# To defend myself, do I need to carry a weapon?



## wushuguy (Jan 19, 2012)

This is an excerpt from a post in my blog:


> There are many various ideas out there, each with their own merit and reasoning.There are some instructors that push to carry a knife for self-defense. That the knife is the great equalizer, as its sharp blade skillfully applied will render strength and physical size of an aggressor to be of minimal consequence. Other instructors push that one should carry pepper spray, as pepper spray properly used can incapacitate most aggressors quickly and without the dangers or consequences of a knife. And so on.
> ...
> In the end if you carry something, how quickly and efficiently have you practiced to deploy it under duress? Are your empty hand skills sufficient to end an assault? Do you live in an area that is more dangerous and carrying a tool would be useful? Or do you live in a relatively safe area where having such a tool will bring the wrong attention?



Read the full of the article on my blog.
Also, constructive comments to help me improve writing is always appreciated.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 19, 2012)

The problem with weapons is not only whether or not a person is sufficiently trained to use them, but also if carrying weapons will lead to automatic escalation of violence. If you carry a knife are you going to pull it before it's necessary and make things worse? 

I used to carry a knife and even thought about purchasing a firearm if Illinois gets a concealed carry law, but I've decided against it for now as I've thought that it might encourage me to "try my luck" in a situation I should just escape from, or if i'm in some sort of scuffle where i shouldn't use it someone might reach for those weapons if they see them on my person and now things are worse for me.
I carry a kubaton on my key chain. It gives extra oomph if i need to strike someone. I don't have to worry about going to prison for stabbing or shooting someone now.

After all self-defense needs to include not only the physical training of martial skills, but also how to avoid the situation entirely and how to deal with legal issues that could occur if you did hurt someone.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 19, 2012)

Before committing to carry a concealed weapon, one must also have made the decision that if necessary, one will kill in self-defense.  I don't say that lightly; many may say they are prepared to do so, but in the moment, they may find they cannot.  A deadly weapon, once deployed, may inflict deadly wounds whether or not the person using it intends to kill in self-defense.  That's a moral decision that the person needs to be very certain of, before making the decision to carry, IMHO.  If you can't kill, that is not a bad thing, but it does mean you should probably not be carrying a weapon which could kill without your intention.

One must also be proficient, considering the number of people killed with their own weapons after being disarmed.  No knife or gun is a magic wand; you don't wave it around and things get better.  From my point of view, if I were to draw a concealed pistol, for example, it means that someone is about to die.  Not a 'threat'.  I mean for real.  Hopefully not me, but if my weapon clears leather, the next sound will be BANG.  No waving it around, no threatening to shoot, no warning shots.  Draw, aim, fire.  If there is not sufficient cause for me to do that, then I go to prison.  If I get the weapon taken from me, I may die and innocent people in the area may die because of me.

Being trained in empty-handed self-defense hopefully gives one a level of capability that does not have to include deadly force (although it may).  Concealed weapons such as knives and guns are inherently deadly; it is often only by chance that they do not kill when employed in self-defense.

In other words, once the weapon is in your hands, everything changes, even if you don't end up using it.  It was perhaps life-and-death; but now there is no doubt about it.  You're on a new level now.  Someone is about to die.

Not directed at you, but anyone who thinks they can shoot to wound, or cut someone intentionally in a way that doesn't kill them, is being very foolish.  Deadly weapons are deadly.  That's their purpose.  If you use them, prepare to kill or be killed.


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## Big Don (Jan 19, 2012)

The more skilled I have become in various ways, the more I am convinced that the most important factor in any situation is luck.


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## Big Don (Jan 19, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Not directed at you, but anyone who thinks they can shoot to wound, or cut someone intentionally in a way that doesn't kill them, is being very foolish.  Deadly weapons are deadly.  That's their purpose.  If you use them, prepare to kill or be killed.


It is also useful to note that should you be forced to use a deadly weapon, you can count on many fun-filled hours spent with law enforcement.


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## wushuguy (Jan 19, 2012)

> If you can't kill, that is not a bad thing, but it does mean you should probably not be carrying a weapon which could kill without your intention.



Exactly. A lot of people carry some toy or trinket to feel better, others with a bit of training will carry. I used to often carry a pocket knife because I had use of it for work, but also for self-defense. However the more I thought about it, although knowing somewhat how to use it, the consequences of it was more than I want to deal with. So my option ended up being a mini flashlight which is useful in dark areas. too small to use as impact weapon, but can use to give me a little extra firm punch.

Thanks for all the insight.


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## MJS (Jan 19, 2012)

wushuguy said:


> This is an excerpt from a post in my blog:
> 
> 
> Read the full of the article on my blog.
> Also, constructive comments to help me improve writing is always appreciated.



Nice article!  I agree with what you said.  I've said similar things....in that people often carry a weapon and think that just because they're carrying something, they're already a step ahead.  Well, sure, to a point, but...as you said, that weapon needs to be easily deployed, and the person using it, needs to know what they're doing.  

I've had debates with fellow Kenpoists and weapons use.  Their take is that you can simply pick up the weapon, and using the Kenpo concepts, be adept with the weapon.  I disagree with that, because IMO, while it is possible to do that, that will be the extent of your knowledge.  Unless you're spending the time to learn the ins and outs of a weapon, why bother carrying it?


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 19, 2012)

I think Bill said what most needs to be known.  Nothing more, and more importantly, nothing less.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 19, 2012)

This is not a matter of what is best, like Youre putting it. Theres no statistic thats going to make You better at using a Knife in SD than Your Hands. Your Hands ARE enough, more than enough, if You are fitted to use them.
Some People just arent able to flourish with Unarmed Combat. Some People just arent able to flourish with Knife, Stick, or Firearm Combat, where others exceed at it.
Really, its Personal Preference. If YOU feel that YOU are more comfortable using a Weapon, use one. But if Youre more comfortable Unarmed, or if Your Reflexes are to attack Unarmed, Arming Yourself is counterproductive to Self Defense, and will more than likely get You hurt, or put You at a disadvantage.

Do what comes naturally to You.


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## WingChunIan (Jan 23, 2012)

The big issue with carrying a concealed weapon is knowing when to use it. Having a leathal weapon in your back pocket is no use if it stays there but equally you can look forward to a long time behind bars if you cause serious injury or death to an aggressor who is simply mouthing off and posturing. Unfortunately most people who carry weapons with a mindset to use them become reliant upon them and often become somewhat trigger happy. Not a path that I would advise any of my students to go down (especially given the aftermath that most people with a moral compass experience after having hurt someone even with justification). Improvised weapons on the other hand such as keys, sticks , bottles etc are a different matter and one of the first things I teach students is to be aware of their environment.


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## billc (Jan 23, 2012)

I have to say I disagree with this small part of your post:



> Unfortunately most people who carry weapons with a mindset to use them  become reliant upon them and often become somewhat trigger happy.



I think the trigger happy myth comes more from the media than actual experience.  The better trained you are with a weapon, the less "trigger happy" you become.  I remember a video by shooting expert and legend Jeff Cooper  where he recounted the story of a student of his shooting school.  The man owned a small convenience store and after he had gone to the shooting school, his store was robbed.  He deployed his pistol, and did not fire, but held the suspects till the police arrived.  Cooper related that on questioning the student as to why he didn't shoot the suspects, which in the situation he had justification, the student responded, " I didn't feel I needed to, I was in control of the situation and from that control, there was no pressure to shoot."  So, I think that training makes it less likely, in most cases, not all, that someone will react improperly with a weapon.    Trigger Happy is something that comes up more with untrained individuals.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 23, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> The big issue with carrying a concealed weapon is knowing when to use it. Having a leathal weapon in your back pocket is no use if it stays there but equally you can look forward to a long time behind bars if you cause serious injury or death to an aggressor who is simply mouthing off and posturing. Unfortunately most people who carry weapons with a mindset to use them become reliant upon them and often become somewhat trigger happy. Not a path that I would advise any of my students to go down (especially given the aftermath that most people with a moral compass experience after having hurt someone even with justification). Improvised weapons on the other hand such as keys, sticks , bottles etc are a different matter and one of the first things I teach students is to be aware of their environment.


I believe there is a bigger risk.
Someone attacks You.
Somehow You find a chance to produce Your Knife.
Now, for HIM, its Survival. And that means, it isnt Hurting You any more. Its Killing You. To Defend Himself. Youre making HIM Defend HIMSELF. Mindset wise anyway. And that can be more dangerous than just prevailing in Unarmed Combat.


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## kbarrett (Jan 23, 2012)

I agree with much already posted, I would add this everything around you can become a weapon when needed, so do you have to carry a weapon no, but having knowledge on how to use weapons will help in time of defense becuase, you'll know to grab what's ever available and use it as a weapon. Ken


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## Blindside (Jan 23, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> The big issue with carrying a concealed weapon is knowing when to use it. Having a leathal weapon in your back pocket is no use if it stays there but equally you can look forward to a long time behind bars if you cause serious injury or death to an aggressor who is simply mouthing off and posturing. Unfortunately most people who carry weapons with a mindset to use them become reliant upon them and often become somewhat trigger happy.



I think it is the opposite, knowing that I am carrying *something* makes me less likely to escalate something stupid because I know just how bad it can go even if the other guy does not.  What is your experience wtih people carrying weapons being "trigger happy?"


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 23, 2012)

Blindside said:


> I think it is the opposite, knowing that I am carrying *something* makes me less likely to escalate something stupid because I know just how bad it can go even if the other guy does not.  What is your experience wtih people carrying weapons being "trigger happy?"



I agree with you.  In fact, there is also the ever-present fear that if you do have to draw your weapon, or if you are surprised an unable to do so, your weapon may be found or taken from you and used to kill you.  No one can kill me with my own weapon if I'm not carrying one.

I suspect many people think citizens who carry concealed get a 'big man' syndrome not unlike a jerk with a gigantic SUV who drives like he owns the road.  I've never seen it to be the case.  It is generally, in my experience, the more mature and adult members of society who take the time and effort to seek a concealed weapons permit in the first place.

And regardless of whether one wants to believe _"more guns, less crime,"_ it is now absolutely true that more guns does not, under and circumstances, end in more crime.  The 'blood in the streets' solemnly predicted by anti-gun people has never happened.  The sky, it seems, did not fall.


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## Buka (Jan 23, 2012)

Do you NEED to carry a weapon?

No.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 23, 2012)

Blindside said:


> I think it is the opposite, knowing that I am carrying *something* makes me less likely to escalate something stupid because I know just how bad it can go even if the other guy does not."



I see both sides of this. If you are a person with any sort of compassion and sense you will probably not escalate the situation but I've known enough people in my life who lack common sense to know that there are some individuals who would very quickly weild a weapon for intimidation as opposed to using it when only necessary.  I've had a client who was shot because he brandished a knife on someone who was beating up his sister. If he was going to use it he should have used it, not just brought it out to scare the other guy.


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## wushuguy (Jan 23, 2012)

Right, that's why I feel there's no "catch all" answer to the question, but one must find his own answer by research and training. With training, common sense, and if one has the will to use it or not. As said in other posts as well, if a weapon is brought into play, the dynamics change, the agressor can suddenly become a defender, instincts change, and if one pulls out a knife just to intimidate and without training, that's recipe for disaster.

