# Why so much pading?



## Manny (Feb 26, 2015)

Why tkdoings have to use su much pading or full coverage with safety gear equipment? Are we a bunch of sissies? Back in mid.80's we sparr inside dojang using nothing but maybe just the shin pads or a cup but that's all, yes we use the hogu but only in competition. Today we use the full equipment (helmet,hogu,mouth guard,elbow and forearm pads, some kind of silly gloves,shin pads and instep pads, a groing protector) even for doing the  class!!! Yes the other day I saw all the pewees using all the equipment and they were doing kicking techs and when I ask sabonim she told me, because she wanted the kids to get use to to the full equipment!!!!

What I am seeing is that we are taking care so much of the kids that  if  they don't use the equipment they don't want to sparr because of the pain of get kick or punch or what ever.

I am very angry and very worried of waht we are doing!!

We practice a martial for god sake!!

El Manny.


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## sfs982000 (Feb 26, 2015)

I think a big part of it now a days is the liability issue with someone getting hurt.  Likewise when I first started training back in the early 80's padding was minimal and contact was a lot harder in my opinion.


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## MAist25 (Feb 26, 2015)

I also think its a big liability issue and instructors dont want to see their students get hurt, because its not good for business. However, I think this is a load of crap... When I trained in Muay Thai, we trained very hard, lots of contact, with only shin guards, gloves, a cup, and mouthpiece. Every once in a while someone gets bloodied up, but thats part of martial arts. I dont understand why kickboxing, Muay Thai, boxing gyms, etc. never have a problem with this sort of training, but traditional martial arts do. This is of course a generalization, but walk into any TMA school and you're most likely going to see minimal contact, maximum protective gear.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 26, 2015)

Manny said:


> We practice a martial for god sake!!


Mi jefe, at my last testing I was going to spar a 14 year old girl, so I just put on a chest pad.  As I was going to the floor, I was told to put all the equipment on.  A few minutes later, on the floor, the master tells me we will just do very light contact, slow sparring.  I foresaw that...so why all the padding?


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 26, 2015)

Despite our rosy outlook on how we used to train in the "good old days," I think we generally train much smarter now, even if it seems "sissified." Safety gear makes sparring accessible to more people, not just "tough" guys. 

From a marketing standpoint, kids like stuff and business owners like to sell stuff.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 26, 2015)

I started in the days of bare knuckle sparring. Yes, it was more "real". There were also injuries that meant people didn't get to spar as often. There were also people who lost out on the non-tough-guy aspects of the Arts because they didn't like going home with a bloody nose.


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## granfire (Feb 26, 2015)

A lot of people have day jobs and can't afford to get hurt playing.

And we learned more about concussions in recent years. 
(ok, this is tracking this off topic, but here is a thought: It's not exactly news that with our constant quest to make playgrounds safer we are creating kids who are actually more accident prone because they never learned how to fall. You think there is a correlation between more serious accidents and lack of bounce power?0


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## MAist25 (Feb 26, 2015)

granfire said:


> A lot of people have day jobs and can't afford to get hurt playing.
> 
> And we learned more about concussions in recent years.
> (ok, this is tracking this off topic, but here is a thought: It's not exactly news that with our constant quest to make playgrounds safer we are creating kids who are actually more accident prone because they never learned how to fall. You think there is a correlation between more serious accidents and lack of bounce power?0


So how come guys who train in muay thai can train with hard contact and minimal gear and still get to work in the morning, yet people in other styles cant....


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 26, 2015)

MAist25 said:


> So how come guys who train in muay thai can train with hard contact and minimal gear and still get to work in the morning, yet people in other styles cant....


I don't think the typical Muay Thai student and the typical Taekwondo student are the same people. I suspect there are several million more people learning Taekwondo, and fighting is not a priority for a large number of them.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 27, 2015)

We used to do a lot of Stupid Stuff.  In the NHL Golaies did not wear face masks and players did not wear helmets.  IMO the purpose of the helmet is not so much to protect the head from a punch or kick as it is to protect it when it hits the floor.  
 I'd rather wear a mouthguard which is relatively cheap compared to dental work.it might save me.   
 We seem to manage OK without chest protectors.
Trained without shinpads for a while, got tired of icing my shins after sparring. .
Even pro MMA guys will do sparring with Shin pads, and Boxers spar with headgear.
"Typical Muay Thai"?    How many hard core  aged 7-15 spar hard without pading?   How many age 40+?


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## TrueJim (Feb 27, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> Safety gear makes sparring accessible to more people, not just "tough" guys.



As a short, pudgy, old guy...I agree.  In class, I'm often paired against tall, athletic, young, muscular guys (because I'm the only short, pudgy, old guy in our school).  I'm thinking of one episode in particular last year, when my opponent literally lifted me off the floor with a roundhouse kick. I went flying!  But I was able to get back up again and resume...I don't think I would have been able to do that if I hadn't been wrapped up like the Michelin Tire Man.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 27, 2015)

MAist25 said:


> So how come guys who train in muay thai can train with hard contact and minimal gear and still get to work in the morning, yet people in other styles cant....


That could suggest that Muay Thai is not as effective as those other styles.


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## sfs982000 (Feb 27, 2015)

I always felt that using less padding we not only had to spar smarter, but also it forced us to utilize more control of our technique.  I do understand with liability issues and whatnot, but a lot of times it feels like I'm sparring with a sumo suit on with all the padding.  During point sparring I've had points called on me and I never felt any contact at all.


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## Manny (Feb 27, 2015)

Which one do you like the most? the fisrt fight ot the second fight?...




Manny


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## Manny (Feb 27, 2015)

I would like to do sparring in the dojang using only protective padas in hands and shin/inestep pads, that's all that one need, and yes using some control with good force that's all. I don't like the chest/vest protector, don't like the helmet, don't like the forearm pads, I like to sparr with the minimum proptectio cause in the street you are not telling the bd guy(s) ..Wait I'm gona put my pads to fight you.

Manny


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## Tez3 (Feb 27, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> I don't think the typical Muay Thai student and the typical Taekwondo student are the same people. I suspect there are several million more people learning Taekwondo, and fighting is not a priority for a large number of them.




In the days coming up to a fight they actually spar less hard so as to minimise any chance of injuries and the cancellation of fights.


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## MAist25 (Feb 27, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> I don't think the typical Muay Thai student and the typical Taekwondo student are the same people. I suspect there are several million more people learning Taekwondo, and fighting is not a priority for a large number of them.


I completely agree with you, I was hoping someone would bring this up. This isnt a good thing, in my opinion. TKD kept lowering standards in order to make TKD more "accessible" to more people a.k.a. make more money.... The vast majority of the MT guys I trained with had no interest in fighting. However, when you compare a MT program to a TKD program, like you said, you typically see very different things. The MT guys are in good shape, tough, etc. The reason for this is because when you go to a MT school you have 2 options: Quit and go to an easier school or toughen up. They do not change the way they do things for the sake of worrying about losing students. And for this reason, MT schools are packed from wall to wall with people who look like martial artists. I have yet to see a TKD school with the same caliber of martial artist, simply due to the fact that we are attracting "different" people. We are attracting the people who are looking for something a little "easier."


