# Bujinkan Founding



## Gina Jordan (Oct 24, 2005)

Does anyone know when (The exact date) that Hatsumi began the Bujinkan organisation?

Gina Jordan
www.toshindo.co.uk


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## Don Roley (Oct 24, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> Does anyone know when (The exact date) that Hatsumi began the Bujinkan organisation?
> 
> Gina Jordan
> www.toshindo.co.uk



Who exaclty the Hell is asking the question?

The last post by "Gina Jordan" starts out by saying "Gina is my partner" and has 


> Anyway would be really interested when, that is the exact date the Bujinkan martial arts began. Maybe i'll start a new post.



as part of it. So when "Gina Jordan" says "Maybe i'll (i.e. Gary Arthur) start a new post" we expect the next post to be signed by Gary Arthur instead of Gina Jordan.

There are reasons why only one person is supposed to use an account at a time. There is also a reason why one person is only supposed to have one active account at a time. There is an account by the title "Gary Arthur" on martialtalk. It is now closed- I do not know by Arthur himself of the administration when they clean out old accounts. In March this year we see the account "Gina" start up and start posting. In June, Gary Arthur starts signing his name to his posts by that account.

Now we have that account by Gary Arthur still active and another account that he posts on being used as well. And when Gary says he will start a new thread, Gina seems to be the one to actually do it.

I am suddenly channeling the spirit of Ricky Ricardo....

_"Lucy, you got some 'splaining to do......."_ 

What the hell happend to the smilies when you need them?


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## Gina Jordan (Oct 24, 2005)

Don
Poimt taken, but as I explained when I put in my e mail address to register, there was no way i could get on. My girlfriend also uses the net and looks at your site so it seemed logical to use her name. No fraud intended here its just that we both use the same PC, e mail address etc.

Now if the administators want to change the name from Gina Jordan to Gary Arthur, I am OK with that.

Actually the real truth is that my real name is Gary Arthur, I just use the name Gina at weekends.

Gary Arthur

Oh does anyone know the Start Date of the Bujinakn.

Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk


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## Cryozombie (Oct 24, 2005)

The actual Bujinkan, under that name?

Most of what I have read says the mid to late 70's... I dont have an exact year.


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## mrhnau (Oct 24, 2005)

Wouldn't this be better suited for the Traditional forum?

MrH


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## Fallen Ninja (Oct 27, 2005)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> Wouldn't this be better suited for the Traditional forum?
> 
> MrH


 I agree, this thread should be moved. Besides the whole Gary Arther/Gina Gordon thing...

It is a good question... just in the wrong section.

FN


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## twayman (Oct 27, 2005)

Gary Arther/Gina Gordon when and if your account gets activated send me a P.M. I have a couple of questions to run by you.  Thanks a head of time.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 27, 2005)

-MOD NOTE-

Thread Moved


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## Dustin (Dec 18, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> Does anyone know when (The exact date) that Hatsumi began the Bujinkan organization?
> 
> Gina Jordan
> www.toshindo.co.uk


 
Easy...when Soke Hatsumi began teaching.... nuff said.  This seems to be a strange misconception among toshindo students, the Bujinkan is Soke Hatsumi. It's not just another organization that studies Budo Taijutsu, the Bujinkan itself is Soke's. I know that in the past, people have played on the name game, "Is it called the Bujinkan, ninjutsu, Togakure Ryu, ninpo taijutsu or budo taijutsu". It doesn't matter, no matter what the name, the man that stood in front of the class was Soke. In my opinion, he is ninjutsu, he is budo taijutsu, if you wish to learn either, you learn from him and do it his way. As his students we must do everything we can to study, mirror, and admire HIS taijutsu. There are a lot of wonderful teachers out there, but we must recognize that sensei Hatsumi is Soke. We must respect his wishes, teachings, and guidance over everyone else's. While in Japan a European Shihan made a great remark that I'll never forget.
    "Soke is the boss, if he wants us to train this way, we train that way, if he tells us to wear pink gi's, we wear pink gi's."


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## Floating Egg (Dec 18, 2005)

If he tells us to kill people, we kill people.


