# Vitamins and Supplements?



## Jason Striker II (Feb 25, 2012)

Just wondering who takes what? At 50, training 5 days per week, I take a multiple and 200 mg of E Mon.  - Fri.  with dinner.


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## oaktree (Feb 25, 2012)

Coq-10,Huang ti thats it on a regular basis. I take herbs from a trusted source only
If I'm ill. Mostly just eat healthy and that's it.
Many supplements are poisons.


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## seasoned (Feb 25, 2012)

Too much info for everyone, deleted it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 25, 2012)

I've said it before, I'll say it again; I think most of them are crap, bad science, and possibly dangerous.

http://www.webmd.com/fda/fortify-your-knowledge-about-vitamins

Not to mention the fact that a bunch of studies have shown that most of the crap sold OTC isn't even what it says it is anyway; it's something else or the wrong dose, so it's a total crap-shoot.  Bad science, foolish people, fools and their money, etc, etc.

I take 500mg Metformin twice a day because I'm diabetic.  I also take a low dose of Vitamin D because my last blood test showed that I was low; and my doctor recommended it.  I doubt it will do anything, but after investigating, I'm at least convinced it will do no harm at the low dose I'm taking.

I think people are way too willing to believe bogus science.  It's their own business, but sticking pills down your throat just because someone said it did something is pretty damned dumb, IMHO.  You're screwing with your own life in a way that you might not be able to recover from.

The people who took Fen-Phen for weight loss thought it was pretty good stuff.  Worked, too.  Until it wrecked their heart valves.  Yeah, fix that.  Worth the little bit of weight they lost?

And everybody assumes they're WAY smarter than the people who took Fen-Phen, they would not be fooled by some quack merchandise.  Yeah, right.

Like 'Head On', the stuff that everyone claimed cured headaches.  The ads never claimed it did ANYTHING, which was good because it was made out of wax and didn't do anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeadOn

Supplements are pretty much the same thing.  Junk science sold to desperate people who WANT to believe it does something for WAY too much money.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 25, 2012)

seasoned said:


> Call me crazy, but, I have been doing this for many many years.



OK, you're crazy.

Until I got the diabetes, my regimen consisted of a Jack and Coke every Friday night.  Repeat until sleepy or tired of listening to Frank Sinatra.  Go to bed.  Repeat following Friday.


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## seasoned (Feb 25, 2012)

Take a look at some of the food we eat with the pesticides, growth hormones, preservatives in it. Vitamins and supplements are a good alternative to a poor diet.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 25, 2012)

seasoned said:


> Take a look at some of the food we eat with the pesticides, growth hormones, preservatives in it. Vitamins and supplements are a good alternative to a poor diet.



Junk science on top of junk food.  Just guessing and hoping, is what.


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## seasoned (Feb 25, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Junk science on top of junk food.  Just guessing and hoping, is what.


The OP asked what Vitamins and Supplements everyone was taking. Nobody looking for a fight here, if you don't take Vitamins and Supplements great. The OP was asking who took them, not, lets debate and cut people down. I take Vitamins so there for I'm foolish, dumb, and desperate, your words.  

Nice, way to go.................


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 25, 2012)

seasoned said:


> The OP asked what Vitamins and Supplements everyone was taking. Nobody looking for a fight here, if you don't take Vitamins and Supplements great. The OP was asking who took them, not, lets debate and cut people down. I take Vitamins so there for I'm foolish, dumb, and desperate, your words.
> 
> Nice, way to go.................



Dude, just giving you a hard time.


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## elder999 (Feb 25, 2012)

seasoned said:
			
		

> I take Vitamins so there for I'm foolish, dumb, and desperate, your words.



Foolish, dumb, desperate, and *68, and still doing karate*,and without diabetes, vitamin D deficiency or high blood pressure...:lol:


I pretty much take what Wes takes, with a few additional snake-oils and patent medicines of no significance to anyone but me, I reckon.I had a DVT thrombosis a few years ago, and, rather than take a pharmacological blood thinner, I use a Chinese herbal called spring wine tonic. I also  take what some would call an inordinate amount of vitamin C every day: 3000mg. I'll up it if I even start feeling sick, sometimes as high as 11,000 mg-that much can make me fart something awful, though-horrid, sulfurous, _nasal hair burning_ flatulence that you would think couldn't possibly be human.-I was on the elliptical at the gym once, and let one rip, and the lady on the machine next to me got off her machine and looked at me like I'd eaten her children or something. :lfao:

Oh, Wes deleted his: I take glucosamine, chondroitin, COQ10, fish oil, vitamin C, reservatol, dhea, spring wine tonic, pumpkin seed oil, green tea extract, alpha lipoic acid, polycosinol,  a variety of amino acids, and I think that's about all I'm going to share. At 51, though-nearly 52, I'm 6'1", weigh 215, still do martial arts, still whoop up on kids less than half my age, swim 1 or two miles a week (yes , all at once!) run triathlons, marathons, and ultra-marathons (that's a 50 or 100 mile race,) climb mountains-as in, MOUNTAINS, like Denali, Naga ****ing Parbat, and Everest, as well as regularly r_unning_ up 14ers with Rita-that's the wife, who has yet to collect on my life insurance policy, even on her ridiculous bike rides...:lfao: (want an ***-kicking? Ride up the road to the Santa Fe Ski Basin with that woman...it is to *die*..:lfao:..) ....scuba dive, sail, bench 300 lbs.-_for reps_-and with 32 inch (long)arms, no less- and don't have diabetes-had high blood pressure for about 6 months after I turned 50, and shook it  (and an extra 20 lbs. I thought was "okay") Don't have high cholesterol-though I've certainly got the genetics and diet for it. Cut back on red meat a bit, but we mostly eat bison and game-or free range beef from locals that we trade for, and chickens and turkeys we raise ourselves, anyway, as well as fruit and vegetables we grow ourselves-
I also eat as much fish as I can get......when I can get it-*diet is far more important than all those pills and potions,*IMNSHO.

Closest I come to "junk food" most years is popcorn.

Oh, and I occasionally drink all the beer, wine or mead-all of which I also make- that I want. 

Or all the tequila I can, which is usually just one drink beyond the stupid drink....:lfao:

Whatever works for you, though-that's my motto.....


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## seasoned (Feb 26, 2012)

Good night sleep and back on tract.  As you can see by my pictures in my profile I was never over weight, but did drop 22 pounds and feel like a kid again. Age 69 in 6 weeks, 6&#8221;2&#8221;, weight 186 pounds, BP 120/70 With no meds. I eat as much locally grown organic vegetables as I can get, because of all the pesticides in the store stuff. I eat organic free range chicken and beef, with eggs every morning. I get my water from a spring, but will have wine or vodka when the mood hits me. 
I have trained martial arts for 46 years, and still do 3-4 times a week. Just had knee surgery two weeks ago that went great and I&#8217;m up and moving around. 
I work full time and also do a part time job as a town Constable in (4) local courts. There are no secrets, just eat right, keep moving and training smartly, for your age level. Below are the supplements I have taken for the better part of 30 years.    
(2) Glucosamine & Chondroitin 1.5g                        *Joints*
(4) Bromelain    500mg                        *Joints*
(4) Hyaluronic Acid    100mg    MSM    900mg            *Joints*
(1) Daily One multi vitamin & mineral supplement 
(1) Bausch & Lomb eye vitamin & mineral supplement     *For eyes*
(1) Ginkgo Biloba 120mg 
(2) COQ10 with omega-3 fish oil 60mg
(2) Pycnogenol 30mg                 *Vascular support/ Inflammatory support * 
(2) Saw Palmetto Extract 160mg                  *Prostate health*
(2) Super odorless Garlic, with Hawthorn extract & cayenne 
(2) Alpha Lipoic Acid 600mg                     *Antioxidant*
*Mix together with milk in the morning, and drink.
*Olive oil
Flaxseed oil
Walnuts
Pumpkin seeds
Whey protein isolate
2% Milk 8oz
½ half banana  
½ kiwi
*&#12288;
*


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 26, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Foolish, dumb, desperate, and *68, and still doing karate*,and without diabetes, vitamin D deficiency or high blood pressure...:lol:



You live in NM and I live in MI.  I wasn't Vitamin D deficient when I lived in NM either.

And my BP is normal.

My diabetes is hereditary, and was no doubt exacerbated by my being overweight - which no OTC pill or potion could do anything about, more a factor of my eating too damned much.

Just curious why a scientist would shove a bunch of expensive unproven folk remedies into himself, but even more curious why one would think anecdotal evidence proves anything and even MORE curious as to why a person imbued with logic such as yourself would think I would not recognize a _post hoc ergo propter hoc argument_ when I see one.  I'd ask seasoned the same question, but he's crankypants in this thread.  I say with a smiley.


