# Fencing stance



## likewater* (Mar 25, 2017)

What is the Japanese or Chinese name for the strong side forward stance?  I heard it on Sifu Hajnasr's YouTube video.  It's like guygin or something.  Not the word for outsider.


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 25, 2017)

I doubt you'll find the western fencing stance in Japanese or Chinese traditional Martial Arts (or at least I haven't come across it yet). It is something very specific to western fencing. There are a couple of stances that have similar foot placement such as the Japanese "Renoji-dachi" and the Chinese "Qi Xing Bu" but even then, we don't go fully side-ways on during these stances. At most you are at a 45 degree angle.


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## likewater* (Mar 25, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I doubt you'll find the western fencing stance in Japanese or Chinese traditional Martial Arts (or at least I haven't come across it yet). It is something very specific to western fencing. There are a couple of stances that have similar foot placement such as the Japanese "Renoji-dachi" and the Chinese "Qi Xing Bu" but even then, we don't go fully side-ways on during these stances. At most you are at a 45 degree angle.


The dachi stance is the closest one I could find. Did you hear what the Sifu called it?


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## likewater* (Mar 25, 2017)

I guess it's called southpaw.  Which doesn't make sense.  Because, southpaw is still weak side forward.  Whatever from Green belt Tang Soo Do



Midnight-shadow said:


> I doubt you'll find the western fencing stance in Japanese or Chinese traditional Martial Arts (or at least I haven't come across it yet). It is something very specific to western fencing. There are a couple of stances that have similar foot placement such as the Japanese "Renoji-dachi" and the Chinese "Qi Xing Bu" but even then, we don't go fully side-ways on during these stances. At most you are at a 45 degree angle.





Midnight-shadow said:


> I doubt you'll find the western fencing stance in Japanese or Chinese traditional Martial Arts (or at least I haven't come across it yet). It is something very specific to western fencing. There are a couple of stances that have similar foot placement such as the Japanese "Renoji-dachi" and the Chinese "Qi Xing Bu" but even then, we don't go fully side-ways on during these stances. At most you are at a 45 degree angle.


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 25, 2017)

likewater* said:


> I guess it's called southpaw.  Which doesn't make sense.  Because, southpaw is still weak side forward.  Whatever from Green belt Tang Soo Do









Do you mean this stance? They apparently call it "Bai Jong" and although it was inspired by fencing, you'll notice that he is still not fully side-ways on:


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## likewater* (Mar 25, 2017)

YES! 'Thank you so much. "Bai Jong" Awesome.  "What are you" (interviewer) 
"I am a human being." - Bruce Lee 


Midnight-shadow said:


> Do you mean this stance? They apparently call it "Bai Jong" and although it was inspired by fencing, you'll notice that he is still not fully side-ways on:


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 26, 2017)

likewater* said:


> What is the Japanese or Chinese name for the strong side forward stance?  I heard it on Sifu Hajnasr's YouTube video.  It's like guygin or something.  Not the word for outsider.


Just as a quick clarification, while he was in a strong side forward stance, I did not see anything resembling a fencing stance. Also, as a fencer and martial artist, I would not recommend at all that someone fights from a fencing stance (or something similar). Specific concepts translate, especially the retreat, but they need to be adapted for more than two dimensions. From what I understand, when Bruce Lee took footwork from fencing, he still adapted it, focusing on the speed of lunge/retreat, rather than the fencing stance itself.

I realize this does not answer your question at all, and I don't know the answer, I just wanted to make that point clear.


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## likewater* (Mar 26, 2017)

Technically maybe, but fencing uses the strong side forward and his footwork shows it.  We know he self-learned that strong side forward is more efficient and fencing is a great way to learn.  You did not see anything resembling a fencing stance?



kempodisciple said:


> Just as a quick clarification, while he was in a strong side forward stance, I did not see anything resembling a fencing stance. Also, as a fencer and martial artist, I would not recommend at all that someone fights from a fencing stance (or something similar). Specific concepts translate, especially the retreat, but they need to be adapted for more than two dimensions. From what I understand, when Bruce Lee took footwork from fencing, he still adapted it, focusing on the speed of lunge/retreat, rather than the fencing stance itself.
> 
> I realize this does not answer your question at all, and I don't know the answer, I just wanted to make that point clear.


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 26, 2017)

likewater* said:


> Technically maybe, but fencing uses the strong side forward and his footwork shows it.  We know he self-learned that strong side forward is more efficient and fencing is a great way to learn.  You did not see anything resembling a fencing stance?



So here's the thing about the fencing stance and why it exists. In Epee and Foil fencing (the 2 most common disciplines) you can only score points with the tip of the blade, and if you try and curve the sword around to strike your opponent's exposed back you leave your centre wide open, usually resulting in you losing the point. The other thing is that in sport fencing you aren't allowed to change sword hands, meaning you will only ever attack with the forward arm holding the sword. The rear arm does nothing and is held out of the way. 
If you tried to do a full side-ways stance during a normal fight, you wouldn't be able to use your rear arm because it would be too far to reach without turning your body fully (which is very slow and easily predicted). Also in a normal fight a full side-ways stance would leave your back completely exposed to as many round-house kicks as your opponent can dish out. Really, the only situation I can think of for using the side-ways fencing stance outside of fencing would be for Olympic taekwondo, because you aren't allowed to hit someone in the back. 

