# Bag Work N Speed



## thespeed99 (Feb 19, 2018)

Bag Work N Speed


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## Headhunter (Feb 19, 2018)

Swear we've seen this before


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## Danny T (Feb 19, 2018)

You are creating some bad habits...unless all you are interested in doing is short fast speed punching.


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## Buka (Feb 19, 2018)

God, I love kids. Just want to give em' a hug.


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## Swanson (Mar 22, 2018)

No technique what so ever.


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## FriedRice (Jul 18, 2018)

Danny T said:


> You are creating some bad habits...unless all you are interested in doing is short fast speed punching.



No, based on only the 3rd video being available for viewing, he's just working on speed and short punches. This is common training in Boxing and not the only way that Boxers train.


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## Danny T (Jul 18, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> No, based on only the 3rd video being available for viewing, he's just working on speed and short punches. This is common training in Boxing and not the only way that Boxers train.


Okay.

So you admit you haven't viewed the other videos...

In every video he was doing things that reinforced bad fundamentals. If one is practicing poor fundamentals over and over one is creating a bad habit. I so stated such.


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## JR 137 (Jul 18, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> No, based on only the 3rd video being available for viewing, he's just working on speed and short punches. This is common training in Boxing and not the only way that Boxers train.


Like Danny T said, the third video wasn’t the only video.  If it was one video and the rest weren’t like that, it’s obviously a drill.  When everything he did had fundamental flaws, there’s an issue.


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## FriedRice (Jul 18, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Okay.
> 
> So you admit you haven't viewed the other videos...
> 
> In every video he was doing things that reinforced bad fundamentals. If one is practicing poor fundamentals over and over one is creating a bad habit. I so stated such.



Well he deleted them, maybe because y'all scared him off.

The only video left is a common way to develop hand speed and it works.

And fundamentals is not necessarily how someone must fight. Do you know how he fights?


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## kickillustrated (Jul 19, 2018)

Keep your hands up!


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## FriedRice (Jul 19, 2018)

kickillustrated said:


> Keep your hands up!



What if his stance is the Philly Shell?


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## Danny T (Jul 19, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> What if his stance is the Philly Shell?


Then one hand would be up and the opposite should would be pulled up against the jaw to protect it.
In the videos he wasn't using the philly shell.


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## Martial D (Jul 19, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Well he deleted them, maybe because y'all scared him off.
> 
> The only video left is a common way to develop hand speed and it works.
> 
> And fundamentals is not necessarily how someone must fight. Do you know how he fights?


I would say probably never. Everything is wrong with this from his structure, to his form, to his head position, to his slappy hooks. Sure it might be a speed drill but everything about this screams 'completely untrained'


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## FriedRice (Jul 20, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Then one hand would be up and the opposite should would be pulled up against the jaw to protect it.
> In the videos he wasn't using the philly shell.



Nope.

1.  What do you mean "one hand would be up and the opposite should be pulled up against the jaw".....this just means both hands are up and therefore, it's not the Philly Shell.

2.  I guess you've never trained this type of hand speed exercise? This is how it's usually done. No one does these exercises while maintaining proper stance and guard.











3. You're probably not familiar with the differences between the Philly Shell and the Mayweather Crab Defense.


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## FriedRice (Jul 20, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I would say probably never. Everything is wrong with this from his structure, to his form, to his head position, to his slappy hooks. Sure it might be a speed drill but everything about this screams 'completely untrained'



Incorrect.

The video shows someone training for hand speed and this is one of the most effective & common way to do so in Boxing. Again, I'm going by this one video only as the others are unavailable.  And based on this 1 video, you cannot come to the conclusion that he's "completely untrained". What's wrong with his structure, form and head position?


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## Martial D (Jul 20, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> The video shows someone training for hand speed and this is one of the most effective & common way to do so in Boxing. Again, I'm going by this one video only as the others are unavailable.  And based on this 1 video, you cannot come to the conclusion that he's "completely untrained". What's wrong with his structure, form and head position?


Are you being serious right now? If so, this isn't going to be a productive discussion even if I break down everything wrong with this, if not, way to be committed to the cause.


