# Teacher Problems... Again



## bydand (Oct 15, 2007)

Most of you know that I support teachers in our public schools 99.99% of the time.  Again this year my oldest boys have drawn a couple that I am really having a hard time with (a couple of years ago I was bumping heads with one of their teachers as well, but that is the exception and not generally the norm.)  This year my oldest son (age 9) has a teacher who is just plain crazy and vastly uneducated.  They did a bit on the Great Lakes and my son brought in some photos of the beaches and Lakes of Lake Michigan.  His teacher proceeded to tell the class that the water isn't really that color naturally, and that the States surrounding the Great Lakes all pay into a fund to dye the water so it draws more tourism dollars.  Nick, bless his heart, spoke up and asked if she had ever seen any of the Great Lakes so she would know how large they are and how it would be impossible to actually color the water.  She sent home a note saying he was disruptive and trying to undermine her teaching.  A couple weeks later she made a blanket statement that there are no fish that can breath air and live out of water for even a short period of time.  Again, Nick raised his hand and asked about the African Lung fish, or the Northern Snakehead.  I guess she came unglued on him in class.  This is according to other kids in his class, and not him; he came home and quietly asked if he could get on the computer and check out something.  When I asked what he wanted to look-up he simply said, "Just to see if there really are fish that can breath air."  When pressed a bit further because I could tell something was bothering him, he told me his teacher called him a liar in class and that there were no fish that could  breath air and he just wanted to print out a few pages of information about the African Lung fish, the Northern Snakehead, and the Climbing Perch.  I was amazed he knew what fish he wanted to look up personally.

The #2 son has one not much better, she is obsessed with folders.  Have to have those simple paper folders, even though they don't actually use them :idunno:. So we send in a couple of folders and all is right with the world, if he forgets to have one, or we forget to put one in his backpack, she will send him out of class to go to the office and ask that we bring one to the school for him.  He is 7 by the way

What would you do?  I am really interested in the teachers thoughts and comments.  The oldest is in 4th grade and they only have 2 - 4th grade teachers.  The each take a couple of classes and every student has both teachers.  I am at a loss, any hints or suggestions?  HELP!


----------



## terryl965 (Oct 15, 2007)

Bydand I completely understand, every year we always seem to find this types as well. Hang in there, hopefully it will get better.


----------



## Kacey (Oct 15, 2007)

Here's the sequence for parents who are dissatisfied (and it certainly sounds like you have cause to be dissatisfied):

- Talk to the teacher.  It may not work, but if you call the principal, chances are good that the first question you'll be asked is "have you spoken to the teacher yet?"

- Talk to the principal.  Discuss your concerns quietly, calmly, and without accusation - remember that sometimes the school is at the mercy of whomever is available; we have one of those at my school now - she wasn't an ideal candidate, but the only other teacher available for the position blatantly lied in the interview.  Ask about the teacher's certification and experience - as a parent of a child in the class, you have a right to know if the teacher is new, has a previous history of concerns, is on an emergency certification of some type, etc.

- Talk to the school board.  As with talking to the teacher before you talk to the principal, the first question is likely to be "have you talked to the school about this yet?"  Followed closely by "do you have any documentation?"

While you're following this sequence, continue to document anything that concerns you.  Talk to other parents and see if they have similar concerns; with kids in 4th grade (and younger), I'd be careful about talking to other kids without clearing it with their parents.

If none of the above works, contact your state board of education - not necessarily to complain, but to see if you can find an educational advocate.  This is a person who is trained in education law (often specializing in special education, as the parents of special needs students need advocates more often than most parents) whose job is to advocate for the child - not the parent - sort of like a guardian ad litem, but for education.  Take all of your documentation and concerns to the advocate and discuss your options, which will vary by state, so I can't really help you much.

Also, you say there are only 2 4th grade teachers - I don't know what it's like in your state, but Colorado is a school of choice state - that means that student can attend any school in the state that has room at no additional cost (unless there's an additional cost for all students) BUT the parents have to provide transportation.  I don't know if that's available where you are, or if you're even interested - but your state board of education would be able to tell you, and it's probably posted on their website, along with a list of steps to take should you want to file a complaint or grievance.  Here's a link to the Maine Board of Ed.

I'm sorry you're going through this - and remember, I, as a teacher, would much rather have a parent who is involved - or even overinvolved - in their child's education than a parent who doesn't care, never comes to conferences, and can't be bothered to do anything but buy minimal schools supplies (if that).


