# Wudang or just more wushu



## Ronnin (Jan 31, 2008)

Well I am very excited about the fact that I found a Wudang school in my area taught by Master Bing. A man who has lived in Wudang for 15 years, and has kust left it to come here 1 1/2 years ago. So to learn from this man is to learn from an authentic Wudag master. My only fear is has this art turned into another Shaolin. Now let me explain Shaolin guys and gals, it's not that I don't have respect for the art, on the contrary, but I believe that since the cultural revolution, Shaolin has been redefined as a bit of a tourist attraction. But that's off topic, does anyone here train in the Wudang arts, and can someone tell me it's not just mere Wushu ??!!


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## ggg214 (Jan 31, 2008)

i don't train Wudang arts!
in my knowledge,Wudang martial arts are created by daoist.
after years pass by, Wudang have divided into many different schools. each school has its own character, not only in martail arts, but also in Qi gong, Nei dan (internal dao).
but if you are not accepted by your master, you will never learn the key of this.
i suggest that you go and ask your master which school his belongs to, and what is the special in this school.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 31, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> Well I am very excited about the fact that I found a Wudang school in my area taught by Master Bing. A man who has lived in Wudang for 15 years, and has kust left it to come here 1 1/2 years ago. So to learn from this man is to learn from an authentic Wudag master. My only fear is has this art turned into another Shaolin. Now let me explain Shaolin guys and gals, it's not that I don't have respect for the art, on the contrary, but I believe that since the cultural revolution, Shaolin has been redefined as a bit of a tourist attraction. But that's off topic, does anyone here train in the Wudang arts, and can someone tell me it's not just mere Wushu ??!!


 
Sounds good, maybe.

Is this the Master Bing you are talking about
http://www.wudangdao.com/MASTER/MASTER.htm

http://www.wudangdao.com/

http://www.wudangdao.com/KUNGFU/kungfu_videos/from_wdgf/taiji28.htm

Wudang was not as affected by the Cultural Revolution as much as Shaolin when it comes to its Martial Arts. But that was not to say it was not hurt by it, many Taoist temples were destroyed, but it is still hard to say. 

Of late, IMO, Wudang has been going the same route as Shaolin, it too wants the western dollar. But was it that way 15 years ago? I don't think so but I am not 100% sure on that.

To make things harder; asking him about fighting or applications may or may not tell you anything considering his posted background. He would likely tell you it is for health since he does not know you well. My taiji Sifu would do the same and he is most assuredly not Wushu. 

And the fact that he did compete in Wushu competitions (if the link posted is the same sifu you are talking about) means little as well as to his skill. Some of the Chen family and some form Zhaobao lineage have done the same and they to are not what we call Wushu either. 

And remember these are internal styles so it is not likely you will get anything but form in the beginning with little of no work at all on applications.

And there is always the possibility that he is highly skilled and you really want to learn form him but you will need patients. There is also the possibility that he is highly skilled and he has discovered it is a lot easier to teach forms and only forms because it is less work for him and, sadly, he will have more students that way. There are a lot of possibilities actually.

If I were near there I would go check it out since that is the best way to tell.


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## Ronnin (Jan 31, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Sounds good, maybe.
> 
> Is this the Master Bing you are talking about
> http://www.wudangdao.com/MASTER/MASTER.htm
> ...


That is the same Master Bing. I did go to check out his class. They Did Tai chi, not sure which form, Fan, and Tai Chi sword all in a 2 hour class. I did express to him that I wanted to learn application, and he smiled and said "okay". He also teaches many forms of Kung Fu, meaning Mantis, Tiger, and so on. Although he's not really teaching it at the moment because he said he doesn't have enough students to do that yet. But I was talking to a guy there who is a student of Master Bing, during a break this student performed a Mantis set, quite well too, and I asked him if he'd takin that somewhere else. He said no Master Bing taught him. I also asked this student if Master bing has taught the application to it and he said yes. He said Master Bing will teach you what you want, just ask and he will.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 31, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> That is the same Master Bing. I did go to check out his class. They Did Tai chi, not sure which form, Fan, and Tai Chi sword all in a 2 hour class. I did express to him that I wanted to learn application, and he smiled and said "okay". He also teaches many forms of Kung Fu, meaning Mantis, Tiger, and so on. Although he's not really teaching it at the moment because he said he doesn't have enough students to do that yet. But I was talking to a guy there who is a student of Master Bing, during a break this student performed a Mantis set, quite well too, and I asked him if he'd takin that somewhere else. He said no Master Bing taught him. I also asked this student if Master bing has taught the application to it and he said yes. He said Master Bing will teach you what you want, just ask and he will.


