# Mechanics of a punch: with body or without body



## dnovice (Apr 3, 2009)

(sidenote: this might be a bit advanced.)
Mook Jong Man's post on Bil jee pivoting brought this question, which i have been struggling with, to the forefront of my mind. 

Is it better to throw a punch with your hip lagging, simultaneously, or hip first then punch last. (of course the lag is only a fraction of a second.)?

*LAgging hip:* 
Now, in my mind the benefits to throwing a punch arm or upper body first with hip lagging is the initial acceleration from zero to 60(car terms, can't think of any other analogy.) This way if you have a long distance to travel before making contact your punch can  make it there shortest time, and right before impact or at close to the max velocity of your punch you root the punch to your legs by moving your hips. 

*Simulataneous upper and lower body movement:*
Its initial acceleration is slower since you are moving a larger mass (whole body versus just upper part.) 

I get this from the physics force formula Force=mass x acceleration. This basically says that to create a force, mass and initial acceleration is needed. Now so long as the force remains constant acceleration depends solely on mass. so the larger the mass the slower the acceleration. (a=f/m)

Although it has a slower acceleration, it would be prefered for very close quarters since you know for sure that your hip is behind your hit. This would be unlike the lagging hip in that you might not be able to connect upper body to lower body in time before the hit. 

*Lagging upper body:*
This is like a capeora kick but in reverse; you torque with you lower body, build tension and release that through the movement of the upper body. This most likely releases the most force at the max speed of the punch. 

This could be used in long distance. However, its telegraphed so one needs to trick opponent, or hide the move, for it to work. 

_What are your thoughts people??_


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Apr 3, 2009)

I think I understand better what you meant on that other thread now. The thing your are forgetting is that we keep our body unity for a reason; that is putting our whole body into the punch(increasing the mass of the punch). If you stand with your feet pararell to the wall, pivoted a bit to the side so your hip is at an 45 angle and you upper body is twisted so it's facing the wall you can't use your full body structure or at the very least it makes it very difficult. The force then, probably hits your shoulder or your back, which couses you to fall backwards in contrast to when you use your whole body structure in which case the force hits your heels. 

In reality we rearly punch with a pivot tho, becouse the number of the punches you can do is less than if your hips are stationary and facing the target. Thats why we mostly do chain punches from the arrow step stance or some do it from the YGKYM stance too. It is less powerful, but as I see it WC is not being about the most powerful or the fastest is about a compromise between the two so you get the best out of both ends of the spectre. For example the WC straight punch when done by the same person can't be as strong as a boxers corss with the back leg pushing of the ground, the hips twisting and the punch hurling forward. But as I said thats not even the point of WC in my eyes.

But all that aside what your saying is true in closed enviroment where there are no other factors to change. But I think that acctualy pivoting with the hip is faster then pivoting with the upper body. Afterall some big muscle groups are involved; basicly all your YGKYM muscles which include your inner thighes and your buttocks muscles. Thats not neceserely slower than the upper body twisting, which is a bit of an unnatural movement(the upper body wants to be where the hip is facing), enen tho you are moving a larger mass. Pivoting with the hip on the other hand is pretty natural in comparsion. When trying out, I personaly do it faster than if I pivot with the upper body. Thats basicly on what I realy base my whole argument  But I may be wrong.


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## dnovice (Apr 3, 2009)

Eru thanks for the reply. It is very hard to discuss this without pictures showing forces etc. But we are doing the best we can. lol. ok. 



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151116 said:
			
		

> I think I understand better what you meant on that other thread now. The thing your are forgetting is that we keep our body unity for a reason; that is putting our whole body into the punch(increasing the mass of the punch). If you stand with your feet pararell to the wall, pivoted a bit to the side so your hip is at an 45 angle and you upper body is twisted so it's facing the wall you can't use your full body structure or at the very least it makes it very difficult. The force then, probably hits your shoulder or your back, which couses you to fall backwards in contrast to when you use your whole body structure in which case the force hits your heels.


 
If i'm picturing what you're saying correctly you are right. However, thats not the kind of structure i'm refering to. What i'm refering to involves breaking the body unity like what you mentioned above but the crucial part is reassembling that body unity right before the hit to get that whole body mass behind the hit. 

ok, that was abstract, but thats the gist of what i was talking about.

