# Ali can never be the greatest?



## LeftchopFTW (Jan 21, 2016)

Hey guys just a thread on who really is the greatest boxer of all time?

Myself I am a Karate teacher, but my real passion is watching boxing.

When I think of the greatest boxer I do not think the conventional generic answer of Ali for many reasons: 

Firstly, and it sounds stupid he only fought at one weight.
Secondly when fighting Frazier he lost when it was for a world title. When Ali beat him there was no world title and/or pressure as he had already lost before.
He had 3 fights with Ken Norton and having watched all 3 I find it incredible he got a decision out of any let alone winning two of them.
He lost to Spinks albeit this was towards the end of his career, however it doesnt change the fact Spinks had 7/8 professional fights before and did not even come in with a 100% win record. 
To be a great boxer firstly your record must speak for itself in which his did not vs someone like Mayweather who beat more world champs, more #1, and at far more weights. 

Someone who make a hell of a lot more sense is Roy Jones Jr. This guy was undefeated and then got disqualified, as a result he could no longer strive for a perfect record. This allowed him go from Middleweight to Super Middleweight to Light Heavyweight to Heavyweight and become a world champion in each which is unheard of. Granted now he has lost his mind and thinks he is Russian.

All I am trying to get out is Ali was not as good as everyone makes out.

Would like responses.

LCFTW


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## elder999 (Jan 21, 2016)

*Jack Johnson.*


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## ballen0351 (Jan 21, 2016)

elder999 said:


> *Jack Johnson.*


You went WAYYYYY back lol


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 21, 2016)

but...but.... Ali said he was


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## ShortBridge (Jan 21, 2016)

The definitive discussion on the topic:


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 21, 2016)

I think when people get into these discussions, their definitions matter.  Was Harry Houdini the greatest stage magician of all time?  I don't know, but when I am asked to name a famous magician, his name is the one that comes to mind for me.  Others might think first of David Copperfield or Chriss Angel, etc.  I'd say one definition of 'greatest' is therefore the name you leave behind.  Ali hasn't boxed in nearly a generation, but his name is still top-of-mind for many.

Another definition of 'greatest' might be what a person contributed.  Ali was certainly responsible for a resurgence in public interest in boxing, like no one in a very long time before or after him.  For that matter, like him or hate him, Mike Tyson had a similar effect.  Do their contributions to the popularity of the sport count as 'greatest'?

Another definition might be win/loss record, or rounds won versus rounds lost, or overall championships won, or division(s) they fought in, who their opponents were, and so on.  When it comes to arguing stats, you can always find someone who has a different view of who the 'greatest' was, based on stats that they think are important that you don't, and that can be in any sport.

I'm not a huge boxing fan, certainly no expert.  I have always liked George Foreman, whether he was 'the greatest' or not.  But it appears he is not top of anyone's list but mine.  I certainly hold a very high opinion of Ali as well.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 21, 2016)

Very good points, Bill.

Most 22 year olds getting out of university with jazz performance degrees have learned to play Charlie Parker's solos note-for-note and breath-for-breath. They can also do other things that maybe he didn't do and are usually healthier and less likely to self implode than Bird was. But, he (and a few others) invented that style and changed music forever. He wasn't taught do that, he worked tirelessly and found those ideas and that expression on his own and whether you know it or not, we're all better for it.

You have to look at what someone did in the context of their time and place to fully appreciate their contribution. Ali was not only a major boxing figure, but I think, an important figure in American history.

...and also all that stuff from the barbershop clip...


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## Buka (Jan 21, 2016)

For me, it's Harry Greb. But I could go on and on about other greats.

And there are other factors that might or might not be considered. Ali came at an interesting time. He did interesting things. Was stripped of his title. And you mentioned Frazier - that first fight with Joe Frazier was of huge social, racial, political and sport importance, haven't seen anything like it since, nothing even close. Man, talk about pressure!

That fight was so big do you know who Life Magazine had as it's official ringside photographer? Frank Sinatra. Might not mean much to some, but trust me, that's big.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 9, 2016)

LeftchopFTW said:


> To be a great boxer firstly your record must speak for itself in which his did not vs someone like Mayweather who beat more world champs, more #1, and at far more weights.



Professional sports are not just about win/loss records though.  It is also entertainment and they are entertainers.  Ali was very good in the ring, but he was also entertaining when he fought.  Mayweather fights put non-fans to sleep.  He was entertaining in interviews, had a talent for working the press.  

Put all the pieces to being a successful professional boxer together and I think Ali is in the running.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 9, 2016)

To me, Jack Dempsey is the greatest. Absolutely amazing boxer who only lost his title because he decided to take a 3 year hiatus between fights


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## Rayrob (Feb 9, 2016)

You have to weigh up who was around to fight at the time and Ali fought some fantastic  boxers. He had a modern fluid style that most modern boxers try to emulate.  So its Ali for me.


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## Jenna (Feb 10, 2016)

LeftchopFTW said:


> Hey guys just a thread on who really is the greatest boxer of all time?
> 
> Myself I am a Karate teacher, but my real passion is watching boxing.
> 
> ...


Is there a chance that by deconstructing Ali in the way you have that you can miss much of what makes Ali in the eyes of many a stand out sportsman? 

