# Why should law enforcement  officers  train BJJ?



## CoachRonald (Jun 30, 2018)

Hi dears comrades,

Nowadays everybody seems to be aware  of the importance of  BJJ being part of the  routine  of training. There are many  reasons  to  become  adept,  but in the  case of  military  and law eforcement  officers it  seems like there was a remaining doubt if it is an appropriated way to become  able  to  defend one self and reach  the  best preparedness as  a training program enables.  So here are some  good reasons I would like to share with  all of you guys that still hesitate.

Regards

Strategic-tactical optimization in hand-to-hand combat: the mastery of grappling as a determining factor in encounters

Publishers Panel


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## JR 137 (Jun 30, 2018)

CoachRonald said:


> Hi dears comrades,
> 
> Nowadays everybody seems to be aware  of the importance of  BJJ being part of the  routine  of training. There are many  reasons  to  become  adept,  but in the  case of  military  and law eforcement  officers it  seems like there was a remaining doubt if it is an appropriated way to become  able  to  defend one self and reach  the  best preparedness as  a training program enables.  So here are some  good reasons I would like to share with  all of you guys that still hesitate.
> 
> ...


I didn’t watch the video.  But to answer why should LEOs train in BJJ, it’s pretty simple.  A LEOs objective is to get a resisting perpetrator into hand cuffs.  That quite often involves putting them flat on their stomach with their hands behind their back.  Punching and kicking probably isn’t the easiest way to achieve that.

I’d think BJJ, Judo and wrestling are probably well suited for that.  Then again I’m not a LEO, so maybe I’m way off here.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 1, 2018)

CoachRonald said:


> Nowadays everybody seems to be aware  of the importance of  BJJ being part of the  routine  of training.


It’s not part of mine.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 1, 2018)

Ok, I tried to watch the video.  It was pretty much unwatchable.  What were you hoping to show us?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 1, 2018)

What's the law enforcement officers need? The take down (throwing) skill. The take down skill is not BJJ's strong point.

How much training time do average BJJ guys spend in stand up wrestling? IMO, not as much as wrestlers or Judo guys.


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## CoachRonald (Jul 1, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the law enforcement officers need? The take down (throwing) skill. The take down skill is not BJJ's strong point.
> 
> How much training time do average BJJ guys spend in stand up wrestling? IMO, not as much as wrestlers or Judo guys.




Not necessarily. Indeed in the past it could be enough, but nowadays throwing a criminal to the ground might  be even more dangerous for cops,  if the enemy is a Jiu Jitsu practionner. If he falls in an ofensive guard might lose your arms, legs or be strangled.  Altough Jiu Jitsu match is not defined by the amount of  throwing  techniques scores,  it embraces all taking down tecniques that can be effectivelly aplied in a general enconter whose objetive is subjue the opponet. Basides this,  there are different schools and trends in jj among   which you can find jj athletes with higher proficiency in taking down techniques than wrestlers  (1)  (2) despite the reduced arsenal.
The circumstances of non-rules encounters is totally conected to BJJ atmosphere.The context of non-rules encounters finds the best paralel in BJJ whose atmosphere  goes beyond the scores and variabilities of techniques.

(1)






(2)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 1, 2018)

CoachRonald said:


> Not necessarily.


Do you agree that

- wrestlers and Judo guys take down skill are better than BJJ guys take down skill?
- BJJ guy's ground skill is better than wrestlers and Judo guy's ground skill?

It's like to say that boxer has better punch than TKD guy has, but TKD guy has better kick than boxer has. It's not styles but how much training time that you put in. Many BJJ schools don't even train stand up grappling. All Judo and wrestling training start from stand up. Some BJJ school training start from knee down.

To spend training time in the following skill will not be able to help any law enforcement officers.


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## JR 137 (Jul 1, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you agree that
> 
> - wrestlers and Judo guys take down skill are better than BJJ guys take down skill?
> - BJJ guy's ground skill is better than wrestlers and Judo guy's ground skill?
> ...


That clip NEVER gets old.


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## punisher73 (Jul 2, 2018)

I would say after working LE/Corrections for 20+ years that it would be better for Police to train in wrestling than BJJ.  Wrestling provides you with takedown defense and positional control and staying off your back.  Also, depending on your state, techniques designed to damage or inflict injury are very hard to defend in court.  What does BJJ's submissions do?  They are designed to inflict injury to an attacker's joints.  I can't put an armbar on someone during an arrest and hope they tapout.  Now what are my tactical choices?  I'm on my back and have the proverbial "tiger by the tail".  Chokes?  Where I live, the state considers them deadly force for officers, so can't use any of those to subdue a suspect.

Based on my experience and what I have seen.  The majority of officers in "ground fights" used wrestling skills: takedown defense, takedowns and positional control to pin the suspect and restrain them.  The other skill that an officer needs is breakfalls, which is better learned in Judo.


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## CoachRonald (Jul 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you agree that
> 
> - wrestlers and Judo guys take down skill are better than BJJ guys take down skill?
> - BJJ guy's ground skill is better than wrestlers and Judo guy's ground skill?
> ...


Of course. It would be the rule, but in spite of the specialization, the wrestling and judo training are characterized by unnecessary movements, energetically irrationals. On the other hand JJ optmized some of these techniques by adpting them to a different scenario as it can be verifyed in the ADCC turnaments. Regarding this video, it's common among the new schools. However, even though it seems ugly and ridiculous, it's not expected a non JJ practionner to survive, once get into the guard.


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## dvcochran (Jul 2, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> I would say after working LE/Corrections for 20+ years that it would be better for Police to train in wrestling than BJJ.  Wrestling provides you with takedown defense and positional control and staying off your back.  Also, depending on your state, techniques designed to damage or inflict injury are very hard to defend in court.  What does BJJ's submissions do?  They are designed to inflict injury to an attacker's joints.  I can't put an armbar on someone during an arrest and hope they tapout.  Now what are my tactical choices?  I'm on my back and have the proverbial "tiger by the tail".  Chokes?  Where I live, the state considers them deadly force for officers, so can't use any of those to subdue a suspect.
> 
> Based on my experience and what I have seen.  The majority of officers in "ground fights" used wrestling skills: takedown defense, takedowns and positional control to pin the suspect and restrain them.  The other skill that an officer needs is breakfalls, which is better learned in Judo.


I was an officer in the '80's and '90's so I understand thinks are a little different now. Even 30 years ago there was nothing Martial in the "ideal" LE confrontation and that was drilled into us in defensive training and legal/courtroom training. Standing takedowns and submissions were practiced the most, all ending with the assailant on their back. We were drilled to wait for backup when possible. Unfortunately, we live(d) in a small town and sometimes there was only one officer on duty. That changed the dynamic quite and bit and ,of course, the approach. It was a time before everything was live on video so that was seldom a concern. Still, my endgame was getting the cuffs on as quickly as possible, before any added mental escalation took place whenever possible. Leave them no room to consider whether you are in control or not. Standoffs are a very bad idea.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 2, 2018)

CoachRonald said:


> Of course. It would be the rule, but in spite of the specialization, the *wrestling and judo training are characterized by unnecessary movements, *energetically irrationals. On the other hand JJ optmized some of these techniques by adpting them to a different scenario as it can be verifyed in the ADCC turnaments. Regarding this video, it's common among the new schools. However, even though it seems ugly and ridiculous, it's not expected a non JJ practionner to survive, once get into the guard.



I have heard a lot of martial artists say their art is the best.  I can easily discount them all as I know mine is the best, being the most effective for everything, including law enforcement.  BTW have you worked in law enforcement?  If not, then I think you may just be parroting what someone else has said, and that person may also not have been LEO.  Or maybe in a different country and/or culture.

I don't nor ever have studied BJJ, but it appears most BJJ practitioners wish to move to the ground as quickly as possible.  That is not a place a LEO should want to be, especially if in a hostile environment with other potential assailants.


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## Buka (Jul 2, 2018)

Welcome to MartialTalk, Coach Ronald. Nice to have you.

I'm in Law Enforcement. And I love BJJ. It's one of my favorite things ever, has been for a long time.

But I agree with Punisher 73.  One hundred percent. I wish I could have said it as well.


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## CoachRonald (Jul 2, 2018)

Buka said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk, Coach Ronald. Nice to have you.
> 
> I'm in Law Enforcement. And I love BJJ. It's one of my favorite things ever, has been for a long time.
> 
> But I agree with Punisher 73.  One hundred percent. I wish I could have said it as well.



