# New belt for Second Dan?



## bondad (Apr 6, 2011)

I was talking to a few students before class last week about their second Dan belts.  I asked if it was their first Dan belt with two gold bars added.  They said no, they were given a new belt when they received their second Dan. But they commented that our Sabonim's belt (fifth Dan) is his original first Dan belt that he has added gold bars to over the years as he went up in rank.

Some of these students had grown since receiving their first Dan so it made sense that received a new belt.  When my time comes, I'm thinking of asking my Sabonim if I can do as he has done and add bars to my original belt.

What are your thoughts on either approach?


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## terryl965 (Apr 6, 2011)

Seriously I have just a plain Black Belt and it has been with me for year, funny how it works fine just like that. Stripes are for those that have to have instant recognition. Sorry but that is how I feel about the subject.


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## IcemanSK (Apr 6, 2011)

Since rank stripes on the belt are a part of your school, I'd ask your instructor if you can do the same thing that he did. If you want to do the same thing he did, it's worth asking.


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## bondad (Apr 6, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Seriously I have just a plain Black Belt and it has been with me for year, funny how it works fine just like that. Stripes are for those that have to have instant recognition. Sorry but that is how I feel about the subject.


 
Well one of the rules in our school is we line up by rank.  It could be difficult to distinguish black belt ranks if the bars were not on the belts.  In time everyone knows but to a new student it could be confusing.  Our blackbelt ranks have grown from about five to about 20 in the six years I have been attending.  

But don't worry, I got the insult so you're good...Now you can go feel better about yourself.


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## Manny (Apr 6, 2011)

I just love my first black belt, it has honest use but sadly does not fit me anymore (the way I like it, this is two wraps around my waist) so for my second dan I ordered a plain satin black belt from eosin panther.

In my dojang we can embroid our belt with our names and the name of or organization but can not put bars on the belt, my sambonims is 7th degree black belt and does not use bars on his belt, he says we don't need the bars.

If you wish to keep ypour black belt with you for some time then ad the bars it will need, I wish my original black belt still fits me but time has pased (24 years) and my belly has grow a little.

Manny


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## bondad (Apr 6, 2011)

Manny said:


> I just love my first black belt, it has honest use but sadly does not fit me anymore (the way I like it, this is two wraps around my waist) so for my second dan I ordered a plain satin black belt from eosin panther.
> 
> In my dojang we can embroid our belt with our names and the name of or organization but can not put bars on the belt, my sambonims is 7th degree black belt and does not use bars on his belt, he says we don't need the bars.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for your insight Manny.  I appreciate it.


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## puunui (Apr 6, 2011)

bondad said:


> Well one of the rules in our school is we line up by rank.  It could be difficult to distinguish black belt ranks if the bars were not on the belts.  In time everyone knows but to a new student it could be confusing.




It wouldn't be confusing because the new student would be a white belt and would line up in the back. If it is a new student who is a dan holder, the proper position for that new dan holder would either be as the last black belt, or even the last student after the white belts. The head instructor would then put the new black belt student where he felt the new student belonged in terms of seniority.


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## terryl965 (Apr 6, 2011)

bondad said:


> Well one of the rules in our school is we line up by rank. It could be difficult to distinguish black belt ranks if the bars were not on the belts. In time everyone knows but to a new student it could be confusing. Our blackbelt ranks have grown from about five to about 20 in the six years I have been attending.
> 
> But don't worry, I got the insult so you're good...Now you can go feel better about yourself.


 
You ask a question on a chat line and I responded to your question, sorry Ido not believe in stripes on belts inside of my dojaang. We know who lines up where and have been doing it this way for twenty something years and it works for us. Now at competition or formal testing we have belts with stripes, but you ask about a everyday belt ot at least I took it that way. Sorry if you fely insulted by my comment, just the way I am.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 7, 2011)

puunui said:


> It wouldn't be confusing because the new student would be a white belt and would line up in the back. If it is a new student who is a dan holder, the proper position for that new dan holder would either be as the last black belt, or even the last student after the white belts. The head instructor would then put the new black belt student where he felt the new student belonged in terms of seniority.


What about in large clubs? we have over 4000 students and have club camps, club seminars, black belt classes, invite-only classes and we are always lining up in order of rank and are encouraged to ask our seniors for advice. That gets a bit difficult without stripes. I went to a club training camp 2 weeks ago and there were many black belts there I had never seen in my life. I needed some advice on my form at one point and I could easily pick out which other guys there were a higher rank so I could ask for some help. I can understand in small clubs where everyone knows everyone else but in large organisations its much easier if you can quickly identify someone's rank.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 7, 2011)

bondad said:


> I was talking to a few students before class last week about their second Dan belts.  I asked if it was their first Dan belt with two gold bars added.  They said no, they were given a new belt when they received their second Dan. But they commented that our Sabonim's belt (fifth Dan) is his original first Dan belt that he has added gold bars to over the years as he went up in rank.
> 
> Some of these students had grown since receiving their first Dan so it made sense that received a new belt.  When my time comes, I'm thinking of asking my Sabonim if I can do as he has done and add bars to my original belt.
> 
> What are your thoughts on either approach?


Most black belts where I train keep the same belt. Each time they are promoted they rip off the old stripes and put new ones on, so all the stripes look the same. Only a few of the black belts have their dans embroided on, most use iron-on darn which lasts for years but can be easily removed when its to to re-dan.


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## andyjeffries (Apr 7, 2011)

bondad said:


> Some of these students had grown since receiving their first Dan so it made sense that received a new belt.  When my time comes, I'm thinking of asking my Sabonim if I can do as he has done and add bars to my original belt.



This has been kind of discussed recently, but personally I prefer a fairly new belt.  I don't like my belt to look like I've had it a million years and spent a lot of that time rubbing up against brick walls.

So personally, I would go with a new belt.

We have a fair bit of embroidery on ours including our name and our club's name in English and Korean, logos and, yes, we have dan bars (and I like our belts).


