# Drawing blade under pressure?



## frank raud (Oct 7, 2016)

I was having a discussion on knives and self defense on Facebook, I suggested that practicing the ability to actually get your weapon out while being attacked is something that should be practiced, to see if you favourite thumb stud, hole or flipper works under pressure. The reaction I got from one person was that was a crazy thing to do, you either had your knife out before things got nuts, or you create distance to allow you time to open your blade. Speed is not  essential. Oh really?

I look at being able to draw your weapon under pressure as being similar to being able to punch/counterpunch while being attacked. It's great to be able to demonstrate and practice your favourite rib destroying punch from a static position, but can you make it work when the other guy is trying to take your head off?

Does anyone else practice drawing a knife while being attacked? Or am I that special kind of crazy?


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 7, 2016)

Sure, it's nice to have your weapon out before things get nuts - that might well prevent things from getting nuts in the first place.
And yes, creating distance to draw your weapon is also a fine idea. But it's much easier to create a little distance than a lot of distance. And the faster you can draw, the less distance you need to create.
Now, if I am reaching for a weapon, it is far more likely to be a gun than a knife, but the principles are the same.

However, none of this should be considered an opinion on whether or not you are, in fact, a special kind of crazy....


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## Buka (Oct 7, 2016)

Nah, speed in drawing your weapon isn't essential. Just say Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. Even if you say it slow, I'm sure the bad guy will wait.

You ain't crazy, bro. Accessing your weapon, any kind of weapon, is key. We've even practiced drawing while grappling.


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## drop bear (Oct 7, 2016)

It depends what you are risking by doing it.  It does not take many face punches to drop a dude.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 7, 2016)

I believe that a weapon can only be drawn when there is a lack of or a pause in attacking pressure.  Sometimes there is space and sometimes not.  I train to always scan and look for a weapon every time one of these intervals occur.  
Yes I believe in training to draw the weapon to bring it into play. My own code of ethics says that a weapon should only be used when the disparity of force is great enough to warrant a deadly response.  It should be assumed that in a deadly force encounter the level of stress is very high ( coopers,,red or Grossman ' gray).
Under that level of stress people often find it difficult to dial 911 or even remember that have a weapon. 
I sure would hate to fumble it and drop it on the ground.


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## KangTsai (Oct 7, 2016)

I have my own technique of expertly quick-drawing my thumbstud folder by hooking/pressuring it with my trouser pockets. Much like an Emerson wave.


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## Tez3 (Oct 8, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> I have my own technique of expertly quick-drawing my thumbstud folder by hooking/pressuring it with my trouser pockets. Much like an Emerson wave.



Back or front pockets? I just think front pockets could be incredibly perilous to your 'health'.


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## frank raud (Oct 8, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> I have my own technique of expertly quick-drawing my thumbstud folder by hooking/pressuring it with my trouser pockets. Much like an Emerson wave.


I'm  assuming tip up carry and pulling to the rear. You find that reliable enough on a quick draw?


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## drop bear (Oct 8, 2016)

So nobody considers a slow draw? So you can hang on to the thing while you are fending off impacts to the head?


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 8, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So nobody considers a slow draw? So you can hang on to the thing while you are fending off impacts to the head?



The longer it takes to draw, the longer the drawing hand is absolutely useless for fending off impacts. I cannot think of any reason you'd want to draw slowly.


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## KangTsai (Oct 8, 2016)

frank raud said:


> I'm  assuming tip up carry and pulling to the rear. You find that reliable enough on a quick draw?


That and/or front draw from opposite pocket. Yea I think so.


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## KangTsai (Oct 8, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Back or front pockets? I just think front pockets could be incredibly perilous to your 'health'.


Front pockets; all is safe.


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## frank raud (Oct 8, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So nobody considers a slow draw? So you can hang on to the thing while you are fending off impacts to the head?


Why not practice the draw so you can do it quickly?


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## frank raud (Oct 8, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> That and/or front draw from opposite pocket. Yea I think so.


If you don't mind, what knife are you using, and how is the clip set up?


