# Martial art A vs. Martial Art B... here we go again...and again... and again...



## Xue Sheng (Aug 10, 2010)

Likely this post won't end well...but here goes

Why do we care, beyond the academic or training opportunity about another style of martial arts

I have been reading these types of posts (Ma A vs. Ma B) on MT for awhile now and the majority seem to come down to one thing in my opinion&#8230; fear. There have been a few that where actually legitimate comparisons looking for information but most come out of fear.

Are we as martial artists so threatened by another art that we have to look for ways that range from the silly to the insulting to run another art down to make ourselves feel superior.

It is a very old argument by the way, I am sure it went on way back when Shuaijiao was new or possibly even as far back as Pankration but it did go on in China a while back between Internal Martial Arts and External Martial arts (the categories themselves are a bit off the mark) 

A hundred years ago or so in China the argument started that Internal Martial Arts was by far superior to External Martial Arts. Much of this argument came from the fact that some, (louder and/or more literate) IMA people of lesser skill decided to say that IMA was superior to EMA to not get beat up. You see if IMA was superior in skill and philosophy to EMA then they did not want to have to fight to prove it because they did not want to hurt the poor EMA guy and philosophically speaking they were above such baser things&#8230; unlike the lowly EMA guy. Thereby they avoided getting their butts kicked, saved face, looked superior and looked tough all at the same time. 

But the topic of choice these days appears to be &#8220;MMA vs. Anything&#8221; or the reverse &#8220;Anything vs. MMA&#8221;. 

As I said, in my opinion, this all has its root in fear. Are we as martial artists, whether we train TMA, MMA or RSBD so afraid of an acronym, do we feel so threatened by another art that we need to come up with ways to make ourselves feel superior belittling another art. 

Please can we stop doing these comparisons that range from the silly to the insulting in order to make ourselves look and feel superior to others because in reality we feel threatened by that other style. Learn about the other style from reputable sources and you will feel less threatened by it&#8230;or&#8230;maybe&#8230;just maybe&#8230; you will get better ideas as to how to train or get the drive to train harder in your chosen style.

Now can we all just shut up and train... believe me, train properly and you will feel less threatened


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## terryl965 (Aug 10, 2010)

Xue I do not believe it is fear but rather what I call be westrnized to the max. We must always be better and if not we will argue and change thing until we are. Americans for the most part walk around with a chip on thier shoulders becaus ethey have no other way to express themself because our society dictates that if we show weakness than we are, if we so remorse than they are stronger. Hell look we change football to American football because we could not keep up. Look in Basketball we are seeing more in more over sea's players being drafted. 

I believe the old saying goes no art is perfect no human is perfect but we can all train and be perfect for that one moment if need be. So in the nd just keep working on being perfect for that single moment when you may need to be.


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## MJS (Aug 10, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Likely this post won't end well...but here goes
> 
> Why do we care, beyond the academic or training opportunity about another style of martial arts
> 
> ...


 
Well, you're probably right, this won't end well, but who knows...stranger things have happened. LOL.  Ok, here goes.....

When I started training, I really wasn't too concerned with the "A vs B" debates, partly because I as a newbie.  Fast forward to 1993, and I, much like everyone else in the MA world, saw this grappling stuff, and I was impressed.  Then I started researching more into my art, other arts, etc.  I made some changes to my own trainng, took on a few more arts.  

People will find pleasure in bashing other arts because they dont match up to what they do.  "Your art doesnt have xyz, but mine does, so you suck!" is what we hear.  

Personally, I'm not, nor will I ever be or want to be, for that matter, the Kenpo, Arnis or BJJ Police.  I really dont care how anyone else trains.  All I do is offer some suggestions.  Take 'em or leave 'em, either way its not gonna effect me 1 bit.   If someone wants to crack on my arts, go ahead.  If I can show someone something or make them understand something better, great.  If not, thats fine too.   Like I said, sometimes, no matter what ya say to someone, they'll be so set in their ways, they'll never change.  

Anyways...enough ranting for now.   How does that saying go again...."Shut Up And Train!!!"


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## Flying Crane (Aug 10, 2010)

I don't have any fear, of any thing or anybody.  I'm number two in Xue-fu.  What would I have to fear?  (except Number One in Xue-fu [bowing and scraping])


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 10, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't have any fear, of any thing or anybody. I'm number two in Xue-fu. What would I have to fear? (except Number One in Xue-fu [bowing and scraping])


 
As it should be :mst: :uhyeah:


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## CoryKS (Aug 10, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Why do we care, beyond the academic or training opportunity about another style of martial arts


 
Because my art is teh d34dly and we won't have balance in the internets unless you all acknowledge it.


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## Steve (Aug 10, 2010)

Interesting post.  I'd say it's less about fear and, in spite of what many would like to believe about Americans, I don't think it's about arrogance, either.

I alluded to this in the other thread, but I believe that it's really simply about insecurity and a genuine belief that what we happen to be doing at the moment is the awesomest thing ever.  It's enthusiasm, expressed immaturely, and I can't really fault people for that.

Add a touch of egocentrism, in that we all tend to believe that what we're experiencing is unique and interesting (because of course, no one has ever gone through what we're going through before.) 

Honestly, I don't think it's all that insidious and can't bring myself to get to upset with people who try to build up their own activities at the expense of others.  It's maybe not the best way to go about things, but it's perfectly understandable.


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## WC_lun (Aug 10, 2010)

Its just human nature.  Everyone wants to believe that what they do is they best and by extension they are better than everyone else.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 10, 2010)

As far as MA is concerned I go back ways, not as far as some on MT, but back to just before Enter the Dragon came out and there has always been a my style is better that your style kind of thing going on. But it just was not as silly or as vicious or as unfounded as some of these posts I see here (and elsewhere) from time to time.

Heck back in my Jujutsu days I had a friend that was Goju and we got into the "your arts sucks" stuff but it was all cool. We even occasionally spared and it was a blast. Of course the trash talk continued but that was part of the fun. Fast forward many (many) years and I was in a multiple style sparing group and that was freakin awesome. I only wish there were MMA people around then to join. But we still got into the my style is better than your style stuff. But there is a world of difference between standing there giving each other a hard time face to face than some of the stuff I read on the web. In the case of the group, no one got angry, we all spared and we all had a great time.

However some of what I read here from time to time is not trash talk it is elitism or idiocy, or just plain downright bigotry against another style which is generally based in lack of knowledge or insecurity (thanks stevebjj). And it is that stuff I am talking about that is coming out of fear or just a general lack of knowledge coupled with a lack of desire to learn which again could be fear. 

Here is an old post of mine that basically covers what it was like way back with dinosaurs walked the earth we rode mammoths to class back then you know  And it gives some of what I am talking about as it applies to these my style vs your style things as it applies to the Wild and Whacky world of the Web... or it could be I'm just old... who knows

But to take my own advice, if all goes well, and I dont injure myself again  , I am soon to shut up and train big time so




stevebjj said:


> Interesting post. I'd say it's less about fear and, in spite of what many would like to believe about Americans, I don't think it's about arrogance, either.
> 
> I alluded to this in the other thread, but I believe that it's really simply about insecurity and a genuine belief that what we happen to be doing at the moment is the awesomest thing ever. It's enthusiasm, expressed immaturely, and I can't really fault people for that.
> 
> ...


 

Agreed

And for the record, I dont think it is insidious or evil or for that matter all that much of a concern. I am just getting tired of it again


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## Flying Crane (Aug 10, 2010)

A whole lot of people on the internet say a whole lot of stupid things, and I'm here to set them straight.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 10, 2010)

Our styles differ!  We must fight!

Besides, everyone knows that Sinanju is best.  They're all just pale imitations.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 10, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Our styles differ! We must fight!
> 
> Besides, everyone knows that Sinanju is best. They're all just pale imitations.


 
Enough talk... lets fight







I told you, you were all warned anytime, anyplace anywhere if I am given the chance I WILL use a Kung fu panda reference 
http://kungfupandafans.webs.com/kfp02.jpg


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## Hand Sword (Aug 10, 2010)

An easy solution is to just not reply to those threads and let the thread die. If it's a personal issue, pm's are a good solution. That way, no clogs in the system and threads "worthy" of discussion will get their due attention.

:asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 10, 2010)

Hand Sword said:


> An easy solution is to just not reply to those threads and let the thread die. If it's a personal issue, pm's are a good solution. That way, no clogs in the system and threads "worthy" of discussion will get their due attention.
> 
> :asian:


 

But then we get into who judges a thread "Worthy"

If we go by my standard of what is worthy for MT there would be no study what-so-ever. But then a lot of people on MT  likely think me not worthy to post at all so who decides. 

There can be a discussion that comes out of any of these posts that is of interest, your current post on the topic seems to be going a good route at the moment, but I take full credit for that based on my awesomeness and attractiveness 


It is just that in some cases, and happily not as many as there use to be, they get plain sill and downright insulting and I will admit I thought your post on the topic had great potential for going that way. And I will admit your initial post had something to do with this one but I am not advocating shutting it down, Locking it, or adding people to ignore lists. 

At this point it could end up a good discussion.

But then, like I said, it could be that I am just too old.


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## clfsean (Aug 10, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> As it should be :mst: :uhyeah:




Mun lao yan...hehehehe


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 10, 2010)

Hand Sword said:


> An easy solution is to just not reply to those threads and let the thread die. If it's a personal issue, pm's are a good solution. That way, no clogs in the system and threads "worthy" of discussion will get their due attention.
> 
> :asian:



Way too sensible to work.  I take offense at your reasonableness.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 10, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Way too sensible to work. I take offense at your reasonableness.


 
I'm not surprised.  But that's what I'd expect from someone who trains a crappy style...


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 10, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> I'm not surprised. But that's what I'd expect from someone who trains a crappy style...


 
True, but then, by comparison no style is worthy compared to Xuefu :mst:


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 10, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> True, but then, by comparison no style is worthy compared to Xuefu :mst:



Ha!  Xeufu-ists couldn't kick their way out of a paper bag!  A *pink* one!


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 10, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Our styles differ! We must fight!
> 
> Besides, everyone knows that Sinanju is best. They're all just pale imitations.


Thats what I'm talking about! You are all a Bunch of Pajama Dancers! LOL
Sean


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 10, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Ha! Xeufu-ists couldn't kick their way out of a paper bag! A *pink* one!


 
We forgive you for you know not what you say....


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## Steve (Aug 10, 2010)

If you would each kindly get in my guard, one at a time, I will choke and/or armbar you all in turn.  Then you'll all see how powerfull BJJ is.


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## Omar B (Aug 10, 2010)

Once you all realize that I have the greatest master ever Gouken and trained with the 2 best training partners every in Ryu Hoshi and Ken Masters you will all realize how futile your styles are when compared to mine.  I'm throwing down moves like G&#333; Had&#333;ken, Senk&#363; G&#333;sh&#333;ha, Tatsumaki G&#333; Rasen, K&#363;ch&#363; Tatsumaki Senp&#363; Kyaku, Kinjite Sh&#333;ry&#363;ken.  Yes, don't even try, just admit defeat now.


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## Athelus (Aug 10, 2010)

There is only one solutions to this......

Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock


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## Carol (Aug 10, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Ha!  Xeufu-ists couldn't kick their way out of a paper bag!  A *pink* one!



*fire in eyes*

So you think pink is a sign of weakness, do you boy?? 

*hissssssss*

I shall turn you in to a maglite!   You will fall into a delusion of indestructability....until...you meet the hands of doom!!

Bwaaaahaaaahaaaaaahaaaaa!!!


