# Koryo problems



## terryl965 (Feb 28, 2008)

I have always been tought with Koryo it is  a sidekick to the knee and then the ribcage, but at all tournament we do we get penalized because we do not shoot the second sidekick to the cieling. Most of the BB can kick to the cieling so it is not a matter of doing it, it becomes a matter of it not being right. When I talk to official they tell me I'm wrong but the KKW say the same thing knees and rib cage. Do I make the changes or just keep losing with this poomsae?


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## Errant108 (Feb 28, 2008)

If you're training for competition, then you have to do what it takes to win.  If you have other reasons, then you have to weigh your priorities.


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## terryl965 (Feb 28, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> If you're training for competition, then you have to do what it takes to win. If you have other reasons, then you have to weigh your priorities.


 
But even in competition you should follow the guidelines set forth by the governing body? So why do they not do that and who knows and probaly nobody cares about the Art when they are playing a game.


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## Errant108 (Feb 28, 2008)

File a grievance with your state association.  Given past experience, I doubt it will do you any good.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 28, 2008)

I checked the KKW textbook & it does say knee then rib/solar plexus. So that's the official way to do it.

However, for as long as I can remember, the "tournament version" has been a kick to the ceiling. As much as I hate to say it: teach the tournament version for tournaments only. Say, "ok, the correct way to do this technique is knee then solar plexus. For tournaments, throw the second to Andre the Giant's ear lobe."

Boon Hae sadly, is less important than how things look in tournaments.


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## terryl965 (Feb 28, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> File a grievance with your state association. Given past experience, I doubt it will do you any good.


 
I know errant, nothing can change what is being done.


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## terryl965 (Feb 28, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I checked the KKW textbook & it does say knee then rib/solar plexus. So that's the official way to do it.
> 
> However, for as long as I can remember, the "tournament version" has been a kick to the ceiling. As much as I hate to say it: teach the tournament version for tournaments only. Say, "ok, the correct way to do this technique is knee then solar plexus. For tournaments, throw the second to Andre the Giant's ear lobe."
> 
> Boon Hae sadly, is less important than how things look in tournaments.


 
I know I just hate teaching what is not what they want.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 28, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I know I just hate teaching what is not what they want.


 
Someday, the correct way will be allowed in the "traditional forms division" with all the karate guys who wear uniforms to mid calf. And "old guys" like you & me will be asked to judge those (cuz we are the only one's who know them). While XMA techniques dominate forms competitions.


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## Errant108 (Feb 28, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> Boon Hae sadly, is less important than how things look in tournaments.



The bunhae doesn't require the second kick, since the arm you've trapped would be in the way.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 28, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> The bunhae doesn't require the second kick, since the arm you've trapped would be in the way.


 
Just looking at the textbook again shows a different thing altogether. It shows the double knifehand block simply blocking a midsection punch (no trapping involved) then the second side kick to the throat of the opponent.

So much for clarity.


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## Errant108 (Feb 28, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> Just looking at the textbook again shows a different thing altogether. It shows the double knifehand block simply blocking a midsection punch (no trapping involved) then the second side kick to the throat of the opponent.
> 
> So much for clarity.



That's not bunhae.  That's the official KKW explanation, which has little to do with any actual analysis of the movements derived from Okinawan kata.

Bunhae does not mean "application".


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## Kacey (Feb 28, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I checked the KKW textbook & it does say knee then rib/solar plexus. So that's the official way to do it.
> 
> However, for as long as I can remember, the "tournament version" has been a kick to the ceiling. As much as I hate to say it: teach the tournament version for tournaments only. Say, "ok, the correct way to do this technique is knee then solar plexus. For tournaments, throw the second to Andre the Giant's ear lobe."
> 
> Boon Hae sadly, is less important than how things look in tournaments.



I agree... tournament competition is a game, and part of the game is watching the competitors, figuring out what the judges are looking for, and being able to adjust your own performance accordingly, usually at the competition itself.  In too many cases, "flash" outweighs application in the judging of patterns - and this appears to be one of those cases.


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## wade (Feb 28, 2008)

Do you train for local or national level competition? There is a difference. For local, kick high, for national follow the current WTF, not Kukkiwon, standards. I just did a poomsae seminar in New Orleans and they, the WTF, are death on those high kicks. At the local level though, 99 % of the people judging forms are not certified referees and this does make a difference. They tend to go for power and flash over correct technique. I have seen people do the forms complete wrong and still win because they looked really good doing it. Me, I train my players for the national level, win lose or draw. As far as I am concerned that is the way it is supposed to be and that is the way they will do it.


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## cali_tkdbruin (Feb 28, 2008)

For older guys, low then middle kick is just fine in Koryo poomse. At least those of us grey beards are still training and kicking! Anyway, who can throw that 2nd kick that high anymore anyway... :shrug:


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## YoungMan (Feb 29, 2008)

I have always taught it as low kick (checking technique), followed by high kick. I explain it as a checking kick in the style of a Taekkyon leg check, therefore not using penetrating power, followed by a head-level side kick.


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## bluekey88 (Feb 29, 2008)

We do low, mid for those kicks as well.  However...for the kids on our competition team, we tend to make them learn two versions of each poomse.  One for the school, and one for comps.  It sucks, but that's the way it needs to be right now.

Peace,
Erik


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## mango.man (Feb 29, 2008)

I too was always bummed when I would see my kid go out and do any poomse, the correct way but not win in competition. Then I found out something and had an epiphany about something else.

I found out that our old school grandmaster either was unaware of the changes made to various poomse over the years or refused to adopt those changes and therefore my kid really was doing them wrong.

But even so, the epiphany I has was to just tell her that while she is waiting for her turn, to watch the kids that go before her and watch what each judge scores for those kids and adjust her style accordingly. That resulted in many gold medals for forms. Only problem really occurred when she was first up. Then she was told to do it the way that generally scored the highest, i.e. kick the earthworms then the rafters and kihap so loud and long that you get everyone in the building to look at you KIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There were times that she let some go that were 25-30 seconds long. Again, not the way it is supposed to be, but it usually scored big with the judges.

