# What can the police do to get respect back?



## jetboatdeath (Mar 12, 2008)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-03-12-mom-on-trial_N.htm

Look at the comments posted at the bottom......

What can the police do to get their respect back?
I remember as a kid waving at the police they would always wave back, now if you wave you are more than likely to get pulled over.
I can not remember the last time I saw a patrol car in the neighborhood. But I can tell you were all the speed traps are from work too home.
Yes they have a tough job, but wouldnt it be a little easier if they would take some time to reconnect with the community they serve?


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## Drac (Mar 12, 2008)

Leaving you kids locked in a car for* ANY* lenght of time* IS* child endangerment...I have written citations for such an infraction but* NEVER* arrested...


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## jetboatdeath (Mar 12, 2008)

That was not the question that debate is in another thread.

But what I can take from your reply is&#8230;.
Don&#8217;t listen to the complaint and don&#8217;t answer questions posed to you.
Not sure if that is going help much.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 12, 2008)

I agree with Drac concerning the child it can be seen as child endangerment because the parent left the child alone which means and it has happen where thieves have stolen cars and the child were in the back seat. 
As for the question how can the Police earn respect back. I think times have changed and a few "dirty" cops and the media has really hurt the image of what a police officer is and does. For me Police in general will always have my respect for putting their lives on the line even if a couple of rotten eggs are in the basket.


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## jks9199 (Mar 12, 2008)

jetboatdeath said:


> That was not the question that debate is in another thread.
> 
> But what I can take from your reply is&#8230;.
> Don&#8217;t listen to the complaint and don&#8217;t answer questions posed to you.
> Not sure if that is going help much.


Well, it seems to me that you're asking the wrong people.

The cops are doing their jobs.  Unfortunately, society over the last couple of decades has become ever-decreasingly tolerant of actually being told that they have to obey the same laws and play by the same rules that they want to impose on someone else.  I always get a kick out of the results of targeted speed enforcement as a response to community complaints.  Somehow, it always seems like we write more tickets to the folks who live there and complained than people passing through...  :shrug:

I'm fortunate.  I work in a jurisdiction where we enjoy a generally good relationship with the community.  But they still don't like it when we're telling them to quiet their party down, or giving them a ticket -- or, even worse, arresting them for something.  I had someone tell me that they would no longer donate to the Police Association after I gave them a ticket...  H'mm... why were they donating in the first place?  It wasn't (apparently) to support the activities of the association, which include sponsoring community youth sports teams and lots of other stuff.  As has been said before -- if I wanted to be liked, I'd have been a fireman (aka foundation saver).  

Maybe the question shouldn't be "how can the police regain respect" but "why doesn't the public expect themselves to respect the laws?"


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## jetboatdeath (Mar 12, 2008)

I see your points, I have never complained (to the officer) if I got busted for speeding. But the attitude some of the police have (speaking only for the ones that I have dealt with) seem to be well mean.
Two examples of recent pull overs I have had.
#1
A friend of mine and I were going to get snacks from a gas station. 
I got pulled over because my sticker expired (I have no issue for being pulled over)
The officer explained to me why I was pulled over I said I know I just have not had time to get it replaced
He said Thats no excuse 
I said I know
About this time another police car pulls up.
The officer then asked me to step out of the car and he proceeded to frisk me.
Why? After he was done he called in my info and started talking to the other officer.
Any luck tonight? he says
Nope I cant seem to get any one for any thing tonight says the other.

#2 

Got pulled over for a crack in my wind shield.
So I pull over and stop.
Officer on the bull horn I said pull over
I looked back to see what he meant as my tires were on the curb.
He gets out slams his door comes up to my truck yelling WHAT THE HELL PART OF PULL OVER DONT YOU UNDERSTAND
My three year old daughter is in tears now.
He tells me I was pulled over for having a cracked windshield but he is also ticketing me for not having a seat belt on.
I look down and see that I do have one on and did when I was driving.
So I said But Officer I was and still am wearing a seat belt
He replies Who the hell are they going to believe me or you
I went home and called the Chief he looked at the tape and called me back.
He made this officer say he was sorry I was having a bad day
I asked him to drop the ticket he said he cant.
I fought it in court. But only after I asked for the tape for evidence, boy did they drop that case like it was on fire.
What happened to the pleasant officer in that case ? Nothing  well he had to say he was sorry


Now am I a hardened criminal that needed this abuse, two traffic offences in 15 years is all thats on my record.
Why am I expected to show respect to someone who shows me none?
Yes respect the laws I instill this in my children. But it sure was hard to explain to my daughter that a man she was taught to respect was not as she put it a jerk.
It seems that if you are breaking a law sometimes it is hard for the officer to distinguish the difference between a speeding violation and a cross state car chase.
These stories are not made up they can be confirmed by another member on this site.
Just like a story here in Illinois, police in police cars are turning up on speeding cameras. It was proven and verified by the city that the officers were not in the line of duty. they were just speeding and they were ticketed. The debate? The officers say that they will pay them because the city owns the police cars. So an officer breaks the law and is not respecting the law but we should?
These are not single cases, like I said look at the posts on the link 4 pages of people saying the same thing.


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## jetboatdeath (Mar 12, 2008)

Sorry not just in Illinois...

ROCKVILLE, Md.   No matter what the cameras say, some drivers are refusing to pay dozens of $40 speeding fines.

   Who? Police officers.

   In the last eight months of 2007, Montgomery County's new speed cameras recorded 224 cases in which police vehicles were recorded traveling more than 10 mph over the speed limit, according to department records.

   Supervisors dismissed 76 of those citations after determining the officers were responding to calls or had valid reasons to break the speed limit.

   But that left 148 who didn't have that excuse, and about two-thirds of those citations haven't been paid, said police Lt. Paul Starks.

   The police union says officers shouldn't pay because the citations are issued to the owner of a vehicle, in this case the county, and not to the driver.

   Police Chief Thomas Manger doesn't buy that argument.

   ``We are not above the law,'' Manger said. ``It is imperative that the police department hold itself to the same standards that we're holding the public to.''

   Manger said officers who continue to ignore citations might be disciplined.

So only 2/3 of the officers say they are above the law...... 
Again I ask what can they do? You said ask John Q why he doesn't respect the law i say ask these officers why they don't.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 12, 2008)

As a trans-Atlantic observer, I can say that I sympathise greatly with some of the posts above from those who have suffered undeserved indignities at the hands of those who supposedly are there to enforce the law for the benefit of all.  

American police have a *terrible* public image even in other countries e.g. here in Britain,  abuse of authority by mirror-shaded-hicktown-sheriffs is considered to be a commonplace

However, against that has to be balanced that we've had two of our fellow forumites, who also happen to be police officers, give their usual intelligent and balanced points of view of what the 'other side' of the equation looks like.  I have a good deal of respect for *Drac* and *jks* and have to assume that as 'insiders' they know what they're talking about - after all neither of them are rookies, they've 'been around' and seen a lot.

So which point-of-view is the accurate one?  

From so many thousands of miles away, seeing things only through the distorted lens of the media, I can't say with any accuracy.  

I'm sure that tales of police mis-application of their role could abound - after all, bad news drives out good very readily.  Such stories erode the respect for the police, it is true and it is not unjustified that they be told; for accountability is the flip-side of the coin.  However, people should be more aware of the fact that nearly all police activities and their effectiveness are unreported and unwitnessed.  How many crimes are prevented by the mere presence of the police?  We don't know.  That doesn't mean that the officers should not receive due respect for fulfilling one of their primary roles - deterrence.

