# These are the hyung Hwang Kee knew:



## Muwubu16858

I asked my teacher, and from the list of hyung in Hwang Kee's Soo Bahk Do Dae Gam, GM Hwang only knew:

                              Kicho 1-3
                              Pyung Ahn 1-5
                              Bal Chae Dae & So(Bassai)
                              Naihanji 1-3
                              Jindo
                              Ship Soo
                              Rohai(Matsumura version)
                              Wang Shu
                              Jion
                              Ee Ship Sa
                              Oh Ship Sa Bo
                              Kong Sang Goon Dae
                              So Rim Jang Kwon
                              Tae Geuk Kwon

There were a few others that i couldnt remember what he said. The ones he knows are the ones he showed in the book, and the few that he explains without pictures after tae geuk kwon. The others listed in his book at the beginning of the hyung section were kata known not to him, but that he had seen before by other kwan founders who had brought them back from Japan after WWII. He listed them, but went on to create his own hyung (chil sung and yuk ro), like most style founders do after years of practicing hyung from other styles. Nothing new, just recreation of old (a lot more chinese influence in his new hyung, in stead of okinawan).


----------



## rmclain

Muwubu16858 said:


> I asked my teacher, and from the list of hyung in Hwang Kee's Soo Bahk Do Dae Gam, GM Hwang only knew:
> 
> Kicho 1-3
> Pyung Ahn 1-5
> Bal Chae Dae & So(Bassai)
> Naihanji 1-3
> Jindo
> Ship Soo
> Rohai(Matsumura version)
> Wang Shu
> Jion
> Ee Ship Sa
> Oh Ship Sa Bo
> Kong Sang Goon Dae
> So Rim Jang Kwon
> Tae Geuk Kwon
> 
> There were a few others that i couldnt remember what he said. The ones he knows are the ones he showed in the book, and the few that he explains without pictures after tae geuk kwon. The others listed in his book at the beginning of the hyung section were kata known not to him, but that he had seen before by other kwan founders who had brought them back from Japan after WWII. He listed them, but went on to create his own hyung (chil sung and yuk ro), like most style founders do after years of practicing hyung from other styles. Nothing new, just recreation of old (a lot more chinese influence in his new hyung, in stead of okinawan).


 

Thank you for posting this.

I find it very interesting that he has only two Chinese forms listed (Sorim Jang Kwon and Tae Geuk Kwon), when his primary influence was supposed to be Chuan-fa training in China.  Seems these two forms are eluding the senior MDK instructors nowadays.

R. McLain


----------



## Chizikunbo

rmclain said:


> Thank you for posting this.
> 
> I find it very interesting that he has only two Chinese forms listed (Sorim Jang Kwon and Tae Geuk Kwon), when his primary influence was supposed to be Chuan-fa training in China.  Seems these two forms are eluding the senior MDK instructors nowadays.
> 
> R. McLain



Master Dan Segerra has more than once advised that Hwang Kee is said, among the senior yudanja, and others to have known over 100 forms...

--josh


----------



## exile

rmclain said:


> Thank you for posting this.
> 
> I find it very interesting that he has only two Chinese forms listed (Sorim Jang Kwon and Tae Geuk Kwon), when his primary influence was supposed to be Chuan-fa training in China.  Seems these two forms are eluding the senior MDK instructors nowadays.
> 
> R. McLain



Robfrom what I've read, his main MA influence was actually the Gojo-ryu style he appears to have studied under the somewhat shadowy Gogen Yamaguchi when the latter was a Japanese intelligence officer doing various somewhat unclear assignments on behalf of the military in Manchuria. I've read somewheredon't remember, but it was a reliable historical sourcethat the emphasis on the chuan fa aspect postdated the war and was intended to deflect criticism that would have attached to him on the basis of too great a Japanese influence on his MA.


----------



## Mr. Daly

Chizikunbo said:


> Master Dan Segerra has more than once advised that Hwang Kee is said, among the senior yudanja, and others to have known over 100 forms...
> 
> --josh



Josh,  Master Choung, Wha Young, (6th Dan in 1980) new about 200 hyung from various Korean (and other) styles.  He teaches several of these at different levels.

