# Man vs. Beast



## Cobra (Apr 14, 2004)

Martial Arts maybe effective against people who want to fight you, but what about crazy beasts who want to kill you in the wild. Sure you can have a  gun but what happens if you loose it, and you are in the middle of a forest or jungle.

It is imposable for a human to beat up lions, tiger, and bears (oh my) with their bare body because they are too big and strong, but what about large wolves, cougars, or leapords. Sure thay got big teeth or claws, but an average man is several times more stronger than any of them. Not to mention more flexible. As long as your are quick enough to avoid the mouth or claws and get around and wrestle the beast to the ground and do a armbar or something and break the ****ers leg (which will break easier than a human) crippling the beast and then kick in the head really hard a few times and it should do the trick. Isn't the whole point of martial arts to fight with no weapons? Or you can punch or kick or squeeze the throat causing instant death to any beast. I think that it can be done.

I have a huge 180 pound Great Dane and I'm am so used to wrestling with him when even he is at full strenght (and I mean biting at full force) that i have no fear of dogs of any size cause I am so used to getting bit. This is where I got the idea humans don't need weapons to beat beasts around the same weight (or little bigger) than us if you train at it.

What do you guys think. Also, is there any martial arts (like kung fu which is movements from animals) that deals solley with fighting animals like big wolvesand dogs or big cats (with the exeption of lions and tigers of coarse).


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## 7starmantis (Apr 14, 2004)

I think your post is riddled with disinformation and incorrect assumptions. 


			
				Cobra said:
			
		

> an average man is several times more stronger than any of them. Not to mention more flexible.





			
				Cobra said:
			
		

> do a armbar or something and break the ****ers leg (which will break easier than a human) crippling the beast and then kick in the head really hard a few times and it should do the trick.


Why do you believe man is stronger and more flexible than wild animals? Why do you believe wild animals bones will break easier than humans?

I think it is possible to defend yourself against an animal, ie kung fu was developed for that specific reason, but you must know your limitations and you better get some better sources.

7sm


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## Cruentus (Apr 14, 2004)

Against a lot of animals, your pretty well screwed.

A large cat like a lion weighs between 450 and 550lbs. 

A Bear weighs a lot more.

Weight isn't even the half of it. A chimpanzee (who weighs less then the average human) is estimated to be 10 times stronger then the average human.

Even smaller animals like Dogs, wolves, or cougers all have teeth and claws.

Sorry to break it to you, but if your Great Dane saw you as food, then you'd be missing some serious skin. I don't think your dog has bitten you as hard as he is able too.


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## Cobra (Apr 14, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I think your post is riddled with disinformation and incorrect assumptions.
> 
> Why do you believe man is stronger and more flexible than wild animals? Why do you believe wild animals bones will break easier than humans?
> 
> ...


It is true actually deponding on the animal. Primates (including humans) are several times stronger than animals around the same weight. And if you notice, for eample dogs arms are more brittle and can't flex as much (like do the splits).

Also, did you guys know that a boxer punch is more powerful than an average tiger or lion bite? Tiger or lions can have 1,000 pounds bite pressure but a boxer's punch can be 1,500-2,500 pounds of pressure. I'm not saying and unarmed human can beat a lion or tiger because they are way too big and strong, but against a smaller weaker animal like a wolf or a cougar I think it is possible if we can avoid the sharp teeth and get around and some how get the throat (which will instantly kill any beast) or keep punching it in the back of the head (which would knock any beast out).


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## Cobra (Apr 14, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> Against a lot of animals, your pretty well screwed.
> 
> A large cat like a lion weighs between 450 and 550lbs.
> 
> ...


Not lions, tigers, and bears (oh my). I know they are way too strong. I'm talking about wolves or cougars or dogs. They may have claws and teeth, but the stragety is to avoid the teeth and the claws and get around the beast.

I know chimpanzes are several time stronger than a human, but again i said APES are stronger than other organisms their size. I didn't mean we are the strongest ape (which we are the weakest). And when it comes to a chimpanzee fight. Martial Arts would be effective considering there bodies are 90% similar to ours no matter how strong he is (Having a lot of strenght does gaurantee you a win). And also remeber that is arm strenght. Are legs are equally as strong as a chimp's arms. We can't lift heavy loads with them like chimps with there arms because we can't grasp with our feet and you need grasping power to lift things and it's our legs so it is harder to lift thing lying down.


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## MA-Caver (Apr 14, 2004)

Cobra said:
			
		

> Not lions, tigers, and bears (oh my). I know they are way too strong. I'm talking about wolves or cougars or dogs. They may have claws and teeth, but the stragety is to avoid the teeth and the claws and get around the beast.
> 
> I know chimpanzes are several time stronger than a human, but again i said APES are stronger than other organisms their size. I didn't mean we are the strongest ape (which we are the weakest). And when it comes to a chimpanzee fight. Martial Arts would be effective considering there bodies are 90% similar to ours no matter how strong he is (Having a lot of strenght does gaurantee you a win). And also remeber that is arm strenght. Are legs are equally as strong as a chimp's arms. We can't lift heavy loads with them like chimps with there arms because we can't grasp with our feet and you need grasping power to lift things and it's our legs so it is harder to lift thing lying down.



Hmm what color is the sky on your planet? 
I think you're in the realm of wild speculation. An average human being (and how about we define specifically the word "average" hmm?) is generally helpless against (large) animals which some have sharp teeth, sharp claws and faster reflexes, a natural instinct for killing...  
Wolves and cougars and other like mammals are faster than humans by any margin. Wolves generally travel and hunt in packs so you don't have just one to face but sometimes more than half a dozen, and a lone-wolf is one to definitely avoid because it just-might-be-rabid. 
Cougars while generally shy of humans do attack them, but these are probably animals that are either protecting young, or sick, or extremely hungry. They're not small. They're not slow. They have the capability of pulling down a full grown deer and dragging said dead deer across difficult terrian for miles ... often UP-hill.

How often would you find yourself in a situation facing a predatory mammal? I hike in the mountains (of Utah) very frequently and often very far from the nearest city (and *never* alone) and occasionally have found signs (tracks and scat) of a large predator ... this includes bob-cats and lynxs and wolverines (yes we got 'em). But have rarely...very rarely seen one and they're usually at a distance of 100' or more and very often traveling in the opposite direction. 
Non-predatory animals I've seen by the score and it's a thrilling moment to be sure. 

Because man using his greatest weapon(s), firearms has the nasty habit of causing near genocide of a particular species of "dangerous" animal. This has gone on for quite a while and the "fear of man" is a common thing among (any wild) animals in the lower 48. 

It's something not worth worrying about. Something to be cautious about however if you're in the wild but not a major worry. 

 :asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 14, 2004)

While in Yosemite, a friend and myself were out on the trails. The sun went down. We were on our way back it was dark. We were being stalked by a large animal. I did see it, once as a large cat, most likely cougar. Before I saw it, I heard it. I think it was curious and keeping an eye on us for being in its' back yard. I grabbed a long stick, and started to drag it behind me, to make a noise. I would occasional pick it up from behind me and twirl it to see my range and also to  thump it on the ground. Did it help? The animal was stalking us from further away. I am no small male, and I would not wish to deal with such an animal. I would do my best if required yet it is something I would not go looking for, nor expect to survive unhurt. 

Maybe it is the fact that I have played with small cats and seen my forearms bleed from their claws. One swipe just like a knife is all it takes, and then the animal smells blood, and if not before now its instincts take over to hunt.

Respect the animals for what they are. Just my thoughts.


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## 7starmantis (Apr 14, 2004)

You had me going for a while there Cobra. I am beggining to realize the jest of this thread and see it for its trollish attributes. I really don't think your serious at all, but if you are, please, please do soem research and get some education, it can take you places.


7sm


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## Cobra (Apr 14, 2004)

MACaver said:
			
		

> Hmm what color is the sky on your planet?
> I think you're in the realm of wild speculation. An average human being (and how about we define specifically the word "average" hmm?) is generally helpless against (large) animals which some have sharp teeth, sharp claws and faster reflexes, a natural instinct for killing...
> Wolves and cougars and other like mammals are faster than humans by any margin. Wolves generally travel and hunt in packs so you don't have just one to face but sometimes more than half a dozen, and a lone-wolf is one to definitely avoid because it just-might-be-rabid.
> Cougars while generally shy of humans do attack them, but these are probably animals that are either protecting young, or sick, or extremely hungry. They're not small. They're not slow. They have the capability of pulling down a full grown deer and dragging said dead deer across difficult terrian for miles ... often UP-hill.
> ...


Wait a second! Have you ever heard of a tiger fighter. They live in Malysia, Thaiwon (I know I didn't spell that right), and Korea? They actually fight tigers and beat them. I am not lying! They have very good leg strength which they use to cling to a tiger's back and then they punch them in the back of the neck continualy which will eventually knock them out. It can also be done with bulls and you inarmed humans can kill them (I'm not joking around!). 

Check out this image (the bull was out cold);
http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/~aoki/Kickboxing/oyama/Oyama_bull.jpg

And about cougars. Do you know their bite pressure at rest? 300 pounds! That is pitiful compared to a human punch (if you know the right way to punch). Cougars can however get thousands of pounds if they are at full speed, but I mean when a cougar not doing a suprise attack.

Trust me on this, humans are not as helpless as you think! Many people have to get out of their heads, just because you don't have sharp claws or teeth, doesn't mean they can't defend themselves unarmed against wild animals.


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## Cobra (Apr 14, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> You had me going for a while there Cobra. I am beggining to realize the jest of this thread and see it for its trollish attributes. I really don't think your serious at all, but if you are, please, please do soem research and get some education, it can take you places.
> 
> 
> 7sm


I am serious, and have done research on this topic. Look at the image in the post above.


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## KenpoTex (Apr 15, 2004)

Cobra said:
			
		

> It is imposable for a human to beat up lions, tiger, and bears (oh my) with their bare body because they are too big and strong, but what about large wolves, cougars, or leapords. Sure thay got big teeth or claws, but an average man is several times more stronger than any of them.


