# Getting On The Mat



## MJS (Feb 19, 2007)

Now, anyone that teaches, obviously gets on the mat to do so.  However, what I'm referring to is mixing it up with not only your students, but others as well.  There are some clips floating around out in cyberspace of a 7th degree Kenpoist mixing it up with some people, who looking at them, appear to be at least half his age.  Sparring, grappling and some good old contact, seem to be shown.  

So my question is this:  Is this something that you do?  Is this something that you feel is important or are you happy to just teach and pass on your knowledge?  

This thread is not intended to bash anyone or put anyone down, regardless of your answer.  I'm just looking to see what everyones thoughts are.  :ultracool 

Mike


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## Seabrook (Feb 19, 2007)

MJS said:


> Now, anyone that teaches, obviously gets on the mat to do so. However, what I'm referring to is mixing it up with not only your students, but others as well. There are some clips floating around out in cyberspace of a 7th degree Kenpoist mixing it up with some people, who looking at them, appear to be at least half his age. Sparring, grappling and some good old contact, seem to be shown.
> 
> So my question is this: Is this something that you do? Is this something that you feel is important or are you happy to just teach and pass on your knowledge?
> 
> ...


 
I fight continuous 2 times per week, and still compete in big tournaments as well. As a 6th degree in American Kenpo, I still put myself on the line time and time again, and regardless of outcome, will continue to do so in the future. Taking a good head or body shot from time to time keeps me humble and makes me realize that I will forever, regardless of rank, be both an instructor and a student.

There are many high-ranking black belts out there whom I have never seen nor heard of ever slap the gear on. They prefer to pulverize their students using choreographed self-defense techniques and to make people fall down with even touching them (LOL) so that students think their instructor is the next Bruce Lee, and a true Jedi Master.  

That is one of the reasons why, like him or hate him, you've got to respect the 7th degree whose clips are floating around. In my opinion, it is people like him who are showing the world just how awesome American Kenpo is and how it can compete with any art out there. Too many MMA fighters think negatively about Kenpo, but haven't witnessed the skills of what someone highly trained in EPAK can do.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
www.jamieseabrook.blogspot.com


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## MJS (Feb 19, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> I fight continuous 2 times per week, and still compete in big tournaments as well. As a 6th degree in American Kenpo, I still put myself on the line time and time again, and regardless of outcome, will continue to do so in the future. Taking a good head or body shot from time to time keeps me humble and makes me realize that I will forever, regardless of rank, be both an instructor and a student.


 
Its been a while since I've fought in a tournament, but I still gear up and spar!  My inst. has us do this in our Kenpo class and my Arnis inst. has up gear up as well, not only empty hand, but we break out the sticks and stick spar.   I've been rocked with some good punches and have had a few welts from the padded sticks, but hey, its the badge of hard work!!:ultracool 



> There are many high-ranking black belts out there whom I have never seen nor heard of ever slap the gear on. They prefer to pulverize their students using choreographed self-defense techniques and to make people fall down with even touching them (LOL) so that students think their instructor is the next Bruce Lee, and a true Jedi Master.


 
Well, this is what I've heard.  This was one of the reasons of starting this thread...to hear how everyone trains. 



> That is one of the reasons why, like him or hate him, you've got to respect the 7th degree whose clips are floating around. In my opinion, it is people like him who are showing the world just how awesome American Kenpo is and how it can compete with any art out there. Too many MMA fighters think negatively about Kenpo, but haven't witnessed the skills of what someone highly trained in EPAK can do.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> ...


 
Amen brother!!  I was speaking to him yesterday and commented on the very same thing.  Amazing the attitude change and respect that was shown.  

Mike


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## Carol (Feb 19, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> I fight continuous 2 times per week, and still compete in big tournaments as well. As a 6th degree in American Kenpo, I still put myself on the line time and time again, and regardless of outcome, will continue to do so in the future. Taking a good head or body shot from time to time keeps me humble and makes me realize that I will forever, regardless of rank, be both an instructor and a student.
> 
> There are many high-ranking black belts out there whom I have never seen nor heard of ever slap the gear on. They prefer to pulverize their students using choreographed self-defense techniques and to make people fall down with even touching them (LOL) so that students think their instructor is the next Bruce Lee, and a true Jedi Master.
> 
> ...