Now, because of the subjectivity of forms in competition environments, I save the additional 10 bucks that it usually costs to sign up for a second event, and we stick with sparring only


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## Miles (Feb 29, 2008)

I agree with Wade.  Teach it and train it the right way and the rest of the pack will have to catch up to you when they learn they are doing it wrong.  Eventually the referees will start deducting for a high kick, just like they should deduct for middle punches in the second sequence of Taeguek 2.

Miles


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## IcemanSK (Feb 29, 2008)

Miles said:


> I agree with Wade. Teach it and train it the right way and the rest of the pack will have to catch up to you when they learn they are doing it wrong. Eventually the referees will start deducting for a high kick, *just like they should deduct for middle punches in the second sequence of Taeguek 2.*
> 
> Miles


 
Good anology, sir.


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## newGuy12 (Feb 29, 2008)

Winning in the competition is not NEARLY as good as learning the true forms.  Forget the competition when compared to learning the proper way, it is not even CLOSE to having the same value.  Everyone knows that. 

Those who know the forms well can judge the forms.  Other judges' opinions don't count for much, then.  Why try to appease a judge that will not hold the form to the proper standard?    

!!!  Please, for the sake of TKD itself, don't compromise for the sake of these events!


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## mango.man (Feb 29, 2008)

NewGuy12,

While I can certainly appreciate your point of view, if you are in a competiton, I presume your goal is to win, isn't it?  Otherwise, why compete.  If you are strictly in it to do forms in front of a group of people and do them in the "correct" manner, I would suggest perhaps just going out to a street corner somewhere and doing your forms for the whole world to see.  If you are doing them in a competition environment, you need to adjust and adapt and do them in a manner that will get you a win, otherwise you just blew however much money you paid to enter the competition.


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## newGuy12 (Mar 1, 2008)

Okay, at this point we all teeter on the point of falling into the "seething cauldron of debate".  I don't wish to stir all of that up.  Its just that I think that the preservation of the correct forms far exceed the competiton. 

I can't speak with any knowlege about this, mind you, because it has been decades since I have been to a tournament.  I'm of the camp that believes that all of this "fancying up" forms is a very bad practice, you see.  Before long, you end up with just some dance like motions.

Once again, I think that things should split up --> the schools that wish to practice the oldschool TaeKwonDo will be on one side of things, and the schools who deviate from that can be on the other side of things (more or less REGARDLESS of what governing bodies say) -- and then go on. 

I *still* wish to learn the application of the forms.  It just does not suit me to see forms perturbed to be more flashy.  That irks me to even watch it happen.  Of course, at the same time, I'm not running the world.  I am not some great dictator.  Others will have to follow their own bliss.  I will not try to force others to do as I wish them to, at least not very much, haha.


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## terryl965 (Mar 1, 2008)

Miles said:


> I agree with Wade. Teach it and train it the right way and the rest of the pack will have to catch up to you when they learn they are doing it wrong. Eventually the referees will start deducting for a high kick, just like they should deduct for middle punches in the second sequence of Taeguek 2.
> 
> Miles


 
This is so true Miles Thanks


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## Laurentkd (Mar 1, 2008)

I think teach it the way you want to teach it to your students, but then modify it for competition.  This allows you to keep the "true" traditional aspects for everyday, but will allow your competitors to at least start on a level playing field. 

I don't think this is sacrificing any of the "art".  We do the same in sparring at my dojang.  During class time the majority of our  (adult) students wear just the basic gear and just about everything goes. This trains us more closely for real life.  However, we would never go to a sparring division and start sweeping and then be mad later that we got penalized for it (even though it is not the same as real life) because we know the rules before hand and must comply.  It is not sacrificing anything to adjust to the environment, because traditional taekwondo and competition taekwondo are two completely separate arenas.  Maybe you can even turn it into a good lesson for your students that sometimes you have to adapt and overcome rather than going into a situation assuming that you already know what you need to do and what will be required.

I know this can be extra frustrating when WTF says a kick is supposed to be a certain 
way and the tournament scores you differently. But as others have said, I don't think that situation is going to change anytime soon, so if you want to compete and do well you have to show what the judges want.

On another note, when I competed in state (AAU and USTU) and national (AAU) tournaments 10 years ago I always shot my first set of side kicks as knee and ribcage, but then I would throw the super high kick on the stepping side kicks later on.  I felt this allowed me to show diversity in my kicks, as well and power and flexibility.  
Although much has certainly changed in the past 10 years.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 1, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Please guys my question is not about the SD principle behind Koryo, it is about what should I do about the competition Team that has to proform this Poomsae and should I make the changes to compete or stay with what is originally tought.


 
Terry you know how it is supposed to be done but we both know out on the circuit the correct way is probably not flashy enough.  Unfortunately in the end for your team to succeed you are going to have to go with more height on that kick.


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## foot2face (Mar 1, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Please guys my question is not about the SD principle behind Koryo, it is about what should I do about the competition Team that has to proform this Poomsae and should I make the changes to compete or stay with what is originally tought.


Terry, it seems that you are stressing over something that's not really a big deal.  I assume that part of the reason your school participates in from competitions is to win.  If that is the case then you have to play by the rules of the game and have your students throw the kick really high but there is no reason why, while training in your school and especially during grading, that they can't throw it exactly where you want it.  From reading many of your other post I get the impression that you are a very competent instructor.  I'm positive that you students have the skill to raise the kick severely inches higher in order to impress the judges during competitions and at other times lower it, honoring the preferences of their master. 
Now if you want to make a statement during competitions protesting unnecessary flash than more power to you. You'll have my support Sir.

Be well - F2F


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## terryl965 (Mar 1, 2008)

foot2face said:


> Terry, it seems that you are stressing over something that's not really a big deal. I assume that part of the reason your school participates in from competitions is to win. If that is the case then you have to play by the rules of the game and have your students throw the kick really high but there is no reason why, while training in your school and especially during grading, that they can't throw it exactly where you want it. From reading many of your other post I get the impression that you are a very competent instructor. I'm positive that you students have the skill to raise the kick severely inches higher in order to impress the judges during competitions and at other times lower it, honoring the preferences of their master.
> Now if you want to make a statement during competitions protesting unnecessary flash than more power to you. You'll have my support Sir.
> 
> Be well - F2F


 
I;m stressing because U was told last year the changes was being made to correct the problem withen Korto. I have three 14-17 years ald student thast are probaly going to maje the Junior Team this year and I want the best for them and not me. So for that to happen I must teach something that is not correct by the KKW standerds. I guess I will do like you and other have said play the game and teach the right way. Thank you all for your insights.


