# Go Belts and Other Gi Items



## Rusty B (Nov 17, 2019)

Hello, all!  This is my first post.

I'm two weeks into training (Shorin-Ryu), and I have some weight to lose - 100 pounds to be exact.

There's that "free uniform" that you get, that is clearly of lower quality than the gis worn by others.

Inevitably; I'm going to have to buy new gis as I loose weight.

But my question isn't about the gi itself.

I'm also finding higher quality belts online than what's given at the dojo.

Some of these companies offer kanji/katakana embroidery on the belts.

At my dojo, I only see yudansha with such embroidery.

Before I go asking whether or not kyu belts are permitted to have the embroidery, what I want to know is that even it is permitted... would I be perceived as a "douche" or "that guy" if I ordered one?

In case you believe the answer is "no," and you follow up by asking me why I would ask this question, here's why: at my job, people often put letters at the end of their name in their signature block of their email.  I don't think anyone would have an issue with a PhD doing it.  Some people with master's degrees do it.  I have an MBA, and I don't do it because least half the people at job have a master's so none of the people putting MBA, MS, MA, etc in their signature blocks are impressing anyone. Even more laughable are people with a bachelor's degrees doing it.  My job actually stepped in and made a rule that only graduate degrees can be put in signature blocks - presumably because they were cringed out by all the BA's and BS's after people's names.

That said... I want to look as sharp and dedicated as possible.  But I don't want to be "that guy."

What is your take?


----------



## jobo (Nov 17, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Hello, all!  This is my first post.
> 
> I'm two weeks into training (Shorin-Ryu), and I have some weight to lose - 100 pounds to be exact.
> 
> ...


id consider you '' THAT GUY'' i cant speak for  you group, 

shouldn't you really be worrying about loosing weight rather than obsessing about embroidery ? 

id be judging you on your MA skills not how sharp you look, but you will possible look sharper if you lost 100 LBS, most people do


----------



## Headhunter (Nov 17, 2019)

You've been training 2 weeks and you're already thinking about belt embroidery? Get your priorities straight. I've never bought a belt from anywhere. I've always only used the ones that are given to me because...it's a belt...who cares.

Gis yeah because the size changes, they get broken and old but belts no I've never bought a new belt even ones that look older

Why're you even looking at belts online? No one cares about the quality of your belt they care about they quality of your skills. Who cares if a belt is "lower quality"

Yeah I'd totally see you as that guy. Of course every place is different but if I saw someone come into class with a belt they'd bought themselves and got embroided with their rank or whatever then yeah I'd think they're a bit stuck up and full of themselves. You've been training 2 weeks you shouldn't be worrying about any belt let alone  embroided belts or any of that nonsense


----------



## Headhunter (Nov 17, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> You've been training 2 weeks and you're already thinking about belt embroidery? Get your priorities straight. I've never bought a belt from anywhere. I've always only used the ones that are given to me because...it's a belt...who cares.
> 
> Gis yeah because the size changes, they get broken and old but belts no I've never bought a new belt even ones that look older
> 
> ...


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2019)

As you progress in your training and your physical size changes, it is appropriate to find a quality gi that fits well.  Get input from your teacher, he may have access to certain brands for discounts and such, and may be able to help you make a good choice.

I would discourage you from getting embroidery on a colored belt.  I’ve never seen it done.  It is usually done on black belts, and honestly I’m not a fan of it there either.  But that is my personal opinion.  I don’t like glam.

At black belt, if you want to find a higher quality belt, that would make sense to me.  As a colored belt, I really do not see any need for it.

Welcome to Martialtalk, congratulations on beginning your training and dedicating yourself to making some self-improvements.  Train hard and enjoy the process and don’t worry about the rest of it.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 17, 2019)

Thanks for the responses, everyone.

Just want to clarify some things:

There is no "obsession;" the reason I found these things online is because when I was signing up - and before I was issued my gi - I inquired about purchasing a second one, as the number of times I intend to attend classes per week is too much for one gi (i.e., five times a week, as my personal schedule permits).

However, when I was issued my gi, it was of noticeably lower quality than what hanshi was wearing.  So I decided to search online for something better... and I decided to hold off and deal with the inconvenience of washing my one gi five times per week, as I was unable to justify to myself the cost of buying two higher quality gis every time I go down a size (currently 8, when I should be a 5 or 6 at my height - 5'11.5" to be exact).

But that's when noticed the belts, and decided to ask here.

BTW, I like looking sharp because I like looking sharp.  Not in hopes of currying favor with anyone.  I only care about how I'm perceived if it will negatively affect my interactions with others.  Hence why I asked the question here, instead of jumping right on it.

As for the two weeks... it's not that simple.  I signed up for six months to take advantage of the discount, so I see no harm in looking out at least that far.


----------



## jobo (Nov 17, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Thanks for the responses, everyone.
> 
> Just want to clarify some things:
> 
> ...


You wash the gi ?


----------



## Headhunter (Nov 17, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Thanks for the responses, everyone.
> 
> Just want to clarify some things:
> 
> ...


The instructor is wearing a higher quality gi than the new guy? Funny that lol.

Why are you even looking at gi quality? So what if the instructor has a nicer gi than you? Is it  martial art training or a fashion parade? focus on your training and wear whatever you've got, I mean you don't even know if you'll continue yet


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2019)

I don’t think he is talking about “nice”.  I believe he is talking about “quality”.  There is a difference.


----------



## Headhunter (Nov 17, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t think he is talking about “nice”.  I believe he is talking about “quality”.  There is a difference.


His main thing is about belt embroidery that's got nothing to do with quality


----------



## hoshin1600 (Nov 17, 2019)

stay away from the fancy stuff.  try to blend in with what every one else is doing. if everyone had a high end belt with their name on it then fine but you do not what to stand out from the class.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 17, 2019)

True, Headhunter, but if I was going to order a higher quality belt and they offer embroidery, the question was "should I go for it."

I know now the answer is "no."


----------



## Buka (Nov 17, 2019)

Welcome to Martial Talk, bro. Best going forward, enjoy your training.

As for letters after your name or belt embroidery, you should probably go with NKG..........New Karate Guy. 

That was meant to be funny, not taking any shots. Just go have fun training. And please keep us posted as you progress.


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> His main thing is about belt embroidery that's got nothing to do with quality


Sure,  but not the gi.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 17, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Hello, all!  This is my first post.
> 
> I'm two weeks into training (Shorin-Ryu), and I have some weight to lose - 100 pounds to be exact.
> 
> ...


First off, welcome to the forum. It is a good, healthy place for martial arts minded people. 

You are going to get a lot of opinions here, most of them quite candid. That is a very good thing if you receive it well.

To your post, yes you would be that guy if you got your belt embroidered. Looking at it from a higher level, I wonder if the need or desire to put a label/tag on yourself after only 2 weeks into a journey that can and should last a lifetime (at the very least years)is indicative of some other underlying issues.  It sounds a bit compulsive and preening. It is much more important to find the joy in doing the work and sweating through class/rank. At the end of the day that is the real magic in making martial arts work for any person. Unless the appropriate benchmarks have been met, what a belt has written on it or sometimes even it's color does nothing to identify the proficiency or quality of a person. If such labels are applied too soon it usually means just the opposite. 
Instead, I would suggest you make a functional plan. Beginning an exercise program is a fantastic start. Set down and write out realistic benchmarks for your weight loss. Talk to your instructor and see if a written curriculum exist that you can combine with the weight schedule. Figure out how they can best work together. Over time you should learn how/where/when to optimize your efforts. It is the best way to understand what things help and/or hurt the process. It will not be easy and that is something you have to learn to accept. Eventually it Will get easier if you put the work in. 
When you map out your plan set some notable accomplishment triggers. Think about smart, healthy rewards for hitting the triggers. If you decide a mark of some sort on your belt is a strong motivator to you for reaching an accomplishment then I would wholeheartedly support it. It gives the reward a substantial value. That is worth much more than an empty label.  
Stay in touch. Let us know how things progress.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Nov 17, 2019)

So as long as your instructor has no issues with it, get what you like in terms of gi and belt.  Personally, I've never done any kind of embroidery, but that's just me.  I used to spend some money on higher-quality gis and now I don't.  A middle weight Century with an elastic waistband and an average obi are all I feel the need for.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 17, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> So as long as your instructor has no issues with it, get what you like in terms of gi and belt.  Personally, I've never done any kind of embroidery, but that's just me.  I used to spend some money on higher-quality gis and now I don't.  A middle weight Century with an elastic waistband and an average obi are all I feel the need for.


