# Leung Ting Comparison



## Nicholas82555 (May 6, 2010)

I've heard just about all the stories about LT and his Dead President making machine. I'll be the judge of the negative side of the house.

All I want to know is how does the LT system compare to other WC,VT  systems as far as training and effectiveness?


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## El_Nastro (May 6, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> I've heard just about all the stories about LT and his Dead President making machine. I'll be the judge of the negative side of the house.
> 
> All I want to know is how does the LT system compare to other WC,VT  systems as far as training and effectiveness?



I've done LT & Ip Ching WC, and they're the same system. The differences lie in the fact that every WC practioner puts his own spin on certain things, and has his own way of applying the principles. Depending on the practioner, certain things are emphasized, other things are de-emphasized. The difference between LT, Ip Ching & probably LT & any other Ip Man-branch (excluding William Cheung) reflect nothing more than the head-instructor's personal expression. 

That being said, LT's WC seems to me to be slightly more focused on aggressively powering through your opponent and beating the snot out of him with a blitz chainpunch attack, & Ip Ching puts more emphasis on controlling the opponent and only launching into "beat-down" mode once you have control of the situation and there's a definite hole in the opponent's structure.  

But these differences are very, very slight in degree. At the end of the day, they're the same system. If you choose an LT school, rest assured that you're not missing out on anything vs. another school. (excluding William Cheung, of course.)


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## Vajramusti (May 6, 2010)

Huge differences between LT's, Ip Chun's wc and what I do.But I don't care to argue.

joy chaudhuri


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## El_Nastro (May 6, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> Huge differences between LT's, Ip Chun's wc and what I do.But I don't care to argue.
> 
> joy chaudhuri



I guess it depends on your definition of what does and does not constitute a "_huge_ difference".

The point I was trying to make is that if the dude decides to take LT WC in lieu of some other branch (excluding William Cheung!), ultimately he's not going to be missing out on any key concepts or principles, at least not as far as I know.

Personally, LT's WC is my least favorite. I prefer Ip Ching's WC, & from what I've seen of Wong Shun Leung's WC, I like that better than LT's as well. But it all goes back to the same source. Each of those guys has made a few tweaks to the system, & each has put his own spin on it, but it's all Ip Man WC. Regardless of what branch you learn, by the time you finish learning all the forms you'll be able to put your _own_ spin on it.


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## Nicholas82555 (May 6, 2010)

I like your analysis. My first exposure to the WC system will be in a few weeks under Sifu Kenneth Chung/Ben Der out of Stanford University/San Jose. I look forward to this lifetime commitment.


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## El_Nastro (May 6, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> I like your analysis. My first exposure to the WC system will be in a few weeks under Sifu Kenneth Chung/Ben Der out of Stanford University/San Jose. I look forward to this lifetime commitment.



Right on man. I just looked up "Sifu Kenneth Chung", & it looks like he's a student of Leung Sheung. Leung Sheung was one of Ip Man's first students, & the man who taught Leung Ting. (LT says Ip Man taught him, and that's _sort of true_, but really it was Leung Sheung who taught LT). Looks like you probably found a good school. Have fun!


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## dosk3n (May 7, 2010)

I dont really know much about LT style as my sifu trained under both Ip Chun and Ip Ching but we have recently had a student join who trained under a LT style WC and when we were doing some free style pad work he was getting me to try some stuff that they would do.

I agree with what was said before it is a very forward and beat the shizle straight of your oponent style. Lot of power put into it.

I can see some advantages in it but it is not the style I learn and I guess it wasnt for him wither since he has changed school.

Im not putting the style down at all please dont get me wrong there all I am saying is what was said already that it is the individuals spin on the style and at the end of the day once youve learnt it you put your own spin on it. 

If thats whats available do it as it may be the right style for you as a person. Then again it may not. Its all taste but you will never find out without taking that first step.


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## El_Nastro (May 7, 2010)

dosk3n said:


> I dont really know much about LT style as my sifu trained under both Ip Chun and Ip Ching but we have recently had a student join who trained under a LT style WC and when we were doing some free style pad work he was getting me to try some stuff that they would do.
> 
> I agree with what was said before it is a very forward and beat the shizle straight of your oponent style. Lot of power put into it.
> 
> ...



