# How many students does it take to...? (Financial question)



## skribs (Oct 2, 2021)

I might be opening my own school sometime in the next few years.  I know there's an old joke, "The best way to make a small fortune in martial arts, is to start with a large fortune and open a school."  I know there's probably more truth to that joke than I'd like.  My question is simple:

*At your school, how many students does it take to:*

Break even?
Make a decent living?
Make a *good *living?
For example, if the expenses are $5K per month, and you charge $100 per student per month, then 50 students is $5K per month (break even), 100 students is $10K per month ($5K profit), and 150 students is $15K per month ($10K profit).  5K/month is 60K/year, which is a decent living where I live.  10K/month is 120K/year, which is a very good living.  I don't need to see your costs and monthly tuition rates (and personally don't think you *should *post those), but if you could post as:

50 students = break even
100 students = decent living
150 students = good living
The reason I'm asking is I want to get an idea of what's typical.  I know it will vary by my specific location, both in terms of what the costs are and what I can competitively charge my students.  But if I have an idea of how many students I will need, it can help me make a few decisions, such as:

Do I want to do this as a side gig and try and break even, or make it my primary source of income?  (Or scrap the idea and start over in a new art so I can be a student again)
How do I want to design my curriculum; do I need to be efficient with class time, or can I have supplemental classes like deep-dives and electives?


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 2, 2021)

skribs said:


> I might be opening my own school sometime in the next few years.  I know there's an old joke, "The best way to make a small fortune in martial arts, is to start with a large fortune and open a school."  I know there's probably more truth to that joke than I'd like.  My question is simple:
> 
> *At your school, how many students does it take to:*
> 
> ...


Take a couple of business classes at your local community college.  Even better if they have a sports business class.  That'll give you a much better chance at having the knowledge to be successful.  And you might consider looking into some of the more turnkey franchise programs, like Premier Martial Arts.  You've got the martial arts side, and they provide the business stuff.


----------



## MadMartigan (Oct 2, 2021)

From what I've seen, there are 2 kinds of schools that can support an instructor full time.
- Schools with massive kids programs (where your after school daycare/babysitting pays the bills and refers new students into your MA programs);
- Competitive coaching gyms. Places that fighters/athletes go to for training to go pro mma or Olympics. 

My personal thought is if your interest or style of teaching does not fall into 1 of those categories; your best fit will likely be a part time recreational school. 

As for #s, I'd say 100 studentswould be a minimum... supplemented by camps, after school programs, equipment/merchandise sales, etc. 

As jks9199 said above, a business course would be invaluable before putting your livelihood up as collateral for a new business venture. In lieu of that, at least singing up for one of the many MA coaching companies that provide advertising materials, billing programs, and other supports to run the school as a business.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 2, 2021)

There are other ways to approach it, by keeping overhead low.  I am teaching in a city park, which means I need to pay a small fee to the city for each class session that I have.  I also have liability insurance, and name the City as additional insured.  I charge per session, not monthly.  Basically, I need about 3-5 students to break even, if they are all attending regularly, once a week.  With more sessions per week, I might break even with 2-3 students.  But that is unrealistic, as people tend to have other obligations in life that cause them to miss a session here and there.  

We train outdoors which is good, except during bad weather.  But here in Northern California, it is still feasible year-round, we train under a picnic shelter when it rains.  Bad air conditions during the wildfires can also be problematic.

since I don’t have a fixed location with a sign out, my visibility is lower and don’t attract as many students.  But I like the low profile.  If you want it to grow, need to have good advertising and marketing skills to get the word out.  

but it’s nice to think that break-even is at about 5 students.  That’s a whole lot better, in my mind, than 50 or 100.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> There are other ways to approach it, by keeping overhead low.  I am teaching in a city park, which means I need to pay a small fee to the city for each class session that I have.  I also have liability insurance, and name the City as additional insured.  I charge per session, not monthly.  Basically, I need about 3-5 students to break even, if they are all attending regularly, once a week.  With more sessions per week, I might break even with 2-3 students.  But that is unrealistic, as people tend to have other obligations in life that cause them to miss a session here and there.
> 
> We train outdoors which is good, except during bad weather.  But here in Northern California, it is still feasible year-round, we train under a picnic shelter when it rains.  Bad air conditions during the wildfires can also be problematic.
> 
> ...


This is pretty much how my program was (and hopefullly will be again). I never owned or leased a space. I was either paying nothing (first place just wanted a program in place), paying a percentage (second place), or just letting the school keep what was coming in (third place). In all cases, my only real costs were insurance and any gear I wanted to buy.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 2, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> This is pretty much how my program was (and hopefullly will be again). I never owned or leased a space. I was either paying nothing (first place just wanted a program in place), paying a percentage (second place), or just letting the school keep what was coming in (third place). In all cases, my only real costs were insurance and any gear I wanted to buy.


Yeah, I also put up a website, printed some business cards, got a business license from the city, publishing a fictitious business name.  Those are simple start-up costs but not very heavy.  The big thing is, not paying rent and heat and water and electric and insurance on the building.


----------



## Buka (Oct 2, 2021)

A wise man wrote today.....

_"The best way to make a small fortune in martial arts, is to start with a large fortune and open a school."_


----------



## WaterGal (Oct 2, 2021)

Your expenses will really depend on your local area (how high the rent is), and how many FTE employees you have (and what wages are like in your area). Payroll and rent are really the biggest expenses for a martial arts school. There's also marketing, office supplies, utilities, credit card processing fees, and so forth, but off the top of my head, payroll (including salary for Mr WaterGal and myself) and rent make up at least 2/3 of our budget. Some costs will vary based on how many students you have, while others will be relatively fixed.

If you can start with a small, inexpensive space, and design your curriculum and enrollment process so that you don't need to hire any employees for a while, this will help you to get to making a living more quickly. Keep in mind that "teaching class" is only a third to half of the actual work of running a martial arts school - there's also marketing, sales, bookkeeping, customer service, cleaning, maintaining the facility, managing staff or volunteers, developing lesson plans, recording processes, etc etc. Budget time for that stuff.

We're in a high cost of living area, so for us, I think, raising prices and getting up to 120 students was around the point where we started making a decent living between the two of us and could hire about 0.5 FTE of part-time help (that is, we have a couple of part-timers that collectively work about 20 hours per week). We're not at 150 students yet, but we're on track to be within the next few months. I suspect we'll need more like 170 students to be making a "good" living.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 2, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> Take a couple of business classes at your local community college.  Even better if they have a sports business class.  That'll give you a much better chance at having the knowledge to be successful.  And you might consider looking into some of the more turnkey franchise programs, like Premier Martial Arts.  You've got the martial arts side, and they provide the business stuff.


