# Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive



## PhotonGuy (Dec 7, 2021)

Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners. Im saying this because I've experienced some of that on this forum myself.


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## lklawson (Dec 7, 2021)

Now define what a McDojo is and get everyone to agree with your definition.

Or... you could just throw up your hands and realize that some people are going to be offended, regardless.

Aren't you kind of tired of always walking on eggshells, wondering if some off-hand comment that seems innocuous to you someone else is going to claim offense at?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## frank raud (Dec 7, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners. Im saying this because I've experienced some of that on this forum myself.


What if the dojo in question ticks off every box in the definition of a McDojo? Does it now become offensive to tell the truth? Should we encourage people to continue to work hard towards their 17th belt on the way to black belt mastery? Should we point out the fuchsia camo belt is not really traditional in Korean Shaolin Kung fu?


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 7, 2021)

My definition of McDojo's would need this guy in the front of the Dojo as the Grandmaster


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## Steve (Dec 7, 2021)

If it's meant to be insulting and critical, we shouldn't be too surprised if the person to whom it's directed is insulted.


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## Kuengi (Dec 7, 2021)

Many MA schools in America fail as a business entity. This is due to more than one thing, as is usual. The first is trying to satisfy the requirements of requisite oppressively expensive insurance. America is a land where the litigious and their attorneys have the greatest impact on schools of integrity in teaching a Martial Art. Signing a release of liability means nothing in court when being sued for an injury received. There is little to no accountability for one's own choices in these times, and to claim that one did not know there would be forceful physical contact in learning a fighting skill is unfortunately a common successful claim against MA schools. So to fill a room, many proprietors keep it very soft and pander to children's games. It might be considered a very soft, very slow way to introduce ones self to MA, but the inference of "McDojo, Take my Do," and others has arisen from a degree of honest appraisal. It is not polite or respectful, however.


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## Steve (Dec 7, 2021)

Kuengi said:


> Many MA schools in America fail as a business entity. This is due to more than one thing, as is usual. The first is trying to satisfy the requirements of requisite oppressively expensive insurance. America is a land where the litigious and their attorneys have the greatest impact on schools of integrity in teaching a Martial Art. Signing a release of liability means nothing in court when being sued for an injury received. There is little to no accountability for one's own choices in these times, and to claim that one did not know there would be forceful physical contact in learning a fighting skill is unfortunately a common successful claim against MA schools. So to fill a room, many proprietors keep it very soft and pander to children's games. It might be considered a very soft, very slow way to introduce ones self to MA, but the inference of "McDojo, Take my Do," and others has arisen from a degree of honest appraisal. It is not polite or respectful, however.


Do you think the same is true for wrestling teams or Judo teams?   Do you think every style feels the same pressure to "keep it soft and pander?"


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## Kuengi (Dec 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> Do you think the same is true for wrestling teams or Judo teams?   Do you think every style feels the same pressure to "keep it soft and pander?"


We were referring to "Dojo" schools ('generic' in general), you use the word, "team". A dear friend of mine is an Olympic Judo medalist, that was the USA Judo Team. They trained mercilessly. That said, he also trained during a time that, when you entered a place to learn any MA, you knew what you were getting into and whining was far less acceptable; I truly believe a Judge would have laughed you out of court. Times have changed in the US. When I have trained outside of the US, I got the worst (or best) of it as an American, but also only a little more than other students, they knew why they were there and accepted the fact that they were very likely to get hit. You also only refer to grappling arts. I do not believe that "style" has anything to do with it, it is a fact in America that it is most difficult to study seriously at all, but I do know that ALL should be studied, and seriously.


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## lklawson (Dec 7, 2021)

Kuengi said:


> We were referring to "Dojo" schools ('generic' in general), you use the word, "team". A dear friend of mine is an Olympic Judo medalist, that was the USA Judo Team. They trained mercilessly. That said, he also trained during a time that, when you entered a place to learn any MA, you knew what you were getting into and whining was far less acceptable; I truly believe a Judge would have laughed you out of court. Times have changed in the US. When I have trained outside of the US, I got the worst (or best) of it as an American, but also only a little more than other students, they knew why they were there and accepted the fact that they were very likely to get hit. You also only refer to grappling arts. I do not believe that "style" has anything to do with it, it is a fact in America that it is most difficult to study seriously at all, but I do know that ALL should be studied, and seriously.


Boxing clubs?  Muy Thai?


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## Steve (Dec 7, 2021)

Kuengi said:


> We were referring to "Dojo" schools ('generic' in general), you use the word, "team". A dear friend of mine is an Olympic Judo medalist, that was the USA Judo Team. They trained mercilessly. That said, he also trained during a time that, when you entered a place to learn any MA, you knew what you were getting into and whining was far less acceptable; I truly believe a Judge would have laughed you out of court. Times have changed in the US. When I have trained outside of the US, I got the worst (or best) of it as an American, but also only a little more than other students, they knew why they were there and accepted the fact that they were very likely to get hit. You also only refer to grappling arts. I do not believe that "style" has anything to do with it, it is a fact in America that it is most difficult to study seriously at all, but I do know that ALL should be studied, and seriously.


I think business model and goals for the style matter.  I picked a couple that I'm pretty familiar with, which is why they happen to be grappling arts.  

That said, I think you kind of skirted the question.  If a person joins the wrestling club or team to learn how to wrestle, do you think the instructors/coaches run into the issues you describe?  What about other styles?  

For my part, I think it depends on the style, but I see a common denominator either way.  Does WTF TKD run into problems with pandering and keeping things soft?  Do others?  Is Kyokushin Karate in the same boat as other variants of karate?  

To be clear, I don't honestly know, though I have my hypothesis.  Either way, I'm interested to hear your thoughts.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 7, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners. Im saying this because I've experienced some of that on this forum myself.



Now a serious answer......and a question..... Why do you care? If you enjoy what you are training, if you feel what you are teaching gives your students what they want and need....why do you care what someone else calls it?


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## Kuengi (Dec 7, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Boxing clubs?  Muy Thai?


Again, we are no longer referring to training facilities, we are discussing, "styles", and substituting "Club" for "team"? Why is there a difference? When I fought professionally (stables, those were called), there were rules and regulations on protective equipment, because these are sports. When rules are being enforced for the sake of safety, how does that translate to the world outside? It doesn't; besides easily being some of the best conditioning I have ever received. I have been in the ring with Champions, and neither of us ever thought about having to apply it to the streets. I have exposed myself to a lot of conflict, after much use of your fundamentals your response flows with the moment. There are good training schools where the basics of an art can be acquired, but those masters are crafty about who gets through that door. But I find them fewer and fewer, sunk into easily hidden corners of big cities. More to the point of your portion of this question, when I trained PKA, we had a very nice gym (for a gym) with two regulation rings, always busy. Incidentally, when I was in "Thai" (Thailand) we enjoyed the spectacle of the sport, but most of those real fighters learned it in the streets the hard way. There is no school like that here in the land of lawyers.


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## Steve (Dec 7, 2021)

Kuengi said:


> Again, we are no longer referring to training facilities, we are discussing, "styles", and substituting "Club" for "team"? Why is there a difference? When I fought professionally (stables, those were called), there were rules and regulations on protective equipment, because these are sports. When rules are being enforced for the sake of safety, how does that translate to the world outside? It doesn't; besides easily being some of the best conditioning I have ever received. I have been in the ring with Champions, and neither of us ever thought about having to apply it to the streets. I have exposed myself to a lot of conflict, after much use of your fundamentals your response flows with the moment. There are good training schools where the basics of an art can be acquired, but those masters are crafty about who gets through that door. But I find them fewer and fewer, sunk into easily hidden corners of big cities. More to the point of your portion of this question, when I trained PKA, we had a very nice gym (for a gym) with two regulation rings, always busy. Incidentally, when I was in "Thai" (Thailand) we enjoyed the spectacle of the sport, but most of those real fighters learned it in the streets the hard way. There is no school like that here in the land of lawyers.


I don't understand what you're saying.  Trying to.  You are opposed to talking about styles.  Okay... that's fine, but I think it's useful to consider why some styles are less susceptible to the softening and pandering you referred to earlier.  What makes some styles more resistant to falling into that trap?

Now, I think you're losing me a little with the street fighting stuff.  I mean, it seems like you're saying you can't really learn to fight in a school, and that "real fighters learned it in the streets the hard way."  So, you're not a real fighter?  No one you trained with?  That seems like a pretty extreme position to take.  

Ultimately, I guess I just don't agree with you that in this land of lawyers, learning to fight is impossible.  And I can point to a lot of fighters in the USA (and other Western countries, like the UK) to support my point.  I think there are a lot of schools in which people learn to fight, and they're doing just fine.  They just seem to all have one very obvious common element, which is that they incorporate sport or some other accessible form of application.  Not a mystery to me at all.  So, when you discount clubs because they're a style, I really think you're missing the point entirely.  

And in other, completely different news... just to share how I view McDojo, I think it's more about business than quality.  You can have McDojos that teach excellent skills.  You'll pay for it, and may not get a super personalized training environment, but look at Gracie Barra.  High skill level, high quality training... very McDojo in their approach.  In my opinion.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 7, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Now a serious answer......and a question..... Why do you care? If you enjoy what you are training, if you feel what you are teaching gives your students what they want and need....why do you care what someone else calls it?


Well, if it is going on in the community and not just an online discussion forum, then it could be directly harmful to the training group.  Particularly for beginners who lack the experience to really know how to judge something good from something bad, this kind of thing could undermine their confidence in the instructor, even if there is no reason for it.  Perhaps someone has a vindictive agenda and simply wants to hurt a “rival’s” program, even if the accusations have no merit. 

Online, it is pretty easy to shrug off most of the nonsense.  But if someone is deliberately trying to hurt one’s good name and reputation in the community, it is harder to ignore.


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## Kuengi (Dec 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> I think business model and goals for the style matter.  I picked a couple that I'm pretty familiar with, which is why they happen to be grappling arts.
> 
> That said, I think you kind of skirted the question.  If a person joins the wrestling club or team to learn how to wrestle, do you think the instructors/coaches run into the issues you describe?  What about other styles?
> 
> ...


You have excellent questions. I did not intend to avoid your question, I found the examples divergent. Speaking to a High School wrestling coach, he first goes to the subject of teaching the student as "wading in", getting the fundamentals. But even schools have liability problems, so to a lesser degree, yes. You broach WTF TKD. OK, among my highest certifications. My Grandmaster left this world some time ago, but I think he would agree. First, I should mention that, -I think- the World Tae Kwon Do Federation Kukkiwon, Korea was absorbed into another iteration in Korea. I have eschewed those politics for a long time. But, to your question, I will guarantee, privately, many Masters teaching in the US know the vast difference in training intensity in the two countries. Who does it serve to have your school closed and most of your personal wealth taken if the wrong student has a good lawyer? That is why I agreed with the original assessment of -some- schools. Another Grandmaster of mine from Okinawa, Shorin Ryu would caution in a similar way. I also have extensive grappling credentials in Hapkido/Aikido (many similarities) and Judo (my friend insisted). I find the blend to be more complete, possibly necessary. I re-read my answer and felt I need to add that, I am not making a blanket statement that all American schools are "bad", but I am saying it is much harder to find good training. I must go, if there is further conversation, I look forward to it. Thank you most sincerely for your time and civility.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, if it is going on in the community and not just an online discussion forum, then it could be directly harmful to the training group.  Particularly for beginners who lack the experience to really know how to judge something good from something bad, this kind of thing could undermine their confidence in the instructor, even if there is no reason for it.  Perhaps someone has a vindictive agenda and simply wants to hurt a “rival’s” program, even if the accusations have no merit.
> 
> Online, it is pretty easy to shrug off most of the nonsense.  But if someone is deliberately trying to hurt one’s good name and reputation in the community, it is harder to ignore.



My daughter's first MA school was a TKD school that I labeled a McDojos. It had lots of students and it was one of several in a chain. But the one my daughter was in was run by the founder. We were there a year, contract I did not want, and early on I labeled it as such. I took my daughter to a Saturday function there, it was a cookout, demo and other things like a bouncy house (she was in elementary school at the time). I looked around at all the kids there, after the demo, that were in this school and the physical fitness levels (great shape) of the older (highschool) kids there and it hit me.

Is this the TKD that I first started training in 1976? .... No
But it was serving a purpose, yes the guy was making scads of money, yes he stopped talking to me early on when he found out I trained with Jae Hun Kim in Boston. Was it what I would call TKD? No. But all these kids had something positive in their life that was in place of all sorts of trouble they could have gotten into in the first place. Where they all great martial artists? No. But surprisingly a few were pretty darn good.

It was serving a purpose beyond the "McDojos" label I had put on it, It was, in its own way, helping a whole lot of kids. And to me that was a positive. I never used the term "McDojos" after that, unless it was in jest here on MT. Did my daughter stay there after the year? No. we moved on to Aikido and she loved it and she was getting good solid training. The original TKD school she was in is still there and going strong, the Aikido dojo is not doing so good since the head (founding) senesi died at the beginning of the pandemic.

I would not train at the aforementioned TKD school, and I do not agree with his business practices, but there is a positive in helping some kids.

Also it hit me, as a parent, I do not think I would have allowed my young daughter to train at the TKD school I went to. No mats, no pads, no protective gear. Linoleum floors.... that is all.. and there were high and low kicks, joint locks and takedowns.


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## Kuengi (Dec 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> I don't understand what you're saying.  Trying to.  You are opposed to talking about styles.  Okay... that's fine, but I think it's useful to consider why some styles are less susceptible to the softening and pandering you referred to earlier.  What makes some styles more resistant to falling into that trap?
> 
> Now, I think you're losing me a little with the street fighting stuff.  I mean, it seems like you're saying you can't really learn to fight in a school, and that "real fighters learned it in the streets the hard way."  So, you're not a real fighter?  No one you trained with?  That seems like a pretty extreme position to take.
> 
> ...


I must withdraw. You are misquoting me and taking issue with interpretations that are strictly your own. I wish you a better day.


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## Steve (Dec 7, 2021)

Kuengi said:


> I must withdraw. You are misquoting me and taking issue with interpretations that are strictly your own. I wish you a better day.


Sorry to hear that.  Not my intention.  I thought we were just getting to where we understood where the other was coming from.


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## Kuengi (Dec 7, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> My daughter's first MA school was a TKD school that I labeled a McDojos. It had lots of students and it was one of several in a chain. But the one my daughter was in was run by the founder. We were there a year, contract I did not want, and early on I labeled it as such. I took my daughter to a Saturday function there, it was a cookout, demo and other things like a bouncy house (she was in elementary school at the time). I looked around at all the kids there, after the demo, that were in this school and the physical fitness levels (great shape) of the older (highschool) kids there and it hit me.
> 
> Is this the TKD that I first started training in 1976? .... No
> But it was serving a purpose, yes the guy was making scads of money, yes he stopped talking to me early on when he found out I trained with Jae Hun Kim in Boston. Was it what I would call TKD? No. But all these kids had something positive in their life that was in place of all sorts of trouble they could have gotten into in the first place. Where they all great martial artists? No. But surprisingly a few were pretty darn good.
> ...


I like your answer.


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## dvcochran (Dec 7, 2021)

Kuengi said:


> We were referring to "Dojo" schools ('generic' in general), you use the word, "team". A dear friend of mine is an Olympic Judo medalist, that was the USA Judo Team. They trained mercilessly. That said, he also trained during a time that, when you entered a place to learn any MA, you knew what you were getting into and whining was far less acceptable; I truly believe a Judge would have laughed you out of court. Times have changed in the US. When I have trained outside of the US, I got the worst (or best) of it as an American, but also only a little more than other students, they knew why they were there and accepted the fact that they were very likely to get hit. You also only refer to grappling arts. I do not believe that "style" has anything to do with it, it is a fact in America that it is most difficult to study seriously at all, but I do know that ALL should be studied, and seriously.


From my experience and explanation from my insurers there is very little difference in liability (cost or limits) for a gym (weight room), an aerobics class, a wrestling/rolling gym, a rec league soccer team (unit cost), or a dojo/dojang. If there is physical contact or potential to do self-harm (lifting weights) while engaged with equipment or another person, it is all the same as far as the insurer is concerned. At that point it becomes a head count for determining cost. 
We do have an additional rider policy for tournament competitors. Just goes with the territory but cost very little.

FWIW, I have had something like a dozen claims over the course of my 35 years of school ownership and have never had a policy increase due to a claim. 
Relationships, reputation, and credibility and still words that carry weight. It is definitely an ongoing process.


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## MetalBoar (Dec 7, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> From my experience and explanation from my insurers there is very little difference in liability (cost or limits) for a gym (weight room), an aerobics class, a wrestling/rolling gym, a rec league soccer team (unit cost), or a dojo/dojang. If there is physical contact or potential to do self-harm (lifting weights) while engaged with equipment or another person, it is all the same as far as the insurer is concerned. At that point it becomes a head count for determining cost.
> We do have an additional rider policy for tournament competitors. Just goes with the territory but cost very little.
> 
> FWIW, I have had something like a dozen claims over the course of my 35 years of school ownership and have never had a policy increase due to a claim.
> Relationships, reputation, and credibility and still words that carry weight. It is definitely an ongoing process.


Interesting. I was shocked by how cheap extremely comprehensive insurance was for a strength training gym. I don't know what a MA gym would have to pay, but I know insurance was the one expense I just didn't even have to think about it was so cheap. The insurance company I used had a good reputation and I assume they'd have paid out if I had an issue but never had to test it in over 12 years.

The one question they kept asking me when I first enrolled with them, over and over and in different ways, just to make sure, was how many tanning beds I had. I didn't have any and after they finally took that for an answer they explicitly said "Well, if you DO have any tanning beds that isn't covered and we'll drop you if we find out." I'd never used a tanning bed before that and after the level of paranoia the insurance agency had around them I'd be scared to do so now!


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## KenpoMaster805 (Dec 7, 2021)

I think I know why some people called it McDojo because of they way they teach and promote people but it still not right to call them mcdojo they just making it easier for the people.


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## dvcochran (Dec 7, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> Interesting. I was shocked by how cheap extremely comprehensive insurance was for a strength training gym. I don't know what a MA gym would have to pay, but I know insurance was the one expense I just didn't even have to think about it was so cheap. The insurance company I used had a good reputation and I assume they'd have paid out if I had an issue but never had to test it in over 12 years.
> 
> The one question they kept asking me when I first enrolled with them, over and over and in different ways, just to make sure, was how many tanning beds I had. I didn't have any and after they finally took that for an answer they explicitly said "Well, if you DO have any tanning beds that isn't covered and we'll drop you if we find out." I'd never used a tanning bed before that and after the level of paranoia the insurance agency had around them I'd be scared to do so now!


True. Insurance is not a huge financial component for me. Just a part of doing business. 
Funny about the tanning beds. I would have never thought of that. I wonder if it was liability for the actual beds or from people using them?


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## MetalBoar (Dec 7, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> True. Insurance is not a huge financial component for me. Just a part of doing business.
> Funny about the tanning beds. I would have never thought of that. I wonder if it was liability for the actual beds or from people using them?


That's a good question. I didn't ask what the issue was because I knew I never planned to have any and I just wanted them to drop it and move on but I have been curious!


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## Cynik75 (Dec 8, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners..


So what? Truth sometimes hurts.
BTW Time and dedication can be invested in MC Dojo too.


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## lklawson (Dec 8, 2021)

Kuengi said:


> Again, we are no longer referring to training facilities, we are discussing, "styles",



Wait... You're claiming that a boxing club isn't a training facility? Are you sure you want to go with that?




Kuengi said:


> and substituting "Club" for "team"? Why is there a difference? When I fought professionally (stables, those were called), there were rules and regulations on protective equipment, because these are sports. When rules are being enforced for the sake of safety, how does that translate to the world outside? It doesn't; besides easily being some of the best conditioning I have ever received. I have been in the ring with Champions, and neither of us ever thought about having to apply it to the streets.


And here we go. Another sport versus Street thing. Boring. Seen it 100,000 times. It's always the same thing over and over again people pretend there are differences that make a difference. But most of the time the differences don't make a difference.

Got to do better than that.



Kuengi said:


> I have exposed myself to a lot of conflict, after much use of your fundamentals your response flows with the moment. There are good training schools where the basics of an art can be acquired, but those masters are crafty about who gets through that door. But I find them fewer and fewer, sunk into easily hidden corners of big cities. More to the point of your portion of this question, when I trained PKA, we had a very nice gym (for a gym) with two regulation rings, always busy. Incidentally, when I was in "Thai" (Thailand) we enjoyed the spectacle of the sport, but most of those real fighters learned it in the streets the hard way. There is no school like that here in the land of lawyers.


The rest of this goes does not go to your argument and does not refute my point.

The simple fact is, there are plenty of places to train in martial arts that don't seem to be worried about students suing them for getting an owie.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)


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## lklawson (Dec 8, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, if it is going on in the community and not just an online discussion forum, then it could be directly harmful to the training group.  Particularly for beginners who lack the experience to really know how to judge something good from something bad, this kind of thing could undermine their confidence in the instructor, even if there is no reason for it.  Perhaps someone has a vindictive agenda and simply wants to hurt a “rival’s” program, even if the accusations have no merit.
> 
> Online, it is pretty easy to shrug off most of the nonsense.  But if someone is deliberately trying to hurt one’s good name and reputation in the community, it is harder to ignore.


I've seen that sort of thing tried. Never saw the person use the word mcdojo.  They talked about the supposed low quality of instruction, the supposed low rank and skill of the instructor, but they didn't use that word. Probably, I guess, because most of the people who would be vulnerable to that sort of libelous discussion don't know the word.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 8, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Now define what a McDojo is and get everyone to agree with your definition.
> 
> Or... you could just throw up your hands and realize that some people are going to be offended, regardless.


And that some people choose to be offensive. I think some folks throw around terms like "McDojo" to troll. They don't even know what they mean, and don't really care. They just want to get a rise out of someone.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 8, 2021)

frank raud said:


> What if the dojo in question ticks off every box in the definition of a McDojo? Does it now become offensive to tell the truth? Should we encourage people to continue to work hard towards their 17th belt on the way to black belt mastery? Should we point out the fuchsia camo belt is not really traditional in Korean Shaolin Kung fu?


We'd have to figure out what the heck that term means before we can even approach that. I've heard it used to indicate poor training, or to indicate that it's part of a chain of very similar schools (which I think is the original meaning, but I may be wrong). The latter may or may not have poor training.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 8, 2021)

Steve said:


> I think business model and goals for the style matter.  I picked a couple that I'm pretty familiar with, which is why they happen to be grappling arts.
> 
> That said, I think you kind of skirted the question.  If a person joins the wrestling club or team to learn how to wrestle, do you think the instructors/coaches run into the issues you describe?  What about other styles?
> 
> ...


Like you, I don't know. I suspect the problem is real, and something everyone offering training has to consider. But different environments will draw different people. Places that train with lots of reasonably hard contact (competitive Judo, full-contact Kyokushin, etc.) will tend to draw people who want that contact, and will tend to _not_ draw people who are anxious about that contact. Folks who want that contact are probably less likely to sue over it (certainly not a guarantee).

So I think some folks ache over this more than is necessary, but I also think that those (like me) who deal with fairly average folks over 40 (most of my new students) do have to keep this in mind. I start students out a lot softer than I was started out. But when I started, most beginners were under 25 (probably most were under 20).


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 8, 2021)

Kuengi said:


> Again, we are no longer referring to training facilities, we are discussing, "styles", and substituting "Club" for "team"? Why is there a difference? When I fought professionally (stables, those were called), there were rules and regulations on protective equipment, because these are sports. When rules are being enforced for the sake of safety, how does that translate to the world outside? It doesn't; besides easily being some of the best conditioning I have ever received. I have been in the ring with Champions, and neither of us ever thought about having to apply it to the streets. I have exposed myself to a lot of conflict, after much use of your fundamentals your response flows with the moment. There are good training schools where the basics of an art can be acquired, but those masters are crafty about who gets through that door. But I find them fewer and fewer, sunk into easily hidden corners of big cities. More to the point of your portion of this question, when I trained PKA, we had a very nice gym (for a gym) with two regulation rings, always busy. Incidentally, when I was in "Thai" (Thailand) we enjoyed the spectacle of the sport, but most of those real fighters learned it in the streets the hard way. There is no school like that here in the land of lawyers.


I'm having trouble following why this post is here.  Styles do present some differences, and it likely does matter to some extent with the litigious nature of the US system. But I don't see what differentiation of dojo vs. training facilities or the terms "club" and "team" have to do with it. It's all talking about MA training. Why would a Judo club/team/dojo be any different in this discussion based upon which of those three words we use?


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## dvcochran (Dec 8, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners. Im saying this because I've experienced some of that on this forum myself.


Much more important is the existence of the McDojo. It is an offense to all schools as a whole and makes it harder and harder for good schools to operate. Dumbing down (of anything) always nets the same result. 
What happens (is happening) is now that the "McDojo" moniker has been established it is used ad nauseum, even when/where it is not deserved. More times than not it is a strawman comment from someone who got their feelings hurt or got a boo-boo. Status quo for today's cancel culture society. 

I am a two school owner (business/building). The two head instructors are quite different while teaching the same curriculum. We are not teaching lemmings; we expect different results from people. One school tends to produce more upper level competitors (extra classes) while the other school rides a more level wave. Each school has had people leave, some of them being mad or disappointed for various reasons. Tell a kid or the parent of a kid they are not good enough to train and it can be a tenuous conversation.  More often it is people who realize MA's is just not for them. Never any hard feelings there.
We do our best due diligence when someone leaves but sometimes you just have to scrape them off and go on. There have been a few chirpers over the years but it is always short lived and nets zero impact. 

Social media is yet another avenue for people to chirp so I take comments like yours with a grain of salt. A good school will understand this and just keep going. The attitude and environment created makes this rather easy. 

Until there is some sort of established definition for what constitutes a McDojo it is just a word used most often by people who got their feelings hurt. 
For the people who have the ability to recognize where they are training is a 'McDojo' And still work out there, well that is on them. There could be countless reasons this still makes sense. But that person crosses a line when they start bashing on either side of the equation.


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## mograph (Dec 8, 2021)

I thought that to be a “McDojo,” three qualifications had to be met:
1. Part of a chain
2. Low quality of instruction
3. Awarding of belts to unqualified individuals (too early)


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## dvcochran (Dec 8, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> My daughter's first MA school was a TKD school that I labeled a McDojos. It had lots of students and it was one of several in a chain. But the one my daughter was in was run by the founder. We were there a year, contract I did not want, and early on I labeled it as such. I took my daughter to a Saturday function there, it was a cookout, demo and other things like a bouncy house (she was in elementary school at the time). I looked around at all the kids there, after the demo, that were in this school and the physical fitness levels (great shape) of the older (highschool) kids there and it hit me.
> 
> Is this the TKD that I first started training in 1976? .... No
> But it was serving a purpose, yes the guy was making scads of money, yes he stopped talking to me early on when he found out I trained with Jae Hun Kim in Boston. Was it what I would call TKD? No. But all these kids had something positive in their life that was in place of all sorts of trouble they could have gotten into in the first place. Where they all great martial artists? No. But surprisingly a few were pretty darn good.
> ...


Nail on the head.


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## Steve (Dec 8, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Like you, I don't know. I suspect the problem is real, and something everyone offering training has to consider. But different environments will draw different people. Places that train with lots of reasonably hard contact (competitive Judo, full-contact Kyokushin, etc.) will tend to draw people who want that contact, and will tend to _not_ draw people who are anxious about that contact. Folks who want that contact are probably less likely to sue over it (certainly not a guarantee).
> 
> So I think some folks ache over this more than is necessary, but I also think that those (like me) who deal with fairly average folks over 40 (most of my new students) do have to keep this in mind. I start students out a lot softer than I was started out. But when I started, most beginners were under 25 (probably most were under 20).


The point I was trying to make is that training competitors is going to naturally drive the training to that activity.  So, the goal is to train people to excel in the sport, and for the most part, people understand that.  No one likes to see kids (or anyone) get hurt through negligence, but kids play football, basketball, soccer, and all kinds of other sports that are really quite dangerous.  And they mostly do so safely, and schools and school districts in the USA manage to offer these sports with minimal legal risk to the school district.  Martial arts schools like MMA schools, boxing clubs, BJJ clubs, etc are pretty much in the same boat.  So, outside of obvious negligence, people know what they're getting into. 

I think schools that don't have a natural and obvious goal for the training are very susceptible to watering down the training.  Because, if they're not training competitors, what are they training?  If you look a some of the "self defense" techniques, I would say the claim is that they're training killers.  Something like, "We don't train you for sport.  We train you to defend yourself from really dangerous people, and our techniques are deadly."  

The end result is a situation where marketing creates the problem.  Schools that are catering to the timid customer who doesn't want a lot of contact are creating for themselves a real dilemma.  Simply put, when you actively market to people who don't want contact (or pain or sweat or any difficulty at all, really), should you be surprised when they get upset if they get hurt?  In those cases, given the marketing, I don't blame them at all.  Like the person who gets upset when they're told that their crystals will align their chakras...  they paid good money for that, and I don't blame them for being upset when it doesn't work.

To be clear, this is beside the point that a lot of timid folks do really, really well in competitive sports.  Overcoming the negative marketing from the killer (but easy and comfortable to learn) arts is a real issue, but that's a different thread.

And also, I think this is a closely associated issue to McDojo, but not exactly the same.  I generally think of McDojos as subscribing to certain business practices.  But that said, this is all a part of the issue.  Watering down the art, overpromising and underdelivering, and the other things we're talking about are a part of what a McDojo commonly does to woo customers through the door.


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## dvcochran (Dec 8, 2021)

mograph said:


> I thought that to be a “McDojo,” three qualifications had to be met:
> 1. Part of a chain
> 2. Low quality of instruction
> 3. Awarding of belts to unqualified individuals (too early)


I would say #2 would be the only constant of the three you mention. The way you word #3 I would agree, but people have been adjusting the belt system for decades to fit or modify the way they teach their curriculum. It is becoming more of a gauge for the teacher to identify a student's proficiency as it is a milestone accomplishment for the student. 
I do agree this is frequently an indicator of a 'belt mill'. That said, often in the dynamic mentioned the belt color has less meaning and you would need to look at the program/persons end results to really gauge it for being a McDojo. In other words, what you see as the standard for a green belt will be different for what other teachers use. However, looking at the same person two years down the road (regardless of belt) is where a valid measurement can be made.  
No, I do not like the countless stars & stripes you see on belts these days. Nor do I like having more than the traditional 9 Gup ranks. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. But I understand that this is just me and others have their own traditions. 
Therefore, I cannot explicitly say it is a bad thing. Change for the sake of change or to say 'it is my idea' is just a bad, ego grab most of the time.


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## knuckleheader (Dec 8, 2021)

I wouldn't worry if you're confident in your teaching.
The "McDojo" will stand or fail on its receipe.
Pun intended


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## Flying Crane (Dec 8, 2021)

I believe the definition of McDojo has simply become “you don’t teach or train how I teach or train, or how I believe you should teach or train, so you suck”.

The question remains: who gets to decide what the standards in teaching and training are, beyond their own involvement?  Who has the “authority” to determine that for all the rest of us, and how might they think they can enforce it?

Remember: no matter how good you might be, someone out there thinks you suck. I could actually imagine two rival schools pointing at each other and sincerely accusing each other of being a mcdojo, simply because they follow different teaching and training paths, and can’t conceive of finding room in the world for something different from themselves.


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## Balrog (Dec 8, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Now define what a McDojo is and get everyone to agree with your definition.


That's one problem.


lklawson said:


> Or... you could just throw up your hands and realize that some people are going to be offended, regardless.


That's the other problem.


lklawson said:


> Aren't you kind of tired of always walking on eggshells, wondering if some off-hand comment that seems innocuous to you someone else is going to claim offense at?


