# Adoption?



## Carol (Mar 17, 2010)

I'm going to ask a blunt question.  I'm not so much looking for right or wrong answers, but I'm more interested in hearing people's perspectives, regardless of their views.  Why don't more people adopt?  

A year or two ago, my sister surprised me with the news that she and her husband have decided to adopt children...and a sibling unit at that.  My biological niece and nephew are young, but already out on their own in the world.

Last fall, four precious souls joined the family.  State laws say my sis and bro-in-law had to become a foster parents first to bring them home, then the adoption can be finalized some months later.  

I received a muffled message from my sister (I suspect she may have been on the receiving end of a pillow fight at the time) indicating ... I think ... that the adoption has been finalized.  This is news that we were all expecting.  I am thrilled, they are thrilled, the kids are thrilled.

Why don't more people adopt children that need parents?


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## dancingalone (Mar 17, 2010)

Good question.  It's usually more of an option for infertile or gay couples who can't have children.

Some of the explanation has to be at least biological in origin.  Do you think parents might identify with and love their children more precisely because they look like themselves?  It is a sad fact that minority children have lower adoption rates in the United States.

Thoughts?


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## Stac3y (Mar 17, 2010)

There are lots of different reasons. Personally, I won't adopt because I've already got 2 kids of my own and can't handle any more financially or emotionally.

My father and stepmother tried to adopt, but had problems because he was almost 20 years older than her--they were told that the age difference, and his age, made them a poor risk. After striking out in the U.S., they attempted to adopt an infant from China. Due to their ages (she was younger than optimal and he was older), they were told they could only adopt a child with disabilities, and they weren't prepared to deal with that. They were eventually able to have a child of their own, though they had extreme difficulty doing so. 

They could have much more easily adopted a child who was older, or a child with a disability, but they didn't want to do that. They wanted what most adoptive parents want: a healthy infant of their own ethnicity. While there are a lot of kids out there who need parents, there aren't a lot of healthy infants of the parents' own ethnicity available, unless you can afford an expensive private adoption. 

Most people don't want to take on a child who already has problems due to neglect or abuse--they want a blank slate; a BABY they can bond with. Many people don't want the added difficulty or expense of rearing a child with a disability, or just don't know how. 

I'm sure there are lots of other reasons, but those are some I've encountered firsthand.


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## Stac3y (Mar 17, 2010)

Oh, I forgot to add that my dad and stepmom were turned down by several church adoption services for being the "wrong" religion.


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## Carol (Mar 17, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Good question. It's usually more of an option for infertile or gay couples who can't have children.
> 
> Some of the explanation has to be at least biological in origin. Do you think parents might identify with and love their children more precisely because they look like themselves? It is a sad fact that minority children have lower adoption rates in the United States.
> 
> Thoughts?


 
I think it is certainly possible. The adoption rate for minority children, esp. minority boys...is rather depressing. 

I know my when my sister and bro-in-law went looking, they said they were looking for kids that were a bit harder to place. They were willing to consider a child of a different race, or a child with difficulties. Older kids are also difficult ot adopt. 

My 6 year old niece is an absolute princess. She is sincere, loving little girl. My sister had told me that her contacts had said there were several familes that wanted to adopt her, but just her. They had little interest in adopting her 3 older brothers (oldest is 13). They had already been split up in to 4 different foster homes and were hoping upon hope to be adopted together.


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## dancingalone (Mar 17, 2010)

Carol said:


> I think it is certainly possible. The adoption rate for minority children, esp. minority boys...is rather depressing.



I never wanted to have children really.  But when I saw our child quicken in my wife, I felt an instant connection.  This child is ours.  He is part of her and me - us.  The moment he was born I marveled over his minute perfection, and my heart still melts every time he calls me 'Daddy'.

As rational as we are, we're still creatures frequently driven by our biology.  Would I love another child as much who does not carry my DNA, who is not of my blood?  If I am honest, I would have to say perhaps not.


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## Carol (Mar 17, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I never wanted to have children really. But when I saw our child quicken in my wife, I felt an instant connection. This child is ours. He is part of her and me - us. The moment he was born I marveled over his minute perfection, and my heart still melts every time he calls me 'Daddy'.
> 
> As rational as we are, we're still creatures frequently driven by our biology. Would I love another child as much who does not carry my DNA, who is not of my blood? If I am honest, I would have to say perhaps not.


