# What's a weapon and is it legal to carry?



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 26, 2019)

First, I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.  It is my opinion based on some previous experience in law enforcement.  Laws differ from place to place, and the wise person will find out what the laws are concerning weapons and concealed carry in the place where they live, and consult an attorney rather than relying on advice from random internet yahoos, including myself in that.

I have seen several posts recently, espousing carrying different items intended for self-defense, under the argument that they are not traditional weapons, therefore they are legal to carry and even to use for self-defense.  Most of these arguments rely on the 'logic' that they can simply tell a law enforcement officer that the items used were not intended to be used as weapons and therefore they will not be arrested.  Hmmm, yeah, no.

There are obviously items which everyone understands to be weapons, such as a firearm or a fixed-blade knife.  I think we all understand that if you go about armed with either of those, you stand little chance of being able to argue that they were actually intended for a non-defensive purpose and therefore are not weapons.  I mean, good luck with that.

However, internet 'wisdom' seems to believe that just because an item isn't a traditional weapon as such, or has a different purpose, it's not a weapon and is therefore legal.  For example, a screwdriver, a kubaton, various punch-enhancers in the form of 'brass knuckles', steel balls, and so on.

Are they weapons?  That depends very much on the circumstances.  A screwdriver is not a burglar tool if I have a box of tools and am engaged in repairing something.  A screwdriver in my back pocket at oh-dark-thirty while I am crouched by the basement window of some house other than my own?  Yeah, burglar tool.  It's not the screwdriver, it's the circumstances.

So you happen to carry around your ben-wa balls in your pocket (weird, but whatever) and you carry them for the express purpose of defending yourself.  A punch enhancer, something to throw at someone, etc.  Yeah, so the steel or stone balls by themselves, not weapons.  But the context changes when you punch someone in the head with your hand wrapped around one, or use it as a hammer on a skull, or whip them at someone.  Then, they *might* be weapons.  And they *might* be considered illegal weapons.

There is no hard-and-fast rule.  Everyone wants there to be a magical list of 'weapon/not weapon' and there isn't one.  Some weapons may indeed be specifically named, but that doesn't mean nothing else is a weapon.

I went to court once with a guy who killed someone in a bar parking lot with a black powder rifle.  The old-fashioned muzzle-loading kind.  He was a felon, forbidden from owning firearms.  He reasoned (because that's what ignorant people do) that since you don't have to go through a background check to buy a black powder gun, it's therefore not a gun.  The judge saw it differently, and he was convicted of some form of homicide, and felon in possession of a gun.  But it's not a gun, judge, don't you get it?  Nope, the judge did not get it.  There's the problem.  We 'reason' that we know better than the law.  Often a mistake.

So a ben-wa ball is not a weapon.  True.  If you use it for its intended (ew) purpose.  Maybe - maybe - you could carry around a set and a cop *might* not consider them concealed weapons.  Depends on the circumstances.  If you use them to defend yourself (or heaven forbid, to break the law and assault someone), don't expect the cop to listen to your learned discourse about how some dude on the interwebs said it would be perfectly OK.  Said dude won't be showing up in court to speak up in your defense.  Said dude won't be serving your prison sentence or paying your fine.

There are legal ways to arm yourself in much of the USA.  If you wish to go about armed, I suggest you take advantage of them, so there is no reason to have to explain to a cop how the strange objects in your pockets are actually intended for pleasure and not for bashing skulls in.

I'm going to quote a little Canadian law, just because it makes things easy to understand.  Most US law is similar but couched in legalese and harder to grasp.  This one is easy:

Canadian Criminal Law/Weapons - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

anything designed to be used as a weapon;
anything that a person uses as a weapon, whether that thing is designed as a weapon or not; and
anything that one intends to use as a weapon regardless of its design
I really like the simplicity of that, don't you?  There are clearly things designed to be used as weapons.  A pistol, a rifle, a shotgun, a sword, a knife, Ninja throwing stars, etc.  There are things which we've seen in threads here that are intended to be used as weapons.  And there are things which perhaps (maybe) were not actually intended to be used as weapons, but ended up being used that way.  Maybe you carried that bullwhip to hold up your pants.  Yeah, maybe.

Keeping to that 'simple is best' theme, I will close with this.  If your imagination tells you that you'll just tell the cop that X, Y, and Z and therefore he or she can't arrest you, you may find yourself mistaken.  I cannot tell you how many people have informed me that I could not arrest them while I did just exactly that.


----------



## ST1Doppelganger (Feb 26, 2019)

I carry an old man cane in each one of my cars as a low profile self defense tool.  If someone asks what it's for I will simply say it's for one of my multiple Injuries that randomly get inflamed from time to time.  

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 26, 2019)

Yes it is, and maybe.


----------



## elder999 (Feb 26, 2019)

Pens as Weapons.


