# sparring



## kenpo 1 (Sep 23, 2005)

Hello everyone, I am new to this sight and I had a question about sparring. What are some techniques you recommend? Also what do you guys recommend when a guy likes to charge at you right from the get go? Thanks.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 23, 2005)

Get out of the way.

 Work your footwork to let you circle off and throw hooks.  Don't try to stop him, don't let yourself start stepping away.  As soon as he breaks your posture and get you moving backwards you are going to get hit, so move forward, at an angle, get off to the side and take your shoot.

 Or just shoot and take him down


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## Kenpodoc (Sep 23, 2005)

First question.  what rules are you sparring with?

In general there are 2 choices for the opponent who charges. a) meet force with force such as a hard defensive side kick to make him think twice.  Or  b) move off line and strike. If you do EPAK think Intercepting the Ram and Charging Ram. 

As a MMA aside I watched a late night MMA fight several years ago where one guy "lost" a fight by doing Intercepting the Ram.  The opponent tried to shoot low and the guy did a Knee groin, hammerfist kidney and dropped the grappler into a writhing ball on the floor.  Apparently the groin shot/kidney strike was illegal and the "winner was carried out and the "loser" walked away.  

Jeff


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 23, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> First question. what rules are you sparring with?
> 
> In general there are 2 choices for the opponent who charges. a) meet force with force such as a hard defensive side kick to make him think twice. Or b) move off line and strike. If you do EPAK think Intercepting the Ram and Charging Ram.
> 
> ...


I'd take that loss, LOL


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## goshawk (Sep 23, 2005)

The jab is a mighty tool for making people back off, distracting them from your kicks, and setting up a more powerful hit. Start sticking your jab out, also your lead-leg front snap kick (which is like the "foot" version of a jab, really). If every time he comes in to charge he runs into a fist or a foot, he's going to be deterred after a while and start backing off and treating you with more caution.

Of course, you might not _want_ him to get cagey. Sometimes it's more fun to let him charge into the place where you _were_, but no longer are, thanks to using footwork to get out of his way. If you practice that, you can place him in a crap position while you're in the perfect place to fire off a couple combinations uncontested. Or hell, if you're strong enough, just take the charge and fight in close. I wouldn't recommend it myself, but then I'm pretty light.

::shrug:: It's up to you, really.


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## MJS (Sep 23, 2005)

kenpo 1 said:
			
		

> Hello everyone, I am new to this sight and I had a question about sparring. What are some techniques you recommend? Also what do you guys recommend when a guy likes to charge at you right from the get go? Thanks.



Welcome to the forum! Enjoy your stay! :supcool: 

As for your question, you've received some great advice!  I'd definately work on the footwork.  Avoid doing too much backward movement.  As for the techniques: strikes are always a good choice, as well as kicking.  Goshawk made a good suggestion with the lead leg kicks.  I'd avoid spinning kicks, although they can work, but if done incorrectly, such as telegraphing, you could end up putting yourself in a worse position.  

Mike


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## kenpo 1 (Sep 24, 2005)

Thanks for all of your advice.


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## Loki (Sep 24, 2005)

Welcome to Martial Talk, kenpo 1!

Here's another thread on sparring, hope you find it useful.

 What do you mean when you say he charges? Tries to tackle you? Rushes in for a powerful combo?


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## kenpo 1 (Sep 25, 2005)

Yes, rushing in with punches, kicks, just attacking from the start.


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## Loki (Sep 25, 2005)

kenpo 1 said:
			
		

> Yes, rushing in with punches, kicks, just attacking from the start.


 Then my two bits would be that you close yourself up (translating from Hebrew, not sure about the term for going fully defensive), find a hole in his attack pattern and exploit it as soon as possible. This is usually best done by moving out of his line of attack and counter-attacking.


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## Doc (Sep 25, 2005)

We only practice moves sparring or otherwise that are street applicable. We do not engage in any kind of "sport based" training.


