# Kamon BJJ/Wing Chun



## KamonGuy2 (Jul 3, 2008)

Sifu Kevin Chan has opened up his new BJJ federation which is flying under the banner of the Gracie Barra (Roger Gracie academy)

The first class starts tonight at 6pm in Portsmouth (Fratton) UK

Straight after the BJJ there is a wing chun class also taught by Kevin Chan

Please visit www.kamonbjj.com for further details


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## matsu (Jul 3, 2008)

look great setup. and checked out WC site- you in any of them there videeeeoossss mate?

matsu


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## geezer (Jul 3, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Sifu Kevin Chan has opened up his new BJJ federation which is flying under the banner of the Gracie Barra (Roger Gracie academy)
> 
> The first class starts tonight at 6pm in Portsmouth (Fratton) UK
> 
> ...



Cool. Since Kevin Chan is a WC sifu too, am I right in assuming that his BJJ is informed by his WC background? That is to say that he would be uniquely knowledgable in coaching WC/WT stylists in making the transitions between their stand-up techniques and grappling.  If so, I could imagine a big interest down the road in seminars by other WC-ers.


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## Si-Je (Jul 3, 2008)

What?  No...

What made him want to do that?  Is BJJ popular in England?


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 4, 2008)

Si-Je : BJJ is extremely popular in England. Especially with the talents of people like Roger Gracie and Mauricio Gomes (5 time world champion) who teach Kevin Chan and sometimes us

Geezer : Kevin Chan is one of the best guys to speak to on the transitions from wing chun to BJJ. We do a lot of clinchwork drills in class. 
In all the fights I have had, it is obvious that fights close quickly (people grab you, clinch you). Sometimes they grab you. Sometimes you grab them in order to shut them down. If you have ever come across a huge streetfighter or yob who is working off pure aggression and throwing in windmills, you realise that trying to land a good punch is difficult, trying to defend is difficult. The easiest way is to shut them down in a clinch and then use your wing chun from that position. But the key is getting the clinch right, or else the guy will just use strength

Matsu - I'm the big fat guy in the Kamon Streetfighting video (the one knocked out by Kevin Chan's elbow). You can find it on youtube (just type in kamon and streetfighting). I'm not a pretty sight


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## matsu (Jul 4, 2008)

*Geezer : Kevin Chan is one of the best guys to speak to on the transitions from wing chun to BJJ. We do a lot of clinchwork drills in class. 
In all the fights I have had, it is obvious that fights close quickly (people grab you, clinch you). Sometimes they grab you. Sometimes you grab them in order to shut them down. If you have ever come across a huge streetfighter or yob who is working off pure aggression and throwing in windmills, you realise that trying to land a good punch is difficult, trying to defend is difficult. The easiest way is to shut them down in a clinch and then use your wing chun from that position. But the key is getting the clinch right, or else the guy will just use strength"*

very nice explanation mate.
sifu looks very sharp and crisp in technique. from a beginners viewpoint.
matsu

oh and you look scary as hell fella!!!:samurai::jaw-dropping: heehee


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## Si-Je (Jul 4, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> If you have ever come across a huge streetfighter or yob who is working off pure aggression and throwing in windmills, you realise that trying to land a good punch is difficult, trying to defend is difficult. The easiest way is to shut them down in a clinch and then use your wing chun from that position. But the key is getting the clinch right, or else the guy will just use strength


 
Sweetie, you can Dai-sau all day long against windmill punching.  
If you heel kick at the same time that will kill much of the power in their "punching".  
Plus, Dai-sau will open their vitals up to you, you'll have the centerline to punch, chop, elbow, knee, and kick all you like.  

When you clinch you narrow your options for attack.  Kinda like putting yourself in a Mexican standoff.  Your both committed in grappling, so whoever shifts their their weight first risks being thrown, or re-directed to the opponent's advantage.    Whoever lets go first is opening themselves up to the grapplers technique.  

example:  say they underarm hook you and clinch.  Instead of fighting them for that position, trying to get your arms under their armpits, Just elbow the head, repeadedly if necessarily, jab the eyes, slap the ears, bite, head butt, (step on their foot as you do these things for a little extra "nasty" in your defense and move forward) palm the chin and move forward and up, (the body follows the head).  
This would be a better defense especially on the street where their may be others attacking you.  When you grapple and opponent, your committed to that ONE fight and fighter.  If there's more people they have all the time in the world to stomp your head, kick, and hit you.

example: if they pin both your arms down and clinch, you still have your legs and feet, headbutt.  You can heel kick from here, step on the foot as you head butt forward, knee the groin, slap or palm strike the groin, inside the theighs are always tender (give a mean pinch with a twist! lol!  Works on every big guy I ever did that to! 

See, for them to keep you pinned there's nothing they can really do to you at that point.  For them to hurt you, their going to have to move, shift their weight, telegraph their intention, let you go to strike, change hand positions to get a joint lock.  So, you can simply wait.  Or, attack with your legs, hands, head and such.  And when their body position changes, you take advantage of the moment.


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## Si-Je (Jul 4, 2008)

Then, there's energy work.  Cool stuff!  Watch this little man re-direct a larger man's energy and force.  He's not clinching, but you can see it better this way, and you can utilize the same basic concepts when your being clinched.


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## Si-Je (Jul 4, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> I'm the big fat guy in the Kamon Streetfighting video (the one knocked out by Kevin Chan's elbow). You can find it on youtube (just type in kamon and streetfighting). I'm not a pretty sight


 
Could you put a link to the video on?  I've got dail-up, (ack!) and my browser isn't showing the menu on the left.


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## matsu (Jul 5, 2008)

without hijacking this thread-perhaps i should start a new one 

as a beginner i am unfamiliar with dai-sau

can you explain to me/show me?

many thanks
matsu


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## matsu (Jul 5, 2008)

oops just realised big post on dai sau...... my bad.
matsu


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## naneek (Jul 5, 2008)

i think its great if u can use both wing chun and bjj, it can only help in understanding a grapplers skill set, but if u wanna stay just pure wing chun thats great too, different strokes and all that jazz


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2008)

Well, at the very minimum I think learning BJJ teaches you the grappler mindset on the general side and the groundfighting aspect. Combine that with Anti-Grappling taught in Wing Chun and this is a formidable element of fighting indeed. What with BJJ being rather popular these days, it wouldn't be a bad idea (me thinks) to know how possible adversaries train and fight. 

In my case I intend to combine BJJ with Wing Chun/Muay Thai to do MMA competitions on an amateur basis, while still maintaining the WC for self defense.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 7, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> example: say they underarm hook you and clinch. Instead of fighting them for that position, trying to get your arms under their armpits, Just elbow the head, repeadedly if necessarily, jab the eyes, slap the ears, bite, head butt, (step on their foot as you do these things for a little extra "nasty" in your defense and move forward) palm the chin and move forward and up, (the body follows the head).
> 
> example: if they pin both your arms down and clinch, you still have your legs and feet, headbutt. You can heel kick from here, step on the foot as you head butt forward, knee the groin, slap or palm strike the groin, inside the theighs are always tender (give a mean pinch with a twist! lol! Works on every big guy I ever did that to!
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


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## Si-Je (Jul 7, 2008)

I've sparred a bit with grapplers a couple of times, it IS good practice.  But, just because we've successfully defended against grapplers using WC doesn't mean they were just "bad" at grappling.  These people trained for years.  Plus, I'd rather a grappler wear the helmet and face shield during practice.  That way I can use most of MY technique to defend without hurting them.

I've seen videos of WC'ers and grapplers sparring (just to practice), sure, the WC guy gets taken to the ground.  But the grappler wasn't wearing gear, and these guys were buddies, so without the head gear the WC'er couldn't practice his WC on the grappler.

We had many wrestlers, JKD guys, MMA, and grapplers all wear face shields when we teach them the anti-grappling or spar.  That way we can show them how just punching in the head or face changes their direction for attack or defense without really hurting them.

Even if the power of my punch isn't strong enough to seriously hurt my opponent, it still thwarts their initial attack.  (besides, if one punch isn't "strong" enough, I say give 'em twenty! lol!)
I know BJJ guys train to "take a hit or two" but, they really see the difference with the gear on.
Constantly striking keeps them from being able to organize their plan of attack.  Plus, my fav, is the defense against one between your legs.  You simply use basic stance to keep their weight off you and allows you to "keep your space" from them.  Making it harder for a grappler or whatever to strike you, armbar, or choke you.  That position I can even get in a good )Japanese) Ju-Jitsu arm bar if I wanted to.
But really, the WC you use from that distance is more effecient when it comes to exerting effort and energy in a fight.   

