# Bulllies-Is fighting back work?



## still learning (Mar 18, 2006)

Hello, Two stories here, One was a six grader and the other 8 grader. The six grader is presently a student of Kempo and was pick on by two boys after school when they get off the bus, finally the Dad said "Son if you need to fight back, go for it" (this was after the father told him to try and solved this another way) The six grader fought back and two days later they became best of friends.

The eight grader was pick on by another bully, and it went on for a while, finnally the Dad told him Fight back too! A week later they were friends

There are more too this story and I was just trying to get to this point...?

It seems that dealing with bullies... ,the pick on person will find "getting into a fight with bully" seems to end the haressment. The eigth grader was a former student of our Kempo school too, and this story was told to me by his Dad.

Both Parents told their boys not to get into a fight....and both try to settle it in other ways. The school nor the parents of the other boys were of no help. Finnally they said "fight back" and the bullying ended for both of them. Today the bullies no longer pick on them and now are there friends.......

In these cases....it seems it is best to face the bully and fight back....? young kids. Will it work for older people? 

What are your thoughts on this? ......................Aloha


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 18, 2006)

There is a lot of contemporary advice on bullies, doled out by schools and other organizations, that is completely and absurdly wrong.  "Try to make the bully your friend... use humor to defuse the situation... tell a parent or teacher... blah blah blah."  The overwhelming majority of these lists of suggestions are utter crap and I get annoyed every time I see them.

Bullies understand only one thing:  force.  You don't necessarily have to win the fight, but you have to make it clear that the bully won't be able to intimidate you without having to really work for it.  Like a car thief moving on to cars without security devices, he will choose an easier target rather than persist with someone who makes the whole bullying process harder.

When I was in fourth grade and again in ninth grade, I contended with different extremely aggressive bullies who were also much larger than me at the time.  In both cases, the only thing that stopped months of bullying was finally fighting back.  I lost the first fight in fourth grade -- there was no way I could win, given the disparity in our sizes and my total lack of fighting knowledge -- but that bully never bothered me again.  By the ninth grade I was big enough to win and, when I was a junior and my former bully was a senior, he even asked me to sign his yearbook for him.

"Come on," he said when I hesitated.  "I haven't given you any trouble since you tried to kill me that time."


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## MartialIntent (Mar 18, 2006)

Fighting back against bullies is *the only way* imHo. I believe bullying situations are most frequent amongst schoolchildren, and direct engaging of the bully [without necessarily becoming physical] generally resolves the situation without further escalation. I'm an ex-schoolteacher - and whilst this fight-back practice was certainly never *officially* sanctioned within the schools in which I taught, its success was well-proven where it went on without teachers' prior knowledge.

As adults, the most common form of serial bullying seems to occur in the workplace [anything other physical or verbal harrassment must be classed as agressive anti-social or fighting behaviour and must be treated differently from serial bullying].

Workplace bullying is often much more subtle, harder to prove and more difficult to engage with. What I have noted is that it is still those who are less vociferous, meeker and perhaps less confident who [as is the case with kids] are the targets for bullies in the workplace.

I see no reason why fighting back against an adult bully would be any less successful in quashing the behavior than it is for a child. Fight back I say...

Respects!


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## SAVAGE (Mar 18, 2006)

There needs to be some avenues other than violence..but if it escalates...by all means defend yourself..I have found that bullies just want attention generally...and if you deny them that attention you should be allright...but obviously this varies from situation to situation!

But i think reporting to the relevant authourities is always the first step...before going vigilante (Rogue Ninja)...in the bully!!

I am glad that those two boys turned out allright....because the story could just have easily have gone...one boy was bullied after school...after using his thundering hammer techniques from kenpo karate.....he beat the bullies....one of the bullies went home and got his fathers glock...came to school and blew the boys head off!!

Violence begets violence!


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## Drac (Mar 18, 2006)

Phil Elmore said:
			
		

> There is a lot of contemporary advice on bullies, doled out by schools and other organizations, that is completely and absurdly wrong. The overwhelming majority of these lists of suggestions are utter crap and I get annoyed every time I see them.


 
Amen Brother..Went through this with my stepdaughter who was constantly picked on by this large female who disliked her Hispanic looks..I spent a weekend showing her some moves based on how I was told this bully attacked..Sure enough on the following the bully attacked and my stepdaughter beat her butt.


