# Gathering of the Snakes



## bushidomartialarts (May 17, 2007)

So I was going over Gathering of the Snakes the other day.

Bad guy in front punching, bad guy in back on approach.

Step one:  go offline to 2:00, block the punch, put the hurt on front guy.

Step two:  move front guy between you and the back guy.  put further hurt on the front guy.

Step three: move over or around front guy and alternate between putting the hurt on the back guy and the front guy.


So here's my question:  If I've neutralized the front guy and set him up as a meat shield between me and the back guy, why in hells would I step back _between_ my attackers and _bracket myself_?

Seriously, I'm very fond of American Kenpo but what on earth is up here?


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## michaeledward (May 17, 2007)

Good Question. 
Quite a reasonable question and quite a reasonable conclusion. 

We do it that way, because that is the way it is written.  

Look to the ideas presented in the two man techniques rather than the embryonic self-defense, prescribed for prescribed situations.

The two man techniques in American Kenpo teach us how to use multiple weapons simultaneaously in different directions. They teach us how to use aggressor's as environmental objects - using a bad guy as a blocking device. They teach us how to deal with multiple attackers at the same height, high or low, and at differing heights, one high, one low, as well as differing ranges. Also, how to consider the hands and feet as more equally weighted weapons.

Well ... I think so anyhow. 

And besides ... when are you ever going to get two bad guys to attack you just the way it is written - for any of the two man techniques.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 17, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> So here's my question: If I've neutralized the front guy and set him up as a meat shield between me and the back guy, why in hells would I step back _between_ my attackers and _bracket myself_?
> 
> Seriously, I'm very fond of American Kenpo but what on earth is up here?


 
Realistically you wouldn't.  You should have maimed or killed attacker one and/or circled attacker 2 to use him as the new "meat shield".  The Two man techniques do a number of things.....

1) Worst Case Scenario - the environment requires you to stay between the two attackers (one reason why the two man techs keep us between two attackers for an extended period of time.)

2) Teaching the concept of alternating between attackers instead of hitting one 30+ times while the other beats your head in from behind (another reason why the techs keep you between two men to emphasize this point).

3) Practicing Complicated Footwork - Check the number of twists, pivots and cross-overs used.  This increases the likelihood of tripping over the feet and is for training "hard" footwork. Not to be used in a live fire situation unless absolutely necessary. KISS rule.

4) Gaseous State of Motion - Striking Multiple attackers simultaneously (this requires you to be able to reach both of them.  To have any power for both torque much be used as it's the easiest power principle that can be used multi-directionally.  Back up Mass is harder and marriage of gravity is even harder.  Since torque is circular the most power will be at the apex of the circle.  Put the attackers on opposite sides and you have Two apexs.


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## bushidomartialarts (May 17, 2007)

Thanks for the responses, guys.

So, essentially, this is the 'not all the self-defense techniques are supposed to be used in self-defense' argument.  Could somebody help me understand why that's not just silly?  This has always struck me as one of the more dangerous kenpo myths (right along with 'the techniques are so long in case the first shot doesn't work).

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just figuring out the American Kenpo side (I'm Tracy by background and my current teacher is a Kosho guy -- by some weird string of coincidences I'm teaching at an American school).


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## MattJ (May 17, 2007)

Related thread here - 

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35075


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 17, 2007)

James and Michael...excellent posts!!!!

I have had very specific discussions about this fictional myth with several seniors, including Mr. Parker. Of course, the hard part of referencing discussions with a deceased entity is proving it. Among the people no longer with us with whom I've had this discussion, Robert Perry (one of Mr. Parkers early black belts and the founder of the Orange County, CA, IKKA affiliate from back in the early-mid 60's), and SGM Parker. Both said the same thing: The techniques teach us the skills we are to apply intuitively and creatively to each individual attacker, depending specifically on circumstance. Not meant to be used verbatim, long or short version. They are miniature learning labs to demonstrate how those concepts and principles play out under the influence of *circumstantial contingencies*.

Among the living with whom I've had kindred discussions, Mr. Chap'el (Los Angeles IKKA charter holder under Mr. Parker & Long Beach Internationals coordinator for the last more-than-a-decade of Mr. Parkers life), Mr. Conatser (longtime student and friend of Mr. Parker, travelling teaching partner with Mr. Parker for seminar circuit, and couch fixture in the Parker living room), Mr. LaBounty (another very old kenpoist, whose physical longevity is a mystery to all since we're sure he actually dates back to the pre-historic times), and Mr. Hale (long-time kenpo student, studio owner under the direct guidance of Mr. Parker, excellent kenpoist, and an interesting paradox as a super nice guy who is also super dangerous...kind of a bearded, grinning, potentially sadistic Clark Kent).

