# wing chun



## Mr.J

I am attempting to teach myself siu lim tau. Form and i found an app that demonstrates the complete form an breakdown. I was just wondering if anyone could tell me the liniage of this version. Because frankly i dont want to be just some wanker who nows nothing if the liniage. Sadly im poor and removed from many options. So if any one has usefull information. The app is here its for droid Operating system.

曾氏詠春拳(Wing Chun-Siu Lim Tao) - Android Apps on Google Play

From what i can tell the app is siu lim tau. And it does follow the middle line and all other tenets of wing chun.


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## Flying Crane

I am sorry to be the one to bring you bad news, but the honest truth is that video, as the primary source of instruction, is a mistake and you should not do it.  You need to work directly with a teacher for this stuff, there are too many subtleties and nuances that can only be taught in a hands-on, face-to-face arrangement with a good teacher.  Anybody who tells you differently is lying to you.

If a good teacher is not available to you, then my condolences, but this endeavor is simply out of your reach.  Don't waste your time and efforts with this app or anything like it.  You may learn to mimick the form, but all the important stuff is guaranteed to be wrong.  The bad habits you develop will make it much more difficult to learn properly if you find a good teacher later.

Video, or an app, is NOT better than nothing.


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## Mr.J

Flying Crane said:


> I am sorry to be the one to bring you bad news, but the honest truth is that video, as the primary source of instruction, is a mistake and you should not do it.  You need to work directly with a teacher for this stuff, there are too many subtleties and nuances that can only be taught in a hands-on, face-to-face arrangement with a good teacher.  Anybody who tells you differently is lying to you.
> 
> If a good teacher is not available to you, then my condolences, but this endeavor is simply out of your reach.  Don't waste your time and efforts with this app or anything like it.  You may learn to mimick the form, but all the important stuff is guaranteed to be wrong.  The bad habits you develop will make it much more difficult to learn properly if you find a good teacher later.
> 
> Video, or an app, is NOT better than nothing.



Thank you for your opinion. I have taught myself many things this will be no different. 

In the valley of the blind the one eyed man is king.


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## Mr.J

Flying Crane said:


> I am sorry to be the one to bring you bad news, but the honest truth is that video, as the primary source of instruction, is a mistake and you should not do it.  You need to work directly with a teacher for this stuff, there are too many subtleties and nuances that can only be taught in a hands-on, face-to-face arrangement with a good teacher.  Anybody who tells you differently is lying to you.
> 
> If a good teacher is not available to you, then my condolences, but this endeavor is simply out of your reach.  Don't waste your time and efforts with this app or anything like it.  You may learn to mimick the form, but all the important stuff is guaranteed to be wrong.  The bad habits you develop will make it much more difficult to learn properly if you find a good teacher later.
> 
> Video, or an app, is NOT better than nothing.



Also that was not the question i asked. My main quiestion was that of liniage of the movements and there set up. Please read the full post before employing a generic answer.

No man is more blind then he who relys on only one sense.


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## Flying Crane

Mr.J said:


> Also that was not the question i asked. My main quiestion was that of liniage of the movements and there set up. Please read the full post before employing a generic answer.
> 
> No man is more blind then he who relys on only one sense.


I know what your question was.  But I gave you an answer that actually matters.  

Do what you want with it, if you choose to pursue this that is up to you.  At least I know I gave you a truthful answer, so the choice to waste your time is yours alone.

Best of luck to you.


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## Mr.J

Flying Crane said:


> I know what your question was.  But I gave you an answer that actually matters.
> 
> Do what you want with it, if you choose to pursue this that is up to you.  At least I know I gave you a truthful answer, so the choice to waste your time is yours alone.
> 
> Best of luck to you.



thank you.
And if i said the true purpose of wing chun was to teach the middle way what would you say?


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## Flying Crane

Mr.J said:


> thank you.
> And if i said the true purpose of wing chun was to teach the middle way what would you say?


I don't have an opinion on that one way or the other.  So your mileage may vary.


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## Mr.J

Flying Crane said:


> I don't have an opinion on that one way or the other.  So your mileage may vary.



And that is why others require teachers.


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## Flying Crane

Mr.J said:


> And that is why others require teachers.


"Others," but not you?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf




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## Mr.J

Flying Crane said:


> "Others," but not you?


No i am not allowed. but that is something others think me mad for. So ill leave it at that.


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## Mr.J

kempodisciple said:


>


Very true. But i am not trolling though you employ there tactics with your statement.

Nothing is impossible only improbable.


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## Flying Crane

Mr.J said:


> No i am not allowed. but that is something others think me mad for. So ill leave it at that.


As I say, best of luck to you.


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## Mr.J

Flying Crane said:


> As I say, best of luck to you.



Thank you.


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## Tames D

I'm not seeing anything in the link for me to determine lineage.Maybe I'm not getting everything from the link?


