# The importance of Kata



## PhotonGuy (May 9, 2017)

This shows the importance of Kata and how it can be used to win a fight.


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## Headhunter (May 9, 2017)

Lol stupidest movie ending ever. The big tough bad guy who's been destroying this kid the whole tournament suddenly stops and looks around confused while the kid does a whole kata in the middle of the ring. 

It does show that moves used in katas can be applied in a fight but the way it was executed was terrible.


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## Flying Crane (May 9, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> This shows the importance of Kata and how it can be used to win a fight.


No, it does not.


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## CB Jones (May 9, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> This shows the importance of Kata and how it can be used to win a fight.




No.

Checkout Iain Abernethy Pratical Bunkai


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## Touch Of Death (May 9, 2017)

Kata is vital for the leg work alone, you leg day skippers.


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## Bill Mattocks (May 9, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> This shows the importance of Kata and how it can be used to win a fight.



This was a part in a movie.  It appears to show "Daniel-San" performing a kata during a sparring match, which, as others have noted, is a very bad move in general.  It may have confused and bewildered his opponent in the movie; I am sure it would not keep someone from being pummeled in an actual match.

However, as the movie shows the opponent attacking Daniel at the exact moment that a particular portion of the kata demonstrated a throw and a strike, it all fit together.

The basic point you make is sound.  Kata encodes within it many, many, tools which can be used in self-defense. One would not expect to 'do kata' during a fight or even a sparring match, but one would certainly hope to be able to call upon the appropriate tool at the appropriate time; this is exemplified as the throw and subsequent punch in the movie clip.

I love kata and consider it vital to karate.  Others do not, and that's fine.  I will keep doing kata.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 9, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The basic point you make is sound. Kata encodes within it many, many, tools which can be used in self-defense. One would not expect to 'do kata' during a fight or even a sparring match, but one would certainly hope to be able to call upon the appropriate tool at the appropriate time; this is exemplified as the throw and subsequent punch in the movie clip.
> 
> I love kata and consider it vital to karate. Others do not, and that's fine. I will keep doing kata.



Well said Bill.

Kata is a catalog of techniques, principles and strategies.  Used properly (bunkai) those techniques can be utilized effectively in a dynamic, fluid and everchanging situation, from multiple angles.  As an example, a portion of kata that demonstrates a shoulder lock allows the use of that technique regardless of whether you're standing or on the ground i.e. the joint can be manipulated from various angles and positions due to the specific range of motions of the joint.


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## JR 137 (May 9, 2017)

That's stupid even by Hollywood MA movie standards.  I'd defend the practice of kata, but why bother; the thread's a joke anyway.

For anyone who actually knows Seiunchin, is it just the way I was taught it or did he skip quite a few steps and moves in there?

And I'm not saying my Seiunchin is beautiful (I haven't done it in quite some time), but was that ugly or what?


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## TSDTexan (May 10, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> No.
> 
> Checkout Iain Abernethy Pratical Bunkai


And one minute bunkai on youtube


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## TSDTexan (May 10, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> This shows the importance of Kata and how it can be used to win a fight.


Hey at least his kata looks like his fighting.... freestyle... I am looking at you


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## Tez3 (May 10, 2017)

Photonguy, why do you do this? Time and time again we tell you that stuff you see on films is..wait for it..NOT REAL. sometimes I think you do this just to troll then I remember your other posts, please don't do this, you are so way off it's painful, read what everyone has said and take it onboard.


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## PhotonGuy (May 10, 2017)

This clip was obviously from a movie and its not something you would do in a real fight but from my observations all too often kata is overlooked and people think its useless for developing real fighting skills. In a real fight you certainly aren't going to start doing a kata but the techniques and movements you do in katas can be used in real fights. Furthermore katas help develop strength, speed, and there's also the mental aspect. When you do a kata you're supposed to imagine you're really fighting people. A football player isn't going to start lifting weights during a game out on the field but that doesn't mean football players don't use weightlifting to help them develop attributes that they use in football matches.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 10, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> This clip was obviously from a movie and its not something you would do in a real fight but from my observations all too often kata is overlooked and people think its useless for developing real fighting skills. In a real fight you certainly aren't going to start doing a kata but the techniques and movements you do in katas can be used in real fights. Furthermore katas help develop strength, speed, and there's also the mental aspect. When you do a kata you're supposed to imagine you're really fighting people. A football player isn't going to start lifting weights during a game out on the field but that doesn't mean football players don't use weightlifting to help them develop attributes that they use in football matches.



Well stated.


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## CB Jones (May 10, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> This clip was obviously from a movie and its not something you would do in a real fight but from my observations all too often kata is overlooked and people think its useless for developing real fighting skills. In a real fight you certainly aren't going to start doing a kata but the techniques and movements you do in katas can be used in real fights. Furthermore katas help develop strength, speed, and there's also the mental aspect. When you do a kata you're supposed to imagine you're really fighting people. A football player isn't going to start lifting weights during a game out on the field but that doesn't mean football players don't use weightlifting to help them develop attributes that they use in football matches.



Sure but what we are saying is you posted a very poor example.


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## PhotonGuy (May 10, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Sure but what we are saying is you posted a very poor example.



Well its not meant to be taken too seriously, while the point behind it is real the example was also meant to include the element of humor.

And Tez3 here's some advice, lighten up.


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## Tez3 (May 11, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> And Tez3 here's some advice, lighten up.



Pot kettle? I'm not in need of lightening up thank you, but you really need to read threads here before posting. This one we've been over many times, kata is for civilian unarmed self defence, nothing to do with competitions, educate yourself, someone has already advised you to look at Iain Abernethy's site, read the articles there, that will lead you on to other Bunkai experts. You will also learn how to do kata and Bunkai rather than this vague 'think about fighting someone while you are doing kata' stuff. Perhaps then you will stop posting film clips as if they were real life.


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## PhotonGuy (May 12, 2017)

Tez3 thank you for mentioning Lain Abernathy's site. I've looked it up and it looks like a really good site. Very informative and its got a forum as well, I just might join the forum.  

As for kata in competitions, in the Karate tournaments I've been to they do have the kata division where people compete with katas. At least that's how it as at the tournaments I've been too. But aside from that as you said kata is for unarmed self defense. My point exactly, kata can be very useful in helping with self defense through the techniques and sequences that you do in a kata. Unfortunately all too often people overlook kata, they say its useless or at least not all that helpful in a real fight. Im trying to dispel that myth. And when you do kata you're supposed to imagine that you're really blocking a technique thrown by an opponent, that you're really striking an opponent, ect. You're supposed to be an actor when you do a kata otherwise the kata is dead, at least that's how I was taught. 

As for lightening up, you say its painful to read some of my posts. You really shouldn't get all worked up over what somebody who you don't know says on some internet forum. If you do you've got issues. Life is too short to get worked up over such stuff.