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## drop bear (Oct 8, 2016)

frank raud said:


> Why not practice the draw so you can do it quickly?



I am conservative in street fights. If i can reduce a risk i will. 

Even before i get in to a fight i like to stop, look and then hit the thing with some sort of plan.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 8, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I am conservative in street fights. If i can reduce a risk i will.



In what way do you think occupying your hand for a longer time while drawing your weapon will reduce risk?


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## drop bear (Oct 9, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> In what way do you think occupying your hand for a longer time while drawing your weapon will reduce risk?



Reduces the risk of dropping it.


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## KangTsai (Oct 9, 2016)

frank raud said:


> If you don't mind, what knife are you using, and how is the clip set up?


This one.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 10, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Reduces the risk of dropping it.



Except you're more likely to get clocked upside the head while drawing slowly, which would seem to increase the risk of dropping it.


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## drop bear (Oct 10, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Except you're more likely to get clocked upside the head while drawing slowly, which would seem to increase the risk of dropping it.


Am I? Wouldn't know.  I assume i would draw inbetween head clocks. Or use foot work or something.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 10, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Am I? Wouldn't know.  I assume i would draw inbetween head clocks. Or use foot work or something.



And... the faster you draw, the less time you need, which means you'll have the weapon in hand sooner.
Practicing to draw slowly is simply foolish.


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## drop bear (Oct 10, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> And... the faster you draw, the less time you need, which means you'll have the weapon in hand sooner.
> Practicing to draw slowly is simply foolish.



Like running across a road rather than walking. It is safer.


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## frank raud (Oct 10, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Like running across a road rather than walking. It is safer.


So, faster is better?


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## drop bear (Oct 10, 2016)

frank raud said:


> So, faster is better?



With crossing a road faster is generally frowned upon.( explosives as well)

It is also one of the lessons they tried to drive home during that surviving edged weapons video a bit. That instead of being a quick draw. you create space for a secure draw.






And.(but I cant find the video) I am pretty sure if you watch a dog brothers fight, where they go for sneaky folders. They tend to be pretty slow coming out as well.

So intuitively I can see why faster is considered better. I was wondering if that was really the case.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 10, 2016)

*In IRT we practice regularly* how to draw firearms, knifes, flashlights, etc.  You need to spend time doing this in training to have a chance to make it work when you need it.  Along with the system of practicing drawing and deploying your tool you have to also add in movement such as getting off line, retreating, closing, etc.  One thing I have personally found is that practicing your draw under stress is important.  Scenario training is very good for this as you do not know what is coming or if it is essential that you deploy your tool and you are typically behind the opponents potential action.  Drawing and deploying while performing an exercise also helps in this process.  Try doing pushups and then performing a draw or run sprints and then perform a draw, etc.  I do this weekly with the knife but also with firearms training.  *Trying to mimic the adrenal response!*


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## Juany118 (Oct 16, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> And... the faster you draw, the less time you need, which means you'll have the weapon in hand sooner.
> Practicing to draw slowly is simply foolish.



Precisely.  Here is the thing, it's not speed, it's how fluid you are with your draw that effects a potential drop, whether it be with a knife or a gun.  You only get fluid if you practice.  Do "dry fire" training without pressure and then work in pressure testing.  Start slow, be fluid.  Speed it up as fast as you can, while maintaining fluidity.  Takes time but it works.


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## Juany118 (Oct 16, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *In IRT we practice regularly* how to draw firearms, knifes, flashlights, etc.  You need to spend time doing this in training to have a chance to make it work when you need it.  Along with the system of practicing drawing and deploying your tool you have to also add in movement such as getting off line, retreating, closing, etc.  One thing I have personally found is that practicing your draw under stress is important.  Scenario training is very good for this as you do not know what is coming or if it is essential that you deploy your tool and you are typically behind the opponents potential action.  Drawing and deploying while performing an exercise also helps in this process.  Try doing pushups and then performing a draw or run sprints and then perform a draw, etc.  I do this weekly with the knife but also with firearms training.  *Trying to mimic the adrenal response!*


I do the exact same thing.  My Department has its own outdoor range and a co-worker and I go there.  25 yard sprint>drop do 15-20 push-ups fast, stand up...don't draw until the other says "threat!!!"


