# JKD principle I thought I understood...but actually didn't



## Xue Sheng (Oct 19, 2015)

I trained a little JKD, on the "original concept" side of the fence. The guy I trained with was a student of Jerry Poteet. I am far from a JKD man and all I really know is basics, and due to age and injuries aI doubt I will get back to train it again, but I have heard this phrase applied to JKD for a long time

"Longest Weapon to the Closest Target"

Which I thought I understood.... well I didn't. I was watching an old video of Jerry Poteet teaching basics and the "Longest Weapon to the Closest Target" phrase showed up and much to my surprise he was hitting the other persons hand (the closet target) with his lead (the longest weapon). Up until that moment I was thinking body and head shots.... "Longest Weapon to the Closest Target" makes a lot more since now.

Just wanted to share my stupidity and the little moment of enlightenment I got from late Jerry Poteet


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## The Great Gigsy (Oct 19, 2015)

@Xue Sheng, I wouldn't necessarily say your line of thinking about head or stomach being the closest is wrong. As I have not seen the video too which you refer Jerry Pottet may have been speaking for that particular moment such as head to trap or parry an attack.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 19, 2015)

The Great Gigsy said:


> @Xue Sheng, I wouldn't necessarily say your line of thinking about head or stomach being the closest is wrong. As I have not seen the video too which you refer Jerry Pottet may have been speaking for that particular moment such as head to trap or parry an attack.



It was JKD basics and he was actually hitting the other person in the hand. Demonstrating using the longest weapon to hit the closest target.


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## drop bear (Oct 20, 2015)

Defang the snake?


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## The Great Gigsy (Oct 20, 2015)

@Xue Sheng, I will have to take a look at that. I found some some videos of Sifu Pottet on YouTube, good stuff.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 20, 2015)

The Great Gigsy said:


> @Xue Sheng, I wouldn't necessarily say your line of thinking about head or stomach being the closest is wrong. As I have not seen the video too which you refer Jerry Pottet may have been speaking for that particular moment such as head to trap or parry an attack.


No, it was wrong. The hand is a target, in some States,


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 20, 2015)

Advice, keep those targets closer to your vital targets.


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## The Great Gigsy (Oct 20, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> No, it was wrong. The hand is a target, in some States,


I agree that the hand can be the closest target, such as an instance when you trap or parry using the lead side. But the premise of longest weapon for the closest target goes beyond targeting the hand of an opponent. For example a snap kick to the jimmy johns, I'm using my lead side which provides the longest reach while still providing me with the best protection. In my understanding this is the point within the logic behind the longest weapon for the closest target.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 20, 2015)

He was also kicking the lead leg of the opponent with his lead leg. Now that I thought of before, it was just I never even considered the hands as a target in the whole "Longest Weapon to the Closest Target philosophy


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 20, 2015)

The Great Gigsy said:


> I agree that the hand can be the closest target, such as an instance when you trap or parry using the lead side. But the premise of longest weapon for the closest target goes beyond targeting the hand of an opponent. For example a snap kick to the jimmy johns, I'm using my lead side which provides the longest reach while still providing me with the best protection. In my understanding this is the point within the logic behind the longest weapon for the closest target.


Well, yeah, the concept could still apply to desirable targets, But you gotta chain up to them, which brings us back to what ever they foolishly stick out there to be hit.


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## Thunder Foot (Nov 7, 2015)

I've seen the video you're talking about Xue. The cool thing about the principles is once you know them, you can interpret them for yourself, as Poteet demo'd. And while the attacking the hand may be one interpretation of this principle, the question then becomes what is the most economical way to express not only this principle,  but also the sum of the others in such a movement. 

Another adjacent principle is 'strongest weapon weakest target'.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 13, 2015)

Thunder Foot said:


> I've seen the video you're talking about Xue. The cool thing about the principles is once you know them, you can interpret them for yourself, as Poteet demo'd. And while the attacking the hand may be one interpretation of this principle, the question then becomes what is the most economical way to express not only this principle,  but also the sum of the others in such a movement.
> 
> Another adjacent principle is 'strongest weapon weakest target'.



