# Locked Wing...



## kenpo3631 (Jul 12, 2002)

What Power Principle (PP) is employed in the delivery of the outward elbow strike.

The same question holds true for the Left Uppercut arm break. :asian:


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## Scott Bonner (Jul 12, 2002)

Feels like Torque to me.


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> 
> *Feels like Torque to me. *



Why torque?


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> 
> *
> 
> Why torque? *



I forgot to ask. Which strike are you refering to? Both or just one?


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## Rainman (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> 
> *What Power Principle (PP) is employed in the delivery of the outward elbow strike.
> 
> The same question holds true for the Left Uppercut arm break. :asian: *




Rotational torque, body momentum, gravitational marriage and focus (mind body breath), timing, accuracy and speed- along with placement, position, and structural alignment... for both.

Here's one for you- What kind of power? 


 :asian:


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 12, 2002)

> Rotational torque, body momentum, gravitational marriage and focus (mind body breath), timing, accuracy and speed- along with placement, position, and structural alignment... for both.



That's great! However I just wanted the *MAIN* power principle for those strikes.



> focus (mind body breath), timing, accuracy and speed- along with placement, position, and structural alignment



These have nothing to do with the underlying power principle although they do help you to get the job done.



> body momentum, gravitational marriage



I thought gravitational marriage was a division of body momentum?




> Here's one for you- What kind of power?



The power to make the strike work. Power is derived from the power principles. :asian:


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## Rainman (Jul 12, 2002)

> That's great! However I just wanted the MAIN power principle for those strikes



There are no main power principles



> These have nothing to do with the underlying power principle although they do help you to get the job done.



yes they do otherwise I would not have posted them.



> I thought gravitational marriage was a division of body momentum?



in this case gravity aids vertically mometum aids horizontally with the torque factor.



> The power to make the strike work. Power is derived from the power principles



Intermittent power= occurs at the moment of rooting is the culmination of focus

:asian:


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 12, 2002)

> There are no main power principles



No? heard of marriage of gravity, torque, and back up mass? Those are the three main ways to create power. 



> focus (mind body breath), timing, accuracy and speed- along with placement, position, and structural alignment ---yes they do otherwise I would not have posted them.



I don't doubt that these principles will accentuate the strike, but I still say they are derivitives of the underlying  power principle.



> in this case gravity aids vertically mometum aids horizontally with the torque factor.



You lost me on that one....


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## Rainman (Jul 12, 2002)

> No? heard of marriage of gravity, torque, and back up mass? Those are the three main ways to create power.



They  don't create power- They are conduits of power... meaning they carry and help to release it and or magnify it.



> You lost me on that one....



Okay, Let me try this-  Momentum goes in all directions and  works with all the conduits of power.  In passive power- gravity and rooting is not used.  An example could be striking while not rooted.

The underlying power principle:  A point of reference would be more accurate.  The lists of things working together is very long.  The minor things I pointed out are the most important to me as far as controlling and understanding my actions.  The most extreme power comes from focus.  All the other stuff (besides alignment-very important-there is your backup mass and rooting built in) occur anyways.


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 12, 2002)

> They don't create power- They are conduits of power... meaning they carry and help to release it and or magnify it.



These principles were defined by Mr. Parker  so that we would be standardized. Term "Rooting", as you defined it is nothing more than what Mr. Parker termed as "Settling your base". "Passive power"...How can you have "passive power"? The word _power_ as defined in the dictionary as a verb is:

transitive senses
1 : to supply with power and especially motive power
2 : to give impetus to
intransitive senses
1 : to move about by means of motive power
2 : to move with great speed or force 

"to move with great speed and force"... So how do you get "passive power". 

This is just how _I_ think...:asian:


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## Rainman (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Great inquiry:

Minor moves used to position and set up.  Another example would be striking inbetween stances such as darting mace.  If action was stopped the transitional cat could act as a rooting point.  However momentum (in the form of directional harmony) carries you forward.  Absence of settling and rooting- 

Got interupted lost my train of thought does- this make better sense?   If it doesn't hopefully it will lead to further discussion and questions.

:asian:


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## jazkiljok (Jul 12, 2002)

marriage of gravity is a "concept " that uses many of the principles that rainman is listing.

it is not a principle in and of itself.

at least that's what it says in Parker's Insights book.

so perhaps that's a part of communication problem here.

(or, uhmm, should the rest of us just stay out of this one?...)


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## Rainman (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> 
> *marriage of gravity is a "concept " that uses many of the principles that rainman is listing.
> 
> ...