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## poollshark (Apr 7, 2011)

bondad said:


> I was talking to a few students before class last week about their second Dan belts.  I asked if it was their first Dan belt with two gold bars added.  They said no, they were given a new belt when they received their second Dan. But they commented that our Sabonim's belt (fifth Dan) is his original first Dan belt that he has added gold bars to over the years as he went up in rank.
> 
> Some of these students had grown since receiving their first Dan so it made sense that received a new belt.  When my time comes, I'm thinking of asking my Sabonim if I can do as he has done and add bars to my original belt.
> 
> What are your thoughts on either approach?



I'd never given any real thought to this till I read your post, where I train a new belt is awarded at each Dan. I don't see any problem with you respectfully asking if you can follow your teachers lead. 



terryl965 said:


> Seriously I have just a plain Black Belt and it has been with me for year, funny how it works fine just like that. Stripes are for those that have to have instant recognition. Sorry but that is how I feel about the subject.





terryl965 said:


> You ask a question on a chat line and I responded to your question, sorry Ido not believe in stripes on belts inside of my dojaang. We know who lines up where and have been doing it this way for twenty something years and it works for us. Now at competition or formal testing we have belts with stripes, but you ask about a everyday belt ot at least I took it that way. Sorry if you fely insulted by my comment, just the way I am.



Terry, IMHO your comment came across as condescending. We don't tell our teachers how to run their school or how to display rank, do we? 

Respect for, or at the very least tolerance of others traditions is something we should all have. Live and let live brother.

George


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## terryl965 (Apr 7, 2011)

poollshark said:


> I'd never given any real thought to this till I read your post, where I train a new belt is awarded at each Dan. I don't see any problem with you respectfully asking if you can follow your teachers lead.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Well since both of you are new to the forum I would have to dis-agree with both of you, as far as listening since I runmy school with my GM permission the way I would like it is all good. As far as what he ask I gave my opinion about stripe beltsinside a dojaang for working out. I nor does both of my GM wears abelt with stripes on them for training, maybe it is just us but doubtful since alotof schools I go to does the same. If it came a croos condescending than I am sorry, it was meant to come a cross that this is what we do. Heck I even said this is the way I believe it should be done as in my belief. So in closing people will have there opinion about everything and will give there opinion on any subject that has been posted an a forum. I have had people be upset, mad and please over comments it is part of the board, respect I have for all in the arts not just mine and that goes all the way from a white belt with one day to a BB that has forty years or more.

Maybe next time I will put in qoutes just my way or my opinion so a few does not get upset over commits on a chatline.:asian:


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## poollshark (Apr 7, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Well since both of you are new to the forum I would have to dis-agree with both of you,
> 
> *You're going to disagree with us because we're new to the forum...your condescend-fu is strong* *sir*
> 
> ...



I speak for no one but myself here, I am new to posting on MT but I am no rookie when it comes to internet message boards. I have been posting since the 90's back in the usenet days. 
You misunderstand my disagreement with you as anger, I assure you there is nothing you could write here that would make me upset. I have much thicker skin than that.

George


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 7, 2011)

bondad said:


> I was talking to a few students before class last week about their second Dan belts. I asked if it was their first Dan belt with two gold bars added. They said no, they were given a new belt when they received their second Dan. But they commented that our Sabonim's belt (fifth Dan) is his original first Dan belt that he has added gold bars to over the years as he went up in rank.
> 
> Some of these students had grown since receiving their first Dan so it made sense that received a new belt. When my time comes, I'm thinking of asking my Sabonim if I can do as he has done and add bars to my original belt.
> 
> What are your thoughts on either approach?


I am not personally in favor of stripes on the belt.  However, its just a belt.  If the school uses belts with stripes then fine.  Whether you receive a new stripe to attach to the belt or a new belt entirely is unimportant.  

At KMA where I have trained for many years, KJN Kim issues a new belt with the appropriate quanitity of stripes.  When I began instructing kumdo and hapkido for him, I received belt that had my name at one end and our kumdo and HKD association names on the other and no stripes.  

If I'm running or training hapkido, that is the belt that I wear.
If I'm in taekwondo class, I wear my taekwondo belt with two stripes.
If I'm running or training kumdo, we don't wear a belt because the uniform is a hakama and uwagi.

Regarding the comment about a lack of stripes making it confusing at line up time, I suspect that the yudanja at any school know who is what rank and line up accordingly.  Yudanja are generally mature enough to do this with or without stripes.  Colored belts will line up according to color.  

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 7, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> This has been kind of discussed recently, but personally I prefer a fairly new belt. I don't like my belt to look like I've had it a million years and spent a lot of that time rubbing up against brick walls.


But if it were blue jeans, you could pay *extra* for that look!

Daniel


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## sfs982000 (Apr 7, 2011)

bondad said:


> I was talking to a few students before class last week about their second Dan belts. I asked if it was their first Dan belt with two gold bars added. They said no, they were given a new belt when they received their second Dan. But they commented that our Sabonim's belt (fifth Dan) is his original first Dan belt that he has added gold bars to over the years as he went up in rank.
> 
> Some of these students had grown since receiving their first Dan so it made sense that received a new belt. When my time comes, I'm thinking of asking my Sabonim if I can do as he has done and add bars to my original belt.
> 
> What are your thoughts on either approach?


 
Where I currently train (ATA school) those that are part of the leadership/instructor trainee team get very nice embroidered belts for each dan rank.  If you are not part of the leadership/instructor team you get a plain black belt.  Years ago when I trained in Shotokan our instructors wore plain black belts.  My personal thoughts are for day to day wear the plain black belt is just fine.  I can see where in some schools if you have a number of black belts that the dan bars would be beneficial.  Most of the black belts where I currently train are 1st or 2nd dan, the chief instructor is a 5th dan.


