# Martial Artist, what does that mean?



## Xue Sheng (Jul 23, 2015)

I have been thinking about this and I keep hearing the speech in my head from Han (Kan Shih) from "Enter the Dragon"



> Gentlemen, welcome. You honor our island. I look forward to a tournament of truly epic proportions. We are unique, gentlemen, in that we create ourselves... through long years of rigorous training, sacrifice, denial, pain. We forge our bodies in the fire of our will. But tonight, let us celebrate. Gentlemen, you have our gratitude.



And I think of the training regimes of the guys like Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, Billy Blanks, Bruce Lee, Bob Wall, Benny “the jet” Urquidez, or people like Masutatsu Oyama, Jigoro Kano, Ueshiba Morihei, Li Luoneng, Sun Lutang, Ip Mann, and coutless others

Is this what it takes to truly call yourself a martial artist, to legitimately be a marital artists



> create ourselves... through long years of rigorous training, sacrifice, denial, pain. We forge our bodies in the fire of our will.



and if so are any of us truly martial artists, or are we simply hobbyists

What are your thoughts on this?


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## pgsmith (Jul 23, 2015)

If you are going to worry about definitions, then the Oxford English Dictionary defines "martial artist" as   





> A person who practises a martial art.


  It goes on to define martial art as 





> Chiefly in _pl._ Any of various disciplines or sports, mainly of East Asian origin, which arose as forms of self-defence or attack, such as judo, karate, kendo, kung fu, and tae kwon do. In quot. 1920 more generally: the fighting arts of the warrior. Freq. _attrib._



  Has nothing to do with how hard or how often a person trains.

  I try never to define anything too closely, I just go out and do what I do without worrying about it.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 23, 2015)

Not really worried about it, just in a philosophical mood today


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## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2015)

Define sacrifice, denial, etc.  Have you trained rather than done something else?  Trained when you didn't want to?  Trained even though you were sore, hurting, sick?

To me, the line between hobbyist and martial artist or martial practitioner or whatever wording you want to use to signify a "serious" martial artist comes in how the martial arts expand into their life.  The hobbyist goes to class on Monday & Wednesday.  Maybe practices a few minutes here and there but doesn't really dedicate time outside class.  But it's just "a thing" and you could pretty much substitute bowling, basketball, camera club, whatever, and not see any difference.  That more serious martial artist?  Cut the martial arts out, and you see holes.  Not just a schedule gap and closet space, but holes outside of that schedule.  

Of course, there's a range in that serious level, too.  Some it's a very big factor, and they build their life around their training.  Others, it's just a "big part of who they are."  Please take note, though... this isn't necessarily about money.  You can be a serious martial artist and not make a dime at it... or maybe you make your living teaching the arts.


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## Danny T (Jul 23, 2015)

Are you defining a martial artist by the movie script, by how some who have trained in the martial arts trained, or by dictionary. Some are hobbyists, some are lifestylists. But if one trains and is skilled in a martial art then he/she is a martial artist. Not all are the same


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 23, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Are you defining a martial artist by the movie script, by how some who have trained in the martial arts trained, or by dictionary. Some are hobbyists, some are lifestylists. But if one trains and is skilled in a martial art then he/she is a martial artist. Not all are the same



No, I am not defining it by a movie definition, I am not actually defining it at all, I am asking what does it mean to be a martial artist.


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## Steve (Jul 23, 2015)

I say we keep it simple and refer to anyone who trains in a martial art is a martial artist.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 23, 2015)

Then if they train once a week, once a month once every 6 months... are they still a martial artist? If they train exclusively by watching YouTube Videos...are they still a martial artists? If they make up their own style based on movies and DVDs or train with only DVDs...are they still a martial artist?


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## Blindside (Jul 23, 2015)

As far as I am concerned if you think you study martial arts you can call yourself a martial artist.  You might suck, but you get the title anyway.  

At what point does someone become a tennis player?  I would say about the time they had a free match with someone else.  Many so called martial arts never get to the point of actually fighting and they get to take the title for themselves so I say we expand it to the newbiest of newbies.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 23, 2015)

IMO, the term "martial artist" has to do with "侠 (Xia) - knight" that you are willing to help others even if it may put your own life in dangerous.


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## donald1 (Jul 23, 2015)

I dont know... I call my self s martial artist, I practice kata, bunkai, kumite, kobudo and other forms. I may never compare myself to people like matsumura sokon or higaonna kanryo ,but I dont need to. I practice, I take it seriously, I put in the effort and dont give up. I believe I am. Im sure you all think you are martial artists too.