 
That's some great input!  And having not really had a desire to become a parent myself, that is not something that I have genuinely expereinced.  

My sister's first two children (now 21 and 19) were biological, and had her childbirth with her second not gone horribly wrong, she probably would have had more, and not chosen to adopt later in life as she has.


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## blindsage (Mar 17, 2010)

My wife and I would like to adopt one day, but we are not financially secure enough at this point, we both want to go back to school soon, and we'd like to have at least one biological child first.  But when we do, neither race or gender are an issue to us, and we have even talked about intentionally adopting older children specifically because of the difficulties they have in being placed.  If we can afford it, I would really like to be able to adopt a sibling unit.


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## Nomad (Mar 17, 2010)

I've considered it, and frankly, the amount of red-tape involved is somewhat daunting, even though it was obviously put in place as a way to find the best homes possible for the children.

There is also the stigma that comes with adopting an older child; what have they been through, and what effect will that (continue to) have on them?  How would he/she integrate with our current family?  Would adopting an older child put our kids at more risk of abuse or trauma or otherwise disrupt the occasionally tenuous harmony in our house?

I don't really know the answer to these questions; they're just a few of the things that have gone through my head when I've thought about it.  

I'll let you know if I come to a decision... and yes, I do also understand that not coming to a decision is, if effect, a decision in itself.


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## KELLYG (Mar 17, 2010)

Other than the examples that have been listed above. Some folks just do not want to have children.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 17, 2010)

I am going to be equally blunt: unless you have ever adopted, you have no idea. In that regard, it is not much different from having kids. Full disclosure: I have 2 adoptive sisters that are younger than me. For obvious reason I am not going to divulge details. PM me if you have specific question about my post.

If my wife and I would have been unable to get kids of our own, adoption might have been an option. However, would only want to adopt a baby. I don't care about the color of skin or origin. My sisters are from india and I have never known any different than that different skin colors were normal.

The reason I would only adopt a baby is that it is a real blank slate. A child that has been abandoned by his or her parents will likely never trust another parent again. Building a foundation of mutual trust and love is impossible. Yes, I know that you can rationalize all you want, but studies have shown that this condition happens in a large percentage of all kids who were abandoned by their parents.

In a normal parent relationship, you can expect kids to listen to their parents and do what they say based on trust and love. Kids that are incapable of establishing this trust relationship will never be compelled to really listen to their parents or to actually do things out of love. That simply doesn't happen.

Knowing what I know, and with significant chance of getting that problem if the kids fully understands the ultimate betrayal by its own parents, I would never ever adopt a child that is not a baby. This sort of thing is capable of ruining marriages and relationships, if the kid tries to play one parent against the other. Note that the problem is fairly specific: kids that lost the love of their parents due to death or other non voluntary circumstances can learn to love again. Kids that were betrayed and know it ... the odds are not good.

I realize these words are harsh. But I do not look through rose tinted glasses. I know what I am talking about and the problem I've described is real.

Another thing to keep in mind: Never ever adopt a kid that is older than any of the kids you already have (adoptive or natural). Age establishes a pecking order. The oldest kid is the first to go out, to get a drivers license, etc. With each kid you get (in a normal fashion) a sort of hierarchy is established. The whole social structure is used to the newest kids being the youngest. Suddenly injecting someone in the middle (or worse: on top) has significant chances of disrupting the entire unspoken hierarchy, and causing long lived resentment. This might seem silly an unfair, but in the real world this is a problem that should not be underestimated.

EDIt:
I do have a foster kid though, through http://www.sos-childrensvillages.org/pages/default.aspx
This way my foster daughter can grow up and get an education in her home country and hopefully build a better life for herself.


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## girlbug2 (Mar 17, 2010)

If it were financially possible for us to afford another child, I would adopt. But, only a child younger than our biological kids and preferably a baby. Race would not be a big issue with me, although I will not lie, it would make things considerably easier all around if the child were the same race as we. We did at one point briefly consider adopting a baby girl from China, but the expenses for that kind of adoption really add up.


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## Deaf Smith (Mar 17, 2010)

> Why don't more people adopt children that need parents?


