# Anti-Grappling Techniques...



## Kababayan (May 7, 2017)

Hello everyone,
I posted this in one of the other threads also, I hope that the mods don't mind. This is my first post here and I am hoping that some of you can help me out with some research. I haven't been on one of these types of forums for years, as back then most of the posts were people just bad-mouthing other martial artists. I am hoping to have a better experience here.  So that I don't drag out explanation before getting to the question, I'll ask it first and then give explanation. I am trying to put together a list of grappling counters to be used after a takedown has happened. *What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened?* Most of what I have seen is about sprawling and not be taken down, but I am looking for the best way to beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" contest.

I have a list of what I've seen so far and would like to add to it. I have been training in various martial arts for 35 years, mostly in more traditional arts. About ten years ago I began training in various "reality based self defense" to fill in the self defense gaps that my traditional arts have.  I found Krav Maga about four years ago. I recently got my Black Belt in Krav, and as much as I love it, most of the grappling defense techniques are effective against basic grapplers. I am looking for something that will work even with very experienced grapplers. I know that the easiest response would be to learn to grapple better but, as a stand up fighter, I don't want to rely on having to out grapple an experienced grappler. Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore. I do have some grappling experience (about a year at Gracies and 10th Planet combined) so I do know the terminology and moves. I am more focusing on hitting them with something they don't expect. Any help is greatly appreciated.  Here is what I have collected so far.  Three of the four I saw occur during "friendly" Jiu Jitsu matches (not street fights.)  The Vunak bite (kina mutay) was taught to me when I trained with Paul and some of his students. 

- When a triangle choke was attempted: Before the choke was cinched in the person in the choke bit the inner thigh and then hammered the groin of the grappler and then stood up. 

- Off of a double leg (Paul Vunak's Kina Mutay): The person being taken down wraps the grappler in a guard, holds the grappler's head tight, and bites into the grappler's cheek.  When the grappler pushes back, you release and stand up. 

- Off a side control: Reach in between the legs of the person on top and grab and squeeze the groin to get your opponents hips up, either your opponent lets go or you have a chance to get your legs under and pull to your guard.

- If you are in a person's guard: Sit back, hammer or punch your opponent's groin. Stand up and get away. (Krav move)

Any more added to the list is greatly appreciated.  Helpful responses only please. Thank you,

Kab


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (May 7, 2017)

Without going into any specific techniques, the best way to counter grappling is to learn as much grappling as you can benefit from. I've learned that the best thing you can do on your back in guard is to go with the flow and try not to exert your energy. Let the opppnent decide where your energy goes. Use your feet like monkey's paws. Do shrimp crawls and practice escapes. When an opening presents itself, go for a strike. Use your elbows, knees, headbutts, kicks and yes, even your teeth and nails. But do not make a plan to strike. You must learn to flow and move naturally without thinking.


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## Buka (May 8, 2017)

What is the best way to speak French without learning to speak French?

What, you're asking Moi?


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## Hanzou (May 8, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> Hello everyone,
> I posted this in one of the other threads also, I hope that the mods don't mind. This is my first post here and I am hoping that some of you can help me out with some research. I haven't been on one of these types of forums for years, as back then most of the posts were people just bad-mouthing other martial artists. I am hoping to have a better experience here.  So that I don't drag out explanation before getting to the question, I'll ask it first and then give explanation. I am trying to put together a list of grappling counters to be used after a takedown has happened. *What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened?* Most of what I have seen is about sprawling and not be taken down, but I am looking for the best way to beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" contest.
> 
> I have a list of what I've seen so far and would like to add to it. I have been training in various martial arts for 35 years, mostly in more traditional arts. About ten years ago I began training in various "reality based self defense" to fill in the self defense gaps that my traditional arts have.  I found Krav Maga about four years ago. I recently got my Black Belt in Krav, and as much as I love it, most of the grappling defense techniques are effective against basic grapplers. I am looking for something that will work even with very experienced grapplers. I know that the easiest response would be to learn to grapple better but, as a stand up fighter, I don't want to rely on having to out grapple an experienced grappler. Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore. I do have some grappling experience (about a year at Gracies and 10th Planet combined) so I do know the terminology and moves. I am more focusing on hitting them with something they don't expect. Any help is greatly appreciated.  Here is what I have collected so far.  Three of the four I saw occur during "friendly" Jiu Jitsu matches (not street fights.)  The Vunak bite (kina mutay) was taught to me when I trained with Paul and some of his students.
> ...



If you try that with a grappler, you're going to get seriously hurt, or possibly (depending on the mentality of your attacker) killed. Most of the stuff you posted is pure fantasy anyway. The Guard and the Triangle Choke tend to be purely defensive moves, and are mainly employed if your opponent achieved a positional advantage on the ground. There's little need to learn how to counter a Triangle Choke or Guard unless you're training to fight in MMA or Bjj, or you're just a jerk that likes to attack people. 

Problem is, those counters wouldn't work anyway against someone skilled in those techniques, and sound like they were thought up by someone who saw videos or illustrations and never experienced fighting from those positions.

If you want to learn how to stop grappling, you need to learn grappling, period.


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## oftheherd1 (May 8, 2017)

What's been said above.


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## jobo (May 8, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> Hello everyone,
> I posted this in one of the other threads also, I hope that the mods don't mind. This is my first post here and I am hoping that some of you can help me out with some research. I haven't been on one of these types of forums for years, as back then most of the posts were people just bad-mouthing other martial artists. I am hoping to have a better experience here.  So that I don't drag out explanation before getting to the question, I'll ask it first and then give explanation. I am trying to put together a list of grappling counters to be used after a takedown has happened. *What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened?* Most of what I have seen is about sprawling and not be taken down, but I am looking for the best way to beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" contest.
> 
> I have a list of what I've seen so far and would like to add to it. I have been training in various martial arts for 35 years, mostly in more traditional arts. About ten years ago I began training in various "reality based self defense" to fill in the self defense gaps that my traditional arts have.  I found Krav Maga about four years ago. I recently got my Black Belt in Krav, and as much as I love it, most of the grappling defense techniques are effective against basic grapplers. I am looking for something that will work even with very experienced grapplers. I know that the easiest response would be to learn to grapple better but, as a stand up fighter, I don't want to rely on having to out grapple an experienced grappler. Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore. I do have some grappling experience (about a year at Gracies and 10th Planet combined) so I do know the terminology and moves. I am more focusing on hitting them with something they don't expect. Any help is greatly appreciated.  Here is what I have collected so far.  Three of the four I saw occur during "friendly" Jiu Jitsu matches (not street fights.)  The Vunak bite (kina mutay) was taught to me when I trained with Paul and some of his students.
> ...


your over complicating it, hit them, kick them elbow them and knee them, don't grapple with them once they realise that trying to grab your legs or arm is a very painful experience they will stop it


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## Tez3 (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> your over complicating it, hit them, kick them elbow them and knee them, don't grapple with them once they realise that trying to grab your legs or arm is a very painful experience they will stop it



You don't grapple much do you?


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## jobo (May 8, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> You don't grapple much do you?


I have, but generaly I don't need to, I punch people and they generaly fall over, if that doesn't work I hit them again if it gets up close I grab their Adams apple till they pass out


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## DanT (May 8, 2017)

I would say the most important is:

-learning to stand up when an opponent is in your guard

-learning to escape a full mount especially with ground and pound

-learning to escape side control 

-learn what to do when your back is taken 

These are the 4 most common places you will find yourself vs a grappler. Learn to escape them and get back to your feet quickly (under 5 seconds).


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## Tez3 (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> I punch people and they generaly fall over,



Of course they do.  they stand there and let you hit them. What martial art/s do you actually do?


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> The Guard and the Triangle Choke tend to be purely defensive moves, and are mainly employed if your opponent achieved a positional advantage on the ground.



This is pretty much it, if anything could be considered effective "anti-grappling" meaning a way to defeat a superior wrestler / grappler that manages to take you down it would be having a good guard.


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## jobo (May 8, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Of course they do.  they stand there and let you hit them. What martial art/s do you actually do?


your back making things up again
I didn't say they stood there or that they let me, just if I catch them clean they fall over
if I dont catch them clean I keep hitting them till I do


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> hit them, kick them elbow them and knee them, don't grapple with them once they realise that trying to grab your legs or arm is a very painful experience they will stop it


To kick or to knee your opponent, you just give your wrestler opponent a chance to grab your leg. For your opponent to grab your leg, he has to redirect your arms, get a correct angle, and move in. If your opponent is a good wrestler, your kick and knee just save him a lot of extra trouble.

Also if your opponent can get into clinch, it will be difficult to punch him any more.


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## jobo (May 8, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To kick or to knee your opponent, you just give your wrestler opponent a chance to grab your leg. For your opponent to grab your leg, he has to redirect your arms, get a correct angle, and move in. If your opponent is a good wrestler, your kick and knee just save him a lot of extra trouble.
> 
> Also if your opponent can wrap your arms, you will not be able to punch him any more.


but he has to get that close, wrestling is alright for fat blokes that can't punch


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> but he has to get that close, wrestling is alright for fat blokes that can't punch


Assume your opponent just holds a boxing guard (or any guard), runs toward you, and gives up his punching ability. If you don't knock him down at that moment, he will get the clinch he wants. The concern is if your opponent concentrates 100% on defense, how much chance can you knock him down/out when he moves in?

IMO, this is the advantage that a wrestler has over a striker. The wrestler can afford to give up all his punching ability, play defense, and look for that clinch. The striker just can't give up his striking. This is why I believe that "anti-striking" exists but "anti-grappling" doesn't exist.


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## CB Jones (May 8, 2017)

The best anti-grappling technique is to not grapple with a grappler.

The time for eye pokes and dirty tricks is before they get ahold of you.

End the fight quickly or find a way to disengage and retreat.  Once you're on the ground or in the clinch....too late.


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## CB Jones (May 8, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Assume your opponent just holds a boxing guard (or any guard), runs toward you, and gives up his punching ability. If you don't knock him down at that moment, he will get the clinch he wants.