In non abstract terms. Assuming you are facing your opponent, and he throws a left round house punch. You pivot to the right block his round house with a right biu sau and punch with your left hand. He then throws another round house, but this time with his right so now you pivot left and do a left Biu sau and right punch. These punches you throw come of a pivot. So long as the punch travels down your centerline and is lined up with your back foot, your body is behind the hit. 

Now, i believe if you move your hands and upperbody first your punch and block accelerate faster. Then right before impact or a fraction of a second after you move your upper body your hip follows suite and grounds your hit. This places your whole body behind the hit. So in short you break the body unity and then restore it at the end.



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151116 said:
			
		

> In reality we rearly punch with a pivot tho, becouse the number of the punches you can do is less than if your hips are stationary and facing the target.


 
I see. I'm guessing its a lineage thing then.



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151116 said:
			
		

> Thats why we mostly do chain punches from the arrow step stance or some do it from the YGKYM stance too. It is less powerful, but as I see it WC is not being about the most powerful or the fastest is about a compromise between the two so you get the best out of both ends of the spectre. For example the WC straight punch when done by the same person can't be as strong as a boxers corss with the back leg pushing of the ground, the hips twisting and the punch hurling forward. But as I said thats not even the point of WC in my eyes.


 
cool.



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151116 said:
			
		

> But all that aside what your saying is true in closed enviroment where there are no other factors to change. But I think that acctualy pivoting with the hip is faster then pivoting with the upper body. Afterall some big muscle groups are involved; basicly all your YGKYM muscles which include your inner thighes and your buttocks muscles.


 
Yes, you have some strong muscle groups pushing the hips. However, when you move the hips with the upper body as a unit it is a larger mass since total mass=upper body +hips... If you are only moving your upper body the equation becomes total mass=upper body (without the hips). 
Thats why i believe its faster to only move the upper body. Yes, the thigh muscles are among the strongest but it has a lot more to move, namely the hips and the upper body together.




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151116 said:
			
		

> Thats not neceserely slower than the upper body twisting, which is a bit of an unnatural movement(the upper body wants to be where the hip is facing),


 
exactly. And this is why you end the move with the hip facing the same direction. 




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151116 said:
			
		

> When trying out, I personaly do it faster than if I pivot with the upper body. Thats basicly on what I realy base my whole argument  But I may be wrong.


 
lol. I get the same when I throw the punch and follow it with my hips. I'm going to do some more research.

thanks for the comment. I hope i made some sense.


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## dnovice (Apr 3, 2009)

Eru quick question. Do you guys have center line and central line (two different things) in your lineage?


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## mook jong man (Apr 4, 2009)

In our lineage against a roundhouse punch we just step right into him with a Dai Sau and punch , upper and lower body unity is maintained . The faster you step in and as long as you are sunk down the more power you will have in your strike.

If I wanted too I could also intercept his round house punch with a Tan Sau and punch with my other hand , but I prefer the Dai Sau as you don't have to pivot.

 But if I were to use the Tan Sau I would use a type of footwork that we call planing , it is where you still are stepping in but you have orientated your hips in the direction of the opponents incoming force . 

Your Tan Sau is on your centerline and still backed up by your skeletal structure and your strike is off your centreline and now focused at your opponents centreline .

 I would have to judge the opponents punch as being pretty committed for me to use this technique . To illustrate it further it is like a car that has hit a wet patch of road and is aquaplaning on the water , the car is still heading dead straight , but the position of the car itself is skewed.


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## dnovice (Apr 4, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> In our lineage against a roundhouse punch we just step right into him with a Dai Sau and punch , upper and lower body unity is maintained . The faster you step in and as long as you are sunk down the more power you will have in your strike.


 
ok.



mook jong man said:


> If I wanted too I could also intercept his round house punch with a Tan Sau and punch with my other hand , but I prefer the Dai Sau as you don't have to pivot.


This is similar to what i'm refering to... I think. Does your body still move in unity as you throw out the tan sau and punch or is your tan sau thrown first dragging the upper body and then the hips in that direction?

