# What is the Marketing Budget of different Martial Arts Schools?



## Sharon Bennett (Feb 4, 2020)

I'm a social media marketer and videographer/photographer, and I just recently opened a business in my city. (I had a business in another state that was getting off the ground, but I had to move for personal reasons).

I am thinking about selecting martial arts schools as my target market, since I am very passionate about martial arts and I know it's really changed my life in a positive way. I'd love to help advertise schools because I feel like martial arts can be life changing.

My only concern is that I know a lot of martial arts schools struggle. I know that it's not uncommon for martial arts school/dojo owners to not make a living off of it. Those that do, often don't make much...

So I am wondering, what is the marketing budget and the revenue of an average martial arts school? Also what is the marketing budget and revenue of a martial arts school that is doing really well?

Any help with this would be appreciated.


----------



## Gweilo (Feb 4, 2020)

Was that a bit of tumbleweed just blew across my screen?


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2020)

We're a martial arts club, we don't have a 'marketing' budget, in fact we don't have a budget for anything


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 4, 2020)

Marketing is a huge reason why a ton of schools struggle, which is good news for you.

Part of the reason marketing is a problem is because a lot of instructors don't care or understand the importance of marketing, which is bad for you.

Just reach out to a bunch of schools near you, tell them what you're offering and see if they're interested/you can build a client base. If you can, great! If you can't, nothing lost, and you can focus on other markets.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 4, 2020)

We have a very elaborate marketing budget utilizing television, radio, print, and internet advertising. Our marketing staff covers one floor of our 100 story skyscraper. Our Dojang, on the penthouse, has advertising and signage around the perimeter that can be seen for miles. We use only A-listers for our commercials and spokes persons. We have our own sweat shop creating shirts and caps. We blitz advertising every month worldwide. Our budget is over a ba-gillion dollars each annually.


----------



## Sharon Bennett (Feb 4, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> We have a very elaborate marketing budget utilizing television, radio, print, and internet advertising. Our marketing staff covers one floor of our 100 story skyscraper. Our Dojang, on the penthouse, has advertising and signage around the perimeter that can be seen for miles. We use only A-listers for our commercials and spokes persons. We have our own sweat shop creating shirts and caps. We blitz advertising every month worldwide. Our budget is over a ba-gillion dollars each annually.



haha yeah, this is part of my concern. I think many martial arts schools may not have a marketing budget. Though I’m working with a business coach that thinks it’s a doable target market.... so I thought I’d get some info.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2020)

Sharon Bennett said:


> haha yeah, this is part of my concern. I think many martial arts schools may not have a marketing budget. Though I’m working with a business coach that thinks it’s a doable target market.... so I thought I’d get some info.




Most don't have a marketing budget because they aren't actually businesses, they make enough money for running costs and are happy with that.
The ones that are businesses tend to belong to organisations that will do the marketing as a whole. I did a quick Google, there's quick a few martial arts marketing companies, not to mention plenty of self help marketing type blogs/articles/videos etc.


----------



## Gweilo (Feb 4, 2020)

Sharon Bennett said:


> haha yeah, this is part of my concern. I think many martial arts schools may not have a marketing budget. Though I’m working with a business coach that thinks it’s a doable target market.... so I thought I’d get some info.



Sharron you will have to excuse the sinarcism, but the main reason ma schools do not use marketing companies is they cannot afford to, most do not have a name like Gracie for example selling a marketers dream of a franchise opportunity, so funds are limited, here in the uk, there is rent, business rates, insurance, public liability insurance, the outlay for stock for students to purchase with very little mark up, then the local authority wants to charge £350 + tax for a flood risk assesment when the gym is miles from water and on the 3rd floor, changing all the lighting to LED to bring the utility prices down, most have very little, if any budget left, let alone £250 a month on a 12 month contract for marketing, so for many, its a case of the only comodity they have left which is time, facebook, twitter, youtube, a website (which is confusing as a domain name is £2 for 2 years then jumps to £50 for one year), joining all the free ads, yellow pages etc, and when we have a boom, we spend what we can afford on advertising, in a media that has dwindling readership, or pay per click on the net, so unless you are offering a miracle for a $1, I would concertrate on Mcdojo's. Most here do it for the love of an art or the benefits others get from training, there are some of us that teach for free, to those who cannot afford or are less fortunate than others. Of course advertising works, but so does stocks and shares, if you can afford it.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Feb 4, 2020)

Here's my semi-professional opinion on target mkt'g: 
   1.  Those who want martial arts and are looking for it. 
   2.  Those who aren't looking for it, but need to be.