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## Mr.J

Tames D said:


> I'm not seeing anything in the link for me to determine lineage.Maybe I'm not getting everything from the link?



Yeah thats the same conclusion i came too. I was hopeing someone could download the app and help with the liniage based on the movements provided. if you are unable to do so i understand. And thank you for not cosigning the opinion of a crane.


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## Flying Crane

Mr.J said:


> Yeah thats the same conclusion i came too. I was hopeing someone could download the app and help with the liniage based on the movements provided. if you are unable to do so i understand. And thank you for not cosigning the opinion of a crane.


Put it to rest, son.

I gave you honest, good advice.  It's not the answer you wanted, and you are welcome to take it or leave it.  I've moved on, I expect you to do so as well.


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## Mr.J

Flying Crane said:


> Put it to rest, son.
> 
> I gave you honest, good advice.  It's not the answer you wanted, and you are welcome to take it or leave it.  I've moved on, I expect you to do so as well.


 Your the one still dwelling on it.


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## Flying Crane

Mr.J said:


> Your the one still dwelling on it.


I don't appreciate the jab you made at me, in your response to Tames D.

Grow up and put it to rest.


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## Mr.J

Flying Crane said:


> I don't appreciate the jab you made at me, in your response to Tames D.
> 
> Grow up and put it to rest.


And i dont appreciate opinions that are not asked for. As you did in your first post to me.

If the string is to tight it will break. If it is to lax the music will not play. You must find a place between the middle way.


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## Flying Crane

Mr.J said:


> And i dont appreciate opinions that are not asked for. As you did in your first post to me.
> 
> If the string is to tight it will break. If it is to lax the music will not play. You must find a place between the middle way.


Good luck to you sir, I suspect your tenure will be brief.

Time for some popcorn.


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## Mr.J

Flying Crane said:


> Good luck to you sir, I suspect your tenure will be brief.
> 
> Time for some popcorn.


Enjoy. And i suspect nothing of you.


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## Juany118

I would not suggest using that.  I did use a video to help learn and still use it on occasion just so I don't feel like I am doing it alone.  The difference is the video I use is by the person GM William Cheung chose to serve as the North American Liaison for the World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association.  This is what my Sifu teaches but the video does a decent enough break down for what I think your purposes are.  In a different thread you said you were considering it, not so much as to learn the proper techniques (the Sil Lum Tao is basically the foundation of all WC techniques) for WC fighting but as meditation.  I can't speak to the app in question but this DVD is decent for that purpose.  SIL LUM TAO REVEALED

If you wanted to actually build that foundation to move onto WC fighting, I would side with Flying Crane.  In the beginning you will have issues if an instructor isn't there to catch you because their are seemingly little things in the structure of the Mah, proper placement of the arms, etc.


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## Mr.J

Juany118 said:


> I would not suggest using that.  I did use a video to help learn and still use it on occasion just so I don't feel like I am doing it alone.  The difference is the video I use is by the person GM William Cheung chose to serve as the North American Liaison for the World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association.  This is what my Sifu teaches but the video does a decent enough break down for what I think your purposes are.  In a different thread you said you were considering it, not so much as to learn the proper techniques (the Sil Lum Tao is basically the foundation of all WC techniques) for WC fighting but as meditation.  I can't speak to the app in question but this DVD is decent for that purpose.  SIL LUM TAO REVEALED
> 
> If you wanted to actually build that foundation to move onto WC fighting, I would side with Flying Crane.  In the beginning you will have issues if an instructor isn't there to catch you because their are seemingly little things in the structure of the Mah, proper placement of the arms, etc.


I agree with crane a teacher would make things easier but he was rude. Also im not useing just the one app im useing all of the internet. And i have a threory about wing chun. as for hand placement i keep everything relative to the center line never straighten an arm unless its a strike and keep my elbows one fist length away from center with the acception of bong sau. Any help you can give about and placement relative to body part is welcome but mostly its for meditation oneday i might find a teacher and on that day ill hand him a stick and tell him/her to use as he/she sees fit to correct my misalignments.


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## Juany118

Mr.J said:


> I agree with crane a teacher would make things easier but he was rude. Also im not useing just the one app im useing all of the internet. And i have a threory about wing chun. as for hand placement i keep everything relative to the center line never straighten an arm unless its a strike and keep my elbows one fist length away from center with the acception of bong sau. Any help you can give about and placement relative to body part is welcome but mostly its for meditation oneday i might find a teacher and on that day ill hand him a stick and tell him/her to use as he/she sees fit to correct my misalignments.




And if its just for meditation cool BUT if you do intend to learn WC later you will essentially have to relearn the form based on what you just explained because you can't just be focusing on the center line though.  You need to be focusing on the elbow when you move your _tan sau_ forward, not the hand or the shoulder.  You need to have your hand for the form in particular relationship to your mouth/nose, otherwise the angle of the elbow is incorrect for a _tan_.  One fist away from the center would be wrong for _tan sau_ in the _fuk_ section also.