----------



## bydand (Oct 15, 2007)

Thanks for the quick replies.  Kacey, thanks for the input, valuable as most of your posts are!  Unfortunately, Maine isn't a school of choice State.  I have talked to the Teacher already, but haven't seen much of an improvement yet.  I'll give it a tiny bit more time before I talk to the Principal.  The kids I talked with are in his Cub Scout den with him and it was during a meeting they brought it up because it happened that morning.  The parents were right there and were shocked.  The 7 year-old just shakes his head when it comes to his teacher.  The only thing that makes it a bit easier is that both of them love their teachers.  Even Nick after she has yelled at him in class a couple of times, thinks she doesn't walk but instead floats on air.


----------



## CoryKS (Oct 15, 2007)

Yes, the Great Lakes _are_ that color of blue.  And while it is true that there are a number of things being dumped into any one of them, none of these additives are making the lake any bluer. 

For Pete's sake, don't let your kids bring pictures of Alaskan water, or she'll burn them at the stake for heresy.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 15, 2007)

How old are American children when they start school? I wondered this as well when I was reading a thread about teaching MA to children. Ours are four and a half when they start primary school where they stay until they are eleven.The standards of teaching here have gone down dramatically  with all sorts of fads for teaching children leaving them badly educated.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 15, 2007)

Hey Scott,

Sorry to hear about the issues with your boy's teachers.  At least they like their teacher's as that is very, very important.  It also sounds like you do not have alot of options in regards to moving your child to another teacher in the same grade.  In Alma we have about six to nine teachers per grade so if a fit is not right a quick move and settle it and away you go.  Thankfully I have always done my homework and never had a problem in choosing the absolute best teachers for my kid's.  Having said that when confronted with an issue I think the best course of action is always personal interaction with the teacher and hopefully that will fix it.  In your situation I would talk with the teacher once a week and also try to come in and sit in on a class and see how things are going.  Many teacher's, like Kacey said do enjoy parents being involved and coming into class and helping out.  Keep hanging in there, be active and hopefully this will improve for your kid's.  Good luck!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 15, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> How old are American children when they start school? I wondered this as well when I was reading a thread about teaching MA to children. Ours are four and a half when they start primary school where they stay until they are eleven.The standards of teaching here have gone down dramatically with all sorts of fads for teaching children leaving them badly educated.


 
Hey Tez, here in the States children regularly start pre school at three or four and then generally being kindergarten at age five. (give or take a few months here and there)


----------



## CoryKS (Oct 15, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> The standards of teaching here have gone down dramatically with all sorts of fads for teaching children leaving them badly educated.


 
You get that here to varying degrees based on region.  My son's school tends for the most part to stick to the tried-and-true methods, but it depends on the age of the teacher.  We have found that the older, veteran teachers apply standards more stringently and avoid faddish strategies.  We're struggling this year because his teacher is quite a bit younger than his previous teachers and seems quite a bit more "ed school".  It's hard to read notes from a teacher chastising the kids' spelling test results when she makes spelling errors on every. single. correspondence.


----------



## kaizasosei (Oct 15, 2007)

it sounds like that teacher is a little immature herself.  i bet all the kids will tune in and completely obliterate her.

j


----------



## Steel Tiger (Oct 15, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> You get that here to varying degrees based on region. My son's school tends for the most part to stick to the tried-and-true methods, but it depends on the age of the teacher. We have found that the older, veteran teachers apply standards more stringently and avoid faddish strategies. We're struggling this year because his teacher is quite a bit younger than his previous teachers and seems quite a bit more "ed school". *It's hard to read notes from a teacher chastising the kids' spelling test results when she makes spelling errors on every. single. correspondence*.


 
Try sending them back corrected and see what happens.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Oct 15, 2007)

Wait until they get into High school. That'll be fun. 5/8 of my Math and Science teachers in High School were inept. 2/4 of my English teachers were inept also. Are there good teachers in high school? Of course! I've simply noticed a trend, and many of my co-students have also. Sadly, even the math and science nerds have noticed that alot of the math and science teachers are idiots... course, this could just be my school.

By the way, DO NOT send a note back if spelling and grammar corrections on it! A teacher complained about spelling on English test, and my mom had me send the note back covered in red ink, I suddenly did alot worse on my English papers...


----------



## Big Don (Oct 15, 2007)

Something about becoming a teacher rattles people. My little sister was normal, until she went to school to become a teacher. Some of the ideas they filled her head with are utter nonsense. For instance:
Nothing is wrong, because to another culture it might be normal.
Nothing, not murder, beastiality, rape, the rape of children, cannabalism, NOTHING. Oh, we went round and round on that a number of times.


