# Street fight against a jabber/boxer



## Senin (Feb 9, 2007)

How would a ninjutsu fighter fight against a boxer-type on the street? What I have noticed over the years in America, when a street fight begin and two square off, at least one will go into his Mohammed Ali style of fighting.  Jumping, throwing a few jabs before the other punches.  Often times in martial arts training, people train for the tsuki- one straight committed punch. That is relatively easy to avoid, defend, then attack.  But what about those (not so committed) jabs?


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## Whitebelt (Feb 9, 2007)

I know nothing about ninjutsu so you can dismiss this straight away: I'd say grappling/clinching the fellow would be the best option seeing as you dont want too many of these jabs to land and they are quite hard to brush off, putting them on the floor although quite an extreme step would stop the jabs coming and give you an upper hand.


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## DWeidman (Feb 9, 2007)

Senin said:


> How would a ninjutsu fighter fight against a boxer-type on the street? What I have noticed over the years in America, when a street fight begin and two square off, at least one will go into his Mohammed Ali style of fighting.  Jumping, throwing a few jabs before the other punches.  Often times in martial arts training, people train for the tsuki- one straight committed punch. That is relatively easy to avoid, defend, then attack.  But what about those (not so committed) jabs?



First off -- I haven't seen much in the way of jab-fighting on teh r34l str33ts -- but maybe your mileage varies.

That aside -- what you do depends on the circumstances.  I will expect to hear "walk away" as the #1 response here... if a guy wants to box you -- it probably isn't a r34l fight.  And probably a good answer...

That aside as well -- assuming you decide to jump into the fray -- then kicking and using kamae are probably your best bet.  Take him out of his game.

But yes -- we do have an issue with non-committed attacks in general.  Some more so than others.

-DW


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## Kage-Ronin (Feb 9, 2007)

> That aside as well -- assuming you decide to jump into the fray -- then kicking and using kamae are probably your best bet. Take him out of his game.


 
I will have to agree with MR Weidman here. 
Kamae is a good safe bet. It's interesting how Ichimongi can be used against the jab.
I will add a caveat here: if you train it against someone who is actually punching with speed, intent, energy, strength, and footwork.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Feb 9, 2007)

Footwork. In the direction of choice.


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## Don Roley (Feb 9, 2007)

Senin said:


> What I have noticed over the years in America, when a street fight begin and two square off, at least one will go into his Mohammed Ali style of fighting.



At that point, I am gone. :redcaptur 

Dan said a lot more that is damn good. Facing off for a fight just does not seem to be all that common. I worry more about a sudden sucker punch or attack than someone announcing his intention by facing off and getting into a boxing stance.


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## Senin (Feb 9, 2007)

I'm not necessarily saying the guy taking the boxing stance is a good boxer, just that is what commonly happens.  That is/was our culture--- boxing (nowadays it seems to be turning to MMA).  But I have seen it time and time again.  The two square off and one guy goes into the hopping/wild-jabbing type of thing.  You are right, not exactly the committed punches, but a few lucky ones could do damage.  I think your kamae would have to be pretty fast to deal with that.  I'll have to try Ichimonji in that situation.

Maybe a few kicks would do the trick (don't know much about Mauy Thai, but maybe that is where it is useful).

Yeah, it seems the committed attack is much easier to deal with--- I really hate those jabbers.


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## Don Roley (Feb 9, 2007)

Senin said:


> But I have seen it time and time again.  The two square off and one guy goes into the hopping/wild-jabbing type of thing.  You are right, not exactly the committed punches, but a few lucky ones could do damage.  I think your kamae would have to be pretty fast to deal with that.  I'll have to try Ichimonji in that situation.



Well, there are tons of videos on the internet of two people fighting. I have yet to see one where people have done what you say outside of a school yard and friends of mine with a lot of experience have said they have never seen a jab in a real fight.

And have you seen old photos of boxers? Before they starting using gloves that could take a lot of the blows they used to keep their arms _way_ out there- almost like ichimonji. Probably not applicable to the conversation but I thought I would throw it out.