By all means jump right in- Gravitational marriage is a universal law always working just can be enhanced or manipulated to our benefit... and welcome jaz k


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 12, 2002)

So are you saying that "passive power" = Minor moves used to position and set up? I thought we termed those as "transitions" or simply "minor moves"?



> Another example would be striking inbetween stances such as darting mace. If action was stopped the transitional cat could act as a rooting point. However momentum (in the form of directional harmony) carries you forward. Absence of settling and rooting-



First...why would you want to stop in the middle of a self defense technique??? 

You cannot "root" in a cat stance. Well...let me rephrase that.  You can, but would you really want to? It is a transitional stance as are all others. The only stance that is not a transition is the Neutral Bow.

Directional Harmony, and I am para-phrasing here, is when everything is in alignment and moving in correlation with each other in the same direction. I do not dispute that you technique example has this. However, what is making that heelpalm hurt so much? Making it so devastating? It is your weight in line with your strike on a horizontal plane... better known as "Back Up Mass". 

So can you see what I mean when I say by the "Underlying Power Principle" :asian:


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## Rainman (Jul 12, 2002)

> So are you saying that "passive power" = Minor moves used to position and set up? I thought we termed those as "transitions" or simply "minor moves"?



No- a cutout example- I don't use that term. 



> First...why would you want to stop in the middle of a self defense technique???



You don't- but in the process of examining a combination you may specifically look at each movement and what is does and some of its workings.



> You cannot "root" in a cat stance. Well...let me rephrase that. You can, but would you really want to? It is a transitional stance as are all others. The only stance that is not a transition is the Neutral Bow.



Yes you can- checking the storm- for the strike-grab-control with the extended outward block.  I am offline(by step drag or whatever) and out of the power zone but momentarily rooted in the cat for stability-



> Directional Harmony, and I am para-phrasing here, is when everything is in alignment and moving in correlation with each other in the same direction. I do not dispute that you technique example has this. However, what is making that heelpalm hurt so much? Making it so devastating? It is your weight in line with your strike on a horizontal plane... better known as "Back Up Mass".



Alignment-  back up mass- gravitational marriage- torque- directional harmony- and lotsa other things.  Focus is the culmination of all these things on impact.  Unification is what I trying to convey.  These things all work with each other simultaneously for the best results.

Yes I know what you are saying- Why?  Because I was using things in that context for a long time.   Optimum results mean all things working on impact.  Make sense?

 :asian:


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 12, 2002)

> Yes you can- checking the storm- for the strike-grab-control with the extended outward block. I am offline(by step drag or whatever) and out of the power zone but momentarily rooted in the cat for stability-




The term transition as dfined below:

1 a : passage from one state, stage, subject, or place to another : CHANGE b : a movement, development, or evolution from one form, stage, or style to another.

Is right on the money with what you are saying. You are moving from one point to another. However in Kenpo transitions for the most part are temporary. "Rooting" in a cat, to me is very unstable, you can do it, butI wouldn't recommend it.

As far as "Strike-grab-control" is concerned, if you can strike a moving arm in the case of Checking the Storm, good for you. My main concern would be to break him at the waist to control his height, hence the name "checking the storm"... 



> Why? Because I was using things in that context for a long time. Optimum results mean all things working on impact



That is true.


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## Rainman (Jul 12, 2002)

> Is right on the money with what you are saying. You are moving from one point to another. However in Kenpo transitions for the most part are temporary. "Rooting" in a cat, to me is very unstable, you can do it, butI wouldn't recommend it.



An example of intermittent power- same as used in freestyle and hitting on the move.



> As far as "Strike-grab-control" is concerned, if you can strike a moving arm in the case of Checking the Storm, good for you. My main concern would be to break him at the waist to control his height, hence the name "checking the storm"...



Look up block.



> 1 a : passage from one state, stage, subject, or place to another : CHANGE b : a movement, development, or evolution from one form, stage, or style to another.



There are many transitional strikes to go along or coincide with the feet when they are in transition.  Passive power not rooted... not really especially for the point I am trying to make.

Did you get some new ideas?

 :asian:


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## eternalwhitebelt (Jul 12, 2002)

Great discussion so far.  Rainman, I too disagree with some of your use of terminology.  I do not think it is possibe to root in a cat stance.   Checking the storm not withstanding could you further explain why you think you have established your base while in a cat stance?  The order is base, control, technique.  Exceptions are always present ofcourse, as in the example you gave.  I just defy you to resist any type of energy exerted on you while in a cat stance.