Did you see the Fight Quest episode about Wing Chun? The guys learned from Leung Ting & his students. Here's how it went down: At the end of the episode when it was time to fight, both the Fight Quest guy and the Leung Ting student ran straight at each other and basically tried to out-chainpunch the other guy. 

They just sort of ran into each other throwing chain punches as fast and as hard as they could, which is the typical Leung Ting approach.

My problem with this approach is: what's the point of all that chi sau practice if you're not even going to try to use any of it? If the only thing you do is try to overwhelm your opponent with punches, why bother to do chi sau at all? 

If someone's coming at you with a berserker barrage of punches, I think there's better ways to handle it than to try to out-punch your opponent. For example, you could wedge a wu sau man sau into your opponents punches, and once you make contact, actually use some of that chi sau practice to gain control of the situation, and _then_ open up with a barrage of punches.


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## KamonGuy2 (May 7, 2010)

Leung Ting students tend to rely heavily on outspeeding their opponent. The teachers and students that I have trained with previously have been extremely quick, but lacked conviction in their punches and 'cleverness' which usually comes wit wing chun techniques (such as outpositioning your opponent etc). Im not saying the WT system is rubbish, just that it adopts a slightly different fighting tactic than other chun schools

I think Bosteppi has mentioned this previously


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## yak sao (May 7, 2010)

The approach of WT as I understand it (having studied it now for 15 years) is if we can hit, we hit.
As with all WC, we strive for economy of motion, why use 2 moves when 1 will suffice. we don't stick with our opponent for the sake of sticking when chainpunching will take care of the problem. Chainpunching is not the only tool in our toolbelt, but a good carpenter can do masterful work with a minimum of tools. and more often than not, chainpunching is all that's needed.

As for the fight quest show, that was simply a tournament type situation, that is not how we lat sao (spar).


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## geezer (May 7, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> Leung Ting students tend to rely heavily on outspeeding their opponent. The teachers and students that I have trained with previously have been extremely quick, but lacked conviction in their punches and 'cleverness' which usually comes wit wing chun techniques (such as outpositioning your opponent etc). Im not saying the WT system is rubbish, just that it adopts a slightly different fighting tactic than other chun schools
> 
> I think Bosteppi has mentioned this previously


 
Personally, I'm a huge fan of the WT system ... although not a fan of my former sifu LT himself. However, there is a lot of variation in the way the different WT groups are taught. Our "VT" (no longer associated with LT in any way!) group emphasis good technique, speed and power. I'm not the fastest guy around, and am a bit smaller than average, so I have to put "conviction" into my punches. Also, I should note that beginners and intemediates are taught agressiveness and simple approaches like blitzing. As you become more adept at chi-sau, I believe that the WT system becomes very soft. It's good stuff. Just find the right teacher... whatever lineage you pick.


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## Nicholas82555 (May 7, 2010)

All points well taken. The only issue I now have with this straight forward blitz as one said, why the chi sau and other techniques, why punch for punch (the object is to hit and get hit as less as possible if at all). Lastly, if I know this is ur main staple of attack ur in trouble. Other systems I've trained in would simple side step and u catch what u thought u had for me from the blind side whether its a kick or punch. Remember ur not the only speedster on the block, so the total package would be in order. I don't care how fast a person is, timing will u everytime.

A convicted attack is better than a few fast punches. I mentioned an earlier thread the WC men from HK in Mas Oyama's 1st World Tournament who had their heads handed to them. Although their techniques were poor, there was absolutely no conviction in throung a powerful solid blow even when the Kyokushin man stood there right in front of them..sigh   Give me a break)


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## Xue Sheng (May 7, 2010)

geezer said:


> intemediates are taught agressiveness and simple approaches like blitzing. As you become more adept at chi-sau, I believe that the WT system becomes very soft. It's good stuff. Just find the right teacher... whatever lineage you pick.


 
This is not an on topic response but I wanted to make a comment on this.

