# Short form 4



## teej (Jul 27, 2004)

Have any of you heard of reference to a "Short Form 4"? 

I saw someone selling a instructional DVD on Ebay and in his description it states that the DVD includes footage of the "rare short form 4".

I have never heard of it and do not believe this exists in a form version. I have heard that Mr. Parker has said that Form 4 can be done as a short version by doing the right side of the first tech., then the left side of the 2nd technique, then the right side of the 3rd, etc. all the way through the form.

Has anyone else heard Mr. Parker refer to this? Have any of you seen SGM Parker demonstrate it in this manner?

I have no idea what is shown on this persons DVD on Ebay, but would speculate it to be someones personal version of something else to practice.

So, any thoughts on this Short Form 4 issue?

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej


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## parkerkarate (Jul 27, 2004)

I have never heard of short 4, but I asked my instructor about that a week or so ago, Joe Palanzo, he said all it is would be the right side of all the techniques


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Jul 27, 2004)

Al Tracy has a video which includes Short 4.  As indicated above, it's Long 4 done on one side.  As I recall Mr. Tracy says on the tape that the form is no longer taught by most instructors.  I think he says it was created due to space problems in the dojo.
Hope this helps.


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## ArnoldLee (Jul 27, 2004)

Not only does it exist, I have a video of Mr. Parker and Mr. Palanzo performing and teaching it at a seminar.  It's a great competition form, very snappy.  You could apply the logic and create "short 5, 6, 7" etc.  by alternating the sides of the techniques like Short 4 does.  However to my knowledge Mr. Parker did not teach those formally (and I don't have any video of him teaching them either).


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## Thesemindz (Jul 27, 2004)

Actually several school do still teach short forms 4, 5, and 6. The school I train in teaches both the short and long versions of each of these forms. I heard that originally they were created so that the students could have a shorter version of the same form to display at competitions. They are mostly similar, including each technique only once instead of twice, and they have some different angle work. To my knowledge there are no short forms beyond 6.


-Rob


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## MisterMike (Jul 28, 2004)

If Short Forms 4,5,6...whatever, are only condensed versions of the long ones, what do they contribute to the system of Kenpo? Are there any ideas/principles/etc. that are not found in the existing long forms that are demonstrated in these short forms?

I have not seen them, but I would assume the answer is no. I'd have to side with some of the posts that they are probably just good for competition/routine practice.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 17, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Regarding Short Forms 4,5,6... (condensed versions of the  long ones), what do they contribute to the system of Kenpo?


 They offer (mostly to the advanced student) a vehicle to  study said form in a shorter version (only on side of any given technique vs.  both).   They can be used in tournaments as a shorter version of our long  examples.   They also offer insights into forms development, variable expansion  of base material and the utilization of the equation formula as applied to  forms.  There are other benefits as well but I would say these are probably the  main ones.



			
				MisterMike said:
			
		

> Are there any ideas/principles/etc. that  are not found in the existing long forms that are demonstrated in these short  forms?


 As stated above, yes there are several ideas suggested  and available for those that wish to embark with this type of study.  

 As  to principles, this is a study unto itself..... these lie everywhere in all that  we do, it is just a matter of recognizing all of them.

 By revealing Short  Form 4, Mr. Parker opened the eyes to many back in the mid 80's to reveal the  flexibility of his system and how we can utilize and engineer seemingly new  aspects yet not stray from the base.   Of course he never imposed this as a  solid requirement, only an option to study for self discovery and advancement if  one so chooses.

 :asian:


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (Aug 25, 2004)

*Where can I find a video ( especially instructional ) of this form? *


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 25, 2004)

The only one's that I have seen were on e-bay.


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## cdhall (Aug 26, 2004)

Hey, that is a good idea. Who wants to Make one and put it up or make it available? I've never done or "learned" Short 4 although I've seen it and had it explained to me. The first time I saw it was at the Internationals in 1997. I think that guy won a trophy with it in my division.


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 26, 2004)

From a historical stand point I think it would good to learn. Also, as Doug relayed the story of winning at a tournament then it might also be useful there.


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## ArnoldLee (Aug 26, 2004)

XtremeJ_AKKI said:
			
		

> *Where can I find a video ( especially instructional ) of this form? *



Oh brother, you guys are going to make me dig through all my old videos to find this thing aren't you?

