# Ninja Forum FAQ:



## Bob Hubbard

*Ninja Forum FAQ:*

*Question*:
How many organizations are there and how are they organized (Who's at the top, etc)

*Answer*: (Jay Bell)
There are three main organizations. The Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.

The Bujinkan is headed by Hatsumi sensei. The Genbukan, Shoto Tanemura and Jinenkan Unsui Manaka. They were both longtime senior students of Hatsumi sensei and broke away to do their own thing.

Shoto Tanemura went on to study with other teaches of Takamatsu sensei and funneling his knowledge into the Genbukan. Manaka sensei developed what he knew into Jinenkan. And developed a weapon based art called Jinen ryu that contains methods and ideas that aren't found in other bujutsu schools.

The Jinenkan was formed in 94, if memory serves. It's teachings from Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, Shinden Fudo ryu, Togakure ryu and Kukishin ryu...and also the Jinen ryu which Manaka sensei developed.

See http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=369 for more info.

===

*Question*:
Where is a detailed description of Ninjutsu?

*Answer*:
The famous Rec.Martial-Arts FAQ contains a lot of good information
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~mcweigel/rmafaq/rmafaq3.html#16.ninjutsu

===

*Question*:
Can someone tell me what an X-kan is?

*Answer*: (tmanifold)
X-kan is a term used to reffer to the three traditional style ninjutsu organizations. They are The BujinKan, Genbukan and JinenKan. They are all decended from the Bujinkan organization of Hatsumi Sensei.

===

*Question*:
How do these schools differ? What is the typical thought about ToShinDo and Master Hayes? How is Genbukan different from Bujinkan?

*Answer*: (Pyros)
Bujinkan 
- a curriculum of combination of nine traditions by Hatsumi
- has some guidelines what and how to teach the lower ranks but the instructors can use their discretion
- goes from drilling the basic kihon kata fast into training all kinds of applications

Genbukan
- a curriculum taught by Tanemura
- has a strict belt to belt rank system with exact syllabys for all ranks
- the combo learned from Hatsumi with some minor outside influences too
- has actually two separate programs: ninpo bugei and kokusai jujutsu

Jinenkan
- a combined curriculum of six traditions by Manaka (learned them from Hatsumi)
- has a very strict belt to belt rank system
- focuses on perfecting the basic kihon kata before going for applications

ToShinDo
- a curriculum created and taught by Hayes
- techniques based on what Hayes learned at Bujinkan
- whole syllabus has been modernized, defences are trained against modern boxer-type punches and so on instead of traditional lunge punches, and so on.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8890

====

*Question*:
What is the difference between NinjUtsu and NinjItsu?

*Answer*:
NinjUtsu (Note the U after the j) is a Japanese art, which traces its history back generations.  NinjItsu (note the i after the j) is a modern creation tracing its roots back to Frank Dux.


====

*Question*:
What is Taijutsu?  

*Answer*: (Jay Bell)
Taijutsu is a generic term used for unarmed combat. Much like "Jujutsu". It's not Ninpo specific.
Budo Taijutsu is Bujinkan specific. The Genbukan uses Ninpo Taijutsu and so on.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4192

===

*Question*:
What is this "Quest System" or "ToShinDo" I hear about in connection to Steven Hayes?  Isn't he a ninja?

*Answer*:
Steven Hayes at last report was still a member of the Bujinkan and still on good terms with GM Hatsumi.  He has been teaching his own flavor of his ninjutsu training  under the To-Shin-Do name for a while now through his Quest Centers.  More information can be found by searching this forum and at http://www.skhquest.com/training/ToShinDoDescription.aspx

============

More FAQ's to be added as we can.


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## Enson

about the ninjutsu or ninjitsu...
well it seems like all the koga ryu schools seem to call it "ninjitsu" now i know this might spark up debate and name calling that there is no koga schools cause there is no ancient "writ". i know it tells of a white ninja like none other and about sensei and two gaisha. (joke)  we have heard it all before. the fact is there are koga schools. even if they can't back their claims with anything written on a writ. they still call it ninjitsu. hope i don't offend anybody but sometimes it gets redundant in here. i'm just saying that there are schools that proclaim the koga as there origens, and they call it koga ninjitsu. has nothing to do with dux, duncan, or anyone else. i posted some sites up under the thread "sites?" just something i stumbled on to.
peace


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## Bujingodai

So you'd like some FAQ on the independent systems.