Mr. Seabrook you also have the advantage where you were about 30 years old when you earned your 6th degree.  There is a big difference between a 30 year old 6th fighting young guys a few times a week and (say) a 55 year old 6th fighting young guys a few times a week.

I'm not saying that I disagree with anything that is done...I actually think its great that some of the younger BBs in Kenpo are getting out there and trying to fight in a way that appeals to the kids out there that are more influenced by Mr. Gracie than they are Mr. Miyagi.  And yes, I do respect someone that not only puts on the gear and slaps leather with their students but also isn't afraid to put it on YouTube.


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## MJS (Feb 19, 2007)

I believe the 7th in question, is 45.  Jamie, correct me if I'm wrong on that.   I believe the majority of attendants at this event were in their early to mid 20s.


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## LawDog (Feb 19, 2007)

Once or twice a week I still put on the gear and go a few (non point) continuous type rounds with various Black Belts from my organization. I do not compete in open tournament anymore, at age 58 I am  not quite fast enough for point sparring.
I know of many us older guys that still put on the pads get on the mat like, 
Ken Melbourne(57), Scott Weyant(40), Shawn Gallagher(51), the list from the New England area is very long.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 19, 2007)

Do you guy's have a link to the clips?

Personally I like getting out there and roll, spar with anyone.  It is lot's of fun and yet I can respect other people due to age or what not that prefer not to.

I will give you a for instance of why someone may choose not to.  I had a stint for about six months when I *choose* not to spar with anyone. (a long time ago)  In IRT everything is full contact when sparring and the padding is very minimum. (less padding than a ufc glove)  Over the course of two months when training with some great IRT and Non IRT pracititioners I either broke (several) or watched about 7 noses being broken and a couple of arms being wrenched pretty hard and a couple of bad knee bars. (fortunately no one was seriously hurt 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)  So I stepped back and took a break.  I reevaluated the situation and after talking with all of my seniors we introduced face shields to eliminate this possibility in the future while stand up sparring.  When transitioning to grappling you can keep the head gear on or shuck it off. (your choice)  Sometimes people make choices to spar or not to based on experiences.  Myself *I prefer* to get out there and test what I do and yet I do not test myself against people that are not capable of mixing it up with me.  Just my take.

I would be interested to see some of the links of the Kenpo 7th Dan!


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## LawDog (Feb 19, 2007)

I agree with Mr Vancise in many areas. 
Interesting fact, in todays society most dojo related law suit's are over facial injuries. This came straight from my schools insurance company.


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## Seabrook (Feb 19, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Mr. Seabrook you also have the advantage where you were about 30 years old when you earned your 6th degree. There is a big difference between a 30 year old 6th fighting young guys a few times a week and (say) a 55 year old 6th fighting young guys a few times a week.
> 
> I'm not saying that I disagree with anything that is done...I actually think its great that some of the younger BBs in Kenpo are getting out there and trying to fight in a way that appeals to the kids out there that are more influenced by Mr. Gracie than they are Mr. Miyagi. And yes, I do respect someone that not only puts on the gear and slaps leather with their students but also isn't afraid to put it on YouTube.


 
I concur with what you are saying, but not completely. Age is a factor but it is a lot more of a factor if you make it one. Check out this link of my former Kung Fu instructor, Master Paul Chau. He is a 9th degree black belt and has been training in the martial arts for 47 years. He fights full-contact at least every other day with black belts in their 20s and 30s and has little difficulty wearing them down. 

http://northernblackdragon.com

Here is a youtube link for him if you would like to see how he moves:


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## Seabrook (Feb 19, 2007)

MJS said:


> I believe the 7th in question, is 45. Jamie, correct me if I'm wrong on that.  I believe the majority of attendants at this event were in their early to mid 20s.


 
Well I wasn't at the event, but you are probably correct.

I fought Clyde in the fall of 2005 and we fought continuous for about 30-45 minutes without a break. At the end of the fight, I was the one who stopped - he just kept going.