Plus, say if someone attacks you on a bus.  What would a grappler do while on their back in the isle of a bus?  I know what I'd do.  But coming from a strong Ju-Jitsu background, I'm assuring you that Ju-Jitsu, or even Judo would be ineffectual in that scenario.  So, if anti-grappling or WC works just find in a street fight under almost all conditions, why can't it be applied in the ring, or on the matt?

Just my preference.  I've got a bad back, and my neck got jacked up practicing Ju-Jitsu years ago.  My hey day utilizing Ju-Jitsu is gone.  I had to learn another way.  I really wish I knew this stuff 10 years ago!  I might have escaped an injury, and it would have come in handy when I had to use Ju-Jitsu to defend myself for real.  (It totally failed the "practical" test! lol!)


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 8, 2008)

Let me put it in a much much simpler way. 

If wing chunners never got taken down (or hit so that they knocked someone out before they could take them down to the ground) don't you think every cage fighter on the planet would be living an breathing wing chun???

The sad fact is that it is not too hard to take someone to the floor
Most people think that a person attacking you will be front on. I have seen and experienced people grabbing and dragging you to the floor from behind or the side as well as in front. Sometimes you might trip if it is uneven surface or if there are obstacles in the way

But chunners still refute this and are in danger because of it. It is not just BJJ guys who drag you down, but bouncers, brawlers, street fighters.

All I would say is, prepare for the worst and your confidence will go through the roof


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## Si-Je (Jul 8, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is where training with good BJJ guys really helps.
> ??


 
My hubbie has trained, sparred and such with black belts in BJJ.  Equally big and strong as him, at time bigger.  (That's hard for him to encounter since he's 6'4")

I've practiced on a couple of BJJ people that had at least a "purple" belt in the art of BJJ before they came to our school.  

Once, one of our senior students just didn't show up to class for 8 months, we figured he was not interested anymore.  He eventually came back, (he was a friend of ours too, probably why) and sparred with my hubbie.  Both had head gear on, face shields and gloves, and my hubbies student and friend did his best to use BJJ on him.  He failed, and Sifu Hubbie pinned him while explaining to him how to get out of holds, and such.  (This was after they duked it out with each other pretty hard, male bonding or something.  lol!)
And he showed him how he countered the BJJ.  Our student tried to attack in a BJJ fashion again and was thwarted.  
He started coming back to class regularly, and apologized for not coming back sooner, but the BJJ class made him sign a contract.
We weren't mad at him, we just asked him to let us know if he had any doubts or questions about the effectiveness of WC ever again and that we would teach him what he needed to know.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 10, 2008)

If that is true (and I'm not trying to besmirch your character by saying youre lying), if you film it, you would get a lot of fame/money/respect from it

There are no clips on youtube of a wing chunner winning against a BJJ guy (well none that Ive seen) and all those posts of why chun isnt in the cage  you would destroy that argument with a vid clip of you holding your own against an MMAer or BJJ guy

I have wrestled, grappled and fought many good BJJ guys and they are not that easy to go against. But if you insist that you (or husband, or any chunner) have held your own against a black belt BJJ guy then I would ask that you would post your vid link here

It would seriously alter my view of training


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## dungeonworks (Jul 10, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Let me put it in a much much simpler way.
> 
> If wing chunners never got taken down (or hit so that they knocked someone out before they could take them down to the ground) don't you think every cage fighter on the planet would be living an breathing wing chun???
> 
> ...



An excellent point.  Calrson Gracie Jr. himself liked the idea of mixing Wing Chun principles into his GJJ ( http://www.everythingwingchun.com/Samuel-Kwok-Carlson-Gracie-Double-Impact-DVD-p/sk01.htm ).  I would go also add that simple wrestling basics could also help in this respect.  Things such as sprawling and the scrambling done in many situations are good stuff to know.  Many wrestlers also have a good ability to get back to their feet as well.


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## chisauking (Jul 10, 2008)

kamon guy sez: There are no clips on youtube of a wing chunner winning against a BJJ guy (well none that Ive seen) and all those posts of why chun isnt in the cage  you would destroy that argument with a vid clip of you holding your own against an MMAer or BJJ guy

I think it's very foolish to compare different 'tools' for different things.

In all games, the rules favour the particular game in which one is playing in. For example, I would put all my money on Hagler when he was in his prime to win any BJJ champion in boxing. So, does that mean boxing is the ultimate fighting style? Would the same result occur in a fight when one's life depended on it in the street? Another example would be to put a boxer in a judo match with judo rules. Here, even Ali or tyson would lose.

One can easily see from my examples above that different rules favour different games, and you can't judge the effectiveness of a particular method when you a playing 1 game that favours certain methods.

Silly people say they haven't seen any wing chun practitioners beating BJJ's on utube. Well, one can argue just as well that one hasn't seen any BJJer beating a genuine wing chun practitioner on the street; or a genuine boxing champion; or choy lay fut; a millwall thug; gipsy fighter, etc., etc.

Basing one's reality on what they see or don't see on utube is just pure stupidity. One doesn't see a stomp kick breaking someone's knee, or thumbs digging into someone's eye, or claws ripping deep into someone's face, or a faact-sau to break someone's nose on utube, does that mean those techniques doesn't work? If you agree those techniques work, then how come we haven't seen them on K1, NHB, etc., etc.?

The answer is in one of wing chun's keun kuits: 'keun yau sum faat, lik yau day hay.' In other words, how much you want to fight. As much as I like kungfu, I can't bring myself to inflict so much injuries to a fellow human being just to win a silly 'game' to 'prove a point'. Take away the voilence, take away the 'intent' and put it in a game, and wing chun becomes nothing but pretty hand shapes.

People with genuine experience will know that fighting has a totally different meaning and is a completely differnt 'game' when one's life depends on it. In this 'arena', even BJJ has to change.

Of course, one can adopt wing chun for the 'game', but to me (and perhaps many others) that would defeat the ojective of wing chun to begin with, and, more importantly, impede one's development of one's wing chun skillset.

To me, the 'effectiveness & efficiency' of wing chun can only be judged when playing with no rules, and when the 'intent' is there.

each to thier own


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## matsu (Jul 10, 2008)

fut; *a millwall thug;* gipsy fighter, etc., etc.

yep def an englsh bud!!!

nice explanation of your thoughts mate.
this is a massive debate that can and prob will go on and on.


me thinks......its not as much the style and skill set and even the enviroment in which the fight is taking place but the practioner himself that makes the difference.

matsu


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## chisauking (Jul 10, 2008)

matsu sez: me thinks......its not as much the style and skill set and even the enviroment in which the fight is taking place but the practioner himself that makes the difference

Of course the 'person' makes a hugh difference....but other things are just as important. Arton Senna or Michael Schmacker would drive fast regardless of the car you gave them....however, give them a better car and they would drive even faster.

Same with natraul fighters. Without training, their own natraul abilities would see them through most people....However, give them a powerful weapon -- like wing chun -- and they would be breaking faces all day long.

The arena or environment also play a big difference. Put the fastest F1 car on a rallye circuit and it will be left for dead. In the same way, put some of the 'sport' orientated methods on the pavement arena, with nice glass panes & sharp brick edges into the equation, and you will find those methods which work so nicely on deluxe padded floors, on bare-feet, in a safe envirnment, now no longer work the same. Introduce a bit of good old adrenaline flow into the mix -- and wahlah -- most tournament 'fighters' turn to jelly.

BTW, if I'd offended anyone with my 'opinions', then I have to say it wasn't my intention. My aim was to get people to think for themself and not believe so easily the BS floating on utube & the net in general. One must understand that fighting is fighting, and there's NO substitute for fighting.


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## Si-Je (Jul 10, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> If that is true (and I'm not trying to besmirch your character by saying youre lying), if you film it, you would get a lot of fame/money/respect from it


 
Oh, I'm not wanting all that.  
I'm just saying it can be done.  Their not immortal, BJJ can be beaten.  There's always a way to defeat and oppontent.  (Some are harder than others, of course)

I guess since Hubbie's only doing San Shou, that wouldn't count for anything, although they do allow takedowns?

We can't afford to get him into a MMA club so he can fight.  But, then, we'd have to fight the way that the club we joined fought.  Stuck to their fighting style.
Maybe if he wins San Shau, or gets some cash, we could start a club?
If he goes around challenging folks, he'll come off as a bully and nobody will love him.  

So, we're not really sure how's the best way to get some film of him defeating BJJ.  Even then, it seems that most folks will just make excuses for the BJJ/MMA fighter somehow.  Saying he wasn't very good at BJJ, or something, too old, etc.