Being English, I have no axe to grind one way or the other in this so my curiosity is genuine when I re-iterate the OP - what can police do to improve the deserved respect that they seldom receive?


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## grydth (Mar 12, 2008)

What could the cop who tried to frame you and harassed you with your child present do to get respect back? Probably nothing. An officer who would do that does not belong on the street, should not have a uniform and a gun, and should not be paid by the public. Any department who allows an officer on the street when they know he's making up phony citations has a major problem, and at greater than street level.

But, what can the police in general do to regain my respect? That answer, too, is nothing - - - but it is because they have not lost it. Not doubting your word about these individuals for a second, but the misdeeds of a couple officers do not discredit the tens of thousands of brave LEOs out there. I just do not subscribe to that way of thinking. 

We had a thread about a Marine allegedly tossing a puppy off a cliff, and some would blame the entire Corps. Um, no. Another thread starter opined that one wacky court suit being commenced made all courts look "pathetic".......sure, right. Can't we condemn the bad apples, which exist in all trades, without going after the huge majority of decent folks in all trades?


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## jetboatdeath (Mar 12, 2008)

Again i show police respect always have, always will, and I teach my children the same.
But when the officer shows no respect for the law or the offender why should they expect it back?*
I respect ALL officers for the job they do there is a reason I don't do it.
I also respect ALL garbage men another job I would not do. But I have also had conversations with the garbage man and asked him not to toss my cans in the street after he is done. It has never happened again.
Respect goes both ways. Are police help to a higher standard than garbage men... YES. Can one officer spoil the rep of all, I don't think so but when stories like this pop all over the nation they can. 
I have been pulled over by officers who were nice people I would invite to my house for a beer. But I am sorry to say it is not the norm. 
To the two officers.. have you ever sped in your police car or personal car? I am sure you have.Have you ever got out of it because being an officer? I am sure you have. 
Why should you not have gotten a ticket when in the same case I would have?

*(that can go either way who was the sherif down south who after the offender shot 3 officers and a police dog was himself shot 68 times, the media asked the sherif why the offended was shot 68 times he replied "Because thats all the rounds we had" the officers showed this scum bag ALL the respect he deserved)


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Mar 13, 2008)

jetboatdeath said:


> Respect goes both ways. Are police help to a higher standard than garbage men... YES. Can one officer spoil the rep of all, I don't think so but when stories like this pop all over the nation they can.



I was just on a panel of law enforcement officers speaking with a Journalism student, and this subject was discussed.

Part of the problem is that, as even she says, "if it bleeds, it leads."  News stories of "bad" cops always come up because they make headlines.  How often do you hear the everyday stories of cops doing a good job.  Almost never.  So what is the common perception that develops:  that all cops are bad, or are waiting for their opportunity to be bad.



			
				Sukerkin said:
			
		

> American police have a terrible public image even in other countries e.g. here in Britain, abuse of authority by mirror-shaded-hicktown-sheriffs is considered to be a commonplace



I'm curious.  Where do you guys get you image of American Police?


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## Sukerkin (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi Kempo

I didn't make clear I think that what I was intimating was that such a view of the American police was a stereotypical one that, in large part arises, from fictional or near fictional tales retold and retold via the media and the Net (hence my use of the phrase "mirror-shaded-hicktown-sheriffs" to indicate a cliche).


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## Archangel M (Mar 13, 2008)

Another sob story from an unknown person who didnt like getting a ticket or pulled over. Now its an issue of how do "cops" get their respect back.

Even if this STORY was verifiable the question should be how do "your cops" get their respect back. Something people have to realize is that all cops are not created equal. Just like your small town in the sticks is different from a major metro area so are the cops. You are going to get WIDE variations in LE agencies. From the 2 cops and the Chief in some hick burg. To highly trained and respectful oranizations in others (which you will NEVER see on the news). To outright corruption agency wide, that draw FBI attention.


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## Drac (Mar 13, 2008)

jetboatdeath said:


> But what I can take from your reply is&#8230;.
> Don&#8217;t listen to the complaint and don&#8217;t answer questions posed to you.


 
I listen to the ALL the  complaints and reply the best that I can..The LAW is the LAW...



jetboatdeath said:


> Not sure if that is going help much


 
Sure it will..People will *STOP* leaving their kids in their cars....There was a recent car theft here ..The owner stepped only 10 steps away from his vehicle to drop of DVD's in the return slot..The perps ran up slim-jimmed the door and were gone in about *10-15 seconds*...The car was found in the inner-city..Can you imagine IF there would have been a child in the car????


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## punisher73 (Mar 13, 2008)

You can't change the public's image of what we do.  There are those who will hate us no matter what.  There are those who will love us no matter what.  There are those that will judge their whole opinion of LEO's based on their one or two experiences good or bad.  There are those that will base their opinion of THAT officer based on their own experience.

None of that will change, no matter how many news stories there are or how much money we spend on a PR campaign.

I tell the guys I used to train, "You carry the sins of every officer on your badge".  You will be judged by what other officers do, whether you like it or not.

You CAN change one person at a time though.  I have had many people tell me after dealing with them.  I used to think all cops were jerks, but you're different.  And I've had others even when being polite and professional tell me what a jerk I am and how they thought police were different.

At the end of the day you go home to your loved ones and know that you did the best you could do and let a Higher Authority hold you accountable and judge you for how you treated the people under your watch and care.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 13, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> At the end of the day you go home to your loved ones and know that you did the best you could do and let a Higher Authority hold you accountable and judge you for how you treated the people under your watch and care.


 
A very good post *Punisher* but I thought that your last there was a prime example of the kind of attitude that will naturally generate respect in and of itself.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 13, 2008)

jetboatdeath said:


> Sorry not just in Illinois...
> 
> ROCKVILLE, Md.  No matter what the cameras say, some drivers are refusing to pay dozens of $40 speeding fines.
> 
> ...


 

I understand that there are times the police speed.

I understand there are times they use their lights to get through an intersection and then turn them off.

I also understand that there are some police just as in any job who abuse the capabilities of the position for their own gain. Getting home to see a GF or wife. Going to lunch. I have followed some in my area as I was having a problem years ago and was documenting issues. 

Yesterday an ambulance used its lights so it could make a left had turn into a right hand turn only entrance and then turn off its lights proceed to the next exit and not turn on its lights back on and exit back onto the road. This could have been just trying to get turned around, but wiht in 300 yards was a left hand turn light. This could have been an abortive call. But as I passed by the drive he was laughing at the back up he had caused. If I was not have dead from this flew and just trying to get to the doctors, I would have tracked down the company and filed a complaint and asked them to show the aborted call. 

The issue is that the few that make the press and the news ruin it for many.


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## jetboatdeath (Mar 13, 2008)

I think maybe police have to much gray area. If you pull someone over for going 5 over, what are the determining factors if one guy gets a ticket or not? 
I think if the law was pull over everyone speeding and ticket them all would be on a level field. It would take all questions of the stop out. 
I am sure the officers have heard it all.. But if every one got the same treatment we could not gripe.
And if an officer is caught committing a crime they should be gone. There is an officer here in Chicago that was busted smoking pot; he is on PAID leave, why is he not fired. Politicians in Chicago have won elections running on the base of cleaning up police corruption. The current commissioner used that as one of his platforms. So saying that its only a few is not being honest. 
As I have said before I dont care if I get pulled over EVERY TIME I HAVE I HAVE BROKEN A LAW. I am not anti cop. All I am saying is there seems to be a problem and was wondering what could be done. I have given examples of officers who have broken laws and just said well so what. I do think there needs to be more coverage for police that do great jobs. Hell I think there needs to be more coverage when I do a good job. I keep the computer operations of the hospital going day in and day out, but let one server fail and all that is forgotten and it is the entire department that gets the bad rep. I think that is the same for every job, the difference is that the police are in the public eye and should be because we pay them.
I like cops we need cops but I think the cops should be held AT LEAST to the same standard as we are.


