# Chinese Spear and WC's pole



## wckf92 (Apr 2, 2017)

Hey all.
Was wondering what (if any) correlations there may be between spear vs long pole?
Would learning/studying/dissecting various Chinese spear forms, methods, techniques, concepts help one to understand more about WC's pole methods?
Thoughts?


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## LFJ (Apr 2, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Would learning/studying/dissecting various Chinese spear forms, methods, techniques, concepts help one to understand more about WC's pole methods?



I've done so, and not really, because while the relation to spear basics is immediately obvious, spear is so much more dense in material that is only applicable to that weapon, and not at all to the pole. It would be a waste of time to learn all that if not interested. So if you want to study spear, you'd do it for its own sake, if it interests you. VT pole is pretty barebones in comparison. Not a whole lot to understand from spear, anyway.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 2, 2017)

I cannot comment on wing chun, but in other systems there is staff material that was clearly an adaptation from spear.  So room for crossover exists, they are closely related.


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## wckf92 (Apr 2, 2017)

LFJ said:


> I've done so, and not really, because while the relation to spear basics is immediately obvious, spear is so much more dense in material that is only applicable to that weapon, and not at all to the pole. It would be a waste of time to learn all that if not interested. So if you want to study spear, you'd do it for its own sake, if it interests you. VT pole is pretty barebones in comparison. Not a whole lot to understand from spear, anyway.



Thx.
What about to just find the names of the movements so I could do further research? Do you see any value in that?


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## LFJ (Apr 2, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Thx.
> What about to just find the names of the movements so I could do further research? Do you see any value in that?



You mean the names of the spear actions that correspond to pole actions you have?


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## wckf92 (Apr 2, 2017)

LFJ said:


> You mean the names of the spear actions that correspond to pole actions you have?



Yes


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## LFJ (Apr 2, 2017)

Well, for starters, the main spear actions (in Mandarin) "_lan_, _na_, _zha_" (拦拿扎 to intercept, seize, and thrust) correspond to the long pole actions in our line called (in Cantonese) "_lau-seui_, _kam-gwan_, _fong-lung-cheung_" (stirring water, covering pole, releasing dragon spear).


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## wckf92 (Apr 2, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Well, for starters, the main spear actions (in Mandarin) "_lan_, _na_, _zha_" (拦拿扎 to intercept, seize, and thrust) correspond to the long pole actions in our line called (in Cantonese) "_lau-seui_, _kam-gwan_, _fong-lung-cheung_" (stirring water, covering pole, releasing dragon spear).



Cool. Thx dude.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 2, 2017)

LFJ said:


> I've done so, and not really, because while the relation to spear basics is immediately obvious, spear is so much more dense in material that is only applicable to that weapon, and not at all to the pole. It would be a waste of time to learn all that if not interested. So if you want to study spear, you'd do it for its own sake, if it interests you. VT pole is pretty barebones in comparison. Not a whole lot to understand from spear, anyway.


That makes sense. Did having WC pole training help in learning spear basics?


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## LFJ (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That makes sense. Did having WC pole training help in learning spear basics?



I learned spear and other staff and long weapon methods long before VT pole, which made learning the pole about the simplest thing ever.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

LFJ said:


> I learned spear and other staff and long weapon methods long before VT pole, which made learning the pole about the simplest thing ever.


That makes sense. Would be like a student of mine who has several years of Shotokan Karate (the basis of most of our striking). Learning our strikes was a simple matter for him.

Do you know anyone who went in the other direction (WC pole to spear), by any chance?


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## LFJ (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Do you know anyone who went in the other direction (WC pole to spear), by any chance?



No, I do not.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

LFJ said:


> No, I do not.


Ah, well. Thanks for sharing your experience, LFJ!


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## Eric_H (Apr 3, 2017)

I've heard it from my teacher that HFY's long pole contains 13 spear methods. That said, haven't ever seen it. If I ever make it to that, and wutang four sided spear, I think it would be fun to do a comparison.


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## LFJ (Apr 4, 2017)

Eric_H said:


> I've heard it from my teacher that HFY's long pole contains 13 spear methods.



Most styles that use the spear have one called "13 spear", including Shaolin, CLF, various Taiji families, etc..

Just search "十三枪" on Youtube and you will find many.

This one is from Yang Style Taijiquan.

The 13 individual actions are shown and named from 2:20.

The 11th, 12th, and 13th that go together (at 4:08) are "_lan_, _na_, _zha_" I mentioned earlier that correspond to our main pole actions.






Hung Kyun also has a "13 spear pole".


