# Question on Cross-Training



## AriesKai (Dec 25, 2009)

I feel that this is a question that could be answered for martial artists of all levels, especially for the noobs:


Should you cross-train into multiple different styles (such as BJJ, San Shou, ect) when you have a primary martial arts style (such as Tae Kwon Do, Ninjutsu, Muay Thai, ect)?
If so, how, when, and why? What makes cross-training useful?


I personally assume (from what i've heard) that you should only cross-train once you have your primary fighting style down and have reached at least 1st Dan.
From what I gather, cross-training should only be applied when your specific style or art lacks a certain thing (such as Muay Thai with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu).

Can you take moves from one style and mix it with your own primary style?


Why or why not?



All comments are appreciated!


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## Tensei85 (Dec 25, 2009)

Hey AriesKai,

My opinion being a product of massive cross training (5-6 different styles at the same time for 5+ years doing that) is don't do it... let just say I'm less than impressed with the results of trying to juggle so many different systems at 1 time & even now like 8 years later I retained maybe 10% on a good day, on the plus side I learned a lot about different systems, different philosophies, different logics but what difference does it make if I can't remember most or any of the training. 

So for now I still mix it up a bit but in a less chaotic time frame, I only train 2 systems & concentrate on 1, the other is more a hobby than anything. 

So if you really want to cross train I would recommend a solid MMA school, that way you only have to deal with the teaching philosophy & methods of 1 Instructor(dedicate your time & effort to just that) as opposed to trying to juggle other systems from other Instructors at the same time. Because then you have different formulas for how they do things, different philosophies, different training devices, etc...

The problem I had with cross training was that when you are trying to understand the mechanics involved at the same time trying to understand the mechanics of other systems it becomes counter productive because not all systems in fact most systems are different in nature than others. That is a fact that has to be understood before continuing down that road. 

And think of it this way "how can I put 100% into something when I'm doing something else"? 

If you have 1 system than you can dedicate 100%, 2 than 50%, 3 than etc... of course those are just rough estimates but the point is to really excell in something you have to put in 110% that is why I advocate against massive crosstraining.

It's cool if you just want to understand & put into your arsenal the 4 ranges kicking, striking, throwing, grappling. (I'm in the same boat!)

But if your trying to go to a system just to get 1 of those tools its really not worth your time because there is a lot that goes into the system even beforehand in understanding the basic mechanics, concepts, principles etc... its like trying to get the answer to the equation without even understanding the formula. 

Have a good Christmas!


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 25, 2009)

I think cross-training is not only a good idea, but imperative for a serious martial artist.

However, one should not take that as dabbling a little bit in this, a little bit in that, and hoping that somehow a cohesive and useful art or defense system will emerge from that.  _"Jack of all trades, Master of none"_ is the operative phrase here, I believe.

I intend to do some training in Judo at some point in the near future, to complement my primary training, which is Isshin-Ryu karate.  I am aware of several gaps in my abilities, including flexibility, the ability to fall correctly, and knowledge of any sort of a ground game.  However, I do NOT believe I could train in both at the same time and gain mastery of both.  I will learn Judo when and as I can, and I believe it will help me with my Isshin-Ryu, which will remain my primary art.  I have no desire nor any need to impress others with my list of mad skillz on my profile; I train for myself and I am what I appear to be.


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## Omar B (Dec 25, 2009)

You've got a whole lot of questions in the past few days.  One would assume with a stellar MA resume like your own you posted in one of the previous threads you would know this answer already.


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## Tensei85 (Dec 25, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think cross-training is not only a good idea, but imperative for a serious martial artist.
> 
> However, one should not take that as dabbling a little bit in this, a little bit in that, and hoping that somehow a cohesive and useful art or defense system will emerge from that. _"Jack of all trades, Master of none"_ is the operative phrase here, I believe.
> 
> I intend to do some training in Judo at some point in the near future, to complement my primary training, which is Isshin-Ryu karate. I am aware of several gaps in my abilities, including flexibility, the ability to fall correctly, and knowledge of any sort of a ground game. However, I do NOT believe I could train in both at the same time and gain mastery of both. I will learn Judo when and as I can, and I believe it will help me with my Isshin-Ryu, which will remain my primary art. I have no desire nor any need to impress others with my list of mad skillz on my profile; I train for myself and I am what I appear to be.


 
Nice post! I believe Cross training is beneficial, but my post above was more directed to massive cross training(for lack of better wording) haha not cross training period, hopefully the post didn't come across as so. 

I agree a ground game is imperative as well, thanks for bringing that to light...


