# About Shoto Tanemura!



## RoninX

Hello!

Anyone knows how documented is his training under the men he received his Menkyos? We have videos, documents and many photos about Hatsumi´s training under Takamatsu, so i´d like to know if there is anything about Tanemura´s training that the general public can check.

Thanks.


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## Brian R. VanCise

While I do not know about checking there is absolutely no doubt that Soke Tanemura is absolutely excellent at what he does. (absolutely excellent) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I have no reason at all to question his training or experience!


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## JadecloudAlchemist

There are people who have trained with both Mr.Tanemura and his teachers I believe Mr.Wright,Mr.Coleman and some others have met them.
There are photos of Mr.Tanemura with the other teachers.

You can check the magazine Amatsu Tatara which has articles and pictures with Tanemura,His Shihan and the students of Takamatsu.


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## RoninX

Brian R. VanCise said:


> While I do not know about checking there is absolutely no doubt that Soke Tanemura is absolutely excellent at what he does. (absolutely excellent)
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> I have no reason at all to question his training or experience!



I agree with you.

You get me wrong; the objective was not question his claims; the objective was find out where i can read more about him and his teachers.


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## RoninX

I respect Shoto Tanemura, but i would respect him even more if it wasn´t fot his:

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?masters


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## JadecloudAlchemist

I am unclear what the problem is on the site you listed.

You can see under Kimura's bio He is in a picture with Tanemura going over a technique.

If you are are looking about strange things about Tanemura you can read about the Dead Ninjutsu school he revived from a voice he heard on an airplane. -Amatsu Tatara magazine

The Grandmaster title he uses for his Bagua.-Ninpo taijutsu vol 1. old edition.

The oddity of selling towels,and baseball hats. Genbukan.org under products.

The many claims of:


> Q. Who was your teacher in Ninpo?
> 
> A. My teacher was Takamatsu Sensei.


-  http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/rapids/1028/sensai1.txt

The allowing of Genbukan teachers with no rank run offical Genbukan dojos charge money to the students who think they are learning from a legit Genbukan teacher.

The claim he moves just like Takamatsu which Ben Cole pointed out on E-Budo that he does not when everyone saw Takamatsu on video.

Genbukan Yoga.

The whole debate about Koryu karate you can read the threads here posted in the karate section.

When you look at things it rises to many red flags IMO. But if you are happy with the training...


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## Troy Wideman

Hello Mr. RoninX,

How can I help you. My name is Troy Wideman and I am the Genbukan Shibu Cho for Canada. I am not sure what you do not respect about my teacher for by posting his web site. You will have to explain. However, Sensei's training is well documented and there is no need to start throwing daggers as some people like to do. Comments about some of the items mentioned can be searched on the internet and you can read all of the different peoples comments about Tanemura Sensei. The only problem is that most of these people have never trained in the organization.
 If you have a question, I will try to answer it. If I can't I will tell you so. 

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Dear Mr. Troy I have trained in your organization both in Japan and in America and have met Mr.Tanemura myself. 

All my comments are taken directly from the Genbukan site or approval from Mr.Tanemura.

Perhaps you can explain the Grandmaster title of Bagua because Mr.Kohler tried to and failed. Mr.Tanemura in I believe the old Ninpo taijutsu manual said he was a grandmaster in Bagua later was the term Denjin presented.
You can read the thread about it here on martialtalk in which the Kanji for Denjin is not correct termology.

Maybe you can explain the rest of my posts on Tanemura's oddity such as the voice he heard on an airplane to bring back a dead Ninja school.

Maybe you can explain Carlos Febres rank and he was listed as a Dojo member on the contact area.

 Maybe you can explain how someone with no rank in one art can teach and charge money in the art and when asked his rank he replies "I am allowed to teach" it seems rather misrepresenting though the person is listed as a Dojo on the Genbukan site.


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## EWBell

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I am unclear what the problem is on the site you listed.
> 
> You can see under Kimura's bio He is in a picture with Tanemura going over a technique.
> 
> If you are are looking about strange things about Tanemura you can read about the Dead Ninjutsu school he revived from a voice he heard on an airplane. -Amatsu Tatara magazine
> 
> The Grandmaster title he uses for his Bagua.-Ninpo taijutsu vol 1. old edition.
> 
> The oddity of selling towels,and baseball hats. Genbukan.org under products.
> 
> The many claims of:
> - http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/rapids/1028/sensai1.txt
> 
> The allowing of Genbukan teachers with no rank run offical Genbukan dojos charge money to the students who think they are learning from a legit Genbukan teacher.
> 
> The claim he moves just like Takamatsu which Ben Cole pointed out on E-Budo that he does not when everyone saw Takamatsu on video.
> 
> Genbukan Yoga.
> 
> The whole debate about Koryu karate you can read the threads here posted in the karate section.
> 
> When you look at things it rises to many red flags IMO. But if you are happy with the training...


 
Sounds like someone has a bit of a problem with Tanemura Soke...

He hasn't revived any dead ninpo school, might have thought about it at THAT time, but you cannot find it listed as a ryu-ha on the Genbukan site.

What's odd about selling hats, towels, and t-shirts?  I mean really...

What exactly is the problem with the geocities site?  Is it because he says Takamatsu Sensei was his ninpo teacher?

Genbukan teachers with no rank running dojo?  Who and where?  All official dojo are listed on the Genbukan website.

When has Tanemura Soke said he moves just like Takamatsu Sensei?  I don't think he moves just like Takamatsu Sensei based on the little bit of footage we have of Takamatsu Sensei.

The yoga is not from Tanemura Soke, but from Gary Giamboi, Kyoshi.  It isn't like it is required study.

I don't see the problem with Koryu Karate other than people think karate the word karate can only be used by Okinawans.  There were legitimate explainations of what the art is and what ryu-ha it comes from.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> He hasn't revived any dead ninpo school, might have thought about it at THAT time, but you cannot find it listed as a ryu-ha on the Genbukan site.


 Please read Amatsu Tatara magazine in which he speaks about taking over Sokeship of a dead Ninja school.



> What's odd about selling hats, towels, and t-shirts?


 I think its weird and someone who wants to make money what does towels and hats and shirts have to do with Budo? What are you disney world or a martial art?



> What exactly is the problem with the geocities site? Is it because he says Takamatsu Sensei was his ninpo teacher?


 Yes he tried to present it as Takamatsu was his teacher.

Who is your teacher? Takamatsu. The answer was not Hatsumi,It was not I met Takamatsu once,It was not Kinbei he said"Takamatsu was my teacher"


> Genbukan teachers with no rank running dojo? Who and where? All official dojo are listed on the Genbukan website.


Mr. Diaz Miami I have a copy of the email sent to me by Mr.Hodges that was orginally from Mr.Tanemura explaining his rank. He is listed as an offical Dojo at the time he did not have offical rank.



> When has Tanemura Soke said he moves just like Takamatsu Sensei? I don't think he moves just like Takamatsu Sensei based on the little bit of footage we have of Takamatsu Sensei.


 I believe it was an article in Black belt magazine. You can read the thread on E-budo or ask I belive Ben Cole who brought it up.



> The yoga is not from Tanemura Soke, but from Gary Giamboi, Kyoshi. It isn't like it is required study.


I know I have trained with Mr. Giamboi I just find it odd to call the Yoga Genbukan yoga and market it as such.



> I don't see the problem with Koryu Karate other than people think karate the word karate can only be used by Okinawans. There were legitimate explainations of what the art is and what ryu-ha it comes from.


 You can look at the threads here. It seems rather misleading to call the art Karate why not just call it Koryu Dakenjutsu why do you have to use the term Karate? Unless again it is marketing ploy.

Are you a student of Mr.Hodges? I trained with him once nice guy.


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## ElfTengu

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Please read Amatsu Tatara magazine in which he speaks about taking over Sokeship of a dead Ninja school.
> 
> I think its weird and someone who wants to make money what does towels and hats and shirts have to do with Budo? What are you disney world or a martial art?
> 
> Yes he tried to present it as Takamatsu was his teacher.
> 
> Who is your teacher? Takamatsu. The answer was not Hatsumi,It was not I met Takamatsu once,It was not Kinbei he said"Takamatsu was my teacher"
> 
> Mr. Diaz Miami I have a copy of the email sent to me by Mr.Hodges that was orginally from Mr.Tanemura explaining his rank. He is listed as an offical Dojo at the time he did not have offical rank.
> 
> I believe it was an article in Black belt magazine. You can read the thread on E-budo or ask I belive Ben Cole who brought it up.
> 
> 
> I know I have trained with Mr. Giamboi I just find it odd to call the Yoga Genbukan yoga and market it as such.
> 
> You can look at the threads here. It seems rather misleading to call the art Karate why not just call it Koryu Dakenjutsu why do you have to use the term Karate? Unless again it is marketing ploy.
> 
> Are you a student of Mr.Hodges? I trained with him once nice guy.


 
It's about time the Genbukan shared some of the flack! lol

I can't comment on any of the above except I was vaguely aware that Takamatsu Sensei sometimes used the term 'karate koppojutsu' and it is unlikely to be a translation error when it is a Japanese word simply being romanised.

At least the Genbukan have some control over merchandise, whereas everyone and their dog flogs tat with Bujin on it. I have seen shot glasses (budo reference?) and skimpy ladies underwear definitely not suitable for training in!

