# The importance of the holder in board breaking



## IcemanSK (Apr 28, 2009)

I've noticed a lot of folks discussing whether or not one needs a good holder when breaking boards.

How important is having a good holder when breaking? Do they need to be trained, or can anyone hold boards for breaking? How many boards should be comfortable held before a machine for holding should be used?


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 28, 2009)

I think the most I've ever broken hand-held is four -- pics below. A good holder is important for the safety of the person holding the boards as far as I'm concerned. A good holder is someone who knows how to stand as well how to hold the board. I certainly wouldn't pick someone out of the crowd to hold.







In this pic, just as I'm breaking in, you can see that one of the holders has his head turned away, which makes it safer for him, and perhaps less likely to anticipate the strike.


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## terryl965 (Apr 28, 2009)

I will only break with people I know when they are being held. At my age I do not risk any injuries.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 28, 2009)

pretty much NOTHING is as important as the skill of the people holding boards. They flinch, or give a bit, then you AINT gonna break it


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## granfire (Apr 28, 2009)

well, I think I held 3 boards for my 'Boss' once (he ain't paying me tho) and that is definetly the limit for me (heck I am kinda tiny with smallish hands) a guy with hands like toilet lids can hold 4 I bet with ease! 

You have to have a deep solid stance and lock your elbows, looking away certainly helps with not flinching - which also helps to not get hurt. I sometimes even close my eyes...

and before somebody says something... holding is tough! Not so much for he big guys who know what they are doing, even holding 3 boards...but when things don't go quiet right, or take a long time....ouwee, it hurts...wrists, arms, legs....and, of course, fingers... 

I think - and I may be corrected, as holder you have to have the opposite attitude from the breaker: while he/she has to aim for behind the board, you have to consider yourself to be in a forward  - not motion - but state of mind. reminds me, need to check the schedule.... when breaking is again...


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 28, 2009)

granfire said:


> You have to have a deep solid stance and lock your elbows, looking away certainly helps with not flinching - which also helps to not get hurt. I sometimes even close my eyes...
> 
> I think - and I may be corrected, as holder you have to have the opposite attitude from the breaker: while he/she has to aim for behind the board, you have to consider yourself to be in a forward  - not motion - but state of mind. reminds me, need to check the schedule.... when breaking is again...



That's pretty much how I see it too. Strong stance work and a sense of being forward -- very good way to put it. As TF pointed out, if they're holding wrong, the wood won't break, but your hand just might.


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## KGTKD (Apr 28, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> That's pretty much how I see it too. Strong stance work and a sense of being forward -- very good way to put it. As TF pointed out, if they're holding wrong, the wood won't break, but your hand just might.



Yep, during a test, the holder moved during a punch break, and I ended up with a bad broken hand (boxer's fracture). I was not happy when I saw the replay. Ouch. I was out for the better part of 2 months


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## bluekey88 (Apr 29, 2009)

There are a lot of factors that go into a good break...but the two that can really mess you up and are the least obvious are the holder with the wood being a close second.

If the holder is not holding firm, if they flinch, waiver, etc it's all over.  I had to work with my son at home to train him to hold for me and it took a lot of work for him to relax enough to not flinch when I came barrelling thorugh with a kick.  For awhile, there wasn't a break I could successfully do if he held for me.  Thankfully that is no longer the case.

Wood condition is also really important. If the wood is really knotty/gnarly, or really sappy and dense, that can be an issue. During the last test that I had that required breaking, I was ready to do a ridgehand speed break (unsupported). I didn't get a chance to buy new wood and had to go with what I had left at home...which was really sappy. I hit that board with all I had twice...left a dent in it...but it didn't break. My instructor thought I was doing somethin wrong and tried to break the baord, it wouldn;t break. He got me n new board....more of the same. Finally, afterf 4 or 5 attempts and 3 boards, I hit the break. My wrist/hand was all bruised and swollen for a week and a half from the beating I gave it attempting the break.

People can see when you arent' focused or have poor technique. It's much harder for an observer to see if the hodler is secure or the wood is good.

Peace,
Erik


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## K31 (Apr 29, 2009)

Another thing a holder needs is experience. 

My instructor asked me to break a board using a punch or palm strike (I forget which) and had two of the classroom assistants (high ranking underbelts or blackbelts) hold it. Just before I was about to strike it, he stopped me and had the two stand out of the centerline. Both of them were behind the board originally. I struck it and the pieces flew out of their hands and back towards the "bleachers" about 3/4 of the length of the room. I saw the holders look at each other like "that's where my face was a minute ago".

Also, the "breaker" needs to realize that they have latitude in how the board is held. I think some people either haven't been told or are shy about asking the holder to change the height or angle a bit even if the holder is a higher rank.