It's not a kenpo myth; it's kenpo. It's even in Mr. Parkers written materials (Secrets of Chinese Karate, Infinite Insights 1 & 5), that once you own the lessons in the techniques, you should move to a spontaneous phase in your kenpo development. *The techniques should ultimately teach you HOW to move, why, and which patterns of movement do best for which relationships to your opponents positioning and target availability.* Your own mastery and creativity should move to the forefront in the heat of combat, replacing learned techs with on-the-spot made up ones that fit each specific circumstance perfectly.

Mr. Parker tried multiple metaphors to make this point, and still many won't see it...most often by choice. Music: A song is not the music; it is merely an arrangement of music. Music theory allows one to learn all about full notes, half notes, quarter notes, writing and reading music. Once they own the language of music, you can hear, read or write Bach, the Beatles, or Fitty cent, and flow seamlessly in and out of each. Each song is just an arrangement of concepts and principles, demonstrating how music can be played in a 4/4 or 3/4, waltz or jazz, etc. One learns these things, but as a Jazz player, uses their knowledge and experience to jam, not spend their lives playing the same written pieces. Scales are for practicing, not enjoyment. You use them for warm up and tuning, not performance. Language study was another example he often used. We don't communicate with a memorized phrasebook, though the phrasebook may demonstrate for us how laws of syntax govern sentence formation for proper grammar and communication.

Techniques are simply individual songs or phrases that demonstrate for us how certain words or notes can come together for a desired effect, based on circumstantial contingencies.

Try this: Get a Barron's phrasebook, and spend a month communicating with family and friends at work and play using ONLY phrases from the book. If it's not in the book, you don't get to say it. Because that's not how it's written. Your wife will leave you, your job will fire you, and your friends will stop taking your calls. It's not a playbook for life; just a demonstration of how words ought to work together in certain contexts.

Same with the self-defense techniques in kenpo. Learn to piece combinations together that utilize the language of motion to dominate an attacker, and are circumstantially appropriate.

I hope that helps, though I know many will stay with "kenpo is the techniques" until the sun burns out. It's easier that way, and as Mr. Parker said to me, it's a nice copout when the artist fails...to be able to blame the art, rather than their understanding of, and flexibility within, the skills the art teaches. (after I told him about how I got my face punched in trying to use Grip of Death verbatim, instead of improvising with spontaneous use of kenpo concepts and principles).

Be good,

Dave


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 17, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> Thanks for the responses, guys.
> 
> So, essentially, this is the 'not all the self-defense techniques are supposed to be used in self-defense' argument. Could somebody help me understand why that's not just silly? This has always struck me as one of the more dangerous kenpo myths (right along with *'the techniques are so long in case the first shot doesn't work)*.
> 
> I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just figuring out the American Kenpo side (I'm Tracy by background and my current teacher is a Kosho guy -- by some weird string of coincidences I'm teaching at an American school).


 
The term "Self Defense Technique" is used because it's a "catch all" term and easy to use.  It's alot easier than saying "Principle, Concept and Application Study Lesson Number 118 of 154".  But that's what the Self Defense Techniques really are....classroom lessons.  And just like any coursework can some of them be applied directly....Yes the simpler ones.  But largely you have to take what you get from the lessons and apply them.  Just like what I learned in school and applied at work doing research.  The techniques and procedures I learned in the lab are functional....but to be a good researcher I had to mix and match the procedures as the situation demanded and sometimes create new procedures and protocols from my existing knowledge base and experience.

The Bolded is BS myth at it's finest.  The longer techniques work on the premise (and a losse one at that) that the first shots didn't work so you continue.  Thisis nonsense.  If the first don't work it's because you're not doing your job and your skill isn't going to miraculously increase at shot number 300 when it sucked at shot number 5.  The reason they are so long is to increase the difficulty level.  After you have had someone do 5 and 10 shot combinations for years it becomes childs play.  How do you keep it difficult (and thus keep them paying for more)?  Make the combinations longer.  Also there are some "new" moves in the longer techniques for those too lazy to "look" for them earlier or just missed them the first time.  I was reading a blog the other day about the Kenpo extensions containing "new" moves.  The moves presented in the blogs were described as not showing up before the extensions.  I just scratched my head as I went through the base system and saw where these moves already were there waiting for anyone willing to really look at it.  But if you missed them the first time, you'll find them in the extended moves.


