# Testing



## Rainman (May 25, 2002)

Testing has its place.   Some people use it as something to remember, others view it as a right of passage.    Basically testing and ranking was an attempt to standardize skill and knowledge.   That is the idea of having an association and a board of blackbelts present for brown and above.    Having a well respected instructor sign his name to the diploma/certificate was to remove doubt about the students ability.   No top instructor worth his salt would marginalize his reputation buy endorsing a rank that was not agreed upon by the board.  

As far as the reality of this well...  Doug, Seig, Mr.C,  I agree with all of you.   How does this happen?   I would venture to say issues of trust, loyalty, and character demonstrated by yourself to a top instructor will get you what you need.   The trick is finding the guy that best works with your personality.   For me I'm a die hard AK'er  (American Kenpo Player) my teacher is world class.   I also enjoy my talks with Mr.C and Dr. Chapel-  they are great guys and are 2 very giving individuals- If you doubt that name any of the old guard- or new guard for that matter that are on the boards teaching AK.  That probably says something about their character... at least it does to me.


:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (May 25, 2002)

I agree totally that testing has it's place in the studio. I look at it as o.k. I've received this amount of material for the particular belt color or degree. After practicing for x amount of time it is then you look at yourself and your knowledge take the test & then see if you move on to the next set of requirements or stay where your at & keep practicing. I have never gone out of my way and bugged my instructor or insisted that I be tested for any belt no matter what level it was. I believe that is disrespectful to tell him/her when your ready for testing. (I believe there are ways to ask & not be disrespectful though). I actually told my instructor that I wanted to wait on a test just to get an instructor higher than he is to sit in and watch us test for our next belt. I didn't want to just test in front of him in fear of just passing or possibly failing. I personally wanted others there to actually know that I deserved to pass or fail. Either way I would accept the outcome. This is why I believe in a board testing that way it's not up to 1 individual but a series of people. If you pass then you know you deserved the rank. 
I've only had the ability to train with 3 first generation students in the AK system.  There's one guy that sticks out that has an awesome way of delivering the knowledge contained in AK and that's Mr. Conatser. I've trained for almost 13yrs. in various arts and have not seen anyone be able to pass on knowledge as well as he can. Mr. C is a great guy and all I can leave anybody with is if you get a chance to go to any seminar he is teaching at you'd better go.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## Ronin (May 25, 2002)

Have you ever been tested by Mr. Conatser?


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## jfarnsworth (May 25, 2002)

If your asking me- no I haven't.
Jason Farnsworth


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## Goldendragon7 (May 25, 2002)

It would be a cakewalk!

:asian: 

LOL otherwise you wouldn't be testing.:rofl:


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## jfarnsworth (May 26, 2002)

Man, I don't know I've seen your requirement list!!!!!!!
Jason Farnsworth


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## Goldendragon7 (May 26, 2002)

Whadda ya want........ good grammer or good taste?

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (May 26, 2002)

Actually, excellent instruction. I'd rather be a white belt in the ikko for 5 yrs. rather than fly through a martial art system.
Jason Farnsworth


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## Rainman (May 26, 2002)

> Man, I don't know I've seen your requirement list!!!!!!!



Well since it has been brought up-  What are some of your less than oridinary requirements for JI GD7?  Waitin' for sumpin' juuuisay!

 :asian:


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## GouRonin (May 26, 2002)

I like the idea that in the old days you got tossed a belt when the instructor thought you were ready. Personally I think it made the instructor more accountable for who had what rank.

I don't like tests. I don't do tests. When I am ready toss me the belt and we'll keep on working. I don't even wear a belt anymore because the art I am doing doesn't have them.

I don't have anyone I want to showcase what I can do nor do I have anyone that I want to show off for or impress, so if people think I'm gonna dance like some d@mn organ grinder's monkey they better think again.
:cuss:


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## Rainman (May 26, 2002)

By those ideas you would invalidate all testing.   Your issues seem to be with structure and authority therefore you did the right thing in finding an art/teacher that allows you your freedom.   All the way through school I had deadbeats for teachers until I got to college then I had 2 or 3  who spoke to me in my language.    It just doesn't work the way it should if someone is forcing you to shove a square peg in a round hole.


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## Klondike93 (May 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I like the idea that in the old days you got tossed a belt when the instructor thought you were ready. Personally I think it made the instructor more accountable for who had what rank.
> 
> ...



