# Chiang Nan/Channan; one of two precursors to the Pinan/Heian/Pyung Ahn form sets.



## SahBumNimRush (Jan 30, 2012)

The Pinan kata originated in Okinawa and were adapted by Anko Itosu from older kata such as Kusanku and Channan.  One of the stories surrounding the history of the Pinan kata claims that  Itosu learned a kata from a Chinese man living in Okinawa. This kata  was called "Chiang Nan" by the Chinese man.[SUP]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_nan#cite_note-4[/SUP]  The form became known as "Channan", an Okinawan/Japanese approximation  of the Chinese pronunciation. The original form of the Channan kata is  lost. Itosu formed 5 katas from the long Channan Kata which he thought  would be easier to learn.

I've always wondered if any remnants of the elusive Chiang Nan form still exists and what it may look like.  While looking on the net for connections between CMA forms/techniques and OMA/JMA/KMA forms/techniques, I came across a Baqua form called Jiang Nan.  It appears to have some similar movements as the Pyung Ahn form sets, does any of our CMA MTer's know anything about this form?  What do the OMA/JMA/KMA MTer's think?


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## clfsean (Jan 30, 2012)

Nah... this is the Hung variant taught by Wong Kiew Kit. Not the same. 

This basic northern longfist set would fit better for the non-Goju/Uechi OMA lines in my opinion... http://youtu.be/FYzFMdJ0anQ


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 30, 2012)

I suspected that it was not, but I thought I'd ask those who were more knowledgeable than I.  The formset you linked above does have some very interesting similarities in it.  Thanks for the link.  






I'd love to discuss similarities between the looks of techniques vs. the intent/application of those techniques.  

For example: snap shot at 0:19 looks similar to a "spear hand strike," however it is delivered much differently.  

Snap shot at 0:35 looks similar to a "side punching attack" which we also use as a takedown (extended arm scissoring the attacker's body with the front leg of the deep horse stance).

Those are really the only two movements in the form clfsean linked that I would say show strong similarity to the art I practice.


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## clfsean (Jan 30, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I suspected that it was not, but I thought I'd ask those who were more knowledgeable than I.  The formset you linked above does have some very interesting similarities in it.  Thanks for the link.
> 
> I'd love to discuss similarities between the looks of techniques vs. the intent/application of those techniques.
> 
> ...



I'll get back on this later tonight when I get in from teaching.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2012)

video is blocked at work so I cannot view the link right now.  However, it is my understanding that the Fukienese White Crane method is where a lot of the Chinese influence in the Okinawan arts came from.  The famous Sanchin kata has a direct and VERY similar counterpart in the FWC method, tho I cannot remember what they call it.  Four Battles, or Eight Battles or something...?

anyway, I would start looking in that direction for links and similarities.

Oh, and make sure you are looking at the Fukienese method, and not the Tibetan White Crane.  Those are completely separate arts that happen to share the same name.


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## clfsean (Jan 30, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> video is blocked at work so I cannot view the link right now.  However, it is my understanding that the Fukienese White Crane method is where a lot of the Chinese influence in the Okinawan arts came from.  The famous Sanchin kata has a direct and VERY similar counterpart in the FWC method, tho I cannot remember what they call it.  Four Battles, or Eight Battles or something...?
> 
> anyway, I would start looking in that direction for links and similarities.
> 
> Oh, and make sure you are looking at the Fukienese method, and not the Tibetan White Crane.  Those are completely separate arts that happen to share the same name.



For the Goju/uechi styles yep, dead on. But for the others (Shorin types), I can't find anything from the north to fit it per se. They're definitely not Songshan Shaolin stuff. Maybe other stuff.