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## miguksaram (Apr 7, 2011)

Personal thoughts is that a black belt is a black belt and I don't need  the stripes on it to remind me of my place in the martial art world.  At  our school we have no stripes.  When we line up it is by who gets to  the line first.  Personally I will move down the line and allow seniors  to be placed to my left (higher position).  However, that is just me.   Overall it doesn't make a difference because we all sweat and bleed the  same regardless of the number of stripes on the belt.

Now if your school hands out belts with stripes...cool.  I would  recommend getting the new belt with the stripes and using it for  decoration and then ask if you can get your current belt embroidered  with the correct amount of stripes.  

To the OP...Terry was not trying to insult you.  Just injecting his  overall opinion on the matter.  So, chill out and grow some thick skin.

To Terry...While I respect your overall opinion, I don't think the part about what you feel stripes represent was  warranted as it had nothing to do with the OP's original question on which approach to take.  So I can see where he might get a little annoyed with the input.  

So the only fair way to decide this is that Terry must buy the first round.


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## chrispillertkd (Apr 7, 2011)

bondad said:


> I was talking to a few students before class last week about their second Dan belts. I asked if it was their first Dan belt with two gold bars added. They said no, they were given a new belt when they received their second Dan. But they commented that our Sabonim's belt (fifth Dan) is his original first Dan belt that he has added gold bars to over the years as he went up in rank.
> 
> Some of these students had grown since receiving their first Dan so it made sense that received a new belt. When my time comes, I'm thinking of asking my Sabonim if I can do as he has done and add bars to my original belt.
> 
> What are your thoughts on either approach?


 
We get new belts with each dan level. I can see wanting to keep your old belt, I suppose. I have certainly kept all of mine. But when I train in class I use my current belt which has Roman Numerals on the ends denoting my rank. 

I've seen people use their old belts and add rank stripes as they advance in rank. I don't care for that practice. There is a certain aesthetic quality to a well worn belt, just like there is to many things that have been handled for years and years and have gotten a well used look to them. There is a certain beauty in imperfection, after all. But adding rank stripes to an old belt kind of works counter to that since you're adding something new to the belt. 

IMO, it would be different if you were just wearing a belt that had no embroidery on it (except for maybe your name) or rank insignia. Then wear it to your heart's content. Better to take away (through training) than add (through new rank stripes), I think.

YMMV

Pax,

Chris


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## terryl965 (Apr 7, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Personal thoughts is that a black belt is a black belt and I don't need the stripes on it to remind me of my place in the martial art world. At our school we have no stripes. When we line up it is by who gets to the line first. Personally I will move down the line and allow seniors to be placed to my left (higher position). However, that is just me. Overall it doesn't make a difference because we all sweat and bleed the same regardless of the number of stripes on the belt.
> 
> Now if your school hands out belts with stripes...cool. I would recommend getting the new belt with the stripes and using it for decoration and then ask if you can get your current belt embroidered with the correct amount of stripes.
> 
> ...


 
Point well taken and believe me after going back and reading my first post I can see where it might have been taken the wrong way. I was just inputing my opinion on the matter and yes when we meet the first round is on me.


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## puunui (Apr 7, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Regarding the comment about a lack of stripes making it confusing at line up time, I suspect that the yudanja at any school know who is what rank and line up accordingly.  Yudanja are generally mature enough to do this with or without stripes.  Colored belts will line up according to color.




None of my teachers ever had stripes on their belts and we had no problems lining up.  I also think putting stripes on one's belt takes away the opportunity to work on our noonchi, our perception abilities. 

However, more and more I do see schools adopting some sort of stripe or recognition system for dan holders. Some use stripes, others use different color thread for different dan ranks, and others use a combination of the two. I asked one of my commercial instructor friends why he chose to do that, and he said distinguishing between the dan ranks gave people more incentive to stay longer/pay more money. It was basically a marketing thing for him, a customer driven innovation, because his students like it, even though he didn't particularly care for it. But you have to do what you have to do when running a commercial school. 

Of course, he explained it differently to the students, but that was his real reason for adopting that stripe system. He got the idea from a martial arts business seminar that he attended, the principle being that people will do all sorts of crazy things and pay big money for visible trinkets that make them feel special.


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## shesulsa (Apr 7, 2011)

@Terry - you expressed an opinion.  There's not necessarily anything wrong with that - you've apologized already. Stop feeling bad about it.


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## terryl965 (Apr 7, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> @Terry - you expressed an opinion. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that - you've apologized already. Stop feeling bad about it.


 Thanks Shesulsa and I appreciate it, I am trying to be a better person this year for my son's. You know be the bigger person and apologies and stuff. :asian:


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 8, 2011)

bondad said:


> .............. I'm thinking of asking my Sabonim if I can do as he has done and add bars to my original belt.
> 
> What are your thoughts on either approach?


 
To the original poster. 

Did you ask? 

What was the answer?

That is the only anwer that matters.


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## Manny (Apr 8, 2011)

Just for the record and in my humble opinion if I were runing a dojang/dojo and I was the owner or the master or the sambonim/sensei I would use the plain vanilla black belt, I eman no strips, no bars and no embroided. Just a white gi or dobok with a black belt.

What I really use as the semsei/sambonim will be a white open top gi with the black lapel and black pants because I like the combo and to make clear who is the sensei amoung the black belt students who must wear white dobok all (studentes) with the v colar the same collor of the belt or a white gi.

Offcourse just one patch (teh dojang patch) in the left side of the uniform.

I am a litte square about uniforms (doboks or gis).

Manny


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 8, 2011)

Manny said:


> Offcourse just one patch (teh dojang patch) in the left side of the uniform.


How about a Korean flag on the left sleeve and your country's flag on the right?

Daniel


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## andyjeffries (Apr 8, 2011)

Manny said:


> What I really use as the semsei/sambonim will be a white open top gi with the black lapel and black pants because I like the combo and to make clear who is the sensei amoung the black belt students who must wear white dobok all (studentes) with the v colar the same collor of the belt or a white gi.



