# How important is standing meditation to someone's tai chi practice?



## kubrick

"Standing-on-stake is the highest principle, the greatest secret of martial arts"- Paul Dong in his book Empty Force

How important do you think standing meditation is? I am a beginner (one year Yang style and just started Wu style) and I would like to introduce a meditative aspect to my tai chi. I asked my instructor about standing meditation and he was rather dismissive about its importance. This contradicts many of the books I have read, which express sentiments more like the quote above.

So I don't really understand how to do standing meditation, or why to do standing meditation. I would appreciate any thoughts you guys have. Thanks


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## seasoned

It is all about the mind, and the effect it has on our body. The mind controls our body, and outside influence, controls an unconditioned mind. We need to first condition our mind under calm situations and then advance to a more turbulent atmosphere, while still maintaining that tranquil state. In other words learn to chill out. J


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## Formosa Neijia

kubrick said:


> "Standing-on-stake is the highest principle, the greatest secret of martial arts"- Paul Dong in his book Empty Force
> 
> How important do you think standing meditation is? I am a beginner (one year Yang style and just started Wu style) and I would like to introduce a meditative aspect to my tai chi. I asked my instructor about standing meditation and he was rather dismissive about its importance. This contradicts many of the books I have read, which express sentiments more like the quote above.
> 
> So I don't really understand how to do standing meditation, or why to do standing meditation. I would appreciate any thoughts you guys have. Thanks



It can be important but some people overemphasize it. If you're doing the taijiquan in a certain way already, then standing is redundant. 

Standing itself is emphasized because it's easy to teach and gets people to slow down. It's good for that.

But many martial arts are based on movement and standing too much will negatively affect your movement skills. 

The bottom line is to pay attention to how it's used in your lineage. If it's a major point, then spend time doing it. If it isn't, then some other part of the system or taiji paradigm may be used in place of it. So if you do a lot of standing when your instructor feels it isn't important, then you may need to listen to his advice instead. He may want you to work on something else or may have an equivalent training that you'll miss.


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## kubrick

Formosa Neijia said:


> The bottom line is to pay attention to how it's used in your lineage ...  if you do a lot of standing when your instructor feels it isn't important, then you may need to listen to his advice instead. He may want you to work on something else or may have an equivalent training that you'll miss.



I think that is exactly the case. Thanks for your replies.


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## ggg214

standing stake is one way to train your body structure, to strong your low part of your body, such as your hips, your waist, your legs.
meditation in standing stake is thought to make the training more effective. 
taiji, is also thought as a moving standing-stake. every movement is a single standing-on-stake.


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## kubrick

ggg214 said:


> taiji, is also thought as a moving standing-stake. every movement is a single standing-on-stake.



Thanks. How should I work towards this? Do I just keep doing the form over and over?


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## Formosa Neijia

Quote:
 	 	 		 			 				 					Originally Posted by *ggg214* 

 
_taiji, is also thought as a moving standing-stake. every movement is a single standing-on-stake._



kubrick said:


> Thanks. How should I work towards this? Do I just keep doing the form over and over?



I would be a bit careful with that. Some styles of taiji talk about every movement being like single standing on stake. But others describe it differently.

Again, talk to your teacher about this. If your style doesn't emphasize this then you're about to go off on a tangent that will put you at odds with your style. You could end up missing what your style and teacher have to teach. 

Generic advice is never as good as specific if it gets you off rack.


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## mograph

With all due respect, do any of you guys actually _do_ Zhan Zhuang?


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## ggg214

mograph said:


> With all due respect, do any of you guys actually _do_ Zhan Zhuang?


 
me!
in my two and a half years of training, the biggest part of my training is zhan zhuang. but now i have quit it, just because taiji is too complilcated for a beginner of CMA. and i find a great teacher in another style of CMA.


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## ggg214

i said each movement of taiji form is a single zhan zhuang, because i have known that in old days of taiji training, teachers taught their disciples in this way: each movement had six stops, each stop must stay still in a time as 3-6 breathes.  and i know a person near my place has trained in this way.he took at least one or two years to complete learning one form of taiji.