This video is a gen 1 or gen 2 max (before the initial outlaw of san shou by the PRC) wushu set that is basic northern styled wushu. Non-descript by style but could be similar in nature the non-White Crane/Fujianese influenced OMAs.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 30, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> video is blocked at work so I cannot view the link right now.  However, it is my understanding that the Fukienese White Crane method is where a lot of the Chinese influence in the Okinawan arts came from.  The famous Sanchin kata has a direct and VERY similar counterpart in the FWC method, tho I cannot remember what they call it.  Four Battles, or Eight Battles or something...?
> 
> anyway, I would start looking in that direction for links and similarities.
> 
> Oh, and make sure you are looking at the Fukienese method, and not the Tibetan White Crane.  Those are completely separate arts that happen to share the same name.



Thanks, we were talking about this on a previous thread, the Okinawan Sanchin Kata (3 battles) and Fukian White Crane San Zhan (3 battles) are the same, as well as Nipaipo (Naha Te/ Shito Ryu) vs. Er Shi Ba Bu (white crane).  We also discussed the correlation between Grand Ancestors Boxing and Goju/Uechi.  See 



.

I see subtle similarities between Fukien White Crane and the art that I practice, but I am interested in looking at other styles that may have influenced the forms that I practice as well.


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## clfsean (Jan 30, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I suspected that it was not, but I thought I'd ask those who were more knowledgeable than I.  The formset you linked above does have some very interesting similarities in it.  Thanks for the link.
> 
> I'd love to discuss similarities between the looks of techniques vs. the intent/application of those techniques.



Here we go... 



SahBumNimRush said:


> For example: snap shot at 0:19 looks similar to a "spear hand strike," however it is delivered much differently.



Poon kiu / gum jeurng ... circling bridge to an upper palm. Basic idea (for me)... parry & strike. Another idea... parry into a wrap & joint dislocation at the shoulder. With the forward stance taken in the set, to me that works as an ankle/knee attack to the low line, out of vision due to the parry/strike going on up top. Tie them together or separate. 



SahBumNimRush said:


> Snap shot at 0:35 looks similar to a "side punching attack" which we also use as a takedown (extended arm scissoring the attacker's body with the front leg of the deep horse stance).



Ping choi -- level fisted punch. Bunch of little things like the hands to the right hip while settling into the horse stance before the punch. To me... It's not so much a punch as it is a cross body arm bar with the left arm acting as a lever in a sweep due to the horse stance crashing into the lower body. Or just a massive body punch. 



SahBumNimRush said:


> Those are really the only two movements in the form clfsean linked that I would say show strong similarity to the art I practice.



Don't look at the individual posture. Look at motion, construct & function. I practiced the Pyung-ahns when I studied TKD in the 80's thru to the 90's. Individual postures can be misleading. I can perform a Single Whip from Yang Taiji & a Single Whip from Northern longfist. If you look at the posture, it's the same. If you look how/why/where it's applied, not really the same at all, but it is. 

Know what I mean?


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 30, 2012)

I completely agree with the movements, but the movements are very foreign to me, so I chose to highlight the still postures which I could relate to.  Thank you for your response, very helpful.  

Your explanation of Ping Choi seems to be similar to mine.  Your explanation of Poon kiu / gum jeurng is very interesting.  I know techniques that do what you are describing, but never thought of a movement in that manner.  

It's late here, just jumped on to check the thread.. .  I'll pick back up tomorrow.  Thanks again!


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 31, 2012)

The majority of the forms that I practice are of the Shuri-Te lineage: Pinan (Pyung Ahn), Naihanchi, Kusanku (Kang Song Kun), Jion, Jitte (Ship Soo).  I also practice Chinto (Jinto), Wanshu (Empi), and Seisan.  I am interested in exploring the history of these forms and the arts they are derived from.



The *Pinans *are said to be derived from Kusanku and Chian Nan/ Channon, a form which is said to be lost in time.



*Kusanku*:  Named after Kusanku, a Chinese martial artist who lived in Okinawa during the 18th century.  It's said that he learned Ch'uan Fa from a Shaolin Monk.  Sakugawa developed the form(s) in honor of Kusanku.  Some have also suggested that is has influence from Fujien White Crane.





Do you see any techniques that look similar to Fujien White Crane?


