# Teen May Be Suspended for Prom Attendance



## MA-Caver (May 10, 2009)

Hopefully this won't degenerate into a flame throwing they're right, they're wrong type discussion but it could use some discussion. 
My first thoughts are ... they STILL walk among us... the stupids... in this case an entire school board. 


> *Ohio teen expects to be suspended for trip to prom*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Granted it is a private school and thus have the right to subject it's students attending to whatever rules they see fit. If the students/parents don't like them then they can simply drop out and go mainstream. 

But their rules should ONLY apply to THEIR school and the grounds. Outside their property they shouldn't control their students. The students should decide to follow the rules and standards set OUTSIDE the school's property lines. Yet this bunch wants to maintain it's fascism like sphere of influence over their students beyond those lines. 
The father will be totally in the right I feel in pursuing a legal course should the boy be suspended, in spite of the fact the school is willing to let him finish out and get his diploma but only separately from the rest of his graduating class. 
It's a sticky to be sure.


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## grydth (May 10, 2009)

This school forbids hand holding and dancing? (Holy Footloose, Batman!) Are you sure on the name of this school? Is it Heritage Christian School or Heritage Taliban School?

Ever notice the eerie similarities between the religious extremists of all types and countries?

Odd thing is that the school will likely triumph - I bet they laid out the policy pretty clearly and the kid and parents knew it when they signed up.


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## arnisador (May 10, 2009)

Well, this school has its rules...but yeah, religious extremists they are. They need to inch into the 19th century...


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## Archangel M (May 10, 2009)

Footloose Lives!!


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## stone_dragone (May 10, 2009)

I fully believe that the school is convinced that they are right.

Hitler was pretty sure he was right, too.

As one who shys away from the term "Fundamentalist" as a Christian, I struggle to find this religious body's totalitarian tactics as anything but a representation of the inbreeding that leads to cults and fresh mixed kool-aid in 5 gallon containers.  

I am significantly more pragmatic as a follower of Christ...does anyone who isn't a Christian want to become one when they hear these stories?

I didn't think so.


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## arnisador (May 10, 2009)

Well, the Godwin reference is not necessary here, I think...but otherwise, I agree.

And while going to a private school is voluntary in one sense, he's a minor and in that sense he can't really enter into a contract with them. He's subject to his parents' desire/willingness to send him to this cult's training grounds.


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## Gordon Nore (May 10, 2009)

This is quite disturbing. I suppose if the school has made these rules understood when they enrolled the young man, they can pursue this course.


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## girlbug2 (May 10, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> But their rules should ONLY apply to THEIR school and the grounds. Outside their property they shouldn't control their students..


 
I completely agree. I would wonder at the legality of any contract where the school attempts to exert influence/pressure on students outside of school grounds. Isn't that a form of slavery?


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## CuongNhuka (May 11, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> I completely agree. I would wonder at the legality of any contract where the school attempts to exert influence/pressure on students outside of school grounds. Isn't that a form of slavery?


 
It could be looked at like that. However, Public Schools do the same thing. If you break school rules off school grounds, you can (and will) get in trouble anyway. 

Also, if you get into a fight at a bar, and get arrested for it, your employer could fire you because someone could associate what you did with the company. It's all very stupid....


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## Omar B (May 11, 2009)

Funny how this religious school is trying to control this kid outside of their walls, guess since they think god is everywhere so should their rules.


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## Thems Fighting Words (May 11, 2009)

If he was acting as a representative of the school in some manner, then I guess he's got few options. If not than the school has little business in what he was doing. Then again, maybe the school considers all its students as being school representative all the time.


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## ShelleyK (May 11, 2009)

On the schools website the principle has made a statement concerning all the emails they have been getting...he also likes to quote a LOT of scripture...I can understand that, given that its a religious school...but I dont think much of what he quoted had anything to do with the kid at the dance...at least not directly.
He also said  "should a Christian place themselves at an event where young ladies will have low cut dresses and be dancing in them?"  Well doesnt the bible say "sing and dance unto the lord"  At least MY bible says that.
Now Im not a religious person by any means but I have read the bible, I went to church and sunday school...and Im sorry but these fundamentalists...are really MENTAL!!