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## igillman (Apr 29, 2009)

The holder is as much a part of the breaking as the striker. If the holder fliches or absorbs the impact then the board will not break. If the holder loses their concentration and moves the board at the wrong time then things will not go well. I think that you should have a class on how to hold boards for others. Use the black rebreakable boards because you do not want the boards to break too easily. I would want the holders to feel how much force is coming at them so that they can be prepared for it.


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## seasoned (Apr 29, 2009)

It helps if the holder has broken boards themselves. I have seen boards slip out of the holders grip and end up hitting the holder. Not a good situation. The holder makes it happen.


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## Miles (Apr 30, 2009)

Board holders are of prime importance as has been pointed out.

Question though (especially if anyone here knows physics):
What is the proper way for 2 board-holders to hold?

The photo posted above shows the inside leg of both the holders back and the holder on the left (from breaker's perspective) has his right hand on the top of the board.  

Is this position better than having the respective holders have their inside leg forward and their inside arm holding the top of the board?

When we break in my school, we use the latter method.

As to turning heads, etc.  I think it is a good idea for the breaker to tell his/her holders when to "lock out" at which time they can turn their heads away from the breaker.  This way the holders are not burning up energy while the breaker gets his/her distance, and the holders (who usually are experienced breakers) to offer any pointers to the breaker....


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## granfire (Apr 30, 2009)

It really depends on the technique you are using if you want the holders to spoon together or which leg is out front etc...if I an doing an elbow strike with my right, maybe it's not the best idea for the holder to be in a right stance...

We teach folks to put the inside arm on top, grab the board along the 'factory edge' with the grain.

And when we break we let them know when we are ready to break.


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## IcemanSK (Apr 30, 2009)

Miles said:


> Board holders are of prime importance as has been pointed out.
> 
> Question though (especially if anyone here knows physics):
> What is the proper way for 2 board-holders to hold?
> ...


 

Thanks for this Miles.

I like the idea of letting the holders know when to "lock out": rather than letting them stand there.

For StuartA, Earl Weiss, Kacey & any others who use a board holding "machine" in breaking. (I assumed Kacey does as it seems to be more of an ITF-style thing). Do you make them yourselves, or can you buy them somewhere? How many boards can can hold? What's the usual minimum number of boards you'll hold before saying, "ok, time for the holder?" (eg. At 4 boards do you say, "it's time?") What are the advantages & disadvantages of these holders?


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 30, 2009)

IcemanSK said:


> Thanks for this Miles.
> 
> I like the idea of letting the holders know when to "lock out": rather than letting them stand there.
> 
> For StuartA, Earl Weiss, Kacey & any others who use a board holding "machine" in breaking. (I assumed Kacey does as it seems to be more of an ITF-style thing). Do you make them yourselves, or can you buy them somewhere? How many boards can can hold? What's the usual minimum number of boards you'll hold before saying, "ok, time for the holder?" (eg. At 4 boards do you say, "it's time?") What are the advantages & disadvantages of these holders?


 
Funny you should ask . See:
http://www.geocities.com/ustfregion5/Boardholder.html

a. Make it yourself 
b. Have used them for up to 8 and even more
c. Use them for 2 or more 
d. Advantage: Takes away variable of holders. Holders not afraid of getting fingers crunched. Holders don't get fingers crunched.  As designed can be adjustable wall mounted so no people needed for holding. Allows solo practice. Disadgantage- Flying kicks, if no retraction leg(s) will get held up in holder


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## StuartA (Apr 30, 2009)

IcemanSK said:


> For StuartA, Earl Weiss, Kacey & any others who use a board holding "machine" in breaking. (I assumed Kacey does as it seems to be more of an ITF-style thing). Do you make them yourselves, or can you buy them somewhere? How many boards can can hold? What's the usual minimum number of boards you'll hold before saying, "ok, time for the holder?" (eg. At 4 boards do you say, "it's time?") What are the advantages & disadvantages of these holders?


 
We use board holders (as oppsoed to people) as it makes things equal. those these days you can buy some types of holders, they are expensive and usually have to be wall mounted, so we usually make them ourselves out of wood.

As for how many boards they can hold, it varies depending on how its built. Our adult holder can hold 4 boards, however, in the UK nearly everyone uses rebreakable boards, which even the standard ones are harder than wood to break, as they have only one grain and are usually denser. So 4 breakable boards is probibly equal to 6 wood (pirana pine).

