# Secret mystical healing powers, are they real?



## kehcorpz (May 13, 2016)

For example the stuff from Karate Kid where Mr.Myagi rubs his hands and then cures Daniel's injuries.
Is this stuff real? If yes, can it be scientifically explained? 

But from what I know science can also not explain chi and how somebody can bend a spear with his throat.


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## MAfreak (May 13, 2016)

i'd like to list some things to think about:
- traditional chinese medicine sells powder and such of endangered animals as aphrodisiacs
- traditional chinese medicine sells carcinogenic plants as healing herbs
- acupuncture in studies was exactly as effective as placebo-therapy was
and overcoming pain isn't always good since pain warns us of injuries and the like.


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## Bill Mattocks (May 13, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> For example the stuff from Karate Kid where Mr.Myagi rubs his hands and then cures Daniel's injuries.



Did he cure Daniel's injuries?  Granted this was a movie, but consider the outcome.  Daniel was still in pain, still hobbling on one leg.  He overcame this to fight and win.  He was not cured.  People who are cured have no injury.



> Is this stuff real? If yes, can it be scientifically explained?



I heard about a mystical bark of a tree once as a cure for headaches.  You were supposed to find this particular kind of tree, and strip off some bark, and boil it, and drink the liquid.   Or chew it.  Or something like that.

From a tree, a 'miracle' called aspirin - CNN.com

Nowadays, you can get it in a pill.  They call it 'aspirin'.

The point I am trying to make is that folk medicine of all kinds, from ointments and herbs to massage and pressure points and acupuncture, all have a history of working, to one extent or another.  Many are exploited today and are little more than snake oil (fake), but it cannot be said that it is all fake or that none of it works.

If it works, it works.  Science can prove that with objective double-blind studies - or disprove it.

Even if proven, that doesn't necessarily mean that science can immediately demonstrate how it works.

But that doesn't mean it doesn't work, or that science can't eventually explain it.

It just means that science cannot explain it right now.



> But from what I know science can also not explain chi and how somebody can bend a spear with his throat.



You have to engage your brain.  Some things work whether or not we believe in them.  Some things work only if we believe in them.  Some things can be objectively proven, and others, not so much.  None of those proves anything, but a rational mind and some intelligent research should not steer you too wrong, plus developing your own sense of what is and is not real based on your own observations.

I hope that doesn't sound too mystical.  What I am trying to say is that there is no yes or no answer to your question.  Too many unknowns, too many gray areas.

For example - I have seen certain individuals claim to be able to knock others out without touching them, by use of 'chi power' or something along those lines.

Do I believe it?  No, I do not.  I think it's fake.

Do THEY believe in it?  I think many of them do, instructors as well as students.  They are not all liars, but I believe some are misled.

However, it would be wrong of me to tell them they are being misled.  That is for them to figure out - or not - as they can.

So, do no-touch knockouts work?  Depends on who you ask.  And unless I want to proclaim that everyone who claims to have experienced it a liar, the answer is both yes and no.

Hope that helps.

_There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, 
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. 
- Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio_​


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## Tony Dismukes (May 13, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> Is this stuff real?


No.



kehcorpz said:


> For example the stuff from Karate Kid where Mr.Myagi rubs his hands and then cures Daniel's injuries.


Movies have very little relation to reality.



kehcorpz said:


> But from what I know science can also not explain chi


Until you can define what you mean by "chi" and what specific physical effects you are attributing to it, there's nothing to explain.



kehcorpz said:


> and how somebody can bend a spear with his throat.



That's a magic trick. Dull blade, super-bendy shaft, the flat of the tip is wedged against the top of the performer's breastbone and his hand holds it in place while he applies pressure to start bending the so-called "spear". Once the bend has started he can release his hands because the angle of pressure is with the flat of the blade going into the breastbone rather than the point going into the throat.

Don't try it at home, though. You can probably hurt yourself if you don't know what you're doing.


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## kehcorpz (May 14, 2016)

So you guys dont believe that there are chinese monks who have some kind of super powers?
one time i watched a documentary about somebody who learned kung fu and he also trained in china and one
day he and a few others visited a monastery and there was a monk who sparred a bit with them and they were
all shocked at how strong he was and he wasnt totally muscular it was something else. when i saw this i thought
maybe this chi stuff is real and he gathered an insane amount of chi.


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## Bill Mattocks (May 15, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> So you guys dont believe that there are chinese monks who have some kind of super powers?
> one time i watched a documentary about somebody who learned kung fu and he also trained in china and one
> day he and a few others visited a monastery and there was a monk who sparred a bit with them and they were
> all shocked at how strong he was and he wasnt totally muscular it was something else. when i saw this i thought
> maybe this chi stuff is real and he gathered an insane amount of chi.



