# Kettebells for strength



## Glenn67

I'm 52 and want to put kettlebells for strength into my workout.I train 2 to 3 times a week in BJJ.Do any older guys here train at the same time with kettlebells?I'm looking for like a 2 day a week routine to add on without wearing myself out and still making strength gains.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I'm roughly your age and I work with kettle bells 2 to 3 times a week.  They are great for strength development!


----------



## Glenn67

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I'm roughly your age and I work with kettle bells 2 to 3 times a week.  They are great for strength development!


I jump rope now 5 3 minute rounds with 1 minute rest.I think I'm going to have to pick kettlebells or jump rope.Doing them both together leaves me pretty tired.I noticed in training many guys are stronger and I need a little extra strength.I just started a couple of weeks ago so maybe I have'nt given myself enough time to get used to it..


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Glenn67 said:


> I'm 52 and want to put kettlebells for strength into my workout.I train 2 to 3 times a week in BJJ.Do any older guys here train at the same time with kettlebells?I'm looking for like a 2 day a week routine to add on without wearing myself out and still making strength gains.


I'm 3 years younger. Kettlebells are my preferred strength training now. The exercises using them recruit more support/stability muscles, which helps prevent more of the injuries I'm prone to these days.

I've found a couple of routines I like. My current favorite is from an app I have on my iPad. If you want, I'll dig it up and list the exercises in it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Glenn67 said:


> I jump rope now 5 3 minute rounds with 1 minute rest.I think I'm going to have to pick kettlebells or jump rope.Doing them both together leaves me pretty tired.I noticed in training many guys are stronger and I need a little extra strength.I just started a couple of weeks ago so maybe I have'nt given myself enough time to get used to it..


Those are two different kinds of exercise. The rope is mostly cardio-pulmonary training. The kettlebells are mostly strength training (if you use them to that end). I don't think that needs to be an either-or proposition. Maybe step back the rope a little (3 rounds?) to leave more stamina for the strength portion. When the 3 rounds gets easier, add the next back in, and continue. Or just reduce the rounds' duration.


----------



## Glenn67

gpseymour said:


> I'm 3 years younger. Kettlebells are my preferred strength training now. The exercises using them recruit more support/stability muscles, which helps prevent more of the injuries I'm prone to these days.
> 
> I've found a couple of routines I like. My current favorite is from an app I have on my iPad. If you want, I'll dig it up and list the exercises in it.


Yes I would like to see the list of things that work for you.there are so many different exercises.thanks


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Glenn67 said:


> Yes I would like to see the list of things that work for you.there are so many different exercises.thanks


Two different sets I use. 

This one's more basic/general:

KB swing
Clean
Clean and press
Goblet squat
High pull
Thrust squat
Figure-8 to hold
Body pass
Hand to hand cleans
KB Lunge pass

This one's more strength-oriented:

2-hand Anyhow
Alternate floor press
Alternating clean and press
Alternating standing rows
Contracted rows
Crucifix press
Double clean and press
Double cleans
Deadlifts
High pulls
KB pushups
Squats (usually goblet squats)
Stepping lunge
Swings


----------



## Glenn67

Thanks and how many sets are done for the workout?


----------



## Danny T

64 here and do kettlebell training 4-5 times a week as a part of my daily training.
Besides the exercises already posted I strongly recommend Turkish Get Ups. Great core strengthening for your BJJ.


----------



## Glenn67

Turkish get ups are hard but I see it as one of the best for it.how long is your workout and how many sets do you do? Trying to get a starting guideline.


----------



## Danny T

Glenn67 said:


> Turkish get ups are hard but I see it as one of the best for it.how long is your workout and how many sets do you do? Trying to get a starting guideline.


I don't do just a kettlebell workout. Strength training is always incorporated in my daily training. I'm using a 52lb Kettlebell for almost all my exercises. I usually do 3 reps per side for 3-5 sets. Go Slow. Learn to do the technique properly with little to no weight first.


----------



## JR 137

Danny T said:


> 64 here and do kettlebell training 4-5 times a week as a part of my daily training.
> Besides the exercises already posted I strongly recommend Turkish Get Ups. Great core strengthening for your BJJ.





Glenn67 said:


> Turkish get ups are hard but I see it as one of the best for it.how long is your workout and how many sets do you do? Trying to get a starting guideline.


I love Get-Ups. One of the most practical exercises there is. I use them as a warmup and cool down for every strength session. I typically do a setsof 3, then 2, then 1 (each side). 

I’ve got an adjustable kettlebell, but I don’t use it for much more than get-ups. I’ve just gotten back into strength training after too long a lay-off. I’ve got to utilize it more.


----------



## skyeisonfire

Kettle bells are great tools!  It's been a while but I will probably buy 1 or 2 for home use. Basic kettle bell swings  was enough for me.  Definitely built up my cardio/stamina in general.


----------



## jobo

Glenn67 said:


> I'm 52 and want to put kettlebells for strength into my workout.I train 2 to 3 times a week in BJJ.Do any older guys here train at the same time with kettlebells?I'm looking for like a 2 day a week routine to add on without wearing myself out and still making strength gains.


you tube has lots and lots of kettle bell work outs, pick one that suits your goals, as with any exercise you need to pick if your doing low weight , high reps, low reps high weight, some where in between or all three.

in essence,  there great for swinging about, so lweighted full body movement, so just swing one around in every plane of movement you can think of, but you can use them for any weight training where you can use dumb bells, or nearly any body weight exercise that you want to add more resistance to, hold one whilst do squats or lunges, tie one to you belt when doing dips or pull ups, or put one in a rucksack when doing press up or hill sprints. your only limited by you imagination.


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> I'm 3 years younger. Kettlebells are my preferred strength training now. The exercises using them recruit more support/stability muscles, which helps prevent more of the injuries I'm prone to these days.
> 
> I've found a couple of routines I like. My current favorite is from an app I have on my iPad. If you want, I'll dig it up and list the exercises in it.


I would like to see the list as well.


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> I would like to see the list as well.


go up nine posts


----------



## Glenn67

jobo said:


> you tube has lots and lots of kettle bell work outs, pick one that suits your goals, as with any exercise you need to pick if your doing low weight , high reps, low reps high weight, some where in between or all three.
> 
> in essence,  there great for swinging about, so lweighted full body movement, so just swing one around in every plane of movement you can think of, but you can use them for any weight training where you can use dumb bells, or nearly any body weight exercise that you want to add more resistance to, hold one whilst do squats or lunges, tie one to you belt when doing dips or pull ups, or put one in a rucksack when doing press up or hill sprints. your only limited by you imagination.


I just seen the 5 best for BJJ and think I will start with that and build on it.I still jump rope because it took a while to learn it and I don't want to put it down right yet.I just want to do it all and have to not overtrain myself,thanks


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Glenn67 said:


> Thanks and how many sets are done for the workout?


That depends the approach you want to take. I do them as intervals, so usually just as many as I can do in 30 or 60 seconds (different weights, depending upon the interval, obviously), with 10-20 second rest periods between. If I want to do them as sets, I shorten the interval and repeat the sequence (rather than doing 3 sets of one exercise, it's 3 trips through the sequence of exercises).


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> Two different sets I use.
> 
> This one's more basic/general:
> 
> KB swing
> Clean
> Clean and press
> Goblet squat
> High pull
> Thrust squat
> Figure-8 to hold
> Body pass
> Hand to hand cleans
> KB Lunge pass
> 
> This one's more strength-oriented:
> 
> 2-hand Anyhow
> Alternate floor press
> Alternating clean and press
> Alternating standing rows
> Contracted rows
> Crucifix press
> Double clean and press
> Double cleans
> Deadlifts
> High pulls
> KB pushups
> Squats (usually goblet squats)
> Stepping lunge
> Swings



I saved your list. I know this may be asking a lot but can you give a brief explanation of the exercises? Many of the names I am unfamiliar with.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Danny T said:


> 64 here and do kettlebell training 4-5 times a week as a part of my daily training.
> Besides the exercises already posted I strongly recommend Turkish Get Ups. Great core strengthening for your BJJ.