I agree but I hate the more poly than cotton feel of the cheap Century uniforms. I have to admit I splurged on an Adidas ADI-Flex uniform that is by far the coolest, most comfortable uniform I have ever owned. I have a Mooto I really like as well. These are only a year old, my others are '80's-'90's vintage and show it with very noticeable pit stains. Adidas uniforms how up very well. IMHO


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 17, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Looking at it from a higher level, I wonder if the need or desire to put a label/tag on yourself after only 2 weeks into a journey that can and should last a lifetime (at the very least years)is indicative of some other underlying issues.



If I was determined to do it (you seem think I am), I wouldn't have asked anyone here first.  I don't think asking about it means that I've been passed back-and-forth between a priest and a scout leader as a child or otherwise need my head examined.  Hell, I didn't even know these things existed until I looked for higher quality gis than the "free" one I was given.  I merely saw them, then inquired about it here.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 17, 2019)

I'd find it weird if a new guy came in with an embroidered belt. I've never even considered getting a belt that wasn't the one given to me when I rank up. If I taught and found out someone bought a belt for themselves I'd consider that very odd.

As for the gi, get whatever gi you want. Just check first before you get a colored one if that's okay-some places will use colored gis as another way to denote rank so it would be like accidentally going to class wearing a green belt instead of your white belt.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 17, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> If I was determined to do it (you seem think I am), I wouldn't have asked anyone here first.  I don't think asking about it means that I've been passed back-and-forth between a priest and a scout leader as a child or otherwise need my head examined.  Hell, I didn't even know these things existed until I looked for higher quality gis than the "free" one I was given.  I merely saw them, then inquired about it here.


I hope you read my entire post. 
Like I said, if you do not want a candid response maybe you should ask your priest or a scout leader for embroidery advise.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Nov 17, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I agree but I hate the more poly than cotton feel of the cheap Century uniforms. I have to admit I splurged on an Adidas ADI-Flex uniform that is by far the coolest, most comfortable uniform I have ever owned. I have a Mooto I really like as well. These are only a year old, my others are '80's-'90's vintage and show it with very noticeable pit stains. Adidas uniforms how up very well. IMHO



The middleweight Century is all cotton.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 18, 2019)

Ok. Here is how you go about being that guy. Get a white gi. Tie dye it. 

Job done.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 18, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> True, Headhunter, but if I was going to order a higher quality belt and they offer embroidery, the question was "should I go for it."
> 
> I know now the answer is "no."



Wait until you smash the weight off anyway.  Otherwise you are that guy in a good that doesn't fit.


----------



## Papageno (Nov 18, 2019)

Rules differ from style to style and sometimes even club to club. As for belts, we are allowed to have embroidery (i.e. style name on one end and your name on the other) if you have a brown or black belt. That said, I wouldn't dream of putting it on my brown belt. I've seen brown belts with embroidery a couple of times, but it looks ridiculous. It's very rare here. Black belts, that's a different matter. Most black belts here have embroidery.

But belts are just for show, your gi is something completely different. It's about comfort and practical needs. I've tried a few until I found a gi I like. I actually have two, one worn that I use for regular training and one newer (and whiter!) to use in contests and exams. Get a gi that you really like and feel comfortably in. Regarding your belt... well, you might want to lay low for now and see what gives in your club.

Remember you've already made the greatest decision in your life to take up this training. If you pursue this, you WILL lose weight, you WILL feel good about yourself and you will even be able to catch that bus across the street with a little running. Something you probably wouldn't have done a few weeks earlier. Keep it up and welcome to martial Talk.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 18, 2019)

Since we're being candid, dvcochran, if someone asking about a belt has ruffled your feathers so much that you're questioning their mental state, then you're the one with problems.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 18, 2019)

Papageno said:


> Rules differ from style to style and sometimes even club to club. As for belts, we are allowed to have embroidery (i.e. style name on one end and your name on the other) if you have a brown or black belt. That said, I wouldn't dream of putting it on my brown belt. I've seen brown belts with embroidery a couple of times, but it looks ridiculous. It's very rare here. Black belts, that's a different matter. Most black belts here have embroidery.
> 
> But belts are just for show, your gi is something completely different. It's about comfort and practical needs. I've tried a few until I found a gi I like. I actually have two, one worn that I use for regular training and one newer (and whiter!) to use in contests and exams. Get a gi that you really like and feel comfortably in. Regarding your belt... well, you might want to lay low for now and see what gives in your club.
> 
> Remember you've already made the greatest decision in your life to take up this training. If you pursue this, you WILL lose weight, you WILL feel good about yourself and you will even be able to catch that bus across the street with a little running. Something you probably wouldn't have done a few weeks earlier. Keep it up and welcome to martial Talk.



Thanks!

I'm already a good runner; in fact, I ran ten miles yesterday morning.

I actually achieved the feat of losing 100 pounds back in 2014 with diet and running (up to 12 miles), but due to the fact that I treated the methods of my weight loss as a means to an end... I'm back to square one.

So this is definitely meant to be a lifestyle change.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2019)

If you're wondering what decoration is allowed at your school, you need to ask your instructor. It's really that simple. 
As far as the gi goes, I'd honestly recommend you stick with the cheap ones. You've said you expect to be losing a fair bit of weight in a fairly short time. So why spend money on something you're going to bin in a couple months? A decent quality gi, like those from Century, will cost you about $100. A really good one can be considerably more. I buy my dobak from Moo Sool Sa. They're not cheap, nor are they anywhere near as pricey as some suppliers. And they're worth it, since I can wear them for 6-8 years before they need to be replaced.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 18, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you're wondering what decoration is allowed at your school, you need to ask your instructor. It's really that simple.
> As far as the gi goes, I'd honestly recommend you stick with the cheap ones. You've said you expect to be losing a fair bit of weight in a fairly short time. So why spend money on something you're going to bin in a couple months? A decent quality gi, like those from Century, will cost you about $100. A really good one can be considerably more. I buy my dobak from Moo Sool Sa. They're not cheap, nor are they anywhere near as pricey as some suppliers. And they're worth it, since I can wear them for 6-8 years before they need to be replaced.



I said earlier in the thread that this was the plan.  That $200+ gi shipped from Japan doesn't come until I've lost all my weight.

I'll also say this: the very same gi I was issued, if I wanted to purchase a second one (much more convenient for me to have two, if I train five times per week) or a new one every time I went down in size, I'd have to pay $35 for it.

I found the same gi online for $17.  My guess as to the reasoning for the markup is that he'd likely rather reserve them as free uniforms for new students.

The same brand has higher quality gis for the same price that I would have spent on another of the same gi that I currently have.

That said... it's good to shop around.


----------



## jobo (Nov 18, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Since we're being candid, dvcochran, if someone asking about a belt has ruffled your feathers so much that you're questioning their mental state, then you're the one with problems.


Well you did invite opinions  ? 8m constantly amazed at how much people will pay to look sharp in situation were looking sharp isn't at all important, I had an interesting discussion on a mountain bike forum, about how much people were prepared to pay to look rad whilst getting covered in mud and soaking wet . I couldn't for the ,ife of me how paying the cost of a semi decent stereo  represented good value. When they could get some old shorts and a hoodie that did just as well

But we are all different , if you want emboardry  then go for it


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 18, 2019)

jobo said:


> Well you did invite opinions  ?



Yeah, about whether or not one would be "that guy" if they showed up with an embroidered kyu belt.

I didn't expect insinuations that I needed to be put into a straight-jacket and locked into a padded cell over it.

That being said... I'm only dishing what I'm taking.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 18, 2019)

jobo said:


> 8m constantly amazed at how much people will pay to look sharp in situation were looking sharp isn't at all important,



The craziest thing about the free gi is that I can see my own nipples (and tattoos) through it.  Val Kilmer's Batman suit has nothing on my free gi!

If I don't rectify anything else, I'd at least like to rectify THAT!


