# How is the stop-format kumite done in training without a referee?



## Acronym (Aug 29, 2020)

In the stop format at competition, you have a referee stopping and then judges evaluating who hit first. How does it work in the dojo training when the two of you are on your own?

 Isn't it hard to know who won each exchange? Doesn't it all get a bit blurry?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 29, 2020)

The honor system and respecting your partner pretty much do it.

In those cases, winning is pretty low on the importance scale.  It’s about training and learning and having fun.


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## CB Jones (Aug 29, 2020)

Where my son trains the instructor is a big proponent for competing....but at the school 90% of the sparring is continuous 2-3 minute rounds (switching partners each round).  Score is not kept.

You know when you get hit and you know when you land.


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## Acronym (Aug 29, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> Where my son trains the instructor is a big proponent for competing....but at the school 90% of the sparring is continuous 2-3 minute rounds (switching partners each round).  Score is not kept.
> 
> You know when you get hit and you know when you land.



Is that the norm or the exception to make it easier, having them do continuous?


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## Acronym (Aug 29, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> You know when you get hit and you know when you land.



That's irrelevant since it's the one who lands first who gets the point, and it's often the case that they both land.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 29, 2020)

Generally people can acknowledge when they were the ones who hit first/last. It hasn't been an issue for me in point sparring or in fencing (similar rules, except both people hitting happens more often, and we have to be able to tell who hits first or if they're at the same time). The only times it is, is when either you have someone new who gets tunnel-visioned, or someone super-competitive who doesn't like acknowledging when they lost a touch/point.

Obviously it's not perfect, and sometimes there's a debate, but a: judges aren't perfect either, and b: in the grand scheme of things, 1 point/touch that isn't clear out of 20 doesn't matter all that much in sparring.


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## Acronym (Aug 29, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Generally people can acknowledge when they were the ones who hit first/last. It hasn't been an issue for me in point sparring or in fencing (similar rules, except both people hitting happens more often, and we have to be able to tell who hits first or if they're at the same time). The only times it is, is when either you have someone new who gets tunnel-visioned, or someone super-competitive who doesn't like acknowledging when they lost a touch/point.
> 
> Obviously it's not perfect, and sometimes there's a debate, but a: judges aren't perfect either, and b: in the grand scheme of things, 1 point/touch that isn't clear out of 20 doesn't matter all that much in sparring.



It looks to me between equally matched practitioners that they tend to be fractions of a second between each other when landing. This is also why many former point fighters left the sport because judges make mistakes all the time depending on where they are looking.


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## Acronym (Aug 29, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> (similar rules, except both people hitting happens more often, and we have to be able to tell who hits first or if they're at the same time).



I don't know why you claim that happens more often. What is the difference in rules?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't know why you claim that happens more often. What is the difference in rules?


I should have clarified-that's just based on my experience from doing both. I'd say at least half of touches in epee, assuming both people are around the same skill level, ends up being both people 'touching' each other. When I did point sparring it was less than half. But like I said, just my experience, not anything definitive.

As for rules in epee (I'm not including foil/sabre since right of way complicates this), ignoring that it's a weapon, electronic (if you have the equipment), and you can only go back and forth, the relevant difference is that there are two ways to score. The first is land a touch on the other person more than 40 milliseconds before the other person does. In which case you get a point and they don't. The second is land a touch within a 40 millisecond timeframe of when the other fencer also lands a touch, in which case you both get a point. If you land one but its 50 ms after the other person, only they get a point.


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## Acronym (Aug 29, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I should have clarified-that's just based on my experience from doing both. I'd say at least half of touches in epee, assuming both people are around the same skill level, ends up being both people 'touching' each other. When I did point sparring it was less than half. But like I said, just my experience, not anything definitive.
> 
> As for rules in epee (I'm not including foil/sabre since right of way complicates this), ignoring that it's a weapon, electronic (if you have the equipment), and you can only go back and forth, the relevant difference is that there are two ways to score. The first is land a touch on the other person more than 40 milliseconds before the other person does. In which case you get a point and they don't. The second is land a touch within a 40 millisecond timeframe of when the other fencer also lands a touch, in which case you both get a point. If you land one but its 50 ms after the other person, only they get a point.