--Don


----------



## JT_the_Ninja

Mr. Daly said:


> Josh,  Master Choung, Wha Young, (6th Dan in 1980) new about 200 hyung from various Korean (and other) styles.  He teaches several of these at different levels.
> 
> --Don




Wow. That's a lot of hyung. I can't even begin to wrap my mind around that concept, knowing that many hyung, much less knowing them all well enough to teach them. I mean, even keeping the names straight would be a challenge.


----------



## mjd

I totally agree with JT, 200, wow


----------



## rmclain

Chizikunbo said:


> Master Dan Segerra has more than once advised that Hwang Kee is said, among the senior yudanja, and others to have known over 100 forms...
> 
> --josh


 
Interesting.  I wonder why he didn't pass them along?Mr. Daly,Wow!  I didn't know there were 200 hyung from Korean martial arts systems to chose from.  (ITF, ATA, WTF, old kwan katas)  I never took the time to add up and get a total.  It would be interesting to see his list.Exile,I never heard that Hwang Kee was a student of Gogen Yamaguchi.  His form list appears to not be from the Goju-Ryu lineage.  Could you provide more information?R. McLain


----------



## Chizikunbo

exile said:


> Robfrom what I've read, his main MA influence was actually the Gojo-ryu style he appears to have studied under the somewhat shadowy Gogen Yamaguchi when the latter was a Japanese intelligence officer doing various somewhat unclear assignments on behalf of the military in Manchuria. I've read somewheredon't remember, but it was a reliable historical sourcethat the emphasis on the chuan fa aspect postdated the war and was intended to deflect criticism that would have attached to him on the basis of too great a Japanese influence on his MA.



He exile,
I'm surprised no one has bitten this one yet.
Hwang Kee never met, nor trained under Gogen Yamguchi...this is pure fiction, it was spouted off by Len Losik who is less than credible in anything he writes...he even went as far as to trace pictures out of SBD TSD Vol.2 for his book on hyung...

In the past there has been tons of untruth written and construed about the Moo Duk Kwan anf Hwang Kee...If you purchase Hwang Kees "History of the Moo Duk Kwan" he notes that he was first exposed to martial arts by a shop keeper who was involved in a scuffle with some youth, he used Taekkyun to defend himself. Hwang Kee asked to be his student afterward, however the shop keeper declined saying he was too young...HK was discouraged but found a place where he could watch the man practice and would mimic his movements. While working he was in Manchuria where he met Chinese Master Yang Kuk Jin (Young Jen Kou) and studied from him for around 2 years he studied Yang Ryu Tae Keuk Kwon (Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan), and Dahm Doi Ship Ee Ro (12 Sprining Legs) (in his first Moo Duk Kwan School he taught a style called Hwa Soo Do, which was teaching what he learned from Master Yang)  I think it was in 1936 he was working on the Railroad in Seoul, and often spent hours in the library, he would read about astrology, astronomy, philosophy, and martial arts mainly. Here he found "texts on Japanese karate" and studied from them...this is where TSD gets is form from, Pyong Ahn (Heian/Pinan), Balsae (Passai), Nae Bo Jin (Tekki/Naihanchi), Amhak (Chito), Ship Soo (Jutte),  No Pae (Rohai), Kong San Kun (Kwanku/Kusanku), Ship Sam Soi (hangetsu/seishan), Yunbi (empi/wangshu), Sa Oon (Jion), Oh Ship Sa Bo (Gojushiho)...all of these are Okinawan/Japanese forms...Hwang Kee took them and made them Korean, added the kicking of Taekkyun, and the large hip movements, philosophy etc. and Tang Soo Do was born. Sometime later Hwang Kee discovered the Mu Ye Dobo Tonji (Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts) in the Kwon Bup section (Fist Methods) he studied further, and refined his knowledge in creating his final art form of Soo Bahk Do, which combines all of the knowledge he had acquired. 

Hwang Kee's only formal training was approx. two years under Master Yang, everything else came form books, and watching other people (first taekkyun, then other practitioners in Korea after 1945)...

take care,
--josh


----------



## Chizikunbo

Mr. Daly said:


> Josh,  Master Choung, Wha Young, (6th Dan in 1980) new about 200 hyung from various Korean (and other) styles.  He teaches several of these at different levels.
> 
> --Don


Interesting...thanks for the info....