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 27, 2015)

MAist25 said:


> I completely agree with you, I was hoping someone would bring this up. This isnt a good thing, in my opinion. TKD kept lowering standards in order to make TKD more "accessible" to more people a.k.a. make more money.... The vast majority of the MT guys I trained with had no interest in fighting. However, when you compare a MT program to a TKD program, like you said, you typically see very different things. The MT guys are in good shape, tough, etc. The reason for this is because when you go to a MT school you have 2 options: Quit and go to an easier school or toughen up. They do not change the way they do things for the sake of worrying about losing students. And for this reason, MT schools are packed from wall to wall with people who look like martial artists. I have yet to see a TKD school with the same caliber of martial artist, simply due to the fact that we are attracting "different" people. We are attracting the people who are looking for something a little "easier."


Everyone always brings up money, but money is not the only reason to include all kinds of people. Korea views taekwondo as a cultural product. One of the missions of Kukkiwon is to spread Korean culture. I'm guessing that taekwondo is or was the only thing many people know about Korea. 

As for the MT students looking like martial artists, I think that's great. But I'm betting that a far higher percentage of MT students "look" like martial artists before they ever step foot into a MT school than the average person walking into a dojang for the first time. 

When you say many MT students aren't interested in fighting, do you mean competitive fighting? I find it strange that gyms are packed wall to wall with people doing full contact sparring with no pads who aren't interested in fighting. 

I would agree that the average MT student is tougher than the average TKD student. I don't think TKD needs to apologize for being inclusive of everyone. There are plenty of tough guys in taekwondo, but there's room for everyone else, too.


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## TrueJim (Feb 27, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> Everyone always brings up money, but money is not the only reason to include all kinds of people.



There are so many things in your post that I agree with. Let's start with this one. Do you remember those old Calgon television commercials? The wife asks at the end of the ad, "Ancient Chinese secret huh!?" I feel like so many people (at least here in the US) - raised on old episodes of the Kung Fu television series and great old Bruce Lee movies (not to detract any from either of those two awesome things!) - want to treat martial arts like it's some _Ancient Chinese secret_. The perception seems to be that when *money* intersects with the martial art, the martial art is somehow diminished.

Look, I know there are tons of unscrupulous McDojos out there that seem to be in it _only_ for the money, but there are also plenty of "scrupulous" schools too that do happen to make a pretty good income and also happen to teach a lot of kids. I don't think there's anything wrong with either of those things. If taekwondo is a -*do* - a path, a way of life - then it seems to me that part of that way of life ought to be about being success in all aspects of your life: sport, business, family, community, etc. That's what makes it a -*do*. There's no shame in running a _prosperous_ school, as long as you're teaching good taekwondo.

So I don't think taekwondo is inclusive because that's what makes money. I think taekwondo is inclusive because (a) General Choi practically gave his entire life over to making taekwondo be popular worldwide, and (b) following that, the KTA/Kukkiwon/WTF likewise continued to strive to make taekwondo be a popular, inclusive, worldwide activity.

*Example:* para-taekwondo is now going to be included in the 2020 Paralympics. I don't think the WTF made that happen because it's a money-maker. I think the WTF made that happen because they _really really really_ want taekwondo to be inclusive. Likewise ITF promotes its own brand of special-needs taekwondo for disabled athletes. Again...inclusive. I don't think the ITF is doing that to make money. 

(Para-Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki)

That having been said, I have seen individual MMA, MT, BJJ schools with special needs programs. So being _inclusive_ isn't unique to just taekwondo...but my sense is it's a lot more commonplace in taekwondo, especially since it's promoted at the very highest levels of the art.








Jaeimseu said:


> Korea views taekwondo as a cultural product. One of the missions of Kukkiwon is to spread Korean culture. I'm guessing that taekwondo is or was the only thing many people know about Korea.



And that's another great point. From the standpoint of Korea, so much of their cultural heritage was almost wiped-out by the 1910-1945 occupation. If the occupation had gone on for a couple more decades (like, imagine if it had started in 1890), one wonders if there would be much uniquely Korean culture left anywhere in the world at all. Then on top of that, during the last half of the century, you have Communism in the north, and autocracies in the south (until 1988) -- let's face it, during the 20th Century, traditional Korean culture took a real hammering! So now Korea makes a huge effort to both renew their traditions and export those traditions to the world - and who can blame them? If my traditional culture had been almost wiped-out, I'd probably put a lot of energy into restoring it too. And I'd spread seeds of that culture as far and wide as I could, to make sure it never dies out again!

*Example:* the Kukkiwon (and I believe the Taekwondowon as well) is ultimately sponsored by the Korean government's _Ministry for Culture, Sports, and Tourism_. The word _culture_ is even in the name! 

(Welcome to the website of the Ministry of Culture Sports and Tourism of the Republic of Korea.)








Jaeimseu said:


> As for the MT students looking like martial artists, I think that's great. But I'm betting that a far higher percentage of MT students "look" like martial artists before they ever step foot into a MT school than the average person walking into a dojang for the first time.



And you make another great point!  I too am inclined to believe that people who are drawn to arts like Muay Thai are probably going to be folks who are primarily interested in the _combat_ aspects of the art, and there's nothing wrong with that! As you say, they're probably more fit to begin with. I'd wager that Muay Thai as an art probably places less emphasis on being inclusive. I don't know that Muay Thai schools or associations put a lot of effort into para-athletes, special needs athletes, older athletes, very young athletes, etc. Maybe they do, I don't know. Taekwondo though certainly does. So it stands to reason that the "average" taekwondo athlete may be _less athletic_ than the "average" Muay Thai athlete -- but that's what comes with being inclusive.




Jaeimseu said:


> I would agree that the average MT student is tougher than the average TKD student. I don't think TKD needs to apologize for being inclusive of everyone. There are plenty of tough guys in taekwondo, but there's room for everyone else, too.



At the school my son and I attend, all the instructors are Korean, and they're all Kukkiwon trained. I'm constantly struck by how much they *don't* treat taekwondo like it's Calgon's _Ancient Chinese secret_, or like any of us are likely to be a bar-fight any time soon. (Personally, 54 years and counting...still never been in a bar fight.) Our instructors treat taekwondo like something we do because it's fun, it makes us healthy, it improves our flexibility, agility, balance, coordination, endurance, etc....and oh by the way if you do it well you can hit people with it _really really really_ hard.  That mindset is definitely very *inclusive* I think, and as you say, personally...I don't think taekwondo needs to apologize for being inclusive. 

I think it's great that there's a pretty good martial art out there that really anybody can enjoy: young or old, able-bodied or otherwise, already fit or just on-the-path...that's what the *-do* part means, I think.


