# Grandmaster of Modern Arnis



## Dieter (Nov 16, 2002)

Hi everybody in the Modern Arnis world,

here re a few thoughts I have and I would like to start a thread with a discussion about this topic: "a" Grandmaster of Modern Arnis. 
And I don´t mean JD.

I have read many opinions, that there will never be another Grandmaster, Remy was the only one, etc.

In my opinion it his is wrong and again, I am still not referring to JD.
If somebody had been training and teaching the art for 25 , 35 or more years, why shall he or she not be qualified to be a Grandmaster.

I think the problem is the term "the" Grandmaster contrary to the term "a" Grandmaster".

I will be talking about "a" Grandmaster.
"The" Grandmaster was only Remy. Right. But if you look at other styles, that has been around for some decades, there was the founder and later, of course there were other Masters, that became Grandmasters, like in the Wing Chun, in Aikido, in different styles of Karate, in Balintawak and in Doce Pares.

Suro Mike Inay solved this in a little different was. He had 2 tiltes: one was "Mangisursuro", which ment founder of the art. This was his title in the Inayan system of Eskrima and nobody else will ever be able to claim this title, because it is reserved for the founder. 
The other tile was "Suro" which is the Grandmaster or current head of the style. Of course other people can get to this position and this title.

The same thing with "a" Grandmaster of Modern Arnis. It will always be "a" Grandmaster and of course never "the" Grandmaster. And I would not even mind, when there would be several Grandmasters like in Doce Pares (Cacoy, Diony, Danny Guba, Richard Bustillo etc). Meaning that they understood the style thougoughly and devote great parts of their lives to the development, spreading and teaching of that system.

They will never be the leaders of the whole Modern Arnis, but perhaps Grandmasters of the art of Modern Arnis. Who not?

And I think this is no disrespect to Remy. Life goes on so does Modern Arnis. Remy is dead, but Modern Arnis is not. It is not united but perhaps even more alive then when Remy was still there, because before it was more or less on the shoulders of one man, but now it is on the shoulders of so many different people, who all try to fulfill the dream of Remy: The spreading of Modern Arnis. 

And how about the ranks? Remy handed out the high Dan ranks. Does that mean, that because he is dead, there will never be any promotions for higher Dan degrees like 6th, 7th, 8th or so?
Have a look at other styles. Of course high Dans were given after Funakoshi died or after Ueshiba had died. The system must go on and if you have been training for so many years, I think it is ok, to earn another degree. 
Who will be the authority to hand these out would be another question.

I think it should be a comission of Modern Arnis players with high Dans.

Who hands out a 10th Dan? Either it is self promoted with the foundation of a new system or given from the existing Grandmaster. But when there is no more Grandmaster of that system? Then it can either be given or accepted from Grandmasters of other Styles or it is handed out by a commission of lower Dan degrees of that style. Who else can it be otherwise?


When I was in the Philippines in 1983 and met Ernesto Presas, he was 10th Dan and Grandmaster. He was 39 at that time. How did he get the degree or title? I don´t know. I am pretty sure not from Remy. But he is accepted as a Grandmaster and 10th Dan and this is ok.

Would you have accepred a 39 year old western person with 10th Dan and a Grandmaster title? I think most of us would not have. (We don´t even accept a 40+ Grandmaster with a 5th Dan and now I AM referring to JD!)  

I don´t want to start a flame about Ernesto at all, but perhaps it is easier, to accept an asian with this age as a Grandmaster than a western person.
But  why is it so difficult to acdept, that there might be the one or other person in some time, who might get this title?
Because it is linked with Remy and only with Remy. And this is, where I belive, that Modern Arnis (and that is we all) has to grow up, from a child, that looked up to his father to an adult, that keeps his father in honor but will go his own way now and eventually become also a father. 
If the time is there already, I don´t know, but I think, time will come.

These were only a few thoughts and I am looking forward for many opinions and I hope we can have this discussion that doies not heat up with too many emotions.

Greetings from Germany 

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## dearnis.com (Nov 16, 2002)

Dieter;
  Some very good questions!  In many karate styles we speak of someone 7th dan or higher as "a" grandmaster.  I'm not sure that it is the best title to bring into Modern Arnis simply because of the gut reactions so many people seem to have (same with Professor; see other hot threads...)
I know we have the title "senior  master;" do we need something above that? 
  Is there any agreement on what constitutes master rank in Modern Arnis?  I had always heard 5th, but never really gotten any consensus.
  As for higher dan promotions, Dieter sums up the way it was always done in the Okinawan arts. (  The Shimabuko brothers make an interesting comparison here;l Tatsuo Shimabuko started wearing a red belt when his students insisted that it was appropriate for him to do so as a founder.  And it is  interesting that Ernesto recieved a 10th at 39; I believe that was the age at which Eizio (sp?) Shimabuko was awarded his; quite a difference from the idea that 10th dans are always old).
  All this aside, Dieter is very right; the issue is coming, and it bears some discussion now.
Chad


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## Dieter (Nov 16, 2002)

Hi Chad,



> And it is interesting that Ernesto recieved a 10th at 39



I just picked up Ernestos red book. He was 36 when it was published and already hat 10th Dan and I don´t know since how many years he already had it.
But again, this shall not be the topic of this thread.



> In many karate styles we speak of someone 7th dan or higher as "a" grandmaster. I'm not sure that it is the best title to bring into Modern Arnis simply because of the gut reactions so many people seem to have (same with Professor; see other hot threads...)



I know. In Karate, 1st Dan is Master, in Taekwon Do, I have heared of 4th Dans as being Grandmasters.
This is ridiculous of course.

But the term "Grandmaster" is an acknowledged term thoughout all martial arts for somebody, who has thoroughly mastered a style. "Professor" is used olnly in few styles, in Germany it is illegal to use it when you are not a dean of a faculty of a university, "Senior Master" is not widely used and Datu creates quite a bit cultural problems with the filipinos.
So I think the term "Grandmaster" is a good and established term for the highest level of knowledge and proficiency in a system.

