# Tai Chi Fist…



## FranciscoNegron (Sep 2, 2021)

I don’t know if anyone’s seen this and learning that it’s actually a grappling art, it’s disheartening to to realize that Tai Chi is probably the most misunderstood of martial arts. I know there are good teachers who know how to use it for fighting…somewhere.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 2, 2021)

A lot of qinna and shuaijiao in traditional Taijiquan


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## Buka (Sep 2, 2021)

I once asked Billy Blanks who was the toughest guy he ever trained with or fought. He told me "Master Chan", his Tai Chi instructor from Pennsylvania. 

He also told me Master Chan's mother, who was eighty years old at the time and training since she was three, was really tough as well.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 2, 2021)

Taiji has

1. jab - advance hammer.
2. cross - brush knee twist step.
3. hook punch - left/right striking tiger.
4. uppercut - snake extend tone.
5. hammer fist - turn around hammer.

It can be a complete striking art if you train it properly.

The funny thing is, Taiji guys never talk about a punch on the face. They always talk about a push on the chest.


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## FranciscoNegron (Sep 3, 2021)

It’s amazing that Taiji has everything, but isn’t taught or applied correctly.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2021)

FranciscoNegron said:


> It’s amazing that Taiji has everything, but isn’t taught or applied correctly.


There was a Taiji for helth group in California. One time I was going to show them the application of their Taiji form, they were not interested.

Taiji guys look down on their own Taiji striking skill and think it's low level skill.

Taiji is my 1st MA system (when I was 7). Many people try to put anti-Taiji label on me. I'm anti-Taiji for health. I'm not anti-Taiji for combat.


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## FranciscoNegron (Sep 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There was a Taiji for helth group in California. One time I was going to show them the application of their Taiji form, they were not interested.
> 
> Taiji guys look down on their own Taiji striking skill and think it's low level skill.
> 
> Taiji is my 1st MA system (when I was 7). Many people try to put anti-Taiji label on me. I'm anti-Taiji for health. I'm not anti-Taiji for combat.


That’s a shame! It seems like Dr. Yang is one a few Taiji people who can use it for fighting.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 3, 2021)

FranciscoNegron said:


> That’s a shame! It seems like Dr. Yang is one a few Taiji people who can use it for fighting.



My shifu was a student of Tung Ying Chieh, he taught us the martial side as well. But as time went on he got more and more students who did not care about that side. And he. like many of these guys that know it, is getting older, he is now in his 80s.


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## jmf552 (Sep 4, 2021)

I studied Tai Chi for 15 years after getting my 3rd Dan in Shito Ryu. My main instructor was a tough inner city guy. He was a 4th Dan in Kyokushin Karate' before the got into Tai Chi, he had been in combat in Vietnam and made his fortune as a bail bondsman in the inner city of St. Louis. He made a fortune because he never had anyone fair to appear. Yet he was a short guy who didn't look intimidating at all. He could do stuff martially that did not seem possible. Call it Chi or whatever, but you could feel it. That is the good side. 

The bad side was he could make it work, and he could tell you why you couldn't make it work, but he could not get you to do it. I left because I had a hard think and realized I was not getting the results I wanted. I went back almost ten years after studying with him and worked out with the class. He was as good as ever, but his students I had studied with all those years were not any better. 

Tai Chi and "Mystical Chi Power" are real. But learning it is like jumping through the eye of a needle. There are a select few people who get it and everyone else is wasting their time. It is like all the monks in India who followed the Buddha trying to a achieve enlightenment. A few did. There were thousands of others who wasted their lives meditating in caves and never got it.


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## Unkogami (Sep 4, 2021)

I remember well one night that I realized the 'combat' aspects of taijiquan were applicable under full-on conditions. Very real-life street conditions.


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## FranciscoNegron (Sep 5, 2021)

I know Ashe Higgs is here in Tempe, so I’ll try to see if I can catch one of his Sunday morning classes. There seems to be a few low key internal instructions here (Tempe/Phoenix area) that teach in parks.