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## Bob Hubbard

Sure.


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## Enson

what is quest?

i believe that someone else... i think mr. severe also has a quest series of his own. i believe that mr. hayes's was first. not sure maybe someone can shed some light on the difference. i think mr. hayes calls his dojos quest center and mr severe has a program called quest. i maybe wrong. (i hate when i'm wrong)


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## Genin Andrew

for information go to www.skhquest.com 

Hayes calls his "To Shin Do" dojos "quest centres" and i think his To shin Do art is referred to by some as "quest" i dont know alot but the site is pretty informative.I'm not to sure about the Ralph Severe side of things but i'm sure he will post and clarify...

much respect
-andrew


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## Cruentus

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> So you'd like some FAQ on the independent systems.



I would...because I don't understand where "Independents" fit into the mix (except for those indie schools who are clearly using the ninjitsu name with no real lineage to back it up).

Domo Adigato

Yours,
 Mr. Roboto
 :asian:


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## Bob Hubbard

I would like to update this regularly.

I am looking for various information:
- Who is Frank Dux
- Who is Steven Hayes
- Who is Masaaki Hatsumi
- Who is Ashida Kim
- Who is (Insert important name here)

- What is (Insert important term)


I ask that the information be presented in a professional manner. Cite references where you can, and if the information is pulled from another thread here or elsewhere, that a link is included.

Thank you.


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## Shogun

> and they call it koga ninjitsu


A video series is out on "Koga ryu Ninjitsu", by Juan Hombre. the cover has ninja "flipping out". lol.


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## Kalifallen

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> I would like to update this regularly.
> 
> I am looking for various information:
> - Who is Frank Dux
> - Who is Steven Hayes
> - Who is Masaaki Hatsumi
> - Who is Ashida Kim
> - Who is (Insert important name here)
> 
> - What is (Insert important term)
> 
> 
> I ask that the information be presented in a professional manner. Cite references where you can, and if the information is pulled from another thread here or elsewhere, that a link is included.
> 
> Thank you.


*Stephen K. Hayes* - His ninja books will tell you a lot about him. Especially the, _Secret Fighting Techniques_, book (I believe that is the title). From what I remember he started in 1974. Has a BA in Theater Arts. Started _The Shaows of Iga_ in the late '70s while he was still learning from Hatsumi. Married Rumiko a student of Hatsumi's. Had a baby girl around '85 (don't know anything about their daughter). And that's all I know.
What is it? Modern, all Bujinkan but has a Western philosophy.

*Robert Bussey* - Read, _Ninjutsu: Basic Skills & Techniques_, and Keith Jones', _"King of Combat" The Devastating Approach of Robert Bussey_, for more info. Though busseystyle.com also has some info. Started learning ninjutsu around the age of 16-18. Had a Karate dojo (I believe) already set up before he started ninjutsu. Started that one up at the age of 15 with his friend. Started RBWI around the age of 21. Never recieved his 5th dan because he was supposibly "scared of the sakki test" (says Glenn Morris in his strategies book). Afterwards he just taught ninjutsu and stopped in '97. Now he teaches a self defense course, Genuine Bussey Style.
What was it? Modern, stuck semi true to the Bujinkan art while incorrperating Christianity and ninjutsu applications that aren't popular (high kicks, etc).

*Rick Tew* - Ah, I'll try and find the site. I know I have the link somewhere. This was written by one on Tew's students. It said that he started learning the martial arts when he was a teen. Learned kickboxing, hapkido, something else then ninjutsu. He knows RWBI and Dux Ryu. He quit/got kicked out of Dux Ryu because when he was a black belt he was telling Dux how he could improve on his art and Dux didn't like that. So he left, and know many Dux students dislike Tew. On a trip to Europe with one of his teachers he got the idea of starting a training camp. In/Around '87 he started Tew Ryu Ninjitsu. (There is a video clip of him doing the splits on the horse and the date says '87) He has never said he teaches ninjitsu/ninjutsu though he does use the term. 
What is it? Hybrid, incorrperates all the martial arts that he has learned and what he enjoys to do.