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## beau_safken (Mar 18, 2006)

I met my best friend after getting my *** kicked by a bully in elementary school.  My friend promtly pummeled the bully and I never had to hear about that again.  

Come to think of it...In high school there was a time where a kid that was the boyfriend of a girl I disagreed with in student council got in my face.  He had his large friend grab me and put me against a wall.  I was in my ROTC uniform at the time so I had a nice assortment of pins and sharp studded ribbons and lapel insignia at my disposal.  The large kid grabbed me on the lapels and I prompty removed the frogs exposing the 1/4" metal posts and jabbed it into his hand.  He pulled back and I smacked him on across the face.  One shot...boom...knocked out.  The little kid that started it just looked at me and didnt move.  I walked up to him and told him that if his woman has a problem, have her talk with me so your friends dont get hurt next time.  This kid I knocked out was very apologitic to me from there on out.  And the little guy that started the whole thing avoided me like the plague.  Was a nice liberating feeling honestly.  Word of it passed very fast thru the school and I wasnt getting looked at or anything from the ghetto bangers at all anymore.  

Nothing like a little lesson about those in uniform to straighten out a situation.


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## Grenadier (Mar 18, 2006)

There can certainly be a time when diplomacy fails, and trying to go through the "proper channels" is of no help.  

In those cases, by all means, fight, and fight to the best of your abilities.  In these situations, someone means to do harm to you, and it's important to make it clear in the only language that they will understand.  

Of course, there can be consequences to deal with after the brouhaha, but it's better to have to deal with those consequences while still be relatively intact, than to not be able to do so...


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## terryl965 (Mar 18, 2006)

If you do not stand up for yourself weather or not you get your *** kick, if you don;t they keep coming at you. My advice is stand up and atleast you will earn some respect no matter how the fight goes and the majority of bullies will leave you alone if they can'y harrass you all the time not worth there time and effort.
Terry


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 19, 2006)

It's important to draw a distinction between, let's say 'bullying' and 'bullies'.  There are better words, but those will do.

A bully is somebody who habitually uses their unfair advantage (physical, intellectual, social, political) to hurt, harm or embarass others.  Bullies understand only force and must be stood up to, usually with success because bullies are cowards.  The goal of a bully is to look bigger than they are by making someone else look small.  If you show any sign of being able to make the bully look small, they'll find a way out.

Bully_ing_ is the behavior.  Sometimes this is done by a bully (or more than one), sometimes by people who aren't necessarily bullies but are having a bad day, or trying to impress somebody or some other similar reason.  The behavior is unjustified and unjustifiable.  That said, these are the situations where a lot of that p.c. nonsense will actually work:  using humor, leaving the area, compassion.  These will often work in a situation where you are being bullied by people who aren't bullies.  The goal of such a person isn't always the same as a bully, so the strategies that work against a bully aren't necessarily going to work here.

It's also important to remember (especially in the school system) to 'go through channels', as a few have already pointed out.  If for no other reason than to have a paper trail of the things your child tried before stomping a mudhole in the bully.  School districts are notoriously anti-violence these days and you need to have your ducks in a row.


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## still learning (Mar 19, 2006)

Hello, Great thoughts--Thank-you for sharing.

I remember a teacher in School who said Bullies become that way because they are looking for attention (which they don't get at home). There parents do not know how to raise there kids. NOT enough time spent raising them, and not been good role models for their kids.

That is why many become bullies, drugies, do crimes,...trying to get some attention drawn to them.

Parents must grow up and realize once you have children...no longer you should focus on your life ...but to give everything you can to raise them to be the best they can.

One survey show what Parents want?.. when their children grow up?

The most common answer was? THAT THEY GROW UP TO BE A GOOD PERSON.

Just my thoughts.............Aloha


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## Flatlander (Mar 19, 2006)

There are some interesting points brought forward by "Martial Artists for Peace" on the subject of bullying.


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 19, 2006)

> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]oung Person:[/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Learn how to Defeat the Bully  The Smart Way - using the 12 Ways to Walk Away with Confidence[/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Understand how to get real power without fighting or getting hurt![/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Learn what Fighting the Invisible Enemy is![/FONT]
> ...