 
Carol,

Cause life is too easy now. You don't respect life when it's so easy to just do your own thing. Way to many people want their pleasure now, right now, and pay later (if ever) and that 'meism' is a great part of the problem.

Add to that the loss of respect for life (Abortion, no-fault child abandonment, broken homes, etc...) and well, why go through the effort? And that is the attitude.

Sometimes I think we need a good depression or world war to bring back the 'greatest generation'. We seem to have lost our way.

Deaf


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## Tames D (Mar 17, 2010)

I think the whole adoption process is what turns alot of people off from adopting. It's a major legal process that becomes very expensive. Why bother, especially if you can't get the "type" of adoptive child you want? 

My wife and I went into our marriage with the agreement that we would never have children (we are able to). We were into our careers, and our lifestyles were something that didn't allow for children. We liked it that way. No restrictions. 

Well, suddenly a girl we knew (very,very young) got pregnant and the father (also very,very young) bailed on her. She had no way of supporting her new baby and her single mother couldn't offer any help. 

To make a long story short, we took that boy in and adopted him. A few months later the girl got pregnant again by another dude. He bailed too. Guess what, we brought home a brother for our son. 

These guys are my sons. No one can tell me their not. They are 9 and 10 years old now. I forget that they were adopted until the subject comes up. They just happen to be white like my wife and me. If they were any other color I wouldn't care. My wife is now a stay home mom taking care of these little guys. My 9 year old is autistic. I wouldn't change a thing if I had to do it all over again. Unconditional love.

I understand those that don't want to go through this process. But I think it would be more rewarding than they realize.


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## grydth (Mar 17, 2010)

Carol, after decades of life experience, I still have no idea why people act as they do. Sometimes I read things and wonder if I'm even in the same species with these individuals... I think some look at it as they would jury duty - - - they'll whine constantly about how bad things are, then dodge any action or responsibility every chance they get.

We have a "Brady Bunch", there's six of us.... my wife and her 2 boys from her prior marriage and myself and my 2 girls. While it can be challenging correcting "the other one's child", it can also be very rewarding. I think all 4 of the kids are great, with real chances to have good lives. I'm glad I got to talk the boys through some things, and delighted to have my wife as a mentor and role model for the girls.

Much of an effort - and it is a huge and sometimes difficult one - as it has been, I have to say parenting has been about as rewarding and worthwhile a thing as I've ever done.


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## Aikicomp (Mar 18, 2010)

Tames D said:


> I think the whole adoption process is what turns alot of people off from adopting. It's a major legal process that becomes very expensive. Why bother, especially if you can't get the "type" of adoptive child you want?
> 
> My wife and I went into our marriage with the agreement that we would never have children (we are able to). We were into our careers, and our lifestyles were something that didn't allow for children. We liked it that way. No restrictions.
> 
> ...


 
Well done and well said. Being adopted myself, I can relate to your story and luckily my adoptive parents were of the same mind you are. 

Your children.......are your children......period. Whether they are biological or adopted you run the same crapshoot. You teach, love, care and dicipline them as best you know how and hope and pray it takes root. 

Then you do the hardest thing a parent can do.......


let go.


 Michael


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## Aikicomp (Mar 18, 2010)

Carol,

IMO, it takes special kind of people to want to adopt in the first place (for all the reasons stated above) 

I think it is due to that some people are just not up to the task.
I was blessed that my adoptive parents were, because without them my life wouls have been very, very different....and not for the better.

I also think one more reason that has not been mentioned is that some adoptive parents are scared to death that when their kids are old enough to understand what "adopted means" they will want to find their biological parent(s) as I did. 

During my search for my biological parents, I spent many hours convincing my adoptive parents that if I found my bio's........

THEY WERE MY PARENTS NO MATTER WHAT and that would NEVER EVER change. THEY loved and cared for me, THEY made me feel safe when I was scared, THEY fixed my boo boo's when I got them, ect. 

That brings a whole new aspect to the table for people contemplating to adopt or not. 

Michael


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 18, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> Carol,
> 
> Cause life is too easy now. You don't respect life when it's so easy to just do your own thing. Way to many people want their pleasure now, right now, and pay later (if ever) and that 'meism' is a great part of the problem.
> 
> ...



Do you have any personal experience with adoption or is this a general '_people are lazy nowadays_' rant that could be posted in half a dozen different topics?


