# Obesity and Self-protection?



## kickcatcher (Mar 27, 2006)

Violent crime kills about 16,000 US citizens per year, but obesity causes at least 110,000* deaths per year, smoking 430,000 and alcoholism 80,000. 

Without naming names, the Martial Arts community seems to be pebble-dashed with obese or optionally-unhealthy people claiming to teach or training self-defence.

Im not disputing fat peoples right to self-defence, but it does seem hypocritical for people leading unhealthy, even deadly, lifestyles to lax lyrical about self-defence. 

Do you think that these obese people change their priorities? 




*Some estimates put the figure at around 400,000


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## Grenadier (Mar 27, 2006)

You're opening up a can of worms here.

First of all, I do agree with the principles of what you have stated.  Of course we'd all like to be fit and trim folks.   In general, good things come from someone being in great shape.  

On the other side of the coin, though, is being physically fit absolutely crucial to someone's ability to teach self-defense techniques?  Or even the martial arts as a whole?  I'm going to have to say "no."  

As long as someone's mind is still sound, if he can still demonstrate the techniques proficiently, and get his message across to his students, then the girth of one's waist is not a factor in his ability to be a teacher.  Also, this may indirectly be of a *limited* benefit, since it shows that you don't have to be a superbly conditioned athlete to be a good teacher or practitioner.  

God only knows, that one of my fellow Shotokan instructors (from a long time ago) enjoyed too much of Wen's Chinese Express (all-too-conveniently located two buildings down from ours), and was easily 75 lbs overweight (should have been about 200 lbs, but was at 275 lbs).  While he'd be hampered in extended free-sparring sessions, the quality of his techniques was still good, and he was still an effective teacher.  


There does, however, come a point where someone is too fat for his own good, and that his obesity does affect his ability to perform to a good standard.  At that point, you're darn right; he'd better start losing weight, or he's probably going to be a walking heart attack waiting to happen.


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## shesulsa (Mar 27, 2006)

Hm.  There is much to be said for people who are living examples of fitness and idealism.

However, there is a nagging little entity called real life which can tend to get the better of us once in a while and perhaps for longer whiles in some of us.

I try hard not to judge in cases like this until I get to know the individual and have a taste for what they KNOW and how they can teach.  There are some truly phenominal teachers out there who just aren't in the best of shape due to health problems or a particular health history, medications, thyroid malfunction, etcetera.

My .02 FWIW ....


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## terryl965 (Mar 27, 2006)

Kickcatcher this is the same old story, I can only speak for me, I'm 5'9" 235 lbs. in same people eyes and probaly yours I'm overwieght. In my eyes I'm overwieght been working on it for two years now, but because of certain medication I take it is hard to get rid of the extra pounds. I work out 6 days a week teach 30 classes a week, probaly throw 10,000 kicks every week, so being overwieght has not changed me in any way except being a little slower and that also comes with age and learning how to use my weight as an advantage instead of it hindering me.
Terry


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## kickcatcher (Mar 27, 2006)

I'm not questioning their teaching abilities, or even practical self-protection abilities, I'm questioning how serious they are about protecting themselves. Why dedicate hours to protecting yourself against highly unlikely events (homicide etc) whilst not dedicating time to protecting against the obvious (ill-health due to lifestyle)???


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## Andrew Green (Mar 27, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> I take it is hard to get rid of the extra pounds. I work out 6 days a week teach 30 classes a week, probaly throw 10,000 kicks every week,



Well, regardless of what the scale says, its sounds like you are in good shape 

And that I think is really what should be getting discussed, not weight, but fitness level.

If going up a few flights of stairs leaves a person winded, they can't fight.  In order to be effective you need to be in decent shape, which counts for more then belt or years training or anything.

Put a athletic person from any sport against a very out of shape self-defence expert, the athlete will be where I put my money every time.

Now a person can be out of shape and coach, same as in other disciplines, being able to coach something does not always require being able to do it.  (Although I tend to think it is important that they have done it at some time) and it is kind of like having a doctor that smokes, drinks and eats fast food several times a week...