 Who keeps track of how many milliseconds it took for a punch to land? Do you use instant replay?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It looks to me between equally matched practitioners that they tend to be fractions of a second between each other when landing. This is also why many former point fighters left the sport because judges make mistakes all the time depending on where they are looking.


The key part here is that the fighters themselves recognize a lot of the time when judges make a mistake. It's a lot easier to tell which came first-the sensation of something touching/hitting you vs. you hitting/touching something, then it is to look at the two and tell. Assuming the practitioner doesn't have some sort of neurological issue that messes it up. There's a slight bit of leeway with that (being hit within 10 ms of hitting someone, you probably won't be able to tell which came first), but a judge also wouldn't be able to tell that. 

I know in the competitions I did as a kid, if both hit at the same time, it would be considered a 'clash' and no points would be given. That's basically a way of determining when the strikes are in that range where it's too close to call. I tried looking it up online, but I'm not sure how the electronic TKD gear handles those.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Who keeps track of how many milliseconds it took for a punch to land? Do you use instant replay?


So to clarify, that was for epee, not point sparring. One of the differences I had mentioned.

And if we're dry fencing, no one in particular is keeping track. After a while you end up being able to just tell when a touch was/wasn't within the limit for it most of the time. We actually did test a couple times with a camera app to see if we were right with our assumptions for dry fencing (important since we dry fenced a lot), and in the tests we got it right every time.


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## Acronym (Aug 29, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> . I tried looking it up online, but I'm not sure how the electronic TKD gear handles those.



It doesn’t. The style of TKD that you are referring to is full contact and doesn’t care who hit first. It all counts. The head gear was put in place to avoid corrupt decision, so there is nothing in the hands of judges because the helmets keep track of the scores.

There's also continuous semi contact taekwondo without helmets and there it doesn’t matter who hit first either.


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## Acronym (Aug 29, 2020)

Ironically, kicks to the face score in semi contact Taekwondo but not in Olympic Taekwondo, because the helmet can't register the impact. 

This is also why todays TKD in the olympics is very watered down.


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## Acronym (Aug 29, 2020)

@Jaeimseu  If a kick to the face results in knockout, do you win or is it NC?

This I'm not sure about. One would think that if it scores as a KO, you would still see a lof of face kick attempts, instead of all those axe kicks to the top of the head


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 29, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> The honor system and respecting your partner pretty much do it.


This is the answer - end of discussion (when in a friendly self-scored match).

As novices should not be sparring without supervision, advanced practitioners know without even being hit.  They know if they were out of position and open to get hit before the strike gets halfway to the target - Each knows the other knows the truth of it.  If both hit so close in time its hard to know who got there first, it doesn't matter - call it a tie and resume the workout.  No big thing.

Anyone who makes it a thing is just being difficult and demeans himself, showing they don't understand the spirit of MA.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That's irrelevant since it's the one who lands first who gets the point, and it's often the case that they both land.


It's generally not that difficult to tell (as one of the participants) which landed first - your strike or the one that hit you.


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## Acronym (Aug 29, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It's generally not that difficult to tell (as one of the participants) which landed first - your strike or the one that hit you.



It is difficult since techniques that don't touch but are very close to touching, might also score points.

"Distancing also relates to the point at which the completed technique comes to rest on or near the target. A punch or kick that comes somewhere between skin touch and 5 centimetres from the face, head, or neck may be said to have the correct distance."


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It is difficult since techniques that don't touch but are very close to touching, might also score points.
> 
> "Distancing also relates to the point at which the completed technique comes to rest on or near the target. A punch or kick that comes somewhere between skin touch and 5 centimetres from the face, head, or neck may be said to have the correct distance."


In my experience, near-touches generally aren’t counted in friendly sparring. Except, of course, when it’s clear it was pulled to avoid hard contact.