I believe Kenpojoe has the video in question also.  It's from a 1980 ish IKKA instructors camp and is taught quite clearly.

Cheers


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 26, 2004)

ArnoldLee said:
			
		

> Oh brother, you guys are going to make me dig through all my old videos to find this thing aren't you?


  Only if you want to.......LOL



 I have it ...... but I'm not into giving the farm away.....LOL )  except to my personal students of course.... but then again.... they have to help me plow the fields also... hee hee

  :asian:


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## cdhall (Aug 26, 2004)

ArnoldLee said:
			
		

> Oh brother, you guys are going to make me dig through all my old videos to find this thing aren't you?


Yes, if possible.
:uhyeah:


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 27, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> I have it ...... but I'm not into giving the farm away.....LOL )  except to my personal students of course.... but then again.... they have to help me plow the fields also... hee hee


So are you saying you're getting out your moldy archieves?  
Wait 'til you've seen an amishman plow a field with a team of horses. Only in ohio. :ultracool


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 27, 2004)

ArnoldLee said:
			
		

> I believe Kenpojoe has the video in question also.  It's from a 1980 ish IKKA instructors camp and is taught quite clearly.


Whoever had it on e-bay that last time I seen it the video went for 60 - 70bucks. I don't know who had it listed but it did say Mr. Parker was videotaped doing the form then breaking the form down as if he were teaching a class.


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## Blindside (Aug 28, 2004)

Our school has this form, it is an optional one for black belts to learn, we picked it up from Mr. (Dale) Petit.  I have also competed against Mr. (Jerald) Mitchell (Jim Mitchell's son) who uses it in competition.

It is a very good tournament form, all of the flow of Long 4 and doesn't face Long 4's problem of turning your back on the judges for a third of the form.

Lamont


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## MisterMike (Aug 28, 2004)

I once heard a story....

That Mr. Parker thought someone was reading his notes without permission. So he wrote short 4 and tossed it in the trash. Later, when he saw the form displayed, he became aware of who was being naughty.

For what it's worth...


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 28, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> I once heard a story....
> 
> That Mr. Parker thought someone was reading his notes without permission. So he wrote short 4 and tossed it in the trash. Later, when he saw the form displayed, he became aware of who was being naughty.
> 
> For what it's worth...


 I think that is just what you said it was...... a story.

 :supcool:


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## MisterMike (Aug 28, 2004)

Yea, it was written by Anonymous, not Unknown.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 28, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Yea, it was written by Anonymous, not Unknown.


 :uhyeah:


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## KenpoNoChikara (Sep 10, 2004)

Short 4, huh? Haven't heard of it, but sounds interesting....


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## cdhall (Sep 29, 2004)

Any comments on how accurate this list is. I noticed it in my notebook recently. I printed this out a few years ago but I have no use for it at present.

http://www.pcwood.com/kenpo/forms/short4notes.html


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## KenpoNoChikara (Sep 29, 2004)

Oooohhhhh......must....print.....list....

Seriously, though I don't think anyone at my dojo has done a short 4, but I'd really like to learn it... Time to start practicing
If anyone has any pointers for an inexperienced ma (aka:me) on this, please share, I could use all the help i can get 

Respectfully, kenponochikara


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## cdhall (Sep 29, 2004)

Spoon!
 :ultracool


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 29, 2004)

KenpoNoChikara said:
			
		

> Oooohhhhh......must....print.....list....


Sitting here trying to think of this visually it seems pretty tough without an instructor stepping you through the form. If that is in fact the correct directions on how the form works the transitions seem a bit tough. At least that's my opinion. :asian:


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## ikenpo (Sep 29, 2004)

I've seen a version where it was done entirely on the right side only....

jb


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 30, 2004)

jbkenpo said:
			
		

> I've seen a version where it was done entirely on the right side only...


Should I dare even ask if they practiced the form on the opposite side? :idunno:


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## Goldendragon7 (Sep 30, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Should I dare even ask if they practiced the form on the opposite side? :idunno:


 Well, if you are one of my students...... you would know what the answer is for my requirements.
 :ultracool


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 30, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Well, if you are one of my students...... you would know what the answer is for my requirements.


 :uhyeah:  I already know the answer.