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## lonekimono10 (Sep 25, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> We only practice moves sparring or otherwise that are street applicable. We do not engage in any kind of "sport based" training.


 thanks for saying that doc, i know of some people in kenpo who do nothing but sport karate, i'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but it"s not kenpo
  at lease not the kind i was rasied on.


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## eyebeams (Sep 25, 2005)

I can't give you any information about point tag, because I don't do it. 

 1) Practice footwork. Dynamic footwork (that is, footwork based on altering position and rhythm to seize the advantage) is a rare thing among some kenpo people.

 2) Techniques with your lead hand are the bridge to decisive finishing movements or can be decisive in of themselves. Work an active, strong lead with power on both sides (unlike set technical practice, real people switch up all the time). This means either a jab or a bridging arm. I would also recommend receiving techniques that attack the limb, but most kenpo people don't train them dynamically.

 3) Practice blitzing against resistance. A blitz is a chain of techniques that applies forward pressure. Avoid pointlessly changing techniques or relying on how you expect the other person to react to a shot

 4) Practice clinching against resistance.

 5) Learn to grapple.

 I don't know about this "sport" thing, since there are plenty of exercises to train techniques you can't use against friendly resistance. In fact, recognizing the effect of degrees of force makes you a superior fighter, since you aren't going to stupidly increase the intensity of the engagement.

 Plus some attacks, like eye and groin shots, are often overrated. I actually allowed someone to aim for my eyes, groin and throat in an informal match about a month ago. I could easily deflect groin shots, tuck and tense against throat shots, and nod out of gouging attempts. The other guy wasn't particularl vicious, but to be frank (and many people aren't going to want to hear this), the set of people who can unhesitatingly apply a full force technique to certain spots is much, much smaller than the et of people who practice them -- nay, who reccomend them.


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## lonekimono10 (Sep 25, 2005)

we have a saying in kenpo " the best way to beat the atack, is to meet the atack"
   and as for the footwork,  good point's and then we do have other ways of taking care of the butthead who wants to run at you.


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## Seabrook (Sep 26, 2005)

kenpo 1 said:
			
		

> Hello everyone, I am new to this sight and I had a question about sparring. What are some techniques you recommend? Also what do you guys recommend when a guy likes to charge at you right from the get go? Thanks.


A lead leg side kick to the ribs will make someone think twice about charging in at you. In fact, I find that even when my lead leg side kick doesn't connect, if it is delivered with enough force, the opponent is still a lot more hesitant about charging in. 

I would aim to have a quick lead hand punch and kick. The roundhouse annd side kicks are also very important, as are feints. The goal of a fake is to get your opponent to commit himself so that his timing is off. 

Don't just rely on your lead hand and foot, however. Be sure to work your reverse punch frequently. 

According to Bill "Superfoot" Wallace, it is better to find which sparring techniques work for you and to try to perfect them rather than spending time trying to improve techniques that don't feel natural for you. Aim to have 3 to 6 moves that you can use instantly both offensively and defensively. Wallace considers the backfist, reverse punch, side kick, and roundhouse kick as key weapons. 

While most kenpoists don't fight in tournaments, it has a lot of advantages.

Hope that helps.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Seabrook (Sep 26, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> In general there are 2 choices for the opponent who charges. a) meet force with force such as a hard defensive side kick to make him think twice. Or b) move off line and strike. If you do EPAK think Intercepting the Ram and Charging Ram.
> 
> Jeff


That is great advice Jeff. I agree 100% on both accounts.

I recently did some full-contact fighting and found that the Ram techniques worked fabulous against a jiu-jitsu black belt coming in on me fast. That was really the first time I had the chance to work them against a truly LIVE attacker, where nothing was choreographed. Of course, because it wasn't a street fight, I had to modify the weapons I used so as to avoid any major injuries.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## OC Kid (Sep 26, 2005)

Mr Bob White has a great video on sparring techniques. You can purchase it directly from him.


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## Doc (Sep 26, 2005)

Assuming a person was not stiking but "charging to grab," what if you just let him run into you, but you are so structured it would be to his detriment?


