# Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan



## OnlyAnEgg

Good Morning:

Just a quick post to say 'Hi'.  I had posted on this forum a year or so ago while I was considering taking up MA again after a hiatus from TKD.  I've been looking for a dojo on and off in the past year and found one, finally, about 15 minutes from home.  My wife, two stepchildren (f-11, m-7) and I began study of Ko Sutemi under Sensei Danny Phillips.

My question, if anyone would like to help, deals with the differences between Shotokan and Ko Sutemi.  At this time, I know that Sutemi is derived from Shotokan and Master Funakoshi.  My experience is with TKD and not the Japanese/Okinawan styles.  

Can anyone elaborate?

Thank you,

egg


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## searcher

I have found several website sthat contain information on this style.   So far thwe differences I se are in the names of the kata.   They seem to like to say that they are the nation's #1 fighting school, not really sure how they come up with that?   I will keep looking and see what I can come up with.


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## OnlyAnEgg

searcher said:
			
		

> They seem to like to say that they are the nation's #1 fighting school, not really sure how they come up with that?


I saw that, too.  That could simply be the 'We're Number 1!' mindset.  My Sensei has not made such a claim to me personally.  

egg


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## JAMJTX

There are a few concers in looking at the web site.

The "Soke" claims to be a 9th Dan in Karate.  But all it says about his training is that he learned Jujitsu from his father in 1942.  That would be quite unusual, unless his father lived in Hawaii or CA and got in with Okazaki or some of his students.  I don't know any other group that taught Jujitsu to occidentals.  It is likely that it was Judo.  Also, there is no indication of where he got his karate training, when, for how long, who his teachers were or who promoted him to 9th Dan.

If this is supposed to be some off shoot of Shotokan, it should not be too difficult to research his Shotokan background.  Ask him who his teachers were and where he got that 9th Dan.  Then contact them and ask for verification.  If it seems like some hokey organization ask back here about them.


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## OnlyAnEgg

In defence of Soke Madden, I see that his claim to The World Martial Arts Hall Of Fame is legitimate.

egg


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## Randy Strausbaugh

Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan appears to be a mixture of Shotokan with Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu.  The style has a strong emphasis on tournament competition.

Don Madden trained Tokey Hill, who won the WUKO world championships.  Tokey Hill now states that what he himself teaches is Shotokan.

I was there when Mr. Madden received his 8th or 9th dan in jujitsu.  It was at the Irish Cup tournament in the Shoemaker Center gym at OU-C.  The rank was awarded by his students.

A friend of mine dates a girl in Don Madden's karate class in Chillicothe.  He said that she claims that there is hardly any emphasis in the class on traditional karate or on self defense, just in getting ready for the next tournament (please note that this is third-hand info).

Also under the organizational banner is Seiei-kan Jujitsu, Seiei-kan Tomiki Aikido, and Seiei-kan Shaolin.

Their website is akjuteamamerica.com 

Hope this helps.


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## OnlyAnEgg

My Sensei, Danny Phillips, has so far emphasized kata, stances, kumite and basics as well as some general self-defence for children. There is no doubt the dojo competes; it does often. I simply see traditional training, as well, at this time.

egg


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## Randy Strausbaugh

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> My Sensei, Danny Phillips, has so far emphasized kata, stances, kumite and basics as well as some general self-defence for children. There is no doubt the dojo competes; it does often. I simply see traditional training, as well, at this time.
> 
> egg


Understood.  I was just conveying info which came to me about classes taught by the system's head.
If you like the style, don't worry about what others say, just go for it.  
Happy training!


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## OnlyAnEgg

Thank you and my apologies if I seemed defensive.  I appreciate the information.  I will say this thing, though:  membership in the AKJU is optional within the dojo.  If I want to be belted, however (and perhaps compete) membership is reasonably priced.  I found that interesting.


egg


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## searcher

There is nothing wrong with competition as long as you have other things to go with it and it sounds like you are getting that.   I would like to know more about Mr. Maddens karate training and who promoted him.   My opinion is if it works for you then go for it.


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## OnlyAnEgg

searcher said:
			
		

> I would like to know more about Mr. Maddens karate training and who promoted him.


As I learn more about the lineage of my Sensei and his teachers, I will gladly share it here.  My teacher frequently visits his teachers; so, I believe I will get to meet Mr. Madden, in time.

egg


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## OnlyAnEgg

While Sensei and I sparred last night, he shared some of his thoughts and definitions on Ko Sutemi with me.

First, he spoke of Ko Sutemi being an American system. Although derived from Shotokan, it is a combination of other forms designed to provide the fighter with enough resources to win.

Second, he stressed the definition of Ko Sutemi as 'small sacrifice'. I should be willing to recieve a body shot if I can throw a head shot because of it. Ko Sutemi also means 'success by all means' and positiveness.

Practicing my first kata, fu ku gata ichi, I see that it is similar to TKD's white belt kibon; therefore, similar to many first rung forms.

Sensei is very much a hand fighter. I tend to kick more than punch. He said, with a smile, he would teach me to fight properly. 

Right now, we practice with children and adults combined. I'm told that, once fall settles in, more adults will return and classes will be separated once again.


egg


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## Gene Williams

Ho-hum. Students don't award their instructors ninth dan. It is a BS organization. RUN to another dojo.


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## Andrew Green

Nah, it happens all the time.  Head of associations often get promoted by there own association.  And really, since the rank has no meaning outside of that organization, who cares?

 Gichin Funakoshi never called himself anything higher then 5th, students promoted him after he died if I remember correctly.  But there are a good deal of Shotokanees that are higher then 5th, soI'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that not everyone has been promoted by someon of higher rank then them.


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## OnlyAnEgg

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Ho-hum. Students don't award their instructors ninth dan. It is a BS organization. RUN to another dojo.


If there were nothing to counter that, I would've considered it a red flag.  There is, however, in my dojo, few red flags so far.  Emphasis is on kata, basics and effective fighting.  There is no push for rank, competition, trophies, belt-fees or the like.  This statement is qualified with 'at this time'.

egg


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## OnlyAnEgg

Tonight we learned fukugata ni (fukyugata).  I talked with the Sesei afterwards and he told me that the forms are all Shotokan.  The primary difference between Ko Sutemi and Shotokan would appear to be the competive emphasis.  We haven't done much mat work, yet; but, there will be some jujitsu when the adults begin to attend regularly again.  Apparently, summer is a relaxed time at the dojo.


Thanks to Andrew for pointing me to the forms.  It's been very helpful.

egg


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## Randy Strausbaugh

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Tonight we learned fukugata ni (fukyugata).  I talked with the Sesei afterwards and he told me that the forms are all Shotokan.


Not to contradict your sensei, but to the best of my knowledge, Shotokan doesn't practice the fukyugata (ichi or ni).  They came from Shorin Ryu.  Shotokan's fundamental forms are the Taikyoku forms, and they are different from the Fukyugata.  Also, Seiei-kan refers to the next set of forms as "Pinan" (shodan through godan), which is the designation given them in the Okinawan systems, while Shotokan calls them "Heian".  And, Funakoshi reversed the order of the first two Pinan forms when he taught them as Heian, so Pinan Shodan is Heian Nidan, and vice versa.  Where Okinawan forms utilize the cat stance (Neko-ashi Dachi), Shotokan tends to replace them with the back stance (Kokutsu Dachi).  
If you'd like to compare the two systems in terms of forms, Funakoshi's _Karate-do Kyohan_ and Shoshin Nagamine's _Essence of Okinawan Karate-do_ will give you plenty of material.


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## OnlyAnEgg

I thank you for this information.  I apologize for speaking so quickly when I could've done a bit of research first and saved you the necessity of correction.  

I admit that I may have misheard Sensei.  It's also possible that my ignorance of the comparative differences between Seieikan and other disciplines led me to misspeak.

I will find these books you noted.  I have Karate-do Nyumon and had been planning on getting Kyohan at the first opportunity.

egg


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## Randy Strausbaugh

No problem.  I'm always glad to help where I can.  After all, that's (IMHO) the best thing about these forums.  They give you the chance to share information with a wide range of practitioners.  Believe me, I've been corrected many times here and elsewhere.  I've always appreciated the learning experience.

By the way, you can find a listing of the Seiei-kan kata here. As you can see, some names associated with Japanese styles, some with Okinawan.

Keep us updated on how your training is going.  Always glad to hear from another Buckeye .


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## OnlyAnEgg

Tonight was a fine practice. Much attention to the position of the hands/arms in blocks and punches with a focus on the centerline. I have to stop myself from fully extending my arm.

Then a whirlwind through 4 kata: the two fukyugata and the first 2 Pinan. Pinan Nidan was a lot like one of the kibon from TKD. Sparring was nice and aggressive. For some reason, everyone wanted a piece of the 'old man'  It's a very young class. Three days until the next class, so, the kids, wife and I will be doing kata this weekend. Funakoshi said 100 repetitions for each before moving to the next. Sounds like good advice.

Where in Ohio, Randy?  I'm in Thornville, a little east of Columbus.

egg


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## Randy Strausbaugh

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Where in Ohio, Randy?  I'm in Thornville, a little east of Columbus.


Chillicothe.  A little bit south of nowhere .


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## OnlyAnEgg

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> Chillicothe. A little bit south of nowhere .


That's not too far at all. 

My school is having a tournament on 10/15 and you're close enough to attend if you wish.

I have not attended a tourney in which I would compete. Anyone who'd like to witness an old man strive toward a level of skill that may merit an award, please attend.

I have no further info on the nature of the tourney at this time. I will get more details Thursday at class.

egg


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## OnlyAnEgg

With school back in session, classes have been becoming a little more structured.  There is considerably more focus on dojo discipline the past couple classes.  Still not too many adults and Sensei's the only advanced belt; though I know of two other blacks that sporadically attend d/t recent injuries.

I have the structure of the first two kata memorized and am practicing daily to refine the movements and add power to the strikes and blocks.  Also, this week, I began some weight training.  Low weight un the arms and upper body with many reps in order to build up speed, heavier weight on some reps for my legs cause they've always been solid.  Now to make them more so.

The tournament is in 2 weeks and Sensei stated he wants me to compete; so, kata and kumite for me.  Kinda makes me jittery inside.  I look forward to it anyway.


egg


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## OnlyAnEgg

Last night's class was a little sketchy.  About 6 people were half an hour late.  Sensei had business to tend to at the onset; so, he gave me the class to warm up! (W00t! am I all that?)

Mostly kumite with a lot of younglings; but, at the end Sensei took us all on one at a time with me in the final slot.  My stepson, Jack, told me I looked pretty cool fighting Sensei.  That's worth the training right there.

Fukyugatas Ichi and Ni still, so far.  Tournament on Saturday.  I'm entering Kata and Kumite.  Starting to get more nervouser.


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## Navarre

You'll do fine, Egg. Having been around the tournament scene a few times, I've found it's best to take it for what it is.


A tournament isn't a fight or even a test of your abilities. Many tournaments, unfortunately, aren't fair. They are all very political, some moreso than others.

Sometimes someone feels cheated. Sometimes someone is cheated. Remember, it's just a game really.

Train as hard as you can.  Be confident, neither doubtful nor arrogant concerning your own ability. 

You only know what you know. Just like tests in school, some days you do better than others. It's not necessarily a reflection on your ability.

When I'm in a tournament, I do things to stay loose and ready. it also keeps me from sitting around mentally preoccupied about my upcoming event.

You will likely find they handle black belt weapons and katas, as well as synchronized katas, before breaking off into different rings. So, you will have a while to wait. Don't go stir crazy. Watch what you like, talk to ppl, have fun.

A tournament is a great place to meet some nice people. Enjoy it for all it offers and walk away from it wiser than you went in.  Have fun!


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## OnlyAnEgg

Domo, Navarre.  It's only nerve-wracking because it's my first tourney.  I already have heard how fickle the judges can be and I'm not going to stress over that.  I simply wish to do the best I can, regardless of the outcome.  To me, it is rather a personal test.  Medals, trophies or nothing, my finish will be based on what I feel I've done.


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## Navarre

Oh, and my advice on katas, from one who's judged quite a few hundred:

I was trained from the start to incorporate 5 elements: Power, Focus, Concentration, Balance, and Form. I certainly think all of these are vital. Being from my original system, you may have been taught the same thing.

However, don't focus too much on just these 5 elements. The biggest problem I see with lower ranked katas is that the student is too focused on proper technique, trying to show how "perfect" he/she can execute the moves. Consequently, the kata looks very stiff. After watching a few of these, it's hard to want to watch another.

Instead, remember that a kata is supposed to be simulated combat. In a fight I don't focus my mental energy on sweeping my foot in an inside arc as I slide from one zenkusta-dachi to the next, making sure I execute my reverse punch by rotating..blah, blah, blah.

Make your kata "dynamic". By that I mean put yourself into a mental state that is closer to what you would be in during a fight.  There is an intensity there that will come through. Let your techniques flow on their own, relying on your training. I would rather see a karateka who is "involved" in their own kata rather than trying to impress me with their stance.

Of course, I don't mean you should be sloppy in your technique. I'm saying that you should practice your katas for the tournament the same way.  There are times you need to break down every little aspect of a kata but, in the tournament, let that preoccupation go.

My other advice on kata is to vary the pace. Too many ppl perform the entire kata at the same speed the whole way through. Why would I be impressed just because you kaiai on one of those punches when it was like all the rest?

Like in a real fight, sometimes you move quickly and sometimes you don't.  Emphasize speed and power on important visual parts of the kata and wind down/up at other parts.

And lastly, in kata and kumite, here's a small thing that makes a big difference: Relax your shoulders. Most people, when they get tense, tighten across the shoulders and it affects everything. When the timing is right, relax the shoulders ands release the tension as if you were sighing. It helps; you'll see.


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## OnlyAnEgg

Regarding kata, arigato.  I do want the 5 elements to be present correctly.  I also want, however, the kata to be fluid and not so much like some kinda robot.  I do practice them in that fashion: 5 elements first, fluidity and naturalness second.


I see what you mean about varied pace.  I will practice tonight with that in mind.

Regarding shoulder tension.  I will need to note that during kumite.  Sensei strongly advises relaxed fists, suggesting we tense immediately before connecting a strike or block.  I have not noticed my shoulders.  It seems I'm so busy noticing everything else at this stage 

Again, thank you.

:asian:


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## Navarre

You are most welcome, Egg.  After all, you gave me the Underdog parade balloon. I figured I owed you all the help I could.  lol


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## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> You are most welcome, Egg. After all, you gave me the Underdog parade balloon. I figured I owed you all the help I could. lol


Excellent point!


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## Navarre

Hey, egg, how is your tournament training going?  Has any of my advice been helpful or have you picked up more from Saturday morning cartoons?


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## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> Hey, egg, how is your tournament training going? Has any of my advice been helpful or have you picked up more from Saturday morning cartoons?


Lol!  I only accept training from pre-1980 Chop-socky films, not Staurday toonage 

Training proceeds apace.  The night before last, I began to vary speeds in the first kata.  I'm still bringing the second up to the point where I can manipulate the pace.

The tension I have in my shoulders is still evident; though, I'm told that my arms seem more relaxed, leading (of course) to speedier hits.

I've added wrist weights during practice of blocks and strikes.  This, too, is adding some speed.

Sensei scoped the competition and dexcribed to me, during sparring, how I may prevail over my potential opponants.  I'm still nervous; but, it's my first time and no one will be gentle.

heheh...really, I'm amped


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## Navarre

I've found the scariest opponents in tournaments to be white belts and those with a rank just under 1st black.  White belts of course have little control and have wild movements. 

On the other end of the under-black-belt continuum you have these guys who are so close to black belt they can taste it. They have good technique but are so determined to show it that their opponent ends up unconscious.

Don't sweat the kumite though.  Have fun with it. A majority of your opponents will probably barge in a'swingin' like mad. Take your time and don't rush it. Work your angles and let your instincts do the rest.

Katas are worse because it's all sort of surreal. You wait forever in a group of 20, then stand "on deck" while the guy or gal before you does their kata. Then, oddly enough, I used to seem to lose all track of reality and time as soon as my name was called. 

I'd hear my name called, vaguely remember walking to the judges, doing my bow, mumbling something about fu ku i dunno, and then it seemed the whole thing was over.  Thirty second later I'm like "What happened?".

That's also a lot of what prompted my comment about speed. When I'm out there trying to "look good" I got all technical and everything became stiff.  When I relaxed my shoulders, released that tension, and got myself into the mental fight, I could then exhibit better technique. 

It also allowed for the variety in pace. I am strong in places and fluid in other. Sometimes I explode into a technique and sometimes I almost seem to take a rest; just like a real fight.

You'll do fine. I'm anxious to hear how it goes.


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## Navarre

So did relaxing your shoulders make a noticable difference in your relaxation, endurance, and awareness of your body?


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## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> So did relaxing your shoulders make a noticable difference in your relaxation, endurance, and awareness of your body?


When I thought to do it (it's not instinctual for me, yet) I felt I was quicker and more fluid.  At this stage, I need to focus on being relaxed through my shoulders and, to a lesser extent, my arms.

Endurance seemed to be no greater to me.  I admit to focusing more on landing one on Sensei than how long I'd been trying.  My endurance has, in general, grown longer since I began.

As to awareness, I'd have to say that relaxing my arms allowed me to focus attention on other aspects of the fight.  I can extrapolate from that the more I relax, the greater my awareness.  Well, that sounds better reversed: when I am tensed, part of my focus is on the place of tension.  Decreasing the tension increases awareness.


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## Navarre

Yeah, although tension will wear you down, relaxed muscles isn't going to give you better anaerobic endurance per se. But, I've found that when I'm feeling physically worn during a fight, taking a moment to step back, drop my center of gravity, and relax my body will allow me to burst out with another technique instead of standing in place gasping.

I think you're right on with relaxation as it relates to awareness. My sensei always talked about "relaxed power", taking time for your body to relax and flow then explode when you desire it to. 

It's my "flow like water. strike like fire" thing. You were already doing that by keeping your fists relaxed until making contact. Now you're seeing it reflected in your arms and thus your hitting speed. It'll all go forward from here.

Hmmm, all of a sudden it seems like you're my first Ko Sutemi student in 6 years. ... No bowing required.  The invoice for your monthly class fee is in the mail.  lol


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## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> Hmmm, all of a sudden it seems like you're my first Ko Sutemi student in 6 years. ... No bowing required. The invoice for your monthly class fee is in the mail. lol


arigato :asian: 

It seems that Ko Sutemi Seieikan is not a frequently spoken-of art.  It is, therefor, excellent to have someone to talk to.


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## Navarre

Despite a few of the disparaging comments here, Ko Sutemi is not bunk. It is also not solely for tournaments.

It is true that most classes seem to focus a lot on tournaments but I have found most of my techniques to apply readily in real situations.  Like any art, it has more to do with your teacher and what you put into it than it does with what label you put on it.

