# Kwans refused to be TKD



## terryl965 (Dec 23, 2010)

What was some of the earlier Kwans that did not want TKD and rebelled over it? I know of some that resisted but eventually joined but I really do not know who just plain refused to be part of the movement in Korea, so if you can provide this info thank you.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 23, 2010)

I think the easiest example would be GM Hwang Kee of the Moo Duk Kwan. Although, from my own reading, it looks like he left as much because he was not selected to lead the unification as anything else. The Soo Bak Do web site still insists to this day that people who train in Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan are not "real" Moo Duk Kwan.


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## SahBumNimRush (Dec 23, 2010)

As Dirty Dog stated, HWANG Kee's Moo Duk Kwan was the Kwan that refused the merger.  However, a large portion of the Moo Duk Kwan supported the unification, and thus created the first of many splinters of the Moo Duk Kwan: Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo vs. Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do.  Later HWANG Kee renamed his art Moo Duk Kwan Soo Bahk Do.


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## puunui (Dec 23, 2010)

SahBumNimRush said:


> As Dirty Dog stated, HWANG Kee's Moo Duk Kwan was the Kwan that refused the merger.  However, a large portion of the Moo Duk Kwan supported the unification, and thus created the first of many splinters of the Moo Duk Kwan: Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo vs. Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do.  Later HWANG Kee renamed his art Moo Duk Kwan Soo Bahk Do.



Actually I believe GM HWANG Kee started calling his art Soobahkdo in 1960 or so. 

Here is a section from the Modern History that describes the Soobahkdo Hwe:

*

Chapter 2, Section 5: HWANG Kee and the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association

As the 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association was collapsing in April 1960, HWANG Kee took advantage of the
disruption and chaos during this period. When the huge demonstrations against ROK President RHEE Syng
Man's corruption broke out, HWANG Kee used a powerful man in politics to finish registering the Korea Soo
Bahk Do Association with the Korea Amateur Sports Association at the Ministry of Education.
The members of the 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association were upset and petitioned the Ministry of Education to protest what they considered a wrong doing. At the time, every representative from each Kwan said HWANG Kee's unilateral behavior was a misdeed.
The following is part of the 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association petition against the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association:

"We, the Korea Taekwondo Association, cooperate with the national rebuilding committee's policies, but we must petition the registration of the gangster's (gangpae) hotbed, the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association (Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan). Soo Bahk Do's official discipline is to train both body and spirit, but in reality, it is just an unsportsmanlike school.

The evidence is as follows:

1. In Kwang Ju, Soo Bahk Do trainees beat up students of Kwang Ju High School and gave rise to public criticism, so much so the Ministry of Education stopped Tang Soo Do training;

2. In Taejon, Soo Bahk Do trainees fought with another gangster group in the street;

3. The high ranking leaders of a Soo Bahk Do school beat up the workers of the Taejon Theater when they were not given free tickets;

4. One military soldier was stabbed and injured by a Soo Bahk Do trainee and now the trainee is in jail.
. . .
This kind of behavior is happening all over the country. There are numerous other incidents of misconduct we cannot mention. Furthermore, Dan certificates were given recklessly, with the Soo Bahk Do Association charging a large amount of money for the certificates to fulfill their desire and greed, which in effect, amounted to the selling of rank. Using these bought certificates, Soo Bahk Do trainees quietly threatened people and
bilked restaurants by refusing to pay their checks. . . . Soo Bahk Do caused a big social disruption and was once banned by the Ministry of Education. So how can the Soo Bahk Do Association be officially registered as a legal (sa dan bup in) Association? As a matter of course, the registration must be stopped and the Association must be eliminated.

Korea Taekwondo Association
June 1960"

After the 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association petitioned the Ministry of Education and the Korea Amateur Sports Association, it requested sanctions against the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association, but the Ministry of Education said it could not stop the freedom of the Association. However, the Ministry of Education requested the registration of a new Association because it couldn't recognize two different Associations in one sport. In the
meantime, General PARK Chung Hee carried out a coup de tat on March 16, 1961.


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## puunui (Dec 23, 2010)

Modern History said:


> HWANG Kee used a powerful man in politics to finish registering the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association with the Korea Amateur Sports Association at the Ministry of Education.




One question though, if GM HWANG Kee was so against "sport", then why would he register his organization with the Korea Amateur Sports Association?


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## puunui (Dec 23, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> What was some of the earlier Kwans that did not want TKD and rebelled over it? I know of some that resisted but eventually joined but I really do not know who just plain refused to be part of the movement in Korea, so if you can provide this info thank you.




Print out and read the Modern History translation. It will give you all of that information and more.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 26, 2010)

The MooDuk kwan did sign on to the unification when it was finalized in 1978. However it was not under their founder, GM Hwang Kee, as already stated. Dr. Yoon worked with GM Hwang & remained true to his karate. But GM Lee Chong Woo took over the Jidokwan from him & they also signed on in 1978.
So Dr Yoon, Gen Choi & GM Hwang, 3 out of the 7 Koreans that brought the martial arts to Korea did not sign on. Nor did the 3 other original kwan founders, Lee, Yoon & Chun, as tey left Korea or died in 1950. GM Ro Byung Jik's SongMookwan did sign on. I am just not sure if he was the signer. I would have to check the Modern Hostory by Kang & Lee again.
But the 9 major kwans all signed on, in some form or another


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## puunui (Dec 26, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> The MooDuk kwan did sign on to the unification when it was finalized in 1978. However it was not under their founder, GM Hwang Kee, as already stated. Dr. Yoon worked with GM Hwang & remained true to his karate. But GM Lee Chong Woo took over the Jidokwan from him & they also signed on in 1978.
> So Dr Yoon, Gen Choi & GM Hwang, 3 out of the 7 Koreans that brought the martial arts to Korea did not sign on. Nor did the 3 other original kwan founders, Lee, Yoon & Chun, as tey left Korea or died in 1950. GM Ro Byung Jik's SongMookwan did sign on. I am just not sure if he was the signer. I would have to check the Modern Hostory by Kang & Lee again.
> But the 9 major kwans all signed on, in some form or another




I think you are confusing the Kwan Unification Resolution signed by the kwan jang in March 1965, and the later kwan unification document signed by the kwan jang in 1978. GM HWANG Kee signed on behalf of the Moo Duk Kwan in March 1965, and then immediately said it was invalid because of General Choi. GM HONG Chong Soo signed the 1978 agreement on behalf of the Moo Duk Kwan. GM RO Byung Jick signed on behalf of the Song Moo Kwan in 1965, and GM KANG Won Sik signed on behalf of the Song Moo Kwan in 1978. GM YOON Kwe Byung signed on behalf of the Jidokwan in 1965, and GM LEE Chong Woo signed on behalf of the Jidokwan in 1978.


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## miguksaram (Dec 27, 2010)

Though I do not have any written proof, I was told my TKD instructor who is Jidokwan that Jidokwan was in and out of the unification process.  At first they were for it, but then withdrew and then finally decided to go forth with it.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 28, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Though I do not have any written proof, I was told my TKD instructor who is Jidokwan that Jidokwan was in and out of the unification process.  At first they were for it, but then withdrew and then finally decided to go forth with it.


I think that this may be a fair assessment. maybe Puunui can weigh in on this. I would say that Dr Yoon took over once the dust settled in the Jidokwan, along with or assisted by GM Lee Chong Woo, a senior student, as the Kwan founder disappeared during the Korean Civil War. They also renamed it the Jidokwan when they re-opened it after the war.
Dr Yoon was respectful of his karate roots & was actually the highest ranked Korean, with some reporting him to be as high as 7th Dan. He colloborated with GM Hwang Kee. GM Lee was a primary mover in the TKD (Olympic) movement. He was the one who eventually became the Jidokwan leader & had them join the Taekwondo movement. Dr Yoon remained karate


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 28, 2010)

Quote: Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_The MooDuk kwan did sign on to the  unification when it was finalized in 1978. However it was not under  their founder, GM Hwang Kee, as already stated. Dr. Yoon worked with GM  Hwang & remained true to his karate. But GM Lee Chong Woo took over  the Jidokwan from him & they also signed on in 1978.
So Dr Yoon, Gen Choi & GM Hwang, 3 out of the 7 Koreans that brought  the martial arts to Korea did not sign on. Nor did the 3 other original  kwan founders, Lee, Yoon & Chun, as tey left Korea or died in 1950.  GM Ro Byung Jik's SongMookwan did sign on. I am just not sure if he was  the signer. I would have to check the Modern History by Kang & Lee  again.
But the 9 major kwans all signed on, in some form or another_



puunui said:


> I think you are confusing the Kwan Unification Resolution signed by the kwan jang in March 1965, and the later kwan unification document signed by the kwan jang in 1978.


No I realize the difference, but was just combining them for ease of understanding. My point was that the MDK & JDK all eventually signed on. While GM Hwang tried to work with TKD, he quickly dropped out & did so more than once. He did the same thing in 1959 & I believe even before that, when the original Korean (karate) kwans were trying to work together under the Kong Soo Doo name, which was a Korean term for karate.



puunui said:


> GM HWANG Kee signed on behalf of the Moo Duk Kwan in March 1965, and then immediately said it was invalid because of General Choi. GM HONG Chong Soo signed the 1978 agreement on behalf of the Moo Duk Kwan.


Yes I understand that & this change of heart by GM Hwang was what contributed to the split in the MDK, so yes there was a different signer for the MDK in 1978.



puunui said:


> GM RO Byung Jick signed on behalf of the Song Moo Kwan in 1965, and GM KANG Won Sik signed on behalf of the Song Moo Kwan in 1978.


Thanks for this. Can you offer any insight to why GM Ro, the SMK founder didn't sign on in 1978?



puunui said:


> GM YOON Kwe Byung signed on behalf of the Jidokwan in 1965, and GM LEE Chong Woo signed on behalf of the Jidokwan in 1978.


Yes Dr Yoon stayed true to his karate roots. The Modern History & or Steve Capener, PhD may have added that the 1st generation leaders did not like the focus of the 2nd generation leaders.


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## msmitht (Dec 28, 2010)

puunui said:


> Actually I believe GM HWANG Kee started calling his art Soobahkdo in 1960 or so.
> 
> Here is a section from the Modern History that describes the Soobahkdo Hwe:
> 
> ...


I was a student of a Moon Ku Baek for a time. He and his brothers learned Tang Soo Do from a young Hwang Kee. They practiced japanese kata through Bassai/Kanku Dai. Lots of Sparrinig and 1 steps. There were bad guys (gangsters) in the classes. There were fights. Eventually he took an offer from Gen. Choi's group and left for america under the TKD flag. He showed me his school banner from Korea. It translates to Moo Duk Kwan Tong Soo do.
At no time did he ever make mention of the name Soo Bak. I asked him once and was told that they practiced what was allowed which was karate. Since there was a general hatred for the Japanese at that time they named what they were doing "tong soo" in reference to the fighting hand of the Chinese.
My point? STOP calling it Soo Bak Do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The orginazition was called soo bak ki but what was taught was Karate, Tong Soo Do and mixed styles of Kung Fu (WUSHU for those in the know).


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## puunui (Dec 28, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I would say that Dr Yoon took over once the dust settled in the Jidokwan, along with or assisted by GM Lee Chong Woo, a senior student, as the Kwan founder disappeared during the Korean Civil War. They also renamed it the Jidokwan when they re-opened it after the war.




I asked GM LEE Chong Woo why they chose Dr. YOON Kwe Byung as the new leader. He said that Dr. Yoon was a member of the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan Kwon Bup Bu during the 1940's, and as the highest ranked practitioner, he naturally was the one to take over after GM CHUN Sang Sup disappeared. Also, they changed the name to Jidokwan because they no longer were allowed to use the Yun Moo Kwan facilities to practice. Also, I think they reopened during the Korean War, not after.


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## puunui (Dec 28, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes Dr Yoon stayed true to his karate roots. The Modern History & or Steve Capener, PhD may have added that the 1st generation leaders did not like the focus of the 2nd generation leaders.




Steve Capener is an interesting man. He used to show up to USTU events all the time. He speaks fluent Korean. His paper, which was plagerized by Herb Perez in Black Belt magazine, has some inaccuracies in it, mainly because he cites to General Choi's works. 

But irrespective of that, I am not sure that GM HWANG Kee is truly a 1st Generation practitioner, in the sense that he did not train in Karate in Japan, like the other 1st generation people. He did study some sort of Chinese martial arts in Manchuria, which GM LEE Won Kuk confirmed, but he had no Karate experience and learned mainly from GM HYUN Jong Myung when both worked for the railroad. So in that sense, GM Hwang is a 2nd or maybe even 3rd generation practitioner, at least with respect to karate. I think this was one of the primary issues that GM Hwang had with the younger generation, who may have saw themselves as GM Hwang's senior as far as Karate arts went. GM Hwang had the age, but not the experience or training to be a 1st generation practitioner. 

This may have contributed or may help to explain the organization of the Moo Duk Kwan, which was set up like a corporation, with a board of directors which decided things. Sort of like what bluewaveschool had going in his club. 

Even General Choi had seniority over GM Hwang in this regard, in that at least General Choi did study karate in Japan. But while GM Hwang started late, his accomplishments as well  as the accomplishments and contributions of the Moo Duk Kwan cannot be denied.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 29, 2010)

puunui said:


> One question though, if GM HWANG Kee was so against "sport", then why would he register his organization with the Korea Amateur Sports Association?


My guess would be that it was a way to seem legitimate at a very trying time period of great disorganization. Remember their civil war saw more casualties in that short duration in time, in history. Almost complete destruction. This was also after a long period of living under an occupying force. Gangs ruled the streets until the Allied Forces, mainly the USA were able to train Koreans soldiers like Gen Choi, before they slowly set up order. The Republic of Korea went from the 2nd poorest nation on the planet to the host of the G20, the 10 largest economy in the world & 1 of the richest. The 1st recipient nation of the UN to become a donor nation (maybe the only). I have heard older Koreans compare Korea of then to Afganastan of today. 
This is why many forgive the military dictator Gen Park for the terrible things he inflicted on his people, as many see the fruits today.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 29, 2010)

puunui said:


> Steve Capener is an interesting man. He used to show up to USTU events all the time. He speaks fluent Korean. His paper, which was plagerized by Herb Perez in Black Belt magazine, has some inaccuracies in it, mainly because he cites to General Choi's works.


Why is it inaccurate? is it because he cites & uses Gen Choi works for his research?
What in it do you think is not correct?

I also think that being an American he was not hampered by the nasty Korean politics that have confused & manipulated TKD's history of development. He also wrote & conducted his research at a time when the military dictatorships were over & the democratically elected presidents began to really make south Korea a democracy. We must remember that there was not the freedom of speech & press then that there is today in the ROK. Hence today & in the future, more information is coming out about Gen Choi's contributions & how TKD really came about. No more 2,000 year old myths


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 29, 2010)

puunui said:


> But irrespective of that, I am not sure that GM HWANG Kee is truly a 1st Generation practitioner, in the sense that he did not train in Karate in Japan, like the other 1st generation people. He did study some sort of Chinese martial arts in Manchuria, which GM LEE Won Kuk confirmed, but he had no Karate experience and learned mainly from GM HYUN Jong Myung when both worked for the railroad. So in that sense, GM Hwang is a 2nd or maybe even 3rd generation practitioner, at least with respect to karate. I think this was one of the primary issues that GM Hwang had with the younger generation, who may have saw themselves as GM Hwang's senior as far as Karate arts went. GM Hwang had the age, but not the experience or training to be a 1st generation practitioner.
> 
> This may have contributed or may help to explain the organization of the Moo Duk Kwan, which was set up like a corporation, with a board of directors which decided things. Sort of like what bluewaveschool had going in his club.
> 
> Even General Choi had seniority over GM Hwang in this regard, in that at least General Choi did study karate in Japan. But while GM Hwang started late, his accomplishments as well  as the accomplishments and contributions of the Moo Duk Kwan cannot be denied.