Dude, When was the last time you saw a full-grown cougar?  the things get BIG.  Leopards are known for their tremendous strength, in fact, after killing antelopes and such they drag them up into a tree to eat in peace, I'd like to see a person pick up a 150 lb. antelope and THEN climb 15 up into a tree carrying the animal in their jaws.



			
				Cobra said:
			
		

> I'm not saying and unarmed human can beat a lion or tiger because they are way too big and strong, but against a smaller weaker animal like a wolf or a cougar I think it is possible if we can avoid the sharp teeth and get around and some how get the throat (which will instantly kill any beast) or keep punching it in the back of the head (which would knock any beast out).





			
				Cobra said:
			
		

> Trust me on this, humans are not as helpless as you think! Many people have to get out of their heads, just because you don't have sharp claws or teeth, doesn't mean they can't defend themselves unarmed against wild animals.


"Unarmed wild animals?"  what do you call the teeth and claws?  While you are trying (in vain) to choke them or bop them on the head the weak little "unarmed" animals are going to eviscerate you with their little claws.  
  When I lived in Colorado I knew a guy who was attacked by a Bobcat.  Bobcats are about the size of a medium-sized dog.  Anyway, the little devil cut the guy to shreds, he almost died just from the blood-loss from his encounter with the natural razor-blades attached to the things feet.  All this from a "cute little kitty-cat."
  If you want to prove your hypothesis why don't we engage in a little empiracle research?  You go out and find yourself a cougar and do something to tick it off so you can play "crocodile hunter." Then if you, by some sort of divine intervention, manage to survive, come back and tell us about it.


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## someguy (Apr 15, 2004)

Claws and teeth equate to lots of knifes that are part of their bodies.
We were not made to fight animals barehanded or we would be less likely to have as great of technology as we do today.  We would not have needed stone tools as much so it would have probably taken long to get anywhere.
Anmimals are made to be stronger than us and faster than us in some cases.  
In a 1 on 1 fight I'd rather take a human with a knife that an animal on anyday.


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## kenpo12 (Apr 15, 2004)

Cobra,

  Please tell me you are posting this just to get people riled up.  If not, you really know nothing about animals.


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## OULobo (Apr 15, 2004)

I know everyone has already decided that our friend Cobra is wrong, but lets re-examine the general topic. The human body is an amazing machine. While it's greatest asset is it's inteligence, let's not discount it's physical capabilities and how intelligence can allow more efficient use of those capabilities. Even excluding tools like knives and rocks, humans have a body frame that is indeed relatively strong and highly flexible. There are few other creatures in the world that have the arm range of motion or the leg strength proportional to frame size/body weight that humans exhibit. I wouldn't want to test any of these weapons against the hunters of nature, as Kempotex suggested, but that doesn't mean they aren't valid and effective weapons within nature. Crocodiles, snakes, bulls, sharks, even lions and cougars, are creatures that unarmed men/women have varifiably been able to defend against. I'll not go so far as to say that an unarmed human will be able to successfully attack any of these creatures if they are cornered, and I won't say that an unarmed man will always be able to effectivey defend against one, but I do think he has a damn good chance. 

I think I would stay away from the whole choking idea, because many animals have large and strong neck muscles capable of withstanding a significant amount of pressure. I would venture to say, however, that there are few animals that can withstand an well placed and adrenaline laden kick from a human. Let's not discount that humans bite is still very powerful in direct comparison to the rest of the animal kingdom.

PS I know it is nitpicky, but pounds (lbs) is not a unit of pressure, it's a unit of mass or weight. Pressure is generally measured, in english units, in pounds per square inch (psi) or Pascals in metric.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 15, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> Cobra,
> 
> Please tell me you are posting this just to get people riled up.  If not, you really know nothing about animals.


Never say never. If you are confronted by a lone wolf and you have already convinced yourself you cant win, then, by golly, you are gonna die. However there are ways to fight animals. A good solid knee stike to the chest of a  charging wolf will kill the animal. Good luck with that one, but you could at least try. Getting on an animals back is your best bet with bears and Mountain lions, but a knife would be extreemly usefull at that point. Perhaps a stick could be shoved lenghtwise down there throat from behind. Zebras and wilderbeast kick and break the jaws of lions all the time; however, they have buddies ready to seal off your escape route. Any whoo, the belief you can't win is what will defeat you more than teeth and claws.
Sean


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## kenpo12 (Apr 15, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> I know everyone has already decided that our friend Cobra is wrong, but lets re-examine the general topic. The human body is an amazing machine. While it's greatest asset is it's inteligence, let's not discount it's physical capabilities and how intelligence can allow more efficient use of those capabilities. Even excluding tools like knives and rocks, humans have a body frame that is indeed relatively strong and highly flexible. There are few other creatures in the world that have the arm range of motion or the leg strength proportional to frame size/body weight that humans exhibit. I wouldn't want to test any of these weapons against the hunters of nature, as Kempotex suggested, but that doesn't mean they aren't valid and effective weapons within nature. Crocodiles, snakes, bulls, sharks, even lions and cougars, are creatures that unarmed men/women have varifiably been able to defend against. I'll not go so far as to say that an unarmed human will be able to successfully attack any of these creatures if they are cornered, and I won't say that an unarmed man will always be able to effectivey defend against one, but I do think he has a damn good chance.
> 
> I think I would stay away from the whole choking idea, because many animals have large and strong neck muscles capable of withstanding a significant amount of pressure. I would venture to say, however, that there are few animals that can withstand an well placed and adrenaline laden kick from a human. Let's not discount that humans bite is still very powerful in direct comparison to the rest of the animal kingdom.
> 
> PS I know it is nitpicky, but pounds (lbs) is not a unit of pressure, it's a unit of mass or weight. Pressure is generally measured, in english units, in pounds per square inch (psi) or Pascals in metric.



I see what you are saying but there is one major flaw in your reasoning.  The human body is an amazing piece of machinery but in most cases is not longer used to maximum efficiency when our animal counter parts do use their bodies for what they were intended, hunting and killing.  Most people nowadays sit behind a desk 40hrs a week and maybe get 4 - 10 hours of exersize a week.  You pit that against an animal who spends almost every waking hour doing something physical including, chasing prey, killing, hiding, evading other predators, etc.  The weapons that we have are our equalizer, not our muscles.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 15, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> I see what you are saying but there is one major flaw in your reasoning.  The human body is an amazing piece of machinery but in most cases is not longer used to maximum efficiency when our animal counter parts do use their bodies for what they were intended, hunting and killing.  Most people nowadays sit behind a desk 40hrs a week and maybe get 4 - 10 hours of exersize a week.  You pit that against an animal who spends almost every waking hour doing something physical including, chasing prey, killing, hiding, evading other predators, etc.  The weapons that we have are our equalizer, not our muscles.


But we aren't talking about your average couch potato. Let me, at least, throw in Mike Pick, Jet lee, or a Gene Lebel type maybe. Now bring on those mangey muts.
Sean


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 15, 2004)

Cobra said:
			
		

> Wait a second! Have you ever heard of a tiger fighter. They live in Malysia, Thaiwon (I know I didn't spell that right), and Korea? They actually fight tigers and beat them. I am not lying! They have very good leg strength which they use to cling to a tiger's back and then they punch them in the back of the neck continualy which will eventually knock them out. It can also be done with bulls and you inarmed humans can kill them (I'm not joking around!).
> 
> Check out this image (the bull was out cold);
> http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/~aoki/Kickboxing/oyama/Oyama_bull.jpg
> ...




I never said Humans are sheep waiting to get killed.

I never said it was impossible.

Just very difficult. Their speed and strength and natural instinct are factors to be concerned about.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 15, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> I know everyone has already decided that our friend Cobra is wrong, but lets re-examine the general topic. The human body is an amazing machine. While it's greatest asset is it's inteligence, let's not discount it's physical capabilities and how intelligence can allow more efficient use of those capabilities. Even excluding tools like knives and rocks, humans have a body frame that is indeed relatively strong and highly flexible. There are few other creatures in the world that have the arm range of motion or the leg strength proportional to frame size/body weight that humans exhibit. I wouldn't want to test any of these weapons against the hunters of nature, as Kempotex suggested, but that doesn't mean they aren't valid and effective weapons within nature. Crocodiles, snakes, bulls, sharks, even lions and cougars, are creatures that unarmed men/women have varifiably been able to defend against. I'll not go so far as to say that an unarmed human will be able to successfully attack any of these creatures if they are cornered, and I won't say that an unarmed man will always be able to effectivey defend against one, but I do think he has a damn good chance.
> 
> I think I would stay away from the whole choking idea, because many animals have large and strong neck muscles capable of withstanding a significant amount of pressure. I would venture to say, however, that there are few animals that can withstand an well placed and adrenaline laden kick from a human. Let's not discount that humans bite is still very powerful in direct comparison to the rest of the animal kingdom.
> 
> PS I know it is nitpicky, but pounds (lbs) is not a unit of pressure, it's a unit of mass or weight. Pressure is generally measured, in english units, in pounds per square inch (psi) or Pascals in metric.




Hence the use of a stick to act like a tail, and to swing it around to keep the animal off guard.  This was using the brain or intelligence, in my mind. The watching the animal when it got close to let it know I knew it was there.

I just do not think it is as easy as Cobra makes it out to.

I will take this one step at a time.

Give me a knife. He has his punch. I get one knife. Just one, not 8 front knives and 10 rear knives and teeth.

I get one knife.

He gets his body.

To believe he can disarm me and man handle me without getting hurt, is a mistake, that could be deadly. 

I was trying to let Cobra think about it.

He has his thoughts. We might differ in opinions, and one of our attitudes might get someone hurt. I present that me being more cautious and respecting the possibility, I have the better chance of not getting hurt. My opinion.

