# Whats missing...what should be taken away...



## tigdra (Aug 13, 2009)

I wanted to get other individual's point of view on what they believe is either missing in kenpo or what they believe is a waste of time (or something that can be done better) to learn. Some of the missing things we have seen with kenpo 5.0 and SL4...feel free to talk about them and other offshoots. My goal in this post is to see what other individuals feel to be a complete martial art/defensive style. 

I'm not trying to start an all-out war between the traditional martial artist and the evolutionary ones. So lets play nice boys and girls.

I'll start....Well the thing which I've been hearing alot on are "pressure points." So let me start of by saying I do belive in pressure points and their effectiveness. I believe it is important to learn and use pressure points and I further believe that there are correct situations in which to implement pressure points into a response while there are other situations which I don't feel that pressure point fighting is the route I would take. 

My old teacher in the 80's and 90's (which passed away) taught us both kenpo and other things (which included ground work and pressure point techniques). Our belt requirements was kenpo but our training classes included all sort of training.  

So I do believe that kenpoist should include pressure point training but I don't believe that it should be one of the main focus of the style. Remember everything in moderation. 

Well to wrap it up...I don't train in your school (who ever may read and respond to this) neither do I know your curriculum so I am not trying to attack your school...your teacher...or you...I'm merely stating that if you don't have pressure points in your system I believe that learning them would be a great tool and If your art relies on pressure points I believe that you should diversify because while some situations may be perfect for pressure points others could end up getting you hurt.

Hope to hear you thoughts on my thoughts and anything else you believe should be different or added in kenpo....thanks in advanced


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## mwd0818 (Aug 13, 2009)

This could be a hornet's nest of a thread, but at the same time, could work out well.

My two cents is that overall, the system offers a complete foundation, but learning the 3 short forms and 6 long ones, the various sets, the 154 techniques and the extensions will do nothing if you are simply memorizing the movements.  It is up to the instructor and the students to explore applications, theories, methodologies, structures, timing, pattern, reactions, etc.  If you can't do that, then you will find the system seriously lacking.  If you can, then you will find that the system helps address a myriad of real defense possibilities.

It's not the quantity of techniques, but the quality by which they are taught, reviewed and explored.

So, what's missing?  Unfortunately, all too often, it's qualified instructors.


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## marlon (Aug 13, 2009)

In shaolin kempo I see a lack of conceptual analysis broAd base to help with depth of understanding, a focused emphasis on structural alignment and generally a focused intention to study the material in depth...and I would agree pressure point teachings and I would add a health / healing focus.
The pressure point thng can get too volumous, so there is a caution to such an addition
what could be taken away is some of the set material in terms of defenses against weapons and grabs. The combinations and animals and forms could cover most f these thngs if taught
more comceptually and with focused effective practice
oh, he psychology of confrontation is mssing in most curricullums as well
well that it for now
Marlon


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## mwd0818 (Aug 13, 2009)

Shaolin Kempo traded depth of knowledge for amount of material . . . it takes some work, but you can find a lot of answers in the forms and Combinations that are out there.


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## mwd0818 (Aug 13, 2009)

marlon said:


> In shaolin kempo I see a lack of conceptual analysis broAd base to help with depth of understanding, a focused emphasis on structural alignment and generally a focused intention to study the material in depth...[/quote
> 
> I think a big part of this goes back to the instructors


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## HKphooey (Aug 13, 2009)

Whats missing...
Open minds...

what should be taken away...
loyalty to one belief or way of thinking...


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## marlon (Aug 13, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> Shaolin Kempo traded depth of knowledge for amount of material . . . it takes some work, but you can find a lot of answers in the forms and Combinations that are out there.



Agreed. It does have to be a trade, however.  Unfortunately it is not built in to the paradigm of shaolin kempo to focus on in depth analysis. Of course individual insrtuctor can bring more to their students by going deeper themselves bit it does not seem to be an inherent part of it.  Although, at least it seems to be changing
Marlon


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## mwd0818 (Aug 14, 2009)

Marlon - I hope that one day we have the chance to train together.  It's a slow process, but I'm trying to take the same analytical approach taught to me in American Kenpo to the mass of material that sits in the Shaolin Kempo curriculum.  A lot disappears, and a lot gets better . . .