I think there is a difference between Knowing a form, and being able to go through a form...I dont think we can ever truly know one form let alone 200 LOL, but this does have alot to say that there is more there lol ;-)
--josh


----------



## rmclain

Chizikunbo said:


> He exile,
> I'm surprised no one has bitten this one yet.
> Hwang Kee never met, nor trained under Gogen Yamguchi...this is pure fiction, it was spouted off by Len Losik who is less than credible in anything he writes...he even went as far as to trace pictures out of SBD TSD Vol.2 for his book on hyung...
> 
> In the past there has been tons of untruth written and construed about the Moo Duk Kwan anf Hwang Kee...If you purchase Hwang Kees "History of the Moo Duk Kwan" he notes that he was first exposed to martial arts by a shop keeper who was involved in a scuffle with some youth, he used Taekkyun to defend himself. Hwang Kee asked to be his student afterward, however the shop keeper declined saying he was too young...HK was discouraged but found a place where he could watch the man practice and would mimic his movements. While working he was in Manchuria where he met Chinese Master Yang Kuk Jin (Young Jen Kou) and studied from him for around 2 years he studied Yang Ryu Tae Keuk Kwon (Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan), and Dahm Doi Ship Ee Ro (12 Sprining Legs) (in his first Moo Duk Kwan School he taught a style called Hwa Soo Do, which was teaching what he learned from Master Yang) I think it was in 1936 he was working on the Railroad in Seoul, and often spent hours in the library, he would read about astrology, astronomy, philosophy, and martial arts mainly. Here he found "texts on Japanese karate" and studied from them...this is where TSD gets is form from, Pyong Ahn (Heian/Pinan), Balsae (Passai), Nae Bo Jin (Tekki/Naihanchi), Amhak (Chito), Ship Soo (Jutte), No Pae (Rohai), Kong San Kun (Kwanku/Kusanku), Ship Sam Soi (hangetsu/seishan), Yunbi (empi/wangshu), Sa Oon (Jion), Oh Ship Sa Bo (Gojushiho)...all of these are Okinawan/Japanese forms...Hwang Kee took them and made them Korean, added the kicking of Taekkyun, and the large hip movements, philosophy etc. and Tang Soo Do was born. Sometime later Hwang Kee discovered the Mu Ye Dobo Tonji (Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts) in the Kwon Bup section (Fist Methods) he studied further, and refined his knowledge in creating his final art form of Soo Bahk Do, which combines all of the knowledge he had acquired.
> 
> Hwang Kee's only formal training was approx. two years under Master Yang, everything else came form books, and watching other people (first taekkyun, then other practitioners in Korea after 1945)...
> 
> take care,
> --josh


 

That's the story I know as well.

What I am surprised about is there is credit given to the text, "Mu Ye Dobo Tonji," for other techniques he incorporated into his system.  This text is really just an encyclopedia of martial art, not an instructional manual.

R. McLain


----------



## Chizikunbo

rmclain said:


> That's the story I know as well.
> 
> What I am surprised about is there is credit given to the text, "Mu Ye Dobo Tonji," for other techniques he incorporated into his system.  This text is really just an encyclopedia of martial art, not an instructional manual.
> 
> R. McLain



Yep, KJN relates this story in his "History of the Moo Duk Kwan"...

GM was fascinated by the Mu Ye Dobo Tongji, and studied the information contained in is to "resurrect" Soo Bahk Ki, his 'Hwa Sun' hyung is actually his rendition of the MYDBTJ Kwon Bup Bo form (which is actually Qi Ji Kwang's 32 Postures)...the Yuk Rho are his interpretation of the information...Chil Sungs are his combined knowledge, and the Ship Dahn Kum, well we dont know much about them, they are a set of 10 forms, that are said to contain vital point strikes with delayed effects...personally I have my doubts..
--josh


----------



## Muwubu16858

Master Dan Segerra has more than once advised that Hwang Kee is said, among the senior yudanja, and others to have known over 100 forms...