I recently crossed hands with a man who has been in Wing Chun for many years and was a student of Augustine Fong and I have to tell you in simple tuishou he felt a lot like my taiji Sifu. However in application he was very different, which is to be expected. I must say I was rather impressed at the relaxed nature of his tuishou (Chi-sau).


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## hunt1 (May 7, 2010)

All wing chun shares a common dictionary of movements and concepts. William cheungs is no different it just comes at things from a different pov. still uses tan bong etc. 

 In general differences are due to personal understandings of how things should be done.

 The crucial difference that makes different styles of wing chun truly different is the use and understanding of body mechanics, This is the core of wing chun and there is a vast range of differences.


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## mook jong man (May 7, 2010)

The Chi Sau is only for when your strikes are being obstructed or blocked , if they are not being obstructed then there is no need for Chi Sau.

As long as you have a good stance to transmit the force through to your arms then chain punching combined with wrist latching is a very effective method to put the opponent on the defensive and off balance.

As for trying to side step the attack this may only be possible if he has started attacking from out of range and has telegraphed his intentions.

Most likely the attack will be launched either from kicking range or from one step away combined with a guard entering technique so that he has control of your lead arm.

If you try to side step after he has contact with your arms then the hours of Chi Sau practice will come into play and he will detect your weight shift and adjust his stance accordingly to face you usually while latching you back in so you can't get away.

Most Wing Chun systems  have techniques for striking to the immediate sides with a pivot anyway so it is not really a drama if somehow the opponent manages to luckily avoid a non telegraphic centreline punch.

Most can't even block them when you stand in front of them and tell them you are going to punch , because they are so directly aimed and made with no pre-movement whatsoever or thats the way they should be anyway , its even hard for us Wing Chun guys to see them coming and we deal with them all the time.

There are ways to nullify chain punching using Tan / Bong etc but it does require a fair bit of speed and skill.

I have side stepped chain punching before when it was too fast and powerful for me to deflect with Tan / Bong but It was combined with sticking hands technique and footwork from the wooden dummy.

At least this way you still have contact with his arms so you can (A) Sense his intentions (B) Reduce to zero the chance of his closest arm attacking you from the side as you step around to the blindside.

Of course as you step around you should also be sticking to his arm with an appropriate technique ( I try to time it so I deflect his punch with a Tan Sau on the outside of his arm as I step to the side).

 So it would be my right hand Tan Sau to the outside of his right arm punch) while simultaneously striking either up high to the head or down low with a palm strike to the kidneys with my other hand.


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## Nicholas82555 (May 7, 2010)

I love drawing this wealth of knowledge from all of u WC men This will give a solid foundation stepping into this system for the 1st. I'm not a political on any plane, I just want what is pratical, grounded and effective. Time is a non issue because when a person attacks he should want to be felt and not because he just happened to get an unexpected cheap shot it))


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## mook jong man (May 7, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> I love drawing this wealth of knowledge from all of u WC men This will give a solid foundation stepping into this system for the 1st. I'm not a political on any plane, I just want what is pratical, grounded and effective. Time is a non issue because when a person attacks he should want to be felt and not because he just happened to get an unexpected cheap shot it))


 
I am not from Leung Ting lineage by the way , I am from TST line but I imagine the techniques and tactics would probably be universal and used in most Wing Chun systems .
You train long enough and from trial and error you find that they are just common sense .


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## geezer (May 8, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> I am not from Leung Ting lineage by the way , I am from TST line but I imagine the techniques and tactics would probably be universal and used in most Wing Chun systems .
> You train long enough and from trial and error you find that they are just common sense .



Well, I don't know if they_ all_ illustrate common sense, but everything I've seen you post, _Mook_, makes a lot of sense to me. It definitely makes me want to learn more about how the TST lineage does WC.


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## bully (May 9, 2010)

When I first learnt WC I wasnt aware there were any different lineages!!

It was early 90's when the net was in its infancy for normal people.

I had the book with Ip Chun on the front and what it said/showed was pretty much how I had been taught, so I thought that was it!! How wrong I was ;-)

Only since getting back into WC and coming on here etc, do I now know about the different flavours. From a personal perspective I would try all of them if I could. I think of course it is wise to train in one as a base, even if you dont "agree" with some of what you see or do in another there is always ideas to take onboard. In our WC life we may have to change lineages too, due to moving away, falling out with sifu, etc etc. 