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## Andy Moynihan (Aug 10, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Once you all realize that I have the greatest master ever Gouken and trained with the 2 best training partners every in Ryu Hoshi and Ken Masters you will all realize how futile your styles are when compared to mine. I'm throwing down moves like G&#333; Had&#333;ken, Senk&#363; G&#333;sh&#333;ha, Tatsumaki G&#333; Rasen, K&#363;ch&#363; Tatsumaki Senp&#363; Kyaku, Kinjite Sh&#333;ry&#363;ken. Yes, don't even try, just admit defeat now.


 

PAH! I bet Gouken didn't even teach you the Shungokusatsu. Without training under Akuma you will never open your eyes to the Satsui no Hadou!


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## Omar B (Aug 10, 2010)

Akuma is Gouken's student, that makes him just some weirdo in an ugly gi.  Not like mine, all freshly washed and ironed ... because that instantly ups your level of bad-***.


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## Athelus (Aug 10, 2010)

but does the red headband Ryu so fond of really help?


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## Omar B (Aug 10, 2010)

Nah, it just helps enhance his gorgeous.


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## Athelus (Aug 10, 2010)

Must confess he does look rather dapper in it, like the James Bond of the Video Game World


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## Omar B (Aug 10, 2010)

Isn't James Bond the James Bond of the video game world?  He's had quite a few games to day the least.  http://commanderbond.net/category/games


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## Athelus (Aug 10, 2010)

Nah as a game Character Bond sucked. Bond was only awesome as a film character. So i stand by my previous comment.


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## Omar B (Aug 10, 2010)

Athelus said:


> Nah as a game Character Bond sucked. Bond was only awesome as a film character. So i stand by my previous comment.



And I can't stand the Bond movies, for me he's a literary character.


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## Andy Moynihan (Aug 10, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Akuma is Gouken's student, that makes him just some weirdo in an ugly gi. Not like mine, all freshly washed and ironed ... because that instantly ups your level of bad-***.


 
Close-- Akuma is Gouken's *brother* Their Sensei was Goutetsu. Akuma ended up murdering them both with the Shungokusatsu. That's why Ryu/Ken hate him/are after him.


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## Omar B (Aug 10, 2010)

Dammit Andy, I was stretching my very little knowledge of video games as it was.  I was a Lit major dammit, I've not played a video game since NES.


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## Athelus (Aug 10, 2010)

but Akuma didn't appear till AFTER Street fighter 2 and i think first game with Akuma was on Playstation so how did your knowledge extend that far? Thats at least 2 gens of console gaming 3 if you include the Jaguar.


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## Omar B (Aug 10, 2010)

Friends who are gamers, the animated movies, watching Tech TV/G4, there are lots of ways to learn about things without experiencing them first hand.  Like this forum for example, we all share information with each other.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 11, 2010)

ENOUGH!!!!!

*KA-MEHA-MEHA*


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## Omar B (Aug 11, 2010)

Oh yeah!?


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## Balrog (Aug 12, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Likely this post won't end well...but here goes
> 
> Why do we care, beyond the academic or training opportunity about another style of martial arts?


As I have said before:  it ain't the martial art, it's the martial artist.


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## Omar B (Aug 12, 2010)




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## Xue Sheng (Aug 12, 2010)

Balrog said:


> As I have said before: it ain't the martial art, it's the martial artist.


 
That is very true and I agree but many don't appear to


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## Steve (Aug 12, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> That is very true and I agree but many don't appear to


Do you really think that's true?  I mean, you can look at the student body of some martial arts vs others and see a clear distinction between the skill levels of one over the other after a comparable amount of time training.

Let's be real, here.  While no amount of structured curriculum can help an unmotivated student learn, it's conversely true that even a motivated student can't succeed if the curriculum is flawed.  If it takes an exceptional student to make a system work, that's a problem, in my opinion.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 12, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Do you really think that's true?  I mean, you can look at the student body of some martial arts vs others and see a clear distinction between the skill levels of one over the other after a comparable amount of time training.
> 
> Let's be real, here.  While no amount of structured curriculum can help an unmotivated student learn, it's conversely true that even a motivated student can't succeed if the curriculum is flawed.  If it takes an exceptional student to make a system work, that's a problem, in my opinion.


True, but what you are saying is more to do with the way the art is taught and not the art itself. There are plenty of MA clubs out there with flawed material in ALL martial arts. I think the point being made was "its the martial art not the martial artist" which I agree with wholeheartedly providing the art is taught properly, the art cant be held to blame because some instructors/clubs dont teach it correctly. I think tkd is an excellent example of this. Ive met tkdists who would be hard pressed to fend off an elderly woman but Ive also met tkdists who I definetly wouldnt want to run into in a dark alley. They both do the same art only difference is one was taught properly and the other wasnt and thats not tkd's fault.


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## Steve (Aug 12, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> True, but what you are saying is more to do with the way the art is taught and not the art itself. There are plenty of MA clubs out there with flawed material in ALL martial arts. I think the point being made was "its the martial art not the martial artist" which I agree with wholeheartedly providing the art is taught properly, the art cant be held to blame because some instructors/clubs dont teach it correctly. I think tkd is an excellent example of this. Ive met tkdists who would be hard pressed to fend off an elderly woman but Ive also met tkdists who I definetly wouldnt want to run into in a dark alley. They both do the same art only difference is one was taught properly and the other wasnt and thats not tkd's fault.


 Wouldn't you agree that the art and how it's taught are part and parcel?  I mean, inherent to _ing _un are the teaching methods.  Inherent to BJJ are the teaching methods.  Inherent to Karate are the teaching methods. 

Let me put it this way... if you consider your art to be exclusive in that only a very few, regardless of effort, can excel, I would except that.  Not everyone can be a nuclear physicist.  Right?  It's expected taht only a few will get it.  A handful.  

But if your intent is to teach people self defense, and only a small percentage of the students in your style can actually defend themselves, that's a problem for me.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 12, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Wouldn't you agree that the art and how it's taught are part and parcel?  I mean, inherent to _ing _un are the teaching methods.  Inherent to BJJ are the teaching methods.  Inherent to Karate are the teaching methods.
> 
> Let me put it this way... if you consider your art to be exclusive in that only a very few, regardless of effort, can excel, I would except that.  Not everyone can be a nuclear physicist.  Right?  It's expected taht only a few will get it.  A handful.
> 
> But if your intent is to teach people self defense, and only a small percentage of the students in your style can actually defend themselves, that's a problem for me.


I personally dont know of any martial arts where only a small percentage of students can defend themselves. I think what Im saying is that if an art is taught properly it is the artist not the art. Tkd, karate , bjj ,kung fu,haokido etc etc are all great for self defence if taught properly. If not taught properly that is not the fault of the art. I liken it to tradesman, you can get a great carpenter or a very ordinary carpenter and the difference is inherently who they did their apprenticeship under, the trade itself works properly but like anything in life if not taught correctly it will be less useful. I have seen many very ordinary martial artists from all the different ma's but Im not about to say they all dont work just because of this minority. The best advice with ANY martial art is find a good school, it doesnt matter what art you choose, if you dont find a good school it will result  in a poor martial artist. Normal school education is also no different, when I moved recently I sent my daughter to a very ordinary school (unbeknownst to me at the time as i was new in the area), their facilities were poor, the teachers were unmotivated and the way they taught the curriculum left a lot to be desired and in very little time her grades dropped drastically. I then moved her to another school just up the road which was of a much higher standard alround and despite the fact that they are teaching the exact same curriculum, with good teachers, facilities etc her grades improved overnight. No different to MA's in my opinion, a good school gets good results but there will always be bad schools out there.


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## Steve (Aug 12, 2010)

Frankly, I think that it's a cop out to say that if something is taught "correctly" then it's the student.  Of course, that's true, but to take your tradesman analogy, there are martial arts alleging to train carpenters, but teach them biology classes.  If your program consistently produces carpenters who can't build things with wood, it's the program, not the students who are at fault.  Blaming the students is a copout, even if you do manage to produce a few students who are exceptional.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 12, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Frankly, I think that it's a cop out to say that if something is taught "correctly" then it's the student.  Of course, that's true, but to take your tradesman analogy, there are martial arts alleging to train carpenters, but teach them biology classes.  If your program consistently produces carpenters who can't build things with wood, it's the program, not the students who are at fault.  Blaming the students is a copout, even if you do manage to produce a few students who are exceptional.


I dont blame students. I believe if something is taught correctly it will be of use to any student. The problem with martial arts is that I could go and rent out a floor space at the shop up the road from me tomorrow and start "ralph's kenpo" and I could hand out some letter box drops and market my new business sparing no expense. Within 2 weeks I could have 50 students and be making good money. The only problem is that I have no training whatsovever in kenpo and dont know the first thing about it. Anyhow, 6 months down the track my business could be thriving and there would be all these very poorly trained kenpo students walking around fresh from "ralph's kenpo". In this example it is unfair for the art of kenpo to get a bad rap because there is a poor school/instructor out there. Im sure kenpo is a great art and is very effective but like all arts there will always be people out there who will try and take advantage of an art's popularity and that is not the art's fault.


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## Omar B (Aug 12, 2010)

This "Ralph's Kenpo" is intriguing to me and I would like to sign up to your dojo.


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## Steve (Aug 12, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I dont blame students. I believe if something is taught correctly it will be of use to any student. The problem with martial arts is that I could go and rent out a floor space at the shop up the road from me tomorrow and start "ralph's kenpo" and I could hand out some letter box drops and market my new business sparing no expense. Within 2 weeks I could have 50 students and be making good money. The only problem is that I have no training whatsovever in kenpo and dont know the first thing about it. Anyhow, 6 months down the track my business could be thriving and there would be all these very poorly trained kenpo students walking around fresh from "ralph's kenpo". In this example it is unfair for the art of kenpo to get a bad rap because there is a poor school/instructor out there. Im sure kenpo is a great art and is very effective but like all arts there will always be people out there who will try and take advantage of an art's popularity and that is not the art's fault.


When Ralph's Kenpo becomes so pervasive that it is the rule and not the exception, there is a systemic problem with the art and I'd argue that the style is broken, not the students.  Once again, I'm just saying that I just don't agree that it's the artist not the art.  In many cases, the "artist" is a motivated, talented athlete learning crap from a crappy instructor in a broken program.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 12, 2010)

Omar B said:


> This "Ralph's Kenpo" is intriguing to me and I would like to sign up to your dojo.


sounds good. Bring a friend along for a free visit. Just give me a few weeks to watch some instructional dvd's so I can try to wing my way through it. I suppose I wont lack that much more credibility than a lot of the dojos Ive seen around lately. Now what colour uniform do I need to teach kenpo..........................?


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## Omar B (Aug 12, 2010)

Wait?  Steve, did you just call Ralph's Kenpo crap?  I have you know you are talking about my style and my instructor man!  Don't let me come open a can of RK on you!


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## Steve (Aug 12, 2010)

LOL. Okay. I give up.   Your kenpo is too much for me.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 12, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> When Ralph's Kenpo becomes so pervasive that it is the rule and not the exception, there is a systemic problem with the art and I'd argue that the style is broken, not the students.  Once again, I'm just saying that I just don't agree that it's the artist not the art.  In many cases, the "artist" is a motivated, talented athlete learning crap from a crappy instructor in a broken program.


I totally agree with your last sentence. I just believe it happens in all arts. It also depends what the student seeks. For example if a student wants to go to the olympics for tkd then they will require a very different tkd club to someone looking at tkd as a means of defending themselves on the street. Neither club is necessarilly wrong, they just cater to different mindsets within the same art. Which again comes back to the importance of finding a good school in whichever art the practitioner chooses.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 13, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Wait?  Steve, did you just call Ralph's Kenpo crap?  I have you know you are talking about my style and my instructor man!  Don't let me come open a can of RK on you!


