# What is "Zen" ??



## Lisa (Jun 3, 2007)

I have no idea what "zen" is or what one does to practice it.  But recently with new "Koans" being posted, I have become curious.  Can anyone enlighten me on the subject?


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 3, 2007)

"Clear mind is like the full moon in the sky, sometimes clouds come and cover it, but the moon shines brightly. Clouds come, behind is clear mind. Clouds go away, and there is only clear mind. Thinking comes and goes, comes and goes-do not be attached, to the coming or the going."

-78th Patriarch Zen Master Seung Sahn


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 3, 2007)

Trying to explain Zen, is akin to asking someone to describe the taste of water. ...


----------



## Sukerkin (Jun 3, 2007)

I'd not read that before, *Blotan*, thank you for posting it.  

It's actually not a bad distillation of the concept of Zen (literally "forwards" or "ahead") - which is just as well given the apparent 'seniority' of its source .


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 3, 2007)

Wiki says this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen


Personally, I agree with Blotan.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jun 3, 2007)

Wisdom that is unexplainable but can be found by searching the mind sometimes while trying to answere questions that have no set answere


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 3, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Wiki says this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen
> 
> 
> Personally, I agree with Blotan.


 
I find the more I read about Zen, the fewer "AH-HA!" moments I have. We tend to want explinations more than experience eh?


----------



## Lisa (Jun 4, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Trying to explain Zen, is akin to asking someone to describe the taste of water. ...



Refreshing? 



Bob Hubbard said:


> Wiki says this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen
> 
> 
> Personally, I agree with Blotan.



Thanks Bob.



tshadowchaser said:


> Wisdom that is unexplainable but can be found by searching the mind sometimes while trying to answere questions that have no set answere



Confusing...hmmm.  I guess I like to deal in absolutes too much to be able to "get" zen.



Blotan Hunka said:


> I find the more I read about Zen, the fewer "AH-HA!" moments I have. We tend to want explinations more than experience eh?



Yes and no.  I want explanations so I can formulate how to get the experience?  Make sense?  Again, maybe my mind is just wanting absolutes.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 4, 2007)

Zen Buddhism comes directly form Chan Buddhism of China which is a combination of Mah&#257;y&#257;na Buddhism, Taoism and Confucian beliefs. This is by the way a major over simplification.

You can find a pretty good explanation here

Simple Zen: A Guide to Living Moment by Moment 
By C. Alexander, Ph.D. Simpkins


----------



## Monadnock (Jun 4, 2007)

Yes, check out the Wiki link Bob posted. I found the definitions there easy to understand.

Note that the core of Zen practice is zazen, sitting meditation. Koans, primarily connected to the Rinza school, are used to help the student to a better understanding of the nature of the mind and themselves. In many cases, there is no "correct" answer to a koan.

Look up phrases like the Zen Beginner's Mind for some more insight on what Zen is trying to accomplish.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 4, 2007)

Lisa said:


> Yes and no. I want explanations so I can formulate how to get the experience? Make sense? Again, maybe my mind is just wanting absolutes.


 
Nothing wrong with that, just remember that reading about Zen is not Zen. Only living it is.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2007)

Zen is one of those things that you can write entire books on, yet never really know.

But, if you really want to hurt your brain (I say this because it hurt mine) read some books by Alan Watts.




Qingfu - The living meaning of Zen is beyond all notions. To realize it in a phrase is completely contrary to the subtle essence; we cannot avoid using words as expedients, though, but this has limitations. Needless to say, of course, random talk is useless. Nonetheless, the matter is not one-sided, so we temporarily set forth a path in the way of teaching, to deal with people.


----------



## Lisa (Jun 4, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Qingfu - The living meaning of Zen is beyond all notions. To realize it in a phrase is completely contrary to the subtle essence; we cannot avoid using words as expedients, though, but this has limitations. Needless to say, of course, random talk is useless. Nonetheless, the matter is not one-sided, so we temporarily set forth a path in the way of teaching, to deal with people.



So I read this quote and what is the first thing that pops into my mind:

"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"

Now, please don't be thinking that I believe anyone who practices Zazen or zen is an idiot.  That is not what I mean.

Basically what I am getting from this conversation is that I can read all the words I want to and they really mean nothing.  I must find it in myself to be able to understand what it means for me.  Meaning, that it is a personal journey that no one can find for me.  I can only find it for myself, if I truly want to.  The first thing I must have is an open mind and let go of the absolutes.

Close?  or no cigar?


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 4, 2007)

Lisa said:


> So I read this quote and what is the first thing that pops into my mind:
> 
> "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"
> 
> ...


 
Sit.

Breathe.

Let thoughts come and go without attaching to them or worrying about stopping them.

Koans, books, words...theyre all a finger pointing the way. They have theyre use, but are not to be confused with the way. The only method to experience it is to walk it.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2007)

What does Blue sound like?
What does joy taste like?
What does air feel like?


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 4, 2007)

Speaking of fingers, and related to Lisas question:

Whenever anyone asked him about Zen, the great master Gutei would quietly raise one finger into the air.

