# Tai Chi/Tai Chi Chuan



## Kunoichi (Oct 19, 2004)

Im quite new to the Tai Chi scene and I'm very keen to get into it. However, the only places nearby I can find teach the health focused 'Tai Chi' and not the martial art form of 'Tai Chi Chuan'.  I may be mistaken in my views of the differences between these.

      Are 'Tai Chi' and 'Tai Chi Chuan' much different from each other or are they basically the same but with a different focus?  I am very eager to learn more about utilising chi energy although I would prefer it in the martial form, although I might just be acting fussy about nothing.

All replies are appreciated


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 19, 2004)

i studied yang style tai chi under donna oliver when i was going to shiatsu school, she is a master instructor under sifu Andy James. As she explained it to me, the form is still the same, as to whether or not the teacher understands the martial applications is entirely different. there are also a few different styles, Yang, Chen, Wu, cheng man ching.....etc. Some styles are sometimes referred to as more martial than others, but the reality is, all of the forms are applicable to martial arts. Find a teacher that will teach Pushing hands as a way to refine your understanding and feel of chi with another person. 

shawn


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## pakua (Oct 20, 2004)

I thought "Tai Chi" was just the short-hand, conversational, way of referring to "Tai Chi Chuan" day-to-day?

But since "Chuan" is "fist", maybe I'm wrong and only the martial art as opposed to fitness school _is_ Tai Chi Chuan.

On the other hand, since the sword form is _Tai Chi Chien_, (chien=sword)it makes sense that the empty-handed form is _Tai Chi Chuan_.... and _Tai Chi_ for short :idunno: 

Anyway, I'm loving it so far!


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## Kunoichi (Oct 20, 2004)

I used to think they were the same until I started looking into near-by classes. the tai chi class just talked about the health benefits and peacefulness from it whereas the tai chi chuan class (which I cant go to because of work times) talked about the martial application of it. Thats where I was getting confused.

Thanks for the replies, i'm going to the Tai Chi class on Friday so i'm sure i'll learn then.

Regards


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## Dronak (Oct 22, 2004)

I thought the same as pakua, that "tai chi" is just a shortened version of "tai chi chuan".  However, it is possible that place that teach more of the martial aspects will use the full name to help distinguish themselves from the places that don't.  That could be a quick way to decide what they teach, but I think it's better to just go in and talk to them or observe a class and find out for yourself.  If they're teaching what you want to learn, it doesn't really matter much what it's called, right?


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## Zathras (Nov 12, 2004)

Kunoichi said:
			
		

> Im quite new to the Tai Chi scene and I'm very keen to get into it. However, the only places nearby I can find teach the health focused 'Tai Chi' and not the martial art form of 'Tai Chi Chuan'.  I may be mistaken in my views of the differences between these.


Tai Chi (Chuan) is a martial art regardless of whether you choose to understand martial application, though some understanding will help help your study.

Typically the "health focused" stuff is simply not Tai Chi imo. My advise is to be careful when choosing and avoid these kind of places as a rule.

I'm sure there are exceptions where real Tai Chi is taught but without going into detail of the martial applications, but suspect they are rare and you would need to have some existing understanding and knowledge to ascertain this when speaking with the teacher.  That said, post 1 year of study I'm not sure you can teach Tai Chi without some emphasis on the martial.


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## Zathras (Nov 13, 2004)

Just come across an article which opens with a good note relating to my post above from  Kelly MacLean.



> Most people who begin a study of Taiji come to the art for a gentle form of exercise, to improve their health and manage stress in their lives, or because they are interested in Oriental philosophy and meditation. These are valid reasons to practice Taiji, but one should recognise that Taiji is a martial art, and though it is generally practised slowly, every movement has an application, in terms of self defence. One may not have any interest in fighting, but understanding of the applications ultimately helps one to do the movements more correctly, and engages the mind by focusing intent. Focusing intent also enhances the health benefits of Taiji practice, as it increases and directs the flow of Qi, or vital energy, in the body.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 13, 2004)

Taijichuan has four different branches chen/ yang/ wu and sun ( and baji off that) and of those I have stiudied three with masters in china. I would _never_ ( to rarely ) take instruction from a westerner on it, because they too often miss the foundational aspects. Look for a chinese instructor and check their credibility by lineage search . There's tai chi , there's taichi chuan, theres taijeetchuan and there's taijichaun. Check it out on on google perhaps for your area. Duibuqi, not familiar with much ma in the UK at all. 