Fully agree with the exception of a sports management program. They more teach you how to run and athletic program which results in making money for someone else.


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 2, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Fully agree with the exception of a sports management program. They more teach you how to run and athletic program which results in making money for someone else.


That's why I specified business, not management.  But thanks for pointing out the difference.  Sports BUSINESS classes are hard to find.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 2, 2021)

skribs said:


> I might be opening my own school sometime in the next few years.  I know there's an old joke, "The best way to make a small fortune in martial arts, is to start with a large fortune and open a school."  I know there's probably more truth to that joke than I'd like.  My question is simple:
> 
> *At your school, how many students does it take to:*
> 
> ...


I am going to be that guy and give you an indirect answer. 
But first some Big questions:
Of the 5k monthly expense estimate how much is going toward rent? 
What is the national cost of living scale where you will rent?
If 2/3’s of that is for rent you are better off purchasing. I will explain. 
Why be the slave when you can be the master?

My first school was/is in a strip mall. Don’t make that bigger than it is. It is a 4-unit complex that I was able to purchase after the school had been there about six months. But the wheels of purchase were set in motion about a year before opening the school. 
By starting out with a 30 year variable mortgage , the payment was less than any spot I could rent of equal size in a comparable area. I converted to a fixed 15 year 3 years later and paid it off in less than 10. 
Using a rough pen, 2 rented units pay the bills. Especially with the consistent change in the “martial arts as a business” landscape, it allows for maintainability of a commercial size Dojang that I could not see having any other way. 
And here is a salient point; I do not believe it would matter what service industry it is. As long as the product is not costing you money it can stay viable. 
I don’t ever remember doing the “per student” financial evaluation since it hasn’t been needed but your number will only be relevant to your input/output situation. It is pretty hard for me to picture a commercial school of big enough to support the student numbers you talked about without some way to offset the initial deficits. Yes, that can be working another full time job but that surely changes the dynamic. 

Now, for some realities you will need to embrace:
You need to either take a really good business MANAGEMENT class (not sports management), get experience from your work, or have a good, trustworthy mentor. No shame in the latter and it has paid huge dividends to me for years. He has helped me make all my big financial decisions. 

Expect to spend more on marketing than rent in the beginning. 

Expect to take a loss or make little to no money for 3-years. This is how you have to plan you finances (most people anyway). IF you do it right you will far out pace the 3 year timeframe. 

Don’t be afraid to sublet in the beginning. 


One of the biggest changes I have seen through the years is what people perceive to be a “nice” gym.  Gone are the days of the old sweat boxes. When people pay for a service they want the whole enchilada. And I think that is within reason. This means you must plan and design your Dojang for what works now and that can expand/modify in the future. And teaching classes will be less than 50% of the job. 
This is another area visiting as many schools as possible has great value. 

If you can show us an actual budget it would give us all great points to talk around. Would also need to see some comps on rentals in the area and then see what is for sale in your area.


----------



## skribs (Oct 2, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> There are other ways to approach it, by keeping overhead low.  I am teaching in a city park, which means I need to pay a small fee to the city for each class session that I have.  I also have liability insurance, and name the City as additional insured.  I charge per session, not monthly.  Basically, I need about 3-5 students to break even, if they are all attending regularly, once a week.  With more sessions per week, I might break even with 2-3 students.  But that is unrealistic, as people tend to have other obligations in life that cause them to miss a session here and there.
> 
> We train outdoors which is good, except during bad weather.  But here in Northern California, it is still feasible year-round, we train under a picnic shelter when it rains.  Bad air conditions during the wildfires can also be problematic.
> 
> ...


This is something I considered.  However, I was told by several people that where I'm planning on going, it's too hot for too much of the year to work out in the park.

Those people are:  my sister and brother-in-law (who went to school for sports medicine, and live where I'm planning on opening my school), my parents (who are 2nd and 3rd degree black belts, and also live where I'm planning on opening my school), and one of my fellow students at my school (who is a 4th degree black belt, and used to live where I'm planning on opening my school)


WaterGal said:


> Your expenses will really depend on your local area (how high the rent is), and how many FTE employees you have (and what wages are like in your area). Payroll and rent are really the biggest expenses for a martial arts school. There's also marketing, office supplies, utilities, credit card processing fees, and so forth, but off the top of my head, payroll (including salary for Mr WaterGal and myself) and rent make up at least 2/3 of our budget. Some costs will vary based on how many students you have, while others will be relatively fixed.
> 
> If you can start with a small, inexpensive space, and design your curriculum and enrollment process so that you don't need to hire any employees for a while, this will help you to get to making a living more quickly. Keep in mind that "teaching class" is only a third to half of the actual work of running a martial arts school - there's also marketing, sales, bookkeeping, customer service, cleaning, maintaining the facility, managing staff or volunteers, developing lesson plans, recording processes, etc etc. Budget time for that stuff.
> 
> We're in a high cost of living area, so for us, I think, raising prices and getting up to 120 students was around the point where we started making a decent living between the two of us and could hire about 0.5 FTE of part-time help (that is, we have a couple of part-timers that collectively work about 20 hours per week). We're not at 150 students yet, but we're on track to be within the next few months. I suspect we'll need more like 170 students to be making a "good" living.


This is all kind of along the lines of what I've been thinking.  I've been looking at leases where I'm planning on moving, and it's like..."maybe I'll just join a school."  It is nice knowing that if I can afford that, I can probably afford everything else.

Regarding time spent - some of that will depend on whether I start off aggressive by opening a school right away, or if I take an intermediate route and start off teaching a class at a community center.  However, if I'm doing that, then I think some of my fancier options for a curriculum go out the window.


----------



## skribs (Oct 2, 2021)

@dvcochran 

If I under stand you correctly, you're suggesting something along the lines of:  Buy a building that has 4 units in it.  Use 1 unit to teach, and rent the other three out to pay for my mortgage.  Is that correct?

Buying isn't something I've considered.  When I've been looking in the area I'll be moving to, the 7-figure price tags on the spaces for sale have turned me off.  Right now, that area is going through a huge growth spurt.  Property prices are skyrocketing right now.  (That's one of two reasons I haven't given specifics about my budget).  I'm also a little bit concerned with the extra work of managing rental properties.

It is something I'll consider.  It does go in line with one of my plans which is: win the lottery, and then buy some land on which to build my dream dojang.

The two reasons I'm not getting more specific about my budget are:

The prices where I'm looking at going are pretty volatile right now, so any analysis we do today will be wrong in 3 months, let alone before I move
Privacy


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 2, 2021)

skribs said:


> I might be opening my own school sometime in the next few years.  I know there's an old joke, "The best way to make a small fortune in martial arts, is to start with a large fortune and open a school."  I know there's probably more truth to that joke than I'd like.  My question is simple:
> 
> *At your school, how many students does it take to:*
> 
> ...