So you don't agree with rank bars on belts, but you want a different uniform to mark you out as special among the black belts?  Sounds a bit hypocritical...  All black belts are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Why not make everyone (you included) wear all white, students will know who is the instructor because you're the one teaching them?

Personally I'm OK with dan bars (I have them as do all bar one of our black belts) but it seems weird to say you're against them and then still want some differentiator.


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## puunui (Apr 8, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> How about a Korean flag on the left sleeve and your country's flag on the right?




I don't do that.


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## shesulsa (Apr 8, 2011)

Perhaps a plain black belt keeps one humble. Perhaps decorations on it should be worn with pride.

Some people wear pink uniforms and cammo belts.

What is with the judgementalism on  belt stripes?  Why do you care???   

On flags: we used to have those on the uniform as well until we found out you're not supposed to wear the American flag on a uniform.  So we took them both off.  Flags are for the wall.


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## puunui (Apr 8, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> On flags: we used to have those on the uniform as well until we found out you're not supposed to wear the American flag on a uniform.  So we took them both off.  Flags are for the wall.




How come you aren't supposed to wear the American flag on your uniform? I know American soldiers wear the American flag on their uniform. Also I know many national teams wear their flag on their left breast area.


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## shesulsa (Apr 8, 2011)

puunui said:


> How come you aren't supposed to wear the American flag on your uniform? I know American soldiers wear the American flag on their uniform. Also I know many national teams wear their flag on their left breast area.



Excuse me - I should have been clearer - it is not to be worn on an athletic uniform or costume. It's part of the flag code.

Wiki on the flag code.



> The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform,  except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military  personnel, firefighters, police officers, and members of patriotic  organizations.



You can find the same info on the American Legion website and other places where flag etiquette is discussed.


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## Indie12 (Apr 8, 2011)

I personally are not fond of Belts with stripes, or even embroided text. I have a simple plain black belt (first dan). In my personal opinion, I believe a new belt should be issued, but that's not always the case in individual systems, instructors, or federations...


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## Indie12 (Apr 8, 2011)

puunui said:


> How come you aren't supposed to wear the American flag on your uniform? I know American soldiers wear the American flag on their uniform. Also I know many national teams wear their flag on their left breast area.


 
From my understanding you can wear the American Flag on your uniform as long as it's on the right arm an inch from the shoulder line, and with the opposite (Martial Art system-nationality flag) on your left arm. Has that changed?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 8, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't do that.


No, but a lot of schools do.  I have no opinion on it one way or the other.

Daniel


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## shesulsa (Apr 8, 2011)

Indie12 said:


> From my understanding you can wear the American Flag on your uniform as long as it's on the right arm an inch from the shoulder line, and with the opposite (Martial Art system-nationality flag) on your left arm. Has that changed?



The American flag code says you are not to wear one on an athletic uniform.


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## Indie12 (Apr 8, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> The American flag code says you are not to wear one on an athletic uniform.


 
Well if that's the case then I've seen pleanty of Athletic uniforms with the American Flag on it!

Also bare in mind that not all Martial Arts are Sports, so therefore wearing the American Flag on the uniform is a symbol of Patriotism, and honor as an American.


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## puunui (Apr 8, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> The American flag code says you are not to wear one on an athletic uniform.




Good to know.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 8, 2011)

Indie12 said:


> Well if that's the case then I've seen pleanty of Athletic uniforms with the American Flag on it!


Plenty of people disregard a variety of traffic laws on a regular basis as well.  Given that most are ignorant of this aspect of the flag code (I was until Shesulsa's post), it is not surprising.



Indie12 said:


> Also bare in mind that not all Martial Arts are Sports, so therefore wearing the American Flag on the uniform is a symbol of Patriotism, and honor as an American.


Given that the word sports essentially means pastime, yes, they are pretty much all sports unless you are practicing them in the context of military service.

From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sport:
*sport* (spôrt, sp
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





rt) 
_n._ *1. **a. *Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
*b. *A particular form of this activity.

*2. *An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
*3. *An active pastime; recreation.


Martial arts, even those without a competitive element, adhere to all of the above. 

Daniel


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## andyjeffries (Apr 8, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> The American flag code says you are not to wear one on an athletic uniform.



Oh my great goodness, it also advocates flag burning!!!!



> When a flag is so tattered that it can no longer serve as a symbol of the United States, it should be destroyed in a dignified manner, preferably by burning.



Seriously, that's why you don't wear a flag on your sleeve?  A law that the supreme court has ruled would be a 1st amendment breach to uphold.

I know you USers are very protective of your flag, but seriously, that's just patriotic pride having your flag on your uniform...


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 8, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Please elaborate on how a baby frst dan who has been training perhaps 4 years is equal to a 9th dan who has been training 40 years.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 8, 2011)

Please note the wearing of a Flag ptch is acceptable for a "Patriotic Organization". There is no definition of a "Patriotic Organization" so if you consider your MA org. or any org for that matter to be patriotic the exception applies.

I think this part of the flag code has been revised over time.


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## Manny (Apr 8, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> So you don't agree with rank bars on belts, but you want a different uniform to mark you out as special among the black belts?  Sounds a bit hypocritical...  All black belts are equal, but some are more equal than others.
> 
> Why not make everyone (you included) wear all white, students will know who is the instructor because you're the one teaching them?
> 
> Personally I'm OK with dan bars (I have them as do all bar one of our black belts) but it seems weird to say you're against them and then still want some differentiator.



Well if that's your opinion I will respect it. The fact is I really like the white jacket/black pants combo and this is only my taste, and for the record is not that I don't like the rank bars, no sir, but it's my taste these days a plan black belt. You are ok with dan bars I am glad for you.

Than you for your reply.