Thanks buddy for the welcoming. I agree with comrade Punisher about the importance of having good skills in taking the opponent down as  well  as defeding from taking downs attack. Wrestling and Judo have good arsenal  so that  they are part of the method I use that  develops them on Jiu Jitsu atmosphere that makes them more efective. The most modern hand to hand system _American combatives_ is based on BJJ that embrace all grappling techniques that works in a chalanging atmosphere in which all styles are put under fire by having their techniques  tested in their combat efectiveness. There a lot of methodological feilures in jiu jitsu schools,  even the old schools,  but the atmosphere is good to attach new fundamentals, so it's more flexible  than  other arts.


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## CoachRonald (Jul 2, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> I would say after working LE/Corrections for 20+ years that it would be better for Police to train in wrestling than BJJ.  Wrestling provides you with takedown defense and positional control and staying off your back.  Also, depending on your state, techniques designed to damage or inflict injury are very hard to defend in court.  What does BJJ's submissions do?  They are designed to inflict injury to an attacker's joints.  I can't put an armbar on someone during an arrest and hope they tapout.  Now what are my tactical choices?  I'm on my back and have the proverbial "tiger by the tail".  Chokes?  Where I live, the state considers them deadly force for officers, so can't use any of those to subdue a suspect.
> 
> Based on my experience and what I have seen.  The majority of officers in "ground fights" used wrestling skills: takedown defense, takedowns and positional control to pin the suspect and restrain them.  The other skill that an officer needs is breakfalls, which is better learned in Judo.




Hi Punisher73,
I understand this difficulty that you have reported us. Unfortunately nowadays the justice treats criminals as victims of society. However, on the other hand there is plenty of non-lethal and less harmful jiu-jitsu technique. To subdue the opponent without hurting him, we need  to control the space and make the right gripe (1) which has been improved by the bjj and nowadays the are  doing by Americans Combatives. 
In terms of lethality, a suplex can lead the thieves to death or not,  expends unnecessarily energy (2).

1-  




2-


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 2, 2018)

CoachRonald said:


> The most modern hand to hand system _American combatives_ is based on BJJ that embrace all grappling techniques that works in a chalanging atmosphere in which all styles are put under fire by having their techniques  tested in their combat efectiveness.


This actually isnt true. A couple minutes ago, i created a style called KD combatives, which focuses around one kick, call the "defense kick", which looks like a side kick. We embrace it in a challenging atmosphere where the technique is put to the test. Still, i would recommend kempo, kenpo, sambo, judo, kali over it. Even though its more modern. Turns out that im crap at creating styles, and even if its true that its more modern, and tested in a challenging atmosphere, if everyone practices it then it only proves its effective against itself.


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## CoachRonald (Jul 2, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I was an officer in the '80's and '90's so I understand thinks are a little different now. Even 30 years ago there was nothing Martial in the "ideal" LE confrontation and that was drilled into us in defensive training and legal/courtroom training. Standing takedowns and submissions were practiced the most, all ending with the assailant on their back. We were drilled to wait for backup when possible. Unfortunately, we live(d) in a small town and sometimes there was only one officer on duty. That changed the dynamic quite and bit and ,of course, the approach. It was a time before everything was live on video so that was seldom a concern. Still, my endgame was getting the cuffs on as quickly as possible, before any added mental escalation took place whenever possible. Leave them no room to consider whether you are in control or not. Standoffs are a very bad idea.



Nice experience buddy.


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## CB Jones (Jul 2, 2018)

CoachRonald said:


> less harmful



Less Harmful??????

Nope...they got 2 choices...the easy way or the *more* harmful way!


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## CoachRonald (Jul 2, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Less Harmful??????
> 
> Nope...they got 2 choices...the easy way or the *more* harmful way!



Hi CB Jones,

Except  survival situations the duty usually requires to be moderated. That's the problem set for Punisher 73 related to the difficulty in choosing an appropriate technique.


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## dvcochran (Jul 2, 2018)

CoachRonald said:


> Of course. It would be the rule, but in spite of the specialization, the wrestling and judo training are characterized by unnecessary movements, energetically irrationals. On the other hand JJ optmized some of these techniques by adpting them to a different scenario as it can be verifyed in the ADCC turnaments. Regarding this video, it's common among the new schools. However, even though it seems ugly and ridiculous, it's not expected a non JJ practionner to survive, once get into the guard.


I am pretty sure there were no guns, knives or other weapons in you ADCC turnaments?.


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## CoachRonald (Jul 2, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I am pretty sure there were no guns, knives or other weapons in you ADCC turnaments?.



From my part,  I've never gone armed to any turnament and believe  people dont usually do  it in  hand  to  hand, sporting  contexts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 2, 2018)

CoachRonald said:


> Hi dears comrades,
> 
> Nowadays everybody seems to be aware  of the importance of  BJJ being part of the  routine  of training. There are many  reasons  to  become  adept,  but in the  case of  military  and law eforcement  officers it  seems like there was a remaining doubt if it is an appropriated way to become  able  to  defend one self and reach  the  best preparedness as  a training program enables.  So here are some  good reasons I would like to share with  all of you guys that still hesitate.
> 
> ...


Okay, that seems to be the same non-communicative video you posted on the other thread.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 2, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> That clip NEVER gets old.


Yeah, I kinda hope that jitser is getting royalties somewhere.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 2, 2018)

CoachRonald said:


> Of course. It would be the rule, but in spite of the specialization, the wrestling and judo training are characterized by unnecessary movements, energetically irrationals. On the other hand JJ optmized some of these techniques by adpting them to a different scenario as it can be verifyed in the ADCC turnaments. Regarding this video, it's common among the new schools. However, even though it seems ugly and ridiculous, it's not expected a non JJ practionner to survive, once get into the guard.


While I'm a big fan of BJJ's groundwork, I'm not a fan of putting it on a pedestal. BJJ is not inherently superior to wrestling by efficiency - that's a person-by-person issue.


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## JR 137 (Jul 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> While I'm a big fan of BJJ's groundwork, I'm not a fan of putting it on a pedestal. BJJ is not inherently superior to wrestling by efficiency - that's a person-by-person issue.


Both have a lot to learn from each other.  Wrestling teaches takedowns, throws, and really keeping the intensity high.  BJJ teaches submission, chokes, and I’m assuming patience.

One thing most wrestlers aren’t is patient.  2 minute periods don’t leave much time to let you work for position.  You can, but nothing like the BJJ I’ve seen.  If you see a waiting game in wrestling, it’s typically done when a guy totally outclasses his opponent and is just looking for more mat time to stay sharp.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> BJJ is not inherently superior to wrestling by efficiency - that's a person-by-person issue.


You have to have take down skill before you can apply your ground skill. For police officers, the take down skill is more important than the ground skill.


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## JR 137 (Jul 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You have to have take down skill before you can apply your ground skill. For police officers, the take down skill is more important than the ground skill.


I’m not a LEO, but I don’t see that as correct - the takedown skill more important than the ground skill.  Once they’ve got them to the ground, they need to keep control if they’re going to hold them until backup arrives, and especially if they’re going to handcuff them.

I’d assume both skills are equally important.


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## drop bear (Jul 2, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’m not a LEO, but I don’t see that as correct - the takedown skill more important than the ground skill.  Once they’ve got them to the ground, they need to keep control if they’re going to hold them until backup arrives, and especially if they’re going to handcuff them.
> 
> I’d assume both skills are equally important.



And it is not even as cut and dried as that.

So for example. Wrestling has better arm isolations and two on one control. Which have a few practical benefits like standing restraints and weapon defence.


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## punisher73 (Jul 3, 2018)

CoachRonald said:


> Hi Punisher73,
> I understand this difficulty that you have reported us. Unfortunately nowadays the justice treats criminals as victims of society. However, on the other hand there is plenty of non-lethal and less harmful jiu-jitsu technique. To subdue the opponent without hurting him, we need  to control the space and make the right gripe (1) which has been improved by the bjj and nowadays the are  doing by Americans Combatives.
> In terms of lethality, a suplex can lead the thieves to death or not,  expends unnecessarily energy (2).
> 
> ...



What "less harmful JJ techniques" are there?  I have only been exposed/seen submissions and chokes, both are a no-no in many states for LEO's unless it is a deadly force situation.

