# Karate / TSD kata from China?  Prove it.



## white belt (Dec 5, 2002)

Anyone ever see present day practicioners, in China, that are from the same lineage that the Okinawan and Korean pioneers came from?  I don't mean TSD or Karate brought back to China.  Undiluted kata that was taught to those outside of China still practiced by Chinese.  Lineage intact, chain unbroken on the mainland.  I have read the different theories / accounts that are common, but nothing that really resembles the Korean or Okinawan / Japanese patterns have I seen yet that are strictly Chinese.  Suggestions?


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## arnisador (Dec 5, 2002)

Uechi-ryu still looks very similar to its Chinese counterpart. The Five Ancestors Fist style of kung fu has striking similarities in some of its forms to some karate forms (e.g. goju-ryu).


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## white belt (Dec 5, 2002)

Arnisador,

Do the Five Ancestor Fist sets look like the typical stepping patterns of the Karate / TSD forms?  Any good studies, besides Patrick McCarthy's, that you could suggest that focus on this conection? 

white belt


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## fissure (Dec 5, 2002)

Pausai (China) > Bassai Dai (Japan) > Balsek (Korea), they are the same form, with only minor differences.


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## arnisador (Dec 5, 2002)

The best I can do I think is refer you to this book (which I have) and the author's tapes. The similarities are great.

History of this style.


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## white belt (Dec 6, 2002)

Thanks for your replies.  The form Bassai(sp?) is one example.  There are dozens of forms in TSD / TKD / Karate.  Are there any more examples, in Five Ancestors Fist or other Kung Fu, of patterns passed on to the other styles?  The web site was informative and appreciated.

white belt

P.S.
The late Gogen Yamaguchi has a book available on his GoJu Ryu which I read is very comprehensive and also expensive.  Any thoughts on it's possible relevence and quality?


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## master dave (Dec 6, 2002)

in tsd the pyung ahn hyungs are okinawan in origin however bassai hyung was devised approximately 450 years ago. bassai was practiced by the buddist monks at the temple of so lim sa. in the ha nam region of china.
 sip soo, this hyung originated from the ha book region of china.

 jin do, approximately 300 years old. belonging to the so lim school of martial arts ha nam region of china.

kong san kun, devised by Ggung and Ssang Gween ha nam region of china.

ro hai hyung, belonging to the so lim school of martial arts china.

there i just proved it!
                                        TANG SOO!:asian:


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## white belt (Dec 6, 2002)

Master Dave,

Any books or videos that you could direct me to?  I would really appreciate it.  I would like to see and examine the ancestor forms of my system of TKD.  We practice the Pal Gae forms.  The black belt forms are standard WTF.  Thanks for your input.

white belt


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## white belt (Dec 23, 2002)

Where did the Palgae forms come from?  I see nothing like them in Chinese patterns.

white belts


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## arnisador (Dec 31, 2002)

They must be principally Japanese in origin then? Surely they were inspired by either Chinese or Japanese forms if nothing else.


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## fissure (Jan 2, 2003)

It is my understanding that the Palgwae poomse were the WTF's first attempt at creating TKD's "own" forms. They were scrapped for the even newer Taegueks, for some reason that I have never heard a good explanation for.Both sets of TKD poomse have all of the same "sets" of movements as the originally used Pinan/Heian forms.


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## white belt (Jan 3, 2003)

If the KTA, now WTF, created the Palgae forms then they ARE truly Korean of origin, no?  If Korean of origin, then TKD is by definition Korean not Japanese or Chinese(?).  It has been said that true Karate cannot exist without kata.  If that is accepted, then TKD IS the forms created by the Koreans after the inception of the KTA/WTF.  American Full Contact Karate had no real common set of American forms for long enough that Kickboxing became the more accepted term/name.  Without forms, the Korean, Japanese and Chinese striking arts might eventually lose their identity too.  Punch, kick sweep, etc. The question "Which country was that again?" might be expressed then a lot more.  Eventually the question would disappear and the identity would become generic Pan Asian kickboxing, no?  I am not one of these in denial about the Chinese or Japanese influence on TKD, but wittling down exactly who developed a form and defining whether or not the applications are similar in nature with another art from another country would tell us a lot.  This is why I am intrigued by any accurate resources shared.  Are there any more?

white belt

p.s.
The Bassai, etc. info. was great, but I am now wanting to focus on the TKD Palgaes.  Thanks!!!!!!!!


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## fissure (Jan 3, 2003)

Here's my take on the whole thing - if someone builds a house out of bricks in a certain way, it's their house. If they show you how to build a house in the same manner with the same bricks, it's your house, built their way.
If you find slightly different bricks, and modify the way you lay these new bricks then it's your house built your way - but it wouldn't have been possible without thier initial instruction.



> If the KTA, now WTF, created the Palgae forms then they ARE truly Korean of origin, no? If Korean of origin, then TKD is by definition Korean not Japanese or Chinese(?).


I would agree with this if the individual movements and "groups" of movements used were new or unique in some way. However. most Palgwae/Taeguek movements are the same as those found in the Heian forms.I don't buy into the idea that its differnet just because its in a different order, or you go left after a certain movement instead of right.Most bunkai enthusiasts maintain that forms represent catalogs tech. than can be interchanged at will. If so, formally changing (that is, mixing and matching to make a "new" poomse) the order or sequince of said tech. seems pointless.
Im not knocking the TKD forms, I think that from a buiness standpoint they had to seperate themselves from Japanese MA. I just don't think they managed to reinvent the wheel - only flip it around and paint it a different color.


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## white belt (Jan 3, 2003)

So, the Heian forms, in your opinion, would be the closest intact relative of the Palgae forms?  Thank you very much for your insight!  This is the kind of info. I want to explore.

white belt


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## TangSooGuy (May 30, 2003)

Well, if we look cloely, we an see that much of the Pyung Ahn (pinan) forms which were created in Okinawa have many similarities to forms such as Kong Sang Koon and Bassi Dai...


when we look at (generally accepted) Instructor lineage, we can see this link traced back to China

Anko Yasutsune Itosu, who created the Pinan/Pung Ahn forms was thought to have created them from the lager form Jae Nam...
in turn most likely taught to him by Sokon/Soshu 'Bushi' Matsumura, who most likely learned from 'Tode' Sakugawa Shungo, who was a student of the Chinese envoy Kong Sang Koon (Kusanku)


so in this way, we can see a definite chineseinfluence, even if it is over a great number of years...


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## RyuShiKan (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TangSooGuy _
> *
> Anko Yasutsune Itosu, who created the Pinan/Pung Ahn forms was thought to have created them from the lager form Jae Nam... *



Actually his name is Itosu Anko or Itosu Yasutsune depending on how you read his given name not Anko Yasutsune Itosu.





> _Originally posted by TangSooGuy _
> *in turn most likely taught to him by Sokon/Soshu 'Bushi' Matsumura, who most likely learned from 'Tode' Sakugawa Shungo, who was a student of the Chinese envoy Kong Sang Koon (Kusanku)
> so in this way, we can see a definite chineseinfluence, even if it is over a great number of years... *




The five Pinan were developed from Kusanku.


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## Zepp (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *The five Pinan were developed from Kusanku. *



Does anyone know what the name of the style Kusanku practiced was?


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