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## RoninPimp (Mar 27, 2006)

IMO "combat fitness" is the first step in developing a personal SD plan.


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## beau_safken (Mar 27, 2006)

Overweight is soooo relative.  Granted yes there are those that are overweight, however if they are working out in anyway shape or form that is a MAJOR feather in their cap.  Just doing something is better than 90% of all people that say they will do something.  Working out no matter intensity or whatever is all good.  I taught some what you would consider "butterballs" and I tell ya..All that padding sure made it tought to land a solid punch.  Granted those guys kept at it for a couple years and went from butterballs to hardbodies pretty fast.  

Time + Commitment = progress...  Nothing in there about where you start from.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 27, 2006)

Ok, here's a few MA instructors pics easily found on google. I have no idea who each one is, that's not my point. Should these people be battling against imaginary SD adversaries, or battling against the sixth helping of cake? 

_**MODERATOR NOTE: IMAGES REMOVED TO COMPLY WITH IMAGE POSTING POLICY - G KETCHMARK / SHESULSA MT SENIOR MOD.**_


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## beau_safken (Mar 27, 2006)

LOL ok point set match Kick.  Just looking at all the patches and crap screams McDojo and a Mcdonalds close by for those particular instructors apparently.

I dont think I would be feeling too comfy with those kinds of people as instructors.  Samo Hung is about the only guy that I would be cool with being big.


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## shesulsa (Mar 27, 2006)

So ... apart from a lot of celebrity, a lot of money, exposure, and obvious (filmable) skill ... how do you know the difference between them and Samo? what these people can and cannot do based on a google photograph, regardless of the date the pic was taken?

I guess what I'm saying is ... what business is it of any of ours?  If they choose to chow cheeseburgers between classes, isn't that THEIR problem?

Are we gonna get on them about other personal matters like ... sexual orientation?  Relationship failures?  Financial history?

Just curious about that slippery slope there ....


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## beau_safken (Mar 27, 2006)

I might as well just change my name to "Slippery Slope Guy"

Sorry, but if my goal was to lose weight...I wouldnt go to a fat person for advice.  Just like many other things.  ITs the old stigma of preception.  Would you ask someone with no legs for running advice even if they used to be a track star before a accident?  You never know, but then again its all a matter of preception.

I know samo trained with Jackie Chan and regardless of his being in films, he is still damn good.


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## INDYFIGHTER (Mar 27, 2006)

First time I sparred with one of our old instructors who I would have conisdered overweight the first strike he threw was a head kick I would have never guessed him capable of!  He was also ashmatic so he was always short of breath.  Was he any less of a good teacher?  No, he knew devistating techniques and was focused on ending fights quickly.  

Someone said they would put their money on a untrained (in martial arts) athlete against an overweight martial artist.  I'd be carefull doing that.  Just cause an athlete can run all day without getting winded, dunk a basketball or whatever doesn't at all mean they have the skills to end a fight on the street.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 27, 2006)

People seem keen to defend the fat instructors and say how badass they can be. Cool, but it's not what the thread is about. It's about protecting yourself.


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## shesulsa (Mar 27, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> People seem keen to defend the fat instructors and say how badass they can be. Cool, but it's not what the thread is about. It's about protecting yourself.


Protecting yourself from yourself?


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## Stan (Mar 27, 2006)

I think that this is a very interesting question that I have considered for a long time.  

I don't think it's a issue of castigating people (not that anyone here has been doing that), but a question we should all ask ourselves.

Is "self-defense" the same as "self-preservation"?  More specically, is the primary reason for wanting to be able to defend ourselves from violent attack, the desire to prolong our lives as long as is in our control?

Put this way, the question sounds ridiculous.  Of course, no one wants to be the victim of a violent attack.  Even fewer would want their life ENDED by a violent attack.  We all seek self-preservation.  

But as the original post asked, why do we choose to spend our time learning how to defend against this relatively unlikely threat?  Besides health, we could practice defensive driving, swimming, or many other physical activities that are likely to prevent us from dieing a terrible death.  

