# TMA Stances compared with snapshots from MMA



## skribs (Jul 12, 2020)

I've always liked this nerd (he self-identifies as the Karate Nerd), but this is my favorite video of his yet.  He talks about the traditional Karate and Kung Fu stances, looks at how they affect your movement, and then shows how they are used in MMA, even if you don't realize they are.


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## Headhunter (Jul 12, 2020)

I’ve always used the side on karate stance in every fight I’ve had boxing, kickboxing and mma. It pisses coaches off in boxing or kickboxing classes I do try and do it their way but in sparring I just naturally slip into it and it works for me. The stance is unorthodox for a lot of kick-boxer or boxers and they’re not used to fighting that stance and it allows me to throw a side kick easier which is my best kick.

yes there’s more chance of taking a leg kick or a takedown but to me it’s a risk reward thing. The rewards outweighs the risks for me.


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## drop bear (Jul 12, 2020)

Then you have to look at why one system can make these stances work. And another can't.


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> I've always liked this nerd (he self-identifies as the Karate Nerd), but this is my favorite video of his yet. He talks about the traditional Karate and Kung Fu stances, looks at how they affect your movement, and then shows how they are used in MMA, even if you don't realize they are.


Jesse Enkamp has made it his business to gather MA knowledge and present the concepts in easy, tasty bites.  This, I agree, is one of his best and most profound.  Thanks for posting this one.



drop bear said:


> Then you have to look at why one system can make these stances work. And another can't.


You don't have to look far - as Jesse explained, most systems (or perhaps more correctly, most instructors) have missed the concept that stances are transitory and dynamic. 

This was understood by all a century ago, but got lost by many during the popularization in the 1930's as kata became rigid and stances became static to dramatize kata in competition - like locking an extended punch out during a 3 second kiai as you grimace your most ferocious face. 

This is a disconnect between form and function.  Stances and angles should constantly shift to facilitate your tactical game plan.  The only good time to stay static in a stance is to draw your opponent into attacking, or lull him into becoming static, himself.  Good Japanese Shotokan karate-ka do this well.  But generally, _tai-sabaki _and related footwork make the stances work in a dynamic scenario.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 12, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> This is a disconnect between form and function. Stances and angles should constantly shift to facilitate your tactical game plan.


Trying to tell people this statement is like a forever losing battle.  I don't know how many times stances have been discussed here and it always goes back to trying to fight in the stances the same way that we train in the stances. 



isshinryuronin said:


> The only good time to stay static in a stance is to draw your opponent into attacking, or lull him into becoming static, himself


You can also use a static stance for defense. One of the things I often do to guys who want see how Kung Fu compares to MMA or BJJ take downs is to give them an opportunity to take me down while standing in a horse stance.  I even tried it with my nephew and they all had the same difficulty.  The stance was too low for them to get under me.  The low stance positions my hands at the same level of my legs which made it easy for me to use my hands and maneuver my legs.




His dad (my brother) wasn't too happy about the idea of him trying to take me down.  Not sure why people think I'm just going to smash others in the face lol.  But anyway. My nephew gave it a good try and discovered that there was a lot that he couldn't do on hard surfaces without injuring himself.  I figure I have one or two more good battle in me before I stop challenging young guys.

Hopefully one day I'll be able to go a couple of rounds with those guys especially since my nephew wants to get into MMA


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 12, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> You can also use a static stance for defense. ...


When people ask you what stance that they should use in fighting, if you start to drag them around in circle. They will never ask you that question again.

Old saying said, "You may not find any opportunity to attack. As long as you keep moving, soon or later, you will find that opportunity". The key point is "keep moving". When you are moving, stance has no meaning to you.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 12, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> You can also use a static stance for defense. ...


Offense is the best defense.

If you have not decide how to attack, you just keep moving in circle. Stance doesn't exist here.






If you have decided how to attack, stance also doesn't exist any more.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 12, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people ask you what stance that they should use in fighting, if you start to drag them around in circle. They will never ask you that question again.
> 
> Old saying said, "You may not find any opportunity to attack. As long as you keep moving, soon or later, you will find that opportunity". The key point is "keep moving". When you are moving, stance has no meaning to you.


  Stand tall like that against someone who can shoot and take your legs, and I think you will discover that this may not work as well.  In all your videos the technique is being done against someone standing tall.  A wrestler or a BJJ practitioner would love for you to stand tall like that.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 12, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Stand tall like that against someone who can shoot and take your legs, and I think you will discover that this may not work as well.  In all your videos the technique is being done against someone standing tall.  A wrestler or a BJJ practitioner would love for you to stand tall like that.


In wrestling, you want to be on top. You don't want to be at the bottom.

This is the worst position that you can have in wrestling.










Basic wrestling principle 101 - lead your opponent into the emptiness (let him to kiss the ground).


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## skribs (Jul 12, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In wrestling, you want to be on top. You don't want to be at the bottom.
> 
> This is the worst position that you can have in wrestling.
> 
> ...



The person in black clearly doesn't want to make that take-down work.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 13, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In wrestling, you want to be on top. You don't want to be at the bottom.
> 
> This is the worst position that you can have in wrestling.
> 
> ...


 Yep and emptiness sucks.  It's also the best description for anyone who has tried to grab legs only to find nothing.  

If I can't get them to fall upon emptiness then I'll settle for a bad lift with me weighting them down.




Here, I'm off the floor but there's no way he's going to be able to lift me.  In the video you can see his back give out




This is what happened after his back went out.  I don't think he hurt is back day,  I think he went with it after his back could no longer support 200lbs




Here's a failed attempt to trip me. Used his body to help keep me up.  I just put all of my weight on him and slipped my legs out of any attempt for him to trip me.





When they make a mistake it's easy to take the neck. During those sparring sessions they wanted me to do take downs like they do but I never did.  Just not my style, nor my strength.


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## Steve (Jul 13, 2020)

skribs said:


> I've always liked this nerd (he self-identifies as the Karate Nerd), but this is my favorite video of his yet.  He talks about the traditional Karate and Kung Fu stances, looks at how they affect your movement, and then shows how they are used in MMA, even if you don't realize they are.


Interesting video and concept, and I agree that the guy narrating the videos is kind of charming.  In this video, the "argument" seems to be essentially that TMA focus on stances, which are actually steps, because from the stances all power is generated.  This emphasis on stances is because TMAs "remember" that these are the root of any functional success.  

I personally think that the observation is solid.  It seems reasonable to me that these snapshots exist in the course of human movement. Further, I like his point that they are key to success in these transitions.  But I think the conclusion of his argument is a little cockeyed and self serving.  It's an example of a conclusion in search of a supporting argument.    

I think it's more objectively reasonable to look at the combat sports participants, who are actually applying the "stances" during physical combat, and conclude that they are training them more effectively than other styles where they train them statically and without application.  I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that combat sports schools have forgotten their stances, given that the footage used is of them actually using the stances effectively.  The evidence simply doesn't support the conclusion. 

If anything, the evidence/argument presented in the video makes it clear that the TMA styles that are stuck training a snapshot in time are putting undue emphasis on that at the expense of training the stances as transitions.

The rest of the thread on stances has been really interesting reading.  I'm just commenting on the video in the OP.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 13, 2020)

From my personal experience with stance training.  I have notice physical changes.  My tendons are thicker and stronger than they were before I did stance training.  I'm assuming that it also affects the ligaments in a good way as well.  My static stance training is easier than my dynamic stance training (what you see me do when going through my stances with be staff behind my back.) Stance training gives me solid footing,  sometimes I feel like I'm a tank, which I don't like as it also makes me feel like I'm stuck to the ground.  Looking at this in terms of fighting.  You would really want some strong tendons and joints if you plan to fight on uneven ground, rocks, tree roots, small pits in the ground, etc. could easily damage joints and tendons.

Like everything else I believe stances are part of the training and not the final training.  Stance training is a specific exercise used to meet a specific need.  Many of us have all seen videos of TMA vs MMA where TMA is assumed to have done lots of stance training but when it comes to fighting they have horrible footwork and often appear off balance.  We also don't see the power from the legs that is often cherished by TMA practitioners.

In Jow Ga we do both static and dynamic stance training (moving while in stance).  We have a form that is specifically dedicated to dynamic stance training. (video below).





Overall I think many people underestimate the value of stance training and some overestimate the value.  When you see people who spar and actually train  to fight, you will see that they do more than just stances.


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## jobo (Jul 13, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Trying to tell people this statement is like a forever losing battle.  I don't know how many times stances have been discussed here and it always goes back to trying to fight in the stances the same way that we train in the stances.
> 
> 
> You can also use a static stance for defense. One of the things I often do to guys who want see how Kung Fu compares to MMA or BJJ take downs is to give them an opportunity to take me down while standing in a horse stance.  I even tried it with my nephew and they all had the same difficulty.  The stance was too low for them to get under me.  The low stance positions my hands at the same level of my legs which made it easy for me to use my hands and maneuver my legs.
> ...


i had much the same conversation with my instructor,  that i couldnt lift or move him in horse stance, i said i could, and moved him back down the dojo about 10 yards, by which time he had come out of his stance to avoid fallibg over backwards


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 13, 2020)

The video is on point.  Stancework is all about building strength in exaggerated uncomfortable positions, which is why the footwork builds on top of it, so that when you're not actually training, those positions are as natural as any other. That's why training goes from isometric to isotonic.  Could you just do isotonic exercises?  Sure.  Would they be as strong as someone who does both?  No.

The empty/false/cat leg stance found in several arts is nothing more than an a position where the weight is back loaded, allowing swift kicks and shuffle steps.  In training, you spend a lot of time simply standing in this stance, and you will feel the lactic acid burn.  Later on, you can spend an hour in such a stance (not that you'd need to).  The "new strength replaces old" is the typical wisdom shared.

Then compare "Horse stance", it isn't the same between arts, even between kung fu styles (Tai Chi and several Southern Shaolin styles differ, and Japanese and Okinawan styles derived from them differ even further).  But the central tenet is the same between them all, strengthening the same muscles in the core and groin used to ride a horse (or a goat, hahaha).

But then you get schools like Wing Chun kwoons that actually teach people to fight in the "Character 2 Adduction" or "Goat Riding" Stance.  No, just no.  They are doing it wrong.


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## drop bear (Jul 13, 2020)

Steve said:


> Interesting video and concept, and I agree that the guy narrating the videos is kind of charming.  In this video, the "argument" seems to be essentially that TMA focus on stances, which are actually steps, because from the stances all power is generated.  This emphasis on stances is because TMAs "remember" that these are the root of any functional success.
> 
> I personally think that the observation is solid.  It seems reasonable to me that these snapshots exist in the course of human movement. Further, I like his point that they are key to success in these transitions.  But I think the conclusion of his argument is a little cockeyed and self serving.  It's an example of a conclusion in search of a supporting argument.
> 
> ...



Yeah. I think there is this correlation made where people look at a successful thing and say. We invented that. And so assume that they are doing it better. That they have the deeper understanding.

Like Steven Segal teaching Anderson Silva how to front kick.


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## geezer (Jul 13, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> But then you get schools *like Wing Chun kwoons* that actually teach people to fight in the "Character 2 Adduction" or "Goat Riding" Stance.  No, just no.  They are doing it wrong.



^^^^ Just to clarify, I think you mean to say, "...like _some _Wing Chun kwoons..." because the Ip Man WC/VT/WT branches I've been exposed too consider "Character-Two Adduction Stance" or _Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma_ to be a _training_ stance.

Really, the back-weighted stance, the "character-two" stance, the 45° and 90° turned stances, and the steps (both shuffle steps and passing steps), are all just _a way to move effectively_. Each position flows into the next as needed and only a fool stays put in a static position when sparring or fighting.

Now a person could legitimately criticize WC for overly favoring the narrow, upright postures characteristic of _all _the above listed stances. However, I would maintain that to some degree this "deficiency" of scope is addressed in the long, low pole stances. They are not used often, but are still taught for a practical reason over and beyond their value in conditioning. As _Jow Ga Wolf_ has been saying all along, there are times when a strong, low stance is advantageous.


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## Steve (Jul 13, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. I think there is this correlation made where people look at a successful thing and say. We invented that. And so assume that they are doing it better. That they have the deeper understanding.
> 
> Like Steven Segal teaching Anderson Silva how to front kick.


It's a predictable result of a conclusion in search of premises.  In this case, our static stance training works because we've always done it this way, and I can see them in something that I know works.  In order for this logical train to work, we have to:

Redefine the term: it's not a stance, it's a step.  
Ignore that few MMA fighters shown do not train static stances in the way a TMA does. 
Propose that, while MMA fighters are demonstrating the stances, they have also somehow forgotten how important they are.
And lastly, draw a very questionable conclusion claiming some associative benefit for the static training, based on a superficial similarity to MMA. 
I would encourage everyone to try and apply this same argument structure to anything else.  It gets silly pretty quickly.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 13, 2020)

jobo said:


> i had much the same conversation with my instructor,  that i couldnt lift or move him in horse stance, i said i could, and moved him back down the dojo about 10 yards, by which time he had come out of his stance to avoid fallibg over backwards


That's very different than what I've stated.  I make no claims that someone can't move me when I'm in horse stance.  The most I've ever said is that you can defend while in a static horse stance.  This is something that I've done numerous times so I know it's not impossible.  And as soon as I see that it benefits me to be out of a static horse stance then I'll come out of it.  My brain doesn't even calculate what you just stated.  When people say stuff like that I just ask myself why, what's the point?  For me a static horse stance doesn't mean that I'm a statue.  It just means there's little to no footwork.   Shifting my weight forward or backwards without moving my feet would qualify as static.

This has no value to me. When I see this I immediately think of emptiness and the opportunity for someone to fall on it.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 13, 2020)

Steve said:


> Redefine the term: it's not a stance, it's a step.


I didn't like that part of the video.  I would rather that he say people misinterpret horse stance.  "When you ride a horse your legs may move but your feet stay in about the same position dependent on how the horse moves."  When the horse runs your feet are in one position.  When the horse walks your feet are in another positions.  A rider may choose to sit low on the side or stand off the saddle. This is the same way a fighter may raise or lower his or her height.  It's a horse stance.  Not a statue stance.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 13, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. I think there is this correlation made where people look at a successful thing and say. We invented that. And so assume that they are doing it better. That they have the deeper understanding.
> 
> Like Steven Segal teaching Anderson Silva how to front kick.



This is the funniest Youtube channel on the internet for a reason, after all.

Do the kick.  Do the kick.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 13, 2020)

geezer said:


> ^^^^ Just to clarify, I think you mean to say, "...like _some _Wing Chun kwoons..." because the Ip Man WC/VT/WT branches I've been exposed too consider "Character-Two Adduction Stance" or _Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma_ to be a _training_ stance.
> 
> Really, the back-weighted stance, the "character-two" stance, the 45° and 90° turned stances, and the steps (both shuffle steps and passing steps), are all just _a way to move effectively_. Each position flows into the next as needed and only a fool stays put in a static position when sparring or fighting.
> 
> Now a person could legitimately criticize WC for overly favoring the narrow, upright postures characteristic of _all _the above listed stances. However, I would maintain that to some degree this "deficiency" of scope is addressed in the long, low pole stances. They are not used often, but are still taught for a practical reason over and beyond their value in conditioning. As _Jow Ga Wolf_ has been saying all along, there are times when a strong, low stance is advantageous.



Yes.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 13, 2020)

The biggest part that I thought the OP's video missed about stances is that.  Strong stances are good for weapons use.   Place the use of stance training in context to what things would benefit from them.  People who think they can train spear, long pole, or heavy weapons with weak stances, will soon learn just how important their stances are.

and I'm not talking about those light weight performance weapons that people twirl around.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 13, 2020)

I thought the biggest part the OP video missed was the mental attitude required for static stancework.  He shows the clip of a certain Drunken Master, but missed the point a little about the whole scene in context of the movie.