I'm just really trying to encourage folks to try other styles of groundfighting.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 11, 2008)

chisauking said:


> I think it's very foolish to compare different 'tools' for different things.
> 
> In all games, the rules favour the particular game in which one is playing in. For example, I would put all my money on Hagler when he was in his prime to win any BJJ champion in boxing. So, does that mean boxing is the ultimate fighting style? Would the same result occur in a fight when one's life depended on it in the street? Another example would be to put a boxer in a judo match with judo rules. Here, even Ali or tyson would lose.
> 
> ...


I think you need to re-read the thread, rather than the last post. 
The argument is not about whether wing chun will beat BJJ. The argument stems from certain individuals claiming that they will never go to ground or have trouble fighting a BJJ guy
As I have stated, there are hundreds of video clips of BJJ guys destroying wing chunners, but no clips of chunners holding their own against BJJ guys

BJJ is a sport at the end of the day. Although it can be used in a street scenario, it is mostly trained for sport (point gaining) competitions.
Yet very simple basics of BJJ can help enhance a chunner to make him confident on the floor and the ground. 

The debate is not style vs style - that is just stupid. The point is that wing chun has a major flaw which is no ground game
Chunners are so confident that they can hold their feet that they never bother to train a ground game 
What I was saying to Si-Je is if you train regularly against people who aim to take you to the ground, then I would like to see it. 
It is very easy to email your local BJJ club and ask for a good level BJJ artist to spar with or fight against. If you word it right (maybe even post them this link) they might be game. You said that you've trained against BJJ black belts so you must have access to talented BJJ guys somewhere??

Anyway, until I see it either in video or in person I will be sceptical
It is not that I don't believe Si-Je - she seem sto be a very honest person, but black belts of arts are not always good from country to country and what some people might think is good wing chun, others may disagree.


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## chisauking (Jul 11, 2008)

I will just quickly address some points made by Kamon guy:

As I have stated, there are hundreds of video clips of BJJ guys destroying wing chunners, but no clips of chunners holding their own against BJJ guys

csk: You have to judge any information you see on utube in 'context'.
1) wing chun is a very difficult method to master (regardless what marketing material may say), and altough one can claim they are practising wing chun, they may not be very good at it. Wing chun in general is now practised more of a 'hobby' then a combat method. It's a victim of its own popularity, with many, many large organisations using it to make money then to train fighters. In order to acheive its objective of making money, the organisations have to look after its members, making sure all the training is safe, making sure there's a never-ending sylabus to keep the students(suckers) in the club, in the pretext that there are endless permutations of combat scenarios.

2) ALL the clips I have seen on the net regarding wing chun V BBJ were against BBJ CHAMPIONS against wing chun newbies or *Mannequins. *People who basically stood there waiting for the take-down. Also, it's usually in a safe environment: nice cushy mats, no hard shoes or boots, with people who were not 'committed'(no intent). If a organisation or indivual wanted to 'test' themselves, surely they look for the 'best' to fight. Why fight with 'mannequins'? For example, Emin Boztepe training consist of 'anti-grappling'. All the grapplers and Bushsido pokes fun at him. He would be the perfect person to 'prove' their method. Why then, don't we see any 'clips' of grapplers challenging him? 

3) One has to ask why is there 'hundreds of video clips of BJJers bashing wing chun people'? Is it to prove their superiority? For marketing purposes? If it's the former, then why don't we see them challenging people that would put up a good fight? Secondly, don't you think people like Boztepe, Lam man Hog, or any of the more violent WSL lineage people can go around to grappling clubs and film themselves bashing some of the lesser students? If so, would you say wing chun is superior base on this filming?

The debate is not style vs style - that is just stupid. The point is that wing chun has a major flaw which is no ground game
Chunners are so confident that they can hold their feet that they never bother to train a ground game

csk: Any tool is only as good as the skill of the user. Many wing chun practitioners don't see this 'flaw' because they understand that is the possiblity of combat. Just as a bil-gee to the eyes, kwai-garn to the temple, bitting a 'chunk' of flesh are all possibilites of combat, it's enough that we train to avoid those possibilites or to regain position after. We don't seek to train in another system for the next 5-years in order to deal with just another permutation in combat. 

WSL was asked by a student: 'what would you do if someone had you in a hold, with a knife behind you?' His reply was: 'then it's too late!'

If you understand the reply, then you will understand. If not, you will train in another system for the next 10-years' to address this perceived 'flaw'.

BTW, I have nothing againt BJJ. It's a very good training method. I just don't agree that BJJ is neccesary for wing chun.

good luck in your journey


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## chisauking (Jul 11, 2008)

Dawn of a new era....

Student gullyBell: sifu, wing chun has no 'ground game'.

sifu moneybags: Ah, I will incorporate BJJ into the sylabus. That will keep you nice & busy for the next 5-years'.

Student clevercloggs: But sifu, wing chun has been around for over 400-years. It's been tested in real life & death situations. It was around when unarmed combat was needed the most, during a time with little law & order. Even our ancester, Leung Jan, tested and challenged his skills throughout southern China, against all the best fighters, and he was unbeaten in all his challenge fights. Also, in Hong Kong, during the 60's & 70's, when criminal activities were rift, Wong Shung Leung challenged all the best fighters in the area, and with over 200 fights he had not lost once......Do you mean to tell me that in all that time, nobody thought of ground fighting?

sifu moneybags: Well, in those days, people didn't want to get their cloths dirty, so they avoided the ground at all cost, hence the weakness in ground fighting in ALL the Chinese styles.

student sillyask: sifu, the look-dim-boon gwan is too heavy and impractical. The baat-chaam-dao is too conspicious.

sifu moneybags: No problem. We will add Kali sticks to our sylabus. That will keep you nice and busy for the next 5-years. (flesh of dollers appears in his eyes as he thought of the extra revenue he would generate by keeping the student for an extra 5-years)

student gullybell: sifu, the wing chun jik-keun has no power, and the lin-wan-keun is unless against good MMA's.

sifu moneybags: I can see your points. I will include western boxing into the sylabus. The left hooks & streights will make your wing chun 3 x as powerful, and it will keep you busy for the next 2-years (thinking to himself: shall I buy the new model Merceds Benz or the new Ford model b with the *** warmer & messaging chair?)

student cluelossy: sifu, wing chun is lacking in kicking. There are so many kicks in TKD and MT and only a few measley low kicks in wing chun.

sifu moneybags: Good observation. I will append lighting-shadow kicks into the slyabus. That should keep you busy for the next 3-years. (God, life is too good to me!!! $$$$$$$$$)

student punybones: sifu, there's no weight training in our curriculum. Why can't we look like 'beefcakes'. Other people think we are weak!

sifu moneybags: No problem. I will incorporate a weights training program into my monthy program. Then, not only can you fight, but you will look like a movie star as well! Think of all the girls you will attract!

Every one's a winner. sifu moneybags making lots of money, students are happy because they have a plan to cover ALL permutations of combat, and best of all, wing chun has '*evolved*' to a new level.


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## mook jong man (Jul 11, 2008)

Chisauking i don't agree with everything you said but that post was comedy gold. 
Well written !


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## dungeonworks (Jul 11, 2008)

chisauking said:


> Dawn of a new era....
> 
> Student gullyBell: sifu, wing chun has no 'ground game'.
> 
> ...




That could be said for most any style.  Here in Michigan, USA, it is hard for a kwoon/dojo/dojang to keep the doors open even with all the supplemental classes and kiddie stuff.  

I agree with Kamon, the basics of BJJ would do no harm and be 100% value-added.  Does anyone have any idea that sensitivity is not an exclusive attribute to Wing Chun?  Wing Chun may have wrote the book on it and put it into a very practical sylabus but why can it not be applied in other areas of a fight?  BJJ/JJJ are all about flow.


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## Si-Je (Jul 11, 2008)

Chisauking, you ROCK!
Very funny, only because it is soooo true!
Sifu Monybagas and Student Sillyask, all good stuff!

As too the BJJ thing, I'll say, we've practiced, lightly sparred, and had students that were pretty high up in either BJJ or wrestling.  (The wrestling guys, you really had to watch!)

Of course, they tested us out pretty heavily!  Why do you think they became my Hubbie's students?  We've had some really big strong guys come in that had studied BJJ for 2-5 years.  They were excellent practice for me, but for Hubbie they were more of a reminder of more advanced anti-grappling.  (I don't like calling it that, just because it seems to annoy BJJ people)  
It's just a striking style of ground fighting.  Plain and simple.  You use WC basic stance when an attacker has already gotten in between your legs, and you use more WC/WT arm technique with your legs (like bong sau and such) to roll, or re-direct the opponent.  

It's simple and effortless enough for me to have trained while I was pregnant with large men.  
You simply keep their weight off you, so you can manouver yourself for striking (kicking, knee, elbow, or punching).
But very, very hard to explain on this medium.  Video doesn't do it justice!  You've got to get on the ground and FEEL it.