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## terryl965 (Mar 1, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Terry you know how it is supposed to be done but we both know out on the circuit the correct way is probably not flashy enough. Unfortunately in the end for your team to succeed you are going to have to go with more height on that kick.


 
You know Zach loves to throw the kick toward the cielling so I guess he will know.


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## Ninjamom (Mar 1, 2008)

I know that the reasons for participating in tournaments are as varied as the people who participate.  For me personally, it provides an opportunity for competition, for self-appraisal, and it's probably as close as this rapidly nearing-50-yr-old-lady is going to see to grace and dance in this lifetime.  For me, the primary benefit of forms competition is NOT in recording self-defense applications into muscle-memory.  At my age/size/height/weight, if I'm serious about SD, I should probably get a gun.

There is benefit to be had in competition, in hard work, in self-discipline, rigorous practice, general athleticism, and in being able to string many combinations together, whether or not they are represented in the original forms.  Your students should be rewarded for such endeavors and for their accomplishments in them.  People argue all day long about whether tournament-style sparring is representative of SD applications and effective TKD, too.  In both cases (forms, sparring), winning requires playing by the local rules.  

As others have suggested, 1). Study correctly; 2).Compete to win.


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## terryl965 (Mar 2, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> I know that the reasons for participating in tournaments are as varied as the people who participate. For me personally, it provides an opportunity for competition, for self-appraisal, and it's probably as close as this rapidly nearing-50-yr-old-lady is going to see to grace and dance in this lifetime. For me, the primary benefit of forms competition is NOT in recording self-defense applications into muscle-memory. At my age/size/height/weight, if I'm serious about SD, I should probably get a gun.
> 
> There is benefit to be had in competition, in hard work, in self-discipline, rigorous practice, general athleticism, and in being able to string many combinations together, whether or not they are represented in the original forms. Your students should be rewarded for such endeavors and for their accomplishments in them. People argue all day long about whether tournament-style sparring is representative of SD applications and effective TKD, too. In both cases (forms, sparring), winning requires playing by the local rules.
> 
> As others have suggested, 1). Study correctly; 2).Compete to win.


 
Thanks Ninjamom, Just for the record we win and win and win, I just do not want to send the wrong message to my student. That is all. Thanks again everybody, competition is just that competition.


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## Kacey (Mar 2, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> There is benefit to be had in competition, in hard work, in self-discipline, rigorous practice, general athleticism, and in being able to string many combinations together, whether or not they are represented in the original forms.  Your students should be rewarded for such endeavors and for their accomplishments in them.  People argue all day long about whether tournament-style sparring is representative of SD applications and effective TKD, too.  In both cases (forms, sparring), winning requires playing by the local rules.



I agree.  The purpose of competition is to get feedback, to compare oneself to others of similar rank, age, size, gender, etc., and to see how oneself compares.  When my students compete, I want to know what they _learned_ - winning is nice, and I am always appropriately appreciative when they do (which they do regularly, if not as regularly as Terry's students) - but the experience and the lessons are what I want my students to gain.  Competition within class, or even with other nearby classes, is often limited because of the number of students, and it is too easy to fall into habits of reaction (e.g. this person always does "X" when I do "Y") and to cease to push one's boundaries - competition forces students to move outside their comfort zone, which in turn causes them to learn, grow, and improve.

That the rules in competition are often different than the rules for class or testing teaches students how to change things on the fly, how to observe what is going on the environment and adapt their technique based on those observations - and that is, in essence, a very valuable skill for self-defense and life in general.


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## shesulsa (Mar 3, 2008)

_*ADMIN NOTE:*_

*The posts regarding application of TKD poomsae have been moved to this thread.

Please keep the discussion on topic.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator*


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## JWLuiza (Mar 3, 2008)

Kacey said:


> I agree.  The purpose of competition is to get feedback, to compare oneself to others of similar rank, age, size, gender, etc., and to see how oneself compares.  When my students compete, I want to know what they _learned_ - winning is nice, and I am always appropriately appreciative when they do (which they do regularly, if not as regularly as Terry's students) - but the experience and the lessons are what I want my students to gain.  Competition within class, or even with other nearby classes, is often limited because of the number of students, and it is too easy to fall into habits of reaction (e.g. this person always does "X" when I do "Y") and to cease to push one's boundaries - competition forces students to move outside their comfort zone, which in turn causes them to learn, grow, and improve.
> 
> That the rules in competition are often different than the rules for class or testing teaches students how to change things on the fly, how to observe what is going on the environment and adapt their technique based on those observations - and that is, in essence, a very valuable skill for self-defense and life in general.



Very good point.  Also, the pressure of observation is a crucible for tempering performance during real life altercations.  Cool under pressure.


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## Kwan Jang (Mar 3, 2008)

My view on forms is this: the purpose of a traditional pattern is a memory device to help a practitioner learn the direction, angle of attack, and type of attack towards vital targets, especially nerve centers. This is a great study device IF you take it and apply it in your training. If you don't, then it's akin to someone using the "alphabet song" to memorize the alphabet and then stopping there, rather than as a step in learning to read and write. If you are 5-6 yrs. old and sing "x-y-z, now I know my a-b-c's, what do you think of me". the reply would probably be "good job, Bobby". If the singer is 25, the reaction may be a little different.

Towards competition in sport, we're talking about athletic competition. I have no problem with open or creative forms as they show the athletic abilities of the performers. Even the much maligned XMA is showing a much higher level of athletic ability and creativity than any traditional pattern which is great for sport competition. Obviously, this has little value as a learning pattern to be passed down to future generations like many of the traditional patterns, but it's not their purpose. I kind of chuckle at the fact that most of the "traditionalists" who disdain either creative forms or XMA usually neither understand the purpose or application of their patterns and don't actually train them with any depth towards application at all. (a-b-c-d-e-f-g...).