----------



## Steel Tiger (Oct 15, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> By the way, DO NOT send a note back if spelling and grammar corrections on it! A teacher complained about spelling on English test, and my mom had me send the note back covered in red ink, I suddenly did alot worse on my English papers...


 
Now see, this grates on me.  What you say is very true, but a teacher has chosen to go into a profession in which we, the community, place a lot of faith.  A part of that faith is that they are capable of doing their job, which would appear, on the surface at least, to be educating our children and preparing them for the world outside the school.  This means that a mathematics teacher shoulder be able to count and an English teacher should be able to spell.  What ever the subject, a teacher should have some knowledge to pass on, or be willing to say, "I don't know, lets find out".

A trend I have noticed here in Australia is a move toward treating schools as daycare centres while pretending they are still teaching institutions.  I often wonder, as Big Don has, what new teachers are being taught about teaching.  It all appears to have become very touchy-feely and less about education than it is about not offending anybody.  

On world ratings (for what they are worth) Australia rates very well, but we still see deficiencies in teaching.  The ACT, where I live, recently asking publically most more male teachers because boys were loosing access to male educational figures.  There appears to be a fundamental fault in the system which we seem unable to see and thus correct.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 15, 2007)

bydand said:


> Most of you know that I support teachers in our public schools 99.99% of the time. Again this year my oldest boys have drawn a couple that I am really having a hard time with (a couple of years ago I was bumping heads with one of their teachers as well, but that is the exception and not generally the norm.) This year my oldest son (age 9) has a teacher who is just plain crazy and vastly uneducated. They did a bit on the Great Lakes and my son brought in some photos of the beaches and Lakes of Lake Michigan. His teacher proceeded to tell the class that the water isn't really that color naturally, and that the States surrounding the Great Lakes all pay into a fund to dye the water so it draws more tourism dollars. Nick, bless his heart, spoke up and asked if she had ever seen any of the Great Lakes so she would know how large they are and how it would be impossible to actually color the water. She sent home a note saying he was disruptive and trying to undermine her teaching. A couple weeks later she made a blanket statement that there are no fish that can breath air and live out of water for even a short period of time. Again, Nick raised his hand and asked about the African Lung fish, or the Northern Snakehead. I guess she came unglued on him in class. This is according to other kids in his class, and not him; he came home and quietly asked if he could get on the computer and check out something. When I asked what he wanted to look-up he simply said, "Just to see if there really are fish that can breath air." When pressed a bit further because I could tell something was bothering him, he told me his teacher called him a liar in class and that there were no fish that could breath air and he just wanted to print out a few pages of information about the African Lung fish, the Northern Snakehead, and the Climbing Perch. I was amazed he knew what fish he wanted to look up personally.
> 
> The #2 son has one not much better, she is obsessed with folders. Have to have those simple paper folders, even though they don't actually use them :idunno:. So we send in a couple of folders and all is right with the world, if he forgets to have one, or we forget to put one in his backpack, she will send him out of class to go to the office and ask that we bring one to the school for him. He is 7 by the way
> 
> What would you do? I am really interested in the teachers thoughts and comments. The oldest is in 4th grade and they only have 2 - 4th grade teachers. The each take a couple of classes and every student has both teachers. I am at a loss, any hints or suggestions? HELP!




The oldest sounds like stuff I went through from K-12 and even in College some times. Sometimes the student is actually more educated and smarter than the instructor. The instructors that fit this category do not like this.  To them it is all about respect and ego and power.  I had to learn that while it is fun sometimes to show you are smart and know other times it is just best to listen and then ask in private. It is the public issue that is the problem here. 

As to the younger one, I would ask the school if all students have to use these folders. And why you were nto told it was a requirement. I understand normal stuff such as pencils and paper for notes. But to prescribe the specific type of filing system is not the norm from my experience with my nieces and nephews and friends kids.  Ask the school if it is a tax deduction or if they are going to reimburse you, as the other classes are not required to have this product. Also ask if your time, will be covered as well.  It is not good to get into a pissing match with the school, but sometimes it has to be done to make a point. 

Now personally I think the folders could have been told that it is a nice way to handle your papers so they do not get damaged. It is a nice way to organize things. But why does the child need so many? Are they being used at school to store and organize his stuff? While they be returned at the end of the year?  I am curious.


Now to the teachers on this site. I know that many take out of their pockets to buy supplies. I know that you spend lots of time working on projects to teach the children. And I am willing to bet that most if not all here also educate the parents on your plans and desires and not belittle the parents. It is not a good idea to get into a pissing match with parents. All it takes is for one parent to paint a bad picture in the press, and the school is scrambling to cover up and look good. Usually the Teacher is not allowed to  reply so they look bad or guilty. I do not agree with this type of blackmail. But come on, to be so obsessive compulsive about something as to be insulting to the child and the parents is an issue in my mind.