I did just finish a 10 hr drive to get to the camp, so I was admittedly, exhausted before I even started. But I am not making any excuses, and look forward to the time when him and I can spar again. 

Why turn down an opportunity to fight someone and better your skills in the process? 

As I have said many times, he is a fighting warrior, plain and simple.


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## Seabrook (Feb 19, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would be interested to see some of the links of the Kenpo 7th Dan!


 
Clips really don't speak to how he fights - that is why its hard to get a sense of what is really going on unless you there.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 19, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Clips really don't speak to how he fights - that is why its hard to get a sense of what is really going on unless you there.


 
Clips never tell the total tale! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  However they sometimes help to get a point across.  I have seen Clyde move and he looks like he can take care of himself quite well!


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## Carol (Feb 19, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> I concur with what you are saying, but not completely. Age is a factor but it is a lot more of a factor if you make it one. Check out this link of my former Kung Fu instructor, Master Paul Chau. He is a 9th degree black belt and has been training in the martial arts for 47 years. He fights full-contact at least every other day with black belts in their 20s and 30s and has little difficulty wearing them down.
> 
> http://northernblackdragon.com
> 
> Here is a youtube link for him if you would like to see how he moves:



Cool stuff!  Thanks so much for sharing that!    

I'm not personally suggesting age should be made a factor ...but...aside from the natural aging process, stuff happens as you get older.   Sometimes its a result of lifestyle...my former Kenpo instructor dislocated his arm in a winter sports accident and was hurt so badly the docs thought that he would never regain the use of it.  He regained a lot back but he never got full use back.  Sometimes its just the way life happens.  My school is donating space for a seminar...100% of the procedes are going to a local MAist with MS.   I'd like to think that the MAist will still have something to contribute even if he gets to the point where they can't roll anymore.   But for those that can and do...big props to them.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 21, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Mr. Seabrook you also have the advantage where you were about 30 years old when you earned your 6th degree. There is a big difference between a 30 year old 6th fighting young guys a few times a week and (say) a 55 year old 6th fighting young guys a few times a week.


 
Preach it, Carol! Let's hear it for the old warriors who've seen our battles, and even our wars. 

I respect the guys who still have tendons and ligaments with good elasticity, and enough cartilage that the top half of their legs (bones) don't sit directly on the bottom half. But it's been awhile since I was one. And I sure ain't gonna be one again. That's OK with me as long as I don't get criticized for living a long time and having some mileage on the old Bod (the odometer has turned over more than once  ). Now if it comes to the real deal, the 15-30 second street survival situation, then I'm down for what has to be done. But as a regular sporting activity...:shock: 

So, thanks Carol. And peace to all aging warriors and all who respect us.


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## KenpoGunz (Feb 21, 2007)

> So my question is this: Is this something that you do? Is this something that you feel is important or are you happy to just teach and pass on your knowledge?


 
Yes it is something that I do. I feel it is important. I am also happy to teach and pass on my knowledge.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 21, 2007)

MJS said:


> Now, anyone that teaches, obviously gets on the mat to do so. However, what I'm referring to is mixing it up with not only your students, but others as well. There are some clips floating around out in cyberspace of a 7th degree Kenpoist mixing it up with some people, who looking at them, appear to be at least half his age. Sparring, grappling and some good old contact, seem to be shown.
> 
> So my question is this: Is this something that you do? Is this something that you feel is important or are you happy to just teach and pass on your knowledge?
> 
> ...


 
I'm still on the mend from a car wreck in Sept. 06, and have to take it super-easy. Prior to the wreck, I did my front shrugs with 3 plates on each side of a Smith machine; now, with nerve damage to my neck, I do them in rehab with 4 lb. aerobic dumbells. Pretty demeaning when I compare myslef now to where I was. 

Before that, I still avoided sparring hard-core. Only in my early 40's, I'm already courting a high-mileage string of injuries. I played hard when I was younger, and now wear the effects of that in my bones. I will (after rehab and mending) get on the mat to roll. I will do heavy-bag work, drills, light sparring. I'll even do continuous with light head contact, heavy body contact, competitive throwing, all the way through submission. But my days of having something to prove to anybody about anything are done; I've had my wins, losses, and more MMA-type mixers and challenge matches in boxing gyms and parking lots than I care to count. Not to mention the many, many altercations I got into while bouncing my way through college (and since, due to some anger management concerns).