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## Acronym (Aug 29, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> In my experience, near-touches generally aren’t counted in friendly sparring. Except, of course, when it’s clear it was pulled to avoid hard contact.



It seems strange why it would count in tournaments. I think it refers to when you've hit it so cleanly and fast, yet didn't touch, that your opponent was paralyzed by it and the judges could clearly see that you exhibited outstanding control. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense to score techniques that don't land.


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## CB Jones (Aug 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Is that the norm or the exception to make it easier, having them do continuous?



It is the norm.  In training, the focus is about improving their application of karate....not just scoring points.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It seems strange why it would count in tournaments. I think it refers to when you've hit it so cleanly and fast, yet didn't touch, that your opponent was paralyzed by it and the judges could clearly see that you exhibited outstanding control. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense to score techniques that don't land.



Amazingly, Acronym got this one mostly right.  What was missed in this and his earlier post was that distance (being close to actual contact) is not the whole story.  A vital element is missing -* potential* contact.  (At least in older traditional karate tournaments.)

If I punch and stop a couple of inches from the opponent's chin *with my arm fully extended, *or over-leaning (bad form) there should be no point.  I was short of my target with no potential to actually effectively land it.  However, *if my punching arm is bent* a couple of inches, then there *is* potential contact had I wished it, and the point should be scored.  Contact was not made because I was too far away, but because I decided to stop it, showing I could have hit him had I wanted to.  *This is the key point *

Gerry hit on this point - I just felt it should be expanded upon.  Maybe he just "pulled" it and didn't land it that hard.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It seems strange why it would count in tournaments. I think it refers to when you've hit it so cleanly and fast, yet didn't touch, that your opponent was paralyzed by it and the judges could clearly see that you exhibited outstanding control. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense to score techniques that don't land.


I don't know, but I'd suspect that rule is there to allow that judges may not be able to tell the difference between a near-touch and an actual touch (a problem for judging when all that's required is a touch), to avoid the "I hit him" - "no you didn't!" moments.


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

Is it true that stop formats create muscle memory that impairs one's performance when trying out continuous, hard sparring?

Bill Wallace thought it was better to not have a background in sparring at all if you're alternative is the stop format, heading into full contact but that’s just his opinion.


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## CB Jones (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Is it true that stop formats create muscle memory that impairs one's performance when trying out continuous, hard sparring?
> 
> Bill Wallace thought it was better to not have a background in sparring at all if you're alternative is the stop format, heading into full contact but that’s just his opinion.



Our way of thinking....

If you train continuous sparring you still get better at point stop because its easy to stop striking when the judge yells stop.

But you don't get good at continuous sparring by predominately training point stop.

I believe training in continuous sparring is one of the reasons my son has been successful at competition.  I think it just makes you a better fighter and competitor.

In training he is focusing on improving on all aspects of fighting (the entry, maintaining spacing, attacking with combos , and the exit).


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> Our way of thinking....
> 
> If you train continuous sparring you still get better at point stop because its easy to stop striking when the judge yells stop.
> 
> ...



Not everybody does both.


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

I would like to try stop formats but open style Karate tournaments aren't as ubiquitous anymore and you have to get to orange or brown belt before free sparring in Shotokan classes.


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## CB Jones (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Not everybody does both.



Then they are missing out.


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## CB Jones (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I would like to try stop formats but open style Karate tournaments aren't as ubiquitous anymore and you have to get to orange or brown belt before free sparring in Shotokan classes.



Where do you live?


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> Then they are missing out.



Yes they obviously are but does it induce muscle memory or can a fighter make a switch to continuous fighting just as easily as someone who never sparred any format.


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> Where do you live?



Sweden. The days of open style tournaments are long gone. The Karate craze is over. We don't even have separate classes in Taekwondo. White belts are mixed with black belts


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## CB Jones (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yes they obviously are but does it induce muscle memory or can a fighter make a switch to continuous fighting just as easily as someone who never sparred any format.