I actually don't walk on that many eggshells.  I am NOT politically correct (as folks in here may have noticed), so I tend to speak my mind openly.  But yes, it does get annoying when people get all whiny about it.

As far as the McDojo aspect....every time I was told that I ran a McDojo, I would simply hand them a VIP card good for a month's free instruction and invite them to come train.  In the 26 years that I ran my school, not a single one took me up on it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 8, 2021)

mograph said:


> I thought that to be a “McDojo,” three qualifications had to be met:
> 1. Part of a chain
> 2. Low quality of instruction
> 3. Awarding of belts to unqualified individuals (too early)


Perhaps (though #3 is so subjective as to be unmeasurable in most cases). But a lot of folks seem to use it simply to designate a place they don't like the practices or culture of.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 8, 2021)

Steve said:


> The point I was trying to make is that training competitors is going to naturally drive the training to that activity.  So, the goal is to train people to excel in the sport, and for the most part, people understand that.  No one likes to see kids (or anyone) get hurt through negligence, but kids play football, basketball, soccer, and all kinds of other sports that are really quite dangerous.  And they mostly do so safely, and schools and school districts in the USA manage to offer these sports with minimal legal risk to the school district.  Martial arts schools like MMA schools, boxing clubs, BJJ clubs, etc are pretty much in the same boat.  So, outside of obvious negligence, people know what they're getting into.
> 
> I think schools that don't have a natural and obvious goal for the training are very susceptible to watering down the training.  Because, if they're not training competitors, what are they training?  If you look a some of the "self defense" techniques, I would say the claim is that they're training killers.  Something like, "We don't train you for sport.  We train you to defend yourself from really dangerous people, and our techniques are deadly."
> 
> ...


I'm not quite sure how you turned this into another thread about the evils of the term "self-defense". 

I agree that folks have a better picture in most cases of what they're getting into when there's style-specific competition, assuming that competition is the high end of the risk. That may not be the case, for instance, in some TKD schools. There may be some that compete in the fairly light-looking contact you see in the Olympics, but also train with something closer to full-contact sparring within the school.

I would also guess the problem exists for less-known styles, if someone joins not knowing what the competition is like, so they don't have that as a guide to what they should expect.


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## Steve (Dec 8, 2021)

My definition of McDojo is a school that prioritizes profit through standardization over quality.  It's the philosophy of "good enough" every single time.  

Is a Quarter Pounder with Cheese an excellent burger?  No, but it's good enough, and while they couldn't sell a thousand excellent burgers in a day, they can sell a thousand that are all good enough.   

So, a school can be a McDojo and have high standards and excellent results.  The business model, however, prioritizes profitability over quality.  So if there becomes a conflict between the two, profits will win out over quality.


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## Steve (Dec 8, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I'm not quite sure how you turned this into another thread about the evils of the term "self-defense".



I'm not sure how why you're turning this into another thread about me.    



Gerry Seymour said:


> I agree that folks have a better picture in most cases of what they're getting into when there's style-specific competition, assuming that competition is the high end of the risk. That may not be the case, for instance, in some TKD schools. There may be some that compete in the fairly light-looking contact you see in the Olympics, but also train with something closer to full-contact sparring within the school.
> 
> I would also guess the problem exists for less-known styles, if someone joins not knowing what the competition is like, so they don't have that as a guide to what they should expect.


If you read the post with the intent to understand my point, you'd see the nexus clearly.  My post isn't about "self defense" at all.  It's about what you're selling to the customer vs what you're giving them, and the points brought up earlier.  If you sell them "deadly" but also "comfortable", and don't deliver both, you're creating your own headaches as a business owner.  This is a thread about McDojos.


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## Hyoho (Dec 8, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners. Im saying this because I've experienced some of that on this forum myself.


I really don't know about other countries methodology of promoting MA. I am only involved with Japanese arts as a professional. The arts are governed by Monbusho (educational authority) and are a Phys/Ed subject. Outside Japan they are or should be run on a none profit level. When I was teaching in the UK it was again governed by a commission. I have never bashed anybody. Just an online chuckle at people calling themselves grandmaster etc. Wearing belts and bastardizing a system that was invented by a man who also the director for primary education. If you are offended at this word I guess you have to ask yourself exactly what do and what are the roots what you do. And what educational qualifications you actually posses to perhaps "sell a product".


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## Martial D (Dec 8, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners. Im saying this because I've experienced some of that on this forum myself.


Calling a fat person fat is also offensive. In bad taste. Rude even.

But also true.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 8, 2021)

Hyoho said:


> I really don't know about other countries methodology of promoting MA. I am only involved with Japanese arts as a professional. The arts are governed by Monbusho (educational authority) and are a Phys/Ed subject. Outside Japan they are or should be run on a none profit level. When I was teaching in the UK it was again governed by a commission. I have never bashed anybody. Just an online chuckle at people calling themselves grandmaster etc. Wearing belts and bastardizing a system that was invented by a man who also the director for primary education. If you are offended at this word I guess you have to ask yourself exactly what do and what are the roots what you do. And what educational qualifications you actually posses to perhaps "sell a product".


There is no regulation in the US, other than necessary documentation for running a business, if you are accepting payment for teaching.  So, a business license, pay the taxes, liability insurance and insurance for a school location, that kind of thing.  People can run it as a non-profit, or to make as much money as possible, or any way in between. 

There is no government regulation on who can teach.  Anybody can claim any qualification that they want, real or imagined, and teach any thing they want, any way they want.  If someone is willing to pay them, then they are in business.  Other than possible intellectual rights on use of names and such, if such things are protected under copyright or that kind of thing, it is nearly impossible to enforce limitations.  There are various federations and organizations that may copyright or trademark a name and a logo, and may establish standards for all those who belong to the federation.  But those are also business entities that collect dues, membership is completely voluntary, and are also not regulated by any government agency, in terms of what or how they teach, or quality standards.  Sometimes they are the worst, in terms of being low-standards and money- grubbing.  Martial arts in the US is loosely self-regulated at best.

You can do whatever you want in the US, for teaching martial arts.  It is true, there are a lot of bad schools with low standards (in my opinion).  And I guess that is what makes the issue difficult:  accusations of bad teaching can be based on truth.  But on the flip side, it is easy to mis-use and abuse the accusation, and simply accuse everyone else who doesn’t do it like you do it, as being a lousy teacher.


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## knuckleheader (Dec 9, 2021)

Bottom line. Mostly unknowing parents  will patronize McDojo's for their children.
Hopefully if the parents(even kids) recognize what's lacking. They will move on.


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## dvcochran (Dec 9, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> There is no regulation in the US, other than necessary documentation for running a business, if you are accepting payment for teaching.  So, a business license, pay the taxes, liability insurance and insurance for a school location, that kind of thing.  People can run it as a non-profit, or to make as much money as possible, or any way in between.
> 
> There is no government regulation on who can teach.  Anybody can claim any qualification that they want, real or imagined, and teach any thing they want, any way they want.  If someone is willing to pay them, then they are in business.  Other than possible intellectual rights on use of names and such, if such things are protected under copyright or that kind of thing, it is nearly impossible to enforce limitations.  There are various federations and organizations that may copyright or trademark a name and a logo, and may establish standards for all those who belong to the federation.  But those are also business entities that collect dues, membership is completely voluntary, and are also not regulated by any government agency, in terms of what or how they teach, or quality standards.  Sometimes they are the worst, in terms of being low-standards and money- grubbing.  Martial arts in the US is loosely self-regulated at best.
> 
> You can do whatever you want in the US, for teaching martial arts.  It is true, there are a lot of bad schools with low standards (in my opinion).  And I guess that is what makes the issue difficult:  accusations of bad teaching can be based on truth.  But on the flip side, it is easy to mis-use and abuse the accusation, and simply accuse everyone else who doesn’t do it like you do it, as being a lousy teacher.


Well said. You could say it is a 'how' vs. 'what' argument Hyoho is making.


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## Steve (Dec 9, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> There is no regulation in the US, other than necessary documentation for running a business, if you are accepting payment for teaching.  So, a business license, pay the taxes, liability insurance and insurance for a school location, that kind of thing.  People can run it as a non-profit, or to make as much money as possible, or any way in between.
> 
> There is no government regulation on who can teach.  Anybody can claim any qualification that they want, real or imagined, and teach any thing they want, any way they want.  If someone is willing to pay them, then they are in business.  Other than possible intellectual rights on use of names and such, if such things are protected under copyright or that kind of thing, it is nearly impossible to enforce limitations.  There are various federations and organizations that may copyright or trademark a name and a logo, and may establish standards for all those who belong to the federation.  But those are also business entities that collect dues, membership is completely voluntary, and are also not regulated by any government agency, in terms of what or how they teach, or quality standards.  Sometimes they are the worst, in terms of being low-standards and money- grubbing.  Martial arts in the US is loosely self-regulated at best.
> 
> You can do whatever you want in the US, for teaching martial arts.  It is true, there are a lot of bad schools with low standards (in my opinion).  And I guess that is what makes the issue difficult:  accusations of bad teaching can be based on truth.  But on the flip side, it is easy to mis-use and abuse the accusation, and simply accuse everyone else who doesn’t do it like you do it, as being a lousy teacher.


About the only way I can think of where you can get into trouble in the USA, is if you start making medical claims that run afoul of the FDA, or if you are negligent where folks are being seriously injured or worse, and you're liable.  With the former, it's the difference between saying that training in a style is good for fitness, and stretching that into making claims that it will cure gout or whatever.  I've seen some martial arts that skirt that line, IMO.


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## Steve (Dec 9, 2021)

knuckleheader said:


> Bottom line. Mostly unknowing parents  will patronize McDojo's for their children.
> Hopefully if the parents(even kids) recognize what's lacking. They will move on.


Maybe.  If what they're looking for is a little exercise, a little socialization, and something to keep the kids busy after school, a McDojo is as good as peewee soccer, KinderCare, or other alternatives.  Maybe better, in some way, even if the kid isn't learning any actual martial skill.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 9, 2021)

Kuengi said:


> Many MA schools in America fail as a business entity. This is due to more than one thing, as is usual. The first is trying to satisfy the requirements of requisite oppressively expensive insurance. America is a land where the litigious and their attorneys have the greatest impact on schools of integrity in teaching a Martial Art. Signing a release of liability means nothing in court when being sued for an injury received. There is little to no accountability for one's own choices in these times, and to claim that one did not know there would be forceful physical contact in learning a fighting skill is unfortunately a common successful claim against MA schools. So to fill a room, many proprietors keep it very soft and pander to children's games. It might be considered a very soft, very slow way to introduce ones self to MA, but the inference of "McDojo, Take my Do," and others has arisen from a degree of honest appraisal. It is not polite or respectful, however.


Well said, and unfortunately very true.


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## Steve (Dec 9, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well said, and unfortunately very true.


 
"There is little to no accountability for one's own choices in these times, and to claim that one did not know there would be forceful physical contact in learning a fighting skill is unfortunately a common successful claim against MA schools."  

Do you all really think this is true?   Really?  I disagree.

If the issue here is accountability, I think there's some room for school owners to look at their own marketing and branding.  There is nothing inherently wrong with traits associated with McDojos...  practices that promote retention, help insure that folks are paying their dues, standardizing curricula and ensuring that instructors are all delivering consistent instruction, and emphasizing consistent results for many vs exceptional results for only a few.  Just like with restaurants, there is a place for McDonalds just as there is a place for the small bistro.  

As long as you're delivering what you're marketing, all is well.  No one expects to be blown away by a quarter pounder.  But if you're in a bistro and order a $15 wagyu beef burger, it should knock your socks off.  Conversely, I don't think a $15 wagyu burger would sell very well at McDs.  In the same way, if you are selling comfort, community, respect, and a black belt... but you give you folks bruises and the occasional bloody nose, I don't think that's on them.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 9, 2021)

Steve said:


> "There is little to no accountability for one's own choices in these times, and to claim that one did not know there would be forceful physical contact in learning a fighting skill is unfortunately a common successful claim against MA schools."
> 
> Do you all really think this is true?   Really?  I disagree.
> 
> ...


I think I get your point, and I believe it’s valid. My response was due in part to the fact that Sifu Gales wife and one of my training partners are attorneys. I teach and train on slippery waxed concrete with cotton soled shoes. I warn people about the floor, I have them sign a waiver too. I don’t let new students spar until they can move on the floor with some ability. None of this would save me from a lawsuit. I carry a large liability insurance for extra protection. I still get the occasional person who is what I would term, divorced from reality.  These folks tend to imagine all sorts of things. I do encounter quite a few that make excuses for their behavior or refuse to take responsibility for it. These are the same ones that will sue for hurting themselves as a result of not following instructions.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 9, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners. Im saying this because I've experienced some of that on this forum myself.


So why did they say your school is a mcdojo?


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## dvcochran (Dec 9, 2021)

Kuengi said:


> Many MA schools in America fail as a business entity. This is due to more than one thing, as is usual. The first is trying to satisfy the requirements of requisite oppressively expensive insurance. America is a land where the litigious and their attorneys have the greatest impact on schools of integrity in teaching a Martial Art. Signing a release of liability means nothing in court when being sued for an injury received. There is little to no accountability for one's own choices in these times, and to claim that one did not know there would be forceful physical contact in learning a fighting skill is unfortunately a common successful claim against MA schools. So to fill a room, many proprietors keep it very soft and pander to children's games. It might be considered a very soft, very slow way to introduce ones self to MA, but the inference of "McDojo, Take my Do," and others has arisen from a degree of honest appraisal. It is not polite or respectful, however.


I cannot fully agree with this. As with the vast majority of startups the greatest failure is due to a lack of planning. A key component of this is in the form of planning the financials. 
The person who says "man, it would be really cool to have my own Karate school" is almost certainly doomed to fail from the start. Blindly going into it with a ton of unplanned/unknown overhead is just, stupid.


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## Gyakuto (Dec 13, 2021)

I wonder if the idea that Budo can be monitised is the cause of the McDojo phenomenon? 

At it’s absolute fundamental, a business is about selling a commodity onward, at a higher price than at which the seller obtained it, whether that’s a physical item or a ‘service’. This sometimes leads to ‘cutting corners’ in order to maximised or even eke-out a minimal profit, in this context, changing the art to make it more appealing to potential clientele: flashier/simpler without ‘martial relevance’ or more trivially, coloured keikogi, a plethora of patches, multicoloured belts and tags (martial relevance, or ‘riai’ is more important but difficult to quantify, in my opinion. If you want to wear a black belt with 18 tags on it, so be it, but some, on seeing this, will think, ‘hmmm, really?’).

In the U.K, monetising Budo is a relatively new phenomenon and I think this has stifled the proliferation of McDojo (although there are _some_). In my art, we are not _allowed_ to make a profit, but only cover hall-hire expenses and our insurance costs, which are pretty minimal with our national governing association (people are generally less litigious in the U.K. , but that is changing thanks to the legal models being imported from our cousins ‘across the pond’!)

My conclusion is that if you wish to stamp out McDojo, then keep Budo strictly amateur and non-profit making…which is rather anti-American 😀 But why would you do this? McDojo are a source of great amusement and generate hilarious Youtube videos


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## dvcochran (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> I wonder if the idea that Budo can be monitised is the cause of the McDojo phenomenon?
> 
> At it’s absolute fundamental, a business is about selling a commodity onward, at a higher price than at which the seller obtained it, whether that’s a physical item or a ‘service’. This sometimes leads to ‘cutting corners’ in order to maximised or even eke-out a minimal profit, in this context, changing the art to make it more appealing to potential clientele: flashier/simpler without ‘martial relevance’ or more trivially, coloured keikogi, a plethora of patches, multicoloured belts and tags (martial relevance, or ‘riai’ is more important but difficult to quantify, in my opinion. If you want to wear a black belt with 18 tags on it, so be it, but some, on seeing this, will think, ‘hmmm, really?’).
> 
> ...


I can't imagine it is all that different from the UK to the US but if you study the differences in selling a commodity versus a service you will see the approach is/should be quite different. 
You are spot in in regards to the stars, stripes and patches seen at some schools. When this 'tool' goes beyond the purpose of organization is does blur the commodity/service line. Using this method as a 'dangling carrot' is just wrong and ultimately misleading. Especially, especially in the adult model. 
Setting up a system of promotion that relies on the incremental acknowledgement of proficiency is nothing new. Just look at any military organization. Or the promotion of employees in many business environments. But mainly or even explicitly (I have seen this) using the next milestone marker as the sole motivator, instead of focusing on the content, training, and effort it takes to get there is definitely when the McDojo moniker is justified. A good example is the 'binge & purge' college class mentality. A system that allows a person to slide until the last few weeks before testing then cram the needed training in just to get by the next test is a key indicator of a McDojo. This severely hurts each side of the model. However, it is not an uncommon occurrence. Part of what adds to burgeoning complexity of extending the belt system with color, stars, stripes, etc... This is also a major factor in the trend of 'subpar' 1st Dan practitioners. By in large, the whole scale has moved.

I can't agree that monetization necessarily adds to or takes away from a school earning the McDojo title. Used correctly, capitalism leads to continued improvement in any business model. The first and foremost example I can think of to support this is in expectation. When a product or service is paid for the transaction alone creates expectation. Hopefully we can agree that, by in large, the more you have to pay for a certain product the better the quality you expect to receive. I am not talking about flashy advertising that over-inflates perceived quality. I mean established, known quality. This requires a ton of time, effort, and expense from the provider. Either in the depth of the service rendered or the material it takes to create the product. Why is it wrong to expect compensation for this? 
If a person is okay with training in the park or a back room, garage, or a dark dingy training good on them. That is a choice I have no problem with. AND that does not automatically mean subpar training. But this is a deep well that includes a degree of liability that I will not get into here. And the reflection (good or bad) is too often not accurately recognized. 

Are you saying the UK government does not allow gyms or dojo/dojangs to operate for profit? Is this consistent for any service industry over there?
Do you have different NFP status' such as 501 or 503 like in the US? It is used as a blanket and redirect all to often here. A LOT of money is made by NFP's that gets channeled in some rather innocuous ways. You better have a really, really good tax man if your run a NFP here. Else, you are running off the books or just as a hobby.

That video is sadly hilarious.


----------



## Steve (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> I wonder if the idea that Budo can be monitised is the cause of the McDojo phenomenon?
> 
> At it’s absolute fundamental, a business is about selling a commodity onward, at a higher price than at which the seller obtained it, whether that’s a physical item or a ‘service’. This sometimes leads to ‘cutting corners’ in order to maximised or even eke-out a minimal profit, in this context, changing the art to make it more appealing to potential clientele: flashier/simpler without ‘martial relevance’ or more trivially, coloured keikogi, a plethora of patches, multicoloured belts and tags (martial relevance, or ‘riai’ is more important but difficult to quantify, in my opinion. If you want to wear a black belt with 18 tags on it, so be it, but some, on seeing this, will think, ‘hmmm, really?’).
> 
> ...


Sounds very different over there.  Who enforces the requirement to not turn a profit?  I mean, is the government imposing that, or is it the style/organization?  Curious to learn more about that, because it sounds like some styles are running for profit, so I'm wondering what the difference is.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> I wonder if the idea that Budo can be monitised is the cause of the McDojo phenomenon?
> 
> At it’s absolute fundamental, a business is about selling a commodity onward, at a higher price than at which the seller obtained it, whether that’s a physical item or a ‘service’. This sometimes leads to ‘cutting corners’ in order to maximised or even eke-out a minimal profit, in this context, changing the art to make it more appealing to potential clientele: flashier/simpler without ‘martial relevance’ or more trivially, coloured keikogi, a plethora of patches, multicoloured belts and tags (martial relevance, or ‘riai’ is more important but difficult to quantify, in my opinion. If you want to wear a black belt with 18 tags on it, so be it, but some, on seeing this, will think, ‘hmmm, really?’).
> 
> ...


I generally agree with what you are saying, although I have no problem with a teacher being paid for his time.  I will ask though:  how is it that you are not allowed to make a profit?  How is that controlled, and what would stop you from going off on your own to teach what you know, at a high price?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> I wonder if the idea that Budo can be monitised is the cause of the McDojo phenomenon?
> 
> At it’s absolute fundamental, a business is about selling a commodity onward, at a higher price than at which the seller obtained it, whether that’s a physical item or a ‘service’. This sometimes leads to ‘cutting corners’ in order to maximised or even eke-out a minimal profit, in this context, changing the art to make it more appealing to potential clientele: flashier/simpler without ‘martial relevance’ or more trivially, coloured keikogi, a plethora of patches, multicoloured belts and tags (martial relevance, or ‘riai’ is more important but difficult to quantify, in my opinion. If you want to wear a black belt with 18 tags on it, so be it, but some, on seeing this, will think, ‘hmmm, really?’).
> 
> ...


That is a hilarious video. It looks like the local tkd studio. Lol!


----------



## Gyakuto (Dec 13, 2021)

Not the government, but many of the parent Japanese association to which we’re affiliated to such as the ZenKenRen (All,Japan Kendo Association). All teaching if free!

I don’t think the ‘pay more, get better’ is a rule of thumb at all. It what advertising would have you believe, so we get top price brands and exactly the same ‘own brand’ often made in the same place but sold a a lower cost. Anyway, this is becoming about capitalism of which I have little interest.

When an art becomes a commodity, it becomes a target for exploitation by those who try to monetise it for their own gain. With that comes marketing (little white lies), exaggerated claims, lower examination standards, coloured keikogi, belts and patches etc. But the main issue is the promulgating of techniques which may not have been ’forged in the fire of aggressive, fully resisting’ combat….if that’s what you’re looking for. You might not!


----------



## Gyakuto (Dec 13, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I generally agree with what you are saying, although I have no problem with a teacher being paid for his time.  I will ask though:  how is it that you are not allowed to make a profit?  How is that controlled, and what would stop you from going off on your own to teach what you know, at a high price?


It’s not the done thing in traditional Japanese Budo…like not tipping waiting staff in Japan restaurants. What stops you setting up on your own? I think the idea is that Budoka hold themselves to a higher moral standard and just don’t do this. It’s dishonourable to ones teacher (who hasnt done it) and it turns something honed in heat of combat, often the result of maiming and even death of humans into a means of financial gain. Hard to believe, eh?


----------



## Gyakuto (Dec 13, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That is a hilarious video. It looks like the local tkd studio. Lol!


When I’m feeling a bit down, or my training isn’t going well, I watch this to cheer myself up😀 I’d love to know the school of which art belongs. I suspect Royal College of (bad) Dancing!


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 13, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I can't imagine it is all that different from the UK to the US but if you study the differences in selling a commodity versus a service you will see the approach is/should be quite different.
> You are spot in in regards to the stars, stripes and patches seen at some schools. When this 'tool' goes beyond the purpose of organization is does blur the commodity/service line. Using this method as a 'dangling carrot' is just wrong and ultimately misleading. Especially, especially in the adult model.
> Setting up a system of promotion that relies on the incremental acknowledgement of proficiency is nothing new. Just look at any military organization. Or the promotion of employees in many business environments. But mainly or even explicitly (I have seen this) using the next milestone marker as the sole motivator, instead of focusing on the content, training, and effort it takes to get there is definitely when the McDojo moniker is justified. A good example is the 'binge & purge' college class mentality. A system that allows a person to slide until the last few weeks before testing then cram the needed training in just to get by the next test is a key indicator of a McDojo. This severely hurts each side of the model. However, it is not an uncommon occurrence. Part of what adds to burgeoning complexity of extending the belt system with color, stars, stripes, etc... This is also a major factor in the trend of 'subpar' 1st Dan practitioners. By in large, the whole scale has moved.
> 
> ...


I agree with much of your point here, except the part about expectation. We have research that solidly shows it at least sometimes works backwards: how much something is priced affects the judgment of its value, rather than just the expectation against which it is judged. This is seen in things as basic as blind wine tastings, where the same wine is presented twice - once as an inexpensive wine, and once as an expensive wine. It is nearly always judged as a better-tasting wine when thought to be expensive. There's sufficient evidence of this effect on other products and services to believe it likely comes into play sometimes with martial arts.


----------



## lklawson (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> Not the government, but many of the parent Japanese association to which we’re affiliated to such as the ZenKenRen (All,Japan Kendo Association). All teaching if free!
> 
> I don’t think the ‘pay more, get better’ is a rule of thumb at all. It what advertising would have you believe, so we get top price brands and exactly the same ‘own brand’ often made in the same place but sold a a lower cost. Anyway, this is becoming about capitalism of which I have little interest.
> 
> When an art becomes a commodity, it becomes a target for exploitation by those who try to monetise it for their own gain. With that comes marketing (little white lies), exaggerated claims, lower examination standards, coloured keikogi, belts and patches etc. But the main issue is the promulgating of techniques which may not have been ’forged in the fire of aggressive, fully resisting’ combat….if that’s what you’re looking for. You might not!


Teaching martial arts as a profession is a long-standing, time-honored, career path.  There are examples in every culture from Chinese to Filipino, though I am most familiar with historic European and American examples such as Johannes Liechtenauer, Nicolaes Petter, and Thomas Monstery.  

Teaching for money does not guarantee poor instruction and slipping standards.  In fact, there are many examples where it requires highter skill and greater standards.  You want to teach the rich Lord's children to fence?  You'd better be darn good and have an impeccable fight reputation.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Gyakuto (Dec 13, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Teaching martial arts as a profession is a long-standing, time-honored, career path.  There are examples in every culture from Chinese to Filipino, though I am most familiar with historic European and American examples such as Johannes Liechtenauer, Nicolaes Petter, and Thomas Monstery.
> 
> Teaching for money does not guarantee poor instruction and slipping standards.  In fact, there are many examples where it requires highter skill and greater standards.  You want to teach the rich Lord's children to fence?  You'd better be darn good and have an impeccable fight reputation.
> 
> ...


I’m sure that’s the case, but I assume charlatans (and it is charlatans who set up McDojo) are seldom ‘weeded out’ by requests for duels as those you mention could have been.


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## Gyakuto (Dec 13, 2021)

I’m surprised the biggest contributer to ill-health, obesity, rain forest clearance and animal suffering  (the burger people) haven’t objected to the term ‘McDojo’.


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## Steve (Dec 13, 2021)

For what it's worth, I see a lot of potential value in the idea of a club format. The club/non-profit model would definitely have a different vibe than going into a business.  There would be more of a community feel.  I don't know if it would affect quality one way or the other, but the culture of the school would certainly be different, and I could see it drawing a different type of student. 

In America, I would guess that if someone wanted to learn European sword, a HEMA club would have a similar culture to what you describe in the UK.  I know that many (though not all) judo schools are run as non-profit clubs, and they seem to do okay.


----------



## Steve (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> I’m sure that’s the case, but I assume charlatans (and it is charlatans who set up McDojo) are seldom ‘weeded out’ by requests for duels as those you mention could have been.


For what it's worth, I don't think charlatan and McDojo are necessarily connected.  I'm pretty darn sure we could come up with several examples of martial arts charlatans who weren't running McDojos.   And I am also pretty sure we could come up with some McDojo's with excellent instruction and high standards.



Gyakuto said:


> I’m surprised the biggest contributer to ill-health, obesity, rain forest clearance and animal suffering  (the burger people) haven’t objected to the term ‘McDojo’.


Starting to sound like you just don't like Americans.  Or are you referring to someone specific in this thread?  Is it me?  Am I the biggest contributor to ill-health, obesity, rain forest clearance and animal suffering?  

As an aside, are you vegan?  I have several good friends who are vegan, and it has been really interesting to hear their perspectives on things.


----------



## Gyakuto (Dec 13, 2021)

Steve said:


> For what it's worth, I see a lot of potential value in the idea of a club format. The club/non-profit model would definitely have a different vibe than going into a business.  There would be more of a community feel.  I don't know if it would affect quality one way or the other, but the culture of the school would certainly be different, and I could see it drawing a different type of student.
> 
> In America, I would guess that if someone wanted to learn European sword, a HEMA club would have a similar culture to what you describe in the UK.  I know that many (though not all) judo schools are run as non-profit clubs, and they seem to do okay.


That’s really interesting. Thanks Steve.


----------



## lklawson (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> I’m sure that’s the case, but I assume charlatans (and it is charlatans who set up McDojo) are seldom ‘weeded out’ by requests for duels as those you mention could have been.


Nothing stopping it except other martial artists who want to "be nice."  Most people here get mad at "dojo busting," challenging other instructors, exposing "bullshido," and the like.  In fact, doing the "bullshido" thing is explicitly prohibited here.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gyakuto (Dec 13, 2021)

Steve said:


> For what it's worth, I don't think charlatan and McDojo are necessarily connected.  I'm pretty darn sure we could come up with several examples of martial arts charlatans who weren't running McDojos.   And I am also pretty sure we could come up with some McDojo's with excellent instruction and high standards.
> 
> 
> Starting to sound like you just don't like Americans.  Or are you referring to someone specific in this thread?  Is it me?  Am I the biggest contributor to ill-health, obesity, rain forest clearance and animal suffering?
> ...


Ha ha! No, my girlfriend is a French film maker who lived in the USA for many years (her son is American) and she keeps telling me how great a place it is in every way…ad nauseum! So I like contradicting her at _every_ opportunity. She’s very positive and has the ‘can do’ US attitude and I’m European and this very negative and dismissive.

I am a life-long vegetarian who tries to take the vegan option. I’m also a retired chubby scientist and doctor so see all sides of the arguments! 😄


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## Gyakuto (Dec 13, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Nothing stopping it except other martial artists who want to "be nice."  Most people here get mad at "dojo busting," challenging other instructors, "bullshido" exposing, and and the like.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I remember hearing about a U.K.-based Japanese senior swordsman who applied to the Japanese government for the legal papers to challenge someone with whom he had an argument, to a duel to-the-death! He received them and the other guy avoided him thereafter!😄😆


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## bill miller (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> Ha ha! No, my girlfriend is a French film maker who lived in the USA for many years (her son is American) and she keeps telling me how great a place it is in every way…ad nauseum! So I like contradicting her at _every_ opportunity. She’s very positive and has the ‘can do’ US attitude and I’m European and this very negative and dismissive.
> 
> I am a life-long vegetarian who tries to take the vegan option. I’m also a retired chubby scientist and doctor so see all sides of the arguments! 😄


Damn! now I'm hungry. I think a Big Mac would hit the spot


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## Gyakuto (Dec 13, 2021)

bill miller said:


> Damn! now I'm hungry. I think a Big Mac would hit the spot


Eat…eat heartily…keep eating😈


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 13, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Nothing stopping it except other martial artists who want to "be nice."  Most people here get mad at "dojo busting," challenging other instructors, exposing "bullshido," and the like.  In fact, doing the "bullshido" thing is explicitly prohibited here.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I actually Have seen a three different attempts at dojo busting at Sifu Gales gym. It was almost comical. A Tai chi guy once. Two Korean tkd guys, then about two years later a black belt student of the two Korean tkd guys. Only the Tai chi guy walked out on his own two legs(because he realized his mistake). I really don’t have a problem with people trying it, as long as they don’t get the idea that it’s going to ”be nice”. Bullshido is just that, and it needs to be called out for  what it is. Rules of the forum make sense because we are online and people can say or make up whatever they want. I don’t do it myself because I don’t care what others are doing, and I don’t want to go around town being an ***.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> Eat…eat heartily…keep eating😈


Lol!


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## lklawson (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> I remember hearing about a U.K.-based Japanese senior swordsman who applied to the Japanese government for the legal papers to challenge someone with whom he had an argument, to a duel to-the-death! He received them and the other guy avoided him thereafter!😄😆


I haven't personally seen anything that extreme but I have seen disagreements grow into a "challenge match."  I recall it happening between Judoka a couple of different times.  One case, one person backed down, the other no-showed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gyakuto (Dec 13, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I actually Have seen a three different attempts at dojo busting at Sifu Gales gym. It was almost comical. A Tai chi guy once. Two Korean tkd guys, then about two years later a black belt student of the two Korean tkd guys. Only the Tai chi guy walked out on his own two legs(because he realized his mistake). I really don’t have a problem with people trying it, as long as they don’t get the idea that it’s going to ”be nice”. Bullshido is just that, and it needs to be called out for  what it is. Rules of the forum make sense because we are online and people can say or make up whatever they want. I don’t do it myself because I don’t care what others are doing, and I don’t want to go around town being an ***.