1st I want to know who nailed my feet to the floor


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## TonyU (May 8, 2017)

This is post is not to pick on anyone or anyone's styles, but I see some posts here with similar thought process that I've had throughout my training and career. 
What if my opponents grappling is better than my standup. That's an objective question I had to ask myself after over 20 years of standup. Even when my standup has served me well in my career. So I joined a BJJ school to find out. 
What did I find out? That all the "techniques" I thought would work, didn't! The opposite happened. Those techniques actually set me up for failure.
Now BJJ supplements my stand up very well. While going to the ground will never be my first choice I have enough of a skill set to know what to do if I wind up there.
Plus, lightning hit me twice. I fell in love with another art.


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## Hanzou (May 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> The best anti-grappling technique is to not grapple with a grappler.
> 
> The time for eye pokes and dirty tricks is before they get ahold of you.
> 
> End the fight quickly or find a way to disengage and retreat.  Once you're on the ground or in the clinch....too late.



Terrible advice. Many grapplers are well trained to close the distance and control tempo. Wrestlers are especially good at closing gaps and changing height very quickly, and just about every grappling heavy group (MMA, Bjj, Sombo, etc.) are taking from those set ups.

Further, dirty tricks are pretty low percentage overall. Who has a better chance of success; Someone shooting for a takedown they've done thousands of
times, or someone who pokes a mannequin in a dojo a few times every other week?

I've gone against many wrestlers, and they're extremely good at closing distance, taking you down and controlling you. If I didn't know Bjj, I'd be completely at their mercy.


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## CB Jones (May 8, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Terrible advice. Many grapplers are well trained to close the distance and control tempo. Wrestlers are especially good at closing gaps and changing height very quickly, and just about every grappling heavy group (MMA, Bjj, Sombo, etc.) are taking from those set ups.
> 
> Further, dirty tricks are pretty low percentage overall. Who has a better chance of success; Someone shooting for a takedown they've done thousands of t
> times, or someone who pokes a mannequin in a dojo a few times every other week?



Wait, not grappling with a grappler is a terrible idea?

You suggest that someone who doesn't have grappling experience should grapple with a grappler?  That makes a lot of sense.

Believe it or not it is possible to defend being taken down.  And while doing so if you give me a chance to thumb you in the eye with a jab...I will.


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## oftheherd1 (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> your back making things up again
> I didn't say they stood there or that they let me, just if I catch them clean they fall over
> if I dont catch them clean I keep hitting them till I do



Understand that one of the attributes of a good grappler is speed, another is accuracy.  I don't know about other arts, but in the Hapkido I learned, we have many defenses against hand and feet attacks.  If a punch or kick is trapped, blocked, or re-directed, chances are that attacking arm or leg is going to be joint locked in a damaging way, and the rest of your body is going to be turned in a way you can't do any damage.  Don't expect an opposing Hapkido practitioner, or any other grappling art to stand there and let you do as you will.  Same with grabbing an adam's apple.  Even if you do it to occlude the carotids, you victim will still have 2 - 3 seconds to defend.



jobo said:


> but he has to get that close, wrestling is alright for fat blokes that can't punch



I don't know what grappling you may have done, but from your answers, if you should have to engage in a sparring contest or a real fight, I would suggest you ask your opponent if they are an experienced grappler.  If they should deign to tell you they are (they may not), my suggestion would be to immediately disengage and run, not as fast as you can, but as fast as you have to.

I think you are suffering from being over confident in you art.  I have mentioned before that while I understand one being happy with their own art, unquestionably being over confident is likely to leave you unhappy and not understanding what happened. 

All arts and practitioners have strengths and weaknesses.  If you don't know what your art's strengths and weaknesses are, and what your opponent's art's strengths and weaknesses are, you may get a nasty surprise.

As to wrestlers, how do you categorize talented wrestlers who aren't fat, and can punch as well as wrestle?


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Believe it or not it is possible to defend being taken down.



Wrestlers train this every single practice, of course it's possible.


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## oftheherd1 (May 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Wait, not grappling with a grappler is a terrible idea?
> 
> You suggest that someone who doesn't have grappling experience should grapple with a grappler?  That makes a lot of sense.
> 
> *Believe it or not it is possible to defend being taken down.*  And while doing so if you give me a chance to thumb you in the eye with a jab...I will.



So which do you advocate, grappling or not grappling?


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## CB Jones (May 8, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> So which do you advocate, grappling or not grappling?



Not grappling.

Keep the fight on your feet or disengage and leave


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## CB Jones (May 8, 2017)

My point was once you are on the ground it's too late for dirty tricks


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## Hanzou (May 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> You suggest that someone who doesn't have grappling experience should grapple with a grappler?  That makes a lot of sense.



I suggest that someone who doesn't have grappling experience to go out and get grappling experience.


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## Danny T (May 8, 2017)

TonyU said:


> This is post is not to pick on anyone or anyone's styles, but I see some posts here with similar thought process that I've had throughout my training and career.
> What if my opponents grappling is better than my standup. That's an objective question I had to ask myself after over 20 years of standup. Even when my standup has served me well in my career. So I joined a BJJ school to find out.
> What did I find out? That all the "techniques" I thought would work, didn't! The opposite happened. Those techniques actually set me up for failure.
> Now BJJ supplements my stand up very well. While going to the ground will never be my first choice I have enough of a skill set to know what to do if I wind up there.
> Plus, lightning hit me twice. I fell in love with another art.


Can't and don't claim to be any greatness in the grappling game. Have wrestled and trained in several grappling arts for years. Have trained with, rolled with, and sparred many very good grapplers to know and understand most of what strikers think they can and will do is just plain wrong...you can have all the opinions you want, you can discuss all you want, you can play vs non-grapplers as though they are grapplers all you want and you will still be just plain wrong. Get on the ground and grapple with real grapplers...you will either be humbled and learn something or you will make excuses and not learn at all.


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## CB Jones (May 8, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> I suggest that someone who doesn't have grappling experience to go out and get grappling experience.



Ok.  I never said not to learn to grapple.

Only that if you don't know grappling don't think you can rely on dirty tricks.  You better rely on staying off the ground and out of the clinch.


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## oftheherd1 (May 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Not grappling.
> 
> *Keep the fight on your feet or disengage and leave*



I don't know about other arts, but the Hapkido I studied believes in staying on our feet, or no more than on one knee in completion of a trap of an appendage of someone for a strike or break.



Andrew Green said:


> Wrestlers train this every single practice, of course it's possible.



I would think so.  It may make a difference what the rules are though, if there are any rules.  I don't think that has clearly been established.


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I would think so.  It may make a difference what the rules are though, if there are any rules.  I don't think that has clearly been established.



Early Vale Tudo stuff had no rules, same fundamentals applied there as they do now.  People tried the dirty stuff, it failed without solid fundamentals to back it.


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## Tez3 (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> but he has to get that close, wrestling is alright for fat blokes that can't punch





Hanzou said:


> I suggest that someone who doesn't have grappling experience to go out and get grappling experience.



But, but, grappling/wrestling is only for fat blokes,!

Actually I agree one should have grappling experience, whether or not you 'need' it, I find it immense fun and highly recommend doing BJJ.


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## 23rdwave (May 8, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Can't and don't claim to be any greatness in the grappling game. Have wrestled and trained in several grappling arts for years. Have trained with, rolled with, and sparred many very good grapplers to know and understand most of what strikers think they can and will do is just plain wrong...you can have all the opinions you want, you can discuss all you want, you can play vs non-grapplers as though they are grapplers all you want and you will still be just plain wrong. Get on the ground and grapple with real grapplers...you will either be humbled and learn something or you will make excuses and not learn at all.



Has a grappler ever been humbled or is that an oxymoron? With the people I train with we consider grapplers the easiest to deal with. When you grab someone who has a connected body you become part of them. When they move you move. Better to stick and adhere than grab. I don't find wrist grabs or leg shoots difficult to defend.


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## Danny T (May 8, 2017)

23rdwave said:


> Has a grappler ever been humbled or is that an oxymoron? With the people I train with we consider grapplers the easiest to deal with. When you grab someone who has a connected body you become part of them. When they move you move. Better to stick and adhere than grab. I don't find wrist grabs or leg shoots difficult to defend.


Ok...
Two things then.
1.  You and those you train with are simple amazing and far better than most.
2.  You and those you train with have never had to deal with grapplers who are intermediate or higher level.


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2017)

23rdwave said:


> Has a grappler ever been humbled or is that an oxymoron? With the people I train with we consider grapplers the easiest to deal with. When you grab someone who has a connected body you become part of them. When they move you move. Better to stick and adhere than grab. I don't find wrist grabs or leg shoots difficult to defend.



And here is the problem with training in a bubble.

I suspect they feel the same about you, at least they would if they tried to match their own completely untrained approach to striking against their own highly trained approach to wrestling.


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## Charlemagne (May 8, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> And here is the problem with training in a bubble.
> 
> I suspect they feel the same about you, at least they would if they tried to match their own completely untrained approach to striking against their own highly trained approach to wrestling.



And to be fair, it doesn't take a high level of striking skills to pound someone who doesn't know how to deal with it from full mount.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> but he has to get that close, wrestling is alright for fat blokes that can't punch


Fat guys who can't punch:


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## Charlemagne (May 8, 2017)

TonyU said:


> This is post is not to pick on anyone or anyone's styles, but I see some posts here with similar thought process that I've had throughout my training and career.
> What if my opponents grappling is better than my standup. That's an objective question I had to ask myself after over 20 years of standup. Even when my standup has served me well in my career. So I joined a BJJ school to find out.
> What did I find out? That all the "techniques" I thought would work, didn't! The opposite happened. Those techniques actually set me up for failure.
> Now BJJ supplements my stand up very well. While going to the ground will never be my first choice I have enough of a skill set to know what to do if I wind up there.
> Plus, lightning hit me twice. I fell in love with another art.



Yep. 

I have zero desire to take the fight to the ground in a real world situation, and to be fair, any BJJ instructor worth training under will tell you the same. What I DO want, is the ability to handle myself if I end up there against my will.  

Plus, it's good fun and a heck of a workout!


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## Hanzou (May 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Ok.  I never said not to learn to grapple.
> 
> Only that if you don't know grappling don't think you can rely on dirty tricks.  You better rely on staying off the ground and out of the clinch.