So carry a weapon or not is really preference, however I believe that people in all martial arts should at least touch on or practice the subject a bit more, as from what I have heard it's more common nowadays that violent conflict when it happens, often involves some kind of weapon, improvised or otherwise. While FMA boasts this as one main aspect, and other arts might delve into it more than others (I've heard hapkido, hwarangdo, and kenpo get into weapon defense a lot) I know other arts as well touch on the subject (Karate, TKD, etc.), but perhaps many instructors don't go into enough detail or maybe weren't taught in detail originally....

How do you guys think about it? Do you need to train or practice against or with modern sized knives, or are traditional empty-hand techniques enough?



Himura Kenshin said:


> I see both sides of this. If you are a person with any sort of compassion and sense you will probably not escalate the situation but I've known enough people in my life who lack common sense to know that there are some individuals who would very quickly weild a weapon for intimidation as opposed to using it when only necessary.  I've had a client who was shot because he brandished a knife on someone who was beating up his sister. If he was going to use it he should have used it, not just brought it out to scare the other guy.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 23, 2012)

If you intend any kind of realistic self-defense training you MUST incorporated edged weapons, blunt weapons, and fire arms of different sizes and makes. You must not only practice defense against such weapons but also how to attack with them. How can someone possibly be expected to know what is going through a knife weilder or gun weilder if they have never picked up and trained with the weapon themselves.

It's important to get into the mind set of the enemy you are training to encounter and one should ask himself "If I were the guy with the knife what would I do with it knowing what I know from my training? If i had no training what might I do with it?" Too often I see clips of someone defending against a knife attack that is one large lunging thrust or a wide WIDE swing. That's not realistic, it may be a good place to start as a beginner but one has to practice knife defense against realistic knife attacks like someone trying to shank you. Gun defense is the same, no idiot is going to stand perfectly still and point a gun at you. If they are that close they are probably also grabbing you and moving you to a secondary location. 

If you were a psycho and you had a weapon what would you do if you wanted to take someone's money, life, or dignity? That's how weapon defense training should be run.


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## thegatekeeper (Jan 24, 2012)

I wouldn't carry a weapon myself unless I knew there was going to be grave danger, but I can see how one can help....


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 24, 2012)

I would really hate to be in a situation where someone attacks myself or a loved one and they had a weapon capable of lethal force and I did not.  That would really stink!


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## billc (Jan 24, 2012)

Keep in mind, most criminals will not train to use their weapon, and yet they can and will be able to kill you.  Go through your local news programs and stories and you will see a lot of people killing people with knives and guns who never trained a day in their lives.  In chicago, a young teenager killed his brother with a knife over a pair of tennis shoes.  No training involved.  John Cass of the sun times reported a story of a man at a movie theater who stood up to ask a couple of teenagers to quiet down.  One of the teens stood up and stabbed him in the neck with a turkey thermometer.  Another kid, I don't know exactly how old he was, killed his police officer Aunt with a knife, again, no training.  Training with a weapon is essential to any serious self-defense training.  The bad people out there will use weapons, without hours of training with them, and they will maim or kill you with them.  Empty hand training alone doesn't really give you all the info. you need to deal with a weapon, be it knife, stick or gun.  Try to learn something about using all of them, take shooting classes, take an FMA class, and try to get that experience if you are studying for primarily self-defense reasons.  That is my two cents worth of perspective.

Training with and carrying a weapon, knife or gun, is a definite advantage in a self-defense situation.  I have told this story on other posts but one of my DTS class mates disuaded 4 unarmed thugs from attacking him simply because they saw he had a small folding knife ready, and he had the body language that told them he would and could use it if they attacked him.  They left him alone and no one was injured because of that weapon and his training.


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## Carol (Jan 24, 2012)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would really hate to be in a situation where someone attacks myself or a loved one and they had a weapon capable of lethal force and I did not.  That would really stink!



What would also stink would be if you had to defend yourself and were partly (or fully) incapacitated at the time.  That incapacitation could come from severe exhaustion (a day hiking in the mountains, running a marathon, etc), it could be from injury (back spasms, broken bones), disability, etc.   Its also not impossible for an attacker to be a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier than I am.

Do I personally NEED a weapon to defend myself?   In certain circumstances, absolutely....although make no mistake, I continue to try like hell to avoid being in such a circumstance.  I have been successful so far, I hope that record continues.


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## billc (Jan 24, 2012)

Last week I had acute Achilles Tendonitis, it felt like a nail was being driven into the back of my heel, and I'll tell you, that would have really limited certain aspects of self-defense for me.  I had a severe limp for a couple of days.  Carol is right in what she points out.  Imagine you have a broken arm or leg, and then you have to face multiple unarmed attackers or one armed attacker.  A weapon in your trained hands changes the equation.

The funny thing is, violent criminals have no doubt that a weapon is a great thing to have to maim or kill their victims.  It is only the good guys who second guess that question.


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## Jenna (Jan 24, 2012)

wushuguy said:


> This is an excerpt from a post in my blog:
> 
> 
> Read the full of the article on my blog.
> Also, constructive comments to help me improve writing is always appreciated.


Undoubtedly a weapon can, under fortuitous circumstances, become an advantage and but to the question of "needing" a weapon in order to defend oneself, I think the answer is negative.  

It is entirely possible to defend oneself with no weapon.  Otherwise, if we are caught weaponless for whatever reason, what are we to do?  Lie down and take our punishment?

The ability to defend empty handed is fortunate as there will certainly be times when we cannot deploy our weapon fast enough to avoid harm to ourselves.  Further, there may be times when we do not have our weapon on  our person.  Even if we are able to put our hand to something of a weapon it may not be a weapon we have any experience of using whereas if we are fortunate enough to remain intact throughout our lives, we should always have at least one limb well trained and well-primed for immediate deployment.

I think it is an important point that those practicing arts that train mostly weapons techniques know how to utilise their art in an empty-handed situation. Likewise, those practicing weaponless arts I think have a duty to theirselves to appreciate the handling of and defence of weapons.

Your blog writing is perfectly fine and in need of no criticism though I would say to get search engine traffic for your blog it needs to be packed with your keywords yes?  Put in a nice photo of you too, or at least a picture of your weapon of choice to break up the text  I wish you the best.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 24, 2012)

thegatekeeper said:


> I wouldn't carry a weapon myself unless I knew there was going to be grave danger, but I can see how one can help....



How are you going to know ahead of time there will be danger.  If you already know then don't go.  Point is you never know and must always be ready.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 24, 2012)

Do you NEED a weapon?  Well simple answer is not until you need it and when that time comes you better have it or your in trouble.  I carry a firearm everywhere I go.  The only time its not on my body is the gym or the Dojo but its close by and I know were it is.  Everywhere else its on me church, dinner with family,  during the day sitting around my house.  I don't want to be the guy tied up and watch evil men do things to my wife and kids.  But you also need to be smart enough to know when to use and and when to just run.  If it comes out be ready to use it its not there for show.


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## SavageMan (Jan 30, 2012)

I viewed this post a couple days ago. Let me first say thank you to Mr. Mattocks. That should be posted on every weapons forum here, and read aloud at every conceal and carry course. I also agree with a lot of Billcihak's view points. IMO the area you are from and circumstances you may have encountered throughout life are the biggest determining factors for this question. For example. Someone who grew up in East Liberty's Pittsburgh district that hear gunfire and see gang violence may think that carrying a firearm while your out is for gangsters. But may be ok with it for home defense. Someone who has never been exposed to any of that might think it's all a bit much. Most Europeans think it dreadful that a common citizen would carry a handgun. Americans consider it a right. I used to think carry a gun would only bring you trouble. Then I became a LEO. WOW did my views change. When you work with dirt bags on a daily basis. You can spot a dirt bag fairly easily, even when they try to hide it. You notice more. And you no what I've noticed. The world has changed. There is no sense of consequence for the bad guys anymore. So their a lot more likely to do something extreme. And by the way as a Correctional Officer I listen to inmate calls. You think the bad guys don't train. Think again. Every little Danny Dirt bag out there is Boxing, Kickboxing, Brazilian JJ, Escrima, you name it. Martial arts is the name of the game these days. So when your approached by the street punk and think that all that training in the dojo is going to pay off. Guess what, he might know enough to catch you off guard or even to counter what you think is you best stuff. For me I'll take no chances. I'll be judged by twelve before I'm carried by six. My Para Ordnance P-10 45 ACP will make sure of that. And you can bet you a$$ I train for it to. Rest in Peace Mr. Heston. But to quote former Marine and Outdoor journalist David Petzel that's just the opinion from "One of those boys from West By God Virginia!" :shooter:


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## Monroe (Feb 1, 2012)

I don't think I have to carry a weapon to defend myself. I carry pepper spray and I'm learning SD, that's more than most people around here. Toronto had 46 homicides in 2011 and 60 in 2010. It's safer than most cities of the same size.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 2, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Not directed at you, but anyone who thinks they can shoot to wound, or cut someone intentionally in a way that doesn't kill them, is being very foolish.  Deadly weapons are deadly.  That's their purpose.  If you use them, prepare to kill or be killed.



Bill made an excellent post.  I wanted to touch base on this point as it is important.  Be very clear about the use-of-force and use-of-deadly-force statutes in your State.  In most that I'm aware of, firing warning shots or shooting with the intention of wounding is against the law.  The reason is that you require a clear field of fire and are responsible for each and every shot.  Hitting a moving target well, under duress is difficult in real life.  This is why combat shooting aims for COM (center of mass) which is the largest part of a person.  Trying to shoot someone in the leg to make them fall down is pure Hollywood and likely to land you in legal trouble.  They often don't fall down and are usually capable of carrying out whatever threat of aggression caused you to shoot them in the first place.

In regards to a knife, a secondary consideration is its use as a rescue tool i.e. cutting a seat belt if you come upon an auto accident or some other type of rescue situation that requires a sharp edged tool.  Just a point to toss out for consideration.


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## mook jong man (Feb 2, 2012)

Your own body is really your best weapon , it is always there and ready to go.

But if you do carry a weapon make sure it is always with you and can be rapidly deployed.


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## SavageMan (Feb 2, 2012)

I work in a Maximum security prison. I can tell you first hand unless you have the option to get away. Which most of the time you should. I've never seen were the body is the better weapon than the blade. All that "knife training" is all well and good in theory. wait till it gets put to the test for real. If the guy has made a decision to use it on you, do you really think a couple of quick blocks and parries are going to get him to stop? Not a chance. He is going to come at you like a sewing machine and all the half speed training with the rubber knife or the wooden bokken is out the door. And one more thing. The guys who say the all to classic "If your going to get into a knife fight expect to get cut." For one I doubt have ever been in a knife fight. To have a knife fight both people have to have a knife. Just how often do you think that's going to happen? It should be more like if someone pulls a knife you should try to distance yourself as quickly as possible and draw really fast. The state of West Virginia has a wonderful self defense law that covers you defending not only yourself but also others if you feel harm should come to you or someone else. With that being said as a Federal Officer I'm covered under the Law Enforcement Protection Act, so I can carry anywhere and do. Now do I think that's going to cover me if God forbid I should ever have to pull my weapon. Absolutely not. The media, prosecuting attorneys, and my employers would have a field day. But I'll still be breathing, there's always another job, and some sleazebag attorney waiting in the wings to defend me. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.:soapbox:


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## Monroe (Feb 2, 2012)

The laws are so different here. Technically my pepper spray is illegal (technically, it's dog spray. You can't buy mace in Canada intended for use on people). I shouldn't actually be carrying it ever. I carry it for late night or early morning jogging alone as another SD tool. I can't legally carry a gun or a knife either. I figure I'll get in less trouble for pepper spray than a knife or gun. Other times I'll carry are times I'm out alone when it's dark. It's always in my bag, but it's in hand when I think risks are higher.


