# Shotokan - Art of War



## SPX (Dec 15, 2011)

Anyone seen this?  

I just ordered it. . .


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## SahBumNimRush (Dec 15, 2011)

Haven't seen it, but it looks like a lot of good footage!


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## SPX (Dec 16, 2011)

I actually just got it in the mail today.  

I'll give it a watch and come back with a review when I'm done.


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## Ironcrane (Dec 16, 2011)

Some of those blows hurt just watching them. I'm interested in your review.  I'm also interested in what it was that made Shotokan dominate.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2011)

Ironcrane said:


> Some of those blows hurt just watching them. I'm interested in your review. I'm also interested in what it was that made Shotokan dominate.



Can you expand on what makes you think Shotokan dominates and what it dominates? The title is a misnomer as Shotokan along with other karate styles was designed for civilian self defence not war or fighting in battles.


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## Ironcrane (Dec 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Can you expand on what makes you think Shotokan dominates and what it dominates? The title is a misnomer as Shotokan along with other karate styles was designed for civilian self defence not war or fighting in battles.



In the video at around 2:08 on volume three the narrator speciffically states that "the Shotokan style of Karate dominates the world at all levels." The video then goes on to talk about the KUGB Shotokan group, and mentiones about three other times that they dominated in competition.

So given that, I'm curious to know what it was that made Shotokan so successful.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2011)

Ironcrane said:


> In the video at around 2:08 on volume three the narrator speciffically states that "the Shotokan style of Karate dominates the world at all levels." The video then goes on to talk about the KUGB Shotokan group, and mentiones about three other times that they dominated in competition.
> 
> So given that, I'm curious to know what it was that made Shotokan so successful.




Lol so the narrator on a Shotokan video says that it dominates the world and that means it does? There are many karate competitions, many organsisations, there's even many world championships, no one competition is the definitive one so that if Shotokan karateka won 3 comps it doesn't mean they dominate, what if it's an all Shotokan competition?


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## Cayuga Karate (Dec 18, 2011)

Tez3 wrote:



> The title is a misnomer as Shotokan along with other karate styles was  designed for civilian self defence not war or fighting in battles.



It's an interesting point, regarding the origins of the art. However, given the role of Chinese military attachés in the development of Okinawan karate, perhaps the military potential of the art is worth considering. 

From Funakoshi's *Karate-Do Kyohan*: 



> There is no doubt that the many experts who traveled between Okinawa  and China contributed heavily to the bringing of karate to its present  level. For example it has come down by word of mouth that about 200  years ago, a certain Sakugawa of Akata, in Shuri, traveled to China and  then returned to Okinawa after mastering karate to become known as  Karate Sakugawa. Again, according to Shiodaira of Shuri, one hundred and  fifty years ago (as noted in the Oshima Note, by Tobe of Tosa, Japan), a  *Chinese expert, by name of Ku Shanku*, arrived in  Okinawa with a few of his students and introduced a type of kempo.  Okinawan experts such as Sakiyama, Gushi, and Tomoyori, of Naha, studied  for some time with the *Chinese military attache, Ason*; Matsumuma of Shuri, Maesato  and Kogusuku of Kume, with the *military attaché, Iwah*; and Shimabuku of Uemonden, and Higa, Senaha, Gushi, Nagahama, Aragaki, Higjuanna and Kuwae, all of Kunenboya, with the *military attaché, Waishinzan*.  It is said that Gusukuma, Kanagusuku, Matsumura, Oyatomari, Yamada,  Nakazato, Yamazato, and Toguchi, all of Tomari, was a Southern Chinese  who drifted ashore at Okinawa.[emphasis added]



-Cayuga Karate


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## RobinTKD (Dec 18, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Lol so the narrator on a Shotokan video says that it dominates the world and that means it does? There are many karate competitions, many organsisations, there's even many world championships, no one competition is the definitive one so that if Shotokan karateka won 3 comps it doesn't mean they dominate, what if it's an all Shotokan competition?



I think, Tez, that he is using the word 'Dominate' purely because it is used in the trailer, it doesn't seem to me that it's his opinion.

