# Does your jkd allow sparring?



## Glycerine0160 (Jun 5, 2008)

My JKD is very privatized. My teacher is a high ranking at the sheriff's department in central jersey. He does this as a side project, more for enjoyment purposes than a financial set up.  They even play music ranging from the clash to black sabbath, just to give you an idea of how private feels and the price is great. We dont' spar though. Do most jkd schools do sparring or is it something generally not seen worth while?


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## Empty Hands (Jun 5, 2008)

If you aren't sparring you aren't learning a Martial Art.  Sorry.


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## arnisador (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes, starting from very controlled semi-sparring (e.g., you can use your left hand only) to what's basically MMA with weapons and multiple opponents occasionally thrown in.


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## Glycerine0160 (Jun 5, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> If you aren't sparring you aren't learning a Martial Art. Sorry.


 


Yeah I kind of feel that way. I try messing around with kids in work, last time it ended up with me accidentally hitting a kid in the face. lol what did he expect?

I would like to bring it up to my teacher (sefou?) but I don't want to insult him. I mean it's only 65 a month, and I can go up to five days a week (which I generally can't make them all cause of work) if I choose to.  I had to sign for a year, but it also included 2 private lessons (still saving them)   hmm..maybe i could spar using them?

the wording is important though if I do ask him. he's a really cool guy.


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## GradualProgression (Jun 6, 2008)

I truly don't understand how one teaches JKD without sparring. Part of Bruce Lee's philosophy was that there was no way to learn broken rthym and how a fight actualy plays out without putting it into practice by sparring. He sparred at least 1 day a week himself.

I cannot fathom learning JKD especially with no sparring. 

Bruce Lee preached sparring over Kata.


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## Glycerine0160 (Jun 6, 2008)

Question on how sparring works.

How effortful does it really happen? When you throw a punch, how hard do you hit?



I'm going to ask my instructor why we dont spar. I have a feeling it's a liability issue. If I sign a release form, wouldn't that be sufficient? (although, i've heard situations involving liability that contracts don't fully protect an individual.)


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## arnisador (Jun 7, 2008)

How hard? It varies. Beginners start at low strength, but you can work your up to regular sparring.


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## Glycerine0160 (Jun 7, 2008)

My sifu had a seminar to attend but had one of the older more experienced guys take over.

When we were putting on our shoes, I asked him about why we don't spar there.  He said he had asked sifu before, and surely thought I should tell him. With enough interest in sparring, we should be able to. 

Another question, I asked another kid in there if he would be willing to want to spar as to get another vote in the matter. He said yeah and later on when class was over I was asking him on how sparring works. He used to box, and he said the only thing with sparring is he is afraid it will be more punches than anything else because intercepting fists isn't practical.

This really boils down to another subject we discussed why people in the UFC don't use jkd and intercepting fists. Him and this ju juitsu guy said it was cause it's not practical. Well, if it isn't practical in UFC, why would it be anymore practical in an enraged street fight?

Which obviously leads me to believe they arn't right. It's practical if you are good at intercepting fists, and the only way to get better is to spar. 

Correct?


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## mook jong man (Jun 8, 2008)

If you like the place and want to stay there maybe you could train with a friend at your house or their house. My friend and i were wing chun guys but we loved to put the head gear on and gloves on and spar semi contact also put in a mouthguard and leg pads on. make sure you train with somebody you can trust not to lose it and punch your head in. Just because you got head gear on doesnt mean you can punch as hard as you can, make sure the head gear has a face guard. Expect to get hit a lot because your peripheral vision is cut down , you wont stop many low kicks either for the same reason. You will lose sensitivity in your arms because of the boxing gloves so you wont be doing much fancy trapping, for us wing chun guys its hard to do centerline punching with big fat gloves on, make sure you both agree to a certain level of contact. Remember have control , if you hurt him he wont train with you again. When you get hit it teaches you not to go into shock when you really do get hit by some one. But above all enjoy your self, its great fun.