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## Rainman (Jul 12, 2002)

Got busy again-

Okay- an excellent observation.  Using opposites and reverses what can you tell me?


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## eternalwhitebelt (Jul 12, 2002)

I don't think we are on the same page.  I think you are explaining checking the storm as strike, grab, control.  I think we are disagreeing on use of vocabulary.  To me the strike is the control because you are inside the opponent, therefore you check his height zone with the kick.  In general terms every good system follows the order balance, control, technque.  In AK terms balance is defined as establish your base.  You picked an excellent technique to discuss this on.  This tells me you know what you are doing.  The first move transitions to a cat stance so our base is not strongly established.  I do not teach to grab the weapon or the hand on the downward strike I do not think that is possible.  I teach a follow up on the horizontal plane that comes and makes contact after we are transitioning out of our twist stance and into another strike and a stronger base. I think this technique could be discussed all day.  Do you study AK because you seem to be using terms in a different manner than most?


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## Rainman (Jul 12, 2002)

> In AK terms balance is defined as establish your base.



No- Balance for humans just means you are stable- every time there is movement it is resaught.  



> To me the strike is the control because you are inside the opponent, therefore you check his height zone with the kick.



3rd range- mine is fourth range



> The first move transitions to a cat stance so our base is not strongly established



mine is... for what it does- I am offline and not defying energy.  I've already cut his power and am now exuding my force to his arm.



> Do you study AK because you seem to be using terms in a different manner than most?



But I think you use them different


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Chad,

First, all torque is rotational by nature, so where did you get the term rotational torque? Doesn't sound right to me.

Second, Rotating Force is the correct term. Torque is a product of Rotating Force.

Third, the main power principle behind the intial outward elbow is rotating force. Although, there are other principles that apply. to this single move.


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 12, 2002)

Is about the original post on Locked Wing.


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## Klondike93 (Jul 12, 2002)

I'm still lost on where Marriage of Gravity is used in this technique.

I see the other principles involved but not that one, and I'm thinking in terms of how it's used in ones like Delayed Sword or Sword of Destruction etc....


:asian:


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## eternalwhitebelt (Jul 12, 2002)

Just as I thought it is just a matter of semantics.  I think we explan the same things in different ways.



I use marriage with gravity on the arm hyper extension to bring his head into range for the next strike and to continue to check his various zones.

I also stated that in AK balance was usually described in terms of est. a base.  I never said that was its exact definition.


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## Rainman (Jul 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



It's not right it is like saying torque-torque.  Got interupted didn't catch the misprint.   Didn't even notice until now.

There are no main power principles- in order to unwind to get to torque a movement must precede that- it is how our bodies are set up in conjuction with... well you know the rest  It is based off intertia.   For me the initial movement starts things the unwind comes after the step/slide which coincides with positioning-placement and alignment.  In this particular case torque is just realignment to the natural state.  The rest fall into line with impact for the best results. 



> I'm still lost on where Marriage of Gravity is used in this technique



on the drop with the elbow.  its time frame is minute.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 14, 2002)

more, more.....

:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Jul 14, 2002)

I think I need a better of understanding of it. I'm thinking it could only happen if your body is dropping (the outward hand sword in delayed sword is what I'm equating it to). Help me out here I don't see where my body drops.



:asian:


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## Rainman (Jul 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *I think I need a better of understanding of it. I'm thinking it could only happen if your body is dropping (the outward hand sword in delayed sword is what I'm equating it to). Help me out here I don't see where my body drops.
> 
> ...



Okay-

Hows about every time you hit a stance.  GM works every time you step... You being a martial artist will manipulate it for maximum potential.

Better?


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## Klondike93 (Jul 14, 2002)

Ok, I see what you mean.


The light bulb has come on, thank you.


:asian:


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## Rainman (Jul 14, 2002)

You're welcome 


:asian:


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## jazkiljok (Jul 15, 2002)

i'm unclear on what folks here are referring to as rooting?

i only understand this as a chuanfa term and is associated with the internal side of the arts- the most outwardly expresssion of that is the "unmovable" postures- such as people attempting to push you over from a sitting position or pick you up in a horse stance, etc...- rooting is considered a "state of being" for lack of better description in which your connection to the earth is enhanced incredibly, your balance and stability firm as a strong  tree.

in the instance it has been used- i read that Rainman say that he roots when in a cat stance. and of course those who disagree with this.

is this the meaning that everyone is using or is this a different "root"?


