# How to toughen up?



## Faith (Dec 20, 2019)

I've recently taken up taekwondo again. I've going from ITF to WT and I could keep my red belt from ITF in the classes.
But I have noticed myself that I am not that tough that I wish I should be with that grade. I flinch, I avoid getting hit and I feel that I perform very sloppy techniques than what is required to my grade.
By "tough", I don't mean like a badass like we see in the action movies or series, but like that I could take a hit or a kick, then go in for another one without withdrawing from the opponent.

This really start to make be a bit demotivated to continue. I really love martial art, but I feel I maybe expect to much by myself? 
Do someone of you have some tips how I can improve myself?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 20, 2019)

Since from art to art (and sometimes within arts), belts can mean different things..I have two questions before responding. 1) What kyu is red belt for you/how long have you been training? 2) Do you spar at your school/do these issues arise during sparring, "technique"/drills, or both?


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## drop bear (Dec 21, 2019)

Do tough things.


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## pdg (Dec 21, 2019)

Avoiding getting hit is a good plan whatever your grade/rank.

Ideally, you want to avoid getting hit without curling up in a corner though...

The only way to get used to it is to do it.


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## Gweilo (Dec 21, 2019)

To stop flinching will involve you confronting your fears, dont take this the wrong way, dont take the meaning of fear meaning you are weak, the flinch reaction is natural for 99% of martial artists and fighters, it is an instinct of virtually all animals.
To overcome the flinch is twofold, firstly lots of sparring, for fun or play sparring is not enough on its own, you need to pressure test or contact sparring regularly, along with this you need to master your breathing, breathing properly help to relax the mind, which in turn controls your emotions, at your stage of training you will have the inbuilt hes bigger than me, or faster than me, hes won his last 25 fights/competitions thoughts, or those am I good enough thoughts zooming around in your head, this creates tension in you, which results in a slightly different stance, then the technique is slightly wrong, which puts more doubt and more thoughts then more tension. So with proper sparring, breathing and time, the flinch response will stop all together. So try not to worry about it at the moment.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 21, 2019)

Unless the flinching and avoiding getting hit is detrimental to sparring, you don't need to do anything.  If it is, i believe its a experience thing, you eventually get used to it and stop flinching etc especially if make a conscious effort to stop doing it.  I cant give tips, but unless something is detrimental its not a problem.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 21, 2019)

Faith said:


> I've recently taken up taekwondo again. I've going from ITF to WT and I could keep my red belt from ITF in the classes.
> But I have noticed myself that I am not that tough that I wish I should be with that grade. I flinch, I avoid getting hit and I feel that I perform very sloppy techniques than what is required to my grade.
> By "tough", I don't mean like a badass like we see in the action movies or series, but like that I could take a hit or a kick, then go in for another one without withdrawing from the opponent.
> 
> ...



Welcome to MT mate . Awesome to hear you've started up in TKD again, good on ya!

Ah I feel you're expecting a bit much from yourself straight off the bat 

It will simply take time and exposure. The more you learn to relax while sparring and learn to be aware of how much anxiousness you hold, the more you can actively work with it, and let it inform you why you're flinching so much. But like it was said earlier, flinching is a built in response in humans, it's natural! But the more comfortable you get in sparring again and within your own movement, style and techniques, you'll find yourself relax and truly enjoy it more, and not be so reactive in a flinchy sorta way.

I remember when I took time off training and sparring altogether, and decided to enter some tournaments out of interest, I was flinching all over the shop! At first I wasn't thrilled with how much I did that, as I'd had years and years of sparring experience, but that time off did resensitise me a bit. Just had to get more sparring practice again.

Please don't let this demotivate you, everyone faces this sort of thing from time to time. In terms of technique for your grade, it may be worth chatting with your instructor, and if you'd feel more comfortable you can always start back at a lower grade that you feel comfortable with, and build yourself back up again slowly? No shame in that whatsoever.

And in terms of avoiding attacks etc, it doesn't mean you're weak or that you'll be no good ever (catastrophising), just an element in training to work on. Highly recommend bringing it up specifically with your instructor, they may design some drills to work on with you! A bit of conditioning work (getting hit) does a WORLD of wonders, being hit enough and it really just becomes a passing breeze, no big deal.

Let us know how you go


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## Faith (Dec 21, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Since from art to art (and sometimes within arts), belts can mean different things..I have two questions before responding. 1) What kyu is red belt for you/how long have you been training? 2) Do you spar at your school/do these issues arise during sparring, "technique"/drills, or both?



1) It's 1. kyu and I've been training for 10 years, but have some breaks on the "journey". 
2) We got some sparring and got class just for combat/sparring, but we do free-sparring very rare.



Gweilo said:


> To stop flinching will involve you confronting your fears, dont take this the wrong way, dont take the meaning of fear meaning you are weak, the flinch reaction is natural for 99% of martial artists and fighters, it is an instinct of virtually all animals.
> To overcome the flinch is twofold, firstly lots of sparring, for fun or play sparring is not enough on its own, you need to pressure test or contact sparring regularly, along with this you need to master your breathing, breathing properly help to relax the mind, which in turn controls your emotions, at your stage of training you will have the inbuilt hes bigger than me, or faster than me, hes won his last 25 fights/competitions thoughts, or those am I good enough thoughts zooming around in your head, this creates tension in you, which results in a slightly different stance, then the technique is slightly wrong, which puts more doubt and more thoughts then more tension. So with proper sparring, breathing and time, the flinch response will stop all together. So try not to worry about it at the moment.



Thanks for alot of tips! I am trying to get my girlfriend which also train taekwondo to sparr with me and to hit me slow and lightly, then increase the speed.


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## skribs (Dec 21, 2019)

Faith said:


> I've recently taken up taekwondo again. I've going from ITF to WT and I could keep my red belt from ITF in the classes.
> But I have noticed myself that I am not that tough that I wish I should be with that grade. I flinch, I avoid getting hit and I feel that I perform very sloppy techniques than what is required to my grade.
> By "tough", I don't mean like a badass like we see in the action movies or series, but like that I could take a hit or a kick, then go in for another one without withdrawing from the opponent.
> 
> ...



A lot of it is exposure.  The flinch response is because you're overwhelmed.  Either your brain is not sure how to react to the stimuli coming in so it freezes, or your fear of getting hit takes over.  Exposure can help with both.  Experience can help you see and process things faster, and when you're more confident in your responses your brain won't freeze as often.  Also, you learn which hits you can take, and that makes them less scary.  Over time, you learn what kind of hits won't even hurt, what kind of hits will cause pain and discomfort, but no injury, and what types of hits cause injury.  This will make it easier to take some of the lighter hits (because you know they won't hurt), and will make you more confident to push through the pain when you're not worried about being broken.

The two biggest things that can help with exposure are drills and *light *sparring.  You shouldn't be going full-out every class, that's a recipe for disaster.  And if people are going too hard in class, then talk to your Master and say "I think they're going too hard, can you ask them to lighten up?"  Drills and light sparring will get you used to seeing the punches and kicks come at you, and give your brain a chance to make those connections so it can respond faster and faster.

Drills can be as simple as someone kicking you and you kicking back at the same time, or they kick and you slide back and counter.  It can be a punch that you block.  Start off slow, and as you build up your timing, go faster and faster.  



Rat said:


> Unless the flinching and avoiding getting hit is detrimental to sparring, you don't need to do anything.  If it is, i believe its a experience thing, you eventually get used to it and stop flinching etc especially if make a conscious effort to stop doing it.  I cant give tips, but unless something is detrimental its not a problem.



I am going to go out on a limb and say you are the first person in history to give the advice that flinching is okay.  This is quite possibly the worst advice I have ever seen.  A martial artist needs to be aware of their surroundings and paying attention to the fight.  If you flinch during a fight, you open yourself up to *every possible attack*, because you can't block or avoid what you don't know is coming.  Eliminating the flinch is something we try to do as early as possible in someone's training, so they don't fall into this habit.