Although in terms of Karate, shotokan has definitely 'dominated' the commercial aspect in terms of it is the most readily available style to learn, in northants, that i know of, we have double figures of shotokan schools, 1 kyokushinkai, 1 Isshin-Ryu, and the Goju-Ryu class that i used to attend has just finished.

Speaking of style against style, it's a moot argument, it's the martial artist that matters not the martial art.

Sorry to play devils advocate.


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## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2011)

We have Wado Ryu 'dominating' up here lol. When Wado came here first the UK was split into areas for the senior grades to take over. They did better in certain areas than others. 
http://karatenorthampton.co.uk/default.aspx
http://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/pjk-wado-kan-karate-northampton


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## RobinTKD (Dec 18, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> We have Wado Ryu 'dominating' up here lol. When Wado came here first the UK was split into areas for the senior grades to take over. They did better in certain areas than others.
> http://karatenorthampton.co.uk/default.aspx
> http://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/pjk-wado-kan-karate-northampton




Well i never knew that they were there! It seems they train at the same place as the GODO Ju-Juitsu club, and the Kyokushinkai club!


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## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> Well i never knew that they were there! It seems they train at the same place as the GODO Ju-Juitsu club, and the Kyokushinkai club!



Abandon TKD immediately, never look another style in the face again and train only Wado Ryu, it has everything you ever need in it, puts everything else in the shade!!!


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## RobinTKD (Dec 18, 2011)

my instructor trained in Wado-Ryu as well as TKD, it's fair to say that we train in a similar (more traditional?) way. But it does look interesting, i hear its quite similar to Goju and Isshin-ryu?


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## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> my instructor trained in Wado-Ryu as well as TKD, it's fair to say that we train in a similar (more traditional?) way. But it does look interesting,* i hear its quite similar to Goju and Isshin-ryu?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Tbh I'd don't know. When I couldn't train Wado anymore, the instructor left and the club closed, I went onto TSD and MMA. I do love Wado though and would go back in a shot if I could. It has subtleties and nuances I love, it seems a 'deep' martial art if you know what I mean. Very effective I've found, I've put a lot of it into our MMA.


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## Cayuga Karate (Dec 19, 2011)

Regarding Shotokan being an "_Art of War_", there are a few notable Shotokan teachers who claim that some of the movements in kata are designed for use in combat, if the soldier lost his weapon. I'm curious if anyone on this forum has seen these claims.

-Cayuga Karate


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## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2011)

Cayuga Karate said:


> Regarding Shotokan being an "_Art of War_", there are a few notable Shotokan teachers who claim that some of the movements in kata are designed for use in combat, if the soldier lost his weapon. I'm curious if anyone on this forum has seen these claims.
> 
> -Cayuga Karate




I've seen some mention of this but to be honest I think it's unlikely they could be used on a battlefield. I've also been told that the flying sidekick is used to knock a rider off his horse, as a rider I find this far fetched too. I'll have a look and see if I can find something on those claims, I'm sure it was mentioned somewhere, if I can remember where I saw it lol, old age you know!


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## SahBumNimRush (Dec 19, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I've seen some mention of this but to be honest I think it's unlikely they could be used on a battlefield. I've also been told that the flying sidekick is used to knock a rider off his horse, as a rider I find this far fetched too. I'll have a look and see if I can find something on those claims, I'm sure it was mentioned somewhere, if I can remember where I saw it lol, old age you know!



I agree with the flying side kick portion of your statement being utter nonsense.. .

However, I'm not convinced that *some* movements found within katas are not derived in some part from military tactical maneuvers.  The Mooye Dobo Tongi is a Korean military text written in 1559, but it was pretty much a transcription of an older Chinese military text.  While it really appears to be nothing more than PT maneuvers rather than tactical stuff, it outlines PT with various weapons, horseback riding, and *empty hand* fighting.  Hwang Kee supposedly derived some of the Moo Duk Kwan's later forms from these illustrations (can't remember what I'd read, was either yuk ro, chil sung, and/or hwa sun).  The illustrations have similar movements found within Chinese, Korean, and Japanese/Okinawan forms.  