----------



## jobo (Nov 18, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Yeah, about whether or not one would be "that guy" if they showed up with an embroidered kyu belt.
> 
> I didn't expect insinuations that I needed to be put into a straight-jacket and locked into a padded cell over it.
> 
> That being said... I'm only dishing what I'm taking.


well you perhaps need to think a little about perspective,  this is a ma forum populated by people who dedicate there lives there lives to achieving physical perfection through ma. it's likely they regard someone with two weeks exspeiance who comes on asking about embroidery   rather than physical improvement as rather shallow and perhaps focusing on the wrong thing.



I'm very modern and dont think people should be discriminated against just coz they have an interest in needle craft


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 18, 2019)

jobo said:


> well you perhaps need to think a little about perspective,  this is a ma forum populated by people who dedicate there lives there lives to achieving physical perfection through ma. it's likely they regard someone with two weeks exspeiance who comes on asking about embroidery   rather than physical improvement as rather shallow and perhaps focusing on the wrong thing.



Are you saying that there are people here with a tendency to eat their young?

Just because I'm talking about one thing at a particular moment doesn't mean that I don't care about something else.

When it comes to the actual training itself, I ask questions in the dojo for that.

However, when it comes to asking questions about whether or not a particular thing would make me look like "that guy"... it would make sense to use the anonymity of the internet for that.  At least, to me it does.


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 18, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> The craziest thing about the free gi is that I can see my own nipples (and tattoos) through it.  Val Kilmer's Batman suit has nothing on my free gi!
> 
> If I don't rectify anything else, I'd at least like to rectify THAT!


You can wear a t-shirt under the gi.  That being said, there are some low quality gi that are more like lightweight pijamas.  Junk.

When I used to wear a gi, I preferred a heavyweight that would last.  But given your goals to size down, it makes sense to go with something inexpensive in the meantime.  But not the pijamas.  You need something better than that.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 18, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Since we're being candid, dvcochran, if someone asking about a belt has ruffled your feathers so much that you're questioning their mental state, then you're the one with problems.


I have no clue where you think my feathers got ruffled. You came on a martial arts forum asking for opinions. I obliged to tell you up front you would get a lot of different opinions. 
It seems it is you who got the feathers ruffled.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2019)

Knock it off guys. Don't make me put on my moderator hat and be all official and stuff.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 19, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I have no clue where you think my feathers got ruffled. You came on a martial arts forum asking for opinions. I obliged to tell you up front you would get a lot of different opinions.
> It seems it is you who got the feathers ruffled.


@Dirty Dog, I am being mindful or your warning. This is in no way a sniping. I am purely trying to encourage the OP to just work out and see his exercise from a higher perspective. 

Rusty B, you have deflected nearly post from other people. This is indicative of my inference earlier. Just work out and do not waste your energies on external stuff like the time you have spent researching and discussion embroidery on a belt. That is not at all where the joy in MA's is found. You said you lost the weight and now over about a 5 year period put it back on. So, barring no external factors, there was a lesson you did not learn somewhere in the first success. Sadly, is not unusual and I have seen it before. It is indicative of the destructive cycle of operating in the peaks and valleys of emotion and never finding the mean. 
The simple way to think of it is that someone starting any experience like the one you are starting must keep the "Why am I doing this" very much in the present. Over time that will be reconciled with the "How" as the result of the larger equation (in this case physical exercise to loose weight). Hopefully you will find many of the other benefits found in most all MA's such as the tenets of TKD (courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self control, indomitable spirit). Most all styles have similar principles. 

I am a 7th Dan MDK, 5th Dan Kukkiwon, 1st Dan Kali, two Masters degree and a P.E. I put no sub titles on my writings nor do I have any stripes on my belt. My GM gave me his old belt when he was promoted to 9th Dan. I took it and my original BB and joined them together as an example of Yin and Yang. The belt has very faded embroidery of my name in Korean on one side and my GM's on the others. It took me 35 years to attain this. The other stuff has taken me 56 years. Am I proud of them? You bet. Do they define me? Not at all as far as my self evaluation is concerned. 
A persons work has to be able to speak for itself.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 19, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Knock it off guys. Don't make me put on my moderator hat and be all official and stuff.



I think you should.  To be exact, locking this thread.  If I had the ability to "dirty delete" my OP, resulting in the whole thread going away along with it, I would have already done so.

Hell, I inquired about something I found online that costs less than a steak dinner at a restaurant, and we've got a two-page thread with an entire dissertation (see above) calling my character into question.  Now, all of sudden, I care more about an embroidered belt than learning the art (newsflash - I can buy ANY belt online I want WITHOUT taking a martial art, and say that I'm a 10th Dan in Rusty B-Do if such accusations were true); or I've "got issues."

I don't want this here any more than you do.


----------



## Headhunter (Nov 19, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> The craziest thing about the free gi is that I can see my own nipples (and tattoos) through it.  Val Kilmer's Batman suit has nothing on my free gi!
> 
> If I don't rectify anything else, I'd at least like to rectify THAT!


Then wear a t shirt underneath


----------



## Headhunter (Nov 19, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Are you saying that there are people here with a tendency to eat their young?
> 
> Just because I'm talking about one thing at a particular moment doesn't mean that I don't care about something else.
> 
> ...


 I think asking what's acceptable at your club would be much better asked to your instructor than a bunch of strangers. 

Also don't ask for opinions if you can't take the answers. I havent seen anything wrong with anyone's said to you


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 19, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> I think asking what's acceptable at your club would be much better asked to your instructor than a bunch of strangers.



I explained why I didn't.  See post #33. 



> Also don't ask for opinions if you can't take the answers.



I can take them.  But I can dish them too.  Can you all do the same?



> I havent seen anything wrong with anyone's said to you



If you think the same way they do, I can see why you would say this.


----------



## Headhunter (Nov 19, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> I explained why I didn't.  See post #33.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  Yeah but your reason made 0 sense. It's an instructors job to tell you what you can and can't do when your new so just ask him.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 19, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah but your reason made 0 sense. It's an instructors job to tell you what you can and can't do when your new so just ask him.



I addressed that in the OP.  Remember?  I said that even if it was  allowed, would I be "that guy?"

If so, there would be no point in asking the instructor whether or not it's allowed.

Pay attention, people!


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 19, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am a 7th Dan MDK, 5th Dan Kukkiwon, 1st Dan Kali, two Masters degree and a P.E.



Wait a second!  So... all this time, I've been going back and forth in a karate thread with someone who has never had anything to do with karate?

That ends immediately.  Unless it pertains to the martial arts that you yourself have practiced, I have zero interest in anything you have to say, as it holds zero weight with me.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 19, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Wait a second!  So... all this time, I've been going back and forth in a karate thread with someone who has never had anything to do with karate?
> 
> That ends immediately.  Unless it pertains to the martial arts that you yourself have practiced, I have zero interest in anything you have to say, as it holds zero weight with me.


My Shotakan karate and Kung Fu experience aside, which I did not mention, please explain how/why that has any bearing on answering your question?


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 19, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> My Shotakan karate and Kung Fu experience aside, which I did not mention, please explain how/why that has any bearing on answering your question?



I'm sorry, did you say something?


----------



## Headhunter (Nov 19, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> I'm sorry, did you say something?


Wow very mature sure you want to end this conversation. No issues here


----------



## Buka (Nov 19, 2019)

I think everybody should take a deep breath and chill. Chillin' be good for you.


----------



## dvcochran (Nov 19, 2019)

Yes, after my last attempt I blocked the OP. I'm chillin.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 19, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Wow very mature sure you want to end this conversation. No issues here



Certainly more mature than trying to continue a conversation with someone who has explicitly stated that they no longer wish to, no?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 19, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> If I was determined to do it (you seem think I am), I wouldn't have asked anyone here first.  I don't think asking about it means that I've been passed back-and-forth between a priest and a scout leader as a child or otherwise need my head examined.  Hell, I didn't even know these things existed until I looked for higher quality gis than the "free" one I was given.  I merely saw them, then inquired about it here.





Rusty B said:


> Yeah, about whether or not one would be "that guy" if they showed up with an embroidered kyu belt.
> 
> I didn't expect insinuations that I needed to be put into a straight-jacket and locked into a padded cell over it.
> 
> That being said... I'm only dishing what I'm taking.



I'm confused how you took "Looking at it from a higher level, I wonder if the need or desire to put a label/tag on yourself after only 2 weeks into a journey that can and should last a lifetime (at the very least years)is indicative of some other underlying issues. It sounds a bit compulsive and preening" to mean either that you were sexually molested, or need to be in a straight-jacket/padded cell. 

