# Haganah a Sad Dissapointment



## KyleShort (Mar 15, 2004)

I started reading about Haganah, and more specifically their F.I.G.H.T (Ferce Israeli Guerilla Hand-to-Hand Tactics) subsystem about six months ago.  In that time I have done a lot of research that really intrigued so when I a school in my area finally starting offering F.I.G.H.T training.

I went down to the school a few days ago and one of the first questions I asked was, "How did you guys become certified to teach this system?"...note that they were a TKD/Kenpo school.

The answer was appalling...the instructor had flown to Florida a few months before.  He spent 5, count them, 5 days in instructor training at the haganah school, paid his dues and became a certified instructor.

No thanks, I'm not about to learn a system from someone who has had 5 days of total training in that system...no matter how simple it is.  Does anyone know if this is standard operating practice for F.I.G.H.T...to license people who have very minimal time, but are willing to pay the dough?


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## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2004)

I don't have any experience in it, but from everything I've read about it in industry trades, that seems to be pretty much standard practice.


-Rob


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## grimfang (Mar 15, 2004)

I have no firsthand experience with it, but from what i see on the F.I.G.H.T.  'official website', it seems to me that its pretty much a "certificate-by-mail' program. They are more than happy to sell you the dvds, manuals, and anything else you need to become a certified instructor quickly.  
http://fight2survive.com/default.aspx

The history of the Haganah given on the site only discusses this particular system, and not the actual history of the Haganah itself ( the Yishuv underground military that initially formed during the arab riots of the 1920-1921). I know that has nothing to do with your question, but i thought it was worth mentioning.


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## 7starmantis (Mar 15, 2004)

I was just recently presented with a flyer from a TKD school in my area who began teching the Haganah FIGHT cirriculum. I was going to ask online here about it, but this saves me the trouble. I do still plan on attending their free session to see for myself. From their website (which I see is allready been posted) it seems pretty normal practice, what you experienced. From what this school told me (which could be a load of crap) they have almost doubled their student population with this system.  

I'll post on here what I think when I get out their and try it out myself.

7sm


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## RHD (Mar 15, 2004)

The only effective thing you can learn from these types of schools is how to bring suckers in through your doors and drain them of thier funds by capitalizing on thier ignorance.
Mike


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## 7starmantis (Mar 15, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> The only effective thing you can learn from these types of schools is how to bring suckers in through your doors and drain them of thier funds by capitalizing on thier ignorance.
> Mike


Hmm, now that gets me to thinking....these guys aren't going to be martial artsist in the sense of dedicating their lives to it. Maybe I should be making the money off their ignorance, they are going to go spend it somewhere aren't they, why not with me?

7sm


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## Thesemindz (Mar 15, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> The only effective thing you can learn from these types of schools is how to bring suckers in through your doors and drain them of thier funds by capitalizing on thier ignorance.
> Mike




Generally the cynic in me tends to agree. However, I would like to point out that often the methods taught in these sorts of classes aren't really bad, and might even work most of the time. It's the training that is the problem. You could probably Tae-Bo the crap out of most people, if you trained Tae-Bo that way. Most people go into one of these "quicky" self defense classes, learn a few moves, and then never practice again. 

Hmmm, then again, I see people do that in Kenpo too. And alot of those people think they are bad mamma-jammas. One of the points I think I could agree with all the MMA junkies here on is that you have to train, constantly, to be any good. Time off is fine, and we all have to work sometimes, but two weeks of lessons and a lifetime of sitting on my butt leaves me with a flat butt and little else.


-Rob


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## 8253 (Mar 15, 2004)

that dont even sound right


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## MJS (Mar 16, 2004)

How the hell can ANYONE get certified to teach ANYTHING in 5 days???????????  I've looked at the site, but I dont recall seeing anything that mentioned a time frame as to how long it took.  Maybe I missed it.  In any case, I guess it just proves that before someone starts training in any MA, they take the time and do a little research.  Sure, its not gonna be an easy task, but its worth it if you dont want to be giving your money to someone who is not what they say they are.

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 16, 2004)

KyleShort said:
			
		

> I started reading about Haganah, and more specifically their F.I.G.H.T (Ferce Israeli Guerilla Hand-to-Hand Tactics) subsystem about six months ago.  In that time I have done a lot of research that really intrigued so when I a school in my area finally starting offering F.I.G.H.T training.
> 
> I went down to the school a few days ago and one of the first questions I asked was, "How did you guys become certified to teach this system?"...note that they were a TKD/Kenpo school.
> 
> ...


Its not uncommon at all for experienced Martial  artists to become certified in these systems. How much different do you think Hagana is from Kenpo? Doesn't years and years of working "Basic motion" count for something? 
Sean


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## Black Bear (Mar 16, 2004)

Now I'm not saying by any means that Haganah is GOOD. I don't know a thing about it. But keep in mind that other systems like JKD offer instructor certs in a week or so. Vunak's PFS/RAT method for instance, certifies people who visit him briefly and train intensely over a few days. Same with the Blauer PDR program. A week or two. 

The way in which many martial arts teach combat is often horribly inefficient. If this is say fifty hours of intensive training, one on one or a small group, then you can learn a lot of stuff. 

Fighting/self-defense is not difficult or complex. If conditions are optimal, a person should be able to learn it as quick as they can learn standard first aid or drywalling. I'm not saying 5 days makes a self-defense instructor. I'm saying 5 days you could internalize the new material. Presumably the person has some sort of physical education/combat expertise in the first place.