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## elder999 (Feb 26, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You live in NM and I live in MI. I wasn't Vitamin D deficient when I lived in NM either



I was talking about crankypants, who lives in upstate NY. 

My extra melanin actually makes me more susceptible to vitamin D deficiency.

J





Bill Mattocks said:


> ust curious why a scientist would shove a bunch of expensive unproven folk remedies into himself, but even more curious why one would think anecdotal evidence proves anything and even MORE curious as to why a person imbued with logic such as yourself would think I would not recognize a _post hoc ergo propter hoc argument_ when I see one. I'd ask seasoned the same question, but he's crankypants in this thread. I say with a smiley.




You say anecdotal, I say my knees don't hurt nearly as much as without the glucosamine, for which there are studies that show promise:




> There is promising evidence that glucosamine may reduce pain symptoms of knee osteoarthritis and possibly slow the progression of osteoarthritis. For example, a study published in the journal Archives of Internal Medicine examined people with osteoarthritis over three years. Researchers assessed pain and structural improvements seen on x-ray. They gave 202 people with mild to moderate osteoarthritis 1,500 mg of glucosamine sulfate a day or a placebo.



Of course, there are also recent studies that show it didn't alleviate pain-but it seems to work for me. Should I have my knees hurt, when an unproven folk remedy seems to significantly reduce the pain?

As for vitamins and amino acids, these are proven substances.

BTW, I'm not recommending that you take any of this stuff, and I'm not doing it willy-nilly: I've been under rather extensive medical care all of my life, remember..... 

(And I meant no offense, Bill-just needed to point out the dissonance of someone with health issues of their own scoffing at someone else's regimen)


I'm also not just a scientist, I'm an engineer- I mean, at 50 or more, we've lived past our engineering design basis: mammals generally live long enough for their offspring to raise offspring, which, _engineering wise_, is something like 30-40 for humans. I liken it to the extra care one has to take with a 50 year old or even older machine-and you can't do a frame off restoration on a human body.:lol:

In the end....we all wind up the same way, vitamins or no......whatever works for you, that's my motto....


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 26, 2012)

elder999 said:


> You say anecdotal, I say my knees don't hurt nearly as much without the glucosamine, for which there are studies that show promise:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, there are also recent studies that show it didn't alleviate pain-it seems to work for me. Should I have my knees hurt, when an unproven folk remedy seems to significantly reduce the pain?



No, as I said earlier, people should spend their money on whatever they want and take whatever they want.

However, Fen-Phen.  Using oneself as a laboratory might not harm one; or it might.

In any case, I'm in favor of your knees not hurting.

Of course, my knees don't hurt (they are weak, but that is not the same).  I also wear glasses.  Therefore, wearing glasses prevents my knees from hurting.



> As for vitamins and amino acids, these are proven substances.



Stop right there.  Let's not do the marketing dance, you're not selling and I'm not buying.  Gasoline is a proven substance, but I'm not going to drink any.

Vitamins and various other supplements of various types have been proven to do various things, and are sometimes medically indicated.  That is a far cry from being self-diagnosable and in many cases, mega-doses are actually far more dangerous, even toxic, than having a deficiency.  If one has not been diagnosed as being deficient in a given vitamin or nutrient, it is difficult to say one can benefit from taking it, let alone what the proper dose would be.  A great example would be B12, which is something vegetarians should get in some form since they do not get it in meat.  Meat-eaters, not so much.

And I'm sure you're as familiar as I am with the studies of the off-the-shelf store and national-brand vitamin supplements which showed they contained nothing close to the dosages they indicated, and in some cases, different things entirely.



> BTW, I'm not recommending that you take any of this stuff, and I'm not doing it willy-nilly: I've been under rather extensive medical care all of my life, remember.....



Don't worry, I won't be taking any of it. 



> I'm also not just a scientist, I'm an engineer- I mean, at 50 or more, we've lived past our engineering design basis: mammals generally live long enough for their offspring to raise offspring, which, _engineering wise_, is something like 30-40 for humans. I liken it to the extra care one has to take with a 50 year old or even older machine-and you can't do a frame off restoration on a human body.:lol:
> 
> In the end....we all wind up the same way, vitamins or no......whatever works for you, that's my motto....