At least you can wipe genuine budo sweat from your brow with a budo towel and train in a budo tshirt, and a hat saying "I do Martial Arts" is a great way to get some practice when the local gorilla sees it and decides to play with you.


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## WesternCiv

> Please read Amatsu Tatara magazine in which he speaks about taking over Sokeship of a dead Ninja school.


 
One thing I like about training in the Genbukan organization is the spiritual component.  I haven't heard, seen or read what you are referring to and if it was said as you report, and is not taken out of context of the rest of the article - I'd have a hard time buying off on it.  I'm a Catholic and I don't buy off on 100% of that doctrine either -  but I still find practicing my religion to be a rewarding experience.



> I think its weird and someone who wants to make money what does towels and hats and shirts have to do with Budo? What are you disney world or a martial art?


 
I'm proud to wear my KJJR t-shirts.  They look good and I'm happy the Genbukan provides me the opportunity to purchase them.



> Genbukan teachers with no rank running dojo? Who and where? All official dojo are listed on the Genbukan website.


 
Without knowing the particulars of your experience I would hope that your's was an isolated incident that has been corrected.  I do not believe that the organization promotes this.

As far as the issues you express over vocabulary - I have no opinion either way.  Unlike a lot of Ninpo enthusiasts the history and lineage is interesting ... but really has no bearing on if I enjoy and propser in my training.  

I like my teacher, enjoy the fellowship, and appreciate learning the skills taught in the Genbukan.  I wish my dojo offered Yoga - thats sounds interesting too.  

Whatever organization you belong to I wish you well in your training.


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## jks9199

It's nice to see how rational and polite this discussion is running... but allow me to remind everyone that MartialTalk has a no fraudbusting policy.  It's OK to discuss disputed issues... but watch that you don't slide out of friendly discussion, huh?


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## EWBell

Jadecloudalchemist,

Yes I am a student of Hodges Sensei, and you are correct in that he is a nice person.

I am aware of what Tanemura Soke said about reviving the dead ninjutsu school.  I am also aware that he does not list it on his list of masterships.  Not really much I can say about it one way or the other, just stating the obvious. 

On the merchandise thing, all organizations do it in some form or another.  Some may sell items like the Genbukan, others may offer videos to show you the feeling of a ryu-ha.  I think Elftengu's examples are pretty funny.

Tanemura Soke has acknowledged Mr. Hatsumi as one of his teachers.  I think Tanemura Soke's view is that since he was training with Mr. Hatsumi at the same time Mr. Hatsumi was under Takamatsu Sensei, then he is one of his teachers.  There could have been other communication between Tanemura Soke and Takamatsu Sensei besides the one meeting.  However, that is just speculation on my part and should be taken as such.

I'll echo WesternCiv's statements on the Mr. Diaz situation.  I don't believe that type of thing is promoted in the Genbukan.  The rules are pretty clear on how a dojo from another organization, or a study group, etc., can join.  

When it comes to Koryu Karate, I still don't see the problem you seem to have.  It states on the Genbukan website that it is not Okinawan Karate, and gives the reason.  What was the Okinawan art called in the original Okinawan language?  Karate is a Japanese word from what I understand, and if Takamatsu Sensei called it karate koppojutsu then I think the argument can be made it is ok to call it that.

Take care,
Eric


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## newtothe dark

I am also enjoying this talk.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> haven't heard, seen or read what you are referring to and if it was said as you report, and is not taken out of context of the rest of the article


 Do you have the Amatsu Tatara magazine?

It has been 7yrs since I have read the article. But it went something like Tanemura was on an airplane heading to Miwaukee he heard a voice telling him to be the founder/resurrect a dead Iga ninja school. He landed and was crying to Mr.Coleman.




> I'm proud to wear my KJJR t-shirts. They look good and I'm happy the Genbukan provides me the opportunity to purchase them.


 If you are happy good for you. IMO I find tshirts,hats,towels,and the like to be a marketing ploy like Disney world rather focus on Budo How many Koryu sensei's are running around selling this on their sites?


> Without knowing the particulars of your experience I would hope that your's was an isolated incident that has been corrected.


 
Well there was Carlos Febres who was listed as a Dojo contact on the Genbukan site he was taken off. I don't know if it has been corrected and I really do not care I wish Mr. Diaz the best of luck he may have legit rank now under Mr.Coleman but at the time in 2003 he was accepting students charging $100 a month and when asked his rank in the Genbukan he said he was allowed to teach. It is a sly stretch of truth.

West I wish you the best in your training as well.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> I am aware of what Tanemura Soke said about reviving the dead ninjutsu school. I am also aware that he does not list it on his list of masterships. Not really much I can say about it one way or the other, just stating the obvious


 I don't know didn't he list one school in the old Ninpo taijust manual and cross it out?
I find it odd to resurrect a dead Ninja school. You know if an American did this he would be flamed to death *Ahem Ashida Kim so why the double standard?



> On the merchandise thing, all organizations do it in some form or another. Some may sell items like the Genbukan, others may offer videos to show you the feeling of a ryu-ha. I think Elftengu's examples are pretty funny.


 Yep and I find it odd as well selling merchadise. I think it crosses the line between Martial arts and marketing for profit. But that is just me.



> Tanemura Soke has acknowledged Mr. Hatsumi as one of his teachers. I think Tanemura Soke's view is that since he was training with Mr. Hatsumi at the same time Mr. Hatsumi was under Takamatsu Sensei, then he is one of his teachers. There could have been other communication between Tanemura Soke and Takamatsu Sensei besides the one meeting. However, that is just speculation on my part and should be taken as such.


 There were many instances and the mannerism Tanemura speaks that it appears that Takamatsu was his teacher. We all know Hatsumi was his teacher but again when Allie asked him who was your teacher and he said Takamatsu it is a misrepresentation. 



> I'll echo WesternCiv's statements on the Mr. Diaz situation. I don't believe that type of thing is promoted in the Genbukan. The rules are pretty clear on how a dojo from another organization, or a study group, etc., can join.


 Ya honorable memeber but charging people $100 and was listed as a Dojo-cho.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> When it comes to Koryu Karate, I still don't see the problem you seem to have. It states on the Genbukan website that it is not Okinawan Karate, and gives the reason. What was the Okinawan art called in the original Okinawan language? Karate is a Japanese word from what I understand, and if Takamatsu Sensei called it karate koppojutsu then I think the argument can be made it is ok to call it that.


 
It can not be called Koryu Karate because as Mr. Kohler said it was put together By Mr. Tanemura so technically it would be a Gendai art.

 It is like calling Aikido Koryu Aikido because it comes from Daito ryu it makes no sense really. Karate is a group term usually associated with arts coming from China and especially coming from Okinawa. I don't know how much of the termology was used as Karate in Japan prior to Edo period because we are presented with other names like Dakenjutsu,Kenpo and so on. But really why use Karate? IMO it is a marketing ploy.

And Mods this is by no means fraud busting this is a discussion on Mr.Tanemura and asking questions concerning his art.


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## Troy Wideman

Hello Mr. Jade Cloud aka: (David Adnresan) at least I think this is your name, I think alot of the people already answered most of the questions quite well.
As I understand it, you trained with Mr. Hodges and when did you travel to Japan to train at the honbu, and how much could you have learned at a low level.
Inrelation to some of your query's; 
1. About the dead ninjutsu school, this was a private conversation between Kyoshi Coleman and Sensei and Kyoshi Coleman answered questions to this on e-budo, so you can search there. If you had problem with it. It was not in the Tatara magazine but in a bufu.
 Oh well, guess you don't have to worry, your not part of our organization.
2. The selling of Hats etc; this is Sensei's perogative, it is his business to run as he sees fit, if you don't like it, don't buy any. Most the items were put there on the request from students to have them available. The towels were given as a gift and the hats sold at the first Japan tai kai. Some of the members requested that they be available for their students so Sensei made them available.
3. Inrelation to Bagua; I don't practise this part of our organization however, Denjin means he received everything from Sato Kinbei Sensei, this has been discussed before and Sensei Sato Kinbei's training history with Li Zi Ming is well documented.
4. Some one with no Rank being allowed to teach. In our organization, as with many, especially chinese systems. A person who is training can start a group and be a group leader, they cannot rank anyone. The students then must attend a Tai Kai or with a licenced instructor to be ranked. Don't see a problem with this but again, you are not part of our org so why is it your problem. 
5. Mr. Febrez; I can not comment on him. I would have to look into it. However, again I say, you are not part of our org so why do you care.

My message was originally for RoninX, not you. You obviously have a hidden agenda and are looking for an arguement. I think these sites have had enough of that. By the way, my name is Troy, you do not have to call me Mr. Troy.
I wish you luck in your Bagua training. I actually trained with Quing Fu Pan for about 5 years, quite a long time ago.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## RoninX

Why can i find Hatsumi in his masters list?
My problem is: If i was a newbie, i´d get the impression that Tanemura NEVER WAS ONE of Hatsumi´s students.

I have one more question: What´s the real difference between Gyokko Ryu Tanemura-Ha, Shinden Fudo Ryu Tanemura-Ha, Koto Ryu Tanemura-Ha(etc) and the original schools? Is this just a way he get to can proclaime himself as a grandmaster of these arts, so he can be at the same level as people like Hatsumi, or this new versions has really something relevant to the art that can´t be found on Hatsumi´s schools? I´m sorry for saying this, but i was allways under the impression that he is trying to replace Hatsumi, and become himself viewed as "The Grandmaster of Ninpo".