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## jetboatdeath (Mar 13, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Another sob story from an unknown person who didnt like getting a ticket or pulled over. Now its an issue of how do "cops" get their respect back.
> 
> Even if this STORY was verifiable the question should be how do "your cops" get their respect back. Something people have to realize is that all cops are not created equal. Just like your small town in the sticks is different from a major metro area so are the cops. You are going to get WIDE variations in LE agencies. From the 2 cops and the Chief in some hick burg. To highly trained and respectful oranizations in others (which you will NEVER see on the news). To outright corruption agency wide, that draw FBI attention.


 
Who likes getting pulled over? Show of hands..... 
So from my STORY you would have not complained and just taken this with a grain of salt? What do you do for a living? Should it be news worthy every time you do "something good"?

Archangle didn't spill his whiteout today NEWS AT 11:00..... please


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## jks9199 (Mar 13, 2008)

jetboatdeath said:


> I think maybe police have to much gray area. If you pull someone over for going 5 over, what are the determining factors if one guy gets a ticket or not?
> I think if the law was pull over everyone speeding and ticket them all would be on a level field. It would take all questions of the stop out.
> I am sure the officers have heard it all.. But if every one got the same treatment we could not gripe.


Zero tolerance approaches aren't popular, for a good reason.  A cop can listen to a person, and decide that there was a decent justification for something, or at least a reason to exercise some discretion.  Otherwise, where do you draw a line?  Let's consider speed cameras: no discretion, and folks just love 'em, right?


> And if an officer is caught committing a crime they should be gone. There is an officer here in Chicago that was busted smoking pot; he is on PAID leave, why is he not fired. Politicians in Chicago have won elections running on the base of cleaning up police corruption. The current commissioner used that as one of his platforms. So saying that its only a few is not being honest.



He's probably on paid leave because he hasn't been convicted yet, and because the internal investigation is ongoing.  You also may not hear the outcome of that internal investigation; it's a personell matter.  Or would you like all your personell records from your job to be published in the papers?


> As I have said before I dont care if I get pulled over EVERY TIME I HAVE I HAVE BROKEN A LAW. I am not anti cop. All I am saying is there seems to be a problem and was wondering what could be done. I have given examples of officers who have broken laws and just said well so what. I do think there needs to be more coverage for police that do great jobs. Hell I think there needs to be more coverage when I do a good job. I keep the computer operations of the hospital going day in and day out, but let one server fail and all that is forgotten and it is the entire department that gets the bad rep. I think that is the same for every job, the difference is that the police are in the public eye and should be because we pay them.
> I like cops we need cops but I think the cops should be held AT LEAST to the same standard as we are.


 
Cops are, in many ways, held to a higher standard than the general public.  Will you lose your job over a traffic ticket?  Are your family's finances subject to investigation?


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## Archangel M (Mar 13, 2008)

People have to understand the whole "paid suspension" "unpaid suspension" thing. Typically, when just accused or under investigation of wrongdoing the officer will be put on paid suspension. Once the investigation is done and formal charges have been filed then it becomes unpaid. just because some newspaper writes that a cop broke the law doesnt mean hes automatically fired or put on unpaid suspension.


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## thardey (Mar 13, 2008)

Situation #1

I got pulled over by a State Police who clocked me at 10 over on my motorcycle. By the time he turned around and pulled up behind me, I was off the motorcycle, helmet off, hands in sight, and the motorcycle shut down. He was very polite and asked why I was going so fast. I didn't have a good excuse so I didn't bother.

He let me off with a warning, and was very polite.

Situation #2

I got pulled over for 10 over in my truck by a small-town cop at about 1:00 AM. I had to drive for a little while before he pulled me over because there was no safe place to stop. I tapped my brakes and continued on at a slower pace. Eventually I stopped just inside of the city limit sign. He warned me about deer on the road and let me go. He was very polite.

Situation #3

I got pulled over for running a "stale yellow" (I didn't clear the intersection before it turned red.) I got pulled over. I thought I had cleared. I apologized. He let me go with a warning. He was very polite.

Situation #4
I got pulled over for 11 over in California. He gave me a ticket. He was very polite.

Situation #5

While at a local dance hall for my sister's 30th birthday, I had one drink early in the night, and then stayed with the party until 2:00 AM. While in there someone (I think it may have been my sister's ex-boyfriend) covered my license plate light with shoe polish, so it looked burned out. A policeman saw me leave the bar, and followed me. When he saw my light "out" he pulled me over. He asked how many drinks I had, and I told him "one, several hours ago." He suggested that I fix my light as soon as possible. He was very polite.

Shall I go on? I think is the only way to re-build respect for Police. But nobody's going to read a thread called "A policeman was polite to me today." Let alone run a news story on it.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 13, 2008)

Good to see some examples from the 'positive court' :tup:.


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## jetboatdeath (Mar 13, 2008)

thardey said:


> Situation #1
> 
> I got pulled over by a State Police who clocked me at 10 over on my motorcycle. By the time he turned around and pulled up behind me, I was off the motorcycle, helmet off, hands in sight, and the motorcycle shut down. He was very polite and asked why I was going so fast. I didn't have a good excuse so I didn't bother.
> 
> ...


 

I would read it... as i am sure alot of people would... 
I have also "cop" friends that I hang out with two are great drinking buddies. I address these issues with them all the time... they don't have an answer either...


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## jetboatdeath (Mar 13, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Zero tolerance approaches aren't popular, for a good reason. A cop can listen to a person, and decide that there was a decent justification for something, or at least a reason to exercise some discretion. Otherwise, where do you draw a line? Let's consider speed cameras: no discretion, and folks just love 'em, right?
> [/font]
> He's probably on paid leave because he hasn't been convicted yet, and because the internal investigation is ongoing. You also may not hear the outcome of that internal investigation; it's a personell matter. Or would you like all your personell records from your job to be published in the papers?
> 
> ...




No i wont loose my job for a traffic ticket? I would however if I broke hippa laws or violated the other terms.... We all have rules we must abide by....And what officers personal finance information is not public. As a public servent his pay is public info.


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## Archangel M (Mar 13, 2008)

He means will your finances as in what you buy or say, your wifes purchase of a new car, be investigated to see if you are on the take? Not your salary.


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## navyvetcv60 (Mar 13, 2008)

*What can the police do to get respect back?
First of all i want to thank DRAC for his honorable service to his community!!! You Sir in todays climate have a thankless job and I'm so glad there is people with  GOOD moral character to do this job.
If the cops want more of my respect I'd like to see all this political correctness in the police force  go away, quit treating criminals like bad little kid's, treat them like criminals, use your batons more often, make the bad guy fear the cops!!! they use to years ago before all this liberal political correctness, so go ahead crack some heads, break some noses, give these degenerate some tough love!!


*


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## jetboatdeath (Mar 13, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> He means will your finances as in what you buy or say, your wifes purchase of a new car, be investigated to see if you are on the take? Not your salary.