I'm in favor of whatever works also.  I just like to know it actually works.  My wife won't wear her Red Wings sweater when they play, because if she does, they lose.  Hey, I'm not going to say a word.  On the other hand, wearing or not wearing it isn't going to endanger her life.

There are lots of arguments pro and con with reference to vitamins and various other supplements.  And the thing is, some of it might work.  Some might be good for you.  Some might be safe.  The problem is the signal to noise ratio.

One problem is that people want to believe.  Normally intelligent people who laugh at old advertisements for patent medicines and various cure-alls of the past will gladly shove anything with an 'Oriental' name or a super marketing pitch into their mouths.  I saw a great ad the other day, made my head explode.  A B12 vitamin pusher was saying that 'B12 deficiency can mimic the effects of aging.'  BRILLIANT!  No one is going to look in the mirror and say _"I look older, perhaps it is because I am getting older."   _  No no!  Now if they look older, they have a B12 deficiency!  Ta-da!  This is a problem with can be solved!

Human nature also not only adopts the placebo effect quickly, but also turns people into devotees, even acolytes.  Especially when someone like me says it's all (or mostly) bunk.  It reminds me of cult members in some extreme cases, people begin insisting that supplement Y works BECAUSE IT WORKS DAMN YOUR EYES, and if a person says it doesn't, they are being personally attacked and their integrity assaulted.

Another tell-tale sign of marketing and the madness of groups is the running from one supplement to another.  Not talking about the multi-vitamin crowd here, but the ones that chase the latest hoojapooja cure-all, often led by the nose by companies with a vested interest in selling that same hoojapooja.  

Another problem is that the FDA does not regulate vitamins or food supplements as to efficacy; but they do regulate some parts of the industry.  This gives the mistaken public impression that if it's advertised or sold, it's true.  People tend to think that if a bottle of vitamin X says it makes your pencil sharp, then it must, or the FDA would not allow it to be sold.  They are mistaken.

And as I have pointed out, and as something an engineer should be well-acquainted with, there is some evidence that quite often the substance one thinks one is ingesting isn't even that substance or that amount.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009...842O20090409?feedType=RSS&feedName=healthNews



> NEW YORK | Thu Apr 9, 2009 3:03pm EDT
> (Reuters Health) - More than 30 percent of multivitamins tested recently by ConsumerLab.com contained significantly more or less of an ingredient than claimed, or were contaminated with lead, the company reports.
> 
> ConsumerLab.com, based in White Plains, New York, is privately held and provides consumer information and independent evaluations of products that affect health and nutrition. According to the company, it is neither owned by nor has a financial interest in any companies that make, distribute or sell consumer products.



Now I've pointed this out before; but the response I often get is a glib _"Oh, you just have to buy your vitamins from a reputable source."_  Uh, that's where the bogus vitamins came from, champ.  That kind of denial is yet another nail in the coffin of the vitamin-and-supplement _"I'm going to live forever"_ crowd.

Bottom line; people should take whatever they want, and if they think it helps them, great.

However, if it irritates them that naysayers like me point out the clothes they are not wearing, perhaps they might consider there's a chance they are not wearing any.

Lots of vitamins and some supplements have known medicinal properties and many more have interesting possibilities; all need to be scientifically explored and developed.  That does not generally indicate shoving pills into one's gaping maw willy-nilly, as you said.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 26, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> No, as I said earlier, people should spend their money on whatever they want and take whatever they want.
> 
> However, Fen-Phen.  Using oneself as a laboratory might not harm one; or it might.
> 
> ...


I cant remember his name, but wasnt the oldest guy in the world a while ago a War Veteran who drank Whiskey and Smoked Cigars?

The way I see it, take Pills if You need them.
Not if You want them.
But thats personal opinion.


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## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2012)

We have the Trade Descriptions Act here which means that what it says on the label has to be true. If it says so many mg. of vitamin C for example that's what it has to have. It can't say something works unless it's proved by the relevant authority, a lot of the vitamins here say 'may be of help, may improve......' They can recommend but not say it's essential to take.


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## Steve (Feb 26, 2012)

Ugh.  My response got eaten by tapatalk.  

Simply put, I try to eat well, eat regularly and I take 8 grams of fish oil every day.  I am a firm believer in it, primarily for joint health.  