Your muscle memory will be based on your training so competing in point stop competition isn't effected since you spend way more time in training.


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## CB Jones (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Sweden. The days of open style tournaments are long gone. The Karate craze is over. We don't even have separate classes in Taekwondo. White belts are mixed with black belts



Ah...in the US we still have a lot of open style competitions,  pre-Covid my son would compete in 16-20 tournaments a year.

I could point you to some good tournaments over here but I can't help you in Sweden.


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> Ah...in the US we still have a lot of open style competitions,  pre-Covid my son would compete in 16-20 tournaments a year.
> 
> I could point you to some good tournaments over here but I can't help you in Sweden.



But I need a black belt first, right?


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## CB Jones (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But I need a black belt first, right?



Nope.  Typically, Tournaments are set up in divisions based on skill level {beginner, intermediate, advanced, black belt) age, and size.


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> Nope.  Typically, Tournaments are set up in divisions based on skill level {beginner, intermediate, advanced, black belt) age, and size.



Here's an old one in Sweden. Do they still allow judo throws?


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

That one looks like a open style Kyokushin tournament since they aren't punching each other in the face even at close range.

That's the only male ITF Taekwondo World champion from Sweden in history, I think.


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## Danny T (Aug 30, 2020)

There are also a lot of continuous sparring with light contact as well as heavy contact tournaments. Categories are based on age, rank, training time, etc. Then of course there are the full contact Kickboxing tournaments and Muay Thai tournaments.


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## CB Jones (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Here's an old one in Sweden. Do they still allow judo throws?



The tournament circuits we compete at do not.  Typically, the matches are on hard surfaces


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Is it true that stop formats create muscle memory that impairs one's performance when trying out continuous, hard sparring?
> 
> Bill Wallace thought it was better to not have a background in sparring at all if you're alternative is the stop format, heading into full contact but that’s just his opinion.


It’s definitely true that it can. Another member on here (a cop) posted once of a cop he worked with almost handing a knife back after disarming someone, because that’s what they did in the MA school where he trained.

But it won’t be every time or every person. It’s a percentages thing, and we can only guess at what the actual percentage is.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Not everybody does both.


If you’re not doing both, and want to train specifically for competition, you’re probably best served by spending most of your time close to the rules you’ll compete under. You’ll develop more consistent strategies to take advantage of the rules.


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## dvcochran (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It doesn’t. The style of TKD that you are referring to is full contact and doesn’t care who hit first. It all counts. The head gear was put in place to avoid corrupt decision, so there is nothing in the hands of judges because the helmets keep track of the scores.





Acronym said:


> Ironically, kicks to the face score in semi contact Taekwondo but not in Olympic Taekwondo, because the helmet can't register the impact.



You contradicted yourself in these two posts.
Electronic hogu's and headgear score points accordingly based on location And force. A touch does Not score. Kicks to parts of the head/face are not only scored but have a higher point value based on where the kick landed, what technique was used, and balance of technique. It is the judges/scoring groups responsibility to identify what kick is thrown which also determines point value. 
Yes, knock downs count as long as offensive balance is maintained and knockouts end a match in a win as long as a legal technique caused the knockout. There can also be TKO's which are much more common that true KO's. 
Electronic scoring is becoming more prevalent and is changing the role of judging. There are 3 grades of KKW/WT referee's if memory serves. It is shifting more from "did a competitor score" to "how did they score" and player safety.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yes they obviously are but does it induce muscle memory or can a fighter make a switch to continuous fighting just as easily as someone who never sparred any format.


If you’ve never done continuous sparring, it’ll take some time to train the strategies you need and to stop stopping. I see this with students who come to me with either a point-stop background or a lot of trade off experience (where folks get into the habit of “I attack, now you attack”).


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> If you’ve never done continuous sparring, it’ll take some time to train the strategies you need and to stop stopping. I see this with students who come to me with either a point-stop background or a lot of trade off experience (where folks get into the habit of “I attack, now you attack”).



So what happens is that they do the same thing or how is it manifested?


