# New Martial Art Student and Options



## StellarAevum (Jan 21, 2019)

Greetings! I am a university student who, while I am living on campus at least, wanted to do martial arts training with one of the student organizations. 

There are several choices of martial arts on campus however, and I am trying to decide between them. I am aware that many people new to martial arts would ask things like "how hard is it to learn" or "how quickly can I get my black belt". I am also aware of the inherent problems with those questions. I have five goals for a martial art:

Self-Discipline 
Practice Against a Resisting Opponent
Sparring
Fun
Regularity 
Exercise

That being said, here are the options I have, all offer training in the respective martial art and cost nothing but the price of their uniforms which is not initially required in any but the Taekwondo club. 

I have a Chinese Martial Arts club that when contacted says they practice contemporary Kung Fu as well as drawing upon Shoalin Kung Fu. I could make their classes twice a week and they say they spend their time with stretches and forms. 

I have a Japanese Jujutsu club that I would be able to attend once a week. I have little information on them however. 

There is a WTF Taekwondo club on campus that I would be able to attend twice a week. They are a new club on campus and I do not know much about them other than the teacher being from South Korea. 

There is a Shotokan Karate club on campus that I would be able to attend twice a week, three times if I become and advanced student. This is the only club I have been to thus far. This club has been on campus since the late 80s and is lead by a Japanese-American sensei and there is another Japanese trained black belt besides the sensei. I have attended two classes and we briefly went over the history of Shotokan Karate, we drill basic punches and blocks, we work on kata, and we do paired training sequences. No sparring has been mentioned or included as of yet for any students present. The class maintains a respectful atmosphere and the other students have been very helpful. 

Ideally, I should be able to attend once class for each of these clubs and see what they are like, in which case I will update this but I would really like to here some more learned perspectives on this predicament. 

*Possibly Relevant Information:*
_Sex:_ Male
_Age: _21
_Height:_ 6'3"
_Shape: _I am slightly overweight.
_Mental Health: _I have high functioning autism (Asperger's syndrome under DSM4). I do not mind being touched in class, but I will be a little slower in learning proper coordination and loud noises and brights lights are very distracting. I am functional enough to not need medication or accommodations in a classroom setting. 
_Martial Arts Background:_ About a year of formalized Taekwondo training (white belt) I do not recall which style but it had sparring using only the groin cup. Some boxing drilling with veteran friends. So in short, nothing of any true note.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 21, 2019)

First off, welcome to Martial Talk. As you'll shortly learn, we're full of answers. Those answers are mostly wrong, but we seem to like it that way. 

Touching first on the Shotokan club - most Shotokan groups give significant time to sparring, so it would be worth asking the instructor there if that's a part of their training, since it's important to you. In fact, it would be worth making a quick visit to each club and asking about the sparring, and whether it would be possible to observe part of a class that contains sparring. That would give you a chance to see if it's the kind of sparring you're looking for.

That's probably your best approach, since the content and focus of any of those clubs is highly dependent upon the people running them. The Jujutsu club could be highly stylized, or could be like a combination of Judo and BJJ (closer to old-school Judo) with strikes and sparring included.


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## StellarAevum (Jan 21, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> First off, welcome to Martial Talk. As you'll shortly learn, we're full of answers. Those answers are mostly wrong, but we seem to like it that way.
> 
> Touching first on the Shotokan club - most Shotokan groups give significant time to sparring, so it would be worth asking the instructor there if that's a part of their training, since it's important to you. In fact, it would be worth making a quick visit to each club and asking about the sparring, and whether it would be possible to observe part of a class that contains sparring. That would give you a chance to see if it's the kind of sparring you're looking for.
> 
> That's probably your best approach, since the content and focus of any of those clubs is highly dependent upon the people running them. The Jujutsu club could be highly stylized, or could be like a combination of Judo and BJJ (closer to old-school Judo) with strikes and sparring included.



Thank you very much for your reply and humility.

I went to the Japanese Jujutsu club today as the class that would normally prevent me from coming this time of the week was cancelled and I greatly enjoyed myself.