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## JP3 (May 14, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Kata is vital for the leg work alone, you leg day skippers.


I know you were poking fun... but I used to hit the gym, lift, then go intot he closed-off aerobics room when the girls weren't in there and run through all my poomse for my cardio.  It worked for me, and got a bi of extra "workout" time in.

And, for a early 20s guy, did bring me some... um... fans. Yes, that's what I'm going to call them. Fans. Not students. Fans.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've looked it up and it looks like a really good site. Very informative and its got a forum as well, I just might join the forum



Yes you will find several of us already on there. Iain's seminars are even better, he's a lovely man, with a brilliant sense of humour and is amazing to train with.



PhotonGuy said:


> You're supposed to be an actor when you do a kata otherwise the kata is dead, at least that's how I was taught



No, just no. You have been badly taught.



PhotonGuy said:


> You really shouldn't get all worked up over what somebody who you don't know says on some internet forum. If you do you've got issues. Life is too short to get worked up over such stuff.




I'm sorry but you had me roaring with laughter at this, you really are mistaken if you think I'm worked up, you are reading what I write quite wrongly, I think you misread a lot of what people write on here which I think is the bigger part of the problem. You misunderstand what I say, you are assigning emotions that are totally inappropriate onto to my words therefore giving them a different meaning. Lecturing me is also extremely funny if somewhat patronising as well as being completely redundant. The problem is that you make 'true' statements of your opinions and expect us to agree with you but we aren't going to agree with you just to be agreeable.


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Yes you will find several of us already on there. Iain's seminars are even better, he's a lovely man, with a brilliant sense of humour and is amazing to train with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually winning competitions require and extra sumthin sumthin, on the presentation side, and it is not uncommon to practice like that all the time.


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## Tez3 (May 15, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Actually winning competitions require and extra sumthin sumthin, on the presentation side, and it is not uncommon to practice like that all the time.



Kata's weren't designed or meant for competition so practising like that doesn't make it correct, kata's are still meant for civilian unarmed defence, you can turn a lot of things into a competition but it doesn't make it *right.*


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## Flying Crane (May 15, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> Actually winning competitions require and extra sumthin sumthin, on the presentation side, and it is not uncommon to practice like that all the time.


And that is what destroys kata as a viable training tool.


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## Touch Of Death (May 15, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> And that is what destroys kata as a viable training tool.


Maybe some aspects. It is OK to turn it up with kenpo forms.


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## PhotonGuy (May 15, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> No, just no. You have been badly taught.


Alright, if I was badly taught than tell me this, how should you do a kata?


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## Touch Of Death (May 15, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright, if I was badly taught than tell me this, how should you do a kata?


Squint your eyes, like Steven Segal, moves slowly, and make guttural breathing noses, of course.


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## Touch Of Death (May 15, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> And that is what destroys kata as a viable training tool.


Maybe a lung form....


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## Tez3 (May 15, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright, if I was badly taught than tell me this, how should you do a kata?



You already have the answer, I gave it to you earlier.
Performing the Katas | Iain Abernethy


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## EMT (May 15, 2017)

I'm still standing on a position that kicking air is not as effective as sparring or a pad workout

The importance of sparring


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 15, 2017)

EMT said:


> I'm still standing on a position that kicking air is not as effective as sparring or a pad workout
> 
> The importance of sparring


You won't have training partner 24/7. What do you do when training partner is not available?


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## donald1 (May 15, 2017)

i always thought this movie was kinda funny. despite his minimal training he beat all these other guys who have far more training experience. kobra kai and these other karate schools cant hold a candle to miyagi's teaching skills!


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## JR 137 (May 15, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You won't have training partner 24/7. What do you do when training partner is not available?



Hit a bag.  Heavy bag, speed bag, double ended bag, etc.

I'm not completely agreeing with EMT, I'm just stating that solo training can be against resistance such as a bag.


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## drop bear (May 15, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You won't have training partner 24/7. What do you do when training partner is not available?



Sprawls.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 15, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Hit a bag.  Heavy bag, speed bag, double ended bag, etc.
> 
> I'm not completely agreeing with EMT, I'm just stating that solo training can be against resistance such as a bag.


I do agree that

partner drill > sparring/wrestling >  bag/equipment training > solo training

developing > testing > enhancing > polishing


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## JR 137 (May 15, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Sprawls.


Sit outs, sit out/turn ins, stand ups, penetration step, I guess you could do spinning if you have a solid/stable ottoman that's sized right.  Spin one way for 30 sec, throw a crossface, then go the other way.  Repeat until you puke.  

I hated spinning.  Actually, I despised it.  Being the bottom guy with your partner spinning on top of you is almost as bad.


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## PhotonGuy (May 15, 2017)

donald1 said:


> i always thought this movie was kinda funny. despite his minimal training he beat all these other guys who have far more training experience. kobra kai and these other karate schools cant hold a candle to miyagi's teaching skills!



That's why its called a movie.


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## CB Jones (May 15, 2017)

EMT said:


> I'm still standing on a position that kicking air is not as effective as sparring or a pad workout
> 
> The importance of sparring



Can you not do both?

Where you train they don't allow different training drills/exercises/etc...?


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## drop bear (May 15, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Kata's weren't designed or meant for competition so practising like that doesn't make it correct, kata's are still meant for civilian unarmed defence, you can turn a lot of things into a competition but it doesn't make it *right.*



And so the idea that who cares what people train so long as they are happy is thrown out the window.


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## Tez3 (May 16, 2017)

EMT said:


> I'm still standing on a position that kicking air is not as effective as sparring or a pad workout
> 
> The importance of sparring



You seem to think kata is instead of sparring, it's not, it's another tool to use for training. One does both. Kata is for training self defence techniques, sparring is sparring. Two quite different things with different purposes.




JR 137 said:


> Being the bottom guy with your partner spinning on top of you is almost as bad.



We had a guy who when we told him he needed to take out his nipple ring, laughed...........


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## Headhunter (May 16, 2017)

EMT said:


> I'm still standing on a position that kicking air is not as effective as sparring or a pad workout
> 
> The importance of sparring


So you don't shadow box then?


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## drop bear (May 16, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So you don't shadow box then?



Shadow boxing is for sport. Kata is for civilian self defense. 

Nope that doesn't make sense at all.


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## Tez3 (May 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> And so the idea that who cares what people train so long as they are happy is thrown out the window.



Not in the least. I don't care what people train, if they are happy then it's all good however this is a case of someone telling us how to do something, and they are incorrect. If they want to train kata like that, it's fine but don't tell us that is the only correct way and everyone else is wrong.
You can use a hammer to put a screw in a piece of wood, I don't care but don't tell me that I must use a hammer and not a screwdriver.


