# From Chinese to Empty - Why the change



## Cayuga Karate (Jun 14, 2012)

In another thread, Chris Hayes wrote:



> the overall feel I get from the [1936] meetings minutes are that the art had been growing in popularity, but there was some confusion as to what it was, based on the name "China Hand". In other words, people thought it was a Chinese martial art, rather than an Okinawan one, so part of the reason for the name change was to alleviate this confusion. Another part of it was to try to begin a "unification" of karate, removing the separation between styles (Funakoshi, among others, was a supporter of the idea that there really aren't, or shouldn't be different karate systems, there should just be "karate"), and the Okinawan membership moved that the name change be taken on universally. The move away from a reference to China in the name wasn't anything to do with national pride, or shame, but more about the confusion the name was having. Even on Okinawa, Fukushima notes, the kanji "China Hand" make sense to those who already know what karate is, but not to others. It's also noted (by Shimabukuro) that the term "Tode" (which, really, is just an alternate pronunciation of the kanji that read "China Hand", as shown in an earlier post of mine) was used to show which of the arts were brought over from China, and "Te" was used to show the arts that developed on Okinawa. By that token, it's also more plausible that the name change was to show (again) a separation of origin, coming from either Okinawa, or newly developed in Japan, as opposed to China (again, nothing to do with shame of occupational action... knowing some of the stories that have come out of such events [meaning the occupation of Manchuria], such shame just wasn't as much of a factor).



Let's start with a couple of questions to Chris:

When you say "_people thought it was a Chinese martial art_", are you referring to Okinawans or Japanese? Did the Okinawans of the time, who called it "China hand" consider it purely an Okinawan art, or did they believe that it was in part, perhaps in large part, a Chinese art?

When you write "_The move away from a reference to China in the name wasn't anything to do with national pride, or shame, but more about the confusion the name was having_." Do you think the timing of the Japanese authorities to Japan to change the name, less than a year before a massive invasion of China, isn't the least bit suspect as a potential factor in the change? At that time, the Japanese were spreading this art throughout school systems as part of Physical education to the same high-school and college students that would be drafted as soon as they graduated. 

-Cayuga Karate


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## SuperFLY (Jun 14, 2012)

to my knowledge after reading Gichin Funakoshi's autobiography a few times (_Karate-Do: My Way of Life_)..

Okinawans actually took offence to the change in name and some say that's the reason Funakoshi spent the rest of his life in Tokyo. a lot of the original origins of karate are lost to time, some believe (and this seems likely) that bodhidharma was a huge influence in developing the original karate and ironically, although being indian, he was mostly known for teaching the Buddhist monks how to fight (birth of kunf-fu/chinese boxing) and as there was a huge Buddhist following in Okinawa (Funakoshi's wife to name one) it stands to reason the original linage came from this source and they called it 'china hand' out of some form of respect.

people forget that Okinawa is smack in the middle between china and japan. influences from both cultures would have shaped theirs. Funakoshi was a huge fan of chinese poetry as an example.

this is just my guestimation of course.

the change to empty hand had nothing to do with the japanese government and was Funakoshi's wish to change it. he felt not only would the more neutral name seem more accessible to the populous (as for many years martial arts were a very closed 'club' and no japanese person would think he would b permitted to learn a 'chinese' art.) but also that it better represented what karate was about. un-armed combat.

Funakoshi does make reference to the military learning karate (more the navy - he had a friend who was an admiral who asked to be taught and that his troops also learn) but doesnt say anything about being told/forced to make name changes or take any direction from any government body.


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## TimoS (Jun 14, 2012)

SuperFLY said:


> the change to empty hand had nothing to do with the japanese government and was Funakoshi's wish to change it.



As has already been pointed out, several times, as it happens, Funakoshi didn't have anything to do with the name change.


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

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## punisher73 (Jun 14, 2012)

TimoS said:


> As has already been pointed out, several times, as it happens, *Funakoshi didn't have anything to do with the name change*.



That would be an incorrect statement.  Funakoshi wasn't the only one that wanted it true, but at the meeting he was one of the vocal ones about the change.  Motobu, amongst others was very against it.  

One of the reasons why people assume that it was Funakoshi that made the change, instead of just being one person to lobby for it, is the fact that he then changed all of the kata names.  Funakoshi took the traditional okinawan kata names and then tried to rename them all in Japanese.  Again, in an attempt to market karate as a japanese thing and remove other traces.  Some of the name changes stuck and others didn't. Interesting to note that of the core 15 katas of Shotokan, only two (Jitte and Jion) didn't get a name change.