Because the Kinesthetic theory is all well and good but the fact remains that proper stancework (and deep stance footwork) will cause a perfectly athletic, strong person to cry and beg for mercy, and conditioning away that attitude is the quintessence of kung fu.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 13, 2020)

Oh and don't do the candle under your butt thing when doing Ma bu.  

Bad idea, all around, like carrying a loaded gun down your pants bad.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 14, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The biggest part that I thought the OP's video missed about stances is that.  Strong stances are good for weapons use.   Place the use of stance training in context to what things would benefit from them.  People who think they can train spear, long pole, or heavy weapons with weak stances, will soon learn just how important their stances are.
> 
> and I'm not talking about those light weight performance weapons that people twirl around.



Take note of the stances being use. Remove the sword and you'll have a "stepping form"  





In Jow Ga our stance training is formally known as "Stepping Form"  You can can see here another Jow Ga school names the video Stepping Form.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 14, 2020)

I would say that the static stance training is very important, but is only part of the training.  The other part is the transition from one stance to another.  I’m not talking about footwork or stepping.  I’m talking about the transition, for example from a side horse to a forward stance.  The transition is where the work gets done.  The stance itself is merely an posture.  It may be a beginning or an ending posture.  But no work gets done in the posture.  Work gets done in the transition phase.  That is where you get power for your technique.  That is where you engage the body as a whole.  That is where the work gets done.

So people like to focus on deep stances and I say ”yes, that is important”.  But there is more to it.  The transitions matter.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 16, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I would say that the static stance training is very important, but is only part of the training.  The other part is the transition from one stance to another.  I’m not talking about footwork or stepping.  I’m talking about the transition, for example from a side horse to a forward stance.  The transition is where the work gets done.  The stance itself is merely an posture.  It may be a beginning or an ending posture.  But no work gets done in the posture.  Work gets done in the transition phase.  That is where you get power for your technique.  That is where you engage the body as a whole.  That is where the work gets done.
> 
> So people like to focus on deep stances and I say ”yes, that is important”.  But there is more to it.  The transitions matter.



What matters most is not putting excess torque on your ankles and knees, either.  The transitions are really about your core, like side horse to forward, or any other.  The static stancework helps you become more light on your feet, and that in turn is where the dynamic power of training the dan tien comes in.

But there is the dark side to all of this training, well known to all the ancient masters.  There's a term for it I won't utter here, but it comes down to degraded cartilage and the joys of bone on bone joint grinds. 

Ouch.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 16, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> What matters most is not putting excess torque on your ankles and knees, either.  The transitions are really about your core, like side horse to forward, or any other.  The static stancework helps you become more light on your feet, and that in turn is where the dynamic power of training the dan tien comes in.
> 
> But there is the dark side to all of this training, well known to all the ancient masters.  There's a term for it I won't utter here, but it comes down to degraded cartilage and the joys of bone on bone joint grinds.
> 
> Ouch.


The pivot and transition needs to be pushed from the feet and work up through the legs, hips, waist, and torso.  No problems with the knees in this way.  If the mistake of turning from the top, meaning the shoulders and torso, and then dragging the legs and feet around, then there is a lot of torque on the knees.  That is where injury happens.

I am not convinced that knee degeneration is guaranteed when stance training is done mindfully and correctly.  My Sifu certainly has no problems and he is in his 80s, been training since the 1950s.  I have no problems, and Ive been training since 1984, including several years of capoeira in the 1990s.  Lots of very low movements there, but I saw a lot of people there have knee problems.  I believe I was more mindful of what was potentially damaging, and I would not cross that line.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 16, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> What matters most is not putting excess torque on your ankles and knees, either.  The transitions are really about your core, like side horse to forward, or any other.  The static stancework helps you become more light on your feet, and that in turn is where the dynamic power of training the dan tien comes in.
> 
> But there is the dark side to all of this training, well known to all the ancient masters.  There's a term for it I won't utter here, but it comes down to degraded cartilage and the joys of bone on bone joint grinds.
> 
> Ouch.


I'm glad that our school always taught us to move within the limitations of our body.  If it doesn't bend that way, then don't bend it that way.  Look at how the knee bends in the image below.  That type of bend will screw up your joints when your leg doesn't naturally bend that way.   Karate Cat stance uses a more natural bend, which is better for the knees.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm glad that our school always taught us to move within the limitations of our body.  If it doesn't bend that way, then don't bend it that way.  Look at how the knee bends in the image below.  That type of bend will screw up your joints when your leg doesn't naturally bend that way.   Karate Cat stance uses a more natural bend, which is better for the knees.


Modern Wushu, which is what that first picture is, is known for being damaging to the body.  It emphasizes aesthetics over proper structure and function.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 17, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Modern Wushu, which is what that first picture is, is known for being damaging to the body.  It emphasizes aesthetics over proper structure and function.


I put it right in the same box with Foot Binding.


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## jobo (Jul 17, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> I thought the biggest part the OP video missed was the mental attitude required for static stancework.  He shows the clip of a certain Drunken Master, but missed the point a little about the whole scene in context of the movie.
> 
> Because the Kinesthetic theory is all well and good but the fact remains that proper stancework (and deep stance footwork) will cause a perfectly athletic, strong person to cry and beg for mercy, and conditioning away that attitude is the quintessence of kung fu.


well yes it will, but is it actually doing any measurable good to performance is another question, that doesnt get asked enough or at all in kung fu circles


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## punisher73 (Jul 17, 2020)

I remember taking a seminar from a local guy (JKD/BJJ) for LEO's.  He was highlighting some stuff from "Dumong" and showing a push/pull on the person so that they couldn't keep their footing and strike you.  Everyone in the class couldn't strike at him and was pushed and pulled all over the place.  When he tried to illustrate it on me, I was able to set into a Shiko-Dachi (Horse stance) each time and could hit him, because I understood the stances from my karate training and that stances SHOULD be used for energy management of yourself (regaining balance, striking etc.) and the energy that your opponent is giving you (moving, redirecting etc.).

I didn't try to resist the push/pull like the others, I waitied until he had extended his range on it and then would immediately set and strike in that instant.  I also think that too many "karotty" people think that their stance should be immovable and plant themselves like a tree.  As my instructor would say, a rock might be stable, but if something hits hit with greater force, its gonna move and its gonna chip.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Jul 17, 2020)

loved this video


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 17, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> I also think that too many "karotty" people think that their stance should be immovable and plant themselves like a tree.


This is the same with kung fu, probably worse, being that's one of the things some of them like to demo. 15 guys pushing on each others' unstable structure while trying to push a person.  I think showmanship like this has done more harm than good. Now it's the expectation of what a horse stance is used for which is why so many people get it wrong.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 18, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I am not convinced that knee degeneration is guaranteed when stance training is done mindfully and correctly. .



Knee degeneration is inevitable.  It does not matter what gung fu you follow. It's the way of nature, eating away at you.  Always eating.

That said, you can at least be mindful and defend yourself at all times.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 18, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I am not convinced that knee degeneration is guaranteed when stance training is done mindfully and correctly


It's not.  Which is why Doctors in the US prescribe Tai Chi for seniors with certain mobility issues.   Most knee degeneration probably comes from people just tearing up their knees and genetics. Think of the average person who does not exercise.  What type of exercise (other than walking) are they doing to condition the knee.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 18, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Knee degeneration is inevitable.  It does not matter what gung fu you follow. It's the way of nature, eating away at you.  Always eating.
> 
> That said, you can at least be mindful and defend yourself at all times.


If you live long enough then it is likely inevitable.  The body does wear out, after all.

People tend to abuse their knees throughout their lives, and that contributes to degeneration.  Obesity is widespread in our culture, and that can be hard on the knees.  People live sedentary lifestyles, their muscle tone lessens and then they do something active that injures a joint like a knee.  Heavy use of the joint in disciplines that involve lots of kicking, especially snap kicking, can contribute, as well as disciplines that include joint manipulations like grappling methods.  These are all things that can lead to knee joint degeneration, but are not guaranteed and would also depend on the specific practices and experiences of the individual.  I am not convinced that stance practice, when done correctly, is guaranteed to contribute to knee degeneration, at least not more than other activities, and quite possibly less if done carefully and mindfully.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

jobo said:


> well yes it will, but is it actually doing any measurable good to performance is another question, that doesnt get asked enough or at all in kung fu circles



Yes.  

As far as measurable good, all I can say is that all the gym bod in the world isn't going to help you stand in a proper ma bu for even a minute, let alone some of the other stances and footwork designed to make you learn how to move your body weight around.

So what does help?  

You probably already know the answer, it's universal but in China it's called 吃苦, eating bitterness, and it's one of the most Shaolin things I can think of.  Of course you can learn this in many different ways, but the Chinese developed some unique ones based on many lifetimes of hard knock lives.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not.  Which is why Doctors in the US prescribe Tai Chi for seniors with certain mobility issues.   Most knee degeneration probably comes from people just tearing up their knees and genetics. Think of the average person who does not exercise.  What type of exercise (other than walking) are they doing to condition the knee.



But not for arthritis or other inflammatory joint conditions.

You can't "condition" your knees either.  You can strengthen tendons and ligaments to a certain degree by carefully controlling your weight and transitions, but it is perilous and more often then not, you're just better off strengthening the muscles support such tender connective tissues.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> If you live long enough then it is likely inevitable.  The body does wear out, after all.
> 
> People tend to abuse their knees throughout their lives, and that contributes to degeneration.  Obesity is widespread in our culture, and that can be hard on the knees.  People live sedentary lifestyles, their muscle tone lessens and then they do something active that injures a joint like a knee.  Heavy use of the joint in disciplines that involve lots of kicking, especially snap kicking, can contribute, as well as disciplines that include joint manipulations like grappling methods.  These are all things that can lead to knee joint degeneration, but are not guaranteed and would also depend on the specific practices and experiences of the individual.  I am not convinced that stance practice, when done correctly, is guaranteed to contribute to knee degeneration, at least not more than other activities, and quite possibly less if done carefully and mindfully.



It's a curious thing, martial artists not believing their arts contribute to their physical decay.  Rather, they tend to believe they can become superhero strong practicing various techniques.  In the old days, they believe it would make them literally immortal.  

Unfortunately it's all self delusion. The truth hurts.  The more you train in sharp, dynamic movements, the more your body will decline over the course of your lifetime.  Especially if you punch and kick things a lot.

That's why diet, above all things, is critical for kung fu.  And nobody here, I'm willing to bet, eats a proper kung fu diet.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's a curious thing, martial artists not believing their arts contribute to their physical decay.  Rather, they tend to believe they can become superhero strong practicing various techniques.  In the old days, they believe it would make them literally immortal.
> 
> Unfortunately it's all self delusion. The truth hurts.  The more you train in sharp, dynamic movements, the more your body will decline over the course of your lifetime.  Especially if you punch and kick things a lot.
> 
> That's why diet, above all things, is critical for kung fu.  And nobody here, I'm willing to bet, eats a proper kung fu diet.


Would you please point out where I said my training will make me “superhero strong”, as you put it? 

Of course a high quality diet is important, and as long as we are going down this road we may as well be up front about the fact that much of what we eat in modern society is low quality.  No argument there.

But there is no such thing as a single “proper Kung fu diet.”  Don’t be that guy who wants to hold out like he knows the one true secret that nobody else knows, that he got the true training that everybody else missed.  It’s a tired act.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> You can't "condition" your knees either. You can strengthen tendons and ligaments to a certain degree by carefully controlling your weight and transitions, but it is perilous and more often then not, you're just better off strengthening the muscles support such tender connective tissues.


You can condition the knee.  Physical therapist are doing just that when they rehab knees.  And before you say that all of the things below are about muscle exercises.  Keep in mind that the muscles to not work independently of tendons and ligaments.

"The Arthritis Foundation state that exercise may be the most effective way to treat osteoarthritis without surgery, while the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons note that strong and flexible muscles can keep knees healthy and prevent injury.
Knee strengthening exercises do not affect the knee joint directly, but they strengthen the muscles surrounding it. Strong muscles in the legs can help provide support for the knees. This support may alleviate pressure and strain on these joints, which can relieve pain and help a person be more active."
Source: Knee strengthening exercises: 6 types and what to avoid

*8 Exercises to Help Your Knees*
"Source: Slideshow: Knee Exercises to Help Prevent Injury

Tai chi can also help your muscle strength and balance, says Leigh F. Callahan, PhD, a professor of medicine at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.  
She led a study based on a tai chi program run by the Arthritis Foundation. The results: People in the 8-week course improved their ability to balance, and reported less pain, fatigue, and stiffness.
Other research, published in the _New England Journal of Medicine_, has found that tai chi can be helpful for people who have fibromyalgia, a condition that causes widespread pain (which may include but is not limited to the joints). It's also been shown to aid people with chronic low back pain, as well as those with ankylosing spondylitis, an inflammatory disease of the spine.
Source: Tai Chi for Joint Health

*The Strength Exercises Your Knees Need*
It turns out, to fix your knees, you have to think outside your knees. People with bad knees should aim to strengthen their hips, Ebner says. Doing so will provide better support for the knees. He recommends the following hip-strengthening exercises.

*1. Resistance-Band Side Step*





Loop a resistance band either above your knees (least resistance), below your knees (medium resistance), or around your ankles (greatest resistance). Bend knees slightly with your feet hip-width apart.

Step to the side until the band provides resistance, then slide your other foot over to re-create your original stance. Repeat this sidestepping movement for 10 to 15 feet in one direction (or as far as you can), and then cover the same distance in the other direction.  Source:* The Best and Worst Exercises for Your Knees*


*Is Squatting Bad for Your Knees?*


The short answer: No, especially with proper conditioning of the knees.

Source: Exercises & Solutions for Crunchy, Painful Knees


Knee Conditioning Program
Bow stance:




Horse Stance




Source
Knee Conditioning Program - OrthoInfo - AAOS


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> But not for arthritis or other inflammatory joint conditions.


When a doctor prescribes Tai Chi, it's usually because of arthritis and other inflammatory joint conditions.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's a curious thing, martial artists not believing their arts contribute to their physical decay. Rather, they tend to believe they can become superhero strong practicing various techniques. In the old days, they believe it would make them literally immortal.


Martial artist are well aware of the dangers that their exercises may cause, which is why we are so big on making students do the exercises the correct way.  I would say that Martial Artists are more in tune with the risks of doing something improperly than a lot of coaches from other sports.  Just like we've been saying here.  If you do the stance training incorrectly then it will mess up your knees.  No one has been dismissive of that fact.  Mainly because there's a lot of things in Martial Arts that if you don't do it correctly you'll mess yourself up.

1. Do Iron palm training incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
2. Do Stance training incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
3. Do side kicks incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
4. Do knee rotation warm ups incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up.
5. Do bone conditioning training incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
6. Do Breathing conditioning incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
7. Make Dit-Da-Jow with the wrong ingredients or wrong concentration - you'll poison yourself.

The list goes on and on. If anything knowledgeable martial artist are well aware of the dangers along with the benefit.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> That's why diet, above all things, is critical for kung fu. And nobody here, I'm willing to bet, eats a proper kung fu diet.


I've done many years of martial arts and talked to many martial artists and I've never heard of a "proper kung fu diet"

Do you take Kung Fu?  Is that something that exists in your kung fu training?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> The more you train in sharp, dynamic movements, the more your body will decline over the course of your lifetime.  Especially if you punch and kick things a lot.


When you are

- young, you need to know how to "develop" your MA skill/ability.
- old, you need to know how to "maintain" your MA skill/ability.

When you are

- young, you want to punch out fast and pull back fast. You may use fast exhale and fast inhale breathing method.
- old, you want to punch out slow and pull back fast. You use slow exhale and fast inhale method.

The slow punch/kick out is better for your joints.


Oily Dragon said:


> eats a proper kung fu diet.


Not sure what kind of Kung Fu diet you are talking about.

I have not eaten any meat since 1980 (40 years ago).  

- My blood pressure remain 108-70. 
- My A1c  is 5.6. 
- My LDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) is 57 (standard range 80 - 130 mg/dl).


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Would you please point out where I said my training will make me “superhero strong”, as you put it?