There will be fixed costs and variable costs within a range and total unknown variable costs. 

Fixed costs:
Rent / Mortgage
Insurance

Variable within a range
Energy / Lights and heating - will vary form month to month and will vary form season to season depending upon lots of things. 

Variable Total Unknown. 
Equipment costs
If you buy lots of one size one may never sell enough of that size to break even on that order. 
One may have to order in small amounts before the Monthly dues are posted.  
So some costs for minimal supplies on hand and cash available to address orders as required. 

Also, the industry is cyclical, and one should understand that they may need to take monies from the good months to cover the bad months. 

To do it properly, one should review the costs of the previous tenant for their expenses. 
One should also create the maximum number of students they can support in the size available. 
This will be the maximum at one time. 
Use this number with unique classes to determine an upper limit of a perfect world of income. 
Then add up all the expenses for each month.
If the perfect income does not exceed the total (yearly) Monthly expenses, then stop there. 
..
After you have your yearly target of expenses, figure out how many students you will need in the good months to meet that. 
Then project ( do research manually on other schools on how many they get in the off months ) and see how their delta from good to bad is, and apply it to yours. 
After that step then calculate the income for the bad months. 
Compare it to your monthly expectation for expenses. 
If the income exceeds your expenses then GREAT!
If not then figure our how short you are over the bad months. figure out if it is three or four or X months. 
Take that shortage for say four month , total it up. Divide it by 8 months the good months and this is the value you add to the expenses to the good months. 
...
Now if the good months average income exceed the new calculated expenses to cover the bad months you have to determine if that breaks even or gets by or can live off of. 
.
.
.
Also note: If this story problem gives one a headache and makes one hate Math more than one already does, then maybe they will need to have someone who handles the numbers.  If a spouse and they already work make sure they  understand one's expectations. 
if someone outside of one's immediate circle then this cost needs to be added into the expenses. 
..
Good Luck and best wishes.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 2, 2021)

Boy, it's tough now to open a new school.  Hard to attract prospects when the market is more or less saturated with other schools.  Not being a growth industry with many people excited about getting in on the "new MA craze," (Bruce who?) getting people in is difficult.  That said, here's a few thoughts regarding a commercial school:

Subletting a non-competing space to teach out of is an option, until you have a loyal group that will follow you into a stand-alone spot.

Rent is the biggest cost by far, so must be your first consideration.  This will be the main factor in how many students you will need to break even. Get a cheap spot (with no winos sleeping or begging on the sidewalk) to start and gradually furnish it. May not attract some people at first (there are other selling points, though.)

Great visibility for signage with good walk and drive-by traffic is worth _hundreds of dollars_ in marketing every month.

Gaining an excited and committed core of students _ASAP_ is critical.  They will do a lot of marketing for you using social media to their friends.  I think the best age group to target to maximize this is the 14-24 yrs segment. 

Excite and motivate that first crop.  These are the most important students you will have (business-wise and MA student wise.)

Getting people in by any ethical means possible and ASAP may mean offering that first crop an amazing deal.  Don't think of it as losing money, but as gaining a marketing crew.

Good luck!


----------



## skribs (Oct 3, 2021)

Rich Parsons said:


> Energy / Lights and heating - will vary form month to month and will vary form season to season depending upon lots of things.


Where I'm planning on moving, it's more like Energy / Lights and Cooling.


Rich Parsons said:


> One should also create the maximum number of students they can support in the size available.
> This will be the maximum at one time.
> Use this number with unique classes to determine an upper limit of a perfect world of income.


This is part of the reason for the question.  I've actually got two different ideas for the overall structure of the school.  One is a comprehensive curriculum that teaches everything I want to teach.  

The other is more experimental (at least for my art) - a core curriculum that touches on everything I want to teach, with elective classes that deep-dive into different aspects of the art.  For example, one might be a focus on forms, another a focus on point sparring, and another focused on self-defense (practical applications of the striking and mix in some Hapkido).

However, my estimate is that doing this will probably limit my potential student body size by around 50%, because half the classes would be core classes and half the classes would be electives.  This is based on a hypothetical schedule of doing core classes M-W and electives T-Th, with make-up classes for each on Friday-Saturday.  I could instead do core classes M-Th and elective classes F-Sat, but then you're only doing those once a week, and I feel like that would be difficult to keep up on.

I'm getting kind of off-topic, so I don't want this to be the focus of the thread.  But this is why I'm asking.  I have two ideas.  One idea is probably less profitable than the other, but that's fine as long as I'm profitable enough.  If I can't make a living on it, then it's a non-starter, and I should just drop the plan.


Rich Parsons said:


> Also note: If this story problem gives one a headache and makes one hate Math more than one already does, then maybe they will need to have someone who handles the numbers. If a spouse and they already work make sure they understand one's expectations.
> if someone outside of one's immediate circle then this cost needs to be added into the expenses.


My favorite part of video games is spreadsheets.  I do spreadsheets for pretty much every game I play.  I don't have a problem at all with this level of math.  My problems are:

Not knowing what all of the variables are
Not knowing what is a reasonable number for some of the variables
Not knowing what will be a reasonable number for the other variables by the time I am ready to open a school


----------



## skribs (Oct 3, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Boy, it's tough now to open a new school. Hard to attract prospects when the market is more or less saturated with other schools. Not being a growth industry with many people excited about getting in on the "new MA craze," (Bruce who?) getting people in is difficult. That said, here's a few thoughts regarding a commercial school:


My family lives in the area I'm moving to.  They say there's plenty of demand for martial arts schools down there.  Whether that demand is still there when I move is another question.

My current school has no problem getting new students right now.  Part of that may be because we're already established (and my Master does have a lot of credentials I won't when I'm ready to open mine, such as higher ranks in more arts, and Special Forces experience).  However, we're at a point where we've had to take measures to reduce the size of the beginner class.  It used to be that our first four belts had these classes:

4-7 White + Yellow
8 - 12 White + Yellow
Kids Purple + Orange
13+ White -> Orange
Now, the kids classes are 4-7 White, 8-12 White, and then Kids Yellow -> Orange; and the adult class is 13+ White + Yellow, with the Purple + Orange belts going to the adult advanced class.  Even with that, we're at a point where all of our white belt classes are packed.

I think there may be even more demand now that kids have been locked up with their parents for over a year.  Parents want them to get exercise and learn discipline.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 3, 2021)

skribs said:


> The other is more experimental (at least for my art) - a core curriculum that touches on everything I want to teach, with elective classes that deep-dive into different aspects of the art. For example, one might be a focus on forms, another a focus on point sparring, and another focused on self-defense (practical applications of the striking and mix in some Hapkido).