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

MAist25 said:


> I completely agree with you, I was hoping someone would bring this up. This isnt a good thing, in my opinion. TKD kept lowering standards in order to make TKD more "accessible" to more people a.k.a. make more money.... The vast majority of the MT guys I trained with had no interest in fighting. However, when you compare a MT program to a TKD program, like you said, you typically see very different things. The MT guys are in good shape, tough, etc. The reason for this is because when you go to a MT school you have 2 options: Quit and go to an easier school or toughen up. They do not change the way they do things for the sake of worrying about losing students. And for this reason, MT schools are packed from wall to wall with people who look like martial artists. I have yet to see a TKD school with the same caliber of martial artist, simply due to the fact that we are attracting "different" people. We are attracting the people who are looking for something a little "easier."



I have but they are fight oriented tkd.


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## Gnarlie (Feb 28, 2015)

I dunno if it makes me a wuss, but with the kind of people who come to spar with us, that padding is 100% necessary to prevent injury.

For beginners, it stops them busting their foot on my forearms or elbows, or clashing shins with me when they fail to look what I am doing before they kick. 

For more advanced visitors, it prevents them breaking my ribs. Most of the time. Some of these younger guys kick really, really hard - not something I would personally want to withstand without appropriate protective gear. 

I'm sure I am not the only person here who has trained wearing 2 or more layers of chest protector, depending on the drill it's just necessary.


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 28, 2015)

MAist25 said:


> I have yet to see a TKD school with the same caliber of martial artist, simply due to the fact that we are attracting "different" people. We are attracting the people who are looking for something a little "easier."


Maybe you're just not looking in the right places.


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## dancingalone (Feb 28, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I'm sure I am not the only person here who has trained wearing 2 or more layers of chest protector, depending on the drill it's just necessary.



Agreed, it is necessary.  Those hogu drills can get intense when two partners mutually agree to up the ante, so to speak.  It happens even in my dojang, and I hardly train Olympic aspirants.


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## WaterGal (Feb 28, 2015)

Yeah, maybe it makes me a "wuss", but I'd rather wear a bunch of padding than break my foot or arm.  Last time I sparred an adult without shin pads was 5 months ago, and I took an elbow to the shin so hard that I _still _have a bruise. Even with pads, I've had a broken toe, sprained thumb, and of course lots of bruises on my thighs/upper arms/hips; seen people get broken arms and concussions at tournaments.

And yeah, it's martial arts, that stuff happens now and then, that's okay.  Part of martial arts is learning to take a hit. But at the same time, safety is important.  If I'm risking a broken arm in every sparring match, I'm not going to want to spar 6-8 rounds multiple times a week.


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## Gnarlie (Feb 28, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, maybe it makes me a "wuss", but I'd rather wear a bunch of padding than break my foot or arm.  Last time I sparred an adult without shin pads was 5 months ago, and I took an elbow to the shin so hard that I _still _have a bruise. Even with pads, I've had a broken toe, sprained thumb, and of course lots of bruises on my thighs/upper arms/hips; seen people get broken arms and concussions at tournaments.
> 
> And yeah, it's martial arts, that stuff happens now and then, that's okay.  Part of martial arts is learning to take a hit. But at the same time, safety is important.  If I'm risking a broken arm in every sparring match, I'm not going to want to spar 6-8 rounds multiple times a week.


I agree. I train often, and it's finding a balance between being a 'tough' guy and being able to sustain a reasonable level of training in the long term.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 1, 2015)

i am not a TKD guy but i did some training with an old timer who studied in the 60"s and we did not wear anything but a cup.  however when i opened my own MA school in 1999 my insurance policy clearly stated that there was not to be any full contact and ALL protective equipment SHALL be worn or no claims would be paid.  i used to have the students run laps around the training area and once a 7 y/o tripped and almost fell. all i could think of was being sued...why where they running?  why wasnt the floor covered with rubber protective padding?  i could see all the angles a lawyer would bring up to prove my negligence and liability.  like it or not in the USA we live in a sue happy culture.  one time back in the 80's a student was slow speed sparring and got poked in the eye by accident. he was fine but threatened to sue the school.  
as i write this i am waiting to see if i am being sued by a tenant of a rental property i own because the older women in this bad winter fell down walking to her car.  while they are responsible for snow and ice removal her son called me saying "there were medical expenses that her health insurance didnt cover and "_someone HAS  to pay for it".    _its the world we live in.  if a MT school allows full contact sparring without equipment its possible their insurance rates are through the roof or they just choose to live dangerously and hope nothing happens.


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## Thousand Kicks (Mar 2, 2015)

I can only speak for my school, but when my instructor talks to potential students he always says that we are studing a martial art and contact is part of it. While we don't intend to hurt people it happens.

Putting on a hogu should not mean it's time to go full force. In partner drills where you know you're taking and giving contact, control should always be used. I will conceed that the hogu let's you make more/harder contact we shouldn't just tee off on each other unless it is mutually agreed upon.

Back to the OP. In every other striking style I have studied; when it's time to spar, it's time to pad up. I don't think putting on gear makes you a wuss, it just means you're trying to get the most out of what you're doing. Training like a wuss makes you a wuss


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 2, 2015)

Thousand Kicks said:


> Putting on a hogu should not mean it's time to go full force. In partner drills where you know you're taking and giving contact, control should always be used. I will conceed that the hogu let's you make more/harder contact we shouldn't just tee off on each other unless it is mutually agreed upon.


 
A green belt had told me that when he got his sparring equipment, he thought it was like armour, and did a full power back kick on his friend who he had convinced to put on the hogu. Seeing his friend bent in pain and over sucking wind made him realise that it only helps.....you still need to control the power of the kicks.


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## Flash Bang (Mar 2, 2015)

I remember that when I started sparring, I was squishy and had little control over my power. In that case, pads were needed to help keep me and the others from murdering each other in the ring.  Even with padding, I remember kicking someone so hard in my first match that they had to forfeit. These days, now that its been almost 4 years since that first match, I rarely use padding in my regular classes. It benefits me more to take the full contact with my classmates and Master, but I can see why a younger child or first-time fighter might need some padding. I say that use it if you want to or need to wear padding, good! I feel that padding is a little restricting and heavy. Should you need to fight for your life, you wont have time to gear up, but, without the padding its easier to move and you tend to move more quickly. Hopefully that will account for the lack of armor.


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## skribs (Mar 6, 2015)

Every once in a while I wish we didn't have to use the pads, but most of the time I'm glad for them.  You can still take quite a hit with the pads on, you're just less likely to get injured.

I think the pads actually help set the bar higher.  Anyone can swing an arm or a leg and make it hurt the other person, but to make them feel it through the pads takes more precision and power.


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## Drose427 (Mar 6, 2015)

One thing that important to note that most people whos never sparred Kukki TKD dont realize is the fact that these guys are padded like the michelin man and _still break each others ribs._ They still leave massive bruises all over each other!

The idea that TKD guys dont kick hard is a false opinion held by those who have never had the pleasure to get kicked by them


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## Balrog (Mar 10, 2015)

Manny said:


> Why tkdoings have to use su much pading or full coverage with safety gear equipment? Are we a bunch of sissies? Back in mid.80's we sparr inside dojang using nothing but maybe just the shin pads or a cup but that's all, yes we use the hogu but only in competition.