If you get a chance, ask a WT school if you could see some of their "anti-grappling" technique, and that you wanted to see their "answer" to BJJ takedowns or whatever.  They're cool folks, their probably love to show you without getting rough.

We haven't "challenged" or really tried to hurt grapplers that came to our school, we just showed they how to re-direct punches, chokes, and such from on the ground.  Sure, for a simple grappler takedown we sprawl.  But that's as we're elbowing the back of the head (which we don't really do to people, just touch them to let them know.)  You can simply push down on the back of the head, and "follow" their energy (intention) successfully re-directing them away from your legs for a takedown.  

This can buy you alot of time.  The body follows the head.  It just has to!  You don't have to punch or elbow the opponent, just MOVE him off of his intended trajectory.  
Although if someone really was trying to pick me up or slam me, I'd definately palm strike the back of the head repeadedly.  (They would HURT for taking me down at least!)  Then the anti-grappling starts.  
I'm not saying that a grappler CAN'T take me down.  They sure as **** can if their fast and squirly!  But, I'm gonna make sure I get several shots in before my back meets the concrete.


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## chisauking (Jul 12, 2008)

Sometimes a little humor (my warped sense) helps to put things into perspective. If you find it funny, then great. If you didnt, then I hope at the very least Id provoked you to question yourself a little.

As many know, wing chun is a conceptual style, and as such, its impossible to clone wing chun practitioners. Each of us have our own wing chun journey to travel, and our personal expression of wing chun contains our own unique DNA.

Wing chun starts from the mind, or, in other words, how you comprehend wing chun and its concepts\principles will determine how we approach our training.

Regardless of your approach, certain principles should be adhered to in order for it to be wing chun: simplicity, directness, efficiency, correct use of strength. 

Answer yourself truthfully and you will know how close you are in your wing chun journey.

If you think TKD will improve your wing chun, then add TKD to your wing chun; if you think BJJ will improve your wing chun, then append BJJ to your wing chun. But ask yourself: is what Im doing simple, direct, efficient, effective?


I will leave with one of my favorite stories on sifu Wong Shung Leung.

Sifu WSL had a student that was a very, very good kicker. Hes spent years training his legs and he could do amazing kicks: jumping back kicks, twisting side kicks, axe kicks, flying side kicks, etc., etc. So, sifu WSL said: try to kick me. When his student tried to kick, sifu WSL simply stepped back with timing and angle. After training for years and years, his opponents kicks were negated by a simple step.

The moral of the story?

Sifu WSL didnt play his opponents game. He would prevent the opponent from doing what he did best. Had he tried to out-kick the kicker, he would still be studying TKD now.

If a kicker could kick you at will during a fight, would you take up TKD for the next 10-years in order to out-kick the kicker?
If your opponent could take you down to the ground in a fight, would you spend the next 5-years learning BJJ to counter but 1 possible permutation of combat?
If your opponent could punch you at will, would you take up boxing for the next 5-years in order to out-box the boxer?

More importantly, does this approach conform to the wing chun mind? Is it simple, direct, efficient, effective?

At the end of the day, only YOU can answer that truthfully.

Clue: if you try to follow your opponent in chess, you will always be 1 step behind.


Happy training all.


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## dungeonworks (Jul 12, 2008)

chisauking said:


> Sometimes a little humor (my warped sense) helps to put things into perspective. If you find it funny, then great. If you didnt, then I hope at the very least Id provoked you to question yourself a little.
> 
> As many know, wing chun is a conceptual style, and as such, its impossible to clone wing chun practitioners. Each of us have our own wing chun journey to travel, and our personal expression of wing chun contains our own unique DNA.
> 
> ...



My answers in red, and keep in mind, coming from a 'Chunner with less than 6 months in the art.  In other words, I am not confident enough to go full on WC/WT/VT if I were to be part of a confrontation.  Also, I don't see where anyone said they were going to train 10 yrs in this or 10 yrs in that.  I did see where people were adding to what they are working now, and IMHO, that could only make one a more rounded fighter.  I don't know how familiar you are with any of the grappling styles, but BJJ and wrestling are fairly simple and direct.  Just my opinion.


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## Si-Je (Jul 13, 2008)

chisauking said:


> Sometimes a little humor (my warped sense) helps to put things into perspective. If you find it funny, then great. If you didnt, then I hope at the very least Id provoked you to question yourself a little.
> 
> As many know, wing chun is a conceptual style, and as such, its impossible to clone wing chun practitioners. Each of us have our own wing chun journey to travel, and our personal expression of wing chun contains our own unique DNA.
> 
> ...


 
Beautifully stated!  You were simple, efficient, and direct when sharing your grasp of the concepts of WC/WT.

We once trained a gal that was a boxer for years WC.  She liked MMA and such and she noticed a great improvement and difference with her ability to box just using basic WC concepts.

She utilized boxing technique with WC principles, forward force and movement, economy of movement, and simply kept constantly punching and flowed with the movement of her opponents in the boxing ring.
Just adding these concepts to her boxing technique (and chain punching helped alot of course!  She was able to hold her own against men in the ring sparring, and even pressure them ruthlessly, gaining control of the sparring match in the ring.

She was baffled, and her boyfriend (who owned the boxing gym) was furious.  He wanted her to quit taking kung fu, immediately trying to brainwash her into believing it was "weak".  Until he got in the ring with her.  lol!
 Just an example of how you can apply WC principles to other styles of fighting as well.  But, when you add the WC prinicples to a style of fighting, it ceases to be that style of fighting anymore, and becomes WC.
Soooo....,,,
Adding BJJ with WC principles?  Haven't seen anyone do that.  They seem to tend to throw away WC concepts completely and revert to the mindset of a BJJ practicioner; therefore they are trapped by the "rules" and limitations of BJJ in combat.  

Chisauking said it best, take away the opponent's opportunity to execute the techniques on you that they are comfortable and skilled at.  Intercept their intention, attack their structure before they can fully complete their action.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 14, 2008)

chisauking said:


> I will just quickly address some points made by Kamon guy:
> 
> As I have stated, there are hundreds of video clips of BJJ guys destroying wing chunners, but no clips of chunners holding their own against BJJ guys
> 
> ...


All I would say to that, is that Kevin Chan is one of the best wing chun masters in the world (not just in the UK). I am lucky enough to be able to train anywhere I like (I am a single guy with a lot of free time and money). I choose to train under Kevin Chan because his wing chun is flawless
The grappling and sparring I have done and do well, so I don't go to him because of that. I go to him because he has never pondered over a question or been stumped over anything I've asked him about the art
Our syllabus is very quick and designed to get students good quickly
Although Master Chan is there to make money, his prime aim is to train good students. When you see some of the people he has trained and how good at fighting they are, you start to understand that he is not Sifu Moneybags - any suggestion that he is is just stupid and petty
He was listed in the top 100 martial artists by Martial Arts Magazine and came something like 16th (beating Dan Inosanto!). 
But what I like about him the most is that he is very open and approachable. If you think something doesn't work, he will show you that it does. Whether it be a slow demonstration or in a full out spar



chisauking said:


> 2) ALL the clips I have seen on the net regarding wing chun V BBJ were against BBJ CHAMPIONS against wing chun newbies or *Mannequins. *People who basically stood there waiting for the take-down. Also, it's usually in a safe environment: nice cushy mats, no hard shoes or boots, with people who were not 'committed'(no intent). If a organisation or indivual wanted to 'test' themselves, surely they look for the 'best' to fight. Why fight with 'mannequins'? For example, Emin Boztepe training consist of 'anti-grappling'. All the grapplers and Bushsido pokes fun at him. He would be the perfect person to 'prove' their method. Why then, don't we see any 'clips' of grapplers challenging him?
> 
> 3) One has to ask why is there 'hundreds of video clips of BJJers bashing wing chun people'? Is it to prove their superiority? For marketing purposes? If it's the former, then why don't we see them challenging people that would put up a good fight? Secondly, don't you think people like Boztepe, Lam man Hog, or any of the more violent WSL lineage people can go around to grappling clubs and film themselves bashing some of the lesser students? If so, would you say wing chun is superior base on this filming?


Funny how the Cheung vs. Boztepe fight ended up on the ground isn't it. 
And Boztepe has trained in a ground style that is outside of wing chun. 
When Boztepe made comments about the Gracies, the Gracies requested that he come and prove what he was saying. He didn't. 
Don't get me wrong, I like Boztepe and find him an intriguing character, but if you make big comments about BJJ, you should at least back it up. 
And to answer your question, if there was even one vid clip of a good chunner beating a good BJJ guy, then yes I would say that wing chun doesn't need a ground game. But this is not about styles. It is about wing chun needing a ground game  



chisauking said:


> csk: Any tool is only as good as the skill of the user. Many wing chun practitioners don't see this 'flaw' because they understand that is the possiblity of combat. Just as a bil-gee to the eyes, kwai-garn to the temple, bitting a 'chunk' of flesh are all possibilites of combat, it's enough that we train to avoid those possibilites or to regain position after. We don't seek to train in another system for the next 5-years in order to deal with just another permutation in combat.
> 
> WSL was asked by a student: 'what would you do if someone had you in a hold, with a knife behind you?' His reply was: 'then it's too late!'
> 
> ...