I have never heard of this occurring in modern times. I think it must be all the hormones they’re injecting into beef cattle 😉


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> I’m surprised the biggest contributer to ill-health, obesity, rain forest clearance and animal suffering  (the burger people) haven’t objected to the term ‘McDojo’.


I'm sure they have.  McDojo.com is owned by McDonald's I believe.  IF not them, the Lizard Illuminati.

Anybody who tries to commercial use "Mc" gets super-sued.


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## lklawson (Dec 13, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'm sure they have.  McDojo.com is owned by McDonald's I believe.  IF not them, the Lizard Illuminati.
> 
> Anybody who tries to commercial use "Mc" gets super-sued.


It was actually owned by the folks who eventually started Bullshido.net and was basically the same forum.  I read some on it way back when.  Rumor is that McDonalds sued and they changed.


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## lklawson (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> I have never heard of this occurring in modern times. I think it must be all the hormones they’re injecting into beef cattle 😉


Never really stopped.  It's actually less now than before but still happens sometimes.  Never heard of the Chicago's "Dojo Wars" or "Dojo Storming?"

Heck, Gracie devotees had gotten a reputation of just showing up to other martial arts schools and challenging everyone from the head instructor on down.  Apparently that has become less common.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> I have never heard of this occurring in modern times. I think it must be all the hormones they’re injecting into beef cattle 😉


Lizard genes make people cold blooded.


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## bill miller (Dec 13, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> Eat…eat heartily…keep eating😈


tomorrow, a McRib and a quarter pounder with extra grease!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 13, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Never really stopped.  It's actually less now than before but still happens sometimes.  Never heard of the Chicago's "Dojo Wars" or "Dojo Storming?"
> 
> Heck, Gracie devotees had gotten a reputation of just showing up to other martial arts schools and challenging everyone from the head instructor on down.  Apparently that has become less common.
> 
> ...


There is a good story of it happening to Rickson Gracie in L.A.


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## Steve (Dec 13, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'm sure they have.  McDojo.com is owned by McDonald's I believe.  IF not them, the Lizard Illuminati.
> 
> Anybody who tries to commercial use "Mc" gets super-sued.


I'm so gullible, I checked.  FYI, the domain is for sale for a cool $3,500

While that might be out of one's price range, there are a lot of close options that are available for a song.







You're probably right about the lawsuits, though.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 13, 2021)

Steve said:


> For what it's worth, I see a lot of potential value in the idea of a club format. The club/non-profit model would definitely have a different vibe than going into a business.  There would be more of a community feel.  I don't know if it would affect quality one way or the other, but the culture of the school would certainly be different, and I could see it drawing a different type of student.
> 
> In America, I would guess that if someone wanted to learn European sword, a HEMA club would have a similar culture to what you describe in the UK.  I know that many (though not all) judo schools are run as non-profit clubs, and they seem to do okay.


Ive seen Aikido schools set up this way (some even seek out an instructor only after forming the club). It does have a nice vibe, and there’s a lot of commitment to the group. That happens with some for-profit schools, for sure, but it seems more likely with a club or non-profit.


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## Alan0354 (Dec 13, 2021)

What is so wrong about McDonald? It is a huge success throughout the decades, still pretty much #1 hamburger fast food. It has a certain standard, what make you think some other boutique burger place is better?

Back to MA school, just because it's popular and has dojo everywhere doesn't make it not as good, you judge by going there and look. I would not call it an insult just by naming similar to McDonald.

There are enough bulshitdo school too.


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## Steve (Dec 13, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> What is so wrong about McDonald? It is a huge success throughout the decades, still pretty much #1 hamburger fast food. It has a certain standard, what make you think some other boutique burger place is better?
> 
> Back to MA school, just because it's popular and has dojo everywhere doesn't make it not as good, you judge by going there and look. I would not call it an insult just by naming similar to McDonald.
> 
> There are enough bulshitdo school too.


Strictly speaking to McDonald's, I’m not against it.  My first job was at McDs and we made pretty good food.  But the quality of the ingredients is without a doubt inferior and they cook for speed and consistency.  Only point is, you can definitely do better. 

Shoot, get some good russet taters and some beef tallow, and I guarantee your fries will be better than McDonald’s.  The trick is to fry them twice.  But that’s inefficient.  Better for you, too. Not health food, but less bad for you than McDs  fries 🍟


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## Alan0354 (Dec 13, 2021)

Steve said:


> Strictly speaking to McDonald's, I’m not against it.  My first job was at McDs and we made pretty good food.  But the quality of the ingredients is without a doubt inferior and they cook for speed and consistency.  Only point is, you can definitely do better.
> 
> Shoot, get some good russet taters and some beef tallow, and I guarantee your fries will be better than McDonald’s.  The trick is to fry them twice.  But that’s inefficient.  Better for you, too. Not health food, but less bad for you than McDs  fries 🍟


Yes, it can be a lot better, but also can be worst. I love their fillet of fish burger and my big boss loves their big breakfast!!! I don't care for their burgers. I never eat fries, so no comment.( I eat too much unhealthy food already, I don't need those fries!!)

She like those egg McMuffin also.


Completely off topic, another famous fast food chain that is not so bad, the Pander Express for Chinese food. You can get much worst Chinese food in some restaurants. We even ordered food delivery for parties from them before. It's really not bad speaking as a Chinese that have enough experience in both eating and cooking Chinese food. AND we live in area I can go to a few Chinese restaurants by walking from home( I mean within 5 minutes, not marathon walk!!! ) So don't judge by the type, try it.


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 13, 2021)

Old kung fu saying, "never eat fast food".

I just made that up, but it's true.


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## BrendanF (Dec 13, 2021)

Had a McDonalds quarter pounder with cheese for the first time in over a decade about a week ago.

I now know why it had been so long.


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## Gyakuto (Dec 14, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Never really stopped.  It's actually less now than before but still happens sometimes.  Never heard of the Chicago's "Dojo Wars" or "Dojo Storming?"
> 
> Heck, Gracie devotees had gotten a reputation of just showing up to other martial arts schools and challenging everyone from the head instructor on down.  Apparently that has become less common.
> 
> ...


Wow, I had no idea. It’s _so_ uncouth.


----------



## Gyakuto (Dec 14, 2021)

bill miller said:


> tomorrow, a McRib and a quarter pounder with extra grease!


Oh..err Yum 😐 Drink in that grease…don’t even take a breath, unless it’s your last!😉


----------



## Gyakuto (Dec 14, 2021)

Steve said:


> Strictly speaking to McDonald's, I’m not against it.  My first job was at McDs and we made pretty good food.  But the quality of the ingredients is without a doubt inferior and they cook for speed and consistency.  Only point is, you can definitely do better.
> 
> Shoot, get some good russet taters and some beef tallow, and I guarantee your fries will be better than McDonald’s.  The trick is to fry them twice.  But that’s inefficient.  Better for you, too. Not health food, but less bad for you than McDs  fries 🍟


Have I diverted the path of this thread?😂

I’ll skilfully cajole it back: 

All ‘martial arts’, without direct affiliation to their country of origin and a chief instructor from that country (preferable with an inscrutable and pretty cool accent),  is a McDojo. True Budo keikogi must be white in colour with a maximum of _one_, tastefully embroidered (strictly in the country of origin’s own script) on the left breast. Belt colours must be limited to white, green, brown and black and the level of black belt grade must only be ascertainable by _asking_ the wearer and not silly tags. All techniques have to have been evaluated and codified by the ‘committee of authenticity’ which, naturally, is in the country of origin with a panel of top masters, all with white beards and calloused knuckles. Deviating from these laws will result in excommunication and the application of a Dim Mak death touch (with ‘3 years’ dialled-in).

There…I think that’s reasonable, measured _and_ clear…😑


----------



## Steve (Dec 14, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Old kung fu saying, "never eat fast food".
> 
> I just made that up, but it's true.


"If man made it, don't eat it."  - Jack LeLanne


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 14, 2021)

Another, legitimate, Chinese, Cantonese actually, saying

Anything that walks, swims, crawls, or flies with its back to heaven is edible.

Another one told to me by a Cantonese woman I used to know
"Cantonese eat anything with legs, except tables and chairs"

And another one...more geared to me I think

Better to be deprived of food for three days, than tea for one


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## dvcochran (Dec 14, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I agree with much of your point here, except the part about expectation. We have research that solidly shows it at least sometimes works backwards: how much something is priced affects the judgment of its value, rather than just the expectation against which it is judged. This is seen in things as basic as blind wine tastings, where the same wine is presented twice - once as an inexpensive wine, and once as an expensive wine. It is nearly always judged as a better-tasting wine when thought to be expensive. There's sufficient evidence of this effect on other products and services to believe it likely comes into play sometimes with martial arts.


I think I get what you are saying but in the wine taste testing example there is quite a lot of bias established on the front end of the research study. Telling most people "this is the expensive wine" is going to skew their judgement. Especially if the study group are average wine connoisseur's. I am not much of a wine drinker so I would make some assumption that the more expensive wine taste better, especially since I don't really know what constitutes a 'good wine'. 
Particularly when talking about a service I feel the expectation is easier defined, even if the person does not know a great deal about the service. So, you could just as easily 'dress up' the service being offered (happens all the time) and affect the judgement born on the service. But this would not greatly affect the expectation. If a person pursues a service to lose weight that is going to be their expectation. Judgement of the service may come down the road I fee.


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## Yamabushii (Dec 17, 2021)

Kuengi said:


> We were referring to "Dojo" schools ('generic' in general), you use the word, "team". A dear friend of mine is an Olympic Judo medalist, that was the USA Judo Team. They trained mercilessly. That said, he also trained during a time that, when you entered a place to learn any MA, you knew what you were getting into and whining was far less acceptable; I truly believe a Judge would have laughed you out of court. Times have changed in the US. When I have trained outside of the US, I got the worst (or best) of it as an American, but also only a little more than other students, they knew why they were there and accepted the fact that they were very likely to get hit. You also only refer to grappling arts. I do not believe that "style" has anything to do with it, it is a fact in America that it is most difficult to study seriously at all, but I do know that ALL should be studied, and seriously.


Are you saying this from a position of experience or as an educated guess? I see some truth in it but I also think that traditional martial arts and artists are falling behind the times in terms of practicality. There's way too much theory and so-called "deadly" techniques that are used as a scape goat, whereas the most hardcore schools tend to be boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, and wrestling here in the U.S. but they don't boast about "deadly techniques" nor do you hear their schools complaining about insurance claims.


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## dvcochran (Dec 18, 2021)

Yamabushii said:


> Are you saying this from a position of experience or as an educated guess? I see some truth in it but I also think that traditional martial arts and artists are falling behind the times in terms of practicality. There's way too much theory and so-called "deadly" techniques that are used as a scape goat, whereas the most hardcore schools tend to be boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, and wrestling here in the U.S. but they don't boast about "deadly techniques" nor do you hear their schools complaining about insurance claims.


I agree with this in part, but you would need to better define 'hard core' schools.


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## Yamabushii (Dec 18, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I agree with this in part, but you would need to better define 'hard core' schools.


A lot more sparring and more physicality, both things that are more likely to end up with people getting hurt and ending up with insurance claims, yet the latter doesn't happen as much. Mind you, I was pretty fortunate that both schools where I started two of my traditional arts had a good balance, so there are exceptions to the rule but from what I've seen, they're also the rarity.


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## Yamabushii (Dec 18, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners. Im saying this because I've experienced some of that on this forum myself.



I partially agree. I think anyone that trains in any traditional martial arts school has experienced that at some point. The problem is that there are concepts which traditional martial arts occasionally teach as opposed to sparring that confuse people who don't train in anything traditional, and those people try to connect the dots with a school/instructor that's a flat out fraud to something they think looks silly just out of sheer ignorance. Yes there are schools and teachers that are complete frauds, yes they should get called out because they're endangering people's lives, but should you do it? Should you call them a McDojo? Honestly, if you don't know for sure it's better to just shut up. Otherwise, do the proper research with an open mind.


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## Hanzou (Dec 18, 2021)

Yamabushii said:


> Are you saying this from a position of experience or as an educated guess? I see some truth in it but I also think that traditional martial arts and artists are falling behind the times in terms of practicality.


Hard to argue against that. Also the gap is widening considerably.


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## Steve (Dec 20, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> In the U.K, monetising Budo is a relatively new phenomenon and I think this has stifled the proliferation of McDojo (although there are _some_). In my art, we are not _allowed_ to make a profit, but only cover hall-hire expenses and our insurance costs, which are pretty minimal with our national governing association (people are generally less litigious in the U.K. , but that is changing thanks to the legal models being imported from our cousins ‘across the pond’!)





Steve said:


> Sounds very different over there.  Who enforces the requirement to not turn a profit?  I mean, is the government imposing that, or is it the style/organization?  Curious to learn more about that, because it sounds like some styles are running for profit, so I'm wondering what the difference is.



Did this ever get explained?  I'm really curious how this works in the UK.  Can anyone who is familiar with how it works in the UK explain who is imposing limits on profit, and why or how some can run for profit and others cannot?


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## MadMartigan (Dec 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> Did this ever get explained? I'm really curious how this works in the UK. Can anyone who is familiar with how it works in the UK explain who is imposing limits on profit, and why or how some can run for profit and others cannot?


While a slight assumption on my part... I took his statement of "in my art we are not allowed to make a profit" to refer to his organization. I don't think it had anything to do with the laws in the UK. Just one of those styles that doesn't allow it within their own org is my guess.


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## Steve (Dec 20, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> While a slight assumption on my part... I took his statement of "in my art we are not allowed to make a profit" to refer to his organization. I don't think it had anything to do with the laws in the UK. Just one of those styles that doesn't allow it within their own org is my guess.


Ah. Okay.  That makes sense, I guess. Thanks.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 20, 2021)

lklawson said:


> Nothing stopping it except other martial artists who want to "be nice."  Most people here get mad at "dojo busting," challenging other instructors, exposing "bullshido," and the like.  In fact, doing the "bullshido" thing is explicitly prohibited here.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk





Gyakuto said:


> Wow, I had no idea. It’s _so_ uncouth.


Haters gonna hate. Let em come.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 20, 2021)

Yamabushii said:


> I partially agree. I think anyone that trains in any traditional martial arts school has experienced that at some point. The problem is that there are concepts which traditional martial arts occasionally teach as opposed to sparring that confuse people who don't train in anything traditional, and those people try to connect the dots with a school/instructor that's a flat out fraud to something they think looks silly just out of sheer ignorance. Yes there are schools and teachers that are complete frauds, yes they should get called out because they're endangering people's lives, but should you do it? Should you call them a McDojo? Honestly, if you don't know for sure it's better to just shut up. Otherwise, do the proper research with an open mind.


Or go on in and challenge the teacher and see what happens…


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 20, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Hard to argue against that. Also the gap is widening considerably.


And you would base your statement on the current state of mma I’m guessing?


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Or go on in and challenge the teacher and see what happens…


So when people get old, and their joints go bad, and they can no longer fight as well as they did when they were young, their knowledge and their ability to pass that knowledge on goes away?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> Did this ever get explained?  I'm really curious how this works in the UK.  Can anyone who is familiar with how it works in the UK explain who is imposing limits on profit, and why or how some can run for profit and others cannot?


I never saw an explanation, but my read was that it was an organizational thing, not a governmental restriction. Could be wrong.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> So when people get old, and their joints go bad, and they can no longer fight as well as they did when they were young, their knowledge and their ability to pass that knowledge on goes away?


Not at all. Where did you get that idea? I have no doubt that Sifu Woo would take people apart even when he was 86. The fact is that one of the students will take the challenger up instantly. My point being that the easiest way to find out if the place is real is to go on in and try it out. It might be rude, mannerless, risky, etc. but the answer will be quite clear.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Not at all. Where did you get that idea? I have no doubt that Sifu Woo would take people apart even when he was 86. The fact is that one of the students will take the challenger up instantly. My point being that the easiest way to find out if the place is real is to go on in and try it out. It might be rude, mannerless, risky, etc. but the answer will be quite clear.


Not necessarily. If someone came in and challenged me rudely, they'd get no satisfaction. If they asked politely, I'd consider.


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## bill miller (Dec 20, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> So when people get old, and their joints go bad, and they can no longer fight as well as they did when they were young, their knowledge and their ability to pass that knowledge on goes away?


Absolutely not!


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## Hanzou (Dec 21, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> And you would base your statement on the current state of mma I’m guessing?


MMA and Bjj.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 21, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Not necessarily. If someone came in and challenged me rudely, they'd get no satisfaction. If they asked politely, I'd consider.


I’m not actually advocating this behavior, I have said I don’t do it. That said, I’m fine with people calling ME out. I have seen it done at our gym with my teacher, I have heard two stories of it happening at Sifu Woos gym long ago as well. This type of thing was commonplace in Canton in the 1930s. It’s part of martial arts regardless the judgement of its merit.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 21, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Not necessarily. If someone came in and challenged me rudely, they'd get no satisfaction. If they asked politely, I'd consider.


Sometime you may not have an option. Have you had this happen? I must admit, It is always a bit shocking when someone wants to risk it all over this nonsense, but whatever... at some point everybody finds out that there is always somebody tougher. I tend to see it as a potential opportunity to gain a student.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 21, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m not actually advocating this behavior, I have said I don’t do it. That said, I’m fine with people calling ME out. I have seen it done at our gym with my teacher, I have heard two stories of it happening at Sifu Woos gym long ago as well. This type of thing was commonplace in Canton in the 1930s. It’s part of martial arts regardless the judgement of its merit.


Again, I'd have no issue with someone doing it respectfully. I've never claimed to be a badass, so someone coming in and besting me in sparring isn't a problem. I've had students who had that potential.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 21, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Sometime you may not have an option. Have you had this happen? I must admit, It is always a bit shocking when someone wants to risk it all over this nonsense, but whatever... at some point everybody finds out that there is always somebody tougher. I tend to see it as a potential opportunity to gain a student.


I've never had anyone challenge me. If they challenged belligerently, I'd have a student call the police, same as I would if they walked into a retail store and did this. If they push it by attacking (the only way I don't have a choice), then it's no longer a challenge - it's an assault, and I'll treat it as such.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 21, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Again, I'd have no issue with someone doing it respectfully. I've never claimed to be a badass, so someone coming in and besting me in sparring isn't a problem. I've had students who had that potential.


I’m not talking about sparring. I’m not a tough guy either, I have known some, that’s how I know I’m not one. The times I’ve seen it, it was a fight, not a competition. Never heard of a respectful dojo buster, I don’t think that’s a thing.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 21, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I've never had anyone challenge me. If they challenged belligerently, I'd have a student call the police, same as I would if they walked into a retail store and did this. If they push it by attacking (the only way I don't have a choice), then it's no longer a challenge - it's an assault, and I'll treat it as such.


Okay fair enough. It isn’t something that happens all the time. Again, I’m not that worried about it. Both times that I saw it get real, it just happened, fast and boom it’s over. Very few words.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I've never had anyone challenge me. If they challenged belligerently, I'd have a student call the police, same as I would if they walked into a retail store and did this. If they push it by attacking (the only way I don't have a choice), then it's no longer a challenge - it's an assault, and I'll treat it as such.



Years ago I had lunch with Chen Zhenglei and part of the discussion was about a man (also from mainland China) in the area we were in that was claiming lineage to his family that he did not have. Chen Zhenglei visited him and told him to stop. Someone asked him why he did not teach him a lesson for making this claim (aka beat him up). Chen said this is America, that gets you to court, in China, it would be different. I know of a situation in China in Yiquan/Dachengquan that got to a "Stop making the claim, publicly apologize, or I will kick your butt" Guy took out an add said he was lying and apologized. 

I am pretty sure, in America, you go challenging someone, and start a fight, it will require to be standing in front of a judge soon thereafter. 

Yang Jwing Ming told a story about a challenge he got from some guy that came into his school (then in Boston) and challenged him. He told the guy no problem, but please take a seat, we will settle this after my class. The guy sat down to wait. Dr Yang paid little attention to him and went on to teach class, they were working on applications and some qinna. He said he looked a couple times and saw the guy still sitting there, and then he kind of forgot about him. Class ended, he turned to talk with the guy...and the guy was gone..... Dr Yang said he saw the guy on the street several times after that and the guy wold just smile and wave and keep right n walking


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 21, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Years ago I had lunch with Chen Zhenglei and part of the discussion was about a man (also from mainland China) in the area we were in that was claiming lineage to his family that he did not have. Chen Zhenglei visited him and told him to stop. Someone asked him why he did not teach him a lesson for making this claim (aka beat him up). Chen said this is America, that gets you to court, in China, it would be different. I know of a situation in China in Yiquan/Dachengquan that got to a "Stop making the claim, publicly apologize, or I will kick your butt" Guy took out an add said he was lying and apologized.
> 
> I am pretty sure, in America, you go challenging someone, and start a fight, it will require to be standing in front of a judge soon thereafter.
> 
> Yang Jwing Ming told a story about a challenge he got from some guy that came into his school (then in Boston) and challenged him. He told the guy no problem, but please take a seat, we will settle this after my class. The guy sat down to wait. Dr Yang paid little attention to him and went on to teach class, they were working on applications and some qinna. He said he looked a couple times and saw the guy still sitting there, and then he kind of forgot about him. Class ended, he turned to talk with the guy...and the guy was gone..... Dr Yang said he saw the guy on the street several times after that and the guy wold just smile and wave and keep right n walking


That’s a great story! Dr Yang has a school on the hill about an hour south of me in Miranda area. Simo knows him. I would train some with him if he was closer.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That’s a great story! Dr Yang has a school on the hill about an hour south of me in Miranda area. Simo knows him. I would train some with him if he was closer.



I did some qinna and push hands with him, but that was years ago when he and the main YMAA school was still in Boston


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 21, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> I did some qinna and push hands with him, but that was years ago when he and the main YMAA school was still in Boston


I’m in the redwoods of far north California.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m in the redwoods of far north California.



I visited Muir woods several years ago, but live about 3000 miles from there


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 21, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> I visited Muir woods several years ago, but live about 3000 miles from there


I’m about 250 miles north of there.


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## Steve (Dec 21, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m in the redwoods of far north California.


Used to have a lot of family around Eureka/Arcata.  Most have moved either further south, to around San Jose, or left the State entirely.  Really beautiful out there in Northern California.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> Used to have a lot of family around Eureka/Arcata.  Most have moved either further south, to around San Jose, or left the State entirely.  Really beautiful out there in Northern California.



Years ago a friend of mine moved to california, he may still be there. When he got there it was cold and raining. He started asking people "Where is California" And telling him all his life he was told California was sunny and warm and this place is wet and cold...where is California, to which no one seemed to have an answer. Then he was on the beach and saw this guy, the only guy on the beach, near a big drainage pipe, and asked him the same question. The guy actually started giving him directions, take this street, turn right, take this street kind of thing. When the guy stopped, looked at him for a second...and then said...."You're in California dude".... my friend later found the guy lived in the drain pipe, but he was the only one that actually gave him an answer.

He stopped asking and got a job in construction, have not seen or heard from him in years


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## Steve (Dec 21, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Years ago a friend of mine moved to california, he may still be there. When he got there it was cold and raining. He started asking people "Where is California" And telling him all his life he was told California was sunny and warm and this place is wet and cold...where is California, to which no one seemed to have an answer. Then he was on the beach and saw this guy, the only guy on the beach, near a big drainage pipe, and asked him the same question. The guy actually started giving him directions, take this street, turn right, take this street kind of thing. When the guy stopped, looked at him for a second...and then said...."You're in California dude".... my friend later found the guy lived in the drain pipe, but he was the only one that actually gave him an answer.
> 
> He stopped asking and got a job in construction, have not seen or heard from him in years


That's a funny story.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 21, 2021)

frank raud said:


> What if the dojo in question ticks off every box in the definition of a McDojo? Does it now become offensive to tell the truth? Should we encourage people to continue to work hard towards their 17th belt on the way to black belt mastery? Should we point out the fuchsia camo belt is not really traditional in Korean Shaolin Kung fu?


Well how about if their dojo doesn't tick off every box to qualify it for being a McDojo? Lets say for instance, if people are calling your dojo a McDojo for no other reason that students can sign up and test for rank promotion at their own discretion whenever they're running a test? Im not saying students will always pass, but that they can sign up and test if they want to, which means they might pass or they might fail.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 21, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> So what? Truth sometimes hurts.
> BTW Time and dedication can be invested in MC Dojo too.


But what if they aren't going to a McDojo?


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 21, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> And that some people choose to be offensive. I think some folks throw around terms like "McDojo" to troll. They don't even know what they mean, and don't really care. They just want to get a rise out of someone.


Perhaps you're right. But the problem is when somebody calls your dojo a McDojo just because of one thing they disagree with.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> Used to have a lot of family around Eureka/Arcata.  Most have moved either further south, to around San Jose, or left the State entirely.  Really beautiful out there in Northern California.


Did you ever live around here? Or train here? It’s cool to have someone who knows where this place is. Most people think s.f. Is the border of Oregon.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 21, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Much more important is the existence of the McDojo. It is an offense to all schools as a whole and makes it harder and harder for good schools to operate.


If anything I would think it would make it easier for good schools to operate. When students at McDojos lose badly in tournaments to students at good schools, and they will lose badly if they're going to MdDojos, then people will see just how much better the good schools are and go there instead.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 21, 2021)

mograph said:


> I thought that to be a “McDojo,” three qualifications had to be met:
> 1. Part of a chain
> 2. Low quality of instruction
> 3. Awarding of belts to unqualified individuals (too early)


Number 2 and 3 would definitely qualify a dojo as a McDojo but not number 1. I've known some good dojos that are parts of chains and some bad dojos that aren't parts of chains.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 21, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Perhaps you're right. But the problem is when somebody calls your dojo a McDojo just because of one thing they disagree with.


No, the problem is when you allow your self-worth to be based on outside opinions.


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## Steve (Dec 21, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Perhaps you're right. But the problem is when somebody calls your dojo a McDojo just because of one thing they disagree with.


If someone calls you a Wonderful Human Being, but they mean for it to be insulting (sarcastic or snarky), then you will probably be insulted.  At least, I wouldn't be surprised if you were, and neither should they.  If someone calls you a big jerk, but they mean it as a term of endearment, you will probably not be insulted.  

Point is, what is being said matters way less than what is intended.   If you say something (even nice things) but mean to be offensive, you probably shouldn't be surprised if the person is offended.  

There's also a little bit of an ownership thing here, too.  The old thing where someone insults your family member, and they say, "Hey, you call him a jerk all the time.  Why are you upset?"  "He's my brother.  Only I can call him a jerk."  

So, there might be a little bit of, "You can't call my school a McDojo.  It's my school, and only I can call it a McDojo."


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## Steve (Dec 21, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Did you ever live around here? Or train here? It’s cool to have someone who knows where this place is. Most people think s.f. Is the border of Oregon.


Nope. I've never lived in California.  Spent most of my youth in Louisiana and Texas, and then moved to Seattle as a teenager.

Visited many times, though.  As I said, a lot of family in that area at one time.  I also have a mystery cousin who is still in that area.  I think my Uncle Joe had a fling while he and his wife were separated, but I'll probably never know for sure.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> Nope. I've never lived in California.  Spent most of my youth in Louisiana and Texas, and then moved to Seattle as a teenager.
> 
> Visited many times, though.  As I said, a lot of family in that area at one time.  I also have a mystery cousin who is still in that area.  I think my Uncle Joe had a fling while he and his wife were separated, but I'll probably never know for sure.


Oh just curious. Come visit sometime, bring Xue and Crane with you.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 21, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Oh just curious. Come visit sometime, bring Xue and Crane with you.


And Jow Ga Wolf too.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> I also have a mystery cousin



My wife has a musteriouscosinin Beijing...... no one knows what he does for a living..and everyone is afraid to ask him...the speculation is he works for the government...spy, secret police, special forces something along those lines....all they know for sure is several years ago three guys were beating up my future brother-in-law (who was a weight lifter then - see "How Effective is Bodybuilding For Self Defence?)
 and this mysterious cousin walked in the middle, dropped all three guys in a second (no weapon, just hands and feet) and calmly escorted my future brother-in-law out of there


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## dvcochran (Dec 21, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> If anything I would think it would make it easier for good schools to operate. When students at McDojos lose badly in tournaments to students at good schools, and they will lose badly if they're going to MdDojos, then people will see just how much better the good schools are and go there instead.


IF they are going to open tournaments. Very often everything is closed circuit, even the tournaments. 
Kids especially fall into the category and honestly I do not think it is as big a deal for them. All too often, hings like pressure testing just do not carry as much weight for kids. Not necessarily a bad thing in good, reasonable measure.


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## frank raud (Dec 21, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well how about if their dojo doesn't tick off every box to qualify it for being a McDojo? Lets say for instance, if people are calling your dojo a McDojo for no other reason that students can sign up and test for rank promotion at their own discretion whenever they're running a test? Im not saying students will always pass, but that they can sign up and test if they want to, which means they might pass or they might fail.


Congratulations. You manage to avoid answering my question.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 22, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> And Jow Ga Wolf too.


And simon


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 22, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, the problem is when you allow your self-worth to be based on outside opinions.


Im not talking about my self worth Im talking about the worth of a dojo that I choose to train at.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> If someone calls you a Wonderful Human Being, but they mean for it to be insulting (sarcastic or snarky), then you will probably be insulted.  At least, I wouldn't be surprised if you were, and neither should they.  If someone calls you a big jerk, but they mean it as a term of endearment, you will probably not be insulted.
> 
> Point is, what is being said matters way less than what is intended.   If you say something (even nice things) but mean to be offensive, you probably shouldn't be surprised if the person is offended.
> 
> ...


That's all fine and dandy when somebody is saying stuff to you out loud but on internet forums such as this one we don't communicate by talking out loud we communicate in writing. Sarcasm, and other instances when you don't mean literally what you say (and might even mean the opposite of what you say as you point out) is easy enough to notice when people are talking out loud but its not so obvious when done in writing. That being the case its not so obvious on internet forums (such as this one.)


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 22, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> IF they are going to open tournaments. Very often everything is closed circuit, even the tournaments.
> Kids especially fall into the category and honestly I do not think it is as big a deal for them. All too often, hings like pressure testing just do not carry as much weight for kids. Not necessarily a bad thing in good, reasonable measure.


Alright well there is also the issue of students being able to defend themselves in real life confrontations on the street, in school, ect. If a dojo produces students who can defend themselves then you know its a good dojo, if they produce students who routinely get pounded in confrontations, then you know they're a McDojo.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 22, 2021)

frank raud said:


> Congratulations. You manage to avoid answering my question.


You mean your question about whether or not a dojo ticks off every box in the definition of a McDojo. Before I can answer that you would have to provide the list for me of the characteristics that a dojo would have to meet for it to be a McDojo. Such a list can vary.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 22, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright well there is also the issue of students being able to defend themselves in real life confrontations on the street, in school, ect. If a dojo produces students who can defend themselves then you know its a good dojo, if they produce students who routinely get pounded in confrontations, then you know they're a McDojo.


Most dojos have few students who are in situations where they are likely to get pounded, with or without training, so it's difficult to judge the training from that. The best you can hope for is feedback from people who use their training regularly (LEO, bouncers, jailers, etc.).


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## frank raud (Dec 22, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> You mean your question about whether or not a dojo ticks off every box in the definition of a McDojo. Before I can answer that you would have to provide the list for me of the characteristics that a dojo would have to meet for it to be a McDojo. Such a list can vary.