Also, the main question of the thread was should LEO's train BJJ.  When it was pointed out that wrestling would probably be more beneficial for the time and what an officer faces you altered on about "American Combatives" and how that incorporated wrestling and Judo grips etc. which was more beneficial.


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## dvcochran (Jul 3, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Both have a lot to learn from each other.  Wrestling teaches takedowns, throws, and really keeping the intensity high.  BJJ teaches submission, chokes, and I’m assuming patience.
> 
> One thing most wrestlers aren’t is patient.  2 minute periods don’t leave much time to let you work for position.  You can, but nothing like the BJJ I’ve seen.  If you see a waiting game in wrestling, it’s typically done when a guy totally outclasses his opponent and is just looking for more mat time to stay sharp.


I wrestled in high school and I remember it being a Long 2 minutes. You are always in a push/pull or straining. You make a very good point about BJJ ending things quickly after you get to the ground.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 3, 2018)

CoachRonald said:


> in spite of the specialization, the wrestling and judo training are characterized by unnecessary movements, energetically irrationals. On the other hand JJ optmized some of these techniques by adpting them to a different scenario as it can be verifyed in the ADCC turnaments.


Speaking as a black belt BJJ instructor who is trying to improve my wrestling and Judo skill, I have to strongly disagree with this. Judo and wrestling are both just as technical as BJJ. The difference in training approaches tends to be the result of different competition rule sets.

A grappler who wants to be able to apply their skill in a real world context (self-defense or law enforcement) would do well to explore the mindset of all three approaches.


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## PiedmontChun (Jul 3, 2018)

Wrestling and BJJ both would be good skillsets to have for LEO. Some experience in both would be even better.
After a BJJ student has basics under their belt and they start to make their BJJ their own, you see some become really good guard players that excel at being on the bottom. You see others who have a really good offensive top game - different sides to the same coin, in a way. They both have merits, but the top player who can takedown, control, pin, and submit someone without ever putting their back on the ground is a huge asset to have in encounters LEOs might face, I would think.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To spend training time in the following skill will not be able to help any law enforcement officers.


In fairness, this is not exactly typical of even sport-focused BJJ schools. Even BJJ practitioners mostly find it funny. The individual in that clip was just having some fun within the confines of the tournament rules. (I also understand that he won the match via submission shortly after the end of the time shown in the clip.)


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 3, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Both have a lot to learn from each other. Wrestling teaches takedowns, throws, and really keeping the intensity high. BJJ teaches submission, chokes, and I’m assuming patience.


To my mind, BJJ, wrestling, Judo, Sambo, and related arts are just different facets of the same gem. They all come down to understanding base, posture, structure, force vectors, and leverage and using them to manipulate an opponent's body while keeping the opponent from doing the same in return. The variance in training mindset and application come down to differences in culture and/or competition rules. The underlying principles are (IMO) more important than the differences. (Although it's worth exploring the differences, since they illustrate how a principle may apply in difference contexts.)


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## JR 137 (Jul 3, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> To my mind, BJJ, wrestling, Judo, Sambo, and related arts are just different facets of the same gem. They all come down to understanding base, posture, structure, force vectors, and leverage and using them to manipulate an opponent's body while keeping the opponent from doing the same in return. The variance in training mindset and application come down to differences in culture and/or competition rules. The underlying principles are (IMO) more important than the differences. (Although it's worth exploring the differences, since they illustrate how a principle may apply in difference contexts.)


Excellent points and post.  I know very little of the others beside wrestling; all I know is what I’ve seen in various videos and conversations with practitioners.

From everything I’ve seen, the core principles are exactly the same (as you articulately pointed out).  The differences that are outright seen are more of a tweak for competition rules and/or specialization of a skill subset.  Barring competition rules, what works in one art will pretty much work in all of them, all things being equal.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> To my mind, BJJ, wrestling, Judo, Sambo, and related arts are just different facets of the same gem. They all come down to understanding base, posture, structure, force vectors, and leverage and using them to manipulate an opponent's body while keeping the opponent from doing the same in return. The variance in training mindset and application come down to differences in culture and/or competition rules. The underlying principles are (IMO) more important than the differences. (Although it's worth exploring the differences, since they illustrate how a principle may apply in difference contexts.)


With my meager Judo background, passing familiarity with BJJ, and the fact that I've heard of both Sambo and wrestling, I can say authoritatively that you are correct.


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## JR 137 (Jul 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> With my meager Judo background, passing familiarity with BJJ, and the fact that I've heard of both Sambo and wrestling, I can say authoritatively that you are correct.


With my wrestling experience, my one night of open mat judo, talking to a few friends who do BJJ, and two former wrestlers who train BJJ... I concur.


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## CoachRonald (Jul 3, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> What "less harmful JJ techniques" are there?  I have only been exposed/seen submissions and chokes, both are a no-no in many states for LEO's unless it is a deadly force situation.
> 
> Also, the main question of the thread was should LEO's train BJJ.  When it was pointed out that wrestling would probably be more beneficial for the time and what an officer faces you altered on about "American Combatives" and how that incorporated wrestling and Judo grips etc. which was more beneficial.




There are as many less injuring techniques as the motional possibilities of BJJ. According Blanton [1], American Combatives is not a hand to hand system oriented to taking downs like Sambo/Systema, but essentially to developing the ground fighting skills being inspired on BJJ. In the atmosphere of hand to hand combat, regardless of some techiniques are verified in more than one system like judo, sambo and wrestling, the efectiveness is not the same, since it's conditioned by the dynamics along wich the techiniques are improved. This is not an empirical reality but a scientific datum. Take a look at Osipov et al's paper. The results showed the implications of the  ground work skills deficit. 

 - HAND TO HAND COMBATIVES IN THE US ARMY

http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ada511484

- Strategic-tactical optimization in hand-to-hand combat: the mastery of grappling as a determining factor in encounters

Publishers Panel


*- Analysis level of the special proficiency of cadets and officers of the Internal Affairs authorities of the Russian Federation to the physical interdictory effort by criminals*

*Analysis level of the special proficiency of cadets and officers of the Internal Affairs authorities of the Russian Federation to the physical interdictory effort by criminals | SibFU*


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## punisher73 (Jul 3, 2018)

CoachRonald said:


> There are as many less injuring techniques as the motional possibilities of BJJ. According Blanton [1], American Combatives is not a hand to hand system oriented to taking downs like Sambo/Systema, but essentially to developing the ground fighting skills being inspired on BJJ. In the atmosphere of hand to hand combat, regardless of some techiniques are verified in more than one system like judo, sambo and wrestling, the efectiveness is not the same, since it's conditioned by the dynamics along wich the techiniques are improved. This is not an empirical reality but a scientific datum. Take a look at Osipov et al's paper. The results showed the implications of the  ground work skills deficit.
> 
> - HAND TO HAND COMBATIVES IN THE US ARMY
> 
> ...



First, you never have stated or named any of the less injuring techniques.

Second, the H2H Comabtives study you posted concluded that grappling was not the best for soldiers in the battlefield and was too ground focused and needed to add in striking.  It emphasized that going to the ground was the last place a soldier wanted to be, but that was the entire premise of the MACP that the Army taught.  As a side note, the US Army Rangers were the first to bring in BJJ for training and they were open that it had nothing to do with combat fighting, but had to do with developing mental toughness and struggling against a resisting opponent with lower risk of injury in training.

In the second study you posted, it talked about grappling in a combat sport environment.  I don't think anyone here would deny the need for BJJ based skills if you are competing in MMA.

You have repeatedly failed to show why LEO's NEED BJJ as opposed to basic wrestling skills taught.


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## drop bear (Jul 3, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> First, you never have stated or named any of the less injuring techniques.
> 
> Second, the H2H Comabtives study you posted concluded that grappling was not the best for soldiers in the battlefield and was too ground focused and needed to add in striking.  It emphasized that going to the ground was the last place a soldier wanted to be, but that was the entire premise of the MACP that the Army taught.  As a side note, the US Army Rangers were the first to bring in BJJ for training and they were open that it had nothing to do with combat fighting, but had to do with developing mental toughness and struggling against a resisting opponent with lower risk of injury in training.
> 
> ...



A lot of the advantage of recommending BJJ for police is its consistency. You can move around. Drop in to a BJJ school and it will be more likely to good than bad.

And although i think there are elements that are not the best progression for police. The methods do work.