It's not earth shattering to relearn it.  My Sifu originally studied WC under one school of thought, moved to the William Cheung School and basically had to relearn a lot of it.  It can be done, just be prepared for it if you take that step.


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## Mr.J

Juany118 said:


> And if its just for meditation cool BUT if you do intend to learn WC later you will essentially have to relearn the form based on what you just explained because you can't just be focusing on the center line though.  You need to be focusing on the elbow when you move your _tan sau_ forward, not the hand or the shoulder.  You need to have your hand for the form in particular relationship to your mouth/nose, otherwise the angle of the elbow is incorrect for a _tan_.  One fist away from the center would be wrong for _tan sau_ in the _fuk_ section also.
> 
> It's not earth shattering to relearn it.  My Sifu originally studied WC under one school of thought, moved to the William Cheung School and basically had to relearn a lot of it.  It can be done, just be prepared for it if you take that step.


I am but like i said im useing all the information at my desposal on the internet. The hard part is seperating the cream from the curd.


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## Juany118

Mr.J said:


> I am but like i said im useing all the information at my desposal on the internet. The hard part is seperating the cream from the curd.



The problem is these videos don't tell much. the details about the angles of the elbows, pelvis (yes there is a particular pelvic tilt)etc are lacking. Add to that the issue that different schools of thought have the opening of the form and feet placement different.  Not better or worse just different.

In short on the internet you see what are, for lack of a better term "ads" that leave out important bits.  They are there to encourage attending a school that follows a particular school of thought and WC has a zillion different schools of thought.  If you don't account for this...pick one specific video line... you will be a confused mess.  So if you insist on free internet videos (which is bad for martial arts, trust me, I have had to fight irl in green and blue since 1991) pick one and stick with it.  At least then you will have some consistency.


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## Mr.J

Juany118 said:


> The problem is these videos don't tell much. the details about the angles of the elbows, pelvis (yes there is a particular pelvic tilt)etc are lacking. Add to that the issue that different schools of thought have the opening of the form and feet placement different.  Not better or worse just different.
> 
> In short on the internet you see what are, for lack of a better term "ads" that leave out important bits.  They are there to encourage attending a school that follows a particular school of thought and WC has a zillion different schools of thought.  If you don't account for this...pick one specific video line... you will be a confused mess.  So if you insist on free internet videos (which is bad for martial arts, trust me, I have had to fight irl in green and blue since 1991) pick one and stick with it.  At least then you will have some consistency.



And i have my own thoughts of wing chun. As for the schools of thought on wing chun it is mostly an ancient pissing match of whos wing chun can beat whos based on the body structure of the person who set up that school of thought. Which detracts from its purpose.


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## Juany118

Mr.J said:


> And i have my own thoughts of wing chun. As for the schools of thought on wing chun it is mostly an ancient pissing match of whos wing chun can beat whos based on the body structure of the person who set up that school of thought. Which detracts from its purpose.



But the thing is this you want to seperate the good from the bad but because none of the videos really get into the nuance of the form AND different videos will do things differently due to Lineage differences, there is no real way to tell the good from the bad.  

Some videos that look bad, (the classic guy in his basement) can actually be pretty good, some of the videos with decent production values and look to be filmed in a school can actually be pretty bad.  There really is no way to tell unless you have knowledge and experience before you click "play".


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## Mr.J

Juany118 said:


> But the thing is this you want to seperate the good from the bad but because none of the videos really get into the nuance of the form AND different videos will do things differently due to Lineage differences, there is no real way to tell the good from the bad.
> 
> Some videos that look bad, (the classic guy in his basement) can actually be pretty good, some of the videos with decent production values and look to be filmed in a school can actually be pretty bad.  There really is no way to tell unless you have knowledge and experience before you click "play".


I am aware. Do you meditate?


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## Mephisto

lol, op has got to be one if the biggest tools I've seen on martial arts forums yet. Flying crane was more than respectful and nice, the op just got upset because he heard an opposing opinion. My thoughts on wing chun aside he's not going to be any good teaching himself. I've met more than a few self taught guys, they all vastly overestimate their ability. Fighting ability is not a coy diy skill and to assume it is insults those who have trained hard and long hours legitimately. Op feel free to post some training videos if you're so confident. I'm confident you're dillusional and you've taken offense at legitimate friendly true advice.


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## Juany118

Mr.J said:


> I am aware. Do you meditate?