I mean is it like you throw the elbow as you explained in your Bil jee pivoting post. (which is gold by the way.)



mook jong man said:


> Your Tan Sau is on your centerline and still backed up by your skeletal structure and your strike is off your centreline and now focused at your opponents centreline .


 
ok. Thats what i mean by centre line and central line. Your tan sau remains on your centre line, while your punch goes down your central line. 



mook jong man said:


> I would have to judge the opponents punch as being pretty committed for me to use this technique . To illustrate it further it is like a car that has hit a wet patch of road and is aquaplaning on the water , the car is still heading dead straight , but the position of the car itself is skewed.


 
good analogy. I can see what you are saying.


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## mook jong man (Apr 4, 2009)

dnovice said:


> ok.
> 
> 
> This is similar to what i'm refering to... I think. Does your body still move in unity as you throw out the tan sau and punch or is your tan sau thrown first dragging the upper body and then the hips in that direction?
> ...


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## dnovice (Apr 4, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> But really I'm concentrating on my punch mostly , mentally you are thinking about initiating from the waist but in reality the punch goes out , starts the momentum and pulls you along with it and with a lot of training you learn to time it so that the punch lands and your foot hits the ground at the same .


 
This is exactly what I'm refering to. The punch leaving first and then grounding the hit before it lands. Its hard to do so its probably not taught initially. And its similar to what you were saying about throwing your elbow and letting that drag the body in bil jee. I think its a lot more explosive this way. 

interesting. 

Thanks.


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## mook jong man (Apr 4, 2009)

dnovice said:


> This is exactly what I'm refering to. The punch leaving first and then grounding the hit before it lands. Its hard to do so its probably not taught initially. And its similar to what you were saying about throwing your elbow and letting that drag the body in bil jee. I think its a lot more explosive this way.
> 
> interesting.
> 
> Thanks.


 
Yeah but its taken 20 years for me to get to this stage of co-ordination and it was a gradual progression. And a lot of hours were spent doing forms , hitting pads and watching the arm and leg movement in the mirror.

 You have to make sure that you don't throw the baby out with the bath water though , this concept really only holds true for striking because it is a very dynamic movement and you are trying to get your body through space from point A to point B as quick as possible and trying to expand the angle of your arm on impact as well as timing it so that your feet are on the ground at the exact instant.

 But there are other slower moves where the maintaining of the angle in your arms is crucial , when you are already in contact , like using your Bong Sau to off balance your opponent .

 These type of moves must be initiated from the waist and with careful synchronisation of the arm movements otherwise you will find it takes a great deal of effort to shift the person .

 In my opinion there will be instances where the hand will be very slightly ahead of the body such as in striking but other instances where the move is initiated from the waist , such as the stepping Bong Sau sequence in Chum Kiu .

 To an uninitiated observer it looks like the body and arm movements are happening simultaneously but really I am initiating the movement from the waist.


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## dnovice (Apr 4, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> You have to make sure that you don't throw the baby out with the bath water though , this concept really only holds true for striking because it is a very dynamic movement and you are trying to get your body through space from point A to point B as quick as possible and trying to expand the angle of your arm on impact as well as timing it so that your feet are on the ground at the exact instant.


 
Absolutely. Its an advanced technique and should be done only after you understand both with your mind and body striking from hips. The reason why its not really used until the Bil jee form. Even then it must be practiced a lot. 

Good points all around Mook Jong.


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## mook jong man (Apr 4, 2009)

Yep , doing stuff like Bil Jee and using the long pole before you are ready , if you havent had the background in Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kiu for a decent amount of years is a real good way to hurt your back.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Apr 5, 2009)

> If i'm picturing what you're saying correctly you are right. However, thats not the kind of structure i'm refering to. What i'm refering to involves breaking the body unity like what you mentioned above but the crucial part is reassembling that body unity right before the hit to get that whole body mass behind the hit.