Just be fussy and enjoy your practice. Best patient than to learn in error.

BL


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## 7starmantis (Nov 14, 2004)

There are different styles of tai chi. However, it is pretty nieve to think only a chinese instructor can give you the type of instruction you are seeking. Like many different stereotypes this is false. There are many "westerners" who understand and can teach tai chi including the martial aspect of it.
In my opinion, without the martial application its not really tai chi, but there are different reasons to study tai chi and they are all valid even if I dont agree with them. Also, in refrence to credibility, they should prove that with skill not by lineage. Lineage really doesn't tell much, it can give great hints and backup things, but their real credability comes from their knowledge and skill alone. 

Do be patient, as most know here, it takes many years to learn tai chi so be patient and enjoy the learning process.


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## 7starmantis (Nov 14, 2004)

Oh and tai chi is basically "shorthand" for tai chi chuan. There are millions of ways to spell it that people will argue over for hours. I think some however, do use tai chi as the lighter class while calling their more martial class tai chi chuan.

7sm


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 14, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> There are different styles of tai chi. However, it is pretty nieve to think only a chinese instructor can give you the type of instruction you are seeking. Like many different stereotypes this is false. There are many "westerners" who understand and can teach tai chi including the martial aspect of it.
> In my opinion, without the martial application its not really tai chi, but there are different reasons to study tai chi and they are all valid even if I dont agree with them. Also, in refrence to credibility, they should prove that with skill not by lineage. Lineage really doesn't tell much, it can give great hints and backup things, but their real credability comes from their knowledge and skill alone.
> 
> Do be patient, as most know here, it takes many years to learn tai chi so be patient and enjoy the learning process.


I'd usually like to agree with that lineage remark, but when it comes to internal branches , I'm probably just slightly more pedantic about my instructor and where they're getting it from.  Personal preference  really and you may just be lucky 7, but there are a _busload_ of mcdojos out there, and most westerners can't even accept qi.  Unfortunately those mcdojos just greatly comprimise credence for alot of other westerner instructed  schools and in the end, for many arts, going to an asian source just saves time .......  though even then I'd still like to check them out.  There are definately some great instructors out there who are non-chinese, just few and far between I've personally found.  

btw : fyi, in many parts of china, taiji and bagua zhang, are under the same umbrella and often cross termed to refer to either :idunno:  ( just like they often call my dimmak chinna I guess )

BL


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## 7starmantis (Nov 14, 2004)

Rule of thumb for verifying instructors: Regardless of race or color or creed, there are many crazy people out there, and many who are only interested in your money. Be careful and diligently check out any instructor white, black, purple, or green. Its really too bad that there isn't some sort of agency with whom you could check out schools, but the BBB for MA has been discused many times and is simply not possible. Research and checkout anyone who wants to sell you anything, be it shoes or martial arts.

7sm


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## Flatlander (Nov 14, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Rule of thumb for verifying instructors: Regardless of race or color or creed, there are many crazy people out there, and many who are only interested in your money.


I agree with this wholeheartedly.  Race is of no consequence - there is no quality which makes a person of any particular race any more qualified or able to teach or learn.  Any assertion of such is unfounded and fallacious. :asian:


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## pakua (Nov 14, 2004)

Personally, I'd steer clear of green or purple people just in case they're not well  :barf: which could be messy


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## Zathras (Nov 15, 2004)

Like the term mcdojo...  :asian:

On the other point, a good knowledgeable teacher can be from any background of course.  However Blooming Lotus does have a point which is your odds are better if you avoid westerners generally due to the ratio of good/bad.