Human potential usually exceeds human performance.

When we see someone performing at or near their potential, we want to believe it is magic rather than hard work that caused it.

The magic is more training.


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## Buka (May 15, 2016)

Real? Yes, it's magic. And magic is in the eye of the beholder.


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## MAfreak (May 15, 2016)

think about how shaolin monks are on tour in theaters etc., so how its just a business for them, not their path of being poor and modest. its the same as in the kung fu movies, all fake for money. nice to watch, but not for real life.
maybe google search on "fake martial arts" will prevent you from getting charmed by dim mak, no touch ko and other stuff during your martial arts research.


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## Kenposcholar (May 15, 2016)

Kecorpz,



kehcorpz said:


> Is this stuff real?


- I do not believe that there is any mystical healing abilities. Growing up, I always wanted to believe that Qigong had some kind of magical qi solution as a cure-all medicine. Now, I believe in science and the proven medicinal cures to problems. I do love Bill's story about the aspirin since it is always possible to stumble upon a better, more reliable cure to an ailment. We can never be sure that our solutions can't be improved on farther by accidental findings. 



kehcorpz said:


> If yes, can it be scientifically explained?


- The best scientific explanation for most mystical cures is in the form of a placebo. The human body is tremendously capable of curing itself if we are set in the right mindset. Believing 100% that something will fix you is going to greatly increase the chances of seeing progress. This is different than a line of code for a program where there is only one possible solution to the code and goes to show how complex our bodies are. 



kehcorpz said:


> But from what I know science can also not explain chi and how somebody can bend a spear with his throat.


- Between how bendy the spears are, the blunt tip, the slow increase of surface area on the neck as the monk leans forward, the buckling of the spear, and other principles, there are clear scientific reasons why this is possible. There are even reasons on how they can bend rebar, walk on coals, and do many other things. Anyone can do these without going to a shaolin school to build up their qi. Here is a quick source with links: How do Shaolin monks break spears with their neck?

I, like anyone on here, want very badly for these things to be real. It's the stuff that we grew up admiring and aspiring to accomplish when we get older. The concept of qi is mystical in itself and has always intrigued many of us that have been life time martial artists. The disappointing, realistic fact is that there is no qi. There is no mystical cures. The reassuring fact is that there is always science to help us out. 

One of my favorite quotes is: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke 

_ With Respect,
                                                                                                                                                                           Kenposcholar_


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## marques (May 15, 2016)

I studied Chinese medicine at university and I don't spend time justifying the Qi. Needles and herbs just work. I did experiments. This stuff is real, but limited as everything on earth. And a lot of stuff is just fake.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 15, 2016)

marques said:


> I studied Chinese medicine at university and I don't spend time justifying the Qi. Needles and herbs just work. I did experiments. This stuff is real, but limited as everything on earth. And a lot of stuff is just fake.


If I were to go to someone who practices what you studied, how would I know what is real, in what ways it is limited, and what is fake? Are there any go-to tips to notice that the doctor is not being entirely honest about how effective his stuff is?


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## kehcorpz (May 15, 2016)

I lent a book about TCM once and wanted to read a bit in it but it was not understandable.
For example it said stuff like if you have problems with your eyes then the energy flow between heart and kidney is disturbed and so on.
This is stuff you cannot verify at all. It's simply believe it or reject it. That's what I find discouraging.
Maybe they are really right. I have visual disorders and ordinary doctors cant help with that they simply say this is harmless. 
If I knew a trustworthy TCMist I'd check him out but I'd be scared of being ripped off. My insurance also doesn't cover TCM or homeopathy.

If the speer stuff can easily be explained then I wonder why did they scientist in the documentary about martial arts not say this? They had 
somebody who does kung fu do this in their lab and connected him to cables and measured the pressure of the speer and so on.
In the end they basically said they dont know how this is possible.


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## MAfreak (May 15, 2016)

there are really bodyparts "combined" through nerval pathways to each other (for example see head's zones).
but others in acupuncture seems just to be placebo.


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## Touch Of Death (May 15, 2016)

I have always considered ancient healing arts to be a low tech hack, into things we are only now discovering today. While we cling to hard science, these guys were masters of the empirical. However, just like the martial arts "Masters" of today, there was probably always about 80%, of the healers, just winging it.


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## kehcorpz (May 18, 2016)

I wonder how did they even come up with this stuff without being able to prove any of it, like disturbed energy flow between different parts of the body?
As far as I remember that have 4 major areas in the body which everything revolves around and if the flow is disturbed then you get different problems.

