# Testing for black belt



## EagleStrike (Apr 17, 2018)

Curious everyone's input on this from your multiple styles.
When a student is being tested for black belt how do you mark their belt? I have seen people that wear brown belt then get a black belt with white markings or stripes showing testing for next level. I have also seen a black stripe through center of brown belt. What other ways?
Thanks in advance


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## Rough Rider (Apr 17, 2018)

We don't have a brown belt- our colors are white, yellow, green, blue, and red.  Somebody getting ready for black belt wears a red belt with a black stripe down the center.


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## JR 137 (Apr 17, 2018)

Seido karate...

We wear a white belt for several weeks before testing for any dan rank.  My CI tested for his 7th dan a few years ago (a little while before I started there), and he wore a white belt for a few weeks beforehand.  During that period, the person testing lines up in class as a white belt, and does the white belt etiquette stuff.  They still do all their material and attend their regular classes though.  It’s kind of a reminder of where they started from.  Everyone I’ve seen go through it really liked it.

In my previous organization, we just wore our brown belt.   Nothing different to differentiate them from others of equal rank that weren’t up for promotion yet.

All the black belts with a white stripe I’ve seen in and outside of my organizations have been junior/kids’ black belts, not a probationary thing.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 17, 2018)

All the arts that I’ve earned rank in, there is no intermediate indicator that someone is testing for a rank. You just go from whatever the previous belt was to the next one when the rank is awarded. In BJJ you take off your brown belt and put on the black belt.


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## Danny T (Apr 17, 2018)

Like Tony in the different arts I've ranked there has been no indicator that is for testing; other than being told you are testing. When awarded Black everyone in attendance claps, congratulates you and you simple start wearing it.


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## EagleStrike (Apr 17, 2018)

JR 137 In Seido Karate is that a standard since the beginnings of the system with wearing the white belt. Very unique way of handling test.


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## Headhunter (Apr 17, 2018)

We don't


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## MI_martialist (Apr 18, 2018)

Sounds like a way to charge more for a test and make profit off of belt sales or something.


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## JR 137 (Apr 18, 2018)

EagleStrike said:


> JR 137 In Seido Karate is that a standard since the beginnings of the system with wearing the white belt. Very unique way of handling test.


I’m not sure how long it’s been that way.  I’ve only been in a little over 3 years.  Nakamura started Seido going on 42 years ago.  He could’ve done that since day one or added it anywhere along the line.  It’s his way of reminding people to never lose that beginner’s mentality no matter how far along you’ve come.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 18, 2018)

We don't. The belt shows your current rank. From there, it really ought to be pretty obvious what rank you'll be testing for.


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## Buka (Apr 18, 2018)

In American karate, at least the American Karate that I know, if you pass you get the belt, if you don't pass you don't get the belt. Testing is free. If you pass, the belt is six bucks throughout the ranks, except Black Belt. I couldn't, in good conscious, even think about charging someone for Black Belt rank. I find it offensive. 

If any instructor of mine charged me for a Black Belt.....nah, impossible.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 18, 2018)

Buka said:


> In American karate, at least the American Karate that I know, if you pass you get the belt, if you don't pass you don't get the belt. Testing is free. If you pass, the belt is six bucks throughout the ranks, except Black Belt. I couldn't, in good conscious, even think about charging someone for Black Belt rank. I find it offensive.
> 
> If any instructor of mine charged me for a Black Belt.....nah, impossible.


Buka, your check just cleared, I’ll get your new belt and dan certificate in the mail to you ASAP.  It’s been good doing business with you, and I’m off now to the Ferrari dealership.

Oh wait...was that supposed to be a private message?


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## Rough Rider (Apr 18, 2018)

After reading some of the comments,  I think I misunderstood the question. The red belt with the black stripe isn't a special belt for a BB candidate; it's simply our 1st Gup belt.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## skribs (Apr 18, 2018)

The schools I've gone to have always had a standard system for their belts, and that system is used up until black belt.

As a kid, my school did the tape stripes.  So you got your white belt, and it took 4 tests to get your yellow belt, during which you got a yellow stripe around your white belt, then a 2nd, and a 3rd, and finally you got your yellow belt.  Then 3 orange stripes before orange, 3 purple stripes before purple, and so through green, blue, red, and brown.  Then you got 3 black stripes on your brown belt, and then you test for black belt.

Around the time I quit, they were transitioning to the two-tone belts, i.e. green belt, green belt with white stripe down the middle, green belt with black stripe down the middle, then blue belt.  I'm not sure how that affected their testing structure, as this is now one less green belt.  I run into one of the instructors from that school every time I go to a tournament, so I may ask her if I remember to.

The school I'm at now, the first few belts are pretty quick:  you go straight from white to yellow, straight to purple, straight to orange and green.  Then you get a green belt with a long black stripe, then blue.  At blue, there's a blue belt with a long black stripe down the middle, then a blue belt with a long black stripe down either side (technically it's a black belt with a long blue stripe, and for the first day after they receive their belt the Master ties their belt on them backwards so it looks like a black belt).  Red is the same thing, one stripe, then two stripes.  So we say Green, Green I, Blue, Blue I, Blue II, Red, Red I, Red II.  We also call Red I "senior red belt" and Red II "Junior Black Belt".  Once you're a Junior black belt, you just need time in grade, volunteer hours helping with lower belts, and to meet the testing requirements, and you can test for black belt.

Our colored belts can test every two months, and our black belts can test for intermediary (or "gup" ranks) every two months as well.  This is, of course, if they're ready.  Most people take 4 months on average, some people take 6-8 months to test.  Red belts have a minimum waiting period of 4 months.  It stretches out more as the belts get higher, especially at black belt.

For the Dan tests, you must have appropriate time.  We also only do Dan tests twice a year, outside of special circumstances (i.e. a private test for someone who is moving and won't be able to take the test with everyone else).


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## skribs (Apr 18, 2018)

Buka said:


> In American karate, at least the American Karate that I know, if you pass you get the belt, if you don't pass you don't get the belt. Testing is free. If you pass, the belt is six bucks throughout the ranks, except Black Belt. I couldn't, in good conscious, even think about charging someone for Black Belt rank. I find it offensive.
> 
> If any instructor of mine charged me for a Black Belt.....nah, impossible.



I think part of it is that there are going to be costs to the student regardless.  For example, I'm sure if my Master didn't charge for tests, then he'd simply raise his monthly tuition from $90 to $115 to make up the cost.  This is assuming a 4 year average to get your black belt, and the ~$1300 worth of testing fees over 4 years would raise tuition by about $25 a month.  (This total is not just for the black belt, but the 11 other tests you must do first).

This would make slower-paced students pay more for their belt in the long run, because if it takes 6 years, now you're paying ~$2500 more.  Faster-paced students who get their black belt in the minimum 2.5 years would pay ~$2000 less for their black belt.  

Now, I said that this is part of it.  The other part is that there are generally fees for the organization.  As we discussed in another thread, for example, the Kukkiwon certificate is over $100 just from the organization.  There's small costs like testing materials (i.e. boards to break) and other things (like your new belt, your new uniform, etc).  I'm pretty sure that if you took the $600 cost of the black belt test, my Master is probably only making $200-300 on the Dan test.  While the $600 fee is a lot higher than the $40-60 that you pay for keub ranks, when you look at what the actual test costs, it's a lot closer.  Still a lot more expensive, but a lot closer.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 18, 2018)

skribs said:


> I think part of it is that there are going to be costs to the student regardless. For example, I'm sure if my Master didn't charge for tests, then he'd simply raise his monthly tuition from $90 to $115 to make up the cost. This is assuming a 4 year average to get your black belt, and the ~$1300 worth of testing fees over 4 years would raise tuition by about $25 a month. (This total is not just for the black belt, but the 11 other tests you must do first).
> 
> This would make slower-paced students pay more for their belt in the long run, because if it takes 6 years, now you're paying ~$2500 more. Faster-paced students who get their black belt in the minimum 2.5 years would pay ~$2000 less for their black belt.


Here's the issue I have with this argument: I think the idea that a student is paying $x for their black belt is fundamentally misguided. You shouldn't be paying for a rank. You should be paying for the training. After 6 years of training, both the fast student and the slow student should each have paid the same amount for 6 years worth of instruction. They might have different ranks, but that's just a recognition of how much they were able to accomplish with the training.


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## skribs (Apr 18, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Here's the issue I have with this argument: I think the idea that a student is paying $x for their black belt is fundamentally misguided. You shouldn't be paying for a rank. You should be paying for the training. After 6 years of training, both the fast student and the slow student should each have paid the same amount for 6 years worth of instruction. They might have different ranks, but that's just a recognition of how much they were able to accomplish with the training.



In the end, you're paying for both, it's just how many checks you write to get there.  

As long as it's not "pay me $400 and you will guaranteed get your belt" or "pay your tuition fees and show up to class and you'll get your black belt" I don't see the problem with it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 18, 2018)

EagleStrike said:


> Curious everyone's input on this from your multiple styles.
> When a student is being tested for black belt how do you mark their belt? I have seen people that wear brown belt then get a black belt with white markings or stripes showing testing for next level. I have also seen a black stripe through center of brown belt. What other ways?
> Thanks in advance


In the NGAA (largest organization for my primary art), there's no "testing" indicator. The candidate will be a brown belt, and at some point will start testing. That testing usually takes about 3-6 months, and they simply keep wearing their brown belt during that time. I've never quite understood the utility of a visual indicator of "testing" status.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 18, 2018)

MI_martialist said:


> Sounds like a way to charge more for a test and make profit off of belt sales or something.


I suppose if there's some significant charge for the belt (I've never seen anyplace that charged significantly, except maybe for a black belt), though I can't see how it would bring more testing revenue?


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 18, 2018)

Buka said:


> In American karate, at least the American Karate that I know, if you pass you get the belt, if you don't pass you don't get the belt. Testing is free. If you pass, the belt is six bucks throughout the ranks, except Black Belt. I couldn't, in good conscious, even think about charging someone for Black Belt rank. I find it offensive.
> 
> If any instructor of mine charged me for a Black Belt.....nah, impossible.


I've never been a fan of charging more for BB. I seriously see that as backwards - the new students help fund the training of those who've been there longer, IMO.

My instructors got around the idea of charging for the BB (which I think started as a way to get better belts for BB) by simply having folks buy their own. I still use my first one - it's held up surprisingly well for the $40 I spent.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 18, 2018)

skribs said:


> In the end, you're paying for both, it's just how many checks you write to get there.
> 
> As long as it's not "pay me $400 and you will guaranteed get your belt" or "pay your tuition fees and show up to class and you'll get your black belt" I don't see the problem with it.


I don't think it's quite the same. To me, there's just something "off" about big fees around testing. I'm okay with an instructor charging a bit if they are doing some of the testing outside class time. I'm even okay with them charging a bit for the bother of it all. But when "a bit" gets into the $100's, that starts to bother me. Why should the year you are testing cost you 150-200% as much as the year before? I also think it can create a reason for students to delay and resist promotions, which starts to break down whatever meaning the ranks are meant to carry.

Mind you, it is entirely possible to charge $100's with a clean conscience, good intentions, and a good outcome. My reaction is gut-level, and not entirely logical.


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## Buka (Apr 18, 2018)

It's pretty common knowledge that I'm an opinionated old fool. And we all pretty much carry on the customs of our instructor and of our school/organization. But you know why I think schools charge these exorbitant fees for black belt testing? [yeah, I know, because they can]

Because they don't care, they have no respect for the rank. No respect for it whatsoever, because it means nothing to them. 

Which is okay, I guess. To each his own. Sigh.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 18, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think the idea that a student is paying $x for their black belt is fundamentally misguided. You shouldn't be paying for a rank. You should be paying for the training.





skribs said:


> In the end, you're paying for both, it's just how many checks you write to get there.



I suppose it depends on your perspective. I've spent a lot of time and money on martial arts instruction over the last 37 years, but I've never done it with the objective of earning a rank. The idea that I got more of a bargain on one of my black belts than on another based on the money I spent on training over the years is foreign to me.

My first dan rank was in Bujinkan Taijutsu. At that time, all ranks trained together and my instructors didn't have formal tests for promotions. However there was material you were expected to know at each level and students had to pay for rank certificates from Japan ($25 each for 9th through 1st kyu, $100 for 1st dan and more for subsequent dan ranks).

I accepted my first promotion to 9th kyu at a seminar where Hatsumi examined and did on-the-spot promotions for all attendees. I never got around to sending off the money for my certificate. I was pretty poor at that point in my life, so I didn't pursue further promotions for several years. Eventually I noted that my instructors had mentioned they used rank as an aid in keeping track of what students needed to be shown. I asked if it would make it easier if I accepted a promotion for that purpose and they said yes. I said what the heck and told them I'd be willing to get back into the rank game and they promoted me to 3rd kyu on the spot. A few months later they came back, said they'd reconsidered, and bumped me up to 1st dan.  I paid attention after that and observed that they actually didn't change how they taught me at all after the promotions.  That being the case,  I saw no need to spend more money on rank certificates for the rest of my time in the Bujinkan.