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## Formosa Neijia

ggg214 said:


> i said each movement of taiji form is a single zhan zhuang, because i have known that in old days of taiji training, teachers taught their disciples in this way: each movement had six stops, each stop must stay still in a time as 3-6 breathes.  and i know a person near my place has trained in this way.he took at least one or two years to complete learning one form of taiji.



Yes, and it's a legitimate way of training. But not everyone does this. For teachers that emphasize movement, that way of training will be detrimental to the process. 

The taiji form starts with "kai taiji" or opening taiji for a reason. You start the form with stillness and then move through the various expresssions of yin and yang in the form before you end it again with stillness. That's why all taiji forms also end with "he taiji" or closing taiji. 

If you're sticking a lot of stopping points into the form, then you're impeding the flow. Some styles may teach that temporarily to build skills but IMO it eventually has to be let go.


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## Tai G

Formosa Neijia said:


> Some styles may teach that temporarily to build skills but IMO it eventually has to be let go.


 
I think that while learning a form this is done to build up lots of leg strength and learn to root. Once you've been studying awhile and have a solid root, move on. Of course in our tradition there is plenty of silk reeling excercise which replaces this way of training forms, accomplishing the same goal.
We begin every class with some light qigong/stretching, move into 5 mins of zhan zhuang ( standing ) and then silk reeling, and then everyone breaks up into their various forms. We always close class with another 5 mins of zhan zhuang.


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## mograph

Five minutes isn't enough. Maybe it calms the practitioner, but for real physical changes, do it for an hour: 15 minutes in each of four positions.

Now _that's_ Zhan Zhuang.


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## mograph

Formosa Neijia said:


> But many martial arts are based on movement and standing too much will negatively affect your movement skills.



I respectfully disagree, Formosa Neijia. If you do Zhan Zhuang long enough (1 hour a week for two years, at least) your stamina will increase. It has helped my squash game, to a point where I surprise much younger players with my "jets", or ability to run down difficult shots. My newfound stamina is nowhere near what it would be if I didn't do Zhan Zhuang. I'll increase the time standing and see what happens.

Regarding movement, an important aspect of Zhan Zhuang is visualization. Here, try this: hold both hands in front of you, facing each other as if holding a basketball. Slowly move the hands closer, then farther apart. Make the amplitude (movement) maybe three inches, frequency maybe 1 second. Gradually speed up the frequency to maybe 1/3 to 1/4 second, and let the amplitude slowly shrink to the smallest distance you can feel, then keep going. Eventually you might feel a very slight vibration or humming feeling in your hands. 

This is part of the theory of Yiquan. The humming feeling resolves the rooted/dynamic debate: root for stability or be loose for quick movement? In Yiquan, with enough Zhan Zhuang and force-testing, you should be able to move quite quickly and easily, yet be rooted to deliver power. Once I get there, I'll get back to you.

It may be that the only teachers who recommend Zhan Zhuang teach Yiquan -- that may explain why it hasn't been widely adopted by teachers of other arts. But I'd say that if you can find a Yiquan teacher, he/she may open your eyes to the possibilities of Zhan Zhuang. 

My point is: try it for a few months, but for 45 minutes to an hour: four postures. Check Lam Kam Chuen's _Way of Power_ book for the beginning postures. Stick it out and see for yourself.


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## ggg214

Formosa Neijia said:


> Yes, and it's a legitimate way of training. But not everyone does this. For teachers that emphasize movement, that way of training will be detrimental to the process.
> 
> The taiji form starts with "kai taiji" or opening taiji for a reason. You start the form with stillness and then move through the various expresssions of yin and yang in the form before you end it again with stillness. That's why all taiji forms also end with "he taiji" or closing taiji.
> 
> If you're sticking a lot of stopping points into the form, then you're impeding the flow. Some styles may teach that temporarily to build skills but IMO it eventually has to be let go.


 
this kind of training is aiming to gain a precise body structure in every movement. in CMA, power comes from the whole body, not parts of body. it requires that every second in your movement, you need your body in a way that it can burst your whole body's trength into your target. 
as you said, this stops train can inped the flow of the form. it's only for building foundation of taiji kung fu.


