# What Do You Think Are The Most Effective Karate Styles?



## Littledragon

What Do You Think Are The Most Effective Karate Styles?

We are taking an over 3,000 year old art and applying it to reality. Which traditional Karate systems do you think would hold up in a street NHB self-defense situation?


Personally in my opinion I believe the most lethal and effictive Karate styles are Kyokoshin Karate and Shoto-Kan Karate due to the full contact kumite aspects of the art it trains the artist to be aggressive and feel what real contact is.

The only thing I think is a negative about Karate and all other traiditional styles is they are one dimentional and lack ALL the tools you need in order to survive in a street situation.

But in terms of this case which traditional Karate style do you think will hold up best in the street?


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## cas

This is likely to spark a "my karate is better then your karate" discussion. If you want to discuss selfdefence and karate it might be better to ask opinions on a specific technique or strategy.

just a thought,

Casper


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## Littledragon

cas said:
			
		

> This is likely to spark a "my karate is better then your karate" discussion. If you want to discuss selfdefence and karate it might be better to ask opinions on a specific technique or strategy.
> 
> just a thought,
> 
> Casper


I am basically asking what style is the best for self defense not what style is better than another. But we have to leap out of the traditional shell and face reality and say well which style is indeed better to hold up in the street?


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## hedgehogey

Kyokushin-kai and it's offshoots (esp. shidokan) by far. The full contact tournaments are a huge advantage, though they dissalow punches to the face.

Shotokan doesn't hold full contact tourneys.


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## Littledragon

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> Kyokushin-kai and it's offshoots (esp. shidokan) by far. The full contact tournaments are a huge advantage, though they dissalow punches to the face.
> 
> Shotokan doesn't hold full contact tourneys.


Yes the reason I think Kyokushin is so effective as a traditional Karate system is because they are so exposed to that full contact atmosphere and actually challenge themselves by testing what tradition really can do.

I agree with you. 

Tarek

My Master was a full contact Shotokan champion in Egypt so I believe they do have full contact events.


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## Scout_379

Personally, I dislike Kyokushin, and I cannot beleive that their tournaments are full contact. In most of the traditional forms, the concept is "one punch, one kill", and if the tournament were "full contact", there should be only one person left standing, IMO.

Also, the tournament atmosphere is very different from the actual thing.  In a streetfight, there is no time to prepare, no time to choose your shots, and often involve multiple opponents.  You would want to get the hell outta there b4 taking them all on. (but if you _are_ cornered, it would be much more discouraging to the group if you knocked out one guy with one hit {which is a technique available to most karateka, regardless of experience}, rather than pissing them off more by attacking for the sake of attacking. Which would make a dangerous situition worse)
But I think that you cannot judge what Karate(s) is(are) best suited to streetfights because it has never been tested, and _hopefully_ will never have to be. It would be best to keep out of those situations in the first place


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## hippy

A full wado-ryu syllabus will contain techniques for all fighting distances.
even though it is karate (primarily regarded as punching and kicking) the founder (otsuka) was a well known jujitsu master before he studied under funakoshi (shotokan founder), which means that the majority of syllabus' for wado will start with striking techniques, u will progress onto grappling + throwing in higher grades.


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## DeLamar.J

Littledragon said:
			
		

> What Do You Think Are The Most Effective Karate Styles?
> 
> We are taking an over 3,000 year old art and applying it to reality. Which traditional Karate systems do you think would hold up in a street NHB self-defense situation?
> 
> 
> Personally in my opinion I believe the most lethal and effictive Karate styles are Kyokoshin Karate and Shoto-Kan Karate due to the full contact kumite aspects of the art it trains the artist to be aggressive and feel what real contact is.
> 
> The only thing I think is a negative about Karate and all other traiditional styles is they are one dimentional and lack ALL the tools you need in order to survive in a street situation.
> 
> But in terms of this case which traditional Karate style do you think will hold up best in the street?


I would say Goju Ryu.


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## OC Kid

personal preferance, if you like to kick take a korean style, if you like to punch take a japanese style if you want 50/50 then take one which practices that. All styles are different. All styles are good. If we were all the same then we would all be driving dodges like me.


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## Ippon Ken

How would anyone know the answer to this question unless they practiced all the styles of karate there are? In my teachers organization he has Kyokushinkai, Shotokan, TSD, Shito Ryu, all the branches of the Shorin tree (except Matsubayashi), Okinawan Kempo, Matsumura Kenpo, Uechi Ryu stylists, Freestyle karate-ka, Eclectic Karate/Ju Jutsu and Goju guys. When we have seminars we all get together and train the old Okinawan way, one oreinted to real fighting. The Japanese and Korean karate-ka look like they need a lot of work, and the really tense full-contact stylists and Okinawan Kempo-ka seem to need the most work when it is all said and done. 

So is it the style or the stylist? Both, with some styles being more street oriented, like Kobayashi, Uechi Ryu and Matsumura Seito, and others more ring oriented, like Shotokan and Kickboxing (freestyle karate). Depends on what you're training for.


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## Andrew Green

Scout_379 said:
			
		

> Personally, I dislike Kyokushin, and I cannot beleive that their tournaments are full contact. In most of the traditional forms, the concept is "one punch, one kill", and if the tournament were "full contact", there should be only one person left standing, IMO.


Then either no one that enters full contact competition knows how to hit, or that theory is mistaken.

That concept is flawed, and an ideal rather then a reality, one borrowed from Kendo, as well as a few others.  In the early 1900's karate went to Japan and the Dai Nippon Budokai required modifications to fit with the existing Japanese ideals on what martial arts should be like.  Some ideas where borrowed from Judo (rank, Uniforms, etc.) some where borrowed from Kendo (sparring philosophy being one)

Anyways as too which has the best shot.  Funny question, the answer is on which uses the most realistic sparring methods.  In general I guess you could say Kyokushin, due to the full contact.  But even it is severly limited under modern rules.


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## Shogun

Borrowed Ideas, and misguided concepts of "newer" martial arts leaves students with a false sense of security. however, do beleive the right types of Traditional MA (usually Koryu, or those tested in combat) can be extremely effective, both for mental and physical purposes. Bujinkan Taijutsu was tested out in Bareknuckle combat in the early 1900's by Takamatsu, 33rd inheritor of Ninjutsu.


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## Andrew Green

Shogun said:
			
		

> Borrowed Ideas, and misguided concepts of "newer" martial arts leaves students with a false sense of security. however, do beleive the right types of Traditional MA (usually Koryu, or those tested in combat) can be extremely effective, both for mental and physical purposes. Bujinkan Taijutsu was tested out in Bareknuckle combat in the early 1900's by Takamatsu, 33rd inheritor of Ninjutsu.


Perhaps a misguided concept is thinking that after how many generations of no one actually testing it or questioning it it will remain functional.

Many of the newer style are perhaps misguided, but some are not.  Some are based on people testing it out and finding out what works for them, not for some asian guy 100 years ago on the other side of the world.

Of course others are more impressed with long lineages, fantastic stories, and cool titles.


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## Pale Rider

OC Kid said:
			
		

> personal preferance, if you like to kick take a korean style, if you like to punch take a japanese style if you want 50/50 then take one which practices that. All styles are different. All styles are good. If we were all the same then we would all be driving dodges like me.


I agree with this statement 100%.  How can one say that one style would be more effective in situations over any other style.  There are only differences in techniques - just like the quote above...

In my opinion, I believe that a style like Tae Kwon Do utilizes more kicking techniques and granted they train their legs to be just as fast as the hands, so can I say that because I believe in more of a 50/50 that TKD is wrong?  No!  There will be things that they will be able to do more so then I, and as long as it works that is the main objective.

There are close range fighting techniques like Wing Chun which in my opinion works just as effective as the distance fighting like Tae Kwon Do or the style that I am in Tang Soo Do.  

Let's look at the simple basics - a punch is still a punch.  The only way that it differs is the way it is delivered.  Whether 1/2 twist, 3/4 twist or the full rotation.  

What about what we call blocks:  they are still "blocks".  Whether or not they are deliver closer to the body as in Japanese/Okinawan styles or farther away like in the Korean arts - they are still basically the same techniques.  Each style will have their own bunkais to dictate what the techniques are designed for, and in their eyes they are right.  For who's to say which one is right and which one is wrong?

That is like saying which is more effective in a real life street technique - a kick compared to a joint lock?  

How can anyone really compare?  If the martial arts that you are in serves you well and if or when the time comes and it saves you from harm - then that is what is most important.

Wouldn't you agree?


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## Shogun

Oh, I wasnt refering to BJJ and new combat systems. I was refering to New traditional systems.


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## Mark Weiser

Okay here it goes any MA that is simple and effective, easy to teach and learn is the best. 

Remember if you are going to teach self defense you have to be able to teach

Children
Adults
Seniors
Disabled
Effective and simple to use movements that use one to a max of three movements are ideal for most people. Stun and Run type training. Remember the difference in study of MA for Ranking and Self Defense are often different to most people.


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## Andrew Green

self-defence and fighting are not the same thing.


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## Shogun

IMO, Fighting is engaging an opponent, whether intentional or not. Self defense is protecting yourself, and maybe others (depends if ya like em,lol) but as a method of escape.
here is how Webster's defines Fighting:

Main Entry: *1fight*


Pronunciation: 'fIt
Function: _verb_
Inflected Form(s): *fought*


 /'fot/; *fight·ing*
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English _feohtan; _akin to Old High German _fehtan _to fight and perhaps to Latin _pectere _to comb -- more at [size=-1]PECTINATE[/size]
_intransitive senses_
*1 a* *:* to contend in battle or physical combat; _especially_ *:* to strive to overcome a person by blows or weapons *b* *:* to engage in boxing
*2* *:* to put forth a determined effort
_transitive senses_
*1 a *(1) *:* to contend against in or as if in battle or physical combat (2) *:* to box against in the ring *b *(1) *:* to attempt to prevent the success or effectiveness of <the company _fought _the takeover attempt> (2) *:* to oppose the passage or development of <_fight_ a bill in Congress>
*2 a* *: [size=-1]WAGE[/size], [size=-1]CARRY ON[/size]* <_fight_ a battle> *b* *:* to take part in (as a boxing match)
*3* *:* to struggle to endure or surmount <_fight_ a cold>
*4 a* *:* to gain by struggle <_fight__s _his way through> *b* *:* to resolve by struggle <_fought _out their differences in court>
*5 a* *:* to manage (a ship) in a battle or storm *b* *:* to cause to struggle or contend *c* *:* to manage in an unnecessarily rough or awkward manner
- *fight shy of* *:* to avoid facing or meeting 


Now with that, any type of physical contact could be interpeted as fighting, but in today's society, fighting is how I described it.


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## hardheadjarhead

Littledragon said:
			
		

> What Do You Think Are The Most Effective Karate Styles?
> 
> We are taking an over 3,000 year old art and applying it to reality. Which traditional Karate systems do you think would hold up in a street NHB self-defense situation?
> 
> 
> Personally in my opinion I believe the most lethal and effictive Karate styles are Kyokoshin Karate and Shoto-Kan Karate due to the full contact kumite aspects of the art it trains the artist to be aggressive and feel what real contact is.




3,000 year old art?  That's a new one on me.  I never heard it dated back that far before.

When I was in Shotokan it was light or no contact.  I haven't heard of too many Shotokan schools that do full contact kumite.  That whole notion of "full contact" is a misnomer.  Even Kyokushin guys don't typically try to kill their sparring parnters with each shot.  At least not the ones I've known.

Regards,


Steve


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## Shogun

The only 3,000 years old art is Pankration, and its original form isnt even around today. So Yoga or Chuan'fa is your best bet for 2,000 years old arts.


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## parmandjack

I believe this question, while innocent enough, is truly an inexperienced question, although I have seen numerous inexperienced but honest attempts to answer this question from different angles...

The fact of the matter is two fold...

Today, people speak of "street-fighting" as if it is some quasi-mystical, indominable offensive/defensive "art"...

....it is not....

A "street-fighter" is what you and I were, and every other martial artist was prior to beginning training in our chosen arts.

A "street-fighter" is simply someone unskilled in fighting disciples... there is no "course" there is no "curriculum"...

Now to qualify my last statement, while a "street-fighter" is unskilled in fighting techniques, they might be a tough guy who can take a punch and could be "skilled" in the "street-fighting" techniques of pulling your hair, sucker punches, kicks to the crotch, swinging a stick ,etc... as well as outright muscles...

Many years ago, I grew up in Glasgow Scotland, one of the roughest cities in Europe, and where "street-fighting" cut its teeth. "Street-Fighting" was smashing your enemies face in with a rock, picking up a broken bottle and slashing you with it, swing a stick with nails driven through the end at any accessable part of your opponents body, slashing you with a hidden razor, etc...

...However, none of those "techniques" fall in to the area of un-defeatable, or else you and I would never have chosen the discipline of a martial art, we would all be "street-fighters"...right???

... and don't forget... any martial artist can also revert to pulling your hair or sucker punch you or otherwise use any other "technique" of the "street-fighter" if your skill level in karate, judo, kung-fu or in any other art is not up to the task of defeating your opponent... they may be bigger, stronger, faster and meaner than you, and had a few more fights than you so are not surprised and stunned the first time they take a hit ( I have seen many "martial artists"... stop dead in their tracks like a deer in the headlights, the first time they get hit)

The difference between you and the "street-fighter" is that once his bag of dirty tricks is empty, he may as well put his hands in his pockets and go home, or perhaps lie down on the ground, because if he didn't get you in the beginning with the cheap shots, then his repetoire of tools is used up, and he is now at your mercy...

This is of course, assuming that the "martial artist" in this "street-fighter" scenerio is any good to begin with....I know black belts who shouldn't be on the same training floor as some white belts...

It all depends on the person....

As for one form of karate over another.. there is no answer... and no, it does NOT come down to "full contact tournaments or full contact training etc..." regardless of what anyone here sez...

If I use full contact in an encounter with you after I finish this post, and I target specific areas of your body... I *WILL* kill you... that is not a question... that is a fact... how can anyone then tell you that because of "full-contact" training, this or that style is better?

The purpose of karate training is to either kill or permanently maim your opponent as quickly as possible...period...

If you attack me or my loved ones... I want you to die, not me or them... that is what real karate training is all about... not pads and tournies to rack up points and trophies for shallow strikes that got a point faster than the opponent, but that in real life application wouldn't have stopped or injured them in any way... sure ... there is sport karate these days.. but I am not talking or interested in sports karate, nor are you I believe... I am talking about real karate... real application... real mindset to do damage when necessary... and willing to take it to the final deadly outcome when and if necessary...

Putting pads on both yourself and your oppoent in a tournament only does one thing...it allows you both to flail at each other with poor technique, as both opponents know that they are protected with pads and wont really sustain any life threatening injuries... with that in mind... technique... and I mean true proper "killing" technique, goes out the window rapidly...

Traditional karate from the beginning NEVER had full contact kumite training, as true practitioners from the beginning trained in karate to kill or permanently main their adverseries... this type of training cannot be duplicated in a ring with pads... which is why traditional Shotokan karate does not practice full contact sparring etc... it DETRACTS from your skill level, it does not add to it.... and again, I do realize that there are sports karate clubs out there that practice Shotokan.. but they have bastardized the style to make it fit the sports requirements... ie: shallow punches to increase the speed to get a point, but that would not inflict any real injury, or flashing up the kata to make them look fancy for judges, but that change the imbedded techniques and reduce their real life effectiveness etc...

One other statement I'd like to address is this...it was mentioned by another in this string that he likes karate except for one thing... it was one dimensional and lacked any practical application for self defense in a "real street" scenario...