--josh06-26-2007 04:57 PM

For this one, all I hae to say is no he didn't. The only forms that Hwang Kee really knew, other than the ones he created, are all listed in the SBD Dae Gam in the Hyung section. No, not the list on the first pages, but the Hyung Demonstrated thru Tae Geuk Kwon, and the ones he explains with no pictures after TGK. The others that he mentioned in the list in the beginning of the hyung section are all ones he didn't know, but mentioned for the purpose of making them known to us. My teacher learned the other hyung not used by Hwang Kee from his uncle, Yoon Kwe Byung (Korea Karate-Do Association, Ji Do Kwan). If you can ever get your hands on it(and know how to read and understand korean), there is a book on Karate-Do that has many important hyung that were taught in Jidokwan by Grandmaster Yoon Kwe Byung. I will put a cover shot of it up on my avatar tomarrow sometime. It is by far a good reference, except for the fact that it doesnt tell you the foot directions for the hyung.


----------



## rmclain

Muwubu16858 said:


> Master Dan Segerra has more than once advised that Hwang Kee is said, among the senior yudanja, and others to have known over 100 forms...
> 
> --josh06-26-2007 04:57 PM
> 
> For this one, all I hae to say is no he didn't. The only forms that Hwang Kee really knew, other than the ones he created, are all listed in the SBD Dae Gam in the Hyung section. No, not the list on the first pages, but the Hyung Demonstrated thru Tae Geuk Kwon, and the ones he explains with no pictures after TGK. The others that he mentioned in the list in the beginning of the hyung section are all ones he didn't know, but mentioned for the purpose of making them known to us. My teacher learned the other hyung not used by Hwang Kee from his uncle, Yoon Kwe Byung (Korea Karate-Do Association, Ji Do Kwan). If you can ever get your hands on it(and know how to read and understand korean), there is a book on Karate-Do that has many important hyung that were taught in Jidokwan by Grandmaster Yoon Kwe Byung. I will put a cover shot of it up on my avatar tomarrow sometime. It is by far a good reference, except for the fact that it doesnt tell you the foot directions for the hyung.


 
Yoon Kwe-byung also created his own bong hyung and wrote a bong-sul/hyung textbook when he lived in Japan (dedicated it to his instructors Toyama Kanken and Mabuni Genwa).  Did your instructor pass along Yoon Kwe-byung's bong hyung?

R. mcLain


----------



## Chizikunbo

In Soo Bahk Do Tang Soo Do Volume 1 Hwang Kee lists the following forms (starting at #26)...I believe he knew all of these forms by one way or another, I dont feel he would have listed them only for purposes of them being listed. After all this was a text about HIS art. If we remember in his 1995 History of the Moo Duk Kwan GM tells us that while working on the railroad in Seoul beginning 1936, he spent most of his time studying the the library, he studied texts on Japanese Karate so texts is plural, I believe this would have given GM plenty of forms to learn, because lets say he studied Gichin Funakoshi's 1922 Ryukyu Kenpo: Karate he would have learned many forms in detail. Also he was among the other Kwan leaders often and probably learned forms here and there from them, and also by watching demonstrations...Today there are lots of things not taught in the MDK that exist, and lots of things that have been all together dropped...



Chil Sung Il Rho
Chil Sung Ee Rho
Chil Sung Sam Rho
Chil Sung Sa Rho
Chil Sung Oh Rho
Chil Sung Yuk Rho
Chil Sung Chil Rho
Hwa Sun 1(demonstrated in volume 	2)
Hwa Sun 2 (taught to childans 	recently, and demonstrated in atlantic city by GM himself)
Yuk Rho Chodan
Yuk Rho Eedan
Yuk Rho Samdan
Yuk Rho Sadan
Yuk Rho Ohdan
Yuk Rho Yukdan
Ship Dahn Kuhm 1
Ship Dahn Kuhm 2
Ship Dahn Kuhm 3
Ship Dahn Kuhm 4
Ship Dahn Kuhm 5
Ship Dahn Kuhm 6
Ship Dahn Kuhm 7
Ship Dahn Kuhm 8
Ship Dahn Kuhm 9
Ship Dahn Kuhm 10
Kicho Il Bu
Kicho Ee Bu
Kicho Sahm Bu
Pyong Ahn Chodan
Pyong Ahn Eedan
Pyong Ahn Samdan
Pyong Ahn Sadan
Pyong Ahn Ohdan
Bassai Dae
Passai So
Chin Do
Oh Ship Sa Bo
Wang Shu  	
Tjin
So Rim Jang Kwon
Dam Toi
Kong San Kun Dae
Kong San Kun So
Rohaee Chodan
Rohaee Eedan
Rohaee Samdan
Ee Ship Sa
Woon Shu
Tsan Tjin
Jun Jang
Ssi San
Ssi Boai
Bae Rin Bba
SsanSsi Bbai
Seisan
Sojin
Sai Hoo Ah
Goo Reung Hoo Ah
Jin Toi
Ji-on
Tae Keuk Kwon
Nae Bboo Jin Chodan
Nae Bboo Jin Eedan
Nae Bbo Jin Samdan