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> You contradicted yourself in these two posts.
> Electronic hogu's and headgear score points accordingly based on location And force. A touch does Not score. Kicks to parts of the head/face are not only scored but have a higher point value based on where the kick landed, what technique was used, and balance of technique. It is the judges/scoring groups responsibility to identify what kick is thrown which also determines point value.
> Yes, knock downs count as long as offensive balance is maintained and knockouts end a match in a win as long as a legal technique caused the knockout. There can also be TKO's which are much more common that true KO's.
> Electronic scoring is becoming more prevalent and is changing the role of judging. There are 3 grades of KKW/WT referee's if memory serves. It is shifting more from "did a competitor score" to "how did they score" and player safety.



That's not true. Kicks to the face in the *Olympics* do not score, unless the helmet registered the impact, which is unlikely since it's designed to register direct impact.

Kicks to the face in the amateur levels still score however


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> If you’re not doing both, and want to train specifically for competition, you’re probably best served by spending most of your time close to the rules you’ll compete under. You’ll develop more consistent strategies to take advantage of the rules.



I don't want to do anything. My background is continuous and that's fine  with me. I was curious about guys who directly step into continuous from stop formats


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It’s definitely true that it can. Another member on here (a cop) posted once of a cop he worked with almost handing a knife back after disarming someone, because that’s what they did in the MA school where he trained.
> 
> .



Lol...


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> So what happens is that they do the same thing or how is it manifested?


Yeah. So I'll use the example of folks with a habit of trading attacks. I teach finding an opening and staying on offense as long as there's still an opening, as a principle. Students used to trading off will find an opening, strike once or twice, then back off, even if I don't close the opening. It takes a while to erase that habit, but I start that process pretty early.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't want to do anything. My background is continuous and that's fine  with me. I was curious about guys who directly step into continuous from stop formats


Sorry for the confusion - that was the generic "you" (where proper English used to use "one", which was much clearer).


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah. So I'll use the example of folks with a habit of trading attacks. I teach finding an opening and staying on offense as long as there's still an opening, as a principle. Students used to trading off will find an opening, strike once or twice, then back off, even if I don't close the opening. It takes a while to erase that habit, but I start that process pretty early.



Do you notice that power is also underused? Do they have a hard time adjusting to that as well?


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## CB Jones (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't want to do anything. My background is continuous and that's fine  with me. I was curious about guys who directly step into continuous from stop formats



If they don't train continuous....they struggle.

You can usually overwhelm them with combinations and pressure.


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

The problems I've heard when it comes judging comparing light to no contact stop format with semi contact is that the stop format guys may even fake a KIA, and the judges buy it.

 Wheras in the continuous, semi contact circuit, the level of contact permitted is inconsistent. And it gets tricky with kicks involved.

I had a world competitor in my Taekwondo club who kicked out someones mouth piece out and got disqualified for excessive force, even though the guy was fine. Typical sissy Swedish culture.

Whereas that type of contact is normal in World events. You might even win from a knockout if a person gets up or runs into it. And you can certainly knock him down. So it's not like continuous sparring gets rid of bad decisions.


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> If they don't train continuous....they struggle.
> 
> You can usually overwhelm them with combinations and pressure.



I actually sparred one Karate competitor who joined our Taekwondo club and he was very hesitant in our rule-set. He didn't let his hand or feet go. And didn't move around either. 

That's clearly muscle memory from a stop format where you stare at each other and wait...


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## Acronym (Aug 30, 2020)

They kicked a lot more in the old days in those stop formats compared to todays JKA and WKF championships.

 I think they've refined the blitzing tactics with tsuki/straight punches to a higher level these days and let kicks take on a secondary importance.

Granted not everybody in this clip are Karatekas but Joe Lewis certainly was and he fought like a Taekwondo fighter. I approve of his side kick!


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## dvcochran (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That's not true. Kicks to the face in the *Olympics* do not score, unless the helmet registered the impact, which is unlikely since it's designed to register direct impact.
> 
> Kicks to the face in the amateur levels still score however


Oh, they score. Even it they do not register as points.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Do you notice that power is also underused? Do they have a hard time adjusting to that as well?