 
Ahh .....
If i was involved in a criminal activity yes....
Do they do this to every officer. If they do it is wrong....


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## jetboatdeath (Mar 13, 2008)

navyvetcv60 said:


> *What can the police do to get respect back?*
> *First of all i want to thank DRAC for his honorable service to his community!!! You Sir in todays climate have a thankless job and I'm so glad there is people with GOOD moral character to do this job.*
> *If the cops want more of my respect I'd like to see all this political correctness in the police force go away, quit treating criminals like bad little kid's, treat them like criminals, use your batons more often, make the bad guy fear the cops!!! they use to years ago before all this liberal political correctness, so go ahead crack some heads, break some noses, give these degenerate some tough love!!*


I beleive this just might work but think of all the threads that were started on here because some loud mouth punk got knocked around.......
Don't taze me bro.....


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## Empty Hands (Mar 14, 2008)

navyvetcv60 said:


> *If the cops want more of my respect I'd like to see all this political correctness in the police force  go away, quit treating criminals like bad little kid's, treat them like criminals, use your batons more often, make the bad guy fear the cops!!! they use to years ago before all this liberal political correctness, so go ahead crack some heads, break some noses, give these degenerate some tough love!!
> *



Let me guess: cops these days are infected with the mental disease of liberalism?

You know, has it ever struck you or made you wonder why crime was _more _prevalent than it is now back in your golden glory days of liberal (heh) baton beatings?


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## MJS (Mar 14, 2008)

IMO, the times have certainly changed.  It seems that at one point there was alot of respect, but lately, people don't seem to have any.  This could be for a number of reasons.  I certainly wouldn't lump every cop into the same group, as there are fantastic ones, and there are ones that use the badge as a power trip.

I've been stopped a few times, some were town officers and one was a State Trooper.  In those cases, everyone was respectful, there were no problems and no action taken, other than a verbal warning.  

Lately, here in CT., there have been a few cases that have been in the paper, in which officers have been found guilty of criminal activity.  I believe it is things like that, that make people lose respect.  Afterall, these are supposed to be the people that are upholding the law, not breaking it.

And of course, we have clips like that one that was posted of that officer yelling at a group of kids for skateboarding.  Again, things like that certainly don't help the reuptation of the LEOs thruout the world.


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## navyvetcv60 (Mar 14, 2008)

You know, has it ever struck you or made you wonder why crime was _more _prevalent than it is now back in your golden glory days of liberal (heh) baton beatings?[/quote]

I think you need to do your research, the percentage crime in the last 2 decade has out paced the population growth.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 14, 2008)

navyvetcv60 said:


> I think you need to do your research, the percentage crime in the last 2 decade has out paced the population growth.



Considering that population growth is in the range of 0.9%, I'm not terribly surprised.  That does absolutely nothing however to tell us what the crime rate was back in the 50's or 60's compared to today.

Were you unaware that crime rates fell dramatically in the 90's?


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## navyvetcv60 (Mar 15, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Considering that population growth is in the range of 0.9%, I'm not terribly surprised.  That does absolutely nothing however to tell us what the crime rate was back in the 50's or 60's compared to today.
> 
> Thank you for being humble enough to admit your wrong.
> 
> Were you unaware that crime rates fell dramatically in the 90's?



NO, Please refer me to your statistics  on this!! i would really like to see them.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 15, 2008)

As ever with statistics, it's better to get at the raw data and form your own opinion.

Here's a place to start:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

You have to bear in mind that even the collection of data is skewed to an extent by those who decide on the criteria (tho' there are techniques and precautions to prevent things getting too badly bent out of shape).

Having only a cursory loom look at the end-points, it would seem that the population has risen by 30% and the incidents of crime across the board by around 300%.  Now some of this will be down to increased reporting (especially in the trully appalling rape stats) and some is down to redefinition (as in some things are now criminal when before they were merely anti-social) but that's a pretty bad indictment of the system to my eyes.

Here's an articte from 'outside' that shows how stats are used to support a story:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/24/usa.andrewclark

It is what numbers you pick and how you present them that turns the raw data into information or mis-information depending on how you use it and the inate views of those reading it.

EDIT: I am surprised that I see so often the question along the lines of "show me your data" comes up so often on-line.  After all, the medium being used for communication is the biggest and most easily accessible data store on the planet.  It took me all of thirty seconds to pull up Google and create a search string.  As with statistics themselves the trick is then to winnow out the unbiased sources from the swathe of self-serving or badly done studies.  Try "crime rate USA" and see what comes out.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 15, 2008)

Interestingly enough, the same officer that ticketed Jetboat for not wearing his seatbelt when he claims to have been wearing it also Ticketed my Nephew for not wearing his... while he was parked in a parking space in front of his Dojo listening to the radio with the car off.

I really think these types of behaviors lend a lot of the public "disrespect" for the police as much as people just not wanting to follow the laws or do as they are told.  I've said it before, and I will say it again, I train with cops, and we hear it over and over, the general opinion they hold (at least here, I wont speak for anyone else) is that since 90% of the people they deal with are scum, so therefore if you arent a cop, you are either a scumbag, or a scumbag waiting to happen.  

Hearing that, how can one not hold a bit of contempt for the cops? I mean, If we are ALL badguys or potential badguys, then aren't they ALL *******s or Potential *******s?

What I think needs to happen is twofold, #1 the cops need to reconnect with the people and realize that we arent all bad people, and #2 the lawmakers need to stop micro-regulating everything in a lame attempt to turn the police into Revenue Generation machines.  (The latter is not the fault of the police, mind you, but since the cops are the "face" of the administration the people see, the people are of course going to blame them, even mistakenly.)


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## Empty Hands (Mar 15, 2008)

navyvetcv60 said:


> NO, Please refer me to your statistics  on this!! i would really like to see them.



OK, but first, where did that "humble enough to admit you're wrong" come from?  You have it in my quote, but I never said it, and certainly not in the post you quoted.

In any case, here is a confirmation of the US growth rate of 0.9% from the CIA world fact book, and here is a confirmation of the drop in crime rates during the nineties from the Department of Justice.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 15, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> I train with cops, and we hear it over and over, the general opinion they hold (at least here, I wont speak for anyone else) is that since 90% of the people they deal with are scum, so therefore if you arent a cop, you are either a scumbag, or a scumbag waiting to happen.


 
Oops, I wanna correct this statement... They dont SAY since 90% of the people they deal with are scum, therefore... they say that if you arent a cop, you are either a scumbag, or a scumbag waiting to happen... I'm making an assumption this belief comes from the fact that 90% of the people they deal with are scum.


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## Archangel M (Mar 15, 2008)

Generalizing about cops generalizing about people..seems a bit circular.


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## grydth (Mar 15, 2008)

Even as corrected, you can scarcely blame the public if they don't respect those specific guys. 

First because these LEOs will encounter other forms of life such as victims and innocent bystanders.... probably the huge majority of people they will see. Second, because there are crooked cops as well as civilian scumbags. Being a cop is no immunity to being a bad apple, in fact bad cops are rotten apples. 

Just as I do not condone the public disrespecting all cops because of a few bad ones, these cops you cite are just as bad attitude wise.

When cops view the people they are protecting - and who are paying them - as scumbags, there's a liklihood that this attitude will come out in their public actions..... which will lead some, as on this thread, to disrespect all cops.... and so on....its a mutually destructive and degenerative process of thoughlessness.