Enjoy
 :asian:


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## Blindside (Apr 15, 2004)

I know one fellow who was jumped by a cougar and managed to get out of it with only a few bites punctures in his pectoral.  Long story, and not mine, so I'm not going to retell it, but sure, anything is possible, just not probable, or even a marginally good idea.

Regarding cougars, if you have spent anytime outdoors in cougar country you have probably been watched by a cougar, in many cases you will never know.  Like any cat they are curious and investigate what these weird two-legged things are doing.  We generally don't look like prey, most people who get attacked are joggers who go running by a cougar, it triggers their "hunt down fleeing prey" drive, and they go after the person.  If you see a cougar, don't act like prey, and don't turn your back on it.  In tiger country (which can be man hunters) some natives wear hats with big eyes on the back, it is supposed to make the tiger think you are facing them.

A large black bear outweighs me by double, is stronger, and has to kill its food with its uh, bear paws for several years.  Personally, I think I'd rather get into a fight with Bob Sapp, who is pretty comparable in weight, not that I would fare much better.

And Cobra, if your dog was truly wanting to hurt you, it would have.  What you were doing was play and you both knew it, or at least he did, otherwise you would have lots of nifty chunks of flesh missing.

Lamont


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## kenpo12 (Apr 15, 2004)

Whatever, why don't you ask the family of the young man who was killed just a couple months ago in Southern California.  Was attacked by a 40lb Mountain Lion while changing the chain on his bicycle.  He wasn't a little tiny guy and he was very physically fit.  He was at least 4 times the Mountain Lions weight.  I don't know exactly how it happened but somehow I don't think he just let the ML kill him.


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## OULobo (Apr 15, 2004)

Or how bout you ask the woman who managed to make (presumably) the same cougar in the same park on the same trail leave without attacking her after it attacked her friend a few days after it killed the guy you are mentioning. There aren't many animal attacks in the world because most predators don't think that humans are worth the trouble. I have to agree with them, we are tougher than most people think.


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## 7starmantis (Apr 15, 2004)

I believe it is very possible to defend yourself against animals, I just had a problem with the false information Cobra was using to build his confidence in himself. Defending yourself against an animal you allready know is a fight or die situation. Most times the animals will be as strong if not stronger than yourself and alot quicker. Its about getting yourself out of the situation. I don't think tackling the animal and trying to choke it out is a good strategy, but I've never really tried it.

7sm


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## Cobra (Apr 15, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> Whatever, why don't you ask the family of the young man who was killed just a couple months ago in Southern California.  Was attacked by a 40lb Mountain Lion while changing the chain on his bicycle.  He wasn't a little tiny guy and he was very physically fit.  He was at least 4 times the Mountain Lions weight.  I don't know exactly how it happened but somehow I don't think he just let the ML kill him.



I have been attacked by a cougar before while hiking and killed it! It was on the radio! It was two years ago form Redwood Valley, California. Probably the station was heard only in my area. And, okay it was with a 10 inch knife, but I found many weakness. 

You guys don't probably believe me but it is true. How I won was; 

First, I wasn't ambushed. I know if I was I wouldn't have survived to tell this story. He came up on me (I'm not sure why) and just stared at me. I stared back not ever taking my eyes off and slowly waled backwards slowly taking out my knife. Then he attaked me by bitting my arm because I lunged at him with the knife when he charged (I was wondering why he never went for neck) then I kicked his leg and got him in the Rear Naked Choke and quickly cut his thraot with me knife. He didn't seem that strong then. And it was a full grown female cougar that weighed 185 pounds.

Why did I win? It wasn't cause I'm a black belt in martial arts (which I am close to) or I wasn't super strong. I know a lot about cougars and I knew if I kicked his front leg he would go down like a table which has lost one of it's legs. But that is my point! Human greatest strenght is there mind and I was intelligent enough about cougars to know it's weakness. If you know how they react, then you would know what to do. 

I may of had a 10 inch knife, but I'm sure i wouldn't have to use any less pressure to crush the windpipe. For humans it 1/2 pound of pressure. If a cougars is more, let us say 10 times more, it would be 5 pounds of pressure which isn't much more. Abd like I said before, you guys may or may not believe me but I abhore the idea that some of you guys think humans are so helpless.


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## OULobo (Apr 15, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> I see what you are saying but there is one major flaw in your reasoning.  The human body is an amazing piece of machinery but in most cases is not longer used to maximum efficiency when our animal counter parts do use their bodies for what they were intended, hunting and killing.  Most people nowadays sit behind a desk 40hrs a week and maybe get 4 - 10 hours of exersize a week.  You pit that against an animal who spends almost every waking hour doing something physical including, chasing prey, killing, hiding, evading other predators, etc.  The weapons that we have are our equalizer, not our muscles.



That's the truth. It's a shame that people are so out of touch with their bodies.


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## KennethKu (Apr 16, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> .....Getting on an animals back is your best bet with bears and Mountain lions, ......



A grown bear can break a cow's back with one swipe.  Good luck to ya.


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## 7starmantis (Apr 16, 2004)

This thread =  


7sm


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## geometry (Apr 16, 2004)

Cobra you are the Master Killer!

This thread must be archived, please.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 16, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> A grown bear can break a cow's back with one swipe.  Good luck to ya.


Its better than trying to reason with the animal, from what I understand there not to tough with the English langauage. I suppose laying down and playing dead while the bear feasts on you sounds like the better alternative, but a grizzly will break into your house and kill you for food if he's hungry enough. Bon appetite'


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## Cruentus (Apr 16, 2004)

I'll fight any animal if nessicary.

But, to sit here in a conversation and discredit the factor of strengh, wieght, weapons and killing/hunting experience of these animals bacause your unstoppable spin-kick will rule the day is pretty niave(wtf? Nye-eve).

The fact of the matter is, animals have built in weapons, and that is how they survive.

We have a built in weapon, too, and it's called our brains.

So, if I decide to "fight" a wild dog, couger, or bear empty-handed, then I am not using my built in weapon.

And, if I decide to put myself in a situation where I have the stong possability of running into a wild animal, and I have no effective escape method, or weapon available, then I am definatily not using my built in weapon.

Just a thought.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 16, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> I'll fight any animal if nessicary.
> 
> But, to sit here in a conversation and discredit the factor of strengh, wieght, weapons and killing/hunting experience of these animals bacause your unstoppable spin-kick will rule the day is pretty niave(wtf? Nye-eve).
> 
> ...


Fishermen in the northwest encounter wildlife all the time. Mostly they just sit still and hope the animal goes away, and mostly they do. Some carry a gun, but don't have it in there hand when need be. These aren't stupid people, but things happen.
Sean (www.iemat.com)


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## Cruentus (Apr 16, 2004)

Cobra said:
			
		

> I have been attacked by a cougar before while hiking and killed it! It was on the radio! It was two years ago form Redwood Valley, California. Probably the station was heard only in my area. And, okay it was with a 10 inch knife, but I found many weakness.
> 
> You guys don't probably believe me but it is true. How I won was;
> 
> ...



I can relate. I once had a pack of cougers on my tail, while I was jogging near area 51. There was 12 of them. They were each 350 lbs or so, and they had missles attached to their backs. These missles were controlled by their minds. This was part of a new government experiment where cougers were pumped up with steroids and had mind controlled missles attached to their backs; except these cougers had escaped, and were going to pillage all the nearby towns, looting and and gang raping everything in site! I had to stop them....except I had gone jogging, in the nude (I always jog in the nude), and I only had a 1 1/2 inch bladed neck-knife on me! The Alpha male fired the first missle, which I safely deflected with my knife, breaking the knife! I was weaponless, and naked as a newborn. But, I was able to survive, man. Not because I have 15 black-belts in secret jungle styles, and not because I can bench 600 lbs (which I can, btw, because I am so frikin sweet). i won sheerly on my knowledge of cougers. I did my PHd disertation on the animal, so I know his weaknesses! When you have 3 PHd's, 15 black belts in secret jungle styles, AND can bench 600lbs, 12 roided up Cougers with Missles are NO MATCH. 

Using my vast knowledge, I knew that a Cougers weakness was his throat, which only takes, like 1/2 lb of preassure to crush (my 2nd PHd was on the human anatomy). My only problem was the missles. Luckily (Because my third Doctorate was in Rocket Perpelsion Systems) I also knew that with correct technique, it only takes 1/4 a pound of @$$ strength to catch a missle in between bare-@$$ cheeks, and it takes 5 pounds of pressure to blow a missle back out of the @$$ just hard enough to hit the couger in the throat and kill it, without exploding the missle (or hemroiding). 

So I did this 12 times with ease, in what I call the "Rear naked ***-choke" technique, killing the mutated beasts. The government then came in blackhawks. The Army covered up the couger experiment, and they sent me off to train the military in fort benning.

Crazzy MAAAN. I tell ya...F-in Crazy! But ya see...the human mind can always overcome!


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## Cruentus (Apr 16, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Fishermen in the northwest encounter wildlife all the time. Mostly they just sit still and hope the animal goes away, and mostly they do. Some carry a gun, but don't have it in there hand when need be. These aren't stupid people, but things happen.
> Sean (www.iemat.com)



The thing that should happend is they should have a method of protecting themselves if needed. But hey, what do I know.  :ultracool


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## Blindside (Apr 16, 2004)

Cobra,

Indexed from this page is a list of confirmed cougar attacks from 1890 to the present.  The incident that I mentioned in May of 1996, where is yours?

http://users.frii.com/mytymyk/lions/

The accounts are pretty amazing, including an encounter with at least one martial artist.

Lamont


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## Cobra (Apr 16, 2004)

geometry said:
			
		

> Cobra you are the Master Killer!
> 
> This thread must be archived, please.


What so you mean?