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## Tez3 (Dec 25, 2009)

I don't need training to be cross, I'm naturally talented. :ultracool


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## AriesKai (Dec 25, 2009)

Omar B said:


> You've got a whole lot of questions in the past few days.  One would assume with a stellar MA resume like your own you posted in one of the previous threads you would know this answer already.




Why do you think that my "MA resume" is "stellar"?
I don't think there's anything special about it at all.
What i've done in training in so many different styles, is confused myself and have lost grasp of my origional and traditional style.

Try to be less hasteful with me. Even with my "16 years of experience in the Martial Arts", I am no where near where I should be.
I've been a very confused individual, which is why I came here to seek advice; not ridicule and/or disrespect from _anyone_.
I came here looking for some light, and i've found it.
Now i'm asking for more advice, as I should be.

There's nothing wrong with that, Omar.


Thanks 



With Respect,

Aries Kai


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## AriesKai (Dec 25, 2009)

So basically, the conclusion or answer to this question is:


_Train in a specific/traditional style/art first, get proficient at it (or master it), then worry about cross-training?

_
I think I am finally beginning to understand everything...

Dear, God, have I been more than just confused. I have been utterly ignorant.


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## Tez3 (Dec 25, 2009)

Well....actually no. I would suggest if you plan to train in similiar styles such as TKD and karate you should learn one thoroughly first. It's hard to separate similiar styles when you are a lower grade. However even at a lower grade there isn't anything to confuse you if you take on two very different styles such as MT/karate and Judo/BJJ.

The first thing to do is find an instructor you respect, like and can enjoy training with, the person who can help you find the right questions to ask and where to find the answers.


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## seasoned (Dec 25, 2009)

This is the age old question, and thankfully it was answer long ago. If it is a striking and kicking art, it has grappling, if it is a grappling art, it has strikes. The question is, are you being taught what is within your art. Masters of old, all cross trained, but they did it to supplement their art, and fill in the gaps. Any art, to be worthy for battle, needs to function at leg length, arm length, and in a grab situation. If a good grappler gets past your legs, he would need to slip or redirect your hands to fulfill his take down. Once he crowds your legs and grabs for the take down, it would help if he could inadvertently hit your head or neck on his way in for the grab. On the same note once you are grabbed, and they are good, prepare to go down. Time is of the essence for survival, and you have a few seconds before it is ground time. How you hit the ground and what you can hit him with on the way down, is paramount. I would say 2 arts would be one to many, but a main art with a working knowledge of hitting or a main art and a working knowledge of throws and take downs would be very beneficial.


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## Tez3 (Dec 25, 2009)

seasoned said:


> This is the age old question, and thankfully it was answer long ago. If it is a striking and kicking art, it has grappling, if it is a grappling art, it has strikes. The question is, are you being taught what is within your art. Masters of old, all cross trained, but they did it to supplement their art, and fill in the gaps. Any art, to be worthy for battle, needs to function at leg length, arm length, and in a grab situation. If a good grappler gets past your legs, he would need to slip or redirect your hands to fulfill his take down. Once he crowds your legs and grabs for the take down, it would help if he could inadvertently hit your head or neck on his way in for the grab. On the same note once you are grabbed, and they are good, prepare to go down. Time is of the essence for survival, and you have a few seconds before it is ground time. How you hit the ground and what you can hit him with on the way down, is paramount. I would say 2 arts would be one to many, but a main art with a working knowledge of hitting or a main art and a working knowledge of throws and take downs would be very beneficial.


 

Like this? A mate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upJHpM50hqY&feature=related


"_Dan The Outlaw Hardy started training at the age of six in Taekwondo. He progressed through to black belt and then started training in different styles. He began to cross-train in several styles of martial arts after the realizing the importance of grappling skills in MMA. Since then he has held the Cage Warriors Welterweight World Title and is the current Light-Welterweight Champion and also the UK Storm British Champion. He has fought professionally in America, Europe and Japan._
_Hardy signed a contract with the UFC in 2008. Shortly after, he made his UFC debut at UFC 89, defeating Akihiro Gono via Split Decision. He then went on to beat Rory Markham at UFC 95 in the first round by KO with a clean counter left hook. His split decision win over Marcus Davis at UFC 99 gave this rising star what he needed to start breaking through the Top 10 fighters in the welterweight division_."


