# There is no magic pistol round for stopping an assailant



## PhotonGuy (Sep 2, 2014)

So its been made clear here that there is no magic pistol round for stopping an assailant, if there was everybody would be using it. However, I would think that some pistol rounds have a better chance at stopping an assailant than others, provided that you hit the assailant.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 2, 2014)

And the question is what?
if your asking preference I'll go with a hollow point 44mag


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## Grenadier (Sep 2, 2014)

It's already common knowledge that handgun bullets are feeble manstoppers compared to long gun projectiles.  

However, with a proven premium hollowpoint design, just about any reasonable duty caliber (9mm or higher) can work just fine as a manstopper, or at least as well as one could expect from a handgun.  

There are agencies that still use the old-fashioned Federal BPLE 115 grain +P+ load for their 9 mm weapons, and they haven't had any complaints about its performance.  For that matter, the NYPD was using ball ammo for their 9 mm pistols for quite a while, and didn't have any noticeable complaints about its performance as a manstopper either.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 2, 2014)

I would think a .357 magnum would have better stopping power than a 9mm especially at point blank although nowhere near the stopping power of a  .30 06 rifle round. So I would go with a .357 magnum hollow point. Preferably a critical defense round by Hornady. The .44 magnum is a bit too hard to control. Now, while the handgun might be a poor manstopper unlike a good .30 06 rifle round or a 12 gauge round, I would think a .357 Magnum would stop just about anybody from close range provided you hit them, and by close range I mean around 5 feet or closer not 20 feet away.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2014)

Is it really really necessary to have the same conversation twice before you get it? Every single time?
Accuracy is the single most important factor. Same as when you started the same thread a couple weeks ago. 
Sheesh. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 2, 2014)

Is it really really necessary for you to even read my posts much less respond to them? If you don't like them don't read them. And you're the one who doesn't get it not me. Don't read my posts if you don't like them.


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## jks9199 (Sep 2, 2014)

Folks -- let's watch out to keep things within the rules. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 2, 2014)

Thank you jks9199. If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all.


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2014)

So which pistol round do you think won't be stopping you in a fight?


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So which pistol round do you think won't be stopping you in a fight?



The poorly aimed one, of course.


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## drop bear (Sep 3, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> The poorly aimed one, of course.




No I think that would even work to be honest.


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## Instructor (Sep 3, 2014)

Regardless of weapon and/or ammunition you keep fighting till the fight is done.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 3, 2014)

The round that misses is the one that wont stop a person in a fight.


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## Grenadier (Sep 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I would think a .357 magnum would have better stopping power than a 9mm especially at point blank



If there is any significant difference, it's not going to be that much in either direction.  

Today's premium hollowpoint rounds are designed to penetrate and expand according to specific specifications.  You're probably going to find that a 9 mm premium hollowpoint round will have about the same efficacy as a 357 Sig premium hollowpoint, a .40 premium hollowpoint, etc.  The question is if the extra recoil of a more powerful caliber is going to be worth a very small increase?  



> although nowhere near the stopping power of a  .30 06 rifle round.



Again, apples and oranges.  For that matter, it's probably closer to comparing apples to turnips.  



> So I would go with a .357 magnum hollow point. Preferably a critical defense round by Hornady.



On what grounds?  What platform?  



> The .44 magnum is a bit too hard to control.



This is not necessarily true at all.  If you use a .44 magnum in the way it was intended to be used (longer barrel, nice solid N-frame platform), then the recoil from a full fledged .44 magnum load isn't going to be difficult to control at all.  Too many people buy into the Dirty Harry hype... 



> Now, while the handgun might be a poor manstopper unlike a good .30 06 rifle round or a 12 gauge round, I would think a .357 Magnum would stop just about anybody from close range provided you hit them, and by close range I mean around 5 feet or closer not 20 feet away.



Again, you're taking some poor guesses here.  I think you'll find with a bit of reading and testing, that just about any commonly used handgun round (9 mm or greater) used in a defensive setting is going to do about the same job, regardless of whether you are 5 feet away or 20 feet away (they don't lose nearly as much velocity from that distance as you may believe).


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## Grenadier (Sep 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Is it really really necessary for you to even read my posts much less respond to them? If you don't like them don't read them. And you're the one who doesn't get it not me. Don't read my posts if you don't like them.



If you don't like what someone says, then you can always choose not to read his responses.  Nobody is forcing you to read his responses to your posts.


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## Tgace (Sep 3, 2014)

The "best" pistol round for ME is the largest caliber (that provides the fastest reasonable velocity) I can hit the target with that allows me the greatest capacity in a reasonable size.

I"ll take 9mm over .357 because I want more rounds. Ill take .40 over 9mm because I like heavier bullets. Ill take a revolver over a Desert Eagle block of metal because I like to have something I can actually carry day in day out.

The point is that there are many factors in your selection. I find My Glock 22 fits my personal bill nicely.