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## Danny T (Jul 20, 2018)

short fast speed punching





FriedRice said:


> Nope.
> 
> 1.  What do you mean "one hand would be up and the opposite should be pulled up against the jaw".....this just means both hands are up and therefore, it's not the Philly Shell.


Oops...that should have been 'shoulder'. I apologize for the spelling mistake. The shoulder is pulled up against the jaw and is used for deflecting with a rolling of the body.



FriedRice said:


> 2.  I guess you've never trained this type of hand speed exercise?


I was referring to your question, "What if his stance is the Philly Shell?"
He wasn't using the Philly Shell which isn't a stance but an upper body posture.
He could transition in and out of the shell but in the videos he wasn't using it.
We also use the punching drill he was demonstrating. But what he was doing has fundamental discrepancies other than just for speed. Hence my statement; "You are creating some bad habits...unless all you are interested in doing is short fast speed punching."



FriedRice said:


> This is how it's usually done. No one does these exercises while maintaining proper stance and guard.


So you agree it is only in the interest for short fast speed punching.


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## FriedRice (Jul 21, 2018)

Danny T said:


> I was referring to your question, "What if his stance is the Philly Shell?"
> He wasn't using the Philly Shell which isn't a stance but an upper body posture.



Man, you just described a "stance".



> He could transition in and out of the shell but in the videos he wasn't using it.



Boxers can use different stances....or better yet, call them guards.



> We also use the punching drill he was demonstrating. But what he was doing has fundamental discrepancies other than just for speed. Hence my statement; "You are creating some bad habits...unless all you are interested in doing is short fast speed punching."



You just contradicted your statement by saying that you do the same thing as he did. Again, how do you know that this is all that he does?



> So you agree it is only in the interest for short fast speed punching.



Well if you want to dissect everything, then no....because this exercise complements other techniques involved in hand striking.


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## FriedRice (Jul 21, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Are you being serious right now? If so, this isn't going to be a productive discussion even if I break down everything wrong with this, if not, way to be committed to the cause.



I just showed you 2 videos of this exercise being used? One was freakin' Manny Pacquiao.....Manny's not good enough for you? You can find Maywayther, Tyson, etc. all doing this also. This is a common exercise used by Boxers and even Kickboxers. I guess you don't train these MA's?


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## Danny T (Jul 22, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Man, you just described a "stance".
> 
> Boxers can use different stances....or better yet, call them guards.


Boxers use different stances 'and' different guards.
For me stance is referring to how one positions their legs/feet, weight distribution. Guard is different to stance. One can be in a Rt lead (stance), left lead, low crouch stance and be using and number of guards like the Philly Shell (originally known as the Crab or the Michigan Defense) or a peek-a-boo or a conventional guard, or the ear muff, or the cross arm.
If I were sitting on a stool and held my upper body and arms in the position of the philly shell would I be in a stance or sitting?




FriedRice said:


> You just contradicted your statement by saying that you do the same thing as he did.


Huh?
I said "we use the punching drill he was demonstrating." 
And we do...use the drill. Strictly as a speed drill. But not exactly as he showed.



FriedRice said:


> Again, how do you know that this is all that he does?


I don't...never said I did.
I was referring specifically to the videos he posted.


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## Martial D (Jul 22, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I just showed you 2 videos of this exercise being used? One was freakin' Manny Pacquiao.....Manny's not good enough for you? You can find Maywayther, Tyson, etc. all doing this also. This is a common exercise used by Boxers and even Kickboxers. I guess you don't train these MA's?


I'm starting to think that OP must be your sock account. I can't see any other reason for you to be this defensive.

Yes, what op video contained was superficially similar to those two videos. Minus the structure, form, technique, foot movement and full body involvement, with a smattering of wrongly thrown hooks for good measure. And not even that fast.


It's ok man, just keep practicing. Martial arts are a marathon not a Sprint.


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## FriedRice (Jul 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I'm starting to think that OP must be your sock account. I can't see any other reason for you to be this defensive.



You're getting all paranoid over a post on some forum? Sad.