There are techniques I no longer emphasize in my integrated system, such as the rising block. It was hard for me to let go of one of "The Basics" but I didn't find it to be as effective in real life as other protective techniques. There was therefore no need to force students to practice it endlessly. However, almost every principle in the art has served me well. 

I also found that those principles made my transition to a more fluid art (in my case ju-jitsu) fairly easy.  In my 12 years of ju-jitsu training I have seen many practioners of other arts (some higher ranked than myself) struggle greatly with the concept on angled attacks, flow, and relaxed power.

By this statement I am not suggesting that the important thing was that I move to another art anyway because my karate training still gives me many advantages that my ju-jitsu colleagues don't have.  

Always take what works and discard what doesn't. Of course, I know right now you don't have that option nor will your sensei suddenly stop teaching rising blocks just because of my opinion. That's okay. For now, train hard in everything because it all comes together. In time you will find what works for you.


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## OnlyAnEgg

I have read very few negative comments about this or any other art on this board.  Maybe I'm not looking close enough or, perhaps, I simply overlook such posts.


I admit that my dojo works toward tournaments.  However, it does not do so at the expense of traditional work or basics training or good health.  Sensei loves his bragging rights 

I do enjoy this style and I like Sensei.  He's genuine and open; but, I can see myself transitioning to another art at some distant point.  Wing Chun, I like and some other Chinese styles.  There are many to choose from.  Seieikan will be a good foundation for these, I agree.

I do train hard.  Some things are easier, even at this short interval.  I will continue.

Arigato


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## OnlyAnEgg

It's 10:47.  Tournament starts at 12:00.

A little nervous; but, not as bad as I thought I'd be.  I went through the kata this morning.  Some meditation.

I'll post this evening the results

egg


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## OnlyAnEgg

All right!


1st in kumite
1st loser in kata 

The karateka I fought was 11 years my younger and we are both white belts.  It was, actually, a grueling fight.  I was a little surprised I won.

He is also the one that took first in kata for my division.

A lot of fun


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## Navarre

Congratulations on your kumite victory! And, congratulations on your first tournament.

 I'd like to hear some detail on how you think things went. What went well? Where do you plan on improving? Was anything especially surprising, exciting, or disappointing?

 Let us know.


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## Randy Strausbaugh

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> A lot of fun


That's the important part.  The rest is just stuff.  Happy training!


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## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> Congratulations on your kumite victory! And, congratulations on your first tournament.


Tnank you very much.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> I'd like to hear some detail on how you think things went.


Well, it was a bit disorienting, not knowing what to expect; but, we had Sensei, his Sensei and another Black belt doing the judging.  I paid close attention to the scoring process and now have a better idea how that's done.  It was smooth, start to finish.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> What went well?


No one commited seppuku d/t shame in the ring.  That was good.  I did my form well; but, not well enough.  I had no fear of my opponent; although, he was a tough one...yes, he was.  About 5' 5", 180, maybe and built of stone.  Solid hitter with good legs.  My legs (now deemed flipperfeet by some of the audience) were faster and a bit more accurate.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> Where do you plan on improving?


Smoothness and relaxation in the ring and in kata are both targets for improvement.  I need to develop some fist/arm combinations and rely a little less on my kicks, I think.




			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> Was anything especially surprising, exciting, or disappointing?


I was not surprised by the kata place.  My competitor was skilled, smooth and better practiced than I.  I am, however, surprised by the kumite decision.  We were 2-2 when the final point came.  I was certain he had a body kick that beat my straight punch.  Shigata ga na, neh?



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> Let us know.


Thanks for all the support and advice.


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## Navarre

That's all good to hear.

 Randy is right that having fun is the most important thing. It sounds like you did, so Good Job!

 It also sounds like you've learned a lot from it too. Tournaments are about as close to a real fight as it is to crocheting a sweater or milking a goat.  Still, we can learn a lot about our abilities and how we react under pressure. 

 In that regards, tournaments are useful tools as well as fun.  It sounds like you got a lot of both.

 And, although your medals show a base leg knee kick that is clearly against tourament rules (the things they teach these kids!) I am proud of you just the same.

 Take whatever you can carry away from the event and adapt it into advancing yourself for the real world.  Again, Good Job Egg!


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## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> It also sounds like you've learned a lot from it too. Tournaments are about as close to a real fight as it is to crocheting a sweater or milking a goat. Still, we can learn a lot about our abilities and how we react under pressure.


Agreed; but, they are quite different from sparring in class. I learned quite a bit more in that regard.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> And, although your medals show a base leg knee kick that is clearly against tourament rules (the things they teach these kids!) I am proud of you just the same.


That's not really me on the medal 


egg

PS: It also bears stating this this event is the first athletic event I have won, placed or showed in all my 44 years.


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## Navarre

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> they [tournaments] are quite different from sparring in class. I learned quite a bit more in that regard.


 Yes, you certainly find out a lot more about how you really fight in a tournament than in class. The difference in stress level is remarkable.

 Your logical next step is a caged pit fighter match in the Hong Kong underground. Good luck!



			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> That's not really me on the medal


 I know. When I fought in tournaments I consistently requested upon my arrival that they replaced the gold medal in all my events with one displaying my face. ...  They seemed to find my request amusing. I'm sure it was only an embarrassed laughter because they had no time to properly rework the medals.



			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> It also bears stating this this event is the first athletic event I have won, placed or showed in all my 44 years.


 And that is a spectacular feeling! Any moment in our lives where we face a true challenge and persevere through ethical conduct and focused spirit is worth celebrating.  I don't drink but here's a cold pitcher of iced tea from me! :supcool:


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## OnlyAnEgg

As I do not drink, as well, iced tea will be just wonderful, thank you.


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## OnlyAnEgg

Here are a few pictures from the event. In all shots, I am the old man 

No, really:
1: Kata finish
2: Kumite finish
3: Kumite (I know...I'm wide open)
4: Just mugging for the camera


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## Lisa

Excellent photos Egg.  Thanks for posting them.


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## Navarre

Hey, thanks for the pics, Egg!

As you noticed, having some pics or video can help you analyze areas where you want to improve, such as closing your guard side when attacking. ... Y'know, you can clear that little error right up with PhotoShop; even create cool explosion effects around your punch.

The setting looks to be much smaller than I usually see. I'm used to most tournaments being held in a high school gym somewhere. Was this tournament for students only from your school, sister schools, or open to the MA community at large?


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## OnlyAnEgg

It was open to the MA community; but, it seems only our school and Sensei Annarino's (Sensei's sensei) competed.  It must be said, though,  I did not poll everyone that attended.

I'll say this, though, I need to find a sparring partner and just that quick, too.  Simply sparring in class is woefully inadequate in preparing for a competition.

In any event, small; but, fun and exciting.  I can't wait for the next


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> Y'know, you can clear that little error right up with PhotoShop;


I see what you mean about fixing the error.

This is much better...


----------



## Lisa

:rofl:  :rofl: 

OMG!  I think I dated you in the '80's !!!


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Lisa said:
			
		

> :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> OMG! I think I dated you in the '80's !!!


Maybe...I was in that band, 'Boston'.


----------



## Navarre

You look like Dee Snider from Twisted Sister. lmao!!


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

I'm not gonna take that

No! I ain't gonna take that


----------



## Navarre

You're not gonna take it ... anymore!


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Ok...back to some sembelance of reality 

I'm going to start to tape my practice here at home.  I can't think of a better critic than myself when it comes to me.

Question: has anyone else taped themselves?  is it a good idea or a trip into despair?

thanks


----------



## Navarre

No, I think it's a great idea. I've taped my katas and techniques, as well as belt tests. It shows me progression, even regression, and easily points out areas to be improved. I have to take into account intangible things like age, conditioning, spiritual state, and so forth but it is indeed a very helpful tool.

My sensei also had some tapes of himself as a white belt and yellow belt. One day when I was struggling and felt like I didn't have what it took, he showed methe tapes. We laughed together at them and I realized that all of our journies are perpetually uphill but worth the trip.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Well, class is taking a good turn. Sensei is beginning to train a little tougher, even on the kids. Discipline is now required, not requested. Pushup sessions for misbehaviour are starting to occur with more frequency.

I think this is good. I mean, it's ok for the kids to have fun; but, basic dojo discipline needs to be laid out clearly.

Focusing more on me, Sensei spends a little more time instructing me at my level of comprehension each class and I am much appreciative. Things like what an opponents stance will tell me, how they hold their hands, etc. I'm beginning speed drills at home, changing up combinations of blocks and strikes. I'm going to construct a primitive marakawa this week and begin beating the daylights out of it, too.

Hey, I just noticed: I'm a glorious beacon of light, now.  Whooda thunkit?


----------



## Navarre

Maybe for variety's sake you would want to work in some of the improvised training drills I mentioned in an earlier post here. The basketball drill is actually kind of fun as well as useful in several ways. My post is partway down the page, right after one of yours (so I'm sure you've read it).


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

navarre said:
			
		

> I never had a speed bag. I had a basketball. I stood a few feet away from a solid wall and popped the basketball into the wall with a "three-inch" punch, then repeated the action with the opposite hand as the basketball recoiled to me. I would see how many repeat hits I could get in a row. Good for timing, force control, and knuckle conditioning.
> 
> I have mentioned elsewhere about lighting a candle and throwing reverse punches or backfists at it. The goal is to suck the flame out *toward* you instead of pushing it away. The same drill can be done with a styrofoam cup sitting upside down near the edge of a table. This works on speed of recoil and economy of motion.


Well, I'm skipping the railway suggestion right off the bat; but, the b-ball one will help certainly.  I can do that in my driveway.

Any speed drill, such as the candle one, cannot but help to increase performance. 

Domo


----------



## Navarre

As you progress, you will find the railway suggestion a fitting test. At higher levels you will be able to move so quickly, running backwards along a single rail of the track, that the oncoming train will never touch you. 

You should be able to moderate your running speed so that you can keep pace just ahead of the train, touching it with one hand at all times without it hitting you.

When true mastery comes, you will realize there is no train. The train shall pass harmlessly through you because your mind will recognize that it was only real in your mind.

... My advice would be to start with the basketball drill first.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> ...there is no train...My advice would be to start with the basketball drill first.


Wait..._is_ there a basketball?

Domo


----------



## Navarre

Ah-so. You have taken the first step toward enlightenment, my young padwan learner.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Man, I can hardly get any practice time in this week.  Our church band (of which I am trombonist ichi) is goin' on da road Friday and the setlist is tricky.  I missed class last night; but, I'm going tonight.  Too much...it's like trombonekan or Ko Sutembone or something.  Overload!


----------



## Kosokun

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Ho-hum. Students don't award their instructors ninth dan. It is a BS organization. RUN to another dojo.


 Hi Gene,

 Don Madden's Legit.  When I was competing on the USA Karate Team, he was our Coach.  He produced several members of the team over the years and has built a large organization that provides support to "orphans" from traditional karate.  He's now involved with the IJJF and USA Jujitsu and has produced several top flight Jujitsu competitors.  Both, his involvement with Karate and with Jujitsu has been with the International Governing Bodies under the International Olympic Committee.  

 On top of that, he's a good guy, Gene.  You'd really enjoy hanging out with him.

 Rob


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Thank you, Kosokun.

I've been with this school for a month and a half now and my personal feeling is that it is not a beltmill or McDojo.  Information on the web is scattered and sketchy, at best, for Seieikan.  I enjoy hearing from someone with real experience.

Thank you again.

:asian:


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

I welcome any comparisons.

Fukyugata Ich

Attention
Bow
Look Left
Turn 90 Left, Left Low Block
Step Forward Right, Right Middle Punch
Turn 180 Right, Right Low Block
Step Forward Left, Left Middle Punch
Turn Left, Left Low Block
Step Forward Right, Right Middle Punch
Step Forward Left, Left Middle Punch
Step Forward Right, Right Middle Punch
Turn Left 225, Left Low Block
Step Forward Right, Right High Block
Turn Right 90, Right Low Block
Step Forward Left, Left High Block
Turn 45 Left, Right Reverse Punch, Cha!
Step Forward Right, Left Reverse Punch
Step Forward Left, Right Reverse Punch
Step Forward Right, Left Reverse Punch
Turn Left 225, Left Low Block
Step Forward Right, Right High Punch
Turn Right 90, Right Low Block
Step Forward Left, Left High Punch
Return to start with Left
Bow
Attention


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Fukyugata Ni

Attention
Bow
Step Out with Right Foot, Pivoting Left On Left Foot Into A Left High Block
Step Forward Right, Right Punch
Sweep Right Arm Into Left Low Block, Stepping Back with Right Foot Into Horse Stance
Looking To Right, Step Out With Left Foot, Right High Block
Sweep Left Arm Into Right Low Block, Stepping Back with Left Foot Into Horse Stance
Step Forward With Left Foot, Left Chest Block
Step Forward With Right Foot, Right Chest Block
Left Front Snap Kick
Left Elbow Strike
Left Low Block
Right Punch, Cha!
Pivoting on both feet, Reverse Stance, Right Knife Hand Block
Step Forward Left, Left Chest Block
Right Front Snap Kick
Right Elbow Strike
Right Low Block
Left Punch 
Pivoting on both feet, Reverse Stance, Left Knife Hand Block
Bring Right Foot Up To Left Foot
Reach Forward, Right Wrist Over Left, Grab And Pull Back To Left, Stepping Back With Left Foot
Right Backfist
Double Punch, Right Fist Low
Bring Left Foot Up To Right Foot
Reach Forward, Left Wrist Over Right, Grab And Pull Back To Right, Stepping Back With Right Foot
Left Backfist
Double Punch, Left Fist Low
Return To Attention
Bow
Attention

On these two descriptions, please pardon my abject lack of Japanese terminology.


----------



## Navarre

I can't think of any comparisons because these are the same first two katas I know!  lol


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

lol 

I suppose I meant between Seieikan and other Okinawan styles.

Brain's a little laggy today.  Sorry.


----------



## The Kai

They both start out like Taihokyou 1 and 2 respectively then go into something different.  Are they tradtional or modified?


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

The Kai said:
			
		

> They both start out like Taihokyou 1 and 2 respectively then go into something different. Are they tradtional or modified?


 
They're modified, I believe.  I'm struck by the feeling that Seieikan is an Americanization of earlier Shotokan/Okinawan forms.  It's been difficult to get enough time to speak with Sensei on these more in-depth topics.


----------



## Navarre

Seiei Kan is definitely Americanized and has borrowed from Shotokan and Okinawa. If you go to larger tournaments and watch students from other systems, you will see katas that are virtually identical to the Seiei Kan katas. 

I'm not offended by that because Mr. Madden's credentials are completely legitimate, as is the system. All these systems have to come from somewhere.


----------



## Kosokun

Egg,  The forms that you outlined are Fyukyugata Ichi and Ni.  Fyukyugata Ichi was authored by Shoshin Nagamine, the founder of Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu.  Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu and possibly Motobu Ha Shito Ryu do this form, too, but it's called "Ten No Kata".    Fyukyugata Ni, was created by Chojun Miyagi, founder of goju ryu,  and is known in goju as Gekisai Dai Ichi.  Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu does this form and calls it "Chi No Kata".    Rob


----------



## Navarre

Thanks for the information on these katas, Rob. May I ask as to the source of your information?

These are the first two katas in our system, required for the first belt test as well.  After that it goes into a bunch of Pinan katas, which I believe to come from Shotokan. There are more miscellaneous katas beyond that, probably borrowed from different systems.

I take it that Mr. Madden took katas to be a strongly desired component of his system and so incorporated those kata he saw as beneficial. Seiei Kan is very much an "open" system, incorporating whatever works towards the desired end. Therefore, this fits with the system's principles.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Kosokun said:
			
		

> Egg, The forms that you outlined are Fyukyugata Ichi and Ni. Fyukyugata Ichi was authored by Shoshin Nagamine, the founder of Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu. Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu and possibly Motobu Ha Shito Ryu do this form, too, but it's called "Ten No Kata". Fyukyugata Ni, was created by Chojun Miyagi, founder of goju ryu, and is known in goju as Gekisai Dai Ichi. Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu does this form and calls it "Chi No Kata". Rob


 
As I'm at work and cannot reference the material, is this the same Ten No Kata that I recall seeing in Funakoshi's text, Nyumon?


----------



## Kosokun

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> As I'm at work and cannot reference the material, is this the same Ten No Kata that I recall seeing in Funakoshi's text, Nyumon?


   No, it's not.    Funakoshi's Ten no kata is a two person pre-arranged kumite drill.    Utilizing Sensei Google, I find:   _4. Ten-no Kata (basic application)  These basic exercises teach you how to apply the technique in relation to a partner. The partner executes an agreed attack to which you exercise a specific defence and counter. The skill developed is to learn to follow the trajectory of the partners attack and to apply a defensive technique in time and to gain maximum efficiency from it and to understand what counter technique will work.  Skills like how to move in a fast, yet physically relaxed manner; how to punch, kick or deflect attacks -all of these are covered in a systematic manner. _  (From: http://www.karatedoshotokai.com/clubs/oxford/training.asp)  Fyukyukata: There are mpegs on the site of Fyukyukata as well as other Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu kata.   http://web1.38231.vs.webtropia.com/indexen.html  Remember: Fyukyukata ichi = Ten no kata of Hayashi Ha Fyukyukata ni = Chi no kata of Hayashi Ha and Gekisai Dai Ichi of Goju.  Rob


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Domo


----------



## Kosokun

Navarre said:
			
		

> Thanks for the information on these katas, Rob. May I ask as to the source of your information?


  Oh my.     Mr. Nagamine's book, "The essence of Okinawan Karate do" .  Mr. Nagamine says he created Fyukyukata ichi and that Miyagi created Fyukyukata ni.   My bo instr. was a rokudan in Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu.  He taught me fyukyukata ichi and ni.  My karate instructor used to be one of the biggies in Hayashi Ha and we did Ten no kata and Chi no kata.  My wife did Goju with Gosei Yamaguchi.   Didn't take a lot of horsepower to compare the various kata and reach the conclusion that fyukyukata 1 = Ten no kata.  Fyukyukata 2 = chi no kata = gekisai dai ichi.    





> These are the first two katas in our system, required for the first belt test as well.  After that it goes into a bunch of Pinan katas, which I believe to come from Shotokan. There are more miscellaneous katas beyond that, probably borrowed from different systems.
> 
> I take it that Mr. Madden took katas to be a strongly desired component of his system and so incorporated those kata he saw as beneficial. Seiei Kan is very much an &quot;open&quot; system, incorporating whatever works towards the desired end. Therefore, this fits with the system's principles.


  Nothing wrong in my book with Mr. Madden taking a kata or katas from other systems and incorporating them into his syllabus.     Rob


----------



## Navarre

Ouch, Rob. Your explanation gave me a migraine. lol Thanks for clarifying though. I didn't doubt the legitimacy of your information but, as it is more than I previously knew, I was curious as to the source.