Depending on where you buy the rebreakable boards (as it varies widly these days), we also use black and red boards. in "ye old days2 a black board was the equal of 2 cream/standard boards and a red board was the equal of 3. these days however many companies produce them and have ignored the old standards to make them the equivilant of belt colours, meaning a red board is often easier than black etc. Though we still work on the old criteria and try to ensure the boards we get follow that. So, theoretically, our main breaking holder could hold the equivilant of:

6 pine boards (11 x 11 inch by 1 inch thick)
or
4 Cream boards
or
4 black boards (ie. the equivilant of 8 cream or 12 pine)
or
4 red boards ((ie. the equivilant of 12 cream or 16 pine)

For demo's in the past we have used wood, purely as it looks good athetically and we dont have to carry breaking holders around, for gradings we use a holder so its equal, with cream boards for under 16's, black board for kup grade adults and 1 black, 1 cream for dan gradings, and 1 black for jumping techniques. Oh, we also have a junior holder.

Stuart





Not the best pcture in the world, but you can see the holder. Its raised for the jumping turning kick technique required for those attempting 2nd dan.





junior holder - we use the block/steps to adjust the height for bigger kids (and sometimes small adults)


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## K31 (May 1, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> Funny you should ask . See:
> http://www.geocities.com/ustfregion5/Boardholder.html
> 
> a. Make it yourself
> ...



 Do you have any pictures of a completed holder?


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## Deaf Smith (May 1, 2009)

IcemanSK said:


> I've noticed a lot of folks discussing whether or not one needs a good holder when breaking boards.
> 
> How important is having a good holder when breaking? Do they need to be trained, or can anyone hold boards for breaking? How many boards should be comfortable held before a machine for holding should be used?


 

If you are speed breaking the board, a two year old can old the board between their fingers.

If power breaking, you need the person, or persons, to be rock solid and good holds on the board (and look away from the boards so no splinters get in their eyes.)

But you also need the one breaking TO BE ACCURATE! I've seen one man get a broken finger holding a board and getting kicked in the finger. I've seen several, including myself, get bruises when the kicker missed the middle of the board (heck, some missed the boards on jumpkicks and kicked ME!

Deaf


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## Kacey (May 1, 2009)

IcemanSK said:


> Thanks for this Miles.
> 
> I like the idea of letting the holders know when to "lock out": rather than letting them stand there.
> 
> For StuartA, Earl Weiss, Kacey & any others who use a board holding "machine" in breaking. (I assumed Kacey does as it seems to be more of an ITF-style thing). Do you make them yourselves, or can you buy them somewhere? How many boards can can hold? What's the usual minimum number of boards you'll hold before saying, "ok, time for the holder?" (eg. At 4 boards do you say, "it's time?") What are the advantages & disadvantages of these holders?



It depends on the break; for speed breaks, boards are held by hand, while for power breaks, especially anything over several boards, boards are placed in a holder.

As has been said, you can buy them - but I inherited mine from my instructor; it's a pretty simple box made of 2x4s and plywood.  The holder is then held against a solid wall.


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## Earl Weiss (May 2, 2009)

K31 said:


> Do you have any pictures of a completed holder?


 

I will see if I can take some and post them. Looks pretty much like the illustration in the instructions. 

Have had dozens if not hundreds of people make them from the instructions.


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## Stac3y (May 4, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> But you also need the one breaking TO BE ACCURATE! I've seen one man get a broken finger holding a board and getting kicked in the finger. I've seen several, including myself, get bruises when the kicker missed the middle of the board (heck, some missed the boards on jumpkicks and kicked ME!
> 
> Deaf


 
Yeah, I took all the skin off my instructor's knuckles the first time I tried to break with a kick. Embarrassing.


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## Earl Weiss (May 5, 2009)

K31 said:


> Do you have any pictures of a completed holder?


 
I tried to put photos in this reply. When I click the photo icon at the top of the reply box I just get a noise "Boop" . If you tell me how to post the phot I will. Otherwise, e-mail me at EWeisstkd@aol.com and I will send photos.


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## granfire (May 5, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> I tried to put photos in this reply. When I click the photo icon at the top of the reply box I just get a noise "Boop" . If you tell me how to post the phot I will. Otherwise, e-mail me at EWeisstkd@aol.com and I will send photos.






Try hosting them on Photobucket or webshots and link them. Then you can use the insert image function.


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## Earl Weiss (May 5, 2009)

Ok, Try This:

http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww35/EarlWeiss/?action=tageditmany


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## Earl Weiss (May 5, 2009)

No Boards to show detail and 7 Boards to show how they are held.
You can remove the rods and stand it on the floor for downward breaks.


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## Miles (May 6, 2009)

Thanks for posting those pictures and the instructions Earl!  I am thinking of having my prosaically-challenged black belt candidates build a board holder rather than write a paper.....hmmmmm......


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