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## pdg (Dec 21, 2019)

Faith said:


> 1) It's 1. kyu and I've been training for 10 years, but have some breaks on the "journey".



If it's tkd then it's not a kyu at all - kyu is a Japanese term which technically has no place in a Korean art...

Most ITF use solid red for 2nd kup, and red with black stripe for 1st (followed by black 1st dan), but maybe yours was one of the different ones.



Faith said:


> ) We got some sparring and got class just for combat/sparring, but we do free-sparring very rare.



Not much you can really do about that, except make sure you attend every sparring session you can.



Faith said:


> I am trying to get my girlfriend to hit me.



Snipped for fun...

Forget her birthday - that should work


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 21, 2019)

Faith said:


> Do someone of you have some tips how I can improve myself?


- Find a huge rock (100 lb - 200 lb).
- Move that rock from one place to another place 20 times daily.
- Repeat this for 3 months.

After 3 months, you will feel "tough".


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## pdg (Dec 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - Find a huge rock (100 lb - 200 lb).
> - Move that rock from one place to another place 20 times daily.
> - Repeat this for 3 months.
> 
> After 3 months, you will feel "tough".



Not really going to do much about flinching when someone tries to hit you though...


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## yak sao (Dec 21, 2019)

I've been at martial arts for quite a while . When people come back to training who have been away from it for a while I recommend that they do not try to pick up where they left off.
 It's too much too soon and will most likely just end up causing you to become frustrated and quit or worse cause an injury.

 I recommend that they start out slow going back through the material from the beginning , not as a punishment but as a way to get the body readjusted to the training . 
 Second learning is much easier and usually doesn't take very long at all to put you right back up to where you were.


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## Tez3 (Dec 21, 2019)

Faith said:


> I avoid getting hit



That's generally considered a good thing. 
Flinching is an instinctive reaction which only repeated practice will get rid of. Take your time about getting back into the flow of training andhat to your instructor, always best to do that before asking strangers really, there is some good advice on here but also some not so good 'advice'.


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## drop bear (Dec 21, 2019)

Rat said:


> Unless the flinching and avoiding getting hit is detrimental to sparring, you don't need to do anything.  If it is, i believe its a experience thing, you eventually get used to it and stop flinching etc especially if make a conscious effort to stop doing it.  I cant give tips, but unless something is detrimental its not a problem.



Flinching and getting hit makes getting hit worse because you are not in a good structure.


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## drop bear (Dec 21, 2019)

In your case just sit in the pocket and trade for a bit until you don't feel overwhelmed there.

Adopt a policy that if they hit you you answer with a strike in return.

Once you are comfortable doing that. Then you can start being evasive again. And hopefully your evasive game will be a bit better.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 21, 2019)

Faith said:


> I flinch, I avoid getting hit ...


If someone knocked you down and killed you, at least you have to remember who did it to you so your soul can haunt him day and night for the rest of his life.


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## drop bear (Dec 21, 2019)

I will mention some MMA advice that applies here. Strikers going in to MMA may think that they need to focus on their takedown defense and keep the fight standing.

Where they really need to absorb all of the elements of grappling to take advantage of where the fight goes. And then if they choose to dictate the fight at a certain range they can.

So same sort of deal. If you are flinchy you will have more initial success hanging back and being a counter fighter but you will develop these holes people can exploit. 

If you push yourself to engage in meat grinder style fights you can still have that hang back counter style but you will also not get overwhelmed when the fight gets a bit pacey.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Dec 21, 2019)

Bro all you need is to be motivated and practice practice makes perfect you can practice your technique over and over again do the technique and see what your Mistake is and do it over again and in sparring dont flinch show them wzupp and your not weak don't tell your self that only weak are the one who quit me I've been a 3rd brown for 3 year almost 4 year but i never quit by june of next year ill take my 2nd degree brown test and my 1st on December of next year so tell to your self i can do this im not weak and i can pass and make it to red with black then black belt


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## dvcochran (Dec 21, 2019)

Faith said:


> I've recently taken up taekwondo again. I've going from ITF to WT and I could keep my red belt from ITF in the classes.
> But I have noticed myself that I am not that tough that I wish I should be with that grade. I flinch, I avoid getting hit and I feel that I perform very sloppy techniques than what is required to my grade.
> By "tough", I don't mean like a badass like we see in the action movies or series, but like that I could take a hit or a kick, then go in for another one without withdrawing from the opponent.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the forum faith. Here, you will get a lot of great advise and answers from all over the world. Some may or may not make a lot of sense, partly because of communication differences. Others because they simply do not make a lot of sense.
I believe your self reflection is right on track and healthy. You have worked out for some time and then took a break. You have a self image of 'you' at your peak performance. Now, you have started back and are wondering why your body is not doing what is used to do. That is a good thing and a great source of motivation. 
For a seasoned practitioner, I fully believe mirrors are one of the best partners for working technique. Hopefully your Dojang has plenty of them. You know what 'right' looks like. Study yourself in the mirror until you find that level of skill again. 
As for the flinching; you have heard enough to know it is a natural body response. You have to condition the mind just like you have to condition the body. The eyes and corresponding part of the brain has to get accustomed to seeing objects coming toward you with speed and power. The neurotransmitters and chemicals that trigger the emotion of fear can be better controlled by repeated exposure to whatever is causing the reaction. In others words; you need to spar or have controlled physical contact. A lot. There is no clear cut answer, but this is a bigger challenge for some people. And a beautiful thing about practicing a martial art. It avails a person to be able to have this exposure without being in real danger. Even when it feels like it. 
Talk to your instructor and the senior belts you confide in. Let them know this is a challenge for you. You should be put in the correct situations to help alleviate the 'fear' response. 
Martial Arts is very much about repetition. The steeper the time curve a person puts on improvement the longer it will seem to take. 
As a suggestion; would it be reasonable to think that it will take as long to get back to where you were as the break in practice was? Time is our ally.


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## Gweilo (Dec 22, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I fully believe mirrors are one of the best partners for working technique.


I agree with you, its vital IMO, for technique and posture.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 22, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - Find a huge rock (100 lb - 200 lb).
> - Move that rock from one place to another place 20 times daily.
> - Repeat this for 3 months.
> 
> After 3 months, you will feel "tough".


Not really related to the OP's question, John.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 22, 2019)

drop bear said:


> In your case just sit in the pocket and trade for a bit until you don't feel overwhelmed there.
> 
> Adopt a policy that if they hit you you answer with a strike in return.
> 
> Once you are comfortable doing that. Then you can start being evasive again. And hopefully your evasive game will be a bit better.


This. All 3 parts. This is how I train students to get past the common flinch and other reactions (with the small exception that they learn some light evasion while they're learning to work in the pocket, so they don't freeze in there).


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 22, 2019)

drop bear said:


> I will mention some MMA advice that applies here. Strikers going in to MMA may think that they need to focus on their takedown defense and keep the fight standing.
> 
> Where they really need to absorb all of the elements of grappling to take advantage of where the fight goes. And then if they choose to dictate the fight at a certain range they can.
> 
> ...


Great explanation of the process, DB.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 22, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Not really related to the OP's question, John.


If you think you are tough like a tiger, when a deer attack a tiger, that tiger will not turn it's head away. To develop that tiger spirit, you need to be super strong.

If you are a hammer, everybody will look like a nail to you.


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## jobo (Dec 22, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you think you are tough like a tiger, when a deer attack a tiger, that tiger will not turn it's head away. To develop that tiger spirit, you need to be super strong.
> 
> If you are a hammer, everybody will look like a nail to you.


 yes, i think you have succinctly and poetically summed up the psychological aspects of being '' tough''


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 22, 2019)

- "Tough" is you have courage to face a problem and not running away from it.
- "Flinch" is not willing to face a punch and you run away from that punch.