I also don't know where in "well you perhaps need to think a little about perspective, this is a ma forum populated by people who dedicate there lives there lives to achieving physical perfection through ma. it's likely they regard someone with two weeks exspeiance who comes on asking about embroidery rather than physical improvement as rather shallow and perhaps focusing on the wrong thing." you got anything about forum members liking to eat their children. 

Pretty sure you're making some leaps of logic and getting offended by things that were not meant to be offensive.


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 20, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I'm confused how you took "Looking at it from a higher level, I wonder if the need or desire to put a label/tag on yourself after only 2 weeks into a journey that can and should last a lifetime (at the very least years)is indicative of some other underlying issues. It sounds a bit compulsive and preening" to mean either that you were sexually molested, or need to be in a straight-jacket/padded cell.
> 
> I also don't know where in "well you perhaps need to think a little about perspective, this is a ma forum populated by people who dedicate there lives there lives to achieving physical perfection through ma. it's likely they regard someone with two weeks exspeiance who comes on asking about embroidery rather than physical improvement as rather shallow and perhaps focusing on the wrong thing." you got anything about forum members liking to eat their children.
> 
> Pretty sure you're making some leaps of logic and getting offended by things that were not meant to be offensive.



*Sigh*

Looks like my time at MA is about to come to and end, seeing as how someone with moderator powers has decided to hand me the rope to hang myself with.

But nevertheless...

That conversation with dvcochran is over.  I made it clear to him that I have no interest in anything he says, and now it looks like you're taking up the mantle and trying to continue  that conversation that I don't want to have on his behalf.

You want to psychoanalyze me because I asked a question about goddamned belt?  You have issues.

Now go ahead and use your moderator powers and do what you're going to do.  It's not as if I've had much of a positive experience here in the first place.


----------



## Headhunter (Nov 20, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> Looks like my time at MA is about to come to and end, seeing as how someone with moderator powers has decided to hand me the rope to hang myself with.
> 
> ...


This is how your time in this forum has gone, you asked for advice and opinions, you were given advice and opinions then you whined about those opinions . Now you're talking trash to people who have tried to help you


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 20, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> This is how your time in this forum has gone, you asked for advice and opinions, you were given advice and opinions then you whined about those opinions . Now you're talking trash to people who have tried to help you



LOL, if I'm "whining," then you all are.  Once again, I'm dishing exactly what I'm taking.  Whatever you want to call it, put the shoes on both feet.


----------



## Headhunter (Nov 20, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> LOL, if I'm "whining," then you all are.  Once again, I'm dishing exactly what I'm taking.  Whatever you want to call it, put the shoes on both feet.


Lol okay


----------



## Rusty B (Nov 20, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Lol okay



If that means you and I are done, then have a good day.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 20, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> Looks like my time at MA is about to come to and end, seeing as how someone with moderator powers has decided to hand me the rope to hang myself with.
> 
> ...


I literally did no psychoanalysis whatsoever. Just pointed out that you're making huge leaps and weren't told anything offensive.


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 20, 2019)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
MT Administrator


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 23, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Thanks for the responses, everyone.
> 
> Just want to clarify some things:
> 
> ...


Good questions. It can be tough to figure out the etiquette when you get started at a new place (especially if you're "new" in general). Never hurts to ask, and if the questions rub some folks the wrong way....well, better a group of doofuses (myself included) on some internet forum than the doofuses you train with. 

I'll just reiterate what others have said: don't worry about the belt. Use what you're given, and maybe consider something special when you get BB (some places actually require something special at that point). Until then, no belt you use is likely to get anywhere near wearing out.

For the gi, use the cheap ones at first. Make sure you're going to stick with it (you can't really know until you've been there a while) and the cheap ones will likely last at least a year or two. This is especially true since you're planning to lose weight. For now, get the size that fits most comfortably - don't go "snug" under any circumstances. You'll be surprised how long you can stick with that same gi, even as you lose weight. You're likely going to take up the sleeves long before you decide it's too loose and you need a smaller size.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 23, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> This is how your time in this forum has gone, you asked for advice and opinions, you were given advice and opinions then you whined about those opinions . Now you're talking trash to people who have tried to help you



When I am being a duche bag on line I wil at least take ownership of it. 

Probably a MMA thing.


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 13, 2019)

drop bear said:


> When I am being a duche bag on line I wil at least take ownership of it.
> 
> Probably a MMA thing.



So... here's how I'm perceiving what you're saying:

I'm new to a particular community and don't know the etiquette/protocol, and I ask questions that are offensive to the community that I'm new to.

That must mean that I'm some socially awkward dork that can get easily get sonned, right?  But because everyone here ended up finding out that that's not the case, they're mad at me for "not knowing my place."

I say "good."

But drop bear is saying that if he was in my position, he would allow himself to get sonned and is suggesting that I do the same.

Not happening.

Anyhow, as an update... I did buy three new gis.

I bought two 14 oz Fuji gis; they ended up being WAY too heavy (they feel like body armour), but I ended up keeping one (I'm sure I'll have a use for it) and sent the other one back.  I then followed up by ordering two 9.5 oz Ronin gis, and I'm happy with them.  The white belts that came with them are of much better quality than the one that came with the free gi - not that it matters now, because I made gold last night.  And the gold belt that was given to me is of good enough quality that I won't be seeking to replace it.


----------



## jobo (Dec 13, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> So... here's how I'm perceiving what you're saying:
> 
> I'm new to a particular community and don't know the etiquette/protocol, and I ask questions that are offensive to the community that I'm new to.
> 
> ...


 i do think your taking an irrational level of offence, it just means your an outlier in this community, at least as far as sartorial elegance goes,, the forum is a full of pointed disagreements on all level of things, just not usually the importance of embroidery

i used to frequent a mountain bike forum, where i was very much out of step on the clothing front, when i suggested that people who spent many hundreds on clothing, so they looked smart whilst getting very wet and muddy, were both shallow and had more money than sense, they got very antagonistic  and angry explained that 200 dollar shorts improved the whole sense of well being and they weren't at all just gullible fools for spending 194 dollars more than me

but then they got equally annoyed when i suggested you can have just as much fun on a 500 dollar bike as you could a 3 thousand dollar bike


----------



## drop bear (Dec 13, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> So... here's how I'm perceiving what you're saying:
> 
> I'm new to a particular community and don't know the etiquette/protocol, and I ask questions that are offensive to the community that I'm new to.
> 
> ...



No. I would be a duche bag about it. But I just wouldn't pretend to be the victim.

Anyway if you were going for a grappling style gi. (And I think they are the better option regardless of style)

Look at the hyperfly hyperlite. They are the ducks nuts.


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 13, 2019)

drop bear said:


> No. I would be a duche bag about it. But I just wouldn't pretend to be the victim.
> 
> Anyway if you were going for a grappling style gi. (And I think they are the better option regardless of style)
> 
> Look at the hyperfly hyperlite. They are the ducks nuts.



LOL, pretending to be the victim?  If I do say so myself, I say I'm doing a pretty good job of staying on the offensive.

Anyhow, when it comes to grappling martial arts... I'm looking at adding one in the future.  As I move up the mudansha ranks, where the testing intervals are wide enough so that I can attend a lower number of classes per week and still have the required hours by the next testing opportunities... only then will I add something else.  And this probably won't be for another year.

I'm eyeballing Judo.  BJJ is out of the question for me.  Four ranks, spread over 12 to 15 years, before making black belt?  If I can't see needles moving to the right, I'll lose interest.  I might as well watch pots boil.  No disrespect if you're BJJ; in fact, quite the opposite.  You've got the patience that I don't have.


----------



## Headhunter (Dec 13, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> LOL, pretending to be the victim?  If I do say so myself, I say I'm doing a pretty good job of staying on the offensive.
> 
> Anyhow, when it comes to grappling martial arts... I'm looking at adding one in the future.  As I move up the mudansha ranks, where the testing intervals are wide enough so that I can attend a lower number of classes per week and still have the required hours by the next testing opportunities... only then will I add something else.  And this probably won't be for another year.
> 
> I'm eyeballing Judo.  BJJ is out of the question for me.  Four ranks, spread over 12 to 15 years, before making black belt?  If I can't see needles moving to the right, I'll lose interest.  I might as well watch pots boil.  No disrespect if you're BJJ; in fact, quite the opposite.  You've got the patience that I don't have.