This might sound a little disrespectful, but i´m just being honest.
Anyone shares this opinion with me?


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> Hello Mr. Jade Cloud aka: (David Adnresan) at least I think this is your name, I think alot of the people already answered most of the questions quite well.


 Noone answered any questions really well IMO. David Andreasen is my name I have no reason to hide. Who told you Hodges? Giamboi? Diaz? He could not have been Ohno he is no longer in the organization. Was it Kohler tracing ISP's again?





> As I understand it, you trained with Mr. Hodges and when did you travel to Japan to train at the honbu, and how much could you have learned at a low level.
> Inrelation to some of your query's;


 Troy I trained in Soka Dojo under Ohno Shihan in 2002 I was in Tanemura's home dojo I met John,James Wright and other Shihan.
I never claimed to have high rank in the Genbukan or any rank in that matter. So how much could I have learned since starting in the Genbukan in 2002 and leaving it in 2005. Enough to leave it.



> 1. About the dead ninjutsu school, this was a private conversation between Kyoshi Coleman and Sensei and Kyoshi Coleman answered questions to this on e-budo, so you can search there. If you had problem with it. It was not in the Tatara magazine but in a bufu.


 Hey the guy resurrected a dead Ninja school and made himself the head of it. No matter how you try to reason it or justify it it still stands GUY RESURRECTED A DEAD NINJA SCHOOL FROM A VOICE HE HEARD ON AN AIRPLANE.



> 2. The selling of Hats etc; this is Sensei's perogative, it is his business to run as he sees fit, if you don't like it, don't buy any. Most the items were put there on the request from students to have them available. The towels were given as a gift and the hats sold at the first Japan tai kai. Some of the members requested that they be available for their students so Sensei made them available.


 Thats fine he is a business man but IMO and again this is MO I find mixing Budo with Disney selling is a commerical money scheme.



> 3. Inrelation to Bagua; I don't practise this part of our organization however, Denjin means he received everything from Sato Kinbei Sensei, this has been discussed before and Sensei Sato Kinbei's training history with Li Zi Ming is well documented.


 No Mr. Kohler tried to present the Kanji here on this site he does not add up to what he is claiming. You can search the thread. I had my wife who is Japanese check the Kanji and again it is not read that way. Mr. Kohler then tried to change the story as well it is a Chinese way but again in Chinese it does not really mean it and the Japanese do not read it as that.


> 4. Some one with no Rank being allowed to teach. In our organization, as with many, especially chinese systems. A person who is training can start a group and be a group leader, they cannot rank anyone. The students then must attend a Tai Kai or with a licenced instructor to be ranked. Don't see a problem with this but again, you are not part of our org so why is it your problem.


 A training group is different then charging students $100 a month in which they are thinking they are learning from a legit teacher. It is a misrepresentation.


> 5. Mr. Febrez; I can not comment on him. I would have to look into it. However, again I say, you are not part of our org so why do you care.


 I am glady to present this on this site since it is an open discussion on Mr. Tanemura Ronin was asking about Tanemura's teachers I presented things for him to look at.


> My message was originally for RoninX, not you. You obviously have a hidden agenda and are looking for an arguement. I think these sites have had enough of that. By the way, my name is Troy, you do not have to call me Mr. Troy.


 Just sharing my experience when I was a Genbukan member and asking questions that were never answered and still not answered.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

More info about Tanemura from this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49506

From Saru post:



> After 10 mins of google the Genbukan sources would see to indicate the following to the ill informed.
> 
> Not to start a flame war just presenting the info as it is on the websites...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?tanemura1
> 
> Even though Sato sensei taught martial arts to many people, very few (including Tanemura sensei, at first) knew of Dr. Sato's training with Takamatsu sensei. It wasn't until more than a decade later, that Tanemura sensei (after ending his relationship with *another teacher *and starting the Genbukan) rediscovered Sato sensei.
> 
> http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?tanemura2
> 
> Trees and stones were used to develop punching and kicking power, and served to strengthen the hands and feet. He'd punch and strike a tree until his knuckles bleed and his toes were numb. But, *Takamatsu Sensei taught *him a much better way to develop an effective defense.
> 
> http://www.seikadojo.co.uk/sensei_history.htm
> 
> Once *one of his teachers *taught him a much better way to develop a strong strike, his teacher told him that a true martial artist passes by in a crowd unseen.
> 
> http://www.divinehumanity.com/custom/spiritma.html
> 
> Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei
> *One of Tanemura Sensei's teachers*
> 
> http://www.ninpo.co.uk/
> 
> Kikaku was the first martial art name of Grandmaster Takamatsu Sensei (*Grandmaster Tanemuras teacher*), who was the last living combatitive ninja, it is with great pride that we carry this great tradition.
> 
> http://www.genbukan.ca/articles/tanemura_talks.html
> 
> Another is that I still needed to learn from somebody, *still needed a teacher *and Takamatsu Sensei has already passed away.
> 
> http://fugadojo.orgfree.com/pg005.html
> 
> It wasn't until more than a decade later, that Tanemura sensei *(after ending his relationship with another teacher and starting the Genbukan) *rediscovered Sato sensei.
> 
> 
> http://users.skynet.be/chiryaku/eng...er_tanemura.htm
> 
> Some of Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei's teachers :
> 
> * Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei*
>  Sato Kinbei Sensei
>  Kimura Masaji Sensei
>  Fukumoto Yoshio Sensei
>  Kobayashi Masao Sensei
>  Hatsumi Yoshiaki Sensei
>  Seishiro Saito Sensei
>  Nagao Zenyu Sensei
>  Suzuki Sensei
> 
> 
> Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei has done many demonstrations worldwide and taught Ninpo and Ju-Jutsu to FBI agents, policemen, SWAT teams, SAS and other elite-team instructors. *He was the first Grandmaster of Ninpo ever *who left Japan in 1976 to teach in a Western country (USA - Atlanta). He was also the teacher of the first foreigners (Doron Navon, Stephen Hayes, ...) who came to Japan to learn Ninpo in the seventies.
> 
> http://users.skynet.be/chiryaku/eng...r_takamatsu.htm
> 
> He was well known in Japan as a Grandmaster of Ju-Jutsu and Bojutsu but many people were surprised by his death to hear that he was a true Ninja Grandmaster (of 9 schools).
> 
> 
> 
> *He taught *(Takamatsu Sensei)and formed many next generation Grandmasters under which :
> 
>  Kimura Masaharu Sensei
> 
>  Akimoto Fumio Sensei
> 
>  Sato Kinbei Sensei
> 
>  Ueno Takashi Sensei
> 
> * Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei*
> 
>  Fukumoto Yoshio Sensei
> 
>  Hatsumi Yoshiaki Sensei
> 
> 
> http://www.myojo-dojo.com/initial_page.htm
> 
> (under profiles Tanemura Shoto)
> 
> It was a very hard time for the young Grandmaster who received his first Menkyo Kaiden in Shinden Fudo Ryu and Kukishin Ryu at the age of 20 ! *At the age of 15 he started training with Grandmaster Toshitsugu Takamatsu *Sensei. He majored in law at Hosei University and at the age of 22 he became a police officer, later an instructor, at Tokyo's Metropolitan Police Academy.
> 
> 
> 
> I could go on googling but to the uninformed its seems Hatsumi Sensei was never his teacher and certainly indicates Takamatsu Sensei role was more invloved than a meeting of one afternoon.
> 
> All this info comes from Genbukan websites.


----------



## FudoshinDojo

Why can i find Hatsumi in his masters list?
My problem is: If i was a newbie, i´d get the impression that Tanemura NEVER WAS ONE of Hatsumi´s students.>>

Hi there, just FYI, if you were a newbie, you should be concerned with ukemi, sabaki, kamae, and not all the rest, ha ha. that being said there is a public statement that Tanemura Sensei has made in regards to Hatsumi Sensei, located here, for 5-08-07. It pretty much sums everything up:

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?331&ceService_serviceID=1&ceTopic_topicID=1



have one more question: What´s the real difference between Gyokko Ryu Tanemura-Ha, Shinden Fudo Ryu Tanemura-Ha, Koto Ryu Tanemura-Ha(etc) and the original schools? Is this just a way he get to can proclaime himself as a grandmaster of these arts, so he can be at the same level as people like Hatsumi, or this new versions has really something relevant to the art that can´t be found on Hatsumi´s schools? I´m sorry for saying this, but i was allways under the impression that he is trying to replace Hatsumi, and become himself viewed as "The Grandmaster of Ninpo".>>

Well you know friend, everyone has a bias for the group they train with and the same can be said back the other way on many various things. But is it really relevant to our training/ Probably not, just go for the one you enjoy and don't worry about the other.

As far as the ryu-ha you mentioned, many of those Tanemura Sensei was made menkyo kaiden, generally any menkyo kaiden, can ad "ha" to a ryu and make it their particular style and has been in other schoos before, Tanemura Sensei is definately not the first to do that in Japanese budo before. There are minute differences I would say, but then again any teacher from one to the other will have some differences on how something is interpreted.