In Germany we had adapted Ernestos levels. Remy knew that and never said that they are wrong or told us to use different ones.

We use the following right now:

1st to 5th Dan = Expert
6th Dan = Junior Master
7th Dan = Senior Master
8th - 10th Dan = Grandmaster.

I know that Remy awarded Junior Master also to 5th Dans, Senior Master already to 6th Dan and also to 8th Dans. 

But we all also know, that Remy was not very consitent with what he did, when and to whom.

I belive it is good to have a guideline, where the students know what is what and who is who. 


Regards


Dieter


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## dearnis.com (Nov 16, 2002)

Interesting; I didn't realize the use of certain titles was regulated over there (though I guess it makes sense; I know that title of any type is-or was- taken more seriously in Europe).
Some standardization would be nice to see, but what a task sorting it out will be!
Thanks for the info on Ernesto.
Chad


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 16, 2002)

Dieter,

Nice topic.

There most likely will be 'a' Grandmaster of Modern Arnis.

This could happen the in any of the ways you mentioned.

Personally I believe that over the next few years as people train and teach the art there will arise one or more leader(s) who will be able to demonstrate their abilities and the title will be acknowledge not only by their students but also by those that know them from other arts.

Who knows we might have so good things come of this.

Rich
:asian:


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## Dan Anderson (Nov 17, 2002)

Dieter,
You hit the nail on the head.  I think that any acceptance of the title of Grand Master within the Modern Arnis community *at this exact time* is a touchy subject because of A) a comparison of the founding Grand Master, and B) the timing of such a claim.

*BUT* you are right.  Modern Arnis will not become stagnant with a number of us continuing the art.  And there will be Grand Masters (or whatever title fits each exact person).

A comission would be interesting but it will not work.  Martial artists tend to be rather individualistic and follow their own path.  For the sake of argument, would you accept my telling you that you are not qualified to be a Grand Master?  I don't think you would, not with all you have accomplished (and I do acknowledge all you have done).  All a comission would do is accept some and alienate others and we would have (insert your own term here).

You have made a very good point and for the most part, I agree with you and the historical perspective bears you out.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## DoctorB (Nov 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *Dieter,
> You hit the nail on the head.  I think that any acceptance of the title of Grand Master within the Modern Arnis community at this exact time is a touchy subject because of A) a comparison of the founding Grand Master, and B) the timing of such a claim.
> ...



Hello Dan,

Dieter has asked a very good question and I can see two problems that have to be overcome - first, with Remy, deceased and since he was the founder of the art, who is availible to name someone else or others to the the "grandmaster" status.  Second, even though Dieter said that he ws not including JD in his post - there is that nagging business about Remy naming Jeff as a co-gm of Modern Arnis.  How does one work around that problem, if someone else or a number of others are going to be named as 'gm's'?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Cruentus (Nov 18, 2002)

that JD and Shea were named co-grandmasters. Then their titles, as "rumors" escalated, evolved to Grandmaster. But then the "rumor" changed to Co-successors. Now the "rumor" is split; and stands. The IMAF, Inc. claims Shea as successor (and JD as co-successor), and JD claims to be the grandmaster.

I put the word rumor in qoutations because the rumors were not just merely fabricated by the public. The rumors were propigated by one or both JD and Shea at one time or another. Who knows what was really said, at this point; especially since neither JD or Shea have clearly made a statement one way or another EXPLAINING exactly how their titles came about. But, I'll bet that there were people who were around who know the truth. Here we are, over a year after our teachers passing, and this is still not clear. And in Professors mindstate, he could have said ANYTHING to ANYONE. Maybe someday one, or both of these gentleman will make their case, and those who were there can refute it or not; then maybe the truth will come out.

I don't mean to offend anyone with my post here, but I'm just stating what I understand to be fact on the subject, which isn't much thusfar.

All I know is that considering his condition in his last days, If I had the opportunity to see him, I wouldn't have accepted even one belt-rank above what I held. Not when he was dilerious and on his death bed. But, that's just me. 

  :asian:


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## Cruentus (Nov 18, 2002)

I think in time, there will probably be leaders that rise above the others, and new grandmasters will be named. If they are self appointed, however, I do not see these titles as valid. When the public recognizes the individual as a "grandmaster" before the individual does, then that individual would have earned the title.


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## bloodwood (Nov 18, 2002)

*THE*Grand Master of Modern Arnis is and only is Remy A Presas.
As far as others becoming *A* Grand Master, that is possible in the future but not yet. 
There is another point that can be looked at here also. How about eventually the Datus moving to GMs. This would also vacate the Datu positions and make room for others to fill those positions. This could open up a whole new set of problems but it's something to think about.
I know on the hammering post I said that hammering was OK but I'm only throwing out an idea here, so please be kind.


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## Guro Harold (Nov 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> ...Datus moving to GMs. This would also vacate the Datu positions and make room for others to fill those positions.



Hi Bloodwood,

My take on the title of Datu is that it is a title that is kept for life.  Its like getting an honorary degree from a university, marking some great accomplishment or contribution that is recognized by someone or group greater than yourself.


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## DoctorB (Nov 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> 
> *that JD and Shea were named co-grandmasters. Then their titles, as "rumors" escalated, evolved to Grandmaster. But then the "rumor" changed to Co-successors. Now the "rumor" is split; and stands. The IMAF, Inc. claims Shea as successor (and JD as co-successor), and JD claims to be the grandmaster.
> 
> ...



Oh boy, Paul, you really know how to politely open a can of worms, don't you?  Ah, what the hell, let's go for it and have some fun while we are at it.  