Sir I don't wish to get bogged down or sidetracked by definitions. But I do look at things a bit different. Maybe it is also part semantics. I group all 7 Korean that studied martial arts abroad in 1 category, Choi, Chun, Hwang, Ro, Yoon, & Dr Yoon, listed in spelling order only. I call these men the ones that brought martial arts to Korea in the 1940s.
6 of these Korean opened the 6 early kwans, with Dr Yoon helping at the JDK
The 1st heads of these early kwans I call the kwan founders. Their students & the students of Dr Yoon are the 2nd generation leaders. These men (2nd gen), along with Gen Choi & GM Ro can be viewed as founders of ITF or WTF respectively. The Pioneers come from this group & their students, who in turn blazed the trail for TKD around the world. These Pioneers also include kwan founder Gen Choi, as he introduced TKD to Malaysia in 1962. Pioneers that also were the 1st in a nation to bring TKD can also be called the father of TKD for that country.

Yes I also take age into account with seniority, along with who started their study earlier, along with education & station in life.


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## miguksaram (Dec 29, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> He also wrote & conducted his research at a time when the military dictatorships were over & the democratically elected presidents began to really make south Korea a democracy.


You have mentioned the military dictatorship ending and democracy beginning in another thread.  About what time frame are referring to this happening?


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## puunui (Dec 29, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Why is it inaccurate? is it because he cites & uses Gen Choi works for his research? What in it do you think is not correct?



General Choi lied all the time. GM Son pointed it out in his newspaper ad. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> I also think that being an American he was not hampered by the nasty Korean politics that have confused & manipulated TKD's history of development.



there is no nasty korean politics that confused & manipulated Taekwondo's history. The only person who did that was General Choi, in his efforts to secure his wrongful place in history as Taekwondo's founder. The pioneers all have a remarkably homogenous view of Taekwondo's history, having lived through it together. Their view of history is parallels their technical similarity, which is also almost pretty much exactly the same as everyone else's. They all have their own perspective, because they had different areas of responsibility, but their words and their recollections are pretty much uniform. 

Except for General Choi. If you try to somehow blend together his version with everyone else's then confusion, nasty politics and all that gets thrown into the mix. I reached a point where I decided I needed to completely separate General Choi's version from everyone elses. That way, you get a clear picture, of General Choi vs. everyone else. It is really a shame because he tried so hard to be the focal point for Taekwondo, and yet he is almost the antithesis of what Taekwondo is, which is unification, a goal even General Choi strived hard for. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> He also wrote & conducted his research at a time when the military dictatorships were over & the democratically elected presidents began to really make south Korea a democracy. We must remember that there was not the freedom of speech & press then that there is today in the ROK. Hence today & in the future, more information is coming out about Gen Choi's contributions & how TKD really came about. No more 2,000 year old myths



Like I said, Steve Capener used to show up to all the time to USTU events, and we have discussed history while eating dinner and drinking before, about his overreliance on General Choi's works and other issues. After the Modern History came out, he pretty much became quiet about Taekwondo history, and never wrote another article about it after that. He's more into Brazilian Jiujitsu now than Taekwondo.


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## puunui (Dec 29, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> 6 of these Korean opened the 6 early kwans, with Dr Yoon helping at the JDK. The 1st heads of these early kwans I call the kwan founders.




There are only five original kwans, not six. Oh Do Kwan was founded in the the 1950's, and is not considered an original kwan. The Oh Do Kwan is considered an annex or branch kwan of the Chung Do Kwan. The first Kwan Jang of the Oh Do Kwan was GM NAM Tae Hi, not General Choi, although General Choi did use his military influence to make Taekwondo training mandatory. For that, GM SON Duk Sung made his an Honorary 4th Dan and Honorary Chung Do Kwan Jang. The original Oh Do Kwan curriculum was the Chung Do Kwan curriculum.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm going to ask again, post some link, videos, articles, whatever at all, to support your assertions as to how/what the founders felt/thought.  Because you'll never sway any views without backing up what you say is the truth without more solid fact than your memories of conversations.  At least the ITF people can point to the stuff Choi wrote, his auto-bio or the encyclpedia or other books/interview DVDs.


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## puunui (Dec 29, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> I'm going to ask again, post some link, videos, articles, whatever at all, to support your assertions as to how/what the founders felt/thought.  Because you'll never sway any views without backing up what you say is the truth without more solid fact than your memories of conversations.  At least the ITF people can point to the stuff Choi wrote, his auto-bio or the encyclpedia or other books/interview DVDs.




Read the Modern History translations if you want to know how the pioneers felt. And by the way, I don't care if you don't believe me or that I don't sway your views because you don't think I am backing up what I say. That's your problem, please don't attempt to make it mine. In fact, if you don't read any of my posts, I won't lose any sleep over it.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 29, 2010)

It's not that I don't think you aren't backing up what you say, it's that you ARE NOT backing up what you say.  But hey, it's your credibility thats suffering, and I'm not losing any sleep over that.


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## miguksaram (Dec 29, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> It's not that I don't think you aren't backing up what you say, it's that you ARE NOT backing up what you say. But hey, it's your credibility thats suffering, and I'm not losing any sleep over that.


As far as I know Glenn has not brought a tape recorder everytime he talked to people like the late GM Lee, Won-kuk or some of the seniors of TKD.  What he is describing is what was told to him, not something he read.  So if you need proof, I would recommend that you go about the same way he did to get the proof of what he says, just find out where they are and go visit them.

I have found that a lot of seniors of TKD are very open to sharing their thoughts and memories.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 29, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> As far as I know Glenn has not brought a tape recorder everytime he talked to people like the late GM Lee, Won-kuk or some of the seniors of TKD.  What he is describing is what was told to him, not something he read.  So if you need proof, I would recommend that you go about the same way he did to get the proof of what he says, just find out where they are and go visit them.
> 
> I have found that a lot of seniors of TKD are very open to sharing their thoughts and memories.



I would say that bringing a tape recorder every time would most likely be unreasonable, unless you were interviewing for papers/books/whatnot.  But to ask for a singular piece of anything to back what he has repeatedly said relating to what the founders apparently univerally agreed upon (minus Gen. Choi), from any founder, I don't feel is too much to ask.


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## miguksaram (Dec 29, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> I would say that bringing a tape recorder every time would most likely be unreasonable, unless you were interviewing for papers/books/whatnot. But to ask for a singular piece of anything to back what he has repeatedly said relating to what the founders apparently univerally agreed upon (minus Gen. Choi), from any founder, I don't feel is too much to ask.


 
Then the Modern History of Taekwon Do is what you should read.  That depicts time dates and people attending the meetings.  It tells of who was in and who was out, origins of the kwans and what the hang ups were in forming KKW TKD.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 29, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> It's not that I don't think you aren't backing up what you say, it's that you ARE NOT backing up what you say.  But hey, it's your credibility thats suffering, and I'm not losing any sleep over that.


I think Puunui can only back up what he says but assuring the reader that he is repeating as best as he can remember some very valuable info given to him or shared with him by very important & influential figures in the development & history of TKD. He deserves kudos for this.
Now any reader or researcher must be careful in interpreting & weighing this vital info. One of the ways that this can be done & there are many, is to cross reference it with other accounts & historical info available. 
I can honestly say that nothing so far that I have read gives me the impression that this educated & informed martial artist is being deceitful in any way on purpose. I thank him for providing us & any who may come to view this forum for his input, which I for one am most impressed by & grateful for. 
What readers must do is make there own decisions on how to weigh & evaluate this info.

I also wish to be corrected when I miss something or may not be seeing it in a better light. Again Puunui has helped me at times with this. I trust that he will also be open to take in new info as well or too see info in another light as well. This is how true learning occurs.

That being said, TKD students need to know that they have been misled by both sides of the TKD historical discussion. TKD is not 2,000 years old & it was not created by any single person. Even Chang Hon or ITF TKD, which was the 1st Korean martial art to use the name TKD, was not created by a single man, Gen Choi. While is can be credited with being the founder, his system was a compilation & consolidation of many arts by many people from the 1940 & 50s till he passed away in 2002. He led a talented team & even he failed to give much credit to most of them. That is sad & simply not right, especially given the martial art ethos that many believe in


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 29, 2010)

puunui said:


> Read the Modern History translations if you want to know how the pioneers felt.


I think that this piece of work is very important. It of course clearly dispels the 2,000 year old myth & that is important in & of itself. It also is a work done by what i would say are WTF TKD people. (I use the terms ITF & WTF to loosely & broadly paint the difference of the 2 major TKD groups) This is important, as it can not be dismissed as ITF propaganda. This work gives great insight into the happenings of the day & who were making it happen. It also clearly describes the dislike that many had for Gen Choi & why. This when coupled with the history of the times & the politics of Korea, can help us understand why Gen Choi was marginalized. 
Now this written work does a great job of showing how WTF TKD came into being. It ignores the development of the ITF, post KKW inception. I think readers must understand that there is more than 1 TKD. therefore the history & developments, while they start at a common point, the 6 early kwans, in the 1960s, they take different paths, including the main 2, ITF & WTF.


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## miguksaram (Dec 29, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I think that this piece of work is very important. It of course clearly dispels the 2,000 year old myth & that is important in & of itself. It also is a work done by what i would say are WTF TKD people. (I use the terms ITF & WTF to loosely & broadly paint the difference of the 2 major TKD groups) This is important, as it can not be dismissed as ITF propaganda. This work gives great insight into the happenings of the day & who were making it happen. It also clearly describes the dislike that many had for Gen Choi & why. This when coupled with the history of the times & the politics of Korea, can help us understand why Gen Choi was marginalized.
> Now this written work does a great job of showing how WTF TKD came into being. It ignores the development of the ITF, post KKW inception. I think readers must understand that there is more than 1 TKD. therefore the history & developments, while they start at a common point, the 6 early kwans, in the 1960s, they take different paths, including the main 2, ITF & WTF.


 
First, you are better to say ITF & KKW TKD people instead of WTF. WTF, for its original purpose and not what it is trying to do today, is nothing more than the WGB for the sport aspect of KKW TKD.  It has no say on the development of that art aspect of TKD.  Since ITF is the organization that develops the curriculum of their TKD it is better to compare it to KKW not WTF.  

As far as ignoring ITF development, what did it ignore?  At that point ITF broke off into its own little world.  As the ITF people claim to be more traditional than KKW TKD, that tends to tell me that they did not really develope all that much outside of the their claim to fame of SINE.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 29, 2010)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
 				(I use the terms ITF & WTF to  loosely & broadly paint the difference of the 2 major TKD groups)


miguksaram said:


> First, you are better to say ITF & KKW TKD people instead of WTF. WTF, for its original purpose and not what it is trying to do today, is nothing more than the WGB for the sport aspect of KKW TKD.  It has no say on the development of that art aspect of TKD.  Since ITF is the organization that develops the curriculum of their TKD it is better to compare it to KKW not WTF.


Fair point & one I understand well. But that is why I clearly stated (& requoted above) "loosely & broadly". Truth be told you are right & it is more accurate to say Chang Hon TKD & Kukki TKD than ITF & WTF. However the merger talks are always about ITF & WTF, plus the majority of people in my experience use ITF & WTF to distinguish between the 2 major groups.


miguksaram said:


> As far as ignoring ITF development, what did it ignore?  At that point ITF broke off into its own little world.  As the ITF people claim to be more traditional than KKW TKD, that tends to tell me that they did not really develope all that much outside of the their claim to fame of SINE.


The Modern History of TKD by Lee & Kang accurately depicts the formative years of TKD & then the path taken by Kukki TKD. It does not mention Gen Choi, his Pioneers & what they did or how the ITF grew after the mid to late 1960s.
So to be more inclusive they could have included that branch of TKD & its seperate development. They didn't so maybe it should be retitled The Modern History of what would become Kukki TKD or Olympic sport TKD etc, but yes I know not WTF TKD


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## leadleg (Dec 29, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> First, you are better to say ITF & KKW TKD people instead of WTF. WTF, for its original purpose and not what it is trying to do today, is nothing more than the WGB for the sport aspect of KKW TKD.* It has no say on the development of that art aspect of TKD.* Since ITF is the organization that develops the curriculum of their TKD it is better to compare it to KKW not WTF.
> 
> As far as ignoring ITF development, what did it ignore? At that point ITF broke off into its own little world. As the ITF people claim to be more traditional than KKW TKD, that tends to tell me that they did not really develope all that much outside of the their claim to fame of SINE.


 This not true, the WTF has for as long as I remember had a technical advisory commitee on the aspects of poomse and other tkd techniques. The book Learning and Teaching Taekwondo is written by mostly WTF leaders,this book was published by the WTF.The contents of this book are about the art of tkd and is in my opinion very well written and informative. 
The WTF leaders have been going around giving seminars and visiting schools in the US longer than I've seen KKW people coming around. I say this because what they were teaching was the KKW way.
 I would say the one should not be without the other,and they are not when I see the WTF telling us they need KKW proof for their new athlete cards. And the KKW is telling us what the standards will be for the WTF world poomse championships. 
I have a WTF flag and a KKW flag , I am KKW certified but WTF style,that was how my seniors did their school, WTF flag before KKW, but not seperated.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 29, 2010)

leadleg said:


> I am KKW certified but WTF style



What does that even mean?  I was under the impression that KKW = WTF (internationally), and not KKW = WTF + other groups.  The other big groups out there aren't KKW.  Not ATA, ITA or ITF.  I was informed by someone that if I wanted KKW Dan rank, out with my Chang Hon set and in with WTF set.


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## leadleg (Dec 29, 2010)

HUH? 
WTF,OLYMPIC,KKW...all the same when speaking of style. I just always understood I was WTF.In the 80's people started saying kukki tkd,now you are KKW style and not WTF,that makes no sense to me.Having said that my instructor was one of the vice pres. of the WTF,maybe if he had been vp of KKW I would think differently.
 Yes if you want to pass a KKW exam you need the Taegueks,but you need not throw out your chang hon,nor quit teaching them.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

Part of the reason for the confusion is most people don't know about the politics or organizations of TKD. They simply want to train, sweat & beat the other person, whether it be in a tournament or a real fight. That being said the ITF was an international federation spreading TKD. So it only makes sense that for some/many a different international federation name was needed to balance, hence the WORLD TKD Fed. (WTF). Look they even look so much alike, except for 1 little letter. I have heard that in Korean the distinction may even be less. So it became in 1973 the ITF vs the WTF. Both held their won world championships that students vied to be a part of.
Another big reason for the confusion was that since 1971, Dr Kim Un Yong was the govt man in charge of TKD in south Korea as 6th president of the KTA. In 1972 he wore a 2nd hat at the same time as president of the KKW. Then the following year in 1973, he picked up a 3rd hat as president of the WTF. he wore all 3 hats at the same time till his arrest & subsequent conviction of corruption charges for which he serve time in prison.
The black belt certificate were issued by the KTA, till the KKW took over that duty. The KKW is the world TKD academy, with the WTF being the International Federation for the sport of TKD. Confusing right? Yes!
Let me make it more confusing: the black belt certificates, while all signed by Dr Kim, had a different times, different logos, including at times both the KKW & WTF logo. At times his signature would be as WTF president or KKW president. Then the 3 groups have now been headed by 3 leaders. Each group has their own set of duties. Cohesion may suffer, but the separation maybe needed in light of the past corruption & the fact that TKD is so important to Korea.
So I don't blame people for the confusion, nor do I make a big deal about it.