Due to Karate's historical evolution, I highly doubt it was used during any Japanese/Okinawan battlefield conflict.  And, I cannot claim that movements found within Japanese Kata were ever used on the battlefield, but due to the historical context of the transcribed Chinese text, I cannot discount it either.


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## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I agree with the flying side kick portion of your statement being utter nonsense.. .
> 
> However, I'm not convinced that *some* movements found within katas are not derived in some part from military tactical maneuvers. The Mooye Dobo Tongi is a Korean military text written in 1559, but it was pretty much a transcription of an older Chinese military text. While it really appears to be nothing more than PT maneuvers rather than tactical stuff, it outlines PT with various weapons, horseback riding, and *empty hand* fighting. Hwang Kee supposedly derived some of the Moo Duk Kwan's later forms from these illustrations (can't remember what I'd read, was either yuk ro, chil sung, and/or hwa sun). The illustrations have similar movements found within Chinese, Korean, and Japanese/Okinawan forms.
> 
> Due to Karate's historical evolution, I highly doubt it was used during any Japanese/Okinawan battlefield conflict. And, I cannot claim that movements found within Japanese Kata were ever used on the battlefield, but due to the historical context of the transcribed Chinese text, I cannot discount it either.




I imagine that the moves could be trained for use on the battlefield, a soldier would want every option available to him. I just can't imagine them actually being used against armed soldiers all crowded together in a battle. It could be I'm thinking more of Western battles from the Romans to the Napoleonic era but I don't think the battles would have been too different in Asia.


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## SahBumNimRush (Dec 19, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I imagine that the moves could be trained for use on the battlefield, a soldier would want every option available to him. I just can't imagine them actually being used against armed soldiers all crowded together in a battle. It could be I'm thinking more of Western battles from the Romans to the Napoleonic era but I don't think the battles would have been too different in Asia.



I tend to agree with you, and from what I've seen from scholars' opinions on it I'd say you're right.  Most have asserted that although this type of training had little value for large-scale  battle, it was useful to train bodily flexibility,  reflexes, hands speed, quick, solid footwork and jumping capacity,  because these attributes are very valuable for a warrior to possess.


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## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I tend to agree with you, and from what I've seen from scholars' opinions on it I'd say you're right. Most have asserted that although this type of training had little value for large-scale battle, it was useful to train bodily flexibility, reflexes, hands speed, quick, solid footwork and jumping capacity, because these attributes are very valuable for a warrior to possess.



Poor soldiers, it's all training for them! Different weapons, different names but the equivilants of the Sgt.Maj have been shouting at troops for millenia now. Move you orrible little men.....


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## Makalakumu (Dec 19, 2011)

When I first clicked on this thread, I was very curious, because I think the idea could be supported that karate curriculum was actually changed to become MORE militaristic in the modern era.  I didn't post anything because I discovered that we were talking about a video.  Since we are talking about the subject, however, check out what the Grandfather of Shotokan had to say about the art he passed on to Gichin Funakoshi, the Father of Shotokan.



> Itosus 10 Precepts (Iains transaltion) wrote:
> 
> Karate did not  develop from Buddhism or Confucianism. In the past the Shorin-ryu school  and the Shorei-ryu school were brought to Okinawa from China. Both of  these schools have strong points and I therefore list them below just as  they are without embellishment.
> 
> ...



I bolded some relevant sections in Itosu's famous letter.

It seems clear to me that one of the reasons that Itosu wanted to include karate into the school curriculum was to prepare school children in Okinawa for the rigors of warfare.  When one considers the move away from an individualistic, form application based art, and into a regimented, disciplined line drill art, where the whole dojo moves like one unit, it becomes pretty easy to see the military intentions.  So, yeah, I don't think ancient karate had much to do with military training.  It seemed to be something that people developed to fit their own needs.  After 1900, this seems to have changed as Okinawa became more entwined into Japanese military designs.