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## Archangel M (Mar 15, 2008)

The whole "all cops see are scumbags so they think everybody are scumbags" is based on lack of knowledge of most cops and what they do. If you are talking about cops working the "war zones" of an inner city perhaps there could be a touch of that. But most cops spend FAR more time dealing with victims of crime, "normal citizens" on traffic stops, vehicle breakdowns and traffic accidents, etc. If anything they spend a far greater percentage of time dealing with the normal than the scumbags. Its funny how cops are only there to "pick up the pieces" after a crime and "only deal with scumbags" all at the same time.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 15, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> The whole "all cops see are scumbags so they think everybody are scumbags" is based on lack of knowledge of most cops and what they do.


 
Funny how it was cops who told me you are either a cop or a criminal, or a criminal waiting to happen.

And you must be right... having grown up with a cop for a father, I have no idea what they do.  :/


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## jks9199 (Mar 15, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> Funny how it was cops who told me you are either a cop or a criminal, or a criminal waiting to happen.
> 
> And you must be right... having grown up with a cop for a father, I have no idea what they do.  :/


Actually -- you don't.

You know how your father reacted to what he saw, and did, and how it effected him at home.  Being kin to a cop, going on ride-alongs, even having a PhD in criminal justice/administration of justice/etc., isn't the same as doing the job.

With that said -- in truth, cops often put on an act for the public.  After the umpteenth time you get the "you're a cop!  I hate cops, they gave me a ticket for..." or "Oh, oh, better not do that or you'll arrest me", etc. kind of discourages honest answers.  Just like the "oh, oh -- better not piss you off!" cracks about black belts aren't particularly encouraging positive responses...

But we do develop a different perspective on society and people.  I've never once been called to see how someone got straight As or the pretty picture a kid drew and put on the fridge.  I've lost count of the dead bodies I've seen (and very few have been violent deaths; I work in a pretty peaceful jurisdiction!), people who've cursed at me, and so on.  There is a reason that two cops who never met each other at a party almost invariably will recognize, and end up talking to each other.  So, there is a definite separation between a cop (on or off the clock) and the rest of the world...  After all, how many computer programmers or plumbers or teachers or whatever end up carrying the most serious tools of their trade on or off the clock -- recognizing that they may encounter a situation that will require them to react as if they were on the clock with little or no notice.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 15, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Actually -- you don't.
> 
> You know how your father reacted to what he saw, and did, and how it effected him at home. Being kin to a cop, going on ride-alongs, even having a PhD in criminal justice/administration of justice/etc., isn't the same as doing the job.
> 
> ...


 

JKS et al,

I mean no disrespect to you the other officers here or those that are my friends, but I have been conditioned by the police. I admit I have seen some of the worst. Being beat, and targeted and other such terms that most wish never would happen in their line of work. 

At a traffic stop, I wait with my hands on the steering wheel for the officer to approach then I tell him where my wallet that has my license is and where my Insurance is as well. So he can follow my movements. 

I have been told by some that this is the only way to do business when pulled over. As I should not be trying to hide things in my car as they approach, or in this case look for things such as paper work.

I have been told by some that I should have everything waiting for them.

I have also been told that what I do make me look and sound guilty so they look for more and then get upset when there is not more. 

With too many times if I get my wallet out or grab some insurance paperwork, I hve the police approach with their weapons drawn. If not a two person team then they call in back up. I do not like this.  I understand that you a re police officer. But I do not like a firearm pointed at me for any reason. I have had ti too often by bad guys and bad cops and good police officers. I do everything in my power to limit the times I have a firearm pointed at me. This limits the times a mistake could be made and simple single digit pressure on a trigger sends a projectile towards me and I am dead. I prefer to avoid that at all costs. 

I think the issue is that many police officers like the way they do business. And they think that everyone else should do it their way. 

I know that there are multiple training programs approved per state and chosen by city or county or smaller governments. Since there is not one common the police do it differently. 

I recognize this. To all do it the same would be a way to not adapt or improve training as to get it approved and sent to all would take for ever. 

But the problem here is that many present the appearence that they are the end and final judge as they have spoken. 

There was one member here who was an officer. I admit he knew a lot, but he did not know things I knew which I am not an officer. There is just too much to know for one person let alone to cover all state and local laws as well. 

This member who was an officer, had a friend who got upset when any one asked a question of him or challenged him on a point. Like it had to be his way or the high way. 

Having gone through a divorce and know the difference between a PPO (* Officer may take immediate or must take immediate action depending upon situation *) and a court order, that one has to go back to court and prove the order was not executed properly. 

I do not argue with officers. I am polite. Many times they get upset if I say sir. While I understand some might say it as an insult I do not and my tone should cover that. But some offciers have yelled at me for calling them sir. Others have just smiled and and said that is not required. 

The inconsistency of the presentation combined with the infalibility of how the officer presents themselves has the general public confused. 

With this confusion comes then ager as they do not know what they are supposed to do. 

With the confusion and and the anger, then it is an easy step to loose respect. 

The difference is I could tell a bad cop from a good police officer.


Thanks


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## jks9199 (Mar 15, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> At a traffic stop, I wait with my hands on the steering wheel for the officer to approach then I tell him where my wallet that has my license is and where my Insurance is as well. So he can follow my movements.
> 
> I have been told by some that this is the only way to do business when pulled over. As I should not be trying to hide things in my car as they approach, or in this case look for things such as paper work.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, there's no one uniform, perfect way to conduct a traffic stop.  But most officers that I know would advise you to sit still until they arrive at the window.  Looking for your insurance, fishing out your wallet and license, and all that is movement; we don't know what that movement may mean until we get up there.  We often don't know much about the driver of a car until we approach.  (Sometime, sit on the side of a road, and see how much you can tell about drivers in passing cars.  Especially at night.)  Any movement looks suspicious and worrisome -- because we don't know whether you're pulling a gun out of the glove box, or just your insurance card.  So, as I said, I and most officers I know advise you to sit still.  Place your hands on the wheel.  If it's nighttime, turn the dome light on.  Roll your window down -- at least a few inches.   And listen to what the officer says...

With specific regard to finding yourself at gunpoint...  I can't really address that too well, because there are too many variables.  If I'm in doubt on a traffic stop, my gun is out.  It may be out of your sight -- or it may be in a low ready, or even presented on target depending on the exact circumstances.  The time to draw may be the difference between life & death -- and the first rule of law enforcement is to go home at the end of the shift.   With that said, I'm not suggesting that you should either like seeing the business of a gun or get used to it.  If you feel you have been inappropriately confronted in this hostile manner (and there is NO polite way to point a gun at someone!), you have recourse.  Ask for a supervisor.  Or contact the department and file a complaint.  Cops operate with a lot of leeway, and little direct supervision.  Agencies rely on the public to inform them if there are problems in an officer's conduct.  They should be able to find out why, and the officer should be able to explain the justification for having his gun out.  And if it's happening to much -- it should be addressed -- even to dismissing the officer.  (Note that too much is a relative term; what's too often in my jurisdiction is not nearly often enough in parts of DC or NY City.)  But we can't know about a lot of things unless you, the public, tell us. 

As an aside -- many agencies have posted much more detailed responses and explanations about what to do during an involuntary encounter with the police.  Here are a few from PDs (chosen mostly at random):
http://www.cityofsouthfield.com/Cit...toppedbyaPoliceOfficer/tabid/848/Default.aspx

http://rentonwa.gov/living/default.aspx?id=268

http://www.twpusc.org/police/safetytips/stopped.html

I did not review all of these; it's possible they'll conflict, but I suspect they're pretty similar.  I did note one thing in a quick check:  Different states have different laws about signing tickets.  In some, it's optional.  In others -- if you refuse to sign, you go to jail.  Listen carefully to the officer's explanation of the ticket; it'll probably answer your questions.