Sadly, it's a result of lawyers and insurance companies.  IMNSHO, the level of skill in sparring has decreased because of all the protection.  It has hurt us overall, not helped us.

Back in the day when it was mouthpiece and cup, you really learned to keep your guard up and protect your head.  These days, I see people sparring with their hands down by their butts.  Why?  Your butt is already padded, you don't need to protect it like you do your head.


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## Tiger-eye (Mar 16, 2015)

I train in an ITF organization (UITF to be exact). Color belts and kids wear head gear, mouth piece, hand gear, and foot gear (and cups for guys). Black belts have less requirements. The head instructor suggests no head gear for adult black belts (took some time to get used to but I sure protect my head better). Personally, in a typical class where sparring isn't the focus- my Monday and Wednesday class- I'll pop in a mouthpiece and spar. I've got enough control to not hurt my opponents while maintaining speed. On Saturday however, I go to a only sparring class. So I wear mouth piece, hand gear and foot gear. Many others wear shin pads but I'd prefer to condition mine.


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 17, 2015)

Balrog said:


> Sadly, it's a result of lawyers and insurance companies.  IMNSHO, the level of skill in sparring has decreased because of all the protection.  It has hurt us overall, not helped us.
> 
> Back in the day when it was mouthpiece and cup, you really learned to keep your guard up and protect your head.  These days, I see people sparring with their hands down by their butts.  Why?  Your butt is already padded, you don't need to protect it like you do your head.


Fair enough, but the hand position has nothing to do with padding. It's all about the rules and style of the game.


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## Rough Rider (Mar 22, 2015)

I like the way the ITF does it.  Less gear, but no full contact.  Maybe we WTF folks will see some changes with all of the "kissing and making up" that's going on these days between the organizations.  I just hope it doesn't go the other way.


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## TrueJim (Mar 22, 2015)

Rough Rider said:


> I like the way the ITF does it.  Less gear, but no full contact.



Hi Chesapeake! Greetings from NoVA.  

I originally trained (many, many years ago) in a light-contact style. Now that I'm doing the full-contact, padded version, I actually like this version better. Personally, I think it's building better muscle-memory for my kicks. I've always had really good kick precision, but my power has always been lacking. For what it's worth, I'm finding that doing both targets _and_ sparring with power is (slowly) helping me improve my power. That could just be me though.


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## The_Awesome_User (Apr 9, 2015)




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## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

MAist25 said:


> So how come guys who train in muay thai can train with hard contact and minimal gear and still get to work in the morning, yet people in other styles cant....



Exactly. Muay Thai and Kickboxing are evidently still in business and producing fine fighters. The argument from injury is weak. Needless to say, 8 out of 10 guys in your average TKD class would get slaughtered in a fight against a trained kickboxer. I wouldn't, though I would have to adjust.


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## Gnarlie (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Exactly. Muay Thai and Kickboxing are evidently still in business and producing fine fighters. The argument from injury is weak. Needless to say, 8 out of 10 guys in your average TKD class would get slaughtered in a fight against a trained kickboxer. I wouldn't, though I would have to adjust.


And 83.2% of statistics are made up on the spot.


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## TrueJim (May 1, 2015)

I think the Mutai fighters from Babylon 5 are the toughest though.


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## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> And 83.2% of statistics are made up on the spot.



8 out of 10 is being generous.


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## Drose427 (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> 8 out of 10 is being generous.



Youre a statistician now as well?


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## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Youre a statistician now as well?



I have a pair of eyes.  There are not a hole lot of tough fighters in traditional martial arts. When a national champion in ITF loses to a worthless Muay Thai fighter, simply for not being used to full contact, my hopes aren't exactly high, given that most who train aren't national champions.


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## Drose427 (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I have a pair of eyes.  There a not a hole lot of tough fighters in traditional martial arts. When a national champion in ITF loses to a worthless Muay Thai fighter, simply for not being used to full contact, my hopes aren't exactly high, given that most who train aren't national champions.



What national champion? Nothing in that video points towards that at all

It was a KO but up until that point the TKD guy held his own fairly well, you see the same thing from 2 MT guys. So its hardly representative of your point

Not to mention the guys who come from tkd/TSD and did fight MT guys successfully

Benny the Jet, Cung Le(who had no issue going to sanda from TKD), etc.

No tough guys in TMAs? Really? That right there shows a lack of knowledge,

I guess we just ignore the thousands of people every year who transition from Karate/TKD to amateur Kick boxing or MMA..... Or the hundreds of people who did it at the professional level....


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## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> What national champion? Nothing in that video points towards that at all
> 
> It was a KO but up until that point the TKD guy held his own fairly well, you see the same thing from 2 MT guys. So its hardly representative of your point
> .



The ITF fighter in the clip was a national champion in Japan, in ITF. The very first blow he recieved clearly shook him up, and it wasn't even a 100% connection. Yeah right, let's bring in all  time greats who have dabbled in kickboxing, in an argument for Point Fighters.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> 8 out of 10 is being generous.


No, it isn't, it's making up nonsense, from a position of little credibility. No change there then.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 1, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Youre a statistician now as well?


Clearly not.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I have a pair of eyes.  There are not a hole lot of tough fighters in traditional martial arts. When a national champion in ITF loses to a worthless Muay Thai fighter, simply for not being used to full contact, my hopes aren't exactly high, given that most who train aren't national champions.


Maybe you're just projecting your own lack of skill and experience onto other people...


----------



## Drose427 (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> The ITF fighter in the clip was a National champion in Japan, in ITF. The very first blow he recieved clearly shook him up, and it wasn't even a 100% connection. Yeah right, let's bring in all  time greats who have dabbled in kickboxing, in an argument for Point Fighters.



Because the all time greatest kickboxers, WERE point fighters...........and again, kick boxing is only full contact karate/TKD/TSD. Cung Le went from TKD to using that successfully in sanda and kick boxing.

Again, watch UFC/K1, you'll see glancing blows drop professional fighters because of the accuracy. That's hardly an indicator.

Heck, either this week or last week on UFC on Fox sports a guy nearly went down completely from a glancing blow to the solar plexus. Glancing blows win fights, seeing him go down from one glancing blow, and yet stay standing from better connections is a better indicator that the MT guy was dead on target with the 2 hits that knocked the ITF fighter down.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Maybe you're just projecting your own lack of skill and experience onto other people...



No, his kicking was nice. But that's what happens (more often than not) when point fighters step into full contact. My estimation of 8 out of 10 *is* me being very generous.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Because the all time greatest kickboxers, WERE point fighters...........and again, kick boxing is only full contact karate/TKD/TSD. Cung Le went from TKD to using that successfully in sanda and kick boxing.
> 
> Again, watch UFC/K1, you'll see glancing blows drop professional fighters because of the accuracy. That's hardly an indicator.
> 
> Heck, either this week or last week on UFC on Fox sports a guy nearly went down completely from a glancing blow to the solar plexus. Glancing blows win fights, seeing him go down from one glancing blow, and yet stay standing from better connections is a better indicator that the MT guy was dead on target with the 2 hits that knocked the ITF fighter down.



