# what does your dojang teach?



## Michael89 (Jan 22, 2014)

whats your dojang's organization? My Dojang is with World Taekwondo Federation  is pretty interesting because My grandmaster is from South Korea. he teach Hapkido and he teaches basic forms and Taeguks along with one kata called Naihanchi under Korean name "Nebojin​[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif]*"*and original Koryo, he also teach Palwge poomses to first dan black belts and he also teach ITF forms to 3nd dan black belts which I thought it was little different considering my dojang is with W.T.F. does anyone know about this? keep in mind, My Grandmaster been training since 1955 at age of 14.​[/FONT]


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 22, 2014)

You might want to clarify your information, because the WTF does not do anything but oversee the promotion of Olympic-based competitions. There cannot be a WTF dojang because the WTF doesn't issue rank. 
We offer geup rank through the Moo Duk Kwan and Dan ranks from Moo Duk Kwan or Kukkiwon. We teach the 6 kicho and 8 Palgwae forms to everybody. The 8 taegeuk forms to those who want Kukkiwon Dan rank. I also practice the Chang Hon forms but we don't use them as part if the curriculum. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 22, 2014)

I can't get the fact that your instructor has been training since 1955 out of my mind, now.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Jan 22, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> >>>>>My Dojang is with World Taekwondo Federation  is pretty interesting because My grandmaster is from South Korea. <<<>>>he also teach ITF forms to 3nd dan black belts which I thought it was little different considering my dojang is with W.T.F. does anyone know about this? keep in mind, My Grandmaster been training since 1955 at age of 14.​



1. The name of your GM is? 

2. It's not unusual to think a Dojanf is with the WTF when that flag hangs on the wall, albeit WTF regulating sport side which is usualy sparring and perhaps Kukki patterns. 

3. Trained at a WTF / Kukki gym  that taught ITF / Chang Hon forms  with General Choi's book on the desk  from 1975-1977. This was common because that's what many of the old timers learned as TKD forms since other than forms taught by the early Kwans which were more properly called something else until people started to jump on the TKD bandwagon to capitalise on the popularity of the name, the Chang Hon forms were what all the old timers learned if they were coming under the "TKD" moniker in 1955.  Even some ITF Pioneers only learned the first 20, including some like Jhoon Rhee and He Il Cho. So basicaly they taught what they knew unless or until they learned the new stuff.


----------



## Michael89 (Jan 22, 2014)

His name is Yun Sam Ko. you can say his name like "Young Sun Code"


----------



## Michael89 (Jan 22, 2014)

I forget to add this. When He was 14. He went to Chang Moo Kwan first then sometime later he took Jido Kwan so I think he teach Jido Kwan style of TKD. He took karate class in Tokyo for a year. maybe I shouldn't say W.T.F. and use "Kukkiwon"


----------



## skribs (Jan 24, 2014)

How about I answer for 2 schools.  One when I was about 7-11 and the other now at 25?

When I was 7-11 we trained at the local YMCA under a nurse.  Her husband ran the parent school in the next city over, he was former American SF who had trained TKD in Korea IIRC.  I don't remember what organization we were in, but I'm going to assume it was Kukikwan.  This was mainly a family class, and we did a combination of forms, sparring, and self defense drills, although a lot of those drills we would practice for one day and never practice again (unless several months later they decided to go over that technique again).  One unique thing is every other Wednesday we would bring our swimsuits and have class in the pool to do resistance training, which was pretty cool!

Our testing in that class generally involved just forms, sparring, and breaking.

I have started over as a white belt, and I am 100% sure this school is KKW.  My master has spent time in Japan, was Korean SF and taught American SF, so he's got a lot of experience.  He teaches us Muay Thai striking, TKD striking, Kibon and Palgwe forms, self defense, weapons, and sparring drills.

The biggest difference between my old school and this school is testing.  In this school, we are tested on basic techniques, combinations (i.e. a couple kicks and/or punches strung together) in various categories, forms, self defense one-step sparring (both striking and grappling), free sparring, falling/rolling techniques, and breaking.  

At first, I thought this was a lot - and it is.  I also didn't agree at first with exactly how he breaks stuff down by belt and with all of the extra mini-forms we have to do.  However, I've come to like the system he has in place.  While in the old school we might have learned self defense techniques here and there for a variety of circumstances, in here we really practice and get the muscle memory for our techniques down pat.  Every once in a while he'll throw in something different for defense - quite often something from Judo - but I really feel like I'm learning a lot.

Oh, I'm pretty sure I've seen the kids sumo wrestling in the class before mine, too.

The interesting thing about my current school is the difference between the TKD class and the HKD class.  In Tae Kwon Do, I'd say it's 60% TKD, 15% Muay Thai, 15% Hapkido, and 10% a mix of Judo and others.  We do forms, basic techniques, breaking, sparring, the whole 9 yards.  It's very well-rounded.  The Hapkido class is 99% self defense grappling, even though there are kicks and strikes in that art.  I think one is more of a general martial arts class and the other is specifically hapkido self defense.

My master, while he focuses on TKD, says that he calls his school a "martial arts" school and not a "Tae Kwon Do school" because he also teaches some Muay Thai, Judo, and Hapkido.


----------



## Michael89 (Jan 25, 2014)

I remember now. My Grandmaster was member of KTA, that might explain why he teach Chang Hon forms to 3nd dan black belts.


----------



## msmitht (Jan 26, 2014)

Sumo? Grappling? In a tkd class?


----------



## skribs (Jan 27, 2014)

Grappling does exist within Tae Kwon Do, even if it isn't taught much.

My master does not operate under the belief that he should only teach TKD.  Although Sumo is a bit of a stretch (its more a game at the end of kids class than something actually taught) but we learn techniques from a variety of arts.  The majority (especially of tested material) is TKD.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jan 27, 2014)

My instructors' school teaches ITF Taekwon-Do.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Michael89 (Jan 27, 2014)

msmitht said:


> Sumo? Grappling? In a tkd class?




my dojang does teach hapkido though self defense systems but yeah I never hear of sumo been teach in taekwondo.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jan 27, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> my dojang does teach hapkido though self defense systems but yeah I never hear of sumo been teach in taekwondo.



Maybe it was actually ssireum (Korean folk wrestling)?

Pax,

Chris


----------



## msmitht (Jan 27, 2014)

Sounds like something to pass the class time.


----------



## Michael89 (Jan 27, 2014)

chrispillertkd said:


> Maybe it was actually ssireum (Korean folk wrestling)?
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



that made more sense if it is. even though that would be cool to learn.