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## Carol (Mar 18, 2010)

I actually strongly disagree with Deaf's comment. My sister lives in a part of the southern US that many people refer to as the "Bible Belt". The kids she adopted were from a different Bible Belt state. Many people down there feel as Deaf does with regards to abortion, etc, yet abortion in that region seems (just from my own unofficial percpetions) to be no more plentiful than it is here in in the Northeast. I remember going to the open house at their schools, and the 6 year old grabbed my hand and ran with me in to her classroom. She wanted me to sit down and read a book to her (which I did). When I finally had a chance to meet her teacher, she said with a smile "Who is this?" She smilled and said "Aunt Carol!!" I said "Hi, I'm her mom's sister Carol" She introduced herself and whispered in my ear "She is soooo lucky, she and her brothers are soooo lucky," and started shaking her head slightly as if she couldn't picture anyone adopting 4 siblings. (Which was generally the response whenever we meet someone that knows their back story). The kids feel lucky too, they stick very close together and they are very protective of one another.  We are just as lucky to have them in our lives.

However, one of the factors in my mind when I posted the topic how having biological children seems to be something that is more prized in the tenets of religion. The Roman Catholic church and some minor Prostestant sects forbid the use of Birth control (although I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Catholic under 45 in the US that didn't use some kind of birth control). There are even natalistic sects that emphasize raising a large family. Now, theere are countless Christian sects that support the idea of adoption, and some even help run agencies to support the process. However, the sects seem to be hung up on taking"marry and multiply" as meaning "mary and mulitply biologically"

I have never seen any sect that emphasized adoption. Indeed there are sects whose actions appear to impede the process rather than encourage it. There are somesuch as the Qwiverfulls, and the agency's as Stac3y mentioned that will use faith as reason to deny placement, 

Is adoption for everyone? No clearly not, and adopting 4 is...definitely off the mark. But that is also why I think adoption, for the folks that can make it work, is so special.


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## jks9199 (Mar 18, 2010)

Adoption is not an easy process, emotionally, financially, or practically.  And that's if there are no complicating factors, like special needs or cross-race.  Or issues like some rulings and decisions that have said that the birth parents can revoke their consent for an unforgivably long period...  so that the kid someone's been loving and raising for years can suddenly be yanked away.  It's not easy for the birth parent, either, to let go off their child.

Adoptive parents, as well as the birth parents who recognize that for whatever reason they cannot care for the child properly, deserve to be praised.  Adoption should be more effective encouraged, though I admit that I don't know how it can be done.

One note on birth control -- Carol's oversimplified the Roman Catholic Church's teachings on birth control; only artificial birth control is prohibited.  That includes surgical measures like tubal ligation or vasectomy.  Anything that artificially blocks conception.  Modern Natural Family Planning can be very effective, though it isn't easy and requires self discipline and self control.


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## Carol (Mar 18, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Adoption is not an easy process, emotionally, financially, or practically. And that's if there are no complicating factors, like special needs or cross-race. Or issues like some rulings and decisions that have said that the birth parents can revoke their consent for an unforgivably long period... so that the kid someone's been loving and raising for years can suddenly be yanked away. It's not easy for the birth parent, either, to let go off their child.
> 
> Adoptive parents, as well as the birth parents who recognize that for whatever reason they cannot care for the child properly, deserve to be praised. Adoption should be more effective encouraged, though I admit that I don't know how it can be done.


 
I have some ideas as to how it can be done, but it would take a lot of people pushing for it. I can't picture that happening because adoption is seen by too many folks in the U.S. as an undesirable option.

There is the spritual support. I don't know of any organized religion that will hold up adoption as service to the Lord. But especially in days like now when we see values breaking down and families eroding...isn't giving a child wihtout parents a permanent family one of the most important things one can do? And because not everyone can, or will, that only increases its importance. 

Another element is corporate support. The Canadian company I worked for offerend an adoption benefit...up to (some monetary amount) something like that to defray the legal costs of adoption, I think there may have even been a situation where you could be granted an extra day or two of paid leave to address the scheduled matters regarding the adoption of the child, although that leave would run concurrent with unpaid FMLA. I understand that in the economy, many companies are cutting benefits...but how expensive is agreeing to pay for a benefit that their employees may never use?