You are correct about the "rumors"!  And this is just one of the reasons why I believe that the Modern Arnis Symposium is a great idea.  No more "rumors"!  No more guessing and no more concerns about whether or not the late Professor was lucid and clearly aware of what he was granting to people.  Just show up at the Symposium, take the floor two or three times to teach and demonstrate your skills in the art of Modern Arnis.  The presenters will have to stand up under the pressure of being compared and contrasted to some other skilled Modern Arnis instructors.  Then we will let each individual student and instructor, who is attendence decide For Themselves, which of these people are the very best of those who came to teach!  No more "rumors".  Just good old emperical evidence based on performance - it just doesn't get any better than that!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DoctorB (Nov 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> *THEGrand Master of Modern Arnis is and only is Remy A Presas.
> As far as others becoming A Grand Master, that is possible in the future but not yet.
> ...



Ha There, Bloodwood, that is a very hard and rigid stance to be taking.  There is no doubt about Professor Presas, being the founder and first Grand Master of Modern Arnis... there is only one, "first".  But I have to ask you if not now, then when and who would be in the position to designate someone or a number of someones with that title for Modern Arnis?

BTW, I refuse to get into that datu thing.  It is a very tender cultural issue with some people, so good luck on that part of your discussion.

On the positive side of the matter, I can say that I do not see the 2003 Symposium, being the place to "find" a Modern Arnis GM.  I have always said that the event was designed and intended to gave everyone who attends an opportunity to meet and train with a variety of Modern Arnis instructors.  Each attendee can then judge for themselves who has the greater or the lesser skills, knowledge and teaching ability within the art among those who choose to attend and present.

Gotta go for now, but I will be looking forward to more posts on this thread.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Mickey (Nov 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> 
> *that JD and Shea were named co-grandmasters. Then their titles, as "rumors" escalated, evolved to Grandmaster. But then the "rumor" changed to Co-successors. Now the "rumor" is split; and stands. The IMAF, Inc. claims Shea as successor (and JD as co-successor), and JD claims to be the grandmaster.
> 
> ...



If my memory is correct, I read on the Modernarnis.com site, when it was run by JD, that Dr. Schea and J. Delanay were names co-successors. Later after/during things fell apart you had the co-grandmaster adjustment to the post. And then soon very soon after after that is was the grandmaster post and that one fo the co-successor's had retired.

I would chcek to archives, but I do not know the web site that has the archive searches. Anyone remember?

Now, from a simplistic point of view I could see how one could make / allow themselves to believe the a co-successor and co-grandmaster are the same. What is the next successor of the ststem to be but teh next grandmaster? Personally this is a leap of faith I could not make, but could see how it could be made by others.

I also think I have seen posted here somewhere that Dr. Schea never claimed to the title grandmaster nor co-grandmaster, only co-successor. I could see given what I know of Dr Schea's personality, which is little, where this could have been the breaking point with him and JD.

"And those are my thoughts and not yours . . ." (* Quoted from a local radio station *)

Mick


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## Mickey (Nov 19, 2002)

Doctor,

I am confused, if people show up to this event you keep posting about, it will be good. IT sounds good. Yet, your list does not include some fo thsoe that are claiming lofty titles. This will not resolve the issues with them will it?


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## Dan Anderson (Nov 19, 2002)

Paul,
It would be nice to see something in writing by declaring anyone the successor.  According to Mao, he has seen the MOTT's certificate.  That would be a start of some sort or another.

Mick,
The website you are referring to is run by JD so that is one side of the story.

Blood,
I agree with you on the only GM of Modern Arnis was Remy Presas.  Here's the catch.  Only RP had the totality of Remy Presas' Modern Arnis.  Every one of us has changed the teaching in some way or another, whether it be a little or a lot.  Also, the evolution of _Remy Presas' Modern Arnis_ is over.  He passed away.  Therefore, it is wide open for others to be GM in some form or variation of the original art.

Jerome,
I totally agree with you on the 2003 Symposium *will not* establish who the next GM is going to be.  (I will begin lobbying for myself in the New Hampshire primaries soon - oops, wrong election year.  Dang.)

All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## bloodwood (Nov 19, 2002)

Doctor B and others, My sole purpose in the statements was merely to jar some new ideas out of people to see what options are out there for movement in the upper belt ranks. I am well aware of the torid political climate in Modern Arnis, and know full well that there would be trouble even mentioning Datus and GMs, but what the hell. When lots of different ideas get out  there eventually one may be the answer. This is what I love about Martial Talk. People who love the art sharing their ideas and feelings.


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## Rocky (Nov 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> 
> *that JD and Shea were named co-grandmasters. Then their titles, as "rumors" escalated, evolved to Grandmaster. But then the "rumor" changed to Co-successors. Now the "rumor" is split; and stands. The IMAF, Inc. claims Shea as successor (and JD as co-successor), and JD claims to be the grandmaster.
> 
> ...



 This is something I have wanted to post for quite some time. But I know how people like to twist things around and how some are way over protective of the Professor. But lets face facts, and seperate the man, the mith, and the martial artist. For some reason people want to put great martial artist on a pedistal, personally I blame to much time in front of the boob tube watching Kung Fu!!! The fact that the Professor was a great martial artist is un questionalble. But this did not make him impervious to all other forms of human short comings. From what I understand the tumor that Professor had was hugh. Who knows how long he had it, hell I remember him getting headachs quite a bit almost 10 years ago. Maybe this contributed to some of the strange things he has done in the past 5 to 10 years, we will never know. For this reason I myself feel much more at piece with him then I did in the past few years. Right or wrong I beleave he may have been having problems for quite some time. And as far as I know its pretty hard to take anything that a person who is dying from brain tramua says as necessarilly the rants of a person with a sound mind. I could be wrong but it is something to think about.