----------



## WaterGal (Feb 1, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> I forget to add this. When He was 14. He went to Chang Moo Kwan first then sometime later he took Jido Kwan so I think he teach Jido Kwan style of TKD. He took karate class in Tokyo for a year. maybe I shouldn't say W.T.F. and use "Kukkiwon"



Kukkiwon is more correct, but most people do say WTF, so don't feel bad about that. I think it's because "World Taekwondo Federation" is an easier name for English-speakers to remember and understand than "Kukkiwon".  Also, stuff like sparring gear and flags and ads for tournaments usually say WTF rather than KKW, so you see that name more, and so I think people just assume that the WTF is the actual governing body of the style.  [Edited for clarity]


----------



## Michael89 (Feb 4, 2014)

I restarted going to dojang couple of weeks ago. Now I am almost back where I need to be..I got all poomses that I know so far, I'm almost done with step sparring and self defense. I love how my grandmaster teach Traditional(not style and i'm assuming it is from Jido Kwan) and modern(Kukkiwon) way of training. Speaking of Kukkiwon, I noticed that my grandmaster been using "Kukkiwon" more than World Taekwondo federation now. one of training masters like to break down the forms..not sure what term for it..like make us to punch moving forward 10 time and then low or high blocks, kicks and punch then punch and block that sort of thing.


----------



## Balrog (Feb 7, 2014)

My school is a member of the American Taekwondo Association.


----------



## Michael89 (Feb 8, 2014)

Balrog said:


> My school is a member of the American Taekwondo Association.




is it good? I'm sorry I heard alot bad stories about ATA.


----------



## Michael89 (Feb 10, 2014)

I found out tonight that style of Karate my grandmaster learned is Shito ryu and plus I guess he learned ITF forms from General Choi in early days.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Feb 11, 2014)

skribs said:


> *Grappling does exist within Tae Kwon Do, even if it isn't taught much.*
> 
> My master does not operate under the belief that he should only teach TKD.  Although Sumo is a bit of a stretch (its more a game at the end of kids class than something actually taught) but we learn techniques from a variety of arts.  The majority (especially of tested material) is TKD.



There are grappling techniques in some of the forms.  They are often lost to modern teachers, and said to be there for the 'art' of martial arts.



Michael89 said:


> my dojang does teach hapkido though self defense systems but yeah I never hear of sumo been teach in taekwondo.



Many schools seem to enjoy teaching things from other arts.  I'm not sure that is a bad thing, making a student more rounded.  Knowledge is always good.  It might be more appropriate for a teacher to mention he was teaching something that wasn't strictly the basic art, but nonetheless, valuable.



chrispillertkd said:


> Maybe it was actually ssireum (Korean folk wrestling)?
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



It looks a lot like Sumo, but is different.  Okinawans used to have a specific form of wrestling similar to Sumo as well.  Practitioners I have seen in those forms usually aren't as heavy.



msmitht said:


> Sumo? Grappling? In a tkd class?



As I mentioned above, grappling is in some of the forms.  I can't recall which forms or what the moves were, but I taught a 4th Dan TKD student.  Every once in a while I would teach a technique and he would mention that was in a form, show it, and state he always wondered why that was in the form when it seemed to have no practical value.  Usually, it was just a shadow of the technique, but it was recognizable and seemed to have no value in the form.


----------



## bluewaveschool (Apr 2, 2014)

I don't teach any certain orgs system.  ITF forms, class grounded in traditional ways, no fancy tournament or stunt team stuff.  Mix in some pressure points, throws and joint locks depending on who is teaching.  I love diving into a form and decoding movements.  It is where most of the grappling/throwing is hidden.


----------



## Michael89 (Apr 3, 2014)

bluewaveschool said:


> I don't teach any certain orgs system.  ITF forms, class grounded in traditional ways, no fancy tournament or stunt team stuff.  Mix in some pressure points, throws and joint locks depending on who is teaching.  I love diving into a form and decoding movements.  It is where most of the grappling/throwing is hidden.


thats real cool. i should become 2nd dan black belt before this year is over so I will get to learn ITF forms.


----------



## Balrog (Apr 30, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> is it good? I'm sorry I heard alot bad stories about ATA.



Sorry in taking so long to respond - life has a tendency to interfere at times.  

I will simply point out that most of the things you hear about ATA come from 
1)  People who know nothing about the ATA and are simply parroting things they hear from others.
2)  The others say those things because they are either jealous of ATA's successful business model, or they couldn't hack ATA's training and washed out.

Is ATA perfect?  Of course not.  It is successful for a reason - we teach solid martial arts in a solid business environment.  But we are like any other large organization of people; you can map us on a bell curve and there will always be some folks under the left side of the curve.  And they tend to be the ones who pee in the pool for the rest of us.  You'll find those kind of folks in any organization.

As far as my school?  Well, I have said repeatedly that I might not be the best instructor in the world, but I most assuredly have the best students in the world.  Now, I might be just a little biased, you understand, but I think it's justified.


----------



## RyanGarry (Jun 9, 2014)

My Dojang is also under the Kukkiwon and WTF banners, though we are not within a Union, Our club is part of its own association called Eire Tekwondo, 'Eire' being the Irish word for Ireland for anyone who might be confused haha We are thought very traditional taekwondo compared to other clubs over here, we learn the 8 and 17 basic movements along with the 8 taeguk poomsaes and Koryo-Ilyo from 1st Dan onwards.
We are also linked with the World Taekwonmudo academy and Mudo style from Kim Chungdokwan created by Grandmaster Kim Yong Ho from South Korea who was Chairman of the Technical Committee of the WTF from 1998-2001, he is a very inspiring and wise Grandmaster, for anyone who has had the pleasure of meeting him, you would agree I'm sure  Anyway, just thought I'd share what my Dojang teaches


----------



## msmitht (Jun 9, 2014)

1. I have been to Korea and know several masters who have grown up there, in modern times, and they all say the same: no grappling in tkd. These are men and women who have done tkd since they were 5 in Korea who are between 25-35 years old. 
2. Just because someone says it is a part of tkd poomsae/hyung does not mean that it is. It is more likely that this is their own idea about what the move could mean. Good way to keep students from seeking out a true grappling school.