Good idea that would appeal to students with different goals and give everyone what they want.  Sort of like having a major in karate with a minor in a more specialized area of the students' choice.


skribs said:


> My current school has no problem getting new students right now. Part of that may be because we're already established (and my Master does have a lot of credentials I won't


That's a good sign.  I don't think the credential issue is major, although the hard core self-defense types would appreciate the Special Forces background of the instructor.  Still, the personality of the instructor as far as confidence and sincerity is what counts most.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 3, 2021)

skribs said:


> Where I'm planning on moving, it's more like Energy / Lights and Cooling.
> 
> This is part of the reason for the question.  I've actually got two different ideas for the overall structure of the school.  One is a comprehensive curriculum that teaches everything I want to teach.
> 
> ...






skribs said:


> My problems are:






skribs said:


> Not knowing what all of the variables are


Well I did research in an area a few years ago to see if it made sense. 
First search all the local schools. See how much competition there is. 
Second call and ask the landlords of those locations what the rent is. 
Third, ask them if they could provide estimates for energy usage from others in the area. 
Note: You may need to have a cover story as many will not talk to you for a direct competition for which you are after the details not the location. 

Create those spreadsheets and tabs and track the costs . 



skribs said:


> Not knowing what is a reasonable number for some of the variables


See above for those reasonable values 
Ask the location site you are at. 
Talk to other store owners and say you  are looking to rent and are curious about the cost for heating and cooling. 
Note: End units with more exposed walls may cost more. 



skribs said:


> Not knowing what will be a reasonable number for the other variables by the time I am ready to open a school



Yes, staying current will require data update. 
Easy way is to look at local Inflation rate. If 2-4% you add 5% per year to adjust for other unknown costs for your estimate.


----------



## skribs (Oct 4, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Good idea that would appeal to students with different goals and give everyone what they want. Sort of like having a major in karate with a minor in a more specialized area of the students' choice.


That was the idea.  Of course, there are a few cons...

Reduced potential student body size
Difficulty balancing wildly different electives in terms of what a credit is
Difficulty balancing electives in terms of likely participation (I'm guessing the forms class would be very low participation)


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 4, 2021)

skribs said:


> That was the idea.  Of course, there are a few cons...
> 
> Reduced potential student body size
> Difficulty balancing wildly different electives in terms of what a credit is
> Difficulty balancing electives in terms of likely participation (I'm guessing the forms class would be very low participation)


Skribs,

I still think you are looking at the business model wrong. 
Ask yourself: "how can I make enough money to support my hobby/passion". If we are all being honest this is what training in the MA's is. Right? Converting this hobby/passion into a profitable venture is very, very tough. Unless you fully look at it as a business venture and Fully leverage this approach it just doesn't happen, unless you are a trust fund kid. Often times 'going big' is the best move, which is what I have tried to describe. 

You have been given a ton of very good information. There is a LOT of work to do when moving into a new, unknown business area and I feel this increases the risk of failure. Source out the local Chamber of Commerce or whatever economic resources are available in the area for business data. Unabashedly meet with business & building owners to determine expense stats. Go to the local schools. See what they are doing. Find out what they charge and how they are structured on payment. Learn. 
I get the feeling you are still confined in the box of your current school. Reach, expand, grow. Get out and see what the rest of the MA world is doing. 
This does Not mean leaving your current school as a student. This in now way means there is anything wrong with your current school; clearly it is a large school so something is working. That said, what can you learn from your current school, OFF the mat? Get in the office and learn what is going on behind the scenes. 

Make a plan. Plan the plan. Execute the plan. This is always fluid and I am certain there is much you can already do. You say you are a spreadsheet so get to work. If you are willing it would be great to share this as a talking point.


----------



## Christopher Adamchek (Oct 4, 2021)

Other ways to keep costs down 
- partner with martial arts place (that is different enough from yours) use their off hours 
- partner with a non martial arts place such as community center, dance hall, yoga studio, school gym using their off hours 
- partner with a kids organization such as boys and girls club or YMCA, teach kids class on their time, and adults off hours
- Utilize outdoor parks 
- Get a house with large basement or garage = private dojo 
- make the jump to a public dojo once you already have several committed students 

Ive used all of these and more to break even and turn a small profit with several students


----------



## Steve (Oct 4, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I am going to be that guy and give you an indirect answer.
> But first some Big questions:
> Of the 5k monthly expense estimate how much is going toward rent?
> What is the national cost of living scale where you will rent?
> ...


This is great advice if you can get the loan.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2021)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> Other ways to keep costs down
> - partner with martial arts place (that is different enough from yours) use their off hours
> - partner with a non martial arts place such as community center, dance hall, yoga studio, school gym using their off hours
> - partner with a kids organization such as boys and girls club or YMCA, teach kids class on their time, and adults off hours
> ...


If you teach out of your own home, including basement, garage, or yard, be very careful because it likely will void your homeowners insurance.  I researched this extensively a couple years back.  Homeowners insurance providers do not like teaching martial arts at the home.  Even if you have separate liability coverage for teaching, the homeowners insurance providers will not tolerate it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2021)

skribs said:


> *At your school, how many students does it take to:*
> 
> Break even?
> Make a decent living?
> Make a *good *living?


1. Break Even?  Start by keeping your cost low and take advantage of other possible income outlets that your school can take advantage of.  If you don't have enough students to pay for building or office rent then don't get one.  Your biggest challenge is going to be Covid.  So anything you do will need to factor in Covid.  For example, what if you can't have in-person classes?  How will your school continue to generate income.  If you have a physical school then you may want your school to have outdoor space in which to practice.  

Who will be your students.  This is also important.  Some school thrive on younger students (kids)  other schools focus more on older students.  Things like this will factor into your Break Even. 

2. Make a decent living?  Have a job other than Martial Arts Instructor.  Especially now with Covid.  Either that or embrace Online Martial Arts training, which allows you to reach students beyond your physical location.  Here's something to think about.  50 states make up the US + DC + Puerto Rico +Other US territories.  Now. Say you were to get 5 students in each location.  Then you charge each student $100.  That's how much you would make a month. With an online format.  Easier said than done, but not impossible. You can get that many just form people who want to learn forms but not learn how to fight with MA.  But such a thing will require you to change how you think and feel about the martial arts you train.

3.   Calculate #2


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> Take a couple of business classes at your local community college.  Even better if they have a sports business class.  That'll give you a much better chance at having the knowledge to be successful.  And you might consider looking into some of the more turnkey franchise programs, like Premier Martial Arts.  You've got the martial arts side, and they provide the business stuff.


