# Are your classes physically tough?



## Lynne (Sep 3, 2008)

Gee, I'm really curious what other people's classes are like.  Most of our adult classes are an hour long; a few are 45 minutes but a lot can be packed into 45 minutes.

Do you have Hell Week's or particularly hard weeks, all pointedly working on conditioning?  

Do you have people try out during a particularly rough class and wonder if they will come back?  Do they come back?

Our instructors make the classes rougher when people are trying out so they will know what they are getting themselves into.  

I felt bad for two people trying out last night.  Also, one of our white belts got overheated (something or another) and had to sit out.

Last night was a sort of welcome back to those who had slacked off a bit during the last two months, aka, "you are going to suffer tonight."  I would say I'd think twice about skipping classes during the summer if it were me!  I know life happens though.  Some of my classmates are going to be hurting today or tomorrow.

We did a few stretches and then got into blocking, punching, kicking combinations which was a great warmup.  Then we did pushups, sprinting in place, and then squat thrusts.  We did three sets.  Phew.... then we went to forms and did some more squat thrusts, then punching/kicking drills.  Then we sparred.  We ran 5 laps around the dojang.  Then we sparred some more.

I didn't go the morning class.  I heard they did plyometric jumps in addition to the above.

Two January's ago, Hell Week after Christmas was so bad my daughter could hardly walk for 5 days.  One of the adults is a nurse and had to crawl up the stairs to get to patients.  Sounds extreme?  Not really.  They did a lot of plyometric jumps in that class and walking lunges with front kicks.

Ahhh...I need the discpline to do squat thrusts, plyometrics, walking lunges, etc.,  at home.  I thought I was doing ok because I'm practicing TSD at least an hour a day.  Pffft...


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## JoelD (Sep 3, 2008)

Wow... sounds like tough classes. Ours arent THAT physically demanding but i do go home sore quite a bit. I have lost roughly 20 lbs since i started so we are certainly working at it. I could still use alot of work on my stamina as i was a smoker for most of my life and i think that doesnt help me going forward.

Also, We arent a very big dojang so there isnt alot of time for classes that are only for "conditioning". We only meet 2 days a week for threee classes (i.e. 6 classes a week, i take four of them) so our time is usually used for our requirements like Il Soo Sik, Ho Sin Sool, Forms, Sparring, Basics(Soo Gi Jok Gi) and Korean Terminology. Its alot to pack into so few classes but when i meet students from other large dojangs in my region i don't feel like i am behind.


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## thesandman (Sep 3, 2008)

My classes (the ones I teach) CAN be phycially exhausting, but more often than not they're just a solid workout.  My adult classes are generally 1.5 hours, with 30mins devoted to stretching and exercise and the remaining hour to instruction.  In my school though, this can vary greatly from instructor to instructor.  The woman who did most of my training, Master Susan Serota, is a huge fan of pilates.  Brutal pilates.  *shudder*

Whenever I attend her class I feel as though I might not be able to leave under my own power.

So you never really know for us.  I've done whole classes of stretching.  I've done only a minimal physical workout and spent the whole class working on understanding concepts that had very little physical activity at all.  Just depends on what needs to be done for the balance of everyones training.


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## JWLuiza (Sep 3, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Gee, I'm really curious what other people's classes are like.  Most of our adult classes are an hour long; a few are 45 minutes but a lot can be packed into 45 minutes.


All of our classes are 90 minutes for adults. Our Friday Night work out is 120-150 minutes depending on who works there.



> Do you have Hell Week's or particularly hard weeks, all pointedly working on conditioning?


No. Conditioning is for the student to do on their own. We teach how to do it, but our classes are for learning.


> Do you have people try out during a particularly rough class and wonder if they will come back?  Do they come back?


No, because beginners are grouped together and allowed to come up to speed.


> Our instructors make the classes rougher when people are trying out so they will know what they are getting themselves into.
> 
> I felt bad for two people trying out last night.  Also, one of our white belts got overheated (something or another) and had to sit out.
> 
> ...



Conditioning is good. And when you have lots of classes it can be helpful to include the conditioning. Consistency is the key in being able to keep up with that activity level.