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 14, 2009)

According the "Encyclopedia of Kenpo" by SGM Ed Parker, American Kenpo is _an updated and all-inclusive version of Kenpo, based on logic and practicality, that has been designed to cope with the mode of fighting prevalent on our streets today. _

I can't speak to the other forms of kenpo, but that pretty much says to me that as a practicioner of American Kenpo I should constantly adapt and improve my training to stay ahead of the curve. 

I think people in general feel the need to have things remain static in order to feel comfortable and feel like they have a firm grasp and understanding. When you go _changing_ things, people naturally become uncomfortable. That's a fact. 

So, what escapes most and leads to the bickering of what form or style of kenpo is the best and what-have-you is the fact that _Kenpo_ *is not meant to be static becuase **it is an abstract*...it's a living, breathing art that grows and adapts to the environment. 

Of course, everyone's environment is different, so everyone's kenpo is a little different...in execution at least, but the underlying principles upon which they are based should be the same. Why? Because it either works or it doesn't. In my world, if it works then it's kenpo. LOL It's also a very individual thing...which also separates it from other arts. We do not do as the instructor does per se, but instead apply the principles taught by the instructor as they pertain to us. In short, everyone is anatomically and physiologically different...no two of us are the same, so how can one expect the same "technique" to work the same for a 230lb man who is 6'3" and a woman who is 100lbs and 4'9"? 

...it's simply silly to try and paint the art with an all-inclusive broad brush and any way other than whether or not the practical, logical, and scientific principles are being applied...or more simply, does it work? 

I attained my initial rank in American Kenpo, but have also studied Chinese Kenpo, and am currently studying Mr. Speakman's 5.0. I've gathered useful info from all of my studies, even from other arts like TKD and Jiu-Jitsu. I've taken what worked for me and discarded some things along the way, buty at the end of the day, it's all mine...and it's *my kenpo*. 

That's really the underlying reason why you have so many approaches as those who have studied long and hard usually put their own spin on what they teach.

Your quesion is actually an individual thing, and not applicable to entire systems I think. They all have much to contribute. It's up to you to take what you need, unless you plan on instructing in a particular system. 

So...in answer to your question in regards to "kenpo systems"...Nothing is missing and nothing should be taken away. In regards to *your kenpo*, it's up to you to decide what's missing, and/or what should be taken away.


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## MJS (Aug 14, 2009)

What should be added/taken away?  Oh boy, thats a loaded question! LOL!  Seriously though, this question is similar to ones that I've asked back in the day, and the replies I got were rather interesting.  Of course, while we only know the Kenpo that we do, and not what anyone else is doing, the usual reply, and I'm surprised that I dont see it yet, is.....Just because something is lacking in YOUR Kenpo, doesnt mean its lacking in MY Kenpo.  In other words, I used to say there was no grappling, others would say there is.  What you can do standing, you can do laying.  Well, maybe it is MY Kenpo thats missing something, but from the Kenpo that I've seen, I havent seen the grappling.  

Personally, I think that Jeff Speakman is heading in the right direction, although some may disagree.  While I'm not advocating spending time rolling on the ground, looking to submit someone, I think that if the ideas and concepts from BJJ or any ground art, are applied to Kenpo, it would better your chances of survival on the ground.  I'm not sure what the ground fighting was like back in the early days with Mr. Parker, so maybe this type of stuff was there but over time it went away.

I'd like to see people be more open to other ideas.  In other words, I've debated with some, who shall remain nameless, partly because they're no longer on this forum, who were so dead-set in their ways, it was amazing.  Hey, to each his own though.

I think Celtic said it best with his closing line....its up to us to decide what we want to do with OUR Kenpo.  

Kenpo is my base art, the one that I've done the longest, and I plan on continuing my journey.  While I'm always open to advice, and IMO, everyone should be, in the end, its me that has to make the techs. work, so even if someone is so deadset in saying that this will work, well, thats fine and dandy.  If it works for you, wonderful, but I wanna make sure it works for me.   I cross train in Arnis and BJJ.  Some may say that I don't need to, and again, thats fine.  The arts I do blend very well and work for me.  

My goal is to make MY Kenpo the best it can be, for me.  If its different than someone else, thats fine too.