 As far as the GrandMAster title, who cares as long as the art is still passed on that is all that matters. I think the fact that Jeff D. wrote an artical in blackbelt, and openly admited to 13 years of Modern Arnis training as the current Grand Master speaks for itself. I mean it sure makes me all warm and fuzzy I think I 'll run right out and train under him. Look Modern Arnis is no differant than any other art, there is always going to be little splinter groups, some are going to be truely awsome some are going to be not so good. If you are happy with the one you are with then just go about your business. An art in todays day and age can easily have more than one Grand Master. Hell if you are a Master instructor, and you have 1 or more students that are Master rank, some would say that makes you a Grand Master. In Balintawak I have always refered to GM Buot as the GrandMaster And Anciong as the Great Grand Master. So why can't Professor be the Great Grand Master and others who wish to or feel they deserve the title be called GrandMasters.

For the record you can call ME Mr. Rocky, yo Rocky, Tuhon Rocky, Guru Rocky, Punong Rocky, Maestro Rocky, Hey Rocky, Rocko, Mr. Rocko, or as my friends at the state capital prefer to call me inmate #721001, my Britt friends call my Pasiwk, Rocky Pasiwk 009 1/2  and of course you gals out there and call me......... ANYTIME!!! ;-)

Rocky

 From the book of Rock: " A fancy title and  cool uniform, Oh yeah that will save your *** on the corner of 8 Mile and WoodWard."


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## bloodwood (Nov 20, 2002)

> I agree with you on the only GM of Modern Arnis was Remy Presas. Here's the catch. Only RP had the totality of Remy Presas' Modern Arnis. Every one of us has changed the teaching in some way or another, whether it be a little or a lot. Also, the evolution of Remy Presas' Modern Arnis is over. He passed away. Therefore, it is wide open for others to be GM in some form or variation of the original art.



Dan makes a good point here. Professor Presas who was the glue that held Modern Arnis together as one organization is gone. It is also obvious that there will not be one main organization that all will belong to, now or in the future. Modern Arnis is alive and well and will thrive well into the future but through different organizations run by different people. These organizations are free to use what ever titles and ranks they choose to. Wether the other organizations recognize these titles or promotions makes no difference. The only thing all the groups have in common is that they teach the art of Remy Presas. If the leaders of the different groups recognized each others titles if only as a professional courtesy, that would be good, but not a necessity. As long as your not claiming to be THE GM of all Modern Arnis you are free to do as you like.


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## Dan Anderson (Nov 20, 2002)

_"For the record you can call ME Mr. Rocky, yo Rocky, Tuhon Rocky, Guru Rocky, Punong Rocky, Maestro Rocky, Hey Rocky, Rocko, Mr. Rocko, or as my friends at the state capital prefer to call me inmate #721001, my Britt friends call my Pasiwk, Rocky Pasiwk 009 1/2  and of course you gals out there and call me......... ANYTIME!!! ;-)"_
Rocky

I prefer calling you Roccoco, especially since it is not on the list.

Dano
"Book him, Dano.  Murder 1."  Jack Lord


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## DoctorB (Nov 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> *Dan makes a good point here. Professor Presas who was the glue that held Modern Arnis together as one organization is gone. It is also obvious that there will not be one main organization that all will belong to, now or in the future. Modern Arnis is alive and well and will thrive well into the future but through different organizations run by different people. These organizations are free to use what ever titles and ranks they choose to. Wether the other organizations recognize these titles or promotions makes no difference. The only thing all the groups have in common is that they teach the art of Remy Presas. If the leaders of the different groups recognized each others titles if only as a professional courtesy, that would be good, but not a necessity. As long as your not claiming to be THE GM of all Modern Arnis you are free to do as you like. *



Ok, Bloodwood, now we are making some progress, but my basic question still remains unanswered; let's asume that there can be more than one GM AND by adding Rocky's idea of having a "Great GM" and then various orgainzational derived GMs - my question is:

'Who will award the title to these various organizational leaders and how will that decision be arrived at?'

Let me be blunt and very clear with regard to this matter - merely having the system leader declare him/her self as the GM, lacks
credibility.  Having the organizations's students, even those holding blackbelts, name someone as the organizational GM, also lacks credibility, because these people are beholding to the leader for their promotions, hence the concept of the 
"enlightened vested interest".

Maybe this ought to be a discussion topic at the 2003 Symposium.  Perhaps this ought to become a seperate thread: 

"How should the Modern Arnis Community handle the recognition of leadership titles after July 2003?" 

Please understand that there is a considerable problem confronting those who would become the GM's - very specifily: 
Professor Presas, himself created and abandoned numerous titles over the course of his career in the USA alone and he did not encourage or allow a formal IMAF organizational structure to be developed during his lifetime; therefore, there was no objective criteria developed to deteremine what skills equated to what rank level or title.  All of the promotions and tiltles awarded were in the final analysis based on the SUBJECTIVE OPINION of Professor Remy Presas, hence the most pressing question becomes 'which titles are still valid and why'?  

I would strongly urge everyone to re-read Rocky's latest post, which is found above this submission and SERIOUSLY consider the implications of what he wrote regarding the headaches going back at least 10 tears before the cancer diagnosis was made.  You do not have to be an experienced trial lawyer or oncologist to see the significance of what Rocky has pointed out.

Without taking anything away from anyone or implying that someone was less than truthful, there are always going to be some serious doubts among some people as to the validity of the later titles that Professor awarded, simply because of the nature of his illnes and the size of the tumor itself.  A stage four tumor is a worse case situation, no matter where it is located in the body.

One way out of this morass is to attend the 2003 Symposium and judge for yourself, who has the technical skills, knowledge and ability to actually do the art of Modern Arnis.  Let ability determine rank.  Professor Presas, laid out a number of possible avenues to follow, some need more development than others, but we will not know who can really do the art if we all 'hide in our small ponds', being the "big fish"!

I really like the way this thread has developed, because it is dealing with ideas and not personalities.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Dan Anderson (Nov 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> 
> *- my question is,
> 'Who will award the title to these various organizational leaders and how will that decision be arrived at?'
> ...