I wholeheartedly agree. I don't have it in my standard workout, but we do some form of Turkish get-up (either with kettlebell, or modified with medicine ball or some other handy weight) as part of class warm-ups. Good exercise for the shoulder stabilizers, too.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> I saved your list. I know this may be asking a lot but can you give a brief explanation of the exercises? Many of the names I am unfamiliar with.


If you have an iOS device I can do better than that. They are in two apps available on iOS (don't think there's an Android version, or I'd have it, too). If you'e not an iOS user, I'll try to find YouTube videos for them - there's literally no way I'd be able to accurately describe (or even demonstrate!) a 2-hand Anyhow. It's just bizarre.


----------



## jobo

Glenn67 said:


> I just seen the 5 best for BJJ and think I will start with that and build on it.I still jump rope because it took a while to learn it and I don't want to put it down right yet.I just want to do it all and have to not overtrain myself,thanks


it's not either or, jump rope is a fantastic exercise, if you can actually do it, I do it with an imaginary rope, as it seems easier


----------



## Glenn67

gpseymour said:


> That depends the approach you want to take. I do them as intervals, so usually just as many as I can do in 30 or 60 seconds (different weights, depending upon the interval, obviously), with 10-20 second rest periods between. If I want to do them as sets, I shorten the interval and repeat the sequence (rather than doing 3 sets of one exercise, it's 3 trips through the sequence of exercises).


I used to do a sequence of 8 exercises and rested between circuits. for a minute.I will do it like you said.I want to build strength and BJJ and jump rope will build the cardio.Thanks.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> it's not either or, jump rope is a fantastic exercise, if you can actually do it, I do it with an imaginary rope, as it seems easier


You know, maybe that's what I need to do. I rather suck at jumping an actual rope.


----------



## Danny T

Glenn67 said:


> I just seen the 5 best for BJJ and think I will start with that and build on it.I still jump rope because it took a while to learn it and I don't want to put it down right yet.I just want to do it all and have to not overtrain myself,thanks


Skipping rope is a great exercise. Not only for cardio but calf's, ankles, it helps build quickness on the feet, explosive footwork, focus, and timing. It's a great warmup, excellent active rest between rounds, and active cool down after the heavy workout.

If you are pretending to use a rope then it won't help your focus or timing.


----------



## Glenn67

gpseymour said:


> You know, maybe that's what I need to do. I rather suck at jumping an actual rope.


It took me 2 months to stop hitting my feet.Stick with it


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

One of the biggest issues with kettlebells is wrist injuries.  Make sure you are wearing some kind of weight lifting glove with heavy wrist support!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Brian R. VanCise said:


> One of the biggest issues with kettlebells is wrist injuries.  Make sure you are wearing some kind of weight lifting glove with heavy wrist support!


Is that from the impact when "dropping" the kettlebell to the back of the hand (as on a clean and press)? Or is it from improper use of the wrist - bad positioning - during certain exercises?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

gpseymour said:


> Is that from the impact when "dropping" the kettlebell to the back of the hand (as on a clean and press)? Or is it from improper use of the wrist - bad positioning - during certain exercises?




Usually it is just from the repetitive movement of the kettlebell into the clean and jerk.  Not the impact but the movement of the object.  Many people's wrist suffer during that movement especially when you start using heavier weights.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Glenn67 said:


> Do any older guys here train at the same time with kettlebells?


The stone lock is similar to the KB. The difference is it's much easier to hold it to do a punch. This will make your weight training fully integrated with your MA training.

This stone lock is light weight.






This stone lock is heavy weight.






I cannot believe this stone lock costs $2,180.

"Ishi Sashi" 19th Century Chinese Martial Arts Weight For Sale at 1stdibs


----------



## jobo

Brian R. VanCise said:


> One of the biggest issues with kettlebells is wrist injuries.  Make sure you are wearing some kind of weight lifting glove with heavy wrist support!


 surely starting off at a?? sensible weight and building your wrist strength is a better idea than binding your wrists up. as that way you won't?? strength en your wrist at all


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> surely starting off at a?? sensible weight and building your wrist strength is a better idea than binding your wrists up. as that way you won't?? strength en your wrist at all


It probably depends somewhat on the relative strength of those muscles versus the larger arm muscles. My wrists are probably more durable than my shoulders, so I wonder if I need worry about this. For someone who hasn't had the constant stressing/strengthening of wrist support muscles, but has done better than me at building and maintaining shoulder muscles, it might be harder to select a "sensible weight" for the wrists, since that might be lighter than what's sensible for the primary muscles for the exercise.


----------



## jobo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The stone lock is similar to the KB. The difference is it's much easier to hold it to do a punch. This will make your weight training fully integrated with your MA training.
> 
> This stone lock is light weight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This stone lock is heavy weight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot believe this stone lock costs $2,180.
> 
> "Ishi Sashi" 19th Century Chinese Martial Arts Weight For Sale at 1stdibs


I could make you one of those, with my black and Decker


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> It probably depends somewhat on the relative strength of those muscles versus the larger arm muscles. My wrists are probably more durable than my shoulders, so I wonder if I need worry about this. For someone who hasn't had the constant stressing/strengthening of wrist support muscles, but has done better than me at building and maintaining shoulder muscles, it might be harder to select a "sensible weight" for the wrists, since that might be lighter than what's sensible for the primary muscles for the exercise.


hmm, every thing you do with those shoulder muscles is going through the wrist. it's really pointless increasing their strength if your wrist are a weak link.

back when I started my fitness journey. I bought a 15 lb bell, swung it once and put my back out, so I got a 10 lbs one swung it 5 times and put my back out. so a five pond ladies one it was. that way I sorted my weak link before moving on to more challenging weights /

with wrists just holding it end on for a period will help no end. if it's heavy, don't hold it as long as if it's light.


----------



## Glenn67

Brian R. VanCise said:


> One of the biggest issues with kettlebells is wrist injuries.  Make sure you are wearing some kind of weight lifting glove with heavy wrist support!


I haven't had a problem with that yet but I will keep it in mind.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> I could make you one of those, with my black and Decker


If you can get him to pay you $2,100 for it, you've got a nice side hustle going.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> hmm, every thing you do with those shoulder muscles is going through the wrist. it's really pointless increasing their strength if your wrist are a weak link.
> 
> back when I started my fitness journey. I bought a 15 lb bell, swung it once and put my back out, so I got a 10 lbs one swung it 5 times and put my back out. so a five pond ladies one it was. that way I sorted my weak link before moving on to more challenging weights /
> 
> with wrists just holding it end on for a period will help no end. if it's heavy, don't hold it as long as if it's light.


Oh, I agree. My point was just that someone with strong enough shoulders might injure themselves because they don't recognize they're over-stressing the wrist.


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> If you have an iOS device I can do better than that. They are in two apps available on iOS (don't think there's an Android version, or I'd have it, too). If you'e not an iOS user, I'll try to find YouTube videos for them - there's literally no way I'd be able to accurately describe (or even demonstrate!) a 2-hand Anyhow. It's just bizarre.


Thanks, I have an iPhone. If you have the app names I will search for them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> Thanks, I have an iPhone. If you have the app names I will search for them.


The two apps are "Beginners Kettlebell Workout" and "Kettlebell Strength Workout", both by Samuel Pont. The beginner's version is the shorter and easier one, of course - you can complete the whole circuit in about 10-15 minutes, and hit everything. I sometimes shorten it a bit to get a quick extra workout when I've been too lazy, otherwise, or just need to start the day with a bit of activity.


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> The two apps are "Beginners Kettlebell Workout" and "Kettlebell Strength Workout", both by Samuel Pont. The beginner's version is the shorter and easier one, of course - you can complete the whole circuit in about 10-15 minutes, and hit everything. I sometimes shorten it a bit to get a quick extra workout when I've been too lazy, otherwise, or just need to start the day with a bit of activity.