Like what steve said, a simple answer sounds good. I guess anyone who practices the arts could say they too are martial arts.

In my opinion it seems like the same. Hobbyist/martial artist. Having interest in it simply motivates the person to want to further martial arts.

EDIT: like the philosopher rené decartes once said "I think therefor I am" (cogito ergo sum)


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## Steve (Jul 23, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Then if they train once a week, once a month once every 6 months... are they still a martial artist? If they train exclusively by watching YouTube Videos...are they still a martial artists? If they make up their own style based on movies and DVDs or train with only DVDs...are they still a martial artist?


Sure.   Why not?  Might not be very skilled martial artists. 

Is someone who plays a guitar a musician?  I'd say so, even if they don't play all that well.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 23, 2015)

donald1 said:


> .
> 
> EDIT: like the philosopher rené decartes once said "I think therefor I am" (cogito ergo sum)



I kick therefore I'm a martial artist


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 23, 2015)

Steve said:


> Sure.   Why not?  Might not be very skilled martial artists.
> 
> Is someone who plays a guitar a musician?  I'd say so, even if they don't play all that well.



I disagree, I played guitar (I was so-so), but I never called myself a musician, nor did I, or do I call someone a musician who is just learning, they are a student of music, but not a musician. I play didgeridoo and I am pretty good at it, still don't think I'm a musician. I am learning the Ukulele and I still do not call myself a musician. To me that would require a level of skill, experience and exposure that I do not have and I tend to look at "Martial Artist" much the same way


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 23, 2015)

Blindside said:


> As far as I am concerned if you think you study martial arts you can call yourself a martial artist.  You might suck, but you get the title anyway.
> 
> At what point does someone become a tennis player?  I would say about the time they had a free match with someone else.  Many so called martial arts never get to the point of actually fighting and they get to take the title for themselves so I say we expand it to the newbiest of newbies.



People can call themselves whatever they want, but it does not make it so. I've played tennis, or my version of it, but that does not, to me, make me a tennis player. But then I have been told by more than one person, in reference to such things, that I am too old school. And as far as martial arts goes I have been told by Chinese people I am more Chinese than they are in my thinking on such things...just another way of saying to old fashioned


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## Danny T (Jul 23, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> No, I am not defining it by a movie definition, I am not actually defining it at all, I am asking what does it mean to be a martial artist.


If one trains and is skilled in a martial art then he/she is a martial artist. There are those who are training in a martial art but are not considered skilled as yet. They are training or studying a martial art. An artist is one who is 'skilled' or is very good at what they are doing. For most it doesn't take long to gain some level of skill. At that moment they become an artist.


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## Steve (Jul 23, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I disagree, I played guitar (I was so-so), but I never called myself a musician, nor did I, or do I call someone a musician who is just learning, they are a student of music, but not a musician. I play didgeridoo and I am pretty good at it, still don't think I'm a musician. I am learning the Ukulele and I still do not call myself a musician. To me that would require a level of skill, experience and exposure that I do not have and I tend to look at "Martial Artist" much the same way


okay.  I guess we have different thoughts on the matter.   I would consider you a musician.  Maybe not a very good one, but a musician nonetheless.   But to be clear, this is just my thought, since you asked.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 24, 2015)

We should put martial artist, scholar, scientist, engineer, ... on the same level. The batcher of art (BA) require 4 years of college study with about 120 hours credit total. The master of art (MA) will require 2 more years after that. IMO, if anybody can be called as "artist", it will be just like Mr. or Mrs., it will have no value.

I'll never call myself a martial artist. I just like to train how to land my fist on my opponent's face. No matter which angle that I may look at the following picture, I just don't see much art there.


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## yak sao (Jul 24, 2015)

I've never been a big fan of the term, "martial artist".

I don't know, maybe it just sounds kind of pretentious to me, or worse, we are taking something that was developed for maiming and destroying and trying to hang pretty lace curtains on it.
By using the term "art, we could also, potentially be setting people up for failure. One person's art may be another person's scribbling...we've all heard the adage _ "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" ._
If we take away the absolutes of what is effective and what is not and bring fighting into the land of relativism then you have all kinds of nonsense springing up in the name of "martial arts expression".


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## yak sao (Jul 24, 2015)

But then I'm getting kind of old and crotchety of late.


