# Would you promote...to Black Belt?



## Master K (Apr 28, 2010)

Let's say you have a student that is working towards earning a Black Belt. If things continue at the current pace the student should test for his/her black belt about a year from now.  You find out that eight or nine months ago the student received a DUI/DWI.  

Would you promote a student that received a DUI/DWI to Black Belt?

I am curious to hear the answers and reasons behind them.  As always, thanks in advance.

Respectfully,
K


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## dancingalone (Apr 28, 2010)

Depends on your belief on whether a BB has a moral dimension associated with it or whether it is merely a marker of skills attainment.  I am sure many on here will say some closer scrutiny is warranted to make sure the student is on the right path before gaining further rank.  This is hardly a novel sentiment and is formally codified in many martial arts using a dojo kun of some type.  Tae kwon do has that tenets framework of courtesy, integrity, self-control, and so on.

Let's dig into this deeper though.  Some of us use contracts with our students.  Generally these legal documents specify the student pays a certain sum over a period of time for training in the school.  Do the contracts specify that there will be some type of character component that would allow a teacher to hold up rank advancement?  

My guess is that most do not.  Even without a legal contract in place, it seems to me that holding up advancement based on a moral failing is a slippery slope for martial arts teachers.  What about grades?  Would you hold up rank for a kid who is making B's and C's instead of A's?  What about your adult college students?  What if they just have a 3.0 instead of a 4.0?  Or how about if they listen to music that has profane language?  Or what if your student is having an affair outside of your dojang and his wife is leaving him because of it?

DWI is a serious problem.  I don't mean to minimalize it at all.  I just wonder if it is appropriate to bring problems from outside into the dojo/dojang itself.


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## Master K (Apr 28, 2010)

First, thanks for responding.

I agree that this speaks to a much larger and deeper issue.  I would rather not raise the essence of this issue just yet.

I don't want to muddy the water with contracts.  Let's assume that there are no contracts in this case.  

What would you do?

Respectfully,
K


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## dancingalone (Apr 28, 2010)

Master K said:


> What would you do?
> 
> Respectfully,
> K



I am primarily concerned with teaching the physical skills.  For this reason I have intentionally kept my classes small in the past to keep quality standards high.  The people who choose to train with me after watching a sample class generally aren't the type of people who would drink and drive, so I pre-screen my students to an extent.

On the off-chance that one of my current students is arrested for something like DWI, I would simply ask if they are OK and whether they need my help or support in some way and leave it at that.  I am my students' martial arts teacher, not their pastor or social worker, and I would not further sanction them for a behavior that is already being addressed by the criminal justice system.

I asked a similar question not too long ago on the TKD forum (search for it if you'd like) where my sister held up her daughter from testing because she had misbehaved at home.  You likely will have some interest in the responses given there.


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## Master K (Apr 28, 2010)

Thanks!  I read through that thread when it was active a while ago.  I appreciate your candor and your insights.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 28, 2010)

From what you posted, this individuals BB exam will come at a time roughly two years after their DUI. How long should a person have to pay for their mistakes? A DUI does not earn a person life in prison. Should it earn them a lifetime exclusion from promotion in their MA?

Having spent about 30 years patching up the victims of drunk drivers, I'm about as adamantly anti-drunk driving as anybody you will find. And I stauchly support stiffer punishments for even a first DUI. But even I don't think they deserve the gas chamber, or life in prison (unless they hurt someone else....).


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## KELLYG (Apr 28, 2010)

I am torn on this subject.  I once had a friend that was pulled for a DUI due to cough syrup, that was prescribed by a DR, while going to get a prescription filled for the antibiotics. Good people can have bad things happen to them. 

 I know of one person that received multiple DUI's that prompted a Breathalyzer being installed on their car, jail time and all the legal ramifications that that entails. I don't think that the second person is necessarily  "a bad person", but would you want your kids to hang out with them.   

So the whole DUI thing is subjective, due to circumstances and a persons personal habits. The thing that concerns me the most is that this person, being a Black Belt, is some one that your students will look up to.  What influence will this new black belt have on your school and its younger members.


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## David43515 (Apr 28, 2010)

I guess it all comes down to wheather or not you feel that you are there to teach morality along with phyical skills, or perhaps that you have a responsability to teach your art only to people you deem moral and trustworthy. Do you have a history of teaching morals along with your fighting style? Do your students KNOW that they are expected to maintain high standards _and what is meant by that, in other words what those standards are?_

If not, can you hold him accountable for not knowing things you haven`t taught?