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## Kacey (Sep 3, 2008)

Our classes are 90 minutes, including 15-20 minutes of warm-ups (stretching and calisthenics).  The level of physical exertion will vary by class and what we're working on that night.  New students are given individual instruction for the first 4 nights.  I see no reason to make class _harder_ for new students - I see no purpose in driving people away.  Conditioning exercises and methods are taught in class - but as JWLuiza said, class is for instruction; conditioning can be done anywhere.  Students will either make it up to the level of class, or they won't progress - but I will teach anyone who is willing to try (and that includes two of my students who are developmentally delayed, one of whom also has cerebral palsy - it takes them a lot longer to progress, but they do progress).


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## Jade Tigress (Sep 3, 2008)

ALL of our classes are physically tough. They run 1 1/2 hours minimum up to 2 hours at times. The first half hour or so consists of conditioning and qigong exercises, VERY brutal and we're always sweating our butts off before we even start training. 

New students are taught the warm ups at their pace. An instructor works with them one on one while one of the upper ranks leads the standard warm up. New students are encouraged that by keeping up with it they will get to the point of others in the class. It's hard for everyone at first. 

Some stay, many leave. When I first started training at this school I had been training in another style of kung fu for 2 years. I was very fit and in good shape. That said, I got through the warm ups easier than most. Someone told me I'd be sore the next day. I thought, nah, I'm used to this. The next day I felt fine. I thought, HA! The day after that I was SO SORE (in a good way), that's what I get for thinking I had it down no problem. 

So yeah, our classes are physically tough. And that's just the warm up, training isn't any easier. But, I love it. I love the challenge. It's no fun when you're already exhausted after a long day of work though, heh.


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## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 4, 2008)

I think you need to suit individuals needs don't you? I personally am a big fan of tough exercise lessons and conditiong, but you can't expect everyone to do it all the time. Just a quic question to add on: Do you (or your instructors) take into account the physical condition of your students when you have these lessons?

Remember, sometimes overdoing it to the extreme on a regular basis can be counterproductive and potentially damaging in the long term.


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## Jade Tigress (Sep 4, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> I think you need to suit individuals needs don't you? I personally am a big fan of tough exercise lessons and conditiong, but you can't expect everyone to do it all the time. Just a quic question to add on: Do you (or your instructors) take into account the physical condition of your students when you have these lessons?
> 
> Remember, sometimes overdoing it to the extreme on a regular basis can be counterproductive and potentially damaging in the long term.



Did you read this?



			
				Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> *New students are taught the warm ups at their pace. An instructor works with them one on one* while one of the upper ranks leads the standard warm up. New students are encouraged that by keeping up with it they will get to the point of others in the class. It's hard for everyone at first.


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## Hyper_Shadow (Sep 4, 2008)

Yeah, apologies if the reply sounded a little shallow. But I'm referring more to long term students who have physical restrictions that means they are only capable of so much. It can be damaging sometimes to encourage more activityif they have an existing condition.


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## terryl965 (Sep 4, 2008)

Only if you like to sweat and hurt, other wise they are just a normal day in the park.:erg:


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## Jade Tigress (Sep 4, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> Yeah, apologies if the reply sounded a little shallow. But I'm referring more to long term students who have physical restrictions that means they are only capable of so much. It can be damaging sometimes to encourage more activityif they have an existing condition.




No one is ever pushed beyond their capabilities. That would just be stupid. Just because the class is tough doesn't mean common sense flies out the window. We have students of varying abilities, the only thing expected is that you do the best to your _ability_. Physical restrictions are ALWAYS taken into account. Everyone is different, we're not expected to be machines. 

We have had people training for many years, no one has ever suffered an injury.  You have no idea what our warm ups consist of, I'd be curious to hear what you envision. Where did I give the impression students are pushed *beyond* their capabilities? 

I'll give an example, horse-stance, some can go lower, some can hold it longer. New students are taught proper form so they do it correctly and _avoid injury_. One-arm push ups, most starting off can't do them. They are taught what a proper one consists of and then taught how to modify it _to their ability_. That may mean resting a leg on the ground, or just doing regular push-ups until more strength is acquired. 

New students aren't thrown into the general class to try and follow along with minimal assistance, that's how an injury may occur. A new student watching everyone else sit in horse stance is likely to turn the knees and feet out, tip the pelvis too far in or too far out, etc. Their legs usually start to ache within seconds, but they are told it's normal and with practice their legs will get stronger so they too can hold a proper horse stance for the required amount of time.