*Naihanchi*: This form seems to start in Okinawa in Tomari, from a Chinese man living there.  It was said to have been a Chinese form that no longer is practiced.  In the 1960s a kung fu practitioner, Daichi Kaneko, studied a form of Taiwanese White Crane Boxing, known as Dan Qiu Ban Bai He Quan (Half Hillock, Half White Crane Boxing). Kaneko, an acupuncturist who lived in Yonabaru, Okinawa,  taught a form called Neixi (inside knee) in Mandarin. This form  includes the same sweeping action found in the nami-gaeshi (returning  wave) technique of Naihanchi. Neixi is pronounced Nohanchi in Fuzhou dialect, which could indicate Neixi is the forerunner to Naihanchi.





*Jion/Jitte*:  These forms also seem to start on Okinawa in Tomari.  The only reference to Chinese Kung Fu that I find merely suggests that it was derived from "ancient Chinese boxing."  Some have suggested that the Jion kata were devised in the Jionji, the Jion temple.





*Chinto*: According to legend, it is named after a Chinese sailor, sometimes referred to as Annan, whose ship crashed on the Okinawan coast. To survive, Chint&#333; stole from the crops of the local people. Matsumura Sokon, a Karate master and chief bodyguard to the Okinawan king,  was sent to defeat Chint&#333;. In the ensuing fight, however, Matsumura  found himself equally matched by the stranger, and consequently sought  to learn his techniques.  I know little about Annan, and his style of martial arts.





*Wanshu**:  *'Wang Ji' (1621-1689), the leader of a large ambassadorial mission from China sent by the Qing government to the village of Tomari in 1683. A poet, calligrapher, diplomat, and martial artist in the Shaolin tradition of Fujian White Crane, he is often credited with teaching Chu'an Fa to the gentry of Tomari.





*Seisan*:  A Naha-Te form, it is suggested that Seisan derives from Yong Chun White Crane Boxing from Fujian Province  in Southern China, where the form is known as 'Four Gate Hands'. (This  is completely unproven and uncorroborated. There are some other Chinese  styles having a form called 'Shisan' (13) in their curricula, but a link  from a specific kung-fu form to Okinawan Seisan has never been  established.)





So out of the forms that I practice, only Wanshu and maybe Kusanku trace have been traced to Fujian White Crane.  There are suggestions that Seisan is derived from Fujian White Crane, and Naihanchi may have been derived from it since it has been seen in Taiwanese White Crane?  

Jion comes from "ancient Chinese boxing?"  Not very helpful.. .


Now I understand that things have been altered significantly down through the lineage of these forms, but does anyone see anything that could be linked to any Chinese techniques?  I'm not looking for a holy grail or anything, just trying to understand my forms better.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 31, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> *Naihanchi*: This form seems to start in Okinawa in Tomari, from a Chinese man living there.  It was said to have been a Chinese form that no longer is practiced.  In the 1960s a kung fu practitioner, Daichi Kaneko, studied a form of Taiwanese White Crane Boxing, known as Dan Qiu Ban Bai He Quan (*Half Hillock, Half White Crane Boxing*). Kaneko, an acupuncturist who lived in Yonabaru, Okinawa,  taught a form called Neixi (inside knee) in Mandarin. This form  includes the same sweeping action found in the nami-gaeshi (returning  wave) technique of Naihanchi. Neixi is pronounced Nohanchi in Fuzhou dialect, which could indicate Neixi is the forerunner to Naihanchi.



Boldface emphasis mine.

A student of Oyata Sensei told me that the characters for Nai Han Chi could be read as *Half Claw Foot*.  I've always wondered about that.  You seem to have found a source that supports a connection to that reading.  I would love if you can provide a citation.


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## clfsean (Jan 31, 2012)

Wow... I think I'm gonna kinda buzz kill it, but it all "could be related". I can see most of these forms or parts of them done in things I've done or been exposed to directly. 

Direct links though, that's the sketchy part. There are some CMA styles are brother/sister in development, but often don't even resemble the other in form/function. White Crane being one. There's Fuzhou variants, Taiwanese variants, Yong Chun, the branch in Ngo Cho, ... those are all shorthand too. 