I'll roll to keep limber and in better shape, but it'll be in what they used to call "play ball" mode, where you wrassle up to a submission, then release into continuous grappling; this saves the injuries that come from strong-arming out of locks and chokes, while allowing you to work position, perception, technique and timing. Stand-up...I'm not down with getting my melon rocked anymore. My guys and I used to go at it hard enough, we'd bust up each others noses, teeth and jaws, and give each other whiplash with hard-assed head shots several times a night, several nights a week. We've all had our septoplasty's and rhinoplasty's, have careers in the public, and bills to pay; the discs in my neck have finally caught up with the crapped out discs in my back, and my cervical x-rays look like they belong to a man in his 70's to 80's..arthritis from repeated training and work traumas. 

I feel an obligation to myself to keep flexible enough and strong enough to take care of business when business needs to be taken care of. I'm at my weakest now...skinny little arms, no meat on my legs, chest sunken like a skinny teen...and I know I won't be happy until I've gotten some beef back on ze bones, and some snap back in ze blows. I also feel an obligation to future students to be active enough to get on the mat with them, and experientially ensure they have it right...and the only way to do that is to train with them, in contact. 

However, it has become necessary at this point in my life to temper machismo with discretion; my measure of masculinity has switched from being able to exchange poundings with my sparring partners, to being able to make enough money to get out of debt, help take care of my parents when that day comes, and plan for retirement.

My input, for what it's worth.

Best Regards,

Dr. Dave


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Feb 21, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> I concur with what you are saying, but not completely. Age is a factor but it is a lot more of a factor if you make it one. Check out this link of my former Kung Fu instructor, Master Paul Chau. He is a 9th degree black belt and has been training in the martial arts for 47 years. He fights full-contact at least every other day with black belts in their 20s and 30s and has little difficulty wearing them down.
> 
> http://northernblackdragon.com
> 
> Here is a youtube link for him if you would like to see how he moves:


 
Hey Jamie did this same Master grapple? I think I remember seeing a youtube clip of him rolling with various people and submitting them all.

Nevermind In the middle of typing this I found it.













 
Awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=pcbd


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## kidswarrior (Feb 21, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> I'm not personally suggesting age should be made a factor ...but...aside from the natural aging process, stuff happens as you get older. Sometimes its a result of lifestyle.... Sometimes its just the way life happens.... I'd like to think that the MAist will still have something to contribute even if he gets to the point where they can't roll anymore. But for those that can and do...big props to them.


 
Here, here. I'm younger (slightly) than the _oldest_ active regular fighters mentioned in this thread. Yet, I don't fight regularly. Without comparing all the different events of my life with theirs, it's hard to say what kind of toll those years and decades might have taken on each individual, or whether the toll is comparable. 

I'm happy to have what I do, and understand some of why I don't have other things. That's life. But to compare people in sweeping generalities--like one 55 year old with another--is counterproductive for me. So I'm with Carol. Age may not be a factor at all in determining how long one can mix it up on the mat. Kudos to those who have been blessed with longevity in their active practices. For others, life may have forced us to pace ourselves.

And by the way, in my work I have to be ready to fight at any time--no mats, no tapping out, lots of hard objects like chairs and tables, or streets and alleys, to fall into, or worry about one's opponent hitting their head on, makeshift weapons popping out of nowhere. So another aspect to this whole discussion is, for me fighting stopped being a sport a while back. Don't have any energy or desire left to pursue it in my off time. But that's just me.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 21, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I'm still on the mend from a car wreck in Sept. 06, and have to take it super-easy. Prior to the wreck, I did my front shrugs with 3 plates on each side of a Smith machine; now, with nerve damage to my neck, I do them in rehab with 4 lb. aerobic dumbells. Pretty demeaning when I compare myslef now to where I was.
> 
> Before that, I still avoided sparring hard-core. Only in my early 40's, I'm already courting a high-mileage string of injuries. I played hard when I was younger, and now wear the effects of that in my bones. I will (after rehab and mending) get on the mat to roll. I will do heavy-bag work, drills, light sparring. I'll even do continuous with light head contact, heavy body contact, competitive throwing, all the way through submission. But my days of having something to prove to anybody about anything are done; I've had my wins, losses, and more MMA-type mixers and challenge matches in boxing gyms and parking lots than I care to count. Not to mention the many, many altercations I got into while bouncing my way through college (and since, due to some anger management concerns).
> 
> ...