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## drop bear (May 16, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Not in the least. I don't care what people train, if they are happy then it's all good however this is a case of someone telling us how to do something, and they are incorrect. If they want to train kata like that, it's fine but don't tell us that is the only correct way and everyone else is wrong.
> You can use a hammer to put a screw in a piece of wood, I don't care but don't tell me that I must use a hammer and not a screwdriver.



Is that how you think the conversation went?


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## Tez3 (May 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Is that how you think the conversation went?



Is this how you like to stir the pot when you're bored and want a argument? Sorry, not playing it bores me when people nitpick for no reason other than hubris.


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## drop bear (May 16, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Is this how you like to stir the pot when you're bored and want a argument? Sorry, not playing it bores me when people nitpick for no reason other than hubris.



You think this conversation is going like that?


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## Steve (May 16, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Not in the least. I don't care what people train, if they are happy then it's all good however this is a case of someone telling us how to do something, and they are incorrect. If they want to train kata like that, it's fine but don't tell us that is the only correct way and everyone else is wrong.
> You can use a hammer to put a screw in a piece of wood, I don't care but don't tell me that I must use a hammer and not a screwdriver.


How bizarre this is when hammers and nails were just used a few days ago to support the opposite position.


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## drop bear (May 16, 2017)

Steve said:


> How bizarre this is when hammers and nails were just used a few days ago to support the opposite position.



All tools are created equal. It is the individual that matters.


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## PhotonGuy (May 20, 2017)

So anyway, one of my favorite katas I saw from watching Jason Frank. Now, people might not take Jason Frank seriously because of his role in Power Rangers but the fact of the matter is that he is in fact a really superb martial artist in real life and he teaches in real life and he is also supposedly a really nice guy.


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## Tez3 (May 21, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, one of my favorite katas I saw from watching Jason Frank. Now, people might not take Jason Frank seriously because of his role in Power Rangers but the fact of the matter is that he is in fact a really superb martial artist in real life and he teaches in real life and he is also supposedly a really nice guy.



What kata from which style did you see him do?


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## PhotonGuy (May 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> What kata from which style did you see him do?



Jason Frank has a background in many different styles. As for the particular kata I saw him do, here is a video.


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## Flying Crane (May 21, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Jason Frank has a background in many different styles. As for the particular kata I saw him do, here is a video.


I don't find this impressive at all.  He is obviously a good athlete, but that does not automatically make him a good martial artist.  An athlete can be effective, but it is no measurement of real knowledge or real skill.  

I see poor stances, and a failure to connect his technique to his foundation.  As a good athlete, if he learned how to do things at a higher level of quality, he could be a good martial artist.  He needs some better instruction.


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## Tez3 (May 21, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't find this impressive at all.  He is obviously a good athlete, but that does not automatically make him a good martial artist.  An athlete can be effective, but it is no measurement of real knowledge or real skill.
> 
> I see poor stances, and a failure to connect his technique to his foundation.  As a good athlete, if he learned how to do things at a higher level of quality, he could be a good martial artist.  He needs some better instruction.



Did I see him pointing his foot on the front kicks which would mean he landed the kick with his toes?


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## Paul_D (May 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Did I see him pointing his foot on the front kicks which would mean he landed the kick with his toes?


You did.  I guess Power Ranger suits protect your feet?


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## drop bear (May 21, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't find this impressive at all.  He is obviously a good athlete, but that does not automatically make him a good martial artist.  An athlete can be effective, but it is no measurement of real knowledge or real skill.
> 
> I see poor stances, and a failure to connect his technique to his foundation.  As a good athlete, if he learned how to do things at a higher level of quality, he could be a good martial artist.  He needs some better instruction.



So looking at that kata. What is his capability to engage in civilian self defence.


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## Touch Of Death (May 21, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't find this impressive at all.  He is obviously a good athlete, but that does not automatically make him a good martial artist.  An athlete can be effective, but it is no measurement of real knowledge or real skill.
> 
> I see poor stances, and a failure to connect his technique to his foundation.  As a good athlete, if he learned how to do things at a higher level of quality, he could be a good martial artist.  He needs some better instruction.


It looks made for TV. The moves are Huge.


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## Touch Of Death (May 21, 2017)

drop bear said:


> So looking at that kata. What is his capability to engage in civilian self defence.


Non-existent.


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## drop bear (May 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Did I see him pointing his foot on the front kicks which would mean he landed the kick with his toes?



When I did karate there was a snap kick to the groin done with the instep rather than a thrust kick with the ball of the foot.


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## Touch Of Death (May 21, 2017)

drop bear said:


> When I did karate there was a snap kick to the groin done with the instep rather than a thrust kick with the ball of the foot.


That is the beauty of the art. This stuff works, at any range.


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## Tez3 (May 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> When I did karate there was a snap kick to the groin done with the instep rather than a thrust kick with the ball of the foot.



That kick, Kin Geri, is done with the foot pushing up  so basically your instep is slamming the testicles upwards, your toes don't hit the target.  I've always liked that kick. The kick he was doing in the 'kata' was pointing his toes in a normal front kick so his toes hit first...painful on him, he'll break all his toes.


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## JR 137 (May 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Jason Frank has a background in many different styles. As for the particular kata I saw him do, here is a video.



I was waiting for Zach Morris and the gang to come out and join in.


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## hoshin1600 (May 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, one of my favorite katas I saw from watching Jason Frank. Now, people might not take Jason Frank seriously because of his role in Power Rangers but the fact of the matter is that he is in fact a really superb martial artist in real life and he teaches in real life and he is also supposedly a really nice guy.


ok ill bite,  what makes this one of your favorite kata.  
i know you have probably been asked and answered this before but ,,do you train in martial arts and what style?
i am curious on how this is your favorite kata.  me personally i wouldnt use something that i have only seen as a criteria for my favorite kata.  my favorite kata would be something i actually have been practicing for years, and i would choose it based on my experience of preformance, historical backround, technical difficulty and my own knowledge of application or bunkai.
 i am not trying to knock you here but unless your 10 years old and a power ranger fan, ... i mean first off the thread is based on a karate kid clip then power rangers??   your not helping your credibility or reputation.


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## PhotonGuy (May 22, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> ok ill bite,  what makes this one of your favorite kata.



Its one of my favorite katas. I like how it incorporates the basic punches and kicks and strikes that  are the primary techniques used in the art. 

Its not my only favorite kata, its one of my favorite katas. There are other katas I really like too, such as Bassai Dai.



hoshin1600 said:


> i know you have probably been asked and answered this before but ,,do you train in martial arts and what style?



I've been training in various styles for more than 25 years. My main style is Shi-to Ryu Karate.



hoshin1600 said:


> i am not trying to knock you here but unless your 10 years old and a power ranger fan, ... i mean first off the thread is based on a karate kid clip then power rangers??   your not helping your credibility or reputation.