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 9, 2014)

^^^ I am not saying I believe there are grappling techniques hidden in the poomsae, because I'm quite positive that their aren't. They were not created with any grappling techniques in mind. However, to say there is no grappling in TKD is just purely wrong. And just because a person is Korean does not immediately make them more knowledgeable about Taekwondo than somebody else. Also, just because you've been training in an art for 20 years does not immediately make you knowledgeable about your art. Some people train for 20 years in the same dojang. If that particular dojang does not teach grappling, then sure, that person is going to say that grappling is not taught in TKD. However, if you go on the kukkiwon website right now you will see several grappling techniques clearly displayed in the techniques section.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 9, 2014)

MAist25 said:


> ^^^ I am not saying I believe there are grappling techniques hidden in the poomsae, because I'm quite positive that their aren't. They were not created with any grappling techniques in mind. However, to say there is no grappling in TKD is just purely wrong. And just because a person is Korean does not immediately make them more knowledgeable about Taekwondo than somebody else. Also, just because you've been training in an art for 20 years does not immediately make you knowledgeable about your art. Some people train for 20 years in the same dojang. If that particular dojang does not teach grappling, then sure, that person is going to say that grappling is not taught in TKD. However, if you go on the kukkiwon website right now you will see several grappling techniques clearly displayed in the techniques section.


Wow. The instructors I was referring to graduated from Yong In university. They specifically went there for tkd and when they graduated they were sent to the USA on a internship at a friends school. I think they know tkd better than most. 
I have trained at many schools. I've done ITF, kkw, tsd(mdk) and bjj. In pure tkd there is no grappling.
Now if you are referring to a hip toss or kneeling one steps or choke defense that is different, but is still not grappling in the modern sense. 
Example: tkd defense against a rear choke is the same as in judo and bjj-trap the arm, pulling it away from your throat towards your chest. Then make a base and hip throw(ippon seoi nage). The difference is in the follow up and overall strategy. A grappler will go down with you and keep you there(or just arm bar you). A tkd student will punch you then back off so to remain on their feet.


----------



## skribs (Jun 9, 2014)

> Now if you are referring to a hip toss or kneeling one steps or choke  defense that is different, but is still not grappling in the modern  sense.
> Example: tkd defense against a rear choke is the same as in judo and  bjj-trap the arm, pulling it away from your throat towards your chest.  Then make a base and hip throw(ippon seoi nage). The difference is in  the follow up and overall strategy. A grappler will go down with you and  keep you there(or just arm bar you). A tkd student will punch you then  back off so to remain on their feet.



This is grappling.  Just because some techniques don't finish the same way doesn't make it any less so.  In our class we've learned various finishers, from just punching and walking away, to axe kicks, to standing over the opponent and breaking the arm against the knee, to going down and doing an arm bar or rear naked choke.  It's clear that the different methods would be better in different circumstances (i.e. defending against a group, fighting a single opponent, police officer subduing a suspect).

Yes, there is no competitive grappling.
Yes, the focus is on striking.
Yes, many of the grappling techniques are self defense techniques that try to end with the TKDer standing.

But there is grappling.


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 9, 2014)

msmitht said:


> Wow. The instructors I was referring to graduated from Yong In university. They specifically went there for tkd and when they graduated they were sent to the USA on a internship at a friends school. I think they know tkd better than most.
> I have trained at many schools. I've done ITF, kkw, tsd(mdk) and bjj. In pure tkd there is no grappling.
> Now if you are referring to a hip toss or kneeling one steps or choke defense that is different, but is still not grappling in the modern sense.
> Example: tkd defense against a rear choke is the same as in judo and bjj-trap the arm, pulling it away from your throat towards your chest. Then make a base and hip throw(ippon seoi nage). The difference is in the follow up and overall strategy. A grappler will go down with you and keep you there(or just arm bar you). A tkd student will punch you then back off so to remain on their feet.



You and I have different definitions of grappling. And that is impressive that the instructors you are referring to went to Yong In. The instructor I am referring to is Grandmaster Richard Chun, one of the first men who brought Taekwondo to the United States and one of the most well-respected grandmasters still alive today.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 9, 2014)

msmitht said:


> Wow. The instructors I was referring to graduated from Yong In university. They specifically went there for tkd and when they graduated they were sent to the USA on a internship at a friends school. I think they know tkd better than most.
> I have trained at many schools. I've done ITF, kkw, tsd(mdk) and bjj. In pure tkd there is no grappling.
> Now if you are referring to a hip toss or kneeling one steps or choke defense that is different, but is still not grappling in the modern sense.
> Example: tkd defense against a rear choke is the same as in judo and bjj-trap the arm, pulling it away from your throat towards your chest. Then make a base and hip throw(ippon seoi nage). The difference is in the follow up and overall strategy. A grappler will go down with you and keep you there(or just arm bar you). A tkd student will punch you then back off so to remain on their feet.



That's grappling...
The idea that grappling refers only to ground fighting is incorrect. 



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 9, 2014)

MAist25 said:


> You and I have different definitions of grappling. And that is impressive that the instructors you are referring to went to Yong In. The instructor I am referring to is Grandmaster Richard Chun, one of the first men who brought Taekwondo to the United States and one of the most well-respected grandmasters still alive today.



I've done bjj for about 13-14 years now. I completely understand the difference. We can throw out names of instructors, mine came here 1965 and taught chuck seriff,  but it does not change the fact that Take kwon do emphasizes stand up fighting with feet and hands at medium to long range. 
Grappling, be it judo/wrestling/bjj, has a very different strategy. They want to get close, take you down and apply strikes and submissions while maintaining a dominant position (for reference watch the first 5 UFC's).
Does your instructor have you practice full power/speed throws while oppent is resistant and attempting the same? Do you allow for full randori or "free training", either with or without a GI?  Have you been taught the hierarchy of ground grappling positions? 
Or do you do a self defense move/one step/choreographed routine with minimal resistance? I'm not poking fun. I want to know. When I learned hapkido I thought I knew grappling. Then i trained in judo and finally bjj. The difference lies in the overall strategy of the art. That is why I say that there is no grappling in tkd.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 9, 2014)

msmitht said:


> I've done bjj for about 13-14 years now. I completely understand the difference. We can throw out names of instructors, mine came here 1965 and taught chuck seriff,  but it does not change the fact that Take kwon do emphasizes stand up fighting with feet and hands at medium to long range.



There is a *vast* difference between this and your original (false) claim that there is no grappling in TKD.



msmitht said:


> Grappling, be it judo/wrestling/bjj, has a very different strategy. They want to get close, take you down and apply strikes and submissions while maintaining a dominant position (for reference watch the first 5 UFC's).
> Does your instructor have you practice full power/speed throws while oppent is resistant and attempting the same? Do you allow for full randori or "free training", either with or without a GI?  Have you been taught the hierarchy of ground grappling positions?
> Or do you do a self defense move/one step/choreographed routine with minimal resistance? I'm not poking fun. I want to know. When I learned hapkido I thought I knew grappling. Then i trained in judo and finally bjj. The difference lies in the overall strategy of the art. That is why I say that there is no grappling in tkd.