Same reason I ride a KLR pretty much. It is just that reliable known quantity for someone who may not really understand what he is buying.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 3, 2018)

drop bear said:


> A lot of the advantage of recommending BJJ for police is its consistency. You can move around. Drop in to a BJJ school and it will be more likely to good than bad.
> 
> And although i think there are elements that are not the best progression for police. The methods do work.
> 
> Same reason I ride a KLR pretty much. It is just that reliable known quantity for someone who may not really understand what he is buying.


That said, I would bet the same thing for judo and wrestling. IMO the reason for that consistency is the continuous testing from competition, which is just as popular for judo and wrestling.


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## CB Jones (Jul 3, 2018)

IMO, LEOs have their defensive tactics which should be their primary system due to it being supported by departmental P&P and is developed with firearm retention and handcuffing position in mind.

But

Both JJ and Other grappling and striking systems are beneficial to learn for when those tactics break down.  Also, so that LEOs can recognize and understand tactics being used against them.

Just more tools for your toolbox.


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## JR 137 (Jul 3, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> IMO, LEOs have their defensive tactics which should be their primary system due to it being supported by departmental P&P and is developed with firearm retention and handcuffing position in mind.
> 
> But
> 
> ...


And to keep you sharp.  How often is DT training conducted?   Not nearly as much as one could get into the dojo.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> That said, I would bet the same thing for judo and wrestling. IMO the reason for that consistency is the continuous testing from competition, which is just as popular for judo and wrestling.



Not as prolific here by the way.


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 3, 2018)

While lots of the technical issues have been brought up by others, I'm seeing a major fallacy here.  When we look at military hand-to-hand training and compare it to law enforcement -- the comparison doesn't work.  In brief (we've discussed this at length in many threads...), military H2H exists for 2 primary purposes: developing esprit/warrior courage/fighting mindset, and to provide options in the rare instance where everything has gone wrong and the soldier is unarmed.  Law enforcement hands-on skills are essential and will be used and tested, almost routinely.  Soldiers start with guns, and go unarmed only if necessary; cops generally start with hands-on and escalate as needed.  That's why cops carry less-lethal options (batons, OC, Taser) while few soldiers really do.  There's been a minor change in the recent past, as soldiers in peacekeeping roles find themselves in more police-like activities -- but it's far from a complete mindset.

BJJ has a lot of good things, and one thing that I will give the Gracie's a ton of credit for is that they are willing to listen and adjust, almost on the fly.  (There's a story that one of them was demonstrating something, and a cop pointed out it doesn't work with a real gunbelt on -- so they got a gunbelt, tried it, discovered they couldn't move that way, and adjusted what they were teaching the next day.)  But so do many other options, including completely art-independent approaches.  The reality is that when you develop a DT program, you have to keep in mind the reality that cops have limited training time, seldom spend a lot of time reinforcing DT skills, so the skills taught have to be able to be learned quickly, meet liability concerns as well as safety issues on both sides, be able to escalate or de-escalate force options as needed, and be remembered for years with little practice...  It's a tall order.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> IMO, LEOs have their defensive tactics which should be their primary system due to it being supported by departmental P&P and is developed with firearm retention and handcuffing position in mind.
> 
> But
> 
> ...



Depends if defensive tactics actually works though. Which it doesn't have to. Because you have to do it regardless. And the people who assess the course are the people who teach the course.

Sorry still not a fan.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Not as prolific here by the way.


Oh? Is competition not as common in Judo and wrestling there? That's unexpected.


----------



## CB Jones (Jul 3, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Depends if defensive tactics actually works though. Which it doesn't have to. Because you have to do it regardless. And the people who assess the course are the people who teach the course.



Well...They are used everyday all over the country and have proven to work for the majority of hands on work.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Oh? Is competition not as common in Judo and wrestling there? That's unexpected.



Nah. All BJJ pretty much. And most of the industry guys BJJ as well. And that is mostly because it is there. so that becomes their point of reference. The BJJ guys can wrap dudes up in real time so everyone just does BJJ.

And You can take your rankings to other schools. Which helps here due to police getting transfered all over the state.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Nah. All BJJ pretty much. And most of the industry guys BJJ as well. And that is mostly because it is there. so that becomes their point of reference. The BJJ guys can wrap dudes up in real time so everyone just does BJJ.
> 
> And You can take your rankings to other schools. Which helps here due to police getting transfered all over the state.


So, Judo and wrestling just aren't very common there, at all?


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Well...They are used everyday all over the country and have proven to work for the majority of hands on work.



According to the industry trainers who asses such things. And how do they asses these things? Well they ask the experts. Who just happen to be industry trainers. Who agree that the system is proven to work.

Mate I did PPCT. Tried it on real live people. It didn't work.

The next course. (forced by the way. not my choice) got canned by my instructor. Who had less martial arts experience and less time in the job. About my lack of cares given about the whole shambling mess that was the course.

And his response was the industry standard. That using the system with your head on the line does not qualify someone to have an opinion on that system. Only being an instructor in that system would allow someone to be able to judge if the system actually works.

And of course it was proven effective every day by thousands of people that were not here at the moment. In incidents that were not in evidence anywhere. And if I wanted to pass the course and therefore keep my licence I had better just shut up about it.

So I did. And gritted my teeth through the shambles. And then went out on my own volition and trained in a system that might actually give me some results.

Which is why we have 4 cops training BJJ and wrestling with us. And not doing the industry standard.

Which is why police around the world go on their own time to these external classes.

Now this is not saying an industry standard training can't be any good. But I would not expect it to be good.

All of this is not my problem to fix. And it is not only my opinion. This is what I hear as standard. And If the game of defensive tactics isn't well regarded. Then it is the job of defensive tactics to either sepparate themselves as a cut above the average. Or live with the fact that it is a course designed to pass a certificate in order to mitigate liability. Not a course designed to pass on practical knowledge.

And while I am on a rant here. Can I point out I did a certificate of instruction the other day on how to blow up a baloon. Yeah. Industry training.

High levels of dissatisfaction.
EmeraldInsight

Victorian police don't like theirs.
Heraldsun.com.au | Subscribe to the Herald Sun for exclusive stories

Industry experts say suck it up buttercup.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> So, Judo and wrestling just aren't very common there, at all?



We dont do it in school. We play football instead. And swim.


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## CB Jones (Jul 3, 2018)

@drop bear 

You still have to have a standardized basic DT system for liability reasons and basic training.  Handcuffing techniques, Search and Pat down techniques, escort positions, basic takedowns techniques, etc...  The majority of times when hands need to be placed on someone...Basic Defensive Tactics are sufficient and also provides protection from civil suits.

I agree the BJJ is good for when those tactics aren't enough.....but typically for liability reasons its good to use your basic certified Defensive tactics if you can.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jul 3, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> That said, I would bet the same thing for judo and wrestling. IMO the reason for that consistency is the continuous testing from competition, which is just as popular for judo and wrestling.


One downside to wrestling is that it isn’t readily available in its purest form to adult hobbyists in most places. The vast majority of wrestling is done by kids in school, with the higher levels (collegiate or international competition) available to people who grew up wrestling in school.

Thanks to the popularity of MMA, you can now often find wrestling classes in MMA gyms (and sometimes BJJ academies), but it tends to be a subset of the art relevant to a MMA/BJJ context.


----------



## Steve (Jul 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Oh? Is competition not as common in Judo and wrestling there? That's unexpected.


Wrestling is a lot harder to do as an adult, even in the USA.  While every high school and middle school has a wrestling team, I can’t think of one wrestling club for adults.   BJJ is all over the place, and Judo isn’t too hard to find.


----------



## Steve (Jul 3, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> One downside to wrestling is that it isn’t readily available in its purest form to adult hobbyists in most places. The vast majority of wrestling is done by kids in school, with the higher levels (collegiate or international competition) available to people who grew up wrestling in school.
> 
> Thanks to the popularity of MMA, you can now often find wrestling classes in MMA gyms (and sometimes BJJ academies), but it tends to be a subset of the art relevant to a MMA/BJJ context.


If I had read to the end, I would have been able to save myself a post.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> @drop bear
> 
> You still have to have a standardized basic DT system for liability reasons and basic training.  Handcuffing techniques, Search and Pat down techniques, escort positions, basic takedowns techniques, etc...  The majority of times when hands need to be placed on someone...Basic Defensive Tactics are sufficient and also provides protection from civil suits.
> 
> I agree the BJJ is good for when those tactics aren't enough.....but typically for liability reasons its good to use your basic certified Defensive tactics if you can.