Rather than me detailing the difference in approaches, I'll leave it open to my fellow contributors.  Sort of a sub-thread.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> Sharron you will have to excuse the sinarcism, but the main reason ma schools do not use marketing companies is they cannot afford to, most do not have a name like Gracie for example selling a marketers dream of a franchise opportunity, so funds are limited, here in the uk, there is rent, business rates, insurance, public liability insurance, the outlay for stock for students to purchase with very little mark up, then the local authority wants to charge £350 + tax for a flood risk assesment when the gym is miles from water and on the 3rd floor, changing all the lighting to LED to bring the utility prices down, most have very little, if any budget left, let alone £250 a month on a 12 month contract for marketing, so for many, its a case of the only comodity they have left which is time, facebook, twitter, youtube, a website (which is confusing as a domain name is £2 for 2 years then jumps to £50 for one year), joining all the free ads, yellow pages etc, and when we have a boom, we spend what we can afford on advertising, in a media that has dwindling readership, or pay per click on the net, so unless you are offering a miracle for a $1, I would concertrate on Mcdojo's. Most here do it for the love of an art or the benefits others get from training, there are some of us that teach for free, to those who cannot afford or are less fortunate than others. Of course advertising works, but so does stocks and shares, if you can afford it.




Absolutely what he said, I'm lucky, don't pay rent or any utilities etc just the insurance. We don't need advertising either.

In the UK the idea of martial arts as big business simply isn't realistic for many reasons not least that we don't really see sports as such other than the big football teams. To be honest our McDojos are even run on a shoestring.

As Gweilo says, go for the Mcdojos, they are run for money mostly not love which again as he's said, we don't.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 4, 2020)

Sharon Bennett said:


> haha yeah, this is part of my concern. I think many martial arts schools may not have a marketing budget. Though I’m working with a business coach that thinks it’s a doable target market.... so I thought I’d get some info.


In seriousness, I have owned the real property for two schools since the early 90's. I am still very active in the background for both locations. The only time we 'pay' for advertising is through trading services (dues/tuition)for media services and website update/support. 
There just are not many venture people out there starting up dojo/dojangs that need help with advertising. In our part of the world (southeast U.S.) there are many alternatives. Possibly if you can present a very specialized campaign; say for a specific time or time of year.


----------



## WaterGal (Feb 5, 2020)

On your other thread, I wrote up a rough description of the typical revenue and marketing efforts of typical small martial arts schools and clubs, based on my own experience (manage/co-owned a martial arts school for 7 years, taught & traded web design for lessons before that). 

Someone else on here mentioned that a lot of schools are part of an association, affiliation, coaching program, CRM software-as-a-service, etc that includes "marketing help" as part of the service. That's true. But my experience has been that the help they offer is often.... somewhat limited. The kind of help we've gotten from these groups is stuff like basic flyer templates, an e-mail template to send out to your lukewarm prospects, and some seasonal martial-arts-themed graphics for your social media account. Helpful for what it is, but not, you know, anything super flashy.

However, there are a number of companies that specifically target small martial arts schools with certain specific marketing services.

For example, there are a few that offer pre-designed but customized flyers, rack cards, etc. They pre-design them with stock photos of people doing martial arts and a little copy about how martial arts is really great for blah blah blah, and they just customize them with your school logo and contact info and print them up for you.

On the same vein, there are a number of web design services that target this market. Like the flyer guys, they basically have some templates that they customize for you. The sites are designed to get attention and capture leads that get pushed into your CRM. 

So these are areas where there is established competition for you already, that is very targeted to this market, and actively promote themselves on social media.

What services are you interested in providing? 

Done-for-you social media ad campaigns would be an area that might be worth exploring. I'm familiar with a guy who does this already, but I don't think the competition there is quite as established.

I think the key would be to make sure that your offer is priced low enough that a smale-scale business can afford it. For what it's worth, I currently spend about $100-150/month on Facebook ads. I manage it myself, but I'd definitely be willing to pay someone another say, $50-100/month to manage it for me, if it got us even 1 extra new member each month. If you were hired by schools that were in different areas, you could run pretty much exactly the same ad campaigns in each area and nobody would know the difference lol.


----------



## Sharon Bennett (Feb 13, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> In seriousness, I have owned the real property for two schools since the early 90's. I am still very active in the background for both locations. The only time we 'pay' for advertising is through trading services (dues/tuition)for media services and website update/support.
> There just are not many venture people out there starting up dojo/dojangs that need help with advertising. In our part of the world (southeast U.S.) there are many alternatives. Possibly if you can present a very specialized campaign; say for a specific time or time of year.



When you say media services, what do you mean? Photography and videography? That's also part of what I offer.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 13, 2020)

Sharon Bennett said:


> When you say media services, what do you mean? Photography and videography? That's also part of what I offer.


Occasionally. There is usually a "photo bug" working out that gladly takes pictures/video just for the hobby of it.


----------



## Sharon Bennett (Feb 13, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Occasionally. There is usually a "photo bug" working out that gladly takes pictures/video just for the hobby of it.