----------



## lklawson (Feb 27, 2019)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> I carry an old man cane in each one of my cars as a low profile self defense tool.  If someone asks what it's for I will simply say it's for one of my multiple Injuries that randomly get inflamed from time to time.


The thing is... most cops aren't idiots.

If the cop looks you up and down and thinks, "regular joe, not a criminal, just wanting a legal and safe way to defend himself" then he won't hassle you.  If he looks you up and down and thinks, "dude's up to no good," then your <cough> "simple cane" becomes a club. 

If you're unlucky and are in a state or local which encourages cops to go after folks trying to be legally armed through so-called <cough> "loopholes" (I'm looking at you New York), then the cop may ask if you've got a Doctor's Note because you don't look to him like you need a cane (no joke, it's happened).

Or if you just get unlucky and get one of the rare cops that are on a power trip and he wants to hassle you, and you're in a local with a vague "going forth armed" law (yes, they still exist).

Look, I get it.  I've carried a cane for self defense too.  And I've concocted the same "old injuries" story.  But I knew that it's just a "cover story" that gives a friendly cop the plausible excuse to not hassle someone he doesn't think is a criminal.  I distinctly remember going to the local government center to pay a traffic fine with my wooden cane.  I had to walk through the metal detector and the cop manning the station sent the cane through the x-ray.  He asked me if I needed help standing or walking through without the cane.  "No, thank you," I said.  He gave me a knowing side-ways look, nodded to me, and waved me through.

Cops aren't idiots.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## elder999 (Feb 27, 2019)

lklawson said:


> The thing is... most cops aren't idiots.
> 
> If the cop looks you up and down and thinks, "regular joe, not a criminal, just wanting a legal and safe way to defend himself" then he won't hassle you.  If he looks you up and down and thinks, "dude's up to no good," then your <cough> "simple cane" becomes a club.
> 
> ...



Eh. I'm. Missing toes. And I've had 4 DVTs 
And I'm nearly 60.
My cane:I may not _ always_ need it, but I've always got it.
Like my pistol, only more often.....


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 27, 2019)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> I carry an old man cane in each one of my cars as a low profile self defense tool.  If someone asks what it's for I will simply say it's for one of my multiple Injuries that randomly get inflamed from time to time.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk



Good luck with that. It's an assumption that might or might not fly. "I will simply say" fits right in there with the idea that you to tell a cop what's what.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> First, I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.  It is my opinion based on some previous experience in law enforcement.  Laws differ from place to place, and the wise person will find out what the laws are concerning weapons and concealed carry in the place where they live, and consult an attorney rather than relying on advice from random internet yahoos, including myself in that.
> 
> I have seen several posts recently, espousing carrying different items intended for self-defense, under the argument that they are not traditional weapons, therefore they are legal to carry and even to use for self-defense.  Most of these arguments rely on the 'logic' that they can simply tell a law enforcement officer that the items used were not intended to be used as weapons and therefore they will not be arrested.  Hmmm, yeah, no.
> 
> ...



I still have my 6-cell Mag light behind the seat. It is clearly a light  but.... turn it around and, well you don't have to have a vivid imagination. It is scarred and banged up so it shows use beyond being a light. Could that be used against me in certain situations, sure. As soon as someone steps into a grey area of law (way too many) you better be prepared and be very careful with your wording. 
I also have a .22 rifle in my truck 1-2 days/week. Coyote's are a big problem in my area. It is always loaded for quick use but if I got pulled over at night and the officer was having a bad day, they could make it a long night for me. 
I went to a call in a urban housing area and a girl had tied three 18 volt batteries together with wires and was going around shocking kids. When we got there her alibi was she was using them for work. This was true based on what she was doing when we got there. We had nothing to charge her with but later one the people she attack filed charges. She pled guilty to misdemeanor assault. 
Too it happens in todays society where people run with limited information about an occurrence to make it fit their own agenda.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 27, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I still have my 6-cell Mag light behind the seat. It is clearly a light  but.... turn it around and, well you don't have to have a vivid imagination. It is scarred and banged up so it shows use beyond being a light. Could that be used against me in certain situations, sure. As soon as someone steps into a grey area of law (way too many) you better be prepared and be very careful with your wording.
> I also have a .22 rifle in my truck 1-2 days/week. Coyote's are a big problem in my area. It is always loaded for quick use but if I got pulled over at night and the officer was having a bad day, they could make it a long night for me.
> I went to a call in a urban housing area and a girl had tied three 18 volt batteries together with wires and was going around shocking kids. When we got there her alibi was she was using them for work. This was true based on what she was doing when we got there. We had nothing to charge her with but later one the people she attack filed charges. She pled guilty to misdemeanor assault.
> Too it happens in todays society where people run with limited information about an occurrence to make it fit their own agenda.


What are the coyotes doing, that makes them such a problem?


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> What are the coyotes doing, that makes them such a problem?


