# Olympic Dream is it real or just plain insanity!



## Gorilla (Jul 19, 2010)

This is coming from my perspective as a parent.   Anyone who dreams of winning a Gold Medal at the Olympics at some point in their career with be told that they are crazy for pursuing that dream and that it will never happen.  When I go to Nationals and I see all the Competition and the Politics and how few people actually get to go to Olympics it seems crazy that I would invest the amount of $ that I do on such a long shot.  My kids want to win a Gold Medal at the Olympics(No Doubt). They train 6 days a week from 2 -6 hours a day.  They sacrifice their youth for this dream.  I have told them that I would not do what they do and yet they still pursue it.  The cost to me is $, for them their teenage years.  Why do I allow them do it.  Because as I see it, the benefit of working so hard and being so dedicated and sacrificing so much for an unknown and unlikely reward will in the end build the type of quality human being that will be successful in anything that they decide to pursue in life.  Regardless, if they ever win that GOLD Medal.


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## taekwondodo (Jul 19, 2010)

The lessons of the process and personal development toward a goal and learn how to change the process is priceless.


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## Gorilla (Jul 19, 2010)

taekwondodo said:


> The lessons of the process and personal development toward a goal and learn how to change the process is priceless.



Thanks!!! I was wondering if my point would come across.  The journey is the most important part.  If you fail to meet your final destination but are able to look back and say that you did everything that you could to reach your goal.  You will have gained much more than those who never aspire to greatness or those who are unwilling to sacrifice everything for an uncertain goal.  Sacrifice for the unknown is what separates greatness from mediocrity. This is the lesson I am try to teach my kids.  You must risk much to gain much!


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## terryl965 (Jul 19, 2010)

It is about the journey and it is also about not giving up on your dreams. It has always been a dream that has produce the most for anybody, if it was not for that we would all be a farmer still riding horses in some country beside here. Those that forged a head have made the dream possible for everybody in one way or another. Goriila let them keep going down the right path and see what type of young adults they will make.:asian:


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## ATC (Jul 19, 2010)

I am in the same boat as you Tal. And even though I know it is a long shot. The lessons and habits built on this journey is one that will be carried on in to all that they do. Every time I see your kids and talk to them, them they are very well mannered and very polite. So to me that quality alone is worth it.


Plus if you were not spending time and money on this then it would be something else anyway. If we worried about the money and time then our kids would do nothing. How many kids do we see each day doing just that?


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## taekwondodo (Jul 19, 2010)

My goal in my TKD career was to win a gold medal at the National level.  I mean, to fight a good fight with 2+ fighter in the division and win 1st place.  Back in my 20s and 30s, it was to make top 4 so I can go Team Trial.  I competed in Team Trial in 89, and that was my highest achievement then.

When I competed again in the last 3 years, I received Silver, and Bronzes.  It was close but not Gold.

Until this year, after 25+ years of trying I finally win a Gold in sparring and had 2 great fights.  I fought well, and enjoyed my fights.

So, I have  achieved my goal and can say I can finally retired now....NOT! 

My future goal is the US Poomsae Team, and boy do I have lots of competitions in my division.

Never give up, keep on trying for that goal.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 19, 2010)

You only live once and its important while you're young to persue your dreams. Most dreams are a 'long shot' or they wouldnt be dreams. I would rather work my *** off and never quite get there rather than spending the rest of my life wondering what could have been if Id tried harder. I encourage my kids to work hard at anything they are passionate about because as you get older and the responsibilities become greater there is not always the time to persue your goals.


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## terryl965 (Jul 20, 2010)

Well everyone knows Zachary would like to be a part of the Olympics one day and I for one keep telling him to train and see what happens in a few years. The thing is who is anybody telling someone to forget and do something els, I know top athletes that when they was 12-17 they was average but then it all came together for them and that is one of the greatest feelings ever. Keep dreams alive and well and remember we all have been then done that with something in our lifes.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 20, 2010)

Pursuing dreams is good, but realistic expectations are good too. 

I would say the first issue is whether they are training enough. I remember speaking with Arlene Limas. Here regimine was more like 6-8 hours a day, 6 days a week. 

Then you have the issue of physicality. No matter how hard you train, there are certain natural characteristics that will  help the great become world champions.  If you are 5'6' the NBA is not for you. If you are 6'8" being a professional jockey is not in the cards. 

For TKD it would likely be having the right % of fast twitch muscle fibers aong with other attributes.


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## terryl965 (Jul 20, 2010)

Yes Earl you are right being the right person for the right sport is a choice, we have had spud Webb and others play Basketball when they are small and be a great player but was it so much they was great or they had that little something that made them better, say like determination. I have seen athlete with all the talent in the world but was simply lazy and then I have seen great workers with little talent over come the odds in make it. I have to keep telling myself only those that truely believe can ever make it to the top and training is one of the biggest things for all of them, they must eat, drink, and sleep whatever it is they want to be.


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## TKD_Father (Jul 20, 2010)

Spud Webb isn't the best example, he never won an NBA championship (He may not have even played in an NBA Championship).

Too many politics involved, not enough cohesion. 

If it were in a flowchart form it would be

Are you in Sugarland Tx? --NO--> No Olympics for you
|
YES
|
V
Is your name Lopez? --NO--> No Olympics for you
|
YES
|
V
Good luck in the Olympics


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## terryl965 (Jul 20, 2010)

Spud was use because he made it to the pro's, back then it was not about the Olympics but the pro's remember. In TKD we do not have a pro field so the Olympics would be the same for him.

Yes it is Sugarland or Florida with Moreno but thier are other options if people truely looked into it. But like alot of folks they walk around with blinders on.


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## ATC (Jul 20, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Pursuing dreams is good, but realistic expectations are good too.
> 
> I would say the first issue is whether they are training enough. I remember speaking with Arlene Limas. Here regimine was more like 6-8 hours a day, 6 days a week.
> 
> ...


The thing is to let no one stand in your way. *Cheyenne Lewis* is a great example. I talk to her dad all the time and her story is incredible. She was with Robinsons TKD and was told that she did not have it. She was a kicking bag or shield holder for the so called ones that had it. She was not being trained as they told her she was to clumsy for and awkward for TKD. Well her dad did not take that and left Robinsons and trained her at home for awhile. He then found master Cruz and moved to Manila TKD and then to Givins TKD under Master Givins. She  is now a World Champion (Jr.) and only 14 years old. People tried to crush her dream and told her early on that she did not have what it took. As a kid it would have been really easy for her to just let it be and could have still been there holding bags for someone else. But her dad did not let that happen and made sure he got her to the right people that did not have a limited or blind thinking.

If you want something then go get it. Hard work and dedication will go a long way. Regardless if you have the so called tools for the job or not. Tom Brady of the Patriots was told he did not have the tools to be an NFL QB either. Well, drafted in the 6th round (almost the last round) and 3 Super Bowls later, he is now mentioned with the all time greats.

Everyone has all the fast twitch muscle needed. It is not about the fastest in this sport. I see the fastest lose most often. Fast is not all you need. I say you have to be smart and have heart to make it in this sport. This is the one sport that I think anyone can do and at the top level if you have the right people helping you.


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## terryl965 (Jul 20, 2010)

Well I know one thing and it is this, talent is great but being able to train and gain all the great qualities that comes from it is a life long journey. For every single person that does not make it will become better for trying. In closing I just wanted to say that some people do not like what I say and that is fine but remember this is a board to express ones true feelings about subject matter,


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 20, 2010)

ATC said:


> Everyone has all the fast twitch muscle needed. .


 
Everyone may have all the fast twitch muscle needed, the issue is whether or not everyone has all that is needed to be a world champion.

It's kind of like saying everyone can sing. It's far diiferent than everyone being able to sing something that people will want to spend money on.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 20, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Everyone may have all the fast twitch muscle needed, the issue is whether or not everyone has all that is needed to be a world champion.
> 
> It's kind of like saying everyone can sing. It's far different than everyone being able to sing something that people will want to spend money on.


Or whether or not one has a successful career in blues, country, pop, rock, jazz, folk, metal, Broadway musicals, soul, or opera.  Certain vocal characteristics are very desirable in some of these genres but not so much in others.  

The degree of training and the type of training also differs.

Likewise, certain body types tend to lend themselves better to certain physical activities.  Mine, for example, is not a desirable body type for sumo, NFL football, or horse racing.

Daniel


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## Gorilla (Jul 20, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Pursuing dreams is good, but realistic expectations are good too.
> 
> I would say the first issue is whether they are training enough. I remember speaking with Arlene Limas. Here regimine was more like 6-8 hours a day, 6 days a week.
> 
> ...



I know Arlene Limas I have been to Spain and Holland with her on AAU trips.  She is a great inspiration to my daughter.  If you hear her story and road to Olympic Gold you know that she had to get over many hurdles just to compete.

She knows my daughter and has expressed the she has the ability/ desire to make it.

Arlene said that you have to have the desire to not let anything get in the way!!!  Arlene had to battle in the courts not just the ring!!!


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 20, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> This is coming from my perspective as a parent. Anyone who dreams of winning a Gold Medal at the Olympics at some point in their career with be told that they are crazy for pursuing that dream and that it will never happen. When I go to Nationals and I see all the Competition and the Politics and how few people actually get to go to Olympics it seems crazy that I would invest the amount of $ that I do on such a long shot. My kids want to win a Gold Medal at the Olympics(No Doubt). They train 6 days a week from 2 -6 hours a day. They sacrifice their youth for this dream. I have told them that I would not do what they do and yet they still pursue it. The cost to me is $, for them their teenage years. Why do I allow them do it. Because as I see it, the benefit of working so hard and being so dedicated and sacrificing so much for an unknown and unlikely reward will in the end build the type of quality human being that will be successful in anything that they decide to pursue in life. Regardless, if they ever win that GOLD Medal.