My own opinion on Jerome comments (Hi Jerome):

*Who... * The individual organizations _or possibly_ those who were associated with RP in a martial sense, e.g. George Dillman, Dr. Gyi, Wally Jay.  There's one idea.  Another is going to be the acceptance by seniors and peers, e.g. Abon Baet, Ted Buot, Ernesto Presas, etc.  Another is that the individual organization or individual does it himself and takes the heat until he's proven his worth.

*Discussion topic...*  Definitely yes.  A resolution, I highly doubt it but it will get the opinions out in the open.

*What titles are valid...*  To me, those that can be proven in writing or have been broadly and publicly stated.  Example:  I have a 6th degree certificate and was publicly announced as Senior master in a camp.  The same for Tim's and Kelly's Datu status and the same for many of us with actual certificates.

*Judge for yourself...*  Not only at the Symposium but in all the seminars, camps and so forth.  In the end, it is going to be what appeals to the individual and what feeds their needs and wants.  Example: Tim Hartman, Jerome Barber and Bram Frank are much more into the blade aspect of Modern Arnis than I am.  Kelly Worden puts a goodly emphasis on the forms.  That feeds their needs and wants.  Everybody has aspects which appeal to them the most.  The "old man" taught a complete package and everybody has their favorite parts.

Now, to everybody reading this thread,
Personally, in the long run, I feel that there is going to be a zillion Modern Arnis styles anyway, now that the founder is gone.  Each organization has a style of it's own, whether it has been renamed or not.  If you don't think so, take a look at the rank requirements of IMAF, IMAF Inc., WMAA, WMAC, MARPPIO and Modern Arnis 80 and I'll bet you your paycheck they don't match.  And they don't need to.  

An *ART* is personal expression of any given subject.  It can be interpreted and varied in many ways, according to the viewpoint of the individual presenting it.  In other words, there ain't no 1 way of singing the blues.  A sicence, however, is a different matter.  If the wheel isn't round the ride is going ot be bumpy and there ain't no changin' that.

So, the next Grand Master of Modern Arnis is going to be whoever decclares himself or herself to be it.  And if you know your martial arts history, there will be more and more senior titles created as time goes on.  Back in the day, the title _* Master*_ was used sparingly.  Now, any 1st degree black belt in taekwondo is a master and Ed Parker is referred to as Senior Grand Master.  (Note: this is not a slam on Ed Parker, just noting the title as somethng that would not have been created back in the 60's.)

Anybody can be a Grand Master but hardly anybody is going to match up to the "old man."

Opinionatedly yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - I like the term _Headmaster_ myself.  I don't claim or use it, I just like it better.


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## DoctorB (Nov 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> 
> *This is something I have wanted to post for quite some time. But I know how people like to twist things around and how some are way over protective of the Professor. But lets face facts, and seperate the man, the mith, and the martial artist. For some reason people want to put great martial artist on a pedistal, personally I blame to much time in front of the boob tube watching Kung Fu!!! The fact that the Professor was a great martial artist is un questionalble. But this did not make him impervious to all other forms of human short comings. From what I understand the tumor that Professor had was hugh. Who knows how long he had it, hell I remember him getting headachs quite a bit almost 10 years ago. Maybe this contributed to some of the strange things he has done in the past 5 to 10 years, we will never know. For this reason I myself feel much more at piece with him then I did in the past few years. Right or wrong I beleave he may have been having problems for quite some time. And as far as I know its pretty hard to take anything that a person who is dying from brain tramua says as necessarilly the rants of a person with a sound mind. I could be wrong but it is something to think about.
> 
> ...



Hey There, Rocky,

I can state that we are in agreement on the critical issues raised in the above post that you submitted.  There has been too much myth making and ignoring of basic facts with regard to Professor Presas... too much idol worship and not enough objective observation of what did and did not happen relative to the development of the art beyond what Professor did or did not do. 

You wrote:

Right or wrong I beleave he may have been having problems for quite some time. And as far as I know its pretty hard to take anything that a person who is dying from brain tramua says as necessarilly the rants of a person with a sound mind. I could be wrong but it is something to think about.
     ------------------------------------------------------------

That should be a wake-up call to some people!  The timing and severity of the tumor makes it easy to speculate about the lucidity of Professor's announcements, easily as far back as 3 to 5 years before the diagnosis.  Just talking to oncologists and Hospice/ Pallative Care Doctors, will gave anyone a clearer picture of what MIGHT HAVE been going on with Professor even before the tumor was discovered.

People can say whatever they want.  I know that I do not discount anyone's claim regarding what Professor Presas is supposed to have told them, particularly if what they tell me 
falls into a pattern of behavior that I have personally observed as well as discussed with others.  You and I have had a couple of those private discussions, in the past.

Let's me reinterate some of the past titles that I know that 
created:

Commissioner
Guardian
Black Belt Society
Protege
Datu
Technical Assistant
Co-GM
Co-Successor

What did these titles mean, why were they created, which ones are still valid?

Your thoughts beyond what you have posted above would be appriciated.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DoctorB (Nov 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *My own opinion on Jerome comments (Hi Jerome):
> 
> ...



Very nice piece, Dan.  As far as the bet... nah, too easy to lose betting against your contention, especially with my money involved... now if we were using your money...

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Cruentus (Nov 20, 2002)

This is kind of a side note here, but I just wanted to state my feelings on rank validity.

God bless the man, but Professor was all too inconsistant when he handed out rank. Sorry to state the blatent obvious. For this reason, just because someone can say "I have a 3rd degree" or "I am a (insert title here)," I don't accept it by itself. I take a few things into account: 

1. How did/why did they earn the rank?
2. When did they earn the rank?
3. Under what circumstances did they earn rank?
4. How did they conduct themselves as someone who has attained the rank after the rank was recieved?
5. How do they conduct themselves now?
6. (most importantly) Does the ability match the rank?