Well Gou that depends. I was talking with my instructor and apparently there were some people that were trying to structure Systema with belts and ranks and so forth. 

But I know your with Vlad so there are no belts, but there some out there trying.

:asian:


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## GouRonin (May 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> *By those ideas you would invalidate all testing.   Your issues seem to be with structure and authority therefore you did the right thing in finding an art/teacher that allows you your freedom.   All the way through school I had deadbeats for teachers until I got to college then I had 2 or 3  who spoke to me in my language.    It just doesn't work the way it should if someone is forcing you to shove a square peg in a round hole.   *



I'll be the first to admit that I have issues with authority. That's a given. I actually like a system with a military style regimented syllabus. However, I dislike the misuse of authority by those who think they know what they are doing vs those who do.

I agree that when things _"fit"_ then things work smoothly.


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## GouRonin (May 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> *Well Gou that depends. I was talking with my instructor and apparently there were some people that were trying to structure Systema with belts and ranks and so forth. But I know your with Vlad so there are no belts, but there some out there trying.*



Yeah, I heard about those guys. If they wanna do what they wanna do then it's no skin off my nose. I do what Vlad shows me and I run with his program because I like it.


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## Klondike93 (May 26, 2002)

From talking to my instructor Vlad's the best at it too. Although he did say Mikal is a tougher cookie than Vlad. He did say he's fun to train with, if you don't mind the bruises  


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 26, 2002)

Just how we define "testing" and another close term "Promotion".  We might also ask who runs the family the Father (title) or why does business have a President.  

To maintain order I think that the "rank" structure was invented...... although there could be a lot of discussion as to if it is really necessarily or not.  I personally think it is, but with much discussion.  

I agree with Doug in Part that when I think he is ready for a promotion..... and if he has done all that I want him to do... then he should get promoted..... question is..... should I just "throw him a belt" or "test" him.  Well, we really could go back and forth and bring up a lot of good points pro and con on both sides.  I have thought about and been involved in this for years.  All I can say without going into detail is that both sides have merit.  I actually do both at different times and with different people for different reasons.  

"Some" of those reasons I either "Promote or Test" someone include... 

attitude adjustment
self confidence
example
tradition
pressure/stress - control/conquest
camaraderie
humility
pride
ability

:asian:


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## Rainman (May 26, 2002)

> However, I dislike the misuse of authority by those who think they know what they are doing vs those who do.



That's a tough one.    Some people do their homework and some don't.    I think a lot of people have effective mixed up with efficient.   It's a legitimate complaint and one that has been circulating for a long time:idunno:.   I jumped off a building before I could fly and went splat.  Had to go back with my tail between my legs...  I suppose my teacher respected that and through countless hours of rolling tape, conversations that went to the wee hours of the morning and hitting the mat 7 days a week I know when someone has something offer and when they don't.   It's a very small # that is why so many go out side of AK.  They know they need and want more but have trouble finding it.   Always issues of money, power, and whatever the human condition can throw into the mix.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 26, 2002)

if you are saying that many instructors do not know what they are doing in many cases...... I think it is a classic case of mirroring and modeling the wrong models or incomplete models.... That's why I have a specific reason "why" I do everything I do...... Mr. Parker used to ask me after I explained "what" I was doing.... "WHY" I guess It sunk in ....... so I wouldn't be caught with my pants down a 2nd time.  LOL

:asian:


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## Dave Simmons (May 26, 2002)

I tend to agree with Dennis....regarding individuals and their progression learning and demonstrated skills in Kenpo. In some cases a more "traditional" testing is appropiate. However I prefer to promote the student in recognition completing another step of learning. Students are "energized" with this approach and they are ready for new challenges.

Regards,

Dave Simmons:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 27, 2002)

right students..... it can synergize your studio... yes I agree...........

:asian: 

ps hey some good action going on your chat room too eh!


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## Klondike93 (May 27, 2002)

What chat room?


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 28, 2002)

forum or message board..........
http://pub41.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=3453335269

:asian:


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## Kirk (May 28, 2002)

In a public school, most teachers know who knows the material
and who doesn't, before the test is even passed out.  But they
couldn't pass or fail a student without something to back it up.
It's a good CYO method, IMHO (but I'm not a teacher, nor am I
an instructor).  I have enough faith that if my instructor suddenly
started promoting when he felt I was ready, that I'd go with that.
Yet when I first started taking lessons, I didn't know him from 
Adam.  I'd need some verifiable proof that I was learning what
others were expected to know, and so on and so forth.  With my
limited knowledge considered, I prefer testing.


