# Can anybody give me information on Russian MA...



## John Matrix.

That AREN'T Sambo, Systema or ROSS?

I know a little bit about Samoz, Buza, Skobar, Wallfighting from their sections in the ROSS manual, and more on others from this

www.martialtalk.com/forum...-2424.html

Also, does anyone have pictures of weapons of Russian origin, excluding firearms? Except for the Sasquetch (however you spell it), I've seen pictures of those.

I know of three Sambo books, the ROSS manual and a book on The System. Are there any other english books on dedicated to, or with good sections of Russian martial arts?

Any help would be greatly apperciated. Russian martial art info is hard to come by. 

I've been through three RMA forums, counting this one, and the only thing I know a little more about is the Wolf martial art.


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## RMACKD

There are tons of Russian martial arts. In the russian military they trained many arts. Even if you look at foriegn arts trained in Russia you will see a Russian flavor, for example most traditional oriental schools in Russia focus on practical applications in contrast of the rest of the world. They are preserving the combat aspect of the art really well. Also if you check out Russian Judo compared to standard judo. It is very different, almost like an entirely different art. Here is a link to a Russian style called Agni Kempo. It is a combination of karate, kung fu, and russian styles. http://www.agnikempo.org/default_en.asp Here is another link to Alexander Popov's Russian style. http://www.spetsnaz-gru.com Here is a 4 minute vid on borba http://www.alibitivi.com/tv.php?idFilm=263 Here is a link to a siberian art school http://www.viun.telefun.ru/start.php Here are some vids about Skobar http://www.rusland.spb.ru/ss.htm There is also an art called Draka that is a Russian kickboxing style that allows punches, kicks and throws. When you get through those links request some more and I will find some more.


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## RMACKD

Igor Vochancyn has created his own martial arts style called Kombat Kickboxing. http://mmavideos.co.uk/igor.htm One of the first Russian style to focus exclusively on mma fighting. There is also Russian Mix-Fighting style. It is made up of wrestling, sambo(as oppossed to BJJ which most mma schools focus on, right now I believe there are not BJJ schools anywhere in the former soviet union, correct me if I am wrong)thai boxing and boxing with a Russian flavor. They often use Russian concepts like casting punches. The russian schools seem ahead of other mma schools around the world which typically just teach no-gi bjj and basic kickboxing. The Russian schools are ahead due to the fact they teach stuff lacking in other places like lower bod subs, ground and pound, casting punches, takedowns, and other things. Going into the ring with just no gi bjj and basic kickbox doesn't work for the reasons above. Here is one link to a Russian Mix-Fight style school www.mix-fight.ru


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## John Matrix.

Thanks a lot! I loved the videos in the second and fifth link (were all those Skobar?)

Anything else would be apperciated.


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## Stratiotes

A couple of great articles and interview here that just came out:
http://www.meibukanmagazine.org/mm/DaviWB/Pagina7.html

 Look at issue #3 toward the bottom right.


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## RMACKD

John Matrix. said:
			
		

> Thanks a lot! I loved the videos in the second and fifth link (were all those Skobar?)
> 
> Anything else would be apperciated.


 The second link I posted was Alexander Popov's system and the 4th one was skobar. There is also some vid of russian arts at www.woin.ru They have quite a bit on russian combat systems like Bars and Unibos as well as some traditional russian ma's.


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## RMACKD

Here is another interesting system http://members.tripod.com/~CombatMachine/machin_e.htm It takes what the guy learned in the Russian military along with his Jujitsu and Viet Va Dao training and he adpats it more to civilian self defense. For example putting less emphaisis on bayonet fighting and more on defending against more common attacks on the street. Also www.rmax.tv has some good links. But currently its link page is down.


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## John Matrix.

RMACKD said:
			
		

> In the russian military they trained many arts.


Such as?


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## RMACKD

John Matrix. said:
			
		

> Such as?


ROSS, Systema, and Skobar were of course the most well known. The Russians also seemed to preserve the ancient more combative part of the oriental arts. There is als different types of combat sambo that they trained. Some seemed to have an emphasis on grappling and others had an emphasis on striking. There were different variants of rukopashnyi boi. It seems nearly every division trained something different. At the www.woin.ru site they have several vids on a paratroopers combat. The site says they can add english subtitles to the Russian films so I might try getting one of the vids. The way Russia trains oriental arts also interests me so I might check out a vid or two of that.