 The next volume will be devoted to advanced forms and sparring techniques: Naihanji Eedan, Naihanji Samdan, Sip Soo, Jindo, Kong San Kun, Sei Shan, Wangshu, Jion, O-sip Sa Bo, Tae Keuk Kwon, So Rim Jang Kwon, S-ojin, Sippal, E-sip sa, Woon Shu


 So we can add to the above list of forms  



Sippal
Sip Soo

 I also find it interesting that volume two would have started with Naehanji Eedan, and yet Naihanji Chodan was not shown in volume 1....We also know that at one time Hwang Kee was teaching Bassai So, I know this because it was related to Master Penfil by Kwan Jang Nim C.I. Kim, but he stopped teaching it. I think that the statement that GM knew more than 100 forms would have also included his moo pal dan kuhm, and moon pal dahn kuhm exercises.


----------



## JT_the_Ninja

Wow, that's a lot of forms. My KJN, Master C.S. Kim, trained under Hwang Kee, indirectly. I wonder how many of those he learned. 

Even so, the curriculum the ITF teaches is pretty full; as has been said, it's fairly difficult to master any given form completely, let alone the 18 I know (15 open-hand + 3 bong hyung). I'm cool with the number of hyung I know, though I'm still itching for 2 years to go by so I can test for sam dan and (provided I pass) learn kong son deh (kong sang kun, by another name), and then later on lo hai. 

Then again, I was itching to learn pyong ahn cho dan as a yellow belt testing for orange belt. It's always that process of wanting to know more that keeps you going with martial arts.


----------



## exile

Chizikunbo said:


> He exile,
> I'm surprised no one has bitten this one yet.
> Hwang Kee never met, nor trained under Gogen Yamguchi...this is pure fiction, it was spouted off by Len Losik who is less than credible in anything he writes...he even went as far as to trace pictures out of SBD TSD Vol.2 for his book on hyung...
> take care,
> --josh



Josh, this is interesting... but I didn't get this from Len Losik. My source here is Dakin Burdick, who wrote, in his 1997 _Journal of Asian Martial Arts_ article, `People and events of Taekwondo's formative years',  that

_`Robert Shipley (1975) believes Hwang "probably studied a hard style of karate similar to Shorin" as well [as guoshu]. This is supported by Hancock (1994), who notes that Hwang claimed Yamaguchi Gogen "as a personal friend". Yamaguchi, nicknamed `The Cat'... was also in Manchuria in 1939, so Hwang could have studied with him at that time: Yamaguchi was a Japanese intelligence officer stationed near the Russian border and Hwang also was near the Russian border....(he has mentioned being at the town of Manchuli). From an examination of his writings, Hwang certainly seems to have been much more influenced by Japanese karatedo than by Japanese guoshu.' _ 

The reference to Hancock is an article `The history of Tang Soo Do' in _Inside Tae Kwon Do_ 3.2, p.17. You'll notice that the name Len Losik doesn't arise at all in this discussion. There is a link to the article here: http://www.usadojo.com/articles/tang-soo-do-forms.htm

Apart from your distrust of Mr. Losik as a source, do you have any concrete evidence that falsifies Burdick's line of reasoning here? When you say that `Hwang Kee never met, nor trained under Gogen Yamguchi...this is pure fiction', I have to ask whether,  in view of Hancock's citation to the contrary, there's any reason to believe that Hancock&#8212;who is _quoting_ HK in his article about his personal friendship with GY&#8212;is also indulging in `pure fiction'?