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *I think I need a better of understanding of it. I'm thinking it could only happen if your body is dropping (the outward hand sword in delayed sword is what I'm equating it to). Help me out here I don't see where my body drops.
> 
> ...



Gravitational Marriage is force applied on a vertical or diagonal plane. 

Alot of todays Kenpo students relate this particular power principle only to movements in which their body drops or settles, but it also applies to other movements. The looping overhead back knuckle strike contained in the fourth sequence of Flashing Mace is a good example of this.
 
*FLASHING MACE* _(Front right stepthrough punch)_ 

1. Standing naturally, step to 11:00 with your left foot into a left neutral bow as you deliver a left inward block to the outside of your opponent's right arm (at or above his elbow). Simultaneous with the block, cock your right hand above your right shoulder (palm out). Be sure to have your left knee positionally check your opponent's right knee.

2. Immediately step through with your right foot toward 10:30 into a transitional right neutral bow as you deliver a right inward diagonal back knuckle rake to your opponent's right cheek bone or temple. While striking, have your left hand in a positional check. (Your opponent's head should be driven back).

3. Without hesitation, pivot counterclockwise 180 degrees and strike to your opponent's right lower ribcage with a left outward horizontal back knuckle. In the same motion, have your right hand execute an inward heel palm bracing angle check to your opponent's right upper arm. (Your opponent should bend forward at the waist.)

4. Follow up with a left upward hooking check (your left hand looks like a waiter carrying a tray) on top of your opponent's right arm. As you drop into a left wide kneel stance, continue the motion of your right arm and without loss of motion, have your right hand circle counterclockwise as you loop a right overhead back knuckle strike to your opponent's face or left temple. Be sure to utilize Marriage of Gravity when executing this strike. (Your opponent's head should snap back.)

5. Left front crossover and cover out toward 10:30.
 
The collision created by having your opponent's head descend into your back knuckle is defined as Borrowed Force or Opposing Forces. Never the less, the descention of your opponent's upper body is assisted by gravity, and your looping overhead back knuckle strike (if properly executed) should be travelling on a vertical plane to meet your opponent's face (or temple) while it is descending... Therefore, Gravitational Marriage is the key component to this move.

To me Gravitational Marriage dosn't neccessarily mean that you're dropping your weight into your attacker... or settling (or rooting) into your stance, it can also apply in situations which involve you using your opponent's weight against him.

Hope this helps,
Billy

P.S. The definition of Flashing Mace, as it is written above, was taken (word for word) from the I.K.K.A. Blue Belt Manual which was published by Ed Parker Sr. in 1987.


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## jazkiljok (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



are you  using "rooting" interchangeably with settling? is everyone else doing the same?

just trying to follow the conversation.

thanks for all clarification.

:asian: 

ps- i think that borrowed force is your more appropriate term in that instance - - unless you want to add the concept and terminology of "reverse gravitational marriage" - a some what debated term that does essentially means borrowed force on a diagnol or vertical plane.

terms aren't the thing itself- they are ways of communicating ideas and concepts- gravitational marriage to have any real meaning does need to stay within a certain boundary of use or it will be void of any clear meaning. this is not to say that elements of gravitational marriage aren't being applied to your scenario- 

just one more opinion.


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 15, 2002)

There is no such thing as reverse gravitational marriage, becuase there is no such thing as reverse gravity... You either have gravity, or you don't. Although I understand where you are comming from.

Take Care,
Billy

P.S. I would guess that the term rooting and settling are the same concept.


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## Kirk (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> 
> *There is no such thing as reverse gravitational marriage, becuase there is no such thing as reverse gravity... You either have gravity, or you don't. Although I understand where you are comming from.
> 
> ...



I guess this is one of the principles that people argue?  I've heard
of reverse gravitational marriage before, and the fact that it does
or doesn't exist is plausible on both sides of the argument IMO.
Is there a principle then, for a vertical upward movement?  I 
would say, it has to be a named principal.  If you bend in a deep
stance, and stand almost straight up when executing a vertical
downward upward strike (say an uppercut), you're putting more
power behind the strike, just like torquing for a horizontal strike.
Or am I way off base here?


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



The vertical upward movement to which you are reffering is still considered Gravitational Marriage.

Let me ask you this... If you set a spear in the ground and your opponent jumped off of a wall and impaled himself on the spear, would you call it Reverse Gravitational Marriage or Gravitational Marriage?