It's better to 

- train take down skill then to train counter to take down skill.
- let your opponent to "flinch" your punch than to let you to "flinch" your opponent's punch.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 22, 2019)

Faith said:


> 1) It's 1. kyu and I've been training for 10 years, but have some breaks on the "journey".
> 2) We got some sparring and got class just for combat/sparring, but we do free-sparring very rare.
> 
> 
> ...


So my normal advice would be to just get some more exposure with sparring, and that you'll get used to it. But considering the length of time, I don't think that'll work. I can think of three things to help. 

1) visit a school that does more and/or harder training sessions, and train there for a few months. 

2) spar with someone and (preferably with light contact) just exchange hits. Have them try to overwhelm you. It'll take a while, and will suck, but eventually you'll get used to it.

3) stand against a wall and have someone spend five minutes just throwing punch after punch at you (but not actually hitting you). A lot of the flinch is just the motion/speed, so if you can get used to that the flinching might decrease.


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## jobo (Dec 22, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> So my normal advice would be to just get some more exposure with sparring, and that you'll get used to it. But considering the length of time, I don't think that'll work. I can think of three things to help.
> 
> 1) visit a school that does more and/or harder training sessions, and train there for a few months.
> 
> ...


flinching is a learnt response in people who are used to getting hit, getting hit some more isn't the solution


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 22, 2019)

jobo said:


> flinching is a learnt response in people who are used to getting hit, getting hit some more isn't the solution


Personally I've found the opposite-when people are used to being hit (lightly), and defending themselves the flinching stops. It's when people are hit too hard and/or abused that flinching becomes the reaction. Or, in most cases from my experience, in people who don't get hit a lot and have this fear of it being much worse than it is.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 22, 2019)

drop bear said:


> In your case just sit in the pocket and trade for a bit until you don't feel overwhelmed there.
> 
> Adopt a policy that if they hit you you answer with a strike in return.
> 
> Once you are comfortable doing that. Then you can start being evasive again. And hopefully your evasive game will be a bit better.


Missed this post originally, just saw you beat me to it


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## geezer (Dec 22, 2019)

jobo said:


> flinching is a learnt response in people who are used to getting hit, getting hit some more isn't the solution



Flinching is a natural response that offers some protection. A twig flicks at your eyes, you instinctively blink hard and the reaction may save your vision. A unexpected blow comes your way and you instinctively throw your hands up and duck. The reaction avoids or blunts the impact. Unfortunately, this kind of response unchecked can be very detrimental in many activities such as baseball, football/soccer, ...and of course, the martial arts. But rather than totally suppressing the flinch reaction, a good start is learning to re-program it into a productive response. Like proper head movement and covering or counterpunching. Then as you gain success and confidence, you can also reduce the unproductive exaggerated _flinch response _and gradually replace it with a productive _fighting response_.

Learning to re-program or re-direct the flinch productively will gain quicker results, IMO, than mere suppression -i.e. just taking hits and trying to "learn not to flinch".


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## jobo (Dec 22, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Personally I've found the opposite-when people are used to being hit (lightly), and defending themselves the flinching stops. It's when people are hit too hard and/or abused that flinching becomes the reaction. Or, in most cases from my experience, in people who don't get hit a lot and have this fear of it being much worse than it is.


people who have never been hit dont flinch, why would they ?

ok i had a rescue dog a good few years ago, that flinched every time i move my hand in his rough direction, 

did i a) keep hitting him in the some what mistaken belief that he would get used to it and stop flinching
b) convince him my hand was not going to cause pain by not hitting him

clue it was B) though i did get bit quite a lot, i just convinced my self it didn't hurt and all was well after about 6 months


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## jobo (Dec 22, 2019)

geezer said:


> Flinching is a natural response that offers some protection. A twig flicks at your eyes, you instinctively blink hard and the reaction may save your vision. A unexpected blow comes your way and you instinctively throw your hands up and duck. The reaction avoids or blunts the impact. Unfortunately, this kind of response unchecked can be very detrimental in many activities such as baseball, football/soccer, ...and of course, the martial arts. But rather than totally suppressing the flinch reaction, a good start is learning to re-program it into a productive response. Like proper head movement and covering or counterpunching. Then as you gain success and confidence, you can also reduce the unproductive exaggerated _flinch response _and gradually replace it with a productive _fighting response_.
> 
> Learning to re-program or re-direct the flinch productively will gain quicker results, IMO, than mere suppression -i.e. just taking hits and trying to "learn not to flinch".


flinching is the exact opposite of a proactive reaction, you cant flinch and duck at the same time, as all your muscles tighten


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## geezer (Dec 22, 2019)

jobo said:


> ...people who have never been hit dont flinch, why would they ?



Yeah, everybody has a certain degree of an innate "flinch" reaction, but what you so accurately point out referencing your dog is how bad experiences and abuse can instill greatly exaggerated flinch responses.

One hard wired flinch response is the blink when something pokes at your eyes, another is throwing up your hands when something suddenly and unexpectedly pops out at you, another is when one hand touches something hot and gets burned, people will involuntarily push out with the other ...and of course, as you say, _tensing up _which makes purposeful head movement (like in boxing) impossible.

But tensing and ducking (crouching down) do happen together ...as does ultimately curling up into a fetal position. Honestly, Jobo, I don't think we disagree here... Because flinching is _reactive, _it will be opposite to a _proactive _response. True enough.


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## jobo (Dec 22, 2019)

geezer said:


> Yeah, everybody has a certain degree of an innate "flinch" reaction, but what you so accurately point out referencing your dog is how bad experiences and abuse can instill greatly exaggerated flinch responses.


 i don't think they have, move your hand quickly near a child or a dog that never been hit, they don't flinch, do it near one that been on the wrong end of a few good hiddings and they certainly do.

you could argue that its part of the flight, fight or freeze response, but if your not viewing it as a danger then a fear response is unlikely to occur and how do you learn that a fast moving hand is dangerous , ?


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## jobo (Dec 22, 2019)

geezer said:


> Yeah, everybody has a certain degree of an innate "flinch" reaction, but what you so accurately point out referencing your dog is how bad experiences and abuse can instill greatly exaggerated flinch responses.
> 
> One hard wired flinch response is the blink when something pokes at your eyes, another is throwing up your hands when something suddenly and unexpectedly pops out at you, another is when one hand touches something hot and gets burned, people will involuntarily push out with the other ...and of course, as you say, _tensing up _which makes purposeful head movement (like in boxing) impossible.
> 
> But tensing and ducking (crouching down) do happen together ...as does ultimately curling up into a fetal position. Honestly, Jobo, I don't think we disagree here...


no if you can duck or otherwise have control of your movements your not flinching (or if you are doing both, ducking wasnt a  decision), which is extreme tension, you may be able to get into a fetal position, but not quickly


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 22, 2019)

If you are good in your kick, when you see a punch coming toward your face, you can already see that your kick will land on your opponent's belly. If you see your opponent's punch is an opportunity, you will open your eyes big and also have a big smile on your face.

To have faith in your own MA skill and know how to take advantage on your opponent's punch is the key issue.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 22, 2019)

jobo said:


> people who have never been hit dont flinch, why would they ?
> 
> ok i had a rescue dog a good few years ago, that flinched every time i move my hand in his rough direction,
> 
> ...


People do flinch when they've never been hit, if they think they'll be about to be hit. Happens all the time.

But a large reaction like what you're describing, where a motion towards the person or animal makes them think they're about to be hit is an entirely different situation. My advice wasn't for someone dealing with abuse/ptsd, but nothing in the OP suggested that was the case here.


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## jobo (Dec 22, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> People do flinch when they've never been hit, if they think they'll be about to be hit. Happens all the time.
> 
> But a large reaction like what you're describing, where a motion towards the person or animal makes them think they're about to be hit is an entirely different situation. My advice wasn't for someone dealing with abuse/ptsd, but nothing in the OP suggested that was the case here.