There is a big difference between a hobbyist taking photos and videos, and a professional.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 13, 2020)

Sharon Bennett said:


> There is a big difference between a hobbyist taking photos and videos, and a professional.


I agree, and did not mean to offend. As long as it is still shots I have never had a problem. We have hired services for tournaments and such in the past.


----------



## Sharon Bennett (Feb 13, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I agree, and did not mean to offend. As long as it is still shots I have never had a problem. We have hired services for tournaments and such in the past.



You did not offend in the slightest. I just wanted to point out that professionals and hobbyists are quite different. But I'm glad you already know that.


----------



## bushido (Jan 23, 2022)

Average national marketing spend for the MA niche is 11% of income...  If you are building out your brand, you will require an initial set-up of approx. $2,400 if you go through an agency, with a monthly spend of your 11% plus 6% dedicated to branding.  
If you are doing all the work, initial investment in software will be much higher.


----------



## dvcochran (Jan 24, 2022)

bushido said:


> Average national marketing spend for the MA niche is 11% of income...  If you are building out your brand, you will require an initial set-up of approx. $2,400 if you go through an agency, with a monthly spend of your 11% plus 6% dedicated to branding.
> If you are doing all the work, initial investment in software will be much higher.


You will have to define 'MA niche' and 'of income' and itemize the $2,400 for me to understand these numbers. 
Is the 6% for branding on top of the 11%?

Where can I find the stats to back up your average national marketing claim?


----------



## bushido (Jan 24, 2022)

-MA = martial arts 
-Of income is Gross income
- 6% is on top of the 11.  Branding and brand awareness is a different beast than marketing.
-The $2,400 initial set up can vary greatly from agency to agency... I have not seen any agency last year set up a client for under $2,000 and it can range as high as 10,000, dependent upon ad spend and agency in-house resources (some agencies will outsource some services such as cold call out reach, etc).  This covers setup of your client dashboard, which includes SEO analytics so you can monitor progress, Integration platform, setting up your e-mail validation and e-mail & URL warming software, setting up social media accounts and content calendar for auto posting, e-mail accounts for specific promotions, customer relations management account, Initial consultation to determine your specific niche target and your marketing expectations as well as developing a 1 yr road map which lays out & matches our responsibilities to your expectations,  Sometimes the two cannot be made to meet, in which case we deny the project and you would be looking for a different agency.  Etc.
-Sources: Just like real estate agents buy mlm listing resouces, car sales buy blue bcoks for car values etc, etc, marketing agencies buy data sets.
- If you are doing all this yourself,  you will have to buy the software to do all of the above


----------



## WaterGal (Jan 31, 2022)

bushido said:


> -MA = martial arts
> -Of income is Gross income
> - 6% is on top of the 11.  Branding and brand awareness is a different beast than marketing.
> -The $2,400 initial set up can vary greatly from agency to agency... I have not seen any agency last year set up a client for under $2,000 and it can range as high as 10,000, dependent upon ad spend and agency in-house resources (some agencies will outsource some services such as cold call out reach, etc).  This covers setup of your client dashboard, which includes SEO analytics so you can monitor progress, Integration platform, setting up your e-mail validation and e-mail & URL warming software, setting up social media accounts and content calendar for auto posting, e-mail accounts for specific promotions, customer relations management account, Initial consultation to determine your specific niche target and your marketing expectations as well as developing a 1 yr road map which lays out & matches our responsibilities to your expectations,  Sometimes the two cannot be made to meet, in which case we deny the project and you would be looking for a different agency.  Etc.
> ...


Where are you getting these figures?

Martial arts CRM software systems (Spark, Mindbody, Kicksite, Zenplanner, etc) are generally cloud-based SAAS systems in the $100-250/month range, with no setup cost. I think the more popular lead generation website providers in this industry (Market Muscles, 93 Display, etc) are priced similarly. So you're looking at $0 upfront and $200-500/month ongoing. Then you have social media ad spends, which could be anywhere from $50-500/month depending on a lot of factors, plus potentially some extra if you're hiring someone to manage them for you, but again, that's a monthly cost.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 31, 2022)

bushido said:


> Average national marketing spend for the MA niche is 11% of income...  If you are building out your brand, you will require an initial set-up of approx. $2,400 if you go through an agency, with a monthly spend of your 11% plus 6% dedicated to branding.
> If you are doing all the work, initial investment in software will be much higher.


Create a website. Use the school Facebook page to push people to your website.  Show what you do with the same energy that people have when they post about what food they are eating.  
 You should be able to do all of that for less than $2000


----------



## bushido (Feb 1, 2022)

Water Gal:  


WaterGal said:


> Where are you getting these figures?
> 
> Martial arts CRM software systems (Spark, Mindbody, Kicksite, Zenplanner, etc) are generally cloud-based SAAS systems in the $100-250/month range, with no setup cost. I think the more popular lead generation website providers in this industry (Market Muscles, 93 Display, etc) are priced similarly. So you're looking at $0 upfront and $200-500/month ongoing. Then you have social media ad spends, which could be anywhere from $50-500/month depending on a lot of factors, plus potentially some extra if you're hiring someone to manage them for you, but again, that's a monthly cost.