As far as I am aware, Hatsumi Sensei has never said he the grandmaster of "Ninpo".

They are both grandmasters of various traditions left by Takamatsu Sensei, they both deserve our respect and SILENCE on some matters.

sincerely,
Brian Hodges
Renshi
GWNBF/KJJR
Fudoshin Dojo-Cho


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## JadecloudAlchemist

The thread about Denjin title that Tanemura uses:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73063&highlight=denjin&page=2

George started with this:


> says 5th "*denjin*" (&#20253;&#20154 which translates roughly as "lineage holder


 
From me:





> However I can not find the term *Denjin* in any Kanji dictionary. Den meaning passing on and Jin meaning person. Lineage is kakei. The term *Denjin* means more like passenger or something


 
George then says:


> The reason you can't find the word "denshin" in a Japanese dictionary is because it is not a Japanese word per se


and goes on:


> The Chinese pronounces it as 'chuanren' and they use alternate characters (&#20659;&#20154; or &#20256;&#20154 and can be found in a Chinese dictionary


As I have said


> &#20659;&#20154; or &#20256;&#20154; Pronounced as Fu jin if the Kanji is typed in a Japanese translator.
> 
> But this Kanji is not used as *Denjin* or for the meaning of *Denjin*.
> 
> Quote:


 
and again me saying:



> &#20256;&#35805;&#20154; Here is the Hanzi for Chuan hua ren but this translates as messenger same as *Denjin* kinda of translates and not as Grandmaster or linerage holder


 
Now everything I have presented I have backed up with references.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Brian Hodges nice to see you again. I find it interesting to post again after not posting for almost 2 years.

Hope everything is good with you.


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## FudoshinDojo

Brian Hodges nice to see you again. I find it interesting to post again after not posting for almost 2 years.

Hope everything is good with you. Today 03:58 PM>>

Doing well, thanks, check your e-mail if possible. Yeah I usually make it a practice not to, but.......


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## RoninX

> Hi there, just FYI, if you were a newbie, you should be concerned with ukemi, sabaki, kamae, and not all the rest, ha ha. that being said there is a public statement that Tanemura Sensei has made in regards to Hatsumi Sensei, located here, for 5-08-07. It pretty much sums everything up:
> 
> http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site...opic_topicID=1



If i WERE a newbie, i should be concerned in knowing the people and the ORg. Or, pheraps, i shouldn´t pay attention on who am i gonna train under? Hm...doesn´t make much sense to me. 



> As far as the ryu-ha you mentioned, many of those Tanemura Sensei was made menkyo kaiden, generally any menkyo kaiden, can ad "ha" to a ryu and make it their particular style and has been in other schoos before,



Yes, they can. But i´m just wondering about the reasons. He could very well just proclaim to be MENKYO KAIDEN. But it seems that he wants to be the SOKE; like Hatsumi is. He isn´t happy with a "sconde place"; He HAS to be the Soke of those god damn traditions!  He doesn´t want to be seen as the former student of the TRUE SOKE; He WANTS to be the SOKE! Being Menkyo Kaiden? That´s just not good enough for him! HE WANTS THE SOKESHIP! 

I wonder why Manaka didn´t the same thing. Maybe is happy with being a former student student of Hatsumi, who is "just" a Menkyo Kaiden. It seems that he doesn´t need to invent Sokeships, in order to be at the same "level" of Hatsumi.
http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?331&ceService_serviceID=1&ceTopic_topicID=1


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## Bruno@MT

I just spent a full hour and a half on kaiten practise. I _know _I am going to hurt tomorrow. It was really intense. What does that have to do with this discussion? Nothing of course.

I could have spent time here arguing about who said / did what to someone I don't know in a language I don't know in a culture I don't know in a context I don't know, but I figured that actual hard work would be more productive.

I've done my research and I read about all the things mentioned so far. Discussions like this won't change anything, and only waste time. I am convinced that Tanemura sensei received menkyo kaiden in his arts, and that is all that matters to me.

If you believe that Tanemura sensei received menkyo kaiden, then train.
If you don't believe it, then don't train.
All the rest is politics.


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## Troy Wideman

Hello Jade Cloud or David,

I am just trying to remember who you are. Did you train with Ohno-san and if I remember you got up to the rank of 8th kyu. I believed you also met Renshi Hodges as well. I am a little surprised because I spoke with Brian and Shihan Wright and they said you seemed like a nice guy.
 Just to make sure I have the right guy, you are dark skinned and about 120lbs, skinny, 5 '6", I don't say that to be rude, just trying to figure out if I got the right guy.
 I find it a little disappointing that you would be so disrespectful to your previous teacher Ohno-san and Mr. Hodges who took care of you one day. I am not sure what your sour grapes are inregards to Filiax but I know for a fact Mr. Hodges treated you with respect. I think you should give him some in return.
 I wish you luck in your training or what ever art you are studying at the moment.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> Just to make sure I have the right guy, you are dark skinned and about 120lbs, skinny, 5 '6",


 Nope. 5'7 170 white blue eyes blond hair.


> I find it a little disappointing that you would be so disrespectful to your previous teacher Ohno-san and Mr. Hodges who took care of you one day. I am not sure what your sour grapes are inregards to Filiax but I know for a fact Mr. Hodges treated you with respect. I think you should give him some in return.


 Troy where have I have been disrespective to Ohno and Brian?

I said to Brian hope everything is good with you.

I do find it interesting and odd that Brian posted now after 2yrs but hey thats just me.

Sour Grapes not really. Just sharing information.

Bruno if you are happy with your art then more power to you I felt the same way when I was in the Genbukan but as you can see to many questions that do not really get answered and to many oddities has me on another journey. I am only sharing information I have found and my experience it is up to the individual to make up their mind what they want to do.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Ronin to address your post he did use the title Menkyo kaiden or master been many years I believe in the older Ninpo Taijutsu manual he has since then changed it to Tanemura-ha.

Here is the claim of Master:



> Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu 27th Master
> Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu 22nd Master
> Togakure Ryu Ninpo 35th Master
> Koto Ryu Ninpo Koppojutsu 20th Master
> Kijin Chosui Ryu Dakentaijutsu 41st Master
> Itten Ryushin Chukai Ryu Jujutsu 3rd Master
> Araki Shin Ryu 18th Master
> Yagyu Shingan Ryu Kaccyu Yawara Master
> BACK


And now: 





> Shinden Fudo Ryu Daken-Taijutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke Kukishinden Happo Biken-Jutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke Togakure Ryu Ninpo Tanemura-Ha - Soke Gyokko Ryu Kosshi-Jutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke Koto Ryu Koppo-Jutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke


http://www.kijindojo.co.uk/kijindojo/Grandmaster.aspx

A list of his ranks.


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## FudoshinDojo

Jade posted:


<<I do find it interesting and odd that Brian posted now after 2yrs but hey thats just me.>>

Yes, as I said earlier, I don't post, but I do lurk quite a bit LOL!! This just happened to pertain the the Genbukan is the only reason I posted.


RoninX posted

<<If i WERE a newbie, i should be concerned in knowing the people and the ORg. Or, pheraps, i shouldn´t pay attention on who am i gonna train under? Hm...doesn´t make much sense to me.>>

Well, I still think people should practice more in the dojo than on the internet thats all I'me saying. Besides the link I gave you shows the entire history of his relationship with Mr. Hatsumi. Is there any official statement in the Bujinkan for "newbies" that can tell them the relation of the Genbukan to the bujinkan or who Tanemura sensei is? 


Ronin posted

<< wondering about the reasons. He could very well just proclaim to be MENKYO KAIDEN. But it seems that he wants to be the SOKE; like Hatsumi is. He isn´t happy with a "sconde place"; He HAS to be the Soke of those god damn traditions! He doesn´t want to be seen as the former student of the TRUE SOKE; He WANTS to be the SOKE! Being Menkyo Kaiden? That´s just not good enough for him! HE WANTS THE SOKESHIP! >>

Its not necessary for you to curse to get your point across, i am really trying to discuss this on a civil level. Much of what you said is just what you think and not is fact, thats your perogative but it doesn't make it true. Menkyo Kaiden is not "second place"

 People living in glass houses should not throw stones 

Ronin posted


wonder why Manaka didn´t the same thing. Maybe is happy with being a former student student of Hatsumi, who is "just" a Menkyo Kaiden. It seems that he doesn´t need to invent Sokeships, in order to be at the same "level" of Hatsumi.>>

Its not really nice to pull others into this conversation such as Manaka Unsui and the Jinenkan to use an example to get your point across. Manaka unsui is a gentleman and the org top notch, but with all due respect, he and Tanemura Sensei are two completely different people, with two different ways of doing things that both left the bujinkan on different terms. Hatsumi Sensei was Manaka Sensei's only teacher. 

Tanemura Sensei has trained with Kimura and Sato Sensei as well as others and received Sokeships, etc, this is common knowledge as you already know. Also there is no big secret that Tanemura Sensei and Hatsumi Sensei parted without a handshake for sure and the circumstances were not exactly positive from both viewpoints.

In reality none of the Kanchos of the orgs are sitting around talking about this sort of stuff, its just people on keyboards, people become ill mannered when they touch keys sometimes, not sure why that is. 