The irony is that what just played out here is exactly what happens in the real world. Unfortunately out there somewhere there is a version of 'ralph's kenpo', 'ralph's tkd', ralph's mma gym', 'ralph's bjj' and the list goes on and on. And these all give the true essence of the ma a bad name. If someone asks me if tkd is a good art (for instance) all I can tell them is of course it is but make sure you find a good school and my response would be the same for any art. Now its time to get back to my martiala arts franchises lol.


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## Omar B (Aug 13, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> LOL. Okay. I give up.   Your kenpo is too much for me.



Damn right RK is too much for you.  I guess you heard the story about the guy who needs a machine to go to the bathroom.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 13, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> When Ralph's Kenpo becomes so pervasive that it is the rule and not the exception, there is a systemic problem with the art and I'd argue that the style is broken, not the students.  Once again, I'm just saying that I just don't agree that it's the artist not the art.  In many cases, the "artist" is a motivated, talented athlete learning crap from a crappy instructor in a broken program.


sorry to keep harping on this but it is an interesting topic. I feel that popularity is a bad thing for any MA based on where you said "When Ralph's Kenpo becomes so pervasive that it is the rule and not the exception, there is a systematic problem with the art" I agree there is a problem, but not necessarilly with the art. Unfortunately when people want to make quick cash out of MA's they will choose a popular art to get people through the door. Thanks to the recent surge in the popularity in BJJ I now have 4 or 5 clubs within a 10 minute drive of my house (and I only live in suburban australia) and a mate of mine who does BJJ told me one of them is very good with a good rep but the others are just belt factories and he doubts the instructors are even legit. So based on that, credible BJJ clubs in my area are the exception not the rule but that certainly does not affect my opinion that BJJ is very credible and is extremely effective. Unfortunately karate and tkd also suffer from this popularity and with larger numbers of participants there is eventually going to become more shonky clubs.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 13, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Do you really think that's true? I mean, you can look at the student body of some martial arts vs others and see a clear distinction between the skill levels of one over the other after a comparable amount of time training.
> 
> Let's be real, here. While no amount of structured curriculum can help an unmotivated student learn, it's conversely true that even a motivated student can't succeed if the curriculum is flawed. If it takes an exceptional student to make a system work, that's a problem, in my opinion.


 
What system would you call flawed?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 13, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> sorry to keep harping on this but it is an interesting topic. I feel that popularity is a bad thing for any MA based on where you said "When Ralph's Kenpo becomes so pervasive that it is the rule and not the exception, there is a systematic problem with the art" I agree there is a problem, but not necessarilly with the art. Unfortunately when people want to make quick cash out of MA's they will choose a popular art to get people through the door. Thanks to the recent surge in the popularity in BJJ I now have 4 or 5 clubs within a 10 minute drive of my house (and I only live in suburban australia) and a mate of mine who does BJJ told me one of them is very good with a good rep but the others are just belt factories and he doubts the instructors are even legit. So based on that, credible BJJ clubs in my area are the exception not the rule but that certainly does not affect my opinion that BJJ is very credible and is extremely effective. Unfortunately karate and tkd also suffer from this popularity and with larger numbers of participants there is eventually going to become more shonky clubs.


 
This is unfortunately what happens when money becomes a driving force with any system.  Quality and standards are lowered and eventually the full on McDojo is is full swing.  Really it is quite sad!


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 14, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> This is unfortunately what happens when money becomes a driving force with any system.  Quality and standards are lowered and eventually the full on McDojo is is full swing.  Really it is quite sad!


It sure is. But in reality it is to be expected as its what happens to most things in life unfortunately, someone has a good product so others come along and figure out how to best mass produce it to make money. Sadly though, the product suffers. The positive is that the original and best is usually still out there but it just takes a little more shopping around to find it. I dont hate all food just because of mcdonalds and the same can be applied to martial arts I believe.


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## Blade96 (Aug 14, 2010)

i agree with Xue sheng. why have these my dad can beat up your dad type threads? MA a vs MA b. What? There are so many different MA's and everyone is different, maybe one person likes katas and another one dont. so the MA with no kata will suit them better. Honestly its such a personal thing and MA's is in the eyes of the beholder, everyone will find something  very beautiful in their own MA, in their own way.

I likes Shotokan, while Slipper finds her beauty in Aikido. I dont find either one is 'the best' just different. 

as long as it can get the job done and it works on you in all ways physically, emotionally, spiritually, and it enhances you and your life, and *you* find it beautiful, then who cares about 'best'.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 14, 2010)

But ... but ... but ... it's quite clear that MY art istiz the most betterest coz we iz usin the swords, innit? :lol:.


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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> But ... but ... but ... it's quite clear that MY art istiz the most betterest coz we iz usin the swords, innit? :lol:.


 
There is something about swords that seems to fascinate people, not just the Japanese type. Our military still carry them on ceremonial occasions, they are awarded to the best cadets as a mark of achievement and swords are the stuff of fantasy fiction, with them being seen magical or powerful often seen a rallying symbols. The story of Excalibur is still told along with stories of other magical blades. There's definitaly something about swords!  I actually think swords are beautiful.

On another thread which is definitely style v style I've just been told that no one from a Japanese or Korean style is a striker, the styles are just belt factories. This makes me sad, the sweeping generalisation, the disdain for others styles. What's the point?


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 14, 2010)

That's not a sword... now THIS is a sword


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## Steve (Aug 14, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> But ... but ... but ... it's quite clear that MY art istiz the most betterest coz we iz usin the swords, innit? :lol:.


 Please promise us that you'll never try to do that again.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 14, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> That's not a sword... now THIS is a sword



{Scornful sniff} Fake! {Turns head away in disdain}.

What's all that standing-on-one-leg about as well?  Clearly an inferior art to mine ... 

...

... because we do eminently sensible things like sitting on one heel until your foot goes to sleep so you can't get back up again!

:lol:


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 14, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> {Scornful sniff} Fake! {Turns head away in disdain}.
> 
> What's all that standing-on-one-leg about as well? Clearly an inferior art to mine ...
> 
> ...


 
PFHHT one heel going to sleep.. that's nothing







http://www.zhangtaiji.com/images/products/weapons/guandao_6.jpg


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## Steve (Aug 14, 2010)

I will say this, though, it's possible to be too inclusive. It's in our desire to avoid being judgemental that junk thrives. 

It's also okay to have opinions. We just need to recognize them as such. For example, in the other thread, Xeal has made a blanket statement that he couldn't possibly hope to defend. But that doesn't mean that his entire point is off. There are many guys in MMA with terrible stand up. Matt Hamill makes me cringe, his boxing is so bad. While I wouldn't agree that MMA standup is inferior to, say, pro boxing, it's true that there's a pretty decent representative sampling of poor striking to showcase, and Xeal is entitled to his opinion. 

Someone asked what I think is broken. Just for the sake of discussion, I'd say that TKD is broken. I honestly don't know what sort of self defense roots it has, or how effective it _could be_ if taught _correctly. _But I have seen and heard enough from both outside and inside the TKD community to feel pretty comfortable in saying that the bulk of TKD is poorly taught and that schools allege to teach things that they do not. Again, just to be clear, my measure is simply this. If you take 100, 1000 or some other representative sample who have trained for a fixed amount of time (1 year, 3 years, 5 years or whatever), how successful will they be at whatever the school purports to teach? In other words, every TKD school I've seen alleges to teach self defense. After 2 years of diligent training, will the student be able to do so? I'd say most won't.


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## Omar B (Aug 14, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> That's not a sword... now THIS is a sword



Let us pause for a min.  I would like to hear about that sword ... and maybe a little about the jaunty stance of his.


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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Let us pause for a min. I would like to hear about that sword ... and maybe a little about the jaunty stance of his.


 
You know he could be very small and not the sword large?


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## Omar B (Aug 14, 2010)

Your right, such a jaunty stance could never come from a regular sized dude ... unless he was dancing a jig of some sort.  Still, now I'm obsessed with that seemingly gigantic sword.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 14, 2010)

Actually it is a rather large sword. Some styles of Bagua use it and the posture he is in is either a transitional posture frozen in time by the camera, I doubt that by the way. Or he struck a pose for the camera, which is more likely






The first time I ever saw this behemoth of a sword was about 15 years ago in Manhattan Chinatown and my first thought was "Damn that&#8217;s big"


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## Omar B (Aug 14, 2010)

And now I know


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 14, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I will say this, though, it's possible to be too inclusive. It's in our desire to avoid being judgemental that junk thrives.
> 
> It's also okay to have opinions. We just need to recognize them as such. For example, in the other thread, Xeal has made a blanket statement that he couldn't possibly hope to defend. But that doesn't mean that his entire point is off. There are many guys in MMA with terrible stand up. Matt Hamill makes me cringe, his boxing is so bad. While I wouldn't agree that MMA standup is inferior to, say, pro boxing, it's true that there's a pretty decent representative sampling of poor striking to showcase, and Xeal is entitled to his opinion.
> 
> Someone asked what I think is broken. Just for the sake of discussion, I'd say that TKD is broken. I honestly don't know what sort of self defense roots it has, or how effective it _could be_ if taught _correctly. _But I have seen and heard enough from both outside and inside the TKD community to feel pretty comfortable in saying that the bulk of TKD is poorly taught and that schools allege to teach things that they do not. Again, just to be clear, my measure is simply this. If you take 100, 1000 or some other representative sample who have trained for a fixed amount of time (1 year, 3 years, 5 years or whatever), how successful will they be at whatever the school purports to teach? In other words, every TKD school I've seen alleges to teach self defense. After 2 years of diligent training, will the student be able to do so? I'd say most won't.


I believe that is a huge generalisation based only on tkd clubs you know of. Have you visited any tkd clubs in australia, europe, new zealand, korea etc or are you basing that opinion on some mcdojos you know of (there are actually martial arts clubs outside of the usa you know). Also, 2 years of diligent training in any reputable art and you wont even be half way to a black belt (at my club you would be a blue belt). I think its these huge sweeping generalisations that the martial arts can do without. I have 5 tkd clubs within a short distance of my house and none are belt factories and all teach tkd in its purest form. You should also check some european tkd. Actually, I really think you should get out more. As bruce lee said, comparing martial arts is for over zelous beginners. As others have said, the whole "my art is better than yours" is really getting tiring and it usually starts with a generalisation such as yours.


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## Steve (Aug 14, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I believe that is a huge generalisation based only on tkd clubs you know of. Have you visited any tkd clubs in australia, europe, new zealand, korea etc or are you basing that opinion on some mcdojos you know of (there are actually martial arts clubs outside of the usa you know). Also, 2 years of diligent training in any reputable art and you wont even be half way to a black belt (at my club you would be a blue belt). I think its these huge sweeping generalisations that the martial arts can do without. I have 5 tkd clubs within a short distance of my house and none are belt factories and all teach tkd in its purest form. You should also check some european tkd. Actually, I really think you should get out more. As bruce lee said, comparing martial arts is for over zelous beginners. As others have said, the whole "my art is better than yours" is really getting tiring and it usually starts with a generalisation such as yours.


It's not based on my own observations at all.  It's based on the observations of everyone I've ever known who trains or has trained in TKD.  Have you spent any time in the TKD section of this very forum?  The conversations do nothing but support my position.  

You talk about my huge, sweeping generalizations, but then make your own huge, sweeping generalizations.  My point is that being too inclusive, too forgiving or PC or whatever you want to call it actually encourages and enables these belt factories to exist.  Not calling a spade a spade contributes to the problem. 