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## xfighter88 (Dec 26, 2009)

AriesKai said:


> So basically, the conclusion or answer to this question is:
> 
> 
> _Train in a specific/traditional style/art first, get proficient at it (or master it), then worry about cross-training?_
> ...


 
another thought...if you have had experience in a good number of martial arts then you should feel more "at home" with certain aspects. Say you like striking for example. Then you should make a striking art your main focus. You can then round out your skills by taking judo, BJJ, or wrestleing. That way you know enough to get out of bad spots on the ground so that you can stand up and kick/punch again. And heck, if you end up getting a submission or throw then you do that too. 

I think of Chuck Liddell in his hayday. He is an amazing striker and focused on that. He also knew enough Wrestling to get out of tight spots on the ground and stuff takedowns. That is how he stayed on his feet.

P.S. not sure why I quoted that post. sorry.


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## MJS (Dec 26, 2009)

AriesKai said:


> I feel that this is a question that could be answered for martial artists of all levels, especially for the noobs:
> 
> 
> Should you cross-train into multiple different styles (such as BJJ, San Shou, ect) when you have a primary martial arts style (such as Tae Kwon Do, Ninjutsu, Muay Thai, ect)?
> ...


 
My suggestions:

1) Have a base art first.  

2) Spend enough time in that art until you're at least Brown belt level.

3) Pick something that will blend with what you're already doing.  Ex: If you're doing TKD, pick something other than another stand up style.  I do Kenpo, added in BJJ and then Arnis.  For me, thats more than enough.  With the exception of BJJ, which I plan on resuming classes next year, I actively train in both Kenpo and Arnis.  

4) Dont try to learn 30 different arts all at once.  It'll never happen.

5) Can I take moves from one and mix them with another?  Yes, and I do it all the time.  Keep in mind, that I'm not creating a new style by doing this.  I'm simply just going with what feels natural.  Sometimes when I finish a Kenpo tech., I'm in a great spot for a lock from Arnis, so I do it. 

6) Training only when your stlye lacks something:  If we think about it, everything could not necessarily lack something, but could use further expansion.  For example...Kenpo has some great weapon disarms, however I use my Arnis training to give me a better understanding on the use of weapons, how others can use them, etc. and incorporate that into my Kenpo.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 27, 2009)

AriesKai said:


> I feel that this is a question that could be answered for martial artists of all levels, especially for the noobs:
> 
> 
> Should you cross-train into multiple different styles (such as BJJ, San Shou, ect) when you have a primary martial arts style (such as Tae Kwon Do, Ninjutsu, Muay Thai, ect)?
> ...


 
Absolutely you can cross train!  I think you should, if you're interested in developing what works best for you.

Sticking to one style is picking techniques that have worked best for someone else, which may not be the best entire fit for you........how do you know what works best for you if you don't explore?


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## l_uk3y (Dec 27, 2009)

Firstly. What are you training for?

Competition purposes require you too look at the sport and work out what skill you need to win.  (of course these are basic examples and not necessarily the only way to do it.
- MMA would typically benefit from BJJ, wrestling and stand up based around Boxing and Muay Thai. (among many others)
- Muay Thai would benefit obviously with Muay Thai as the main system but boxing training would be handy to improve hand skills. Also as a strange alternative something like Judo may help a Thai boxer gain a few extra ideas whilst in the grapple.

For self defense purposes I believe you need a good solid stand up system but cross training as a backup in a weapons system (for understanding and defense purposes) as well as a ground system. If you have a hole in your training then something may slip through.

One thing i don't believe in personally though is cross training styles that cover the same thing but using different stances and mechanics. I do however believe highly in cross training with a focus on adding what you don't have. 
i.e Why learn literally 50 diff kicks and 20 diff punches/elbow strikes and 50 diff blocks. The time taken to learning each one to a high level by the time you get your head around the different styles will be ages. esp considering you will probably pick no more then 5 of each that you truly call your favorites. Your an awesome kicker, puncher and you have 10 different blocks to cover every attack and angle possible. What happens if you pick the wrong one at the wrong time and all of a sudden your out of your zone.  ut oh.

That same time could have very well earnt
5 or so very effective kicks.
5 or so effective hand strikes + elbows
mixture of throws, locks and breaks.
solid ground game inc defense to avoid going down.
Good understanding of different weapon attacks and defenses.
This person 9 times out of 10 will figure out person A and exploit their weaknesses and walk away without to many issues.

At the end of the day if your talking pure effectiveness you only need to cover the techniques that you will actually find beneficial, but of course no one system covers them all hence the need for some form of cross training.
(Note.  My opinion only  )

Sorry for long post.
Cheers
Luke


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## Draven (Dec 27, 2009)

Well, keeping it simple I cross train constantly. I'm a big fan of cross training because  allot of times I find new ways to apply old techniques. Personally I don't think there is a great many techniques just different ways of applying and once you understand the principles behind it, its all the same...