Going on from what Geezer said in the other thread, the advantage with coming on here is respect for each others lineages. There is another board I go on, I dont post much and it sometimes makes me want to give up WC!! They bash it so much, and it is a WC forum!!!


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## mook jong man (May 9, 2010)

geezer said:


> Well, I don't know if they_ all_ illustrate common sense, but everything I've seen you post, _Mook_, makes a lot of sense to me. It definitely makes me want to learn more about how the TST lineage does WC.


 
Yeah thats the problem with common sense , sometimes its not all that common .


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## zepedawingchun (May 10, 2010)

bully said:


> . . . . . There is another board I go on, I dont post much and it sometimes makes me want to give up WC!! They bash it so much, and it is a WC forum!!!


 
Which forum is that?


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## KamonGuy2 (May 10, 2010)

yak sao said:


> chainpunching is all that's needed.


Thats a very dangerous opinion. 
Having a universal knowledge of tools is very useful. Sure, you can sharpen the tools that you prefer, but if you go into a confrontation with only one kind of tactic you will get owned

I would rate this as risky as saying a 'wing chunner will never get taken to the floor'

Let the flame wars begin.........


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## yak sao (May 10, 2010)

Hmmm, didn't say that....reread the post, I said pretty much the same thing you said in your post that was after mine. If chainpunching takes care of the situation then there is no need for chi sao


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## zepedawingchun (May 11, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> I would rate this as risky as saying a 'wing chunner will never get taken to the floor'


 
A Wing Chun practitioner will never be taken to the ground or floor . . . . . . . *only in their dreams ! ! !*


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## MaikuB (May 12, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> Which forum is that?



I think it would be this one

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=9


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## bully (May 12, 2010)

how did you guess???:ultracool


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## MaikuB (May 12, 2010)

I don't know of many active WC forums and there's a lot of bickering going on there. Besides, the profile of Bully over there also says they're in Jersey


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## bully (May 13, 2010)

Stalker!!!!!!

Lol, it actually says the real Jersey doesnt it??

They do bicker alot over there, it wore me down so I dont really bother with it now.


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## izeqb (Oct 10, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> All points well taken. The only issue I now have with this straight forward blitz as one said, why the chi sau and other techniques, why punch for punch (the object is to hit and get hit as less as possible if at all). Lastly, if I know this is ur main staple of attack ur in trouble.



I know this thread is kinda old, but anyway...

The point with the blitz-chainpunches is simply to provide the student with a counterattack he (or she) can use relatively soon after starting studying wing chun...

The fact of the matter is that you'll never use chi-sau as you train it... No one will come up to you with his arms in tan/fuk position before he'll attempt to kick your *ss...

As I see it, if you find youself in a sitation where you'll have to defend yourself against some brawler, fire at will with chainpunches and if his arms gets in the way, all those countless hours of chi-sau training will pay of as you in a splitsecond deflect his attack and keep on thrusting with your chainpunches...

And by the way, in the LT system, they do work on angles and sidestepping...

PS. No harm whatsoever, intended with the above post... :angel:


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## cwk (Oct 11, 2010)

When it comes to chain punches, I just fight fire with fire.
as they step in with their chain punches, I step in with my own chain attack.
my attack however is not a chain punch but chain palms. The palms come down the centre line but from above, dropping down with very heavy relaxed power, as fast or ideally faster than the opponents chain punch. if your structure is good and you stay committed ( no flinching or second guessing) it's very easy to walk straight through the chain punch, crossing his arms (trapping) along the way and ending with a nice palm strike to the chest or face.
It really doesn't take much practice to get the timing right and make it work pretty much every time.
On the negative side it makes you look like your fighting like a 7 year old girl 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  but seriously, this works and it's so simple.
 It's also the last thing the opponent is expecting as most people would just try getting out of the way or retreating from chain punches if they are inexperienced or deflecting and repositioning if they are more skilled.

