# WC Footwork and Mobility



## TMA17 (Oct 23, 2017)

Thought this was really good and so important to WC.


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## Danny T (Oct 23, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> Thought this was really good and so important to WC.


We don't hit we crash, we don't step we crash. Foot placement is important.


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## geezer (Oct 23, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> Thought this was really good and so important to WC.



Footwork must become so natural and functional that it happens spontaneously. But I don't really click with the explanation here. We train differently.

If someone presses our center with a palm as demonstrated, we use their force to move our center aside (rather than backward), maintaining forward intent. Even if we must yield backward, the analogy I prefer is that of a compressed spring. What is stated in this video is far less clear to me!


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## Parky (Oct 24, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> Thought this was really good and so important to WC.



This is how I was taught to move. There is no footwork in the WC I practice. Move the Center and forget about the feet. The feet know what to do. Everything begins from the Center. A subtle, but different, approach to movement. Certainly not everyone's cup of tea.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 24, 2017)

To look at the footwork and mobility, you have to look at the basic training. Does your style train:

- 1 step 3 punches.
- 1 step 2 punches.
- 1 step 1 punch.
- 2 steps 1 punch.
- 3 steps 1 punch.
- Jump forward from 15 feet away.
- Jump backward to 10 feet away.
- ...

Here is an example.






This form may take 1/2 the basketball field to train. Many useful footwork and mobility are in it. From 0.41 - 0.43, the "running punches" footwork is included.


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## hkreporting (Nov 6, 2017)

I'm baffled when people say there's no footwork in WC.  Firstly, Yip Man talked about the importance of footwork and kicking and there are WC maxims about this I believe. Secondly, we need to go back to the forms to see that WC is full of footwork -- wooden dummy and knife form are good examples. Long pole and BJ too. Of course Chum Kiu. The stance in SLT is mainly for training structure, not a fighting stance. The key is learning the applications from the forms for leg sweeps, takedowns, angling, distancing, strategic retreating, etc.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 6, 2017)

hkreporting said:


> I'm baffled when people say there's no footwork in WC.  Firstly, Yip Man talked about the importance of footwork and kicking and there are WC maxims about this I believe. Secondly, we need to go back to the forms to see that WC is full of footwork -- wooden dummy and knife form are good examples. Long pole and BJ too. Of course Chum Kiu. The stance in SLT is mainly for training structure, not a fighting stance. The key is learning the applications from the forms for leg sweeps, takedowns, angling, distancing, strategic retreating, etc.


----------------------------------
Lots of folks really have not learned good wing chun footwork!!


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## DaveB (Nov 6, 2017)

hkreporting said:


> I'm baffled when people say there's no footwork in WC.  Firstly, Yip Man talked about the importance of footwork and kicking and there are WC maxims about this I believe. Secondly, we need to go back to the forms to see that WC is full of footwork -- wooden dummy and knife form are good examples. Long pole and BJ too. Of course Chum Kiu. The stance in SLT is mainly for training structure, not a fighting stance. The key is learning the applications from the forms for leg sweeps, takedowns, angling, distancing, strategic retreating, etc.



I think he was talking in terms of mental intention, ie. Think about moving my centre to x spot rather than think of moving my feet.


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## Danny T (Nov 6, 2017)

Footwork is foot placement and is a very important component. Move your center and don't use footwork...let's see what happens.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 6, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Footwork is foot placement and is a very important component. Move your center and don't use footwork...let's see what happens.


Wisdom.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 6, 2017)

This type of footwork looks more practical to me for WC movement. See the footwork at the 27:30 mark





The lean back that was in the original video goes against one of my teaching of stances:

You can only retreat as far as your rear foot.
If both feet are side by side then the retreat distance is zero when a person steps back.  You can see proof of this in the OP's video. Watch where his stance begins and where his feet end.  One moves back while the other stands in place.  The closer the feet are together the shorter the retreat will be.  A longer stance will allow a longer retreat.

The guy in the OP's videos confuses shuffle while in stance with, jumping forward or backward in the stance.  Similar movement to the Wing Chun guy in the top video





Side view of shuffling.  It's possible to do the same shuffle with a smaller stance but the maximum distance for retreat will still be as far as the rear foot. Trying to move beyond that will turn it into more of a hop where it's almost like jumping.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 6, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


>



I like this footwork. When you move your leg in a curve, if you can turn your shin bone outside, you can use your shin bone to "smash" your opponent's leading leg and destroy his rooting.