All of the X-Kan community has alot more similarities than differences and we should recognize that instead of slagging on each other.

sincerely,
Brian Hodges
Renshi
GWNBF/KJJR
Fudoshin Dojo-Cho


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## Yugen

This is my experience:

I think it is important to point out that for us in the Genbukan, much of this is about relationships. And this all starts with trust. Once trust is established, a world opens up which allows us to learn this art. Then much will be understood. Because everything has a reason and a time. 

Look at the Genbukan rules and check the way our line of communication is structured. Even if you spend time with the Grandmaster, and share candid moments with high level people, it doesn't mean that all will be revealed to you. Again, everything has a reason and a time.

RoninX, it is not fair of you to make the accusations you make in your most recent post. It is the same with people making comparisons of Genbukan with the other organizations assuming that they are somewhat the same, and they're not. To learn about the Genbukan requires a different attitude. Nothing is really being covered up, but what info goes out depends a little on the attitude of the person and his/her reasons for asking the questions. 

As for merch. To me, the symbols of our organization have a very special meaning. And like others have said, they are worn because we appreciate their significance. So to compare it with "disney" is silly.

One thing that has so far been left out of the discussion, something which I have always felt when it comes to Tanemura Soke, is that he has a very clear vision for what he does. Thus the Genbukan is structured the way it is. There might not be 10.000 sites out there, or videos all over the web, but our dojos and Soke's high level instructors are available and quite open to everyone. Their contact details are on the honbu site!

One thing that is nice about the Genbukan is that we are lead to the realization in ourselves of the importance of kihon, physically and ethically. In the end, the teaching is about what *you do* to become a better person, and fellow human being. It is not the transmission of arcane knowledge, but martial virtues that counts here. It's about you, your life, and your future. 

- Bard


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## JadecloudAlchemist

The questions are not being really answered they are being skipped around with Ad Hominem on we should not ask these type of questions and focus on training and Ad Nauseum on how Tanemura has this great vision it sounds rather sheepish and cultish IMO.

Why resurrect a dead ninja ryuha and make yourself the head master of it? Why is Mr.Tanemura allowed to do this and not say Ashida Kim?
Noone but me finds it odd a man hearing voices to resurrect a dead ninja school?

The point of mentioning the clothes and towels seems like Disney to me.
It seems like a ploy to make extra cash. It is what it is. IMO and this is MO I think its odd.

As Ronin said it is a little strange to go from master one year to renaming yourself Soke later. So yes people will question it because it seems odd.

I still can't get a straight answer on the Denjin title.

Looking at what I posted about Takamatsu and Takamatsu is in the Master's list why isn't Hatsumi listed it is a good question.

So yes there are many questions that are in a way being dipped around with answers that are not insightful or Ad Hominem.
The comment concerning Mr. Coleman and Tanemura about the dead Ninja school on E-Budo I am the one Pacman2323 who brought up that topic and Mr.Coleman still could not respond in a manner convincing that it is ok to create it. 

Also noone ever answered the question how can a modern art woven together be considered Koryu like Koryu Karate?

It is quite alot of questions that strike me odd that noone has really answered or can not answer.


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## Troy Wideman

Hello David,
Sorry, I guess I got you mixed up with someone else. I have spoke with both Shihan Wright and Mr. Hodges. Mr. Hodges spoke kindly about you when I inquired. I do not need to trace your IP address. I was just curious as to who I was dealing with. If you trained in our org I wanted to know what experience level I was dealing with. I found out your were around 8th kyu so that gives me an idea.

As I said, you are not part of the org, so it is really none of your business. When you were part of the org, why did you not ask Tanemura Sensei himself, since you were in Japan.
As in all your points you have stated, IMO, you are correct it is your opinion. You were only 8th kyu in the org and would not be privy to alot of information.
Inrelation to Mr. Feliax, you obviously have a beef with him and chose not to train with him, that is great. It is irrelevant what he is charging, he charges what he thinks he needs to survive as a business. I am not defending him because I have never met him, just stating fact. If you have never run a club you have no idea how expensive it is to run. Same as if Tanemura sensei decides to charge for towels, he is running a business as well as teaching the martial arts. If you do not like the towels, don't buy them. If you decide to run some type of business one day you will understand this, if you run one already, I have no idea why it is even brought up.
I answered what Denjin meant, if you were not happy with it, Oh well. What else can I say. Tanemura Sensei, trained with Sato Kinbei Sensei and received the BaQua and other chinese arts, no more debate is needed. Again, you are not part of our org, so what do you care. Go train in another organization.
Inrelation to the dead ninja ryu, it did not get formed so we are again talking about a mute point. Nothing came of it.
Inrelation to Tanemura Sensei saying Tanemura Ha after the ryu ha name, he is in his rights to do this as a Menkyo Kaiden holder. Menkyo Kaiden means he has mastered the system, when you add your name you are making it your line. This is done in all kinds of other koryu, so why is it a problem. For example Ohno ha itto ryu kenjutsu. We as genbukan members are honoured and have alot of pride to train in our teachers line.
Inrelation to Tanemura Sensei not listing Hatsumi's name, this again is Tanemura sensei's priviledge, if he wants to he can, if not, why is it any of your business. It is well documented that Tanemura Sensei trained with Hatsumi and he never hides this fact to his students. You should know this being a previous member of the Genbukan as you say.
Inrelation to the Koryu Karate, it is made up of Tenshin Ryu Kempo and Kijin Chosui ryu Daken Tai jutsu and with elements of chinese martial arts. Sensei, has never tried to hide what he made it up from. He choose to call it Koryu Karate again that is his priviledge and perogative. If you don't like it, don't train in it.

Last but not least, why do you ask these questions on an open forum other than to cause problems and arguements. If you had a concern you could have asked Sensei himself when you were in Japan.

I wish you luck in what ever you do. If you are ever in Canada, feel free to look me up. As Mr. Hodges did I would take you out for a bite to eat and we could discuss matters. All the best.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> As I said, you are not part of the org, so it is really none of your business.


 An open forum it is posted on the internet it becomes public knowledge thus making it everyones business as soon as it published either in book or on a website.



> why did you not ask Tanemura Sensei himself, since you were in Japan


 That was way back in 2002 I did not know anything really about the organization until I digged into it. Hence why I left.



> You were only 8th kyu in the org and would not be privy to alot of information.


 All the info is posted on the web and most of it is either 1.In material published by Tanemura,approved by Tanemura or on the Genbukan site. 



> Mr. Feliax, you obviously have a beef with him and chose not to train with him


 Nope. I stated orginally a teacher in the organization when asked who I said the name. I have no beef with anyone.


> If you have never run a club you have no idea how expensive it is to run.


 The point was not how expensive a club is the point was charging students who think they are getting legit teachings from a ranked teacher. The point was charging someone $100 for lessons when you yourself are not ranked seems fishy.



> I answered what Denjin meant,


 And you either 1.can not read Kanji or 2. really do not know what it means. Check the Kanji or better yet I already explained what Denjin I asked George to explain it after I and my wife a native Japanese said it means otherwise you can also use a Kanji dictionary to see it does not really mean what you say.



> so what do you care.


 Why do you care that I care?



> Inrelation to the dead ninja ryu, it did not get formed so we are again talking about a mute point. Nothing came of it.


 Um the point is the guy heard a voice to recreate a dead Ninja school and made it public access I think those in the Japanese arts or those thinking of joining the Genbukan might want to be aware of that.



> Inrelation to Tanemura Sensei saying Tanemura Ha after the ryu ha name, he is in his rights to do this as a Menkyo Kaiden holder. Menkyo Kaiden means he has mastered the system, when you add your name you are making it your line.


 Yes I know what Menkyo Kaiden means. However when using the term master first and then changing it to Soke it might be odd to people who do not know the difference and people who may want to join the Genbukan should have the right to know.



> Inrelation to Tanemura Sensei not listing Hatsumi's name, this again is Tanemura sensei's priviledge,


 Fair enough but look at all the links posted from Saru who did a 10 min goggle search you can see Hatsumi does not really appear and it kinda of plays the I learned from Takamatsu. Also When Allie questioned who is your teacher why would the answer be Takamatsu and not Hatsumi or any other teacher? Just strange.


> Inrelation to the Koryu Karate, it is made up of Tenshin Ryu Kempo and Kijin Chosui ryu Daken Tai jutsu and with elements of chinese martial arts. Sensei, has never tried to hide what he made it up from. He choose to call it Koryu Karate again that is his priviledge and


 
Yea but its like calling Aikido Koryu Aikido because it comes from Daito ryu
How are you going to call a Gendai created mixed art Koryu?


> Last but not least, why do you ask these questions on an open forum other than to cause problems and arguements. If you had a concern you could have asked Sensei himself when you were in Japan.


 
Public has a right to know Public asked questions concerning Tanemura.
 Don't get angry with me because I asked questions that you either 1.refuse to admit 2. rather not ask yourself. 

What do you care what I say unless there is some truth to what I say?
 I have backed up my claims with post from websites,posted references,emails and the like If I am wrong I welcome you to show me.


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## FudoshinDojo

Hmm, on a positive note. In this link it shows a pic of Sato Sensei and Tanemura Sensei, at the bottom of the page it shows Tanemura Sensei's certificate from Sato Sensei/ and Li Zu Ming, maybe someone can translate.


http://www.genbukanbudo.co.za/Chinese%20Kenpo.html


sincerely,
Brian Hodges
Renshi
GWNBF/KJJR
Fudoshin Dojo-Cho


----------



## Chris Parker

Hi,

Just to chime in here, I am not a member of the Genbukan, Bujinkan, or Jinenkan, so I have no real investment in one organisation or another... but a couple of things have stood out to me.