 
So basicly what you are saying here is that you break the body structure with moving the upper body first and then reassembling it when the hip comes back to the point your facing with the upper body at a lag? The only thing I would say to that is that the way I was thought the whole "rotation" in that part of the form is usable; the attacking aspect of the Biu Tze elbow is only one part of it. The other part of it is the defensive aspect which is very useful for (guess what ) defence against elbows. Acctuatly I have heard of lineages (Moy Yat I think) who only use the defensive aspect of the Biu Tze elbow. Anyway, my point is that if one were to break the body structure/body unity in the middle of the rotation theat would unable him to use the full bodystructure in the middle of the rotation such as in a situation when defending against an incoming elbow strike. If you were to do this type of a defence against an uncommited attack it would probably work, but if the guy is bigger and the attack is strong the guy will probably crush you.



> In non abstract terms. Assuming you are facing your opponent, and he throws a left round house punch. You pivot to the right block his round house with a right biu sau and punch with your left hand. He then throws another round house, but this time with his right so now you pivot left and do a left Biu sau and right punch. These punches you throw come of a pivot. So long as the punch travels down your centerline and is lined up with your back foot, your body is behind the hit.
> 
> Now, i believe if you move your hands and upperbody first your punch and block accelerate faster. Then right before impact or a fraction of a second after you move your upper body your hip follows suite and grounds your hit. This places your whole body behind the hit. So in short you break the body unity and then restore it at the end.


 
I do that same thign against a roundhouse punch. I acctualy have in the very end of Biu Tze. I never seen anybody elso do it; people mostly do Tan or Lap hit. But I do that with body unity too. I don't know what you mean with grounding, could you please explain a bit more?



> Yes, you have some strong muscle groups pushing the hips. However, when you move the hips with the upper body as a unit it is a larger mass since total mass=upper body +hips... If you are only moving your upper body the equation becomes total mass=upper body (without the hips).
> Thats why i believe its faster to only move the upper body. Yes, the thigh muscles are among the strongest but it has a lot more to move, namely the hips and the upper body together.


 
I know what you are saying but I think you missed my point. Even though the hips are moving a larger mass they are a much stronger muscle group (I don't realy know, but I imagine)then the one of your deltoid-I mean they have to carry your whole body arround  Besides that, my main point was that upper body twisting in the way you mention creates a lot of tension becouse as said before the upper body wants to be where the hip is. When you do this you are fighting tension. To ilustrate what I mean: try standing in you YGKYM and try pivoting with your upper body as fast as you can to the left, and the with the hips/footwork as fast as you can to the left. 



> exactly. And this is why you end the move with the hip facing the same direction.


 
One question; when you hit the target is your hip allready facing the target or not just yet?



> lol. I get the same when I throw the punch and follow it with my hips. I'm going to do some more research.
> 
> thanks for the comment. I hope i made some sense.


 
As you said, discussing this without pictures is getting difficult. I can't wait for that senior to shed some light on the subject. Anyway, an interesting subject.



> Eru quick question. Do you guys have center line and central line (two different things) in your lineage?


 
I admit I had too google it at first  It says central line is a William Cheung concept which is defined anywhere where you can cross your two hands. Reading your explanation a post later I see what you meant better. Yes, I have both thos concepts. I think most WC lineages do. The thing is I was thought a bit diffrently. My instructor didn't complicate stuff too much, not saying that you are, but I see some people with so many center lines not even knowing what they are sopposed to be. I hear some people have up to 6 center lines(I thin it's William Cheun). The only thing that I was thought on the subject was; the centerline is the line going from your center to your opponents center. In most cases you want you hands on the centerline. But as in that Biu Tze application you mentioned sometimes you have to leave it. Many movements in Biu Tze do that. Maybe we could talk a bit more about it on another thread or via PM?



> Originally Posted by *mook jong man*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I lost you guys here. And again I'm not realy sure what you mean with grounding. Besides if your stepping forward with your left leg and punching with your left arm your generating the power from your right leg; you can do it even if your left leg is raised. If your Laping with your left hand with your left foot forward on the other hand your generating power from your left foot.

Very interesting thread, I don't know why some other very knowledgable people on this forum don't join in. I'm sure together we could come to some awsome conclusions much faster!