I thnk more support could be given to potential adoptive parents to help navigate the legal process...perhaps a way to track online the status of your paperwork, or a network of people that had already adopted in the state that were willing to give an hour or two a week helping potentially adoptive parents.

What about tax incentive for adopting...esp. older children, or tax credits (not deductions) for said legal costs? It costs the goverment money to keep the child in foster care, it could be more cost-effective in the long run to encourage parents to adopt.

There is some support from the U.S. Government, adoption is a qualifying condition for unpaid FMLA, the US DHHS is running PSAs encouraging people that you don't have to be perfect to be a perfect parent.

Unfortunately I think the trouble with helping parents who would at least be willing to consider adoption is more than the costs in the way, it is also the paradigms.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 18, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> One note on birth control -- Carol's oversimplified the Roman Catholic Church's teachings on birth control; only artificial birth control is prohibited.  That includes surgical measures like tubal ligation or vasectomy.  Anything that artificially blocks conception. * Modern Natural Family Planning can be very effective, though it isn't easy and requires self discipline and self control*.



Spoken like someone whose wife's period is regular as clockwork.
Given that both my kids were conceived within a couple of weeks after my wife quitting the pill (i.e. we are very fertile people), and the wildly irregular cycle of my wife, there is NO way, short of abstinence, that we could plan our sex life and a reasonable expectancy of not conceiving.


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## Stac3y (Mar 18, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Spoken like someone whose wife's period is regular as clockwork.
> Given that both my kids were conceived within a couple of weeks after my wife quitting the pill (i.e. we are very fertile people), and the wildly irregular cycle of my wife, there is NO way, short of abstinence, that we could plan our sex life and a reasonable expectancy of not conceiving.


 
Indeed. Women's cycles are not all the same. I conceived my second son after being off birth control pills for approximately 3 days due to a dispute with the insurance company. Fortunately, we were in the throes of planning to stop birth control within the next month or two, anyway. And I was using the "counting method" when I conceived my first son. Apparently, I ovulate irregularly despite menstruating regularly. Now that you all know WAY too much about me....


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## Carol (Mar 18, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> Indeed. Women's cycles are not all the same. I conceived my second son after being off birth control pills for approximately 3 days due to a dispute with the insurance company. Fortunately, we were in the throes of planning to stop birth control within the next month or two, anyway. And I was using the "counting method" when I conceived my first son. Apparently, I ovulate irregularly despite menstruating regularly. Now that you all know WAY too much about me....


 


Bruno@MT said:


> Spoken like someone whose wife's period is regular as clockwork.
> Given that both my kids were conceived within a couple of weeks after my wife quitting the pill (i.e. we are very fertile people), and the wildly irregular cycle of my wife, there is NO way, short of abstinence, that we could plan our sex life and a reasonable expectancy of not conceiving.


 
Or if you were like my former husband and I...um...ummm....modern, effective, natural family planning is the reason why we never had kids. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :lol:


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## Carol (Mar 18, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> In a normal parent relationship, you can expect kids to listen to their parents and do what they say based on trust and love. Kids that are incapable of establishing this trust relationship will never be compelled to really listen to their parents or to actually do things out of love. That simply doesn't happen.
> 
> Knowing what I know, and with significant chance of getting that problem if the kids fully understands the ultimate betrayal by its own parents, I would never ever adopt a child that is not a baby. This sort of thing is capable of ruining marriages and relationships, if the kid tries to play one parent against the other. Note that the problem is fairly specific: kids that lost the love of their parents due to death or other non voluntary circumstances can learn to love again. Kids that were betrayed and know it ... the odds are not good.


 
Bruno I love your bluntness. And props to you for helping the young girl in Haiti, too.   

Thank you so much for bringing this up and sharing your experiences. You are touching on some very, very, very important points that I think are worth repeating for everyone that either has kids, or plays some kind of positive role in how they are raised.

IMO the worst thing for a child is to be abandoned by their parents. And many, many, many kids in the U.S. have been partly abandoned by one of their parents. This is particularly problematic for American boys whose father wasn't in the picture. Boys who suffer the death of their father typically do not suffer the same issues. 