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## Errant108 (Jun 8, 2008)

I think you're attaching way too much to the concept of "intercepting fists".  To the point where I don't even get what you're talking about.  I've seen plenty of MMA bouts where fighters throw interceptions and follow up on it.  It's a very valid tactic that truthfully, many systems outside of JKD use.


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## Glycerine0160 (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm talking about things like gunting, destruction moves, etc. 


Mook, you say it's difficult in sparring to use these intercepting moves?
I'm not quite understand the whole matter then. If they are difficult in sparring, they will only be more difficult in a real life situation.


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## Errant108 (Jun 8, 2008)

Gunting & the like aren't "intercepting fists".

As for using them in sparring,  MMA or otherwise, if your instructor doesn't have you sparring at tall, then you will never learn how to use any of the things you're learning in sparring.  Like everyone else already said, sparring is essential to JKD.


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## Shawn (Jun 8, 2008)

You do see "interceptions" in MMA contests - regardless of if the fighters train them.  A few UFC's back one of the undercard fights ended with a cutting straight right "intercepting" and cutting through an incoming left.  The gloves offer some protection against intercepting gunts, and the fighters themselves are generally highly conditioned and fairly resistant to pain.  When a fighter stops an incoming punch with a kick to the leg or body that is the JKD theory (or fencing theory) of the stop hit in action.


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## Nolerama (Jun 9, 2008)

Glycerine0160 said:


> I'm talking about things like gunting, destruction moves, etc.
> 
> 
> Mook, you say it's difficult in sparring to use these intercepting moves?
> I'm not quite understand the whole matter then. If they are difficult in sparring, they will only be more difficult in a real life situation.




I've applied gunting in an SD situation. Although I'd never bank on this 100%, but a lot of people throw sloppy "hay maker" punches, and gunting through that into an uppercut/push/more blocking/etc is certainly viable. It's happened to me a few times before, gunting is pretty effective in those situations.

Destructions, to me, should be reserved for an escalation in force. A responding officer or a jury will only see a dislocated joint, crushed base of the skull, etc and not see the situation in a completely favorable light for you. In other words, if there's ambulance ride-worthy injuries for the losing party, the winning party will still get tossed in the back of a patrol car regardless of who started the altercation. Destructions should be used very wisely.

Anyway, sparring is important. You get a sense of timing, realize when moments of opportunity arise, understand range, etc. You become a better fighter, instead of just being a better student.

Play with what works for you. You'll find that out once you start sparring, although I don't think applying destructions to a sparring partner would be useful.


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## mook jong man (Jun 9, 2008)

I can only speak from a Wing Chun standpoint we feel the opponents intentions through our arms and when i have gloves on i feel like i am a bit blind. In a real situation you wont have the equipment on and you will be using the art as it was meant to be used with no padding. I'm sorry i dont know anything about gunting i did a little bit of training under Master Raymond Floro (kali illustrissimo) i asked him about it once he didnt seem to be a big fan of it.


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## Skpotamus (Jun 9, 2008)

I've only dabbled in JKD, so take this anecdotal story for what it is....  One of my buddies was training at a BJJ school that also taught JKD.  They didn't really allow any sparring, just drilling where they did allow contact, but always in a controlled form (only jabbing, only trapping, etc).  After he had been taking it for a year we got to play around in my gym...

He was completely lost when he wasn't in a drill with clearly defined skill sets to be applied.  My lateral movement and orthodox lead (left foot forward) had him confused, me changing ranges and mixing up my tactics with broken rythym had him completely frustrated.  He wasn't able to deal with the improvization that comes into play with normal sparring.  I was able to keep him outside of his comfort zone and simply dismantle him.  

I was surprised because I had drilled with him before this and he had very sound skills, but he hadn't figured out how to apply them outside of drilling mode and how to apply them with someone not doing the same things.  He said he felt like he was always a step behind... that he was trying to figure out what I was doing, then adapt to it while I had already moved onto something else.  