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## Seig (May 28, 2002)

I used to use testing strictly as a formality.  My students knew that if I told them to test, unless they completely freaked and bombed it, they were going to pass.  Unfortunately, that led to some rather nasty side effects.  I have students insisting on testing even though I have told them they are not ready.  Now I am going to have to fail a few.  I may go back to the days of promoting when I feel they have earned, without a test.  I have not really decided what to do yet.  I'll let you know.


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## Turner (May 28, 2002)

I agree with what someone else already said, whether or not you test depends on the person. I personally don't like the whole idea of testing. If you know the material, you know the material and you've earned your belt. It's a waste of the time to run through the material just to prove something the instructor should already know. 

However, if the student has trouble believing that s/he deserves the rank, testing is a great way of proving to themselves that they know the material.

People asking to test for rank is something that I frown upon. I know that there are instructors who just don't keep track of their students and so they expect their students to ask to test, but I don't agree with this approach. Asking to test is asking for rank and that is just rude. Only ask if you've spent twice as much time in grade as the average, just in case your instructor has forgotten about you, but even then don't come out and ask to test... just ask what you need to do to improve your techniques, forms and etc. I'd personally suggest that you not ask at all. Be happy learning the techniques that you already know. Most people will get bored after working the same techniques for a certain period of time, but don't allow that mindset to get ahold of you. Each time you should be excited for the opportunity to perfect the technique a little more.

But thats just me...


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## tonbo (May 28, 2002)

One point on testing that I don't think has been brought up here yet.....

Most students, at least at first, tend to "need" testing...it's the only way that they see that they are making progress.  Granted, you have quite a few adults who don't care about belts and who are just into the true "bones" of the style, but, for the most part, you are dealing with John and Jane Public, who think in terms of measurable progress.

Testing has some real advantages, especially for the set that needs rewards.  Dangling the carrot in front of their nose gives them the goal to shoot for, and a reason for learning what they are learning.  Don't get me wrong, I don't think that an instructor needs (or should!!) give out a belt to someone just to keep the money coming in.  However, belts are sometimes a good motivator to keep people on track.

Similarly, why do we have testing in schools?  Because we need a guage as to where students are, knowledge-wise.  You don't graduate from high school or college until you have proven that you have met the curriculum with sufficient skill.  Testing in MA schools isn't all that different.  If someone has no college degree, but can still solve physics equations, are they considered "uneducated"?  No, but unfortunately, the degree does carry a little more weight.  Our western mindset tends to follow the same thought.......belts good, give legitimacy.

I have always seen testing as positive, as long as it is reasonable.....3+ hour tests, insane requirements, etc are not needed.  Again, at our school, who goes to a belt "test" is decided LONG before the test, based on continuous performance and assessment in class.  The "test" is more of a formality, more for friends and family who can then see the result of a person's training.

Oh, geez.  Rambling again.  Sorry.....

Peace--

P.s.  GD7:  Can I give you a call when I am ready to test for my yellow??


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## Michael Billings (May 28, 2002)

I have mixed feelings regarding tests (acknowledging that a test is different from a "Promotion".)  I have seen some excellent 'tests', which were actually choriographed by one of the senior black belts in a school.  The students were sharp and very well prepared.  This was for Brown Belts only, by the way, quite a few of them.  They had stress, but there was no doubt about the results.  Nothing was asked of them that they had not prepared for.

I came up under a different system, where no matter how prepared you were, they would keep going until you reached your personal limit, plus a little bit ... or a lot.  I hated this!!!!!  Lots of anxiety and very little approval, if any, for a job well done.  I think that my instructor was just not the kind who gave praise often or easily.

I am also familiar with "Promoting" when a student is ready.  But not really comfortable with this as I like to make a big deal out of a promotion, and help make it an important milestone in a student's martial history.

Yes, I have tested students to exhaustion, and been tested that way.  But I have also given other students, in other circumstances, generous testing criteria.  I do not look for a chance to fail a student, and I generally will not let them test if they are not ready for it.  I give lots of pats on the back, hopefully, and encouragement is my main tool, not criticism.  