George Foreman on Ali


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## elder999 (Feb 10, 2016)

In all seriousness, aside from his showmanship, his articulate nature, and his public stance on the Viet Nam war (and what it cost him, and his grace throughout) there's a real impact on the sport itself.....the first of the 20th century superbouts, and a "golden age" of heavyweight boxing, which came after a forced three year layoff due to his being systematically stripped of his license to box by every state-and he was a different fighter than the one who defeated Sonny Liston et. al.....

Of course, there's also his shuffle and his jab-his jab is the most imitated (never *duplicated*) punch in boxing: if you look at Larry Holmes, a former Ali sparring partner, you see Ali's jab....which brings us back to Jack Johnson, the man Ali imitated.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 10, 2016)




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## JR 137 (Feb 11, 2016)

Best of all time and greatest of all time aren't the same thing.  Greatest has a lot to do with what the person did inside the ring/field/court/rink/etc, as well as outside.  Best is strictly inside.

Greatest and best both change the way the sport is played, making everyone else go back to the drawing board and play catch-up.  Revolutionizing the game.

Greatest means you did that, got people to watch who had no interest in the sport, and became a household name (not because you were a train wreck).

Ali arguably brought more attention to boxing than anyone else before or since because of his actions in and out of the ring.

All experts I've heard easily claim he was the greatest.  Many claim others were better in the ring.  I've heard Sugar Ray Robinson was the best by many experts more than I've heard Ali.

I only "rank" fighters (and other athletes) who I've seen fight during my era, as seeing video from decades ago isn't the same as seeing it happen while it's being played out.

The best since I've watched is Julio Cesar Chavez. He could box, he could fight; he'd hit at will, and he'd take very little punishment.   His footwork, punches, angles, timing, and well, everything were textbook.  He'd fought over 100 fights (without googling, give or take a few) before he was beat the first time.  Many were no-name fighters in Mexico, but he beat the best every time too.  He was the knockout artist - he wore fighters down to the point where he didn't have to beat them with a pure knockout punch, typically getting a KO in the 7-9th rounds.  Many fighters quit between rounds.  The end of his career kind of tarnished his his complete dominance.  He was too old and it showed.  But that was only his last handful of fights against guys half his age at their peak.

Just my opinions.  I'm no expert.


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## Buka (Feb 11, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Best of all time and greatest of all time aren't the same thing.  Greatest has a lot to do with what the person did inside the ring/field/court/rink/etc, as well as outside.  Best is strictly inside.
> 
> Greatest and best both change the way the sport is played, making everyone else go back to the drawing board and play catch-up.  Revolutionizing the game.
> 
> ...



Well said, bro. You're dead on about Robinson, too.


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## AdhamPitbullKabil (May 12, 2016)

One Word *TYSON*


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## SenseiHitman (May 31, 2016)

When I was young Iron Mike Tyson was the champ and he was the best of his era, and he was just a boy at the time, he had a jab that could kill a man. Yes, a jab.  In my lifetime, he was the best, and yes I am old enough to have seen Ali fight as well.  As far as the best boxer of all time????  my vote is for "The Brown Bomber"  Joe Louis.  He represented his country at a time when much pride was at stake and I watched him fight in an old documentary about his life and wow! not only did he have a rock solid body, he really could control the situation with both power and positioning what a fighter. If I remember right, he only lost like 3 pro fights.  Yeah his last comeback/fight against Marciano was a big mistake, but man thats the way of the fighter you fight till you go down.


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## Kickboxer101 (Jun 6, 2016)

There's no such thing as the greatest. That title is simply opinion or hype by the fans or the promoters. Fightings is ever changing and you can't say Ali is the greatest because he hasn't beaten every boxer on earth no one can ever be known as the one and only best ever as there will always be new fighters and we'll never how the older generations or future generations will do against them. Everyone can have their opinion on who's the best but there's simply no definitive answer to that question


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 6, 2016)

AdhamPitbullKabil said:


> One Word *TYSON*


Maybe the best puncher, of all time, but he got schooled by a boxer.


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## JR 137 (Jun 6, 2016)

Best and greatest aren't the same thing.  Best is inside the ring; greatest is a combination of inside and outside the ring.

The greatest ones (Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali, Bruce Lee, etc.) are household names.  They're even recognized by people who know next to nothing about their sport.  They bring positive attention to their sport and inspire people.

Most (if not all) experts claim Ali was the greatest.  And many of them claim there are better boxers out there.

Barry Bonds is considered by many experts to be the best baseball player ever (even before his steroid days). Not a single expert in their right mind would argue he's the greatest (even if he retired before his steroid use).

The best or greatest of all time doesn't mean the best or greatest that will ever be; it simply means the best or greatest so far.  And the best doesn't necessarily mean someone who'll beat everybody; it means someone who's capable of beating more people than anyone else.

All IMO.


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## DaveB (Jun 7, 2016)

RIP Muhammad Ali - the only boxer to hit as.hard out of the ring as he did inside it.

The Greatest of all time.


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## Buka (Jun 7, 2016)

I imagine we could debate boxing skills or fighting power until the cows come home. But to the younger fighters here, I sincerely hope you all live to be a hundred. And when you are a hundred years old I don't think you'll have ever seen such an ado made by the passing of any other boxer.


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