To respond to this I can tell you that I for one, would be the first one to drop karate training if it had no practical purpose... I can jog for physical health if thats all karate does for me... so its obvious that that statement is without merit, for one... karate would not exist today if it was true, as all the original practitioners would be dead from their action against the Samurai warlords the art was developed to defend against...who would have survived to teach it... and who would want to learn it if doesn't work and they would be killed???

As for being one dimensional? - how so? karate bunkai (application) incorporates every part of the human body as a target, and every possible part of the body that can be utilized as a striking tool... bunkai also incorporates everything from punching, kicking, and blocking to chokes, locks, throws, and take downs etc... with the subject of your attack succumbing to your will in the form of being pacified or maimed or killed, all of which depend solely on your particular frame of mind at the very instant that you apply your defensive or offensive technique...

So one dimensional??? I would have to strongly disagree...

As you can tell I am a traditional purest, a Black Belt for many years now with the SKIF (Shotokan Karate-Do International Federation), I am a direct student of Hirokazu Kanazawa Kancho, who was an original student of Gichin Funakoshi, the very person who introduced Karate-Do to Japan from Okinawa.

It is very hard these days to find a purest dojo, but if you are truly interested in learning the art form as it was from the beginning, with "No Changes" (as some people like to imply or outright suggest it has all been changed), I would highly recommend you follow up my words above and scout out an SKIF dojo.

And please remember, the colour of your belt doesn't make you better, it is your attitude and perseverance... the styles are a matter of preference... two people in totally different styles, could be exact matches against each other, it all depends on your attitude, ability, knowledge level, and perseverance.

Karate-Do means "The Way of Empty hand"... which infers that all we have in any situation in life (be it a conflict or tea drinking), is ourselves, and what God gave us... there is therefore... no better style... your art is all within you, and your willingness to take it as far as you are mentally, emotionally and physically capable of doing...

I apologize for my reply being so long, but this chain was raising a number of issues that junior practitioners could well be taken in by...

OSS...


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## nlmantis

I had the chance to train for a couple of days in camps with guys from Kamakura The Hague (http://www.kamakura.demon.nl/pages/bioger.html). Their style is the most effective at least in Europe as they win all the titles (also when they visit NA). It seems to work for them on the streets as well, you know what I mean. Full contact means no protection and taking your opponent out fast. I have seen a good fighter break his chin when his lowkick was blocked with the chin, and many knock-outs within seconds after starting the match. The word effective to me implies how techniques are applied to quickly take your opponent beyond the point of being able to fight back, and I am completely biased but would say I haven't seen a Karate style more effective than Kyokushin.


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## RRouuselot

Littledragon said:
			
		

> What Do You Think Are The Most Effective Karate Styles?
> 
> We are taking an over 3,000 year old art and applying it to reality. Which traditional Karate systems do you think would hold up in a street NHB self-defense situation?
> 
> 
> Personally in my opinion I believe the most lethal and effictive Karate styles are Kyokoshin Karate and Shoto-Kan Karate due to the full contact kumite aspects of the art it trains the artist to be aggressive and feel what real contact is.
> 
> The only thing I think is a negative about Karate and all other traiditional styles is they are one dimentional and lack ALL the tools you need in order to survive in a street situation.
> 
> But in terms of this case which traditional Karate style do you think will hold up best in the street?


 3000 year old art???? Which art would that be?
 As for you main question..........not to be rude but its an imature question ans shows your lack of understanding of the fighting arts.
 It ALWAYS depends on the fighter and not so much the style.


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## Gary Crawford

The most effective Karate?I think that is a silly question.I mean no offense.I beleive the effectiveness relies on the individual student and individual instructor more than the style.


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## wadokai_indo

hippy said:
			
		

> A full wado-ryu syllabus will contain techniques for all fighting distances.
> even though it is karate (primarily regarded as punching and kicking) the founder (otsuka) was a well known jujitsu master before he studied under funakoshi (shotokan founder), which means that the majority of syllabus' for wado will start with striking techniques, u will progress onto grappling + throwing in higher grades.


Yes, that is very true  I studied Wado for a long time under one of Otsuka sensei's direct student.. At the lower levels (Kyu grades) we trained in kicking and punching (but from a higher, more mobile stances, different with Shotokan). 

Then at the middle levels (early Dan grades) we learn 9 basic Katas (Pinan 1-5, Kushanku, Naihanchi, Seishan, Chinto) and the 10 Kihon Kumite (basic defenses against a fast combinations of punches and kicks), the Kihon Kumite already contains grappling (throwing and joint locking). Some of the Taoshuwaza (takedowns) most immediately relevant for Kumite is also taught at this level.

Finally at the higher level (middle Dan grades) we are exposed to Shindo Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu, and begin learning traditional Jujutsu techniques from sitting position (Idori, this is also an entry to ground fighting), techniques from standing position (Tachiai, these are throwing and locking techniques), techniques against Knife (Tantodori) and finally techniques against sword (Tachidori).

My Dojo sacrifices competition fighting for the more traditional approach, so our focus is not competition Karate but the Jujutsu portion of Wado-ryu. The tradeoff is that we are pretty much useless in competition, but we learned the Jujutsu stuff which other Dojos are lacking. So maybe it is not very fair to lump Wado-ryu with "strike-only" and/or "competition-only" Karate styles. Wado-ryu is more like Jujutsu+Karate.

Here, for more info www.geocities.com/wadokai_indonesia


Thanks to Hippy for bringing this up!


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## RRouuselot

hippy said:
			
		

> A full wado-ryu syllabus will contain techniques for all fighting distances.
> *even though it is karate (primarily regarded as punching and kicking)* the founder (otsuka) was a well known jujitsu master before he studied under funakoshi (shotokan founder), which means that the majority of syllabus' for wado will start with striking techniques, u will progress onto grappling + throwing in higher grades.


That is true for "Japanese" Karate, however, original Okinawan karate has always had grappling in it's kata.....tuite, tegumi, etc...which in most dojo are taught from the begining.

As for Otsuka Sr.....he trained for several years in jujutsu and reached 6th dan, he trained with Funakoshi's karate dojo for a *whopping* 14 months. Which is one of several reasons why Wado Heian kata differ from shotokan.


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## wadokai_indo

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> That is true for "Japanese" Karate, however, original Okinawan karate has always had grappling in it's kata.....tuite, tegumi, etc...which in most dojo are taught from the begining.
> 
> As for Otsuka Sr.....he trained for several years in jujutsu and reached 6th dan, he trained with Funakoshi's karate dojo for a *whopping* 14 months. Which is one of several reasons why Wado Heian kata differ from shotokan.


I am sorry sir, but could  you please tell me where did you get the information of Otsuka sensei reached "6th Dan" in Jujutsu? The official word from Wado-ryu Renmei (www.wado-ryu.jp) is Otsuka sensei received Menkyokaiden and was designated as the 4th successor of Shindo Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu. This particular Koryu Jujutsu style does not use Dan Ranks, but the Menkyo (licensing) system, with Menkyokaiden denotes the license to teach the entire system.

In regards of why Otsuka sensei's Katas are different with Shotokan, it is because he trained not only with Funakoshi sensei but also with Mabuni Kenwa of Shito-ryu and especially with Motobu Choki. Otsuka sensei also synthesized some ideas of his own, thus resulting in a series of Katas which are different with Shotokans. By the way, we uses PINAN katas not HEIAN katas.

With friendly regards,

Ben


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## RRouuselot

wadokai_indo said:
			
		

> 1)*I am sorry sir, but could you please tell me where did you get the information of Otsuka sensei reached "6th Dan" in Jujutsu?* The official word from Wado-ryu Renmei (www.wado-ryu.jp) is Otsuka sensei received Menkyokaiden and was designated as the 4th successor of Shindo Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu. This particular Koryu Jujutsu style does not use Dan Ranks, but the Menkyo (licensing) system, with Menkyokaiden denotes the license to teach the entire system.
> 
> In regards of why Otsuka sensei's Katas are different with Shotokan, it is because 2)*he trained not only with Funakoshi sensei but also with Mabuni Kenwa of Shito-ryu and especially with Motobu Choki.* Otsuka sensei also synthesized some ideas of his own, thus resulting in a series of Katas which are different with Shotokans. 3)*By the way, we uses PINAN katas not HEIAN katas.*
> 
> With friendly regards,
> 
> Ben


1) From a bio I read on him in Japanese....If memory serves the dan rank and menkyo were granted through the *Butokukai* in Kyoto....according to the article anyway. I also met him and his son at one of there demos. 

2) I have yet to find anything stating he was a student of Motobu's. If he did train with him it wasn't long enough to be considered worthy of mentioning in Motobu's list of students I have seen over the last 25 years in Japanese or English out side of Wado's "official line" that is. 

3) Just for your edification Heian is the word used by most dojos in Tokyo and Pinan is used by Okinawan dojo. Other than the Okinawan/Japanese pronunciation they are the same kata...at least they were until karate went to Tokyo.


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## wadokai_indo

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I have yet to find anything stating he was a student of Motobu's. If he did train with him it wasn't long enough to be considered worthy of mentioning in Motobu's list of students I have seen over the last 25 years in Japanese or English out side of Wado's "official line" that is.
> 
> Just for your edification Heian is the word used by most dojos in Tokyo and Pinan is used by Okinawan dojo. Other than the Okinawan/Japanese pronunciation they are the same kata...at least they were until karate went to Tokyo.


Well, In that case I am very glad I that have informed to you our official "Wado Party Line". 

Here are some links which describes the relationship between the legendary Motobu and Otsuka sensei:

http://www.ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_noble1_0200.htm

http://www.wadoworld.com/history/naihanchienigma/modernmasters/modernmasters.html

http://www.seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-funakoshi2.html


Regarding the Heian/Pinan similarities, the official Wado groups in Japan (Wadokai, Wado-ryu Renmei) always refer to them as Pinan. With all the differences that occured between Wado and Shotokan versions of these 5 Katas, it is safe to assume that they're now very different Katas which has travelled a different stream in history.

http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_goods/ev_wa/v_wado.html

Almost every Karate Kata in Wado-ryu uses original names as taught by senseis Motobu, Mabuni and off course Funakoshi, before it was changed into the current Shotokan names. For example, Tekki Shodan = Naihanchi, Hangetsu = Seishan, Gankaku = Chinto, Nijushiho = Niseishi, Empi = Wanshu. 

In any case, it's nice to have a discussion with you.

Your friend in Budo,

Ben Haryo


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## RRouuselot

wadokai_indo said:
			
		

> Well, In that case I am very glad I that have informed to you our official "Wado Party Line".
> 
> Here are some links which describes the relationship between the legendary Motobu and Otsuka sensei:
> 
> http://www.ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_noble1_0200.htm
> 
> http://www.wadoworld.com/history/naihanchienigma/modernmasters/modernmasters.html
> 
> http://www.seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-funakoshi2.html
> 
> 
> Regarding the Heian/Pinan similarities, the official Wado groups in Japan (Wadokai, Wado-ryu Renmei) always refer to them as Pinan. With all the differences that occured between Wado and Shotokan versions of these 5 Katas, it is safe to assume that they're now very different Katas which has travelled a different stream in history.
> 
> http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_goods/ev_wa/v_wado.html
> 
> Almost every Karate Kata in Wado-ryu uses original names as taught by senseis Motobu, Mabuni and off course Funakoshi, before it was changed into the current Shotokan names. For example, Tekki Shodan = Naihanchi, Hangetsu = Seishan, Gankaku = Chinto, Nijushiho = Niseishi, Empi = Wanshu.
> 
> In any case, it's nice to have a discussion with you.
> 
> Your friend in Budo,
> 
> Ben Haryo


http://www.ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_noble1_0200.htm

This link I have seen many times before. Grahm Noble is a good writer. Its not a bad article but doesnt give any detail how extensively he trained with Motobu. For example I read in many articles about the relationship of Yasuhiro Konishi and Motobu and it has been documented the he was an actual student of Motobu and didnt just pick up a few pointers or a kata. 





http://www.wadoworld.com/history/na...ernmasters.html



.......the history according to wado 

http://www.seinenkai.com/articles/n...funakoshi2.html 



This basically says he was present during a sort of "demo" that Motobu had set up to make Funakoshi look stupid. 


_"Unlike Gichin Funakoshi he was not a kata enthusiast and his uncompromising emphasis on application led him to criticise Funakoshi's karate. There is a story in "Nihon Budo Taikei" (a Japanese encyclopaedia of Budo) about a meeting between the two men at *Yasuhiro Konishi's dojo* in 1929. Hironori Ohtsuka was also present. Motobu had with him a strong young 4th dan judoka, and no doubt in an attempt to put Funakoshi down, he arranged a little test in which the judoka took a firm hold on his (Funakoshi's) collar and sleeve. "Now," he said to Funakoshi, "you are so proud of your basic kata, show me what value they have in this situation. Do what you wish to escape."_

(I have actually seen where that dojo was as well as met Konishi's son)


It has been my contention that Ohtsuka was a student/training partner of Konishis and Mabuni but not really a "direct" student under Motobu. This idea is based on books written by Motobu that list his students in great detail but have never mentioned Ohtsuka in the lineage chart.......I find it odd that if he were indeed a "real" student that he not be mentioned in his teachers lineage chart as being so. So if Motobu didn't claim him as a student then there is no reason for me to think he was. Many people in Japan and elsewhere claim to be students of XXXXX master after a chance meeting or even spending a little time training with them. People have and still do this to my teacher after training at a single seminar! Basically if the teacher doesn't claim you as a student then you aren't one.

Maybe Ohtsuka did pick up a kata/some tips from Motobu himself.....I have worked out with countless people.......some rather extensively. I dont claim to be their student and I highly doubt I will be listed in any lineage chart from their dojo.

So when I see something that has been written by Motobu saying Ohtsuka was his student then I wll believe it.


----------



## wadokai_indo

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Many people in Japan and elsewhere claim to be students of XXXXX master after a chance meeting or even spending a little time training with them.


Hahahaha! Yes sir, you are very correct!  This is what people call "the curse of famous instructors!"   Once we became a bit famous, then people would come up and claim that they train with us (even though the "training" itself only consists of one day seminars, maybe even just a visit to the Dojo  ).

Personally I think he did studied a Kata or two from Motobu sensei, and maybe sparred a bit & learn some Kumite, but not very extensive. The "Student of Mabuni/training partner of Konishi" bit I think is accurate. Otsuka sensei and Konishi were good friends, so it is very plausible that Konishi arranged some meetings/training sessions with Motobu, on which Otsuka was also present & trained some along the way.

Well, have a nice weekend!

Ben


----------



## bignick

to answer the original question...the one you like the best are willing to train the hardest in...that's probably the best answer...

as for the 3,000 year old art, i assume you're talking about taekwondo...

well...i'm sorry but taekwondo was created in the fifties...it was influenced by korea's long history of martial arts(tae kyon, soo bak) but to say that it's 3000 years old is grossly incorrect...and there is some evidence to support that it came from japan/okinawa...and there is evidence likewise that okinawa/japanese arts were influenced by korea...very few cultures/arts developed in a void...

as for asking which is the most effective for self defense...and dismissing those crazy old "traditional" styles...there's where you're making your biggest mistake...there's most likely a reason why a certain style of karate can trace it's lineage back for centuries...aka it worked, therefore people survived and passed down...