Killing calf's. It is not a pretty sight.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 27, 2019)

lklawson said:


> The thing is... most cops aren't idiots.


 Which is why I don't invest in cover stories to use on them.



lklawson said:


> I distinctly remember going to the local government center to pay a traffic fine with my wooden cane. I had to walk through the metal detector and the cop manning the station sent the cane through the x-ray. He asked me if I needed help standing or walking through without the cane. "No, thank you," I said. He gave me a knowing side-ways look, nodded to me, and waved me through.


You are find with the cane unless it had a long blade in it lol. Then it would have been an entirely different conversation.

Walking canes aren't illegal  (if it's just a cane) so the best that they can do is analyze the risk that you may use it as a weapon.  Had  you been upset and yelling, then they would have secured the cane.  Not because it's a weapon, but because the risk of you using it as a weapon has just gone up.  

Let me find out this is really you. lol


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 28, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Which is why I don't invest in cover stories to use on them.
> 
> You are find with the cane unless it had a long blade in it lol. Then it would have been an entirely different conversation.
> 
> ...


----------



## lklawson (Feb 28, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> You are find [fine?] with the cane


You're telling me?  I was there.  




> Walking canes aren't illegal  (if it's just a cane) so the best that they can do is analyze the risk that you may use it as a weapon.  Had  you been upset and yelling, then they would have secured the cane.  Not because it's a weapon, but because the risk of you using it as a weapon has just gone up.


There's lots and lots of flexibility there.  You can get arrested and charged for just about anything, even if there's limited or no proof.  Even if the charges are eventually dropped because they got noth'n, you're still out a lot of time, money, and headache.  Look at the case of Paul Lathrop.  A false report was made, which was EASILY refuted but the local authorities arrested him anyway because they had an agenda.  He was out not just his weekend, he was out the job time he missed while incarcerated, he was out the job time he missed going to and from the legal proceedings, because the local authorities didn't want to believe him about his diabetes he didn't get his meds and it endangered both his career (professional driver) and his very life.  Now, years later, he's still paying back money he borrowed to deal with this false and easily refuted allegation.  And the man who made the false report never showed up.  He's gone.  In the wind.  Likely left the country.

All it takes is a cop in a bad mood for something similar to happen to you, particularly if you're in a self-defense unfriendly area (New York, New Jersy, Marryland, etc.).

What keeps it more-or-less working is that most cops in the U.S. aren't idiots and aren't powertripping douchebags.  They're mostly good folks who genuinely want to help people.



> Let me find out this is really you. lol


It's my younger brother.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 28, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


>


Love that guy.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 28, 2019)

lklawson said:


> The thing is... most cops aren't idiots.
> 
> If the cop looks you up and down and thinks, "regular joe, not a criminal, just wanting a legal and safe way to defend himself" then he won't hassle you.  If he looks you up and down and thinks, "dude's up to no good," then your <cough> "simple cane" becomes a club.
> 
> ...


Even those of us who actually need the cane from time to time can be subject to those same issues. For unknown reasons, my limp gets much worse when in the vicinity of any X-ray scanner or security screening. Something about them just makes my knees worse.

Seriously, I often carry a cane when I don't need it, because I know I'll probably need it the next day (an entire day of standing while teaching nearly guarantees problems some weeks). So, even with an actual, predictable need, those same cops looking for a reason to cause trouble would look askance at me. I do actually have medical records to show the knee issues, but of course I wouldn't have anything with me to show that.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Killing calf's. It is not a pretty sight.


Interesting.  Their diet usually consists of mice and ground squirrels and gophers, those rodents that we find annoying and pesty.  They can grab a mouse as quickly and easily as I can grab an apple from the refrigerator.

Have people actually witnessed them making the kills?  Typically when they feed on larger animals it is scavenging and not direct killing.  For example, Biologists have witnessed them waiting patiently for several days, for a sick white-tailed deer to die before feeding on it.  Even with a weakened and dying animal they didn’t attack it.

From what I’ve read, they don’t turn to farm animals unless their habitat has been pretty severely disrupted and they don’t have other choices.  And even then it’s often unclear if they made the kill or its scavenging.

We’ve got coyotes and they come up by the house all the time.  I’ve got lots of critter-cam photos, a real critter highway runs along the side of my house, deer, foxes, raccoons, opossum, coyotes, skunks pass through every day.  I’ve never heard of such issues in our area, though we don’t have cattle around here.  Some people keep horses but I can’t imagine coyote ever going after a horse.

There was some stir last year on our Nextdoor community, apparently a breeding pair set up a den close to a trail that gets heavy use, and they were chasing people away from it.  Everyone just gave them their space until the pups were big enough to move away and there were no real problems.