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## wckf92 (Apr 4, 2017)

@LFJ 
In your studies of CMA long weapons, staffs, spear etc...do they subscribe to the WC saying 'the pole does not make two sounds'? (Or however that saying goes)


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## LFJ (Apr 4, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> @LFJ
> In your studies of CMA long weapons, staffs, spear etc...do they subscribe to the WC saying 'the pole does not make two sounds'? (Or however that saying goes)



I've only ever heard that saying within WC.

It's really the defining trait of the VT pole, being a very simple, direct, and efficient method, much more so than any other spear or staff method I've come across.

Others have various blocks, sweeps, and different kinds of non-lethal attacks.
VT pole is just to displace and deliver a decisive blow.


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## wckf92 (Apr 4, 2017)

LFJ said:


> I've only ever heard that saying within WC.
> 
> It's really the defining trait of the VT pole, being a very simple, direct, and efficient method, much more so than any other spear or staff method I've come across.
> 
> ...



So earlier when you mentioned lan, na, zha...

The lan is your stirring water? (Is this when the tip is lowered? Like doing a bong sau with the pole?)

The na is your covering pole? (Is this that small huen/ circling motion where you crack downwards on the opponents pole? In an attempt to redirect, dislodge or to clear a path for the zha?)

The zha is your releasing Dragon spear? (Like a punch or a Biu ?)


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## LFJ (Apr 4, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> So earlier when you mentioned lan, na, zha...
> 
> The lan is your stirring water? (Is this when the tip is lowered? Like doing a bong sau with the pole?)
> 
> ...



Yes. It relies more on speed than power needed with a more solid pole. 

The spear is usually much lighter and more flexible, so there is a bit more finesse that can be used with it and the actions can be made as large or small as needed. 

You can also come down on their lead hand to slice before stabbing. Pole is just a heavier version that uses more body power for displacement and blasting in with the strike.


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## wckf92 (Apr 4, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Yes. It relies more on speed than power needed with a more solid pole.
> 
> The spear is usually much lighter and more flexible, so there is a bit more finesse that can be used with it and the actions can be made as large or small as needed.
> 
> You can also come down on their lead hand to slice before stabbing. Pole is just a heavier version that uses more body power for displacement and blasting in with the strike.



Understood 
So, in the latter, if his forward hand is struck, causing him to release his weapon or in essence causing him to quit etc...would you say this is compliant with 'the pole does not make two sounds '?

Oh, and thx for the info on spear. I've never even seen or held one so it's interesting to read about


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## wckf92 (Apr 4, 2017)

LFJ said:


> Yes. It relies more on speed than power needed with a more solid pole.
> 
> The spear is usually much lighter and more flexible, so there is a bit more finesse that can be used with it and the actions can be made as large or small as needed.
> 
> You can also come down on their lead hand to slice before stabbing. Pole is just a heavier version that uses more body power for displacement and blasting in with the strike.



Understood
So, in the latter, if his forward hand is struck, causing him to release his weapon or in essence causing him to quit etc...would you say this is compliant with 'the pole does not make two sounds '?

Oh, and thx for the info on spear. I've never even seen or held one so it's interesting to read about.


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## LFJ (Apr 4, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> So, in the latter, if his forward hand is struck, causing him to release his weapon or in essence causing him to quit etc...would you say this is compliant with 'the pole does not make two sounds '?



In essence, that's just saying to open the attack line and take it asap. So, if you've done that, then you've followed the one-sound principle, since a stab or pole thrust is usually a finisher but doesn't make a loud crack.



> Oh, and thx for the info on spear. I've never even seen or held one so it's interesting to read about.



They are fun. Very light and smooth handling, and the flexibility allows for some blinding speeds at the tip from a little movement at the base.


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## wckf92 (Apr 4, 2017)

LFJ said:


> In essence, that's just saying to open the attack line and take it asap. So, if you've done that, then you've followed the one-sound principle, since a stab or pole thrust is usually a finisher but doesn't make a loud crack.
> 
> 
> 
> They are fun. Very light and smooth handling, and the flexibility allows for some blinding speeds at the tip from a little movement at the base.



Ahhh. Ok. I think I see what you mean. You are saying the loud crack of pole on pole is 'the sound. Then, the thrust to the body/target is the finisher, but not necessarily counted as a beat. Maybe(?)


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## LFJ (Apr 4, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Ahhh. Ok. I think I see what you mean. You are saying the loud crack of pole on pole is 'the sound. Then, the thrust to the body/target is the finisher, but not necessarily counted as a beat. Maybe(?)



Right. One sound doesn't mean one beat, because poles don't have elbows. 
You can't usually just strike in with the pole without first opening the line.


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## wckf92 (Apr 4, 2017)

Ok. I see now. Thx for your time on this LFJ.


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