Okay, but what's the excuse for not learning to grapple? There's plenty of martial arts now that can teach you it in a competent, effective manner. If you're worried about a grappler taking you down, learn their game.

If I'm completely honest, when people come in from other arts, the close contact of grappling freaks them out and they run to the hills. They fail to realize that that contact will benefit them in whatever MA they take up. If you freeze up when someone closes the distance and begins to grab you (and I see that constantly) you're screwed.


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## CB Jones (May 8, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Okay, but what's the excuse for not learning to grapple? There's plenty of martial arts now that can teach you it in a competent, effective manner. If you're worried about a grappler taking you down, learn their game.



Again never suggested that someone not learn to grapple....why do you keep bringing that up?

I've got enough training ground fighting to beat someone with no training and enough training to know not to ground fight someone who is trained.


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## jobo (May 8, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Fat guys who can't punch:



there not wrestlers


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## Tez3 (May 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Again never suggested that someone not learn to grapple....



To be honest though one person has inferred that you don't need grappling.



jobo said:


> your over complicating it, hit them, kick them elbow them and knee them, don't grapple with them once they realise that trying to grab your legs or arm is a very painful experience they will stop it





jobo said:


> I don't need to, I punch people and they generaly fall over, if that doesn't work I hit them again if it gets up close I grab their Adams apple till they pass out





jobo said:


> wrestling is alright for fat blokes that can't punch


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## Charlemagne (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> there not wrestlers



Collegiate wrestler:


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## Tez3 (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> there not wrestlers



Are you so sure?


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## Charlemagne (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> there not wrestlers



Catch Wrestler:


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## Hanzou (May 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Again never suggested that someone not learn to grapple....why do you keep bringing that up?



Because you keep saying "if you don't know how to grapple".



> I've got enough training ground fighting to beat someone with no training and enough training to know not to ground fight someone who is trained.



If you're at that point, maybe you should pick up more grappling.


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## jobo (May 8, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Catch Wrestler:


well he is fat


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## CB Jones (May 8, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> To be honest though one person has inferred that you don't need grappling.



Fair enough.

But I didn't infer that.

My point if you are going to eye poke Or fight dirty...you best do it before a grappler gets his/her hands on you.

Once you are on the ground it's over.


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## CB Jones (May 8, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Because you keep saying "if you don't know how to grapple".
> 
> 
> 
> If you're at that point, maybe you should pick up more grappling.



Not everyone is interested in grappling.

I have zero interest in grappling now.

And if I did the nearest school is 50-60 miles away.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 8, 2017)

In the past many years, my MA interest was to find out a proper training method such that a grappler can fight against a striker if that grappler doesn't want to train any striking skill. I have designed a set of testing for that purpose.

If A can

- punch B's body/head within A's initial 20 punches, 
- kick B's body/head within A's initial 20 kicks, 
- kick/punch B's body/head within A's initial 20 punches or kicks, 

before B can get a clinch on A, A wins that round. Otherwise B wins that round. Test this for 15 rounds. Whoever wins over 8 rounds will be the winner that day. The result always shows that B has higher chance to win than A does.

In the following 2 clips, it shows a clinch can be established within 2 - 4 punches time period.


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## Tez3 (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> well he is fat



That's a good joke, well done.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> there not wrestlers


Au contraíre, they are all highly skilled wrestlers. They're also quite good at punching.

Jon Jones was a state champion wrestler in high school and regularly uses his wrestling skills in MMA to take down opponents and beat them up or submit them.

Demetrius Johnson also wrestled in high school, placing 2nd and 3rd in state championships. He also has made good use of his grappling skills in MMA, taking down and submitting multiple opponents in high level competition.

Georges St. Pierre didn't start wrestling until his late teens, but his wrestling and his Jiu-jitsu have been instrumental to his success as an MMA champion. His ability to take opponents down with a double-leg and keep them down has won him many fights.

If you want I can post pictures of fighters who were national or world champions at wrestling before getting into the fight game, but that's not going to help your case any.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Believe it or not it is possible to defend being taken down.


It's possible to defend against "take down". It's difficult (if not impossible) to defend against a 300 lb guy who tries to "drag you down with his body weight".

Of course when your opponent drags you down, you can drop your

- elbow on his throat or chest,
- knee on his chest or groin.

But if you don't kill him with your "drag down counter", you will still have to deal with his ground game after that.


----------



## 23rdwave (May 8, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Ok...
> Two things then.
> 1.  You and those you train with are simple amazing and far better than most.
> 2.  You and those you train with have never had to deal with grapplers who are intermediate or higher level.



1. We're better than most but nothing amazing. Just taiji and yiquan.
2. Rugby and judo are my grappling styles. The pro ruggers and judo black belts I trained with were high level enough.


----------



## 23rdwave (May 8, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> And here is the problem with training in a bubble.
> 
> I suspect they feel the same about you, at least they would if they tried to match their own completely untrained approach to striking against their own highly trained approach to wrestling.



I don't train in a bubble. I seek out the best people and learn from them and sometimes, unfortunately, there is nothing to be learned. Another paper tiger exposed. All grapplers welcome.


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Understand that one of the attributes of a good grappler is speed, another is accuracy.  I don't know about other arts, but in the Hapkido I learned, we have many defenses against hand and feet attacks.  If a punch or kick is trapped, blocked, or re-directed, chances are that attacking arm or leg is going to be joint locked in a damaging way, and the rest of your body is going to be turned in a way you can't do any damage.  Don't expect an opposing Hapkido practitioner, or any other grappling art to stand there and let you do as you will.  Same with grabbing an adam's apple.  Even if you do it to occlude the carotids, you victim will still have 2 - 3 seconds to defend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He has super speed or something. No one can touch him.


----------



## Tez3 (May 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> But I didn't infer that.



which is why I provided quotes from the person who did.



23rdwave said:


> Rugby and judo are my grappling styles.



Yay, a brilliant combination in my opinion! Only, is it Union or League Rugby?


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't know about other arts, but the Hapkido I studied believes in staying on our feet, or no more than on one knee in completion of a trap of an appendage of someone for a strike or break.
> 
> 
> 
> I would think so.  It may make a difference what the rules are though, if there are any rules.  I don't think that has clearly been established.



wrestling believes on staying on their feet as well by the way. And are actually very good at it.


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> I have, but generaly I don't need to, I punch people and they generaly fall over, if that doesn't work I hit them again if it gets up close I grab their Adams apple till they pass out



No worries mark hunt.


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## Charlemagne (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> well he is fat



But he can punch, so it still belies your claim.


----------



## Tez3 (May 8, 2017)

drop bear said:


> wrestling believes on staying on their feet as well by the way. And are actually very good at it.



Indeed. There's also quite a few wrestling styles that don't go to the ground at all, the grappling is done standing.


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Wait, not grappling with a grappler is a terrible idea?
> 
> You suggest that someone who doesn't have grappling experience should grapple with a grappler?  That makes a lot of sense.
> 
> Believe it or not it is possible to defend being taken down.  And while doing so if you give me a chance to thumb you in the eye with a jab...I will.



There is a whole bunch of interesting ideas regarding grappling and anti grappling.

You wouldn't shoot on a grappler. You wouldn't hang around in guard unless you are bashing the guy.

You would learn grappling defences. You would learn escapes from the ground.

The question is how you go about it. You don't really need the full BJJ syllabus to supplement your striking to make it a bit difficult for a grappler to take you down and hold you down. Especially not at a casual level. But the defences you do need to know you need to know them well.

And that is the tricky part. Because it is kind of hard to find a quality grappler without actually having to spend the time learning grappling.

This is why I keep advocating wrestling over BJJ they start with a bit less system that is a bit more aplicable in a striking context.


----------



## Charlemagne (May 8, 2017)

drop bear said:


> This is why I keep advocating wrestling over BJJ they start with a bit less system that is a bit more aplicable in a striking context.



Can you clarify this?  Certainly many, if not most, BJJ schools these days ignore striking all together, but classically this is not the case, and there are still many of the more traditional schools still teach it, including on the ground.  However, I haven't seen anything in wrestling (unless it is Catch) where striking is considered at all.  I'm curious to hear where that idea is coming from.

Cheers!


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Can you clarify this?  Certainly many, if not most, BJJ schools these days ignore striking all together, but classically this is not the case, and there are still many of the more traditional schools still teach it, including on the ground.  However, I haven't seen anything in wrestling (unless it is Catch) where striking is considered at all.  I'm curious to hear where that idea is coming from.
> 
> Cheers!



It is positionally better for striking. To start with more focus on takedowns. If you want to stop a fighter you want him to be on his back. Eg. Brock Lesnar Mark Hunt. So you need to work on the tools that take him there.

There is more focus on top side control. For a striker you want to be on top.You can't effectively strike from the bottom.

There is more focus on standing back up and escaping. Because you don't want to be rolling around with a submissions guy.

And these techniques pretty much occure when you start. Double leg, single leg, top side control, stand up escapes. So you learn the most important stuff off the bat.

BJJ the first thing you do is sit on your but and learn submissions.

As a striker. You want to be this slippery hard to pin down guy.


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## Charlemagne (May 8, 2017)

drop bear said:


> BJJ the first thing you do is sit on your but and learn submissions.



Depends on where you train, but yeah, that is pretty common in the sport schools.


----------



## Hanzou (May 8, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Depends on where you train, but yeah, that is pretty common in the sport schools.



Yeah, Gracie JJ schools tend to be more self-defense/MMA based than a lot of sport Bjj schools. Learning how to defend against striking while in position is pretty important.

EDIT: Nevermind, just re-read DB's post.

Yeah, can't really advocate wrestling over Bjj for several reasons. Mainly that many Bjj schools incorporate wrestling and Judo these days, and wrestling still isn't incorporating submissions.

Not very helpful if you're a smaller guy or a woman either. Yeah, you can take people down (probably), but once you got them down, very little is going to keep them there if they're a lot bigger than you are.