> Yes, what op video contained was superficially similar to those two videos. Minus the structure, form, technique, foot movement and full body involvement, with a smattering of wrongly thrown hooks for good measure. And not even that fast.



My bet is that you're a beginner and don't understand why this exercise is used. 



> It's ok man, just keep practicing. Martial arts are a marathon not a Sprint.



It's funny that you think Manny Pacquiao needs to train like, I guess you? lol.


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## FriedRice (Jul 22, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Boxers use different stances 'and' different guards.
> For me stance is referring to how one positions their legs/feet, weight distribution. Guard is different to stance. One can be in a Rt lead (stance), left lead,



Yeah, I changed what I said to guard.



> and be using and number of guards like the Philly Shell (originally known as the Crab or the Michigan Defense) or a peek-a-boo or a conventional guard, or the ear muff, or the cross arm.



There are some differences between Philly Shell and Crab.



> If I were sitting on a stool and held my upper body and arms in the position of the philly shell would I be in a stance or sitting?



Yeah, I changed what I said to guard.



> Huh?
> I said "we use the punching drill he was demonstrating."
> And we do...use the drill. Strictly as a speed drill. But not exactly as he showed.


 


> I don't...never said I did.
> I was referring specifically to the videos he posted.



Then what's wrong with what he's doing in this one video?


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## Danny T (Jul 22, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Then what's wrong with what he's doing in this one video?


In every video as in this one he never protected his chin/jaw with either of his hands or his shoulders.
kickillustrated posted, "Keep your hands up!" 

*Bag Work N Speed *is what the title to the thread is and in the original post he wrote "Bag Work N Speed".
Every video was something along the line of what is in the one video you saw. I don't know what other training he does or doesn't do. Going on the videos he showed stating "bag work n speed" there were some fundamental flaws as to his bag work and some of the drills he demonstrated. So I stated, "You are creating some bad habits...*unless* all you are interested in doing is short fast speed punching." This means that if all he was doing was speed drills then good. But if his interest was in doing good fundamentals with his bag work he was creating bad habits such as keeping his hands low, not protecting his jaw with his shoulder, dropping his hands to throw hooks, never recovering his hands to his jaws, not rotating the body, not transferring his body weight over his front foot just to name a few. You didn't see those videos by your own admission.


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## Martial D (Jul 22, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> You're getting all paranoid over a post on some forum? Sad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, pacquiao is doing just fine. The guy in the op video needs to keep practicing though, a lot.

For the record I've been boxing probably longer than you've been alive based on how you comport yourself.


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## FriedRice (Jul 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> No, pacquiao is doing just fine. The guy in the op video needs to keep practicing though, a lot.



Your vision isn't too good then, as they're doing about the same thing. Maybe it's cataract.



> For the record I've been boxing probably longer than you've been alive based on how you comport yourself.



Jane Fonda's Boxing on VHS? And congrats on being old, I guess?


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## FriedRice (Jul 22, 2018)

Danny T said:


> In every video as in this one he never protected his chin/jaw with either of his hands or his shoulders.
> kickillustrated posted, "Keep your hands up!"



I already said that you don't keep your hands up in this exercise for speed.

*



			Bag Work N Speed
		
Click to expand...

*


> is what the title to the thread is and in the original post he wrote "Bag Work N Speed".





> Every video was something along the line of what is in the one video you saw. I don't know what other training he does or doesn't do. Going on the videos he showed stating "bag work n speed" there were some fundamental flaws as to his bag work and some of the drills he demonstrated. So I stated, "You are creating some bad habits...*unless* all you are interested in doing is short fast speed punching." This means that if all he was doing was speed drills then good.




Those videos aren't there.




> But if his interest was in doing good fundamentals with his bag work he was creating bad habits such as keeping his hands low, not protecting his jaw with his shoulder, dropping his hands to throw hooks, never recovering his hands to his jaws, not rotating the body, not transferring his body weight over his front foot just to name a few. You didn't see those videos by your own admission.



How do you know all of this from just 1 video that showed him training to improve handspeed? 

How about those Wang Chungs who keep their hands ridiculously low, chin wide open and way up, no pivoting arm punches, very little weight transfer, hands never retracting to jaw.....but it's still correct based on their system.