But don't rule out westerners completely, for instance my teacher is western and has 40+ years of experience which is evident when you see him move! simply awe inspiring.


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## 7starmantis (Nov 15, 2004)

I dont agree, Zathras. I think thats a stereotype that has been widely accepted. Because someone is chinese means that have a greater chance of being good at tai chi and a respectable person/teacher? Thats simply not true. I'm native american, does that mean I have greater chances of being an alcoholic and owning a casino? Ok thats a strong analogy, but you see my point? It would be like saying if you want to learn how to hunt or track animals in todays world and society, you have better chances of learning how to do that by seeking out a native american teacher. Thats just simply not the case, irregardless of wether it was at one time or not.

 7sm


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 15, 2004)

martial artistry in china ( and chinese civilisation as a whole  for that matter) is many thousands of yrs older than our own.  Therefore, and if you've ever been there you'll understand the difference,  chances of finding best instruction from a native, is far greater than elsewhere ( and with consideration to chinese affection for ancestory)  nor  from westerners in general.  There are definately great non - chinese shifu about ...  just harder to come by and distinguish IMO.


BL


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## East Winds (Nov 25, 2004)

Blooming Lotus,

I've been to China several times (and not just the touristy bits!!!). Believe me, since China started opening up, there is plenty of "Tourist" Taiji available and some of it is pretty bad!!!!!!!!! Most Chinese learn and teach the Wushu, or modern, forms (ie. 24 step, 32 step or 88 step) although there are still traditional teachers to be found, but you have to look for them. And yes, I think lineage is important. If a teacher can "Prove" (and the im-oprtant word here is prove) a good lineage, then you have a fair guarantee that what he/she is teaching has a good foundation.

What makes you think that Dim Mak and Chin NA are interchangeable terms? or that Baguzhang and Taijiquan are the same? Check your teachers credentials if that is what you have been told!!!!!

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 25, 2004)

bagua and tai ji are both internal systems and therefore share some base concepts ( like the stepping style though one is eight step and the other 3) and warm up and qi cultivation and direction methods ( like the meridan slapping for example )  , and in fact, the term bagua in china, is another of those that are loosely defined and often applied to other systems of similar nature. I can appreciate what you're saying about there being decent instructors in the west, but from my own experience, they are few and far between. The reason I say dim mak and chin na are interchangeable ( though dimmak from WC and chin na being from shaolin makes apps slightly different ) is because A. obviously they both wqork on pressure point striking concepts and B. from the chinese police to the taiwan forensics unit police to shaolin practitioners in shaolin city ( dengfeng henan and surrounding areas) my dim mak was often thought of and called chin na. Then when I sparred chin na with both those chinese police and the shaolin students studying or having learnt at either tagou or the temple itself , my dim mak in practice was still playing as chin na. It's just points being applied to locks / holds and submissions where dimmak ( pending the style you superimpose it to) is largely points being applied to linear striking alah WC .

To say that wushu is what is being taught and learnt by most in china is simpley not true. I personally travelled the majority of provinces and found many styles being taught throughout. The Cultural Revoloution is over and that is no longer true. Traditional cma, ( as opposed to goverment compulsory systems ) is still alive well and thriving.

cheers

blooming lotus


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## East Winds (Nov 25, 2004)

Blooming Lotus,

I agree that Taiji and Bagua are internals systems. So are Hsing-I and Liu Ho Pa Fa,  but they are certainly not the same as Taijiquan. Taijiquan can be likened to a rubber ball, passive and receiving. Resilient until it is compressed, when it releases its inherent elasticity. Bagua is like a woven wire ball. Empty and firm utilizing the aspect of revolution. By twisting and turning on its own axis it traps and entwines its opponent. Hsing-I is like a steel ball. rolling and wedging its way through any opening it can find. Like a steel ball it must keep moving to be effective. Liu Ho Pa Fa is a synthesis of these three, being considered the ultimate internal martial art. They cannot be confused and they are certainly not the same!! 24 step or Simplified Peking Form is the most common form of taijiquan you will find being practised in China. It is the first form taught in Wushu schools and University Campuses. Yes, the Cultural Revolution is over, but Wushu still persists as the dominant MA. And of course you will find Yang, Chen, Sun, Wu, Wuu, and Li styles being taught, but you need to seek out a teacher of these forms. 