Perhaps you'd like to take a look at the definition of grappling because your insistence that it applies only to ground fighting is just plain incorrect.


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 9, 2014)

msmitht said:


> I've done bjj for about 13-14 years now. I completely understand the difference. We can throw out names of instructors, mine came here 1965 and taught chuck seriff,  but it does not change the fact that Take kwon do emphasizes stand up fighting with feet and hands at medium to long range.
> Grappling, be it judo/wrestling/bjj, has a very different strategy. They want to get close, take you down and apply strikes and submissions while maintaining a dominant position (for reference watch the first 5 UFC's).
> Does your instructor have you practice full power/speed throws while oppent is resistant and attempting the same? Do you allow for full randori or "free training", either with or without a GI?  Have you been taught the hierarchy of ground grappling positions?
> Or do you do a self defense move/one step/choreographed routine with minimal resistance? I'm not poking fun. I want to know. When I learned hapkido I thought I knew grappling. Then i trained in judo and finally bjj. The difference lies in the overall strategy of the art. That is why I say that there is no grappling in tkd.



Its amazing that you've been practicing BJJ for 14 years and you don't know what the difference between grappling and ground fighting is... and I used to train in judo, so I know what it is like to throw and be thrown (mostly be thrown). But yea, my TKD dojang did allow throws in sparring, and yes we did train with and without gi's. Just because the grappling strategy of a BJJ guy is different than the grappling strategy of a TKD guy does not mean we do not have grappling...


----------



## msmitht (Jun 9, 2014)

MAist25 said:


> Its amazing that you've been practicing BJJ for 14 years and you don't know what the difference between grappling and ground fighting is... and I used to train in judo, so I know what it is like to throw and be thrown (mostly be thrown). But yea, my TKD dojang did allow throws in sparring, and yes we did train with and without gi's. Just because the grappling strategy of a BJJ guy is different than the grappling strategy of a TKD guy does not mean we do not have grappling...


Well guess what? That is not Taekwondo as it is done in Korea or any kukkiwon style school I've been in. Those that have a grappling class call it judo, bjj or whatever GRAPPLING Style it is(unless the instructor is a liar) Taekwondo is not a grappling style of martial art. In modern competition Taekwondo(the Olympic style) it is nonexistent.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 9, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is a *vast* difference between this and your original (false) claim that there is no grappling in TKD.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you'd like to take a look at the definition of grappling because your insistence that it applies only to ground fighting is just plain incorrect.



I was referring to a grappling system that teaches EFFECTIVE grappling and ground fighting.


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 10, 2014)

msmitht said:


> Well guess what? That is not Taekwondo as it is done in Korea or any kukkiwon style school I've been in. Those that have a grappling class call it judo, bjj or whatever GRAPPLING Style it is(unless the instructor is a liar) Taekwondo is not a grappling style of martial art. In modern competition Taekwondo(the Olympic style) it is nonexistent.



Well considering my school was a Kukkiwon style school, I guess I've just shown you that you're wrong. Just because Taekwondo is not predominantly a grappling art does not mean it does not contain elements of grappling. This is not an opinion, its a fact. And Olympic Taekwondo discludes about 90% of taekwondo techniques, so that's not really a relevant point...



> I was referring to a grappling system that teaches EFFECTIVE grappling and ground fighting.



Again, Taekwondo DOES teach EFFECTIVE grappling, and even ground fighting. The only difference is that a BJJ guy likes being on the floor, a TKD guy doesn't. We can take guys to the ground, but do not want to be down there with them. If we do find ourselves on the ground, everything we do while there is in the effort to get back to our feet. Once again, much different strategy than a BJJ guy, but grappling and ground fighting nonetheless


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 10, 2014)

msmitht said:


> Well guess what? That is not Taekwondo as it is done in Korea or any kukkiwon style school I've been in. Those that have a grappling class call it judo, bjj or whatever GRAPPLING Style it is(unless the instructor is a liar) Taekwondo is not a grappling style of martial art. In modern competition Taekwondo(the Olympic style) it is nonexistent.



The Kukkiwon and taekwondo are not synonymous. If you've been told that they are, you've been lied to. 
And of course, the SPORT of taekwondo is only a fraction of what the ART teaches. 



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 10, 2014)

msmitht said:


> I was referring to a grappling system that teaches EFFECTIVE grappling and ground fighting.



I use my grappling skills far too often in the ER. They're quite effective. Perhaps the problem isn't just one of definitions, but poor training?


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## skribs (Jun 10, 2014)

> The difference lies in the overall strategy of the art. That is why I say that there is no grappling in tkd.



The strategies of Taekwondo and Boxing are vastly different.  Does that mean that one of them is not a striking art?

The grappling in TKD is different from that of Judo/Jujitsu, yes.  It is different from Hapkido, and Hapkido is different from Judo and Jujitsu as well.  That doesn't mean that only one of them is grappling and the others are not.  They are different pieces to different puzzles.

The teacher and student are more important than the art, IMHO.  I have a better understanding of grappling now in my TKD school than I did doing wrestling, because I've grown in my ability to learn since I did wrestling.  Should I say that TKD has better grappling than wrestling?  No.

Does the olympic sport allow grappling?  No.
Does the basic KKW test require grappling?  No.
Does that mean that a school affiliated with KKW that teaches WTF sparring can't teach grappling?  No.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jun 10, 2014)

msmitht said:


> In pure tkd there is no grappling.



I study Rhee TKD in Australia it is taught as a traditional martial art of self defence taught in the way it was originally developed before any of the sporting elements were added. Most of the instructors have not significantly trained in anything else and we don't cross train, its about as pure as it gets and I can tell you, there are plenty of grappling techniques in it. It is just not the only primary focus. Your statement is way off base.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jun 10, 2014)

msmitht said:


> Grappling, be it judo/wrestling/bjj, has a very different strategy. They want to get close, take you down and apply strikes and submissions while maintaining a dominant position (for reference watch the first 5 UFC's).



A strategy based primarily on sporting competition.



msmitht said:


> Do you allow for full randori or "free training", either with or without a GI?



Basically you are describing a form of free sparring with a focus on grappling instead of striking, in which case most people would answer YES.



msmitht said:


> Have you been taught the hierarchy of ground grappling positions?