This is what I like about JKD, if one can get past the politics of it, it crosses over so well to other arts. My short time in JKD taught me a lot about Xingyiquan. However I did not see a lot in relation to Taijiquan, until the Poteet video. Gave me a lot to think about as it applies to apps in Taijiquan, the attacking the nearest target and the 'strongest weapon weakest target' applies as well. but for some reason in taijiquan this is leading me to think qinna


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 2, 2017)

Old post.... but I will add to it.    The principle of "*Longest Weapon To The Closest Target"*
Also remember economy of motion and simplicity.   
And also what is intended behind the longest weapon to the closest target?   

Here is what I have learned and personal reflections.     
Lets take the hand as the target first.  Yes...  The hand may be the closest target.   So you deal with the hand.   That's what is close to you.
But then why does JKD have split entries where the hands are split and the target is the head, eyes, body.???
And the term defang the snake is in FMA a lot.   Which is usually dealt with blades and sticks.   Why come in a deadly range of the weapon to hit the opponent.   Take the weapon out first.  Defang the snake.   Then move one.

Longest Weapon to the Closest Target is really about keeping proper fighting measure.    Be on the brim of fire.   If you have the longer limbs... then be on the brim of fire where your opponent can not hit you... but you can hit him.   Or if you have shorter limbs.... be just outside his range so that you can quickly close.  
So when doing this... what weapon gets there first....your longest tool.  Your Leg usually.   In a generic fighting stance.... meaning JKD, TKD, BOXING etc... what is usually the closest to you....?  Their leg.   Usually.   So most of the time this means kick their lead leg with your lead leg.   Economy of motion.... simple.   Don't use your rear leg against their lead.   Take more time and effort.


Keeping good fighting measure is a result of good foot work.   Hence why Bruce use to make his students work foot work over and over again.   "Control the distance.... Control the fight"  
Hit from the outside.... and if you want to close after that then you have your wing chun skills that come into play inside.  

So when I read the "Longest Weapon to the Closest Target"   This is what goes through my mind.    Brim of fire... distance where I can hit and not be hit.   My longest weapon will keep me where I want to be.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Defang the snake?


Sounds like it.


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## marques (Feb 2, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> "Longest Weapon to the Closest Target"


I never did JKD, but use it as a safe setup starting or for checking opponent reactions. Never thought of the hands as targets, perhaps because my opponents wear gloves... 

But after the JKD principles, in which context "Longest Weapon to the Closest Target" is to be applied? Not all the time, I suppose.


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 2, 2017)

marques said:


> I never did JKD, but use it as a safe setup starting or for checking opponent reactions. Never thought of the hands as targets, perhaps because my opponents wear gloves...
> 
> But after the JKD principles, in which context "Longest Weapon to the Closest Target" is to be applied? Not all the time, I suppose.



Well in glove arts....  you can use as distractions...  jerk the glove hand down to clear the line.... or simply as a draw/ distraction for a leg kick.    But there are bare handed arts that use destructions against the bare hand.     So they are attacking the hand.   

Do you apply the principle alll the time?    Is that. The question?    It depends on the situation.    You train to take the fastest target and the quickest and fastest way to end the fight.


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## marques (Feb 3, 2017)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> Do you apply the principle all the time?    Is that. The question?    It depends on the situation.    You train to take the fastest target and the quickest and fastest way to end the fight.


So you use that principle to end the fight. That is the answer to my question. I never saw it as a fight ending.
What are the other principles in JKD?


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## wingchun100 (Feb 3, 2017)

I like the brim of fire idea...control the distance, control the fight. However, sometimes that is taken away from you. Think about it: you are at the bar getting a drink. You turn away from the bartender to find some ogre in your face because he thinks you were looking at his girlfriend earlier or something stupid. In that case, one of Bruce's other theories comes into play: control the CENTERLINE, control the fight.


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 3, 2017)

Yes...   There are always best cases and worst case.    Best case you control the distance.   And even with that distance you still control the centerline.     And if you can't control distance cause you back is against the wall table..... absolutely agree with you.

Hey... best way to control the distance.... stay out of bars with ogres.


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## marques (Feb 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I like the brim of fire idea...control the distance, control the fight. However, sometimes that is taken away from you. Think about it: you are at the bar getting a drink. You turn away from the bartender to find some ogre in your face because he thinks you were looking at his girlfriend earlier or something stupid. In that case, one of Bruce's other theories comes into play: control the CENTERLINE, control the fight.