I would ask your instructor about sparring, just be respectful and ask him if you could spar somewhat.  Make it clear that you aren't trying to challenge anyone except yourself and that you aren't trying to hurt anyone.  

As for contact levels, while going hard every once in a while is beneficial IMHO, I've always learned the most when going light with my partners (50-70%) power since I wasn't afraid of getting hurt, I could relax and try out new skillsets I wasn't as comfortable with instead of going back to my bread and butter techniques.  

YMMV


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## Nolerama (Jun 9, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> As for contact levels, while going hard every once in a while is beneficial IMHO, I've always learned the most when going light with my partners (50-70%) power since I wasn't afraid of getting hurt, *I could relax and try out new skillsets I wasn't as comfortable with instead of going back to my bread and butter techniques.
> *
> YMMV




Amen to that.


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## Glycerine0160 (Jun 9, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> I've applied gunting in an SD situation. Although I'd never bank on this 100%, but a lot of people throw sloppy "hay maker" punches, and gunting through that into an uppercut/push/more blocking/etc is certainly viable. It's happened to me a few times before, gunting is pretty effective in those situations.
> 
> Destructions, to me, should be reserved for an escalation in force. A responding officer or a jury will only see a dislocated joint, crushed base of the skull, etc and not see the situation in a completely favorable light for you. In other words, if there's ambulance ride-worthy injuries for the losing party, the winning party will still get tossed in the back of a patrol car regardless of who started the altercation. Destructions should be used very wisely.
> 
> ...


 

Really? I never thought destruction moves could end up so awing. I am pretty comfortable with the gunt, so I will use that. I found also while performing the gunt, I learned to throw in my right foot over his, step one in the hary mal silat. Check off the arm, use the other elbow to lift the arm and deliver an elbow. After really thinking about this movie, I realized the elbow is so effective cause it allows for a block if he comes with a quick jab with the unchecked hand.   

anyway, I don't really see how this move alone would end up in anything broken, maybe a numb forearm and an elbow to the face. 
Although, I'm curious and will put thought into the destruction moves I know/will learn and see how damaging they ultimately can be. Though, if you are right, I would avoid using the severe ones unless it was a multi person fight or plain fearing for my life. 

I do like though that knowing martial arts allows me to feel a little more free. If I'm going for a run at night, I carry my knife with me incase. If I see a group of thuggish kids approaching in a slightly unsound distance, I don't feel as scared. 

A. I'm in good shape to run
B. I'm more confident in myself, there I feel I could negotiate better.
C. I could defend myself much better.


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## Nolerama (Jun 9, 2008)

Glycerine0160 said:


> Really? I never thought destruction moves could end up so awing. I am pretty comfortable with the gunt, so I will use that. I found also while performing the gunt, I learned to throw in my right foot over his, step one in the hary mal silat. Check off the arm, use the other elbow to lift the arm and deliver an elbow. After really thinking about this movie, I realized the elbow is so effective cause it allows for a block if he comes with a quick jab with the unchecked hand.
> 
> anyway, I don't really see how this move alone would end up in anything broken, maybe a numb forearm and an elbow to the face.
> Although, I'm curious and will put thought into the destruction moves I know/will learn and see how damaging they ultimately can be. Though, if you are right, I would avoid using the severe ones unless it was a multi person fight or plain fearing for my life.
> ...




I don't think sparring would help out much in profiling thuggish kids and anticipating what they might or might not do.

I do think we have a difference in opinion in the overall objective for a "destruction" but I see where you're coming from.


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## Dark Gift Concepts (Jun 11, 2008)

Yes it does, goes on a % scale.