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## Bill Mattocks (May 11, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> But their rules should ONLY apply to THEIR school and the grounds. Outside their property they shouldn't control their students.



When people do things outside of work that their employer does not find acceptable, the result is often loss of employment.  And that's without a specific set of rules that say what an employee may or may not do off-duty.

In some places, employers have specific rules regarding what employees may do off-duty.  For example, use drugs.  In one famous case here in Michigan, an employer who self-insures employees health care forbid employees from smoking on or off the job, and fires people found to be smokers.  The Supreme Court says that is perfectly legal.

I would agree that the school is a bit whack.  But then, that's not my religion, not my school.  I believe they get to set the rules, and if students or parents do not wish to abide by them, they can leave.  No one is forcing them to stay.

Sorry, I'm with the school on this one.  Do I think they're being 19th Centurty throwbacks?  Sure.  Do I think they have that right?  Yep.


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## clfsean (May 11, 2009)

I'd tell the school to eat a booger & gimme my diploma. If they're an accredited school & graduation requirements have been met, screw'em. Gimme the paper & while you force your rules on those who walk, I'm going to the beach.

Seriously.


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## Brian Jones (May 11, 2009)

Nope Sorry,
 I have to agree with the school on this one.  I disagree with their viewpoints on dancign and hand holding. Scripturally they don't hold water, in my opinion. 
    However no one is forcing this young man to attend that school. he could attend Findlay or some other school that has open enrollment (There are several good schools in the area) This young man, or I assume his parents, made the decision to voluntarily enroll in this school and therefore must have been in agreement with their philosophy. 
   They knew the rules going in, and the consequences for breaking them.  If he wants to go to the prom, fine but he can't whine about what happens because of his decision. I love all the comments indicating "I would do what I want and then force them to give me my diploma".  Sorry the real world doesn't work that way. It won't work for him in college or when he gets a job. Your Principles, College Presidents and employers have a right to put expectations on you. That's just life.

Brian Jones


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## Tez3 (May 11, 2009)

ShelleyK said:


> On the schools website the principle has made a statement concerning all the emails they have been getting...he also likes to quote a LOT of scripture...I can understand that, given that its a religious school...but I dont think much of what he quoted had anything to do with the kid at the dance...at least not directly.
> *He also said "should a Christian place themselves at an event where young ladies will have low cut dresses and be dancing in them?"* Well doesnt the bible say "sing and dance unto the lord" At least MY bible says that.
> Now Im not a religious person by any means but I have read the bible, I went to church and sunday school...and Im sorry but these fundamentalists...are really MENTAL!!


 

Well if the 'Christian' has been brought up properly and goes to a place like that he will behave himself properly won't he lol! it always amazes me that these people preach, teach and generally rant on about stuff yet have absolutely no faith in anyone ever doing the right thing. You bring your children up properly without brainwashing them and they will do the right thing, if not they will learn from doing the wrong thing with your support. 
You're right, they really are mental ...with a disturbing penchance for thinking about sex alot!


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## Bill Mattocks (May 11, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> I completely agree. I would wonder at the legality of any contract where the school attempts to exert influence/pressure on students outside of school grounds. Isn't that a form of slavery?



Employers do it all the time.  Is that a form of slavery?

If it were a public school, I might have an issue with it, but as a private school, I think they're free to set whatever hare-brained rules they want.  Doesn't mean I agree with their rules, but the student's family is free to remove him from that school and its rules if they wish.


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## stone_dragone (May 11, 2009)

Brian Jones said:


> However no one is forcing this young man to attend that school. he could attend Findlay or some other school that has open enrollment (There are several good schools in the area) This young man, or I assume his parents, made the decision to voluntarily enroll in this school and therefore must have been in agreement with their philosophy.