To preface, I have a great deal of respect for Tanemura Sensei, as well as the senior members/instructors of the Genbukan (and other organisations), so hopefully that will be taken into account here.

With Tanemura Sensei "hearing a voice on a plane and resurrecting a dead ninjutsu school", we are talking about the Hakuun Ryu here. The Hakuun Ryu is one of the basis arts for Togakure Ryu (and therefore, by extension, Kumogakure Ryu), Gyokko Ryu (and by extension, Gikan Ryu and Gyokushin Ryu), and heavily influenced Koto Ryu (through Gyokko Ryu). I feel that Tanemura Sensei felt that as these various arts were founded in, or influenced by Hakuun Ryu, then the material was there to resurrect the art, at least in principle. This is not too dissimilar to Takamatsu Sensei taking the disparate branches of Kukishin Ryu as they found their way to him, and aiding in the re-creation of Tenshin Hyoho Kukishinden Ryu.

As for why he can do it, and not Ashida Kim, well, Kim doesn't have any link to authentic Ninjutsu in any guise (as far as I know), whereas Tanemura Sensei was looking to the arts he had already mastered. So there is a large difference in the credibility of the two mentioned individuals. This does not mean, however, that I feel it was a credible method of acting, but I will say that the creation of a Martial Art after a message from Heaven is far from a rarity in the history of Japanese traditions.

For a while, Hakuun Ryu was listed as one of the arts that went into the make up of the Genbukan Ninpo Bugei syllabus, but I note that it has (and Wideman Sensei said) been removed, and is no longer an issue (if it was). However, I would ask if it has simply been renamed as Iga Ryu, which does appear?

I feel that the debate between Jadecloud and Kohler Sensei covered the Bagua aspect as thoroughly as it is going to be, so I have nothing to add to that. 

The only other part of this particular debate I would enter into is the question of who is claimed as Tanemura Sensei's teacher. Indeed, I have read and heard Tanemura Sensei say a number of times that his teacher in Ninpo was Takamatsu Sensei, with Hatsumi Sensei not being mentioned at all. In each and every occassion, the term "another teacher" or similar was used. Then, I think about a year or so ago, maybe a bit longer, a message was posted on the Genbukan website giving a bit of the story, and claiming Hatsumi Sensei as Tanemura's teacher.

This doesn't change the fact that all other sources claim that Tanemura Sensei only actually met Takamatsu Sensei on one single occassion, so he couldn't have learnt all his Ninpo from Takamatsu. I would venture the idea that Tanemura is being more figurative than literal here, saying that all his Ninpo knowledge comes from Takamatsu Sensei, whether via Hatsumi Sensei, Sato Sensei, Kimura Sensei etc, and could possibly have originated from a less-than-perfect command of English many years ago.

I would also suggest that those who still feel the lists provided earlier (in the "10 minute google search") doesn't include Hatsumi Sensei may want to look a little closer. At least two of those lists include the name Hatsumi Yoshiaki Sensei. As I'm sure Jadecloud can attest, the first character in the name Yoshiaki (yoshi) can also be read as Masa, giving the name the pronouncement of Masaaki. The story that I heard was that Takamatsu Sensei pulled the young Hatsumi Yoshiaki aside at one point, and said to him that throughout Japanese history, people with the syllable "Yoshi" in their given name have met with bad ends, specifically people such as Minamoto Yoshimitsu, so he should use the alternate pronunciation from then on. So basically, Hatsumi Yoshiaki is Hatsumi Masaaki. He is there.

Hope I haven't upset anyone, just my take on things.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> With Tanemura Sensei "hearing a voice on a plane and resurrecting a dead ninjutsu school", we are talking about the Hakuun Ryu here


 Yes that is the school. 



> then the material was there to resurrect the art, at least in principle.


 Its a stretch but I suppose you can resurrect a dead art based on its modern techniques. But its kinda of like taking Aikido techniques and principles and then creating Daito ryu.

It is possible he meant Takamatsu figurativlely but the mannerism in the way he talks about Takamatsu seems to suggest otherwise. The Mannerism of placing Takamatsu on the Masters area and not Hatsumi,The visits to Takamatsu wife,The vists to the grave suggest more of wanting to belong or get as close to Takamatsu. 

The Genbukan site http://www.genbukanbudo.co.za/Chinese%20Kenpo.html

Raises alot of questions.


> Li Zu Ming Sensei and Wang Shu Jin Sensei were both brought over to teach in the "land of the rising sun


 
Wang Shu Jin was living in Japan in 1959. He was working and teaching students not just Sato Kinbei but many others.
Same as Li Zi Ming taught many students there is a video of Li Zi Ming teaching students with Sato Kinbei watching.

Here are pictures of another of Li Zi Ming diciples
http://www.geocities.com/ong_mingthong/photo2.html



> Martial arts, Hsing I Chuan, Ba Ji Chuan, Ba Gua Zhang, Chen Pan-Ling Tai Chi Chuan, White Crane, and Fu Jian Province Shaolin Golden Hawk, combining them with Bagua into the Chugoku kenpo system he teaches


 Really because when I asked Mr.Coleman about if Mr.Tanemura learned these arts he said"everything is listed on the Genbukan.org site"This was on the Genbukan.org forum. When I also asked what style of Bagua did Mr.Tanemura learned noone really knew.
Li Zi Ming which is his name and also his style was very big on Liang style.
He is known within the Liang style for the 2 man set which the Genbukan does. Who was Tanemura's Taiji teacher? I am assuming the Xingyi comes from Wang's linerage. There is no mention on it on the Genbukan.org site


> Tanemura Sensei's teaching include: Hakkesho (Ba Gua), Kiko (Imperial Qi Gong), Kinnajutsu (Chin-na


 


> Grandmasters Li Zi Ming and Wang Shu-chin held the Martial Arts of Japan in very high regard and also studied Ju Jutsu and Aiki Jutsu in exchange for teaching Bagua to Grandmaster Sato Kinbei.


 
Kent Howard,Vincent Black were students of Wang shu Jin and Li Zi Ming there is no mention of either of these masters studing Jujutsu and Aikijutsu. Is it possible that Kinbei shared ideas of Jujutsu and Aikijutsu yes but it is doubtful that they taught Bagua and Xingyi for exchage for Jujutsu and Aikijutsu.

Mr.Coleman also said not to compare Jujutsu.com to Genbukan.org when asked about the arts Mr.Tanemura learned from Kinbei. "Everything Tanemura learned from Kinbei is listed on the Genbukan.org site" However if we look at Jujutsu.com we know Mr.Kinbei learned other arts are we to believe that Mr.Tanemura learned the arts of Xingyi,Taiji and other Chinese arts as said on the one Genbukan site Genbukanbudo.  or are we to believe that everything is listed on the Genbukan.org site?


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## Chris Parker

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Its a stretch but I suppose you can resurrect a dead art based on its modern techniques. But its kinda of like taking Aikido techniques and principles and then creating Daito ryu.
> 
> It is possible he meant Takamatsu figurativlely but the mannerism in the way he talks about Takamatsu seems to suggest otherwise. The Mannerism of placing Takamatsu on the Masters area and not Hatsumi,The visits to Takamatsu wife,The vists to the grave suggest more of wanting to belong or get as close to Takamatsu.


 

Hi, Jadecloud,

Yeah, I agree it's a stretch, but I also don't think it's unique within martial arts. This kind of reverse-engineering happens occassionally, with arts such as Enshin Ryu (Honmon Enshin Ryu and Koden Enshin Ryu), and Katayama Hoki Ryu.

I'm again not particularly shocked by Tanemura Sensei distancing himself from Hatsumi Sensei, and attempting to create a greater association with Takamatsu Sensei, as from all accounts it was quite a negative falling out between the two. The visiting of Takamatsu's wife, from the stories I have come across, involve him visiting to ask her permission to continue her husbands work, teaching the arts he taught. From most accounts, she replied "Do what you want", which was taken as a yes. This is not the only version I have heard, but it is the most common/persistant.

With the Chinese systems, I have reached the limits of my knowledge, I'll let others comment (to support or debate) on these grounds.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Chris 

It should be allowed for others to see and let them make up their minds aout the Genbukan. I am only presenting things that I find odd or things I always questioned. Alot of answers I recieve from Genbukan teachers seems to put Tanemura on a pedestal and make up excuses and such then rather question certain things.

Here is something interesting on Wang Shu Jin:

http://www.kempojutsu.net/page6/page11/page15/page15.html

Interesting notes are :


> That Wang Shu Jin did live with a Mr. Kohno and Wang did appoint him as a 4th generation disciple as well.


There are actually quite alot of 4th generation disciple of Wang:Kent Howard,Christopher Kasey just to name two.
Li Zi Ming also has many generation disciple and I do not see them using the term Denjin as a reference to their title.
 Concerning the title of Denjin I emailed Mr. Black who Li Zi Ming appointed as President of the U.S. branch if anyone else was given title Denjin.