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## paulH (Jun 14, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> I've only dabbled in JKD, so take this anecdotal story for what it is.... One of my buddies was training at a BJJ school that also taught JKD. They didn't really allow any sparring, just drilling where they did allow contact, but always in a controlled form (only jabbing, only trapping, etc). After he had been taking it for a year we got to play around in my gym...
> 
> He was completely lost when he wasn't in a drill with clearly defined skill sets to be applied. My lateral movement and orthodox lead (left foot forward) had him confused, me changing ranges and mixing up my tactics with broken rythym had him completely frustrated. He wasn't able to deal with the improvization that comes into play with normal sparring. I was able to keep him outside of his comfort zone and simply dismantle him.
> 
> ...


 
i have only one major problem with sparing... people tend to dodge back a lot and get out of range...

in my experience in a street fight people are coming together (usually very fast) to hurt each other... 

whilst sparing can teach you a lot its imo as important to train in more practical scenarios as well... not in drill format, completly free form but the interception element of jkd is imo improved with this style of training...

sounds to me your friend was learning jkd in a very haphazord way... trapping and punching are not seperate things... the ranges of combat are not static and drills should where possible move over multiple ranges... and to me drills should ALWAYS have multiple outcomes... say you  oblieque kick then then may step back, may step off may shuffel back or may attack with hands... we never know what the reaction will be and then react to the reaction... it teaches distance and timing as well as making you think... also i hate training in gyms... matts just annoy me you dont bounce and move in real life like you do on matts and wooden floors let you move your feet in unrealistic ways... we train on concrete sometimes... uneven surfaces etc... that teaches you a LOT especially about footwork... pushing people over kerbs etc

imo i get more for street defence from that type of training than i do from sparing... though we occasionally spar with some mma guys in another class its just not very real to me... we cant take knees, throat shots, balls, eyes... all the good stuff is off limits...

not to dis sparing though i think its essential to help you be comfortable in your stance and find out what works for you and you have to know how to take a punch or several (though we do allow quite heavy contact with our drills especially for leg conditioning... ouch!!!!!)...



my own favourire is being well protected (headgaurd with face guard, hockey pads, groin protecter / belly guard for the kidneys, mma gloves)... then just go for it 100%... short and sharp both of you coming together cos thats how it happens in a street...


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## Dark Gift Concepts (Jun 15, 2008)

paulH said:


> i have only one major problem with sparing... people tend to dodge back a lot and get out of range...
> 
> in my experience in a street fight people are coming together (usually very fast) to hurt each other...
> 
> ...



Totally agree, you tend to see back peddle and a lot of sparring/fighting in a context which is not reality based. Also if you happen to pay close attention to when your student's spare "the regular class guys" as to how they do to an outside source coming in. Body mechanics change and there focus becomes much sharper.. in most cases.


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## Glycerine0160 (Jul 1, 2008)

so we did some minimal sparring, nothing too nuts since no one has all the equipment. 

4 waves

1st wave was just kicking
2nd was trapping range
3rd was trapping range/take downs
4th was one guy punches and the other guy blocks

this is the second day we are doing this, it's really tiring. 

With the trapping, there are a few things I can't quite conclude...


1.) I believe i need to be more agressive and finish the trap
2.) i imagine not really throwing hits that stun a guy makes it difficult to trap and take down
3.) I'm starting to think learning a technique is far different that actually using it in a real situation.
4.) I'm learning to test things out, I find I'm not a big fan of gunting. Gunting for me is more natural in the left lead, but I feel less mobile in my left. and my straight blast, forget it.
5.) I think light sparring and heavy sparring both have their strengths.


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## Empty Hands (Jul 2, 2008)

Glycerine0160 said:


> #3.) I'm starting to think learning a technique is far different that actually using it in a real situation.



DING DING DING!  We have a winner!

Now if only a rather disturbingly large part of the Martial Arts world would have the same realization!


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## Empty Hands (Jul 2, 2008)

Oops, double post.


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## tellner (Jul 2, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> DING DING DING! We have a winner!
> 
> Now if only a rather disturbingly large part of the Martial Arts world would have the same realization!


 
If only they'd change the training so the two matched.


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## Kentao5 (Jul 2, 2008)

One does not want to become a "Master of Drills" or "Demonstrations." 
If you want to learn to fight, you have to train with someone who is fighting back.