HAPPENS ALL THE TIME

lets examine that claim then

tell me all about ALL these people who have not previously been hit who flinched with you as a witness, don't forget to tell me how you establish they had never previously been hit

 i didn't say he had been abused, i said he had previously been hit and your advice was to carry on being hit as if will magically cure the problem


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 22, 2019)

jobo said:


> HAPPENS ALL THE TIME
> 
> lets examine that claim then
> 
> tell me all about ALL these people who have not previously been hit who flinched with you as a witness, don't forget to tell me how you establish they had never previously been hit


It's tough to examine that claim without stating names. I can tell you that my fiancee had that issue and I'm fairly certain she was never hit, based on her report and her families reports, and my own observations. Two of my roomates who I trained, the same-they and their families denied ever engaging in corporal punishment, all lovely people whom I believe, and they denied ever being in a fight. Flinched when I started teaching them martial arts. People at dojos that I've trained in had flinching reaction, despite their own reports of not being hit and/or in a fight, although I can't give a number and that's obviously less reliable since I don't have any collateral for that..but I have no reason to disbelieve them.

I had my own flinching problem which got solved by fighting more as well.



> i didn't say he had been abused, i said he had previously been hit and your advice was to carry on being hit as if will magically cure the problem


 Sorry, that's my own assumption that he had been abused. For clarification, physical child abuse is defined as "Physical child abuse is physical injury inflicted upon the child with cruel and/or malicious intent. Physical abuse can be the result of punching, beating, kicking, biting, burning, shaking, or otherwise harming a child physically.", according to medicine.net, which I feel can be transferred to animals as a good definition for physical animal abuse. I personally would add in something about a position of power for the abuse if I were to generalize that statement (a 3 year old could hit a 10 year old meaning to hurt him, but I wouldn't consider that abuse for instance).

So I made an assumption that a dog that reacted to any hand coming near him as a possible hit and at least sometimes bit that hand had been physically injured with cruel/malicious intent. That intent may have not been there I suppose, he could have attacked someone who was just defending him/herself. The rest of my statement still stands.


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## geezer (Dec 22, 2019)

jobo said:


> i don't think they have, move your hand quickly near a child or a dog that never been hit, *they don't flinch...*



_Yes they most certainly do_ ...according to my own experience and what I've been able to find online just now. 

Apparently the "flinch" or "startle" reflex is innately present in people_ including infants_ and is also similarly present in animals other than humans. It's believed to have evolved as a survival trait. What varies is our reactivity to the stimuli that trigger flinch responses, our sensitivity and the degree to which we respond. And this can change with age and experience. Google it and see for yourself!


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## jobo (Dec 22, 2019)

geezer said:


> _Yes they most certainly do_ ...according to my own experience and what I've been able to find online just now.
> 
> Apparently the "flinch" or "startle" reflex is innately present in people_ including infants_ and is also similarly present in animals other than humans. It's believed to have evolved as a survival trait. What varies is our reactivity to the stimuli that trigger flinch responses, our sensitivity and the degree to which we respond. And this can change with age and experience. Google it and see for yourself!


flinching and being startled are not the same thing, you don't flinch if your startled, you eer jump

your not going to be startled by someone your sparring with trying to hit you, are you, its rather what's expected,, in fact its the anticipation of being hit that makes you flinch, your EXPECTING to get hit, your not startled at all


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## jobo (Dec 22, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> It's tough to examine that claim without stating names. I can tell you that my fiancee had that issue and I'm fairly certain she was never hit, based on her report and her families reports, and my own observations. Two of my roomates who I trained, the same-they and their families denied ever engaging in corporal punishment, all lovely people whom I believe, and they denied ever being in a fight. Flinched when I started teaching them martial arts. People at dojos that I've trained in had flinching reaction, despite their own reports of not being hit and/or in a fight, although I can't give a number and that's obviously less reliable since I don't have any collateral for that..but I have no reason to disbelieve them.
> 
> I had my own flinching problem which got solved by fighting more as well.
> 
> ...


so that's THREE, out of the world population of 7 billion, you said it HAPPENS ALL THE TIME ( so that would be EVERYONE) that quite a small number to base that on. how have you come to that conclusion.

yes the dog had been beaten black and blue, its the OP that i didn't say had been abused


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 22, 2019)

In regards to animals, anyone who use hunting dogs know how "twitchy" they are. And boy can they get jacked up when the hunt starts. Put yourself, especially your hand in the wrong spot and you Will get nipped. This is a very strong trait of predatory animals. I find it reasonable to believe some of this is still inherent in humans, especially one that has been in very adverse conditions (poor living conditions, battle, etc...). I can see abuse increasing the reaction but not inherently causing it.


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## jobo (Dec 22, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> In regards to animals, anyone who use hunting dogs know how "twitchy" they are. And boy can they get jacked up when the hunt starts. Put yourself, especially your hand in the wrong spot and you Will get nipped. This is a very strong trait of predatory animals. I find it reasonable to believe some of this is still inherent in humans, especially one that has been in very adverse conditions (poor living conditions, battle, etc...). I can see abuse increasing the reaction but not inherently causing it.


FLINCH not TWITCHY


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 22, 2019)

jobo said:


> so that's THREE, out of the world population of 7 billion, you said it HAPPENS ALL THE TIME ( so that would be EVERYONE) that quite a small number to base that on. how have you come to that conclusion.
> 
> yes the dog had been beaten black and blue, its the OP that i didn't say had been abused


You asked for the people with me as witness. Which by definition is less than 7 billion. 

On top of that, i said all the time, not everyone, two very different statements no matter how pedantic you choose to be to ignore the actual argument. 

On top of that, i specified it is more than 3 people, as it is also the people that I referenced but have nothing to go on but their word. 

On top of that, I did not even claim it was for all the people that I know, and it would be entirely off topic to go through and evaluate each person I know, how many of them have vs. Haven't been hit that I'm aware of and their flinch reaction. 

But, you do not care about any of this, you only wish to troll. @Faith , please ignore jobo's trolling of myself and others here and focus on the actual responses to the OP.


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## jobo (Dec 22, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> You asked for the people with me as witness. Which by definition is less than 7 billion.
> 
> On top of that, i said all the time, not everyone, two very different statements no matter how pedantic you choose to be to ignore the actual argument.
> 
> ...


all of the time means all points in time, that then obviously includes everyone.  unless of course they don't experience time. the only other meaning would be that it happens to these friends of yours continually without ever stopping and that would be silly


so if you didn't mean all of the time, what did you mean


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## _Simon_ (Dec 22, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> People do flinch when they've never been hit, if they think they'll be about to be hit. Happens all the time.
> 
> But a large reaction like what you're describing, where a motion towards the person or animal makes them think they're about to be hit is an entirely different situation. My advice wasn't for someone dealing with abuse/ptsd, but nothing in the OP suggested that was the case here.


Yeah, isn't the flinch an inbuilt biological survival mechanism, if something's flying towards your face that you'll flinch automatically as an inbuilt protective measure?

And no jobo I do not have the 14,000 peer reviewed scientific research papers to back this!!!!!!! XD


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## _Simon_ (Dec 22, 2019)

jobo said:


> and that would be silly



I have issue with this, please provide the evidence that the event you said prior would indeed be categorized as "silly", with evidence-based research and also some clear video evidence of its occurrence and a solid measuring reference tool to evaluate its exact level of silliness.

Maybe proof of what even constitutes something as being "silly" (with etymological backing) would be needed too.