----------



## wadokai_indo

bignick said:
			
		

> to answer the original question...the one you like the best are willing to train the hardest in...that's probably the best answer...
> 
> as for the 3,000 year old art, i assume you're talking about taekwondo...
> 
> well...i'm sorry but taekwondo was created in the fifties...it was influenced by korea's long history of martial arts(tae kyon, soo bak) but to say that it's 3000 years old is grossly incorrect...and there is some evidence to support that it came from japan/okinawa...and there is evidence likewise that okinawa/japanese arts were influenced by korea...very few cultures/arts developed in a void...
> 
> as for asking which is the most effective for self defense...and dismissing those crazy old "traditional" styles...there's where you're making your biggest mistake...there's most likely a reason why a certain style of karate can trace it's lineage back for centuries...aka it worked, therefore people survived and passed down...


Yes sir, this sounds very logical.. if the art is not effective then the practitioners won't survived long enough to transmit it! 

I think this is a common logic for Karate as well as Jujutsu and any other types of martial arts!


----------



## Ippon Ken

wadokai_indo said:
			
		

> Hahahaha! Yes sir, you are very correct!  This is what people call "the curse of famous instructors!"  Once we became a bit famous, then people would come up and claim that they train with us (even though the "training" itself only consists of one day seminars, maybe even just a visit to the Dojo  ).
> 
> Personally I think he did studied a Kata or two from Motobu sensei, and maybe sparred a bit & learn some Kumite, but not very extensive. The "Student of Mabuni/training partner of Konishi" bit I think is accurate. Otsuka sensei and Konishi were good friends, so it is very plausible that Konishi arranged some meetings/training sessions with Motobu, on which Otsuka was also present & trained some along the way.
> 
> Well, have a nice weekend!
> 
> Ben


Ohtsuka's prowess as a Jujutsu-ka led Funakoshi to exclaim to him after seeing him demonstrate what he knew for the first time "Where did you study tode? You are obviously versed in the fighting traditions of Okinawa"?! With this Ohtsuka sensei replied "I am a Jujustu-ka". that being said I think that Ohtsuka, being a very accomplished budo-ka at a young age made him realize how much Funakoshi didn't know or wasn't able to teach him, especially after training with respected Okinawan Shishii like Motobu Choki and Mabuni Kenwa.

I think that it is safe to assume that after training with all three he saw the original Toudi of Kenwa and Motobu as superior and more realitic for fighting than the Shotokan that Funakoshi was shopping about Japan. That's why he used the Okinawan names- Seishan for Hangetsu, Naihanchi for Tekki and so on. 

I always thought of Wado as the most Okinawan of the Japanese karate ryuha. I feel that Kyokushin and Wado are very good styles of karate, and the fact that Ohtsuka was a renowned jujutsu-ka, he understood the Okinawan concepts of change-body and circular movement very well. For this simple fact, the absence of grappling (tegumi or tuite) and juho in Shotokan was not lost on Ohtsuka. His JJJ experience "patched up" the holes in the strike-block-punch dominant karate of most Japanese styles, especially Shotokan.

Does Wado train kobudo or kobujutsu? I can see why Ohtsuka wanted to form his own karate organization and style. Many Okinawans had the same gripe concerning Funakoshi's karate "expertise".

Later and have a great weekend!


----------



## RRouuselot

wadokai_indo said:
			
		

> .............Personally I think he did studied a Kata or two from Motobu sensei, and maybe sparred a bit & learn some Kumite, but not very extensive. The "Student of Mabuni/training partner of Konishi" bit I think is accurate. *Otsuka sensei and Konishi were good friends, so it is very plausible that Konishi arranged some meetings/training sessions with Motobu, on which Otsuka was also present & trained some along the way.*
> 
> Well, have a nice weekend!
> 
> Ben


 Like I said I thought Ohtsuka being a direct student was a bit off and most likely got bits here and there from Konishi's training with Motobu and from an odd visit from Motobu himself.

  As for the kumite.....here is a piece from the URL you supplied. He doesn't seem they shared the same style of kumite either.

  (The person that wrote the history for this got Motobu's son's name screwed up. It's actually Chomei not Chosei as written on the Wado website)


_*Motobus Kumite  Ohtsukas Kumite and Naihanchi*

 There are some similarities between Choki Motobus Kumite and some of Ohtsuka Senseis Kumite, but the modus operandi displayed by the inheritor of Motobu's teaching, namely his son Chosei, demonstrates within the applications to Naihanchi and within the twelve Motobu Kihon Gumite a very much more straight on and immediate approach. The Kihon Gumite of Motobu are very direct and also very accessible, whereas the Ohtsuka Kumite pairs exercises appear to have greater subtlety, betraying their Jujutsu and Japanese Budo roots.

 Close examination of Motobus 1926 book shows the use of deflections, simultaneous parries and strikes, closing of distances and punches acting as deflections. Also some researchers have sought to identify movements and positions found within Naihanchi kata, and indeed they are there! Returning to Motobus previously mentioned quote;

__"Twisting to the left or right from the Naifuanchin stance will give you the stance used in a real confrontation. Twisting ones way of thinking about Naifuanchin left and right, the various meanings in each movement of the kata will also become clear."

 It is not difficult to see the applications within the 1926 book. In one example we see the attacker grabbed and pulled on to a strike which comes out of the side of the body, a clear and obvious application from Naihanchi.

 As mentioned before, the key differences between the Kumite devised by the two masters are in Ohtsukas use of principles taken from his background in Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, as well as techniques that relate closely to traditional schools of swordsmanship. But common ground can be found in engagement distances and the closing down of the opponent by crashing through the zones and distances. Motobu also periodically demonstrates the use of his legs to destabilize or limit the manoeuvrability of his opponent, this is also found in Ohtsukas Kumite, but is normally associated with the Kuzushi (unbalancing) found in schools of traditional Jujutsu. Here again we can make a clear connection between principles found in the Kumite of both Masters and Naihanchi. In Wado it is understood that the operation of the Naihanchi stance promotes easy use of the knees to destabilize while allowing the torso freedom to rotate. But if this is common to Motobu and Ohtsuka, who influenced who? Or is it just a coincidence? Whatever the answer is, Naihanchi seems to have been a common denominator.
_


----------



## RRouuselot

wadokai_indo said:
			
		

> *Yes sir, this sounds very logical.. if the art is not effective then the practitioners won't survived long enough to transmit it!*
> 
> I think this is a common logic for Karate as well as Jujutsu and any other types of martial arts!




 I disagree with this statement very strongly. If you look around the days of tsukiji nage/tsukijigiri /dojo yaburi are loooooooong gone. There are so many crap styles of MAs out now its incredible. And because they cant be challenged in the old way do to the legal ramifications from the afore mentioned methods they grow and prosper. Just look at all the Mcdojos that have popped up over the years, look at all the bogus Soke 10th dans that are floating around..........Basically I see more crap dojos that would have been shut down using the old way that actually did weed out the wheat from the chaff.


----------



## RRouuselot

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> * I always thought of Wado as the most Okinawan of the Japanese karate ryuha. *I feel that Kyokushin and Wado are very good styles of karate, and the fact that Ohtsuka was a renowned jujutsu-ka, he understood the Okinawan concepts of change-body and circular movement very well. For this simple fact, the absence of grappling (tegumi or tuite) and juho in Shotokan was not lost on Ohtsuka. His JJJ experience "patched up" the holes in the strike-block-punch dominant karate of most Japanese styles, especially Shotokan.


 What about Shito Ryu?


----------



## wadokai_indo

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> Ohtsuka's prowess as a Jujutsu-ka led Funakoshi to exclaim to him after seeing him demonstrate what he knew for the first time "Where did you study tode? You are obviously versed in the fighting traditions of Okinawa"?! With this Ohtsuka sensei replied "I am a Jujustu-ka". that being said I think that Ohtsuka, being a very accomplished budo-ka at a young age made him realize how much Funakoshi didn't know or wasn't able to teach him, especially after training with respected Okinawan Shishii like Motobu Choki and Mabuni Kenwa.
> 
> I think that it is safe to assume that after training with all three he saw the original Toudi of Kenwa and Motobu as superior and more realitic for fighting than the Shotokan that Funakoshi was shopping about Japan. That's why he used the Okinawan names- Seishan for Hangetsu, Naihanchi for Tekki and so on.
> 
> I always thought of Wado as the most Okinawan of the Japanese karate ryuha. I feel that Kyokushin and Wado are very good styles of karate, and the fact that Ohtsuka was a renowned jujutsu-ka, he understood the Okinawan concepts of change-body and circular movement very well. For this simple fact, the absence of grappling (tegumi or tuite) and juho in Shotokan was not lost on Ohtsuka. His JJJ experience "patched up" the holes in the strike-block-punch dominant karate of most Japanese styles, especially Shotokan.
> 
> Does Wado train kobudo or kobujutsu? I can see why Ohtsuka wanted to form his own karate organization and style. Many Okinawans had the same gripe concerning Funakoshi's karate "expertise".
> 
> Later and have a great weekend!


Yes sir, I agree with much of what you said here. Otsuka sensei does not train in Okinawan weapons. He received his weapons training from the Buki no Waza of Shindo Yoshin-ryu and possibly from other styles like Jiki Shinkage-ryu.


----------



## Ippon Ken

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> What about Shito Ryu?


What about Nisei Goju? Nope and nope! Are you talking about Kuniba's Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu? Well that is a joke and the "Ha" should be Ha-Ha! Japanese Shito is nothing like Mabuni Kenwa's Shito Ryu as taught on Okinawa. It's flippy, deeper stanced flying kick Shotokan. NOPE! It's like ShorinJi Ryu Renshinkan vs. Kyan inspired Shorinji Ryu. Wado is a style more closely related to its Okinawan cousin arts than any other Japanese ryuha.


----------



## RRouuselot

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> What about Nisei Goju? Nope and nope! Are you talking about Kuniba's Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu? Well that is a joke and the "Ha" should be Ha-Ha! Japanese Shito is nothing like Mabuni Kenwa's Shito Ryu as taught on Okinawa. It's flippy, deeper stanced flying kick Shotokan. NOPE! It's like ShorinJi Ryu Renshinkan vs. Kyan inspired Shorinji Ryu. Wado is a style more closely related to its Okinawan cousin arts than any other Japanese ryuha.





			
				Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> What about Nisei Goju? Nope and nope! Are you talking about Kuniba's Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu? Well that is a joke and the "Ha" should be Ha-Ha! Japanese Shito is nothing like Mabuni Kenwa's Shito Ryu as taught on Okinawa. It's flippy, deeper stanced flying kick Shotokan. NOPE! It's like ShorinJi Ryu Renshinkan vs. Kyan inspired Shorinji Ryu. Wado is a style more closely related to its Okinawan cousin arts than any other Japanese ryuha.


 This is the second post of mine in the last 5 minutes you have jumped on. 
       What's with the bug up your back side?

       Did I say Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu?
       I dont think I did..........and I am fairly sure if I was referring to them I would have mentioned them by name.

 I think the Japanese Shito you are referring to is the Itosu kai style of Shito ryu located in Eastern Japan and not Mabunis version located in Western Japan. 

_Most people think of karate as being simply "karate", however, there are many styles of karate such as Goju-ryu, Kyokushinkai, Wado-ryu, Shorin-ryu, Shotokan, and Shito-ryu. To compound the matter further, there are substyles within the styles, such as Hayashi-ha, Itosukai, etc.

 Shito-ryu karate is probably the most popular form in West Japan. It was founded by Kenwa Mabuni who studied under Yasutsune Itosu. Mabuni also later studied under Kanryo Higashionna and later named his style of karate the Shito style, taking the first characters of each of his teacher's names. 'Shi' is the one of the Japanese readings for the character meaning "string" which is the first of the two characters which make up the name "Itosu". "Higashi" is the first character of Master Higashionna's name, which can also be read "to" in Japanese as it is in the characters for Tokyo. Master Mabuni combined them to get "Shito" as the name of his style.

* Kenwa Mabuni (1889-1952) brought his style of karate to Osaka in 1929 and concentrated on teaching it in universities in West Japan.*

 Another major figure in Shito-ryu karate is the present head of the Itosukai branch of Shito-ryu, Master Ryusho Sakagami born in April,1915 who founded the Itosukai in 1954.

_I actually met Ryusho Sakagami years ago and have to agree that his style leaned toward the Japanese-eque type Karate and was not very Okinawan in appearance.

 Also, given the fact that most karate dojo in Okinawa do some sort of Okinawan Kobudo as part of their training I would say the Mabuni style of Shito is more closely Okinawan since they still do Okinawan Kobudo and Wado Ryu/Kai does not. Hell, even the Itosu Kai version Shito does Okinawan Kobudo.
 Also of note is that there are more than a few Shito Ryu dojo in Okinawa.....I can't say the same for Wado ryu or kai. 


  Here is a link on Shito Ryu:

http://www.shitoryu.org/bios/kenei/kenei.htm


----------



## tshadowchaser

Thank you or those brief history lessons. It i always good to see some of the history given in threads


----------



## cas

Perhaps this link helps
http://seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-motobu2.html

Quote from this interview
" We talked a little about some of Choki Motobu's Japanese pupils, Hironori Ohtsuka, for example, the founder of Wado-ryu. Chosei said that Ohtsuka had not been a registered student of Choki Sensei, but he would study with him whenever he had the opportunity. Chosei agreed that occasionally you can see elements of Choki's technique in Ohtsuka's karate. Ohtsuka didn't teach Motobu's style, but he would take techniques and ideas from it and add these to his Wado-ryu. Regarding Yasuhiro Konishi, the founder of Shindo-Jinen Ryu karate, Chosei confirmed that he had been a great help to Choki Motobu in Japan, not just financially, but in promoting his cause and helping him to get his dojo established. There was also Sannosuke Uejima, a ju-jutsu instructor who had been one of Motobu's early students in the 1920s. Takeji Inaba had actually been to meet Uejima, who told him that when he had first gone to see Choki Motobu they had exchanged ideas on technique. Uejima recalled that each time he tried a move, Motobu would anticipate it, then neutralize or counter it. He seemed to do that almost instinctively, and Uejima was somewhat shocked by this. Uejima told Inaba that although many people said bad things about Choki Motobu, he really was an exceptional martial artist. "

What boggles me is this:
Ohtsuka sensei was a knowledgeable martial artist before starting karate practice. If Funakoshi sensei didn't have anything to add to his knowledge or skills why did train with/ under him in the first place?
If a teacher has nothing to teach you except for some forms without any explanation or insight in these forms why stick around (for 18 months or some years). If this was the case then surely one or two training sessions would have been enough to see there was nothing to gain?

have a good week,

Casper Baar


----------



## RRouuselot

cas said:
			
		

> .......
> What boggles me is this:
> Ohtsuka sensei was a knowledgeable martial artist before starting karate practice. If Funakoshi sensei didn't have anything to add to his knowledge or skills why did train with/ under him in the first place?
> If a teacher has nothing to teach you except for some forms without any explanation or insight in these forms why stick around (for 18 months or some years). If this was the case then surely one or two training sessions would have been enough to see there was nothing to gain?
> 
> have a good week,
> 
> Casper Baar


Good question......maybe some Wado folks can supply an answer.


----------



## TimoS

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> NOPE! It's like ShorinJi Ryu Renshinkan vs. Kyan inspired Shorinji Ryu.



I'm a bit confused about this statement. Are you saying Renshinkan is not Kyan inspired ? Or what are you saying ?


----------



## RRouuselot

TimoS said:
			
		

> I'm a bit confused about this statement. Are you saying Renshinkan is not Kyan inspired ? Or what are you saying ?


  Actually after looking at their website http://www.synapse.ne.jp/~renshin/index.html , which is pretty kool I might add, they seem to be EXTREMELY Okinawan in their approach to Karate. Maybe one of the closest I have seen in Japan. I am very interested in meeting some of these folks! Too bad they are located in Kagoshima.