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## David43515 (Dec 19, 2011)

If Shotokan could be said to be dominant, I think it would just be in the sense that it (and Shotokai) is the most common style practiced in Japan. When he came to Japan to teach, Funakoshi didn`t begin by training law enforcement or opening a public dojo, he began by opening clubs at the most elite universities in the country. These were the places that trained the future polititions and business leaders of the country. And they went on to supprt him and open doors for him. They also created the Shotokan and Shotokai organizations, the first large karate organizations in Japan. They trained teachers and made the first large-scale forays into teaching abroad. It wasn`t a matter of technical supperiority that made them the largest karate oganization in the world for many years, it was their ability to organize and work towards a common goal. (Whether it was a good goal or not remains to be seen, but it was a very Japanese one. Personally I preffer very small groups, or none at all.) It took other older styles on Okinawa, and newer styles like Kyokushinkai, years to catch up.


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## SPX (Dec 19, 2011)

Well I finished watching this thing, and to be honest, I'm disappointed. 

The trailer makes it out to be a documentary, delving deeply into the art of karate and examining the Shotokan style, and examining traditional competition, full-contact kickboxing-style competition, and the effects of said competition.  But instead of that, you get . . . 3 hours worth of edited footage from traditional karate comps with little explanation of exactly what you're watching.

Regarding questions like Why is Shotokan the dominant style?  Why is karate so effective?  Etc. . .  Well, who knows, because nothing is actually explained.  There's a brief 3 or 4 minute intro that talks a bit about where Shotokan came from and how, in their opinion, the JKA form of Shotokan remains the closest to Funakoshi's intentions.  And then it's off to the races, with a virtually unending series of kumite clips.

If a library of 3ish hours worth of karate matches featuring high-level competitors is appealing to you, then I'm sure you would find this fascinating.  But don't buy this set expecting a structured documentary.  

Now regarding the conversation earlier about why it's called the "art of war," I'm sure that's just because it includes people fighting and they thought it sounded like a cool title.  Kind of like another product they have, "Shotokan - Raw Power."

Here's their catalog if anyone wants to give it a look:

http://store.legendtv.co.uk


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## Cayuga Karate (Dec 20, 2011)

I wrote above that there are some who believe that some karate kata movements could be used on the battlefield.

Keigo Abe, a senior JKA karateka said the following in an interview:



> The Katas were originally designed for Budo. Kata was a library of techniques to incapacitate and even kill the opponents. Remember, the origin of many Kata and techniques were Chinese and China was involved in many wars. These fighting methods eventually found their way to Okinawa and Okinawa was involved in wars. Remember, it was all hand to hand combat there were no laser guided smart bombs back then. Killing was face to face, done by the hand of the warrior. Think about the reality of it. They fought for their lives among the dead bodies of their friends. There was screaming, blood and killing all around them.
> This developed a mental focus in the warrior that is indescribable and most probably unattainable unless you were in the terrifying reality of hand to hand, face to face warfare.
> 
> The techniques found in Kata came from actual battlefield experience where killing and killing quickly was necessary. But the war of today is different than the war of the past. And we are not battlefield warriors who kill on an almost daily basis. Funakoshi Sensei developed Karate into a DO as opposed to a JUTSU (an Art and Philosophical Way of Life as opposed to only fighting techniques). Funakoshi Sensei modified the Katas to be more physically demanding and more focused on body dynamics and beauty. This allows the student to focus on defeating his most dangerous modern day opponent, himself. This transition from Jutsu to Do was also necessary to bring Karate to the Ministry of Education in Japan to be taught in the schools. This allowed Karate-Do to grow and eventually be practiced my millions of students as it is today. So in Karate's transition from Jutsu to Do, something was lost, but something much greater was gained. The Budo is still in our Katas anyway. If you train hard and study deeply, you will find that most of the original principles and techniques are still alive and well. They just look different.



In addition, the Seibukan Hanshi Zenpo Shimabukuru often uses the term "combat" to describe the environment in which karate developed. While combat is not always related to military fighting, it generally is.

Has anyone else seen sources describing the history of the karate as being related to warfare?