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## Gweilo (Dec 23, 2019)

@jobo any scientific research can be found with a mere google search, but you have to search under psychology in perticular, reseach on the subconscious mind.
When we are born psycologically we are perfect (apart from the instinct of a dislike of loud noise) as a new born we are bombarded with affection, as we get older we start to be exposed to the world, we learn fire burns, falling can hurt, hopefully to look both ways to cross the road, the subconscious builds up a survival blue print a map or instruction manuel for survival, but it is like a jigsaw puzzle, the main central parts of the puzzle, fire burns etc remain, other parts of the puzzle/blueprint can be changed, you are correct in the response is learned, but it does not need to be personally experienced, so someone can learn to flinch, purely by seeing someone else receive a punch, this is common in people who witnessed violence, children who had lived with domestic violence for example. Flinching is part of the fight or flight response, and dealing with it is partly phisical training, but mostly mental training, this does include controlling anxiety through breath work. So you are partially right, but every individual comes through the flinch response in a different way, you dont need to get bit for six moths to help a dog, there are other, better, quicker methods, which I wont go into as this is a ma forum not a dog behaviour forum.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 23, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Flinching and getting hit makes getting hit worse because you are not in a good structure.



Fair enough, but there are many types of flinch or what somone could call a flinch.      its just generla advice if its not something negative dont bother trying to fix it.


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> I have issue with this, please provide the evidence that the event you said prior would indeed be categorized as "silly", with evidence-based research and also some clear video evidence of its occurrence and a solid measuring reference tool to evaluate its exact level of silliness.
> 
> Maybe proof of what even constitutes something as being "silly" (with etymological backing) would be needed too.


+silliness is a subjective judgement, if id  have said it was stupid, then you would indeed be correct in asking for it to be quantified


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah, isn't the flinch an inbuilt biological survival mechanism, if something's flying towards your face that you'll flinch automatically as an inbuilt protective measure?
> 
> And no jobo I do not have the 14,000 peer reviewed scientific research papers to back this!!!!!!! XD


flinching isn't a protective measure, no one has ever protected themselves from being hit by flinching

therefore it isnt  protective mechanism otherwise we wouldn't be discussing how to stop it, we would be discussing how to learn it

no need for a peer reviewed study for that one,


----------



## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> @jobo any scientific research can be found with a mere google search, but you have to search under psychology in perticular, reseach on the subconscious mind.
> When we are born psycologically we are perfect (apart from the instinct of a dislike of loud noise) as a new born we are bombarded with affection, as we get older we start to be exposed to the world, we learn fire burns, falling can hurt, hopefully to look both ways to cross the road, the subconscious builds up a survival blue print a map or instruction manuel for survival, but it is like a jigsaw puzzle, the main central parts of the puzzle, fire burns etc remain, other parts of the puzzle/blueprint can be changed, you are correct in the response is learned, but it does not need to be personally experienced, so someone can learn to flinch, purely by seeing someone else receive a punch, this is common in people who witnessed violence, children who had lived with domestic violence for example. Flinching is part of the fight or flight response, and dealing with it is partly phisical training, but mostly mental training, this does include controlling anxiety through breath work. So you are partially right, but every individual comes through the flinch response in a different way, you dont need to get bit for six moths to help a dog, there are other, better, quicker methods, which I wont go into as this is a ma forum not a dog behaviour forum.


have you seen any of these phycology papers ? or are you just sumising they exist

ive just google ''why do people flinch '' and read twenty articles all of which said previous trauma/ bad experience etc etc. so if you have indeed seen such a paper that contradicts all those it would be helpful if you pointed it out, at the moment i'm just wasting time confirming what i all ready know to be true just on your assurance that such exists

if your claim that you can learn to flinch from watching other get punched were univirsaly true, then any child that watched a boxing match would immediately start flinching, as that seems not to be the case, im treating that with a pinch of salt until the papers you claim exist come to light


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> flinching isn't a protective measure, no one has ever protected themselves from being hit by flinching
> 
> therefore it isnt  protective mechanism otherwise we wouldn't be discussing how to stop it, we would be discussing how to learn it
> 
> no need for a peer reviewed study for that one,


No one? So out of the 7 plus billion people, you know that none of them have ever been protected by flinching? That's a bold statement.


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> No one? So out of the 7 plus billion people, you know that none of them have ever been protected by flinching? That's a bold statement.


 well its self evidently true, a bit like saying  that non of the 7 billion people in this world can teleport to the moon

tensing your body and standing still does not afford any protection at all to stop you being hit, that why its not taught at boxing class, in fact the whole point of this thread is how to stop it as it doesn't.
if you want to make a case that it can be a good thing, feel free, i look forward to you deliberations


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## Gweilo (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> if your claim that you can learn to flinch from watching other get punched were univirsaly true, then any child that watched a boxing match would immediately start flinching, as that seems not to be the case, im treating that with a pinch of salt until the papers you claim exist come to light



The experience would have to be traumatic, like seeing somebody close get hurt, also to shoot your claim down in flames, we used to play a prank on people, when standing near them, we woukd draw our arm up quickly, as if to strike them, but brush our hand as though we were running our fingers through our hair, this made them flinch, we where only about 10 or 12 at the time, so it was a natural response, not a leant one.
In the spirit of recipricity, you spelt a couple of words wrong in the quoted post.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> well its self evidently true, a bit like saying  that non of the 7 billion people in this world can teleport to the moon
> 
> tensing your body and standing still does not afford any protection at all to stop you being hit, that why its not taught at boxing class, in fact the whole point of this thread is how to stop it as it doesn't.
> if you want to make a case that it can be a good thing, feel free, i look forward to you deliberations


So you're suggesting that there hasn't been a single case in the history of the world of someone being protected by flinching, even by accident? That's a far cry from self evident, and not remotely comparable to someone teleporting to the moon. 

Pretty sure the burden here is on you to prove your claim, not to make a claim that something has never happened and then state others have to prove that it has.

I'm leaving this thread now though, as I'm helping you bring it even farther off topic. My apologies to the OP.


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> So you're suggesting that there hasn't been a single case in the history of the world of someone being protected by flinching, even by accident? That's a far cry from self evident, and not remotely comparable to someone teleporting to the moon.
> 
> Pretty sure the burden here is on you to prove your claim, not to make a claim that something has never happened and then state others have to prove that it has.
> 
> I'm leaving this thread now though, as I'm helping you bring it even farther off topic. My apologies to the OP.


 that's not how the rules of debate, work, first you need to put forward a case that disagrees with my accerstion

so you need to say'' yes it can afford protection and then as your the one making a positive claim the burden of proof fall on you, , as every one who got out of third grade knows, its impossible to prove a negative, so the burden lies with the one who affirms, in this case that would be you

so lets take you  in baby steps as this is clearly new to you

make a contradictory statement, if your not actually disagreeing and your not really, then its pointless taking it further


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## Gweilo (Dec 23, 2019)

Startle response - Wikipedia


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## Gweilo (Dec 23, 2019)

FightingArts.com - Controlling The Flinch, The Blink And The Turn Away


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Startle response - Wikipedia


FLICHING not startling- or are you saying people only flinch if startled >
?


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## Gweilo (Dec 23, 2019)

Psych 101


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## Gweilo (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> FLICHING not startling- or are you saying people only flinch if startled >
> ?


Read it


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> FightingArts.com - Controlling The Flinch, The Blink And The Turn Away


you said there were ( peer reviewed) phycology papers that you lead me to believe you had read

in fact you told me to only believe phycology papers and your just posting general stuff that are not in anyway psychology papers.

So to be clear have you seen a PSYCHOLOGY paper that agrees with you or did you just make that up


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## Gweilo (Dec 23, 2019)

Flinch | Meaning of Flinch by Lexico


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## Gweilo (Dec 23, 2019)

Źzzzzzzzz


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Flinch | Meaning of Flinch by Lexico


 that does not appear to be a medical dictionary nor does it say its a '' startle response and anyway that should be clearly defined in these phycology papers you claim to have knowledge of


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Read it


you said phycology papers, why would i be fobbed off with wikipedia ?


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> you said phycology papers, why would i be fobbed off with wikipedia ?




Actually he said 'psychology' papers. Phycology is the scientific study of algae.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you think you are tough like a tiger, when a deer attack a tiger, that tiger will not turn it's head away. To develop that tiger spirit, you need to be super strong.
> 
> If you are a hammer, everybody will look like a nail to you.