Jason Frank is first and foremost a real martial artist. His role in Power Rangers is something he did in addition to that but more or less its something he just did on the side. Primarily he trains in and teaches martial arts. This clip isn't supposed to be so much a clip about Power Rangers rather its a clip about Jason Frank. Do you think Jason Frank's role in Power Rangers hurts his credibility and reputation? Most likely not as he is a successful and popular instructor.

And people on this forum have posted about karate kid as well so that shouldn't hurt my reputation either. Not that my reputation here really matters as the people on this forum don't know me from Adam, and vice versa.


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## PhotonGuy (May 22, 2017)

And Hoshin1600 Im not trying to knock you but do you have a problem with comprehension? You seem to think that just because I post a message about Jason Frank that my message is based on Power Rangers.


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## Paul_D (May 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> You seem to think that just because I post a message about Jason Frank that my message is based on Power Rangers.


Understanble considering the kata he was doing was The Green Power Range kata.


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## Tez3 (May 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> You seem to think that just because I post a message about Jason Frank that my message is based on Power Rangers.



You wouldn't be talking about him if he hadn't been in Power Rangers, few if any of us would have ever heard of him if it hadn't been for Power Rangers so yes your message is based on Power Rangers. No one would have filmed him doing that kata badly if he hadn't been a Power Ranger, are you getting it yet? There's nothing wrong with Hoshin's comprehension, more that you are being obtuse.


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## drop bear (May 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> You wouldn't be talking about him if he hadn't been in Power Rangers, few if any of us would have ever heard of him if it hadn't been for Power Rangers so yes your message is based on Power Rangers. No one would have filmed him doing that kata badly if he hadn't been a Power Ranger, are you getting it yet? There's nothing wrong with Hoshin's comprehension, more that you are being obtuse.



Funny.  Because Jason Frank has quite a few legitimate martial career stats that have nothing to do with the power rangers.

7th or 9th degree black belt.  Depending on where you look.  A few MMA wins.  A guiness world record holder and a black belt hall of famer.

You probably just didn't understand the kata.

Staff


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## Tez3 (May 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Funny.  Because Jason Frank has quite a few legitimate martial career stats that have nothing to do with the power rangers.
> 
> 7th or 9th degree black belt.  Depending on where you look.  A few MMA wins.  A guiness world record holder and a black belt hall of famer.
> 
> ...



Having waited up all night waiting to know if the girls from where I am are safe I am really not in the mood for your silliness nor the OPs to be honest. The OP posted a so called kata from someone who is known to most of the world as an actor a Power Ranger, the kata was poorly executed, not, it was absolute garbage, most of us have no idea who the hell he is other than a 'Power Ranger', and most of us don't actually give a stuff either. He could have used an well known martial artist, founders of style even but no, he chose a 'Power Ranger, then complains because it's mentioned, he should get over it. We don't care.
As for Guinness book of records, not a big deal if you know how they work, 'hall of famer' there's so many we are probably all in one. So colour me unimpressed.


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## hoshin1600 (May 23, 2017)

i have nothing against Jason Frank and he could be as serious as a heart attack. i have never seen the show or heard of the guy before, until now.  the issue is that the kata looks like his own concoction aimed at children to capitalize on his popularity in that demographic. it is clearly filmed with children in attendance and aimed at children.  nothing wrong with that, for what it is.  however i have to question when someone who says they are a full grown adult who has been studying for 25 years says that "THIS" kata is his favorite.  i question why.  makes me wonder if it is an attempt at trolling, or it is possible that the kata is a favorite exactly because of a percieved effectiveness in teaching children.
_Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmm.   (sorry 80's reference)_


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## jobo (May 23, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> _Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmm.   (sorry 80's reference)_


90s reference!


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## drop bear (May 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Having waited up all night waiting to know if the girls from where I am are safe I am really not in the mood for your silliness nor the OPs to be honest. The OP posted a so called kata from someone who is known to most of the world as an actor a Power Ranger, the kata was poorly executed, not, it was absolute garbage, most of us have no idea who the hell he is other than a 'Power Ranger', and most of us don't actually give a stuff either. He could have used an well known martial artist, founders of style even but no, he chose a 'Power Ranger, then complains because it's mentioned, he should get over it. We don't care.
> As for Guinness book of records, not a big deal if you know how they work, 'hall of famer' there's so many we are probably all in one. So colour me unimpressed.



He did choose a well known martial artist and a founder of a style. He complains because discarding a kata you dont understand because the martial artist is also an actor is about the sillyest reason to discount them.


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## Tez3 (May 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> He did choose a well known martial artist and a founder of a style. He complains because discarding a kata you dont understand because the martial artist is also an actor is about the sillyest reason to discount them.



Bollocks.

Nobody has 'discarded' a kata, we didn't do it to start with so can't discard it. What's to understand about it, pointing your toes in a front kick? Yeah right, you're having a giraffe mate.


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## drop bear (May 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Bollocks.
> 
> Nobody has 'discarded' a kata, we didn't do it to start with so can't discard it. What's to understand about it, pointing your toes in a front kick? Yeah right, you're having a giraffe mate.
> View attachment 20751



Not saying it isn't dumb. But karate people do it. 

FightingArts.com - The Old Okinawan Karate Toe Kick: Part 1- Introduction & Execution


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## Tez3 (May 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Not saying it isn't dumb. But karate people do it.



and all Australians walk around wearing hats with corks attached to strings on them shouting 'cooee' at each other across the street, all the men wear string vests and think foreplay is shouting 'brace yourself Sheila'.  So, generalise much?


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## drop bear (May 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> and all Australians walk around wearing hats with corks attached to strings on them shouting 'cooee' at each other across the street, all the men wear string vests and think foreplay is shouting 'brace yourself Sheila'.  So, generalise much?



I am saying the kick is a real karate kick. Just like the cork hat is a real hat. Nothing to do with generalisations. You didnt understand that a pointy toe kick is not just a mistake on the part of the practitioner.

Kicking someone pointy toe does not make you a bad martial artist. It is a technique within karate.


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## Tez3 (May 23, 2017)

So you didn't notice that in the kata he was doing it completely different from the way it's done by _old Okinawans'_? Oh well never mind. A little education is a dangerous thing.

I notice you don't deny the foreplay thing............  guess you can't be an 'amazing' fighter *and *a lover.


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## drop bear (May 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> So you didn't notice that in the kata he was doing it completely different from the way it's done by _old Okinawans'_? Oh well never mind. A little education is a dangerous thing.
> 
> I notice you don't deny the foreplay thing............  guess you can't be an 'amazing' fighter *and *a lover.



Mabye like you.  He thought the old Okinawans were doing it wrong.