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking any element that works and using in one's system. I suppose some purists may disagree however. 

I was once considering joining a local kung fu school. I was told that I could not attend because I had studied a previous system and held a black belt. They said their sifu's techniques were copyrighted and confidential to their system. 

Apparently he finally mastered jumping over clouds or teleportation or something. Can't say I understood how any technique could be so incredibly innovative that no one had figured it out in the 2000 years before this guy. ... I never bothered with them after that.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Indeed, thank you for the clarification.  It is immensely helpful to me that you included the texts this information is from.  I could take the time to scour the shelves, pouring over every karate text I can find in order to better understand may art; but, honestly, such pointers save an enormous amount of time.  

Again, Thank you.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Kosokun said:
			
		

> Fyukyukata: There are mpegs on the site of Fyukyukata as well as other Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu kata. http://web1.38231.vs.webtropia.com/indexen.html Remember: Fyukyukata ichi = Ten no kata of Hayashi Ha Fyukyukata ni = Chi no kata of Hayashi Ha and Gekisai Dai Ichi of Goju. Rob


 
This site is a treasure trove.  I feel a little guilty viewing the video because I wonder if I should learn the kata ONLY from class.  Nonetheless, thank you for this.


----------



## Navarre

That is a great site for sure. Thanks! 

Hey, Egg, on a different thread I mentioned a move that I didn't understand at first. You can see it on the Pinan Sandan video at 17 seconds into the clip. Looking at it now it looks rather obvious but when I was a green belt I just scratched my head and followed directions.

I wouldn't worry about viewing the katas either. I doubt you're going to use this as your primary learning source. Also, although the first 2 Ko Sutemi katas are identical as I learned them, there is more and more deviation in the upper katas. 

This may be only a product of my own training, far removed as we were from direct contact with Mr. Madden back in those days. However, it is indeed a different system so they may have been changed up bit. 

Perhaps yet another offense to kata purists, I don't know, especially considering the katas history. Still, even though this site seems thorough, I can't say for sure that Sensei Shindt is himself doing the kata exactly the same as it was done in 1683.

Still a great site though. Thanks, Kosokun.


----------



## Gene Williams

Well Egg, 
You seem to be a little defensive about the kata thing, and you seem to understand that there are traditional ryu that these kata came from. You are training in yet another derivative style which mixes and matches to suit the "founder's" tastes. I don't know what causes people to run off and start their own "style," but it is a real problem in this country. I can understand starting a kai, an organization within which Shito ryu, Shotokan, or Goju, for instance, is taught. This happens for political reasons, sometimes a Soke (a real one, not some Western wannabee) will authorize or give his blessing to something like that. But, the karate within a kai like that is still the original ryu. But, this business of mixing and matching kata (and usually inflating one's lineage or "expanding" on the truth of one's background) is like a bunch of kids playing with Lego's in their play room..."let's see what I can make if I do this..." I just don't see much point in it EXCEPT ...ego...TAH-DAH!!!
I'm sure that Rob or I could come up with plenty of justification for starting our own ryu (far more than most mentioned in these forums). We have menkyo (lots of 'em) from Japanese or Okinawan guys, we have trained for years in orthodox ryu, we know a little Japanese and can write a few kanji (Rob may know more than me), we have trained in weapons, iaido, etc. Why, Hell, I'm sure we both have enough imagination to stretch the seminars we've been to under well known Japanese/Okinawan "masters" into "training with" them (implying, of course that we were some kind of live-in student for years). AND, Rob and I can really do the kata...I mean, like, we actually train a lot. So, all that and competence, too. WOW! I can just see my Soke certificate on the wall now! (Rob, if you are reading this, send me 500 dollars and I'll mail you your Soke diploma. Do you want to be 9th or 10th dan?) But, we don't do that, we don't make those claims.
Now, Egg (and others) why do you suppose it is that Rob and I and many others out there with more skill and knowledge than us don't do that? Is it because we are less skilled? Have less training? Not as bright? What is the reason....let me  see, hmmmmm...DAMN, I just can't figure...oh. well, it must be some stupid reason like honesty or integrity or respect for the tradition. How silly of me...
Why don't you find a real ryu and a real sensei and just be good friends with Mr. Madden? You all could still have a beer together once in a while.


----------



## The Kai

Man
You have a interesting take on the history of karate


----------



## Gene Williams

I wasn't discussing the history of karate.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> I wasn't discussing the history of karate.


 
Indeed you were not.

I am all for discussion of Seieikan and it's differences/similarities with traditional arts; but, I would not consider such aggressive commentary to be discussion.  There is absolutely nothing to be gained by this bootless flaming.

Thank you.


----------



## Gene Williams

I don't see that as flaming. It was a pretty straight forward statement with some examples that were not much of a stretch. A little sarcasm is  a literary technique designed to highlight a point. Now, if I had said that you are hooked up with twits...THAT would have been flaming.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> A little sarcasm is a literary technique designed to highlight a point.


 
I'm well aware of what sarcasm is, thank you.  How it furthers one's point is significantly less clear.


----------



## Gene Williams

So, why don't you respond to what I wrote instead of pretending to be injured?


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> Still, even though this site seems thorough, I can't say for sure that Sensei Shindt is himself doing the kata exactly the same as it was done in 1683.


 
I don't expect this or any other art is going to remain unchanged for that length of time.  If things do not grow, they falter and fade.

On another point, Sensei Phillips does not require us to join the AKJU in order to train with him.  That's an option I plan to take on beginning in January.  We have an AKJU tourney coming up in Dec, as well, which I plan to attend.  This has been a thin week for training.  Birthdays and church band and kid's activities.  I've been able to train some on my own; but, I sure notice the absence of training in the dojo.


----------



## Navarre

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I've been able to train some on my own; but, I sure notice the absence of training in the dojo.


 
Regardless of rank or experience, working out alone is never as beneficial as dojo training. It's certainly never as interesting. But you'll be back on the floor in no time. 

I agree with you that anyone who believes an art will remain truly unchanged over centuries is fooling themselves. Although the advent of video and other recordable media makes the situation much better, there is inevitably going to be some variance in translation between people over the course of time.

I would certainly prefer to work on the exact kata created centuries before. However, it is more important to me that the intention, perspective, and integrity of the techniques therein is what's preserved.

It was good to see these katas performed by a skilled practioner from a different system. Do you find that Sensei Shindt changes the level of his movement, meaning more vertical change up and down when moving, than what you're being taught?


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> It was good to see these katas performed by a skilled practioner from a different system. Do you find that Sensei Shindt changes the level of his movement, meaning more vertical change up and down when moving, than what you're being taught?


 
I haven't had the opportunity to view all the kata; but, without a doubt; at least, within the first three kata a steady head heighth is emphasized.  Danny has us attempt to maintain a level head while practicing basic kata.  He teaches (at my level) that head, shoulder and arm movement are a dead giveaway to your opponent and should, therefore, be minimized or eliminated.    

Beyond the Fukyugata, I cannot say with any certainty.  We have done Pinan Shodan once in class.  The video at Sensei Sindt's page seems the same, though I do not recall the changes in stance in the latter half, especially, of the form.


----------



## Kosokun

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Beyond the Fukyugata, I cannot say with any certainty. We have done Pinan Shodan once in class. The video at Sensei Sindt's page seems the same, though I do not recall the changes in stance in the latter half, especially, of the form.



I've not seen Coach Madden's Pinans, but you may want to take a look at the Heian kata on www.Shitokai.com

Heian is the Japanese pronunciation for the kanji used in Pinan.  Pinan is the Okinawan dialect's pronunciation.  So, Heian = Pinan.

Rob


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Well Egg,
> You seem to be a little defensive about the kata thing, and you seem to understand that there are traditional ryu that these kata came from. You are training in yet another derivative style which mixes and matches to suit the "founder's" tastes. I don't know what causes people to run off and start their own "style," but it is a real problem in this country. I can understand starting a kai, an organization within which Shito ryu, Shotokan, or Goju, for instance, is taught. This happens for political reasons, sometimes a Soke (a real one, not some Western wannabee) will authorize or give his blessing to something like that. But, the karate within a kai like that is still the original ryu. But, this business of mixing and matching kata (and usually inflating one's lineage or "expanding" on the truth of one's background) is like a bunch of kids playing with Lego's in their play room..."let's see what I can make if I do this..." I just don't see much point in it EXCEPT ...ego...TAH-DAH!!!
> I'm sure that Rob or I could come up with plenty of justification for starting our own ryu (far more than most mentioned in these forums). We have menkyo (lots of 'em) from Japanese or Okinawan guys, *we have trained for years in orthodox ryu, we know a little Japanese and can write a few kanji* (Rob may know more than me), we have trained in weapons, iaido, etc. Why, Hell, I'm sure we both have enough imagination to stretch the seminars we've been to under well known Japanese/Okinawan "masters" into "training with" them (implying, of course that we were some kind of live-in student for years). AND, Rob and I can really do the kata...I mean, like, we actually train a lot. So, all that and competence, too. WOW! I can just see my Soke certificate on the wall now! (Rob, if you are reading this, send me 500 dollars and I'll mail you your Soke diploma. Do you want to be 9th or 10th dan?) But, we don't do that, we don't make those claims.
> Now, Egg (and others) *why do you suppose it is that* Rob and *I and many others out there with more skill and knowledge than us don't do that? Is it because we are less skilled? Have less training? Not as bright? What is the reason....let me see, hmmmmm...DAMN, I just can't figure...oh. well, it must be some stupid reason like honesty or integrity or respect for the tradition. *How silly of me...
> Why don't you find a real ryu and a real sensei and just be good friends with Mr. Madden? You all could still have a beer together once in a while.


 
so .....let me get this straight.....if an okinawan guy runs off and starts his own style based on anothers teaching......thats A-OK in your book. but if a white guy does it, he doesnt know a god damned thing?

so....you've studied hard, taken your vitamins and said your prayers. you can brush a few kanji and perform some kata.

does this mean you can act like an a**hole anytime you want too?


----------



## The Kai

Might just become a tradition!


----------



## Navarre

BlackCatBonz, the answer unfortunately seems to be "yes", at least in his mind. I'm honestly just going to ignore the whole thing. it isn't the least bit productive or respectful and deserve no further commentary. Thanks for stepping up though.

Egg, we were also taught to maintain consistent shoulder/head level. The eye notices vertical movement much easier than lateral movement. Changes of height are telegraphing a change in position. 

Consequently, in my stances I set just slightly low. Not much just a tad. It allows me to create a stronger drive into my opponent while still maintaining balance, shoulder level, and freedom to change angles if need be.

This would seem to be a component of Seiei Kan that is slightly different than that of Shorin Ryu. And, I daresay, one could analyze either principle with equal validity regardless of where it came from.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

I prefer a lower stance, sort of a half horse stance.  I have plenty of power in my legs and can rise in pretty fast.

Telegraphing movements seems a common enough thing in new students.  I have to concentrate hard to keep from shifting my arm back before a strike especially.  Relaxing through the shoulders has minimized some of this movement nicely.


----------



## Kosokun

The Kai said:
			
		

> Might just become a tradition!



If you've followed the history of how organizations form and break up, you'll find that it *is* the tradition.

Kidding aside, Gene's the real deal guys.  He's been around the corner a bunch and like me, more times than not, the guys we've seen popping up as soke here in the states over the years are, well charlatans.   Gene's a valuable resource for this board, and when you get to know him, he's got a great sense of humor.  He plays a little rough, sometimes, but like the tough fighter in the dojo, you can learn a lot from him and improve because he pushes you.


Rob


----------



## Navarre

If your shoulder relaxation is in any way a result of my early suggestion to you, then I am glad to hear it helped. It has certainly always helped me a great deal.

I usually wasn't aware of how much tension I had in my shoulders until I focused on it. Sometimes even in a fight I will take a second (during the time between engagement) to sigh and relax. It always helps.

As for maintaining consistent shoulder height, it is indeed a common problem in beginners. I always advise my students to find a mirror (full length if available) and practice their forward movement. Watching yourself in the mirror can show you if you are telegraphing.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Kosokun said:
			
		

> If you've followed the history of how organizations form and break up, you'll find that it *is* the tradition.
> 
> Kidding aside, Gene's the real deal guys. He's been around the corner a bunch and like me, more times than not, the guys we've seen popping up as soke here in the states over the years are, well charlatans. Gene's a valuable resource for this board, and when you get to know him, he's got a great sense of humor. He plays a little rough, sometimes, but like the tough fighter in the dojo, you can learn a lot from him and improve because he pushes you.
> 
> 
> Rob


 
Im sure that Gene is the "real deal", but his position as a teacher and valuable resource is invalidated by his lack of spirit in the quest for learning something new.
he tends to make remarks before he knows who are what it is he is talking about.
Being a great fighter in the dojo has nothing to do with interacting with your peers. 
Its not hard for some people to be a jerk........why doesnt he impress us with his knowledge, not with a traditionalist ego that no one gives a crap about.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Kosokun said:
			
		

> Gene's a valuable resource for this board, and when you get to know him, he's got a great sense of humor. He plays a little rough, sometimes, but like the tough fighter in the dojo, you can learn a lot from him and improve because he pushes you.
> 
> 
> Rob


 
So sorry, Kosokun; but, sarcasm and derision as teaching tools is utterly dysfunctional.  Moreover, this is not a dojo. It's a discussion board.  Not the same at all.

respectfully,

egg


----------



## Kosokun

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> so .....let me get this straight.....if an okinawan guy runs off and starts his own style based on anothers teaching......thats A-OK in your book. but if a white guy does it, he doesnt know a god damned thing?


If someone is teaching something that's based on another's teaching, then it's that other person's style. It's not appropriate for the fellow, Asian or not, to call himself soke of this other person's style. It's misleading and downright fraudulent for him to say that it's a new style and call himself "Soke". 

If someone creates somethng that's genuinely new, then perhaps that'd be a good candidate for Soke. Perhaps Takayuki Kubota might be exemplary of this.

Rob


----------



## Navarre

Kosokun said:
			
		

> Kidding aside, Gene's the real deal guys.  Rob


 
I've made no assumptions about his credibility. That seems to have been his approach, certainly not mine.

And I sensed no "kidding" in his remarks. Frequently ppl are quite happy to be as insulting as they please and then try to repackage it as "honesty". Some comments are respectful and some are not. It is quite clear where his statements fell.

I completely agree with you about charlatan sokes and such. From white belt all the way to grandmaster there are those who rely on nothing but hot air and a belt to try and promote themselves.

However, Mr. Madden is quite accomplished and recognized. Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan is a legitimate system. 

If one prefers to believe it is not or wants to ramble on with a continuing thread where the semantics of the word "legitimate" is endlessly debated, they would probably be happier spending their time in the "Bible, Hell ..." thread where everyone gets the chance to add pointless rhetoric ad nauseum.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> If your shoulder relaxation is in any way a result of my early suggestion to you, then I am glad to hear it helped. It has certainly always helped me a great deal.


 
It was.  Thank you.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> As for maintaining consistent shoulder height, it is indeed a common problem in beginners. I always advise my students to find a mirror (full length if available) and practice their forward movement. Watching yourself in the mirror can show you if you are telegraphing.


 
I've been able to isolate errors with the vidcam I started using.  It's been beneficial.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> If one prefers to believe it is not or wants to ramble on with a continuing thread where the semantics of the word "legitimate" is endlessly debated, they would probably be happier spending their time in the "Bible, Hell ..." thread where everyone gets the chance to add pointless rhetoric ad nauseum.


 
I agree.  This thread was started simply to talk about training in Seieikan.  It is not meant to be an 'Endless Debate' thread.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Kosokun said:
			
		

> If someone is teaching something that's based on another's teaching, then it's that other person's style. It's not appropriate for the fellow, Asian or not, to call himself soke of this other person's style. It's misleading and downright fraudulent for him to say that it's a new style and call himself "Soke".
> 
> If someone creates somethng that's genuinely new, then perhaps that'd be a good candidate for Soke. Perhaps Takayuki Kubota might be exemplary of this.
> 
> Rob


 
the whole soke issue has been gone over too times on martialtalk.
founding a system does not make one a soke.
this is way off topic though.


----------



## Navarre

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I've been able to isolate errors with the vidcam I started using. It's been beneficial.


 
Yes, I haven't started using the vid cam to record students yet but had condisered the idea. It would make for excellent training tapes b/c the student could step back from themselves and see what is really going on.

It would also make for a wonderful video scrapbook for that student. I wish I had tapes of all my years of training. It would be interesting to watch myself learning Pinan Shodan.


----------



## Kosokun

Navarre said:
			
		

> However, Mr. Madden is quite accomplished and recognized. Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan is a legitimate system.



Just in case there may have been any misunderstandings, Mr. Madden is a friend of mine. He is indeed quite accomplished.  I have a great deal of warmth and respect for him.  

Rob


----------



## BlackCatBonz

i both love and hate to watch myself on video. even when someone has told me ive done a great job on the kata, i can only see the bad parts.
it is an excellent gauge of progress, although i would be frightened to see what i looked like when i first started.......i was told it was akin to watching a choo choo train roll down the track.


----------



## Navarre

Kosokun said:
			
		

> Just in case there may have been any misunderstandings, Mr. Madden is a friend of mine. Rob


 
I didn't misunderstand or even disagree with you, Rob. I have no problem with anything you've said. In fact, quite the contrary. You have improved this thread greatly with your link contribution.  Thank you.

But, yes, let's just move on and stay on topic. We've said what we need to say unless someone drops back in to fan the flames.

As for the video record, yeah, it would be embarrassing and funny to watch myself during some of the earlier tapes. But I'd mentioned that my sensei had shown us tapes of himself as a yellow belt. Although we all had a good laugh I also gained more respect for him. 

He wasn't hiding behind rank or words but instead opening himself up to the same evaluation we all place ourselves under. I found it to be very decent and have approached my own classes the same way.

That, in my mind, is one of those legitimate aspects of which I spoke. I wonder how many classes make use of video cameras? Maybe someone should start a thread.


----------



## Gene Williams

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> Im sure that Gene is the "real deal", but his position as a teacher and valuable resource is invalidated by his lack of spirit in the quest for learning something new.
> he tends to make remarks before he knows who are what it is he is talking about.
> Being a great fighter in the dojo has nothing to do with interacting with your peers.
> Its not hard for some people to be a jerk........why doesnt he impress us with his knowledge, not with a traditionalist ego that no one gives a crap about.