I don't know of any company that is going to generate a couple of thousand niche specific leads a month for you for $200... if you can, hell, do it.  And 60 mixed ( 1,200 - 2,500 ) original niche specific articles each and every month is going to cost you waaay more time (read money) than what we charge.  A good ad copy writer alone is how much?  And, do you have the ability to do targeted cold-call out reach?  How much does it cost to develop a 10,000 list.. a clean list, not a scraped facebook garbage list?  And after you have that list, can you keep them out of the spam folder?  I can... And you have nothing in your saas platforms that is going to help you build out IP & complimentary products to expand your business.  And, seeing as you are on the subject, do you have any idea what the price of Geo Marketing is?  Your little $200 platform has nothing that will help you with this.
I know what we do for our clients... I  am well worth the money.  But, I also recognize that the vast majority of business owners just want to be a ma & pa shop.  Nothing wrong with that.  Mundane is good for the majority.  Then you just need a few fliers, put on a demo every now and then, post to your facebook when ever you think about it... you know, all the things that the 200k saas platform subscribers are doing


----------



## bushido (Feb 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Create a website. Use the school Facebook page to push people to your website.  Show what you do with the same energy that people have when they post about what food they are eating.
> You should be able to do all of that for less than $2000


For sure... But that is not what we do.  We build brands and drive traffic.  If you are not willing to grow, we will flood you with traffic and clients, and they will just go to waste because you do not have the infrastructure to deal with it.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 2, 2022)

bushido said:


> Water Gal:
> 
> I don't know of any company that is going to generate a couple of thousand niche specific leads a month for you for $200... if you can, hell, do it.  And 60 mixed ( 1,200 - 2,500 ) original niche specific articles each and every month is going to cost you waaay more time (read money) than what we charge.  A good ad copy writer alone is how much?  And, do you have the ability to do targeted cold-call out reach?  How much does it cost to develop a 10,000 list.. a clean list, not a scraped facebook garbage list?  And after you have that list, can you keep them out of the spam folder?  I can... And you have nothing in your saas platforms that is going to help you build out IP & complimentary products to expand your business.  And, seeing as you are on the subject, do you have any idea what the price of Geo Marketing is?  Your little $200 platform has nothing that will help you with th
> I know what we do for our clients... I  am well worth the money.  But, I also recognize that the vast majority of business owners just want to be a ma & pa shop.  Nothing wrong with that.  Mundane is good for the majority.  Then you just need a few fliers, put on a demo every now and then, post to your facebook when ever you think about it... you know, all the things that the 200k saas platform subscribers are doing


That is great and all, but you are fishing in the wrong pond, and apparently do not realize it. 
Most schools are independently owned, usually consisting of one location. Occasionally there will be two or three. There are systems/businesses out there that try consolidation but it is small in scope. 
This is not at all what you are describing which is akin to a corporation structure with multiple sources of revenue, selling a product.
Furthermore, why would I want to oversell my space, teaching/training limits (no. of instructors), reputation, or business? Especially in a service industry, that is a quick recipe for failure and bankruptcy. 

It is great that you know your business and can crow about what you do. But you do not know what/who you are talking to. @WaterGal has a very successful, robust MA's business. 

I do not know if you are here trolling to drum up business or genuinely here for martial arts discussion. So far it has been the former. If this is the case your time can be better spent elsewhere.

"We build brands and drive traffic." C'mon man. I am a marketing noob and know how to get this done to maximize my needs.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 2, 2022)

bushido said:


> And, do you have the ability to do targeted cold-call out reach?


Cold calling - for martial arts students? I’ve been training martial arts for 40 years and I’ve never gotten or heard of someone getting a cold call promoting a martial arts school. If I did get one, it wouldn’t particularly motivate me to visit that school.

Offhand, given the percentage of people who express interest in martial arts that actually show up for training and stick around, I’m skeptical that cold calling would produce enough students to make it financially worthwhile. But maybe I’m wrong. I remember reading about a chain of karate schools (in Australia, I think) that operates on a sort of MLM/door-to-door sales model and is apparently making money. (If not producing competent martial artists.)


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 2, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Cold calling - for martial arts students? I’ve been training martial arts for 40 years and I’ve never gotten or heard of someone getting a cold call promoting a martial arts school. If I did get one, it wouldn’t particularly motivate me to visit that school.


A cold-call about ANYTHING is pretty much a sure fire way to ensure I never have anything to do with that company.