And saying that Dim Mak and Chin Na are the same because they act on pressure points just does not wash. That is like saying that Karate and Tae Kwon Do are the same. 

I think we will have to agree to differ.

Very best wishes

Alistair


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 25, 2004)

I think so. :asian: 



cheers



Blooming Lotus

btw : to say something is the same and to say something shares aspects are different statements altogether.

amitopho


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## East Winds (Nov 25, 2004)

Blooming Lotus

"btw : fyi, in many parts of china, taiji and bagua zhang, are under the same umbrella and often cross termed to refer to either  ( just like they often call my dimmak chinna I guess )"

Your words, not mine!!

I assume by your logic then that Karate and Taijiquan are the same as they are both Asian?

Sorry, flawed logic

By the way, I entirely agree about your Macdojo sentiments.

P.S. The words Taiji or T'ai Chi on its own is a meaningless term. It means by literal translation "Supreme Ultimate". It needs the qualifier Ch'uan (Fist or Boxing) to make it a meaningful expression. The shortened version is used for convenience only. 

regards


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 25, 2004)

That's nonsensecial . I don't understand how you're finding a karate / taiji connection from " my logic" at all. And for the record, karate certainly was from Asia but as you are well aware, taiji and daoist gongfu are not the only Asian systems, but now that you mention it, being shaolin gongfu was an amalgamated expansion of confucism and daoist theories and combat styles and philosphies, probably not as ludicrous as it sounds. 



Tai ji / taiji chuan ... its all semantics my friend and as you should know, again " tai ji " is a perfectly acceptable and widely recognised term for the style. My non - yingyue speaking Henan Taijiquan Master knew what I was talking about anyway. Just like when people say "shaolin " meaning young forrest in literal translation without the buddhism or gongfu on the end, are as equally understood. Besides , how many taijiquan schools are advertised as taichi centers anyway and still we know what they're talking about......... sheesh dude.
Later

Blooming Lotus


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## cintagothy (Nov 25, 2004)

May I ask: East Winds, Blooming Lotus - how much time were you able to spend in China?  I am intrigued that you have such different perspectives.

I was grateful to spend 2 weeks there earlier this year, exchanging demonstrations with 2 Shao Lin temples and 2 Kung Fu schools.  I was pleased to note that I saw a great deal more martial intent than I expected.  I also noted Wu Shu was still predominant (in what we saw).  The flexibility of showiness of this style must be very compelling to young pre-teen and teenage boys.  Most of the martial forms we saw tended to be practiced by either the very young or by elder masters (ages 55-65).

I also found it deeply inspiring to watch the Tai Chi (Chuan!  he he) demonstrations.  It was easy to see that several of the elder masters had been practicing for decades; in fact, a 65 year old Chien Tai Chi practitioner brought us all to our feet, clapping.

The current western v. eastern internal instructor debate notwithstanding, have either of you encountered much resistance to teaching non-Chinese, or been intentionally taught watered-down Tai Chi?  

-C


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 26, 2004)

I'm sure that the majority of mcdojos of any given style don't intend to give you dodgy instruction and likely believe they are teaching exactly as it should be taught.............. but they're not  
Bad instruction perpetuated is a vicious cycle of token practice and unfortunately, for those students who really are dedicated, often not what they're paying for at all.