 
Hey Dr. Dave, I hear you Bro'. Heal up and know you're not alone. BTW, Dr. Yang's book on Chinese and western arthritis relief (simple exercises, really) has helped me immensely. Really takes the pain away. Let me know if you're interested and want to locate it.


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## LawDog (Feb 21, 2007)

In a previous post I listed some of the older guys who still put on the pads and step onto the mat. I am going to correct a mistake that I made, I left out a very dedicated group of martial artists, The Ladies.
These Ladies still put on their pads and get on the mat for non point continuous sparring. Here are a few,
Linda Kravitz(57), Peg Mullen(63), Jan Cunningham(54), Deb D'Antuno(49), Darleen Weyant(very classified), Carol Pilkington(44) etc. The list of woman from the North East is very long. 
Please note that this group fights co-ed, they stand right across from us guys. The women are just as tough as the guys. Hats off to them.:ultracool


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## Carol (Feb 21, 2007)

LawDog said:


> In a previous post I listed some of the older guys who still put on the pads and step onto the mat. I am going to correct a mistake that I made, I left out a very dedicated group of martial artists, The Ladies.
> These Ladies still put on their pads and get on the mat for non point continuous sparring. Here are a few,
> Linda Kravitz(57), Peg Mullen(63), Jan Cunningham(54), Deb D'Antuno(49), Darleen Weyant(very classified), Carol Pilkington(44) etc. The list of woman from the North East is very long.
> Please note that this group fights co-ed, they stand right across from us guys. The women are just as tough as the guys. Hats off to them.:ultracool




Sweet!!!!  Now THAT is inspiring.


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## KenpoGunz (Feb 22, 2007)

Tonight was sparring night, so I figure I'll share. It starts off light contact and than the group starts to divide up based on the level of contact desired. Generally the higher your rank the harder the contact. Actually I dont think it's possible to get a black belt from my instructor without going full contact atleast a few times. Anyway

We all stand around the sparring ring and give encouragement and advice to both fighters. Rounds can vary from 2 to 5 min depending on a lot of things. Only one sparring session at a time. Protection consists of a mouth piece, gloves, and a cup. I also wear shin and instep pads becasue I like to kick to the legs, but realize both myself and my sparring buddy need to walk the next day.

Rules can vary depending on who is fighting, but for the most part its, no groin shots, nothing to the back of the neck or spine, no dirty tactics, and we generally try to throw knees and elbows at light to medium contact if there is no knee or elbow pads being used. Even with pads knees/elbows tend to be kept in the medium level of contact. Jabs, straight punches, hooks, upper cuts etc... and most kicks can be used full contact in continuous sparring. 

Tonight I had two full contact 3 minute rounds and one medium contact 2 minute round. 

I leanred a cool way to counter knees in the clinch by performing a slight stance change and kicking behind the knee of the supporting leg, which becomes a takedown as the oppontents base is disrupted. He told me the name of the Kenpo technqiue the principle comes from. I just cant remember it now. 

Next sparring class we will be working on striking from the clinch and safely exiting the clinch.