Take Care,
Billy


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## fanged_seamus (Jul 15, 2002)

> FROM KIRK:
> If you bend in a deep stance, and stand almost straight up when executing a vertical downward upward strike (say an uppercut), you're putting more power behind the strike, just like torquing for a horizontal strike.



Isn't this principle closer to Back-Up Mass rather than Gravitational Marriage?

Back Up Mass requires that you channel your weight and motion in the same direction as the strike (in this case, vertically as your center of gravity moves up).  Gravitational Marriage would require your opponent to be moving down (unless you want to argue a physics "frame of reference" thing).

To me, Gravitational Marriage requires the center of gravity of the attacker or defender to be moving down.  In the case of the center of gravity moving up, I'd say Back Up Mass is the principle.

Just my thoughts.  Attach value as you see fit....

Tad Finnegan


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## eternalwhitebelt (Jul 15, 2002)

Or to keep it simple, you could just call it backup mass.  The two are the same thing, just on different  planes, one vertical, one horizontal.


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## jazkiljok (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> 
> *There is no such thing as reverse gravitational marriage, becuase there is no such thing as reverse gravity... You either have gravity, or you don't. Although I understand where you are comming from.
> 
> ...



Actually this discussion is simply the point Im trying to make- there is less consensus on the meaning of terms then one would think.

If you try to explain this term GM to some one in physics by the way, they will only give you an amused look. I mean it only means something to us whove seen the concept in the context of the martial arts.

Now Im not here to debate usage of Reverse GM- when I defined the term you were able to understand what it meant (btw please feel free to criticize Ed Parker- i've had it on good authority that he was the first to circulate its use). 

Its again as I said not the terms themselves but what we agree that they mean thats important. And of course only important to a conversation and as a means to convey information.

As for rooting and settling- good example again- not the same from where I come from. Rooting is an internal arts term and it can be employed while sitting, standing, walking or on one foot and yes fighting. time duration doesnt matter, so transitional footwork doesn't alter this ability if learned. 

In the previous posts I could easily see two people talking about something that though appearing similar, are really quite different in nature.

Did they both mean rooting or did they mean settling?

I really dont know. Do you?

Peace


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 16, 2002)

Fanged Seamus...

I agree with you about your annalysis of Kirk's hypothetical situation.

My point about Gravitational Marriage is that _your_ center of gravity doesn't necessarily have to be the one falling in order to augment the effect of a strike.

Back-up Mass and Gravitational Marriage can apply to the same movement too...

These are very good posts guys... I look forward to your input.

Take Care,
Billy


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## Rainman (Jul 16, 2002)

> As for rooting and settling- good example again- not the same from where I come from. Rooting is an internal arts term and it can be employed while sitting, standing, walking or on one foot and yes fighting. time duration doesnt matter, so transitional footwork doesn't alter this ability if learned.



Agreed- settling is different- rooting as it relates to intermittent power.  I think settling can make movements mechanical.



> Back Up Mass requires that you channel your weight and motion in the same direction as the strike (in this case, vertically as your center of gravity moves up). Gravitational Marriage would require your opponent to be moving down (unless you want to argue a physics "frame of reference" thing).



that is more along the lines of directional harmony.  alignment has something to do with backup mass.



> There is no such thing as reverse gravitational marriage, becuase there is no such thing as reverse gravity



yes there is- use opposites and reverses to find it.



> To me Gravitational Marriage dosn't neccessarily mean that you're dropping your weight into your attacker... or settling (or rooting) into your stance, it can also apply in situations which involve you using your opponent's weight against him



depends on how you are using that- checking height by compression yes but it is only one small element.   Your example is one of a gravitational pull.  A universal law that can be enhanced by exertion of force or pressure applied to an idividual.  Again only an element but a necessary one.  Without gravitity working no can slam someone to the ground etc.


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## Klondike93 (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> 
> *
> 
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Me being a rookie, I would have thought Borrowed Force. The spear is using the borrowing the force of the person jumping off the wall to get the job done. But as the person jumping found out, gravity works.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 16, 2002)

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The earth sucks.......
:rofl: 

:asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> The earth sucks.......
> ...



IS THERE A DRAGONSLAYER IN THE HOUSE?

:lol:


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## GouRonin (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *IS THERE A DRAGONSLAYER IN THE HOUSE?*



You bellowed oh great one?


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## Kirk (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
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That makes perfect sense, thanks!


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## Rainman (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
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:rofl: :rofl:  Great timing on that one.  