It somewhat depends on what you are looking for as an end result; self-defense, sport etc. MMA & Sport Jujitsu are about the only competition where different arts have met in competition & with the MMA craze allot of Sport Jujitsu has evolved into a specific Americanized style.

As for a base art, there is no such thing. Their is a base style your personal style of fighting but focusing too much on the "art" as a system and as an expression of yourself will hold you back a lot.


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## =PSI= (Dec 28, 2009)

Depends on what you train. I encourage cross training... for starters unless you join a full time dojo it means you can train more! 

 I train Ninjutsu (bujinkan), Jiu Jitsu (modernized style not koryu jujutsu), Aikijujutsu and a small amount of Muay Thai. I have experience in Silat and JKD as well.

 My theory is that all these arts... JJ, NJ, AJJ should all gel as they follow similar principles. They are from the same origins and are clearly linked in terms of techniques. So for me it works.

 I do still have problems in that I come from a striking background and moving into close range I still find myself feeling slightly weak.. especially if I'm turning my back. However JJ and AJJ have very few stances and exact footings so I can use my NJ stuff, including kamae in the classes and not be hollered at, in fact people wonder where it comes from! I love jumonji no kamae (firey feeling) for example, so I use it a lot.

 I move very differently to other people in my classes because of the dancelike nature of silat and to a certain extent JKD though, I do occasionally find myself less solidly grounded than others. I'm much more jumpy.

 In my mind crosstraining is great if you choose the arts carefully. Dont take tai chi and muay thai and expect them to gel for example!

 My own experience is that atm I feel I have much much much to learn but when it all comes together I know... I just know I'll be able to express something beautiful.


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## khand50 (Dec 28, 2009)

in the early eighties i was approached by a fellow who asked me to teach him martial arts.  he saw me practicing in my yard one afternoon and stopped by the next day.  when i finally agreed to do it after some pestering from him i realized that i wasnt sure what i was going to teach.  
up to that point,  i had been training in martial arts for about twelve years. at that time, i had training in tae kwon do, judo, wrestling, shorei ryu karate, and hapkido,  with a strong influence from bruce lee's jkd and some influence from kali, plus the over three hundred books and over three hundred magazines i had collected, read, and studied from. my new student asked me what style i was doing.  i didnt feel loyalty to any one system or aspect of fighting. in other words,  i couldnt say that i was going to teach him tae kwon do,  since i added throwing and grappling and weapons.  and i couldnt say i was teaching him judo or wrestling, since i added kicking, punching, and weapons.  from these thoughts i started a study of just what comprised a system.  i cross referenced information from several hundred books on varying styles and came up with a workable base that was generic to as complete a training program as i could create.  
no matter what style you study,  you can use this information to determine your fighting ranges and create your own list of tools (techniques)  for your personal arsenal.  here is some of what i came up with.  i call it the structural analysis of the martial arts..here is my list...
1-two phases of combat-armed, unarmed
2-three attitudes of combat-offensive,defensive,neutral
3-attributes-personal skills such as timing, speed,flexibility, etc..that you bring into the combative situation.
4-ranges of fighting-long range(kicking),medium or middle range(kicking and punching), close range(hitting with knees, elbows, trapping,and transitioning from standing to ground fighting).also, my personal feeling is that if you are on the ground, you can still use the three ranges.  if a person attacks you, you can kick them.  if they move in closer, you can hit them,  and so on. that is why i dont classify ground fighting as its own range. i see it as a transition.
5-body divisions-high, middle, low lines,  inside, outside lines, forward, rear, center lines.
6-elements of training-solo drills, partner drills, conditioning drills, sparring drills,environmental awareness drills.
7-list of tools-stance,posture, body position, mobility, footwork, evasion, offensive hands, defensive hands, offensive legs, defensive legs,joint/anti-joint( lock-break-throw), choke/strangle, balance disruption(throws, sweeps, takedowns),grappling, pinning, miscellaneous controlling(dirty fighting tactics, hair pull, bite, gouge, etc.)
the transition back and forth between fighting ranges will determine which tools you will use in combat.  if you prefer to stay outside of the opponent's reach then the long range tools will be of use to you.  in all, you should be able to transition between each range when needed.  you may find yourself in close range some time and need to defend yourself with trapping and hitting there.  
rather than necessarily going out and studying all the different styles, (unless you want to do that) use my list to determine what you know already.  that is what i did after i created the list.  what techniques do you know now?  are you a kicker in need of close range fighting skills?  are you a grappler in need of long range kicking?  use the ranges to determine where you feel most comfortable and then make a list of all the techniques you know.  put them under the appropriate heading under the list of tools and see what you primarily use for fighting.   
studying a variety of martial arts can be fun but it isnt really necessary per se if you are trying to round out your abilities as a martial artist. there are many books and videos available on the market which can help you learn about the various phases of combat and expose you to a great variety of techniques and ideas.  you can get a training partner to help you work out the differences by experimentation.  of course,  as suggested earlier,  i would say you would stand a better chance of doing this after training for some time.  it is more difficult to accomplish without at least a year or two of training in at least one system.  it depends upon the system too.  some are very slow about what they teach and how they teach it.  and many can be limiting on what they teach.  if you can find an instructor who is open minded that is the best way to go.  he might be likely to help you experiment.  
when i teach i tell the students to be aware that they are going to be participating in an ongoing experiment called self exploration.  they need to find their way of fighting.  like bruce lee said,  i merely want to be a guide,  a finger pointing to the moon.  i like to help others find the way that fits them, not me.  once you understand the basics of the martial arts as a whole,  you can go in and put further study into individual aspects.  the list i put here is a general list of what a more complete martial artist should know, as far as having a sense of the ranges of fighting and the tools that he can use in those ranges.  i hope it helps.  thanks for reading.