It might not sound like a good technique in words but give it a try with your training partners and I think you'll be surprised how effective it can be.
Think fast,relaxed and very heavy.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 11, 2010)

cwk said:


> When it comes to chain punches, I just fight fire with fire.
> as they step in with their chain punches, I step in with my own chain attack.
> my attack however is not a chain punch but chain palms. The palms come down the centre line but from above, dropping down with very heavy relaxed power, as fast or ideally faster than the opponents chain punch. if your structure is good and you stay committed ( no flinching or second guessing) it's very easy to walk straight through the chain punch, crossing his arms (trapping) along the way and ending with a nice palm strike to the chest or face.
> It really doesn't take much practice to get the timing right and make it work pretty much every time.
> ...


 
Theres a clip of youtube of a similar strategy against a karate guy 
I think if you type in 'wing chun vs karate' it will come up

I dont really advocate using chain punches in real confrontations (maybe as a finishing move)


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## cwk (Oct 11, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> I dont really advocate using chain punches in real confrontations (maybe as a finishing move)



I don't use them much either. definitely not in the straight on, stepping in, straight blast. If I do use chain punches, I'll only do maybe 3 quick punches once I'm bridged from a sinking pao choi,just to give them something to think about and unbalance them while I switch to something else.
Not to say there's anything wrong with the straight blast, it's just not my cup of tea. I prefer to control my opponent by pushing and pulling them around,etc, keeping them off balance while striking.


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## mook jong man (Oct 11, 2010)

cwk said:


> When it comes to chain punches, I just fight fire with fire.
> as they step in with their chain punches, I step in with my own chain attack.
> my attack however is not a chain punch but chain palms. The palms come down the centre line but from above, dropping down with very heavy relaxed power, as fast or ideally faster than the opponents chain punch. if your structure is good and you stay committed ( no flinching or second guessing) it's very easy to walk straight through the chain punch, crossing his arms (trapping) along the way and ending with a nice palm strike to the chest or face.
> It really doesn't take much practice to get the timing right and make it work pretty much every time.
> ...


 
I do the chain palm strikes against chain punch as well sometimes , and it works exactly as you describe , the palm strikes just slide straight over the top and redirect his punches down.

And your right you do look like a bit of a little girl when you do it lol , or probably close to how I imagine Justin Bieber would fight.

Although these days I prefer to stick one arm out in front and use Tan/Bong it looks a little bit more elegant and I can just move forward with a minimum of exertion , jamming his punches up before they can gain momentum and then when he's all crammed up you can start trapping.

For people who aren't familar with the technique , you just bring your Wu Sau up to guard your face and your front hand deflects the chain punches.

For example if we have our right hand in front and he starts the chain punching with his left hand , we intercept inside his wrist and redirect his punch slightly up by raising our arm slightly and rotating into a Bong Sau.

When his next punch comes in from his right hand , we intercept on the outside of his wrist and rotate into a Tan Sau and slightly sink our elbow to redirect his punch down , then back into Bong Sau again to catch the next one , and so on and so on.
Then use your stance to start moving forward and jamming up his structure.

Chain punching is formidable , but a lot of people seem to start doing it when they are way out of range.
Besides being a waste of time and stupid , you aren't close enough to be using the built in trapping effect of your forearms as they retract in their elliptical path over the top of his arms.

A lot of people also seem to keep battering away even when the opponents arms are obstructing , if an arms in the way latch it and rip it down and punch with the other hand , and then keep alternating if necessary.

When I say latching I mean forming a Fook Sau and hooking your hand over the top of their obstructing forearm and sinking your arm at the elbow and pulling their arm down .

 Depending how tense they are it can not only drag their arm down so your other hand can hit through , it can also drag their body down and cause whiplash to the neck
Chain punching is good , but chain punching with latching is better.


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## geezer (Oct 11, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> ...Chain punching is formidable , but a lot of people seem to start doing it when they are way out of range.
> Besides being a waste of time and stupid , you aren't close enough to be using the built in trapping effect of your forearms as they retract in their elliptical path over the top of his arms.
> 
> A lot of people also seem to keep battering away even when the opponents arms are obstructing , if an arms in the way latch it and rip it down and punch with the other hand , and then keep alternating if necessary.
> ...