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 3, 2012)

Bazooka: never leave home without it.


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## Carol (Feb 3, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Bazooka: never leave home without it.



What was better, the gum or the comics on the label ?


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## Grasshopper-wt (Feb 3, 2012)

Attackers come in many different shapes sizes and skill sets, so the need for a weapon really depends on who is putting up the fight, how many there are, and what there level of skill is. So since you cant predict any of these things at any givin time, yes, it is a pretty good idea to carry a weapon with you. Knife, kubaton, pepper spray, tazer, or even gun, it doesnt matter, as long as you make it home in one piece every night.


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## mook jong man (Feb 3, 2012)

The problem is, are you going to have that weapon on you everywhere and even more importantly can you get it out in time to be of any use.

What about at the beach are you going to be getting about with a knife stashed down your budgie smugglers or a Baretta in your boardies ?
When the time comes you might not have anything except your own body and mind to use , and due to the location , getting distance between you and the attacker maybe problematic.
By all means practice with weapons , I have trained in the Floro fighting system so I am very fond of the knife.
But I think that really the use of improvised weapons is where its at , being able to pick up anything to hand and immediately use it , particularly flexible weapons like belts etc , things that can block a large area.


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## SavageMan (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with MJM on improvising. I was having a conversation with an officer I work with about how inmates make weapons out of anything. He made the comment that he finds himself walking through walmart saying to himself what could I make into a weapon. It sounds bad but its a mind set that comes with the job. Being aware of our surroundings and seeing the wolves from the sheep. Now with that in mind would I ever carry to one of my kids soccer matches? Hell no! Not to say from some parents behavior it wouldn't be justified. Let me go one step further in saying that if I didn't have confidence in my training I would never go to work. I work among the worst and most violent the world has to offer. And with nothing more than a set of keys, a radio, and one set of cuffs. When it goes down we're not armed. They might be. We run head first into the knife fights with nothing more than our training. Which is why I train. But after working as a LEO on the street I would rather carry than not. I believe our greatest weapon is our minds. Mr. Oakley posted a thread where he gave an example of being assaulted by a vagabond very recently. He went on about his business even after being kicked. Smart because he didn't know if the assailant was armed & he was heading the opposite direction away from Mr. Oakley as well as Mr. Oakley had an escape option. But what if he'd pulled a knife or worse a gun? What if Mr. Oakley couldn't have crossed the street so easily to make the distance, or the assailants would have given chase? Thank God that wasn't the case. I think its wrong for anyone to say another person doesn't have the right to carry for self defense if that's what makes them feel safe. We as martial artist train. We have the fight part of the fight or flee relex. And among the wolves and the sheep, we are the german sheperds. Not everybody out there has the potential for physical defense so who is to say they shouldn't have the option for pepper spray, stun gun, knife, or a gun? Whats the old saying? God made man. Smith and Wesson made them equal.


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## billc (Feb 5, 2012)

I have to ask, how many posting here would feel they could be effective with their leg in a cast?  What if you have one or two children with you and there are multiple armed or unarmed attackers?  I enjoy the martial arts, and they have their place in self-defense training but I have to say they cannot compete with the skilled use of firearms.  When I talk to someone who is interested in the arts I ask, as I am sure everyone here does, why they want to take lessons.  If they say self-defense, I ask them if they have a FOID card and have taken shooting lessons.  That is the place to start in my opinion.  Any skill in the empty hand arts take a long time to develop and can only be developed and maintained with constant practice.  How many people with full time jobs and full time families think that they can maintain a realistic skill level that would carry them to assured victory over a professional criminal, someone who has no impulse control, no remorse and no hesitation to maim or kill?  Fire arms are a different animal altogether.  With training, you can become proficient enough to defend yourself, and maintaining that skill is much easier.  Before people say, "You have to train just as hard with a pistol,"  I have to say yes, when you can, but maintaining a mimimum proficiency is much easier.  How many police officers train everyday at the shooting range?  How many soldiers shoot at the range everyday?  Just some thoughts.  I think firearms training needs to be pushed more in the martial arts community.  One day, some armed bystander might save my life.


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## geezer (Feb 5, 2012)

billcihak said:


> I have to ask... What if... there are multiple armed or unarmed attackers?



Hmmm. Multiple armed attackers?
http://www.thebuddhagarden.com/images/statues/hindu/main/kali_mini.jpg

 ...or unarmed attackers?
http://www.hayashi.cz/equipment-eu/big/7705-2.jpg


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## chinto (Feb 5, 2012)

Do you need a weapon for self defense? no, not necessarily. Can a weapon be a good thing to have? yes, and no.  so here it is, if you carry a weapon, and know how to use it, you must first be willing to use it!!! guns for instance are NOT MAGIC WANDS!!!!!!!! they are the equivalent of say a good Dewalt or Porter cable drill, they just make holes at a distance! so if it points it should be shooting, and that means you are trying to take the targets life!  blades are very much in a similar in that deploying a knife is DEADLY FORCE. The same can be said for chokes and strangles and some strikes and techniques that can result in death easily.  ( so if you choke an attacker and his buddy shoots you dead he is justified legally )
   That said, in any fight if you fight you may die!!!  Drunken Idiots with NO TRAINING get sent to prison for manslaughter after killing some one else in a drunken fight every day of the week! best way to win at Self Defense? don't be there when the problem happens, that said, if you are, try and talk your way out, or walk or run away.  ( but this is a judgment call, trying it may make it worse!)  after that do what you have to do with what you have to stay alive and uninjured!!  That may mean that you strike first in some situations.    Either way figure you are going to spend some fun time with cops, and provably lawyers and courts.  Your being armed, or unarmed the charges could be as low as simple mutual combat or mister-meaner assault, all the way up to aggravated murder ( capital offense) or no charges at all because the witnesses all saw you were attacked.  but if some one is injured its going to cost money and lawyers  and court time  with out criminal charges! some one is going to sue you for hurting their poor little boy, or girl regardless of what really happened!


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## chinto (Feb 5, 2012)

geezer said:


> Hmmm. Multiple armed attackers?
> http://www.thebuddhagarden.com/images/statues/hindu/main/kali_mini.jpg
> 
> ...or unarmed attackers?
> http://www.hayashi.cz/equipment-eu/big/7705-2.jpg





In my state multiple attackers are considered a deadly force situation


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## crawleymartialarts (Feb 14, 2012)

Thanks for sharing..


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## crawleymartialarts (Feb 14, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> After all self-defense needs to include not only the physical training of martial skills, but also how to avoid the situation entirely and how to deal with legal issues that could occur if you did hurt someone.



Thanks for this insight. Very true. In some countries it's hard to prove self-defense. If you can avoid it the better.


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## Grasshopper22 (Apr 11, 2012)

It's always good to carry a weapon just in case but if you weren't attacked and the police somehow happened to find out that you were carrying a weapon they could areest you on suspicion of intent to attack or something like that. If you have been doing a self-defence martial art such as Ju-Jitsu or Aikido for years and years then you'll probably know how to deal with most weapon-based attacks but if you're a beginner you may not.


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## Blindside (Apr 11, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> It's always good to carry a weapon just in case but if you weren't attacked and the police somehow happened to find out that you were carrying a weapon they could areest you on suspicion of intent to attack or something like that.



What country do you live in?



> If you have been doing a self-defence martial art such as Ju-Jitsu or Aikido for years and years then you'll probably know how to deal with most weapon-based attacks but if you're a beginner you may not.[/



I can give a 12 year old with the right attitude and a knife and make him more than equivelant of most "black belts" in less than 20 minutes.


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## Okatz (May 15, 2012)

Interesting discussion in here.

I do have to agree that you don't need a weapon in order to defend yourself. As long as you know martial arts or even simple hand to hand combat moves, you can defend yourself. However, will you be at an advantage or at a disadvantage in real life?

I asked because there's a good chance that your weapon has an attacker. This means that he's at an advantage. If you also have a weapon with you, you can take back that advantage especially if you know martial arts.

Here's my advice:

1. Learn martial arts or hand to hand combat. I started my hand to hand combat training by reading this blog - http://www.h2hcombattraining.com/
2. Learn how to use a weapon effectively and efficiently. The mere fact that you don't have a weapon shouldn't cloud your judgment in any way.
3. If you're going to use a knife or a gun, be prepared to kill. If you can't handle that or if you're not confident that you can distinguish a "kill or get killed situation" from a situation wherein you can easily flee, get a stun gun or a Yawara and learn how to use it.


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## Gentle Fist (May 15, 2012)

If you do.. make sure you fully understand "Deadly Force"


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## kungfu penguin (May 15, 2012)

i always feel that it is better to have a weapon and not need it  rather than needing a weapon and not have it!:ultracool


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## Supra Vijai (May 19, 2012)

Having gone through this thread, I find the different mindsets very interesting. A large part of it is going to be local laws that influence carrying a weapon. Here in Australia for instance, we don't do carry and conceal, guns are illegal for the general public and as such gun violence is not a really big problem outside of the armed forces/police/criminal fraternities. The same applies to carrying any weapon really; knives, box cutters, machetes etc all have police cracking down and conducting random bag checks. 

With that in mind we don't carry weapons but that doesn't necessarily diminish our ability to defend ourselves on the streets. We do train weapon defenses of course but anyone who needs it for a specialist environment (such as LEO's) would get that with their training and use that to complement any MA training they may have. 

One point though that doesn't seem to have been discussed in any sort of detail, say you are carrying a weapon. Even if you've pulled the weapon and are ready to use it, what if it gets knocked out of your hands or taken from you by whoever you are facing or one of their friends? What if it jams or, in the case of knives or sticks, breaks? What then? You've escalated the situation from verbal/unarmed to life or death by introducing a tool capable of making that change and all of a sudden it's not in your control anymore. Yes laws are going to be different everywhere, gun/weapon culture will be different everywhere and it's important to train for all contingencies but IMO it's a bad idea to become reliant on a tool for your safety.


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## chinto (May 21, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> It's always good to carry a weapon just in case but if you weren't attacked and the police somehow happened to find out that you were carrying a weapon they could areest you on suspicion of intent to attack or something like that. If you have been doing a self-defence martial art such as Ju-Jitsu or Aikido for years and years then you'll probably know how to deal with most weapon-based attacks but if you're a beginner you may not.



where do you live?  In my state you may openly carry a fire arm and with a CCL concealed carry one, and carry a blade either way.