There's a lot of translation in technique going from one to another. For instance I never have done anything like a shuto/sudo in CMA. However... I have done plenty of bridges that could be changed into a shuto/sudo depending on how it was taught/learned. I've never done anything like an over head x-block. However I have done a bridge that covers my head that could be changed into an x-block depending on how it was taught/learned. I've never pounded a makiwara, but I have done plenty of work on dummies for conditioning & training. The list goes on as you can definitely see. 

Does that help or obfuscate?

PS... my fav form in TKD was Kusanku when I earned my black. Then Bassai, Empi & Jitte. I know... Japanese, but that's how I learned it.


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## dancingalone (Jan 31, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I'd love to discuss similarities between the looks of techniques vs. the intent/application of those techniques.
> 
> For example: snap shot at 0:19 looks similar to a "spear hand strike," however it is delivered much differently.



The 'spearhand' is supported with the other arm which always suggests a wrap of some type to me.  To me one interpretation would be the previous double lower motion was a parry which opened the attacker to a smack to the side of his head with the inner part of your right arm.  Think of a short circular clothesline strike.  The supporting arm in the motion really comes up to the opposite site of the attacker to keep him within your working area after the clothesline.  Next we wrap around his neck/head area and rock back with a wiggle of our hips as in the form.  This will drop the attacker.


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## dancingalone (Jan 31, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Boldface emphasis mine.
> 
> A student of Oyata Sensei told me that the characters for Nai Han Chi could be read as *Half Claw Foot*.  I've always wondered about that.  You seem to have found a source that supports a connection to that reading.  I would love if you can provide a citation.



Do you care to speculate on the significance of reading the name as 'Half Claw Foot'?


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 31, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Boldface emphasis mine.
> 
> A student of Oyata Sensei told me that the characters for Nai Han Chi could be read as *Half Claw Foot*.  I've always wondered about that.  You seem to have found a source that supports a connection to that reading.  I would love if you can provide a citation.



I can't remember where I first heard that, but it is cited on Wikipedia.. . 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naihanchi


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## Makalakumu (Jan 31, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Do you care to speculate on the significance of reading the name as 'Half Claw Foot'?



I wondered if half claw foot referred to some metaphor to understand technique, but now it might just be another way of explaining the style. Half white crane would be an interesting style to research for karate historians. A white crane could very well be described as a claw foot. Unfortunately, I don't have enough experience with kanji to verify this reading. I know some people though...

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 31, 2012)

clfsean said:


> Wow... I think I'm gonna kinda buzz kill it, but it all "could be related". I can see most of these forms or parts of them done in things I've done or been exposed to directly.



I agree, the difficult part for me is identifying the movements, since I have little experience in CMA's.  Many of the movements are so different in appearance, at least from a layperson's perspective.   



clfsean said:


> Direct links though, that's the sketchy part. There are some CMA styles are brother/sister in development, but often don't even resemble the other in form/function. White Crane being one. There's Fuzhou variants, Taiwanese variants, Yong Chun, the branch in Ngo Cho, ... those are all shorthand too.
> 
> There's a lot of translation in technique going from one to another. For instance I never have done anything like a shuto/sudo in CMA. However... I have done plenty of bridges that could be changed into a shuto/sudo depending on how it was taught/learned. I've never done anything like an over head x-block. However I have done a bridge that covers my head that could be changed into an x-block depending on how it was taught/learned. I've never pounded a makiwara, but I have done plenty of work on dummies for conditioning & training. The list goes on as you can definitely see.
> 
> ...



Also, I appreciate your insight.  I hadn't thought of things in terms of same meaning, different technique.  I use the Soodo a great deal in my forms, however, my use of the "x-block"  (ssang soo sang dan mahkee) is different than I have seen many people use it in the past.  My blocking surface is not between the hands, but rather the left side of the X (right palm trapping against the left forearm).  This provides me control of the attacker's wrist.  I've also been taught that the X-block in forms like Chinto that come up and right back down are utilized as collar grabs.  




clfsean said:


> Does that help or obfuscate?
> 
> PS... my fav form in TKD was Kusanku when I earned my black. Then Bassai, Empi & Jitte. I know... Japanese, but that's how I learned it.