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> That being said the ITF was an international federation spreading TKD. So it only makes sense that for some/many a different international federation name was needed to balance, hence the WORLD TKD Fed. (WTF). Look they even look so much alike, except for 1 little letter. I have heard that in Korean the distinction may even be less. So it became in 1973 the ITF vs the WTF.



That is the ITF view, ITF vs. WTF. From the other side, it is Taekwondo, with the ITF being a private organization trying to horn in. The two sides are not equals, and never were. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Then the following year in 1973, he picked up a 3rd hat as president of the WTF. he wore all 3 hats at the same time till his arrest & subsequent conviction of corruption charges for which he serve time in prison.



That's not true. Dr. Kim stopped being KTA president in I want to say the early 90's. I remember that the new KTA president came to Hawaii in 1995 or so for a tournament. Dr. Kim moved the WTF offices out of the Kukkiwon in I want to say 2001 or so, and the Kukkiwon and WTF became separated. 

As for Dr. Kim's arrest, that was a political decision that Korea has now acknowledged as one of the biggest mistakes Korea has ever made internationally. It was stupid and foolish and we are still paying for that mistake, by having President Choue at the helm. My prediction is that Dr. Kim will be remembered as the person who got us into the Olympics, and President Choue will be remembered as the person who got us out of the Olympics. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> The black belt certificate were issued by the KTA, till the KKW took over that duty. The KKW is the world TKD academy, with the WTF being the International Federation for the sport of TKD. Confusing right? Yes!



No, not really.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_That being said the ITF was an  international federation spreading TKD. So it only makes sense that for  some/many a different international federation name was needed to  balance, hence the WORLD TKD Fed. (WTF). Look they even look so much  alike, except for 1 little letter. I have heard that in Korean the  distinction may even be less. So it became in 1973 the ITF vs the WTF._


puunui said:


> That is the ITF view, ITF vs. WTF. From the other side, it is Taekwondo, with the ITF being a private organization trying to horn in. The two sides are not equals, and never were.


Come on Sir, you are not being reasonable here or at least you misunderstood me. I am only talking about root words in an attempt, weak one apparently  to describe why many look at it as ITF & WTF, instead of some more approriate or accurate terms. I have heard that there is little difference in Korean hangul on how the ITF & WTF are written/translated. That was my only point.
Now you are correct, the ITF is not equal to the WTF.
The ITF is often described in a negative way when it is referred to as a private org. It was founded in Korea & listed with 2 govt entities as an international org. Once the ITF left Korea it did not receive the support from the govt that the WTF & south Korean TKD did. It also did not succeed in being accepted as a international sports org as it did not have the backing of Korea & had to battle the attempts of the military dictatorship, through the KCIA to destroy it, which would have silenced Gen Choi's loud voice of vocal opposition to the dictatorial regimes.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

puunui said:


> That's not true. Dr. Kim stopped being KTA president in I want to say the early 90's. I remember that the new KTA president came to Hawaii in 1995 or so for a tournament. Dr. Kim moved the WTF offices out of the Kukkiwon in I want to say 2001 or so, and the Kukkiwon and WTF became separated.


Thank you Sir, I may not have known that. The KTA succession has been difficult for me to follow. 


puunui said:


> As for Dr. Kim's arrest, that was a political decision that Korea has now acknowledged as one of the biggest mistakes Korea has ever made internationally. It was stupid and foolish and we are still paying for that mistake, by having President Choue at the helm. My prediction is that Dr. Kim will be remembered as the person who got us into the Olympics, and President Choue will be remembered as the person who got us out of the Olympics.


I do not join you in your lack of confidence in Dr Choue, but do agree that Dr Kim is the Olympic TKD Man! History must credit him as he was a genius, a hard worker that did not stop till he succeeded. There is no doubt about it.
Now again I sense your double standard coming to the surface 
So are the nasty Korean politics only actually real or nasty when it comes to those you support?
Plus what do you mean by it was "a political decision that Korea has now acknowledged as one of the biggest mistakes Korea has ever made internationally"? Who do you mean by Korea? There are many that are ashamed & embarrass because of his crimes. 
Plus how do you explain millions of $ hidden in his home?
There is no doubt that Dr Kim did great things for TKD & we must rightfully credit him.
However not all of his tactics were above board. The Olympics has been plaqued with corruption & he played the game so well, helping to insure success for him, TKD & Korea.
Hopefully Kukki TKD will remain in the Olympics. If it doesn't, there will be many contributing factors, not all of which I think can be blamed on Dr Choue


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> So are the nasty Korean politics only actually real or nasty when it comes to those you support? Plus what do you mean by it was "a political decision that Korea has now acknowledged as one of the biggest mistakes Korea has ever made internationally"? Who do you mean by Korea? There are many that are ashamed & embarrass because of his crimes. Plus how do you explain millions of $ hidden in his home?




Dr. Kim belonged on one political party in Korea, I forget the name at the moment, and he accepted an appointed seat in the Korean Assembly for which there was a vacancy. The other political party got upset with Dr. Kim and so when they came into power with the change in ROK Presidency, they targeted him for activities that the prior administration had him doing as a sports diplomat. This included giving olive branches to North Korea and fostering talks. Part of what Dr. Kim was doing was facilitating the giving of money and other gifts to North Korea through back channels. That money that they found in his house was to be used for that purpose. the opposition knew this and trumped up charges against him in an effort to tear him down, and by doing so, tearing down the prior administration and its policies. No one benefited from tearing Dr. Kim down, certainly not Taekwondoin. 

The president who did this was paid back karmically when his own family was accused of misdeeds, and he ended up committing suicide by jumping off a mountain. 

Later that same administration realized that they made a terrible mistake because they ruined a true international leader from Korea, who was a leader to the world, and not just Korea. Again, we are still feeling the ramifications of this stupid decision, in much the same way that the USAT is feeling the effects of the foolish decision by the USOC to intercede into the USTU, which was again for idiot, vindictive reasons. 

Dr. Kim comes from a well educated wealthy family, and he also was employed by the Samsung corporation so he had more money than enough money. Dr. Kim is also not one to challenge the government so he accepted quietly accepted responsibility. 

Recently, Dr. Kim's life story was featured in a series of newspaper articles which many Korean borns have told me was very touching and uplifting for them to read. Many didn't know much about Taekwondo, but they admired Dr. Kim's works and felt proud to be Korean through his efforts. After that series came out, which was also featured in many korean language newspapers in the US, not many Koreans have bad things to say about Dr. Kim, accept maybe those who resented or hated him prior to all that stuff happening.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

Great post. I am well aware of the nasty Korean politics & how they have hurt TKD & people in TKD. I see how they impacted Dr Kim & Kukki TKD, but you seem not willing to see how nasty politics hurt Gen Choi & his TKD people. The knife cuts both ways Sir


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## miguksaram (Dec 30, 2010)

leadleg said:


> This not true, the WTF has for as long as I remember had a technical advisory commitee on the aspects of poomse and other tkd techniques. The book Learning and Teaching Taekwondo is written by mostly WTF leaders,this book was published by the WTF.The contents of this book are about the art of tkd and is in my opinion very well written and informative.


If I understand correctly the advisory board is for technical matters when dealing with compeititon poomosae not the development.  Yes, books can be written by WTF leaders, but they KKW certified instructors writing books on the KKW TKD system.  They are not writing about a whole new system thought up by WTF advisory board.  



			
				leadleg said:
			
		

> The WTF leaders have been going around giving seminars and visiting schools in the US longer than I've seen KKW people coming around. I say this because what they were teaching was the KKW way.


Right....they are teaching the KKW way.  Which just proves my point that while WTF handles the sport aspect of the TKD it is KKW who develops the system itself.  To say you are practicing WTF style of TKD is technically not correct.  The WTF reflects only what the KKW developed.  They may tweak for purposes of competition, but the core is KKW TKD not WTF TKD.



			
				leadleg said:
			
		

> I would say the one should not be without the other,and they are not when I see the WTF telling us they need KKW proof for their new athlete cards. And the KKW is telling us what the standards will be for the WTF world poomse championships.
> I have a WTF flag and a KKW flag , I am KKW certified but WTF style,that was how my seniors did their school, WTF flag before KKW, but not seperated.


Ok...then answer me this;  You say that WTF tells you you need KKW proof of certification.  When I go for my next rank in TKD will the KKW ask me for my WTF membership of if I have participated in the World Poomsae Championships or any WTF related tournament?


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## miguksaram (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Fair point & one I understand well. But that is why I clearly stated (& requoted above) "loosely & broadly".


Fair enough



			
				KarateMomUSA said:
			
		

> However the merger talks are always about ITF & WTF, plus the majority of people in my experience use ITF & WTF to distinguish between the 2 major groups.


Right and the majority of the people are incorrect when distinguishing the two in that matter. 



			
				KarateMomUSA said:
			
		

> The Modern History of TKD by Lee & Kang accurately depicts the formative years of TKD & then the path taken by Kukki TKD. It does not mention Gen Choi, his Pioneers & what they did or how the ITF grew after the mid to late 1960s.
> So to be more inclusive they could have included that branch of TKD & its seperate development. They didn't so maybe it should be retitled The Modern History of what would become Kukki TKD or Olympic sport TKD etc, but yes I know not WTF TKD


I can agree with that.


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## leadleg (Dec 30, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> If I understand correctly the advisory board is for technical matters when dealing with compeititon poomosae not the development. Yes, books can be written by WTF leaders, but they KKW certified instructors writing books on the KKW TKD system. They are not writing about a whole new system thought up by WTF advisory board.
> 
> You are right they do not think up a whole new system,but they are being involved in promoting the art. Which is beyond the limited role you give them.
> 
> ...


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## miguksaram (Dec 30, 2010)

leadleg said:


> You are right they do not think up a whole new system,but they are being involved in promoting the art. Which is beyond the limited role you give them.


The role I depict them in is their core roll.  By saying they are a system TKD simply because they promote it would be no different than to say I am system of TKD because I teach and promote it my students.



			
				Leadleg said:
			
		

> Let me see you have never heard any one say WTF style? You telling me what is correct or incorrect about how I explain and am universally understood...


Just because it is acceptable does not mean it is correct.  It was universally understood that TKD was 2000 years old.  It was universally understood that the sun revolved around the earth.  Were either universally understood concepts correct?



			
				leadleg said:
			
		

> ...is hilarious,considering you call yourself kukki tkd but your school name is Sharky's Karate.  Also you use Japanese terms on your signature.Besides you are proving my point WTF is KKW TKD so show me where You feel we should use only your term.


~sigh~Seriously...you are going to play the Karate card on me?  I am certified 3rd dan KKW.  I have been involved in Korean martial arts for 25+ years. I started in Tangsoodo in 1984 where I received my 1st dan back in 1987.  During my time in the military I got involved in KKW TKD while stationed in Italy, where I was awarded my 1st dan through the school, but no KKW certification.  When I got back to the states I began teaching and practicing Chungdokwan under Mst. Kim, Gab-tong where I received my KKW 1st dan and a Chungdokwan 1st dan (circa 1992).  I left the school due to moving.  I began studying at a school which held several different classes.  I chose Hapkido and Kempo/Kenjutsu, but helped with the Takekwondo class which was headed by Mst. Glen Gavin.  I was there until 1998 when I moved again and began studying KKW TKD, Kumdo under GM Park, Kyoung-ho...there he requested me to finally test for my 2nd dan since I was 1st dan for so long.  I moved again in 2003 where I took up Shorei-ryu Karate under Sensei John Sharkey, which incidently was the first art that I learned when I started martial arts back in 1980.  I have still visit GM Park from time to time, I still work with TKD kids who come to our training camps and still remain active in the Korean TKD community through friends and fellow school owners.  I was recently promoted to KKW 3rd Dan back in 2009.  

So please do not let the "Karate" fool you.  I have a little bit of insight on TKD and its culture.  At least enough that Pres. Lee, Sang-chul thought I would be a good fit and was generous enough to allow me to participate in two Masters trip they help sponsor back in 2009 and 2010. 



			
				leadleg said:
			
		

> The KKW wil not be asking you jack,if you did participate at worlds they may at least recognise you.As you well know unless you annex youself into a small country you will never be a member of the WTF,only practicing that style.Lastly if the WTF did not require KKW proof cert. not near as many people would go for it.
> One without the other? I don't think so.


You still don't get it.  It doesn't matter if WTF required KKW cert or not.  They are not a style of martial arts.  They are mearly a sports organization who promotes the STYLE of KKW TKD.


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## leadleg (Dec 30, 2010)

Whatever cowboy, I will use and will accept the term WTF style or KKW style without acting as if everyone must toe my line.
 Your history does nothing to impress me as much as the Karate School you associate yourself with while you dabble in the Korean Arts.


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## miguksaram (Dec 30, 2010)

leadleg said:


> Whatever cowboy, I will use and will accept the term WTF style or KKW style without acting as if everyone must toe my line.
> Your history does nothing to impress me as much as the Karate School you associate yourself with while you dabble in the Korean Arts.


Wasn't looking to impress you or anyone else for that matter. Wasn't even trying to recruit you to my way of thinking. You were the one that brought up that I am in a Karate school and that you shouldn't take me serious because of it.  So I simply explained my Korean MA background to help give some merit to what I am saying.  You want to be technically wrong...your perogative. I will still state what is correct regadless of the main party line. And yes, I will continue...ummm..."dabble" in the Korean arts as I have done so for many years...enjoy the kool-aide.


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## leadleg (Dec 30, 2010)

I don't mind the technicality issue,nor the WTF is nothing more than a sport organisation,its the attitude that you feel someone should speak in your terms. I have no clue as to what party line you are speaking of,nor your reference to kool aid.


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## miguksaram (Dec 30, 2010)

leadleg said:


> I don't mind the technicality issue,nor the WTF is nothing more than a sport organisation,its the attitude that you feel someone should speak in your terms. I have no clue as to what party line you are speaking of,nor your reference to kool aid.


The "attitude" I display is nothing more than your personal emotions playing a part in how you interrpret what you are reading. Since you can not read my body language, see my facial expression, or hear the sound of my voice in an posting, you can not determine what my attitude unless I make snide remarks or RAISE MY LETTERS.