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## Alan Witty (Feb 9, 2007)

Senin said:


> How would a ninjutsu fighter fight against a boxer-type on the street? What I have noticed over the years in America, when a street fight begin and two square off, at least one will go into his Mohammed Ali style of fighting. Jumping, throwing a few jabs before the other punches. Often times in martial arts training, people train for the tsuki- one straight committed punch. That is relatively easy to avoid, defend, then attack. But what about those (not so committed) jabs?


 

We actually played with this a few nights ago.  One of our students used to box.  So one thing that was tried was to trap the the jab using Jumonji.  Even when a trap did not work the result was a disruption of the oppoents timining that left an opening.  Another method I have seen was to simply open the distance and than leave a hole for the other person to lead into.

Actully I think you will see more in the way of a cross or a hook.  Flailing is the best way to describe it.

Just  a few thoughts.


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## rutherford (Feb 9, 2007)

Shoot him.

Slip the jab and stick a knife in his eye.

Really, however you like.  

Sometimes, Ichimonji is just the tiniest movement.  Doesn't have to be fast.

You can also intercept a fast attack with Jumonji.  You can skip the trap, especially for the second jab.


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## jks9199 (Feb 10, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> First off -- I haven't seen much in the way of jab-fighting on teh r34l str33ts -- but maybe your mileage varies.
> 
> That aside -- what you do depends on the circumstances.  I will expect to hear "walk away" as the #1 response here... if a guy wants to box you -- it probably isn't a r34l fight.  And probably a good answer...



I was going to call him on that myself...  

My experience is that the guys who are going to square off and fight aren't out to really hurt each other so much as "prove their manhood."  These are the guys whose fights start with a pushing match and often a lot of verbal crap...  The real deal fights?  They don't get the warning and build up; the guy that wants to hurt the other one jumps his intended victim NOW.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 10, 2007)

We had Shihan Michael Asuncion up here in Alma very recently and when doing some teaching at one time he almost looked like a boxer.  Really smooth beautiful movement and distancing that disrupted the opponents attack.

When dealing with someone who wants to throw that Jab use distance as your friend and make them overextend. (I know this is easier said than done)  Get them to commit to their jab and have to reach.  If you can do this then you may have quite a few options available. (if you cannot well you had better do something else like closing the distance)

I will also agree that very few people who are intent on doing you real *serious* harm are going to start a violent encounter by putting their fists up and saying come on.  That may be how it is done in grade school but rarely in the real world does it unfold that way.  In the real world it will probably be dirty, viscious and the attack will come out of nowhere with the perpetrator trying to get as much advantage as possible. (so you need to be able to feel when it is coming)


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## saru1968 (Feb 10, 2007)

Never in my whole life have i seen someone 'square up' and jab attack etc as other have said it just tends to kick off, after all if you get verbal warning then one can leave.


Funny enough we did some jab defence before a couple of months back, basic timing, distance and Jodan Uke. Good fun but not what i'd do outside.


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## onikarasu (Feb 10, 2007)

IMHO You should simply control the distance until you find an opening,or draw him into a fully commited punch.Uke nagashi is also a good one.A couple well placed koppo ken (or whatever you prefer)can make some one give up the fight in alot of situations.


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## elder999 (Feb 10, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> Well, there are tons of videos on the internet of two people fighting. I have yet to see one where people have done what you say outside of a school yard and friends of mine with a lot of experience have said they have never seen a jab in a real fight.
> .


 
I have-of course, the guy was a boxer.....with a knife in his hand.


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## Ronnin (Feb 10, 2007)

IMO, if you find yourself in a situation with a boxer/striker, chances are he's forgotten about his legs. Attack his legs, this has proven VERY effective for me in real situations. At the very least he will throw his hands down and jump his lower body back and out of the way, thus leaving a nice target for his face. This is also a very good fake.


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## Don Roley (Feb 10, 2007)

elder999 said:


> I have-of course, the guy was a boxer.....with a knife in his hand.



