# Well another one may have just bit the dust



## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2009)

Just when I thought things were looknig up a bit for CMA and Taijiquan

Im not ranting and this is obviously just my opinion but I am watching a group of people that opened up a school in my area and started out great and they were looking to teach real taiji in a specific family style and they even associated themselves with a well respected teacher of that style and now I go to their website and see they appear to be going the same exact route as my first sifu and they, like me, trained with my first sifu they just trained with him longer (I started before them and was more aware of the changes so I left much earlier than they did) and they left because they did not like what he was doing and now they look like they are going the same route, right down to teaching the introductory form my first sifu made up, that was complete crap, just to bilk more money off of his students. 

It is kind of sad to me to see actually and I am still watching and hoping to see that I am in fact wrong.


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## East Winds (Jun 5, 2009)

Ah!! Xue Sheng, I fear no matter how long you watch them, you will be disappointed!! I had a similar experience. It is really horrendous, but is so common particularly in the ICMA's. You are fortunate to be out of it (like myself) and studying with a genuine Sifu. I really don't know what the answer is. My own teachers attitude is "*forget it, who cares? You know what YOU are doing is OK"*. But I find that attitude difficult (even although I know it is right!!!!!). Even if you tell them, they will not accept that there is anything wrong with what they are doing, because they do not know any better. One day they might suddenly comprehend that "there must be more to it than this??????", but until that realisation, they will continue on their own way. I realise this is no solution to your original post, but is the best I can offer.:shrug:

Very best wishes


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## clfsean (Jun 5, 2009)

Xue... I feel your pain... I do, but it's like an old teacher of mine said to me one day when I was grousing about the ill manners of a school that opened across the road from us (literally) & didn't come intro themselves or anything ... 

"I get the people I always get, they'll get who they get. Doesn't matter where, they get theirs, I get mine. It's just how it is."


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2009)

well, maybe in a way the true Chinese martial arts are sort of going back underground.  In my opinion, it's as it should be.

I'm sort of getting a kick out of the fact the we train in my Sigung's back yard where no one can see us, in the dark, from 9:30 to almost midnight.

'course it makes it a bit rough to get up for work the next morning...


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## ebozzz (Jun 5, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> well, maybe in a way the true Chinese martial arts are sort of going back underground.  In my opinion, it's as it should be.
> 
> I'm sort of getting a kick out of the fact the we train in my Sigung's back yard where no one can see us, in the dark, from 9:30 to almost midnight.
> 
> 'course it makes it a bit rough to get up for work the next morning...



Well, cannot speak from the same level of experience as most of you are able to but I can say that my current search for a traditional Chinese martial arts home has *really* been an eye opener. It's amazing how many schools advertise that they offer authentic CMA but upon closer observation, it is actually something altogether different. Commercialism in many schools also seems to take precedence over teaching the arts as they were intended to be taught. It's sad.....


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 5, 2009)

Ah Xue I have so many bad teachers around me I don't know what to do!!

I have a friend who is studying Qigong and working on getting a certification from that person and they have been only practicing for less than a year!! I would think my friend would consult me(they don't know that I know Qigong they never asked)

I have all sorts of masters with funny titles and funny stories visiting them like the time I visited a Karate school(I am laughing as I type this) and the one Black belt student tried to look cool and do a jump kick and broke his ankle!!

The witty comments of one student in a Qigong class who said "I feel worse" in which the teacher replied "thats normal"

The Taoist Tai chi society "Imagine you are blocking a punch but remember we are not practicing applications"

The ATA"Is Taijutsu a mixture of Thai boxing and jujutsu"
I am sure I got more.


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## wushuguy (Jun 5, 2009)

I suppose I got fairly lucky. one or two of the people I studied with were "real" for example my first sifu taught wing chun only to a few people, closed. By invite only in most cases. Sometimes people heard of him go challenge him, later, that person becomes his student. After, I met a few instructors, while ok, feel that they didn't fully understand the material they were teaching, kind like just teaching the motions, so that had to stop. The last one, the class was being taught by senior students, however when ask them what a technique was used for, they didn't know, even jeered that the sifu probably doesn't know... that was the last straw for me in that class. (btw, i analyzed that movement i had asked them about, found it is really a devistating technique and principle, that they don't know it, is good, because students like that don't deserve to gain such good knowledge.)

But as for me, because I had used to teach a mc dojo, and now I teach only privately, and what I'm teaching is bits and pieces of what I learned over the years... I never "mastered" any style... probably there will be many people that say I'm teaching crap, or that I'm not qualified, etc. 