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## marlon (Aug 14, 2009)

mwd0818 i hope we get the opportunity to train together...or rather that we can make an oppiotunity to work together.

MJS i agree it is about what we make of our kempo and i hope this discussion brings to light what some of us are doing that may be different and help everyone ...evolve thier kem/npo.  I am always looking at ways to improve my understanding and practice, MT in general has beren a great help and with everyone discussing what they are doing with their kem/npo and why in this thread i know i will benefit

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (Aug 14, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> Marlon - I hope that one day we have the chance to train together. It's a slow process, but I'm trying to take the same analytical approach taught to me in American Kenpo to the mass of material that sits in the Shaolin Kempo curriculum. A lot disappears, and a lot gets better . . .


 
it can be frustrating at times but enjoy the process.

Marlon


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## mwd0818 (Aug 14, 2009)

marlon said:


> it can be frustrating at times but enjoy the process.
> 
> Marlon



Once I stop enjoying the process, I stop the training.  So far, I only get myself deeper every day!


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## LawDog (Aug 16, 2009)

In most of the Kempo/Kenpo systems of modern day there seems to be an overload of redundent material, 100 of this, 100 of that, forms that are a mile long. There seems to be more of an emphisis on memory than creating a desired product, your type of fighter.
I would / have removed this overload and have put into there place application drills for both a fixed pattern and free flow response.
Memory and reaction do not work the same while under stressful situations.
:ultracool


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## LawDog (Aug 16, 2009)

P.S. A little of subject here.
Shaolin Kempo/Kenpo does have the 'heavy thought" engrained into it. It just depends on who you have trained with,
*do as I say & this is how "I" do it. One cannot self correct.
*this is how and this is why. One can self correct.
:ultracool


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## Hudson69 (Aug 16, 2009)

It has been a long time since I was in a (Parker style) Kenpo dojo.  I did make it as far as 3rd Brown back in the 90's and as a comparison to some of the other systems I have studied I would like to see break-falls and rolls added to the training, know how to fall is always good and maybe enough grappling (focussing on escapes) would be a good addition as well seeing as how many BJJ and MMA fighters there are out there now.  Thats what I would add anyway.


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## tigdra (Aug 16, 2009)

I'm in the process of developing my own style. I enjoy the delivery process that kenpo has. I enjoy the foundation it creates along with the perspective it gives an individual. I am a 4th degree black belt in kenpo and I have my own ideas on what I want to add and subtract. But until I register or finalize my material I'm a little hesitant on giving too much information....I'll tell you this much I'm in agreeance with the fact that some of the forms aren't necessary, that some style of non-sport ground fighting should be learnt and that healing arts should be included (I believe these are thoughts that we have had) but my style is an all encompassing way of life...not a religion..but a manner in which to view life. I'm thinking way outside the box..... I'm sure others have already started or journeyed through this path but based on my research through the past years, I have not seen anyone who offers this unique blend of martial and life necessary skills. 

To give you an example of what I mean think of martial artist meets boy scouts (but without the past controversies..lol) meets healing arts meets a whole other amount of life experiences and lessons to make a whole individual. A cultivation of skill of the mind and body. 

I know that the curriculum is probably going to be exhaustingly long and that is what I am working out right now. 

I have studied at several schools and to tell you te truth the one's I see have the least turnover and have a much higher level of involvement are those which interact with their students in and out of the gym. 

For example at my present teacher's school we are in the middle of training for a tournament, triathlon (swimming, biking, running) and on the sometimes we will meet up to do other activities such as demonstartions, wall climbing, etc. 

It is great to be able to teach a student how to defend themselves but I think the experience is so much more fulfilling when it branches out to many other activities and experiences. 

Well so I contribute to the thread I'll give a contribution.....I believe that kenpo as well as some other styles lack excursions...of course this would be an adult oriented activity...for example I went to china with my present instructor and I think taking your future black belts to japan, hawaii or china. Not only to learn the defensive aspects of a style but the cultural connections that came with it.


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2009)

marlon said:


> MJS i agree it is about what we make of our kempo and i hope this discussion brings to light what some of us are doing that may be different and help everyone ...evolve thier kem/npo. I am always looking at ways to improve my understanding and practice, MT in general has beren a great help and with everyone discussing what they are doing with their kem/npo and why in this thread i know i will benefit
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Yes, it would make for good discussion, if people wanted to talk about what they do to supplement what they feel is missing, could be added, etc.   I may as well start. 