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## jobo (May 8, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Au contraíre, they are all highly skilled wrestlers. They're also quite good at punching.
> 
> Jon Jones was a state champion wrestler in high school and regularly uses his wrestling skills in MMA to take down opponents and beat them up or submit them.
> 
> ...


so they used to be wrestlers, I used to have hair. If they are punching they are not wrestling


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## Tony Dismukes (May 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> so they used to be wrestlers, I used to have hair. If they are punching they are not wrestling


Wrong again. It would make just as much sense to say that if they are punching they are not wrestling. They can do both. Punching makes the wrestling work better. Wrestling makes the punches work better.


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## Touch Of Death (May 8, 2017)

Pretty much every technique, in Kenpo, is anti-grappling; however, you were supposed to also know grappling.


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, Gracie JJ schools tend to be more self-defense/MMA based than a lot of sport Bjj schools. Learning how to defend against striking while in position is pretty important.
> 
> EDIT: Nevermind, just re-read DB's post.
> 
> ...



For a suplimental to striking you wouldn't incorparate submissions. It is hard to be any good at submissions unless you are willing to put the time in. Much easier to hit people.

Hitting people makes it easier to get submissions as well.

Yes submission skills are important skills to learn. But then you have to do a whole dedicated system to learn them. Or you are just going to be outclassed all the time.

A lot of what we do is stopping halfway through the submission process. So for example a very effective guard pass is elbows.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 8, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> I am trying to put together a list of grappling counters to be used after a takedown has happened. *What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened?* Most of what I have seen is about sprawling and not be taken down, but I am looking for the best way to beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" contest.


1. Become an expert at avoiding takedowns
2. Become an expert at escaping takedowns
3. Become an expert at countering takedowns.
4. Become an expert at understanding what makes a takedown work.

Find a BJJ partner and ask him or her to try to take you down.  Find a BJJ partner and try to escape once you hit the ground. Don't start from the ground, but allow the takedown to be successful and work it from there.  Sometimes the way you fall gives you an advantage of using specific escapes or counters.  Be sure to learn how to take others down when they are trying to take you down. The longer you stay on the ground with someone who does BJJ the more you'll need need some solid grappling skills because they are dragging you into their sandbox and if they get you there, you will lose.  

It's almost saying I want to learn how to deal with a punch after it hits me in the face. You want to do your best to address a punch before it lands solid.  Your statement "Beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" means you are already in a no win situation.  Don't try to out grapple a grappler.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 8, 2017)

You will also need to deal with "body slam" as well.


----------



## PhotonGuy (May 9, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> *What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened?*


Learn to grapple yourself. I would say that's the most effective method to deal with a situation. That's why I've taken up Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

As for the specifics, that would depend on the situation. A main factor would be what position you and your opponent are in when the takedown occurs and so forth. To understand that I will go back to what I said above, learn to grapple.


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> Understand that one of the attributes of a good grappler is speed, another is accuracy.  I don't know about other arts, but in the Hapkido I learned, we have many defenses against hand and feet attacks.  If a punch or kick is trapped, blocked, or re-directed, chances are that attacking arm or leg is going to be joint locked in a damaging way, and the rest of your body is going to be turned in a way you can't do any damage.  Don't expect an opposing Hapkido practitioner, or any other grappling art to stand there and let you do as you will.  Same with grabbing an adam's apple.  Even if you do it to occlude the carotids, you victim will still have 2 - 3 seconds to defend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not over confident in my art, in fact I'm not that confident to be honest, a lot of it is counter intuitive to me and i would probably   drop it in a real fight and go back to what I know works.

I'm am how ever confident in my own abilities. I'm big and fast and strong. If I hit people they fall over, I've done it many times over the years.
however if I was to fight an expert then I would lose, that's true if it we're boxing expert or a karate expert or a wrestling expert. That's because I'm not an expert. The thread was how to deal with grapplers, not how to fight an interstate champion or a ufc fighter or what ever people have migrated to.

allowing some equality in physical and skill abilities. Then wrestlers' don't have the advantage that people here suggest. If it we're so, no one would have bothered developing striking arts and only wrestling would exist


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Wrong again. It would make just as much sense to say that if they are punching they are not wrestling. They can do both. Punching makes the wrestling work better. Wrestling makes the punches work better.


again, I haven't been wrong yet, if they are fighting in ufc, they are ufc fighters not wrestlers', they have even written it on their gloves so the hard of thinking can pick it up.
which is another clue, punching is not allowed in wrestling, so they don't wear gloves


----------



## Hanzou (May 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> For a suplimental to striking you wouldn't incorparate submissions. It is hard to be any good at submissions unless you are willing to put the time in. Much easier to hit people.
> 
> Hitting people makes it easier to get submissions as well.
> 
> ...



Okay, but you're not going to learn how to pass guard with elbows in wrestling. 

For Bjj, the best takeaway from wrestling is takedowns, set ups, and top pressure and a lot of Bjj schools incorporate wrestling into their curriculum.


----------



## oftheherd1 (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm not over confident in my art, in fact I'm not that confident to be honest, a lot of it is counter intuitive to me and i would probably   drop it in a real fight and go back to what I know works.
> 
> I'm am how ever confident in my own abilities. I'm big and fast and strong. If I hit people they fall over, I've done it many times over the years.
> however if I was to fight an expert then I would lose, that's true if it we're boxing expert or a karate expert or a wrestling expert. That's because I'm not an expert. The thread was how to deal with grapplers, not how to fight an interstate champion or a ufc fighter or what ever people have migrated to.
> ...



What advantage do you see studying an art when "... a lot of it is counter intuitive...?"  Is it the only MA taught where you are, or are you too new to it to see how to make what seems counter-intuitive work after all?  That is sometimes true.

Anyway, good for you to make people fall when you hit them.  What happens if they know techniques that prevents you from hitting them?

As far as what the thread was about, I think I have answered mostly as a student of a grappling art.  Threads do often drift, but I think this one has stayed remarkably on topic, compared to many.  Just my opinion of course.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm am how ever confident in my own abilities. I'm big and fast and strong. If I hit people they fall over, I've done it many times over the years.





jobo said:


> allowing some equality in physical and skill abilities


In that case your opponent will also be big and fast and strong, so you can't rely on those physical attributes to give you the edge. Thus the discussion of technique.



jobo said:


> Then wrestlers' don't have the advantage that people here suggest. If it we're so, no one would have bothered developing striking arts and only wrestling would exist



The original question was how to deal with a skilled grappler _after you have already been taken down_. Asking how to do that without grappling skills of your own is a bit like asking how to deal with a boxer when you have both your hands tied behind your back. Not saying it's impossible, but you're dealing with a sizable disadvantage.



jobo said:


> however if I was to fight an expert then I would lose, that's true if it we're boxing expert or a karate expert or a wrestling expert. That's because I'm not an expert. The thread was how to deal with grapplers, not how to fight an interstate champion or a ufc fighter or what ever people have migrated to.



The original question stated "_I am looking for something that will work even with *very experienced grapplers*_". That doesn't mean a UFC champion, but it does indicate an expert,



jobo said:


> again, I haven't been wrong yet, if they are fighting in ufc, they are ufc fighters not wrestlers', they have even written it on their gloves so the hard of thinking can pick it up.
> which is another clue, punching is not allowed in wrestling, so they don't wear gloves



False dichotomy. Someone can be a wrestler and also a UFC fighter. Just like someone can be a karateka and a UFC fighter or a boxer and a UFC fighter. Some people are all of the above. When a wrestler fights in the UFC, he uses his wrestling skills along with whatever he other skills he possesses to beat his opponent.

This is directly relevant to the original question. The OP asked how to defend against a skilled grappler in a real fight, not in a wrestling tournament. Your original answer - "_ hit them, kick them elbow them and knee them, don't grapple with them once they realise that trying to grab your legs or arm is a very painful experience they will stop it_" - was based on this context. Hitting, kicking, elbowing, kneeing are not allowed in a wrestling tournament, so clearly you are considering a violent encounter with a grappler in a non-tournament setting which means they are capable of hitting, kicking, elbowing, and kneeing as well. If they get on top of you, they can do it that much more effectively.

BTW - the original question was dealing with skilled grapplers in general, not just wrestlers. I just found your comment "_wrestling is alright for fat blokes that can't punch_" particularly amusing because wrestlers tend to be some of the fittest athletes in the world with very low body fat (unless you count sumo wrestlers, who are kind of in their own separate category).

(On the question of "_can't punch_", I can't speak for the average wrestler. I can say that a quick survey of my fellow BJJ black belts that I know personally shows that probably around 70% of them are at least black belt or black belt equivalent in some striking art as well. I don't know how representative that is of the community as a whole, but I also note that 100% of the BJJ black belts I know of on this forum also hold instructor rank in some striking art.)


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> What advantage do you see studying an art when "... a lot of it is counter intuitive...?"  Is it the only MA taught where you are, or are you too new to it to see how to make what seems counter-intuitive work after all?  That is sometimes true.
> 
> Anyway, good for you to make people fall when you hit them.  What happens if they know techniques that prevents you from hitting them?
> 
> As far as what the thread was about, I think I have answered mostly as a student of a grappling art.  Threads do often drift, but I think this one has stayed remarkably on topic, compared to many.  Just my opinion of course.


its very big on practical karate,ie teaching people who cant fight how to defend themselves, I have no need for this as I can already defend myself and i wouldn't do it the way we are shown,. I'm long limbed I kick and punch from range,

if I meet someone with considerably greater skill than myself, have probably lost, but that's true for everybody, its a numbers game, the chances of me being mugged by a hapkidio expert are low to never going to happen


----------



## Tez3 (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> I have no need for this as I can already defend myself and i wouldn't do it the way we are shown,.



So, who do you train with and do they know you think you know everything and they don't know anything?


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In that case your opponent will also be big and fast and strong, so you can't rely on those physical attributes to give you the edge. Thus the discussion of technique.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you've joined the list of people on here who just start making up facts,,,, the op asked about dealing with,a grappler not a skilled grappler,. Just an ordinary grappler.