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## Juany118 (Oct 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> With crossing a road faster is generally frowned upon.( explosives as well)
> 
> It is also one of the lessons they tried to drive home during that surviving edged weapons video a bit. That instead of being a quick draw. you create space for a secure draw.
> 
> ...



The part of that video isn't so much about making distance as opposed to maintaining safe distance from the beginning.  Once a person is accelerating to a full sprint to get you, you are pretty much SOL if you are caught unprepared within a certain radius.  The movement only comes in, explicitly in that video, if you are already at a distance where you can draw your weapon.  In short it is all about maintaining, not creating proper reactionary gaps.

Now every encounter is different but if you are in a scenario where a trained fast draw isn't possible then, at least imo, a slow deliberate draw isn't going to be really possible either.

As Dirty Dog said, in different terms, if you are under assault you have one of two options... deploy the weapon as fast as it can be accounting for your skill/training level.  Another option (if it workable) is to keep using both hands to defend yourself because in drawing the weapon you have taken one out of the equation.  I believe you yourself has said it takes only a couple good hits to the face to take someone down. In my experience the longer you are short that one hand the more time you give the assailant to get solid shots in.

I said "if workable" because obviously if the assailant has a gun and has some range, using your hands to defend yourself isn't an option.


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## drop bear (Oct 16, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The part of that video isn't so much about making distance as opposed to maintaining safe distance from the beginning.  Once a person is accelerating to a full sprint to get you, you are pretty much SOL if you are caught unprepared within a certain radius.  The movement only comes in, explicitly in that video, if you are already at a distance where you can draw your weapon.  In short it is all about maintaining, not creating proper reactionary gaps.
> 
> Now every encounter is different but if you are in a scenario where a trained fast draw isn't possible then, at least imo, a slow deliberate draw isn't going to be really possible either.
> 
> ...



That cop who was getting drowned or something then shot the guy.  Was that because of a successful fast draw?


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## Juany118 (Oct 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> That cop who was getting drowned or something then shot the guy.  Was that because of a successful fast draw?



And what the heck does that have to do with the point, which boils down to "fast over slow"?  If you are talking about the post I made a while ago btw he didn't shoot the guy, he pulled a knife and stabbed him, my first question still remains.  You train to be as fast as you can be while remaining fluid, which means to be in control.  If your training prioritizes empty hand then yes I would suggest slow, if however you expect to use weapons I would say train to draw them as fast as possible with fluidity.  I really don't see the issue.


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## drop bear (Oct 16, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> And what the heck does that have to do with the point, which boils down to "fast over slow"?  If you are talking about the post I made a while ago btw he didn't shoot the guy, he pulled a knife and stabbed him, my first question still remains.  You train to be as fast as you can be while remaining fluid, which means to be in control.  If your training prioritizes empty hand then yes I would suggest slow, if however you expect to use weapons I would say train to draw them as fast as possible with fluidity.  I really don't see the issue.



Sorry.  This sort of idea. 

"Now every encounter is different but if you are in a scenario where a trained fast draw isn't possible then, at least imo, a slow deliberate draw isn't going to bereally possible either."


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## Juany118 (Oct 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> That cop who was getting drowned or something then shot the guy.  Was that because of a successful fast draw?



Before I answer are you talking about the guy who basically falls back in an effort to create distance and still gets stabbed?  I will admit I didn't click your link because after multiple times of viewing I have watched the full video so I can describe each scene.  I actually discuss it regularly with the wife.  She's a cop too and I want her to study Guro Dan's Kali with me at school (the guy doing the stabbing in the first few scenarios).  Almost have her convinced .


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## Juany118 (Oct 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Sorry.  This sort of idea.
> 
> "Now every encounter is different but if you are in a scenario where a trained fast draw isn't possible then, at least imo, a slow deliberate draw isn't going to bereally possible either."