I spent about a year in china, and though it doesn't sound like long, when you're exposed to it in this capacity and where it was created , it is an experience tyhat I couldn't get in 5 nor 10 years at home!!! It's everywhere and in all styles conceivable. You go out in the play ground, and they're playing gongfu, you go out early of a morning and they're playing taiji or doing bagua palm conditioning. You turn your back in class to write something on the board..and when you turn back around, the students are dimmaking each other ............. You have a meeting with your principal or a colleague and end up sparring. And every one has a new story to tell from history ( and the ppl you meet on those long 1 and 2 day hot and dirty train rides across the country is an awesome experience of its own) , to information on political influence, to religion to origin to training methods and ,medicine to other gwailo ( foreigners ) you meet on the same adventiure as yourself that you can have a laugh with about how sick you are and bad you smell, how much your legs ache when you have to do a squat toilet ( with no toilet paper or light) after a days training and so on. It's a poor, often extremely hot or cold crazy gongfuing nation. If you haven't done the extended trip, I highly recommend it to everyone!!!! In fact I know a guy who did the same trip for 6 mths, did a very quick stop in Taiwan for the same , and went to Cambodia, wrote a book about it , won a few titles and now is doing kungfu movies!!!! lol........ extremely cool stuff!!

In that year I spent abbout 4 mths just near the Henan Songshan shaolin temple ( and only 20 mins on a bus to the very first buddhist temple in china ever in luoyang ) , spent time at the most famous and best reputed gongfu schools in the world ( tagou), spent time with monks, played with their students, and also visited and got instruction from schools, shifu, ex-champions from both china and abroad, police, army officers and a couple of masters from Beijing, Shenyang ( Manchuria) , Shanghai, Guangzhou, Anhui and had a quick look at HongKong.
I was there to both study as much "authentic" gongfu as I could possibley find, and research gongfu history and philosophy for my phd in chan buddhism. I also taught English to make a living to post grads and teachers , so I was exposed to alot of academic and historical information. I also had quite intimate contact with a couple of disciples ( one with a school and few monks of his own (   ) , and another who is a writer , reporter and publisher for quite a successful gongfu magazine with an abundance of scholarly information and similarly many contacts endowed with information himself) daily for the most part for about 14mths. Alot of my students had history degrees and majors and helped me interperate many a chinese language document or translation that would have otherwise been inaccessable......... alot of these works and so on not being translated anywhere in english, and until we get a programme that converts chinese characters into english, likely never will. 
I have been extremely privilaged to have learnt what I have, but am always open to consider new or different information and understand thoroughly that there is always more to learn and always will be.

Hope this helps

Blooming Lotus


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## East Winds (Nov 26, 2004)

Clintagothy,

Your experiences very much mirror my own in regards to Taiji and Wushu training in China. On my last visit to China, we flew to Tashkent, then travelled through Uzebikistan and Kyrgystan over the Torurgart Pass and into China. We then travelled West to East and on to Beijing. It was interesting that we did not see or experience any Wushu until we were well accross China. In fact it was in Turfan before we saw any Taiji at all. 

I have trained Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan for 15 years now, the last 4 with a lineaged Master who comes from Yang Zhen Ji (the second son of Yang Cheng-Fu). And yes, I have been down many blind alleys in my Taiji training (and sad to say, down the same blind alley more than once!!). And yes in the early days before I knew any better, experienced some very bad teaching both from Western and Chinese teachers.

Blooming Lotus,

I thought I had made it clear in my last post that Taiji, T'ai Chi and Tajiquan were all about semantics and that Tai C'hi was just a conveniet (and shorthand) way of describing Taijiquan. The original question was, what is the difference between T'ai Chi and T'ai Chi Ch'uan? The answers is no difference. You did however say that Tai Chi and Bagua were interchangeable terms. Thats where we differ. I bow to your vast experience of taijiquan and can I ask, which forms you play?

Very best wishes


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## pakua (Nov 26, 2004)

East Winds said:
			
		

> I bow to your vast experience of taijiquan


No need to be sarky there Jock.


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## East Winds (Nov 26, 2004)

Sorry Pakua,

There was no intention of being sarky. I was just interested in the claim that he had  "...of those I have stiudied three with masters in china." I assumed he had studied these forms elsewhere, as after a year I had barely learned the sequence of moves of the long form, and I was merely interested to know which forms and to what depth his study had been. 

