# Hiroku Book



## gregtca (Apr 6, 2012)

Hi has anyone seen , read or got this book,  I have have read a lot of articles , but can't seem to track down these books by Fujita Seiko .


----------



## Chris Parker (Apr 6, 2012)

Hi Greg, 

No, haven't read that one. I've gone through a couple of Fujita's books, though, and have a copy of his book on Hojo, which is quite an interesting piece. You might want to contact Futago Trader to see if they can track it down (they can find some good stuff...)


----------



## gregtca (Apr 7, 2012)

Thanks Chris,

Havent found it yet , but I did find this on page 6 
www.japanese-books.com

Only issue it's all in Japanese,


----------



## Chris Parker (Apr 7, 2012)

Hmm, that link didn't show much.... but here's another avenue for you. http://ryukyu-bugei.com/?page_id=70


----------



## gregtca (Apr 7, 2012)

Yes good site , been looking at that one, did you see the "kuki (Kukami) Busho No Kenkyu" book on page 6 , would be great to have that translated ?


----------



## Chris Parker (Apr 7, 2012)

On the Wordpress blog page I linked? No, didn't see anything about Kukishin there... and the page you linked just tells me that the domain name is available for sale... so there's no "page 6" on either of them. Can you give a direct link?


----------



## Jameswhelan (Apr 7, 2012)

gregtca said:


> Yes good site , been looking at that one, did you see the "kuki (Kukami) Busho No Kenkyu" book on page 6 , would be great to have that translated ?


I translated it for myself for translation practice. It's mostly lists of documents about Nakatomi Shinto and brief discussion of the contents. There's very little related to martial arts - it's mostly odd ideas about Koshinto. There's some stuff about Tenshin Hyoho, but again just lists of contents and brief comments. It's not as detailed as Kuki Shinden Zensho.


----------



## gregtca (Apr 7, 2012)

http://www.japanese-book.com/item/list/34/5/

http://www.japanese-book.com/item/list2/26461/

try this Chris,
James are you speaking of the book I listed above , or the hiroku book ? Also I note that Fujita wrote a "hojo" book as well, and before anyone thinks I'm into Koga ninjutsu , it should be made aware that Fujita seiko never passed that training onto anyone , as far as I can find, I just would like to read his books to get a different view of training , history etc, it seems he and hatsumi were linked at a time in the past , maybe through a 3rd party , 
anyway thanks guys 
Regards
Greg


----------



## Chris Parker (Apr 7, 2012)

Ah, that's better!

I'm sure James is referring to the Kukishin book you mentioned (Kukami Busho no Kenkyu), as he's then talking about Kukishinden Zensho, considered to be just about the ultimate publication on Kukishin material (I'm organising a copy of that for myself as we speak, actually...).

With regard to Fujita's books, the four best known are on Hojo, Jo, Shuriken, and Kyusho. I have a copy of the Hojo one, the Jo one is basically Seitei Jo with some Shinto Muso in there, the Kyusho one doesn't have anything not found in other sources, and the Shuriken one is also pretty good. From there, there were other books, such as the one you're looking for (which was his first, I believe).


----------



## Jameswhelan (Apr 7, 2012)

gregtca said:


> James are you speaking of the book I listed above , or the hiroku book ?



The Kuki Bunsho no Kenkyu (as quoted ).



			
				www.japanese-book.com said:
			
		

> Though it has no illustrations and photos,it is a great reference for those who are interested in Kukishin-ryu.
> 
> If you are interested in Japanese martial arts like Kukishin-ryu, this book would be a great collection for you!



This is very odd. It has next to nothing to to do with Kukishin ryu (and nothing whatever to do with Kukishinden Happo Biken, which Takamatsu appears to have realigned along Izumo Shinden ideas after 1950, away from Nakatomi Shinden). It's a book about Shinto. You won't find it in the martial arts section of a library. It'd be listed with Kuki Shinden Zensho in the Shinto section. 

Korisuya might be able to to help you find Fujita Seiko books.


----------



## gregtca (Apr 7, 2012)

Thanks James,
hey Chris you couldn't give me details of the book as well , sounds like a great book to get ?


----------



## Chris Parker (Apr 8, 2012)

A bit of info on Kukishinden Zensho: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43100

A possible source, although you may have a wait on your hands: http://budoguten.futagotrader.com/books/ (third from the bottom).

Of course, if you're talking about Seiko Fujita's book on Hojo, that's quite a different book. It's basically a list of all the ties and methods from a large range of Ryu-ha that Fujita knew, illustrated in their final position, and descriptions in Japanese. Quite an impressive book, really.


----------



## gregtca (Apr 8, 2012)

Chris, 
would this be any good ,http://www.budoya.org/Books/Densho/Kuki-Bo.html

Seems very difficult english documents on this subject


----------



## Chris Parker (Apr 9, 2012)

That's Paul Richardson's site, from memory. What you're looking at there is a very different type of publication. If you're after the kata from the Ryu-ha, sure, but if you're after the history, philosophy, and other information beyond the techniques, you won't find it there. Additionally, it's not quite "as advertised" ("contains all the kata"), as the Bojutsu aspect there is missing the Shoden, Chuden, Okuden sections (interestingly taught as a different line/Ryu in the Genbukan, taught before the Keiko Sabaki gata in the Jinenkan, and rarely taught in the Bujinkan, where it's believed to come from a different line, the Kijin Chosui Ryu). I haven't seen Paul's notes, but he tends to do a fair bit of research, so could be good. It's not really what you're looking at in the earlier books, though.