But what was strange is that in this book they described precisely a problem with the eyes, which I have. I have been to many different doctors and described
it to them and most of them didn't even know it or understand it! One eye specialist said what I see is white blood cells moving in the eyes. Maybe this is it
but this does not explain why I have it. I didn't have it up until a few years ago. In the entire vision field I see small transparent objects moving around. 
It looks like this. It's really dragging me down. First I saw them only when it was very bright now I see them even when it's not bright. I see them on the computer
screen for example. 
File:Blue field entoptic phenomenon animation.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the book it was described exactly how it is. This was impressive. 
But if their explanation of the causes is correct is unknown.


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## Dirty Dog (May 18, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> I wonder how did they even come up with this stuff without being able to prove any of it,



The same way every religion in the world manages to keep convincing people that they have all the answers with zero objective evidence. It's purely a matter of faith.


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## Buka (May 18, 2016)

The OP - I am convinced this is why they made Grey Goose.


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## Andrew Green (May 18, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> For example the stuff from Karate Kid where Mr.Myagi rubs his hands and then cures Daniel's injuries.
> Is this stuff real? If yes, can it be scientifically explained?
> 
> But from what I know science can also not explain chi and how somebody can bend a spear with his throat.



No, it's nonsense.  And yes, science has no problem explaining the spear trick.  It's quite simply something that looks dangerous and scary, but really isn't.  Just like fire walking, walking on glass, beds of nails, etc.


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## Tez3 (May 19, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> acupuncture in studies was exactly as effective as placebo-therapy was
> and overcoming pain isn't always good since pain warns us of injuries and the like.



Actually science has proved acupuncture works and it works in a non mystical way. It's scientific in fact. http://apps.who.int/medicinedocs/pdf/s4926e/s4926e.pdf


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## MAfreak (May 19, 2016)

that was, what i wanted to tell with my post. well not, that it works (better than "our" medicine) but that its no real magic.


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## Th0mas (May 19, 2016)

Er... No


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## kehcorpz (May 20, 2016)

but what about stuff like breaking a metal bar with your head? i just saw this the other day in a documentary where a kung fu monk
had to do this exercise in order to become a master.  this is pretty impressive. can this all be explained?


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## Tez3 (May 21, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> but what about stuff like breaking a metal bar with your head? i just saw this the other day in a documentary where a kung fu monk
> had to do this exercise in order to become a master.  this is pretty impressive.* can this all be* *explained*?



Yes.


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## kehcorpz (May 24, 2016)

how? did they harden their skulls over time?


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## Tony Dismukes (May 25, 2016)

kehcorpz said:


> how? did they harden their skulls over time?


It's magic tricks. Misdirection, applied physics, and the right props. Sometimes there is actual physical conditioning or martial skill involved, but not to the degree that it is being presented as.


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## SenseiHitman (May 30, 2016)

We all know karate kid was a movie so everything is exaggerated.  When I am injured, I go to a massage therapist or a chiropractor. Warming up the hands by rubbing them together followed by loosing them up is a fairly common practice for those who use their hands to heal.  If I did not know any better and my chiropractor or massage therapist did a mystical looking dance before they worked on me and insisted it was part of the healing process, if I was healed I would be inclined to believe them.


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## Gnarlie (May 31, 2016)

always worth another watch

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 4, 2016)

Well qi is a real thing. But it isn't how it is portrayed in video games or movies. You won't shoot blasts of it from your hands and you won't have glowing auras around you or anything like that.


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## Tez3 (Jun 5, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well qi is a real thing. But it isn't how it is portrayed in video games or movies. You won't shoot blasts of it from your hands and you won't have glowing auras around you or anything like that.



Oh no! tell me it ain't so!


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 5, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well qi is a real thing.



It is? Then show me the physics to prove it.
At best, you can say that the existence of qi is a matter of faith, not fact.


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## Tez3 (Jun 5, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> It is? Then show me the physics to prove it.
> At best, you can say that the existence of qi is a matter of faith, not fact.



You could say 'balls'!   ( qi balls of course)


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2016)

Of course this all depends on what you think Qi is doesn't it? If you take a mystical view or a scientific view. If you think of qi as some mystical energy then.... but does the body need electric current to run.... is there energy within the systems of the body..... then it is something else.

Could it be that, like many things that come from other places, we here in the west over-romanticize them and get a few half understood translations and run with it.

Look to the World Health Organization for their studies of Qi, also Beijing University of Traditional Chinese Medicine, However I am not sure if anything from Beijing University has been translated into english

Best description of qi I have ever come across. 
Strong Qi your healthy, weak qi your sick, no qi your dead. 