Congratulations. You managed to avoid answering the question again. Your list will probably be different than mine. So if I list everything I think makes a place a McDojo and you don't agree with everything on my list, is it or is it not a McDojo? Rather than trying to obsfuscate, try a simple approach. If a place is in fact a McDojo( by whatever definition you define), is it an insult to call it by name ?


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 22, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Im not talking about my self worth Im talking about the worth of a dojo that I choose to train at.


Dojos don't have feelings to hurt. You cannot insult a building.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 22, 2021)

frank raud said:


> Congratulations. You managed to avoid answering the question again. Your list will probably be different than mine. So if I list everything I think makes a place a McDojo and you don't agree with everything on my list, is it or is it not a McDojo? Rather than trying to obsfuscate, try a simple approach. If a place is in fact a McDojo( by whatever definition you define), is it an insult to call it by name ?


Ok, so what if your school happens to perfectly match my criteria for the definition of a McDojo?  Does that make it so?  Is it an insult if I come on here and insist that your school is the crappiest McDojo to ever open its doors?  If I shout it loud and clear from the mountaintops?

Is your school a McDojo?  What if I insist that it is?


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 22, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> My wife has a musteriouscosinin Beijing...... no one knows what he does for a living..and everyone is afraid to ask him...the speculation is he works for the government...spy, secret police, special forces something along those lines....all they know for sure is several years ago three guys were beating up my future brother-in-law (who was a weight lifter then - see "How Effective is Bodybuilding For Self Defence?)
> and this mysterious cousin walked in the middle, dropped all three guys in a second (no weapon, just hands and feet) and calmly escorted my future brother-in-law out of there


Wow, I need to proof read more "musteriouscosinin" = "Mysterious cousin in"


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 22, 2021)

frank raud said:


> Congratulations. You managed to avoid answering the question again. Your list will probably be different than mine. So if I list everything I think makes a place a McDojo and you don't agree with everything on my list, is it or is it not a McDojo? Rather than trying to obsfuscate, try a simple approach. If a place is in fact a McDojo( by whatever definition you define), is it an insult to call it by name ?


I think this gets into the nature of what an insult is. If you are short, and I call you short, is that an insult? It probably depends on my intent (which I think someone has said earlier). There are terms which are inherently insulting: if you call me ugly, that's an insult (and a damned lie!!).

I've never heard the term "McDojo" used in a neutral or positive sense. It's always at least mildly derogatory, so far as I can tell. So the term appears to be inherently insulting. Of course, it's always possible I tell someone "Your dojo is a complete McDojo, because you do _X." _They may agree that X happens there, but disagree that it's a problem. I have met at least one person who would term any school using kata as a "McDojo" (with no apparent tie to the origins of that term). If he said that about my program, I'd simply shrug it off, because I don't see the existence of kata as an inherent problem. So if that's his only criteria, his term is meaningless to me. It's about like someone saying "That car model only comes in AWD, and AWD is complete crap, so that car is complete crap." Since I don't agree with the premise, his conclusion lacks any merit to me.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 22, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Wow, I need to proof read more "musteriouscosinin" = "Mysterious cousin in"


I honestly thought you did it on purpose.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 22, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Wow, I need to proof read more "musteriouscosinin" = "Mysterious cousin in"


I enjoyed hearing it in my head with those words rushed together. Somehow, it sounded more ominous.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 22, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Dojos don't have feelings to hurt. You cannot insult a building.


How about a stop sign? Because I saw someone berating one this morning.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 22, 2021)

frank raud said:


> Congratulations. You managed to avoid answering the question again. Your list will probably be different than mine. So if I list everything I think makes a place a McDojo and you don't agree with everything on my list, is it or is it not a McDojo? Rather than trying to obsfuscate, try a simple approach. If a place is in fact a McDojo( by whatever definition you define), is it an insult to call it by name ?


Why do you keep congratulating me?

And I can't answer a question that's unanswerable.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 22, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Dojos don't have feelings to hurt. You cannot insult a building.


No but you can insult the person in charge of the dojo, the chief instructor. When you call a dojo a McDojo that's an insult to the chief instructor.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 22, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> No but you can insult the person in charge of the dojo, the chief instructor. When you call a dojo a McDojo that's an insult to the chief instructor.


Only if your self-worth is determined by the opinions of others. 
I may have suggested that before...


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## frank raud (Dec 22, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Why do you keep congratulating me?
> 
> And I can't answer a question that's unanswerable.


Congratulations.


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## dvcochran (Dec 23, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright well there is also the issue of students being able to defend themselves in real life confrontations on the street, in school, ect. If a dojo produces students who can defend themselves then you know its a good dojo, if they produce students who routinely get pounded in confrontations, then you know they're a McDojo.


For that to be an accurate assertion, every person from every Dojo/Dojang would have to be assaulted for the sample data to be accurate. I am very thankful this is not realistic.
In large measure, a person being able to defend themselves has more to do with their upbringing and mental makeup. The skills learned from a MA is an augmentation. Not the end all, be all fix for being able to defend oneself. 
Adding competition to the equation is when this discussion can get blurry.


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## lklawson (Dec 23, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright well there is also the issue of students being able to defend themselves in real life confrontations on the street, in school, ect. If a dojo produces students who can defend themselves then you know its a good dojo, if they produce students who routinely get pounded in confrontations, then you know they're a McDojo.


What if that's not why they're training or what they're training for?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (Dec 23, 2021)

lklawson said:


> What if that's not why they're training or what they're training for?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


This is a good question and it comes up all the time.  But what gets people through the door is seldom what keeps them there, at least in the McDojo business model.  If standardization is intrinsic to the model, then you must have a sophisticated orientation process to get people to buy into what you're selling and pull them away from special orders.  

So, I think a lot of what folks are training for stems from marketing and expectations of the school.  Some of the marketing that goes into styles is pretty sophisticated, and it just gets amped up as they are oriented to the school.   And to be clear, this isn't unique to martial arts schools... this is just what salesmen do.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 23, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> For that to be an accurate assertion, every person from every Dojo/Dojang would have to be assaulted for the sample data to be accurate. I am very thankful this is not realistic.
> In large measure, a person being able to defend themselves has more to do with their upbringing and mental makeup. The skills learned from a MA is an augmentation. Not the end all, be all fix for being able to defend oneself.
> Adding competition to the equation is when this discussion can get blurry.


Very nicely articulated.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 23, 2021)

Steve said:


> This is a good question and it comes up all the time.  But what gets people through the door is seldom what keeps them there, at least in the McDojo business model.  If standardization is intrinsic to the model, then you must have a sophisticated orientation process to get people to buy into what you're selling and pull them away from special orders.
> 
> So, I think a lot of what folks are training for stems from marketing and expectations of the school.  Some of the marketing that goes into styles is pretty sophisticated, and it just gets amped up as they are oriented to the school.   And to be clear, this isn't unique to martial arts schools... this is just what salesmen do.


We never advertised except an occasional run of flyers on notice boards. We got most students by word of mouth. If you couldn’t pay, Sifu Gale would have you do work at his house or muck out his horse stalls In exchange for training. People come through the door for myriad reasons and almost always stayed for completely different reasons. No kids, no gi, no belt, no rank, no tournaments, no breaking inanimate objects, no yelling, no macho bs, just hard work until you want to puke. He would tell us straight up “you come in here and do the work, do it more than you don’t do it and you will become it, there are no shortcuts.” Its like moving a mountain with a spoon, the process is the goal. Not many people are willing to work out like that, only those of us that were willing to submit to the training stayed and became part of the family. I imagine that my experience is not unique but also not very common. My Sifu included western boxing punches in our curriculum and removed traditional weapons training because he felt one was useful and the other somewhat antiquated. Would any of these details make us a mcdojo? I don’t know. I imagine a mcdojo as a standardized franchise type of business, which doesn’t necessarily mean bad product. The term mcdojo has a negative connotation because of the inference of cheap mass produced product easily obtained and consumed by the majority of the public. We (me) all like to feel like what we do and who we do it with is/are special. I believe that the insult comes as a result of  feeling like that “specialness” being taken away with a word. It really just depends on what people want out of their training, there isn’t anything inherently wrong with a gi or belts or tournaments. I said before, what brings a person through the door is rarely the same thing that keeps them coming back year after year. Call it whatever you want.


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## Steve (Dec 23, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> We never advertised except an occasional run of flyers on notice boards. We got most students by word of mouth. If you couldn’t pay, Sifu Gale would have you do work at his house or muck out his horse stalls In exchange for training. People come through the door for myriad reasons and almost always stayed for completely different reasons. No kids, no gi, no belt, no rank, no tournaments, no breaking inanimate objects, no yelling, no macho bs, just hard work until you want to puke. He would tell us straight up “you come in here and do the work, do it more than you don’t do it and you will become it, there are no shortcuts.” Its like moving a mountain with a spoon, the process is the goal. Not many people are willing to work out like that, only those of us that were willing to submit to the training stayed and became part of the family. I imagine that my experience is not unique but also not very common.


Sounds like a good way to go about it.  That kind of messaging is going to appeal to some folks.  But  since we're talking about McDojos here, I think the idea of a McDojo would be more like, "Come on in.  You can do it and it will be comfortable and safe... and fun." 



Wing Woo Gar said:


> My Sifu included western boxing punches in our curriculum and removed traditional weapons training because he felt one was useful and the other somewhat antiquated. Would any of these details make us a mcdojo? I don’t know. I imagine a mcdojo as a standardized franchise type of business, which doesn’t necessarily mean bad product. The term mcdojo has a negative connotation because of the inference of cheap mass produced product easily obtained and consumed by the majority of the public. We (me) all like to feel like what we do and who we do it with is/are special. I believe that the insult comes as a result of  feeling like that “specialness” being taken away with a word. It really just depends on what people want out of their training, there isn’t anything inherently wrong with a gi or belts or tournaments. I said before, what brings a person through the door is rarely the same thing that keeps them coming back year after year. Call it whatever you want.



Well, getting back to some things I said earlier... if it's meant to be insulting, it's an insult.  But I view it as simply prioritizing profits by way of standardization over quality.  Not to say you can't have quality... but that if there is a choice between sacrificing some quality for profit or vice versa, profits will be prioritized. 

Regarding the rhetoric around martial arts salesmanship (i.e., some signs you might be in a mcdojo), if you say the first, and get some version of the second, you are being redirected: 

I want to learn to fight -->  We don't teach people to fight; we teach them to defend themselves, and that looks different. (A common redirect)
I want to learn fancy jumping kicks... that's badass --> Ha.  Try that in a "real" fight.  XMA and tricking isn't martial arts; it's an abomination.  We teach real/serious martial arts here. (Seen in just about every thread on XMA, tricking, Parkour, etc).
I want to get fit --> Get fit on your own time. We teach technique here.  (Versions seen in some karate threads over the years)
I want to get fit --> Muscles can actually get in the way, and make you slower and less capable of fighting. (I recall this specifically from some Wing Chun threads over the years)
Should I compete? --> Competition is not self defense, and we discourage it because it reinforces bad habits that will get you killed.  (this is pretty common)
It seems like it will be hard --> My system is comfortable and nurturing, designed to teach you in a supportive and welcoming environment where you'll never even break a sweat. (a bit hyperbolic, but language like this is pretty easy to find on a lot of websites)

We see hints of it around here from time to time.  You can see how in the early interactions with new posters, there is a lot of redirection... a lot of, "Look, you don't know better" and "Here's how it really works".  Or something I saw recently, paraphrasing, "How long have you been training, so that I can figure out how to respond to you?" Which is a subtle way of saying, "You don't know as much as I do, and I am going to make sure you know it, so that you will be appropriately deferential in all future threads." 

It's all about sales, subordinating other people, and convincing them that what you're selling is what they really want, regardless of what they say they want.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 23, 2021)

Steve said:


> Sounds like a good way to go about it.  That kind of messaging is going to appeal to some folks.  But  since we're talking about McDojos here, I think the idea of a McDojo would be more like, "Come on in.  You can do it and it will be comfortable and safe... and fun."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very well put. You and some others here are quite skilled at articulating your thoughts. I need some grammar retraining. Those are all very good points. It makes sense to me.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 23, 2021)

Steve said:


> I want to get fit --> Get fit on your own time. We teach technique here.  (Versions seen in some karate threads over the years)



two excellent teacher I knew, one was Wing Chun the other was Xingyiquan. Both did not get into jumping jacks and push ups or any other sort of callisthenic at the beginning of class. Both felt they were there to teach Wing Chun and Xingyiquan, not jumping jacks and the calisthenics took up valuable class time



Steve said:


> We see hints of it around here from time to time.  You can see how in the early interactions with new posters, there is a lot of redirection... a lot of, "Look, you don't know better" and "Here's how it really works".  Or something I saw recently, paraphrasing, "How long have you been training, so that I can figure out how to respond to you?" Which is a subtle way of saying, "You don't know as much as I do, and I am going to make sure you know it, so that you will be appropriately deferential in all future threads."
> 
> It's all about sales, subordinating other people, and convincing them that what you're selling is what they really want, regardless of what they say they want.



Years ago when I was going to Beijing my wife and her family were trying to set up some training for me in push hands. My sister-in-law found a guy and asked if he would be interested in training an American while he was in Beijing,. He was all for it, knew everything there was to know about push hands. My sister-in-law contacted my wife to let her know, my sister-in-law then went back to set up a schedule. The gentleman asked if I had done push hands before, she said yes. HE asked who trained him in America, she did not know my teachers name but she said my Shigong (Teacher's teacher) was Tung Ying Chieh. All of a sudden the guy did not know that much about push hands and backed out of the whole thing


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## bill miller (Dec 23, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> All of a sudden the guy did not know that much about push hands and backed out of the whole ting


oops!


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 23, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> two excellent teacher I knew, one was Wing Chun the other was Xingyiquan. Both did not get into jumping jacks and push ups or any other sort of callisthenic at the beginning of class. Both felt they were there to teach Wing Chun and Xingyiquan, not jumping jacks and the calisthenics took up valuable class time


Agree. Class time is for learning the art, not calisthenics.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Agree. Class time is for learning the art, not calisthenics.


I'm of two minds on this. For serious students, I wholeheartedly agree. If I had an "advanced" class, there would be no group exercise - we'd warm up with some drills that don't have much risk. But for casual students, many of them don't have much information on fitness for the activity. But I don't want to divert too much time, and end up with too little time for the actual training.

So I spend some time building their fitness at the beginning of class. This also gives me a chance to gauge flexibility and to see if someone has an injury they've not disclosed (a lot of folks seem to think they shouldn't do anything about minor strains/pulls, and end up making them worse by trying to keep up with a drill). I've selected a few exercises that go a long way. I vary some of them, to teach additional exercises to the students, so they have more to select from for their at-home training. This is also time for me to ask questions of the students to see what they want/need to work on, and to give them some overview of what my plan is for the class.

I think this is probably more vital for grappling, as joints (especially shoulders) are much more at risk if they don't have good support muscles.


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## bill miller (Dec 23, 2021)

We would start with a few loosening drills, then move on to the basics, which we would repeat, adding depth of stance, and some speed as we went along. Then we would hold certain postures, such as the riding horse stance, and bow stance. After this we split in to groups, according to skill level, and worked the forms, and for the more advanced, the two man sets. This worked pretty well.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 23, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I'm of two minds on this. For serious students, I wholeheartedly agree. If I had an "advanced" class, there would be no group exercise - we'd warm up with some drills that don't have much risk. But for casual students, many of them don't have much information on fitness for the activity. But I don't want to divert too much time, and end up with too little time for the actual training.


I don't disagree. You know I'm all about guidelines, not rules. We do warmup stuff. I'm just unwilling to spend a lot of time in class on anything other than the actual training. I teaching stretching and such, but I find it unlikely that anyone who is going or went to school in the US won't be familiar with basic exercises. That should be sufficient for "casual" students. If they're more serious, then in today's world, they won't have any difficulty finding lots and lots of fitness tutorials.


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## dvcochran (Dec 23, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Agree. Class time is for learning the art, not calisthenics.


Agree to a degree. I do not care much for static stretching at the beginning of class but stretch at the end of every class. 1-2 times/week we have a long stretch (15 minutes) at the end of class. 
Particularly for TKD it is just necessary for kicks.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 23, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Only if your self-worth is determined by the opinions of others.
> I may have suggested that before...


If you insult somebody's instructor they're probably going to take it personally.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't disagree. You know I'm all about guidelines, not rules. We do warmup stuff. I'm just unwilling to spend a lot of time in class on anything other than the actual training. I teaching stretching and such, but I find it unlikely that anyone who is going or went to school in the US won't be familiar with basic exercises. That should be sufficient for "casual" students. If they're more serious, then in today's world, they won't have any difficulty finding lots and lots of fitness tutorials.


I've just had a bunch of students come in who couldn't do a proper push-up, had no idea what a mountain climber or turkish get-up were, etc. So I teach a few exercises and some variations. Part of that is teaching to students like me, who need more variety to keep a routine of training away from class. Hopefully far from the majority of students.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Agree to a degree. I do not care much for static stretching at the beginning of class but stretch at the end of every class. 1-2 times/week we have a long stretch (15 minutes) at the end of class.
> Particularly for TKD it is just necessary for kicks.


I think with folks who sit for work, it's necessary for all styles, to varying degrees. I try to remember to leave time for at least a few cool-down stretches, but I don't always notice the passage of time, so it gets missed.


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## isshinryuronin (Dec 23, 2021)

Steve said:


> I think the idea of a McDojo would be more like, "Come on in. You can do it and it will be comfortable and safe... and fun."


But think of the alternative - "Come on in.  You won't be able to do it well for many months, during which time you will be sweaty, sore, out of your comfort zone, confused, feeling uncoordinated and constantly corrected.  And, oh yeah, there is a good chance you'll get a black eye, split lip, jammed finger, bruised ribs and knots on your shins, and count on getting a good kick to the nuts at least once."  All this for just $95 per month?  SIGN ME UP!


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## dvcochran (Dec 24, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think with folks who sit for work, it's necessary for all styles, to varying degrees. I try to remember to leave time for at least a few cool-down stretches, but I don't always notice the passage of time, so it gets missed.


Sedentary work could be a factor, but we live in a very blue-collar town and the large percentage of our adults work outside or in a factory environment. Some are 'stiff as a board', some are naturally more flexible. I cannot say there is a ton of predictability in flexibility. Even age is not a hard predictor, but it is very apparent that the older we get the less value it has in a sustained encounter (sparring & such). This is very much where muscle and strength come into play. 
To your point on toughness, there may be more 'hardening' with some of the blue-collar people vs. white-collar folks but that is not a hard predictor either.
For the people who really want to get into it and learn and grow, background may not have a ton to do with it. It is what they want to do/be going forward.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 24, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Sedentary work could be a factor, but we live in a very blue-collar town and the large percentage of our adults work outside or in a factory environment. Some are 'stiff as a board', some are naturally more flexible. I cannot say there is a ton of predictability in flexibility. Even age is not a hard predictor, but it is very apparent that the older we get the less value it has in a sustained encounter (sparring & such). This is very much where muscle and strength come into play.
> To your point on toughness, there may be more 'hardening' with some of the blue-collar people vs. white-collar folks but that is not a hard predictor either.
> For the people who really want to get into it and learn and grow, background may not have a ton to do with it. It is what they want to do/be going forward.


I do think work type is a reasonable partial predictor for toughness, though it's not absolute. You certainly can get some tough folks who work desk jobs, and the rare person without toughness who works, say, construction. But hard physical work both develops toughness and weeds out folks who lack it (people select work that doesn't make them feel awful). If you had to make 100 bets about whether individuals' toughness was abover or below average, you could probably stay on the winning side by using occupation.

I think it's a safe conclusion that physical work toughens the same way, say, sparring does. If all I ever do is tap-sparring, and you do full-contact stuff, you're probably tougher as a result (assuming we started out with similar toughness).


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 24, 2021)

PhotonGuy said:


> If you insult somebody's instructor they're probably going to take it personally.


Sure, there are lots of people running around loose who need to grow up.


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## r.d.mcdaniel (Dec 24, 2021)

I started studying Kyokushin Karate in 1973. My Sensei was a real tough guy, State level wrestler in High School, semi pro boxer and 3rd. Dan in Kyokushin. We sparred hard every class and minor injuries were very common. The school did not cater to children, it was mostly adults in the class and a few teenagers. There were only about 12-16 people in the class at a time and I remember paying $12.00 a month to start so this was not my Sensei's sole source of income, it was really more of a club.
      During my high school years I took a break from Karate to wrestle and try to meet girls. During my 20's I went back to Karate but by then my old Sensei had moved away, I studied under my Sensei's Sensei. He had devoted his life to martial arts, no question about his knowledge or skill. This class had some adults, some were very skilled, and a lot of kids. The adults were held to a high standard but the kids were moved right up in the belts in order to keep them interested ( and paying? )
        At some point I began teaching under contract with my Sensei at a military base and then when my second child was born I began teaching out of my home while staying connected to the school system.
      I took my class to the rankings at my Sensei's school. I was often asked to kind of run the rankings under the direction of Sensei. I had a real problem with giving junior black belts to kids that I believed were far from worthy of receiving them and I said so many times and my complaints were always ignored.
         Looking back now, decades later it has occured to me that the school model that I started with would likely never make a successful business, it's difficult to find enough adults that are willing to go to class and constantly deal with the bumps, bruises and constant soreness. While I still don't believe in giving kids a higher rank just to keep them coming to class, I understand that commercial Dojo's are first and foremost a business that need to turn a profit.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> But think of the alternative - "Come on in.  You won't be able to do it well for many months, during which time you will be sweaty, sore, out of your comfort zone, confused, feeling uncoordinated and constantly corrected.  And, oh yeah, there is a good chance you'll get a black eye, split lip, jammed finger, bruised ribs and knots on your shins, and count on getting a good kick to the nuts at least once."  All this for just $95 per month?  SIGN ME UP!


You charge 95.00? I give you all that stuff for 7.50 per class. I run a 30 minute warmup that is fast hard excercise. Muscle changing and marrow washing classics plus pushups and all that. Then we do drills, then the enpair ups or forms.I teach it the way I was taught. I hear what you are all saying, but I don’t do it that way. If they want to train with me then they are going to give it what they have to give. I’m willing to help each person get there but I don’t lower standards. It may take one person years, and someone else decades. That has nothing to do with process. When we are little they tell us we can be anything, this is as far from the truth as Santa Claus. I’m ready for the recriminations about how I’m mean and all that. I offer no apologies. I didnt create the system, I am the result of the training. It’s not for everyone. I am willing to give anyone my best, that’s what I offer.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 25, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I do think work type is a reasonable partial predictor for toughness, though it's not absolute. You certainly can get some tough folks who work desk jobs, and the rare person without toughness who works, say, construction. But hard physical work both develops toughness and weeds out folks who lack it (people select work that doesn't make them feel awful). If you had to make 100 bets about whether individuals' toughness was abover or below average, you could probably stay on the winning side by using occupation.
> 
> I think it's a safe conclusion that physical work toughens the same way, say, sparring does. If all I ever do is tap-sparring, and you do full-contact stuff, you're probably tougher as a result (assuming we started out with similar toughness).


I agree. I also see what I refer to as occupational posture. Often, it is easy to tell what type of work people do based on posture and how they move. Many of the very physical jobs don’t lend themselves to flexibility in motion. Some folks need extra help to get mobility and range of motion adequate for some parts of training.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 25, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You charge 95.00? I give you all that stuff for 7.50 per class. I run a 30 minute warmup that is fast hard excercise. Muscle changing and marrow washing classics plus pushups and all that. Then we do drills, then the enpair ups or forms.I teach it the way I was taught. I hear what you are all saying, but I don’t do it that way. If they want to train with me then they are going to give it what they have to give. I’m willing to help each person get there but I don’t lower standards. It may take one person years, and someone else decades. That has nothing to do with process. When we are little they tell us we can be anything, this is as far from the truth as Santa Claus. I’m ready for the recriminations about how I’m mean and all that. I offer no apologies. I didnt create the system, I am the result of the training. It’s not for everyone. I am willing to give anyone my best, that’s what I offer.


I should have mentioned we don’t let people spar at first and we don’t ask people to do anything they don’t want to do. I personally believe that the calisthenics that we do are a very important part of the system. I also believe that starting every training session this way prevents injury during training as well as reinforcing the foundational basics of the system. I am all for variety and I find it interesting the way most folks do it so much differently. Each system has its own valid way, this is just mine.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 25, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure, there are lots of people running around loose who need to grow up.


The guy doing the insult or the guy taking it personally?


----------



## bill miller (Dec 26, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> The guy doing the insult or the guy taking it personally?


I would think, possibly both.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 26, 2021)

bill miller said:


> I would think, possibly both.


That’s the way I see it too. I just like poking the bear sometimes.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 26, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> The guy doing the insult or the guy taking it personally?


Generally, both.


----------



## bill miller (Dec 26, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That’s the way I see it too. I just like poking the bear sometimes.


I poked a bobcat once......just once!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 26, 2021)

bill miller said:


> I poked a bobcat once......just once!


Ouch! Care to elaborate on that?


----------



## bill miller (Dec 26, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ouch! Care to elaborate on that?


Sure. I was down in the wolf river bottoms doing some plinking when we came across what I thought was a dead bobcat. As my .22 was empty, I poke critter with the muzzle and it sprung straight up and let out a yell. I fell over backwards in to what turned out to be poison ivy, the cat posture just for a second, then jumped in to the brush! I learned a valuable life lesson: Never poke a bobcat with an empty weapon!!!!


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 27, 2021)

bill miller said:


> Sure. I was down in the wolf river bottoms doing some plinking when we came across what I thought was a dead bobcat. As my .22 was empty, I poke critter with the muzzle and it sprung straight up and let out a yell. I fell over backwards in to what turned out to be poison ivy, the cat posture just for a second, then jumped in to the brush! I learned a valuable life lesson: Never poke a bobcat with an empty weapon!!!!


Growing up we had serious coyote and varmint problems. You could make good money from some of the pelts. Me and my older brother really got into trapping back then. You learned really quick to make certain they were dead before getting too close and having a loaded long arm was 101. Badger pelts brought the best money, but they are resilient, feisty animals, and were almost always still alive in the trap. Wicked sharp teeth. Ironically, surprisingly easy to knockout.
We had/have several mountain lions in our area. Have had signs of a catch before but our traps were just not strong enough to hold an animal of that size.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 27, 2021)

bill miller said:


> Sure. I was down in the wolf river bottoms doing some plinking when we came across what I thought was a dead bobcat. As my .22 was empty, I poke critter with the muzzle and it sprung straight up and let out a yell. I fell over backwards in to what turned out to be poison ivy, the cat posture just for a second, then jumped in to the brush! I learned a valuable life lesson: Never poke a bobcat with an empty weapon!!!!


A better lesson might be: always know where the poison Ivy is.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 27, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> A better lesson might be: always know where the poison Ivy is.


It is everywhere here. I am fortunate not to be allergic.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 27, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Growing up we had serious coyote and varmint problems. You could make good money from some of the pelts. Me and my older brother really got into trapping back then. You learned really quick to make certain they were dead before getting too close and having a loaded long arm was 101. Badger pelts brought the best money, but they are resilient, feisty animals, and were almost always still alive in the trap. Wicked sharp teeth. Ironically, surprisingly easy to knockout.
> We had/have several mountain lions in our area. Have had signs of a catch before but our traps were just not strong enough to hold an animal of that size.


I grew up hunting with my granddad. I became an exotic animal vet tech and then zookeeper before going into human medicine. I dont hunt but I do shoot a lot. I bottle raised a cougar that was abandoned by its mother. His name was Navajo and he was gentle and sweet like a house cat. I also took care of bobcats and badgers (baby) and (broccoli). I never poked baby but I did walk her on a leash to go kill rats in the compound. I also knew the mountain lion named pride that was in the old lincoln Mercury cougar commercials. He was very special.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 27, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> A better lesson might be: always know where the poison Ivy is.


Nope, never ever shoot yourself dry.


----------



## bill miller (Dec 27, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I also knew the mountain lion named pride that was in the old lincoln Mercury cougar commercials. He was very special.


MGM studios lion mascot, Leo, was from the Memphis zoo. I'm not sure when it was filmed, but I know it was way before my time. And I am old!!


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## Flying Crane (Dec 27, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Nope, never ever shoot yourself dry.


Ah well, perhaps a bobcat that isn’t moving and looks like it might be dead, is just trying to go un-noticed.  Best to just walk on by.


----------



## bill miller (Dec 27, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ah well, perhaps a bobcat that isn’t moving and looks like it might be dead, is just trying to go un-noticed. Best to just walk on by.


It was a typical,"Hey, Y'all - Watch this!" moment.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 27, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ah well, perhaps a bobcat that isn’t moving and looks like it might be dead, is just trying to go un-noticed.  Best to just walk on by.


Bet it was snoozing. They sleep soundly, surprisingly enough.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 27, 2021)

bill miller said:


> It was a typical,"Hey, Y'all - Watch this!" moment.


Lol!


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 27, 2021)

bill miller said:


> It was a typical,"Hey, Y'all - Watch this!" moment.


Sure, I understand.  I’m not trying to give you a hard time.  Just making an observation.


----------



## Steve (Dec 27, 2021)

bill miller said:


> It was a typical,"Hey, Y'all - Watch this!" moment.


----------



## bill miller (Dec 27, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> ure, I understand. I’m not trying to give you a hard time. Just making an


I just like getting a response!


----------



## Mider (Jan 8, 2022)

PhotonGuy said:


> Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners. Im saying this because I've experienced some of that on this forum myself.


If A dojo teaches nonsense that doesn’t help a student learn to defend themselves it’s a McDojo.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 8, 2022)

Mider said:


> If A dojo teaches nonsense that doesn’t help a student learn to defend themselves it’s a McDojo.


I understand your sentiment, but there are _many_ ‘legitimate martial arts’ that won’t help the student consistently defend themselves against an uncooperative, fully-resisting, aggressive assailant.

I think a McDojo is one where the provenance of the techniques is deliberately misrepresented to lend the art an air of ancient superiority because all know, old things are much better than modern things 🙄😉


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 8, 2022)

Mider said:


> If A dojo teaches nonsense that doesn’t help a student learn to defend themselves it’s a McDojo.


So.... according to you, every Kenjutsu school is a McDojo? It's not exactly useful for defending yourself in todays world.


----------



## BrendanF (Jan 8, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's not exactly useful for defending yourself in todays world.



Worked alright for me last time someone tried to do a home invasion - chased him off with my bokken.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 9, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> So.... according to you, every Kenjutsu school is a McDojo? It's not exactly useful for defending yourself in todays world.


Mider was attempting to put together a definition of McDojo but perhaps it was unintentionally simplistic. Perhaps adding a phrase such as ‘….useful in the context of the art’s time and place’ might’ve extended it’s usefulness a little!


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## Gyakuto (Jan 9, 2022)

BrendanF said:


> Worked alright for me last time someone tried to do a home invasion - chased him off with my bokken.


My teacher sometimes says that anyone can kill with a sword and without any training: it’s a 72cmish razor blade after all! I’d suggested anyone can chase off an assailant with a bokuto, without any training as it’s essentially a large club!😃


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## Unkogami (Jan 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> ... there are _many_ ‘legitimate martial arts’ that won’t help the student consistently defend themselves against an uncooperative, fully-resisting, aggressive assailant.
> 
> ...


List?


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## Gyakuto (Jan 9, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> List?


Steve Vai
Guthrie Govan
Allan Holdsworth
George Lynch
Tony MacAlpine
Vernon Reid
Tosin Abasi
Andrés Sergovia
Eric Johnson
Edward Van Halen
Warren Cuccurullo
Jan Cyrka……


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## Unkogami (Jan 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Steve Vai
> Guthrie Govan
> Allan Holdsworth
> George Lynch
> ...


You said "legitimate martial arts," not names of individuals.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 9, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> You said "legitimate martial arts," not names of individuals.


