# "Only Kill in Justice and in Honor" Eighth Key Concept



## Lynne (Sep 3, 2008)

Our eighth key concept states, "Only Kill in Justice and in Honor."  Since we are not modern warriors, does this statement apply today?  Some schools have removed the word "Kill" and have replaced it with another word.

Does this statement speak to our personal responsibility, given our skill to seriously harm someone?

Do you think the 8th concept should be thrown out, that a more pacifist approach should be taken?

Is the 8th concept right on?


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## JoelD (Sep 3, 2008)

Lynne,

As i mentioned before ours says "only face combat" and not "kill"... i think it could be a translational difference or perhaps a regional coloquialism thats translates in more than one way. 
Also, something to note... Back in the days when Hwarang warriors were still around the two were probably mutually exclusive... combat almost always meant to the death back then. 


A good person to include in this particualr discussion would most certainly be Criag (MBuzzy), as he spent alot of time in Korea and could possibly shed some more light on the possibility of regional differences in dialect and their translations to english.


I think in this day and age the "face combat" one is a bit more apropo. Using your training to defmned yourself or more importantly, your loved ones is certainly justified but you need to be damned careful about how much deadly force you use and be sure it is justified or you could be on the wrong end of a homicide charge.


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## thesandman (Sep 3, 2008)

Lynne,

I'd like to identify what makes you think you're not a warrior.

As to the concept, and be aware that many people would correct you what is and is not a "key concept" vs an "article of faith" and how many of each there are, but I believe that the idea is very applicable to all of us.  It speaks of justice, not revenge.  Of honor, not pride.  Understanding the difference between these things and how they should affect our choices can greatly improve our lives.


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## MBuzzy (Sep 3, 2008)

JoelD said:


> Lynne,
> 
> As i mentioned before ours says "only face combat" and not "kill"... i think it could be a translational difference or perhaps a regional coloquialism thats translates in more than one way.
> Also, something to note... Back in the days when Hwarang warriors were still around the two were probably mutually exclusive... combat almost always meant to the death back then.
> ...


 
I would love to be able to provide more insight as to the history, but not only am I not able to find a hangul version of the 10 articles, but I also don't know their history.  

I would be willing to bet that the killing part is either older and was "softened" to combat or was added to make it sound more tough.  I will do some research into some Korean and Hanja words when I get home and see if there are any correlations between the words.

I can say though, that the "Hwarang warriers" (actually flower youth and more of a boy scouts than warriers, but that's another conversation) or whatever ancient group you would like to use probably had some type of code within which they operated.  It could have come from there, but so many of Korea's records and older documents were burned or destroyed during the Japanese occupation that I dont' know how we would know what they were....


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## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

thesandman said:


> Lynne,
> 
> I'd like to identify what makes you think you're not a warrior.
> 
> As to the concept, and be aware that many people would correct you what is and is not a "key concept" vs an "article of faith" and how many of each there are, but I believe that the idea is very applicable to all of us. It speaks of justice, not revenge. Of honor, not pride. Understanding the difference between these things and how they should affect our choices can greatly improve our lives.


 I think of myself as having the martial art spirit, or rather, the Moo Duk Kwan.  Does that make me a warrior?  Sometimes, I feel like a warrior with the discipline and focus required to advance in martial arts.


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## thesandman (Sep 4, 2008)

Lynne said:


> I think of myself as having the martial art spirit, or rather, the Moo Duk Kwan.  Does that make me a warrior?  Sometimes, I feel like a warrior with the discipline and focus required to advance in martial arts.



The spirit that moved you to train in the first place is the key.  You were a warrior before the first day of your training.  Just an unskilled one.  I bet you do battle more often than you think.  At work or school, or where ever you find yourself challenged or in conflict.  The lessons you learn during your training, beyond just the physical, is what gives you power.  The strength of your punches or the speed of your kicks has little to do with your power.

Here's a question to ask yourself:  How many battles have you won because you didn't have to fight them?


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## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

thesandman said:


> The spirit that moved you to train in the first place is the key. You were a warrior before the first day of your training. Just an unskilled one. I bet you do battle more often than you think. At work or school, or where ever you find yourself challenged or in conflict. The lessons you learn during your training, beyond just the physical, is what gives you power. The strength of your punches or the speed of your kicks has little to do with your power.
> 
> Here's a question to ask yourself: How many battles have you won because you didn't have to fight them?


I find the martial art spirit hard to define, but I think a large part of it is courage.  Yet there are parts of the spirit that I can't articulate - not even sure what they are.  Determination that comes from somewhere deep inside?

I'd watched my daughter's classes for 9 months and something kept tugging at me.  I knew I wanted to do it but didn't know why.  I still can't put my finger on why I do TSD.  My daughter asked me to go as her buddy during buddy week.  I was hooked after that.  If someone asked my what I do TSD, I could only answer, "The physical and mental challenge."  There is more, I just don't know what "it" is.