Got them. Thank you


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> Oh, I agree. My point was just that someone with strong enough shoulders might injure themselves because they don't recognize they're over-stressing the wrist.


its 7nlikely that any one has achieved  strong shoulders with out also increasing their wrist strength in proportion. it's more than possible that a begginer has weak shoulder and even weaker wrist. but that's then an issue with any exercise not just kettle bells and is part of the ongoing issue of people selecting weights/ resistance that are to big for them. I see any number of people at the gym with wrist and knees strapped up to lift a big weight and 5hink, it's to heavy put it down and stop showing off before you injure yourself


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> You know, maybe that's what I need to do. I rather suck at jumping an actual rope.


I used to jump rope a lot. It is one of the best coordination and conditioning tools out there IMHO. But even on our padded mats it kills my knees now. Anyone out there have the same problem and have any ideas around it?


----------



## dvcochran

jobo said:


> I could make you one of those, with my black and Decker


Hmm, you are going to make a shaped rock with wood working tools. Make one and post a picture.


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> Hmm, you are going to make a shaped rock with wood tools. Make one and post a picture.


a black and decker is an electric tool made of steel plastic and copper, I'm unaware that mine hqe any wooden components. perhaps wooden drill are an American thing ? but I though they went out when the stone age arrived


----------



## Glenn67

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Usually it is just from the repetitive movement of the kettlebell into the clean and jerk.  Not the impact but the movement of the object.  Many people's wrist suffer during that movement especially when you start using heavier weights.


I twist my wrist doing single overhead swings to avoid smashing it into my wrist.


----------



## dvcochran

Danny T said:


> Skipping rope is a great exercise. Not only for cardio but calf's, ankles, it helps build quickness on the feet, explosive footwork, focus, and timing. It's a great warmup, excellent active rest between rounds, and active cool down after the heavy workout.
> 
> If you are pretending to use a rope then it won't help your focus or timing.


Danny, correct if I am wrong but I believe I read that you have knee replacements. Do you still jump rope? I would love to start back but it really aggravates my knees. Have you figured a way around this?


----------



## dvcochran

jobo said:


> a black and decker is an electric tool made of steel plastic and copper, I'm unaware that mine hqe any wooden components. perhaps wooden drill are an American thing ? but I though they went out when the stone age arrived


Dude, I said they are made for woodworking, not what they are made of. Sometimes your comments just amaze me. That is not a good thing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> its 7nlikely that any one has achieved  strong shoulders with out also increasing their wrist strength in proportion. it's more than possible that a begginer has weak shoulder and even weaker wrist. but that's then an issue with any exercise not just kettle bells and is part of the ongoing issue of people selecting weights/ resistance that are to big for them. I see any number of people at the gym with wrist and knees strapped up to lift a big weight and 5hink, it's to heavy put it down and stop showing off before you injure yourself


I'm not sure how it would happen, either. It's much easier to strengthen the wrists without the shoulder. But then again, I see a lot of folks lifting weights using the lifting straps more often than they should. That probably could lead to the shoulders developing more than the wrists. Using isolation machines (Nautilus and such) could probably do it, too - the shoulder exercises sometimes don't include the wrists, at all.


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> Dude, I said they are made for woodworking, not what they are made of. Sometimes your comments just amaze me. That is not a good thing.


no you said " wood tools" not wood working tools. and my black and decker has a masonry function in built. the last one I had that didn't was from the 1960s


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure how it would happen, either. It's much easier to strengthen the wrists without the shoulder. But then again, I see a lot of folks lifting weights using the lifting straps more often than they should. That probably could lead to the shoulders developing more than the wrists. Using isolation machines (Nautilus and such) could probably do it, too - the shoulder exercises sometimes don't include the wrists, at all.


there not much you can do to compensate for bad practise and inflated ego


----------



## Dirty Dog

jobo said:


> there not much you can do to compensate for bad practise and inflated ego



The irony of you saying this is absolutely priceless.


----------



## jobo

Dirty Dog said:


> The irony of you saying this is absolutely priceless.


and yet the irony of you pointing out the irony goes over your head


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

dvcochran said:


> I used to jump rope a lot. It is one of the best coordination and conditioning tools out there IMHO.


If you train wrestling, jumping role may not be a good idea. 

When you 

- jump rope, you try to raise your gravity center.
- wrestle, you try to sink your gravity center.

The more that you jump rope, the easier that your opponent can take you down.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you train wrestling, jumping role may not be a good idea.
> 
> When you
> 
> - jump rope, you try to raise your gravity center.
> - wrestle, you try to sink your gravity center.
> 
> The more that you jump rope, the easier that your opponent can take you down.


I can see your point, but is that actually true? If two wrestlers both train concepts like rooting, keeping weight underside, etc. (however those are expressed), and one jumps rope while the other does not, will there really be a functional difference?


----------



## dvcochran

jobo said:


> no you said " wood tools" not wood working tools. and my black and decker has a masonry function in built. the last one I had that didn't was from the 1960s





jobo said:


> no you said " wood tools" not wood working tools. and my black and decker has a masonry function in built. the last one I had that didn't was from the 1960s


You thinking of tools literally made out of wood when you referenced Black & Decker makes me wonder what century are from.


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> You thinking of tools literally made out of wood when you referenced Black & Decker makes me wonder what century are from.


you say wood tools, it's not my fault if you dont know the differance between 5hose and wood working tools. I have some wood tools, that's tool made out of wood, they were quite common in the middle of the last century


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> I can see your point, but is that actually true? If two wrestlers both train concepts like rooting, keeping weight underside, etc. (however those are expressed), and one jumps rope while the other does not, will there really be a functional difference?


It's true. If you like to jump, you are not very good of sinking. Your throw resistance will be weak. In CMA, the term is called "float".

If you can make your body to act like a pile of wet mud, it will be very difficult for your opponent to throw you.

My Shuai Chiao teacher told me not to run for the same reason. I did my running any way (against his teaching).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's true. If you like to jump, you are not very good of sinking. Your throw resistance will be weak. In CMA, the term is called "float".
> 
> If you can make your body to act like a pile of wet mud, it will be very difficult for your opponent to throw you.
> 
> My Shuai Chiao teacher told me not to run for the same reason. I did my running any way (against his teaching).


I'm pretty good at jumping (okay, less so as my knees get worse, but still). And I'm pretty good at sinking into resistance. They're two different things. Just like squatting doesn't seem to affect my ability to run, nor bicep curls my ability to do push-ups.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> you say wood tools, it's not my fault if you dont know the differance between 5hose and wood working tools. I have some wood tools, that's tool made out of wood, they were quite common in the middle of the last century


You are, again, trying to require people to use the exact definition and usage you have in mind. That's not how communication works. Ever.


----------



## Deleted member 39746

I have been meaning to try out some kettle bell exercises, need to get enough room to store a bell of a weight i can easier lift though.

Kind of went off from using it, one because its heavy and two i didnt want to throw my back out.


The program i was looking it is mainly for cardio though, and my intent was to go to it to learn technique for kettle bells to do them at home.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> You are, again, trying to require people to use the exact definition and usage you have in mind. That's not how communication works. Ever.


no, 8m not requiring him to do anything, but in the same vein I'm not required to accept his definition either,


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> no, 8m not requiring him to do anything, but in the same vein I'm not required to accept his definition either,


Then maybe re-read your own post, and figure out how telling him he's wrong about the usage of the word isn't requiring that he use the meaning you prefer. What you're doing is _at best_ just that. Instead, you could just try understanding the posts, because that's the half of communication you (quite willingly) discard just to be difficult.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> Then maybe re-read your own post, and figure out how telling him he's wrong about the usage of the word isn't requiring that he use the meaning you prefer. What you're doing is _at best_ just that. Instead, you could just try understanding the posts, because that's the half of communication you (quite willingly) discard just to be difficult.


well he is wrong, but I'm not requiring him to do anything about it, he can continue being wrong if he wishes.

and I didn't say he was wrong, I did suggest he was incorrect,


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> I'm pretty good at jumping (okay, less so as my knees get worse, but still). And I'm pretty good at sinking into resistance. They're two different things. Just like squatting doesn't seem to affect my ability to run, nor bicep curls my ability to do push-ups.