In sport TKD competitions, it is very common to alter what would be effective in combat to make it more "viewer friendly". This is not only true of forms, but probably even more so in sparring competition. By that token, if one of my students wants to compete in olympic style or point sparring, I alter there training and mindset to prepare them for "playing the game". After the competition is over, we get back to work on their core material and "clean out" any bad habits they may have picked up. The same is true of forms.


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## exile (Mar 3, 2008)

Great post, as usual, KJ.



Kwan Jang said:


> My view on forms is this: the purpose of a traditional pattern is a memory device to help a practitioner learn the direction, angle of attack, and type of attack towards vital targets, especially nerve centers. This is a great study device IF you take it and apply it in your training. If you don't, then it's akin to someone using the "alphabet song" to memorize the alphabet and then stopping there, rather than as a step in learning to read and write. If you are 5-6 yrs. old and sing "x-y-z, now I know my a-b-c's, what do you think of me". the reply would probably be "good job, Bobby". If the singer is 25, the reaction may be a little different.



nice....

The crucial question, though, is how do the tournament organizers and the sponsoring orgs see the point of the forms competition? A lot of them will probably be happy to see the most exaggerated 'wushu'-style stuff performed&#8212;the more spectacular, the more repeat business they can count on.



Kwan Jang said:


> Towards competition in sport, we're talking about athletic competition. I have no problem with open or creative forms as they show the athletic abilities of the performers. Even the much maligned XMA is showing a much higher level of athletic ability and creativity than any traditional pattern which is great for sport competition. Obviously, this has little value as a learning pattern to be passed down to future generations like many of the traditional patterns, but it's not their purpose. _I kind of chuckle at the fact that most of the "traditionalists" who disdain either creative forms or XMA usually neither understand the purpose or application of their patterns and don't actually train them with any depth towards application at all. (a-b-c-d-e-f-g...)_.



And often will give you major arguments if you suggest that kata/hyung practice aimed at perfecting the _performance_ of the forms is the point of the whole exercise, rather than being a crucial step in the detailed _study_ of the form, with an eye to seeing the realistic combat strategies and tactics implicit in its subsequences. Yes. I get the feeling that in the KMAs, or at least TKD, we're at the place where Japanese karate was in the seventies and eighties, where, I've been told, not one American dojo instructor in a hundred could, or would, tell you anything about bunkai apart from, 'well, if he throws a middle lunge punch in a deep front stance like so, you do an inside-to-outside middle block like so, and then...'  Clearly, this is going to influence the overall attitude of the judging at these events. If it looks good, it'll probably get you points no matter how absurd it would be to try to use in a street confrontation...




Kwan Jang said:


> In sport TKD competitions, it is very common to alter what would be effective in combat to make it more "viewer friendly". This is not only true of forms, but probably even more so in sparring competition. By that token, if one of my students wants to compete in olympic style or point sparring, I alter there training and mindset to prepare them for "playing the game". After the competition is over, we get back to work on their core material and "clean out" any bad habits they may have picked up. The same is true of forms.



My view on Terry's problem is that it's connected with the culture of judging. You have to ask, how many judges actually know what the description standard of the form is? I'm not sure that the judges in many of these tournaments and competitions actually get the training, or instruction, or orientation,  that would enable them to turn down a flashy athletic performance in favor of a more sober, solid and technically correct execution of the hyung. 

I get the sense, from what I've seen at tournaments and heard from competitors, that this sort of problem isn't going to go away soon. I have a feeling that the sponsoring orgs want the competitions to emphasize the showmanship aspect, as a way of promoting themselves. What incentive do they have to change?


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## terryl965 (Mar 4, 2008)

What I have personnally seen with judges is this they no nothing about true application and foot placement. They won'r kicks to the cieling and people jumping though the roof to please them. If you was a acrobatic star you would not just barely get off the floor with your routine and if you are suppose to be doing Koryo the way of the Kukkiwon then why would you throw a second sidekick to the ceiling?


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## YoungMan (Mar 5, 2008)

That's not entirely true. At our organization tournament, the judges (myself included) could care less about a side kick in Koryo touching the ceiling. Kicking high simply because you can is meaningless.
What we are looking for is:
Are you doing the form the way it is intended to be done?
Are you practicing accuracy?
Are your techniques effective? If you do a technique and it looks like it would not do what it was designed for, you get marked down.
Are you quick, slow, graceful, and hard where and when you need to be?

All thiese points are more important than how high you can kick.


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## Last Fearner (Mar 5, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I have always been tought with Koryo it is a sidekick to the knee and then the ribcage, but at all tournament we do we get penalized because we do not shoot the second sidekick to the cieling.


Master Stoker, if you don't mind my contribution to this discussion, I would like to share some personal insights into what you are experiencing. 

First, you are correct in the proper target of the Taekwondo Poomsae, "Koryo." The double side kicks (in movements #2, and #6) are described as "Arae Yeop Chagi" and "Momtong Yeop Chagi" (Low Side Kick and Body Side Kick). The official intended targets are the knee and the solar plexus.



terryl965 said:


> When I talk to official they tell me I'm wrong but the KKW say the same thing knees and rib cage.


I'd be curious as to what "official" you talked to. The KKW teaches the forms correctly for Taekwondo training, and the WTF approves these same versions for competition with guidlines for judging them. I must admit that I am out of the loop as far as USAT rules since my last seminar was a USTU in 1998, but I used to teach the seminars for the USTU in our area, and I don't see the criteria for proper Taekwondo Poomsae changing.



IcemanSK said:


> Just looking at the textbook again shows a different thing altogether. It shows the double knifehand block simply blocking a midsection punch (no trapping involved) then the second side kick to the throat of the opponent.
> So much for clarity.


Iceman, you are right that it is often not clear. There are many interpretations that can be applied (IE: trapping), and the Knife-hand guarding block could be used against a punch, roundhouse kick, spinning hook kick, or even a weapon. The official form simply requires the block of a basic punch, knocking the opponent's punching hand away, then followed by two kicks, outward knife-hand strike to the neck, a punch, and an inward body block.