[/FONT]
Yes, that's exactly the sort of high-minded and useless crap to which I was referring when I spoke of the nonsense being peddled as anti-bully advice.

Bullies understand only one thing:  force.  To stop a bully, you must make it clear that he cannot bully you for free, that there is a price to pay in time, trouble, and resistance, thus dissuading him from harassing you.  Al the "walking away with confidence" in the world won't stop him from tormenting you day after day _until you finally stand up for yourself using the language of violence_.  Bullies don't understand "peace."  They don't give a good damn about your "character."  They understand only predator and prey relationships.


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## Hand Sword (Mar 20, 2006)

In schools, Yes, stand up to bullies! In the adult world, Yes, stand up to an assailant. Your going to get hurt either way, at least have some company in the hospital.


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## MartialIntent (Mar 20, 2006)

Phil Elmore said:
			
		

> [/size][/font]
> [/list]Yes, that's exactly the sort of high-minded and useless crap to which I was referring when I spoke of the nonsense being peddled as anti-bully advice.
> 
> Bullies understand only one thing: force. To stop a bully, you must make it clear that he cannot bully you for free, that there is a price to pay in time, trouble, and resistance, thus dissuading him from harassing you. Al the "walking away with confidence" in the world won't stop him from tormenting you day after day _until you finally stand up for yourself using the language of violence_. Bullies don't understand "peace." They don't give a good damn about your "character." They understand only predator and prey relationships.


I'd agree that so insidiously nowadays, empathizing with the victim is overlooked at the expense of understanding and rehabilitating the offender. I've read of *way* too many kids locally where I live who have been so affected and traumatized by bullying that they have seen no recourse but to take their own lives...

I believe these tragedies could have been averted if these poor kids had felt there was some other vehicle for resolution besides the turn the other cheek or walk away with confidence. There are many alternative resolutions to bullying situations but unfortunately we seem hell bent on cajoling the offenders and it's persistently at the expense of protecting our young people who are being victimized.

Despite the peace-seeking tenets of my martial art, it's never been about avoiding conflicts where one has presented itself to you. It is however concerned with best practice for complete closure on a conflict. Walking away never solved anything. Likewise, fighting back doesn't necessarily equate to physical contact. Often it's enough that the victim of bullying can muster sufficient courage just to show *intent* to follow through should the bully wish to continue the harassment. It's this courage that we should seek to engender in our kids, not servile submission.

Fight back!

Respects!


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## Hand Sword (Mar 20, 2006)

Right on! Turning the other cheek gets you 2 black eyes, instead of 1.


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## Flatlander (Mar 20, 2006)

Phil Elmore said:
			
		

> [/size][/font]
> [/list]Yes, that's exactly the sort of high-minded and useless crap to which I was referring when I spoke of the nonsense being peddled as anti-bully advice.


I won't disagree that fighting back may be a useful strategy in dealing with bullies.  I will assert, however, that this is a strategy that won't be appropriate or applicable for all people.  Each individual will have to come up with a response which they're comfortable with - force will not be everyone's solution.  Under those circumstances, perhaps the availability of alternative strategies and supports can be a useful thing.


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 20, 2006)

I think that's most often wishful thinking.


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## shesulsa (Mar 20, 2006)

Phil Elmore said:
			
		

> I think that's most often wishful thinking.



I think that depends upon the age, venue and nature of the situation.


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 20, 2006)

I don't.  Bullying is bullying.


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## Flatlander (Mar 20, 2006)

Phil Elmore said:
			
		

> I don't. Bullying is bullying.


So, are you asserting that force is the only response for all victims of bullying?  I don't buy that.  It's quite simply not going to be a reasonable course of actions for all victims in all circumstances.  To suggest a blanket fix all solution is an oversimplification of the issue, and could quite possibly encourage children to expose themselves to unecessary danger.  It's an irresponsible recommendation, IMO.

There are times when intervention is necessary by parents, school officials, or even psychologists.  Being bullied is not the fault of the victim - it's the manifestation of a troubled child's aggression.  To advise a child in all circumstances to respond with force without taking the time to understand the specifics is lazy, dangerous, immature, and uncivilized.


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## shesulsa (Mar 20, 2006)

Phil Elmore said:
			
		

> I don't.  Bullying is bullying.