Agree. It is like saying doing pull-ups make it harder to set down. From my wrestling days I would have to say a strong core is to your advantage for sinking. That and good technique of course. 
Jump rope is a very good, very inexpensive exercise. I am still hoping to hear from the "bum knee" folks if they still jump rope or avoid it completely.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> Agree. It is like saying doing pull-ups make it harder to set down. From my wrestling days I would have to say a strong core is to your advantage for sinking. That and good technique of course.
> Jump rope is a very good, very inexpensive exercise. I am still hoping to hear from the "bum knee" folks if they still jump rope or avoid it completely.


I avoid it for reasons that have nothing to do with my knees. I just suck bad enough I don't get good exercise out of it.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

jobo said:


> surely starting off at a?? sensible weight and building your wrist strength is a better idea than binding your wrists up. as that way you won't?? strength en your wrist at all



Of course starting with a sensible weight is the normal and smart thing to do as well as the recommended way by everyone.  Yet, kettlebell movement as you move up in weight due to the nature of the movement of a round weight will place some stress on your wrist even though you are of course strengthening it.  Naturally, a person who is interested in keeping their wrists from injuries will utilize some form of wrist support to protect that joint.  As you move up in weight this is even more important.  Mind you I lift with perfect form and am not talking about the kettle bell hitting the wrist but instead the movement from the kettlebell affecting the wrist joint.


----------



## Danny T

dvcochran said:


> Danny, correct if I am wrong but I believe I read that you have knee replacements. Do you still jump rope? I would love to start back but it really aggravates my knees. Have you figured a way around this?


I still skip. No problems.


----------



## Danny T

Dirty Dog said:


> The irony of you saying this is absolutely priceless.


And then...


jobo said:


> and yet the irony of you pointing out the irony goes over your head


LOL...
The impish & childish; "I know you are but what am I?"


----------



## Buka

Danny T said:


> I still skip. No problems.



Danny, you never cease to inspire me. Right when I need it, too. Coming back from injury and illness can be a beach. You give me a mental life jacket. Mahalo, brother.


----------



## Danny T

Buka said:


> Danny, you never cease to inspire me. Right when I need it, too. Coming back from injury and illness can be a beach. You give me a mental life jacket. Mahalo, brother.


Thank you Buka...Nice to know I have been an inspiration to someone. LOL.
I just showed this to my wife. Sweet thing just chucked and said "He doesn't really know you does he? That or he's just as foolish as you. Most men your age stopped doing all that years ago."

As tough as it has been growing in age along with the wear and tear I'm not willing to quit. My internal spirit and vital energy is to important to my fulfillment of life.


----------



## Buka

Danny T said:


> Thank you Buka...Nice to know I have been an inspiration to someone. LOL.
> I just showed this to my wife. Sweet thing just chucked and said "He doesn't really know you does he? That or he's just as foolish as you. Most men your age stopped doing all that years ago."
> 
> As tough as it has been growing in age along with the wear and tear I'm not willing to quit. My internal spirit and vital energy is to important to my fulfillment of life.



Quit, heck, we're just warming up.

Women. They always were smarter than us.


----------



## Danny T

Buka said:


> Quit, heck, we're just warming up.


This. 



Buka said:


> Women. They always were smarter than us.


Ouch...but mine is for the most part. And when she isn't; she still is.


----------



## punisher73

gpseymour said:


> Is that from the impact when "dropping" the kettlebell to the back of the hand (as on a clean and press)? Or is it from improper use of the wrist - bad positioning - during certain exercises?



I know Brian gave an answer about wrist injuries in general.  But, just wanted to add that with proper form the kb should never "bang" the wrist or forearm or have any significant impact.  If it is impacting the wrist as it rotates around, your form is off and will lead to other injuries over time.  I have even seen people highlighting their bad form and talk about the benefits of the "forearm conditioning" that they get from the kb exercises.  That's not the purpose of the exercise and isn't even a byproduct of proper form and training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

punisher73 said:


> I know Brian gave an answer about wrist injuries in general.  But, just wanted to add that with proper form the kb should never "bang" the wrist or forearm or have any significant impact.  If it is impacting the wrist as it rotates around, your form is off and will lead to other injuries over time.  I have even seen people highlighting their bad form and talk about the benefits of the "forearm conditioning" that they get from the kb exercises.  That's not the purpose of the exercise and isn't even a byproduct of proper form and training.


Agreed. That's why I was asking. I've seen some folks flailing about with them in ways that probably did produce actual injury from those impacts.


----------



## jobo

punisher73 said:


> I know Brian gave an answer about wrist injuries in general.  But, just wanted to add that with proper form the kb should never "bang" the wrist or forearm or have any significant impact.  If it is impacting the wrist as it rotates around, your form is off and will lead to other injuries over time.  I have even seen people highlighting their bad form and talk about the benefits of the "forearm conditioning" that they get from the kb exercises.  That's not the purpose of the exercise and isn't even a byproduct of proper form and training.


well no, kb are close to a whole body exercise, that there beauty. I really doubt any one in moderate condition who hasn't gone silly with the weight is going to cause themselves serious injury to the wrists, I mean really what will they break,  minor injury will just result in what ever you injured becoming stronger, which is the main purpose of swinging them about in the first place


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> well no, kb are close to a whole body exercise, that there beauty. I really doubt any one in moderate condition who hasn't gone silly with the weight is going to cause themselves serious injury to the wrists, I mean really what will they break,  minor injury will just result in what ever you injured becoming stronger, which is the main purpose of swinging them about in the first place


That's not the reality of joints. Minor repetitive injuries do not strengthen them. They will strengthen individual tissues via scarring, but that doesn't improve the joint.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> That's not the reality of joints. Minor repetitive injuries do not strengthen them. They will strengthen individual tissues via scarring, but that doesn't improve the joint.


are you saying it causes bone damage or soft tissue injuries, I think it will take significant overload using silly weights over a significant time to cause any notable bone damage.

that's the cue for you to magic up a study showing kettle bells cause bone damage,  as exposed to stren5hihg them, which is the normal outcome for percussive exercises ? the idea  is to resist the wrist whip at the end, not to bounce your wrist to the extent of its rom, that will strengthen  the soft tissue and the bone, with iut wrechpking the wrist joint


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> are you saying it causes bone damage or soft tissue injuries, I think it will take significant overload using silly weights over a significant time to cause any notable bone damage.
> 
> that's the cue for you to magic up a study showing kettle bells cause bone damage,  as exposed to stren5hihg them, which is the normal outcome for percussive exercises ? the idea  is to resist the wrist whip at the end, not to bounce your wrist to the extent of its rom, that will strengthen  the soft tissue and the bone, with iut wrechpking the wrist joint


I'd guess soft tissue injuries. Remember that wrist joints can have problems from no real weight at all, if stressed the right way - carpal tunnel syndrome. 

Maybe next time, don't strawman right as you're asking what someone means.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> I'd guess soft tissue injuries. Remember that wrist joints can have problems from no real weight at all, if stressed the right way - carpal tunnel syndrome.
> 
> Maybe next time, don't strawman right as you're asking what someone means.


carpal tunnel syndrome, is the carpal ligiments wearing in to their eer tunnel, the carpal ligaments work the fingers not the wrist, which is why typists suffer from it.it just happens to be in the wrist were it happens, it isn't caused by movement of the wrist

RSIs in general are years in the making, so hours a day, week after week for years, nobody got tennis elbow on 12mins hitting a ball 3 times a week


----------



## dvcochran

Buka said:


> Quit, heck, we're just warming up.
> 
> Women. They always were smarter than us.