Sorry for the rants and off the wall comments.

Good Luck


----------



## Sukerkin (Oct 15, 2007)

I think first I should address *Bydand*'s particular critiques with his kids teachers.  Mate, I don't know what's going on there but you would seem to have genuine concerns about what's being taught.  

I know that these are what we would call in England 'Primary School' teachers and thus not specialists but that should mean that they are more open to discussing ideas their kids bring up not less!  I recall with great fondness my teachers from those years and the inquisitiveness they encouraged.  A question, unless it was ludicrously stupid, was an opportunity to teach, not shut down a particular childs enquiry.  I remember to this day being told what fog is, how eyes work, why birds can fly,  why Pi is 22/7 etc all through childish questions I asked of my teachers during the years of five to eleven.  I recall even more those times when my teacher said "I don't know.  I'll find out for you.".

I'm not standing on an anti-teacher soapbox here tho'.

I guess the over-regulation of targets and mountains of unnecessary paperwork, along with the removal of a teachers powers of discipline have a lot to do with the decline in actual education.  That and the decline in standards insisted upon - "more validation than education" is how I term it.  

One of my sisters was a primary teacher and she quit because the job became all about targets, paperwork and jumping through Education Authority 'hoops' than actually teaching kids anything.  That, combined with the present day atmosphere of how the little 'darlings' should not have to do what they're told if they don't want to, sapped her will to continue a career she'd pursued for much of her life.

It's very hard to conduct a class when you're not permitted to enforce the 'rules' but are penalised if the rules are not enforced.  So I'm not outraged that the genuine enquiries of a young mind are now treated as 'disruptive' and seen as undermining a teachers authority - they now have none and that is simply not right, in my not so humble or unbiased opinion.

The pendulum will swing the other way eventually and we shall see an overtly harsh method of tuition introduced as we try to hammer broader society into some sort of civilised shape.  After all, it's only just over a century since we had the last attempts to do this in response to unruly youth.  They were called 'Industrial Schools' and they worked fine ... but I doubt any child enjoyed going through them.


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 15, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> How old are American children when they start school? I wondered this as well when I was reading a thread about teaching MA to children. Ours are four and a half when they start primary school where they stay until they are eleven.The standards of teaching here have gone down dramatically with all sorts of fads for teaching children leaving them badly educated.


 


Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Tez, here in the States children regularly start pre school at three or four and then generally being kindergarten at age five. (give or take a few months here and there)


 
Generally, kindergarden is about 5, give or take a few months depending on exact birthdates.  Some kids will start just before their 5th birthday, others much closer to their 6th.  Kindergarden formats vary, and used to be largely about getting kids used to going to school, and some basic skills needed.  Elementary schools run to 5th or 6th grade, depending on local custom,or around 11 years old.  Middle school picks 'em up till 9th or 10th grade, and high school ends after 12th grade.  They're usually about 18 when they graduate high school.  Local laws vary, but kids can usually drop out around age 16.  

Of course, public school teachers are so overburdened with silly noneducational stuff, or with cramming kids for various tests, that they have problems actually teaching.  And, of course, since we don't pay public school teachers crap...  lots of them aren't exactly the best.

But -- a teacher full of crap like Bydand describes (dying the Great Lakes?!  Maybe they also think that each day British school kids send chalkboard dust to Dover to line the cliffs...) needs to be dealt with!


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 16, 2007)

Spelling! That was a big bone of contention when my children were at school, the parents were told that spelling wasn't corrected in essays etc as 'it could ruin the flow of the childs writing if it were' and history... that was taught it bits not as a whole and a great deal of it was left out. The kids would do for example Elizabeth the first then the Second World War then Guy Fawkes! These were done as projects, lots of model villages and dressing up but very little substance.

Teaching used to be seen as an honourable profession, a calling or vocation and teachers were respested now it's seen as something you can do when you leave university if you can't find a job anywhere else.This again is the governments fault for interfering in with the syllabuses and making, as Big Don pointed out, things politically correct.

I understand in the UK that many West Indian parents are sending their children back to stay with relatives so that they can attend West Indian schools which have kept the traditional ways of teaching and are proving very successful. private schooling numbers have climbed too with both parents working all hours to be able to afford it.

If my children were school age again I would not send them to school, I'd home school them for sure.I know there are many good teachers out there but I have to feel for them.

Sorry for getting away from the subject! I think Bydand you have hit a nerve with many of us!