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## hoshin1600 (May 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Not saying it isn't dumb. But karate people do it.
> 
> FightingArts.com - The Old Okinawan Karate Toe Kick: Part 1- Introduction & Execution



As for the okinawa toe kick,  I know and practice that kick. Uechi ryu calls it a sokusen.  What Mr. Green Ranger did was not a toe kick. The toe kick has a thrusting forward action to it. I have no problem with the kick in the kata. I believe it was meant to be an upward kick between the thighs. I learnt that kick as an "instep kick" in kempo. He called it a snap kick, which is a term I usually associate with a typical front thrust kick but whatever.

Oh and the Okinawan  toe kick is not dumb. ...I'll break your ribs with it.


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## drop bear (May 24, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> As for the okinawa toe kick,  I know and practice that kick. Uechi ryu calls it a sokusen.  What Mr. Green Ranger did was not a toe kick. The toe kick has a thrusting forward action to it. I have no problem with the kick in the kata. I believe it was meant to be an upward kick between the thighs. I learnt that kick as an "instep kick" in kempo. He called it a snap kick, which is a term I usually associate with a typical front thrust kick but whatever.
> 
> Oh and the Okinawan  toe kick is not dumb. ...I'll break your ribs with it.



Not from another country away you won't.

So both kicks are really real kicks.  Jason Frank is a really real martial artist.

I am not sure what the problem is with the green ranger kata.  

Sour grapes mabye?


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## Tez3 (May 24, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I believe it was meant to be an upward kick between the thighs. I learnt that kick as an "instep kick" in kempo.



As I said one of my favourite kicks lol, known in Wado Ryu as kingeri. There has to be an upward motions to the kick ( unless using on a very small person then an axe kick to the head is probably better )

What the Power Ranger was doing was a front kick I believe, maegeri, but with his toes instead of  keeping his foot parallel to the floor then stretch your knee and ankle to kick, toes should not be used on this kick. To do kingeri is similar but when the knee is bent the foot is also bent with toes pointing to the floor so that the upward motion is more dynamic. yes I know it's wince making to read/watch, worse to receive though.


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## RTKDCMB (May 24, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> and all Australians walk around wearing hats with corks attached to strings on them shouting 'cooee' at each other across the street, all the men wear string vests and think foreplay is shouting 'brace yourself Sheila'.  So, generalise much?


Depends on what town you are in.


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Understanble considering the kata he was doing was The Green Power Range kata.



Jason Frank is best known for his role in Power Rangers although that is not his main focus in life. His main focus is as a martial artist not as an actor but since people usually associate him with Power Rangers he combined the two and made a video where he teaches real martial arts but he takes on his role as the green ranger while he teaches.


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> however i have to question when someone who says they are a full grown adult who has been studying for 25 years says that "THIS" kata is his favorite.


Its one of my favorite, not my absolute favorite.

I like it because of its content and how it utilizes many of the basic techniques so I think its a good kata for beginners to learn and advanced students to keep practicing as well.


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2017)

drop bear said:


> He did choose a well known martial artist and a founder of a style. He complains because discarding a kata you dont understand because the martial artist is also an actor is about the sillyest reason to discount them.



I am not complaining about how people are responding to my post about Jason Frank. I am just sharing what I think is a really good kata in terms of content and if Jason makes some mistakes with the kata, such as pointing his toes when throwing the front kick as its been mentioned here, well Jason isn't perfect and neither is anybody else. If they want to discount Jason Frank and if they want to discount the kata that is their prerogative. Its my opinion that its a really good kata and people can agree or disagree as they choose.


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## Paul_D (May 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Jason Frank is best known for his role in Power Rangers although that is not his main focus in life. His main focus is as a martial artist not as an actor but since people usually associate him with Power Rangers he combined the two and made a video where he teaches real martial arts but he takes on his role as the green ranger while he teaches.


Seems like a good way to get the kids involved.


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## Tez3 (May 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I am not complaining about how people are responding to my post about Jason Frank. I am just sharing what I think is a really good kata in terms of content and if Jason makes some mistakes with the kata, such as pointing his toes when throwing the front kick as its been mentioned here, well Jason isn't perfect and neither is anybody else. If they want to discount Jason Frank and if they want to discount the kata that is their prerogative. Its my opinion that its a really good kata and people can agree or disagree as they choose.



The kata is fine, the way it's performed not so much, I've been told he's a high ranking martial artist so one should reasonably expect his performance of kata to be competent, especially if he's teaching children. I didn't see 'mistakes' I saw incompetency for his grade.


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Seems like a good way to get the kids involved.



Well children do make up a huge portion of the martial arts industry.


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## Tez3 (May 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well children do make up a huge portion of the martial arts industry.



Do they? Perhaps where you live. It's not an industry everywhere either, again perhaps where you live but not in most places. You need stop generalising.


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Do they? Perhaps where you live. It's not an industry everywhere either, again perhaps where you live but not in most places. You need stop generalising.



Where I live it is. Go to any martial arts school and you will see that their children classes are quite big, usually bigger than the adult classes. Go to any tournament and you will see that the children divisions have the most participants. Maybe it isn't like that where you're at but its like that where Im at and in much of the eastern USA.


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## Paul_D (May 24, 2017)

I don't think there's a MA club near me that would stay open with children.


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## Tez3 (May 24, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Where I live it is. Go to any martial arts school and you will see that their children classes are quite big, usually bigger than the adult classes. Go to any tournament and you will see that the children divisions have the most participants. Maybe it isn't like that where you're at but its like that where Im at and in much of the eastern USA.



You see, you make my point but you never remember that just because things are like that where you are they aren't necessarily so everywhere else. You cannot state such generalisations. It's like me saying that Americans all eat overdone steaks with tomato ketchup on, people would rightly point out that simply isn't true.


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## Buka (May 24, 2017)

I'm fascinated with this part of the thread. I, too, figured children would be common in any dojo, anywhere. Not based on any "America is all there is" attitude, but on the concept that opinion, any opinion, is based on experience, information, and the understanding of said information. I just didn't have this information...yet.

So.....what about you guys and gals from countries other than Great Britain and The United States? Are kids classes common in your dojos?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 24, 2017)

Buka said:


> I'm fascinated with this part of the thread. I, too, figured children would be common in any dojo, anywhere. Not based on any "America is all there is" attitude, but on the concept that opinion, any opinion, is based on experience, information, and the understanding of said information. I just didn't have this information...yet.
> 
> So.....what about you guys and gals from countries other than Great Britain and The United States? Are kids classes common in your dojos?


It's the availability heuristic at work. I'm guilty of it too...I always assumed if you wanted a dojo to run and make a profit, it was almost a necessity to have children's classes, wherever you were. At least where I am, even MMA gyms normally have kids grappling/striking classes of some sort to get their business.