 
Being a great fighter in a dojo has nothing to do with being "the real deal." Speaking of real deal, I notice you list the World Head of Sokeship Council on the first page of your website. Now, just how am I supposed to take you seriously? I learn something new every time I train...doing the same kata and applications I've done for years. Suggesting that tradition and the orthodox ryu might possibly be a better place to look for the spirit of Okinawan karate than some wannabee's made up style (regardless of what a wonderful person the guy might be) is hardly a "traditionalist ego."  The "quest for learning something new" is a little more than playing around with anyone's ideas of what karate is and mixing and matching kata in the backyard. But, just as long as you're having fun I guess it doesn't matter.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

your MO is crystal clear gene........its the second time you have mentioned the link to the MACS page.
it doesnt hurt my feelings in the least.
but the fact remains that you do not exhibit the qualities that make someone the real deal. 
you seem to be more interested in showing people how negative and closed your mind is to the possibility that anything other than traditional is worth a crap.
i would wager that a good many people see your ego, even if you dont.
if being good means being a good jerk.....keep it up, sensei


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Being a great fighter in a dojo has nothing to do with being "the real deal." Speaking of real deal, I notice you list the World Head of Sokeship Council on the first page of your website. Now, just how am I supposed to take you seriously? I* learn something new every time I train...doing the same kata and applications I've done for years.* Suggesting that tradition and the orthodox ryu might possibly be a better place to look for the spirit of Okinawan karate than some wannabee's made up style (regardless of what a wonderful person the guy might be) is hardly a "traditionalist ego." *The "quest for learning something new" is a little more than playing around with anyone's ideas of what karate is and mixing and matching kata in the backyard*. But, just as long as you're having fun I guess it doesn't matter.


 
gene, i think its great you learn something new everytime you practice kata.......it tells me that you dont yet think you know it all.

playing around with ideas is the first step to discovery......you do it everytime you practice a kata or bunkai, but i still dont see how making up something new is so dreadfully awful?


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

I think there are better areas of the forum to discuss these particular topics.  Maybe this should be spun off into a new thread?


----------



## Flatlander

==============================================
*MOD WARNING:*

Please keep the discussion on topic, and at a courteous level.  Feel free to use the ignore feature.  Remember that sniping and personal insults will not be tolerated.  

-Dan Bowman-
-MT Senior Moderator-
==============================================


----------



## Navarre

Thank you, Dan. 

Respectfully,


----------



## Gene Williams

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> your MO is crystal clear gene........its the second time you have mentioned the link to the MACS page.
> it doesnt hurt my feelings in the least.
> but the fact remains that you do not exhibit the qualities that make someone the real deal.
> you seem to be more interested in showing people how negative and closed your mind is to the possibility that anything other than traditional is worth a crap.
> i would wager that a good many people see your ego, even if you dont.
> if being good means being a good jerk.....keep it up, sensei


 
So, what is my MO, as you like to put it? Questioning BS mutual rank societies? Raising legitimate critical questions about homemade karate wannabees? Apparently, anyone who doesn't want to play "let's make up a karate style" is "close minded and a jerk. I'll wager, and I could be wrong (and if I see evidence that I'm wrong I'll be the first to apologize), that in any traditional Okinawan karate dojo you'd look about like a green belt.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

see thread


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> So, what is my MO, as you like to put it? Questioning BS mutual rank societies? Raising legitimate critical questions about homemade karate wannabees? Apparently, anyone who doesn't want to play "let's make up a karate style" is "close minded and a jerk. I'll wager, and I could be wrong (and if I see evidence that I'm wrong I'll be the first to apologize), that in any traditional Okinawan karate dojo you'd look about like a green belt.


 
maybe you should make a new thread, gene.
it seems like you're still under the impression that this forum is used as your personal bashing site.
real mature, sensei.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

All right, guys...take it outside.


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh

Navarre said:
			
		

> Egg, we were also taught to maintain consistent shoulder/head level. The eye notices vertical movement much easier than lateral movement. Changes of height are telegraphing a change in position.
> 
> This would seem to be a component of Seiei Kan that is slightly different than that of Shorin Ryu. And, I daresay, one could analyze either principle with equal validity regardless of where it came from.


Yes, the changes in height are one of the more obvious differences between Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu and Seiei-kan. The difference (I believe) lies in the bunkai taught in the respective systems. Shorin-ryu often teaches that the rise in stance which accompanies an upper block in some places indicates not a block, but a joint attack. Essentially, the chambering hand holds the attacker's wrist, and the other arm strikes up under the attacker's elbow. The raise in stance augments the upward striking motion of the arm. In Seiei-kan, it's usually taught as a block with (as stated) no change in stance height. 
Of course, I could be wrong. I don't study Shorin-ryu and only studied Seiei-kan briefly in the mid 70s.
Anyway, it's something to mull over  .


----------



## tshadowchaser

I am going of subject for a minute. 
Every one who develops a new style/system changes it a little using the information they have learned from some previous training.  They may combine techniques from various training , they may add techniques that where not in the systems previously studied, the may change karta(forms) a little because they wish to emphasis feet not hands or low stance vs. high, etc.
  the Okinawan forms and stances are not exactly what theChinesee did and theJapanesee andKoreann forms are slightly different than the Okinawan. Each was based on something else but different in ways because of the understanding of the form by the person teaching it or because the person wanted to emphasis some thing different.

now no where in the original post of this thread do I see any reference to 
sokeship councils or to the discussion of such or their validity. so that being said


Mod Warring
Keep to the subject

Sheldon Bedell
mt mod


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> now no where in the original post of this thread do I see any reference to sokeship councils or to the discussion of such or their validity. so that being said
> 
> 
> Mod Warring
> Keep to the subject
> 
> Sheldon Bedell
> mt mod


 
Thank you.


----------



## Navarre

Yes, tshadowchaser, as I thanked flatlander I also extend my thanks to you. This not because I am from the system in question but simply because I want to talk about martial arts, not argue. I have a wife for that. Sorry you have to be involved.

Randy, I understand what you mean. If the Shorin-ryu technique is a strike under the elbow then the change in level makes sense.

You are right that it is solely a block in Seiei Kan. One of the things I've never liked quite as well about Seiei Kan katas is that the technique seem so separated. They make sense but they are in many places isolated from the subsequent technique instead of incorporated. I still believe in the concept of maintaining shoulder level but would agree that the level change works best for the technique as you described it.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> One of the things I've never liked quite as well about Seiei Kan katas is that the technique seem so separated. They make sense but they are in many places isolated from the subsequent technique instead of incorporated. I still believe in the concept of maintaining shoulder level but would agree that the level change works best for the technique as you described it.


 
Navarre:
I've noticed a little of this, myself; eg: kata or practice punch vs. kumite punch, specifically.  The practice punch is a rotating strike, fist is knuckles down at side and rotates to knuckles up for the strike.  In kumite, thee fist is held thumb side up and strike is direct, only extending the arm.  

Should there not be a more direct relationship between kata and kumite?


----------



## BlackCatBonz

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> hmmm...Gene is all cancelled. I thought it was a little quiet around here.
> 
> 
> 
> Navarre:
> I've noticed a little of this, myself; eg: kata or practice punch vs. kumite punch, specifically. 1.*The practice punch is a rotating strike, fist is knuckles down at side and rotates to knuckles up for the strike. In kumite, thee fist is held thumb side up and strike is direct, only extending the arm. *
> 
> *2.Should there not be a more direct relationship between kata and kumite*?


 
1. "corkscrewing" your punch helps with penetration.....some people may want to disagree with me on this point, however it is all in "when" you corkscrew your hand. the moment your hand makes contact is when the motion should take place.
2. that all depends on what you mean....the techniques in kata are applicable to kumite, but IMO their most important value lies in teaching correct "form". there isnt a single movement in a kata that should be overlooked, it represents harmony and efficacy in motion.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> 1. "corkscrewing" your punch helps with penetration.....some people may want to disagree with me on this point, however it is all in "when" you corkscrew your hand. the moment your hand makes contact is when the motion should take place.
> 2. that all depends on what you mean....the techniques in kata are applicable to kumite, but IMO their most important value lies in teaching correct "form". there isnt a single movement in a kata that should be overlooked, it represents harmony and efficacy in motion.


 
1) I can see that effectiveness.  This was the point I was considering when I posted.  In competition and sparring, Sensei wants us to through a straight punch.  In kata, the corkscrew...

2) I do not minimize or marginalize kata.  I'm really serious about it and I practice them thoroughly.  I was just noticing the difference between kata and kumite, specifically the punch and I was wondering if that sort of divergence is typical or common.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

i guess the divergence all depends on your teacher......in theory and practice i perform the punch the same way. 
performing the punch with the corkscrew though is a specific type of weapon for specific types of jobs and should be used accordingly. 
a straight punch is a different type of weapon....different type of job. straight punches are great for  subterfuge or off balancing before you throw a good gyaku-zuki to the stomach.
the best thing would be to ask your sensei why the differences ......his explanation might be far different.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i guess the divergence all depends on your teacher......in theory and practice i perform the punch the same way.
> performing the punch with the corkscrew though is a specific type of weapon for specific types of jobs and should be used accordingly.
> a straight punch is a different type of weapon....different type of job. straight punches are great for subterfuge or off balancing before you throw a good gyaku-zuki to the stomach.
> the best thing would be to ask your sensei why the differences ......his explanation might be far different.


 
I will do that.  I will extrapolate his reason will be along the lines of competition effectivess and, as you said, subterfuge.  The economy of movement between the two is easily seen.


----------



## Navarre

The reverse punch as you described in the kata is a different technique than the one used in sparring. I think the separation on usage has a lot to do with Seiei Kan's focus on tournament kumite.

A point is given for contact with the puch regardless of rotated or not. Therefore, economy of motion becomes key.

However, in a real situation one must be cognizant of the desired target and effect of the punch. 

For example, a solar plexus strike would benefit more from a rotating punch. This would bring the knuckle deeper into the solar plexus, leaving less chance to catch on the xyphoid process (the small bone projection at the bottom of the sternum). Also, because the rotating punch is designed to be thrown at solar plexus level (on the mid-punch) it will naturally strike at a slight downward angle, thus creating the desired effect on a solar plexus strike.

Conversely, we have the "blitz-punch". This is just my term for it because I throw this punch a lot when I blitz the opponent. It is short, effective, and harder to detect or divert. That alone creates certain advantages for it. 

A rotating punch, because of the rotation, is easier to bypass than a rotating punch. This is because the elbow ends up on the outside of the arm, which is easier to divert than the bottom elbow of the blitz punch.

The blitz punch is quick to the target which makes it good for the surprise strike as well as a lead-in strike. Since I use it to blitz, I strike with it but am prepared to fire off the next technique. The rotating punch works well when the opponent is coming to you instead because of the extra penetration.

The blitz punch works well on vertical targets such as the brachial nerve centers underneath the arm. For this reason I also sometimes sweep an arm not only away from me (enough to miss me anyway) but also at an upward angle. This opens up the nerve center for the quick strike as well as removing most potential counter-movements of that opponent's arm except an elbow strike.

Both are useful strikes, just different. In kata I consisitently see the rotating punch. I believe this is most likely because it is the more traditional strike and so was incorporated into the kata. In kumite, I say it's whatever gets the job done.


----------



## The Kai

If I may...,
Your corkscrew punch and your "kumite" punch are in reality the same punch.  They happen to have different points of origin.  With your hand at your hip the path/motion would be as the punch "rockets" forward your arm starts its rotation.  Freeze frame half into the punch you have a half exrended and half rotated punch.  Line your body up in a kumite dachi and Bam there is your sparring posture , Right?


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

The Kai said:
			
		

> If I may...,
> Your corkscrew punch and your "kumite" punch are in reality the same punch. They happen to have different points of origin. With your hand at your hip the path/motion would be as the punch "rockets" forward your arm starts its rotation. Freeze frame half into the punch you have a half exrended and half rotated punch. Line your body up in a kumite dachi and Bam there is your sparring posture , Right?


 
Close.  The insistence in kumite is fists loose and up, defending the face, elbows drawn in almost tight with the abdomen.  Fist to elbow line perpendicular to the floor.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

The Kai said:
			
		

> If I may...,
> Your corkscrew punch and your "kumite" punch are in reality the same punch. They happen to have different points of origin. With your hand at your hip the path/motion would be as the punch "rockets" forward your arm starts its rotation. *Freeze frame half into the punch you have a half exrended and half rotated punch.* Line your body up in a kumite dachi and Bam there is your sparring posture , Right?


 
while this is entirely true, the point at which the hand is to be twisted is debated a lot.
im a believer in the twist at point of contact, other people teach that the twist is done as the punch moves from its chambered position on its way to the intended target because it increases the distance the punch is travelling to gain more energy and momentum.
i personally think the twisting contact causes more damage even though it elongates contact somewhat.

these are my opinions though


----------



## Navarre

Although at some stage in the rotating punch you would have the half punch, it is still utilized as two different strikes. I'm _almost_ in agreement with BCBonz about the rotation.

Rotating the punch entirely prior to striking is wasting the point of the rotation. If the punch is no longer rotating then the rotation itself served very little purpose.

However, I don't think the punch should rotate after it hits either. Once again, the rotation becomes a separate movement.

In the same way a rising block completes its rotation _as_ it makes impact, a punch should do the same. The full impact and rotation of the punch should occur simultaneously, not separately.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Navarre said:
			
		

> Although at some stage in the rotating punch you would have the half punch, it is still utilized as two different strikes. I'm _almost_ in agreement with BCBonz about the rotation.
> 
> Rotating the punch entirely prior to striking is wasting the point of the rotation. If the punch is no longer rotating then the rotation itself served very little purpose.
> 
> However, I don't think the punch should rotate after it hits either. Once again, the rotation becomes a separate movement.
> 
> In the same way a rising block completes its rotation _as_ it makes impact, a punch should do the same. *The full impact and rotation of the punch should occur simultaneously, not separately*.


 
thats precisely what i was trying to say.


----------



## Navarre

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> thats precisely what i was trying to say.


 
Then I'm with ya!


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Ok...it's back to class tonight.  Missed Monday because of Halloween.  My off day workouts have been 

three basic blocks, 100x with 2 lb weights
Middle, Upper and Hook punches 100x, no weights
Upper body light weights 20x-50x, low weight, 2 sets
Katas, Fug ich and ni 5x
Kicks, front, side, back and roundhouse 10x x 3 sets

It's been a tough couple weeks making it to class.  Too much family stuff going on.  I should be back to 3x week next week, though.


----------



## The Kai

Dude that's a great workout

I admire your zeal


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

well, I try to do something well-rounded when I can't make class.  And, I need to say, that's not all at once.  The upper body, kata and kicks are done in a group; then, after a bit of cooling down, I'll do the punches and blocks.  They tire me; but, the weights make for speed, I'm told.  Much later, I'll do some stretching watching the tube.  At 44, I need to do what I can when I can or significant progress won't materialize.


----------



## Flashing Dagger

Hello, I live here in Chillicothe, Ohio and Mr. Madden's dojo is just around the corner from my house. I have studied the art of kenpo for several years and while I have never been a student of Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan I have heard his name thrown around for all of my life it seems.

I think Don Madden is legit and his daughter is a well respected sport JuiJitsu champion. I am friends with several of his students and I have no beef with them. However, Mr. Madden's art seems to focus very much on competition sparring. Coming from a purely self-defense point of view, as kenpo does, it seems silly when one of Madden's students tells me that the backfist should "go the side of the head where the judge will be standing". I would hope that they are learning more than just dancing around throwing jabs at each other.

However I guess it all depends on what you are looking for. Competition point sparring is a difficult skill to learn, one that you can really delve into and be proud of your accomplishments. But I've always been a little turned off by all of the plaques, trophies and patches at the Ko Sutemi dojo. It makes people think that the fish is bigger than it really is.

By the way, Soke Don Madden holds a 9th degree in his own art.


----------



## Navarre

I agree, Dagger. Ko Sutemi is rather focused on competitions. Still, I have built my martial arts foundation on this system and have found it very well-rounded. 

Of course, back in the day (1984 to be exact) my particular sensei and dojo had already become more focused on practical application than tournament wins. 

As I have explored other systems I have found that almost everything I learned in Ko Sutemi has been applicable and of value. That which wasn't as valuable has been reduced or removed in my integrated system. 

Thus I can't really call it Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan but many of the techniques would be recognizable as originating from there.

It's interesting that you live so close to Mr. Madden. Hopefully he and Heather are doing well. I haven't seen them in years.


----------



## Flashing Dagger

Actually I live on Paint Street in downtown Chillicothe, perhaps a few blocks from the 2nd Street Dojo across from the Majestic theater.  I graduated from high school in 1991 and at that time everyone was talking about Tokey Hill, Tokey Hill, Tokey Hill.....  I've met both Heather and Mr. Madden a few times although I doubt if they would remember me.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Flashing Dagger said:
			
		

> Hello, I live here in Chillicothe, Ohio and Mr. Madden's dojo is just around the corner from my house. I have studied the art of kenpo for several years and while I have never been a student of Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan I have heard his name thrown around for all of my life it seems.
> 
> I think Don Madden is legit and his daughter is a well respected sport JuiJitsu champion. I am friends with several of his students and I have no beef with them. However, Mr. Madden's art seems to focus very much on competition sparring. Coming from a purely self-defense point of view, as kenpo does, it seems silly when one of Madden's students tells me that the backfist should "go the side of the head where the judge will be standing". I would hope that they are learning more than just dancing around throwing jabs at each other.
> 
> However I guess it all depends on what you are looking for. Competition point sparring is a difficult skill to learn, one that you can really delve into and be proud of your accomplishments. But I've always been a little turned off by all of the plaques, trophies and patches at the Ko Sutemi dojo. It makes people think that the fish is bigger than it really is.
> 
> By the way, Soke Don Madden holds a 9th degree in his own art.


 
Thank you for this insight.  My initial apprehension has, over the months, been calmed and, indeed, vanquished.  I have little doubt of Mr. Madden's legitimacy and have come to accept the emphasis on competition without rancor or worry.

In fact, the idea of rigorous competition appeals to me, somewhat.  If that were all Danny was teaching me, I would likely run off because I need a bit more depth.  I'm also being taught a measure of self-defence and Jujitsu is on the horizon, as well.

As to current classes, we had some returning adults last night and I had 3 additional people in my weight class to spar with.  That's a good thing for me.  I left last night with a stoved finger and a well-bruised shin.  I felt like I did some serious sparring for a change.

And I hear quite a bit about Tokey Hill, too   Sensei is a treasure trove of anecdotes   I hope to meet Mr. Madden soon.

:asian:


----------



## Navarre

I met Tokey Hill a long time ago (seems like maybe 1985 or '86).  He was friends with my sensei. I was so new back then I didn't even realize what he had accomplished.  

He was the guy who taught me the blitz attack. It has since become a vital part of my attack arsenal.  ... It also allows me to get the drop on my ju-jitsu classmates before they can grapple and plant me.  heh heh


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Sensei sez we'll have an opportunity to meet Tokey here in a couple weeks.  Road trip to Mt. Vernon (I think) to train at a dojo there and he should be there.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Last night, we began Pinan Shodan.  I added shuto uke to my regular workout as I feel like a dork when I do it; no confidence in exectuting it with force.  In Fugyugata ni, it was a smooth, slow move.