Two teachers in traditional Okinawan karate show the two extremes of the argument. 

Kambun Uechi was the founder of Uechi ryu karate, he trained in southern china for many years and ran his own school there. His top student,a farmer,got into a fight with a neighbor about water rights and killed the neighbor. Uechi closed the school, returned to Okinawa, and didn`t teach or even demonstrate his art for 16 years because he felt personally responsible.

On the other hand Chotoko Kyan who was one of Gichin Funakoshi`s teachers (Funakoshi brought karate to Japan and founded Shotokan/ Shotokai) routinely gambled and went to cock fights. He also insisted that his students join him in attending brothels and in binge drinking "to improve their karate".


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 29, 2010)

Master K said:


> Let's say you have a student that is working towards earning a Black Belt. If things continue at the current pace the student should test for his/her black belt about a year from now.  You find out that eight or nine months ago the student received a DUI/DWI.
> 
> Would you promote a student that received a DUI/DWI to Black Belt?
> 
> ...



I am not in a position to promote anyone, but I'd say yes.
First of all, said person has paid his debt to society. No need for extra punishment.
Secondly, DUI / DWI is irrelevant to practising a martial art as long as the person is not an alcoholic / addict who brings his problems to class.
Third, there is 2 years between the fact and the test. How far back do you want to look for things to judge people?


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## granfire (Apr 29, 2010)

I'd say, it all depends.

DUIs can be a one time laps of judgment. After 9 month it's really nobody's business anymore

If it's an ongoing thing, there could be a problem, which could spill over into the MA aspect. Last thing you need is a drunk yahoo stirring up trouble. 

So basically, I would not worry about it.


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## scottie (Apr 29, 2010)

David43515 said:


> I guess it all comes down to wheather or not you feel that you are there to teach morality along with phyical skills, or perhaps that you have a responsability to teach your art only to people you deem moral and trustworthy. Do you have a history of teaching morals along with your fighting style? Do your students KNOW that they are expected to maintain high standards _and what is meant by that, in other words what those standards are?_


 
My school is strongly based on "bible teachings" (not here to argue about that either) for me, if it has been that long and he has completed everything that the courts made for him to do and he has paid his debt. Id leave it alone.

I personally, would talk to them and make sure that they understand that they represent our dojo and Christ when I put that belt on them both in and out of the dojo. I would remind them that they are role models and offer help if needed, and I would do it in a loving way, not judgmental. (Which I would have done that when it first took place.) So this time would be more of the role model speech. 

This is only what I would do. A lot depends on what kind of School you run. I have a lot of younger children so the upper rank adults are role models: some not by choice. Good Luck,
 I say test him


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## dortiz (Apr 29, 2010)

I started training right after my wake up call that partying was not going to make a good life. Training got me motivated, focused and on a path that led to great success.
I can only imagine my life had it been a door slamming in my face after I had started in the right direction instead of the great jumping spring to new and better life.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 29, 2010)

Master K said:


> Let's say you have a student that is working towards earning a Black Belt. If things continue at the current pace the student should test for his/her black belt about a year from now. You find out that eight or nine months ago the student received a DUI/DWI.
> 
> Would you promote a student that received a DUI/DWI to Black Belt?
> 
> ...


 
First how far into your students personal lives are you planning on becoming involved and inspecting for compliance with your own set of moral and ethical values?

If you only have a couple students, it will be easier to become more involved and have more insight into their personal lives and thoughts and values and goings ons... if you have hundreds of students then your social interaction will most likely be very shallow at best with only a few students getting a personal relationship going with you.

You really need to figure out how much involvement with a students personal lives, and their moral and ethical values you want to become involved with, and where to draw the line. 

The better question to ask might be if this behavior is a fluke, or an indicator of the students general behavior as a whole. Are they finding themselves in lots of dangerous and shady positions where they are making poor choices or is this a one of type of thing that snapped them back into reality?

Because if this person is constantly finding themselves into trouble, and you are aware of it and are supporting them by giving them skills to make them better at being successful in their dealings then you might find yourself attracting unwanted attention from law enforcement, lawyers, or others because of the association.

I know I was really wild when I started martial arts, and I was looking for an outlet to avoid trouble, without it I would probably be in a much worse and much different place then I am today. 