No, but thanks for asking nicely.



Flying Crane said:


> Of course a high quality diet is important, and as long as we are going down this road we may as well be up front about the fact that much of what we eat in modern society is low quality.  No argument there.
> 
> But there is no such thing as a single “proper Kung fu diet.”  Don’t be that guy who wants to hold out like he knows the one true secret that nobody else knows, that he got the true training that everybody else missed.  It’s a tired act.



There is a proper kung fu diet, but it's not really a secret.  If you don't know what I mean, just ask.

I don't have any secrets, just a commonly natural sense.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> You can condition the knee.  Physical therapist are doing just that when they rehab knees.  And before you say that all of the things below are about muscle exercises.  Keep in mind that the muscles to not work independently of tendons and ligaments.
> 
> "The Arthritis Foundation state that exercise may be the most effective way to treat osteoarthritis without surgery, while the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons note that strong and flexible muscles can keep knees healthy and prevent injury.
> Knee strengthening exercises do not affect the knee joint directly, but they strengthen the muscles surrounding it. Strong muscles in the legs can help provide support for the knees. This support may alleviate pressure and strain on these joints, which can relieve pain and help a person be more active."
> ...



This is not "condition the knees" in a martial arts sense.  This is physical therapy.

When I use the term "condition" I mean things like Iron Palm.  There is no martial "conditioning" of the knees, and I've seen great sifus collapse due to injured knees more than once.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> When a doctor prescribes Tai Chi, it's usually because of arthritis and other inflammatory joint conditions.



No doctors should prescribe Tai Chi for arthritis.

If they do, they're ignoring modern science.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Martial artist are well aware of the dangers that their exercises may cause, which is why we are so big on making students do the exercises the correct way.  I would say that Martial Artists are more in tune with the risks of doing something improperly than a lot of coaches from other sports.  Just like we've been saying here.  If you do the stance training incorrectly then it will mess up your knees.  No one has been dismissive of that fact.  Mainly because there's a lot of things in Martial Arts that if you don't do it correctly you'll mess yourself up.
> 
> 1. Do Iron palm training incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
> 2. Do Stance training incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
> ...



Where you said "dangers", I still claim "inevitability".  And the greatest kung fu masters knew and accepted this ultimate truth, and trained accordingly.  They have words for it, dealing with the pains of older age, especially among the warring classes.

Some of them even delved well beyond the physical, straight into the inner mind and out again.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've done many years of martial arts and talked to many martial artists and I've never heard of a "proper kung fu diet"
> 
> Do you take Kung Fu?  Is that something that exists in your kung fu training?



Odd, you train Jow Ga, and the kung fu diet has long been disseminated among the Five major Southern Families.

It looks like you've missed out, but that's a wonderful blessing because I keep great notes, and my favorite kung fu notes are those devoted to cooking.

How familiar are you with authentic Cantonese cuisine?  That's the best place to start when discussing kung fu diets and static stancework.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> No doctors should prescribe Tai Chi for arthritis.
> 
> If they do, they're ignoring modern science.


Modern science says that there is a benefit which is why more western doctors are prescribing Tai Chi.  That's why I added those links so you can read about the research from modern science.



Oily Dragon said:


> When I use the term "condition" I mean things like Iron Palm. There is no martial "conditioning" of the knees, and I've seen great sifus collapse due to injured knees more than once.


In kung fu we condition our knees with stances not by slamming our knees into hard objects.  You have a misconception about what it means to condition the knees.  Conditioning the knees in Kung Fu is a gentle process because if it's done incorrectly you'll screw up your knees.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Modern science says that there is a benefit which is why more western doctors are prescribing Tai Chi.  That's why I added those links so you can read about the research from modern science.



It doesn't say that.  Your links are fine, your conclusion isn't.

Tai Chi for Chronic Pain Conditions: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Randomized Controlled Trials



JowGaWolf said:


> In kung fu we condition our knees with stances not by slamming our knees into hard objects.  You have a misconception about what it means to condition the knees.  Conditioning the knees in Kung Fu is a gentle process because if it's done incorrectly you'll screw up your knees.



Nothing about kung fu is gentle.  And you are using "incorrectly" as a crutch.  That's ok.  I don't judge.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Odd, you train Jow Ga, and the kung fu diet has long been disseminated among the Five major Southern Families.
> 
> It looks like you've missed out, but that's a wonderful blessing because I keep great notes, and my favorite kung fu notes are those devoted to cooking.
> 
> How familiar are you with authentic Cantonese cuisine?  That's the best place to start when discussing kung fu diets and static stancework.


My Jow Ga diet is simply eat healthy and stay away from things that aren't healthy.  I eat a lot of what dieticians say to eat and sneak a little bit of what I'm not supposed to eat. Like the 4 cookies I just finished eating.   As for Authentic Cantonese Cuisine, it's like everything else.  Some of it's healthy and some of it isn't.  Depending on your genetic make up certain foods are going to be less health for some while others are going to be just fine.   I didn't miss out.  My wife cooks Authentic Cantonese Cuisine because that's what she grew up with with so I know from experience that some of that is healthy and some of it isn't.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> It doesn't say that. Your links are fine, your conclusion isn't.


That's because you have to go beyond just reading the articles.  Look at up the studies that are listed in some of those articles.  I've already done this in the past and I'm not doing it again just for you.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Nothing about kung fu is gentle. And you are using "incorrectly" as a crutch. That's ok. I don't judge.


My Kung Fu training for shadow boxing all starts out like this.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's because you have to go beyond just reading the articles.  Look at up the studies that are listed in some of those articles.  I've already done this in the past and I'm not doing it again just for you.



You're ignoring the studies that say Tai Chi for arthritis is bad for you.  Do you only like studies that press your point?


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> No, but thanks for asking nicely.



You won’t point it out?  Or you cannot, because I never said it...



> There is a proper kung fu diet, but it's not really a secret.  If you don't know what I mean, just ask.
> 
> I don't have any secrets, just a commonly natural sense.


I’m not gonna ask.  I’ve seen this game before.  You want people to come begging for your wisdom.  

So, no.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> My Jow Ga diet is simply eat healthy and stay away from things that aren't healthy.  I eat a lot of what dieticians say to eat and sneak a little bit of what I'm not supposed to eat. Like the 4 cookies I just finished eating.   As for Authentic Cantonese Cuisine, it's like everything else.  Some of it's healthy and some of it isn't.  Depending on your genetic make up certain foods are going to be less health for some while others are going to be just fine.   I didn't miss out.  My wife cooks Authentic Cantonese Cuisine because that's what she grew up with with so I know from experience that some of that is healthy and some of it isn't.



Are you saying you haven't learned your wife's cooking then??

Talk about a gap in your kung fu routine.

I was hoping to have an above board conversation about South China's influence on cooking and martial arts stances.  You're not ready?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> You won’t point it out?  Or you cannot, because I never said it...



When did I say you said it?

Cat got your tongue?

A duck, maybe?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> You're ignoring the studies that say Tai Chi for arthritis is bad for you.  Do you only like studies that press your point?


I'm not ignoring those studies.  My point was to show that Doctors prescribe Tai Chi for Arthritis and I did. 

You are the one who wants to show that Tai Chi for arthritis is bad for you.  So you should be the one to post medical research that shows Tai Chi is bad for Arthritis.  I'm not going to go out and find those links for you.  If that's what you believe then post your reference links.  Why should I do that for you?


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> When did I say you said it?
> 
> Cat got your tongue?
> 
> A duck, maybe?


Well, you implied it in a response to my post.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not ignoring those studies.  My point was to show that Doctors prescribe Tai Chi for Arthritis and I did.
> 
> You are the one who wants to show that Tai Chi for arthritis is bad for you.  So you should be the one to post medical research that shows Tai Chi is bad for Arthritis.  I'm not going to go out and find those links for you.  If that's what you believe then post your reference links.  Why should I do that for you?



For me?

Or for you?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Are you saying you haven't learned your wife's cooking then??
> 
> Talk about a gap in your kung fu routine.
> 
> I was hoping to have an above board conversation about South China's influence on cooking and martial arts stances.  You're not ready?


I've learned my wife's cooking and I often try to get her to eat less of some of it because it's high in sodium.  The other thing is.  You don't need to have me in order to start a conversation about South Chin's influence on cooking and martial arts stances.  If you want to start one, then open a new thread and just have it.  Like literally there's nothing stopping  you from having that conversation.   Don't wait on me to ask you about "South China's influence on cooking and martial arts stances"  I won't ask you.  

The most I know about Martial arts stances is that stances reflect the environment in which the martial art system is used.   So your topic of cooking and martial arts stances isn't going to interest me.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> For me?
> 
> Or for you?


If you want to show that Tai Chi is bad for Arthritis then post y our reference links.  I'm not going to do that for you.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've learned my wife's cooking and I often try to get her to eat less of some of it because it's high in sodium.  The other thing is.  You don't need to have me in order to start a conversation about South Chin's influence on cooking and martial arts stances.  If you want to start one, then open a new thread and just have it.  Like literally there's nothing stopping  you from having that conversation.   Don't wait on me to ask you about "South China's influence on cooking and martial arts stances"  I won't ask you.
> 
> The most I know about Martial arts stances is that stances reflect the environment in which the martial art system is used.   So your topic of cooking and martial arts stances isn't going to interest me.



Too bad.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you want to show that Tai Chi is bad for Arthritis then post y our reference links.  I'm not going to do that for you.



Did I ask you?

It's out there whether you want to admit it or not.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Too bad.


only for you.  You are the one that wants to have that conversation and no one to have it with  lol


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> only for you.  You are the one that wants to have that conversation and no one to have it with  lol



You mad?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Did I ask you?
> 
> It's out there whether you want to admit it or not.


Not my problem.  My goal was to show that Doctors prescribe Tai Chi to people with Arthritis and I did that by posting links to it.  As to your claim. That has nothing to do with the fact that there are doctors who prescribe Tai Chi to people with Arthritis.  How you feel about it it, didn't change the fact that they prescribed it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> You mad?


mad about what?  You haven't said anything to make me mad.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not my problem.  My goal was to show that Doctors prescribe Tai Chi to people with Arthritis and I did that by posting links to it.  As to your claim. That has nothing to do with the fact that there are doctors who prescribe Tai Chi to people with Arthritis.  How you feel about it it, didn't change the fact that they prescribed it.



I said how I felt about it.  They should be sued for malpractice.

Tai chi isn't a medical prescription.

If it was, at least one of my doctors might have prescribed it.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> mad about what?  You haven't said anything to make me mad.



You're doing a lot of ranting.  That's the sign of a mad mind.

Why don't you try matching wits.  I've seen your "stancework" I'm ready for you.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've learned my wife's cooking and I often try to get her to eat less of some of it because it's high in sodium.  The other thing is.  You don't need to have me in order to start a conversation about South Chin's influence on cooking and martial arts stances.  If you want to start one, then open a new thread and just have it.  Like literally there's nothing stopping  you from having that conversation.   Don't wait on me to ask you about "South China's influence on cooking and martial arts stances"  I won't ask you.
> 
> The most I know about Martial arts stances is that stances reflect the environment in which the martial art system is used.   So your topic of cooking and martial arts stances isn't going to interest me.


I suppose if the cooking is too spicy, that might affect your stance a bit...


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> ou're doing a lot of ranting. That's the sign of a mad mind.


if you say so.



Oily Dragon said:


> Why don't you try matching wits. I've seen your "stancework" I'm ready for you.


I have no idea what you are talking about when you say matching wits 
I'm not sure what my stance work has to do with "matching wits".

I already know how this is going to turn out.   
1. You'll state your views
2. I'll state my views
3.  You'll disagree with me.
4. I'll show a video of me doing stance work
5. You'll continue to disagree with me and you'll never show a video of you doing stance work in the manner that you recommend that I should be doing it.
8. I'll show another video of me training my stances and how they apply in actual free sparring.
9.  You'll continue to disagree with me and you'll never show a video of you applying a stance in the manner that you recommend that I should be doig it.
10.  That will be the end of the conversation, debate, and "matching wits".  Me showing what I'm capable of due to my training,  You showing nothing.  Neither you nor or I will benefit from that discussion
11.  Then the tread will spin off into something other than what was stated in the original post.
12. When it's all said and done.  No one will care about the Original post including you, who posted it.

That's how things play out with people who want to debate for the sake of debating.   I didn't join this group to "match wits"  I joined this group to learn from other people's experience and to learn more about the martial arts that they train.  I'm able to get it from people from time to time,  but over the past year it's been like pulling my own teeth.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> if you say so.
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about when you say matching wits
> ...


See my previous post, #60.  His ego is begging for some attention.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I suppose if the cooking is too spicy, that might affect your stance a bit...


yes the good old toilet stance.  Similar to the horse stance but with a lot of forward lean.  Well known for use with the explosive diarrhea  technique. But when done incorrectly, one will quickly learn "in the bowl, is better than out the bowl" lol


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> yes the good old toilet stance.  Similar to the horse stance but with a lot of forward lean.  Well known for use with the explosive diarrhea  technique. But when done incorrectly, one will quickly learn "in the bowl, is better than out the bowl" lol


It’s known as a “delayed death” technique.  12-24 hours is typical...


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> See my previous post, #60.  His ego is begging for some attention.


You are spot on with that post.   It gets tiring lol.  When things get tiring I just become really blunt and I blame my wife for that lol.  I fear my by the time I hit 60 or 70's it's just going to be straight from the brain to the mouth with no filter lol


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> You are spot on with that post.   It gets tiring lol.  When things get tiring I just become really blunt and I blame my wife for that lol.  I fear my by the time I hit 60 or 70's it's just going to be straight from the brain to the mouth with no filter lol


Git off my lawn you kids!!!


----------



## punisher73 (Jul 19, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Martial artist are well aware of the dangers that their exercises may cause, which is why we are so big on making students do the exercises the correct way.  I would say that Martial Artists are more in tune with the risks of doing something improperly than a lot of coaches from other sports.  Just like we've been saying here.  If you do the stance training incorrectly then it will mess up your knees.  No one has been dismissive of that fact.  Mainly because there's a lot of things in Martial Arts that if you don't do it correctly you'll mess yourself up.
> 
> 1. Do Iron palm training incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
> 2. Do Stance training incorrectly - you'll mess yourself up
> ...



I agree with the above points.  My background is karate, and the Okinawans viewed protection of their body to include longevity and being pain free as part of "self-defense" and it wasn't just all about fighting.  I think that is one of the things that MMA misses the mark on.  For most, the focus is just on the fighting and doing whatever it takes to win in the cage and they aren't concerned about the long term effects and damage that they are doing to their bodies.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 20, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> if you say so.
> I have no idea what you are talking about when you say matching wits
> I'm not sure what my stance work has to do with "matching wits".
> 
> I already know how this is going to turn out.



No you don't.

I have a whole treatise here in front of me discussing a proper kung fu diet, literally entitled Shíwù de néngliàng xué (The Energetics of Food).

And I'm willing to share the wisdom within, and how it translates to static stancework.

Unless of course, you know everything already.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 20, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> See my previous post, #60.  His ego is begging for some attention.



Maybe your kung fu herbology and diet education is just sorely lacking.  It's not that uncommon for people to learn a little and then talk big.  I prefer to learn a lot, and then keep it concise. 

Word to the wise: don't take yourself so seriously, it's counterproductive to the learning process.

Do you even know how many of the Five Tastes the wǔ wèi zi contains?  Are you willing to be taught, or like Jow Ga, is your cup already full?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 20, 2020)

And if that's not enough of my big fat ego (it's so so big), here's a medical source that ties antioxidant activity of deoxyschizandrin drawn from that very famous Manchurian kung fu berry to joint health.  Something I learned from kung fu, not medical school.

But of course, you already knew this, because your egos are all so, so small.