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## BallistikMike (Sep 26, 2005)

Now I have never seen or experienced the Structural Integrity of SL4. 


I do use what I call a "Wedge" to address a Front Bull Rush whether striking or not. Similar to Lee Aldridges "Cow Catcher" or T. Blauers "Spear" its more of an interruption, but with damage being caused to the "Rusher". 

I dont have the terminology to compare to Mr. Chapels so ...well...I have no bases to compare. Remember the movie Braveheart where the calvary crashes upon the planted stakes?

Similar except without horse or stakes or angry men in dresses and big swords and cool tatoos <--- this is just funny not a serious dig!

Its a way I can counter attack against pretty much any frontal onslaught that you dont know whats coming. Of course there are much more subtle details. A small insight is I have a 120lb Women who comes down with 3 others for basic self-defense. She can wedge a 210 pound "hit man" (my fellow workout partners who dummy as...well...dummies LOL) running full blast across my 10ft. drill line and up end him.

This didnt happen until she understood the timing and "rooting" herself to the ground. 

Anyway thats about all I have. I also dont like to spar for points or specific techniques geared for sparring. I always figured learning how to move against people who you will never see on the street wearing mitts and such was much more detrimental then actually going hard on resisting opponent's working your self-defense techniques.

Its all drill work and application anyway, I just felt that sparring took away more then it gave.


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## Doc (Sep 26, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> I just felt that sparring took away more then it gave.


Funny, Mr. Parker felt the same way.


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## BallistikMike (Sep 26, 2005)

Mr. Chapel (Playing the devils advocate) if that is the case. 

How come Mr. Parker had so many "Sparring" techniques and also the Internationals for competition?

LOL... I wrote about 5 minutes worth of stuff trying to explain what I felt and why? It all sounded so argumentative and that is the furthest thing I wanted. So I'll just let my question stand alone and maybe you could run with it for awhile.


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## eyebeams (Sep 26, 2005)

Well, it depends on whether the person is:

 1) Charging while blitzing.
 2) Charging to tackle.
 3) Shooting, which isn't really a charge.

 1) Angle away while disrupting his rhythm or balance. Bad blitzers end to be "hardwired" into their combo once they move, so a goos, solid shot can spoil their unconscious plan.

 2) Throw this joker, but watch out for a sudden snap back into a throw attempt. Wrestlers and football players like this kind of thing. I've successfully inerrupted this with a choke.

 3) Sprawl or drop your stance, go for an under/over hold or a head control.

 You  can try to angle in 2 and 3 too, but these tend to happen at much closer range. Strikers like to close and leave a lot in a ring, but in a serious fight they tend to stay close. Generally, intensity increases with range unless you can seriously diminish the person's enthusiasm.


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## Seabrook (Sep 27, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Assuming a person was not stiking but "charging to grab," what if you just let him run into you, but you are so structured it would be to his detriment?


Hmmm....could you be a little more specific here?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Seabrook (Sep 27, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Funny, Mr. Parker felt the same way.


Well then, if that is true, then I disagree with Mr. Parker. 

Sparring is a critical component to one's development of self-defense and confidence (of course, I am not talking about point-fighting here). 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## DavidCC (Sep 27, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Assuming a person was not stiking but "charging to grab," what if you just let him run into you, but you are so structured it would be to his detriment?


You must have high rank in the art of the leading question  

And you know that this topic is high on our list of things we want to understand when you come to Omaha in LESS THAN THREE WEEKS!


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## OC Kid (Sep 28, 2005)

Well I aient no Doc by no means but I would say that once people start concentrating on sparring the other aspects of the system tend to set to the side. Especially the SD and forms and basics.

At least thats what happened in my case.


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## Ray (Sep 28, 2005)

Sparring is the part I enjoy the most.  I hope there will be some elaboration on why sparring takes more than it gives.