They *transitioned* from point fighting to kickboxing. Is that too advanced for you?


----------



## Gnarlie (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> No, his kicking was nice. But that's what happens (more often than not) when point fighters step into full contact. My estimation of 8 out of 10 *is* me being very generous.


I'm not talking about you projecting onto him. I am talking about you projecting your lack of confidence in your own skills and abilities onto others in traditional martial arts. 

Making up statistics off the top of your head and coming out with 'X would Y' statements is a sign of insecurity and a lack of maturity. 

You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts.


----------



## Drose427 (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> They *transitioned* from point fighting to kickboxing. Is that too advanced for you?



Oh honey......

No they INVENTED kick boxing by sparring under full contact rules. That's really it. They didn't transition anything, they just started sparring hard. Some people had to get used to face punches, but it isn't some completely different game here. 

If you watch clips of them sparring at point tournaments and Wako tourneys, the only difference is a few more punches.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> . Some people had to get used to face punches, but it isn't some completely different game here.



It is if you only train point fighting. If you train full contact, different story. But that's not the case.


----------



## Drose427 (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> It is if *you* only train point fighting. If you train full contact, different story. But that's not the case.



Here we have it.

Not a style problem

A people problem


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Here we have it.
> 
> Not a style problem
> 
> A people problem



If the style only offers point fighting sparring, since their tournaments are point fighting, it's a problem for the style. That would mean I have to visit Kickboxing and Muay Thai clubs in order to get full contact strikes (something I am not against doing but it does raise some practical problems).


----------



## Drose427 (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> If the style only offers point fighting sparring, since their tournaments are point fighting, it's a problem for the style. That would mean I have to visit Kickboxing and Muay Thai clubs in order to get full contact strikes (something I am not against doing but it does raise some practical problems).



Who's only training for specific tournaments and expecting to perform outside of that ruleset? 

Orrrr you could get with like minded folks in your school and train contact.....like most people do....

Most BJJ schools don't let people strike while grappling, but I've only met a handful of jiu jitieros who don't take the time to grapple with a striking opponent...

Anyone who goes to any styles school or gym and expects class time to have all the answers is living in a fantasy world.

Even MMA guys who compete branch out to train with styles and people outside their gym


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Who's only training for specific tournaments and expecting to perform outside of that ruleset?
> 
> Orrrr you could get with like minded folks in your school and train contact.....like most people do....



Most of them want to compete in these point fighting contests, and my instructor specifically asks of us to not cause injuries because of tournaments.

I doubt the majority of TKD practioners have the balls to visit MT clubs. I will do it however, in my dobok


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

This TKD guy actually won against a kickboxer, but he was either a natural talent or used to this form of fighting.


----------



## Tez3 (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I doubt the majority of TKD practioners have the balls to visit MT clubs.



That's just nasty.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 1, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> That's just nasty.



Agree. It might not be style bashing, but it is insulting. And macho BS to boot.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Agree. It might not be style bashing, but it is insulting. And macho BS to boot.



Those guys are tough. No shame in not wanting a part of that. To step in there takes *alot* of courage.


----------



## Drose427 (May 1, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Agree. It might not be style bashing, but it is insulting. And macho BS to boot.



Eh, he clearly isnt what he thinks he is...

Never met anyone whos trained with or in kickboxing who didnt know knee raise roundhouses are still very common, or in kickboxing or MT who didnt know glancing blow KO's are common at all levels..I mean thats basic boxing. If I hit the button, I dont  have to be 100% swinging out for it to take a guy down.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Those guys are tough. No shame in not wanting a part of that. To step in there takes *alot* of courage.



Whatever kid.


----------



## Drose427 (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Those guys are tough. No shame in not wanting a part of that. To step in there takes *alot* of courage.



Yeah....a lot of here do....


----------



## Gnarlie (May 1, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Eh, he clearly isnt what he thinks he is...
> 
> Never met anyone whos trained with or in kickboxing who didnt know knee raise roundhouses are still very common, or in kickboxing or MT who didnt know glancing blow KO's are common at all levels..I mean thats basic boxing. If I hit the button, I dont  have to be 100% swinging out for it to take a guy down.



You know that, I know that.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Eh, he clearly isnt what he thinks he is...
> 
> Never met anyone whos trained with or in kickboxing who didnt know knee raise roundhouses are still very common, or in kickboxing or MT who didnt know glancing blow KO's are common at all levels..I mean thats basic boxing. If I hit the button, I dont  have to be 100% swinging out for it to take a guy down.



You don't think it was glaringly obvious that the Japanese national champion in ITF was from point fighting? He was a superior fighter and still lost trivially once he got hit in the face. That's pretty sad...


----------



## Drose427 (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> You don't think it was glaringly obvious the Japanese national champion in ITF was from point fighting? He was a superior fighter and still lost trivially once he got hit in the face. That's pretty sad...




You mean the two that connected with the button?

What about the 30 he shrugged off?

If you take style out of the equation, that clip is literally a standard kickboxing match haha


----------



## Gnarlie (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> You don't think it was glaringly obvious the Japanese national champion in ITF was from point fighting? He was a superior fighter and still lost trivially once he got hit in the face. That's pretty sad...



You don't think it glaringly obvious that the events in that video say more about the spirit and training of the individuals than anything to do with style?

What's pretty sad is you making all these sweeping statements regarding contact martial arts from a position of zero experience of full contact competition, and zero interest in actually participating in full contact competition. 

Armchair punditry at its worst, and just like always, largely incorrect.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> You don't think it glaringly obvious that the events in that video say more about the spirit and training of the individuals than anything to do with style?
> 
> What's pretty sad is you making all these sweeping statements regarding contact martial arts from a position of zero experience of full contact competition, and zero interest in actually participating in full contact competition.
> 
> Armchair punditry at its worst, and just like always, largely incorrect.



Wasn't it you who said: attack the argument, not the individual? You haven't adressed the argument, only me. Frankly, this is not really interesting. What is however curious is the TKD rationale for point fighting (against injuries), which kickboxers don't have and they do fine in life.  Kickboxers don't wear all that stuff that WTFers do either.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> You mean the two that connected with the button?
> 
> What about the 30 he shrugged off?
> 
> If you take style out of the equation, that clip is literally a standard kickboxing match haha



He hit his face _once_ and the ITF guy looked like Mike Tyson just connected. A few more times and he was out.


----------



## Drose427 (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> It hit his face _once_, and he looked like Mike Tyson just connected. A few more times and he was out.



Again,

clearly you dont watch Kickboxing, Boxing, or MMA.

Those type of half connections that lead to knockouts happen all the time in any full contact striking competition.

Everyone whose boxed or kickboxed has caught a glancing blow to the button, the back of the jaw, liver, or solar plexus, and been rocked/dropped from it.

Not knowing that just shows your inexperience.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 1, 2015)

This



Gnarlie said:


> You don't think it glaringly obvious that the events in that video say more about the spirit and training of the individuals than anything to do with style?