Well, as I said in my other post, I crosstrain in BJJ and Arnis.  IMHO, I think that if we want to focus on a particular thing, it makes more sense to me, to go to a place that focuses just on that one thing.  While Arnis has empty hand techniques, it is a FMA, and like all others, they do focus on weapons work.  So, I like to view how Kenpo and Arnis both address weapons.  I've mixed and matched, finding things that I like and those that I don't.  Studying a weapon based art, allows you a more in-depth look at how weapons can be used.

As for the BJJ....the grapplers strong point is the clinch and the ground.  Therefore, I like to look at how the grappler operates, and how I can adapt my Kenpo to that.  If I can make the techs. in Kenpo stronger, against a grappler, ie: the takedown/tackle techs., then against someone who isn't a grappler, it should be much easier.


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2009)

LawDog said:


> In most of the Kempo/Kenpo systems of modern day there seems to be an overload of redundent material, 100 of this, 100 of that, forms that are a mile long. There seems to be more of an emphisis on memory than creating a desired product, your type of fighter.
> I would / have removed this overload and have put into there place application drills for both a fixed pattern and free flow response.
> Memory and reaction do not work the same while under stressful situations.
> :ultracool


 
Funny you should say that, because I've thought the same thing, and I've had people ask why there are X number of techs. for the same attack.  Of course, the line of thinking is...lets take a double lapel grab.  You have a tech. that addresses the attacker pulling you in, ie: Destructive Twins (Parker) and one that addresses the same attack, with more of a push, ie: Kimono Grab (Tracy).  

So, now we apply that same thinking to punches, and the list grows more.  Bearhugs is another.

So, if I'm reading what you're saying correctly, it seems that you do need to have 100 variations to address every attack.  Then again, when the heat is on, its going to take some time to process the attack, what tech. to do, do the tech., etc.


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## Xinglu (Aug 16, 2009)

MJS said:


> Funny you should say that, because I've thought the same thing, and I've had people ask why there are X number of techs. for the same attack.  Of course, the line of thinking is...lets take a double lapel grab.  You have a tech. that addresses the attacker pulling you in, ie: Destructive Twins (Parker) and one that addresses the same attack, with more of a push, ie: Kimono Grab (Tracy).
> 
> So, now we apply that same thinking to punches, and the list grows more.  Bearhugs is another.
> 
> So, if I'm reading what you're saying correctly, it seems that you do need to have 100 variations to address every attack.  Then again, when the heat is on, its going to take some time to process the attack, what tech. to do, do the tech., etc.



This is why learning the principles FIRST is important.  If the techniques STEMS from principles then they are easy to recall under pressure, instead of principles STEMMING from techniques as I see all to often today.


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## mwd0818 (Aug 17, 2009)

MJS said:


> Funny you should say that, because I've thought the same thing, and I've had people ask why there are X number of techs. for the same attack.  Of course, the line of thinking is...lets take a double lapel grab.  You have a tech. that addresses the attacker pulling you in, ie: Destructive Twins (Parker) and one that addresses the same attack, with more of a push, ie: Kimono Grab (Tracy).
> 
> So, now we apply that same thinking to punches, and the list grows more.  Bearhugs is another.
> 
> So, if I'm reading what you're saying correctly, it seems that you do need to have 100 variations to address every attack.  Then again, when the heat is on, its going to take some time to process the attack, what tech. to do, do the tech., etc.



I think it goes back to one of the key differences between Tracy and Parker Kenpo, and can even be reduced further.  Tracy Kenpo, with several hundred techniques, attempts to analyze every situation with a set technique.  EPAK reduced this and requires a little bit of analysis to find out how to deal with attack X, because it is somwhere in between defenses A and B.

Neither approach is wrong, it's just do I want to make a student think and figure things out on his or her own, or so I want to let the student have an answer for the majority of questions.  The real problem is not in the reptition, but in memorization of techniques for memorizations sake.  Too many kenpoists move through the motions, and don't understand the reasons behind them.  That's where the problem is in the hundreds of techniques.


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