# Master Gilman's short form



## TaiChiTJ (Sep 15, 2009)

This 34 posture short form is instructed by Michael Gilman: 





 
About Michael: 

Gilman began his studies of Tai Chi Chuan in 1968 with Master Choy Kam-man in San Francisco. Master Choys father Choy Hok-peng, a longtime student of Yang Cheng Fu, is credited with introducing Tai Chi to America in the 1940s.  Master Choy taught the full Yang Style curriculum and that is the system that Michael still practices and teaches.

I checked YouTube and sho' nuff' here is Master Choy Kam-man in San Francisco in 1971. Early days of Tai Chi Chuan in the USA!!




 
This short form presents fist under elbow early in the form, via an interesting stepping procedure. I'd like to here people's comments on it and anything else.


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## East Winds (Sep 16, 2009)

As a "health giving" form, its probably OK, but it would be totally useless martially!!

Very best wishes


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## TaiChiTJ (Sep 17, 2009)

Yes, it seems to be presented as a health form.


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## mograph (Sep 18, 2009)

Just wondering ... for the sake of training my own eyes to see things in a form: why would this form be useless martially?

Thanks ...


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## East Winds (Sep 18, 2009)

mograph,

The "Grasp the Birds Tail" sequence is a series of arm and wrist locks. His hand positions would preclude this. The stepping round into "Fist Under Elbow" involves cross stepping (and therefore instability) and the final part of the posture is grasping ther oppopnents left wrist, twisting it upwards and punching the ribs below his left elbow.Hence "Fist Under (opponents) Elbow".  His postures would not allow for this. And so it goes on throughout his performance. As I say, probasbly a good "health" form, but nothing beyond that.

It always surprises me how many "Long time students of Yang Cheng Fu (Choy Hok-peng in this case)" seem to have forgotten or to totally ignore Cheng-fu's 10 essences in their transmission of the form.  

 Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 18, 2009)

East Winds said:


> mograph,
> 
> The "Grasp the Birds Tail" sequence is a series of arm and wrist locks. His hand positions would preclude this. The stepping round into "Fist Under Elbow" involves cross stepping (and therefore instability) and the final part of the posture is grasping ther oppopnents left wrist, twisting it upwards and punching the ribs below his left elbow.Hence "Fist Under (opponents) Elbow". His postures would not allow for this. And so it goes on throughout his performance. As I say, probasbly a good "health" form, but nothing beyond that.
> 
> ...


 
Was Choy Hok-peng a real student of Changfu or just a student? The reason I ask is because I don't know. However if anyone has the Chinese characters for his name I can find out.


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## TaiChiTJ (Sep 18, 2009)

East Winds said:


> mograph,
> 
> The stepping round into "Fist Under Elbow" involves cross stepping (and therefore instability)


 

Aha! My thoughts exactly. I just wanted to see if someone else would see it. That's why I mentioned it in starting this thread. I am reluctant to be too hard on this, it is in indeed different than anything I have seen, but perhaps Master Gilman could speak to it in one of his classes. 

Thank You East Winds.


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## TaiChiTJ (Sep 18, 2009)

Xue Sheng, you know more about Yang Tai Chi's various lineages than I do. Recently I acquired a discussion of a short form (not Master Gilman's) and it came with a chapter that lists Yang lineage students starting with Yang Lu Chan. It lists his name as Yang Fu Kui, Lu Chan,, (1799-1872) Founder. There is a Choy Heng Peng (1886-1957). That is a different spelling, so I do not know if that is it. 

Its got the many people listed divided into generations. Choy Kam Man (1924-1994) is under the fifth generation. William Chen and Chu Gin Soon (1932- ) and Doc Fai Wong are also in the fifth. There are many names, no chinese characters. Interesting question.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 18, 2009)

TaiChiTJ said:


> Xue Sheng, you know more about Yang Tai Chi's various lineages than I do. Recently I acquired a discussion of a short form (not Master Gilman's) and it came with a chapter that lists Yang lineage students starting with Yang Lu Chan. It lists his name as Yang Fu Kui, Lu Chan,, (1799-1872) Founder. There is a Choy Heng Peng (1886-1957). That is a different spelling, so I do not know if that is it.
> 
> Its got the many people listed divided into generations. Choy Kam Man (1924-1994) is under the fifth generation. William Chen and Chu Gin Soon (1932- ) and Doc Fai Wong are also in the fifth. There are many names, no chinese characters. Interesting question.


 
Chu Gin Soon is 5th under Yang Shou Zhong who was his teacher. Doc Fai Wong as far as Taiji is concerned I have my doubts about but he is most certainly Choy Li Fut as was his teacher Hu Yuen-Chou, although Hu Yuen-Chou is allegedly a student of Yang Chengfu but only for a couple of years and again I would need the Chinese character of his name to find out if he was thought of as a student by Yang Chengfu. William Chen...which one? If William CC Chen he was a student of Cheng Manching.

And Yang Fukui (not to be confused with the guy running around today that is or was claiming to be the grandson of Yang Shaohou who most decidedly isn't) was Yang Luchan (Yang Family) 

The problem with looking at the names in pinyin or Wade Giles or English is that they can be spelled wrong that is why the Chinese character is so important when checking lineages. 

If you can post the characters or PM them to me or point me in the direction where I can find them please do.


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