Unfortunately, it has been my vicarious experience through numerous family members (cousins) and other individuals that I have either known through church or socially who personally attended or enrolled their children in various private Christian schools in the NW Pennsylvania / NE Ohio region that the education is often not even close to what would be acceptable for a public school...  lower state mandated standardized test scores, lack of basic understanding of many scientific principles and a general inability to learn anything that doesn't pass the "My preacher says it" test.  

It's possible that going to the other school would be more to his detriment (relative to graduating, anyway) than staying in the Fundamental-Extremist cult school.  BTW, The difference between Fundamentalist and Fundamental Extremist is a big one and not one that I have time for right now

I understand that not all Christian schools provide substandard education, and I apologize for any offense that may have been taken on my observations.


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## Flea (May 11, 2009)

From one of my all-time favorite movies ...

[yt]umLUKBlpyoY&feature[/yt]


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 11, 2009)

I think some people are so anti religion, or so scared of religious extremism that they jump off the handle at the simple addition of the word religious or spiritual in any way.
Take that out of the equation here and think about this..

A Private Company has rules that every member of that company agree too before becoming a member. The membership is voluntary, and has a high cost associated with being a member. That member then goes and voluntarily breaks the rules, and the company decides to punish him for it.

Is this so wrong? They are not kicking the kid out of school... they are not erasing his hard work for the last four years... they are simply suspending him from classes, forcing him to miss the graduation ceremony, and then making him take his final exams and give him his diploma afterwards.

What is so wrong with that?

I really despise the entitlement attitude that so many people have, they believe simply because they exist that they are entitled to anything they want under any circumstance.... 

Please stop trying to tell private companies what to do, how to do it, and maybe spend more time worrying why the public school system is such a disaster.. Why Los Angelos high school kids have a higher percentage chance of dropping out of school then they do of graduating high school... how Public schools cost up to 4 times the amount per student that private schools do, and show very little other then negatives for it.


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## arnisador (May 11, 2009)

Brian Jones said:


> I have to agree with the school on this one.  I disagree with their viewpoints on dancign and hand holding. Scripturally they don't hold water, in my opinion.
> However no one is forcing this young man to attend that school. he could attend Findlay or some other school that has open enrollment (There are several good schools in the area) This young man, *or I assume his parents*, made the decision to voluntarily enroll in this school



That's a big part of the point. If an adult chooses to go to Bob Jones University, that's one thing. But this minor's parents are sending him to a school that severely restricts his rights as a condition of enrolment. That I have some issues with.


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## celtic_crippler (May 11, 2009)

It's a private school, the family is aware of their rules and were reminded. He broke the rules. It's that simple. 

It's not fair to make a judgement assaigning your value system to the situation. Though you may not agree with their beliefs, reason dictates you must accept their values are what apply in this situation. Consider that it would be extremely strange for this family to enroll their child in a school, especially a religeous based school, that did not mirror their own beliefs. Therefore, they should have expected negative repercussions. 

Personally I think the school's rules are ridiculous but if you believe in freedom of choice then you have to accept freedom of consequences. 

The student has no argument and must accept the school's decision IMHO.


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## CuongNhuka (May 11, 2009)

ShelleyK said:


> Well doesnt the bible say "sing and dance unto the lord" At least MY bible says that.


 
Dancing was a sin for a while (like 100 years I think)


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## Ken Morgan (May 11, 2009)

There are a few separate issues here.

Its a private school. Hence a private organization that sets its own rules. (I dont know what the rules are south of the border, but up here private schools still have a set minimum curriculum they have to teach.)
The student attended; yes his parents enrolled him, of his/their own free will.
Does the school maintain authority over the student outside of school property? Its a school sponsored event, does that count? On a school trip he would need to act accordingly as a representative of the school.
You cant just follow the rules you like or agree with, if you are putting yourself in a private group, you need to follow the generally applicable rules.
 
While I strongly disagree with religious based schools, and religion in general, this is not about that. This is about the application of rules outside of school grounds, outside of school property. I feel that in general the school is crazy, however they have the right to implement and interpret their rules as they see fit. The school is crazy, but correct in their actions.