My difficulty comes, (and Dennis you might be able to help me on this), is when I have a student who has learned all the material, works hard in class, helps others, but is still moving at a Primitive level at Blue Belt, occassionally she is Mechanical.  

She wants to go for Green, and I explained she needed to work more on how she moved, and gave her some specifics.  She also has been coming to Family Class for 3+ years, with 2 different children who have cycled in and out, but she stayed consistant.  The problem is I have a Blue Belt moving like an Orange Belt, and progress would be slow even in adult classes for her.  At some point she has to be able to actually defend herself, or I have to feel comfortable that she can, since that is my primary concern and value for my students.  Blue-Green-Early Browns, for me is the Mechanical Stage, admitidly a "fast mechanical" for Brown, with maybe a little Spontaineous level creeping in.

Quandry for me and it arises with my older, or very young students, since I do not have a different curriculum for kids.  Need to look at this also at some point.

Tests, hmmmm.  They give me something quantifiable to share with the student, in addition to positive reinforcement and the self-esteem and self-confidence that grows from this.

-Michael
UKS-Texas


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## Nightingale (May 28, 2002)

Personally, I want to test for my belts.  Personally, since I have never really been considered "good at sports"  or athletic or whatever, I need that validation.  I have a lot of confidence in my instructor, and I know that he only tells us to test when he knows we're going to pass unless we do something really, really stupid like forget short form one or something equally idiotic, and I've never seen someone ask to be tested for the next rank, and I think if they did and weren't ready, the answer would either be "no" or "you can if you want to, but unless you really suprise me, you're not going to pass, so you might as well save the money for the test fee until you're capable of passing it"  

I have tested for every rank except green belt.  My green belt was just awarded to me, and every time I put it on, there was this little doubt in the back of my mind wondering whether or not I really deserved it, and that didn't go away until I tested for my brown belt. I felt a lot more comfortable in my rank as a brown belt than I had as a green belt because of the test, because I had been given an opportunity to prove to myself as well as the people judging the test that I deserved it.

For me, a test is a chance for me to prove to myself that I deserve the next rank, although I can't say I'm actually looking forward to my black belt test...


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## tonbo (May 28, 2002)

I guess a lot also depends on how students are set up to test.

Is the test the determining factor?  If you live through the test, do you get your rank?  Are the testers "pre-screened"--i.e., do you have tab/stripe evaluations before tests?  

As I mentioned before somewhere, at our school, students *can* test for possible "promotion" every five weeks.  Basically, we have the belts, and then we have "tabs" or "stripes" between belts:  each "between" (up to Black Belts, anyway) consists of two black tabs and one red one.  When you test for and receive your first black tab, it shows you have passed off half of the material towards your next belt; testing for and receiving the second black tab shows you have passed off all of the material for your next belt.  After the second black tab, you have a minimum of five weeks to "polish" your material before testing for your red tab.  The red tab is the "ticket" to the next belt test.

All tab evaluations are done in class for the lower belts, and in a special evaluation for green and higher.

Again, the trick here is that the instructors are pretty much *constantly* evaluating students; the evaluations are so that the student can see their progress or lack thereof, and also so that instructors can more easily determine those that may need more individualized attention (those with long times inbetween tabs, where you know they should be progressing faster).  The tab evaluations are mostly formality--they train the students to expect the "pressure" of the belt test and to work under "actual test conditions".  In most cases, if a student is giving their best and they know their material, they will do fine.  They also drive their testing schedule, for the most part.  If a student doesn't want to test for a tab, they are not forced to.  That way, THEY determine when they feel "right", and can progress on their own schedule.  (This doesn't always work out at higher levels....occasionally, people get "volunteered" to test, when the instructor knows they are ready).

The only people who get to go to the tests, then, are the people who are ready.  They have earned their ticket, and when they earn their red tab, they have essentially already earned their belt.  The actual belt "test" is a bit scary, but not a deadly endurance test.  The "scary" part is that you don't know just *which* techniques will be required to be done, or what you may have to do as an individual (techniques/forms).  Also, it is a bit scary for some to be doing techniques/forms in "public"--i.e., with parents and friends present.  Again, however, you have to REALLY screw up (stand totally still, sit down, pass out, etc.) to not get your belt at this point.  Tests are all of a set length--everything up to Black is only about 45 minutes long.  Black Belt tests tend to run about an hour or an hour and a half, depending on the number of students, and is more "scripted", so that individual skills can be highlighted.  These are also more of an "Advanced Belt Test", where brown ranks can also be awarded (thus, you get people going for brown and up in these tests, but they are mostly geared toward the Black and upper Black ranks).

