# Questions about Shotokan competitions: Then vs now



## chrissyp (Sep 12, 2018)

As a guy who's done mostly Muay Thai, and switched to Shotokan, iv'e been interested in competing in a few tournaments. 

While I don't care if it's full contact or not, I do miss full contact fighting, and I did see back in the 80's competition, it  looked pretty full contact, specially in England. Here's an example 



 .

 I would LOVE to fight a karate match with this much contact, by question is, in the united states, do they still do it like this?


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## dvcochran (Sep 12, 2018)

chrissyp said:


> As a guy who's done mostly Muay Thai, and switched to Shotokan, iv'e been interested in competing in a few tournaments.
> 
> While I don't care if it's full contact or not, I do miss full contact fighting, and I did see back in the 80's competition, it  looked pretty full contact, specially in England. Here's an example
> 
> ...


Man, that was a GREAT spinning hook kick at 2:15.


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## JR 137 (Sep 12, 2018)

chrissyp said:


> As a guy who's done mostly Muay Thai, and switched to Shotokan, iv'e been interested in competing in a few tournaments.
> 
> While I don't care if it's full contact or not, I do miss full contact fighting, and I did see back in the 80's competition, it  looked pretty full contact, specially in England. Here's an example
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting that video.  It was great.

I’ve seen recent/current videos like that.  I guess it’s like a full contact point fighting.  I can’t find them right now, but they’re out there.  I’m pretty sure that type of competition is still around, but it’s not too common.  I think mostly Europe and Japan is where the videos I’m thinking of were.


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## Danny T (Sep 12, 2018)

chrissyp said:


> As a guy who's done mostly Muay Thai, and switched to Shotokan, iv'e been interested in competing in a few tournaments.
> 
> While I don't care if it's full contact or not, I do miss full contact fighting, and I did see back in the 80's competition, it  looked pretty full contact, specially in England. Here's an example
> 
> ...


Check out Kyokushin tournaments. They still have strong full contact action.


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## JR 137 (Sep 12, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Check out Kyokushin tournaments. They still have strong full contact action.


Absolutely.  Only they’re continuous sparring rather that start-stop.  Unless there’s a knockdown.


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## Danny T (Sep 12, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Absolutely.  Only they’re continuous sparring rather that start-stop.  Unless there’s a knockdown.


Did the original poster specify such? I must have missed that.


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## JR 137 (Sep 13, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Did the original poster specify such? I must have missed that.


Good question.  I don’t think he did, now that I look back.


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## chrissyp (Sep 13, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Check out Kyokushin tournaments. They still have strong full contact action.


Kyokushin would be fun, but there is none even remotely close,  and i would like to do face punches too, which i cant in kyokushin.  Im still thinking ill do a point competition,  i just would love to find one that's full contact


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## Grenadier (Sep 14, 2018)

Today's USA-NKF / USA Karate tournaments are emphasizing more vigorous contact, which in turn, changed the rules to allow for body shields. 

They're not nearly as bulky as a hogu used in olympic-style Tae Kwon Do competitions.  

Strikes to the head must still be controlled.  Basically, face contact is restricted to adults, and even then, it's supposed to be a skin touch (no rocking of the opponent's head).


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## Buka (Sep 14, 2018)

chrissyp said:


> As a guy who's done mostly Muay Thai, and switched to Shotokan, iv'e been interested in competing in a few tournaments.
> 
> While I don't care if it's full contact or not, I do miss full contact fighting, and I did see back in the 80's competition, it  looked pretty full contact, specially in England. Here's an example
> 
> ...



I don't think so, but I haven't really been to one in a long while. But they started a complete pussification of Karate tournaments about twenty years ago. Apparently, they wanted to remove any semblance of what might be considered fighting. Didn't want to scare lil Johnny away. 

That was quickly followed by outlawing the chance of anyone getting their feelings hurt.






My spies tell me tournaments will be staring contests by 2020. But it's going to be _intense_ starring. This is Karate, after all.


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## pgsmith (Sep 14, 2018)

Buka said:


> My spies tell me tournaments will be staring contests by 2020. But it's going to be _intense_ starring. This is Karate, after all.


  And screaming ... lots of screaming. Like they do in the weapons kata.


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## Buka (Sep 14, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> And screaming ... lots of screaming. Like they do in the weapons kata.



I always kind of liked the screaming in weapons Kata. Very entertaining, keeps you awake as a judge, too. 

I'd never give any consideration to screaming while scoring - but if someone is completely emotionally absent while doing their form, my scoring would probably reflect that.


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## Buka (Sep 14, 2018)

Just a side note, back in the tournament days of the seventies, Kyokushin guys always hit you extremely hard. But Shotokan guys, man, they tried to punch holes in you. I really believe that was their main goal. At lest in east coast tournaments. I fought too many of them to remember them all.

I still wince thinking about them.


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## Danny T (Sep 14, 2018)

Buka said:


> Just a side note, back in the tournament days of the seventies, Kyokushin guys always hit you extremely hard. But Shotokan guys, man, they tried to punch holes in you. I really believe that was their main goal. At lest in east coast tournaments. I fought too many of them to remember them all.
> 
> I still wince thinking about them.