The foot turning is shown in this picture.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like this footwork. When you move your leg in a curve, if you can turn your shin bone outside, you can use your shin bone to "smash" your opponent's leading leg and destroy his rooting.
> 
> The foot turning is shown in this picture.


This is one of the drills we use to train multiple techniques at once. The move that you pointed out trains the following.

shuffling movement while in horse
taking angles, building up leg muscle, leg endurance and coordination (when the feet come together)
stepping inside the lead leg
stepping behind our opponents leg
bumping into an opponent to knock them off balance
the movement for thrust punch
and breaking root.
7 different techniques that I know of use that same movement.  The one technique that you pointed we train on each other, but at a slow pace so not to get injured. It can be a brutal root break depending on how it catches the lead leg and how much weight your opponent has on it.  I rarely hear people talk about as you stated.  I thought the karate guys would be all into it because they have similar movement when they step into bow.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> bumping into an opponent to knock them off balance.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. The training is pretty hard. You have to run your shin bone into a small tree trunk daily.

Not sure this is one of the WC footwork though. I'm a bit afraid to mention non-WC skill in a WC thread after I have been labeled as a "troll".


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is exactly what I'm talking about. The training is pretty hard. You have to run your shin bone into a small tree trunk daily.
> 
> Not sure this is one of the WC footwork though. I'm a bit afraid to mention non-WC skill in a WC thread after I have been labeled as a "troll".


Lol. I'm going to find a WC practitioner doing similar footwork drills so we don't get in trouble.


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## DaveB (Nov 7, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Footwork is foot placement and is a very important component. Move your center and don't use footwork...let's see what happens.


Again, it's more about not getting caught up on foot placement than a literal statement of not using the feet.


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## obi_juan_salami (Nov 7, 2017)

Some wing chun footwork


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## Danny T (Nov 7, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Again, it's more about not getting caught up on foot placement than a literal statement of not using the feet.


I understand and even agree on the premise of not thinking about footwork but one must have the foot movement, positions, and stance structure developed. He even talks of having no stance in fighting just move. Again I can agree with that for stances are fleeting, they are but a moment in time. However, the practitioner needs points of transitions where the center can be directed in many possible directions. If the feet are not in the proper positions that will curtail the possibilities, even leaving the practitioner vulnerable.

The statement that there is no footwork or that we don't need footwork is just plain wrong.
The movement of one's center is how we walk; which is really nothing more than a controlled fall. We don't think about walking or using our feet we just do. I believe that is the concept he is putting forth and agree in the premise within a particular range or distance of movement. Not all fighting, even in wc, will be within the confined range he is expressing in the video.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2017)

Danny T said:


> However, the practitioner needs points of transitions where the center can be directed in many possible directions. If the feet are not in the proper positions that will curtail the possibilities, even leaving the practitioner vulnerable.


Just to add to this.  It's possible by take away an opponents options just by denying him the footwork and placement that he needs in order to execute that option.  Everything is born from the root (foot placement / stance).


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## Danny T (Nov 7, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Just to add to this.  It's possible by take away an opponents options just by denying him the footwork and placement that he needs in order to execute that option.  Everything is born from the root (foot placement / stance).


Absolutely!!


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Some wing chun footwork


 A little off topick: Interesting technique to deal with the thrust punch.  The only problem is that thrust punches aren't thrown like that in application.  They are usually mixed in with a series of other punches and kicks.  It's a much closer range punch than what it looks like when drilled. I have never thrown a thrust punch from that distance.  My understanding of the thrust punch is that it works off the concept that even if you retreat you'll still get it.  If I was a Wing Chun person I would probably train to work that technique with a boxer low jab.  The only reason I mentioned this is because the footwork will be off.  You would need to use different footwork to deal with a thrust punch and the technique that is shown will most likely not be the same for thrust punch.  The footwork looks valid for what is shown but I'm pretty sure it would change if the punch was thrown realistically.  I understand they can on work with what they have. Other than the footwork looks solid from someone on the outside of WC





I watched some of their other videos and came across this one.  Students like the one at 3:49 are awesome to have.  They step out of that "one punch" training that I don't like.  They move around and change things up and that's where you can see the real footwork vs the training and drilling footwork.  At 3:49 you can see his footwork shuffle and his stance is longer.  The same guy that moves around lengthens his stance as well at 4:31


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## geezer (Nov 7, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Footwork is foot placement and is a very important component. Move your center and don't use footwork...let's see what happens.