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## SnyderD (May 23, 2012)

There seem to be differing opinions on this issue. I'm of the camp that says you should always be prepared to defend yourself, whether you have a weapon or not. The fact is there will be times when you will not have a weapon at your disposal. So, if you're relying on that tool, then you're sunk when something happens and you don't have it. Be prepared to use your body to gain control of the situation, and, as someone else mentioned, that sometimes means knowing it's time to hit the bricks. A gentleman who mentored me in martial arts a few years back taught me to use a staff. The thinking behind it was that of all weapons you might find laying around in your environment, something resembling a staff is the most likely (broom, mop, stick/branch, dowel, etc.) Regardless, be prepared to use yourself as your weapon.


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## chinto (May 25, 2012)

my position is that either with a weapon or not you should be able to defend yourself as well.  A weapon is a way to give yourself a combat edge in a survival situation..  Blade, gun, or club or any other weapon can help.  just depends on the laws where you are. in some places you will pay dearly at the "local justice system's", justly or not  for using one weapon or any perhaps.


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## Christian Soldier (Jun 28, 2012)

The others said it pretty well, you should be able to defend yourself with either. A knife or almost any weapon is just a way to level the playing field. Every case I've (doesn't mean there are others where this doesn't happen) read where a knife is drawn by the defendant, the assailent runs away. They are looking for victims. 

Hands down, for the average person, the _best_ self defence weapon you can have is pepper spray. It looks good in court and it'll stop 90% of attackers, that other 10% you should just kick in the groin in addition to macing their face.


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## Instructor (Jun 28, 2012)

I've toted pepper spray and a stun gun with me when I went into rough neighborhoods to hand out food and such but day to day I don't really carry anything.  I carry a knife but it's mostly used as a tool for cutting things not defense.

The nice thing about killing your attacker with a field expedient weapon like a desk telephone or broom is in court it looks like you are defending yourself and not gunning some idiot down.


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 28, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> The others said it pretty well, you should be able to defend yourself with either. A knife or almost any weapon is just a way to level the playing field. Every case I've (doesn't mean there are others where this doesn't happen) read where a knife is drawn by the defendant, the assailent runs away. They are looking for victims.
> 
> Hands down, for the average person, *the best self defence weapon you can have is* pepper spray. It looks good in court and it'll stop 90% of attackers, that other 10% you should just kick in the groin in addition to macing their face.



I highlighted that part in particular because ideally, the _best_ self defense weapon you can have is your awareness, intuition and ability to lose the ego and walk away. If all that fails, then yeah go with the kick in the groin to buy you some time to drop the ego of being in a fight and get away. 

As I mentioned in my earlier post, knowing local laws about what you can carry is a vital part of things. Even if you can carry pepper spray, a lot of places will have duty of retreat laws and failing to comply (or actively trying to comply) with those blows the self defense case out of the water anyway so everything else is just a sliding scale of the criminal charges that can potentially be laid against you. This may sound extremely cynical but the key is that when all things are said and done; we in Australia, and I assume elsewhere, have a Legal system, not a _Justice _system.


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 28, 2012)

Instructor said:


> The nice thing about killing your attacker with a field expedient weapon like a desk telephone or broom is in court it looks like you are defending yourself and not gunning some idiot down.



Agreed! There was a thread on here ages ago with someone joking they would try to construct the mystical art of Broom-Fu... I wonder how that panned out


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## jks9199 (Jun 28, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> The others said it pretty well, you should be able to defend yourself with either. A knife or almost any weapon is just a way to level the playing field. Every case I've (doesn't mean there are others where this doesn't happen) read where a knife is drawn by the defendant, the assailent runs away. They are looking for victims.
> 
> Hands down, for the average person, the _best_ self defence weapon you can have is pepper spray. It looks good in court and it'll stop 90% of attackers, that other 10% you should just kick in the groin in addition to macing their face.



Pepper Spray/OC is unreliable.  I like what one DT instructor called it:  Piss Off Juice.  At it's best, it can be fought past.  If the subject is high, drunk, or just really, really angry -- it doesn't work.


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## Carol (Jun 28, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Pepper Spray/OC is unreliable.  I like what one DT instructor called it:  Piss Off Juice.  At it's best, it can be fought past.  If the subject is high, drunk, or just really, really angry -- it doesn't work.


 
Same with groin kicks, eh?   They have an effect...but it not always a desirable one.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 28, 2012)

Nothing is 100%!  Like Jks9199 mentioned above pepper spray is very, very unrealiable.  Sure it can work but I would not want to bet my life or well being on it!


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## Christian Soldier (Jun 29, 2012)

I've seen some vids of peper spray used and it's not pretty. It's still neccesary to learn empty hand to compliment whatever you use, but as far as real weapons you can carry, pepper spray looks good in court. Nothing is ever 100% guranteed in street fighting. Expect the unexpected and have a back up plan and a back up plan to the back up plan. If you can't just run, peper spray is a good option B, if that doesn't work, move on to whatever is your option C or D.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 29, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> I've seen some vids of peper spray used and it's not pretty. It's still neccesary to learn empty hand to compliment whatever you use, but as far as real weapons you can carry, pepper spray looks good in court. Nothing is ever 100% guranteed in street fighting. Expect the unexpected and have a back up plan and a back up plan to the back up plan. If you can't just run, peper spray is a good option B, if that doesn't work, move on to whatever is your option C or D.


But do you really want to rely on producing a pepper spray canister, then successfully spraying it into someones eyes before they can do anything at all to you, and have faith in it completely incapacitating them? Tis the same reason I dont trust strikes to the groin.


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## Instructor (Jun 29, 2012)

A layered defense seems logical, if the pepper spray fails switch to martial arts or perhaps a tazer.  If that fails we always have the handgun solution.  Frankly the environments I live and work in simply don't require this kind of thinking.

As for me I would rather sort it out rapidly but not lethaly if possible.  The longer the fight goes on the greater the chance I could lose.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 29, 2012)

Instructor said:


> A layered defense seems logical, if the pepper spray fails switch to martial arts or perhaps a tazer.  If that fails we always have the handgun solution.  Frankly the environments I live and work in simply don't require this kind of thinking.
> 
> As for me I would rather sort it out rapidly but not lethaly if possible.  The longer the fight goes on the greater the chance I could lose.


Again: Someone is physically assaulting You, RIGHT NOW. So, Your steps are:
Step 1; See if theres a way to escape.
Step 2; Take out Pepper Spray, aim it at the eyes, spray, somehow actually hit the eyes, and then hope it did something.
Step 3; Take out Tazer or switch to Martial Arts.
Step 4; If Step 3 fails, produce a handgun, chamber a round, raise and fire.

All whilst someone is physically assaulting You? No thanks


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## jks9199 (Jun 29, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> I've seen some vids of peper spray used and it's not pretty. It's still neccesary to learn empty hand to compliment whatever you use, but as far as real weapons you can carry, pepper spray looks good in court. Nothing is ever 100% guranteed in street fighting. Expect the unexpected and have a back up plan and a back up plan to the back up plan. If you can't just run, peper spray is a good option B, if that doesn't work, move on to whatever is your option C or D.



Have you actually used OC?  Have you been exposed to it?  Fought through the exposure?  





As nasty as it is when you're exposed in a training scenario, in the real world?  It doesn't work worth a damn.  It works best on fellow cops.  If the bad guy is pissed off and drunk or high?  He may not notice.  One of my partners dumped an entire large can on a guy in a fight.  The guy didn't notice until about 30 or 40 minutes later.   When he'd been cuffed, stuffed and was in the back of a cruiser.  (Sweating enough to reactivate some of it despite decontamination...)


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## Marcy Shoberg (Jun 30, 2012)

I fear that by the time I have finished reading all of these other great posts I am too tired to formulate a good thought.  I'll try, though. 

Any weapon carried for self defense would be most effective if it also detered a predator from choosing you as a victim.  That's the problem with knives and keys as a weapon: the predator doesn't know you have them at an early enough point. Carry a stick maybe? Umbrella? 

In a territorial self defense situation, no weapon is necessary because by definition leaving will solve the problem.  

In an accidental confrontation self defense situation, deescalation will solve the problem unless the other party doesn't listen to you. So in that case, a knife could be useful I guess, but I'm not sure it's more useful than empty handed strikes. A stick is certainly useful in that situation as well, but not as convenient to carry.  

For the ambush situation where one has no idea if it is predatory or accidental confrontation, no weapon is likely to be easy enough to reach. 

Pepper spray can be a deterrent as well as a weapon for a predatory or accidental confrontation situation (but is unreliable as a weapon as others have mentioned).

I see quite a few other problems with knives as self-defense weapons.  It has always seemed to me that they just help a person do more permanent damage to the attacker and wouldn't actually end the attack any quicker than palm strikes to the head and knees to the groin. Also, if weapons are held by both parties, stick beats knife, and gun beats knife, and bigger knife beats smaller knife.

I think a legally concealed handgun would be better than body weapons in many situations, though (long distance, good deterrant if there is time to display, beats other weapons).   

Goodnight all.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 30, 2012)

Marcy Shoberg said:


> I fear that by the time I have finished reading all of these other great posts I am too tired to formulate a good thought.  I'll try, though.
> 
> Any weapon carried for self defense would be most effective if it also detered a predator from choosing you as a victim.  That's the problem with knives and keys as a weapon: the predator doesn't know you have them at an early enough point. Carry a stick maybe? Umbrella?
> 
> ...


Small details - 

If your predator knows youre carrying a weapon, he will likely just take you from behind using a weapon of his own, or as a part of a group, nullifying its use.

Leaving doesnt always work - Some people just want to hurt you. You cant forget that.

In an accidental confrontation, a knife wont look good in court when hands would have worked fine.

In an ambush, nothing will help you.

Deterring someone whos ambushed you is a bit hard when theyve already ambushed you.

Stabs will do more damage than palms to the head and knees to the groin, i assure you - But it also tells the other person that you are now a danger to their life, and they will hurt you bad if they get the upper hand. Additionally, i wouldnt suggest relying on knees to the groin. Use them - swell - But dont rely on them. For your sake.
Stick beats knife in fighting - But being furiously shanked beats you in an attack, about as readily as being furiously bludgeoned with a stick. Guns arent going to save you if you cant produce, raise, and fire it before some lunatic with a knife whos going to be attacking you from, you know, furious shanking range, can do his thing. Same goes for knives. Youre not going to get into a 'weapon fight', youre going to be attacked by a person, whos using a weapon.

Now explain a situation other than if you are working as a security guard, or police officer, or soldier, in which you are going to be accosted from long range so that you can use it as a deterrent? Look at the training video above again. He uses himself to fend off the person who tries to snatch his handgun, backs off, THEN uses it. It wasnt the means to the end. It stopped things from going further. Does someone have that video of that guy doing reality based knife defense, where he proves a point by turning at one of the people attending, asking them in an aggressive tone what their problem is, then rushing him with the fake knife? Ill see if i can dig it up.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 30, 2012)




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## Marcy Shoberg (Jul 1, 2012)

Please don't think I take an argumentative tone.  I think you made some great points.  But, you asked . . .



Cyriacus said:


> Now explain a situation other than if you are working as a security guard, or police officer, or soldier, in which you are going to be accosted from long range so that you can use it as a deterrent?.