Oh! You just said ‘List?’ and I thought you required a list of things from me. I chose a list of my favourite guitarists


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## dvcochran (Jan 9, 2022)

Mider said:


> If A dojo teaches nonsense that doesn’t help a student learn to defend themselves it’s a McDojo.


Define nonsense.


----------



## Gyakuto (Jan 9, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> List?


Rather than me presenting a list and risk offending the practitioners of a particular art…a gentleman and a (retired) scholar would never do such a thing… perhaps a thought experiment that allows one to draw-up ones _own_ list is in order?

One of the better definitions of an effective combat art is ’one that consistently perform against an uncooperative, fully-resisting, aggressive opponent’ With this in mind, a good example of an uncooperative, fully-resisting, aggressive opponent might be a ‘mixed martial arts‘ competitor. Let’s make them of equal experience to the artist being tested in terms of years practising (Colin MacGregor would be an unfair tester in my opinion, but if that’s who you choose in your thought experiment, then so be it). Now, in your mind, place this MMA fighter in an octagon with the art who’s effectiveness you wish to test. Visualise the testee resplendent in their red satin silk uniform, shiny sash a-waving as they warm up and throw their punches and possibly their kicks. ‘Ding, ding’ the start bell rings…what happen…? Win or lose? Do they go on the list or not? 

There are quite a few Youtube examples of this kind of thing that might help you if you’re struggling with a potential outcome.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jan 9, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> List?


FYI, presenting such a list would constitute art bashing and would thus be against the rules of this website. Kudos to Gyakuto for refraining from specifying which arts would be on such a list in his opinion.


----------



## Gyakuto (Jan 9, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> FYI, presenting such a list would constitute art bashing and would thus be against the rules of this website. Kudos to Gyakuto for refraining from specifying which arts would be on such a list in his opinion.


And of course that’s why I didn’t…errr you know….cos I know all the rules and… the..the things and stuff🥺

No, it’s just not polite!


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## Unkogami (Jan 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Rather than me presenting a list and risk offending the practitioners of a particular art…a gentleman and a (retired) scholar would never do such a thing… ...


Maybe you shouldn't have made the comment in the first place if you are too shy to say.


----------



## Unkogami (Jan 9, 2022)

No "art" performs anything. Individuals do or do not perform successfully in a given situation.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 9, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Maybe you shouldn't have made the comment in the first place if you are too shy to say.


Too shy? Please refresh yourself of the rules of this forum.


----------



## Unkogami (Jan 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Too shy? Please refresh yourself of the rules of this forum.


I don't think the rules require passive-aggressiveness. Better not to make such comments in the first place.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 9, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> No "art" performs anything. Individuals do or do not perform successfully in a given situation.


That suggests that it is always the _practitioner_ that fails and never the combat art they are performing.


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## Unkogami (Jan 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> That suggests that it is always the _practitioner_ that fails and never the combat art they are performing.


The point being that anthropomorphizing an 'art' is irrational. _Individuals_ do or do not do.


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## bill miller (Jan 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Oh! You just said ‘List?’ and I thought you required a list of things from me. I chose a list of my favourite guitarists


Glad to see Steve Via at the top!!


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## Gyakuto (Jan 9, 2022)

bill miller said:


> Glad to see Steve Via at the top!!


Oh, my absolute favourite!


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## Flying Crane (Jan 9, 2022)

bill miller said:


> Glad to see Steve Via at the top!!


Vai is excellent, if you like that kind of playing. I’m ok with it.  

For me, nobody beats David Gilmore.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 9, 2022)

I like Vai’s lack of bluesines…and recently his tonal centre has become harder to home in on. _But_ I like Gilmour’s bluesy playing to…it’s much easier to copy!😄


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 9, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> List?


Now wait a minute, when I asked you a similar question you said something along the lines of most dojos are babysitting and belt selling, though you declined to name any particular art or dojo. Generalized comments of this nature are sure to draw some attention. It’s not that I necessarily disagree with the sentiment, but rather the brusque and abrupt delivery of the comment, which is somewhat adversarial in tone. Unless of course you are trying for that.


----------



## Unkogami (Jan 9, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Now wait a minute, when I asked you a similar question you said something along the lines of most dojos are babysitting and belt selling, though you declined to name any particular art or dojo. Generalized comments of this nature are sure to draw some attention. It’s not that I necessarily disagree with the sentiment, but rather the brusque and abrupt delivery of the comment, which is somewhat adversarial in tone. Unless of course you are trying for that.


I didn't denigrate any art or tradition. If I tell you that fast food sucks, does that mean I'm denigrating food?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 9, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I didn't denigrate any art or tradition. If I tell you that fast food sucks, does that mean I'm denigrating food?


Fair enough. I’m just ribbing you because you sound grumpy. I actually couldn’t care less if you denigrate whomever/whatever, including me.


----------



## Unkogami (Jan 9, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Fair enough. I’m just ribbing you because you sound grumpy. I actually couldn’t care less if you denigrate whomever/whatever, including me.


I must admit I am generally cantankerous.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 9, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I didn't denigrate any art or tradition. If I tell you that fast food sucks, does that mean I'm denigrating food?





Unkogami said:


> I didn't denigrate any art or tradition. If I tell you that fast food sucks, does that mean I'm denigrating food?





Unkogami said:


> I must admit I am generally cantankerous.


Takes one to know one.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 9, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> No "art" performs anything. Individuals do or do not perform successfully in a given situation.


The art (more correctly, the training system) matters.


----------



## Steve (Jan 9, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> FYI, presenting such a list would constitute art bashing and would thus be against the rules of this website. Kudos to Gyakuto for refraining from specifying which arts would be on such a list in his opinion.


Really?  I thought folks trained for all kinds of reasons. Either we endorse that or we don’t.


----------



## MrBigglesworth (Jan 9, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I remember hearing about a U.K.-based Japanese senior swordsman who applied to the Japanese government for the legal papers to challenge someone with whom he had an argument, to a duel to-the-death! He received them and the other guy avoided him thereafter!😄😆



Reminds me a little of the first school I trained in, years ago.
The dojo was in a pretty rough area, and from time to time you'd get people coming in, trying to the on the sensei.
He'd calmly turn around to the pigeon-holes where the forms lived, grab an indemnity form ("In the event of death or permanent disfigurement..." lol) and ask them to sign. Don't think he had too many takers.


----------



## Mider (Jan 10, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> Define nonsense.


Define define ?


----------



## Mider (Jan 10, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> So.... according to you, every Kenjutsu school is a McDojo? It's not exactly useful for defending yourself in todays world.


actually you could use it with other objects...are you five?

do you think a school like this isn’t a mcDojo? 




maybe you should use some common sense like an adult and stop trying to impress the teens in here


----------



## Mider (Jan 10, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I understand your sentiment, but there are _many_ ‘legitimate martial arts’ that won’t help the student consistently defend themselves against an uncooperative, fully-resisting, aggressive assailant.
> 
> I think a McDojo is one where the provenance of the techniques is deliberately misrepresented to lend the art an air of ancient superiority because all know, old things are much better than modern things 🙄😉


What legitimate art won’t help a student against an uncooperative assailant?


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 10, 2022)

Mider said:


> Define define ?


Just trying to get a sense of where you are coming from. 
I watched the chi energy video on you of your last post and yes, that is in my spoof category. However, to me this is outside the realm or definition of a McDojo for me. 
So, where is your point coming from?


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jan 10, 2022)

Mider said:


> actually you could use it with other objects...are you five?
> 
> do you think a school like this isn’t a mcDojo?
> 
> ...



Hi Mider, 

I am confused. 
You have stated that is a dojo doesn't teach self defense or things that could be used as self defense then it is useless or a McDojo .
OK

Then you state here that DD is to use common sense as the techniques could be used for self defense by translating them to another object.

So is it possible that even the worse schools be what ever definition (as you asked for people to define define) still have something to offer, such as Run before engage and physical activity and ... well anything that could be used to defend themselves. 

Just curious as the circle has closed and I am confused by the logic. 

PS: I teach FMA, and use improvised weapons, my favorite was a full tuna fish can I found in a parking lot. 
I have degrees in Computer Science and work as an engineer , with minors in Math, and Logic (Philosophy). 

So I get improvised. 
I get common sense - I design stuff all day / week / month / year / career long for people  who seem to not get it or not have it. 
I get some schools are more sport. 
I get some schools are more self defense. 

Do you teach Grappling with a knife? Because if you don't I could easily argue that it is a common weapon and people will also end up being grappled. 
Where does it end? 
Fire arms? Yes I have been trained to use one, and I appreciate clearing, bring online and firing before the target is able to engage. 

I am really curious.


----------



## BrendanF (Jan 10, 2022)

Mider said:


> do you think a school like this isn’t a mcDojo?



What makes you think it is?

Do you think 'Bullshido' and 'McDojo' mean the same thing?

FWIW that is Iida Hiroo of Daito ryu Muden Juku - a legitimate teacher of Daito ryu Aikijujutsu, the art studied and modified by Ueshiba Morihei to create Aikido.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

BrendanF said:


> What makes you think it is?
> 
> Do you think 'Bullshido' and 'McDojo' mean the same thing?
> 
> FWIW that is Iida Hiroo of Daito ryu Muden Juku - a legitimate teacher of Daito ryu Aikijujutsu, the art studied and modified by Ueshiba Morihei to create Aikido.


I’m done arguing with you, later


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Hi Mider,
> 
> I am confused.
> You have stated that is a dojo doesn't teach self defense or things that could be used as self defense then it is useless or a McDojo .
> ...


A Dojo that says they’re teaching you self defense should do that.

and yes you seem to lack common sense, it’s the running Krueger effect I think. Have a nice day


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> Just trying to get a sense of where you are coming from.
> I watched the chi energy video on you of your last post and yes, that is in my spoof category. However, to me this is outside the realm or definition of a McDojo for me.
> So, where is your point coming from?


Define coming from?


----------



## BrendanF (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I’m done arguing with you, later



Didn't realise I was, honestly.  Was just curious - hence the questions.  No worries though, later.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> Just trying to get a sense of where you are coming from.
> I watched the chi energy video on you of your last post and yes, that is in my spoof category. However, to me this is outside the realm or definition of a McDojo for me.
> So, where is your point coming from?


I’m sorry but you asked me a silly question...I’m wondering as an adult why you wouldn’t have the common sense to not know what a mcDojo is

i mean This is a discussion...but in real life when some young kid learns this nonsense or a woman looking to protect herself And finds it doesn’t work and gets hurt...I mean yeah...I’m just saying someone like you should  know better.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> Define coming from?


Define 'running Krueger'


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> Define 'running Krueger'


I’m still waiting for you to define define, I mean have you heard of a dictionary or Google?


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I’m still waiting for you to define define, I mean have you heard of a dictionary or Google?


def·i·ni·tion
_noun_


1.
a statement of the exact meaning of a word, especially in a dictionary.
"a dictionary definition of the verb"


2.
the degree of distinctness in outline of an object, image, or sound, especially of an image in a photograph or on a screen.
"the clarity and definition of pictures can be aided by using computer graphics"


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## Gyakuto (Jan 11, 2022)

View attachment 27928


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## lklawson (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> A Dojo that says they’re teaching you self defense should do that.


In what context?  European fencing with the smallsword was considered "self defense" at the time (ever wonder where the term "fence" comes from?).  19th Century bare knuckle boxing was considered "The Art of Defense" but strangely none of the old manuals have a ton to say about defending against a knife.  See where this is going?




Mider said:


> and yes you seem to lack common sense, it’s the running Krueger effect I think. Have a nice day


Running.  Yes, go on...


----------



## lklawson (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I’m sorry but you asked me a silly question...I’m wondering as an adult why you wouldn’t have the common sense to not know what a mcDojo is


So have you managed to get everyone to agree with your definition yet?  While you're at it explain the purpose of Kata.  That should be just as fun.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> A Dojo that says they’re teaching you self defense should do that.
> 
> and yes you seem to lack common sense, it’s the running Krueger effect I think. Have a nice day


Okay, and what if the dojo doesn't make that claim?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I’m sorry but you asked me a silly question...I’m wondering as an adult why you wouldn’t have the common sense to not know what a mcDojo is
> 
> i mean This is a discussion...but in real life when some young kid learns this nonsense or a woman looking to protect herself And finds it doesn’t work and gets hurt...I mean yeah...I’m just saying someone like you should  know better.


Not really a silly question. He's trying to understand your point - that's part of communication. If he responds to a misunderstanding, then his response wouldn't really add to the discussion.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> A Dojo that says they’re teaching you self defense should do that.
> 
> and yes you seem to lack common sense, it’s the running Krueger effect I think. Have a nice day


What if I decide that your school is a McDojo?  Can I call it a McDojo and badmouth it all over town?  Just because I have decided that it meets my definition?


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> What if I decide that your school is a McDojo?  Can I call it a McDojo and badmouth it all over town?  Just because I have decided that it meets my definition?


I don’t have a school...but what if you decided Bas Ruttens school was a mcDojo...is that true, would anyone listen?


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Okay, and what if the dojo doesn't make that claim?


well this discussion is about mcDojo’s so I’m giving you a definition of one.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Not really a silly question. He's trying to understand your point - that's part of communication. If he responds to a misunderstanding, then his response wouldn't really add to the discussion.


The point is what if some small female wants to learn rape prevention and the dojo is just looking for money...thus I question the sense in the question


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

lklawson said:


> So have you managed to get everyone to agree with your definition yet?  While you're at it explain the purpose of Kata.  That should be just as fun.


the Fact that you think a gym that teaches trash isn’t a mcDojo says more about you then me bro lol


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

lklawson said:


> In what context?  European fencing with the smallsword was considered "self defense" at the time (ever wonder where the term "fence" comes from?).  19th Century bare knuckle boxing was considered "The Art of Defense" but strangely none of the old manuals have a ton to say about defending against a knife.  See where this is going?
> 
> 
> 
> Running.  Yes, go on...


If you don’t know how then maybe you have more to learn and lack common sense, shrug


----------



## lklawson (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> the Fact that you think a gym that teaches trash isn’t a mcDojo says more about you then me bro lol


The fact that you think I wrote that say a ton about you.  (pst!  It's not good.)


----------



## lklawson (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> If you don’t know how then maybe you have more to learn and lack common sense, shrug


Wanna take another stab at that word salad?


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Not really a silly question. He's trying to understand your point - that's part of communication. If he responds to a misunderstanding, then his response wouldn't really add to the discussion.


I respect your opinion I just don’t agree


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> The art (more correctly, the training system) matters.





Flying Crane said:


> What if I decide that your school is a McDojo?  Can I call it a McDojo and badmouth it all over town?  Just because I have decided that it meets my definition?


As long as you don’t list it…


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I don’t have a school...but what if you decided Bas Ruttens school was a mcDojo...is that true, would anyone listen?


I don’t care about Bas Rutten.  I barely know who he is.  I was asking about you.

You trained under somebody, even if you don’t teach or run a school yourself.  Can I badmouth that school and the teacher and the students all over town, if I decide it meets my definition of McDojo?  Can I tell everyone that all the students coming out of that school (which would include you) suck?

What if you disagree with my assessment?  How do you counter my badmouthing it (if you care at all; maybe you don’t)?  Maybe your teacher wants to counter my smear campaign because I am undermining the confidence that his students have in him.  But nevertheless, I have decided it is a McDojo and I have made it my mission to tell everybody, even to the point of forcing him to close the school permanently because, you know, McDojos need to be shut down, and I have made the decision that his school is a McDojo.  

Do I have a right to do that?  Do I have the right to determine what level of quality is acceptable, or how that quality must be measured, or what training methodology is acceptable, or how other people run their schools?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I don’t have a school...but what if you decided Bas Ruttens school was a mcDojo...is that true, would anyone listen?


Huh?


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> As long as you don’t list it…


What does “list it” mean?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t care about Bas Rutten.  I barely know who he is.  I was asking about you.
> 
> You trained under somebody, even if you don’t teach or run a school yourself.  Can I badmouth that school and the teacher and the students all over town, if I decide it meets my definition of McDojo?  Can I tell everyone that all the students coming out of that school (which would include you) suck?
> 
> ...


oooh, you big meanie!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> What does “list it” mean?


Oh it was a callback to earlier comments. We arent supposed to list schools that we think are bs. Forum rules. More bad jokes from me.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> oooh, you big meanie!


Just wait ‘til I get started…


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> the Fact that you think a gym that teaches trash isn’t a mcDojo says more about you then me bro lol


Well you must know the difference, how will you know without training there or trying out someone who does?


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Oh it was a callback to earlier comments. We arent supposed to list schools that we think are bs. Forum rules. More bad jokes from me.


Ah well, I wasn’t going to list it on Martialtalk.  I was going to go to the city where the school is and plaster flyers all over town and take out a series of advertisements in the local newspapers and on the local television channels and the local Nextdoor community and Facebook and make negative comments on the school’s YouTube channel and stuff.

Because, ya know, I’ve got that toxic combination of nothing better to do with my time and an ego the size of the sun mixed with the gnawing suspicion that I ought to have moved out of my parents’ basement a couple decades ago…


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I respect your opinion I just don’t agree


It doesn’t sound to me as though you respect anyone’s opinion.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Just wait ‘til I get started…


Lol!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Ah well, I wasn’t going to list it on Martialtalk.  I was going to go to the city where the school is and plaster flyers all over town and take out a series of advertisements in the local newspapers and on the local television channels and the local Nextdoor community and Facebook and make negative comments on the school’s YouTube channel and stuff.


Why not just go in and slap your thighs and challenge the teacher?


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Why not just go in and slap your thighs and challenge the teacher?


I much prefer the passive- aggressive route.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Ah well, I wasn’t going to list it on Martialtalk.  I was going to go to the city where the school is and plaster flyers all over town and take out a series of advertisements in the local newspapers and on the local television channels and the local Nextdoor community and Facebook and make negative comments on the school’s YouTube channel and stuff.
> 
> Because, ya know, I’ve got that toxic combination of nothing better to do with my time and an ego the size of the sun mixed with the gnawing suspicion that I ought to have moved out of my parents’ basement a couple decades ago…


LMAO!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I much prefer the passive- aggressive route.


Mmm. 


Flying Crane said:


> I much prefer the passive- aggressive route.


That won’t add any YouTube videos for me to watch and learn your secrets.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> LMAO!


🙂


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Mmm.
> 
> That won’t add any YouTube videos for me to watch and learn your secrets.


Shooting spit-wads from the shadows.  That’s my style. Create a corrosive environment until I get my way.


----------



## Steve (Jan 11, 2022)

What has happened to this thread?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> What has happened to this thread?


Very good question. Sadly I have no answer


----------



## lklawson (Jan 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> What has happened to this thread?


What was it to begin with?  It starts off by making a statement about a highly charged and often disputed concept, that of taking "offense," to a word that nobody can agree on the definition in the first place.  How did we think it was going to go?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Shooting spit-wads from the shadows.  That’s my style. Create a corrosive environment until I get my way.


Oh wait, I trained in that already, got my participation trophy too.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> What has happened to this thread?


Derailed for petty squabbles and silliness.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

lklawson said:


> What was it to begin with?  It starts off by making a statement about a highly charged and often disputed concept, that of taking "offense," to a word that nobody can agree on the definition in the first place.  How did we think it was going to go?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


It gets so ridiculous sometimes. That’s when I just start joking around.


----------



## Yamabushii (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m not talking about sparring. I’m not a tough guy either, I have known some, that’s how I know I’m not one. The times I’ve seen it, it was a fight, not a competition. Never heard of a respectful dojo buster, I don’t think that’s a thing.


Not in this country it's not. You mentioned in an earlier post about it being normal in the 1930s in Canton but that was a different society and point in time altogether. In Modern China this isn't happening much or is just discouraged. For example, the Chinese MMA fighter Xu Xiaodong was challenging all types of Wushu masters around China but eventually got shut down by the government since he kept wrecking all of them. Times are different, and yes I know that was because he was specifically putting China's national martial arts treasure to shame, but it's still not being allowed.

Nowadays with all the laws that are common place in every civilized nation, these things are being handled in tournaments or organized matches. The risk of just busting into someone's place of training can easily be met with fines, bad rep/publicity, and/or jail time.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Yamabushii said:


> Not in this country it's not. You mentioned in an earlier post about it being normal in the 1930s in Canton but that was a different society and point in time altogether. In Modern China this isn't happening much or is just discouraged. For example, the Chinese MMA fighter Xu Xiaodong was challenging all types of Wushu masters around China but eventually got shut down by the government since he kept wrecking all of them. Times are different, and yes I know that was because he was specifically putting China's national martial arts treasure to shame, but it's still not being allowed.
> 
> Nowadays with all the laws that are common place in every civilized nation, these things are being handled in tournaments or organized matches. The risk of just busting into someone's place of training can easily be met with fines, bad rep/publicity, and/or jail time.


It still happens here. The stories I heard from Sifu Woo who lived in 1930s Canton often involved swords and bloodshed on a level that would never happen today. I only used that as an example.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Yamabushii said:


> Not in this country it's not. You mentioned in an earlier post about it being normal in the 1930s in Canton but that was a different society and point in time altogether. In Modern China this isn't happening much or is just discouraged. For example, the Chinese MMA fighter Xu Xiaodong was challenging all types of Wushu masters around China but eventually got shut down by the government since he kept wrecking all of them. Times are different, and yes I know that was because he was specifically putting China's national martial arts treasure to shame, but it's still not being allowed.
> 
> Nowadays with all the laws that are common place in every civilized nation, these things are being handled in tournaments or organized matches. The risk of just busting into someone's place of training can easily be met with fines, bad rep/publicity, and/or jail time.


I don’t think Xu Xiaodong qualifies as a respectful dojo buster. Anyone who does this doesn’t give a hoot about their bad rep. To be clear, I don’t have any sympathy for charlatans who get trounced.


----------



## Steve (Jan 11, 2022)

lklawson said:


> What was it to begin with?  It starts off by making a statement about a highly charged and often disputed concept, that of taking "offense," to a word that nobody can agree on the definition in the first place.  How did we think it was going to go?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I think these threads tend to go where folks lead them.  If you don't see a turn in the thread over the last few pages, that's cool.  I do.


----------



## lklawson (Jan 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think these threads tend to go where folks lead them.  If you don't see a turn in the thread over the last few pages, that's cool.  I do.


I'm just saying that I expected it to be a crap-show from the get-go and have just been watching it for entertainment value.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> It doesn’t sound to me as though you respect anyone’s opinion.


I don’t have to respect all opinions 🤷‍♂️

I notice that you say I have to respect your opinion yet you don’t respect mine...whatever I guess 🤪😜


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well you must know the difference, how will you know without training there or trying out someone who does?


Idk, looking at their website, reviews, etc. teachers credentials


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Huh?


You said what if you said my school was a mcDojo...I don’t have one lol

i mean if a school is real it speaks for itself, I used Bas Rutten gym as an example....he has one in California


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t care about Bas Rutten.  I barely know who he is.  I was asking about you.
> 
> You trained under somebody, even if you don’t teach or run a school yourself.  Can I badmouth that school and the teacher and the students all over town, if I decide it meets my definition of McDojo?  Can I tell everyone that all the students coming out of that school (which would include you) suck?
> 
> ...


Lol im not surprised

  i Gave you a response lol...I’m sorry I’m still laughing at your response.

I just said if a school is legit why would anyone care about your bad mouthing, who are you? Do you think if you bad mouthed...oh Bas Rutten school anyone would care?

lol...if a school is bad you have the right to bad mouth it, that’s life, if I have food at a restaurant and find rats should I not bad mouth it?


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> Lol im not surprised
> 
> i Gave you a response lol...I’m sorry I’m still laughing at your response.
> 
> ...


Finding rats in a restaurant is not the same as deciding that you think a school is teaching poorly, based on your own criteria.  A better comparison would be if you simply decided you didn’t like the food, and decided to try and get the restaurant shut down, without any health or safety hazards in the mix.  Simply because you didn’t like the meal.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Finding rats in a restaurant is not the same as deciding that you think a school is teaching poorly, based on your own criteria.  A better comparison would be if you simply decided you didn’t like the food, and decided to try and get the restaurant shut down, without any health or safety hazards in the mix.  Simply because you didn’t like the meal.


So can I go around town saying the foods greasy and tastes bad? If that’s my opinion it’s still accurate is it not?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> So can I go around town saying the foods greasy and tastes bad? If that’s my opinion it’s still accurate is it not?


Not necessarily. It's your opinion. That does not mean it's accurate.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not necessarily. It's your opinion. That does not mean it's accurate.


It’s accurate to me though, so it is accurate.

anyway my question was can I go around saying the foods bad?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> It’s accurate to me though, so it is accurate.


Maybe. Maybe not. Apparently this is confusing to you? Opinions are subjective. Facts are objective.


Mider said:


> anyway my question was can I go around saying the foods bad?


You can... you may also be sued for slander or libel by someone who knows the difference between opinion and fact.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Maybe. Maybe not. Apparently this is confusing to you? Opinions are subjective. Facts are objective.
> 
> You can... you may also be sued for slander or libel by someone who knows the difference between opinion and fact.


Not really, you can only be sued if you lied and there are protections for reviews...so...no.

You are free to make almost any opinion in Texas


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> So can I go around town saying the foods greasy and tastes bad? If that’s my opinion it’s still accurate is it not?


You have the right to express your opinion.  Yes, you do.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> You have the right to express your opinion.  Yes, you do.


There you go, I can do the same for a dojo


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> There you go, I can do the same for a dojo


Of course you can.  But if you do it in a way that becomes an aggressive and systematic attempt to get the school to close down, which really is what the accusation of “McDojo” is all about (I would need to re-read the entire thread to see if you or someone else has said it in this instance, but there is often someone in the discussion who suggests that “something” ought to be done about these McDojos [bluster bluster bluster]…), then it rises to another level of douchebaggery and moves in the direction of harassment and slander and potential legal troubles.  Everyone has the right to express an opinion.  But you do not have the right to run someone out of business or out of town, just because you don’t like how they do things. 

Which brings it all kind of full circle in that how does one define “McDojo” that everyone can agree on, and individual schools can be judged upon?  It can’t be done.  There is no objective way to determine it, it is too full of opinion.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I don’t have to respect all opinions 🤷‍♂️
> 
> I notice that you say I have to respect your opinion yet you don’t respect mine...whatever I guess 🤪😜


Where did I say you have to respect my opinion? I’m nobody.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I don’t have to respect all opinions 🤷‍♂️
> 
> I notice that you say I have to respect your opinion yet you don’t respect mine...whatever I guess 🤪😜


Are you okay?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> Idk, looking at their website, reviews, etc. teachers credentials


Oh I see. So the brochure is how you tell. What if it’s CMA? The teacher may not advertise his”credentials”. He may not even have a brochure for your perusal and judgement. He may not give the time of day to people who think they know what they clearly don’t. Websites and Yelp are now the measure of a teacher or school? I can barely see you in the that hole you are digging.


----------



## Steve (Jan 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not necessarily. It's your opinion. That does not mean it's accurate.


Whoa, hold on.  Not quite true.  It really depends upon whether the statements are supported by some objective, independently observed standards.  For example, it should be pretty easy to determine whether food is greasy or not.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> There you go, I can do the same for a dojo


Yes you certainly can, even if you know absolutely nothing about running a school or teaching martial arts. I welcome you to it. You will be in fine company.


----------



## Steve (Jan 11, 2022)

Okay, here's a question.  Is anyone interested in having a discussion, or are folks just having a laugh and engaging in a little light trolling?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> It’s accurate to me though, so it is accurate.
> 
> anyway my question was can I go around saying the foods bad?


Not if all you did was read the reviews and the brochure and the chefs credentials. You have to go in and actually get a taste.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Not if all you did was read the reviews and the brochure and the chefs credentials. You have to go in and actually get a taste.


If I do that then I get a sense of the food sane with a gym or dojo


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> Okay, here's a question.  Is anyone interested in having a discussion, or are folks just having a laugh and engaging in a little light trolling?


Both.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> If I do that then I get a sense of the food sane with a gym or dojo


Sure, IF you go in. I kinda get a sense for what you are serving up. I don’t need a brochure.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yes you certainly can, even if you know absolutely nothing about running a school or teaching martial arts. I welcome you to it. You will be in fine company.


Do I have to know how to run a school? That’s like saying I need to be a teacher, dr, or anything to give my opinion.

we Once had a dr who ignored a member of family, it almost resulted in suicide, I think I’m pretty safe in saying he’s a crap dr


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Sure, IF you go in. I kinda get a sense for what you are serving up. I don’t need a brochure.


Why would I go in if it has 80 percent bad reviews ?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> Do I have to know how to run a school? That’s like saying I need to be a teacher, dr, or anything to give my opinion.
> 
> we Once had a dr who ignored a member of family, it almost resulted in suicide, I think I’m pretty safe in saying he’s a crap dr


Again, say whatever you like. Would you be willing to list the schools you have an opinion of and why?


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Oh I see. So the brochure is how you tell. What if it’s CMA? The teacher may not advertise his”credentials”. He may not even have a brochure for your perusal and judgement. He may not give the time of day to people who think they know what they clearly don’t. Websites and Yelp are now the measure of a teacher or school? I can barely see you in the that hole you are digging.


I’m digging a hole, lol , is this where your opinion is better then mine but you were crying about my opinion being mean earlier?

anyway most teachers do post credentials on the website.

if someone had no credentials and said he was a lawyer would you pay him? Or can he say he doesn’t need to display his diploma etc


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Are you okay?


I am yes I just found that funny.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> Why would I go in if it has 80 percent bad reviews ?


Because more than 80% of reviews are uninformed opinion, that’s my uninformed opinion.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

I think I’m


Wing Woo Gar said:


> Because more than 80% of reviews are uninformed opinion, that’s my uninformed opinion.


Right because all those people posted fake reviews lol

i mean I know for a fact people post bad reviews but usually the review page starts getting involved

so again...if I’m told by 20 people a restaurant has rodents why should I go?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I’m digging a hole, lol , is this where your opinion is better then mine but you were crying about my opinion being mean earlier?
> 
> anyway most teachers do post credentials on the website.
> 
> if someone had no credentials and said he was a lawyer would you pay him? Or can he say he doesn’t need to display his diploma etc


Nobody is crying. I’m trying to help you see that you might be missing something. I honestly don’t care who you disparage, including me. You may have to train a little with someone to see if they are the right person to teach you. Don’t dismiss a school until you go inside and give it a chance. Maybe, just maybe, you will find a gem.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I am yes I just found that funny.


Thank you.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I’m digging a hole, lol , is this where your opinion is better then mine but you were crying about my opinion being mean earlier?
> 
> anyway most teachers do post credentials on the website.
> 
> if someone had no credentials and said he was a lawyer would you pay him? Or can he say he doesn’t need to display his diploma etc


My opinion means nothing. Same as yours. That’s the point. I am curious how you came to your conclusions, because hey at this point in the convo  why not? You must have had some bad experience?


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> My opinion means nothing. Same as yours. That’s the point. I am curious how you came to your conclusions, because hey at this point in the convo  why not? You must have had some bad experience?


Then why are we having a discussion?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> Do I have to know how to run a school? That’s like saying I need to be a teacher, dr, or anything to give my opinion.
> 
> we Once had a dr who ignored a member of family, it almost resulted in suicide, I think I’m pretty safe in saying he’s a crap dr


Yes as a matter of fact, the Dr. typically disregards opinions from laypeople for good reason. Your opinion will likewise hold little weight when it comes to legal affairs, and may well land you in hot water if offered up as equal to a lawyer.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Nobody is crying. I’m trying to help you see that you might be missing something. I honestly don’t care who you disparage, including me. You may have to train a little with someone to see if they are the right person to teach you. Don’t dismiss a school until you go inside and give it a chance. Maybe, just maybe, you will find a gem.


I don’t think that was my point as I didn’t single any school out,  were discussing if it was ok to call a dojo a McDojo


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> Then why are we having a discussion?