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The batcher of art (BA) require 4 years of college study with about 120 hours credit total. The master of art (MA) will require 2 more years after that



It doesn't work like that here in the UK or most of Europe.


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## Danny T (Jul 24, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> No matter which angle that I may look at the following picture, I just don't see much art there.



However, you are only looking a small piece of the total

How much art is seen in this masterpiece. 
.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 24, 2015)

Steve said:


> okay.  I guess we have different thoughts on the matter.   I would consider you a musician.  Maybe not a very good one, but a musician nonetheless.   But to be clear, this is just my thought, since you asked.



No worries, its a discussion, not an argument.....

although the "not a very good one" was rather insulting and deserves the proper response so...:You have offended my family, and you have offended the Shaolin Temple... now of course the required posturing, challenges, banter, some Chinese guy with one hand and of course the death match must ensue on some island near Hong Kong


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 24, 2015)

yak sao said:


> But then I'm getting kind of old and crotchety of late.



I've been old and crotchety for years, welcome to the club


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## Steve (Jul 24, 2015)

I think a really good place to start is the definition of the term "art."  It seems to me that a lot of people here have a skewed perspective of what the word really means, and are applying it in only one very specific way.



> MW:
> 1*:*  skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the _art_ of making friends>
> 2_a_ *:*  a branch of learning: _(1)_ *:*  one of the humanities _(2)_ _plural_ *:* liberal arts
> _   b_ _archaic_ *:* learning, scholarship
> ...


Art is more than just the masterpieces that are hanging in a gallery.  Art is any creative endeavor, successful or not.  There is good art and bad art, popular art, serious art.  There are all kinds of art, and it's all art, regardless of the value we place on it.

It is also any area of study, or skills acquired through practice, which is far more relevant to the term martial arts than references to music, dancing, painting or sculpture.

If you look at any of the major sites (I didn't look at them all, but I'm going out on a limb), I think you'll see a pretty consistent definition.  What you won't see are indications that something must meet a certain standard to be considered "art."  I frankly don't understand why we put the term artist on a pedestal.  It's just a descriptor, and means nothing more than that someone does something.  Among painters or musicians or martial artists or blacksmiths or any other "art" there are some who are novices, some who are experts.   And some who truly elevate the art to a new level.


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## Steve (Jul 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> No worries, its a discussion, not an argument.....
> 
> although the "not a very good one" was rather insulting and deserves the proper response so...:You have offended my family, and you have offended the Shaolin Temple... now of course the required posturing, challenges, banter, some Chinese guy with one hand and of course the death match must ensue on some island near Hong Kong


I was only going by your own self description.  If you can play a few chords, you're ahead of me!   I'm really just trying to distinguish between the term "artist" or "musician" and the judgment of skill.  You can be a good musician or a bad one.

I truly wasn't trying to be insulting, and I appreciate that you took my comment as intended.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 24, 2015)

Steve said:


> I think a really good place to start is the definition of the term "art."  It seems to me that a lot of people here have a skewed perspective of what the word really means, and are applying it in only one very specific way.
> 
> Art is more than just the masterpieces that are hanging in a gallery.  Art is any creative endeavor, successful or not.  There is good art and bad art, popular art, serious art.  There are all kinds of art, and it's all art, regardless of the value we place on it.
> 
> ...



To be honest, at one time I was a big proponent of using the word artist as a martial artist label, not being pretentious, but looking at it as what you said "skills acquired through practice". But of late I am not so sure it is worth the hassle and the occasional pretentiousness that comes with the label.

I am actually more interested in what defines a person as a martial "artist" tham what artist or art actuall means. But I do agree that it is likely the best place to start in order to properly discuss this since it is always good to understand the meaning of words before you go off and try and figure out what the applied label is suppose to means.


And while I'm thinking about it, back to the "posturing, challenges, banter, and of course the death match" I'm free in mid-September if you are, and then all that needs to be done is finding some Chinese guy with one hand can fit it into his schedule and of course the proper island of the island of Hong Kong to meet on.... my only requirement is a 5 star hotel


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 24, 2015)

Just for the record you could dedicated your entire life to a didgeridoo and it still wouldn't be music coming out of that thing...sounds like a food processor .....just joking. I actually wish I had one.


