# Empty hands Vs a blade



## Brother John (Oct 3, 2002)

I was wanting to get feedback thought on tactics for an empty handed fighter to deal with a knife wielder.
* Note: not a trained knife fighter, but a general street thug type attacker w/a shiv or other knife. I am training in knife fighting and realize that your options diminish a GREAT deal when facing a trained knife fighter.

Thanks for your feedback!!!
All reasonable responses appreciated!!!
Your Brother
John


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## Shinzu (Oct 4, 2002)

the first thing to realize is that you must get out of the way.  accept the fact that when you are facing an attacker with a knife you are most likely going to get cut.  it is very hard to walk away without a scratch.

also you must always be aware of where the knife is.  keep your eye on the one thing that can kill you.  if you are able to block the knife, you must grab the arm as to control the situation.  blocking alone is not enough.

be prepared for anything.  attackers try to conceal the weapon behind their forearm, back, etc.

once you have eliminated the danger do what you must and get the hell out of there. if it is an experienced knife attacker you will have more to worry about.


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## zdubya (Oct 7, 2002)

Here is a question to ask your self. How and when do you make the distinction between this guy being a thug with a shank or a trained knife fighter? Who is to say that your guy hasnt grown up in prison, in a knife culture, and although he has no formal training, can provide a very sufficient knife fight with a shank? You cant train as if the guy cant open a zip lock bag with or without a knife. A Filipino Knife philosophy says that you train as if you are always out numbered, and faced by opponents with more weapons than you have.  If this is the unfortunate situation, then you must be very quick on your feet, make it a point to land several destructive blows before ever trying to lock or disarm and base every move on deception. If you are getting cut then you probably arent moving your feet enough. So, make your body a hard target to hit by maneuvering while using power mechanics to deliver several destructions. Key on the weapon hand or arm then eyes and vital targets, only after sufficient injuries do you attempt to lock or disarm. And when you finally do attempt a lock or take down, do it with authority.  

Zach  Whitson


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## arnisandyz (Oct 8, 2002)

#1 RUN

#2 Carry a knife a learn to use it.  Even if you don't have time to draw it completly, it can be used in a closed position.   Also, by learning the knife on the offensive end you are learning its movements, its strengths and weaknesses which will help when you have no weapon against a knife

#3 look for improvised weapons.  Something is better than nothing.

#4 if all else fails and you have to go in empty handed....hopefully you read #2 and understand how a knife moves.  You can then attempt to parry, deflect, redirect as you go for nerve hits or finger jab to eyes.  Also, it is very difficult to grab a knife out of the air and secure a hold or joint manipulation.  That is why blending with the knife's movements until you can secure a position is is so mportant, if you get good hits while rediecting you may not even have to secure the weapon hand.


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## redfive (Oct 8, 2002)

Good reply, thats right on the money. Good  sound advise.

                          your friend in the arts, Redfive


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## Yari (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> 
> *I am training in knife fighting and realize that your options diminish a GREAT deal when facing a trained knife fighter.
> 
> ...



Your options shouldn't diminish, but change. If they diminish then the style your praticing is'nt 'equiped' for knife fighting. And if knife fighting is very important for you, maybe you should look elsewere.

I have to mention that I see techniques/options as idea's and principles. I don't beleive in " this technique fits this movement" and so on. So if you have a princeple movement it should fit for a knife attack too.

/Yari


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## Humble artist (Oct 9, 2002)

Besides all good tips given,I´ll try to add some new-basics.

Watch how he holds the weapon (grip) if he is holding it with tip down ("ice pick" grip) or is it like holding a hammer?
Why does this matter? It gives you an idea on what he will do,and what will be effective for you to do.
If it is an ice pick grip,opponent is likely to use it to stab downwards (overhead strike,as with a club or hand) or possibly outside-in from shoulder.If he´s holding it like a hammer,he might use it for rising slash/stabs.
if he holds it in a position with tip of blade pointing directly forwards (you know,as from his hip) for straight stab (it has been said among certain military combatants etc. that a person holding the knife like this is possibly skilled with weapon and extremely dangerous.It is possibly more likely for untrained criminal to use former methods)

Some important things to consider-
when facing a person who may be armed with such a weapon,LOOK for his hands-does he try to keep them inside his pockets or hide them (knives can be kept at pockets,wrapped to the back of his neck or hidden in his boot...)
-Keep your distance/personal space (Don´t let him get close easily where he could easily and quickly hurt you without being noticed quickly enough)

