# Detaining A Predator With Out Injuring Him



## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 21, 2016)

First off my main foundation in martial arts is Choy Li Fut Kung Fu & Grappling but I have been training Aikido for a few years now and will say it helped me in this scenario.  

While I was at the mall with my family my wife's grandpa got tired so we were sitting at two small tables in the food court.  An ex co worker and her brother saw me so they sat down next to me at one table and while we were catching up a man pulls a chair from the table across from us and sits in it facing us.  I thought it was odd behavior so I looked over at my wife that was sitting across from me as well and saw her eye balling him as well. I see the guy take his cell phone out and start playing  with it but my co worker starts talking and I refocus on her.  A minute later I hear my wife yelling at the guy saying why you taking pictures. It turns out he was trying to get up skirt picture shots of my ex co worker friend.  

I stand up and start yelling at him and tell him to leave then realize I should take a photo of him with my cell phone. He then starts running away  so I end up chasing him thru the mall. As I was running thru a department store I told one of the jewellery kiosk associates to call security. I then caught up to him at the exit door and yanked on the  collar of his shirt but it ripped so he made it to the secondary set of doors.  I then gained a wrist control and started to yell at him that I don't want to hurt you but your not going anywhere.  During the scuffle I was repositioning myself to set up for an iriminage, hip throw or eye brow brush.  I was able to Detain him with minimal force till another guy helped me take him to the curb where he then threw and smashed his phone while we were waiting for the  security and the police to show up. 

After replaying the scenario in my head multiple times I see many positive and negative things I did during this scenario and will say when I was controlling him it was the aikido, Tai Chi and judo off balancing and control techniques that allowed me to safely control the situation.  There were multiple times I could have struck,  joint locked or thrown him while we were in the scuffle but he was just scrambling for the exit and I was in fear of repercussions if I stepped it up a notch since it's a fine line between detaining and assaulting a criminal.  

I just thought I'd share my little experience with the community.  





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## hoshin1600 (Aug 21, 2016)

Good to see you here again I haven't seen you in awhile . Thanks for sharing.


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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 21, 2016)

Thanks for the welcome back and yes I took a break from forums but I thought I'd share my incident with the group.  It actually was a major eye opener seeing how difficult it is controlling an opponent that isnt attacking you but just trying to escape. 

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## Jenna (Aug 22, 2016)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> First off my main foundation in martial arts is Choy Li Fut Kung Fu & Grappling but I have been training Aikido for a few years now and will say it helped me in this scenario.
> 
> While I was at the mall with my family my wife's grandpa got tired so we were sitting at two small tables in the food court.  An ex co worker and her brother saw me so they sat down next to me at one table and while we were catching up a man pulls a chair from the table across from us and sits in it facing us.  I thought it was odd behavior so I looked over at my wife that was sitting across from me as well and saw her eye balling him as well. I see the guy take his cell phone out and start playing  with it but my co worker starts talking and I refocus on her.  A minute later I hear my wife yelling at the guy saying why you taking pictures. It turns out he was trying to get up skirt picture shots of my ex co worker friend.
> 
> ...


It is unfortunate and horrible that people put others like your wife in these situations.. I cannot imagine what some folk must have in their heads some times.. Glad you all came out of it ok.. What were you thinking at the time it happened? What did you think you would end up doing? Could it have been possible he could have been armed? Even a shank or screwdriver or blade? Happy your aiki worked for you.. and your wife? she has been ok since? Can be an horrible thing to have done to you.. Thank you for sharing.. wishes Jx


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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 22, 2016)

Jenna said:


> It is unfortunate and horrible that people put others like your wife in these situations.. I cannot imagine what some folk must have in their heads some times.. Glad you all came out of it ok.. What were you thinking at the time it happened? What did you think you would end up doing? Could it have been possible he could have been armed? Even a shank or screwdriver or blade? Happy your aiki worked for you.. and your wife? she has been ok since? Can be an horrible thing to have done to you.. Thank you for sharing.. wishes Jx


The victim was actually my ex coworker she was the one wearing the dress. My wife was the one that witnessed the guy tapping the screen of the phone where the camera button would be while it was pointed at my ex coworker.

A bunch of things went thru my head and I know I did allot of things correct and not correct. For instance I should have just detained him in the food court which would have prevented the chase thru a mall. The second thing is I should have told wife to film it for evidence Incase things got out of hand.  