----------



## WaterGal (Feb 2, 2022)

bushido said:


> Water Gal:
> 
> I don't know of any company that is going to generate a couple of thousand niche specific leads a month for you for $200... if you can, hell, do it.  And 60 mixed ( 1,200 - 2,500 ) original niche specific articles each and every month is going to cost you waaay more time (read money) than what we charge.  A good ad copy writer alone is how much?  And, do you have the ability to do targeted cold-call out reach?  How much does it cost to develop a 10,000 list.. a clean list, not a scraped facebook garbage list?  And after you have that list, can you keep them out of the spam folder?  I can... And you have nothing in your saas platforms that is going to help you build out IP & complimentary products to expand your business.  And, seeing as you are on the subject, do you have any idea what the price of Geo Marketing is?  Your little $200 platform has nothing that will help you with this.
> I know what we do for our clients... I  am well worth the money.  But, I also recognize that the vast majority of business owners just want to be a ma & pa shop.  Nothing wrong with that.  Mundane is good for the majority.  Then you just need a few fliers, put on a demo every now and then, post to your facebook when ever you think about it... you know, all the things that the 200k saas platform subscribers are doing


There are very, very, very few martial arts schools who are going to be able to handle _a couple of thousand_ prospective trial students _every month_. Having a total client base that's even anywhere close to a thousand active students is vanishingly rare in this industry.

The type of marketing service that you're describing might be suitable for, say, a B2B company that's providing services to gyms nationwide. But for your typical local martial arts school serving a small city or suburban community with 10-100k total residents, it's really an absurd level of overkill.


----------



## WaterGal (Feb 2, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> It is great that you know your business and can crow about what you do. But you do not know what/who you are talking to. @WaterGal has a very successful, robust MA's business.



Aww, thanks . We're doing pretty well for a small-town mom & pop school, but there are definitely much bigger fish out there!


----------



## bushido (Feb 2, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> That is great and all, but you are fishing in the wrong pond, and apparently do not realize it.
> Most schools are independently owned, usually consisting of one location. Occasionally there will be two or three. There are systems/businesses out there that try consolidation but it is small in scope.
> This is not at all what you are describing which is akin to a corporation structure with multiple sources of revenue, selling a product.
> Furthermore, why would I want to oversell my space, teaching/training limits (no. of instructors), reputation, or business? Especially in a service industry, that is a quick recipe for failure and bankruptcy.
> ...


True enough, and I realize most are just single location owners... but we do build out other products that you can mass sell, such as books, courses, clothing (we do not design the clothing of course, but we do design the artwork to align with your branding.

And, sorry, for what it is worth, I am not here to drum up business... I answered a question, I did not start the topic.  And I did not continue to post on this thread.  I replied to these comments because of the way the comments are worded.  

Sorry, I'll refrain from answering any thing that is not directly related to my MA experience.


----------



## bushido (Feb 2, 2022)

WaterGal said:


> There are very, very, very few martial arts schools who are going to be able to handle _a couple of thousand_ prospective trial students _every month_. Having a total client base that's even anywhere close to a thousand active students is vanishingly rare in this industry.
> 
> The type of marketing service that you're describing might be suitable for, say, a B2B company that's providing services to gyms nationwide. But for your typical local martial arts school serving a small city or suburban community with 10-100k total residents, it's really an absurd level of overkill.


Sorry, let me clarify... we build out a brand, so you do have complimentary products to increase your income.   That is your cold call focus.  
We use Geo marketing to target your local and increase student enrollment.
Two different means to two different ends


----------



## bushido (Feb 2, 2022)

"I do not know if you are here trolling to drum up business or genuinely here for martial arts discussion. So far it has been the former. If this is the case your time can be better spent elsewhere."

Really Sir?  I have what, 45 posts, and this was the first time I ANSWERED a marketing related post, and that is your take from it?


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 2, 2022)

bushido said:


> True enough, and I realize most are just single location owners... but we do build out other products that you can mass sell, such as books, courses, clothing (we do not design the clothing of course, but we do design the artwork to align with your branding.
> 
> And, sorry, for what it is worth, I am not here to drum up business... I answered a question, I did not start the topic.  And I did not continue to post on this thread.  I replied to these comments because of the way the comments are worded.
> 
> Sorry, I'll refrain from answering any thing that is not directly related to my MA experience.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 3, 2022)

bushido said:


> "I do not know if you are here trolling to drum up business or genuinely here for martial arts discussion. So far it has been the former. If this is the case your time can be better spent elsewhere."
> 
> Really Sir?  I have what, 45 posts, and this was the first time I ANSWERED a marketing related post, and that is your take from it?