I don't think a person has to be super strong, at all, to have that spirit. It can help if one _feels_ super strong, but the attacking spirit can be had without that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> flinching is a learnt response in people who are used to getting hit, getting hit some more isn't the solution


I think a lot of folks flinch without ever getting used to getting hit. It's a fairly typical natural reflex when something comes at the face. Not flinching is more often a learned response.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> people who have never been hit dont flinch, why would they ?
> 
> ok i had a rescue dog a good few years ago, that flinched every time i move my hand in his rough direction,
> 
> ...


What you're talking about is an adapted use of the flinch response. That this exists doesn't mean the flinch is always a learned response.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> all of the time means all points in time, that then obviously includes everyone.  unless of course they don't experience time. the only other meaning would be that it happens to these friends of yours continually without ever stopping and that would be silly
> 
> 
> so if you didn't mean all of the time, what did you mean


Now you're just ignoring the common idiom, redefining things to mean what you wish them to.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2019)

Rat said:


> Fair enough, but there are many types of flinch or what somone could call a flinch.      its just generla advice if its not something negative dont bother trying to fix it.


Flinching in fight training, actually, IS negative. For the reason DB mentioned (in the post you quoted) and other reasons.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> flinching isn't a protective measure, no one has ever protected themselves from being hit by flinching
> 
> therefore it isnt  protective mechanism otherwise we wouldn't be discussing how to stop it, we would be discussing how to learn it
> 
> no need for a peer reviewed study for that one,


Actually, it is. It may not be effective against a punch, but it is an instinctual attempt to protect the face (probably the eyes). It works all the time against flying insects, tree branches, etc. Our physical reflexes tend to be unspecialized that way.


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Now you're just ignoring the common idiom, redefining things to mean what you wish them to.


im not redefining it, its the common idiom that redefined, i'm going with the original and quite obviously the best definition, im not letting commoners drag me down to their level of idiom, because that would make me common as well


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> im not redefining it, its the common idiom that redefined, i'm going with the original and quite obviously the best definition, im not letting commoners drag me down to their level of idiom, because that would make me common as well


So, this time, you're just ignoring the usage in the dictionary (which contains both, by the way), and rather than use what you fully know was his meaning, you're just choosing the definition you wish to argue against (strawman). Thanks for clarifying that.


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, it is. It may not be effective against a punch, but it is an instinctual attempt to protect the face (probably the eyes). It works all the time against flying insects, tree branches, etc. Our physical reflexes tend to be unspecialized that way.


so hy do people flinch if there expecting to be hit from behind ? why do they flinch if there expecting to be kicked in the leg,


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> So, this time, you're just ignoring the usage in the dictionary (which contains both, by the way), and rather than use what you fully know was his meaning, you're just choosing the definition you wish to argue against (strawman). Thanks for clarifying that.


that's not a strawman argument, i chose the definition i wished to argue for, not against

in fact you saying its a strawman argument is itself a strawman argument


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## _Simon_ (Dec 23, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> Actually he said 'psychology' papers. Phycology is the scientific study of algae.


I say we start discussing algae. We may actually get somewhere!!


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## _Simon_ (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> flinching isn't a protective measure, no one has ever protected themselves from being hit by flinching
> 
> therefore it isnt  protective mechanism otherwise we wouldn't be discussing how to stop it, we would be discussing how to learn it
> 
> no need for a peer reviewed study for that one,


No one... has.... ever......

Okeedokee!

What do YOU think the purpose of flinching is then?


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> No one... has.... ever......
> 
> Okeedokee!
> 
> What do YOU think the purpose of flinching is then?


i don't think it has a purpose, as i said its learn behaviour, not all learnt behaviour has a purpose, biting finger nails for instance


----------



## _Simon_ (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> i don't think it has a purpose, as i said its learn behaviour, not all learnt behaviour has a purpose, biting finger nails for instance


Even biting finger nails has an underlying purpose or motive (anxiety, a feeling of being in control of at least something in one's life etc). Whether it actually achieves the goal is another thing.

To me flinching is a reflex which tries to protect vital areas of the body. It may not be successful, but it's the best the body has to deal with very fast dangerous stimuli coming at you (or even perceived dangerous stimuli). Just a biological instinct.


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## dvcochran (Dec 23, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think a person has to be super strong, at all, to have that spirit. It can help if one _feels_ super strong, but the attacking spirit can be had without that.


Agree. Most of what I do in class is not very  pretty anymore. But I hope my spirit shows through.


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> Even biting finger nails has an underlying purpose or motive (anxiety, a feeling of being in control of at least something in one's life etc). Whether it actually achieves the goal is another thing.
> 
> To me flinching is a reflex which tries to protect vital areas of the body. It may not be successful, but it's the best the body has to deal with very fast dangerous stimuli coming at you (or even perceived dangerous stimuli). Just a biological instinct.


self harm isn't a motivation or a purpose,

clear the best biological reaction is to move out of the way, 2 million years of evolution and your claiming the best available is to tense up, its not even the best for surviving the blow, which is to relax

ok if its a base level biological reaction why doesn't everyone do it ?


----------



## _Simon_ (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> self harm isn't a motivation or a purpose,
> 
> clear the best biological reaction is to move out of the way, 2 million years of evolution and your claiming the best available is to tense up, its not even the best for surviving the blow, which is to relax
> 
> ok if its a base level biological reaction why doesn't everyone do it ?



I suggest you then look into why people self harm. Of course, it doesn't seem to make sense, every instinct/habit seems to be to protect the body, but this goes beyond that to identity, being in such numbness and apathy and wanting to just feel something, anything. Also can be a self punishment, feeling like one deserves it.

There's alot more under the surface of things.

Tensing up works to protect vital organs in the body, hence why we tense up when being hit in the stomach. Pretty good reason I'd say...

As for your last point, no idea! I won't claim to know something I don't know. Perhaps it is an instinct that gains more ground and sensitivity the more you learn to navigate in the world of form. You learn to flinch better to better try and protect yourself (key word being try, and an instinctive reflex, it's the best it's got naturally).

Like a baby learning to walk, it can't do it straight off the bat, but it learns, and it's driven to naturally want to walk on two legs.


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## dvcochran (Dec 23, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> I say we start discussing algae. We may actually get somewhere!!


 I was surprised I actually knew what that word meant. We had a serious problem with it on a lake a few years ago and I learned way too much about algae.


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## jobo (Dec 23, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> I suggest you then look into why people self harm. Of course, it doesn't seem to make sense, every instinct/habit seems to be to protect the body, but this goes beyond that to identity, being in such numbness and apathy and wanting to just feel something, anything. Also can be a self punishment, feeling like one deserves it.
> 
> There's alot more under the surface of things.
> 
> ...


you seem to have inconvieninced  a lot of electrons, before coming to the rather obvious conclusion that you know nothing about the topic


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## _Simon_ (Dec 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> you seem to have inconvieninced  a lot of electrons, before coming to the rather obvious conclusion that you know nothing about the topic


... oh no...

I was referring to your last point there, as to why everyone doesn't do it. I don't know. Am actually willing to admit that as I have nothing at stake here. Just chatting.

I DIIIID presume we were just discussing and exchanging ideas, and not trying to claim the throne of who knows the most? I guess I've inconvenienced more electrons!


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## Gweilo (Dec 24, 2019)

jobo said:


> im not letting commoners drag me down to their level of idiom, because that would make me common as well



Pmsl, here we go jobo, I put the kids version here to help you understand, I thought there maybe too many big words in the proper version.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/stress-biology.html


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## jobo (Dec 24, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> ... oh no...
> 
> I was referring to your last point there, as to why everyone doesn't do it. I don't know. Am actually willing to admit that as I have nothing at stake here. Just chatting.
> 
> I DIIIID presume we were just discussing and exchanging ideas, and not trying to claim the throne of who knows the most? I guess I've inconvenienced more electrons!


 sorry mate, got caught up, we are just chatting


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## quasar44 (Jan 2, 2020)

Faith said:


> I've recently taken up taekwondo again. I've going from ITF to WT and I could keep my red belt from ITF in the classes.
> But I have noticed myself that I am not that tough that I wish I should be with that grade. I flinch, I avoid getting hit and I feel that I perform very sloppy techniques than what is required to my grade.
> By "tough", I don't mean like a badass like we see in the action movies or series, but like that I could take a hit or a kick, then go in for another one without withdrawing from the opponent.
> 
> ...