I'm pretty sure he didn't have ufc professional's in mind when he asked his question

on the other point, if a wrestler is throwing punches, he is no longer wrestling. Thats a simple statement of fact


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> So, who do you train with and do they know you think you know everything and they don't know anything?


there very good at teaching girls and weak uncoordinated men how to defend themselves, I'm getting a bit disenchanted as I dont want to learn what to do if someone grabs hold of me in some silly role play game. I want to learn karate


----------



## Tez3 (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> there very good at teaching girls and weak uncoordinated men how to defend themselves, I'm getting a bit disenchanted as I dont want to learn what to do if someone grabs hold of me in some silly role play game. I want to learn karate



So what style is this and where? Perhaps if you weren't so up yourself you could actually learn karate, I can't think of anywhere where an ego the size of yours would actually fit.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm not over confident in my art, in fact I'm not that confident to be honest, a lot of it is counter intuitive to me and i would probably drop it in a real fight and go back to what I know works.


 You got to fix this, otherwise you are just training for health benefits.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> So, who do you train with and do they know you think you know everything and they don't know anything?


I pictured you sitting on the phone talking to his instructor.  And then he returns to school and gets a surprise sparring match


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> you've joined the list of people on here who just start making up facts,,,, the op asked about dealing with,a grappler not a skilled grappler,. Just an ordinary grappler.





Kababayan said:


> I am looking for something that will work even with *very experienced grapplers*


Want to try again?



jobo said:


> on the other point, if a wrestler is throwing punches, he is no longer wrestling. Thats a simple statement of fact


If a wrestler uses his grappling skill to hold you down while he punches your face in, then he is still wrestling. He's wrestling and striking at the same time. Multitasking - it's a  useful concept.

You might have an _opinion_ that the definition of wrestling should preclude that sort of multitasking, but given that you are not a grappler, I don't think your personal definition takes precedence over those who do grapple.

Putting aside all this back and forth, I might note that your advice (as qualified by your later statements concerning your personal experience) boils down to "_be bigger, stronger, and faster than your unskilled opponent, then you can just hit him until they fall down_." This is undoubtedly an effective approach, but do you think it's really useful advice for anyone who doesn't already have those advantages?


----------



## Tez3 (May 9, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> *What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened?*





Kababayan said:


> . I am looking for something that will work *even with very experienced grapplers*.





jobo said:


> the op asked about dealing with,a grappler not a skilled grappler,. Just an ordinary grappler.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

I'm not sure why people have an assumption that they can out wrestle someone and never train to wrestle.


----------



## wingchun100 (May 9, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> The best anti-grappling technique is to not grapple with a grappler.
> 
> The time for eye pokes and dirty tricks is before they get ahold of you.
> 
> End the fight quickly or find a way to disengage and retreat.  Once you're on the ground or in the clinch....too late.


 
That's kind of like when people ask the best counter to an arm bar. I have always said, "Make sure they aren't able to pull one off."


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Want to try again?
> 
> 
> If a wrestler uses his grappling skill to hold you down while he punches your face in, then he is still wrestling. He's wrestling and striking at the same time. Multitasking - it's a  useful concept.
> ...


experienced and skilled are NOT the same thing
he isn't wrestling any more he is doing some mma nonsense

yes, if you cant out grapple them, then punching kicking them is a very good strategy


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> experienced and skilled are NOT the same thing


Ahh, I get it. You figured the OP was asking about dealing with attackers who have lots of experience but also have some sort of learning disability which prevented them from learning anything or acquiring any skills from that experience. Well done! That's a scenario which doesn't get discussed enough.



jobo said:


> yes, if you cant out grapple them, then punching kicking them is a very good strategy


Sure thing, while you're still standing up. The original question written by the OP was what to do _once you have already been taken down_. Do you think that trying to punch and kick an opponent who is sitting on your chest is a very good strategy for winning a fight? If so, there's a lot of real world evidence suggesting you are incorrect on that point.

BTW - was your last sentence ("_yes, if you cant out grapple them, then punching kicking them is a very good strategy_") meant to be an answer to my last question in the post you were responding to ("_I might note that your advice (as qualified by your later statements concerning your personal experience) boils down to 'be bigger, stronger, and faster than your unskilled opponent, then you can just hit him until they fall down.' This is undoubtedly an effective approach, but do you think it's really useful advice for anyone who doesn't already have those advantages?_")? If so, you seem to be missing the point that "_be_ _bigger, stronger, and faster than your unskilled opponent" _isn't advice a person can just choose to follow unless they are the aggressor picking fights with selected victims who are unskilled and physically inferior.


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Ahh, I get it. You figured the OP was asking about dealing with attackers who have lots of experience but also have some sort of learning disability which prevented them from learning anything or acquiring any skills from that experience. Well done! That's a scenario which doesn't get discussed enough.
> 
> 
> Sure thing, while you're still standing up. The original question written by the OP was what to do _once you have already been taken down_. Do you think that trying to punch and kick an opponent who is sitting on your chest is a very good strategy for winning a fight? If so, there's a lot of real world evidence suggesting you are incorrect on that point.
> ...


well there are levels of skill, every one has some grappling skill, just not very much. For instance you clearly have an amount of experience at grappling, but not very much skill, other wise you would be earning mega bucks in the ufc.

so your a typical very experianced, but not very skillful grappler. Just sort of person my advice was,intended for fighting against. If its a top level grappler then it proberbly won't work very well, but for hobby bjj it should be fine


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> well there are levels of skill, every one has some grappling skill, just not very much. For instance you clearly have an amount of experience at grappling, but not very much skill, other wise you would be earning mega bucks in the ufc.
> 
> so your a typical very experianced, but not very skillful grappler. Just sort of person my advice was,intended for fighting against. If its a top level grappler then it proberbly won't work very well, but for hobby bjj it should be fine


So if you aren't fighting professionally, you are not skilled?


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Ahh, I get it. You figured the OP was asking about dealing with attackers who have lots of experience but also have some sort of learning disability which prevented them from learning anything or acquiring any skills from that experience. Well done! That's a scenario which doesn't get discussed enough.
> 
> 
> Sure thing, while you're still standing up. The original question written by the OP was what to do _once you have already been taken down_. Do you think that trying to punch and kick an opponent who is sitting on your chest is a very good strategy for winning a fight? If so, there's a lot of real world evidence suggesting you are incorrect on that point.
> ...


the advice such as it was, it wasn't given as,advice, but anyway, the advice that you should be bigger stronger faster than your oppoinent is very much in your own hands as you should train to be bigger stronger faster than your oppoinent,
if you are not then train harder


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> So if you aren't fighting professionally, you are not skilled?


people were popping pictures of ufc fighters up to make the point that wressling was effective, so in the same vain . No if your not good enough to earn a good living out of beating people up, then you are short of being called skilled. So let's call them,semi skilled


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> people were popping pictures of ufc fighters up to make the point that wressling was effective, so in the same vain . No if your not good enough to earn a good living out of beating people up, then you are short of being called skilled. So let's call them,semi skilled


Are you certain?


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Are you certain?


am I certain that ufc fighter are skilled ? Yes therefore any one less skilled is only semi skilled


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> For instance you clearly have an amount of experience at grappling, but not very much *skill*, other wise you would be earning mega bucks in the ufc.



In the words of Inigo Montoya, "_you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means_."

In this case you are apparently using "skill" to mean, world class athleticism (strength, speed, conditioning),  and the competitive drive to get to the very top of a sport dominated by elite athletes (most of whom don't earn anywhere close to megabucks). You are totally correct that I do not possess those things. However since those things are not part of the definition of "skill", your statement is a non-sequitur. 

As far as your advice being fine for use against "hobby" BJJ, you can try that experiment for yourself. Find a typical hobbyist BJJ black belt (not a professional fighter), allow him to start on the ground on top of you, then try your suggested tactics and report back. If you really want to test your theory, then you can make sure you are "_allowing some equality in physical and skill abilities_" by finding a BJJ black belt your own size, but I'm betting you can probably find some smaller practitioners who would be willing to help you try your ideas out.


----------



## jobo (May 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In the words of Inigo Montoya, "_you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means_."
> 
> In this case you are apparently using "skill" to mean, world class athleticism (strength, speed, conditioning),  and the competitive drive to get to the very top of a sport dominated by elite athletes (most of whom don't earn anywhere close to megabucks). You are totally correct that I do not possess those things. However since those things are not part of the definition of "skill", your statement is a non-sequitur.
> 
> As far as your advice being fine for use against "hobby" BJJ, you can try that experiment for yourself. Find a typical hobbyist BJJ black belt (not a professional fighter), allow him to start on the ground on top of you, then try your suggested tactics and report back. If you really want to test your theory, then you can make sure you are "_allowing some equality in physical and skill abilities_" by finding a BJJ black belt your own size, but I'm betting you can probably find some smaller practitioners who would be willing to help you try your ideas out.


who are you comparing your skill level against. You we're posting pictures of mma fighters to show that grappling worked, but now you are being compared unfavourably to them you are taking issue with it

I'm sure you are better than others in your group, but as they sent very good its not much of a recommendation for you

my point was you knock them over before they get on top of you, you don't need grappling skills then


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## Tony Dismukes (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> am I certain that ufc fighter are skilled ? Yes therefore any one less skilled is only semi skilled


Okay, I think I understand that logic. Let's see...

Winners of the Nobel Prize in physics are intelligent, therefore anyone less smart is only semi-intelligent.
Bill Gates is wealthy, therefore anyone with less money is only semi-wealthy.
Nonagenarians are old, therefore anyone younger is only semi-elderly.

Gotcha. We just need to remember to use "semi-" before any of our self-referential adjectives from now on.


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## jobo (May 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, I think I understand that logic. Let's see...
> 
> Winners of the Nobel Prize in physics are intelligent, therefore anyone less smart is only semi-intelligent.
> Bill Gates is wealthy, therefore anyone with less money is only semi-wealthy.
> ...


yes all of those are comparatives. Compared with bill gates most people are poor. But you started posting pictures of ufc fighter, compared to them we are all only semi skilled fighters

if you don't want to be compared to them, don't post pictures of them to show grappling is effective


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## Touch Of Death (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes all of those are comparatives. Compared with bill gates most people are poor. But you started posting pictures of ufc fighter, compared to them we are all only semi skilled fighters
> 
> if you don't want to be compared to them, don't post pictures of them to show grappling is effective


So... do you, like, teach people, and stuff?


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## jobo (May 9, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> So... do you, like, teach people, and stuff?