I just could not bring myself to click "agree" on that one. Maybe if you said "they Think they are always smarter". That said, most the time they are.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> carpal tunnel syndrome, is the carpal ligiments wearing in to their eer tunnel, the carpal ligaments work the fingers not the wrist, which is why typists suffer from it.it just happens to be in the wrist were it happens, it isn't caused by movement of the wrist
> 
> RSIs in general are years in the making, so hours a day, week after week for years, nobody got tennis elbow on 12mins hitting a ball 3 times a week


Okay, so you're actually aware of RSI. So what, exactly is it you don't understand about the idea of them happening from a much heavier weight, like a KB?

It's pretty clear you're just looking to pick a fight. You didn't even take up the issue with the guy who posted the warning. You're ridiculous sometimes, mate.


----------



## punisher73

jobo said:


> well no, kb are close to a whole body exercise, that there beauty. I really doubt any one in moderate condition who hasn't gone silly with the weight is going to cause themselves serious injury to the wrists, I mean really what will they break,  minor injury will just result in what ever you injured becoming stronger, which is the main purpose of swinging them about in the first place



Your post puts in parameters that aren't realistic to justify your incorrect position.  You stated that anyone who hasn't "gone silly with the weight" isn't going to cause themselves serious injury to the wrist.  That's a load of bullock!  That's like saying it doesn't matter if you round your back on deadlifts and use bad form, you aren't going to cause yourself serious harm because the weight isn't a lot.  You still need correct form, because as you do move up in weight it becomes an issue.  So, your stance is again "use bad form as long as you don't use a lot of weight and you won't hurt yourself" is an issue because I have personally seen it many times in the weight room if someone's posture and form are not corrected they hurt themselves because they DO keep adding weight to their bad form and not knowing any better until the injury occurs.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> Okay, so you're actually aware of RSI. So what, exactly is it you don't understand about the idea of them happening from a much heavier weight, like a KB?
> 
> It's pretty clear you're just looking to pick a fight. You didn't even take up the issue with the guy who posted the warning. You're ridiculous sometimes, mate.





punisher73 said:


> Your post puts in parameters that aren't realistic to justify your incorrect position.  You stated that anyone who hasn't "gone silly with the weight" isn't going to cause themselves serious injury to the wrist.  That's a load of bullock!  That's like saying it doesn't matter if you round your back on deadlifts and use bad form, you aren't going to cause yourself serious harm because the weight isn't a lot.  You still need correct form, because as you do move up in weight it becomes an issue.  So, your stance is again "use bad form as long as you don't use a lot of weight and you won't hurt yourself" is an issue because I have personally seen it many times in the weight room if someone's posture and form are not corrected they hurt themselves because they DO keep adding weight to their bad form and not knowing any better until the injury occurs.



well 1 your mis representing  my point, my point is that it's not bad form, 2 you can injure your self with any form if the weight is to high.

so do good form, ie work the wrist and dont put to much weight on to soon. and you will be just fine

saying people are prone to do to much weight is academic people are prone to cross the road with out looking what's coming, you can't really build a world to reduce risk caused by peoples own negligence

and as an aside, if correct form means taking the lower back out of the equation, 5hen any exercise to strengthen the lower back is automatically bad form. which is why so many weight lifter have weak backs. to much good form.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> well 1 your mis representing  my point, my point is that it's not bad form, 2 you can injure your self with any form if the weight is to high.
> 
> so do good form, ie work the wrist and dont put to much weight on to soon. and you will be just fine
> 
> saying people are prone to do to much weight is academic people are prone to cross the road with out looking what's coming, you can't really build a world to reduce risk caused by peoples own negligence
> 
> and as an aside, if correct form means taking the lower back out of the equation, 5hen any exercise to strengthen the lower back is automatically bad form. which is why so many weight lifter have weak backs. to much good form.


Okay, so what were you arguing about all along, then?


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> Okay, so what were you arguing about all along, then?


I'm arguing the same point with punisher I was all along, I'm disagreeing with you. as you posted in contradict m e


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> I'm arguing the same point with punisher I was all along, I'm disagreeing with you. as you posted in contradict m e


Here's what I disagreed with:



jobo said:


> well no, kb are close to a whole body exercise, that there beauty. I really doubt any one in moderate condition who hasn't gone silly with the weight is going to cause themselves serious injury to the wrists, I mean really what will they break, minor injury will just result in what ever you injured becoming stronger, which is the main purpose of swinging them about in the first place



I disagreed with your statement that injury to the joint would strengthen the tissue, and that reasonable weight would prevent significant injury. I'm not sure anything you've said since changes either of those statements, nor my disagreement with them.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> Here's what I disagreed with:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagreed with your statement that injury to the joint would strengthen the tissue, and that reasonable weight would prevent significant injury. I'm not sure anything you've said since changes either of those statements, nor my disagreement with them.


well it's ok to disagreeit even if as 7ssual you are wrong, but the arguments are started by you disagreeing, if you dont want to debate a point dont disagree, see how easy it 8s ?


----------



## dvcochran

jobo said:


> well it's ok to disagreeit even if as 7ssual you are wrong, but the arguments are started by you disagreeing, if you dont want to debate a point dont disagree, see how easy it 8s ?


Have you ever thought of taking a grammar class, a typing class, and reading what you just typed before hitting "Post Reply"? Any one of the three would be a marked improvement.


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> Have you ever thought of taking a grammar class, a typing class, and reading what you just typed before hitting "Post Reply"? Any one of the three would be a marked improvement.


I'm multi  tasking, there is not just you lot who are wrong on the internet you know, I've got the flat earthers to contend with as well


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> well it's ok to disagreeit even if as 7ssual you are wrong, but the arguments are started by you disagreeing, if you dont want to debate a point dont disagree, see how easy it 8s ?


So, which part of what I've said am I "wrong" about, then? The part where bad form can cause injury without unreasonable weight? The part where joint injuries don't strengthen joints? I'm curious to see.

And, no, arguments aren't started by my disagreement. They're started by your argumentative approach. I've disagreed with many people and managed to have a discussion rather than an argument. You just seem to like arguing when your statements are questioned or challenged. And I'm okay with that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> Have you ever thought of taking a grammar class, a typing class, and reading what you just typed before hitting "Post Reply"? Any one of the three would be a marked improvement.


Jobo's devices don't seem to know what his fingers want. At least we're not having to read the ridiculous autocorrects his Fire was producing. I'd rather read his typos.


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> Jobo's devices don't seem to know what his fingers want. At least we're not having to read the ridiculous autocorrects his Fire was producing. I'd rather read his typos.


I first wondered if he did everything from a smart phone or screen keyboard. Then I realized how often he over-reaches and hit the numbers.


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> I first wondered if he did everything from a smart phone or screen keyboard. Then I realized how often he over-reaches and hit the numbers.


big fingers, small key board


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> So, which part of what I've said am I "wrong" about, then? The part where bad form can cause injury without unreasonable weight? The part where joint injuries don't strengthen joints? I'm curious to see.
> 
> And, no, arguments aren't started by my disagreement. They're started by your argumentative approach. I've disagreed with many people and managed to have a discussion rather than an argument. You just seem to like arguing when your statements are questioned or challenged. And I'm okay with that.


this is your strawman, I'm not saying bad form is good for kettle bells, I'm saying it's not bad form at all, your wrong about all the issues I outlined above that you have failed to address, repeating them for you to fail to address them again seem a bit pointless?

on the wider point, yes bad form can be good if your sensible with the weights, good form is removing certain joints/ muscle from the exercise, that allows you to lift heavy with out injuring yourself. which is obviously a big plus,  but it also has the effect of not strenthing the muscles that work those joints, leaving you weak in any circumstances were you cant use good form. so for instance, pulling a 200 lb guy out , who is clinging on the edge of a ravine will not allow you to use your dead luft good form, your going to have to load up the lower back to achieve it, an area that is weak because you have always adopted good form in you dead lift

I given literally  thousands of kinetic lifting classes, and the issue people constantly throw at me, is ok, how do I lift something with good technique  that's down a hole or very restricted space, and I've no answer for that apart from dont  which is ok as long as you dont have to


----------



## dvcochran

jobo said:


> this is your strawman, I'm not saying bad form is good for kettle bells, I'm saying it's not bad form at all, your wrong about all the issues I outlined above that you have failed to address, repeating them for you to fail to address them again seem a bit pointless?
> 
> on the wider point, yes bad form can be good if your sensible with the weights, good form is removing certain joints/ muscle from the exercise, that allows you to lift heavy with out injuring yourself. which is obviously a big plus,  but it also has the effect of not strenthing the muscles that work those joints, leaving you weak in any circumstances were you cant use good form. so for instance, pulling a 200 lb guy out , who is clinging on the edge of a ravine will not allow you to use your dead luft good form, your going to have to load up the lower back to achieve it, an area that is weak because you have always adopted good form in you dead lift
> 
> I given literally  thousands of kinetic lifting classes, and the issue people constantly throw at me, is ok, how do I lift something with good technique  that's down a hole or very restricted space, and I've no answer for that apart from dont  which is ok as long as you dont have to


You are leaving out mindset when doing a particular exercise. Each is intended to work a certain muscle or group. There are exercises that will strengthen every muscle in the body. A person has to know and understand them to be able to work them safely. I like the gymnast vs. body builder analogy. Body builders are very good at isolating specific muscles. Gymnast are very good at overall muscle conditioning. I will take the latter every time.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> this is your strawman, I'm not saying bad form is good for kettle bells, I'm saying it's not bad form at all, your wrong about all the issues I outlined above that you have failed to address, repeating them for you to fail to address them again seem a bit pointless?


Where did I imply you said bad form was good?



> on the wider point, yes bad form can be good if your sensible with the weights, good form is removing certain joints/ muscle from the exercise, that allows you to lift heavy with out injuring yourself. which is obviously a big plus,  but it also has the effect of not strenthing the muscles that work those joints, leaving you weak in any circumstances were you cant use good form. so for instance, pulling a 200 lb guy out , who is clinging on the edge of a ravine will not allow you to use your dead luft good form, your going to have to load up the lower back to achieve it, an area that is weak because you have always adopted good form in you dead lift
> 
> I given literally  thousands of kinetic lifting classes, and the issue people constantly throw at me, is ok, how do I lift something with good technique  that's down a hole or very restricted space, and I've no answer for that apart from dont  which is ok as long as you dont have to


Here, I'll just disagree on the definition of "bad form". Bad form is only that form which makes an exercise either less useful to its purpose, or injurious. What you're talking about I'd just call a different use of the exercise. If folks are asking how to lift with good form, they're asking how to NOT injure themselves.


----------



## 23rdwave

Try StrongFirst's "Simple and Sinister" kettlebell training plan. Two exercices: swings and get-ups.

Every Joint. Every Day. The Elegance of Simple and Sinister | StrongFirst


----------



## punisher73

jobo said:


> this is your strawman, I'm not saying bad form is good for kettle bells, I'm saying it's not bad form at all, your wrong about all the issues I outlined above that you have failed to address, repeating them for you to fail to address them again seem a bit pointless?
> 
> on the wider point, yes bad form can be good if your sensible with the weights, good form is removing certain joints/ muscle from the exercise, that allows you to lift heavy with out injuring yourself. which is obviously a big plus,  but it also has the effect of not strenthing the muscles that work those joints, leaving you weak in any circumstances were you cant use good form. so for instance, pulling a 200 lb guy out , who is clinging on the edge of a ravine will not allow you to use your dead luft good form, your going to have to load up the lower back to achieve it, an area that is weak because you have always adopted good form in you dead lift
> 
> I given literally  thousands of kinetic lifting classes, and the issue people constantly throw at me, is ok, how do I lift something with good technique  that's down a hole or very restricted space, and I've no answer for that apart from dont  which is ok as long as you dont have to



WHAT?  This is so wrong on so many levels. Lifts like the squat and deadlift will train the WHOLE BODY when done correctly to stabilize all of the joints etc. for the lift. I'm not sure where you get a weak lower back from using proper form in a deadlift.  There are variations of the deadlift that will strengthen the lower back while still using good form.  You are arguing non-sense to not have to admit that you are wrong.  

It scares me that you claim to have trained 1000's of people on crap.


----------



## jobo

punisher73 said:


> WHAT?  This is so wrong on so many levels. Lifts like the squat and deadlift will train the WHOLE BODY when done correctly to stabilize all of the joints etc. for the lift. I'm not sure where you get a weak lower back from using proper form in a deadlift.  There are variations of the deadlift that will strengthen the lower back while still using good form.  You are arguing non-sense to not have to admit that you are wrong.
> 
> It scares me that you claim to have trained 1000's of people on crap.


well clearly the squat and dead lift will not train the WHOLE BODY, do you really need me to list the muscles they dont train ? there wouldn't be any other exercises if that were true

and I dont 5hink you need to be rude just because someone rightly disagrees with you, that just childish


----------



## punisher73

jobo said:


> well clearly the squat and dead lift will not train the WHOLE BODY, do you really need me to list the muscles they dont train ? there wouldn't be any other exercises if that were true
> 
> and I dont 5hink you need to be rude just because someone rightly disagrees with you, that just childish



Re-read my post, I said that the squat and deadlifts when done correctly will train the whole body TO STABILIZE ALL OF THE JOINTS, I did NOT say train all of the muscles.  If I was talking just working muscles, the squat, deadlift, bench and military press would hit all of your muscles.

You still have NOT countered my point with actual reasons, you just say that I'm wrong and then change around what was said.  It's not rude to point out a truthful fact.  I would say that about anyone that claims to teach others on something that will get you hurt and is based on faulty premises in training.


----------



## jobo

punisher73 said:


> WHAT?  This is so wrong on so many levels. Lifts like the squat and deadlift will train the WHOLE BODY  done correctly to stabilize all of the joints etc. for the lift. I'm not sure where you get a weak lower back from using proper form in a deadlift.  There are variations of the deadlift that will strengthen the lower back while still using good form.  You are arguing non-sense
> 
> 
> punisher73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Re-read my post, I said that the squat and deadlifts when done correctly will train the whole body TO STABILIZE ALL OF THE JOINTS, I did NOT say train all of the muscles.  If I was talking just working muscles, the squat, deadlift, bench and military press would hit all of your muscles.
> 
> You still have NOT countered my point with actual reasons, you just say that I'm wrong and then change around what was said.  It's not rude to point out a truthful fact.  I would say that about anyone that claims to teach others on something that will get you hurt and is based on faulty premises in training.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...


well that's wasnt at all clear,  you definitely said " train the whole body, and that has to include the WHOLE BODY by definition. ,if 8t doesn't then why even say " wholebody" in the first place, but then its doesn't work / stabilise all the joints either,  so your still wrong,

maybe when you've decided what it does and doesn't do, we can have a sensible discussion about all the other things your wrong about


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> well that's wasnt at all clear,  you definitely said " train the whole body, and that has to include the WHOLE BODY by definition. ,if 8t doesn't then why even say " wholebody" in the first place, but then its doesn't work / stabilise all the joints either,  so your still wrong,
> 
> maybe when you've decided what it does and doesn't do, we can have a sensible discussion about all the other things your wrong about


Maybe try reading for intent, rather than nit-picking.


----------



## punisher73

jobo said:


> well that's wasnt at all clear,  you definitely said " train the whole body, and that has to include the WHOLE BODY by definition. ,if 8t doesn't then why even say " wholebody" in the first place, but then its doesn't work / stabilise all the joints either,  so your still wrong,
> 
> maybe when you've decided what it does and doesn't do, we can have a sensible discussion about all the other things your wrong about



Here is my exact quote, it was VERY specific.



> Lifts like the squat and deadlift will train the WHOLE BODY when done correctly to stabilize all of the joints etc. for the lift.



See if I am missing any of the major joints that work in those lifts to stabilize the body:  ankles, knees, hips, wrists, elbows and shoulders. 

I agree with gpseymour. I am not going to waste anymore time on this when you miss the whole intent of what someone says.