----------



## gregtca (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks Chris,

yep if i had 50,000 yen i might buy the other , but then stuck with getting it translated , it seems to me that there are 4 main "off-shoots " or lines now days of kukishinden , i will just have to keep looking , something will come up , i'm sure ,

Regards
Greg


----------



## Chris Parker (Apr 9, 2012)

Which are you listing as the four main lines, out of interest?


----------



## gregtca (Apr 9, 2012)

Without going back over all the web sites to get and list all the info I read, but it seems that Hatsumi and Manaka and Tanamura all claim some form of inheretence , as well as a Japanese named Tanaka who seems a bit suss, interesting that the main web site doesn't appear anymore, or at least every link I tried, it said somewhere that they just study religious things , no budo study's at all, .
Dont forget this is just all picked off various web sites over the Easter weekend, which brings up why I want to get hold of the original books , Dersho , just to investergate more about it ,
Fasinating stuff , I think 
Regards,
Greg


----------



## Chris Parker (Apr 9, 2012)

Ah, okay. I was thinking you meant that all the Kukishin forms boiled down to four main branches...

Yeah, Hatsumi got his line from Takamatsu, obviously, although it seems that he's chosen to keep everything related under one "main" heading (Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken), when it looks like the actual make-up of the system comes from a range of different lines. Tanemura got his primarily from Masaji Kimura, and obviously Manaka got his from Hatsumi. To clarify, though, Manaka has a teaching licence in Kukishin Ryu from Hatsumi, so that's the same line, just in a different organisation. 

Tanaka Fumon's line he traces from Saburoji Minaki, where he claims he was brought in as a "secret disciple" to train with the 19th Soke of Hontai Kukishin and Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu (this was the generation where the Takagi Ryu split into a few branches, such as the Ishitani and Mizuta Den). So his line is a separate line, removed by a couple of generations now, and there are certainly pictures of Fumon training with Minaki, so take it for what it is.

Within the Genbukan, there are a wider range of Kukishin-related lines taught, some of which are the same as found in the Bujinkan (but separated in the Genbukan), and others which are a bit different. For example, the aforementioned "Shoden, Chuden, Okuden" sections of Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu are taught in the Genbukan as being Shinden Tatara Ryu Bojutsu. Then there's Shinden Tatara Ryu Taijutsu, Kukishinden Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, Hontai Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu, and so on. The material taught in the Shobukyokai are also preserved there.


----------



## Jameswhelan (Apr 9, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Tanaka Fumon's line he traces from Saburoji Minaki, where he claims he was brought in as a "secret disciple" to train with the 19th Soke of Hontai Kukishin and Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu.



He trained as training partner for Matsuda Kyodo (a well known Shinto Muso ryu teacher). Mr Minaki nominated Mr Matsuda the 18th generation successor of Minaki-den Kukishin ryu. Mr Matsuda promptly nominated Mr Fumon as 19th generation successor. There were no licences in Takagi ryu issued, as I understand it.

I think you are garbling up Matsuda Kyodo and Kaminaga Shigemi. Mr Kaminaga is 18th head of Hontai Takagi Yoshin ryu Mizuta-den jujutsu (counting from Takagi Oriuemon) and 18th head of Amatsu Tatara Kukishin ryu bojutsu (very different bojutsu).

This Minaki-den bojutsu is very interesting; it's closer to the bojutsu taught by Mr Kusuhara than to the bojutsu transmitted in Hontai Yoshin ryu. 



Chris Parker said:


> (this was the generation where the Takagi Ryu split  into a few branches, such as the Ishitani and Mizuta Den).



Mizuta branched his line in the fifteenth generation of the school. A few generations back from here.



Chris Parker said:


> ...Hontai Kukishin...



Hontai Kukishin ryu is a school passed from Dr Sato to Mr Tanemura.
(Amatsu Tatara Kukishin ryu: Takamatsu>Ueno>Kaminaga
Minaki-den Kukishin ryu: Minaki>Matsuda>Tanaka)


----------



## gregtca (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks guys,interesting comments, from my understandiing, kukishinden had sword,Bo,handbook,and jutte ,forms is that correct , and do all these ppl train in all forms , it seems to me that hatsum , does , but isn't very clear about what is or isn't, also seems a lot of bujinkan was and is kukishin systems , but you weren't told it was ?
Regards
Greg

Ps more latter off to work


----------



## Jameswhelan (Apr 9, 2012)

gregtca said:


> ...kukishinden had sword,Bo,handbook,and jutte ,forms is that correct...


 Kukishinden Happo Biken, yes. Spear, naginata, taijutsu, kodachi, jo, bisento, some outstanding hanbo and heiho too. Maybe some Genbukan guys here can tell us about archery in Kukishinden Happo Biken?



gregtca said:


> seems a lot of bujinkan was and is kukishin systems



Very, very salient point IMO!  That and Takagi ryu.


----------



## gregtca (Apr 9, 2012)

http://ninjutsudensho.com/
thoughts anyone ?


----------



## Chris Parker (Apr 11, 2012)

Thanks for the clarifications and corrections, James. I was going by memory... dammit.

Greg, honestly I don't see much that fills me with hope there... just a feeling, I guess. If you want, you could try getting one or two to see what you think. At least they're not $500 each.


----------