JKD and WC focus a lot on the centre line. How do you deal with lateral lines (circular techniques)? What about lateral targets (liver, rate, ribs, legs...)?
Most of my (power) techniques are circular...


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 3, 2017)

If you are on the brim of fire(fighting Measure)....   You have to step in to perform your lateral strikes.    Maintaining proper distance makes you step in... which gives me time to intercept....or evade and counter.     If you are inside.... Then the JKD person is left with intercepting.   Straight line attacks have less distance to travel.  Hence they are faster given if both opponents has the same speed.      The quickest path between two points is straight.      Sometimes that line is covered so you have to go lateral like you are saying.   

So summary.   If I am on the brim of fire....  and aware and not sleeping... You need to attack to hit me.... I intercept... or evade and counter.   Inside.... I have to intercept.   Esp. if I am tooo deep.  

Take two people standing face to face.   same hand speed.   One throws a hook... one throws a straight punch.   Both launch at the same time...   Who lands first?      Of course this doesn't always happen.  But it shows how a person with slower hands can stop hit someone throwing a hook.


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## marques (Feb 3, 2017)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> If you are on the brim of fire(fighting Measure)....   You have to step in to perform your lateral strikes.    Maintaining proper distance makes you step in... which gives me time to intercept....or evade and counter.     If you are inside.... Then the JKD person is left with intercepting.   Straight line attacks have less distance to travel.  Hence they are faster given if both opponents has the same speed.      The quickest path between two points is straight.      Sometimes that line is covered so you have to go lateral like you are saying.
> 
> So summary.   If I am on the brim of fire....  and aware and not sleeping... You need to attack to hit me.... I intercept... or evade and counter.   Inside.... I have to intercept.   Esp. if I am tooo deep.
> 
> Take two people standing face to face.   same hand speed.   One throws a hook... one throws a straight punch.   Both launch at the same time...   Who lands first?      Of course this doesn't always happen.  But it shows how a person with slower hands can stop hit someone throwing a hook.


I understand what you say. But what if I step in while doing a straight (feint/fake-)attack (the usual)? Also, sometimes kicks don't require step in.

I would like to run some tactical experiments... Thank you for your answers, but I feel like I am learning swimming by a book. I need a swimming pool!


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## Juany118 (Feb 4, 2017)

The Great Gigsy said:


> I agree that the hand can be the closest target, such as an instance when you trap or parry using the lead side. But the premise of longest weapon for the closest target goes beyond targeting the hand of an opponent. For example a snap kick to the jimmy johns, I'm using my lead side which provides the longest reach while still providing me with the best protection. In my understanding this is the point within the logic behind the longest weapon for the closest target.



But you can actually attack the hand, as @drop bear said "defang the snake".  Example against a larger opponent (and I do put this into practice at work) I will sometimes try to use covers that put the elbow at front and center.  If he punches the elbow it can well break his fingers.  Once, because I was knee deep in it and out of options I basically used my forehead to head butt a punch, that did break the guys hand.  I am also a big fan, again against a stronger opponent, of not simply trapping the hand but going for small joint control.  He wants to keep fighting he will have some dislocated digits that will definitely reduce his effectiveness.

My understanding of JKD jives with what you are saying, that it goes beyond attacking the hand but you can, literally, attack the hand.  In FMA we call it gunting if we are using strikes


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 4, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> But you can actually attack the hand, as @drop bear said "defang the snake".  Example against a larger opponent (and I do put this into practice at work) I will sometimes try to use covers that put the elbow at front and center.  If he punches the elbow it can well break his fingers.  Once, because I was knee deep in it and out of options I basically used my forehead to head butt a punch, that did break the guys hand.  I am also a big fan, again against a stronger opponent, of not simply trapping the hand but going for small joint control.  He wants to keep fighting he will have some dislocated digits that will definitely reduce his effectiveness.
> 
> My understanding of JKD jives with what you are saying, that it goes beyond attacking the hand but you can, literally, attack the hand.  In FMA we call it gunting if we are using strikes


I don't know what they call it with a knife, flicking, I suppose, but you are supposed to flick a little piece of flesh, into their eyes.