Yes, I have done Zen Meditation for about 2 decades now and have started to try Tai Chi Chuan, as a meditative and health regime, not as a true martial art.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> lol, op has got to be one if the biggest tools I've seen on martial arts forums yet. Flying crane was more than respectful and nice, the op just got upset because he heard an opposing opinion. My thoughts on wing chun aside he's not going to be any good teaching himself. I've met more than a few self taught guys, they all vastly overestimate their ability. Fighting ability is not a coy diy skill and to assume it is insults those who have trained hard and long hours legitimately. Op feel free to post some training videos if you're so confident. I'm confident you're dillusional and you've taken offense at legitimate friendly true advice.



Martial training is not my primary goal. And as for my skill level. Its simple enough to survive a drunk love at a bar and far less then those who dedicate there life to it. And im not concerned with those trained Mainly cause those who dedicate there life to i dont have to worry about because 8 out ten times they also have self control.




Juany118 said:


> Yes, I have done Zen Meditation for about 2 decades now and have started to try Tai Chi Chuan, as a meditative and health regime, not as a true martial art.



Good. i started teaching myself meditation at the age of seven.  Funny thing i never knew thats what i was doing when i was a child. Thats why i need a form based meditation. Ive already convinced the monkey holding the stick to sit still.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> lol, op has got to be one if the biggest tools I've seen on martial arts forums yet. Flying crane was more than respectful and nice, the op just got upset because he heard an opposing opinion. My thoughts on wing chun aside he's not going to be any good teaching himself. I've met more than a few self taught guys, they all vastly overestimate their ability. Fighting ability is not a coy diy skill and to assume it is insults those who have trained hard and long hours legitimately. Op feel free to post some training videos if you're so confident. I'm confident you're dillusional and you've taken offense at legitimate friendly true advice.



And as for you thought that i took offense were none was.

 Its not what one say thats important its how ones words are percived that is. 

Sadly i often fall short of curveing the perception of my words.


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## Tames D

Mephisto said:


> lol, op has got to be one if the biggest tools I've seen on martial arts forums yet. Flying crane was more than respectful and nice, the op just got upset because he heard an opposing opinion. My thoughts on wing chun aside he's not going to be any good teaching himself. I've met more than a few self taught guys, they all vastly overestimate their ability. Fighting ability is not a coy diy skill and to assume it is insults those who have trained hard and long hours legitimately. Op feel free to post some training videos if you're so confident. I'm confident you're dillusional and you've taken offense at legitimate friendly true advice.


I would be more interested in what you have to offer dude.  Please post a video of your superior skills, and we can do some gentle critique on your abilities. That is... if you have the balls. You are the one being disrespectful. You sound like a lovely 12 year old.


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## Mr.J

Tames D said:


> I would be more interested in what you have to offer dude.  Please post a video of your superior skills, and we can do some gentle critique on your abilities. That is... if you have the balls. You are the one being disrespectful. You sound like a lovely 12 year old.



Thanks for this. It made me smile.


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## Mr.J

Juany118 said:


> But the thing is this you want to seperate the good from the bad but because none of the videos really get into the nuance of the form AND different videos will do things differently due to Lineage differences, there is no real way to tell the good from the bad.
> 
> Some videos that look bad, (the classic guy in his basement) can actually be pretty good, some of the videos with decent production values and look to be filmed in a school can actually be pretty bad.  There really is no way to tell unless you have knowledge and experience before you click "play".



If you have a moment good or bad run through siu lim tau?


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> And as for you thought that i took offense were none was.
> 
> Its not what one say thats important its how ones words are percived that is.
> 
> Sadly i often fall short of curveing the perception of my words.


Well call it what you want but you were less than cordial when replying to sound advice.


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## Mephisto

Tames D said:


> I would be more interested in what you have to offer dude.  Please post a video of your superior skills, and we can do some gentle critique on your abilities. That is... if you have the balls. You are the one being disrespectful. You sound like a lovely 12 year old.


Why would I post a video in this thread? I don't do or care about wing chun. I'm not even talking to you but you're welcome to comment. I chimed in because the op seems a little smug about himself and his ability to self teach a martial art. I'm of the opinion that martial arts can be self taught. To think otherwise is imo insulting to people who have invested long hours in proper training. I've met guys who said they know "some" if my art but haven't ever trained it under an instructor, and they know nothing of the art. it's insulting. The op did clear things up though, he's not interested in fighting or doing things properly so it doesn't matter. He's treating it like a dance, that's fine if it makes him happy.


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## Tames D

Mephisto said:


> Why would I post a video in this thread? I don't do or care about wing chun. I'm not even talking to you but you're welcome to comment. I chimed in because the op seems a little smug about himself and his ability to self teach a martial art. I'm of the opinion that martial arts can be self taught. To think otherwise is imo insulting to people who have invested long hours in proper training. I've met guys who said they know "some" if my art but haven't ever trained it under an instructor, and they know nothing of the art. it's insulting. The op did clear things up though, he's not interested in fighting or doing things properly so it doesn't matter. He's treating it like a dance, that's fine if it makes him happy.