A dear friend of mine is going through a lot of trouble with her 12 year old son. He got in to trouble at school as a direct result of unfavorable communication wiith his father....who doesn't act like he cares for the boy. He's skipped out on playing his child support, been stripped of nearly all his visitaton rights, save holidays, and has since married a different woman with kids on her own. So when the boy goes for a holiday visit, what does he see? He sees his father living happilly living his life and carrying for someone elses kids, while not taking the barest minimum needed to support his own. Ouch. Or as he said when he was 10, "It hurts so bad...right here" (and placed his fists over his heart).

I think an advantage that ours have is timing. My sister had both of her kids when she was in her mid 20s, and both built a life for themselves that lead to each of them moving out permanently out permanently at a very young age (17). My sister and her husband can now dedicate all of their personal attention to the new kids. Many parents do not have that luxury.

The new kids were betrayed once (by their biological parents). The 13 year old in particular is acutely aware of what has gone on with the family. However, my sister made it possible so they did not have to be betrayed again (by the state) by permanently breaking up the siblings.

On one of my visits, the kids and I cleared the table after dinner. I grabbed a sponge and started to wash the dishes. The 12 year old jumped in...I told him not to worry. He said "Guests aren't supposed to work." I said...well...its a little different when guests are family. He kind of gave me this look like he wasn't sure what to do. The other two boys were absorbed in a book in the living room.

I then said "You know what else family does? Cover each other's butts. How about a deal. I do the dishes while you go grab a book and keep your brothers company." He kinda whispered "You sure?" I nodded. "Yes. Go." He grinned and went over to the living room, and picked up a book himself.

So far so good...since August. We'll see what lies ahead in the future. Is that the answer to all that is wrong....no.

But we may have lucked out with some damn good kids.


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## Blade96 (Mar 18, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> Carol,
> 
> Cause life is too easy now. You don't respect life when it's so easy to just do your own thing. Way to many people want their pleasure now, right now, and pay later (if ever) and that 'meism' is a great part of the problem.
> 
> ...



I'm pro choice. So is my family. My best friend had an abortion. 

We do not EVER have a disrespect for life. If anything planning your family carefully shows a respect for life, not the opposite.

and btw one of my friends is adopted, and she knows everything. Why, when, how, what where, who, etc. She of course hates her natural biological father for abandoning her and not paying her any attention (she is almost 22 and he still treat her like dirt)

I agree with telling adopted kids about everything. It almost seems like people are saying they want babies - people who dont know anything - so they can hide the past, THEIR past which should belong to them - and keep secrets from them. Yes it may be more difficult to gain their trust with an older kid but I think keeping things from them is as bad. My adopted friend is glad her past is hers, and she knows everything and nothing was hidden from her.

Some of you speak of getting trust when adopting a baby that you might not get from an older child. Then speak of hiding the truth because they are  babies and they 'wont know' so you think you'll get trust? What kind of trust do you think you will get if they do find out you've been lying and deceiful and hiding stuff from them?

That and no offense but whoever said natural family planning - also known as the rhythm method....can be done if you have careful dicipline...doesnt know diddly squat. Too much religious doctrine maybe? and not enough biology? A woman's ovaries can release an egg at any time - even while they are on a period.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 18, 2010)

KELLYG said:


> Other than the examples that have been listed above. Some folks just do not want to have children.


 
And those that do, generally go about it the traditional way.


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## Tames D (Mar 18, 2010)

Aikicomp said:


> Well done and well said. Being adopted myself, I can relate to your story and luckily my adoptive parents were of the same mind you are.
> 
> Your children.......are your children......period. Whether they are biological or adopted you run the same crapshoot. You teach, love, care and dicipline them as best you know how and hope and pray it takes root.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not looking forward to the famous words "you can't tell me what to do, your not my real dad". And to be honest, I don't know how I will respond to that. I know it will break my heart.


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## Carol (Mar 18, 2010)

Tames D said:


> I'm not looking forward to the famous words "you can't tell me what to do, your not my real dad". And to be honest, I don't know how I will respond to that. I know it will break my heart.


 
A guy I used to work with married a lady with a teenage daughter.  The father...existed, but was largely not in the picture.  So when the teen strated up with the "You're not my real father" bit once or twice, he let it go once or twice, he let it go.  When she did it again, he just said "I'm the closest thing to one that you've got."