For liability reasons it is better to be heroically hurt. Than to hurt someone else or just have the right set up in the first place. Because it is generally cheaper.


----------



## Buka (Jul 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Depends if defensive tactics actually works though. Which it doesn't have to. Because you have to do it regardless. And the people who assess the course are the people who teach the course.
> 
> Sorry still not a fan.



Dude, what? The people who assess the course....WTF are you talking about? We're talking people's lives here, working the streets. Those are the people _assessing_.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 4, 2018)

Buka said:


> Dude, what? The people who assess the course....WTF are you talking about? We're talking people's lives here, working the streets. Those are the people _assessing_.



Oh so the people who actually attend the course have a say in how it is run?

Not the instructors.


----------



## punisher73 (Jul 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Oh so the people who actually attend the course have a say in how it is run?
> 
> Not the instructors.



In the case of PPCT, "yes".  The go by field experience of what officers are using or not using and what isn't working properly and take it out or adjust it.

What didn't work for you in PPCT?  I have trouble believing that punching or heel palming them to the face or solar plexus and a muay thai style roundhouse kick don't work.  How do elbows not work?  How does the front push kick from Muay Thai not work? Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (Sleeper hold)?  I will admit that if all you were taught was pressure points, then most times it doesn't and wasn't designed to work outside of a non-combative person.

That being said, I wouldn't say that it is "complete" by any means.  But, it gives a good solid base to start from if officers actually practice and develop their skills with it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> According to the industry trainers who asses such things. And how do they asses these things? Well they ask the experts. Who just happen to be industry trainers. Who agree that the system is proven to work.
> 
> Mate I did PPCT. Tried it on real live people. It didn't work.
> 
> ...


Even if the industry training was always good, you'd still find folks training outside it. Why? Because the standard, required training is too short. That's not a failing of the training, though.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> We dont do it in school. We play football instead. And swim.


Other sports are more dominant here in the US (US football, soccer, baseball, basketball), but wrestling is still (as far as I know) among the fairly standard sports to be found in high schools. I've never seen Judo in grade school, though it does exist at the college level to some extent.


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 4, 2018)

Steve said:


> Wrestling is a lot harder to do as an adult, even in the USA.  While every high school and middle school has a wrestling team, I can’t think of one wrestling club for adults.   BJJ is all over the place, and Judo isn’t too hard to find.


There are a lot of wrestling clubs for adults.  They’re not nearly as common as MA, but they’re out there.  They typically consist of off-season college wrestlers and ex-college wrestlers.

If you’ve got a local college with a wrestling team, you’ve probably got an wrestling club somewhere.  I’ve noticed a lot of wrestling clubs that cater to high school students have a smaller adults group too.  

Wrestling’s popularity is a bit regional, so could make it harder to find.  Wrestling’s biggest areas are the Midwest and probably the Northeast.  It’s like hockey and lacrosse in a sense.


----------



## CoachRonald (Jul 4, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> First, you never have stated or named any of the less injuring techniques.
> 
> Second, the H2H Comabtives study you posted concluded that grappling was not the best for soldiers in the battlefield and was too ground focused and needed to add in striking.  It emphasized that going to the ground was the last place a soldier wanted to be, but that was the entire premise of the MACP that the Army taught.  As a side note, the US Army Rangers were the first to bring in BJJ for training and they were open that it had nothing to do with combat fighting, but had to do with developing mental toughness and struggling against a resisting opponent with lower risk of injury in training.
> 
> ...


 
Dear punisher123

 Except  those techniques that are already  forbidden  by modality rules in high level for their high idexes of injuries,  the allowed ones  if applied in  moderated way have low harmufulness. Obviously it requires control in dosing the force applied in the blow execution,  but as an advantage of BJJ that enables sparrings at high intensity it comes naturally with practice. If you become able to applied a hold or submission in a training partner without  hurt him capting the time of his tapping   you'll able to apply a submission to the opponent on the street. Jiu Jitsu is soft art but it requires hard training,  good attendence like all sports. However,  in terms of time of practice to reach  this science of control the intensity of the blows and having a global vision of bjj as software art it take more time as the witness of majority athletes  of MMA.

Regarding the paper, a depper reading could bring a better understanding. The main point of the Blanton' paper is the comparison of the  Mordern America  Combatives with other hand to hand system.
He pointed out that  BJJ is the main surce of AC whose dynamic  is orientated to the ground finght. Besides,  according  the official doccument 'strinking is not an efficient way to incapacite the enemy'  and 'chokes was the best way to  ending a fight'. Take a deeper reading. Osipov pointed out the main vulnerabilities presented by LEO were attacks  from the ground so he suggeat the revision of teaching methods. Blanton remarked that main focus of Sambo is take downs techiques. The Osipov et al' sstudy used the sambo turnaments to idetify and quantify the vulnabilities of these cadetes and LEO's. Therefore in the second paper it has been evidenced that not only  in some grappling turnaments the high  level ground fight is an advantage for grappling athleates  but also that the sporting sphere can be used to improve the hand to hand combat system as it has already been used by russian and american  military and LEO.


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## Buka (Jul 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Oh so the people who actually attend the course have a say in how it is run?
> 
> Not the instructors.



And the new people that walk into your training club have a say in how it's run?


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2018)

Buka said:


> And the new people that walk into your training club have a say in how it's run?



If they have the experience that we don't. Of course. 

And we bring in people with experience to change the way we are run.


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Even if the industry training was always good, you'd still find folks training outside it. Why? Because the standard, required training is too short. That's not a failing of the training, though.



Have you ever found industry training any good? In any industry? I will have to print my balloon inflating qualification. As a prime example. And I am sure the person who came up with that one thinks they are saving lives or something.

And if the required training is too short. That is the fault of the training. That is the time someone decided it takes to safely prepare a person to engage in that activity.

Look it doesn't matter. You have to do it. And have to do it the way it is presented. Nobody really has a choice. So it is academic as to whether it is good or bad.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 5, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Have you ever found industry training any good? In any industry? I will have to print my balloon inflating qualification. As a prime example. And I am sure the person who came up with that one thinks they are saving lives or something.
> 
> And if the required training is too short. That is the fault of the training. That is the time someone decided it takes to safely prepare a person to engage in that activity.
> 
> Look it doesn't matter. You have to do it. And have to do it the way it is presented. Nobody really has a choice. So it is academic as to whether it is good or bad.


Training being too short is rarely the fault of training. Someone else (in the case of LEO training, the taxpayer) isn't willing to spend the money. For industry LEO training to be as good as BJJ training, it would have to include paying officers for at least twice-a-week training. That'd be awesome, but pretty expensive. It's like comparing a management training seminar I deliver to my management coaching. The latter will always produce better results (excepting the uncooperative person who refuses to learn and grow), though it's the same person delivering the same principles in both cases. It's not my "fault" the workshop is too short to produce the results of the coaching.

And I'm not sure I see the same distinction you do between "industry" training and other training. Often, outside training is brought inside because it's found (or believed) to be effective. It then becomes part of "industry" training.


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## evan.fedora (Jul 7, 2018)

Any Thoughts about Aikido?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2018)

evan.fedora said:


> Any Thoughts about Aikido?


As it is most often taught, I don't think it's a good art to start with as a foundation for any application outside the dojo. I think it's a very nice "finishing school" (someone else here on MT used that term) for someone who already has a solid foundation, and some of the principles work quite nicely for restraint.


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## FriedRice (Jul 8, 2018)

evan.fedora said:


> Any Thoughts about Aikido?



Law Enforcement is probably 1 of the very few places where Aikido works good in. Because lets face it, when a Cop is in the process of restraining someone with an Aikido wrist lock.....most people will rarely punch the Cop in the face....then follow up with a sweet *** combo, ending with a knee to the head KO once the Cop's slumped over...then run away....because now, a crapload of felony charges has been recorded on dashcam + the wrath of every Police Dept. within 1000 mile radius will be out looking for this guy.  

Or hey, after getting punched in the face once, the Cop can let go of the wrist lock that rarely works IRL and just shoot the guy; as he's carrying **** that are way better than any chopsocky. Aikido by Joe Blow in a bar, prob. = getting punched in the face. 