Btw(have to share), I became an uncle 2 days ago


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## mook jong man (Apr 5, 2009)

Something that might be causing some confusion is that in the TST lineage we have the weight evenly distibuted on both feet 50/50 our fighting stance is the Sil Lum Tao stance not like some lineages where one foot is forward like in the Chum Kiu form.

And congratulations Uncle Eru , yeah I sent the email last week and I still haven't got a reply so I think they may have gone overseas , but anyway I will try again.


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## redantstyle (Apr 5, 2009)

> To an uninitiated observer it looks like the body and arm movements are happening simultaneously but really I am initiating the movement from the waist.


 
.


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## mook jong man (Apr 5, 2009)

Dnovice and Eru this guy is from my lineage and does the Bil Jee the same as me , although with a lot more skill .

 But look very carefully at the elbow strike sequences , see how the elbows initiate the momentum for the rotation.


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## dnovice (Apr 5, 2009)

Hey guys so I have a lot of time on my hands now since I injured my knee playing soccer. You'll probably see a lot more posts or replys from me. lol. 




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> So basicly what you are saying here is that you break the body structure with moving the upper body first and then reassembling it when the hip comes back to the point your facing with the upper body at a lag?


 
Yes. But remember this only for a fraction of a second so someone observing might think its body unity. Its only obvious upon careful inspection. 



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> The only thing I would say to that is that the way I was thought the whole "rotation" in that part of the form is usable; the attacking aspect of the Biu Tze elbow is only one part of it. The other part of it is the defensive aspect which is very useful for (guess what ) defence against elbows.


 absolutely. I do that unconsciously sometimes during very light sparring. 



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> Acctuatly I have heard of lineages (Moy Yat I think) who only use the defensive aspect of the Biu Tze elbow.


Not sure. I only made it to the chum kiu level in the Moy yat lineage. However, I believe that so long as you raise your elbow and bring it down as in the clip shown above by Mook Jong then it can serve as a defensive maneuver... ie. if you choose to see it that way. 



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> Anyway, my point is that if one were to break the body structure/body unity in the middle of the rotation theat would unable him to use the full bodystructure in the middle of the rotation such as in a situation when defending against an incoming elbow strike.


 Ok. I see what you're saying. However, this lag we're talking about is only a fraction of a second. So you should have structure during defending. I've not felt of balance when I blocked elbows this way. 




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> I do that same thign against a roundhouse punch. I acctualy have in the very end of Biu Tze. I never seen anybody elso do it; people mostly do Tan or Lap hit. But I do that with body unity too.


sweet. Then that works for you and I would say keep doing that. 



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> I don't know what you mean with grounding, could you please explain a bit more?


 
Ok. In wing chun we assemble our structure so that when we strike or block we are doing that from the ground, ie the force comes from the ground. Some sifu's would say you can't push me because you are pushing the ground. This is done by aligning the body in such a way that whatever energy is being transfered is being transfered straight to the ground or is coming from the ground. I borrowed the term grounding from physics where to prevent being shocked by lighting or electricity you run a wire to the ground. I choose the word because i thought it was similar. 





			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> I know what you are saying but I think you missed my point. Even though the hips are moving a larger mass they are a much stronger muscle group (I don't realy know, but I imagine)then the one of your deltoid-I mean they have to carry your whole body arround


 
ok. I see what you are saying. The lower body strength is so much that it can carry that total mass faster than the upper body. Its strong but i don't think its that strong. 



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> Besides that, my main point was that upper body twisting in the way you mention creates a lot of tension becouse as said before the upper body wants to be where the hip is.


 
When you twist there is a little leeway before that tension starts to build. You exploit that leeway and don't really let that tension build. What you are talking about reminds me of a thai kick, where they wind their body's prior to the kick to build tension and strength. What i'm refering to doesn't require you to build that amount of tension. 

Basically, your is moving right behind your upper body movement. 





			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> One question; when you hit the target is your hip allready facing the target or not just yet?


 
My hip is facing the target if i'm hitting alone. However if i'm blocking, my hip is facing the hit to absorb the hit and i strike down the central line. 





			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> As you said, discussing this without pictures is getting difficult. I can't wait for that senior to shed some light on the subject. Anyway, an interesting subject.


 
very. I a little speed which is helpful for slow people. 