----------



## punisher73 (Feb 28, 2019)

As usual, Bill has spoken the truth in a matter.  In Michigan, there is also the "intent to go armed".  I have seen someone arrested and taken to jail because they had a small pen knife that would have been completely legal to carry, but he told the officer that it was to defend himself.  It was now a concealed weapon.  Now a different story and where MANY people get into trouble is the next layer of the legal system.  The cops may or may not go with the story and forward the report to the local PA/DA in your jurisdiction.  How do they view such cases?  In the above scenario, they may also chose to prosecute the guy with a small pen knife as a CCW or they may deny the request since it doesn't meet the parameters of their office to prosecute certain crimes.

I personally arrested a dirt bag because he had one of those gimmicky lighters that had a 1 1/2 switchblade as part of the lighter.  Why?  Because he was a career criminal and an illegal switchblade and CCW was a good way to get him off the streets.  The prosecutor also agreed and charged him with it.

Another one that truck drivers use a lot that can get them into trouble are the "tire checkers", which are just billy clubs.

IF you are not going to get a legal CPL for whatever reason or can't get one for whatever reason.  Talk to a local attorney that is very familiar with how your local PA/DA office looks at cases and get advice.  Buying a "Tactical Pen" just looks like you want to stab someone with a pen because no normal person buys them unless that is their reason to use it as a weapon.  For goodness sake, buy a nice steel Cross brand pen (or similar) for a fraction of the cost and no one will bat an eye at it in your shirt.  Buy a GQ magazine and roll it up, hard as a baton but doesn't look like anything and doesn't draw attention.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 28, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Interesting.  Their diet usually consists of mice and ground squirrels and gophers, those rodents that we find annoying and pesty.  They can grab a mouse as quickly and easily as I can grab an apple from the refrigerator.
> 
> Have people actually witnessed them making the kills?  Typically when they feed on larger animals it is scavenging and not direct killing.  For example, Biologists have witnessed them waiting patiently for several days, for a sick white-tailed deer to die before feeding on it.  Even with a weakened and dying animal they didn’t attack it.
> 
> ...


I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Like you said, you don't have cattle. They are known to stalk and take advantage of a newborn when it is too young to stand and walk well. Too many documented events of confirmed kills by coyote each year to count. They pack hunt at times. They are a wild animal and should be treated as such. It is unlikely to catch them on a trail cam other than on a frequented trail, which is not in the middle of an open field where calf's are usually born. We occasionally have farmers lose livestock to dogs (wild and "not wild"). You can apply for government reimbursement for lost livestock from attacks but that is an unwise and inhumane way to raise cattle. It is what you don't see that you are not acknowledging. You are welcome to come to TN and take all the coyotes you can catch back west with you.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 28, 2019)

punisher73 said:


> As usual, Bill has spoken the truth in a matter.  In Michigan, there is also the "intent to go armed".  I have seen someone arrested and taken to jail because they had a small pen knife that would have been completely legal to carry, but he told the officer that it was to defend himself.  It was now a concealed weapon.  Now a different story and where MANY people get into trouble is the next layer of the legal system.  The cops may or may not go with the story and forward the report to the local PA/DA in your jurisdiction.  How do they view such cases?  In the above scenario, they may also chose to prosecute the guy with a small pen knife as a CCW or they may deny the request since it doesn't meet the parameters of their office to prosecute certain crimes.
> 
> I personally arrested a dirt bag because he had one of those gimmicky lighters that had a 1 1/2 switchblade as part of the lighter.  Why?  Because he was a career criminal and an illegal switchblade and CCW was a good way to get him off the streets.  The prosecutor also agreed and charged him with it.
> 
> ...


Good points but I am just as likely to walk around with a magazine (rolled up or otherwise) at night as I am a "tire checker". As much as possible I am going to follow the Cub Scout motto.


----------



## mrt2 (Feb 28, 2019)

I am an attorney in Wisconsin, and this is the definition of dangerous weapon in Wisconsin.   There are a lot of laws where if you do something while armed with a dangerous weapon, it increases the penalty, sometimes significantly.  The easy one is the first one, a firearm.  But as you see, the last one is a catchall that covers anything from kitchen knives, to baseball bats, to martial arts weapons.

(10) “Dangerous weapon" means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or great bodily harm; any ligature or other instrumentality used on the throat, neck, nose, or mouth of another person to impede, partially or completely, breathing or circulation of blood; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (1c) (a); or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 28, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> I am an attorney in Wisconsin, and this is the definition of dangerous weapon in Wisconsin.   There are a lot of laws where if you do something while armed with a dangerous weapon, it increases the penalty, sometimes significantly.  The easy one is the first one, a firearm.  But as you see, the last one is a catchall that covers anything from kitchen knives, to baseball bats, to martial arts weapons.
> 
> (10) “Dangerous weapon" means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or great bodily harm; any ligature or other instrumentality used on the throat, neck, nose, or mouth of another person to impede, partially or completely, breathing or circulation of blood; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (1c) (a); or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.