These are general and tiny examples, but I hope I was clear. Our Sifu has been instructing for 26-years without injuring any of his students. I train Jook Lum Southern Praying Mantis. It's a difficult system to learn and not for everyone. Some students come in expecting something entirely different, when they find out it's actually work, they tend to fade away. 

So, in a nutshell, our classes are ALWAYS physically difficult, but physically difficult for me is at a different level than physically difficult for someone else. I'm pushed to the best of MY abililities as is each person. We are individuals after all.

I think new students are quite fortunate to have one on one instruction to make sure they are doing things properly and avoid injury, rather than throw them into class to follow along with occasional correction.


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## Andy Moynihan (Sep 4, 2008)

Judo.

'Nuff said. (said Andy while nursing bruised ribs from a week back and still hasn't missed a class).


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## claireg31 (Sep 4, 2008)

Just throwing in say on it all.

I guess our class are lucky in the respect that we have very kind Master. Yes our classes are hardwork, but never to the point of exhaustion. At the beginning of every class we are told the same, work to your own ability, don't push yourself too far and if you have any injuries now your limits.

Class aren't easy by any means but we aren't pushed to the limit that we no longer enjoy class, that would defeat the purpose.

If we have new students coming along to try out then yes, classes possibly are a bit more hard, but it lets them see the discipline involved too.

There is another TSD class in the town where i live and i know that they are pushed alot harder than ourselves, i also know that they don't have the same enjoyment as our class, each instructor has there own way of running a class.

I like a class where i am tired afterwards and feel like i've had a workout, its reaping the benefits!


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## Drac (Sep 4, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Gee, I'm really curious what other people's classes are like. Most of our adult classes are an hour long; a few are 45 minutes but a lot can be packed into 45 minutes.


 
Our classes are an hour and a half..



Lynne said:


> Do you have Hell Week's or particularly hard weeks, all pointedly working on conditioning?


 
Nope 



Lynne said:


> Do you have people try out during a particularly rough class and wonder if they will come back? Do they come back?


 
We no not beat up on visitors or quests..We *WANT* them to come back..



			
				Lynne said:
			
		

> ;Our instructors make the classes rougher when people are trying out so they will know what they are getting themselves into.


 
Each school to its own, we don't..Attracting new students is tough enough with scaring away prospective ones by beating the crap outta them.. 



			
				Lynne said:
			
		

> ;I felt bad for two people trying out last night. Also, one of our white belts got overheated (something or another) and had to sit out.
> 
> Last night was a sort of welcome back to those who had slacked off a bit during the last two months, aka, "you are going to suffer tonight." I would say I'd think twice about skipping classes during the summer if it were me! I know life happens though. Some of my classmates are going to be hurting today or tomorrow.


 
Like I said, each school to its own...


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## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

Thanks, everyone, for the replies.

It's interesting how our schools differ in training/exercise methods.  I will never forget my first trial class. I'm not sure people believed me here when I posted about it.  We were even doing flying sidekicks that first day...I didn't know what the heck I was doing but I tried.  I was sore for 5 days after.

Our instructors push us to do our best. But take me with my rotten feet.  They are only getting worse and sometimes I can't do squat thrusts because of the pain.  I will do as many as I can and then modify by doing something else.

Sure, we have people in class who have this problem or that.  We also have some newbies, one in his 70's and two in their mid-upper 50's.  We have some very overweight persons,too.  No one is expected to keep up with their seniors, only do what they can.

Everyone is in the same class though there are special black belt and IL Gup classes.  After a short warm-up, we break up into groups by belt color.  We usually have about 4-5 instructors on the floor.  We rotate amongst instructors, doing kicking drills with one instructor, forms with another, etc.  Sometimes, the entire class forms lines and practices stepping combinations according to our belt level material.

Often I wish that our classes were longer because I love Tang Soo Do.  However, after 3 - 4 sparring sessions of 3 - 4 minutes at the end of class I'm ready to die.  Then we do laps afterwards sometimes.  I am definitely ready for class to be over with.  We rarely do cooldowns and I should actually stay and do that on my own to stretch these middle-aged muscles.  I need flexibility.  By the way, we only spar about two weeks out of the month.  I wish we had longer classes and sparred every class.

As far as instruction, it can be challenging learning wrist grips and hand combinations.  We go over those about two weeks out of a month - that means one week we study wrist grips and one week we study hand combinations.  We have been told it's up to us to study outside of class.  Additionally, I belong to black belt club and that week we rarely work on our regular class stuff.