----------



## TimoS

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Actually after looking at their website http://www.synapse.ne.jp/~renshin/index.html , which is pretty kool I might add, they seem to be EXTREMELY Okinawan in their approach to Karate. Maybe one of the closest I have seen in Japan. I am very interested in meeting some of these folks! Too bad they are located in Kagoshima.



I practise Renshinkan here in Finland and that's why I was confused about this statement  Because our lineage from Kyan is Zenryo Shimabukuro and Joen Nakazato to Isamu Tamotsu (and his student Motomu Ikubo is my sensei's sensei) and although my contact with Okinawan karate is limited to few visits per year to a Seibukan dojo near where my parents live, I haven't seen too much of a difference between these two styles (but, like I said, I don't have much contact towards Okinawan karate and besides, at 1. kyu I'm still very much a beginner)


----------



## RRouuselot

TimoS said:
			
		

> I practise Renshinkan here in Finland and that's why I was confused about this statement  Because our lineage from Kyan is Zenryo Shimabukuro and Joen Nakazato to Isamu Tamotsu (and his student Motomu Ikubo is my sensei's sensei) and although my contact with Okinawan karate is limited to few visits per year to a Seibukan dojo near where my parents live, I haven't seen too much of a difference between these two styles (but, like I said, I don't have much contact towards Okinawan karate and besides, at 1. kyu I'm still very much a beginner)


 I think the person that made that statement was either unclear in explaining what he meant or didn't research his information well. 

  So do you practice in the same manner with the Honbu in Kagoshima?
  (kata and sparring wise that is?)

 The reason I ask is because I am interested in knowing about styles that I have not been exposed to before. It's always nice to know what others are up to. :wink2:


----------



## TimoS

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> So do you practice in the same manner with the Honbu in Kagoshima?
> (kata and sparring wise that is?)




There seem to be some differences between us and Kagoshima. I've never been there, of course, but I've seen the current head of style, soke Iwao Tamotsu twice here in Finland, last time in July this year. Kata look a bit different from what we've been practising. Also the order they're taught seems to be different, for us it is: Wanshu, Ananku, Seisan and in Japan Seisan, Ananku, Wanshu. I _think_ this is because our sensei thought that Seisan is too difficult for beginners :idunno: Sparring is mostly the same, though: full contact with protectors on, although we've been told that the typical fighting distance in Japan is longer than here in Finland, but as I've never been to Japan or even in a match (so far, at least), I have to rely on hearsay on this  Oh well, maybe one day, although at 36 years I'm not sure if I even _want_ to enter a match


----------



## RRouuselot

TimoS said:
			
		

> There seem to be some differences between us and Kagoshima. I've never been there, of course, but I've seen the current head of style, soke Iwao Tamotsu twice here in Finland, last time in July this year. Kata look a bit different from what we've been practising. Also the order they're taught seems to be different, for us it is: Wanshu, Ananku, Seisan and in Japan Seisan, Ananku, Wanshu. I _think_ this is because our sensei thought that Seisan is too difficult for beginners :idunno: Sparring is mostly the same, though: full contact with protectors on, although we've been told that the typical fighting distance in Japan is longer than here in Finland, but as I've never been to Japan or even in a match (so far, at least), I have to rely on hearsay on this  Oh well, maybe one day, although at 36 years I'm not sure if I even _want_ to enter a match


 
Since this thread is about the effectiveness of karate and it's styles......do you think what you are doing is effective? Is there any area that you would like the style to improve upon?


----------



## RRouuselot

Here is another nice website that gives some insight on the relationship of Renshinkan and Mr. Kyan http://www.shoreikan.net/en/history.htm

Here is one with a linage chart http://www.shoreikan.net/en/familytree.htm


Ipponken, 

Do you have anything you would like to add to this discussion to support your views about the statement you made a few posts back about Kyan and Renshinkan??????


----------



## TimoS

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Since this thread is about the effectiveness of karate and it's styles......do you think what you are doing is effective? Is there any area that you would like the style to improve upon?



Especially the way we're taught here in Finland seems very effective to me. What would I like to have more.... Hmm, tough question, especially since I've only been doing this about three years, so my experience is still very limited, but let's say a bit more focus on fighting at close range. This could come with time, as I'm quite sure Matsuoi sensei knows this stuff  This is because at one of the clubs I practise, we have one guy who used to play football (not soccer) and he likes to wrestle, eventhough nobody else likes to. This guy is so bloody strong, not to mention heavy, that nothing I try seems to make any difference at all. So I would like to be able to quickly counter his grabs so I could escape 

One thing I forgot to mention previously about the differences between what is practised at e.g. Kagoshima and Finland is that in addition to our normal kata we practise also Pinan 1-5 and Naifanchi 1-3. Matsuoi sensei learnt these from Ikubo sensei (who he learnt them from, I don't know. I previously thought it was Shodai Soke Isamu Tamotsu, but this could be a misunderstanding on my part). Also our karate seems to me to have taken some influence from Tauramuso ryu kobujutsu, especially from the jujutsu part of the system (Ikubo sensei's pages (japanese only) can be found here), but also from the sword part


----------



## Ippon Ken

TimoS said:
			
		

> I'm a bit confused about this statement. Are you saying Renshinkan is not Kyan inspired ? Or what are you saying ?


Is it truly from Kyan Chotoku's lineage? Why the need to add Japanese MAs elements to it then? What about the deep stances, emphasis on jiyu kumite and high kicks. I didn't say it wasn't a good Japanese style, but it's definitely nothing like the Okinawan Shorinji Ryu I've seen. In fact my curent sensei has a strong Shorinji Ryu background and the other Kyan ryuha I've seen place the most emphasis on kata and 2-man drills, with limited sparring at the kyu ranks.

The horse stances those girls are doing on the site looks a lot like Japanese Shito Ryu or even Shotokan. So is it really an Okinawan Ryu?

All that aside dowhatchalike and have fun. I don't doubt it is an awesome style of Japanese karate. Peace.


----------



## RRouuselot

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> *1)Is it truly from Kyan Chotoku's lineage?* *2)Why the need to add Japanese MAs elements to it then?* *3)What about the deep stances, emphasis on jiyu kumite and high kicks.  4)I didn't say it wasn't a good Japanese style, but it's definitely nothing like the Okinawan Shorinji Ryu I've seen.* In fact my curent sensei has a strong Shorinji Ryu background and the other Kyan ryuha I've seen place the most emphasis on kata and 2-man drills, with limited sparring at the kyu ranks.
> 
> The horse stances those girls are doing on the site looks a lot like Japanese Shito Ryu or even Shotokan. So is it really an Okinawan Ryu?
> 
> All that aside dowhatchalike and have fun. 5*)I don't doubt it is an awesome style of Japanese karate. Peace.*


1. We have not seen anything to prove otherwise.....if you have some info to support your idea please share it.
2. Japanese are known for "Japanizing" everything they get a hold of. Look at the sword making techniques they imported from Korea, religion, cameras, Cars, etc....
3. NEWS flash for ya.....Some styles in Okinawa do deep stances, most do/did jiyu kumite, and as for the high kicks....well Kyan was famous for his ability to do high kicks. 
4. Maybe you haven't seen much Shorinji Ryu then......
5. Why do you doubt it? Have you ever trained with them? Ever seen them in person? Ever beat one of them? Do you always base your ideas about other arts you have limited or no exposure to?


----------



## RRouuselot

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> ........*In fact my curent sensei has a strong Shorinji Ryu background *and the other Kyan ryuha I've seen place the most emphasis on kata and 2-man drills, with limited sparring at the kyu ranks.


 
Oh really???? And whom might he be and from whom did he get his training?


----------



## TimoS

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> Is it truly from Kyan Chotoku's lineage?



Yep. Like I said before, Shorinji ryu Renshinkan's lineage to Kyan goes like this:

Chotoku Kyan -> Zenryo Shimabukuro & Joen Nakazato -> Isamu Tamotsu (and from him to us like this -> Motomu Ikubo -> Yuji Matsuoi). 



> What about the deep stances, emphasis on jiyu kumite and high kicks



Deep stances ? Our normal stance is quite high. I have practised, admittedly only a few times, with Shorin ryu Seibukan people and their stance is much deeper than ours.



> The horse stances those girls are doing on the site looks a lot like Japanese Shito Ryu or even Shotokan.



Yes, I've noticed that their stances are exceptionally deep. I don't know why, because at least we never use stances that are so deep. Even when doing kobudo, our stance is higher than that. Here are some old pictures from Matsuoi sensei's dojo of people practising kata. http://www.gnbukai.pp.fi/karate/karate_kuvia.htm


----------



## RRouuselot

timoS

    I dont know about you but I think *Ipponken* has either been grossly miss informed by someone(s) about many aspects of karate or he just has a bone to pick.......or both. Either way I have yet to see much much of what he writes to be supported by fact or any sort of foundation for possibility and if I were you wouldn't take the abuse and snide comments he slings too seriously.

 From what I can gather from the Kagoshima website what your doing looks like interesting. If it's effective then that is all that really counts at the end of the day.

_ I personally get tired of troglodytes on these boards that can only back up what they write/claim with insults and snide remarks instead of facts or some sort of information that lead them to such a belief. _


----------



## TimoS

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> timoS
> 
> I dont know about you but I think *Ipponken* has either been grossly miss informed by someone(s) about many aspects of karate or he just has a bone to pick.......or both. Either way I have yet to see much  much of what he writes to be supported by fact or any sort of foundation for possibility and if I were you wouldn't take the abuse and snide comments he slings too seriously.



Oh, I never take anything written online too seriously  But anyway, I am interested in his reasons. I don't want an argument, I just want a reasonable discussion and hopefully learn something from it 

The bad thing about these online discussions is that the tone of voice is not conveyed, so there are misunderstandings


----------



## RRouuselot

TimoS said:
			
		

> Oh, I never take anything written online too seriously  But anyway, I am interested in his reasons. I don't want an argument, I just want a reasonable discussion.
> 
> The bad thing about these online discussions is that the tone of voice is not conveyed, so there are misunderstandings


 Me too, but he never really gives a solid reason for why he says what he says. Too bad, the discussion would be more interesting and educational then.


----------



## wadokai_indo

cas said:
			
		

> What boggles me is this:
> Ohtsuka sensei was a knowledgeable martial artist before starting karate practice. If Funakoshi sensei didn't have anything to add to his knowledge or skills why did train with/ under him in the first place?
> If a teacher has nothing to teach you except for some forms without any explanation or insight in these forms why stick around (for 18 months or some years). If this was the case then surely one or two training sessions would have been enough to see there was nothing to gain?
> 
> have a good week,
> 
> Casper Baar


Maybe...At that time Otsuka sensei was very interested with Ryukyu Kenpo, and Funakoshi sensei was the only one available at the moment 

Off course this is just speculation.. don't take me too seriously!


----------



## Ippon Ken

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Oh really???? And whom might he be and from whom did he get his training?


Nunya, but he trained under Fusei Kise who was a 6th dan in Shorinjiryu at the time (in the 1960s).

What have I posted on here that was unfounded or not true? Go back and look at what I posted and tell me I was wrong about something. If you find any discrepancies then you know I'm fallible, but 99% of what I post is cor-frickin'-rect, Bobby Bogu!

Look he does Richard Kim-ish Shorinji Ryu, the Japanese flashy variety. That's that. I'm not saying it's not a good karate ryuha, just that it's not really Okinawan anymore, so stop saying it is. Yes Seibukan has schoolboy technique in their karate and so do most Okinawan karate brands. A good adult style of Okinawan karate uses realistic stances and techs. Just like good, functional Tai Chi uses more upright stances and a lot of whipping motion. Same, same.

Anyway, you guys do you and I'll do me. Now go pay 220 yen for a skinny arsed 4 ounce coke, Rob. 'Nuff said!


----------



## RRouuselot

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> 1)Nunya, but he trained under Fusei Kise who was a 6th dan in Shorinjiryu at the time (in the 1960s).
> 
> 2)What have I posted on here that was unfounded or not true? Go back and look at what I posted and tell me I was wrong about something. If you find any discrepancies then you know I'm fallible, but 99% of what I post is cor-frickin'-rect, Bobby Bogu!
> 
> Look he does Richard Kim-ish Shorinji Ryu, the Japanese flashy variety. That's that. I'm not saying it's not a good karate ryuha, just that it's not really Okinawan anymore, so stop saying it is. Yes Seibukan has schoolboy technique in their karate and so do most Okinawan karate brands. A good adult style of Okinawan karate uses realistic stances and techs. Just like good, functional Tai Chi uses more upright stances and a lot of whipping motion. Same, same.
> 
> Anyway, you guys do you and I'll do me. Now go pay 220 yen for a skinny arsed 4 ounce coke, Rob. 'Nuff said!


 
 1) nunya????Never heard of him. Kise Fusei.........I have met him and know several of his former students......I would not be proud to say I learned from him. 

 2)You throw out claims/comments and have nothing to persuade us to believe them. Its like me saying I saw the Loch Ness monster.......of course someone is going to say prove it.
     So if what you have posted is 99% correct then back it up with some sort of proof for those people that doubt you.



 I , as well as others, have noticed that when guys like you make claims that cant be coroborated you start getting defensive, calling people names, being rude etc.....


----------



## TimoS

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> Nunya, but he trained under Fusei Kise who was a 6th dan in Shorinjiryu at the time (in the 1960s).



What has Fusei Kise to do with Renshinkan ? I just read something about him, very briefly admittedly, and he seems to have trained in Seibukan at first, but there is no mention of Zen Nippon Shorinji ryu Renshinkan karatedo (the official name of Renshinkan). His own style seems to be Kenshinkan, so maybe you are confused by those two names ?


----------



## Ippon Ken

TimoS said:
			
		

> What has Fusei Kise to do with Renshinkan ? I just read something about him, very briefly admittedly, and he seems to have trained in Seibukan at first, but there is no mention of Zen Nippon Shorinji ryu Renshinkan karatedo (the official name of Renshinkan). His own style seems to be Kenshinkan, so maybe you are confused by those two names ?


Not Seibukan, Okinawan Shorinji Ryu. Nowadays he doesn't have such a good reputation. He used to be one of the most respected sensei on Okinawa. That was before the late 80s when his miindset and teaching methodology drastically changed ($$$$$$$$$). He did OKINAWAN Shorinji Ryu and you do JAPANESE Shorinji Ryu. HUUUUUGE difference! Like I said you do a great style, but it is not of the original intent.

Rob, what you have to understand is that Kise can still kick butt even at his advanced age. Just because he now concentrates on sport karate and making money doesn't mean he can't do the real stuff. He just doesn't teach it anymore. There was a time, like when my sensei first learned from him in the late 60s, that he was feared and respected. So say what you want about Kise, but everyone knows that most karate-ka could never compare with his knowledge and fighting ability, Okinawan or otherwise. He has been fighting for real and in the ring for many decades now, and a lot of modern teachers owe him a great debt of gratitude.

I didn't insult a damn body. I told the truth and what proof are you looking for? It's just words versus words. If you want truth we'd have to meet up and train together and see where each of us stands. You might not like that though as your truths might be shattered and with it your presumptuous MAs world. I know what is real and what is purported to be so. Gigantic difference!

Too much talkie-talkie, I have to go train...