I answered questions and explained my point...somewhere along the way, you seem to get ruffled up...why? I do not know. I looked back at my postings and unless it was the question I asked "Ok...then answer me this;...." that caused you to feel I have an attitude, I don't believe I displayed having an attitude on any of this. However, I know what my attitude and intent was in my postings. So my perspective, naturally, is biased. It wasn't until you called me out on being in karate that I started show any type of attitude in my posting. Even then the attitude was amusement, not anger because I find it amusing when KMA people play the "your a karate person" card against me thinking I have no knowledge in TKD or any KMA for that matter.

So again if you do not subscribe to my way of thinking...no problem. My sun will rise and set the same as it always has. You don't want to take my opinoins seriously because I study Karate, that is fine. You consider my 25+ years as "dabbling" in Korean arts, that is fine, because basicly you don't know anything about me or my involvement in the Korean arts outside of the basic bio I put up here. 

For the record...the party line I am referring to are all those who say WTF TKD....The Kool-aide reference is from Jonestown incident back in 1978. As I do not know your age, the reference may be lost on you.


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## msmitht (Dec 30, 2010)

Wow. You guys and girls can rant. Politics aside...
I have been studying korean, japanese and brazilian martial arts since 1978. There are many different versions of tkd history out there. Most koreans will not tell you the whole truth without some soju. The younger generation doesn't know or doesn't want to. You all should know that history depends on your point of view, or at least the pov of the writer. 
1. The written texts are all biased towards the org the writer belongs to. Anything claimed before the japanese occupation is heresay. The japanese, like any conquering nation, destroyed all books/scrolls and put down teachers(killed). Any martial history b4 1900 has ben fabricated or they embeleshed what they found on tombs.
2. There were 5 kwans and they all practiced a mix of karate, kung fu and diato ryu jiujitsu(or judo). Due to anti japanese/chinese mindset this has been left out of many textbooks.
3. There are no more kwans in korea
4. At least bjj and judo have a simple hiistory that is well documented. Too much bickering here. You are all too obsessed and need to go train and forget about a partially falsified history.  Unless you want to start talking about all the gangsters there were in the original kwans...oh right, that would not bring students in the door!


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## miguksaram (Dec 30, 2010)

msmitht said:


> Unless you want to start talking about all the gangsters there were in the original kwans...oh right, that would not bring students in the door!


Depends on where you open your school.


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## msmitht (Dec 30, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Depends on where you open your school.



Rotflol! True though.


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

msmitht said:


> 3. There are no more kwans in korea



Actually there still are.


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Great post. I am well aware of the nasty Korean politics & how they have hurt TKD & people in TKD. I see how they impacted Dr Kim & Kukki TKD, but you seem not willing to see how nasty politics hurt Gen Choi & his TKD people. The knife cuts both ways Sir




"nasty korean politics". To me, it is just politics, and adding nasty and korean, doesn't do anything. Also, General Choi's situation and Dr. Kim's situation are different. General Choi was a hinderance and obstacle to the process. He directly or indirectly caused the downfall of two Kwan Jang, GM Son and GM Hwang. He needed to go in order for Taekwondo to move forward. But Dr. Kim, he was doing what he was supposed to be doing and got caught up in between two different political parties. He was like a President Bush appointee who was taken down by President Obama, which hurt the United States overall, which the Obama Administration later recognized.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

msmitht said:


> Wow. You guys and girls can rant. Politics aside...
> I have been studying korean, japanese and brazilian martial arts since 1978. There are many different versions of tkd history out there. Most koreans will not tell you the whole truth without some soju.  MOST KOREANS DO NOT KNOW THE WHOLE TRUTH
> 
> The younger generation doesn't know or doesn't want to. You all should know that history depends on your point of view, or at least the pov of the writer. NO OFTEN HISTORY IN THE SHORT TERM IS DEPENDENT ON THE POV OF THE WRITER & THAT IS INFLUENCED BY THOSE IN POWER. BUT AFTER THE PASSAGE OF TIME, THOSE IN POWER MOVE ON & HISTORIANS ARE FREER TO RECORD HISTORY AS IT HAPPENED. THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW. KOREA REALIZES THAT THE 2,000 YEAR OLD MYTH DID NOT WORK & NOW THAT SOUTH KOREA IS A DEMOCRACY, HISTORIANS, REPORTERS, WRITERS & THOSE THAT WERE THERE CAN TELL THE STORY WITHOUT FEAR OF REPRISAL OR BEING CENSURED!
> ...


I am engaged in a discussion to help sort out all the BS many have come to know over the years for exactly the same reasons that you accurately point out above & more. The web is a powerful tool for the open exchange of ideas & the debunking of myths. I for one am enjoying these threads & what valuable info that has been posted. I hope it continues as it will help to shed light on much nonsense passed off in the past as truth.
The TRUTH shall set ye FREE!


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

puunui said:


> "nasty korean politics". To me, it is just politics, and adding nasty and korean, doesn't do anything.


I am sure that whenever 2 or more get together in most relationships there is the normal "politics" that such relationships entail, often needed to foster connections & get things done. At times these politics do become "nasty". In the discussion of TKD's history, how it developed & who developed it, several levels & types of politics play a part. The label "Korean" is added as these politics not only took place in Korea, by Koreans, among Koreans & towards Koreans, but they at times had actual Korean national, international & inter/intra-Korean geo-politics involved. 
I think that the Koreans that had their lives affected negatively, in some cases ruined, by being blacklisted as communists or traitors, would indeed feel that it was nasty.


puunui said:


> Also, General Choi's situation and Dr. Kim's situation are different. General Choi was a hinderance and obstacle to the process. He directly or indirectly caused the downfall of two Kwan Jang, GM Son and GM Hwang. He needed to go in order for Taekwondo to move forward. But Dr. Kim, he was doing what he was supposed to be doing and got caught up in between two different political parties. He was like a President Bush appointee who was taken down by President Obama, which hurt the United States overall, which the Obama Administration later recognized.


Of course the situations were different. But the point still remains unanswered or unaddressed that regardless of their respective situations, nasty Korean politics played a part in attacking them. That is my point! 
Gen Choi was a hindrance to the progress of Kukki TKD. I have always conceded that. While there were people who wanted to pay back Gen Choi for how he abused them when he was in power under the puppet govt & people who resented his poor leadership style & did not like his type of TKD or his focus & direction, the source of his political troubles was the fact that he became a leading outspoken critic of the dictatorships, similar to GM Lee Won Kuk getting screwed over because of politics. The more that Gen Choi raised his voice of opposition, the more the screws were put to him & his private ITF TKD organization, as many like to refer to it as. There is no doubt that Gen Choi was a political person & that he used TKD & the ITF to further his political agende. That came with a price & part of that price was an all out war conducted by the dictators through the KCIA, which also had TKD people in south Korea trying to minimize his role, accomplishments etc.

So while south Korea may not recognize the ITF or didn't during the military dictators regimes, many around the world do. People around the world need also to know what the ITF TKD has done & who were the ones that did it, just as Kukki TKD should do with what they have done & who got it done. It is sad that in south Korea today, the ITF Dojangs have that communist stigma, with at least 1 being forced to move to the international area, as Koreans will not join.

So Chang Hon TKD & Kukki TKD have shared roots. But then the history has to be told in at least 2 stories, Chag Hon & Kukki. We have to stop the myths & more importantly the attacks on the other side. We know that they are different, just keep the stories seperate, but keep them honest

Gen Choi broke laws in south Korea when he went to north Korea starting in 1979.
Dr Kim broke laws in south Korea when he did things against the law, at the behest of a corrupt govt.
Gen Choi could have chose an honorable way according to many, when it came to north Korea. He may use the excuse he did it for TKD & Korea.
Dr Kim could have chose an honorable way according to many, when he was asked to break laws. He may use the excuse he did it for TKD & Korea.
I guess each of us is free to decide on their honor, but there is still no getting around what they have done for their TKD & Korea!


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## leadleg (Dec 31, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> The "attitude" I display is nothing more than your personal emotions playing a part in how you interrpret what you are reading. Since you can not read my body language, see my facial expression, or hear the sound of my voice in an posting, you can not determine what my attitude unless I make snide remarks or RAISE MY LETTERS.
> 
> I answered questions and explained my point...somewhere along the way, you seem to get ruffled up...why? I do not know. I looked back at my postings and unless it was the question I asked "Ok...then answer me this;...." that caused you to feel I have an attitude, I don't believe I displayed having an attitude on any of this. However, I know what my attitude and intent was in my postings. So my perspective, naturally, is biased. It wasn't until you called me out on being in karate that I started show any type of attitude in my posting. Even then the attitude was amusement, not anger because I find it amusing when KMA people play the "your a karate person" card against me thinking I have no knowledge in TKD or any KMA for that matter.
> 
> ...


 I am sorry Jeramy I did not mean bad attitude just the attitude that we need to call the style what you think we should. 
I think it is funny that you would ask a Taekwondoin to use your language when you come across as a karate guy,not that there is any thing wrong with that,I was one once a long,long time ago.
 The term WTF school or style is very common in my circles,AAU USAT USTC ETC..
 I did not know there was any sort of movement out there to call WTF TKD versus KKW TKD.Yes I know the reference to jonestown just wonder who you think is handing out said kool aid.
 I have never checked your bio here,I do know you do some stuff for USTC.I did see a woman wearing a Sharky's Karate uniform at the inst.lisc.course in Chicago,is this a representative of your TKD? 
Anyway relax I am not out to get you,after all we both practice WTF TKD right?er I mean Kukki Tkd


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## miguksaram (Dec 31, 2010)

leadleg said:


> I am sorry Jeramy I did not mean bad attitude just the attitude that we need to call the style what you think we should.


 
Sorry if anyone felt I came off as saying you need to call it KKW TKD.  The only thing anyone NEEDS to do is live a good life.  As I said, you do not need subscribe to my thoughts on how it should be named.  I am just saying that it is the correct way of referring to it.  Do it or don't it....it's all the same.  My point was just trying to educate some people who actually do not know what style they are learning because, as you said, many people simply refer to it as WTF style, when that is incorrect.  Now once people know which is right and wrong it is up to them to adjust.



			
				leadleg said:
			
		

> I think it is funny that you would ask a Taekwondoin to use your language when you come across as a karate guy,not that there is any thing wrong with that,I was one once a long,long time ago.


 
But it is not my language...it is Taekwondo language.  How does one come across as a karate guy vs a Taekwondo guy?  I speak basic-intermediate Korean, I am well versed in Korean culture, I study Korean history, watch Korean dramas...hell I prefer Korean drinks over sake. ha.ha.ha.  Not sure how I come off as a Karate guy outside of my signature.  



			
				leadleg said:
			
		

> The term WTF school or style is very common in my circles,AAU USAT USTC ETC..
> I did not know there was any sort of movement out there to call WTF TKD versus KKW TKD.Yes I know the reference to jonestown just wonder who you think is handing out said kool aid.


 
There is no movement, just correcting what I saw was wrong.  Kool-aide referenced because, you said that most everyone calls it WTF TKD.  Just because everyone else is doing it, didn't make it correct and to use the mentality of hey it's just the way it is and accept it like drinking the kool-aide at Jonestown.  



			
				leadleg said:
			
		

> I have never checked your bio here,I do know you do some stuff for USTC.


I was referring to my quick bio that I posted in this thread.  Yes, I am involved with the USTC.  After meeting with Pres. Lee and meeting many great US TKD pioneers and their students, I decided that they have kool-aide I want to drink. ha.ha.ha.



			
				leadleg said:
			
		

> I did see a woman wearing a Sharky's Karate uniform at the inst.lisc.course in Chicago,is this a representative of your TKD?


Did the back of her uniform have a triangle and said Sharkey's Karate?  If so I honestly do not know who she was.  There have been no Sharkey instructors that I know of that attended the seminar.   



			
				leadleg said:
			
		

> Anyway relax I am not out to get you,after all we both practice WTF TKD right?er I mean Kukki Tkd


ha.ha.ha...No worries...These type of things rarely get to me.  When you meet me in person you will find that I am still adamant about my veiw points, but I'm very easy going...especially after having some soju.


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## SahBumNimRush (Dec 31, 2010)

I know this is off topic, but I'm curious what Sharkey's is like these days.  When I was in Chiropractic school in Chicago (actually in Lombard), I trained with one of Sharkey's old students that I went to school with.  It was a great fit for a training partner, very traditional in technique and mindset.  I was surprised to find out that Mike Chaturantabut and Matt Mullens were Sharkey's students, since they were the "founders" of XMA ("extreme" martial arts) which is anything but traditional, if you could consider it a MARTIAL art at all.  My friend that trained under Sensei Sharkey told me that he trained with Mike Chat when they were both students and that the classes were still very traditional, but my friend left when he went away to school many years ago.  I am just curious if the gymnastic/movie/flash stuff had been encorporated into the curriculum or if it is still only traditional Shorei-ryu.

For those of you not familiar with Mike Chat, he was the blue power ranger and was one of the guys who really innovated the kick tricks and gymnastics part of creative forms and weapons, which IMNSHO is not martial arts at all.  Although it is very entertaining to watch!


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## miguksaram (Dec 31, 2010)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I know this is off topic, but I'm curious what Sharkey's is like these days.


Sensei Sharkey hasn't really changed at all.  Well he may not be as "mean" as he once was, but times dictate that he be a more kinder gentler Sensei, which would still be considered hard in today's standars. ha.haha  He is still very much a stern traditionalist when it comes to what we do.   



			
				SahBumNimRush said:
			
		

> When I was in Chiropractic school in Chicago (actually in Lombard), I trained with one of Sharkey's old students that I went to school with. It was a great fit for a training partner, very traditional in technique and mindset.


Did you train with Leo Gerdov or Jack Groves?  Leo is the only one that I know who went to the school as a student, but Jack was VP there I believe.  And yes  both are very traditional instructors.



			
				SahBumNimRush said:
			
		

> I was surprised to find out that Mike Chaturantabut and Matt Mullens were Sharkey's students, since they were the "founders" of XMA ("extreme" martial arts) which is anything but traditional, if you could consider it a MARTIAL art at all.


Mike and Matt are very traditional in what they do and they are very talented in the XMA are as well.  I would not call them founders, but they Mike did develope the XMA format which is being taught in many schools.  It is show only and never meant to be taught as a style.  However that is a whole thread in of its own.  



			
				SahBumNimRush said:
			
		

> My friend that trained under Sensei Sharkey told me that he trained with Mike Chat when they were both students and that the classes were still very traditional, but my friend left when he went away to school many years ago. I am just curious if the gymnastic/movie/flash stuff had been encorporated into the curriculum or if it is still only traditional Shorei-ryu.


While we have an XMA class (not really taught the way Mike's curriculum works) it is a seperate program all together.  Our classes are traditional Shorei-ryu classes.  We still teach it traditionally.  Sensei Sharkey likes the XMA program but is very strict on our students who enter it.  They must be doing well in their traditional classes, they must attend at least 2 of their classes a week in order to participate in the XMA class on the weekend.  They must maintain a good GPA.  He believes, as does Mike and Matt, that in order to be truely successful in the XMA program you MUST have a strong foundation in traditional arts.  Mike himself said flash is trash without good basics.  We must be doing something right as we just had our 12th Annual 4 Day Winter Camp end yesterday where we had people from all over the US attending (TX, IA, WI, MI, NY, IL, FL, ME).  They came for both traditional and XMA training.