The instructor is a veteran and very much focused on practical application and we spent a lot of time doing physical conditioning, learning how to roll and fall, and learning various wrist and shoulder locks.

The movements feel a lot more fluid and natural to me than the linear movements of Shotokan Karate and included strikes as distraction. While I was not able to keep up with the physical conditioning due to my level of fitness, I was told I was a natural when it came to wrist and shoulder locks which we practiced on with a partner.

Because this class will not interfere with the Shotokan Karate club and I was assured that wearing a medium or heavy weight karate gi would be fine for the class, I am currently considering attending Shotokan Karate twice a week and Jujutsu once a week.

My Jujutsu instructor told us that he encourages cross training and my Karate class has several students that are also practitioners of other martial arts so I do not think that my instructors would mind if I did both.

Do you think this is a good or poor choice? I still intend to look into the other clubs when they become available.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 21, 2019)

If there are no contracts, give them a try; you'll gravitate towards what works best for you. Welcome to MT.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 21, 2019)

StellarAevum said:


> Thank you very much for your reply and humility.
> 
> I went to the Japanese Jujutsu club today as the class that would normally prevent me from coming this time of the week was cancelled and I greatly enjoyed myself.
> 
> ...


Generally, it's better (from a learning perspective) to get some foundation in one before starting another. How much foundation is a matter for debate. But, if you enjoy the idea of doing two at once (and especially if each is only going to meet once a week), then go for it. Your early learning might be a bit slower, but in the long run it'll probably take about the same amount of time to build competency in both, so do what feels fun!


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## StellarAevum (Jan 21, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Generally, it's better (from a learning perspective) to get some foundation in one before starting another. How much foundation is a matter for debate. But, if you enjoy the idea of doing two at once (and especially if each is only going to meet once a week), then go for it. Your early learning might be a bit slower, but in the long run it'll probably take about the same amount of time to build competency in both, so do what feels fun!



The stance and technique of the two martial arts does not seem to overlap, at least in these earlier stages. Doing something like Karate and Taekwondo at once would seem to me, as a beginner, to be more of a problem as there is overlap where it would be easy to use one martial art's striking methods when you should be doing the other. 

But then again, I could be completely wrong. I worry about only having practice once a week if I wanted to devote myself to Jujutsu however.


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## JR 137 (Jan 21, 2019)

You’ve been given solid advice so far. I’d say keep visiting the ones you haven’t yet and take a class or two with them. The right one or ones should jump out at you. 

I typically tell people to get enough experience in one art before starting another, but your case isn’t typical. You’ve got all this different stuff around you, and it’s free. Take advantage of that.

Also keep in mind that your schedule is going to change from semester to semester, so what’s available 3 nights a week to you this semester may only be available once a week or maybe not at all.

Try everything, stick with what you like. If you like two and can do them both, do that. 

Also keep in mind that any rank earned most likely won’t translate over to a school after you graduate. Shotokan seems the most popular from your list. A different Shotokan school doesn’t have to honor any rank you’ll hold when you graduate. There are different Shotokan organizations, and they each do things differently. You’ll most likely progress through the ranks you’ve previously earned, but don’t expect every Shotokan dojo to take you in as, say a purple belt. Same for every other style you’ve mentioned.

Best of luck to you and let us know how it’s going. As an aside, I teach a few students (academic, not MA) with Asperger’s. I also currently and formerly in my previous organization train with a few adults with Asperger’s and other ASD. They’ve all benefited greatly from MA. I’m not saying every single person on the spectrum will benefit, but everyone I’ve met that trains has.


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## StellarAevum (Jan 21, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> You’ve been given solid advice so far. I’d say keep visiting the ones you haven’t yet and take a class or two with them. The right one or ones should jump out at you.
> 
> I typically tell people to get enough experience in one art before starting another, but your case isn’t typical. You’ve got all this different stuff around you, and it’s free. Take advantage of that.
> 
> ...




Thank you very much for your words of wisdom. 