*Ashida Kim* - Check out the ashidakim.com site. He tells that he learned the art from Count Dante. Which is confussing since Dante did not know ninjutsu. Kim claims he knows Koga ninjutsu called Mui Gui Jutsu (not sure on the spelling. He is part of the orginzation, Black Dragon Society Clan. He says he took over the ninjutsu orginzation of the clan which Dante gave to him. And he says, he wanted to be a ninja so he could steal and assassinate people. Still takes students and supposibly has a home study course.
What is it? Fake, has no proof.

*Frank Dux* - frankdux.com might help. Doesn't teach anymore because of physical problems.
What is it? Fake, has no proof.


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## jibran

Kali, great job with your descriptions. I will try to finish it while mantaining you standard of writing.
*Masaaki Hatsumi*- The Grandmaster of Ninjutsu by lineage. He recieved the masterships of the ninja martial arts from Toshitsugu Takamatsu, the 33rd Grandmaster of the Togakure Ryu ninja tradition. Dr. Hatsumi has recieved several awards from around the world, including German Knighthood and the prestigious Imperial award of culture (or something like that). He is the Soke of the Bujinkan organization and the nine martial arts that it is composed of. The X-Kans are headed by his former senior students.
What is it?  The Bujinkan offers legitimate training in classical Japanese budo. It is the largest nimpo organization in the world.

And about Mr. Hayes' daughters: They are both black belts (at least nidan, I will have to ask to be sure) and extremely skilled. The Hayes daughters are very kind and will answer any question you may have about the Quest Center program if you call the Bujinkan Kasumi-An Dojo/ Dayton Quest Center.

Mr. Rustaz,
I hope this helps.
Your buyu,
Jibran Khan


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## Satt

Hey Kaith, I thought you were on "vacation". Nice to see you back though.

:ultracool


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Since I believe I should stay away from the AN forum for the time being, I just want to point this out to everyone who hasn't given it thought yet. The following words are among those NOT synonymous with the concept ninjutsu:

- Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan/To Shin Do/martial science

- Taijutsu/unarmed techniques

- Ninpo

- Bujutsu

- Budo

- Shurikenjutsu

- Taihenjutsu

- etc.
And I still haven't figured out why someone would want to call something ninjutsu that isn't, Japanese or otherwise.


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## Kizaru

I've noticed that recently Enson, gmunoz and Moko have been banned, and Bestor has been suspended.

These four members contribute often to these threads, and after looking at what they'd written in the past few weeks I found it difficult to pinpoint their reasons for suspension and/or banning.

Could someone on the staff clarify the grounds for their banishment and/or suspensions here so that others (such as myself) can avoid the same fate?

Thank you.


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## Bob Hubbard

Without going into specifics, 
- When warned, take it like a man.  Don't argue with the staff member or admin who sent it, and definately don't get insulting, threatening or demanding.
---- 1 hint "Using the phrases 'Ill sue', or 'Im gona get everyone to leave MT and start a real board'" are not going to win you any points.
- When requesting your account be closed, don't tell us to F-Off, suggest locations to insert the server, or creatively speculate on the contents of our family trees. 
- When using the "Report to Mod" feature, it is not neccessary to find every post by an individual in a thread or threads, and report them seperately.  (Also including ultimatiums in those reports will most likely get you ignored or worse.)

There are more, but thats the main points I think.

Now, for a few specifics:
Due to comments made via the PM system, the Rep System and on the forum themselves as well as abuse of the RTM system or violating 1 or more of the points above, Enson, Gmunoz, Moko, Bester, SojoBow and Yariman have been suspended, for varying lengths of time. A few cases were multiples.  (Note I am going back a month or so here).

Due to false information in the profile, as well as the above abuses, Yariman was banned.

Enson, Gmunoz, and Moko's "account closure" requests were converted to bans based in part on statements made to various staff on the way out.

Both Bester and Sojobow's suspensions are up after New Years.

We have also issued a number of warnings, both unofficial friendly ones, as well as official ones privately and publically.