:asian:


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## Sigung86 (Jul 16, 2002)

So then we're really talking about marriage of suck and reverse marriage of suck????   I think this better stop now before it slides off into the gutter!  :lol:

Good discussion though...

And to finish ... I had one Kenpo Senior, who shall remain nameless for  safety's sake, tell me that he uses Reverse Marriage of Gravity to whiten his teeth...  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Dan


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## jeffkyle (Jul 17, 2002)

That is the question!!!!


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## GouRonin (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *That is the question!!!! *



...must...resist ...urge... to... be... sarcastic...


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## jeffkyle (Jul 17, 2002)

That went out the window!!


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## brianhunter (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> 
> *That is the question!!!! *



guess I better watch my back when we work out MMMWHWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH


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## jeffkyle (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *
> 
> guess I better watch my back when we work out MMMWHWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH *





If you can actually see your back, however you may do that, then i don't want to work out with you...contrary to what you think, i don't go that direction.


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## Sigung86 (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *
> 
> guess I better watch my back when we work out MMMWHWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH *



Man!  Having to have an attitude like that while working out ...
must really suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Uh ... OK ...  In order to keep Gou in line, I will stop now.

Saintly Uncle Dan


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## brianhunter (Jul 17, 2002)

man Ive been laughing at the computer this morning thanks guys!! My kids think Im going crazy!!


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## jeffkyle (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *man Ive been laughing at the computer this morning thanks guys!! My kids think Im going crazy!! *




Anything to make you look crazy to others...


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 17, 2002)




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## kenpo3631 (Jul 18, 2002)

I have to agree with Bill Lear that their is no "reverse" gravity, that would actually be a "divorce"...:rofl: 

I look at it this way. There are many types of back up mass. 

Vertical Back Up Mass (Marriage of Gravity) - Using body weight on a vertical plane.

Horizontal Back Up Mass - Using body weight on a horizontal plane.

Isolated Back Up Mass - As in a finger whip, you are using the weight of just your hand while striking....(however, if you ever felt Mr. Parker's or Mr. Mills finger whips you'd swear you wear whipped with a sledge hammer... ).

Full Body Back Up Mass - As in a flying side kick.

I just kinda look at stuff in that context. Just my opinion... :asian:


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## Seig (Jul 18, 2002)

I havenoticed that a lot of other systems use Marriage of Gravity.  To use an example, a friend of mine has started introducing some FMA to me and I have noticed that when he uses strikes that he often pulls down and drops his weight when he executes the strike.  I also had a visiting BB from another style last night and while he and one of my studens were working on Flashing Mace that he had a tendency to drop into a twist stance on the spinning back fist.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 18, 2002)

Seig,

You must be talking about the guy that looks like Pee-Wee Herman and you can fit two of him into your work clothes


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 


  You better get rid of him before your students pick up all kind of "unusual" habits.

or he teaches TessMania to USE that APD..........


Hee-Hee!

Hah-Hah!

Ho-Ho!


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## Seig (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Stick Dummy _
> 
> *Seig,
> 
> ...


Nah, I think I'll let him continue to come around.  I need the comic relief.:rofl:


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## KenpoTess (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Stick Dummy _
> 
> *Seig,
> 
> ...



Ohhhh *rubbing hands together with a diabolical smirk on face.. Yes. .where is that guy who can teach me to USE that APD.. right now it's just sitting there and doing Naught.. collecting dust at that~!!


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 19, 2002)

I have to agree with Bill Lear that their is no "reverse" gravity, that would actually be a "divorce"... 

I look at it this way. There are many types of back up mass. 

Vertical Back Up Mass (Marriage of Gravity) - Using body weight on a vertical plane.

Horizontal Back Up Mass - Using body weight on a horizontal plane.

Isolated Back Up Mass - As in a finger whip, you are using the weight of just your hand while striking....(however, if you ever felt Mr. Parker's or Mr. Mills finger whips you'd swear you wear whipped with a sledge hammer... ).

Full Body Back Up Mass - As in a flying side kick.

I just kinda look at stuff in that context. Just my opinion...


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## Doc (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *
> 
> By all means jump right in- Gravitational marriage is a universal law always working just can be enhanced or manipulated to our benefit... and welcome jaz k *



"When you shuffle your body forward and do an elbow strike, you're using Body Momentum. As your body shuffles forward, it adds power to the strike. 
On the other hand, if your opponent is leaning over and you drop your body weight down while you strike, that's the concept of gravitational marriage. You take advantage of gravity, and it's that marriage of my action with gravity that enhances the power of my action. You're marrying the movement with gravity." 