			
				SahBumNimRush said:
			
		

> For those of you not familiar with Mike Chat, he was the blue power ranger and was one of the guys who really innovated the kick tricks and gymnastics part of creative forms and weapons, which IMNSHO is not martial arts at all. Although it is very entertaining to watch!


To add to that Matt Mullins was Wing Knight on the now defunct series Kamen Riders.  He also starred in Adventures of Johnny Tao, Blood Sport 2010 and developed the Sideswipe Performance Team which landed in the top 8 of America's Got Talent and has now landed a 6 month gig at the Tropicana in Las Vegas (www.sideswipelive.com).


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## SahBumNimRush (Dec 31, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Sensei Sharkey hasn't really changed at all.  Well he may not be as "mean" as he once was, but times dictate that he be a more kinder gentler Sensei, which would still be considered hard in today's standars. ha.haha  He is still very much a stern traditionalist when it comes to what we do.
> 
> 
> Did you train with Leo Gerdov or Jack Groves?  Leo is the only one that I know who went to the school as a student, but Jack was VP there I believe.  And yes  both are very traditional instructors.
> ...



1.   I trained with Steve Yingling, he would've been at Sharkey's in the late 80's through the mid 90's I think.  I don't believe that Steve made it to 1st dan, but his technique was impressive enough for me to have a deep respect for Sensei Sharkey even though I've never met him.  

2.  I only know of Mike and Matt from their XMA endevours, but I'm sure they are good traditionalists if they came from Sharkey's.

3.  I think that is a great way to set up the curriculum.  An added bonus for those students that work hard, while not taking away anything from the traditional instruction.

4.  Last post off topic in this thread before we just move to a new one, PROMISE


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## miguksaram (Dec 31, 2010)

SahBumNimRush said:


> 1. I trained with Steve Yingling, he would've been at Sharkey's in the late 80's through the mid 90's I think. I don't believe that Steve made it to 1st dan, but his technique was impressive enough for me to have a deep respect for Sensei Sharkey even though I've never met him.


First thank you for the kind words for Sensei Sharkey. I asked him about Steve. He was a brown belt at the school. Sensei said he was really good.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 31, 2010)

msmitht said:


> 2. There were 5 kwans and they all practiced a mix of karate, kung fu and diato ryu jiujitsu(or judo). Due to anti japanese/chinese mindset this has been left out of many textbooks.


 
This is an interesting comment. Which of the Kwans practiced Daito Ryu?

There were more than five Kwans involved in the Taekwon-Do unification movement.

I do know many Koreans still have an anti-Japanese attitude due to the Japanese occupation of Korea but am not familiar with a general anti-Chinese attitude. In fact, the name Tang Soo Do was used by people because it had a Chinese connotation instead of the Japanese connotation that Kong Soo Do had.

Pax and Merry Christmas,

Chris


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 31, 2010)

Quote:Originally Posted by *msmitht* 

 
_2. There were 5 kwans and they all  practiced a mix of karate, kung fu and diato ryu jiujitsu(or judo). Due  to anti japanese/chinese mindset this has been left out of many  textbooks._


chrispillertkd said:


> This is an interesting comment. Which of the Kwans practiced Daito Ryu?


Puunui will help us with this & this is addressed in the Modern History. 
The Jidokwan opened after the liberation in a Judo school that operated during the occupation. Also 1 of the 7 Koreans that went abroad & brought back martial arts to Korea, also studied Judo (Yoon or Chun, I always mix them up). One was close with another & they most likely shared judo with the other. 



chrispillertkd said:


> There were more than five Kwans involved in the Taekwon-Do unification movement.


Yes there were, but there were only 5 original kwans (civilian) & 6 early kwans, with the Oh Do kwan being the 6th, as Gen Choi was 1 of the 7 that went abroad & was teaching TangSuDo to his troops since 1946. (Lt Nam (retired-Colonel) started teaching in the army in 1947. So the 6 early kwans trace their roots to these 7 learning abroad & 1944-47 teaching in Korea. I think 9 kwans signed the unification agreement in August of 1978, with a 10th kwan added as an administrative kwan. There is no way to come up with a real hard number of ow many kwans unified Kukki TKD, unless you 1st set up criteria as to what comprises a kwan & not a sub-kwan or off shoot kwan. Some if not many would say that the Oh Do kwan was a sub-kwan or off shoot of the Chung Do kwan. They can make a strong argument for that case, depending on the criteria that sets the ground work. I disagree with that, but do acknowledge that it was not an original kwan & fits better in the term early kwan. Hence the equal seat at the KASA when the KTA was 1st formed with the 5 other kwans



chrispillertkd said:


> I do know many Koreans still have an anti-Japanese attitude due to the Japanese occupation of Korea but am not familiar with a general anti-Chinese attitude. In fact, the name Tang Soo Do was used by people because it had a Chinese connotation instead of the Japanese connotation that Kong Soo Do had.


OK the Chinese sentiment is no where near the level of the hated Japanese & it comes in part from a different reason(s). Parts of China were occupied by the Japanese before & during the 2nd World War. Both Korea & China had a common enemy, Japan. Half of Korea was aligned with communist "Red China" post WWII. In fact, north Korea fought on the side of Red China against the Chinese Nationalists. If not, they would have probably attacked south Korea sooner, as a lot of fighting took place before the actual invasion of south Korea by the north on June 25, 1950. I think it has been documented by Dr. Cummings that the south actually killed more north Koreans prior to the official start of the Korean Civil War, as much fighting went back & forth, but it was not a full scale war, just deadly skirmishes. Additionally when Gen MacArthur ordered the Incheon Landing, the tide of the war was turned in favor of the US led UN coalition. Gen MacArthur brilliantly cut off & penned in the communist north Koreans & was now making the push north with no one to fight against. They would have unified Korea right then & there. However Red China entered the war, surrounded US Marines & Army soldiers, almost destroying them totally, until Gen Smith ordering to turn & fight there way to the harbor south. The war became a stalemate, with a cease fire being signed on July 27, 1953. No treaty was ever signed.

So naturally those in the south hate the communist Chinese. By even those in the north resent the big brother of Asia that China enjoys. Koreans are a proud people. There is a scholar from Princeton whose specialty is the relationship between north Korea & China. He has dug through countless papers released from the former USSR that sheds light on this relationship. He cautions that today's leaders be careful in their estimations of how much China can influence or control north Korea. I for one think he caution is worth heeding, especially given the current deadly happenings in Korea. His work has impressed me & introduced me to a concept that I was not aware of. North Korea wants a relationship with the US, more than they want to rely on China


----------



## msmitht (Dec 31, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> This is an interesting comment. Which of the Kwans practiced Daito Ryu?
> 
> There were more than five Kwans involved in the Taekwon-Do unification movement.
> 
> ...



My reference was to the original kwans, which my 1st gm told me there were 5. I had 2 gm's who were young children from northern korea b4 fleeing south to avoid communism and then war against family members and the chinese(korean war).


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## msmitht (Dec 31, 2010)

Japanese ju jitsu, under various names and style differences, was called yawara and then later hapkido & yu do. Now they call it yong moo do and teach it in college.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 31, 2010)

msmitht said:


> My reference was to the original kwans, which my 1st gm told me there were 5. I had 2 gm's who were young children from northern korea b4 fleeing south to avoid communism and then war against family members and the chinese(korean war).


 
Which of those five practiced daito ryu? 

Pax,

Chris


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## msmitht (Dec 31, 2010)

Hapkido came from Daito Ryu. Show me a tkd gm over 60 who is not also a gm of hkd. They were taught at the same schools.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 31, 2010)

msmitht said:


> Hapkido came from Daito Ryu. Show me a tkd gm over 60 who is not also a gm of hkd. They were taught at the same schools.


 
Saying people cross-trained in Hapkido and Taekwon-Do is a lot different than saying "There were 5 kwans and they all practiced a mix of karate, kung fu and diato ryu jiujitsu(or judo)." As far as I know there is only one Taekwon-Do body that formally incorporated Hapkido into its syllabus (a Hapkido lineage that went back to GM Choi, Yong Sul). Others might have done so, but I haven't heard of any. 

I believe Chun, Sang Sup practiced Judo before studying karate but I don't know how much Judo made it into the Choson Yun Moo Kwan (and then the Jidokwan). Byung, In Yoon studied Chuan Fa before training in Shudokan karate but, as far as I am aware, the Chang Moo Kwan schools who show a lot of the Chinese influence are few. 

I'd be very interested in hearing about any Kwans that specifically incorporated Judo, Kung-Fu and/or Daito Ryu into their formal syllabus. 

Pax,

Chris


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## dancingalone (Dec 31, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Saying people cross-trained in Hapkido and Taekwon-Do is a lot different than saying "There were 5 kwans and they all practiced a mix of karate, kung fu and diato ryu jiujitsu(or judo)." As far as I know there is only one Taekwon-Do body that formally incorporated Hapkido into its syllabus (a Hapkido lineage that went back to GM Choi, Yong Sul). Others might have done so, but I haven't heard of any.
> 
> I believe Chun, Sang Sup practiced Judo before studying karate but I don't know how much Judo made it into the Choson Yun Moo Kwan (and then the Jidokwan). Byung, In Yoon studied Chuan Fa before training in Shudokan karate but, as far as I am aware, the Chang Moo Kwan schools who show a lot of the Chinese influence are few.
> 
> ...



I don't know of any KKW-affiliated schools that still do the Byung, In Yoon chuan fa forms.  You can check out the Chayon-ryu (Kim, Pyung Soo) and Pasa-ryu (Rhee, Kang) groups which do retain these forms, but obviously they are in their own little worlds.

As for the Daito-ryu/Hapkido connection with the respective kwan curriculums, my thought is that it could not have been too strong or too interrelated, if at all.  I've no nothing to prove it however, other than the circumstantial evidence that General Choi recruited a hapkido master to supplement the self-defense offerings in his system.

On the other hand, time and time again, I've read accounts that the early Koreans before, during, and after the formation period of TKD did commonly study judo as a group.  I would guess that the likelihood of some judo influence making it into TKD is higher than Daito-ryu Aiki-jutsu.


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## puunui (Dec 31, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Saying people cross-trained in Hapkido and Taekwon-Do is a lot different than saying "There were 5 kwans and they all practiced a mix of karate, kung fu and diato ryu jiujitsu(or judo)." As far as I know there is only one Taekwon-Do body that formally incorporated Hapkido into its syllabus (a Hapkido lineage that went back to GM Choi, Yong Sul). Others might have done so, but I haven't heard of any.



GM PARK Hae Man learned a little Hapkido from GM JI Han Jae when both were martial arts instructors at the Bluehouse. GM Park took many of the kicking techniques and some of the hand techniques incorporated it into Taekwondo. Mainly you can see it demonstrations, even today. I watch Taekwondo demonstrations and I am always thinking to myself, "that's Hapkido, this is Hapkido." And that WTF Hoshinsool book that we were talking about earlier is filled with Hapkido techniques. 

So no, Master CHUNG Kee Tae (or is it KEE, Tae Chung?) wasn't the only person to incorporate Hapkido into Taekwondo. 




chrispillertkd said:


> Byung, In Yoon studied Chuan Fa before training in Shudokan karate but, as far as I am aware, the Chang Moo Kwan schools who show a lot of the Chinese influence are few.



His name is YOON Byung In, not In Yoon BYUNG, although you are free to believe his last name is Byung if you want to.


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## puunui (Dec 31, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I don't know of any KKW-affiliated schools that still do the Byung, In Yoon chuan fa forms.



GM Hwa CHONG and GM Han Won LEE still teach them. GM Lee sent me his 7th Dan test video, and he was doing Jang Kwon in it. And every time I see Han Won, we do GM YOON Byung In's mongolian arm wrestling. He just asked me to be a judge at his next black belt test and I'm thinking about going. Haven't seen his new house yet. His old one, or the last one he had, which was in the same neighborhood as Jay Warwick's, was fabulous, but I heard this new one is even more so.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Dec 31, 2010)

Glenn, you're just as helpful and pleasant as ever, brother. Not to worry, I'll point out the next typo you make, too 

Pax and Merry Christmas,

Chris


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## puunui (Dec 31, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Glenn, you're just as helpful and pleasant as ever, brother. Not to worry, I'll point out the next typo you make, too
> 
> Pax and Merry Christmas,
> 
> Chris




No problem kid. And Happy New Year. Christmas passed about a week ago.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 31, 2010)

puunui said:


> Christmas passed about a week ago.


Actually CHRISTmas is more than a single HOLYday for many people, including chrispillertkd. Many, myself included, feel that the CHRISTmas season is something that should last longer than even the holiday season that it occurs in, like all year long!
May the joy of the CHRISTmas Season last throughout all of 2011, helping to make this new year a better year for all!


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 1, 2011)

puunui said:


> GM Hwa CHONG and GM Han Won LEE still teach them. GM Lee sent me his 7th Dan test video, and he was doing Jang Kwon in it. And every time I see Han Won, we do GM YOON Byung In's mongolian arm wrestling. He just asked me to be a judge at his next black belt test and I'm thinking about going. Haven't seen his new house yet. His old one, or the last one he had, which was in the same neighborhood as Jay Warwick's, was fabulous, but I heard this new one is even more so.





So for his KKW 7th dan test he did a non-KKW form?


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 1, 2011)

puunui said:


> No problem kid. And Happy New Year. Christmas passed about a week ago.


 
You are quite incorrect, Glenn. Christmas lasts from Christmas Eve until the Epiphany. I'm sure you were just trying to be your usual helpful self, though 

Thanks for calling me "kid," too, even though I haven't been one in a rather long time :lol:

Pax and Merry Christmas,

Chris


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 1, 2011)

Come on guys.  Use the ignore function if you cannot be civil to one another.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Jan 1, 2011)

bluewaveschool said:


> So for his KKW 7th dan test he did a non-KKW form?


 
How is this possible since they do not even recognize that form anymore at the KKW?


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## terryl965 (Jan 1, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Come on guys. Use the ignore function if you cannot be civil to one another.
> 
> Daniel


 

Come on Daniel that would take all the fun out of the TKD section


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## dowan50 (Jan 1, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Did you read or hear the report of the Embassy communications released by the Wiki Leaks between the US and China? China states that it no longer considers the need of North Korea as a buffer zone and would welcome a reunification of the south and north to be a good future economic boon for China/
> 
> I wonder if that public communication release and our air craft carrier with nuclear weapons had something to do with the North not retaliating in response to the South's latest war games?
> I also see a more hostile nature in the South related to calls for retaliation for the actions of the North compared to when I was there in 2008 and they cut the phone lines because they wanted the South to pay and install new communication equipment for them and I was shocked at how all the press and public comments were conciliatory sighting the need for open cooperation in the hopes of reuniting families?
> ...


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## leadleg (Jan 1, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> How is this possible since they do not even recognize that form anymore at the KKW?


 Testing at my school is doing all the KKW requirements,Plus.
 Part of the *plus* for instance is fourteen extra forms for first Dan,or poom.


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## terryl965 (Jan 1, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Testing at my school is doing all the KKW requirements,Plus.
> Part of the *plus* for instance is fourteen extra forms for first Dan,or poom.


 
Ok I understand at a school testing but at te KKW they only recognize the Tae Gueks for promotion. So how can somebody test there with another set of forms?