The line after the CFR is confusing to me. Where is says "intended to be used". In the essence of where you live, if I unintentionally kill someone with my electric cattle dehorner, say by electrocution or burning, how would that be perceived? Is that lawyer speak to use for or against someone?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2019)

lklawson said:


> You're telling me? I was there.


 True lol



lklawson said:


> What keeps it more-or-less working is that most cops in the U.S. aren't idiots and aren't powertripping douchebags. They're mostly good folks who genuinely want to help people.


 This is how I see it too.  I try not to irritate them.  I want the officer in a good mood when they are talking to me lol.  So far I've only had toe deal with 1 A-hole officer. It was for a speeding ticket that I got when I wasn't speaking.  Officer lied all the way through, and then when I asked him did he clock me when I was moving towards him or when I passed him,  He couldn't answer that question,  But he claimed he knew which position my car was in relation to other people.  That's when I learned first hand about the practices of Police Quotas.  But the rest are cool.  A-holes are A-holes regards of what uniform they are wearing or not wearing.



gpseymour said:


> So, even with an actual, predictable need, those same cops looking for a reason to cause trouble would look askance at me. I do actually have medical records to show the knee issues, but of course I wouldn't have anything with me to show that.


That may be a big gamble for the officer.  To harass you about a cane and to put you in a position where you produce medical records which end up proving that he was harassing you.  That is something that could spiral out of control, especially if you injured yourself as a result of officer taking the cane away from you.  And all of that over a cane and a guy with bad knees.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> The line after the CFR is confusing to me. Where is says "intended to be used". In the essence of where you live, if I unintentionally kill someone with my electric cattle dehorner, say by electrocution or burning, how would that be perceived? Is that lawyer speak to use for or against someone?


 I read it as anything thing used to in a manner that you intend to cause harm.  So my stone massage stone becomes a weapon at the moment I use it or threaten to use it to cause harm.  But it's not a weapon if I yell to you "hey catch" , you miss it and it hits you in your head.   There would be other laws for that type of behavior if they find that the behavior is negligence (or whatever the term is lol).  So if I did the same thing with a knife and it stuck  you in your eye, then they would look at the intent.  Was I purposely trying to stick it in your eye to cause harm or did I have negligent behavior which caused you harm.  It's still  can be a crime but it's not a "Weapon's based crime."



dvcochran said:


> if I unintentionally kill someone with my electric cattle dehorner, say by electrocution or burning, how would that be perceived?


My guess is this would depend on your motive and the context of which it happened.   For example, if you threw it on the back seat of your car and you didn't secure it and someone sits down on it or picks it up then it will probably not be seen as a weapon.   But if you place it where you knew it would cause harm for the intent of causing harm to other's then it will satisfy the weapon status.

Take a medical needle.  Doctors and nurses stab people with those all the time.   However it's not used to cause harm.  But if you do the same to someone in public for the purpose of causing harm then the same needle is now a weapon.  If you kept a punch of those at the bottom of a box and I stuck my hand in the box and got stuck, then you might be at risk of a criminal charge, but not a weapons charge.  If you hid the needles int he seat at a movie theater because you know people will get hurt with them then it's a weapon.  even if no one sits on them, it is still clear that you intended for someone to be hurt via a weapon  "*it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.*"

I could be wrong but that's how I read it.  Otherwise doctors and nurses would be going to jail every time someone gets a shot.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 1, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> That may be a big gamble for the officer. To harass you about a cane and to put you in a position where you produce medical records which end up proving that he was harassing you. That is something that could spiral out of control, especially if you injured yourself as a result of officer taking the cane away from you. And all of that over a cane and a guy with bad knees.


Oh, that's definitely true. And, as has bee said, most cops are good people trying to do good. But in any group of people, there will be some who aren't so good...and even some who do things that are both foolish and not in their own best interest.


----------



## mrt2 (Mar 1, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> I read it as anything thing used to in a manner that you intend to cause harm.  So my stone massage stone becomes a weapon at the moment I use it or threaten to use it to cause harm.  But it's not a weapon if I yell to you "hey catch" , you miss it and it hits you in your head.   There would be other laws for that type of behavior if they find that the behavior is negligence (or whatever the term is lol).  So if I did the same thing with a knife and it stuck  you in your eye, then they would look at the intent.  Was I purposely trying to stick it in your eye to cause harm or did I have negligent behavior which caused you harm.  It's still  can be a crime but it's not a "Weapon's based crime."
> 
> My guess is this would depend on your motive and the context of which it happened.   For example, if you threw it on the back seat of your car and you didn't secure it and someone sits down on it or picks it up then it will probably not be seen as a weapon.   But if you place it where you knew it would cause harm for the intent of causing harm to other's then it will satisfy the weapon status.
> 
> ...