And TKD isn't the only style where people who train in that style are the first to admit that there are serious quality issues. So, rather than telling me that I need to get out more and implying that I'm an over zealous beginner, why don't you take a step back and try to take an objective look at what I've actually said without jumping to conclusions.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 15, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> It's not based on my own observations at all.  It's based on the observations of everyone I've ever known who trains or has trained in TKD.  Have you spent any time in the TKD section of this very forum?  The conversations do nothing but support my position.
> 
> You talk about my huge, sweeping generalizations, but then make your own huge, sweeping generalizations.  My point is that being too inclusive, too forgiving or PC or whatever you want to call it actually encourages and enables these belt factories to exist.  Not calling a spade a spade contributes to the problem.
> 
> And TKD isn't the only style where people who train in that style are the first to admit that there are serious quality issues. So, rather than telling me that I need to get out more and implying that I'm an over zealous beginner, why don't you take a step back and try to take an objective look at what I've actually said without jumping to conclusions.


Going by your definition, is there any martial art that doesnt have quality issues? I sure cant think of one. Within a short stroll of where I live there are belt factories in karate, kung fu, bjj and hapkido just to name a few and practitioners of all those arts complain of the same issues. I just cant see why you single out tkd. As far as the tkd section of this forum goes, I think you will find that almost everyone is very happy with the tkd club they train at and the level of instruction provided.


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## Steve (Aug 15, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Going by your definition, is there any martial art that doesnt have quality issues? I sure cant think of one. Within a short stroll of where I live there are belt factories in karate, kung fu, bjj and hapkido just to name a few and practitioners of all those arts complain of the same issues. I just cant see why you single out tkd. As far as the tkd section of this forum goes, I think you will find that almost everyone is very happy with the tkd club they train at and the level of instruction provided.


As I said before, when the quality issues become the rule, the system is broken. Based on what people within the TKD community say, belt factories are the norm and no longer the exception. Come on, man. We're going in circles here. But I'm not just talking about TKD. I'm using TKD as one example. This could apply to any style.

And once again, so you keep things in context, this is also in reference to the remark that "it's the artists, not the art." If the system is broken, then it doesn't matter how good the student is. If your style teaches poor technique using poor instructional methods, and it takes an exceptional student to pull it off, it is the art, not the artist that is at fault.

Conversely, if you take 1000 average students and teach them proven technique using solid instructional theory, it's the art, not the artist that is succeeding.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 15, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> As I said before, when the quality issues become the rule, the system is broken. Based on what people within the TKD community say, belt factories are the norm and no longer the exception. Come on, man. We're going in circles here. But I'm not just talking about TKD. I'm using TKD as one example. This could apply to any style.
> 
> And once again, so you keep things in context, this is also in reference to the remark that "it's the artists, not the art." If the system is broken, then it doesn't matter how good the student is. If your style teaches poor technique using poor instructional methods, and it takes an exceptional student to pull it off, it is the art, not the artist that is at fault.
> 
> Conversely, if you take 1000 average students and teach them proven technique using solid instructional theory, it's the art, not the artist that is succeeding.


 
Not really wanting to type much today, as a rule I generally try to avoid PCs all weekend but for some reason I am here

It is still that artist and not the art. The art is broken, but it was not always that way. When I took TKD it was pre-Olympic and we trained high and low kicks, close in fighting, joint locks, etc. That all change. If the art was trained like it was meant to be it would still work. It has been messes up by a whole lot of artists training it wrong. 

However if one trains TKD and decides it is not working they can still find real teachers out there, it is just hard to do. If the artist chooses to stay with the flawed teaching then again it is the artist.

There are a lot of schools out there with the TKD label but, IMO, they are not real TKD


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## Steve (Aug 15, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not really wanting to type much today, as a rule I generally try to avoid PCs all weekend but for some reason I am here
> 
> It is still that artist and not the art. The art is broken, but it was not always that way. When I took TKD it was pre-Olympic and we trained high and low kicks, close in fighting, joint locks, etc. That all change. If the art was trained like it was meant to be it would still work. It has been messes up by a whole lot of artists training it wrong.
> 
> ...


If you take a group of 6 year olds and teach them that 2 +1 = 4, is it the student or the teacher who is at fault?  If everyone in your school district does it, is it the student or the school district at fault?  If the majority of the schools in the world do it, at what point does the entire education system become accountable?

Conversely, every school district I'm aware of world wide teaches that 2+2=4, and there isn't anyone over 6 who believes otherwise.  Again, with such an overwhelming success rate, the students can hardly take credit.  

Because so many styles have internalized teaching methods as well as techniques, it's hardly surprising that entire styles, such as TKD, are having difficulty.  And once again, I"m only using TKD as an example because there is such a large body of information here on this board, along with TKD guys.  TwinFist, Terry and other TKD instructors are very vocal about their problems with the current state of TKD.

In the JKD vs MMA thread, Tez mentioned a guy who has a black belt in TKD.  Your post leads me to wonder how long it's been since he trained in TKD, and how useful that's been to him since.


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> If you take a group of 6 year olds and teach them that 2 +1 = 4, is it the student or the teacher who is at fault? If everyone in your school district does it, is it the student or the school district at fault? If the majority of the schools in the world do it, at what point does the entire education system become accountable?
> 
> Conversely, every school district I'm aware of world wide teaches that 2+2=4, and there isn't anyone over 6 who believes otherwise. Again, with such an overwhelming success rate, the students can hardly take credit.
> 
> ...


 

The guy is barely 20, has trained in 'proper' TKD, the stuff you KO people with, I know, I trained at same place, got the belt just a couple of years ago. He uses it to great effect in the cage. As a lot of people know I really don't like the Olympic TKD, the reason I don't like it is that I find it a travesty of what TKD actually is. I know people will disagree with what I've said but there remains the fact that TKD taught properly is a damn good thing. Perhaps though TKD here like MMA isn't in the same place as TKD in the States. We are smaller, less wealthy and have fewer people involved in martial arts altogether. I'm not saying we are better just that we have less money invested in martial arts so have small classes and schools.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 15, 2010)

Could it just be a reigonal thing? From reading and learning on martial talk it seems that in the USA there is a big problem within tkd, and thats fair enough. I dont know if that problem exists to the same degree outside the states. I know here in australia, we have a much larger problem with karate belt factories. I have several tkd clubs in my area and I would say 80%  of them teach old fashioned, self defence related tkd. At the club I train at we have several police officers who train in tkd to aid in their proffession. We train to kick low, punch heaps and generally knock your opponent out as quick as possible. We have had several guys go and fight in mma comps and do quite well. This could be because most of the GM's out here came here in the 60's and 70's and have not altered their curriculum since and thus we havent "moved with the times" so to speak. The same can be said for many other countries, I have a mate who fought some tkd fighters from turkey (for instance) and said they were just brutal. I know another guy who is a 2nd dan from england and he is not someone I would like to mess with either. So I can understand where you are coming from because you live in a country where obviously tkd has been watered down, but I dont think the art as a whole should cop a bad rap because one country has over commercialised it. Im not saying other countries dont have the same problem, but I think it is to a far lesser degree than what you are witnessing in the states. Basically, I can assure you tkd works and works very well and there are still plenty of places who teach it properly.


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## Steve (Aug 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> The guy is barely 20, has trained in 'proper' TKD, the stuff you KO people with, I know, I trained at same place, got the belt just a couple of years ago. He uses it to great effect in the cage. As a lot of people know I really don't like the Olympic TKD, the reason I don't like it is that I find it a travesty of what TKD actually is. I know people will disagree with what I've said but there remains the fact that TKD taught properly is a damn good thing. Perhaps though TKD here like MMA isn't in the same place as TKD in the States. We are smaller, less wealthy and have fewer people involved in martial arts altogether. I'm not saying we are better just that we have less money invested in martial arts so have small classes and schools.


 


ralphmcpherson said:


> Could it just be a reigonal thing? From reading and learning on martial talk it seems that in the USA there is a big problem within tkd, and thats fair enough. I dont know if that problem exists to the same degree outside the states. I know here in australia, we have a much larger problem with karate belt factories. I have several tkd clubs in my area and I would say 80% of them teach old fashioned, self defence related tkd. At the club I train at we have several police officers who train in tkd to aid in their proffession. We train to kick low, punch heaps and generally knock your opponent out as quick as possible. We have had several guys go and fight in mma comps and do quite well. This could be because most of the GM's out here came here in the 60's and 70's and have not altered their curriculum since and thus we havent "moved with the times" so to speak. The same can be said for many other countries, I have a mate who fought some tkd fighters from turkey (for instance) and said they were just brutal. I know another guy who is a 2nd dan from england and he is not someone I would like to mess with either. So I can understand where you are coming from because you live in a country where obviously tkd has been watered down, but I dont think the art as a whole should cop a bad rap because one country has over commercialised it. Im not saying other countries dont have the same problem, but I think it is to a far lesser degree than what you are witnessing in the states. Basically, I can assure you tkd works and works very well and there are still plenty of places who teach it properly.


I'm going to take a deep breath and try just one more time.  I've said several times now that TKD is only an example.  An example.  You're missing the forest for the trees.  Honestly, I really don't care what you'lre opinions are about TKD.  I've said several times that I don't honestly care about TKD at all.  I'm simply sharing what I've heard a thousand times by people who teach and train in TKD on these boards and others I read.  Go to MAP, where more Brits post and it's the same stuff.  I have no stake in TKD.  It could do well or disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't miss it.  It's an example of a style where mcdojoism, belt factories, and more relevant to this thread, people who can't actually defend themselves are common.

I must have said this at least 5 times in this thread now, but it could be any style.  There is a point where the problem is systemic, where it becomes the rule.  Are you guys just yanking my chain?    Ralph, pretend I said karate and apply it to your locale.  The point remains the same, it's not the artist; it's the art. I understand that this is a common phrase bandied about by martial artists, but someone said it in this thread as though it's self evident.  I think that's crap.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 16, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I'm going to take a deep breath and try just one more time.  I've said several times now that TKD is only an example.  An example.  You're missing the forest for the trees.  Honestly, I really don't care what you'lre opinions are about TKD.  I've said several times that I don't honestly care about TKD at all.  I'm simply sharing what I've heard a thousand times by people who teach and train in TKD on these boards and others I read.  Go to MAP, where more Brits post and it's the same stuff.  I have no stake in TKD.  It could do well or disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't miss it.  It's an example of a style where mcdojoism, belt factories, and more relevant to this thread, people who can't actually defend themselves are common.
> 
> I must have said this at least 5 times in this thread now, but it could be any style.  There is a point where the problem is systemic, where it becomes the rule.  Are you guys just yanking my chain?    Ralph, pretend I said karate and apply it to your locale.  The point remains the same, it's not the artist; it's the art. I understand that this is a common phrase bandied about by martial artists, but someone said it in this thread as though it's self evident.  I think that's crap.


Fair enough, I understand where you are coming from. You should have said "all martial arts are being watered down by mcdojoism" because by your definition I struggle to think of one that isnt. Karate is full of mcdojos, kung fu is full of mcdojos, tkd is full of mcdojos and as much as you probably dont want to hear it, bjj mcdojos are sprouting up like mushrooms, give it time and they will be everywhere (remember there were no tkd mcdojos in the 50's, but once it became popular...). A GOOD school in ANY martial art is getting harder to find.


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Fair enough, I understand where you are coming from. You should have said "all martial arts are being watered down by mcdojoism" because by your definition I struggle to think of one that isnt. Karate is full of mcdojos, kung fu is full of mcdojos, tkd is full of mcdojos and as much as you probably dont want to hear it, bjj mcdojos are sprouting up like mushrooms, give it time and they will be everywhere (remember there were no tkd mcdojos in the 50's, but once it became popular...). A GOOD school in ANY martial art is getting harder to find.