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## Archangel M (Mar 16, 2008)

All great stuff jks. Dead on regarding complaints. Some people think that complaining just meets the "blue wall of silence" because they expect the cop to get fired on the spot regarding their complaint of the officer using foul language. What they dont realize it that the more complaints a specific officer gets the more likely harsher measures are. So its in the publics best interest to file those complaints. Yours may be the one that gets a "bad apple" off the street. Just be reasonable.The fact that you didnt like getting a ticket isnt a proper complaint. 

Respect is a two way street. So far this thread has only implied that the cops are lacking respect. Perhaps if the public gave some plain old courtesy things would go better too. I find it suspicious that every horror story is a "I was all nice and polite and the cop was a dick to me" situation. Perhaps one or two, but Im betting that there was a signifigantly different interaction going on most of the time.

The issue of the never ending stream of "ohhh look out here comes the cop" is another good one. All the "arrest him officer", "I didnt do it officer" and "the policeman is going to arrest you if you dont behave" get irritating. I know that people are just trying to be conversational or friendly, but a "good morning" or "how are you?" would be enough. Hand in hand with those people are the guys who feel the need to tell you about all the fights, knife fights, gang fights, shootings and so on that they have been in. Just so you know that they are tougher than you are. This is followed by all their fighting, shooting and "combat" experience as bouncers, martial artists, and so on. Or you are regailed with all the LE contacts they had where they knew more or better than the cop [I had to help the cop out [or]I could have "taken" him at any moment] or where they were somehow wronged by the cops. How they are always getting guns pointed at them or having the cops called on them because they are just so damn bad *** that everybody is scared of them. Ya know the types. I think that people who have THAT many contacts with the cops probably deserve them.

As to living with, working with, sleeping with cops giving you "insight" into the job. I rank that with the "I have black friends" or "I was married to the President so Im a better candidate" category. There should be a nifty term like "straw man" or "ad hominem" for when thats used.


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## shesulsa (Mar 16, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> Oops, I wanna correct this statement... They dont SAY since 90% of the people they deal with are scum, therefore... they say that if you arent a cop, you are either a scumbag, or a scumbag waiting to happen... I'm making an assumption this belief comes from the fact that 90% of the people they deal with are scum.



Hopefully they will realize that most citizens are not criminals by being around the crowd at your dojo before they are prosecuted for tazing a bro.



grydth said:


> Even as corrected, you can scarcely blame the public if they don't respect those specific guys.
> 
> First because these LEOs will encounter other forms of life such as victims and innocent bystanders.... probably the huge majority of people they will see. Second, because there are crooked cops as well as civilian scumbags. Being a cop is no immunity to being a bad apple, in fact bad cops are rotten apples.
> 
> ...



So sad and yet so true.


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## modarnis (Mar 16, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Well, it seems to me that you're asking the wrong people.
> 
> The cops are doing their jobs. Unfortunately, society over the last couple of decades has become ever-decreasingly tolerant of actually being told that they have to obey the same laws and play by the same rules that they want to impose on someone else. I always get a kick out of the results of targeted speed enforcement as a response to community complaints. Somehow, it always seems like we write more tickets to the folks who live there and complained than people passing through... :shrug:
> 
> ...


 
I'm coming into this debate rather late.  You hit the nail on the head though.  I work as a prosecutor in a medium sized city with some outlying burbs.  The reaction by citizens is the same.  They are often outraged about quality of life complaints and voice their opinions until it is their traffic ticket, their own noise complaint etc.  

In my opinion, police officers today are much better trained, more polite, more sensitive to cultural concerns etc.  Sure there are bad cops, bad prosecutors, bad governors or whatever.  There has been a significant shift over the past three decades away from personal responsibility in our country, so any attempt to reign in behavior is seen as an affront to 'rights'


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## Archangel M (Mar 16, 2008)

BTW most "Criminals" are "Citizens" are they not? 

Hand in hand with what modarnis just said. Sometimes you ARE the criminal. Just because YOU got caught doing something wrong, now its all "why dont you go out and catch REAL criminals". Paugh! 

Most of these STORIES never state that the complaintant did nothing wrong, or didnt deserve a ticket or arrest, Just that they are NICE people and should have gotten off with a warning. Im shure that most people are "good people", but what makes you think you are above the law?


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## shesulsa (Mar 16, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Well, it seems to me that you're asking the wrong people.
> 
> The cops are doing their jobs.  Unfortunately, society over the last couple of decades has become ever-decreasingly tolerant of actually being told that they have to obey the same laws and play by the same rules that they want to impose on someone else.  I always get a kick out of the results of targeted speed enforcement as a response to community complaints.  Somehow, it always seems like we write more tickets to the folks who live there and complained than people passing through...  :shrug:
> 
> ...


Sorry, it's a two-way street, even if the lane in one direction is more narrow than the other.

I'm not a criminal, I obey the laws to the very best of my ability.  I've had a police officer who came to my door refuse to show me his credentials, indicating the badge and uniform he was wearing should have been enough ... at 4am in an area where a man had been impersonating an officer and robbing people in the wee hours of the morning. This officer yelled at me. I never yelled at him.

I've had a police officer call me a "meathead" because he didn't like my car.  I've had a police officer accuse me of being an alcoholic slut because I had been drinking with a male friend when my estranged husband violated the restraining order and I called to have him arrested.

I have also ... been given a warning instead of a ticket when I knew I deserved the ticket, *not* been reported to CPS the third time my son left the house to be found by some Irish cops nearby (God bless them), and thanked for helping out at the scene of an accident.

:asian:


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## shesulsa (Mar 16, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> BTW most "Criminals" are "Citizens" are they not?
> 
> Hand in hand with what modarnis just said. Sometimes you ARE the criminal. Just because YOU got caught doing something wrong, now its all "why dont you go out and catch REAL criminals". Paugh!
> 
> Most of these STORIES never state that the complaintant did nothing wrong, or didnt deserve a ticket or arrest, Just that they are NICE people and should have gotten off with a warning. Im shure that most people are "good people", but what makes you think you are above the law?


Are you addressing me?  If you are:

I don't think I'm above the law. You are only reading what you want to read, I think.


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## Archangel M (Mar 16, 2008)

No not you. You feeling guilty? [joking]

Most of my posting is a general "you" as I dont know anybody here personally.

BTW I posted that before you popped up, why do you think its directed at anything you posted?


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## Jade Tigress (Mar 16, 2008)

thardey said:


> Situation #1
> 
> I got pulled over by a State Police who clocked me at 10 over on my motorcycle. By the time he turned around and pulled up behind me, I was off the motorcycle, helmet off, hands in sight, and the motorcycle shut down. He was very polite and asked why I was going so fast. I didn't have a good excuse so I didn't bother.
> 
> ...




You certainly have a knack for getting pulled over, lol!  

Seriously, LEO's are individuals as much as the rest of the population. The vast majority, as well as the rest of the population, are "good". Then you have your bad apples, and that's what we hear about, and rightly so. 

Cops put their lives on the line every day. They don't know who they're pulling over, remember the video posted recently of the cop pulling someone over and the guy getting out and attacking him? 

Thardy's instances are a perfect example of respect going both ways. He was respectful of the Officer by cluing him in with his actions that he was not a threat, and by acting respectfully to the officer, and the Officer was polite in return. 