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## ShelleyK (May 11, 2009)

CuongNhuka said:


> Dancing was a sin for a while (like 100 years I think)



Key word.. *WAS*


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## shihansmurf (May 11, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Employers do it all the time. Is that a form of slavery?
> 
> If it were a public school, I might have an issue with it, but as a private school, I think they're free to set whatever hare-brained rules they want. Doesn't mean I agree with their rules, but the student's family is free to remove him from that school and its rules if they wish.


 
I gotta back Bill up on this one. The parents had to know going into this what the rules were at this school and they chose to allow their son to violate them knowing ahead of time that there would be consequences. If the kid didn't want to face those consequences he should have made a different choice.

At the end of the day this is a private institution that the boy is a voluntary member of.  Its not like this is a public school that is attempting this sort of thing. The boy doesn't have a right to a private education. He, or his family, chose this baggage for him when they elected to choose the benefits of a private education over a public one.  Seems like they want their cake and to be able to eat it as well.  

He made his bed, let him lie in it. 

He has a girlfriend to keep him company, afterall.

Mark


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 11, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> The parents had to know going into this what the rules were at this school and they chose to allow their son to violate them knowing ahead of time that there would be consequences. If the kid didn't want to face those consequences he should have made a different choice.
> 
> At the end of the day this is a private institution that the boy is a voluntary member of. Its not like this is a public school that is attempting this sort of thing. The boy doesn't have a right to a private education. He, or his family, chose this baggage for him when they elected to choose the benefits of a private education over a public one. Seems like they want their cake and to be able to eat it as well.
> 
> ...


 
I think alot of people are working off of part of the story only.
Just to make a couple things clear here..
The student signed a voluntary code of conduct before entering the school year that stated things he would not participate in anywhere.
The student and the parents and the school all knew about the kid going to the prom before the event happened. The rules and the consequences were squarely on the table, everyone knew what they were, agreed what they were, and went forward with going to the prom anyways.
The school did not expell him, or erase his work. All they have done is forbidden him from taking part in the graduation ceremony, and suspending him from the end of the school year, but will allow him to take his tests and get his diploma.

When all the facts are out there, I find it really hard to find a problem, other then a disagreement with their chosen code of conduct.... but thats not my decision to make.


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## Twin Fist (May 11, 2009)

I gotta go with the school.

they had rules

kid knew rules

kid broke rules

sorry, the world isnt Burger King, you cant have it your way.


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## arnisador (May 11, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> At the end of the day this is a private institution that the boy is a voluntary member of.



That's not clear. He's a minor. His parents may be sending him to a school where he'll be forced to miss many of the standard rites of young adulthood--at least one of which was obviously important to him.

If he was an adult at a religious college, full agreement with you. But how far can a parent go in restricting their kids' rights? Is it mandatory that he still be in school at 17 in that state? You simply can't say that as a minor what he's doing is voluntary. He may hate the place.


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## Carol (May 11, 2009)

I don't have anything against Protestants, or Protestant schools.  However, such education is a product that is bought and sold like everything else on the free market.   The people that are buying are parents that are generally looking for this kind of school that incorporates staunch discipline like this one is.  

Perhaps the boy clearly know he was to do no dancing, no where, no how.  But, he went to prom anyway and got in trouble by his own bragging, or because someone ratted him out.  This was not clear by the article.  If that's the case, then I think the boy needs to take responsibility for his actions.  That doesn't bother me.

What does bother me is if this is all basically a marketing effort.  If the school has a policy that is more vague, and they are trying to make an example out of him to show potential "buyers" that they have tough disciplinary standards, then I think that is wrong.


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## shihansmurf (May 11, 2009)

arnisador said:


> That's not clear. He's a minor. His parents may be sending him to a school where he'll be forced to miss many of the standard rites of young adulthood--at least one of which was obviously important to him.
> 
> If he was an adult at a religious college, full agreement with you. But how far can a parent go in restricting their kids' rights? Is it mandatory that he still be in school at 17 in that state? You simply can't say that as a minor what he's doing is voluntary. He may hate the place.