Our desire for the Ninjutsu sections is to provide an area for the discussion of the topics, people, history and events related to that subject.  We and I would like to see it grow to be comparable to our leading forums Kenpo and the FMA.


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## kwaichang

Bob Hubbard said:


> *Ninja Forum FAQ:*
> 
> *Question*:
> What is this "Quest System" or "ToShinDo" I hear about in connection to Steven Hayes? Isn't he a ninja?
> 
> *Answer*:
> Steven Hayes at last report was still a member of the Bujinkan and still on good terms with GM Hatsumi. He has been teaching his own flavor of his ninjutsu training under the To-Shin-Do name for a while now through his Quest Centers. More information can be found by searching this forum and at http://www.skhquest.com/training/ToShinDoDescription.aspx
> 
> ============
> 
> More FAQ's to be added as we can.


 
SKH was "told" by Grandmaster Hatsumi to "go and take your knowledge to the world" and he permitted him to create his own style, which he did shortly after (or during his studies) becoming a Shinto Priest.

I'm fortunate to have studied under SKH for years and have been to Japan to meet and study with Hatsumi Sensei and Tanemura Sensei before he left to create his own school.


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## allenjp

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Since I believe I should stay away from the AN forum for the time being, I just want to point this out to everyone who hasn't given it thought yet. The following words are among those NOT synonymous with the concept ninjutsu:
> 
> - Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan/To Shin Do/martial science
> 
> - Taijutsu/unarmed techniques
> 
> - Ninpo
> 
> - Bujutsu
> 
> - Budo
> 
> - Shurikenjutsu
> 
> - Taihenjutsu
> 
> - etc.
> And I still haven't figured out why someone would want to call something ninjutsu that isn't, Japanese or otherwise.


 
OK, now I'm confused.

Many people on this forum would state that Bujinkan, Genbukan, and Jinenkan are the ONLY legitimate Nijutsu organizations out there. If they are not synonymous with Ninjutsu, what is?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

allenjp said:


> OK, now I'm confused.
> 
> Many people on this forum would state that Bujinkan, Genbukan, and Jinenkan are the ONLY legitimate Nijutsu organizations out there. If they are not synonymous with Ninjutsu, what is?


 
Ninjutsu is a fairly unique Japanese phenomenon, the knowledge of which is contained within the Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.


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## Raynac

Bob Hubbard said:


> *Ninja Forum FAQ:*
> 
> *Question*:
> How many organizations are there and how are they organized (Who's at the top, etc)
> 
> *Answer*: (Jay Bell)
> There are three main organizations. The Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.


 
I was wondering is To-shin do a main organization now?(as it has been close to 5 years since the last post in this thread)


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## Cryozombie

Raynac said:


> I was wondering is To-shin do a main organization now?(as it has been close to 5 years since the last post in this thread)


 
No.  Toshindo was removed from this forum and given its own, since its an "American" art, not a Japanese one.


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## Raynac

really!? oh... but this is under the ninjutsu section not japanese arts(of course I realize it IS a japanese art)... oh well i trust you know what your talking about =(. 

awwww but i like the ninjutsu section so much, now I feel like I've lost my connection with it.. :lisafault:


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## Raynac

ohh lol well i got to look at those forum heading better ninjutsu is a subheading not the main one. whoops


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## Cryozombie

Raynac said:


> now I feel like I've lost my connection with it..


 
Well, ya know... Nevermind.  I will stick by Thumper's advice.


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## shirobanryunotora

Hi Mr.B.Hubbard-was going through the sites older data in regards to history and lineages-noticed that Kizaru 26/9/2004 3.10am had the opinion that  Iga/Koga ryu died out with Fujita Seiko etc-however the data i have on this ryu is that this was not correct-my data indicates that 14th Soke Fujita Seiko who had a dojo in the tokyo suburb of Nezu passed on the Soke title to a Mr.Heishichoro Okuse 15th Soke(he later became the Mayor of Iga btw)who in turn passed it on to a Mr.Kazuo Saito 16th Soke whom i believe is still living today? The originals of this data is/was? deposited in the Fujita Bunko(library) at the Ninja Museum in Iga Ueno suburb.Sections of this data were reprinted in the Blitz MA magazine Dec/Jan 1993/4 issue.Am not sure of the validity of this data-just thought would bring it to you attention. Also have some info that indicates Mr.K.Saito was a Japanese Sumo champion of some nature though not sure if this is same person etc. Anyway thought you might find the above intreresting-till the next rr


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## Dean Whittle

Robert,

You'll find that information is not only out of date, but completely incorrect.

