of the time, you are probably right.

however, know that aikido are the extended moves of stick, sword spear combat.  
  if you need to hear specific ideas, which nevertheless only limit the style, then i could hint at how the footwork and body positioning resembles that of spear and sword evasion.  the motions of the body and arms closely mimicing the motions and stance of a weilded sword.  
this would tie in to real sword combat, swordtechniques and sword grappling  and lastly the jujutsustyle pins. 

  the reason that aikido is effortless, is because the the energy is constantly flowing.  aikido also aiming to be realistic has very high standards.  the energy must be flowing.  this is not a standard imposed by any martial art or philosophy, it is a natural thing.  
 when the energy gets too locked up, one could say, neither party is in complete control of the situation.  one could say they are equal.  call it chikarakurabe.  often when both know each other. or train together ie have the same style- then they will more likely get into the stalemate situation of being equal.
aikido is designed for or often can be seen recreating situations where there are many attackers coming in and then each of them is effortlessly tossed to and fro.  one needs to imagine that kind of situation.  
  if someone is truly welltrained, they can pulloff anything from what one sees in aikido.  it just depends on that specific situation the environment and the skill  or fate of the  individual.

any mma try training with knives and against swords, and i garantee that it would put a spin on things.  the positive side of the mma is that they are so for real and truly tough as opposed to many exploiters of the martial ways who are in reality not capable.  so imagine if the mma trained against live blades and live knives, -
  whatever, i don't want to give any bad advice, but just show that the idea is different.  
thing is, you see only the friendly side of aikido.  those dancing motions are 
only the practice for the real thing.  they are not always the real thing.
on the other hand, aiki can be used for simple hand to hand combat.  there is not that much striking taught in many aikido dojos, but striking is a natural part of the sword for example.

after all, aikido is the art of using a sword without having a sword

just some ideas





j


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## Robot Jesus

Im not certain I agree, but Im not willing to make a statement on this until I train  in aikido a bit.

But what do you mean by MMA?


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## Brother John

Robot Jesus said:


> I see aikidoka throwing grown men like ragdolls. Why dont you see judo fighters adopting aikido throws like we did with wrestling throws?


 

I've not yet read all the way through the thread yet, just the first post and first reply....so this may have already been mentioned.

It may have to do with the fact that a Judoka must maintain a 'grip' for a throw/takedown to be permissable in competition.
maybe?

Your Brother
John


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## Tez3

Robot Jesus said:


> Im not certain I agree, but Im not willing to make a statement on this until I train in aikido a bit.
> 
> *But what do you mean by MMA?*


 

Mixed Martial Arts. Have a look on the MMA forum for the description and read the posts there.


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## P A Goldsbury

kaizasosei said:


> before ueshibasensei passed away, many people tell that he tried in vain to rename aikido by changing the chinese character for harmonizing or meeting (ai) into love(ai)- but the student were so powerful at the time that they either resisted or themselves could not overcome as the ball was already rolling
> 
> 
> 
> j



At the risk of some thread drift, would you like to expand on this? Where is the evidence that he tried to do this and was stopped? I have read all of his writings in Japanese, and he occasionally writes that aiki (matching + ki) is really aiki (love + ki), but this does not amount to renaming the art.

Best wishes,


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## kaizasosei

although many people could be classed under the term mma possibly without being aware of it themselves.  also, i believe that all martial arts are mixed to some degree.  after that it is mostly form where differences can be found.  in essence, most martial arts are much more similar than the practitioners would like to think.. least it seems that way to me.
what i meant by mma are mainly the people who call themselves mma or claim to be training in mma.  further maybe i would include some people from the bjj scence.  not that what im saying is bad, or good. -  mma are still  skillfully  using  sophisticated techniques to  win(often not enough arsenal in my opinion, but hey),  traditional martial artists cannot denny real life and the power of effectivity.  they go hand in hand like yin and yang. also, the mma fighters cannot deny the richness of traditional martial arts even if they give up on certain martial arts due to poor examples.
  i meant a certain kind of martial artist that concentrates on realistic yet often sportive one on one handtohandcombat with an emphasis on grappling techniques.  i think it's obvious who im talking about. 

i'm not sure about the aikido story.  as i mentioned, i only heard of it and read about it.  i could try to research and find where i read it in the first place so that i could get the story straight.  however, i was also just trying to point out that aikido need not be something that is so rigid.  although i admire the uniform and methodical nature of aikido techniques, i think some people stick too much to the form not realizing the fullness of possibilities. 
as a phenomenon, i know that aiki was a term that was created or established close to a thousand years ago by someone who analyticaly studied the essence of the martial arts.  

as i see it, every technique in martial arts works because of aiki.  some people need to learn aiki...get tossed.throw others etc.  
many others just need to understand.  
and even if one can understand.  one could then probe further and ask; which part of me is understanding this?  
i mean in a heaty situation, am i able to act according to my teachings? 


j












j


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## P A Goldsbury

Hello,

Thank you for your reply. A few more comments.



kaizasosei said:


> i'm not sure about the aikido story.  as i mentioned, i only heard of it and read about it.  i could try to research and find where i read it in the first place so that i could get the story straight.