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## Cobra (Apr 16, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> I can relate. I once had a pack of cougers on my tail, while I was jogging near area 51. There was 12 of them. They were each 350 lbs or so, and they had missles attached to their backs. These missles were controlled by their minds. This was part of a new government experiment where cougers were pumped up with steroids and had mind controlled missles attached to their backs; except these cougers had escaped, and were going to pillage all the nearby towns, looting and and gang raping everything in site! I had to stop them....except I had gone jogging, in the nude (I always jog in the nude), and I only had a 1 1/2 inch bladed neck-knife on me! The Alpha male fired the first missle, which I safely deflected with my knife, breaking the knife! I was weaponless, and naked as a newborn. But, I was able to survive, man. Not because I have 15 black-belts in secret jungle styles, and not because I can bench 600 lbs (which I can, btw, because I am so frikin sweet). i won sheerly on my knowledge of cougers. I did my PHd disertation on the animal, so I know his weaknesses! When you have 3 PHd's, 15 black belts in secret jungle styles, AND can bench 600lbs, 12 roided up Cougers with Missles are NO MATCH.
> 
> Using my vast knowledge, I knew that a Cougers weakness was his throat, which only takes, like 1/2 lb of preassure to crush (my 2nd PHd was on the human anatomy). My only problem was the missles. Luckily (Because my third Doctorate was in Rocket Perpelsion Systems) I also knew that with correct technique, it only takes 1/4 a pound of @$$ strength to catch a missle in between bare-@$$ cheeks, and it takes 5 pounds of pressure to blow a missle back out of the @$$ just hard enough to hit the couger in the throat and kill it, without exploding the missle (or hemroiding).
> 
> ...


Hah hah, very funny. I know you think I am lying don't you?


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## Cobra (Apr 16, 2004)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Cobra,
> 
> Indexed from this page is a list of confirmed cougar attacks from 1890 to the present. The incident that I mentioned in May of 1996, where is yours?
> 
> ...


I do not know, it should be there if it does have everything. Does the site owner have a e-mail? 

Heck, I knew know would believe me. That is why I never brought this story up, and I probably shouldn't. If you don't believe me that is fine, but I don't like it when pople like people like that one guy about the mutated cougar with missiles. I was serious when I said that, and it would of been okay if that guy just said he doesn't believe me instead of making that dumb story up.


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## Blindside (Apr 16, 2004)

I can understand the quote about mutated cougars, in your post you said:



> And it was a full grown female cougar that weighed 185 pounds.



Do you realize that female cougar averages about 100 pounds and that one of the largest on record only weighed 130?  So not only did you get into a fight with a cougar, you killed one that would qualify for Boone and Crockett status with your knife.  I can't imagine why he is skeptical.

Lamont


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## Cobra (Apr 17, 2004)

Blindside said:
			
		

> I can understand the quote about mutated cougars, in your post you said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know, that is what they told me. Maybe they are the wrong ones. 

You know what though, I probably shouldn't have posted this at all. No one believes me anyway and people now probably vision me as a lier. That is why I didn't post it on the startin post. If anyone reads this message, just forget I even ran into a cougar.


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## bluenosekenpo (Apr 17, 2004)

wow, this is one of the most amusing threads i've ever read, man against beast? i can only hope that you folks are jerking our collective chain, so to that challenge, i respond, things that kill;

*dogs*- bite = 750-1200psi - call rover over and look in his mouth, see the 4 sharp and pointy things, we callem canines (hmmm, wonder why?), look at the tips, for arguments sake thats about 1/4"sq, wouldn't that mean (don't flame me for my math) you now have ~3-4000psi? look at a breed like a bull terrier, why do they call it that? because they used them to attack full grown bulls by clamping it onto its nose and not letting go until one of them died! if that terrier(50-100lbs) took a fancy to your arm, you really think you'd kick his ***? probably not.

*wolves*-are timid, shy creatures that rarely if ever attack humans. if they did,then read the paragraph above and multiply by x, or an analogy, dogs are logistic clerks in a naval reserve unit, wolves are navy seals.

*lions,bears and other things that bite*- all of these animals are predators. they are killers, that is what they do, it's what they are, they are physically our superior in every way! taste, smell, touch, sight, hearing, speed, agility, reaction time, strength!

*things that gore*- with genuine respect to mas oyama, i don't think he ever fought a wild water buffalo(kills more people in africa than any other animal), crazy texas longhorn or massive brahma bull. i was chased once by a small brahma bull, nothing enhances your senses like hearing hooves and snorts getting closer as you repeat to yourself,(feets don't fail me now!). i remember seeing a video of a hunter getting stomped and gored by a horney whitetail buck! imagine if it had sharp teeth and claws!

*things that swim*- if you think you can take on the animal kingdom on land, why not water? sharks, eels, rays, barracuda, pirannhas, etc.

anyway this has been alot of fun, but i gotta go, let's do it again, ok? opcorn:


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## Cruentus (Apr 17, 2004)

Cobra said:
			
		

> I do not know, it should be there if it does have everything. Does the site owner have a e-mail?
> 
> Heck, I knew know would believe me. That is why I never brought this story up, and I probably shouldn't. If you don't believe me that is fine, but I don't like it when pople like people like that one guy about the mutated cougar with missiles. I was serious when I said that, and it would of been okay if that guy just said he doesn't believe me instead of making that dumb story up.



I hope I wasn't too terribly offensive with my little joke-post; obviously I was only kidding, so for any of you who might have taken me too seriously or who might have gotten "offended" by it, all I have to say is, "Come on!" No one should truely take my sense of humor or themselves that seriously to be offended by a post such as that one, and if you do then you probably have some major issues that go beyond anything that I could say online.

Having said that, no Cobra, I don't believe you.

For one, I already knew that 185 lbs. would be unbelievably large for a female couger (as Lemont pointed out) not to mention that the story in general reeks of fantasy. Your posts, at least thus far in this thread, remind me of this article: http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/vtg.htm

Now, you've told the story. You've admitted that it is far fetched, and that it was likely that people wouldn't believe you, so you shouldn't be offended or suprised to find out that people don't. Now, if you want people to believe your story, and because YOU made the claim, then the burden of Proof is on YOU. 

You mentioned that it was covered by a news article? Scan a photo of the article and paste it up here, along with a scanned copy of some I.D. so that we know that it is you, and show us where it colaborates with Lemonts link to confirmed attacks. Then, maybe, I'll start to believe you. But until you can offer some evidence, then I will continue to believe that you're outright lying.

As this relates to my joke....how do you feel right now? Do you feel BETTER because I was a bit more honest and serious in my opinions? You see, my joke was making light of a situation, and letting you know that yes, myself and others think your story is far fetched, but I am willing to make light of it and move on. That wasn't good enough for you, so you critiqued me for kidding around instead of honestly disagreeing with you. So, do you feel better now that I have been "more serious"? Probably not. So maybe you and others may now begin to understand why making light of a situation is sometimes more appropriate.

As for this thread, I think I am done now.

Thank you, 

PAUL  :asian:


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## Cobra (Apr 17, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> I hope I wasn't too terribly offensive with my little joke-post; obviously I was only kidding, so for any of you who might have taken me too seriously or who might have gotten "offended" by it, all I have to say is, "Come on!" No one should truely take my sense of humor or themselves that seriously to be offended by a post such as that one, and if you do then you probably have some major issues that go beyond anything that I could say online.
> 
> Having said that, no Cobra, I don't believe you.
> 
> ...


I know it was a joke (that is why I said Hah ha). But usally when people say jokes, they say what they think at the end. I wasn't really offended, but it kinda seemed weird that at the end you call me a Cra*zy F**er is what kinda made me mad. Where you calling me that, or was it apart of the joke.

As far as proving, it wasn't a news article, it was on the local radio a couple of times and that was it. If you know a site that has all the radio broacasting for the past two years, maybe that would help giving proof.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 17, 2004)

Cobra said:
			
		

> I know it was a joke (that is why I said Hah ha). But usally when people say jokes, they say what they think at the end. I wasn't really offended, but it kinda seemed weird that at the end you call me a Cra*zy F**er is what kinda made me mad. Where you calling me that, or was it apart of the joke.
> 
> As far as proving, it wasn't a news article, it was on the local radio a couple of times and that was it. If you know a site that has all the radio broacasting for the past two years, maybe that would help giving proof.



Please provide the call letters for the radio statio.

Radio stations tape their broadcasts. Then they are stored for for legal reasons. In case someone calls and complains or makes a complaint to the FCC. Then the Radio station can have an exact copy of what was sent out over the air waves. 

So, please provide the call letters and or affliation and then we can request a copy of the tape. It would be easier if you also provided the date of about when it was broadcasted. This would make the search that much easier.

Thank You
 :asian:


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## KenpoTex (Apr 18, 2004)

Another option vis a vis providing proof to back-up your story would be police reports or hospital records (I'm assuminng you reported it right or received med. attention since it bit you?) or something from the Parks & Wildlife/Conservation Dept.  If it was on the radio the police/game-wardens are going to have something and I find it hard to believe there wasn't anything about it it a local paper but I could be wrong there.


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## KennethKu (Apr 18, 2004)

Last year in Canada, an old man was attacked by a mountain lion. He was badly mauled. But he killed the cat with his knife.

However,  little boys who play with their dogs somehow fantasize that they could kill wild beasts are no different from some wishfull idiots who fantasize about taming predators by jumping onto their backs.  " I AM TARZAN!!!!!!!"


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## Cruentus (Apr 19, 2004)

Cobra said:
			
		

> I know it was a joke (that is why I said Hah ha). But usally when people say jokes, they say what they think at the end. I wasn't really offended, but it kinda seemed weird that at the end you call me a Cra*zy F**er is what kinda made me mad. Where you calling me that, or was it apart of the joke.



Just to clarify, here is what I said:



> Crazzy MAAAN. I tell ya...F-in Crazy! But ya see...the human mind can always overcome!



I don't think I am calling anyone anything in my post. So, no, I haven't resorted to name calling so far. I just wanted to clarify that point so there won't be any misunderstanding.

In terms of proof; radio station transcripts, medical records, or whatever. If you say something "out of the ordinary" happened, then the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence outside of your own word.