And that is exactly what we are arguing about here. The 'what if' scenarion gets used to death. What if someone comes at you with a gun, what if someone comes at you with a tank, what if someone comes at you with a meteor. But we are not talking extremes here. I have been grabbed numerous times in clubs by people even bigger than me (and I am big). I have been dragged to the floor by a bouncer. Sometimes, you will not see an attack coming, especially a violent clinch, that is not set in a beatiful dojo or bamboo forest. People grab and hit, simple as. 
Most styles have the same problem or try to dress it up through 'anti-grappling', which is just a mish mesh of poor techniques that you aren't going to remember on a Saturday night. I have heard from hundreds of pure chunners who claim that they never needed any other art to help them. Funny how over the years, wing chun has incorperated other styles into the art (other kung fu, pole form).


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 14, 2008)

chisauking said:


> If you think TKD will improve your wing chun, then add TKD to your wing chun; if you think BJJ will improve your wing chun, then append BJJ to your wing chun. But ask yourself: is what Im doing simple, direct, efficient, effective?.



As my friend dungeonworks points out, BJJ is an extremely efficient and direct art. 
As with many styles there are more complicated moves at advanced levels, but simple pins, mounts, chokes are easy to apply. 
The other thing is that it is sometimes incredibly hard to end a fight (I fought a guy on drugs once where my strikes just bounced off him). A choke, which is easy to apply, ends it very easily. 



chisauking said:


> I will leave with one of my favorite stories on sifu Wong Shung Leung.
> 
> Sifu WSL had a student that was a very, very good kicker. Hes spent years training his legs and he could do amazing kicks: jumping back kicks, twisting side kicks, axe kicks, flying side kicks, etc., etc. So, sifu WSL said: try to kick me. When his student tried to kick, sifu WSL simply stepped back with timing and angle. After training for years and years, his opponents kicks were negated by a simple step.
> 
> ...


That just makes me sad.....
You know why? If WSL had learned even a bit of TKD, he would have understood the principles of what his opponent had been taught and learnt how to negate it properly instead of 'stepping back'. It didn't end the fight. If I am at a nightclub and a fight starts, I don't have time to be 'stepping back' and being defensive to a kicker. because I have done kicking arts. I will nullify his kick and enter into range for my wing chun to work 

We are not asking people to outgrapple a grappler, merely to learn very simple BJJ to compliment their striking art

I am a beginner in BJJ, but I would still beat many higher grades in a real fight because I would know how to get into a position to hit the guy. 
I will never be a black belt in BJJ and I don't really want to be. I am mostly interested in understanding the dangers of a BJJ artist and beating him to the punch

If you watch UFC or Cage Rage, you see very clearly that Black belt BJJ guys do not win automatically. They could get beat by someone who has only learnt a year of BJJ. But those who have no ground game find themselves unstuck all the time


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 14, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> We once trained a gal that was a boxer for years WC. She liked MMA and such and she noticed a great improvement and difference with her ability to box just using basic WC concepts..


 


Si-Je said:


> She utilized boxing technique with WC principles, forward force and movement, economy of movement, and simply kept constantly punching and flowed with the movement of her opponents in the boxing ring.
> Just adding these concepts to her boxing technique (and chain punching helped alot of course!  She was able to hold her own against men in the ring sparring, and even pressure them ruthlessly, gaining control of the sparring match in the ring.
> 
> She was baffled, and her boyfriend (who owned the boxing gym) was furious. He wanted her to quit taking kung fu, immediately trying to brainwash her into believing it was "weak". Until he got in the ring with her. lol!.


Mainly because she was probably breaking the rules of boxing (it is a sport at the end of the day). While I use wing chun priciples in other arts, I do what the art asks of me. I am a guest at the dojo/gym and ettiquette should be there. I don't do another style there because I think it is better.

I expect most of the boxers at the gym could have taken their gloves off and destroyed yiour student, but didn't because their is (and should be) a certain level of respect within training areas

Certainly if someone came into my kwoon and started doing high kicks when we are doing chi sao or something I would throw them out. 



Si-Je said:


> Just an example of how you can apply WC principles to other styles of fighting as well. But, when you add the WC prinicples to a style of fighting, it ceases to be that style of fighting anymore, and becomes WC.
> Soooo....,,,
> Adding BJJ with WC principles? Haven't seen anyone do that. They seem to tend to throw away WC concepts completely and revert to the mindset of a BJJ practicioner; therefore they are trapped by the "rules" and limitations of BJJ in combat. .


First off, I am not sure I understand your comment about if you add principles of wing chun to an art it ceases to be that art...?
I train heavily in karate at the moment, and the style has allowed a flawless transition. I can use my principles as part of the art and outspar many of the black belts. The rules are still karate and there are set rules to it, but it doesn't change my style of fighting. We aren't allowed straight punches to the face (but otherwise full contact), but I will go to wing chun or boxing and train straight punches/strikes to the face. 
If I train BJJ I will train under the rules of BJJ. It doesn't mean that when it comes to a real fight I am going to worry about losing points!!
Also, please bear in mind that many BJJ schools have different methods. There are many 'no - Gi' days (which is self explanatory) as well as stand up stuff, clinchwork and realistic self defence. 



Si-Je said:


> Chisauking said it best, take away the opponent's opportunity to execute the techniques on you that they are comfortable and skilled at. Intercept their intention, attack their structure before they can fully complete their action.


 Very true, but how do you know what techniques they are comfortable with? I am not going to wait until they have kicked me four times (because I am studying what technique they do) until I react. Whatever, they bring to the table I will get there first. If they have already grabbed me, I will know what to do. 
We recently had a spate of attacks where girls were being grabbed from behind and dragged into alleys or put into a car or dragged to the floor. Two were martial artists (TKD and Shotokhan karate). I know that some of you claim it to be down to awareness, but sometimes you don't get that luxury if you are forced to go a certain route home or at a certain time of night. Grabs happen and can happen anytime anywhere


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## chisauking (Jul 14, 2008)

Kamon guy: All I would say to that, is that Kevin Chan is one of the best wing chun masters in the world (not just in the UK). I am lucky enough to be able to train anywhere I like (I am a single guy with a lot of free time and money). I choose to train under Kevin Chan because his wing chun is flawless
The grappling and sparring I have done and do well, so I don't go to him because of that. I go to him because he has never pondered over a question or been stumped over anything I've asked him about the art
Our syllabus is very quick and designed to get students good quickly
Although Master Chan is there to make money, his prime aim is to train good students. When you see some of the people he has trained and how good at fighting they are, you start to understand that he is not Sifu Moneybags - any suggestion that he is is just stupid and petty
He was listed in the top 100 martial artists by Martial Arts Magazine and came something like 16th (beating Dan Inosanto!). 
But what I like about him the most is that he is very open and approachable. If you think something doesn't work, he will show you that it does. Whether it be a slow demonstration or in a full out spar
Csk: My comedy sketch wasnt aimed at anyone or organization in particular. Its just to highlight how wing chun may have evolved and is 'evolving' over the years. 
Kamon guy: Funny how the Cheung vs. Boztepe fight ended up on the ground isn't it. 
And Boztepe has trained in a ground style that is outside of wing chun. 
When Boztepe made comments about the Gracies, the Gracies requested that he come and prove what he was saying. He didn't. 
Don't get me wrong, I like Boztepe and find him an intriguing character, but if you make big comments about BJJ, you should at least back it up. 
And to answer your question, if there was even one vid clip of a good chunner beating a good BJJ guy, then yes I would say that wing chun doesn't need a ground game. But this is not about styles. It is about wing chun needing a ground game 
Csk: The cheung & boztepe fight have been done to death, so Im not going over old, old ground once again; suffice to say that the fight was unjust and one-sided, and it doesnt represent wing chun  as a method  one way or another. Further more, for all those thatd bothered to look into this pathetic farce closely, Emin himself confessed to the details of the fight and the preparation leading to the fight recently, and hes also apologies for the sad incident.
Once again, I will state that I have nothing against BJJ or ground grappling  in fact, BJJ is a very good method. What Id strongly disagree with was your notion that wing chun was weak\flawed in the ground game, and to support your ill-conceived claim, you brought up the 100s of videos on utube showing wing chun people being bashed up by BJJers. I responded by saying that those fights were against wing chun mannequins and were far from conclusive. 
In any case, if BJJers like so much to film themselves beating wing chunners so much, they must have visited lots of wing chun clubs. Whats to stop them from visiting Boztepes club with their Kodak? Maybe the prospect of being sent to hospital? Its also important for me to state here that Im not inciting trouble for Emin or any other wing chun organization; its common knowledge that Boztepe welcomes anyone who wants to prove themselves during his seminars. He will allow you to hit him any way you want, as hard as you want. Also, wasnt it you who said to Sie-jar that if someone could show you a video clip of a wing chunner beating a BJJ, you would be more inclined to believe what shed said? Well, why dont you put the same test on yourself? Go to Boztepes seminar with your Kodak, and ask him you want to disprove his anti-grappling nonsense. Show US how youre going to take him down with your BJJ skills and then we will all be more inclined to believe what you say. In fact, if you could show this, I will be the first one to join Kevins BJJ class. 
Kamon guy: And that is exactly what we are arguing about here. The 'what if' scenarion gets used to death. What if someone comes at you with a gun, what if someone comes at you with a tank, what if someone comes at you with a meteor. But we are not talking extremes here. I have been grabbed numerous times in clubs by people even bigger than me (and I am big). I have been dragged to the floor by a bouncer. Sometimes, you will not see an attack coming, especially a violent clinch, that is not set in a beatiful dojo or bamboo forest. People grab and hit, simple as. 
Most styles have the same problem or try to dress it up through 'anti-grappling', which is just a mish mesh of poor techniques that you aren't going to remember on a Saturday night. I have heard from hundreds of pure chunners who claim that they never needed any other art to help them. Funny how over the years, wing chun has incorperated other styles into the art (other kung fu, pole form).