Post a video of your skills or shut the fuk up. You might not be talking to me, but I'm talking to you.


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## Tames D

[/QUOTE]


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## Juany118

Mephisto said:


> Why would I post a video in this thread? I don't do or care about wing chun. I'm not even talking to you but you're welcome to comment. I chimed in because the op seems a little smug about himself and his ability to self teach a martial art. I'm of the opinion that martial arts can be self taught. To think otherwise is imo insulting to people who have invested long hours in proper training. I've met guys who said they know "some" if my art but haven't ever trained it under an instructor, and they know nothing of the art. it's insulting. The op did clear things up though, he's not interested in fighting or doing things properly so it doesn't matter. He's treating it like a dance, that's fine if it makes him happy.


Maybe some but WC really isn't one of them.  Here is the issue.  Many Martial arts involve gross motor function, WC however has a lot of fine motor function.  I have yet to see a video online that say, talks about the angle of a _tan_ and the various ways to apply it.  This applies to more than a few things actually.  Fine motor skills aren't things easily picked up via videos unless the videos are incredibly lengthy and even then, without someone there to correct the minor issues, you will have issues.  Example, in WC simple punching.  When you punch you need to be as relaxed as possible (hard for me, my nickname in the Army was "stress monster" for a reason.)  Just the other night we were doing a drill in class.  The drill is basically one student attacking with punches either Sun fist or Buffalo punches (because in real life people will round house ya), the other student simply defends.  No you don't fight this way just a drill.  That said there was my Sifu...AGAIN noticing and correcting me that, especially when doing chain punches as the aggressor, my shoulders were in a tensed position I didn't even notice myself.

Now is that kinda anal retentive?  Maybe, or maybe it's just that a Martial art and it's proper execution, just like painting, goes beyond simply watching someone do it.  To learn the techniques that grow into a skill it's about the minutia you can't get from simply watching videos.  I watch videos too, but those videos are to augment the skill set I already possess due to proper training.  Would you want the Army, or your Police Department to be trained via video with no hands on instruction?  Same concept. 

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Mr.J

Sent f[/QUOTE]


Mephisto said:


> Well call it what you want but you were less than cordial when replying to sound advice.



I was far more cordial then i had to be. And dont compare meditation to a dance. Its a short sighted understanding of the process. Also you might want to not type angry you miss spell your words and send a messgae meaning the opposite of your intent.


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## Mr.J

Juany118 said:


> Now is that kinda anal retentive?  Maybe, or maybe it's just that a Martial art and it's proper execution, just like painting, goes beyond simply watching someone do it.  To learn the techniques that grow into a skill it's about the minutia you can't get from simply watching videos.  I watch videos too, but those videos are to augment the skill set I already possess due to proper training.  Would you want the Army, or your Police Department to be trained via video with no hands on instruction?  Same concept.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



wing chun was never meant to be a schooled form. Not completely least that is one of my threorys. It was meant to so short fast effective methodology of how the body can react to threats. Why else was it taught to a woman who's only need for it was to defend herself from a bandit intent on takeing what he wanted by force?


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## Midnight-shadow

Mr.J said:


> wing chun was never meant to be a schooled form. Not completely least that is one of my threorys. It was meant to so short fast effective methodology of how the body can react to threats. Why else was it taught to a woman who's only need for it was to defend herself from a bandit intent on takeing what he wanted by force?



I think there are a few people on here who would disagree with you on that, so tread lightly. I don't know enough how Wing Chun history to comment on that statement however.


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## Mr.J

Midnight-shadow said:


> I think there are a few people on here who would disagree with you on that, so tread lightly. I don't know enough how Wing Chun history to comment on that statement however.



Your concern is appreciated. As for those who would disagree... As my grandfather would say everyone has the right to be wrong even them. As i said its only a theory only time will tell.


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## Juany118

Mr.J said:


> wing chun was never meant to be a schooled form. Not completely least that is one of my threorys. It was meant to so short fast effective methodology of how the body can react to threats. Why else was it taught to a woman who's only need for it was to defend herself from a bandit intent on takeing what he wanted by force?


It was meant to be an art learned faster than others yes and that through constant practice on your own you can maintain it.  The problem is it is based on a very specific body structure angles of the elbows etc. that you program via the forms.  Each form leads to the next.   

3 open hand forms> mook jong forms > buttery fly swords> 6.5 point pole.  Where Chi Sau comes in is up to the teacher.

 I have yet to find a video that describes the minutia of SLT, or any of the forms to the point that you can actually do the self teaching.

Look at it like a house.  The form, especially SLT, is the foundation.  You can be the best carpenter in the world but if you can pack the ground properly or pour a concrete pad right, the wooden house you build will be structurally unsound and fall apart.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Mephisto

Tames D said:


> Post a video of your skills or shut the fuk up. You might not be talking to me, but I'm talking to you.