----------



## rmclain (Oct 16, 2007)

Does your State have any State certification for educators or mandatory continuing education for public school teachers to keep their certification?  Could help weed out some of the idiot teachers, though some can still slip through the cracks.  I've seen this in Texas.

R. McLain





bydand said:


> Most of you know that I support teachers in our public schools 99.99% of the time. Again this year my oldest boys have drawn a couple that I am really having a hard time with (a couple of years ago I was bumping heads with one of their teachers as well, but that is the exception and not generally the norm.) This year my oldest son (age 9) has a teacher who is just plain crazy and vastly uneducated. They did a bit on the Great Lakes and my son brought in some photos of the beaches and Lakes of Lake Michigan. His teacher proceeded to tell the class that the water isn't really that color naturally, and that the States surrounding the Great Lakes all pay into a fund to dye the water so it draws more tourism dollars. Nick, bless his heart, spoke up and asked if she had ever seen any of the Great Lakes so she would know how large they are and how it would be impossible to actually color the water. She sent home a note saying he was disruptive and trying to undermine her teaching. A couple weeks later she made a blanket statement that there are no fish that can breath air and live out of water for even a short period of time. Again, Nick raised his hand and asked about the African Lung fish, or the Northern Snakehead. I guess she came unglued on him in class. This is according to other kids in his class, and not him; he came home and quietly asked if he could get on the computer and check out something. When I asked what he wanted to look-up he simply said, "Just to see if there really are fish that can breath air." When pressed a bit further because I could tell something was bothering him, he told me his teacher called him a liar in class and that there were no fish that could breath air and he just wanted to print out a few pages of information about the African Lung fish, the Northern Snakehead, and the Climbing Perch. I was amazed he knew what fish he wanted to look up personally.
> 
> The #2 son has one not much better, she is obsessed with folders. Have to have those simple paper folders, even though they don't actually use them :idunno:. So we send in a couple of folders and all is right with the world, if he forgets to have one, or we forget to put one in his backpack, she will send him out of class to go to the office and ask that we bring one to the school for him. He is 7 by the way
> 
> What would you do? I am really interested in the teachers thoughts and comments. The oldest is in 4th grade and they only have 2 - 4th grade teachers. The each take a couple of classes and every student has both teachers. I am at a loss, any hints or suggestions? HELP!


----------



## Ping898 (Oct 18, 2007)

Bydand.....your son ought to print this and sring it into school 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=488193&in_page_id=1770



> The fish that can survive for months in a tree
> 
> It's one of the golden rules of the natural world &#8211; birds live in trees, fish live in water.
> 
> ...


----------



## JWLuiza (Oct 18, 2007)

Bydand,

Your boys sound AMAZING.  He spoke up with what he knew... He got chastised for it, came home and just checked out for himself.  Didn't want to fight, just double checked...

He's a great kid.  Good for you!

It's like when I was in elementary school:

Teacher:  How many states of matter are there?
ME:  At least four.... plasma plus a few others...
Teacher: No, there are THREE.
(Teacher is wrong...))

Thankfully, I had amazing High School and Middle School teachers.  But I'm in one of the richest counties in America (I'm not rich...the county is...).  So my education was of high quality.

I can't add to any suggestions already made, but you can work with your children so they continue to adapt to the situation so well.  There are going to be times in life when your boss or someone in a superior position is wrong, and they will have to learn when to quietly go home and check it out and when to fight for what is the truth.  Seems like you kid's got that down a bit already.

Good luck.


----------



## bydand (Oct 18, 2007)

Ping898 said:


> Bydand.....your son ought to print this and sring it into school
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=488193&in_page_id=1770





Wow, another one for him.  I was amazed he knew of the climbing perch, and the African Lungfish.  The Northern Snakehead I knew he knew about because there was a big scare that they might have found one in Lake Michigan down by Chicago when we lived in West Michigan and he followed that story quite closely.  

I am quite proud of the way he handled himself, he didn't argue with the teacher, but came home to make sure of his facts and then returned to school with proof.  He is a very independent thinker and almost too smart for his age (tough being almost 10, but thinking like an adult on some levels and having the emotions of a 10 year old.)  He does quite well for himself.  There are supposed to be some continuing education requirements, but the State is very lax in what actually counts toward them.  The Northern part of the State where we live doesn't view education as a jewel that is to be sought after, but rather something that you do until you get old enough to work.  It is frustrating to no end as a parent.  I appreciate all the ideas and support given, and will just have to muckle through as best we can this year, until we can return to West Michigan and some truly great schools next Fall.


----------