Tips:
Try to find something to become "equal" with him,find improvised weapons.
Such objects include:
-chair (if proper,can be an excellent weapon against a knife attack(er) pick the chair by the back,maintain your distance and swing it´s legs toward him.
-rocks or related throwing objects (throwing such against the face provides a short time for you to act trough distraction)
-Your clothes (including):
jacket (can be used offensively thrown and wrapped on attackers head to distract or knife hand wrapped for further immobolization.Best way to use though,may be to wrap it around your arm for protection.Then use that arm for blocking and hold it on front of you)
shoe (can be used for throwing again,besides that you can remove your shoes and put your hands in them if possible,no kidding.This also offers production,boosted blocking and possible striking)
belt (your best take on offensive weapons when it comes to clothing.If you do have a strong belt with a buckle on it,swing the belt towards your attacker´s face in SNAPping motion to harm and distract him.You can train this at home)

And more to come..:
-If you block with your arm,try to rather use your outer forearm for blocking in case you get cut.It´s gonna hurt and bleed but there is less change of getting arteries cut.
-Take advantage of your justified rights (getting attacked with a knife is very dangerous,don´t hesitate to attack vital points while protecting yours)
-Don´t let him force you into against an obstacle (you have to maintain enough space to move,otherwise...well that´s obvious)
-Keep your guard constantly (simple,but you have to be in good position to be ready)

Allright,we have some left:
When it comes to offensive action-
-take away his ability to attack (kick to knee has earned recognition,following this principle you´ll have to take away his ability to harm)
-When you deflect/block/parry/whatever,take immediate offensive action
-In case you´re about to remove the knife from him do not grab the blade which may get you cut more.Strike areas that may directly aid in immobolizing (think about inside wrist,inside lower forearm,back of hand or such nerve hits etc. which may aid in rendering the hand useless)
-Remember if you decide to grab the knife hand,keep in mind he may be able to cut your hand or arm.
-Always choose to escape if possible (yes,I hear you saying that this is true with any confrontation,but it just becomes brighter in this case)
-Learn knife defenses.

I hope I helped.



:asian:


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## arnisador (Jun 30, 2003)

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-slasher30jun30000416,1,1511849.story



> A man wielding a samurai-style sword killed two people and wounded three others at an Irvine supermarket Sunday before his bloody rampage ended with a fatal volley of police gunfire.
> 
> The deadly attack occurred about 9:35 a.m. inside the Albertsons at Culver Drive and Irvine Boulevard, when Joseph Parker, a 30-year-old bagger known for erratic behavior, entered the market where he worked and began slashing employees and customers, witnesses said.



Surprisingly, there's still some value in today's world to knowing how to defend against a sword, including a samuari sword. Aikido, anyone?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 30, 2003)

Two very important things others left out...and I am indeed very serious here:

1)  Make sure you have a will or living trust and that your loved ones know where to find it.

2)  Have health insurance and carry your insurance card wherever you go.

Other than these two gems, I have no techniques that have not already been discussed.


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 18, 2003)

Run!

If you can't run, don't try to take him on empty handed. Throw things at him. Use furniture and such to keep him at a distance. Trash can lids make great shields, even the plastic types. And if there was a fight between a guy with an expensive custom knife and a guy armed with a 4 foot peice of 2x4 my money will be on the 2x4 guy every time. Try sparring with rubber knives and plastic baseball bats and see just how much of an advantage the basball bat guy has.

If he gets in close, control the knife arm while you start to do damage to the rest of him. Expect to take damage, just try to not take too much from the knife. His left fist can break bones, the right hand carrying the knife can kill you with one thrust. If he falls in the struggle, see the advice at the top of my post. Forget the groundfighting stuff!


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## MountainSage (Jul 18, 2003)

Every seen a 300 lb. Carl Lewis.


Mountain Sage


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## c2kenpo (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *I was wanting to get feedback thought on tactics for an empty handed fighter to deal with a knife wielder.
> * Note: not a trained knife fighter, but a general street thug type attacker w/a shiv or other knife. I am training in knife fighting and realize that your options diminish a GREAT deal when facing a trained knife fighter.
> 
> ...



John,

Just a thought even the street thug know how to weild a knife, people in prision practive with one every day they know how to shank and strike quickly and effectivly. These people I would not consider "untrained"  If a person has a knife out in the open you have to consider them trained. You have to make the decisions there not later. You have a knife as far as I am concerened I dont care if my attacker is in a wheelchair I consider them trained and highly dangerous.