Yeah boy!! Ikken Hissatsu...it's a old concept but I think that's probably the number 1 takeaway I got from Shotokan training. Every strike was to finish the other guy. If I remember correctly it's means something along the lines of "one strike, one kill". More to our point of every strike thrown should be to finish the other guy.


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## Mitlov (Sep 14, 2018)

How much contact is involved in a light contact tournament varies a lot based on what the referees will tolerate.  High end stuff can still be pretty intense nowadays (especially when looking at highlight reels like in the original post):






I think the rough and tumble "light contact" was a lot more common in the 80s than today, but I'm not sure it's gone. 

I haven't done a lot of karate competition, but from what I've done, I've had light contact matches that I really do consider light contact, all the way up to a "light contact" match where my opponent dislocated my shoulder.


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## Mitlov (Sep 15, 2018)

ChrissyP: have got been following Karate Combat at all?  It's a new full - contact karate league, primarily Shotokan folks.


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## chrissyp (Sep 15, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> ChrissyP: have got been following Karate Combat at all?  It's a new full - contact karate league, primarily Shotokan folks.


I love it! Id love to do it! But i dont think i meet their qualifications.  Id love to see other orgs rise up and start doing this on lower scale


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## CB Jones (Sep 15, 2018)

Our observations, from our travels and son competing:

1)  USKA - United States Karate Alliance - We like this org the best so far and Jacob is a member.  Originally, it was the US Karate Association started by Robert Trias and was the first karate association and was first org to host martial arts tournaments.  Upon Trias passing away, it re-organized into the US Karate Alliance.

It is open to all styles and does not require membership to compete.

Point competition.  For adults, rules allow medium to heavy contact to the body, medium contact to head and light contact to face.  Basically, head contact is supposed to be controlled...if you draw blood or knock out your opponent you are DQ'd.  Also groin contact is allowed.  All strikes are scored 1 point as opposed to different strikes landed having different values.  Matches are 5 point matches.  Free Sparring with judges calling break when they see a point.....Head Gear, gloves, and Foot gear required.

Hosts tournaments in Louisiana, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California


2)  PKC - Professional Karate Commission - Started by Glenn Keeney  Looks to be modeled after the USKA with mostly the same rules and scoring.

Hosts Tournaments in Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, Kentucky, and Pennsylvania.  Open to all styles and non-members.


3)  USKK - United States Karate-Do Kai -  Started by Phillip Koeppel,  Also, modeled after USKA with the same rules and scoring.

Hosts Tournaments in Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and California.  Also Co-Sanctions many tournaments with USKA.


4)  WKF - World Karate Federation - Affiliated with the Olympics.

Styles recognized are  Gōjū-ryū, Shitō-ryū, Shotokan and Wadō-ryū.

Scoring is much different than the first 3 orgs- Punches are 1 point, kicks to body are 2 points, kicks to head are 3 points.  Punches and kicks have to be thrown and brought back a certain way to score and competitors have to disengage when they have scored for the judges to score them.  Amount of contact allowed is about the same as the first 3 orgs.

More restrictions in what kind of sparring gear is allowed and type of Gi worn than the first 3.  Open to non-members but they require techniques used to be done in the styles recognized above.


5)  NBL - National Blackbelt League - Sport Karate Org.  Hosts tournaments nationwide.  Rules seem to vary depending on area.  Son only competed in a few of these and we didn't care for them as much.  Lot of XMA influence.



From what we have seen...USKA, USKK, PKC, and WKF tends to be much more traditional in style.  NBL tends to be more XMA.


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## Mitlov (Sep 15, 2018)

chrissyp said:


> I love it! Id love to do it! But i dont think i meet their qualifications.  Id love to see other orgs rise up and start doing this on lower scale



Yeah, I'd like to see it catch on a bit more, so that there's regional and local competitions with this rule set.  I suspect perhaps 90% of karateka wouldn't want to actually compete under that rule set--the light-contact point-stop rules are a lot more accessible to a lot more people--but (a) I think it's good for the option to exist for the other 10%, and (b) even if folks don't actually _compete_ in it, I think having the option out there could have a potential beneficial impact on in-class drilling and training.


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## CB Jones (Sep 15, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Yeah, I'd like to see it catch on a bit more, so that there's regional and local competitions with this rule set.  I suspect perhaps 90% of karateka wouldn't want to actually compete under that rule set--the light-contact point-stop rules are a lot more accessible to a lot more people--but (a) I think it's good for the option to exist for the other 10%, and (b) even if folks don't actually _compete_ in it, I think having the option out there could have a potential beneficial impact on in-class drilling and training.



I really hope Karate Combat makes it.  We have a few friends involved in it but also really enjoy watching it.

They have an event coming up in two weeks in New York that should be fun to watch.


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## Mitlov (Sep 15, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I really hope Karate Combat makes it.  We have a few friends involved in it but also really enjoy watching it.
> 
> They have an event coming up in two weeks in New York that should be fun to watch.



Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.  It's clearly still in its infancy, but I thought Olympus was a much more polished event than Inception, and I'm looking forward to more refinement (and less of the referee calling for action because of a 0.1-second lull in striking).


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## chrissyp (Sep 15, 2018)

I've seriously,  before there was karate combat thought about starting something similar in the Cincinnati area, but much less limiting. The people who want to partner with me though dont see completely eye to eye...like one wants to do in a cage and others are against the use of a kimino


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## pgsmith (Sep 17, 2018)

Buka said:


> I'd never give any consideration to screaming while scoring - but if someone is completely emotionally absent while doing their form, my scoring would probably reflect that.



  I know what you meant, but for some reason I just had a picture in my head of you sitting at the judges table screaming while you wrote down their scores ... 

  It's funny also because in the traditional Japanese sword arts, emotion is considered detrimental to your focus and should be avoided completely.


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## _Simon_ (Sep 17, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> I know what you meant, but for some reason I just had a picture in my head of you sitting at the judges table screaming while you wrote down their scores ...



HAHAHAHA... thanks for the laugh.. [emoji1787]



pgsmith said:


> It's funny also because in the traditional Japanese sword arts, emotion is considered detrimental to your focus and should be avoided completely.



And yeah that's interesting, and I have wondered about that. I love when there's real emotion just exploding out of someone in a performance, to me it makes it more real and meaningful. But I understand the Zen-like focus and discipline of not letting them control and overwhelm you as such..


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## Buka (Sep 17, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> I know what you meant, but for some reason I just had a picture in my head of you sitting at the judges table screaming while you wrote down their scores ...
> 
> It's funny also because in the traditional Japanese sword arts, emotion is considered detrimental to your focus and should be avoided completely.



Yes, but there is a certain understated intensity to Japanese Sword Arts. You can almost feel it, almost reach up and snatch it out of the air. I enjoy Japanese sword arts over all others.

I never screamed while judging, but I did get up once and applaud. I'd do it again, too. It was fricken' awesome.


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## JR 137 (Sep 18, 2018)

Buka said:


> Yes, but there is a certain understated intensity to Japanese Sword Arts. You can almost feel it, almost reach up and snatch it out of the air. I enjoy Japanese sword arts over all others.
> 
> I never screamed while judging, but I did get up once and applaud. I'd do it again, too. It was fricken' awesome.


When I see the sword arts demoed (I’m assuming properly), I think they’re letting their passion and intensity show rather than their emotions, if that makes any sense.


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## Mitlov (Sep 18, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> HAHAHAHA... thanks for the laugh.. [emoji1787]
> 
> 
> 
> And yeah that's interesting, and I have wondered about that. I love when there's real emotion just exploding out of someone in a performance, to me it makes it more real and meaningful. But I understand the Zen-like focus and discipline of not letting them control and overwhelm you as such..


I always thought the long, theatrical screams of sport karate competition are a bit odd because the actual biomechanical effect you want from a kiai is best served with a short sharp bark.


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## pgsmith (Sep 18, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> I always thought the long, theatrical screams of sport karate competition are a bit odd because the actual biomechanical effect you want from a kiai is best served with a short sharp bark.


  Ha! That made me think of a certain well respected and highly ranked Japanese sword instructor (who shall remain nameless). He has a sharp kiai that sounds exactly like the poodle that our next door neighbor had. The first time I heard him kiai I couldn't help laughing, because they sounded just the same. He had a good laugh about it later when I got the translator to explain it to him.


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## JR 137 (Sep 18, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> I always thought the long, theatrical screams of sport karate competition are a bit odd because the actual biomechanical effect you want from a kiai is best served with a short sharp bark.


You’re completely wrong. THIS is how it’s done...


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## GreatUniter (Sep 18, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> You’re completely wrong. THIS is how it’s done...




I cannot find a video on youtube right now from our country's "best karate club" for you to see what is screaming. This video is nothing compared to their competitors.


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## JR 137 (Sep 18, 2018)

GreatUniter said:


> I cannot find a video on youtube right now from our country's "best karate club" for you to see what is screaming. This video is nothing compared to their competitors.


PLEASE FIND IT!!!  I BEG OF YOU!!!

That type of ridiculousness never gets old.


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## _Simon_ (Sep 18, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> I always thought the long, theatrical screams of sport karate competition are a bit odd because the actual biomechanical effect you want from a kiai is best served with a short sharp bark.


YES am not a fan of the really long drawn out ones. The technique is DONE man let it go!





JR 137 said:


> You’re completely wrong. THIS is how it’s done...


... I am so very, very pleased this has made a comeback [emoji1787][emoji1787]


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## pgsmith (Sep 19, 2018)

As a reminder though, oddball kiai is not limited to modern karate schools. Jigen ryu is a well known and respected Japanese sword art that has been taught the same way since the late 1500's. They are well known for their loud and drawn out kiai ...


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## Buka (Sep 19, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> You’re completely wrong. THIS is how it’s done...



Part of me is saying "I think I'd like to know this girl" The other part of me - yells Run Away, Run Away like Monte Python and the Holy Grail.


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