Obviously self-defense is not the only benefit of martial arts, nor the only reason we study.  Still, many martial artists I know use efficacy in self-defense as rubrik by which to judge an art, a technique or a training regimen.  Even for those of us who are healthy, not overweight, don't smoke, etc, how many of us put as much time and effort into making sure we are not killed by heart disease, breast cancer or in an auto accident, as we do trying to make sure we are not stabbed to death?

I mean that rhetorically, of course.  I think that one of the primary benefits of learning self-defense is psychological and spiritual (regardless of whether one studies a "spiritual" martial art).  We don't fear death as much as we fear someone exercising POWER over us, and we being POWERLESS to stop them.  I believe, without being critical, that for many including myself, martial arts are about a sense of self, about our WILL, and our EGO.  

For the martial artist, our training represents how we see ourselves in the world.  Some of us may be better than others at defending against forces which threaten our lives, such as cancer and heart disease.  All of us are mortal, and will succumb to one of these threats, no matter how much time we spend on health or self-defense.  But we train so that we cannot be dominated, so that no other person's malicious WILL can snuff out our own.  This is what makes the martial artist difference from the fitness nut.  This is why self-defense is not mere self-preservation


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## kickcatcher (Mar 27, 2006)

good post.


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## Stan (Mar 27, 2006)

Thank you.  Good thread.


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## Shirt Ripper (Mar 27, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> Obesity kills far more people every year than violent crime. If people were serious (/logical) about protecting themselves, they'd put lifestyle and diet way above self-defence training.


 
I agree with the first part.  And I see your viewpoint.  I think it is realistically possible to secure one's safety at the table and on the streets at the same time.  In fact, many martial arts (which can and should be studied for SD purposes) are demanding enough physically that for some it can make an impact on one's physical condition and overall health...coupled with a sound overall plan, of course.  The obesity rates and number of overweight individuals in this country is frightening to me (hence my career path) but I don't see it as necessary to neglect one thing to adopt a healthier lifestyle.


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## shesulsa (Mar 27, 2006)

_***Moderator note:  Thread moved to Health Tips for the Martial Artist**
G Ketchmark / shesulsa*_


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## shesulsa (Mar 27, 2006)

That said and done, I'd like to hear what you do to keep yourself in optimum health, KC.

What is your daily intake of fiber?  Do you monitor your blood sugar?  What is your position on the whole animal protein + complex carbohydrate food combination thing?

How do you keep your gut peptide balance healthy and how do you monitor it? What is your position on peptides and obesity?  Do you think Beano helps?

These are all things that are a regular part of my life and I'm curious just how carefully everyone monitors their health, fitness level and dietary intake?


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## beau_safken (Mar 27, 2006)

Hmm well now that this is in the health section...

Fat people die more than skinny people.  

Commence the slippery slope arguement.


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## stone_dragone (Mar 27, 2006)

I, too, would argue that it is a question of why one studies a self-defense art.  I'm not talking about the "I don't wanna get mugged" reason, but the deeper need met by such education, which could arguably be the desire to avoid being a victim of SOMEONE ELSE's violent will. There's the key...SOMEONE ELSE's will. 

When it comes to someone controlling their own will (having one oreo instead of the entire pack) it becomes a totally different question.  Knowing what we know today, should a sense of self preservation lead to a loss of weight?  One would hope so...but that isn't the case.  Humans are hardwired to hoard food in the place that is the easiest to store...our gullet.  It is an unfortunate self-preservation method that now counteracts our well being.  

Do I prefer to exercise and maintain a "healthy" weight.  Yes.  Do I revel every time I go home and see my highschool buddies (and ex girlfriends!!!) who have nearly doubled their mass since graduation? Absolutely.  Do I study MA/SD to hurt other people? No.  Am I about to put a hurtin' on these Girl Scout thin mints...   mmbmhbm..mbbm..


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## MJS (Mar 27, 2006)

stone_dragone said:
			
		

> Am I about to put a hurtin' on these Girl Scout thin mints... mmbmhbm..mbbm..


 
Those damn cookies!!  I hear ya though...I just can't seem to say no to the mints!!


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## beau_safken (Mar 27, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Those damn cookies!! I hear ya though...I just can't seem to say no to the mints!!