Too specific - like asking if you teach Chi Sao.



msmitht said:


> Does your instructor have you practice full power/speed throws while oppent is resistant and attempting the same? Or do you do a self defense move/one step/choreographed routine with minimal resistance? I'm not poking fun. I want to know.



Choreographed implies that self defence moves are done for entertainment purposes, they are not. You need minimal resistance to learn and develop the technique, you need increased resistance to ensure the technique will work, full resistance in some things requires full force in the execution of the technique that can lead to serious injury. You want to injure your attacker not your training partner.


----------



## Gnarlie (Jun 10, 2014)

Some of the statements made in this thread regarding KKW TKD are rather misleading.

The KKW testing requirements specify self defence as one the 5 disciplines required to be demonstrated (the others being sport sparring, breaking, step sparring, and poomsae).

What's specifically within that SD bracket varies greatly with location, school, and individual instructor experience.

At most of the schools I've been part of, grappling has been on the SD agenda in some form, often with hapkido and yudo techniques incorporated, and including some degree of ground work (usually with the defender remaining standing, but not always). 

This is particularly true with the Yong In alumni, as there's a strong current of military / security service / yudo accompanying their Taekwondo practice.

So, is grappling specifically on the syllabus? No. But self defence is, and it's hard to practice Taekwondo self defence in any reasonable way with any reasonably experienced trainer and not learn some level of grappling skill.

I spend quite a significant proportion of my training time being thrown or grappled to the ground and doing the same to others, within the KKW framework. 

Gnarlie


----------



## msmitht (Jun 10, 2014)

maist25 said:


> well considering my school was a kukkiwon style school, i guess i've just shown you that you're wrong. Just because taekwondo is not predominantly a grappling art does not mean it does not contain elements of grappling. This is not an opinion, its a fact. And olympic taekwondo discludes about 90% of taekwondo techniques, so that's not really a relevant point...
> 
> 
> 
> Again, taekwondo does teach effective grappling, and even ground fighting. The only difference is that a bjj guy likes being on the floor, a tkd guy doesn't. We can take guys to the ground, but do not want to be down there with them. If we do find ourselves on the ground, everything we do while there is in the effort to get back to our feet. Once again, much different strategy than a bjj guy, but grappling and ground fighting nonetheless


rotflol! If you want to believe that modern Taekwondo, the style that I am referring to(yes, the Olympic style), teaches grappling then good for you. You are wrong. I've been to Korea. I have friends who grew up there. 
If you want to go by the wiki definition of grappling then there is "graplling " taught in every style of martial art. Dancing could be considered grappling. I will say again that it is the strategy Behind the techniques that makes it grappling.


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 10, 2014)

^^^ Is something funny?


----------



## msmitht (Jun 10, 2014)

Gnarlie said:


> Some of the statements made in this thread regarding KKW TKD are rather misleading.
> 
> The KKW testing requirements specify self defence as one the 5 disciplines required to be demonstrated (the others being sport sparring, breaking, step sparring, and poomsae).
> 
> ...


Correct! Grappling is not a part of tkd(kkw-the Olympic style) syllabus. I'm happy you could confirm it.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 10, 2014)

I think it is funny. I've been referring to kukkiwon tkd. Most people know that it is the Olympic style.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 11, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> A strategy based primarily on sporting competition.
> And the issue is? Seen it work in sport and on street. That strategy has been around for thousands of years.
> 
> 
> ...


Agree about not wanting to hurt training partners but we practice with full resistance every day in bjj. Do people get hurt? Yes. It takes an long time to learn and many, more than 70%, drop out before achieving brown belt. Most injuries are one of pride or ego due to not wanting to tap.


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 11, 2014)

msmitht said:


> I think it is funny. I've been referring to kukkiwon tkd. Most people know that it is the Olympic style.



But Kukki Taekwondo isn't Olympic TKD.... You seem to have difficulty understanding that. WTF Taekwondo is the Olympic Taekwondo. The World Taekwondo Federation and the Kukkiwon are completely different things.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 11, 2014)

MAist25 said:


> But Kukki Taekwondo isn't Olympic TKD.... You seem to have difficulty understanding that. WTF Taekwondo is the Olympic Taekwondo. The World Taekwondo Federation and the Kukkiwon are completely different things.


Yes it is!!! The wtf oversees competition for kukkiwon Taekwondo stylists! I will be attending a Dan test later this year at the kukkiwon. I referee and coach at WTF events. If you look at international rules of competition you will see that a kukkiwon certificate is needed to compete. 
Someone else please chime in here.


----------



## Archtkd (Jun 11, 2014)

MAist25 said:


> But Kukki Taekwondo isn't Olympic TKD.... You seem to have difficulty understanding that. WTF Taekwondo is the Olympic Taekwondo. The World Taekwondo Federation and the Kukkiwon are completely different things.



Said who? It's an interesting day when someone states that a Kukkiwon taekwondo 6th dan, certified international master instructor and certified coach does not know the difference between the Kukkiwon and WTF. The Kukkiwon and the WTF are joined at the hip; One (WTF) runs the sports side of things, the other (Kukkiwon) certfifies the folks who participate in the sport (sparring and poomsae) competition, and conducts  high level training, research and development on the martial art/sport. Until not too long ago, the president of the WTF was also the president of the Kukkiwon. There could be some folks on this forum who hold dan certificates issued (that happened for a short time in the 1980s) by the WTF.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 11, 2014)

Archtkd said:


> Said who? It's an interesting day when someone states that a Kukkiwon taekwondo 6th dan, certified international master instructor and certified coach does not know the difference between the Kukkiwon and WTF. The Kukkiwon and the WTF are joined at the hip; One (WTF) runs the sports side of things, the other (Kukkiwon) certfifies the folks who participate in the sport (sparring and poomsae) competition, and conducts  high level training, research and development on the martial art/sport. Until not too long ago, the president of the WTF was also the president of the Kukkiwon. There could be some folks on this forum who hold dan certificates issued (that happened for a short time in the 1980s) by the WTF.



Thank you


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 11, 2014)

Although they are joined at the hip, they are not the same. As you said, the WTF runs the sport side, and the Kukkiwon certifies, conducts training, research, etc. But the sport aspect is a very small aspect of what the overall Kukki style of Taekwondo is.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 11, 2014)

MAist25 said:


> Although they are joined at the hip, they are not the same. As you said, the WTF runs the sport side, and the Kukkiwon certifies, conducts training, research, etc. But the sport aspect is a very small aspect of what the overall Kukki style of Taekwondo is.