.....No additional comment. I just thought this was_ worth saying twice._ Oh and back to the OP, this should apply to WT/VT/WC _equally_. You know that I originally came from LT's "WT" system and this conforms to what LT taught me.


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## Nabakatsu (Oct 11, 2010)

Downwards chain palm striking to counter upward chain punches? I have a hard time imagining the person coming down to have an advantage, I'd think that would create some massive uprooting, I'll have to give it a shot though.
Not to mention if they use invasive, yet forward footwork you could fall over by striking in a downward motion, I'd say where you catch the arm would factor in to some extent too.. I'm curious if you guys could possibly break this down a little more for me. Either way thanks for giving me something to ponder.


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## mook jong man (Oct 11, 2010)

Nabakatsu said:


> Downwards chain palm striking to counter upward chain punches? I have a hard time imagining the person coming down to have an advantage, I'd think that would create some massive uprooting, I'll have to give it a shot though.
> Not to mention if they use invasive, yet forward footwork you could fall over by striking in a downward motion, I'd say where you catch the arm would factor in to some extent too.. I'm curious if you guys could possibly break this down a little more for me. Either way thanks for giving me something to ponder.


 
Nab , you are not striking downwards , well depending how tall you are I suppose .
If he is chain punching at your face , you are just sliding your palm strikes over the top of his forearms.

The downward pressure on his arms comes from the natural and relaxed drop  that your chain strike takes when it reaches the end of its journey.

It takes a slightly elliptical path in the retraction phase as your strike must drop an inch or so as it starts on its return path.
This is so that it can accomodate the next strike in the chain and make room for it.
 Other wise we would constantly be hitting our own hands or forced to strike all over the place instead of hitting the one spot.

I can't be quite sure as I haven't done it in a while , but there is probably also some redirection happening at the front end as well with the palm striking acting a little bit like a Fook Sau.


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## cwk (Oct 12, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Although these days I prefer to stick one arm out in front and use Tan/Bong it looks a little bit more elegant and I can just move forward with a minimum of exertion , jamming his punches up before they can gain momentum and then when he's all crammed up you can start trapping.
> 
> For people who aren't familar with the technique , you just bring your Wu Sau up to guard your face and your front hand deflects the chain punches.
> 
> ...



this also works with kam sao/ biu sao in place of bong/tan. Think of the "wagging fingers" of yip man biu gee form going from left to right. it's one of the first movements in our SLT after the salutation, check out the video I posted of myself on the lineage thread performing (badly) our SLT and you'll see what I mean.


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## mook jong man (Oct 12, 2010)

cwk said:


> this also works with kam sao/ biu sao in place of bong/tan. *Think of the "wagging fingers" of yip man biu gee form going from left to right. it's one of the first movements in our SLT after the salutation,* check out the video I posted of myself on the lineage thread performing (badly) our SLT and you'll see what I mean.


 
I forgot about that one , I haven't practiced that for a while.
But I tend to always go back to my old standby the Bong /Tan when under pressure it works pretty well for me.

Although it can get a bit hairy when the fast ones start coming in , you just have to keep going forward and crush his structure so that he can't generate any power and gain momentum.


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## cwk (Oct 12, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> I forgot about that one , I haven't practiced that for a while.
> But I tend to always go back to my old standby the Bong /Tan when under pressure it works pretty well for me.
> 
> Although it can get a bit hairy when the fast ones start coming in , you just have to keep going forward and crush his structure so that he can't generate any power and gain momentum.



definitely. relentless forward pressure is the key. Besides, if all else fails we can just start doing Beiber sao lol.


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## mook jong man (Oct 13, 2010)

cwk said:


> definitely. relentless forward pressure is the key. Besides, if all else fails we can just start doing Beiber sao lol.


 
Ha ha , Beiber sao  lol , God I can't stand that little wanker.

His hair looks like a  helmet , what are they going to do when his balls finally drop and he can't sing like that any more.

He was out here a few months ago and he appeared on one of the morning shows and apparently he was acting quite the little diva.


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