----------



## RRouuselot

:-offtopic 



			
				Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> Not Seibukan, Okinawan Shorinji Ryu. Nowadays he doesn't have such a good reputation. He used to be one of the most respected sensei on Okinawa. That was before the late 80s when his miindset and teaching methodology drastically changed ($$$$$$$$$). He did OKINAWAN Shorinji Ryu and you do JAPANESE Shorinji Ryu. HUUUUUGE difference! Like I said you do a great style, but it is not of the original intent.
> 
> Rob, what you have to understand is that Kise can still kick butt even at his advanced age. Just because he now concentrates on sport karate and making money doesn't mean he can't do the real stuff. He just doesn't teach it anymore. There was a time, like when my sensei first learned from him in the late 60s, that he was feared and respected. So say what you want about Kise, but everyone knows that most karate-ka could never compare with his knowledge and fighting ability, Okinawan or otherwise. He has been fighting for real and in the ring for many decades now, and a lot of modern teachers owe him a great debt of gratitude.
> 
> *1)I didn't insult a damn body.* I told the truth and what proof are you looking for? It's just words versus words. If you want truth we'd have to meet up and train together and see where each of us stands. You might not like that though as your truths might be shattered and with it your presumptuous MAs world. I know what is real and what is purported to be so. Gigantic difference!
> 
> Too much talkie-talkie, I have to go train...


1) You should read through some of your old posts where you had no problem throwing out insults and slurs against people on here. Your teacher must be real proud of you. 

As for Kise I have heard both good and bad about him both from the physical side and moral side.


----------



## tshadowchaser

Gentlemen. this has been a very good and informative thread for the most part.

Lets keep it that way please.

Information is one thing trying to insult each other .  Lets just discuss systems and their teachers.


----------



## Saitama Steve

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> What have I posted on here that was unfounded or not true? Go back and look at what I posted and tell me I was wrong about something. If you find any discrepancies then you know I'm fallible, but 99% of what I post is cor-frickin'-rect, Bobby Bogu!
> 
> 
> Anyway, you guys do you and I'll do me. Now go pay 220 yen for a skinny arsed 4 ounce coke, Rob. 'Nuff said!



I have been reading this post for the past week. With great interest, since I don't have a lot of  experience in Okinawan Karatedo. These quotes above are really the only thing that has tarnished what has otherwise been a quite educational and enjoyable thread.

Now if these quotes above aren't condescending and insulting, I don't know what is. 

Oh and BTW Ippon Ken, a 500ml bottle of coke is 150 Yen. You should come over to Japan more often mate. 

Respect,


----------



## BlackCatBonz

all martial arts styles roads lead to the top of the same mountian.

shawn


----------



## Scout_379

> all martial arts styles roads lead to the top of the same mountian.
> 
> shawn


I've heard _that_ before. tru dat.


----------



## TimoS

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> Not Seibukan, Okinawan Shorinji Ryu. Nowadays he doesn't have such a good reputation. He used to be one of the most respected sensei on Okinawa. That was before the late 80s when his miindset and teaching methodology drastically changed ($$$$$$$$$). He did OKINAWAN Shorinji Ryu and you do JAPANESE Shorinji Ryu. HUUUUUGE difference!



Okinawan Shorinji ryu ? You mean Joen Nakazato's style ? I'm asking because after reading few webpages about Fusei Kise it was mentioned that he studied with Zenryo Shimabukuro. On the other, according to Seibukan history (here) he didn't study directly with Zenryo Shimabukuro

And yes, the style I practise is a Japanese style, no question about it, but as to the difference, what do you think they are ? Previously you said 



> ...the other Kyan ryuha I've seen place the most emphasis on kata and 2-man drills, with limited sparring at the kyu ranks.



Any other differences ? Because in my opinion this fits perfectly into how we're taught here in Finland. I cannot say anything about how others are being taught in different countries (including Japan), since I've never trained anywhere else, but in Finland Matsuoi sensei teaches us, again only my opinion, quite traditionally. For example "limited sparring at the kyu ranks". I'm 1. kyu and only now we've started having some lessons about kumite techniques and tactics.



> Like I said you do a great style, but it is not of the original intent



That is entirely possible, but what really _is_ the original intent ?


----------



## RRouuselot

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> all martial arts styles roads lead to the top of the same mountian.
> 
> shawn


 
Totally off topic......I just went to your website and noticed what I think is the kanji for "kuri" = chestnut at the top of your page. Is there any reason for that kanji?


Regarding the saying "all martial arts styles roads lead to the top of the same mountian."........well yes and no.......REAL arts do BS arts don't.


----------



## RRouuselot

TimoS said:
			
		

> ........Any other differences ? Because in my opinion this fits perfectly into how we're taught here in Finland. I cannot say anything about how others are being taught in different countries (including Japan), since I've never trained anywhere else, but in Finland Matsuoi sensei teaches us, again only my opinion, quite traditionally. For example "limited sparring at the kyu ranks". I'm 1. kyu and only now we've started having some lessons about kumite techniques and tactics..........


Timo, 

I dont think Ipponken has trained in, let alone seen, the style you practise and he is commenting on in Japan or Finland. Take it from someone who has lived and trained in Okinawa and Japan......from what I can tell of the description you and the other website have put forth it is very "Okinawan-esque". Having said that....not all dojo in Okinawa train the same way, some use deep stances some dont......some spar some dont.....Ipponken has a right to his own opinion, I am just wondering what exactly it is based on.......


----------



## BlackCatBonz

well......why would one refer to BS arts in the first place? 
for someone so wise, wouldnt that be obvious?

shawn


----------



## RRouuselot

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> well......why would one refer to BS arts in the first place?
> for someone so wise, wouldnt that be obvious?
> 
> shawn


 
 Because most people, even some martial artist, don't know the difference between BS arts and real arts.


----------



## Ippon Ken

Saitama Steve said:
			
		

> I have been reading this post for the past week. With great interest, since I don't have a lot of experience in Okinawan Karatedo. These quotes above are really the only thing that has tarnished what has otherwise been a quite educational and enjoyable thread.
> 
> Now if these quotes above aren't condescending and insulting, I don't know what is.
> 
> Oh and BTW Ippon Ken, a 500ml bottle of coke is 150 Yen. You should come over to Japan more often mate.
> 
> Respect,


Yeah I should. 

I'm being silly not insulting.

Oh and that coke quote is called "hyperbole".

No worries' bub'! 'Nuff respect back atcha!!!


----------



## BlackCatBonz

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Because most people, even some martial artist, don't know the difference between BS arts and real arts.


very true 

shawn


----------



## RRouuselot

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> Yeah I should.
> 
> *I'm being silly not insulting..........*


 
I think you are being both.


----------



## Ippon Ken

I apologize for both then. Does that make you feel better?


They're words man, and truths spoken from a singular perspective. Agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Timo: I don't doubt you do good Japanese karate. Like I said originally. It's like Motobu-Ha-Ha Shito Ryu. I mean that style is more "Ha" than Motobu for sure. Not to say it isn't good Japanese karate. It, just like Renshinkan, is not Okinawan karate. That's all I was saying. So what's the big deal? Be proud of what you do and know that just because I disagree with your assumption of what is Okinawan karate and what ain't, doesn't mean that I don't respect you and all good karate-ka.

At least I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Peace and happy training!


----------



## TimoS

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> Timo: I don't doubt you do good Japanese karate. Like I said originally. It's like Motobu-Ha-Ha Shito Ryu. I mean that style is more "Ha" than Motobu for sure. Not to say it isn't good Japanese karate. It, just like Renshinkan, is not Okinawan karate. That's all I was saying. So what's the big deal? Be proud of what you do and know that just because I disagree with your assumption of what is Okinawan karate and what ain't, doesn't mean that I don't respect you and all good karate-ka.



You know, I've never claimed that Shorinji ryu Renshinkan was Okinawan. What I've said that it is in Kyan lineage, and that is a fact. To me what is _much_ more important than training in an Okinawan style is the teacher and our sensei is very good at what he does.


----------



## RRouuselot

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> _*1)They're words man, and truths spoken from a singular perspective. Agree to disagree and leave it at that.*_
> 
> Timo: I don't doubt you do good Japanese karate. Like I said originally. It's like Motobu-Ha-Ha Shito Ryu. I mean that style is more "Ha" than Motobu for sure. Not to say it isn't good Japanese karate. It, just like Renshinkan, is not Okinawan karate. That's all I was saying. So what's the big deal? Be proud of what you do and know that just because_* 2)**I d*__*isagree with your assumption of what is Okinawan karate and what ain't,*_ doesn't mean that I don't respect you and all good karate-ka.


  1 & 2) That is what has been the point of several of my questions to you.
  What characteristics do you consider qualifies a style to be "Okianwan" and what doesn't?

 Concerning the phrase agree to disagree........whenever I have seen that written on these boards it has been written as a copout by people that cant support or convey their opinions with anything.


----------



## DRMiller

The most effective Karate style is whatever works for you to protect your life or the ones you love. It doesn't necessarily have to be oriental in nature and Martial arts are worldwide and come from every culture. Basic self defense skills can be effective in many situations. If your looking to be invinsible then forget it. That has nothing to do with a style there are many tough people on the streets that just grow up with the ability to do harm and have no formal training in Karate at all. Find one you like and put your best into it and it will be effective for you.


----------



## Ippon Ken

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1 & 2) That is what has been the point of several of my questions to you.
> What characteristics do you consider qualifies a style to be "Okianwan" and what doesn't?
> 
> Concerning the phrase agree to disagree........whenever I have seen that written on these boards it has been written as a copout by people that cant support or convey their opinions with anything.


Well I think homeboy answered that for you when he said that he "never claimed Renshinkan was Okinawan karate". He then said that it was from the Kyan lineage. Uh-huh. That's true for a lot of modern karate. That's like saying Japanese Shito Ryu and Shotokan are "Matsumura-Ha and Miyagi-Ha". C'mon now. You live on the mainland Robert. You get to see all the McDojo in Japan, well at least in parts of Tokyo.

If I see a Shorinji Ryu or Shorin Ryu looking style that is really concentraing on long and wide stances, or a lot of really acrobatic kicking, very little tuite, few 2-person drills and lots of point sparring I'm thinking "oh Japanese karate". That's that. If it's a Richard Kim-esque style of Shorinji Ryu, then it is basically no different than Nisei Shito Ryu or Shotokan to me. We're talking about Okinawan karate which I've been training in for over 20 years, both stateside and in SE Asia. I can tell a stylist in a quick minute. Do Naihanchi Shodan and I can tell what ryu/ryuha you're from. But like I said, good karate is good karate.

To be sure you do good karate, after you get Shodan enter another dojo of a different ryu and see what similarities and differences there are. Hohan Soken use to encourage his students to do this. From there you can guage if what you do is crap or OK. To get a different angle on Japanese vs. Okinawan ryuha do both at some time in your life. Look for teachers with great reps and train. See what you think you know. 

I don't need to back out of nothing bruh'. I know just as much about real Okinawan karate as you do, if not more. Quit jumping to conclusions and "somebody hold their horses"! 

Peace...


----------



## RRouuselot

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> 1)Well I think homeboy answered that for you when he said that he "never claimed Renshinkan was Okinawan karate". 2)He then said that it was from the Kyan lineage. Uh-huh. That's true for a lot of modern karate. That's like saying Japanese Shito Ryu and Shotokan are "Matsumura-Ha and Miyagi-Ha". C'mon now. You live on the mainland Robert. You get to see all the McDojo in Japan, well at least in parts of Tokyo.
> 
> 3)If I see a Shorinji Ryu or Shorin Ryu looking style that is really concentraing on long and wide stances, or a lot of really acrobatic kicking, very little tuite, few 2-person drills and lots of point sparring I'm thinking "oh Japanese karate". That's that. If it's a Richard Kim-esque style of Shorinji Ryu, then it is basically no different than Nisei Shito Ryu or Shotokan to me. We're talking about Okinawan karate which 4)I've been training in for over 20 years, both stateside and in SE Asia. I can tell a stylist in a quick minute. Do Naihanchi Shodan and I can tell what ryu/ryuha you're from. But like I said, good karate is good karate.
> 
> To be sure you do good karate, after you get Shodan enter another dojo of a different ryu and see what similarities and differences there are. Hohan Soken use to encourage his students to do this. From there you can guage (I think you mean gauge dont you?)if what you do is crap or OK. To get a different angle on Japanese vs. Okinawan ryuha do both at some time in your life. Look for teachers with great reps and train. See what you think you know.
> 
> I don't need to back out of nothing bruh'. 5)I know just as much about real Okinawan karate as you do, if not more. Quit jumping to conclusions and "somebody hold their horses"!
> 
> Peace...


 
  1) No he never did...in fact I dont think I read where ANYBODY on this thread said it was Okinawan.             
 2) And it was corroborated from several different sources that it was a Kyan linage.....prove its not if you dont think it is.
  3)Guess you dont get out much. I have seen exactly what you just described in several dojo IN  Okinawa. 
 4) Really? Where did you train, with whom and for how long? The only reason I bring it up is because you did. Will you grace us with this information? 
  5) Is that so..........?        

  Ipponken,

 Like several others on this BBs you get insulting & defensive when you cant prove what you claim or someone asks for more details about your posts or claims you make. If you want to be taken seriously I would suggest you starting supplying facts that can somehow be corroborated.


----------



## TimoS

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> Well I think homeboy answered that for you when he said that he "never claimed Renshinkan was Okinawan karate". He then said that it was from the Kyan lineage. Uh-huh.



You apparently still don't believe that Shorinji ryu Renshinkan is a karate style in Kyan lineage, at least that's how I read this.

Once again then. Here are some Kyan's students: Zenryo Shimabukuro, Joen Nakazato, Kori Hisataka, Shoshin Nagamine, Tatsuo Shimabukuro. There are more, but those are the ones I remember without checking. Here are some links that confirm this:
http://www.seibukan.org/history/kyan.html 
http://www.atlantickarateclub.ca/Zanshin/V02I02/art03.html
http://www.harryskelter.plus.com/kyan.html
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/history_of_the_martial_arts/98594

Shorinji ryu Renshinkan was founded by the late Isamu Tamotsu. He was a student of (at least) Zenryo Shimabukuro and Joen Nakazato. As to which kata he learned from which of his teachers is still something that is not totally clear. However, it is a fact that the official kata set of Renshinkan are Seisan, Ananku, Wanshu, Chinto, Gojushiho, Bassai and Kushanku (also Tokumine no kun and some Sai kata that I can't remember). According to official Renshinkan history, which is confirmed by the book written by Isamu Tamotsu's widow, Zenryo Shimabukuro only taught Tamotsu two kata, the rest came from Joen Nakazato. I know that Seibukan says otherwise, so who knows ? Irrelevant anyhow, because both sensei were students of Kyan

Some links once again:
http://www.shoreikan.net/en/history.htm 
http://www.seibukan.org/history/correct.html
http://www3.sympatico.ca/jeffrey.muir/jeffkdev.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/karateranks.htm
http://www.bakerracinekarate.com/

I have practised on occasion the Seibukan versions of Wanshu and Seisan, maybe also Ananku, can't be sure of that anymore and they are _very_ similar to what we're practising. Coincidence ? Hardly! I have not had the opportunity to see what Joen Nagazato's karate looks like, because it isn't practised here in Finland

Also, I don't know why you keep referring to Richard Kim all the time when talking about Renshinkan. Richard Kim's style has only one thing in common with what we're practising: the name Shorinji. 

If you have some *facts* that say otherwise about _anything_ I've said, I would definetely like to know them. 

And as for claiming to be Okinawan karate, here's what I said in post #46:



> Because our lineage from Kyan is Zenryo Shimabukuro and Joen Nakazato to Isamu Tamotsu (and his student Motomu Ikubo is my sensei's sensei) and although my contact with Okinawan karate is limited to few visits per year to a Seibukan dojo near where my parents live, I haven't seen too much of a difference between these two styles (but, like I said, I don't have much contact towards Okinawan karate and besides, at 1. kyu I'm still very much a beginner)



NOWHERE am I saying that Renshinkan is Okinawan, just that it is in my limited experience very similar to Shorin ryu Seibukan. Of course there are differences between them, but also there are similarities.