Well, you posted it. I would have thought that you would have got the story straight before posting it.



kaizasosei said:


> however, i was also just trying to point out that aikido need not be something that is so rigid.  although i admire the uniform and methodical nature of aikido techniques, i think some people stick too much to the form not realizing the fullness of possibilities.


Agreed.



kaizasosei said:


> as a phenomenon, i know that aiki was a term that was created or established close to a thousand years ago by someone who analyticaly studied the essence of the martial arts.j


Again, I have to ask where is your evidence. For example, the term does not appear with the 'aiki' kanji reading in Morohashi's Dai Kanwa Jiten. It should have done if the term was created close to a thousand years ago. As I stated above, I am not saying you are wrong: I am simply seeking the evidence.

Best wishes,

PAG


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## kaizasosei

here are the facts about the term aiki.  i personally believe that the concept of aiki as an internal aspect of the techniques could be expressed in other words.  perhaps there was such a term from even earlier martial arts.  however, there is no evidence as such and i myself find it hard if not impossible to come up with a better term to express it.  although, using chinese characters for harmony/unification- communication?...i'm sure there are possibilities.  
  however, one cannot deny the amazing discoveries and research of the past.  this kind of research comes to repeat itself time and time again.  then it quickly advances to unveil the subtle nature of the human being and the interconnectedness of all things.  

so anyways, the history that i was referring to can be found on various sites connected to the daitoryu, one of if not the main style that  ueshibasensei incorperated into aikido. 

hope it's alright to post this stuff, ill just quote what i found on the Daitoryu sites. 



> DAITO-RYU AIKI JUJITSU ROPPOKAI ​ Daito-Ryu is said to have been founded by Minamoto no Shinra Saburo Yoshimitsu (1045-1127), the last grandson of emperor Seiwa. Yoshimitsu, was the younger brother of Minamoto no Hachiman Taro Yoshiie (1041- 1108), who was considered to be the greatest warrior in all of Japanese History. It's very likely that the earlier combat methods of the Minamoto clan were actually just refined and perfected by General Yoshimitsu, and his elder brother Yoshiie.
> Yoshimitsu, was a teacher of so-jutsu (spear), To- ho (sword methods), and Tai-jutsu (body arts), as well as archery, and he was noted firstly, for having dissected the cadavers of executed criminals and slain enemy soldiers of the "Three-year war" (1083). Through this study of the structure of the human body he mastered Gyakute and Ichigeki Hissatsu (techniques of killing with one blow); secondly, by watching the silk spider catch it's prey, he obtained a hint which led to the discovery of the core of Aiki. Therefore Yoshimitsu is considered to be the one who originally developed the techniques of Daito-Ryu by adding to the previous secret techniques of the Minamoto clan, and passing those techniques down to the Takeda family of Kai.
> In 1573 Kunitsugu Takeda, a relative of Takeda Shingen was appointed governor of Aizu, and moved his family, and retainers there. It was at this time that the traditional art of Daito-Ryu took form. Daito-Ryu (also called Goshikinai ), became the official self- defense art at the Aizu castle. The successive lords, and their bodyguards practiced it as the secret art of the Aizu clan, and passed it on until the fall of the Shogunate.
> According to history, only the chief samurai's with an income of more than 500 koku, the pageboys, the court ladies, and those who served directly under the Shogun, were allowed to learn the art.





also:




> The art of AIKI of the TAKEDA school is first documented in the  12th century as "TAKEDA RYU AIKI NO JUTSU", but its origins go much further back in history. SOKE NAKAMURA, current head of the school TAKEDA RYU NAKAMURA HA, quoted the following passage from the records on the TAKEDA school:
> 
> In the 27th year of the reign of the twelfth TENNO (emperor) by the name of KEIKO (KEIGYO), the KUMASO tribe rebelled. As a result, the heir to the throne, YAMATO TAKERU NO MIKOTO, was sent on an expedition to punish the KUMASO. On his way, he performed a cleansing ceremony at KAMIYO waterfall. He placed his feet on the rocky floor of the waterfall, spread his arms wide, was filled with the power of the spirit and gathered the entire strength of his body in his fingertips. Turning towards heaven, he executed several upward blows, then let his hands drop and struck out powerfully several times with his arms. After the prince had completed these movements, he decided to attack the KUMASO. Disguised as a woman, he crept into the enemys camp and there roused the sleeping leader of the KUMASO. When the leader tried to attack him, the prince opened his arms, was filled with spiritual strength and threw the KUMASO leader to the ground, having already snatched his sword from him. This technique of spreading ones arms and throwing down ones opponent was the beginning of AIKI.



and....