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 26, 2012)

Jason Striker II said:


> Just wondering who takes what? At 50, training 5 days per week, I take a multiple and 200 mg of E Mon.  - Fri.  with dinner.



In regards to my regiment, keep two things in mind;  the first is that I'm not to far from retiring.  Second, I'm in training for a natural bodybuilding contest later this year.  

Normal suppliments:

2 daily multivitamins/minerals
100mg CoQ10 x3 taken with L-Carnitine each time
Vitamin D
Vitamin C
B12 w/folic acid x2
Flexin (glucosamine, chondrotin & CM8 for joint health and lower back) x3
Kyolic garlic x4
Olive leaf extract
Beta-sistosterol
Barley grass x2
Ribose powder x2
Nordic natural fish oil
Enzymes with meals

Bodybuilding suppliments:

Taurine 1g
Resveritrol
Whey protein
Kre-Alkalyn (buffered creatine) 1.5 grams (equal to 15 grams of creatine monohydrate)
BCAA x2
Glutamine X3
Ionic Frzz (calcium/magnesium/potassium mix)
Pre-workout drink with beta-alanine, arginine etc (a basic nitric oxide vaso-dialator)

I do a 5-day split (chest, back, legs, shoulders, arms).


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## seasoned (Feb 26, 2012)

Abnormal stools
Changes in taste
Muscle pain
Difficulty breathing
Lightheadedness or dizziness
Nail problems
Flu-like symptoms such as muscle pain, fever, chills, and weakness
Feelings of a rapidly or forcefully beating heart (heart palpitations).
Flushing (a skin reddening, commonly on the face)
Increased sweating
Increased thirst
A short list of Some side effects for Metformin. 

Big Pharmaceutical pumps a lot of money into lobbing for their products. The FDA is in their hip pocket, and approves many drugs that cause a litany of side effects that make the above list minuscule. 

Both sides make a lot of money hawking their wares. Fact is your on one side of the issue and I'm on the other. I'm trying to take no drugs because, where they help in one area they hurt in others. (side effects) I personally fine Vitamins and Supplements a benefit, you don't, and thats ok. 
This whole issue is like politics and religion, many opinions, along with who is telling the truth about their products. Drugs don't heal, they cover up problems.

I won't be debating this issue anymore, I just had a few things to comment on.  

Have a great day.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 26, 2012)

seasoned said:


> Abnormal stools
> Changes in taste
> Muscle pain
> Difficulty breathing
> ...



Then you should know a few more things about Metformin as well.  First, it's long out of patent, so 'Big Pharma' isn't making a fortune on it.  In fact, it was a long-neglected drug that was 'rediscovered' in the 1970s and only approved by the FDA for Type 2 diabetes in 1994.  It's also the only known drug for diabetes that is scientifically proven to prevent the cardiovascular effects of diabetes.  And fortunately for me, I'm one of the majority of people who do not seem experience the side-effects of Metformin.

Big Pharma is well aware of the fact that Diabetes is a huge market for them; the number of people with Diabetes is monstrous and growing.  And what they really love (and where the majority of the hocus-pocus you describe is going on) is in the area of new drug research and marketing.  Big Pharma does not want to sell a very cheap, non-patented drug that makes them no major money.  They want a big expensive new drug that they have a patent on.  You'll notice there are no television commercials for Metformin.  There's a reason for that, even though it is the single most-prescribed drug for Diabetes in the world.



> Both sides make a lot of money hawking their wares. Fact is your on one side of the issue and I'm on the other. I'm trying to take no drugs because, where they help in one area they hurt in others. (side effects) I personally fine Vitamins and Supplements a benefit, you don't, and thats ok.



I try not to take anything, period.  I didn't take anything at all until I got the diabetes, and I only take Metformin because I know what happened when I was diagnosed; I was essentially dying.  So not dying is a good reason for me.

As to the FDA being in the hip pocket of Big Pharma, I can't argue it's not true.  However, that leaves one with two choices.  A flawed system designed to test efficacy or no system at all.  Hmm... On balance, I think I'll take the flawed system and do whatever I can to agitate to make it better.



> This whole issue is like politics and religion, many opinions, along with who is telling the truth about their products. Drugs don't heal, they cover up problems.



Metformin reduces my blood sugar.  Provably.  Since my body no longer processes sugar properly, that's not a cover-up, that's a fix.  There is no cure for diabetes presently.