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## yak sao (Jul 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> .....all that needs to be done is finding some Chinese guy with one hand can fit it into his schedule and of course the proper island of the island of Hong Kong to meet on.... my only requirement is a 5 star hotel



I would say any good travel agent should be able to help you out.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 24, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> Just for the record you could dedicated your entire life to a didgeridoo and it still wouldn't be music coming out of that thing...sounds like a food processor .....just joking. I actually wish I had one.



oh so your looking for a trip to an island off of Hong Kong too..is that it...DON'T...dis...the didge


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> oh so your looking for a trip to an island off of Hong Kong too..is that it...DON'T...dis...the didge


but i practice the art of fighting without fighting...you see if i get into this little raft and cut the rope like this....oops..wait ... crap i got that wrong


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## pgsmith (Jul 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I kick therefore I'm a martial artist


Or a donkey, they kick pretty well also.  Of course, I've met several people that the two would overlap ... 

  My personal thought is that anyone can call themselves pretty much whatever they want, as long as it's not against the law. If someone that is learning to play an instrument wishes to call themselves a musician, how arrogant and egotistical would I have to be to proclaim that they aren't? Same with an artist. I feel I have no right (not to mention no desire) to tell them they can't call themselves whatever they wish. The same is true of martial arts, in my opinion.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 24, 2015)

I have no desire to tell someone the can or cannot call themselves a martial artist either, I am mostly curious as to what it is supposed to mean in the 21st century, And to be honest the more I type "artist" and think of the label "Martial Artist" I am not really comfortable with it, it is just a label after all, but "Artist" brings in a whole lot of excess baggage.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 24, 2015)

Possibly a better question, is it ok for just anyone to call themselves a Aikidoka, or a Judoka or a Karateteka, or a Wushu/Kung Fu person, or an Eskrimador, or a lutador?

And/or what does it mean to use those labels, can you refer to yourself as one of those if you train once a week, once a month once every 6 months, or if they train exclusively by watching YouTube Videos...would any of those labels still apply


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 24, 2015)

I am starting to believe the question is wrong.

There is no definition of "marital artist" that all will agree on and to be honest that is not what I am after. I have allowed and contributed to post drift in a direction that I did not intend and I believe that is because of the wording of the original question.



> what it takes to truly call yourself a martial artist, to legitimately be a marital artists



First I am getting more and more uncomfortable with the term "Artist" and that is likely my newly acquired bias towards the word. But it is not a definition that I am after it is more philosophical and from that it becomes a more personal description and because of that there will likely be no agreed upon way of describing it.

I asked on another site "What is it to be a marital artist" and that may be a better question, but then maybe it is not.

And since I am not sure of the question maybe it is best just to walk away form the entire thread and leave it at that


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## donald1 (Jul 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have no desire to tell someone the can or cannot call themselves a martial artist either, I am mostly curious as to what it is supposed to mean in the 21st century, And to be honest the more I type "artist" and think of the label "Martial Artist" I am not really comfortable with it, it is just a label after all, but "Artist" brings in a whole lot of excess baggage.



Not sure about other people who use the term "martial artist" I use it from time to time (mostly because it seems to fit the description, im not going to call myself a sports athlete) though personally I prefer to say practitioner of the arts

Although I guess it dosnt matter what you call yourself, as long as you enjoy what your doing (and hopefully your doing it good) thats all that matters



Danny T said:


> However, you are only looking a small piece of the total
> 
> How much art is seen in this masterpiece.
> .View attachment 19397



Depends who you ask, in my opinion art is what someone thinks it is. Someone might look at that picture and call it art, some may say its just a yellow square (not art), or they might say its both


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 24, 2015)

I don't use the term "martial artist" but instead martial practitioner.  I really don't view what I do as art but more as a means of studying martial ways.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 24, 2015)

If someone asked me what makes a martial practitioner?  I would answer someone that trains in a martial system/science or way.  Within the term "martial practitioner" there would be hobbyists and or course serious practitioner's but in the end they all just train!


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## pgsmith (Jul 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am starting to believe the question is wrong.


  I believe so.



Xue Sheng said:


> There is no definition of "marital artist" that all will agree on and to be honest that is not what I am after. I have allowed and contributed to post drift in a direction that I did not intend and I believe that is because of the wording of the original question.


  I agree with this also.