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## Formosa Neijia

mograph said:


> I respectfully disagree, Formosa Neijia. If you do Zhan Zhuang long enough (1 hour a week for two years, at least) your stamina will increase. It has helped my squash game, to a point where I surprise much younger players with my "jets", or ability to run down difficult shots. My newfound stamina is nowhere near what it would be if I didn't do Zhan Zhuang. I'll increase the time standing and see what happens.
> 
> Regarding movement, an important aspect of Zhan Zhuang is visualization. Here, try this: hold both hands in front of you, facing each other as if holding a basketball. Slowly move the hands closer, then farther apart. Make the amplitude (movement) maybe three inches, frequency maybe 1 second. Gradually speed up the frequency to maybe 1/3 to 1/4 second, and let the amplitude slowly shrink to the smallest distance you can feel, then keep going. Eventually you might feel a very slight vibration or humming feeling in your hands.
> 
> This is part of the theory of Yiquan. The humming feeling resolves the rooted/dynamic debate: root for stability or be loose for quick movement? In Yiquan, with enough Zhan Zhuang and force-testing, you should be able to move quite quickly and easily, yet be rooted to deliver power. Once I get there, I'll get back to you.
> 
> It may be that the only teachers who recommend Zhan Zhuang teach Yiquan -- that may explain why it hasn't been widely adopted by teachers of other arts. But I'd say that if you can find a Yiquan teacher, he/she may open your eyes to the possibilities of Zhan Zhuang.
> 
> My point is: try it for a few months, but for 45 minutes to an hour: four postures. Check Lam Kam Chuen's _Way of Power_ book for the beginning postures. Stick it out and see for yourself.



That's fine. And you've presented an yiquan point of view very well. But my training is different.

For one, standing for any length of time can improve your stamina, especially if you're de-conditioned. But it doesn't train your movement skills. To gain those skills, you'll have to practice moving and a lot of it. Frankly speaking, I've never seen an yiquan person that impressed me with their movement. Just far too much time spent standing. Shili and fali, etc. IMO don't prepare someone as well as something like baguazhang. BGZ and taijiquan (at least as I do it) use it a moving root, not a fixed root. The trainings are similar but different. 

Second, I don't use visualizations when standing or sitting. I think they're an impediment to progress. You're adding another layer of illusion when you should be stripping away things. BTW I don't need the visualization to feel anything. I can feel my qi largely because I have worked in the exact opposite direction -- stripping away what was unnecessary.

I think there's room for all these approaches. So how you train is fine if it gets you what you want. But again, standing IMO is promoted beyond it's usefulness. It's a good tool but not the be-all, end-all it gets touted as.


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## mograph

Formosa Neijia, the visualizations, like many training methods, are meant to be dropped once the student can feel the new sensations. They provide a bridge. Once crossed, the bridge is no longer needed. Nobody expects someone to fight while imagining they are holding balls in water.

Some may tout Zhan Zhuang as a be-all and end-all, but I don't. I believe it is a valuable supplement to any kind of martial training.

I'm sorry, but dismissing Zhan Zhuang without actually having given it a chance first-hand (standing past the point of discomfort) is like dismissing Taijiquan because it's practiced slowly.


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## Xue Sheng

I was going to stay out of this and I will likely regret getting into it al all but here goes

The importance of standing meditation to taijiquan, if you are talking ONLY Zhan Zhuang depends on your goal, your style and your Sifu. My Sifu does not place a whole lot of importance on it but he does say it is a good thing if you want to do it. But yet I believe Yang Chengfu placed a lot of importance on Wuji over things like Zhan Zhuang, but I have to admit I am not 100% sure about that one.

However Standing Meditation is not only Zhan Zhuang in Taijiquan. Chen style appears to like standing in various taiji postures as well as Zhan Zhuang and then Chan Si Jin (which is not standing). My Sifu (Yang style) puts it this way; If your goal is what many have today of health and relaxation standing in a posture is not important at all. However if your goal is martial arts it is very important. It teaches you proper alignment, power flow, proper relaxation in the form and unifies movement.

Everyone will have there own view of standing based on their Sifu and experience and likely they will not all match. 