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## dancingalone (Jan 1, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Ok I understand at a school testing but at te KKW they only recognize the Tae Gueks for promotion. So how can somebody test there with another set of forms?



This is for a 7th dan promotion test, right?  Without reading any official requirements, I would expect to see something demoed other than a paint-by-numbers act at that level.


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## leadleg (Jan 1, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Ok I understand at a school testing but at te KKW they only recognize the Tae Gueks for promotion. So how can somebody test there with another set of forms?


 Since it is at 7th dan I suspect he tested in the US, you are correct with the testings held at KKW with the taegueks and yudanja forms.
 I also think at school testings it is common to ask if there is anything else you would like to show us question after each category.


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## terryl965 (Jan 1, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> This is for a 7th dan promotion test, right? Without reading any official requirements, I would expect to see something demoed other than a paint-by-numbers act at that level.


 
But a demo would not be a real componant of the requirements, I agree with what you are saying but dis-agree about what would be part of the actual test.


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## dancingalone (Jan 1, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> But a demo would not be a real componant of the requirements, I agree with what you are saying but dis-agree about what would be part of the actual test.



That's fine.  You gotta go by whatever the rules say, whatever they are.

That said, I would think a demonstration of a historical chuan fa form from the kwan era would be a fine display at something as heady as a 7th dan promotional test.  When a person attempts a masters or Ph.D. degree, they generally have to expand knowledge in their field through original research.  I could see much of the same happening in martial arts by delving into other sources like chuan fa, etc.


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## terryl965 (Jan 1, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> That's fine. You gotta go by whatever the rules say, whatever they are.
> 
> That said, I would think a demonstration of a historical chuan fa form from the kwan era would be a fine display at something as heady as a 7th dan promotional test. When a person attempts a masters or Ph.D. degree, they generally have to expand knowledge in their field through original research. I could see much of the same happening in martial arts by delving into other sources like chuan fa, etc.


 
Again I see your point and would agree if it was here in the states, but the op said he tested at the KKW and that would not be accepted in that area. I can only go by what I have been told since I am never going to get to 7th for some time frame.


----------



## dancingalone (Jan 1, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Again I see your point and would agree if it was here in the states, but the op said he tested at the KKW and that would not be accepted in that area. I can only go by what I have been told since I am never going to get to 7th for some time frame.



I'm holding out for the next KKW integration program.  Maybe I can get inducted in at my current karate rank then which is substantially higher than than the paltry ee-dan I earned in TKD back in the eighties.  



JK.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 1, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> Did you read or hear the report of the Embassy communications released by the Wiki Leaks between the US and China? China states that it no longer considers the need of North Korea as a buffer zone and would welcome a reunification of the south and north to be a good future economic boon for China/
> 
> I wonder if that public communication release and our air craft carrier with nuclear weapons had something to do with the North not retaliating in response to the South's latest war games?
> I also see a more hostile nature in the South related to calls for retaliation for the actions of the North compared to when I was there in 2008 and they cut the phone lines because they wanted the South to pay and install new communication equipment for them and I was shocked at how all the press and public comments were conciliatory sighting the need for open cooperation in the hopes of reuniting families?
> ...


Yes I read that China said that they would accept a unified Korea under the leadership of Seoul, as that would expand trading with the Koreans as south Korea is a good trading partner & the north is a headache.
I can see them also saying US troops would have to withdraw eventually as well.

The current south Korean President Lee is center right & ran on a hard line policy towards the north. It is a very complex & potentially deadly situation with no easy answers. I say easier to campaign on then to actually govern over.

I wonder if the ITF-NK will be able to hold their 2011 world championships there, scheduled for September


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 1, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> That said, I would think a demonstration of a historical chuan fa form from the kwan era would be a fine display at something as heady as a 7th dan promotional test.  When a person attempts a masters or Ph.D. degree, they generally have to expand knowledge in their field through original research.  I could see much of the same happening in martial arts by delving into other sources like chuan fa, etc.


Good point & I agree, but the PhD degree requires a doctoral dissertation that contributes new knowledge, so maybe that would translate to creating a new pattern, rather than simply doing a older one rarely performed today


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## dancingalone (Jan 1, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Good point & I agree, but the PhD degree requires a doctoral dissertation that contributes new knowledge, so maybe that would translate to creating a new pattern, rather than simply doing a older one rarely performed today



Perhaps.  Or an explanation of the lessons within the old set that fit into the framework of whatever the KKW is about technically today.  As a 'traditionalist', I'd actually respect that type of research more than inventing yet another set of patterns.

This is going out on a tangent, but in general I don't think TKD groups need more forms.  What they need is for their rank-and-file practitioners/teachers to know their forms better from a pedagogy perspective.  Since the various hyung/poomsae/tul are related to older sets from karate and gong fu, I think it's actually a great idea to understand what the purpose of the similar movements are within karate or gong fu.  Then what is done with the knowledge from there is up to the individual.


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 1, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I'm holding out for the next KKW integration program.  Maybe I can get inducted in at my current karate rank then which is substantially higher than than the paltry ee-dan I earned in TKD back in the eighties.
> 
> 
> 
> JK.



Once we get in, we'll use a skip dan and get even higher.


----------



## dancingalone (Jan 1, 2011)

That's not too far off the mark.  I have a friend in KKW TKD who said he should be able to get me a skip to 2nd dan right off the bat if I ever wanted to switch to taekwondo.  Then regular promotions at the minimum time-in-between promotion periods.


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## leadleg (Jan 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> That's not too far off the mark. I have a friend in KKW TKD who said he should be able to get me a skip to 2nd dan right off the bat if I ever wanted to switch to taekwondo. Then regular promotions at the minimum time-in-between promotion periods.


 You could do that and then the two of you could talk about integrity with all your new students.


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## leadleg (Jan 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Again I see your point and would agree if it was here in the states, but the op said he tested at the KKW and that would not be accepted in that area. I can only go by what I have been told since I am never going to get to 7th for some time frame.


 I think you should re-read the post from Puunui,it does not mention testing at KKW.The post answers a question about KKW schools not the KKW itself. The master he is speaking of has a school in Colorado.


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## leadleg (Jan 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Perhaps. Or an explanation of the lessons within the old set that fit into the framework of whatever the KKW is about technically today. As a 'traditionalist', I'd actually respect that type of research more than inventing yet another set of patterns.
> 
> This is going out on a tangent, but in general I don't think TKD groups need more forms. What they need is for their rank-and-file practitioners/teachers to know their forms better from a pedagogy perspective. Since the various hyung/poomsae/tul are related to older sets from karate and gong fu, I think it's actually a great idea to understand what the purpose of the similar movements are within karate or gong fu. Then what is done with the knowledge from there is up to the individual.


 Most of the taekwondoin I know do understand the purpose behind there movements. Actually some may even try to read more than there is. Unless you are speaking of children,who do forms from following along.Do you practice with many TKD groups?


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## dancingalone (Jan 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> You could do that and then the two of you could talk about integrity with all your new students.



Don't get your panties in a wad.  Besides, apparently the rules allow for such, if put forth by someone at 4th dan or higher, do they not?  If so, I do not know what your objection would be other than with your promotional guidelines itself.


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## dancingalone (Jan 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Most of the taekwondoin I know do understand the purpose behind there movements. Actually some may even try to read more than there is. Unless you are speaking of children,who do forms from following along.Do you practice with many TKD groups?



They probably understand the base meaning of the movements according to current doctrine, whether that be KKW or whatever TKD group you prefer to reference.  I doubt most understand the context of the movements from an inheritance perspective seen through the lens of parent arts like karate or gong fu.  I'll use the analogy of a palimpsest, where an old  manuscript has been scraped of the prior writing and then is reused.  Occasionally, some of the old text is still legible, yet it's impossible to obtain all of the old message since it has been discarded, changed, or written over entirely.  This is what I refer to with regard to patterns.  The patterns practiced in TKD undeniably have the stamp of other arts all over them, yet the actual sequence of movements have been changed and reshuffled.  Thus, it's unlikely that anyone would have the same perspective as a practitioner of the parent art without intentionally seeking it out to learn it.

And yep, I have been in the martial arts a long time.  Spent 10 years doing nothing but traveling the world to study various systems thanks to a trust fund.  I've spent 2 semesters with exposure to a KKW 9th dan and his senior students both at college as well as at his dojang where my prior experience in other styles was respected.  I've seen many expressions of TKD.  Don't take it personally if my perspective is different than yours.


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## leadleg (Jan 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Don't get your panties in a wad. Besides, apparently the rules allow for such, if put forth by someone at 4th dan or higher, do they not? If so, I do not know what your objection would be other than with your promotional guidelines itself.


 I am a gentleman,I do not wear panties,and the ones I do have I keep folded nicely on my dresser. Regardless of what some people suggest,no it is not ok for anyone no matter what rank to request advancement for anyone who does not fullfill the requirements. Does it happen? I suppose it does as it is only one's integrity or other moral values to keep such things in check.
 Could it happen in any art,I think so.Why would anyone want a belt they know they do not deserve and why would a high dan want to cheapen their own line of students by handing out these belts to fakes? I don't know if you are trolling or you have a friend who is of low moral character,but I am not angry at all,just sad at the attempt you make  here.


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## leadleg (Jan 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> They probably understand the base meaning of the movements according to current doctrine, whether that be KKW or whatever TKD group you prefer to reference. I doubt most understand the context of the movements from an inheritance perspective seen through the lens of parent arts like karate or gong fu. I'll use the analogy of a palimpsest, where an old manuscript has been scraped of the prior writing and then is reused. Occasionally, some of the old text is still legible, yet it's impossible to obtain all of the old message since it has been discarded, changed, or written over entirely. This is what I refer to with regard to patterns. The patterns practiced in TKD undeniably have the stamp of other arts all over them, yet the actual sequence of movements have been changed and reshuffled. Thus, it's unlikely that anyone would have the same perspective as a practitioner of the parent art without intentionally seeking it out to learn it.
> 
> And yep, I have been in the martial arts a long time. Spent 10 years doing nothing but traveling the world to study various systems thanks to a trust fund. I've spent 2 semesters with exposure to a KKW 9th dan and his senior students both at college as well as at his dojang where my prior experience in other styles was respected. I've seen many expressions of TKD. Don't take it personally if my perspective is different than yours.


 I too have been around a long time, I have a lot more than a couple of semesters? doing TKD and other arts as well, at my age I do not worry so much about years of exposure as much as I do how much the person absorbed during those years. I have studied bunkai and unlike some I do noy see it as mysterious. I see from many of your post's lots of questions someone with expeirience should have answers to.
 I am close to 60 and learned my first kicking from my father when he returned from the Korean war, I took some training in shotokan  when I was a little older,and I was exposed to judo as a child also.I would hardly say that was MA experience and count my years from there. I also have taken seminars in many arts over the years but would not say I have eperience in those arts just because I took a seminar. 
 I realise we have different perspectives, and I certainly do noy take anything on any BBS personally. I would say that no matter what dojang you go to train at you will be respected for your prior experience, or lack of,Taekwondoin are like that.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 2, 2011)

bluewaveschool said:


> Once we get in, we'll use a skip dan and get even higher.



I'm pretty sure that the KKW doesn't just issue skip-dans without some criterion.  I've been practicing in some fashion long enough to warrant a higher grade than I currently am, but I have not been in my current grade long enough to warrant a two-dan skip.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> That's not too far off the mark.  I have a friend in KKW TKD who said he should be able to get me a skip to 2nd dan right off the bat if I ever wanted to switch to taekwondo.  Then regular promotions at the minimum time-in-between promotion periods.


Aren't you already second dan?  Or at least first in KKW?  If you're a KKW ildan, that wouldn't be a skip but simply a test for idan.  

Daniel


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## dowan50 (Jan 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> They probably understand the base meaning of the movements according to current doctrine, whether that be KKW or whatever TKD group you prefer to reference.  I doubt most understand the context of the movements from an inheritance perspective seen through the lens of parent arts like karate or gong fu.  I'll use the analogy of a palimpsest, where an old  manuscript has been scraped of the prior writing and then is reused.  Occasionally, some of the old text is still legible, yet it's impossible to obtain all of the old message since it has been discarded, changed, or written over entirely.  This is what I refer to with regard to patterns.  The patterns practiced in TKD undeniably have the stamp of other arts all over them, yet the actual sequence of movements have been changed and reshuffled.  Thus, it's unlikely that anyone would have the same perspective as a practitioner of the parent art without intentionally seeking it out to learn it.
> 
> And yep, I have been in the martial arts a long time.  Spent 10 years doing nothing but traveling the world to study various systems thanks to a trust fund.  I've spent 2 semesters with exposure to a KKW 9th dan and his senior students both at college as well as at his dojang where my prior experience in other styles was respected.  I've seen many expressions of TKD.  Don't take it personally if my perspective is different than yours.



Thank you yours is one of the better explanations with regards to applications of the movements in a more non threatening propositions to those who possibly do not have open minds to the fact that tkd was developed from other origins. The point being doing the basics and building strength and muscle memory is good but eventually all art regardless of style goes back to central origins of 8 or 10 thousand years ago we are all one if we just go back far enough?

A group of us prominent students of a pioneer TKD GM became concerned that our self defense skills were not truly as good as could be when exposed to other accomplished people on the street and other areas. One of our individuals was even a prominent World champion and their was much upset and stress from our GM even in later years when one of our core group was coming great distance to stay and train with me his fear being I was going to give loyalty to another GM and Style after much time and assurances that nothing would change between us he was more open minded even in later years I noticed a pressure points book on his table he even allowed seminars to be taught by one of the main GM's we were studying under in his main Dojang and they became friends. One of our group has traveled twice to China with one of the GM's in our secondary style.

For my part I did not meet any TKD people in the 80/90's with any knowledge of the inherited applications. I was taught two approaches one is you must have an open mind or unlearn what you have learned. Another explanation has been stated how many masters died in 60 years of teaching being outlawed by the Japanese and the knowledge was lost and what was being showed publicly could not be interpreted by unwanted or unintentional audience but miss information and myth and legend later became a fixed tradition and explanation. Example one day our GM was telling me about Crane Stance and he said it was developed by the founders watching a crane eat it would attack the fish when it was standing on one leg? Well now how is that bit of information going to save my life?? I love this mans as my father and would never argue but in fact it is a mapping point to remind me of angle and direction on hitting the other person's leg with a specific part of my foot one of four primary PP points to the knee. I am seeing more people in TKD every year that are beginning to embrace this even publically but is it main stream no I think not. It has been discussed if you want your students to become more interested in forms then make it more fun for them by exposing them to the inherited applications? I teach what ever a person is ready for based on age and need. 

On the other side seems now some in Kempo and other styles will say some of the TKD people who have gained this knowledge and skill set are putting to much meaning in to TKD movements that was never there. Well the Global GM's in Kyusho Jitsu would disagree saying there is no single only explanation of any movement but only multiple possibilities depending on what targets of opportunities present themselves. Frankly in Olympic Sparring now that the gloves are off if they would train their hands properly and knew the lung points and others they could punch right through that chest protector and do some real damage at least combined with feet we would see more knock outs.

Bottom line is use what works for you. I think a hard line drawn in the sand of thinking only one way leads to a vision of the world is flat?