Very best wishes


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 26, 2004)

Firstly this he is a she and I don't have as much experience in taiji as yourself, but as much as you have taiji I have cma general and particularly qigong. 

Beside the point, and I didn't say 3 masters ( and in fact indicated there were actually more :0  ) that was your assumption and we all know what assumption does. What I said was ( or meant to if I didn't literate clearly enough) is that when asking, gesturing to indicate and speaking about taiji, locals referred to as ba gua, just like when demoing dimmak they refered to that as chin na. Go figure a local mind. I've even had shaolin called wushu, and it is anything but, shaolin gongfu being closer to the original style and wushu being a governmental compulosry and dictated style created during the CR, more akin to gymnastics and performance but also a term meaning martial arts in general.



How long were you in China yourself?? And being different things ( aspects and styles ) are highlighted and more readily found and typically practiced more from place to place ( particularly pending IMO proximity of most local " creation point " for any given style or temple, 10 master locales ( widely accepted and recognised by the PRC government as Chinas greatest masters) and then their students and schools off that etc), do you mind me asking which provinces you studied in?? Just gives me an idea of your exposure.

Cheers 



Blooming Lotus


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## East Winds (Nov 26, 2004)

Blooming Lotus,

Please accept my sincere apologies for assuming you were a "he". That was quite unforgiveable of me!! I have studied in Shanghai, Beijing and of course Henan Province, the home of the Yang family. I worked on Chen style for a while with a Chinese Master, but not long enough to call myself one of his students.

very best wishes


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 26, 2004)

I've studied both chen ( at home and in china ) and yang ( in China) myself. It's funny that you say you got your yang from Henan, because I found myself that chen taiji masters seemed to be everywhere there, and my own master there played and taught chen herself. I did find Anhui ( Hefei ) quite dominant with Yang though and Beijing having the Beijing university where you can ( and the shaolin monks do ) get degrees in martial artistry and philosophy, a great general Taiji hot spot for practically all styles ( and huge on wushu ,which could explain why you thought that's predominantly what everyone is teaching ) , though don't quote me on the "sun", because I can't be sure I saw any.



Shanghai is home to I think 2 of the top ten "chinas great master " contingent and it's not surprising you'd find some great schooling there. When you were learning taiji there, was it in a school or private on public sites?? And how often and long did you train in a week?? 

I was fortunate in Henan to have a colleague ( our school accountant of 65+ yrs taiji exp ) offer to teach me each morning. WE'd usually spend about an hour only, but she also knew I did my own qigong and body weight exercises and basic warm ups for up to 2 hrs each day before I saw her. i think my long form only took about 3 weeks to grasp , but then I drilled on my own at home as well. Another colleague I used to play with was an ex-national sanda champ, another who was an ex-shaolin student, and my 2 prinicals both extremely proficient in snake / crane and various others, and I guess she took that and my maing study on the side with them into account aswell. I don't think I studied long enough to remember the whole form today, but if I had a refresher, no doubt I'd just click straight back into the flow. I do remember base concepts, little tips on form posture and stepping etc though , so being that they all taught me for love of the game ( free ) ,  still well worth the effort. 



Cheers



Blooming Lotus


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## Zathras (Dec 3, 2004)

Just come back to this thread and looks like it has now been completely hi-jacked going way off topic sorry Kunoichi.  :idunno: 

So can I suggest maybe Blooming Lotus / East Winds should start a new thread for your discussion.  Its actually interesting to follow just off topic methinks. 
  :asian:


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## 7starmantis (Dec 3, 2004)

Threads are expected to have a gentle natural progression and "sway" if you will. I generally let them progress naturally if there is no posting still going on that its distracting from. 

 Thanks for your concern, if you have something to post about the topic go ahead, we'll get it back on topic here.

 -MT Mod-
 7sm
 Adam C


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