The only time I had a bit of concern with the opponent was when he made it past the first set of doors and we were between the inner and outer doors of the department store due to being trapped in a confined area. That's when my instincts kicked in and is when I gained a wrist control then immediately was watching other hand for shank or knife.  As soon as i realized he didn't have one is when I brought my free arm up to set up throws strikes and locks while protecting my face. Once I got in a what I felt was a better position is when I started yelling commands at him while still maintaining wrist control with other hand.  

Yes unfortunately I was thinking of legal consequences the whole time this was going on and even had multiple people look at me like I was the bad guy while detaining him. I even asked one guy that was gawking if he would like to give a hand or call security and he just stared at me in shock. Seriously 4-5 men walked in and out if the department store while I was controlling the guy and finally a younger Hispanic guy that I explained what was happening to is the one that spoke to the individual in Spanish which calmed him down a bit and is the one that helped escort him outside to the curb. 

All I have to say from this whole incident other then being discussed by society in multiple ways is that it was an eye opener realizing how difficult it is to just control an opponent that is trying to escape when you can't throw lock or strike. I just kept the mentality of once he throws a strike or try to throw I can step it up and that was only due to legal issues.






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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 22, 2016)

P.S. to the people that say cops use excessive force when they take down opponents to cuff them.

 After this experience I had I would say go ahead and try a scenario where you try to detain a no gi training partner that is solely trying to escape you and where you can't throw lock or strike. 

Pretty much the rule would be match what the training partner gives you I guarantee you will see multiple times where he had an opportunity to land a good strike or throw and you might rethink what cops deal with. 

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## Jenna (Aug 22, 2016)

WEll do not trouble your self with what you should or should not have done in hindsight.. you did what felt right at that moment, and yes others do nothing because it is too much of a risk to intervene.. I was going to ask what lessons in particular regarding your MA would you take from the whole business that will help you in future and but you have suggested exactly that  I think what I see is that, as ever, training is not good unless your uke is resisting like he would in every reality, like his own safety or life depended on it. Not always easy replicating this in training.. still.. Hey, hope your co-worker is ok after that too.. appreciate your sharing the incident x


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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 22, 2016)

Another thing that messed with my instincts was I didn't want to under hook or over hook and get in to a stand up grappling match since I had a one handed opening folder in my front right pocket so I also was accounting for the risk of him grabbing that. 

Learning experience is it's much easier to control an opponent with force and not easy to control an opponent while trying to use minimal force. 

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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 22, 2016)

Jenna said:


> WEll do not trouble your self with what you should or should not have done in hindsight.. you did what felt right at that moment, and yes others do nothing because it is too much of a risk to intervene.. I was going to ask what lessons in particular regarding your MA would you take from the whole business that will help you in future and but you have suggested exactly that  I think what I see is that, as ever, training is not good unless your uke is resisting like he would in every reality, like his own safety or life depended on it. Not always easy replicating this in training.. still.. Hey, hope your co-worker is ok after that too.. appreciate your sharing the incident x


Yep and you can even say my judo, bjj and aikido training with a gi helped mess with my brain because the first grab was to the back of the collar and then second grab was to right shoulder and I know they're was a third grab in there since I remember tearing the shirt 3 different times. 

You are correct often times you can never safely replicate a fight scenario exactly the same as it is in the real world. 

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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> Another thing that messed with my instincts was I didn't want to under hook or over hook and get in to a stand up grappling match since I had a one handed opening folder in my front right pocket so I also was accounting for the risk of him grabbing that.
> 
> Learning experience is it's much easier to control an opponent with force and not easy to control an opponent while trying to use minimal force.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk



Yeah that happens. But if you can avoid hurting people. It is generally better.


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## Buka (Aug 22, 2016)

Glad you're okay, bro. Glad you stopped the bad guy, too. 

Welcome back.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 22, 2016)

some thoughts .....


ST1Doppelganger said:


> Seriously 4-5 men walked in and out if the department store while I was controlling the guy


this happens a lot.  its not always that people are not willing to help.  sometimes yeah, but it is also from a disconnect in reality. they are going about their day and their brain takes a minute to digest what is going on. by then they have walked past.  i think its a symptom of walking about on auto pilot.  now imagine the worst and you are the victim being repeatedly stabbed.  you cant count on others to step in and help.



ST1Doppelganger said:


> The only time I had a bit of concern with the opponent was when he made it past the first set of doors and we were between the inner and outer doors of the department store due to being trapped in a confined area.


yeah this is a bad situation.  i have trained theft prevention guys and this is a danger zone.  had one student have to defend against an assailant using a screw driver as a shank.  a screw driver will mess up your day.  being in that confined space makes some assailants go crazy, they feel they are trapped just as much as you did but yet so close to freedom.