Folks start out with what I call "light, technical sparring", so there's not much power used in sparring at that point. The ones I'm referring to all came from a classical Karate training (Shotokan or Shorin-ryu for most of them), and had no trouble generating reasonable power at the heavy bag.


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## _Simon_ (Aug 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Is it true that stop formats create muscle memory that impairs one's performance when trying out continuous, hard sparring?
> 
> Bill Wallace thought it was better to not have a background in sparring at all if you're alternative is the stop format, heading into full contact but that’s just his opinion.


I would say the more you do something, the more you get used to it.

I went from a few years in a 'non-contact' points sparring karate style, to having a break for a few years, to full contact karate (continuous sparring). The contact was something obviously more of the shock to get used to, but the continuous sparring style was easy to get used to. Even in the first style, when we sparred we still did so continuously. We didn't stop and reset, but I guess we were still doing that 'one-hit' and retreat style. But it in no way meant we didn't do combinations.

And from there To THEN actively competing in point sparring tournaments the last few years. Found no issues adapting to the different sparring styles.


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## JR 137 (Aug 30, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It’s definitely true that it can. Another member on here (a cop) posted once of a cop he worked with almost handing a knife back after disarming someone, because that’s what they did in the MA school where he trained.
> 
> But it won’t be every time or every person. It’s a percentages thing, and we can only guess at what the actual percentage is.


An acquaintance of mine teaches defensive tactics at the local police academy. He’s had a handful of guys with a TKD background stop after hitting someone once. When asked why they stopped, one guy said “it was a point.” The instructor then replied “do you see a f’ing scoreboard?”


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> An acquaintance of mine teaches defensive tactics at the local police academy. He’s had a handful of guys with a TKD background stop after hitting someone once. When asked why they stopped, one guy said “it was a point.” The instructor then replied “do you see a f’ing scoreboard?”



I guess he was so satisfied with the kick because there is no rule that you have to stop in TKD after the first blow.


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> I would say the more you do something, the more you get used to it.
> 
> I went from a few years in a 'non-contact' points sparring karate style, to having a break for a few years, to full contact karate (continuous sparring). The contact was something obviously more of the shock to get used to, but the continuous sparring style was easy to get used to. Even in the first style, when we sparred we still did so continuously. We didn't stop and reset, but I guess we were still doing that 'one-hit' and retreat style. But it in no way meant we didn't do combinations.
> 
> And from there To THEN actively competing in point sparring tournaments the last few years. Found no issues adapting to the different sparring styles.



Which Karate style has non contact sparring?


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Folks start out with what I call "light, technical sparring", so there's not much power used in sparring at that point. The ones I'm referring to all came from a classical Karate training (Shotokan or Shorin-ryu for most of them), and had no trouble generating reasonable power at the heavy bag.



What is it that you train that they transitioned to?


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Oh, they score. Even it they do not register as points.



I don't know what that means. If it doesn't register as points it isn't worth anything, with the possible exception of a knockout.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't know what that means. If it doesn't register as points it isn't worth anything, with the possible exception of a knockout.


I think he’s referring to the effect on the opponent, who likely puts more attention in guarding that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> What is it that you train that they transitioned to?


It’s tough to describe. The base of the curriculum comes from Nihon Goshin Aikido, Including the traditional approach to the core techniques (with some adjustments). But I have a much heavier focus on striking than is typical in NGA, and leverage the Judo roots of the are more than most. There are bits of BJJ, Filipino martial arts, and other stuff present, where my dabblings in other arts influenced my own approach.


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It’s tough to describe. The base of the curriculum comes from Nihon Goshin Aikido, Including the traditional approach to the core techniques (with some adjustments). But I have a much heavier focus on striking than is typical in NGA, and leverage the Judo roots of the are more than most. There are bits of BJJ, Filipino martial arts, and other stuff present, where my dabblings in other arts influenced my own approach.