Total money spent on training in the Bujinkan, probably about $6000 over 6-7 years. Total money spent on rank - $125.

My kickboxing instructor had a few years where he awarded belt ranks in his own eclectic kickboxing system. He gave me a black belt when I passed my apprentice instructor test in the Thai Boxing Association. There was no separate charge for the test, but it took place at a seminar I would have paid to attend anyway.

Total money spent on training kickboxing/Muay Thai, probably a few thousand dollars over 6-7 years. Total money spent on rank - $0.

I've never paid for a rank or test in BJJ. My promotion to black belt caught me completely by surprise. I was certain that I had at least a couple more years before I would be good enough.

Total money spent on BJJ, probably more than $10,000 over 20 years or so. Total money spent on rank - $0.

I have lower ranks in a few other arts. I never paid for a belt test in Judo, but I did pay a modest fee to register my rank with the USJA.  I earned brown belt in a Danzan Ryu spinoff art and paid something like $25-30 for tests which lasted a few hours on a non-class day. I figured that was reasonable compensation for the instructor's time coming in on a Saturday.


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## pdg (Apr 18, 2018)

Some of these figures for test fees - and the sheer amount of tests - kinda surprise me a fair bit...


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> Some of these figures for test fees - and the sheer amount of tests - kinda surprise me a fair bit...


Speaking to the amount of testing - I'm bipolar in that. I really liked getting over all the hurdles of the tests. But I really like surprise promotions (I've promoted a few yellow belts by strangling them with their new belts while demonstrating a defense).


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## skribs (Apr 18, 2018)

@Tony Dismukes 

At the school where you spent $6000 on training and $125 on tests, if they charged more for the tests then the tuition could have been less.  So you would have maybe spent $5000 on training and $1125 on tests.  This is the point I'm making.  If, over the course of training you, they need $6125 to make a living, that can come a number of ways.  You can have it come from $6125 of training and no money for tests, or $4000 for training and $2125 for tests.

If a school all of a sudden stopped charging for tests, they'd probably need to raise tuition fees to stay afloat.



pdg said:


> Some of these figures for test fees - and the sheer amount of tests - kinda surprise me a fair bit...



Taekwondo has a lot to it (put another way: it lacks a clear focus).  KKW TKD has a large list of forms that must be memorized, a performance and cultural aspect (similar to how Wushu is for China), it's an Olympic sport, and there's the traditional TKD self defense.  

A simpler art (or more focused art, depending on how you want to look at it) might have a lot less memorization and a narrower scope, which would allow you to focus your time on the fundamentals.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 18, 2018)

skribs said:


> @Tony Dismukes
> 
> At the school where you spent $6000 on training and $125 on tests, if they charged more for the tests then the tuition could have been less.  So you would have maybe spent $5000 on training and $1125 on tests.  This is the point I'm making.  If, over the course of training you, they need $6125 to make a living, that can come a number of ways.  You can have it come from $6125 of training and no money for tests, or $4000 for training and $2125 for tests.
> 
> ...


I think now you are focusing too much on the cost, turning the black belt into a commodity.  “This” is what it costs to get your black belt...

Instead, in my opinion, the focus should be on the training.  The belt should be a mile marker along the way and not the goal.  

Tony’s costs could be way different:  it could have taken him a lot longer or a lot shorter to earn his rank, and then the total tuition that he had paid to the school would be more or less than the numbers he cited.  So i don’t think it makes sense to put it into terms of this is how much it cost to earn his rank, or this is how much the school needs to make from you in order to be financially viable.  Rather, it should be this is a fair tuition for instruction.  Rank will be given when and if deserved, and however long that takes is largely dependent on how hard the student works at it.  Rank should simply be a blip along the way. It should not be the goal of training, and it should not be treated like an opportunity to boost revenue.  I just find that objectionable.

Regarding your comments about memorization, I think a lot of systems have a lot of forms to learn.  I never viewed it as memorization.  I just see it as drills to work on.  When we start talking about memorization, it makes me think of a performance, something to be done for a short-term purpose and then possibly discarded.  I never saw it that way.  To me, it’s all part of the method, and it’s all material to work on and practice forever, as that is how your skill gradually grows.  I guess it might just be a different mindset about it.


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## pdg (Apr 18, 2018)

skribs said:


> Taekwondo has a lot to it (put another way: it lacks a clear focus). KKW TKD has a large list of forms that must be memorized, a performance and cultural aspect (similar to how Wushu is for China), it's an Olympic sport, and there's the traditional TKD self defense



I do ITF TKD...

What I meant was that we test for each kup level, then for each dan.

I was interpreting some previous messages where things like multiple tape bands (or extra colour stripes) were referenced, as implying multiple tests per grade...


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## jks9199 (Apr 18, 2018)

Candidates for testing where their standard belt in training settings.  At our association black belt tests, the candidates where a red shirt during their testing, to differentiate them from the other people attending the camp.  They have a number on it because we're just big enough we don't all know each other as well as we ought...  Fees?  Yeah, there's a fee.  It's basically helping cover the expenses of the camp.  I don't charge my students anything extra for testing, or for the black belt I give them when they pass.  Underbelts?  No fees in our club, with a possible exception if we ended up bringing in someone unusual for the process.


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## jks9199 (Apr 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think it's quite the same. To me, there's just something "off" about big fees around testing. I'm okay with an instructor charging a bit if they are doing some of the testing outside class time. I'm even okay with them charging a bit for the bother of it all. But when "a bit" gets into the $100's, that starts to bother me. Why should the year you are testing cost you 150-200% as much as the year before? I also think it can create a reason for students to delay and resist promotions, which starts to break down whatever meaning the ranks are meant to carry.
> 
> Mind you, it is entirely possible to charge $100's with a clean conscience, good intentions, and a good outcome. My reaction is gut-level, and not entirely logical.


To me -- it's circumstantial.  If I'm bringing a few people in to witness the test, have to put them up in a facility, set up special stuff (even if it's just distributing copies of a paper for evaluation or photocopying a test)... yeah, fees are reasonable.  My association holds it's black belt test once a year, at a particular training event.  Your fees cover the training event, and the testing process.  They help pay for the site we use, the equipment that's needed, and so on.

But some of these groups or schools that hold the test on the 2nd Saturday of each even numbered month, with the testing panel entirely in-house -- and they still charge big money?  I -- speaking for myself -- couldn't do that...


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## JR 137 (Apr 18, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I think now you are focusing too much on the cost, turning the black belt into a commodity.  “This” is what it costs to get your black belt...
> 
> Instead, in my opinion, the focus should be on the training.  The belt should be a mile marker along the way and not the goal.
> 
> ...


Yes and no.  I like to think of promotion fees as part of the cost of attendance, not the cost of earning any belt.

My dojo charges $55/month for adults, and $45/month for kids, along with $10 off for families (one pays full price, the rest pay $10 less than full price).  Kyu tests range from $45-$65.  The way I look at it and using round numbers, let’s say my CI needs $1200 per year per student to operate.  He can charge flat out $100 per month, or he can charge $80/month in tuition for a total of $960 and $60 four times a year for promotions for a total of $240.  The $960 and $240 bring it to $1200 per year.

Another student and I were trying to figure out about how much our CI was making a year.  We did a very quick calculation of tuition x students - what we think rent and utilities are.  He said he doesn’t think the dojo is even break-even.  I said it probably pays for itself and maybe a few days of vacation for him and his wife once a year.  We didn’t include testing.  Out of boredom, I later used a calculator.  I now think if it weren’t for testing fees, he’d be losing money every year.  He doesn’t do dan testing; we go to our organization headquarters.

Quickly looking at the average cost of rent and utilities at our organization’s headquarters vs tuition, and I’m pretty sure our headquarters dojo is about break-even without testing fees too.  350 students x $150/month doesn’t seem like it’s very profitable about 5 doors down from the flatiron building in Manhattan.  Knowing a real estate guy in Manhattan, market value for his location, floor, and square footage is is right around the $50k+ per month he’s getting in tuition.  Plus utilities, insurance, etc.  And that’s if he’s charging everyone the full price without any discounts or freebies.  When you put actual realistic numbers on paper, that $400 for dan testing is a lot easier to understand.  Keep in mind dan testing for each student is only once every couple years vs every couple months per student at the lower ranks.

Being where he is and his overhead being what it is, the testing fee seems high, but it’s certainly not grossly excessive.  Guys in a small town with rent that’s in the $1000s rather than $10,000s charging a few hundred bucks for the test is just awful.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 18, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Yes and no.  I like to think of promotion fees as part of the cost of attendance, not the cost of earning any belt.
> 
> My dojo charges $55/month for adults, and $45/month for kids, along with $10 off for families (one pays full price, the rest pay $10 less than full price).  Kyu tests range from $45-$65.  The way I look at it and using round numbers, let’s say my CI needs $1200 per year per student to operate.  He can charge flat out $100 per month, or he can charge $80/month in tuition for a total of $960 and $60 four times a year for promotions for a total of $240.  The $960 and $240 bring it to $1200 per year.
> 
> ...


I guess I gotta wonder: why did he set up shop in the most expensive financial distric in the country?  Seems he could set up in a cheaper (but still good) location, lower the rates, have more students, and make a nice profit.

If he is pulling in over 50k in monthly fees, not counting testing fees, and can’t make a profit, I think some business decisions ought to be rethought...


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## JR 137 (Apr 18, 2018)

In tuition and all the testing fees I’ve paid over that 38 months I’ve been training at my dojo, it’s cost me right under $62 per month.  Yeah, testing fees are such a rip off 

I don’t look at it as how much it cost to earn a belt; I look at it as how much it’s cost me to train every month.

If I add in the final test before black belt, the $400 black belt test, and tuition for anoth 19 months, it’ll be $68.02 per month average.

I’m not too thrilled about the $400 test fee, but looking at it as an average of $68.02 per month to train for all that time, and I’m getting a hell of a deal.


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## JR 137 (Apr 18, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess I gotta wonder: why did he set up shop in the most expensive financial distric in the country?  Seems he could set up in a cheaper (but still good) location, lower the rates, have more students, and make a nice profit.
> 
> If he is pulling in over 50k in monthly fees, not counting testing fees, and can’t make a profit, I think some business decisions ought to be rethought...


He’s not poor by any means; he’s quite well off.  I’m sure he’s looked at it from every business angle.  He’s making his profit on testing, tournaments, seminar type stuff, etc.  He could raise tuition, but then you start getting into pricing yourself out of the market.  He’s on the lower end of average tuition for the area.  

He’s allegedly seriously considering moving due to the rent and utilities cost, but his heart is in that place.  He’s been there over 30 years.

He opened a second dojo outside the city, and he and his son split time between the two.  Tuition’s a little lower, but overhead is significantly lower.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 18, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Yes and no.  I like to think of promotion fees as part of the cost of attendance, not the cost of earning any belt.
> 
> My dojo charges $55/month for adults, and $45/month for kids, along with $10 off for families (one pays full price, the rest pay $10 less than full price).  Kyu tests range from $45-$65.  The way I look at it and using round numbers, let’s say my CI needs $1200 per year per student to operate.  He can charge flat out $100 per month, or he can charge $80/month in tuition for a total of $960 and $60 four times a year for promotions for a total of $240.  The $960 and $240 bring it to $1200 per year.
> 
> ...


And I think that's part of what drives my opinion. It would actually be possible to rent a small space for a year for that $10,000 here. It wouldn't be a nice space, but still. So a $400 testing fee is much bigger here than up your way (which I was much closer to yesterday).


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## mrt2 (Apr 18, 2018)

pdg said:


> I do ITF TKD...
> 
> What I meant was that we test for each kup level, then for each dan.
> 
> *I was interpreting some previous messages where things like multiple tape bands (or extra colour stripes) were referenced, as implying multiple tests per grade*...



When I did Tang Soo Do, we had multiple stripes on colored belts, but each was its own kup, or gup.  But back then, we only had 4 colored belts before black.  White, orange, green, and red.  So to keep progressing, you tested for up to 2 stripes on your belt, 3 on your red belt.


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## mrt2 (Apr 18, 2018)

Interesting discussion, and I have been pondering my response all day and where I stand on this.  And I say this as a person who previously trained for a number of years, and recently came back to it.  So keep in mind as a newcomer, it is possible that there are aspect of TKD I don't fully understand yet.  On the other hand, like anyone else, I have observations, and have formed some opinions.

In general, testing is an aspect of both my former style and my current style I don't like because it is a hidden fee.  As far as I can tell, other than the value of performing under pressure, testing doesn't add value, from the point of view of the student.  It does add a lot of value to the coffers of the dojang.