 
- One comes to be of just such stuff as that which ones mind is set  The Upanishads

- If you want something deep in your heart you can accomplish it, even if it seems impossible, even if the people around you tell you to your face that its impossible. Just by having the goal, youre already a winner and well on your way up the inner mountain  - Chuck Norris 

- If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. - Bruce Lee


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## Bones (Jul 20, 2010)

Making the olympics through TKD in the usa?  Based on the number of slots available, the politics, etc., it may be easier to switch sports.  Watching the olympics there are plenty of other sports that are allowed to take bigger groups -- not the limited 2 + 2 that we have.  Not fair buts its what we are left with being one of the latest additions.

Winning at such a level would be a great "wow" factor but you know what, it is all about trying and learning what it takes in life.  If you never try because you are afraid of losing -- well then just crawl in that hole because everything in life is a test  school, work, relationships.  If you dont try you have guaranteed failure.  If you try but dont succeed to your expected level  what mistakes, if any, did you make?  What can be done to improve your weak points, improve you score, etc.  

For me TKD and having friends or family compete, its about supporting the ones who participate -- for them knowing that we will do our part, so focus on your part.  Its a learning experience and hopefully the kids who do it will learn something useful for those times when we are not there with them or eventually gone.  The Olympics would be nice but you only think of that fool from cuba to remember that its not a measure of everything.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 20, 2010)

TKD_Father said:


> Spud Webb isn't the best example, he never won an NBA championship (He may not have even played in an NBA Championship).


Example of 'what?' is the operative question.  I think that the point was that simply being physically unlikely should not prevent someone from going after their dreams.  Spud Webb won the NBA Slam Dunk contest in 1986, no mean feat when one if 5'7".  Dunking the ball in the basket is a contest where height offers a major advantage.  

Making an NBA pro team at 5'7" is also impressive given that the average height is around 6'7", which makes me, at 6'4", a little on the short side.

I think that Terry's point was along the lines of 'it aint the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog'.

Anyone who makes it to the olympics has worked their backside off.  That is a given.  Chances are, all are immensely gifted with a natural talent, which is usually what grabs the attention of coaches early on.  But talent can only take you so far and if everyone is working hard, there are other qualities that can come into play.

Not to mention that I know immensely talented people (outside of TKD) who are unable to apply themselves in the necessary way to take any advantage of their ability and some very untalented people who's hard work, dedication and determination took them far further than they ever thought possible.



TKD_Father said:


> Too many politics involved, not enough cohesion.
> 
> If it were in a flowchart form it would be
> 
> ...


Is it *really* that bad?  Not debating you.  I mean, maybe it is.  I don't know.  I'd rather hope that it isn't.

I kind of see the olympics and taekwondo as a bit of a bottleneck, given that there are fewer seats on the olympic team than on even one pro sports team.  There are likely more people equal to or better than the Lopez family than there are available seats and I think that it is a given that there is a strong political element in addition to talent, skill, and determination, to getting your athletes on the team.  

With no 'pro' league as one has in the NBA, NFL, or boxing, the olympics it.  On the other hand, one can have a solid and perhaps long career in pro sports, even without playing for a championship team, making pretty good money to boot.  Certainly more than the average TKD school owner, the only real 'professional' career for a taekwondoist with any viability at this point in time.  

Daniel


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## ATC (Jul 20, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Or whether or not one has a successful career in blues, country, pop, rock, jazz, folk, metal, Broadway musicals, soul, or opera. Certain vocal characteristics are very desirable in some of these genres but not so much in others.
> 
> The degree of training and the type of training also differs.
> 
> ...


No this is not the case. Football has all shapes and sizes. You may not be a nose tackle but you may fit at the position of Wide Receiver. Even in Sumo you have all shapes and sizes. No you would not be a heavy weight but that is not all there is in Sumo. Actually Sumo has changed and more fit and muscled types are getting into the sport and winning over the same weight fat guys.

TKD in not limited to one size fits all. That is why there are different weight categories.

Even in horse racing. It just happens that that sport has a one size is best. But many sports don't. Plus in horse racing it is the horse, the jockey is just there to guide the thing and weight as less a possible for the horse. If the horse could get around the track and run full out without being whiped the jockey would not be needed.

Again I see this as limited thinking. TKD and most sports have categories that make the sport all inclusive. Even basketball. You don't have to be 7 foot tall to play the sport. Only the centers have to. There are point guards and shooting guards that can be as short as 5'5" Spud, Muggsy, and some others have proven that.

Also the singing analogy has been debunked by Daniel as well. Because if you cannot sing by standards of one genera then there are others. Can sing country then sing pop. Can't sing pop then rap. Can't rap the sing folk. You can still be successful in singing even if you can't sing.

Most singers today can really sing. Studios do wonders with your voice. And when on tour, anyone can sing to a track that over shadows your voice. Smoke and mirrors but it works. Millie Vanillie showed us that.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 20, 2010)

ATC said:


> No this is not the case. Football has all shapes and sizes. You may not be a nose tackle but you may fit at the position of Wide Receiver. Even in Sumo you have all shapes and sizes. No you would not be a heavy weight but that is not all there is in Sumo. Actually Sumo has changed and more fit and muscled types are getting into the sport and winning over the same weight fat guys.
> 
> TKD in not limited to one size fits all. That is why there are different weight categories.
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree.  Just to clarify my post, when I say that certain body types lend themselves to given endeavors, I do not mean to say that they are required or that it is impossible for those with either different body types or different physical characteristics to excel.  

As far as sumo goes, how about tall slim lanky guys?

Daniel


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## ATC (Jul 20, 2010)

Bones said:


> Making the olympics through TKD in the usa? Based on the number of slots available, the politics, etc., it may be easier to switch sports. Watching the olympics there are plenty of other sports that are allowed to take bigger groups -- not the limited 2 + 2 that we have. Not fair buts its what we are left with being one of the latest additions.
> 
> Winning at such a level would be a great "wow" factor but you know what, it is all about trying and learning what it takes in life. If you never try because you are afraid of losing -- well then just crawl in that hole because everything in life is a test  school, work, relationships. If you dont try you have guaranteed failure. If you try but dont succeed to your expected level  what mistakes, if any, did you make? What can be done to improve your weak points, improve you score, etc.
> 
> For me TKD and having friends or family compete, its about supporting the ones who participate -- for them knowing that we will do our part, so focus on your part. Its a learning experience and hopefully the kids who do it will learn something useful for those times when we are not there with them or eventually gone. The Olympics would be nice but you only think of that fool from cuba to remember that its not a measure of everything.


Well it may not be all about the Olympics. The World Championships is actually a higher accolade than the Olympics. All weight catagories are included and more athletes compete. Making it harder to win than the Olympics as you really have to fight all of the best, not just the so called top few. I say strive for the World Championships in your weight and let the Olympics work itself out.

Win Worlds and you may get picked for the Olympics. They don't pick the best fighter for the Olympics. They pick the fighter with the best chance to win. So they may pick you based on a weaker bracket in your division for the Olympics, that's all. Not that you are the best fighter.


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## ATC (Jul 20, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Absolutely agree. Just to clarify my post, when I say that certain body types lend themselves to given endeavors, I do not mean to say that they are required or that it is impossible for those with either different body types or different physical characteristics to excel.
> 
> *As far as sumo goes, how about tall slim lanky guys?*
> 
> Daniel


You got me there.:asian:


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## Fing Fang Foom (Jul 20, 2010)

FFF says; "go for it"!   

_If you don't seek the sun you shall never feel its warmth_


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 20, 2010)

Im just curious (because I know nothing about olmpic style tkd) regarding the politics etc. If you beat everyone you come up against wouldnt you have to make the team or do the referees/umpires score the match so the favourite wins in qualifying? Id like to think that if my kid had never lost a tkd fight and proceeded to beat anyone they put him against then he would have to make the team no different from a tennis tournament, if you win all your games you win the comp. For instance, if I beat steven lopez in qualifying (not that that would ever happen) would they just pick him anyway because of his name? And if so, why have qualifying?


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## Gorilla (Jul 20, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Im just curious (because I know nothing about olmpic style tkd) regarding the politics etc. If you beat everyone you come up against wouldnt you have to make the team or do the referees/umpires score the match so the favourite wins in qualifying? Id like to think that if my kid had never lost a tkd fight and proceeded to beat anyone they put him against then he would have to make the team no different from a tennis tournament, if you win all your games you win the comp. For instance, if I beat steven lopez in qualifying (not that that would ever happen) would they just pick him anyway because of his name? And if so, why have qualifying?



 It is vary dangerous to comment on a public forum in any detail about such matters.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 20, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> It is vary dangerous to comment on a public forum in any detail about such matters.


No worries, I understand where you are coming from. I coach junior sports and I am well aware of the politics. Unfortunately for me I coach team sports so even if a player is light years ahead of the others he could still be left out because they may be looking for a certain team structure and that player may not fit that structure. I would have thought in an individual sport it would be a lot easier because if no one can beat you then it seems obvious that you make the team.


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## Carol (Jul 21, 2010)

I don't know what its like to compete in the martial arts, or to do TKD, or even try for the Olympics.  I do, however, know what it is like to be a talented teenager...my pursuit was music instead of MA.  We are not robbed of anything by hours of practice.  It is what we love to do.  We aren't robbed of anything by not being with our school friends...going out to perform means we make new ones, or see friends we wouldn't normally see except when getting together to do our art. We aren't robbed by pressure or competition.   The hours of practice should stand as a pretty good statement that we are driven people.

We get robbed from parents that want us to do what they (as parents) should be doing for themselves.    The odds of financial success in the arts are worse than junk bonds.   To push a teen in to the arts _expecting _that will pay your retirement or offer up a free ride through to college is irresponsible.  What's that old office joke?  "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."   

Its also not responsible to think that arts or athletics will immunize a teen  from bad judgment or trouble.   The arts gives us an invaluable identity outside of school and home that makes it far easier to stay away from ordinary trouble....but when trouble finds us, it carries a flavor that adds to the temptation.  I'd wager that an athlete's temptation to use diuretics to cut weight or other drugs enhance performance is about equal to a musicians temptation to take stimulants to stay up late and practice or other drugs to open one's mind to a new experience, like so many famous songwriters did.