Deoxyschizandrin, Isolated from Schisandra Berries, Induces Cell Cycle Arrest in Ovarian Cancer Cells and Inhibits the Protumoural Activation of Tumour-Associated Macrophages - PubMed


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 20, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> No you don't.
> 
> I have a whole treatise here in front of me discussing a proper kung fu diet, literally entitled Shíwù de néngliàng xué (The Energetics of Food).
> 
> ...


So share it. Preferably in a new thread where it's relevant. Don't continue begging people to ask for it, when it's not something they're interested in.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 20, 2020)

@JowGaWolf I have the DSM-5 in front of me. A whole book on mental disorders. I'm willing to share how it relates to stance work _and _chinese cooking. Unless you already know everything. 

But you have to ask. If you don't you're letting your ego get the best of you and lreventing me from sharing my amazing knowledge.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 20, 2020)

I almost forgot, I am such a big ego fatty, I went ahead and spent the time to hunt down those sources about Tai Chi and arthritis for you.  When you actually compare studies you'll find that most of the benefits from Tai Chi for arthritis are mental, not physical or anatomical.  

That's because Tai Chi lowers stress and distracts the mind from nerve pain.

Tai Chi for people with rheumatoid arthritis
Tai chi for rheumatoid arthritis: systematic review - Database of Abstracts of Reviews of Effects (DARE): Quality-assessed Reviews - NCBI Bookshelf


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 20, 2020)

And by the way, since we're talking about stances, joint health, and the martial arts.  MMA and TMA have a common enemy: sugar.

Oreos are more addictive than heroin and cocaine, and sugar and alcohol are both anathema to a proper kung fu diet.  In fact, eliminating both is mentioned right here in the Shíwù de néngliàng xué!  That's because Chinese kung fu masters (and their big egos) knew that fighting a lot while on high sucrose diets led to joint annihilation thousands of years ago and this knowledge has been advanced by kung fu sifus for centuries, along with other TCM theories.  

Now, I won't say I buy all TCM theories, but the ones about sugar and alcohol turn out to align with modern medicine.  Sugar is poison to a kung fu student.  Alcohol before or after training is even worse, but many do it, not realizing the damage they're doing to their joints, livers, kidneys, and heart.

For proof outside of kung fu, just look at wrestling.  Wrestling and sugar are also anathema, and this is also a time honored, well known dietary advice in wrestling circles.  Boxing, wrestling, MMA, and physical therapy coaches all advise avoiding sugar intake during training.  

But one look at many kung fu students will prove that they didn't get this memo.

Wrestlers Looking for an Edge? It isn’t Sugar! – True Wrestling


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 20, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> So share it. Preferably in a new thread where it's relevant. Don't continue begging people to ask for it, when it's not something they're interested in.



They should be interested in their joint health, and how it relates to their diet, especially in a thread about stances.  There are things you should eat to promote healthy stancework, and things you should avoid like the plague.  The original video discussion was about "why stances", but that's superficial.  There is a more in depth anatomical and dietary discussion we should have.  If people don't want to discuss it, it doesn't hurt to make them aware.

The TMA/MMA stancework debate ties into diet strongly.  It really doesn't matter what style we're talking about, but diet is at the top of the list when it comes to repetitive stancework in any martial art, whether static or dynamic.

There is a huge amount of kung fu training devoted to dietary needs for training, herbs, liniment recipes, and a lot of it is intended to protect the joints and organs from damage due to extensive stancework and footwork.  This is because training stances and footwork without dietary considerations leads to long term injury, and this is common knowledge among quality kung fu sifus.  

I'm really surprised people who claim to be kung fu pros online, especially the ones posting videos, are not familiar with this stuff.  I've found this a lot, they know bits and pieces but are missing a lot of the underbelly.  So, I offer it freely.

I don't consider myself an expert at all, so how is it I have this stuff and others don't.  I'm just lucky I guess.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 20, 2020)

Ginseng root, also great for promoting healthy, inflammation free stancework and avoiding repetitive stress injuries from footwork.  Something Asian arts have known for a while, and Western arts are catching up on.

This is why ren shen chá (ginseng root tea) has long been a staple kung fu recipe (half to 3 grams dosage, no more unless you are treating hypotension).

Of the 50 odd fundamental herbs in Chinese herbology, wild ginseng is prized almost above all others, especially in TMA circles.  For that reason, it is the most harvested plant in North America (a fact nobody I've ever met seems to know other than my kung fu sifus).

I'll leave it at that.  I think the usual "MMA vs TMA" videos discussions get dry and boring, so I spiced things up a bit, pun intended.

If anybody is really interested in exploring the Energetics of Food more, I'll make a separate thread.   If not, then at least a few people learned something new to pass on, like I am.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 20, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> @JowGaWolf I have the DSM-5 in front of me. A whole book on mental disorders. I'm willing to share how it relates to stance work _and _chinese cooking. Unless you already know everything.
> 
> But you have to ask. If you don't you're letting your ego get the best of you and lreventing me from sharing my amazing knowledge.


lol..  I'm trying my best not to be super blunt about Kung fu, Diet, and stance work.  I'm literally sitting here right now trying to think about something I will probably never be interested in. Like how to knit or how to make dresses.  Then I give myself 2 options. That or Kung Fu Diet and Stance training.  So far I've been willing to do everything else but read about Kung Fu Diet and Stance training. 

Just to give you an example.  I thought.  Between making gift item out of cow manure and reading Kung Fu Diet and Stancework.  Which would be more excited.  So I picked the Manure.  I couldn't find any gift items, so I did a search on Polished  Manure. which led me to 2 things  Merdacotta and Japanese Hikaru Dorodango.  Which then led me to Cow Dung Floors

Merdacotta looks like this.  But it's made of manure. Yum.





Japanese Hikaru Dorodango looks like this.  Now I want to go polish some dirt.









Which was interesting because he didn't refer to it as Cow Manure, I calls it Cow S... lol.

So back to the reason I'm telling you this.  I'm spent the last 20 minutes looking at things made from cow manure and dirt. Shared with you, and feel like it was still a good use of my time. Not once did it come to mind that I want to learn about Kung Fu Diet and how it relates to stance work. So at this point I know that my interest in dirt and cow manure floors is higher than my desire to know about Kung Fu Diet and Stancework.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 20, 2020)

Watch out, snark on the internet!  

is Tai Chi weakening my knees??

For real Jow Ga, if you don't drink Ginseng tea already, you should start or all that footwork you are doing in your videos will take a nasty toll on your body, especially if your wife's cooking is heavy on the umami (and I don't think pills or tablets work nearly as well but that's just my preference).

Truth is I'm just looking out for you.  You'll find I am friendly, generous, and forthcoming when it comes to sharing kung fu "secrets" like herbal tea recipes.  These have been passed down for countless generations because of their therapeutic effects, and kung fu masters treasure them accordingly.  Jow Ga the style being the mashup art that it is, you likely just missed out on this particular subset of CMA training.  

No problem though, we all have something new to learn at any given moment.  I for one never knew you could make dinnerware from poo, but thanks to you, I have been enlightened.

The Diet of the Shaolin Monks - Earthship Biotecture


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 20, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Watch out, snark on the internet!
> 
> is Tai Chi weakening my knees??
> 
> ...


  I drink enough herbal tea to pee a pharmacy.  My dad (who is obviously much older than me) took Ginsing for his joints.  It didn't help and the cartilage is deteriorating.  I used to have bad knees.  An indian doctor discovered my knee joint pain was the result of a tendon twisted around the muscles in a funky way.  He fix that for me for free,   He used to take Tai Chi in the same school.  I no longer have the issues that I used to have with my knees.  My stances are stronger and eveything is back in alignment. 

My point is,  While food and diet is important sometimes you just need to see the right doctor about joint issues.  I did (very fortunate) my did didn't and tried to only fix it with ginseng.   So  I'm going to keep doing what I do.  The choices I make in life, including the once that make no sense to others seem to always put me where I need to be, when I need to be.


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## jobo (Jul 20, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Watch out, snark on the internet!
> 
> is Tai Chi weakening my knees??
> 
> ...


 can you post a few herbal tea recipes? i love it when people enthuse about infusions

do you have any with nettles, we have lots of nettles but no Ginseng


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## Headhunter (Jul 20, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Watch out, snark on the internet!
> 
> is Tai Chi weakening my knees??
> 
> ...


Yeah....there is no way in hell I’d ever try any of that stuff....I’ve had decades of training and full contact fighting and my bodies just fine without any of that


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## Flying Crane (Jul 20, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> And by the way, since we're talking about stances, joint health, and the martial arts.  MMA and TMA have a common enemy: sugar.
> 
> Oreos are more addictive than heroin and cocaine, and sugar and alcohol are both anathema to a proper kung fu diet.  In fact, eliminating both is mentioned right here in the Shíwù de néngliàng xué!  That's because Chinese kung fu masters (and their big egos) knew that fighting a lot while on high sucrose diets led to joint annihilation thousands of years ago and this knowledge has been advanced by kung fu sifus for centuries, along with other TCM theories.



Sugar was common in the diet thousands of years ago?  



> Alcohol before or after training is even worse, but many do it, not realizing the damage they're doing to their joints, livers, kidneys, and heart.



Everyone knows this.  It is common knowledge.  That’s why I only drink alcohol _during_ training.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 20, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah....there is no way in hell I’d ever try any of that stuff....I’ve had decades of training and full contact fighting and my bodies just fine without any of that


Ginseng in the US hasn't had a good reputation.  It used to be the "in heath supplement."   I'm cautious about health supplements since they can skirt around FDA regulations.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 20, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Sugar was common in the diet thousands of years ago?


I'm assuming we are talking about refined sugar (the white sugar) and not natural sugar like honey.  Sugar has been around for a long time but I'm not sure when refined sugar was invented.  Most likely refined sugar was expensive so only certain people would actually have access to it.

In terms of refined sugar, the question would be, did kung fu schools have access to sugar in the first place.  If they didn't have access to it, then they wouldn't have used it anyway.  Considering that most of the world was poor. I can imagine gardens and farms being a big thing.  If someone was to put us in a shack in the woods with a bag of seeds, we probably wouldn't be to concern with refining sugar.  It may be better to just find some honey bees and save the honey and spend the rest of the time making sure that the crops grew.  Refine sugar seems to be something that one would do if they had a lot of time on their hands.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 20, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm assuming we are talking about refined sugar (the white sugar) and not natural sugar like honey.  Sugar has been around for a long time but I'm not sure when refined sugar was invented.  Most likely refined sugar was expensive so only certain people would actually have access to it.
> 
> In terms of refined sugar, the question would be, did kung fu schools have access to sugar in the first place.  If they didn't have access to it, then they wouldn't have used it anyway.  Considering that most of the world was poor. I can imagine gardens and farms being a big thing.  If someone was to put us in a shack in the woods with a bag of seeds, we probably wouldn't be to concern with refining sugar.  It may be better to just find some honey bees and save the honey and spend the rest of the time making sure that the crops grew.  Refine sugar seems to be something that one would do if they had a lot of time on their hands.


A brief google-fu tells me the it was first refined something like 2500 years ago, but was rare in the diet until sometime in the 1600s when it began to be refined commercially in the new world by the Portuguese on their plantations in Brazil.

Of course natural sugar like honey, or what occurs in fruit, would have been available to some extent.  Would that stuff have been for the exclusive use of the elite?  Perhaps.

But what I was hinting at was, it’s unlikely that kung fu people “thousands of years ago” would have had a high enough discretionary sugar content in their diet to distinguish its effects.

Let’s be real.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 20, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Everyone knows this.  It is common knowledge.  That’s why I only drink alcohol _during_ training.


You should, if your goal is self-defense. A lot of fights end up happening in bars, so you need to be able to fight while drunk. Otherwise it's just not realistic. Use that line next time someone says competition is the best way to train self-defense; they don't allow you to be drunk in the ring.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 20, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> But what I was hinting at was, it’s unlikely that kung fu people “thousands of years ago” would have had a high enough discretionary sugar content in their diet to distinguish its effects.
> 
> Let’s be real.


I don't think so either. I don't see anyone going around stating not to eat sugar.  I think I'm going to stick with this info here.  It talks about how sugar was used in China.
Sugar: An Ancient Culinary and Medical Commodity

This seems to be more accurate than the other resources I've found.  Which had more of a commodity perspective of sugar.   

This shows sugar being used as medicine (which would be counter to the good health argument, unless it was natural sugar and not refined sugar) The Ultimate Guide to Chinese Sugars and Sweeteners

Based on what I could find the Chinese actually used a lot of sugar but not much refined sugar.  They also ate a lot of dried food.  Which make sense when they don't have a way to keep things like meat and other perishables fresh.  Their traditional cooking was based on how to cook food in a way that doesn't spoil quickly so it took a while for refrigerators to catch on in China.  Didn't see much about "cooking for health"  My guess they were like most people in the world.  People were lucky enough to have food on the table even if it was a bunch of leafy plants.  Food for necessity vs food for enjoyment.  Sounds like much of their food development was similar to how other cultures prepared their dishes.

I didn't see anything on those pages that would suggest an Anti-sugar movement like we see now.  If I had to guess getting sugar wasn't exactly as easy as going to the supermarket.  Because of that their sugar use would have solely been based on rationing sugar and not eating it up all at once.  In the U.S. it's totally opposite.  Everything has sugar and salt.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 25, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah....there is no way in hell I’d ever try any of that stuff....I’ve had decades of training and full contact fighting and my bodies just fine without any of that



So you're the magic ninja around here, huh?  You'd never try ginseng?  It's literally kung fu medicine.

It might not work for everyone, but you never know what else they're consuming.  Cigarettes?  A lot of great kung fu masters smoked themselves to death.  

Some of them are revered, even, and one has to wonder why.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 25, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Sugar was common in the diet thousands of years ago?
> 
> Everyone knows this.  It is common knowledge.  That’s why I only drink alcohol _during_ training.



Yes.  A history of sugar – the food nobody needs, but everyone craves

Actually, one of the hallmarks of the current state of human evolution is the consumption of sugar.

Why do you think they call it the "Paleo" diet?  It's very different.  It's also 12,000 years old.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 25, 2020)

jobo said:


> can you post a few herbal tea recipes? i love it when people enthuse about infusions
> 
> do you have any with nettles, we have lots of nettles but no Ginseng



I have a guide in Word format somewhere on a backup drive, I'll have to check up on it.

Suffice to say, kung fu medicine is at least half of kung fu stancework.  If you don't account for the inflammation caused by some of these external exercises, you're going to regret it later.  Your mileage may vary.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 25, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm assuming we are talking about refined sugar (the white sugar) and not natural sugar like honey.  Sugar has been around for a long time but I'm not sure when refined sugar was invented.  Most likely refined sugar was expensive so only certain people would actually have access to it.
> 
> In terms of refined sugar, the question would be, did kung fu schools have access to sugar in the first place.  If they didn't have access to it, then they wouldn't have used it anyway.  Considering that most of the world was poor. I can imagine gardens and farms being a big thing.  If someone was to put us in a shack in the woods with a bag of seeds, we probably wouldn't be to concern with refining sugar.  It may be better to just find some honey bees and save the honey and spend the rest of the time making sure that the crops grew.  Refine sugar seems to be something that one would do if they had a lot of time on their hands.



Of course they did.  Ip Man had ample access to opiods, too.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 25, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Yes.  A history of sugar – the food nobody needs, but everyone craves
> 
> Actually, one of the hallmarks of the current state of human evolution is the consumption of sugar.
> 
> Why do you think they call it the "Paleo" diet?  It's very different.  It's also 12,000 years old.


Yes, that is the same article that I found.  Sugar first refined 2500 years ago.  First refined on a large, commercial level in the 1600s on the Brazilian sugar plantations.  Prior to Brazil, sugar was uncommon in the human diet.   Ergo, no kung fu masters from thousands of years ago would have had enough sugar in the diet to have determined its effects in large quantities.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 26, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Of course they did.  Ip Man had ample access to opiods, too.