So basically you only care about the belts? Just because you don't get a piece of coloured fabric it doesn't mean you're not learning. Bjj is probably one of the best styles to see your own real improvement within yourself not from a belt. Because you can last longer in rolling you can defend things you couldn't before and you can react better. And you can add your own attacks In. To me ability and improvement is way more important than a belt.

You seem to care more about your belts and your gis and how good you look rather than what you're actually learning I mean you're already saying when belts have a wider gap your going to train less and just do enough to get your hours in for the belt.

I mean I don't know you but I've seen that type of mentality before. One example is a guy who started Muay Thai and after a week was spending all his time looking at gloves and shorts and shin pads etc...he quit after a month.

Not saying you'll quit but you need to focus more on what you're learning but hey right now maybe yeah you think the belts mean a lot. But the more experience you get the more you'll realise the belts really don't mean much at all. It's about what you learn to get those belts rather that the belt itself.

An exercise I've done with students before is I take off my black belt and go and put on a white belt and I ask the class. Does this mean I've now forgotten everything I've ever learned and now I know nothing? The answer of course is no.

Then I give a black belt to a white belt and tell him to put it on. I then ask him does that mean you can now teach a class and can compete and hold your own against black belts? Again the answer is no.

The point is the belt is nothing more than symbolism. You can dye it bright pink and put glitter all over it and it'll still mean the same. It's about what the martial artist knows not what his belt is. 
I've seen great black belts and I've seen useless black belts and they know in themselves how good they are belt or no belt


----------



## drop bear (Dec 13, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> LOL, pretending to be the victim?  If I do say so myself, I say I'm doing a pretty good job of staying on the offensive.
> 
> Anyhow, when it comes to grappling martial arts... I'm looking at adding one in the future.  As I move up the mudansha ranks, where the testing intervals are wide enough so that I can attend a lower number of classes per week and still have the required hours by the next testing opportunities... only then will I add something else.  And this probably won't be for another year.
> 
> I'm eyeballing Judo.  BJJ is out of the question for me.  Four ranks, spread over 12 to 15 years, before making black belt?  If I can't see needles moving to the right, I'll lose interest.  I might as well watch pots boil.  No disrespect if you're BJJ; in fact, quite the opposite.  You've got the patience that I don't have.



Unfortunately pretty much every grappling art is being stuck under a sweaty guy for the first 6 months or so. Being basically useless

Lack of progress is one of the big factors as to why people quit.

6 months of Krav and I would be able to ninja the whole room. And here I am unable to escape side mount.

I can't even hip throw some dudes without getting suplexed.


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 13, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> So basically you only care about the belts? Just because you don't get a piece of coloured fabric it doesn't mean you're not learning. Bjj is probably one of the best styles to see your own real improvement within yourself not from a belt. Because you can last longer in rolling you can defend things you couldn't before and you can react better. And you can add your own attacks In. To me ability and improvement is way more important than a belt.
> 
> You seem to care more about your belts and your gis and how good you look rather than what you're actually learning I mean you're already saying when belts have a wider gap your going to train less and just do enough to get your hours in for the belt.
> 
> ...



Jesus Christ, man, y'all are really stuck on "all you care about is [insert trivial thing here].

I was talking about quality of items up until this point.

Here, I'm talking about tracking progress.  It doesn't even have to be a belt, it could be a certificate on the wall that no one else is going to see.  At least aikido does something similar - all mudansha wear white belts, but still have kyu ranks that they get promoted through.

If I'm going to college, paying tuition, and busting my *** with all of the studying and academic work, I'd BETTER see some credits accumulating on my transcript; or I won't be staying very long.  I wouldn't expect anything different from anyone else.


----------



## Headhunter (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Jesus Christ, man, y'all are really stuck on "all you care about is [insert trivial thing here].
> 
> I was talking about quality of items up until this point.
> 
> ...


Well the question is: are you training to get belts and certificates or are you training because you want to learn a style? Either answer is fine as its your own choice. But as I say the belts and certificates really mean very little when it comes to skill as a martial artist


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Well the question is: are you training to get belts and certificates or are you training because you want to learn a style? Either answer is fine as its your own choice. But as I say the belts and certificates really mean very little when it comes to skill as a martial artist



The fact the new material is being taught to you as you progress through the ranks debunks the pseudo-philosophical notion that "belts don't mean anything."

Just as you wouldn't teach calculus to a first grader, you wouldn't teach material introduced at the brown belt level to a white belt.

Belts don't mean anything?  If that's the case, do this: go sign up for a martial art (other than BJJ); and put in well past the minimum required hours for the next belt, but don't test.  Tell me whether or not you get asked questions about not signing up to test, or otherwise poked and prodded to do so, with increasing impatience from the instructors as time goes by.  Better yet, when approached, tell them you don't care about belts because they don't mean anything.

Then report back here and tell me how it all worked out.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Belts don't mean anything?  If that's the case, do this: go sign up for a martial art (other than BJJ); and put in well past the minimum required hours for the next belt, but don't test.  Tell me whether or not you get asked questions about not signing up to test, or otherwise poked and prodded to do so, with increasing impatience from the instructors as time goes by.  Better yet, when approached, tell them you don't care about belts because they don't mean anything.
> 
> Then report back here and tell me how it all worked out.



I knew you were going to ask this very question, so nearly 4 years ago () I started tkd and kickboxing - with the same club, to ensure the attitude wasn't affected by different club structures...

There are 3 metrics used to determine whether you receive an invitation to test:
Firstly is ability.
Then if that is met, is time in grade (3 months each grade to start, 6 months for a few, a year for the last one before black).
And if those are both satisfied there's minimum attendance in each time period.

In tkd, I far exceeded the attendance for each grade and my ability was deemed to be satisfactory (or better) so I have tested and passed (or better) every time - my next test (in about march if I meet the ability requirements, that'll be the minimum time and I think I already have the attendance) will be to 1st Dan black.

Admittedly, had I not tested in tkd I'd still be doing the same technical work and fundamental exercises as the other white belts - we all still do that btw, but that's all I'd be doing.

In kickboxing, I far exceeded the attendance for each period, and have received invites for every test, but through my own choice have only tested twice out of a theoretically possible 9.

I have had no pressure to test, have had no "prodding or poking" - I've had discussions about it with the instructors (instigated by me, they haven't approached asking why I'm not testing - they've only asked if I am or not) and pretty much expressed the opinion that getting another belt isn't very important to me at all.

I still train with the higher grades - on the same material, I still spar with the higher grades - I've jokingly said to some of the black+ belts "go easy, I'm only an orange belt" and had "yeah, right " in reply.

There's a small financial incentive for them to get me to test too - there is a fee for each test (not a huge amount, but still), but I pay no extra for training time. The payment structure is that there is one amount to pay for one session per week in either discipline, or another, almost double fee for as many sessions as you like in either or both. So, I pay the same if I do two tkd per week as if I do 6 tkd and 4 kickboxing.

Some of the aforementioned black belts were red or orange when I started and have tested where I haven't - yet I can't have been left behind all that much in ability or technical competence as they still choose to partner with me.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Four ranks, spread over 12 to 15 years, before making black belt?



Depends how you look at it really.

As far as I'm aware, most bjj schools stripe the belts as you go through - 4 stripes on each belt before getting the next?

So technically, that's like 20 ranks (plain plus 1-4 stripes per belt) - white, white 1, white 2, etc...

Purely on numbers, that's more ranks to get to black than it's possible to test through in something like tkd which has 10 kups and 9 dans. There's nothing like milking those ranks eh? 

It also depends on what you think a black belt actually means, if anything. On whichever basis you choose, black in one school may equal blue in another and green somewhere else and brown in yet another.

Basically, a black belt shouldn't really be a target or an end goal - it's just another step on the way.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Jesus Christ, man, y'all are really stuck on "all you care about is [insert trivial thing here].
> 
> I was talking about quality of items up until this point.
> 
> ...