Well as I said, I’m interested in why you think this way. I don’t know you so I ask.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yes as a matter of fact, the Dr. typically disregards opinions from laypeople for good reason. Your opinion will likewise hold little weight when it comes to legal affairs, and may well land you in hot water if offered up as equal to a lawyer.


an opinion isn’t the same as trying to act as a licensed lawyer and I’ve been right over a  dr more then once when it came to diagnosis 

it wasn’t because they weren’t smart, it was because they didn’t do the test to actually confirm the truth...a specialist confirmed it

would I say the multiple doctors were bad? No but I’d still say my ex dr was bad as his negligence almost caused a death...so you’re wrong again, I mean if my opinion does t matter in the medical world how could I file complaints or a lawsuit


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well as I said, I’m interested in why you think this way. I don’t know you so I ask.


Think what way? This discussion is going everywhere


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I don’t think that was my point as I didn’t single any school out,  were discussing if it was ok to call a dojo a McDojo


You clearly do think it’s ok. Just to reiterate, I don’t care a lick who you insult, slander, defame, or call a mcdojo. I AM curious WHY people do or don’t.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> an opinion isn’t the same as trying to act as a licensed lawyer and I’ve been right over a  dr more then once when it came to diagnosis
> 
> it wasn’t because they weren’t smart, it was because they didn’t do the test to actually confirm the truth...a specialist confirmed it
> 
> would I say the multiple doctors were bad? No but I’d still say my ex dr was bad as his negligence almost caused a death...so you’re wrong again, I mean if my opinion does t matter in the medical world how could I file complaints or a lawsuit


Really? I think we might be done here. Your complaints or lawsuit must contain substance, not opinion, to be valid in a court.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Because more than 80% of reviews are uninformed opinion, that’s my uninformed opinion.


You realize this was a joke right?


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> A Dojo that says they’re teaching you self defense should do that.
> 
> and yes you seem to lack common sense, it’s the running Krueger effect I think. Have a nice day



I am not afraid of Freddy.
So no running hear. 

As to common sense, yep I engaged with a member,  ... well they say don't engage with Pigs and Engineers as they enjoy wallowing in the mud or details. 

Not calling anyone anything but myself an engineer.

Also,
I am not you Friend , Pal,
I am not your Pal, Buddy,
I am not your Buddy, Friend 
(* Intentionally not quoted correctly to avoid lawsuits  *)

And you sir should have a nice day


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Really? I think we might be done here. Your complaints or lawsuit must contain substance, not opinion, to be valid in a court.


Well duh...who said they didn’t ?


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You clearly do think it’s ok. Just to reiterate, I don’t care a lick who you insult, slander, defame, or call a mcdojo. I AM curious WHY people do or don’t.


Who did I defame, name a dojo


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You clearly do think it’s ok. Just to reiterate, I don’t care a lick who you insult, slander, defame, or call a mcdojo. I AM curious WHY people do or don’t.


Come on man speak up, name a dojo or any business I defamed.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> Come on man speak up, name a dojo or any business I defamed.



Answer any of the questions posed to you, and maybe people will reply in kind. 

Have a nice day


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> Whoa, hold on.  Not quite true.  It really depends upon whether the statements are supported by some objective, independently observed standards.  For example, it should be pretty easy to determine whether food is greasy or not.


The context is that greasy is a bad thing. And that is a matter of taste. Some people like lean meat. Some like it heavily marbled.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> The context is that greasy is a bad thing. And that is a matter of taste. Some people like lean meat. Some like it heavily marbled.


Marbled always. Ribeye over filet any day. That’s my opinion which we can agree is devoid of substance.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> Well duh...who said they didn’t ?
> 
> 
> Mider said:
> ...


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Ok now reread it again, out loud.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok now reread it again, out loud.


Please name someone I defamed as you used those words


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> Please name someone I defamed as you used those words


Never did I say you did. I said I don’t care who you defame. Reading is fundamental. Post the quote.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Never did I say you did. I said I don’t care who you defame. Reading is fundamental. Post the quote.


I did post it, you said you don’t care who I defame etc...ok give an example of one dojo I defamed


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## dvcochran (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Marbled always. Ribeye over filet any day. That’s my opinion which we can agree is devoid of substance.


A true filet, while tender, is void of a lot of flavor to me.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> A true filet, while tender, is void of a lot of flavor to me.


I agree. Much like the last few hours of this thread.


----------



## Mider (Jan 11, 2022)

This is pretty pointless

if I offended anyone, I’m sorry


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I did post it, you said you don’t care who I defame etc...ok give an example of one dojo I defamed


You have reliably demonstrated your inability to discuss in a cogent manner.  I am really not interested in continuing this discussion with you today. The lack of marbling in your responses, while tender, is rather flavorless.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> This is pretty pointless
> 
> if I offended anyone, I’m sorry


I’m not offended. Rather perplexed.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> I don’t have to respect all opinions 🤷‍♂️
> 
> I notice that you say I have to respect your opinion yet you don’t respect mine...whatever I guess 🤪😜


I’m not at all sure where you read that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2022)

Mider said:


> Idk, looking at their website, reviews, etc. teachers credentials


Most credentials in MA mean little unless you are familiar with the art, organization, and instructors involved.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> Whoa, hold on.  Not quite true.  It really depends upon whether the statements are supported by some objective, independently observed standards.  For example, it should be pretty easy to determine whether food is greasy or not.


Whether that’s bad, though, is subjective. There’s a place in my hometown known for being greasy. People come from other states to go there.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Whether that’s bad, though, is subjective. There’s a place in my hometown known for being greasy. People come from other states to go there.


Can you say "Heart Attack Grill"? 




Or the Big Texan?




These are not things I would choose to eat.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Can you say "Heart Attack Grill"?
> View attachment 27932
> Or the Big Texan?
> View attachment 27931
> ...


Until 2 years ago, I still went back every year to catch up with college friends, and eat at The Beacon.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jan 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> Whoa, hold on.  Not quite true.  It really depends upon whether the statements are supported by some objective, independently observed standards.  For example, it should be pretty easy to determine whether food is greasy or not.



Steve, 

As an engineer I see and understand your point. 
I have Gilbert's which is a genetic Liver disorder. To most people it is no big deal for me it is more so. 

I can eat white meat chicken or Turkey, but I cannot have it with the skin or even eat Dark meat without feeling discomfort. 
So to some a baked chicken leg would not be greasy, and to me it is.  

Another example is vehicle emissions. a vehicle that was considered Low Emissions for 2000, probably today would not even be considered to pass any emission test. So it is subjective to the time place and location and the environment, on if the vehicle meets low emissions. 
That being said, the 2000 vehicle would or should still meet the emissions it was designed for. So low or greasy are too vague a definition.  
One would have to quantify the exact CO, CO2, NO, NO2, and non Methane, and particulates to measure. 

So I see your point as I stated. Just in general discussion most (very few) will discuss in details the level of details required for an absolute such as that. 
I dislike this post , so if you feel bad about it I understand. I don't mean it as a negative. Just explaining my subjective understanding of this topic. 
My Apologies.


----------



## Steve (Jan 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Because more than 80% of reviews are uninformed opinion, that’s my uninformed opinion.


60% of the time, it works every time.


Rich Parsons said:


> Steve,
> 
> As an engineer I see and understand your point.
> I have Gilbert's which is a genetic Liver disorder. To most people it is no big deal for me it is more so.
> ...


thanks for this. Very true.  It all has to do with the standards in place.  You can use terms like “taste bad” and “greasy” and they might be subjective.  But they may not be.  If you take some time (as you did) to define the terms in objective, measurable ways, they are no longer subjective.  

In a vain attempt to get this thread back on track, that is the point I was trying to make.   I think folks have gotten too carried away .


----------



## Steve (Jan 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Whether that’s bad, though, is subjective. There’s a place in my hometown known for being greasy. People come from other states to go there.


Okay.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Can you say "Heart Attack Grill"?
> View attachment 27932
> Or the Big Texan?
> View attachment 27931
> ...


Oooh I would! Though I doubt I could complete the challenge.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> 60% of the time, it works every time.
> 
> thanks for this. Very true.  It all has to do with the standards in place.  You can use terms like “taste bad” and “greasy” and they might be subjective.  But they may not be.  If you take some time (as you did) to define the terms in objective, measurable ways, they are no longer subjective.
> 
> In a vain attempt to get this thread back on track, that is the point I was trying to make.   I think folks have gotten too carried away .


Guilty as charged.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jan 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> What has happened to this thread?


I have no idea, but I have a feeling it was the Mcdojos! It was the Mcdojos that did it!!!


----------



## lklawson (Jan 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> Whoa, hold on.  Not quite true.  It really depends upon whether the statements are supported by some objective, independently observed standards.  For example, it should be pretty easy to determine whether food is greasy or not.


Nope.  What is or is not 'greasy' is a very subjective thing based on personal preferences and, quite often, cultural norms, or even the intention of the food.  Is pemican 'greasy'?  It's typically made with something like 50% fat and grease.  Are french fries (or deep fried anything) 'greasy'?  They literally get a jacuzzi is oil or grease.  Is Sawmill Gravy 'greasy'?  Depending on the recipe it can have 20% or more bacon grease.

You get the idea.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Jan 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> Okay, here's a question.  Is anyone interested in having a discussion, or are folks just having a laugh and engaging in a little light trolling?


About what a McDojo is?  It's too vague and subjective.  There will never be an accepted definition that everyone will be happy with.  About being "offended?"  That's a sure way to get people to choose sides and draw lines; it's such a divisive (and often socially & politically charged) subject.

About what is or is not libel or slander?  Sure.  It tends to be a much shorter discussion, however.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Jan 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Not if all you did was read the reviews and the brochure and the chefs credentials. You have to go in and actually get a taste.


And even then it's worthless.  If a person person judges a TexMex restaurant by Polish Deli standards, well, it's going to be judged as "bad."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Jan 12, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> The context is that greasy is a bad thing. And that is a matter of taste. Some people like lean meat. Some like it heavily marbled.


_Jack Sprat could eat no fat.
His wife could eat no lean.
And so between them both, you see,
They licked the platter clean
Jack ate all the lean,
Joan ate all the fat.
The bone they picked it clean,
Then gave it to the cat._

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Mider (Jan 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m not offended. Rather perplexed.


I’m perplexed by you too...by your logic I can’t have an opinion on anything that I have no experience on, I mean...you do know jury’s are filled by people who are not lawyers right?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 13, 2022)

Mider said:


> I’m perplexed by you too...by your logic I can’t have an opinion on anything that I have no experience on, I mean...you do know jury’s are filled by people who are not lawyers right?


I’m not picking on you. I think we may just have different styles of communication. I respect whatever your opinion is, and your right to it.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jan 13, 2022)

Mider said:


> I’m perplexed by you too...by your logic I can’t have an opinion on anything that I have no experience on, I mean...you do know jury’s are filled by people who are not lawyers right?



I have never made a jury as the defense almost always uses one of their dismissals when they hear I am an Engineer. 

So yes, Jury's are made up of the least educated and most likely to be persuaded by emotion. 
Not always, and given a large enough sample size hopefully they can get one critical thinking person on the jury . 

This is the second time you have mentioned Legal type actions. Are you a lawyer or a medical doctor or both? 

And yes I have set precedence with CARB and legal legislations. 
I have argued with lawyers and judges, with data. 

Just curious as to the relevance, as is it your frame of reference or something else. 
Have a nice day.


----------



## lklawson (Jan 13, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> I have never made a jury as the defense almost always uses one of their dismissals when they hear I am an Engineer.


At Voir Dire:
Lawyers: So tell us about yourself:
Me: I'm a Christian who attends every week, a high-level IT professional working for the Department of Defense, a Martial Arts and Firearms expert with ratings and certifications, and I have friends who are cops.
Lawyers: Dismissed.

Every time.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 13, 2022)

lklawson said:


> At Voir Dire:
> Lawyers: So tell us about yourself:
> Me: I'm a Christian who attends every week, a high-level IT professional working for the Department of Defense, a Martial Arts and Firearms expert with ratings and certifications, and I have friends who are cops.
> Lawyers: Dismissed.
> ...


This is very similar to what happens whenever I get a jury summons.


----------



## lklawson (Jan 13, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is very similar to what happens whenever I get a jury summons.


At first I used to wonder what would happen to my job and the rest if I were ever Seated.  Now I know not to give it a second thought.  I lose a day while they figure out that they want to dismiss me because I probably have expertise, experience, or a social relationship which touches on the area that they are trying.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jan 13, 2022)

lklawson said:


> At Voir Dire:
> Lawyers: So tell us about yourself:
> Me: I'm a Christian who attends every week, a high-level IT professional working for the Department of Defense, a Martial Arts and Firearms expert with ratings and certifications, and I have friends who are cops.
> Lawyers: Dismissed.
> ...



Similar:
I am an engineer with BS and MS in Comp Sci, with minors in Math, Chem, and Phil, I have worked for Military Contractors and Vehicle OEMS and some contract in between. I teach Martial Arts, and I have the appropriate legal license to carry (When Appropriate or active - as times when I did not have one yet). I have been married and divorced with no kids. 
Dismissed.


----------



## Steve (Jan 13, 2022)

Oh boy.  The "I'm too smart to be on a jury" thing again.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jan 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> Oh boy.  The "I'm too smart to be on a jury" thing again.



Steve ,

I am not too smart.
I know my limitations.
I know some. -- I usually say I know nothing and understand less. 

My points, was that Mider was indirectly using the Appeal to authority argument and I was trying to show that it falls apart as there are other authorities as well.

For the legal people including LEOs here is the question I always ask them when I get the appeal to authority:
All states recognize other states license plates. 
One stat does not recognize the Manufacturing Plate of one other state.
Can you provide these two states without looking it up?

Unless you work in my field and been in said vehicles in both states it is really difficult to expect anyone to know this.

The Answer: Arizona does not recognize Michigan Manufacturer License Plates. They want to get their cut of the license plate monies for testing. Depending upon the officer, one gets a warning ticket that has to be resolved in 24-72 hours, by showing the Arizona Manufacturing License plate. Unless you can prove with receipts that you spent the previous night in a different state and have reservations in a another state the next night.

So, Not too smart.
Just subtly  calling out the person using the appeal to authority argument. 

PS: 

🤮🤮🤮🤮


----------



## lklawson (Jan 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> Oh boy.  The "I'm too smart to be on a jury" thing again.


Bah.

All I know is that after they hear my experience, I'm dismissed and whether or not you roll your eyes or post a puke smiley, it's what reliably happens every time.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 13, 2022)

How are you guys still following this thread 20 pages in? I just skimmed it and I can't pay attention to the pointless back and forth. Not even sure what everyone's specific arguments are at this point.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jan 13, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> How are you guys still following this thread 20 pages in? I just skimmed it and I can't pay attention to the pointless back and forth. Not even sure what everyone's specific arguments are at this point.



To be honest, It seems like it could be the last word syndrome, no one wants to let it go because it went off the rails and if they post last then it means that they are the one who got the last word, and therefor the one who was correct.


----------



## Steve (Jan 13, 2022)

Regarding juries, I've never seen anything to support an education bias in actual jury composition, and what evidence I've seen instead points to the opposite.  There does seem to be plenty of evidence of racial bias. 

Now, to be clear, there is probably some reason you are summarily screened out during voire dire.  Statistically, it probably has more to do with your race than your education level.  That's all. 

That said, I think it's always interesting insight when people share the stories they tell about themselves.  Personally, I was dismissed from a jury because I'm so damned good looking.  They took one look at me and thought I'd be too distracting.  It's common knowledge that lawyers don't like to put people on the jury that are better looking than themselves.


----------



## Steve (Jan 13, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> To be honest, It seems like it could be the last word syndrome, no one wants to let it go because it went off the rails and if they post last then it means that they are the one who got the last word, and therefor the one who was correct.


No it's not.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jan 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> Regarding juries, I've never seen anything to support an education bias in actual jury composition, and what evidence I've seen instead points to the opposite.  There does seem to be plenty of evidence of racial bias.
> 
> Now, to be clear, there is probably some reason you are summarily screened out during voire dire.  Statistically, it probably has more to do with your race than your education level.  That's all.
> 
> That said, I think it's always interesting insight when people share the stories they tell about themselves.  Personally, I was dismissed from a jury because I'm so damned good looking.  They took one look at me and thought I'd be too distracting.


I've been to a couple of medico-legal seminars, and the lawyers who spoke stated bluntly that one of their goals in jury selection is to find people who know as little as possible about the actual subject matter. Because they can be more easily swayed by arguments an expert on the subject would laugh at.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jan 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> Regarding juries, I've never seen anything to support an education bias in actual jury composition, and what evidence I've seen instead points to the opposite.  There does seem to be plenty of evidence of racial bias.
> 
> Now, to be clear, there is probably some reason you are summarily screened out during voire dire.  Statistically, it probably has more to do with your race than your education level.  That's all.
> 
> That said, I think it's always interesting insight when people share the stories they tell about themselves.  Personally, I was dismissed from a jury because I'm so damned good looking.  They took one look at me and thought I'd be too distracting.



Steve,

Twice Defense attorneys did not let me finish once I was half way through Engineer. 
One time a Judge covering for another judge who had a family emergency,  asked, and with the number of police, doctors, nurses, and engineers, he went back and told everyone in the court room to consider settling or they would begin jury selection.
None of the Defense attorneys saw me for race or size. 

There are other situations that fit in between. 

I was a witness for an accident where someone died. 
I testified for the prosecution. 
And before the defense could go, the Judge continued to ask me questions to get details of the intersections and timed lights and such. 
The Defense then asked me more questions. He even commented that for a Prosecution witness for Man-Slaughter , I was sure helping his case. I smiled and turned to the judge and asked if I could reply, he smiled and yes. 
I told him, I was presenting the data as I saw it, and knew it to be for visibility and such. 

The Widow, understood it was an accident. 
The prosecution asked for conviction. 
The Defense attorney and client had done judge and no jury. 
He had spent months in jail as he could not afford the bail. His ex-wife ( as they divorced while he was in jail  for legal reasons ) was trying to keep the house and their one vehicle left going. 

The judge, convicted with time served, and released that day. 

So my experience is not the some total the world or USA or Michigan or even my county, it is that the evidence was not about being White, or Non White, it was about being an engineer. 

Good or bad that was my experience.


----------



## lklawson (Jan 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> Regarding juries, I've never seen anything to support an education bias in actual jury composition, and what evidence I've seen instead points to the opposite.  There does seem to be plenty of evidence of racial bias.
> 
> Now, to be clear, there is probably some reason you are summarily screened out during voire dire.  Statistically, it probably has more to do with your race than your education level.  That's all.
> 
> That said, I think it's always interesting insight when people share the stories they tell about themselves.  Personally, I was dismissed from a jury because I'm so damned good looking.  They took one look at me and thought I'd be too distracting.  It's common knowledge that lawyers don't like to put people on the jury that are better looking than themselves.


Well, like I wrote, I figured it was because I probably have expertise, experience, or a social relationship which touches on the area that they are trying.  I.E.: "I'm a Christian who attends every week, a high-level IT professional working for the Department of Defense, a Martial Arts and Firearms expert with ratings and certifications, and I have friends who are cops."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Steve (Jan 13, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I've been to a couple of medico-legal seminars, and the lawyers who spoke stated bluntly that one of their goals in jury selection is to find people who know as little as possible about the actual subject matter. Because they can be more easily swayed by arguments an expert on the subject would laugh at.


Cool, but actual jury composition statistics don't seem to bear that out.  Maybe they just aren't very good at telling the difference between people who are well educated and people who aren't.  I don't know.

Edit:  To be somewhat serious here, I think there's a difference between selecting (or trying to select) jurors who are sympathetic to your arguments, and people who are "educated" or "ignorant" or "easily swayed."  As I said earlier, those sound more like little lies we tell ourselves.  

But hey, if you believe it, nothing I say will change your mind.


----------



## Steve (Jan 13, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Well, like I wrote, I figured it was because I probably have expertise, experience, or a social relationship which touches on the area that they are trying.  I.E.: "I'm a Christian who attends every week, a high-level IT professional working for the Department of Defense, a Martial Arts and Firearms expert with ratings and certifications, and I have friends who are cops."
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Could be you're just too good looking.  I know that's a thing from personal experience.  I also had a lawyer tell me one time directly that I am one handsome SOB, so it has to be true.


----------



## lklawson (Jan 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> Could be you're just too good looking.  I know that's a thing from personal experience.  I also had a lawyer tell me one time directly that I am one handsome SOB, so it has to be true.


That's always a possibility.  I've been told that I have exactly the same hairstyle as Bruce Willis.


----------



## Steve (Jan 13, 2022)

lklawson said:


> That's always a possibility.  I've been told that I have exactly the same hairstyle as Bruce Willis.


Just out of curiosity, are we talking Bruce Willis





Or Bruce Willis?


----------



## lklawson (Jan 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> Just out of curiosity, are we talking Bruce Willis
> View attachment 27936
> 
> Or Bruce Willis?
> ...


Bruce Willis




Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## _Simon_ (Jan 14, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> To be honest, It seems like it could be the last word syndrome, no one wants to let it go because it went off the rails and if they post last then it means that they are the one who got the last word, and therefor the one who was correct.


Surely not!


----------



## Mider (Jan 14, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I've been to a couple of medico-legal seminars, and the lawyers who spoke stated bluntly that one of their goals in jury selection is to find people who know as little as possible about the actual subject matter. Because they can be more easily swayed by arguments an expert on the subject would laugh at.


Yup, that’s why I don’t understand the argument, well you don’t run a school so you can’t criticize it, you aren’t a dr you can’t criticize a dr.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jan 14, 2022)

Mider said:


> Yup, that’s why I don’t understand the argument, well you don’t run a school so you can’t criticize it, you aren’t a dr you can’t criticize a dr.


 What ?!? 
I am not getting your point. 

 PS: Any idea on the previous questions you might decide to review and post an answer?


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 27, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> My definition of McDojo's would need this guy in the front of the Dojo as the Grandmaster


Some of the people on this forum no doubt know about as much about the martial arts as Ronald McDonald, so they could be grandmasters of the mcdojos that meet your definition.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 27, 2022)

Mider said:


> If A dojo teaches nonsense that doesn’t help a student learn to defend themselves it’s a McDojo.


Well that would be none of the dojos that I've trained at regularly.


----------



## GojuTommy (Dec 27, 2022)

PhotonGuy said:


> Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners. Im saying this because I've experienced some of that on this forum myself.


That’s extremely closed minded.
If you’re dojo is a mcdojo why is it offensive to call what it is?
Getting offended because you invested time and money into it is just an expression of a fragile ego.

I hate it but the dojo I came up in was a borderline mcdojo, and by the time I came back from the navy it was a full blow. Mcdojo.
I invested a helluva lot of emotional energy, time, and my parents’ money.

It takes a mature person to realize they’ve been duped. Whether the person duping you was doing it on purpose or not is kinda irrelevant.


----------



## GojuTommy (Dec 27, 2022)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well that would be none of the dojos that I've trained at regularly.


Just curious as to what makes you so confident about that?


----------



## GojuTommy (Dec 27, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> My daughter's first MA school was a TKD school that I labeled a McDojos. It had lots of students and it was one of several in a chain. But the one my daughter was in was run by the founder. We were there a year, contract I did not want, and early on I labeled it as such. I took my daughter to a Saturday function there, it was a cookout, demo and other things like a bouncy house (she was in elementary school at the time). I looked around at all the kids there, after the demo, that were in this school and the physical fitness levels (great shape) of the older (highschool) kids there and it hit me.
> 
> Is this the TKD that I first started training in 1976? .... No
> But it was serving a purpose, yes the guy was making scads of money, yes he stopped talking to me early on when he found out I trained with Jae Hun Kim in Boston. Was it what I would call TKD? No. But all these kids had something positive in their life that was in place of all sorts of trouble they could have gotten into in the first place. Where they all great martial artists? No. But surprisingly a few were pretty darn good.
> ...


For schools like that for me the dividing line of mcdojoism comes down to honesty about the benefits of training in that school.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 28, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> That’s extremely closed minded.
> If you’re dojo is a mcdojo why is it offensive to call what it is?
> Getting offended because you invested time and money into it is just an expression of a fragile ego.


Because the dojo I went to was not a McDojo, even though some of the people on this forum called it such, for a very silly reason. 


GojuTommy said:


> I hate it but the dojo I came up in was a borderline mcdojo, and by the time I came back from the navy it was a full blow. Mcdojo.
> I invested a helluva lot of emotional energy, time, and my parents’ money.


Where was your instructor from? Was he from the orient?


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 28, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Just curious as to what makes you so confident about that?


Because I do research before I sign up at a dojo and that includes watching classes and seeing how the students perform. Having been in the martial arts for most of my life I know a few things about what to look for and about how to do such research.


----------



## GojuTommy (Dec 28, 2022)

PhotonGuy said:


> Because the dojo I went to was not a McDojo, even though some of the people on this forum called it such, for a very silly reason.
> 
> Where was your instructor from? Was he from the orient?


What makes you so sure it’s not a mcdojo? Why would people call it a mcdojo otherwise?

No my instructor wasn’t from ‘the orient’ whatever that means to you.


----------



## GojuTommy (Dec 28, 2022)

PhotonGuy said:


> Because I do research before I sign up at a dojo and that includes watching classes and seeing how the students perform. Having been in the martial arts for most of my life I know a few things about what to look for and about how to do such research.


That’s like the biggest non-answer I’ve seen in awhile.


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## Steve (Dec 28, 2022)

some mcdojos have terrific instruction.  Gracie Barra is very McDojo and also has terrific standards.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 28, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> What makes you so sure it’s not a mcdojo? Why would people call it a mcdojo otherwise?


Students from said dojo, including myself, have been able to use what we learned to defend ourselves in real life altercations, and it wasn't an uncommon occurrence. Also, belts were not just handed out. One of the most defining characteristics of mcdojo is when they just hand out belts of rank even when the students do terrible. At the dojo I went to belts had to be earned. 

As for why some of the people on this forum were calling my dojo a mcdojo was because students could sign up for belt tests at their own discretion, although that wouldn't mean you would pass. That was just the system that my instructor had in place, belt tests were held about every four months and it was up to the student if they wanted to sign up and test for their next belt or rank whenever a test came up although just signing up and testing did not mean you would get your next belt or rank. You had to perform well enough on the test and it wasn't easy, especially if you were testing for a high rank. 


GojuTommy said:


> No my instructor wasn’t from ‘the orient’ whatever that means to you.


From my observations, instructors that are from the orient usually don't run mcdojos. With mcdojos it's usually American instructors that run them. Now obviously not all American instructors run mcdojos and Im training under an American instructor right now and he's really good and he certainly does not run a mcdojo, its just that when you find a mcdojo it usually will not be run by an Asian instructor.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 28, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> That’s like the biggest non-answer I’ve seen in awhile.


That was a very offensive post.


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## GojuTommy (Dec 28, 2022)

PhotonGuy said:


> That was a very offensive post.


Stop getting offended so easily.


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## GojuTommy (Dec 28, 2022)

PhotonGuy said:


> Students from said dojo, including myself, have been able to use what we learned to defend ourselves in real life altercations, and it wasn't an uncommon occurrence. Also, belts were not just handed out. One of the most defining characteristics of mcdojo is when they just hand out belts of rank even when the students do terrible. At the dojo I went to belts had to be earned.
> 
> As for why some of the people on this forum were calling my dojo a mcdojo was because students could sign up for belt tests at their own discretion, although that wouldn't mean you would pass. That was just the system that my instructor had in place, belt tests were held about every four months and it was up to the student if they wanted to sign up and test for their next belt or rank whenever a test came up although just signing up and testing did not mean you would get your next belt or rank. You had to perform well enough on the test and it wasn't easy, especially if you were testing for a high rank.
> 
> From my observations, instructors that are from the orient usually don't run mcdojos. With mcdojos it's usually American instructors that run them. Now obviously not all American instructors run mcdojos and Im training under an American instructor right now and he's really good and he certainly does not run a mcdojo, its just that when you find a mcdojo it usually will not be run by an Asian instructor.


What are the students in this dojo doing that students needing to defend themselves is common?

Violent crime (im assuming you’re in the US) is extremely rare.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 29, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> What are the students in this dojo doing that students needing to defend themselves is common?
> 
> Violent crime (im assuming you’re in the US) is extremely rare.


Many of the students in my dojo had been in situations where they successfully defended themselves while being attacked. I could go into more detail but that would take too long and it would be getting off track of the point. Aside from that you seem to have ignored the rest of what I said at post #405


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 29, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Stop getting offended so easily.


So why are you calling my response a non answer?


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 29, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> My teacher sometimes says that anyone can kill with a sword and without any training: it’s a 72cmish razor blade after all! I’d suggested anyone can chase off an assailant with a bokuto, without any training as it’s essentially a large club!😃


You could also say that anyone can chase off an assailant with a gun, most assailants are familiar with guns and will run when confronted by somebody whose got a gun (unless the assailant has a gun of their own) regardless of whether or not the person with the gun has any training with it. 

Anyone can kill with a gun and without any training, but training can sure help. Same thing with a sword or a bokuto.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 29, 2022)

Mider said:


> actually you could use it with other objects...are you five?
> 
> do you think a school like this isn’t a mcDojo?
> 
> ...


From my own experience I can tell you this much, you don't want to argue with Dirty Dog.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> some mcdojos have terrific instruction.  Gracie Barra is very McDojo and also has terrific standards.


Is it a belt factory?


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## GojuTommy (Dec 30, 2022)

PhotonGuy said:


> So why are you calling my response a non answer?


Because you didn’t answer the question.
Your entire response boils down to “it’s not a mcdojo because I don’t think it is”


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## geezer (Dec 31, 2022)

Steve said:


> some mcdojos have terrific instruction.  Gracie Barra is very McDojo and also has terrific standards.


A problem that keeps plaguing this thread, and others like it, is the definition of "McDojo". If McDojo is simply taken to mean a large franchised operation with a lot of branches run the same way, then the term McDojo does _not _equal poor quality instruction and your answer quoted above makes perfect sense. 

And you know what, you also can get a decent cup of coffee for a good price at McDonalds. A better deal than Starbuck's IMO.


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## geezer (Dec 31, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Because you didn’t answer the question.
> Your entire response boils down to “it’s not a mcdojo_ *because I don’t think it is”*_


...and _Photon _is exactly right since everybody interprets the term "McDojo" differently. If he doesn't think his school is a "McDojo" and he's happy with his instruction ...well, I don't see the problem.


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## geezer (Dec 31, 2022)

PhotonGuy said:


> As for why some of the people on this forum were calling my dojo a mcdojo was because students could sign up for belt tests at their own discretion, although that wouldn't mean you would pass. That was just the system that my instructor had in place...


I'll admit I've been skipping around and I didn't read those specific comments. But if _*that*_ was the reason people were calling the school a McDojo, they are really dumb! Having a system in place where the students can sign up to test has nothing to do with the quality of instruction. 


PhotonGuy said:


> From my observations, instructors that are from the orient usually don't run mcdojos. With mcdojos it's usually American instructors that run them ...when you find a mcdojo it usually will not be run by an Asian instructor.


I find this "observation" to be an ubsubstantiated racial generalization that could be considered offensive ...although I don't believe you intended it that way. 

If you look around, I think you will find plenty of people of _all_ ethnic groups who are sincere, dedicated and ethical instructors and, sadly, a great many more who are *not! *


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## kfman (Dec 31, 2022)

PhotonGuy said:


> Calling somebody else's dojo a mcdojo, on this forum or anywhere else, I would like to point out that's very offensive. A dojo where somebody has invested their time and dedication, to bash their dojo is very bad manners. Im saying this because I've experienced some of that on this forum myself.


I teach kung fu after 44 years of practice. I know what's good and not. I see others teaching my style where they not only changed movements, they do them overly fast, incorrect and sloppy. I would say these teachers, perpetuating bad kung fu, run McDojos. Buyer beware. It's hard to be truthful without hurting someone's feelings.