Pinan means peaceful mind and that is appropriate.  It is my current experience that MA is a perfect outlet for life's aggravations, harangues and harassments.  Lately, a one from my past has risen, full-force, to cause me difficulty by any means (currently, it seems to be perjury and fraud).  The frustration associated with these events is, indeed, massive.  By concentrating and focusing on my MA training, I have been able to disperse these emotions in a healthy fashion.  Further, with just a bit more effort, I am beginning to achieve similar control when it pops up and I am not in class.

I am grateful to MA for showing me a path to this control and near-peace.


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh

Flashing Dagger said:
			
		

> Hello, I live here in Chillicothe, Ohio and Mr. Madden's dojo is just around the corner from my house. I have studied the art of kenpo for several years...


Flashing Dagger, do you study with Greg Daniels?
Sorry to stray off-topic folks (Yeah, _right_, Randy. Like this is the first time).


----------



## Flashing Dagger

No, I don't study with Greg Daniels, but I know him.  I drive to Columbus for Kenpo now but My previous instructor got his 1st black from Greg.  Are you with Greg Daniels?


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh

No, I studied with Jay T. Will, so I can sympathize with your drive to Columbus for lessons  .


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh

OK, back to topic. 
A thought on the vertical vs. twist punch in Seiei-kan. Egg, you said your instructor studied under George Annarino. I know that both he and Don Madden were boxers in their youth. Perhaps this is the reason why they embrace the vertical fist punch in sparring. Of course, several other arts use it as well (Isshin-ryu springs to mind). Just something to think about.

Sorry, I'm all verklempt. Talk among yourselves.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> OK, back to topic.
> A thought on the vertical vs. twist punch in Seiei-kan. Egg, you said your instructor studied under George Annarino. I know that both he and Don Madden were boxers in their youth. Perhaps this is the reason why they embrace the vertical fist punch in sparring. Of course, several other arts use it as well (Isshin-ryu springs to mind). Just something to think about.
> 
> Sorry, I'm all verklempt. Talk among yourselves.


 
Yes, Not only was Mr. Annarino a boxer, he was raised by a boxer.  I can't deny the effectiveness, in kumite, of the straight jab.  

On another topic, I purchased Karate-Do Kyohan this weekend.  A wholly remarkable book.  Now, I have both of Funakoshi's seminal texts on karate.  Having read through the first part, I can see how invaluable they will be to me.


----------



## Flashing Dagger

Perhaps this question belongs under a JuJitsu thread, but since we are talking about Don Madden and his group, I was wondering if they still teach Sei Kan JuJutsu. I have in my possession 2 locally written books on the subject (vol I and vol II) by Mr. Madden and Bo Kimly (who my friend and I used to jokingly refer to as "the Big Swede"). I must admit I've always wanted to learn a competitive martial art and since their dojo is so close I may want to go down there and check it out.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Flashing Dagger said:
			
		

> Perhaps this question belongs under a JuJitsu thread, but since we are talking about Don Madden and his group, I was wondering if they still teach Sei Kan JuJutsu. I have in my possession 2 locally written books on the subject (vol I and vol II) by Mr. Madden and Bo Kimly (who my friend and I used to jokingly refer to as "the Big Swede"). I must admit I've always wanted to learn a competitive martial art and since their dojo is so close I may want to go down there and check it out.


 
Sensei sez, now and then, that we'll pull out the mats and do some jujitsu.  He's referenced those two texts a couple times.  I have yet to find them, myself.  Heck, I've got enough to learn right now anyways 

If you have the opportunity to visit Mr. Madden's dojo, I would be interested in hearing your tale.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia

Flashing Dagger said:
			
		

> Perhaps this question belongs under a JuJitsu thread, but since we are talking about Don Madden and his group, I was wondering if they still teach Sei Kan JuJutsu. I have in my possession 2 locally written books on the subject (vol I and vol II) by Mr. Madden and Bo Kimly (who my friend and I used to jokingly refer to as "the Big Swede"). I must admit I've always wanted to learn a competitive martial art and since their dojo is so close I may want to go down there and check it out.


 
Interesting.. what is this Seikan Jujutsu and how it was created? What was the root arts of this Seikan Jujutsu style? Or did Mr. Madden simply combined techniques from Karate and Judo in order to be able to compete under current JJIF rules (which are very much Karate rules+Judo rules)?


----------



## Navarre

I might be way wrong on this, being out of the official Seiei Kan loop for so long, but I believe Mr. Madden never had any jutsu in the art at all until it became popular via UFC and such. Then I started seeing it's incorporation into the art. 

I believe it, like most of Seiei Kan, has been adapted from other systems. Again, I'm fine with this because Seiei Kan has always had an open philosophy towards finding techniques that work. The style was previously lacking in this area and it has changed that, so I say Good.


----------



## Flashing Dagger

The two books that I have are entitled "Seiei-Kan Ju-Jitsu Vol I and Vol II", copyright 1994 with text by Bo Kimley and Donald Madden. I believe there was a time when Mr. Madden and Sensei Kimly teamed up together. It was Mr. Kimly that brought his own Ju-Jitsu program and syllabus to Mr. Maddens' dojo, but somehow the name "Seiei-Kan" became attached to it instead of the name of Mr. Kimly art from Sweden.

I don't know if he is still connected with Madden's group but just a few years ago I sat in and watched a Ju-Jitsu class at the Chillicothe dojo and it was taught by Heather Madden.

This is a bio of Bo Kimly from the United States Ju-Jitsu Federation website:

_Bo Kimly_
_Member, Board of Directors_
_US National Coach 2000-2001_

_Shihan Kimly is a 7th Dan in Ju-Jutsu and the Kumite fighting system Coach USA Ju-Jitsu Team._

_Born in Stockholm, Sweden, Shihan Kimly is the author of two books; Seiei Kan Ju-Jutsu - Vol. I & II. He is now living in Columbus, Ohio._

_Shihan Kimly started his martial arts training in 1964 and has been a professional instructor since 1988. He is the founder of six Ju-Jutsu Clubs in Stockholm and three in US, the Martial Arts Alliance, the Ju-Jutsu Club @ Ohio State University and the Ju-Jutsu Club @ Ross County Y.M.C.A. _

_A National Referee in both Ju-Jitsu and Karate, Shihan Kimly has also been a successful coach on the international level, coaching Nick Wolak to become World Champion in Sport Ju-Jitsu 1996. In 1999, Shihan Kimly coached in 1999 the USA Ju-Jutsu Team at the World Kobudo Federations World Championship in Quebec City, Canada and in 2000 four students from Martial Arts Alliance to become US Champions and US Team Members. Coaching the US Ju-Jitsu Team in 2000, Shihan Kimly's efforts resulted in the US Team taking all Gold against Canada at the Continental Championship in Canton, Ohio. Also coached the US Ju-Jitsu Team at the World Championship in Copenhagen, Denmark in November, 2000, and the North American Championships in 2001._

_Not limited to competitive Ju-Jitsu, Shihan Kimly is also an Instructor of Police Defense of Tactics and Police ASP Baton._


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia

Ah. If Mr. Kimly practices a Sweden version of Jujutsu, it could have been derived from Mr. Viking Cronholm's style, or maybe Mr. Kurt Durewall's style. Sweden has a government-sanctioned Jujutsu school since the 1960s if I am not mistaken, it's called Swedish Budo Federation style of Jujutsu. Thank you for the info!


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh

The Chillicothe dojo has jujitsu classes on Tuesday and Thursday evenings, if I recall correctly.

As to when Don Madden started teaching jujitsu, I couldn't say. I do remember calling him in the fall of 1974 to ask about jujitsu classes, and he said that he didn't practice it, but did have classes in karate and judo.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

I got to use a little jujitsu, of sorts Monday night.  My wife and I finally got a chance to spar in class.  She must've had an issue or two with me because she came at me all angry-cat-like; so, I swept her and dropped her then pinned her and told her, 'No.  One hit, one point'.  She thought that was funny.


----------



## Navarre

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> She thought that was funny.



I'm glad she seemed amused. ... Let me know if the couch was comfortable.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

lol...it wasn't quite that bad.  She really enjoys getting in a serious tussle.  I even suggested she might like MMA over karate.  Last night, we had our sensei, one of his blackbelts (Seieikan) and his son, also a blackbelt (TKD); so, there was a lot of teaching going on.

My wife learned a lot more about one strike one point and spent quite a bit of time with two of the black belts and came away very satisfied in what she'd learned.

Speaking for myself, I enjoyed sparring with the TKD black.  I've spent so much time sparring with Danny and Joe, both more hand fighters, that I'd almost forgot how much fun it was to fight someone with a lot of kicks.

Another tourney Sunday.  Our girl may compete in kata.  I'm still mulling over competing.  We'll attend, in any event.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Last night, I fixed Sensei's PC.  While it was updating and installing and blah-diddy-blah, I took the time to practice for today's competition, my 2nd competition.

I'm a white belt in Seieikan and I don't really expect much from my skill level...Only An Egg, you know; but, today, I was pleased with myself.

Of course, The Little Dragons all went first.  It's inspiring to see these little ones, 3-5 years old, repeating the Little Dragon Creed and performing their kata and basics.  It's good to know they're getting lessons in honor and dedication so young; lessons that will continue to endure long into their lives.

I performed Fukyugata Ni cause it makes my wife happy   I had two competitors in my class, this time; both very skilled.  I accepted first place 

Kumite was interesting. I went up against the same karateka as I did on my first competition.  It was another hard fight; but, he took the silver this time, again W00t for me!

As I took two 1st places, I was entered into the Grand Champion competition.  We all performed Fukyugata Ich for the trophy.  I now have a trophy in my house. 

It was a good competition.

My stepdaughter competed for the first time today.  She recieved the gold in kata and 2nd place, overall, in her class.  I am very _very_ proud of her.


----------



## Navarre

Congratulations, Egg!!!

Ma, sounds like you and your daughter both are off on a rockin' start with the tournament scene. Tournaments are a lot of fun. It gives us a chance to place ourselves under a bit of safe pressure and see what we can do. Looks to me like you do just fine.

One of my students (a tad older than me) started Ko Sutemi in 1989 or so along with his 6 year old daughter. A few years ago they had to build a new room on their house just to hold all their tournament trophies (No lie!).

Here's to your future home expansion!  Glad you had fun, buddy!


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Arigato, Navarre 

We're all very pleased by the way we competed.  My next goal is to get my stepdaughter to fight and my stepson to compete kata.  My wife will do as she wishes when she wishes 

On that note, my wife discovered that one of today's judges teaches a Muay Thai class 3 days a week and our GrandSensei's dojo.  She's looking into that seriously.  That's all I need...my wife Ong-Baking my butt.

heheh

Edit: I put the pics in the Gallery and on the bloggy thing


----------



## Navarre

Nice pics, Egg. Your kumite form looks very good indeed. 

You're protecting your chin and are nicely loaded for the reverse puch. Lots of guys don't keep their hands up or their elbows in. You're doing both. Good job! 

Some of your kata pics are blurred, clearly indicating to me that you possess superhuman speed. Your ability to move faster than the human eye can follow will surely serve you well when you spar for yellow belt.

I don't have nearly as many pics from my early years as I'd like. I have a few bits of old video (back when video cameras weighed a ton and took a whole bag just to hold the battery!).

It's funny (and humbling) to look back at some of the stuff. Mostly because of my scrawny nerdiness that I tried to defy by wearing my hair in a long ponytail. (It didn't work!).

I've never competed much in tournaments, unlike my student I mentioned. Still, I did come in second place in my weight division in the black belt sparring 2 yrs in a row at The State Championship. 

Once I came in second in the black belt overall finals (so second for the whole tournament). The techniques I'd learned years earlier from Tokey Hill really served me excellently.  I was lucky to get to learn such things as the Blitz from him.  

I had a lot of fun at the tournaments and that's what counts. I'm glad you did too.


----------



## The Kai

It looked like you had fun, and did well.  Congradulations


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> You're protecting your chin and are nicely loaded for the reverse puch. Lots of guys don't keep their hands up or their elbows in. You're doing both. Good job!


 
After a few days of Sensei's flank and belly punches, I learned to tuck my elbows in.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> Some of your kata pics are blurred, clearly indicating to me that you possess superhuman speed. Your ability to move faster than the human eye can follow will surely serve you well when you spar for yellow belt.


 
I had hoped the camera wouldn't catch that...it needs to be kept secret.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> I don't have nearly as many pics from my early years as I'd like. I have a few bits of old video (back when video cameras weighed a ton and took a whole bag just to hold the battery!).
> 
> It's funny (and humbling) to look back at some of the stuff. Mostly because of my scrawny nerdiness that I tried to defy by wearing my hair in a long ponytail. (It didn't work!).
> 
> I've never competed much in tournaments, unlike my student I mentioned. Still, I did come in second place in my weight division in the black belt sparring 2 yrs in a row at The State Championship.
> 
> Once I came in second in the black belt overall finals (so second for the whole tournament). The techniques I'd learned years earlier from Tokey Hill really served me excellently. I was lucky to get to learn such things as the Blitz from him.
> 
> I had a lot of fun at the tournaments and that's what counts. I'm glad you did too.


 
I plan to compete as much as possible because I find it a singular joy to do so; albeit, a nerve-wracking one.  Both times, it's been like that time right before a first date: apprehensive about what may or may not occur.  The competitions, though, have been wonderful experiemces, unlike most of my first dates.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Long time since I posted to this thread.

Classes are going well.  I practice almost every day there's no class.

Here's a thing, though, and it concerns me: last night, Sensei said that, when we compete outside of Seieikan, we should remove our org patches because we will be judged detrimentally because of the style.  Is this commen in MA, to be of a derided style or to be treated thus?  It makes me go 'hmmmmm'.


----------



## Navarre

I have sometimes found that tournaments judge ppl unfairly when from a different system. This isn't unique to Seiei Kan though. It has a lot to do with who has organized the tournament and who the judges are.

I have gone to tournaments where all the judges were from or affiliated with the school of the one who organized the tournament. In almost every instance, only their ppl won the gold.  

One of our black belts did an outstanding bo kata that blew everyone away. She tied with a person also doing bo from the host school. They redid their kata and the judges gave the nod to our student...but the host sensei overruled it. He claimed that her bo was an inch too long for her height and gave the award to the other student (who happened to be his star pupil).

This kind of discrimination is disgusting. It is completely against all that we are taught.

Still, I remind myself (and my students) that we are competing to do our best. That is not necessarily the same as winning. It shouldn't be like that, but it is.

Tournaments, like schools, are a terribly political creature. Despite this, I have never failed to wear my patches with pride. 

However, some tournaments have specific rules regarding patches so of course I adhere to those. There's nothing wrong with wearing a plain white gi if you choose. 

Win or lose (patch or not) just go, do your best, and have fun.


----------



## Navarre

On a side note, I'd like to say that this is a really good thread. I'm glad to see it's continuing because it goes beyond just one style and addresses a lot of what newer students question when first choosing an art.

I'm glad it was nominated for Most Helpful Post. I didn't nominate it myself so it's nice that someone else likes it.

Obviously I'll vote for it and force all of my students to vote for it. After all, we're from the same system and we should only support and acknowledge others from our system. ... At least that's the lesson I'd learned from a black belt at a tournament somewhere.  *sarcastic grin*


----------



## The Kai

I've heard the same comment about competeing and also while doing seminars.  To date I've never taken my patchs off any uniform.  You don't like my patchs, tough nuggies


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

lol...thanks, Navarre.  I just wasn't certain what to think after Sensei's comment.  It was a disconcerting piece of information.

Re: this thread.  It has been a constant source of good information for a beginner such as myself.  Thanks to you and everyone that's posted to it.  I am grateful.  :asian:


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Okay...after verifying funds with my CFO (read: wife), I am on for the tournament tomorrow. It's a big one compared to the two I've already done. I'm anticipating a Karate Kid size competition. A little nervous. A little apprehensive. That's ok, though. 

I think.

Here's the link to the form showing the levels of competition. Just a jpeg of the reg form; but, it gives some idea what I'm walking into.


----------



## Navarre

Lower levels seemed best defined by the variety found. These are all of the ppl who have hung in long enough to shw up at a tournament but before anyone has decided it's not for them.

I'd expect to see some promising competitors but also a lot of ppl who are stiff and/or with wild form. 

This is a good time to work on the relaxation I mentioned.  If you try to be *too* technical and perfect you'll be too preoccupied with your own form and will be one of those mechanical-looking competitors.

Your division could take a long time so be ready for it. I wouldn't worry about reviewing your opponents and all of that. Just move around some, watch what you like, and maybe make some new friends.

Which kata are you doing? Fuku-gata-ni? If you only know this and Ichi, the second one tends to look nice. It is also easier to hide any mechanical movement.

I'll look forward to hearing how it goes. Is your daughter competing too?


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Thanks, Navarre...relaxing my shoulders, hiding my intent has been an integral part of my practice lately.  I'm not as nervous now as I was when I posted.  My bag's packed, uniform's ready, all is good in the earth right now.

I'm doing Fukugata ni, yes...of the two, I like it better and, you're right, it's easier to be fluid in that kata...plus, my wife REALLY likes to see me do that one 

My stepdaughter is not competing...she said the last one made her nervous enough.  In her time.

As for me, I plan to see how the process works at this level and to observe as much as I can.  I'm hoping to enjoy the higher-belt kumite and weapons kata.  I imagibe it will be a long day.  I'll be there at 9:30.  Sensei (who is also competing) sez we'll be staying late, as well.

Until tomorrow, then!


----------



## Navarre

Depending on the hosy, most tournaments start with black belt weapon and open-hand katas as well as synchronized katas (if the tournament has it). Then they start with the lowest ranks and work their way up.

In larger tournaments they will have 5 or 6 rings going at the same time to help move things along. The black belt kumite should be last.

Usually the black belt kumite is divided down into 3 weight classes plus a Seniors (age 35+) division. Then, the winnder of those 4 divisions will compete against each other to get the Grand Champion in black belt kumite.

Now I'm old enough that I actually get to pick whether I want to compete with the 35+ black belts (often those 5th degree types who flow like water and hit like tanks) or in the middleweight division (the young bucks half my age who are in it to win).  From past experience, I prefer the Senior division. They are better technically but aren't as convinced they have to take your head home as a trophy.

Fun, Fun! Is your step-daughter going to go watch at least or is she taking a break?


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Truth be told, I will be competing in the Senior Novice Division.  I'm an old toddler...heheh.  Thing is, I don't have to take my competitor's head home as a trophy; but, I will, if I have to 

I have no idea how many rings; but, the flyer stated very clearly that I must have kumite competition in my division in order to qualify for Grand Champion.  This suggests that there my be a less than stellar across-the-board showing.  We'll see.