Cayuga Karate


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2011)

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/karate-civilian-fighting-system

Interesting discussion here on whether karate is civilian or military.


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## Cayuga Karate (Dec 20, 2011)

Tez3 wrote:



> Interesting discussion here on whether karate is civilian or military.



I find this analysis is lacking an important aspect of the need for military capability in the RyuKyu kingdom, right up into the latter half of the 19th century. There are two histories of karate that help shed light on the need of Okinawans in the Shizoku class to undergo combative training of a military nature. 

In *Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters*, Nagamine gives us the following valuable information:



> Tribute [trade] was the single most important aspect of the Ryukyus&#8217; social  economy, and, therefore, no expense was ever spared when it come to  ensuring the safety of cargo, passengers, and crew.  It was the  responsibility of the captain and crew to be able to defend their cargo  and vessel against attacks during a voyage, Hence, proper training in  combative disciplines was essential. Designated the official vessels of  the Ryukyu Kingdom, tribute ships carried both valuable cargo and  important passengers to China. In the event of an assault, which was  quite frequent during feudal times, *passengers who were skilled in  combative disciplines were, by order of the King, commanded to aid the  crew*. [emphasis added]



In *The Secret Royal Art of Ryukyu*, Matsuo writes:




> While retaining their aristocratic position with their tiled roofs and  hairpins, the engaged in other work at home, accumulated debts, and  awaited their turn for promotion within the government system. Once they  were promoted, they repaid their debts, and worked day and night in  order to be appointed as part of a traveling entourage, so that they  could leave something for their descendants. Once they were appointed to  said position, they left for China on a tribute ship, earned extra pay,  and returned home. Those who studied karate and associated weapons  practices under a master in preparation for their journey were the  Ryukyu bushi.
> 
> The feudal lords were comprised of the princes,  the Aji and the Uekata, who were given land and stipends. The  aristocrats were comprised of the Peichin classes, who were given charge  of villages. The lower level aristocrats maintained their status in  Shuri, Tomari, Naha and Kume while also working at the various  governmental offices.
> These lower level aristocrats were without  stipend, and many worked with no wages, awaiting to be appointed to a  post in which they would be granted a stipend. Out of thousands in this  position, some lost all employment, and left to make a living in the  farming villages surrounding Shuri and Naha.
> ...



We have very little documented history related to karate. It was practiced in the utmost secrecy. We shouldn't be surprised at that. Funakoshi describes the role of Chinese military attaches in the transmission of combative arts to Okinawa. Military arts are taught in secret, and great lengths are taken to keep them secret.

But we should also appreciate that the traditional histories of karate have completely overlooked the fundamental role of maritime trade to the Ryukyu economy, and the terrible challenge of navigating across the coastal waters of China, where piracy was conducted on a grand scale for centuries. In the *Eighth Voyage of the Dragon: A History of China's Quest for Seapower*, Bruce Swanson wrote: 



> In 1805, a combined Guangdong-Fujian pirate force totaled nearly 70,000 men and 2,000 ships... Fujian navy men were often assigned by the central government to accompany tribute missions overseas. For example, two hundred Fujianese sailors acted as a protective escort for a convoy bound for the Liuqiu (Ryukyu) Islands in 1800.



Matsuo notes the critical importance for Okinawans of securing a position in a tribute mission. That was the one way that one could fully become a member of Okinawa's aristocracy. Funakoshi reminds us early on in Karate-Do Kyohan:



> Even at the time of the present writer&#8217;s youth [in the 1870s], lack of a  full set of Chinese furniture and furnishings in one&#8217;s home was a  serious impediment to the social influence of any leading family.