FWIW Rusty, I have had to learn that this is a worldwide forum and that some of the responses are just different from what I would normally hear from my part of the world. Part of the challenge (and fun for me) is translating what is sometimes said so that I fully understand it. 
Then, just like in every forum I have been on there are some folks that are sad and unhappy and are going to try and rain on everyone's parade. I suggest ignoring generous amounts of what you may read from these folks and try to find the stuff that is really relevant to you. 
One thing I really like about this forum is that it is not a rah, rah forum. You will get Everyone's honest, and most importantly, informed opinion. There is a Lot of knowledgeable people on here. Also, since it is not specific to one style or system the base of information is very broad. 

So, to the OP. Is there anything wrong with wanting to look 'good' at whatever you are doing? Of course not. If it is important to you to walk into your dojo/dojang looking good and it is not affecting any other facets of life, go for it. IF you are leaving your dojo/dojang floor Still looking better than everyone else, that would indicate a problem. 

I interpret most of your posts as someone wanting to find out if/how to get a good deal on a uniform. Smart. Hopefully, over time spent training, you will come to realize certain things you have mentioned really are not important; even to the point that some of them have been used with negative impacts in the MA's. It rubs some of us old timers wrong and likely why you have received some of the comments. Along with what I mentioned above. 

Keep up informed on how your journey progresses.


----------



## Headhunter (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> The fact the new material is being taught to you as you progress through the ranks debunks the pseudo-philosophical notion that "belts don't mean anything."
> 
> Just as you wouldn't teach calculus to a first grader, you wouldn't teach material introduced at the brown belt level to a white belt.
> 
> ...


Lol no need, already done it. No one cared. I got asked I said I wasn't interested and that was that I carried on my training they carried on theirs no one cared.

A number of martial arts don't do belts. Boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, Mma and some Krav Maga organisations just to name a few.

Look your new to martial arts so you think belts are the be all and end all of training. Fair enough loads do. But when you get more experienced you'll see what I'm saying. The more experienced the martial artist the less they usually care about belts. Not always but in my 35 year martial art career that's mostly what I've seen.

In fact in kenpo in every belt test your given the option not to take the belt. Once your given the belt you have to make the letter L with your old belt and your new. The L stands for loyalty, longevity, love.....and lie. That means that if you feel you don't deserve the belt and don't want it you don't have to accept it. Now yes most people do take it. But I've seen people who haven't taken it. Myself included. I was in a bad head space to much stress in my life and couldn't focus went in for a test I did terrible but for whatever reason was given it (this was at an event I travelled to not my club) so when I got to that stage I stood up and didn't accept the rank and put my old belt back on.


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> Basically, a black belt shouldn't really be a target or an end goal - it's just another step on the way.



Well, this is a lifestyle change for me.  I'm not looking at this as a school that I've graduated from upon attainment of a black belt.  I've got 20 years worth of adult sedentary life, poor dieting, and alcohol to undo (I quit alcohol a week into starting karate).

That being said, after black belt, there's still checkered belt, and finally red belt.  However, however, having started at the age of 40, those aren't going to happen for me.  Basically... I'm going to keep doing this until I can't do it anymore.


----------



## Headhunter (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Well, this is a lifestyle change for me.  I'm not looking at this as a school that I've graduated from upon attainment of a black belt.  I've got 20 years worth of adult sedentary life, poor dieting, and alcohol to undo (I quit alcohol a week into starting karate).
> 
> That being said, after black belt, there's still checkered belt, and finally red belt.  However, however, having started at the age of 40, those aren't going to happen for me.  Basically... I'm going to keep doing this until I can't do it anymore.


A black belt won't make you healthy. It's your training that will do that


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Well, this is a lifestyle change for me.  I'm not looking at this as a school that I've graduated from upon attainment of a black belt.  I've got 20 years worth of adult sedentary life, poor dieting, and alcohol to undo (I quit alcohol a week into starting karate).
> 
> That being said, after black belt, there's still checkered belt, and finally red belt.  However, however, having started at the age of 40, those aren't going to happen for me.  Basically... I'm going to keep doing this until I can't do it anymore.



What art is it you're talking about with chequered and red after black?

If shorin-ryu, there is usually more than one level of black, so you'd test and not necessarily get a new belt...


----------



## jobo (Dec 14, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> A black belt won't make you healthy. It's your training that will do that


 yes it seems eminently possible at a lot, maybe most clubs to get to black belt level without being anything other than very averagely fit

in fact its a prerequisite for the business model of handing out promotions to make money, that you cant insist on anything approaching a reasonable fitness level or the money stops


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> A black belt won't make you healthy. It's your training that will do that



No, but you need to be healthy to make black belt.

If I were to have all of the knowledge of everything needed to pass the black belt test suddenly downloaded into my head right now, I could not physically complete the test at my current state of physical fitness.

Completing the gold belt test was a task for me.  This is letting me know that I need to supplement my martial arts training by hitting the gym.


----------



## Headhunter (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> No, but you need to be healthy to make black belt.
> 
> If I were to have all of the knowledge of everything needed to pass the black belt test suddenly downloaded into my head right now, I could not physically complete the test at my current state of physical fitness.
> 
> Completing the gold belt test was a task for me.  This is letting me know that I need to supplement my martial arts training by hitting the gym.


Have you seen some black belts? Loads of them are very much in the category of unhealthy


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Well, this is a lifestyle change for me. I'm not looking at this as a school that I've graduated from upon attainment of a black belt



If it's truly a lifestyle change then why does the belt matter at all?

People make a lifestyle change by going to the gym, I've never seen anyone with a black belt in stairmaster. Or they take up cycling or running - you'll be there forever waiting for your pedalling black belt.

Black belt in not eating too much chocolate?

You've said bjj wouldn't suit because it takes too long to get a black belt - what about fat loss and strength/fitness gains? Do they only occur in direct proportion to the colour of a strip of cloth tied around your waist?

You're really being quite contradictory.


Now I'm perfectly happy to say that my progression through the tkd belts means something to me, I have attached a personal importance to it.

If it took longer per belt, then so what? It'd still have the same meaning to me.

And whether it's done fast or slow has no bearing on what anyone else thinks of me.

My lack of progression through the kickboxing belts is because I haven't attached any personal importance to it - I go and train for fitness, which changes (hopefully improves) irrespective of what belt I'm wearing. In fact, I rarely actually bother putting a belt on.


----------



## jobo (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> No, but you need to be healthy to make black belt.
> 
> If I were to have all of the knowledge of everything needed to pass the black belt test suddenly downloaded into my head right now, I could not physically complete the test at my current state of physical fitness.
> 
> Completing the gold belt test was a task for me.  This is letting me know that I need to supplement my martial arts training by hitting the gym.


 well no you really don't, black belt level at some clubs requires you to be an elite athlete, with elite athlete levels of fitness.

clubs thats that hand belts out three times a year, require no more than base level fitness to reach black belt, any other requrement would cut off there money supply, as they would run out of punters very quickly.

will you get fitter doing karate( at most clubs), yes if the level of fitness you started with is abisminaly low. which to be fair sounds like you

no, if you started of with average to good fitness in the first place, you may even regress as it not challenging enough


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

Oh, and...



Rusty B said:


> Completing the gold belt test was a task for me



Doing a quick calculation, you've been training for 6 weeks?

You wouldn't be eligible to test for your first belt in our club yet - but a lot of people bemoan tkd for allowing progression too quickly.

Did your regular class not give you the same sort of challenges and also indicate that you should look to get fitter?


----------



## drop bear (Dec 14, 2019)

A lot of people do grade for belts and wear uniforms though. So they probably are important.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

jobo said:


> will you get fitter doing karate( at most clubs), yes if the level of fitness you started with is abisminaly low. which to be fair sounds like you
> 
> no, if you started of with average to good fitness in the first place



That's true to some extent.

But it depends how you look at it.

With the level of fitness I had when I started tkd I could easily have coasted through all of it and got to the same grade I'm at now with no actual improvement in my physical condition.

So the fact I do it hasn't by itself magically made me fitter.

But I never went into it thinking "doing this will make me fitter" - I went into it thinking more like "I'm going to use this to make me fitter by pushing myself".


In the same way, going to the gym won't make you stronger just by being there and lifting easy for 5 minutes - pushing yourself is what makes the difference.


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> What art is it you're talking about with chequered and red after black?
> 
> If shorin-ryu, there is usually more than one level of black, so you'd test and not necessarily get a new belt...



But there's still six dan ranks within black, so there are still milestones to look forward to hitting.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> But there's still six dan ranks within black, so there are still milestones to look forward to hitting.