 
Thats something I can't find a arguement against at all....


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## Stan (Mar 27, 2006)

Stone_Dragone, thank you for trying to move this interesting thread back towards the disucssion of a true paradox and away from insults.

Philosophically, this subject reflects on what it means to be free, and what responsibilities go with freedom.  Many would say, (and I'm not necessarily one of them, so don't you go pigeonholeing me politically    that the fat martial artists that this thread started out about could be a metaphor for the American Republic.  We are strong in the defense of our freedom from domination from other powers, but may not always do as much as others to develop ourselves, be it in physical fitness, art, literature, science, or whatever.  

The protection from the arbitrary will of another that I mentioned above is one of the most important aspects of freedom.  John Locke defined slavery as the absolute, arbitrary power of one person or group over another.  Whether malicious or not, a person who exercises such power over another can threaten the other's live at any time, so the yielding of the power in the first place is a threat to life.  Maybe this arguement about the unhealthy martial artist is an arguement about what it means to be free, what it means to be willing to fight for one's freedom, and what the responsibilities of a free person are.


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## MJS (Mar 27, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> Thats something I can't find a arguement against at all....


 
And whats worse, is that after we're done buying from friends, family and co-workers, I go to the grocery store, and what do I see set up, outside the entrance/exit doors???  Girl Scout Cookies!!!!!!!!!


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## MSUTKD (Mar 27, 2006)

I would think that if someone was really interested in self-defense that he or she would also be interested in physical fitness.  I do not believe that you can truly defend yourself if you are not in shape.  You can have a job, family and life along with staying in shape.  It is just how you set your priorities.  As instructors I think we have to set an example for the student.  My teacher is 70 years old and still trains everyday and looks great.

ron


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## Cruentus (Mar 27, 2006)

Long post ahead: I think people need to be healthy, period. 

Yet, the way we view health as well as our overall condition is problematic in our society of extremes. We have actoresses who have gotten tinier and tinier, atheletes and body builders who have gotten larger, leaner and more muscular (and not without the aid of drug use, I might add). There are more diets, diet food, and gym memberships then ever before, yet in america as a whole we are more obese then we ever have been. And other countries are following suit - we just happend to be the leaders. Anyone want to know why?

I would love to know why myself. I am not an expert on the subject, but I have an informed opinion. If I had to guess, I would guess that the reason we are so unhealthy has to do with 3 things - toxicity, social-economics, and psychology.

Toxicity: We live in a more toxic environment then ever before. The air we breathe and the water we drink are filled with garbage. Food companies are allowed to put more toxins in our food then ever before, and the FDA rubberstamps all of it. Toxins that end up in our body are stored as adapose tissue. If it wasn't stored, then all that poison would float around wrecking havoc on our system, making us sick or possibly killing us. So, our body creates more fat to store toxins as a defense mechanism. Losing fat, then, becomes an uphill battle with the more toxins and garbage we expose ourselves too.

Social-economics: I don't know if this is the right term, but basically I am refering to lifestyle. However, I am not refering to mere lifestyle choices because our societal structure has limited our choices, or at least made them more difficult. Most households have 2 working parents instead of one, and people are kept busy, busy, busy. So, taking the time to have home cooked meals, and taking the time to walk more and exercise more is becoming less of an option for many people. People just don't have the time because our middle class is erroding, so people are busy trying to pay bills. THis means more processed foods and fast foods, and less exercise time. This means more toxins in our diet, and less time to buy fresh foods and prepare fresh meals. People try to combat this issue through fad diets and consumerism; buying supplements, pills, diet plans, exercise equipment, and gym memberships. However, it just doesn't give most people the results because there are no quick fixes. What is needed is a lifestyle change that is harder and harder for many people to do these days.