She cooled down after that.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 19, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> Oh, I forgot to add that my dad and stepmom were turned down by several church adoption services for being the "wrong" religion.


 
:disgust: There is no such thing as a right religion.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 19, 2010)

Honestly Carol, my kids are older, and I dont want anymore. I want to travel extensively and finally focus hard on career. I would have wanted more children, but I just couldnt have afforded it financially. If it ever becomes necessary I would sacrifice everything to look after my nieces and nephews, without question. 

You should only be a parent when you are willing to contribute the time necessary to raising a healthy child in a loving home.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 19, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> Carol,
> 
> Cause life is too easy now. You don't respect life when it's so easy to just do your own thing. Way to many people want their pleasure now, right now, and pay later (if ever) and that 'meism' is a great part of the problem.
> 
> ...


 
Bull.

Please don&#8217;t look at the past through rose coloured glasses, the good ol days weren&#8217;t always good. 

You&#8217;re right let&#8217;s push women&#8217;s issues back 80 years, lets push spousal abuse into the dark again, lets let women have back alley abortions, lets put the coloured folk back into the back of the bus, lets not let people vote because of their ethnicity, lets listen to the priests and nuns obediently and let our children get beaten and raped, lets get rid of the social safety net and let people starve and succumb to disease, lets invade countries and topple regimes because we don&#8217;t like how they treat American businesses, lets have cops and teachers beat the **** out of people for little or no reason. 

Do you want me to go on?????


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## girlbug2 (Mar 19, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Some of you speak of getting trust when adopting a baby that you might not get from an older child. Then speak of hiding the truth because they are babies and they 'wont know' so you think you'll get trust? What kind of trust do you think you will get if they do find out you've been lying and deceiful and hiding stuff from them?
> 
> .


 
I think, Blade, that the post you are referring to isn't about hiding the truth from babies because they 'won't know'. It's an expression of concern that an older child will bear psychological wounds from being aware as an older child that they were betrayed/abandoned by their biological parents--which may result in their never being able to trust parent figures fully again. Whereas, babies are the "blank slates" that don't come with these issues. They may find out lwhen they are older what it means that they were adopted, but their personalities can be fully formed without the mistrust; as far as they are concerned, the only Mom or Dad they ever knew has always stood by them.


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## Blade96 (Mar 19, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> :disgust: There is no such thing as a right religion.



I thanked this post but I suppose some religions are 'right' for certain people. But they are most definitely not for everybody.

(like shotokan is right for me, but not for you, maybe.)


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## AlanE (Mar 19, 2010)

There's no question my personality came from my adopted parents - good parents in so many ways.  Trouble still can set in, as in every family.  I was abandoned (not the time to explain) more than once, then while being abandoned, an accident occurred and I lost my parents entirely!  So what part of their personality can I distance myself from and what part to keep?  
You might say being adopted helped some, unlike children of a parent who committed a crime or a suicide.  They're connected in genes and know it.  They feel abandoned, too.
Gosh, I think Carol started it or Bruno, but the abandoned thing wreaks havoc all over.  As much as I dealt with things, the creeping abandonment never stops gnawing at me.  
"Don't leave me" might be imprinted on my subconscious.  Is it on everyone's?


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 19, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I thanked this post but I suppose some religions are 'right' for certain people. But they are most definitely not for everybody.
> 
> (like shotokan is right for me, but not for you, maybe.)


 
Yeah, but Jacklyn, your karate has never told you to kill people, rape people, make you pray for healing instead of going to a hospital, told you that you were inferior because you are a women, forced you to marry someone, or told you that fairy tales written in the Iron age were true, or hold everyone else in the world who doesnt think the same as you with contempt, or told you to believe in some of the fairy tales but not some others in the very same book, and then confusingly, punished you when you didnt believe in some of them. 

I stand by what I said, _There is no such thing as a right religion._


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## Carol (Mar 19, 2010)

And come to think of it, I don't think karate cares about whether you're gay, straight, black, white, dog-owner, cat-owned, who your parents are, or where you came from.


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## Blade96 (Mar 19, 2010)

Carol said:


> And come to think of it, I don't think karate cares about whether you're gay, straight, black, white, dog-owner, cat-owned, who your parents are, or where you came from.