Xue Sheng said:


> First I am getting more and more uncomfortable with the term "Artist" and that is likely my newly acquired bias towards the word. But it is not a definition that I am after it is more philosophical and from that it becomes a more personal description and because of that there will likely be no agreed upon way of describing it.
> 
> I asked on another site "What is it to be a marital artist" and that may be a better question, but then maybe it is not.
> 
> And since I am not sure of the question maybe it is best just to walk away form the entire thread and leave it at that



  It probably would be better to start a new thread, but you should figure out just what it is that you are wishing to discuss. That way you'll stand a better chance of asking the right questions to ignite the desired discussion. All of your questions to this point have been about what people would be willing to try and force *others* to adhere to. Perhaps you would do better asking questions about what definitions others would impose _on themselves_. For instance, I never refer to myself or think of myself as a "martial artist". I always refer to myself, and others, as practitioners because that's what we do.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 24, 2015)

pgsmith said:


> It probably would be better to start a new thread, but you should figure out just what it is that you are wishing to discuss. That way you'll stand a better chance of asking the right questions to ignite the desired discussion. *All of your questions to this point have been about what people would be willing to try and force others to adhere to.* Perhaps you would do better asking questions about what definitions others would impose _on themselves_. For instance, I never refer to myself or think of myself as a "martial artist". I always refer to myself, and others, as practitioners because that's what we do.



That I do completely disagree with by the way, at no point was I forcing anyone to adhere to anything, I was asking questions, possibly uncomfortable questions for some and possibly the wrong questions, but at no point was I asking anyone to comply to anything nor was I trying to force anyone into any belief of my own. I did disagree with some and ask more questions for clarification or to get deeper into the topic. Any feeling of being forced is all from your perception.


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## jks9199 (Jul 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> That I do completely disagree with by the way, at no point was I forcing anyone to adhere to anything, I was asking questions, possibly uncomfortable questions for some and possibly the wrong questions, but at no point was I asking anyone to comply to anything nor was I trying to force anyone into any belief of my own. I did disagree with some and ask more questions for clarification or to get deeper into the topic. Any feeling of being forced is all from your perception.


Seems to me the question was pretty clear at the start.  Filter everything else out, and it boils down to "What does it take to call yourself a martial artist/martial practitioner/whatever term you like?"  You can expand that out to include things like how much time do you have to spend, how dedicated do you have to be, what do you have to have given up, suffered through, etc


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## yak sao (Jul 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> And since I am not sure of the question maybe it is best just to walk away form the entire thread and leave it at that



Oh no you don't.....you ain't going anywhere mister ! 
Now let's get this settled.......
.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 24, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I don't use the term "martial artist" but instead martial practitioner.  I really don't view what I do as art but more as a means of studying martial ways.



I am rapidly coming over to your side on this



Brian R. VanCise said:


> If someone asked me what makes a martial practitioner?  I would answer someone that trains in a martial system/science or way.  Within the term "martial practitioner" there would be hobbyists and or course serious practitioner's but in the end they all just train!



I like this, so Martial Artist (forgive me I had to use it again) is a container like Martial Arts and inside martial arts you have different styles. So in martial artists you have different types of practitioners...I Like it
.


yak sao said:


> Oh no you don't.....you ain't going anywhere mister !
> Now let's get this settled.......
> .



I can't go yet, still working at arranging the whole death match thing with steve on an island near Hong Kong and I think we are only at the challenge and posturing part of the whole posturing, challenges, banter, and death match thingy for his  offending my family and offending the Shaolin Temple.. and I have not even got to the challenge and posturing with hoshin for offending my family and offending the Didgeridoo


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## yak sao (Jul 24, 2015)

[QUOTE="Xue Sheng, post: 1717569, member: 

I can't go yet, still working at arranging the whole death match thing with steve on an island near Hong Kong and I think we are only at the challenge and posturing part of the whole posturing, challenges, banter, and death match thingy for his  offending my family and offending the Shaolin Temple.. and I have not even got to the challenge and posturing with hoshin for offending my family and offending and the Didgeridoo [/QUOTE]

You could always do rock,paper,scissors and call it a day


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## Danny T (Jul 24, 2015)

donald1 said:


> Depends who you ask, in my opinion art is what someone thinks it is.





donald1 said:


> Someone might look at that picture and call it art, some may say its just a yellow square (not art), or they might say its both


Hence my statement of only looking a small piece of the total.
The yellow square is but a small piece of the total picture which is this. This is an art masterpiece by an amazing artist.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am getting more and more uncomfortable with the term "Artist" ...


When you swing your sword, you are trying to cut your opponent's head off. How much art does that involve?

If you help some old lady to cross the street, you then call yourself "saint". That's overrated IMO.