Attacks the argument

And this



Gnarlie said:


> What's pretty sad is you making all these sweeping statements regarding contact martial arts from a position of zero experience of full contact competition, and zero interest in actually participating in full contact competition.
> 
> Armchair punditry at its worst, and just like always, largely incorrect.



Attacks the foundation upon which the argument is built. Neither of those are a direct attack on you.



Laplace_demon said:


> Wasn't it you who said: attack the argument, not the individual? You haven't adressed the argument, only me. Frankly, this is not really interesting.



Post an argument grounded in experience, proof, and rational thinking without sweeping statements, insulting generalisations and style bashing, and maybe you'll get some more meaningful responses.

You might want to take a look at your posting style.



Laplace_demon said:


> What is however curious is the TKD rationale for point fighting (against injuries), which kickboxers don't have and they do fine in life.  Kickboxers don't wear all that stuff that WTFers do either.



Participate in some full contact competition with a high level practitioner of each. It will satisfy whatever curiosity exists in your mind, without a doubt.


----------



## Drose427 (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Wasn't it you who said: attack the argument, not the individual? You haven't adressed the argument, only me. Frankly, this is not really interesting. What is however curious is the TKD rationale for point fighting (against injuries), which kickboxers don't have and they do fine in life.  Kickboxers don't wear all that stuff that WTFers do either.



Actually in their weekly training,

They do wear nearly all the same gear...only the chest protector is left out (usually, there some exceptions)


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Participate in some full contact competition with a high level practitioner of each. It will satisfy whatever curiosity exists in your mind, without a doubt.



Oh, so you are on my side of the argument after all, or what is that you are trying to imply? I am sure you know by now, that I do in fact train point fighting.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Oh, so you are on my side of the argument after all, or what is that you are trying to imply? I am sure you know by now, that I do in fact train point fighting.



I am saying go compete kickboxing with contact, and go compete contact WTF competition, both with competent high level practitioners, say in an open sanctioned by the member NGB. 

Report your findings. Until then, whatever generalisation you make is going to carry no credibility here, and is only going to communicate your own lack of confidence in your training.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I am saying go compete kickboxing with contact, and go compete contact WTF competition, both with competent high level practitioners, say in an open sanctioned by the member NGB.
> 
> Report your findings. Until then, whatever generalisation you make is going to carry no credibility here, and is only going to communicate your own lack of confidence in your training.



I don't need to do undertake an individual act to make a general point. It would be the complete opposite of a generalisation to base a conclusion on how I personally fared.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't need to do undertake an individual act to make a general point. It would be the complete opposite of a generalisation to base a conclusion on how I personally fared.



If you had the personal experience, you wouldn't make the generalisation at all.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> If you had the personal experience, you wouldn't make the generalisation at all.



I don't fear them in the technical department. It's the conditioning for hits that causes major concerns. If I took care of that in advance then no problem. But I don't think a point fighter can rely on not getting hit in sparring.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 1, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't fear them in the technical department. It's the conditioning for hits that causes major concerns. If I took care of that in advance then no problem. But I don't think a point fighter can rely on not getting hit in sparring.



What is curious to me is, although you have asserted before that WTF competition is not full contact, there have been times in my life when I have quite regularly taken full contact kicks to the face in competition. And fought on.

There are also times in my life when I have taken real life fist contact to the face. Not in a competition, in real life. And fought on.

Those two experiences were not entirely dissimilar, in that they required a bloody minded strength of will more than anything else.

I always find it amusing when people imply or assert that a kick fighter won't be able to take a punch to the face. As if the shape of the instrument making contact somehow makes a difference.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 1, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> What is curious to me is, although you have asserted before that WTF competition is not full contact, there have been times in my life when I have quite regularly taken full contact kicks to the face in competition. And fought on.
> 
> There are also times in my life when I have taken real life fist contact to the face. Not in a competition, in real life. And fought on.
> 
> ...



I don't think a persons "will" can overcome neurology and conditioning. There was nothing wrong with the ITF fighters will in that Grand Prix Final. It was a cold shower for him simply. 

I have no hesitation doing WTF sparring. That alone should tell  you something. Doesn't mean I would be very good at it, but I haven't purposely chosen ITF over WTF based on the level of contact.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I have no hesitation doing WTF sparring. That alone should tell  you something.





I said competition. Not sparring. It tells me that you don't have any real experience of it or the other forms of contact competition you seem so eager to compare it to. 

I didn't watch the video, it is moot. Again you draw style related conclusions from an isolated case. 

The thread us about the reasons why PPE is used in WTF competition. Your posts in the thread have so far been completely off topic.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 2, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> And 83.2% of statistics are made up on the spot.


50% of all people die within 3 months of their birthday.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I doubt the majority of TKD practioners have the balls to visit MT clubs. I will do it however, in my dobok


Be sure to record it and post the video on this forum.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> This TKD guy actually won against a kickboxer, *but he was either a natural talent or used to this form of fighting.*


Or he was no true Scotsman.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Needless to say, 8 out of 10 guys in your average TKD class would get slaughtered in a fight against a trained kickboxer. I wouldn't, though I would have to adjust.



A few questions on how you came to that conclusion (or how you made that assumption);

1) How trained would this kickboxer have to be?

2) How do you define your average TKD class?

3) How many of those 8 guys have sufficient training?

4) How old is your average student in your average TKD class?

5) What is the criterion for determining degree of slaughtering?

Attached is a real statistical analysis of one of our schools over a 12 year period that I personally performed for a University project with Minitab. It details such factors as joining age, length of time training and rank achieved. Stating unequivocally that a certain amount of TKD students would get slaughtered by some ambiguous kickboxers without any kind of context does not support your argument.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 2, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> A few questions on how you came to that conclusion (or how you made that assumption);
> 
> 1) How trained would this kickboxer have to be?
> 
> ...



Very interesting. Now that is how you analyse and present a statistical sample and relevant conclusions! Great piece of work.

Interesting to note that it seems roughly one in ten make 1st Kup, while around one in two hundred make first dan. Or am I reading it wrong?

It's amusing to me that in this hypothesised death match, we are pitting an 'average' TKD student against a 'trained' kickboxer. Like pitting an someone with average driving ability against a trained racing driver. A nonsense premise, leading to an accompanying meaningless conclusion.

Oh and um, still off topic.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 2, 2015)

8 out of 10 average cats would bet on 100 duck sized horses to defeat 1 horse sized duck 85% of the time. Therefore, horse sized ducks are weak.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 2, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> nteresting to note that it seems roughly one in ten make 1st Kup, while around one in two hundred make first dan. Or am I reading it wrong?


In that particular school that sounds about right. I was only able to do the analysis about that one school because I was teaching it at the time. There are other schools that have produced more black belts and have had more students and the study was done in 2010, so it was a limited study.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 2, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> In that particular school that sounds about right. I was only able to do the analysis about that one school because I was teaching it at the time. There are other schools that have produced more black belts and have had more students and the study was done in 2010, so it was a limited study.