For me I rather enjoy Zhan Zhaung and I did learn a few things from it as far as flow of energy form one part of the body to the other and I was able to apply that to my taiji but to be honest I get more out of doing the long form really really slow. But if you are going to train Zhan Zhuang and actually want to gain anything from it you are going to be standing there for at least 20 minutes more like 30 or greater. And before it is said, I don&#8217;t do Yiquan but I did do Xingyiquan and yes that is a rather Xingyiquan point of view. But even xingyiquan places more importance on Santi Shi over Zhan Zhaung. But this view of Zhan Zhaung is what worked for me&#8230;..your mileage may vary


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## mograph

Xue Sheng said:


> I was going to stay out of this and I will likely regret getting into it al all but here goes



I was wondering where you were ... 



Xue Sheng said:


> For me I rather enjoy Zhan Zhaung and I did learn a few things from it as far as flow of energy form one part of the body to the other and I was able to apply that to my taiji but to be honest I get more out of doing the long form really really slow. But if you are going to train Zhan Zhuang and actually want to gain anything from it you are going to be standing there for at least 20 minutes more like 30 or greater. And before it is said, I dont do Yiquan but I did do Xingyiquan and yes that is a rather Xingyiquan point of view. But even xingyiquan places more importance on Santi Shi over Zhan Zhaung. But this view of Zhan Zhaung is what worked for me..your mileage may vary



I've appreciated your points of view as well as Formosa Neijia's over time, and this thread is no exception. I'm glad you've experienced it, and I'm also glad that you can get more out of doing the long form very slow. As for a Xingyiquan point of view, I train in the Han tradition of Yiquan, which is Xingyi based, so I think I understand where you're coming from. 

However, from the other comments I've read, I was getting the impression that people were commenting on standing based on little or no experience with it, and as anyone who has done it for 30 minutes or greater can tell you, its benefits should not be judged by visual inspection or theoretical extrapolation such as "standing can only build a static root". 

I wasn't saying that it's a be-all and end-all. Just "if you haven't tried it, don't knock it." That's all.


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> I've appreciated your points of view as well as Formosa Neijia's over time, and this thread is no exception. I'm glad you've experienced it, and I'm also glad that you can get more out of doing the long form very slow. As for a Xingyiquan point of view, I train in the Han tradition of Yiquan, which is Xingyi based, so I think I understand where you're coming from.


 
I have to add something as it applies to Zhan Zhuang and the doing the long form slowly. 

I cannot be certain however that what I am getting out of doing the long form slowly does not have its root in Zhan Zhuang training and it could just be that it was my Zhan Zhuang that opened a door to allow me to gain more from my long form. I have no way of knowing this since it was after my most recent stint with Zhan Zhuang I had some rather great things occur when I just let things flow and the long form went form about 18 minutes to 30. But I was also doing a lot of santi shi as well so who knows. Could be Zhan Zhuang, could be Santi Shi, could be slowing the long form down, could be all 3 or any combination or none.



mograph said:


> However, from the other comments I've read, I was getting the impression that people were commenting on standing based on little or no experience with it, and as anyone who has done it for 30 minutes or greater can tell you, its benefits should not be judged by visual inspection or theoretical extrapolation such as "standing can only build a static root".
> 
> I wasn't saying that it's a be-all and end-all. Just "if you haven't tried it, don't knock it." That's all.


 
What can I say stance training and standing isn't for everyone, but I like it


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## East Winds

I have to agree with all three points of view expressed on this thread (mograph, Formosa Neija and Xue Sheng) but perhaps more with mograph. I have practiced Zhan Zhuang now for almost 15 years and find it benefits my Taiji practise immensly, as well as my general health. (I have also indulged in Yi Chuan with Karel Koskuba and Da Chen Chuan (the martial aspect of Zhan Zhuang) with Master Lam Kam Chuen). I agree with the point that less than 20 minutes standing is worthless and up to one hour is the norm. However starting with five minutes and working upwards is OK. I also agree that it is possible to select a posture from the taij form and use it as a Zhan Zhuang stance. I don't advocate doing the form and stopping to hold a stance though. Zhan Zhuang is an excellent introduction to developing an awareness of the energy/jin aspects of taijiquan and I would reccomend it wholeheartedly to students of taijiquan. 

very besat wishes


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:


> . I don't advocate doing the form and stopping to hold a stance though.


 
on the oft chance this is a response to what I wrote I should clarify that I am not saying nor is my sifu saying stop the form to hold the stance. The idea is to pick one and stand in it.