> History Of Daito-Ryu Aiki Budo
> 
> Daito-ryu Aiki Budo has come down to us from time immemorial. The first written record of it can be found in the era of Emperor Seiwa, and it has descended through the Genji family over the generations and was formalized into a school by Shinra Saburo Yoshimitsu. In other words, Yoshimitsu studied and researched the techniques handed down in his family in more detail. He dissected corpses brought back from wars in order to explore human anatomy and mastered a decisive counter-technique as well as discovering lethal atemi. Yoshimitsu then mastered a technique for killing with a single blow. Through such great efforts, he mastered the essence of aiki and discovered the secret techniques of Aiki Budo. Therefore, Yoshimitsu is the person who is credited with being the founder of the original school of Daito-ryu.





i will try to research about the renaming of aikido but realistically, i don't think i will be able to confirm the true nature of this story.  i mean, i personally believe there must be truth in it...even if it were a rumor, it may be based on some other reason.  - i myself am not saying it's not perfect as it is.  also i am not saying i understand the other way to be better...actually i have trouble understanding it at all like probably many people, but somehow, it would make sense to me if the sensei decided to call it that.


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## Robot Jesus

kaizasosei said:


> the mma fighters cannot deny the richness of traditional martial arts even if they give up on certain martial arts due to poor examples.
> j


 
What do you mean exactly by tradition. Both what it is and how one benefits from it. 

Maybe its my favor of Nietzsche but I have a pretty dim view of tradition.


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## Yari

Robot Jesus said:


> What do you mean exactly by tradition. Both what it is and how one benefits from it.
> 
> Maybe its my favor of Nietzsche but I have a pretty dim view of tradition.


 

I'm not sure your understand your own frame of mind on this.

By haveing the idea (frame of mind) that something is bad, it will pr. default be bad.

Let me give you an example:

You think that all green poeple are idiots. If you ask them a clear question they dont answer it.

So one day you decide to try this out. You ask the first green person "What time is it?". The time is 12:15, that you know. So you think that you'll be flexible and openminded, so if they say something between 12:00 and 12:30. That would be OK. You'll also ready to be so openminded that if they just arrived from another time zone the watch my show something completly else. But you should be able to talk to them so they understand.

Now your waiting for the green person to answer. "Oh I'm sorry I can't help you" he answers, eventhough he has a watch on his wrist. And he hurries away. Now you've taken this into account, by placing yourself outside the old trainstation clock, so you looking up to this making sure your following the time. If he knew that his watch was broken, he could look up to the clock and telle the time, even point out that you could see the time on it.

Well, you conclude that green people are really stupide. You gave him every chance to prove that they could handle a simple question. But even that they could'nt handle.

The logic isn't bad, and true the gree guy didn't answer the question, he even ran away looking guilty.

What you didn't know and take into consideration was that the green guys watch did work, and that he did notice you looking at the stations clock, many times. He was late for a meeting, and had to hurry. He had no time for discussions. He noticed also that you had a watch. So when aproached by you, he choose to take the fastest way out.

My point being that if you had been openminded to green poeple you probably would have experience somthing else. And by open minded I mean that you don't define which answers and situtations are the correct ones. By defining them your just defining yourself.

It's OK to have your own meaning. And I'm fine with you not liking traditional arts. But stating that your meeting them with an open mind, I just have to point out that your not.

/Yari


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## kaizasosei

What do you mean exactly by tradition. Both what it is and how one benefits from it. 

by tradition, i mean the different arts that have been either passed down over the ages or put together recently nevertheless being rich in history or tradition.
  for example, wushu, karate-jujutsu/judo- kendo - aikijutsu  -  one could definately include kickboxing as it is part of thai culture.  so the training of the kickboxers will often follow traditional patterns or routines-supplemented with lots of knowledge gained from the longstanding arts.

so by tradition, i mean all classic martial arts that were not invented yesterday.  of course, on the other hand, one could say that mma is a budding tradition.  after all, we are not putting any time frame as a reference to how long it takes to start a tradition.
  this reminds me of the word authentic in it's original greek meaning.  it was interesting for me to learn that authentas signifies not only the verity of a subject or matter, authentas also implies somebody who does things in order achieve the goals he needs to achieve- not someone who blindly follows the teachings of others..but actually someone who is able to create his own teachings by understanding the true essence of what needs to be achieved. someone who does it on his own,,-  sortof hard to put into words-dunno if it makes sense.



j


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## theletch1

Makes sense to me.  It's very much along the lines of something that happens in class with my instructor.  The art that we study is a traditional art.  The techniques will all have very small variations depending on the person doing the attacking and the person doing the defending.  Therefore, even though the techniques are "traditional" they must be up-dated for the individual.  My instructor teaches the technique as it is traditionally done and then says "Now, make it your own."  Very much "authentas".


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