A boy in the village began to imitate this behavior. Whenever he heard people talking about Gutei&#8217;s teachings, he would interrupt the discussion and raise his finger.

Gutei heard about the boy&#8217;s mischief. When he saw him in the street, he seized him and cut off his finger. The boy cried and began to run off, but Gutei called out to him.

When the boy turned to look, Gutei raised his finger into the air. At that moment the boy became enlightened.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 4, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> What does Blue sound like?
> What does joy taste like?
> What does air feel like?


 
This is only a part of Zen practices there are other aspects outside of the koan and a whole lot of history too


----------



## Monadnock (Jun 4, 2007)

So, as we narrow our definition of Zen, what is its relavence in the martial arts? How can it be beneficial to your practice?

If Zen points to the Way, and the Way is in everything, then isn't it inseperable form the Martial Arts? Whether or not you acknowledge it, or actively incorporate it into your classes, it is there then, isn't it?


----------



## Lisa (Jun 4, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> What does Blue sound like?
> What does joy taste like?
> What does air feel like?



Children playing
Muffins
invigorating

 ...but I guess you didn't mean that literally now did ya? 



Blotan Hunka said:


> Speaking of fingers, and related to Lisas question:
> 
> Whenever anyone asked him about Zen, the great master Gutei would quietly raise one finger into the air.
> 
> ...



ooooookay.....



Xue Sheng said:


> This is only a part of Zen practices there are other aspects outside of the koan and a whole lot of history too



Maybe In need to start with the history first then and work my way from there.



Blotan Hunka said:


> Sit.
> 
> Breathe.
> 
> ...



And this is where I have trouble.  Maybe I am too literal of a person.  Maybe I need substance and a solution to come to that is solid and can be proven.  



Monadnock said:


> So, as we narrow our definition of Zen, what is its relavence in the martial arts? How can it be beneficial to your practice?
> 
> If Zen points to the Way, and the Way is in everything, then isn't it inseperable form the Martial Arts? Whether or not you acknowledge it, or actively incorporate it into your classes, it is there then, isn't it?



Oh, sure, I am still trying to understand what it is, now you go and be all deeper meaning on me...thanks~!


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2007)

Frequently Asked Questions On Zen


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2007)

From the alt.zen faq.

*What is Zen? (the real question)*
This question basically asks "What is the essence of Zen?". It appears in various guises throughout Zen literature, from "What is the meaning of Bodhidharma's coming from the West?" to "Have you eaten yet?". The question cuts right to the heart of the matter and can only be answered by you. Perhaps the best answer is "practice".

*Why do people post such nonsense to this group?*
One of the central points of Zen is intuitive understanding. As a result, words and sentences have no fixed meaning, and logic is often irrelevant. Words have meaning only in relation to who is using them, who they are talking to, and what situation they are used in. Some postings are indeed nonsense; other postings appear to be nonsense at first but this is because the meaning is all between the lines. Zen and poetry have gone hand in hand for centuries.


----------



## Lisa (Jun 4, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Frequently Asked Questions On Zen



Awesome!  Thanks Bob!


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2007)

If you lock 5 Zen masters in a room, I expect the conversation to sound incredibly random to the casual listener. To one who sees the between though, it can be quite thought provoking. It's a religion, it's not. It's a way of life, yet it is not. It has an old and complex history, with many incredible minds involved, yet is one of those concepts that is hard to nail down.  You could say it's the search for inner knowledge and understanding. You'll be right and wrong at the same time.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2007)

I stickied 2 Zen FAQ's here which have some good suggested reading lists, and Xue added to them to.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 4, 2007)

Lisa said:


> And this is where I have trouble. Maybe I am too literal of a person. Maybe I need substance and a solution to come to that is solid and can be proven.


 
And there you fall into the trap of "understanding". Understanding is not experience, its applying "brain" to something. Like the moon being covered by clouds. Your "solid solution" would just be more clouds. Reading about zen is like describing the taste of water. "Refreshing" explains nothing of waters essence. Describe "refreshing". You just have to taste it. Words can help provide a framework, but unless you experience it. They mean nothing.

Bodhidharma described Zen as:
"Not reliant on the written word,
A special transmission separate from the scriptures;
Direct pointing at one's mind,
Seeing one's nature, becoming a Buddha."​
And The parable of Gutei's finger is an old Zen nugget. One of the many ways to look at it is to think of the finger as representing a persons understanding of Zen. Mimicking someone elses understanding of it is not true enlightenment.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2007)

Lisa,
  To put it another way, Zen is taking the perfect shot. You can't describe it, it just is.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 4, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Speaking of fingers, and related to Lisas question:
> 
> Whenever anyone asked him about Zen, the great master Gutei would quietly raise one finger into the air.
> 
> ...




As in there is no benefit in walking the path of another. The child raising his finger has no meaning. The child must not just copy but must understand or be enlightened and then the path will be clear(er).


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2007)

It is also not mentioned which finger is being raised.