First, I will say that testing fees were a thing when I did Tang Soo Do 35 years ago and relatively speaking, the testing fees weren't cheap.  So, big surprise (not), in TKD, testing fees are again, a thing. Back in my Tang Soo Do days, I assumed the testing fees were a way for local TSD instructors to help out other TSD instructors, since the way it was done back then was, we tested before guest judges, so I figured my testing fees went to pay the judges, and in turn, my master got to collect fees from other schools where he was a guest judge.

In my current TKD school, the tests are done in house by the Master, and other assistant instructors who, presumably do this as part of their jobs.  And, colored belt testing is on a regular schedule, held once a month on the last Saturday of the month.  So as far as testing fees are concerned, they are just a hidden, or not so hidden fee.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder why the need to do testing at all.  When the head instructor thinks a student has demonstrated enough proficiency to advance to the next rank. just award them the next belt.

There is another aspect of testing that bugs me.  And perhaps this may be an issue where there is tension between the school and TKD in general.  That is, there are clearly parts of the curriculum students are supposed to know for tests that don't get emphasized.  Over the last week, I saw several of our provisional black belts literally cramming to figure out the myriad one steps, basic combinations, linear forms, forms (and the minutia of the forms, like how many movements, what does it means, etc) and sparring combos they need to know for their black belt test in just a few weeks.

And here is the thing.  I think there is, maybe, too much rote memorization, especially on the one steps, and not enough realistic application that I would hope would really show mastery of these techniques.  Put another way, shouldn't the one steps be practiced against an opponent, and not just memorized prior to a test?  Same with memorizing facts about a form.  If this is important, why aren't students required to recite this stuff every class, when they do the forms?

Now, some have suggested voluntarily skipping chances to test, but at least in TKD, the motivation to test is, they won't teach you everything until you advance to the next belt.  It isn't a hard rule with every instructor but with the head instructor and his son, it pretty much is.  And at least at my current school, there are advanced classes lower belts can't attend at all, so I can see that as I advance past yellow through green to purple, and eventually brown belt, there are more opportunities to learn new material, and train with more advanced students.  So even though I don't like this testing system, it is something I have to do to get better.


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## MI_martialist (Apr 19, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I suppose if there's some significant charge for the belt (I've never seen anyplace that charged significantly, except maybe for a black belt), though I can't see how it would bring more testing revenue?



They buy at wholesale and sell at retail  Generally it's a $3 or $4 markup, so $4 x 4 (tests per year?) x 100 students = $1600 per year? / 12 = $133 per month extra revenue...and I bet the mark-up is more...combine that with shirts, special uniforms, seminars, etc...$$$


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## pdg (Apr 19, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> When I did Tang Soo Do, we had multiple stripes on colored belts, but each was its own kup, or gup.  But back then, we only had 4 colored belts before black.  White, orange, green, and red.  So to keep progressing, you tested for up to 2 stripes on your belt, 3 on your red belt.



That's fair enough done that way.

I've heard of a 'chain school' (from an ex student) where for each kup they'd do a mini test - say a third of your pattern and a bit of theory - at least once a month (at a 'discounted' fee ) and only when you'd collected 3 tags could you take the actual (full price...) test. So in effect, 4 tests per grade.

None of those tests were included in the (already high) monthly training fee


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 19, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> The more I think about it, the more I wonder why the need to do testing at all. When the head instructor thinks a student has demonstrated enough proficiency to advance to the next rank. just award them the next belt.


A few thoughts on why tests are used. Firstly, if there's a reasonably large school, and some assistant/associate instructors, the CI might not get to see all a student does. In many schools, the CI does all the promotions in order to maintain consistency within the school, so they will need to test to ensure they've seen all the salient points from each student. There's also the issue of covering all the bases. In arts like BJJ, for instance, promotion is not so much about individual techniques (as I understand it). They can't have big gaps in skill areas (great in mount, awful at escapes), but they don't have to be able to do every specific technique so long as they are able to perform in all areas. But many (most?) TMA (and TMA-ish) groups also (sometimes only) consider technical proficiency by technique. To be sure no technique is missed, there has to be some sort of testing. I've been known to conduct covert testing (assigning a student to work on a set of techniques in class and making sure I see each one done well before checking them off as "passed"), but I can't skip that if technique-based evaluation is part of my promotion requirements.



> There is another aspect of testing that bugs me. And perhaps this may be an issue where there is tension between the school and TKD in general. That is, there are clearly parts of the curriculum students are supposed to know for tests that don't get emphasized. Over the last week, I saw several of our provisional black belts literally cramming to figure out the myriad one steps, basic combinations, linear forms, forms (and the minutia of the forms, like how many movements, what does it means, etc) and sparring combos they need to know for their black belt test in just a few weeks.


A pet peeve of mine. I've seen things taught just in time for the student to learn them for the test. I dislike that - maybe even deplore it. Testing should be a verification, not a first step. I don't really even like to see students preparing for a test, except where they know they have a specific problem or weakness they need to shore up. IMO, tests should be far enough away from the initial learning that the student can focus on the learning and the test is just verifying they did their job.



> And here is the thing. I think there is, maybe, too much rote memorization, especially on the one steps, and not enough realistic application that I would hope would really show mastery of these techniques. Put another way, shouldn't the one steps be practiced against an opponent, and not just memorized prior to a test? Same with memorizing facts about a form. If this is important, why aren't students required to recite this stuff every class, when they do the forms?


This becomes a problem when there's no focus for the forms. Students sometimes get cranky with me because I'll interrupt their form to correct some principle. They want to practice the form (rote memorization) and I want them to practice the principle. The form should be a tool for practice. I do test forms, but for two purposes: to make sure they know the sequence (since I use them as a tool, I need them to know that), and to make sure they're demonstrating the principles appropriate for their rank (and sometimes specific principles I have that student working on).

I have seen rote work on our Classical forms (which are reasonably close to what you call one steps). It bugs me. When I visit my instructor's school, I often get questions from students about where a foot goes or something of that nature. I always answer it with something like, "Why does that foot matter?" If they can answer that question, they are focused on principle, rather than the rote memorization. That principle becomes more important in live work than the rote memorization, and the live work (realistic application) is, after all, the point.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 19, 2018)

MI_martialist said:


> They buy at wholesale and sell at retail  Generally it's a $3 or $4 markup, so $4 x 4 (tests per year?) x 100 students = $1600 per year? / 12 = $133 per month extra revenue...and I bet the mark-up is more...combine that with shirts, special uniforms, seminars, etc...$$$


Most schools I've seen the numbers on have maybe a $3 markup, and fewer than 100 students, with about half of them testing about once  year, the rest averaging 3 tests a year. Yes, shirts and such do have more, but that's not related to testing. Uniforms usually carry more markup (I sell mine at wholesale, rounded up to cover shipping), but most students won't buy a new uniform for years (in fact, most students will quit before they wear one out).


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> That's fair enough done that way.
> 
> I've heard of a 'chain school' (from an ex student) where for each kup they'd do a mini test - say a third of your pattern and a bit of theory - at least once a month (at a 'discounted' fee ) and only when you'd collected 3 tags could you take the actual (full price...) test. So in effect, 4 tests per grade.
> 
> None of those tests were included in the (already high) monthly training fee


If we followed the principle of value-based pricing, that assumes there's some value to the student in all those tests. I'd argue there's a negative value (lost training time and focus).


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## Flying Crane (Apr 19, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> Interesting discussion, and I have been pondering my response all day and where I stand on this.  And I say this as a person who previously trained for a number of years, and recently came back to it.  So keep in mind as a newcomer, it is possible that there are aspect of TKD I don't fully understand yet.  On the other hand, like anyone else, I have observations, and have formed some opinions.
> 
> In general, testing is an aspect of both my former style and my current style I don't like because it is a hidden fee.  As far as I can tell, other than the value of performing under pressure, testing doesn't add value, from the point of view of the student.  It does add a lot of value to the coffers of the dojang.
> 
> ...


What you are described by here is, in my opinion, a school that is giving piss-poor instruction.  If it is typical that students who have an approaching test are scrambling to memorize a bunch of neglected portions of their curriculum, or the curriculum was taught very recently to simply have material to test on without really learning the material and using it to develop their skill, then quite honestly this is a school I would avoid.

The material is supposed to be useful tools to help a student develop skills.  It sounds to me like the owners and teachers of the school are just going through the motions, lining people up to test and advance in rank, without really learning anything, and it sounds like testing fees are at least part of the motivation behind it.  That, and perhaps genuine incompetence.

What you are describing is, in my opinion, disgusting.


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## mrt2 (Apr 19, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> What you are described by here is, in my opinion, a school that is giving piss-poor instruction.  If it is typical that students who have an approaching test are scrambling to memorize a bunch of neglected portions of their curriculum, or the curriculum was taught very recently to simply have material to test on without really learning the material and using it to develop their skill, then quite honestly this is a school I would avoid.
> 
> The material is supposed to be useful tools to help a student develop skills.  It sounds to me like the owners and teachers of the school are just going through the motions, lining people up to test and advance in rank, without really learning anything, and it sounds like testing fees are at least part of the motivation behind it.  That, and perhaps genuine incompetence.
> 
> What you are describing is, in my opinion, disgusting.


Wow, that is a harsh assessment, and certainly not my intention to trash my own school.  I do watch closely and there certainly are some very highly skilled black belts and instructors who seem to know what they are doing.  There is a guy a little older than me who is about to test for his 2nd Dan who trains insanely hard and really knows his stuff.  He is sort of the guy at my school I am trying to emulate because of his age, his drive to overcome injuries, and his insight into how guys over 50 can adapt TKD techniques and still be great fighters.  But, certainly not every 1st Dan, is as dedicated as that guy, and that worries me a bit.  I plan on attending the black belt test in a couple of weeks to see for myself how these people do. And I will continue to watch closely to see who gets promoted and who doesn't over the next 6 months to a year. If, going forward, I don't get the answers I am looking for, I will have to re evaluate my options.

Comparing this go around with my previous training in Tang Soo do, I will say this.  Nobody who regularly attended those Tang Soo Do classes would struggle to remember basics, or forms.  But as far as I remember, I did struggle to find time to learn black belt level techniques and forms back then.  And come to think of it, Tang Soo Do might have had even more rote memorization.

My current school offers more advanced level classes with the head instructor than my former school did.  I have watched some of these classes, and they do seem a lot more physical than the basic classes I have been attending so far. So I hope that when the time comes, I will get the training I need to test for black belt, and these cramming provisional black belts are more the exception of folks who haven't put in enough time doing advanced classes.  That said, I do suspect there is a fair amount of techniques in TKD that are vestigial, but nonetheless if you want to call yourself a TKD school, you need to teach them anyway.


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## skribs (Apr 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> I do ITF TKD...
> 
> What I meant was that we test for each kup level, then for each dan.
> 
> I was interpreting some previous messages where things like multiple tape bands (or extra colour stripes) were referenced, as implying multiple tests per grade...



That's exactly what I was saying.  Although there is more to every test.


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## skribs (Apr 19, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I think now you are focusing too much on the cost, turning the black belt into a commodity.  “This” is what it costs to get your black belt...
> 
> Instead, in my opinion, the focus should be on the training.  The belt should be a mile marker along the way and not the goal.
> 
> ...



And in my school, the rank and the training go hand-in-hand.  The rank determines what class you attend and what part of the curriculum you receive.  If you never test at my school, you will most likely get really good at the white belt techniques and the white belt version of those techniques.

For example:


A white belt learns the basic punches and kicks, as well as some grappling techniques to escape situations
A purple belt learns footwork to go along with the kicks, more advanced forms, and grappling techniques to take control of situations.  Purple belt is also when we start contact sparring.  Purple belt is also when back kick is learned, and when they start to learn some of the more technical details of their techniques
A green belt learns to better connect punches and kicks together, and start getting more complicated kicking drills, as well as a wider variety of defense scenarios.  Green belts also start to learn spinning hook kick and tornado kick, but are not expected to be proficient in these kicks.  They are expected to have mastered the basics, but continue to get more and more details to continue to improve them
A red belt starts to learn incredibly complicated forms, much more difficult kicking drills, and again have an increase in the scenarios available for self defense training
Some of my favorite sparring drills have come from the 2nd Dan black belt curriculum, so even if I just got a black belt and stopped ranking up, I would have missed out on training.
Now, a big part of the reason for this is the shear number of students we have.  We have 10 different classes based on age/rank, and each class usually has 12-25 people in it.  We use the your rank to determine what class you should be in, and therefore what part of the curriculum we should be teaching.

If you are a white belt in our system for a year, you probably won't get much individual instruction, because our attention will usually go to those who need the most help.  If you have a solid grasp of the white belt curriculum and are performing above a white belt level, then I will probably use you as an example for some of the techniques, but my attention will gravitate to the new person who just came in, to the teenager who needs help focusing, or to the middle-aged guy who is really struggling to get his body to understand what his mind sees.