As for it being like religion, I agree.  However, in this case, I'm an agnostic on both sides of the issue.



> I won't be debating this issue anymore, I just had a few things to comment on.
> 
> Have a great day.



Ultimately, your comparison of medical science versus vitamins and supplements being like religion is apt.  However, there is a major difference.  If a person is religious and there is no actual Creator, they have lost little by believing.  If a person refuses to believe medical science and turns to unproven areas of health supplements, they may do themselves quite a bit of harm - I say again Fen-Phen.

We laugh at the beliefs people used to have in patent medicines, and some of them were truly dangerous as well as silly:

http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/quackcures/arium.htm



> Quoting an advertisement that appeared in the February 9, 1923 issue of the Newark Ohio Advocate:
> "Radium ends agony of rheumatism. Neuritis, neuralgia and gout. Say doctors - How Arium - radium in simple harmless tablets often bring amazingly quick and lasting relief to even seemingly hopeless cases. $5,000,000 reward if they fail."



And the latest phony-baloney supplement is different because WHY?


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## Jason Striker II (Feb 26, 2012)

Wow! I want to thank all for the (albeit, occasionally heated) replies. I really didn't know there were such strong feelings on this. For me, I simply view the very limited vitamins I regularly take as a minor insurance if my diet, which I try to be careful about, happens to miss something. 

Using the Multi and E as a base, I also add something new to see if I get any improvement - and never really notice much. For example, recently added garlic extract as an alleged anti-toxin.


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## seasoned (Feb 26, 2012)

Jason Striker II said:


> Wow! I want to thank all for the (albeit, occasionally heated) replies. I really didn't know there were such strong feelings on this. For me, I simply view the very limited vitamins I regularly take as a minor insurance if my diet, which I try to be careful about, happens to miss something.
> 
> Using the Multi and E as a base, _*I also add something new to see if I get any improvement - and never really notice much. For example, recently added garlic extract as an alleged anti-toxin*_.


As you know, for there to be a difference, or you notice something, it would take a while to show up with vitamins. Drugs address a symptom, you have a headache, take an aspirin and in a short time it goes away, hence the cover up effect.   
Vitamins and Supplements address the root cause, which in most cases would be to straighten the immune system. Just a thought...........


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 26, 2012)

Jason Striker II said:


> Wow! I want to thank all for the (albeit, occasionally heated) replies. I really didn't know there were such strong feelings on this. For me, I simply view the very limited vitamins I regularly take as a minor insurance if my diet, which I try to be careful about, happens to miss something.
> 
> Using the Multi and E as a base, I also add something new to see if I get any improvement - and never really notice much. For example, recently added garlic extract as an alleged anti-toxin.



Just playing Devil's Advocate for a moment here...

How do you know that the pills you take contain what they say they contain?

How do you know that the pills you take do you no harm even if they do contain what you think they contain?

Supposing you do 'notice something', how do you know it's due to some new pill you've added to your regimen?


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## elder999 (Feb 26, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Just playing Devil's Advocate for a moment here...
> 
> How do you know that the pills ?



How do you know your metformin* is *metformin?

How do you know your glucosemeter/strips actually *work*?

Just playing Devil's Advocate here....:lol:


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 26, 2012)

elder999 said:


> How do you know your metformin* is *metformin?



Indeed, I do not personally know if it is.  However, since it is a controlled substance, which is obtained from a pharmacy under a doctor's prescription and subject to a number of federal protocols concerning manufacture, distribution channels, and dispensing, I can have a high level of confidence.  In addition, I have quarterly blood work done to show my A1C level.  If it rises significantly, that would be an indicator that things are not kosher.  An untreated diabetic is something that can tested and demonstrated to be true or false.



> How do you know your glucosemeter/strips actually *work*?
> 
> Just playing Devil's Advocate here....:lol:



I don't.  Consumer-level testing equipment is known to have as much as 20% error built in, which is a rather large fudge-factor IMHO.  However, my testing jibes with my quarterly A1C, and together, they give me a high level of assurance.  In addition, they have a number of safety factors built in, including automatic expiration of strips exposed but not used after a period of time, and my test kit has a test fluid which verifies the meter accuracy internally like a calibration test when I use it.

And let us also consider for a moment the enormous liability any national drugstore chain or drug maker would suffer if it were determined that they had distributed bogus pharmaceuticals which could put many at risk of disease; compare that to the known issues with vitamins and supplements not being as described or even containing lead or other dangerous substances, but which are much less controlled and which if a person is deprived of them, they do not suffer ill effects?