While I'm not sure if it helps a great deal, it certainly facilitates this discussion!  It has changed how I can approach this comparison, thank you.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 31, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> The 'spearhand' is supported with the other arm which always suggests a wrap of some type to me.  To me one interpretation would be the previous double lower motion was a parry which opened the attacker to a smack to the side of his head with the inner part of your right arm.  Think of a short circular clothesline strike.  The supporting arm in the motion really comes up to the opposite site of the attacker to keep him within your working area after the clothesline.  Next we wrap around his neck/head area and rock back with a wiggle of our hips as in the form.  This will drop the attacker.



I agree, the supporting arm does not add anything to a spearhand strike.  I have used it as a block with a strike to the solar plexus, and as a trap similar to what you have mentioned.


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## dancingalone (Jan 31, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> I wondered if half claw foot referred to some metaphor to understand technique, but now it might just be another way of explaining the style. Half white crane would be an interesting style to research for karate historians. A white crane could very well be described as a claw foot. Unfortunately, I don't have enough experience with kanji to verify this reading. I know some people though...
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk




Whatever you can find out and share would be appreciated!


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## Makalakumu (Jan 31, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Whatever you can find out and share would be appreciated!



Here is the message I sent to our schools Japanese Language sensei...



> Aloha Akiko
> 
> I have a kanji question regarding karate for you.  Years ago, it was  told to me by a student of Oyata Sensei, Soke of one of the most  traditional Okinawan ryu in the United States, that the kanji for  naihanchi no kata could be read as *Half Claw Foot*.  Recently, I read that naihanchi no kata was related to a Chinese system of martial arts called *Half White Crane*.  Therefore, I have two questions.
> 
> ...


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 1, 2012)

In the episode of Human Weapon on Shuri-Te, they suggest that the Shuri-Te lineage is the purest form of Te in existance, i.e. the least influenced by Kung Fu.  If this truly is the case, why are all the forms referenced or originated in CMA's?  Also, if this is the case it would explain why the movements' mechanics are so different than those seen in Naha and Tomari lines.


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## dancingalone (Feb 1, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> In the episode of Human Weapon on Shuri-Te, they suggest that the Shuri-Te lineage is the purest form of Te in existance, i.e. the least influenced by Kung Fu.  If this truly is the case, why are all the forms referenced or originated in CMA's?  Also, if this is the case it would explain why the movements' mechanics are so different than those seen in Naha and Tomari lines.



Have you ever read the Shotokan's Secrets, Benjamin?  The book by Bruce Clayton?  It's rather controversial but the author argues that Shuri-Te was created as a bodyguard style to protect the Ryukyu royal family and thus that's where the emphasis on long range techniques and one shot-one kill power came from.


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 1, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Have you ever read the Shotokan's Secrets, Benjamin?  The book by Bruce Clayton?  It's rather controversial but the author argues that Shuri-Te was created as a bodyguard style to protect the Ryukyu royal family and thus that's where the emphasis on long range techniques and one shot-one kill power came from.



No, I haven't, but I'll have to check that out.  Thanks for the reference.  That's an interesting viewpoint, and the Il-kyuk (one strike) philosophy is one the my Kwan Jang has always emphasized.. .


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## dancingalone (Feb 2, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> No, I haven't, but I'll have to check that out.  Thanks for the reference.  That's an interesting viewpoint, and the Il-kyuk (one strike) philosophy is one the my Kwan Jang has always emphasized.. .