You might get to work on some of the details to improve your technique, but you won't be pushed as hard to improve as you would if you tested up.  If two similar people were to start at the same time, with the only difference in their natural ability and their diligence in training is that one person opted to stay a white belt and the other tested all the way to blue belt, I would expect the blue belt to be far ahead of the white belt, because:

He's constantly had instruction to improve his technique to the blue belt standard, while the white belt probably only gets these tidbits once every couple weeks or so
He's surrounded by students at the blue belt level instead of the white belt level, and whether by comradery or by competition, has risen to the challenge
He's been exposed to a larger variety of techniques and footwork, and has a more complete toolkit
Related to the point above - sometimes the dots connect better when you are doing something more complicated.
Other arts will do this differently.  Arts without a belt or rank system will have a different way of organizing their curriculum and their classes.  But if you go to a school where rank is a thing, then it's probably a thing for a reason, and you're holding yourself back if you refuse to rank up.*

*I'm not saying you should rush through the ranks.  In Taekwondo I've basically tested as fast as I could, but in Hapkido I'm taking my time until I can master the material at my given rank.  But in both cases, once I am ready for the next test, I test.


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## JR 137 (Apr 19, 2018)

pdg said:


> That's fair enough done that way.
> 
> I've heard of a 'chain school' (from an ex student) where for each kup they'd do a mini test - say a third of your pattern and a bit of theory - at least once a month (at a 'discounted' fee ) and only when you'd collected 3 tags could you take the actual (full price...) test. So in effect, 4 tests per grade.
> 
> None of those tests were included in the (already high) monthly training fee


That’s just disgusting.  Same as charging for the stripes mentioned by the OP in between tests.  Same as around me, there’s a school that makes all black belts “re-certify” (I think is their term) every 9 months.  So they’re tested on their current rank material, and if they fail once or twice (or some number) during their entire time between dan tests, they have to re-take their entire dan test for their rank all over again.  If it’s all free, it’s a decent way to assure people are progressing rather than being complacent (I think there’s too many cons though).  Problem is it isn’t free more cheap.  Something like $100 each time.  Just disgusting IMO.

My former organization uses/used stripes in between kyu tests.  You were tested on kata, then other standardized stuff.  Pass them both, you were eligible for testing.  The stripe tests were free, so it was all good.  If they charged, I’d have walked out.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 20, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> Wow, that is a harsh assessment, and certainly not my intention to trash my own school.  I do watch closely and there certainly are some very highly skilled black belts and instructors who seem to know what they are doing.  There is a guy a little older than me who is about to test for his 2nd Dan who trains insanely hard and really knows his stuff.  He is sort of the guy at my school I am trying to emulate because of his age, his drive to overcome injuries, and his insight into how guys over 50 can adapt TKD techniques and still be great fighters.  But, certainly not every 1st Dan, is as dedicated as that guy, and that worries me a bit.  I plan on attending the black belt test in a couple of weeks to see for myself how these people do. And I will continue to watch closely to see who gets promoted and who doesn't over the next 6 months to a year. If, going forward, I don't get the answers I am looking for, I will have to re evaluate my options.
> 
> Comparing this go around with my previous training in Tang Soo do, I will say this.  Nobody who regularly attended those Tang Soo Do classes would struggle to remember basics, or forms.  But as far as I remember, I did struggle to find time to learn black belt level techniques and forms back then.  And come to think of it, Tang Soo Do might have had even more rote memorization.
> 
> My current school offers more advanced level classes with the head instructor than my former school did.  I have watched some of these classes, and they do seem a lot more physical than the basic classes I have been attending so far. So I hope that when the time comes, I will get the training I need to test for black belt, and these cramming provisional black belts are more the exception of folks who haven't put in enough time doing advanced classes.  That said, I do suspect there is a fair amount of techniques in TKD that are vestigial, but nonetheless if you want to call yourself a TKD school, you need to teach them anyway.


I appreciate the clarification.

It may be that your school is perfectly fine.  Obviously I am not there to see what is going on and make some kind of judgement on it.

I think sometimes people who may have experience with only one school may have landed in a bad school and don’t realize it because they have no other experience to compare it to.  I don’t know if that describes you or not.

Of course there are always those students who don’t train with committment and struggle to remember their material.  To them, it may seem like a memorization task.

But the way you had described it just raised some red flags in my mind.

If those issues are regular and prevalent, then I see that as a serious problem with the quality of the instruction.  If those issues are limited to a few individuals who don’t or can’t give some real committment to their training, then it’s not an issue.

But the things that cause the alarm bells to go off in my head are if material is being taught just before a test, without time for the student to train with that material and get to really understand it first.  If the material is being taught simply to have something to test you on, that is a problem.

If things like forms are taught and then never get revisited except for test day, that is a problem.  Not every system uses forms/kata/poomsae, and that is fine.  They are not necessary in order to train a martial system.  But if they are used, then they need to be trained diligently and they need to be explored to understand the lessons that they hold, and to drill that material. Otherwise the forms practice is useless.  I get the feeling that in a lot of schools, forms are just filler material.  They exist in the curriculum as a nod to “tradition”, but nobody understands them as a genuine training tool, and nobody is doing them well, and nobody can seem to remember them because they are rarely trained or are treated as a simple warmup exercise, done quickly and without thought, and rushed through to get to the “real” stuff.

If students are generally scrambling around to remember their material for test day, that is a problem.  They ought to be training this material on a regular basis, and it should no longer be a memorization exercise.  They ought to be LEARNING the material, not just serially memorizing it and forgetting it.

So if these issues are uncommon, then the school may be just fine.  But if these issues are typical and common and prevalent, most of the students fit this description, then the school is giving poor instruction, in my opinion.

Students need to be responsible for the ongoing practice of what they have learned.  They need to practice outside of class as well.  If they are not doing that, then they will run into some of these problems.  So the students have some responsibility for their own failings as well.  But the practices of the instructor in how he is teaching and running the school, can definitely set up the student for failure.  But the failure is masked as a success and a new rank is awarded and another fee is collected.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> But the things that cause the alarm bells to go off in my head are if material is being taught just before a test, without time for the student to train with that material and get to really understand it first. If the material is being taught simply to have something to test you on, that is a problem.


The only exception I can think of to this objection would be if the objective is for the student to kind of know something they'll be focusing on in the next part of the curriculum. It feels backwards to me, but I can see how it might work. So, I teach you the Front Wrist Throw (a version of Kote Gaeshi) a week before your test, and you're expected to be able to get through the basic movements and look sort of correct. Right after your test, we spend the next several classes digging into that technique and its applications in depth. Again, it feels backwards, but I could see it being workable. If the test is the endpoint, then it makes no sense to me to have last-minute material.



> If things like forms are taught and then never get revisited except for test day, that is a problem. Not every system uses forms/kata/poomsae, and that is fine. They are not necessary in order to train a martial system. But if they are used, then they need to be trained diligently and they need to be explored to understand the lessons that they hold, and to drill that material. Otherwise the forms practice is useless. I get the feeling that in a lot of schools, forms are just filler material. They exist in the curriculum as a nod to “tradition”, but nobody understands them as a genuine training tool, and nobody is doing them well, and nobody can seem to remember them because they are rarely trained or are treated as a simple warmup exercise, done quickly and without thought, and rushed through to get to the “real” stuff.


Agreed. I'd sooner see forms go untested but used as tools for learning than the other way around. The only good use I can see for a form that's not tied to principles is as a warm-up exercise. It has no real MA value, but the range of movement could be useful. Of course, some old-style calisthenics will do that, too, with a lot less memorization needed.


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## skribs (Apr 20, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> That’s just disgusting.  Same as charging for the stripes mentioned by the OP in between tests.  Same as around me, there’s a school that makes all black belts “re-certify” (I think is their term) every 9 months.  So they’re tested on their current rank material, and if they fail once or twice (or some number) during their entire time between dan tests, they have to re-take their entire dan test for their rank all over again.  If it’s all free, it’s a decent way to assure people are progressing rather than being complacent (I think there’s too many cons though).  Problem is it isn’t free more cheap.  Something like $100 each time.  Just disgusting IMO.
> 
> My former organization uses/used stripes in between kyu tests.  You were tested on kata, then other standardized stuff.  Pass them both, you were eligible for testing.  The stripe tests were free, so it was all good.  If they charged, I’d have walked out.



Why are stripe tests and solid color belt tests different to you?


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## pdg (Apr 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> Why are stripe tests and solid color belt tests different to you?



I think the issue is using a stripe as a 'sub-kup/kyu' test.

If the stripe represents a 'full' grade, then it's a full test (like we use striped belts between solid colour, 9th kup is white with yellow stripe, 7th is yellow with green stripe, and so on), but if you have to accumulate a number of stripes and tests to get from, say, 8th to 7th it gets silly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> Why are stripe tests and solid color belt tests different to you?


I think the difference he's looking at is somewhat subjective, but real. If a style has 5 kyu/kup levels, then that should be 5 tests. If the school is charging a nominal fee for those (say $40), that's not a big deal. But if the school uses stripes between as an excuse to add more fees (testing for each stripe, and charging another $20 for each), that bothers me. Mind you, some styles have 3 kyu/kup, and others have 10, so it's somewhat a matter of perception.


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## skribs (Apr 20, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think the difference he's looking at is somewhat subjective, but real. If a style has 5 kyu/kup levels, then that should be 5 tests. If the school is charging a nominal fee for those (say $40), that's not a big deal. But if the school uses stripes between as an excuse to add more fees (testing for each stripe, and charging another $20 for each), that bothers me. Mind you, some styles have 3 kyu/kup, and others have 10, so it's somewhat a matter of perception.



Even with 28 tests to get your black belt at the other school, I didn't feel like any of it was adding fees to make the journey more expensive.

If anything, it was adding requirements to make the journey take more time.  The master at that school didn't want just anyone to get their black belt.  He wanted them to have worked real hard for several years before getting it, so that the black belt meant something.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> Even with 28 tests to get your black belt at the other school, I didn't feel like any of it was adding fees to make the journey more expensive.
> 
> If anything, it was adding requirements to make the journey take more time.  The master at that school didn't want just anyone to get their black belt.  He wanted them to have worked real hard for several years before getting it, so that the black belt meant something.


As I said, it's somewhat a matter of perception. If the tests seem to have a real function, there's less objection to them - and to some reasonable fee attached. I don't personally like testing fees (I'd consider some small promotion fee to cover belts and such), but I don't really object to their use when they are reasonable.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> Even with 28 tests to get your black belt at the other school, I didn't feel like any of it was adding fees to make the journey more expensive.
> 
> If anything, it was adding requirements to make the journey take more time.  The master at that school didn't want just anyone to get their black belt.  He wanted them to have worked real hard for several years before getting it, so that the black belt meant something.


A lot of that would depend on how often the stripe tests are held and what they are actually testing.

If you have 10 kyu gradings and you need to test for and earn four stripes for each before you can then test again for the full kyu promotion, and tests for stripes are held every two weeks, with an additional fee, that seems like a problem to me.  Tests are so frequent that there would be little change in a student from one to the next, it looks suspiciously like the teacher is just artificially creating a need for frequent tests and frequent extra fees.  That is 40 tests before black belt, each with a fee.

Or

If you have three kyu gradings, and you have to earn three stripes for each before testing for the full kyu promotion, and stripe tests are held every 6-9 months or so, that seems less suspicious.  That is nine tests before black belt, with significant training time in between.

Or

You simply have ten kyu gradings with no stripes, tests are held every 9-12 months, there are ten tests before black belt.  Very straight forward and simple, and roughly equivalent to option number two, above.

So it really depends on the setup.


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## pdg (Apr 20, 2018)

I have a mathematical issue with this part of your post:



Flying Crane said:


> If you have 10 kyu gradings and you need to test for and earn four stripes for each before you can then test again for the full kyu promotion, and tests for stripes are held every two weeks, with an additional fee, that seems like a problem to me. Tests are so frequent that there would be little change in a student from one to the next, it looks suspiciously like the teacher is just artificially creating a need for frequent tests and frequent extra fees. That is 40 tests before black belt, each with a fee.



That'd be 50 tests (4 stripes x 10 grades, plus 10 grades).

Apart from that - as you were


----------



## pdg (Apr 20, 2018)

Oh, there's also the interpretation of what a stripe consists of, which I alluded to before.

We use solid colours for even numbered kup grades, and odd numbered grades have a stripe of the 'next' colour along their length.

10 grades, 10 belts (5 solid, 5 striped).

Same as if you kept your white belt and added a wrap for each grade, get to 10, test for black.

As said by @Flying Crane , loads of intermediate mini tests a couple of weeks apart just don't seem warranted to me...


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## JR 137 (Apr 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> Why are stripe tests and solid color belt tests different to you?


A stripe test was a low-pressure, part of class time kind of thing.  We’d individually stand in front of the class, do our kata, critique each other, then line back up.  Before lining back up, my teacher would put a strip of tape around my belt.