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## Danny T (Jul 23, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I already said that you don't keep your hands up in this exercise for speed.
> 
> Those videos aren't there.


So you affirm you are basing your argument on something you haven't seen?



FriedRice said:


> How do you know all of this from just 1 video that showed him training to improve handspeed?


LOL...
I'm not. I as well as others saw the videos from when there were first posted back on Feb. 19. The videos have since been removed for some reason. My assessment, remarks, and following statements are based upon having viewed 'all' the videos in the original post. 



FriedRice said:


> How about those Wang Chungs who keep their hands ridiculously low, chin wide open and way up, no pivoting arm punches, very little weight transfer, hands never retracting to jaw.....but it's still correct based on their system.


Pointing to a completely different system and fighting style doesn't help your argument.
1. I don't know anything about Wang Chung. If you are referring to Wing Chun we can discuss your point but that has nothing to do with this discussion about a completely different style of fighting and not what was shown, demonstrated, or referenced in any of the videos originally shown (which you have not viewed).

Just for your information I have been boxing since 1966 and training in other training methods since 68. I have coached golden glovers, professional boxers, pro muay thai fighters (Dutch style and traditional) pro mma fighters, FMA stick fighters, and yes, some wing chun practitioners. My assessment and opinion came from viewing 'all' of the original videos along with my over 40 years of experience training, instructing, and coaching. Do I have all the answers...no. Am I the absolute last authority on fighting and fighting styles...no. I gave my assessment and opinion as well as others did. 


Have a nice day, hope you continue to train.


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## FriedRice (Jul 23, 2018)

Danny T said:


> So you affirm you are basing your argument on something you haven't seen?
> 
> LOL...
> I'm not. I as well as others saw the videos from when there were first posted back on Feb. 19. The videos have since been removed for some reason. My assessment, remarks, and following statements are based upon having viewed 'all' the videos in the original post.



OK, well I can't help you with that because I can only go by this 1 video, which is a legit exercise for developing hand speed. If you think this is bad for fundamentals, then Wang Chung should be a lot worse for it as I've pointed out all these rules of yours that WC breaks.



> Pointing to a completely different system and fighting style doesn't help your argument.
> 
> 1. I don't know anything about Wang Chung. If you are referring to Wing Chun we can discuss your point but that has nothing to do with this discussion about a completely different style of fighting and not what was shown, demonstrated, or referenced in any of the videos originally shown (which you have not viewed).



Yea it does, because you're trying to establish yourself as the authority of what's considered to be the fundamentals, yet  Wang Chung breaks such rules.Yet everybody still Wang Chung tonight 



> Just for your information I have been boxing since 1966 and training in other training methods since 68. I have coached golden glovers, professional boxers, pro muay thai fighters (Dutch style and traditional) pro mma fighters,



Yet you're still off on the difference between the Philly Shell and the Crab guards. 



> FMA stick fighters, and yes, some wing chun practitioners. My assessment and opinion came from viewing 'all' of the original videos along with my over 40 years of experience training, instructing, and coaching. Do I have all the answers...no. Am I the absolute last authority on fighting and fighting styles...no. I gave my assessment and opinion as well as others did.
> 
> Have a nice day, hope you continue to train.



Cool, and I disagree with you while provided videos to prove my argument....including a video of not just a Pro Boxer, but freakin' Manny Pacquiao, doing the same thing as this kid.


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## Danny T (Jul 23, 2018)

Wang Chung is a British new wave musical group that was formed in 1980. They had the hit song 'Everyone Have Fun Tonight' and has nothing to do with a martial art.

The video you showed with Pacquiao was specifically him doing some warm ups and specific hand speed drills. Which I 'agreed' with. If the original videos were promoted as only speed drills I agree there are speed drills. There were promoted as more than that. More than just speed...  Oh never mind... You are correct they are excellent example of excellent bag work. No need to refine anything with them. World class even.

The philly shell and Michigan are but variations of the crab and it is more of how one utilizes the positions vs being different postures. Here maybe this will help. Starting at 2:24


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## FriedRice (Jul 24, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Wang Chung is a British new wave musical group that was formed in 1980. They had the hit song 'Everyone Have Fun Tonight' and has nothing to do with a martial art.



