# Xingyiquan Five Fists Video with some applications



## Xue Sheng (Apr 19, 2012)

Xingyiquan 5 Fists


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 19, 2012)




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## oaktree (Apr 19, 2012)

Great videos. I think alot of peope focus to much on the form and not enough time training it like a boxer. I think trying your Xingyi on focus mits, bags and two man drills really helps understand the underlying principles. I think if people really saw somethings like Black Taoist is doing more MMA fighters would train in it because it is an excellent stand up art.


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## clfsean (Apr 19, 2012)

*sigh*

Dumb smart phone...

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 19, 2012)

oaktree said:


> Great videos. I think alot of peope focus to much on the form and not enough time training it like a boxer. I think trying your Xingyi on focus mits, bags and two man drills really helps understand the underlying principles. I think if people really saw somethings like Black Taoist is doing more MMA fighters would train in it because it is an excellent stand up art.



Take this for what it is worth from a mingjen but I recently changed my view of Santi Shi training and I am now of the opinion that Santi is important in the beginning but later it is much more important to work on moving the stance and applying that to applications on a heavy bag or anything else that you can hit to see if you can maintain the structure and use the speed and power that Xingyi is historically known for


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## oaktree (Apr 20, 2012)

That is something my teacher was telling me concerning being on the back leg. You want to deliver that force forward but still be on that back leg. That is the paradox, how to generate power forward while not going overly forward? 

I think that is why structure is so important because if the structure is correct then the body mechanics allow you to generate that power. 

I think it is that tension that helps create that explosive energy like a tightly rounded spring. It is my opinion that Santi shi helps prepare the body for that torque-spring action. 

I also think you should hit some sort of bag just to feel the force you are generating, if you are doing say Paoquan and you hit a heavy bag you can feel that power and IMO have better torque and release of that power. Then again I am more of a Baqua guy my logic is circular by default :uhyeah:


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## Zenjael (Apr 20, 2012)

> That is something my teacher was telling me concerning being on the back  leg. You want to deliver that force forward but still be on that back  leg. That is the paradox, how to generate power forward while not going  overly forward?



I am not very good at xing yi. I've noticed similarities in the advance between it and kendo, at least in terms of this forward momentum and force. There is a kick I've found very effective where you step across, stomp down, let the force return up your leg, but transfer it to the leg behind. I've found I can only do this by effectively bending my knees as I step, and unbend them as I release the side-kick with the leg behind. It's like a stepping kick, but I've found it has elements of what you're talking about because of the use of a powerful stomp to generate energy for the kick.

The relevance, at least to me, is that I wonder if the transference of that kinetic energy to another limb is what enables what you are speaking about. 



> I think it is that tension that helps create that explosive energy like a  tightly rounded spring. It is my opinion that Santi shi helps prepare  the body for that torque-spring action.



I concur, it is incredible what the smallest movements can generate concerning torque. And when applied to strikes, or redirections, it's something to really marvel at. Unity of external and internal allows for incredibly... im not sure what the word is that comes to mind, but it's very awesome to behold.
I also think you should hit some sort of bag just to feel the force you  are generating, if you are doing say Paoquan and you hit a heavy bag you  can feel that power and IMO have better torque and release of that  power. Then again I am more of a Baqua guy my logic is circular by  default :uhyeah:


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## clfsean (Apr 20, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I am not very good at xing yi. I've noticed similarities in the advance between it and kendo, at least in terms of this forward momentum and force. There is a kick I've found very effective where you step across, stomp down, let the force return up your leg, but transfer it to the leg behind. I've found I can only do this by effectively bending my knees as I step, and unbend them as I release the side-kick with the leg behind. It's like a stepping kick, but I've found it has elements of what you're talking about because of the use of a powerful stomp to generate energy for the kick.
> 
> The relevance, at least to me, is that I wonder if the transference of that kinetic energy to another limb is what enables what you are speaking about.
> 
> ...



Shhhh.... grown ups are trying to talk here...


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 21, 2012)

oaktree said:


> That is something my teacher was telling me concerning being on the back leg. You want to deliver that force forward but still be on that back leg. That is the paradox, how to generate power forward while not going overly forward?



Paradoxical yes but not really all that different than Taijiquan; the power comes from the root and is directed by the waist.



oaktree said:


> I think that is why structure is so important because if the structure is correct then the body mechanics allow you to generate that power.



Exactly



oaktree said:


> I think it is that tension that helps create that explosive energy like a tightly rounded spring. It is my opinion that Santi shi helps prepare the body for that torque-spring action.



I look at it more like a battery waiting to discharge, I don&#8217;t look at it as tension, although I would say that in some of the forms in motion you get that tightly wound spring thing



oaktree said:


> I also think you should hit some sort of bag just to feel the force you are generating, if you are doing say Paoquan and you hit a heavy bag you can feel that power and IMO have better torque and release of that power.