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## geezer (Dec 31, 2022)

kfman said:


> I teach kung fu after 44 years of practice. I know what's good and not. I see others teaching my style where they not only changed movements, they do them overly fast, incorrect and sloppy. I would say these teachers, perpetuating bad kung fu,_* run McDojos. *_


Run _McDojos?_ Only if they have a big operation copying the fast-food model based on streamlined production, maximizing profits at the expense of quality. 

...Otherwise they are simply bad instructors!


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## geezer (Dec 31, 2022)

kfman said:


> I teach kung fu after 44 years of practice. I know what's good and not...


Hey, BTW, *"kfman"*, I see that you joined this forum back in '07, same as me. Great to see you still checking in. But you know, 44 posts in 15 years comes down to only about _3 posts a year._ 

With 44 years of Kung-fu experience, it would be great to get more frequent input. Don't keep all that experience to yourself. Post some more!


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## kfman (Dec 31, 2022)

geezer said:


> Run _McDojos?_ Only if they have a big operation copying the fast-food model based on streamlined production, maximizing profits at the expense of quality.
> 
> ...Otherwise they are simply bad instructors!


A little of both. I agree with you.


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## GojuTommy (Dec 31, 2022)

geezer said:


> ...and _Photon _is exactly right since everybody interprets the term "McDojo" differently. If he doesn't think his school is a "McDojo" and he's happy with his instruction ...well, I don't see the problem.


People can be happy with mcdojos, and that as fine, but then don’t complain about the term being offensive if you’re happy with that.

Also franchises aren’t mcdojos. The whole term was literally created around the concept of handing out belts like happy meal toys.

For example if the UFC decided to start franchising gyms to fighters/former fighters no one would realistically call those mcdojos no matter how franchised, or streamlined the training got.
By the same token if a one off school has 12 yr olds that are 3rd Dan, never does sparring or any other sort of pressure testing it will almost universally be referred to a mcdojo if it claims to teach self defense.


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## GojuTommy (Dec 31, 2022)

kfman said:


> I teach kung fu after 44 years of practice. I know what's good and not. I see others teaching my style where they not only changed movements, they do them overly fast, incorrect and sloppy. I would say these teachers, perpetuating bad kung fu, run McDojos. Buyer beware. It's hard to be truthful without hurting someone's feelings.


That’s a very arrogant thing to say.
How do you know those other people haven’t been teaching 54 years, and that you’re not doing things too slowly?

What makes you think that after a thousand of years, various instructors before where your lineage broke off hadnt made numerous changes to things already? What makes you think the changes made in another lineage are wrong?


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## Hyoho (Jan 1, 2023)

GojuTommy said:


> That’s a very arrogant thing to say.
> How do you know those other people haven’t been teaching 54 years, and that you’re not doing things too slowly?
> 
> What makes you think that after a thousand of years, various instructors before where your lineage broke off hadnt made numerous changes to things already? What makes you think the changes made in another lineage are wrong?


Adding the word lineage adds yet another very big can of worms. It wasn't so long ago and still exists in some classical Japanese Ryu that lineage does not go outside Japan as in other things it's very insular in attitudes. If you are not on the yearly ryu meibo (listed). You are an "also ran". Nippon Budokan lists Ryu in Japan through associations like Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. Each year they have done embu to show what link they have outside Japan by letting foreigners demonstrate. But that is all it is, "a link" and bears little credibility. There are Ryu (the trunk of a sturdy tree. A tree has branches but also leaves that fall off.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 2, 2023)

The definitive way of identifying a McDojo in the Japanese MA: The instructor’s keikogi is _covered_ in patches denoting this-and-that accolade 😉


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## KenpoMaster805 (Jan 2, 2023)

I will not call other Karate studios a MCdojo its not right.  Let them learn from their mistake if they had a bad instructor its the instructors fault that he doesn't teach good or his student are not even focus or he gives out black belt at age of 10 or 11 that's the instructors fault.  their some Martial arts that gives out a black belt to a kid ages 9 or 10 you have to be at least 16 or 17 to get your black belt and its up to you if you decide to go to the studio or not to go

What if another Martial Arts school called your karate studio Mcdojo what would you do?


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## Hyoho (Jan 2, 2023)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> What if another Martial Arts school called your karate studio Mcdojo what would you do?


The same as Mr Miyagi?


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## GojuTommy (Jan 2, 2023)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> I will not call other Karate studios a MCdojo its not right.  Let them learn from their mistake if they had a bad instructor its the instructors fault that he doesn't teach good or his student are not even focus or he gives out black belt at age of 10 or 11 that's the instructors fault.  their some Martial arts that gives out a black belt to a kid ages 9 or 10 you have to be at least 16 or 17 to get your black belt and its up to you if you decide to go to the studio or not to go
> 
> What if another Martial Arts school called your karate studio Mcdojo what would you do?


If someone called my school a mcdojo I wouldn’t care because I know I don’t run a mcdojo.
I’m comfortable with what I know and what I pass on to others.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 3, 2023)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> What if another Martial Arts school called your karate studio Mcdojo what would you do?


I would ask on what criteria they are making the claim and then address each point one by one. If I thought the criteria were reasonable and Inwas unable to counter them, I would concede that I was running a McDojo.

Has anyone stated the criteria for a McDojo? Perhaps we can work together to formulate some points. Here are a few I randomly found online that might be a place to start:

1) A weird name - The school has a wacky, gimmicky, or vague name that was likely made up, or it references a martial art but isn't actually a martial art that exists. eh. Joe's Garage Fighting Systems, Snake Crane Boxing, American Jiu-Jitsu, Irish Karate Fu, British Barjitsu Wing Chun, Korean Kenpo Taekwondo, Capoeira Jiu-Jitsu

2) No young adults (15-35yrs old) - If classes are mostly comprised of kids and teens, or older aged out-of-shape mom / dads / granddads / grandmothers, this can be a red flag.

3) Blackbelt fast track programmes - If the school offers a ’black belt program‘, where you pay one fee and you will be fast tracked to the rank of black belt in a few years or less, then this is a sure sign that this school exists to make money (as a first priority) and teach martial arts only as a backseat priority.

4) Overused ‘blackbelt’ references - Trying to cater to the clueless casual customer that anyone can become a "black belt" is one of the biggest signs of a McDojo.

5) There are fees/cost to virtually everything - While most schools charge fees for belt gradings / testings and private lessons, if they are commercialising every single thing in a martial arts school as an extra fee, this could be a red flag.

6) Everyone is eventually promoted - If your school promotes every student on a timely basis, regardless of if they did well on their belt grading or how skilled they actually are, then they are likely a McDojo.

7) Top-heavy hierarchy. Everyone is a blackbelt - If almost every student is a black belt (or worse, if in the kids / teen department), then this school is likely a McDojo.

8) There are made up ranks/belts - If the school advertises a certain martial art that traditionally (or at least officially recognized) does not have rankings or belt levels, then watch out, they may be a McDojo. Beware of instructors who have "black belts" in Kung Fu or Muay Thai - they do not exist!


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## Steve (Jan 3, 2023)

Can a school be a "McDojo" if it's not a chain?  Isn't franchising an intrinsic element?  Otherwise, it's just a school with poor standards.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 3, 2023)

Gyakuto said:


> I would ask on what criteria they are making the claim and then address each point one by one. If I thought the criteria were reasonable and Inwas unable to counter them, I would concede that I was running a McDojo.
> 
> Has anyone stated the criteria for a McDojo? Perhaps we can work together to formulate some points. Here are a few I randomly found online that might be a place to start:
> 
> ...


Is this meant to be a list of things that mean they're a mcdojo, or just red flags that they might be? If the first, I disagree specifically for #'s 1, 2 and 8. 

For 1-Plenty of schools choose a weird name, name it X's fighting system, or will list their styles in the name (american jiujitsu and capoeira jiu jitsu for instance-the first one would likely just be a jj offshoot, and the second probably teaches capoeira and bjj). 

For 2 - definitely a red flag, but schools can be in flux. And how big are the adult classes? If there's like 5 people total attending the adult classes, then happening to not have anyone in that age range could just be chance. And if it's located near a senior center or is a traditionally 'old' style, it makes sense as well.

I'm not a fan of adding belts to styles that don't traditionally have them, but it doesn't automatically mean an issue with the school. Could just be something the instructor instituted to make their curriculum easier/more segmented, or because they got tired of people complaining about lack of belts. Or their own instructor introduced belts for some reason.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 3, 2023)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Is this meant to be a list of things that mean they're a mcdojo, or just red flags that they might be? If the first, I disagree specifically for #'s 1, 2 and 8.
> 
> For 1-Plenty of schools choose a weird name, name it X's fighting system, or will list their styles in the name (american jiujitsu and capoeira jiu jitsu for instance-the first one would likely just be a jj offshoot, and the second probably teaches capoeira and bjj).
> 
> ...


This also ignores that mcdojo's aren't inherintly bad. I think it was Steve mentioned gracie jj is technically a mcdojo system under most definitions, but it's still teaching legitimate bjj.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 3, 2023)

If by franchising you mean ‘several branches’, I don’t think that necessarily implies McDojohood! 

MA seem to follow more of a business/for profit model in the U.S. whereas in the U.K. (my only experience) clubs tend to be amateur in nature and feel and cover expenses at most (hall hire, insurance). But if every aspect of a dojo‘s running is monetised ($5 to use the toilets) then overcharging may be attractive to some types of people for whom making money is their central concern. Perhaps if the teacher’s only source of income is their dojo and  their only means of making a living, then that might be an incentive to McDojofy their enterprise with lots of extras…extra belts, skipping levels for a fee, fast track blackbelt courses etc.

In my opinion, turning any hobby/pastime/sport into a professional venture will attract the money makers at the detriment to the activity. But this is what gives us wonderful things like FIFA (sarcasm).


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## Gyakuto (Jan 3, 2023)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Is this meant to be a list of things that mean they're a mcdojo, or just red flags that they might be? If the first, I disagree specifically for #'s 1, 2 and 8.
> 
> For 1-Plenty of schools choose a weird name, name it X's fighting system, or will list their styles in the name (american jiujitsu and capoeira jiu jitsu for instance-the first one would likely just be a jj offshoot, and the second probably teaches capoeira and bjj).
> 
> ...


Red flags I think and an overall assessment and impression may be required.

You might go on a restaurant date with a very attractive, smartly dressed, intelligent, charming person who makes good conversation and has a good job (I’m describing myself here😑) and be counting your lucky stars. But if during the course of the evening, they’re surly toward the waiting staff and kick a puppy on the way out (red flags), then you might question your initial favourable assessment!


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## Gyakuto (Jan 3, 2023)

I have to say that if _you’re_ happy with doing Ameri-Do-Te, enjoy it and the people you train with, then do continue. If false ancestry and lineages are pulled out the bag then that’s not so good. But this is not confined to modern arts. I believe there’s a famous Okinawa 10th Dan Karate master who has ‘exaggerated‘ his lineage associations, for example!


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 3, 2023)

Gyakuto said:


> Has anyone stated the criteria for a McDojo?





Steve said:


> Can a school be a "McDojo" if it's not a chain?  Isn't franchising an intrinsic element?  Otherwise, it's just a school with poor standards.


Here we come to the crux of the matter. There is no generally agreed upon definition of the word.

A large percentage of people who use the term "McDojo" do so as a general pejorative for a school they perceive to have poor instruction and low standards. (Some even use it for entire arts that they feel are sub-par.)

Another significant percentage add the stipulation that the school is focused on extracting maximum profit off the students in addition to having poor instruction and standards.

Many people use "McDojo" to describe a constellation of common business methods and teaching practices: rapid rank advancement with fees for each belt test, hidden membership fees, special "black belt clubs", long-term contracts, focus on teaching children, avoidance of any training which would be strenuous or painful enough to scare off casual hobbyists, exaggerated claims for the effectiveness of the art and the qualifications of the instructor, etc, etc, etc. The implication is still typically pejorative - that the school supplies poor quality training for excessive prices.

A very small handful of people, such as @Steve, attempt to provide a more neutral, less subjective definition of "McDojo": a business model built around franchises with a standardized curriculum/ranking/pricing/etc. making no judgements regarding the actual quality of instruction. If we were starting from scratch in inventing a word, this might be a more useful definition. It starts by comparison to the business method of McDonalds and focuses on objective metrics rather than subjective perception of quality. However the word is now widespread as a pejorative and almost no one uses it in the way that Steve suggests.

I personally suspect that the origin of "McDojo" was rooted in a few ideas: Firstly, that McDonalds food isn't very good or nutritious.  Secondly that McDonalds is popular among children. Thirdly, that McDonalds serves food quickly. So whoever initially invented the word slapped it onto schools that they perceived as catering to children, providing poor instruction and quick gratification via rank promotion. From there it accumulated additional derogatory connotations depending on the speaker.

I actually think that focusing on the McDonalds business model as a basis for the term McDojo works against the common usage. Whatever criticism you may have for McDonalds, they do provide very inexpensive meals for their customers. In contrast, a typical criticism of "McDojos" is that they are constantly looking for ways to gouge extra money out of their students. Perhaps the McDonalds comparison would hold up better if McDojo franchise owners were required to pay for a belt vending machine on premises which was always broken, because the corporate overlords had a profitable sweetheart deal with the belt vending machine company.

All of this adds up to a long-winded way of explaining why I don't find the word "McDojo" useful. If I have a criticism of a school and feel the need to voice it, I'll just explain the specific factors which I find objectionable.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 3, 2023)

Gyakuto said:


> If false ancestry and lineages are pulled out the bag then that’s not so good. But this is not confined to modern arts. I believe there’s a famous Okinawa 10th Dan Karate master who has ‘exaggerated‘ his lineage associations, for example!


False ancestry and lineages are absolutely not exclusively a modern phenomenon. Just think of all the traditional Chinese martial arts claiming a lineage going back to the Shaolin temple, despite all evidence to the contrary. With a few exceptions, the claimed history of most martial arts becomes extremely suspect once you go back more than a couple of generations.


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## J. Pickard (Jan 3, 2023)

PhotonGuy said:


> it was up to the student if they wanted to sign up and test for their next belt or rank whenever a test came up although just signing up and testing did not mean you would get your next belt or rank. You had to perform well enough on the test and it wasn't easy, especially if you were testing for a high rank.


We do the same thing for our kids class (13 and under). Every 3-4 months we hold a testing and it is up to each student to complete the written test in the members section of our website and fill out a "request to test" form. in this form they have to fully explain why they believe they are ready to test in detail. If their reason is satisfactory then they are allowed to take the physical portion of the test. If they pass they get their next rank, if they fail they can try again next testing (no testing fees). Regardless of if they pass or fail, each student gets a detailed grading sheet back with scores and detailed explanations on what they do well and what they need work on. All of our testing dates are located near the main entrance on a calendar so all students know when they are happening. 

This does 2 things. 1- it teaches the students to be responsible for themselves. We don't tell them when the testing is, that information is posted in plain view and they all know where to find it, it is up to them to stay on top of it and take the initiative if they want to be promoted. 2- it helps to teach kids how to take an introspective look at their training and develop an awareness of their strengths and weaknesses. They have to be honest with themselves because students do fail the testing if they are not ready, just requesting to test does not mean automatically passing.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 3, 2023)

J. Pickard said:


> . in this form they have to fully explain why they believe they are ready to test in detail. If their reason is satisfactory then they are allowed to take the physical portion of the test.


What kind of explanations are deemed satisfactory?


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## Gyakuto (Jan 3, 2023)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I actually think that focusing on the McDonalds business model as a basis for the term McDojo works against the common usage. Whatever criticism you may have for McDonalds, they do provide very inexpensive meals for their customers. In contrast, a typical criticism of "McDojos" is that they are constantly looking for ways to gouge extra money out of their students.


McDonalds are an extremely wealthy organisation which suggests they charge more than the overall value of their ‘food’, so perhaps the comparison is a good one!

Anyway….


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 3, 2023)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> What if another Martial Arts school called your karate studio Mcdojo what would you do?


Why would I care?


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## Steve (Jan 3, 2023)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I personally suspect that the origin of "McDojo" was rooted in a few ideas: Firstly, that McDonalds food isn't very good or nutritious.  Secondly that McDonalds is popular among children. Thirdly, that McDonalds serves food quickly. So whoever initially invented the word slapped it onto schools that they perceived as catering to children, providing poor instruction and quick gratification via rank promotion. From there it accumulated additional derogatory connotations depending on the speaker.


Not the way I've ever used it, but a perfectly understandable alternative.  

I'll just go back to my first comment in this thread. 


Steve said:


> If it's meant to be insulting and critical, we shouldn't be too surprised if the person to whom it's directed is insulted.


Anything that is intended to be insulting shouldn't shock folks when it's taken as an insult.  Whether it is generally understood to be pejorative or not.


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## GojuTommy (Jan 3, 2023)

Steve said:


> Can a school be a "McDojo" if it's not a chain?  Isn't franchising an intrinsic element?  Otherwise, it's just a school with poor standards.


No franchising has nothing to do with mcdojos.

The phrase literally came around because of schools that “hand out belts like happy meal toys.”


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## Steve (Jan 3, 2023)

GojuTommy said:


> No franchising has nothing to do with mcdojos.
> 
> The phrase literally came around because of schools that “hand out belts like happy meal toys.”


Cool. I wasn’t there when the phrase was first coined.  Who are you quoting?


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## J. Pickard (Jan 3, 2023)

Gyakuto said:


> What kind of explanations are deemed satisfactory?


it needs to be thoroughly thought out with complete examples and in-depth explanation. For example, saying "I think I am ready for my next belt because I am" is not acceptable. We have specific objective standards for each rank, in addition each student is given a detailed feedback sheet after each testing with personalized feedback. So if a student says " I believe I am ready for X rank because I have met the standard by *example 1* and *example 2*. After my last testing I was instructed to change Y and I worked on acomplishing this by *example*. I have also learned how the tenets of TKD can impact my life outside of the dojang throught *example*" This would be satisfactory. It would also be satisfactory if they gave a thorough explanation of something they have been struggling with and have overcome.


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## GojuTommy (Jan 3, 2023)

Steve said:


> Cool. I wasn’t there when the phrase was first coined.  Who are you quoting?


Specifically? No one, but if you were in the online martial arts spaces in the early 00s, that was basically the catch phrase used to describe mcdojos, as that faded out, mcdojo faded in.


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## Steve (Jan 3, 2023)

GojuTommy said:


> Specifically? No one, but if you were in the online martial arts spaces in the early 00s, that was basically the catch phrase used to describe mcdojos, as that faded out, mcdojo faded in.


Cool.  Back then, I’m guessing it was as poorly defined as it is now. 

I found this thread, which was a fun read, but not super helpful defining mcdojo:  The whole McDojo thing!

Here’s one from 2006 that starts to get to the heart of it, though to @Tony Dismukes’ Point, there is no consensus. 






						McDojo?
					

so i've been reading for a little while and need to stick my big, fat head in a hornet's nest over this mcdojo thing.  i've read the term and figure it means any or all of the following:  1.  a school that uses professional sales techniques  2.  a school that overcharges  3.  a school run by...



					www.martialtalk.com
				




Am I the only one who likes to read old threads?


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## Steve (Jan 3, 2023)

Here’s another old definition from 2002. 


MartialArtist said:


> How do I know the schools are McDojos?
> 
> The instructor is a self-proclaimed master and is 20-40 years old yet doesn't do any of the drills or shows them how and/or just does fancy kicks to woo the crowd.  He never spars (although masters don't have to) but a McDojo "master" would say, "no, no, no, you're doing it all wrong.  You're supposed to do a triple spin kick instead of a roundhouse" yet don't show you how or why.
> 
> ...


And one last thread.  I’m sure I could find a lot more but it’s time to watch Jack Ryan. 






						The definition of a McDojo!!
					

For all those wondering what Mcdojo is check out this schools site. Look at their masters and black belt and look at their testing requirements! Its hilarious!!!!!!!!!     WorldTaekwondo.com:erg:



					www.martialtalk.com


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## Gyakuto (Jan 4, 2023)

J. Pickard said:


> it needs to be thoroughly thought out with complete examples and in-depth explanation. For example, saying "I think I am ready for my next belt because I am" is not acceptable. We have specific objective standards for each rank, in addition each student is given a detailed feedback sheet after each testing with personalized feedback. So if a student says " I believe I am ready for X rank because I have met the standard by *example 1* and *example 2*. After my last testing I was instructed to change Y and I worked on acomplishing this by *example*. I have also learned how the tenets of TKD can impact my life outside of the dojang throught *example*" This would be satisfactory. It would also be satisfactory if they gave a thorough explanation of something they have been struggling with and have overcome.


That’s interesting. So that begs the question of the rate of failure in your testing. Do candidates fail?


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## geezer (Jan 4, 2023)

Steve said:


> Am *I the only one* who likes to read old threads?


Yeah.
I don't bother looking up old threads, I just _wear _them. _badaboom!_

...but still, thanks for calling attention to them. There's some great discussions archived that are definitely worth revisiting.


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## J. Pickard (Jan 4, 2023)

Gyakuto said:


> That’s interesting. So that begs the question of the rate of failure in your testing. Do candidates fail?


Yes candidates do fail. If we are sure a student is going to fail we strongly encourage them to wait. Usually they take our advice but on the few occasions they don't and they do fail it usually gives them a better, more honest opinion of their own skill and knowledge. We have a very meticulous testing process. I use the cameras in our facility to record every testing. While the testing examiners will take notes and give feedback in real time, we spend a day reviewing the video to give very specific feedback to each individual and if they aren't sure of what we are talking about I show them the testing video and go over the details with them. Our failure rate isn't high though, maybe 2 -3 per year.


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## GojuTommy (Jan 4, 2023)

Steve said:


> Cool.  Back then, I’m guessing it was as poorly defined as it is now.
> 
> I found this thread, which was a fun read, but not super helpful defining mcdojo:  The whole McDojo thing!
> 
> ...


Reading older threads can be fun.

The idea that franchising is related is silly.

If the UFC began franchising gyms to former champions, and all those gyms were producing competent fighters in the local scene, and even a few nationally, no one in their right mind would call these UFC gyms mcdojos despite being a national franchise.


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## GojuTommy (Jan 4, 2023)

By and large I think a lot of confusion about mcdojo definition is a result of people who come from mcdojos being unable to accept it, so they look for other (logical) alternative descriptions, such as mcdojo, McDonald’s, McDonald’s is a franchise, therefore a mcdojo is a franchise, my school isn’t a franchise therefore my dojo isn’t a mcdojo.

Or even predatory financial practices, because that is extremely common among mcdojos, and so people think, well my school has reasonable pricing and registration practices, therefore not a mcdojo.

It simply comes down to poor quality instruction that misleads people as to what they’re learning and how useful it is, giving out belts to people who can’t fight for **** by any reasonable standard. (Point fighting is highly debated if it counts.)

For me the one thing that disqualifies a school from being a mcdojo is honesty and transparency. 
If your kids class of 5-9 yr olds is advertised as a ‘martial arts themed after school program’ and terms like self defense are not used to market it, then it doesn’t matter what you teach or how fast kids get belts, because you’re not telling people their kids are learning something they’re not.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 4, 2023)

GojuTommy said:


> Because you didn’t answer the question.
> Your entire response boils down to “it’s not a mcdojo because I don’t think it is”


Alright I will explain but for that to work you can't ignore what I say. You do seem to ignore much of what I say in my posts so for me to make my point you can't ignore what I say in this post. 

When I visit a dojo I watch how the students perform, particularly the high ranking students. If I see students with black belts who perform terrible then I know its not a dojo that I will train at. An example would be this. Right now I am going to a dojo that teaches Goju Ryu as it's an art I've been wanting to learn for some time, but it is not the first Goju Ryu dojo I visited. The first dojo I visited that taught Goju Ryu was considerably closer but when I went and observed a class and saw that the black belt students were just downright terrible I knew I was not going to train there. When a dojo has black belt students that are so bad that it makes me cringe then that is what in my book is a mcdojo. So I visited the dojo that Im going to now, which even though its further away from me, the quality of instruction is much better as the high ranking students are much better and black belts are not handed out like candy. So that's where I decided I was going to learn Goju Ryu.

So that is how I determine what I consider to be a mcdojo and whether or not I will go there.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 4, 2023)

geezer said:


> I'll admit I've been skipping around and I didn't read those specific comments. But if _*that*_ was the reason people were calling the school a McDojo, they are really dumb! Having a system in place where the students can sign up to test has nothing to do with the quality of instruction.


Well some of the people who have posted responses on this very thread have made that claim. I won't mention names as those people know who they are. 


geezer said:


> I find this "observation" to be an ubsubstantiated racial generalization that could be considered offensive ...although I don't believe you intended it that way.
> 
> If you look around, I think you will find plenty of people of _all_ ethnic groups who are sincere, dedicated and ethical instructors and, sadly, a great many more who are *not! *


Well certainly not all American instructors run mcdojos, the dojo Im going to right now is run by an instructor from the USA and he certainly does not run a mcdojo, its just that Asian instructors tend to not run mcdojos as they believe in hard work as part of their culture.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 4, 2023)

geezer said:


> And you know what, you also can get a decent cup of coffee for a good price at McDonalds. A better deal than Starbuck's IMO.


But McDonalds does superheat their coffee, or at least they used to, because they would sell cheap coffee and by superheating it they disguise its bad taste. As a result you can burn yourself if you spill it on you and then sue them.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 4, 2023)

J. Pickard said:


> We do the same thing for our kids class (13 and under). Every 3-4 months we hold a testing and it is up to each student to complete the written test in the members section of our website and fill out a "request to test" form. in this form they have to fully explain why they believe they are ready to test in detail. If their reason is satisfactory then they are allowed to take the physical portion of the test. If they pass they get their next rank, if they fail they can try again next testing (no testing fees). Regardless of if they pass or fail, each student gets a detailed grading sheet back with scores and detailed explanations on what they do well and what they need work on. All of our testing dates are located near the main entrance on a calendar so all students know when they are happening.
> 
> This does 2 things. 1- it teaches the students to be responsible for themselves. We don't tell them when the testing is, that information is posted in plain view and they all know where to find it, it is up to them to stay on top of it and take the initiative if they want to be promoted. 2- it helps to teach kids how to take an introspective look at their training and develop an awareness of their strengths and weaknesses. They have to be honest with themselves because students do fail the testing if they are not ready, just requesting to test does not mean automatically passing.


Alright, so how about for students who are over the age of 13? You said its for your kids class for students who were 13 and younger. 

At my old dojo there wasn't a written part of the test, you just had to perform the techniques, combinations, and katas, and if you were testing for a belt above yellow you had to spar. And you had to perform well enough of course, especially with the katas. Just knowing the kata was not enough and as a matter of fact when students failed about eighty percent of the time it was because their kata wasn't good enough.


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## GojuTommy (Jan 4, 2023)

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright I will explain but for that to work you can't ignore what I say. You do seem to ignore much of what I say in my posts so for me to make my point you can't ignore what I say in this post.
> 
> When I visit a dojo I watch how the students perform, particularly the high ranking students. If I see students with black belts who perform terrible then I know its not a dojo that I will train at. An example would be this. Right now I am going to a dojo that teaches Goju Ryu as it's an art I've been wanting to learn for some time, but it is not the first Goju Ryu dojo I visited. The first dojo I visited that taught Goju Ryu was considerably closer but when I went and observed a class and saw that the black belt students were just downright terrible I knew I was not going to train there. When a dojo has black belt students that are so bad that it makes me cringe then that is what in my book is a mcdojo. So I visited the dojo that Im going to now, which even though its further away from me, the quality of instruction is much better as the high ranking students are much better and black belts are not handed out like candy. So that's where I decided I was going to learn Goju Ryu.
> 
> So that is how I determine what I consider to be a mcdojo and whether or not I will go there.


I read what you said but there’s no objective marker there for your decision.
It’s so the students meet your standards, which inherently means a very biased judge. If you were trained at a mcdojo originally, then your judgement is tainted unless you found non-mcdojo places to train at in between.

Therefore again your entire post boils down to “not a mcdojo because I don’t think it’s a mcdojo”

You may be correct, but that’s not much of a defense when people make the accusation.


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## Steve (Jan 4, 2023)

GojuTommy said:


> Reading older threads can be fun.
> 
> The idea that franchising is related is silly.



Silly?  Well now you’re just trying to hurt my feelings. 


GojuTommy said:


> If the UFC began franchising gyms to former champions, and all those gyms were producing competent fighters in the local scene, and even a few nationally, no one in their right mind would call these UFC gyms mcdojos despite being a national franchise.


While franchising isn’t the only indicator, it sure was a big part of the TKD and Karate McDojo/McDojang thing back in the early 2000s.  Like a kind of legal pyramid scheme.  I train you, give you a black belt and then you open your own school as an affiliate of mine.  I give you credibility and a standardized curriculum, and you give me money money money.  

And dude, the UFC gyms are so McDojo.


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## Gyakuto (Jan 5, 2023)

J. Pickard said:


> Yes candidates do fail. If we are sure a student is going to fail we strongly encourage them to wait. Usually they take our advice but on the few occasions they don't and they do fail it usually gives them a better, more honest opinion of their own skill and knowledge. We have a very meticulous testing process. I use the cameras in our facility to record every testing. While the testing examiners will take notes and give feedback in real time, we spend a day reviewing the video to give very specific feedback to each individual and if they aren't sure of what we are talking about I show them the testing video and go over the details with them. Our failure rate isn't high though, maybe 2 -3 per year.


That sounds very thorough, indeed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2023)

GojuTommy said:


> No franchising has nothing to do with mcdojos.
> 
> The phrase literally came around because of schools that “hand out belts like happy meal toys.”


I don't know the origin of the term, but it was used quite a bit in the past to refer to dojo chains that expanded quickly (in this case, either franchises, a local owner with multiple locations, or an organization that spread quickly), where the locations were all run with the same model.


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## geezer (Jan 5, 2023)

PhotonGuy said:


> But McDonalds does superheat their coffee, or at least they used to, because they would sell cheap coffee and by superheating it they disguise its bad taste. As a result you can burn yourself if you spill it on you and then sue them.


You are more than a little behind the times on this issue. The famous hot coffee lawsuit dates back to 1994, almost three decades ago. See below:






						Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




In more recent years, numerous reviewers have rated McDonalds regular coffee as much improved and equal to or better than Starbuck's. Of course opinions vary. Here's a typical review:









						Here's How McDonald's Coffee Compares To Starbucks - Mashed
					

Two of the most popular options for coffee in the U.S. are Starbucks - of course - and believe it or not, McDonald's. Just how good is McCafé coffee after all?




					www.mashed.com
				




Notice that McDonalds is using a _medium brew _rather than a dark brew, that it is _less bitter_, and that their _caffeine content is higher_, and it's _a lot cheaper_. All those suit my personal preferences for plain coffee for my commute home from work. That said, I also frequent Starbuck's for fancier brews.  

What has this to do with MA??? Well, I start my day at 3:45 am, so I really need that caffeine kick before teaching my evening class!


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## geezer (Jan 5, 2023)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I don't know the origin of the term, but it was used quite a bit in the past to refer to dojo chains that expanded quickly (in this case, either franchises, a local owner with multiple locations, or an organization that spread quickly), where the locations were all run with the same model.


I think this is also right. Schools built on a mass production model copying fast food chains, (whether franchised or not) catering to kids and, yes, passing out the the belts like happy meals toys, but charging a lot more! 

I have a friend that kinda-sorta teaches TKD that way. I was appalled by the low standards I saw when he was testing some of the little kids (the bread and butter of his business).

I asked him about it and he replied "Oh that's just for the _junior_ belts". When his students moved up to the _adult ranks_ (for middle schoolers, teens, and adults) his standards were very respectable, and students (like my son) did sometimes fail their tests. And the testing fee (at that time) was only $5 ...including the new belt!