Manny


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 8, 2011)

Where do you draw the line? If having rank stripes is 'egotistical' or showing off, why wear a black belt at all? Why not just train in a tracksuit with no belt, why even own a black belt? As I said earlier, we had a training camp a couple of weeks ago, there were literally hundreds of black belts all together training on the beach, I regularly asked seniors for advice, if everyone was just in a plain black belt it would have been mayhem. Being able to easily identify someone of a higher/lower rank made things much easier.


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## puunui (Apr 8, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> Please elaborate on how a baby first dan who has been training perhaps 4 years is equal to a 9th dan who has been training 40 years.




On MT they would be.


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## puunui (Apr 8, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> Please note the wearing of a Flag ptch is acceptable for a "Patriotic Organization". There is no definition of a "Patriotic Organization" so if you consider your MA org. or any org for that matter to be patriotic the exception applies.




Also, there is probably some 1st Amendment free speech protections as well. I vaguely remember reading a flag burning case and I want to say a flag clothing case way back in the day. You probably read the same cases.


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## shesulsa (Apr 8, 2011)

puunui said:


> On MT they would be.



Explain, please.


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## puunui (Apr 8, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> Explain, please.




Do you really need an explanation?


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## shesulsa (Apr 8, 2011)

puunui said:


> Do you really need an explanation?



I'm curious if you're complaining about the board itself or internet jockies in general.


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## puunui (Apr 8, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> I'm curious if you're complaining about the board itself or internet jockies in general.




I don't think the forum itself is the issue. Personally I don't write or say anything on here that I wouldn't say directly to a person's face. I also think some of the others really don't follow that same standard. I also think that a lot of people feel that it is appropriate to disregard seniority when making comments, which is why I said that the baby 1st Dan with four years of training is the equal of the 40 year 9th Dan on MT. Not just on MT, but in all of the big public organizations that I am affiliated with, Kukkiwon, USAT, WTF, etc., there are a lot of juniors who do not want hear or consider what their seniors have to say, especially if that senior has a viewpoint that is different from their own. 

I have no doubt that those juniors will come to realize and understand their seniors' point of view, in much the same way that those who helped to tear down the USTU have come to realize what they have done. Hopefully, that realization won't come too late, like it seems to have for USAT.


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## shesulsa (Apr 8, 2011)

While I understand what you're saying and don't necessarily disagree with the traditional respectful mindset that seems to have waned.

Here on the board, however, you're asked to come here without ego - it is an equal playing field for people's discussion.  That's not to say that honorifics and traditions are out of place or are rejected - they're just not required.

I think it might also be of use to everyone if *each* of us practiced a lot of humility.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 8, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't think the forum itself is the issue. Personally I don't write or say anything on here that I wouldn't say directly to a person's face. I also think some of the others really don't follow that same standard. I also think that a lot of people feel that it is appropriate to disregard seniority when making comments, which is why I said that the baby 1st Dan with four years of training is the equal of the 40 year 9th Dan on MT. Not just on MT, but in all of the big public organizations that I am affiliated with, Kukkiwon, USAT, WTF, etc., there are a lot of juniors who do not want hear or consider what their seniors have to say, especially if that senior has a viewpoint that is different from their own.
> 
> I have no doubt that those juniors will come to realize and understand their seniors' point of view, in much the same way that those who helped to tear down the USTU have come to realize what they have done. Hopefully, that realization won't come too late, like it seems to have for USAT.


The problem with this theory is that to say "I have no doubt that those juniors will come to realise and understand the seniors point of view", is that you are insinuating that all seniors have the same point of view. With you, for instance, I disagree with most things you say but so would most 7th or 8th dans at my club and they are seniors. So by saying I will  come around to your way of thinking is very narrow minded because it implies that all seniors have the exact same ideas and theories which simply isnt true. I have no doubt that most of the views I have now as a first dan will not change as I progress because I didnt start MA as a kid, I started as an adult and most of my views are thought out and come from talking with my seniors.


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## shesulsa (Apr 8, 2011)

Are we seriously going to have this argument?

For years the Korean forums here were virtually silent because high ranking Korean martial artists argued about who was smarter, whose opinion mattered more, who deserved honorifics on this forum. This actually included literally insulting other members of the forum with the assumption that they were lower rank or younger know-nothings.

It took some time to get productive conversation started again here.

I'm glad you value your opinion.  I'm glad you have some years behind your opinions.  But your opinions are still just that.  You will not be verbally bowed to here by all members just because you are older and carry high rank, especially if you try to demand it.

Leave ego at the door, please.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 9, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> Are we seriously going to have this argument?
> 
> For years the Korean forums here were virtually silent because high ranking Korean martial artists argued about who was smarter, whose opinion mattered more, who deserved honorifics on this forum. This actually included literally insulting other members of the forum with the assumption that they were lower rank or younger know-nothings.
> 
> ...


Well said. Pretty much word for word what I have been trying to say for some time now. Opinions are just opinions, I dont care whether you are a white belt or a 9th dan you are entitled to an opinion and your opinion shouldnt be of any less value because of what belt level you hold in the dojang.


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## terryl965 (Apr 9, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Well said. Pretty much word for word what I have been trying to say for some time now. Opinions are just opinions, I dont care whether you are a white belt or a 9th dan you are entitled to an opinion and your opinion shouldnt be of any less value because of what belt level you hold in the dojang.


 

GEEEE didI just not go over this in the RANT thread I started. Man somethings will never change.


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## andyjeffries (Apr 9, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> Please elaborate on how a baby frst dan who has been training perhaps 4 years is equal to a 9th dan who has been training 40 years.



Ha ha ha, you completely missed my point... (and I thought you knew me better than to think I'd agree with the above)

If you read Manny's post he was saying that he didn't agree with rank bars (a lot of people think it's egotistical). He was saying he wanted everyone to wear the same uniform/belt, except him who would wear a different uniform.

Now, does my comment make more sense?