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## Formosa Neijia

mograph said:


> I'm sorry, but dismissing Zhan Zhuang without actually having given it a chance first-hand (standing past the point of discomfort) is like dismissing Taijiquan because it's practiced slowly.



LOL. I've practiced standing for years. But hey, make whatever assumptions you want. 

I'm not dismissing it. Just pointing out it's weaknesses.


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## Formosa Neijia

Xue Sheng said:


> But if you are going to train Zhan Zhuang and actually want to gain anything from it you are going to be standing there for at least 20 minutes more like 30 or greater. ... But this view of Zhan Zhaung is what worked for me..your mileage may vary



Fair enough. And this is a fairly standard view, so you're not alone in holding it. 

All I will say is that if you're doing it the way I was taught, 5 minutes would be enough and few people would likely be able to do that. Time, after all, is only one measurement. There are many others.


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## Xue Sheng

Formosa Neijia said:


> Fair enough. And this is a fairly standard view, so you're not alone in holding it.
> 
> All I will say is that if you're doing it the way I was taught, 5 minutes would be enough and few people would likely be able to do that. Time, after all, is only one measurement. There are many others.


 
Fair enough...like I said&#8230;..your mileage may vary :asian:


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## DaleDugas

standing is a serious part of all internal martial arts.

In Jiulong Baguazhang we start each class with Quiet Sitting, then do our Kai Men Dao Yin to open up the joints and warm up the body.

We then do what we term as Power Standing.  In the beginning you stand there in Wuji Bu (Void Stance: with feet at hip width and knees unlocked), but as time progresses and the student advanced you take all the concepts and principles learned motionless and begin to walk.  then you begin to circle and then after a period of time you circle walk doing all that you learned to manifest in standing.

Standing to just stand is a waste of training time and needs to be seriously re evaluated if the teacher is just having you stand there without teaching you what to do internally.  way too many people have no clue about real standing and it shows when anyone just tells you to just stand.

Standing is not going to teach you to be a better fighter.  It will teach you a lot about your structure, and how your structure related to you being upright from the ground.  

Fighting and sparring with your training partners teaches you to be a better fighter.


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## mograph

Formosa Neijia said:


> LOL. I've practiced standing for years. But hey, make whatever assumptions you want.
> 
> I'm not dismissing it. Just pointing out it's weaknesses.



When you stand, how long do you stand without a break?


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## DaleDugas

standing is the beginning.

You need to take all that is learned from being motionless and apply it when you are moving.

It is very hard to do.

Yiquan is not only about standing.

Standing is learning to cultivate with less interference from movement.

Once you can fill, expand and sung you then move on to doing these things with movement.

Again standing just for standing sake is a waste of time.


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## Formosa Neijia

mograph said:


> When you stand, how long do you stand without a break?



Me? I stand for 25 hours a day. 

Sorry but I'm not going to put my training up here for you to review. You can believe or train whatever you want. It doesn't bother me.

As I've already said a least twice, standing practice is good. It _might_ even be necessary at the beginning. But like every other piece of training out there, it has limitations. It isn't everything. If someone can't see that, then that's fine with me.

Along with what Dale just said, I would add that standing for time is a waste of time. You may as well just do stance training. *Internal martial arts shouldn't be a penis measuring contest about who can stand the longest*. 

BTW, *this is what makes the standing absolutely worthless*. Using an external measurement like how long or how low, etc. means there isn't much going on internally in the practice. That's fine for beginners, but there's much more to that practice than that.

I highly recommend reading this:
http://formosaneijia.com/2008/ma-penis-measuring-contests/


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## Xue Sheng

You know I have been thinking about this standing and length of time in standing thing and basically I have come up with the argument is pointless. 