I suppose that's ok, because I don't claim to teach a traditional chinese martial art. New things are always frowned upon, but those who are learning from me at least learn something, and if they ever get better than I can teach, then I'll point them to other instructors i know are top notch (and their fees are also higher).

And if someone really isn't teaching a "traditional art" they shouldn't claim to. I also don't associate myself with my sifus, I respect them and are greatful to their teaching me, but I wouldn't disrespect them because I can't represent their skill or quality of teaching.

Anyway I'm not sure where I'm going with this... my mind is a bit fuzzy, I've had a busy day.


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## ebozzz (Jun 5, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> The Taoist Tai chi society Imagine you are blocking a punch but remember we are not practicing applications


Now that one is funny! I only got as far as a phone conversation with their school in Denver. The few minutes that I spent on that conversation was enough to let me know that I did't want to train there.......


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2009)

wushuguy said:


> I suppose I got fairly lucky. one or two of the people I studied with were "real" for example my first sifu taught wing chun only to a few people, closed. By invite only in most cases. Sometimes people heard of him go challenge him, later, that person becomes his student. After, I met a few instructors, while ok, feel that they didn't fully understand the material they were teaching, kind like just teaching the motions, so that had to stop. The last one, the class was being taught by senior students, however when ask them what a technique was used for, they didn't know, even jeered that the sifu probably doesn't know... that was the last straw for me in that class. (btw, i analyzed that movement i had asked them about, found it is really a devistating technique and principle, that they don't know it, is good, because students like that don't deserve to gain such good knowledge.)
> 
> But as for me, because I had used to teach a mc dojo, and now I teach only privately, and what I'm teaching is bits and pieces of what I learned over the years... I never "mastered" any style... probably there will be many people that say I'm teaching crap, or that I'm not qualified, etc.
> 
> ...


 
Nothing wrong with new forms if you have the qualifications to back it up. The Yang family have a few, in my lineage there are 2 new forms from the Tung family, Chen Zhenglei came up with the 18 form and Chen Xiaowang came up with the 19 and the 36 and they are all great forms.

My first sifu came up with an introductory 1 and 2 that were, for lack of a better word, crap. Before that he never claimed any title and in China he is considered a gym teacher not a martial arts master. He now claims to be a grand master and claims to an unbelievable number of styles, most of which he got from video after he got to the USA.

The group I am talking about left him due to disagreements over what he was doing and now they are teaching his introductory form. 

However after sleeping on this I am no longer all that upset about it now. They have decided to make it a business and that is their prerogative. What I find funny (believe it or not) is now they will make more money teaching bad taiji than my yang sifu who was a student of Tung Ying Chieh and has been doing taiji for over 50 years.

A related side story. One of my sifu's newer students also goes to this other school and he was standing in the back of the class, before class, and doing some short staff form. My sifu asked him what it is to which he was told "Yang style short staff form". My sifu looked at me and smiled and said "I have never heard of that" chuckled and walked away. It is a form my first sifu learned via video, taught to the people of the other group and they are now teaching it. 




ebozzz said:


> Now that one is funny! I only got as far as a phone conversation with their school in Denver. The few minutes that I spent on that conversation was enough to let me know that I didn&#8217;t want to train there.......


 
I can&#8217;t stress strongly enough to stay away from the Taoist Tai Chi Society if you want real taiji


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## Rabu (Jun 6, 2009)

As above, so below.

Patterns repeat, thats why they are patterns.  Like the story of the frog and the scorpion, things rarely change from their nature.

An open commercial school will gain the artifacts of a commercial venture.  The sadness I hear in your post reflects my own dissapointment in some of the schools and styles from my previous American fusion arts and Japanese arts practice.  

They (commercial environments) could certainly get you excited about practicing and create an environment you wanted to go back to.

My hope would be that it would act like a gateway drug for people seeking a more thorough experience.

Here's hoping things improve for your former classmates, and that they get some of what they need.


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## fyn5000 (Jun 6, 2009)

Xue,

Don't let it get you down.  The best way to deal with these teachers and schools is to explain what traditional CMA and Taijiquan are when you talk with others.  Point them in the direction where they can get information where they can be better informed about what is traditional CMA and Taijiquan and what isn't. 