Same for the second stripe test, which was one-step and similar standardized stuff.

If it was an academic class, it would be the difference between a quiz and a final cumulative exam.

Why would I be out if I had to pay for that?  All it would be IMO is nickeling and diming.  What justification is there to pay for a 2 minute assessment, paying it twice, and then paying for the actual belt promotion test?  How much does a strip of electrical tape cost?

Maybe I’m missing something.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

pdg said:


> I have a mathematical issue with this part of your post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Couldn't help yourself, could you?


----------



## Flying Crane (Apr 20, 2018)

pdg said:


> I have a mathematical issue with this part of your post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I was just noticing that myself.  Thank you for keeping me in my toes.

It is true for option 2 as well.  It is three stripe for each kyu, and three kyu tests, total is 12, not 9.

I’ve had my head wrapped up in calculus for a while, sometimes I just cannot be bothered with such mundane arithmetic.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 20, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Not every system uses forms/kata/poomsae, and that is fine. They are not necessary in order to train a martial system. But if they are used, then they need to be trained diligently and they need to be explored to understand the lessons that they hold, and to drill that material. Otherwise the forms practice is useless.


Totally agree. Whatever benefits may come from form practice, you don't get them just from memorizing the choreography. Whenever I see someone describing a test or a competition and they talk about making mistakes (or not) in the sequence, I think something is wrong with the situation. By the time you've explored a form deeply enough to get any genuine use out of it, the choreography should long since be second nature.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 20, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Totally agree. Whatever benefits may come from form practice, you don't get them just from memorizing the choreography. Whenever I see someone describing a test or a competition and they talk about making mistakes (or not) in the sequence, I think something is wrong with the situation. By the time you've explored a form deeply enough to get any genuine use out of it, the choreography should long since be second nature.


It also indicates that people are just going through the motions.  They race through the form to get to the end, rather that focus on every section, to do it correctly.  As a result, the choreography is essentially “correct”, but everything about it is wrong.  Their stances and power transitions are all incomplete because they are rushing.  Doing a form is a chance to take it slow and GET IT RIGHT.  It should not be performance art.

There have been many debates here on Martialtalk, about the value of forms practice. Well like most things, it depends.  Forms practice in and of itself is not good or bad.  If it is done poorly, then it is worthless.  If it is done well, then it is very valuable.  For some people, their forms practice is worthless.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, I was just noticing that myself.  Thank you for keeping me in my toes.
> 
> It is true for option 2 as well.  It is three stripe for each kyu, and three kyu tests, total is 12, not 9.
> 
> I’ve had my head wrapped up in calculus for a while, sometimes I just cannot be bothered with such mundane arithmetic.


Get your head out of your abacus, Xue.


----------



## Flying Crane (Apr 20, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Get your head out of your abacus, Xue.


Another correction: I’m not Xue!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Another correction: I’m not Xue!
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!


Damnit - posted without paying attention. I need more caffeine!


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Apr 20, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Another correction: I’m not Xue!
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!


C’mon, you know all you CMA guys look the same.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 20, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Damnit - posted without paying attention. I need more caffeine!


Get your head out of your abacus, Tony.


----------



## skribs (Apr 20, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> A stripe test was a low-pressure, part of class time kind of thing.  We’d individually stand in front of the class, do our kata, critique each other, then line back up.  Before lining back up, my teacher would put a strip of tape around my belt.
> 
> Same for the second stripe test, which was one-step and similar standardized stuff.
> 
> ...



What you're missing is that for the school I'm talking about, the stripe test was an official test.  Tests were every month or two (this was like 20 years ago, so bear with me on my memory a bit), and it wasn't done "in-class".

Stripe tests like you say, which are basically an in-class assessment of a portion of the curriculum, shouldn't be charged, or maybe $5 or $10 for the dedicated instructor time to evaluate.  They shouldn't be $50-75 like a full test.  These tests make it feel like a sub-grade instead of a grade.

However, if getting a stripe is basically the same as a new belt - in that it comes with new requirements, increased responsibility, and it's a very similar testing process, then it can be considered a separate grade.  If your school is going to have more grades, then stripes make more sense than doing different colors.  For example, with 28 belts, would it be:


White
Yellow
Purple
Orange
Green
Blue
Red
Brown
Pink
Mustard Yellow
Periwinkle
Red-Orange
Sea Green
Royal Blue
Burghundy
Tan
Hot Pink
You get the idea.  There's white and black, the primary and secondary colors, and brown.  Anything after that and you need to start using shades.  Or use pink, but then risk a significant number of boys leaving the gym because "I don't want a pink belt".


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## JR 137 (Apr 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> What you're missing is that for the school I'm talking about, the stripe test was an official test.  Tests were every month or two (this was like 20 years ago, so bear with me on my memory a bit), and it wasn't done "in-class".
> 
> Stripe tests like you say, which are basically an in-class assessment of a portion of the curriculum, shouldn't be charged, or maybe $5 or $10 for the dedicated instructor time to evaluate.  They shouldn't be $50-75 like a full test.  These tests make it feel like a sub-grade instead of a grade.
> 
> ...


So a stripe is an unofficial new rank, or a rank within a rank?  So we’re on the same page, a “stripe” is a strip of electrical tape, taped near the end of a belt, like a dan stripe would be on a black belt; not a stripe that goes the entire length of the belt like a junior black belt has the white stripe, correct?

My school did (as does my current school) 10th-1st kyu.  Let’s say I’m a 10th kyu, and promotion to 9th kyu is typically 3 months.  After about 2 months, I get tested on my kata as described above.  I get a stripe on my belt.  A few weeks later I get tested on one-steps, and a 2nd stripe on my belt.  All those two stripes mean is that I’m eligible to test for 9th kyu.  I don’t learn any new material, have any new responsibilities, etc.  I’m still 10th kyu.  Same with every kyu rank until black belt, then stripes are non-existent.

So when your school awards you a stripe, you learn more material afterwards?  I’ve seen some syllabi where they list level 1, level 2, etc. within a kyu rank and learn new material at each level.  But there isn’t a formal test to get to the next level within a kyu rank; rather, the student would be taught the new material after the instructor thought the student had a good enough grasp of the easier stuff.  Better way to put it, if there are 3 kata required for 3rd kyu, the teacher will teach one kata, wait until the student gets that one somewhat down, then teach the second one, wait until that one’s good enough, then the 3rd one instead of teaching them all in a shorter time period and let them improve them together.

Having a somewhat formal rank within a rank seems odd to me, but I have no experience with it so who am I to criticize?

One other question... after you earn a stripe, are you tested on that material again during a full promotion exam, or is it not tested because you’ve already demonstrated proficiency?  We were tested on everything during promotion exams; the stripe only meant you were eligible to be tested and not that you’ve officially passed anything.


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## skribs (Apr 20, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> So a stripe is an unofficial new rank, or a rank within a rank?  So we’re on the same page, a “stripe” is a strip of electrical tape, taped near the end of a belt, like a dan stripe would be on a black belt; not a stripe that goes the entire length of the belt like a junior black belt has the white stripe, correct?
> 
> My school did (as does my current school) 10th-1st kyu.  Let’s say I’m a 10th kyu, and promotion to 9th kyu is typically 3 months.  After about 2 months, I get tested on my kata as described above.  I get a stripe on my belt.  A few weeks later I get tested on one-steps, and a 2nd stripe on my belt.  All those two stripes mean is that I’m eligible to test for 9th kyu.  I don’t learn any new material, have any new responsibilities, etc.  I’m still 10th kyu.  Same with every kyu rank until black belt, then stripes are non-existent.
> 
> ...



That school tested everything every time, if I remember right.  Keep in mind, I was 7 years old when I started there, and I was 11 when I quit.  I started 22 years ago.  So I wasn't quite aware of all the processes and I don't remember everything today.  Also, I don't know what anything costed, because as far as I was concerned, it was free.

Basically we thought of it like White Belt, White 1, White 2, White 3, and Yellow Belt.  Then Yellow 1, Yellow 2, Yellow 3, and then Purple Belt.  As an example of what was needed, we had exercises (which were like mini-forms) and forms.  So white belt needed to learn Exercise 1 and test on it.  White 1 needed to learn Exercise 2, and was tested on Exercises 1 & 2.  White 2 needed to learn Exercise 3, and was tested on Exercises 1-3.  White 3 needed to learn Form 1, and was tested on Exercises 1-3, and Form 1.  The school did Kibon forms (which are basic forms), Palgwe forms (older KKW forms) and Taegeuk forms (newer KKW forms) in addition to the Exercises.  So there was a lot of stuff to memorize, but I think only one new form/exercise each test.

There was obviously other stuff, such as punches, kicks, etc. that you had to learn, and there was a lot of sparring, too.  But that's what I remember as far as curriculum goes.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> What you're missing is that for the school I'm talking about, the stripe test was an official test.  Tests were every month or two (this was like 20 years ago, so bear with me on my memory a bit), and it wasn't done "in-class".
> 
> Stripe tests like you say, which are basically an in-class assessment of a portion of the curriculum, shouldn't be charged, or maybe $5 or $10 for the dedicated instructor time to evaluate.  They shouldn't be $50-75 like a full test.  These tests make it feel like a sub-grade instead of a grade.
> 
> ...


I love the image of folks trying to tell the difference between a dirty yellow belt, a faded brown belt, and a mustard yellow belt. The red, red-orange, and orange would only be confusing when all three aren't in the room at the same time. And somebody's going to wash their burgundy belt into either hot pink (promotion!) or pink (demotion!).


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> What you're missing is that for the school I'm talking about, the stripe test was an official test.  Tests were every month or two (this was like 20 years ago, so bear with me on my memory a bit), and it wasn't done "in-class".
> 
> Stripe tests like you say, which are basically an in-class assessment of a portion of the curriculum, shouldn't be charged, or maybe $5 or $10 for the dedicated instructor time to evaluate.  They shouldn't be $50-75 like a full test.  These tests make it feel like a sub-grade instead of a grade.
> 
> ...



You forgot the cammo belt... (which is actually used by one system).

In our system, there are 10 geup ranks. Belts are white, yellow, green, blue and red. 9th geup is yellow belt. 8th is yellow with a green tape stripe added to the tip. 7th is green. 6th is green with a blue stripe, etc. 3rd is red, 2nd has one black stripe, 1st has 2 black stripes. Chodanbo is half red/half black (the KKW poom belt).
Testing for rank is testing for rank, because each step is another geup rank. While I know of schools that do 'fractional tests' between ranks, we do not.


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## pdg (Apr 21, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> So we’re on the same page, a “stripe” is a strip of electrical tape, taped near the end of a belt, like a dan stripe would be on a black belt; not a stripe that goes the entire length of the belt like a junior black belt has the white stripe, correct?



I'm on a different page 

This is what I consider a stripe:


 

3rd kup belt - 4th kup is solid blue, 2nd is solid red.

In this instance a "stripe test" is indistinguishable from a "solid colour test" because it's a whole grade.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Apr 21, 2018)

Since im doing american kenpo karate we have like 3 black tips on our brown belt then you gonna test for black our is back ward it goes 321 brown then black and some other its 123 then black belt


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## KenpoMaster805 (Apr 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> What you're missing is that for the school I'm talking about, the stripe test was an official test.  Tests were every month or two (this was like 20 years ago, so bear with me on my memory a bit), and it wasn't done "in-class".
> 
> Stripe tests like you say, which are basically an in-class assessment of a portion of the curriculum, shouldn't be charged, or maybe $5 or $10 for the dedicated instructor time to evaluate.  They shouldn't be $50-75 like a full test.  These tests make it feel like a sub-grade instead of a grade.
> 
> ...



we only wear pink belt when its October Breast cancer awareness month we even have pink with black stripe


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> You forgot the cammo belt... (which is actually used by one system).
> 
> In our system, there are 10 geup ranks. Belts are white, yellow, green, blue and red. 9th geup is yellow belt. 8th is yellow with a green tape stripe added to the tip. 7th is green. 6th is green with a blue stripe, etc. 3rd is red, 2nd has one black stripe, 1st has 2 black stripes. Chodanbo is half red/half black (the KKW poom belt).
> Testing for rank is testing for rank, because each step is another geup rank. While I know of schools that do 'fractional tests' between ranks, we do not.


I want to find someone who uses random tape colors for stripes. Just buy the 8-pack on Amazon (you know, to cut the high cost of those stripe, man), and go crazy with it. Or maybe use the color to indicate their opinion of the student: "This yellow belt just passed his first stripe test, but barely - dude gets a yellow stripe.That guy over there sucked so bad at his test we gave him a white stripe."

Okay, maybe I need more coffee. Haven't really found a good punch line for this one.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm on a different page
> 
> This is what I consider a stripe:
> 
> ...


While that makes logical sense, it feels like it makes it harder to shop around for deals on belts (for the instructor/school).