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## Ray (May 17, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> The Bolded is BS myth at it's finest.  The longer techniques work on the premise (and a losse one at that) that the first shots didn't work so you continue.


I tend to agree with you, and I think larning to follow-up is important.  For example, I have a glass jaw, but have seen a couple people who had chins of iron...

(Yup, I probably need to work on my neck muscles).


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## SL4Drew (May 17, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> You should have * * *circled attacker 2 to use him as the new "meat shield".


 
:lol:


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## Doc (May 17, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Realistically you wouldn't.  You should have maimed or killed attacker one and/or circled attacker 2 to use him as the new "meat shield".  The Two man techniques do a number of things.....
> 
> 1) Worst Case Scenario - the environment requires you to stay between the two attackers (one reason why the two man techs keep us between two attackers for an extended period of time.)
> 
> ...


That's a really good post James.


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## Doc (May 17, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> The term "Self Defense Technique" is used because it's a "catch all" term and easy to use.  It's alot easier than saying "Principle, Concept and Application Study Lesson Number 118 of 154".  But that's what the Self Defense Techniques really are....classroom lessons.  And just like any coursework can some of them be applied directly....Yes the simpler ones.  But largely you have to take what you get from the lessons and apply them.  Just like what I learned in school and applied at work doing research.  The techniques and procedures I learned in the lab are functional....but to be a good researcher I had to mix and match the procedures as the situation demanded and sometimes create new procedures and protocols from my existing knowledge base and experience.
> 
> The Bolded is BS myth at it's finest.  The longer techniques work on the premise (and a losse one at that) that the first shots didn't work so you continue.  Thisis nonsense.  If the first don't work it's because you're not doing your job and your skill isn't going to miraculously increase at shot number 300 when it sucked at shot number 5.  The reason they are so long is to increase the difficulty level.  After you have had someone do 5 and 10 shot combinations for years it becomes childs play.  How do you keep it difficult (and thus keep them paying for more)?  Make the combinations longer.  Also there are some "new" moves in the longer techniques for those too lazy to "look" for them earlier or just missed them the first time.  I was reading a blog the other day about the Kenpo extensions containing "new" moves.  The moves presented in the blogs were described as not showing up before the extensions.  I just scratched my head as I went through the base system and saw where these moves already were there waiting for anyone willing to really look at it.  But if you missed them the first time, you'll find them in the extended moves.


Preach James.


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## Doc (May 17, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> James and Michael...excellent posts!!!!
> 
> I have had very specific discussions about this fictional myth with several seniors, including Mr. Parker. Of course, the hard part of referencing discussions with a deceased entity is proving it. Among the people no longer with us with whom I've had this discussion, Robert Perry (one of Mr. Parkers early black belts and the founder of the Orange County, CA, IKKA affiliate from back in the early-mid 60's), and SGM Parker. Both said the same thing: The techniques teach us the skills we are to apply intuitively and creatively to each individual attacker, depending specifically on circumstance. Not meant to be used verbatim, long or short version. They are miniature learning labs to demonstrate how those concepts and principles play out under the influence of *circumstantial contingencies*.
> 
> ...


Guess I can go back to work. Nothing to say here.


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## Doc (May 17, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> Good Question.
> Quite a reasonable question and quite a reasonable conclusion.
> 
> We do it that way, because that is the way it is written.
> ...


You guys are on a roll.


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## kenpoworks (May 17, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> And besides ... when are you ever going to get two bad guys to attack you just the way it is written - for any of the two man techniques.


 
Just the 2 man techs !, never been atacked by the book yet!

Hey Doc, did you fet my last email about travel arrangements?
Rich


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## Doc (May 17, 2007)

kenpoworks said:


> Just the 2 man techs !, never been atacked by the book yet!
> 
> Hey Doc, did you fet my last email about travel arrangements?
> Rich



Yep! Check your email.


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## Doc (May 17, 2007)

Doc said:


> Guess I can go back to work. Nothing to say here.



Actually that part about Dennis being a "Couch fixture" is pretty good and worthy of note.


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## HKphooey (May 17, 2007)

As always, K.I.S.S.  - Keep it short and solid.

Extensions are for women with bad hair!


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## profesormental (May 18, 2007)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> As always, K.I.S.S.  - Keep it short and solid.
> 
> Extensions are for women with bad hair!



HAHAHAHAHAAA!!! That's funny!!!!

THe way I learned KISS was Keep it Sweet and Simple!

Preety much this is what I tell my students that the techniques are.

In high stress training they do similar things to the technqiues yet they just keep moving and acting upon the uke until it is controlled as wanted.

Nice posts.

Juan M. Mercado


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