Heian Katas = Pinan 
Tekki Katas = Naihanchi
Bassai = Passai
Gankaku = Chinto
Empi = Wanshu
Kwanku (Kanku) = Kusanku
Hangetsu = Seisan
Meikyo = Rohai. 
Matsukaze = Wankan (Okinawan, name change didn't stick)
Hotaku = Gojushiho (name change didn't stick)
Hakko= Sochin (name change didn't stick)
Shokyo = Ji'in (name change didn't stick)
Nijushiho = Niseishi
Jitte kata was already a japanese name for a weapon resembling the Sai


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## TimoS (Jun 14, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> That would be an incorrect statement.  Funakoshi wasn't the only one that wanted it true, but at the meeting he was one of the vocal ones about the change


If you're referring to the 1936 meeting of the karate masters, where the name was officially changed, Funakoshi wasn't even present at the meeting.
http://seinenkai.com/articles/sanzinsoo/1936.html


> Karateka:  Chomo Hanashiro, Chotoku Kyan, Choki Motobu, Chojun Miyagi, Juhatsu Kyoda, Choshin Chibana, Shinpan Shiroma, Chotei Oroku, Genwa Nakasone


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## Chris Parker (Jun 15, 2012)

Cayuga Karate said:


> Let's start with a couple of questions to Chris:



Not a problem.



Cayuga Karate said:


> When you say "_people thought it was a Chinese martial art_", are you referring to Okinawans or Japanese?



I'm referring to the Okinawans, as that is the reference made in the 1936 meeting.



Cayuga Karate said:


> Did the Okinawans of the time, who called it "China hand" consider it purely an Okinawan art, or did they believe that it was in part, perhaps in large part, a Chinese art?



No, I think they were more than aware of the Chinese heritage of the art.



Cayuga Karate said:


> When you write "_The move away from a reference to China in the name wasn't anything to do with national pride, or shame, but more about the confusion the name was having_." Do you think the timing of the Japanese authorities to Japan to change the name, less than a year before a massive invasion of China, isn't the least bit suspect as a potential factor in the change? At that time, the Japanese were spreading this art throughout school systems as part of Physical education to the same high-school and college students that would be drafted as soon as they graduated.



No, I don't think that's really a major factor, when it all comes down to it. Firstly, it was a decision between karate exponents and instructors, not a governmental decision. Secondly, it was a new art that had been introduced from outside anyway, trying to tell people it was Japanese in origin wasn't really an option. There are also plenty of arts whose Chinese origins haven't really been shied away from, including some very "Japanese" arts, such as the Akiyama lines of Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, whose origins teach that the founder learnt martial arts in China, and brought the three techniques he learnt back to Japan, where he developed the art into Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu. I really do read it as a way of avoiding confusion about whether the art came from Okinawa, or directly from China. 

One question for you, though... Who is Chris Hayes?


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## punisher73 (Jun 15, 2012)

TimoS said:


> If you're referring to the 1936 meeting of the karate masters, where the name was officially changed, Funakoshi wasn't even present at the meeting.
> http://seinenkai.com/articles/sanzinsoo/1936.html



Sorry, didn't proof read my stuff.  Funakoshi was not at the meeting, he had left for Japan already by the 1920's.  Funakoshi did lobby for changing it, but was not at the meeting.  I also wrote Motobu instead of Miyagi in a hurry for being against it.

Reading between the lines of that meeting, it still seems as though the name change from "china" to "empty" had to do with making it more popular with the japanese and not due to any confusion of what the name meant.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 15, 2012)

When I was on Okinawa in the early mid-60s, I read a really large tome on Okinawan history.  Okinawa was its own country for a very long time, but under the Chinese 'Protection.'  This presumably gave them protection, certainly it prevented them from having to fight China.  For that priviledge they paid tribute once a year.  Along with the tribute ship(s), they were allowed to send trade ships.  That allowed them to make money as well.

As China got weaker, and so did the Okinawans, and the Japanese got stronger.  Internal strife allowed the Japanese to take over Okinawa and force the payment of tribute to them as well.  The Okinawans were forbidden from telling the Chinese so the Japanese wouldn't have to defend their presence in Okinawa.  That meant they were still paying the Chinese, and then had to begin paying the Japanese.  Bandrupted them.  They also had their weapons taken away according to other reading I have seen.

They took over Korea the same way about 200 years later.  They also required them to take Japanese family names and speak only Japanese, just as with the Okinawans.  Due to losing WWII, they didn't have the same amount of time to pull all that off as they did with Okinawa.  The Koreans retained more of their culture.

All that to wonder; what is the likelyhood that Okinawan masters didn't want to admit having no control, or the Japansese didn't want to show that to the world yet, but were forcing the Okinawans to become more and more Japanese?  Any who are more read on the Okinawan/Japanese history read anything or care to speculate on that?