*"But body momentum is different.* It involves having mass move in a direction with your weapon so it has added power. If I shuffle and execute a move, I'm gaining body momentum on a horizontal plane. When I drop and let gravitational marriage come into play, I'm utilizing body momentum on a vertical plane. Or, I could use body momentum diagonally."

"There are about 18 different types of snow to an Eskimo, but to many people closer to the equator, there is only one type. The point? The Eskimos' concept is more refined and is therefore more useful. And that's how a student of American kenpo should view momentum. "The more you can break kenpo down into its component parts, the better you understand it." My whole idea of training is to help individuals work at their maximum, regardless of their limitations."

"The analogy of an aircraft carrier catapult nicely illustrates the effectiveness of body momentum. Essentially, a jet on an aircraft carrier needs a catapult and its own engine to ensure a safe takeoff. The catapult and the engine are useless by themselves. They must work together."

"So when you do a Japanese-style lunging punch, Parker argues, it's just like a jet trying to get off the deck of an aircraft carrier on its own power. But,
when the lower half of your body (the catapult) shuffles and works in perfect
harmony with your fist - the jet engine - you then utilize body momentum in
it's higher form."

Ed Parker Quotes from Black belt magazine circa 1986 talking about Motion-Kenpo


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## Doc (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> 
> *There is no such thing as reverse gravitational marriage, becuase there is no such thing as reverse gravity... You either have gravity, or you don't. Although I understand where you are comming from.
> 
> ...



It would be incorrect to equate the term Gravitaional Marriage to gravity itself in a physical sense. It is only a conceptual term to define how we use a particular concept in American Kenpo.

Therefore, Reverse marriage of Gravity does indeed exist, however none of these terms have any real meaning outside the confines of the conceptual vehicle in which they are used. In other words it's not science and doesn't crossover and interchange with science. Its rellevance is confined to the conceptual vehicle only.

Simply:

Marriage of Gravity - When you use the magnetic pull of the earth on your body to enhance your body function.

Reverse Marriage of Gravity - When you use the magnetic pull of the earth on another to enhance your body function.


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## Doc (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _
> 
> *Great discussion so far.  Rainman, I too disagree with some of your use of terminology.  I do not think it is possibe to root in a cat stance.   Checking the storm not withstanding could you further explain why you think you have established your base while in a cat stance?  The order is base, control, technique.  Exceptions are always present ofcourse, as in the example you gave.  I just defy you to resist any type of energy exerted on you while in a cat stance. *



"Rooting" and "Settling" are not the same thing.

Settling is a term used in most arts as a constituant to an action.

Rooting is a passive action with the additional requirement of both feet equally weighted in a symetrical configuration.

Therefore a "cat" Stance is ineligible by definition.


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## jazkiljok (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *
> 
> ...





yes. no. terminology is in the words of the beholder 

i'll refer all to this site. this is not to form disagreement but to establish that even terms from chaunfa are not universally agreed upon. however  i did base my comments on this interpretation.

http://www.chineseboxing.com/pages/rooting.html


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## Rainman (Jul 22, 2002)

> Ed Parker Quotes from Black belt magazine circa 1986 talking about Motion-Kenpo



For a minute I thought you fell down and bumped your head. 



> yes. no. terminology is in the words of the beholder



You mean definitions...those words are strangely familiar.


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 22, 2002)

Um...aah...I hate to be overly picky, but gravity has zip to do with magnetism--and you can't get anybody to stick to you with magnetism. As Crow T. Robot noted, "And if your hands were metal, that would mean something." Even those who claim that they're manipulating chi don't argue that it's magnetism, but some other force--and short of chi, everything in kenpo can be explained perfectly well in scientific terms, including reverse marriage of gravity. After all, we "reverse" the effects of gravity every time we stand up. 

Of course, the larger issue is the considerable presence of pseudo-science in kenpo.


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## Doc (Jul 22, 2002)

My point was a simple one. Don't mix conceptual vehicles like Ak with hard physical sciences because it creates confusion and misrepresentations. I agree about pseudo-science.

It lay terms gravity is often referred to as a "magnetic attraction." Would you have felt better if I had said, "The natural force of attraction exerted by a celestial body of significant mass?" I think they got the point and I don't think I misled anyone.

If you want to nit pick, there is plenty here, so who else is next?


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 22, 2002)

I've never heard gravity referrred to as a magnetic attraction, though I have heard love called that.