Its natural for an enthusiastic teen to believe in "Rocky" and "Flashdance" stories of artistic pursuits being the answer that's all that's needed in your life.  But its a job of the parents to make sure the teen is getting a proper education (without their grades slipping) and making sure they have a fallback plan that they can pursue....even if a bad injury or freak accident takes part of their physical talent away from them.

Pursuing the arts is kind of like voluntarily getting on a plane, and knowing that just about everyone on that plane is going to be pushed out the door...except the last person, who is going to win a big cash prize.  Is it wise to skimp on skydiving classes?  Is it wise to skimp on the quality of one's parachute?  Is it wise to depend on being the lucky person that wins the cash prize?  

For a talented teen...their academics are their skydiving classes and the fallback plan is the quality of their parachute.   The ones that skimp on their classes can flounder dangerously in the air.  The ones that skimp on the quality of their parachute may know what they have to do, but don't have the resources to do it. Luck is no substitute for preparation.

But the ones that are prepared?   If they are prepared, then there is little difference between the students that are trying seriously for the prize, and the students that know they may not win the prize but are getting on board anyway. They won't be immune to turbulence, but they will have the skills to float as gracefully as they can to whatever their destination will be.  Those skills will last a lifetime....with or without the gold medal, the record contract, or that big Hollywood deal.


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## teekin (Jul 21, 2010)

ATC said:


> No this is not the case. Football has all shapes and sizes. You may not be a nose tackle but you may fit at the position of Wide Receiver. Even in Sumo you have all shapes and sizes. No you would not be a heavy weight but that is not all there is in Sumo. Actually Sumo has changed and more fit and muscled types are getting into the sport and winning over the same weight fat guys.
> 
> TKD in not limited to one size fits all. That is why there are different weight categories.
> 
> ...


 
Sooooo, you have ridden a fit and tallented race horse on an open track?  Nope, no skill needed there. :shrug: 

Lori


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## ATC (Jul 21, 2010)

Grendel308 said:


> Sooooo, you have ridden a fit and tallented race horse on an open track? Nope, no skill needed there. :shrug:
> 
> Lori


I've ridden horses. These light small people have less mass and are suited for the job, yes. However the horse still does the work not the person. Yes they have to be able to stay on the power fit and talented race horse, but that fit and talented race horse still is the one they workout, inject the steroids into, and train to run. Not the jockey.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 21, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> I know Arlene Limas I have been to Spain and Holland with her on AAU trips. She is a great inspiration to my daughter. If you hear her story and road to Olympic Gold you know that she had to get over many hurdles just to compete.
> 
> She knows my daughter and has expressed the she has the ability/ desire to make it.
> 
> Arlene said that you have to have the desire to not let anything get in the way!!! Arlene had to battle in the courts not just the ring!!!


 
Didn't have to read the book to know the story. I am from Chicago and was familiar with the Martial Art scene  she was competing before sh was in TKD, and was a aware of what she was going thru as it was happening.  As far as I was concerned the obstacles placed in her path was just more typical BS from the powers that be at the time.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 21, 2010)

ATC said:


> .______ sing ________ rap. .


 
These two words do not belong in the same sentance. 



"We can't sing and we call rap;
You may think this is music but it's really cr*p"

See, that's how it got the name. Someone heard it and said it's the C word and the other poor shmo misunderstood and dropped the C.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 21, 2010)

ATC said:


> Also the singing analogy has been debunked by Daniel as well. Because if you cannot sing by standards of one genera then there are others. Can sing country then sing pop. Can't sing pop then rap. Can't rap the sing folk. You can still be successful in singing even if you can't sing.
> 
> .


 
Actulay I think the analogy prevails. It's more like your body makeup may not fit TKD at the elite level, but it may fit something else. An abundance of slow twitc fibers fits slow power based activities.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 21, 2010)

ATC said:


> Well it may not be all about the Olympics. The World Championships is actually a higher accolade than the Olympics. All weight catagories are included and more athletes compete. Making it harder to win than the Olympics as you really have to fight all of the best, not just the so called top few. I say strive for the World Championships in your weight and let the Olympics work itself out.
> 
> Win Worlds and you may get picked for the Olympics. They don't pick the best fighter for the Olympics. They pick the fighter with the best chance to win. So they may pick you based on a weaker bracket in your division for the Olympics, that's all. Not that you are the best fighter.


Agreed, but making it to the world championships does not enable you to 'make it' professionally.  The olympics can net you the potential for much greater opportunity.  And like mineral wealth, it is perceived as more valuable because it is less plentiful: fewer seats and only happens once every four years.

But aside from that, my point was that there is no pro league.  You cannot 'make it' as a taekwondoist and earn a living as you can in football, baseball, basketball, or golf.  Not unless you have some kind of sponsorship or go and open your school.

Daniel


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## Gorilla (Jul 21, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Didn't have to read the book to know the story. I am from Chicago and was familiar with the Martial Art scene  she was competing before sh was in TKD, and was a aware of what she was going thru as it was happening.  As far as I was concerned the obstacles placed in her path was just more typical BS from the powers that be at the time.



Lots of BS!!! Allot was going on in Chicago TKD during that time!!!!Some great!!! Some really bad!!!!  A Master Landed in Jail for some pretty bad transgressions.  
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar(not the basketball player).  The TKD trainer!!!!!


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## TKD_Father (Jul 21, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Is it *really* that bad?  Not debating you.  I mean, maybe it is.  I don't know.  I'd rather hope that it isn't.
> 
> Daniel



Half of the US Olympic TKD participants since it became a medal sport have been named Lopez.


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## ATC (Jul 21, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Actulay I think the analogy prevails. It's more like your body makeup may not fit TKD at the elite level, but it may fit something else. An abundance of slow twitc fibers fits slow power based activities.


I have to disagree. if you have superior footwork and timing you can over come someone with more fast twitch muscle fibers. Most times speed is an illusion. I have seen some awesome fighters that many thought were fast but in reality it was all about footwork and timing.

Fast as lightning and bad footwork = telegraphed moves, which = bad timing.


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## ATC (Jul 21, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> These two words do not belong in the same sentance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All subjective. To you yes. To others no.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 21, 2010)

TKD_Father said:


> Half of the US Olympic TKD participants since it became a medal sport have been named Lopez.


have they been successful?


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## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2010)

Grendel308 said:


> Sooooo, you have ridden a fit and tallented race horse on an open track? Nope, no skill needed there. :shrug:
> 
> Lori


 

Nah no skill at all, no dedication watching your weight, no riding out early every morning on the gallops, no fitness needed, no talent. Anyone can do it can't they Lori? ROFLMAO at the horse doing the work!

Inject steroids eh, I that's a serious allegation to make, ATC. If I made that allegation about TKD Olympic people you'd be howling. Perhaps you'd like to take that allegation to the British Racing Board, I think they'd be happy to take compensation from you for false allegations and libel. 
My daughter has worked for leading racehorse trainers for nearly ten years now,having ridden and worked with horses from age three, she'll happily tell you about working with race horses and how it's one of the most dangerous jobs going. She's had two serious accidents, one where she was caught in the starting gates when the horse reared, she was saved by one og the loaders quick reasctions when he scooped her up and out and again she was injured when a horse caught it's headcollar in it's stall, as she went to realese it the horse spun and crushed her against the wall, half ton of horse pinning her to it. if the horses were that clever that wouldn't have haven't and they wouldn't need jockeys.

We don't go telling you that TKD is easy and doesn't need any work done by its people so don't you dare tell us who are far more knowledgable than yourself, who works in horse racing and who doesn't. My daughter has also trained and broken in horses for the Royal Dubai Racing club in Dubai where they valued her experience and knowlege but it would seem yours is greater? Don't disrespect something you clearly know nothing about and use it as an anology for martial arts, oh and my daughter does them as well, she's done karate since she was 8 and now fights amateur MMA. 

for Lori...Katie on Always Cruising.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 22, 2010)

ATC said:


> I've ridden horses. These light small people have less mass and are suited for the job, yes. However the horse still does the work not the person. Yes they have to be able to stay on the power fit and talented race horse, but that fit and talented race horse still is the one they workout, inject the steroids into, and train to run. Not the jockey.


The horse does the work of getting around the track in the same way that a race car does the work around the track.  Both rider and driver are extremely important in both sports.  The only difference is that the car has no motivation do drive itself.  But once the accelerator is depressed, the car, like the horse, must be controlled and urged around the track.  The pacing is important; I know that it is way more than just running the horse or the car flat out.

There is a reason that there is a horsemanship skill and there were people throughout history that were able to dominate and rule over their neighbors because they were better at it.  Knights were trained from childhood to ride, and it made a huge difference in a culture where for noblemen, hunting and warfare were all done from horseback.

Kind of off topic so I'll stop, but I think you get where I'm coming from.

Daniel


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## TKD_Father (Jul 22, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> have they been successful?



Absolutely, they sell and endorse MANY products.

*Off-topic about the horse/car racing... I like the analogy. Thing to remember is that it's not just the rider/driver. There's an entire team dedicated to ensuring the horse/car are in top shape. In more "athletic" events it's strictly the competitor. They have coaches, advisers, hypnotists, therapists, etc... but when they are on the mat/floor/air it's just them.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 22, 2010)

TKD_Father said:


> Absolutely, they sell and endorse MANY products.


Bingo!  

This is why I say that the olympics are "it."  Not because it is a guarantee of fighting the best fighters period, but because it is the closest thing to going 'pro' that you will be able to attain in taekwondo.

Daniel


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## ATC (Jul 22, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The horse does the work of getting around the track in the same way that a race car does the work around the track. Both rider and driver are extremely important in both sports. The only difference is that the car has no motivation do drive itself. But once the accelerator is depressed, the car, like the horse, must be controlled and urged around the track. The pacing is important; I know that it is way more than just running the horse or the car flat out.
> 
> There is a reason that there is a horsemanship skill and there were people throughout history that were able to dominate and rule over their neighbors because they were better at it. Knights were trained from childhood to ride, and it made a huge difference in a culture where for noblemen, hunting and warfare were all done from horseback.
> 
> ...