That doesn't mean if you're breaking the law and are polite you're gonna get off, but you get my point. True, some, and perhaps more than we'd like to think, go into law enforcement for the wrong reasons. My previous Sifu, who taught many training seminars for LEO's, and whose Sifu was a former LEO, said the line between an Officer and a Criminal is a fine one. Studies showed they share many of the same traits, but one goes one way and one goes the other, you would think there are enough cops out there who went into the profession for a power trip end up giving the rest a bad name. 

In the instance of the cop in the article the OP posted, common sense was lost. I don't know what types of training Police Officers go through, but as in anything, common sense must come into play. Unfortunately, some people have it and some people don't. 

I don't have an answer as to how the police can get their respect back, the problem has grown into a monster. Perhaps it needs to start with us, if more of us took thardys' actions into play our perception may start to change.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 16, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Unfortunately, there's no one uniform, perfect way to conduct a traffic stop. But most officers that I know would advise you to sit still until they arrive at the window. Looking for your insurance, fishing out your wallet and license, and all that is movement; we don't know what that movement may mean until we get up there. We often don't know much about the driver of a car until we approach. (Sometime, sit on the side of a road, and see how much you can tell about drivers in passing cars. Especially at night.) Any movement looks suspicious and worrisome -- because we don't know whether you're pulling a gun out of the glove box, or just your insurance card. So, as I said, I and most officers I know advise you to sit still. Place your hands on the wheel. If it's nighttime, turn the dome light on. Roll your window down -- at least a few inches. And listen to what the officer says...
> 
> With specific regard to finding yourself at gunpoint... I can't really address that too well, because there are too many variables. If I'm in doubt on a traffic stop, my gun is out. It may be out of your sight -- or it may be in a low ready, or even presented on target depending on the exact circumstances. The time to draw may be the difference between life & death -- and the first rule of law enforcement is to go home at the end of the shift. With that said, I'm not suggesting that you should either like seeing the business of a gun or get used to it. If you feel you have been inappropriately confronted in this hostile manner (and there is NO polite way to point a gun at someone!), you have recourse. Ask for a supervisor. Or contact the department and file a complaint. Cops operate with a lot of leeway, and little direct supervision. Agencies rely on the public to inform them if there are problems in an officer's conduct. They should be able to find out why, and the officer should be able to explain the justification for having his gun out. And if it's happening to much -- it should be addressed -- even to dismissing the officer. (Note that too much is a relative term; what's too often in my jurisdiction is not nearly often enough in parts of DC or NY City.) But we can't know about a lot of things unless you, the public, tell us.
> 
> ...


 

JKS et al,

Here is my problem.  I agree with your points. That is way I have been conditioned to keep my hands in clear site. It makes things go easier. But there are just enough officers out there who are insulted that you were afraid and choose to wait. Yes it is fear. It is fear every time I have had a gun pointed at me. I do not freeze, but the fear is still there. 

I understand for your safety and the safety of other officers why it happens. Hence why I try to make it happen less.

I agee there is NO way to have a firearm pointed at me and have be it be good. 

I understand that Imay have seen some of the worse, but here is an example. 
Officer: That was not a gun that was pointed at your face. 
Me: I know it was a real gun as the bad guy and all his friends treated like a real gun. I looked down the barrel and it was not a pretty site it was huge. 
Officer: Sure it was huge as big as a shot gun.
Me: No it was about a 9 mm, with a stand mag, right hand controls.
Officer: So now you are a firearms expert.
Me: No officer I am not. I just know a toy when I see one. I know a real gun when I see one. And when hsi friends are freaked out by it, so am I.
Officer: I am not going to take a report as I cannot trust anything you are saying. 
Me: *Turn to Sergent* Sir are you the shift supervisor?
Sergent: Yes. 
Me: Can I get a report. 
Sergent: *Looks at Offcier*
Officer: NO!
ME: *said to all ten police officers present* Thank you, Iwill be calling the State Police directly. I will informing them of this incident and also of the fact that you refused to take my report. If you are still here,I will request he does a complete validation as I will ask him to arrest you for impersonating an officer. 
Officer: *Chest bumps me* You have no right and you will get yours, you little ...
ME: *Chest bump the officer back - He was smaller than me - he steps back and I follow with my chest in his. (* I know wrong time wrong situation, but this was about 6 months of dealing with poor response and poor attitudes and having a real gun about 12 inches from my head. *) How do I know that your gun is real? How do I know your badge is real? Get off my property (* I was managing a business *). 
Sergent: * Steps in and places his arm between me and his officer * 
ME: * I Step back my hands were behind my back and they staid they until this point *
Sergent: We will take the report. 


Now. I have the utmost respect for officers who go out there day after day and do that job. I never try to give disrespect to them or the conditions or stress. I have just seen some of the worst in my opinion. 

So while I understand that filing a complaint is the process, I did once and got lots of atention from the local police. In the end it was resolved, but only after long talks with a few detectives, to explain my points and my logs showing response times and also the times I have been pulled over for traffic stops after the complaint. The local police were all surprised when it woudl come out that was a college student for engineering and not just some uneducated criminal / bouncer / manager. And yes all three are together when the police are in involved with bars or hang outs for they are the same, from my experience. 

I understand, you do not get called to the report card of A's. You do not get called for the graduation party going right. You get called when there is a problem and when bad guys are involved. 

All I am saying is that if the officer and the person involved with the officer both remember where the other might be coming from. Then respect on both sides might be there.

Peace and thanks


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## jks9199 (Mar 16, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> JKS et al,
> 
> Here is my problem.  I agree with your points. That is way I have been conditioned to keep my hands in clear site. It makes things go easier. But there are just enough officers out there who are insulted that you were afraid and choose to wait. Yes it is fear. It is fear every time I have had a gun pointed at me. I do not freeze, but the fear is still there.
> 
> ...


  I'm not even going to try to assess a sketchy, incomplete account of an incident.  It'd be insulting and unfair to both you and the officers involved.


> Now. I have the utmost respect for officers who go out there day after day and do that job. I never try to give disrespect to them or the conditions or stress. I have just seen some of the worst in my opinion.
> 
> So while I understand that filing a complaint is the process, I did once and got lots of atention from the local police. In the end it was resolved, but only after long talks with a few detectives, to explain my points and my logs showing response times and also the times I have been pulled over for traffic stops after the complaint. The local police were all surprised when it woudl come out that was a college student for engineering and not just some uneducated criminal / bouncer / manager. And yes all three are together when the police are in involved with bars or hang outs for they are the same, from my experience.
> 
> ...



Again -- I don't know you personally.  I don't know how you present yourself, or what drives the encounters.  No cop likes to be the subject of an IA, especially when they don't believe they've done anything wrong.  Is it possible that, especially in smaller jurisdictions, there might be repercussions?  Yes.  If you're that concerned -- go over their heads.  Contact the state police or the state attorney general, or even the FBI.  (The FBI is not likely to get involved in many complaints about minor misconduct.)  Especially, if you feel that they haven't responded to your complaints, move up the chain.  But -- I'll tell you, most cops don't have the time to bother harassing someone who complained on them.  Especially the decent, professional cops.

Most officers I know are human.  We have good days and bad days, and we make mistakes.  Many of us have learned how to de-escalate a situation, from practical necessity.  But, often, the problems in police-public interaction go both ways.  I once stopped someone who had been driving with their head rectally inserted so deeply that they hadn't noticed my marked cruiser, lights, and siren for 2 blocks until they parked.  She wasn't happy when my approach to her was rather escalated...  And she actually did complain.  I might have handled it differently -- but she had some fault there, too, huh?