----------



## RRouuselot

TimoS said:
			
		

> NOWHERE am I saying that Renshinkan is Okinawan, just that it is in my limited experience very similar to Shorin ryu Seibukan. Of course there are differences between them, but also there are similarities.


 
 I have seen differences between schools of Shorin Ryu in Okinawa. So ipponkens argument doesnt really hold much water.


----------



## RRouuselot

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> .......*.1)You live on the mainland Robert. You get to see all the McDojo in Japan, well at least in parts of Tokyo.*
> 
> If I see a Shorinji Ryu or Shorin Ryu looking style that is really concentraing on long and wide stances, or a lot of really *2)acrobatic kicking*, very little *3)tuite,* few 2-person drills and lots of *4)point sparring I'm thinking "oh Japanese karate".*
> *  5)I know just as much about real Okinawan karate as you do, if not more.* *6)Quit jumping to conclusions and "somebody hold their horses"!*


       1) Actually I get to see many in Okinawa as well as Osaka and Kyoto.

 2) You mean like jumping up and kicking a bridge while standing on a barge that was floating under it??? Thats a stunt Kyan was famous for. :boing2:

 3) tuite is a word that was coined by my teacher many years ago by taking the Okinawan word tui (tori in Japanese) and the Japanese word te and combining them together. Not many dojo in Okinawa use this word let alone in Japan. And on that note not many dojo in Okinawa practice tuite. 

 4) At the last 3 World Tournaments in Okinawa the only sparring was point sparring almost identical to the "tippy tap crap" done on the mainland of Japan. 

       5) Obviously you dont or wouldnt have to write this down for you.

       6) My comments are based on your uninformed view.


----------



## RRouuselot

TimoS said:
			
		

> 1)Also, I don't know why you keep referring to Richard Kim all the time when talking about Renshinkan. Richard Kim's style has only one thing in common with what we're practising: the name Shorinji.
> 
> 2)If you have some facts that say otherwise about anything I've said, I would definetely like to know them.


 1) Maybe he is/was a Kim student.............

 2) Me too.


----------



## TimoS

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> lots of point sparring I'm thinking "oh Japanese karate".



One more point about this: yes, we do point sparring, but we do it full contact with armor, like in this picture or this. Here's another from the Renshinkan homepage itself or this from Ikubo sensei homepage.


----------



## RRouuselot

TimoS said:
			
		

> One more point about this: yes, we do point sparring, but we do it full contact with armor, like in this picture or this. Here's another from the Renshinkan homepage itself or this from Ikubo sensei homepage.


"Point sparring" in mainland Japan is not done full contact like in the photos you provided except for a very small handfull of dojo. The JKA/JKF do not do full contact sparring/tournaments. The sparring in the photos you put up are more like the type that is done "old style" dojo in Okinawa.....however, many dojo have gone over to to the "Japanese" style since they can enter more tournaments that way. Sad but true. I can't help but think that the art suffers from doing the "Japanese" style sparring. 
Thanks for posting the photos!


----------



## Ippon Ken

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> "Point sparring" in mainland Japan is not done full contact like in the photos you provided except for a very small handfull of dojo. The JKA/JKF do not do full contact sparring/tournaments. The sparring in the photos you put up are more like the type that is done "old style" dojo in Okinawa.....however, many dojo have gone over to to the "Japanese" style since they can enter more tournaments that way. Sad but true. I can't help but think that the art suffers from doing the "Japanese" style sparring.
> Thanks for posting the photos!


Alright. I'll admit it. You never said that Renshinkan was Okinawan, just that it derived from Kyan's karate. I misunderstood that part of your discussion.

Obviously Kyan was a noted kicker. Like Machimura he was wiry and athletic. So am I to understand that the Renshinkan is very similar to Seibukan? Cool. I learned something new. I never doubted your style, just that it was a Japanese style of karate.

Rob,
I'm sure you've seen a lot of crap karate in Japan. This includes Okinawa. FYI I trained for many years in the Philippines under the auspices of Shorin Ryu Shorinkan Okinawan Karate-do (Hanshi Shuguro Nakazato). My sensei was Ulysses Aquino. It too was a very athletic style, and we learned every kick imaginable. So I know what you speak of. We had pretty long and broad stances, and it was a very formals setting. In SD he emphasized hand techs and low kicks. In kumite we were pretty hardcore too.

Whatever. I switched to Matsumura Seito under Ron Lindsey and have been with that style for years now. I have never met a practitioner or teacher like him. He can definitely "practice what he teaches". Most of the karate I've seen was very unrealistic.. In fact Yuichi Kuda commented to Sensei Lindsey before he passed away that the only legit old school karate in the future would probably come from teachers like Suenaka, Lindsey and Ohl. Those are all shinshii outside of Japan or Okinawa. I think he was right.

Anyway, there you have it. I have yudansha ranking, and have done judo, boxing and GJJ. Sorry to Timo for being presumptuous. I know you're proud of what you do. As well you should be. It's great to see that others are dedicated to their art and selves. Safe training.


----------



## TimoS

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> "Point sparring" in mainland Japan is not done full contact like in the photos you provided except for a very small handfull of dojo. The JKA/JKF do not do full contact sparring/tournaments. The sparring in the photos you put up are more like the type that is done "old style" dojo in Okinawa.....however, many dojo have gone over to to the "Japanese" style since they can enter more tournaments that way. Sad but true. I can't help but think that the art suffers from doing the "Japanese" style sparring.
> Thanks for posting the photos!



Well, from what I've understood is that because Renshinkan kumite is full contact with protectors, they hold their own championships. There might be other reasons behind it also, because I remember sensei telling us once about history that in the beginning people would participate in "inter-style" championships, but that Renshinkan trained people were using some unorthodox techiques that the people (and judges) from other styles didn't like :idunno: I don't know how often people from Renshinkan participate in "regular" tournaments. I heard from my friends that Matsuoi sensei encouraged us to take part in them at least once to gain some experience (I was on summer vacation when he said this)


----------



## TimoS

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> So am I to understand that the Renshinkan is very similar to Seibukan?



My experience in Seibukan is very limited, but from the little I've seen, I think they are quite similar, at least the way Matsuoi sensei teaches. Kata are a bit different and our stance is higher. In fact, many of the senior Seibukan practitioners here in Finland started in Renshinkan, then for some reason decided to switch styles. I wasn't around when this happened, so I've only heard some information about the split, mostly second hand. I know one guy over at e-budo who used to be in Renshinkan and is now in Seibukan, but unfortunately it seems that he doesn't post here. He could give you more information about the differences and similarities


----------



## RRouuselot

TimoS said:
			
		

> Well, from what I've understood is that because Renshinkan kumite is full contact with protectors, they hold their own championships. There might be other reasons behind it also, because I remember sensei telling us once about history that in the beginning people would participate in "inter-style" championships, but that Renshinkan trained people were using some unorthodox techiques that the people (and judges) from other styles didn't like :idunno: I don't know how often people from Renshinkan participate in "regular" tournaments. I heard from my friends that Matsuoi sensei encouraged us to take part in them at least once to gain some experience (I was on summer vacation when he said this)


 Most Assoc. hold their own tournaments and "outside" styles are welcome to join if certain conditions are met....sometimes that means joining their association, (which is a royal pain in the butt in Japan....ask me in private if you want to know) sometimes it just means following their rules for the tournament.
 As with your style we do full contact fighting so if we were to go to each others tournament I doubt it would be difficult to adjust to each others rules. 
 Many styles do not like outside styles to join their tournaments because of judging discrepancies. I experienced this first hand when I was a JKF judge years ago. I judged the kumite and kata and during the kumite I didnt see much I could award a point to because of the non-contact style of fighting they do.


----------



## RRouuselot

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> .............Rob,
> I'm sure you've seen a lot of crap karate in Japan. This includes Okinawa. FYI I trained for many years in the Philippines under the auspices of Shorin Ryu Shorinkan Okinawan Karate-do (Hanshi Shuguro Nakazato). My sensei was Ulysses Aquino. It too was a very athletic style, and we learned every kick imaginable. So I know what you speak of. We had pretty long and broad stances, and it was a very formals setting. In SD he emphasized hand techs and low kicks. In kumite we were pretty hardcore too.
> 
> Whatever. *1)I switched to Matsumura Seito under Ron Lindsey and have been with that style for years now.* I have never met a practitioner or teacher like him. He can definitely "practice what he teaches". *2)Most of the karate I've seen was very unrealistic.*. *3)In fact Yuichi Kuda commented to Sensei Lindsey before he passed away that the only legit old school karate in the future would probably come from teachers like Suenaka, Lindsey and Ohl. *Those are all shinshii outside of Japan or Okinawa. I think he was right...........


 1) I and a few others were supposed to meet Ron when he came to Tokyo a few years ago but something happend and it all fell through. 

 2) Cant say as I disagree with that. I know some people try hard and think what they do is the real deal and thats great. But honestly speaking over the last 20+ years I have seen a LOT of different kind of martial arts and some are real crap.

  3) Nice compliment but I know more than a few people that are doing the REAL DEAL OLD SCHOOL Okinawan stuff.


----------



## Jussi Häkkinen

TimoS said:
			
		

> I know one guy over at e-budo who used to be in Renshinkan and is now in Seibukan, but unfortunately it seems that he doesn't post here.


Did someone mention me? 


 Hi Robert, Timo and other familiar lads.:asian:


----------



## Jussi Häkkinen

It seems that you have had an interesting (and heated) discussion about Renshinkan's history and origins.
   Renshinkan does belong to Kyan Chotoku's lineage and is technically close to Seibukan, which is an Okinawan school of Shorin-ryu karate, founded by Zenryo Shimabukuro, who was a student of Kyan Chotoku. I'll now cover a couple of claims about the kata history of Renshinkan.


   Claims about Renshinkan kata history:


 Claim 1:Isamu Tamotsu learned 2 kata from Shimabukuro (who, according to author, did not know any other kata than Ananku and Chinto), 2 from Joen Nakazato (mentioned are "bo-jutsu" and Chinto again) and Kusanku from Yonaha Seigyu. Other kata he did learn from various Okinawan teachers.

   Source: _Toshu Kuken, Isamu Tamotsu_, book by Sachie Tamotsu (wife of late Isamu Tamotsu).

 Status: False. Yonaha Seigyu was a folk musician, not a karateka. He had studied karate under Itosu when in school. Yonaha did work as an assistant in a karate organization (headed by Zenryo Shimabukuro), but wasn't a karate master or karateka. This is a common custom in Okinawa. (Yonaha Seigyu never had karate students and is also mentioned in Mark Bishop's book _Okinawan Karate - Teachers, styles and secret techniques_ as an Okinawan folk musician). 
 If Yonaha would have taught Tamotsu his Kusanku, it would have been a different version - not Chatan Yara no Kusanku, which is trained in Kyan's lineage (and in Renshinkan).


 Claim 2: (Style name issue) After learning two kata from Zenryo Shimabukuro, Isamu Tamotsu trained for 3 years under Joen Nakazato, learning Wanshu, Seisan, Gojushi-ho and Bassai. That's why style was named as Shorinji-ryu, instead of Shorin-ryu.

   Source: Finnish Renshinkan-sensei.

   Status: False. Finnish sensei has admitted that he came up with Nakazato's part by himself.
 Seibukan used the kanji for "Shorinji" in the time when Tamotsu studied karate under Zenryo Shimabukuro. It was only natural that Tamotsu-sensei continued using the name he had learned for the style.
   Seibukan changed the name from Shorinji-ryu to Shorin-ryu in mid-60's. Writing form still was (and is) Sukunaihayashi.


 Claim 3: Tamotsu trained under Zenryo Shimabukuro and learned the empty handed kata of Kyan, then learned Tokumine no Kun (bo-kata) from Joen Nakazato.

 Sources: Iwao Tamotsu (current head of Renshinkan), interview, year 2000. Zenpo Shimabukuro (son of Zenryo Shimabukuro, current head of Seibukan, remembers Isamu Tamotsu excellently). Joen Nakazato (Student of Kyan Chotoku, bo-teacher of Isamu Tamotsu, head of Shorinji-ryu Kyudokan), book _Kyudo_. Lineage chart on the wall of Shihogakusha dojo of Renshinkan (photo from 1960's), _Gekkan Karatedo_ magazine, interview of Isamu Tamotsu.

   Status: True.


 I think that this is enough to cover some misunderstandings that may have been created here about the history and status of Renshinkan. So, yes, Renshinkan does belong to Kyan Chotoku's lineage. Renshinkan is Japanese karate (not Okinawan karate) and the way it is practiced is rather clearly typical for Japanese karate, instead of the Okinawan, kata-centered, way.


----------



## TimoS

Jussi Häkkinen said:
			
		

> Did someone mention me?



Noooo, someone totally else :drinkbeer Welcome aboard Jussi


----------



## TimoS

Jussi Häkkinen said:
			
		

> Claim 2: (Style name issue) After learning two kata from Zenryo Shimabukuro, Isamu Tamotsu trained for 3 years under Joen Nakazato, learning Wanshu, Seisan, Gojushi-ho and Bassai. That's why style was named as Shorinji-ryu, instead of Shorin-ryu.
> 
> Source: Finnish Renshinkan-sensei.
> 
> Status: False. Finnish sensei has admitted that he came up with Nakazato's part by himself.



Thanks Jussi for that. As I've said to you, I've been wondering about especially that part, because it simply didn't make sense. But back when I wrote that last year, we were still part of Renshinkan so I didn't want to start an argument like the one on e-budo when I said that our Gojushiho in Finland is partially different from the one taught by Iwao Tamotsu  Fortunately we've separated ourselves from Renshinkan nowadays, so I don't have to be so careful anymore


----------



## Jussi Häkkinen

TimoS said:
			
		

> Thanks Jussi for that. As I've said to you, I've been wondering about especially that part, because it simply didn't make sense.


 My pleasure. After all, Renshinkan's history issue seems to be a Seibukan-issue as well, and I'm only pleased when I can help in separating fact and fiction.



> But back when I wrote that last year, we were still part of Renshinkan so I didn't want to start an argument like the one on e-budo when I said that our Gojushiho in Finland is partially different from the one taught by Iwao Tamotsu


 Heh, I understand that well. And I also understand the view of pure Renshinkanist when it comes to Finnish version, especially since the Finnish version was taught under the same name back then.



> Fortunately we've separated ourselves from Renshinkan nowadays, so I don't have to be so careful anymore


 Certainly makes everything more simple.


----------



## Ippon Ken

Thank you for those clarifications Hakkinen Shinshii. Your stuff is always on point and first rate.

So was I wrong again Rob? Uh-uh, bruh'. I don't think so. You tend to jump to conclusions yourself, and have many heated arguments on many forums. I think one of the most important attributes a martial artist can possess are keen powers of observation. It's funny that I totally know you, but you have no clue as to who I am. My posts are the same on all these sites, so you should have figured it out early on.

So why did your meeting with my sensei fall through? I'm sure you would have seen the REAL REAL DEAL OLD SCHOOL KARATE if you guys would have met. Oh and those bunkai for Naihanchi you had on e-budo? Stretching it is putting things mildly. When you do a cross-body armbar watch the placement of your legs, especially the one near the head. Make sure the arm is thumb towards the ceiling, and use more of a 45 degree angle and your hips. Squeeze the thighs.

My sensei was the president of Yuichi Kuda's Matsumura Kenpo org.. Kuda was also a senior student of Nakamura. Hence the kenpo moniker on his brand of Seito (a more Japanized sport version complete with Bogu sparring and whatnot). A better term for what Oyata coined would be ti or even kyushojutsu, and it's present to a greater degree in Matsumura Seito than it is in Okinawan Kenpo. 