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## Tez3 (May 24, 2017)

I think the difference could well be down to the way childcare is arranged in the USA compared to how it's done in other countries. In the UK it's regulated by the government authority that deals with education so martial arts clubs and schools don't run childcare classes which would have to be inspected and passed to Ofsted ( Ofsted - GOV.UK) standards, just martial arts classes which for children rarely last longer than an hour at a time. Martial arts instructors simply won't do it just to have children as anything other than students the same as the adults. Anyone who works or takes children for anything has to have a police check, and the Martial arts organisations have child protection policies you have to follow. Many clubs think it's too much bother just to have a kids class.
Most of our martial arts clubs and schools aren't run as businesses, most make just enough to pay utilities and buy equipment plus hopefully the instructors' petrol.


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## drop bear (May 24, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> It's the availability heuristic at work. I'm guilty of it too...I always assumed if you wanted a dojo to run and make a profit, it was almost a necessity to have children's classes, wherever you were. At least where I am, even MMA gyms normally have kids grappling/striking classes of some sort to get their business.



Heaps of kids here.


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## JR 137 (May 24, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I don't think there's a MA club near me that would stay open with children.



I don't think there's a MA club near me that would stay open without children.

Ours is probably a little more than 60/40 kids/adults.  We're about 50 students total, so we're pretty small.  The large and commercial places are far child heavier.

MMA and BJJ are typically the exceptions.  But most MMA and BJJ places have other stuff going on, like gym equipment/membership and other spa-type stuff that supplements their income.  They usually also have other styles like Muay Thai and Judo taught by rent paying instructors.

For a typical MA school in my neck of the woods, kids' tuition pays the bills.


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## Steve (May 24, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I don't think there's a MA club near me that would stay open without children.
> 
> Ours is probably a little more than 60/40 kids/adults.  We're about 50 students total, so we're pretty small.  The large and commercial places are far child heavier.
> 
> ...


Kids are very important to most BJJ schools.


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> The kata is fine, the way it's performed not so much, I've been told he's a high ranking martial artist so one should reasonably expect his performance of kata to be competent, especially if he's teaching children. I didn't see 'mistakes' I saw incompetency for his grade.



Well this video is from back in 1995 so Jason Frank didn't have the experience he has now and he didn't have the ranks he has now but he was teaching back then. I haven't seen any recent videos of him but I assume he's made much improvement.


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## PhotonGuy (May 24, 2017)

So, having lots of children in martial arts classes isn't so common depending on where you go as its been pointed out here. In different places and in different countries having children train in the martial arts might not be so commonplace. Well, Jason Frank teaches in CA and in CA it is very common to have children in the martial arts and such classes are usually quite large so it stands to reason that Jason Frank would teach lots of children and this particular video was geared towards teaching children so that's why he incorporated his role in Power Rangers into the video. We all know that Power Rangers is pretend but the stuff he was teaching was real, even if he did take on his role while teaching it.


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## Tez3 (May 25, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So, having lots of children in martial arts classes isn't so common depending on where you go as its been pointed out here. In different places and in different countries having children train in the martial arts might not be so commonplace. Well, Jason Frank teaches in CA and in CA it is very common to have children in the martial arts and such classes are usually quite large so it stands to reason that Jason Frank would teach lots of children and this particular video was geared towards teaching children so that's why he incorporated his role in Power Rangers into the video. We all know that Power Rangers is pretend but the stuff he was teaching was real, even if he did take on his role while teaching it.



Actually this isn't about Jason Frank, this is about your yet again assertions that everything in the world is so because it's that way where you are. it doesn't stand to reason that because he made a video with children he teaches children a lot, it doesn't even stand to reason that he teaches at all. The video is most likely just for publicity.

If you want to show a kata that you enjoy, it would be better to show someone doing it properly and not someone doing it for a publicity video.

I'm not actually sure why we are talking about him anyway, this thread is about kata not Power Rangers or Jason Frank, I assume you still feelings for Power Rangers.


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## PhotonGuy (May 27, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not actually sure why we are talking about him anyway, this thread is about kata not Power Rangers or Jason Frank, I assume you still feelings for Power Rangers.



I never did like Power Rangers. But I do like the real person Jason Frank.


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## Tez3 (May 28, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I never did like Power Rangers. But I do like the real person Jason Frank.



Ah, you're a personal friend of his.


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## PhotonGuy (May 28, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ah, you're a personal friend of his.


Not yet. I do know he teaches in CA at the Rising Sun Karate Academy and I do plan on going there and meeting him sometime.


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## drop bear (May 28, 2017)

So if jason frank can't do good kata. Is this an example of kata not really being that important.

He can break world records. Fight MMA, achieve a black belt hall of fame, run succesful schools but cant do kata. And he is in a system that does do kata. I that says more about kata than Jason Frank.


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## Tez3 (May 29, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Not yet. I do know he teaches in CA at the Rising Sun Karate Academy and I do plan on going there and meeting him sometime.



then wait until you do meet him before extolling his virtues, often heroes have feet of clay.


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## JP3 (May 29, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> then wait until you do meet him before extolling his virtues, often heroes have feet of clay.


I'd offer that everyone has feet of clay, as you put it.  Some do stand straight, and endeavor to reach into the heavens, however.


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## JP3 (May 29, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I don't think there's a MA club near me that would stay open without children.
> 
> Ours is probably a little more than 60/40 kids/adults.  We're about 50 students total, so we're pretty small.  The large and commercial places are far child heavier.
> 
> ...


Right. I'm sure every U.S.-based poster on here has seen signs for Karate Day Care, or Karate After School programs.... I was just talking about this subject the other day to the guy who owns the BJJ school inw hich my aikido/aikijutsu group trains. He & I were kicking around the pros & cons of his expanding the space, or taking over another space nearby which would effectively triple our mat space.  Thing is, lease rate goes up by at least 3x as well.  Where we are, I think his rate (unless the landlord raised it recently) he's at about $1500 USD/mo for our space, which really isn't that small, but the mat is the dominant part of everything, only 1 bathroom/1 changing room etc. It's not set up for a open to all situation as you'd need for the afterschool program.

Oh, Tez, for the after-school program you have to register witht he State here as well. Not for just a MA class, but if you get associated in Any way with daycare, which after school programs are, you've got to register with,a nd be inspected by, the State. You're right about that, it is a huge bother. But, for some of these guys & gals, it's their only way to earn a good/decent living, as they screwed off in school and have no other marketable skill. So, get the daycare operating/business license, put out a flyer, and get 60-100 ankle-biters in there with the parents paying ~$150/mo.... you do the math.

Don't have those kids?  At max, our club has 15 aikido people and 25 bjj people regularly, sort of, attending. Nobody gets rich training adults, not in the states... not until one is way, way up in some organizations hallowed halls.


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## Tez3 (May 29, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I'd offer that everyone has feet of clay, as you put it.  Some do stand straight, and endeavor to reach into the heavens, however.



Nah, I don't, I wear high heels.......