You mean TKD ???
You need to Broaden the brush


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## skribs (Jan 2, 2020)

quasar44 said:


> You mean TKD ???
> You need to Broaden the brush



Cross-training is great.  I don't see it as necessary yet for this guy, nor do I see it as a solution to the problem he presented.


----------



## drop bear (Jan 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> Cross-training is great.  I don't see it as necessary yet for this guy, nor do I see it as a solution to the problem he presented.



It would work.

If he did 6 months in kyukoshin for example it wouldn't really harm his tkd but he would train with a focus on toughness.


----------



## skribs (Jan 2, 2020)

drop bear said:


> It would work.
> 
> If he did 6 months in kyukoshin for example it wouldn't really harm his tkd but he would train with a focus on toughness.



He could also work on his toughness within TKD.  Your process has a lot of extra steps in it to solve the problem.


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## drop bear (Jan 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> He could also work on his toughness within TKD.  Your process has a lot of extra steps in it to solve the problem.



It has like two steps.

Join a kyuokashin school.

Get tougher.


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## skribs (Jan 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> It has like two steps.
> 
> Join a kyuokashin school.
> 
> Get tougher.



Maybe I should apologize to @jobo  for saying he oversimplified something in another thread...because wow you took the cake right there.


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## quasar44 (Jan 3, 2020)

Faith said:


> I've recently taken up taekwondo again. I've going from ITF to WT and I could keep my red belt from ITF in the classes.
> But I have noticed myself that I am not that tough that I wish I should be with that grade. I flinch, I avoid getting hit and I feel that I perform very sloppy techniques than what is required to my grade.
> By "tough", I don't mean like a badass like we see in the action movies or series, but like that I could take a hit or a kick, then go in for another one without withdrawing from the opponent.
> 
> ...



You can gradually inc the intensity of sparing


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## Buka (Jan 3, 2020)

You want to toughen up? Get married.

That'll teach ya.


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## isshinryuronin (Jan 3, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> To me flinching is a reflex which tries to protect vital areas of the body. It may not be successful, but it's the best the body has to deal with very fast dangerous stimuli coming at you (or even perceived dangerous stimuli). Just a biological instinct.


This topic of flinching would be a great research paper for a physio-psychologist.  That, I am not (though started out in college on that path) so will go with my own experience and thoughts - feel free to differ.  I agree with the above quote - flinching is an instinctive reaction to sudden stimuli (the body's default interpretation of this is "danger.")  This is not to say the flinch reaction cannot be consciously modified, though it takes a lot of repetition to override this instinct.

The  body must be taught certain stimuli are not dangerous.  As a beginner, I flinched every time my opponent twitched.  Eventually, I learned that a lot of that was not a real threat as the opponent was out of range/position/or just feinting.  With experience and repetition my body learned that flinching was not needed in those cases.  So, a lot of reasonable sparring can give the mind/body/spirit enough experience to override a good amount of flinching.  Flinching is a non-conditioned response - it's instinct.  With practice, much (*not all*) can be modified into a conditioned response of our choice.  The body can learn what stimuli to react and not react to.

An experienced fighter will not bite on most feints, staying calm and controlled without flinching or even batting an eye.  But if a spider happened to suddenly fall on his arm, chances are he will yell, jump up and wildly flail his arms.  His body had much experience with jabs, but not spiders.  This shows flinching is threat specific.  Each different kind threat-flinch response needs to be dealt with and modified individually - IMO.  Experience and repetition - there is no substitute - that's a fact.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 3, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> This topic of flinching would be a great research paper for a physio-psychologist.  That, I am not (though started out in college on that path) so will go with my own experience and thoughts - feel free to differ.  I agree with the above quote - flinching is an instinctive reaction to sudden stimuli (the body's default interpretation of this is "danger.")  This is not to say the flinch reaction cannot be consciously modified, though it takes a lot of repetition to override this instinct.
> 
> The  body must be taught certain stimuli are not dangerous.  As a beginner, I flinched every time my opponent twitched.  Eventually, I learned that a lot of that was not a real threat as the opponent was out of range/position/or just feinting.  With experience and repetition my body learned that flinching was not needed in those cases.  So, a lot of reasonable sparring can give the mind/body/spirit enough experience to override a good amount of flinching.  Flinching is a non-conditioned response - it's instinct.  With practice, much (*not all*) can be modified into a conditioned response of our choice.  The body can learn what stimuli to react and not react to.
> 
> An experienced fighter will not bite on most feints, staying calm and controlled without flinching or even batting an eye.  But if a spider happened to suddenly fall on his arm, chances are he will yell, jump up and wildly flail his arms.  His body had much experience with jabs, but not spiders.  This shows flinching is threat specific.  Each different kind threat-flinch response needs to be dealt with and modified individually - IMO.  Experience and repetition - there is no substitute - that's a fact.


Very well said!

And I would say that flinching is primarily an unconscious surfacing and reflexive thing. I've certainly flinched when a leaf had fallen off a tree in front of my face. CLEARLY not a severe danger (unless it gets caught in my eye haha) but the suddenness of it being very close to my face unanticipated and fast it seemed a PERCEIVED danger.


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## Tez3 (Jan 4, 2020)

@_Simon_ talking of self defence stuff and all that, I hope you are safe from the fires?


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## isshinryuronin (Jan 4, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> An experienced fighter will not bite on most feints, staying calm and controlled without flinching or even batting an eye. But if a spider happened to suddenly fall on his arm, chances are he will yell, jump up and wildly flail his arms. His body had much experience with jabs, but not spiders.


I'm going to amend my previous quote:  I plan to have as little experience with spiders as humanly possible.  I have no desire to eliminate my flinch response to arachnids, and if I did so desire, I doubt it would ever be successful.  And I'm OK with that.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 4, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> @_Simon_ talking of self defence stuff and all that, I hope you are safe from the fires?


Thanks so much Tez3. Look it's not great.. we're safe for the moment but it's been spreading so very rapidly, have never seen anything like this... my sister-in-law's husband's workplace burned down which isn't too far from here :s. We actually got some rain today which hopefully helped...

Thank you for thinking of us


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## dvcochran (Jan 4, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Thanks so much Tez3. Look it's not great.. we're safe for the moment but it's been spreading so very rapidly, have never seen anything like this... my sister-in-law's husband's workplace burned down which isn't too far from here :s. We actually got some rain today which hopefully helped...
> 
> Thank you for thinking of us


Saying a prayer for you guys tonight.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 4, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Saying a prayer for you guys tonight.


That means alot, thank you so much


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## Tez3 (Jan 5, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> That means alot, thank you so much



In the UK we are thinking of you, wishing there was something we could do to help. there's donation sites but we know there needs to be a miracle. Take care.


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## drop bear (Jan 5, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I'm going to amend my previous quote:  I plan to have as little experience with spiders as humanly possible.  I have no desire to eliminate my flinch response to arachnids, and if I did so desire, I doubt it would ever be successful.  And I'm OK with that.



I own one as a pet in an attempt to 
overcome mine.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 5, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> In the UK we are thinking of you, wishing there was something we could do to help. there's donation sites but we know there needs to be a miracle. Take care.


Thanks a bunch it means alot... just don't even know how they're tackling these infernos...

Seems alot of us have banded together, it's like when the need arises people just naturally reach out, it's quite touching to see! I ordered pizzas tonight and for every Aussie pizza (ham, cheese, tomato sauce base, bacon, egg) ordered the fellow chucks in a dollar of his own money.