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> While that makes logical sense, it feels like it makes it harder to shop around for deals on belts (for the instructor/school).



Those belts are a bit more expensive, but I use them, as well. I think students get more excited about receiving a new belt than a piece of tape. For me, it’s a small investment in students’ happiness. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> Those belts are a bit more expensive, but I use them, as well. I think students get more excited about receiving a new belt than a piece of tape. For me, it’s a small investment in students’ happiness.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was thinking more just another belt color. I never did the stripe thing (either type), so I'm used to the getting a new belt. I've considered stripes, but I'm not sure what purpose they'd serve. I was more looking in the direction of a purple belt between red and blue (see what I did there?).


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## skribs (Apr 21, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> Those belts are a bit more expensive, but I use them, as well. I think students get more excited about receiving a new belt than a piece of tape. For me, it’s a small investment in students’ happiness.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The school I was at as a kid switched from tape stripes to stitched stripes when I was around purple belt.

I actually kind of like the tape stripe.  It's like it adds character and helps make the belt "mine".


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> The school I was at as a kid switched from tape stripes to stitched stripes when I was around purple belt.
> 
> I actually kind of like the tape stripe.  It's like it adds character and helps make the belt "mine".


I thought the icky sweatiness was what made the belt "mine".


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> The school I was at as a kid switched from tape stripes to stitched stripes when I was around purple belt.
> 
> I actually kind of like the tape stripe.  It's like it adds character and helps make the belt "mine".


In seriousness, I like the casualness and lack of durability of the tape stripe. It seems to imply you're not supposed to keep that belt forever.


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## pdg (Apr 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I was thinking more just another belt color. I never did the stripe thing (either type), so I'm used to the getting a new belt. I've considered stripes, but I'm not sure what purpose they'd serve. I was more looking in the direction of a purple belt between red and blue (see what I did there?).



Another set of intermediate solid colours would serve the same purpose of rank identification, if you can find enough suitable colours.

But - in our itf tkd at least - the colours and order thereof have a progressive meaning attached to them, which would be disrupted by additional colours.


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## mrt2 (Apr 21, 2018)

I am agnostic on the tape stripes vs. new belt for each promotion thing.  My former style of Tang Soo Do only had White, Orange, Green, and Red belts for Gup levels.  So they used tape stripes on both Green and Red Belts.  It was fine.  To complicate matters, my former dojang required students to add colored fabric to the collars of their uniforms to match the colored belt once they made green belt.  This worked fine but practically speaking, it meant replacing your uniform when you got promoted from green to red belt.  But as for the belt at least, you basically got to wear both the green and the red belts for 9 months to a year each, so it really became yours.  

But I just looked up my former school and apparently, Tang Soo Do has changed a bit since I have been gone, as they have now added yellow, blue, brown and purple colored belts.  Way too confusing, IMO.  I am sure the students adjust quickly, but what a cacaphony of colors.  

My current TKD school has only white, yellow, green, purple and brown belts, but has one rank in between each colored belt promotion, represented by a colored belt with a black stripe through the middle of the length of the belt.  So  a new belt for each promotion, but only only 5 colored belt colors rather than the  TSD uses.


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## JR 137 (Apr 21, 2018)

@skribs @pdg 
I just realized something... I thought we were in the cost of black belt test thread where the OP was talking about paying for tests between dan ranks.  It was something like he needed 3-4 stripe tests (like electrical tape stripes) at about $100 each before he could test for the next dan rank, which was $600.

Somehow I’m merging threads here.  Sorry for the confusion 

Now disregarding my posts in this thread...

My previous school used the same belt system in kyu ranks.  For the sake of consistency, I’ll refer to the belt style pictured as a “stripe”...

10th kyu - solid white
9th - white with blue stripe
8th - solid blue
7th - blue with yellow stripe
6th - solid yellow 
5th - yellow with green stripe 
4th - solid green 
3rd - green with brown stripe
2nd - solid brown 
1st - brown with black stripe 

Each kyu was a full rank with its own syllabus and test.  Each test costed around $50 (I trained there a long time ago, so cost could be off).  During all of those ranks, we had 2 “stripe tests” where we did what I described previously and got a strip of electrical tape on our belt each time.

My current organization uses the same solid color order, but instead of getting a new belt with a “stripe,” we get a patch we sew on our belt.  Here’s my 3rd kyu belt...




I was just promoted to 2nd kyu, which is a solid brown belt.  When I’m promoted to 1st kyu, I’ll sew a patch like the one above on the brown belt I’m currently wearing.

I like the patch system better.  I get to keep the same belt for longer and I think it looks cooler somehow.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> @skribs @pdg
> I just realized something... I thought we were in the cost of black belt test thread where the OP was talking about paying for tests between dan ranks.  It was something like he needed 3-4 stripe tests (like electrical tape stripes) at about $100 each before he could test for the next dan rank, which was $600.
> 
> Somehow I’m merging threads here.  Sorry for the confusion
> ...


Worn out belts always look cooler. There's nothing dorkier than a brand new belt that's pointed out to the sides like so much pig iron. I think that's on purpose, to keep us from being too proud of our new belt.


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## pdg (Apr 21, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Somehow I’m merging threads here. Sorry for the confusion



Yeah, you're not alone


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## mrt2 (Apr 21, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I appreciate the clarification.
> 
> It may be that your school is perfectly fine.  Obviously I am not there to see what is going on and make some kind of judgement on it.
> 
> ...



1. I trained as a teenager for 3 years in a similar, Korean martial art.  A lot of my perspective is informed by those 3 years of training 3 decades ago.

2. I think some of the issue might be with how my current school breaks up the various parts of TKD, and perhaps, students not putting in enough time to really master everything.  In the old days, the classes were 2 hours, and each class pretty much covered everything from conditioning drills, to punches, blocks, kicks, forms and sparring.  My current school's classes are only 1 hour, and beginner classes are only 45 minutes.  When you have a full 2 hours for class, you have a lot more time to cover the basics than you do when you only have 45 minutes to an hour.  Multiply that out and the 3 times a week student who used to put 6 hours a week, is maybe now only putting in 3 hours a week, plus, maybe a half hour or an hour at home on off days.  The situation is worse for the twice a week student, who maybe even falls off to less than twice a week for whatever reason.  And maybe, it only gets worse the further such a student progresses.  At that point, unless the student puts in a lot of time on his own, he is only getting a few minutes of basic punches, kicks, and beginner forms per week, whereas to maintain proficiency, I suspect much more time is needed.

And, sparring is its own class.  Which, in some ways is better than how we did things back in the day because instead of doing 5 or 10 minutes of sparring, the master devotes an entire class to sparring, and sparring related drills.  If you attend sparring classes, I can see where you can actually get more proficient doing it this way.  Great if you do them, but if you don't attend those classes regularly, you might never get proficient at sparring.

Additionally, my current school breaks down classes into general classes, and advanced classes.  Presumably, the advanced classes offer more opportunity to work on more advanced techniques, which remedies a problem I had back in my old TSD days, which was, as my time to train got more limited, I struggled to find time to train in more advanced techniques, though my beginner and intermediate stuff was rock solid due to the shear repetition.  On the other hand, the advanced training isn't any good if you allow your basic techniques to decay.

So there are several problems I see, not with everyone, but with some people.  One is children, but I take that with a grain of salt since I view children's martial arts as a kind of necessary evil to finance a facility for a relatively small number of adults.  I have seen the master work with children and I think he gets what he can from them.  But even with adults, there are folks who don't seem to have mastered the basics, and that is a problem in my book.

 This is kind of a long winded way of saying I think some folks don't put enough time in training.  Shame on my school if they promote people who are barely proficient with basic stuff to higher belts because they didn't put enough time training.  It might have been possible to improve on 2 to 3 classes a day when the classes covered everything, but maybe as an advanced belt, who only practices twice a week, or even less for an hour or less a class, not enough time to cover everything in the curriculum every class..


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## pdg (Apr 21, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> maybe a half hour or an hour at home on off days



I'd be surprised if the majority manage to do as much as half an hour of "homework" per week tbh.

I think it's a difficult situation, you can't force people to practice or study because most would leave. 

Then, you also can't fail (or refuse to test) mediocre people, because they'd leave.

If you set your standards very high chances are you wouldn't cover costs in most instances (as the undermotivated and underachievers leave), then you'd lose everyone - good and bad - because you'd have to close.

So yes, schools might be to blame for promoting people who don't really fully deserve it, but I'd rather have that and still have a school to attend than the alternative of standards so high that there's nowhere to train.


Another way to look at it is that it's a personal journey, if you're better than you were then why not advance?


Case study: a woman I know...

During chatting while our respective kids were doing their junior session I had suggested she give kickboxing a try - she never wanted to because she didn't think she'd meet the standard.

She watched a session in the end, and while there were better practitioners there were the not so good ones - after seeing that her opinion changed...

Now, she's getting a lot out of it personally - she's the first to admit she's not exactly a model of perfection, but is that always really the point?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 21, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm on a different page
> 
> This is what I consider a stripe:
> 
> ...



This and the tape stripe are both stripes.
The advantage of the tape stripe is that it's cheaper. Given the huge amount of money our program makes that's a factor. And, too, the tape stripe is in keeping with the way stripes are added to black belts.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 21, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'd be surprised if the majority manage to do as much as half an hour of "homework" per week tbh.



Depends on how interested they are in learning. Those who want to learn will find the time. Those who don't are practicing what I call "WallMart TKD" and I encourage them to keep their receipts in case they need to return it.



> I think it's a difficult situation, you can't force people to practice or study because most would leave.



Why is that a problem? If they don't want to learn, do you really want them in your program?



> Then, you also can't fail (or refuse to test) mediocre people, because they'd leave.



Sure you can. We do it all the time. If they don't meet the standard, they wait until they do. Or till they quit. If all they want is a belt, I'll refer them to google, where they can easily find a place to purchase both a belt and a Really Awesome Certificate.



> If you set your standards very high chances are you wouldn't cover costs in most instances (as the undermotivated and underachievers leave), then you'd lose everyone - good and bad - because you'd have to close.



And this is one reason why I really prefer our non-commercial program.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> In seriousness, I like the casualness and lack of durability of the tape stripe. It seems to imply you're not supposed to keep that belt forever.



They're actually pretty durable. At the higher geup ranks, our students will commonly wear their belts for a year or more. And the tape holds up fine.


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## skribs (Apr 21, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Why is that a problem? If they don't want to learn, do you really want them in your program?



A lot of our students are there because there parents want them to learn discipline and respect.  They're not there because they want to learn.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> A lot of our students are there because there parents want them to learn discipline and respect.  They're not there because they want to learn.



If the parents can't teach them that at home, you're not going to manage it either.


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## skribs (Apr 21, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> If the parents can't teach them that at home, you're not going to manage it either.



That flies in the face of plenty of what I've seen.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> A lot of our students are there because there parents want them to learn discipline and respect.  They're not there because they want to learn.


They won’t learn as much discipline from getting a rank as from having to work to earn one.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> If the parents can't teach them that at home, you're not going to manage it either.


Some parents don’t know how to require patient practice at something they (the kids) don’t want to do right that moment. Many MA instructors (and sport coaches) are adept at that.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Some parents don’t know how to require patient practice at something they (the kids) don’t want to do right that moment. Many MA instructors (and sport coaches) are adept at that.



I think you can build on the basics they've learned at home. But you can't possibly teach them respect and discipline if they haven't already learned it at home. You don't have the time with them, for one thing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think you can build on the basics they've learned at home. But you can't possibly teach them respect and discipline if they haven't already learned it at home. You don't have the time with them, for one thing.


I can see your point. I think most (after age 8 - the youngest I taught) have been introduced to the concepts at school, of not at home. But many haven’t had it reinforced well beyond that.


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 21, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think you can build on the basics they've learned at home. But you can't possibly teach them respect and discipline if they haven't already learned it at home. You don't have the time with them, for one thing.



We’ll, you certainly won’t have the time with them if you cause them to quit. The longer I can keep a student, the more opportunity I have to have a positive impact on the student. 

Since I own a commercial school, I obviously benefit financially from keeping the student. However, I can honestly say that that is secondary. The instructors that I choose to associate with are sincere in that regard, too. As a school teacher, as well that holds true. I didn’t become a teacher or MA instructor to get rich, but I do earn a living from teaching. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> We’ll, you certainly won’t have the time with them if you cause them to quit. The longer I can keep a student, the more opportunity I have to have a positive impact on the student.
> 
> Since I own a commercial school, I obviously benefit financially from keeping the student. However, I can honestly say that that is secondary. The instructors that I choose to associate with are sincere in that regard, too. As a school teacher, as well that holds true. I didn’t become a teacher or MA instructor to get rich, but I do earn a living from teaching.
> 
> ...