Drugs like opioids are different.  They aren't based on how much money you can make.  They are often given to those who have little money and are sold by those who have a lot of money.  That has always been the case with drugs that are highly addictive and do harm.  You can't compare opioids to food.  That would be like saying me saying that everyone has access to Caviar because everyone has access to opioids, which isn't true.  Pick any large inner city neighborhood and I guarantee that that it'll be easier to buy opioids in that neighborhood than it is to buy caviar.  I guarantee opioids are also cheaper

Certain items are seen by the upper income levels as exclusive to them and the price fits.  Poor people probably had access to Cane Sugar with no problem, but can sugar is not the same as Refined Sugar.  Refined Sugar is the unhealthy sugar.   I'm not sure if you have eaten raw sugar cane before, but I grew up on it.  Sugar Cane doesn't taste like refined sugar.  Far from it.  Even honey is sweeter than cane sugar.  

The problem that your article has is that the article doesn't talk about how sugar was used or cooked with


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, that is the same article that I found.  Sugar first refined 2500 years ago.  First refined on a large, commercial level in the 1600s on the Brazilian sugar plantations.  Prior to Brazil, sugar was uncommon in the human diet.   Ergo, no kung fu masters from thousands of years ago would have had enough sugar in the diet to have determined its effects in large quantities.


Refined sugar was probably uncommon because it was an expensive product back then.  The process to refine sugar wouldn't have been as extensive as it is now and it wouldn't have been something that poor people would have access to.   Like some of the food items today, those items would mainly be eaten by people who had a lot of money.  A good example that I can think of is Lobster.  Lobster is expensive so many people don't buy it, compared to the people who buy and eat crabs, which can be found in a lot of the middle to lower income areas.

I did a quick search for lobster and the price of lobster is or was $16 per pound.  The average weight of a lobster is 10 pounds.  There's no person that 's going to buy that whole lobster.  And I purchased it to cook with, then there's no way I would sell the total parts, or a dish that would be less than what I bought it for.  Blue crab has very little meat in comparison to lobster so you'll find crabs in the poorest of neighbor hoods especially if you live in one of the coastal states.

Oily Dragon is making the assumption that because Sugar was available, that it was available to all, and that's just not the case when it comes to food.  It never has been.  Rich people often had a large variety of food, while poor people often ate plants and other foots with minimum nutrients.  It has always been that way and they definitely wouldn't know enough about sugar to have the same understanding of it in making people fat and unhealthy.  Being that most people had manual labor jobs.

My guess is that the diet was mainly based on what they could find to eat vs what they choose to eat.  They ate certain things because that's all there was. The large variety of strange food in China makes me think that food shortages were bad enough that "eating anything that moved" became  the rule.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Refined sugar was probably uncommon because it was an expensive product back then.  The process to refine sugar wouldn't have been as extensive as it is now and it wouldn't have been something that poor people would have access to.   Like some of the food items today, those items would mainly be eaten by people who had a lot of money.  A good example that I can think of is Lobster.  Lobster is expensive so many people don't buy it, compared to the people who buy and eat crabs, which can be found in a lot of the middle to lower income areas.
> 
> I did a quick search for lobster and the price of lobster is or was $16 per pound.  The average weight of a lobster is 10 pounds.  There's no person that 's going to buy that whole lobster.  And I purchased it to cook with, then there's no way I would sell the total parts, or a dish that would be less than what I bought it for.  Blue crab has very little meat in comparison to lobster so you'll find crabs in the poorest of neighbor hoods especially if you live in one of the coastal states.
> 
> ...


Full agreement, especially when we are talking about people who lived “thousands of years ago”.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Full agreement, especially when we are talking about people who lived “thousands of years ago”.


I think people in general have a tendency to project the future onto the past and believe that the same understanding that we have today is the same understanding that decisions were based on hundreds of years in the past. People forget to look at history from the perspective of how life was back then.

I know if we threw Oily Dragon a thousand years into the past in a small Chinese village, the last thing he will be thinking about is the dietary affect of refined sugar on a kung fu stance lol.  First thing he's going to think about is "How to get and keep, Shelter, drinkable water, and food followed by clothing."  Even if he were to take the knowledge that he has today, the affect of refined sugar on kung fu stances is going to be really low on the list.

Chinese Culture has traditionally eaten insects which is actually the norm globally. It's mainly Americans who think that's weird.  So my bet would be that Oily Dragon will be trying to adjust to which insects he's going to eat with or without his rice lol.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Refined sugar was probably uncommon because it was an expensive product back then.



The colour of your teeth/status of them was a indicator of wealth for a peroid of time in some culture/country i forgot.   Sugar was used to discolour/rot it, and if you had rotten/dicoloured it meant you had access to sugar.   (which as you have all ready established was a luxary before modernity)

I put the growth of sugar down to, fat being shunned thus needing things for taste and not realsiing it was bad for anyone and making things taste better.   Salts sort of the same thing,  but salt has been used as a preservative. (which gives it value all to itself if we are talking about food preservation)



Worth noting the reverse has happened as well, some things that were viewed as common items or items every household had, arent anymore.  Many things have gone down this road, its just down to supply and demand and whats needed for what.  Guano isnt a million pound industry today as it was 200 years ago.


Some of these are weird, others not so much.       Fun thing, your body is used to proccessing what ever has been your cultures staple for the last 1,000 or so years.   I belive the intestinal track of the countries that had rice as a staple is longer on average than ones that didnt.  (i dont know if its related, it was cited like it was)


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 26, 2020)

Rat said:


> The colour of your teeth/status of them was a indicator of wealth for a peroid of time in some culture/country i forgot. Sugar was used to discolour/rot it, and if you had rotten/dicoloured it meant you had access to sugar. (which as you have all ready established was a luxary before modernity)


First time hearing this.  I didn't know but it falls in line with other cultures who did similar things.   Fat meant you were rich.  Japanese used to dye their teeth black to signify beauty "Ohaguro" ,  Inner city hip hop culture had "grillz" with all sorts of stuff on their teeth to show that they were rich.



Rat said:


> I belive the intestinal track of the countries that had rice as a staple is longer on average than ones that didnt. (i dont know if its related, it was cited like it was)


 I read this too, but I think they eat a different type of rice.  I could be wrong.  They also ate a lot of other foods,  (I think fish) that may have actually balance out any risk if there was any.   I read the same thing as well, but this only existed in a certain area of japan that had the rice and fish as a staple.

Rice is good for you but the bleached rice isn't.  Bread is good for you, but not the bread made from the white flour.   I think a lot of the modern day food risk that we have is due to how we process the food, which "taints" the food in a way.  I'm not talking about just the adding of chemicals, I'm also talking  other things that are so much adding chemicals as it is removing things.  For example,  Low Fat milk.  About 15 years ago they discovered that the fat in whole milk actually helps you to absorb vitamin D in the body.  When they remove the fat, the milk becomes more or less useless in terms of providing the body with Vitamin D.  

I know in western cultures we tend to single out one element thinking that it may be healthier to get rid of it.  But we never think about the "whole of things" and if that one element plays a vital role and by removing it we break the chain and make the product less beneficial.



.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> First time hearing this. I didn't know but it falls in line with other cultures who did similar things. Fat meant you were rich. Japanese used to dye their teeth black to signify beauty "Ohaguro" , Inner city hip hop culture had "grillz" with all sorts of stuff on their teeth to show that they were rich.



i dont recall where, im going to say newengland/england.  At some point.   If your teeth were brown it was a status thing.   I think they may have done the same thing for tobacco. (but that could just be me assimilating something out of context and incorrectly)


For the second bit, if i recall japan, Noodles and Rice were staples supplimented with fish, whale etc.  The growth of buddhism in the region kind of influenced what foods they ate.    I dont know how many vegables were grown, or if potatoes etc were.   But i think meat has only recently became a staple of theirs.

Apparntly some rice fields have arsnic in them.   either natural or man made.


For the milk thing, blame dietrictians in the 70's-80's, thats the peroid it was all about tackling fat and fat is the issue etc.   Now days over eating on sugar is more common, and thats put in pretty much everything thats fat free to make it taste well.  And as you are more likely yo over eat sugar than fat, the issue is there.   Modern eating and diets areally are, damned if you do damned if you dont.

addendum: No one has told me there is a mercuary poisining risk with some fish as well. Damn a lot of food chains are messed up.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 29, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, that is the same article that I found.  Sugar first refined 2500 years ago.  First refined on a large, commercial level in the 1600s on the Brazilian sugar plantations.  Prior to Brazil, sugar was uncommon in the human diet.   Ergo, no kung fu masters from thousands of years ago would have had enough sugar in the diet to have determined its effects in large quantities.



The article doesn't say sugar was uncommon in the diet before the 1600s, it says almost two thousand years prior, sugar (and of course candy) was already a Silk Road mainstay.  Sugar candies were common in China a long time ago.  Mass production in Brazil centuries later doesn't mean it was uncommon until 1600, it just means that's when it was available to practically anyone, as opposed to some nations with more exotic fares and their trade partners.

And what I actually said was "That's because Chinese kung fu masters (and their big egos) knew that fighting a lot while on high sucrose diets led to joint annihilation thousands of years ago and this knowledge has been advanced by kung fu sifus for centuries, along with other TCM theories."

See?  So where did you get "kung fu masters thousands of years ago"?  I said kung fu masters of centuries ago, knew of the dangers of sugars (refined or not) and starches from their own ancient history (because dietary and herbal remedies are much older than kung fu). 

What I am pointing out is that joint inflammation due to certain foods is something well known to kung fu medicine, because it is ancient and traditional but evidence-based medicine.

Jow Ga Kuen contains a huge volume of this medicinal herbology devoted to joint health, specifically because of the Wei gong it contains, which should explain my curiosity.

MMA fighters also have to deal with inflammation issues like this, from their own stance and footwork, and some actually rely on the same traditional recipes.  So, whatever the differences in structure and dynamics, they still have to combat the same realities about anatomy and the dangers of certain diets.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 29, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Drugs like opioids are different.  They aren't based on how much money you can make.  They are often given to those who have little money and are sold by those who have a lot of money.  That has always been the case with drugs that are highly addictive and do harm.  You can't compare opioids to food.  That would be like saying me saying that everyone has access to Caviar because everyone has access to opioids, which isn't true.  Pick any large inner city neighborhood and I guarantee that that it'll be easier to buy opioids in that neighborhood than it is to buy caviar.  I guarantee opioids are also cheaper
> 
> Certain items are seen by the upper income levels as exclusive to them and the price fits.  Poor people probably had access to Cane Sugar with no problem, but can sugar is not the same as Refined Sugar.  Refined Sugar is the unhealthy sugar.   I'm not sure if you have eaten raw sugar cane before, but I grew up on it.  Sugar Cane doesn't taste like refined sugar.  Far from it.  Even honey is sweeter than cane sugar.
> 
> The problem that your article has is that the article doesn't talk about how sugar was used or cooked with



Refined sugar is not the only unhealthy sugar.  All sugars can be damaging when consumed in unhealthy quantities or at the wrong times, such as before or after training. 

If you don't believe that, try eating nothing but watermelon or cotton candy grapes.  It's healthier, but not by much.

But to get back to my point, Jow Ga has an arsenal of herbal, medicinal, and dietary guidelines regarding protecting the body from Yang stancework, which I've seen you do on video.  So I'm just intensely curious, one Jow Ga student to another, how it came to be that you questioned their existence. 

Remember?  Three people said "never heard of a kung fu diet".  Wwwwhat?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 29, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Full agreement, especially when we are talking about people who lived “thousands of years ago”.



It's not like this stuff isn't well known and historically documented.  The eating and medicinal habits of ancient civilizations, I mean.  Pretty easy to just pick up a book and learn 3,000 year old folk remedy poultices and tonics that are still used today, because they work.

Ma-huang?  You can blow your heart up with that stuff, and many have.  How many thousands of years have we known about that root?  It turns out people were writing stuff down even that far back.  I won't touch the stuff specifically because of the advice of kung fu medicine, before I even learned about it's actual pharmacology.

I never claimed there were "kung fu masters" thousands of years ago, that's someone else's claim.  What I did say was the kung fu masters of the last centuries still transmit recipes and guidelines that are thousands of years old, because they improve health and protect and heal the body.

I'm focusing on stancework specifically because of JowGaWolf's videos, because it's on topic.  But there are a million tangents we could take.  Hit medicine?  balms?  liniments?  Sky's the limit.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 29, 2020)

You did say that they knew about the bad effects of a high sugar diet thousands of years ago, not centuries ago.  You did say centuries later in that same sentence.  I’ve posted and bolded and underlined the appropriate portion.



Oily Dragon said:


> Oreos are more addictive than heroin and cocaine, and sugar and alcohol are both anathema to a proper kung fu diet.  In fact, eliminating both is mentioned right here in the Shíwù de néngliàng xué!  *That’s* *because Chinese kung fu masters (and their big egos) knew that fighting a lot while on high sucrose diets led to joint annihilation thousands of years ago and this knowledge has been advanced by kung fu sifus for centuries, along with other TCM theories*.



The article that you posted to stated that throughout the Middle Ages sugar was a rare and expensive spice, and not a mainstay in the diet.  I can accept that it might have been more common in Asia than in Europe during that time, the article does not make the distinction if I recall accurately.  However, “plentiful” during that time would have still been rare by today’s standards.  

I hold to my point:  sugar was rare until historically recently, and kung fu masters of thousands of years ago, would not have had a high sugar diet to recognize its detrimental effects.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 29, 2020)

I just realized you stated the same thing again in this recent post.  Once again I’ve bolded and underlined the relevant portion.  You state that kung fu masters knew this thousands of years ago.



Oily Dragon said:


> The article doesn't say sugar was uncommon in the diet before the 1600s, it says almost two thousand years prior, sugar (and of course candy) was already a Silk Road mainstay.  Sugar candies were common in China a long time ago.  Mass production in Brazil centuries later doesn't mean it was uncommon until 1600, it just means that's when it was available to practically anyone, as opposed to some nations with more exotic fares and their trade partners.
> 
> And what I actually said was "*That's because Chinese kung fu masters (and their big egos) knew that fighting a lot while on high sucrose diets led to joint annihilation thousands of years ago and this knowledge has been advanced by kung fu sifus for centuries, along with other TCM theories."*
> 
> ...


----------



## Buka (Jul 29, 2020)

And stay away from cigars, you kids.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 31, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> The article doesn't say sugar was uncommon in the diet before the 1600s, it says almost two thousand years prior, sugar (and of course candy) was already a Silk Road mainstay. Sugar candies were common in China a long time ago.


Candy back then is not the same as the candy that we have today.  Candy back then had far less sugar than modern sugar, and was mostly made of natural sugars such as honey.  Natural Sugar is more healthier for you than refined sugar.  For example, you can eat honey and use honey to treat wounds.  Even to this day I will use unfiltered honey on certain cuts and wounds to help speed up healing and to keep it from getting infected.  The same can not be done with refined sugar.  Honey  (unfiltered honey) also doesn't come with the same health risks as sugar and it also doesn't give you the energy crash that refined Sugar does.  The reason I mention unfiltered honey because even today's honey is refined to make it sweeter.  There is a huge difference between the two.

Another example is chocolate.  Pure chocolate is sweet, but not like modern chocolate, far from it.  Pure chocolate is also healthier as well and is actually good with managing blood sugar and the heart.  It's a candy.  Candies and Sweets like this would have been normal during the days before refined sugar became affordable.  It's sugar, but it's not refined sugar. There are many plants that naturally have sugar in them, but again this is not the harmful sugar.  Unrefined Cane Sugar is sweet, but it's far less sugar than refined sugar and has none of the negative effects that refined sugar has.

Here is an example of Ancient Egyptian Candy "*some experts give the ancient Egyptians credit for inventing candy. The ancient Egyptians used honey to make candy by combining it with nuts, figs, dates, and spices. They used these candies as part of early religious services.*" source: When Was Candy Invented?

Same source as above "*Other ancient civilizations, including the ancient Romans, Greeks, and Chinese, also enjoyed candies. In addition to honey, these civilizations used barley sugar mixed with sesame seeds, fruits, and other ingredients*."

so when you talk about ancient candied you have to put it into the context of what they considered as candy and not place it as an equal of what we consider candy today.