I've had a similar experience myself.  My first teacher was a student of Master William C.C. Chen, but he really didn't follow Chen's teaching all that closely.  He had learned the Zheng ManQing form from Chen back in the late 1960's, before Chen developed his own form.  My teacher liked moves in the Zheng ManQing form that Chen left out of his form, so my teacher made a hybrid form.  It wasn't too bad (not knowing a whole lot about Taijiquan when I started) , but it had several awkward transitions between movements that disrupted the flow of the form.  

He eventually came up with this "great discovery" (his words) that the Masters had missed for thousands of years.  He incorporated a bending back movement into his form.  It consisted of  bringing the arms up along your sides and then arching backwards.  He did the move from the right and left bow stance and also from a parallel stance.  He started the form with these bending back movements and put them in after every push movement.  These movements became 25% of the entire form.  The flow  of the form was completely disrupted.  Many of his student's told him they didn't like it. 

By then I had attended a workshop conducted by Master Alex Dong and started training with Dong Family teachers here in Olympia.  I'm happy I switched.  When I meet someone who wants to start practicing Taijiquan I explain what style I do, talk about some other styles that are taught in the Olympia area, and point out some of the fundamentals of practice as explained by Dong Ying Jie and Yang Chen Fu.  

fyn


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## geezer (Jun 6, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Nothing wrong with new forms if you have the qualifications to back it up...
> 
> My first sifu came up with an introductory 1 and 2 that were, for lack of a better word, crap.



When I look around at other martial arts being taught, I see mostly garbage. I briefly trained in a supposedly "Shaolin" CMA in the mid 70's under a very honest and sincere Shifu. But I later came to learn that although _he_ was sincere, the system he learned was phony. I see that a lot... So many popular styles that are, at best, "inauthentic". _So how do we separate the crap from the "cream"._..if you will? 

Later, I became a "disciple" of a well known Chinese Sifu of a popular southern system. I studied with him for over a decade, but finally left this Sifu for various reasons. One was that he became very commercial.  His dream was to establish himself as the ultimate authority in his style, have a worldwide chain of schools, and become very rich. And, he began charging unreal rates for his instruction. Another reason was that he was often not a very nice human being. And judging from recent news clips, _that_ hasn't changed.

On the other hand, this man was determined that his higher ranked students should be very, very good. And, although he did modify some of the system's forms, he did so openly, and conservatively. And only after many years of research, consideration, and "testing out" the changes. He would only make a change if he felt completely sure that it was "restoring" the system to its core principles. And, as he got greedier, he taught less and less, maintaining that students should not seek out more forms and flash, but put more into the basics. He insisted that it was far more important to gain true depth than to learn a lot of crap. And so, greedy as he was, he has never earned as much money as he wanted, because he would sell out anything..._ except his kung-fu._ People are complicated.

In spite of all that, I have returned to study in this Sifu's branch or "lineage", but not in his organization. I train with others who, like me were dissatisfied with his outlook and methods. Still, we've all returned to the system he promoted since we feel that his skill and understanding was first rate... but his "business model" was corrupt as hell. Crap and cream.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2009)

fyn5000 said:


> Xue,
> 
> Don't let it get you down. The best way to deal with these teachers and schools is to explain what traditional CMA and Taijiquan are when you talk with others. Point them in the direction where they can get information where they can be better informed about what is traditional CMA and Taijiquan and what isn't.
> 
> ...


 
I have went to a William CC Chen Push Hands seminar a couple of years ago and as I have said my sifu's sifu was Tung Ying Cheih (Dong Ying Jie) Tung Ying Chieh is my Shigung and I too am rather happy in this lineage.



geezer said:


> When I look around at other martial arts being taught, I see mostly garbage. I briefly trained in a supposedly "Shaolin" CMA in the mid 70's under a very honest and sincere Shifu. But I later came to learn that although _he_ was sincere, the system he learned was phony. I see that a lot... So many popular styles that are, at best, "inauthentic". _So how do we separate the crap from the "cream"._..if you will?
> 
> Later, I became a "disciple" of a well known Chinese Sifu of a popular southern system. I studied with him for over a decade, but finally left this Sifu for various reasons. One was that he became very commercial. His dream was to establish himself as the ultimate authority in his style, have a worldwide chain of schools, and become very rich. And, he began charging unreal rates for his instruction. Another reason was that he was often not a very nice human being. And judging from recent news clips, _that_ hasn't changed.
> 
> ...


 
My first sifu has no such ideas beyond greed. This too is rather sad to me because I know what he and his school was like 18 years ago.