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## andyjeffries (Apr 9, 2011)

Manny said:


> Well if that's your opinion I will respect it. The fact is I really like the white jacket/black pants combo and this is only my taste, and for the record is not that I don't like the rank bars, no sir, but it's my taste these days a plan black belt. You are ok with dan bars I am glad for you.



my point was, as I explained to earl, that you don't like dan bars but you want to still show you're different from the students. It would have been a different matter if you'd said "all black belts can wear black trousers if they want".

I respect you and your teaching desires, but I thought this was funny...


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 9, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Well said. Pretty much word for word what I have been trying to say for some time now. Opinions are just opinions, I dont care whether you are a white belt or a 9th dan you are entitled to an opinion and your opinion shouldnt be of any less value because of what belt level you hold in the dojang.


 
Well, for what it's worth, i disagree. 

I believe all opinions should be respectfuly considered. 

However, I give more weight to the opinion formed based on longer and more varied experiences.  Having forty years of experience, and having the same experience for 40 years is far different. 

In another thread I questioned an opinion because based on the profile of the poster it indicated they were a  color belt. It also involved an accurate standard for technique and I happened to know the standard he commented on was that of his instructor. I questioned the depth of his experience as it related to the value of his opinion. 

Many posters criticised my critique of his opinion. Yet , the poster himself / herself later chimed in and agreed that the breadth of his experience was limited and could very well change his opinion if broader.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 9, 2011)

On the flag thing. Some of us may be old enough to remeber when USA Basketball won the Olympics (1992). There was an issue because the official sponsor athletic wear was a competitor of the company for which some of the athletes were paid sponsors. They didn't want to be seen wearing the competitors logo and in fact it may have been a breach of contract to do so. 

There was a problem if they defaced  or removed the logo.

So they all came out for the medal ceremony showing their patriotism by having  a flag draped across their shoulders... a violation of the flag code..... and it just so happened that it strategicaly covered the logo. 

No one accused them of disrespecting the flag.


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## Balrog (Apr 9, 2011)

bondad said:


> Well one of the rules in our school is we line up by rank.  It could be difficult to distinguish black belt ranks if the bars were not on the belts.  In time everyone knows but to a new student it could be confusing.  Our blackbelt ranks have grown from about five to about 20 in the six years I have been attending.


You should have quit at this point.


> But don't worry, I got the insult so you're good...Now you can go feel better about yourself.


That last line was totally uncalled for and completely out of line.  There was no insult in what he posted; he clearly stated that it was his personal opinion.  I'd like to ask if your instructor would be proud of your posting what you did.

Agree or disagree with his opinion as you wish, but respect that opinion.  Courtesy and respect are the hallmarks of a true martial artist.


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## puunui (Apr 9, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> While I understand what you're saying and don't necessarily disagree with the traditional respectful mindset that seems to have waned.



oh well. I also notice that some of those who rebelled against their teachers and/or seniors now have students or juniors who are or will be rebelling against them. It will be interesting to see how that generation handles the situation. 




shesulsa said:


> Here on the board, however, you're asked to come here without ego - it is an equal playing field for people's discussion.  That's not to say that honorifics and traditions are out of place or are rejected - they're just not required.



I understand that. Everyone is entitled to voice an opinion or state what they believe are facts. What I am interested in is what that opinion or statement of fact is based on. 




shesulsa said:


> I think it might also be of use to everyone if *each* of us practiced a lot of humility.



To me, the martial arts are about self discovery. Through its study, we learn about who we are and what we are capable of. We also are given the opportunity to learn and grow. I think that if people kept that in mind, then they may get a clearer picture of what is going on, at least from my perspective.


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## puunui (Apr 9, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> Are we seriously going to have this argument?




If you don't mind me asking, can you tell me who this post is directed to? I don't think it is me necessarily, given the fact that you had already responded to my last post before writing this one.


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## Grenadier (Apr 11, 2011)

This discussion is not about whose opinions matter more, or less.  It's about whether or not new belts should be issued for another dan ranking.  That being said...

*ATTENTION ALL USERS*

Please return to the topic.  

Thank you.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## terryl965 (Apr 11, 2011)

Well to the OP what did your instructor say? Because in the end his opinion is the one that matters.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 11, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't think the forum itself is the issue. Personally I don't write or say anything on here that I wouldn't say directly to a person's face. I also think some of the others really don't follow that same standard. I also think that a lot of people feel that it is appropriate to disregard seniority when making comments, which is why I said that the baby 1st Dan with four years of training is the equal of the 40 year 9th Dan on MT. Not just on MT, but in all of the big public organizations that I am affiliated with, Kukkiwon, USAT, WTF, etc., there are a lot of juniors who do not want hear or consider what their seniors have to say, especially if that senior has a viewpoint that is different from their own.
> 
> I have no doubt that those juniors will come to realize and understand their seniors' point of view, in much the same way that those who helped to tear down the USTU have come to realize what they have done. Hopefully, that realization won't come too late, like it seems to have for USAT.



Well, this is an internet discussion board which is unrelated to any martial arts orgnization.
The only thing we have is our opinion, and while yours may be more relevant than mine in this specific forum, mine will be more relevant in other areas.

Seniority as such is not relevant here.


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## miguksaram (Apr 11, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Well said. Pretty much word for word what I have been trying to say for some time now. Opinions are just opinions, I dont care whether you are a white belt or a 9th dan you are entitled to an opinion and your opinion shouldnt be of any less value because of what belt level you hold in the dojang.


While opinions are opinions there is a distinct difference of informative opinions vs. ignorant opinions.  So if a kid comes to me and tells me the world is flat and that is his opinion are you saying that I shouldn't place any less value in that compared to an astronaut who has told me that the world is round?  If a white belt gives me his/her opinion that TKD started 5000 years ago, because that is what their 35 year old instructor says, am I to place equal value in that as I would a 9th dan, 2nd generation student of Lee, Won-kuk who tells me TKD was the result of several karate-ka getting together back in the 40's to develop an art that would be distinctively Korean?