That I can believe real easily. There seems to be two different ways the knife is used in the street most often- the way you faced and grabbing with one hand and pumping the blade in and out of the guy with the other.

One thing I would like to point out is that when we talk about controling the space we are mainly talking about not getting in a position where the other guy can get to us without taking a step. But if we are in a position where someone can just reach out and touch us- like for a jab, it goes both ways. And in that position I have always been trained to suppress the limb able to reach out to me. Just resting your hand on the lead arm and being able to take advantage of _kansetsu waza_ oppurtunities seems the logical choice if you can't get totally out of range of a jab.


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## Shizen (Feb 10, 2007)

Where I work we have had some fights here and there but I have only seen one where the two will do as you speak (square off and all). The one i saw where the two men squared off both were in a somewhat boxer stance and throwing jabs at each other, long story short the fight was brokken up in about ten seconds by there friends.  And I think that with these typ of attackers just being in a good kamae and leaving them no opening to hit you might just get it so the give up and say "your not wortht it", or they might just get mad and and become commited to hurt you. in which case....

But I am no expert this is just what i have wittnessed


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## Seattletcj (Feb 10, 2007)

Has anyone mentioned to keep your hands up? Tucking your chin when moving in with whatever you are doing may be a good idea too.


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## bencole (Feb 11, 2007)

Seattletcj said:


> Has anyone mentioned to keep your hands up?


 
I distinctly remember someone in another thread reminding practitioners to understand why we leave our hands out after we punch in the Bujinkan, and why we should learn to generate knock down power from that position.... :mst: 

The idea of practicing this was called "absurd", "dangerous" and a whole bunch of other junk by people ranging from Seattletcj, to Rubber Tanto, to Richard Ray.

Would any of you guys care to explain how the dynamics of keeping your hands up against a jab differs so greatly from the dynamics of having your hands up after a punch?

For me, they are one and the same. I'm pretty confident that Hatsumi-sensei would agree.

-ben


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## Kage-Ronin (Feb 11, 2007)

> Would any of you guys care to explain how the dynamics of keeping your hands up against a jab differs so greatly from the dynamics of having your hands up after a punch?


 
Are you referring to after the "lunge punch" the gets so much bad press?

If so, then I would think then it's because one is at the end of movement and off balance, vulnerable to being grabbed or countered?

For example the guy who boxes left lead, if he doesn't retract his jab quick enough, the opponent will right cross over his jab hand because at that moment he has no gaurd and in vulnerable.

If thats not what you're referring to, then ????


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## Seattletcj (Feb 11, 2007)

bencole said:


> Would any of you guys care to explain how the dynamics of keeping your hands up against a jab differs so greatly from the dynamics of having your hands up after a punch?
> 
> -ben



I dont really understand the question. The jab is a punch. 
Anyway, I'm gonna keep my hands up no matter what. I'd rather not get knocked out then to stay within the boundaries of an image.


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## bencole (Feb 11, 2007)

Kage-Ronin said:


> Are you referring to after the "lunge punch" the gets so much bad press?


 
Kage-Ronin, you are joining a conversation that has been going on for a few weeks now. The answer is "yes" but please go and read these other threads on "Realistic Training" and "Seeing the Light" (since moved to the MMA part of the board) before you jump in.



			
				Kage-Ronin said:
			
		

> If so, then I would think then it's because one is at the end of movement and off balance, vulnerable to being grabbed or countered?


 
If you are off balance when you punch, you are punching incorrectly. Sorry. 



			
				SeattleTCJ said:
			
		

> I dont really understand the question. The jab is a punch.


 
I know what a jab is. Now, given that you are "keeping your hands up" to defend against this punch, how can having your hand(s) up as a defense be considered "good" while having your hand(s) up as an offense be considered "bad"? 

The question is pretty straightforward, imo.

Is there a magical pill that transforms hands up from being defensive vs. offensive? If not, then why not *TRAIN* in keeping your hand out after a punch? 