I will not be debating or arguing this further


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## Ironbear24 (Jun 5, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Best description of qi I have ever come across.
> Strong Qi your healthy, weak qi your sick, no qi your dead.



Qi or chi roughly translates means blood. The flowing of blood I guess I could say means life, that is qi or chi, life. I am not a person who understands Mandarin or Cantonese and my understanding of "chi" as we know it is a life force is very minimal at best.

We talk about it tai chi and very rarely in the Shou shu dojo. I asked sifu about chi and he said you know, I'm close to 50 years old and I still don't understand everything about it. 

So I don't think it requires faith to believe in, but that really depends on what you think chi is or what chi can do. If you expect chi to give you super powers than yes that would require faith, but as simply life or life force, we are all alive so that can be taken on fact.


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## Gyakuto (Apr 12, 2022)

kehcorpz said:


> For example the stuff from Karate Kid where Mr.Myagi rubs his hands and then cures Daniel's injuries.
> Is this stuff real? If yes, can it be scientifically explained?
> 
> But from what I know science can also not explain chi and how somebody can bend a spear with his throat.


No, it’s at best, the placebo effect…which can be very powerful. But if someone is charging you a lot of money for the placebo….dodgy moral grounds.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 12, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> At best, you can say that the existence of qi is a matter of faith, not fact.


IMO, there is some validity to the qi concept, though the way it's described may not be the way it actually works. That's true of physics as well.  The mathematical formulas may describe a concept in a fashion that allows us to work with it and see results, but the reality is unperceivable.  Even in theoretical physics, some things are taken on faith.  We can declare the effect (as we perceive it), but not necessarily the direct cause.  Quantum mechanics is confusing and often contradictory, but the models seem to explain some reality, even if we don't know just how it works.

Qi may not be real on its own, but if we _faith_fully apply its concepts and results are observed (technique execution or health-wise), does this not give some life and reality to it?  Maybe not an actual reality, but a practical reality at least.  In a martial art sense,_ qi is a convenient way to describe a number of concepts in a fashion that allows us to effectively employ them._

Qi may sound like a lot of metaphysical, philosophical hogwash.  But so does quantum mechanics - there may be a duality where it may be true and untrue at the same time.  In any case, here is my expert final conclusion............... 

Qi is cool.


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## Gyakuto (Apr 12, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> IMO, there is some validity to the qi concept, though the way it's described may not be the way it actually works. That's true of physics as well.  The mathematical formulas may describe a concept in a fashion that allows us to work with it and see results, but the reality is unperceivable.  Even in theoretical physics, some things are taken on faith.  We can declare the effect (as we perceive it), but not necessarily the direct cause.  Quantum mechanics is confusing and often contradictory, but the models seem to explain some reality, even if we don't know just how it works.
> 
> Qi may not be real on its own, but if we _faith_fully apply its concepts and results are observed (technique execution or health-wise), does this not give some life and reality to it?  Maybe not an actual reality, but a practical reality at least.  In a martial art sense,_ qi is a convenient way to describe a number of concepts in a fashion that allows us to effectively employ them._
> 
> ...


The difference between Ki/Qi/Chi and quantum mechanics is that one is quantifiable, can be characterised unambiguously in a precise language (mathematics), explains the functioning of the electronics in our everyday devices… the other is quantum mechanics 😉😄

Ki/Qi/Chi is likely the attempt by the less knowledgeable  (it pre-dates proper science after all) to quantify biomechanics, biochemistry, mechanical advantage etc into something relatively understandable to the less ’sophisticated‘…I really don’t mean that in a disparaging way at all 🙏🏽


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## drop bear (Apr 12, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> IMO, there is some validity to the qi concept, though the way it's described may not be the way it actually works. That's true of physics as well.  The mathematical formulas may describe a concept in a fashion that allows us to work with it and see results, but the reality is unperceivable.  Even in theoretical physics, some things are taken on faith.  We can declare the effect (as we perceive it), but not necessarily the direct cause.  Quantum mechanics is confusing and often contradictory, but the models seem to explain some reality, even if we don't know just how it works.
> 
> Qi may not be real on its own, but if we _faith_fully apply its concepts and results are observed (technique execution or health-wise), does this not give some life and reality to it?  Maybe not an actual reality, but a practical reality at least.  In a martial art sense,_ qi is a convenient way to describe a number of concepts in a fashion that allows us to effectively employ them._
> 
> ...



No. There is a difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence.

Qi isn't justified by the stories of people who have experienced it.