Either this or let someone run the business. If the Martial Arts teacher is going to run the school then Business Classes are a must.  Martial Arts Ego gets in the way and that person will need to know how to be of 2 mindsets.  The Martial Artist and the Business Person.   The Martial Artist Ego thinks he or she controls everything in the school.  That mindset needs to be destroyed. This is why most martial arts schools go broke or don't make enough money to survive.  The 3 questions asked were all business questions. So the Business Mindset needs to be the driving force for those 3 areas.   

There is a junk yard of Martial Arts schools that have failed because they didn't understand business, or could not switch into that business mindset.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, I also put up a website, printed some business cards, got a business license from the city, publishing a fictitious business name.  Those are simple start-up costs but not very heavy.  The big thing is, not paying rent and heat and water and electric and insurance on the building.


You could probably get a good deal these days for rent, but that could also increase the chances that someone may get Covid as well.  Another thing I've been seeing is that Martial Arts schools are teaming up on rent.  So  you may have 2 schools at one location which is similar to what some of the combat sports gyms have.  Different schools under the same name.  One of the Jow Ga classmates teaches kung fu in a TKD school.  The TKD school is now able to stay in business because it only has to pay half of the physical costs.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Either this or let someone run the business. If the Martial Arts teacher is going to run the school then Business Classes are a must.  Martial Arts Ego gets in the way and that person will need to know how to be of 2 mindsets.  The Martial Artist and the Business Person.   The Martial Artist Ego thinks he or she controls everything in the school.  That mindset needs to be destroyed. This is why most martial arts schools go broke or don't make enough money to survive.  The 3 questions asked were all business questions. So the Business Mindset needs to be the driving force for those 3 areas.
> 
> There is a junk yard of Martial Arts schools that have failed because they didn't understand business, or could not switch into that business mindset.


I'd argue a portion of those failed in spite of the fact the person understood business and had the right mindset - they just weren't equippped to execute. This is especially true on the marketing side. Even if you understand basic marketing, it's difficult to get a gauge on what works in MA, because most MA schools simply parrot what they saw done at their instructor's place, in sort of a shotgun approach to marketing. So it's difficult to find out what really makes the difference between successful and unsuccessful schools.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Even if you understand basic marketing, it's difficult to get a gauge on what works in MA, because most MA schools simply parrot what they saw done at their instructor's place, in sort of a shotgun approach to marketing.


Days of the "shotgun marketing approach" and flyers are long gone.  Those are no longer effective means of advertising unless you have a captive audience like a school full of kids or another group of people, say a church group with younger members, or older depending on the type of martial arts being advertised.

These days when people want to look for something, they do a "google search" or the search engine of their choice.  Before the Internet, flyers on cars was a good way to try to get some local attention, but the marketing changed once the Internet became a reliable source of "Where can I find...."  

When I took Business classes there were no topics or discussions on how important websites are.   When I took marketing classes, there were no topics about online marketing or keywords, or social media.  The only reason I know and understand these things is because I design webpages and do SEO analysis.  I know all of the tricks in things that make online marketing work.  It used to be easier, but now it's a lot of work.  If Online Marketing, SEO Analysis, Keyword Analysis, Social media are strange things in terms of business, then I highly recommend learning how those things works.  Also learn the impact of how they affect businesses.    I would also recommend learning how to do these things even on the lower levels just so you don't get ripped off by people who sale these services.



gpseymour said:


> So it's difficult to find out what really makes the difference between successful and unsuccessful schools.


Mods  Feel free to delete this post if needed.  I'm not trying to promote the school or diss it.  I'm just showing the Marketing Effort

Find a successful school that grows fast enough to open up additional schools.  Take a look at their websites.  What are they talking about?  What are they selling? How much are they selling it for?  What type of events do they do?  Are they teaching the same martial arts that you do?  Are they "stealing" students interested in what you teach?

For example, there was a Choe's Hapkido School that was advertising that they did kung fu. They had it on their website and they had a video of kids in a park swinging around weapons.  To me it looked like neglect. Coming from Chinese system that uses weapon, there is no way we would let kids just swing swords and spears around. To me it was clear that they didn't train in the weapons they were swinging around.  So my teacher then called the school and confront them about their honest.   The reason I bring this up is because things like that can take a person who wants to learn Kung Fu and get them into a Hapkido Class thinking that's what they are learning.  There are schools out there who will do this.

My point is, if you don't market what you do , them someone else will fill that gap for you and it won't always be from a school that trains the same system you do.  I also bring up Choes Hapkido because they do put a lot of effort in Marketing and I can't hate on them for that.  If I hate it, then I need to up my own marketing efforts.

If you look at their kid's martial arts youtube channel  Choes Hapkido Duluth Ga.   You will see that they have separate youtube channels for adults and children and the kids stuff has a lot of testimony and a lot of demos.  They aren't shy to tell the world about what they do. 

In short, "They cast a lot of nets, so they catch a lot of fish." They probably pay a lot for their marketing too.  I probably wouldn't recommend too much of that as there are easy ways to do marketing these days and to get  big results without spending big money.  But it's not possible to get good results without spending any money. 

I personally wouldn't waste the money to print flyers, unless I lived in a small town and it had a shop that people like to visit.  Or unless I could get the flyer in the school system handed out to all the kids. grades 1-12.  But with Covid around.  That probably won't attract as many as it used to.


----------



## WaterGal (Oct 4, 2021)

skribs said:


> @dvcochran
> 
> If I under stand you correctly, you're suggesting something along the lines of:  Buy a building that has 4 units in it.  Use 1 unit to teach, and rent the other three out to pay for my mortgage.  Is that correct?
> 
> ...


Yeah, we're in the same boat. There's not really anything available to buy other than empty lots, and if there were, it would be crazy expensive anyway.

Renting isn't all bad. The landlord takes care of everything outside of our unit (landscaping, snow plowing, trash pickup, etc). Just... know that 3-10 year lease terms are pretty standard for commercial units, and for your first one they'll probably require you to personally guarantee the lease.

Edit: You know, I decided to look on Loopnet just to check, and discovered that our landlord is looking to sell our building. No price listed, but, hmmm.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 4, 2021)

Steve said:


> This is great advice if you can get the loan.


It would definitely be harder moving into a new area not knowing anyone. But try to work close with the seller and banker. There are several ways to purchase, especially in the commercial environment that are not commonly heard of.
On the first strip, a large part of the collateral was offset by a percentage of future profits; which was deferred for 3 years so the was could get past startup.

You just can’t walk in cold to the loan company and say “hey, I think it would be really cool to star a karate school”.


Steve said:


> This is great advice if you can get the loan.