I do teach people yes, just not fighting,


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## TonyU (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> my point was you knock them over before they get on top of you, you don't need grappling skills then


And if you don't or can't, what then?

Btw, I've fought professionally, but not in the way most people think.


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## jobo (May 9, 2017)

TonyU said:


> And if you don't or can't, what then?


its a fight!!! If I knock them over I win, if they pin me to the floor and pound me they win

that's how fights work, generaly


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## oftheherd1 (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> its very big on practical karate,ie teaching people who cant fight how to defend themselves, I have no need for this as I can already defend myself and i wouldn't do it the way we are shown,. I'm long limbed I kick and punch from range,
> 
> if I meet someone with considerably greater skill than myself, have probably lost, but that's true for everybody, its a numbers game, *the chances of me being mugged by a hapkidio expert are low to never going to happen*



You are quite correct on that one.


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## TonyU (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> its a fight!!! If I knock them over I win, if they pin me to the floor and pound me they win
> 
> that's how fights work, generaly


Ok, fair enough, but in my line of work I can't afford to let my opponent "win!"


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## jobo (May 9, 2017)

TonyU said:


> Ok, fair enough, but in my line of work I can't afford to let my opponent "win!"


so hit them harder


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## Touch Of Death (May 9, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> You are quite correct on that one.


The chances rise, if you live in Korea.


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## oftheherd1 (May 9, 2017)

@jobo - I guess I am sort of like you.  I don't like to lose arguments either.  I will sometimes say so dumb things to try to come out on top as well.  But I am trying to grow out of it.  I don't doubt you can fight, or that you have been successful at it in the past, doing what you have learned to do.

But give us poor martial artists a break.  After all, you say you want to be one too.  We tend to have skills in martial arts from long practice.  Someday, God willing, you will too.  You will no longer have to rely on hoping you are still the fastest, longest armed, hardest hitting person in the fight.  You too will have skills to fight another way.  How do you put us down when you say you want to be one?  Doesn't make sense.

I like others are curious what kind of a school you are attending.  If I wanted to study a martial art, put down my money, and found out all I was being taught were some quick-start self defense moves, I would want my money back too.  Or immediate passage into the schools actual MA studies, if the school has that.

I would suggest you look very hard for the kind o school you want.  You don't want to start at a place where they don't teach to a standard you prefer of hitting and hitting again.  I don't know if you can even find that.  Nor do I recommend that you do that anyway.

Most even half way legitimate martial arts do teach skills beyond that.  They will be useful to you if you take the time to learn them.  And you don't have to give up your hitting prowess; just add more tools to your skills.


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## oftheherd1 (May 9, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> The chances rise, if you live in Korea.



LOL.  But I am not so sure of that.  If you were belted in Korea, were you not given a card you should carry everywhere you went.  And surrender to the police when they came if you were in a fight?

Besides that, the martial arts schools I knew of discouraged fighting.  Well except for some who were Judo School dropouts.   That was a euphemism for hoodlums.  One could occasionally read in the newspapers about big fights between judo school dropouts; gang fights.


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## Touch Of Death (May 9, 2017)

Or semi-skill, as it were.


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## oftheherd1 (May 9, 2017)

@op - I hope we haven't drifted too far from your question.  We may have a little, but I really don't think as be as you described in your OP.

I hope you have realized that it is difficult to answer your question without giving you a full course in escaping from being on the ground.  A lot of grappling schools won't do that until you reach a certain level, so they know you have certain skills you will need to make the techniques work. 

If you have skills in another MA, you can learn quicker, but you are still best served knowing things about body mechanics and have a strong grip.  If that isn't the answer you are looking for, perhaps describing certain things that have happened and we might be able to give you better ideas.  But don't count on it since it just depends on too many things.


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## oftheherd1 (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> so hit them harder



You do know there are some jobs where you aren't expected to lose, but you are required to win under certain rules that your opponent doesn't have to obey?

And win or lose, your fight may be on the 6 O'clock news.


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## jobo (May 9, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> You do know there are some jobs where you aren't expected to lose, but you are required to win under certain rules that your opponent doesn't have to obey?
> 
> And win or lose, your fight may be on the 6 O'clock news.


do these rules preclude you from hitting the.?


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## Tony Dismukes (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> You we're posting pictures of mma fighters to show that grappling worked,


I believe you misunderstood my purpose in posting those pictures. It has nothing to do with "proving grappling works." That's been proven already over and over again in all kinds of contexts. I was posting in response to your claim that wrestlers were fat and couldn't punch. Of course, I could have posted pictures of lean and mean wrestlers from our local high school or my gym, but then you wouldn't have any way of verifying that they could punch.




jobo said:


> my point was you knock them over before they get on top of you, you don't need grappling skills then



Not a bad idea if you can manage it. Doesn't address the original question being asked though: "_what do you do once you  have already been taken down?"_




jobo said:


> I'm sure you are better than others in your group, but as they sent very good its not much of a recommendation for you



Forget being big and strong, your skills of clairvoyance should be your primary means of self-defense. If you can know who I train with from across the globe, you should have no trouble seeing and avoiding muggers coming from around the corner!


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## Tez3 (May 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I could have posted pictures of lean and mean wrestlers from our local high school or my gym,



Hell, post them anyway, I enjoyed the others. I don't care whether they can punch or not, just like looking at fit men.


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## oftheherd1 (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> do these rules preclude you from hitting the.?



You may be allowed to hit some.  But you aren't going to be allowed to stand back and punch them to the ground then punch them into the ground, whether they give up or not.  Your opponent doesn't have to follow that, in fact, almost assuredly will not.

And to keep us from playing cat and mouse, I am referring to police and security work, but mostly to police work.


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## Buka (May 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> BJJ the first thing you do is sit on your but and learn submissions.



Not fair to cherry pick one part of your post, but that hasn't been my experience. My first experience was in Freestyle BJJ, and it was learning position and base - and punching from position. (while maintaining your base) Submissions was the last thing to be covered, way later.

And my first experience in a BJJ school (also Freestyle BJJ) was to be doing whatever the class happened to be doing at that time. Might be different in a large BJJ school, maybe if they have a beginners class as well as a more advanced class. But "sitting on your butt and learning submissions" I've never heard of that.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 9, 2017)

Buka said:


> Submissions was the last thing to be covered, ...


Agree with you 100% there.

Many BJJ guys came to my student's school to train Sanda (Sanda + BJJ = MMA). It was very interested to find out that some BJJ guy's "ability to resist against throw" were very weak. If you have to use 100 lb force to throw a normal opponent, it only takes 20 lb force to throw a BJJ guy. My student and I didn't know why. Later on we found out that in their BJJ schools, they had never trained how to resist against a take down. The logic in their mind were, "Even if you don't take me down, I'll still drag you down. Why should I resist against your take down?"

IMO, the problem is when you take the short cut and skip certain training, you will have a hole in your total package that you may be weak in that area for the rest of your life.


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## Touch Of Death (May 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree with you 100% there.
> 
> Many BJJ guys came to my student's school to train Sanda (Sanda + BJJ = MMA). It was very interested to find out that some BJJ guy's "ability to resist against throw" were very weak. If you have to use 100 lb force to throw a normal opponent, it only takes 20 lb force to throw a BJJ guy. My student and I didn't know why. Later on we found out that in their BJJ schools, they had never trained how to resist against a take down. The logic in their mind were, "Even if you don't take me down, I'll still drag you down. Why should I resist against your take down?"
> 
> IMO, the problem is when you take the short cut and skip certain training, you will have a hole in your total package that you may be weak in that area for the rest of your life.


There in lies the problem with grappling. If you have to go to the ground to shine, will his buddies refrain from kicking you in the face?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 9, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> There in lies the problem with grappling. If you have to go to the ground to shine, will his buddies refrain from kicking you in the face?


One of my friend's son was killed that way. The blood filled in his son's skull. Even the EM doctor didn't know what to do until his son was dead. A kick to the back of the head when you are on the ground is bad news.


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## drop bear (May 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> people were popping pictures of ufc fighters up to make the point that wressling was effective, so in the same vain . No if your not good enough to earn a good living out of beating people up, then you are short of being called skilled. So let's call them,semi skilled



Ok. Just for fun here is some street wrestling and punching,weapon defence and multiple oponants from a non fat guy.

To show you that you may need both tools to deal with agression.

https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/martial-arts-saved-life-brutal-road-rage-fight/


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## drop bear (May 9, 2017)

Buka said:


> Not fair to cherry pick one part of your post, but that hasn't been my experience. My first experience was in Freestyle BJJ, and it was learning position and base - and punching from position. (while maintaining your base) Submissions was the last thing to be covered, way later.
> 
> And my first experience in a BJJ school (also Freestyle BJJ) was to be doing whatever the class happened to be doing at that time. Might be different in a large BJJ school, maybe if they have a beginners class as well as a more advanced class. But "sitting on your butt and learning submissions" I've never heard of that.



So what position were you learning this base from.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 9, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> There in lies the problem with grappling. If you have to go to the ground to shine, will his buddies refrain from kicking you in the face?


That's not a problem with grappling. It's a problem with training only _half _of grappling. Learning only ground grappling without also learning the standing aspects of the art is like learning to box with only one hand.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 9, 2017)

Buka said:


> But "sitting on your butt and learning submissions" I've never heard of that.


Unfortunately I have encountered that in more than one place. I attribute it to the growth of people wanting to train just the sport of tournament BJJ and not studying the martial art.


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## drop bear (May 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's not a problem with grappling. It's a problem with training only _half _of grappling. Learning only ground grappling without also learning the standing aspects of the art is like learning to box with only one hand.



I have this dream that i will just take 5 guys to every self defence class I can find. And when the instructor demonstrates a move just jump him.

And then go.

"Ahah.. but it doesn't work when all his friends turn up does it?"


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## drop bear (May 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Unfortunately I have encountered that in more than one place. I attribute it to the growth of people wanting to train just the sport of tournament BJJ and not studying the martial art.



Ok mabye this will work better.

How did Demetrious Johnson become a better BJJ practitioner than Wilson Reis. 

Crack that nut and hopefully people will see what I am trying to get at here.