			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> I admit I had too google it at first  It says central line is a William Cheung concept which is defined anywhere where you can cross your two hands.


Yes. I did William Cheung lineage when i was in school. Thats where I got the term from. 



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> Reading your explanation a post later I see what you meant better. Yes, I have both thos concepts. I think most WC lineages do. The thing is I was thought a bit diffrently. My instructor didn't complicate stuff too much, not saying that you are, but I see some people with so many center lines not even knowing what they are sopposed to be.


 
Its just a term to help discuss what happens in wing chun, not necessarily to complicate things. lol. sorry if i am. 




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> I hear some people have up to 6 center lines(I thin it's William Cheun).


No, there is only one center line. There are more central lines. 

A center line is the line going from your center to the opponents center. The central line is any other line of that center, but the elbow still points to that center line. for example  / (the dash is your center line and you're facing right, and the slash is on the central line, also originating from the center line but not in the direction the hip is facing.) Like I said these are just terms.





			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> The only thing that I was thought on the subject was; the centerline is the line going from your center to your opponents center.


 
Yes, thats the center line. But its not the central line.



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> In most cases you want you hands on the centerline. But as in that Biu Tze application you mentioned sometimes you have to leave it.


 
Thats why i believe its an advanced technique. In chum kiu everything starts with the hips. I'm guessing to help us understand what body unity is. Because without that understanding we can't assemble or reassemble body unity. (this is just my opinion)



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> Many movements in Biu Tze do that.


 Yes. These moves are fast and fluid. 



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> Maybe we could talk a bit more about it on another thread or via PM?


 
Definitely Eru. There is a lot to discuss about wing chun techniques. and Now that i'm bed ridden I have a lot more time. lol.





			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1151811 said:
			
		

> Btw(have to share), I became an uncle 2 days ago


 
Congratulations uncle Eru!



mook jong man said:


> Dnovice and Eru this guy is from my lineage and does the Bil Jee the same as me , although with a lot more skill .
> 
> But look very carefully at the elbow strike sequences , see how the elbows initiate the momentum for the rotation.


 
Very nice video. Its exactly what i'm talking about. In the video you can see that its not only the elbow strikes that use that concept. Look at the section from 1;47. (look very closely and you'll see the hands initiate movement with the body following. fraction of a second difference.)


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## qwksilver61 (Apr 5, 2009)

The two that I am familiar with are;standing behind the punch,(preserving the gravity of the trunk) and the turnstile;borrowing your opponents force,turning it right back on him.Also, smacking the wall bag instead of trying to drive your shoulder through it.ie;the vertical palm is a slap with the palm not a blow....


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## JGreber (Apr 7, 2009)

When it comes to throwing strikes in the Wing Chun system, all motions should start from striking weapon.  Like when mook jong was speaking about defending against a roundhouse. If your opponent throws a roundhouse, you should throw your punch miliseconds before your body comes into play. Your body will follow and put itself behind the blow. The strike should actually hit your opponent before your block even comes in contact with the roundhouse. When fighters are judging if someone is throwing a strike, it is usually read by the movement of the body as a whole. When you throw the strike before the body you are also a little ahead of your opponents detection. Now, I'm not saying that your blow will be undetectable. Any seasoned martial artist can read these types of thrown blows too. Later in your advanced training, kung fu starts to look at grass root energy. This usually starts when studying Biu jee. This concept of striking is different. It is performed with the power being generated from the ground up. This type of striking moves the body first and is studied and used more in the internal martial arts.


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## dnovice (Apr 7, 2009)

qwksilver61 said:


> The two that I am familiar with are;standing behind the punch,(preserving the gravity of the trunk) and the turnstile;borrowing your opponents force,turning it right back on him.Also, smacking the wall bag instead of trying to drive your shoulder through it.ie;the vertical palm is a slap with the palm not a blow....


 
Those are two are good. The second one allows you to transfer the force from your opponent back onto them. If you could supplement that force with your own force wouldn't that be sweet. Thats were punch mechanics come into play. 