Thanks for your post


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## dancingalone (Jan 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Aren't you already second dan?  Or at least first in KKW?  If you're a KKW ildan, that wouldn't be a skip but simply a test for idan.
> 
> Daniel



I have an ee-dan in TKD but it is not KKW.


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## puunui (Jan 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Again I see your point and would agree if it was here in the states, but the op said he tested at the KKW and that would not be accepted in that area. I can only go by what I have been told since I am never going to get to 7th for some time frame.




I wrote the "op" and I never said that he tested at the Kukkiwon.


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## dancingalone (Jan 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> I am a gentleman,I do not wear panties,and the ones I do have I keep folded nicely on my dresser. Regardless of what some people suggest,no it is not ok for anyone no matter what rank to request advancement for anyone who does not fullfill the requirements. Does it happen? I suppose it does as it is only one's integrity or other moral values to keep such things in check.
> Could it happen in any art,I think so.Why would anyone want a belt they know they do not deserve and why would a high dan want to cheapen their own line of students by handing out these belts to fakes? I don't know if you are trolling or you have a friend who is of low moral character,but I am not angry at all,just sad at the attempt you make  here.




Actually, what you should find sad is how you are so quick to read misdeed into others.

True or false?  The KKW permits a skip dan, even for someone who does not currently hold a KKW chodan.  If true, then you have no reason at all to object or imply that my friend had made an improper gesture towards me, since you cannot know his intent in offering it, nor mine in declining it.  Nor do you know or not whether the offer was conditional upon meeting all KKW technical requirements, yet you seem to have inferred that something shady was discussed since you brought up the term 'integrity'.

Perhaps a chill pill for you is in order?


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## terryl965 (Jan 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> I wrote the "op" and I never said that he tested at the Kukkiwon.


 
You are correct, I assumed it was at the KKW since must Korean born go there for such a test. My bad and I will not assume next time but ask the question first. So if I may where did he test for his 7th?


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## dancingalone (Jan 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> I too have been around a long time, I have a lot more than a couple of semesters? doing TKD and other arts as well, at my age I do not worry so much about years of exposure as much as I do how much the person absorbed during those years.



Well, I wonder what you have absorbed then, given the rather awkward situation you've placed yourself in by making certain assumptions about others from a very limited MT window.



leadleg said:


> I have studied bunkai and unlike some I do noy see it as mysterious. I see from many of your post's lots of questions someone with expeirience should have answers to.



Congrats?  



leadleg said:


> I see from many of your post's lots of questions someone with expeirience should have answers to.



I think you are one of those literal minded people who thinks every opportunity for discussion must mean the writer is asking for personal guidance rather than facilitating an opportunity for others (and yes occasionally for oneself).



leadleg said:


> I am close to 60 and learned my first kicking from my father when he returned from the Korean war, I took some training in shotokan  when I was a little older,and I was exposed to judo as a child also.I would hardly say that was MA experience and count my years from there. I also have taken seminars in many arts over the years but would not say I have eperience in those arts just because I took a seminar.
> I realise we have different perspectives, and I certainly do noy take anything on any BBS personally. I would say that no matter what dojang you go to train at you will be respected for your prior experience, or lack of,Taekwondoin are like that.



I would suggest re-examining yourself then.  Your comment about my friend and I lacking integrity was neither gentlemanly nor germane nor even sound in logic.


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## puunui (Jan 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> So if I may where did he test for his 7th?




Either in Michigan or Colorado. It was in front of his instructor, USTU Past President Hwa CHONG.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I have an ee-dan in TKD but it is not KKW.



So essentially, you would be testing for second and would need to meet all of the KKW requirements for second dan.  Wouldn't see why this would be a problem; you either know the material and can execute it, and pass, or you don't and you fail.

Would this be considered a skip dan?  Given that you already hold a second dan.  I always thought of skip dans as being for those who had been in grade for long enough to cover more than one grade (no factual reason; just the impression that I had).  

Daniel


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## leadleg (Jan 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Well, I wonder what you have absorbed then, given the rather awkward situation you've placed yourself in by making certain assumptions about others from a very limited MT window.
> I do not see anything awkward here except your being upset
> 
> 
> ...


 If you are thinking of taking a BB or two and do not know the criteria I would question your integrity,if your friend is selling or giving out BB's to undeserving people then yes I would think that without question he has little integrity.Show me the lack of logic here.


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## dancingalone (Jan 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> If you are thinking of taking a BB or two and do not know the criteria I would question your integrity,if your friend is selling or giving out BB's to undeserving people then yes I would think that without question he has little integrity.Show me the lack of logic here.



I shouldn't have to illuminate it for you.  You made assumptions in your mind that 1) my friend would promote me in his style without me meeting the requirements and 2) that I would accept the promotion.

Thy foot is in thy mouth.  Remove it.


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## dancingalone (Jan 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So essentially, you would be testing for second and would need to meet all of the KKW requirements for second dan.  Wouldn't see why this would be a problem; you either know the material and can execute it, and pass, or you don't and you fail.


Correct!



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Would this be considered a skip dan?  Given that you already hold a second dan.  I always thought of skip dans as being for those who had been in grade for long enough to cover more than one grade (no factual reason; just the impression that I had).
> 
> Daniel



Perhaps I am using the 'skip dan' term wrongly.  I thought it applied as I do not hold any KKW credentials at all, thus making the chodan rank a skipped one.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 2, 2011)

Come on guys.  There are already enough terse exchanges going on.  If you have a question about the integrity of something, ask the poster first.  If someone is questioning the integrity of something that you have posted, simply explain it first.

There is a reason that I ask first before judging other's posts.  Saves a lot of unnecessary hassle.

Daniel


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## leadleg (Jan 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Actually, what you should find sad is how you are so quick to read misdeed into others.
> 
> True or false? *The KKW permits a skip dan, even for someone who does not currently hold a KKW chodan.* If true, then you have no reason at all to object or imply that my friend had made an improper gesture towards me, since you cannot know his intent in offering it, nor mine in declining it. Nor do you know or not whether the offer was conditional upon meeting all KKW technical requirements, yet you seem to have inferred that something shady was discussed since you brought up the term 'integrity'.
> 
> Perhaps a chill pill for you is in order?


 False,you must know the required curriculum, the skip dan is for those with the required time in but missed the advancment for some reason.It is allowed 1 time only. 
Secondly you said he would advance you at every oppurtunity,you are backpeddling here, and again I am not in need of a chill pill,I am quite calm.


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## dancingalone (Jan 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> False,you must know the required curriculum, the skip dan is for those with the required time in but missed the advancment for some reason.It is allowed 1 time only.



You are digging a deeper hole for yourself.  

Answer this:  is it possible for someone outside the KKW to grade immediately to 2nd dan, skipping the 1st dan rank, because they have trained outside KKW walls during their entire career?  

Obviously the technical requirements for the rank need to be met both in knowledge and whatever time-in-grade or time-between-promotion there is.  Odd that you assume others must be engaging in misdeed as a matter of course.



leadleg said:


> Secondly you said he would advance you at every oppurtunity,you are backpeddling here,



How so?  I am an excellent martial artist.  I have never failed any promotional examination, in a variety of martial arts.  I wouldn't intend to start failing if I were to take up the KKW battery.  All I said is that my friend intended to promote me at each minimum period, something that frankly shouldn't be too shocking as I imagine the practice is common.  Again, YOU choose to read something negative into it, rather than it being there.



leadleg said:


> and again I am not in need of a chill pill,I am quite calm



Then you need a censor or a firewall between your brain and your fingers.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 2, 2011)

I restate:



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Come on guys.  There are already enough terse exchanges going on.  If you have a question about the integrity of something, ask the poster first.  If someone is questioning the integrity of something that you have posted, simply explain it first.
> 
> There is a reason that I ask first before judging other's posts.  Saves a lot of unnecessary hassle.
> 
> Daniel


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## dancingalone (Jan 2, 2011)

Appreciate it, Daniel.  I will let my previous responses speak for themselves, unless I am impugned again.


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## leadleg (Jan 2, 2011)

If you know the criteria,and its not much as KKW minimum standards,you should be able to *test *for 1st dan, if you have an instructor who feels you meet the reqirements for 2nd and you have a certificate from another tkd org. that shows a date more than 1 year from this time then yes you could get to 2nd dan. If you meet the criteria again in the required time in ,yes you could test again.  
You are correct that I made an assumption from the two previous posts to yours.
 I hope you do become KKW certified as I am sure all Taekwondoin would benefit from your joining our ranks.


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## dancingalone (Jan 2, 2011)

Thank you.


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## terryl965 (Jan 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> Either in Michigan or Colorado. It was in front of his instructor, USTU Past President Hwa CHONG.


 
Thank you


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## puunui (Jan 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> The patterns practiced in TKD undeniably have the stamp of other arts all over them, yet the actual sequence of movements have been changed and reshuffled.




About ten years ago, probably less than that, one of my objectives was to go back and study the old Palgwae poomsae and Pyongahn hyung, as well as revisited my Shotokan forms, and join my friend's Shorin Ryu school to understand the evolution. I mentioned this to GM Park and he said there was no need, that all I needed to do was practice the Taeguek and yudanja poomsae, as well as his Kibon exercises.


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## dancingalone (Jan 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> About ten years ago, probably less than that, one of my objectives was to go back and study the old Palgwae poomsae and Pyongahn hyung, as well as revisited my Shotokan forms, and join my friend's Shorin Ryu school to understand the evolution. I mentioned this to GM Park and he said there was no need, that all I needed to do was practice the Taeguek and yudanja poomsae, as well as his Kibon exercises.



It depends on your goals.  From a discrete technique by technique basis, sure, there's no need to practice the older patterns if you already know one of the newer sets.  A knife hand is a knife hand is a knife hand.

However, the sequencing of movements become important if you regard kata as holding important lessons for compound movement.  An example of this might be a simultaneous evasion of a strike with an entry past the attacker's guard, concluding with a set up strike of your own and then a fight ending tech.  If the 'original' pattern describes this set of movement as 1-2-3-4 and then a TKD pattern reassembles it to be 3-2-1-4 instead, the lesson obviously becomes altered too and the meaning is lost.

Now 3-2-1-4 might very well be something valuable in of itself too.  Or it may not be.  What we know for sure is that it's not 1-2-3-4 and thus you won't be learning what 1-2-3-4 is supposed to teach at all.


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## puunui (Jan 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> False,you must know the required curriculum, the skip dan is for those with the required time in but missed the advancment for some reason.It is allowed 1 time only.




You don't need to know the required curriculum, just someone who will submit the recommendation form. You can also skip from no dan to dan higher than 1st dan. And normally it is allowed one time only, but they made an exception at the US Open kukkiwon special test.


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## puunui (Jan 2, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Now 3-2-1-4 might very well be something valuable in of itself too.  Or it may not be.  What we know for sure is that it's not 1-2-3-4 and thus you won't be learning what 1-2-3-4 is supposed to teach at all.




That is one of the things I wanted to go over, where it is 3214 and where it is 1234.


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## dancingalone (Jan 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> That is one of the things I wanted to go over, where it is 3214 and where it is 1234.



I'm having oodles of fun trying to translate karate bunkai onto the Chang Hon forms.  I'm finding that this active translation and revision process actually makes me more knowledgeable about my original material.  And I am running into enough obstacles to know that not all bunkai can be converted over.  You can teach these exceptions in isolation as standalone applications, but it's more confusing than it is worth to try to link them to a specific passage in the Choi forms.


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## terryl965 (Jan 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> You don't need to know the required curriculum, just someone who will submit the recommendation form. You can also skip from no dan to dan higher than 1st dan. And normally it is allowed one time only, but they made an exception at the US Open kukkiwon special test.


 
The US Open KKW test was a major miss up and it probaly will stop that from ever happening again. People with no KKW rank was asking for a 5th, 6th and 7th Dan just because they never recieved any type of KKW certificate. There was even people there that did not even know the proper poomsae.

Puunui do you believe any other org maybe able to step in and correct the wrong that happen down the road?


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## puunui (Jan 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Puunui do you believe any other org maybe able to step in and correct the wrong that happen down the road?




I'm having my doubts. I think certain individuals or groups can be helped, because of their respectful and sincere attitudes towards the Kukkiwon, but the rest are pretty much on their own. I know I don't want to help them and if I don't, then the probability is very low that anyone else will want to.


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## leadleg (Jan 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> You don't need to know the required curriculum, just someone who will submit the recommendation form. You can also skip from no dan to dan higher than 1st dan. And normally it is allowed one time only, but they made an exception at the US Open kukkiwon special test.


If you were to go to the KKW to test,and you did not know the requirements would you pass?


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## puunui (Jan 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> If you were to go to the KKW to test,and you did not know the requirements would you pass?




I guess non-Korean practitioners who live outside of Korea could go and test at the Kukkiwon for ranks lower than 8th Dan, but it is rare. For most, especially for 2nd Dan, practitioners get promoted via recommendation signed by their instructor. Isn't that how you promote your students?


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## leadleg (Jan 2, 2011)

Of course I recommend if the requirements are met,when I have someone join from an ITF or ATA style they may wear the rank they come with but must eventually earn their KKW by doing the requirements. 
When I attended the instructor training course there was no provision for recommendation without at least the rudimentary knowledge of the forms. 
What I feel you are suggesting is that there are no reasons for the requirements and that anyone over 4th should be recommending any praticioner of any style,  KKW.
While you say this is the intent of the pioneers I would say it is not the intent of the KKW,otherwise it would be set up to accept any forms. 
In fact it sounds as if you would hand out KKW just to have members regardless of the KKW standards.
I find that the students I have coming from various tkd backgrounds have no problem learning the KKW forms, not perfecting but knowing the moves in about one year,averaging three times a week and practicing at home.What would be the point of rushing that along?


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## puunui (Jan 2, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Of course I recommend if the requirements are met,when I have someone join from an ITF or ATA style they may wear the rank they come with but must eventually earn their KKW by doing the requirements.
> When I attended the instructor training course there was no provision for recommendation without at least the rudimentary knowledge of the forms.
> What I feel you are suggesting is that there are no reasons for the requirements and that anyone over 4th should be recommending any praticioner of any style,  KKW.
> While you say this is the intent of the pioneers I would say it is not the intent of the KKW,otherwise it would be set up to accept any forms.
> ...



Did you read my three stages of unification post? You are looking at things from a dojang perspective. Nothing wrong with that. My perspective and focus is different.


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## leadleg (Jan 2, 2011)

Yes I understand your prospective on that, and I could see the KKW superiors wanting to bring in all the bb's from an org, then get them on track. I do believe though that if the KKW wanted to bring in any and everyone it would have made provisions for all forms/poomse,instead it has set up specific requirements. 
I feel as though you are relating to this board that KKW does not care about the very requirements they created.In general you won't find many KKW instructors giving out KKW with no knowledge of the forms.


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## terryl965 (Jan 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> I'm having my doubts. I think certain individuals or groups can be helped, because of their respectful and sincere attitudes towards the Kukkiwon, but the rest are pretty much on their own. I know I don't want to help them and if I don't, then the probability is very low that anyone else will want to.