For what it's worth, it did not read to me like you are here to drum up business. I don't think you've even mentioned what your business name is, and like you said you responded to someone else's question, and then follow up questions.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 3, 2022)

bushido said:


> True enough, and I realize most are just single location owners... but we do build out other products that you can mass sell, such as books, courses, clothing (we do not design the clothing of course, but we do design the artwork to align with your branding.
> 
> And, sorry, for what it is worth, I am not here to drum up business... I answered a question, I did not start the topic. And I did not continue to post on this thread. I replied to these comments because of the way the comments are worded.
> 
> Sorry, I'll refrain from answering any thing that is not directly related to my MA experience.





bushido said:


> Really Sir? I have what, 45 posts, and this was the first time I ANSWERED a marketing related post, and that is your take from it?


In a matter of 10 minutes, you went from the first quote to the second. 

So, which one displays your actual opinion? They are going pretty hard in opposite directions. 

There are people here with over 20k posts on here and you are lamenting about your 45? Again, c'mon man. 

I had originally replied 'no worries and glad you are here'. Then I read the second post. And I retracted my comments. 

No one is asking you to refrain from anything. But you should understand you will be challenged when it has merit. Believe me, I have been bashed on here more times than I can remember. And it will happen again.


----------



## bushido (Feb 3, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> There are people here with over 20k posts on here and you are lamenting about your 45? Again, c'mon man.


What I was trying to say, was that I have 45 other posts, and not one of them had anything to do with pushing a marketing agenda... I was trying to give somebody an idea of cost to hire a professional marketing agency, and what we provide for that kind of service.  Now they have a good idea of what a marketing & branding plan should include.
And I don't give a flyin rats a$$ if you criticize me or not, but don't get pissy with me either if I back up what I say.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 4, 2022)

bushido said:


> What I was trying to say, was that I have 45 other posts, and not one of them had anything to do with pushing a marketing agenda... I was trying to give somebody an idea of cost to hire a professional marketing agency, and what we provide for that kind of service.  Now they have a good idea of what a marketing & branding plan should include.
> And I don't give a flyin rats a$$ if you criticize me or not, but don't get pissy with me either if I back up what I say.


Pissy, that's funny. If that was 'pissy', you will always be in trouble here. Not used to being challenged about your work are you? 
What you did was give Your idea of cost to hire a professional agency, More accurately, what you have been trained to try and assert on prospects as the only truth. Which, of course, is a bare faced lie.

And where did you back it up? You just spewed your sales pitch with no substance or data. 

Several people have already responded in regard to the extreme numbers and results you claimed. Since your bluff was called, I see no need in doing it again. 
Like I previously said, if you/your agency can pull off the crap you claimed (in other business dynamics) good on ya. 

But I strongly encourage you to do your due diligence before peddling your services here or anywhere else for that matter.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2022)

bushido said:


> Water Gal:
> 
> I don't know of any company that is going to generate a couple of thousand niche specific leads a month for you for $200... if you can, hell, do it.  And 60 mixed ( 1,200 - 2,500 ) original niche specific articles each and every month is going to cost you waaay more time (read money) than what we charge.  A good ad copy writer alone is how much?  And, do you have the ability to do targeted cold-call out reach?  How much does it cost to develop a 10,000 list.. a clean list, not a scraped facebook garbage list?  And after you have that list, can you keep them out of the spam folder?  I can... And you have nothing in your saas platforms that is going to help you build out IP & complimentary products to expand your business.  And, seeing as you are on the subject, do you have any idea what the price of Geo Marketing is?  Your little $200 platform has nothing that will help you with this.
> I know what we do for our clients... I  am well worth the money.  But, I also recognize that the vast majority of business owners just want to be a ma & pa shop.  Nothing wrong with that.  Mundane is good for the majority.  Then you just need a few fliers, put on a demo every now and then, post to your facebook when ever you think about it... you know, all the things that the 200k saas platform subscribers are doing


I don't know anyone in the MA world who would have the time to deal with a couple thousand leads a month. I'm sure there are some (those with staff and multiple schools, probably), but I haven't seen them.

Most MA schools are probably looking for a couple dozen real, interested people a month.

Or maybe when you say leads, you're talking about the starting point for calls and such, to try to find those interested parties. That would be a very diffferent approach, and would need more staff and/or money than makes sense for most schools.

What you do may be highly valuable to your MA clients. If so, they already have much bigger operations than any I've been around.


----------



## bushido (Feb 4, 2022)

That's cool DV , I'm not here to argue with you, and I'm not here to sell to you.  I answered the OP in a way that I thought would be helpful.  Sorry you did not find it so.


----------



## bushido (Feb 4, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I don't know anyone in the MA world who would have the time to deal with a couple thousand leads a month. I'm sure there are some (those with staff and multiple schools, probably), but I haven't seen them.
> 
> Most MA schools are probably looking for a couple dozen real, interested people a month.
> 
> ...