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## Tgace (Sep 3, 2014)

Tgace said:


> The "best" pistol round for ME is the largest caliber (that provides the fastest reasonable velocity) I can hit the target with that allows me the greatest capacity in a reasonable size.
> 
> I"ll take 9mm over .357 because I want more rounds. Ill take .40 over 9mm because I like heavier bullets. Ill take a revolver over a Desert Eagle block of metal because I like to have something I can actually carry day in day out.
> 
> The point is that there are many factors in your selection. I find My Glock 22 fits my personal bill nicely.



And then there's the controllability factor. I can dump a lot more 9mm rounds into a target faster than I can .357....others experience/abilities may differ, but I know my limitations.


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## ST1Doppelganger (Sep 3, 2014)

There's not a magical pistol round just some better choices if guns and ammo you can use. 

Rite now I have a 45 ACP with some type of Winchester  Defense round in it. 

I do plan on getting the Smith & Wesson governor and use the hornaday critical defense round in it for my home defense gun. 

Check out this video on YouTube:







Sent from my iPhone


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I would think a .357 magnum would have better stopping power than a 9mm especially at point blank although nowhere near the stopping power of a  .30 06 rifle round.



One of the great things about America is that you can think whatever foolishness you like.
A .357 may or may not have more "stopping power" than a 9mm fired from the same range and (since accuracy is more important than caliber) hitting exactly the same target. Your statement is categorically incorrect, however, because you have not addressed the variables of (among others) barrel length, bullet weight, muzzle velocity and expansion characteristics of the round. You've also ignored the 6 or 7 round capacity of the .357 compared to the 15+ round capacity of the 9mm.



PhotonGuy said:


> So I would go with a .357 magnum hollow point. Preferably a critical defense round by Hornady.



Hornady makes good ammo. Whether or not it is the best choice for a particular person firing a particular weapon is quite debatable. I like the Hornady Critical Defense loads for my wives Bersa Thunder380. I hate them in my Ruger P95 and S&W Model 66. After actually testing ammo, I carry Hydroshocks in the .357. The 9mm is loaded with Glaser Silvers, with the spare magazines holding Black Talons and Hydroshocks.



PhotonGuy said:


> The .44 magnum is a bit too hard to control.



No. It's not. 



PhotonGuy said:


> Now, while the handgun might be a poor manstopper unlike a good .30 06 rifle round or a 12 gauge round, I would think a .357 Magnum would stop just about anybody from close range provided you hit them, and by close range I mean around 5 feet or closer not 20 feet away.



At 5 feet I can ask you which nostril you'd like the bullet to go through, so the caliber is pretty much a moot point.

View attachment $Target 01.jpg

This was shot today. Ruger P95. 115gr FMJ. 6 yards. Single fire. 15 rounds.
Now, here's a test for you. Is a 15 round grouping such as that a good thing for personal defense shooting? Why or why not?


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## elder999 (Sep 3, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> At 5 feet I can ask you which nostril you'd like the bullet to go through, so the caliber is pretty much a moot point.
> 
> View attachment 18904



Nice shootin'.



Dirty Dog said:


> .
> Now, here's a test for you. Is a 15 round grouping such as that a good thing for personal defense shooting? Why or why not?



Nah. 

In a personal defense shooting, it's pretty likely that you wasted the last 13 shots........... on a dead guy......:lfao:

"Zombie" personal defense, I guess-but then you probably just wanna put one in the brain? I dunno......:lfao:

Sorry, I'm outta here....carry on.

(That is some nice shootin' though, DirtyDog..)


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 4, 2014)

Its hard to put a bullet up somebody's nose when they're swinging at you which they probably will be doing if they're only 5 feet away from you. You might be able to get a body shot. That's how it was in the video I posted in the other thread with the police officer up against the big former heavyweight boxer.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 4, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Its hard to put a bullet up somebody's nose when they're swinging at you which they probably will be doing if they're only 5 feet away from you. You might be able to get a body shot. That's how it was in the video I posted in the other thread with the police officer up against the big former heavyweight boxer.



I'll use my Magic Chi Powers to slow time, harden my skin to the consistency of iron and warp space so the punch misses. All at the same time.

I notice you didn't answer the question I asked you...


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## Instructor (Sep 4, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'll use my Magic Chi Powers to slow time, harden my skin to the consistency of iron and warp space so the punch misses. All at the same time.
> 
> I notice you didn't answer the question I asked you...



You do that too?


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## elder999 (Sep 4, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Its hard to put a bullet up somebody's nose when they're swinging at you which they probably will be doing if they're only 5 feet away from you. You might be able to get a body shot. That's how it was in the video I posted in the other thread with the police officer up against the big former heavyweight boxer.




I posted in another thread about close-combat pistol shooting.

Most police departments don't train patrol officers for it.

It's as easy to put a bullet up someone's nose from 5 feet away-or closer-as squeezing the trigger, really.