(Hint: It can act as "defense" at the same time, then switch to offense, no defense, no offense, no defense.) 

I'll check back tomorrow to see if you guys can come up with a reasonable reason why it is acceptable to have one's hands up in defense, but not in offense.....

Good luck!

-ben


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## Kreth (Feb 11, 2007)

bencole said:


> Kage-Ronin, you are joining a conversation that has been going on for a few weeks now. The answer is "yes" but please go and read these other threads on "Realistic Training" and "Seeing the Light" (since moved to the MMA part of the board) before you jump in.


And let's make sure *this* thread doesn't turn into another tired rehash of TMA vs. MMA like those two did, mmmkay?


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## Tenchijin2 (Feb 11, 2007)

Ben, having your hands "UP" is not anything like having your hands "out" after a punch which is what was being discussed previously.


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## Kage-Ronin (Feb 11, 2007)

> Kage-Ronin, you are joining a conversation that has been going on for a few weeks now. The answer is "yes" but please go and read these other threads on "Realistic Training" and "Seeing the Light" (since moved to the MMA part of the board) before you jump in.


 
MR Cole, I will go read those threads like you suggested, however I am not "jumping in" as you put it. I contributed to this thread earlier and have been following it on an infrequent basis. Please see post #4 of this thread.



> If you are off balance when you punch, you are punching incorrectly. Sorry.


 
Yup I agree 100%. ANY overextension will lead to being out of balance. And if you are then no matter what art you are practicing then you are wrong.




> And let's make sure *this* thread doesn't turn into another tired rehash of TMA vs. MMA like those two did, mmmkay?


 
Was this in reference to my bringing up boxing? If so, I was just trying to use that particular movement (the jab) as an example to try and understand the question.




> I know what a jab is. Now, given that you are "keeping your hands up" to defend against this punch, how can having your hand(s) up as a defense be considered "good" while having your hand(s) up as an offense be considered "bad"?


 
Ummmm it's not? Isn't Ichimonji an example of keeping your hands up for offense as well as defense? 
Or how about hoko? The hands are up, not necassarily out, but can be used both for offense and defense.


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## Seattletcj (Feb 11, 2007)

bencole said:


> I know what a jab is. Now, given that you are "keeping your hands up" to defend against this punch, how can having your hand(s) up as a defense be considered "good" while having your hand(s) up as an offense be considered "bad"?



Ok I think I know what your saying now. But As Aric pointed out, having the hands "up" and "out" are different things.



> The question is pretty straightforward, imo.
> Is there a magical pill that transforms hands up from being defensive vs. offensive? If not, then why not *TRAIN* in keeping your hand out after a punch?


Because
1) out is not up, as most people use the term.
2) You are more likely to get knocked out, if your arm is out :idea:




> I'll check back tomorrow to see if you guys can come up with a reasonable reason why it is acceptable to have one's hands up in defense, but not in offense.....
> Good luck!


You can see that hands up protecting the head  are different from hands "up" at chest level or extended out, right?


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## Don Roley (Feb 11, 2007)

Tenchijin2 said:


> Ben, having your hands "UP" is not anything like having your hands "out" after a punch which is what was being discussed previously.



Oh? Have you considered that maybe you have not heard some of the stuff others here have? You probably know that I complain a lot about how there is a lot of mistaken instruction still making the rounds of the non- Japan Bujinkan.

And the talk I see here about the punch, etc is not what I am being told to do in Japan. I have been told quite plainly that you are never out of kamae if you are doing good taijutsu. If you are punching, you are in kamae or you  are punching wrong. If you do a punch correctly, then you are in a variation of something like ichimonji at the end.

Of course, I do not think that most of the American Bujinkan can even throw a punch to the standards that the Japanese used to be held to.