Refined sugar is the "Bad Sugar."  Sugar in the 1600's would be the period around the industrialization of Sugar (refined sugar).  The first candy cane was said to be made in 1670 which is right around the time of the industrialization of refined sugar.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 31, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Refined sugar is not the only unhealthy sugar. All sugars can be damaging when consumed in unhealthy quantities or at the wrong times, such as before or after training.


You would have to eat enormous amounts of a natural food to get the same negative effects from refined sugar.  Eating an apple is not the same sugar as refined sugar.  This is way dietitians tell you to eat a lot of fruit but they don't say eat a lot of refined sugar.

Our body processes natural sugars differently than it does refined sugar.  Refined sugar is 100% sugar.  It's sugar concentrate.  The natural sugar in foods is not sugar concentrate.



Oily Dragon said:


> If you don't believe that, try eating nothing but watermelon or cotton candy grapes. It's healthier, but not by much.


The fact that your example requires that I ONLY EAT WATERMELON OR COTTON CANDY GRAPES.  Proves my point of just how much you would have to eat in order to create the negative effects of refined sugar.   Because of the high water content of these foods, you'll most likely have diarrhea before you even get to "ONLY EAT WATERMELON"
Here's the nutritional value of watermelon "*Watermelons are mostly water — about 92 percent — but this refreshing fruit is soaked with nutrients. Each juicy bite has significant levels of vitamins A, B6 and C, lots of lycopene, antioxidants and amino acids*."  ,,"*Lycopene has been linked with heart health, bone health and prostate cancer prevention*."Source: Watermelon: Health Benefits, Risks & Nutrition Facts | Live Science

Watermelon has anti-inflammatory properties.

Here are the some of the risks to eating watermelon from the same source as above "*The consumption of more than 30 mg of lycopene daily could potentially cause nausea, diarrhea, indigestion and bloating, according to the* American Cancer Society."  Which support my claim that you'll probably get diarrhea before you can "ONLY EAT WATERMELON"  You can eat half of one and you'll most likely spend the rest of the day on the Toilet.  Thanks to all of the water and fiber.  A average cereal bowl is all that my stomach can take so to me "ONLY EAT WATERMELON" proves nothing to me in terms of sugar.

"*How the body metabolizes the sugar in fruit and milk differs from how it metabolizes the refined sugar added to processed foods. The body breaks down refined sugar rapidly, causing insulin and blood sugar levels to skyrocket*."  Source:Cancer Treatment Centers of America


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 31, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> So I'm just intensely curious, one Jow Ga student to another, how it came to be that you questioned their existence.


The only thing I question is a diet specifically for Stances.

Athletes and Soilders have always had a dietary requirements that's different from the average person.  There's nothing new about that.  But there's no "jump higher diet" or "punch harder diet".


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 31, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I hold to my point: sugar was rare until historically recently, and kung fu masters of thousands of years ago, would not have had a high sugar diet to recognize its detrimental effects.


My research showed that.

Natural Sugar was the norm in the diet during those times
Refined sugar was only for the rich it was not easily accessible to the poor
Candy back then is not the same as the candy that we eat.  Modern candy didn't come about until after the industrialization of sugar refinement in the mid 1600's
It was so rare in Europe in the middle ages that a 6 pound bag of refined sugar represented all of the Sugar in Europe.
Even after the refinement of Sugar Many Chinese still used natural sugar like honey and sugar cane. My guess is that it wasn't by choice, they just couldn't afford the refined sugar.
I didn't bother to try to research Kung Fu and Sugar because many kung fu practioners wouldn't be able to afford it.  So from that perspective they wouldn't be eating it, not because they knew it was bad for them, but because they couldn't afford it.   We can't eat what we don't have access to.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Aug 1, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> You did say that they knew about the bad effects of a high sugar diet thousands of years ago, not centuries ago.  You did say centuries later in that same sentence.  I’ve posted and bolded and underlined the appropriate portion.



Yes, "they" did.



Flying Crane said:


> The article that you posted to stated that throughout the Middle Ages sugar was a rare and expensive spice, and not a mainstay in the diet.



In the European sense, maybe.  Not worldwide.  They conquered nations to steal other nations' sugar.  Sad, but true.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Aug 1, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I just realized you stated the same thing again in this recent post.  Once again I’ve bolded and underlined the relevant portion.  You state that kung fu masters knew this thousands of years ago.



No, you are just misreading what I typed, a second time.

If you need me to hold your hand, just ask, but I clearly said that hundreds of years ago, kung fu masters knew of thousand year old dietary concerns, especially when it comes to stancework in kung fu.

A lot of this material is part and parcel of Chinese kung fu medicine, at a basic level no less.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Aug 1, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> You would have to eat enormous amounts of a natural food to get the same negative effects from refined sugar.



According to whom?  Blood sugar is blood sugar, Jow Ga.

I can't wait until we get past the proper nutrition for Jow Ga Kuen stancework.  

I have Jow Lung's entire story and even people like Ron Wheeler behind me.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Aug 1, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The only thing I question is a diet specifically for Stances.
> 
> Athletes and Soilders have always had a dietary requirements that's different from the average person.  There's nothing new about that.  But there's no "jump higher diet" or "punch harder diet".



There is a specific diet, in southern China, for southern Chinese kung fu training and most especially stancework.  It involves avoiding a lot of sugars and other inflammatory things.

Here I am talking about stance health and you're all jump and punch!


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 1, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> No, you are just misreading what I typed, a second time.
> 
> If you need me to hold your hand, just ask, but I clearly said that hundreds of years ago, kung fu masters knew of thousand year old dietary concerns, especially when it comes to stancework in kung fu.
> 
> A lot of this material is part and parcel of Chinese kung fu medicine, at a basic level no less.


Ok, I can accept that, now that you have taken the opportunity to clarify your message.  I can agree that your statement was unclear as to your message.  Now that I understand your intended message, I will say that I am doubtful.  Once again, I do not buy the notion that there was so much sugar, refined or otherwise, in anybody’s diet thousands of years ago, to be able to specifically evaluate its negative effects.  Understanding that you are saying that the kung fu masters of centuries ago were looking at records from thousands of years ago.

But if you can point to some academic articles in archaeology or nutritional history, or authenticated documents from Chinese history for example, I would be interested in taking a look.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 1, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> There is a specific diet, in southern China, for southern Chinese kung fu training and most especially stancework.  It involves avoiding a lot of sugars and other inflammatory things.
> 
> Here I am talking about stance health and you're all jump and punch!


There may be people who hold the belief that the specific diet of the people who developed a physical skillset is the proper diet for anyone who wishes to practice that skillset.  I find that position to be unsupportable.

There are many diets from every culture around the globe that are high quality diets and are appropriate for physical and athletic endeavors of any kind.  These diets typically include lots of vegetables, fruits, limited meat especially red meat, limited carbs and sweets/refined sugars.  And we can acknowledge that there are lots of low quality food items including highly processed foods, candy, etc., things that ought to be avoided in the diet.  None of that is a mystery.  

I don’t need to eat a specific Chinese or Cantonese diet to maximize my kung fu training.


----------



## Buka (Aug 1, 2020)

Last night's training diet - 

 
Northern Italian Peasant Shrimp and pasta for punching...

 
And Eggplant Parm....just for kicks.


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## Steve (Aug 1, 2020)

Buka said:


> Last night's training diet -
> 
> View attachment 23018
> Northern Italian Peasant Shrimp and pasta for punching...
> ...


Yum.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 1, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> According to whom? Blood sugar is blood sugar, Jow Ga.


Do the math.  
Every 100 grams (half a cup.  With a cup being single serving size) of watermelon contains approximately 7 grams of sugar. or 1.68 teaspoons of sugar
If I eat same weight 100 grams of refined sugar then I would be consuming  24 teaspoons of sugar

In order for me to get the same amount of sugar as 100 grams of refined sugar, I would have to eat 1290 grams of watermelon.  Which is significantly larger than 100 grams of sugar. Lets say I double my helping of water melon and eat 200 grams.  Which means I'm eating 3.36 teaspoons of natural sugar.  Now let me double the refined sugar to 200 grams which means that I would then be consuming 48 teaspoons of refined sugar.

Lets say I'm just freaking greedy and eat 4 cups of watermelon.  Which puts me at 800 grams of natural sugar (13.44 teaspoons of natural sugar).  Now lets look at 800 grams of refined sugar which is the same as consuming (192 teaspoons of refine sugar)


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 1, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> I can't wait until we get past the proper nutrition for Jow Ga Kuen stancework.
> 
> I have Jow Lung's entire story and even people like Ron Wheeler behind me.


I just did the watermelon math. So I guess I have science behind me in terms of watermelon.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 1, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> There is a specific diet, in southern China, for southern Chinese kung fu training and most especially stancework. It involves avoiding a lot of sugars and other inflammatory things.


The thing that we are trying to get you to understand is that people in the past were getting far less sugar than they are now and it wasn't by choice.  It was because of scarcity and the fact that Sugar was expensive.  Refined sugar doesn't have the same effects on the body as natural sugar.  Natural sugar absorbs into the body and  blood more slowly.  Refined sugar is like concentrated sugar so you are getting more sugar per teaspoon than you would with natural sugar.  Refined sugar also goes directly into the blood stream and causes trouble.  These are things that you cannot possible understand unless you had to be ability to measure blood sugar.  Testing of blood sugar didn't occur until mid 1800's and it was done by doctors.  The first commercialized blood sugar test was in 1908.  So doctors weren't able to test blood sugar levels before 1900.  Blood glucose testing didn't come until 1970


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 1, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> But if you can point to some academic articles in archaeology or nutritional history, or authenticated documents from Chinese history for example, I would be interested in taking a look.


 We shall see what comes of this request.  I research the dietary data of what was eaten around that time and when it came to refined sugar,  It was always the same for every culture around the globe.  Refined sugar was expensive and only the wealthy could afford it and it wasn't until refined sugar was industrialized that it became more affordable.  I have yet to see anything other than this.  From historians, to dieticians , to nutritionists,  and to doctors. 

Straight from UCLA.*  "*When sugar was first used in ancient Greece and Rome it was regarded mainly as a medicine, but it was used in food by the very rich. Venice in the 10th century started building its fortunes by importing sugar along with spices and silks from the Orient. The Arabs introduced crystallized sugar as qandi (which gives us our word candy) and various products of sugar such as syrups and caramel. Apothecaries made pleasing medicines with imaginative use of these products. By the 16th century, there was an increasing availability of sugar from ports in the New World as well as Asia, and it became familiar in the diet, especially as a sweetener of the new spices, coffee and chocolate, and subsequently tea." Source:  Medicinal Spices Exhibit - UCLA Biomedical Library: History & Special Collections

Diabetes seems to have been known of for thousands of years, in which it was referred to the Greeks as "honey urine" because the ants were attracted to it. They understood that "honey urine" was a bad sign that could lead to death but they didn't know what was the cause of it.  Now keep in mind all of this is just sugar and not "The effects of sugar on the joints"  And even with "honey urine"

The closest you are going to get with an association of stance training and Joint vs Sugar is that Sugar was also used as a medicine thousands of years ago.  Then one day a doctor tried to treat arthritis with a refined sugar drink and learned by observing the patient that the Sugar didn't improve the Arthritis but made it worse.  But even in this scenario it is still not the same as understanding dietary sugar as Oily Dragon has stated.  At best the doctor would guess that sugar makes arthritis joint pain worse only after seeing an patient suffer more after drinking a drink of refined sugar.  It would be impossible to get avoid sugar because it's found in all plants. beets, onions, green peas, squash, carrots, mushrooms, etc.  all have sugar.  Would the doctor have prohibited this as well?  But if you make a drink out of refined sugar and tried to use it as medicine then that's the only possible route.  This is the only way that seem realistic,  and not that everyone was eating too much sugar. 

The founder of Jow Ga Kung Fu was born in 1891.  Hung Ga Kung Fu was created some where in the 1600 - 1700.  The industrialization of refined sugar started in the 1600's which would have made refined sugar more available.  So at the most we are looking at 200 years (1600 to 1800 when blood glucose was discovered) and not thousands of years.  While Chinese medicine got some things right,  They got a lot of things wrong.  Starting with Arsenic and Mercury to prolong life.  Which doctors in the middle ages knew that arsenic was deadly, so sugar was going to be best guess easily.

Thousands of years ago doctors who treated the rich probably had a lot of patients who had diseased related to them eating to much of a lot of stuff.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 1, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> There are many diets from every culture around the globe that are high quality diets and are appropriate for physical and athletic endeavors of any kind.


This is actually recorded in history.  It wasn't based on joint pain.  It was based on creating the best athlete and best soldier.  They would know of foods that increase energy as well as foods that would make a person sluggish.  I'll use myself as an example, before I got into nutrition.

When I was 14 I already knew about the sugar crash and experienced it first hand.  It was no secret.  Parents knew of it and spoke of it.   When I was in high school running cross country I thought I could beat the sugar crash that some with eating refined sugars.  One day we were traveling to a race and on the way to the race I ate a lot of candy, thinking that I would be able to beat the sugar crash.  By the time we arrived to the race I was well into my sugar crash, I felt sluggish and had poor performance.  That's what I experienced first hand. Since then, I never ate candy on the day of a race or game (played multiple sports)  I also never at candy before working out because of what I experienced.   Stuff like that isn't going to require any sort of wisdom to know what messed you up. 2 or 3 times at the most before someone figures that the sugar was cause.  Being that kung fu is active and kung fu training is active, they would have easily discovered this.  No secret there.

Now the same highschool.  My cross country coach used to fill us up on carbohydrates the night before, light lunch, and if anyone had the munches a few hours before the race we were told to eat an orange, which also has sugar but doesn't cause a sugar crash.

*Running Hack: Why You Should Eat an Orange Before Running*
Source: Running Hack: Why You Should Eat an Orange Before Running


----------



## Oily Dragon (Aug 9, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> There may be people who hold the belief that the specific diet of the people who developed a physical skillset is the proper diet for anyone who wishes to practice that skillset.  I find that position to be unsupportable.
> 
> There are many diets from every culture around the globe that are high quality diets and are appropriate for physical and athletic endeavors of any kind.  These diets typically include lots of vegetables, fruits, limited meat especially red meat, limited carbs and sweets/refined sugars.  And we can acknowledge that there are lots of low quality food items including highly processed foods, candy, etc., things that ought to be avoided in the diet.  None of that is a mystery.
> 
> I don’t need to eat a specific Chinese or Cantonese diet to maximize my kung fu training.



Or as the Chinese call it, "food".  And yes, you do.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say a low sugar, low carb Paleolithic diet rich in fish oils and dark green plants, low in inflammatory chemicals and especially sweets, are important for the most strenuous physical endeavor known to man (surviving the Paleolithic age, especially in central Asia), is superior to most diets, especially vegetarian diets.

The Shaolin monks themselves weren't even strict vegetarians, that's a huge myth.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Aug 9, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Do the math.
> Every 100 grams (half a cup.  With a cup being single serving size) of watermelon contains approximately 7 grams of sugar. or 1.68 teaspoons of sugar
> If I eat same weight 100 grams of refined sugar then I would be consuming  24 teaspoons of sugar
> 
> ...



A single watermelon is about 10 kilograms.

Who here hasn't eaten and entire watermelon all by themselves?  

Maybe I'm preaching kung fu science to the wrong crowd.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Aug 9, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> While Chinese medicine got some things right,  They got a lot of things wrong.  Starting with Arsenic and Mercury to prolong life.  Which doctors in the middle ages knew that arsenic was deadly, so sugar was going to be best guess easily.



Doctors in the middle ages didn't invent the miracle of kung fu.  It's entirely empirical, if somewhat metaphorical and symbolic rather than logical.  In fact why even call it "Chinese".  It's universal.  Viral.

The Jow Ga tradition contains all good stuff when it comes to diet and medicine.  No mercury or arsenic.