I mean no offense to anyone but I do honestly feel that quality here is better than quantity. I do not stand in Zhan Zhuang at all these days, I focus on form and the postures of that form, but if I look at when I was standing in Zhan Zhuang or even Santi Shi for that matter, in the beginning it was rather difficult to hold any of the postures that can be used as Zhan Zhuang or santi for very long. For me I could stand in Zhan Zhuang longer than Santi as first because to be honest the early stages of santi hurt, a lot, but after awhile you find you can stand longer and longer. It is like my Taiji, some people say the long form at 18 minutes is fine some say 20 some (me) like 30 minutes. But there are times when I go with the flow and I find it only took my 15. It all depends on how focused I am. 30 minutes is great if you are focused but if most of that is thinking about what you had for supper then it is pointless and 15 minutes is a bit short but if you are intensely focused it is quite amazing. However if that 15 minutes is thinking about how boring this is then again it is pointless.

But back to Zhan Zhuang. I was first shown this (officially) by my Xingyiquan teacher who felt it was rather important and I was later show Zhan Zhuang by Chen Zhenglei who to be honest I am not exactly sure how much importance he places on it and then lastly by my Yang Sifu who places little importance on it at all. He has other things standing and qigong he feels are much more important. I have also read and followed and liked the book by Lam Kam Chuen on standing. But in the beginning it took me a while to concentrate and actually get beyond the did I leave the oven on kind of thoughts that would pop into my head and also getting by the Hey my shoulders hurt and of course the damn my legs are tired thoughts. This was later followed by wow what is that feeling and the so to get force from point A to point B all I need to do is thatCOOL!! and then later it became just standing. In the beginning (and all of this by the way is just me I am not saying that anyone else needs to do this or will be the same) it took a REAL long time to get to someplace I thought I should be and after a while it took less and less time to get there. I was eventually standing for about 30 minutes in Zhan Zhuang not because I felt I needed it but because I truly enjoyed it. Could I have stood for 5 minutes, at that point, and got the same results? Well to be honest I dont know but I imagine it is possible but I would always recommend that people get to a good 30 minutes if for nothing else the experience of it. But then I have not trained every possible variation of Zhan Zhuang and I do know from experience that things by the same name in CMA are not all alike. 

But in retrospect Chen Zhenglei had it as part of Chan Si Jin and a few other Chen Qigong forms and it was not long, I believe about 10 minutes, but then he did not really put any time constraint on it. And a set of VCDs I got of Chen Xiaowang also trained Zhan Zhuang as part of Chan Si Jin and it was also not all that long. But I do believe he said something about as you train it will get longer. As for Santi, I never got past 20 minutes per side, I feel that I learned a lot form it but eventually it fell victim to time, I just dont have the time to do it all. 

The whole point of this, I guess, is whatever works for you


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## mograph

It's not just about time spent standing. 

Depending on how we spend our day, there are certain small physical violations we do to our bodies, such as hunching shoulders, tightening our lower back and so on. These show up as tension in the body that can be relieved by Zhan Zhuang. The amount of time it takes to relieve these tensions varies from individual to individual. However, in my experience, it takes about ten minutes to relieve the shoulders, ten for the arms, ten for the back, ten for the legs ... it's different every time. Once I get past that point though, I find a kind of _satori_, or a strange turning sensation, or other physical sensations. 

Now if a person can get those sensations in five minutes of standing, then he's a fortunate individual. But if he stood longer, who knows what he might experience?

Anyway, thanks for the forum, and sorry if I offended anyone.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

I wanted to speak about my experience with Zhan Zhuang.

 I first learned it as a Qigong exercise the teaching was just stand there.
Of course just standing there is a waste of time and looking back at it now I think my teacher at that point was either not knowledgable on the subject or trying to say it will come in time.

When I did practice Yiquan rooting,relaxing and so on started to take shape. As my teacher in Yiquan said "Yiquan will help you in other arts as well"

I then got more into Zhan Zhuang when I studied in Wang shu jins linerage. He practiced it often and would pause from circle walking to do it.  Thru Xingyi santi and Zhan Zhuang practice I feel lighter,flexible,relaxed,rooted,sunk,loose and open. 