This group I am talking about started out great and maybe they will turn around in time... or not. I will have to tell you a short push hands story about them sometime


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## ebozzz (Jun 6, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> I cant stress strongly enough to stay away from the Taoist Tai Chi Society if you want real taiji



Amazingly, I was able to reach that conclusion without any assistance!  I understand your concern, I've got it and I'm gone!


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 6, 2009)

It is sad when people with reputable backgrounds seem to go the way you say your instructor and now these other instructors go


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2009)

ebozzz said:


> Amazingly, I was able to reach that conclusion without any assistance!  I understand your concern, I've got it and I'm gone!


 
I figured that, it is that I just can't pass up an opportunity to say don't train with that group.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2009)

tshadowchaser said:


> It is sad when people with reputable backgrounds seem to go the way you say your instructor and now these other instructors go


 
My first sifu taught mostly contemporary Wuhu and Sanshou and I use to have a copy of all he learned in China. Now he claims mastery of all sorts of CMA styles and it is just sad to see what he is now and know what he was. But then I guess from his perspective he was not so rich then and now he is wealthy. All I can say is one of the Chen family even called him a dirty business man and told him to stop teaching Chen.... of course he didn't this is the USA not China. I have also posted before that my current Yang sifu will not even acknowledge him if they are in the same room and my Sanda sifu has no problem calling him a flower fist to his face. 

To quote the Chen person he must be a grandmaster he knows over 100 styles 

This other group had potential and maybe I am missing something here. I see one of the owners form time to time and maybe next time I will ask more questions. Could also just be, as my wife tells me, I'm just to serious.


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## wushuguy (Jun 7, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> My first sifu taught mostly contemporary Wuhu and Sanshou and I use to have a copy of all he learned in China. Now he claims mastery of all sorts of CMA styles and it is just sad to see what he is now and know what he was. But then I guess from his perspective he was not so rich then and now he is wealthy. ... To quote the Chen person he must be a grandmaster he knows over 100 styles  ...This other group had potential and maybe I am missing something here. I see one of the owners form time to time and maybe next time I will ask more questions. Could also just be, as my wife tells me, I'm just to serious.



Yeah, sometimes people go that route, throwing away credibility all for money. It's a good reminder for those of us who teach or plan to teach, we should be up front with how much we know, don't say one knows this or that if only "learned" a trick or two from someone who studies that style, and mostly we should teach what we find worked for us and what can work for our students. 

Hope the other group can learn to keep it real, just state the facts on what they know and teach, rather than trying to show off themselves with some smoke and mirrors.

The more we as a community are aware of those bad experiences, we can have distinguishment for our future dealings, and also share some advice with people just starting into martial arts.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 7, 2009)

wushuguy said:


> Yeah, sometimes people go that route, throwing away credibility all for money. It's a good reminder for those of us who teach or plan to teach, we should be up front with how much we know, don't say one knows this or that if only "learned" a trick or two from someone who studies that style, and mostly we should teach what we find worked for us and what can work for our students.
> 
> Hope the other group can learn to keep it real, just state the facts on what they know and teach, rather than trying to show off themselves with some smoke and mirrors.
> 
> The more we as a community are aware of those bad experiences, we can have distinguishment for our future dealings, and also share some advice with people just starting into martial arts.


 
I've said this before on MT as well but what is even more amazing to me is that about half way between the school this thread is about and my first sifu's school there is the most amazing and rather low cost (cheaper that both of the other schools) Wing Chun School (Inside student of Ip Ching) and this Wing Chun school is lucky if there are more than 6 students in a class at a time, usually less than that in a class. My first sifu has 100s of students and the school of this post has considerably more than the Wing Chun school. This to me is also a rather sad thing and a heck of a statement about those that want to train CMA today.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 8, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> I've said this before on MT as well but what is even more amazing to me is that about half way between the school this thread is about and my first sifu's school there is the most amazing and rather low cost (cheaper that both of the other schools) Wing Chun School (Inside student of Ip Ching) and this Wing Chun school is lucky if there are more than 6 students in a class at a time, usually less than that in a class. My first sifu has 100s of students and the school of this post has considerably more than the Wing Chun school. This to me is also a rather sad thing and a heck of a statement about those that want to train CMA today.



