# Favorite Kata of Famous Sensei



## dancingalone (Apr 9, 2012)

I'm always interested in knowing what techniques and kata the older masters favored.  Can anyone correct or add to to this list?

KYAN Chotoku - Passai
NAGAMINE Shosin - Wankan, Wanshu 
MOTOBU Choki - Naihanchi
FUNAKOSHI Gichin - Kusanku/Kwanku Dai  (Not certain on this one, but reportedly he demoed it a lot in his early Japan days when he was trying to grow karate)
OYAMA Mas - Tensho
OTSUKA Honori - Naihanchi
SHIMABUKURO Zenpo - Kusanku
MIYAGI Chojun - Shisochin, reportedly he disliked Sanseiru, and he created Tensho, unknown if we should infer that he favored Tensho or not
HIGA Seiko - Tensho and Kururunfa
TOGUCHI Seikichi - Seipai
SHINJO Masanobu - Suparinpei


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## seasoned (Apr 9, 2012)

Just a comment. 
I to am interested in the Kata's of old, and who favored what. While doing some of the above kata, I consider the older masters body type along with the names and what the names mean, in regard to the kata. I feel there is much insight to be gained into kata practice, with this in mind.


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## dancingalone (Apr 9, 2012)

seasoned said:


> Just a comment.
> I to am interested in the Kata's of old, and who favored what. While doing some of the above kata, I consider the older masters body type along with the names and what the names mean, in regard to the kata. I feel there is much insight to be gained into kata practice, with this in mind.



I've pondered that frequently myself. Of course I am a giant compared to most of the old masters, as you likely are.  

What does this mean for us?  Is big person karate the same as small person karate?  There's a lot of navel contemplation possible there.


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## seasoned (Apr 9, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I've pondered that frequently myself. Of course I am a giant compared to most of the old masters, as you likely are.
> 
> What does this mean for us?  Is big person karate the same as small person karate?  There's a lot of navel contemplation possible there.


You are most correct. There are disadvantages, but we do the best we can.  I do have a picture in one of by albums of Shinjo Masanobu seasei and myself, and the difference is very operant, but once on the floor, his power more then makes up for any doubt.


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## SuperFLY (Apr 10, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> FUNAKOSHI Gichin - Kusanku/Kwanku Dai  (Not certain on this one, but reportedly he demoed it a lot in his early Japan days when he was trying to grow karate)



This is correct. Kanku Dai/Kwanku was his favourite kata and the kata that all the hein katas are based on. Originally named Kusanku after one of his dear friends who reportedly brought the kata to Okinawa. As far as I recall anyway. been a little while since I read Gichin's book.


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## twendkata71 (Apr 10, 2012)

SuperFLY said:


> This is correct. Kanku Dai/Kwanku was his favourite kata and the kata that all the hein katas are based on. Originally named Kusanku after one of his dear friends who reportedly brought the kata to Okinawa. As far as I recall anyway. been a little while since I read Gichin's book.



That is impossible, since Kusanku was on Okinawa about 100 years before Funakoshi. They could not have been friends.


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## SuperFLY (Apr 11, 2012)

replace friend with idol/man he respected then.

i remember he thought a lot of him, presumed it was that they were friends. obviously not 

as said its been a while since i've read about it, memories a bit muddled.


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> MIYAGI Chojun - Shisochin, reportedly he disliked Sanseiru, and he created Tensho, unknown if we should infer that he favored Tensho or not



So Miyagi Sensei's favorite kata was not Sanchin?


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## dancingalone (Apr 14, 2012)

puunui said:


> So Miyagi Sensei's favorite kata was not Sanchin?



Apparently not, going by personal preference.  Sanchin's not my favorite either - but it may be the most important kata.


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Apparently not, going by personal preference.  Sanchin's not my favorite either - but it may be the most important kata.



What is your favorite kata?


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## dancingalone (Apr 14, 2012)

puunui said:


> What is your favorite kata?