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 16, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I'm not even going to try to assess a sketchy, incomplete account of an incident. It'd be insulting and unfair to both you and the officers involved.


 
I respect your reply here. You need the actual data not just one side.  



jks9199 said:


> Again -- I don't know you personally. I don't know how you present yourself, or what drives the encounters. No cop likes to be the subject of an IA, especially when they don't believe they've done anything wrong. Is it possible that, especially in smaller jurisdictions, there might be repercussions? Yes. If you're that concerned -- go over their heads. Contact the state police or the state attorney general, or even the FBI. (The FBI is not likely to get involved in many complaints about minor misconduct.) Especially, if you feel that they haven't responded to your complaints, move up the chain. But -- I'll tell you, most cops don't have the time to bother harassing someone who complained on them. Especially the decent, professional cops.


 
You are correct the FBI is not interested unless you can show documentation of trying to go up the ladder. 

Even the other local police complained about the group I was referring too. I know my comments only you cannot comment.



jks9199 said:


> Most officers I know are human. We have good days and bad days, and we make mistakes. Many of us have learned how to de-escalate a situation, from practical necessity. But, often, the problems in police-public interaction go both ways. I once stopped someone who had been driving with their head rectally inserted so deeply that they hadn't noticed my marked cruiser, lights, and siren for 2 blocks until they parked. She wasn't happy when my approach to her was rather escalated... And she actually did complain. I might have handled it differently -- but she had some fault there, too, huh?


 
If I make a mistake I understand it going to the next level. I fully expected to be in hand coughs after I did that chest bump move back to the officer. Would I have been able to issue a complaint, maybe, but it would have been in response to his bump which may or may not have been an issue when reviewed from behind the desk of thsoe who took the report. 

On another note I went through a a Divorce. I called 911 when her Boy friend called and threatened to kill me. He showed up at our house where she and I where still living. The police were not dispatched. I called a second time to 911 and they told me they were goign to send an officer around for making false calls and so _"Man"_ would call 911 thye would jsut kick his *** and then the Ex would call the police. I told her to send teh officer now as the Ex was opening the garage to him now. She then told me not to let him in the house. I asked her how was I suppsoed to do that. I cannot stand in her way to a doorway. I cannot touch her or restrain her, so how do I stop her? Do I just say stop? The ex looked at me and opened the house door to the garage and yelled out that "he is in the kitchen and he is on the phone with someone." I went out the back door. The police finally showed up. I motioned to them as the officer drove by and she pulled into our driveway and then turned on her lights.  I stated that I had called. The officer was a female about 105 lbs with her vest on. She told me to be quiet and to sit down in the yard where I was. So I did. She then looked at the ex and her boyfriend and pulled her gun, pointed it at me told me to stand up slowly. I did. She then asked what was in my hand. I told her the phone I called her from. She replied I do not want to hear any of that. Put the phone down. I started to bend over and she yelled stop. She asked me what I was doing. I said putting the phone down. (* It was a portable form the kitchen it was before I had a cell phone *). She then stated. Just dropp it. I did. She then proceeded at gun point to have me raise my jacket (* October in Michigan *) and make sure I did not have a weapon under it. (* I understoood this. *) She then proceded to have me come to her car and then she hand cuffed me and put me in the back of her car. She would not allow me to speak. She did go talk to the ex and asked if they had called. She came back and told me she was going to go and that I had to leave. I tried to talk and she told me to shut up. So I staid quiet and did not move. She could take me to the station and press charges for trying to just state my side of the case. Three more cars showed up including a sergent. She grabbed me bythe hair and pulled me out against teh car and un-cuffed me. Then she said get back into the car as her back up was walking up the drive way. (* Why did she have to un cuff me if she had done nothing wrong? *). After the five officers talked to the ex and got their story again about how they had not called they came back to me. The responding officer told me to leave. I turned to the sergent and asked if I may speak. He said yes. I then asked May I present my side of the case? He looked surprised and asked her, if she had talked to me? She replied no as they (* the ex and BF *) were together. I was then able to state how I had called twice and and how I wanted a police report to file a PPO against them both. The responding officer replied no. I then asked  if she knwe about the local domestic violence laws and that she had to if I asked. She then replied that the law was there only for women. I turned to the Sergent and asked if I could get a report. He turned to her and told her to give me a report. 

She did take a report. She did not file it that night. She was off three days and then decided not to file it for two more shifts. Even after my Lawyer called her Captain to complain about her not wanting to file the report and that it was late and how she treated me in general. (* I did not mention to you above how she had slammed my testicles while "checking" for weapons when she cuffed me. *) The reply from the Captain was the following: "She is a small officer, and he is a 6'3" Monster" - She was scared by his motions and form there she just did not want to give me a chance to open his mouth or to move. 

On a side note: The ex was able to get a PPO against me with out the report as they sign them locally to protect women. I got a copy of the report for our records and the report was not true. It stated that I was running around threatening her and everyone else that I was a black belt. the only person there who knew of my training was my ex. 

My point of this long story, is that she felt threatened and used her tools to make sure she limited the danger during a domestic which are prime for violence. I understand this. I understand that she did what she felt required. 

Of course when I asked my police friends about this, their reply was funny to everyone but me. "Rich, if I came across you and did not know you. I would get you off to the side even if I had to do it at gun point and get you in the back of the car. I might not have cuffed you, if you went quietly. But if I knew it was you and you did not listen to me, I would call the local/nearest SWAT and ask for them to come by and be back up while we approached you.  So I understand that people are afraid of my size. I understand that people profile. 

All I am saying is that once you realize that it is not such a bad situation try to bring the adrenaline down a notch or two. If you (* the generic officer not being personal *) expect the person in the car to do this and they do not have your training or exposure to situations that cause adrenaline it should be expected of you as well in my opinion.


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## Archangel M (Mar 16, 2008)

And then we get people like this who do little for "respect".

***Warning Vulgar Language****

There is some swearing but this is a good illustration of how some cops can get pissy......watch this one and the 2 that follow for what types of stupidity cops have to deal with out there. There should be little doubt about all the things that could have gone wrong here.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lBKor-ybYlI&feature=related


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## Bodhisattva (Mar 17, 2008)

jetboatdeath said:


> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-03-12-mom-on-trial_N.htm
> 
> Look at the comments posted at the bottom......
> 
> ...



the police will not be respected until the victim-less crimes are erased from the books.


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## shesulsa (Mar 17, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> the police will not be respected until the victim-less crimes are erased from the books.


And what, in your opinion, are the victimless crimes?


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## jetboatdeath (Mar 17, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> The whole "all cops see are scumbags so they think everybody are scumbags" is based on lack of knowledge of most cops and what they do. If you are talking about cops working the "war zones" of an inner city perhaps there could be a touch of that. But most cops spend FAR more time dealing with victims of crime, "normal citizens" on traffic stops, vehicle breakdowns and traffic accidents, etc. If anything they spend a far greater percentage of time dealing with the normal than the scumbags. Its funny how cops are only there to "pick up the pieces" after a crime and "only deal with scumbags" all at the same time.


 
Yea it is funny we all know a cop has no obligation to protect anyone.....


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## thardey (Mar 17, 2008)

jetboatdeath said:


> Yea it is funny we all know a cop has no obligation to protect anyone.....



No more than you or I do.


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