The formality is, like Nightingale pointed out, a major thing for most people.  Feeling like they "worked for" or "won" their belt is a major consideration.  They also like the fact that there is some ceremony to it.  

When I earned my green belt, it was also like Nightingale said....I was REALLY disappointed with my test.  When the test let out, I approached one of the Black Belts and told him I didn't think I performed well enough to earn my belt.  He told me, "Don't worry about it.  You earned your belt over the last few years.  Today we just let you pick it up.  We know how you move, and you wouldn't be here if you weren't ready."   Made all the difference to me, and I was able to happily wear it after that.

Peace--


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## Nightingale (May 28, 2002)

I had the ceremony for my green belt, just not the test itself. My instructor told me flat out that I'd earned it and I deserved it, but I still felt a little funny every time I put it on, because even though I may have earned it in his eyes, I hadn't earned it in mine.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 28, 2002)

so if you really feel that way..... then work extra hard and be that much better for your next promotion....... whenever that may be.

Always remain a student....... no matter how well you feel you did...... there is always more to learn....

:asian:


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## Nightingale (May 28, 2002)

The people I learn so much from now are the white belts... They ask me questions that I've never thought of, and I either have to stop, think, and figure out the answer, or I have to tell them I'll get back to them and go find the answer myself.


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## Seig (May 29, 2002)

And THAT is the first step in becoming a Teacher!


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## tonbo (May 29, 2002)

More truth could not be spoken than that.

There is so much to learn out there that it is hard to even begin.....to know what you don't know, so to speak.  Just finding *that* much out can be daunting.  And, given the ladder of success, some people don't even want to climb it, others make it halfway and claim success--it's the rare few who realize that they have to go *all* the way up to get the full experience.

I'll say it again.....after getting my Black, I in NO way felt that I had reached the "top".  Not even close.  The way I look at it, I have now proven that I am willing to learn, so now maybe I can start learning the "good stuff".  More often than not, I walk out of my class shaking my head and laughing, because I have seen new things in a technique or in sparring....things that were always there, but I hadn't seen them.  Maybe I didn't know what to look for, or how to look for it, but now.....

I love being a student.  I love the learning.  Best of all, I love the sense of accomplishment and wonder that I get when something new is "revealed".  All these lightbulbs going off.....

I think the best part of the whole process is when I have learned something well (and correctly!!) enough to pass it on to someone else.  Watching their eyes light up as I know mine did is really rewarding.  Ah, the joys of teaching......!!!

Peace--


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## Nightingale (May 29, 2002)

its great when you see the lightbulb finally go on...  the kids get a huge smile...its the most rewarding thing in the world.


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## tonbo (May 29, 2002)

It is very rewarding to see lightbulbs, no doubt.

The adults are fun to watch, because they get a little smile and most of the time will nod their head.  Occasionally, they will respond with a "cool" or "nice" or something like that as well.

Kids, however, most often act like they just got a Christmas present.  They smile REAL big, give an emphatic "COOOL!" or "That's AWESOME!" kind of answer, and then want to play with the new "toy".  Always makes me laugh....

Peace--


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## Kirk (May 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *It is very rewarding to see lightbulbs, no doubt.
> 
> ...



Then at 33, call me a kid


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## Rob_Broad (May 29, 2002)

I believe that a student should never fail a test.  they should never be allowed to grade until they are ready.  The testing proceedure should be a time for them to showcase what the have learned, not some grotesquely formal function where the person is almost ready to faint.

People start training for various reasons, but they continue training because it is fun.  we shouldn't make it such an arduaous event that some people quit for fear fo failure, it is our job to uplift them not compound their fears.