 
Good post and since MMA stated getting bigger we have had a problem with BJJ McDojos here, any Brazilian over here with a little knowledge of BJJ seems to have cashed in it now, where we used to have very few black belts and they took years to earn we are seeing more and more BB being awarded after a couple of years now. Thse BB of course are then openng their own places to make money.
People see a cash flow not students, they see a business not a martial arts heritage, there's nothing wrong in earning money from martial arts as long as there's value for money.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Good post and since MMA stated getting bigger we have had a problem with BJJ McDojos here, any Brazilian over here with a little knowledge of BJJ seems to have cashed in it now, where we used to have very few black belts and they took years to earn we are seeing more and more BB being awarded after a couple of years now. Thse BB of course are then openng their own places to make money.
> People see a cash flow not students, they see a business not a martial arts heritage, there's nothing wrong in earning money from martial arts as long as there's value for money.


I totally agree. Eventually the arts that are gaining popularity now will be tomorrow's mcdojos and then you will hear people saying "bjj is ineffective, and people who do it cant even defend themselves". Ive learnt (particularly through being a tkdist) that the art isnt broke, the art is as effective as it ever was, there are just schools out there where making money is the number one focus. And that is why I believe its the artist not the art, if the artist does their research and joins a reputable club then they WILL become a good martial artist in whichever art they choose. The problem forums can have is that people generally post to complain about what is wrong with an art, people who are happy with where they train dont have any reason to post about it. Im sure if you started a poll on the tkd forum asking "are you training at a reputable tkd club or a mcdojo?", more than 90% would say their club is reputable. Most people who train at mcdojos give it away after a couple of years (if that) and never become 'martial artists' anyway.


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2010)

It's the 'silent majority' thing, most of us who do post on forums are probably more 'vocal' than many lol. There's an MMA site in the UK that is used by a few fighters but mostly by fans so reading that you would get a skewed opinion of MMA in the UK. A lot of it is moaning ie 'why didn't fighter A hit fighter B on such and such fight' and 'why are company A's t shirts more expensive than anyone elses' etc etc along with a whole load of quite weird stuff and not a little porn. (no I'm not posting the link lol) The people with a beef always find somewhere to have a moan, the others just get on with what they are doing, I imagine it goes for a great many sports and activities not just martial arts.
A lot of the complaints I've seen here about TKD are actually about organisers and organisations not the style so much but people who like to empire build and as I've said before they are common everywhere. The only style if you can call it that that actually cause arguments is the Olympic TKD and while thats a matter of taste I doubt it's bad Olympic TKD.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It's the 'silent majority' thing, most of us who do post on forums are probably more 'vocal' than many lol. There's an MMA site in the UK that is used by a few fighters but mostly by fans so reading that you would get a skewed opinion of MMA in the UK. A lot of it is moaning ie 'why didn't fighter A hit fighter B on such and such fight' and 'why are company A's t shirts more expensive than anyone elses' etc etc along with a whole load of quite weird stuff and not a little porn. (no I'm not posting the link lol) The people with a beef always find somewhere to have a moan, the others just get on with what they are doing, I imagine it goes for a great many sports and activities not just martial arts.
> A lot of the complaints I've seen here about TKD are actually about organisers and organisations not the style so much but people who like to empire build and as I've said before they are common everywhere. The only style if you can call it that that actually cause arguments is the Olympic TKD and while thats a matter of taste I doubt it's bad Olympic TKD.


I liken the olympic tkd style to the way cricket is set up. There are test match cricketers, one day cricketers and 20/20 cricketers. They all play cricket but different formats of the same game. Likewise in tkd there are sports practitioners and traditional practitioners and like cricket most people get a taste of the game early on and then choose which 'format' suits what thy are looking for. As with cricket there are the purists who love their test cricket and then there are the people who love the shorter version of the game. Cricket caters for all tastes within the game. So does TKD. Sorry about all the cricket analogies.


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I liken the olympic tkd style to the way cricket is set up. There are test match cricketers, one day cricketers and 20/20 cricketers. They all play cricket but different formats of the same game. Likewise in tkd there are sports practitioners and traditional practitioners and like cricket most people get a taste of the game early on and then choose which 'format' suits what thy are looking for. As with cricket there are the purists who love their test cricket and then there are the people who love the shorter version of the game. Cricket caters for all tastes within the game. So does TKD. *Sorry about all the cricket* *analogies*.


 
You must know my other half lol. He'll watch all cricket! Even that rather weird stuff that comes from Hong Kong where the crowd get money if they catch the ball! I like the Aussie commentators on that though.


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2010)

Balrog said:


> As I have said before: it ain't the martial art, it's the martial artist.


 


Xue Sheng said:


> That is very true and I agree but many don't appear to


 
I too, agree with this.  IMO, its a trickle down effect.  You get a bunch of low-quality people teaching garbage, and that garbage will be passed on, and on and on.  For example...lets take the Bujinkan, and art that is HIGHLY critized.  Dont believe me?  I can go to youtube, search bujinkan, post a bunch of vids, and you'll see all the negative comments.  

Now, before anyone takes what I'm saying the wrong way, let me clarify...I used the BJK as an example only.  I personally have no issues with it.  I've seen (thanks to facebook) some great BJK clips, by some top quality teachers.  The problem is what we see on YT is, IMO, very often poor quality, thus the negativity, thus the impression that the art as a whole, sucks.  

I've seen the same thing with Kenpo.  We see it with TKD.  

That being said, I stand by what I and some others have said...IMO, its the person, not the art.  The art suffers because of the person/people doing it.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 16, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> If you take a group of 6 year olds and teach them that 2 +1 = 4, is it the student or the teacher who is at fault? If everyone in your school district does it, is it the student or the school district at fault? If the majority of the schools in the world do it, at what point does the entire education system become accountable?
> 
> Conversely, every school district I'm aware of world wide teaches that 2+2=4, and there isn't anyone over 6 who believes otherwise. Again, with such an overwhelming success rate, the students can hardly take credit.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not saying TKD is not broken (or for that matter mostly dead), I am saying the style if trained properly, and it rarely is, is effective. And why is it not trained properly? Due to people who either did not learn it properly and then went off to teach or more likely those that were not qualified to teach jumping on the TKD bandwagon to open schools and make money. And if you target children it is likely the parents have no clue as to whether or not this works. In my daughters class I do believe of all the multitude of parents there I am the only MAist he has and he was not happy I trained TKD before when he found out who I trained with. But to the point target children in this way and eventually you end up with something that is not effective, not truly TKD and only using the TKD label for monetary purposes. I see, much the same in Taijiquan. I train with the MA still intact but there are very few out there that know the art like my sifu. And I agree with Chen Xiaowang (who also is very good at MA) that Taijiquan as a martial art is virtually dead due to the fact that there are so many out there that know nothing of the MA of it as compared to the few that do. 

I feel TKD is gone the same route, there are still a few out there that know it, my teacher is still teaching and if he is still teaching like he taught me then his students are still capable martial artists.

So I am still at it is the artist not the art since, IMO, most of what is out there today is not real TKD, it is only TKD in name only and that is being propagated by less than stellar artists or sadly, by those that got taken hook, line and sinker.

However there are still a few TKD MA Schools out there and if anyone from the TKD in name only schools whishes to take off the blinders and look around they too can go train better MA.


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## rlp271 (Aug 16, 2010)

I think the point that was being made is that when the art suffers because of the people for too long, the art does become the problem.  The people are the root, but when they corrupt a martial art long enough, the martial art can become the problem.  It happens when very few people know better.  It comes down to lineage problems.  This has nothing to do with distance from the original source mind you, and everything to do with who is in the chain.  I have done Isshinryu Karate for a long time.  It's a young martial art, and there shouldn't be a ton of separation from the founder.

Let's say my teacher is 3 people removed from Tatsuo Shimabuku.  His teacher's teacher trained with Harold Long, who was one of Shimabuku's direct students.  My teacher's teacher was a big point sparring competition guy, so he taught his students with stop point (tag) competitions in mind, no self defense at all.  That means my teacher is going to teach the same way, and if I become an instructor, so will I.  You go far enough and the market is saturated with that product.  That's when the martial art IS the problem.  It has become the problem because of the people who do it, but it is the problem nonetheless.  It could be any martial art.  If you go back to the root of the martial art, you can find the good stuff, the practical stuff, the valuable stuff, but what if there is no place to find that?  What then?  Is it still the people?  Most people can't teach themselves that stuff.  They need someone.  Those someones are getting to be fewer and fewer in a lot of martial arts.  I think we're all basically saying the same thing from different viewpoints.

The only martial art that is so heavily regulated that it doesn't seem to have these problems in the US is Judo.  To get anywhere in Judo, you need to compete.  To compete you have to belong to one of the big three.  There's no way you can get on a mat in a Judo shiai without belonging to one of the big three.  Judo in the United States is pretty much ruled with an iron fist, and because of the nature of testing in Judo, there's no way around it.  You can't BS your way in Judo and have anyone have a clue who you are.

I've believed for quite a while that Karate needs a similar governing body that sets down good, solid competition rules.  Maybe we can get rid of playing games of tag?


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2010)

My instructor is 'old time' Judo, he says and you can see this yourself that Judo has been watered down for the Olympics, to make it more spectator friendly. A lot of the ground work has been taken out as non Judokas found it 'boring'. 
There are outside influences at play, nothing to do with lineages etc. People these days don't want to train for years to get a BB, they are used to instant everything, why learn to cook when you can buy stuff to put in the microwave? Everything is 'fast' these days, instant gratification so martial arts instructors if they want students in through the door have to decide whether they want a few dedicated students who will happily train for years or whether they want loads of students, learning little but all getting the grades and belts they seek. The latter is the problem, how do you fit years of knowledge and practice into a short time to please the customers as that's what they are now, you have to simplify and modify you syllabus ie make it easier.
 I doubt it's a new problem however, the need to eat and have a roof over yours and your familiy's heads isn't a new thing so saying 'oh it was better in the old days' is unlikely to be true. At some point most of us will have to sacrifice something we love doing for the need to make a living.


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## Steve (Aug 16, 2010)

Because the way an art is taught is often inherent to the art, it is an institutional issue.  

If I went to 100 or 1000 BJJ schools, I'm going to see many of the same things in each and every one of them.  Why?  Because, by and large, the instructors in these schools are teaching the way they were taught.  

Same for TKD schools, Wing Chun schools and all of the rest.


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Because the way an art is taught is often inherent to the art, it is an institutional issue.
> 
> If I went to 100 or 1000 BJJ schools, I'm going to see many of the same things in each and every one of them. Why? Because, by and large, the instructors in these schools are teaching the way they were taught.
> 
> Same for TKD schools, Wing Chun schools and all of the rest.


 
But out of those 100 or 1000 BJJ schools, how many are really going to have sub-par teachers?  Would I see a ton of negative comments on BJJ youtube clips?  Now, apply that to an art that gets bashed all the time.  I find it hard to believe that there are that many arts that suck.  Thats why I feel its the person doing the art.  

Ex: I could take a Kenpo orange belt and do the same kata as they're doing.  When they're performing, they could look like pure garbage, have crappy stances, weak punches, etc., while I look sharp and crisp.  Is it the teacher?  Is it them?  Is it me?  Many a time, I've taught someone something, and get frustrated as hell, because they're just not getting it...its just not sinking in.  Yet I could show the same thing to someone else, and they pick it up, no problem.


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## Steve (Aug 16, 2010)

MJS said:


> But out of those 100 or 1000 BJJ schools, how many are really going to have sub-par teachers? Would I see a ton of negative comments on BJJ youtube clips? Now, apply that to an art that gets bashed all the time. I find it hard to believe that there are that many arts that suck. Thats why I feel its the person doing the art.


I'm not sure what you mean here, MJS.  I just don't think I'm tracking you.  I'm not basing anything on YouTube.  Once again, I picked TKD only because there have been so many threads here about McDojos and whatnot that I thought it would be good to illustrate my point... that within the TKD community there are many people who have self-identified this as an issue.  The bujinkan and the wing chun communities have done the same.  

I'm not talking about what people outside the art think.