I do not know about the other schools, but the Shotokan one is part of a internationally recognized organization. Regardless, I am not in martial arts to win dyed segments of cloth, the training will be there regardless of wether another school would like me to adjust or refine earlier training or not.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 21, 2019)

StellarAevum said:


> I have a Chinese Martial Arts club that when contacted says they practice contemporary Kung Fu as well as drawing upon Shoalin Kung Fu. I could make their classes twice a week and they say they spend their time with stretches and forms.


I won't suggest contemporary Wushu because you will not learn any MA application there.


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## StellarAevum (Jan 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I won't suggest contemporary Wushu because you will not learn any MA application there.



Would it be okay if I asked you to elaborate? I am sadly very ignorant about Chinese martial art practices.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 21, 2019)

StellarAevum said:


> Would it be okay if I asked you to elaborate? I am sadly very ignorant about Chinese martial art practices.


The modern Wushu is 100% performance art. It doesn't contain any MA application at all.


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## dvcochran (Jan 21, 2019)

StellarAevum said:


> Greetings! I am a university student who, while I am living on campus at least, wanted to do martial arts training with one of the student organizations.
> 
> There are several choices of martial arts on campus however, and I am trying to decide between them. I am aware that many people new to martial arts would ask things like "how hard is it to learn" or "how quickly can I get my black belt". I am also aware of the inherent problems with those questions. I have five goals for a martial art:
> 
> ...



Welcome, You are on the right track. Take your time and audit all the classes offered. Your height would likely be an advantage in TKD assuming flexibility isn't too big an issue. Have you enjoyed the Karate class? If so, you could give it a go for a semester and see if you still like it. The weight should shed with any of the styles assuming they are of decent quality. This has much more to do with the instructor(s) than the style. If you see this as long term and see yourself relocating in the future look into the accreditation/certification. This would likely be an advantage for the WT(F) class. FWIW, there is sparring and there is some very light contact stuff I have seen in more than a few university classes so if you have a good idea of what you are looking for that should be a big part of decision. Keep in touch and let us know what you decide. Let us know if you have any more questions.


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## StellarAevum (Jan 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The modern Wushu is 100% performance art. It doesn't contain any MA application at all.



I see. I'm sorry if I am being annoying with my questions. 

While I do want a martial art with at least some level of practical application, just because a martial art does not help with fighting does not necessarily mean it is not a martial art does it?

Are not aesthetics, mental discipline, and physical conditioning a part of martial arts as well?


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## StellarAevum (Jan 21, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Welcome, You are on the right track. Take your time and audit all the classes offered. Your height would likely be an advantage in TKD assuming flexibility isn't too big an issue. Have you enjoyed the Karate class? If so, you could give it a go for a semester and see if you still like it. The weight should shed with any of the styles assuming they are of decent quality. This has much more to do with the instructor(s) than the style. If you see this as long term and see yourself relocating in the future look into the accreditation/certification. This would likely be an advantage for the WT(F) class. FWIW, there is sparring and there is some very light contact stuff I have seen in more than a few university classes so if you have a good idea of what you are looking for that should be a big part of decision. Keep in touch and let us know what you decide. Let us know if you have any more questions.



Thank you very much for your response. While I enjoyed Taekwondo, I worry about the techniques taught in WTF sparring concerning protecting the head.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 21, 2019)

StellarAevum said:


> I see. I'm sorry if I am being annoying with my questions.
> 
> While I do want a martial art with at least some level of practical application, just because a martial art does not help with fighting does not necessarily mean it is not a martial art does it?
> 
> Are not aesthetics, mental discipline, and physical conditioning a part of martial arts as well?


You can learn the art, physical condition. Not sure about mental discipline.


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## dvcochran (Jan 21, 2019)

StellarAevum said:


> Thank you very much for your response. While I enjoyed Taekwondo, I worry about the techniques taught in WTF sparring concerning protecting the head.


Do you remember wearing head gear and a chest protector? I hear a lot of push back about head gear safety but experience tells me at the very least they greatly cut down on abrasions. You should have little to worry about unless you get into tournament sparring. This is assuming they follow a "normal" WT(F) curriculum.