If trapping the opponent's punching wrist were applied, the side kick to the knee followed by the side kick to the solar plexus is still correct. Then pulling on the opponent's wrist while stepping down to strike the neck with the outward knife-hand, and letting go to execute the reverse punch is one possible application.



terryl965 said:


> Do I make the changes or just keep losing with this poomsae?


Both sides of this question have been addressed here by others, and I think you have mentioned that your students usually win anyway. As others have said, you can train for two target levels, and adjust to the tournament. As I will point out later, I doubt that this one factor of a high kick is really what decides victory in most cases, although it might seem that way.



wade said:


> Do you train for local or national level competition? There is a difference. For local, kick high, for national follow the current WTF, not Kukkiwon, standards.


Wade is right, and this is often the truth of the matter, unfortunately, as others have pointed out that students should be adaptable to change to the circumstances (a good quality by any means). In any event, it's not like we are talking about teaching them to do incorrect or poor techniques. This is an issue of following an approved pattern, and focusing on specific targets. By the rules, the specified targets should be struck, but certainly, if a student is capable of striking higher, it's not like you are teaching them poor Taekwondo skills, but I do understand your dilemma, especially promoting good training habits for self defense. 



Miles said:


> Eventually the referees will start deducting for a high kick, just like they should deduct for middle punches in the second sequence of Taeguek 2.
> 
> Miles


Miles has hit the nail on the head here, and it sheds a light on what *should* be done by referees and judges.



Kwan Jang said:


> Towards competition in sport, we're talking about athletic competition. I have no problem with open or creative forms as they show the athletic abilities of the performers. Even the much maligned XMA is showing a much higher level of athletic ability and creativity than any traditional pattern which is great for sport competition. Obviously, this has little value as a learning pattern to be passed down to future generations like many of the traditional patterns, but it's not their purpose.


Kwan Jang made some excellent points in his post, but the above quote is of particular interest here as to why this problem has developed over the years, and one must consider what is to be the future of Taekwondo Competition, and how this might affect the public's perception, new students' expectations, and instructors' decisions to compromise quality for popularity.

If I may wax nostalgic for a moment, some of you senior Taekwondoists can probably identify with this, and the newer students might benefit from hearing about it. When I first began competing in tournaments in the mid 1970's there were not many "Taekwondo" tournaments around (not near as many as today). My friends and I used to travel to find open "Karate" tournaments, "Karate/Kung-Fu" tournaments, or "Karate/Taekwondo" tournaments run by Karate schools. We were often amused at the "weird" stances, hand strikes, and noises made by our opponents in their Okinawan Kata. We would do textbook perfect Taekwondo forms, and never win because the judges graded according to Karate criteria. Of course, the same thing often happened when they came to our tournaments. 

The more Taekwondo tournaments that arose in the 80's and 90's (in the U.S.) the more variety of judging we saw. Most older Black Belts and instructors who didn't compete, judged the younger Black Belts, and many of the older judges could not do the splits or kick sky high. The audience was often impressed when a forms competitor kicked to the ceiling, and the judges were too!(and often envious). The audiences cheered, and the judges gave high scores.

The problem being that this was not true to Taekwondo's philosophy, traditional or otherwise. High kicks are a challenge, a show of flexibility, balance, and sometimes strength of the legs. It was not fair to those who were excellent practitioners of Taekwondo, who were flexible enough to kick an opponent's body or face, but could not kick 8 or 9 feet in the air, doing a standing split. It was not fair that a good Taekwondoist should lose forms competition every time, just because the other competitor could do the splits. 

This is why organizations like the ATA held "closed tournaments," to control the rules and judging, and why the ITF has its own rule book on competition. It is more fair for the competitors if everyone is judged on the same criteria, by all judges, at every Taekwondo tournament. When Taekwondo made its move into the Olympic arena, this became imperative. You can't have this wide range of "opinions" about what is a good technique, or a good poomsae cause the judging to be all over the board when you are dealing with international competition and Olympic gold is on the line. It is not acceptable when one judge scores a "4," and another gives a "9." 

Although I had been judging Taekwondo tournament since 1978, I took my first U.S.T.U./WTF referee seminar (level D-3 certification) in 1992 at Grandmaster Ahn's Classic Tournament in Ohio. I went through 12 levels of certification over the following six years (up to A-1). I officiated at many state and national events, was a USA coach at the U.S. Open, at the U.S. Olympic Training Center in 1995, and I was the Indian State Referee Chairman in 1996.

Many of the referee seminars that I attended were conducted by Grandmaster Kowang Woong Kim (KKW 9th Dan #12) of Kenosha, Wisconsin (http://ustkda.com/aboutus.aspx), who at that time, was the Chairman of the Referee Certification Committee for the USTU, and had written the WTF rule book (Master Stoker, and Kwan Jang here probably know who I'm talking about). A couple of other key figures I received training from were GM Hong Kong Kim (USTU Vice President, Ohio state president, and 1992 Olympic coach http://www.hongkongkimtaekwondo.com/grandmasterkim.html ), and GM K.Y. Chai (Indiana state president) of Lafayette, Indiana, and Purdue University Taekwondo Club (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~tkwondo/instructors.htm). 

These officials made it quite clear that WTF approved poomsae competition was to be judged according to accurate targets. At seminars, we reviewed all of the Taegeuk Poomsae for color belts, and Black Belt forms, and specific mention was made, repeatedly, about the punches and kicks being directed at the targets identified in the WTF Poomsae book. Koryo was specifically covered, and every judge and referee was told to knock points off for sky high kicks, and only award points for accurate targets. It is up to the organizing committee, Tournament Director, and Referee chairman to enforce these rules. Judges were told that if they score Poomsae incorrectly, they will be removed from their position at State, National, and International level competitions, but this does not always happen. 

I have had this discussion with my own students many times, and here is one of the problems. As I sit and judge Black Belt Poomsae competition, I sometimes see a seasoned competitor shoot those kicks sky high, and as much as I might shake my head and think to myself, this is not correct, this person is often one of the best technicians competing that day. If this person does a nearly perfect form, and the other competitors kick right on the solar plexus, but their stance is weak, their balance is off, their eye-focus is down, and a number of other reasons, then myself and the other judges award the first place to the high kicker. We are not rewarding the high kick, but rather the fact that the rest of the form was better than anyone else's on the floor, but it has the same effect. 