This is why I don't like the term "self-defense". When my fist meets my opponent's face, I'm not defending myself, I'm hurting someone.


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## Balrog (Jul 24, 2015)

The "-ist" suffix in English denotes someone who does something.  So a martial artist is someone who does a martial art.  There's no differentiation between the White Belt beginner and the Grandmaster teaching him - they are both martial artists.


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you swing your sword, you are trying to cut your opponent's head off. How much art does that involve?
> 
> If you help some old lady to cross the street, you then call yourself "saint". That's overrated IMO.
> 
> This is why I don't like the term "self-defense". When my fist meets my opponent's face, I'm not defending myself, I'm hurting someone.




Maybe you aren't trying to kill him, you don't always 'swing' your sword in anger, more than likely it's for practice. Besides swords are rarely used in a fight to cut off the head.
If you help an old lady to cross the road you call yourself well brought up, what's with the saint bit?
'Self defence' is a term you need to use when questioned about the altercation, if you say you deliberately set out to hurt someone you will be charged instead or as well as the perpetrator. You may not like the term but you need to bear it in mind.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 24, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Hence my statement of only looking a small piece of the total.
> The yellow square is but a small piece of the total picture which is this. This is an art masterpiece by an amazing artist.  View attachment 19398


When a pretty girl holds a knife, you may find some "art" in it.






When that knife has blood on, you won't find any art in it.


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## yak sao (Jul 24, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When a pretty girl holds a knife, you may find some "art" in it.



I see your pretty lady and raise you two Michelle Yeoh....









....I know, the second one has absolutely nothing to do with Martial Arts or the topic at hand, but c'mon!


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 24, 2015)

Oh so now you've decided just to taunt me, is that it...going off topic like that with pictures of Michelle Yeoh....I Mean really...I would NEVER do such a thing...

only martial arts realted pictuers please...like this for example






See martial arts related..... anything not martial arts related...like this






You would NEVER see me post

So to recap..this OK






this not






Who am I trying to kid....its Michelle Yeoh... which really means to me no matter the topic.... Michelle Yeoh is on topic


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 25, 2015)

Every great thread always has Michelle in it!


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## Chris Parker (Jul 26, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When a pretty girl holds a knife, you may find some "art" in it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're confusing "art" with "beauty" or "appeal"… "art", in this sense, denotes "skill". So, how much art does it take to take someone's head off with a sword? Quite a bit. Take it from someone who trains swordsmanship.


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## Tgace (Jul 26, 2015)

Take it from someone with an MBA in an "arts" field (I was a "graphic artist" in a previous life) and numerous credit hours of "philosophy of art"...trying to define "art" is something that has gone on unabated since Plato and Aristotle. Nobody here is going to corner the market on an unquestionable definition.

In my personal opinion, "Art" has an element of personal expression in it that separates it from "skill". 

In my additional personal opinion. I think that many people (if not "most") who practice Martial Arts are really just practicing Martial Skills. The real problem is that ego and self-aggrandizement make many people think that being an "Artist" is somehow better than being "just skilled".


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## pgsmith (Jul 26, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> That I do completely disagree with by the way, at no point was I forcing anyone to adhere to anything, I was asking questions, possibly uncomfortable questions for some and possibly the wrong questions, but at no point was I asking anyone to comply to anything nor was I trying to force anyone into any belief of my own. I did disagree with some and ask more questions for clarification or to get deeper into the topic. Any feeling of being forced is all from your perception.


  You cannot *force* me to do anything, this is true. You should actually try reading and understanding what I wrote though rather than simply reacting to your own misperceptions. I never once said that you were trying to force anyone to do anything. I said that your questions were asking others what definitions *they* would put _on other people_. I believe this is why you were not getting the discussion you were hoping to achieve.

  Not an interesting enough topic to be worth the argument though.

  Cheers,


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 26, 2015)

pgsmith said:


> You cannot *force* me to do anything, this is true. You should actually try reading and understanding what I wrote though rather than simply reacting to your own misperceptions. I never once said that you were trying to force anyone to do anything. I said that your questions were asking others what definitions *they* would put _on other people_. I believe this is why you were not getting the discussion you were hoping to achieve.
> 
> Not an interesting enough topic to be worth the argument though.
> 
> Cheers,



Don't want to argue either and I thought I had made that pretty clear throughout this post...but a question...did you write this



pgsmith said:


> I believe so.
> All of your questions to this point have been about what people would be willing to try and force *others* to adhere to.