Testing is scheduled.  A student can look on the test sheet and see when their test/spotlight/midterm is coming up.  I see too many people panicking 10 minutes before a test because they don't know their wrist grips or hand combinations.  Testing is stressful enough without that.  I Practice a few times a week (in the air) and visualize often before sleeping.  I also have the school DVD's.  Books are available, too.

I do believe it would be nice to have more time for instruction.  We'd need at least 90 minutes though.

As far as our conditioning, we must be very conditioned to pass our Il Gup and Cho Dan tests.  IL Gups must do 60-80 squat thrusts, certain amounts of kicks in X time, and who knows what else during the 5-hour test.  Also, IL Gups have to run 5 miles (no walking) unless they have a physical problem.  So, our conditioning in class is preparing us for the hard endurance work that comes at red belt (that's me in a few months).

I know some people show up for a trial class and I never see them again.  I've seen people in new doboks who haven't come back.  I talked with one of the morbidly obese women who signed up without doing a trial class.  I guess she weighed around 400 pounds.  I thought she was doing great in class.  Obviously, she couldn't do laps but she was pushing herself and trying which is all that's required.  Afterward, I made friendly conversation with her and asked her how class went.  She sounded encouraged and like she was coming back.  She didn't come back. Too bad, I know she would have benefited from the physical exercise.

You know what?  This is just my opinion but I think if people are joining a martial arts school just for physical exercise that they won't stick with it.  It's hard both mentally and physically.  Unless someone falls in love with the art, I'm not sure they'd want to put that much effort into it.  I wouldn't. I've neve been an athlete or gifted that I know of. Why all that torture if you don't love it? 

Oh, I'm sore today but not too bad.  I'm sore from pushups and I noticed my legs felt fatigued when I went into back stance.  This is a heck of a lot different than needing a crane to get out of the car or off of the couch   Gee, I'm a lot more conditioned than a year ago! (I won't get too smug - red belt is going to be hell.)


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## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

thesandman said:


> My classes (the ones I teach) CAN be phycially exhausting, but more often than not they're just a solid workout. My adult classes are generally 1.5 hours, with 30mins devoted to stretching and exercise and the remaining hour to instruction. In my school though, this can vary greatly from instructor to instructor. The woman who did most of my training, Master Susan Serota, is a huge fan of pilates. Brutal pilates. *shudder*
> 
> Whenever I attend her class I feel as though I might not be able to leave under my own power.
> 
> So you never really know for us. I've done whole classes of stretching. I've done only a minimal physical workout and spent the whole class working on understanding concepts that had very little physical activity at all. Just depends on what needs to be done for the balance of everyones training.


 
Heh...a lot of people think that Pilates is some namby-pamby thing for weak women.  I have a Pilates DVD and Pilates _hurts_.  I don't do it now because I'm focused on TSD.  I just continue with the crunches, sit-ups (yes, sit-ups), leg raises and V-ups to stay conditioned for class.

Master Seth, do you incorporate Pilates in your classes?


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## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Judo.
> 
> 'Nuff said. (said Andy while nursing bruised ribs from a week back and still hasn't missed a class).


 Yeah....Judo.  I took Judo a number of years ago.  I didn't know you could be sore in the face! I remember tucking my chin and straining against chokeholds.  The next day, various muscles in my face were sore - gee, that never happened before, lol.

I recall our warmups were loads of falling down, slapping the floor and jumping back up, over and over.

Then there was the grappling with female partners.  I think trying to throw 200+ pound guys really killed.

I don't like being thrown in TSD.  We have puzzle mats - they aren't Judo mats, and we don't have the heavy Judo uniforms.  We don't do much throwing or grappling in TSD as it's not part of the traditional curriculum.  I think we need to do more from a self-defense standpoint.  If someone gets me on the ground, I want to know what to do.


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## astrobiologist (Sep 4, 2008)

It really depends on what we're doing and who's teaching...

My father is our Master and is in great shape for his age, but he's in his early 50's so his classes usually aren't too fast-paced.  He likes to focus on techniques.  He really likes to work on weapons training.

My father's wife likes to work on kicking techniques, strectching, and balance.  She is known for hardcore classes that leave everyone feeling a little sore but happy.  The women love her classes since she really knows how to mix things up.