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## Hong Kong Pooey (Sep 5, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> One of the great things about America is that you can think whatever foolishness you like.
> A .357 may or may not have more "stopping power" than a 9mm fired from the same range and (since accuracy is more important than caliber) hitting exactly the same target. Your statement is categorically incorrect, however, because you have not addressed the variables of (among others) barrel length, bullet weight, muzzle velocity and expansion characteristics of the round. You've also ignored the 6 or 7 round capacity of the .357 compared to the 15+ round capacity of the 9mm.
> 
> 
> ...



Nice grouping sir!

To answer your question, it depends...

If you mean pumping 15 rounds into the same part of the bad guy's body then no. It's either as elder said a waste of most of the bullets shooting at a corpse, or you've shot him in the arm or somewhere non-lethal 15 times and not necessarily stopped him, when a quick change of target to the head or heart would have saved you 12 or 13 bullets.

If however it's a sign that you can hit whatever your aiming at 15 times in a row then yes!

Just mho from a Brit who only owns an air pistol.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 6, 2014)

Hong Kong Pooey said:


> Nice grouping sir!
> 
> To answer your question, it depends...
> 
> ...



I was hoping PhotonGuy would answer, but he dodged the question. Color me unshocked.

Actually, from the standpoint of damage done to the bad guy, a grouping like mine is NEVER a good thing. Gun shots cause injury by tunneling and by cavitation. The ideal grouping is one large enough that the cavitation injuries don't  overlap, or not by  much. How large that grouping needs to be varies widely. 
The only time a grouping like mine would possibly be good wold be if you were firing a small caliber, FMJ round (which would mean the absolute smallest possible cavitatioin injury) being fired into a vital organ.
With that gun (a Ruger P95 9mm) I'd likely aim to put one round into each side of the upper chest, 3-4" apart, and a third round between the eyes.


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## elder999 (Sep 6, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, from the standpoint of damage done to the bad guy, a grouping like mine is NEVER a good thing. Gun shots cause injury by tunneling and by cavitation. The ideal grouping is one large enough that the cavitation injuries don't overlap, or not by much. How large that grouping needs to be varies widely.
> The only time a grouping like mine would possibly be good wold be if you were firing a small caliber, FMJ round (which would mean the absolute smallest possible cavitatioin injury) being fired into a vital organ.
> With that gun (a Ruger P95 9mm) I'd likely aim to put one round into each side of the upper chest, 3-4" apart, and a third round between the eyes.



Spoken like a medical person. Color me shocked! :lfao: 

Seriously, "double-taps" are about where it's at, and by that I mean Jeff Cooper's "hammer": sight picture-squeeze-squeeze.
Oh-oh, here come's the arguments! (rubs hands)

You'll do, though, Mark-you'll do.:lol:


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## elder999 (Sep 6, 2014)

elder999 said:


> Spoken like a medical person. Color me shocked! :lfao:



Put another way, that pattern isn't too dissimilar to a single shot from 12ga shotgun loaded with buckshot at the same range. 

That'll cavitate *and* ventilate 'em properly. :lfao:

Oh-oh, here come the arguments: I am in no way equating 00 buckshot with 9mm ammo.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 6, 2014)

Double taps are still aimed...


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 6, 2014)

That 15 round grouping is great for competitive target shooting but for personal defense its a waste. The fact that the shots are so close together in the center of the body means that you want to speed up and get the shots off faster and perhaps make the hits a little bit wider. In the heat of a confrontation your shots will be twice as wide and the grouping is so close that you could probably do fine with them four times as wide so to shoot faster and sacrifice some accuracy so your shots are twice as wide under practice conditions would be a good idea. Accuracy isn't everything, speed is important too and speed and accuracy are directionally proportional when your speed goes up your accuracy goes down. And you don't want to put all fifteen shots into the thoracic cavity, the section of the body that consists of the chest and includes the heart and lungs. You want to take two shots to the thoracic cavity and if that doesn't stop the bad guy you take one shot to the ocular cavity, a head shot which falls within the area starting right at the eyes and which goes down to right above the mouth. 

At least that is what I've been taught in class.


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## punisher73 (Sep 6, 2014)

As others have said, shot placement and rounds on target are more important.

I was at the range one time doing drills and could tell from the sound of the shot that the guy a couple lanes down was using a .45, being nosey I looked over at his lane and his target was far enough back to see where he was hitting.  The founds were ALL OVER THE PLACE, including the white space of the target (misses on a body).  I got even nosier and stepped back out of my lane to watch him and the guy was just flinching horribly before every shot.  He was scared of his gun.  It doesn't matter how good the ammo was or how decked out that .45 might have been.  It was worthless in his hands.

The only advice I EVER give somebody when buying a gun is to try out various brands (main reliable ones only, no cheapo unknown kinds) and calibers and find what feels the best in their hand and the one they can hit the target the best.  There is no one BEST gun or caliber.  I always use the analogy that guns are like women's shoes.  You have a different gun for each occasion.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 6, 2014)

If he was flinching than he was an experienced shooter or at least he wasn't experienced with the gun he was using. One of the best ways to deal with a flinching problem is by doing dry practice (practicing with an unloaded gun). That way you don't have an explosion going off two feet from your face and you can get used to using the gun without flinching and you can develop other good habits too.


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