> Ex: I could take a Kenpo orange belt and do the same kata as they're doing. When they're performing, they could look like pure garbage, have crappy stances, weak punches, etc., while I look sharp and crisp. Is it the teacher? Is it them? Is it me? Many a time, I've taught someone something, and get frustrated as hell, because they're just not getting it...its just not sinking in. Yet I could show the same thing to someone else, and they pick it up, no problem.


Okay, sure.  I can understand this.  I'm talking on a much broader scale.  If a style has identified core skills and abilities that are being promised to students, but only a very few actually get these skills and abilities, there is a problem.  I'm not talking day to day training.  And I'm not talking about looking at videos on YouTube.

Once again, if a style purports to teach self-defense, can students actually do so after 1 year?  5 years?  10 years?  If not, isn't that a problem?  If someone has no physical or mental health issues that preclude exercise, and trains in a style 3 to 4 times each week for some predictable amount of time, will that person ACTUALLY be able to do the things promised in the brochure?


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 16, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm not saying TKD is not broken (or for that matter mostly dead), I am saying the style if trained properly, and it rarely is, is effective. And why is it not trained properly? Due to people who either did not learn it properly and then went off to teach or more likely those that were not qualified to teach jumping on the TKD bandwagon to open schools and make money. And if you target children it is likely the parents have no clue as to whether or not this works. In my daughters class I do believe of all the multitude of parents there I am the only MAist he has and he was not happy I trained TKD before when he found out who I trained with. But to the point target children in this way and eventually you end up with something that is not effective, not truly TKD and only using the TKD label for monetary purposes. I see, much the same in Taijiquan. I train with the MA still intact but there are very few out there that know the art like my sifu. And I agree with Chen Xiaowang (who also is very good at MA) that Taijiquan as a martial art is virtually dead due to the fact that there are so many out there that know nothing of the MA of it as compared to the few that do.
> 
> I feel TKD is gone the same route, there are still a few out there that know it, my teacher is still teaching and if he is still teaching like he taught me then his students are still capable martial artists.
> 
> ...


Again, how much of this is based on whats happening/happened in the USA. I have 5 schools within a short drive of my home that teach "real tkd" and only one mcdojo. It would actually be easier around here to find 'real' tkd than a tkd in name club. I can only laugh when I read comments suggesting tkd is 'mostly dead'. My club has 4000 members and teaches 'real tkd' and our club is growing at an alarming rate and we are far from the biggest club I know of. I feel very sorry for tkdists in the USA if thats whats really happening over there.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 17, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Again, how much of this is based on whats happening/happened in the USA. I have 5 schools within a short drive of my home that teach "real tkd" and only one mcdojo. It would actually be easier around here to find 'real' tkd than a tkd in name club. I can only laugh when I read comments suggesting tkd is 'mostly dead'. My club has 4000 members and teaches 'real tkd' and our club is growing at an alarming rate and we are far from the biggest club I know of. I feel very sorry for tkdists in the USA if thats whats really happening over there.


 
Well since I do not live outside of the USA I would have to say 100% of it is based on the USA.

I do not doubt things are different elsewhere and I do not doubt what you are saying but does your school and/or the other TKD schools near you teach joint locking, take downs, close in fighting and strikes outside of the point zone?


And lastly I have to be more careful as to what example I use, I REALLY do not want to make this about TKD.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 17, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Xue I do not believe it is fear but rather what I call be westrnized to the max. We must always be better and if not we will argue and change thing until we are. Americans for the most part walk around with a chip on thier shoulders because they have no other way to express themself because our society dictates that if we show weakness than we are, if we so remorse than they are stronger. Hell look we change football to American football because we could not keep up. Look in Basketball we are seeing more in more over sea's players being drafted.


No offense intended, and no offense taken, but I strongly (and respectfully) disagree with you regarding the above. A rare thing, to be sure, as I generally find you to be right on the money.

I don't see Americans as walking around with chips on their shoulder. Maybe its a regional difference? I don't know, but self expression does not seem to be a problem and people have and make good use of a variety of ways to express themselves.

Not showing weakness is kind of a universal characteristic and not distinctly American. American culture is really an extension of other cultures, primarily Western Europe, and while we have a great deal of distictness, we also still carry much of the mindset of Western Europe. But as Xue pointed out, this sort of thing is going on in China, and likely goes on everywhere.

Regarding football, American football is termed American to differentiate it from what is called football everywhere else, which we call soccer. One is an entirely different sport from the other, not one being radically changed into the other.  I don't ever recall hearing the term 'American football' until I took a foreign language class, and the only time that I ever hear it these days is when the subject is being dicussed between a US American and someone from outside of the US.

The NBA teams that look overseas are doing so because they want a greater talent pool.

In the end, we debate and discuss everything to the nth degree because debate and discourse is part of the fabric of our culture. We have the freedom to do so, and so we do. The beauty is that we can do so, sometimes to the point of things being heated, and then shake hands and share a drink.

I think that the constant this art vs. that art that we see in forums is more a symptom of the internet. Magazines want to sell more magazines, so they pick topics with some degree of controversy. Sometimes they create controversy where there is none in order to make the article more attractive.

For most people that I know, MMA vs. TMA is a personal choice based on one's training needs and goals rather than a question of superiority of one over the other.



terryl965 said:


> I believe the old saying goes no art is perfect no human is perfect but we can all train and be perfect for that one moment if need be. So in the end just keep working on being perfect for that single moment when you may need to be.


On the other hand, I completely agree with this.

Daniel


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## Drac (Aug 17, 2010)

To me what it all boils down to is that if people spent more time at serious training they would have less time to spend bashing another art or its Grandmaster, Soke, Founder, etc..etc..


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 17, 2010)

Drac said:


> To me what it all boils down to is that if people spent more time at serious training they would have less time to spend bashing another art or its Grandmaster, Soke, Founder, etc..etc..


 
Agreed... but of course you realize

You have offended my family and you have offended the Shaolin Temple


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## MJS (Aug 17, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Because the way an art is taught is often inherent to the art, it is an institutional issue.
> 
> If I went to 100 or 1000 BJJ schools, I'm going to see many of the same things in each and every one of them. Why? Because, by and large, the instructors in these schools are teaching the way they were taught.
> 
> Same for TKD schools, Wing Chun schools and all of the rest.


 


stevebjj said:


> I'm not sure what you mean here, MJS. I just don't think I'm tracking you. I'm not basing anything on YouTube. Once again, I picked TKD only because there have been so many threads here about McDojos and whatnot that I thought it would be good to illustrate my point... that within the TKD community there are many people who have self-identified this as an issue. The bujinkan and the wing chun communities have done the same.
> 
> I'm not talking about what people outside the art think.Okay, sure. I can understand this. I'm talking on a much broader scale. If a style has identified core skills and abilities that are being promised to students, but only a very few actually get these skills and abilities, there is a problem. I'm not talking day to day training. And I'm not talking about looking at videos on YouTube.
> 
> Once again, if a style purports to teach self-defense, can students actually do so after 1 year? 5 years? 10 years? If not, isn't that a problem? If someone has no physical or mental health issues that preclude exercise, and trains in a style 3 to 4 times each week for some predictable amount of time, will that person ACTUALLY be able to do the things promised in the brochure?


 
Hey Steve,

Yeah, sounds like there may be a misunderstanding here.   Let me attempt to clarify.   If I've been following this correctly, you feel that its the art, not the student, and I feel its the student, not the art.  Am I correct?  If so, what led me to say what I did, was your post about BJJ.  I would say that BJJ has higher standards than your typical art.  So, if thats the case, chances are, it'll probably produce higher quality students.  

You could have other arts, in which the teachers are great, but still within that same art, you could have teachers that suck.  The good teachers will produce quality students, while the lousy teachers will produce subpar students.  

This is why I said its the student, not the art.


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## wushuguy (Aug 17, 2010)

This is very interesting, from my take on it, it's a mix of both the ability of the practitioners of the style and how defunct the style has become due to various reasons.

So, some styles become more popular and have to lend itself for the vast populations to join in, then it becomes more defunct as more of those people join and the majority of teachers eventually need to lower expectations to keep students interested and "progressing" or the teachers see the cash cow and change the style to adapt.

Martial arts isn't for everyone who just wants to do it or look good, etc. but for it to be good, one has to have the heart and proper training and diligence and experience.  So as long as instructors continue to cater to the masses in the name of "spreading their art far and wide", then the art's true capability will eventually be lost, perhaps to the extent as to not be able to recover its former appearance again...


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 17, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well since I do not live outside of the USA I would have to say 100% of it is based on the USA.
> 
> I do not doubt things are different elsewhere and I do not doubt what you are saying but does your school and/or the other TKD schools near you teach joint locking, take downs, close in fighting and strikes outside of the point zone?
> 
> ...


Yes, joint locking, takedowns, close in fighting are all heavily involved in our curriculum and as we spar to knock our opponent out and not for points we certainly learn to execute and defend against strikes outside the points zone. To be honest, I wouldnt even know how the point system works in olympic tkd sparring as Ive never done it and have never been taught it. And as I said earlier, this goes for almost all tkd clubs in my area. I have no problem whatsoever with sport tkd and its extremely popular and a great sport for kids to get into BUT it is only one form of tkd. I did a quick check in the yellow pages last night and it seems the clubs training the sport version of tkd are a lot harder to find around here and none of them claimed to teach self defence, they actaully advertise that they teach the sport aspect of tkd. As I said in a previous post, I really feel sorry for tkdists over there based on what you have said.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 17, 2010)

Ive alaways found it strange that the average person looking at getting into martial arts does very little "shopping around" before they make a choice and I think mcdojos can prey on this. Generally before most people purchase something they jump all over the net comparing products and prices and reading numerous reviews before making an informed decision. With martial arts, however, people usually just join the club thats just up the road and dont even know the difference between tkd and karate or bjj and kung fu, I certainly know I didnt. I was no different, I just joined the club up the road, I had no idea what tkd was, I just thought all martial arts were basically the same. Fortunately for me I joined a great club that teaches real self defence related tkd and all turned out well. But really, if someone wants to start  in any martial art it doesnt take a great deal of research to learn how to avoid a mcdojo. On the other hand research can be misleading because if Id read a thread such as this prior to making my decision I would probably have never chosen tkd due to the generalisations based around the art. Basically, if people do their research prior to joining a club then they will become a very good martial artist irrespective of what art they choose and again thats why I believe its the artist not the art.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 18, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Ive alaways found it strange that the average person looking at getting into martial arts does very little "shopping around" before they make a choice and I think mcdojos can prey on this. Generally before most people purchase something they jump all over the net comparing products and prices and reading numerous reviews before making an informed decision. With martial arts, however, people usually just join the club thats just up the road and dont even know the difference between tkd and karate or bjj and kung fu, I certainly know I didnt. I was no different, I just joined the club up the road, I had no idea what tkd was, I just thought all martial arts were basically the same. Fortunately for me I joined a great club that teaches real self defence related tkd and all turned out well. But really, if someone wants to start in any martial art it doesnt take a great deal of research to learn how to avoid a mcdojo. On the other hand research can be misleading because if Id read a thread such as this prior to making my decision I would probably have never chosen tkd due to the generalisations based around the art. Basically, if people do their research prior to joining a club then they will become a very good martial artist irrespective of what art they choose and again thats why I believe its the artist not the art.


 
Very true, but one has to take into consideration, at least on the left side of the Atlantic/Right Side of the Pacific , that the McDojos have the cash to advertise.

In my chosen area of MA, Chinese Martial arts, notoriously the people that are the real good teachers do not advertise. I know of 2 very good Wing Chun Schools that do not advertise, there are 3 by the way, and the worst had the biggest add campaign. My Taiji sifu does not advertise at all but my first sifu advertises a lot and has a huge school but these days he is a charlatan at best. My Sanda sifu does not advertise at all either. The best Aikido school in my area has a webpage, but that is it. A good Judo school is slowly vanishing and does not advertise. There are 2 JKD schools the one that is not to bad does not advertise.