So, lets say someone attained a third degree (for instance) for getting professor a ride when he was in a bind (to pick a random example). But he had been an active 2nd degree for 4 years, trains and practices dilegently, conducts themselves with humility, and has the skill level to back up their 3rd degree. I would consider that 3rd degree pretty darn valid.

Let's say that someone had attained a third degree by actually testing at a camp. But, not only did he barely pass his test, but he wouldn't have if the person on the board wasn't his buddy. He hadn't had his 2nd degree for very long, he shows up to almost every camp, but dosen't actually train. He is too busy B.S.ing with his buddies, and walking around and "helping" people to train. He is real busy kissing Professors butt, and when he isn't doing that, he tries to nit-pick the "lower ranks" (especially during tests) for things that do not matter, technically speaking, in the long run. And, if it came down too it, he could not demonstrate the ability required for his rank. I would have trouble agreeing to the validity of this persons 3rd degree.

I could give countless examples of hypotheticals that in some way or another fit the disciption of people we all know. There are plent of examples of high ranks with low abilities, and vice-versa. Plus, how many sleepers are there out there who may not even have a black belt, but who could smoke some of these high ranks when it came down to it. I shudder to think. Point is, everyone has their story. The problem with judging rank by their story, however, is that nothing is emperical. It is all subject to opinion.

Since there is no imperical way (given the lack of structure by the old IMAF under Professor) of judging rank, it's impossable to tell based solely on a title how good the person really is. You gotta see/feel to believe. And how will a beginner know the truth when they don't even know what they should be looking/feeling for? 

So I think that the challange of the Organizations will be too set up a concrete ranking system that imperically judges where the student is at. And if it so happends that people are ready to advance in ranks and titles higher then what professor was able to give during his lifetime, their will be a set imperical and logical method of granting the titles by the organization. So, if one becomes a "grandmaster", their will be imperical and logical evidance through their accomplishements to back the claim. 

Sorry for the ramble, but its been a long day. I hope I got my cloudy point accross. Mill over what I said, and tell me your thoughts.


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## DoctorB (Nov 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> 
> *This is kind of a side note here, but I just wanted to state my feelings on rank validity.
> 
> ...



Hello Paul,

Here are my thoughts.  Your points are very consistant with mine.
You are absolutely correct and why apologize for telling the truth?
Professor Presas, was very inconsistant with rank promotions and there never was a written standard from which an objective evaluation could be made regarding promotions.  There is no need to defend that kind of situation because it puts EVERYONE'S rank into question with regard to actual ability, until one has had an opportunity to demonstrate their competence.

I wrote:

       -------------------------------------------------------------
People can say whatever they want. I know that I do not discount anyone's claim regarding what Professor Presas is supposed to have told them, particularly if what they tell me 
falls into a pattern of behavior that I have personally observed as well as discussed with others. You and I have had a couple of those private discussions, in the past.
     --------------------------------------------------------------------

Your comments merely confirm my obsevations of past behavior with the Modern Arnis world under Professor - there is a very clear consistancy in some of his past behavior.  Now we are in a position to correct some of the problems that resulted from his decisions.  He was the GM, the Founder and the larger than life personality of Modern Arnis, but he is also gone.  So what can  and what should be done to remediate these problems is the active question.  

The key phrase in my statement is "...if what they tell me falls into a pattern of behavior that I have personally observed...".
There is enough emperical evidence available, if one merely talks to enough people  and you have offered a couple of good examples, without names, to have me believe that your observations are very similar to mine as well as those of others whom I have had extensive conversation with on the matter of inflated rank within Modern Arnis.

Some people will, of course, deny what we have posted - so what - does that change what you personally observed?  I have had expriences with Modern Arnis groupies who have refused to work with me because they had not seen me at camps and seminars that they attended.  That comment was posted several times on this and two other forums.  Yet when I responded that these same people were never at any of the seminars or camps that I attended or more importantly, hosted, there is no further comment.  Is the prevailing Modern Arnis criteria for excellence within the art, determined by whether or not one attanded seminars and camps, plus WHO saw you there?

I am hosting the 2003 Symposium, will these same people attend and take the floor to instruct?  Will they be willing to accept the opportunity to put their own Modern Arnis skills up for comparison against others?  At least three people who tried to make an issue out of my "lack" of attendenceat camps/seminars, have delined to accept my invitation to be part of the Symposium!  

The rank issue, for me, is mute with regard to the upcoming Symposium.  Professor, will not be there to act as a buffer and shield.  People will have to take the floor and do thier Modern Arnis instructional thing.  They will have to stand or fall on thier very own merits.  

I really don't care what rank and/or title someone is purported to have in Modern Arnis, what will matter at the Symposium is did they deliever the goods?  Since each instructor is self selected, not chosen by me or some board, each one will have the same chance to impress thier peers without any sort of preconceived determination as to who is better or more skilled than whom.  The people in attendence will make that decision and hopefully each person will make thier own decision based on what they actually observed at the Symposium.

I know that you intend to be at the Symposium, but not too many others have indicated that they want to be there to see for themselves who is really skilled in Modern Arnis and who MIGHT BE hiding behind rank and title!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## arnisador (Nov 21, 2002)

The Professor gave out rank like candy at times--as people would give a tip, in some cases. I was bothered by it for some while.

On the other hand I sat on many boards and didn't really see board members bending the rules for their own students. But the Professor would often bump up the board's recommendations significantly. The cases were predictable and not always based on ability but rather on effort, association with certain groups, or other attributes that were not clearly indicative of ability.


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## Dan Anderson (Nov 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> 
> *This is kind of a side note here, but I just wanted to state my feelings on rank validity.
> 
> ...



What a great idea for a new thread!

Here's my answers for me:
1.  Flat promotion by Remy Presas, continuous training and contribution to the art.
2.  June 1992.
3.  At a camp and by Prof. Presas' origination (not by my questioning if I was ready and that sort of thing).
4.  To me, rather well.  You'd have to ask others for their opinions.
5.  Well mannered with a sense of humor so as not to get too full of myself.  Others may have differing opinions.
6.  Interesting question.  I personally think so.  I wouldn't accept if if I had self doubts.  Again, others may have different opinions.