Really? You're cursing at me? What's your problem? Sorry but I'm not posting anything, it's lose-lose to satisfy the demands of a hostile request like yours. If you weren't being so abrasive I might actually post something but I don't see the point. I don't know why you're so offended, I haven't addressed you or said anything to you. I didn't start this thread, I'm not the one who's ignoring advice given to me.


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> Sent f




I was far more cordial then i had to be. And dont compare meditation to a dance. Its a short sighted understanding of the process. Also you might want to not type angry you miss spell your words and send a messgae meaning the opposite of your intent.[/QUOTE]
You were still obviously perturbed. If you're gonna call out people for spelling errors you'd best check your posts first last time I checked "messgae" isn't a word.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> I was far more cordial then i had to be. And dont compare meditation to a dance. Its a short sighted understanding of the process. Also you might want to not type angry you miss spell your words and send a messgae meaning the opposite of your intent.


You were still obviously perturbed. If you're gonna call out people for spelling errors you'd best check your posts first last time I checked "messgae" isn't a word.[/QUOTE]

You can stop talking now your just spreading ignorance.


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> You were still obviously perturbed. If you're gonna call out people for spelling errors you'd best check your posts first last time I checked "messgae" isn't a word.



You can stop talking now your just spreading ignorance.[/QUOTE]
Specifics?


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## Mr.J

Juany118 said:


> It was meant to be an art learned faster than others yes and that through constant practice on your own you can maintain it.  The problem is it is based on a very specific body structure angles of the elbows etc. that you program via the forms.  Each form leads to the next.
> 
> 3 open hand forms> mook jong forms > buttery fly swords> 6.5 point pole.  Where Chi Sau comes in is up to the teacher.
> 
> I have yet to find a video that describes the minutia of SLT, or any of the forms to the point that you can actually do the self teaching.
> 
> Look at it like a house.  The form, especially SLT, is the foundation.  You can be the best carpenter in the world but if you can pack the ground properly or pour a concrete pad right, the wooden house you build will be structurally unsound and fall apart.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


First of all mook jong and 6.5 have nothing to do with the original form they were added later when wing chun was introduced to the junk boat opera. As for a single video haveing all the information your right but all the videos combined thats a different story.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> You can stop talking now your just spreading ignorance.


Specifics?[/QUOTE]
Shhhhhh.


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> Specifics?


Shhhhhh.[/QUOTE]
Are we not going to have an adult discussion? There's no need to act like a child. If you have a problem address it and let's discuss it.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> Shhhhhh.


Are we not going to have an adult discussion? There's no need to act like a child. If you have a problem address it and let's discuss it.[/QUOTE]

I dont waste my time on a closed ignorant mind. Shhhhh.


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> Are we not going to have an adult discussion? There's no need to act like a child. If you have a problem address it and let's discuss it.



I dont waste my time on a closed ignorant mind. Shhhhh.[/QUOTE]
Who said my mind is closed? Is name calling how you have a productive discussion? Why don't you just "dislike" more of my posts? I'm open to discussion my mind is not closed. For a guy that started the thread with a bunch of philosophical tag lines at the end of every post your consciousness seems to be slipping to a lower level. I'm willing to discuss whatever your misgivings are. But first you'd have to be an adult and adress them. Name calling won't do any good, we can't make any progress with that.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> I dont waste my time on a closed ignorant mind. Shhhhh.


Who said my mind is closed? Is name calling how you have a productive discussion? Why don't you just "dislike" more of my posts? I'm open to discussion my mind is not closed. For a guy that started the thread with a bunch of philosophical tag lines at the end of every post your consciousness seems to be slipping to a lower level. I'm willing to discuss whatever your misgivings are. But first you'd have to be an adult and adress them. Name calling won't do any good, we can't make any progress with that.[/QUOTE]
shhhhhhhhhh.


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> Who said my mind is closed? Is name calling how you have a productive discussion? Why don't you just "dislike" more of my posts? I'm open to discussion my mind is not closed. For a guy that started the thread with a bunch of philosophical tag lines at the end of every post your consciousness seems to be slipping to a lower level. I'm willing to discuss whatever your misgivings are. But first you'd have to be an adult and adress them. Name calling won't do any good, we can't make any progress with that.


shhhhhhhhhh.[/QUOTE]
Again, you're not giving anything constructive. What is your problem?


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> shhhhhhhhhh.


Again, you're not giving anything constructive. What is your problem?[/QUOTE]
Shhhhhh


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> Again, you're not giving anything constructive. What is your problem?


Shhhhhh[/QUOTE]
No I won't "shhhh" act like a man. This isn't middle school.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> Shhhhhh


No I won't "shhhh" act like a man. This isn't middle school.[/QUOTE]
Shhhhhh.