Xue you see this in quite a few martial sciences now a day's.  Top tier people with small classes and lower level practitioner's with giant schools. :erg:


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## terryl965 (Jun 8, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Xue you see this in quite a few martial sciences now a day's. Top tier people with small classes and lower level practitioner's with giant schools. :erg:


 
Yes you do especially around the metroplex.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 8, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Xue you see this in quite a few martial sciences now a day's. Top tier people with small classes and lower level practitioner's with giant schools. :erg:


 
Yeah I know it is just very confusing and rather sad to me. My Yang Sifu has pretty much retired because he is tried of trying to teach people that only want to learn the long form sot they can go off and claim to be masters and teach. But then my Sifu never really wanted a big school he only wanted to teach taiji. The Wing Chun Sifu (what little I know of Wing Chun I learned from him) has resigned himself to the fact he will never have a big school. This is great for his students but if it were not for his other business that supports his school he would have closed a long time ago.


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## Live True (Jun 9, 2009)

with all due respect, and this may have been answered elsewhere...how do you, as a beginner, KNOW if you are in a good school?  What do you look for?  so many of you say it took you aprox a decade to know it wasn't for you, and it's unclear if hte school changed or you did. ?????


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 9, 2009)

Live True said:


> with all due respect, and this may have been answered elsewhere...how do you, as a beginner, KNOW if you are in a good school? What do you look for? so many of you say it took you aprox a decade to know it wasn't for you, and it's unclear if hte school changed or you did. ?????



I wrote out a long response and at the end I realized the last part was all I needed so

I guess experience in the style and research of that style is the best way to know.

In the case of the school of this post I do believe they changed, they started out strong but appear to be faltering at this point. In the case of my first sifu, we both changed.


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## dancingalone (Jun 10, 2009)

ebozzz said:


> Now that one is funny! I only got as far as a phone conversation with their school in Denver. The few minutes that I spent on that conversation was enough to let me know that I did't want to train there.......



I know a guy who teaches for them with less than 3 years experience.


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## mograph (Jun 10, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I know a guy who teaches for them with less than 3 years experience.


Yeah, they recruit beginner instructors as soon as they finish the 4-month beginner class. Three years is a long time.

It's a mistake to think they teach taijiquan. Their system is a mild calisthenic with some qigong-based exercises incorporated into a loose interpretation of a Yang long form. _With a good teacher who has the flexibility to teach properly_, it has a place in the wellness pantheon because students can get healthier, but it's not taijiquan. Too bad it's called "tai chi".

Maybe something good was going on while Moy was alive in the early years, but since then, it's pffft. In other words: nothing to see there, folks. Move along ...


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 10, 2009)

There use to be a guy on MT that was one of thier teachers he was a pretty nice guy and for the most part knew what he was talking about in things taiji for health but a bit too much into the dogma of the organization. However he was looking outside of thier organization at other CMA schools and talking outside of thier organization and that is just not suppose to be done buy a teacher


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## ebozzz (Jun 10, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I know a guy who teaches for them with less than 3 years experience.



I don't doubt it at all! I has been several years since I spoke with them on the phone so I can't really remember the gist of the conversation. I just know as soon as they told me that they had no knowledge of the martial aspects that it was not for me. Don't get me wrong. My health is extremely important to me. But, in my opinion when something is taught in an incomplete manner, it loses some of it's value. Since I am originally from the deep south, let me use this analogy. Teaching Taiji without teaching the martial aspects is like trying to cook a Cajun or Creole meal with out cayenne pepper. The martial side is a fundamental ingredient to Taji.


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## prairiemantis (Jun 11, 2009)

tshadowchaser said:


> It is sad when people with reputable backgrounds seem to go the way you say your instructor and now these other instructors go




all to common for someone who teaches traditional arts what ever it may be, to add or change things so they can get that extra few months tuition out of people.  even worse when someone claims to be a traditional ma teacher, takes the money and then learns from a video 20 min before class starts.( an hour long video can take what six months to teach, frame by frame)_  even those who are truly good can fall prey to ego, when their martial arts become there retirement fund. thus doing things less than honorable. the one that says  its all so secret its all so mysterious,  blah blah blah.  profit by deceit is the reason people laugh at traditional martial arts and is the reason for the eventual failure of the school.  . yay for mma......*sarcasm*

its a perpetual wheel  of self destruction.  i was once told that traditional ma have been around for thousands of years, and it did not wait for me (figuratively) to change or correct it.  now that person is a master of all the arts and the traditional school is now a jack of all trades school, its just sad.  
you can blame the economy if you want, but know this, if you are one of those self proclaimed masters, who prey on the commercial integrity of the neighborhood... well you are being laughed at, talked about, and then forgotten.


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