My goil, she be not wanting to spend 8 hours at comp...I suppose I can't blame her.  And it WILL be fun


----------



## Navarre

Since this is your first big tournament I suggest you take some time to get a feel for who the "top dog" is amongst the black belts. Most likely he or she will be an older individual of high rank and good-natured demeanor.

Then, during a time when many of the general public are around, openly approach this person. Claim your ability to be far superior to his and make a few derogatory remarks about both his school and his mamma. Then challenge him to open combat in the middle of the tournament floor.

This is a great way to get your name known amongst many schools. I think you will find this event to be most...educational.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

That sounds reasonable.  I will try it!

Should my selection be the largest or just the one that commands the most subservience?


----------



## The Kai

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> That sounds reasonable. I will try it!
> 
> Should my selection be the largest or just the one that commands the most subservience?


 
You should be able to find him easy by the pissing he's done to mark his territory.  Follow the smell.....


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Well...that was a long day.  I got to the comp at 9:30 and left after Sensei competed, about 6:00.

There were about 350 competitors in kumite, randori, grappling, kata and weapons.  There were 2 or 3 Haedong competitors, several Tai Chi and one gentleman, whom I didn't get to speak to, competing with Chinese broadsword.

I took 2nd in kata, 35-44 and
2nd in kumite, 35-44

I did not do a weapons form; but, I'm pulling out the chucks and will compete 3 for 3 next tourney.

This...was fun!

And no one pissed anywhere unnecessarily.


----------



## Navarre

It sounds like you made a great showing, Egg. Congratulations!!

How many ppl just in your division? ... Not that it matters too much. Apparently only 1 person gave you a run for your money.

Review all the tapes of his competition. Train 16-18 hrs per day (this may require quitting your job but you have to have your priorities straight).  Run up snow-covered mountains, wrestle oxen, that sort of thing. 

Then, next tournament, give the the eye of the tiger and say something to him like, "I will break you." I have faith in you, buddy!


----------



## tshadowchaser

great showing for your first outing.
Navarre gave some good advice about reviewing the tapes, tapes always show what you did good and where improvement can be made


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Thanks, all 

'wrestle oxen'  I like that!

I was made painfully aware of my errors, although reviewing the tapes will come in handy, too.  I know I telegraphed a couple times and I closed the gap ineffectively at least twice in the fights.  I'm still not as relaxed as wrestling oxen may make me.

There were 5 in my division.  I got a by for the first round; so, I only fought twice.  The gentleman that beat me, however, was Grand Champion for the division.  It's...ahem...obvious he had to work for it   That match was 3-2.  Right down to the wire.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre, here's a question.  Did you train Seieikan in W VA?  I met a Sensei from Parkersburg, Paul Snider and was wondering if you may've known (know) him.


----------



## Navarre

Yes, Egg, I trained in WV.  I am originally from Calhoun County.  It's near the center of the state.  If you ever want to visit there, drive to the edge of the world and hang a left.  The population dropped by 50% the day I left.

My sensei is Don Underwood. He used to be a social studies teacher at the high school.  I met him there in school but started Seiei Kan under him.

His instructor was Mr. Madden. I first met Mr. Madden in 1984 in Parkersburg.  He tested me for the kata portion of my yellow belt test. At that time I was so new to everything I didn't even realize how important he was.

I don't know Paul Snider, sorry.  However, I believe Don is living in Vienna or Parkersburg now.  

I very much regret that he and I have lost touch over the last 5 or 6 years.  It's a complicated chain of events that still doesn't excuse the fact that I'm not in touch with the man who's like a father to me.

There are several Seiei Kan schools in the area and I still have a lot of connections if I needed to dig someone up. Let me know if there's any info or help you need.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Thanks for responding oh so quickly, Navarre.  Actually, not long after I posted, I did a search on your style and turned up the site for your dojo.  Lots of good info!

There is a Seieikan tournament coming up down West Virginia way.  I haven't decided on attendance to this next one or not.  I may wait until later in the year and see if there's any others.


----------



## Navarre

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I did a search on your style and turned up the site for your dojo. Lots of good info!


 
You may have come across my old web page by mistake. The new web page, unfortunately, is having some issues that I need to resolve so it may not come up at all. The information is largely the same except the older one is out of date. I really need to get this fixed.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Yeah...I noticed you're belt level wasn't current on the site I visited.


----------



## Navarre

Try entering this address into your browser. Don't click on it because that will just load the parent directory and be confusing:

http://www.geocities.com/navarre_2001/Aze-Ki/

and then manually type any of the following extensions after it. It's the links that's broken.

history.htm
karate.htm
jujitsu.htm
senseis.htm
gallery2.htm

Hopefully that'll come out okay. The whole site is like 2 yrs out of date. Sorry. 

I'm the one who put together the page but it's my partner who runs all the schools now (thanks to moving with the wife). He and I aren't in touch as often as I'd like so I haven't kept the site up to date. Makes us look pretty unprofessional. 

I'm working on some ways to get this back up and going though. It's largely just for ppl in our area but it's still our internet face to the world.

Let me know what you think of it. Thanks, Egg.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

hrm...that's the site I was at earlier.  I had to view source in order to see what was in the java dropdowns.  I may be able to do a thing or two to help.  Gimme a bit of time.

The tourney in WVA that I mentioned is linked  here.

Edit: Nope, I take that back.  The page I was at was phoenix.htm.  Same directory, though.


----------



## Navarre

phoenix.htm is the first page that loads up when ppl go to aze-ki.com
It is supposed to load the visit counter, link buttons, and our phoenix logo is supposed to rise up onto the screen.  The buttons are not loading though.

As for my rank being incorrect, I believe it is correct here. I am second degree in Ko-Sutemi Seiei Kan and 4th degree in Manabi-Masho Ju-Jitsu and Shoo-Jin. 

But my original style is Seiei Kan. I just haven't been able to train under anyone since 1997.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Try putting the fphover.class in the next directory up. If I read the code correctly, it's looking for it there. Maybe the fphoverx.class, too. I read:


		Code:
	

[SIZE=2]
codebase="../" 
[/SIZE]


meaning that the codebase is in the next directory up. That could be the problem

_Edit:  Wait...strike that.  I may not be able to see what's happening because that class file is blocked by our fire-flippin-wall.  Lemme look at it from home._


----------



## Navarre

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> _Edit: Wait...strike that. I may not be able to see what's happening because that class file is blocked by our fire-flippin-wall. Lemme look at it from home._


 
Okay, will do. Thanks, Egg!


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> Okay, will do. Thanks, Egg!


 
You're welcome   It's what I do.

Now...let's get this topic back on track!

I get my yellow belt as soon as I pay the Union Dues.  I should be green by February, at the latest.  I have to say, though, it's been fun to present myself as a white belt.  I get to surprise my opponents that way.


----------



## Navarre

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I get my yellow belt as soon as I pay the Union Dues. I should be green by February, at the latest.


 
What happened to blue belt? Isn't blue still between yellow and green?


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> What happened to blue belt? Isn't blue still between yellow and green?


 
erp!  I don't honestly know or else I'm brainlocked with the TKD heirarchy.  I should be (how's this) Post-Yellow by the beginning of February.


----------



## Navarre

lol That'll work.

The progression of belts (back in the olden days) was:

White, Yellow, Blue, Green, Purple, Brown, Brown (2nd degree), Black (and degrees thereof).


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Cool.  Thanks, Navarre.

Yesterday, at work, I was out in the RADIAC building doing some updates.  I knew one woman out there competed in TKD for some time; so, I started her talking about it.  Turns out she practiced ATA TKDfor some 11 years and was only to ready to brag about it   A little later, another coworker came in and, as it turns out, he is involved in karate, as well!  He knows my sensei and my sensei's sensei,too.  He took the time to explain to me the three levels of blocking/striking and how to move off-center when my opponent is closing the gap along the center.  I was ready to try this out at class last night.  Unfortunately, sensei didn't seem to get the memo and was attacking me off center all evening.
It was a nice, small class.  I got to sparrwith sensei and another black and there was a lot more detailed information as there were fewer people attending.  Moreover, I was introduced to the bo.  I made sensei happy by knowing that the weapon was an extension of my hand.  He took some time to talk about striking along the center and holding the bo properly.  He also had me promise to take him with me when I buy mine.
I got to show off my trophies to our two classes this week and sensei bragged up a storm on me   Too right, eh?  Now, my next step, seriously, is to get the rest of my classmates to tourney, too.  There's little or no tourney involvement.  I don't get it.


----------



## Navarre

Many ppl, even some higher ranks, lack the confidence to step in front of 300 ppl and put themselves on display. This is especially true with martial arts because it's something you love but are afraid being judged (literally).  

It is a very individual display and so you really put yourself on the line (literally, again).  One of the several reasons I like tournaments is because it develops the ability to face mental obstacles, to perform under stress, and to own up to who we are. 

A tournament may be as close to a real fight as it is to yodeling but it has its good points too.  I hope you get some company the next time you go to one.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

I agree with the yodelling analogy.  Competition is the arena, though, where I can place myself in the order, overall (at least for one day).  It's where I can put the teachings I've recieved into practice.  To me, competition, in Seieikan, at least, is integral to the art.

I'm holding myself back from saying cometition should be integral to most MA; but, only because I don't really know it all.


----------



## Navarre

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I'm holding myself back from saying cometition should be integral to most MA; but, only because I don't really know it all.


 
That's okay. I still have 2 or 3 days to go before I've learned and mastered all of martial arts myself. There are many styles and thousands of years; it's taken me the better part of a month to master it all.

btw, next time you're shooting in at an angle, try actually going at a close angle against his guard side (the raised blocking hand). The arm is often strong and prepared for a direct assault. However, it's easily tapped out of the way at the elbow. 

If he's an orthodox fighter his left hand will be up at his face. Shoot close to his left arm. Keep your own left up as you come in to protect from a potential left backfist. 

Once inside of his backfist range, pop your left hand down in a short arc and sweep his left arm aside by directing his elbow inward. As simultaneously as possible strike either his head or his now-exposed ribs with your right reverse punch.

Hope it works for you. Have fun!


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Oh, _that_ old trick?


----------



## Navarre

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Oh, _that_ old trick?


 
Y'see? You really have mastered all of martial arts after all.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> Y'see? You really have mastered all of martial arts after all.


 
Then why do these chucks keep cracking the back of me skull?


----------



## Navarre

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Then why do these chucks keep cracking the back of me skull?



It's an advanced conditioning technique. Now be quiet and finish your exercises.


----------



## tshadowchaser

The chucks are just checking to make sure they don't have weak spots in them.  They do this by hittinfg objects harder then themsleves most of the time.
Best of luck on you upcomeing test  (which ever belt it may be)

Many folks find that there are other martial arts practictioners  where they work.. It is the ones that don't run around bragging about their expertise that you seem to get the most information from when you discover who they are.  enjoy the comradeship you may get from these people and the knowledge they may give you


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Thanks, TS.  Recieving a belt has been delayed largely because I wanted to spend the $40 for AKJU membership on Christmas and, just as much, because I wanted to observe the organization some before I aligned with it as a member.  I'm already at yellow level, so I've been told, and will recieve that belt when I cough up the dough,  The next real test will be blue.

Honestly, the chucks are searching for this 'weak spot' because I'm doing a reverse shoulder pass and I know I shouldn't be practicing that, yet.  I suspect it's some form of reminder that I shouod practice what I should practice and not extend myself beyond that.  Maybe, they're magic chucks?


----------



## Navarre

Hey, Egg, have you had any progress learning the moves to the first Seiei Kan chuck kata?


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> Hey, Egg, have you had any progress learning the moves to the first Seiei Kan chuck kata?


 
Actually, no.  Danny is pressing me toward learning the Bo ichi; so, no chucks (sanctioned) at this time.  I'm still working on basic passes, stops  and spins on my own, though.  When the time comes, it should just be a simple act of placing them all together in kata.


----------



## Navarre

So, do you still want to know the moves of the kata or wait? I started typing them all out but haven't finished. Videoing it would be easier maybe.

How's Bo Ichi going? I took down the link to the vid file because it was eating up space on my site.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> So, do you still want to know the moves of the kata or wait? I started typing them all out but haven't finished. Videoing it would be easier maybe.
> 
> How's Bo Ichi going? I took down the link to the vid file because it was eating up space on my site.


 
I would love to have the moves.  I would so stun Danny   Bo has not begun....holidays are too close and classes are spread farther apart d/t that fact.  He wants me to take him with me when I purchase the weapon, too, and I haven't done that, yet.

I copied locally the Bo kata you had posted.  So, I thank you for that.

:asian:


----------



## Navarre

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I copied locally the Bo kata you had posted.  So, I thank you for that.



Oh, sure. You're welcome. ... Now please remit $24.95 to my personal account. Major credit cards accepted.

I'll see what I can do with the chuck kata. I'll say right now that it's not one that we spent a lot of time on in our class. You might want to verify the moves with someone before the Grand Unveiling to your sensei. 

We've always tried to keep every move of every kata the same through generations but we were so removed from the Org for a long time. Something may have changed.

For example, our opening move is to swing one chuck in a regular clockwise circle while chanting "Woo-Woo! Woo-Woo!" ... You might want to double-check that move.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> For example, our opening move is to swing one chuck in a regular clockwise circle while chanting "Woo-Woo! Woo-Woo!" ... You might want to double-check that move.


 
It doesn't matter if that's right or not, I'm doing it


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh

Egg, I don't know if this is something which interests you, but I caught wind that Don Madden is trying to arrange a tournament connection in Taiwan, similar to his situation with the Irish Cup. Team members would get transportation and lodging at a discount. 
Just passin' a rumor along  .


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> Egg, I don't know if this is something which interests you, but I caught wind that Don Madden is trying to arrange a tournament connection in Taiwan, similar to his situation with the Irish Cup. Team members would get transportation and lodging at a discount.
> Just passin' a rumor along  .


 
Thanks, Randy.  That would be an incredible adventure, to be certain.  I'm sure I'll be at some competition that he's at, too, this 1st quarter.  I'll see what he has to say about it.


----------



## Navarre

I've had a few students and senseis attend the Irish Cup. They had a great time. 

I'd recommend going if you get the chance. Tournament stuff aside, it would be a great chance to have a new experience.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

It's not so much the chance that hinders...it's the $$$.  We're a single income household with 3 kids.  Going to Taiwan or Ireland is still dream-level stuff.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

I took my new bo into class last night.  It recieved Sensei's approval as it is a traditional, solid, hefty bo.

He began to teach me Bo Ich.  I had some questions and we worked on it a bit; then, upon saying, 'That kata's kind of boring', he began to teach me Shishi no kun dai.

In the research I've done, I see that the kata was developed by Taira Shinken, a student of Funakoshi Sensei, and, in Issinryu, it is an advanced kata.  

Anyone else have experience with this kata?


----------



## Navarre

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Anyone else have experience with this kata?


 
No, afraid not. Is this an "official" Ko Sutemi bo kata or simply borrowed in?


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Navarre said:
			
		

> No, afraid not. Is this an "official" Ko Sutemi bo kata or simply borrowed in?


 
Given what I've read about it, so far, definitely borrowed.


----------



## Navarre

I have a pretty nice bo kata that we've incorporated. Maybe I can get a vid for you.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

That'd be cool   Thanks!  Last night, one of our bbs whipped through Bo Ich and, so, I am practicing that as well, thanks to your other vid; which, by the way, is still right on.


----------



## Navarre

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> thanks to your other vid; which, by the way, is still right on.


 
Really? I'm almost surprised. lol

As I mentioned way back, the vid was only a walk-through to look at a few moves. The techniques, particularly the footwork wasn't tight in the vid I made.

Still, I'm glad to see Bo Ichi (as I remember it) resembles the official version more than, say, a flag routine from the high school band camp.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

If the bo positions and moves are correct, cleaning up the footwork will be a breeze.  I need to look closer at it and see if I can discern the grip changes that occur.


----------



## Navarre

Bo Ichi doesn't have any grip changes. (yawn)


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Then, it's just me; because, my hands keep getting tangled up.


----------



## Navarre

Grip the bo in front of you, holding it parallel to the ground.  Both hands are in the standard position: shoulder-width apart with thumbs toward each other on the inside gripping the bo.

Other than the bow-in/bow-out where you release the bo with your left hand while bowing, your hands don't move. At least this is how I know it to be.

...

...

oh sorry, I nodded off there while thinking about this fascinating weapon kata.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Ok, got it.  I transcribed the video and practiced it over the las couple evenings.  Yes, it is kind of dull; but, nonetheless, I have to crawl before I can leap tall buildings.

Competition this Sunday.  I'll use this bo kata as well as Fugyugata Ni and sparring to be entered in all three areas and compete for Grand Champion.


----------



## Navarre

Good luck, Egg! As always I'm sure you'll have fun.

I think it's fine to know a more advanced bo kata. However for the competition I wouldn't say it would help you.

I always look for the same 5 elements in a kata: Power, Focus, Concentration, Balance, and Form. This would apply to Bo Ichi or some Matrix/Uber-Jedi kata. 

The very nature of a more advanced kata means it's harder to get all 5 elements incorporated properly.  Therefore, I've had to score some beginners lower for a more advanced kata than for, say, Bo Ichi.

I appreciate their determination but also consider it may be only ego.  Either the kata performance is good or it's not.  In that respect Bo Ichi is a great place to start.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

I'm as guilty as the next person of wanting to do the really cool stuff ASAP; but, honestly, if I maintain a sense of wonder no matter where my training is, I will be happy and feel cool.

When the time is right for me, I'll be doing the Matrix/Uber-Jedi kata and hanging in the air like Trinity.  In the meantime, I'm Ichi all over and that's good, too.


----------



## Navarre

Yep, I agree. Eh, you should work all your katas consistently anyway. 

So, the first bo kata you learned should pretty much always be the one you've done the most.  My sensei, at 3rd degree black, won the Men's Black Belt Weapon Division against 9 competitors using Bo Ichi. 

He wanted to show that it was the person who makes the kata, not the other way around. he was right.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Last night's class was amazing!

Typically, I'm in a class with several many kids.  Lately, though, Sensei's split the Thursday class into kids and big kids   Last night, we had the addition of four karateka from a nearby Shotokan dojo.  2 adult BB, 1 junior BB and a young red.

As we were all adult, or mid to late teens in the class, we warmed up as we do normally; then paired off and worked on techniques.  This may not sound strange to many of you; but, with all the little ones, class tends to be mostly basics and kata with sparring.  Doing techniques was both strenuous and educational.  I felt I recieved a lot more from class than usual.

I was fortunate enough to pair with a Shotokan BB about my age and build and learned quite a bit as I got pummeled.  I am hoping this trend continues.  

The Sensei of the visiting school also invited me (us) to visit his dojo, which I will do.