JGreber said:


> When it comes to throwing strikes in the Wing Chun system, all motions should start from striking weapon. Like when mook jong was speaking about defending against a roundhouse. If your opponent throws a roundhouse, you should throw your punch miliseconds before your body comes into play. Your body will follow and put itself behind the blow.


 absolutely. The only thing is this is not really taught early. In the first forms you learn to initiate motion with your hips or legs, ie. your whole body moves as a unit. 




JGreber said:


> The strike should actually hit your opponent before your block even comes in contact with the roundhouse.


 
If you can do this then you should probably just focus on hitting the person and not worry about the block.




JGreber said:


> When fighters are judging if someone is throwing a strike, it is usually read by the movement of the body as a whole. When you throw the strike before the body you are also a little ahead of your opponents detection. Now, I'm not saying that your blow will be undetectable.


 
Very good point here. I like says Yoda. lol. 




JGreber said:


> Later in your advanced training, kung fu starts to look at grass root energy. This usually starts when studying Biu jee. This concept of striking is different. It is performed with the power being generated from the ground up. This type of striking moves the body first and is studied and used more in the internal martial arts.


 
I think this is actually in reverse. At first in WC, at least from my experience, they drill into you the importance of body unity, using power from the ground so to speak. In Bil jee is when you start doing fast fluid movements in which your hand darts out ahead of the body. I think its good this way since by that time you understand what it feels like to place your body behind a hit so then you can be more versatile and punch first and let the body, reassembling that body unity that transfers energy from the ground. I believe this compounds the force.

Thanks for the posts fellows.


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## AceHBK (Apr 7, 2009)

You know I am glad this was brought up.

My Sifu statses that when throwing a WC punch you should punch like you have a piece of string in your hand and you are trying to throw a rock with that string.
He doesn't teach any wrist motion.  He just says that you should use your arms and not shoulders.  Nothing about using the shoulder, elbow, wrist and all.  From reading up on WC punching I see that you should use you feet (meaning have a strong foundation and getting power from there), knees, hips, shoulder, elbow and wrist.

I didn't realize really until my classmate was trying to do a 1 inch punch and did it like Uma Thurman did in Kill Bill.  I looked at him crazy b/c I knew immediately it was wrong.  He has been with my Sifu for 2 years and I sat and taught him about using the wrist.


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## AceHBK (Apr 7, 2009)

JGreber said:


> When fighters are judging if someone is throwing a strike, it is usually read by the movement of the body as a whole. When you throw the strike before the body you are also a little ahead of your opponents detection. Now, I'm not saying that your blow will be undetectable. Any seasoned martial artist can read these types of thrown blows too. .


 
Yeah you are taught especially in western boxing to look at the elbow and waist.


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## JGreber (Apr 9, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *JGreber* 

 
_Later in your advanced training, kung fu starts to look at grass root energy. This usually starts when studying Biu jee. This concept of striking is different. It is performed with the power being generated from the ground up. This type of striking moves the body first and is studied and used more in the internal martial arts._

Quote: dnovice.  I think this is actually in reverse. At first in WC, at least from my experience, they drill into you the importance of body unity, using power from the ground so to speak. In Bil jee is when you start doing fast fluid movements in which your hand darts out ahead of the body. I think its good this way since by that time you understand what it feels like to place your body behind a hit so then you can be more versatile and punch first and let the body, reassembling that body unity that transfers energy from the ground. I believe this compounds the force.

When we study the idea of grass root energy, we start studying the idea from the concept of chan siu jing. We use chan sui jing when doing knife flow and when flowing through different chin na positions. I didn't mean that it came directly from the way we use power in the Bui jee set. We do start looking at this type of generated power at the same time that we start looking at the Bui jee form though. When you combine the power built in to the throwing of the arms in Bui jee and the power generated from the ground through grass root motion, you get a very powerful and penatrating strike. I appreciate your comments!


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 10, 2009)

dnovice said:


> (sidenote: this might be a bit advanced.)
> Mook Jong Man's post on Bil jee pivoting brought this question, which i have been struggling with, to the forefront of my mind.
> 
> Is it better to throw a punch with your hip lagging, simultaneously, or hip first then punch last. (of course the lag is only a fraction of a second.)?
> ...


Punch first then hip.
Sean


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