So McDojo? Maybe ...in some regards. But not a "belt factory".

I feel that my son got good training there. He worked hard for years to earn a brown belt before leaving for college. And, *not* at all like the place that my step-brother's kid got a 2nd degree black belt at age twelve ...after his dad threatened to pull him out if he didn't pass!


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## J. Pickard (Jan 5, 2023)

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright, so how about for students who are over the age of 13? You said its for your kids class for students who were 13 and younger.
> 
> At my old dojo there wasn't a written part of the test, you just had to perform the techniques, combinations, and katas, and if you were testing for a belt above yellow you had to spar. And you had to perform well enough of course, especially with the katas. Just knowing the kata was not enough and as a matter of fact when students failed about eighty percent of the time it was because their kata wasn't good enough.


Great question. Our adult and teen programs are run in a much more intense fashion. Questions that would be on the written test for our kids are asked to adult and teen students in the middle of training when critical thinking and recall is a bit harder so they have to know the answers outright. Training is a lot tougher and is run on a tight schedule with no room for talking, socializing, or slacking. So I tell all of our teen and adult students that every class is a testing. When I see they are ready for their next rank they are promoted at the end of class, no formal testing needed. Adults and older teens can learn faster from quick critique than younger kids can so we are capable of running this way while maintaining standards. As previously stated we have cameras in our school that are set to record anytime they detect motion so they record all class long. Because of this I am able to review classes and look at repeating issues and give detailed feedback sheets to the adult students as well. In addition we recommend all students keep a training journal and bring it every class so that when given feedback from the instructor during class they can write it down after class so they don't forget what they need to work on.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 5, 2023)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well some of the people who have posted responses on this very thread have made that claim. I won't mention names as those people know who they are.
> 
> Well certainly not all American instructors run mcdojos, the dojo Im going to right now is run by an instructor from the USA and he certainly does not run a mcdojo, its just that Asian instructors tend to not run mcdojos as they believe in hard work as part of their culture.


Wow, more racist generalizations? You need sensitivity training more than I do. At least make it funny if you are going to generalize.


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## geezer (Jan 5, 2023)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Wow, more racist generalizations? You need sensitivity training more than I do. At least make it funny if you are going to generalize.


_Wing Woo Gar_, do ya think that maybe a better way for _Photon_ to have phrased this sentiment would have been something like this: _In my experience, modern *Western capitalist culture* tends to produce more "McDojos" than the traditional Asian model._

On the other hand,_ Photon, _*my* personal experience with my old _Chinese_ sifu from Hong Kong was the opposite of yours. If he was a Grandmaster of kung-fu, then he was certainly a Great Grandmaster of the capitalist ethic!*  

*Actual quote: "Do not complain about how much I charge you. Remember, I cheat you once so now you can cheat your students 1,000 times. Always make them pay a lot or you break your rice bowl."


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 5, 2023)

geezer said:


> _Wing Woo Gar_, do ya think that maybe a better way for _Photon_ to have phrased this sentiment would have been something like this: _In my experience, modern *Western capitalist culture* tends to produce more "McDojos" than the traditional Asian model._
> 
> On the other hand,_ Photon, _*my* personal experience with my old _Chinese_ sifu from Hong Kong was the opposite of yours. If he was a Grandmaster of kung-fu, then he was certainly a Great Grandmaster of the capitalist ethic!*
> 
> *Actual quote: "Do not complain about how much I charge you. Remember, I cheat you once so now you can cheat your students 1,000 times. Always make them pay a lot or you break your rice bowl."


My old Chinese Sigung had a sliding scale based on …? I once paid 100.00 for 6 hours a day for 7 days of intense personal instruction with him. I saw him charge some people 150.00 for one hour, and he was ferocious with them.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 5, 2023)

geezer said:


> _Wing Woo Gar_, do ya think that maybe a better way for _Photon_ to have phrased this sentiment would have been something like this: _In my experience, modern *Western capitalist culture* tends to produce more "McDojos" than the traditional Asian model._
> 
> On the other hand,_ Photon, _*my* personal experience with my old _Chinese_ sifu from Hong Kong was the opposite of yours. If he was a Grandmaster of kung-fu, then he was certainly a Great Grandmaster of the capitalist ethic!*
> 
> *Actual quote: "Do not complain about how much I charge you. Remember, I cheat you once so now you can cheat your students 1,000 times. Always make them pay a lot or you break your rice bowl."


I think if photon has any better way to express those kinds of racist sentiments he should keep those to himself as well. There is no excuse for it.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 5, 2023)

geezer said:


> _Wing Woo Gar_, do ya think that maybe a better way for _Photon_ to have phrased this sentiment would have been something like this: _In my experience, modern *Western capitalist culture* tends to produce more "McDojos" than the traditional Asian model._
> 
> On the other hand,_ Photon, _*my* personal experience with my old _Chinese_ sifu from Hong Kong was the opposite of yours. If he was a Grandmaster of kung-fu, then he was certainly a Great Grandmaster of the capitalist ethic!*
> 
> *Actual quote: "Do not complain about how much I charge you. Remember, I cheat you once so now you can cheat your students 1,000 times. Always make them pay a lot or you break your rice bowl."


Wow, that is an amazing level of open honestly.  I guess I haven’t learned that lesson.  I feel like a stingey bastard for charging at all, but I do have some expenses I would like to cover.  

I think it’s a sad thing when a fellow cannot find anything in life that is worth doing for its own sake, for the joy of doing it.   It must always come with a fat paycheck.  I have an uncle who seems to be like that.  I don’t spend time with him.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 5, 2023)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Wow, more racist generalizations? You need sensitivity training more than I do. At least make it funny if you are going to generalize.


Saying that the Asian culture values hard work is racist? If anything it's a positive stereotype.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 5, 2023)

GojuTommy said:


> I read what you said but there’s no objective marker there for your decision.
> It’s so the students meet your standards, which inherently means a very biased judge. If you were trained at a mcdojo originally, then your judgement is tainted unless you found non-mcdojo places to train at in between.
> 
> Therefore again your entire post boils down to “not a mcdojo because I don’t think it’s a mcdojo”
> ...


So then I suppose it all boils down to whether or not a person thinks a particular dojo is a good dojo to train at and the standards for whether or not a dojo is a good dojo to train at will of course vary from person to person. A politer way of saying it would be to say that a particular dojo doesn't meet your standards as a dojo that you would train at, the term mcdojo can be offensive.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 5, 2023)

geezer said:


> You are more than a little behind the times on this issue. The famous hot coffee lawsuit dates back to 1994, almost three decades ago. See below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I haven't had coffee from McDonalds for a long time so I wouldn't know. In fact, I've put off coffee altogether for some time now.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 5, 2023)

J. Pickard said:


> Great question. Our adult and teen programs are run in a much more intense fashion. Questions that would be on the written test for our kids are asked to adult and teen students in the middle of training when critical thinking and recall is a bit harder so they have to know the answers outright. Training is a lot tougher and is run on a tight schedule with no room for talking, socializing, or slacking. So I tell all of our teen and adult students that every class is a testing. When I see they are ready for their next rank they are promoted at the end of class, no formal testing needed. Adults and older teens can learn faster from quick critique than younger kids can so we are capable of running this way while maintaining standards. As previously stated we have cameras in our school that are set to record anytime they detect motion so they record all class long. Because of this I am able to review classes and look at repeating issues and give detailed feedback sheets to the adult students as well. In addition we recommend all students keep a training journal and bring it every class so that when given feedback from the instructor during class they can write it down after class so they don't forget what they need to work on.


I see, so your adult programs sound a bit like what my Goju Ryu instructor does in terms of how he promotes students. He does do some formal testing but much of his testing he does just from watching you in class. So much of the time when you're being tested you won't know it. As he runs a rather small dojo it would work.


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## GojuTommy (Jan 5, 2023)

PhotonGuy said:


> So then I suppose it all boils down to whether or not a person thinks a particular dojo is a good dojo to train at and the standards for whether or not a dojo is a good dojo to train at will of course vary from person to person. A politer way of saying it would be to say that a particular dojo doesn't meet your standards as a dojo that you would train at, the term mcdojo can be offensive.


Not my concern if someone finds my verbiage offensive.
It’s literally one of the stupidest things to get offended over.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 5, 2023)

PhotonGuy said:


> Saying that the Asian culture values hard work is racist? If anything it's a positive stereotype.


Even positive stereotypes are racist. I know quite a few asians who hate the stereotypes that they're good at math, piano, or karate; which on the surface are all positive things. People say that hispanics are hard workers-which sound positive until you realize they're normally saying it to couch their belief that hispanics are more suited for menial labor than others.


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## Steve (Jan 5, 2023)

PhotonGuy said:


> Saying that the Asian culture values hard work is racist? If anything it's a positive stereotype.


Hey @PhotonGuy.  It actually is quite racist.  There is a lot of information that you may find helpful if you look up “model minority” and how that stereotype hurts all people of color. Here’s one article to get you started.  









						6 Charts That Dismantle The Trope Of Asian Americans As A Model Minority
					

For years, the myth about Asian Americans and their perceived collective success has been used as a racial wedge. Here's a look at some common misconceptions driven by the "model minority" myth.




					www.npr.org


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## geezer (Jan 5, 2023)

Steve said:


> Hey @PhotonGuy.  It actually is quite racist.  There is a lot of information that you may find helpful if you look up “model minority” and how that stereotype hurts all people of color. Here’s one article to get you started.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Checked out the link. Worth reading. Short version: don't generalize. Terms like Asian, POC ....even Caucasian or "White" are gross generalizations that perforce reduce vast and diverse populations to shallow stereotypes. See people for who they are ...not as some abstract idea or group. 

At least that's how I like to be seen ....as _me,_ not some stereotypical "OWB" (Old White Bastard). Naw. I'm a very _individualistic_ old white bastard!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 5, 2023)

PhotonGuy said:


> Saying that the Asian culture values hard work is racist? If anything it's a positive stereotype.


You are allowed to say whatever you want, I support you in that respect.  I am allowed to feel whatever I want about what you say. I think that the fact that you don’t get that what you expressed would be interpreted as racist, is unfortunate. It’s not my place to educate you, but think about it.  You doubled down on it, saying it’s positive racism. That, is where you have an even more serious disconnect in my opinion. I doubt anything I would say will affect you in this regard. Please do go on sir, and illuminate me on the virtues and values of various culture groups as you see it. I invite you to exercise your rights to expressing your opinions, however backward, ignorant, and distasteful I might find them.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jan 5, 2023)

GojuTommy said:


> Not my concern if someone finds my verbiage offensive.
> It’s literally one of the stupidest things to get offended over.


You must not be married.


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## GojuTommy (Friday at 9:29 AM)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You must not be married.


Nope but been living with my gf for 5yrs now.
Luckily she understands that being offended doesn’t help any situation.
If something causes offense to us we examine why it causes us offense.
If it causes offense because it’s a negative thing that is accurate we either accept that it’s true or we work the make it inaccurate in the future.

If it’s not accurate to us why would waste time being offended?

Now obviously there’s the things that fall under bigotry that are a separate issue.


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## GojuTommy (Friday at 9:37 AM)

PhotonGuy said:


> So then I suppose it all boils down to whether or not a person thinks a particular dojo is a good dojo to train at and the standards for whether or not a dojo is a good dojo to train at will of course vary from person to person. A politer way of saying it would be to say that a particular dojo doesn't meet your standards as a dojo that you would train at, the term mcdojo can be offensive.


I mean there are some objective standards that can be applied.
Is the dojo/gym competing and having regular success fighting? Preferably not only point fighting, and definitely a red flag if all their wins are from in house competitions only.
Is the dojo doing real resistance training?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Friday at 10:41 AM)

GojuTommy said:


> Nope but been living with my gf for 5yrs now.
> Luckily she understands that being offended doesn’t help any situation.
> If something causes offense to us we examine why it causes us offense.
> If it causes offense because it’s a negative thing that is accurate we either accept that it’s true or we work the make it inaccurate in the future.
> ...


My point exactly. Bigotry is verbiage I find offensive regardless of intent or direction. You are lucky to have found a tough skinned woman. Mine is fairly stoic under most circumstance. I have a rather sharp tongue when agitated, and I have certainly made some mistakes in tone and manner over the years. She has a special way of looking at me that tells me she is disappointed in my conduct.


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## PhotonGuy (Friday at 3:53 PM)

GojuTommy said:


> Not my concern if someone finds my verbiage offensive.
> It’s literally one of the stupidest things to get offended over.


Well I don't recall you calling any of my dojos mcdojos and honestly I don't care if you do because I know that's not the case. The problem is when people are missing the point. If Im trying to make a point and people are getting off track of the point by calling my dojo a mcdojo or by deviating in some other way.


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## PhotonGuy (Friday at 3:54 PM)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Even positive stereotypes are racist. I know quite a few asians who hate the stereotypes that they're good at math, piano, or karate; which on the surface are all positive things. People say that hispanics are hard workers-which sound positive until you realize they're normally saying it to couch their belief that hispanics are more suited for menial labor than others.


Well that's not how I intended it. I never considered a compliment to be racist, its insults that are racist.


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## PhotonGuy (Friday at 4:01 PM)

Steve said:


> Hey @PhotonGuy.  It actually is quite racist.  There is a lot of information that you may find helpful if you look up “model minority” and how that stereotype hurts all people of color. Here’s one article to get you started.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I happen to be half asian American myself and if somebody calls me smart, hard working, and nice, I take it as a compliment. I've always liked those stereotypes and as I said, Im speaking from the position of being half asian American and being very proud of my heritage.


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## PhotonGuy (Friday at 4:12 PM)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You are allowed to say whatever you want, I support you in that respect.  I am allowed to feel whatever I want about what you say.


Sure you do, and I think it's good that you express how you feel and to be honest about it, I can always use the feedback.


Wing Woo Gar said:


> I think that the fact that you don’t get that what you expressed would be interpreted as racist, is unfortunate. It’s not my place to educate you, but think about it.  You doubled down on it, saying it’s positive racism. That, is where you have an even more serious disconnect in my opinion. I doubt anything I would say will affect you in this regard.


We all have our own points of view and mine might be different than yours, as I point out in post #485, but please realize that I don't intend to be offensive. 


Wing Woo Gar said:


> Please do go on sir, and illuminate me on the virtues and values of various culture groups as you see it. I invite you to exercise your rights to expressing your opinions, however backward, ignorant, and distasteful I might find them.


I would if its allowed on the forum.


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## Steve (Friday at 5:34 PM)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well I happen to be half asian American myself and if somebody calls me smart, hard working, and nice, I take it as a compliment. I've always liked those stereotypes and as I said, Im speaking from the position of being half asian American and being very proud of my heritage.


You asked a question and I tried to give you a very clear, direct answer, along with a link to some additional information.    

For what it's worth, if someone calls me smart, hardworking, and nice because they think I am those things, I would take it as a compliment, as well.  If someone calls me hardworking, smart, and nice, because I'm Caucasian... well, that's not okay, and I would not take that as a compliment.


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## Mider (Sunday at 7:09 PM)

PhotonGuy said:


> From my own experience I can tell you this much, you don't want to argue with Dirty Dog.


Huh?


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## OnlineChunner (Sunday at 10:07 PM)

If the school is an actual mcdojo, accept the fact that it is. This is not a snowflake forum, ain't it?


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## Steve (Sunday at 10:34 PM)

PhotonGuy said:


> From my own experience I can tell you this much, you don't want to argue with Dirty Dog.


That made me laugh.  Thank you.


OnlineChunner said:


> If the school is an actual mcdojo, accept the fact that it is. This is not a snowflake forum, ain't it?


snowflake?  I’ve only ever used that term in one context.


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## Gyakuto (Monday at 7:08 AM)

I heard something new and interesting in a TV interview last night: if you display an unconscious bias and it is brought to your attention, it’s an opportunity to do something about that unconscious bias and hopefully mitigate it. If you don’t take that opportunity to address it, then that unconscious bias can evolve into a prejudice.


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## Hyoho (Monday at 7:37 AM)

I know not all do Japanese arts on the forum but this might be good read for some. Striving and practicing for these reasons is a good objective. PAGETITLE | SITENAME


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## Gyakuto (Monday at 9:09 AM)

Hyoho said:


> I know not all do Japanese arts on the forum but this might be good read for some. Striving and practicing for these reasons is a good objective. PAGETITLE | SITENAME


This is a nice synopsis of Budo with statements I’ve seen before such as ‘build character‘ (although I’ve never heard that term defined meaningfully). 

But in my direct experience, high-graded, long time practitioners of Budo display these positive characteristics no more than anyone else in the population. In fact some of the most arrogant, financially corrupt, sometimes violent, misogynistic, racist people I’ve come across have been 6th, 7th and 8th Dan! I really do think it’s a myth that Budo training produces better people anymore than boxing or pottery classes do. If you teach a person of poor character how to use a sword, you will likely get a swordsman of poor character! 

_If_ Confucianism, Zen/Shingon/Shinto/Christian values, Greek philosophy etc were taught alongside Budo, then this charter might have a chance but they never are in my varied experience.

When I’ve trained with hachidan hanshi it’s _always_ been about the technical aspects of swordsmanship. I have _never_ heard them speak of morals, ethics or social behaviour.


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## Steve (Monday at 9:20 AM)

Gyakuto said:


> I heard something new and interesting in a TV interview last night: if you display an unconscious bias and it is brought to your attention, it’s an opportunity to do something about that unconscious bias and hopefully mitigate it. If you don’t take that opportunity to address it, then that unconscious bias can evolve into a prejudice.


If anyone is interested, this is a cool site with a lot of different quizzes that will help evaluate your implicit biases.  






						Take a Test
					






					implicit.harvard.edu


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## Gyakuto (Monday at 9:36 AM)

Steve said:


> If anyone is interested, this is a cool site with a lot of different quizzes that will help evaluate your implicit biases.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What if it says I’m a member of the KuKlux Klan? 😳


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## Rich Parsons (Monday at 9:42 AM)

I remember the term Mc-Mansion for the housing expansion and housing growth in large sub-divisions in the 90's. 
At the same time, Mc Dojo was also being used, and it applied to strip malls / plazas and mull on Malls where a Training facility was located. 
...
They all looked a lot a like, 
Walk in some chairs for customers, either a desk up front or in the back 
Matts
A place to put your shoes
A place to change clothes
Flags on the wall
Bright Florescent lights above with drop ceilings 
.
It seems they all looked alike 
Like many McDonalds, Some had play areas inside or outside, some had a wide open are with lots of their micro chairs and booths along the walls. 
.
Somewhere in the process it also became a slur. 
Like Planet Fitness is a slur for people used to old school gyms. 
.
I think it is mostly used as a slur or insult, yet it is also used for successful schools by people who are jealous, and just do not like to see others succeed. 
. 
So it is what it is. 
I know some people think a blue car or truck  is ugly and or stupid to own. 
While others think Black is never clean. 
. 
To each their own in my opinion.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Monday at 9:56 AM)

Steve said:


> If anyone is interested, this is a cool site with a lot of different quizzes that will help evaluate your implicit biases.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Entirely tangential story, but at this point I don't think this thread has a point so i'm fine with it. If you don't feel like reading two unrelated stories on race perception, just skip this post. That said:

Back when I was in college, that site got me in trouble with some of my peers. Keep in mind I went to a school known for it's theater program (so very liberal), that was also a private school on the more expensive side, in the Northeast US (so very white). 
To my knowledge, I was one of, if not the only, minority in one psych class-but I look very white, and have a white last name. My friends were mostly not in the psychology major, so none of the people in the class knew I'm mixed. I also grew up idolozing my older cousins who lived with me when I was a kid, who were black & hispanic mixed, and by chance my other main role models were all POC. I do have biases as a result, as do we all, which I'm aware of and try not effect my general behavior/attitudes. All that's just some background for what comes next. 

In one of my psychology classes, we were asked to take a race (white/black) test, and share our results. Pretty much everyone in my class assumed they would come back as having no biases (despite us already learning that's not how it works), and were shocked when everyone came back with an implicit bias towards black people/against white people. Except me, which they at first made them assume I was lying. Then when they saw the results (I think we had to print them out), someone accused me of cheating the test by purposefully waiting longer on certain ones, or taking it multiple times. Caused a huge argument with like 3 of my classmates, which ended up everyone calling my racist against white people.

My guess is that they couldn't accept someone wasn't implicitly racist against black people, or at least it wasn't them. I don't think I ever explained to them my race/personal context, as it's not there business. 

A similar thing happened in a different class, with many of the same people. A professor was talking about bias, and asked us which of the two people would be on our radar for stealing. One was an old white man in a hoodie, the other was a young black man with 'typical black clothing' (i forget exactly what). The point of the discussion was how systemically we are taught to discriminate against certain types of people and assume their shoplifting with no evidence, while ignoring others. 

Each year at B&N, I had to complete a loss prevention program, where they went over what to watch out for, how to react, how to submit claims, where to post known shoplifters, etc. One of the big thing is who to watch out for as a shoplifter. The primary suspects are middle aged individuals as they're the most frequent shoplifters. And people wearing either backpacks/bigger-than-needed bags, or baggy clothes. And people wearing hoodies, with the hood up. So the first guy would have been on my radar, per what the 'system' said, while the other guy would not. I shared that after the entire class was discussing how horrible the racism is in this regard, but not discussing any personal experiences, or statistics. They all again accused me of lying, misunderstanding, or claiming that barnes and noble was an anomaly for some unknown reason. None suggested further research into it, including (I think) the professor who just had us move on.

It was all really bizarre, and did a bit to teach me about the ways people aren't willing to examine their own biases.


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## Gyakuto (Monday at 10:11 AM)

That is very interesting. We all have biases but it’s import to acknowledge their presence and then actively try and prevent them influencing you when making important decisions. This is possible by trying your best to look the evidence exclusively and dispassionately. But we are human. I was once attack by a goose, I now give them a wide berth and would probably scrutinise a job application from one a little closer than usual, even though there are good and rogue geese out there.


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## Steve (Monday at 10:26 AM)

Gyakuto said:


> What if it says I’m a member of the KuKlux Klan?





Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Entirely tangential story, but at this point I don't think this thread has a point so i'm fine with it. If you don't feel like reading two unrelated stories on race perception, just skip this post. That said:
> 
> Back when I was in college, that site got me in trouble with some of my peers. Keep in mind I went to a school known for it's theater program (so very liberal), that was also a private school on the more expensive side, in the Northeast US (so very white).
> To my knowledge, I was one of, if not the only, minority in one psych class-but I look very white, and have a white last name. My friends were mostly not in the psychology major, so none of the people in the class knew I'm mixed. I also grew up idolozing my older cousins who lived with me when I was a kid, who were black & hispanic mixed, and by chance my other main role models were all POC. I do have biases as a result, as do we all, which I'm aware of and try not effect my general behavior/attitudes. All that's just some background for what comes next.
> ...


Very interesting.  Thanks for sharing that.  Sometimes, in the moment, people can feel judged and defensive.  But even if, at the time, they weren’t ready, I’m sure at least some of them have given the topic more thought.  It takes a while to get past the initial shock of being shown a disconnect between who they are and who they think they are.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Monday at 10:53 AM)

PhotonGuy said:


> Sure you do, and I think it's good that you express how you feel and to be honest about it, I can always use the feedback.
> 
> We all have our own points of view and mine might be different than yours, as I point out in post #485, but please realize that I don't intend to be offensive.
> 
> I would if its allowed on the forum.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Monday at 10:54 AM)

Like this?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Monday at 1:03 PM)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Like this?


Was there meant to be a picture/video there?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Monday at 2:02 PM)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Was there meant to be a picture/video there?


Nah I just fumbled the quote. Not a big deal.


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## Steve (Monday at 8:34 PM)

Gyakuto said:


> What if it says I’m a member of the KuKlux Klan? 😳


Are you?


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## Gyakuto (Tuesday at 2:20 AM)

Steve said:


> Are you?


Do they have a branch in the U.K.? Do you think they’d consider my application 👨🏽‍🔬


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## Gerry Seymour (Tuesday at 5:32 AM)

Gyakuto said:


> Do they have a branch in the U.K.? Do you think they’d consider my application 👨🏽‍🔬


We managed to get people in the US who consider themselves Nazis, so there are probably people who consider themselves KKK in Europe.


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## Steve (Tuesday at 7:41 AM)

Gyakuto said:


> Do they have a branch in the U.K.? Do you think they’d consider my application 👨🏽‍🔬


I sincerely hope not.


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## Steve (Tuesday at 7:42 AM)

Gerry Seymour said:


> We managed to get people in the US who consider themselves Nazis, so there are probably people who consider themselves KKK in Europe.


There are Qanon cultists in Germany.


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## geezer (Tuesday at 11:15 AM)

Steve said:


> If anyone is interested, this is a cool site with a lot of different quizzes that will help evaluate your implicit biases.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just took another online "Implicit Bias" test, the "race Bias (Black-White) at "project Implicit": 






						Take a Test
					






					implicit.harvard.edu
				




I've never taken this kind of test before, and frankly am pretty dubious about the results. I mean here are the facts: 

I'm a grumpy old white guy that grew up in an upper-middle class white neighborhood attended private schools and had a lot of privileges. Now I live in a pretty nice old predominantly white neighborhood and only have a few black acquaintances. So I should be full of implicit bias against minorities, right?

But that test (and I tried to be honest with my responses) said that I show "a moderately strong bias towards Black people". So I'm implicitly biases in favor of Blacks? How does that work????

I'm confused.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Tuesday at 11:25 AM)

Steve said:


> I sincerely hope not.


Why not? It would mean they have diversified into accepting Asians. @Gyakuto is obviously joking. Get a look at his picture, even Stevie Wonder can see that he won’t be getting in.


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## PhotonGuy (Tuesday at 12:52 PM)

Mider said:


> Huh?


Arguing with Dirty Dog is pointless, I speak from my own experience.


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## Steve (Tuesday at 1:09 PM)

geezer said:


> I just took another online "Implicit Bias" test, the "race Bias (Black-White) at "project Implicit":
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don’t believe it’s as cut and dried as all that.  It will be impacted by your core beliefs and traits, significant life events, etc.  in fact, I think the entire point of these tests is simply to encourage introspection and expose potential blind spots.


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## Steve (Tuesday at 1:13 PM)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Why not? It would mean they have diversified into accepting Asians. @Gyakuto is obviously joking. Get a look at his picture, even Stevie Wonder can see that he won’t be getting in.


Reminds me of a Dave Chappell skit.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Tuesday at 2:07 PM)

Steve said:


> Reminds me of a Dave Chappell skit.


Yep, my thoughts went there immediately.


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## Tony Dismukes (Yesterday at 6:49 AM)

Hyoho said:


> I know not all do Japanese arts on the forum but this might be good read for some. Striving and practicing for these reasons is a good objective. PAGETITLE | SITENAME





Gyakuto said:


> This is a nice synopsis of Budo with statements I’ve seen before such as ‘build character‘ (although I’ve never heard that term defined meaningfully).
> 
> But in my direct experience, high-graded, long time practitioners of Budo display these positive characteristics no more than anyone else in the population. In fact some of the most arrogant, financially corrupt, sometimes violent, misogynistic, racist people I’ve come across have been 6th, 7th and 8th Dan! I really do think it’s a myth that Budo training produces better people anymore than boxing or pottery classes do. If you teach a person of poor character how to use a sword, you will likely get a swordsman of poor character!
> 
> ...


I wrote a bit about this idea in a blog post a while back (link).

TLDR, martial arts absolutely can be a tool which you can use for "character development" or "self-improvement" or whatever label you want to put on it. But ...

It doesn't happen automatically.

It doesn't happen because your teacher offers instruction in some particular set of religious. philosophical, or cultural values or has you recite some sort of official ethical creed.

It happens because you put in the time and effort to figure out how your martial arts practice can apply to making you the person you want to be outside the dojo and then do the hard work of making that transformation. This can take just as much work as refining your techniques in the dojo.

Just like any tool, martial arts practice can be used for positive or negative purposes. That applies to self-transformation as much as the physical application of violence. You become more like the person you are trying to be, so be careful of your goal.

As someone who loves the martial arts, I'm happy to share the lessons I've learned in my training and how I've applied them to my life and becoming more the person that I want to be. But that doesn't mean those are the same lessons that someone else needs to learn or that they have the need or desire to apply those lessons in the same way in their own life.


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## Gerry Seymour (Yesterday at 7:25 AM)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I wrote a bit about this idea in a blog post a while back (link).
> 
> TLDR, martial arts absolutely can be a tool which you can use for "character development" or "self-improvement" or whatever label you want to put on it. But ...
> 
> ...


I'll add to this that MA (and other activities - @Steve makes a good point about this in several threads) can be more likely to develop character traits if they are explicitly focused on by the instructor (in what is rewarded, what is tolerated, and what is discussed). But I don't think most instructors know much about how to do that effectively. 

Just reciting creeds or knowing the definitions of words isn't likely to do much, no matter how much they are used. Just telling people they "should" or "shouldn't" one thing or another probably doesn't go far, on its own.


----------



## Gyakuto (Yesterday at 9:14 AM)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I wrote a bit about this idea in a blog post a while back (link).
> 
> TLDR, martial arts absolutely can be a tool which you can use for "character development" or "self-improvement" or whatever label you want to put on it. But ...
> 
> ...


I’ll attempt to define character building because without that, it’s difficult to debate what the Budo claim to be especially achieving. Character building is improving morally good traits in a person's character, in particular self-reliance, endurance, and courage and may include compassion, being peace-abiding, kindness, generosity of spirit and placing the needs of the many before the needs of the few (or one). Does that sound reasonable?

Thus (Japanese) martial arts are not special in their character-building abilities. I’d suggest these are equally as nurtured in the Boy Scouts, Girl Guides and Free Masonry. But because these institution’s are not being distracted by trying to be combat effective, they can devote more time to these aspects of their training.

I too, love the Japanese martial arts, but suggesting they have a special quality in fostering morality in anyone who practises them is overly simplified.  person who wishes to character build, will do so regardless of the other things they do in life.

My character was forged by my parents, siblings and friends, my academic teachers, Confucian/Greek philosophical ideas and Mr Spock/Captain Picard. The martial arts teachers I’ve had (with the exception of my Kendo Teacher and first Karate teacher) would be _far_ from the ideal people to build a good character.


----------



## Steve (Yesterday at 12:23 PM)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I'll add to this that MA (and other activities - @Steve makes a good point about this in several threads) can be more likely to develop character traits if they are explicitly focused on by the instructor (in what is rewarded, what is tolerated, and what is discussed).



Thabk you for saving others from hearing the chess club lecture. 



Gerry Seymour said:


> But I don't think most instructors know much about how to do that effectively.
> Just reciting creeds or knowing the definitions of words isn't likely to do much, no matter how much they are used. Just telling people they "should" or "shouldn't" one thing or another probably doesn't go far, on its own.



Oh I don’t know.  I think there are more good coaches than bad around. And I’d say it doesn’t require specifically focusing on those things, either.  I think those positive traits are learned as a byproduct of the activity, not as an adjunct to it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Yesterday at 1:05 PM)

Steve said:


> Thabk you for saving others from hearing the chess club lecture.


It's a service I provide. 


Steve said:


> Oh I don’t know.  I think there are more good coaches than bad around. And I’d say it doesn’t require specifically focusing on those things, either.  I think those positive traits are learned as a byproduct of the activity, not as an adjunct to it.


There are certainly attributes that are a byproduct of the activity, itself. Learning to struggle. Learning to learn through failure. Learning to keep going to success. All of those build positive traits. And a coach/instructor who is a good model of communication, humility, etc. will encourage those things without having to teach them.

I guess my point was that there are instructors who think they are actively teaching to develop specific traits, and many of them are not. A good portion of them are helping develop the traits they think they are, but likely not because of the things they think. I think it takes a special person - and specific approaches - to actively teach/develop those traits through philosophy. And I'm not sure I could point to anything that even shows that's reliably possible, at all.


----------