I'm not an athlete and it took a lot of courage to even go to the buddy class.  One of the senior instructors asked me how I liked the class.  I jokingly said, "I didn't throw up so I thought it went well."  In part, that was a true statement.  I knew the classes were rough.  I'd seen people nearly pass out.  In that buddy class, we did wall kicks, punching drills, crunches, push ups, a form, flying sidekicks - very challenging.  Other students and instructors complimented me on my hard effort and that gave me a boost of confidence.  I joined the school that night.

I don't like going to competitions.  But I understand why it is mandatory that we go.  I learned a lot about myself last year during my first competition.  I found out I have more courage and determination than I ever thought I had.  And there was something about overcoming fear, too.  Also, I didn't care whether I placed, I just wanted to do my best.  I stunk doing my Chil-Sung form because I just wasn't ready at orange belt.  But I placed first in board-breaking and second in sparring.  It was all determination and focus.  I was the eldest in the group; one woman was more than half my age.

I guess there is some inner drive that makes us continue in Martial Arts.  Wish I knew what that was  

What is that inner power?  It has to be more than focus but I suppose focus is a large part of it.  No one is going to make Cho Dan and beyond without it.  It takes some extraordinary mental strength to persevere.

I think it takes some kind of desire/focus to stay on even at my level (4th gup). 

I believe my training has given me more patience, determination and focus than I previously had.  Those qualities certainly help in conflict/problem-solving.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 4, 2008)

The ITF teaches ten "Articles of Faith," which we're required to memorize: 

1. Be loyal to your country
2. Be obedient to your parents.
3. Be loving between husband and wife.
4. Be cooperative between brothers.
5. Be faithful between friends.
6. Be respectful to your elders.
7. Be faithful between teacher and student.
*8. Know the difference between good and evil.
*9. Never retreat in battle.
10. Always finish what you start.

Not sure if this relates to your "key concepts," but I highlighted #8 for a reason: originally, it was "Be just in killing;" however, because we're not really looking to kill, it was re-worded so that the important lesson was learned. It's not just "make sure that if you kill it's for a good reason," it's "know what's right and what's wrong."


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## MBuzzy (Sep 4, 2008)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> The ITF teaches ten "Articles of Faith," which we're required to memorize:
> 
> 1. Be loyal to your country
> 2. Be obedient to your parents.
> ...


 
JT, the 8 key concepts are actually a completely different set of ideas - so the title of the thread should actually read "the 8th article of faith".  Our articles of faith are basically the same....obviously.  All came from the same place.  The rewording was done like you said....because the killing part just doesn't work anymore.  But we're talking about the same thing here.  The US SBD Fed reworded also.


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## EternalAspirer (Sep 5, 2008)

I would think, that as a martial artist, you are taking it upon yourself to be a warrior, from day one. What comes with the territory is the theoretical necessity to kill. It is true, the times have dramatically changed since these statutes were originally set on paper, but the concepts involved have not. It does not matter what time period you live in, or what the actual permutations of the concepts turn out to be. They are concepts to live your life by, and if necessary, some must be carried out in their fullest. 
The world has changed and is changing, yes. But what we are and what we do does not.


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## celtic_crippler (Sep 5, 2008)

I'm not a practicioner of Tang Soo Do, but when you boil things down to the essentials....At the end of the day it's about who goes home in one piece. 

SGM Ed Parker said, "In the end it doesn't matter who is right, it matters who is left." 

I would suggest that in the event you or your loved ones are threatened, that you do what you feel is necessay to feel safe and be the one that winds up at home instead of the ER.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 5, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> I'm not a practicioner of Tang Soo Do, but when you boil things down to the essentials....At the end of the day it's about who goes home in one piece.
> 
> SGM Ed Parker said, "In the end it doesn't matter who is right, it matters who is left."
> 
> I would suggest that in the event you or your loved ones are threatened, that you do what you feel is necessay to feel safe and be the one that winds up at home instead of the ER.



Most certainly...however, as Mufasa said to young Simba, "Being brave doesn't mean you go looking for trouble." TSD is a self-defensive art. If it came down to it, hypothetically speaking, I'm glad I know I could stop someone from hurting me or my loved ones...with a large heaping helping of God's help, of course, but 9 years of TSD doesn't hurt. 

As to killing...unless you're in gun combat, or you know the other person is out specifically to kill you, I wouldn't seek it. Putting someone in the hospital because he was about to harm you is one thing...killing someone...I'm not going to say it could never happen, but that's step 11 of a 10-step process as far as I'm concerned, if you know what I mean. I'm not law enforcement, I'm not a soldier, and anyone I'd be fighting would probably be my fellow citizen.


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