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## Doc (Feb 22, 2007)

I've done my share of "sparring" and trained some of the best out there and locked horns with them on a daily basis. But age is not the only factor that makes you temper this type of training. Much of it is counterproductive and teaches bad "street" habits, according to Ed Parker who himslef stopped doing it. Even though he was a great grappler and sparred in his younger days, he took a different approach under the Chinese to not develop habits he wouldn't use it reality. Add to that, the fact that many of us oldsters cannot afford to be injured because we have jobs, that don't allow for walking wounded. To the  question "Do I still mix it up?" Yes. Everyday with people who do not fight for points or submissions. Knives, guns, sticks, and pipes, Life or death. Its called  public law enforcement. So far, I'm still winning. (But I cheat a lot)


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 22, 2007)

Doc said:


> I've done my share of "sparring" and trained some of the best out there and locked horns with them on a daily basis. But age is not the only factor that makes you temper this type of training. Much of it is counterproductive and teaches bad "street" habits, according to Ed Parker who himslef stopped doing it. Even though he was a great grappler and sparred in his younger days, he took a different approach under the Chinese to not develop habits he wouldn't use it reality. Add to that, the fact that many of us oldsters cannot afford to be injured because we have jobs, that don't allow for walking wounded. To the question "Do I still mix it up?" Yes. Everyday with people who do not fight for points or submissions. Knives, guns, sticks, and pipes, Life or death. Its called public law enforcement. So far, I'm still winning. (But I cheat a lot)


 
Good for you Doc!


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## LawDog (Feb 22, 2007)

Doc,
In your post you mentioned "Law Enforcement" I to am in this field and still prefer to work the streets. I teach defensive tactics to law enforcement agencies here in New England and over in Europe. One of the most requested areas of instruction is on how both the bad guys and law enforcement read into both body and verbal language. 
The one thing that has always held true, a person who is confident in his true fighting skills gives of an entirely different body and verbal language. An active fighter tends to walk erect, shows passive confidence, uses little or no large body motion etc. When they talk they show no emotion in their voice, they are focused on the situation at hand but are still aware or their surroundings etc.
The reason that I have mentioned this, on my department and on a few surrounding departments there are a few of the older officers that still mix it up. When these officers walk into a situation, everyone takes notice of their presence. People act very different when these officers approach them. In law enforcement this is known as "Command Presence". With this type of presence there is usually no physical confrontation.
On the other hand those in law enforcement who are out of shape, have very little or no real fighting skills give off a different type of body language. While walking or just standing there is no sign of internal confidence, they are distracted easily, they tend to hollar/ scream and usually make numerious large body movements. After arriving at a situation things tend to get out of hand quickly.
Older people are othen victums of very violent crime. The "bad guys" tend to target those who they feel will not attempt to defend themselves. Older people should do what they can as long as they can. One should never give off the body language that says, I can't.
Doc, just curious, what agency are you a member of?


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## Seabrook (Feb 22, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Hey Jamie did this same Master grapple? I think I remember seeing a youtube clip of him rolling with various people and submitting them all.
> 
> Nevermind In the middle of typing this I found it.
> 
> ...


 
He is very talented and works extremely hard at his martial arts. You won't find any kids with black belts on at his school, that is for sure.


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## Seabrook (Feb 22, 2007)

Doc,

What is your take on this site and youtube clip below. As mentioned before, he is a 9th degree black belt in Kung Fu and is in his high 50s. 

http://northernblackdragon.com

Here is a youtube link for him if you would like to see how he moves:





 

Thanks,

Jamie Seabrook


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## KenpoGunz (Feb 22, 2007)

Very interesting.

If anyone is interested in Mr. Parker's thoughts on the various forms of freestyle (sparring) please see the following.

Infinite Insights into Kenpo vol I chapter 3 pages. 49-53
Infinite Insights into Kenpo vol V chapter 9 pages. 191-192 5th and 6th paragraphs.

If you dont have the books. Mr. Parker's baisc idea is that sparring is very important as it begins to border on reality. It can be infered that he feels full contact/knock-out competitions offer the most realistic value, but to remember the lessons taught in the self-defense techniques as the threats encountered and the stratagies and weapons used can differ in a self defense situation.

If you dont have the Infinite Insights Into Kenpo book series I would highly recommend you get them. They clear up a lot about how training should be conducted regarding the 3 divisions of American Kenpo [Basics, Self-Defense, Freestyle(sparring)] and Mr. Parker's positive attitude regarding usefull cross-training.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 23, 2007)

Doc said:


> I've done my share of "sparring" and trained some of the best out there and locked horns with them on a daily basis. But age is not the only factor that makes you temper this type of training. Much of it is counterproductive and teaches bad "street" habits, according to Ed Parker who himslef stopped doing it. Even though he was a great grappler and sparred in his younger days, he took a different approach under the Chinese to not develop habits he wouldn't use it reality.