That is a very good question.  Here are my thoughts at this time, but I plan to research it further soon by looking up reports of CCW holders thwarting attacks without firing and hear how they went down.  I'll call my friend who teaches CC classes. 

In your house someone breaking the door down to rush in 
In a parking lot someone yelling at you and walking towards you who mistakes you for someone they want revenge on 
In your office after you hear commotion in a neighboring office and look over to see an altercation 
If you, as a bystander, are attempting to rescue a stranger who is being attacked


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## Cyriacus (Jul 1, 2012)

Marcy Shoberg said:


> Please don't think I take an argumentative tone.  I think you made some great points.  But, you asked . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know youre not argumentative - We are merely discussing 

In my house, i have alot of corners. If someone broke in here, theyd be in my face if they rounded a corner. We'd both be reacting on a twitch, and thats not a test id like to take, when i could quite reliably punch them in the head, rather than shoot them and kill them.

In the parking lot circumstance, thats correct. But the situation is highly unlikely.

So, youre working in an office. You hear a commotion, and go look over at it... Then You pull out a gun and tell everyone to calm down. Ehehe - I see what Youre getting at with the concept though. You say more or less the same thing, but in a more realistic scenario, in the next one.

There We go. Thats realistic enough. But does the possibility of being in a situation to rescue a stranger who is being attacked come up as often as being attacked with noone to help You, and does the possibility justify carrying a Firearm?


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## Christian Soldier (Jul 1, 2012)

I stand corrected, my apologies. Mace will not be your best option. When it comes down to a real self defence situation there aren't really any good options besides leaving. There are definitely really bad options and options that are better than others, but there is a counter to pretty much everything and we can go on all day on those. Nothing is guranteed in a street fight.

Cyriacus, There are many situations where having a gun is your best option in a SD situation, in fact I'd say it's the majority. If you read the Armed Citizen in the Rifleman magazine you wil find about a dozen scenarios a month where common citezens with firearms where saved _because_ they had firearms. 

And heck yes, I think saving someone else is a great reason to carry a firearm. It's not like you are carrrying an IED, guns are perfectly legal in most areas of the U.S. after some paperwork.

I'm sure what you 'need' varies a little person to person, and a varies a lot per situation, but a gun covers a lot of those situations, and the others you can cover with your other SD training. 

Do you need a weapon to defend yourself? That's for you to decide. But I think we can all agree you should definitely learn to defend yourself somehow.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 1, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> I stand corrected, my apologies. Mace will not be your best option. When it comes down to a real self defence situation there aren't really any good options besides leaving. There are definitely really bad options and options that are better than others, but there is a counter to pretty much everything and we can go on all day on those. Nothing is guranteed in a street fight.



Sadly, leaving isnt always possible.



> Cyriacus, There are many situations where having a gun is your best option in a SD situation, in fact I'd say it's the majority. If you read the Armed Citizen in the Rifleman magazine you wil find about a dozen scenarios a month where common citezens with firearms where saved _because_ they had firearms.


Of course. But what about all the situations in which a firearm would have been useless, or in which someone had a firearm and couldnt use it? Google "Man saves with martial arts" - And you will find, well, martial artists saving people. Look in a gun magazine, and of course, they will promote the benefits of guns based on the instances in which they succeed.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/gun-...om-beating-by-berlusconi-rioters-6547249.html
Was this in the magazine?



> And heck yes, I think saving someone else is a great reason to carry a firearm. It's not like you are carrrying an IED, guns are perfectly legal in most areas of the U.S. after some paperwork.


Of course - But it really doesnt happen too often. Getting a gun in the hopes of saving another person could just end up being blown money.



> I'm sure what you 'need' varies a little person to person, and a varies a lot per situation, but a gun covers a lot of those situations, and the others you can cover with your other SD training.


And of course, some circumstances would allow the use of a firearm. Namely, if you actually use unarmed methods first, THEN use the firearm to prevent it going further. I did say that above somewere.



> Do you need a weapon to defend yourself? That's for you to decide. But I think we can all agree you should definitely learn to defend yourself somehow.


Yes We can


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## Cyriacus (Jul 2, 2012)

I found the Video I was looking for.


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## Christian Soldier (Jul 3, 2012)

Layered defence bro. 
It's bettter to have a gun and not really need it, than to _not_ have it and really need it.

That roman guy should have spent more time trainging and had a better 'layered defence'. "The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in combat". Also, would _not_ having a gun been better? I don't think so. 'Perhaps if he had just used his martial arts trainging against that angry mob he would have been better off', year right. This isn't the Matrix, sometimes in life you need an equalizer. This officer failed to properly take advantage of his equaizer and lost.

And no, it's just an American Magazine. So an Itialian policeman getting beaten wasn't mentioned.

Your self defence strategy should be like a parfait, with many layers and each one being a little different. I would suggest one of those layers include a firearm. If you don't want to carry one, that's fine. It's your choice, but don't discount the firearm as a viable self defence option for others.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 3, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> Layered defence bro.
> It's bettter to have a gun and not really need it, than to _not_ have it and really need it.


So I should have a Gun, a Knife, and a Bat at any given moment during the day? Along with a gas mask in case of thermonuclear war (Im kidding, now )



> That roman guy should have spent more time trainging and had a better 'layered defence'. "The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in combat". Also, would _not_ having a gun been better? I don't think so. 'Perhaps if he had just used his martial arts trainging against that angry mob he would have been better off', year right. This isn't the Matrix, sometimes in life you need an equalizer. This officer failed to properly take advantage of his equaizer and lost.


Oh, believe Me. I know it isnt the Matrix. Im saying Guns are harder to use in Close Combat than, say, a Knife, more than anything. A Knife is easier and faster to produce. It can come from any angle. It doesnt need to be prepared and fired. You can hit with it as You produce it. If You have time to get out a gun, You had time to get out a Knife.



> And no, it's just an American Magazine. So an Itialian policeman getting beaten wasn't mentioned.


To be fair, I found that article from a random google.



> Your self defence strategy should be like a parfait, with many layers and each one being a little different. I would suggest one of those layers include a firearm. If you don't want to carry one, that's fine. It's your choice, but don't discount the firearm as a viable self defence option for others.


Im not. But its much less viable for the ways Youre likely to be attacked as a method of direct defense.
Again, a great way to prevent a situation from going further after You beat it down a bit. Not such a great first choice given how close and fast most attacks tend to be. A great choice for when You have a chance to get it out first, or are interrupting someone else being assaulted.

Just to touch on the other side of things a bit, because Ive been a bit monotopical on talking about the downsides of Guns - A gun is a good tool. If You even just fire it at the ground, the noise could be enough to get an advantage, and run like buggery. If you ARE able to beat your foe back and produce the weapon, you can end the engagement right there. If you are intervening in an assault, you can use it. If you are able to run, then run into a dead end or some other impassible obstacle, a firearm could save you. But for a close range attack, with either a knife or empty hands, once it kicks off, youre best of using, well, a knife, stick, or empty hands to settle that part of it.


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## Christian Soldier (Jul 3, 2012)

I think we kind of went in a circle there but at least now it's a very well informed circle for others to read and learn.

"It's better to have a gun and not really need it, than to _not_ have it and really need it." Is pretty much the same concept I'd continue to repeat anyway.

I personally don't carry a firearm anyway (too young) but I absolutely support those who are willing to. Once again training can be a huge difference here. Guns are harder to use than knives _period_. But with the right trainging, having a gun can safe your life from even the most dire situations. If you are going to carry a gun, there are all sorts of defencive handgun courses around the country that I would highly recomend attending. Awareness should also be with you everywhere you go no matter if you are just carrying your empty hands or a full size pistol. It's good to have that extra time to react.

Ask Steve Zimmerman how far away you have to be from your attacker to shoot him. 

I totaly agree, a gun is a tool and has applications where it is best suited. I'm pretty sure it's that way with everything though.


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## billc (Jul 3, 2012)

Just as a point, a stick doesn't beat a knife as a rule.  It can of course, but it takes a bit of effort to beat someone with a stick.  If they are on drugs, they may not even notice the beating with the stick.  I saw a video of a police officer at a traffic stop confronting two drunk guys.  They assaulted him and he fought them with, I believe, a metal collapsable baton.  He whacked on both of them and it didn't stop either one.  True, he wasn't going for head shots, but if they had had a knife, he would have been dead.


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## Carol (Jul 3, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> So I should have a Gun, a Knife, and a Bat at any given moment during the day? Along with a gas mask in case of thermonuclear war (Im kidding, now )
> 
> 
> Oh, believe Me. I know it isnt the Matrix. Im saying Guns are harder to use in Close Combat than, say, a Knife, more than anything. A Knife is easier and faster to produce. It can come from any angle. It doesnt need to be prepared and fired. You can hit with it as You produce it. If You have time to get out a gun, You had time to get out a Knife.
> ...



Which training taught you that firing warning shots is a good idea?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Cyriacus (Jul 3, 2012)

Carol said:


> Which training taught you that firing warning shots is a good idea?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


It didnt. I was honestly reaching for any advantage to a firearm i could plausibly think of.


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## chinto (Jul 4, 2012)

First NEVER EVER FIRE A WARNING SHOT!!! sure way in most states to go to prison! if its serious enough to fire you better be in enough fear to be shooting to kill! 

Next, any weapon is an advantage, so is always a good thing. is it absolutely necessary? No.  If you carry a weapon, from a walking stick to a .45  1911A1  be able to use the weapon competently and understand that the cops will be asking questions.  please consult an attorney  in your state or country and find out what the laws are on self defense and what they are about carry and use of any weapon!  also check on city and county/provincial laws to!  OC spray and tear gas are illegal in some counties and cities and even some country's I understand.  but then so is caring even a small pocket knife...UK has some stupidly insane weapons laws for instance.


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 4, 2012)

chinto said:


> First NEVER EVER FIRE A WARNING SHOT!!! sure way in most states to go to prison! if its serious enough to fire you better be in enough fear to be shooting to kill!
> 
> Next, any weapon is an advantage, so is always a good thing. is it absolutely necessary? No.  If you carry a weapon, from a walking stick to a .45  1911A1  be able to use the weapon competently and understand that the cops will be asking questions.  please consult an attorney  in your state or country and find out what the laws are on self defense and what they are about carry and use of any weapon!  also check on city and county/provincial laws to!  OC spray and tear gas are illegal in some counties and cities and even some country's I understand.  but then so is caring even a small pocket knife...UK has some stupidly insane weapons laws for instance.



Well said  Australia have extremely strict laws as well. From a logical point of view I can see why they came into force and overall for the vast majority of the population the laws have made no difference. We simply don't live in a culture where having a weapon is necessary or even practical. What this does mean for us is that a lot of weapons - guns in particular - are limited to the criminal fraternities and most people in the day to day lives never come across them. On the other side of the coin, sadly it does mean a lot of us are lacking on the specifics of the weapons or their uses. For instance, if you put a gun in my hand and told me to flip off the safety or release the magazine, I'm more likely to shoot myself in the foot turning the gun over like a rubiks cube than I am to know how to work the damn thing. Cyriacus is based in Australia as well and whilst I don't know if he has any history of living in the US, it does mean our understanding of the specific laws with regards to firearms will be a touch hazy at best. 