Do you use the Niahanchi dachi when doing your Naihanchi (the pigeon-toed stance)? If not then you're missing a lot in your Naihanchi training. BTW I think that Japanese Shitoryu is basically like Shotokan, and that won't change because it is. Any style that uses deep wide stances, is not a truly effective self-preservation or even "punching/boxing/striking" system. It's gendai budo, Korean "karate" or modern wushu. It's good for money, perpetuating the philosophical essence of tang/sui hand and jiyu kumite, three very minor aspects of "empty-hand" which have become its primary focus.

So you post your real name and that makes you somehow more credible and a authority on real karate? Hahaha! Whateva' man! Keep doing you and I'll do me, but quit with the persumptuous behavior. You never know who you're talking too. I do one half of the art that your kenpo derived from. Remember, the element of surprise can be your greatest weapon.

Peace or Osu or whatever you Nipponese wanna-bes say.

Oh yeah. The best karate for self-preservation is real Okinawan karate. That ring crap means diddly except early arthritis, multiple surgeries and hope technique based on goho and forced action. Fighting for the sake of fighting before you have to fight to save your **** for real is stupid and, again, means nathan ("nothing" for you street vernacular challenged) except "kicking your own ***". Sport is highly overrated, just like any commercial enterprise. The Pedro Sauer BJJ guy who started this thread just wanted to diss karate-ka. He doesn't know any real karate styles or karate-ka so he should shut his trap and learn. Now go hug some sweaty guys like you were 8 years old all over again, and put karate out of your mind until you see some real stuff. O-B-L-I-V-I-O-U-S!!!


----------



## RRouuselot

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> 1) So was I wrong again Rob? Uh-uh, bruh'. I don't think so. You tend to jump to conclusions yourself, and have many heated arguments on many forums. *I think one of the most important attributes a martial artist can possess are keen powers of observation.* It's funny that I totally know you, but you have no clue as to who I am. My posts are the same on all these sites, so you should have figured it out early on.
> 
> 2) So why did your meeting with my sensei fall through? I'm sure you would have seen the REAL REAL DEAL OLD SCHOOL KARATE if you guys would have met.
> 
> 3) Oh and those bunkai for Naihanchi you had on e-budo? Stretching it is putting things mildly. When you do a cross-body armbar watch the placement of your legs, especially the one near the head.
> 
> 4) Make sure the arm is thumb towards the ceiling, and use more of a 45 degree angle and your hips. Squeeze the thighs.
> 
> 5) A better term for what Oyata coined would be ti or even kyushojutsu, and it's present to a greater degree in Matsumura Seito than it is in Okinawan Kenpo.
> 
> 6) So you post your real name and that makes you somehow more credible and a authority on real karate? Hahaha! Whateva' man! Keep doing you and I'll do me, but quit with the persumptuous behavior. You never know who you're talking too. I do one half of the art that your kenpo derived from. Remember, the element of surprise can be your greatest weapon. Peace or Osu or whatever you Nipponese wanna-bes say.
> 
> 7) Oh yeah. The best karate for self-preservation is real Okinawan karate. That ring crap means diddly except early arthritis, multiple surgeries and hope technique based on goho and forced action. Fighting for the sake of fighting before you have to fight to save your **** for real is stupid and, again, means nathan ("nothing" for you street vernacular challenged) except "kicking your own ***". Sport is highly overrated, just like any commercial enterprise. The Pedro Sauer BJJ guy who started this thread just wanted to diss karate-ka. He doesn't know any real karate styles or karate-ka so he should shut his trap and learn. Now go hug some sweaty guys like you were 8 years old all over again, and put karate out of your mind until you see some real stuff. O-B-L-I-V-I-O-U-S!!!


      1)Uh??? Whats up with the attitude?? When did I say you were wrong about anything? 

 2)Something on his end. I am not sure if he even came to Japan or not. All I know is there were some guys in Tokyo that were supposed to meet up and it got canceled. 

      3)Obviously you didnt read the whole thread. 

 4)I am well aware of how the technique is done. Actually you want to keep the thumb more down palm up since it keeps the elbow from being able to bend. With the thumb up they can try and do a bicep curl and weaken the technique. 
 You should have read the whole thread and would know I said the photos were posed to show possible interpretations of the kata and not meant to instruct. 


        5)Not sure what you are going on about here. 

      6)?????

      7)Thanks for your insightful comments. 









			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) I and a few others were supposed to meet Ron when he came to Tokyo a few years ago but something happened and it all fell through.
> 
> 2) _*Cant say as I disagree*_ with that. I know some people try hard and think what they do is the real deal and thats great. But honestly speaking over the last 20+ years I have seen a LOT of different kind of martial arts and some are real crap.
> 
> 3) Nice compliment but I know more than a few people that are doing the REAL DEAL OLD SCHOOL Okinawan stuff.


 
      I think if you use those keen powers of observation you talked about and re-read my post you will notice a few things. 



      2) *Cant say as I disagree with* =  I agree with you.

      3) I meant that was a nice thing for him to say to/about John but there are still some folks that do the old stuff 



      Honestly I am amazed that you got so pissed off over what I wrote.


----------



## Whitebelt

I don't know much about karate but the answer to you'r question is usualy the kind with the fewest practitioners.


----------



## TimoS

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> So was I wrong again Rob? Uh-uh, bruh'. I don't think so. You tend to jump to conclusions yourself, and have many heated arguments on many forums.



I don't know (nor do I really care) what you have against Robert, but I'm just curious as to what in Jussi's post made you think you were right ? Seems to me that Jussi basically confirmed what I was saying all along, that Renshinkan is not an okinawan style, it is japanese style and that it is close to Seibukan, at least technique-wise and that it belongs to Kyan lineage. As I see the argument, you were the one who had a hard time accepting those facts.

Not that it really matters to me anymore, since from beginning of this year we've split away from Renshinkan


----------



## TCA

I believe that there are probably some uneffective styles.  But, I believe as one matures in their fighting skills, the style become very personal.  We tend to adapt our punching, kicking, and throwing skills from what works with our physical abilities.  personally, my punching skills would have been honed from prior boxing.  My kicking would have come from tae kwon do.  My grappling from wrestling.  My point, it comes down to how much effort and physical ability you apply.  I doubt that there is a purist fighter out there (one who uses the skills only from the style taught).


----------



## Autocrat

Firstly... I'm damned impressed with the maturity of postings.... I llok at a lot of forums, and in most, this would have turned damned ugly by the bottom of page 1!

Secondly, I can't beleive how well thought out this thread is... serious answers to most things, without making it all personal.... and honest posts too!

OK, my views and opinions...
As for styles being better for real life situations, I believe any, and I do many any, of the original/traditional styles, and several of the younger forms are quite capable of flattening most people.  Even some of the sporting styles that have been born or bred also would do quite well.... the real deciders are the way that the karate is taught, and the way the person developes... I've sparred with people who have trained for years over me, are 2nd Dan or higher, and I've floored them with a simplistic, basic set of moves... then again, last Tuesday saw me get knocked on my A by a 11 year old girl because I misjudged her and walked into a knee kick!  (I'm never going to here then end of that, I swear!  I can still hear them all laughing!).

So, rather than a particular style, I'd say its how that style is taught and how that person reacts!


----------



## arnisador

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> The most effective Karate?I think that is a silly question.I mean no offense.I beleive the effectiveness relies on the individual student and individual instructor more than the style.


 I agree. Yet, all things considered, I have always felt that Okinawan karate styles are generally more effective than Japanese, as a rule. Of course, there are always exceptions!


----------



## evenflow1121

To the OP, that is truly a subjective question: I mean really that depends on you and what particular way of fighting you feel comfortable with.


----------



## andy

AT the risk of offending, I must say the quality of any given style is directly related to the practitioner. I think it's shortsighted to suggest any one system is better then another.I've seen excellant martial artists in terrible schools and terrible martial artists in great schools. It depends on your own heart, mind, and spirit how effective a "style" could be.
learn any system then make it your own--or not


----------



## arnisador

But do you feel that styles vary? Isshin-ryu, Shotokan, Wado-ryu, and Uechi-ryu have very different approaches...are they all equally good bases?

The style matters...how the person trains it matters more, but the style _does_ matter.


----------



## searcher

arnisador said:
			
		

> But do you feel that styles vary? Isshin-ryu, Shotokan, Wado-ryu, and Uechi-ryu have very different approaches...are they all equally good bases?
> 
> The style matters...how the person trains it matters more, but the style _does_ matter.


 
Yes, style does matter, but in a very minor way.    If you are going to get down to it most of the styles of today are just off-shoots of the original two, Shorin-ryu/Shuri-te and Tomari-te and Shorei-ryu/Naha-te.    Though there are differences they tend to be IMO a minimum, kata not withstanding.     Some may be better at certain techniques or have special forms that make them set apart from the others, but they all have these.    It is kind of like a group of house.  They may all have different outward appearances or things that make them unique, but when you get down to it they are all similar.   That may have been a bad analogy, but I think it makes some sense.

A persons build and their dedication will have more bearing on their ability to make the style work or not.   It has only a little bit to do with the specific style.


----------



## cfreeze

I studied under Ulysses O Aquino also;


----------



## chinto

I would suggest that any of the older Okinawan styles have proven many times that they are very effective in combat when its for real. but then so have many Chinese systems, and several Japanese jujitsu systems.  this also includes several systems from the Philippines, and Indonesia , and other places. 

for myself i chose a good solid traditional Okinawan system and I know it works when its for keeps for me.


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## Jackthekarateguy

I would go for a more okinawan influence, things like Goju or Shorin Ryu. It's all good but in my limited experience Okinawan styles tend to be in closer but it varies hugely from lineage to lineage...


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## spaced

It's not down to the style but the practitioner


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## chinto

In the end its the practitioner not the style.   That said one style may FIT one practitioner better because its more natural to his innate movement or mentality, and a different one for some one else. but either way some are more proficient do to natural aptitude and or ability with depth perception or coordination or what have you.   Either way the practioner is the overriding factor.  But I would say some styles are more easily used effectively in self defense then others.


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## Tired_Yeti

Littledragon said:


> I am basically asking what style is the best for self defense not what style is better than another. But we have to leap out of the traditional shell and face reality and say well which style is indeed better to hold up in the street?



From the beginning, karate was never meant to be locked into styles. That's a 20th century idea that came about when masters like Itosu wanted to make karate appealing to the Japanese public. On a side note, Gichin Funakoshi (founder of Shotokan) hated the idea of separating karate into styles and refused to participate to his dying day. He didn't name his art Shotokan; other people did that.

The point is that karate was always about studying to survive and be effective in a street fight. The past masters studied with each other and shared techniques and ideas. It was the students who came later (in the early 20th century) who began to essentially worship their style's master and lock that style down rigidly. Now we have all these styles and we look at one and say "it's THIS style and it's different from THAT style". The masters never intended that. They were 100% focused on and dedicated to surviving a real, life threatening street fight.

So...the most effective martial art is one that incorporates the most effective principles and techniques from a variety of styles and sources. One system will not work for everyone. You'll need to train in a system that has solid fundamentals and then modify and tweak it as you grow to make it effective for YOU.


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## JP3

TiredYeti... you can't be too tired if you went back three years to dig this one up!  Originally started in another decade! Goodness.  Isn't it interesting about how the exact same discussions/arguments come up over and over again?

I agree with you, the person who puts in practice is able to perform.


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## Charlemagne

Tired_Yeti said:


> The past masters studied with each other and shared techniques and ideas. It was the students who came later (in the early 20th century) who began to essentially worship their style's master and lock that style down rigidly.



Interesting points.  When I read anything on the history of Karate, it always seems that there is mention of people training with each other as they traveled around, etc, which would seem to support your assertions.  A similar attitude can be found today in arts such as BJJ, where many, if not most, instructors have a "train with everyone" mentality.


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## Tired_Yeti

Charlemagne said:


> Interesting points.  When I read anything on the history of Karate, it always seems that there is mention of people training with each other as they traveled around, etc, which would seem to support your assertions.  A similar attitude can be found today in arts such as BJJ, where many, if not most, instructors have a "train with everyone" mentality.



Yes, and Bruce Lee was very openly supportive of this way of study too. In his book The Tao of Jeet Kune Do, he talks about things like western boxing having the most effective punches so he studied their punches, etc.
IMO, martial arts isn't that different from music. The best musicians play with everyone they can and share ideas to learn knew techniques, etc. Personally, I think it's good to learn a solid, well-rounded system with effective fundamentals and then "update" our learning by studying with people from other systems. No system is perfect so I think it's best to try to "go to the experts" and try to get the best of everything. Boxing has great punches, Taekwondo has great kicks, jujitsu has great throws and joint locks, etc. I mean it would take years but I'm just saying gradually to refine our own art to be well rounded.


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## Tired_Yeti

JP3 said:


> TiredYeti... you can't be too tired if you went back three years to dig this one up!  Originally started in another decade! Goodness.  Isn't it interesting about how the exact same discussions/arguments come up over and over again?
> 
> I agree with you, the person who puts in practice is able to perform.



I blame Tapatalk. I didn't know this was a necro-thread. Sorry for the resurrection.


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## MAfreak

Littledragon said:


> What Do You Think Are The Most Effective Karate Styles?



i'd say goju ryu because it includes ground fighting; allows it in its "sparring" style (irikumi) and does light contact as well as full contact.


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## Charlemagne

MAfreak said:


> i'd say goju ryu because it includes ground fighting...



I've seen others, such as Ian Abernathy, make the claim that Okinawan Karate included ground fighting, but I have never seen a shred of evidence.  Most of the long time traditional Karate practitioners that I know of completely discount that claim.  If you have evidence of such a thing, I would be interested in seeing it.


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## TimoS

Tired_Yeti said:


> From the beginning, karate was never meant to be locked into styles. That's a 20th century idea that came about when masters like Itosu wanted to make karate appealing to the Japanese public


Well, yes and no. Back in the days of let's say Itosu, Kyan and others, there already kind of were styles. They were just whatever each master happened to teach and how he did the kata he was taught and not organised into styles and schools. For example, Kyan and Chibana were (kind of) contemporaries, but their karate was very different from each other, which isn't that hard to understand, after all, they had different teachers. And as for the travelling and learning from each other, sure, that happened, but probably only within a limited area. The travelling back in e.g. early 20th century between towns/villages wasn't that easy, so they most likely trained mainly with those who happened to live relatively close. This, IMO, is also evidenced by the fact that almost none of the kata of what became Goju ryu can be seen in what became Shorin ryu and vice versa.


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## Tez3

Charlemagne said:


> I've seen others, such as Ian Abernathy, make the claim that Okinawan Karate included ground fighting, but I have never seen a shred of evidence.  Most of the long time traditional Karate practitioners that I know of completely discount that claim.  If you have evidence of such a thing, I would be interested in seeing it.




You say Iain is 'claiming' karate included ground fighting, why don't you read up his proof? he has plenty of it. Then try training with him rather than sneering.
Just because some people discount it doesn't mean they are correct.


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## Charlemagne

Tez3 said:


> You say Iain is 'claiming' karate included ground fighting, why don't you read up his proof? he has plenty of it. Then try training with him rather than sneering.
> Just because some people discount it doesn't mean they are correct.



I've read Ian's article.  And yes, he is claiming it.  Others discount this claim.  It is not an insult for me to say that.  He might be right, and he might be wrong.  I honestly do not know.  Just because he claims it does not mean he is correct either.  

In addition, I didn't sneer. I invited the person to whom I responded to share any evidence he might have, and stated honestly that I would be interested in seeing it.  I was hopeful that the person I responded to might have something that I wasn't aware of.