I will just say, again, that if your idea of growing your business is just filling your student roster, you're just looking for a handful of students, just do some flyers, etc... 
But that is a very limited view of your profit potential...  Why would you not want to monetize your website?   Even if it is only through affiliate links or ppc banners?  Why not have a cool looking brand and sell workout clothing?  Supplements with your logo on them?  Video courses?  And on & on & on... All you need is the structure, something to sell, the traffic and the leads.
That is all stuff I think every business owner should be doing in one way or another.
You do what you think is right for you and yours.  Some just want a small gym, some want to grow beyond that.  That's why you look at marketing.
My idea of growing a business is just different than your idea of growing a business.
But this is the digital age... confining your potential to a brick and mortar is going to a limiting factor on how much you can earn in your chosen field.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2022)

bushido said:


> I will just say, again, that if your idea of growing your business is just filling your student roster, you're just looking for a handful of students, just do some flyers, etc...
> But that is a very limited view of your profit potential...  Why would you not want to monetize your website?   Even if it is only through affiliate links or ppc banners?  Why not have a cool looking brand and sell workout clothing?  Supplements with your logo on them?  Video courses?  And on & on & on... All you need is the structure, something to sell, the traffic and the leads.
> That is all stuff I think every business owner should be doing in one way or another.
> You do what you think is right for you and yours.  Some just want a small gym, some want to grow beyond that.  That's why you look at marketing.
> ...


I think you're looking at something that is far bigger than most MA instructors/school owners have in mind. They sell to their students - you're talking about trying to market to the general public. That's not a MA business - it's a clothing business, a supplement business, etc. Not a bad business, but not in the same niche, at all. And not what most folks are in this to do.

It's like asking an ice cream place why they don't have a whole clothing brand. They may have some t-shirts for regulars and/or tourists, but having a whole clothing line is just an entirely different business.

EDIT: I'll also add that trying to start a clothing brand based on a MA school sounds like a low-percentage play, unless the school is really well known, because of some celebrity (MMA fighter, etc.).


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 4, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think you're looking at something that is far bigger than most MA instructors/school owners have in mind. They sell to their students - you're talking about trying to market to the general public. That's not a MA business - it's a clothing business, a supplement business, etc. Not a bad business, but not in the same niche, at all. And not what most folks are in this to do.
> 
> It's like asking an ice cream place why they don't have a whole clothing brand. They may have some t-shirts for regulars and/or tourists, but having a whole clothing line is just an entirely different business.
> 
> EDIT: I'll also add that trying to start a clothing brand based on a MA school sounds like a low-percentage play, unless the school is really well known, because of some celebrity (MMA fighter, etc.).


I have tried to explain to @bushido that the optics are all wrong, but he/she does not seem to want to understand this. Or doesn’t know how. 

Just for fun though (because I liked you example so much) I will try to do one better and say a diamond cutter should also actively test dynamite; at the same location. 
Makes about as much sense.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> I have tried to explain to @bushido that the optics are all wrong, but he/she does not seem to want to understand this. Or doesn’t know how.
> 
> Just for fun though (because I liked you example so much) I will try to do one better and say a diamond cutter should also actively test dynamite; at the same location.
> Makes about as much sense.


The more I think about it, the more it feels like their numbers would apply to a gym run by a recognizable name, like an MMA fighter. In that kind of situation, both the numbers and the branded add-ons to the business seem appropriate.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 5, 2022)

bushido said:


> I will just say, again, that if your idea of growing your business is just filling your student roster, you're just looking for a handful of students, just do some flyers, etc...
> But that is a very limited view of your profit potential...  Why would you not want to monetize your website?   Even if it is only through affiliate links or ppc banners?  Why not have a cool looking brand and sell workout clothing?


Because, believe it or not, money is not the sole (or even primary) motivator for plenty of people.
Over the years, I have made EXACTLY the amount I want from teaching. Zero. Zip. Nada. Zilch.


----------



## dvcochran (Feb 5, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> The more I think about it, the more it feels like their numbers would apply to a gym run by a recognizable name, like an MMA fighter. In that kind of situation, both the numbers and the branded add-ons to the business seem appropriate.


We have always had products for resale but it is more as a convenience than major profit line item. I get enough of a discount that I can sell most stuff cheaper than you can buy it online and have it delivered.
We have always had a logo and 'brand recognition' I suppose, but pushing product is just not what I want to focus on. Kind of feels in violation.
There is a sweet spot for the number of students that balances with the size of our schools (workout areas) so as long as we stay there without any additional investment, I do not see purpose.
A major difference (at least for us) is that the buildings are not open all day, 7 days/week as a MA's school, like most gyms are. So, the dynamics are just not apples to apples, and I am good with that.