Really? I took a coaching/sport science course there. As a part of all 3 master instructor courses I have taken we had to know modern competition rules and regulations, how to train and coach/counsel students/athletes. The second one i took had specific sport drills for agility, power and reaction timing. On the Kukkiwon master instructors exam we had to answer questions regarding the WTF, GASIF and IOC.
Seems pretty sport oriented to me. Do you have to compete to be a part of kukkiwon? No. If you do who runs the event and sets the rules based on the techniques emphasized by the kukkiwon? The WTF!


----------



## msmitht (Jun 11, 2014)

I would also recommend you read the current kukki textbooks. The second ones cover says "poomsae/demonstration/competition rules and interpretations/training of taekwondo players.You can find them at http://www.sangmoosa.com/shop/shop_goodsview.asp?Top=9&Steps=000090010800109&g_code=2008826145551


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 11, 2014)

Well of course if you were to attend the masters course, they would expect you to know this material, as it is one of the aspects of the overall style. However, like I said, it is only one aspect of the overall martial art. There are many instructors who are KKW masters who are very into the sport and competition. But there are also masters who emphasize the other aspects of TKD much more than the sport. As a matter of fact, one of the master instructors of my association, and one on GM Chun's senior instructors, who is a 6th Dan Kukkiwon certified master, has trained at the Kukkiwon many times where the sport aspect of TKD was not even addressed while he was training there. Does he have to know and understand the sport aspect? Yes, but at his school, there is very little emphasis placed on it. Kukki Taekwondo is much more than just "Olympic style TKD".


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 11, 2014)

"The essentials of Taewondo are demonstrated through breaking, self defense and Poomsae."

This a quote taken directly from the Kukkiwon website. I think it speaks for itself. Obviously "sport" is not mentioned as an essential aspect of Taekwondo.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 11, 2014)

You do know that sparring is mandatory at kukkiwon Dan testing? So is Poomsae and they have had world championships for many years now. Both have rules set by....guess who? Breaking is the last main requirement to pass for poom and dan(past 5th you need a thesis). It is mostly used in demonstrations and for training.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 11, 2014)

It is a large aspect. It is the national sport of south Korea. It is played in all school levels through college and they have a professional league. If they win a national championship they get a reduction in time between Dan levels! 
Where did/do they all get their poom/Dan? The kukkiwon.


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 11, 2014)

Very interesting, is the same true for time in grade reduction if one were to win the world poomsae championship or a national poomsae competition?


----------



## msmitht (Jun 11, 2014)

First you say that they are not the same style. Then you say that they are joined at the hip. You are wrong and I'm tired.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 11, 2014)

MAist25 said:


> Very interesting, is the same true for time in grade reduction if one were to win the world poomsae championship or a national poomsae competition?


The rule applies to any major wtf international event or countries national championship. Poomsae is not in the Olympics so the 100% time reduction is out but world championship would get a one time 80%reduction in time.


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 11, 2014)

msmitht said:


> First you say that they are not the same style. Then you say that they are joined at the hip. You are wrong and I'm tired.



Joined at the hip, but not the same. I don't believe I'm wrong at all. But enjoy your snooze.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 11, 2014)

msmitht said:


> It is a large aspect. It is the national sport of south Korea. It is played in all school levels through college and they have a professional league. If they win a national championship they get a reduction in time between Dan levels!
> Where did/do they all get their poom/Dan? The kukkiwon.



Ummm.... so what? All you have to do is have Dan ranking in another system (say... the ITF) and the Kukkiwon will give you equivalent rank so that you can compete in WTF events. Doesn't matter if you know the KKW curriculum.
 At least, that is what we were assured was policy by a couple of former MT members who were at least 7th Dan KKW. They were quite frank about it. 

And of course, it still remains true that the KKW is not synonymous with TKD. And the subset of KKW TKD that deals only with the SPORT is not even close to being the entirety of TKD.
If you're saying that there is no grappling is WTF competition, I won't argue (although they grapple all the time, when they want the ref to call a break). But your statement was that there is no grappling in TKD. This is patently false.


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 11, 2014)

^^^ Thank you.


----------



## skribs (Jun 11, 2014)

You HAVE admitted that there is some grappling in TKD self-defense, you just refuse to call it grappling because it's not ground fighting.

Now you're pointing to the olympic-style and saying that if it's not olympic style, KKW doesn't care.  If that were the case, then only practical speed kicking would be the focus of TKD.  If you're only using olympic rules as your benchmark, then you're going to ignore blocks, hand strikes, knee strikes, poomsae, etc.

Any self defense skills which involve grabs, throws, take-downs, or defense against those is part of grappling, even if it's not ground fighting.  I think the important thing is to separate the definitions of ground fighting and grappling, much like you would separate apples and fruit.  Is TKD as sophisticated as judo or hapkido in that regard?  No.  But it is still part of the art.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 11, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Ummm.... so what? All you have to do is have Dan ranking in another system (say... the ITF) and the Kukkiwon will give you equivalent rank so that you can compete in WTF events. Doesn't matter if you know the KKW curriculum.
> At least, that is what we were assured was policy by a couple of former MT members who were at least 7th Dan KKW. They were quite frank about it.
> 
> And of course, it still remains true that the KKW is not synonymous with TKD. And the subset of KKW TKD that deals only with the SPORT is not even close to being the entirety of TKD.
> If you're saying that there is no grappling is WTF competition, I won't argue (although they grapple all the time, when they want the ref to call a break). But your statement was that there is no grappling in TKD. This is patently false.


Not in the taekwondo currently taught in Korea there isn't.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 11, 2014)

msmitht said:


> Not in the taekwondo currently taught in Korea there isn't.



North Korea isn't Korea? :rofl:

Wouldn't it just be easier to just say "yeah, I only meant one small part of TKD, not TKD as a whole?"

And of course, your statement here is incorrect, since there are certainly non-KKW dojangs in South Korea.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 11, 2014)

Types of grappling

There are many different regional styles of grappling around the world that are practiced within a limited geographic area or country. Several grappling styles like Sport Judo, Shoot wrestling, Catch wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Sport Sambo and several types of wrestling including Freestyle and Greco-Roman have gained global popularity. Judo, Freestyle Wrestling, and Greco-Roman Wrestling are Olympic Sports while Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and Sambo have their own World Championship Competitions. Other known grappling-oriented systems are shuai jiao, malla-yuddha and aikido.