Psychology: We have a extremest consumerist mentality in our society. We can't just eat right and be healthy. We all want to have rippling muscles, lean bodies, washboard abs, etc. We all want to look like the cover of a magazine. And we all want it right now. Most people don't want to accept the fact that due to genetics and lifestyle situations, they are never going to have the body of a god or goddess, and therefore should just try to live healthy every day and forget about the magazines. Most people, usually after the holidays, crash diet and hit the gym and buy all kinds of crap to try to make themselves look really healthy really fast. Then, when they don't attain their unrealistic goals, they get unmotivated and life takes over. They get "busy." And, with our extremest consumerist mentality, we PAID for that diet plan and gym membership, so dammit we should be bathing suit ready in 8 weeks. Well, I did that, so now I am entitled to gorge myself with all kinds of garbage because I EARNED it by dieting and exercising all that time. They of course neglect to tally the 3 months of sedentary behavior followed by 2 months  of holiday gorging in their entitlement to reaching perfection in 8 weeks.

Well, you get the idea. What is required is a lifestyle change. But instead, because of our mentality, people go through fustrated cycles of crash diets and exercise plans, followed by apathy and unhealthy habits due to unattained goals that were unrealistic in the first place. People seem to flip back and forth between these cycles until total fustration causes them stop caring, and to REALLY let themselves go.

*Yet, where should we stand on this issue as self-defense advocates?*

I think that we first of all should not fall victim to the superficiality of idolizing the drug users of the athletic world, putting them up on the pedistal as the physical criteria that we all need to achieve. This is unrealistic and part of the problem rather then the solution.

What we do need to do is advocate a healthy lifestyle. Keep in mind that there are a lot of people who may not look like they are in shape, but who may be all around very healthy. Unless someone has to be wheeled in the room on a gurney, it isn't always evident by looking at them that they are unhealthy. There are a lot of people out there who don't look the part, but who are in better condition then others that do. You can't judge a book by it's cover. I also think it would be arrogent to say that you couldn't learn a self-defense concept or skill from someone who doesn't "look" in shape.

That all said, as combatants and as self-defense instructors, we can't ignore the fact that the better shape we are in, the better off we will be in a fight. So, being in shape should be a part of our self-defense plan. The better fighting condition we are in, the more likely we are to survive a violent encounter. We need to know this for the sake of ourselves and anyone we teach.

Paul


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## shesulsa (Mar 27, 2006)

To capitalize on Paul's point ... are we saying that only lean people with good cholesterol, normal blood sugar and decent cardiovascular fitness are entitled to learn self-defense?

And speaking of slippery slopes  what about differently-abled persons? How do these people protect themselves ... from themselves?  And should they DARE to teach self-defense?

Also ... I'd still like to know how certain members keep themselves in top condition.  You know, that question about fiber and stuff?


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Mar 27, 2006)

Ladies, Gentlemen, and small wormlike creatures currently tied into a Gordian Knot: Let me cut through the maze.


Discussion of nuclear arms, politics and other cranial-rectal issues: Please go to H...The Study

Discussion of Self Defense related ideas: Go to Self Defense.

Discussion of Health matters: You're in the right space.

(The question of mind however is up for debate.)


Martial Artists should be fit. Period.
However. Being overweight, in any amount, does not diminish the quality of the material an individual may offer.
It may effect their application and demonstration of said material.

I have seen a number of "large" martial artists. Some of them are slow and lumbering beasts. Others move quite well for someone that size, often moving well for a much "slimmer model".

Yes, it would be nice if they were "fit", but their own health is their concern. I'm more concerned with the quality of material, over physical appearance quirks.

Yes, it does hurt their credibility, but on that same line, I've never met a gym teacher or little league coach who was ready for battle either.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2006)

One comment and I am out of this.

Has anyone ever seen a picture of Yang Cheng-fu?

He was considered an amazing teacher and he was allegedly undefeated.

And the most widely taught Tai Chi in the world today is.....Yang Style.


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## MJS (Mar 27, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Yes, it would be nice if they were "fit", but their own health is their concern. I'm more concerned with the quality of material, over physical appearance quirks.


 
Amen!!  Unfortunately, and due to the many reasons already listed, some people just may never have a low percentage of body fat, a washboard stomach, and be in overall good health.  As you said, that is the choice that they want to make.  

Personally, I'm not looking at how many stripes they have on their belt, how many fights they've had, or how big or small their stomach is, but instead, what they can teach me.