You pretty much have it.  The last part of the statute is designed to deal with things that are not weapons but can be used as weapons under certain circumstances.  Hammers, screwdrivers, baseball bats, rocks, kitchen knives.  All can be used as weapons even though they were not designed as such.  So mere possession of these items wouldn't result in a charge, but could under the right circumstances.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 1, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Oh, that's definitely true. And, as has bee said, most cops are good people trying to do good. But in any group of people, there will be some who aren't so good...and even some who do things that are both foolish and not in their own best interest.


True. LE officers are human and as such will make mistakes from time to time. The glaring difference I hear in the conversation is not acknowledging intended purpose. When your job entails a considerable portion of you day dealing with the worst kind of people, it is difficult not to have a hard edge. Often you will be dealing with good people who have been thrown into bad situations (wrecks, break ins, assaults, etc...) and their bad side comes out. An officer has to deal with this dynamic as best he/she can but has to stay in control of a situation for everyone's benefit. Too often this is not acknowledged and people get bent out of shape when a situation doesn't go the way of their narrow minded narrative. It is entirely possible the officer who just pulled you over came from a fatality accident or domestic disturbance. They deserve the benefit of doubt just like the rest of us. And just like many of us, they are under paid and over worked. Above reproach? That is subjective and where I think the problem usually lies.
I do live by the edict of treating people the way I want to be treated but try not to get bent out of shape when it doesn't happen.


----------



## mrt2 (Mar 1, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> True. LE officers are human and as such will make mistakes from time to time. The glaring difference I hear in the conversation is not acknowledging intended purpose. When your job entails a considerable portion of you day dealing with the worst kind of people, it is difficult not to have a hard edge. Often you will be dealing with good people who have been thrown into bad situations (wrecks, break ins, assaults, etc...) and their bad side comes out. An officer has to deal with this dynamic as best he/she can but has to stay in control of a situation for everyone's benefit. Too often this is not acknowledged and people get bent out of shape when a situation doesn't go the way of their narrow minded narrative. It is entirely possible the officer who just pulled you over came from a fatality accident or domestic disturbance. They deserve the benefit of doubt just like the rest of us. And just like many of us, they are under paid and over worked. Above reproach? That is subjective and where I think the problem usually lies.
> I do live by the edict of treating people the way I want to be treated but try not to get bent out of shape when it doesn't happen.


Or they just need to have their guard up.  Even the most innocuous traffic stop can turn deadly in the blink of an eye if you are not paying attention.  I am not a cop, but I do have to deal with accused criminals, and I try not to forget that


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 1, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Like you said, you don't have cattle. They are known to stalk and take advantage of a newborn when it is too young to stand and walk well. Too many documented events of confirmed kills by coyote each year to count. They pack hunt at times. They are a wild animal and should be treated as such. It is unlikely to catch them on a trail cam other than on a frequented trail, which is not in the middle of an open field where calf's are usually born. We occasionally have farmers lose livestock to dogs (wild and "not wild"). You can apply for government reimbursement for lost livestock from attacks but that is an unwise and inhumane way to raise cattle. It is what you don't see that you are not acknowledging. You are welcome to come to TN and take all the coyotes you can catch back west with you.



Not making a point, but curious about the situation.

Coincidentally I happened to be reading about coyote habits just a couple weeks ago.  There is a long history of conflict with the coyote, as I am sure you know.

What has also been documented is that a lot of coyote “kills” have been discovered to have been scavenges, where the coyote did not make the kill, but it was easy to make the assumption that they did.

So I was curious about what is happening in your area.  That includes wondering how kills are verified as having been done by coyotes, or if people are acting on assumption.  That would also include wondering what preventative steps the cattle farmers take to prevent the kills in the first place (things that might not include preemptively shooting the coyotes), and whether there is any attempt to identify a coyote that has actually made a kill before shooting it, or it all coyotes are considered fair game, no matter what.

You did mention that you carry a loaded rifle in you truck, in case you see a coyote.  So I thought I’d inquire.


----------



## punisher73 (Mar 1, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Good points but I am just as likely to walk around with a magazine (rolled up or otherwise) at night as I am a "tire checker". As much as possible I am going to follow the Cub Scout motto.



What I was getting at was the common sense approach.  If your excuse for carrying something doesn't really make sense it can open you up to liability in areas.  Like you said, if I'm carrying around a big rolled up magazine at night it makes it harder to explain away if I'm not by public transportation lines that I would be riding to be doing any reading.  The rolled magazine is something that many bodyguards do in areas that they can't carry, there is a lot of sitting and the reason holds up.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 1, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> Or they just need to have their guard up.  Even the most innocuous traffic stop can turn deadly in the blink of an eye if you are not paying attention.  I am not a cop, but I do have to deal with accused criminals, and I try not to forget that



Quite true. There are a lot of LEOs in my family. My mother, two of her brothers, one of my kids, a couple cousins...
One of my uncles was State Patrol. He pulled a guy over for a burned out taillight and got shot. Happily, the bad guy leaned out and shot him while he was still back by his car instead of waiting till he was standing at the bad guys window. Wilbur (my uncle, not the talking horse) got hit in the upper arm, but was ultimately fine.
Turned out the bad guy had some warrants that he didn't want to deal with.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 1, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Not making a point, but curious about the situation.
> 
> Coincidentally I happened to be reading about coyote habits just a couple weeks ago.  There is a long history of conflict with the coyote, as I am sure you know.
> 
> ...