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## Buka (Sep 5, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> My shifu was a student of Tung Ying Chieh, he taught us the martial side as well. But as time went on he got more and more students who did not care about that side. And he. like many of these guys that know it, is getting older, he is now in his 80s.


Getting back to what I said about Billy's response to who was the toughest you ever trained under or worked with. What surprised me was how quickly he answered, not even thinking about it. And Billy's trained with just about everybody.

When Billy Blanks was a young black belt he ran his own school in Eire Pennsylvania. He had a lot of students and most of them competed. A gentleman (Master Chan) came in one day and told him his two children, a boy and a girl in their early teens, wanted to join a school and compete in tournaments, and asked Billy if he did that. He said yes.

The gentleman then asked, and I paraphrase, “Are you any good at what you do?”

Billy told him there are a lot of instructors in the area that have far more experience than he, himself, has, but we work hard, we’re always learning and his students are improving constantly.

The gentleman said, “I’ve visited all the schools around the area. You’re the first instructor that hasn’t told me how terrific he was. May I bring my children in tomorrow to start their training?” And he did.

Billy said they were great kids. Very relaxed, very attentive, very respectful and worked really hard.

Their father would drive them to the dojo and attentively watch class. Billy asked him several times, “Mister Chan, do you train Martial Arts?” He would always deflect the question and say he was "just interested.” He would also go to all the tournaments his children competed in. And closely watch Billy fight in the black belt division as well.

At one tournament, held in the gym of an old, broken down high school in Erie, just before Billy was to fight in the second round, Chan took him aside and told him (again, I’m paraphrasing) “When you fight your next opponent, use your kicks attacking from his lower right side moving up. His vision is poor there.” 
Billy looked at him, pointed and said “You DO train Martial Arts!” Chan just said “go fight.”

Billy did what Chan had said, and it worked perfectly. Before Billy's fight for first place Chan told him “Move your opponent to that corner of the floor, the floor is not strong there, he won’t be able to use the incredible spring of his legs.

Billy did and it worked as Chan said it would.

Afterwards Chan told him, yes, he did train in Martial Arts. Tai Chi, his whole life.

Billy started training under him that week. After a year, they moved to training outside. They went to a spot where there was a stream about eighteen inches deep. They would sit in the stream, Indian style, facing each other, Chan’s back to the current. Every time Billy told me the story his eyes would get big and he’d laugh. He said, “Oh, man, it was so f'n cold! My body was shivering so hard, my lips were blue, I couldn’t feel my feet!”

They would practice breathing and the flow of energy in the body, which Chan said Billy had little of.”

After several weeks, Billy would have his back to the current. He also told me Mister Chan had picked that stream because of an abundance of a particular kind of clay in parts of the spring bed. He would scoop out a bunch of it, put it into a pile and form it into a cube, slapping it tight as he built it. He then asked Billy to punch it as hard as he could.

Billy could hit hard. He’d smack it and leave a beautiful imprint of a fist. Chan would smack it and bury his fist almost to the bottom knuckle of his thumb. Billy’s eyes would go wide on that one, too.

He also told me that if Chan shoved you - you were going ash over tea kettle, that it was like getting bumped by a bus that didn’t quite stop in time.

I take it all as truth, Billy doesn’t talk trash about the Arts. And some may say that none of that has anything to do with fighting. But to me, everything has to do with fighting. Especially ways to improve and hone it.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 5, 2021)

Buka said:


> Getting back to what I said about Billy's response to who was the toughest you ever trained under or worked with. What surprised me was how quickly he answered, not even thinking about it. And Billy's trained with just about everybody.
> 
> When Billy Blanks was a young black belt he ran his own school in Eire Pennsylvania. He had a lot of students and most of them competed. A gentleman (Master Chan) came in one day and told him his two children, a boy and a girl in their early teens, wanted to join a school and compete in tournaments, and asked Billy if he did that. He said yes.
> 
> ...