All understood. But regardless of how fit the jockey is the horse is the athlete. I understand that you need some level of fittness to ride the horse but one jockeys ultra fittness level vs. another so so level won't make that much difference. It is more like coaching the horse. The better person in tune with the athelet will be the better jockey. Not the best fit jockey.

The same can be said about a racecar driver. Yes they need some level of fittness but in the end it comes down to how well they know the car and a good crew cheif and pit crew, not the level of fittness by any means.


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## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2010)

ATC said:


> All understood. But regardless of how fit the jockey is the horse is the athlete. I understand that you need some level of fittness to ride the horse but one jockeys ultra fittness level vs. another so so level won't make that much difference. It is more like coaching the horse. The better person in tune with the athelet will be the better jockey. Not the best fit jockey.
> 
> The same can be said about a racecar driver. Yes they need some level of fittness but in the end it comes down to how well they know the car and a good crew cheif and pit crew, not the level of fittness by any means.


 

Some level of fitness? Wow you really don't know much! They are extremely fit and yes it matters immensely how fit they are, how easy do you think it is to keep a half ton horse running and jumping? How easy to do that for six to ten races in a row? Try doing the Grand National or the Kentucky Derby with 'some' fitness! It may look easy to you but frankly so does Olympic TKD, are you going to tell me they aren't fit then? 
Don't belittle other sportsmen,you would be annoyed if I disparaged TKD people. I know a lot of jockeys, they spend time doing weights, running and boxing. They easily match any pro MMA fighter for fitness.

http://www.helium.com/items/639898-what-makes-a-great-horse-racing-jockey


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## ATC (Jul 22, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Some level of fitness? Wow you really don't know much! They are extremely fit and yes it matters immensely how fit they are, how easy do you think it is to keep a half ton horse running and jumping? How easy to do that for six to ten races in a row? Try doing the Grand National or the Kentucky Derby with 'some' fitness! It may look easy to you but frankly so does Olympic TKD, are you going to tell me they aren't fit then?
> Don't belittle other sportsmen,you would be annoyed if I disparaged TKD people. I know a lot of jockeys, they spend time doing weights, running and boxing. They easily match any pro MMA fighter for fitness.
> 
> http://www.helium.com/items/639898-what-makes-a-great-horse-racing-jockey


Don't take some level of fitness as able to just get up. Yes they are fit, but one being more fit than the other is not winning factor. That is why there are female and male jockeys that compete against one another. You won't find this in any other sport, not even golf. You need some level of fitness. There is a minimum level of fitness needed. There is a point where the fitness of the jockey won't matter at all. There will be no edge or advantaged gained. However with the horse itself the fitter the better. That is why they inject them with steroids and work them out. That is why they need a good pedigree as well. That is why everyone is looking for the best horse. That is why the money is in horse breeding not jockey building. You want an experienced jockey yes. That is why you see some old jockey's still winning. Are they as fit as the young jockeys? No way. I have see jockeys in their 40's still winning over jockeys in their 20's and 30's. Yes some level of fitness (which is fit) but not ultimate fitness.


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## ATC (Jul 22, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Nah no skill at all, no dedication watching your weight, no riding out early every morning on the gallops, no fitness needed, no talent. Anyone can do it can't they Lori? ROFLMAO at the horse doing the work!
> 
> Inject steroids eh, I that's a serious allegation to make, *ATC. If I made that allegation about TKD Olympic people you'd be howling.* Perhaps you'd like to take that allegation to the British Racing Board, I think they'd be happy to take compensation from you for false allegations and libel.
> My daughter has worked for leading racehorse trainers for nearly ten years now,having ridden and worked with horses from age three, *she'll happily tell you about working with race horses and how it's one of the most dangerous jobs going*. She's had two serious accidents, one where she was caught in the starting gates when the horse reared, she was saved by one og the loaders quick reasctions when he scooped her up and out and again she was injured when a horse caught it's headcollar in it's stall, as she went to realese it the horse spun and crushed her against the wall, half ton of horse pinning her to it. *if the horses were that clever that wouldn't have haven't and they wouldn't need jockeys*.
> ...


Statements in bold above responded to. Um...no one said that the jockeys were on steroids, but rather the horses. Or some equivalent of for animals. If you think they are not then this is for your edification http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/28/sports/othersports/28horses.html

I don't think I ever said that it was not dangerous. Hell being a mail man can be dangerous. Anytime you deal with animals there is an element of danger involved.

Already said that the jockey is needed to get the horse around the track and at the correct pace and speed.

That last statement did not complete your thought. So I am not sure what you are saying. If it is that I said horse racing was easy then again you are just putting words out there that I did not say. I said that the athlete is the horse. Put a spider monkey on my back and have me race against others with spider monkeys on their back and the monkey will need some level of fitness but I need to be in the best shape possible not the monkey.

And please don't take the monkey analogy the wrong way. I am simply using that as reference or comparison of one smaller animal *riding* another larger animal. I make no reference of any jockey being a monkey or monkey like in any way.


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## Gorilla (Jul 22, 2010)

From "Olympic Dream is it real or just plain insanity"

to Horse Racing and Spider Monkeys!!!!

A little off topic but very fun....


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## ATC (Jul 22, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> From "Olympic Dream is it real or just plain insanity"
> 
> to Horse Racing and Spider Monkeys!!!!
> 
> A little off topic but very fun....


Thanks for the laugh.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 22, 2010)

ATC said:


> All understood. But regardless of how fit the jockey is the horse is the athlete. I understand that you need some level of fittness to ride the horse but one jockeys ultra fittness level vs. another so so level won't make that much difference. It is more like coaching the horse. The better person in tune with the athelet will be the better jockey. Not the best fit jockey.
> 
> The same can be said about a racecar driver. Yes they need some level of fittness but in the end it comes down to how well they know the car and a good crew cheif and pit crew, not the level of fittness by any means.



Yes, but I was not thinking solely of fitness, but of the combination of fitness and overall skill, not to mention mental fitness.

To connect this back (and get back onto) the topic, if fitness were the only thing needed to make it to the olympics, it would radically alter the focus of training.  But it is the combination of both physical fitness, mental fitness, skills, and experience of the athlete coupled with coaching that make the difference.

Daniel


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## ATC (Jul 22, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, but I was not thinking solely of fitness, but of the combination of fitness and overall skill, not to mention mental fitness.
> 
> To connect this back (and get back onto) the topic, if fitness were the only thing needed to make it to the olympics, it would radically alter the focus of training. But it is the combination of both physical fitness, mental fitness, skills, and experience of the athlete coupled with coaching that make the difference.
> 
> Daniel


Yes on all aspects. But one will try to be as fit as can be. The more fit the better as is the case for most sports. That is why people cheat and take steroids. To add that little extra that can't be obtained by natural means. It is the edge factor that the athlete is looking for. If it did not work then they would not do it. All things eaqual Barry Bonds never hits 73 home runs, Mark Macguire nevers hits 68, and Sammy Sosa never hits 66. That last little bit extra physical push (by means of something they could never obtain natrually) gave them that edge.

They each had enough of all the components you mentioned and they all reached their physical peak. So to go beyond they enhanced to push beyond their top or max performance.

But yes you are correct. The jockey needs a combination of things but in the end you still need the best horse posible. The jockey can't make the athlete (horse) any faster.

However in TKD the individual is the athlete and there are many more factors than just being fit or even fast that can help you get to the top. When the human is the athlete the equation to the top is much more than physical alone and he and he alone is responsible for making it or not.


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## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2010)

Horses on steroids? really? I knew that was what you meant and yes you are still insulting. Horses here aren't on steroids maybe where you are they are but they aren't here. The Horseracing Board of Control here is incredibly vigilant and drugs testing is very strict. I can't believe you are arguing from such a point of knowing very little about it! Still ignorance is bliss so they say. I'll just get back to my horses, sometimes they are more intelligent. 
If you want to talk about cheating you just need to look at Olympic TKD for blatant examples. Certainly not a sport I'd be proud to boast I took part in. They screwed the British team for sure.


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## ATC (Jul 23, 2010)

Not my intent to be insulting. Remember this is a big world and the UK is not the world. I live in the US and that is where my point of reference is coming from. You should not take everything so personal. I did not make my statement with you in mind, yet you react like someone said something to you specifically.

I don't live in the UK and you know this yet you make your assumptions as if I do and if I am directing them towards you. Not sure why you do this.

I could see if you said something like "Wow really?! They use steroids on horsed in the US? We don't over here. They banned that some time ago". But you attack me and twist my statements like I was being specific to you. Then add some things that I did not even say or even imply. I was not even thinking about you but simply making a general statement to someone else attempting to make my point on a topic. No one is attacking you or even directing anything towards you. I thought we got past this and understood this.

If you feel insulted I can't help that. I said nothing insulting towards you. My statements are based on what is going on here and here alone. Steroids in race horses are common place here. As far as who or what is the athlete the jockey or the horse, well we just disagree. Should be no hard feeling about that.


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## mook jong man (Jul 23, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Nah no skill at all, no dedication watching your weight, no riding out early every morning on the gallops, no fitness needed, no talent. Anyone can do it can't they Lori? ROFLMAO at the horse doing the work!
> 
> Inject steroids eh, I that's a serious allegation to make, ATC. If I made that allegation about TKD Olympic people you'd be howling. Perhaps you'd like to take that allegation to the British Racing Board, I think they'd be happy to take compensation from you for false allegations and libel.
> My daughter has worked for leading racehorse trainers for nearly ten years now,having ridden and worked with horses from age three, she'll happily tell you about working with race horses and how it's one of the most dangerous jobs going. She's had two serious accidents, one where she was caught in the starting gates when the horse reared, she was saved by one og the loaders quick reasctions when he scooped her up and out and again she was injured when a horse caught it's headcollar in it's stall, as she went to realese it the horse spun and crushed her against the wall, half ton of horse pinning her to it. if the horses were that clever that wouldn't have haven't and they wouldn't need jockeys.
> ...


 
My name is Sheik Yabooty of Dubai , I am very much wishing to perhaps purchase this beautiful young lady and her mighty steed.

My people will be in touch with you Tez3 oh mother of beautiful one , a thousand thank you's.