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## Chris Parker

Yeah, I'm always all for open, public debate, so I've got no problem with this at all. As I said, I'm not finding anything that leaps out as completely out of place, although I don't place anyone on a pedestal. My teacher, who I have nothing but respect and admiration for, is just a man. So is Tanemura Sensei, so is Hatsumi Sensei, so was Takamatsu Sensei. I have huge respect for these people, but I never lose sight of the humanity inherent in each of them (and, of course, myself).


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Chris 
It is true it not completely out of place there does seem to be a shift though. :uhyeah:

Maybe if the Genbukan teachers were more open with the questions instead of the hush hush,go train,not part of our organization deal I can cut em' some slack but when people start answering in that fashion it rises more suspectful behavior.

But for me there are to many questions,to many oddities(even if they are not completely out of place) to much hush hush,dare I say to many sokeship and Menkyo titles then a plumber has pliers.


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## Bruno@MT

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Maybe if the Genbukan teachers were more open with the questions instead of the hush hush,go train,not part of our organization deal I can cut em' some slack but when people start answering in that fashion it rises more suspectful behavior.
> 
> But for me there are to many questions,to many oddities(even if they are not completely out of place) to much hush hush,dare I say to many sokeship and Menkyo titles then a plumber has pliers.



Hi, I don't know if the former remark included me or not, but just in case...
It's not that I don't want to talk about it, but honestly there is nothing useful I can say.

All of this happened when I was still in kindergarten.
I don't speak Japanese and I don't know the culture very well, though I do know enough of it to know that westerners discussion this issue is like fish discussing birds.

And this goes for vitrually all people who discuss this issue. The only people who know more of it are the handful of high level practisioners like Troy. And even they don't know Tanemura sensei and Hatsumi sensei that well that they know everything that happened between them and in the history of their respective organizations.

So for newbies like me, it all comes down to the question :did Tanemura sensei receive menkyo kaiden in the arts he teaches. Because that validates his MA lineage. The rest is all politics and about interpretation.

In my case, I am convinced that the answer is yes. So with that out of the way, all that is left now is to train and ignore all the inter Xkan politics.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Bruno the comment does not really refer to you. It actually refers to Higher up teachers. We are talking about 4dan and up.



> I don't speak Japanese and I don't know the culture very well, though I do know enough of it to know that westerners discussion this issue is like fish discussing birds.


 Depends on the age of the Japanese. My motherin law and Wife have both spoke to Mr.Tanemura in Japan they find his mannerism to be a crafty businessman more than the charismatic Budo master which is their impression of him.



> did Tanemura sensei receive menkyo kaiden in the arts he teaches. Because that validates his MA lineage.


 So he says. The only ones I can question is the Hakkun ryu that was resurrected,Denjin as a title,Koryu Karate(created in Gendai era)passing it as a Koryu art. Though these things may true it is somewhat embellishing and stretching of this truth.


> In my case, I am convinced that the answer is yes. So with that out of the way, all that is left now is to train and ignore all the inter Xkan politics.


 There may be people who would like to know these things maybe they themselves have questions like this before they part ways with their money and time.People can read these posts and draw their own conclusions towards Mr.Tanemura and the Genbukan this was never an attempt to Fraud bust it is an attempt to bring things to light in order to understand the Genbukan and Mr.Tanemura.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

On the note of what Chris said about other schools resurrecting dead schools based on modern techniques. We know Kaneko ryu is a dead school,However because Tomoharu Kaneko was a soke of Togakure and my wife who trained with Ohno Shihan(Genbukan Soka Dojo in Japan) by this logic Mrs. Kaneko can resurrect the Kaneko ryu and use the families Kamon to futher illustrate linerage. All she has to do is "Hear a voice" 

Now If She did this and posted it on a website I can guarantee she will get flack from quite alot of people so why the double standard?

Back on point: If you are a student and found a Shotokan dojo listed on the Shotokan's main site you went to the teacher he is not familar with the termology, nor the Shotokan techniques he tells you he is given permission to teach but you find out he holds the same rank as you(no rank) and is ranked in Judo would you still want to learn Shotokan from him and pay him $100 a month for this? Do you find anything misleading in this at all?

Back on point: Using a title that makes very little sense does it not raise the eye brow and make you wonder. 

Does it make you wonder if one site is claimed as the offical site and is said to list all things the master learned but his teacher learned more is it wrong to ask if he learned those things as well?

Back on point: If someting is created in modern times how can it be considered old? How can Aikido which is Gendai which is created in the 20th century be considered Koryu? By this same logic how can The Koryu karate created by Mr.Tanemura be considered Koryu if it was created in a Gendai period?


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## JadecloudAlchemist

http://www.genbukanbudo.co.za/Chinese%20Kenpo.html

On the site it says:



> *Ming's hand writing and personal seal, *


 
However what it says is
Shoto Tanemura 5th Generation Denjin Hakkesho,Sensei Sato Kinbei 

Why is it so wrinkled if it is a Certificate?

I don't think it is Li Zi Ming's writing I think Sato Kinbei wrote this.

The site further goes into the whole grandmastership which is not true. Linerage holder fine But do not try to pass it off as Grandmaster when others have been trained in Bagua under Li Zi Ming and Wang shu Jin and those who have also 5th generation practicers who trained under Wang such as Kent Howard who by the way wrote a book on Wang and Vincent Black who Li Zi Ming appointed to represent the North American branch.
I am waiting for Mr. Black's email concerning if Li Zi Ming ever used the term Denjin when giving certificates I emailed Kent to check the Genbukan site and Jujutsu.com to give more information about Wang Shu Jin,Sato Kinbei and Shoto Tanemura to see if he can answer some of the questions concerning the training and if any certificates were issued.


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## FudoshinDojo

Hi "Jade",
Your questions are quite interesting indeed and I would not mind going through them point by point, however I will say that you seem to have your mind already made up. 

I thought you were an extremely nice person when meeting you in real life, with that being said, I can't say that I agree with the way you are going about questioning. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying asking questions are bad.

All of the instructors are going off of what Soke has either said or published or told them personally. I think most of the instructors you have spoken with have tried there best to answer you questions but have been insufficient for you(because they don't know),  noone is trying to hide anything from you, I simply believe noone has the answers you want except for people inside of Japan withing the Genbukan or even Soke himself. 

Might I suggest e-mailing Roy Ron Shihan, his e-mail can be obtained from the Genbukan website, I can assure you he will return your e-mail and answer your questions. Tanemura Soke is quite busy these days, so e-mailing honbu might not be the best route.

Once again, the manner in which you have gone about this, dare I say crusade, I can't agree with....there is nothing wrong with your questions, you have to just get to the people who really know and there even could be some "choice" on Soke's part to interpet things a certain way you know. Which would lead you to still maybe a difference in opinion, which is life.

Good luck in your Bagua training and in life in general.


sincerely,
Brian Hodges
Renshi
GWNBF/KJJR
Fudoshin Dojo-Cho


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## Troy Wideman

HI David,

If you left, why look back. I wish you luck.

Inregards to the baqua certificate, there were two types of scrolls, folded and rolled.
 However, is your wife now translating chinese. I am curious, is your wife a professional translator? Look the english language has thousands of words and I do not profess to know or understand all of them. If you were in Japan, you would know that kanji can be read many different ways. It is also a skill that is being lost amongst the japanese. Martial kanji are even harder to read. Some of the scrolls possessed by Tanemura sensei get passed on around 8th dan and it takes months to translate. A professional translator can barely translate it.

Now your looking at a certificate and saying IMO it is not Li Zi Ming who wrote but Sato Kinbei. So you can magically determine and analyse kanji writing to determine if it is his. So I guess the stamp is forged as well. Come on!

Now as to the issue that the information is on a public forum and it is your right to know the answer. I respond to you, this is not the case. Why is it with the internet everyone thinks it is their right to information. Information is given, if it is asked in the right manner. If you approached a teacher and asked in the manner that you are asking, you would be thrown out. You should know this, and your wife should know this being japanese and how japanese manner works.

Again, I ask you. If you are no longer in the organization, what do you care. Go on with your life, go train with someone else.

Wish you luck.

Troy


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Brian 

I don't think it is a crusade though it may appear as that maybe crusade to find answers certaintly  not a crusade against Mr.Tanemura or the Genbukan.

I will email Mr.Ron concerning the matter. I will post his response as well as Mr.Black's and Mr. Howards so people can get a clearer picture of things. Again this is not a crusade or a fraud busting this is trying to get answers for not only myself but I am sure other people who are not so vocal would like to know as well.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> Inregards to the baqua certificate, there were two types of scrolls, folded and rolled.


 I only see the wrinkling one that Brian asked what it said. The site claims it comes from Li Zi Ming.



> However, is your wife now translating chinese


 
Would you like me to present the Kanji Denjin? We can look at it and see what it translates as.  We can have the same talk as me And George had.

 You should know also that in Hanzi(Chinese writing) it sometimes means the same thing in Kanji examples are: 
&#22825; read as Ten in Japanese in Chinese read as Tian in Chinese same Kanji/Hanzi there are plenty of examples. George claimed Denjin is Japanese reading of another Kanji however when George presented the Hanzi it did not translate as Denjin.


> If you were in Japan, you would know that kanji can be read many different ways. It is also a skill that is being lost amongst the japanese.