----------



## Steve (Oct 4, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> It would definitely be harder moving into a new area not knowing anyone. But try to work close with the seller and banker. There are several ways to purchase, especially in the commercial environment that are not commonly heard of.
> On the first strip, a large part of the collateral was offset by a percentage of future profits; which was deferred for 3 years so the was could get past startup.
> 
> You just can’t walk in cold to the loan company and say “hey, I think it would be really cool to star a karate school”.


If you’re a vet and you have good credit, there are lots of options, too.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 4, 2021)

Steve said:


> If you’re a vet and you have good credit, there are lots of options, too.


Agree.  I do not know if that applies to Skribs or not. 

I thought I had deleted the post when I realized I had already covered this in a previous quote.


----------



## skribs (Oct 4, 2021)

Steve said:


> If you’re a vet and you have good credit, there are lots of options, too.


Someone once asked who would win between me and my Master.  My response was, "He was Special Forces.  I've played Call of Duty."


dvcochran said:


> It would definitely be harder moving into a new area not knowing anyone. But try to work close with the seller and banker. There are several ways to purchase, especially in the commercial environment that are not commonly heard of.
> On the first strip, a large part of the collateral was offset by a percentage of future profits; which was deferred for 3 years so the was could get past startup.
> 
> You just can’t walk in cold to the loan company and say “hey, I think it would be really cool to star a karate school”.


The good news is my family lives where I'm moving.

I'm honestly way out of my lane on all this real-estate stuff.  I don't see how I would be able to purchase property without being able to afford it before-hand.  Otherwise, wouldn't everyone just do that?  I definitely can't afford a down payment on 7 figures, nor do I have collateral that would get me there.  

I think it's a great suggestion for someone with the acumen to do that.  I just don't think it's me.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2021)

skribs said:


> Someone once asked who would win between me and my Master. My response was, "He was Special Forces. I've played Call of Duty."


Then definitely Call of Duty wins. lol.



skribs said:


> I don't see how I would be able to purchase property without being able to afford it before-hand. Otherwise, wouldn't everyone just do that? I definitely can't afford a down payment on 7 figures, nor do I have collateral that would get me there.


I look at it this way.   Why is the person trying to sell the property.  If he can't find people to rent it, then that should be a big alarm in your mind.  There could be other issues with property that you are unaware of.  It's one thing if you could own the property and rent out space.  I've seen that done as well.  But it's something totally different if you only want to have a martial arts school.  

No you not only have know about leasing commercial space, you have added the extra headache of trying to get someone in that space.  All of that on top of running a martial arts school.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 5, 2021)

skribs said:


> Someone once asked who would win between me and my Master.  My response was, "He was Special Forces.  I've played Call of Duty."
> 
> The good news is my family lives where I'm moving.
> 
> ...


While it sounds like a great idea and perhaps some people have the right combination of luck, timing, resources, connections, and business experience to get it done, I suspect that for most of us it is not realistic.  Maybe down the road a ways it might become possible, but especially for someone who is just getting started, I am skeptical.


----------



## Steve (Oct 5, 2021)

Another option for buying is to consider going in with a partner.  Helps mitigate risk and cost but can come with its own headaches, too.


----------



## crshieh (Oct 5, 2021)

Here I'll give you my answers straight up the way you asked them: Currently teaching out of a community center

1. 30 students to breakeven (includes rent, marketing, and software).  
2. 70 students to decent living.  I'm on average charging around 115 per student, you can do the math.  
3. N/A -> I'll hit capacity around 60-70 in the community center (800 sq ft studio)

My phase 2:
1. 70 students to breakeven
2. 120 to decent living
3. 180 to good living
Max capacity of my own place (2500 - 3000 sq ft) will be around 200-250.  Poissbly 300 if I really push it.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 5, 2021)

crshieh said:


> Here I'll give you my answers straight up the way you asked them: Currently teaching out of a community center
> 
> 1. 30 students to breakeven (includes rent, marketing, and software).
> 2. 70 students to decent living.  I'm on average charging around 115 per student, you can do the math.
> ...


I would love to see the layout of your 2500-3000 sq/ft facility. We struggle running 150-175 in our 2,500 sq/ft locations. Subtract for office, storage room, dressing, bathroom, hallway, and seating area there is about 1,700 sq/ft workout space. One building is truss built so the area is fully open, no columns. Something we have to deal with at the other location.


----------



## WaterGal (Oct 5, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I would love to see the layout of your 2500-3000 sq/ft facility. We struggle running 150-175 in our 2,500 sq/ft locations. Subtract for office, storage room, dressing, bathroom, hallway, and seating area there is about 1,700 sq/ft workout space. One building is truss built so the area is fully open, no columns. Something we have to deal with at the other location.



If you have 1700 sqft mat space, you should be able to have around 35 students per class (50sqft per person per class) without it being very crowded. If each student is attending an average of 3 classes per week, and you have 24 classes per week, the facility should be able to accommodate 280 students. 

Of course, that assumes that every one of your classes are maxed out, which is unlikely. I know right now, for us, our intermediate classes are practically empty because we didn't have a lot of new signups last year, but our advanced classes (people who stuck with us through covid) and beginner classes are very busy. So it's a bit lumpy, but we can't just drop the intermediate classes from the schedule lol.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 5, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> If you have 1700 sqft mat space, you should be able to have around 35 students per class (50sqft per person per class) without it being very crowded. If each student is attending an average of 3 classes per week, and you have 24 classes per week, the facility should be able to accommodate 280 students.
> 
> Of course, that assumes that every one of your classes are maxed out, which is unlikely. I know right now, for us, our intermediate classes are practically empty because we didn't have a lot of new signups last year, but our advanced classes (people who stuck with us through covid) and beginner classes are very busy. So it's a bit lumpy, but we can't just drop the intermediate classes from the schedule lol.


One of my old schools, when they had a similar issue, changed their intermediate class to an intermediate/advanced class. They explained to the advanced students that they can come to the class, but that they'd be working on lower level material to improve it. Not everyone is interested in doing that, so you'd get a few extra students in the intermediate class which lets them have more partners (and also more people to help them), while not becoming overcrowded.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 5, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> If you have 1700 sqft mat space, you should be able to have around 35 students per class (50sqft per person per class) without it being very crowded. If each student is attending an average of 3 classes per week, and you have 24 classes per week, the facility should be able to accommodate 280 students.
> 
> Of course, that assumes that every one of your classes are maxed out, which is unlikely. I know right now, for us, our intermediate classes are practically empty because we didn't have a lot of new signups last year, but our advanced classes (people who stuck with us through covid) and beginner classes are very busy. So it's a bit lumpy, but we can't just drop the intermediate classes from the schedule lol.