Goju-ryu - Kururunfa
Matsubayashi-ryu - Rohai, but sometimes I get on a Passai kick


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## chinto (Apr 14, 2012)

twendkata71 said:


> That is impossible, since Kusanku was on Okinawa about 100 years before Funakoshi. They could not have been friends.




actually about 150 years before Funakoshi.


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## chinto (Apr 14, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I'm always interested in knowing what techniques and kata the older masters favored.  Can anyone correct or add to to this list?
> 
> KYAN Chotoku - Passai
> NAGAMINE Shosin - Wankan, Wanshu
> ...




please note that the passai in question is the tamrai not the shuri te version for Kyan Chotoku Sensei.  the Tamari version is very different then the shuri version of that kata.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Apr 15, 2012)

The masters of old, had one or two favourite katas. The saying goes, "Three years, one kata." They spent so much time focusing on the bunkai for these templates. I remember reading an article by Iain Abernethy on Naihanchi (at least I believe it was that article) claiming that Motobu's favourite kata was Naihanchi, in addition he also favoured Kushanku, Chinto and Passai katas. 

For me, I don't prefer learning so many kata because I find it too overwhelming for me to retain everything. I try to study on bunkai for at least my favourite katas. Holding a black belt in Goju-ryu, I have learned Kobudo and supplementary (foreign) katas, and I felt that I should slow down in learning new katas since Martial Arts is a lifetime of study.


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## TimoS (Apr 16, 2012)

SuperFLY said:


> Kanku Dai/Kwanku was his favourite kata and the kata that all the hein katas are based on



:-offtopic but IMHO the Pinan/Heian kata are partially formed from Kusanku kata, but there are elements from other kata also. If I remember correctly the Pinan and Kusanku correctly, elements from e.g. Jion and (maybe) Chinto are included in them also.


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## OldKarateGuy (Apr 25, 2012)

I believe that most historians of karate would suggest that Itosu created the Heian kata (undoubtely with some assistance, but his is the name usually associated with the Pinan/Heian kata). Supposedly, he based them on a form now lost, called Chai Nang or Channan. Itosu stripped some of the more dangerous technques from this older form, since the Heian (Pinan) forms were actually intended for teaching in the Okinawan public schools. He obviously added content, since it's hard to believe that a single kata contained 5 Heian forms within. 
Kanku (Kushanku) is supposedly named for a historical figure from the 17th Century, an emissary from China to Okinawa, and a military man with experience in the MA. That this man - alternately Ku Shanku or Kong Sung Kung or other similar names - existed and visited Okinawa I think is a matter of historical record. Whether he really taught this form in some form to the Okinawan MA, etc, is another one of those "who knows?" now. Kanku, Bassai, and the Heian forms obviously all share some common ancestry. Whether this is Chinese or Okinawan influence, again, who really knows? 
Kanazawa (SKI founder) tells an interesting story. When Funakoshi Sensei was an old man, late in life, Kanazawa was his young student. Kanazawa learned kanku dai from Funakoshi. Kanazawa had previously learned the same form from another old karate master, who, when both he and Funakoshi were younger men, studied under the great sensei too. Kanazawa asks Funakoshi why the kata is done 2 different ways, one version from the other master and now, another way directly from Funakoshi. Funakoshi replies that he was young, strong and flexible when he taught his old student, but now in his 70's or 80's, his body has changed, and so he teaches the form with higher stances, less strength, etc. Maybe we should all remember this lesson, that kata should not be etched in stone, and that the look and feel of a kata may change depending on the performer. Further, every single instructor who learns and then teaches a kata, will make changes, maybe unconscious or inadvertant, but my students will have my good or bad habits,my quirks. Back in Okinawa and Japan in the early days of karate, every master felt compelled to make changes. So, where a form is from, and what it looked like in some original version, is probably gone forever and we really all are just guessing. 
It does make for interesting reading though.


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## TimoS (Apr 25, 2012)

OldKarateGuy said:


> Supposedly, he based them on a form now lost, called Chai Nang or Channan


Actually, Channan was just the "working title" of the Pinan. What I mean is that Channan was the name of the kata before they were changed to Pinan. From what I've been told, Channan doesn't really mean anything (as a word), whereas Pinan does.