All that said, as a martial artist, it's a total pain in the butt that I need to go through police checks and file a bajillion bits of paperwork in order to get even metal training weapons!


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## Cyriacus (Jul 4, 2012)

chinto said:


> First NEVER EVER FIRE A WARNING SHOT!!! sure way in most states to go to prison! if its serious enough to fire you better be in enough fear to be shooting to kill!
> 
> Next, any weapon is an advantage, so is always a good thing. is it absolutely necessary? No.  If you carry a weapon, from a walking stick to a .45  1911A1  be able to use the weapon competently and understand that the cops will be asking questions.  please consult an attorney  in your state or country and find out what the laws are on self defense and what they are about carry and use of any weapon!  also check on city and county/provincial laws to!  OC spray and tear gas are illegal in some counties and cities and even some country's I understand.  but then so is caring even a small pocket knife...UK has some stupidly insane weapons laws for instance.



Ill be sure not to clutch at straws in future trying to make firearms sound useful  (Im quite serious, mind)


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## Carol (Jul 4, 2012)

Good training eliminates misconceptions about firearms, and is also the best way to understand their safest use.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 4, 2012)

Carol said:


> Good training eliminates misconceptions about firearms, and is also the best way to understand their safest use.


I used to go to firing ranges all the time. I just lost interest after a while.
When I started training, I found that more often than not, anything thats anything happens up way too close to be dependant on Firearms. As Ive kinda been saying primarily, before I tried to sound less biased by scraping together praise - Praise that has been nullified by others, reassuring Me of My position on the matter


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## stonewall1350 (Jul 7, 2012)

Honestly...my personal method of self defense is between my ears. Keep alert, aware, and don't go somewhere I shouldn't. There is of course the old problem of being exactly where I should and someone else doing something they shouldn't. So of course my weapon is still between my ears. Eyes open and aware. Usually works. I do keep a 9mm on my hip for those bad days, and a shotgun in my home with 00 Buck in case anything hits the fan.

Do I need a weapon? Probably not. Do I keep them?



> *If you* find yourself  in a *fair fight*, you didn't plan your mission properly



-David Hackworth

Yes.

PS:

Firearms ARE up close and personal weapons. I train extensively for the 3-6 foot range and rarely shoot past 5 yards except for fun (handguns...shotguns are my hunting implement as well so that is different). So just wanted to get that out there. I feel that deployment of a firearm in close range is easier than a stick or knife. But of course I train a lot.


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## frank raud (Jul 10, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> The others said it pretty well, you should be able to defend yourself with either.* A knife or almost any weapon is just a way to level the playing field. *
> 
> Hands down, for the average person, the _best_ self defence weapon you can have is pepper spray. It looks good in court and it'll stop 90% of attackers, that other 10% you should just kick in the groin in addition to macing their face.


A weapon used for self defense should not be considered"just a way to level the playing field." A weapon is a force multiplier. What you want is something that gives you an advantage, if possible, not something that is equivalent.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 10, 2012)

stonewall1350 said:


> Honestly...my personal method of self defense is between my ears. Keep alert, aware, and don't go somewhere I shouldn't. There is of course the old problem of being exactly where I should and someone else doing something they shouldn't. So of course my weapon is still between my ears. Eyes open and aware. Usually works. I do keep a 9mm on my hip for those bad days, and a shotgun in my home with 00 Buck in case anything hits the fan.
> 
> Do I need a weapon? Probably not. Do I keep them?
> 
> ...


What about when the guy is 1-2 feet away, and punching Your face? You fight Him off, until You can Your firearm out at about the 3 foot range. To prevent the situation from going further.


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## stonewall1350 (Jul 10, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> What about when the guy is 1-2 feet away, and punching Your face? You fight Him off, until You can Your firearm out at about the 3 foot range. To prevent the situation from going further.



Well I am merely saying that you cannot discount the firearm for close range. Acting as if close range is out of the wheelhouse of a firearm is unrealistic. Most shootings are at the 3-6 foot range. And of course I am not going to pull a knife or stick just so I can draw a gun.

I am sure you know all that about firearms. Part of proper firearms training for self defense is obviously the techniques to get to your gun. If someone is 1-2 feet from me and trying to punch me? I am going to be throwing knees, elbows, and trying to use my training to use a hip toss, or Osoto Gari (Judo/BJJ/JuJitsu) type moves. I am also not afraid to headbutt  ....aim for the nose lol.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 10, 2012)

stonewall1350 said:


> Well I am merely saying that you cannot discount the firearm for close range. Acting as if close range is out of the wheelhouse of a firearm is unrealistic. Most shootings are at the 3-6 foot range. And of course I am not going to pull a knife or stick just so I can draw a gun.



Most shootings? Thats like saying that most stabbings come from in Your face.



> I am sure you know all that about firearms. Part of proper firearms training for self defense is obviously the techniques to get to your gun. If someone is 1-2 feet from me and trying to punch me? I am going to be throwing knees, elbows, and trying to use my training to use a hip toss, or Osoto Gari (Judo/BJJ/JuJitsu) type moves. I am also not afraid to headbutt  ....aim for the nose lol.


Exactly! Im not discounting Firearms, Im saying not to rely on the things


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## Christian Soldier (Jul 11, 2012)

frank raud said:


> A weapon used for self defense should not be considered"just a way to level the playing field." A weapon is a force multiplier. What you want is something that gives you an advantage, if possible, not something that is equivalent.




Yeah, that's pretty much what I ment. Initally the odds are in your attackers favor, now they should be in yours.

"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plann your mission properly" - Ken Hackworth

Carrying a weapon can help ensure the fight isn't fair and that the odds are in your favor.


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 11, 2012)

frank raud said:


> A weapon used for self defense should not be considered"just a way to level the playing field." A weapon is a force multiplier. What you want is something that gives you an advantage, if possible, not something that is equivalent.





Christian Soldier said:


> Yeah, that's pretty much what I ment. Initally the odds are in your attackers favor, now they should be in yours.
> 
> *"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plann your mission properly" - Ken Hackworth
> 
> Carrying a weapon can help ensure the fight isn't fair and that the odds are in your favor.*



What both you guys are describing sounds great on paper (well, a monitor) however that attitude can very quickly drive any situation from defense, which is what this thread is about, to assault or in extreme cases, manslaughter. 

In a SD situation, a weapon or an object IMO should be picked up to act as an equalizer at it's base level and if it offers advantages, then great! Level the playing field as you put it Frank. If an attacker has a stick and you pick up a gun and use it, it's no longer appropriate force and therefore no longer within the realm of self defense. If the attacker is coming at you with a knife and you pick up a bat or a stick - either of which is a force multiplier and gives you a reach advantage - and break their arm with it or drop them to the ground and the fight ends there, then great. You acted to protect yourself and did what had to be done. If however, you disarm them and then keep hitting them or take them to ground and keep hitting them, you are now the one committing a felony. Yeah sure they instigated things but *you* took it to a whole new level. Keep in mind, I'm not saying you as in you guys personally, just referring to anyone in that situation. There is a reason even though police officers are given guns, they don't draw them, let alone shoot them in every situation. Everything must be taken on it's own merits so to broadly advocate getting something bigger and more powerful than the other guy, as opposed to something that will raise your chances of getting out safe, I'd say, is based in fear rather than logic and reasoning. 

Christian Soldier, sorry if this sounds preachy mate but I think you're missing the point of *defense *entirely! I highlighted your quote and the next sentence because in a civilian self defense situation, there is no fight and there sure as hell is no mission. If you are on a mission on the streets, you are a vigilante and acting outside the law anyway so no advice given here is going to be good enough. As I mentioned before, everything must be taken in context. What applies to a solider or an LEO does not apply to the average citizen. Carrying a weapon (if you are legally allowed to) can possibly be a good thing and have it's advantages but overall you don't just tip the scales in your favor. You raise the stakes considerably across the board. I will say that when it comes to real world violence, there is no such thing as a _fair fight. _The bad guys won't take turns attacking you, will generally have friends or backup with them so you are outnumbered, will generally have weapons of their own and won't worry about the correct way to use them or rationalize what the consequences could be. They will be attacking in a primal fashion driven either by the desire to hurt or the desire for your belongings. Telling yourself you can somehow make that into a fair fight is frankly going to be detrimental to any serious training you can do.


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## frank raud (Jul 11, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> What both you guys are describing sounds great on paper (well, a monitor) however that attitude can very quickly drive any situation from defense, which is what this thread is about, to assault or in extreme cases, manslaughter.
> 
> In a SD situation, a weapon or an object IMO should be picked up to act as an equalizer at it's base level and if it offers advantages, then great! Level the playing field as you put it Frank. If an attacker has a stick and you pick up a gun and use it, it's no longer appropriate force and therefore no longer within the realm of self defense. If the attacker is coming at you with a knife and you pick up a bat or a stick - either of which is a force multiplier and gives you a reach advantage - and break their arm with it or drop them to the ground and the fight ends there, then great. You acted to protect yourself and did what had to be done. If however, you disarm them and then keep hitting them or take them to ground and keep hitting them, you are now the one committing a felony. Yeah sure they instigated things but *you* took it to a whole new level. Keep in mind, I'm not saying you as in you guys personally, just referring to anyone in that situation. There is a reason even though police officers are given guns, they don't draw them, let alone shoot them in every situation. Everything must be taken on it's own merits so to broadly advocate getting something bigger and more powerful than the other guy, as opposed to something that will raise your chances of getting out safe, I'd say, is based in fear rather than logic and reasoning.



What is appropriate force will unfortunately depend on where you live. In Canada, if someone is attacking me with a stick, and I am in fear for my life or serious bodily harm, I can justifably shoot him.(Problem is my gun would have to be locked in a gun safe, unloaded, with amunition locked up separately:ultracool) Basically if a reasonable person would feel mortally threatened, I can do whatever is necessary to stop the attack, up to and including ending the attacker's life. That's the short version. You are of course correct, if I managed to successfully stop the attack, I cannot continue to beat someone with a club, or stab them, it then becomes assault on my part.


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 11, 2012)

frank raud said:


> What is appropriate force will unfortunately depend on where you live. In Canada, if someone is attacking me with a stick, and I am in fear for my life or serious bodily harm, I can justifably shoot him.(Problem is *my gun would have to be locked in a gun safe, unloaded, with amunition locked up separately*:ultracool) Basically if a reasonable person would feel mortally threatened, I can do whatever is necessary to stop the attack, up to and including ending the attacker's life. That's the short version. You are of course correct, if I managed to successfully stop the attack, I cannot continue to beat someone with a club, or stab them, it then becomes assault on my part.



Hahaha same here - assuming you can get the damn thing in the first place!  Look, I agree with what you posted there. If you have a gun, genuinely feel fearful for your life, and you can communicate that in a court of law, then by all means shoot if that's your only option. My point was more that picking up a weapon with the mindset of being bigger and more powerful from the outset, if the particular situation doesn't call for it can be a very bad thing for everyone concerned. I've personally found that training with the mindset of getting my hands on some form of equalizer to level the playing field generally means I don't go overboard in my actions under adrenaline and to be bluntly honest, it adds to the reality I am building as part of my training of defense. As has been mentioned before, where I live, one does have the right to bear arms as a general rule. As such, I am unlikely to be able to pick up a gun or even a knife in most situations and my training must reflect that reality. That of course is my approach and not for everyone but when we are dealing with someone not as experienced with the arts or violence, IMO it's best not to encourage any fantasies they may have about "winning" a street fight


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## stonewall1350 (Jul 11, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Most shootings? Thats like saying that most stabbings come from in Your face.