Yes!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Some wing chun footwork


At 0.06, his right leg is between his opponent's legs, his left leg then move to the outside of his opponent's right leg. This will open his groin area for his opponent's right leg. Even his opponent leans back, his opponent's right leg can still kick out. I have not seen this kind of footwork that exist in other MA systems. You either move through your opponent's front door, or you move through his side door. It doesn't make sense to move right leg into your opponent's front door and then move left leg into his side door.

Here is an example - He leans his body back. Your punch cannot reach to his head, but his leg can still reach to your groin.


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## wckf92 (Nov 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is an example - He leans his body back. Your punch cannot reach to his head, but his leg can still reach to your groin.



is the posture above a training posture in CMA? Or a method of kicking? We have something similar in my WC.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> is the posture above a training posture in CMA? Or a method of kicking? We have something similar in my WC.


For some kicks, you lean your upper body forward to add your body weight behind your kick. For some kicks, you lean your upper body back to avoid punch when you kick back. To lean upper body back as far as you can is part of this training. It just prove that even if your opponent's body is leaning back, he can still kick.


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## obi_juan_salami (Nov 7, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> A little off topick: Interesting technique to deal with the thrust punch.  The only problem is that thrust punches aren't thrown like that in application.  They are usually mixed in with a series of other punches and kicks.  It's a much closer range punch than what it looks like when drilled. I have never thrown a thrust punch from that distance.  My understanding of the thrust punch is that it works off the concept that even if you retreat you'll still get it.  If I was a Wing Chun person I would probably train to work that technique with a boxer low jab.  The only reason I mentioned this is because the footwork will be off.  You would need to use different footwork to deal with a thrust punch and the technique that is shown will most likely not be the same for thrust punch.  The footwork looks valid for what is shown but I'm pretty sure it would change if the punch was thrown realistically.  I understand they can on work with what they have. Other than the footwork looks solid from someone on the outside of WC
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Hi there thanks for the comment. You are right however these clips are mostly taken of students drilling the techniques not against what i guess you would call 'live' attacks which we do practice as well. The footwork remains the same thought and is versitile, closing in should the opponent retreat etc.


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## obi_juan_salami (Nov 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> At 0.06, his right leg is between his opponent's legs, his left leg then move to the outside of his opponent's right leg. This will open his groin area for his opponent's right leg. Even his opponent leans back, his opponent's right leg can still kick out. I have not seen this kind of footwork that exist in other MA systems. You either move through your opponent's front door, or you move through his side door. It doesn't make sense to move right leg into your opponent's front door and then move left leg into his side door.
> 
> Here is an example - He leans his body back. Your punch cannot reach to his head, but his leg can still reach to your groin.



It might be hard to see in the video but the knees are kept close together protecting the groin. Also, everytime you move no matyer the technoque or position you are open in one way or another. Its up to your training and skill to cover those gaps should you need to.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> It might be hard to see in the video but the knees are kept close together protecting the groin. Also, everytime you move no matyer the technoque or position you are open in one way or another. Its up to your training and skill to cover those gaps should you need to.


Of course this is just for discussion. 

If he uses his 

- right shin bone to press against the inside of his opponent's right leg, or 
- left shin bone to press against the outside of his opponent's right leg, 

he can avoid that concern. The WC YJKYM can be used to do that job - build leg bridge. I believe we are talking about 100% WC technique here.


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## obi_juan_salami (Nov 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Of course this is just for discussion.
> 
> If he uses his
> 
> ...



Of course that is an option as well. One of many


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Of course that is an option as well. One of many


In WC thread, we have talked a lot about "sticky hand". We don't talk much about "sticky leg". It's the same principle.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> At 0.06, his right leg is between his opponent's legs, his left leg then move to the outside of his opponent's right leg. This will open his groin area for his opponent's right leg. Even his opponent leans back, his opponent's right leg can still kick out. I have not seen this kind of footwork that exist in other MA systems. You either move through your opponent's front door, or you move through his side door. It doesn't make sense to move right leg into your opponent's front door and then move left leg into his side door.
> 
> Here is an example - He leans his body back. Your punch cannot reach to his head, but his leg can still reach to your groin.


I saw that as well. It becomes a risk if someone lifts their knee to help maintain distance.  I just blew it off and assumed the strikes were strong enough to knock the person of balance or that the strikes trigger the body's natural response to turn away. 