 
I've had this complaint for a long time, now. In my early days of training, we'd learn moves for self defense which included a lot of what would be called 'cheating' in s sporting situation, and then at the end of a test or class, strap on gear and have to play by a whole different set of rules--_all the things we'd just learned were now off-limits!_ That, as Doc said, is flat out counterproductive, if not just plain contradictory.



> _Add to that, the fact that many of us oldsters cannot afford to be injured because we have jobs, that don't allow for walking wounded_.


 
And it takes us three times longer to heal when we do get injured. This is why animals in the wild don't fight for fun--only to eat or protect themselves or their group. An injury can be life threatening because if wounded, they may not be able to hunt, keep up with the rest of the pack, etc. (and will likely starve).



> _To the question "Do I still mix it up?" Yes. Everyday with people who do not fight for points or submissions. Knives, guns, sticks, and pipes, Life or death. Its called public law enforcement. So far, I'm still winning. (But I cheat a lot_)


 
Yes, this is the real 'mixing it up'. The idea is to win your safety, contain and control a situation before it blows up; no one awards points, but it's certainly as real as it gets. 'Cheating' is a given. My work with often-violent adolescents (and anyone from outside who may show up and have a beef with them) may call for a physical response on any day. Have had to walk into the mix on many occasions. Fortunately, I'm still winning, too.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 23, 2007)

LawDog said:


> The one thing that has always held true, a person who is confident in his true fighting skills gives of an entirely different body and verbal language. An active fighter tends to walk erect, shows passive confidence, uses little or no large body motion etc. When they talk they show no emotion in their voice, they are focused on the situation at hand but are still aware or their surroundings etc.
> The reason that I have mentioned this, on my department and on a few surrounding departments there are a few of the older officers that still mix it up. When these officers walk into a situation, everyone takes notice of their presence. People act very different when these officers approach them. In law enforcement this is known as "Command Presence". With this type of presence there is usually no physical confrontation.


 
I agree that the command presence can be the difference between whether and what degree of violence the 'bad guys' may try. But I think it can come not just by continuing to 'mix it up' in a controlled situation, but also by continuing to mix it up in uncontrolled situations, especially for those who have put in the sparring time for years already. In other words, being an 'active fighter' can come from more than one venue (not just competition).



> On the other hand those in law enforcement who are out of shape, have very little or no real fighting skills give off a different type of body language. While walking or just standing there is no sign of internal confidence, they are distracted easily, they tend to hollar/ scream and usually make numerious large body movements. After arriving at a situation things tend to get out of hand quickly.
> Older people are othen victums of very violent crime. The "bad guys" tend to target those who they feel will not attempt to defend themselves. Older people should do what they can as long as they can. One should never give off the body language that says, I can't.


 
But again, IMHO I don't believe we either get this conditioning and confident body language from sparring or not at all. I think for some of us, we've already done a lot of sparring and now due to 'life happening' have carried that confidence--hopefully command presence--into daily lives and work. Anyway, that's worked for me, and I guess my experience is the only thing I'm really an expert on.


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## John Bishop (Feb 23, 2007)

A good example of still being able to get on the mat:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070223/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/costa_rica_tourist_mugging


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## LawDog (Feb 23, 2007)

Mr Bishop,
Everyone should give courtesy bow to that person.  :mst:


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## Tames D (Feb 24, 2007)

Seabrook said:


> Doc,
> 
> What is your take on this site and youtube clip below. As mentioned before, he is a 9th degree black belt in Kung Fu and is in his high 50s.
> 
> ...


This man is very impressive Jaime. Why don't you train with him anymore?


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## Seabrook (Feb 26, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> This man is very impressive Jaime. Why don't you train with him anymore?


 
I obtained my black sash from him, and I love Kung Fu, but I want to always keep my base art as American Kenpo Karate. 

There is another reason as well, but I would rather not share that info.


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