I believe that many may be willing to consider a different hypothesis when one reviews these and other similar sources: 


Due to the fundamental importance of tribute trade with China to the Okinawan aristocracy, and the formidable challenge of piracy, the Okinawan aristocracy had an obvious need to develop military skills of those who would participate in tribute trade. 
Chinese military authorities accompanied tribute missions to Okinawa to protect the trading mission from piracy. During the six month stays of these tribute missions, these Chinese military authorities were available to share military capabilities with the Okinawans. Whatever military techniques the Chinese did share with the Okinawans should be expected to have been passed down in complete secrecy, with strict pledges of secrecy for those that learned military concepts from these Chinese military authorities. 
Funakoshi describes military attaches, and a shipwrecked Chinese sailor, as having been involved in the training of Okinawans in combative arts. 
Funakoshi, Motobu, Nagamine, Higashioanna and others have clearly described the secrecy that shrouded the instruction of karate in Okinawa, right up until the dawn of the 20th century. 
In his text *Okinawan Kenpo* Motobu describes 12 forms as having come from China, one of which, Chinte he labels *bamboo-yari spear style*. [emphasis added] 
 
The video, linked to above, brings up an interesting question. Can Shotokan karate be considered an "Art of War". But rather than look at whether the empty hand art practiced today is "war-like", I think another question is useful in trying to better understand these kata that have been handed down. Is it possible that Shotokan and other Okinawan kata (of Chinese origin) have military origins, that they were developed for military (armed) purposes? That's a question that some may consider worthy of further discussion, and if anyone is interested, I would be interested in beginning a new thread on this.

One last note. The empty hand arts of Jiujitsu and Aikido use concepts from sword arts. Empty hand kali movements are derived from kali stick/machete arts. The Chinese art of Xingyi quan is said to have been derived from spear arts. This discussion is not an attempt to claim that many empty handed kata movements don't work well for empty hand fighting. Without question, many work very well in empty hand fighting.

Rather this is more a question of the reason in which Chinese military authorities chose to share combative arts to Okinawans. What were their motivations? What benefit could their arts be to Okinawans?

The standard histories that Funakoshi and others have passed down is that these Chinese military personnel must have been good-natured folks who seemed to like teaching the Okinawans how to fight empty handed by passing down these old Chinese kata. 

An alternative interpretation is that these military authorities had an opportunity to instruct Okinawans how best to ensure their voyages to and from China had the best chances of success in navigating through the pirate infested waters off the Chinese coast. This was in China's national interests and in the Okinawans national interests. 

-Cayuga Karate


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## TimoS (Dec 23, 2011)

Cayuga Karate said:


> In his text *Okinawan Kenpo* Motobu describes 12 forms as having come from China, one of which, Chinte he labels *bamboo-yari spear style*. [emphasis added]


In which version of the book is this mentioned? My friend just checked Iwai Kohaku: Motobu Chôki to Ryukyu karate, written in Japanese, and there is no mention of this being a spear kata. That book contains Motobu's books "Watashi no karatejutsu" and "Okinawa Kenpô karatejutsu"


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2011)

I posted up an ongoing discussion rather than an analysis, you can always join in if it's not to your satisfaction!


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## Cayuga Karate (Dec 23, 2011)

Okinawan Kempo - Choki Motobu

Published 1995, Published by Rising Sun Productions

http://www.amazon.com/Okinawan-Kempo-Choki-Motobu/dp/092012917X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324687750&sr=8-1

An interesting review claims the translation appears to be nearly word-for-word of Seiyu Oyata's 1977 translation entitled "Okinawa Kempo: Karate-Jutsu on Kumite"

http://www.amazon.com/review/RPE75IADUT7NJ

Below is a page that seems to indicate the same:

http://seinenkai.com/salute-motobu.html


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## Cayuga Karate (Dec 23, 2011)

Tez3 wrote:



> I posted up an ongoing discussion rather than an analysis, you can always join in if it's not to your satisfaction



I am not sure what that means. Could you elaborate please?


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## Tez3 (Dec 24, 2011)

Cayuga Karate said:


> Tez3 wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure what that means. Could you elaborate please?




The link I posted from Iain Abernethy's site is an ongoing discussion, you said it was an analysis. I don't know enough to make any analysis on this subject so posted up a discussion I am following as a member of Iain's forum. I was suggesting that if you don't agree with what is being written you should join in the discussion.


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## Cayuga Karate (Dec 24, 2011)

Tez3

Thanks for the info. 

I'll pass.


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