But the big TKD and Karate schools advertise a lot and in my area, sadly, big does not mean better in MA. 

So, at least in my area, to find the good schools it can mean a WHOLE lot of research, much more than the research one would need to do to compare products


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 18, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Ive alaways found it strange that the average person looking at getting into martial arts does very little "shopping around" before they make a choice and I think mcdojos can prey on this.


People put more effort and research into the purchase of a television than they do a martial arts school, even one to which they are entrusting their kids.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Aug 18, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> In my chosen area of MA, Chinese Martial arts, notoriously the people that are the real good teachers do not advertise. I know of 2 very good Wing Chun Schools that do not advertise, there are 3 by the way, and the worst had the biggest add campaign. My Taiji sifu does not advertise at all but my first sifu advertises a lot and has a huge school but these days he is a charlatan at best. My Sanda sifu does not advertise at all either. The best Aikido school in my area has a webpage, but that is it. A good Judo school is slowly vanishing and does not advertise. There are 2 JKD schools the one that is not to bad does not advertise.
> 
> But the big TKD and Karate schools advertise a lot and in my area, sadly, big does not mean better in MA.
> 
> So, at least in my area, to find the good schools it can mean a WHOLE lot of research, much more than the research one would need to do to compare products



I believe this is true in my area too, regardless of the art.  To me the best training occurs when classes are small, so the instructor is able to give each student proper attention and corrections.  My own teacher spent a lot of time just watching me punch the makiwara or shifting through stances.  You simply just can't have that same attention to detail when you have a class of 20+ people, most of which are probably children.

McDojos generally have excellent facilities and equipment because they can afford them - actually, it's part of the marketing presentation.  That said, they cannot have the same level of teaching excellence, even when there are multiple 'certified instructors' on the floor, because the assistants came up through the same deficient pedagogy.


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## dancingalone (Aug 18, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> People put more effort and research into the purchase of a television than they do a martial arts school, even one to which they are entrusting their kids.
> 
> Daniel



I've read through those martial arts school success packages.  They say with probably good reason that people pick their schools by 

1) location
2) price
3) training schedule

in that order.


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## MJS (Aug 18, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Ive alaways found it strange that the average person looking at getting into martial arts does very little "shopping around" before they make a choice and I think mcdojos can prey on this. Generally before most people purchase something they jump all over the net comparing products and prices and reading numerous reviews before making an informed decision. With martial arts, however, people usually just join the club thats just up the road and dont even know the difference between tkd and karate or bjj and kung fu, I certainly know I didnt. I was no different, I just joined the club up the road, I had no idea what tkd was, I just thought all martial arts were basically the same. Fortunately for me I joined a great club that teaches real self defence related tkd and all turned out well. But really, if someone wants to start in any martial art it doesnt take a great deal of research to learn how to avoid a mcdojo. On the other hand research can be misleading because if Id read a thread such as this prior to making my decision I would probably have never chosen tkd due to the generalisations based around the art. Basically, if people do their research prior to joining a club then they will become a very good martial artist irrespective of what art they choose and again thats why I believe its the artist not the art.


 
LOL, I know, isnt that funny.  Buy a car, house, you always go to look, test drive, etc.  Likewise, I too, joined a school close by.  I was young, parents thought it would be good for me to have an activity, thus, I ended up at the closest school to my house.

Then again, I like to give credit where its due, so if it wasnt for that school, I probably would never have had the chance to train and meet with all of the wonderful people that I do today.   Now, ask me if, knowing what I know now, would I join up at that school?  No.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 18, 2010)

I said it before and I will say it again: One guy out there teaching cheese makes us all look cheesy a little bit by association.

so there is SOME  point in calling out the flakes and frauds.

thats not style vs style so much, but that is part of it too.


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## BloodMoney (Aug 18, 2010)

As someone who trains in multiple arts I often come into conflict with a student from one saying something about another. Ill get "Wing Chun kicks BJJ's ****" or "BJJ beats everything, look at the Gracies" etc...my answer? Well its hard, you can argue any point.

"Wing Chun kicks BJJ's ****" = "Not on the ground it doesnt!"
"BJJ beats everything, look at the Gracies" = What about multiple armed attackers?

etc

Every art has its strength and weaknesses, I respect all of them (maybe less respect for some of these modern, western "defense systems" some random guy just invented last week).

What most people dont understand that art vs art can only ever be philosophical. Anything else is down to the individual. Chun beats BJJ? Okay then clearly the Chun practitioner was better at Chun than the BJJ practitioner at BJJ, and vice versa. A **** Chun guy vs a black belt in BJJ is going to get his **** handed to him, a white belt in BJJ vs. a senior Chun practitioner will eat a whole lot of kicks well before he gets a takedown etc etc...its all about the individual and his prowess (and size, weight, age etc).

I do enjoy philosophically talking about the differences in theory between arts, but in all honesty even the most different arts break down to the same fundamentals (ideally) much like religion.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I've read through those martial arts school success packages. They say with probably good reason that people pick their schools by
> 
> 1) location
> 2) price
> ...


Absolutely.  Yet another reason for my low opinion of the general public.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 19, 2010)

BloodMoney said:


> As someone who trains in multiple arts I often come into conflict with a student from one saying something about another. Ill get "Wing Chun kicks BJJ's ****" or "BJJ beats everything, look at the Gracies" etc...my answer? Well its hard, you can argue any point.
> 
> "Wing Chun kicks BJJ's ****" = "Not on the ground it doesnt!"
> "BJJ beats everything, look at the Gracies" = What about multiple armed attackers?
> ...


Good observations.

I think that the problem is, at least part of it, is that people view a martial art as some kind of power up or performance enhancement.  Because they view it that way, and because of the usual human tendency to want to be higher in the pecking order, it becomes a competitive, 'my art is the best' or at least 'better' than that of the next guys.

People also have a need to associate with a specific group.  It's why we have fan clubs, fans wearing team jerseys, fans of one team hating fans of another team just because they're fans of another team, and sometimes riots at sporting events.  

The martial art becomes the larger club.  Then if that is not specific enough, the organization becomes important.  'I'm kukkiwon, and that's the *real* taekwondo' sort of nonsense then begins.

Daniel


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## Steve (Aug 19, 2010)

MJS said:


> Hey Steve,
> 
> Yeah, sounds like there may be a misunderstanding here.  Let me attempt to clarify.  If I've been following this correctly, you feel that its the art, not the student, and I feel its the student, not the art. Am I correct? If so, what led me to say what I did, was your post about BJJ. I would say that BJJ has higher standards than your typical art. So, if thats the case, chances are, it'll probably produce higher quality students.
> 
> ...


Hey, sorry, MJS.  I missed this response.  I see your point, but it's not quite where I'm going.   What I'm suggesting is that BJJ has mechanisms within the art that discourage deviation from the standard.  It's very difficult for a BJJ or submission grappling school to operate in a vacuum.  There's an expectation that at least some of the students at every school will compete, and it's these students competing at every level from white to black that keeps belt standards consistent.  It's not about higher or lower standards, it's consistent standards across the board.  

My point is that this is systemic.  It's institutional.  While anyone can allege that BJJ McDojos are popping up everywhere, I have seen no evidence that this is any kind of a real problem.  If the ruleset changes significantly, such as what's happened in Judo, there might be problems in the future.  But that's a hypothetical at this point.   Just to be very, very clear.  I'm not suggesting that BJJ is immune to these issues.  I'm only saying that right now, there are internal mechanisms in place that discourage these issues.  I hope they continue to work.  Ultimately, if a student walks into a BJJ school and trains at least 3 times each week, and the instructor is an actual brown or black belt in BJJ, chances are very, very good that this person will learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.  REgardless of aptitude or physical conditioning, this person can't help but get better at BJJ.  Just by virtue of being on the mat, sparring with upper belts, it's impossible to not get better.

On the other hand, you have arts like the Bujinkan, WC, TKD and even some branches of Karate, where folks within the art are lamenting the current state of the art.  

So, back to your point.  You're talking about instructors.  I'm saying that good instructors in a broken system are doing nothing more than teaching a flawed system well.  In other words, they're doing a really good job of teaching people crap.  Why?  Because the system is broken.  

This isn't a point of debate.  It's just common sense.  Back to the math analogy I used.  If the material I'm teaching is 2+1=4, the material is flawed.  The only difference between a good instructor and a bad one is that the good instructor will teach that more effectively... doing an even better job of spreading the misinformation.  And the only difference a good student will make is that he or she will internalize it faster... and likely be more resistant to learning the correct way. 

Ultimately, I'm not saying that there is no difference between a good student and a bad one, or a good instructor and a bad one.  I'm not suggesting that this doesn't make a difference.  What I'm saying is simply that at some point we have to look at what we're teaching and learning and gauge whether it's actually meeting our needs.  Does it work?  Is the system flawed?  Are we churning out more bad product than good?  And if so, why?  If the problems are chronic, then it's not the artists; it's the art that is the issue.

And conversely, back to the BJJ example, it's systems and processes in place within the art that maintain consistent standards.  Here again, it's the art; not the artist.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 19, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Good post and since MMA stated getting bigger we have had a problem with BJJ McDojos here, any Brazilian over here with a little knowledge of BJJ seems to have cashed in it now, where we used to have very few black belts and they took years to earn we are seeing more and more BB being awarded after a couple of years now. Thse BB of course are then openng their own places to make money.
> People see a cash flow not students, they see a business not a martial arts heritage, there's nothing wrong in earning money from martial arts as long as there's value for money.


 
You can see watering down of standards here too Tez. Once the money starts flowing things do indeed seem to change. I was rolling just the other week with a BJJ school owner here in Vegas. (a good friend) He talked about things being tight right now do to the economy and more. The economy of course being the major issue. (bad unemployment figures) Still when looking around almost all of what I would call a McDojo that I have seen locally now has grappling instructors. (or crappling if you prefer when you see them) The general public cannot differentiate so they go with the school that is closest to them with the nicest facility and the the best salesman. In general those are the McDojo's! That is what they do really well! So my friend has stiff competition with them as they co-opt what he does with a worse package but hey people do not know that! (read the whole post here: *The Instinctive Edge*)  With the advent of MMA you are seeing MMA schools pop up everywhere with people that are really unqualified doing the teaching. That is the reality of popularity. When Jeet Kune Do or Ninjutsu was the thing it happened there too and so on and so on! I agree with BJJ Steve in that the competition factor that he is talking about helps but.... I have seen many McDojo's that offer in house tournaments or regionalize, state or even national with the ATA. Parents and the general public have no idea that it is not a big tournament or that the competition is mediocre at best because they have not knowledge to compare it with. They just see there kid out there with some others and competing. So when cash and making a living becomes the norm then quite often quality suffers. Now I am not saying that cash or a school making money is bad. It's just when someone relies heavily on it to feed their family that things change. Then it is always about making a buck and how to optimize that situation! Just my 02.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 19, 2010)

One exemplary thing about BJJ is the belt system.  Simply no kid blackbelts at all until they are 16 or 18 depending on the instructor.  That in and of itself does a lot to maintain quality!