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## KyleShort (Mar 17, 2004)

Black Bear I totally agree with you, especially if the student has had previous experience.  However that having been said, how good is the knowlege retention after 5 days of training.  Would you have crammed so much in that it would be nigh impossible to turn around and begin teaching an entirely green set of students...all the while looking out for the subtle physical and psycholigical intricacies that make up the system?

Also something that I should note is that the program in the school that I mentioned works on three basic four month rotations.  As a student you work through your first four months of training and then cycle back through a second time with a focus on more advanced application.  The third time you focus on tactical knife fighting and lethal force tactics.

That generates a few problems for me.  First, is five days of training really sufficient for learning enough material to make 12 months of training worth while?  Second, if the instructor can pack it all in to 5 days, why the hell should the student go through three, four month rotations?  And third, is 5 days enough to crank out an instructor capable of teaching tactical knife fighting (note that this includes knife to knife and knife to empty hand).

As you said, you are not atesting to the ability generate an instructor in 5 days, but you do see value in intense multi-day self defense training, and I have to agree with you on that.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 10, 2004)

Two of the fighting systems I've seen come out of Israel have been a variation of Russian S.A.M.B.O.


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 18, 2004)

A Tang So Do school that I use to teach weapons defense (based on the FMAs) at also teaches Haganah as part of it's curriculmn for the school.  The instructor is a black belt in Tang So Do, Han Mu Do, and instructor in another self defense related system.  He told me that he really liked the program and the weapon defenses especially.

A good friend of mine (and a fellow instructor) who took over the class that I taught, has seen what the school is teaching and he thought it was pretty good.  Although if you currently training in a pretty good self defense related system (one that teaches not only empty hand but weapon defense as well) then it might not seem worth it.

The cycling through the program is for beginners to work on very basic techniques and concepts, then in a few months you go on to using similar/same techniques and build on them.  And so on.  This doens't appear to be the type of program that you have to devote your whole life to to learn (multitude of katas with hidden techniques etc. etc. seeking perfection of the individual) rather hard core basic self defense that the average sally or joe wants to learn.

I mean no disrespect to the tradtional systems or stylists here.  

Mark


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 19, 2004)

Five days of training is more than most military people got insofar as close combat training when I served in the eighties.  Thankfully, that's changed.

If I had a system that I wanted to spread, I might give a five day certification to a person who had previous training and a good sense of martial movement...but the certification would be to run a training group.  They wouldn't be "instructors", nor would I give anyone the impression that five days was enough time to cover a system.  The assumption would be that the people in the training group would have to continue to practice the system and seek further seminar/class instruction with a certified instructor...the latter having had years of practice in the system.  This is sort of what the Sayoc folks do...but they don't hand out a formal certification to run a training group.

All that aside, if I thought a program like this Haganah had some merit and might add to what I allready know, I might spend five days studying it...provided the fees weren't obscene.  I wouldn't hang the certificate on my wall and start teaching it, though.   I seriously doubt that they could show me anything in five days that would have such a dramatic impact on my martial priorities.


Regards,


Steve


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## kenpo tiger (Jul 20, 2004)

Original post by Grimfang: the actual history of the Haganah itself ( the Yishuv underground military that initially formed during the arab riots of the 1920-1921). I know that has nothing to do with your question, but i thought it was worth mentioning.

It is.  I attempted to mention it in another thread.  Thank you for reinforcing it.

As to all the comments about how effective something could be that is learned in only five days, see HardheadJarhead's comments about OUR military.  Anyone I've ever spoken to about Krav Maga, including my kenpo brother who is a retired Israeli Army Captain and a Krav Maga instructor, has said that the purpose isn't to create a new art so much as to put the ideas found to be most effective in hand-to-hand combat into a usable format. (Sorry for the run-on, but ---!)  I don't think it's intended to be a full-fledged martial art.  That is probably an Americanization.

TheseMindz, as a kenpo black belt, I (respectfully) wonder at your comment about "mammajammas".  Please explain.  Kenpo Tiger:asian:


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 21, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Five days of training is more than most military people got insofar as close combat training when I served in the eighties.  Thankfully, that's changed.
> 
> If I had a system that I wanted to spread, I might give a five day certification to a person who had previous training and a good sense of martial movement...but the certification would be to run a training group.  They wouldn't be "instructors", nor would I give anyone the impression that five days was enough time to cover a system.  The assumption would be that the people in the training group would have to continue to practice the system and seek further seminar/class instruction with a certified instructor...the latter having had years of practice in the system.  This is sort of what the Sayoc folks do...but they don't hand out a formal certification to run a training group.
> 
> ...



Steve

This is clearly a marketing driven program, in that you are an instructor and you want to increase enrollment in your school.  However you don't want to subject your self to going through years of learning another art when you already have many of the skills and concepts needed to defend your self.  So you pick up a system like this to try and reach out to the adult market that is looking for self defense training but not interested in learning a "Tradtional art".

This would by why you are an "instructor" in the system and not just a leader in a study group.  Somebody has to lead it and that person is generally an instructor.  So you would hang your certificate on the wall to show you had training and that certified to teach the program.

However these programs I think are based on group or class organizers like you said, more so than black blets in a system.  For instance at the Krav MagA school (or the school that taught KM and Tang Soo Do) the instructor was only allowed (at that time) to teach to blue belt.  and they were required to get additional training and have the instructors from the head school come out X amount of times per year for quailty control purposes.  This again was a marketing approach, Haganah just has a different approach.

Mark


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 21, 2004)

Thanks for the explanation, Mark.



Steve


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