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> No I won't "shhhh" act like a man. This isn't middle school.


Shhhhhh.[/QUOTE]
Dude I'm not gonna stop. I'm sure the mods will be along soon enough.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> Shhhhhh.


Dude I'm not gonna stop. I'm sure the mods will be along soon enough.[/QUOTE]
No. I already told i dont waste my time on a close ingnorant mind. If you want to change that ask yourself what makes your actions imputant ignorant and close minded.


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> Dude I'm not gonna stop. I'm sure the mods will be along soon enough.


No. I already told i dont waste my time on a close ingnorant mind. If you want to change that ask yourself what makes your actions imputant ignorant and close minded.[/QUOTE]
Really? After you told me to "shhh" for a half dozen posts? After you "disliked" and "funny" rated all my posts? I'm the one that's closed minded and ignorant? I honestly have no clue what your problem is.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> Really? After you told me to "shhh" for a half dozen posts? After you "disliked" and "funny" rated all my posts? I'm the one that's closed minded and ignorant? I honestly have no clue what your problem is.


To answer your questions in order. Yes. Yes. Yes people who attempt to make demands over the aether are hilarious. Yes look at your sentence structure and wording.No ones twisting your arm to continue on child.

I have never tried to force something that I didn't end up breaking.


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> To answer your questions in order. Yes. Yes. Yes people who attempt to make demands over the either are hilarious. Yes look at your sentence structure and wording.No ones twisting your arm to continue on child.
> 
> I have never tried to force something that I didn't end up breaking.


Dude your above post is full of typos so  please don't even bother. You're trying to distract from the fact that you're unwilling to state or discuss your problem. This is a martial arts forum let's discuss martial arts. Your name calling and hypocritical grammar arguments distract from the point or lack thereof. You started this thread, I don't know what kind of personality disorders you suffer from but it's becoming increasingly evident that something is not right here. If I'm wrong I'm willing to discuss it. But first you'd have to tell me what I've said that you think I'd wrong. Right now you're just parroting what I've said. I comment that you're acting like a child and now you're calling me a child. You're acting like a sociopath or someone with personality disorder. So once again I'll ask you, state your problem and let's discuss it.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> lol, op has got to be one if the biggest tools I've seen on martial arts forums yet. Flying crane was more than respectful and nice, the op just got upset because he heard an opposing opinion. My thoughts on wing chun aside he's not going to be any good teaching himself. I've met more than a few self taught guys, they all vastly overestimate their ability. Fighting ability is not a coy diy skill and to assume it is insults those who have trained hard and long hours legitimately. Op feel free to post some training videos if you're so confident. I'm confident you're dillusional and you've taken offense at legitimate friendly true advice.





Mephisto said:


> Why would I post a video in this thread? I don't do or care about wing chun. I'm not even talking to you but you're welcome to comment. I chimed in because the op seems a little smug about himself and his ability to self teach a martial art. I'm of the opinion that martial arts can be self taught. To think otherwise is imo insulting to people who have invested long hours in proper training. I've met guys who said they know "some" if my art but haven't ever trained it under an instructor, and they know nothing of the art. it's insulting. The op did clear things up though, he's not interested in fighting or doing things properly so it doesn't matter. He's treating it like a dance, that's fine if it makes him happy.


.

Imagine some one wrote these words to you.


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> .
> 
> Imagine some one wrote these way to you.





Mr.J said:


> .
> 
> Imagine some one wrote these way to you.


Well there's a start! I'm of the opinion that you can't self teach a fighting art. That's what the quoted posts reference. I think that's what other posters told you and you replied a little too smug in my opinion. You might be able to self teach other skills but you can't self teach fighting. If you're not worried about gaining fighting ability it doesn't matter, have at it. However, you can't claim to know an art or tell people you know an art when you have no formal training in that art. I've met guys who have claimed exactly this, they claim to have trained "x" art "a little" in some cases if they have some semblance of humility. But if you have no formal training you don't know an art. I find it insulting that a person thinks they can self teach an art or claim to know an art with no formal instruction. However, if you don't currently have access to an instructor but want to begin learning with the intention to eventually find a proper instructir there is hope. That's my stance, if you don't like it I'm sorry. If I stated it too bluntly I'm sorry.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> Dude your above post is full of typos so  please don't even bother. You're trying to distract from the fact that you're unwilling to state or discuss your problem. This is a martial arts forum let's discuss martial arts. Your name calling and hypocritical grammar arguments distract from the point or lack thereof. You started this thread, I don't know what kind of personality disorders you suffer from but it's becoming increasingly evident that something is not right here. If I'm wrong I'm willing to discuss it. But first you'd have to tell me what I've said that you think I'd wrong. Right now you're just parroting what I've said. I comment that you're acting like a child and now you're calling me a child. You're acting like a sociopath or someone with personality disorder. So once again I'll ask you, state your problem and let's discuss it.