Are you sure? Everybody's not Wang Chung tonight?  



> The video you showed with Pacquiao was specifically him doing some warm ups and specific hand speed drills. Which I 'agreed' with. If the original videos were promoted as only speed drills I agree there are speed drills. There were promoted as more than that. More than just speed...  Oh never mind... You are correct they are excellent example of excellent bag work. No need to refine anything with them. World class even.



Once again, there's only 1 video, and  it qualifies as a speed drill ....and he's working it on the bag. This speed drill can be worked on the bag or in the air. Video + title of post by the OP, is true and legit.



> The philly shell and Michigan are but variations of the crab and it is more of how one utilizes the positions vs being different postures. Here maybe this will help. Starting at 2:24



But in post #20, you said, "Philly Shell (originally known as the Crab or the Michigan Defense)" implying that it's the same thing but this guy in your linked video explains the difference, which is what I said..... that there are differences.


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## Danny T (Jul 24, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Once again, there's only 1 video, and it qualifies as a speed drill ....and he's working it on the bag. This speed drill can be worked on the bag or in the air. Video + title of post by the OP, is true and legit.


No...there were more. You have only seen one and you insist that I am incorrect in the totality of something you have not seen.



FriedRice said:


> But in post #20, you said, "Philly Shell (originally known as the Crab or the Michigan Defense)" implying that it's the same thing but this guy in your linked video explains the difference, which is what I said..... that there are differences.


Yep. There are differences in how the Philly Shell is utilized vs what was originally known as the Crab.
Per the conversation in the video: "when I first started talking with Floyd Mayweather Sr. that's what he always referred it to as. He'd always say 'crab'."

But then Mayweather probably doesn't know much about boxing either does he.


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## FriedRice (Jul 24, 2018)

Danny T said:


> No...there were more. You have only seen one and you insist that I am incorrect in the totality of something you have not seen.



I've already told you multiple times that based on this 1 video, what he's doing, is legit.



> Yep. There are differences in how the Philly Shell is utilized vs what was originally known as the Crab.
> Per the conversation in the video: "when I first started talking with Floyd Mayweather Sr. that's what he always referred it to as. He'd always say 'crab'."
> 
> But then Mayweather probably doesn't know much about boxing either does he.



You implied that there wasn't any difference between the Philly Shell and the Crab Defense.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 25, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I've already told you multiple times that based on this 1 video, what he's doing, is legit.
> 
> 
> 
> You implied that there wasn't any difference between the Philly Shell and the Crab Defense.


You are ridiculous.


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## JR 137 (Jul 25, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I've already told you multiple times that based on this 1 video, what he's doing, is legit.
> 
> 
> 
> You implied that there wasn't any difference between the Philly Shell and the Crab Defense.


And several of us have told you that the rest of the videos showed poor technique that was clearly not just for a specific drill.  No one’s denying that one video of one drill proves much, what everyone’s saying is their posts were taking every video into account when the videos were available to view and the OP was active here.


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## FriedRice (Jul 25, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> And several of us have told you that the rest of the videos showed poor technique that was clearly not just for a specific drill.  No one’s denying that one video of one drill proves much, what everyone’s saying is their posts were taking every video into account when the videos were available to view and the OP was active here.



But people who are arguing with me are also saying that this 1 remaining video, displays such poor techniques....which means that they're not very familiar with Boxing, because this is a very common and legit exercise for mostly, improving hand speed.


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## Danny T (Jul 26, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> But people who are arguing with me are also saying that this 1 remaining video, displays such poor techniques....which means that they're not very familiar with Boxing, because this is a very common and legit exercise for mostly, improving hand speed.


I don't believe that is correct. I may have missed it but people have been saying in the totality of 'all' the videos shown they overall show poor fundamentals. You have been arguing against the totality based upon only one video. On top of that you have been arguing against being agreed with.
Even from the very beginning it was stated 'You are creating some bad habits...unless all you are interested in doing is short fast speed punching."  "bad habits...UNLESS all you are interested in doing is short fast speed punching." This specifically means it is not bad habits if interested in doing only short fast speed punching.