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## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> My name is Sheik Yabooty of Dubai , I am very much wishing to perhaps purchase this beautiful young lady and her mighty steed.
> 
> My people will be in touch with you Tez3 oh mother of beautiful one , a thousand thank you's.


 

I have to warn you she is a high earner and would need to be kept in the manner she's become accustomed to! If you are feeling brave pm me and I'll point you in the direction of her FB thingy. She's also very much not amused at the comments made here by ATC, a load of bollocks was her pithy comment!

ATC, you may be in America but the horse racing worlds headquarters is in England, the records of *all* racehorses are kept here, not America. Weatherbys maintain the founding thoroughbreds breed register. The best yards, trainers and breeders are here. Americans send their horses here stud as well as train as do the Saudis, Europeans and the Dubai Royal family. We have the British Racing School here which is international and to which people come from all over the world to train. Quite simply the racing industry is worth millions of pounds and is an international industry run from the UK not America. I've been involved in the industry a long time and I see no need to disapage one sport in an effort to talk up another so yes I will challenge you.Telling the truth whatever the subject is never wrong. I don't know either why you think people in their forties can't be as fit as those in their twenties, I know many martial artists, soldiers, athletes etc who can give the younger ones a good run for their money.

I notice you overlooked my comment about the cheating prevalent in Olympic TKD, it's so bad I believe the British are having a hard time finding people who want to compete in London in 2012, why spend all that time effort and money so that when you obviously score it can be ignored and you lose? Clearly insanity.


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## terryl965 (Jul 23, 2010)

I was wondering if we could get back on topic about the Olympic dream of TKD athletes. 

I talk to Zachary my 16 year old and this is his take, his chances are 1 1,000,000,000 of making it but what would he be if he did not try and follow hios dreams since he was 7 year old. He does not feel if he cannot make it a failure but instead a winner because he did try and get thier. I know he is a pretty smart boy and he makes meproud all of the time.


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## ATC (Jul 23, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I have to warn you she is a high earner and would need to be kept in the manner she's become accustomed to! If you are feeling brave pm me and I'll point you in the direction of her FB thingy. She's also very much not amused at the comments made here by ATC, a load of bollocks was her pithy comment!
> 
> ATC, you may be in America but the horse racing worlds headquarters is in England, the records of *all* racehorses are kept here, not America. Weatherbys maintain the founding thoroughbreds breed register. The best yards, trainers and breeders are here. Americans send their horses here stud as well as train as do the Saudis, Europeans and the Dubai Royal family. We have the British Racing School here which is international and to which people come from all over the world to train. Quite simply the racing industry is worth millions of pounds and is an international industry run from the UK not America. I've been involved in the industry a long time and I see no need to disapage one sport in an effort to talk up another so yes I will challenge you.Telling the truth whatever the subject is never wrong. I don't know either why you think people in their forties can't be as fit as those in their twenties, I know many martial artists, soldiers, athletes etc who can give the younger ones a good run for their money.
> 
> I notice you overlooked my comment about the cheating prevalent in Olympic TKD, it's so bad I believe the British are having a hard time finding people who want to compete in London in 2012, why spend all that time effort and money so that when you obviously score it can be ignored and you lose? Clearly insanity.


None of what you said means anything. The US is still different than the UK. Steroids still exist in the US (truth be told). And as far as Truth, if it aint math then there is only interpretation, not truth. Just cause you say it is so doesn't make it so.

I did not ignore anything. You made your statement and that is that. There is cheating in all sports. Get over it. I saw plenty of bad calls in the past World Cup. Oh well. It happens. Won't stop the World Cup from being played in the next 4 years. There will always be bad calls and cheating. Just the way it is. Do your best and hope to overcome it.

*But keeping on topic.* Those so called cheated ones made it to the Olympics. You even got one fighter over there that KO'd the great Steven Lopez (not in the Olympics, but still). So looks like he overcame took matters into his own hands (took it away from the judges) and prevailed. This is what all that want to be on top need to do. Control their own destiny. Don't let anyone or anything stand in their way. Making the Olympics is a great task in any sport let alone TKD, so keep pushing forward as you will have some setbacks but overcoming is the key. Don't just give up. If you make it then great. If not then at least you put up your best shot.


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## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2010)

ATC said:


> None of what you said means anything. The US is still different than the UK. Steroids still exist in the US (truth be told). And as far as Truth, if it aint math then there is only interpretation, not truth. Just cause you say it is so doesn't make it so.
> 
> I did not ignore anything. You made your statement and that is that. There is cheating in all sports. Get over it. I saw plenty of bad calls in the past World Cup. Oh well. It happens. Won't stop the World Cup from being played in the next 4 years. There will always be bad calls and cheating. Just the way it is. Do your best and hope to overcome it.
> 
> *But keeping on topic.* Those so called cheated ones made it to the Olympics. You even got one fighter over there that KO'd the great Steven Lopez (not in the Olympics, but still). So looks like he overcame took matters into his own hands (took it away from the judges) and prevailed. This is what all that want to be on top need to do. Control their own destiny. Don't let anyone or anything stand in their way. Making the Olympics is a great task in any sport let alone TKD, so keep pushing forward as you will have some setbacks but overcoming is the key. Don't just give up. If you make it then great. If not then at least you put up your best shot.


 

My opinion of Olympic TKD is that it's laughable and the fact that the Olympic judges cheat competitiors out of their rightful places on the podium doesn't help at all. Whats the point of getting to the Olympics if the judges won't score you points and make sure that only certain people win. All this stuff and nonsense about destiny etc when all that will happen is that young peoples hearts will be broken after they've done everything right and that is criminal. We've already heard that only one organisation has the 'rights' to send people to the Olympics, hardly fair is it? In fact nothing is fair at all, it's not a dream it's a nightmare. Making it to the Olympics isn't the be all and end all, a great many people in the world don't care a jot about the Olympics. Just because America says it's true doesn't make it so does it?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 23, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> My opinion of Olympic TKD is that it's laughable


How do you mean?  The sport itself (technically WTF Sport Taekwondo) or all of the nonsense that goes with being in the olympics?  



Tez3 said:


> and the fact that the Olympic judges cheat competitiors out of their rightful places on the podium doesn't help at all. Whats the point of getting to the Olympics if the judges won't score you points and make sure that only certain people win. All this stuff and nonsense about destiny etc when all that will happen is that young peoples hearts will be broken after they've done everything right and that is criminal. We've already heard that only one organisation has the 'rights' to send people to the Olympics, hardly fair is it? In fact nothing is fair at all, it's not a dream it's a nightmare. Making it to the Olympics isn't the be all and end all, a great many people in the world don't care a jot about the Olympics.


Well, the olympics are huge business. Not only in terms of money, but in terms of political favor trading. 

No, many people in the world do not care about the olympics. Most in the US really don't. It's full of sports that we don't recognize played by amateur athletes that we've never heard of. The sports that we do recognize and follow generate no interest for us because we already know that the best players aren't playing in them; they're in the pros and the game schedule in US professional leagues is such that going to the olympics would actually hurt the athletes. I am sure that people in other countries have similar observations, the only difference being that the sports and athletes they've never heard of are different than the ones that we've never heard of.

Unfortunately, in amateur sports, the olympics have been for a very long time the only real means of large scale recognition.



Tez3 said:


> Just because America says it's true doesn't make it so does it?


Which America? North, Central, or South?

Daniel


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## ATC (Jul 23, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> How do you mean? The sport itself (technically WTF Sport Taekwondo) or all of the nonsense that goes with being in the olympics?
> 
> 
> Well, the olympics are huge business. Not only in terms of money, but in terms of political favor trading.
> ...


Daniel, how many times have I told you, being level headed in a no no...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.

You have to be one of the few on here that I actually enjoy discussing things with. Even when we disagree it is always personable.


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## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2010)

Daniel, it has to the USA doesn't it? After all they are the ones that brought civilisation MacDonalds, Coke and all the rest ROFL.  All sponsors of the Olympics. The timings of events in the Games have to be timed to catch the television news etc in the States, even to the point of having the marathon run in a hot country at midday! 
Most countries outside the States have heard of the sports though, we have more variety of sports on our television channels plus we have things like the Commonwealth Games, the Asian Games, African Games etc. Do any of you know how your American teams are doing in the Tour de France for example, a great many Europeans can tell you lol! On my television I have seven channels which just have sports on them. In Europe we watch everything from cycling, speed skating, badminton, Judo, athletics, bowls, curling, fencing, darts, cricket, foortball, rugby, Aussie rules etc etc. No TKD though,we do have various MMA fight nights on not American ones though, you have to pay extra for them.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 23, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Daniel, it has to the USA doesn't it? After all they are the ones that brought civilisation MacDonalds, Coke and all the rest ROFL. All sponsors of the Olympics. The timings of events in the Games have to be timed to catch the television news etc in the States, even to the point of having the marathon run in a hot country at midday!


US corporations spent the money, so it is not surprising.  Still, most people here really don't care about the olympics.  They are watched fairly broadly, but mainly to see how "we" are doing.  I generally will not watch the olympics if given a choice.



Tez3 said:


> Most countries outside the States have heard of the sports though, we have more variety of sports on our television channels plus we have things like the Commonwealth Games, the Asian Games, African Games etc. Do any of you know how your American teams are doing in the Tour de France for example, a great many Europeans can tell you lol! On my television I have seven channels which just have sports on them. In Europe we watch everything from cycling, speed skating, badminton, Judo, athletics, bowls, curling, fencing, darts, cricket, foortball, rugby, Aussie rules etc etc. No TKD though,we do have various MMA fight nights on not American ones though, you have to pay extra for them.


Most people in the US have consciousness of competitive cycling pretty much only because of Lance Armstrong.  Soccor (football), has gone to greater lengths to penetrate the US market and has really has not had any great success, which is really weird.  Americans love soccor when their kids are playing, but won't watch it on TV due to the popularity of NFL football, baseball, and basketball.  Even Nascar outranks soccor.

Taekwondo was not televised, at least not in the US, in 2008, and is not at any other time either.  MMA, wrestling, and boxing, however, rate a large viewership.  NFL Football handily outstrips them all... combined.