For a more accurate account of Fujita Seiko's life and legacy look at http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/ and perhaps buy the book.

With respect


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## Bruno@MT

Koga Ryu Wada-ha died with Fujita Seiko.
He did have a school and he did pass on several arts for which he was soke (3 IIRC) but not his Koga Ryu lineage. At least not according to the biography written by Philip T Hevener. And having read the biography, I have to say the ending of that particular lineage fits with the ideas and principles he had.

More recently, Jinichi Kawakami sensei claims to teach a Koga Ryu lineage, which may be true. At least to me, the information I have seems plausible enough to give it the benefit of the doubt.


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## shirobanryunotora

Dean Whittle said:


> Robert,
> 
> You'll find that information is not only out of date, but completely incorrect.
> 
> For a more accurate account of Fujita Seiko's life and legacy look at http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/ and perhaps buy the book.
> 
> With respect


Hi-sure and will check it out though am unsure how info dealing with history can be "out of date" exactly? Imo just because info is considered by some to be old/outdated does not mean it is not relevant esp. in regards to events/MAs that are inherently old anyway(from our point of view)-otherwise whats the point in studying any of the old texts/books on any subject or the likes of the old/out of date bujinkan scrolls & etc for example in regards to ninpo?? It sometimes may be that the only data available is "out of date" but i for one am not going to disregard or ignore it solely because of that factor.The study of any olden tradition or culture often relies heavily on such data and the only new thing is the current interpretation of that data.Hope this explains my view and appreciate the tip about the book-till the next rr


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## Chris Parker

Robert, I'm going to send you a PM about Saito, as this site does not endorse or engage in fraudbusting. I just need to clear some room first, so give me a bit.

But, to answer your question as to how your history can be "out of date", new facts can come to light which expose certain claims as incorrect. Putting it incredibly gently, this is a case like that. The other way it can be out of date is that incorrect ideas (such as your idea that Tanemura was a student of Takamatsu's before Hatsumi was as you didn't realise that Hatsumi was refering to Ueno Takashi, who taught him Asayama Ichiden Ryu and Bokuden Ryu, as well as a line of Shinden Fudo Ryu and so on) are accepted, and then corrected when better information comes to light.

EDIT: Just starting to write out your PM, and something struck me. As Dean said, there is a lot that is incorrect in your post, and the very Ryu you are refering to is one. Fujita Seiko was the last head of the Wada-ha Koga Ryu, nothing to do with the (or any) Iga Ryu. Okuse Heishichiro was the former mayor of Iga-Ueno, no connection to the Koga Ryu or Iga Ryu (other than the museum there featuring both Iga and Koga exhibits), and Saito Kazuo claimed to be the head of the Iga Ryu (more on that in the PM). So the Ryu themselves don't even match up in your version, which should be the first clue.


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## shirobanryunotora

Chris Parker said:


> Robert, I'm going to send you a PM about Saito, as this site does not endorse or engage in fraudbusting. I just need to clear some room first, so give me a bit.
> 
> But, to answer your question as to how your history can be "out of date", new facts can come to light which expose certain claims as incorrect. Putting it incredibly gently, this is a case like that. The other way it can be out of date is that incorrect ideas (such as your idea that Tanemura was a student of Takamatsu's before Hatsumi was as you didn't realise that Hatsumi was refering to Ueno Takashi, who taught him Asayama Ichiden Ryu and Bokuden Ryu, as well as a line of Shinden Fudo Ryu and so on) are accepted, and then corrected when better information comes to light.
> 
> EDIT: Just starting to write out your PM, and something struck me. As Dean said, there is a lot that is incorrect in your post, and the very Ryu you are refering to is one. Fujita Seiko was the last head of the Wada-ha Koga Ryu, nothing to do with the (or any) Iga Ryu. Okuse Heishichiro was the former mayor of Iga-Ueno, no connection to the Koga Ryu or Iga Ryu (other than the museum there featuring both Iga and Koga exhibits), and Saito Kazuo claimed to be the head of the Iga Ryu (more on that in the PM). So the Ryu themselves don't even match up in your version, which should be the first clue.