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## Tez3

Charlemagne said:


> I've read Ian's article



Article, singular? he has written more than one article on it. Instead of asking someone else to respond why don't you ask Iain himself.? this information is freely available on his website where his other articles are btw. He also responds on his forum.
*E-Mail*:  info@iainabernethy.com
*Mail*: Iain Abernethy Ltd, PO Box 38, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 0GS, United Kingdom
*Telephone*: UK: 01900829406 / International: +441900829406

As for not sneering this would indicate otherwise.


Charlemagne said:


> but I have never seen a shred of evidence.


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## Charlemagne

Tez3 said:


> Article, singular? he has written more than one article on it. Instead of asking someone else to respond why don't you ask Iain himself.? this information is freely available on his website where his other articles are btw. He also responds on his forum.
> *E-Mail*:  info@iainabernethy.com
> *Mail*: Iain Abernethy Ltd, PO Box 38, Cockermouth, Cumbria, CA13 0GS, United Kingdom
> *Telephone*: UK: 01900829406 / International: +441900829406



I asked the person who made the post.  That is kind of how forums work.



> As for not sneering this would indicate otherwise.



That was not sneering, that was a statement that I have not seen any evidence.


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## Tez3

Charlemagne said:


> I asked the person who made the post.  That is kind of how forums work
> 
> That was not sneering, that was a statement that I have not seen any evidence.



'Not a shred of evidence' implies you think someone is lying , otherwise you would have just said no evidence'

Strange that you want someone else to answer a question that can best be answered by Iain himself though. As you challenged Iain's statements it would be logical to want an answer from the horse's mouth as it were. Of course if he proved you wrong that wouldn't be too good.


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## Charlemagne

Tez3 said:


> 'Not a shred of evidence' implies you think someone is lying , otherwise you would have just said no evidence'


  I said that I had not seen a shred of evidence, not that it does not exist.  There is a difference.  That is why I asked the person who I responded to to share anything he might have.  

As for the rest, I recognize that things don't always come across clearly in conversations online due to a lack of nonverbal cues, but you might try letting me tell you what I meant by what I said, rather than you telling me.



> Strange that you want someone else to answer a question that can best be answered by Iain himself though. As you challenged Iain's statements it would be logical to want an answer from the horse's mouth as it were. Of course if he proved you wrong that wouldn't be too good.


  No, it isn't strange.  I responded to someone on a forum.  There is nothing strange about that at all.  In addition, there is noting to prove me wrong about. At no time did I say that Karate did not include ground fighting, and I did not challenge Iain's statements on anything.  I said that I had not seen evidence of it, and that learned Karateka that I know dispute the claim.   I've already admitted that I honestly do not know the answer.  If Iain want's to come here and chime in, I welcome it.  If not, perhaps the person who I actually responded to will share something.


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## Buka

To the OP's question, does "effective" refer to fighting? if so, I imagine it would be a Karate style that fights. 

Does "effective" refer to self defense? If so, I imagine it would be a Karate style that trains self defense.

Easy, peasy, Japanesy.


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## Tez3

Charlemagne said:


> No, it isn't strange. I responded to someone on a forum.



and you will wait a very long time for that answer as he has very particular views on martial arts at the best of times. As you say it's a forum and everyone can answer your post if they wish, this thread started 12 years ago and has been resurrected long after it ran out of things to say.


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## Charlemagne

Tez3 said:


> and you will wait a very long time for that answer as he has very particular views on martial arts at the best of times. As you say it's a forum and everyone can answer your post if they wish, this thread started 12 years ago and has been resurrected long after it ran out of things to say.



He can respond, or not, as he likes.  As for the rest, I never said that someone else could not respond to my post. And I can read the date just like you, so I am aware that the thread was resurrected.


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## Tez3

Charlemagne said:


> He can respond, or not, as he likes.  As for the rest, I never said that someone else could not respond to my post. And I can read the date just like you, so I am aware that the thread was resurrected.



You didn't seem to like that I replied though telling me it was a response for one poster. You didn't mention which one of Iain's articles you had read, he's written many and a book on groundwork/grappling/throws etc in karate and if you take the time to look at his videos and podcast of his Bunkai you will see what he is saying. Many instructors even senior ones believe kata is only done for it's own sake not for the Bunkai it contains, so for them there is nothing else in kata.


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## Tames D

Tez3 said:


> You didn't seem to like that I replied though telling me it was a response for one poster. You didn't mention which one of Iain's articles you had read, he's written many and a book on groundwork/grappling/throws etc in karate and if you take the time to look at his videos and podcast of his Bunkai you will see what he is saying. Many instructors even senior ones believe kata is only done for it's own sake not for the Bunkai it contains, so for them there is nothing else in kata.


Give it a rest. Stop badgering him.


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## Charlemagne

Tez3 said:


> You didn't seem to like that I replied though telling me it was a response for one poster.



Again, that is not what I said.  When you asked me to track down Iain or to go train with him, I responded that I inquired from the person that made the comment on the forum in the hopes that he would provide information since he had made the claim.  At no time did I take issue with your replying to my post.  I took issue with your characterization of what I said, and the manner in which you said it.


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## Tez3

You see, there it is again 'the claim', I took issue with the way you worded it before making it seem as if Iain was not telling the truth, it may not be what you want to hear but he is a genuine scholar and martial artist who spends a tremendous amount of time and work on what he does, to hear it reduced in the way you did does him a huge disservice whether to not you agree with him and it is an agreement or not, it isn't whether he's telling the truth or 'making claims'. When people think someone isn't telling the truth they invariable say that person is 'making claims', they don't say 'in his opinion', then you compound it by saying there's not a shred of evidence when many others other than Iain have written about grappling/wresting/groundwork in karate.  Even Funakoshi has written about grappling in karate. Look too at Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder's writing and books on kata.

Ps it's Abernethy.


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## Charlemagne

Tez3 said:


> You see, there it is again 'the claim', I took issue with the way you worded it before making it seem as if Iain was not telling the truth...


 Again, you are not reading what I said, you are reading what you want to see and projecting that on me.  I never implied that he did not tell the truth.  I have admitted freely and multiple times that I honestly do not know the answer to the question.  However, it _is_ possible to be wrong about something, and not tell a lie in the process.  People of good will can make mistakes and disagree, and be honest the entire time while doing so.  

You could have been helpful and posted material that contains actual evidence at any time, but you have chosen not to do so.  I have tried being reasonable with you and only attack your argument rather than you as a person.  That has obviously not worked.  As such, you have the honor of being the first person in a very long time on any forum to be placed on my _ignore_ list.  

You can have the last word.  Write whatever response back you like.  I won't see it.  

So much for the "friendly martial arts forum".


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## Tez3

Oh dear, how sad, never mind.


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## JR 137

Charlemagne said:


> Again, you are not reading what I said, you are reading what you want to see and projecting that on me.  I never implied that he did not tell the truth.  I have admitted freely and multiple times that I honestly do not know the answer to the question.  However, it _is_ possible to be wrong about something, and not tell a lie in the process.  People of good will can make mistakes and disagree, and be honest the entire time while doing so.
> 
> You could have been helpful and posted material that contains actual evidence at any time, but you have chosen not to do so.  I have tried being reasonable with you and only attack your argument rather than you as a person.  That has obviously not worked.  As such, you have the honor of being the first person in a very long time on any forum to be placed on my _ignore_ list.
> 
> You can have the last word.  Write whatever response back you like.  I won't see it.
> 
> So much for the "friendly martial arts forum".



When dealing with people like this, I'm reminded of a quote I once saw in a pub I used to frequent...

I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.
- Edward Gibbon

It puts things into perspective for me.


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## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> When dealing with people like this, I'm reminded of a quote I once saw in a pub I used to frequent...
> 
> I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.
> - Edward Gibbon
> 
> It puts things into perspective for me.




and I would remind you that when people speak of instructors etc with disrespect here that they are often people instructors and personal friends, loyalty means passionate responses and if people are feeling 'hurt' by that perhaps they should phrase their comments less contentiously/ambiguously.


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## Tames D

He wa


Tez3 said:


> and I would remind you that when people speak of instructors etc with disrespect here that they are often people instructors and personal friends, loyalty means passionate responses and if people are feeling 'hurt' by that perhaps they should phrase their comments less contentiously/ambiguously.


He was never disrespectful. You however...


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## MAfreak

Charlemagne said:


> I've seen others, such as Ian Abernathy, make the claim that Okinawan Karate included ground fighting, but I have never seen a shred of evidence.  Most of the long time traditional Karate practitioners that I know of completely discount that claim.  If you have evidence of such a thing, I would be interested in seeing it.



google is your friend, but anyway some examples:




and




and
Google Übersetzer


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## Charlemagne

MAfreak said:


> google is your friend, but anyway some examples:



Thanks.  I had seen some videos like that before.  When I said "evidence" perhaps I wasn't clear.  What I was getting at was evidence of a kind that can be documented via the historical method, or something approximating that.  Sorry for any confusion.


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## Tez3

Karate Grappling: Did It Really Exist? | World Combat Association.com
Tegumi - Karate's Forgotten Range | Iain Abernethy
Tegumi – Okinawan Grappling and Wrestling
Karate on the Ground | Iain Abernethy
Tegumi - Karate's Forgotten Range | Iain Abernethy

_"When they spoke later Kano Sensei asked, "Are there ne-waza (ground fighting techniques) in karate?" Miyagi explained that there are, along with nage waza (throwing techniques), shime waza (choking techniques) and gyaku waza (joint locking techniques). He then demonstrated some examples explaining the continual importance of harmonizing and focusing the breath. Kano was surprised to find that karate was much more than just punching and kicking techniques, but that it encompassed the depth of a complete martial art."_ – *The History of Karate, Okinawan Goju-Ryu, Morio Hiagonna*


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## MAfreak

the googe translated german website at the end is from a school in morio higonnas federation.
what is historical? karate is not even 100 years old.


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## Tired_Yeti

Charlemagne said:


> I've read Ian's article.  And yes, he is claiming it.  Others discount this claim.  It is not an insult for me to say that.  He might be right, and he might be wrong.  I honestly do not know.  Just because he claims it does not mean he is correct either.
> 
> In addition, I didn't sneer. I invited the person to whom I responded to share any evidence he might have, and stated honestly that I would be interested in seeing it.  I was hopeful that the person I responded to might have something that I wasn't aware of.



There may be no grappling in SPORT karate (Taekwondo, etc.) but Iain Abernethy, for example, studies traditional karate. Since many, if not most, fights go to the ground--and in light of the fact that originally karate was for fighting and self-defense in real-world situations, it makes absolutely no sense that there would be no grappling in karate. The past masters would have known that grappling is a necessary skill set to survive a real fight. Grappling can be seen in some of the katas also.

The idea that there is no grappling in karate makes no sense at all--none. 


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## Tez3

Tired_Yeti said:


> There may be no grappling in SPORT karate (Taekwondo, etc.) but Iain Abernethy, for example, studies traditional karate. Since many, if not most, fights go to the ground--and in light of the fact that originally karate was for fighting and self-defense in real-world situations, it makes absolutely no sense that there would be no grappling in karate. The past masters would have known that grappling is a necessary skill set to survive a real fight. Grappling can be seen in some of the katas also.
> 
> The idea that there is no grappling in karate makes no sense at all--none.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk



Agreed and kudos to you for spelling Iain's name right lol! Wish I could like *and* agree with your post!


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## senseiblackbelt

hedgehogey said:


> Kyokushin-kai and it's offshoots (esp. shidokan) by far. The full contact tournaments are a huge advantage, though they dissalow punches to the face.
> 
> Shotokan doesn't hold full contact tourneys.




what are tourneys....?


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## Tez3

senseiblackbelt said:


> what are tourneys....?



Competitions/tournaments. It's quite an old fashioned word, not used a lot these days.


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## Charlemagne

Tired_Yeti said:


> There may be no grappling in SPORT karate (Taekwondo, etc.) but Iain Abernethy, for example, studies traditional karate. Since many, if not most, fights go to the ground--and in light of the fact that originally karate was for fighting and self-defense in real-world situations, it makes absolutely no sense that there would be no grappling in karate. The past masters would have known that grappling is a necessary skill set to survive a real fight. Grappling can be seen in some of the katas also.
> 
> The idea that there is no grappling in karate makes no sense at all--none.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk



I don't disagree.  I have no problem with the idea of throws, joint locks, and takedowns, etc. in Karate.  It's the idea of ground fighting I find suspect.


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## Charlemagne

MAfreak said:


> the googe translated german website at the end is from a school in morio higonnas federation.
> what is historical? karate is not even 100 years old.



Then one would think it would be easy to show via actual texts/manuals rather than a reinterpretation of kata.


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## Tez3

Charlemagne said:


> Then one would think it would be easy to show via actual texts/manuals rather than a reinterpretation of kata.



LOL, well if you hadn't taken umbrage and put me on ignore you would have seen the many texts and manuals I've already posted up. They are very readily available, can be found easily ...for those who want to read them of course. If your mind is already made up, well, no amount of writing is going to prove anything to you.


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## Paul_D

Charlemagne said:


> Again, you are not reading what I said, you are reading what you want to see and projecting that on me.  I never implied that he did not tell the truth.


I beg to differ; you said and I quote "Most of the long time traditional Karate practitioners that I know of completely discount that claim."  That is, however you want to dress it up, an implciaiton that he is incorrect, and therefore lying.


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## Buka

Effective? I don't know, probably comes down to the dojo rather than the style.


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## Red Sun

I'm quite fond of Isshin Ryu and Goju Ryu. Now, if i could just live near a dojo~


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## Mdwilson

Kassaki -Kai I believe is one that is trying to keep it real.


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## Tez3

Mdwilson said:


> Kassaki -Kai I believe is one that is trying to keep it real.



Ah, is that the one with all the videos, books and seminars for sale?


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## Charlemagne

Paul_D said:


> I beg to differ; you said and I quote "Most of the long time traditional Karate practitioners that I know of completely discount that claim."  That is, however you want to dress it up, an implciaiton that he is incorrect, and therefore lying.



Uh, no.  One can easily be incorrect and be sincere at the same time.  In fact, it happens all the time.  Being wrong does not imply being a liar.


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## Sojobo

Tez3 said:


> Ah, is that the one with all the videos, books and seminars for sale?


It's Vince Morris's group.


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## Tez3

Sojobo said:


> It's Vince Morris's group.



it's Kissaki Kai and their site is full of ads for their videos, books, seminars and on line learning stuff. for someone who has supposedly done so much in the UK it seems strange I've never heard of him.


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## Mdwilson

Tez3 said:


> it's Kissaki Kai and their site is full of ads for their videos, books, seminars and on line learning stuff. for someone who has supposedly done so much in the UK it seems strange I've never heard of him.



He's been around a while. More popular in Europe. There's a Shotokan / Kassakai Kai dojo in Lake Havasu City I've been thinking about training with.


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## Tez3

Mdwilson said:


> He's been around a while



So have I!


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## Sojobo

I believe he now lives in the US and has done for some time.

He was one of Asano sensei's students in the 1960s.


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## Mdwilson

Tez3 said:


> So have I!



So.. Are you going to look his dojo up in the UK?


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## Tez3

Mdwilson said:


> So.. Are you going to look his dojo up in the UK?



I know people think the UK is small but the nearest classes by one of their instructors is at the other end of the country to me and I don't plan on driving 8 hours for karate in a different style. I've been training for many, many years. According to the website Vince Morris lives in France. I shan't be doing the seminars nor buying the books and videos either. I especially don't need the 'police' tactics ones nor the monthly video classes. Sorry but really not my thing.

Kissaki-Kai Karate-Do


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## Mdwilson

Well if he lives in France that would be quite a stretch .


----------