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## satans.barber (May 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bonehead _
> 
> *I believe that a student should never fail a test.  they should never be allowed to grade until they are ready.  The testing proceedure should be a time for them to showcase what the have learned, not some grotesquely formal function where the person is almost ready to faint.*



Faint, I should be so lucky, I got worked so hard at my last grading (which wasn't even a  proper grading, we were just going through the motions with everyone else for practice) that I was sick 

We'd done a load of sparring for a good while, then we had 30 second rest and went straight into 2 minute rounds (2 mins hands, 2 mins legs, 2 mins elbows and knees and then 2 mins everything to finsih). Phil was holding the pads for me on the last ones and he started running backwards around the hall and I was chasing him trying to hit the pads, that was it. My stomach knotted up and I had to run out of the fire door and vomit.

It was terribly embarrasing and nobody else did it (or has done before) so I wasn't (and aren't) very happy about it. Although Glen said he did it in his grading at that level and Bod did as well, although I wasn't there.

Hopefully I'll be fitter for when I grade for black belt, but I was pretty fit then and I don't feel /that/ different, so I'm none too happy about it. Much more worried about the fitness and stamina than I am about my ability to do the techniques, which I'm sure shouldn't be the case.

Ian.


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## Nightingale (May 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bonehead _
> 
> *I believe that a student should never fail a test.  they should never be allowed to grade until they are ready.  The testing proceedure should be a time for them to showcase what the have learned, not some grotesquely formal function where the person is almost ready to faint.
> 
> *



My instructor never asks people to test unless he is certain they're going to pass. However, I've seen people really mess up and not pass (green belts getting flustered and forgetting orange belt techniques and short 1, or something silly like that), or they get cocky, knowing that in the instructor's mind, they've already passed.  He usually tacks their belts on the wall and retests them in a week or so, and then they take life more seriously and pass. 

 In the studio, in class, sure, you can do all your techniques and forms, and you know everything you ought to for your next belt.  A test looks at can you perform under a bit of pressure, another form of training.  Can you still do your technique when its a very intimidating black belt throwing a punch just a little harder than usual, with five more standing around you, arms crossed, just looking...mean.  If you can do it in that situation with that kind of distraction, you can probably do it in the street, and kenpo is meant for street self defense.  It doesn't make any sense to never test/work under pressure, because then when the pressure is really on, you've never experienced any kind of real intimidation factor, you freeze up.  I am really grateful for the chance to work with a lot of intimidation, because when I faced it in the street, it was that familiar feeling of dread, of what is this guy gonna do, and because of my tests, I'd had a little bit of experience dealing with feelings that could have been paralyzing, but because they were familiar, I was able to react instead of freeze.  

dunno if that makes any sense...


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## tonbo (May 30, 2002)

> Then at 33, call me a kid



Okay, you're a kid.  

I'm 34, and I'm right there with ya.  When I learn something new (every class!!!) I always wind up laughing about it and I can barely keep my excitement hidden.  I also then try to use that new, magical insight as often as possible.  I also have to go write it down after class.....and I find myself smiling and laughing about it when I do that, too.

And I have been known to express my feelings about the neat stuff in emphatic ways.  Our whole class does.  It is really kind of funny to have an instructor show a Black Belt class a new "twist" and have the whole front row say things like, "SWEET", or "OH, yeah", or something similar.  Like Christmas?  Definitely.

Peace--


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## Michael Billings (May 30, 2002)

Satans.Barber,

Don't feel bad about blowing chunks.  Back in the early 80's I did the same thing on a green belt test.  We tested for over 1-1/2 hours then I got to fight the entire sparring class.  We are talking about 12 people, mainly brown and green belts in a very physical school.  

That was harder than my Black in terms of physical exhaustion.  Or my Brown, when after basics, techniques and forms, we got to fight 3 single opponent rounds, 2 double opponent rounds, then one triple opponent round, and finish it all off by doing Long Form 4.  At times I swear I was punching, but my friends said my arms were just sorta swinging side to side and a well armed cockroach could have taken me down.

Nice to have friends, huh?  By the way, I do not test my students this strenuously, I don't think? But they are definitly tired when we are done and they have earned their new rank.

Michael 
United Kenpo Systems


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## Kirk (May 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



hehehe ... do you grunt or groan with each step of a technique?
While working with a partner, I can't help but "unh unh unh" as
I'm executing a technique! :iws:


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## Robbo (May 30, 2002)

There is alao a question of pacing yourself. I don't care how in shape you are if you go full out for the first 1/2 hour you are going to fade. Be aware of your limitations, always try to push them of course but be aware of how fast you can expend that energy and how fast you can recover it.