Problem is that we have this thought that everyone's opinion should be valued when on a board, and if we are talking about preferential opinions like saying "I enjoy having stripes on my belt because it makes me feel distinguished", then I agree.  However, if someone comes up with the opinion USAT are crooks, then I expect them to back that opinion up with facts not feelings.  I will not place value in ignorance.  It is this type of mindset that would allow people to come on here with racially driven opinions saying things like old Korean GM's only look out for other Koreans and don't care about non-Korean instructors.  

Yes you are entitled to your opinion, but once you express it in an open forum then be prepared to defend that opinion.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 11, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Where do you draw the line? *If having rank stripes is 'egotistical' or showing off*, why wear a black belt at all?


Given that taekwondo is a sport, and sports do involve a degree of showing off (getting up in front of an audience wearing brightly colored padding and trying to kick the crap out of the other guy in brightly colored padding so that you can be presented with a medal and/or trophy is the very essence of showing off), I find that the whole stripes=ego argument to be lacking.  

Don't get me wrong; I'm not criticizing the sport.  Part of what makes sports enjoyable is seeing an athlete 'show off' what they can do.  I cannot begrudge them the stripes.

Funny thing is, those that don't like the stripes prefer an unstriped belt based entirely on what it looks like.  My thinking that a belt that is worn and showing white at the edges looks cool is just as superficial as someone else thinking that stripes look cool.    



ralphmcpherson said:


> Why not just train in a tracksuit with no belt, why even own a black belt?


Why not?  Or why not train in normal clothes?  That kimono, under-kimono, and hakama that those prewar masters wore to train in was the equivalent of a three piece suit in Japan at that time.  We could do that and just use white through black ties.



ralphmcpherson said:


> As I said earlier, we had a training camp a couple of weeks ago, there were literally hundreds of black belts all together training on the beach, I regularly asked seniors for advice, if everyone was just in a plain black belt it would have been mayhem. Being able to easily identify someone of a higher/lower rank made things much easier.


I suspect that if all of you had had plain black belts, things would have proceeded just fine and you would have all had other ways of gauging the experience of your fellows.  However, I will concede that in a large gathering, it is helpful.

Daniel


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## puunui (Apr 11, 2011)

>Funny thing is, those that don't like the stripes prefer an unstriped belt 
>based entirely on what it looks like. 


For me, I don't wear stripes on my belt because my teachers never did. But I do recognize that more Korean Martial Arts dojang are adopting stripes on their belts, for a variety of reasons. At the Kukkiwon Instructor Course, people showed up on the first day wearing patch covered uniforms and stripes and other stuff on their belts. We got told that such things are for children, not instructor level adults, and were ordered told to show up for the rest of the seminar in plain uniforms. I think the group photo session was delayed until everyone had a plain uniform. Our Kukkiwon instructors wore plain belts with only their name on it, but their uniform did have the Kukkiwon patch on their left breast area as well as the words Kukkiwon written on the back in hangul.


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## puunui (Apr 11, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Why not?  Or why not train in normal clothes?  That kimono, under-kimono, and hakama that those prewar masters wore to train in was the equivalent of a three piece suit in Japan at that time.  We could do that and just use white through black ties.




In Okinawa, practitioners often trained in their loin cloths, and there was no ranks, so no belt and no stripes on belt. 

And some dobok now cost as much a suit, at least a cheap one. Belts too can cost more than an expensive tie. Jiujitsu uniforms are even more expensive. It's pretty shocking if you ask me.


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## d1jinx (Apr 11, 2011)

I was thinking of changing the uniform to *THONGS*..... but then i thought about who would be wearing them...:barf:


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## Master Dan (Apr 11, 2011)

We use the stripes with a new belt for each Dan which encourages students to have pride in accomplishment line up is based on rank and age with older or senior time in rank observed. Also keep one every day belt for training and one very nice belt for demo or competition possibly a light weight belt for fighting. 

Now I like lots of different belts for myself new and clean I never wear a striped belt outside the dojang olny name in english and Korean. 

While the comment has been made about the ego of stripes and such I have a better one for you instead of using stripes people wash thier black belt over and over with bleach and through a bag of quarters in to the machine to age it and even frey it terribly making the statement I am very old very experienced and very wise. Because of this I have always thrown my old belt away and get new ones.

One question though to all of you who makes the best belts stitching can be very low quality with some suppliers? We are going to train outside alot this summer if we have one? I want to find uniforms comfortable possibly black that won't pick up grass or dirt stance easy?


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## puunui (Apr 11, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Yes you are entitled to your opinion, but once you express it in an open forum then be prepared to defend that opinion.




And don't get upset or resentful when it becomes obvious that you don't have any facts to support that "opinion".


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## Kacey (Apr 11, 2011)

We get new belts at each rank.  However, we also have a tradition of passing down belts to deserving students, which makes the last wearer the mentor of the current wearer.  There was a red bed that was passed down so many times it was pale pink by the time it fell apart and had to be replaced.  It's all in what is normal for the school you're in.


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## puunui (Apr 11, 2011)

Kacey said:


> We get new belts at each rank.  However, we also have a tradition of passing down belts to deserving students, which makes the last wearer the mentor of the current wearer.




They do that in Gracie Jiujitsu here, passing down color belts that you no longer use. There was no mentoring responsibility for the one who held the belt before you. I think it had to do with the fact that that black part on the bottom of the belt where the stripes go had to be hand sewn onto the belt. It was easier to simply pass belts down that already had that black area on one tip. Now I see that they sell belts with that black area on it already so perhaps that tradition of passing belts down will fade. 

I heard that some of the Kenpo people used to dye their belts using rit dye back in the day, and there may have been a passing down of old belts out of economic necessity back then. 

In every other style, they gave us new color belts when we got promoted. We never passed down belts in any Korean style dojang that I joined.