What's good about Aikido for Cops is that it leaves less marks for the Public Def. to talk about.... as compared to, ie. BJJ where a takedown is probably needed with  the Perp crashing hard into the cement, maybe more than twice. And certainly a lot lesser marks than Boxing.


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## drop bear (Jul 8, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Law Enforcement is probably 1 of the very few places where Aikido works good in. Because lets face it, when a Cop is in the process of restraining someone with an Aikido wrist lock.....most people will rarely punch the Cop in the face....then follow up with a sweet *** combo, ending with a knee to the head KO once the Cop's slumped over...then run away....because now, a crapload of felony charges has been recorded on dashcam + the wrath of every Police Dept. within 1000 mile radius will be out looking for this guy.
> 
> Or hey, after getting punched in the face once, the Cop can let go of the wrist lock that rarely works IRL and just shoot the guy; as he's carrying **** that are way better than any chopsocky. Aikido by Joe Blow in a bar, prob. = getting punched in the face.
> 
> What's good about Aikido for Cops is that it leaves less marks for the Public Def. to talk about.... as compared to, ie. BJJ where a takedown is probably needed with  the Perp crashing hard into the cement, maybe more than twice. And certainly a lot lesser marks than Boxing.



Not really the way you want to go about doing wrist locks. If they can punch you and then you have to shoot them. In theory wrist locks should be about shutting off peoples ability to attack you.

And yes most people approach wrist locks with a punch me invitation.

And yes they are sold as something that will work a lot better than they do.

And yes even done well they are hard to pull off.

But you can raise your odds if you change your order of priorities And approach the standing submission a bit differently.

Now with wrestling especially and BJJ sort of. The standing control work that sets up takedowns also sets up standing restraints. Which gives you more opportunity to hit those wrist locks more safely but also leaves that takedown option or reposition if you don't get the lock.

Which is the method BJJ made famous with their idea of "position before submission"

There are also numbers advantages. But that is another dynamic again.

But yeah. When you go do a course and the instructor thinks it is a case of saying "look a distraction" and then trapping and slapping on a goose neck. You are doing it wrong.


----------



## punisher73 (Jul 9, 2018)

CoachRonald said:


> Dear punisher123
> 
> Except  those techniques that are already  forbidden  by modality rules in high level for their high idexes of injuries,  the allowed ones  if applied in  moderated way have low harmufulness. *Obviously it requires control in dosing the force applied in the blow execution,  but as an advantage of BJJ that enables sparrings at high intensity it comes naturally with practice. If you become able to applied a hold or submission in a training partner without  hurt him capting the time of his tapping   you'll able to apply a submission to the opponent on the street*. Jiu Jitsu is soft art but it requires hard training,  good attendence like all sports. However,  in terms of time of practice to reach  this science of control the intensity of the blows and having a global vision of bjj as software art it take more time as the witness of majority athletes  of MMA.
> 
> ...



That is the main problem right there in bold.  Throw in the attacker is usually drunk, high or mental and they aren't tapping.  They aren't even going to know what tapping is.  You now have three choices in regards to the submission.  1) Keep holding on to it and continue to be at a tactical disadvantage or hope back up is there. 2) Damage the limb as the submission was designed to do. 3) Let go/transition into something else.  BJJ can be a great tool for an officer when it is understood and applied correctly.  But, the way it is being taught and trained isn't the way to do it in most cases.


----------



## CoachRonald (Jul 9, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> That is the main problem right there in bold.  Throw in the attacker is usually drunk, high or mental and they aren't tapping.  They aren't even going to know what tapping is.  You now have three choices in regards to the submission.  1) Keep holding on to it and continue to be at a tactical disadvantage or hope back up is there. 2) Damage the limb as the submission was designed to do. 3) Let go/transition into something else.  BJJ can be a great tool for an officer when it is understood and applied correctly.  But, the way it is being taught and trained isn't the way to do it in most cases.




Regarding the probability of the opponent gives in and accepts the arrestement,  indeed it's not  really expected that he taps so an even more acccurated reflex is required to applying the submissions/holds without either suffering the implications of getting hurt by him or being charged latter.  No doubt that there are many methodological failures that can be verified in Jiu Jitsu schools, even in the old ones, so it's really need to adapt the training system for the combat reality on the streets, as it's been done by one of the corporations mentioned above.


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Not really the way you want to go about doing wrist locks. If they can punch you and then you have to shoot them. In theory wrist locks should be about shutting off peoples ability to attack you.



Only when it's near locked in though. There is time to throw a punch or more than 1, as the wrist lock is being attempted. And if the Perp is fully resisting, then there's def. a lot of opportunities for the Perp to throw punches, knees, elbows, etc.  which is why trying to grab some guy's wrist while he's swinging, is rarely attainable. 

Even with a locked in wrist-lock, someone bigger and stronger can power out of it or even take the pain, or both and continue attacking. 

I've tapped to wrist-locks before, but it was always during Jitsu sparring only and not a full MMA fight and/or street fight, so I didn't have the option of striking with my hands and/or leg while being wrist-locked, so there is a certain level of uncertainty + pain, should it does happen. 

The thing with Cops though is that a wrist-lock is usually the beginning of their escalation of force. They're holding the WL to get cuffs on. They're not just going to WL to set up for an immediate hip throw....which will slam the Perp onto the cement and pretty sure, will break his wrist; among other body parts.  The reason that they're able get hold of the wrist in the 1st place, usually, is b/c the Perp is only, lightly resisting.


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 9, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> That is the main problem right there in bold.  Throw in the attacker is usually drunk, high or mental and they aren't tapping.  They aren't even going to know what tapping is.  You now have three choices in regards to the submission.  1) Keep holding on to it and continue to be at a tactical disadvantage or hope back up is there. 2) Damage the limb as the submission was designed to do. 3) Let go/transition into something else.  BJJ can be a great tool for an officer when it is understood and applied correctly.  But, the way it is being taught and trained isn't the way to do it in most cases.



These are good points. It probably just depends on the scenario. If it was a lone cop vs 1 lone perp in the middle of nowhere w/no one else around, then a BJJ  Blue Belt cop shouldn't have much problems controlling the Perp with BJJ for many rounds before backup arrives. Now if it's the Cop, the Perp + 5 bystanders who may or may not be pro police, then going to the ground is not a good idea.

The weakness of most BJJ gyms is that they're geared mostly towards Sports BJJ, to win tournaments and bringing home medals for gym bragging rights + marketing/promoting. But it still does turns some guy who's training for medals, to be very good at grappling, especially vs. an average guy on the street.

A Cop training Sports BJJ for a year, 3x a week, will be miles and miles better than one that only gets training from their Dept. .....and both are getting this departmental training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Not really the way you want to go about doing wrist locks. If they can punch you and then you have to shoot them. In theory wrist locks should be about shutting off peoples ability to attack you.
> 
> And yes most people approach wrist locks with a punch me invitation.
> 
> ...


Someday I’m stealing that BJJ phrasing. I follow the same principle (the position/control is more important than the finishing technique), and agree that’s key to a lot of standing grappling becoming useful. I would rather see a failed technique that protected position or broke structure than a “successful” one that didn’t.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 9, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Only when it's near locked in though. There is time to throw a punch or more than 1, as the wrist lock is being attempted. And if the Perp is fully resisting, then there's def. a lot of opportunities for the Perp to throw punches, knees, elbows, etc.  which is why trying to grab some guy's wrist while he's swinging, is rarely attainable.
> 
> Even with a locked in wrist-lock, someone bigger and stronger can power out of it or even take the pain, or both and continue attacking.
> 
> ...



Because people go backwards for wrist locks. If a person is actually fighting you. You  don't grab the wrist.

 Secure the head and get the underhook, create an angle, break their posture, straighten out their arm and take the wrist from there. 

All the time you make sure your head is angled so you can use it to wrestle and reduce their ability to hit it.

Otherwise wrist lock positions are essentially arm drags. And arm drags let you take someones back. So if they power out of the wrist lock you take their back and can hang out there pretty safely. If they turn back in double leg them in to the deck and fight on with a bit of gravity. Knee ride, arm bar, wrist lock stand them back up if you want.


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Because people go backwards for wrist locks. If a person is actually fighting you. You  don't grab the wrist.
> 
> Secure the head and get the underhook, create an angle, break their posture, straighten out their arm and take the wrist from there.
> 
> ...