 :asian:


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## bluenosekenpo (May 15, 2004)

oops


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## dearnis.com (May 15, 2004)

Wow!  What a cool thread!  And I only just found it.
Some more food for thought...
I train with a gentleman who works in a game park and, in part, trains the bears.  He has some very impressive scars from "playing;" no thanks.  (note that these are from a black bear, no where near full grown).
There is one case documented on record of a man killing a lion with a knife (many years ago, I don't recall the  full name, it is documented in Peter Capstick's "Death in the Silent Places."
Oyama did indeed kill many bulls with punches.  At the  slaughter house where they were contained/restrained.  An impressive feat of skill/focus to be sure, but not the same as fighting any species of wild cattle, or even a prime Mexican or Spanish fighting bull.
Strength pound for pound: leopards routinely stash their food up in trees to keep it from the other beasts.  That is to say the 120 pound cat climbs trees with 3-400# antelope in in its jaws.  There are cases of men killing leopards without firearms, but many more cases of the leopards killing men....  Why pick on leopards?  Similar size to cougars; fortunately for us north americans the cougar doesnt show the same level of aggression...
And 1/2 pound to crush the windpipe?  Source please?
 :idunno:


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## 7starmantis (May 15, 2004)

I can't remember where I got this story, but I was wondering if we put Cobra against this animal who would win?

_Dosha is a 10-month old mixed breed puppy who wandered away from its owners home in Clearwater, California on April 15th. Saddly, Dosha was hit by a passing car. To put the poor puppy out of of her suffering a police officer at the scene shot dosha in the head with his pistol. The puppy was then transported to an animal control center where she was placed in a plastic bag in the cadaver freezer. Reuturs and The Associated Press report that two hours later, a veterinarian opened the door to the freezer to find Dosha standing up inside the plastic bag, which is the equivalent of a human body bag. Talk about a surprise!!_ 

:idunno: 
7sm


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## someguy (May 15, 2004)

Of course we have all of the super animal stories yet no one has any stories about an animal easily killed.


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## gozanryu (May 19, 2004)

Let me break down my opinion for you in terms of how long you would last with all the aforementioned critters.

Chimp (male 140 lbs) about 9 seconds
Leopard you gotta be kidding 2 seconds
Cougar (about 80 lbs) maybe 18-20 seconds
My Dog about 30 seconds

These times are based on the start of aggressive behavior untile your offence has turned into complete defense or you are mamimed, incapacitated waiting (praying) for death. Leopard indeed! Have you not seen a leopard?
I bet my 16 pound housecat could take you down in less than 30 seconds. :ultracool


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## someguy (May 19, 2004)

Man my hose cat has taken me down.  He ran straight into the back of my leg when I was walking.  Accedental but I was taken down by a house cat.


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## Kane (Sep 8, 2004)

LOL, just found this thread. Interesting stuff.

Cobra's story does not sound too unrealistic at all. Well, except for the 10 inch knife part. First of all there are no 10 inch knives. There are however 10 inch daggers which most people don't carry. 

Many people have killed cougars in self defense (with a knife of course). I'm not sure whether a normal man can really beat any bigger cat (cougar, leopard, or jaguar) unless he is and Grandmaster Martial Artist and is at a good size. Expecially cats, which have the sharpest of claws and are master hunters. I would say a man with a lot of courage vs a male gray wolf would be a somewhat equal chalenge. There have actually been documented cases however in South America of men who have actually strangled jaguars in self defense. I saw it on a documentary some time ago.

Here is actual documented case of a man killing a cougar with a 3 inch pocket knife. He too suffered a lot of injuries himself. The site is below;

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/81142_coug02ww.shtml


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## bignick (Sep 8, 2004)

silliness...

humans are weak...anyone that has studied martial arts knows how weakly the body is constructed...(too many pressure points, joints to break, ways to choke, teeth are worthless, slow as heck...etc...)

humans only advantage in the wild is invention and creativity


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## Bod (Sep 8, 2004)

St. George slew a dragon. Thought I'd add that. Don't know if he was armed or not.


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## OULobo (Sep 8, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> silliness...
> 
> humans are weak...anyone that has studied martial arts knows how weakly the body is constructed...(too many pressure points, joints to break, ways to choke, teeth are worthless, slow as heck...etc...)
> 
> humans only advantage in the wild is invention and creativity



I beg to differ. The human body is a very efficient and effective machine. Pressure points can be resisted, joints are built very stable especially with proper muscle support, our necks are small and not very exposed, the human bite is one of the most damaging in the animal kingdom (mostly due to infection) and slow is a relative term. Most of the "weaknesses" you mention are things that another human might have knowledge of and the ability to exploit, but the average animal won't and can't. Although we are not the most intimidating or powerful creature on the planet, we have a modicum of defensive ability above our intellect. The problem is that modern man often lets his physical abilities waste and fade until we are even less effective physically than we were in previous generations.


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## lonecoyote (Sep 8, 2004)

Let's have more animal choices! How about feral hogs? I've never been so scared of any animal in my life as I was of a feral hog. Over 150lbs,at least, looked to me more like 300 but it could have been fear, and they are aggressive and will kill you. Not because they are hunting you, but because they are mad and they just want to kill you. How about ostriches and emus? Read Johnny Cash's autobiography, he had one ostrich on his country place, had to fight it when it came at him, He was armed with a stick, and that bird opened him up all the way down his stomach, almost killed him. More choices and anecdotes please.


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## bignick (Sep 8, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> The problem is that modern man often lets his physical abilities waste and fade until we are even less effective physically than we were in previous generations.



That's pretty much my point...the human body can be trained up to incredible levels of speed/strength/etc...but relatively few people are in that kind of conditioning

and as for bites being damaging due to infection...that's not gonna help stop an animal attacking you...

also, animals instinctively exploit weakness, they'll go for the throat...they train for it all the time


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## Blindside (Sep 8, 2004)

Lonecoyote,

There is no reason that a feral hog can't weight 300, in fact the larger specimens range in the 400+ lbs. zone and some individuals that are much larger.   

As a general comment, people are nuts if you want to face them with just a knife, fortunately for the human race there are some who want to do just that, google "knife hunting boar" and see some results.

Freakin' morons.

Lamont


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## bignick (Sep 8, 2004)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Lonecoyote,
> As a general comment, people are nuts if you want to face them with just a knife, fortunately for the human race there are some who want to do just that, google "knife hunting boar" and see some results.
> 
> Freakin' morons.


That's where natural selection comes into play.


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## Kane (Sep 8, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> silliness...
> 
> humans are weak...anyone that has studied martial arts knows how weakly the body is constructed...(too many pressure points, joints to break, ways to choke, teeth are worthless, slow as heck...etc...)
> 
> humans only advantage in the wild is invention and creativity


 
Joints to Break? Pressure Points? Ways to choke? 

First of all, all mammals have the same basic joints and pressure points. 

Second, what makes you think an animal will go after pressure points or joints? I never knew animals had a smart enough brain to go after these parts. Animals can choke too? The only choking I've seen any animal do is a neck bite.

Our bodies havent been necessarily "weakly" constructed. It all depends on the man's lifestyle. There are skinny humans, fat humans, muscular humans, super buff humans, ect. Now would a standard couch potato have a chance against a animal like a puma who is always on the prowl? No! How about a man that lives more outdoor wild lifestyle? Or how about Martial Artists who knows how to fight? Don't forget about those people that left weight religiously. It depends on the individual.

By the way, did you guys know the greatest human bite force ever achieved was at 950 pounds of force? That is almost as high as a lion's or tiger's bite. That is nearly 5 times more than the average human (average human 200 pounds of force). It is also more than 3 times that of a cougar and almost twice the bite force of a leopard. No animals can ever reach the extremeness of human records. So what's my point?

The man obviously used a special technique to increase his bite force. How did he do it? He used his brain and thought of the way. That is our greatest weapon, our minds. If a man can increase his strength by 5 without doing any exercise (not sure whether you can exercise your jaw muscles) do you think finding a way to beat a puma or leopard bare-handed is that far away if someone really thought about it? I don't think it is impossible for a man to defend himself against wild predators. However, right now it's less than likely. Remember though, nothing is impossible.


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 8, 2004)

Semi-related note - anyone read The Book of Merlyn by T.H. White?  In part of it, one of the animals is telling Wart/King Arthur the story of how the species were created.  They were all gathered in their embryonic states, all potential.  Each one asked for something really special - big claws, armored back, etc.  When Man was given a chance, he asked to remain an embryo - he uses his mind to survive.

Compared to other species, our brains, our social systems, and our language are what we compete with.  

I'm kind of amused by the idea of "could I take a ________ " - there is always a way, especially if the person gets to be armed.  But animals aren't stupid, and they don't *want* to attack - most of their energy is focused on just staying alive.  Unless you're a meal, of course.
And about that cougar attack - most cougar hunts on film I've seen, the cougar grabs or trips with their paws first, buffeting and clawing before the bite goes in.  Anyone who messes with a cougar must get pretty torn up, and would definetly need to see a doctor!


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## bignick (Sep 8, 2004)

my point wasn't that a bear was going to grab you and throw you to the ground and slap on an armbar or a rear choke...the point was that it's a bit of an awkward design...we train to compensate for this...



			
				Kane said:
			
		

> No animals can ever reach the extremeness of human records.


Again, with biting, our teeth are pretty ineffective at biting and tearing when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom

also, we are talking about the extreme high range of human's here...and comparing it to the *average* of the animals...you can't excersize jaw muscles and biting strenth is more of a matter of leverage than muscles...i bet you could find a lot of animals that have extremely strong bites compared to the average for their species

how fast can humans run, how far can they jump or even fly?...let's not even start with animals that have specialized defenses like poison...

the point is that any normal human, caugt unprepared and alone by an animal has very slim chances of survival if that animal decides he's food...it's a different situation if the animal is just trying to scare us away from their territory...

humans are social creatures and we work best in groups with a strategy...like people have been saying...the mind is our greatest strength...