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 15, 2012)

Just a side note, perhaps, hands of China, and, hands emanating from the center, mean the same thing.  I'm just saying.
Sean


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## TimoS (Jun 15, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> Just a side note, perhaps, hands of China, and, hands emanating from the center, mean the same thing.  I'm just saying.
> Sean


I don't think that applies here. If my very limited Japanese is correct, center is written &#20013;, where as the China in karate is/was written using &#21776;


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 15, 2012)

TimoS said:


> I don't think that applies here. If my very limited Japanese is correct, center is written &#20013;, where as the China in karate is/was written using &#21776;


Ok, look at it this way. On the west coast of the United States, every one calls soda, Pop, and on the east coast every one calls, pop, a Soda. 
Sean


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## clfsean (Jun 15, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> Ok, look at it this way. On the west coast of the United States, every one calls soda, Pop, and on the east coast every one calls, pop, a Soda.
> Sean



Ummm... Nope. Everything is a coke &amp; you just pike flavors... Mr pub, fanta orange, Pepsi, etc....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos &amp; brevity of posts.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 16, 2012)

When karate was assimilated in a different culture, they changed it to fit their expectations.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 16, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> Just a side note, perhaps, hands of China, and, hands emanating from the center, mean the same thing.  I'm just saying.
> Sean



Uh, no. I get where you're coming from, but no.



TimoS said:


> I don't think that applies here. If my very limited Japanese is correct, center is written &#20013;, where as the China in karate is/was written using &#21776;



Yep, the character there (&#20013 is pronounced "Chu", or "Naka". Although it should be pointed out that &#20013;&#33775; in modern usage refers to China (specifically the "middle Kingdom"), which is sometimes shortened to just &#20013; (although the character &#33775; can more literally mean "China"), the term used in older writings for karate is &#21776; as Timo showed. So I get where you got it from, Sean, but that's not part of it.


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## TimoS (Jun 16, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Although it should be pointed out that &#20013;&#33775; in modern usage refers to China


:-offtopic but I thought China was written &#20013;&#22269;


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## Chris Parker (Jun 17, 2012)

It can be, that refers to "Middle Country" (Chugoku), as opposed to "Middle Kingdom", which is more literally China. But Chugoku can be used as well, in more "general" language.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Jun 17, 2012)

The simple reason is that the Japanese people wanted a sense of nationalism, and the Japanese people are prejudiced towards the Chinese culture and its people. So there were many changes to the Okinawan fighting art when it made its way to mainland Japan in the 1920's.

To-de (China- hand) was changed to Karate (Empty Hand). A training uniform was implemented along with a belt ranking system. The kata names mostly in Shotokan was changed from names named after Chinese Martial Artists or of Okinawan dialect to Japanese names.

Wanshu - Enpi
Kushanku (dai/sho) - Kanku (dai/sho)
Passai (dai/sho) - Bassai (dai/sho)
Naihanchi - Tekki 

Here is an article written by Jesse called The Birth of Today's Karate:
http://www.karatebyjesse.com/?p=2242


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## punisher73 (Jun 18, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> Ok, look at it this way. On the west coast of the United States, every one calls soda, Pop, and on the east coast every one calls, pop, a Soda.
> Sean



Even that differs.  I grew up in Michigan, and we always said "pop".  When I went down to Indiana, most said "soda".  My wife lived in Texas and they all said "coke" for pop/soda, no matter what kind, then you told them what kind you wanted...mountain dew, dr. pepper, pepsi, etc.


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## clfsean (Jun 18, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Even that differs.  I grew up in Michigan, and we always said "pop".  When I went down to Indiana, most said "soda".  My wife lived in Texas and they all said "coke" for pop/soda, no matter what kind, then you told them what kind you wanted...mountain dew, dr. pepper, pepsi, etc.



Your wife was raised proper... hehehe


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 18, 2012)

clfsean said:


> Your wife was raised proper... hehehe


I'm sure that even in  The Great State Of Texas, the Coca-cola company will slap a fine on a company that sells you Pepsi when you ask for a coke.


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## clfsean (Jun 18, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm sure that even in  The Great State Of Texas, the Coca-cola company will slap a fine on a company that sells you Pepsi when you ask for a coke.



There are a couple of well known universities here in Atlanta that Coke has their wallets invested in. One of them is in the shadow of Mount Coke-dor. At that one, there is a food court sized national pizza company restaurant on campus. They normally sell only Pepsi products since ... well, PepsiCo owns them. Not this one... Coke only. All of the latest & greatest innovative dispensing machines can be found here too. All of them carrying various flavors of Coke... water flavored coke, sports drink flavored coke, coke flavored coke, etc...


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## punisher73 (Jun 18, 2012)

clfsean said:


> Your wife was raised proper... hehehe



She was.  She is God's gift to me, to help civilize me. :whip1:


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## jks9199 (Jun 18, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm sure that even in  The Great State Of Texas, the Coca-cola company will slap a fine on a company that sells you Pepsi when you ask for a coke.



"I'll take a coke..."

_"Pepsi OK?"_

Grew up using coke fairly interchangeably as soda, sometimes more specifically the particular drink by name.  Use soda generally now, though my wife uses pop.   You hear soda pop a lot in my house.


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