I'm not sure about what the law specifically says about how far a parent can go in restricting a minors "rights", but I'm of the opinion that if we hold the parents accountable for the actions of the child and the child's welfare to the degree that we allow the parent to make decisions for the child such as where they will attend school then at that point I'd consider that as voluntary attendance.

Too ofter we hear the lament after a child, which is what we are talking about here a 17 year old child, commits a crime of "Where were the parents?" , but then we are steadily  eroding parental authority in our culture. This isn't a comment aimed at you,  so no offense is intended, but I'm always amazed at how often I hear the cries of "The Children Have rights". Insofar as they have the right not to be abused,  I concur, but as to miss prom, life sucks, deal and move on. Mom and Dad made a choice for him that they thought was in his best interest. When he is an adult(shortly, in this case) he can make whatever choices he wants and more power to him. I think he just got a damn good lesson in accountability and responsibility for our actions. He knew the what would happen if he attended prom with this girl, went anyway, and is getting a slap on the wrist. It ain't the first time a kid has gotten in trouble over a girl, and I'm sure it won't be the last. Good object lesson.

Mark


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## arnisador (May 11, 2009)

I'd say good for him for standing up for himself, personally!


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## Archangel M (May 11, 2009)

If Im responsible for my kids actions (legally) till hes 18 then..no my decisions trump his desires.

Parenthood isnt a democracy.


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## Brian Jones (May 12, 2009)

arnisador said:


> That's a big part of the point. If an adult chooses to go to Bob Jones University, that's one thing. But this minor's parents are sending him to a school that severely restricts his rights as a condition of enrolment. That I have some issues with.


 
Restricting your child's "rights" are a big part of parenting.  I enjoy rights as an adult my chidlren do not because they are not ready, nor mature enough to make those decisions.


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## Brian Jones (May 12, 2009)

CuongNhuka said:


> Dancing was a sin for a while (like 100 years I think)


 
Actually no It wasn't.


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## arnisador (May 12, 2009)

Brian Jones said:


> Restricting your child's "rights" are a big part of parenting.  I enjoy rights as an adult my chidlren do not because they are not ready, nor mature enough to make those decisions.



At what point is the line of reasonableness crossed? A dance is just a dance, but this sounds like a pretty restrictive group.


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## Andrew Green (May 12, 2009)

Brian Jones said:


> Restricting your child's "rights" are a big part of parenting.  I enjoy rights as an adult my chidlren do not because they are not ready, nor mature enough to make those decisions.



People under 18 are still people, and still deserve freedoms.

Take away enough of those freedoms and everyone agrees it is child abuse.

Telling a 17-year old that they are not allowed physical contact with the opposite sex, are not allowed to dance, are not allowed to listen to anything but gospel music, etc.  Basically telling them that if they don't suppress a good chunk of their strongest natural desires and feeling they are bad people and will be punished in this life, and the next is riding that line pretty close (if it hasn't crossed it) IMO.


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## arnisador (May 12, 2009)

*Suspended for Dancing*



> Despite this, Frost has no regrets, saying that attending his special lady's prom was both "worth the risk" and "the right decision." Frost's stepfather was also there for the interview. He didn't say much before leaving in the middle of the discussion, but he did mention that a lawsuit against the school is in the works.



And at the other end of the spectrum:

*Pa. high school orders shot glasses as prom favors*



> A Pennsylvania high school ordered more than 450 shot glasses for its prom, a move the assistant principal now says sent the wrong message.
> 
> As the Warwick High School students left last week's dance, the prom committee handed them souvenir shot glasses.


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## ShelleyK (May 12, 2009)

arnisador said:


> *Suspended for Dancing*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats actually not uncommon!  I actually have a couple of shot glasses from 2 proms I went to as a teen!


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## arnisador (May 12, 2009)

Wow, where were girls like you when I was in high school!!!


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## ShelleyK (May 12, 2009)

LOL I think maybe in kindergarten???


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## CuongNhuka (May 13, 2009)

Brian Jones said:


> Actually no It wasn't.


 
I don't think it was the Catholic Church, but yes it was.


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