Daniel


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## Gorilla (Jul 23, 2010)

Do you guys realize that you took a lament from a tired parent and made it into a international debate.  Keep it up I love it.  I love Horse Racing, WTF TKD, MMA
England, all the all the America's, a great debate and of course Spider Monkey's.


I also like long running threads that I started.  My competitive Nature.

I forgot I also love Australia an Mexico(tribute to MANNY)


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## d1jinx (Jul 23, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Taekwondo was not televised, at least not in the US, in 2008, and is not at any other time either. MMA, wrestling, and boxing, however, rate a large viewership. NFL Football handily outstrips them all... combined.
> 
> Daniel


 
I had to watch the tkd matches online.  they streamed most of the fights.  First time and I like it like that.  no commercials, no wasting time watching other matches, skip to the ones you want to see on MY time....

ahhhh technology.

Now had NBC televised it, I would have heard things like "JUDO CHOP" and "double rear round kick with a violent yell to the scoring area" by idiots who dont have a clue about TKD.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 23, 2010)

while we are off topic I'll throw something else out there. Is there another sport other than horse racing that survives soley on the fact that people gamble on it. If you could no longer bet on horses how long would the sport survive? I dont imagine many people would still tune in to watch horses running around in a circle. Whereas, if you could no longer bet on football, soccer, cricket, boxing etc people would still tune in and watch. Its probably why I find horse racing so boring, because I dont gamble.


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> while we are off topic I'll throw something else out there. Is there another sport other than horse racing that survives soley on the fact that people gamble on it. If you could no longer bet on horses how long would the sport survive? I dont imagine many people would still tune in to watch horses running around in a circle. Whereas, if you could no longer bet on football, soccer, cricket, boxing etc people would still tune in and watch. Its probably why I find horse racing so boring, because I dont gamble.


 


The sport doesn't survive on betting at all, the betting companies do of course but racing doesn't. You find it boring because you don't understand it, it's like kata, MMA, polo and to me golf in that if you don't understand it you won't like it. Many people go to the races and never bet. The prize money and sponsorship is what keeps racaing going and a very large dollop of money from Dubai. Going to the races is a social occasion as well as watching horses run ( we don't run in circles here or anywhere else must be an American thing chasing your tail) it's no different from watching athletic races, the steeplechase, sprints, hurdles etc only it's horses. The last I looked people don't bet on human athletes but still go to watch them run.
Keeping it on topic I don't watch Olympic TKD until theres a Brit in it precisely because I find it boring, I find little depth in it, just the kick, your turn to kick, then a kick etc etc. 

Off topic, Lance Armstrong and Tyler Farrer have been unlucky with injuries this year at the Tour but America has world class cyclists who deserve more support and recognition.


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> Do you guys realize that you took a lament from a tired parent and made it into a international debate. Keep it up I love it. I love Horse Racing, WTF TKD, MMA
> England, all the all the America's, a great debate and of course Spider Monkey's.
> 
> 
> ...


 


We do our best! I think it's easy to forget that it's now an international site with many Europeans, Antipodeans, Asians etc now reading and posting ( Bob should be very proud of that achievement, it shows the class MT has). I heard America decribed _by an American_ btw before you all get mad with me, as a very insular place, watching only the news on tv that occurs in their part of the world not even the rest of America. Perhaps by dialogue with others this can be remedied to a certain extent.


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## terryl965 (Jul 24, 2010)

Why don't we bring Tennis and Volleybal as well since they do not get enough support, wait fishing I love but they get no support. I wish we could just love one another and sing happy days are here again, I love hotdogs and fish and chips.....


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Why don't we bring Tennis and Volleybal as well since they do not get enough support, wait fishing I love but they get no support. I wish we could just love one another and sing happy days are here again, I love hotdogs and fish and chips.....


 
You don't have programmes about fishing? We do. It's big business here, loads of support for fishing here on mainstream tv as well as satellite (a whole channel dedicated to country sports in fact) and yes we have volleyball and loads of tennis. There is a lot of support here for a great many sports thats why we don't feel isolated as martial artists. Look at any leisure/sports centres here and you will find a great many activities going on including many different martial arts.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 24, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> while we are off topic I'll throw something else out there. Is there another sport other than horse racing that survives soley on the fact that people gamble on it. If you could no longer bet on horses how long would the sport survive? *I dont imagine many people would still tune in to watch horses running around in a circle.* Whereas, if you could no longer bet on football, soccer, cricket, boxing etc people would still tune in and watch. Its probably why I find horse racing so boring, because I dont gamble.


Then how do you explain the popularity of NASCAR?  

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 24, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> We do our best! I think it's easy to forget that it's now an international site with many Europeans, Antipodeans, Asians etc now reading and posting ( Bob should be very proud of that achievement, it shows the class MT has). *I heard America decribed by an American btw before you all get mad with me, as a very insular place, watching only the news on tv that occurs in their part of the world not even the rest of America.* Perhaps by dialogue with others this can be remedied to a certain extent.



Kind of.  Our evening news and major papers give a broad brush to national news, with most people being most interested in the more localized news.  I think that  the fact that it is a major endeavor for most Americans to get to many parts of the country, let alone foreign countries, is the major reason that  we tend to be that way.  I understand that many Europeans commute to other countries in Europe.  Most Americans have never left the US.  This is mainly due to the size of the country.

I'd gather that there is a level of nationalism that factors in as well.

Daniel


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## mango.man (Jul 24, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Then how do you explain the popularity of NASCAR?
> 
> Daniel



People watch NASCAR for the wrecks, don't let anyone tell you any different.  The chances of a 15 horse wreck is pretty slim.  In NASCAR it is a weekly occurrence.


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2010)

mango.man said:


> People watch NASCAR for the wrecks, don't let anyone tell you any different. *The chances of a 15 horse wreck* is pretty slim. In NASCAR it is a weekly occurrence.


 
Have you ever seen the Grand National? Horrible race, usually horses killed in it.


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## mango.man (Jul 24, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Have you ever seen the Grand National? Horrible race, usually horses killed in it.



I said the chances of a 15 horse wreck *are pretty slim*.  I didn't say it never happens.  In NASCAR you can pretty much count on it happening week after week for 36 weeks out of the year.  And that is why people watch it.

I have no idea what the TV ratings are for horse racing, but I would bet that on the races where there is a high probability of a 15 horse wreck, that ratings are up from a televised race where there is virtually no possibility of such an occurrence.


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2010)

mango.man said:


> I said the chances of a 15 horse wreck *are pretty slim*. I didn't say it never happens. In NASCAR you can pretty much count on it happening week after week for 36 weeks out of the year. And that is why people watch it.
> 
> I have no idea what the TV ratings are for horse racing, but I would bet that on the races where there is a high probability of a 15 horse wreck, that ratings are up from a televised race where there is virtually no possibility of such an occurrence.


 
Er, I don't think so somehow, the thought that people would want to watch horses and riders being killed and hurt is not a nice one, where on earth did you drag that up from?

Definitely time to get back to nice safe Olympic TKD.


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## mango.man (Jul 24, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Er, I don't think so somehow, the thought that people would want to watch horses and riders being killed and hurt is not a nice one, where on earth did you drag that up from?
> 
> Definitely time to get back to nice safe Olympic TKD.



It's kinda like running with the bulls in Pamplona.  How many people do you think are watching that spectacle and cheering for the people, vs how many are cheering for the bulls.

I would guess that somewhere between 2/3s and 3/4s are pulling for the bulls.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 24, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Then how do you explain the popularity of NASCAR?
> 
> Daniel


I cant. Maybe people like the crashes and smell of petrol.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 24, 2010)

mango.man said:


> I said the chances of a 15 horse wreck *are pretty slim*.  I didn't say it never happens.  In NASCAR you can pretty much count on it happening week after week for 36 weeks out of the year.  And that is why people watch it.
> 
> I have no idea what the TV ratings are for horse racing, but I would bet that on the races where there is a high probability of a 15 horse wreck, that ratings are up from a televised race where there is virtually no possibility of such an occurrence.


Im sure the only people watching horse racing on TV have their TAB ticket in one hand, not all, but 99%.


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## ATC (Jul 24, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Im sure the only people watching horse racing on TV have their TAB ticket in one hand, not all, but 99%.


I actually watch a horse racing event once. It was when I was young and I had this video game that was a horse racing game. But that was about it. The game was more fun as you controlled the whipping of the horse. To soon and he tired and got passed by. To late and you could not catch the front runners soon enough. So you had to know things like how many furlong in the race and if the horse ran better in mud, dirt, or grass. The game was pretty fun. The real event was not. I think the people that bring you horse racing made the game and put it out to attempt to stir up interest in the sport. I guess it worked because it made me watch an event. But the event itself just could not hold me.

Now if I had some money on a horse then I guess I would watch.

The game even had the betting aspect to it. You could bet on your horse but your horse only (guess it would be pretty easy to cheat and bet against yourself and then lose on purpose). There were 3 bets you could make. A win bet, a place bet, and a trifecta bet where you would bet on three horses and you had to pick the order of the horses. So 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

As I said the game was fun. Me and my friends use to play all the time. And this was 30 years ago. But the real thing I guess, is for the Aristocratic.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 24, 2010)

ATC said:


> I actually watch a horse racing event once. It was when I was young and I had this video game that was a horse racing game. But that was about it. The game was more fun as you controlled the whipping of the horse. To soon and he tired and got passed by. To late and you could not catch the front runners soon enough. So you had to know things like how many furlong in the race and if the horse ran better in mud, dirt, or grass. The game was pretty fun. The real event was not. I think the people that bring you horse racing made the game and put it out to attempt to stir up interest in the sport. I guess it worked because it made me watch an event. But the event itself just could not hold me.
> 
> Now if I had some money on a horse then I guess I would watch.
> 
> ...


thats the difference. Id sit down and enjoy a game of footy without money on one of the teams but despite what some may say there would be very few watching horse racing just for the spectacle. You only have to go to the pub and go to where they are showing the horse racing and you will see all the people betting on the races with all the used tickets littering the floor. You wont see anyone sitting back with a beer and just cheering on their favourite horse, unless they have a few dollars on it.