Ken Morgan said:


> Yeah, but Jacklyn, your karate has never told you to kill people, rape people, make you pray for healing instead of going to a hospital, told you that you were inferior because you are a women, forced you to marry someone, or told you that fairy tales written in the Iron age were true, or hold everyone else in the world who doesnt think the same as you with contempt, or told you to believe in some of the fairy tales but not some others in the very same book, and then confusingly, punished you when you didnt believe in some of them.
> 
> I stand by what I said, _There is no such thing as a right religion._



Eh. Can't argue with logic. and facts. 

(well you can, but will look like you're full of horseradish.)


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## AlanE (Mar 20, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Eh. Can't argue with logic. and facts.
> 
> (well you can, but will look like you're full of horseradish.)


Horseradish!?  
That's a good one!


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## Blade96 (Mar 20, 2010)

girlbug2 said:


> I think, Blade, that the post you are referring to isn't about hiding the truth from babies because they 'won't know'. It's an expression of concern that an older child will bear psychological wounds from being aware as an older child that they were betrayed/abandoned by their biological parents--which may result in their never being able to trust parent figures fully again. Whereas, babies are the "blank slates" that don't come with these issues. They may find out lwhen they are older what it means that they were adopted, but their personalities can be fully formed without the mistrust; as far as they are concerned, the only Mom or Dad they ever knew has always stood by them.



Could be. However even an older child can learn to trust if they get the right kind of people. I am an adult. I was hurt and betrayed by most people. I do not trust anyone. But if the right kind came along, I could learn trust. 



AlanE said:


> Horseradish!?
> That's a good one!



Heh.  thanks

and btw thats true. my karate dont care about gay, straight,cat owner, dog owner, black white, etc. which is a good thing for me. It is totally non judgemental. People judge me. My karate does not.


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## Carol (Mar 20, 2010)

To be honest, I think there may be even more pain and mistrust from a deadbeat parent. Adopted kids get a clean break with a new family.  However the child of a deadbeat parent gets intermittent reminders that they are there, but won't take the actions required to care for their child.  

Not to say adoption is easy, but make no mistake -- having a biological child is no guarantee that the parent will have zero trust issues with said child, especially if divorce or abuse become involved.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 20, 2010)

Carol said:


> To be honest, I think there may be even more pain and mistrust from a deadbeat parent. Adopted kids get a clean break with a new family. However the child of a deadbeat parent gets intermittent reminders that they are there, but won't take the actions required to care for their child.
> 
> Not to say adoption is easy, but make no mistake -- having a biological child is no guarantee that the parent will have zero trust issues with said child, especially if divorce or abuse become involved.


 
In one of the schools i'm teaching in right now, it would break your heart to hear some of the poverty and abuse stories some of these little guys go through. Out of the blue they hug you, cuddle into you and tell you crap that goes on at home.

Most of the parents are caring and loving but some of the others...why do these people even have children??? It breaks my heart to hear of 5 and 6 year olds going through hell at home, many would be better off with people who will honestly love them.

Later in life, its all they've learned, its all they know, so guess how they raise there own children? And so it goes on and on.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 20, 2010)

Carol said:


> And come to think of it, I don't think karate cares about whether you're gay, straight, black, white, dog-owner, cat-owned, who your parents are, or where you came from.


 
WTF????!!!
You own a gay cat???!!!!
Blasphemy!! There's a special place in hell for all owners of gay cats....heathen!!


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## Carol (Mar 20, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> WTF????!!!
> You own a gay cat???!!!!
> Blasphemy!! There's a special place in hell for all owners of gay cats....heathen!!


 

Oh yeah?? 

It will be a cold day in Hell!!!!!  :lol2:


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## Aikicomp (Mar 22, 2010)

Tames D said:


> I'm not looking forward to the famous words "you can't tell me what to do, your not my real dad". And to be honest, I don't know how I will respond to that. I know it will break my heart.


 
Funny you should say that, I tried that exact line when things were not going my way.

My father sat me down and said" You know.....I fed you, I bathed you, I healed you, I hugged you, I cried for you, I got mad at you, I worried about you, I protected you...so...I may not be your "real dad" however, in doing all those things I am and always will be.......your father ......Do not ever forget that"

Michael


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## Stac3y (Apr 13, 2010)

An interesting article that speaks to this issue: http://www.slate.com/id/2250590


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