You stated:
"No,..., he's just working on speed and short punches. This is common training in Boxing and not the only way that Boxers train."

So we agree it is not bad habits specifically to the one video you viewed.

But NOT to the totality of all the video showing bag work and speed work.


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## FriedRice (Jul 26, 2018)

Danny T said:


> I don't believe that is correct. I may have missed it but people have been saying in the totality of 'all' the videos shown they overall show poor fundamentals. You have been arguing against the totality based upon only one video. On top of that you have been arguing against being agreed with.
> Even from the very beginning it was stated 'You are creating some bad habits...unless all you are interested in doing is short fast speed punching."  "bad habits...UNLESS all you are interested in doing is short fast speed punching." This specifically means it is not bad habits if interested in doing only short fast speed punching.



How do you know that this is all that he does?



> You stated:
> "No,..., he's just working on speed and short punches. This is common training in Boxing and not the only way that Boxers train."
> 
> So we agree it is not bad habits specifically to the one video you viewed.



Actually, you only agreed to this after about 5+ posts of mine, arguing against you. Because you first said that the guarding hand needs to retract to the jaw after each punch.


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## Martial D (Jul 26, 2018)

Trust me the other vids showcased his 'skills' to an even greater degree than the one that remains.


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## Danny T (Jul 26, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> How do you know that this is all that he does?


Huh!!
Wait...didn't you already asked this? Yes you did and I answered it. 
I said; "I don't...never said I did.
I was referring specifically to the videos he posted."

Just in case you missed that I'll answer again for you. _*I don't...never said I did. I was referring specifically to the videos he posted.*_

I can ask the same type of question like; base on the video you were able to view do you know he does anything else? If so, how you know he does? Kinda of a ridiculous question. I think it's kinda ridiculous. Probably you don't, because you asked it. So maybe not.



FriedRice said:


> Actually, you only agreed to this after about 5+ posts of mine, arguing against you. Because you first said that the guarding hand needs to retract to the jaw after each punch.


I think you are mistaken on that.
I believe I was responding to your question in post #11 where You asked. "What if his stance is the philly shell?" that you asked in response to kickillustrated from post #10 where he stated "Keep your hands up." 
I also admit I misspelled shoulder and wrote should. My intent was to write the "opposite shoulder would be pulled up against  the jaw..." in discussing the philly shell, which the gentleman in the videos was not using. If he were to utilize such he would have to come out of the shell in order to punch as he does in the video you viewed which he very well could do however, in that video he does not do so.

This has been fun but I'm tired of it. Enjoy yourself.


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## FriedRice (Jul 27, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Huh!!
> Wait...didn't you already asked this? Yes you did and I answered it.
> I said; "I don't...never said I did.
> I was referring specifically to the videos he posted."
> ...



Then the remainder of the video that he has in this thread, is legit training techniques.



> I can ask the same type of question like; base on the video you were able to view do you know he does anything else? If so, how you know he does? Kinda of a ridiculous question. I think it's kinda ridiculous. Probably you don't, because you asked it. So maybe not.



No, because the title claims "bag work N speed", which is what hes working on (speed), on the bag.



> I think you are mistaken on that.
> I believe I was responding to your question in post #11 where You asked. "What if his stance is the philly shell?" that you asked in response to kickillustrated from post #10 where he stated "Keep your hands up."
> I also admit I misspelled shoulder and wrote should. My intent was to write the "opposite shoulder would be pulled up against  the jaw..." in discussing the philly shell, which the gentleman in the videos was not using.



You can't use the Philly Shell for this exercise, at least for what this exercise is intended for. You should know this.

Post #10, the guy said "keep your hands up." = both hands up....which was why I asked what if his stance is the Philly Shell, where both hands aren't up. Legit question.



> If he were to utilize such he would have to come out of the shell in order to punch as he does in the video you viewed which he very well could do however, in that video he does not do so.



This sentence doesn't make any sense, could you clarify?



> This has been fun but I'm tired of it. Enjoy yourself.



You said this already


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