You are running more classes/week than we are. I suspect you segregate more (by age/belt) than we do. 
Our lifetime average is 136 students. It ebbs up and down but has really jumped in the las 12 months.
If we have 40ish at the same time (which happens) we are packed. 
Both locations have a knee wall to make the hallway that I have considered removing. This would add about 6' of width the full length of the workout area. But would make it awkward for visitors to get to the bathroom.


----------



## WaterGal (Oct 5, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> You are running more classes/week than we are. I suspect you segregate more (by age/belt) than we do.
> Our lifetime average is 136 students. It ebbs up and down but has really jumped in the las 12 months.
> If we have 40ish at the same time (which happens) we are packed.
> Both locations have a knee wall to make the hallway that I have considered removing. This would add about 6' of width the full length of the workout area. But would make it awkward for visitors to get to the bathroom.


Yeah, running a lot of classes per week is how you manage more students in a small space.


----------



## skribs (Oct 5, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> If you have 1700 sqft mat space, you should be able to have around 35 students per class (50sqft per person per class) without it being very crowded. If each student is attending an average of 3 classes per week, and you have 24 classes per week, the facility should be able to accommodate 280 students.
> 
> Of course, that assumes that every one of your classes are maxed out, which is unlikely. I know right now, for us, our intermediate classes are practically empty because we didn't have a lot of new signups last year, but our advanced classes (people who stuck with us through covid) and beginner classes are very busy. So it's a bit lumpy, but we can't just drop the intermediate classes from the schedule lol.


You can also have a larger student body than your capacity, if a lot of them are flaky with attendance.  Just becomes a little difficult when everyone actually does show up.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 6, 2021)

skribs said:


> You can also have a larger student body than your capacity, if a lot of them are flaky with attendance.  Just becomes a little difficult when everyone actually does show up.


Yes, and that creates other problems. One or two people who are lagging behind in curriculum can slow down the whole class. 
This happens and is handled but the burden is on the instructor(s). Helping people understand the expectation and that it is their responsibility in this situation is important.


----------



## skribs (Oct 6, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, and that creates other problems. One or two people who are lagging behind in curriculum can slow down the whole class.


That happens anyway when everyone shows up, because people learn at a different pace.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 6, 2021)

skribs said:


> Break even?
> Make a decent living?
> Make a *good *living?





skribs said:


> I might be opening my own school sometime in the next few years.  I know there's an old joke, "The best way to make a small fortune in martial arts, is to start with a large fortune and open a school."  I know there's probably more truth to that joke than I'd like.  My question is simple:
> 
> *At your school, how many students does it take to:*
> 
> ...



Question; What dollar amount are you using to define

Break even?
Make a decent living?
Make a good living?


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 6, 2021)

skribs said:


> That happens anyway when everyone shows up, because people learn at a different pace.


Yes. When you have a mixed class, which we always do, it is makes it harder but we believe the rewards are greater in the long run. 
For example, when a white belt only works out with with white belts it is harder to see 'where' you need to be going. Training with all levels allows a person to see the good (and bad) ahead of them. 
Unless you have a Lot of space and BB's or dictate class schedules (which we do not) classes can get chaotic at times. You have to learn how to lead all class dynamics. It can definitely be a challenge at times.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 6, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, running a lot of classes per week is how you manage more students in a small space.


Of course it also assumes that these additional classes are held at a time when people can attend and are not occupied with other obligations, like jobs.  It seems to me that there are certain times of the day when classes are much much more likely to be attended, such as evenings, weekends, and perhaps early mornings, and other times when attendance will likely be minimal or non-existent like during normal business hours (8-6) for most jobs.  In that case, holding more classes does not really help in accommodating more students.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 6, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Question; What dollar amount are you using to define
> 
> Break even?
> Make a decent living?
> Make a good living?


That would vary by location, which I think is why he didn't put numbers. What someone needs to make a decent living in my area is vastly different from, say, Pittsburgh.

Except for "break even", that'd be zero, wouldn't it?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 6, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Yes. When you have a mixed class, which we always do, it is makes it harder but we believe the rewards are greater in the long run.
> For example, when a white belt only works out with with white belts it is harder to see 'where' you need to be going. Training with all levels allows a person to see the good (and bad) ahead of them.
> Unless you have a Lot of space and BB's or dictate class schedules (which we do not) classes can get chaotic at times. You have to learn how to lead all class dynamics. It can definitely be a challenge at times.


They also get better feedback from their training partners in partner drills.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 6, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course it also assumes that these additional classes are held at a time when people can attend and are not occupied with other obligations, like jobs.  It seems to me that there are certain times of the day when classes are much much more likely to be attended, such as evenings, weekends, and perhaps early mornings, and other times when attendance will likely be minimal or non-existent like during normal business hours (8-6) for most jobs.  In that case, holding more classes does not really help in accommodating more students.


The place I trained at the longest had some classes that were just "fillers" for those who needed them, but didn't get the kind of attendance the prime-time classes got. For a while, there was even a 10AM M/W class for a small number of folks who couldn't reliably make it to evening classes.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 6, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course it also assumes that these additional classes are held at a time when people can attend and are not occupied with other obligations, like jobs.  It seems to me that there are certain times of the day when classes are much much more likely to be attended, such as evenings, weekends, and perhaps early mornings, and other times when attendance will likely be minimal or non-existent like during normal business hours (8-6) for most jobs.  In that case, holding more classes does not really help in accommodating more students.


A lot of schools do this, and I hated it. They'd offer classes only between 7pm and later, or early in the morning. For myself (and most other people that work evening or night shifts), until recently that meant the biggest difficulty was just finding a school, of any style or price, within half an hour of where I either lived or worked, that offered even one class a week that fit with my schedule. I'd heard the same issue from a lot of people that I work with, so I get the feeling that if a school advertised that they had classes around noon-2PM, they'd get students for those classes, so long as they advertised well.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 6, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> A lot of schools do this, and I hated it. They'd offer classes only between 7pm and later, or early in the morning. For myself (and most other people that work evening or night shifts), until recently that meant the biggest difficulty was just finding a school, of any style or price, within half an hour of where I either lived or worked, that offered even one class a week that fit with my schedule. I'd heard the same issue from a lot of people that I work with, so I get the feeling that if a school advertised that they had classes around noon-2PM, they'd get students for those classes, so long as they advertised well.


I am sure there are people who could make those classes.  Someone who is self-employed or otherwise works from home and has more control over his/her daily schedule, or a stay-at-home parent who has some time free in the day.  But my point is, I don’t think a school owner can count on those demographics to keep the school solvent.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 6, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I am sure there are people who could make those classes.  Someone who is self-employed or otherwise works from home and has more control over his/her daily schedule, or a stay-at-home parent who has some time free in the day.  But my point is, I don’t think a school owner can count on those demographics to keep the school solvent.