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## MJS (Dec 28, 2009)

Draven said:


> As for a base art, there is no such thing. Their is a base style your personal style of fighting but focusing too much on the "art" as a system and as an expression of yourself will hold you back a lot.


 
I look at a base, as something to build from.  For example...it may be difficult for a complete newbie to the arts, to take on more than one art at the same time.  Seeing that this would be something very new to them, I would think that it could be easy to be confused.

Now, I've had some people compare more than 1 art to taking more than 1 class in high school or college.  So, the math, English and science class, could be compared to 3 different martial arts.  So while each of those classes starts off with the basics, before moving onto advanced levels, how many times have we seen people struggle because they're overwhelmed?

Just playing devils advocate for a bit.


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## MattJ (Dec 29, 2009)

I think Tensei and Bill Mattocks hit it spot on. I am a firm believer in cross-training, but I personally like to do one thing at a time. If someone is looking for cohesively integrated multiple disciplines, look at an MMA school.


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## khand50 (Dec 29, 2009)

im not sure i really gave the response to this post i wanted to after re-reading mine.  the real question i would have to ask is,  why are you wanting to cross train?  if you feel that you lack in an area of fighting or self defense,  then you need to seek out that which will fill that void.  what i wrote in my response earlier was a sort of map as to how i filled that void.  
i was a good long range fighter,  my legs were my best asset. i was ok at grappling and balance disruption because of my judo and wrestling.  but, i realized along the way that someone could break through the long range so i had to learn hand techniques that would be beneficial for me to use.  after some research into wing chun, western boxing, and kali,  i found a way to develop my hands so that they were compatible with my kicks.  yes,  i have been studying jkd for many years and that is what has helped me to be more complete as a martial artist.  but i started my research long before i ever got to train with a jkd instructor.  it was from books and magazines that i gained the knowledge i searched for.  and it was from teaching and training with my friends that i gained the experience i needed in the various ranges.
most schools didnt teach all the ranges of fighting when i was studying years ago.  some schools are still very limited, especially in small towns like where i live now.   we still have karate and tae kwon do schools here who only teach in their traditional manner.  im not knocking those schools because i know the instructors and they are nice people.  just the fact that the style itself hasnt grown to meet the demands of an ever changing society.  
there (thankfully) isnt a law against you working out with your friends outside of class to develop your skills in other ranges of fighting not necessarily offered in your class.  sometimes instructors wont let you cross train and they often look down on you learning other arts or applications.  ive been in too many of those kinds of classes over the years.  not that it ever stopped me...
going to other schools really helps because you get people who know the art,  and you get to train against live opponents who are more skilled than you are at that application.  if you do cross train i feel that you should try to find the school that offers skills which will enhance your knowledge of each range.  going to a tae kwon do school and then cross training into a karate school would not be as fruitful as going from a tae kwon do school into a bjj type school,  then studying boxing,  or maybe kali.  kali and the other filipino arts are pretty complete in themselves as they offer skills in all the ranges of fighting,  depending upon the instructor.  not all kali instructors teach the entire range of the art.  dumog is the grappling phase of kali and is probably the least seldom taught art in the filipino styles,  from what i have seen.  
good luck with your search and research.  have a great day!


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