Csk: I think theres a world of difference between incorporating training ideas into wing chuns own system, that conforms to wing chuns principles and core structure, then learning a completely new style altogether to address one single permutation of combat.

Kamon guy:As my friend dungeonworks points out, BJJ is an extremely efficient and direct art. 
As with many styles there are more complicated moves at advanced levels, but simple pins, mounts, chokes are easy to apply. 
The other thing is that it is sometimes incredibly hard to end a fight (I fought a guy on drugs once where my strikes just bounced off him). A choke, which is easy to apply, ends it very easily. 
Csk: Once again, the effectiveness of BJJ and some of its techniques isnt called into question. The argument is whether its efficient & practical for a wing chun practitioner to learn a whole new system in order to address but one permutation of combat? Wing chun concepts teaches us how to find solution within our method, and how not to play to our opponent's advantages. 
Kamon guy: That just makes me sad.....
You know why? If WSL had learned even a bit of TKD, he would have understood the principles of what his opponent had been taught and learnt how to negate it properly instead of 'stepping back'. It didn't end the fight. If I am at a nightclub and a fight starts, I don't have time to be 'stepping back' and being defensive to a kicker. because I have done kicking arts. I will nullify his kick and enter into range for my wing chun to work

Csk: I think its sad that YOU dont understand the simplicity, efficiency & effectiveness in the way he'd countered his opponent.  

Kamon guy: We are not asking people to outgrapple a grappler, merely to learn very simple BJJ to compliment their striking art

Csk: I agree with what you are saying here..but why play their game at all? And, how would simple BJJ going to counter a good BJJ player if you engage in their game?

Kamon guy: I am a beginner in BJJ, but I would still beat many higher grades in a real fight because I would know how to get into a position to hit the guy. 
I will never be a black belt in BJJ and I don't really want to be. I am mostly interested in understanding the dangers of a BJJ artist and beating him to the punch

Csk: Again, I dont disagree with you here.

Kamon guy: If you watch UFC or Cage Rage, you see very clearly that Black belt BJJ guys do not win automatically. They could get beat by someone who has only learnt a year of BJJ. But those who have no ground game find themselves unstuck all the time

Csk: I dont look at UFC or cage to gauge my fighting effectiveness. Its a totally different arena & game. 

I would also like to state that my response to you is not to try to convert or change your way of thinking. Its just that I love wing chun very much, so its my hope that any potential wing chun practitioner reading this, they may have an idea of how to approach finding a genuine wing chun kwoon, instead of a chopsuey school which tacks on this and that in order to compensate for their own failings rather than that of wing chuns.

Its also in my experience & opinion, the reason why so many wing chun practitioners dont really comprehend wing chun is due to the fact that their masters focus solely on the combative side of the method. To the Chinese, all martial arts are for developing the mind as well as the body. If you neglect the mental training, all you have left is a strong body governing a weak mind. A good example of what Im talking about is the learning of the keun kuit  guidelines left by our wing chun ancestors to help ones development in wing chun. Guidelines that were forge in the fire of actual combat. If one only bothered to take the time in absorbing & understanding those kuen kuits, they wouldnt be saying the things they are saying now.

Other than posting seminar details, I will stop posting here for sometime. There are too many things to enjoy in life than 'arguing' with people on forums -- like training wing chun LOL

Happy training all, and good luck with your wing chun journey.


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## Si-Je (Jul 14, 2008)

Kamon, I've taken JJJ (japanese) and reached high rank in that art before I got the chance to learn WC.  I was an avid supporter of ju-jitsu, and tested my now hubbie on several occasions.  WC DOES have ground "game", darlin'.  That's what I've been trying to tell ya.

One time we went to a BJJ seminar with a couple of our students, and no, we do NOT enter someone's class or school like loudmouth braggarts.  We were respectful and actually had fun.  But the problem was as we went through the BJJ techniques they were showing, was that we had a student with one arm.  He could not execute the BJJ techniques that were being shown at the seminar.  Instead of him getting frustrated, Hubbie coached him how to get out of grappling holds using anti-grappling and WT/WC techniques.  

We were NOT rude, we waited and let the BJJ instructors teach him, and coach him through the BJJ techniques until our student asked us for help.  The BJJ instructor found the techniques interesting and said so.  It was VERY civil and fun too.
Show me BJJ done by a skinny teenage boy with one arm, and I'll think about learning further BJJ.

Now for the Gracies, man, I'll TRY to be diplomatic.  I was training JJJ (Japanese) at the time, and we never liked the technique.  What you describe anti-grappling as a mesh of "different" grappling techniques, is similar to how I and my teachers at the time saw BJJ.  It's like they went to a JJJ seminar, and then just started making stuff up.  
I've NEVER seen a video of the Gracies challenging and fighting an Aiki Ju-Jitsu instructor, or Krav Maga, Penjack Silat, or Kempo stylist.  They seem to challenge and video tape folks and styles they're sure they can win.  And the kung fu stylists I've seen them fight, gave a good fight.  As for Gracie's beating any WC/WT practitioner, haven't seen that video.  
(and understand, if there IS a video of them fighting one of these stylists, please send a link, I really don't have alot of time to surf videos being a mommy)

As for my Hubbie using WC and anti-grappling technique on BJJ practicioners, he's defended and sparred against a 10 year instructor of BJJ and JKD (he'd been practicing longer, but teaching 10 years) only by rooting his stance while he shot into him to grapple a takedown.  (I haven't seen my hubbie use too much anti-grappling because he hasn't had to use it yet in sparring or in challenges.  
(They haven't gotten him to the ground very often yet, and when they do.  He's quick to gain his feet again.)
Now, this particular BJJ and JKD instructor was a GREAT guy, and he came to our school to spar on our sparring day.  It was with friendliness and open arms we welcomed other folks from other arts to come and spar at our school with us and students anytime.  He had a great time, and no one got hurt.  But the point was made and demonstrated.  This guy is REALLY GOOD at BJJ, and had enough JKD skill to contend in stand up sparring too.  (that's another thread)  
I wanted to video tape it soooo badly.  But, I didn't want to in a way, because we became friends and we didn't want to "make him look bad" or whatever.  He is an excellent martial artist and fighter!

As for the woman boxer we trained for a spell... Her boyfriend and owner/trainer of the boxing gym had been doing boxing for 20 years!
He was very skilled!  And the rules of boxing DO allow you to punch your opponent as many times as you can, so the chainpunching did NOT violate boxing "rules of engagement".  She didn't use kicking, elbows, knees, etc.  Just punching, dai sau, tan and pac sau.  ("blocking is legal in boxing isn't it? even if most boxer's NEVER block and the gloves are oversized?)
And, just because it annoys me that you ellude that any of these "men" could take off their gloves and beat her up, I have to say...,,, PHAAAAA!  