When I was training for my black belt tests I found that no matter how much in shape I was I could wind myself if I go too excited and started going nuts on everything. The flipside of all that training is that it allowed me to recover quickly when there was a chance for a rest. 3-5 min and I'd be ready to rock and roll again.

In my present pitiful condition I performed my weapons forms the other night (4) once slow and low and once with performance intensity and I felt that for the rest of the night.

I know instructors push people because many people don't know thier limits and are surprized at how much they can do if pushed. I'd rather be aware of my limits through constant intense training and pace myself to those limits in a testing situation. Keep in mind I don't mean that you can be lazy and dawdle through the grading, just don't let yourself get to that can't lift my arms to block stage.

Thanks,
Rob

P.S. My first degree test was  2 X 12hrs, if you didn't pace yourself.....well you get the picture.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _*
> Don't feel bad about blowing chunks.  Back in the early 80's I did the same thing on a green belt test.  We tested for over 1-1/2 hours then I got to fight the entire sparring class, 12 people, mainly brown and green belts in a very physical school.  At times I swear I was punching, but my friends said my arms were just sorta swinging side to side and a well armed cockroach could have taken me down.
> *



Man, You had it rough!

:rofl:


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## GouRonin (May 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _
> *P.S. My first degree test was  2 X 12hrs, if you didn't pace yourself.....well you get the picture. *



Yeah, I can see the importance of having a testing that long and gruelling because all my fights have always gone for 2 and a half hours.

Of course the remaining 2 hours and 28 minutes were spent on drinking with my friends afterwards.

Again, my sarcasm is just biting isn't it?


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## Goldendragon7 (May 31, 2002)

right here
:moon: :moon: :moon: :moon: :moon: :moon: :moon:


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## GouRonin (May 31, 2002)

But Mick Jagger and Steven Tyler's lips together  don't even have a chance of coming close to covering that butt of yours for a kissing!


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## Goldendragon7 (May 31, 2002)

there are seconds........:rofl:


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## Seig (May 31, 2002)

Considering that most street fights last no more than 30 seconds, I only have to be in better shape than you for 30 seconds.  Of course, that is assuming that my skills far outstrip yours.  This is not meant as an attack or demeaning comment to anyone on this board.  That is what I say to people that comment on martial artists not being olympic quality athletes their whole lives.


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## Nightingale (May 31, 2002)

gosh, your black belt test was only 2.5 hours? my brown belt test was 3.5 hours... sigh...not looking forward to black belt test...


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## tonbo (May 31, 2002)

My actual "test" was about 2.5 years long.  Does that count?

For my "test", I was reviewed during every class, pretty much.  I was asked a whole slew of "why"s, shown whole new ways of moving, and given more than one whack to my head during endurance sparring sessions.

Now the "ceremony", on the other hand, where I presented my katas, did techniques, received my belt, etc.  was only about an hour long, maybe a little over.

My wife's Black Sash test (for Tai Chi) was something like 4 hours, where they did the whole test outside:  an endurance hike, techniques and forms, basic survival skills, more techniques and forms, more forms, etc.

Personally, I don't understand the lengthy tests.  Yes, a test ought to be difficult, but not impossible.  After all, the real testing is done every class period, not one final shot at the "end".....

Peace--


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 1, 2002)

Same here - Except the pre-test portion was about 12 hours and the test was only about 8 hours. This was in the mid 70's.



> _Originally posted by Robbo _
> 
> *
> P.S. My first degree test was  2 X 12hrs, if you didn't pace yourself.....well you get the picture. *


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 2, 2002)

all hooked up on the length of this event.............  As I recall many of my tests Orange - Black were anywhere  from 1/2 hour to 3 hours...... but the length didn't really matter.  It was all about showing the material that the Instructor or Board wanted to see.

Whatever the amount of time needed was what it took.   Every test I had was different.   Here are some of the different themes of my testing.........