I'm not the one with a problem. Your the one who began his comments in this thread with insults and talk of your all knowing superiority. Next I don't parrot. I mirror. There is a staunch difference. If the reflection you are shown upsets or disturbes you then perchance you should defenestrate something.  

The madman drowns in the same waters the mystic swims in happily.


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> I'm not the one with a problem. Your the one who began his comments in this thread with insults and talk of your all knowing superiority. Next I don't parrot. I mirror. There is a staunch difference. If the reflection you are shown upsets or disturbes you then perchance you should defenestrate something.
> 
> The madman drowns in the same waters the mystic swims in happily.


No, you just can't handle criticism and opinions contrary to your own.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> Well there's a start! I'm of the opinion that you can't self teach a fighting art. That's what the quoted posts reference. I think that's what other posters told you and you replied a little too smug in my opinion. You might be able to self teach other skills but you can't self teach fighting. If you're not worried about gaining fighting ability it doesn't matter, have at it. However, you can't claim to know an art or tell people you know an art when you have no formal training in that art. I've met guys who have claimed exactly this, they claim to have trained "x" art "a little" in some cases if they have some semblance of humility. But if you have no formal training you don't know an art. I find it insulting that a person thinks they can self teach an art or claim to know an art with no formal instruction. However, if you don't currently have access to an instructor but want to begin learning with the intention to eventually find a proper instructir there is hope. That's my stance, if you don't like it I'm sorry. If I stated it too bluntly I'm sorry.



And who asked for your opinion? The only thing I wanted to know was if someone on this site could pin point the liniage of the siu lim tau app I downloaded. Not if I was wasteing my time. And frankly I find it just as insulting haveing you compare form based meditation to dancing. if that is the case your 'art' is little more then the acrobatics.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> No, you just can't handle criticism and opinions contrary to your own.


If that's all you got from this then I have wasted my time.


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> If that's all you got from this then I have wasted my time.


I'd agree, you've definitely wasted a lot of time.


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## Mr.J

Mephisto said:


> I'd agree, you've definitely wasted a lot of time.


Shhhhhhh


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## Mephisto

Mr.J said:


> Shhhhhhh


Here we go again with the childish stuff!


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## Juany118

Mr.J said:


> First of all mook jong and 6.5 have nothing to do with the original form they were added later when wing chun was introduced to the junk boat opera. As for a single video haveing all the information your right but all the videos combined thats a different story.


But all the videos combined use different schools of thought and some of those schools of thought combine to make things that don't necessarily work.  To figure out how to combine them properly u need to know what to look for and that means already having received detailed instructions.  Also this again leaves out the fact that often you can be doing it wrong and not even know it, but a person watching you, who has knowledge, will be able to point out the error.  So even if you had a combanion book that went into all of the minute that the video shows, you could be doing it wrong, getting bad muscle memory, and thus doing bad Martial Arts.

I know in this age of YouTube and Spotify people want everything to be a free lunch but that simply isn't the case.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Mr.J




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## Mr.J

Juany118 said:


> But all the videos combined use different schools of thought and some of those schools of thought combine to make things that don't necessarily work.  To figure out how to combine them properly u need to know what to look for and that means already having received detailed instructions.  Also this again leaves out the fact that often you can be doing it wrong and not even know it, but a person watching you, who has knowledge, will be able to point out the error.  So even if you had a combanion book that went into all of the minute that the video shows, you could be doing it wrong, getting bad muscle memory, and thus doing bad Martial Arts.
> 
> I know in this age of YouTube and Spotify people want everything to be a free lunch but that simply isn't the case.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


Only time will tell. I will be uploading videos would you be willing to point out errors in my form? If not no worries.


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## Juany118

Mr.J said:


> Only time will tell. I will be uploading videos would you be willing to point out errors in my form? If not no worries.


Sure, if the form you are doing is that used in my Lineage.  There are difference, as an example mine doesn't bend the knees in or go pigeon toed.  There are some other differences as well, so I would only be comfy doing it if it was the SLT of my Lineage.



Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Mr.J

Juany118 said:


> Sure, if the form you are doing is that used in my Lineage.  There are difference, as an example mine doesn't bend the knees in or go pigeon toed.  There are some other differences as well, so I would only be comfy doing it if it was the SLT of my Lineage.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


Fair enough. Sadly i work with the pigeon to... Maimly bacuse i walk duck footed and it has the bonus of straughtening my stride.


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## Kickboxer101

I'm going to say what everyone else has. You can't teach yourself martial arts you just can't. Sorry if you don't want to hear that but it's the truth. The people who've told you this are experienced martial artists, maybe you've learnt a couple moves but I guarantee you're making mistakes and you have no one to correct them so you can't get better.


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