Yours,
Dan


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## bloodwood (Nov 21, 2002)

Questioning any body's rank who holds a valid certificate from Remy would turn into a witch hunt. However they acquired this rank makes no difference, it still stands. Granted that in many cases ability will not match the rank, but that is another matter all together. Deciding how far back to go to see where Remy's tumor would have started to affect his gudgement is really pushing it. Maybe decisions he made when he became ill in Europe and knew he was in trouble could be looked at, but by whom? It's not going to happen so this is a dead end.

The different organizations out there are not on the same page and never will be. So I will say again that the different organizations are free to do as they wish as far as promotions are concerned at any level. As long as they are satisfied that those being promoted meet the standards set by their organization, they are well within their rights to do so. If other organizations don't recognize these ranks or promotions that's just too bad. Let them worry about their own house.

Other than JD there doesn't seem to be anyone in the prominate organizations that would even be close to setting up someone as a GM at the present time, so this is something that can be looked at down the road when it is more likely to happen.


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## arnisador (Nov 21, 2002)

I have to agree--if the Professor gave the rank, we should (formally) respect it.


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## JMP (Nov 21, 2002)

Hello everyone 
I have trained in Modern Arnis for over 25yrs. I knew Remy very well, he stayed with me often. (sometimes just to get some rest)
He was a kind man who wanted everyone happy as you all know.
I have all kinds of titles and rank given by Remy  they mean nothing to enyone but me. Don't worry about what people say or what title they use, keep training, train with people you like and respect, improve yourself, you will see who is who when meeting with others. Some talk- Some do




                              With Respect

                                           J.M.P.


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## Cruentus (Nov 22, 2002)

You do not know me, but I'm friends with Rich, and I train down in Rochester.

It's good to hear your input here, and that is very good advise.

:asian:


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## DoctorB (Nov 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *The Professor gave out rank like candy at times--as people would give a tip, in some cases. I was bothered by it for some while.
> 
> On the other hand I sat on many boards and didn't really see board members bending the rules for their own students. But the Professor would often bump up the board's recommendations significantly. The cases were predictable and not always based on ability but rather on effort, association with certain groups, or other attributes that were not clearly indicative of ability. *



Now that we have established this fact once and for all, we can move on to the other more pressing issues of self development and growth within the art.  It is also very important that members of different group within Modern Arnis understand that it is not important whether or not someone attended the seminars/camps that they did; the bottom line is still can the person do the art?

Holding to the "I didn't see you at any seminar/camp that I attended" is a ridiculously shallow standard to apply.  After all
Professor Presas taught in seminars and camps over a 25 year period of time in more locations that any single person could accurately detail.  The real question cames back to one's actual Modern Arnis skills, knowledge and ability.  Who among us can claim to have attended every seminar and camp that profosseor Presas conducted, begining in 1975?

The fact that some people were promoted in spite of their actual knowledge and ability within the art is a matter of concern and rightfully so, therefore it would be better to error on the side of caution because it is entirely logical that some of the people given rank promotions and title are very skilled in the art.  They earned their promotions for all of the "right reasons".

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DoctorB (Nov 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> PS - I like the term _Headmaster_ myself.  I don't claim or use it, I just like it better. [/B]



Hi Dan, 

I liked the suggestion so much that I went out and checked to see if that title was in use within the martial arts.  I found one case - Ryukyu Kempo - has the title in it's lexicon and it can be either the equal of Grand Master or a title that is actually above that of GM.

OTOH, there is a tradition of usage within the American Private Schools to list thier chief academic/executive officer as the "Head Master".  That is an extension of the term "Master Teacher" and it involve a "raking system" in education - apprentice, teacher, master teacher and head master. 

A second title that comes into use is "Principal".  This title could mean the same as Head Master or it could be used to designate the top teacher within the school, as in, "Principal  Instructor or Teacher".  Therefore it was/is entirely possible for a school to have both a Head Master and a Prinicpal Teacher.

So, Dan, I would recommend that you also consider the titles of either Principal Instructor or Prinicpal Teacher.  These titles do not seem to have a martial arts conotation and can not be construed as inflated status, particularly if you are using them within a teaching context at a specific school.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D


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## DoctorB (Nov 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> *Questioning any body's rank who holds a valid certificate from Remy would turn into a witch hunt. However they acquired this rank makes no difference, it still stands. Granted that in many cases ability will not match the rank, but that is another matter all together. Deciding how far back to go to see where Remy's tumor would have started to affect his gudgement is really pushing it. Maybe decisions he made when he became ill in Europe and knew he was in trouble could be looked at, but by whom? It's not going to happen so this is a dead end.
> 
> ...



Hello Bloodwood,

You wrote:

Questioning any body's rank who holds a valid certificate from Remy would turn into a witch hunt. However they acquired this rank makes no difference, it still stands. Granted that in many cases ability will not match the rank, but that is another matter all together.

------------------------------------------------------------

You are absolutely correct on both of your points.  But that also raises another issue - by following your logic (and I agree with you) attacking Jeff Delaney for using the terms "Grand Master and Successor" is wrong, because, however he acquired the distictions does not matter, so long as Professor, authorized him to do so!  
(BTW, I am not accusing you of attacking, Delaney, I am merely making my point.)

No one recommended going back and taking anything from anyone - the point being made was that there is a possibilty that the rankings and titles awarded over the last 2 - 3 years might not have made with Professor, being in complete control of his thoughts.  It is a reasonable consideration, given the size of the tumor, but in the absence of any clear and compelling evidence to the contrary, we must assume that he knew what he wanted and he did it.  With that logic in place the MoTTs, including Delaney are legitmate, because Professor made the awards.  People do not have to like it, but they can't change it!