My classes can be a fun mix.  Sometimes I'll talk about self-defense and street fighting and we'll work on drills with partners, sometimes we'll run up and down the floor flying through techniques, sometimes we'll slow it down and focus on a few techniques, and other times we'll work through forms and applications.  I try to be as open minded as possilbe and let my classes flow.  I never want to teach the same class twice.

I've never had a "Hell Week".  I'm proud of the cardiovascular abilities of my students, but I don't want to run each class with tons of cardio or plyo work.  Like I said before, I want to keep it mixed up.  Our classes are scheduled to be 1 hour, but sometimes we'll work for a little longer if the students can stay.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 4, 2008)

I typically measure how well class went by how much my lungs are pounding and how much sweat I can wring from the t-shirt I wear under my dobok after class. It's usually more than pretty good.

My dojang in particular has the reputation, among C.S. Kim schools in the area, as the one where you go to have a really intense workout. My sa bom nim does not mess around; you work hard, or you work harder. 

We typically start off with warmups, followed by the standard techniques, followed by forms, followed by whatever else, but of course this is only a vague generalization. Whatever he feels we should be working on a particular night, we do over and over again. 

Oh, and the last 5-10 minutes of class are typically endurance exercises, just to make sure we give it at least 101%. 

Tang Soo!


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## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> I typically measure how well class went by how much my lungs are pounding and how much sweat I can wring from the t-shirt I wear under my dobok after class. It's usually more than pretty good.
> 
> My dojang in particular has the reputation, among C.S. Kim schools in the area, as the one where you go to have a really intense workout. My sa bom nim does not mess around; you work hard, or you work harder.
> 
> ...


 We often do the same at the end of our classes.  In addition to dropping down for pushups or stomach crunches during training, we spar and do laps at the end of class, or we line up and do flying sidekicks or do travelling kicking drills with a partner.  We always run back to our spots and we bounce in place while waiting for our turn.  There is no slacking, no standing around.  Hence, 2 minute sparring is nothing, not much exertion at all.

I think the idea is to keep our heart rate up most of the time.  I love it.  Sometimes, I want it to be over with though  I often feel like we stopped just in time.


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## celtic_crippler (Sep 4, 2008)

We're definately not in it for the money.....

We don't have any children in our classes...it's all adults. 

I've had students go outside to throw up after the warm up. 

My instructor's instructo'rs motto is "If you don't leave class with at least one bruise then you didn't learn anything." 

Actually....we all compare bruises as kind of "medals of honor." LOL 

There have been occasions where blood is drawn, people are knocked  unconcious, or worse....

....I'd say they're tough.


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## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> We're definately not in it for the money.....
> 
> We don't have any children in our classes...it's all adults.
> 
> ...


 
Hey, I got a bruise tonight!  It was because I was being a dummy and didn't put on my shinguards though   I blocked a kick with my shin - ouch.  It's still throbbing.

Of course we don't do Kenpo so contact is minimal except in sparring.

I haven't thrown up yet.  I try to stay hydrated throughout the day and make sure I eat enough.  Sometimes, heatstroke is a concern to me.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 5, 2008)

We have a "fun" exercise we often do at the end of class that combines a bunch of things in one.

From choon bee, we stretch out our arms in front and prepare to do squats. On the way up, though, we do a front kick. Squat down again, and come up kicking with the other leg. Rinse and repeat about ten times, then make the kicking part ahp chago yup chagi, with the same leg. Again, rinse and repeat ten times. Then add a dwi chagi to the end, with the same leg.

The other variation involves doing e dan yup chagi as we come up from the squats. Oh yeah, it keeps up your heart rate.


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## foggymorning162 (Sep 5, 2008)

I depends on the class although we don't have hell week we do focus on conditioning in some classes the idea is to teach the student how, then you do it on your own our warm ups are to prevent injury we warm up then stretch then learn. The Grand Master doesn't even do that he only teaches black belts over 17 and he feels by then you should know enough to come to his class ready he's not a personal trainer. Then again doing kicks up and down the floor for an hour can be very draining, also classes were we focus on throws can make you pretty sore the next day although usually it tricks you and waits a day to say hah here I am. We do not push a student especially in the adult class( we should all know our own limits and push ourselves to them you only get out what you put in) new students need to learn how to land properly before they can be thrown. Injuries need to be considered. I myself have psioriatic arthritis( kind of like rheumatoid) sometimes I can hang with the big boys sometimes not so much.


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