 What you want to see my passport,pictures of me there? I know Kanji can be read different ways which is why I asked a native to look at the Kanji who came up with the same conclusion.
I really don't know what you mean that Japanese are losing the ability to read Kanji but ok.



> Now your looking at a certificate and saying IMO it is not Li Zi Ming who wrote but Sato Kinbei. So you can magically determine and analyse kanji writing to determine if it is his. So I guess the stamp is forged as well. Come on!


 IMO=In my opnion I do not see Li Zi Ming name The stamp I can not make out to well. Also you can clearly see it says Sato Kinbei so maybe Li Zi Ming stamped it but Maybe Sato Kinbei wrote it. Maybe if I saw more of it maybe I would see Li Zi Ming's name if you see it point it out then.



> Now as to the issue that the information is on a public forum and it is your right to know the answer. I respond to you, this is not the case. Why is it with the internet everyone thinks it is their right to information. Information is given, if it is asked in the right manner


Claims are made not answering claims or making excuses or attacking the person for asking the claims shows 1.you don't know 2. you are trying to drive people away from asking these questions. All this info is placed on the internet if you do not want people asking these questions do not post 
information on the internet.




> If you approached a teacher and asked in the manner that you are asking, you would be thrown out.


 Blind loyality and cultish sheepish like following have never been my fortake I question everything because in the world there is always someone who is trying to take advantage of you and if you think not then you have already been taken advantage of. 



> You should know this, and your wife should know this being japanese and how japanese manner works.


 Ya but I am American so I do not need to swallow Japanese formality and being that this forum is in America nor does anyone else. You are right I could not ask Tanemura in his Dojo as a member but as an outsider of the organization then yes I can. Any attempt to not answer the question or accuse me of being rude or what not is a weak defense and in some cases may be seen as avoiding the issue which may be then be seen as something to hide.


> Again, I ask you. If you are no longer in the organization, what do you care. Go on with your life, go train with someone else.


Again I answer you with why do you care I care so much? Do you want this to just go away is that why you always bring this up?
If you really do not know thats fine I can accept that but the only person who has made any impact on this discussion and whos explaination does make some sense is Chris Parker and even he seems to have questions as well.


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## Kevin Geaslin

You admit that you are "Western" in that you question everything about your teacher's credentials, even to the point of rudeness. Yes, it is healthy to make sure that your teacher is legitimate, but hardly anyone in the budo community has a better resume than Tanemura sensei. I don't know if you left the Genbukan under bad circumstances, and it's none of my business, but you seem to "have it in" for your former teacher and associates, even though I admit that you are professional and polite about it. 

None of what you keep bringing up has any merit. You have consistently used the words "Genbukan" and "Disney" together, simply because our organization (yes, it _is_ a business, even if we are just buying and selling old jujutsu techniques) has merchandise for sale on the website. We are thankful for this, because in "the old days" it took a long time to get books and training supplies from Japan. Thanks to the internet and Paypal I can get the new kyu or dan DVD and book I need in a week. Couldn't be happier with it. 

You then raise issues about sensei resurrecting a long-dead ninja ryuha, mentioned in Tatara Magazine. I just dusted mine off and flipped through it, I see no mention of said dream sequence. 

So then you dwell on the trivial matter of "grandmaster" versus "mastership", written in the first manual. I have both, and if it _was_ an error in translation (there are many simple errors in translation), then it was fixed. The latest revised manual simply states "5th Denjin". Regardless, Sensei could claim Grandmastership if he desired, as he has full transmission and could make it Tanemura-ha Hakkesho. 

As for use of the word, Mr. Kohler explained it in full detail, and provided a link for the Chinese word for which "Denjin" is based on. Anyone that has a history in traditional Japanese arts is familiar with the word. Even my friend that does Kyokushin karate and spend most of his time playing Virtua Fighter and Shenmue knows that Denjin and Meijin are commonly-used. 

And with no disrespect to your family (I mean that, not a personal attack), you are basing some of this on your mother-in-laws opinion of Tanemura sensei? And if your wife is unfamiliar with some of the terms we use, that's to be expected. My Japanese teacher was born and raised in Japan and is unable to read some of Takamatsu sensei's gravestone because the kanji are, as he states, "what old people use". 

So while I respect your diligence, it seems to some of us in the Genbukan that you are going beyond asking the simple routine questions, and simply looking for dirt. Good luck in your training.

Kevin Geaslin
Genbukan Ninpo & Kokusai Jujutsu


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## yorkshirelad

I can't understand why anyone would have a problem with an org selling baseball caps and t-shirts, every martial arts association does it. Tanemura sensei has spent a lifetime training and teaching, why shouldn't he make a profit. He also make his arts as accessible as possible, he should be commended for that. No-one here can deny that he is a legitimate Grandmaster. 

The break between Hatsumi and Tanemura was obviously an event that has caused some hurt in Tanemura's case so I can understand that he wants to mention Hatsumi as little as possible when it comes to his training. All I can say is that any student who has Tanemura as a teacher should feel lucky to have such a knowledgable man and a genuine grandmaster of Takamatsuden as a teacher.

I enjoyed training with some BBD students in Dublin in the mid to late 1990s and have incorporated much of what I was taught in the martial arts that I teach. Learning from Hatsumi or Tanemura would be an honour. 

When it comes down to it I say just train. If you don't like the org or the teacher you train under move on, but don't let someone's opinion on a forum stop you from checking out the training. From what I've seen of Tanemura on video/utube, he is extremely proficient, knowledgeable and likeable. Just my 2 cents.

Dom


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> You admit that you are "Western" in that you question everything about your teacher's credentials, even to the point of rudeness.


 Tanemura is not my teacher. Yes I wil question anyone who makes claims and since the claims are published freely on the internet I will questioned them openly on the internet. I would do the same for anything that I have questions about this just happens to be the Genbukan nothing personal.



> Yes, it is healthy to make sure that your teacher is legitimate, but hardly anyone in the budo community has a better resume than Tanemura sensei.


 I questioned things that to me seem a little shakey that need better answers then the ones being given. 


> I don't know if you left the Genbukan under bad circumstances, and it's none of my business, but you seem to "have it in" for your former teacher and associates


 I do not "have it in" for anyone but I would like the questions answered so far noone has explained how a Gendai created art can be called Koryu karate along with other questions.



> None of what you keep bringing up has any merit.


Sure it does it is being open about what you do. Its about answering questions that are public domain on websites if you do not want people asking questions about your organization or your teacher then by all means do not put it on the web for people to see.



> You have consistently used the words "Genbukan" and "Disney" together, simply because our organization (yes, it _is_ a business, even if we are just buying and selling old jujutsu techniques) has merchandise for sale on the website.


 I am talking about Hats,Tshirts,Towels I find it to be gimmicks and marketing like Disney vs other Koryu schools that do not advertise merchandise. It is odd to me and seems more of a way to cash in on people who are willing to buy it. But if there is a market why not and this is exactly Disney like business.




> You then raise issues about sensei resurrecting a long-dead ninja ryuha, mentioned in Tatara Magazine. I just dusted mine off and flipped through it, I see no mention of said dream sequence.


Troy corrected it this was in the Bufu. My MISTAKE but it did happen.



> So then you dwell on the trivial matter of "grandmaster" versus "mastership", written in the first manual. I have both, and if it _was_ an error in translation (there are many simple errors in translation), then it was fixed


 I don't know other sites still list it.But fair enough an error in translating I can go for that.



> "5th Denjin". Regardless, Sensei could claim Grandmastership if he desired, as he has full transmission and could make it Tanemura-ha Hakkesho.


 Well that would make it quite suspicious to go off and do that. I don't know if he has full transmission of Bagua from either Wang Shu Jin or Li Zi Ming because there is more than just the mother palms and 2 man sets so how much of Wang's and Ming's bagua has been transmitted I would like to know.
I know of Wang's Bagua consists of Linking form,Swiming dragon form,Animal form,Stake form does Mr.Tanemura practice all this?
Li Zi Ming practiced Liang style Bagua are you saying Mr.Tanemura inherited the Liang style from Li Zi Ming?


> As for use of the word, Mr. Kohler explained it in full detail, and provided a link for the Chinese word for which "Denjin" is based on


And if you read the conversation the Kanji does not mean what he says. 
Lets break it down then" Den=message Jin=person. It kinda of means like story teller,passing messenge from person to person. Like when a father tells his son a story and he becomes the next "Denjin" to tell the story. When I further pointed out Denjin is not in the Japanese Kanji dictionary George said it is a Chinese word and presented the Kanji but again this did not read as Denjin you can read the whole thread I posted it on this thread.



> you are basing some of this on your mother-in-laws opinion of Tanemura sensei? And if your wife is unfamiliar with some of the terms we use


My mother-inlaw is the same age as Tanemura and spoke to him she said his mannerism is like a salesman. So yes what another Japanese thinks of anothers Japanese mannerism really does have weight on my opinion.




> So while I respect your diligence, it seems to some of us in the Genbukan that you are going beyond asking the simple routine questions, and simply looking for dirt.


 Do you have dirt you are trying to hide then?


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## MJS

*ADMIN NOTE*

****ATTENTION ALL USERS****

*Please keep the thread at a respectful level. I'd also like to direct everyone to the forum rules, which can be found here, specifically section 4.16.*

*Mike Slosek*
*MT Asst. Admin*


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## MJS

*Thread Closed For Review.*


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