 
Sounds good. 

The taiji is likely Taoist Taiji not a taiji family style like Chen, Zhaobao, Yang, etc. as his CMA likely is as well. If Wudang it has its own flavor and I wish I lived closer to check out the school myself.

Go with what he wants to teach you and you could be very happy and surprised in the long run.


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## AceHBK (Jan 31, 2008)

I didnt even know it was a style.  I mean I have seen kung fu movies make references to Wudang but didnt take it that seriously.  Nice website.  I like to hear how a class is.

Ashame you have to live in Cali or NYC to find some arts b/c of people immigrating to certain states.  The rest of us are left out


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## Taijiman (Jan 31, 2008)

My teacher is a Wudang expert, though I never learned any wudang specific forms from him.  Master "Bing" looks pretty darn good, though he obviously knows modern wushu as well as the wudang martial arts.  Some of there forms are probably modern creations (like some animal forms), and some are older (like wudang taiyi quan).  Wudang taiji quan usually has a Zhang Sanfeng legend attached to it, but is most likely a more modern creation branching off one of the family styles.  There's different wudang taiji's out there... usually to me it looks like Yang or Chen style with other martial arts mixed in (like bagua, xingyi, or native wudang martial arts).


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## Taijiman (Jan 31, 2008)

See, lots of Yang style influence.


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## Ronnin (Jan 31, 2008)

I am new to the Chinese arts, so how does one know they are doing Wushu, and not the real thing ?
I mean Wushu is meant to mimic the real thing and all.


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## Taijiman (Feb 1, 2008)

The problem is, you've develop a bias based on false assumptions.  Forget everything you think you know about wushu... Many of the best martial artists out there also train contemporary wushu and many famous traditional masters were wushu coaches.  Most older athletes are good at both.  You can't really tell who's "real" or not until you look past the forms.  Someone who's 100% contemporary now days will focus entirely on forms competition and nandu (the new difficulty focused scoring system).  Some contemporary forms work perfectly fine as traditional forms (like 24 taiji quan, and the beginning/intermediate longfist training forms) and some actually ARE traditional forms used for forms competition 

A general outline of a real traditional wushu program (just one example):

You'll have stationary and line exercises to condition and strengthen the body (a combination of individual techniques from the system, and separate exercises to develop strength and flexibility).

Body conditioning for giving and receiving strikes (bag work, partner conditioning exercises, etc.)

Martial and health qigong (internal development)

Application training (Sparring, and usually two person drills/forms... sometimes other application drills focusing on specific skills like sticky hands or push hands).

And application should always consist ti (kick), da (strike), shui (throw), and na (lock).  So basically both striking and grappling.  There might be some kind of sport fighting training (like san da) which is great for learning and perfecting basic striking, throwing, timing, and so on.  But there will probably also be present techniques you can't use in sport (like clawing and illegal grappling moves, for example) that you'd also learn at some point.

Of course this is a very general and simplified explanation.  There's always going to be variety in Chinese martial arts.  If you look at the meat of their training system, that'll weed out a lot of sub-par schools.  If you just worry about modern vs. traditional, and what lineage it's from without having a trained eye, you might over look something over silly political reasons or join up with a sub-par traditional school (someplace with authentic lineage... but that's lost something along the way).  The lineage aspect is kind of tricky with Wudang because there's a lot of legend and tall tales involved no matter how far back you go.  Not to mention, many older generation wudang masters are just flat out unknown to most people.  It's something that'd be tough to research without already knowing an old timer from the area, and knowing Chinese.  From what I've seen of the wudang guys, they look very fast and strong, and I know there's at least some wudang lineage there through a now deceased friend of my last teacher's (a style called Wudang Wuxing Taiyi Quan... Wudang 5 element great spirit boxing? sorry, my Chinese is still pretty minimal ).