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## JR 137 (May 29, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Right. I'm sure every U.S.-based poster on here has seen signs for Karate Day Care, or Karate After School programs.... I was just talking about this subject the other day to the guy who owns the BJJ school inw hich my aikido/aikijutsu group trains. He & I were kicking around the pros & cons of his expanding the space, or taking over another space nearby which would effectively triple our mat space.  Thing is, lease rate goes up by at least 3x as well.  Where we are, I think his rate (unless the landlord raised it recently) he's at about $1500 USD/mo for our space, which really isn't that small, but the mat is the dominant part of everything, only 1 bathroom/1 changing room etc. It's not set up for a open to all situation as you'd need for the afterschool program.
> 
> Oh, Tez, for the after-school program you have to register witht he State here as well. Not for just a MA class, but if you get associated in Any way with daycare, which after school programs are, you've got to register with,a nd be inspected by, the State. You're right about that, it is a huge bother. But, for some of these guys & gals, it's their only way to earn a good/decent living, as they screwed off in school and have no other marketable skill. So, get the daycare operating/business license, put out a flyer, and get 60-100 ankle-biters in there with the parents paying ~$150/mo.... you do the math.
> 
> Don't have those kids?  At max, our club has 15 aikido people and 25 bjj people regularly, sort of, attending. Nobody gets rich training adults, not in the states... not until one is way, way up in some organizations hallowed halls.



It's not about after school programs nor day care programs.  It's all about numbers.  The dojo I train at doesn't do any of that, nor birthday parties or anything else along those lines.

Without kids training and paying, we're out of business.  Without kids, we've got about 20 members.  With kids, we're just over 50.  That's not a day care thing, that's a members paying membership dues thing.

The dojos that run the after school/day care thing are the minority.  I can only think of 2 places that do it; 1 is a single TKD dojang, and the other is a 6 or so TKD dojang chain.  Without kids the others are cutting their membership by 50-75%. There's an odd dojo or 2 that doesn't have kids' classes, but they're really the exception.

My dojo does separate kids' classes.  The curriculum is the same for adults and kids, except the kids' curriculum goes slower.


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## JP3 (May 30, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> It's not about after school programs nor day care programs.  It's all about numbers.  The dojo I train at doesn't do any of that, nor birthday parties or anything else along those lines.
> 
> Without kids training and paying, we're out of business.  Without kids, we've got about 20 members.  With kids, we're just over 50.  That's not a day care thing, that's a members paying membership dues thing.
> 
> ...


Where is your school located?  Here in Houston, I can honestly report it's almost cookie-cutter... karate day care is everywhere, as it is WAY cheaper than typical after-school programs at professional daycares.  They are bursting at the seams.

And... for some reason, the amounts of kids that actually take "karate" (used in the general MA way) is not high enough, typically.

Now that I think on it, I think I'd like Balrog to sound off on this. He may blow up my opinion by himself, but that's my experience on the south side of Houston.


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## JR 137 (May 30, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Where is your school located?  Here in Houston, I can honestly report it's almost cookie-cutter... karate day care is everywhere, as it is WAY cheaper than typical after-school programs at professional daycares.  They are bursting at the seams.
> 
> And... for some reason, the amounts of kids that actually take "karate" (used in the general MA way) is not high enough, typically.
> 
> Now that I think on it, I think I'd like Balrog to sound off on this. He may blow up my opinion by himself, but that's my experience on the south side of Houston.



We're about 10 minutes outside Albany, NY.

I've got no problem with the places that do the after school program.  It's a pretty good business model, actually.  They pick up the kids from school, have a room for them to do homework, one or two of them even has a playground.  They also do summer camps, activities during breaks, etc.

That's all fine and good.  So long as the quality of MA instruction is good.  The one place I stopped into to check out for my daughter, which is about 4 blocks from her school (where I teach too) has horrible instruction.  During the after school program, there's 4 or 5 classes sharing the floor.  Each class has about 10-12 students.  Those classes are run by high school aged kids, with one adult instructor circulating.  I was in there for maybe 10 minutes, and my head was pounding from the noise and chaos.  Then there were the TKD moms lined up watching their kids.  Pulling up in their Range Rovers, drinking Starbucks, wearing their Lululemon yoga clothes, and talking about how their kid is the star of everything he/she does, and the other kids are "getting better."  McDojo Madness at its finest.  And you're required to sign up for a "black belt plan" which means there's a flat rate you pay (about $5k) until your kid "earns" his/her black belt.  If it takes your kid 10 days or 10 years to "earn" black belt, the price is the same.  They say the average time is 5 years, but somehow most do it in a little over 2 years.  Funny how averages work, huh?  Then when your kid passes the black belt test, you'd think they'd get their belt, right?  Nope. The belt itself isn't included; that's $250 extra.  Read the fine print.

I'm all for people making money.  I'd certainly love to make more money, so I don't look down on others who actually do.  If the quality of instruction was worth it, I wouldn't say a word about it.  What goes on on that floor and "quality instruction" shouldn't be said in the same breath.  The other chain is pretty much the same.  Actually, the guy who runs that dojo split from the other chain.  IMO, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Sorry for the rant.  I just had to let you in on the state of TKD daycare in my area.  There are a few TKD places that don't operate this way, so I'm not condemning TKD as a whole.  But TKD in my area is very commonly referred to as "Take My Dough."


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## JP3 (May 31, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> We're about 10 minutes outside Albany, NY.
> 
> I've got no problem with the places that do the after school program.  It's a pretty good business model, actually.  They pick up the kids from school, have a room for them to do homework, one or two of them even has a playground.  They also do summer camps, activities during breaks, etc.
> 
> ...


Sounds just about right to me!

The places that have kids programs like that ... don't seem to get the message across.  But, I get how you noted the soccer moms post-Yoga class, and "My kid is the star! He's so awesome! He got seven trophies at the last tournament. I don't know how he did it, but he's really good!" Gush-gush-gush.

Ack. It is what it is.

I've wanted to ask the head instructor of the place closest to my aikido place, "Can I get fries with my kid's class?" just to see if he'd get it.


----------



## JR 137 (May 31, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Sounds just about right to me!
> 
> The places that have kids programs like that ... don't seem to get the message across.  But, I get how you noted the soccer moms post-Yoga class, and "My kid is the star! He's so awesome! He got seven trophies at the last tournament. I don't know how he did it, but he's really good!" Gush-gush-gush.
> 
> ...



Yeah, their kid is always the best at everything.  And to make whoever they're talking to feel better, they'll usually say "hey, your kid is getting a lot better."  What the hell is that supposed to mean? Lol.

I saw a great post on their Facebook page that sums everything up quite nicely... they had pictures from a tournament they hosted for their own school.  They had a few pics of the tables with all the trophies on them.  Without exaggerating, there had to be at least 3x as many trophies as competitors.  And they were pretty big trophies too.  They rented out a local sports-plex place to hold it.  TKD on field turf must've been pretty interesting.