In these arts, the object is either to take down and pin the opponent, or to catch the adversary in a specialized chokehold or joint lock which forces him or her to submit and admit defeat or be rendered helpless (unconscious or broken limbs). There are two forms of dress for grappling that dictate pace and style of action: with a jacket, such as a gi[3] or kurtka, and without. The jacket, or "gi", form most often utilizes grips on the cloth to control the opponent's body, while the "no-gi" form emphasizes body control of the torso and head using only the natural holds provided by the body. The use of a jacket is compulsory in judo competition, sambo competition, and most Brazilian jiu-jitsu competition, as well as a variety of folk wrestling styles around the world. Jackets are not used in many forms of wrestling, such as Olympic Freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestling.

Grappling techniques are also used in mixed martial arts along with striking techniques. Strikes can be used to set up grappling techniques and vice-versa.


Now Wikipedia does mention defensive grappling which involves self defense. But looking at the definition of grappling styles I don't see Taekwondo listed, nor does the description match the current, modern day Taekwondo. The clinch in kyroogi is a time when you are trying to gain an advantage (or get the ref to say kalyo) but there are no takedowns allowed or submissions/ pain compliance.
Let me rephrase:there is no ground grappling or offensive grappling in Taekwondo. If the school you are at teaches defensive grappling, it is not a part of modern day (competitive) Taekwondo.

And MAist, you don't know modern day Taekwondo. The honorable GM Richard Chun studied a long time ago and the techniques he learned were a mix of karate, judo, kung fu and daitio ryu  ju jitsu. A good system by anyones standard, but not modern Taekwondo. I find it hard to believe that his senior instructor went to kukkiwon and at no time was there any sport related information passed on. Maybe he was there for a poomsae course. You do know what kukkiwon means when you translate it, right? It means"institute of national SPORT".


----------



## msmitht (Jun 11, 2014)

I was referring to pure Taekwondo as is taught in Schools (k-college)in South Korea. I've been there. Have you?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 11, 2014)

msmitht said:


> I was referring to pure Taekwondo as is taught in Schools (k-college)in South Korea. I've been there. Have you?



:rofl:
That's not "pure", that's simply one *piece* of TKD. So, if we try to understand your thinking, which is "pure" baseball, the American League, or the National? They're the same game, but with some differences.
Same as KKW TKD differs from other styles of TKD.

Maybe you're just one of those people whose ego won't allow them to admit they made a mistake?
That's sad.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jun 11, 2014)

skribs said:


> Any self defense skills which involve grabs, throws, take-downs, or defense against those is part of grappling, even if it's not ground fighting.  I think the important thing is to separate the definitions of ground fighting and grappling, much like you would separate apples and fruit.



At this point I would like to point out (if it is not obvious to everyone here) that you can also have ground fighting without grappling.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jun 11, 2014)

I guess some of us are *grappling *with some issues.


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 11, 2014)

> And MAist, you don't know modern day Taekwondo. The honorable GM Richard Chun studied a long time ago and the techniques he learned were a mix of karate, judo, kung fu and daitio ryu  ju jitsu. A good system by anyones standard, but not modern Taekwondo. I find it hard to believe that his senior instructor went to kukkiwon and at no time was there any sport related information passed on. Maybe he was there for a poomsae course. You do know what kukkiwon means when you translate it, right? It means"institute of national SPORT".



GM Chun's guys are not the only people I've trained with. I've trained under a 6th Dan named Master Jae Y. Lim as well in what you would call a "pure" Kukki Taekwondo school. We practiced grappling at that school as well.... I've also trained with Master Aziz Nabih, a 5th Dan master, and 2 international competitors who fight for the Egyptian national team. And although you are correct that Chun learned a long time ago, he has continued to make trips to Korea to keep up to date on the way things are done. Just last year at a seminar he taught us more revisions to poomsae that he had learned from a recent tip to Korea. If he didn't know "modern" Taekwondo, he would still have us practicing the pyung ahn hyung like he used to teach. 

And as a matter of fact, his senior instructor actually experienced no sport aspects of TKD while he was at the Kukkiwon, and no, he wasn't there for poomsae training. The Kukkiwon was only one of the places he trained at while there, and actually, in every place he trained, the sport of Taekwondo was never included in the training. He trained at the International Kumgang Taekwondo Center under Master Byeong Cheol An. They trained in meditation, refinement of basic techniques, kicking, poomsae, forearm conditioning, and hosinsul, which I'll add, contained grappling. 

He then trained at the Kukkiwon under GM No. They trained in stepping basics, kicking techniques, footwork, and poomsae. Next, he trained at the World Taekwondo Instructor Academy with GM Kyu Hyun Lee. There they practiced basics, poomsae, and hosinsul. The master even demonstrated the original Koryo poomsae, which we still learn in our association, to GM Lee, who was extremely happy and even had one of his students videotape the performance. The vast majority of the training, however, was hosinsul training, which GM Lee had a blast with, and included many grappling techniques.

Not once did he train in "sport" Taekwondo...


----------



## skribs (Jun 11, 2014)

I would not say that Taekwondo is a grappling art.  That doesn't mean it doesn't have grappling.

Just like how Judo has some strikes.  Strikes might not be allowed in competition, but they are in the forms and are in self defense (and are useful if you plan on doing MMA with your Judo skills).  That doesn't make it a striking art, just like having a few grappling techniques doesn't make TKD a grappling art.  Saying "he threw strikes, that's not Judo" would be a falsehood, unless you're talking about competition.  There is a good correlation I think between no strikes in Judo competition and no grappling in WTF sparring, but that both arts include the techniques in some form or another.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 11, 2014)

msmitht said:


> ...
> If you want to go by the wiki definition of grappling then there is "graplling " taught in every style of martial art. ...



I would say that is true, with possibly a few exceptions.

Of course, there is a huge difference in the extent, focus, and quality of grappling taught in different arts.  If Bob has trained for ten years exclusively in TKD and Charlie has trained for ten years exclusively in BJJ, then I would expect Charlie to be vastly more skilled and knowledgeable about grappling than Bob. Likewise I would expect Bob to be much more skilled in striking. That doesn't mean Bob can't demonstrate a hip throw or that Charlie can't throw a punch.

It seems that you guys are just arguing about definitions. Personally, I use the more inclusive definition. I've experienced grappling in BJJ, Judo, Kali, Muay Thai, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Danzan Ryu, Bando, Boxing, Silat, TKD, and more. (Not saying I'm particularly expert in most of those arts.) In some of those arts the grappling wasn't very good. In others, the grappling was limited to a very specific purpose. Still, I'm not going to deny its existence just because it doesn't match the depth or focus of BJJ.