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## dvcochran (Jan 21, 2019)

StellarAevum said:


> I see. I'm sorry if I am being annoying with my questions.
> 
> While I do want a martial art with at least some level of practical application, just because a martial art does not help with fighting does not necessarily mean it is not a martial art does it?
> 
> Are not aesthetics, mental discipline, and physical conditioning a part of martial arts as well?


In a word, yes. Hence the word Martial. I cannot speak specifically to Wushu and do not like devaluing any style but if something is little more than a variation of dance it is not a Martial Art. There are some out there. 
Do not hold back on the questions.


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## StellarAevum (Jan 21, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Do you remember wearing head gear and a chest protector? I hear a lot of push back about head gear safety but experience tells me at the very least they greatly cut down on abrasions. You should have little to worry about unless you get into tournament sparring. This is assuming they follow a "normal" WT(F) curriculum.



I have not been to the WTF Taekwondo club yet, but as far as I know, that organization encourages a method of fighting in which you do not regularly practice defending yourself from punches to the face. I am sure they use WTF protective gear. 

The Taekwondo school I attended when I was younger did not use protective gear and we could, and were thought to defend against, strikes to the face.


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## StellarAevum (Jan 21, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> In a word, yes. Hence the word Martial. I cannot speak specifically to Wushu and do not like devaluing any style but if something is little more than a variation of dance it is not a Martial Art. There are some out there.
> Do not hold back on the questions.



Well to be fair, if one were to be particular about the etymological definitions of martial and art, then most martial arts would not actually be martial arts. Martial means to do with war, and most martial arts are rooted in civilian self-defense rather than martial application.


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## dvcochran (Jan 21, 2019)

StellarAevum said:


> I have not been to the WTF Taekwondo club yet, but as far as I know, that organization encourages a method of fighting in which you do not regularly practice defending yourself from punches to the face. I am sure they use WTF protective gear.
> 
> The Taekwondo school I attended when I was younger did not use protective gear and we could, and were thought to defend against, strikes to the face.


Yes, that is WTF sparring at the tourney level. There are some variants out there that do punch the face and teach comprehensive self defense skills. I am a long time WTF TKD guy and frankly if they teach only kicks, sparring and the Taeguek forms and nothing else I would encourage you to move on to the next style. BUT make sure. See if they have a written curriculum or at least talk it out with the instructor and any higher belts that you can. For example, we are "officially" at WT(F)/Kukkiwon school. But our GM has a heavy background in Kung Fu, and MKD TSD so we get a very full plate of variety. We also spar both ways. For those who want to get more into tournaments we have tourney sparring specific classes (red/black belt only). But in regular class sparring we punch the face, clinch, and sweep. No ground fighting though. That is more covered in our SD drills. So there is a lot out there that I doubt you have even thought about yet. That is where a brief intro to each style will give you perspective to help make a good choice.


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## dvcochran (Jan 21, 2019)

StellarAevum said:


> Well to be fair, if one were to be particular about the etymological definitions of martial and art, then most martial arts would not actually be martial arts. Martial means to do with war, and most martial arts are rooted in civilian self-defense rather than martial application.


There is a small collection of old styles with ties back to early wartimes in their root country. There are a great many variants and yes, "modern" styles cannot say this so in that respect you are correct. But to put too much of a dividing line between the too can easily degrade the purpose because, in reality, much of what you would be learning should be much the same, at least similar. The learning tactics are what will be different.


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## StellarAevum (Jan 21, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> There is a small collection of old styles with ties back to early wartimes in their root country. There are a great many variants and yes, "modern" styles cannot say this so in that respect you are correct. But to put too much of a dividing line between the too can easily degrade the purpose because, in reality, much of what you would be learning should be much the same, at least similar. The learning tactics are what will be different.



While my experiences in Taekwondo and Karate have been similar, those two and boxing and jujutsu have felt very different from one another. In technique as well as training.


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## JR 137 (Jan 21, 2019)

StellarAevum said:


> Thank you very much for your words of wisdom.
> 
> I do not know about the other schools, but the Shotokan one is part of a internationally recognized organization. Regardless, I am not in martial arts to win dyed segments of cloth, the training will be there regardless of wether another school would like me to adjust or refine earlier training or not.