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## Juany118 (Feb 4, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't know what they call it with a knife, flicking, I suppose, but you are supposed to flick a little piece of flesh, into their eyes.



Hmmm when we do the knife fighting we just get trained to do compressions cuts to the inside of the forearm/wrist and then with that opening stab em between the ribs and/or inner thigh.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 4, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Hmmm when we do the knife fighting we just get trained to do compressions cuts to the inside of the forearm/wrist and then with that opening stab em between the ribs and/or inner thigh.


It's a bonus tip.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 4, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Hmmm when we do the knife fighting we just get trained to do compressions cuts to the inside of the forearm/wrist and then with that opening stab em between the ribs and/or inner thigh.


The idea is to make them run away before it get's to that point.


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## Juany118 (Feb 4, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> The idea is to make them run away before it get's to that point.



Ahh, lol.  The way we train is that you shouldn't be using the knife unless already confronted by an armed subject.  In that circumstance you pretty much have to go all in to make through to the other side.  There isn't a lot of margin for error when facing an armed assailant and hoping something will make them change their mind and run can go sideways quickly.  Now I am not sure if that is how Guro Dan Inosanto would teach it, going to one of his seminars in April so maybe I'll get an idea then, but that's how it gets taught to me.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 4, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Ahh, lol.  The way we train is that you shouldn't be using the knife unless already confronted by an armed subject.  In that circumstance you pretty much have to go all in to make through to the other side.  There isn't a lot of margin for error when facing an armed assailant and hoping something will make them change their mind and run can go sideways quickly.


I'm sure that is true, but I am sure there was a call for restraint, when I was taught that lesson; so, I wouldn't get any crazy ideas.


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## Juany118 (Feb 4, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm sure that is true, but I am sure there was a call for restraint, when I was taught that lesson; so, I wouldn't get any crazy ideas.



Oh edited my post to include whether or not my Sifu/Guro is simply giving his own take vs what Guro Dan would say.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't know what they call it with a knife, flicking, I suppose, but you are supposed to flick a little piece of flesh, into their eyes.


Well, that's not very neighborly!


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 6, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> But you can actually attack the hand, as @drop bear said "defang the snake".  Example against a larger opponent (and I do put this into practice at work) I will sometimes try to use covers that put the elbow at front and center.  If he punches the elbow it can well break his fingers.  Once, because I was knee deep in it and out of options I basically used my forehead to head butt a punch, that did break the guys hand.  I am also a big fan, again against a stronger opponent, of not simply trapping the hand but going for small joint control.  He wants to keep fighting he will have some dislocated digits that will definitely reduce his effectiveness.
> 
> My understanding of JKD jives with what you are saying, that it goes beyond attacking the hand but you can, literally, attack the hand.  In FMA we call it gunting if we are using strikes



Paul vunak who does jkd from a dan inosanto does a lot of gunting from the Fma.
Dan did Fma before ever meeting Bruce lee.  Dan put Fma into his jkd.


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 6, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Ahh, lol.  The way we train is that you shouldn't be using the knife unless already confronted by an armed subject.  In that circumstance you pretty much have to go all in to make through to the other side.  There isn't a lot of margin for error when facing an armed assailant and hoping something will make them change their mind and run can go sideways quickly.  Now I am not sure if that is how Guro Dan Inosanto would teach it, going to one of his seminars in April so maybe I'll get an idea then, but that's how it gets taught to me.



Where is Guro dan going to be at?    I would love to go myself.   I have been to some in the past.   I always here of them after they happen.


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## Juany118 (Feb 6, 2017)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> Where is Guro dan going to be at?    I would love to go myself.   I have been to some in the past.   I always here of them after they happen.


Newport News Va, in April.  Funny you mentioned Paul Vunak, that is actually part of the way I come to Kali.  Guro Dan > Paul Vunak > James Keating > My Guro


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 7, 2017)

Thank you.     That might be out of my traveling distance.   Although I plan on attending one in NYC area and possibly one out in Western NY.       
I have never trained with Paul Vunak.   Although I have studied a ton of his videos.     I have had the opportunity to train with Chris Kent.   Someone that I thought did an awesome job teaching.   Definitely someone to train with if you have the chance.


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