I thought I was going to begin to see WWIII


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## kenpo3631 (Sep 30, 2004)

Why, why, why, would you practice Short Form Four on the left side? If you are going to do that, why don't you just practice Long Form Four and do both sides in the same form. Hey that's in a way like economy of motion


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 4, 2004)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> Why, why, why, would you practice Short Form Four on the left side? If you are going to do that, why don't you just practice Long Form Four and do both sides in the same form. Hey that's in a way like economy of motion


 I am curious if you feel this way about short form 3 as well?

 :idunno:


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## bzarnett (Oct 4, 2004)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> Why, why, why, would you practice Short Form Four on the left side? If you are going to do that, why don't you just practice Long Form Four and do both sides in the same form. Hey that's in a way like economy of motion


So what is your definition of economy of motion then?:idunno:


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 5, 2004)

The way I understand the forms is that they build upon each other. 1's & 2's are Basic & Excercise Forms and the 3's 4, 5, & 6 are like Encyclopedia Forms, highlighting certain aspects I.e. Long 5 shows you takedowns. 
If you do Long Form 4 then don't you do both sides of the form? and wouldn't the same go for Long Form 3 and so on? 
My point is this, what new ideas or motion are you learning by doing Short Form Four? Better yet if the forms build on one another then why didn't Mr. Parker include it in the syllabus of Kenpo and why is it being taught after Long Four as it is so customarily taught?


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 5, 2004)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> My point is this, what new ideas or motion are you learning by doing Short Form Four?


 You still didn't answer my question earlier on short 3, isn't that the same as doing short form 4?  What are you learning by doing short Form 3 only on one side?



			
				kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> Better yet if the forms build on one another then why didn't Mr. Parker include it in the syllabus of Kenpo and why is it being taught after Long Four as it is so customarily taught?


 In the same vain.... why did Mr. Parker only teach one side of Short From # 3 then?   

 If it has no merit as you suggest.... then why did Mr. Parker teach short form 4 to anyone..... after all it was he himself that brought it up and revealed it in the first place.

 :asian:


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 5, 2004)

> You still didn't answer my question earlier on short 3, isn't that the same as doing short form 4? What are you learning by doing short Form 3 only on one side?



Oh mighty Goldendragon...did you not read my post? All I want to know is what if anything new would you gain from doing short form four on the left side besides ambideterity? Did you not learn what  Long Form Four had to teach while learning it, what other info can an abbreviated version of this form teach?  I also posted that the forms build upon each other. If this is true, why did EPK Sr. not teach it before Long Four? Mr. Parker was very methodical as you well know and for him to do this just seems too far out of character for him don't you think?  The "commercial" art was devised to follow a regimented pattern for the students to follow, to teach Short Four after Long Four is not logical or sequential. As an aside - I have also heard of people asking him about why there was no short four or five and that he created them later to quell the masses so to speak. As far as short three on the left don't you pick up the left side of the motion when you do Long Form 3?


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 6, 2004)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> Oh mighty Goldendragon...did you not read my post?


 Well, I don't know about the "Oh Mighty" business, but yes I  did read your post but am not a code talker.  



			
				kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> All I want to know is what if anything  new would you gain from doing short form four on the left side besides  ambideterity?


 Do you mean  "*ambidexterity*"?    I can't answer you on that one.... I don't know what you know or don't know or  if you would gain anything from it.:idunno:



			
				kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> Did you not learn what Long Form  Four had to teach while learning it, what other info can an abbreviated version  of this form teach?


 Geeze, now that you ask me that, I'm not  sure I did learn all of what it had to teach, I would however, look forward to  you someday sharing what you learned so I can compare notes.



			
				kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> I also posted that the forms build  upon each other.


 I would agree with  that.



			
				kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> If the forms do build upon each other, why did  EPK Sr. not teach it before Long Four?


 It is taught as an  "option" not a mandatory part of the normal syllabus or curriculums from my  recollection.



			
				kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> Mr. Parker was very methodical as you  well know and for him to do this just seems too far out of character for him  don't you think?


 Well thank you Lance, yes I did know him  quite well, (still wish I would have had even more time with him),  and no it  was not out of character.... he made updates or changes all the time when he  found value in something that might help someone in HIS  system.



			
				kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> The "commercial" art was devised to follow a  regimented pattern for the students to follow, to teach Short Four after Long  Four is not logical or sequential.