A DUI is a dumb, and dangerous thing in this day an age, but it is not in and of itself an indicator that someone is of bad moral fiber, or low character. See how they deal with the after effects of the DUI, and how they make changes and go from there would be my suggestion.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 29, 2010)

on second thought you could always recommend he go train at the drunken kung fu place down the street........

kidding


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 29, 2010)

scottie said:


> My school is strongly based on "bible teachings" (not here to argue about that either) for me, if it has been that long and he has completed everything that the courts made for him to do and he has paid his debt. Id leave it alone.
> 
> I personally, would talk to them and make sure that they understand that they represent our dojo and Christ when I put that belt on them both in and out of the dojo. I would remind them that they are role models and offer help if needed, and I would do it in a loving way, not judgmental. (Which I would have done that when it first took place.) So this time would be more of the role model speech.



I understand how a Black Belt makes one represent your dojo.
But how does the BB mean they represent Christ?


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## scottie (Apr 29, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I understand how a Black Belt makes one represent your dojo.
> But how does the BB mean they represent Christ?


 

My school is known in our community for being based and teaching the principles of Christ. Maybe, I should have said being a Black Belt in my school. I was only saying how I would handle that situation, and how I have handled other situations like that.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 29, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I understand how a Black Belt makes one represent your dojo.
> But how does the BB mean they represent Christ?


 
I agree with you, but figure that if the martial arts school bills itself as a joint venture of religion and martial arts, then the Black Belts produced would indeed be held by both sides, and represent both sides of the equation... It would not be my preferred mode to pursue the arts, but I don't begrudge anyone to pursue it the way they think is best for themselves, as long as people who start out understand what they are joining then all power to them.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 29, 2010)

Ok.

I still don't see what one has to do with the other or why it would be a good idea to mix them, but that is going way off topic so I'll not pursue that angle further in this thread.

Thanks for your answers.


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## Drac (Apr 30, 2010)

One thing has *NOTHING* to do with the other..


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 30, 2010)

Master K said:


> Let's say you have a student that is working towards earning a Black Belt. If things continue at the current pace the student should test for his/her black belt about a year from now.  You find out that eight or nine months ago the student received a DUI/DWI.
> 
> Would you promote a student that received a DUI/DWI to Black Belt?
> 
> ...


To preface, we have a huge plaque on the wall with the school rules on them, one of which is that the students will not abuse alcohol or use drugs.

Given that the test is at least a year away, I am inclined to simply keep it in the back of my mind and make sure that he or she is not showing up to class drunk.  

Depending on *how* I found out, I might also talk to him/her to let them know that I am aware and available if they need to talk, I'm available.

I worked for about five years with DUI/DWI offenders, and most were really pretty decent people who had a weakness in one area of their lives.  Having people there to be supportive is probably more helpful than having another finger pointing.

If it never arises again, then assuming that they pass their test, absolutely I'd promote them.  

If they have a pattern of drinking and driving then no, I would not, though I would not kick them out of the school either.  I would explain to them that drinking and driving is not condoned and remind them of the school rules. I would tell them that they need to get their act together on this issue before I would be willing to promote them.  

I'd let them know that I am willing and able to talk to them if they need to chat, but also remind them that they need to seek the help that they need.  

Daniel


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## jks9199 (Apr 30, 2010)

The issue I see is the automatic assumption that a DUI charge is some sign of moral failure.

It's not.  In the US, the _per se_ Blood Alcohol Content limit for DUI is now .08 % mass by volume, generally measured by .08 g/210 liters breath.  It's not hard to get there; you can play with the estimate here to see what I mean.  A 160 lb guy who has two martinis in an hour (not particularly hard) is at a BAC of around .07; so would 6 beers over three hours.  (I picked that time span and number because it's about a normal televised football game, give or take a bit.)  It's pretty easy to get to .08 BAC.  It's not hard to hit .10 BAC, especially if you're celebrating.  (An officer I know found himself in the unenviable position of arresting the BRIDE for DUI between the wedding and the reception.  He couldn't even cut her a break, because the only person with her was even more trashed.)

Incidentally, MADD estimates that the financial cost of a DUI conviction is on the order of $10000 to $20000...  And that's not including any financial hit due to job loss or problems caused by having a restricted license.