I was referring more towards a Cop's perspective in putting on a wrist lock. I have at least 200 episodes of Cops on my computer, and they would usually  hold the Perp's wrist while telling them everything's going to be ok.....and casually walking behind them.....as they're sneaking in that wrist lock slowly in order to slap the cuffs on.   I don't think I ever saw them just shoot for the wrist when the Perp is using a lot of force to resist. They'd grapple, control in dominant position, then wrist lock...so basically we agree.

While standing wrist locks, often taught by SD schools, are usually BS. They usually require that the other guy give them his wrist or grab the SD Instructor's wrist = a mistake, which is usually what's required to pull of a WL.


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## CB Jones (Jul 9, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I have at least 200 episodes of Cops on my computer, and they would usually hold the Perp's wrist while telling them everything's going to be ok.....and casually walking behind them..



That's called the compliant escort position and its one of the main foundations of Defensive Tactics.  It is supposed to put you in position to perform an arm bar takedown into a prone cuffing position if they resist.


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## jks9199 (Jul 9, 2018)

evan.fedora said:


> Any Thoughts about Aikido?


There are two big problems with aikido for law enforcement:
1.  Many if not most aikido programs in the US (at least) are not functional in mindset; they're often "hippy dippy"...
2. To be effective, it takes too much time and training and consistent practice.


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## punisher73 (Jul 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Because people go backwards for wrist locks. If a person is actually fighting you. You  don't grab the wrist.
> 
> Secure the head and get the underhook, create an angle, break their posture, straighten out their arm and take the wrist from there.
> 
> ...



In most use of force continuum policies I have seen, a wrist lock is performed for lower levels of force where the subject is not actively trying to hurt the officer, and is used to regain control so the situation does not escalate further.  I have used the transport wrist lock (goose neck) several times in this manner.  One of the things I have seen many officers do is NOT being able to transition to your idea of an arm drag or other tactic to control their structure or posture if the force escalates quickly and they are still stuck on the idea of a wrist lock without any setup and wonder why the technique "doesn't work".


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I was referring more towards a Cop's perspective in putting on a wrist lock. I have at least 200 episodes of Cops on my computer, and they would usually  hold the Perp's wrist while telling them everything's going to be ok.....and casually walking behind them.....as they're sneaking in that wrist lock slowly in order to slap the cuffs on.   I don't think I ever saw them just shoot for the wrist when the Perp is using a lot of force to resist. They'd grapple, control in dominant position, then wrist lock...so basically we agree.
> 
> While standing wrist locks, often taught by SD schools, are usually BS. They usually require that the other guy give them his wrist or grab the SD Instructor's wrist = a mistake, which is usually what's required to pull of a WL.


That's the starting position for learning the mechanics of the lock. Unfortunately, I've seen too few schools that progress beyond that point.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> In most use of force continuum policies I have seen, a wrist lock is performed for lower levels of force where the subject is not actively trying to hurt the officer, and is used to regain control so the situation does not escalate further.  I have used the transport wrist lock (goose neck) several times in this manner.  One of the things I have seen many officers do is NOT being able to transition to your idea of an arm drag or other tactic to control their structure or posture if the force escalates quickly and they are still stuck on the idea of a wrist lock without any setup and wonder why the technique "doesn't work".


And, of course, that's not unique to cops. I have to work hard to break students of that mentality. In even semi-realistic drills, I fail more techniques than I succeed at, and that's my expectation. I just learn to recognize the failure early and move on to something that's more available. Where students (and cops) get in trouble is when they feel like moving to the next technique is "quitting" on the one you started.


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## drop bear (Jul 10, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> In most use of force continuum policies I have seen, a wrist lock is performed for lower levels of force where the subject is not actively trying to hurt the officer, and is used to regain control so the situation does not escalate further.  I have used the transport wrist lock (goose neck) several times in this manner.  One of the things I have seen many officers do is NOT being able to transition to your idea of an arm drag or other tactic to control their structure or posture if the force escalates quickly and they are still stuck on the idea of a wrist lock without any setup and wonder why the technique "doesn't work".



Cos they are not trained effectively. 

People think the technical wrist lock is the most important part of performing a wrist lock. Which is a common mistake.


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## drop bear (Jul 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> And, of course, that's not unique to cops. I have to work hard to break students of that mentality. In even semi-realistic drills, I fail more techniques than I succeed at, and that's my expectation. I just learn to recognize the failure early and move on to something that's more available. Where students (and cops) get in trouble is when they feel like moving to the next technique is "quitting" on the one you started.



The kit dale concept of timing vs technique, static drills vs realistic timing drills.

People train these concepts wrong and so train these flaws in.


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## drop bear (Jul 10, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I was referring more towards a Cop's perspective in putting on a wrist lock. I have at least 200 episodes of Cops on my computer, and they would usually  hold the Perp's wrist while telling them everything's going to be ok.....and casually walking behind them.....as they're sneaking in that wrist lock slowly in order to slap the cuffs on.   I don't think I ever saw them just shoot for the wrist when the Perp is using a lot of force to resist. They'd grapple, control in dominant position, then wrist lock...so basically we agree.
> 
> While standing wrist locks, often taught by SD schools, are usually BS. They usually require that the other guy give them his wrist or grab the SD Instructor's wrist = a mistake, which is usually what's required to pull of a WL.



It is mostly trained wrong by the wrong people. The people who do wrist locks don't generally have the fundamental skills needed. The people with the fundamental skills don't do wrist locks.

I have mentioned this before with eye gouges. You will be a better eye gouge specialist if you learn to box.

There is a whole series of concepts that work with the escort position. Done by guys who can actually perform it on resisting oponants.











Of course they never hit standing wrist locks so it is a dimension they dont chase.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The kit dale concept of timing vs technique, static drills vs realistic timing drills.
> 
> People train these concepts wrong and so train these flaws in.


There’s some good food for thought in that, man.


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## CB Jones (Jul 10, 2018)

Wristlocks are more for escorting compliant people.

In my experience, with resistant or assaultive people going straight for the shoulder and taking them down or knocking them off balance and then driving them into a wall is much better. 

Kinda like this.






This way I have some control of an arm to work toward handcuffing.


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## FriedRice (Jul 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> It is mostly trained wrong by the wrong people. The people who do wrist locks don't generally have the fundamental skills needed. The people with the fundamental skills don't do wrist locks.
> 
> I have mentioned this before with eye gouges. You will be a better eye gouge specialist if you learn to box.
> 
> ...




Yea if you're in a fight/grapple, then this is better...but from a Cop's POV, he's usually trying to keep things chilled while trying to sneak the cuffs on the Perp....which seems to be the main go-to move that they do on the TV show, Cops. The Cops would keep talking nicely to the Perp while holding their wrist, and sneakily trying to gradually get behind them while increasing pressure on the wrist to turn it into a lock. The Cop's not going to go right into a full arm drag right away unless he feel significant resistance.


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## punisher73 (Jul 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Cos they are not trained effectively.
> 
> People think the technical wrist lock is the most important part of performing a wrist lock. Which is a common mistake.



As to their training, its a different type of officer now on the street.  When I started this job over 20 years ago, you could ask a group of new officers in the academy "who has ever been in a fight?" and it was almost 100% of their hands raised.  Now, when we ask that question, sometimes there are NO hands going up in the air.  They have no reference point of violence or fighting outside of what they see on TV in many cases.  Now couple that with VERY limited training time and there is still no reference point, no matter what an instructor says about tactics and techniques.  But, I do agree with you that for the most part, cops do not get the adequate training that they need to do the job safely and effectively.  Teach an officer how to fight/restrain/subdue a person properly and excessive force claims are going to go WAY down.

As my instructor has talked about many times.  When you start your training, your fear/threat bar is very high.  Its new and unknown, so there is that high level of fear about what to do, am I going to get hurt etc.  The more training and experience I have, the lower that goes as I get used to those unknowns because I have dealt with them before.  I don't revert to worst case scenario ideas every time.  Anyways, I digress....