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 8, 2004)

> _Dosha is a 10-month old mixed breed puppy who wandered away from its owners home in Clearwater, California on April 15th. Saddly, Dosha was hit by a passing car. To put the poor puppy out of of her suffering a police officer at the scene shot dosha in the head with his pistol. The puppy was then transported to an animal control center where she was placed in a plastic bag in the cadaver freezer. Reuturs and The Associated Press report that two hours later, a veterinarian opened the door to the freezer to find Dosha standing up inside the plastic bag, which is the equivalent of a human body bag. Talk about a surprise!!_


 Young of most species - for instance, young mammals - often have ways of surviving events that would kill an adult of the same species. I know that when an animal has to be euthanized, for example by CO2 asphyxiation, a young mammal must be kept in the CO2 longer than an adult. If you remove a young animal from CO2 too early (ex.: less than 30 minutes), they can start breathing again. Young mammals can withstand hypoxic (low O2) conditions, cold conditions, etc., better than adults can.

OK, that's it for me geeking it up for now.


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## Shurikan (Sep 8, 2004)

There are other ways to win besides fighting, with cats you just need to stand tall and be loud they will most likely run, I would not want to be in a cage with one and just fight. Although i do not believe a man would not have a chance I do believe it would not be a good chance the one they do have. 

And as for breaking the legs of an animal just because it is smaller boned then a human it is much more agile good luck trying to get a kick to its leg and breaking it. 

I am from Montana lots of wildlife you are taught ways to defend yourself from animials, but none of those ways include fighting them.


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## DeLamar.J (Sep 8, 2004)

Cobra said:
			
		

> It is true actually deponding on the animal. Primates (including humans) are several times stronger than animals around the same weight. And if you notice, for eample dogs arms are more brittle and can't flex as much (like do the splits).
> 
> Also, did you guys know that a boxer punch is more powerful than an average tiger or lion bite? Tiger or lions can have 1,000 pounds bite pressure but a boxer's punch can be 1,500-2,500 pounds of pressure. I'm not saying and unarmed human can beat a lion or tiger because they are way too big and strong, but against a smaller weaker animal like a wolf or a cougar I think it is possible if we can avoid the sharp teeth and get around and some how get the throat (which will instantly kill any beast) or keep punching it in the back of the head (which would knock any beast out).


When your talking about a bite vs a punch, think pounds per square inch. I bet it wouldnt take but 20 pounds of pressure to drive a knife through your body. And the best way to beat a animal is by using psycology.


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## Ippon Ken (Sep 8, 2004)

Cobra said:
			
		

> Not lions, tigers, and bears (oh my). I know they are way too strong. I'm talking about wolves or cougars or dogs. They may have claws and teeth, but the stragety is to avoid the teeth and the claws and get around the beast.
> 
> I know chimpanzes are several time stronger than a human, but again i said APES are stronger than other organisms their size. I didn't mean we are the strongest ape (which we are the weakest). And when it comes to a chimpanzee fight. Martial Arts would be effective considering there bodies are 90% similar to ours no matter how strong he is (Having a lot of strenght does gaurantee you a win). And also remeber that is arm strenght. Are legs are equally as strong as a chimp's arms. We can't lift heavy loads with them like chimps with there arms because we can't grasp with our feet and you need grasping power to lift things and it's our legs so it is harder to lift thing lying down.


Okay, super savant. A cougar, pound for pound, is the strongest of the big cats. At about 120 pounds they can break an Elk's neck with one swipe of the claw. An elk is as big as a cow. Can you do that superdude? On top of that their backbones are like steel springs. Their flexibility is unbelievable. They can jump over 20 feet forward from a standstill. Get real, man, and pick up some books or something. That's why they kill men and women in So-Cal. If they all wanted to attack, especially a big adult, people without guns would be dead meat. Literally.

A Great Dane if it decided to go all out would eat you alive. Dogs are super resilient and strong. At least 5 times as strong as a 200 pound man for their size. Alaskan Malamutes can easily pull one ton of dead weight without rollers or wheels. Great Danes are even bigger. So can you do that? Dogs have had all their aggressive wolf instincts bred out of them (most dogs). On top of that they still instictively follow the hierarchy of a pack. You are the alpha male because you're the primary hunter, disciplinarian and provider. He will always "play" fight with you and probably never attack you because you're his master. It's called "submissive behavior". Be glad that he likes you!

Against most good sized predatory mammals any man, even the strongest and toughest ones would never ever stand a chance. Yes there have been instances where a man or woman has gotten the back of a smaller dog, like a pitbull, and choked them out. That was luck and life-or-death versus a small tame wolf. A real wolf or really big dog would kill or severely maim you.

You must be trolling or you're under 16 years old.


----------



## Blindside (Sep 8, 2004)

> Okay, super savant. A cougar, pound for pound, is the strongest of the big cats. At about 120 pounds they can break an Elk's neck with one swipe of the claw. An elk is as big as a cow.



Actually, it is the bite that does most of the killing.  On larger prey (elk, moose calves) the throat is bitten and the prey item is suffocated, on smaller prey (deer) the spine is broken from the bite.  

Lamont


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## Kane (Sep 8, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> my point wasn't that a bear was going to grab you and throw you to the ground and slap on an armbar or a rear choke...the point was that it's a bit of an awkward design...we train to compensate for this...
> 
> 
> Again, with biting, our teeth are pretty ineffective at biting and tearing when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom
> ...


You shouldn't say in general we would loose to animals. Which animals are you talking about? A cougar, leopard, or jaguar would be too much for a normal man. An animal like a wolf or cheetah would not and a courageous man does have a good chance against these animals.



Also, being social doesn't necessarily mean you are weak. Lions are social creatures. Are they weak just because they hunt as a pack? Being social is doesn't have much to do with it.


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## Kane (Sep 8, 2004)

Ippon Ken,

Pound for pound, jaguars are the strongest of the cats. Leopards are even stronger than cougars. There have been documented cases in South America of tribes-people who have actually best a jaguar by strangulation.

Great Danes would not be able to take down a man because these dogs are gentle giants. Alaskan Malamutes can pull large weight as a PACK. A Pit Bull is too small to kill a man (as little as 40 pounds) despite their abilities. A mastiff however can kill a man. No dogs are NOT 5 times as strong as a man. Infact dogs are a little weaker. However, as far as resilience, you are right dogs are much more resilient. Dogs can handle much more pain in many ways humans can't.

Anyway, my point is that is seems you are giving too much credit to other animals and not enough for humans. Nothing is impossible bro. If you practice of Martial Arts you should know this.


Cobra, 

I know where you are getting at. I agree too that humans ARE NOT helpless and weak against animals. However, it seems you were getting too into this and debate and now everyone thinks you are not legit. Calm down, have a beer or something.

Why don't you tell me your name and I'll look through the internet for your story of killing a cougar. I'm sure it's somewhere. The internet has everything! 

If you were joking about it's best you tell everyone the truth.


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## bignick (Sep 8, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> Which animals are you talking about?



Pretty much all of them...at least most large mammalian species...these animals have three motives in life...eat, sleep, propagate...that's all they do...not such a bad life, if you like the outdoors.  How do they eat, they kill their food, the predators at least.  They "train" in real life-and-death situations 24/7.  Not only that, but the endurance animals have, they don't sit on the couch and watch tv a couple hours a day....

Let's face it...your chances against any good sized predator that decides your lunch are slim to none...




			
				Kane said:
			
		

> Also, being social doesn't necessarily mean you are weak. Lions are social creatures. Are they weak just because they hunt as a pack? Being social is doesn't have much to do with it.


wolves, ants, bees, dogs, and numerous other creatures are social...and yes..a single lion or wolf on their own in the wilderness has very little chance of survival...

everybody like's the analogy of being the "lone wolf", it's cool, mysterious...but in the wild...there is a reason the wolf is by itself there's something wrong with it...and it usually dies


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## Kane (Sep 8, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> [/color]
> Pretty much all of them...at least most large mammalian species...these animals have three motives in life...eat, sleep, propagate...that's all they do...not such a bad life, if you like the outdoors. How do they eat, they kill their food, the predators at least. They "train" in real life-and-death situations 24/7. Not only that, but the endurance animals have, they don't sit on the couch and watch tv a couple hours a day....
> 
> Let's face it...your chances against any good sized predator that decides your lunch are slim to none...
> ...


 
Again, it depends on your lifesyle. I'm not saying a man who sits in a office building all day or a couch potato has a big chance. I'm talking about a physical fit man. Like a navy seal or outdoors man. 

Also, male lions actually do get along pretty good alone in the while. Of course their life is harder than being in a pride, but it doesn't mean they are helpless on their own. Cheers!


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## Ippon Ken (Sep 9, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> Ippon Ken,
> 
> Pound for pound, jaguars are the strongest of the cats. Leopards are even stronger than cougars. There have been documented cases in South America of tribes-people who have actually best a jaguar by strangulation.
> 
> ...


Pumas are stronger pound for pound than jaguars and leopards. They are strong enough to snap an Elk's neck, whether they do this as their primary killing tactic or not. Most animals are stronger pound for pound than humans. Especially most of the weaklings now living and thriving in America.

Yes Malamutes are pack/draft animals, but one 150 pound Malamute can pull over 1 ton.

A rabid Great Dane would kill your a$$!

Anyway what up with all the "What Ifs"? This ain't Marvel Comics.

I do real MAs. I can fight. I don't want to face a mad predator over 35 pounds because sharp teeth are good fighting implements. Go tangle with a Honey Badger or Wolverine tough guy.

Are you under 16? 

Uh-huh...


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## Bod (Sep 9, 2004)

> _Kane_ Animals can choke too? The only choking I've seen any animal do is a neck bite.


 I saw on TV that one lioness in a pride speciallised in grabbing wildebeast by their muzzle (i.e. across mouth and nostrils), which had the effect of suffocating them. Not standard technique as far as lions go, but it worked and was safer than getting caught up in the hooves or fallen on.

I think the most important thing about the way animals fight is that they try to avoid all type of injury, because those small injuries could kill the animal. Think about it, if your only way of getting food was by fighting you'd fight very cautiously.That is why their kill rates are generally very low (I think lions have about 20%, I should look it up).