It's a fast read.  Mr. Clayton has some bunkai at the end of the book, but I didn't pay much attention to it.  I found fascinating the first part where he writes about Commodore Perry's forced visit to Okinawa and where he unfolds his theory on the adaptation of Te by Matsumura Sokon Sensei and Itosu Anko Sensei to meet their bodyguarding needs.  Not sure whether Mr. Clayton's theory is 'right' or not, but I liked the book on its own merits.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 5, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Whatever you can find out and share would be appreciated!



Here was our Japanese teacher's reply.



> Ossu, John
> 
> You always challenge and inspire me with these questions! Which I like it.
> I think the Kanji used for these Kata depends on the schools and it seems like there are several
> ...



When we discussed this further, she showed me three different ways of writing the kata.  She surmised that different schools changed the kanji to suit their needs.  One version could be read like half claw foot.  She has no idea if this is an original version, but she suspects that the karate schools with more Chinese influence use the version in question.  I'm having a sense that I am way over my head on this and that my cultural understanding what is happening is extremely shallow.  The version she showed for her karate school is read as *Half Eight*. That's an important Zen number.  What if the kanji for the kata were changed to fit the individual Sensei's tastes?  Could you realistically draw any deeper meaning from the name at all?

It's an important issue that I'm not really skilled enough to discuss, but at least it appears on the surface that there is a connection between the names Half Claw Foot, Half White Crane, and the kata that we call Naihanchi.


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## chinto (Feb 5, 2012)

OK, boys and girls, here is my understanding.  Anko Itosu took from kusanku sho and kusanku dai, and created the Pinan kata's for the Okinawan School system in the very early 1900's.  It seems that he taught different people slightly different versions. since then other styles have copied the kata, some it seems with slight differentiation, such as the Tamari styles use..  Shobayashi Shorin Ryu has a  different take slightly then say Matsumura Seito, or Kobayashi.  as to Naihanchi kata, my understanding is that shorin ryu got that from nana, so I would say its a version of a chinese kata.  Chinto kata, was made by sohan 'bushi" Matsumura after he befriended a shipwrecked Chinese sailor. the sailor was stealing to survive and robbing to survive. Bushi Matsumura was sent to bring him in, and could not. so he befriended him, and learned from him. the Tamari version is very different then the shuri version.   Shobayashi Shorin Ryu teaches the Tamari, and Matsumura Seito teaches the shuri versions. However the main influences on  Okinawan Karate seem to be  southern White Crane systems, and Monkfist boxing, and chaun fa ( fist way ).  there may be some lesser influences from some other chinese systems but not nearly as much as those.


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 6, 2012)

chinto said:


> However the main influences on  Okinawan Karate seem to be  southern White Crane systems, and Monkfist boxing, and chaun fa ( fist way ).  there may be some lesser influences from some other chinese systems but not nearly as much as those.



This is what I always see references to.  However, what I am seeking is an example or comparison between these styles and the Shuri Te lineage.  We have examples to compare the Naha and Tomari Te to above mentioned Chinese systems, but personally, I have a hard time seeing a similarity between those Chinese systems and the Shuri line.


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 6, 2012)

chinto said:


> OK, boys and girls, here is my understanding.  Anko Itosu took from kusanku sho and kusanku dai...



Yes, I have read and I can see Kusanku in Itosu's Pinan katas.  I have also read reference to Channan/Chiang Nan kata being the other source that Itosu drew from when creating the Pinan kata set.  I am interested in discussing this form's roots and any information about this form.


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## dancingalone (Feb 6, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> This is what I always see references to.  However, what I am seeking is an example or comparison between these styles and the Shuri Te lineage.  We have examples to compare the Naha and Tomari Te to above mentioned Chinese systems, but personally,* I have a hard time seeing a similarity between those Chinese systems and the Shuri line*.



It's looking that way, isn't it, once we get past the rote history?  Let's take the discussion along another path.  Some of the Shorin-ryu styles actually teach Naihanchi as the first kata rather than the Pinan forms.  Do we see any real differences in outcome when we compare karate-ka who learn Naihanchi first vs. those that started with the Pinan?  Should there be a difference?  If so, how do we go about trying to research it and measure it?