There are exceptions of course but when a person's name is used as branding there is usually an expiration date on the efficacy.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2022)

bushido said:


> Water Gal:
> 
> I don't know of any company that is going to generate a couple of thousand niche specific leads a month for you for $200... if you can, hell, do it.  And 60 mixed ( 1,200 - 2,500 ) original niche specific articles each and every month is going to cost you waaay more time (read money) than what we charge.  A good ad copy writer alone is how much?  And, do you have the ability to do targeted cold-call out reach?  How much does it cost to develop a 10,000 list.. a clean list, not a scraped facebook garbage list?  And after you have that list, can you keep them out of the spam folder?  I can... And you have nothing in your saas platforms that is going to help you build out IP & complimentary products to expand your business.  And, seeing as you are on the subject, do you have any idea what the price of Geo Marketing is?  Your little $200 platform has nothing that will help you with this.
> I know what we do for our clients... I  am well worth the money.  But, I also recognize that the vast majority of business owners just want to be a ma & pa shop.  Nothing wrong with that.  Mundane is good for the majority.  Then you just need a few fliers, put on a demo every now and then, post to your facebook when ever you think about it... you know, all the things that the 200k saas platform subscribers are doing


You cold-call to sell martial arts classes?


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Cold calling - for martial arts students? I’ve been training martial arts for 40 years and I’ve never gotten or heard of someone getting a cold call promoting a martial arts school. If I did get one, it wouldn’t particularly motivate me to visit that school.
> 
> Offhand, given the percentage of people who express interest in martial arts that actually show up for training and stick around, I’m skeptical that cold calling would produce enough students to make it financially worthwhile. But maybe I’m wrong. I remember reading about a chain of karate schools (in Australia, I think) that operates on a sort of MLM/door-to-door sales model and is apparently making money. (If not producing competent martial artists.)


You beat me to it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 5, 2022)

bushido said:


> I will just say, again, that if your idea of growing your business is just filling your student roster, you're just looking for a handful of students, just do some flyers, etc...
> But that is a very limited view of your profit potential...  Why would you not want to monetize your website?   Even if it is only through affiliate links or ppc banners?  Why not have a cool looking brand and sell workout clothing?  Supplements with your logo on them?  Video courses?  And on & on & on... All you need is the structure, something to sell, the traffic and the leads.
> That is all stuff I think every business owner should be doing in one way or another.
> You do what you think is right for you and yours.  Some just want a small gym, some want to grow beyond that.  That's why you look at marketing.
> ...


Workout clothing?  To sell to the public in places like Target? Like Tapout?  I dunno.  Ive got two students, we meet in the city park.  Who is gonna buy workout clothing with my logo on it?  Maybe my two students MIGHT buy a tee shirt if I had one made up, out of their sense of goodwill to support what I do. But beyond that?  Nobody.  I think you aren’t really looking at this on a level of what people are actually trying to do, or what makes sense.  Some of us are really just trying to teach quality martial arts, and looking for revenue tie-ins like a line of workout clothing, just isn’t part of what is important.  Maybe that’s why there is a lot of low quality martial arts instruction: because people are too distracted with looking for revenue streams, and don’t focus on quality training.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 6, 2022)

bushido said:


> I will just say, again, that if your idea of growing your business is just filling your student roster, you're just looking for a handful of students, just do some flyers, etc...
> But that is a very limited view of your profit potential...  Why would you not want to monetize your website?   Even if it is only through affiliate links or ppc banners?  Why not have a cool looking brand and sell workout clothing?  Supplements with your logo on them?  Video courses?  And on & on & on... All you need is the structure, something to sell, the traffic and the leads.
> That is all stuff I think every business owner should be doing in one way or another.
> You do what you think is right for you and yours.  Some just want a small gym, some want to grow beyond that.  That's why you look at marketing.
> ...


I agree with you, if this is your livelihood. Plenty of people do have that desire for a gym being their main source of income, and to expand on that as much as possible. 

There are also a lot of martial artists though that don't have that. When I taught in the past, the main sensei had to argue with me to pay me. I felt like free lessons from him was more than enough. Similarly, he gave free lessons to people that needed it, and I've no idea how their dojo remains open. A lot of us just want to share our knowledge and grow people we can train with, money isn't the goal. For those people, marketing in general isn't exactly needed.

It is a limitation though that I think most of us haven't considered-if we can earn more money with minimal effort, and not have a negative impact on students, why are we not doing that?


----------



## WaterGal (Feb 7, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> The more I think about it, the more it feels like their numbers would apply to a gym run by a recognizable name, like an MMA fighter. In that kind of situation, both the numbers and the branded add-ons to the business seem appropriate.



I'm thinking a large franchise operation. If you're, I don't know, Gracie Barra or Premiere, you can probably sell a lot of wholesale t-shirts and so forth to your franchise locations for them to sell to their students. And you might end up collecting a large numbers of leads that you pass on to the local franchisees to follow up on.


----------