Every scenario is different because you could have someone bigger and stronger that they have you so you can't strike them BUT you can slowly draw a weapon they are unaware of... Vs the guy simply punching the crap out of you and you have to move quick.  Think the 100lbs girl pinned down by the 200 lbs guy for a date rape...she may have the luxury of a slow draw... Two equally sized matched opponents, that luxury doesn't exist imo.


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## Justin Chang (Oct 17, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Precisely.  Here is the thing, it's not speed, it's how fluid you are with your draw that effects a potential drop, whether it be with a knife or a gun.



I agree completely, and with training you become more fluid which will make you faster.  One of my instructors has a phase that has always stuck with me "Slow is fast, slow is smooth, smooth is fast, slow is fast".


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 17, 2016)

Justin Chang said:


> I agree completely, and with training you become more fluid which will make you faster.  One of my instructors has a phase that has always stuck with me "Slow is fast, slow is smooth, smooth is fast, slow is fast".



This has been a truism in the world of auto racing for as long as I can remember.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 17, 2016)

Practice drawing your weapon so many times that it becomes hard wired, when you have done so, it stops becoming something you think about doing and becomes a function of your will.

It is on the order of 10000 times.
For 6 months, spend one hour endlessly deploying your weapon slowly, with perfect form.
Perform the exact (progressively faster) in sequence 6 times daily for 5 years. Eventually, it is mapped into muscle memory, starts being an autonomic function, requiring little to no conscious thought to perform.

A while back I posted a video by Dr. Eagle man from his video series on the human brain.

In that video a young kid (champion cup stacker) is hooked up to an EEG to measure brain activity as he performs a highly skilled activity.

At the same time Dr. Eagleman tries to follow him step by step in the same task.

They show and compare the two levels of brain activity.

The difference is highly significant.

Also..
The young boy started performing his cup stacking kata called “The Cycle” as in the cup stacking cycle, and in the beginning it took him between 120 to 150 seconds perform the task. (2 to 2 & 1/2 minutes)
After a number of years (and in about 3600 total hours), his practice of the routine had reduced the time down to 5 seconds.
*Even blind folded*.

There is some other amazing gems about thebrain in Dr David Eagleman's series on the human brain. Stuff martial arts should know and inform their training methods.


Practicing the repeated kata allowed him to shave an incredible amount of time off the performance of the task.


And also move it from conscious effort to unconscious effort.

Which has enormous value in a martial art setting. Especially if you hardwire defensive/offensive actions into one’s involuntary response.

Your body will react to the threat before your conscious mind will have time to consider options.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 17, 2016)

Here is the clip

THE BRAIN WITH DAVID EAGLEMAN | Cup Stacking Champion | PBS - YouTube


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 17, 2016)

TSDTexan said:


> Practice drawing your weapon so many times that it becomes hard wired, when you have done so, it stops becoming something you think about doing and becomes a function of your will.
> 
> It is on the order of 10000 times.
> For 6 months, spend one hour endlessly deploying your weapon slowly, with perfect form.
> ...



Just curious TSD texan,,you disagreed with my earlier post. What do you disagree with?   Your post and mine both agree to practice  a draw for muscle memory.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 18, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> Just curious TSD texan,,you disagreed with my earlier post. What do you disagree with?   Your post and mine both agree to practice  a draw for muscle memory.




I had to go back and look because I didn't remember that I disagreed with you. Turns out that when I hit the agree button it registered the next button over.

I have been on my Samsung S7 Active a lot more these days. The buttons are pretty close together on my phone, and I can be really fat fingered at times.

So no, I don't disagree with you at all.
I reset it to reflect my actual view.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 18, 2016)

TSDTexan said:


> I had to go back and look because I didn't remember that I disagreed with you. Turns out that when I hit the agree button it registered the next button over.
> 
> I have been on my Samsung S7 Active a lot more these days. The buttons are pretty close together on my phone, and I can be really fat fingered at times.
> 
> ...


Ok cool. It was just confusing because your post said everything I agree with.


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## Buka (Oct 18, 2016)

I always taught it as it was taught to me - "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."


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