hi-just to be clear-the data i gave is not my version nor my history-as stated in the text it came from Blitz magazine-i was just passing on the data for others to check out and discuss etc on this discussion forum-so correcting and lecturing me seems little more than "shooting the messenger" type approach-furthermore as for the other comment re my idea i apologised for my names mixup to the person concerned once it was pointed out to me and accepted that correction-am not sure what you mean by fraudbusting so have no comment about that yet-also what data shows there was no connection between the previous mayor and Iga/Koga ryu?-till the next rr


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## Chris Parker

To begin with, "fraudbusting" is the deliberate pursuance of fraudulant individuals in the Martial Arts. Questions are fine about people or arts, but pursuing aggressively isn't. There are various reasons, including opening up the site to legal issues, but we don't need to go through that here.

As to your post, you presented the information as a "correction" to the information presented already, which makes it appear as your version of things, and that "correction" needed correction. The immediate discussion is simple. It's wrong.

In terms of the "data" about Okuse, let's look at it. Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu are related, but not by any means the same. So no-one was head of anything called "IgaRyu/Koga Ryu", it's really an either/or situation. Okuse also never claimed to be anything more than an interested researcher in Ninja and Ninjutsu methods, it was a few early English books (such as Andy Adams') that gave an impression of him being more than a researcher. But there was never a claim of him being anything like head of a Ryu, other than from Saito. He basically fabricated the connection, and had some posed photos to use as evidence.


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## shirobanryunotora

Chris Parker said:


> Robert, I'm going to send you a PM about Saito, as this site does not endorse or engage in fraudbusting. I just need to clear some room first, so give me a bit.
> 
> But, to answer your question as to how your history can be "out of date", new facts can come to light which expose certain claims as incorrect. Putting it incredibly gently, this is a case like that. The other way it can be out of date is that incorrect ideas (such as your idea that Tanemura was a student of Takamatsu's before Hatsumi was as you didn't realise that Hatsumi was refering to Ueno Takashi, who taught him Asayama Ichiden Ryu and Bokuden Ryu, as well as a line of Shinden Fudo Ryu and so on) are accepted, and then corrected when better information comes to light.
> 
> EDIT: Just starting to write out your PM, and something struck me. As Dean said, there is a lot that is incorrect in your post, and the very Ryu you are refering to is one. Fujita Seiko was the last head of the Wada-ha Koga Ryu, nothing to do with the (or any) Iga Ryu. Okuse Heishichiro was the former mayor of Iga-Ueno, no connection to the Koga Ryu or Iga Ryu (other than the museum there featuring both Iga and Koga exhibits), and Saito Kazuo claimed to be the head of the Iga Ryu (more on that in the PM). So the Ryu themselves don't even match up in your version, which should be the first clue.


Hi-apologies for stirring up a storm however as stated earlier the data and version etc was not mine and the reference was supplied.Also if you read my text again you should note i stated explicitly that i was unsure of its validity and was simply bringing it to the attention of others. That being so and in regards to all that has been said in reaction by you and others on this matter and other issues i am inclined to refrain from "discussing" such topics with you and others here and impose a self posting ban on such topics and not bother to seek clarification on my research- unless i am compelled to do so there will be no more next from me-rr


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## Chris Parker

Okay.... It wasn't my intention to get you to stop posting, however if you are going to post such incorrect information, expect it to be corrected and pulled up on. So yes, while you did mention some degree of uncertainty about the validity of the information, you also presented it as a correction to the earlier posts, and argued about how it could be out of date, and why that would lower the worth of the data you had. That presents it as your belief, whether it is or not, and that is what we responded to.

In regard to your "refrain(ing) from "discussing" such topics with you and others here and impose a self posting ban on such topics and not bother(ing) to seek clarification on my research", well, that's obviously your call, but I would say that if you are believing Saito's claims, and misinterpret things the way you have, then perhaps seeking clarification is a very good idea for you. You obviously have some good contacts (if the name dropping you do so prominantly is any indication), so I am wondering where some of the odd ideas have come from.