I think my Metformin supply is rather safe.  Nothing is perfect, but I believe the odds are far better for my Metformin than for the average bottle of Vitamin X, Y, or Z from an OTC pharmacy shelf or health food store.


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## elder999 (Feb 26, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think my Metformin supply is rather safe. Nothing is perfect, but I believe the odds are far better for my Metformin than for the average bottle of Vitamin X, Y, or Z from an OTC pharmacy shelf or health food store.



Most of my supplements are far from "the average bottle of Vitamin X, Y, or Z from an OTC pharmacy shelf or health food store," nor is there any profit in some for them being any less than what they purport to be-their manufacture would cost as much for the real thing as "faking it."


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 26, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Most of my supplements are far from "the average bottle of Vitamin X, Y, or Z from an OTC pharmacy shelf or health food store," nor is there any profit in some for them being any less than what they purport to be-their manufacture would cost as much for the real thing as "faking it."



Where do you suppose the average consumer of supplements and vitamins gets them?  You may have managed to secure a safe supply; do you think most people buy their supplements and vitamins in the same way?

And indeed, a quick glance at the FDA's website shows that there have been counterfeit drugs such as Metformin found in the distribution channel.  Fortunately, such things seem to be limited to those who purchase their prescription drugs from overseas via mail order and a few no-name single-location pharmacies in Philly and Brooklyn (big surprise, eh?).  In the case of the pharmacies, the FDA has ordered recalls and shut the Guidos down.

With regard to the OTC vitamins and supplements, while it may indeed be cheaper to make the actual vitamins than a lethal substitute, that still does not address reports of widely-varying dosages from lot to lot, maker to maker, in contravention of what's claimed on the label, nor does it address issues of oversight such as those that allowed Chinese powdered milk to end up with lethal levels of fertilizer in them, as an example.  The studies which have shown common OTC vitamins and supplements to contain lead or simply not have the amounts of whatever claimed inside of them are stated to be at 30%.  At best, you're running about a 1/3 chance of getting a fake or the wrong dosage or toxins like lead in your vitamin pills if you buy them at the typical grocery store, pharmacy, or health food store.  I'm not sure what argument could be made in favor of continuing to buy such products given that knowledge.


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## oaktree (Feb 26, 2012)

Bill does have a point to a degree. Alot of the things sold in supplement shops are 1.low quality 2. bad scientific studies 3. ingredients to low or not even in the item the label says it contains. Bill is correct that it is not regulated. Now with that said it does not mean every supplement you buy is or has the three things I listed but it is up to the consumer to research the material using credible sources such as studies published in Peer reviews or web sites like the Mayo clinic vs the teenager at GNC. 

http://www.quackwatch.com/02ConsumerProtection/kessler.html
http://www.quackwatch.com/02ConsumerProtection/dshea.html


So if you are going to take supplements you should be doing quite alot of research on the supplement and the company that sells it which is just my opinion from once being a manger at a vitamin shoppe which I quit due not being allowed to disclose this type of information I am sharing now.


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## seasoned (Feb 26, 2012)

The FDA has been trying to regulate  Supplements for a long time, but not for all the right reasons. 

Also, there are fly by night vitamins just like anything else. The motto is "consumer beware". Vitamins produce results or people would not be using them.

Bill did point me toward web-MD of which I checked it out. I searched immune system, and immune system enhancement and found guide lines and info on both. Anyone serious about their health should look it up. 

My take on this whole thing is, take care of yourself in the first place, eat right, exercise, and lay off the health robbing things in our eating habits that contribute to bad health, (too much sugar and too many simple carbs, white bread and the like. 

I know it is easier said then done and things happen, high BP, high cholesterol. When this gets out of control from neglect, then go to the Doctor and take his pills, but, we also need to take control of our own fate and clean up our act. 

There are people that are diagnosed with what ever, are over weight, get their meds, get their problem under control and never address the over weight problem which anybody will tell you, is one root cause of many issues. Another consideration is our food because of mass production simply is not the same vitamin rich product it was in earlier times. Trying to feed an ever growing population is daunting, to say the least. Hence, people in their quest for health turn to Vitamins and Supplements as a magic bullet. Health is a life style not a fad, take control yourself, there is a great place to start first.


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