In that situation, WC rulez!  If they wish to get downright nasty about being bested by a girl/woman, or matched at their own game, and decide to be butt heads about it;  we trained her enough to take care of that too.  
Then, the "rules" are null and void, duder.  She's free to kick the knee and groin, eye gouge with her dai sau (I LOVE doing that) elbow the temple, and chop the throat repeatedly.  That's a different conversation altogether.
So, why do you assume just because a woman held her own against bigger man at boxing and made him sweat too, that he's just "not very good at his style"?  Or that if a WC/WT person bests a BJJ guy that that grappler didn't train for very long or wasn't very good at BJJ?
That agravates me.
You assume too much to fit things into your way of thinking because you don't want to see what we're trying to tell you.  

I know!  I used to do the VERY same thing when I started training WC.  I was a downright pain in the butt to teach, always questioning.  And even then, it wasn't until a year into training that I FINALLY started to let go of my JJJ way of thinking, and seeing defense and attack.  I was totally hard headed, and payed for it by getting jammed up and pulling muscles trying to get my JJJ techniques to work on a very relaxed, and flowing practicioner (hubbie).

This weekend he put me against the wall at the apartment and "clinched" me,  in practice.  My first thought was, "oh, crap, this could be a problem!" (I'd never tried WC from that position before and we were kinda simulating being put up against the cage, but the wall was harder.  it didn't give at all!)
Sure, if any ju-jitsu practicioner is allowed to "lock out" as we used to put it, then the counter will be more advanced and take more time to learn.  But you focus on avoiding and re-directing the grappler until you get to the level to be able to start using energy, and get into the higher concepts of "anti-grappling".

He showed me how to get out of a clinch (and mind you.  I'm a full foot shorter than him, so when he clinches me he chokes me with his shoulder, and when he underhooks my arms, this brings my arms way over my own head.  very uncomfortable.)
Tensing up here, you actually help the BJJ or JJJ stylist to hurt you.  (I used to love joint locking tense weight training muscular men in JJJ, it made the techniques easier sometimes.)

But, realize, you have an entire, complete arsenal of WC at your disposal to use BEFORE they compromise your position to defend and clinch or "lock out" on you.  Besides, if they are to attack from that position they're going to have to shift their weight (to leg sweep, knee, strike you) and then your going to have something to work with.  I may not be able to do much to him at that second, per say, but he's not going anywhere without me knowing about it in advance.
When they go to execute whatever technique, you respond to the energy they give you. Doesn't matter if you know what the technique is going to be, works better if you don't know.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 15, 2008)

chisauking said:


> Csk: The cheung & boztepe fight have been done to death, so Im not going over old, old ground once again; suffice to say that the fight was unjust and one-sided, and it doesnt represent wing chun  as a method  one way or another. Further more, for all those thatd bothered to look into this pathetic farce closely, Emin himself confessed to the details of the fight and the preparation leading to the fight recently, and hes also apologies for the sad incident.



The argument wasn't whether it was a good fight, but the point was that people have been arguing that it is easy to keep your feet or antigrapple. Cheung didn't and he is supposed to be one of the best chunners in the world. The fight was sloppy and a bit farcical. But the fight went to ground, and that was a chunner vs chunner!!! So a BJJ guy who trains even more takedowns than chunners aren't going to be able to take them down to the floor???



chisauking said:


> Once again, I will state that I have nothing against BJJ or ground grappling  in fact, BJJ is a very good method. What Id strongly disagree with was your notion that wing chun was weak\flawed in the ground game, and to support your ill-conceived claim, you brought up the 100s of videos on utube showing wing chun people being bashed up by BJJers. I responded by saying that those fights were against wing chun mannequins and were far from conclusive.



There are a few fights of BJJ guys against very good kung fu guys
The Gracies have an open dojo, meaning that anyone is welcome to go challenge them. Many have. And all have lost. 
But we are almost talking cross purposes. The argument has stemmed from the contention that a chunner will never be taken to the ground, to a chunner having no ground game. These are seperate issues
To clarify my position:
1) A chunner will be very difficult to take down to the floor but not impossible
2) Once a chunner is on the floor with a BJJ guy on top or underneath, the chuner has next to no chance
If you truly despute these then merely post a vid of you on the floor with ANYONE (doesn't have to be a BJJ guy). 
I have never seen a good wing chunner come out well when he is on the floor, and I have seen/trained with many many masters (not just Kevin Chan)



chisauking said:


> In any case, if BJJers like so much to film themselves beating wing chunners so much, they must have visited lots of wing chun clubs. Whats to stop them from visiting Boztepes club with their Kodak?



Please re-read my posts...
After Boztepe made comments about the Gracies, they offered for him to come to their dojo. He refused. They offered to come to his club, but he made some excuse. They have always been very open to challenges. 



chisauking said:


> Also, wasnt it you who said to Sie-jar that if someone could show you a video clip of a wing chunner beating a BJJ, you would be more inclined to believe what shed said? Well, why dont you put the same test on yourself? Go to Boztepes seminar with your Kodak, and ask him you want to disprove his anti-grappling nonsense. Show US how youre going to take him down with your BJJ skills and then we will all be more inclined to believe what you say. In fact, if you could show this, I will be the first one to join Kevins BJJ class. .



Firstly, it would be Cheung vs Boztepe all over again!! 
Secondly I would be thrown out of Kamon 
Thirdly, because of my size, people would always argue that it was an unfair mismatch. 




chisauking said:


> Csk: Once again, the effectiveness of BJJ and some of its techniques isnt called into question. The argument is whether its efficient & practical for a wing chun practitioner to learn a whole new system in order to address but one permutation of combat? Wing chun concepts teaches us how to find solution within our method, and how not to play to our opponent's advantages. .



I agree with the argument that you shouldn't have to learn a WHOLE new style to deal with one permutation of combat. But that is not my argument. The argument is that you should take a little bit of what BJJ gives you. The same is with sparring. I will never be a point scoring karate master. But I like to understand the movement of people who use long range forms of combat (TKD, MT, boxing etc) so that I am not blind to it when I come across a good TKD guy. Whilst you might want to play your game (short range wing chun), remember that your opponent might not let you. Just like wing chunners will 'never' let a BJJ guy take them down, a good fighter might 'never' let you close the fight down. So it is good to be aware of different styles, even train up a bit in them so that you aren't shocked at what they do.




chisauking said:


> Csk: I think its sad that YOU dont understand the simplicity, efficiency & effectiveness in the way he'd countered his opponent.



I understand the point that you were trying to get across, but it wasn't a great point. Maybe a better point would have been if a person is trained to fight with knives, don't learn to knife fight, just get a gun. 
But the point is that you may get into a situation where you can't use use your gun, or your gun doesn't work. 



chisauking said:


> Csk: I agree with what you are saying here..but why play their game at all? And, how would simple BJJ going to counter a good BJJ player if you engage in their game?



 Because you are using wing chun as well!!! 
I think you are assuming that if you fight a BJJ guy with BJJ you are only using BJJ. That is not what we do. I get people into a side mount and use elbows or palm strikes to smash them into submission. as you said, trying to outkick a good kicker is fruitless. But kicking a punching a good kicker is not fruitless....




chisauking said:


> Csk: I dont look at UFC or cage to gauge my fighting effectiveness. Its a totally different arena & game.



Don't get me wrong. UFC and Cage Rage is bound by rules, limitations, weight categories etc and is not a great gauge of a street fight, but it does hold many truths. A person who has done only one art gets beat, simple as. Even the grapplers learn striking and good kicking before they go in. If you only have one weapon, you are going to get beat



chisauking said:


> I would also like to state that my response to you is not to try to convert or change your way of thinking. Its just that I love wing chun very much, so its my hope that any potential wing chun practitioner reading this, they may have an idea of how to approach finding a genuine wing chun kwoon, instead of a chopsuey school which tacks on this and that in order to compensate for their own failings rather than that of wing chuns.


As I have said, the wing chun training at Kamon is one of the best you will find. All moves done in the kwoon are wing chun, although they may look like they are from other arts. Take a classic Muay Thai double clinch. We do similar movements taken from the dummy form which transition into two fook saos at the back of the head
We utilize very strong wing chun - even to attempt to stop people taking us to the ground. But the point is that if someone does get us to ground (where the strong stance is gone) BJJ assists us getting into a comfortable position where we can then go back to using our wing chun



chisauking said:


> Its also in my experience & opinion, the reason why so many wing chun practitioners dont really comprehend wing chun is due to the fact that their masters focus solely on the combative side of the method. To the Chinese, all martial arts are for developing the mind as well as the body. If you neglect the mental training, all you have left is a strong body governing a weak mind. A good example of what Im talking about is the learning of the keun kuit  guidelines left by our wing chun ancestors to help ones development in wing chun. Guidelines that were forge in the fire of actual combat. If one only bothered to take the time in absorbing & understanding those kuen kuits, they wouldnt be saying the things they are saying now.