Man, I hurt today.  That is good


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh

By the way, my infosource told me today that he was mistaken about the locale of the proposed upcoming tourney.  It's supposed to be in Thailand, not Taiwan. 
Sorry for passing bad info.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Oh...I can't go there, either


----------



## twendkata71

First of all, Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan is not an off shoot of Shotokan,even though there are many elements of Shotokan that have been added over the years. It is an offshoot of the Koei kan style. Which Soke Madden Studied in Japan. Not Okinawa. During the 1950's and 60's. 
Also with so many style being part of the organization, these styles have been blended in to develop the style further. I have been in the Ko Sutemi Seiei kan system for 25 years. I have been a student of Soke Madden for 17 years.  Now, The original style that Ko Sutemi seiei kan comes,(Koeikan) comes from Okinawa originally. the Founder of Koei kan (Eizo Onishi) was a student of Kanken Toyama,from Okinawa. Soke Madden studied with Onishi directly and later with other masters in the Koeikan style. Then went his separate way for one reason or another in the late 60's  Yes,at Soke Maddens dojo they do focus a lot on sport competition,but not all of the time. And many of us teaching the style teach karatedo as the total package. (self defense,kata,competition,research,etc.). 
As far as Soke Maddens Jujitsu goes. His father was a merchant marine in the 20's and 30's and that is where while in Asian ports he studied Jujitsu from different teachers , Japanese and other. Before WWII broke out. He started teaching his son in 1942,along with boxing. Later on Soke Madden while in Japan studying karate do,was able to work on his Jujitsu training further and expand on what his father had started teaching him. 
If you have any doubts of his qualifications. Visist his dojo. All of his certifications in karatedo and jujitsu,up to 8th dan were international organizations and Japanese organizations. Later after many years of being the same rank. He was given his 9th and later 10th dans from a group of his master students as well as several international organizations. He is in his 70's and fits the guidelines. He also has a 6th dan in Judo from the USJA.   If you have anymore questions about the Ko Sutemi Seiei kan please feel free to ask.


----------



## twendkata71

*Oh, if anyone has any question of the legitimacy of Soke Maddens ranks. He was cerifited 8th dan by, the World Karate federation,(which he was at one time on the technical congress) , USA Karate Federation(Which he was the head of the USA team coaching staff., Pan American Union of karatedo Organizations.  He also has a masters ranking in Shoalin Kung fu. He is well know in the Traditional karate circles. personal friends and professional martial arts associates include, George Anderson(President of the USA Karate Federation), Kiyoshi Yamazaki(Japan Karate do Ryobukai), Teriyuki Mikami( International Shotokan Karate federation), Hidey Ochiai( Wasshin ryu),Ridgley Able (Shuri ryu),Katsumi Niikura (Ryokukai international). All of which are well respected masters in their own right. He spent several years studying in Japan.  As far as his student promoting him. It was more of a recognition of rank rather than a promotion. He is well known in the martial arts and karate do community for his contributions  to the arts in over 60 years of study and practice. :asian: *


----------



## twendkata71

More information for all interested.
Ko sutemi seiei kan uses the Pinan 1-5 kata, names instead of the Heian names because the style the Seiei kan comes from Koei kan used the Pinan names.  We have members from many different styles of karate, including Shorin ryu, Shoto kan, Goju ryu, Uechi ryu, Isshin ryu, Taekwondo as well as many eclectic systems. Soke Madden has incouraged us to learn from all styles of martial arts. That way we can be more well rounded as martial artists as welll as being leaders in the martial arts community. The involvement of so many styles in the organization also gives us a hugh catalog of kata and training methods to choose from. 
Soke Maddens daughter Shihan Heather Madden teaches Jujitsu and Aikido at his dojo, as welll as karate classes when Soke is not there.
Some other great master instructors in our organization are:
George Annarino 9th dan, Lynn Summers 9th dan, Brent Bias 8th dan, Paul Snider 6th dan, Traylon Smith 7th dan. Jim Grubb(not sure about his rank), Jim Cottrell 7th dan, Larry Zahand 7th dan, Chris Nicholas 7th dan. There are several more,but many names I cannot remember.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

I went back for my first class after a 7 week break while I cleaned my wife out of my system.

I am sore, bruised, achey and have been pummeled by those older and younger than me.

It
Feels
Great
!


----------



## ryudo634

I'm a white belt under Don Madden. Did anyone attend the tournament at Westland High School on the 13th? I fought in the 17 to 34 white through blue belt division.


----------



## twendkata71

*Hello there, I am a black belt under Soke Don Madden. I have not been down to the dojo in some time. I did not have a chance to go to the tournament. Had a training injury. It is good to hear from students at Soke's dojo in Chillicothe.  *


----------



## kody45601

i am also a white belt under soke madden, i enjoy training with him very much.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

So, all you students of Soke Madden, how are your classes?  What sort of format do you use?  I train under Danny Phillips in Thornville.  Typically, we'll do 25 minutes of basics/kata, break and then 25 minutes of sparring.  Now and then, we tend to some sd techniques geared towards women and children.  Lately, we've done some line drills, too.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

As for me, I began learning Pinan Nidan tonight.  I test for blue end of july.  I have Pinan Shodan down; but, it's still a bit shakey and unrefined.  Class has been good, lately.  Danny's opening a new location now that he's retired; so, I'm looking forward to an extra day of class per week.


----------



## ryudo634

Really, we just work on what Soke Madden decides we should work on that day. We have class twice a week, and it usually runs a little over an hour. Recently we've been working on sparring techniques alot. When we work on kata, it's more of an individual thing. If you don't know a kata, someone that does know it will help you out. If you do, you just practice it on your own, till whoever is leading the class decides to work on sparring/techniques.


----------



## ryudo634

Anyone going to the interclub tournament on July 8th in Logan? I'll be there. Hope to see some of you guys there.


----------



## twendkata71

*Hello, I plan on going to the interclub tournament. We used to have them all of the time back in the mid 80's.  And as for Soke Madden's dojo classes yes is it pretty much like that all of the time. From time to time we used to have guest instructors come in  and teach special classes. Soke Madden travels a lot and was in and out when I was training there.  I miss the days when we trained in the old dojo in the front. It had the hard wood floors and it was small,but we had many champions come out of that old dojo. *
*When I teach I like to change things up quite a bit. When we have kata I focus on working on correcting the students kata and working on the kata in depth. That is something that Soke Madden rarely did. But, he has always been more of a fighting coach. *
*I also work on self defense techniques a lot. We do kumite in class,but different types of kumite. free sparring,yakosuko kumite(from my Okinawan Shorin ryu days), and full contact with chest protectors(For advanced student only). We spend the first half hour on basics and drills.*


----------



## TheHeathen

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Well Egg,
> You seem to be a little defensive about the kata thing, .. blah blah blah



Which is basically what I got from your post.

Soke Madden *is* a good guy. But that's not important here. What *IS* important is that SeieiKan is as real a style as any of the others out there. And Soke Madden is as real a Sensei AND Soke as any of the others out there. Your slick attitude about something you have never experienced speaks volumes about you. Your lack of respect for another's style demonstrates your unworthiness as a Karateka.

So this is my first post in this forum. I trust with the vitriolic nature of the post I am replying to, my post is well within the rules of the TOS of this board, and I will not be punished for such a reply.


----------



## TheHeathen

Kosokun said:
			
		

> If you've followed the history of how organizations form and break up, you'll find that it *is* the tradition.
> 
> Kidding aside, Gene's the real deal guys.  He's been around the corner a bunch and like me, more times than not, the guys we've seen popping up as soke here in the states over the years are, well charlatans.   Gene's a valuable resource for this board, and when you get to know him, he's got a great sense of humor.  He plays a little rough, sometimes, but like the tough fighter in the dojo, you can learn a lot from him and improve because he pushes you.
> 
> 
> Rob



Sorry, I don't see where I can learn anything from someone who can so ignorantly attack a style and its leader, when he knows nothing about it. I am not in the market to learn how to be an egomaniac, so I will skip the tutelage from Gene.


----------



## TheHeathen

Kosokun said:
			
		

> Just in case there may have been any misunderstandings, Mr. Madden is a friend of mine. He is indeed quite accomplished.  I have a great deal of warmth and respect for him.
> 
> Rob



And you do him an injustice by allowing your "friend", Gene to slander him so. With friends like you...

But I have been with this organization for many many years, and I know the types of people who "claim" to be friends with Soke Madden. I also know the treachery and the duplicitousness that many of them are capable of. It is that same good heartedness that makes him a great guy, that allows the many who have betrayed him to have the opportunity to repeat that offense.


----------



## TheHeathen

Navarre said:
			
		

> I might be way wrong on this, being out of the official Seiei Kan loop for so long, but I believe Mr. Madden never had any jutsu in the art at all until it became popular via UFC and such. Then I started seeing it's incorporation into the art.
> 
> I believe it, like most of Seiei Kan, has been adapted from other systems. Again, I'm fine with this because Seiei Kan has always had an open philosophy towards finding techniques that work. The style was previously lacking in this area and it has changed that, so I say Good.



Forgive me if this has already been answered. I am wading through the posts here on my virgin voyage through this message board.

Soke Madden started his martial arts training with JuJitsu. That is his "mother syle", if you will. From there, he began to learn other styles of martial arts, and was one of the first in the area to bring "such a thing" to Ohio. For him to begin teaching JuJitsu, was, albeit chronologically reversed, a natural progression. He started teaching Karate and when the time was right, and people wanted something different, he brought in JuJitsu. Having privately trained a few over the years, he was easily able to gather together enough of them to spread it, like wildfire, through his already established organization.


----------



## TheHeathen

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> The Chillicothe dojo has jujitsu classes on Tuesday and Thursday evenings, if I recall correctly.
> 
> As to when Don Madden started teaching jujitsu, I couldn't say. I do remember calling him in the fall of 1974 to ask about jujitsu classes, and he said that he didn't practice it, but did have classes in karate and judo.



Seieikan JuJitsu is taught on Tuesday evenings, immediately after the adult karate class. 

Tuesdays 7:30PM until around 9:30PM


----------



## TheHeathen

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Long time since I posted to this thread.
> 
> Classes are going well.  I practice almost every day there's no class.
> 
> Here's a thing, though, and it concerns me: last night, Sensei said that, when we compete outside of Seieikan, we should remove our org patches because we will be judged detrimentally because of the style.  Is this commen in MA, to be of a derided style or to be treated thus?  It makes me go 'hmmmmm'.


Egg, I'm not going to go into the details of it here. But ask Sensei Philips if he knows the story of "The Rogue Patch" (aka "The Rebel Patch").

I apologize now for the size of the picture..

_***MODERATOR NOTE:  IMAGE REMOVED - PLEASE CONSULT TERMS OF SERVICE AND RULES REGARDING THE POSTING OF IMAGES - G KETCHMARK / SHESULSA, MT SUPERMODERATOR.***_

This is the new patch. Some may or may not be familliar with the old patch. At one time, as the story goes, it struck fear into the hearts of every competitor that saw his opponent donning it. 

I am currently unable to find an image of the "Rogue Patch", yet I am confident that there is one out there somewhere. 

However, ask Sensei Philips and/or Sensei Anno about the story. I am sure at least one of them will be able to do it justice. 

You will then have your answer as to why it is not wise to wear your patch to a tournament that is not within our organization.


----------



## TheHeathen

The Kai said:
			
		

> I've heard the same comment about competeing and also while doing seminars.  To date I've never taken my patchs off any uniform.  You don't like my patchs, tough nuggies



I agree with this mentality, Kai. Unfortunately, there are those that would judge certain competitors differently, based on the patches they wear. It isn't fair, but as you can see by the attitude of one of the posters here on this thread, it is a sad reality that when competing, your patch/identity can be a liability.


----------



## TheHeathen

Navarre said:
			
		

> Since this is your first big tournament I suggest you take some time to get a feel for who the "top dog" is amongst the black belts. Most likely he or she will be an older individual of high rank and good-natured demeanor.
> 
> Then, during a time when many of the general public are around, openly approach this person. Claim your ability to be far superior to his and make a few derogatory remarks about both his school and his mamma. Then challenge him to open combat in the middle of the tournament floor.
> 
> This is a great way to get your name known amongst many schools. I think you will find this event to be most...educational.



You're evil.. I like that in a person.


----------



## TheHeathen

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *Hello, I plan on going to the interclub tournament. We used to have them all of the time back in the mid 80's.  And as for Soke Madden's dojo classes yes is it pretty much like that all of the time. From time to time we used to have guest instructors come in  and teach special classes. Soke Madden travels a lot and was in and out when I was training there.  I miss the days when we trained in the old dojo in the front. It had the hard wood floors and it was small,but we had many champions come out of that old dojo. *
> *When I teach I like to change things up quite a bit. When we have kata I focus on working on correcting the students kata and working on the kata in depth. That is something that Soke Madden rarely did. But, he has always been more of a fighting coach. *
> *I also work on self defense techniques a lot. We do kumite in class,but different types of kumite. free sparring,yakosuko kumite(from my Okinawan Shorin ryu days), and full contact with chest protectors(For advanced student only). We spend the first half hour on basics and drills.*



Hey, Tim.. how goes it?

I miss the old Dojo also. A lot of memories and good times there. 

The way classes are structured seems to work.. Soke has been doing this for HOW LONG? And has put out some of the best fighters and kataka in the world. You, Traylon, Butch, Jim and Jim, Joe.. too many to list here. 

Incidently, I am not sure I will make it to the tournament in Logan. There's a lot going on lately.. trying to work up a benefit to get some money rolling in for those that want to go to Thailand. And a friend of mine and myself just opened our own school in Obetz. Things, as you can imagine are very busy. Figure into that those things that happen in life outside of karate, that tend to make one sit back and reflect.. and you have even less time than you started with. 

I saw this mentioned earlier. In November.. actually late October, the team is traveling to Bangkok Thailand for the first ever Thailand Cup. It should be a lot of fun and a great experience for those who like to travel abroad and compete.

You can find information on it here.


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## twendkata71

*Hello,back to you. I am not knocking the way the Soke madden runs his class. I have always enjoyed his classes.  I personally focus a lot on kata when I teach. But, I also work on kumite.  Soke knows his kata,just didn't focus on kata as much and rarely corrected us on our kata.  I am glad to hear that you started a class in Obetz. I work in the Obetz area. Where is your class? *
*As far as some of the other posts go. I remember the story of the old Ko Sutemi dojo patches. I had one at one time from when I started in 1981, then they changed. They have changed several times over the years. I have almost every one except the new one.*
*Soke did tell us years ago to not wear our patch to other organizations tournements. Because our people usually win more than anyone else,a lot of the other organizations would judge against us if we were wearing our association patch. Most of us when we were involved with the USAKF would just wear that patch or nothing on our gi.    I thought of making a Seiei kan patch with the Japanese kanji characters to wear. Many karate instructors can't read Japanese. Also on a side note,back in the 70's when ko sutemi people wore the "rogue patch"(Ko sutemi dojo), they also wore black karate gi. which at that time made our people look like the kenpo people. Times change. I personally hate the politcal stuff that goes on at tournaments. I have always judged fairly. *


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## shiro

I read here that Mr. Madden did not teach Jujutsu until after the first UFC this is not true  the first UFC was in 1993 Madden started his Jujutsu program in 1991.
I thought i would clear that up
thank you


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## twendkata71

*That is true. Soke Madden did not get the Jujitsu program up an running until 1991. He had talked about it for years. He was so involved with the USAKF karate team program that he did not have the time.  He was also on the WUKO/WKF technical commitee,so his time was extremely occupied.  When the USAKF lost its NGB status, Soke Madden resigned as the Head of the Coaching staff for the US team. There was a lot of political struggles going on just before Mr. Thuiry split away and started the USANKF and got the support to take the NGB status away from the USAKF.  *
*Now onto the subject of Seiei kan being a combination of several styles of karate. We have caught a lot of flak over the years for borrowing kata from different styles. One,With Soke Madden being involved with the USAKF/WUKO programs, Members were incouraged to learn the Wuko/WKf kata for international competition. Plus our organization has martial artists from many different styles. The AKJU is a multi style organization. Soke Madden has always believed that all martial arts have value. This is nothing new. Karate masters over the ages have done this. Funakoshi did this when he studied two different styles before starting the Shotokan. Mabuni collected kata from several different places,before calling his style Shito ryu.  Ohtsuka was a Jujitsu man and picked up karate and added it to his curriculum before calling his style Wado ryu.  80 years ago karate was karate. It wasn't until the Japanese commercialized karate and added thier own spin on it did the Idea of only studying one style come about.  *
* Soke Madden has studied martial arts for 60 years,if you look at most of the Japanese and Okinawan masters, many of them have split off and started their own style or system after 20 or 30 years of study with their parent style. But, when a westerner does it,it is supposed to be bad or not as valid.  I don't buy it. *
*Now there are many Black belts our there that claim to start their own system,style and take on high dan ranks,through one way or another that do not have much substance, but this is not the case with Seiei kan. We have a firm foundation of traditional karate. *


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## shiro

The only thing that has ever bothered me is Who was Mr. Madddens Sensei in the art of Jujutsu and what style was it? Because as you know we all have talked to someone whos says they had studied Karate Kung Fu or Jujutsu But never say what Ryu ha.