A *single* DUI is an indicator of a bad decision.  A pattern of DUIs or related offenses is a different issue.  Without more to judge by, and without any evidence of other problems... why punish him for a lapse in judgement.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 30, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> The issue I see is the automatic assumption that a DUI charge is some sign of moral failure.
> 
> It's not. In the US, the _per se_ Blood Alcohol Content limit for DUI is now .08 % mass by volume, generally measured by .08 g/210 liters breath. It's not hard to get there; you can play with the estimate here to see what I mean. A 160 lb guy who has two martinis in an hour (not particularly hard) is at a BAC of around .07; so would 6 beers over three hours. (I picked that time span and number because it's about a normal televised football game, give or take a bit.) It's pretty easy to get to .08 BAC. It's not hard to hit .10 BAC, especially if you're celebrating. (An officer I know found himself in the unenviable position of arresting the BRIDE for DUI between the wedding and the reception. He couldn't even cut her a break, because the only person with her was even more trashed.)
> 
> ...


 
It's also 100% avoidable. You can call a friend, a family member, have a designated driver, or call a taxi. Hell, if you're a AAA member, they'll come pick you up.


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## jks9199 (Apr 30, 2010)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's also 100% avoidable. You can call a friend, a family member, have a designated driver, or call a taxi. Hell, if you're a AAA member, they'll come pick you up.


I didn't say it wasn't avoidable.

I merely said it's much easier to reach the _per se_ limit than many people understand, and that a single DUI is not an indicator, in and of itself, of anything other than the *bad decision* to get behind the wheel after drinking.  Quite honestly, I've known plenty of people to be at or near BACs of .08 or higher without realizing it.


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## NinjaJax (May 1, 2010)

This might be a time that he needs his training more than ever. Closing the door on him now is going to give him one less option for help. If this is a 1st time offense for him, and he didnt kill someone as a result of it, I dont think it would be beneficial to keep him from his promotion. If this is an ongoing problem with him, then maybe you would have more reason to give him the boot. As his instructor, you are someone that he looks up to. See what you can do to help him. Let the justice system handle his punishment.


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## FieldDiscipline (May 2, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> A *single* DUI is an indicator of a bad decision.  A pattern of DUIs or related offenses is a different issue.  Without more to judge by, and without any evidence of other problems... why punish him for a lapse in judgement.



I'd agree with that I think, although without knowing the individual it's hard to say for sure.  Degree of severity would play apart too.  One off error/bad decision, no one hurt, he's sorry and and a nice guy.  I don't think I'd make an issue of it.  Everyone makes mistakes.


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## James Kovacich (May 2, 2010)

I think that if the testing is a year away and the instructor is deciding "now" that the student could not test. Then the moral thing to do "now" is tell the student that they can not test.

Instead of paying for another year  and not being able to test. Let the student move on and continue in another school. Being close to black belt, they deserve that much at a minimum.


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## d1jinx (May 2, 2010)

Yeah, Id promote him.  Mistakes happen.  i dont know if it was a one time bad decision or a common re-occurance.  But if it has no effect in the dojang, then why would i pass judgement.

Certain things outside the dojang should remain outside.  Unless he is showing up drunk or smelling of alcohol, or creating a disruptive class environment because of his outside issues, its not for me to judge.  

Now if I had parents complaining and it was well known in the school of his issue, it is now disruptive and may require his dismissal.

Martial Arts should be a sanctuary from the outside worlds problems, where one focuses on the betterment of themselves.  Not a place to pass judgement and give out punishments for outside life events.


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## Carol (May 3, 2010)

I'd have a difficult time getting behind the idea of not promoting him, strictly because of his DUI.

How would an instructor find out such a thing?  I suppose s/he could be taking the student's personal info and running background checks on them, on the sly, but that not be an honourable thing to do. 

They could hear it from someone else.   Trouble with that is...you don't really know if it is true unltess you dig in to the issue.  Police logs report arrests, not convictions.  There have certainly been many cases inside and outside of martial arts where someone has bad things about someone else -- and those bad things proved to be untrue, or exaggerated.  

Or, they could hear it from the student themselves...but then the teacher is basically punishing the student for his honesty.   There may be other people in the class that have run in to legal issues too, but have not been as up front.

Unless the person is misusing/abusing his skills off the mat, I would lean towards addressing the issues as they relate to the school.  If the student has not been intoxicated in class, I don't think I would take sanctions agains him.    I certainly don't approve of check kiting (for example), but if the student was current on his tuition, I don't think I would kick a student out simply because they were arrested/convicted on such charges.


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## Kyosanim (May 13, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I understand how a Black Belt makes one represent your dojo.
> But how does the BB mean they represent Christ?



He is saying that being a member of the Christian religion makes him an ambassador of sorts for god, and if he is going to represent god, and his dojo and even martial artists as a whole he needs to behave himself.


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