So far as the role of taekkyon in the formation of _any_ modern KMA is concerned, the article by Steve Capener at

http://www.bluewavetkd.com/images/GoalSheets/capeneressay.pdf

seems to me to give reason enough for the greatest skepticism about any such claims. Taekkyon, hardly a martial art at the best of times (see Stanley Henning's 2000 _JAMA_ article on ancient and modern KMAs for discussion of the persistent confusion of taekkyon with the ancient takkyon `push-the-shoulders', a completely different technical element), was a terminal case by the turn of the 20th century.


----------



## Muwubu16858

06-29-2007 06:12 PMChizikunboIn Soo Bahk Do Tang Soo Do Volume 1 Hwang Kee lists the following forms (starting at #26)...I believe he knew all of these forms by one way or another, I dont feel he would have listed them only for purposes of them being listed. After all this was a text about HIS art. If we remember in his 1995 History of the Moo Duk Kwan GM tells us that while working on the railroad in Seoul beginning 1936, he spent most of his time studying the the library, he studied texts on Japanese Karate so texts is plural, I believe this would have given GM plenty of forms to learn, because lets say he studied Gichin Funakoshi's 1922 Ryukyu Kenpo: Karate he would have learned many forms in detail. Also he was among the other Kwan leaders often and probably learned forms here and there from them, and also by watching demonstrations...Today there are lots of things not taught in the MDK that exist, and lots of things that have been all together dropped...


Chil Sung Il Rho
Chil Sung Ee Rho
Chil Sung Sam Rho
Chil Sung Sa Rho
Chil Sung Oh Rho
Chil Sung Yuk Rho
Chil Sung Chil Rho
Hwa Sun 1(demonstrated in volume 2)
Hwa Sun 2 (taught to childans recently, and demonstrated in atlantic city by GM himself)
Yuk Rho Chodan
Yuk Rho Eedan
Yuk Rho Samdan
Yuk Rho Sadan
Yuk Rho Ohdan
Yuk Rho Yukdan
Ship Dahn Kuhm 1
Ship Dahn Kuhm 2
Ship Dahn Kuhm 3
Ship Dahn Kuhm 4
Ship Dahn Kuhm 5
Ship Dahn Kuhm 6
Ship Dahn Kuhm 7
Ship Dahn Kuhm 8
Ship Dahn Kuhm 9
Ship Dahn Kuhm 10
Kicho Il Bu
Kicho Ee Bu
Kicho Sahm Bu
Pyong Ahn Chodan
Pyong Ahn Eedan
Pyong Ahn Samdan
Pyong Ahn Sadan
Pyong Ahn Ohdan
Bassai Dae
Passai So
Chin Do
Oh Ship Sa Bo
Wang Shu
Tjin
So Rim Jang Kwon
Dam Toi
Kong San Kun Dae
Kong San Kun So
Rohaee Chodan
Rohaee Eedan
Rohaee Samdan
Ee Ship Sa
Woon Shu
Tsan Tjin
Jun Jang
Ssi San
Ssi Boai
Bae Rin Bba
SsanSsi Bbai
Seisan
Sojin
Sai Hoo Ah
Goo Reung Hoo Ah
Jin Toi
Ji-on
Tae Keuk Kwon
Nae Bboo Jin Chodan
Nae Bboo Jin Eedan
Nae Bbo Jin Samdan
The next volume will be devoted to advanced forms and sparring techniques: Naihanji Eedan, Naihanji Samdan, Sip Soo, Jindo, Kong San Kun, Sei Shan, Wangshu, Jion, O-sip Sa Bo, Tae Keuk Kwon, So Rim Jang Kwon, S-ojin, Sippal, E-sip sa, Woon Shu


So we can add to the above list of forms 


Sippal
Sip Soo
I also find it interesting that volume two would have started with Naehanji Eedan, and yet Naihanji Chodan was not shown in volume 1....We also know that at one time Hwang Kee was teaching Bassai So, I know this because it was related to Master Penfil by Kwan Jang Nim C.I. Kim, but he stopped teaching it. I think that the statement that GM knew more than 100 forms would have also included his moo pal dan kuhm, and moon pal dahn kuhm exercises.06-29-2007 02:27 PM