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## Taijiman (Feb 1, 2008)

And sorry in advance if I forgot anything important... I'm a bit sleepy


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2008)

Taijiman said:


> The problem is, you've develop a bias based on false assumptions. Forget everything you think you know about wushu... Many of the best martial artists out there also train contemporary wushu and many famous traditional masters were wushu coaches. Most older athletes are good at both. You can't really tell who's "real" or not until you look past the forms. Someone who's 100% contemporary now days will focus entirely on forms competition and nandu (the new difficulty focused scoring system). Some contemporary forms work perfectly fine as traditional forms (like 24 taiji quan, and the beginning/intermediate longfist training forms) and some actually ARE traditional forms used for forms competition
> 
> A general outline of a real traditional wushu program (just one example):
> 
> ...


 
Agreed

Also generally if you are training Wushu say a Long Fist form and you are training fighting and applications you will not be training applications in the long fist form you will be training Sanshou, and as you mentioned it will be that sports version.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> I am new to the Chinese arts, so how does one know they are doing Wushu, and not the real thing ?
> I mean Wushu is meant to mimic the real thing and all.


 
Basically Contemporary Wushu is more acrobatic than the style or form it is based on.

*Wushu Taiji
*



 
*Not Wushu Taiji applications* - Zhaobao





*Non-Contemporary Wushu Taiji Forms*

Chen Style




 
Yang Style

Yang Shou Zong (Yang Sau Chung)




 
Tung Hu Ling




 
Yang Jun
Part 1




Part 2




Part 3




 
Chen Manching Style




 
Wu Style

Part 1 





Part 2 




 
Northern Wu Style




 
Hao Style
Hao Shaoru (1907-1983) [1of2]





Hao Shaoru (1907-1983) [2of2]




 
Sun Style
Sun Jianyun





Sun Jianyun


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## Taijiman (Feb 1, 2008)

> Basically Contemporary Wushu is more acrobatic than the style or form it is based on.


Not necessarily.  There's a big difference between competition longfist (and now taiji too) than the training forms and some of the other style competition forms.  The duan forms aren't much different than what you might find in traditional Cha Quan or Hua Quan.  And don't forget the 24 move taiji quan form is contemporary wushu, though many traditionalists use it as an intro form (it's a good routine... same goes for most of the other modern taiji forms).


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2008)

Taijiman said:


> Not necessarily. There's a big difference between competition longfist (and now taiji too) than the training forms and some of the other style competition forms. The duan forms aren't much different than what you might find in traditional Cha Quan or Hua Quan. And don't forget the 24 move taiji quan form is contemporary wushu, though many traditionalists use it as an intro form (it's a good routine... same goes for most of the other modern taiji forms).


 
True, hadn't thought of the 24 form and other taiji competition forms and you think I would of since I learned them years ago. I was just taking into account a lot of the stuff you now see done in competition in China that was done in attempt to get it into the Olympics. They are pushing the envelope these days on what the human body is actually capable of and it is causing a lot of injury. 

I have never seen Chaquan outside of contemporary Wushu so I would not know. I know some of the Changquan stuff is somewhat exaggerated though. And I always get a kick out of the name Huaquan because that is also part of a rather nasty CMA insult about ones martial art ability "Huaquan Xui Tui" Basically pretty to look but just a dance.

And being a traditionalist I do not use 24 as an intro form, nothing against it, it was the first taiji form I learned from my first CMA Sifu but I would not personally use it as an intro form for traditional Yang style. But you are correct that many do.


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## Ronnin (Feb 1, 2008)

wow everyone thanks, that's a lot of good info. i really hope master bing is okay with teaching me the application. i know i'll have to train in form first and then apps. will come later, just as long as the opportunity is there.


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