Is it, now?

So ... me being bullied by an adult would be no different than my daughter being bullied by a tough chick at school?  I beg to differ.

A unilateral approach just isn't the best answer. It's one answer - probably the easiest and, hence, often justified and rationalized by people with a certain type of mentality.

Interesting.


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 20, 2006)

While the context will change -- as will the options realistically open to you (a child can punch someone in a situation that would put an adult in jail for the same action) -- the fundamental principle at work does not change.  A bully will treat you as you allow him to treat you -- and he will not stop until you make it clear that you are prepared to resist using force.

Bullies are bullies.  No amount of touchy-feely-make-him-your-friend New Age nonsense will change that.


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## WingChun Lawyer (Mar 20, 2006)

Bullies are not bullies. Not in such an easily qualified manner anyway. There is bullying at work, there is bullying at school, and there is bullying done by five drunkards eager for a fight against one unarmed, elderly person in a subway.

Not all situations warrant the same response. 

Stating all bullying situations warrant physical reaction is as ignorant as stating a physical reaction is never warranted. Absolutes are usually stupid, and this is a typical case.

Incidentally, I also became friends with a bully at school after choking him out when I was 12 (blessed be judo, God´s gift to mankind). So I do believe children should fight back when the situation calls for it. But saying fighting back is always a good idea is just silly.


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## MartialIntent (Mar 20, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> Incidentally, I also became friends with a bully at school after choking him out when I was 12 (blessed be judo, God´s gift to mankind). So I do believe children should fight back when the situation calls for it. But saying fighting back is always a good idea is just silly.


I say fighting back is the *only* response to bullying. Period. However, I'd qualify that by saying that "fightback" response by no means necessarily has to be physical. There are many ways to fight back but at the end of the day - in order for the bullying to cease, the bully must know that he or she will be met with resistance [and possibly physical force] should they wish to continue the bullying.

This applies to equally to the workplace and the schoolyard. I have witnessed both. Regarding children, generally we'd advise them to report bullying in the first instance to a teacher. Bullying is treated with extreme gravity here in the UK as I'm sure it is elsewhere. The school will deal as severely with the bully as it's disciplinary framework allows [which isn't always a great deal imHo] however where the school is impotent and utterly powerless is afterwards out on the street. This can be the most terrifying time for kids as reporting the behaviour will often have led to an escalation in the scale of the problem and is also why many cases go unreported - the child eventually reaching that point where they feel so failed by so-called right-thinking adults that they really do see no other release to the relentless daily torture of bullying than suicide.

As martial artists, almost all of us will train concepts such as situational awareness, de-escalation and conflict avoidance but bullying is one of those advanced cases where we as martial artists would be taking the split-second decision to fight or run. The problem with bullying is that it's recurring and serial in nature meaning that were you to have chosen to run previously, not only will the bully have sought you out again but now your fate is sealed, the bully knows you have no confidence to fight back.

I maintain therefore that the only practical mentoring we should be showing our young people in particular regarding bullying is to fight back. Physical or non-physical will depend on the situation but for bullying to cease, a line in the sand must be drawn with confidence - and it's confidence we can give to our kids through our martial arts.

It would be my wish that we would hear the inanity in our own attitudes and stop blindly taking the offender's side so often. Consider the victims.

Respects!


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 20, 2006)

> I say fighting back is the *only* response to bullying. Period. However, I'd qualify that by saying that "fightback" response by no means necessarily has to be physical.


 
I'd agree with that, cautiously.  Force need not be a punch in the eye to be force or its credible threat.


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## shesulsa (Mar 20, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I say fighting back is the *only* response to bullying. Period. However, I'd qualify that by saying that "fightback" response by no means necessarily has to be physical. There are many ways to fight back but at the end of the day - in order for the bullying to cease, the bully must know that he or she will be met with resistance [and possibly physical force] should they wish to continue the bullying.
> 
> This applies to equally to the workplace and the schoolyard. I have witnessed both. Regarding children, generally we'd advise them to report bullying in the first instance to a teacher. Bullying is treated with extreme gravity here in the UK as I'm sure it is elsewhere. The school will deal as severely with the bully as it's disciplinary framework allows [which isn't always a great deal imHo] however where the school is impotent and utterly powerless is afterwards out on the street. This can be the most terrifying time for kids as reporting the behaviour will often have led to an escalation in the scale of the problem and is also why many cases go unreported - the child eventually reaching that point where they feel so failed by so-called right-thinking adults that they really do see no other release to the relentless daily torture of bullying than suicide.
> 
> ...