Just observing, not concluding or extrapolating! I would love to know what that statistic looks like overall though....


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 2, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I would love to know what that statistic looks like overall though....


So would I.


----------



## Tez3 (May 2, 2015)

I know many people who train and compete 'point' scoring karate and TKD who also compete in boxing, kick boxing, rugby and Judo. Training in something that doesn't always have full contact doesn't mean people lack the intestinal fortitude for full contact. There's many reasons people do any activity and/or sport. to list them all would take longer than I have at the moment. I know many service people who train 'point's type karate and TKD and they will still be more than able to defend themselves in a self defence/bar fight type of situation as well as face a Taliban attack in Afghan.
I have also btw seen 'points' kick boxing competitions. They aren't uncommon.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 2, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> A few questions on how you came to that conclusion (or how you made that assumption);
> 
> 1) How trained would this kickboxer have to be?
> 
> ...



TKD or Karate (excluding full contact Karate) does not breed or attract as many "fighters" in the Dojo as the full contact arts. Just regular people in there who wouldn't stand a chance against Muay Thai or Kickboxers. I know since I have trained and watched TM my hole life.

I have already adressed the padding issue and concider WTFs rationale unconvincing. Martial arts is supposed to be tough.


----------



## Tez3 (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> TKD or Karate (excluding full contact Karate) does not breed or attract as many "fighters" in the Dojo as the full contact arts. Just regular people in there who wouldn't stand a chance against Muay Thai or Kickboxers. I know since I have trained and watched TM my hole life.
> 
> I have already adressed the padding issue and concider WTFs rationale unconvincing. Martial arts is supposed to be tough.




Bollocks. You have no idea what you are talking about, however I've spent the day with the Queen and we have a new Princess so ya boo sucks


----------



## TrueJim (May 2, 2015)

I think it makes about as much sense to argue about which style would beat which other style, as it makes to argue about which celebrity would beat which celebrity. (People with common sense already know that it's not about the style, it's about the athlete.)

So in a taekwondo fight, who do we think would win? Angela Mao, or Simon Rhee? *Fight!*


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 2, 2015)

Only if you think the specific training and conditioning for each style is irrelevant.


----------



## RTKDCMB (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> TKD or Karate (excluding full contact Karate) does not breed or attract as many "fighters" in the Dojo as the full contact arts. Just regular people in there who wouldn't stand a chance against Muay Thai or Kickboxers. I know since I have trained and watched TM my hole life.
> 
> I have already adressed the padding issue and concider WTFs rationale unconvincing. Martial arts is supposed to be tough.


Which neither answers any of my questions nor supports your assertions.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 2, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Which neither answers any of my questions nor supports your assertions.



8 out of 10, or worse, average joes, who happen to like the excercise and spiritual aspect of training will be demolished by a full contact fighter. Common sense informs me this.


----------



## Drose427 (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> 8 out of 10, or worse, average joes, that happen to like the excercise and spiritual aspect of training will be demolished by a full contact fighter. Common sense informs me this.



You realize many of the people in MMA/kick boxing/boxing gyms don't compete right?  

They do it for the exercise or SD.

They aren't sparring Full Contact in the same degree as the few who will compete.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 2, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> You realize many of the people in MMA/kick boxing/boxing gyms don't compete right?
> 
> They do it for the exercise or SD.
> 
> They aren't sparring Full Contact in the same degree as the few who will compete.



Yes, but still to a greater degree than TKDoins or Karatekas. And they are conditioned better. The "worst" kickboxer will of course more often than not beat the worst TKDoin. It's very logical.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Yes, but still to a greater degree than TKDoins or Karatekas. And they are conditioned better. The "worst" kickboxer will of course more often than not beat the worst TKDoin. It's very logical.


What a load of nonsense you talk. For a supposed Philosophy undergraduate, you don't do much to challenge your own opinions and supposed knowledge, do you?


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 2, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> What a load of nonsense you talk. For a supposed Philosophy undergraduate, you don't do much to challenge your own opinions and supposed knowledge, do you?



A Philosophy degree means nothing outside of Philosophy. I don't understand why people think it's indicative of anything. A Physics degree is far more impressive.

How do I challenge myself? I could start training Muay Thai and verify my assumptions. I see no other way.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> A Philosophy degree means nothing outside of Philosophy. I don't understand why people think it's indicative of anything. A Physics degree is far more impressive.



Hey, you were the one who boasted about being a gifted individual and told us you were a philosophy undergrad, so you must think it indicative of something. I don't view an undergraduate status as indicative of anything.

If you believe in Philosophy in any way, you should be questioning your supposed knowledge, not thrusting it upon others who already understand your view to be incorrect.



Laplace_demon said:


> How do I challenge myself? I could start training Muay Thai and verify my assumptions. I see no other way.



Crack on then. But the way of Philosophy is not to verify what one assumes to be true, but to attempt to disprove it. That would require you to compete in a WTF competition. Or an ITF comp. You know, one of the ones you believe to be tippy tap foot fencing BS, but are in your words 'too pretty' to risk participating in.


----------



## Tez3 (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> A Philosophy degree means nothing outside of Philosophy. I don't understand why people think it's indicative of anything




So, when you posted up that we shouldn't argue with you because you are a philosophy student ( and therefore superior to us) did you forget that it isn't indicative of anything?


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 2, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> If you believe in Philosophy in any way, you should be questioning your supposed knowledge, not thrusting it upon others who already understand your view to be incorrect.
> 
> .



The basics of any meaningful discussion is argumentation - arguing for what you believe in. That is what I am doing. My Philosophy degree is indicative of verbal comprehension. I can be rhetorically devious if I like, I can be jerk, I can be a moron. It is all completely irrelevant to my degree. My superior intelligence was present before I ever entered Philosophy.


----------



## Drose427 (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> A Philosophy degree means nothing outside of Philosophy. I don't understand why people think it's indicative of anything. A Physics degree is far more impressive.
> 
> How do I challenge myself? I could start training Muay Thai and verify my assumptions. I see no other way.



Actually it would verify nothing. 

Only that you as an individual were lacking.

Empirically speaking you'd need a much larger sample size, from each major group of TKD.


----------



## Laplace_demon (May 2, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Actually it would verify nothing.
> 
> Only that you as an individual were lacking.
> 
> Empirically speaking you'd need a much larger sample size, from each major group of TKD.



Not if you know the motivation behind individuals picking TKD or Karate over Muay Thai, for an example. I assert, quite confidently, that Thai boxers are in a different league. The weakies of those groups still trumphs the weakies of TKDs and Karate. If tougher guys gravitated towards MT training, then we are well within our rights to conclude: Tougher guys are at MT, *not* TKD. 

Quit crying over martial arts (...) and accept reality.


----------



## Gnarlie (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> The basics of any meaningful discussion is argumentation - arguing for what you believe in. That is what I am doing. My Philosophy degree is indicative of verbal comprehension. I can be rhetorically devious if I like, I can be jerk, I can be a moron. It is all completely irrelevant to my degree. My superior intelligence was present before I ever entered Philosophy.