 If you say so...... maybe  he just screwed up or something and forgot to call you and ask ~ after all Ed  Parker was the one that revealed it in the first place at the time and place of  HIS choosing..... I never try to second guess him  myself.



			
				kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> I have heard of people asking him about why  there was no short four or five and that he created them later to quell the  masses so to speak.


 Well then, there ya go.  You have the  answer.



			
				kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> As far as short three on the left don't you  pick up the left side of the motion when you do Long Form  3?


 Do you?  Hmmmmmm, seems to me only "some" of the  movements/techniques are done on the left but not ALL in Long Form 3, but then I  would like you to share with me your views and understandings on this.  I would  be interested.

 :ultracool


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## parkerkarate (Oct 6, 2004)

I think short form three is just the easy way of getting people ready for the harder forms with techniques such as Long Form 5 and 6.


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 8, 2004)

Wow! Please pass the tums, me thinks there was too much sarcasm on this plate.

GD take it easy big fella. The premise of my post was to raise the question as to why Short Form Four is even practiced. I will never claim to know it all about anything in Kenpo however I feel some valid questions are raised.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by kenpo3631
> Did you not learn what Long Form Four had to teach while learning it, what other info can an abbreviated version of this form teach?
> 
> Geeze, now that you ask me that, I'm not sure I did learn all of what it had to teach, I would however, look forward to you someday sharing what you learned so I can compare notes


.

I am far from learning everything there is to know about Long Four too and would love to see your notes on the form, I am sure I would learn more about it. My point in my state ment stands as is ~ What will an abbreviated version of the form that you already know teach you as far as theories, principles, movement, timing, etc.?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by kenpo3631
> If the forms do build upon each other, why did EPK Sr. not teach it before Long Four?
> 
> It is taught as an "option" not a mandatory part of the normal syllabus or curriculums from my recollection.



"Option" for what :idunno: For doing Long Four? I don't understand the option thing except as in the case of using it as a tounament form instead of Long Four where your back will be turned to the judges for half of the form, especially when those who had no knowledge of the Parker Kenpo forms were judging you. So, GD what option?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by kenpo3631
> Mr. Parker was very methodical as you well know and for him to do this just seems too far out of character for him don't you think?
> 
> ...



Yes, no doubt I am sure he did make updates and changes all the time, I remember having to explain why structures where changing to the under belts while I was teaching for my original instructor in the late 80's & early 90's. What other values are there to Short Form Four other than it being somewhat easier to learn than Long Four? Besides that, didn't the premiere of Short Form Four come out long after Long Form Four was already established and set as the "standard" form for whatever belt level it was required for at the time?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by kenpo3631
> The "commercial" art was devised to follow a regimented pattern for the students to follow, to teach Short Four after Long Four is not logical or sequential.
> 
> ...



It's not what *I* say sir. I know from talking to his students that yes Mr. Parker sometimes did things out of the ordinary but to say that the "commercialized" version of Ed Parker's Kenpo System, as it is referred to sometimes, is NOT regimented. That there is no structured pattern for students to follow as a guide? Heck it has a syllabus! You stated yourself that the form was an "optional" form and we all know Mr. Parker premeired Short Four long after Long Form Four was the "standard". The question is why did he do it? Also sir, if you never questioned his reasoning sir, then shame on you. Isn't that what he wanted, to have us be independent thinkers and ask "why"?

Mr. Conatser do not be offended by what I am asking, I am just putting forth my objective opinion for discussion. :asian:


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## Michael Billings (Oct 8, 2004)

Your question may need to go on hold for a few more days.  GoldenDragon7 will not be back on MartialTalk for another few days.

 -Michael


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 8, 2004)

Thank you Mr. Billings. What happened to the big guy anyway? :idunno:


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## Michael Billings (Oct 8, 2004)

He has a brief suspension.  Any more you should ask him.

 -Michael


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 15, 2004)




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## Blindside (Oct 15, 2004)

> Any comments on how accurate this list is. I noticed it in my notebook recently. I printed this out a few years ago but I have no use for it at present.



It looks pretty close to ours, I think our Dance of Darkness is right, but the rest looks about the same.

Lamont


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## kenpo3631 (Nov 9, 2004)

:idunno:


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## vantelimus (Nov 25, 2004)

In 1989 or 1990, one of my instructors asked Mr. Parker why there was no Short Form 4. Mr. Parker told him "There is, you just haven't invented it yet. It is every technique from Long Form 4 done on every other side." Armed with that knowledge, that instructor and I created a short form 4. I say "a short form 4" instead of "the short form 4" because we had no information about angles. At that time, there was no one doing hort 4 in competition in the area (Southern California). That instructor added short form 4 to the katas he taught and people from his studio started performing it competition. He still teaches the kata he and I invented.