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## Dustin (Dec 18, 2005)

There you go! That's the attitude....J/K


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 18, 2005)

Dustin said:
			
		

> Easy...when Soke Hatsumi began teaching.... nuff said. This seems to be a strange misconception among toshindo students, the Bujinkan is Soke Hatsumi. It's not just another organization that studies Budo Taijutsu, the Bujinkan itself is Soke's. I know that in the past, people have played on the name game, "Is it called the Bujinkan, ninjutsu, Togakure Ryu, ninpo taijutsu or budo taijutsu". It doesn't matter, no matter what the name, the man that stood in front of the class was Soke. In my opinion, he is ninjutsu, he is budo taijutsu, if you wish to learn either, you learn from him and do it his way. As his students we must do everything we can to study, mirror, and admire HIS taijutsu. There are a lot of wonderful teachers out there, but we must recognize that sensei Hatsumi is Soke. We must respect his wishes, teachings, and guidance over everyone else's. While in Japan a European Shihan made a great remark that I'll never forget.
> "Soke is the boss, if he wants us to train this way, we train that way, if he tells us to wear pink gi's, we wear pink gi's."


 
If you're under 10th dan, Soke isn't addressing you when he's speaking. As simple as that.


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## Dustin (Dec 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> If you're under 10th dan, Soke isn't addressing you when he's speaking. As simple as that.


 
mmmmm.... I'm not sure what this has to do with anything I said and it seems like this should be something that should be discussed in a new thread. 

      I'm interested in where you received this information because I would disagree to a certain point. Although I do recall one time Soke was teaching something very confusing and it was really hard to grasp exactly what the heck we was doing, Soke then noticed how much everyone was struggling with the movement, so he stopped the class and said "If you are having trouble with this movement, it's okay because this one was only meant for the 10th dans and above." I do agree that to an extent that much of what Soke teaches can only be completely grasp by the higher levels, but I find it difficult to say that he's "never" speaking to anyone else. Knowing that he personally stopped one of my students and elaborated on something we were working on, and my student was only a 2nd Kyu. Interesting thought though, but we should really return to the topic at hand.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 18, 2005)

Dustin said:
			
		

> mmmmm.... I'm not sure what this has to do with anything I said and it seems like this should be something that should be discussed in a new thread.


 
There is a reason Soke is able to move the way he does. He's not always been that good. And no one within the Bujinkan but him is right now.



			
				Dustin said:
			
		

> I'm interested in where you received this information because I would disagree to a certain point.


 
An European shihan two weeks ago was the most recent person to relay this information. Of course, it wasn't the first time I heard anything along those lines.



			
				Dustin said:
			
		

> Although I do recall one time Soke was teaching something very confusing and it was really hard to grasp exactly what the heck we was doing, Soke then noticed how much everyone was struggling with the movement, so he stopped the class and said "If you are having trouble with this movement, it's okay because this one was only meant for the 10th dans and above." I do agree that to an extent that much of what Soke teaches can only be completely grasp by the higher levels, but I find it difficult to say that he's "never" speaking to anyone else.


 
It's one thing if you're able to pick something useful up from what he's teaching, whether or not he cares if you do or you don't is another issue altogether.


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## Dustin (Dec 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> whether or not he cares if you do or you don't is another issue altogether.


 
 This is a pretty strong statement, keeping in mind how I saw Soke work one on one and discuss perticular movements during training pretty frequently with those both 10th dan and those who were below. But this topic has little to nothing to do with the date to which the Bujinkan began and doesn't need to be discussed any further in this thread.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 18, 2005)

"The Bujinkan is about killing people."

How's that for a strong statement?


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## Dustin (Dec 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> "The Bujinkan is about killing people."
> 
> How's that for a strong statement?


 
:idunno: where did that come from? Ya that's a pretty strong statement I would agree and that is a completely different topic all together.

Here's a good question, does anyone know when Soke actually starting teaching? After getting to train with and meet long time students like Shihan Oguri and Shihan Seno, I would like to just get an idea on how long they've actually been training with Soke, they were absolutely amazing. It's amazing to see that still today they are right there attending Soke's classes after all this time, just think of how many hours they have under their belts with Soke.


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## arnisador (Dec 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> There is a reason Soke is able to move the way he does. He's not always been that good. And no one within the Bujinkan but him is right now.



I think you meant this as a positive statement about his physical abilities, but given how longe he's been teaching, couldn't it be taken as a negative statement about his teaching abilities? Shouldn't someone amongst his students be pretty close by now, after all these years?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 18, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I think you meant this as a positive statement about his physical abilities, but given how longe he's been teaching, couldn't it be taken as a negative statement about his teaching abilities?


 
You're absolutely right. His teaching methods are lousy, and he freely admits this time and again. Of course, that doesn't mean you won't learn all sorts of cool stuff if you're able to follow him.



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> Shouldn't someone amongst his students be pretty close by now, after all these years?


 
In my eyes, yes, but I don't think they would agree...:uhyeah:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 18, 2005)

Dustin said:
			
		

> :idunno: where did that come from? Ya that's a pretty strong statement


 
It comes from Soke himself. Now ask yourself this - is it reasonable to believe that the majority of Bujinkan members around the world kill people on a regular basis?