What? There are some old reports I am trying to find (google)...and I see a lot of quotes and comments like "90% 6-10 feet or less."



> Exactly! Im not discounting Firearms, Im saying not to rely on the things



I am relying on my brain first. Then my words. Then whatever is going to give me the upper hand. That is my firearm...I am using it assuming the fight has escalated to that point (which I mean how often is someone going to put you into a situation where you NEED to fight...but it isn't for your life). I mean sure there is the rare occasion like a bar brawl...that I don't get in, but have the skills to get out of becuse I can't carry a gun.

But a firearm is as much a tool to rely on as a knife, stick, or your fists. It simply requires proper training and knowledge of deployment.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 11, 2012)

stonewall1350 said:


> What? There are some old reports I am trying to find (google)...and I see a lot of quotes and comments like "90% 6-10 feet or less."


That might be where the person starts from - But A: You do not often see attacks like this coming, and B: If You do see it coming, He is already moving towards You. Not standing there and warning You of His oncoming attack.




> I am relying on my brain first. Then my words. Then whatever is going to give me the upper hand. That is my firearm...I am using it assuming the fight has escalated to that point (which I mean how often is someone going to put you into a situation where you NEED to fight...but it isn't for your life). I mean sure there is the rare occasion like a bar brawl...that I don't get in, but have the skills to get out of becuse I can't carry a gun.


Your brain is what tells Your body to move. You control Your brain. Therefore You are reliant on Yourself and what You are capable of. If that doesnt include being able to create the room to produce Your firearm, well, yeah.



> But a firearm is as much a tool to rely on as a knife, stick, or your fists. It simply requires proper training and knowledge of deployment.



Yeah - And sometimes to deploy it, there needs to be a halt in the movements of the person trying to beat stab or batter You.


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## Dolev (Jul 12, 2012)

I noticed that an effective weapon is a "low" voltage stun baton which extends out to some 20 inches.  Since he gets stunned immediately chances of you getting charged with assault or murder are pretty low; unless you overdo it. The reach is a good deterrent for knife attacks, and i guess if you pull it out early then its just a baton, but you would put an empty handed guy in defense mode which wouldn't be very good. To sum it all up, no matter what you carry you have to be careful. Curling your hand into a fist is a way of instigating an attack. :uhohh:​


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## Cyriacus (Jul 12, 2012)

Dolev said:


> I noticed that an effective weapon is a "low" voltage stun baton which extends out to some 20 inches.  Since he gets stunned immediately chances of you getting charged with assault or murder are pretty low; unless you overdo it. The reach is a good deterrent for knife attacks, and i guess if you pull it out early then its just a baton, but you would put an empty handed guy in defense mode which wouldn't be very good. To sum it all up, no matter what you carry you have to be careful. Curling your hand into a fist is a way of instigating an attack. :uhohh:​


This requires more than half a second to produce, however.


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## jks9199 (Jul 12, 2012)

Dolev said:


> I noticed that an effective weapon is a "low" voltage stun baton which extends out to some 20 inches.  Since he gets stunned immediately chances of you getting charged with assault or murder are pretty low; unless you overdo it. The reach is a good deterrent for knife attacks, and i guess if you pull it out early then its just a baton, but you would put an empty handed guy in defense mode which wouldn't be very good. To sum it all up, no matter what you carry you have to be careful. Curling your hand into a fist is a way of instigating an attack. :uhohh:​





Cyriacus said:


> This requires more than half a second to produce, however.



It's not that effective, either.  It's effectively a cattle prod or standard stun gun.  It's pain compliance, at best.  Despite what you see on tv and movies, stun guns don't disable people.  The best would be the Taser C2.  That'll give you 30 seconds, assuming a good hit and nothing breaks the leads, where the attacker is likely to be immobilized.


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## Dolev (Jul 13, 2012)

I personally cringe whenever i hear tasers or stun guns, I can't bring myself to use one of the high voltage ones which immobilize immediately.
Instead of a low voltage baton would a high voltage baton be more effective; i mean its not a cattle prod, everything except the handle is conducting electricity.


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## Christian Soldier (Jul 13, 2012)

Dolev said:


> I personally cringe whenever i hear tasers or stun guns, I can't bring myself to use one of the high voltage ones which immobilize immediately.
> Instead of a low voltage baton would a high voltage baton be more effective; i mean its not a cattle prod, everything except the handle is conducting electricity.




They really aren't as bad as the media portrays them. We had a taser demo last week in our shcool and we tested a few that you would see often with the '800,000' volts and it was little more than a pinch and the attacker was barely effected. The civilian tasers work well but as soon as the shock is off you are back to normal and they can be beaten if you hold out something in front of you like a jacket or a backpack. Even of one of the pins hits it's fine because you need both for it to work.


Super Vijal, it's the concept that you should be prepared to win that matters. There's all this talk about how fights happen closer than you think and you are suggesting that perhaps instead of carrying a knife or gun it would be better to find an appropriate improvised weapon to match the attack, pick it up, and only use it as aggressively as your attacker, no more. Sure this sounds great in court, but it'll be your family and a few local police telling the jury exactly what happened while you are in critical condition in the hospital or in the mourge. It's just not practical.
If my attackers are going to come in high number and well armed, perhaps I should do the same to increase my survivability . You may have missed the 'force multiplier' thing, one of the great things about weapons is they can increase the chance of your survivability even in desperate situations.
  Your mission is to protect your friends and family and live another day, it's constan and you never know when you might need to execute it. So in the mean time, it might be a good idea to arm yourself with a weapon and learn how to use it.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 13, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> Super Vijal, it's the concept that you should be prepared to win that matters. There's all this talk about how fights happen closer than you think


Fights dont happen closer than You think - Attacks do. And They are closer than You think.


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 14, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> Super Vijal, it's the concept that *you should be prepared to win* that matters. There's all this talk about how fights happen closer than you think and you are suggesting that perhaps instead of carrying a knife or gun it would be better to find an appropriate improvised weapon to match the attack, pick it up, and only use it as aggressively as your attacker, no more. Sure this sounds great in court, but it'll be your family and a few local police telling the jury exactly what happened while you are in critical condition in the hospital or in the mourge. It's just not practical.
> If my attackers are going to come in high number and well armed, perhaps I should do the same to increase my survivability . You may have missed the 'force multiplier' thing, one of the great things about weapons is they can increase the chance of your survivability even in desperate situations.
> Your mission is to protect your friends and family and live another day, it's constan and you never know when you might need to execute it. So in the mean time, it might be a good idea to arm yourself with a weapon and learn how to use it.



That one sentence right there means I maintain my belief that you have completely missed the point of defense. Winning has no place in a real world violent encounter. It belongs on the mat, in the octagon or a ring. On the streets, it's a case of: you should be prepared to *survive*. 

There's all this talk about fights (attacks, actually) happening closer than you think because they do. What would you say a typical distance for a knife attack is? What about a sudden shove and hit type attack? I am not suggesting it is better to not carry a weapon, I am saying it is best to know your local laws and rights and to work within those guidelines. I am also saying it is important to realise carrying a gun does not make you invincible but rather raises the stakes considerably. I am definitely saying you should match the attackers aggression rather than purely worrying about overpowering it and beating it because you are no use to your family if you are alive and locked in a prison because you thought you were protecting them. The biggest component of any self defense (which includes protecting friends and family) has to be appropriate force.

If your attackers are going to come in high numbers and you want to do the same, you would need to constantly travel in a posse or with an entourage. Believe me, I didn't miss the force multiplier aspect mentioned, I simply pointed out that a large part of SD is mindset and seeking something purely for the sake of being bigger and stronger doesn't gel with that. A weapon can increase you chance of survival, they can also aggravate your attacker and escalate things from a verbal shoving match to them pulling weapons of their own, not to mention there is a real chance you will lose your weapon to your attacker and suddenly have a whole new threat to deal with. All that aside, as Cyriacus has been pointing out, unless you have very specific training, the time taken to draw the weapon and calm the adrenaline enough to use it effectively has to be factored in. 

Personally, my mission is to live a full and happy life, doing what I enjoy with people I want to enjoy those things with. My mission is to go about my day to day, go to training, develop myself as a person and become enriched by my experiences. If we are talking purely SD, my mission is to ensure such a situation doesn't arise and I can keep my friends, family and myself safe without ever needing to test my physical, combative or martial skills; or prove myself. If I fail in my mission, the rest of it comes into play.


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## stonewall1350 (Jul 14, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> Wh
> 
> In a SD situation, a weapon or an object IMO should be picked up to act as an equalizer at it's base level and if it offers advantages, then great! Level the playing field as you put it Frank. If an attacker has a stick and you pick up a gun and use it, it's no longer appropriate force and therefore no longer within the realm of self defense.



A stick is absolutely a deadly weapon...and the rules of engagement for a firearm are "Death or grevious bodily harm."

A firearm is to be carried with a concealed weapons license...and it may be used to stop the forcible commision of a felony (this is Florida law btw), and it can be used to stop someone committing a violent act against you if you feel "death or grevious bodily harm," may befall you if you do not engage. It applies to others through the "stand in their shoes" clause of the CC Laws.

Quite frankly if someone pulls a stick and intends to beat ME with it...I will be pulling my firearm. Do I WANT to? No. But at the point of that kind of violence...I feel that the choice had been taken away from me (or anyone else in that situation). If in the process of getting my firearm out...and they flee...I CANNOT shoot them.


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## stonewall1350 (Jul 14, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Yeah - And sometimes to deploy it, there needs to be a halt in the movements of the person trying to beat stab or batter You.



Exactly. Same with pulling ANY other weapon. Just because it requires a little extra skill to deploy doesn't mean I am going to take it out of my tool bag. All that is part of proper training.

I mean if I END the fight whilst in the process of creating space...then obviously I will not deploy the firearm. That would depend upon how my attacker (attackers?) react to my blows...if I can press the attack and neutralize the threat...sure enough I will. But I am NOT going to take get into a rolling on the ground fight, or extended stand up battle. They would more than likely run because they know I will not be a victim without them suffering, or I am moving to my firearm and the fight is going to end. Remember "death OR grevious bodily harm."


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 14, 2012)

stonewall1350 said:


> A stick is absolutely a deadly weapon...and the rules of engagement for a firearm are "Death or grevious bodily harm."
> 
> A firearm is to be carried with a concealed weapons license...and it may be used to stop the forcible commision of a felony (this is Florida law btw), and it can be used to stop someone committing a violent act against you if you feel "death or grevious bodily harm," may befall you if you do not engage. It applies to others through the "stand in their shoes" clause of the CC Laws.
> 
> Quite frankly if someone pulls a stick and intends to beat ME with it...I will be pulling my firearm. Do I WANT to? No. But at the point of that kind of violence...I feel that the choice had been taken away from me (or anyone else in that situation). If in the process of getting my firearm out...and they flee...I CANNOT shoot them.