Short and not as interesting story. I once asked my shifu what he would do if someone threw a jab at him. He said do it. I did but pulled it, he said no, punch me, so I tried. To this day I have no idea how I ended up standing behind him....I stood there surprised and befuddled....as he moved on to teach someone something else. Also once during push hands, with high pat, while being very relaxed, knocked me on the floor. Looked at me laying on the floor and said...Tung Hu Ling dod that to me once (Tung Hu Ling was his teachers oldest son)


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## FranciscoNegron (Sep 8, 2021)

Really, I enjoy hearing about how effective the art of Tai Chi Chuan TRULY is.


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## Balas Sermas (Nov 29, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> Tai Chi and "Mystical Chi Power" are real. But learning it is like jumping through the eye of a needle. There are a select few people who get it and everyone else is wasting their time. It is like all the monks in India who followed the Buddha trying to a achieve enlightenment. A few did. There were thousands of others who wasted their lives meditating in caves and never got it.



Then it is literally pointless in trying to learn it, instead you could masterfully perfect Muay Thai while you bother with still "learning" Tai Chi.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 29, 2021)

jmf552 said:


> The bad side was he could make it work, and he could tell you why you couldn't make it work, but he could not get you to do it.


Being able to do and being able to teach are two different skills.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 29, 2021)

Balas Sermas said:


> Then it is literally pointless in trying to learn it instead you could masterfully perfect Muay Thai while you bother with still "learning" Tai Chi.


I think you missed his point.  By more than two months.

And there is no such thing as masterfully perfecting Muay Thai, either.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 29, 2021)

FranciscoNegron said:


> It’s amazing that Taiji has everything, but isn’t taught or applied correctly.


Speak for yourself.  

And yes, Tai Chi is pretty amazing.  Way cooler than anything that's ever come out of Thailand.  NO offense, Thailand.


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## Balas Sermas (Nov 29, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Speak for yourself.
> 
> And yes, Tai Chi is pretty amazing.  Way cooler than anything that's ever come out of Thailand.  NO offense, Thailand.


Thai Chi is still entirerly ineffective despite your subjectively driven opinion and it doesn't matter if a martial art is "cooler" only it's effectiveness. Thai Chi actually suffers greatly from overally diverse fighting arsenal as it doesn't have true clinching techniques, punches to the head which are quintessentially important, deadly knee strikes, protectively solid guard and logically effective stance and etc. Muay Thai totally discredits it.

This is the objective reality, not A:TLA.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 29, 2021)

Balas Sermas said:


> Thai Chi is still entirerly ineffective despite your subjectively driven opinion and it doesn't matter if a martial art is "cooler" only it's effectiveness. Thai Chi actually suffers greatly from overally diverse fighting arsenal as it doesn't have true clinching techniques, punches to the head which are quintessentially important, deadly knee strikes, protectively solid guard and logically effective stance and etc. Muay Thai totally discredits it.
> 
> This is the objective reality, not A:TLA.



I don't know, Tai Chi produced Dudism which is far cooler than anything Thailand ever produced.

Muay Thai is pretty boring, in my own opinion.   Muay Boran is far more interesting.  But not remotely as interesting as the Tai Chi Fist.

When I think of "diverse fighting arsenal", Thai Boxing is last on my list.  Can you imagine why?  I'll give you a starting hint: Ramsey is wrong in a couple of places.  Watch the video again, and try to tell me why.


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## mograph (Nov 30, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> I don't know, Tai Chi produced Dudism which is far cooler than anything Thailand ever produced.


Abiding is yin.


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2021)

mograph said:


> Abiding is yin.


Unless it's yang.  

Yang abiding, woah.


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## mograph (Dec 2, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Unless it's yang.
> 
> Yang abiding, woah.


Dude.


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