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## jellyman

The first guy I trained systema under had a prior background in Muy Thai, San Shou, Draka, and was also the vice-president of a kung fu associatin in Russia He went on an exchange program to communist china and learned some TJQ (Yang and especially Chen) and also had some sambo and wrestliong trraining. He could really use the TJQ too.

Thing s in Russia, even as a civvy, MA skill is actually useful


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## John Matrix.

Finally got around to reading that one link, and Combat Machine? I'm sorry, but Russians SUCK at naming martial arts.

Regardless, it looks pretty interesting. Particularly the beserker thing.


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## RMACKD

jellyman said:
			
		

> The first guy I trained systema under had a prior background in Muy Thai, San Shou, Draka, and was also the vice-president of a kung fu associatin in Russia He went on an exchange program to communist china and learned some TJQ (Yang and especially Chen) and also had some sambo and wrestliong trraining. He could really use the TJQ too.
> 
> Thing s in Russia, even as a civvy, MA skill is actually useful


 Wow talk about experience! Skilled in Systema, various forms of kickboxing and kung fu and he could use the kung fu. It seems interesting how much of the combative application of the traditional oriental arts the Russians know. Maybe they were taught it before it degenerated. Out of curiosity was your first teacher in the military? If so is that were he learned all those martial arts. Mtrix I agree that Combat Machine is a pretty cheesy name. But the Russians seemed to prefer good arts instead of arts with cool sounding names that sound good in video games and pop songs. Anyway I found a thread with lots of links that my interest you http://www.rmaforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19&start=0 On the same forum they have a Lubki introduction somewhere.


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## jellyman

> Out of curiosity was your first teacher in the military? If so is that were he learned all those martial arts.



Yes and no. Sergei was an engineer, and this made him eligible for officer training, but in a reservist capacity, i.e. he didn't have to see a lot of action on the front. The implicaion I got was that he used military connections who had connections with chinese miitary connections to arrange the exchange program, so you could say that the military was involved in a way.

He also had a job as a sort of debt-collector for *cough cough* genlemen requiring some discretion, which he later parlayed into a detective agency. A big difference between what he did and what you would expect from such a job description over here is that often the collectees were also organized, armed, and often dangerous.

He got into that line of work as a result of his rep as a sport fighter. He'd made the papers a few times, gotten some championships, and on the Soviet street, a sport fighter was in demand as muscle, maybe a step below being in spetsnaz for value.

I can corrobate this with what my friend Misha who used box during that time said - often street toughs would walk into his boxing gymn looking to boost their reps (and hourly rate) by going in the ring, and fighting dirty. His trainer would tell him "Infidel" (his coach was muslim) "if you do not beat this guy, you cannot box under me anymore." Misha's boxing is pretty dirty if he wants it to be -hidden elbows, cross buttocks that look like hooks, lotta old-school bareknuckle moves this guy knows ...

Anyway, one interesting bit of information from my first teach - when he started out collecting, with just the sport background, he would win his streetfights, but would often sustain some injury in the process. However, he then met this guy Lavrov in Krasnodar (if you look on certain websites, there is a series of articles related to RMA, primarily by Pachenko. Most of Pachenko's articles try to discredit the idea of a native RMA, but one article on that page has an interview with Lavrov). Lavrov knew some RMA, and according to Sergei, it made a big difference - no more injuries, and he understood his other stuff better. Lavrov was deteriorating by then tho - too much drinking. Anyway, Sergei sees the writing on the wall, moves to Canada wth his wife and an incredible amouint of liquid currency, teaches at a karate school for pocket money (did I mention he also has a 5th dan in karate?) and hears about Vladimir. He sort of thought it was a scam actually, and he wandered in with a very smug attitude, thought he'd have some fun and show some people up - and then Vlad pounded on him in such a fashion that he realized that Vlad was way more advanced than anyone he ever saw, and he really had a lot to learn. A familiar story for the people in Toronto.