You might want to question that piece of knowledge. The one about your superior intelligence. It really isn't coming across here. What grounds do you have for thinking yourself superior?

I read my degree thesis back a few weeks ago. Horrible to read, I wrote it when I was 22, and reading it back I sound like an perennially arrogant little douchebag. At the time, I thought I knew everything. I thought I was way more intelligent than everyone else. 

With time and age, I have come to realise that I are not daddy's special little snowflake. I'm just like everyone else, but maybe a little more thoughtful. You come to realise how little you actually know, and you look back upon the arrogance of your youth with regret. 

Either that, or you stay just the same until you die. It can go both ways.


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## Laplace_demon (May 2, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> You might want to question that piece of knowledge. The one about your superior intelligence. It really isn't coming across here. What grounds do you have for thinking yourself superior?
> 
> I read my degree thesis back a few weeks ago. Horrible to read, I wrote it when I was 22, and reading it back I sound like an perennially arrogant little douchebag. At the time, I thought I knew everything. I thought I was way more intelligent than everyone else.
> 
> ...



You age 50 is not more representative of "who you are" than when you were 30. It's just different. You could hypothetically live 150 years more and revert back to positions you held at age 30. It's arbitrary.


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## Gnarlie (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> You age 50 is not more representative of who "you are" then when you were 30. It's just different. You could hypothetically live 150 years more and revert back to positions you held at age 30. It's arbitrary.


So what grounds do you have for thinking yourself superior?


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## RTKDCMB (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> my hole life.



What's life as a hole like, sounds very empty to me. 



Laplace_demon said:


> 8 out of 10, or worse, average joes, who happen to like the excercise and spiritual aspect of training will be demolished by a full contact fighter. Common sense informs me this.



And again what is your average Joe? In the statistical analysis I provided the average Joe was about 13 years old and had trained for a total of 14 months.



Laplace_demon said:


> A Physics degree is far more impressive.



I have one of those.



Laplace_demon said:


> A Philosophy degree means nothing outside of Philosophy.



Usually one earns a degree in order to use it either in a job or in real life so if it means nothing outside of your course when why learn it at all?



Laplace_demon said:


> I can be rhetorically devious if I like, I can be jerk, I can be a moron.



You're off to a good start so far. 



Laplace_demon said:


> My superior intelligence was present before I ever entered Philosophy.



Superior to what?


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## Drose427 (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Not if you know the motivation behind individuals picking TKD or Karate over Muay Thai, for an example. I assert, quite confidently, that Thai boxers are in a different league. The weakies of those groups still trumphs the weakies of TKDs and Karate. If tougher guys gravitated towards MT training, then we are well within our rights to conclude: Tougher guys are at MT, *not* TKD.
> 
> Quit crying over martial arts (...) and accept reality.



This right here shows you have diversified who you've worked with much.

Train in more boxing gyms, you'll see MT and kick boxing guys who aren't taking kicks as well as Kukki guys. Just like MT kicks aren't some magically devastating kick, I know kukki guys who kick harder than some lf the competing kickboxers and MMA guys I work with

And vice versa

The other day I was training with a gentlemen who won a local MMA event, he caught a single back pivot to the gut and dropped.

Style v style is always spouted off by people who have stepped outside of their training very little and think they know it all.

Theres a reason the majority of MMA guys who actually fight having nothing but respect for other styles and very rarely spout of generalizations.

We see this in the UFC all the time, fighters delve in other arts and/or take input from other arts.

When you actually start training, and training outside of class (not just walking through whatever your "champion" dad or sahbum nim have you do in class) you realize style makes very little difference.


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## Laplace_demon (May 2, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> What's life as a hole like, sounds very empty to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are a Physics graduate, yet incorrectly agreed with me that speed increases mass.


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## RTKDCMB (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Not if you know the motivation behind individuals picking TKD or Karate over Muay Thai, for an example.



My motivation (as well as the motivations for many of our students) for picking TKD was for self defense.



Laplace_demon said:


> I assert, quite confidently, that Thai boxers are in a different league.



And that is all it is, an assertion.



Laplace_demon said:


> The weakies of those groups still trumphs the weakies of TKDs and Karate. If tougher guys gravitated towards MT training, then we are well within our rights to conclude: Tougher guys are at MT, *not* TKD.



Really? We are not a competition style and we don't spar full contact but there plenty of tough people that train with us. A few years ago one young lady was going for her Junior black belt and broke her ankle landing off a flying side kick. She still went on to spar the black belts and passed. Another student going for his checked himself out of the hospital the night before his Junior black belt grading and did his grading with a fractured hip and the flu. The toughness of the students is not the primary measure of a martial art.


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## Laplace_demon (May 2, 2015)

Speed Increases Mass 

*"No, mass is invariant. Read section 1 at the link. Geocities has shut down"*


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## Laplace_demon (May 2, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> My motivation (as well as the motivations for many of our students) for picking TKD was for self defense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can have fractures in skateboarding too. Doesn't mean A: Skateboarders are tough or B. Skateboarding is tough. Get real.


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## Tez3 (May 2, 2015)

Ok, I'm going to post a picture of our Queen today at Richmond Castle, North Yorkshire. We watched as she presented a new Guidon to the Queen's Royal Lancers, motto 'Death or Glory'. I'll tell you why.
There should have been a young man on parade with his fellow soldiers standing proudly while the Queen took the salute. He wasn't, he died  when an IED went off in Afghanistan. The last time I saw those soldiers with their lances and brass helmets was at his funeral. His nickname was 'Steptoe' and he was 20 years old, he was an outstanding soldier and my martial arts student. He was quiet, funny, he didn't boast, worked hard and was liked by everyone. He pulled his weight, backed his mates and died far far too young.
What he didn't do...  didn't waste his life trying to convince people he was a genius or superior,  he didn't boast about his dad ( he could have done believe me, he served in the same regiment in places close to you saving lives), he didn't BS, he wasn't full of excuses, he didn't think he knew it all, he had an 'empty cup' when he came to martial arts. In short La-place, he was everything you aren't, he may have only been 20 but he was a man, a mensch. My life and many others is better for knowing him. so, in closing I'd just like to say STFU and just train. *RIP Trooper Andrew Howarth. Death or Glory.*


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## RTKDCMB (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> You are a Physics graduate, yet incorrectly agreed with me that speed increases mass.



I said it does at relativistic velocities speed increases mass to a measurable effect. At normal velocities the increase is imperceptible. 

m = m0/((1 - v2/c2))1/2

Mass Increase


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## RTKDCMB (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> You can have fractures in skateboarding too. Doesn't mean A: Skateboarders are tough



Actually skateboarders are tough (and a little stupid) because with the amount of injuries they get (some of them serious) they still keep getting back on.


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## RTKDCMB (May 2, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Speed Increases Mass
> 
> *"No, mass is invariant. Read section 1 at the link. Geocities has shut down"*



The mass being invariant refers to the rest mass (m0 in the equation I gave you), which is different to the inertial mass. If you are going to argue physics with me you should probably learn some first.

Mass - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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