And there are stripes on bjj coloured belts before black - what makes those less of a milestone than a different colour?


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> People make a lifestyle change by going to the gym, I've never seen anyone with a black belt in stairmaster. Or they take up cycling or running - you'll be there forever waiting for your pedalling black belt.
> 
> Black belt in not eating too much chocolate?
> 
> ...



I'm perfectly capable of walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time.  If I'm not physically fit enough to do anything else, I can at least do that.

Taking 12 to 15 years to make black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu isn't the issue.  It's the fact that they are only for grades before that.  I need some shorter interval milestones to look forward to hitting if I'm going to stay motivated.  Being a blue belt for five years wouldn't fulfill that.

To take your stairmaster example, sure, one may not be earning belts, but they will see the milestones that they are hitting when they look at the scale.


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> And there are stripes on bjj coloured belts before black - what makes those less of a milestone than a different colour?



As was pointed out earlier, that depends on where you're taking BJJ.  Not all of them have that.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> And there are stripes on bjj coloured belts before black - what makes those less of a milestone than a different colour?



And when you compete you can get medals which are cool as well.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> I'm perfectly capable of walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time.  If I'm not physically fit enough to do anything else, I can at least do that.
> 
> Taking 12 to 15 years to make black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu isn't the issue.  It's the fact that they are only for grades before that.  I need some shorter interval milestones to look forward to hitting if I'm going to stay motivated.  Being a blue belt for five years wouldn't fulfill that.
> 
> To take your stairmaster example, sure, one may not be earning belts, but they will see the milestones that they are hitting when they look at the scale.



But you'll get the same personal milestones while wearing a blue belt as you do with a stairmaster...

Well, you will if you put the effort in.

I sort of understand working through grades being a motivation - there are times with my 7 year old daughter that we have to chivvy her along a bit with "if you don't put the effort in you won't be able to get your next belt".

But you said you're 40 - that's almost as old as me (I started when I was 38) - do you really need the constant external validation?


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

drop bear said:


> And when you compete you can get medals which are cool as well.



I bet I couldn't, what with my huge extensive zero bjj experience...

Well, unless I get one for turning up - which is kind of the same as some belts


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

When I was eyeballing hapkido about a year ago, the dojang I was inquiring at only had two or three adult classes per week.

In THAT case, I can see it not being possible in six weeks.

There are seven adult classes per week where I train.

To answer your last question... the difference is about the same as that between morning PT in the military and taking the PT test.

That is... until today, so far.  My first class as a gold belt, and having to do kicks from the straddle leg stance.  I've got much work to do.


----------



## jobo (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> That's true to some extent.
> 
> But it depends how you look at it.
> 
> ...


 yes, but there's a limit, your still doing the same old thing over again, unless there some step up( progressive overload) in the demands your going to top out pretty quickly.

back in the olden days when i did kung fu, the training was brutal, not the fight training, that was just the usual that consisted of a lot of standing about with a bit of jumping about,the 40 minutes of circuit train we did at the beginning of class.

but no one was forcing that, lots stop as soon as it got difficult, some quite a lot before that.

so i got quite ridiculously fit whilst most walked out in the same rotund out of shape condition they walked in.

so it depends greatly on what value the instructer put on fitness as to how much of his time and your effort gets devoted to it.

art that have a competitive outlets seem to devote more to fitness than them that don't, for the simple reason that being unfitter than your opponent is a good way to lose quickly


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Have you seen some black belts? Loads of them are very much in the category of unhealthy



If I was a betting man, my money is on the majority of them letting themselves go after the fact.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> If I was a betting man, my money is on the majority of them letting themselves go after the fact.



You'd be losing that bet...


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> But you'll get the same personal milestones while wearing a blue belt as you do with a stairmaster...
> 
> Well, you will if you put the effort in.
> 
> ...



Not "external validation," but something measurable to look forward to.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

jobo said:


> yes, but there's a limit, your still doing the same old thing over again, unless there some step up( progressive overload) in the demands your going to top out pretty quickly.
> 
> back in the olden days when i did kung fu, the training was brutal, not the fight training, that was just the usual that consisted of a lot of standing about with a bit of jumping about,the 40 minutes of circuit train we did at the beginning of class.
> 
> ...



The demands aren't placed on me by the instructors, they're placed on me by me.


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> You'd be losing that bet...



The basis of my bet? I have yet to see an out-of-shape brown belt.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> When I was eyeballing hapkido about a year ago, the dojang I was inquiring at only had two or three adult classes per week.
> 
> In THAT case, I can see it not being possible in six weeks.
> 
> ...



No, it's just not possible in 6 weeks.

There's a minimum of 24 class attendances, and in addition:

There's a minimum of 3 months, whether you go twice a week or seven times a week.

You might test after 24 classes, you might do 84. Still got to clock those 3 months.

If you only go once a week, then the minimum is 6 months.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Not "external validation," but something measurable to look forward to.



Look forward to a different pair of trousers, or a faster time going up the stairs - those are something measurable to look forward to.


----------



## jobo (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> The demands aren't placed on me by the instructors, they're placed on me by me.


 that was the point i made above, but if your doing an hour of training, the same training to all intents and purposes, then you will stop getting fit, unless there an eliment of time dedicated to progressive overload or you do it on your own away from the dojo


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

jobo said:


> that was the point i made above, but if your doing an hour of training, the same training to all intents and purposes, then you will stop getting fit, unless there an eliment of time dedicated to progressive overload or you do it on your own away from the dojo



I can pretty much agree with that - but it'd take a special kind of stupid to think that staying in your comfort zone is going to yield results...

I did know someone like that though, he was overweight and his doctor recommended walking for exercise.

So he walked a mile each day, which was a challenge at first, and for a couple of months lost a bit of weight and the mile a day got easier.

After that though he was still overweight and couldn't figure out why he wasn't still losing weight - in his mind carrying on with the mile a day should've carried on shifting the weight at the same rate.


----------



## Headhunter (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> The basis of my bet? I have yet to see an out-of-shape brown belt.


Yeah because you've barely trained 2 months....

I don't know if you genuinely think you've got a lot of experience but trust me you don't. No shame in it we all start somewhere but saying your yet to see something.....well of course uou haven't


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> Look forward to a different pair of trousers, or a faster time going up the stairs - those are something measurable to look forward to.



ANYTHING but a belt, right?


----------



## drop bear (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> I bet I couldn't, what with my huge extensive zero bjj experience...
> 
> Well, unless I get one for turning up - which is kind of the same as some belts



We had a Krav instructor turn up to a white belt comp once.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> ANYTHING but a belt, right?



No, that's not what I was saying at all.

It's simply that a belt every few weeks isn't a reliable measure of performance or improvement, which is backed up by you saying yourself that you're 20 years out of shape yet still passed a test after 6 weeks.

The other thing I was saying is that a lack of a belt, or long intervals between belts, isn't indicative of lack of progression and that there are many more ways of tracking that progression if you have the self awareness to look for them.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> But you'll get the same personal milestones while wearing a blue belt as you do with a stairmaster...
> 
> Well, you will if you put the effort in.
> 
> ...



That is such a dichotomy. Say he chases external validation regardless of how people judge that?


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

drop bear said:


> We had a Krav instructor turn up to a white belt comp once.



I suppose there's a chance I wouldn't completely embarrass myself mixed in with white belts, but I'd need someone to tell me the rules...


----------



## drop bear (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> I suppose there's a chance I wouldn't completely embarrass myself mixed in with white belts, but I'd need someone to tell me the rules...



Man. We almost never know all the rules. There is a whole points system that I don't understand. I am just there as a training tool.

Especially as a white belt.

Admittedly I haven't been brave enough to wear the tie dye at a comp.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

drop bear said:


> That is such a dichotomy. Say he chases external validation regardless of how people judge that?



Then my opinion would be based upon what value and weight is placed on that external validation.

My opinion though shouldn't really affect anyone else, but I can still voice it.

I like my tkd belts, and as I've said I have no problems with saying so. I can progress physically without them (as in my kickboxing classes), but they're required to move through the syllabus, which I decided is something I want to do.

I know full well I could collect belts without much improvement though, so I don't weigh the belt itself as the only indicator of any improvement I make.