Nowadays Sergei runs a resort camp in Eastern Ontario, doing quite well.


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## John Matrix.

http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/armoroff.html

You guys wouldn't know any way for me to view these pics, would you.


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## John Matrix.

http://www.xenophongi.org/rushistory/medievalarmor/partii.htm

Found this. Wide variety, but not everything.


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## jellyman

you'll need alta vista to translate

http://www.warriors.newmail.ru/obzor_rus.htm]


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## John Matrix.

I went to that link, and none of the links could help me since most, if not all of them, were in Russian. Though Androwell may be able to help me.

What's BARS like?


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## RMACKD

I have bought the KGB Alpha Manual which is a book about the Rukopashnyi Boi by A.I.Dolmatov. The system is comprehensive with kicks from karate, tkd, savate, thai kickboxing and a few various punching techniqes that can be classified from many styles. It has some thai and karate looking elbow attacks, a thai knee strike and some headbutts. The groundfighting is heavy on chokes. There are basic throws like the shoulder throw, double leg, grain sack throw and a few more. There are also techniques for arrest, getting a criminal out of a car, escapes from holds, knife fighting, quite killing, getting a criminal out of a room and other things. Its a very comprehensive system and looks like it has little in common with systema.


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## John Matrix.

I have heard VERY negative things about the KGB training manual. Apparently, the historical part is the only good part.


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## RMACKD

The manual has sketchy drawings and would be hard to learn from. It has a good history part and some pictures of Russian soldiers training that are good. The stuff in the maual has very little in common with Systema. Its interesting to see how different russian ma's can be.


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## John Matrix.

Hard to? Try impossible. You can't learn MA from a book.


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## John Matrix.

Eh? I read this in a Spetsnaz book.

"The soviet system CQB is called Rukopashnyi Boi and has two main components, unarmed combat and skill at arms. Kholodniye Oruzhniye (cold weapons) covers the use of a bayonet (shtky), entrenching tool (shantsevaya lopata) and knife (nozh). While visiting Ryazan, I was able, as a senior close-quarter battle instructor to compare training notes with snior rukopashnyi boi instructor Lt. Col. Vladimir Panteleev. Pantelev demonstrated protocols for throwing a knife or bayonet, altering the grip on the blade dependent on the distance to be thrown. The unarmed combat sextion of Rukopashnyi Boi is called Sambo"

So what, Rukopashnyi Boi and Sambo are one in the same?


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## Clive

John Matrix. said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but Russians SUCK at naming martial arts.



 :lool:  :burp:


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## still learning

Hello, Not familar with Russian MA, but I did send for a video and was impress by it. The Top Russian soldiers are people you do not want to meet in a war. Great stuffs. So much for my two cents. .."take coconuts"....Aloha


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## John Matrix.

I'd buy the videos, but most, if not all of them cost 39.99

I know a guy has to make a living, but that's waaaay too much.


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## John Matrix.

Would training is a MA that has techniques while training in ether ROSS or Systema interfer with one's training? It doesn't seem like you could effectivly combine a style that has techniques, and a style that doesn't.


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## John Matrix.

Bump.


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## mscroggins

I have been told, both live and via the internet, that ballroom dancing is the best form of crosstraining for Systema. In January I am going to give it a try. Remind me in Febuary and I will give you my impressions.

In the past I have tried Aikido and Eskrima on the theory that some knowledge of basic martial technique would be handy. It wasn't, not even in the least. Though Eskrima was handy for picking up a sense of timing, distance and rhythm - all the things I hear you learn ballroom dancing.


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## erich

Ballroom dancing is also a great way to meet women... I hear.


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## mscroggins

I observed a tango class yesterday. My initial impression is that the demographics in Seattle must skew younger than here. It was a very retirement aged set, though I think it varies from class to class.

But the crossover was obvious. Much of the class reminded me of the section in Beyond the Physical where Ryabko talks about the proper way of  turning your partner and/or yourself. I can't believe I ignored this excellent training opportunity for so long. Live and learn I guess.

And speaking of Beyond the Physical, when I first arrived, a bellydancing lesson was in progress - explains why so many old men arrived early - and I was immediately forced to sit by a chest wave that affected me from across the room.


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