The exceptions are humans, who do not fight to eat and have medicine, and African wild dogs, a species which actually is closer to a little hyena. African wild dogs have a 95% kill rate on hunting expeditions. Why? They tend to their sick, making sure that even the injured get food, so even a broken or amputated leg is survivable for one of these creatures.


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## OULobo (Sep 9, 2004)

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> Pumas are stronger pound for pound than jaguars and leopards. They are strong enough to snap an Elk's neck, whether they do this as their primary killing tactic or not. Most animals are stronger pound for pound than humans. Especially most of the weaklings now living and thriving in America.
> 
> Yes Malamutes are pack/draft animals, but one 150 pound Malamute can pull over 1 ton.
> 
> ...



Technically, almost anyone can snap an elk's neck. The amount of pressure to break most bones is minimal if applied in the right place and at the right angle. As such the ability to "break an elk's neck" is not a very valid measure of strength. Leopards are indeed stronger, by size ratio, evidenced by thier propensity to physically drag all their prey into trees for safety and retention. As for animals being "stronger pound for pound"; what is your measure of strength. In comparison, healthy human legs are stronger in size to strength ratio than most animals. 

"A rabid Great Dane". Now that is a classic. How bout a skunk on PCP? or a super mutated ferret on absinth? Now who is reading too many comics. Most animals infected with rabies don't exhibit aggressive behavior.

If you can't handle a 35 lb anything , you need to train a little more. I can't think of anything at 35 lbs more scary or damaging than a POed ferral cat, and I have caught and handled one (albeit not with ease)with minimal protection.


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## lonecoyote (Sep 9, 2004)

Watch out for those skunks on PCP! Raccoons on steroids! LOL Meanest animal pound for pound is the chihuahua. My uncle had some. Intense, fearless, mean, so mad they would shake with bad intentions before they bit. If they were as big as a Shetland Pony no man or beast that walks the earth would be safe. Actually, with most animals, stay calm, stand your ground (fleeing sets them off) and fill your hand with something. That opposable thumb makes me a tool using animal and that means a , stick, branch, or blade, if not gun.


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 9, 2004)

> How bout a skunk on PCP? or a super mutated ferret on absinth?


lol - I was *wondering* when I'd see the absinthe references on this forum!  

It seems a lot of this argument is not about utility, but about whether people are stronger or weaker than other animals.  I think the thing most people would have to worry about first (same as getting in a fight with another person) is keeping their wits about them when faced with that strung-out possum on crystal meth with a little switchblade.  

And, as others have said, most situations with animals (unlike with people) will blow over if you remain calm, and do not provoke.


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## bignick (Sep 9, 2004)

no...what you really have to worry about is the golden marmoset on peyote....it's the most frightening thing you've ever seen


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 9, 2004)

I think marmosets are adorable.  And my dog loves digging for them.  Awwwww, lookit the widdle marmoset!  


Wait, wait... what's that he's got?  Why is he staggering around...?   AAAAAAAAUUUUUGHHHH!


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## bignick (Sep 9, 2004)

i also thought i'd throw this on the debate on a human vs. an ape...still think we have such a good chance....www.judoinfo.com/images/video/media/karatechimp.mpeg

copy and paste the link to get it to work


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## kelly keltner (Sep 9, 2004)

I tell ya what. Cobra go into the woods and pick a fight with any animal you choose. Anything bigger then a house cat will do. Then, let me know how it turns out.

kelly


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## Kane (Sep 9, 2004)

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> Pumas are stronger pound for pound than jaguars and leopards. They are strong enough to snap an Elk's neck, whether they do this as their primary killing tactic or not. Most animals are stronger pound for pound than humans. Especially most of the weaklings now living and thriving in America.
> 
> Yes Malamutes are pack/draft animals, but one 150 pound Malamute can pull over 1 ton.
> 
> ...


Umm, do you know anything about animals? Jaguars are the most robust and muscular cats of ALL cats. Ask any zoologist who specializes in the study of felines. They refer to jaguars as the pit bull of the cat family. Leopards can haul a carcass almost twice their size up a tree. I don't think a cougar can do that. Like I said there have been tribes-people who have even bested jaguars in South America. Now are these common? No, these circumstances are rare. However it proves nothing is impossible.

Malamutes can pull 1 ton by themselves Do you mean steroid-taking monster Malamutes over 500 pounds (LOL)? A tiger can haul a maximum of one ton (2,000 pounds). Are you saying a 150 pound Malamute is stronger than a tiger? What planet are you on?

Rabid Great Dane? LOL, Great Danes aren't rabid. They are gentle giants that believe it or not many men can take down. An 80 pound German Shepard has a better chance than even a 140 pound Great Dane. Great Danes only have their size to intimidate other people and dogs. Most of the time they cower from a true fight with anything, they are no bred to fight. Especially the Great Danes of today. 

Are you really saying you can't beat an animal at 35 pounds? LOL, how small are you? Just too clarify, most adult male humans can take most animals over 100 pounds down. If you can't take down a 35 pounds there must be something you must either anerexic at 60 pounds. Wolverines and Honey Badgers do courageous bluff; it isn't going to save them if they were to actually fight with a MUCH larger animal like a 140 pound cougar, 300 pound black bear, or even a 170 pound man. Use your head. That is like saying a 130 leopard can take a 500 pound male lion. Oh and no, humans aren't an exeption just because you think they are. It is simple logic. An animal 5 times smaller or even 3 times smaller cannot kill a much bigger. Look at lions and African Cape Buffaloes. As you will see lions can't really take down these prey animals that are healthy unless they get impaled while doing it.

Read up a little before you post.

Why would I want to tangle with anything? Why would you ask me too? If you study martial arts you should no fighting should be reserved ONLY for self defense. Do you really do MAs?

Am I under 16? I am 19, what does that got to do with anything.


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## OULobo (Sep 10, 2004)

Here is one I don't even want to think about. 

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/D/DOG_ATTACK?SITE=VTBUR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


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## Kane (Sep 10, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> Here is one I don't even want to think about.
> 
> http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/D/DOG_ATTACK?SITE=VTBUR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


That is the worst palce to be biten! Poor Guy! Why the hell was he naked in a park?


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 10, 2004)

Uuummmm.... I can think of a good reason why a dog might bite off a guy's genitals, if said guy was getting naked with the dog... just a thought... usually people get so upset about animal attacks, but there might have been provokation on the guy's part(s)....


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## Flatlander (Sep 10, 2004)

:rofl:  This is getting a little out of hand!


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## bignick (Sep 10, 2004)

i think this got out of hand the moment someone claims to have killed a cougar barehanded


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 10, 2004)

> This is getting a little out of hand!


 Either that was a very innocent comment, or a terrible pun....


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## Kane (Sep 10, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> i think this got out of hand the moment someone claims to have killed a cougar barehanded


I thought Cobra said he beat the cougar with a 10 inch knife?


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## bignick (Sep 10, 2004)

oops...yes...a ten inch knife...that was just on a local radio station...and no paper clippings...or no secondary proof...also, judging by cobra's reputation...which is the lowest on the board...i'm not predisposed to believing that story...


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## Mark Weiser (Sep 10, 2004)

Actually most wild animals are terrified of human contact. Therefore will run and hide to get out of there. The only time a wild animal would ever attack is if the animal feels cornered or your perceivced as a direct threat to thier young. The chances of running into a rabid animal in the wild is very rare due to the fast death rate of these animals. Dehydration will kill them before they have human contact. 

Most animals have better sense than us most of the time due to the fact most of them will avoid a rabid dead animal. Vultures come to mind.


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## bignick (Sep 10, 2004)

this is very true...which makes a so-called report of killing the cougar less believable...also, if you are percieved as a direct threat to an animal, you will only have problems with that animal as long as you are percieved as a threat...such as still being in their territory or acting in a manner that is percieved as threatening by the animal...

if an animal is threatened it will makes it's presence known(rattle snakes rattle...bears rear up on hind legs...all sorts of screeching and such) and allow you a chance to dissolve the situation

however, my point is that if an animal sees you as food...and it's hungry...you are going to have a heck of time escaping without serious injuries or risk of death...there will be no warning...just a dinner bell ringing....


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## white belt (Sep 10, 2004)

Heard a story on Paul Harvey some months back.  Appears some hikers or a Forest Ranger came across the mutilated carcass of a Wolverine.  There was a trail of blood leading from the carcass to a clearing a short distance away.  There laid the mutilated carcass of a full grown Grizzly bear.  It was deduced that they fought, Yogi won, and Yogi then took a short stroll to die from the damage inflicted by the little Wolverine.

I just had a great idea for a new "reality" show.  We rent the Octagon from the UFC and put up plexiglass (kind of like the spit shield at the salad bar).  We procure a Wolverine, starve it for say...4-5 days and put it in the Octagon.  Next down the smoke filled ramp comes....COOOOOBBBBRRRAAAAAAAA! with a raw pork chop for an athletic supporter (cup).  For the next weeks episode the challenger would wear whats left of Cobra as a cup and the fun could start all over again.  I would chip in some of my beer money to finance things.  What do you say Cobra, we would even offer a nice 401k!

Apologies,
white belt


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## Mark Weiser (Sep 11, 2004)

Sign up for paypal you just may have hit on a new show lol!!


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## Kane (Sep 11, 2004)

white belt said:
			
		

> Heard a story on Paul Harvey some months back. Appears some hikers or a Forest Ranger came across the mutilated carcass of a Wolverine. There was a trail of blood leading from the carcass to a clearing a short distance away. There laid the mutilated carcass of a full grown Grizzly bear. It was deduced that they fought, Yogi won, and Yogi then took a short stroll to die from the damage inflicted by the little Wolverine.
> 
> I just had a great idea for a new "reality" show. We rent the Octagon from the UFC and put up plexiglass (kind of like the spit shield at the salad bar). We procure a Wolverine, starve it for say...4-5 days and put it in the Octagon. Next down the smoke filled ramp comes....COOOOOBBBBRRRAAAAAAAA! with a raw pork chop for an athletic supporter (cup). For the next weeks episode the challenger would wear whats left of Cobra as a cup and the fun could start all over again. I would chip in some of my beer money to finance things. What do you say Cobra, we would even offer a nice 401k!
> 
> ...