Completely agree



oaktree said:


> Then again I am more of a Baqua guy my logic is circular by default



Yeah I know&#8230;.but I try not to hold it against you


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 21, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I am not very good at xing yi. I've noticed similarities in the advance between it and kendo, at least in terms of this forward momentum and force. There is a kick I've found very effective where you step across, stomp down, let the force return up your leg, but transfer it to the leg behind. I've found I can only do this by effectively bending my knees as I step, and unbend them as I release the side-kick with the leg behind. It's like a stepping kick, but I've found it has elements of what you're talking about because of the use of a powerful stomp to generate energy for the kick.
> 
> The relevance, at least to me, is that I wonder if the transference of that kinetic energy to another limb is what enables what you are speaking about.



Xingyi kicks are basically the shortest distance between to point is a straight line with specific targets and not all done while moving and I have not seen a cross step in Wuxingquan for the use of a kick and I also have not seen a leg stomp in association with a kick in Xingyi either but I have seen it used in other styles.
And there is use of a foot stomp to help generate power by some in Xingyiquan but it depends on lineage and or style


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## mograph (Apr 21, 2012)

oaktree said:


> That is something my teacher was telling me concerning being on the back leg. You want to deliver that force forward but still be on that back leg. That is the paradox, how to generate power forward while not going overly forward?


I think that we should expand outward, rather than shift the center of gravity (CG) forward. This expansion would allow us to keep weight on the back foot. The expansion would require that we be relaxed or contracted before we expand, otherwise there's no expansion. 

I also think that shifting the CG forward would assume that we have no internal expansion/springing/uncoiling to do: we would just throw our mass (as an unchanging unit) forward. I don't think Xingyi tries to do that.


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## oaktree (Apr 21, 2012)

Hey Xue,
 I agree that there is similarities with Xingyiquan and Taijiquan. Personally before I move forward in Xingyiquan I turn backwards to back in something that Chen Taijiquan does.

  I also agree that discharge,spring force,cocked gun,sling stretch all can describe the action Xingyiquan takes.


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## oaktree (Apr 21, 2012)

Hi Morphgraph,
There is defintely an outward motion in the five element fist. I don't think there is a shift in the center of gravity as you move forward, IMO a shift of center of gravity would prevent the whole body moving at once, so moving forward your Dan tian(center of gravity) is moving forward as well. 

The movement would shift into the lead leg as the other leg comes forward which prevents any 50/50 on the legs and still leaves the 70/30 rule or whatever unequal equation,
Robert Smith mentions a 55/45 thats a weird number. 

My teacher like to remind us of the 6:9 rule saying you should always have room to change, I agree that Xingyiquan is not to throw your mass at someone causing you to get hit or loose balance and structure.


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## oaktree (Apr 21, 2012)

Hey Xue about kicks. The cross step you are talking about Hengquan? I have seen my teacher perform Hengquan normally and after the rear foot has touched the ground he used it to kick out. What he was saying regarding that is a step can be used as a kick or a kick can be used as a step. It is not traditionally part of our Xingyiquan five element form but 
 my teacher was showing possible applications with it. 

As for foot stomp to generate power we don't use it nor was it taught to me but I could see were someone might use it, I'd have to ask my teacher more about it.
 Alot of foot stomping the ground we have in Chen Taijiquan or as Chen Xiaowang calls it punching the ground.:lol:


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 21, 2012)

oaktree said:


> Hey Xue about kicks. The cross step you are talking about Hengquan? I have seen my teacher perform Hengquan normally and after the rear foot has touched the ground he used it to kick out. What he was saying regarding that is a step can be used as a kick or a kick can be used as a step. It is not traditionally part of our Xingyiquan five element form but
> my teacher was showing possible applications with it.



What I have been shown; traditionally there is a cross step in Hebei Bengquan after the turn and after a kick. As a matter of fact the kick leads to the cross step



oaktree said:


> As for foot stomp to generate power we don't use it nor was it taught to me but I could see were someone might use it, I'd have to ask my teacher more about it.



I have been taught the rear foot stomp only be 1 of the three people I have trained with and his background was mostly contemporary Wushu and his Xingyiquan was not that good. My third teacher did not emphasis the rear foot much at all other than the main stance was a back stance. He did however have strikes in the transition from say left Santi to right and that was in a forward stance. And of the 3 his seemed to be most applicable to fighting. Basically it could hit you at any point while moving



oaktree said:


> Alot of foot stomping the ground we have in Chen Taijiquan or as Chen Xiaowang calls it punching the ground.:lol:



Chen Zhenglei crushes stones with that thing... and after Mrs Chen Zhenglei told me that I decided I never EVER wanted him to step on my foot


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## mograph (Apr 22, 2012)

oaktree said:


> Robert Smith mentions a 55/45 thats a weird number.


Oaktree, I'm just guessing, but Smith may mean "balanced, plus a little bit." Weighting too much on the back may cause one to commit too much to the back foot, preventing a backwards step if needed. 

If I taught, I would probably say "in general, keep a lively balance of ounces. Don't commit pounds until you are ready, but when you choose to commit, find the right amount that works for the situation." Maybe that's why I don't teach. Too wordy.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 22, 2012)

You might be surprised how fast you can move backwards and forwards form a proper Santi Shi Back stance that is abot 70/30


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