----------



## Lisa (Jun 4, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Lisa,
> To put it another way, Zen is taking the perfect shot. You can't describe it, it just is.



Now your talking in a speak I understand. 

About that perfect shot.

I can get caught up in the "physical" that, although are important, (placement of elbow, cheek, feet, perfect trigger pull, follow through, etc) are not the only thing that makes a perfect shot.  We jokingly call it "being in the zone" where our mind and body are both relaxed.  It isn't a "physical" thing, it just is.  My problem is that I can find it, but I can't seem to stay there.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 4, 2007)

Lisa said:


> My problem is that I can find it, but I can't seem to stay there.


 
Meditation.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2007)

Some meditate by walkling, others fishing, some by sitting quietly.

Lisa does it by shooting things.  :rofl:

*makes note not to be within 2 miles of Lisa when she's meditating....*


----------



## kaizasosei (Jun 4, 2007)

i think that the meaning of zen is a mystery however i would like to speculate that zen is something like when the highest wisdom and concentration is instantaneously focussed into action.
 so although it often seems very static, actually i think zen strives for action.  
i think that as a religion or philosophy, like any teaching, zen will itself take on certain qualities of the practitioner.

  basically, zen is associated with detatchment and a sort of otherworldliness.  that is why zen was so important for warriors in japan because it promoted a stable unshakeable mindset.  the attitude of zen i believe also implies taking responsibility for ones actions while becoming free of any restraints. 
also zen is very physical..zazen is kind of workout for the feet,legs belly and back actually whole body and therefore whole physical/mental being.  zen could be practiced through flowerarranging, archery swordsmanship or even handtohand battle.  zen is the art of life and the art of death in every second.
the mind of zen is like the mind of the whole world all squeezed into a teacup held by a restless child. 
i have also heard that the enlightment through zenphilosophy can be compared to a kind of controlled insanity.  but actually i believe, amongst all things and probably others, zen can be seen as the cultivation of true sanity.

j


----------



## Lisa (Jun 4, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Some meditate by walkling, others fishing, some by sitting quietly.
> 
> Lisa does it by shooting things.  :rofl:
> 
> *makes note not to be within 2 miles of Lisa when she's meditating....*



You funny. 

Didn't you read up thread where I said, I can find it but can't stay there, lol.  I shoot one 10 and I am "cool" I shoot two in a row and I am like "wow" I shoot three in a row and I think "whoopy!!, okay don't get too excited, concentrate"  *bang...oops 8 

Anyways, back to the topic at hand.  Zen, then, is a state of mind, not a thing, its like being in "the zone" where everything comes together.



Blotan Hunka said:


> Meditation.



Yeah, I have been working on that.  Starting slowly.  At night, I have found a comfortable position and started concentrating on my breathing and counting backwards from 100, until I fall asleep. Never made it to zero yet and last night, I barely remember the 90's.


----------



## Steel Tiger (Jun 4, 2007)

Lisa said:


> You funny.
> 
> Didn't you read up thread where I said, I can find it but can't stay there, lol. I shoot one 10 and I am "cool" I shoot two in a row and I am like "wow" I shoot three in a row and I think "whoopy!!, okay don't get too excited, concentrate" *bang...oops 8
> 
> ...


 
You should try an old daoist bagua meditation position.  You lay on the floor in a position as though walking the circle.  That is, your'e on your side with the lower arm extended and the upper bent.  The legs are the opposite.  It is supposed to have been developed when bagua practioners were walking the circle and fell into a meditative trance and simply collapsed where they were.  Its very comfortable.  Careful not to fall asleep.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2007)

You want Zen (Chan) Buddhism - these are both pretty widely studied in Zen

The Diamond Sutra
http://community.palouse.net/lotus/diamondsutra.htm

THE GREAT HEART OF WISDOM SUTRA 
http://www.pvtnetworks.net/~kmcguire/heart.html


----------



## Kacey (Jun 5, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> You want Zen (Chan) Buddhism - these are both pretty widely studied in Zen
> 
> The Diamond Sutra
> http://community.palouse.net/lotus/diamondsutra.htm
> ...



Thanks, Xue - I'll look at these when I get home; I think they're gonna be a bit much to read during my lunch break... especially since it's half over!


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jun 6, 2007)

Lisa said:


> *I have no idea what "zen" is or what one does to practice it. *But recently with new "Koans" being posted, I have become curious. *Can anyone enlighten me on the subject*?


 
no


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 6, 2007)

BlackCatBonz said:


> no


 

LOL! Thats correct!


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jul 10, 2007)

Interesting quote.



> Since Zen was first transmitted, it has never taught that men should seek for learning or form concepts. "Studying the Way" is just a figure of speech. It is a method of arousing people&#8217;s interest in the early stages of their development. In fact, the Way is not something which can be studied. Study leads to the retention of concepts and so the Way is entirely misunderstood.


----------



## Obliquity (Jul 11, 2007)

Lisa said:


> Zen, then, is a state of mind


 

Or, no mind.

Hope that helps. Or not.


----------