The stance Bruce Lee uses (as shown above) uses similar footwork to fencing but he twists his body so that it is as a 45 degree angle rather than fully sideways on. This allows him to utilise the fast forwards and backwards movements you see in fencing while still being able to use both his arms to attack and defend.


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## likewater* (Mar 26, 2017)

I totally understand the JKD stance.  Strong side forward, at a 45 degree open.  Strong arm loosely forward(good for setting up a gate), back arm protecting, also footwork from boxing, wing chun, and fencing = water.  I'm getting stuck on the technical, must flow.


Midnight-shadow said:


> So here's the thing about the fencing stance and why it exists. In Epee and Foil fencing (the 2 most common disciplines) you can only score points with the tip of the blade, and if you try and curve the sword around to strike your opponent's exposed back you leave your centre wide open, usually resulting in you losing the point. The other thing is that in sport fencing you aren't allowed to change sword hands, meaning you will only ever attack with the forward arm holding the sword. The rear arm does nothing and is held out of the way.
> If you tried to do a full side-ways stance during a normal fight, you wouldn't be able to use your rear arm because it would be too far to reach without turning your body fully (which is very slow and easily predicted). Also in a normal fight a full side-ways stance would leave your back completely exposed to as many round-house kicks as your opponent can dish out. Really, the only situation I can think of for using the side-ways fencing stance outside of fencing would be for Olympic taekwondo, because you aren't allowed to hit someone in the back.
> 
> The stance Bruce Lee uses (as shown above) uses similar footwork to fencing but he twists his body so that it is as a 45 degree angle rather than fully sideways on. This allows him to utilise the fast forwards and backwards movements you see in fencing while still being able to use both his arms to attack and defend.


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## Danny T (Mar 27, 2017)

likewater* said:


> What is the Japanese or Chinese name for the strong side forward stance?





Midnight-shadow said:


> They apparently call it "Bai Jong" and although it was inspired by fencing, you'll notice that he is still not fully side-ways on:


Bai Jong means 'fighting stance'. There are many types of bai jong. It doesn't mean 'strong side forward stance'.
The bai jong Bruce Lee used had his strong side was forward.


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Mar 29, 2017)

Bai jong is the term that is used.      It sometimes is translated as Fighting Stance.   Or ready Stance.   
Bai Jong doesn't have anything to do with Strong side forward.   In chinese it's simply fighting/ready stance...
Bruce took concepts from Fencing.   Power side forward.  The weapon closest to your opponent in the lead.   It takes less time to get there.    Also ideas of non telegraphing...    Look at a good fencer.   Their hand moves slightly before their body.     But you will notice that in fencing that their rear foot is usually 90 degrees to their centerline etc.   Bruce wasn't this way.   Little different and of course the hand position.  The upper body is at a 45 degree...  
Remember in traditional fencing to the death... they had a short sword.. in their rear hand.   That was usually used to parry.   Just like in JKD.  Lead hand usually hits... rear hand deflects.


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## Thunder Foot (Apr 26, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Do you mean this stance? They apparently call it "Bai Jong" and although it was inspired by fencing, you'll notice that he is still not fully side-ways on:



This particular stance isn't bai jong. It's a transitional stance and the reason why if we look closely, we hardly see Bruce or his students ever use this posture.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (May 2, 2017)

Bai Jong or Bi-jong is what Bruce Lee refered to as the "small phasic bent-knee stance" or JKD "on-guard position," from what I understand. It combines elements from Wing Chun, Western Boxing and Western Fencing if you want to get technical. The strong-side forward comes from fencing. JKD's lead jab comes from fencing. The spring-leg forward posture and raised rear heel comes from boxing. The elbows in and centerline focus comes from wingchun. It is actually obvious just by looking at Bai Jong from both a front and side view. The very concept of "intercepting" (Jeet) comes from fencing elements in Jeet Kune Do, and all stances are transitional in Bruce Lee's eyes. Sometimes he did stand in more of a sideways fencing stance, but that was transitional as well, and even then we see Bruce Lee's guard. He never strays from the centerline, and he always sinks his body in like a wingchun warrior. And I heard on a documentary once (I think it was Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey) that Bruce Lee was the youngest Wing Chun master to emerge from Grandmaster Yip Man's school. This documentary had Linda Lee Cadwell, Dan Inosanto, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and many other credible JKD experts giving interviews. It seemed quite legit to me, seeing as Bruce Lee started teaching Wing Chun to students in Seattle in 1959, as soon as he came to the states. This would've been too early for him to have mastered Wing Chun under Fook Yeung, but that doesn't mean he wasn't Fook Yeung's student (in Hung Suen Wing Chun) in 1959.


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