Actually, going through your posts and profile, you mention a trip to Japan in 1990, that you were apparently the first of Ed's students to visit Japan, and your profile lists you as a Godan (a fairly low rank, Bujinkan-wise these days, especially for someone who has been around as long as you have), do you mind if I ask if you're still training, and under who?


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## shirobanryunotora

Hi-as stated earlier, the data was not my belief so would appreciate you not insisting it was continously. I supplied the reference for others to comment on  etc. and appreciate the correcting though not the lecturing.This forum is for discussing as far as i am aware so would hope you keep that in mind. 

 Furthermore I never said i believed the data-in fact said was unsure as to its validity etc-so keep that in mind as well(though would have liked it to be corrected if true). As for my "odd ideas" comment from you-thats an opinion and will be treated by me as such. If you insist on continuing with these type comments I will ask the mods to intervene.

Now onto your "name dropping" comment-yes i have been around the ninpo scene since 1983 and travelled overseas so have met,befriended and trained with many of those who also have been around since then,so obviously would mention them regarding ninpo etc. No surprise there i would think.

For reasons of my own I  do not seek further grading and am quite content to be where i am. Part of this is because I began ninpo to help fulfill a childhood dream due to continuing abuse from a step parent from a very early age. This dream as such was fulfilled in adelaide 1992 at the first Aust. TaiKai when I was asked by Soke to sit for the Godan sword test.

 I do not teach as such and have no need to obtain further gradings etc. I train with an ex-Wayne Roy student on a personal and regular basis.Whenever I am able and can afford to, I train with whoever is in Sth Aust at the time. I consider myself to be "under" Soke Hatsumi and Shihan Nagato of the Bujinkan.

Hope this is the info you seek- till the next rr


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## jks9199

Folks, it's important to remember that messages here sometimes can be read differently than they're intended.  Even the most carefully phrased and well written posts lack the various nonverbal cues of face to face communication, so a statement that might have been softened with a smile or tone of voice in a real conversation can be misconstrued.

We welcome and want the active participation of anyone who'll follow the rules and can play nice with others.  We all have had different experiences, and sharing those experiences and interests is what MT is all about.


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## alexanddernigth

With all respect,  Who is Shihan Felix Diaz, 14th Dan? Any information about the Shihan, I wanna study under his guide, I try before but I get injury in a car accident. Thanks for any help.


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## Chris Parker

alexanddernigth said:


> With all respect,  Who is Shihan Felix Diaz, 14th Dan? Any information about the Shihan, I wanna study under his guide, I try before but I get injury in a car accident. Thanks for any help.



http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?92079-Info-and-Help!

Not sure much else can be added, Felix seems to have removed the videos from you-tube, there is no website (although there is a facebook page), etc. So, basically, he's a 14th Dan in the Bujinkan is about all that can be said unless a student of his, or someone that knows him turns up.


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## Ebrahim Mosaval

Enson said:


> about the ninjutsu or ninjitsu...
> well it seems like all the koga ryu schools seem to call it "ninjitsu" now i know this might spark up debate and name calling that there is no koga schools cause there is no ancient "writ". i know it tells of a white ninja like none other and about sensei and two gaisha. (joke)  we have heard it all before. the fact is there are koga schools. even if they can't back their claims with anything written on a writ. they still call it ninjitsu. hope i don't offend anybody but sometimes it gets redundant in here. i'm just saying that there are schools that proclaim the koga as there origens, and they call it koga ninjitsu. has nothing to do with dux, duncan, or anyone else. i posted some sites up under the thread "sites?" just something i stumbled on to.
> peace



Any form of ninjitsu/ ninjutsu does not require a writ. That is a dream by which the west seeks to discredit the practitioners. It is also a western ideology and methodology which is used to declare themselves the Masters of the Eastern  Arts. It does not take a rocket Scientist to deduce that there is and was never a writ of any kind for any form practiced by Shinobi. Perhaps some research into who the Samurai were and how they were chosen would shed some light on the matter. I am not here to Educate those who have qualified themselves as critics and setters of standards for an art which neither they or their ancestors originated. I am simply amazed at the fact that people who have absolutely no roots in these arts want to express their opinions based on their biased research substantiating their claims with manufactured facts. "I guess you actually believe that man landed on the moon.!!!


