# Hyung vs Poomse



## Gemini (Feb 25, 2006)

Just curious.

What is the difference between Hyung and Poomse? Though both Korean arts, TSD uses Hyung to describe a form and TKD uses the term Poomse. Though used in the same context, why would one art use one term while another art uses a second term. Please clarify what I'm missing.

Thanks,


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## terryl965 (Feb 25, 2006)

Gemini I'm shooting from the hip here ok, I believe it is do to the nature the differences of the Art, TSD is more SD orientated and the new TKD is sport base, TSD has more application in there forms while TKD is more simplier do to the fack of the sport aspect.
Just my Opinion here I have no real facts except from converstation I have had.
Terry


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## TigerWoman (Feb 25, 2006)

I wondered that myself.  I saw Upnorth's and he pretty much stays in the same position where poomse, alot of it is in an I formation with variations from the I.  Where is Miles, we need him!  TW


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## Martial Tucker (Feb 25, 2006)

Gemini said:
			
		

> Just curious.
> 
> What is the difference between Hyung and Poomse? Though both Korean arts, TSD uses Hyung to describe a form and TKD uses the term Poomse. Though used in the same context, why would one art use one term while another art uses a second term. Please clarify what I'm missing.
> 
> Thanks,


Good question....It's my understanding that the terms are synonomous, but "poomse" is more commonly used in reference to WTF palgue/taeguk forms, while "hyung" is more commonly used in reference to ITF forms.  

I was once told that there is a slight difference in literal translation of the words, i.e., "hyung" translates literally to "pattern", while "poomse" translates literally to "form". I have never had this verified by anyone, so I wouldn't count on it being correct.

I can't speak for TSD, but maybe Upnorthkyosa or another knowledgeable TSD practitioner will see this and help out with some wisdom.


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## Gemini (Feb 25, 2006)

Hmm. Quit possible. I mean, we interchange the words "pattern" and "form" all the time on this board but still know what each other is talking about. Still, I'd never even heard of "Hyung" before I came here. It just strikes me that it appears to be a strict application by both styles. Like using the other term is something you just don't do.


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## Martial Tucker (Feb 25, 2006)

Gemini said:
			
		

> Hmm. Quit possible. I mean, we interchange the words "pattern" and "form" all the time on this board but still know what each other is talking about. Still, I'd never even heard of "Hyung" before I came here. It just strikes me that it appears to be a strict application by both styles. Like using the other term is something you just don't do.



I just checked the ITF & WTF websites. For whatever reasons, the ITF site uses the word "hyung" almost exclusively, while the WTF site uses "poomse". My guess is that the leaders of each Federation like to promote/use their own generic term to differentiate their forms from the "other" Federation

Sounds like potatos/po-taht-tos to me.....


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## TigerWoman (Feb 25, 2006)

Well, we are WTF, but we use Ke Bon Hyung as the first form or poomse.  

I think Big Nick is also WTF and uses Ke Bon Hyung also.  Maybe just those.  But then we also practice the ITF forms later after 1st dan.  So maybe we are the only ones who use hyung, poomse and form for the same thing.  Makes it real confusing for the newbie. I also noticed that Ke Bon Hyung is pretty stationary, not like the I formation of poomse but more like in the Tang Soo Do hyung that UpNorth was demonstrating. TW


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## Makalakumu (Feb 25, 2006)

While I do not know what the term "poomse" means, I can tell you that hyung is a korean reading for the character that describes kata in Japanese and Xing in Chinese.  Just like Tang Soo Do is pronounced Kara Te Do in Japanese, Hyung, Kata, and Xing all mean the same thing.


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## MSUTKD (Feb 25, 2006)

From a paper I wrote.   ron

&#22411;
_ *X*_í*ng*_  Chinese                       *Kata  *Japanese      *                Hyung*  Korean     _​ 
 In many martial arts there are solo routines that are performed called forms.  Many use the word (*&#22411;*), or _model_.  The character is made up of three radicals: (*&#24181;*), _level shape_, (*&#20992;*), _knife_ or _cutting_, and (*&#22303;*), _earth_.   These combine to mean, _shape that cuts the ground_.  To interpret this, one might imagine a person drawing a plan or model of something on the ground.  Many forms, however, create specific shapes on the ground as they are performed.

&#21697;&#21218;​*P**&#464;**n sh**ì*_  Chinese                  *?  *Japanese           *Poom se*  Korean_
​                In Korean martial arts, specifically Taekwondo,  the modern term for forms is  (*&#21697;&#21218;*).  It is composed of two characters (*&#21697;*) and (*&#21218;*)*.*  The first character (*&#21697;*) contains three occurrences of the  radical (*&#21475;*), _mouth_.  This is interpreted as a collection of objects or _articles_.  The second character (*&#21218;*) is composed of two radicals (*&#22518;*), _mound of earth worked _or_ cultivating_, and (*&#21147;*), _strength_.  The combination is _cultivating strength_.  Together the word means _articles for cultivating strength_.