I think something we sometimes forget is that a commercial school often has more students, which actually can make it a bit easier to be patient, and absorbs some issues better. If I have 3 students in a class, one who is hard to deal with makes the class a pain. When I was teaching classes with 20 kids in them, it was much easier to manage the difficult ones (including the fact that there were enough other students that nobody had to be stuck with them for the entire class).


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## Flying Crane (Apr 22, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think you can build on the basics they've learned at home. But you can't possibly teach them respect and discipline if they haven't already learned it at home. You don't have the time with them, for one thing.


And I am still trying to understand how this became the responsibility of the martial arts instructor.

It’s just weird.


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## JR 137 (Apr 22, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> And I am still trying to understand how this became the responsibility of the martial arts instructor.
> 
> It’s just weird.


I’m a school teacher. They expect the same thing from me.  Somehow I’m supposed to be the one who motivates them to study, gets them to do their homework, and keeps them under control and non-disruptive in class.  The parents somehow have no obligations in this regard.  A kid fails, it’s the teacher’s fault.  Gets in trouble, obviously the teacher doesn’t know how to manage a classroom.  The kid doesn’t do his work, the teacher didn’t make it fun enough.

It’s all a load of crap.  Yes, I have responsibilities and ways of controlling some things.  I actually had a parent tell me “you’re supposed to make sure he brings all his books home; that’s why it’s not getting done!”  I smiled and replied “he’s in 8th grade.  He knows he’s supposed to write his assignments in his agenda and open up and read it when he’s packing up to leave.  I even remind them all to do this at dismissal every day. I’m not packing 40 kids’ bags at the end of the day.”  Then I get “the books are too heavy to carry.”

It’s all my fault for not packing each bag and carrying it to the car.  I guess I’m a horrible teacher.

Parents seem to forget to enforce the rules.  I guess it’s too hard to listen to their kids complaining while they’re being punished.  I had a parent tell me “I don’t know what to do anymore.  He just won’t listen to me.  All he does is play his Xbox instead of doing his homework.”  I said “how about taking the Xbox away?”  I guess that would be too harsh or too too torturous for her to deal with.  Talking it out, yelling, and threats don’t work.  Action works, as does consistency.  I’m not talking about hitting; I’ve never hit my kids and nor will I; I’m talking about consequences such as taking away the video games for a week if they don’t get their work done; no sports if they’re getting in trouble in school; that sort of thing.  Kids know exactly where the line is and what they can and can’t get away with. They can spot an empty threat a mile away.  They know when you say a week, and it really means an hour.  They’re far smarter than we give them credit for.  

Rant over.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> And I am still trying to understand how this became the responsibility of the martial arts instructor.
> 
> It’s just weird.


Parents don't get training, so they look to folks with experience with a lot of kids (coaches, teachers, etc.) for help. MA instructors who teach kids fall into that category for parents, anyway. Add to that the fact that MA has long been marketed as "character building" for kids, and it's not so unreasonable for parents to expect.


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## Michele123 (Apr 22, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> And I am still trying to understand how this became the responsibility of the martial arts instructor.
> 
> It’s just weird.



As a parent who enrolled her daughter, partially in the hopes that it helps with self-discipline I can try to share my thoughts. 

First, we absolutely work on disciple at home. However, sometimes kids just don’t think what mom & dad say is true or applies outside of the home. It is sooooo nice to have what we say reinforced at Taekwondo. It really makes a difference to have someone outside of mom & dad saying the same thing. 

Second, and I don’t know if this makes a difference, but it is self-disciple that I’m hoping martial arts helps to instill in my children. Not regular discipline. I hope my children learn to commit to something, to work hard at home (instead of playing all the time), and see the fruits of their labor. I want them to learn to adapt to different social settings (military style at martial arts, family style at home, school at school). I think that martial arts classes can play a role in this. 

Third, my oldest is likely on the autism spectrum. The psychiatrist we visited said she had lots of red flags but doesn’t like to diagnose this young because if we work hard on it she may be able to learn skills earlier enough to keep her away from being classified as on the spectrum. We will need to go back when my daughter is 7-8 for another evaluation and a final diagnosis. I hope that martial arts can help her develop some of those skills (that we again are also working on at home).

My daughter has been in Taekwondo for almost six months now. I’ve seen a *huge* improvement in her impulsivity. Again we were working on it at home too, but I think the MA atmosphere really has helped a lot too. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Flying Crane (Apr 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Parents don't get training, so they look to folks with experience with a lot of kids (coaches, teachers, etc.) for help. MA instructors who teach kids fall into that category for parents, anyway. Add to that the fact that MA has long been marketed as "character building" for kids, and it's not so unreasonable for parents to expect.


Yeah, it’s nonsense marketing.  I doubt that more than a small fraction of instructors would even know how to approach it, or have had any kind of appropriate training.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, it’s nonsense marketing.  I doubt that more than a small fraction of instructors would even know how to approach it, or have had any kind of appropriate training.


I don't think it's nonsense. The way many (most, at least in my experience) MA schools are run with kids tends to focus on getting them doing things in an organized manner, staying on a task for a while, taking instruction and acting with the class rather than independently, etc. All of that is good practice for developing the habit of discipline and focus. There's good research in the last couple of decades (probably some before that) that indicates these things are habit-based skills that we can develop. Impulse control is a large part of it. As a child resists the impulse to get off-task, they are actually getting better at focus.

As I said before, many of the same benefits can be found from organized sports practice, too.


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## JR 137 (Apr 22, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, it’s nonsense marketing.  I doubt that more than a small fraction of instructors would even know how to approach it, or have had any kind of appropriate training.


My former teacher did a great job with the kids in this regard.  I went to his dojo about a month or two ago for a seminar and to catch up with him and a few others.  It’s been over 15 years since I’ve seen him.  This sums it all up... once I walked in and even before I put my stuff down, a line of kids (8ish to 15ish) greeted me by saying “Hi.  I’m x, what’s your name?  Welcome to our dojo.”  I honestly forgot about that.  I heard my former sensei say to a few kids who didn’t immediately do it “Excuse me x, when you see someone come in that you don’t know, what are you supposed to do?”

He’s also got a “My best list.”  They’ve got to check off things on it such as homework and household chores, the parents sign off on behavior, and teachers sign off on it too.  Kids have been held back from promotion and even suspended from training due to their sheets.

I’m sure there’s others out there that do this too, but I haven’t come across anyone personally.  The parents are on board.  Many parents have decided not to join because of it.  He just wishes them well if they don’t.


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## mrt2 (Apr 22, 2018)

I think the point isn't whether martial arts can't be beneficial to kids.  The point is, in many programs, the kids wear the same belts as the adults, which in the minds of some, cheapens the achievement of any given rank.  Because the truth is, kids come into martial arts with a wide variety of abilities and at different developmental levels.  And, at almost every level from white belt, to green belt all the way up to high brown, an 8 or 10 year old won't be at the same level as a person of the same rank who is 15 or older.  

At my dojang, there are kids only classes which most of the kids attend, but kids are also allowed to attend adult classes, which are labeled "family" classes.  I will be honest.  I don't mind training with teenagers.  Some of the teenagers at my school remind me a little of me when I was 15 or 16. ,But I don't like training with kids younger than 12.  It makes me feel ridiculous, especially at this juncture where I am junior to almost everyone.   I look forward to the day when I can attend more of the advanced classes where the kids are either working at a much higher level, are older than 12, or most likely both.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 22, 2018)

pdg said:


> I think it's a difficult situation, you can't force people to practice or study because most would leave.
> 
> Then, you also can't fail (or refuse to test) mediocre people, because they'd leave.
> 
> ...


I think a lot depends on the expectations that you give your students.

In BJJ, belt promotions are typically 2-3 years apart. That's an average - ranks are issued based on ability not a timetable*. Talented students who put in lots of extra study will typically progress faster. Students who are less talented or less consistently hard working will progress slower. I've met plenty of people who were stuck at a given rank for 6+ years.

Despite this, there are plenty of commercially successful BJJ schools. That would seem to indicate that it is possible to maintain high promotions standards and still retain students. I can't imagine that such an approach wouldn't be workable for other arts.

*(This applies up to black belt. Further promotions after black belt are based on years in service practicing, teaching, and contributing to the art.)


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> My former teacher did a great job with the kids in this regard.  I went to his dojo about a month or two ago for a seminar and to catch up with him and a few others.  It’s been over 15 years since I’ve seen him.  This sums it all up... once I walked in and even before I put my stuff down, a line of kids (8ish to 15ish) greeted me by saying “Hi.  I’m x, what’s your name?  Welcome to our dojo.”  I honestly forgot about that.  I heard my former sensei say to a few kids who didn’t immediately do it “Excuse me x, when you see someone come in that you don’t know, what are you supposed to do?”
> 
> He’s also got a “My best list.”  They’ve got to check off things on it such as homework and household chores, the parents sign off on behavior, and teachers sign off on it too.  Kids have been held back from promotion and even suspended from training due to their sheets.
> 
> I’m sure there’s others out there that do this too, but I haven’t come across anyone personally.  The parents are on board.  Many parents have decided not to join because of it.  He just wishes them well if they don’t.


Hmm...now that's an approach to teaching kids I could sink my teeth into. If I ever get to a point where I can offer kids' classes, I'd love to chat some about what he does and how he handles it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> I think the point isn't whether martial arts can't be beneficial to kids.  The point is, in many programs, the kids wear the same belts as the adults, which in the minds of some, cheapens the achievement of any given rank.  Because the truth is, kids come into martial arts with a wide variety of abilities and at different developmental levels.  And, at almost every level from white belt, to green belt all the way up to high brown, an 8 or 10 year old won't be at the same level as a person of the same rank who is 15 or older.
> 
> At my dojang, there are kids only classes which most of the kids attend, but kids are also allowed to attend adult classes, which are labeled "family" classes.  I will be honest.  I don't mind training with teenagers.  Some of the teenagers at my school remind me a little of me when I was 15 or 16. ,But I don't like training with kids younger than 12.  It makes me feel ridiculous, especially at this juncture where I am junior to almost everyone.   I look forward to the day when I can attend more of the advanced classes where the kids are either working at a much higher level, are older than 12, or most likely both.


I don't like training with kids, either. And I don't like using the same rank for kids as for adults; though I've heard decent arguments for doing so, I still don't agree. I feel like there should be some differentiation. In the NGAA, kids don't wear the chest patches, so everyone in the school can easily tell the difference. On the nafuda, they are listed separately. I'm okay with that. 

I'd probably just use the belts with white stripes on them.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 22, 2018)

Michele123 said:


> As a parent who enrolled her daughter, partially in the hopes that it helps with self-discipline I can try to share my thoughts.
> 
> First, we absolutely work on disciple at home. However, sometimes kids just don’t think what mom & dad say is true or applies outside of the home. It is sooooo nice to have what we say reinforced at Taekwondo. It really makes a difference to have someone outside of mom & dad saying the same thing.
> 
> ...


I believe regular participation in the activity itself can help build the positive traits in the student, but it should absolutely not be a responsibility of th instructor to build that in a young student.


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## JR 137 (Apr 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I don't like training with kids, either. And I don't like using the same rank for kids as for adults; though I've heard decent arguments for doing so, I still don't agree. I feel like there should be some differentiation. In the NGAA, kids don't wear the chest patches, so everyone in the school can easily tell the difference. On the nafuda, they are listed separately. I'm okay with that.
> 
> I'd probably just use the belts with white stripes on them.


If I ever ran my own organization, I’d have kids wear a gray belt instead of a black belt in any form - stripe, stickers, merit badges or anything else on it.  I know it’s just a belt, but still...


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## JR 137 (Apr 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Hmm...now that's an approach to teaching kids I could sink my teeth into. If I ever get to a point where I can offer kids' classes, I'd love to chat some about what he does and how he handles it.


I don’t know the specifics of it, as I was 19 when I joined.  I know the sheet changes as the get older.  For the youngest ones, it had stuff like brushed my teeth, made my bed, helped clean up, etc.  As they got older it had the teacher’s component and behavior in school in it.

If you get serious about it, I can get copies of it and/or put you in contact with him.  I don’t think he’d mind at all.


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## JR 137 (Apr 22, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> I think the point isn't whether martial arts can't be beneficial to kids.  The point is, in many programs, the kids wear the same belts as the adults, which in the minds of some, cheapens the achievement of any given rank.  Because the truth is, kids come into martial arts with a wide variety of abilities and at different developmental levels.  And, at almost every level from white belt, to green belt all the way up to high brown, an 8 or 10 year old won't be at the same level as a person of the same rank who is 15 or older.
> 
> At my dojang, there are kids only classes which most of the kids attend, but kids are also allowed to attend adult classes, which are labeled "family" classes.  I will be honest.  I don't mind training with teenagers.  Some of the teenagers at my school remind me a little of me when I was 15 or 16. ,But I don't like training with kids younger than 12.  It makes me feel ridiculous, especially at this juncture where I am junior to almost everyone.   I look forward to the day when I can attend more of the advanced classes where the kids are either working at a much higher level, are older than 12, or most likely both.