Not on its own. But I think that could be a big source of revenue a lot of schools don't (or can't) take advantage of, as the individuals I'm talking about (different than the self-employed/WFH/SAHM ones you mention) are much less picky if they can find a school they can actually attend.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 6, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Not on its own. But I think that could be a big source of revenue a lot of schools don't (or can't) take advantage of, as the individuals I'm talking about (different than the self-employed/WFH/SAHM ones you mention) are much less picky if they can find a school they can actually attend.


Good point, I can’t argue against that. If you are running a school and your livlihood depends on it, take students whenever they are available. Hopefully there would be a big enough group with interest in these times lots to make it worth the time, or real potential for it to grow if it is small to begin with.


----------



## skribs (Oct 6, 2021)

My school used to have morning classes.  They were barely utilized, to the point it wasn't worth my Master making the commute to open the school in the mornings.  There was a 1 month period where I was furloughed, in which I was usually one of 2-3 students in the morning class.  

Now, he does do some private lessons during that time (it helps that he's moved closer), but he doesn't keep it on the schedule.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 6, 2021)

skribs said:


> My school used to have morning classes.  They were barely utilized, to the point it wasn't worth my Master making the commute to open the school in the mornings.  There was a 1 month period where I was furloughed, in which I was usually one of 2-3 students in the morning class.
> 
> Now, he does do some private lessons during that time (it helps that he's moved closer), but he doesn't keep it on the schedule.


Yeah, that is what I suspect may happen a lot.   It I think it could be a possibility, just need to adjust if it isn’t being used.  

It also occurs to me that during summer vacations and holiday breaks, having morning and afternoon classes could give more options for the kids and the older students, including college age, who are suddenly finding free time.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 6, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> One of my old schools, when they had a similar issue, changed their intermediate class to an intermediate/advanced class. They explained to the advanced students that they can come to the class, but that they'd be working on lower level material to improve it. Not everyone is interested in doing that


Hmmm.  Perhaps those advanced students were not advanced enough.  To me, there is no such thing as a basic class.  After 50 years I'm still working on changing direction and doing a better punch.  Sometimes advanced students get too caught up in the more difficult or complex things, or in competition.  They lose sight that mastery of the basics and the full understanding of the concepts behind their ideal perfect execution is their main goal and a never ending quest.

OK.  Back to the business topic...


----------



## WaterGal (Oct 6, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course it also assumes that these additional classes are held at a time when people can attend and are not occupied with other obligations, like jobs.  It seems to me that there are certain times of the day when classes are much much more likely to be attended, such as evenings, weekends, and perhaps early mornings, and other times when attendance will likely be minimal or non-existent like during normal business hours (8-6) for most jobs.  In that case, holding more classes does not really help in accommodating more students.



There's definitely an upper limit on it and you'll get diminishing returns after that, but you can fit a pretty good number of classes during the peak hours of Monday-Friday 5pm-9pm and weekends 9am-3pm.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 6, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The place I trained at the longest had some classes that were just "fillers" for those who needed them, but didn't get the kind of attendance the prime-time classes got. For a while, there was even a 10AM M/W class for a small number of folks who couldn't reliably make it to evening classes.


We have a 10:30 morning class M-W-S at one location and M-S at the other where a lot of people do shift work.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 6, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Good point, I can’t argue against that. If you are running a school and your livlihood depends on it, take students whenever they are available. Hopefully there would be a big enough group with interest in these times lots to make it worth the time, or real potential for it to grow if it is small to begin with.


If I ran a school where I'm counting on that money.  I would be open for more than 8 hours and have classes throughout the day.  There's no way I would run it like the last school.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 6, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, that is what I suspect may happen a lot.   It I think it could be a possibility, just need to adjust if it isn’t being used.
> 
> It also occurs to me that during summer vacations and holiday breaks, having morning and afternoon classes could give more options for the kids and the older students, including college age, who are suddenly finding free time.


We have 3 summer camps each 5 weeks long. Retention is good.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 6, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> We have a 10:30 morning class M-W-S at one location and M-S at the other where a lot of people do shift work.


Yeah, I think you need shift workers for those classes to be a revenue source.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If I ran a school where I'm counting on that money.  I would be open for more than 8 hours and have classes throughout the day.  There's no way I would run it like the last school.


Even if there are no classes, there is something that can be worked on to help promote the school or provide content for students.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 6, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, I think you need shift workers for those classes to be a revenue source.


It is really important to know the makeup of the local economy. Some of my oldest students worked 2nd/3rd shifts. Many of them older than me.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 6, 2021)

skribs said:


> My school used to have morning classes.  They were barely utilized, to the point it wasn't worth my Master making the commute to open the school in the mornings.  There was a 1 month period where I was furloughed, in which I was usually one of 2-3 students in the morning class.
> 
> Now, he does do some private lessons during that time (it helps that he's moved closer), but he doesn't keep it on the schedule.


I was referring more to afternoon then morning classes-morning classes still have the issue of people either working or sleeping during them if they have a shifted work schedule.

And with it, an important part would be advertising. If you can get those people to know about your class, it would be a lot different than just offering it and expecting them to discover it.

This is of course presuming you're not working during the day yourself, it seems at the very least an avenue to explore. And that you're moving somewhere with a lot of shift workers.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 7, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I was referring more to afternoon then morning classes-morning classes still have the issue of people either working or sleeping during them if they have a shifted work schedule.
> 
> And with it, an important part would be advertising. If you can get those people to know about your class, it would be a lot different than just offering it and expecting them to discover it.
> 
> This is of course presuming you're not working during the day yourself, it seems at the very least an avenue to explore. And that you're moving somewhere with a lot of shift workers.


In early days of a school, an extra 10 students makes a big difference. Definitely worth exploring.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 7, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I am going to be that guy and give you an indirect answer.
> But first some Big questions:
> Of the 5k monthly expense estimate how much is going toward rent?
> What is the national cost of living scale where you will rent?
> ...


 I saw this model work for some local Martial Artists in the Late 70's & Early Mid 80's. 
Also good info


----------



## WaterGal (Oct 9, 2021)

crshieh said:


> Here I'll give you my answers straight up the way you asked them: Currently teaching out of a community center
> 
> 1. 30 students to breakeven (includes rent, marketing, and software).
> 2. 70 students to decent living.  I'm on average charging around 115 per student, you can do the math.
> ...


I think this is the best answer on this thread. 

If you can build up a big enough student base to break even on a commercial space before you open one, that eliminates most of the risk. And you can buy equipment over time, develop processes, get better at teaching, etc.


----------