This is from someone who has no dog in the fight regarding TKD. I'm primarily a BJJ/Muay Thai guy and it's been 30 years since I took a TKD class.


----------



## msmitht (Jun 11, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> :rofl:
> That's not "pure", that's simply one *piece* of TKD. So, if we try to understand your thinking, which is "pure" baseball, the American League, or the National? They're the same game, but with some differences.
> Same as KKW TKD differs from other styles of TKD.
> 
> ...


Is my opinion. We have very different ideas of what grappling is. Maybe I should have said effective offensive/defensive grappling with the intent to engage your partner by clinching, taking them down, achieving a dominant position and either apply a submission or beating them til they give up or are unconsciois.That is how I define grappling. Does that work for you?


----------



## skribs (Jun 11, 2014)

> I would say that is true, with possibly a few exceptions.


 
I would agree, the exceptions being striking sports like boxing or kickboxing, which are completely dedicated to the sport.



> Of course, there is a huge difference in the extent, focus, and quality of grappling taught in different arts. If Bob has trained for ten years exclusively in TKD and Charlie has trained for ten years exclusively in BJJ, then I would expect Charlie to be vastly more skilled and knowledgeable about grappling than Bob. Likewise I would expect Bob to be much more skilled in striking. That doesn't mean Bob can't demonstrate a hip throw or that Charlie can't throw a punch.
> 
> It seems that you guys are just arguing about definitions. Personally, I use the more inclusive definition. I've experienced grappling in BJJ, Judo, Kali, Muay Thai, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Danzan Ryu, Bando, Boxing, Silat, TKD, and more. (Not saying I'm particularly expert in most of those arts.) In some of those arts the grappling wasn't very good. In others, the grappling was limited to a very specific purpose. Still, I'm not going to deny its existence just because it doesn't match the depth or focus of BJJ.


 
Very well said.  I would agree that BJJ might have a more thorough understanding of grappling techniques and theory, but to say that TKD has 0 grappling because BJJ does it better is hogwash.



> Is my opinion. We have very different ideas of what grappling is. Maybe I should have said effective offensive/defensive grappling with the intent to engage your partner by clinching, taking them down, achieving a dominant position and either apply a submission or beating them til they give up or are unconsciois.That is how I define grappling. Does that work for you?


 
That might be how you define grappling.  However, some of the techniques I have been taught in my TKD class meet that definition.  Sometimes we finish with a strike, sometimes a throw, sometimes a submission hold of some sort.  With that said, I know my master spent some time in Japan and some of the stuff he teaches has a Judo influence.

I would also say youre in the minority that the definition you provided is the criteria needed for grappling.  I would say any techniques that seek to manipulate your opponents/attackers body instead of simply attacking would be considered grappling.


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 11, 2014)

Straight from the KKW website:

*Kkeokgi (&#44734;&#44592* Snapping
Techniques of restraining by pressing or twisting the opponents joints
These are restraining skills to press or twist the opponents wrist, elbow, shoulder, ankle, or knee with the performer's hand. These skills are executed when the performer is seized by the assailant or one is grabbing the opponent at close range.


*Neomgigi (&#45336;&#44592;&#44592* Throwing down or Tripping up
Tripping up or throwing down techniques by pulling or pushing the opponent off balance


*Japgi (&#51105;&#44592 * Grabbing
Auxiliary techniques of holding the opponents body, collar, etc. with the hands.
They are auxiliary skills to interfere with the opponents movement or seize him or her by grabbing a part of his or her body with the performers hands.


*Ppaegi (&#48764;&#44592* Pulling out
A technique of pulling oneself free when part of the defender's body is seized by the opponent
They are the skills executed by twisting or turning the joint and pulling it out when the defenders wrist or ankle is grabbed by the assailant.

Sound like elements of grappling to me... You can check out the photo references on the website too.


----------



## skribs (Jun 11, 2014)

MAist, do you have a link the to site you were looking at?


----------



## MAist25 (Jun 11, 2014)

World Taekwondo Headquarters


----------



## WaterGal (Jun 11, 2014)

Interesting discussion here.  I wonder how much of the differences we're all seeing have to do with local norms, particularly to do with the particular Korean teachers that came to your particular area to open a school.

None of the KKW-style schools I'm familiar with teach any significant amount of grappling as part of their TKD program. If they teach it at all, they offer it as a separate program (Hapkido, Judo, etc) or class. 

But I think that's because the Korean teachers that came/come to this area were basically all ex-sparring champions, K-Tigers, etc, so they naturally have a strong sport focus.  (I'm not sure if that's just chance, if having sport credentials helps you with the visa process, or what.) So their school and the teachers they taught are going to be that way too.

In other places, the teachers that immigrated there might have had a different focus and teach different things.


----------



## skribs (Jun 11, 2014)

WaterGal, I think what you're seeing is a lot of the differences between schools.

When I did TKD as a kid, it was mainly techniques, forms, and sparring.  We learned a few self defense techniques here or there, but they were kind of extra instead of standard curriculum.

There was another school that a friend went to that was basically a dance studio (you didn't start sparring until brown belt).  It was all technique and forms.

If you go to a school where the focus is on the art aspect (poomsae and techniques) and/or the sport aspect (point sparring, maybe breaking), chances are you won't see much grappling.  That doesn't mean that TKD does not have grappling techniques.  Just like how if I go to the produce store and they don't have apples, it doesn't mean that apples aren't fruit.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 11, 2014)

msmitht said:


> Is my opinion. We have very different ideas of what grappling is. Maybe I should have said effective offensive/defensive grappling with the intent to engage your partner by clinching, taking them down, achieving a dominant position and either apply a submission or beating them til they give up or are unconsciois.That is how I define grappling. Does that work for you?



You're welcome to define words in whatever way makes you happy. But I do think it's a lot easier to communicate if we all use the standard definitions, rather than inventing our own. After all, mumble dogface banana patch ramalamadingdong. Don't you agree?

And as it turns out, according to a link MAist25 just posted (from the KKW itself) you're wrong about there not being grappling within KKW TKD too.

Or are you going to insist that you're right and the KKW is wrong?


----------



## skribs (Jun 11, 2014)

Maybe the KKW doesn't know what they teach?

(Says the devil's advocate who's grasping for straws).


> You're welcome to define words in whatever way makes you happy. But I do  think it's a lot easier to communicate if we all use the standard  definitions, rather than inventing our own. After all, mumble dogface  banana patch ramalamadingdong. Don't you agree?



Much better wording than what I said!


----------