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 11, 2018)

what about verbal BJJ?  That would be very effective.  (sorry i couldn't resist)


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## drop bear (Jul 11, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> As to their training, its a different type of officer now on the street.  When I started this job over 20 years ago, you could ask a group of new officers in the academy "who has ever been in a fight?" and it was almost 100% of their hands raised.  Now, when we ask that question, sometimes there are NO hands going up in the air.  They have no reference point of violence or fighting outside of what they see on TV in many cases.  Now couple that with VERY limited training time and there is still no reference point, no matter what an instructor says about tactics and techniques.  But, I do agree with you that for the most part, cops do not get the adequate training that they need to do the job safely and effectively.  Teach an officer how to fight/restrain/subdue a person properly and excessive force claims are going to go WAY down.
> 
> As my instructor has talked about many times.  When you start your training, your fear/threat bar is very high.  Its new and unknown, so there is that high level of fear about what to do, am I going to get hurt etc.  The more training and experience I have, the lower that goes as I get used to those unknowns because I have dealt with them before.  I don't revert to worst case scenario ideas every time.  Anyways, I digress....



My bench mark was MMA. If I threw someone in to a ring fight with the same training cops get. I probably should get sued for negligence.

There is some sort of disconnect there.


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## drop bear (Jul 11, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Yea if you're in a fight/grapple, then this is better...but from a Cop's POV, he's usually trying to keep things chilled while trying to sneak the cuffs on the Perp....which seems to be the main go-to move that they do on the TV show, Cops. The Cops would keep talking nicely to the Perp while holding their wrist, and sneakily trying to gradually get behind them while increasing pressure on the wrist to turn it into a lock. The Cop's not going to go right into a full arm drag right away unless he feel significant resistance.



Arm drags are pretty benign done slowly. Two on one can be used to stabilize an old or drunk person.

Yes there is more than one speed. 

Handcuffing is the same as arm bars conceptually. You still have to get that arm away from the body.


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## drop bear (Jul 11, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Wristlocks are more for escorting compliant people.
> 
> In my experience, with resistant or assaultive people going straight for the shoulder and taking them down or knocking them off balance and then driving them into a wall is much better.
> 
> ...



Yeah. The reenforced underhook or beef Wellington. This is also a go to for me with restraints.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Arm drags are pretty benign done slowly. Two on one can be used to stabilize an old or drunk person.
> 
> Yes there is more than one speed.
> 
> Handcuffing is the same as arm bars conceptually. You still have to get that arm away from the body.


And behind the plane, if you don't want to fight their strength.

I teach the entrance to a standing (doesn't have to end that way) arm bar as a variation on an arm drag. That way, if the arm starts to bend, you've still got a really handy arm drag to use while you're getting to something else.


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## CB Jones (Jul 11, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Yea if you're in a fight/grapple, then this is better...but from a Cop's POV, he's usually trying to keep things chilled while trying to sneak the cuffs on the Perp....which seems to be the main go-to move that they do on the TV show, Cops. The Cops would keep talking nicely to the Perp while holding their wrist, and sneakily trying to gradually get behind them while increasing pressure on the wrist to turn it into a lock. The Cop's not going to go right into a full arm drag right away unless he feel significant resistance.



The old days of trying to sneak cuffs on are over.  That way their is no confusion and you have a stronger case for resisting. 

Most train some type of Ask, Tell, Force....

Ask---- Sir, you are under arrest, please turn around and put your hands behind your back.  (no response)

Tell ---- Sir, Turn around and put your hands behind your back.  (no response)

Force---- Grab wrist and upper arm and physically turn them and while pulling arm behind their back for handcuffing.  (Resist)

Takedown into prone position for handcuffing.


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## FriedRice (Jul 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Arm drags are pretty benign done slowly. Two on one can be used to stabilize an old or drunk person.
> 
> Yes there is more than one speed.
> 
> Handcuffing is the same as arm bars conceptually. You still have to get that arm away from the body.



I guess a standing kimura would be pretty easy, but it doesn't seem like the average Cop aren't even good at this. Which goes back to the main question and that the answer would be yes, Cops should train BJJ as it would get them used to all this due to the heavy sparring.

Wrestling would probably be better than BJJ, but I'm not sure that the average Cop would be handle a Wrestling program....they're going to get wrecked, worse than beginners BJJ.


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## drop bear (Jul 12, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I guess a standing kimura would be pretty easy, but it doesn't seem like the average Cop aren't even good at this. Which goes back to the main question and that the answer would be yes, Cops should train BJJ as it would get them used to all this due to the heavy sparring.
> 
> Wrestling would probably be better than BJJ, but I'm not sure that the average Cop would be handle a Wrestling program....they're going to get wrecked, worse than beginners BJJ.



catch wrestling.


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## CB Jones (Jul 12, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I guess a standing kimura would be pretty easy, but it doesn't seem like the average Cop aren't even good at this. Which goes back to the main question and that the answer would be yes, Cops should train BJJ as it would get them used to all this due to the heavy sparring.
> 
> Wrestling would probably be better than BJJ, but I'm not sure that the average Cop would be handle a Wrestling program....they're going to get wrecked, worse than beginners BJJ.



Unless I’m looking at it wrong....a Kimura is problematic when it comes to weapon retention.  

Now with two or more officers....Kimuras work well for getting the persons hands behind their back for handcuffing.


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## drop bear (Jul 12, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Unless I’m looking at it wrong....a Kimura is problematic when it comes to weapon retention.
> 
> Now with two or more officers....Kimuras work well for getting the persons hands behind their back for handcuffing.



Hammerlock. Standing kimura the guy flips all over the place. But same concept pretty much. 

I have tried the kimura depending on where my arms were at the time. But mostly for two on one.


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## punisher73 (Jul 13, 2018)

Rat said:


> what about verbal BJJ?  That would be very effective.  (sorry i couldn't resist)



I would guess it would be very much like the "Verbal Judo" programs taught to officers, but you can only do it while laying down.


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## CB Jones (Jul 13, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Hammerlock. Standing kimura the guy flips all over the place. But same concept pretty much.
> 
> I have tried the kimura depending on where my arms were at the time. But mostly for two on one.



The hammerlock and beef wellington are my main techniques I use.  Really like those techniques.

Also from behind, full nelsons work great for putting guys up against the wall for pat downs...makes it hard and/or impossible for them to draw a weapon.


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## drop bear (Jul 13, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> The hammerlock and beef wellington are my main techniques I use.  Really like those techniques.
> 
> Also from behind, full nelsons work great for putting guys up against the wall for pat downs...makes it hard and/or impossible for them to draw a weapon.



There is a double overhook from behind that  I use for that kind of thing. I call it the chick lock. Because it restrains people without having to touch their boobies.

And I can get a hand free while securing both of theirs.


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## lansao (Jul 18, 2018)

So that while the officer is rolling around on the ground with the perp, the perp’s friend can remove his side arm.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 18, 2018)

lansao said:


> So that while the officer is rolling around on the ground with the perp, the perp’s friend can remove his side arm.


If he's on the ground, BJJ is probably a good bet for avoiding that happening. And cops stand a reasonable chance of being on the ground from time to time.


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## lansao (Jul 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If he's on the ground, BJJ is probably a good bet for avoiding that happening. And cops stand a reasonable chance of being on the ground from time to time.



That’s fair. Was a stupid pot shot


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## jks9199 (Jul 18, 2018)

drop bear said:


> My bench mark was MMA. If I threw someone in to a ring fight with the same training cops get. I probably should get sued for negligence.
> 
> There is some sort of disconnect there.


No, there's no disconnect -- because a ring fight is not the same as taking someone into custody, nor is it the same as fighting for your life.

But that's a road we've traveled, and a horse that's been beaten sufficiently.  To spare it more suffering, let's just agree to disagree...


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## drop bear (Jul 18, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> No, there's no disconnect -- because a ring fight is not the same as taking someone into custody, nor is it the same as fighting for your life.
> 
> But that's a road we've traveled, and a horse that's been beaten sufficiently.  To spare it more suffering, let's just agree to disagree...



OK. So its easier which is why you don't need as much preparation?

Because if you are trying to suggest it is harder or has more risk. Then there is a pretty big disconnect.


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## drop bear (Jul 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If he's on the ground, BJJ is probably a good bet for avoiding that happening. And cops stand a reasonable chance of being on the ground from time to time.



And you still have to solve the problem in front of you before you solve the potential problems.


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## TMA17 (Jul 19, 2018)

I think one of the best systems a LEO could learn is Krav Maga.  A good Israeli Krav Maga school will give you a well rounded dose of useful techniques from various arts.  Philly Police started training in it.  IMO, you're not going to find a better balance of useful techniques, including weapons training, than a good Krav Maga program.  Of course, good conditioning goes a long way too. 

Philly police get advanced training to avoid use of deadly force


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