 
I thought you was looking for TKD to become one and everyone helping and teaching each other to get on that right track? Why would you not want to make thing better since that is what you have been saying?  People can change there views if the right message is sent out.:asian:


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## leadleg (Jan 2, 2011)

puunui said:


> Did you read my three stages of unification post? You are looking at things from a dojang perspective. Nothing wrong with that. My perspective and focus is different.


 I am glad you are speaking of your perspective, I believe with all the talk about what the pioneers wanted, and the unification it is still your perspective. At one time you may have had the ear of some political players, but at this time the way you speak about the WTF president,the KKW president,and the usat what political clout do you feel you have.Is there anyone at all that would help you achieve these goals or perspectives you have?
 It would be nice if you could show one other person with any political clout who agrees with giving out KKW's wihtout testing's. 
I am just looking for some clarification besides your perspective.


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 2, 2011)

IF the KKW would accept other form sets (Chang Hon) then I'd seriously consider it.  Which really, at the end of the day, a good instructor can watch a form that isn't part of their own personal style and pick out the good and bad performances.  You can arrange the movements a million ways, you can only do a good stance one way.  I don't know KKW forms, but I bet I could judge a performance fairly accurate.  Not sure if Puunui is experienced with the Chang Hon patterns, but I would be fine on him sitting in on a test panel of my class even if he wasn't.


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

leadleg said:


> I am glad you are speaking of your perspective, I believe with all the talk about what the pioneers wanted, and the unification it is still your perspective. At one time you may have had the ear of some political players, but at this time the way you speak about the WTF president,the KKW president,and the usat what political clout do you feel you have.Is there anyone at all that would help you achieve these goals or perspectives you have?
> It would be nice if you could show one other person with any political clout who agrees with giving out KKW's wihtout testing's.
> I am just looking for some clarification besides your perspective.




I already explained it numerous times. If you wish to test your students, go ahead. But a test is not required. All that is required is a recommendation from someone who can make recommendations. 

As for achieving "my" goals, the Kukkiwon and the Chung Do Kwan continue to assist me. Also just look around at all of the 2nd or 3rd generation seniors who have high Kukkiwon dan rank but still do not know or teach the Taeguek or yudanja poomsae. They didn't test for their rank. 

As for ears, I didn't have the pioneer's ear; they had mine. I'm the one doing the listening and they were the ones doing the talking.


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## leadleg (Jan 3, 2011)

What you are saying is you can get away with just a recomendation,the KKW holds exams at all levels of BB.All school owners I know hold exams,as they should if for nothing more than to assure we don't have any high dans running around that do not know the requirements.
 Possibly you don't hold exams and just hand out rank,may be you did not take any exams and that you are politically advanced. 
I personally would not accept rank without testing,although I have seen it done,and have seen some very poor high ranking taekwondoist. 
This is the sort of thing we do not need,the handing out of rank,without the knowledge that the candidate can perform.I have sometimes wondered how did this person ever get through their exam? Possibly you gave them their rank. Why don't you just put your KKW number on the net and let everyone issue their own rank?
 As for the ear,if you were a recorder then I would give more credence to you,as it is once it passes your ears it has to be assimalated through your thought process,what comes out the other side,your perspective of what you were told. 
I appreciate the kwan info and the dates etc you put out also you have my gratitude for helping with the modern history.
 I realise I am beating a dead horse here on this subject of exams,but this buisness of handing out rank is B.S.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 3, 2011)

The integrity of the one doing the recommendation is what keeps the process honest. If that person has poor, low or no integrity then the promotional process can become corrupted.
My understanding the special KKW skip test process was to help make students whole that may not have had the opportunity to test, to get KKW rank or were cheated by never getting the rank promised. I think that on paper this was a laudable goal if of course there was a process in place to fully investigate claims, applications & the candidates training history. This is where I think the process may have fell somewhat short from what I heard as an outsider. I am not sure how many you can test in a mass examination over a short weekend, even if you had a corresponding seminar.
The ITF does not call for a physical test for 7th Dan & above. However these ranks are handled by through ITF Promotion Committee & there are requirements, just not physical ones. But in the end, it always comes down to the personal integrity of those doing the recommendations & signing the applications.


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

leadleg said:


> What you are saying is you can get away with just a recomendation,the KKW holds exams at all levels of BB.All school owners I know hold exams,as they should if for nothing more than to assure we don't have any high dans running around that do not know the requirements.



What in your opinion, is a "high dan"?




leadleg said:


> Possibly you don't hold exams and just hand out rank,may be you did not take any exams and that you are politically advanced.



You might be right. 




leadleg said:


> I personally would not accept rank without testing,although I have seen it done,and have seen some very poor high ranking taekwondoist.



I suppose that is one way to do it, setting the terms, conditions and standards of your own rank promotion. I always felt that sort of thing was up to the person promoting you. 




leadleg said:


> This is the sort of thing we do not need,the handing out of rank,without the knowledge that the candidate can perform.



Why what happens if we do that? Are you some how diminished if someone who you judge unworthy receives a promotion? 




leadleg said:


> I have sometimes wondered how did this person ever get through their exam? Possibly you gave them their rank.



Maybe I did. I've done a lot of promotions over the years, and no doubt you would disapprove and judge harshly those who were promoted. Some of the practitioners I have recommended Kukkiwon promotions to include olympians, olympic medalists, world medalists, an olympic coach, IRs, national team members, national champions, JO champions, junior team members, junior medalists, poomsae national team members, and a whole bunch of participants at USTU and USAT national events over the years. 




leadleg said:


> Why don't you just put your KKW number on the net and let everyone issue their own rank?



Because then all those certificates would come to me and I wouldn't know who to give them to. 




leadleg said:


> As for the ear,if you were a recorder then I would give more credence to you,as it is once it passes your ears it has to be assimalated through your thought process,what comes out the other side,your perspective of what you were told.



It's right in the modern history book, if you don't like my perspective. 




leadleg said:


> I appreciate the kwan info and the dates etc you put out also you have my gratitude for helping with the modern history.



I think I am going to stop doing that. I think I will start treating historical information and perspectives like some people award promotions -- it should only be given out to those who are "worthy". I think I should just let inevitability take its course. 




leadleg said:


> I realise I am beating a dead horse here on this subject of exams,but this buisness of handing out rank is B.S.



Not if rank is meaningless.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> It's right in the modern history book, if you don't like my perspective.


This can be somewhat problematic, as the Modern History contains some mistakes as you label them, as they do not go along with your perspective.


puunui said:


> I think I am going to stop doing that. I think I will start treating historical information and perspectives like some people award promotions -- it should only be given out to those who are "worthy". I think I should just let inevitability take its course.


I hope that you will continue to share the great knowledge that you have, as readers can only benefit, I know I do & would encourage you, a competent, informed TKDin, to continue to do so. Also I would think, (my own view), that it is actually required, as from those who are given much, much is expected. In the realm of the martial arts, it really does come with the territory, don't you think?
Please Sir, continue to share, readers are better for it. This is the way of the martial arts!


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> This can be somewhat problematic, as the Modern History contains some mistakes as you label them, as they do not go along with your perspective.




I mentioned one, about GM NAM Tae Hi's training. He's not in the 1946 promotion photos, so I seriously doubt that he was teaching anyone in 1947. This is confirmed by GM LEE Won Kuk. But the fact that the 1947 stuff is in the Modern History book goes to the point that even GM KANG Won Sik (or more likely GM LEE Kyong Myong, a former ITF member) can't escape from adding in General Choi, which leads to errors. 

There are former ITF people out there who are still alive who can confirm what GM LEE Won Kuk said. GM KANG Suh Chong for example. Someone should go ask him about GM Nam and see what he says about it.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 3, 2011)

I am sure that they did & I know GM Nam was interviewed for a book as well.


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

Here are some photos from the Chung Do Kwan in the 1940's. Can you please point out GM NAM Tae Hi in any of them?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JPoo7HDIu5E/SwXD-yLg02I/AAAAAAAAACE/h5xZxB3pz78/s1600/mr-lee+YMCA.jpg

http://www.tmafitness.com/Portals/0/LiveContent/447/Images/WonKukLee0005.jpg

http://www.hellers.ws/ma/images/mr-lee_700.jpg  (1st promotion test, 1946)

For reference, GM Son is second from the right in the top row, GM Hyun is third from right top row, GM Uhm is third from left in top row, GM Kang is second from right in row second from top, 

http://www.bwmac.com/Portals/0/EarlyChungDoKwan.jpg (2nd promotion test, 1946)


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

leadleg said:


> It would be nice if you could show one other person with any political clout who agrees with giving out KKW's wihtout testing's.




Here is the perspective of GM LEE Chong Woo: 

"The president of a Kwan has the discretionary privilege to award a black belt certificate to someone considered to be a person of excellent character. For this reason, it is strange to dispute this, based on today's standards. People in general tend to think that the awarding of black belts should be according to athletic ability, but it is not exactly so., not does the black belt certificate parallel one's ability. After ten years of learning, many still have terrible skills."


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 3, 2011)

Thanks for linking the pics


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> I mentioned one, about GM NAM Tae Hi's training. He's not in the 1946 promotion photos, so I seriously doubt that he was teaching anyone in 1947. This is confirmed by GM LEE Won Kuk. But the fact that the 1947 stuff is in the Modern History book goes to the point that even GM KANG Won Sik (or more likely GM LEE Kyong Myong, a former ITF member) can't escape from adding in General Choi, which leads to errors.
> 
> There are former ITF people out there who are still alive who can confirm what GM LEE Won Kuk said. GM KANG Suh Chong for example. Someone should go ask him about GM Nam and see what he says about it.




Would it be about the same response GM Son would give?


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

bluewaveschool said:


> Would it be about the same response GM Son would give?



I don't know what GM Son would say. I don't think he's a let's walk down memory lane kind of guy.


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 3, 2011)

It is quite fortunate that you have the opportunities you do to listen to these people, which you already know and acknowledge.  Being not with any org, I don't exactly have a line to talk to those kinds of people.  Plus, I don't know of any living in Kentucky, we aren't exactly a martial arts hub or anything.


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## leadleg (Jan 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> What in your opinion, is a "high dan"?
> 
> 
> the ones you say do not know the requirements nor teach them
> ...


 If rank is meaningless then why all this talk about juniors and their seniors?


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## andyjeffries (Jan 4, 2011)

leadleg said:


> If rank is meaningless then why all this talk about juniors and their seniors?



Because higher rank doesn't necessarily make someone senior.  Koreans judge by noonchi (expertise/presence) and oftentimes you may get a student who grades higher than their instructor, but will always consider the instructor their senior.

My grandmaster asked me a while back when was my Taekwondo birthday (the date I got my first dan) as he said that's the important date.


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 4, 2011)

puunui said:


> Here are some photos from the Chung Do Kwan in the 1940's. Can you please point out GM NAM Tae Hi in any of them?
> 
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JPoo7HDIu5E/SwXD-yLg02I/AAAAAAAAACE/h5xZxB3pz78/s1600/mr-lee+YMCA.jpg
> 
> ...


 
FWIW, in my article I recount GM Nam stating how he started training in 1946. Does not specify when in 1946.

 Are the photos of Promotions only Dan promotions? 

It also indicates it then took 2.5 years of training for him to reach first Dan. So this may not have been until 1949 or so if we split the time line and figure "In 1946" was around the half way point. 

There is also a photo inthe article from a 1959 demo team listing Nam's training as 14 years. (Perhaps they rounded up.?) This woul still put his start in 1946 or so not making him appear in any BB Photos for a couple of years at least. 

Are any of the photos from 1949 or later?


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## miguksaram (Jan 4, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> Well the Global GM's in Kyusho Jitsu would disagree saying there is no single only explanation of any movement but only multiple possibilities depending on what targets of opportunities present themselves.


Yes, and many of them believe they can knock you out without touching you too.



			
				dowan said:
			
		

> Frankly in Olympic Sparring now that the gloves are off if they would train their hands properly and knew the lung points and others they could punch right through that chest protector and do some real damage at least combined with feet we would see more knock outs.


 
It is a bit more complicated than knowing the lung spot and just hitting it.  Certain times of the day certain meridians are more vulnerable if struck.  Plus your opponent is moving making it difficult to strike the points directly.  I have yet to see any of the Dillman people are any of the Kyoshu Kempo people successfully use their techniques on a resisting MOVING opponent.  All their demos presented have been with willing test dummies standing in one position.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 4, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Because higher rank doesn't necessarily make someone senior.  Koreans judge by noonchi (expertise/presence) and oftentimes you may get a student who grades higher than their instructor, but will always consider the instructor their senior.
> My grandmaster asked me a while back when was my Taekwondo birthday (the date I got my first dan) as he said that's the important date.


Yes for many, age, when they started training, education & station in life all play a part in seniority. In the early days or formative years, the 6 early kwans were all teaching some form of basic karate, with each kwan adding their own influences to that basic fact. So there was not much technical knowledge or nuisances, as that evolved later as their arts evolved & experience gained, when innovation took hold.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 4, 2011)

Also GM Lee Won Kuk gave a 10th Dan to Nam Tae Hi, along with Kang Suh Chong & Uhm Won Gyu


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## puunui (Jan 4, 2011)

bluewaveschool said:


> It is quite fortunate that you have the opportunities you do to listen to these people, which you already know and acknowledge.  Being not with any org, I don't exactly have a line to talk to those kinds of people.  Plus, I don't know of any living in Kentucky, we aren't exactly a martial arts hub or anything.




I live in the most isolated place in the world. The closest land mass is a five hour plane flight away. You live within driving distance of many senior practitioners. We held JOs in Louisville one year because of the pitch that it was the most centralized city nearest the greatest number of americans, with highways forming a sort of hub. Chung Do Kwan GM LEE Kwan Sung lived in Kentucky.


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## puunui (Jan 4, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> In the early days or formative years, the 6 early kwans were all teaching some form of basic karate, with each kwan adding their own influences to that basic fact.




You can say either five or nine, not six. But if you wish to say six in the ITF version of history, then you can do that too. But doing this, you are blending again.


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## puunui (Jan 4, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Also GM Lee Won Kuk gave a 10th Dan to Nam Tae Hi, along with Kang Suh Chong & Uhm Won Gyu




What year was GM Nam promoted to 10th Dan by GM Lee? GM Lee only talked about two 10th Dan, not three.


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## puunui (Jan 4, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> FWIW, in my article I recount GM Nam stating how he started training in 1946. Does not specify when in 1946. Are the photos of Promotions only Dan promotions? It also indicates it then took 2.5 years of training for him to reach first Dan. So this may not have been until 1949 or so if we split the time line and figure "In 1946" was around the half way point. There is also a photo inthe article from a 1959 demo team listing Nam's training as 14 years. (Perhaps they rounded up.?) This woul still put his start in 1946 or so not making him appear in any BB Photos for a couple of years at least. Are any of the photos from 1949 or later?




Maybe he did start in 1946, but stopped after a while. The Chung Do Kwan promotion photos are for all ranks. Everyone in the first photo is wearing a white belt. Do you see anyone that looks like GM Nam in that photo? If he took 2.5 years to get promoted to 1st Dan, that means he flunked one test. There are other photos from 1949, that large one with GM HWANG Kee sitting to the left of GM Lee and GM Ro on his right might be one of them. That photo shows Moo Duk Kwan people in there as well,I wrote a post about the dates of all the tests once.


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