I'm fairly sure we are saying the same thing. I mentioned appropriate force multiple times in that post and my posts since on the topic. If you feel in fear for your life and are able to, certainly deploy your firearm if you are legally allowed to do so. I also have no qualms with a stick being a deadly weapon in an attacker's hands. My point to Christian Soldier was mainly knowing when it is appropriate to use said firearm and when not to - such as when the attack ends, you have subdued the opponent either verbally or physically or when they are running away. If your attacker however is standing there, yelling threats at you from a dozen feet away and you pull out your firearm and shoot, there is no way you can justify your use of the weapon was my point.


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## stonewall1350 (Jul 14, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> I'm fairly sure we are saying the same thing. I mentioned appropriate force multiple times in that post and my posts since on the topic. If you feel in fear for your life and are able to, certainly deploy your firearm if you are legally allowed to do so. I also have no qualms with a stick being a deadly weapon in an attacker's hands. My point to Christian Soldier was mainly knowing when it is appropriate to use said firearm and when not to - such as when the attack ends, you have subdued the opponent either verbally or physically or when they are running away. If your attacker however is standing there, yelling threats at you from a dozen feet away and you pull out your firearm and shoot, there is no way you can justify your use of the weapon was my point.



Alrighty  I kind of read more on it. You CAN keep someone at gun point IF they surrender (not always advised...and if they try to run...let them and call the police IMMEDIATELY), but I certainly have little interest in holding someone down or searching that. That is a job for the clean up crew (police). If someone IS yelling threats and you CAN prepare yourself for defense. I would most likely get myself into a defensive posture (one hand in a foward position the other hand behind my back where I carry my weapon), and start telling him get back. I mean the situation certainly depends on the how the person is acting of course, but I refuse to lose at a confrontation on the street because losing is death.


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 14, 2012)

stonewall1350 said:


> Alrighty  I kind of read more on it. You CAN keep someone at gun point IF they surrender (not always advised...and if they try to run...let them and call the police IMMEDIATELY), but I certainly have little interest in holding someone down or searching that. That is a job for the clean up crew (police). If someone IS yelling threats and you CAN prepare yourself for defense. I would most likely get myself into a defensive posture (one hand in a foward position the other hand behind my back where I carry my weapon), and start telling him get back. I mean the situation certainly depends on the how the person is acting of course, but I refuse to lose at a confrontation on the street because losing is death.



Yeah look I agree with throwing up a hand as a defensive barrier if you have that room and reaching behind your back with the other. For one, it sends all sorts of visual cues and if done properly, is not going to be taken as a sign of overt aggression from your part. Any assault that happens against you after that point is certainly something you deal with as you have to. The telling the person to get back is another thing because it works for any witnesses around the place as well. 

Also, agreed that losing *can be* death on the streets. I also notice that, at no point have you said anything about "winning the fight"  The aim as I feel we are both saying is survival, not winning.


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 14, 2012)

The topic of appropriate force is being covered extensively in this thread so this link seems appropriate. I've also just posted it in another thread I had started a while back re: recommended readings. 

Scaling Force: Dynamic Decision Making Under Threat of Violence (Paperback) 

The following is brief outline:

Conflict and violence cover a broad range of behaviors, from  intimidation to murder, and require an equally broad range of responses.  A kind word will not resolve all situations, nor will wristlocks,  punches, or even a gun.Scaling Force introduces the full range of  options, from skillfully doing nothing to employing deadly force. You  will understand the limits of each type of force, when specific levels  may be appropriate, the circumstances under which you may have to apply  them, and the potential costs, legally and personally, of your decision.

As of now, this book is going for $13.92 (with free shipping) and is due to come out in 94 days so pre-order only at this stage. IMO it will be a worthwhile read for all martial artists

http://www.bookdepository.com/Scaling-Force-Rory-Miller/9781594392504


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## Christian Soldier (Jul 15, 2012)

I had a really well worded and explanotory post but my computer froze and deleted it and it's getting late now and I didn't want to write it again.

My basic concise point is this: Preparedness is better than unpreparedness.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 16, 2012)

Christian Soldier said:


> I had a really well worded and explanotory post but my computer froze and deleted it and it's getting late now and I didn't want to write it again.
> 
> My basic concise point is this: Preparedness is better than unpreparedness.


Obviously.

But theres more than one way You can be prepared.


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## Hanshi (Oct 9, 2012)

I've studied the traditional weapons as most of you have; but let's face it.  You can't really go around carrying a sword, chuks or bo so what are the alternatives?  I was trained to use weapons first in any dangerous encounter.  I do carry knives most of the time but what about air travel?  I was also taught "environmental" weapons.  I use a cane due to a disability, a plain oak staff cut to my size.  I get seated first on planes and look about as non-dangerous as one can get.  Plain plastic combs, credit (plastic) cards, 5" wood dowels, etc, can be effective and even lethal with just a bit of training.  Most importantly, it is WILL, not SKILL that won't let you down.


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## Supra Vijai (Oct 10, 2012)

Hanshi said:


> I've studied the traditional weapons as most of you have; but let's face it.  You can't really go around carrying a sword, chuks or bo so what are the alternatives?  I was trained to use weapons first in any dangerous encounter.  I do carry knives most of the time but what about air travel?  I was also taught "environmental" weapons.  I use a cane due to a disability, a plain oak staff cut to my size.  I get seated first on planes and look about as non-dangerous as one can get.  Plain plastic combs, credit (plastic) cards, 5" wood dowels, etc, can be effective and even lethal with just a bit of training.  Most importantly, it is WILL, not SKILL that won't let you down.



Within our organization we recently went through a workshop on improvised weapons using everyday items. I can't (with our local laws), justify carrying a 5" wood dowel around with me any more than I could a knife; certainly not a gun. 

With that in mind, we looked at things like water bottles, torches, magazines etc but the primary lesson of the day was that anything you carry is just a tool. YOU are the weapon. The moment you start putting all your faith in what you are carrying, you've lost half the battle because you are subconsciously training yourself that is where your power stems from.


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## ilhe4e12345 (Oct 10, 2012)

I have worked as a bouncer for many years and trained in a few different styles of self defense and I will tell you this....a weapon always escalates any situation (good or bad). I have never carried a knife on myself unless I am camping or hiking. I feel in a situation where you might need it, it has too much of a risk to be used against you (even if you are good).

Ill give you an example: The strip club I worked at, one of the new guys use to carry a small knife on his person (he was young, 20 and thought he was a real BA and that nobody could take him down) and one night a group of guys tried to follow one of the girls out to her car and he followed. Needless to say words were exchanged and a fight broke out. The knife was taken from him and cut his arm up pretty bad. Since then I will never carry a weapon on me due to the risk of it being used against me is too great. Now am i saying that everyone that has a knife is going end up getting cut by their own blade like this guy did? No, not at all. Im just saying from what i have seen the risk is too great no matter how good you are...and honestly if a situation like that you have to be ready to kill someone. Once a knife or weapon is pulled the whole situation changes...I have gotten into many fights because of idiots who think they can do whatever they want or had to much to drink...I have seen a guy try to use a small bar table as a weapon to fend off 4 bouncers at once only to end up being laughed at...but once a blade weapon or a gun is brought out, thats when people will get scared....and that leads to extreme violent actions more so then just a fist being thrown into someones face.....I have gotten hit in the face before and while it has made me angry I never got to "the edge", but the second I see a weapon......

As for a gun, I have a permit to carry and I do keep it on me but while im on the floor I keep it in my car unless I am told Its needed (the owner doesnt want us to have guns in the building even if we have a permit to carry) and I have had it on my person while working at my other job (work in a city late hours on days im not bouncing and its a ruff walk to where my car is parked) but thats a last ditch effort and I fully know that if i have to draw that, then i will have to kill someone. 

Just becareful....even the best in the world at security and armed combat can make a mistake or be put into a situation where their own weapon can and will be used against them...


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## celestial_dragon (Oct 15, 2012)

Self defense is described as the maximum amount of force necessary to defeat an opponent. I.E. if they are not armed and attack you, and you pull out your gun, shoot and kill them, then you are going to prison, because the amount of force you used was unnecessary.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 15, 2012)

celestial_dragon said:


> Self defense is described as the maximum amount of force necessary to defeat an opponent. I.E. if they are not armed and attack you, and you pull out your gun, shoot and kill them, then you are going to prison, because the amount of force you used was unnecessary.



I always thought Self Defence was described as Defending Yourself, without the term also defining within what bounds You do it. I must have been wrong.


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## Mz1 (Oct 27, 2012)

DETERRENT.  Knives are great. Guns are greater. 

No amount of fake training can prepare anyone for real life situations with weapons or vs. real weapons in a civilized society. That's why cops, with all of their training, also gets shot when they hesitate or miscalculate or get into big trouble with the public for shooting unarmed perps holding a black wallet in the dark. Most training involving weapons are play/fake training. You're only pretending to stab someone or pretending to shoot them. Even with live ammo, you're only shooting paper. 

All situations can totally be different. Not all are life or death. Law abiding citizens are more likely to deter crime by just showing their gun w/o ever having to shoot anyone. Not many toughguys would challenge someone with a gun in real life. When you carry weapons, you have options. If you want to go Rambo (drawing your gun) over every altercation, ie. a parking space dispute, then you're not normal. But the average citizen is normal and would & should worry about criminal prosecution, civil suits, etc. which is why there aren't an epidemic proportion of citizens with concealed carry permits going around shooting up their cities after at least 10+ years of liberal CCW permit policies throughout many, many States now.


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## Aiki Lee (Oct 27, 2012)

celestial_dragon said:


> Self defense is described as the maximum amount of force necessary to defeat an opponent. I.E. if they are not armed and attack you, and you pull out your gun, shoot and kill them, then you are going to prison, because the amount of force you used was unnecessary.



This is how you describe it, but not most laws. If someone is unarmed and they attack you and you are in reasonable fear for your life and shoot him, it will depend on local laws whether or not you face inprisonment. In Illinois you will likely face jail time; in Florida, probably not.
That's why you have to know what the law (and the jury) will consider reasonable force for self-defense.


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## Mz1 (Oct 27, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> This is how you describe it, but not most laws. If someone is unarmed and they attack you and you are in reasonable fear for your life and shoot him, it will depend on local laws whether or not you face inprisonment. In Illinois you will likely face jail time; in Florida, probably not.
> That's why you have to know what the law (and the jury) will consider reasonable force for self-defense.



Also, don't forget public outcry can affect current, existing laws. Like the case of Zimmerman shooting and killing Trevon in Florida, claiming that he was fearing for his life. The Police didn't arrest Zimmerman based on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" doctrine, but public outcries from Civil Rights leaders turned the tide against Zimmerman.


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## zilverkakashi (Mar 31, 2013)

uhmmm i have a small knife as well but i rarely bring it. i only choose to do so if i feel like it... our area is always very dangerous though... but most of the time i choose to bring a ballpen (common object) for self defense or a small tactical flashlight... a nail cutter would be useful as well but sometimes metal detectors in malls can detect it lol but i prefer a pen or a flashlight


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