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 6, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> It's looking that way, isn't it, once we get past the rote history?  Let's take the discussion along another path.  Some of the Shorin-ryu styles actually teach Naihanchi as the first kata rather than the Pinan forms.  Do we see any real differences in outcome when we compare karate-ka who learn Naihanchi first vs. those that started with the Pinan?  Should there be a difference?  If so, how do we go about trying to research it and measure it?



I don't know anyone personally that started their practice with Naihanchi.  However, I would imagine that there would be a completely different focus of foundational skills.  The front stance focused Kicho hyungs and Pyung Ahn hyungs really focus on the ground reaction force and hip snap power generation for striking and blocking.  The way in which I practice the Naihanchi forms focus on generating power from virtually no ground reaction force and very minimal waist/hip movement.  

This is doesn't even mention the range of combat discrepancies between the two form sets.  The Pyung Ahns are much more "long range" vs. the Naihanchi's "close quarter" combat techniques.  

One possible reason that I see for learning the Naihanchis after Pinans is that after years of developing power from waist snapping movements, you can generate a great deal of power with minimal movement, making the techniques in the Naihanchi forms more effective from the beginning.


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## dancingalone (Feb 6, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I don't know anyone personally that started their practice with Naihanchi.  However, I would imagine that there would be a completely different focus of foundational skills.  The front stance focused Kicho hyungs and Pyung Ahn hyungs really focus on the ground reaction force and hip snap power generation for striking and blocking.  The way in which I practice the Naihanchi forms focus on generating power from virtually no ground reaction force and very minimal waist/hip movement.
> 
> This is doesn't even mention the range of combat discrepancies between the two form sets.  The Pyung Ahns are much more "long range" vs. the Naihanchi's "close quarter" combat techniques.
> 
> One possible reason that I see for learning the Naihanchis after Pinans is that after years of developing power from waist snapping movements, you can generate a great deal of power with minimal movement, making the techniques in the Naihanchi forms more effective from the beginning.



I understand Shorinkan schools frequently teach Naihanchi ahead of the Pinan set.  As do the Okinawan Kenpo people I know.  I have observed the existence of close range practice in their students and I wonder if the early instruction of Naihanchi plays a leading role in that or whether it is merely an artifact or coincidence of earlier times.


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 6, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I understand Shorinkan schools frequently teach Naihanchi ahead of the Pinan set.  As do the Okinawan Kenpo people I know.  I have observed the existence of close range practice in their students and I wonder if the early instruction of Naihanchi plays a leading role in that or whether it is merely an artifact or coincidence of earlier times.



The only Shuri line we have locally is Matsubayashi Ryu, and they start with the Fukyugata, then Pinan, and then Naihanchi series.  I can see where the Okinawan Kenpo guys would benefit from Naihanchi first, since they tend to be more close range fighters.  It does bring to mind the "chicken and the egg" conundrum.  Are these forms practiced first because it is a more close range focused system?  Or is it a short range focused system because of the Naihanchi katas?  Or maybe just a coincidence (although I hardly doubt that it is a coincidence, at least in the early days of the ryu's inception).


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## chinto (Feb 7, 2012)

in Shobayashi Shorin Ryu  Naihachi katas are taught before the Pinan katas.  I took that before I started the Matsumura Seito to go along with it.  Matsumura seito is pure shuri-te. they teach Naihachi one kata at the same time as Pinan shodan, and Naihachi two kata when they teach pinan 2 and Naihachi 3, at the same time as Pinan 3, Then they teach last 2 Pinan kata after you know the 3 Naihachi kata.
shuri te teaches close in fighting as well as longer ranged, just as Goju teaches long range work to.  Tamari te, which Shobayashi Is about 80% Tamari, teaches both too. I do not know of any okinawan art that does not teach both. But like Goju, Tamari and Shuri is about getting in close and finishing the fight quickly.  Most people seem to learn to do tournament fighting, this tends to lean more towards long range fighting..  But there are a lot of close in techniques hidden in the kata of all the Okinawan styles.


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