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## Buka (May 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> So what position were you learning this base from.



The positions of when you are in guard, when you have somebody in your guard, cross side position (top), were what we started from. And everything was about base. That's all we heard, base, base, base. (I still hear it in my head in that Portuguese accent. "Your bay-za, your bay-za) At first, punching was focused mostly when you had someone in your guard (closed for me, it's what I like) I can't have anybody in my guard without punching, thinking about punching, or preparing to punch. That and protecting my head, both from him and what might be around me - then maybe submission...if it's there.

I don't really know anything about sport Jiu-jitsu, other than having competed in a couple tournaments. Didn't know what the rules were, still don't. Probably explains my stellar performances. But, man, they sure were a lot fun. Sometimes you have just as much fun getting smoked as you do winning.


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## drop bear (May 9, 2017)

Buka said:


> The positions of when you are in guard, when you have somebody in your guard, cross side position (top), were what we started from. And everything was about base. That's all we heard, base, base, base. (I still hear it in my head in that Portuguese accent. "Your bay-za, your bay-za) At first, punching was focused mostly when you had someone in your guard (closed for me, it's what I like) I can't have anybody in my guard without punching, thinking about punching, or preparing to punch. That and protecting my head, both from him and what might be around me - then maybe submission...if it's there.
> 
> I don't really know anything about sport Jiu-jitsu, other than having competed in a couple tournaments. Didn't know what the rules were, still don't. Probably explains my stellar performances. But, man, they sure were a lot fun. Sometimes you have just as much fun getting smoked as you do winning.



Yeah.  See we do guard because we are learning a comprehensive system. But at no point would we stay in guard unless we are going for submissions. 

Now this is specifically as a supplement to striking and we are trying to get as much bang for our buck here. At which point I wouldnt really prioritise guard.  

In a very simple program. People can't really hit you and stop you from getting up at the same time.  So we abandon the necessity for a guard game and just stand up. During a take down we avoid guard like the plague.  If i flop to a seated. I can start my get up process a lot earlier.

Anti grappling is about making it as hard for BJJ players to do their thing as you can. 

So all of this is trying to say.  When I am talking about sitting on your bum doing submission. You are describing pretty much what I had in mind when I said it.


----------



## Buka (May 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeah.  See we do guard because we are learning a comprehensive system. But at no point would we stay in guard unless we are going for submissions.
> 
> Now this is specifically as a supplement to striking and we are trying to get as much bang for our buck here. At which point I wouldnt really prioritise guard.
> 
> ...



Ah, okay, I see what you're saying now. I'm all in that for that, I'm a striker, I live for the stand up game. nothing I'd rather do - other than take someone down to control them (for work).

As for getting up fast - before we were ever exposed to the ground game (and to this day), we practiced getting up as fast as possible. Not just as a drill itself, but in everything we did. Doing pushups - when the instructor said "up", even if it was in the middle of a set - everyone had to get up like lightning. If the instructor didn't think it fast enough (as a group) you did a zillion more pushups. same thing for sit ups, or for stretching, other than long held split exercises. I always found that when working as a group "getting up fast", it made each individual faster.

But for guard - I'd just as soon strike the hell out of you if I have you in my guard as I would standing up. It doesn't take too many shots. I can also get up quite quickly from having someone in my guard, striking, pushing away, disengaging the legs, rolling back/sideways over a shoulder and getting up. In the time it took to type that damn sentence I'll bet I could have gotten up from guard three damn times.


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## Charlemagne (May 9, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> There in lies the problem with grappling. If you have to go to the ground to shine, will his buddies refrain from kicking you in the face?



That's not a problem with grappling at all.  That's a problem of knowing ONLY grappling.


----------



## drop bear (May 9, 2017)

Buka said:


> Ah, okay, I see what you're saying now. I'm all in that for that, I'm a striker, I live for the stand up game. nothing I'd rather do - other than take someone down to control them (for work).
> 
> As for getting up fast - before we were ever exposed to the ground game (and to this day), we practiced getting up as fast as possible. Not just as a drill itself, but in everything we did. Doing pushups - when the instructor said "up", even if it was in the middle of a set - everyone had to get up like lightning. If the instructor didn't think it fast enough (as a group) you did a zillion more pushups. same thing for sit ups, or for stretching, other than long held split exercises. I always found that when working as a group "getting up fast", it made each individual faster.
> 
> But for guard - I'd just as soon strike the hell out of you if I have you in my guard as I would standing up. It doesn't take too many shots. I can also get up quite quickly from having someone in my guard, striking, pushing away, disengaging the legs, rolling back/sideways over a shoulder and getting up. In the time it took to type that damn sentence I'll bet I could have gotten up from guard three damn times.



You roll out of guard?

Different.

lets keep using the Demetrious Johnston reference here because otherwise finding reference these specific counters is going to be a nightmare.






Ok. 59 seconds in we see a takedown and a takedown defence. That is the sort of never wind up on your back ever ever movement that a striker really wants to know.

It short changes the need to fight from guard unless you are really planted down there. It is almost iconically the difference in mentality between BJJ and wrestling.

Of course in MMA you need both. But for strikers trying to stay on their feet. Having to choose systems. That constant battle to stand up is where you want to be.

At the 2 minute mark you see the reverse option by wilson reis rolling on to the back.


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## jobo (May 10, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Ok. Just for fun here is some street wrestling and punching,weapon defence and multiple oponants from a non fat guy.
> 
> To show you that you may need both tools to deal with agression.
> 
> https://www.jiujitsutimes.com/martial-arts-saved-life-brutal-road-rage-fight/


that not street wrestling, that's what we in England call a fight


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## Tez3 (May 10, 2017)

jobo said:


> that not street wrestling, that's what we in England call a fight



ah now we can see why you 'win' your 'fights'.


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## dunc (May 10, 2017)

Kababayan said:


> Hello everyone,
> I posted this in one of the other threads also, I hope that the mods don't mind. This is my first post here and I am hoping that some of you can help me out with some research. I haven't been on one of these types of forums for years, as back then most of the posts were people just bad-mouthing other martial artists. I am hoping to have a better experience here.  So that I don't drag out explanation before getting to the question, I'll ask it first and then give explanation. I am trying to put together a list of grappling counters to be used after a takedown has happened. *What techniques, if any, have any of you come across that are effective to counter a grappler after a takedown has happened?* Most of what I have seen is about sprawling and not be taken down, but I am looking for the best way to beat a grappler without turning it into a "who's better at BJJ" contest.
> 
> I have a list of what I've seen so far and would like to add to it. I have been training in various martial arts for 35 years, mostly in more traditional arts. About ten years ago I began training in various "reality based self defense" to fill in the self defense gaps that my traditional arts have.  I found Krav Maga about four years ago. I recently got my Black Belt in Krav, and as much as I love it, most of the grappling defense techniques are effective against basic grapplers. I am looking for something that will work even with very experienced grapplers. I know that the easiest response would be to learn to grapple better but, as a stand up fighter, I don't want to rely on having to out grapple an experienced grappler. Plus at my age training full time in BJJ isn't an option anymore. I do have some grappling experience (about a year at Gracies and 10th Planet combined) so I do know the terminology and moves. I am more focusing on hitting them with something they don't expect. Any help is greatly appreciated.  Here is what I have collected so far.  Three of the four I saw occur during "friendly" Jiu Jitsu matches (not street fights.)  The Vunak bite (kina mutay) was taught to me when I trained with Paul and some of his students.
> ...



Trying to answer the OP's question directly as I've been there

I'd start by saying that I've spent most of my life training in traditional arts that have a focus on surviving dangerous situations. These do have some ground work, but it's a fairly limited curriculum

I experimented a lot with an experienced BJJ guy (purple) and found that, whilst I consistently found something to escape with, I didn't have sufficient structure and ability to move on the ground to either cope with a more experienced grappler or provide more "back up plans" if I screwed up

So I've been cross training in BJJ to build a stronger foundation on the ground

In my view some of the techniques that you're quoting above aren't going to get you that far. I'd focus on learning::

- Grip releases: Quite straightforward when you add strikes to the arms, but they do require practice in a resistive environment if wearing a jacket
- Defending lapel chokes and arm bars by positioning yourself correctly (cover your lapel, elbows in etc). You're going to need some defensive positions to buy time for an escape
- Standing when you're caught in closed guard: You'll need to work on your positioning/grips to prevent getting your structure being taken first. Once you've established the standing posture/position you can add strikes (best to hit the inside of the thighs/hips to open the guard), and make sure you learn how to prevent sweeps
- Arching and moving up to escape a back control. You can strike the legs to help release the hooks, but you'll likely need to be defending a choke so they have some limitations. Probably you'll end up being mounted unless you train this a lot
- Knee to elbow mount escape to ankle lock/heel hook. It's a banker
- Arm trap and roll mount escape - followed by the closed guard escapes above
- One or two ways to replace the guard from side control. If you can get your shin or feet into play then you can create some distance for strikes which may allow you to disengage and stand again
- Technical stand ups

My recommendation is to take these, work on the structure with resistance, then add strikes, dirty tricks etc to augment the overall movement

Hope this helps


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## JP3 (May 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I have this dream that i will just take 5 guys to every self defence class I can find. And when the instructor demonstrates a move just jump him.
> 
> And then go.
> 
> "Ahah.. but it doesn't work when all his friends turn up does it?"


I just had this funny image, video really, play through my mind doing just that.  Sort of like Bruce's movie, the Big Boss, when he goes intot he school and whomps everyone, but with the school converted to a seminar environment with Drop out on the mat waiting his turn to be the demonstration uke/dummy....

and then... Wham!.  Jab, cross, body hook, double-leg, blast, mount, inside position and ground & pound  rat a tat tat tat tat tat (had to get to 7 strikes), nifty dive roll off the side and the group fights its way out of the stunned seminar.

Someone want to write a screenplay?


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 13, 2017)

TonyU said:


> Ok, fair enough, but in my line of work I can't afford to let my opponent "win!"



Exactly TonyU and even as a civilian if you are carrying ccw you can't afford to lose either!  Fortunately in your profession you usually have help coming or already there!