----------



## jobo

punisher73 said:


> Re-read my post, I said that the squat and deadlifts when done correctly will train the whole body TO STABILIZE ALL OF THE JOINTS, I did NOT say train all of the muscles.  If I was talking just working muscles, the squat, deadlift, bench and military press would hit all of your muscles.
> 
> You still have NOT countered my point with actual reasons, you just say that I'm wrong and then change around what was said.  It's not rude to point out a truthful fact.  I would say that about anyone that claims to teach others on something that will get you hurt and is based on faulty premises in training.


and here is your last quote,  the part you have capitalised  is very clear, your claiming it stabilises  ALL of the joints.


----------



## punisher73

jobo said:


> and here is your last quote,  the part you have capitalised  is very clear, your claiming it stabilises  ALL of the joints.



Name a joint not stabilized in those two lifts...BTW, we are talking about the bone to bone with functional movement medical definition and NOT the medical debate of what constitutes a joint, which if that is the case even doctors define it differently and come up with different numbers based on their definition.  So, yes, if you want to nitpick beyond the logical parameters of what we are really trying to talk about the squat/deadlift to NOT work the joints. Then we can say that the cranial sutures (skull plates coming together) definition or the 20 joints in your ear that some classify would not be worked.  I will concede that.


----------



## jobo

punisher73 said:


> Name a joint not stabilized in those two lifts...BTW, we are talking about the bone to bone with functional movement medical definition and NOT the medical debate of what constitutes a joint, which if that is the case even doctors define it differently and come up with different numbers based on their definition.  So, yes, if you want to nitpick beyond the logical parameters of what we are really trying to talk about the squat/deadlift to NOT work the joints. Then we can say that the cranial sutures (skull plates coming together) definition or the 20 joints in your ear that some classify would not be worked.  I will concede that.


two lifts, you said each stabilised all joints,

8m not doing your job for you, there are 360 joints in the human body not including the ear or 5he scull and your claim was that a sqaut  or a dead lift stabilised every one , now either that, as unlikely as it seems is correct and you can evidence that or more likely its a complete and utter fabrication. I'm waiting ,,,!


----------



## punisher73

jobo said:


> two lifts, you said each stabilised all joints,
> 
> 8m not doing your job for you, there are 360 joints in the human body not including the ear or 5he scull and your claim was that a sqaut  or a dead lift stabilised every one , now either that, as unlikely as it seems is correct and you can evidence that or more likely its a complete and utter fabrication. I'm waiting ,,,!



What you mean to say is that you can't support your position, so you want the other person to write something and then look for something to disagree with.  It was your claim that the lifts don't stabilize the joints of the body, therefore it is up to you to back it up by providing an example of one.  I already listed the main joints people associate with those lifts, not even getting into the trunk/core support of those lifts that take care of the spinal joints.


----------



## jobo

punisher73 said:


> What you mean to say is that you can't support your position, so you want the other person to write something and then look for something to disagree with.  It was your claim that the lifts don't stabilize the joints of the body, therefore it is up to you to back it up by providing an example of one.  I already listed the main joints people associate with those lifts, not even getting into the trunk/core support of those lifts that take care of the spinal joints.


no it wasn5, I didn't mention joints at all, you brought that up.

your now trying to move your claim to " main joints" when you clearly said " all joints "

and wheres is this " list of main joints" of which you speak ?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> two lifts, you said each stabilised all joints,
> 
> 8m not doing your job for you, there are 360 joints in the human body not including the ear or 5he scull and your claim was that a sqaut  or a dead lift stabilised every one , now either that, as unlikely as it seems is correct and you can evidence that or more likely its a complete and utter fabrication. I'm waiting ,,,!


So, you're concerned that the jaw joint isn't stabilized?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> no it wasn5, I didn't mention joints at all, you brought that up.
> 
> your now trying to move your claim to " main joints" when you clearly said " all joints "
> 
> and wheres is this " list of main joints" of which you speak ?


Maybe try reading to understand, rather than reading for the purpose of disagreeing. If you're only planning to disagree, why bother to read, at all?


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> Maybe try reading to understand, rather than reading for the purpose of disagreeing. If you're only planning to disagree, why bother to read, at all?


but he started this discurse on dead lifts by disagreeing with me.  perhaps you should suggest this reading to understand thing to both sides, or even deal with the personal insults he was throwing about earlier in the thread,  it's rather one sided " policing " that goes on here


----------



## punisher73

jobo said:


> no it wasn5, I didn't mention joints at all, you brought that up.
> 
> your now trying to move your claim to " main joints" when you clearly said " all joints "
> 
> and wheres is this " list of main joints" of which you speak ?





jobo said:


> no it wasn5, I didn't mention joints at all, you brought that up.
> 
> your now trying to move your claim to " main joints" when you clearly said " all joints "
> 
> and wheres is this " list of main joints" of which you speak ?



I still stand by the claim of "all joints" and I have defined that for you so we would be on the same page and admitted under certain definitions of a "joint" being just bone to bone it wouldn't stabilize them, and gave the example of the human skull plates or the joints in the ear.

Also, I never moved my claim to "main joints" only RE-READ THE POSTS!!! Here are the exact quotes:

Here was the first quote "with the list"

_*See if I am missing any of the major joints that work in those lifts to stabilize the body*: ankles, knees, hips, wrists, elbows and shoulders._

Here was your chance to name a joint, major or otherwise to prove your claim and disprove mine.  You never named one.

Here is the second quote:

_I already *listed the main joints people associate* with those lifts, not even getting into the trunk/core support of those lifts that take care of the spinal joints_

You are still making the claim it doesn't hit all of the joints and you were asked to name the joint that wasn't. You still have not done so.  You still HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION.  Now you are arguing of my use of the word "major joints".  It was directed TO YOU to answer with an example, I gave you a starting point for a list of joints, not an exhaustive list, it is now up to you to ANSWER THE QUESTION.

What joints are NOT stabilized through the squat/deadlift when done correctly?[/QUOTE]


----------



## punisher73

jobo said:


> but he started this discurse on dead lifts by disagreeing with me.  perhaps you should suggest this reading to understand thing to both sides, or even deal with* the personal insults* he was throwing about earlier in the thread,  it's rather one sided " policing " that goes on here



Please quote me where I made a personal insult....

I have not called you any names or made any reference to you as a person.


----------



## jobo

punisher73 said:


> I still stand by the claim of "all joints" and I have defined that for you so we would be on the same page and admitted under certain definitions of a "joint" being just bone to bone it wouldn't stabilize them, and gave the example of the human skull plates or the joints in the ear.
> 
> Also, I never moved my claim to "main joints" only RE-READ THE POSTS!!! Here are the exact quotes:
> 
> Here was the first quote "with the list"
> 
> _*See if I am missing any of the major joints that work in those lifts to stabilize the body*: ankles, knees, hips, wrists, elbows and shoulders._
> 
> Here was your chance to name a joint, major or otherwise to prove your claim and disprove mine.  You never named one.
> 
> Here is the second quote:
> 
> _I already *listed the main joints people associate* with those lifts, not even getting into the trunk/core support of those lifts that take care of the spinal joints_
> 
> You are still making the claim it doesn't hit all of the joints and you were asked to name the joint that wasn't. You still have not done so.  You still HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION.  Now you are arguing of my use of the word "major joints".  It was directed TO YOU to answer with an example, I gave you a starting point for a list of joints, not an exhaustive list, it is now up to you to ANSWER THE QUESTION.
> 
> What joints are NOT stabilized through the squat/deadlift when done correctly?


[/QUOTE]
I haven't made a claim about joints, you have so just be clear your sticking by your claim that the squat  stabilises all 360 joints or your sticking by the claim you didn't make that it stabilises major joints, of which you've managed after racking your brain to name 6 , a number of which arnt joints , but rather a collection of joints that you have lumped together , the knee for instance is two joints, nether of which is called the knee joint. 

it makes it impossible to know what your claiming when your using primary school biology


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> but he started this discurse on dead lifts by disagreeing with me.  perhaps you should suggest this reading to understand thing to both sides, or even deal with the personal insults he was throwing about earlier in the thread,  it's rather one sided " policing " that goes on here


He disagreed with an actual point you made - and one where if we went by your actual words you were wrong (but you later clarified what you actually meant).