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## bignick (Feb 25, 2006)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Well, we are WTF, but we use Ke Bon Hyung as the first form or poomse.
> 
> I think Big Nick is also WTF and uses Ke Bon Hyung also.  Maybe just those.  But then we also practice the ITF forms later after 1st dan.  So maybe we are the only ones who use hyung, poomse and form for the same thing.  Makes it real confusing for the newbie. I also noticed that Ke Bon Hyung is pretty stationary, not like the I formation of poomse but more like in the Tang Soo Do hyung that UpNorth was demonstrating. TW



We do use Ki Bon Hyung as our first form for white belts, but it simply means basic form and pretty generic.  Though they have the same name, I think ours must be different because our Ki Bon Hyung has the same "I" formation as the rest of the palgwe forms.


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## TigerWoman (Feb 25, 2006)

Big Nick, you're right Ke Bon Hyung is an I formation too.  I guess I was thinking of the ITF white belt form, Chun gi which at the most goes two steps away from first position.  I don't know how I wrote that. Whoops. TW


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## Miles (Feb 25, 2006)

MSUTKD's paper on Poomsae ( I use the new spelling, Ron uses the more traditional) is available at: http://www.msu.edu/user/taekwon/Class Poomse.pdf

It is very very well-written and is full of insights.  I highly recommend anyone interested in the orthographical study of the Chinese characters to read his work.

Miles


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## rmclain (Feb 27, 2006)

I asked my teacher about this one time (he began his training in 1950 at the Chang Moo Kwan).  He said that that around the time the new KTF forms were created, they started using new terms for techniques, including forms, such as "Proomse" instead of "Hyung."

As a historical note:  The KTF only introduced the Yudansha forms (Koryo, Tae Baek, Jee Tae, etc.) beginning at "special clinics" in December 1967.  It wasn't until 1972 that the Palgue forms were introduced and special clinics were held and the KTF handed out pamphlets describing the forms to clinic participants.  In 1974 the WTF (former KTF), introduced the Tae Guek forms to replace the Palgue forms and they introduced a new version of the form Koryo.

R. McLain


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## Last Fearner (Feb 27, 2006)

Gemini said:
			
		

> What is the difference between Hyung and Poomse?


 
This is a good question, and I hope to verify the answer in the near future. Although I have found it difficult to locate the term "Poomse," or "Poomsae" in my Korean dictionary or online sources, I have pieced together a probable origin.

It is my understanding that the two terms, Hyung and Poomsae, are basically interchangable to mean a form, pattern, shape, diagram, etc. However, It was explained to me many years ago that "hyung" refers to one particular form, whereas "poomsae" (or poomse) refers to a pattern in a series of forms (such as the group of eight palgwe or taegeuk).

Although Hong Hi Choi created the "Chang Hon" system of forms beginning with chon-ji, and these could be viewed as a series of forms, he chose to use the term hyung (not sure if "poomse" was even coined at that time). His forms are more of individual meaning, linked only by the fact they represent a progression through the ranks. Taegeuk are linked one to the next by the series of trigrams from the I-Ching, thus they might be viewed more as a connected series.

The term "hyung" ( &#54805; ) does mean pattern, model, type, or format. The word "poom" ( &#54408; ) can refer to appearance or shape. I have wondered why they recently changed the spelling at the end from "se" ( &#49464; ) to "sae" ( &#49352; ). Since I can not find the Korean word "poom-se" ( &#54408; &#49464; ) in the dictionary, the closest I can guess is the term "sae" comes from similar meanings in other Korean words like "sae gi da" ( &#49352;&#44592;&#45796; ) which means to sculpt, carve, or shape something. "Sae" is used in many Korean words pertaining to shape.

Another possiblity is that "sae," by itself, means "new." So, perhaps "poom-sae" is intended to mean the "new forms?"

I will continue to research this one.

Chief Master Eisenhart


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## MSUTKD (Feb 27, 2006)

Look above please. Both of these terms are from Chinese characters (Hanja). The terms "poomse" or "hyung" are pronunciations of these characters in Korean. The spelling difference comes from a new transliteration. Just like Taekwondo, under these same rules, could be T&#8217;aegwondo. The ITF uses a purley Korean word (&#53952 &#8220;tul&#8221;. It does not have a Hanja equivalent. Without a real understanding of the Hanja you cannot find a good definition. It is interesting that you bring up the idea that &#8220;poomse&#8221; may refer to a series of forms. The word itself means &#8220;articles for cultivating strength&#8221;. Maybe the &#8220;articles&#8221; do refer to a series. That radical can also mean a collection. Cool. Learn something new everyday. I will check my books on the etymology of the word.

ron


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