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## Tez3 (Jun 1, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Pulling up in their Range Rovers,



I'm rather upset at these Range Rovers being kept captive, don't they know they are for off roading and country activities, are supposed to be permanently dirty and full of things like muddy wellies, Barber jackets, tack, horse blankets and lots of dog hair ( Labrador and Golden Retrievers,Springer Spaniels and Lurchers with the odd Jack Russell). It's an abuse of Range Rovers to be used to drive around towns and cities, they are meant to roam free!


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 1, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I'm rather upset at these Range Rovers being kept captive, don't they know they are for off roading and country activities, are supposed to be permanently dirty and full of things like muddy wellies, Barber jackets, tack, horse blankets and lots of dog hair ( Labrador and Golden Retrievers,Springer Spaniels and Lurchers with the odd Jack Russell). It's an abuse of Range Rovers to be used to drive around towns and cities, they are meant to roam free!


i think in the US Jeeps are for off road and Range rovers with a MSRP of about 90 thousand dollars are for the rich.


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## Tez3 (Jun 1, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> i think in the US Jeeps are for off road and Range rovers with a MSRP of about 90 thousand dollars are for the rich.



Good grief!!!


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## Steve (Jun 1, 2017)

Yeah, Range Rovers are cool, but in the States are so expensive, the only wildlife they see are tea and biscuit parties on the manicured lawns.


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## JR 137 (Jun 1, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I'm rather upset at these Range Rovers being kept captive, don't they know they are for off roading and country activities, are supposed to be permanently dirty and full of things like muddy wellies, Barber jackets, tack, horse blankets and lots of dog hair ( Labrador and Golden Retrievers,Springer Spaniels and Lurchers with the odd Jack Russell). It's an abuse of Range Rovers to be used to drive around towns and cities, they are meant to roam free!



I agree.  Around here, shamefully they're only very expensive grocery-getters.

Edit:  I think most people here either don't fully understand what is meant by "Range" or just haven't made the connection.  The Hummer suffers the same grocery-getter fate all too often as well.


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## Tez3 (Jun 1, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I agree.  Around here, shamefully they're only very expensive grocery-getters.
> 
> Edit:  I think most people here either don't fully understand what is meant by "Range" or just haven't made the connection.  The Hummer suffers the same grocery-getter fate all too often as well.



If you want the very best Land Rover don't get the Range Rover try to get your hands on a Defender. They've just stopped making them but they are the very best 4x4, do everything go everywhere vehicle you can get, so many uses with the military as well as in civvy street. Indestructible! Ours is the 'third person' in our marriage lol.


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## JR 137 (Jun 1, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> If you want the very best Land Rover don't get the Range Rover try to get your hands on a Defender. They've just stopped making them but they are the very best 4x4, do everything go everywhere vehicle you can get, so many uses with the military as well as in civvy street. Indestructible! Ours is the 'third person' in our marriage lol.


The Defender is one of the coolest vehicles of all time IMO.  They didn't sell very well here in the States, so they weren't around very long.

A friend of mine growing up had one.  We did some crazy stuff in that thing.  It was a tank.  But it was pretty unreliable, and the price of parts was outrageous.  It always needed something.  But it would always go wherever.  Kind of an oxymoron.

My father is a mechanic.  He HATES Rover.  And Jaguar.  The only British car he ever liked, and he absolutely loved it was the Mini Cooper.  Not today's BMW owned Mini, but the Mini of his youth (he's almost 70 years old).


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## Tez3 (Jun 1, 2017)

Ah the Mini was really cool ( it's the Mini of my youth too lol) Defenders are usually very reliable, the military use them here, we've never had any problem with ours, perhaps it had been badly used before.
Rover was a different company from Landrover, Rover cars were pretty lousy so it's not surprising it went out of business. E type Jags according to Enzo Ferrari were the perfect sports car, the new F type is pretty amazing though. Jaguar F-Type

Maybe, getting back on thread topic, it would take a lot of children's classes to pay for one though.


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## Hanshi (Jun 1, 2017)

The first and second movies were wonderful and dealt with the relationship between Daniel and Miyagi.  And it also dealt with introspection of the self.  Karate is an outside AND inside path we take.  It can't be fully explained in a movie seen mostly by the uninformed.  It was basically a "short" and tepid version.  That particular movie displayed was not as satisfying as the first two; let's take it for what it actually is, a movie of trust and friendship and a journey of self understanding.  Thank you.

PS.  Kata is important just as a sharpening stone is important to make the blade as sharp as possible.


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## JR 137 (Jun 1, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ah the Mini was really cool ( it's the Mini of my youth too lol) Defenders are usually very reliable, the military use them here, we've never had any problem with ours, perhaps it had been badly used before.
> Rover was a different company from Landrover, Rover cars were pretty lousy so it's not surprising it went out of business. E type Jags according to Enzo Ferrari were the perfect sports car, the new F type is pretty amazing though. Jaguar F-Type
> 
> Maybe, getting back on thread topic, it would take a lot of children's classes to pay for one though.



A little Wikipedia search confirms what I thought  - the Defender was heavily modified for the North American market.  The problems I remember from them (my father had several customers with Defenders) weren't the engine/transmission/chassis stuff; it was everything else - heater core, AC, lots of electrical problems, etc.  They'd keep running, but dash warning lights would always be on and something outside the drivetrain and chassis always needed to be fixed.  And I never understood why the North American Defenders had AC; they were all soft top here until the final year.  I guess people in Arizona and Texas need AC though.


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## Tez3 (Jun 2, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> A little Wikipedia search confirms what I thought  - the Defender was heavily modified for the North American market.  The problems I remember from them (my father had several customers with Defenders) weren't the engine/transmission/chassis stuff; it was everything else - heater core, AC, lots of electrical problems, etc.  They'd keep running, but dash warning lights would always be on and something outside the drivetrain and chassis always needed to be fixed.  And I never understood why the North American Defenders had AC; they were all soft top here until the final year.  I guess people in Arizona and Texas need AC though.




That's a great shame, they were quite simple to keep running here. I think I'm right in saying they all run on diesel not petrol, I know ours does as do most 4x4 here, petrol ones use up too much fuel and aren't as efficient. I don't know what you use in the US, I know you call it gas which I assume is petrol but I don't know if you use diesel? The big trucks do I imagine?
We had a choice of soft or hard top, short or long wheel base as well as options like ambulance, fire engine, crane, campers etc! None had a/c, cars have only had them here relatively recently anyway. Web Rover


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## Steve (Jun 2, 2017)

I had an 82 mini when I was in Germany, which was awesome.  I like the new BMW owned MINIs, too, though they are a much different breed of cat.  Still, they are peppy and don't need to slow down for many turns, which is what made the originals so fun to drive.


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