ST1Doppelganger said:


> Another thing that messed with my instincts was I didn't want to under hook or over hook and get in to a stand up grappling match since I had a one handed opening folder in my front right pocket so I also was accounting for the risk of him grabbing that.


again a common mistake that can end in a bad way.  anyone that carries a weapon should include that into their MA training even if that only entails practice with a fellow student and practice keeping that weapon out of range where it can be taken away.



ST1Doppelganger said:


> Yep and you can even say my judo, bjj and aikido training with a gi helped mess with my brain because the first grab was to the back of the collar and then second grab was to right shoulder


if i am understanding this correctly ....this is good and bad,  your training came out as practiced under stress thats great,  on the other side i guess training without a gi would be a benefit.


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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah that happens. But if you can avoid hurting people. It is generally better.


Agreed minimal force is  generally better but sexual predators fall pretty low on the totem pole of society and I wish he would have given a bit more to me so I could have gave a bit more back to him. 

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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 23, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> some thoughts .....
> 
> this happens a lot.  its not always that people are not willing to help.  sometimes yeah, but it is also from a disconnect in reality. they are going about their day and their brain takes a minute to digest what is going on. by then they have walked past.  i think its a symptom of walking about on auto pilot.  now imagine the worst and you are the victim being repeatedly stabbed.  you cant count on others to step in and help.



Agreed way to many people are in auto pilot. The ones that aren't pull out their cell phones to record incidents and yell out world star which is why a few years ago I deleted all my fight pages I had liked on face book due to the fact society was disgusting me. 


[/QUOTE]yeah this is a bad situation.  i have trained theft prevention guys and this is a danger zone.  had one student have to defend against an assailant using a screw driver as a shank.  a screw driver will mess up your day.  being in that confined space makes some assailants go crazy, they feel they are trapped just as much as you did but yet so close to freedom.[/QUOTE]

 Before we got in to that area the first instinct I had was to slam him in to the doors or kick him against the doors but I'd probably be arrested for that. As soon as we got past the first set of doors that's when all the red flags went off in my head and I backed off to see about weapons.  It gave me the same stomach feeling of when I got attacked by two people in between a row of parked cars and a fence. 


[/QUOTE]Again a common mistake that can end in a bad way.  anyone that carries a weapon should include that into their MA training even if that only entails practice with a fellow student and practice keeping that weapon out of range where it can be taken away.[/QUOTE]

Yep im always aware of the possibility of an attacker taking my weapon from me and using it against me.

[/QUOTE]if i am understanding this correctly ....this is good and bad,  your training came out as practiced under stress thats great,  on the other side i guess training without a gi would be a benefit.[/QUOTE]

I started off with shoot fighting as my first martial art so yes i dislike the gi and prefer no gi grappling. In this case my muscle memory was kicking in and I went for the collar and rear shoulder areas for take down opportunities but that went out the door real quickly. 

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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 23, 2016)

LOL out of all the years of being on this forum I've never asked how the heck do you guys divide quoted posts up correctly and respond I guess I'm asking now since last post is all messed up. 

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## JowGaWolf (Aug 23, 2016)

Not sure I would have chased the guy unless I though he had pictures that were going to be posted on the Internet.  Also for me to chase a guy means that I'm going to hurt them just for making me run after them. lol.  What can I say, I'm human with flaws.  My understanding of detaining is also different as I don't know one form of Chin Na that doesn't hurt.  If I detain, then I want it to be a true detain where they are not able to pull a weapon or move with any freedom.  I'm assuming a Joint lock would have also prevented him from smashing his phone.  The good news is, that a smashed phone doesn't kill the storage space in the phone.

By the way, glad you were able to stop him and glad you weren't hurt.


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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 23, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not sure I would have chased the guy unless I though he had pictures that were going to be posted on the Internet.  Also for me to chase a guy means that I'm going to hurt them just for making me run after them. lol.  What can I say, I'm human with flaws.  My understanding of detaining is also different as I don't know one form of Chin Na that doesn't hurt.  If I detain, then I want it to be a true detain where they are not able to pull a weapon or move with any freedom.  I'm assuming a Joint lock would have also prevented him from smashing his phone.  The good news is, that a smashed phone doesn't kill the storage space in the phone.
> 
> By the way, glad you were able to stop him and glad you weren't hurt.