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## Gorilla (Jul 24, 2010)

Wow!!!!!


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2010)

The thing about some blokes is that they always want to be right and they will come up with any old waffle trying to make it sound as if what they are saying makes sense. As the sayng goes- BS baffles brains. As my mum use to say it's better to humour them so as not to upset their egos, so my reply to the above posts is 'yes dear of course it is'.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 25, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> The thing about some blokes is that they always want to be right and they will come up with any old waffle trying to make it sound as if what they are saying makes sense. As the sayng goes- BS baffles brains. As my mum use to say it's better to humour them so as not to upset their egos, so my reply to the above posts is 'yes dear of course it is'.


My mother always told me not to argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and win on experience. I think I know what she was talking about.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 25, 2010)

Back to topic. Im curious to hear from those who have kids who compete at a high level in TKD competitions, what percenatge of success do you believe is just raw natural ability and what percentage is hard work? Obviously hard work alone is not enough nor is natural ability so what is more important and by how much?


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## ATC (Jul 25, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Back to topic. Im curious to hear from those who have kids who compete at a high level in TKD competitions, what percenatge of success do you believe is just raw natural ability and what percentage is hard work? Obviously hard work alone is not enough nor is natural ability so what is more important and by how much?


Well my kid is still young and has a ways to go so he is not by any means high level yet, but I think he is pretty good. I can tell you that he is not the fastest nor is he the strongest. But he does put in the work. He never cheats a drill nor does he ever take any short cuts. If he is to do 500 push ups he does 500 correct push ups. When all others are done with their 500 butt up and shoulder dip ups, there he is still plugging away (201...202...2.0.3...rest...rest...204...etc...). You get my drift.

When he first started competing he use to just stand there and never even tried. I just talked to a former Black Belt of our that opened his own school at a past tournament and he came over and asked, "Is that the same AJ that we use to pull our hair out from trying to make him kick?"). I told him, "Yep". He was amazed at the difference.

Hard work will always pay off if you stick to it. You can overcome a lot with hard work. Hard work is like putting you paycheck in the bank. Before you know it those checks turn into ability.

I tell all the kids that I (help) train. "You don't win in the ring. You win during training." Simple saying but has a lot behind it.

To answer your question I would say 80% work vs. 20% ability.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> Well my kid is still young and has a ways to go so he is not by any means high level yet, but I think he is pretty good. I can tell you that he is not the fastest nor is he the strongest. But he does put in the work. He never cheats a drill nor does he ever take any short cuts. If he is to do 500 push ups he does 500 correct push ups. When all others are done with their 500 butt up and shoulder dip ups, there he is still plugging away (201...202...2.0.3...rest...rest...204...etc...). You get my drift.
> 
> When he first started competing he use to just stand there and never even tried. I just talked to a former Black Belt of our that opened his own school at a past tournament and he came over and asked, "Is that the same AJ that we use to pull our hair out from trying to make him kick?"). I told him, "Yep". He was amazed at the difference.
> 
> ...


Thats good to hear. With hard work being the major contributor it means all kids have a good chance of some form of success if they are willing to put in the real hard work.


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## terryl965 (Jul 25, 2010)

Natural ability is only as good as the work you put into your training, timing is thekey to the next level and that alone takes alot of footwork drills and spring to get down. If I had to guess it would be around 85% training and 15% ability. One last thing is the mental game, people always seem to overlook hopw mentally you need to be to get to that level.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 25, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Natural ability is only as good as the work you put into your training, timing is thekey to the next level and that alone takes alot of footwork drills and spring to get down. If I had to guess it would be around 85% training and 15% ability. One last thing is the mental game, people always seem to overlook hopw mentally you need to be to get to that level.


Thanks for the info, its great to get feedbak from guys like ATC nd yourself who have a lot of experience in this field (as I dont when it comes to olympic sparring). I was wondering also, do you see a correlation between good sparrers and other aspects of tkd? For instance, do you notice that young kids who, as coloured belts, excel in form, timber breaking, self defence etc become the ones who spar well or do you find that sparring is a different thing altogether? My istructor has always said that they all work together but Im curious as to whether you guys have a similar opinion.


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## terryl965 (Jul 25, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Thanks for the info, its great to get feedbak from guys like ATC nd yourself who have a lot of experience in this field (as I dont when it comes to olympic sparring). I was wondering also, do you see a correlation between good sparrers and other aspects of tkd? For instance, do you notice that young kids who, as coloured belts, excel in form, timber breaking, self defence etc become the ones who spar well or do you find that sparring is a different thing altogether? My istructor has always said that they all work together but Im curious as to whether you guys have a similar opinion.


 
I have found that doing Olympic is a great way of producing good footwork for self defense, it also allows you the ability to know the distance it takes to keep yourself out of the danger zone. One draw back is the hands down, that is and will remain a problem area for alot of Olympic TKD. We are a little more focus on the hands since we do point sparing and continous point sparing where the hands need to be up.

About Poomsae (forms) we still compete in poomsae and get beat alot because I stick to the KKW way on poomsae and do not allow the cieling kicks for flash. I believe sport poomsae is not what should be tought because it takes away from the intregrity of said poomsae. Take Koryo for example in sport it is to the ankle and then the cieling but in reality it is knee and lower rib cage so we do it that way even if we get deducted points for style and grace. Ihave always found it funny that poomsae should be judged on style and grace, power and percession should be the only criteria.


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## Archtkd (Jul 25, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> About Poomsae (forms) we still compete in poomsae and get beat alot because I stick to the KKW way on poomsae and do not allow the cieling kicks for flash. I believe sport poomsae is not what should be tought because it takes away from the intregrity of said poomsae. Take Koryo for example in sport it is to the ankle and then the cieling but in reality it is knee and lower rib cage so we do it that way even if we get deducted points for style and grace. Ihave always found it funny that poomsae should be judged on style and grace, power and percession should be the only criteria.


 
With much respect and hope I'm not throwing the thread off the rails, I don't think this is completely accurate. People who kick to the ceiling actually lose points in WTF competition. The correct double side kicks in Koryo, in competition and current Kukkiwon standard, is kick to knee, kick to the chin (no higher). The kicks are supposed to be propoportional to a competitor's body.

 Also, I don't see how you can perform perfect, precise, and powerful kicks without good style and grace. 

There are numerous poomsae gurus on MT, who are a lot more knowledgeable than I. Please weigh in and kindly correct me if I'm wrong.


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## jks9199 (Jul 25, 2010)

*Attention all users:

Please remain on the original topic, and refrain from name calling and personal attacks.

jks9199
Super Moderator
*


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## terryl965 (Jul 25, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> With much respect and hope I'm not throwing the thread off the rails, I don't think this is completely accurate. People who kick to the ceiling actually lose points in WTF competition. The correct double side kicks in Koryo, in competition and current Kukkiwon standard, is kick to knee, kick to the chin (no higher). The kicks are supposed to be propoportional to a competitor's body.
> 
> Also, I don't see how you can perform perfect, precise, and powerful kicks without good style and grace.
> 
> There are numerous poomsae gurus on MT, who are a lot more knowledgeable than I. Please weigh in and kindly correct me if I'm wrong.


 

I will just add the reference for everybody Kukkiwon Tae Kwon Do Textbook O Sung Publlishing Company Author Kim Un-yong Register : No. 13-27 March 2 1973.

Page 388 chapter 6 Poomsae

Action 2-1, 2-2Double yop-chagis are applied against the opponet (2-2)

* First kick is delivered against the opponent's knee and, while the latter stagers, another yop-chargi is inflicted a little higher on the opponet. The first kick may be superficial to entire the opponent's attention to an arae-makki while the second is a substantial one.

The picture show to the knee and the solarplexes, nothing is to the head or cieling.
I am not starting a war but rather trying to inform.


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## ATC (Jul 25, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> I will just add the reference for everybody Kukkiwon Tae Kwon Do Textbook O Sung Publlishing Company Author Kim Un-yong Register : No. 13-27 March 2 1973.
> 
> Page 388 chapter 6 Poomsae
> 
> ...


Yes this is correct for both the KKW way and the wTF sport way. You will find that WTF has taken what KKW has documented and now used that standard as its format. KKW and WTF are trying to standardize. Let's hope it does so.

Sport poomsae is much more detailed than regular poomsae and they have attempted to take out  the subjectiveness. From the stances to the transitions to the techniques to the accuracy. You must perform everything as it is laid out. They are looking at every detail.

No more just make up a score based on who you think did better. Look at the form and if you see a mistake hit a button. That is it, the computer will total the score based on the number of times you hit the button. Make a major mistake (Kick above or below the knee and or chin for example) and push a second button that take a full half point away.

Watch sport poomsae at Worlds or Nationals and you will see large gaps between competitors even though you may no see large gaps over all by just watching. Sport poomsae to me is a good thing and will conform everyone to the book standard. I really like it.

Just my .02


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## Archtkd (Jul 25, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> I will just add the reference for everybody Kukkiwon Tae Kwon Do Textbook O Sung Publlishing Company Author Kim Un-yong Register : No. 13-27 March 2 1973.
> 
> Page 388 chapter 6 Poomsae



Sir. I'm curious? Was the text book published in 1973? If so how many pooms does this book show in Taeguk Yook Jang, 19 or 23? Does it show there's a jump in the transition side kick in Jitae? 

The most current official Kukkiwon DVDs and accompanying text book (widely used by refs) shows a kick to the knee and a kick to  the chin in the opening sequence of Koryo.


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## terryl965 (Jul 25, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> Sir. I'm curious? Was the text book published in 1973? If so how many pooms does this book show in Taeguk Yook Jang, 19 or 23? Does it show there's a jump in the transition side kick in Jitae?
> 
> The most current official Kukkiwon DVDs and accompanying text book (widely used by refs) shows a kick to the knee and a kick to the chin in the opening sequence of Koryo.