 
Actually, Cobra or anyone else might be able to kill wolverines. Many people overate the wolverine but they are no really as dangerous as most people think. They weigh as little as 35 pounds and it is unrealistic for much larger 170 pound animals whether it is a human or not to loose to a wolverine. Human or not, wolverines are not big enough.

However wolverines, are pound for pound one of the strongest animals under the class Carnivora. They can beat just about anything at least twice their size and they are VERY courageous. They have been known to even scare black bears up trees! 

This doesn't guarantee a win ever! Any man can be super courageous but does it mean he has a chance against a lion over 3-5 times his size? No way could he (unless he had a weapon). Wolverines would not be able to stand up to a much bigger 130 pound gray wolf or a 140 pound puma, a bigger 300 pound black bear, or even a 170 pound man. Sure, wolverines can inflict nasty injuries on any of these animals, but not kill them. They are simply too small.

However, if there was a 100 pound wolverine, watch out! They would be kings of the weight class!

White Belt, where did you get that story? There is no way a 35 pound wolverine can best a 600 pound grizzly, or even a 130 pound wolf. It is simple common sense. Wolverines are tough but they aren't super animals.


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## white belt (Sep 11, 2004)

Paul Harvey is a nationally syndicated news show played over the radio 6 days a week.  Been around for 40 years or more.

You know the names Cobra AND Kane have GREAT Wolverine Octagon marketing potential. (nudge, nudge).  Week two?

white belt

P.S.
It was also noted that the Bear and Wolverine were fighting over an animal carcass for food.


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## Kane (Sep 11, 2004)

white belt said:
			
		

> Paul Harvey is a nationally syndicated news show played over the radio 6 days a week. Been around for 40 years or more.
> 
> You know the names Cobra AND Kane have GREAT Wolverine Octagon marketing potential. (nudge, nudge). Week two?
> 
> ...


No white belt, but I'm serious! Wolverines are too small to be considered a threat. There is no exception. Even if it is a 35 pound cat or dog, it makes no difference! Wolverines might be able to inflict nasty scars on other even larger animals, but no kill them. I took a zoology class last year at the collage and studied in particle primates and carnivores. So I know what I am talking about.


I think you heard the radio wrong. First of all, wolverines rarely come in contact with grizzlies. I am pretty sure it was a 90 pound black bear (they can reach this small believe it or not). It is simple logic, 35 pounds can't take down 600 pounds whether you like it or not. The only animals that can do take down a animal nearly10 times his size are man and that is only if he has a very powerful weapon (sword, long spear, crossbow, or gun).

Yeah!, my 100th post! I'm a green belt! artyon:


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## Blindside (Sep 11, 2004)

I suspect this is the story that you are mentioning.  You will notice that the wolverine lost, decisively.

Lamont


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## white belt (Sep 11, 2004)

Thank you for the story.  I stand corrected on the fact it was a Black Bear and not a Grizzly.  Point is still well made, a 27 lb. Wolverine died in combat taking a full grown Black Bear with him.  Now what is a man going to do with that frickin' critter situation?  Reminds me of King Arthur in Monty Pythons "Holy Grail" when he and his men come across the "rabbit" guarding the cave.  "Run awaaay!, Run awwaaay!".

Got to admit this is a good thread.

Thanks,
white belt


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## bignick (Sep 11, 2004)

IT IS THE RABBIT!!!!!!!

He's got huge sharp...well, he can jump about yea...LOOK AT THE BONES MAN!!!!


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## Kane (Sep 11, 2004)

white belt said:
			
		

> Thank you for the story. I stand corrected on the fact it was a Black Bear and not a Grizzly. Point is still well made, a 27 lb. Wolverine died in combat taking a full grown Black Bear with him. Now what is a man going to do with that frickin' critter situation? Reminds me of King Arthur in Monty Pythons "Holy Grail" when he and his men come across the "rabbit" guarding the cave. "Run awaaay!, Run awwaaay!".
> 
> Got to admit this is a good thread.
> 
> ...


Do you relize a black bear can weigh as little as 90 pounds when full grown even before hibernation? I'm sure the wolverine faught a 90 pound or less black bear. They never specified how much the weight of this black bear was so I am assuming it was that low. The wolverine still didn't win either.

Not only that, black bears believe it or not evolved as a prey species meaning they are not much of fighters. I'm sure a wolverine can seriously injure anything 90 pounds. Wolverines have been known to take animals even in the order carnivora twice their size. They have even took down prey animals 3 times their size! However, it isn't going to help them against a 140 pound cougar, 130 pound wolf, 170 pound man, or bigger bear. Like I said, it is simple common sense. Oh and there is a big differance between a black bear and a grizzly bear. Cheers!


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 11, 2004)

There are Army training films teaching how to take out sentry dogs with a knife across their throat, or breaking their necks with your arms.


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## DeLamar.J (Sep 16, 2004)

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/268/


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## Kane (Sep 16, 2004)

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> http://www.compfused.com/directlink/268/


Saw the video, how could the guy fight back when he was stuck in a car with no way to defend himself?

Though even if he was out of the car, I still don't think the man could of hurt the leopard that much considering being scratched by a big cat is the most painful thing you can ever feel.


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## bignick (Sep 16, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> Saw the video, how could the guy fight back when he was stuck in a car with no way to defend himself?
> 
> Though even if he was out of the car, I still don't think the man could of hurt the leopard that much considering being scratched by a big cat is the most painful thing you can ever feel.


alright...we're getting into the land of hyperbole now..."the most painful thing you can feel"

have you ever felt it?

i'm gonna have to go with my jujutsu instructor who also has a masters and teaches anatomy and physiology...he's been doing martial arts for 40 years and when he was in the marines...one of the ways they would take out sentries is by stabbing them in the kidney...so painful they couldn't even scream...

that sounds a lot more painful than a scratch...


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## Kane (Sep 17, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> alright...we're getting into the land of hyperbole now..."the most painful thing you can feel"
> 
> have you ever felt it?
> 
> ...


My 11 pound domestic cat can scratch hard. I can only imagine how strong being scratched by a ca that weighs between 130-200 pounds. Ouch!

Stabbing someone in the kidney would kill the man quicker. Scratches will leave you in pain for a long while unless the leopard can kill you right away.


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## arnisador (Apr 30, 2005)

Police dog training video clip:
http://www.wimp.com/intense/

 Interesting!


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## lonecoyote (Apr 30, 2005)

I'm so glad this thread is back, especially in light of what happened in the news about a month ago. A man and a woman were visiting a chimpanzee they used to own, two other chimps got loose and attacked the man, almost killing him. They bit off his testicles! And a large part of his face, but that pales in comparison to the other. I'll take a jaguar, leopard, bear,  or whatever, at least it would be over quick, but I'm not messing with a chimpanzee.


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## MA-Caver (Apr 30, 2005)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> I'm so glad this thread is back, especially in light of what happened in the news about a month ago. A man and a woman were visiting a chimpanzee they used to own, two other chimps got loose and attacked the man, almost killing him. *They bit off his testicles!* And a large part of his face, but that pales in comparison to the other. I'll take a jaguar, leopard, bear,  or whatever, at least it would be over quick, but I'm not messing with a chimpanzee.


Talk about _Monkey Steals The Peach!!_ Yeowch!


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## Crom (Apr 30, 2005)

What an amazing thread! Slipped me by.


Ayway, i might as well try and add to it seein as its amused me for a good few minutes.

I'm pretty sure that i've read that chimp muscles (and presumably most other mammals) are 4 or 5 times stronger for their size than human muscles, just roll with me for a while 'til i can find the reference again.  The reason being that humans need so much oxygen to fuel their humongous labour intensive brains that they can't spare any for muscles so it makes sense that from a purely strength based perspective animals only a quarter of our weight can prey on humans all they want, not to mention the teeth and claws.

Not that we can't take bigger things on, just something for the pot.


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## Blindside (Apr 30, 2005)

Actually humans are pretty strong, even relative to other species, we aren't all that far from our brachiating ancestors (and cousins).  But if we aren't as strong as some other critters I'm pretty certain it isn't our brain that is the cause of the difference.    

Our problem is our lack of effective natural weapons or natural armor, and that many modern humans haven't been trained on how to use what they have.  A problem wild species don't have.  

Lamont


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## arnisador (May 1, 2005)

I remember the chimp story--it's scary how strong they are.


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## lonecoyote (May 1, 2005)

It seems like I've read somewhere that a chimp in a rage can pull a handle that measures force to 350 lbs with one hand. There are men who can do a 350 lb one handed deadlift, but they are very few and far between. It seems like the guy who got attacked also lost a couple of fingers but again, so what, in comparison to what else he lost. As far as being trained to use what we have, well, what works on a human might be counterproductive when trying to deal with an animal. Maybe putting a chimp in the guard results in a missing set of family jewels, not saying that's how it happened to the guy but I'd rather not find out.


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## lonecoyote (May 1, 2005)

Sorry, just did some research on the internet. Make that 1,260 lbs with one hand! Wow!


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## Eldritch Knight (May 1, 2005)

Wow. That's plausible, but its still a bit hard to believe. Source, please?


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## arnisador (May 1, 2005)

That's something. Maybe I'll start studying monkey style kung fu!


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## lonecoyote (May 1, 2005)

Eldritch Knight, I did a yahoo search for chimpanzee strength, clicked on the one that said Google Answer: chimpanzee strength. Arnisador, that reminds of a thread I read on another forum quite a while back, where a kung fu guy played with some monkeys, forget which kind and said he learned a lot of good kung fu. He was lucky they were playing or he would have learned what it was like to get his face eaten off.


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