Then there is the matter regarding the question of under-qualified people being awarded ranks, which is not really debatable.  Any number of people can point to others who are not very skilled or knowledgable with regard to Modern Arnis.  This does present a problem that is actually not  correctable since the rank was given by Professor.

Hmmm...  I have one possible solution in mind....

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Dan Anderson (Nov 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> 
> *Hi Dan,
> 
> ...



The above definition is why I like the term.  It does not denote that one is the greatest master of masters (which is how grandmaster hits me - just a gut reaction).  Headmaster flows better than principal teacher or principal instructor.  That's also why I like it.
Dan


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## bloodwood (Nov 22, 2002)

> Hmmm... I have one possible solution in mind....



Forget it Jerome.

Just remember, all those clowns and frauds out there make you really appreciate the ones who do have it. Besides, then we wouldn't have any body to talk about.


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## arnisador (Nov 22, 2002)

Were the records ever centralized? For a long time it seemed as if each camp director kept their own records and that was that. I know they were supposed to be centralized and heard it happened but I was never sure.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *Were the records ever centralized? For a long time it seemed as if each camp director kept their own records and that was that. I know they were supposed to be centralized and heard it happened but I was never sure. *



Arnisador,

I am not sure a centralized Records storage would solve the problem. I know that GM R Presas was coming and promoting people in Michigan since 1977 or before. Were these records which would have been kept by Remy been recorded else where besides in the personal certificates? I agree a centralized data center would have been great. It still would be really nice to have one today, but we do not have one location.  I am not saying do not try, only that it would be very difficult.

Train well all


:asian:


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## Dieter (Nov 23, 2002)

Hi

I think Kelly Worden it trying to collect exactly that right now. Have a look at the   WMAC-Forum 
and there the thread "Modern Arnis lineage list or chart.

Regards

Dieter


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dieter _
> 
> *Hi
> 
> ...



Dieter,

I have seen this request, and also his request on the Eskrima Digest. He ( Kelly Worden ) talks about generations of students. Those that were around when Modern Arnis was created (Generation One), those that were around for NARAPHIL (Generation Two), those that helped Remy First in the U.S.A. and North America (* I added the North America so as not to forget our friends to the North. *) (Third Generation ), and those that have been with Remy Presas since the 70's (Generation four).

I know many people like to claim to be the _ DIRECT _ student of Remy Presas and therefore Generation One of Modern Arnis. Let us assume the best intention by Kelly Worden. This generation terminology will cause some issue with some people. Since Remy Presas is not around to clarify what terminology or descriptors is to be used I cannot see where there can be one central database. I know Kelly Worden has stated that he is going to list names and ranks and titles if any, and nothing more. Yet, he has added in this Generation issue. Like I said he might have the best intentions and only trying to record when people were training or when they started. In my low yet humble opinion I believe that if he took title (yes), and rank (yes), and when they started to train in Martial Arts (Maybe) or in Modern Arnis (Yes), and when they obtained their rank (yes). The ranking of people by generation, or by seniority or by some other means is not going to happen in this modern touchy feely everyone be happy. (* Not to mention or current legal system *) There are not going to be any death matches. There are not going to be any showdowns. People might posture and or challenge but I really doubt it will happen. I know there is an event planned to cover the gathering of Modern Arnis _'Players'_ and I am not trying to advocate it here or to take away from it. Yes, people could show up and teach and allow others to view their stage presence and teaching skills. And this is good for the Business of Modern Arnis, but not for the business of everyone.

I just do not see where there will be a clear list of who is #1. Nor do I see a reason to have one. People will train with people and after a while they should know if they are getting what they want or desire.

Just my thoughts  

Train Well :asian:


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## DoctorB (Nov 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> *Forget it Jerome.
> 
> Just remember, all those clowns and frauds out there make you really appreciate the ones who do have it. Besides, then we wouldn't have any body to talk about. *




Ha, Bloodwood, my idea had nothing to do with titles.....

You'r right, all of the clowns and frauds most certinly make me appriciate those people who do have the skill, talent and knowledge.  I believe that you are wrong about not having anyone to talk about... I have three possibilities in mind, however,
I also know that none of them would touch the Modern Arnis leadership issue.  But it is possible one and perhaps two of them will be at the Symposium.  I am in a somewhat unique position within the Modern Arnis world because I have kept contact with people who were active Remy followers and those like myself who went off in their own directions because we all got fed up with the clowns and frauds.

So many people became too attached to the Professor and his personality.  Theycan not see that there were and still are a much larger body of people who have trained in Modern Arnis, but for their own reasons stopped training with Professor.  

With so much attention focused on Professor, the seminars and camps, many of those people who stayed with Professor or came into the art at later and later points in time, were unware of the earlier people.  Hence, we have a clear rational for why people should want to attend the Symposium.  They will for the first time, have a chance to meet and train with some people whom they have never met during their previous Modern Arnis training.

Also keep in mind that some of the earliest discussions regrading the Symposium focused on how the training has appeared to change in Modern Arnis as the years passed.  Those of us who are the long-times were part of the "art within your art", "flow",
and "cuentada" era, while others were part of the "Arnis-ju jitsu-
karate" era, and the came the "tap-tapi" era.  Now, just how do tall of those era's fit together?  Each distinct era also overlapped,
with the preceeding and following one, therefore,  there has to be a seam or two within them to allow for the connections.  The only people who can really make it all come together for us, are the instructors who have agreed to be at the Symposium.

Once people see it they just might understand.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DoctorB (Nov 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *The above definition is why I like the term.  It does not denote that one is the greatest master of masters (which is how grandmaster hits me - just a gut reaction).  Headmaster flows better than principal teacher or principal instructor.  That's also why I like it.
> Dan *



Go for it, Big Guy.  I like "Principal Istructor", because of the quiet distinctions and subtle implications that go along with it.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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