Coyote's are fair game. We also have kills from red headed buzzards and, believe it or not bald eagles. Of course we don't shoot at the eagles but I have video of them perched near recent births. I think it is a very different dynamic here. I cannot overstate the number of road kills of various animals we have here. It gets crazy when deer are moving and breeding. It is more than an inconvenience, it is too often a matter of life and death. And yes, many farmers have chased coyotes away while trying to make a kill. I guess you could call it profiling if you have to give it a name but that is what they do. It is estimated that for every coyote killed in TN, six are taking its place. 
Several years ago (about 40 years) black birds got so bad here that the government started paying a dime for every one killed. A dime in the 1970's was worth the effort. We even had scheduled gatherings on main thoroughfares to eradicate them is was so bad. It took years but it did work.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 1, 2019)

Meanwhile. Over our side of the world.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 1, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> carrying different items intended for self-defense, ...


What if a "gang member" said that next time you and him meet, he will kill you? Which one is more important, to protect your life, or to worry about the legal issue (assume you live in a country that firearm is not allowed)?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What if a "gang member" said that next time you and him meet, he will kill you? Which one is more important, to protect your life, or to worry about the legal issue (assume you live in a country that firearm is not allowed)?



Presuming the conditions you posit, I'd report his threat to the police, and take steps to avoid running into him.  If he made contact with me and attempted to assault me, I'd leave if I could, and if I could not leave, I'd defend myself to the best of my ability.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 2, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Presuming the conditions you posit, I'd report his threat to the police, and take steps to avoid running into him.  If he made contact with me and attempted to assault me, I'd leave if I could, and if I could not leave, I'd defend myself to the best of my ability.


I was in a similar situation where I was threaten, on my job by someone in the neighborhood.  I told the police and they said there was nothing they could do.  He told me to do what I need to do in order to protect myself and that it was better to defend myself and have the courts decide if my actions were legal then to not defend myself and be dead.  While he didn't say these exact works about protecting myself, It's exactly what he meant when he told me  "It's better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6"

After that day my car gained some new items commonly not used as weapons, but would be than enough to increase my odds of survival in a bad situation.  This was one of those situations where I wasn't allowed to carry weapons on the property.  I couldn't leave.  I was fortunate that one of my supervisors grew up with one of the head gang members in the area.   Not sure what the conversation was, but after my supervisor said "I know who he (the guy threatening me) runs with.  I'll talk to him (leader of the group).", I never had anymore problems.

The day I got threaten was the same day my co-worker got threaten.  He called his family and the family got their crew and drove up in the neighborhood 6 cars deep with weapons.  The point is that sometimes the right action may not be the least confrontational.  It just depends on the situation and the restrictions of the situation.   That's the most difficult thing about self-defense.  It rarely runs out like a script where one can follow steps 1 - step 6 and be safe.  Things such as your size, gender, age, health, race, or physical look, etc. can mean that you'll have some options that someone else doesn't have or it could mean that things become more dangerous quickly because of your disadvantages.  There's really no once size fits all.  It's like traveling to a store that's 100 miles a way, many ways to get to the goal.

By the way I'm agreeing what you say.  Just using your comment to highlight some of the complexities of self-defense.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 2, 2019)

SD people don't like to talk about the "Bus 44" clip. If you have a big knife like this with you, you can save many life in that bus.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 2, 2019)

Life is not a movie.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> SD people don't like to talk about the "Bus 44" clip. If you have a big knife like this with you, you can save many life in that bus.


What makes you say something like that about "SD people", as if it's a homogenous group? That's a pretty shallow view, IMO.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> What makes you say something like that about "SD people", as if it's a homogenous group? That's a pretty shallow view, IMO.


Because the term SD mean to defense yourself and not to defend the others.

"Defend good against evil" can be a better term.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Because the term SD mean to defense yourself and not to defend the others.
> 
> "Defend good against evil" can be a better term.


That's what the term means, but I doubt you'd find that "SD people" have a common reaction to much else. In fact, most "SD people" I know do talk about the concept of defending others. Self-defense, as a concept, is not exclusive of defending others.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That's what the term means, but I doubt you'd find that "SD people" have a common reaction to much else. In fact, most "SD people" I know do talk about the concept of defending others. Self-defense, as a concept, is not exclusive of defending others.


We should share more story about "defend others". This way the world will be a much more pleasant place to live and we will not lose hope upon human being.