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## Gerry Seymour

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> Any form of ninjitsu/ ninjutsu does not require a writ. That is a dream by which the west seeks to discredit the practitioners. It is also a western ideology and methodology which is used to declare themselves the Masters of the Eastern  Arts. It does not take a rocket Scientist to deduce that there is and was never a writ of any kind for any form practiced by Shinobi. Perhaps some research into who the Samurai were and how they were chosen would shed some light on the matter. I am not here to Educate those who have qualified themselves as critics and setters of standards for an art which neither they or their ancestors originated. I am simply amazed at the fact that people who have absolutely no roots in these arts want to express their opinions based on their biased research substantiating their claims with manufactured facts. "I guess you actually believe that man landed on the moon.!!!


Er, what?


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## Tony Dismukes

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> Any form of ninjitsu/ ninjutsu does not require a writ. That is a dream by which the west seeks to discredit the practitioners. It is also a western ideology and methodology which is used to declare themselves the Masters of the Eastern Arts.


You have that backwards. Documentation of lineage and credentials is very much a part of Japanese martial traditions. Not so much for Western traditions - no one asks a boxing coach for their lineage or instructors license.



Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> I am simply amazed at the fact that people who have absolutely no roots in these arts want to express their opinions based on their biased research substantiating their claims with manufactured facts.



Quite a few of the participants in this thread have years or decades training in Japanese arts in general and/or "ninjutsu" traditions in specific. None of them claims to be a "Master of the Eastern Arts."

What exactly is your training background? So far everything you've posted seems like it's based on ideas you might have gotten from popular fiction rather than any experience in the relevant arts.


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## Ebrahim Mosaval

A


Tony Dismukes said:


> You have that backwards. Documentation of lineage and credentials is very much a part of Japanese martial traditions. Not so much for Western traditions - no one asks a boxing coach for their lineage or instructors license.
> 
> 
> 
> Quite a few of the participants in this thread have years or decades training in Japanese arts in general and/or "ninjutsu" traditions in specific. None of them claims to be a "Master of the Eastern Arts."
> 
> What exactly is your training background? So far everything you've posted seems like it's based on ideas you might have gotten from popular fiction rather than any experience in the relevant arts.



So I need to present credentials in order to present the truth??? 
Should I present certificates and accolades. Please let me know where I need to post the same alongside those of each and every poster and I shall gladly oblige.
I assume that there is such a facility that has been created here?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> A
> 
> 
> So I need to present credentials in order to present the truth???
> Should I present certificates and accolades. Please let me know where I need to post the same alongside those of each and every poster and I shall gladly oblige.
> I assume that there is such a facility that has been created here?


The issue is you are stating 'they' are expressing their opinions without any roots or experience in those arts, and should not be able to do so. If you want to make that specific claim, then you would need to either present your own credentials in order to express your own opinions, and have them taken seriously.


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## Tony Dismukes

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> A
> 
> 
> So I need to present credentials in order to present the truth???
> Should I present certificates and accolades. Please let me know where I need to post the same alongside those of each and every poster and I shall gladly oblige.
> I assume that there is such a facility that has been created here?


Sure, such a “facility” exists. It’s the same posts and comments we use for all our other communication on this site. Some of us post a thread in the “Meet and Greet” subforum to introduce ourselves. Some of us explain our relevant background and experience in the course of discussing a given topic. Some of us give that information in response to a direct question, like the one you were just asked. Some do all of the above. Search through our posting history and you can usually find that information. Take your pick which option you prefer.

(BTW, no mention was made of certificates or accolades. I asked about your training experience. However you can feel free to explain whatever “accolades” you may have received while recounting your training background.)


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## Gerry Seymour

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> A
> 
> 
> So I need to present credentials in order to present the truth???
> Should I present certificates and accolades. Please let me know where I need to post the same alongside those of each and every poster and I shall gladly oblige.
> I assume that there is such a facility that has been created here?


Most of us have actually introduced ourselves with our background, and discuss those backgrounds from time to time for perspective.


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