When I do not see my teacher for a while he sometimes remarks how my form looks good despite having not seen him to correct me. Of course practicing the form plays a part in this but I also told him I practice Zhan Zhuang and Santi more than form in which he smiled. 
IMO if you can move in stillness(internally) and be still in movement(internally) I think it greatly helps your connected whole in performing the forms.


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## Formosa Neijia

mograph said:


> It's not just about time spent standing.
> 
> Depending on how we spend our day, there are certain small physical violations we do to our bodies, such as hunching shoulders, tightening our lower back and so on. These show up as tension in the body that can be relieved by Zhan Zhuang. The amount of time it takes to relieve these tensions varies from individual to individual. However, in my experience, it takes about ten minutes to relieve the shoulders, ten for the arms, ten for the back, ten for the legs ... it's different every time. Once I get past that point though, I find a kind of _satori_, or a strange turning sensation, or other physical sensations.
> 
> Now if a person can get those sensations in five minutes of standing, then he's a fortunate individual. But if he stood longer, who knows what he might experience?
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the forum, and sorry if I offended anyone.



No offense taken. I just wanted to get my point across. Sorry to use a 2x4. 

I see what you're saying but some of us get the postural benefits from other practices or awareness. For example, bring the practice and awareness from training into your everyday life by realizing when you're holding your body in a wrong position and correct accordingly. Try not to have bad posture as much as you can throughout the day and you'll minimize spending time in zhanzhuang correcting this stuff. See what I mean?

But it's good IMO that you're focusing on something other than time. 

So extend that thinking: as your posture improves, what will you spend your time in zhanzhuang doing? 

Not to offend anyone so please don't take it that way but think of this: *what is the point of standing? What are you trying to develop?*

The length of time spent, the visualizations, all those things are crutches towards _something_. What is that something? What happens when you take the crutches away?

When you figure that out and start working directly instead of tangentially on the goal, then progress comes much faster.


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## mograph

Formosa Neijia said:


> For example, bring the practice and awareness from training into your everyday life by realizing when you're holding your body in a wrong position and correct accordingly.



Formosa Neijia, I agree entirely. I use Zhan Zhuang (ZZ) to help improve my day-to-day posture as well as the way I interact with forces (doors, lifting, sports) as often as possible.


Formosa Neijia said:


> So extend that thinking: as your posture improves, what will you spend your time in zhanzhuang doing?



I think I see where you're going: as the posture improves ... the role of ZZ diminishes. The logical conclusion would then be that ZZ would eventually serve no purpose.  Do read on, though.



Formosa Neijia said:


> Not to offend anyone so please don't take it that way but think of this: *what is the point of standing? What are you trying to develop?*


No offense taken -- that's a very good question. I'll try to answer to the best of my own experience: regarding ZZ to correct the daily indignities of working at a computer and waking up in a middle-aged body, I think I'll always need it to fix myself. Also, I've found that ZZ increases my stamina and energy where, at the very least, I feel better after doing it.

I suppose that's the crux of it. I feel better after doing it. It works for now.

Regarding working towards something, I see it as more of a _direction_ than a goal -- like a vector, with its direction being more energy and a feeling of well-being, its magnitude being the frequency and quality of practice. 



Formosa Neijia said:


> The length of time spent, the visualizations, all those things are crutches towards _something_. What is that something? What happens when you take the crutches away?



Another good question, one which has occurred to me on a number of occasions. After some reflection, I don't see them as crutches, but bridges. As you know, certain teaching methods could be looked at as creating bridges between "don't know" and "know". The student is taught them with the understanding that they would rely on them less and less, or possibly reach an epiphany where they can access the energy naturally and spontaneously without the bridges. Some people don't need those bridges on their path. Some do.



Formosa Neijia said:


> When you figure that out and start working directly instead of tangentially on the goal, then progress comes much faster.



In my opinion, "directly" isn't absolute -- it's relative. Each student has his or her own paths to knowledge, based on personal experience, tendencies, habits, values and world view. The methods I've described don't work for everybody -- some require closer links between "don't know" and "know". The path may be longer, but the links are closer. To each his own. 

Thanks for the discussion. I look forward to more.


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