Is this the main purpose of our MA training? To promote the spirit of "侠(Xia) - defend good against evil"?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We should share more story about "defend others". This way the world will be a much more pleasant place to live and we will not lose hope upon human being.
> 
> Is this the main purpose of our MA training? To promote the spirit of "侠(Xia) - defend good against evil"?


 
Not for me.  I follow the way, or 'do'. The technique, or 'jutsu' is just the vehicle.

I live for others, but that is not the purpose of my training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We should share more story about "defend others". This way the world will be a much more pleasant place to live and we will not lose hope upon human being.
> 
> Is this the main purpose of our MA training? To promote the spirit of "侠(Xia) - defend good against evil"?


I think that's the spirit of what my training has always been. It's not talked about much, but then most of my training hasn't really talked about who was being attacked, it just dealt with the concept of facing an "attacker".


----------



## lklawson (Mar 4, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What if a "gang member" said that next time you and him meet, he will kill you? Which one is more important, to protect your life, or to worry about the legal issue (assume you live in a country that firearm is not allowed)?


I'd say that your life is not in imminent jeopardy.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 4, 2019)

Let me just grab the gov.uk page on knife carry.

Selling, buying and carrying knives


As far as i know English law everything needs to be reasonable force. And that of course is decided by the courts so you have to articulate your reasoning and justification for it.

And there is a terminology difference between weapons (deadly weapons) and objects pressed into service as weapons (dangerous weapons), not entirely sure where to find that for English law though. I could just be conflating some U.S terminology i saw.

As far as i know there is no issue in using a object to defend yourself so long as you can justify the force as long as you dont carry one strictly for self defence anyway.    For example if you picked up a brick on a wall and used it, or used your walking stick.

But then the point somone made was, weigh up the legal punishment with the loss of life/limb and decide for yourself if you wish to follow it or not.   If your going to get a slap on the wrist then maybe you should just disregard carrying law. Or if you are going to get life in prison, you are damned if you do damned if you dont.

Oh and if we are posting memes:   (language warning)


----------



## jobo (Mar 5, 2019)

Rat said:


> Let me just grab the gov.uk page on knife carry.
> 
> Selling, buying and carrying knives
> 
> ...


well maybe sort of,  your not allowed to carry weapon, that's something designed or you intend to use as a weapon.

your not allowed to carry a sheath knife, a lock knife with iut lawful excuse and never a flick knife. all other knives have to have a blade no longer than three inches,  and can't be carried with the intent of being a weapon. 
 instant s arming is allowed, that were you use something that isn't a weapon and wasnt intended as a weapon that comes to hand  either in your pocket or laying arounds

force does have to be reasonable, but only reasonable to the threat you perceive, not to the actual threat.

all that said using a weapon will get you in a world of bother, best not to unless your life really does hand in the balance.

in your own house you can any any weapon apart from a gun, and possibly a flick knife

I'm sure I told you all this last time


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 5, 2019)

jobo said:


> well maybe sort of,  your not allowed to carry weapon, that's something designed or you intend to use as a weapon.
> 
> your not allowed to carry a sheath knife, a lock knife with iut lawful excuse and never a flick knife. all other knives have to have a blade no longer than three inches,  and can't be carried with the intent of being a weapon.
> instant s arming is allowed, that were you use something that isn't a weapon and wasnt intended as a weapon that comes to hand  either in your pocket or laying arounds
> ...


What constitutes a "flick knife"? That's not a term I've heard before.


----------



## jobo (Mar 5, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> What constitutes a "flick knife"? That's not a term I've heard before.


switch blade, I think you would call it,  a knife that unfurls  its self under a spring or gravity, or any thing that can be opened with one hand


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 5, 2019)

jobo said:


> switch blade, I think you would call it,  a knife that unfurls  its self under a spring or gravity, or any thing that can be opened with one hand


Ah, that incorporates much more than "switch blade" does. A switch blade, in some places, is defined as a blade that opens (usually with force) under spring power with no assist from the user. Some places would include any spring-assisted opening (I think most wouldn't) and the ones that open with gravity. Common usage of the term (as opposed to legal usage) almost universally seems to refer to the ones that open via spring power when you push a button.

The others that fall under "flick knife" (those with a thumb notch or stud to open it one-handed) I've not seen referenced in any legal definition in the US, though surely they're referenced in some locations.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 5, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> What constitutes a "flick knife"? That's not a term I've heard before.



I belive they have redefined it legally recently.     I have yet to update myself with most of that stuff anyway.   (doesnt overlty effect carry to my knowledge though) 



I thought it was a automatic knife only?  Like its one you press a button or some other device to open it.     (may be part of the change in definition though not discounting that) 

Because i think gravity is cited as a separate thing.    eg, automatics AND butterfly knifes are banned in two separate entries.  And a few diffrent names for them are listed to avert some confusion.


----------