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## Steve (Aug 19, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> You can see watering down of standards here too Tez. Once the money starts flowing things do indeed seem to change. I was rolling just the other week with a BJJ school owner here in Vegas. (a good friend) He talked about things being tight right now do to the economy and more. The economy of course being the major issue. (bad unemployment figures) Still when looking around almost all of what I would call a McDojo that I have seen locally now has grappling instructors. (or crappling if you prefer when you see them) The general public cannot differentiate so they go with the school that is closest to them with the nicest facility and the the best salesman. In general those are the McDojo's! That is what they do really well! So my friend has stiff competition with them as they co-opt what he does with a worse package but hey people do not know that! (read the whole post here: *The Instinctive Edge*) With the advent of MMA you are seeing MMA schools pop up everywhere with people that are really unqualified doing the teaching. That is the reality of popularity. When Jeet Kune Do or Ninjutsu was the thing it happened there too and so on and so on! I agree with BJJ Steve in that the competition factor that he is talking about helps but.... *I have seen many McDojo's that offer in house tournaments or regionalize, state or even national with the ATA*. Parents and the general public have no idea that it is not a big tournament or that the competition is mediocre at best because they have not knowledge to compare it with. They just see there kid out there with some others and competing. So when cash and making a living becomes the norm then quite often quality suffers. Now I am not saying that cash or a school making money is bad. It's just when someone relies heavily on it to feed their family that things change. Then it is always about making a buck and how to optimize that situation! Just my 02.


That should be a huge red flag.  There's a difference between tune up, in house tourneys which are pretty common and tournaments held internally to the exclusion of larger, open, inter-school competition.  Out of 20 or so local BJJ/Grappling schools, I'm aware of only one that does this.   In my estimation, that's pretty good.  I hope it stays that way.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 19, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> That should be a huge red flag. There's a difference between tune up, in house tourneys which are pretty common and tournaments held internally to the exclusion of larger, open, inter-school competition. Out of 20 or so local BJJ/Grappling schools, I'm aware of only one that does this. In my estimation, that's pretty good. I hope it stays that way.


 
Me too Steve!!!!


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## MJS (Aug 19, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Hey, sorry, MJS. I missed this response. I see your point, but it's not quite where I'm going. What I'm suggesting is that BJJ has mechanisms within the art that discourage deviation from the standard. It's very difficult for a BJJ or submission grappling school to operate in a vacuum. There's an expectation that at least some of the students at every school will compete, and it's these students competing at every level from white to black that keeps belt standards consistent. It's not about higher or lower standards, it's consistent standards across the board.


 
No problem.   I think this is the problem though, and you just hit the nail on the head, with what you said about BJJ.  I would wager a bet and say that there are many arts out there that do deviate, thus leading to issues.  Now, some deviation is ok, IMO, because afterall, we're not robots.  But, when the deviation starts seriously taking away from the principles, concepts, ideas, etc., from the art, well, IMO, I think thats a problem.



> My point is that this is systemic. It's institutional. While anyone can allege that BJJ McDojos are popping up everywhere, I have seen no evidence that this is any kind of a real problem. If the ruleset changes significantly, such as what's happened in Judo, there might be problems in the future. But that's a hypothetical at this point. Just to be very, very clear. I'm not suggesting that BJJ is immune to these issues. I'm only saying that right now, there are internal mechanisms in place that discourage these issues. I hope they continue to work. Ultimately, if a student walks into a BJJ school and trains at least 3 times each week, and the instructor is an actual brown or black belt in BJJ, chances are very, very good that this person will learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. REgardless of aptitude or physical conditioning, this person can't help but get better at BJJ. Just by virtue of being on the mat, sparring with upper belts, it's impossible to not get better.


 
Nor have I, seen BJJ mcdojos.  As I said above, I think this is where alot of the issues come from.



> On the other hand, you have arts like the Bujinkan, WC, TKD and even some branches of Karate, where folks within the art are lamenting the current state of the art.


 
Agreed.



> So, back to your point. You're talking about instructors. I'm saying that good instructors in a broken system are doing nothing more than teaching a flawed system well. In other words, they're doing a really good job of teaching people crap. Why? Because the system is broken.
> 
> This isn't a point of debate. It's just common sense. Back to the math analogy I used. If the material I'm teaching is 2+1=4, the material is flawed. The only difference between a good instructor and a bad one is that the good instructor will teach that more effectively... doing an even better job of spreading the misinformation. And the only difference a good student will make is that he or she will internalize it faster... and likely be more resistant to learning the correct way.
> 
> ...


 
Points taken.   I think there are times though, that some teachers do see flaws, and make changes, thus often making them the 'black sheep' of that art.  Ex: There are things that I think are flawed in the Kenpo system. I mention this, only to be told that there are no flaws in the system, but instead the flaw lies with MY Kenpo.  Now, that may be the case, however, when I talk to others and they echo my thoughts, well, that tells me something.  The difference between me and alot of Kenpo people, is that I'm not in fear that the Kenpo Gods will strike me down. LOL.  I think where the problem lies, is that some people are afraid to admit certain things suck. LOL.  

I guess thats why I said its the person, not the art.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 19, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> One exemplary thing about BJJ is the belt system. Simply no kid blackbelts at all until they are 16 or 18 depending on the instructor. That in and of itself does a lot to maintain quality!


 
Ahh brings back memories of my old days in Japanese Jujutsu.... (Early 70s)... you could not get a black belt until you were 18 back then.

Sadly, this may translate to wait 30 years and you will be seeing 10 year old BJJ black belts

But I will admit right here although I am not a big fan of BJJ for myself I do respect what I see as it applies to training and integrity in, what use to be all but now is, most schools in my area.


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## MJS (Aug 19, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> One exemplary thing about BJJ is the belt system. Simply no kid blackbelts at all until they are 16 or 18 depending on the instructor. That in and of itself does a lot to maintain quality!


 
QFT!!!  And this is one of the many things I like about BJJ!!!  I could only wish other arts would follow these principles.  Funny....people cry and moan if they walk into a TKD school and dont get a BB after 2yrs, but people seem to be perfectly cool with the fact that they could wait 10 or so years before reaching BB in BJJ.


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## MJS (Aug 19, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Ahh brings back memories of my old days in Japanese Jujutsu.... (Early 70s)... you could not get a black belt until you were 18 back then.
> 
> Sadly, this may translate to wait 30 years and you will be seeing 10 year old BJJ black belts
> 
> But I will admit right here although I am not a big fan of BJJ for myself but I do respect what I see as it applies to training and integrity in, what use to be all but now is, most schools in my area.



That, IMHO, will be a very sad day, if that were to happen.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 19, 2010)

MJS said:


> That, IMHO, will be a very sad day, if that were to happen.


 
Agreed

Because I'm with you



MJS said:


> I could only wish other arts would follow these principles. Funny....people cry and moan if they walk into a TKD school and dont get a BB after 2yrs, but people seem to be perfectly cool with the fact that they could wait 10 or so years before reaching BB in BJJ.


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## Steve (Aug 19, 2010)

MJS said:


> Points taken.  *I think there are times though, that some teachers do see flaws, and make changes, thus often making them the 'black sheep' of that art.* Ex: There are things that I think are flawed in the Kenpo system. I mention this, only to be told that there are no flaws in the system, but instead the flaw lies with MY Kenpo. Now, that may be the case, however, when I talk to others and they echo my thoughts, well, that tells me something. The difference between me and alot of Kenpo people, is that I'm not in fear that the Kenpo Gods will strike me down. LOL. I think where the problem lies, is that some people are afraid to admit certain things suck. LOL.
> 
> I guess thats why I said its the person, not the art.


MJS, this is very interesting for me, because we are both clearly seeing the same things, but drawing different conclusions. Personally, I agree with you that individuals see flaws, make changes and are sometimes made the "black sheep" by the group. But where you see the 'artist' as the focal point, breaking away, I see the "art" exerting pressure on the individual to maintain the status quo (for good or ill). 

In other words, if an individual starts deviating from the working norm, he's going to be pressured to fall back in line by the group. This can be good, if the norm is working. Of course, if the norm isn't working, this is bad. But in both cases, we're talking about a group as opposed to an individual. Once again, art over artist.


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## Stac3y (Aug 19, 2010)

My school doesn't give kids a "real" black belt; only a junior black belt. It takes 5-6 years. They then have to start over at yellow belt in the adult program to get the real deal. No one under 16 is allowed to get an adult black belt. In case you're wondering, junior black belts look different in addition to having a different meaning and different requirements. They are black with a wide white stripe through them.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 19, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> My school doesn't give kids a "real" black belt; only a junior black belt. It takes 5-6 years. They then have to start over at yellow belt in the adult program to get the real deal. No one under 16 is allowed to get an adult black belt. In case you're wondering, junior black belts look different in addition to having a different meaning and different requirements. They are black with a wide white stripe through them.


Just like most tkd schools. A child cant get a real black belt until 16-18. Prior to that they basically get a 'probationary' black belt which even looks different. I would bet my house that bjj will have child black belts within the next decade. I already know of bjj schools where you will get a black belt very quickly. As long as bjj stays "popular" then its only a matter of time.


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## Steve (Aug 20, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Just like most tkd schools. A child cant get a real black belt until 16-18. Prior to that they basically get a 'probationary' black belt which even looks different. I would bet my house that bjj will have child black belts within the next decade. I already know of bjj schools where you will get a black belt very quickly. As long as bjj stays "popular" then its only a matter of time.


You keep saying that.  What schools are these where you can get a BJJ black belt very quickly?  Most of the BJJ black belts in Australia are John Will's current and former students.  John Will is one of the "Dirty Dozen," the first 12 non-brazilian black belts, training directly with the Machado brothers.  Being a John Will black belt is a pretty big deal. 

Several others I'm aware of are Gracie Barra affiliates, including schools in Sydney, Perth and Blacktown.  Gracie Barra has very consistent standards throughout the world.  The organization as a whole is well represented at every level of competition.

I'm really curious which specific schools you think are problematic.


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## DinoSmurfy (Aug 20, 2010)

I think it's just human nature.  We want to compete and end up on top.  After all, we spent years training for our art.  Some people feel better knowing that they spent all those years training for the greatest MA.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Just like most tkd schools. A child cant get a real black belt until 16-18. Prior to that they basically get a 'probationary' black belt which even looks different. I would bet my house that bjj will have child black belts within the next decade. I already know of bjj schools where you will get a black belt very quickly. As long as bjj stays "popular" then its only a matter of time.


 Hey Ralph.  I just thought I'd follow up on this once.  If you've got some specific names of schools, you can PM me or shoot me an email if you prefer not to mention them on the board.  I can pretty easily verify the reputation, and if you're right I'll definitely say so.  

I just want to follow up and post about it one way or another because you're alleging that the standards in BJJ are detiorating rapidly and I haven't seen any evidence of this.  I can't in good conscience let this non-specific allegation just go unchallenged.  That would imply that I agree, and I don't.  

I'm not going to hound you about this.  I'll accept that if you don't have any further comment, that we can let this presumption that standards are rapidly slipping be put to rest.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 22, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Hey Ralph.  I just thought I'd follow up on this once.  If you've got some specific names of schools, you can PM me or shoot me an email if you prefer not to mention them on the board.  I can pretty easily verify the reputation, and if you're right I'll definitely say so.
> 
> I just want to follow up and post about it one way or another because you're alleging that the standards in BJJ are detiorating rapidly and I haven't seen any evidence of this.  I can't in good conscience let this non-specific allegation just go unchallenged.  That would imply that I agree, and I don't.
> 
> I'm not going to hound you about this.  I'll accept that if you don't have any further comment, that we can let this presumption that standards are rapidly slipping be put to rest.


I would definetely pm you any clubs I hear of as I dont want to de-fame anyone over the net. I have a couple of mates who do bjj at reputable schools and they are always whinging about the new schools opening in our area and the lowered standards and ease to get a black belt. When I next speak with them I will get the details and let you know. From what they have told me the guys instructing at these clubs have no sort of lineage to 'real' bjj and are just using the name to get students. Im certainly not bagging out bjj, if taught correctly it appears to be a good system, particularly when mixed with a stand up art, but popularity has a tendancy to affect martial arts in a negative way.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 23, 2010)

:duh: OOPS, I posted this in the wrong thread....

Just move along there is nothing to see here


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