Sounds like Ju jutsu or Taijitsu which mixes joint manipulation with striking.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Sounds like Ju jutsu or Taijitsu which mixes joint manipulation with striking.


NGA has influence primarily from Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu (arguably, just the jujutsu, but that’s another discussion), and also from Shotokan, Judo, and some other bits the founder had experience in. Much of my striking would be unfamiliar to others in NGA, as would all of the weapon work.


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## dvcochran (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't know what that means. If it doesn't register as points it isn't worth anything, with the possible exception of a knockout.


So, if someone lands a good kick to your face you do Not notice it because it does not register electronically? Sir, that is very flawed thinking or you have not really been smacked yet.


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> So, if someone lands a good kick to your face you do Not notice it because it does not register electronically? Sir, that is very flawed thinking or you have not really been smacked yet.



It isn't worth anything in the points and they are not running for it anymore.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 31, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> Our way of thinking....
> 
> If you train continuous sparring you still get better at point stop because its easy to stop striking when the judge yells stop.
> 
> ...


While continuous sparring has some benefits (endurance and toughness), it also IMO has its drawbacks.  From what I've seen, it tends to get sloppy as pure aggressiveness and quantity of strikes takes over from good, clean technique and well executed 2-3 move combinations. 

Defense seems to be greatly minimized.  Even in MMA they don't launch sustained, non-stop attacks.  The well-landed strikes are usually the result of clean, planned, 1, 2, or 3 moves at the most, the fighters then disengaging, resetting their defense and position before re-engaging - much like single point sparring in this respect.

Shadow boxing and heavy bag work can reduce weakness one may develop from exclusively single point sparring, but personally, I'll put quality and precision of strikes and tactics over quantity.


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> While continuous sparring has some benefits (endurance and toughness), it also IMO has its drawbacks.  From what I've seen, it tends to get sloppy as pure aggressiveness and quantity of strikes takes over from good, clean technique and well executed 2-3 move combinations.



It's an inevitably consequence of extended punch limits.

 you try and blitz out two lunging punches and then get out of there, but sometimes you get stuck in a tussle and that's were it's a lot of waving because the fighters are just waiting for the referee to seperate them without getting punched.

 If you haven't experienced superman punches before, you're bound to get caught. You'll see a competitor just make a skip up in the air, and you have no idea what he is doing, and he just says hello with a Flying punch right on the nose, and you feel like an idiot to fall for it. Then you learn from that of course and recognize the pattern of movement.

Pettis knocked out Thompson with it in the UFC.


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## CB Jones (Aug 31, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> While continuous sparring has some benefits (endurance and toughness), it also IMO has its drawbacks.  From what I've seen, it tends to get sloppy as pure aggressiveness and quantity of strikes takes over from good, clean technique and well executed 2-3 move combinations.
> 
> Defense seems to be greatly minimized.  Even in MMA they don't launch sustained, non-stop attacks.  The well-landed strikes are usually the result of clean, planned, 1, 2, or 3 moves at the most, the fighters then disengaging, resetting their defense and position before re-engaging - much like single point sparring in this respect.
> 
> Shadow boxing and heavy bag work can reduce weakness one may develop from exclusively single point sparring, but personally, I'll put quality and precision of strikes and tactics over quantity.



Let me clarify.... With continuous sparring I'm not talking about machine gun striking or brawling.

I'm talking about a 2-3 minute round where you are  sparring without stopping and resetting after each clash.

You are moving around the ring sparring like you would in a pro fight.  Controlling spacing, mixing it up with singles, counters, and combos, and changing tempo and the pace.  Pressing the action when you have the advantage and getting out any disadvantages you get in.

It is still quality .....there is just not a ref stopping the action after each exchange.


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## dvcochran (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It isn't worth anything in the points and they are not running for it anymore.


Yeah, you have not been smacked yet.