Let me begin with numbers 1-25 are not in the Soo Bahk Do Dae Gam(1970) so although GM knew them, they were his own. As for Hyung he actually learned, however which way he learned them, be it by person or book....these are what he knew:


Kicho Il Bu                    Tae Geuk Cho Dan                    Yes
Kicho Ee Bu                   Tae Geuk Ee Dan                     Yes
Kicho Sahm Bu               Tae Geuk Sam Dan                   Yes
Pyong Ahn Chodan          Pyung Ahn Cho Dan                 Yes
Pyong Ahn Eedan           Pyung Ahn Ee Dan                    Yes
Pyong Ahn Samdan         Pyung Ahn Sam Dan                 Yes
Pyong Ahn Sadan           Pyung Ahn Sa Dan                    Yes
Pyong Ahn Ohdan           Pyung Ahn Oh Dan                    Yes
Bassai Dae                    Pal Chae Dae                           Yes
Passai So                      Pal Chae So (if same as CS Kim's, then No)
Chin Do                         Jin Dang(Jindo is Okinawan name) Yes
Oh Ship Sa Bo                Oh Ship Sa Bo                          Yes
Wang Shu                     Wang Shu                                Yes
Tjin                              Ja Yoon (Jiin is Okinawan name)   No
So Rim Jang Kwon           So Rim Jang Kwon                      Yes
Dam Toi                        Dam De                                    Yes
Kong San Kun Dae          Kong Sang Goon Dae                   Yes
Kong San Kun So            Kong Sang Goon So                     No
Rohaee Chodan   No Pae Cho Dan(HK learned Matsubayashi Rohai)No
Rohaee Eedan                No Pae Ee Dan                             No
Rohaee Samdan              No Pae Sam Dan                          No
Ee Ship Sa                     Ee Ship Sa                     Just Direction
Woon Shu                     Woon Soo                                 Yes
Tsan Tjin                       Sam Jung (Sanchin is Ok. Name)   No
Jun Jang                       Jun Jang (Tensho in Karate)          No
Ssi San                         Ship Sam (Matsumura style)         No
Ssi Boai                         Ship Pal  (just direction, not the meaning)
Bae Rin Bba            (gotta ask on this one again(?Suparinpei?)) No
SsanSsi Bbai                  Sam Ship Pal                              No
Seisan                          Jung Sam(Itosu Sip Sam)             Yes
Sojin                            Jang Jin (Sojin is Ok. name) Maybe Dir.
Sai Hoo Ah                     Chae Pa (Saifa in Jp/Ok)             No
Goo Reung Hoo Ah          Goo Reung Hoo Ah                       No
Jin Toi                           Ship Soo(Soo Sul is old name)      Yes
Ji-on                             Ja Eum (Jion is Jp/Ok name)         Yes
Tae Keuk Kwon               Tai Chi Chuan (Chinese Yang style) Yes
Nae Bboo Jin Chodan       Nei Bo Jin(Nai Han Ji) Cho Dan        Yes
Nae Bboo Jin Eedan         NBJ Ee Dan                                 Yes
Nae Bbo Jin Samdan        NBJ Sam Dan                               Yes
with that heres the list:

Tae Geuk 1-3
Pyung Ahn 1-5
Bassai Dae-So
Jindo
Oh Ship Sa Bo
Wang Shu
So Rim Jang Kwon
Dam De
Kong Sang Goon Dae
Rohai (Matsubayashi Ryu)
Woon Soo
Sei Shan (Matsumura style)
Ship Soo
Jion
Tai Chi Chuan
Naihanji 1-3

and the direction without meaning of Ship Pal, Ee Ship Sa and Sojin.

the original number is 25, with 3 he wasn't sure about.

remember, he learned in china, so any Jp/Ok forms he learned weren't quite the same for his as those who studied in Japan, hence the push he made to create his own(Chil Sung, Yuk Ro, etc.), which are more CHinese influenced.


----------