There are even rules about which Jow to drink and not to drink.  Hopefully you get the correct instruction..  I have nothing but the utmost respect for the Jow Ga diet traditions, and offer them freely to you to my last note.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 9, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Or as the Chinese call it, "food".  And yes, you do.
> .



Sigh.  No, I don’t.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people ask you what stance that they should use in fighting, if you start to drag them around in circle. They will never ask you that question again.
> 
> Old saying said, "You may not find any opportunity to attack. As long as you keep moving, soon or later, you will find that opportunity". The key point is "keep moving". When you are moving, stance has no meaning to you.
> 
> ...


To me, stances are about learning to control structure. If they're learned properly, the principles work in movement to maintain/regain control.


----------



## Buka (Aug 9, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> There may be people who hold the belief that the specific diet of the people who developed a physical skillset is the proper diet for anyone who wishes to practice that skillset.  I find that position to be unsupportable.
> 
> There are many diets from every culture around the globe that are high quality diets and are appropriate for physical and athletic endeavors of any kind.  These diets typically include lots of vegetables, fruits, limited meat especially red meat, limited carbs and sweets/refined sugars.  And we can acknowledge that there are lots of low quality food items including highly processed foods, candy, etc., things that ought to be avoided in the diet.  None of that is a mystery.
> 
> I don’t need to eat a specific Chinese or Cantonese diet to maximize my kung fu training.





JowGaWolf said:


> My research showed that.
> 
> Natural Sugar was the norm in the diet during those times
> Refined sugar was only for the rich it was not easily accessible to the poor
> ...





Oily Dragon said:


> Yes, "they" did.
> 
> 
> 
> In the European sense, maybe.  Not worldwide.  They conquered nations to steal other nations' sugar.  Sad, but true.





Flying Crane said:


> There may be people who hold the belief that the specific diet of the people who developed a physical skillset is the proper diet for anyone who wishes to practice that skillset.  I find that position to be unsupportable.
> 
> There are many diets from every culture around the globe that are high quality diets and are appropriate for physical and athletic endeavors of any kind.  These diets typically include lots of vegetables, fruits, limited meat especially red meat, limited carbs and sweets/refined sugars.  And we can acknowledge that there are lots of low quality food items including highly processed foods, candy, etc., things that ought to be avoided in the diet.  None of that is a mystery.
> 
> I don’t need to eat a specific Chinese or Cantonese diet to maximize my kung fu training.



You know what I read, guys?

I read that back in ancient China, Kung Fu Masters ate sugar with either hand.

They were ambidextrose.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 9, 2020)

Buka said:


> View attachment 23014
> And stay away from cigars, you kids.


I'd post a pic of me with my cigar(illo), but I just finished it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 9, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Blood sugar is blood sugar, Jow Ga.


While it's true that a given amount of sugar will have a nearly identical effect if given by itself, that ignores the other nutrients in any given food.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 9, 2020)

Something is definitely good for your health.

*Here are seven possible benefits of the goji berry with the scientific evidence supporting them:*

Protects the eyes. ...
Provides *immune system support*. ...
Protects against *cancer*. ...
Promotes healthy *skin*. ...
Stabilizes *blood sugar*. ...
Improves depression, anxiety, and sleep. ...
Prevents *liver* damage.


----------



## _Simon_ (Aug 10, 2020)

Buka said:


> You know what I read, guys?
> 
> I read that back in ancient China, Kung Fu Masters ate sugar with either hand.
> 
> They were ambidextrose.


Wow.... WOW

That is pure gold XD


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 10, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say a low sugar, low carb Paleolithic diet rich in fish oils and dark green plants, low in inflammatory chemicals and especially sweets


See this is where my understanding of history and that Paleolithic diet doesn't match.  So let's get a reality. Check.
This is supposed to be a Paleolithic Man who some how knows about proper diet and inflammatory chemicals.  I'm just saying. That dude in the picture probably didn't care all about this diet stuff that you just mention.  My guess is that he ate whatever he could when he could find it.  Probably not picky.  I mean homeless people who live out the street aren't picky.  His physical build is simply from the fact that he had to do everything by hand. Lift, push, pull, build, what you see is what he did it with.  Talk about getting steps in.  This dude probably walked everywhere.  You know what he probably didn't care about?  Refined sugar (which wasn't invented) but If I go back in time and hand him a candy bar or a doughnut.  I bet you'll he'll eat it.  So when people say how great his diet was.  My response is.  Go out in the middle of the Jungle or on the African plains, with some shorts, no food, no water, and  a stick.  And you'll get to experience a true Paleolithic diet.   You know what else you'll experience. Real hunger.  The type of hunger that will make you pick up a grub or worm off the ground and eat it raw, because you don't know when you'll find your next meal.  The last thing you are going to think about is how sugar affects your body.





Now lets take a look at how long people lived back then.
"The Stone Age began about 2.5 million years ago, when inventive proto-humans first began to make stone tools. The bulk of it, and by far the longest period (so far) in human history, is known as the Paleolithic Period or Old Stone Age. *People who experienced it were lucky to live beyond their twenties, and they ate whatever they could get their hands on,* which meant – depending on who and where you were – anything from grubs to nettles to armadillos."  source: Prehistoric Dining: The Real Paleo Diet

"It all sounds thinning and healthy—the sort of meal plan a lot of us make unlikely resolutions about after the second glass of champagne on New Year’s Eve. *The problem, though, is that the modern paleo diet is not what Paleolithic people—the real-life originals of Fred and Wilma—actually ate*."  *Source*: Prehistoric Dining: The Real Paleo Diet

Wow.  So national Geographic says that the modern paleo diet is not what Paleolithic people actually ate.  I'm not surprise.  Not sure if you have ever been camping in the woods, but do you know how difficult it is to find Nuts that are edible?  I went camping in the Blue Ridge mountain for 4 days.  Did not come across one tree with nuts or berries. My guess is those things don't grow on trees year round so depending on what the season is, you don't get those things. Lots of leaves though provided that you don't eat one that is toxic.

*So what did they eat?  Here's some of what they ate. *
"Ancient tomatoes were the size of berries; potatoes were no bigger than peanuts. Corn was a wild grass, its tooth-cracking kernels borne in clusters as small as pencil erasers. Cucumbers were spiny as sea urchins; lettuce was bitter and prickly. Peas were so starchy and unpalatable that, before eating, they had to be roasted like chestnuts and peeled. The sole available cabbage—the great-great-granddaddy of today’s kale, kohlrabi, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, and cauliflower—was sea kale, a tough and tongue-curling leafy weed that grew along the temperate sea coasts. Carrots were scrawny. Beans were naturally laced with cyanide."
*Source*:  https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/food/the-plate/2014/04/22/prehistoric-dining-the-real-paleo-diet/#close

So when people talk Paleolithic diet.  I'm like hell naw I pass. Thanks, but no thanks.  Probably why they rarely lived beyond their 20's that plus, lack of medicine to fight off infections, bad drinking water, disease, and animals that would pick them off during the night as they sleep, and eating toxic food.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 10, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> The Jow Ga tradition contains all good stuff when it comes to diet and medicine.


We can't even get to this point because your historical references about food is off.  Now as far as what is considered Jow Ga tradition in terms of food.  I have no say in that.  But that other stuff, just isn't matching timeline.  If you wanted to talk about Jow Ga diet then you probably should have start off with that.  But when the food history comes into play people can actually research that vs something that was handed down.  And I'm not trying to be mean or anything. But everything I've posted so far has been related to food history and lifestyle history based on the history before industrialize sugar.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 10, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Who here hasn't eaten and entire watermelon all by themselves?


I have never eaten an entire watermelon by myself.  The first question that comes to my mind is "Why??"  Why would I eat 22 pounds of anything?  

I don't know about anyone else here.  But that's not even realistic for me.  It's probably not realistic for anyone to eat  unless their stomach can handle all of that fiber and water.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 11, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> (surviving the Paleolithic age, especially in central Asia


"The second error in premise is perhaps even more significant. The caveman diet is a great diet if you want to live to be 30 or 35 years old. That was the adult life expectancy until very, very recently (indeed, it wasn’t until well after the advent of agriculture that life expectancies began to rise—in agricultural communities!). We know this from skeletal evidence. Individuals older than 40 at death are very rare in the Palaeolithic record."
Source:
"The Truth About the Caveman Diet"


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 11, 2020)

Buka said:


> I read that back in ancient China, Kung Fu Masters ate sugar with either hand.
> 
> They were ambidextrose.


One good turns deserves another. Probably not.  "It's not that there are fewer people born left-handed in China or necessarily that there are negative attitudes about lefties there. It's just that being left-handed is especially impractical."  "But China is hardly alone in this. Elsewhere in the world there are still very strong cultural stigmas against left-handedness. In many Muslim parts of the world, in parts of Africa as well as in India, the left hand is considered the dirty hand and it's considered offensive to offer that hand to anyone, even to help. The discrimination against lefties goes back thousands of years in many cultures, including those of the West."
Source:  Why Are There So Few Lefties in China?

Probably why most forms are heavy right hand to learn with, then practice left hand if you feel like it lol.  Sometime in my life. I was told the left hand was the one you wiped your butt with and the right hand was the one you kept clean.  Oh when I say wipe your butt with I mean without tissue lol.  my personal thoughts is that they ate sugar using these  They have been around since 1952 and Turns out Koolaid sticks have been around since 1930.  Google is scary..lol


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 11, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Something is definitely good for your health.
> 
> *Here are seven possible benefits of the goji berry with the scientific evidence supporting them:*
> 
> ...


I was going to buy a goji plant once.  Too lazy at the moment to see if it's a tree or bush.  I just know I they were sold with black berry bush I bought 2 years ago lol.  Never had one, so I don't know how it tastes.


----------



## Steve (Aug 11, 2020)

This video perfectly tracks this conversation.  For what it's worth, we're currently at about 2:40 into the video.


----------



## Steve (Aug 11, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I have never eaten an entire watermelon by myself.  The first question that comes to my mind is "Why??"  Why would I eat 22 pounds of anything?
> 
> I don't know about anyone else here.  But that's not even realistic for me.  It's probably not realistic for anyone to eat  unless their stomach can handle all of that fiber and water.


Talk about great memories.  I don't know if I ever ate an entire watermelon, but I'm sure I tried.  I'd grind through a quarter of one, no problem.  Fresh watermelon and cantaloupe out of my grandma's garden.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 11, 2020)

Steve said:


> This video perfectly tracks this conversation.  For what it's worth, we're currently at about 2:40 into the video.


YESS THAT.  Realities are now synced lol


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 11, 2020)

Steve said:


> Talk about great memories.  I don't know if I ever ate an entire watermelon, but I'm sure I tried.  I'd grind through a quarter of one, no problem.  Fresh watermelon and cantaloupe out of my grandma's garden.


ha ha ha.. I think you should go for it.  Eat a whole one lol.


----------



## Steve (Aug 11, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha.. I think you should go for it.  Eat a whole one lol.


I think even after the rind is taken out, you're looking at 15 lbs of "meat" inside.  I always put a little salt on them, and then spit the seeds at my brother.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Aug 20, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> See this is where my understanding of history and that Paleolithic diet doesn't match.  So let's get a reality. Check.
> This is supposed to be a Paleolithic Man who some how knows about proper diet and inflammatory chemicals.  I'm just saying. That dude in the picture probably didn't care all about this diet stuff that you just mention.  My guess is that he ate whatever he could when he could find it.  Probably not picky.  I mean homeless people who live out the street aren't picky.  His physical build is simply from the fact that he had to do everything by hand. Lift, push, pull, build, what you see is what he did it with.  Talk about getting steps in.  This dude probably walked everywhere.  You know what he probably didn't care about?  Refined sugar (which wasn't invented) but If I go back in time and hand him a candy bar or a doughnut.  I bet you'll he'll eat it.  So when people say how great his diet was.  My response is.  Go out in the middle of the Jungle or on the African plains, with some shorts, no food, no water, and  a stick.  And you'll get to experience a true Paleolithic diet.   You know what else you'll experience. Real hunger.  The type of hunger that will make you pick up a grub or worm off the ground and eat it raw, because you don't know when you'll find your next meal.  The last thing you are going to think about is how sugar affects your body.
> 
> 
> ...



So what you're saying is your better?

Prove it.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Aug 20, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> We can't even get to this point because your historical references about food is off



No. But you still  wanna test?

OK.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> So what you're saying is your better?
> 
> Prove it.


I'm not saying that mine is better. What I'm saying is that people in general make assumptions about the thoughts of people in the past and why they actually did the things that they did.  We often project modern reasoning on people of the past. In short, you are using your modern knowledge to create a perspective and claiming that it's the same perspective of someone who lived hundreds of years or thousands of years ago.  You aren't factoring in the perspective of what existed then, in the environment that it existed in.

For example, If you were living in the paleolithic days, the most that you will care about your diet is that you had food to eat.  The biggest concern about the food that you would eat isn't going to be about how the food makes you fat.  The biggest concern about the food you is would be. "Is this food going to make me sick or kill me."  In terms of the size of the portions of food and diet.  We assume that the food was the same size.  The food that we have has undergone a lot of manual genetic manipulation for example,  only planting the seeds from crops that yield the biggest fruit.  We also use hydroponic farms which also yields larger fruit.  I know a lot about this because I do a lot of gardening and my wife enjoys hydroponics.   I prefer growing plants in the soil while my wife prefers Hydroponics.  So from the seed to the mature plant I know what effort it takes.  As a kid I used to eat wild black berries and they don't yield the same amount of berries every year.  When it yields fruit there is only a short amount of time to actually eat it before wildlife gets to it.  I also tried to hunt small game as a child with things like hand made weapons and none of that stuff is easy

I am saying that you are projecting a lot of "diet wisdom" that you know from today's knowledge on a past that didn't have the same knowledge and understanding that you have now.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> No. But you still  wanna test?
> 
> OK.


I've already posted lots of historical information.  No need to test.  If you got disagreements with the references that I posted then you need to take it up with the sources who wrote it.

I could be wrong, but you have yet to post any source data for any of what you claim.

The only sources that I remember you state are Ancient Kung fu masters, you, and Ron, and paleolithic diet.

all with no links where people can read and research more if they so choose.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 20, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've already posted lots of historical information.  No need to test.  If you got disagreements with the references that I posted then you need to take it up with the sources who wrote it.
> 
> I could be wrong, but you have yet to post any source data for any of what you claim.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 20, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> So what you're saying is your better?
> 
> Prove it.


His understanding of nutrition and perspective on the pre-historic reality certainly is better.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Aug 24, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not saying that mine is better. What I'm saying is that people in general make assumptions about the thoughts of people in the past and why they actually did the things that they did.  We often project modern reasoning on people of the past. In short, you are using your modern knowledge to create a perspective and claiming that it's the same perspective of someone who lived hundreds of years or thousands of years ago.  You aren't factoring in the perspective of what existed then, in the environment that it existed in.
> 
> For example, If you were living in the paleolithic days, the most that you will care about your diet is that you had food to eat.  The biggest concern about the food that you would eat isn't going to be about how the food makes you fat.  The biggest concern about the food you is would be. "Is this food going to make me sick or kill me."  In terms of the size of the portions of food and diet.  We assume that the food was the same size.  The food that we have has undergone a lot of manual genetic manipulation for example,  only planting the seeds from crops that yield the biggest fruit.  We also use hydroponic farms which also yields larger fruit.  I know a lot about this because I do a lot of gardening and my wife enjoys hydroponics.   I prefer growing plants in the soil while my wife prefers Hydroponics.  So from the seed to the mature plant I know what effort it takes.  As a kid I used to eat wild black berries and they don't yield the same amount of berries every year.  When it yields fruit there is only a short amount of time to actually eat it before wildlife gets to it.  I also tried to hunt small game as a child with things like hand made weapons and none of that stuff is easy
> 
> I am saying that you are projecting a lot of "diet wisdom" that you know from today's knowledge on a past that didn't have the same knowledge and understanding that you have now.



The ancients knew all about the healing powers of garlic.