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## dvcochran (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It's an inevitably consequence of extended punch limits.
> 
> you try and blitz out two lunging punches and then get out of there, but sometimes you get stuck in a tussle and that's were it's a lot of waving because the fighters are just waiting for the referee to seperate them without getting punched.
> 
> ...


Clinching is all but banned in WT sparring. Something I sorely miss. There was a lot of good strategy for coming out of a clnich.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't know what that means. If it doesn't register as points it isn't worth anything, with the possible exception of a knockout.


I'm not a TKD guy, but I train with one of their top certified referees.  It is my understanding that electronic scoring is a big thing now in TKD competition, but does NOT replace human refs.  They are still needed to call certain points and help determine if the scoring hit is worth 1, 2, or 3? points.  There are still judgment calls to be made in other areas, too.

Being a TMA guy, myself, I have a bias against electronic scoring.  Why have umpires in baseball when balls and strikes can be called by a computer?  Why not hook everybody up with electronic sensors in all sports and compete in their sport online?  Even then, it comes down to people - someone has to change the batteries.


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## _Simon_ (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Which Karate style has non contact sparring?


There are styles out there haha. The one I did was a newer hybrid, very "family friendly" one, apparently contact is increased in higher grades but unsure if that's true


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I'm not a TKD guy, but I train with one of their top certified referees.  It is my understanding that electronic scoring is a big thing now in TKD competition, but does NOT replace human refs.  They are still needed to call certain points and help determine if the scoring hit is worth 1, 2, or 3? points.  There are still judgment calls to be made in other areas, too.
> 
> Being a TMA guy, myself, I have a bias against electronic scoring.  Why have umpires in baseball when balls and strikes can be called by a computer?  Why not hook everybody up with electronic sensors in all sports and compete in their sport online?  Even then, it comes down to people - someone has to change the batteries.


It does change the game (whatever game it is). Imagine if a pitcher never had the opportunity to adjust his pitch for the way a given umpire is calling strikes that day. I imagine there’s some of the same in point sparring competition.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> There are styles out there haha. The one I did was a newer hybrid, very "family friendly" one, apparently contact is increased in higher grades but unsure if that's true


I’m certain there are schools that go fully non-contact. I’ve seen demos that included none, and the participants “accepted” things that never would have landed, which looks to me like they’ve never done contact sparring. One of my instructors (NGA, not karate) went more and more that way over the years, with a similar result. (Oddly, his primary instructor seemed to go the opposite direction.)


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## _Simon_ (Sep 1, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I’m certain there are schools that go fully non-contact. I’ve seen demos that included none, and the participants “accepted” things that never would have landed, which looks to me like they’ve never done contact sparring. One of my instructors (NGA, not karate) went more and more that way over the years, with a similar result. (Oddly, his primary instructor seemed to go the opposite direction.)



Yeah ah right... I for sure can see the benefits: less injuries from impact, develop control, able to work more on certain things without fear of getting smashed... but while I was okay with it at the time, nowadays I need some contact at least. None doesn't make as much sense to me now when looking pros and cons.

And that being said, any tournament I've entered that has been "noncontact", was absolutely never no contact . Hit in the face and kicked multiple times haha. Especially when you're in one of the young bucks divisions, things get heated and everyone charges at each other! Hehe. Not me though of course!


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah ah right... I for sure can see the benefits: less injuries from impact, develop control, able to work more on certain things without fear of getting smashed... but while I was okay with it at the time, nowadays I need some contact at least. None doesn't make as much sense to me now when looking pros and cons.
> 
> And that being said, any tournament I've entered that has been "noncontact", was absolutely never no contact . Hit in the face and kicked multiple times haha. Especially when you're in one of the young bucks divisions, things get heated and everyone charges at each other! Hehe. Not me though of course!


There’s definitely room for zero-contact training, but I think in isolation (never including contact) leads inevitably to bad habits, assuming your intent is to learn to hit people.


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> There’s definitely room for zero-contact training, but I think in isolation (never including contact) leads inevitably to bad habits, assuming your intent is to learn to hit people.


Agree. It is very hard to simulate something when you know little to nothing about it.


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