----------



## drop bear (May 13, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I just had this funny image, video really, play through my mind doing just that.  Sort of like Bruce's movie, the Big Boss, when he goes intot he school and whomps everyone, but with the school converted to a seminar environment with Drop out on the mat waiting his turn to be the demonstration uke/dummy....
> 
> and then... Wham!.  Jab, cross, body hook, double-leg, blast, mount, inside position and ground & pound  rat a tat tat tat tat tat (had to get to 7 strikes), nifty dive roll off the side and the group fights its way out of the stunned seminar.
> 
> Someone want to write a screenplay?



It has been done in a terrible movie called ninja Academy. The master aks for five guys to spar with, mauls them then counts to four.

No. five smacks him in the nuts from behind.


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## drop bear (May 13, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Exactly TonyU and even as a civilian if you are carrying ccw you can't afford to lose either!  Fortunately in your profession you usually have help coming or already there!



Nice idea. Doesn't change the method.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 13, 2017)

Well Drop Bear the method may not change based on your training but your mindset better be in a different place.  If I am carrying and someone disables me then they can take my firearm and use it not only against me but against other individuals including my family.  So that does change the situation from simple bar fight where the fighters have more of a dominance monkey type mindset.   Were they might be happy just being the dominant person rather than potentially killing you and or killing other people.


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## drop bear (May 14, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well Drop Bear the method may not change based on your training but your mindset better be in a different place.  If I am carrying and someone disables me then they can take my firearm and use it not only against me but against other individuals including my family.  So that does change the situation from simple bar fight where the fighters have more of a dominance monkey type mindset.   Were they might be happy just being the dominant person rather than potentially killing you and or killing other people.



It might change the mindset about whether or not you should carry.

But i haven't met many people who have gone into a fight hoping to loose. 

But ok specifically how does your training ajust from say just getting bashed to being killed?


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## Charlemagne (May 14, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Exactly TonyU and even as a civilian if you are carrying ccw you can't afford to lose either!  Fortunately in your profession you usually have help coming or already there!



Not always as fast as one might think, unfortunately.  A good example of needing to know grappling (though I know you are already a believer).


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## Charlemagne (May 14, 2017)

Grappling with a firearm.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> It might change the mindset about whether or not you should carry.
> 
> But i haven't met many people who have gone into a fight hoping to loose.
> 
> But ok specifically how does your training ajust from say just getting bashed to being killed?


*
You are right in that no one wants to lose a fight.*  However, in a as Rory Miller likes to say a "monkey dance" or a fight for dominance and status someone in general will be beaten down and then put in their place.  This in general doesn't necessarily include then killing them.  The same cannot be said for some other forms of violence where the end goal can include intention of maiming or killing.  If you are a law enforcement officer, military, civilian carrying a ccw, etc. you actually when involved in an altercation have the potential for it to become a lethal confrontation right from the get go because of the tools you are carrying.  If an LEO loses a physical confrontation his firearm is available to the resisting criminal and his life is in danger and potentially other people's lives are also now in danger.  Hence why TonyU said he can't afford to lose.  That is simply not an option if you are carrying a firearm.

*So let's talk about training and how tactics have to change*.  Let's just take for instance the idea that you carry a firearm on your strong side.  In my case that would be my right side as I am right handed.  My grappling has to account for this.  I have to blade or keep that side back to keep my handgun to the back and away from my opponent.  I have to have retention skills for this firearm in case the individual tries to grab it. If I engage and we are on the ground I cannot or should not pass to my right side because it brings the firearm right to my opponents field of vision and right where his hands are.  Everything I do will be to maximize my protection of that firearm as well as create the necessary space to utilize it if necessary all while dominating the grappling encounter without using it unless needed.  These are things in my grappling that are optimized whether it is for using a non-lethal or lethal tool.  So the mindset will be different because I am bringing a potentially lethal tool into the environment when carrying a firearm or a knife.

The above should also make it even more of a reason why an individual with a firearm should avoid conflict unless their job requires them to handle conflict such as an LEO, soldier, etc.  If you carry for work or as a civilian you should have really good awareness, avoidance and de-escalation skills so that you can avoid violence where possible.


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## JP3 (May 14, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well Drop Bear the method may not change based on your training but your mindset better be in a different place.  If I am carrying and someone disables me then they can take my firearm and use it not only against me but against other individuals including my family.  So that does change the situation from simple bar fight where the fighters have more of a dominance monkey type mindset.   Were they might be happy just being the dominant person rather than potentially killing you and or killing other people.


I get that, but wouldn't that also be an argument to Not carry?

Sorry, distinct thread re-route possible here, feel free to ignore this sub-topic if you want.

If the mere act of carrying a personal protection handgun in concealed-carry means that you are actually, and in a weird sort of schizoid split between intentionally/unintentionally actually driving the level of contestation/aggression upwards, then is that not a bad idea?

Note, I'm not saying do not go concealed-carry, that's not it.  I personally don't carry, but that's because of the same thing I've got about spending time training with weapons -- with my kind of luck, the one time ever that I'd need it, it'll be at the other end of the couch or some such and then I'd have screwed myself since I put myself in an unarmed situation but mis-spent my training.

What I'm trying to convey, probably ineffectually, is the mindset of thinking that "I have to up the ante just because I'm carrying and maybe my weapon could be under the control of someone I don't want it to be when with friends or family, and therefore sort of forcing myself to engage at a higher level instead of the appropriate level, might be a bit... improperly perceived?


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 14, 2017)

*Certainly that is a viable reason why someone would not carry*.  JP3 that is a choice every individual has to make based on their mental preparation for conflict.  It is a big responsibility to carry a firearm.  As a firearms instructor I personally imply this when I teach.  It is very unfortunate that most people pass a ccw course and never train and do not understand just how big this responsibility is.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 14, 2017)

I would add that if you carry concealed you should have really good awareness, avoidance and de-escalation skills so that you hopefully never have to engage in violence.  The Friday night fight for fun simply shouldn't happen.  Violence shouldn't be taken lightly and you should avoid it whenever possible unless of course your profession requires you to engage.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 14, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I get that, but wouldn't that also be an argument to Not carry?
> 
> Sorry, distinct thread re-route possible here, feel free to ignore this sub-topic if you want.
> 
> ...


This is part of why I don't carry. It's not necessarily an argument against carrying  in general. For some people their profession or their life circumstances are such that the potential advantages of having  a lethal weapon at hand outweigh the potential downsides. For myself, in almost 53 years of life I have been in a few violent confrontations, but I have never been in a situation where I needed a lethal weapon. I have been in a few situations where having a lethal weapon on my person might have made things worse. The potential for escalating the stakes that you mention is one of those factors which might have led to bad outcomes.

At this point in my life, I don't see my circumstances becoming more dangerous to the point where carrying a lethal weapon carries more benefits than risks. If they ever do, I'm open to revisiting my options.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 14, 2017)

You have one. I have one too. Can we have peace?


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## drop bear (May 14, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I get that, but wouldn't that also be an argument to Not carry?
> 
> Sorry, distinct thread re-route possible here, feel free to ignore this sub-topic if you want.
> 
> ...



There were a few times I had to put the mag light away going in to a fight for that reason. If I had it I would pretty much have to bash dudes with it. 

It is not a good grappling tool.


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## drop bear (May 14, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *You are right in that no one wants to lose a fight.*  However, in a as Rory Miller likes to say a "monkey dance" or a fight for dominance and status someone in general will be beaten down and then put in their place.  This in general doesn't necessarily include then killing them.  The same cannot be said for some other forms of violence where the end goal can include intention of maiming or killing.  If you are a law enforcement officer, military, civilian carrying a ccw, etc. you actually when involved in an altercation have the potential for it to become a lethal confrontation right from the get go because of the tools you are carrying.  If an LEO loses a physical confrontation his firearm is available to the resisting criminal and his life is in danger and potentially other people's lives are also now in danger.  Hence why TonyU said he can't afford to lose.  That is simply not an option if you are carrying a firearm.
> 
> *So let's talk about training and how tactics have to change*.  Let's just take for instance the idea that you carry a firearm on your strong side.  In my case that would be my right side as I am right handed.  My grappling has to account for this.  I have to blade or keep that side back to keep my handgun to the back and away from my opponent.  I have to have retention skills for this firearm in case the individual tries to grab it. If I engage and we are on the ground I cannot or should not pass to my right side because it brings the firearm right to my opponents field of vision and right where his hands are.  Everything I do will be to maximize my protection of that firearm as well as create the necessary space to utilize it if necessary all while dominating the grappling encounter without using it unless needed.  These are things in my grappling that are optimized whether it is for using a non-lethal or lethal tool.  So the mindset will be different because I am bringing a potentially lethal tool into the environment when carrying a firearm or a knife.
> 
> The above should also make it even more of a reason why an individual with a firearm should avoid conflict unless their job requires them to handle conflict such as an LEO, soldier, etc.  If you carry for work or as a civilian you should have really good awareness, avoidance and de-escalation skills so that you can avoid violence where possible.



Tactics that specifically protect tools make sense. I am having a mental run down of grappling techniques. And sloppyness would expose your gun. Can't think of much else.

Actually side control on their left hand side might give an opening. But I tend to scarf or Kesa gatame on the streets because it is easier on the knees.

Mount would have to be pretty lazy to get a gun.

Any escapes you should be underhooking the near arm to death.

Anyhow. So the mental difference seems to be avoidance rather than a tactical difference. Which was what confused me. I mean I would love to not afford to lose but generaly the situation has the final say in that.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 14, 2017)

What kind of self-protection do you have when you ride bike in the middle of nowhere?


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## drop bear (May 14, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What kind of self-protection do you have when you ride bike in the middle of nowhere?



Jump on a survival forum one day for a laugh.

"What gun should I take swimming?"

not joking here.
Question of the Day: How Do You Pool Carry? - The Truth About Guns


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> "What gun should I take swimming?"


This is why some weapon are designed to be used under water. You put your finger through the loop so you can still swim with your hand and you won't lose your weapon under water.


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## drop bear (May 14, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why some weapon are designed to be used under water. You put your finger through the loop so you can still swim with your hand and you won't lose your weapon under water.



The best weapon to carry While swimming is being Australian.







No Cookies | The Courier Mail


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