1)  Everything that I had learned to date (All Levels)
     Sparring

2)  All Basics    (all levels)
     Creed, Sayings & Pledges
     Select Techniques, Forms, & Sets (all levels)
     No Sparring

3)  Select Basics
     Creed, Select Sayings & Pledges
     Select Techniques, Forms, & Sets (various levels)
     Sparring

4)  Creed
     Select Basics (all levels)
     All Self Defense Techniques solo and with partner
     Few Select Main Forms
     No sparring

5)  Creed, Sayings, & Pledges
     Select Basics (mostly kicks)
     Various Techniques (various levels)
     All Forms & sets to date
     Sparring

6)  Blindfolded thru entire test
     Creed, Sayings, & Pledges
     Select Grab Attacks with attacker (various levels)
     All Forms & sets to date

7)  Creed, Sayings, & Pledges
      Select Basics (all levels)
      Various Physical Exercises thrown in between 
      categories such as push ups, sit ups, jumping 
      jacks, jumping rope, 200 speed punches on bag, 
      100 power punches on bag, etc.....
      Select  Forms & sets (all levels)
      All Techniques (all levels)
      Sparring with Partner

Those  are just a few, you can make several different combinations of material depending on the individual student.  I don't particularly like extremely long tests..... Mr. Parker didn't either... LOL several times we have had to wake him up.   :rofl: 

:asian:


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## satans.barber (Jun 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Blindfolded thru entire test
> *



Really? I didn't think people actually did that outside of low budget martial arts films!

Ian.


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 2, 2002)

I frequently have my students practice their forms blindfolded and some of them have even performed their form blinded for competition. But I've never been tested or have tested my students blind folded. Interesting idea!

Re: We seem to be...... 
quote: Originally posted by Goldendragon7 

Blindfolded thru entire test 



Really? I didn't think people actually did that outside of low budget martial arts films! 

Ian.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *all hooked up on the length of this event.............  As I recall many of my tests Orange - Black were anywhere  from 1/2 hour to 3 hours...... but the length didn't really matter.  It was all about showing the material that the Instructor or Board wanted to see.
> 
> ...




I have to agree with the Golden Dragon,
I have had longer tests of a few hours, when I was 
being reviewed for everything up to that rank and
other tests that were about 30 - 45 minutes
if I was only being asked specific details for
a specific Rank.

I even had the privilege of testing with others
once where I was kept being asked to be the
attacker for the other guys only after one or two
demonstrations myself. I thought I was doing
horrible and I was concerned. Later I found out
that they instructors were happy with my movements
and they wanted to see more of the other guys.

So, I re-iterate GoldenDragon in that a test is
a demonstration of what the instructors wish to 
see.

Just my thoughts, Have a nice day everyone.

Rich


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## Klondike93 (Jun 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> Those  are just a few, you can make several different combinations of material depending on the individual student.  I don't particularly like extremely long tests..... Mr. Parker didn't either... LOL several times we have had to wake him up.   :rofl:
> ...




Sounds like another Mr.Parker story about to get posted   


:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 2, 2002)

My first instructor always made a big production of tests.  he already knew whether the student would pass or fail but he wanted to add to the tension.  He always did the grading during regular class time so you performed everything in front of all the other students, but only tested one person in a night.  he said everybody could learn somethng from a grading, and that way you always had fresh Uke's.  

My brown belts tests were about 2 hours long each and that was before the written portions.  I remember the day I tested for my 1st degree Brown belt, we had just finished the belt ceremony and I recieved my kick , when he asked me what my first degree black Belt thesis was going to be about.  He wanted to know then that  way he could also do research to see what I might have missed.

When it came time for my 1st Degree Black Belt my instructor asked everyone to clear their saturday to assist him.  The test was 6 hours long and we went over everything form yellow to black, all the forms the self defense techniques.  he had me teach a class during my test and he acted like to worst student ever to see how I would handle the situation.  He then picked apart my thesis for the last 2 hours of the test and we went over short form  one as many ways as possible.  All in all the test lasted 6 hours, most of the other students were completely exhausted.  They had never seen anything like that befroe since I was his first Black Belt.  I was ready to jog across town twice as he laid the Black Belt in front of me.

My second degree Black Belt test lasted maybe 30 minutes.  He knew I had the material down and we did the test more or less at full speed and great control.  The next day he asked me how i had enjoyed the last 8 yrs training with him, I replied I loved it.  he tossed me the keys to the place and said the school was all mine and he would only train me privately from then on.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 3, 2002)

I never got not school!  Damn!


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## Seig (Jun 3, 2002)

My old instructor offered me his school when I was a second dan.  At the time it was what I wanted; however, with the familial responsibilities I had at the time, I had to refuse.  It was a definate blow.


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