> He obviously added content, since it's hard to believe that a single kata contained 5 Heian forms within.


Well, the Pinan contain elements from Kusanku, Jion and maybe Chinto, at least.


> So, where a form is from, and what it looked like in some original version, is probably gone forever and we really all are just guessing.


Very true. Just take a look at various Sanchin versions. Or Seisan.


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## OldKarateGuy (Apr 26, 2012)

Well, I think this just demonstrates that the history for specific forms is, for the most part, lost forever. Several of Itosu's contemporaries or students quote itosu as saying the origin of the Pinan forms is one or even two Chinese forms, named Chai Nang or Channan (or even Chiang Nam). Further, these various spellings are claimed to be, alternately, something related to a place name, based on "Southern", so Southern Temple, Southern River, etc. Another version is that Channan (or the other spellings) is a fairly common Chinese name, and that Channan was a Chinese Shaolin monk, who taught a Southern style Chinese martial art. Further, although we know roughly the time line of the Heian kata, we obviously know very little about supposed forms which are now forgotten. So, it would be a mistake to try and pick one form as older or as contributing to another. Maybe all the forms you mention share a common ancestry with Channan (if such existed), or maybe Kushanku was the original, and the others newer. And so on. By the way, one version even goes as far as suggesting that Pinan/Heian Godan (Odan, number 5) was actually an entirely new creation of itosu, and that only Pinan 1 through 4 were derived from Channan. Another little suggestion from a single source, a student of Itosu, was that he originally wanted to call the 5 Pinan kata Chiang Nan cho dan, etc (or some version of the name), but felt that the name was too hard to pronounce (?) and he settled on Pinan as fairly simple, and more appropriate for school children. 
I guess Itosu Sensei should have kept better notes.


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## punisher73 (Apr 26, 2012)

The problem is that we don't have any characters for the "original" kata names.  There is some theory that some were just an attempt to pronounce them phonetically from the chinese and that altered over time and then at some point they were attempted to be written down and just tried to find characters that would fit.  This is why the same kata like Naihanchi, has so many different ways of writing it, it's real name and translation is lost to time.

So did "Channon" exist as a kata that is lost?  Who knows.  It is a theory.  What we DO know is that Itosu modeled the pinan kata after Kusanku and Bassai with techniques from other sources (kata).  There are many kata that have different names, but alot of overlap on material with each other.  They could have came from the same source and then were renamed or reincorporated into other katas.


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## SahBumNimRush (Apr 26, 2012)

TimoS said:


> Actually, Channan was just the "working title" of the Pinan. What I mean is that Channan was the name of the kata before they were changed to Pinan. From what I've been told, Channan doesn't really mean anything (as a word), whereas Pinan does.


 
Interesting, I had not heard that before. Where did you hear/read that?


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## TimoS (Apr 26, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Interesting, I had not heard that before. Where did you hear/read that?



I can't remember right now, but I'll try to remember dig up some references. From what I remember, there isn't any _direct_ evidence on Channan being just the working title of Pinan, but if I remember correctly, there is some indirect evidence.


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## dancingalone (Apr 26, 2012)

Depends on the account you believe I suppose.  Patrick McCarthy Hanshi says in his book Ancient Okinawan Arts, Vol 2 Koryu Uchinadi, that Channan may have been the name of a Chinese monk or exiled court official who brought 2 root kata to Okinawa that became named for him:  Channan Dai and Sho.  Itosu supposedly used this two kata as much of the inspiration for Pinan 1-4 and then came up with Pinan Godan himself.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 26, 2012)

OldKarateGuy said:


> I He obviously added content, since it's hard to believe that a single kata contained 5 Heian forms within.