However, if two people do their form almost identically well, and one kicked at the solar plexus, while the other kicked at the ceiling, the lower kick would win (if the judging is done correctly according to WTF standards). As I am often the senior ranking judge in my ring, I make sure to politely remind other judges of this rule before competition starts. One way to remedy this guessing game at local tournaments, is to attend the Black Belt/Referee meeting before the competition begins. Ask the tournament director, or Referee Coordinator, what the policy of that tournament will be on accurate Poomsae targets (specify Koryo if you wish). This will let you know how to coach your athletes for that day, and will bring the subject up for all the judges to hear, and hopefully be consistent throughout all of the rings.

I hope that sharing these personal experiences which I have had over the years, helps some students to see this issue in a broader sense, but most of the advice that I have read in this thread here has been right on point already.

Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart


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## wade (Mar 5, 2008)

Chief Master, that was nicely put and to be honest hasn't really changed. At my last test on 9 Feb in New Orleans, SGM JP Choi and SGM Hong Kong Kim were on my testing board. After going through my forms, from TG 1 up to Choengwon, one of the major sticking points was where were the target areas for the kicks for the different forms. Of course Koryo came up as I think it always does. On the floor at the US Open, for the most part the forms were being judged pretty evenly. The problem is there are probably fewer than 20 WTF certified poomsae judges in the US. At one division I watched while I was waiting to compete and I saw a young woman do a head level secondary side kick in Koryo and one of the "IR's" gave her a 9.0. To say this is still frustrating at that level is an understatement. The next day I did a poomsae seminar with one other high ranking round eye. The only ones there besides him and I were 3 young Koreans that were "told" by there masters to be there. With this kind of an attitude on the part of the players, coaches and the judges themselves, the US will remain a back water in international competition and coaches like Terry will be continually asking, where do the kicks go? Sad, isn't it.


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## terryl965 (Mar 5, 2008)

wade said:


> Chief Master, that was nicely put and to be honest hasn't really changed. At my last test on 9 Feb in New Orleans, SGM JP Choi and SGM Hong Kong Kim were on my testing board. After going through my forms, from TG 1 up to Choengwon, one of the major sticking points was where were the target areas for the kicks for the different forms. Of course Koryo came up as I think it always does. On the floor at the US Open, for the most part the forms were being judged pretty evenly. The problem is there are probably fewer than 20 WTF certified poomsae judges in the US. At one division I watched while I was waiting to compete and I saw a young woman do a head level secondary side kick in Koryo and one of the "IR's" gave her a 9.0. To say this is still frustrating at that level is an understatement. The next day I did a poomsae seminar with one other high ranking round eye. The only ones there besides him and I were 3 young Koreans that were "told" by there masters to be there. With this kind of an attitude on the part of the players, coaches and the judges themselves, the US will remain a back water in international competition and coaches like Terry will be continually asking, where do the kicks go? Sad, isn't it.


 

Wade I do know where they go but it seems these judges do not. Why are the judges not held to the same high standerds anymore This is the real question.


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## Kacey (Mar 5, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Wade I do know where they go but it seems these judges do not. Why are the judges not held to the same high standerds anymore This is the real question.



It's not limited to KKW competition, either.  The same concerns - physical demonstration over technical correctness - come up in ITF competitions as well.  It's one thing if on year the judges are focusing on stances, while the next they are focusing on power, and so on - but when patterns are done incorrectly and are winning, that's a problem.

Sure, it's fun to watch someone side kick straight up - but what's the purpose?  If it's a little kid, then sure, there might be a target there (e.g. the underside of an adult's chin) - but otherwise, what's the point?  This demonstrates, I think, another facet of _wh_y so many people outside of TKD think that TKD is pretty, but not practical - because they see such things occurring in competition, and if that's what the _winners_ are doing, then it must be _right._  How would observers know any differently, unless they attend a class?  And if they form that opinion watching competition, why attend a class at all?


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## wade (Mar 5, 2008)

Terry, you have been to USAT poomsae competition and yes, I agree, you do know where the kicks go, as do I. I get caught with the same problem as you do. Do it right and lose or do it flashy and win. All IR's are qualified in either sparring, forms or hamadang. Apples, oranges and pears. They are not supposed to judge in areas they are not qualified nor certified in, but! have you ever, and I mean ever, seen an IR that does not think he/she is God's gift to TKD and by gosh they will judge where ever they by God want to? If they won't police themselves, and they won't, how can we, as players and coaches make them? There is no accountability at that level. Until there is we will continue to see flash win of correct technique every time. Uh, except in international competition where it really counts. Then the US tends to get it's collective poomsae butt handed to them on a paper plate. CRAP!


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## terryl965 (Mar 5, 2008)

wade said:


> Terry, you have been to USAT poomsae competition and yes, I agree, you do know where the kicks go, as do I. I get caught with the same problem as you do. Do it right and lose or do it flashy and win. All IR's are qualified in either sparring, forms or hamadang. Apples, oranges and pears. They are not supposed to judge in areas they are not qualified nor certified in, but! have you ever, and I mean ever, seen an IR that does not think he/she is God's gift to TKD and by gosh they will judge where ever they by God want to? If they won't police themselves, and they won't, how can we, as players and coaches make them? There is no accountability at that level. Until there is we will continue to see flash win of correct technique every time. Uh, except in international competition where it really counts. Then the US tends to get it's collective poomsae butt handed to them on a paper plate. CRAP!


 
Wade you are so true and I applaud the post. If I had answers to the problem I would voice them but in this day and age we are a tiny spec in the world of a IR. Thats for the reinsurance of the lack of quality in IR's.


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## mango.man (Mar 5, 2008)

Hopefully nobody minds if I post this which was recently posted on High Octane, as I believe it is relevant to this conversation.

http://xsorbit30.com/users5/highoctane/index.php?topic=671.0 



*Poomsae at Qualifiers and Nationals*
« *on:* *Today* at 01:57:56pm »

 I have a few students who are going to compete in the poomsae qualifiers. Anasazi recommended that I write to SBN Vicki Serbin who just returned from an IR update course. I am posting what she sent to me (I don't think she'll mind).