It's difficult for me to tell because there is no foot work from the demo guy.  He just stands there and take it and doesn't make any effort to evade.  I guess it's a down side to demos.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> For some kicks, you lean your upper body forward to add your body weight behind your kick. For some kicks, you lean your upper body back to avoid punch when you kick back. To lean upper body back as far as you can is part of this training. It just prove that even if your opponent's body is leaning back, he can still kick.


Muay Tai  teeps are like that.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Hi there thanks for the comment. You are right however these clips are mostly taken of students drilling the techniques not against what i guess you would call 'live' attacks which we do practice as well. The footwork remains the same thought and is versitile, closing in should the opponent retreat etc.


I'll see if I have any videos that show a thrust punch in action.  Then you can imitate the distance and the punch.  From there you can see if your footwork changes.


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## obi_juan_salami (Nov 7, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll see if I have any videos that show a thrust punch in action.  Then you can imitate the distance and the punch.  From there you can see if your footwork changes.



Sounds good


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## DaveB (Nov 8, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Some wing chun footwork



The stuff they are doing is only working because they know what's coming.

When I think of wing chun footwork this is the opposite of what I think of in that it's reactive. Proactive positioning is IMO key to making close southern kung fu work.


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## obi_juan_salami (Nov 8, 2017)

DaveB said:


> The stuff they are doing is only working because they know what's coming.
> 
> When I think of wing chun footwork this is the opposite of what I think of in that it's reactive. Proactive positioning is IMO key to making close southern kung fu work.




 Some are techniques being drilled so yes they know whats coming. But there are parts of the video where it is completely random. We also train with random attacks and the footwork works. Flattering actually that you think its all rehersed haha


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## DaveB (Nov 8, 2017)

obi_juan_salami said:


> Some are techniques being drilled so yes they know whats coming. But there are parts of the video where it is completely random. We also train with random attacks and the footwork works. Flattering actually that you think its all rehersed haha



It was meant as niether flattery nor criticism, simply a point about what is shown in the video.

They may not always be pre set exercises, but you must be able to see how the staging is very different to free fighting? 

Reading what is coming from a static opponent and knowing there'll be no follow through is very different to how one will hopefully go on to employ that footwork.


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## TMA17 (Dec 28, 2017)




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## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2017)

TMA17 said:


>


Best explanation I've seen in a long time.


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## KPM (Dec 29, 2017)

Not bad!  But he does make one wrong statement.  He says something to the effect that "Wing Chun pivots on the heels not on the toes.  We want to spin the guy away, not move away from him."   In my Wing Chun we pivot on the K1 point near the balls of the feet.  But we still keep a 50/50 weight distro and are not moving away from the opponent.  We can "spin the guy away" just as easily as someone pivoting on the heels.  And if you think about it, to pivot on the heels means you have to have more weight back on your heels.  And if you are receiving the guy's incoming pressure just prior to "spinning" him away, the more weight that is back on your heels at the time the more risk you run of being off-balanced yourself.   A football lineman does not meet the rush of the opposing line when the ball is snapped by being back on his heels!  

As far as when to use a sidestep vs. the pivot when dealing with an on-rushing opponent.....this depends upon timing and distance, which I don't think he talked about much at all.  If the opponent is at a little bit of distance away from you, then you can time your movement and sidestep AS you engage and pivot.  In my Wing Chun, the sidestep IS a pivot. This gets you off the line of his rush AS you spin him away.  If done right there is no way he can "track" you.  But if you are already engaged with the opponent and he is right in front of you then you may not have time to do much of a sidestep.  So as you feel his incoming force, you pivot to "roll it off."


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## KPM (Dec 29, 2017)

Sorry! Double post!


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 29, 2017)

KPM said:


> Wing Chun pivots on the heels not on the toes. We want to spin the guy away, not move away from him." In my Wing Chun we pivot on the K1 point near the balls of the feet.


I've heard this from some Wing Chun lineages so it's not completely wrong.  It's just one of those statements that needs to use the word "Some..."  From an outsider looking in.  Wing Chun tends to get caught into "THIS IS HOW REAL WING CHUN IS DONE." By not saying "Some Wing Chun schools" he stuck to an absolute.  In my school we are taught to do things from the heels but it's not expected for us to do everything from the heel.  Sometimes it's from the ball of the foot, sometimes it's from the heel.  Fighting is fluid and reactions to fighting must be similar.

My rule for stances/weight distribution is the higher the stance, the more I should be on my toes.  The lower the stance the more I should be on my heels or preferable an even weight distribution one the foot if possible.  It's just body mechanics and some things in terms of weight distribution on the feet works better within different stance ranges.


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