Mike


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Mar 27, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> One comment and I am out of this.
> 
> Has anyone ever seen a picture of Yang Cheng-fu?
> 
> ...


Heck, I've seen alot of paintings, and pictures of older masters. Can't say I recall ever seeing any that looked "fit and trim". Alot were little bald fat guys.  Guess the stuff they did was effective without having to be ready to run a triathalon. I like that. What good is any art that will only work if one is ready to model in a fitness magazine?


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## Cruentus (Mar 27, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> How does one protect oneself from oneself? Please answer - how does one do this, in your opinion?


 
Well....all I have to say is that if I can get through the day without hitting myself, then its been a good day. I have protected myself from myself considerably...


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## shesulsa (Mar 27, 2006)

_*Moderator Note:

Flame posts have been removed in an effort to restore the integrity of the thread.  

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Senior Moderator*_


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## Shirt Ripper (Mar 27, 2006)

Man, you guys post fast...I was at Aikido...and what happened with this thread I was reading the third page and trying to get to the fourth and they both dissapeared...probably not worth it then, eh?

Majority of the P.E. teachers I have known were quite sad...I would never let someone you can't do math try to teach me math (or anyone else for that matter!) so why would I let a fat guy or gal try to teach me about physical activity...sad...just sad...makes me want to get my teaching licensure.


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## shesulsa (Mar 27, 2006)

I rather like the idea of a discussion of protecting oneself from ... well, oneself.

I'm curious - how many out there are aware, for instance, of a genetic predisposition to a certain health problem and take active steps against that illness or disorder?

How many have metabolic disorders (if you're willing to disclose) which keep you from being as trim as you ought to be according to your caloric intake vs. caloric usage?


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## Shirt Ripper (Mar 27, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I rather like the idea of a discussion of protecting oneself from ... well, oneself.
> 
> I'm curious - how many out there are aware, for instance, of a genetic predisposition to a certain health problem and take active steps against that illness or disorder?
> 
> How many have metabolic disorders (if you're willing to disclose) which keep you from being as trim as you ought to be according to your caloric intake vs. caloric usage?



Oh man, I've got a serious history on my hands.  Most cardiac fun is present there...my dad recently developed type II.  I was about 260lbs. in eighth grade so I have a little _personal_ history added to that and was about as borderline diabetic as one can get.  Thank God for my bike, the weightroom and football, eh?  I currently train strongman primarily with a major emphasis on overall condition (as if you could avoid it training for strongman) as well as some aikdio.  My diet is layed out with my bloodline in mind.  I'm just glad I shaped up and started absorbing information so young so as I can avoid my dad's current situation and his father's and grandfather's lethal cardiac incident in their early 50's.........Hopefully.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 28, 2006)

i'm a kenpo guy.  many of you know that this thread could have been inspired by many of our seniors.

it's a running joke among many kenpokas i know that obesity is a rank requirement somewhere above 5th.

funny, but i find it disappointing.  a few extra pounds is one thing, but no martial arts teacher should need to rest going up a flight of stairs, or require a two mirrors to wash his junk.


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## DavidCC (Mar 28, 2006)

Optimally, shouldn't a self-defense situation be over in a few seconds?  That mugger is either going to shoot or stab your, or you are going to disarm/disable him, in something well short of three 5 minute rounds.

Now, that said, my lack of stamina has limited my ability to train as long and hard as I like... that's why I now am spending all that time on the elliptical machine.

-David


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## Carol (Mar 28, 2006)

The owner of my school is badly, likely permanenly, injured.  

For me, it's a matter of focusing my mind, and not letting myself get distracted.  I've seen the owner of my school try to move a certain way, with his technique being letter-perfect...aside from the part of his body that doesn't respond.  It's heart-wrenching to watch.  Yet, he he won't let me feel sorry for him.  If he sees the expression on my face change, he tries to focus me in on what he is teaching.  

I dunno, a person that happens to be overweight, that is not something that bothers me.  I don't think it would in an instructor, either.  

On the contrary, I don't really like to see anyone denigrated because of their weight.   Something about that really bothers me.  But, that's just my thoughts...


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