You may want to try and comprehend what you are writing or at least try and understand that not everyone will interpret what you say exactly the same way you do....and you are right it is not worth arguing over....have a nice day


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## Jenna (Jul 27, 2015)

Does the term artist in any way refer to some kind of creativity? I mean like in other artistic endeavours, some thing, physical or musical or written or acted or whatever is being created yes? Is MA different or do we create some thing with our art also? Or is that not relevant? Jx


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## Hyoho (Jul 27, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not really worried about it, just in a philosophical mood today



I've said it before and I'll say it again that the English term 'martial artist' is a very poor translation. Few nowadays take it to an artistic level. Even fewer follow philosophical values. That is if your practice has any philosophical views in the first place. Laymen totally get the wrong idea of what it is about and almost immediately jump to the conclusion that it contains violence, methods of self defence and attack. This may be true of using the body but has little to do with many weapon arts. I was applying to a consulate with a written visa request. The attorney at the time used the term "martial arts". The request was quickly denied. Had the term Japanese cultural activity been used I am sure it would have received less notice.

In Japan we use terms such as Uchi Deshi ( follower of a family) with seems far more appropriate to what some of us do.

Artistic value lies in the fact that we have reached such a high level of fundamentals that we can now add our own character to it to be appreciated by all.


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## Zero (Jul 27, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I disagree, I played guitar (I was so-so), but I never called myself a musician, nor did I, or do I call someone a musician who is just learning, they are a student of music, but not a musician. I play didgeridoo and I am pretty good at it, still don't think I'm a musician. I am learning the Ukulele and I still do not call myself a musician. To me that would require a level of skill, experience and exposure that I do not have and I tend to look at "Martial Artist" much the same way


Hmmm...but now days there are a reasonable few "Musicians" out there with limited, at best, talent and a far lot more "singers" out there with close to zero talent but they are making an impact, getting on stages and some even (apparently) making good money...are they not "musicians" or "singers" or, even, "artists"?


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 27, 2015)

Zero said:


> Hmmm...but now days there are a reasonable few "Musicians" out there with limited, at best, talent and a far lot more "singers" out there with close to zero talent but they are making an impact, getting on stages and some even (apparently) making good money...are they not "musicians" or "singers" or, even, "artists"?



Good question, and since Brian's post (#38) about "martial practitioner" my views on such things have changed a bit and become a bit more general in nature


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## Zero (Jul 27, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Does the term artist in any way refer to some kind of creativity? I mean like in other artistic endeavours, some thing, physical or musical or written or acted or whatever is being created yes? Is MA different or do we create some thing with our art also? Or is that not relevant? Jx



As a martial artist, we create forms, actions, movements and bring about reactions with our bodies (and our minds which harness and direct our bodies and push us beings of flesh to new limits).

We use our body as the instrument of our creativity.

On the grander scale of things, martial artists have created epic masterpieces of destruction, the ruin of a single opponent's body, the taking of thousands of lives in full scale battle...


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## Zero (Jul 27, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> You're confusing "art" with "beauty" or "appeal"… "art", in this sense, denotes "skill". So, how much art does it take to take someone's head off with a sword? Quite a bit. Take it from someone who trains swordsmanship.


Yeah, but back to things of more relevance, are you as pretty as that blonde or Michelle Yeow?


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## Zero (Jul 27, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Good question, and since Brian's post (#38) about "martial practitioner" my views on such things have changed a bit and become a bit more general in nature


Brian is a source of illumination.


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## seasoned (Jul 27, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Does the term artist in any way refer to some kind of creativity? I mean like in other artistic endeavours, some thing, physical or musical or written or acted or whatever is being created yes? Is MA different or do we create some thing with our art also? Or is that not relevant? Jx


As with art the tools do not make the artist. 
In martial arts our first mission is to understand and practice. Once you have adhered to the principles of your given art, your body adjusts as your mind settles in to take ownership of that that is foreign to our understanding of movement.
As our mind and body become one it sets the stage for the master, with much patience, to appear. Looking for this to happen is not part of becoming the artist, but allowing it, in time, will produce it. An artist is someone that can transcend any limitations that may be placed on them allowing free thinking to flow.
Answer to the above is yes, very relevant.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 28, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Does the term artist in any way refer to some kind of creativity? I mean like in other artistic endeavours, some thing, physical or musical or written or acted or whatever is being created yes? Is MA different or do we create some thing with our art also? Or is that not relevant? Jx


Most of the time art, means good job.