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## kailat (Jul 2, 2008)

Ok, I have to ask you what your teacher (sifu) background is and where his JKD is derived from?  Which lineage is branched off of, or his sifu rather.  (I think this would really help alot of us more familiar w/ JKD) to identify a little more.

 "Way of the intercepting fist" has 5 principles that you must learn to identify as well as learn to execute with efficiency.  This is the beginning of the end within JKD.  Outside of the very basics: footwork, trapping drills, and sil lum tao (if that is something your taught).

  With these 5 principles aka "5 ways of attack" these are drills that start off very stagnant and very "drill-matic" in a sense.. you have to study these 5 principles and understand their components and exponents of execution, both from offensive and defensive.   As these attacks start to come together you begin to notice your going to take them to a higher and more aggressive state to later you'll notice youll be sparring and not even know it..  You can then identify these 5 ways of attack in an actual full contact set up type environment and have answers to these elements.

  USING NO WAY AS WAY and HAVING NO LIMTATIONS AS LIMITATIONS to understand this you'll see where and how JKD pulls together..  This should be a foundation a core of what lies ahead.. If you begin pulling other arts into your JKD (concepts) if thats your way ie. filipino arts, bjj, mma, muay thai, etc... you'll always fall back on your JKD as your foundational hold.  

 Hope this helps you identify alot of what your studying and what your goals should be..

 So what im saying is, slow down onto th sparring and focus on the "5 ways of attack" and begin to work by identifying them and exploring them at their fullest.  Take a straight punch, using a stop kick or hook kick to close the gap to insert your defense.  FIRST RLE OF THUMB is "ATTACK" always attack..


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## Glycerine0160 (Jul 4, 2008)

kailat said:


> Ok, I have to ask you what your teacher (sifu) background is and where his JKD is derived from? Which lineage is branched off of, or his sifu rather. (I think this would really help alot of us more familiar w/ JKD) to identify a little more.
> 
> "Way of the intercepting fist" has 5 principles that you must learn to identify as well as learn to execute with efficiency. This is the beginning of the end within JKD. Outside of the very basics: footwork, trapping drills, and sil lum tao (if that is something your taught).
> 
> ...


 

I think you are right. We learned the 5 ways of attack, I just never really took them into such a rigorous mind set. (Now I will) I did realize, it was hard to get my opponent to do what I wanted. Attack my drawing is good, but when you aren't kicking or hitting real hard, it's hard to get someone to draw when they are not afraid. Both of my opponents I kicked a lot and fast to piss them off. It worked about half of the time. Over the past few days, I feel like I'm grasping collie and silat a lot better. 

That was another thing, when we were doing light sparring on take downs, it was very difficult for anyone but the skilled guys to do anything we learned. My one friend got me in an underhook (one that I probably could of shrugged away, but I wanted him to feel he earned it) Otherwise, it seemed tackling was the most used. I have one year experience of wrestling, so I could of won this tackling match. I just avoided using a tackle cause it seems so without poise. Like any git could do it.


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## Glycerine0160 (Sep 24, 2008)

Havnt' sparred in a while, but monday we did trapping/punching/kicking.

It's funny how much trapping and intercepting quickly become the basis, especially at the more novice levels (such as myself)

Listening to some of the real experienced discuss there sparring experiences got me so enthusiastic to learn more. 

One of the secondary instructors said he was sparring with one of our jkd students who used to do a lot of tae kwan do. He was saying how quick his kicks were and how one kick was coming for his face. He had no choice but to throw up his elbow in a block/destructive move.

The other one was reminiscing on his fight with this jkd student who previously did boxing. And how at one point he was centimeters away from getting nailed by a huge hook.

Anyway, I think I'm going to put a lot of time into my trapping/straight blast and just some of the basic concepts like singular angular attacks. Just focus on the bread and butter. Nothing against the silat grappling stuff, but I have a new light for them.