I use this video on dowsing to explain the difference.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 12, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> IMO, there is some validity to the qi concept, though the way it's described may not be the way it actually works. That's true of physics as well.  The mathematical formulas may describe a concept in a fashion that allows us to work with it and see results, but the reality is unperceivable.  Even in theoretical physics, some things are taken on faith.  We can declare the effect (as we perceive it), but not necessarily the direct cause.  Quantum mechanics is confusing and often contradictory, but the models seem to explain some reality, even if we don't know just how it works.
> 
> Qi may not be real on its own, but if we _faith_fully apply its concepts and results are observed (technique execution or health-wise), does this not give some life and reality to it?  Maybe not an actual reality, but a practical reality at least.  In a martial art sense,_ qi is a convenient way to describe a number of concepts in a fashion that allows us to effectively employ them._
> 
> ...


So basically it's a fine example of the placebo effect.


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## Steve (Apr 12, 2022)

drop bear said:


> No. There is a difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence.
> 
> Qi isn't justified by the stories of people who have experienced it.
> 
> I use this video on dowsing to explain the difference.


For what it’s worth, I have no problems with anecdotes. I think the problem is when people want anecdotes to be believed without evidence, particularly when the story is a little out there.  What I mean is, it’s not the anecdote that’s the problem.  It’s the lack of independently verifiable, objective evidence.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> For what it’s worth, I have no problems with anecdotes. I think the problem is when people want anecdotes to be believed without evidence, particularly when the story is a little out there.  What I mean is, it’s not the anecdote that’s the problem.  It’s the lack of independently verifiable, objective evidence.


I don't really think anyone is disagreeing with this. Because if there is independently verifiable, objective evidence, it's not really an anecdote.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 13, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> So basically it's a fine example of the placebo effect.


You misunderstand.  My apologies.  I'll try to better explain, starting with repeating my main point.  "Qi is a convenient way to describe a number of physiological concepts in a fashion that allows us to effectively employ them."  Here is a rough example of the kind of thing I'm referring to:

Warm moist air meets cool dry air.  There is low pressure meeting high pressure.  Convection currents are created causing strong updrafts which cause high speed rotation.  These are all actual things happening.  A complex system we simply refer to as a tornado.  If we substitute certain physiological (and other) functions for the physical weather related functions in this example, we have a system we can simply refer to as "qi."

These functions include breathing, circulation, electrochemical processes, some body dynamics and mental attitude. When all these are combined in a harmonious controlled way we have something that may be referred to as "qi," having the practical effect of increased energy generation and flow.  (And perhaps a sum greater than its parts? - synergy?)  

So we have cause and effect, not a placebo.  It's a way of describing the complex in a simplified term (like "tornado.")  This is my personal way of looking at it.  It allows me to better harness these diverse systems by allowing me to combine (and explain) them in a single holistic package.

I hope this makes things a bit more clear and down to earth.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 13, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> You misunderstand.  My apologies.  I'll try to better explain, starting with repeating my main point.  "Qi is a convenient way to describe a number of physiological concepts in a fashion that allows us to effectively employ them."  Here is a rough example of the kind of thing I'm referring to:
> 
> Warm moist air meets cool dry air.  There is low pressure meeting high pressure.  Convection currents are created causing strong updrafts which cause high speed rotation.  These are all actual things happening.  A complex system we simply refer to as a tornado.  If we substitute certain physiological (and other) functions for the physical weather related functions in this example, we have a system we can simply refer to as "qi."
> 
> ...


Not really. Not at all, even. Until you can present identifiable, objective, repeatable evidence, using something that actually resembles the scientific method, it's just a placebo. Right up there with faith healing and voodoo.


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## Steve (Apr 13, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't really think anyone is disagreeing with this. Because if there is independently verifiable, objective evidence, it's not really an anecdote.


This entire forum is stories and anecdotes.  Some are objectively supportable and others are not.


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## Steve (Apr 13, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not really. Not at all, even. Until you can present identifiable, objective, repeatable evidence, using something that actually resembles the scientific method, it's just a placebo. Right up there with faith healing and voodoo.


Faith healing, voodoo, and a lot of self defense training.  Exactly.


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## Buka (Apr 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> Faith healing, voodoo, and a lot of self defense training.  Exactly.


The question remains, Who do that voodoo?


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## Steve (Apr 13, 2022)

Buka said:


> The question remains, Who do that voodoo?


You remind me of the man.


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## Gyakuto (Sep 25, 2022)

When the word ‘secret’ is put before anythin, you should be weary of it’s claims…🤔…except the secret service…they’re real. My postman was in the secret service. He can kill with the corner of a brown paper envelop, he tells me.


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