Very true statement. That is why many schools do formwork. People argue the use of forms, but my belief is that if all you do each day is hit pads and spar, you will turn into a nutter. Forms help you to relax and get that control. But that is really a different discussion



chisauking said:


> Other than posting seminar details, I will stop posting here for sometime. There are too many things to enjoy in life than 'arguing' with people on forums -- like training wing chun LOL
> Happy training all, and good luck with your wing chun journey.


That's a shame. You bring up good points. And I find arguments constructive. There are no personal feelings here. If you came into my kwoon, I'd welcome you like a brother. We are discussing opinions and different mindsets. Wing Chun for me will always be the best art I have done and the most interesting. Cage fighters I have trained with never understand why I do it, until I wrap them up and then they start to see that there is something to it. Maybe just not for them

Anyway, don't get disheartened about posting. Debate is fun. There is no right or wrong - only opinion. What works for one does not work for another


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## Si-Je (Jul 15, 2008)

I think what he's trying to say, is that when you find yourself dealing with a grappler you do NOT grapple back.

ex. If I get grabbed at the wrist, I punch with the free hand and kick. once the Meat is tenderized you chain punch follow through.
or, if clinched you don't hug or grapple the opponent, you pull and ear off, or lip, you could fook sau the forehead so to speak, each as your twisting your body to gain extra space for further attack.  
Whatever, just so you don't end up arm wrestling or body wrestling" your opponent.  
I'd lose to a grappler pretty quick that way, especially if he's bigger/stronger.  It would be more efficient to relax and use your dead weight to make manipulation harder for them.  The more effort they use to "tap" you out the more of a lever you'll have to re-direct their force off you.  But you keep moving.  Kinda like chi sau, but with your body as one.  Your always looking for the hole in their defense.  

Just say a grappler shoots in low and try to take your knees out, well, they just gave you their head, so take it! 
I try to never look a gift horse in the mouth! 

You can take the head and make the body follow.  If they pick you up off the ground, give them dead weight and crank that neck.  This will take almost all of the power out of their "takedown".  The harder they try to slam you on your back, the more they will hurt their own neck.

Go down butt first and when you get to the ground, you can get your knees under them, effectively keeping the bulk of their weight off you and giving you more room to kick, punch, and deflect their attack with legs and arms.  
Just practice laying on your back on the floor and stick your legs up and do bong sau with your legs.  It feels funny, and looks silly all by yourself, but nobodys looking, so try it.
Make sure your doing a half crunch, keeping your neck and head off the floor and your hands are in WC fight position.  Move side to side, like a turtle, with the heel of one foot and your shoulderblades.  

Then do a basic (or horse stance for some) on your back in the air, keeing your feet apart shoulder width.  When someone's "in your guard" between your legs, just jam your turned in knees into their chest, waist, stomach and push the legs foreward into them.  You can hold up their full weight this way and still be able to roll them off, deflect, punch and effectively keep them from getting close enough to choke you.  If their still too big, plant your feet into their hip bones, or on the knee they may have planted on the ground underneath your haunches (butt).
With a tight basic stance you can keep them from prying your legs apart to get in tighter to your torso.  
I've done this pregnant, it works!  You won't get tired, and your not exerting much energy.  

Point being you don't learn basic wrestling to compete against a wrestler.  You'll still lose, the wrestler has spent more time with wrestling, same goes for a good kicker, a boxer (I don't try to box a good boxer, I kick the knees take away the power of his punch, then blitz into him).

Work more on rooting with your stance, and you won't need to counter grappling as much.  (This is something I need alot of work in too!  Which reminds me,..)
Just encouraging you to try a different ground fighting method, try it with a buddie, one that knows BJJ too.  You might accidentally find a technique you like.


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## chisauking (Jul 15, 2008)

Kamon guy:

Reading your last post, I realise your not such a bad guy after all! In fact, I'm sure we would get on well if we meet up.

To be honest, though, I don't really think you understand the 'gist' of my post, and I'm not prepared to elaborate or 'share' too much on a forum.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree regarding the 'flaw' in wing chun groundwork. Should we meet up, you can always try to take me down.....but I warn you: I won't hold back with my 'firepower' and I will be wearing boots! (please don't take this as a challenge, because I just love to gwoh-sau with anybody, and I would treat it purely as a 'learning curve').

In regards to posting here, the truth is, I'm very, very busy with my own personal developments. The sad thing is, I do love to argue! LOL. But, I can understand that arguments on the net can really bring bad karma to the wing chun community in general.

BTW, I'm impress with your 'attitude'. I haven't been able to 'wind' you up, which demonstrates to me that you have a strong mind. Only people with confidence & strong self-belief can be 'generous' in their response.

This really has to be my last post here for some time.

So, I wish all my wing chun brother & sisters happy training.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 16, 2008)

chisauking said:


> Kamon guy:
> 
> Reading your last post, I realise your not such a bad guy after all! In fact, I'm sure we would get on well if we meet up.
> 
> ...


 
I'm only human, but forums don't ind me up unless they are personal (unreasonable attacks on people). Like a few websites I have visited, there is lots of sniping and backchat about people as opposed to martial arts. It is never productive. All I see in you guys are passionate martial artists concerned that people will think bad of your particular style. I can tell you know that they don't. People read these arguments and understand both sides of the story. People know what they want, and although I wish that everyone in the world took up wing chun, some people just don't have the patience/time/money. What attracts one person to a style might put another off. As human beings that is what makes us so interesting. Our differences mean that we don't always look at things the same way. We grow up differently, have different experiences and ultimately shape our personality individual to us. 

As wing chun artists, there are thousands of different theories and ways of looking at things. The only thing that does get to me is when people say an art is something is not. I saw a TKD school that claimed they were training purely for slef defence. Their fighting ability was appalling. That is not a reflaction of TKD in general, just that particular school. There is nothing wrong with saying a particular school of martial arts just trains the art side. I would have more respect for that, than a school that claims it trains ultimate knife defence when it doesn't

Chunners - never be afraid to voice your opinion. Even if your argument gets shot down, it is still productive. You might have a question that never gets answered by your Sifu, or you might like to see what people think of a certain thing. Until you ask or discuss it you will never know. 

Anyway, I hope you guys and gals are well

Peace out


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## dungeonworks (Jul 16, 2008)

chisauking said:


> Kamon guy:
> 
> Reading your last post, I realise your not such a bad guy after all! In fact, I'm sure we would get on well if we meet up.
> 
> ...



Good luck to you chisauking.  I hope you are busy in a "good" way and come back soon.  I enjoy reading your posts, this thread included.  At least this forum is kept civil.  Animated discussion is good, but some of the other Chun sites I visited.....I wouldn't even register! LOL

Take care.


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## naneek (Jul 18, 2008)

my thoughts on this matter lie not too far from kamons but never having seen anti grappling i wouldnt want to discount it either i try to stay open to all useful ideas that i am exposed to. aside from that kudos to you guys for keeping things civil and participating in a really stimulating debate:jediduel:


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 18, 2008)

naneek - I am loving your Star Wars light saber battle icon thingy. I can't stop watching it!!


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## bluesmuso (Jul 18, 2008)

Si-Ji, the man pivoting in the youtube link you posted is Albert Chong here in Australia, he has years and years of experience and is trained under Yip Man lineage, I trained at the same academy, he is a lovely modest fellow, gentle and polite in spite of the fact that he could take most people apart without breaking into a sweat, it is these true experts like Albert who inspire us all.

Thanks for posting the youtube link, I enjoyed it.

As for the WC vs BJJ thing, they are both highly efficient arts and exponents from both styles could benefit by learning some techniques from the other, it is easier to train BJJ full on and hardcore than Wing Chun simply because you cannot employ the dangerous WC techniques in training due to serious injury risk, ie, a choke or take down can still be performed full on but with some control, I have a past back injury so BJJ is probably not an option for me unfortunately because I think their techniques are awesome and (at my level anyway) virtually impossible to counter.

I mix Boxing with Wing Chun they marry together as a terrific fighting format from a striker's perspective, but I think BJJ grapplers may well be the most dangerous and efficient "one on one" fighters the world has seen.


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## bluesmuso (Jul 18, 2008)

bluesmuso said:


> Si-Ji, the man pivoting in the youtube link you posted is Albert Chong here in Australia, he has years and years of experience and is trained under Yip Man lineage, I trained at the same academy, he is a lovely modest fellow, gentle and polite in spite of the fact that he could take most people apart without breaking into a sweat, it is these true experts like Albert who inspire us all.
> 
> Thanks for posting the youtube link, I enjoyed it.
> 
> ...


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## naneek (Jul 19, 2008)

its groovy all right, thought it suited the cut and thrust of the discussion earlier and to be honest was looking for an excuse to use it lol


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