I look at grappling like weapon fighting. You don't look for the disarm. You'll know it when you see it and you will execute. So that is why I want to invest a lot of my outside class time to the other stuff.


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## Smoke (Jun 21, 2009)

I think you absolutely have to have sparring.  Sparring is the getting into the water that Lee spoke so much about.

A lot of people HATE sparring.  But I find that almost without exception, this is either because they weren't taught HOW to spar (apply their developing skills in real time) or they weren't doing progressively, gradually.  

Also, sparring tends to be a big ego-fest for many people and just some sort of free-for-all "proving ground".  But that should be left for fighting.  Good sparring should be done in a manner that allows learning to occur, IMO.

As far as guntings and destructions are concerned, they can be plugged right into sparring.  However if you're wearing gloves, you're not going to get the results you're looking for.  You almost have to train bareknuckle and with some full face headgear.  Bareknuckle is obviously very difficult to do for safety reasons.  

Spikes on the other hand, well that's a little different.  I've felt the elbow destruction (spike) through 16oz gloves.  I've also taken a few on my shin as well and wore a nice mouse on my leg for several days.

I think the success or failure of things like guntings,etc, depend on how they're used as well.  I'm in more of a defensive mindset at RANGE when I use them as part of an active defense (as opposed to a passive defense).  I'm not necessarily looking to close or go on the offensive when I use them.  Usually I'm staying outside and "pot-shotting".  With proper angles and footwork, they can work.  Without the angles though, you're vulnerable to being lit up.

As guntings/destructions are often taught though, you'd think a person was merely trying to "beat up someone's arm".  It's almost laughable.  I haven't found them usuable in this regard when your opponent is trying to take your head off.


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## Glycerine0160 (Jul 7, 2009)

Very good insight. I particularly like your last paragraph about the gunting. But another way I feel you could perceive it as (maybe this is what you were saying) in a fight, hit the closest available target. That's how we train with weapons, and that's how it should be empty handed. So if you are out of range of the body and head, and the arm is coming at you, why not use it as a base target when moving in?

Anyway, this foreign exchange student is now working at my job. He is from Lithuania and has done muay thai for 2 years. We were talking about sparring and it made me realize I really want to do heavy sparring once in a while. I'm jealous that he can most likely eat up body shots and such and I can't, simply because I dont' train that way. 

He offered that we could sparr. Not quite sure how that would go, considering he doesn't have gear, so it'd probably be on the lighter side. 


But more so onto my establishment, even when we do sparring, everyone pulls all their hits. It's almost like a technique-full ballet. There are times for that, but I want to season my body for hits. 

I also wish we did the clinch range in sparring. We learn all these silat lankas and take downs, but we never use them in sparring. 
A fwe weeks ago we did a grappling sparring session, but it was a joke considering no one knew what the hell they were doing on the mats. I have a single year of wrestling under my belt, so I knew how to maintain control and move in quick. 

But I'm not really concerned with grappling on the ground, I figure if I ever get in that scenario, I'm just eye gouging, scratching, biting my way to victory.

But I really am interested in learning how to cope with a clinch like setting. This one assitant instructor who is originally from the Phillipines comes in once every few tuesday and talks of some of his spars in close range while they go counter for counter in a clinch like setting. He is a mix of a few things including jkd, and I know he did a lot with bagwasan (sp)  [im just spelling it the way it sounds]


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## still learning (Jul 8, 2009)

Hello,  Sparring is real close to actual fighting....YET 1000 miles in difference.....adrenlines...unknown attack (ers)....

BOXing you need to actual box...intincts are base on getting hit...than one understands "ducking" or weaving...

ONE day everyone who NEVER being in a real street fight?  ....will one day understand....

ONE NEEDS TO FIGHT FOR REAL TO REALLY LEARN TO FIGHT!!!    

...that is one reason....I really found out...my Kempo training...was NOT enough....

YET a poke in the eyes...hit on the throat,groin, or break something is good.....getting there is NOT easy!

To learn for REALS ...is to learn for real! .......Aloha


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