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## Chris Parker (Jul 29, 2015)

Zero said:


> Yeah, but back to things of more relevance, are you as pretty as that blonde or Michelle Yeow?



I'd describe myself more as "rakishly handsome" than "pretty"… but… sure.


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## Zero (Jul 29, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> I'd describe myself more as "rakishly handsome" than "pretty"… but… sure.


Particularly in that Saturday night pink ninja costume of yours but I'll stop now as the Op is owed that much, and this could go on and on (and I really do have a phobia of ninjas - you just never know when you are going to look up and find one hanging from the ceiling...)


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## mograph (Jan 13, 2016)

I think that adding "-ist" to a person's interest as a label suggests that the interest defines the majority of the person's activities or attitudes.
Attitude: following Buddha -> Buddhist. (primary attitude, spirituality or religion)
Activity: making art -> artist (primary activity). 
(The two sometimes blur together.)

By that paradigm, a martial artist would be someone for whom _a major activity_ would be the practice of martial arts. This would definitely be true if it were a person's sole activity outside of work. In other words, this criteria seems to be based on time commitment and primacy of focus. I think that making one's living from that activity would be sufficient, but not necessary for the label to apply. 

For me, just possessing a high level of skill wouldn't fit unless the person also committed a lot of time to the practice. Sure, the person would be good at the art, a skilled practitioner, but I see applying the label as requiring the _time commitment_.

My friend is a physics teacher, but he's a damn good piano player, and has done paying gigs. Is he a musician? Compared to those who teach music or write/play it for a living, he'd say "no," and I'd agree. It's a pastime for him. Would I introduce him as a musician? No, I'd introduce him as a teacher ... if a label were necessary. 

I make art on occasion, and also study it at university. Am I an artist? I wouldn't say so, because it's not a primary activity for me, and my skill is up for debate. But ... I make motion graphics for a living so, technically, I'm a motion graphics artist. But I prefer to say "I create motion graphics for corporate clients." 

Wrinkle: to me, saying "he's a good musician" is different from saying "he's a musician." To me, the former seems to compliment his musical talents, while the latter suggests that music is a primary activity for him, or that he's a pro. 
"He's a good martial artist?"
"He's a martial artist?"

So it's complicated.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 13, 2016)

Don't get hung up on strict definitions. The term 'martial artist' is simply a commonly accepted label. I am a karateka, a student of karate. Most Americans don't know that term, so martial artist will suffice.

As to the 'art' in martial arts, of course it is an art. For those who follow the 'do', the art is in creation and refinement of oneself.


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## ShawnP (Feb 26, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have been thinking about this and I keep hearing the speech in my head from Han (Kan Shih) from "Enter the Dragon"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Xue Sheng,
My thoughts: the phrase "Martial Artist" means different things to everyone, to me it means nothing. i am a "Student" of the Martial Arts therefor i am just that. if you think of it in extremes from a child just learning to walk to a Great Grand Master Ubber creator of a system of fighting we all MUST learn to continue to grow as a human surviving on this planet, otherwise what if any is the point of living? i say we are ALL "Students of the Martial Arts".


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## GiYu - Todd (Feb 26, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Possibly a better question, is it ok for just anyone to call themselves a Aikidoka, or a Judoka or a Karateteka, or a Wushu/Kung Fu person, or an Eskrimador, or a lutador?
> 
> And/or what does it mean to use those labels, can you refer to yourself as one of those if you train once a week, once a month once every 6 months, or if they train exclusively by watching YouTube Videos...would any of those labels still apply


If you study an art form, you can call yourself ____-oka/-ist/-etc.  There's no actual requirement for how good you have to be, or how frequently you train in order to use the title.  However, if you were to use the title around someone who has dedicated themselves to pursuing that art, and they call you on it (ie - want to see how good you are) you'll look foolish if you can't back up your claim with at least a bit of skill or knowledge.

I take photos at our dojo for use on our website and facebook pages, mostly with my cell phone.  If someone were to ask who the photographer was for a given picture, I'd say it was me... since that's technically accurate.  However, I don't have sufficient photography skills to call myself a "photographer" to others.  If I chose to brag to a professional or experienced amatuer photographer that I too am a "photographer", they would likely mock my limited skills.  However, if I told them I'm just starting out and trying to learn, they'd hopefully respect my humility and give advice... or at least not laugh.


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