I'm not projecting , I'm pointing out fundamental facts about nutrition and kung fu stances that have been known to kung fu masters a lot longer than science has been around.

We're talking about inflammation here, and a little something referred to as prophylaxis in medical circles.  

I'm avoiding the kung fu terms for now, just so that we can have a clearer understanding, but injuries from kung fu training combining good stances with poor nutritional practices is several centuries old.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Aug 24, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've already posted lots of historical information.  No need to test.  If you got disagreements with the references that I posted then you need to take it up with the sources who wrote it.
> 
> I could be wrong, but you have yet to post any source data for any of what you claim.
> 
> ...



It's pretty easy to just Google up the medicinal qualities of anti-inflammatory roots and herbs.

Jow Ga Kuen medicine is loaded with this stuff and a lot of it is specifically targeted at the type of training you've posted.  This isn't really a debate at all so why bother, I am trying to impart some friendly advice.  Oster sauce over soy sauce, that sort of thing.

Don't even get me started on Kung Pa Chicken the American way, vs. the original.  One will ruin your kung fu, the other will make it sparkle.  Guess which?

Kung Pao Chicken | Debunking Myths of China


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## _Simon_ (Aug 24, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Don't even get me started on Kung Pa Chicken the American way, vs. the original.  One will ruin your kung fu, the other will make it sparkle.  Guess which?
> 
> Kung Pao Chicken | Debunking Myths of China



Okay let me see if I've got this straight...

Are you saying that eating Kung Pao Chicken... made a certain way (and I don't mean by adding poison), will literally ruin your Kung Fu, and render you unable to practice Kung Fu...?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 24, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'm pointing out fundamental facts about nutrition and kung fu stances that have been known to kung fu masters a lot longer than science has been around.


Science is older than Kung Fu. 

Earliest evidence of science dates back to Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia in around 3500 to 3000 BCE. Source: Science - Wikipedia

Kung Fu didn't come around until First Chinese Kung Fu was CE 477 – The first abbot of Shaolin Monastery was Buddhabadra, an Indian Dhyana master who came to China in AD 464 

Pyramids are older than Kung Fu and if that isn't science then I don't know what is.  Archimedes is older than Kung Fu.  Doctors, Sages, Medicine Men, Shamens, and the like are older than Kung Fu and were around before Kung Fu masters. even through about a horse stance.

So when your say Fundamental Facts.  Your time line doesn't match what you claim.

"I'm less confident in your understanding of "prophylaxis in medical circles." when your timelines are so inaccurate.   Anything that you say in that are is probably due to modern influence on what you heard or read in Ron's book, and not from a historical source.  You even stated yourself that your fountain of knowledge that was backing your claims up was.  "You and Ron Wheeler."  

You have yet to mention any Kung Fu medical practitioners.  



Oily Dragon said:


> but injuries from kung fu training combining good stances with poor nutritional practices is several centuries old.


 This doesn't mean much to me because Diet in general determines physical health.  Eat too much then you'll have health problems, that fat people get.  Eat to little and you'll have health problems that starving people eat.  Don't get the right amount of nutrients and you'll have deficiencies.  That's nothing new, and it's so common that animals understand of many types re able to manage nutrient deficiencies.

When my dog gets sick it eats grass. 

You don't have to be a kung fu master to understand how a good diet is better than a bad one.  Try what some people on this planet go through and not eat for 2 and 3 days. You'll pick up that lesson really quick.  Look at malnourished animals and you'll know right way they need food.  Over feed gold fish and the will die.  What you contribute to Kung Fu as being some sort of Halmark of "Diet Knowledge"  is out of context of what people were experiencing during the times that you were claiming.  The majority of what people know in terms of good diet has very little to do with Kung Fu or Kung Fu stances.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 24, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'm avoiding the kung fu terms for now, just so that we can have a clearer understanding, but injuries from kung fu training combining good stances with poor nutritional practices is several centuries old.



This one really bothers me because of what it implies.
Injuries from kung fu training - injuries from kung fu training happen regardless of your nutritional diet.  If you train Kung Fu for fighting then there are going to be injuries from a wide range of things that don't deal with the diet.

This would be like me saying. "you'll have injuries in boxing due to your bad diet."  Alot of injuries in boxing have more to do with pushing beyond one's limits, accidents, and intentional strikes to the face, head, and elbows."  One could be healthy and still get multiple injuries.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 24, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Okay let me see if I've got this straight...
> 
> Are you saying that eating Kung Pao Chicken... made a certain way (and I don't mean by adding poison), will literally ruin your Kung Fu, and render you unable to practice Kung Fu...?


My guess is that Jobo created a new account just so he could says some stuff like this lol.


----------



## Steve (Aug 24, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Science is older than Kung Fu.
> 
> Earliest evidence of science dates back to Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia in around 3500 to 3000 BCE. Source: Science - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


Fun fact, the ancient Egyptians are often credited with inventing beer, too.  They were so cool.


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## Oily Dragon (Aug 27, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Okay let me see if I've got this straight...
> 
> Are you saying that eating Kung Pao Chicken... made a certain way (and I don't mean by adding poison), will literally ruin your Kung Fu, and render you unable to practice Kung Fu...?



Are you even aware there is more than one way to cook Kung Pao Chicken?

If so, then sort of.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Aug 27, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Science is older than Kung Fu.



not really.

“Every suffering is a buddha-seed, because suffering impels mortals to seek wisdom. But you can only say that suffering gives rise to buddhahood. You can’t say that suffering is buddhahood. Your body and mind are the field. Suffering is the seed, wisdom the sprout, and buddhahood the grain.” 
― Bodhidharma



JowGaWolf said:


> The majority of what people know in terms of good diet has very little to do with Kung Fu or Kung Fu stances.



Your Jow Ga Kuen stancework, very specifically, can be helped or harmed by certain nutritional additives.  Your Jow Ga Ancestors educated themselves in this subject.

Avoid sugars, alcohols, fruit, and anything in the direction of glutamate.

Instead, eat chicken, pork, red meat, vegetables, beans, and especially liquids.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 30, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> not really.
> 
> “Every suffering is a buddha-seed, because suffering impels mortals to seek wisdom. But you can only say that suffering gives rise to buddhahood. You can’t say that suffering is buddhahood. Your body and mind are the field. Suffering is the seed, wisdom the sprout, and buddhahood the grain.”
> ― Bodhidharma



*Buddism was born*:
Buddhism, founded in the late 6th century B.C.E. by Siddhartha Gautama (the "Buddha"), is an important religion in most of the countries of Asia. Buddhism has assumed many different forms, but in each case there has been an attempt to draw from the life experiences of the Buddha, his teachings, and the "spirit" or "essence" of histeachings (called dhamma or dharma) as models for the religious life. However, not until the writing of the Buddha Charita (life of the Buddha) by Ashvaghosa in the 1st or 2nd century C.E. do we have acomprehensive account of his life. The Buddha was born (ca. 563 B.C.E.)  (source:The Origins of Buddhism)

*Science was born: *
Earliest evidence of science dates back to Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia in around 3500 to 3000 BCE.

Science is older than Buddism, Older Christianity, Older than Kung Fu. 

The Djoser Step Pyramid in Saqqara, Egypt was constructed by Imhotep (Djoser's royal architect) _c._2630 BC.  
Architecture is the art and science of designing buildings and structures.  The process of making brick is a science.  


*Science is older than Buddism.  Science is older than Kung Fu*.


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## Steve (Aug 30, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> *Buddism was born*:
> Buddhism, founded in the late 6th century B.C.E. by Siddhartha Gautama (the "Buddha"), is an important religion in most of the countries of Asia. Buddhism has assumed many different forms, but in each case there has been an attempt to draw from the life experiences of the Buddha, his teachings, and the "spirit" or "essence" of histeachings (called dhamma or dharma) as models for the religious life. However, not until the writing of the Buddha Charita (life of the Buddha) by Ashvaghosa in the 1st or 2nd century C.E. do we have acomprehensive account of his life. The Buddha was born (ca. 563 B.C.E.)  (source:The Origins of Buddhism)
> 
> *Science was born: *
> ...


One could say that the invention of the wheel is the earliest iteration of mechanical engineering.  

I think it's really interesting to consider the advanced science that the Roman Empire brought to many part of Europe that were essentially forgotten by the locals once the empire fell.  I mean, the Romans spent about 500 years in England, building roads, buildings, Hadrian's wall, the Roman baths in Bath.  Pretty advanced stuff.  Took the Brits several centuries to relearn much of it.

But even before that, the Sumerians and Egyptians were doing some pretty incredible things.  I read somewhere that the Sumerians actually invented the wheel, not to use with carts, but initially to use as a potter's wheel to make more and better pottery.  Not sure if that's true or not, but I think the wheel is placed somewhere around 4,000BCE right alongside things like writing.


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## dvcochran (Aug 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> One could say that the invention of the wheel is the earliest iteration of mechanical engineering.
> 
> I think it's really interesting to consider the advanced science that the Roman Empire brought to many part of Europe that were essentially forgotten by the locals once the empire fell.  I mean, the Romans spent about 500 years in England, building roads, buildings, Hadrian's wall, the Roman baths in Bath.  Pretty advanced stuff.  Took the Brits several centuries to relearn much of it.
> 
> But even before that, the Sumerians and Egyptians were doing some pretty incredible things.  I read somewhere that the Sumerians actually invented the wheel, not to use with carts, but initially to use as a potter's wheel to make more and better pottery.  Not sure if that's true or not, but I think the wheel is placed somewhere around 4,000BCE right alongside things like writing.


The earliest known mechanical discoveries/inventions were levers, fulcrums and iterations of the rope and harnesses . The Roman's used all of them in building and their pulley systems were quiet impressive.


----------



## geezer (Aug 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> The earliest known mechanical discoveries/inventions were levers, fulcrums and iterations of the rope and harnesses . The Roman's used all of them in building and their pulley systems were quiet impressive.



Heck, Homo Sapiens has been engineering stuff since we emerged on this planet. Ever try flint knapping? How about moving from a throwing stick or thrusting spear to developing and atl atl. That's all about leverage. Man, considering what little they had to work with, the ancients were geniuses. They were the wolves, and we are just lap-dogs by comparison. 

Every time I see one of those idiotic shows about how _aliens_ helped the ancients build the great monuments of their civilizations supposedly "because even modern science can't figure out how they did it" ...I think what a bunch of lunacy. Of course the ancients figured out stuff we've forgotten about. They were just as smart as the brightest minds of our times ...and maybe smarter, because back then_, the dumb and weak died off._ I know for sure, I wouldn't have made it in Paleolithic times. Probably not in _any_ pre-modern times.


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## Buka (Aug 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> Fun fact, the ancient Egyptians are often credited with inventing beer, too.  They were so cool.




 

Had really cool hats, too.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2020)

geezer said:


> Ever try flint knapping? How about moving from a throwing stick or thrusting spear to developing and atl atl.


yeah you are right about that.  The biggest shock was that that all of the modern ideas of hunting with a spear were wrong for a long time. That and the boomerang really shows just how important it was to have a successful hunt lol.  Better the hunting tool the more likely you'll eat.  I wonder how everyone came up with the same idea?  I guess if you hunt with a spear enough you'll find new ways to throw it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2020)

geezer said:


> Every time I see one of those idiotic shows about how _aliens_ helped the ancients build the great monuments of their civilizations supposedly "because even modern science can't figure out how they did it" ...I think what a bunch of lunacy. Of course the ancients figured out stuff we've forgotten about. They were just as smart as the brightest minds of our times ...and maybe smarter, because back then_, the dumb and weak died off._


 ha ha ha.  I say something similar.  I blame the large amount of stupid people on this planet due to the lack of things that normally would eat the dumb. 

people like this





And this





wouldn't live long enough to spread their stupidity. lol


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## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2020)

Not to mention people with physical disabilities, even things as common as near-sightedness.  No glasses, no contact lenses, no lasik, no optometrists back in the day.  Didn’t see that ravine?  Didn’t see that sharp rock that you just stepped on?  Didn’t see that venomous snake near the path?  Didn’t see that tiger lurking on the outskirts of the village?  

Game over.


----------



## Steve (Aug 31, 2020)




----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Not to mention people with physical disabilities, even things as common as near-sightedness.  No glasses, no contact lenses, no lasik, no optometrists back in the day.  Didn’t see that ravine?  Didn’t see that sharp rock that you just stepped on?  Didn’t see that venomous snake near the path?  Didn’t see that tiger lurking on the outskirts of the village?
> 
> Game over.


ha ha ha. it was probably easier to know who your true friends were back then.  Being a team player was probably crucial to survival.  Here's an exercise.  Based on what you know of people in MT.   If you had to be stuck back in time without any way of getting back to modern times.   Who would  you team up with in MT?  Lets say you could only take 8 people with you.  Who would you take to be part of your little group?  You'll quickly identify people who can be trusted and people who might be able to help.

I can only assume that a lot of use would be looking for the Team players.  People who aren't going to take advantage of each other.  So when that tiger comes they understand that it's better to stay together than to run in an attempt to  save their own skin.



Steve said:


>


I prefer this guy.


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## Steve (Aug 31, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha. it was probably easier to know who your true friends were back then.  Being a team player was probably crucial to survival.  Here's an exercise.  Based on what you know of people in MT.   If you had to be stuck back in time without any way of getting back to modern times.   Who would  you team up with in MT?  Lets say you could only take 8 people with you.  Who would you take to be part of your little group?  You'll quickly identify people who can be trusted and people who might be able to help.
> 
> I can only assume that a lot of use would be looking for the Team players.  People who aren't going to take advantage of each other.  So when that tiger comes they understand that it's better to stay together than to run in an attempt to  save their own skin.
> 
> ...


Neils Degrasse Tyson is an actual astrophysicist. If he says there's probably an alien out there, I'm gonna stick with him.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2020)

Steve said:


> Neils Degrasse Tyson is an actual astrophysicist. If he says there's probably an alien out there, I'm gonna stick with him.


jump off the deep end with me.  Lets go with the guy with crazy hair and theories how everything was and is aliens





This is just a taste of all the worldly knowledge that you'll gain. lol.  It'll blow your mind.  How they piece things together.  The best part about it is.  People back then didn't speak in colorful language so everything they say must have been the truth, word, for word.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 15, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> *Buddism was born*:
> Buddhism, founded in the late 6th century B.C.E. by Siddhartha Gautama (the "Buddha"), is an important religion in most of the countries of Asia. Buddhism has assumed many different forms, but in each case there has been an attempt to draw from the life experiences of the Buddha, his teachings, and the "spirit" or "essence" of histeachings (called dhamma or dharma) as models for the religious life. However, not until the writing of the Buddha Charita (life of the Buddha) by Ashvaghosa in the 1st or 2nd century C.E. do we have acomprehensive account of his life. The Buddha was born (ca. 563 B.C.E.)  (source:The Origins of Buddhism)
> 
> *Science was born: *
> ...



Kung fu is not a Chinese invention at all.  It is the basis of all animal and human advancement.  It's right there in the hanzi, 功夫.

The concept of kung fu predates the entire recorded history of scientific inquiry.

This concept predates China.  If you really want to argue, Darwinian Evolution is an almost perfect scientific expression of the natural kung fu of the whole animal kingdom, which is why your 21st century martial art has its basis in no less than 6 different animals that are millions of years old, (or like the dragon, may have never existed at all).

A baby bird cannot fly without practicing his kung fu.  A baby boy can not walk without practicing that kung fu.  And your Jow Ga ancestors trained a lot and developed physical health guidelines for you to prevent many types of issues that arise from all kinds of TMA stances.

Don't you want to stay on-topic with discussion of Jow Ga herbs, liniments, nutritional guidance for safer and healthier Wei Gong training? I'm surprised you're not more interested, but it's up to you.  I'm not here to force feed anyone.

Seriously though, avoid salt while doing any sort of TMA stancework as much as possible, especially deep ma bo and footwork transitions to other stances like any type of gung bo (e.g. jee ng ma bo), or you will suffer later in life.


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