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## Tenchijin2 (Feb 11, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> Oh? Have you considered that maybe you have not heard some of the stuff others here have? You probably know that I complain a lot about how there is a lot of mistaken instruction still making the rounds of the non- Japan Bujinkan.
> 
> And the talk I see here about the punch, etc is not what I am being told to do in Japan. I have been told quite plainly that you are never out of kamae if you are doing good taijutsu. If you are punching, you are in kamae or you are punching wrong. If you do a punch correctly, then you are in a variation of something like ichimonji at the end.
> 
> Of course, I do not think that most of the American Bujinkan can even throw a punch to the standards that the Japanese used to be held to.


 
Regardless, Don, my point is 100% accurate. ''Hands up" and "arm extended" are NOT THE SAME THING. I don't care what you think of the relative quality of either.

My point is that trying to equate leaving your arms out after a punch with having your hands up to gaurd your head (or whatever else) is very different. Not whether one is good and one is not.

Okay? Don't change the subject.


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## Don Roley (Feb 11, 2007)

Tenchijin2 said:


> My point is that trying to equate leaving your arms out after a punch with having your hands up to gaurd your head (or whatever else) is very different.



Are they? Are you talking about getting into a boxing stance instead of a Bujinkan kamae, or are you merely saying that _in your experience_ you don't see how punching and kamae are part of the same thing?


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## Tenchijin2 (Feb 11, 2007)

This is ridiculous. I have no idea what you're talking about. You know nothing about my experience, Don. Really.

Note to all moderators: this forum has become absurd. Until some of the stupidity that turns all threads into pointless arguments is reigned in, this will be the standard. Please make careful note of who derailed this, and who clearly wants to argue the same issues over, and over again.

Enjoy! I've got better things to do.

Aric Keith


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## bydand (Feb 11, 2007)

Tenchijin2 said:


> Okay? Don't change the subject.



Good advice, kind of ironic considering you are one of a few who has changed the subject from what to do with a jabber/boxer to the old, beat to frigging death, undefendable (only because both sides will NEVER change their opinion) argument about hand out or not after a lunge punch.  Go ahead and argue that this is directly tied to the original discussion, but before you do, carefully reread the whole thread and you will see, it went from keep hands up, to the argument about leaving it out after a lunge punch.  


Back to the original subject, There has been a couple of posts about boxers/jabbers forgetting about their feet.  I also have found this to be true, except for their footwork they might as well be legless beings.  When you do take a swipe at their legs, you can almost see the change in attitude from "I'm gonna pound this fool into a pulp."  To: "Oh crap, I cannot go down." and their whole positioning changes to compensate.  I like that moment personally.  Granted I can't say I have seen it a lot, once is too much really, but it has been there with everybody who fancied themselves a boxing type.  

NO I DON'T MEAN A REAL TRAINED BOXER!!  Those guys have some serious skill and training and are as aware of their feet as any MA's i know.


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## Tenchijin2 (Feb 11, 2007)

Bydand, you're full of crap. I SAID NOTHING regarding the 'perennial debate' at all. I only pointed out that having your hands up is not the same as having them out. Please show me where I said anything else.

Please, quote it. I'll wait.



I did not change the subject of the thread. I have no interest in the topic of whether or not leaving the arm extended is good or bad. It was Ben who decided to bring that into the conversation. And Don who decided to carry it forward.

What is going on with this place?


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## Seattletcj (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm curious as to why the mods havent jumped in here. These were not the OPs questions. To leave arm out or not. American vs Japanese methods. etc. etc.

 hmmmmmm.



....keeping your hands up to protect your head vs a jab.
Where is the problem?   :erg:  Is it that controversial ?

ROFL


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## bydand (Feb 11, 2007)

Tenchijin2 said:


> Bydand, you're full of crap.



No need to get personal.  I am not saying you are the one who derailed the thread, just you are one who jumped into the fray when it began and started to take it down the flame path with comments that were boarderline personal, and now made the jump to personal insults.  If I had not worked around construction workers for the past 25 years, being told I'm full of crap might have meant something, but shoot, I get told worse than that by lunch usually, and by people I know.


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## Kreth (Feb 11, 2007)

Admin Note:

Thread locked pending Admin review.

Kreth/Jeff Velten
MT Senior Moderator


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