My teacher and I discussed a “family class” where parents who train line up with their children who train and take class together.  My teacher has wanted to do it for quite a while, but we don’t have the numbers.

Kids aren’t allowed in adult classes, and adults aren’t allowed in kids’ classes in our school.  If there’s an adult in a kids’ class, that adult is helping teach.  Our kids vs adults line is around 15 or so.  Some kids younger than that are allowed into adult classes, but it’s solely up to the CI’s discretion.  The ones he allows are the kids who are higher ranked and are capable of working out with the adults without being a distraction.  And they’re typically a year or so away from the age.  There’s about 3 kids presently who are allowed.  They’re too physically and karate-ly advanced for the kids’ classes and they’re fully capable of doing the material; we just have to take it easy on them during sparring.

If kids weren’t separated from the adults, I wouldn’t train there.  Or at least I wouldn’t show up when I knew they were coming.  I’m all for kids in the MA, but not to the detriment of the adults.  Just like it wouldn’t be fair to load up the kids’ classes with adults and expect the kids to keep up in a class that’s supposed to be for them in the first place.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> If I ever ran my own organization, I’d have kids wear a gray belt instead of a black belt in any form - stripe, stickers, merit badges or anything else on it.  I know it’s just a belt, but still...


In the NGAA, they don't even have advanced belts for kids. Once kids pass youth green belt (yellow-blue-green), their only next step is adult yellow. That originated when kids had to be 13+ to start, so that made sense - they'd be 15 or 16 by the time they got to youth green. They often start younger now, which creates a problem with a 10-year-old wearing an adult rank (which implies they can do the techniques on an adult). I think I'd want more belts for teens/tweens, and an age and/or size cutoff for when they convert to adult ranks. If I ever added smaller kids, I'd have to figure out how to fit them into the whole scheme.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I don’t know the specifics of it, as I was 19 when I joined.  I know the sheet changes as the get older.  For the youngest ones, it had stuff like brushed my teeth, made my bed, helped clean up, etc.  As they got older it had the teacher’s component and behavior in school in it.
> 
> If you get serious about it, I can get copies of it and/or put you in contact with him.  I don’t think he’d mind at all.


I appreciate that offer. I'll take you up on it if I ever take that step.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> My former teacher did a great job with the kids in this regard.  I went to his dojo about a month or two ago for a seminar and to catch up with him and a few others.  It’s been over 15 years since I’ve seen him.  This sums it all up... once I walked in and even before I put my stuff down, a line of kids (8ish to 15ish) greeted me by saying “Hi.  I’m x, what’s your name?  Welcome to our dojo.”  I honestly forgot about that.  I heard my former sensei say to a few kids who didn’t immediately do it “Excuse me x, when you see someone come in that you don’t know, what are you supposed to do?”
> 
> He’s also got a “My best list.”  They’ve got to check off things on it such as homework and household chores, the parents sign off on behavior, and teachers sign off on it too.  Kids have been held back from promotion and even suspended from training due to their sheets.
> 
> I’m sure there’s others out there that do this too, but I haven’t come across anyone personally.  The parents are on board.  Many parents have decided not to join because of it.  He just wishes them well if they don’t.


There are always exceptions.

But there is a myth that the martial arts teacher is also infused with wisdom that he can share with a student to put him on a better path, somehow.  IF a teacher has that wisdom, it does not come simply from being a martial artist.  It comes from other talents and insights, and training and education that he may have received.  For every teacher who is good at it, I bet there are 50 who are bad at it and some of them might be downright creepy about it.

That’s my take on it, anyways.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> There are always exceptions.
> 
> But there is a myth that the martial arts teacher is also infused with wisdom that he can share with a student to put him on a better path, somehow.  IF a teacher has that wisdom, it does not come simply from being a martial artist.  It comes from other talents and insights, and training and education that he may have received.  For every teacher who is good at it, I bet there are 50 who are bad at it and some of them might be downright creepy about it.
> 
> That’s my take on it, anyways.


Agreed. This goes back to the same kind of mythology that leads to considering style-founders (and, therefor, the style) as infallible.


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## mrt2 (Apr 23, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> There are always exceptions.
> 
> But there is a myth that the martial arts teacher is also infused with wisdom that he can share with a student to put him on a better path, somehow.  IF a teacher has that wisdom, it does not come simply from being a martial artist.  It comes from other talents and insights, and training and education that he may have received.  For every teacher who is good at it, I bet there are 50 who are bad at it and some of them might be downright creepy about it.
> 
> That’s my take on it, anyways.


Yup.  It comes from popular culture, but martial arts studios have promoted it themselves.  Go take a look at any commercial martial arts school website and they will make claims that if you enroll your kid, they will learn discipline, prepare your child to succeed in school and in life,  develop self confidence, stand up to bullies, even stay away from drugs.

It isn't all bull$hit.  Training in martial arts can do all those things, but the motivation has to come from within.  So if a parent takes a kid who isn't ready to learn to a martial arts program, it may not work.  When I trained in martial arts as a teenager, it was mostly me, and almost none of my parents.  And I know I paid for most of my martial arts training myself .


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## Flying Crane (Apr 23, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> Yup.  It comes from popular culture, but martial arts studios have promoted it themselves.  Go take a look at any commercial martial arts school website and they will make claims that if you enroll your kid, they will learn discipline, prepare your child to succeed in school and in life,  develop self confidence, even stay away from drugs.
> 
> It isn't all bull$hit.  Training in martial arts can do all those things, but the motivation has to come from within.  So if a parent takes a kid who isn't ready to learn to a martial arts program, it may not work.  When I trained in martial arts as a teenager, it was mostly me, and almost none of my parents.  And I know I paid for most of my martial arts training myself .


Oh I know it.  In their advertising they always make claims about learning respect and discipline and whatnot.  Well as I said in an earlier post, i believe that regular participation in the martial arts can build those qualities, but it isn’t necessarily the teacher who is responsible for it.  Rather, the realization that it takes dedication and hard work in order to progress, and then embracing that reality and really doing it, can certainly build self-discipline.  And training in close proximity with people, learning to trust each other while practicing combative techniques on each other, can go a long way to building respect for others and acting in a way to earn respect from your training partners and classmates.  If you cannot do that, you will not last long in the training.

But that is a product of the training itself, not necessarily anything that the teacher is specifically teaching.

And like you, my early training which started at age 13 was all from my own motivation.  I carried a newspaper route and paid for classes myself and I put in the work, and at that time my parents were not supportive of it.


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## mrt2 (Apr 23, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh I know it.  In their advertising they always make claims about learning respect and discipline and whatnot.  Well as I said in an earlier post, i believe that regular participation in the martial arts can build those qualities, but it isn’t necessarily the teacher who is responsible for it.  Rather, the realization that it takes dedication and hard work in order to progress, and then embracing that reality and really doing it, can certainly build self-discipline.  And training in close proximity with people, learning to trust each other while practicing combative techniques on each other, can go a long way to building respect for others and acting in a way to earn respect from your training partners and classmates.  If you cannot do that, you will not last long in the training.
> 
> But that is a product of the training itself, not necessarily anything that the teacher is specifically teaching.
> 
> And like you, my early training which started at age 13 was all from my own motivation.  I carried a newspaper route and paid for classes myself and I put in the work, and at that time my parents were not supportive of it.


For my first two years, I paid for my training with money from a paper route, and from other money I had saved up.  Don't remember how I financed the last year of my training.  At that point, I might have gotten some help from my parents, or maybe it was from summer jobs.  

My parents allowed me to enroll, and carpooled with another kid's parents, but I don't remember either of my parents taking much of an interest in my progress, beyond the physical transformation that took place over the course of my first year of training.  FWIW, I actually think it is kind of nice that some parents now join TKD and train with their kids.  But given how human nature works, I can see this backfiring as often as it works.  I think the thing I like about training in martial arts as a teenager was, it was my thing.  Don't know how I would have felt to see my Mom or Dad suit up to train with me.  Actually the thought makes me chuckle.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 23, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> For my first two years, I paid for my training with money from a paper route, and from other money I had saved up.  Don't remember how I financed the last year of my training.  At that point, I might have gotten some help from my parents, or maybe it was from summer jobs.
> 
> My parents allowed me to enroll, and carpooled with another kid's parents, but I don't remember either of my parents taking much of an interest in my progress, beyond the physical transformation that took place over the course of my first year of training.  FWIW, I actually think it is kind of nice that some parents now join TKD and train with their kids.  But given how human nature works, I can see this backfiring as often as it works.  I think the thing I like about training in martial arts as a teenager was, it was my thing.  Don't know how I would have felt to see my Mom or Dad suit up to train with me.  Actually the thought makes me chuckle.


You sound like my mirror image .  It must be a Wisconsin thing...

My parents allowed me to enroll, but were not going to directly support it because they thought it was just learning to fight, and they didn’t see the value in that.  Luckily the school was within walking distance, because they were not going to commit to driving me either.  They were willing to drive me to the next town over for cello lessons, but not martial arts lessons.

Over time they came to recognize the value in it, and I didn’t become a hooligan from it so they realize that their initial assessment was wrong. But at the time, I was on my own with it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh I know it.  In their advertising they always make claims about learning respect and discipline and whatnot.  Well as I said in an earlier post, i believe that regular participation in the martial arts can build those qualities, but it isn’t necessarily the teacher who is responsible for it.  Rather, the realization that it takes dedication and hard work in order to progress, and then embracing that reality and really doing it, can certainly build self-discipline.  And training in close proximity with people, learning to trust each other while practicing combative techniques on each other, can go a long way to building respect for others and acting in a way to earn respect from your training partners and classmates.  If you cannot do that, you will not last long in the training.
> 
> But that is a product of the training itself, not necessarily anything that the teacher is specifically teaching.
> 
> And like you, my early training which started at age 13 was all from my own motivation.  I carried a newspaper route and paid for classes myself and I put in the work, and at that time my parents were not supportive of it.


Agreed. That's why I said earlier that organized sports can deliver a lot of the same benefits.

Of course, there are some coaches/instructors/teachers in both areas who excel at helping build those traits, but that - again - is not the martial art, but the specific instructor.


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## JR 137 (Apr 24, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. That's why I said earlier that organized sports can deliver a lot of the same benefits.
> 
> Of course, there are some coaches/instructors/teachers in both areas who excel at helping build those traits, but that - again - is not the martial art, but the specific instructor.


MA likes to promote the whole self discipline, better grades, etc. stuff; but truth be told, all sports can make that claim IMO.  I don’t think the MA/sport give the kid that, I think it’s the teacher/coach who brings it out.  Many coaches won’t let a kid play if they’re not doing the right thing - not paying attention, fooling around, not trying, etc.  Then there’s the self confidence portion of playing the best you can against better/more skilled players/teams, not backing down, moving on from setbacks, etc.  Sure, some coaches are overly competitive and don’t enforce the rules,  it most genuinely do.

As far as grades are concerned, look at college campuses.  Student-athletes as a whole have a higher gpa than the non-athletes average.   It sure about every single college, but every college I’ve worked at.


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## Ryan_ (Apr 25, 2018)

We never had any marks on our belts while testing in Choi Kwang Do. Brown belt senior (Brown with black stripe through it) straight to black (with gold tag to represent first dan) for me


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## mrt2 (Apr 25, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> *MA likes to promote the whole self discipline, better grades, etc. stuff; but truth be told, all sports can make that claim IMO.  I* don’t think the MA/sport give the kid that, I think it’s the teacher/coach who brings it out.  Many coaches won’t let a kid play if they’re not doing the right thing - not paying attention, fooling around, not trying, etc.  Then there’s the self confidence portion of playing the best you can against better/more skilled players/teams, not backing down, moving on from setbacks, etc.  Sure, some coaches are overly competitive and don’t enforce the rules,  it most genuinely do.
> 
> As far as grades are concerned, look at college campuses.  Student-athletes as a whole have a higher gpa than the non-athletes average.   It sure about every single college, but every college I’ve worked at.



If I were pitching martial arts to a parent over, say, a team sport, I would put it this way.  It doesn't matter if you are very athletic, or not very athletic.  In TKD/Karate/Judo or whatever, nobody sits on the bench, and nobody is stuck out in right field.  In martial arts, everybody is expected to train to the best of his, or her ability.


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## JR 137 (Apr 25, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> If I were pitching martial arts to a parent over, say, a team sport, I would put it this way.  It doesn't matter if you are very athletic, or not very athletic.  In TKD/Karate/Judo or whatever, nobody sits on the bench, and nobody is stuck out in right field.  In martial arts, everybody is expected to train to the best of his, or her ability.


Absolutely.  Everyone gets equal playing time, no one gets cut for not being good enough, everyone progresses at their own pace.  The most important things are to work hard, try your best, and act respectfully.

Yes there’s sport MA and competition, but that’s not required.


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