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## Floating Egg (Dec 18, 2005)

Can't it be about killing people without actually killing anyone?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 18, 2005)

Well, now that you mention it...why not? It's kind of like passing the sakki test without being able to apply kihon happo properly, right?


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## Floating Egg (Dec 18, 2005)

Why do I get the feeling that I've just walked into a trap? lol


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## Cryozombie (Dec 18, 2005)

-MOD NOTE-

Please return this thread to its original Topic.

-Technopunk
-MT Super Mod​


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## Dustin (Dec 18, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> It comes from Soke himself. Now ask yourself this - is it reasonable to believe that the majority of Bujinkan members around the world kill people on a regular basis?


 
.....where did this killing people stuff come from? when did I ever talk about that.... i'm really confused:idunno:




			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> -MOD NOTE-
> 
> Please return this thread to its original Topic.
> 
> ...


 
I completely agree!


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## bencole (Jan 9, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> "The Bujinkan is about killing people." It comes from Soke himself.


 
You could take any comment from Soke and turn it into a complete thread about the deep meaning of it all. I personally like the one when he admonished all the men in the room to have a strong "third leg" as he stiffly held a bo to his hip....  Come now, Nimravus.... 



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> I think you meant this as a positive statement about his physical abilities, but given how longe he's been teaching, couldn't it be taken as a negative statement about his teaching abilities? Shouldn't someone amongst his students be pretty close by now, after all these years?


 
Soke admits that he is not the best teacher. He's like a genius jazz musician who doesn't necessarily understand how he can do what he can do. He relies on others to be able to figure it out, and translate it into digestible pieces that others can learn from. Doesn't mean that a newbie trumpet player (or even a newbie harp player!) should avoid opportunities to play with Miles Davis, but it definitely means that the really talented trumpet players get more out of the experience. I believe this addresses the points raised about whether Soke is speaking to the Judan only or anyone in general.

I personally feel that ANYONE can benefit from time with Soke. Who wouldn't want to be in the same room when Picasso was painting? Soke will not be with us forever and the chance to experience his wisdom, humor and budo feeling will be lost to us all some day....

As for whether others have caught him, I think would be definitely possible, if Soke would just stand still for a while.  Sadly(?), he has never stopped learning, and so he continues to keep a distance between himself and others. I think there are some incredibly talented people out there, but Soke keeps ahead of them by keeping his spirits about him, by humbly realizing that he does not know it all, and by "keeping going." Soke sets a great example for us all.

-ben


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## Koinu (Jan 9, 2006)

bencole said:
			
		

> You could take any comment from Soke and turn it into a complete thread about the deep meaning of it all. I personally like the one when he admonished all the men in the room to have a strong "third leg" as he stiffly held a bo to his hip....  Come now, Nimravus....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Could not agree more Cole San. There are NO teachers just students and Soke is just the best of them and the only real personal student he has ever had. We should all take a leaf from his book in that regard. I think this is   also a measure to look for in anyone you are going to train under if they are a student first who you can learn from, rather than a teacher who wants to teach you . The instructor should learn as much from his other students as they learn from him/her. Soke was like a wide eyed child watching me make a interesting kakushi buki out of a common item he had never seen before.

As for Gary/Gina's question the Bujinkan was founded this very morning as it has been founded on every morning by Soke and will keep being founded with the rising sun of each new day.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 9, 2006)

bencole said:
			
		

> Doesn't mean that a newbie trumpet player (or even a newbie harp player!) should avoid opportunities to play with Miles Davis, but it definitely means that the really talented trumpet players get more out of the experience. I believe this addresses the points raised about whether Soke is speaking to the Judan only or anyone in general.


 
Whom he is speaking to, seems to me to be one thing. Whomever picks up something useful is another.



			
				bencole said:
			
		

> I personally feel that ANYONE can benefit from time with Soke. Who wouldn't want to be in the same room when Picasso was painting?


 
I guarantee you it wouldn't have made me a better painter. The only thing I ask of a painting is that people should be able to see what it is, i.e. a painting. You can't see that when I paint something.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 9, 2006)

Koinu said:
			
		

> As for Gary/Gina's question the Bujinkan was founded this very morning as it has been founded on every morning by Soke and will keep being founded with the rising sun of each new day.


 
Is that measured in GMT?


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## Koinu (Jan 9, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Is that measured in GMT?



Yes ! Grand Masters Timeframe , Great Morning Training


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## bencole (Jan 10, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Whom he is speaking to, seems to me to be one thing. Whomever picks up something useful is another.


 
Soke is speaking to those who have the eyes to see and the ears to listen. 

-ben


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