1. Kicks are preferably to the face. No deduction if it is to the solar plexus.
2. Range of motion bigger than demonstrated on the last set of WTF DVD (2005) but less than the recent kukkiwon ones.
3. More emphasis on lyricism - flow and ebb.  
4. emphasis on correct number of dojaks per poom -e.g. in pal jang, in the back, there are 5 dojaks in one poom (front snap kick, return in place and another front snap kick, outside inside block and double punch)

Pyonwon, at the stomping part, it is an outside inside block and a back fist to the piltrum, not 2 outside inside and the stomping foot needs to be brought up to the knee etc.


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## cflick (Mar 5, 2008)

> One way to remedy this guessing game at local tournaments, is to attend the Black Belt/Referee meeting before the competition begins. Ask the tournament director, or Referee Coordinator, what the policy of that tournament will be on accurate Poomsae targets (specify Koryo if you wish). This will let you know how to coach your athletes for that day, and will bring the subject up for all the judges to hear, and hopefully be consistent throughout all of the rings.


 
This was what I was going to say. 
Find out the "way" the tournament will be judging and make the adjustments accordingly. 
Just as long as your students know that the kick is supposed to be to the solar plexus and continues preforming it this way while training.

This sort of thing happened at the last tournament I was at. The technique was supposed to be a mountain block in sitting stance.
And he had revamped it so it was more of a lunge(or extremely long front stance) with a right single mountain block an a low block. 
It looked cool and so he won...!

As a side note: I'm training under GM K.Y. Chai.


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## terryl965 (Mar 5, 2008)

The problem is the tournament director says one thing and the Official do another. mango.man you beat me to it. I see what they are saying but will these Official actually do.


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## Last Fearner (Mar 6, 2008)

mango.man said:


> Hopefully nobody minds if I post this which was recently posted on High Octane, as I believe it is relevant to this conversation.


 
Mango Man, thanks for posting this. Speaking for myself, I always appreciate hearing what the latest changes of opinions, attitudes, and judging standards are. I do intend to get back into referee certification with the USAT someday soon (I'm going to judge at Master Shinn's tournament in Lansing, MI, on March 15, btw).

I do want to comment on some of things you quoted SBN Vicki Serbin as saying.



mango.man said:


> 1. Kicks are preferably to the face. No deduction if it is to the solar plexus.


If this is the official word from the WTF rules these days, I think it is a sad thing, and a mistake to make this change. While the preferring of higher kicks with no deductions for lower kicks does not punish those who kick to the solar plexus, in my opinion, this will eventually result in the very same problem that standardized, mid-section targets was intended to prevent. Those who are capable of kicking to the face will do so, audiences will like it, and judges will invariable award a half a point or more to the higher kicker. Right back to where we started!



mango.man said:


> 4. emphasis on correct number of *dojaks* per poom -e.g. in pal jang, in the back, there are 5 *dojaks* in one poom (front snap kick, return in place and another front snap kick, outside inside block and double punch)


Forgive my ignorance on this one, but what is a "dojak" in Taekwondo. I am quite familiar with Taekwondo terminology, and referee terms, but this one escapes me.



mango.man said:


> Pyonwon, at the stomping part, it is an outside inside block and a back fist to the piltrum, not 2 outside inside


Is your SBN referring to Pyongwon, and are these movements number 9 & 10, and 19 & 20? Well now, if this is an "official" change, then I would be surprised. I have never heard anyone construe these techniques in Pyongwon as "two inward blocks" but I have also never heard of the first one being a block either. The strike should be to the jaw.  The original description of these techniques, after the stomp and in Juchum Seogi (horse stance) are as follows: "#9) (yell) Oreun Dangyo Teok Chigi (facing straight forward) 10) Oen Dangyo Teok Chigi (facing straight forward)" (From the book: World Taekwondo Federation Taekwondo Poomse, 1975)

I looked at the Kukkiwon website for poomsae (the first time I have done this), and I noticed a few errors in Pyongwon, but I also noticed some changes. They have shortened Pyongwon's form count from the original 25 to 21 movements. They did this by combining these two back-fist strikes in one count (#9 & 10 are now #9 only, and #19 & 20 are now #17). The other two moves that are missing is the former #14 & 24 (drawing the hands back to the hip in the crane stance just before the side kick). In any event, both of these hand strikes are called "deungjumeok dangkyo teokchigi" (Back-fist jaw strike) I don't know why they spelled the second word "dangkyo" - the book spells it "dan gyo" which I believe means to rupture, or dislocate the jaw (teok). There is no mention of a block here.
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/information/information04_03_12_ex1.jsp?div=04


When the Forms were first approved, there was a seminar held in Korea, and only a few books authorized to label, define, and explain the techniques in each form. As subsequent seminars were held, attending Masters were supposed to go back to their respective countries and National Governing Bodies to impart the knowledge identical to what they were shown. The books were written and intended to verify the official version, and remind the Masters of what they were to teach.

Of course, with enough high ranking Grandmasters who gained permission to write their own books, and create their own video/DVD series, many of them changed a few things here and there. Some changes were due to forgetting what they saw at the seminar (and not bothering to verify the correct way), and other changes were because of the idea that if you are high ranking enough, you have a "feel" for what works best, and can modify the poomsae if you want. The problem is that this leads us right back to the same old confusion of "which way is right, and who do we follow next?"  Personally, I would like to see some restrictions so that there is only one approved book and one authorized video series from the Kukkiwon, but everyone wants their chunk of the multi-million dollar market of Taekwondo books, videos, and DVDs.

Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart


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## mango.man (Mar 6, 2008)

Last Fearner said:


> Forgive my ignorance on this one, but what is a "dojak" in Taekwondo. I am quite familiar with Taekwondo terminology, and referee terms, but this one escapes me.
> 
> Is your SBN referring to Pyongwon, and are these movements number 9 & 10, and 19 & 20? Well now, if this is an "official" change, then I would be surprised. I have never heard anyone construe these techniques in Pyongwon as "two inward blocks" but I have also never heard of the first one being a block either. The strike should be to the jaw. The original description of these techniques, after the stomp and in Juchum Seogi (horse stance) are as follows: "#9) (yell) Oreun Dangyo Teok Chigi (facing straight forward) 10) Oen Dangyo Teok Chigi (facing straight forward)" (From the book: World Taekwondo Federation Taekwondo Poomse, 1975)


 
CM Eisenhart

Here are the explainations for both of these as explained later in the thread on High Octane. Keep in mind that I am simply quoting another source here.

http://xsorbit30.com/users5/highoctane/index.php?topic=671.0

*Re: Poomsae at Qualifiers and Nationals*

« *Reply #1 on:* *Yesterday* at 05:10:19pm » Sometimes it is difficult to follow the description of Poomsae meanings. To better explain Lou's point #4 from above, I thought that I might share a description that we use in our training. Lou is referring to step #19 in Taegeuk 8. Following is an explanation:
Quote
Execute a left front kick (Wen Apchagi). Immediately, follow that with a front jump kick, pushing off and kicking with the right foot (Oreun Twio Bakkuo Apchagi). Yell (Kihap) on the second kick. The left foot lands where the right foot formerly was forming a right forward stance (Oreun Apkubi). Execute a right outer forearm, inward body block (Oreun Momtong Makki) followed by rapidly by a double body punch (Momtong Dubeon Jireugi), left fist first.
Lou's point is that all of this action (poom) contains several segments.

Lou's last point is a bit more tricky. In Pyongwon, he is referring to steps #9 and #17. The technique might look like a body block (Momtong Makki) from pictures or even a video, but the description reveals that the technique is a "deungjumeok dankyo teokchigi". That means that it is actually a backfist front strike, but it also includes a movement that pulls an opponent toward you while stretching out the strike. That is why it is critical to be able to understand the technical terminology.

Thanks to Lou (and Master Serbin) for pointing out these subtilties.
« _Last Edit: *Yesterday* at 05:41:34pm by Anasazi2_ » Report to moderator 

*Re: Poomsae at Qualifiers and Nationals*
« *Reply #2 on:* *Yesterday* at 05:33:47pm » Exactly! Dojak per poom is a new term for me so I made sure I was thinking in the right terms. In my classes we would refer to this as techniques per count. So the TG 8 reference is 5 techniques to one count. This keeps the rhythm of the poomsae at the correct meter. It is phrasology just like music. You can play the notes, but if yu don't have the correct tempo and phrasing the music sounds awful (like that analogy Larry).


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## Last Fearner (Mar 7, 2008)

mango.man said:


> CM Eisenhart
> 
> Here are the explainations for both of these as explained later in the thread on High Octane. Keep in mind that I am simply quoting another source here.
> 
> http://xsorbit30.com/users5/highoctane/index.php?topic=671.0


 
Thanks for posting this link, mango man. Just before logging on today, I was trying to think of what term you might have been referring to with the "Dojak." I thought it sounded like Dojang (school), Dobak (uniform), Shijak (begin), and then it hit me - - "Dongjak" (movement). We often use the term "Gibon Dongjak" for basic movements. So I read the posts in your highoctane link and saw that someone there had figured out the mistake too!

It appears that there are some knowledgeable instructors on that site, so there is not much more for me to add. Although, some are confused about those two hand techniques in Pyongwon, they are both chigi (strikes) and neither is a makgi (block). Also, there is no backward strike or block as part of the set up for the first front back-fist, as some had suggested. Although these kinds of alternative applications are often discussed by instructors, they are not part of the official performance of the form if it is not stated as such in the text. Variations of applications are understood by properly trained Master Instructors, and are shared with the student when the time is right, but these concepts are not printed in the books. This preserves the value of having a personal student/instructor relationship with a qualified teacher, but often produces pseudo-instructors who learn from books.

As for the topic of poom count and number of Dongjak with each poom, this is a concept that most veteran instructors are quite familiar with, but it is worth mentioning. The Taegeuk poomsae, for instance, each contains a number of "movements" or individual techniques, but several sets of techniques are often linked together in one "poom" count. A poom count might contain only one technique, such as a single block, or punch, or it might have two or more techniques. Kicks are often linked to the following hand techniques in a set for that section of the form.

We note that updated books from the kukkiwon and WTF, as well as the Kukkiwon website, show a change in poom count for many of the forms as discussed in the link you provided. This is apparently due to the linking of certain techniques to a poom where they had previously been counted individually (IE: the two roundhouse kicks in yuk jang are now linked to the subsequent hand techniques, and the last four techniques that were counted separately, are now counted as two poom sets - thus yuk jang now has a 19 poom count instead of the former 23.

Personally, it does not really matter to me, but what I think happened is that after these forms were officially introduced and published in official textbooks, many high ranking Grandmasters, and Masters with second-hand information, counted the number of techniques according to their own personal preference, instead of checking with the textbook. I've seen many Instructors (Korean and American) who count forms for their students by just saying "Hana, Dul - Hana, Dul - Hana, Dul, Set, Net." They never follow all the way through to be sure they know what the full form count is. Since so many had different opinions as to what it should be, apparently they decided to revise the "official count."  I like to be able to tell my students to go to number 10 of this form, or number 14 of that form, and know that they will all be on the same part of the form as each other.

Oh well!

This is the all the same kind of flip-flopping around that I have seen in Taekwondo forms for thirty-two years. It's one way, then another, then back to the first way - over, and over again. I try not to let it bother me, but just stay current (which is one reason why I think they do it is to see who is staying current), and I just try to focus on the benefit that Poomsae training provides for me as a student, and a teacher.

Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart


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## ellies (Mar 14, 2008)

Tradition is what I know, but the XMA folk are not going for that.  I have a young man who I work with that has been training for two years, already a 3rd Dan working on 4th Dan.  He was demonstrating his skill of Koryo to some of the other folks, and one of the other young man watching actually said "This is what is wrong with TKD today."  The first young man asked him to show him if he could do better, and was quickly humiliated.  Though his kicks were flashier, the other young man had a lot of tradition and skill behind him. He actually  knew the  poomse, and later explained that it had taken him 7 years to achieve his 1st Dan. I found this exchange quite interesting, since it was two younger man.


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