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## puunui (Apr 11, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> While the comment has been made about the ego of stripes and such I have a better one for you instead of using stripes people wash thier black belt over and over with bleach and through a bag of quarters in to the machine to age it and even frey it terribly making the statement I am very old very experienced and very wise. Because of this I have always thrown my old belt away and get new ones.




I don't know anyone who used bleach on their belts or a bag of quarters in the machine to age a belt. I would think that if someone did do that, it would be easy to tell. I don't understand that kind of thinking.


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## puunui (Apr 11, 2011)

Kacey said:


> It's all in what is normal for the school you're in.




Is that the norm in ITF schools in general, or just yours in particular?


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## searcher (Apr 12, 2011)

In my school, I leave it up to the students if they want stripes on their belt or not.   I have belts with and some without.     I have my original BB, but My Wife is currently wearing it while she teaches.    I have another belt that I got when I received my 6th Dan.    I have been thinking about retiring it and getting a new Eosin-Panther BB and wearing it.     I have all of my BBs from each school I have trained in and not oneof them is the same belt.    I figure if I start over in a new system, I will get a new BB when the time comes.

My Wife also has her original BB and she still wears it.    She also has her BB that has her 4 rank bars on it as well(though she rarely wears it).    

We are both keeping our original belts for when our children run their own schools.   I plan to "will" mine to the oldest and she plans to "will" hers to the youngest.


Now, if we go to a big camp or fancy to-do, I wear my belt with my rank bars on it.    But I make a point to line up in the most junior position I can find, right by the white belts.    I let the other guys bicker over who is more senior.    Not my cup of tea.


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## andyjeffries (Apr 12, 2011)

Kacey said:


> However, we also have a tradition of passing down belts to deserving students, which makes the last wearer the mentor of the current wearer.  There was a red bed that was passed down so many times it was pale pink by the time it fell apart and had to be replaced.



I really like this idea.  I don't think I'd do it (I prefer new belts to old looking ones) but it's a really nice idea.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 12, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't know anyone who used bleach on their belts or a bag of quarters in the machine to age a belt. I would think that if someone did do that, it would be easy to tell. I don't understand that kind of thinking.


You may not understand that kind of thinking, but Levis certainly does.  Preworn jeans generally cost more than regular jeans.  

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Apr 12, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't know anyone who used bleach on their belts or a bag of quarters in the machine to age a belt. I would think that if someone did do that, it would be easy to tell. I don't understand that kind of thinking.



Well, yes it is.  I don't understand the practice myself since presumably you're going to set some awfully high expectations for your skill level when you come out wearing something like that.

People do a lot of dumb things in the name of vanity.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 12, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> People do a lot of dumb things in the name of vanity.


And therein lies the understanding of that way of thinking.

Daniel


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 12, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> While the comment has been made about the ego of stripes and such I have a better one for you instead of using stripes people wash thier black belt over and over with bleach and through a bag of quarters in to the machine to age it and even frey it terribly making the statement?


 
Seems good for machine repair and salespeople. Heck, just tie a rope around it and drag it behind your car for a while.


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## puunui (Apr 12, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> One question though to all of you who makes the best belts stitching can be very low quality with some suppliers? We are going to train outside alot this summer if we have one? I want to find uniforms comfortable possibly black that won't pick up grass or dirt stance easy?




Try giving Mr. Kang at Vision USA a call. He can help you. 1-800-424-KICK (5425) or 1-510-208-5000


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## miguksaram (Apr 13, 2011)

puunui said:


> Try giving Mr. Kang at Vision USA a call. He can help you. 1-800-424-KICK (5425) or 1-510-208-5000


 
I have become of a fan of Vision products in the last couple years.  I just wish GM Kim would allow me to bring them to the Hanmadang as a vendor.


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## puunui (Apr 13, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I have become of a fan of Vision products in the last couple years.




Mr. Kang of Vision USA is a great guy. I remember about twenty years ago when he and his brother first started in Northern California driving around to tournaments in their van to sell their products. Now they have a warehouse in Oakland the size of a small city block. Some people try to take advantage of his kind heartedness and generosity.


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## Master Dan (Apr 13, 2011)

puunui said:


> Try giving Mr. Kang at Vision USA a call. He can help you. 1-800-424-KICK (5425) or 1-510-208-5000


 
I am very happy you just did this we keep a file on you and finally I knew you could just not shut up because your such a little boy. You were told to shut up stay out of it and you just couldn't help your self my personal finances and my programs are non of your business you were told shut two years ago.

Talk some more keep it up big man. Your day is comming


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## MJS (Apr 13, 2011)

*Admin Note*

*Stop the personal shots and back and forth crap!  Once again, if you dont want to read someones posts, use the ignore feature, but if you're going to keep going back and forth, threads will be locked, and ICs will be handed out.*

*This thread alone has already generated numerous tickets.*

*MJS
MT Asst. Admin*


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## terryl965 (Apr 13, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> I am very happy you just did this we keep a file on you and finally I knew you could just not shut up because your such a little boy. You were told to shut up stay out of it and you just couldn't help your self my personal finances and my programs are non of your business you were told shut two years ago.
> 
> Talk some more keep it up big man. Your day is comming


 
Master Dan I have always enjoyed your post until this one, why are you attacking puunui all he did was give someone a vendors name to get quality belts. I see nothing about you and your past stituation in that statement. Let all try and be grown up about certain things.

To puunui I will say I am sorry for Master Dam remark it was not justify in any way shape or form.:asian:


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## miguksaram (Apr 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> Mr. Kang of Vision USA is a great guy. I remember about twenty years ago when he and his brother first started in Northern California driving around to tournaments in their van to sell their products. Now they have a warehouse in Oakland the size of a small city block. Some people try to take advantage of his kind heartedness and generosity.



I have heard that Mr. Kang was a nice guy.  Mst. Harris talked about how he would like to work with us.  So I will ask GM Kim one more time for this year.  Hopefully we can get them.


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