Good day


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## twendkata71

*Oringinally Soke Madden studied Jujitsu from his father when he was young. His father was in the merchant marines before WWII. I am not sure what the ryuha was originally. Over the years he trained with several other masters. He has been to Japan many many times for training in the 50's,60's and early 70's. You would actually have to ask him. I know our karate style comes from Koei kan karate do. I have seen most of his certificates in his office. Many of them are from Japan.  I do know that he was affiliated with the IJJF for a while. But, I am not sure about now.  All I do know is that I have had him demonstrate Jujitsu waza on me and they were very effective.*






			
				shiro said:
			
		

> The only thing that has ever bothered me is Who was Mr. Madddens Sensei in the art of Jujutsu and what style was it? Because as you know we all have talked to someone whos says they had studied Karate Kung Fu or Jujutsu But never say what Ryu ha.
> 
> Good day


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## shiro

I thought he had studied judo under his father. 
When the seiei jujitsu(Jujutsu) was started i never heard anyone say where the Jujutsu was comming from. Mr. Madden did talk alot about Phil Porter but i don't remember him comming over to the School.
I think it is nice to know where your art came from and who.

good day


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## twendkata71

*Master Porter is the one that promoted Soke Madden to 6th dan in Judo. If memory serves me right. We were sort of affiliated with the USJA for a while. I think some of our people are still affiliated the the USJA. Master Porter is no longer with the USJA. Soke Madden told me that his father taught him judo when he was young. It may have been a combination of the two.  Shihan Heather Madden was the one that went a bit further and trained to black belt in Jujitsu,Judo,karate and Aikido. ** Again. If you would like to know what ryuha Soke Madden developed our Jujitsu from,you would have to ask him personally. Soke Madden has been exposed to so many martial arts over the years. Always working to develop our people to their highest potential.*


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## twendkata71

*Correction. Soke Madden told me that his father taught him Jujitsu.  He did not mention Judo.  Perhaps his father taught him a combination of the two. *


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## twendkata71

*Frankly, I am at the point now,after 25 years of being in the martial arts and being involved with the Ko Sutemi Seiei kan. That I really do not care where our martial arts come from (Jujitsu,Kung fu,karate,etc.) if it is effective and works,then it is valid. I have trained in other styles of karate(matsubayashi shorin ryu,Shotokan,Goju ryu,kempo, and shito ryu) I always came back to the Seiei kan because I could learn all of the same things from our people. We have so many people from different styles that I can learn from all of them. And yes I do know the history of our karate,and the Kung fu that is now taught within the organization. As a amatuer martial arts historian,I have done the research and I do like learning the history of different styles,kata,etc.  *
*All that really matters in a martial art is that it works for you.  Now if you are looking for acceptance from some ultra traditional organization or the Japanese,then where your style comes from or what style you study may be important. Whether or not your style is legit or not will come out when you are out on the deck demonstrating.  A martial art is only as effective as the person who is performing it and the amount of time that person puts into their training.  *


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## shiro

Case in point Seiei Shaolin do instructor Mr. Day says he founded the system of Silent Dragon Martial Arts (False) I have talked to him about this and he asured me that the name was no longer in use. But guess what it is still on the web page as if it is some old form of Kung fu. It is real sad when someone makes up stuff to make them selfs look good I have tried again to contact some one from Seiei or silent Dragon but no one has contacted me back We are suppose to be Martial Artist with honor but by the way some people act you would not know it. 
Sorry if this sounds hard but it has upset me some to see some people take advantage of others like that then lie when asked about it.

Back to the point I wish Mr. Madden would list Ryu Ha His Jujutsu comes from just so people have some idea of the history of the art.


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## twendkata71

*I was under the impression that Master Day originally studied his form of kung fu under Grand master The`. Who calls his art Shoalin Do. I am not sure if he is still in Kentucky. Master The` was friends with Soke Madden in the 70,s. If memory serves me right. I am not sure when or why Mr. Day split ties with Master The`.    I am involved with the Kung fu side of Seiei kan. I have not had the time in the last few years to go to camp and study it. I am mainly just a karate,kobudo and Jujitsu person. Even though I have not had that much time to study Jujitsu lately. I do see your point. *


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## shiro

Back in the early to mid ninties we had Mr. Day come and teach us more Shaolin Kung fu(He was my instructors instructor) so anyway we trained with him and made him a nice satin jacket that had a dragon on the back and said Shaolin Kung fu on the back and the name of our School which is called Silent Dragon has been since 1983. It was decided that Mr. Day would use the School name and we would the main school when Mr. Day would move to Flordia He had some cert. made up with our schools name on it. He move and we never heard of him again. A couple of years ago i came across a web page where Mr. Day is aid to be teaching this form of Silent Dragon Style I got his email and he told me that they no longer use our schools name(did not explain why he ever did) and he said that him and my instructor just grew stoped talking(my insrtuctor denies). And there acouple of days ago i see they (Seiei Shaolin do) are still useing it.
I am very dissopointed in Mr. Day (not his students they did not know) I thought he was a man of honor i guess not.
I have tried to get ahold of him again but no one has returned my email.
If anyone questions what i am saying i can show my shodan cert that is dated before any of they Seiei people where around.

Mr. Day did say he trained under Mr. The who is still in Kentuckey( He says I wonder now lie about this maybe lie about that)
Good day


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## twendkata71

*That doesn't sound good. I have meet a few of Mr. Day's students and they seem to be quite good.  I personally do not know him.  *
*Perhaps you should seek out Master The` or one of his senior instructors.     Like I said, I am mostly a karate person.  I know the lineage of my style.   Sadly, even though an instructor might be very good. They will embelish about their training past or the history of their style to make it sound more authentic.  *


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## shiro

I have moved away from tha style when I wanted to start martial arts the art that i wanted to study i could not get to a school at the time so i started in Shaolin Kung fu then Shotokan Karate so I knew the Mr. Maddens org. very well I have never broken off from them but i have not ben active for a while with them.
It sounds like you have a good grasp on the arts you study and try to follow some code. good for you.
Good day


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## TheHeathen

Incidently.. Something that may interest you, TW.. we are getting ready to go BACK to the kata. Sensei Heather has decided that tournament is one thing, and teaching is something else. She wants everyone to know the traditional way to perform all seven of the basics and I believe there are three others.. for a total of 10. Anyone interested will learn the original way to do the kata, from her, and she is currently undergoing tutelage from Soke himself. Once she teaches you the original way, you can work on it, and eventually she will watch to make sure you have it. That way we don't lose that tradition should Soke decide he is stepping down and retiring. Just a thought.. if you are interested, might want to stop in to class a couple times and see what you can see.


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## shiro

You say to keep the tradition do you know what Ryu Ha our Seiei Jujutsu comes Mr. Madden has never mention it at the times i was around. Not that i am trying to say anything i am just wondering. I know sometimes people on this board try to twist what others are saying.
Good Day


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## twendkata71

*Now does that mean that she will be teaching the original versions of the fukyugata,pinan kata,and naihanchi ichi. If so I know those kata the way that Soke taught me.  I study kata inside and out and reverse engineer the kata to see what the bunkai of the kata are.  I will make it a priority to get down to the dojo and check out what Shihan Heather Madden is teaching. I like the idea of going back to the traditional method.  Soke Madden also taught me a version of Bassai dai that I do not see anywere else.  *
*By the way, I don't see Soke Madden retiring. But, he is in his 70,s now. And all of that traveling and teaching worldwide has to catch up with you sometime.  Hanshi Annarino and Hanshi Summers are about the same age. They do not seem to be slowing down either. *


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## twendkata71

*Also, there were orignally three of the naihanchi on Okinawa. I teach all three of those kata.  In Seiei kan we mainly teach the one Naihanchi.  I have studied the Shorin ryu,shotokan, shitoryu and seieikan versions of the Pinan/Heian kata. The Shorin ryu version is the one that is the most different.   As far as advanced kata goes. There are so many different variations in kata that it is hard to keep up.  The WKF every so often changed the accepted versions of kata,depending on who is the head of the technical committee. I have seen  Seipai change several times. Back in the early ninties it was the Hayashi ha shito ryu version that was mostly used in international competition. Now it is  the Goju ryu version. Same thing with Bassai dai. Before is was the Shotokan version, now it is the Shito ryu version.  The history of kata gets confusing,because many of the kata are so old that no one knows who created it or when. Some of the original versions of the kata came from China. Some where created on Okinawa and many today were modified when they were brought to Japan by the Okinawan that taught them, Like Funakoshi. He changed all of the kata  he taught for the Japanese. *
*Anyway from what I remember that Soke Madden taught me our kata lineage came from the original Koei kan curriculum,of which our style comes from.  *
*Now, Since Soke Madden split from the Koei kan a long time ago I am not sure what changes in the Koei kan curriculum were made after. *
*Koei kan does not teach the fukyugataI &II. I think that Soke added them for the purpose of making it easier for people to learn. *
*The Koei kan curriculum is :*
*Pinan I-V, Naihanchi I-III,chinto,passai dai and sho,kushanku dai & sho,shihokushanku, chibanna kushanku, gojushiho, sanchin,seisan,sanseiru,seipai,suparinpei and two chinese kata*
*(jaken ichiro,and renchiken ichiro.) which I have never seen.*
*Other kata were added to our Seiei kan curriculum because we have so many different stylist that have joined the organization over the years. Soke Madden has not restricted what kata we teach for belt tests. He did say that the basic kata he wanted taught the same.  So, All of the Pinan kata need to be taught the same way.  I am not sure if the people from other styles of karate that are part of the organization actually test at our belt tests. I have seen some of our Shotokan members at our tests. But, they perform the Heian versions of the kata. I have not seen any of our Kenpo members at our belt tests. So, I am assuming that members from others styles mainly do their own testing.  * That is unless they want to be ranked in Seiei kan, then I think that they have to test with Soke Madden.


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## twendkata71

*So, I have not heard any more from Mr. Williams since I post the history of the Seiei kan system.  I see where Mr. Williams is a member of the Motobu ha Shito ryu group.  I had a lot of respect for Master Kuniba.  His teacher Master Kokuba broke ties with Mabuni Kenwa (founder of Shito ryu) and basically started his own version of Shito ryu.  How is that different from Seiei kan's founder Don Madden breaking away from Onishi Eizo(Koei kan founder), and starting his own system. It didn't start out that way.  Soke Madden started out originally just calling it Ko Sutemi dojo karate. The Seiei kan name came about to distinguish our curriculum from other karate styles and systems.  Also, Soke Madden did not ask others to promote him to 9th and eventually 10th dan. The ceremonial promotion by the high dan members of the Ko Sutemi Seiei kan was a recognition  ceremony.  He also never asks anyone to call him Soke. He actually would rather you call him by his name. But, out of respect we call him either Soke or sensei.  He was recognized by the martial arts community for over 50 years of dedicated service,training and contributions to the martial arts on a global scale. The Nippon Butokukai does the same thing in Japan. It is nothing new.  But, when American organizations do this for Americans that have devoted their entire life to the development and promotion of martial arts. They are somehow not as legit. *
*This sounds like a form of racism of sorts. Does it not? *
*A few startling things that have happened in Traditional karate in Okinawa and Japan. *
*Kyan Chotoku promoted Shimabuku Eizo to 10th dan when he was only 35 years old. This is very young. (if that is done here in the US it is considered sacrelege in the karate community.).*
*Toyama Kanken promoted several promonent Japanese masters to 10 th dan and they were not even students of his.*
*Funakoshi Gichin changed all of the traditional kata that he taught when he went to Japan to promote karate do. Ohtsuka of Wado ryu started his own style after only a few years of training with Funakoshi. Oyama did the same thing with Kyokushinkai. There are so many teachers in Japan that have broken away from their sensei and started their own styles. But, I don't hear too many people in the traditional community complaining about them. And yes there have been Japanese masters that promoted themselves to 9th and 10th dans. Many have had the senior members of their orgainzation do it for them. But, if an non Japanese or Okinawan does it,it is bad, or that person is not deserving of it. *
*So, yes Ko Sutemi Seiei kan is just as legitamate as other styles,even though it was not founded in Japan or Okinawa.*


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## twendkata71

*I must retract what I stated about Master Kobuba. He was not a student of Mabuni. He was a student of Motobu.  Perhaps that name was later added because Master Kuniba studied Shito ryu. I do apologize. I was off on my research. I would not want to post misleading or false information.  I had misread the information. *






			
				twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *So, I have not heard any more from Mr. Williams since I post the history of the Seiei kan system. I see where Mr. Williams is a member of the Motobu ha Shito ryu group. I had a lot of respect for Master Kuniba. His teacher Master Kokuba broke ties with Mabuni Kenwa (founder of Shito ryu) and basically started his own version of Shito ryu. How is that different from Seiei kan's founder Don Madden breaking away from Onishi Eizo(Koei kan founder), and starting his own system. It didn't start out that way. Soke Madden started out originally just calling it Ko Sutemi dojo karate. The Seiei kan name came about to distinguish our curriculum from other karate styles and systems. Also, Soke Madden did not ask others to promote him to 9th and eventually 10th dan. The ceremonial promotion by the high dan members of the Ko Sutemi Seiei kan was a recognition ceremony. He also never asks anyone to call him Soke. He actually would rather you call him by his name. But, out of respect we call him either Soke or sensei. He was recognized by the martial arts community for over 50 years of dedicated service,training and contributions to the martial arts on a global scale. The Nippon Butokukai does the same thing in Japan. It is nothing new. But, when American organizations do this for Americans that have devoted their entire life to the development and promotion of martial arts. They are somehow not as legit. *
> *This sounds like a form of racism of sorts. Does it not? *
> *A few startling things that have happened in Traditional karate in Okinawa and Japan. *
> *Kyan Chotoku promoted Shimabuku Eizo to 10th dan when he was only 35 years old. This is very young. (if that is done here in the US it is considered sacrelege in the karate community.).*
> *Toyama Kanken promoted several promonent Japanese masters to 10 th dan and they were not even students of his.*
> *Funakoshi Gichin changed all of the traditional kata that he taught when he went to Japan to promote karate do. Ohtsuka of Wado ryu started his own style after only a few years of training with Funakoshi. Oyama did the same thing with Kyokushinkai. There are so many teachers in Japan that have broken away from their sensei and started their own styles. But, I don't hear too many people in the traditional community complaining about them. And yes there have been Japanese masters that promoted themselves to 9th and 10th dans. Many have had the senior members of their orgainzation do it for them. But, if an non Japanese or Okinawan does it,it is bad, or that person is not deserving of it. *
> *So, yes Ko Sutemi Seiei kan is just as legitamate as other styles,even though it was not founded in Japan or Okinawa.*


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## twendkata71

*I guess  that Mr. Williams has no more to say about Seiei kan.*
*I have been thinking a lot about what he stated about Japanese/or Okinawan styles being more legitimate. About criticizing other in the US for starting their own style, so I did some digging.*
*The whole idea of karate styles came when karate was introduced to Japan and they wanted a way to classify the different methods of the original Te. The Masters of that time Mabuni,Funakoshi, Motobu, were told they had to come up with a name for their style.*
*Mabuni studied two different styles Naha te( From Hiagoanna) and Shuri te ( From Itosu), created Shito ryu. He was also well know as a kata collector. Something Seiei kan people have been criticized for.*
*Funakoshi studied two different styles  Naha te(Shorei) from Azato and Shuri te(Shorin) from Itosu, created the Shotokan, which he didn't name and really didn't like the idea of calling what he taught anything other than Japanese Karate.  Ohtsuka was a Jujitsu master, started training with Funakoshi for less that 10 years I believe and broke away and started Wado ryu karate do.*
*Now Miyagi did mainly study one style under Hiagoanna,except when he went to China with Hiagoanna. Then with the permission of his teacher started his own style ,Goju ryu. This has happened all over Japan and on Okinawa over the last 60 years of karate. *
*I realize there are a lot of phony karate people out there supposedly starting their own "style" or "system" of karate or Martial art, But, that is also part of the Martial arts tradition. Shu Ha ri( Shu- beginning accepting what you are taught), Ha( advancing and becoming creative in your efforts, Ri ( separation - creating your own path.) This has been a part of Japanese martial arts for hundreds of years.  Now, I am not saying that everyone should run out and start their own style. It does take several decades to develop that level of skill and research. Just that there is a level that you can reach where you develop beyond what your sensei has taught you. And it should be the hope of a good sensei that a student will go beyond what they have done and carry their martial art to a higher level.*
*And in reality since everyone's body is different, you have to do your karate your way. You can immitate others, but usually you will not do it exactly as the other person.  *
*And if you want to spend the rest of your life studying the same style, then that is fine. You can spend years just studying one kata and you will learn new things everytime you practice it. I was practicing Pinan Shodan the other day and discover something new within a technique and I have been practicing that kata for 25 years.*
*I personally try to show respect to all martial artist. Weither they are traditional or ecclectic. Japanese,Okinawan,Chinese,American,etc. I thought that was one of the things that karate do is really about. Blindly following tradition can cause problems as well. And if you really look into it. Most of the great masters didn't just blindly follow and stay with the same methods of training their whole life either!*


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## Nunya

twendkata71 said:


> More information for all interested.
> Ko sutemi seiei kan uses the Pinan 1-5 kata, names instead of the Heian names because the style the Seiei kan comes from Koei kan used the Pinan names.  We have members from many different styles of karate, including Shorin ryu, Shoto kan, Goju ryu, Uechi ryu, Isshin ryu, Taekwondo as well as many eclectic systems. Soke Madden has incouraged us to learn from all styles of martial arts. That way we can be more well rounded as martial artists as welll as being leaders in the martial arts community. The involvement of so many styles in the organization also gives us a hugh catalog of kata and training methods to choose from.
> Soke Maddens daughter Shihan Heather Madden teaches Jujitsu and Aikido at his dojo, as welll as karate classes when Soke is not there.
> Some other great master instructors in our organization are:
> George Annarino 9th dan, Lynn Summers 9th dan, Brent Bias 8th dan, Paul Snider 6th dan, Traylon Smith 7th dan. Jim Grubb(not sure about his rank), Jim Cottrell 7th dan, Larry Zahand 7th dan, Chris Nicholas 7th dan. There are several more,but many names I cannot remember.


Paul Snider that now calls himself a Grand Master and struts around in his 3 inch wide belt and a Gi that looks like it came out of the trash with the patches falling off is nothing but a drunk and liar.  His wife That calls herself a 7th degree Master is no better with her funky colored hair and a beer in one hand with a cigarette in the other.  Neither of them have the knowledge that they should have at the ranks they claim to have because if they did then they would know that there aren't cartwheels in shotokan forms.  Just because they both claim to have black belts does not make them a black belt.  GM Paul Snider was asked to show a weapons kate and he couldn't do it so that told me that he has no know.ledge, they are in the Martial Arts for money only, they use people and he claims to have 50 black belts under him but rest assured that he certainly wasn't the one that trained them and shared the Martial Arts Knowledge with them he tries to take black belts from other Masters and once he does tried to lock them in for all he can get and Makes them pay him for a signed certificate and Membership into his organization WVFAA.  How in good faith can he sign his name to a rank certificate when he has never worked with the student or better yet doesn't even know them?  He is a FRAUD plain and simple and anyone that believes a word that comes out of his mouth is a fool.  If you have any dealings with him I suggest that you carry a jar of vaseline with you because you are going to need it.


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## pgsmith

Two things for you to consider here Nunya ...
  1) You're ranting a reply to a 10 year old post. That is digging up a dead horse in order to beat it some more.
  2) Why should anyone believe a word that you've typed? You didn't bother to introduce yourself, you gave no background on why anyone should believe your words are anything other than a disaffected student trying to get back for a perceived snub.

  I'm not saying that your words may not be perfectly valid, since I don't know anyone involved in the original thread (don't care to either). However, you've given me no reason to believe your rant either. Making statements is as simple as typing them up. Reasoning and evidence takes a bit more effort, and would give your words a lot more meaning.


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## TimoS

twendkata71 said:


> Funakoshi studied two different styles  Naha te(Shorei) from Azato and Shuri te(Shorin) from Itosu,


Azato was actually a senior student of Bushi Matsumura, so if you wish to use the misleading names of Shuri-, Tomari- and Nahate, Azato was also representing Shurite

Edit: oops, just realized this was an ancient thread


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## Grenadier

*Admin's Note:*

This thread is now closed.  If you wish to discuss this system in a civil manner, please start a new thread.


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