This is the best mentality to have. Please don’t lose sight of it.

Regarding Wushu, it’s a performance art, not a combative art. Just like Kung Fu Wang has said. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with training in it, however you stated “practice against a resisting opponent” as one of your goals; it was your second goal listed. To me that implies you’re looking for self defense from it; however much you’re looking for is unclear. If you’re looking for self defense, you’re not going to get much from modern Wushu. It’s significantly closer to a dance routine than it is to a combative art. Nothing wrong with that at all if you’re aware and accepting of it.

Wushu is a generic term that can mean a lot of different Chinese martial arts. Modern Wushu is pretty much accepted as the performance art.

Edit: I don’t know if “contemporary Kung Fu” and modern Wushu are the same thing or not. I believe Kung Fu and Wushu can be used interchangeably, and modern and contemporary can be, so it’s possible they’re the same thing. Maybe not though. I’m not a Chinese MA expert, so I have to defer here.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 22, 2019)

StellarAevum said:


> The stance and technique of the two martial arts does not seem to overlap, at least in these earlier stages. Doing something like Karate and Taekwondo at once would seem to me, as a beginner, to be more of a problem as there is overlap where it would be easy to use one martial art's striking methods when you should be doing the other.



I do think it's easier where there's less overlap. If both have an L stance, but approach it differently, it can cause some confusion (both of concepts, and in the muscle memory). At the same time, you'll run into differences in approach in any case, but nothing that can't be dealt with. One of my favorite training partners started Aikido and Karate at the same time. He progressed more slowly than most, but no more slowly than I did, and had a better overall competence than most after a few years.



> But then again, I could be completely wrong. I worry about only having practice once a week if I wanted to devote myself to Jujutsu however.


And that was my point about frequency earlier. Once a week can work, but it's a slow road, and you'll get less overall benefit (especially fitness and flexibility) that way. So adding a second art to be able to train at least twice a week is, in my opinion, almost entirely positive.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 22, 2019)

StellarAevum said:


> I see. I'm sorry if I am being annoying with my questions.
> 
> While I do want a martial art with at least some level of practical application, just because a martial art does not help with fighting does not necessarily mean it is not a martial art does it?
> 
> Are not aesthetics, mental discipline, and physical conditioning a part of martial arts as well?


They can be - that's a matter of approach. Some instructors give no attention to aesthetics. Mental discipline is a part of any skill building, so martial arts are certainly no exception - they all require you do things regularly, sometimes when you don't want to, and some of it being boring. And anything that gets you moving will add some to your fitness. The more vigorous the demands of the activity, the more fitness you're likely to gain. In those latter two, modern Wushu probably does as good a job as most combat-applicable martial arts. We could call it martial tumbling or martial dance, and we wouldn't think those would require less discipline or fitness.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 22, 2019)

StellarAevum said:


> Thank you very much for your response. While I enjoyed Taekwondo, I worry about the techniques taught in WTF sparring concerning protecting the head.


The issue to consider isn't the WT(F) rules, but whether that's all they train for. It is my understanding that there are WT-oriented TKD schools that teach the full range of TKD, including the (rather large) body of material that isn't useful under WT rules. If they train specifically for WT competition - and that's their only focus - then your concern is probably valid.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 22, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can learn the art, physical condition. Not sure about mental discipline.


It will still take mental discipline to learn those routines, just as it does for gymnast to develop a floor routine.


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## drop bear (Jan 22, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> There is a small collection of old styles with ties back to early wartimes in their root country. There are a great many variants and yes, "modern" styles cannot say this so in that respect you are correct. But to put too much of a dividing line between the too can easily degrade the purpose because, in reality, much of what you would be learning should be much the same, at least similar. The learning tactics are what will be different.



The old styles like boxing and wrestling?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 23, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It will still take mental discipline to learn those routines,


When people start to use the terms mental discipline, self-cultivation, inner peace, ... I truly don't know what they are talking about.

You can add a lot of fancy terms to make MA look pretty. To me, MA is as simple as "fist meets face" and "head hits ground".