 

The book is at my school so I will check after classes in the a.m., as far as I know the kicks have never changed. When I did the instructor course it was tought the same way and that is the opponet turning with the chest open and the kick is going right into the solarplex, so if they are sideway it would be the floating rib cage. I did call a very well known G.M. here in Texas and he confrims what I am saying and he does not understand the under the chin either. I am not here to argue but I go by the what the book says and until the instructor course changes it, it will remain that way for me. I know I have a ref. that is high up at my school and here is on here as well, goes by the name TX_BB and he says the same thing to me. Like I tell him when and if they make the correction or make it mandatory across the board then I am staying with what I know. 

To be correct here one would have to remember the KKW and the WTF standerds are trying to get in line with each other. I will look that up for you in the a.m.

As far as yook jang it shows 19 and Jitae shows no jump before any sidekick. I went to the KKW website and looked at the video so they are the same and will check in the book in the a.m.


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## Gorilla (Jul 25, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Back to topic. Im curious to hear from those who have kids who compete at a high level in TKD competitions, what percenatge of success do you believe is just raw natural ability and what percentage is hard work? Obviously hard work alone is not enough nor is natural ability so what is more important and by how much?




That is a tough ?  With out hard work natural talent is wasted!!!


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## taekwondodo (Jul 26, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> The book is at my school so I will check after classes in the a.m., as far as I know the kicks have never changed. When I did the instructor course it was tought the same way and that is the opponet turning with the chest open and the kick is going right into the solarplex, so if they are sideway it would be the floating rib cage. I did call a very well known G.M. here in Texas and he confrims what I am saying and he does not understand the under the chin either. I am not here to argue but I go by the what the book says and until the instructor course changes it, it will remain that way for me. I know I have a ref. that is high up at my school and here is on here as well, goes by the name TX_BB and he says the same thing to me. Like I tell him when and if they make the correction or make it mandatory across the board then I am staying with what I know.
> 
> To be correct here one would have to remember the KKW and the WTF standerds are trying to get in line with each other. I will look that up for you in the a.m.
> 
> As far as yook jang it shows 19 and Jitae shows no jump before any sidekick. I went to the KKW website and looked at the video so they are the same and will check in the book in the a.m.



At the Kukkiwon Poomsae seminars either at Dallas 08 or at US open 09 or ANY seminar that was taught by one of the Masters from Kukkiwon head quarter, the same questions were asked.
"I was taught..." "I learned..." " Why and when was the change.."

The same answers replied: "Taekwondo poomsaes evolves.  What works before doesn't work now.  Poomsaes derived from NATURAL movements"

That said, each of the technique has a function, and over the year each instructor water down the techniques based on their own interpretation and teaches to the students.

Sport Poomsae forced all of us to practice as one set Poomsae, or basically, follow the standards/base line thru out the world.

Referee guidelines for ANY kicks (side, front, or round kicks). The target is YOUR OWN level.

1. to the face (no point deducted) OR
2. To the body/trunk and the target is at the solar plexes (.1 deduction)
3. Round kick is delivered from the *BALL *of the foot. NOT the top/instep of the foot.  This has been changed as of this year.  (-.1 deduction if it was shown differently.)
4. Any kicks delivered ABOVE the head is .1 deduction.  There is no target above your head.

Jitae or any other form that has side kick in it.

There isn't any jumping transition from one move to another to deliver a side kick. (.1 deduction)  The transition is a fast stepping down and bring another leg up.  I asked an Master Hsui (Poomsae IR) specifically after 2010 US Open, when a French lady performed that jump, and he said no, it is a deduction.

Kukkiwon and WTF forms are ALMOST the same but with minor differences.  Sport Poomsae athletes needs to know what are the differences are and correct it.  All others just will do ok with Kukkiwon teaching.

BTW: I am a 2nd level Poomsae Referee. and we follow WTF.  Master Hsui said there will be a WTF poomsae guide line book coming out.  First draft were full of errors and it is being corrected.  I don't know when it will be published so we just have to wait.

My suggestion is for you any coaches/instructors who want to have their students participate in Sport Poomsae divisions, ALL needs to Audit/take the REFEREE Poomsae seminar.  Then you will learn from the Referee point of view.

Sport Poomsae will be really big from now on.  The divisions will have more competitors and it will be very competitive.  The athletes will learned, refined, honed their techniques down.  The errors will be minimals, which will be all good.


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## terryl965 (Jul 26, 2010)

If the poomsae evolve than they need to make it in a journal for everybody because if the KKW official website still has it the way I explained it. Like I said I will continue to do it the way the KKW does, we do not compete in sport poomsae anyway just because it is not what It should be. I do not mean any dis-respect to anybody but sport poomsae is not the same as KKW or at least what I have seen over the last year or two. Now if they do publish something with the standerd in it and confirm it, then I may start doing sport poomsae that way it is down in writing or on video what they really want instead of saying to refs. this needs to be this way and then you go out in one ref. makes the deduction while the others do not. I would really like to see every single ref. on the same page but I do not see that happening anytime soon, maybe one day it will come.


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## terryl965 (Jul 26, 2010)

One last thing I find funny is when you said you will see from the referee point of view, well that is the main problem the referee's do not see things the same way all the time so how is that going to help. Look we need refs. and I appreciate everything they do but for the sake of life all refs are not created equal and never will be. I have my oldest son Zachary ref all the time at state, local and at National and believe me what they say between every tournament is never the same thing how can that be? I will end this with when they create a book or a DVD that is truely available to everyone than I will be first in line to get it and make changes.


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## Gorilla (Jul 26, 2010)

How did this turn into a Poomsae thread!!!!  I would have never guessed it would have went this way!!!!


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## terryl965 (Jul 26, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> How did this turn into a Poomsae thread!!!! I would have never guessed it would have went this way!!!!


 
I was ask a question about sport poomsae and I gave an answer people did not like. It is always my fault and I personally like it that way.....


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## Gorilla (Jul 26, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> I was ask a question about sport poomsae and I gave an answer people did not like. It is always my fault and I personally like it that way.....



They Don't call you " the Ultimate Post Whore extreme" for nothing...


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## terryl965 (Jul 26, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> They Don't call you " the Ultimate Post Whore extreme" for nothing...


 
That is so true....


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## Archtkd (Jul 26, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> How did this turn into a Poomsae thread!!!!  I would have never guessed it would have went this way!!!!



Gorrilla partly blame me and my stubbornness.  It's just that the Koryo opening side kicks are one of  those things for which I have a sore spot, largely because I have poor side kicks that I have been working to improve for more than a decade. I was taught and practiced to kick to the knee- kick to the body for years. More recently I was taught to switch to kick to the knee-kick to the face.  Now there's debate -- fueled by folks that I respect a lot -- as to whether thats' accurate. 

Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong , but page 137 of The Textbook of Taekwondo Poomsae -- which accompanies the latest official Kukkiwon Poomsae DVD set -- states the side kicks should be "height of knee" and "height of face." It was edited by the Kukkiwon and published last year by Kim Joong-Young/ O-Sung Publishing Co. The publication is the first revision of the Kukkiwon's official poomsae textbook in 18 years. In the DVD, Prof. In-Sik Hwang, 8th Dan, and Chairman of the Kukkiwon's Education Committee, demonstrates Koryo with kick to the knee- kick to the face.


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## terryl965 (Jul 26, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> Gorrilla partly blame me and my stubbornness. It's just that the Koryo opening side kicks are one of those things for which I have a sore spot, largely because I have poor side kicks that I have been working to improve for more than a decade. I was taught and practiced to kick to the knee- kick to the body for years. More recently I was taught to switch to kick to the knee-kick to the face. Now there's debate -- fueled by folks that I respect a lot -- as to whether thats' accurate.
> 
> Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong , but page 137 of The Textbook of Taekwondo Poomsae -- which accompanies the latest official Kukkiwon Poomsae DVD set -- states the side kicks should be "height of knee" and "height of face." It was edited by the Kukkiwon and published last year by Kim Joong-Young/ O-Sung Publishing Co. The publication is the first revision of the Kukkiwon's official poomsae textbook in 18 years. In the DVD, Prof. In-Sik Hwang, 8th Dan, and Chairman of the Kukkiwon's Education Committee, demonstrates Koryo with kick to the knee- kick to the face.


 
Archtkd you are right what you say but one thing I do not understand is this, if they really want it that way should they not change it on the official KKW website? I will keep throwing to the knee and the lower chest or floating rib and that depends if they come sideways or frontward towards me. I can understand your frustration level mine is like that as well. Sometime we go higher because that is what certain people want and then other times it is about making the right movements and we do, it is all up to the person teaching or refing.


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## ATC (Jul 26, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Archtkd you are right what you say but one thing I do not understand is this, if they really want it that way should they not change it on the official KKW website? I will keep throwing to the knee and the lower chest or floating rib and that depends if they come sideways or frontward towards me. I can understand your frustration level mine is like that as well. Sometime we go higher because that is what certain people want and then other times it is about making the right movements and we do, it is all up to the person teaching or refing.


If you look at the application of each move from the web site, you will see that the second kick goes to the chin or neck if the head is tilted back moving the chin up. This kick is designed to end the confrontation with a KO or killing blow if the neck or wind pipe is struck. You can see the application right from Kukkiwon's site here http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/data/technique_trunk2.jsp *You will need to click the Koryo button then the Application button* to have the application explained and illustrated. 

Hope this helps everyone.


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## terryl965 (Jul 26, 2010)

ATC I can see what you arre saying, maybe I will jsut stay old fashion and keep it the way it was. I will keep trying to make changes but it is hard when you been doing that poomsae for years and I mean years upon years upon years.


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## ATC (Jul 26, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> ATC I can see what you arre saying, maybe I will jsut stay old fashion and keep it the way it was. I will keep trying to make changes but it is hard when you been doing that poomsae for years and I mean years upon years upon years.


It is laid out that way, it does not mean we have to really apply it that way. I have a hip issue on my left side and I can't even kick to the chin on that side. It is more for sport when judging but in reality you do what you can and make what you can work for you.

I would say for practical reason poomsae specifics are more of a guide than and absolute. Hey I know many that can only get the side kick to the groin area. That is OK by me. Do what works.


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