----------



## Headhunter (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> ANYTHING but a belt, right?


The problem with belts is they don't give you actual information about your skills. At one school a black belt could be equivalent of another schools yellow belts or vice versa. A lot of schools they do a test and everyone is promoted to keep the school moving along together, the only real way to get an accurate assessment of your abilities is by sparring or rolling or drilling. Like let's use bjj. When I started and i first tried to drill an arm bar it was so and clunky and had so many mistakes now when I drill it I can do it without thinking about it. when I do stand up I don't think about blocking I just naturally do it because of the time I've put in. That's how you asses your ability not the piece of fabric you wear


----------



## drop bear (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> Then my opinion would be based upon what value and weight is placed on that external validation.
> 
> My opinion though shouldn't really affect anyone else, but I can still voice it.
> 
> ...



Yeah ok. See I kind of can't I have to fight to the death to get them so I am pretty proud of mine.


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah because you've barely trained 2 months....
> 
> I don't know if you genuinely think you've got a lot of experience but trust me you don't. No shame in it we all start somewhere but saying your yet to see something.....well of course uou haven't



Here's what I DO know: each test where I train includes all of the previous belt tests before it.  So when it's time for me to test for orange belt, I take the gold belt test again plus the orange belt test.  Again... the gold belt test alone was a task for me.  I've already gotta be in better shape for that than the shape I'm in now.

Testing for black belt is an 8 hour ordeal.  If you're at my level of physical fitness... you're not gonna pull it off.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 14, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> The problem with belts is they don't give you actual information about your skills. At one school a black belt could be equivalent of another schools yellow belts or vice versa. A lot of schools they do a test and everyone is promoted to keep the school moving along together, the only real way to get an accurate assessment of your abilities is by sparring or rolling or drilling. Like let's use bjj. When I started and i first tried to drill an arm bar it was so and clunky and had so many mistakes now when I drill it I can do it without thinking about it. when I do stand up I don't think about blocking I just naturally do it because of the time I've put in. That's how you asses your ability not the piece of fabric you wear



But they do give you a direction to focus your efforts. Say I have never needed to arm bar someone to submit fools. 

I would be forced to develop my arm bar to get a belt.


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> Is simply that a belt every few weeks isn't a reliable measure of performance or improvement, which is backed up by you saying yourself that you're 20 years out of shape yet still passed a test after 6 weeks.



In my estimation, white to gold is not designed for the "exceptionally" fit.  That seems to be the case as you go up.


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

drop bear said:


> But they do give you a direction to focus your efforts. Say I have never needed to arm bar someone to submit fools.
> 
> I would be forced to develop my arm bar to get a belt.



Exactly.  What if we didn't divide our education system into grades?  Or let's say we divided it into three grades, each taking four years to complete?

The dropout rate would skyrocket.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 14, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> A black belt won't make you healthy. It's your training that will do that


In the literal sense, true. But it is mutually implied in any healthy MA environment. Why rain on a new person's parade? He/she clearly stated a very, very positive life attitude change. I am certain the OP understands anyone can go to Amazon and buy a black belt. That is not at all what they were saying.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Exactly.  What if we didn't divide our education system into grades?  Or let's say we divided it into three grades, each taking four years to complete?
> 
> The dropout rate would skyrocket.



Do you test at each year grade and not move up unless you pass that test?

With our education system, you go through primary school (approximate age 5 to 11) and then finish that level - you move through the year groups and get to the end irrespective of performance.

Then you go to secondary school (ages 11 to 16) and there are tests at the end. But you can fail those tests and still carry on.

16 to 18 is either sixth form or college - you may need to have passed the tests at 16 to take certain subjects but others have no entry requirements.

So for compulsory education, we effectively have 3 'grades' (distinct stages) taking 6, 5 and two years each.

There's not really any sort of drop out rate...


----------



## drop bear (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> Exactly.  What if we didn't divide our education system into grades?  Or let's say we divided it into three grades, each taking four years to complete?
> 
> The dropout rate would skyrocket.



So like a degree?


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 14, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Have you seen some black belts? Loads of them are very much in the category of unhealthy


Sure, but the inverse it true for a great many more wearing black belts.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> Do you test at each year grade and not move up unless you pass that test?
> 
> With our education system, you go through primary school (approximate age 5 to 11) and then finish that level - you move through the year groups and get to the end irrespective of performance.
> 
> ...


Well, that explains a lot of your posts.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 14, 2019)

Threads like this one reaffirms my belief that @Headhunter, @pdg, & @jobo are the same person. 
Come folks, just listen to yourself sometimes.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Well, that explains a lot of your posts.



Well, according to Pearson's published results, I'm a product of the 6th best education system on the global index, while you're a product of the 14th.

Maybe I'm just misunderstood...


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> Then my opinion would be based upon what value and weight is placed on that external validation.
> 
> My opinion though shouldn't really affect anyone else, but I can still voice it.
> 
> ...


So, you chose a following a syllabus that uses a belt system but bash someone else who voices their excitement about doing the same? Sad.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> Well, according to Pearson's published results, I'm a product of the 6th best education system on the global index, while you're a product of the 14th.
> 
> Maybe I'm just misunderstood...


Pearson's, a multi-national British conglomerate headquartered in London. Go figure your number is where it is. It is a statistical measurement like many, many others that is used to give the desired result.


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> So, you chose a following a syllabus that uses a belt system but bash someone else who voices their excitement about doing the same? Sad.



No, not really.

I have no problems with following a belt system, but I think you need to more fully read the thread.

Using a belt as your only or main metric for progression is a mistake - especially when it's stated that having a longer interval between belts would cause you to lose interest and quit.

If instead of 10 kup grades we had the syllabus set to only 3, but each of those 3 contained the same material as 3-4 of the current system and each took a minimum of a year to complete it would be effectively the same system to me - just having longer between fewer grades shouldn't mean there's less progress.

Or/and if the minimum time to black belt was 6 or 8 years instead of the current 4, so what? Why should that extra time make me want to quit, other than impatience?


----------



## Rusty B (Dec 14, 2019)

pdg said:


> Do you test at each year grade and not move up unless you pass that test?
> 
> With our education system, you go through primary school (approximate age 5 to 11) and then finish that level - you move through the year groups and get to the end irrespective of performance.
> 
> ...



We sort of do have examples of this having  history.happened in

For example, prior to World War II, one-room school houses for everyone aged 5 to 18 were still common.  Outside of that, the normal setup was elementary school lasting up until 8th grade, followed by high school.

Middle schools, originally known as junior high schools, didn't start to become a thing until the 1960's.

In the 1970's, far fewer people than now thought less of you for not having a high school diploma, because dropping out was so common back then.

So as we progressed from a two school model to a three school model, the dropout rates decreased. Coincidence? I think not.


----------



## Headhunter (Dec 14, 2019)

At the end of the day. You do what you're going to do. Doesn't matter to me.if the belts are so important then go for it. But all this is is advice from someone who's been doing this a long time. Don't threat about the belts. If they come great but if not just learn to enjoy what you're learning. Enjoy the journey and learn to love the material you're learning and learning how to apply it. I stopped worrying about belts fairy quick and when I did I found I was enjoying my training more. Instead of focusing on a date for a test I was just enjoying and playing with what I was learning. I was enjoying piecing together the forms I was enjoying playing with different ways to apply the technique and playing with variations I could use for it. It's the skills that will save your life if attacked not your belt. As Royce Gracie once said (partly as I know I'm not quoting this exactly right) : a black belt covers a fraction of your arrse its up to you to cover the rest


----------



## pdg (Dec 14, 2019)

Rusty B said:


> We sort of do have examples of this having  history.happened in
> 
> For example, prior to World War II, one-room school houses for everyone aged 5 to 18 were still common.  Outside of that, the normal setup was elementary school lasting up until 8th grade, followed by high school.
> 
> ...



Now over here the three school model used to be far more common, but we progressed to a two school model.

Dropping out isn't really an option as it's compulsory to be in full time education or training up to age 18 - the only legal alternative is home schooling (which counts as full time education).

Actual dropouts - those who completely stop attending an educational facility - that's a fraction of a percentage point over here. Edit to add - at least it is in the under 16s. The minimum leaving age of 18 is relatively recent and not well 'policed'.

I really don't think that the amount of schools you're expected to work through has any bearing whatsoever on dropout rates - it's much more a shift in societal expectations (and actually having the option to drop out in the first place).


----------