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people start to use the terms mental discipline, self-cultivation, inner peace, ... I truly don't know what they are talking about.
> 
> You can add a lot of fancy terms to make MA look pretty. To me, MA is as simple as "fist meets face" and "head hits ground".


Discipline is simple. When you train a skill, you have to do boring stuff, on days you don't want to go, at all, sometimes with a partner you'd rather not work with. But you do, anyway.

Self-discipline is a skill...and almost a resource, the way the research is pointing. If you use it, it gets stronger, like muscle. If you exercise it regularly, it becomes easier to maintain. Long-term practice of martial arts, gymnastics, piano, etc. - if done with the kind of repetition and dedication that typically is required to develop skill - exercises discipline and develops the skill.


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## dvcochran (Jan 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people start to use the terms mental discipline, self-cultivation, inner peace, ... I truly don't know what they are talking about.
> 
> You can add a lot of fancy terms to make MA look pretty. To me, MA is as simple as "fist meets face" and "head hits ground".



That is simply wrong. Martial ARTS are a whole approach to protecting body, mind, and spirit. Corny I know, but true. If a person has never been taught the things you mention, and I will include virtue, discipline respect, etc... I can understand that they do not understand, but I do not agree with it. If you want to make anything better, your MA, your family, yourself, the world, these principals cannot be left out. If you want to learn how to fight without a filter that is your prerogative but you have to know there are implications.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 23, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> That is simply wrong. Martial ARTS are a whole approach to protecting body, mind, and spirit. Corny I know, but true. If a person has never been taught the things you mention, and I will include virtue, discipline respect, etc... I can understand that they do not understand, but I do not agree with it. If you want to make anything better, your MA, your family, yourself, the world, these principals cannot be left out. If you want to learn how to fight without a filter that is your prerogative but you have to know there are implications.


I don't really buy into the idea that the word "art" means that - that's a connotation not originally in the term. That's the "do" in later Japanese arts, but I wouldn't cease to call something a martial art simply because it doesn't overtly operate on those principles.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 24, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> This is the best mentality to have. Please don’t lose sight of it.
> 
> Regarding Wushu, it’s a performance art, not a combative art. Just like Kung Fu Wang has said. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with training in it, however you stated “practice against a resisting opponent” as one of your goals; it was your second goal listed. To me that implies you’re looking for self defense from it; however much you’re looking for is unclear. If you’re looking for self defense, you’re not going to get much from modern Wushu. It’s significantly closer to a dance routine than it is to a combative art. Nothing wrong with that at all if you’re aware and accepting of it.
> 
> ...


“Wushu” is the proper term meaning fighting methods.  “Kung fu” means skill gained through hard work and training.  That skill can be in anything, including the fighting methods or cooking or carpentry or physics, etc.  Through a misunderstanding in the meaning, the term has been attached to the martial arts, and in the West it continues to be used in that way.

Traditional Wushu would be in reference to the older methods of combative training.  

Modern Wushu was established in the 1950s by the Communist Chinese government as a national performance and competition artform.  It is based on the traditional methods of Wushu, but deviates from proper technical application with the goal of impressing an audience.

Modern Wushu folks can be excellent athletes.  But it is akin to a martial-flavored gymnastics routine.  Fighting skills are not part of the goals of the method.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people start to use the terms mental discipline, self-cultivation, inner peace, ... I truly don't know what they are talking about.
> 
> You can add a lot of fancy terms to make MA look pretty. To me, MA is as simple as "fist meets face" and "head hits ground".



Discipline makes you more effective at that.






But fighting arts as a pathway to better mental health is kind of common.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> “Wushu” is the proper term meaning fighting methods.  “Kung fu” means skill gained through hard work and training.  That skill can be in anything, including the fighting methods or cooking or carpentry or physics, etc.  Through a misunderstanding in the meaning, the term has been attached to the martial arts, and in the West it continues to be used in that way.
> 
> Traditional Wushu would be in reference to the older methods of combative training.
> 
> ...



But of course it is not the system. It is the individual. So if you train it hard enough somehow you just gain combative skills through osmosis or something. 

The training really does not have to be relevant to the activity. Or even well thought out to be honest. All paths lead to the same place.


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