Yes I hate running as well and that it was hard for me not to smash him for multiple reasons.  I had the wrist control ready to be set up for a lock but I also was afraid of getting sued or of legal repercussions from accidentally breaking a joint if the guy responded wrong. 

The good news is the guy is still in jail since he admitted to taking photos and my friend is pressing charges with the DA looking in to search warrant for the phone. I told her to inquire about if they can get a search warrant for the cloud or Google photos since if they could do that it might bring up photos of other victims or terrible internet images he has saved and could bring down a tougher sentence on him. 

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## Dirty Dog (Aug 23, 2016)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> LOL out of all the years of being on this forum I've never asked how the heck do you guys divide quoted posts up correctly and respond I guess I'm asking now since last post is all messed up.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk



Quotes start with [ QUOTE] and end with [ /QUOTE]. But without the spaces, of course.

If you want to (this is what I do, since it keeps the reference link in place) you can hightlight the initial [ QUOTE string. In this post, it is [ QUOTE="ST1Doppelganger, post: 1782481, member: 32227"] (space inserted by me so the string is visible to you) and paste it in at the beginning of each quoted section.


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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 23, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Quotes start with [ QUOTE] and end with [ /QUOTE]. But without the spaces, of course.
> 
> If you want to (this is what I do, since it keeps the reference link in place) you can hightlight the initial [ QUOTE string. In this post, it is [ QUOTE="ST1Doppelganger, post: 1782481, member: 32227"] (space inserted by me so the string is visible to you) and paste it in at the beginning of each quoted section.


Thanks I'll have to try it and am sure I'll mess it up a few times but will figure it out. 

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## JowGaWolf (Aug 23, 2016)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> Yes I hate running as well and that it was hard for me not to smash him for multiple reasons.  I had the wrist control ready to be set up for a lock but I also was afraid of getting sued or of legal repercussions from accidentally breaking a joint if the guy responded wrong.
> 
> The good news is the guy is still in jail since he admitted to taking photos and my friend is pressing charges with the DA looking in to search warrant for the phone. I told her to inquire about if they can get a search warrant for the cloud or Google photos since if they could do that it might bring up photos of other victims or terrible internet images he has saved and could bring down a tougher sentence on him.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


That's good.  Sounds like everything is going the way it should.  Where I live it's not illegal to take pictures like that.  (source. AJC). People have been caught doing it but there is no legal solution to prevent it.  Hopefully they will fix it so that it's illegal and spend less time worrying about drones flying over peoples back yard.


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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 23, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's good.  Sounds like everything is going the way it should.  Where I live it's not illegal to take pictures like that.  (source. AJC). People have been caught doing it but there is no legal solution to prevent it.  Hopefully they will fix it so that it's illegal and spend less time worrying about drones flying over peoples back yard.


Yes unfortunately there's minimal laws that can be applied to this case hence why im hoping but not hoping they find some terrible media on this guys phone. 

He was way to over confident on how he just pulled a chair from a table sat next to a trash can like 6 feet away and proceeded to take pics. Just his confidence level makes me think he's been doing this for some time and who knows how old the people are that he does this to are. 

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## hoshin1600 (Aug 23, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Quotes start with [ QUOTE] and end with [ /QUOTE]. But without the spaces, of course.
> 
> If you want to (this is what I do, since it keeps the reference link in place) you can hightlight the initial [ QUOTE string. In this post, it is [ QUOTE="ST1Doppelganger, post: 1782481, member: 32227"] (space inserted by me so the string is visible to you) and paste it in at the beginning of each quoted section.



i have no idea what you just explained.
all i do is left click on the line i want to quote and drag the curser over the sentence i want to quote and a little bubble opens under the highlighted sentence that says  "QUOTE / REPLY"    i click on quote and then down at my  reply  i click "INSERT QUOTES"


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 23, 2016)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> Thanks for the welcome back and yes I took a break from forums but I thought I'd share my incident with the group.  It actually was a major eye opener seeing how difficult it is controlling an opponent that isnt attacking you but just trying to escape.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk



Worked security in a hospital with a mental health and detox unit many many years ago.... believe me, I understand fully


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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 23, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> i have no idea what you just explained.
> all i do is left click on the line i want to quote and drag the curser over the sentence i want to quote and a little bubble opens under the highlighted sentence that says  "QUOTE / REPLY"    i click on quote and then down at my  reply  i click "INSERT QUOTES"


Some of us like me are on Tapatalk for mobile devices and don't have that option but thanks for answering how to do it on computer. 

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