I'm afraid that my point, too, is a simple one: if you're going to claim exactitude in your terminology, then you need to be exact in your terminology.

When I figure out reverse marriage of gravity, I may post more on this string. I've only had it explained and shown to me twice, though, and it is not false modesty when I say that it may take a while. However, it's a real kenpo concept, and may be found in the, "Encyclopedia."

Thanks.


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## Doc (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 
> *I've never heard gravity referrred to as a magnetic attraction, though I have heard love called that.
> 
> ...



It is in the Encylopedia, but the definition there is at best vague, and not what I was taught by Parker. But then the Encylopedia was rushed and printed after he passed from some of his notes. It suggests "reversing the effects of gravity..."

Now with regard to your nit picking, my kenpo terminology is fine, however there will always be several interpretations of terms even in hard science depending on their usage.

As I stated before if you are in such a nit picking mood, there are plenty of other posts here you can examine and autopsy other than just mine I'm sure.


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 23, 2002)

Other than noting that I am sorry you should choose to be ungenerous, I see no point in adding anything further. As I mentioned, I'm still struggling (and expect to be struggling for some time) with both the concept--and the practical exercise--of the term.


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## jazkiljok (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 
> *..." Even those who claim that they're manipulating chi don't argue that it's magnetism, but some other force-- *



The word chi is a generic term used by the asians for energy or anything that has the ability to demonstrate power. Electricity is a type of chi. Magnetism is another type of energy that the chinese would classify as chi. A chemical reaction produced in a chemical test tube would be a type of chi. Still another form of chi would be heat. The list could go on.

Both electrical and magnetic forces play heavily in Dr. Jwing-Ming Yangs theories explaining chi with modern science. he has a few books and articles out on the subject.

and i'm curious- what other force would they be claiming for chi? and who is this they?

*..."Of course, the larger issue is the considerable presence of pseudo-science in kenpo. *[/QUOTE]

yes there is way too much pseudo-science in AK- i'm sure you can find common ground on that with Doc, as well as few others here.

peace.


:asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> 
> *
> The word chi is a generic term used by the asians for energy or anything that has the ability to demonstrate power. Electricity is a type of chi. Magnetism is another type of energy that the chinese would classify as chi. A chemical reaction produced in a chemical test tube would be a type of chi. Still another form of chi would be heat. The list could go on. *



Man, now I understand. So like... uh... er... a woman with big _ Chi-Chi's _ is pretty powerful. Eh? So _ chi-chi's_ can cause a biochemical reaction in men (hormones) that will generate heat (well, at least the way I understand it... the man will get all hot and bothered), which in turn will cause an almost magnetic attraction between a man and a woman? Whoa!!! That's cool!!! I get it!!! Thanks dude!!!

*Next Weeks Post:* Master Key Moves and how to use them when picking up chicks in a nightclub.

All in good fun,
Billy :moon:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 23, 2002)

:shrug:


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 23, 2002)

Billy,


Will this be anything like the Kenpo technique

" 7 Slaps, Traps, and Pinches of the Cha-Cha"

 that Seig has told me about???


I'm starting to like this Kenpo stuff.................


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## Seig (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Stick Dummy _
> 
> *Billy,
> 
> ...


Don't go giving away my super secret stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Doc (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 
> *Other than noting that I am sorry you should choose to be ungenerous, I see no point in adding anything further. As I mentioned, I'm still struggling (and expect to be struggling for some time) with both the concept--and the practical exercise--of the term. *



Well you'll just have to excuse me if I'm a tad sensitive.


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Stick Dummy _
> 
> *Billy,
> 
> ...



Stick Dummy,

Just be sure you practice safe sex... we don't want anybody catching * The Splinters*.

Ouch,
Billy :lol:


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## Seig (Jul 23, 2002)

Splinters?  The only rat in my studio is a stuffed one that sings _Kung Fu Fighting_ and twirls a mace


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## Doc (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Splinters?  The only rat in my studio is a stuffed one that sings Kung Fu Fighting and twirls a mace *



Oh My God. They gave you one of those things too?


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## Kirk (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *
> 
> Oh My God. They gave you one of those things too? *



hehehe ... my instructor was given one too


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## Seig (Jul 24, 2002)

One of my students was given it as a Christmas gift last year.  She brought it in and gave it to me.  I love that thing, I thing it just as funny as it can be.  I generally use it to aggravate my students (more often, aggravate my wife with it).:rofl:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 24, 2002)

Those are cool!

:rofl:


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