You're CHOOSING to read for the purpose of disagreement, though you're perfectly capable of understanding his point. You've acted like you don't understand, because you like arguing. But I'm certain you are smart enough to understand the point.


----------



## punisher73

I haven't made a claim about joints, you have so just be clear your sticking by your claim that the squat  stabilises all 360 joints or your sticking by the claim you didn't make that it stabilises major joints, of which you've managed after racking your brain to name 6 , a number of which arnt joints , but rather a collection of joints that you have lumped together , the knee for instance is two joints, nether of which is called the knee joint.

it makes it impossible to know what your claiming when your using primary school biology[/QUOTE]

Once again....no answer.

Nope not impossible to know if you actually read something.



> BTW, we are talking about the bone to bone with functional movement medical definition and NOT the medical debate of what constitutes a joint, which if that is the case even doctors define it differently and come up with different numbers based on their definition.



Really, "primary school biology"?  Accepted term, even by medical doctors, is to say the "knee joint" when referring to that structure. You are really desperate to not admit that you were wrong on this.Once again, you can't answer the question and try to nitpick something instead of answering it.  

I'm STILL waiting for an answer....come on now, name JUST ONE instead of trying to find little loopholes to get out of your position.

The burden of proof is on you now.  Anymore attempts to nitpick and argue minor terms will be ignored.  You know what the premise was, now name a joint.  ANY joint, I even requoted the working definition for you above so there wouldn't be a mistake about what I am asking.


----------



## jobo

punisher73 said:


> I haven't made a claim about joints, you have so just be clear your sticking by your claim that the squat  stabilises all 360 joints or your sticking by the claim you didn't make that it stabilises major joints, of which you've managed after racking your brain to name 6 , a number of which arnt joints , but rather a collection of joints that you have lumped together , the knee for instance is two joints, nether of which is called the knee joint.
> 
> it makes it impossible to know what your claiming when your using primary school biology



Once again....no answer.

Nope not impossible to know if you actually read something.



Really, "primary school biology"?  Accepted term, even by medical doctors, is to say the "knee joint" when referring to that structure. You are really desperate to not admit that you were wrong on this.Once again, you can't answer the question and try to nitpick something instead of answering it.

I'm STILL waiting for an answer....come on now, name JUST ONE instead of trying to find little loopholes to get out of your position.

The burden of proof is on you now.  Anymore attempts to nitpick and argue minor terms will be ignored.  You know what the premise was, now name a joint.  ANY joint, I even requoted the working definition for you above so there wouldn't be a mistake about what I am asking.[/QUOTE]
I'd love to see some evidence that's doctors commonly referred to it as the knee joint, show me a scientific paper were is so. is this an appeal to authority ,  if so let's see your authority!

I've made no claim and so have no burden of proof, .

8m still waiting for you to show 5hat a sqaut stabilises all joints, a claim that you actually made. trying to shift the burden of proof to me wont cover up your foolishness.


----------



## punisher73

I'd love to see some evidence that's doctors commonly referred to it as the knee joint, show me a scientific paper were is so. is this an appeal to authority ,  if so let's see your authority!

I've made no claim and so have no burden of proof, .

8m still waiting for you to show 5hat a sqaut stabilises all joints, a claim that you actually made. trying to shift the burden of proof to me wont cover up your foolishness.[/QUOTE]

Typed in "medical paper knee joint", these popped up right at the top of google
Definition of Knee joint (medical definition of "knee joint")  
A Paper on DIAGNOSIS AND TREATMENT OF COMMON INJURIES OF THE KNEE JOINT  (Diagnosis and Treatment of Common Injuries of the Knee Joint)
Arthroscopic versus open debridement of penetrating knee joint injuries.  - PubMed - NCBI (Arthroscopic versus open debridement of penetrating knee joint injuries)

You were given a definition and list of the joints that the squat and deadlift stabilize.  You say "no" they don't, therefore the burden is on you to point out what they don't work with. I have already shown that they do, you disagree with that statement, in a debate it now shifts to you to provide an example of a joint that is not involved in one of those two lifts.  

Still waiting, last chance to prove me wrong.  I am officially done debating unless you name one of those joints, because at this point the burden of proof IS on you.


----------



## jobo

punisher73 said:


> I'd love to see some evidence that's doctors commonly referred to it as the knee joint, show me a scientific paper were is so. is this an appeal to authority ,  if so let's see your authority!
> 
> I've made no claim and so have no burden of proof, .
> 
> 8m still waiting for you to show 5hat a sqaut stabilises all joints, a claim that you actually made. trying to shift the burden of proof to me wont cover up your foolishness.



Typed in "medical paper knee joint", these popped up right at the top of google
Definition of Knee joint (medical definition of "knee joint") 
A Paper on DIAGNOSIS AND TREATMENT OF COMMON INJURIES OF THE KNEE JOINT  (Diagnosis and Treatment of Common Injuries of the Knee Joint)
Arthroscopic versus open debridement of penetrating knee joint injuries.  - PubMed - NCBI (Arthroscopic versus open debridement of penetrating knee joint injuries)

You were given a definition and list of the joints that the squat and deadlift stabilize.  You say "no" they don't, therefore the burden is on you to point out what they don't work with. I have already shown that they do, you disagree with that statement, in a debate it now shifts to you to provide an example of a joint that is not involved in one of those two lifts. 

Still waiting, last chance to prove me wrong.  I am officially done debating unless you name one of those joints, because at this point the burden of proof IS on you.[/QUOTE] no you have to prove your statement, that the general rule in such things. no one is ever required to prove a negative


----------



## Buka

punisher73 said:


> I still stand by the claim of "all joints" and I have defined that for you so we would be on the same page and admitted under certain definitions of a "joint" being just bone to bone it wouldn't stabilize them, and gave the example of the human skull plates or the joints in the ear.
> 
> Also, I never moved my claim to "main joints" only RE-READ THE POSTS!!! Here are the exact quotes:
> 
> Here was the first quote "with the list"
> 
> _*See if I am missing any of the major joints that work in those lifts to stabilize the body*: ankles, knees, hips, wrists, elbows and shoulders._
> 
> Here was your chance to name a joint, major or otherwise to prove your claim and disprove mine.  You never named one.
> 
> Here is the second quote:
> 
> _I already *listed the main joints people associate* with those lifts, not even getting into the trunk/core support of those lifts that take care of the spinal joints_
> 
> You are still making the claim it doesn't hit all of the joints and you were asked to name the joint that wasn't. You still have not done so.  You still HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION.  Now you are arguing of my use of the word "major joints".  It was directed TO YOU to answer with an example, I gave you a starting point for a list of joints, not an exhaustive list, it is now up to you to ANSWER THE QUESTION.
> 
> What joints are NOT stabilized through the squat/deadlift when done correctly?


[/QUOTE]


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> Maybe try reading for intent, rather than nit-picking.


Yes, can you imagine if everyone on here "nit-picked" his typing. We would be talking about nothing else.


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> Yes, can you imagine if everyone on here "nit-picked" his typing. We would be talking about nothing else.


GMC yrdgh mmhgfrtggggf?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> GMC yrdgh mmhgfrtggggf?


Are you being attacked by your tablet, mate, or did you swallow it?


----------



## Glenn67

BJJ is coming along good now.Coming out of the slog of learning and beginning to get submissions now.The strength training was a must.Most guys are younger and stronger.Added wrestling in too for stand up and really like it.The next 6 months should really bring it up for me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Glenn67 said:


> BJJ is coming along good now.Coming out of the slog of learning and beginning to get submissions now.The strength training was a must.Most guys are younger and stronger.Added wrestling in too for stand up and really like it.The next 6 months should really bring it up for me.


Thanks for posting the update! It's always great to hear folks are enjoying themselves, getting a lot out of the journey they've chosen.


----------