But yes, we're gonna need something!


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## Tez3 (Jan 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I own one as a pet in an attempt to
> overcome mine.
> 
> View attachment 22647




Shouldn't that be a funnel web spider or a red back?


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## jobo (Jan 5, 2020)

quasar44 said:


> You can gradually inc the intensity of sparing


 well no you can't, sparing isn't a continuum from next to nothing to flat out. gentle '' sparing'' isn't sparring its playing tag. watch boxer sparring, its very hard to tell the difference between that and actual fighting, which is the point of it. its to practise fighting, if it does not simulate fighting its not doing its job


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## skribs (Jan 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> well no you can't, sparing isn't a continuum from next to nothing to flat out. gentle '' sparing'' isn't sparring its playing tag. watch boxer sparring, its very hard to tell the difference between that and actual fighting, which is the point of it. its to practise fighting, if it does not simulate fighting its not doing its job



If boxers went all out as you said, they would have so many concussions they wouldn't live to their first match.  Boxers certainly practice light.  Sparring is definitely a continuum.


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## jobo (Jan 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> If boxers went all out as you said, they would have so many concussions they wouldn't live to their first match.  Boxers certainly practice light.  Sparring is definitely a continuum.


i didnt say they went all out , did I ?

i said they went a lot harder than playing tag, which is what a lot of TMAs call sparing,  if you want to dance about doing little taps that's fine but don't kid yourself its doing anything but making you better at playing tag. the first time someone moves at full speed and wacks you , you will be wondering what happened, the real benefit of sparing is learning how not to get hit when someone actually tries to take your head off, if you cant do that then yes you will get a lot of concussions, but then you shouldn't be in a ring, possibly at all, definitely not with a fighter so much better than you if you cant mostly avoid getting hit


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## skribs (Jan 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> i didnt say they went all out , did I /
> 
> i said they went a lot harder than playing tag, which is what a lot of TMAs call sparing,  if you want to dance about doing little taps that's fine but don't kid yourself its doing anything but making you better at playing tag. the first time someone moves at full speed and wacks you , you will be wondering what happened



In most gyms, the guy with this kind of attitude is the guy nobody wants to spar against.


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## jobo (Jan 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> In most gyms, the guy with this kind of attitude is the guy nobody wants to spar against.


that rather depends on the gym/dojo and the type of people it attracts.

but i suspect your correct most tma will not want to spar at anything other than play fight intensity and so will shun a serious athlete, at a boxing gym, as long as there's parity in ability they will form a queue to fight you, as they are there to learn to fight. they can stop home and ''fight'' there little sister if its just play fighting


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## drop bear (Jan 5, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Shouldn't that be a funnel web spider or a red back?



Tarantula I think. I found it in the laundry.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I own one as a pet in an attempt to
> overcome mine.
> 
> View attachment 22647


At least you're feeding him right.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Tarantula I think. I found it in the laundry.


I'd have blown up the laundry room.


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## Tez3 (Jan 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Tarantula I think. I found it in the laundry.



One of the squadrons my husband was on had a spider as the sqn. badge so they kept a red kneed tarantula in the sqn. bar. it was actually quite friendly but when it had a hangover it would shoot the hairs from it's body at you, if you got them in the eye it would have been very nasty.


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## skribs (Jan 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> that rather depends on the gym/dojo and the type of people it attracts.
> 
> but i suspect your correct most tma will not want to spar at anything other than play fight intensity and so will shun a serious athlete, at a boxing gym, as long as there's parity in ability they will form a queue to fight you, as they are there to learn to fight. they can stop home and ''fight'' there little sister if its just play fighting



In any art I've trained, in any art I've talked to, the general response is that the guy who can't treat a sparring session like a sparring session and instead treats every sparring session like a fight, they're typically the guy nobody wants to spar with.

And no, I wasn't thinking of TMAs.  I was thinking of boxing, wrestling, and BJJ.


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## Tez3 (Jan 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> In any art I've trained, in any art I've talked to, the general response is that the guy who can't treat a sparring session like a sparring session and instead treats every sparring session like a fight, they're typically the guy nobody wants to spar with.




They're the ones that get the chief instructor to play with them. Invariably the instructor schools them by easily controlling them with just a modicum of pain, well actually quite a lot of pain.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 6, 2020)

Just reading through some old MA mags, and came across an article of a system that purposely uses the flinch, called the S.P.E.A.R. System. Talks about how when under stress/attack, the effects of adrenaline deteriorate your fine and complex skills, and attempting to access those before you've had a chance to gain control of yourself emotionally, psychologically and physically is largely futile. So it works to build off your natural reactions. Interesting anyway!


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## drop bear (Jan 7, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Just reading through some old MA mags, and came across an article of a system that purposely uses the flinch, called the S.P.E.A.R. System. Talks about how when under stress/attack, the effects of adrenaline deteriorate your fine and complex skills, and attempting to access those before you've had a chance to gain control of yourself emotionally, psychologically and physically is largely futile. So it works to build off your natural reactions. Interesting anyway!




Yeah. But RBSD guy kind of make a lot of stuff up. 

It would be as bad as saying for example crossfit movements are the core to self defense.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 7, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But RBSD guy kind of make a lot of stuff up.
> 
> It would be as bad as saying for example crossfit movements are the core to self defense.


Yeah fair enough, there alot of funky theories out there in the RBSD world . Thought it could have some sort of possible value, seems an interesting concept to take advantage of the natural flinch and train it propel you into attack


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## drop bear (Jan 7, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah fair enough, there alot of funky theories out there in the RBSD world . Thought it could have some sort of possible value, seems an interesting concept to take advantage of the natural flinch and train it propel you into attack



Ok. The issue is something works or it doesn't.

I get this sort of logic when people say how to defend a double leg using wing chun principles.

And it doesn't work like that. There are optimum methods you can use that create the best results. And that is because the dynamic has been tested to death.

Flinching super powers, using natural body movements, using scientific principles, using methods that the great warrior women of the Amazon's and all the other marketing ploys t hat get used to sell a product are not what we should be looking at when we are being critical of a method.

And while I am on a Jordan boroughs kick. This would be a good example.






When someone can dominate ben askren in wrestling like that. They have a method that works.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok. The issue is something works or it doesn't.
> 
> I get this sort of logic when people say how to defend a double leg using wing chun principles.
> 
> ...


The whole "natural movements" concept just gets over-used. It's sound for the first response to being surprised, where training simply can't be as thorough - we can't really train for "surprise" at the gym/dojo all that effectively. That's what Cato is for.

Anyway, the idea should be to develop some responses that start from common flinches, so you're building a path to those dependable moves that just work.


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## dvcochran (Jan 7, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Just reading through some old MA mags, and came across an article of a system that purposely uses the flinch, called the S.P.E.A.R. System. Talks about how when under stress/attack, the effects of adrenaline deteriorate your fine and complex skills, and attempting to access those before you've had a chance to gain control of yourself emotionally, psychologically and physically is largely futile. So it works to build off your natural reactions. Interesting anyway!


Just curious, how old are the books?


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## _Simon_ (Jan 7, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Just curious, how old are the books?


Haha, this mag is 14 years old now . Was a regular MA magazine in Aus that was published monthly I think, but recently have been liquidated and no longer publish them. A shame!


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## Faith (Jan 30, 2020)

Woah! I didn't believe that many answers! Thanks for many good advices and discussions!


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## dvcochran (Jan 31, 2020)

I am home from the hospital and feeling gooooood right now.


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## advfhorn (Feb 6, 2020)

Eye to eye contact of your partner does amazing things.  You don't need to look at your target you know where it is .... keeping eye to eye contact keeps your head up (hopefully your shoulders back) which in itself shows self confidence.  Also always go slower than your partner (lower or higher belt), just tell them you want to focus on technique.  A good partner will adjust.  I have a few partners I say before each rei "DO NOT HURT ME" ... my husband is one of them


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