I'm not familiar with these kata, but I'll just say that it is certainly possible that one Chinese form could have been cut into five shorter forms.  One of our beginner level forms in my system is really really long.  If I race thru the form as fast as I can and don't bother with quality, it takes about two minutes to complete, like running sprints.  If I do the form properly and pay attention to details and work to get everything right, it can take 3-4 minutes.  That form is often broken in half and taught as two, and even then they are really long.  Depending on how long one might wish forms for public school children to be, one could definitely get five separate forms out of this one.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Apr 27, 2012)

TimoS said:


> :-offtopic but IMHO the Pinan/Heian kata are partially formed from Kusanku kata, but there are elements from other kata also. If I remember correctly the Pinan and Kusanku correctly, elements from e.g. Jion and (maybe) Chinto are included in them also.



I agree with you. Iain Abernethy claimed that the Pinan/Heian system which Anko Itosu created and introduced into the elementary school system are based off of templates taken from Kushanku, Chinto, and Passai to name a few.


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## chinto (Apr 28, 2012)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> I agree with you. Iain Abernethy claimed that the Pinan/Heian system which Anko Itosu created and introduced into the elementary school system are based off of templates taken from Kushanku, Chinto, and Passai to name a few.



yes and if you know the katas you can see the techniques from each, Kusanku, Chinto, and Passai,  Depending on which version of the Pinan kata you are looking at and which one of them.


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## TimoS (May 5, 2012)

About this Channan vs. Pinan "controversy", here are some points to consider:
- According to Motobu, Itosu himself said that Channan was just a "working title", see e.g. here http://seinenkai.com/articles/swift/swift-motobu1.html
- If Itosu knew Channan and saw it as an important kata, why didn't any of his students learn it? And if he based Pinan kata on it, it must've been pretty important 
- If there ever was a Channan kata, it must've contained many of the same techniques as the other kata (Kusanku, Chinto, Jion, etc.), so it must not have been that important, which then raises the question why would Itosu then base the Pinan kata on it?


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## TimoS (May 5, 2012)

Also, why is that all these Channan versions around there seem to have only one thing in common between them: no Okinawan teacher is teaching them, not even any Japanese teacher. Where did they learn it from? Chinese? The versions I've seen (on youtube) don't look very Chinese to me.
All who claim to teach it seem to be westerners and all the versions seem to look totally different from each other. One would assume that IF (and that's a pretty big if) there really was this kata called Channan, that these versions would resemble each other.


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## dancingalone (May 6, 2012)

TimoS said:


> Also, why is that all these Channan versions around there seem to have only one thing in common between them: no Okinawan teacher is teaching them, not even any Japanese teacher. Where did they learn it from? Chinese? The versions I've seen (on youtube) don't look very Chinese to me.
> All who claim to teach it seem to be westerners and all the versions seem to look totally different from each other. One would assume that IF (and that's a pretty big if) there really was this kata called Channan, that these versions would resemble each other.



As I read the accounts, Channan was the name apocryphally given to the form after it arrived in Okinawa.  It would not have been called Channan in China.

<shrugs>  Who knows ultimately?


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## OldKarateGuy (May 8, 2012)

I'm with dancing alone. No one really has a clue about how these forms evolved, since Itosu and his students present varying versions of the story. In the end, how important is it really? I know at least one well known Shotokan instructor has written a a book about the origins of the Pinan forms, and attemps to reconstruct a Channan (Chai Nang, whatever) one and two in the book, but he's really just guessing. 
Like I said, it makes for interesting reading.


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## punisher73 (May 11, 2012)

I posted this on another thread, but it is useful here on the discussion of pinan vs. channan.  This was an interview conducted with Sensei Pat Nakata, who was a longtime student of Chibana Sensei, who was a direct student of Itosu Sensei.



> Ok, here are the bits of the interview with Sensei Pat Nakata. The interview is taken from Classifcal Fighting Arts #21.
> 
> CFA: Where did Chibana learn from Itosu? Where was Itosu teacing at that time?
> Nakata: Chibana sensei started learning from Itosu Sensei about the time Itosu Sensei was introducing karate into public schools. Since Chibana had dropped out of school to learn karate from Itosu (notice, while Nakata is speaking formal titles are used, for brevity in typing I will use last name only), his training was at the residence of Itosu.
> ...


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