I asked my currect instructor, Frank Trejo, about short form 4 a couple of days ago. He said "It is was created by one of Barbara Hale's students as their thesis form. It is every technique done on every other side. It is a concept. You can make up a short 5 and short 6 using the same idea."

So that is the story from Mr. Parker indirectly and from Mr. Trejo.

peace,
vantelimus


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## Journey (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi all, I'm new, so go easy.

Short Form 4, As I understand it, Short Form 4,5,6 was the 5th Degree Black Belt Thesis of Jim Mitchell in the early 80's. I was told S.G.M. Parker liked it and added it to the system, but it never really became mainstream. That's not to say that it couln't have been done by someone else before or after that time.


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## Journey (Nov 28, 2004)

RE: Short Form 4

Short Form Three and Long Form Three have diferent techniques so practicing Short 3 on both sides would seem appropriate.

As far as Short Form 4 on both sides. We'll lets analyze. In Long Form 4 the transition between the techniques is only done on one side. You do the technique on the Right, then Left, then transition to the next technique, doing it on the right side. When you do Short Form 4 on the Right side the techniques are done with the transitions on the other side, opposite Long Four, To do Short Four on the L it would duplicate the transitions in Long Four. But that doesn't mean there isn't anything to learn from doing it on the Left side. 

Becides it makes a good tournament form, and it makes Long 4 easy to learn, you already know half of Long 4 and you know the order it goes in.


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## jfarnsworth (Apr 14, 2007)

Going to give this one a bump to see if there's any new information to be added to this form.


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## IWishToLearn (Apr 14, 2007)

XtremeJ_AKKI said:


> *Where can I find a video ( especially instructional ) of this form? *



*Loudspeaker*
Paging Dr. James, paging Dr. James!

We need video to the web, stat! 

*/loudspeaker*


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## teej (Apr 14, 2007)

9th degree Lee Wedlake's newest book K401 is out and can be ordered. I have one infront of me as I type. 

This book is an indepth examination on Kenpo form 4. 

Go to www.leewedlake.com for ordering info.

Yours in Kenpo, Teej


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## jfarnsworth (Apr 14, 2007)

The 401 book is really good. To say the least. 

It would be nice though for an actual written description of the form. Besides the attacks like the link shows. That plus the video as someone suggested. 



Where's hawk man? With his extensive collection he probably has one. Also, I remember seeing someone selling a video tape on e-bay that "supposedly" said on that video; Mr. Parker himself performed short 4 plus taught it. That's been quite a while and my memory isn't as good as it used to be.


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## KenpoDave (Apr 15, 2007)

Seems to me that if you are truly interested in studying Short 4, then you should apply the logic and make it up yourself.  If you know Long 4, you really shouldn't need a video of someone else doing Short 4...


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## IWishToLearn (Apr 16, 2007)

I don't study EPAK, otherwise I'd try to do just that.


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## jfarnsworth (Apr 16, 2007)

KenpoDave said:


> Seems to me that if you are truly interested in studying Short 4, then you should apply the logic and make it up yourself. If you know Long 4, you really shouldn't need a video of someone else doing Short 4...


As that is true... The transitions between techniques and more what i was interested in. Yeah, I could put it together and I did play with it on sunday. There were 2 techniques that warranted more indepth study. My idea was to see how someone else did it.


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## amylong (Apr 20, 2007)

jfarnsworth said:


> It would be nice though for an actual written description of the form. Besides the attacks like the link shows. That plus the video as someone suggested.



Mr. Wedlake says that it's just like long four, but that you alternate from right to left of each technique.

I asked him if he had a written version of it and his response was what I wrote above.  I think he managed to control himself before writing 'duh' at the end.  lol.

Jason -- I'm sure you can figure it out.


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## jfarnsworth (Apr 22, 2007)

I think I might be competent enough to figure it out.


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## teej (Apr 23, 2007)

In each technique of form 4 the last move of each technique leads right into the 1st move of the following technique. [Jason, this may be the transitions you have questions of].To keep the forms teaching correct, this principle would need to be carried into anyway you practice it. 

Teej


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