The knife has one purpose in any fight *KILL* you have to think and train in the worst case scenario when aginst a knife, stick, or any weapon against empty hand.

Just a thought and getting off now.
:soapbox: 

David Gunzburg


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## DoxN4cer (Jul 20, 2003)

I can only echo some the previous posts...

When facing a knife weildng attacker the first thing you should try is to escape. If you can't find a way to escape, then look for an equalizer (expedient weapon). If possible put as much distance between you and your attacker as possible. Try to use your surroundings and put obstacles (furniture, cars, trees, etc.) in your attackers way. 

Don't expect to egage an attacker armed with a knife without being cut, and NEVER underestimate anyone.

Tim Kashino


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## Jay Bell (Jul 20, 2003)

*Brother John* 



> I am training in knife fighting and realize that your options diminish a GREAT deal when facing a trained knife fighter.



I think I understand what you mean here.  For me personally, when I began working with people a lot more blessed in knifework then I was, reality set it.  What, for many years, was my fooled thoughts of actually being able to deal with knife attacks shriveled up in a matter of a few short classes.  It showed me that skill with a knife against what I'd understood as "real life" previously would have sent me to the morgue pretty fast.

*Shinzu* 



> also you must always be aware of where the knife is. keep your eye on the one thing that can kill you. if you are able to block the knife, you must grab the arm as to control the situation. blocking alone is not enough.



I'm not sure on the specifics of what you meant by keeping your eye on the one that that can kill you...buuuut...just in case..

Awareness of the weapon is of absolute importance.  However, focusing on the weapon itself is extremely dangerous.  Tunnel vision during _any_ type of an attack is not good for your well-being.  

Keep in mind...the knife itself is not the issue.  It's nothing more then a tool.  The danger is coming from the individual wielding the tool...those two things together create a weapon.  Otherwise, the knife is just a sharp piece of metal with a handle.  Looking just beyond the attacker allows the eyes to come out of focus, killing the "tunnel vision" effect that can happen.  If you focus on the knife, not only are you directing your attention and a single fixed location, but any change in that fixed location causes your reaction to lag.


*zdubya* 



> How and when do you make the distinction between this guy being a thug with a shank or a trained knife fighter? Who is to say that your guy hasnt grown up in prison, in a knife culture, and although he has no formal training, can provide a very sufficient knife fight with a shank?



Excellent points!  My personal opinion in the realms of knife and blade fighting is that 'shankers' are amoung the most dangerous.  Also...meeting someone on the street, it is *impossible* to assume how skilled an individual is.  Don't ever believe that you have a situation gauged ahead of time.  

*Humble artist* 



> Watch how he holds the weapon (grip) if he is holding it with tip down ("ice pick" grip) or is it like holding a hammer?  Why does this matter? It gives you an idea on what he will do,and what will be effective for you to do.  If it is an ice pick grip,opponent is likely to use it to stab downwards (overhead strike,as with a club or hand) or possibly outside-in from shoulder.If he´s holding it like a hammer,he might use it for rising slash/stabs.  if he holds it in a position with tip of blade pointing directly forwards (you know,as from his hip) for straight stab (it has been said among certain military combatants etc. that a person holding the knife like this is possibly skilled with weapon and extremely dangerous.It is possibly more likely for untrained criminal to use former methods)



My opinions of this relate to the above.  *Never* assume, just by how someone holds the knife that you understand how it will be used.  This is nothing short of suicide.  Individuals that I consider the best knife "fighters" I have ever met have no fixed way of holding a knife.  They use it however it lies in their hand, and they can change that in the blink of an eye mid-motion.

To try and dictate what an attacker is going to do and how they will attack, in my opinion, is jaded.  The only thing you can do is attempt to prepare for as many situations and variations as you can muster...and work from there.

*Shadow Hunter* 



> Forget the groundfighting stuff!



Horah!  Hands down, I agree.  As James Williams once said, "The last time I used a knife to pass the guard, it worked pretty darn well"

This is not to say that if you are on the ground against a knife wielding attacker that you are helpless.  However...don't expect ne waza to be a way to end the situation.


*c2kenpo* 



> Just a thought even the street thug know how to weild a knife, people in prision practive with one every day they know how to shank and strike quickly and effectivly. These people I would not consider "untrained" If a person has a knife out in the open you have to consider them trained.



Bingo.


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