Here here!


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## Cryozombie (Mar 20, 2006)

A couple times, When I was younger, I was bullied.  Finally I got fed up and fought back.

The first time, was in gradeschool, and I beat the snot out of the kid.  I was put in detention for it, and when I got out he was waiting with 3 friends, and the four of em kicked my ***.

The second time, was in high school, there was a kid who used to punch me everytime I waked past him in the hall.  One day I was fed up, and he came up to punch me, and I sidestepped, kicked him in the stomach and knocked him down, then kept walking.  He came into the classroom I was in, FURIOUS and screaming how he was gonna kick my ***.   The moron teacher sent BOTH of us to the principles office unescorted, even after I tried to tell her that was a stupid idea.

Needless to say we fought in the hall.  But it was the last time he hit me.

So I'd say... it can go either way.


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## still learning (Mar 20, 2006)

Hello, George Bush believes in fighting bullies....look what he did to Saddam? 

Each person and sitution could be work out differently.  But in the two boys,...fighting back ended the sitution and they became friends.

There are times fighting is the answer?  ...We live in a world where it is FIGHT or FLEE.....human nature....not always smart? ......Aloha


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## Kenpodoc (Mar 20, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I say fighting back is the *only* response to bullying. Period. However, I'd qualify that by saying that "fightback" response by no means necessarily has to be physical. There are many ways to fight back but at the end of the day - in order for the bullying to cease, the bully must know that he or she will be met with resistance [and possibly physical force] should they wish to continue the bullying.
> 
> This applies to equally to the workplace and the schoolyard. I have witnessed both. Regarding children, generally we'd advise them to report bullying in the first instance to a teacher. Bullying is treated with extreme gravity here in the UK as I'm sure it is elsewhere. The school will deal as severely with the bully as it's disciplinary framework allows [which isn't always a great deal imHo] however where the school is impotent and utterly powerless is afterwards out on the street. This can be the most terrifying time for kids as reporting the behaviour will often have led to an escalation in the scale of the problem and is also why many cases go unreported - the child eventually reaching that point where they feel so failed by so-called right-thinking adults that they really do see no other release to the relentless daily torture of bullying than suicide.
> 
> ...


Good post.  I sent my son to Kenpo classes. he didn't knowthe techniques weren't supposed to work and knocked a kid out with "Raining Claw." School was much easier after that.

Another difficult issue for kids is finding a solution for dealing with adult bullies.

Jeff


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## Hand Sword (Mar 21, 2006)

Just make sure that he doesn't join "the dark side" and let his new found confidence, and power cause him to become a bully.


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## MartialIntent (Mar 21, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Good post. I sent my son to Kenpo classes. he didn't knowthe techniques weren't supposed to work and knocked a kid out with "Raining Claw." School was much easier after that.


Exactly! No one wishes their children to become embroiled in bullying situations but I think we rest happier knowing our kids have the confidence to say "No! You ain't stomping on me any more!"


			
				Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Another difficult issue for kids is finding a solution for dealing with adult bullies.


That's an extremely important issue you have raised because it implies that a key link of trust between adult and child has been broken somewhere in the chain. This for me is by far the worst and gravest bullying situation of all. The greatest difficulty here can also be that the bullying adult is often one who is close to the child [parent, guardian or relative, teacher or - as has notably been the case recently - priest].

*Question*: in our capacities as martial arts instructors / parents / teachers, how do we advise our young people in these situations on the most practical and confident way to negotiate this distress? I'm referring specifically to the interim [after the child has confided the bullying to someone in whom they trust] in which the appropriate social services are being typically tardy at best and incompetent at worst?

Interested in opinions...

Respects!


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## Hand Sword (Mar 21, 2006)

I would say that if they go through the options, and still the bully keeps on, maybe away from supervision, on the way home etc... Than they have to deal with the bully! I remeber, and have seen in the school age group, this encounter ends up with them being friends in the end.


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