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 28, 2005)

when practicing self defense one has very few options.....escape or fight.
i only practice for self defense, so i make sure that what i do is as fast and efficient as possible. whether im practicing to  control an opponent by destroying his ability to maintain base while locking him up or control him through the use of strikes, it must end quickly. it isnt always pretty, but it has to be functional.
sparring on the other hand is a contest where people tend to dance around each other hoping to not get tagged all the while trying to tag their opponent. this is not an efficient use of time and energy.
i am, admittedly, a horrible stand up sparring person, and some would say this is a detriment to my ability to use martial arts effectively in a self defense situation. this is because when i spar i tend to use all of my resources at overwhelming my opponent both physically and mentally, and this does not fit well within a sparring situation.
had i a teacher when i first started training in kempo focus more on sparring over self defense this might be different, but im glad i didnt.


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## The Kai (Sep 28, 2005)

There are differnt types of sparring, that train differnent aspects.  To say sparring is dancing around trying not to get tagged shows a blind spot in regards to footwork, timing, distance and using angles in a free form stuation.  Is it the end all of all questions-NO-but it is a piece of the puzzle


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 28, 2005)

ive been in plenty of free form situations e.g. self defense
you can practice self defense in a free form situation and practice footwork, timing, distance and angles quite easily.
most sparring ends up being a dance contest......most
most people practice self defense with a preset routine that has attacker punching, kicking or grabbing.
while drills like that are certainly effective at getting a person to move, the real practice starts with the unknown......losing the techniques and preset routines.
sparring tends to get people into a routine that is hard to break out of, one of which ends up being dancing around their opponent.....people have to learn to poop(fight) or get off the pot(escape).


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## Seabrook (Sep 28, 2005)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> Well I aient no Doc by no means but I would say that once people start concentrating on sparring the other aspects of the system tend to set to the side. Especially the SD and forms and basics.
> 
> At least thats what happened in my case.


I agree to a point. 

But if you don't spar regularly, how do you know you can truly defend yourself in a real fight? Don't get me wrong....I am a techniques fanatic. But what good are the techniques if you can't apply them when someone is trying to take your head off and the fight isn't choreographed?

Sparring is critical. Kenpoists that spar regularly are typically tough as nails. And those that don't, well, don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not convinced you can defend yourself against someone really tough. 

Also, how does one's basics deteriorate when one spars often??? I would argue 100% to the contrary. In fact, your basics improve more when you trying to hit a real target. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## The Kai (Sep 28, 2005)

Free form self defense tends to move slow and obvious.  It is impossible to approach free form self defense at speed due to safety considerations.  Avoiding a preset technique is great way to train the flexibilty of the mind but agian a piece of the puzzle 
As for most Sparring being a Dance contest, have'nt noticed that-in fact that is the saw that most people who don't spar use to scoff and downplay sparring.  The maneuvering that fighters do on the outside is'nt much different from a bar fight!  think about it how many bar fighters step up and launch a punch?  do they (preengagement) try to circle behind you or distract or unbalance you with verbal or physical motions? Sparring correctly is harder then you realize!

As Mr Seabrook said  and my teacher believes that sparring is the "X" factor .
One's basics suffering comes from a teacher that ignores the immense value of basics


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## Andrew Green (Sep 28, 2005)

Many people have no idea that sparring can mean something other then the no-contact stop and go point fighting used in open tournaments...

 For them, "sparring" is of no use, but neither are guns in a real battle, after all, all they do is squirt water.


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## BallistikMike (Sep 28, 2005)

I'll answer what I think sparring does for you. 

It allows you to have a sporting chance of playing a game to get more points (hits) then the other guy. It is a great confidence booster when you win. Develops great comradeship. Allows for a resisting opponent with varying degrees of resistance.

What I think it doesnt do for you. 

It destroys the actual footwork you will see during a self-defense encounter. 

If you honestly believe the hype of keeping high stances and mobility then you also believe the hype that all fights go to the ground and then they do, because of your high stance and mobility. Im not saying rooted to the earth with chains mind you, but rooted stances allow for better footwork. I know you think Im nutz and thats ok. 

You can have resisting self-defense techniques once the basics have been learned. I dont understand that question or reason of thought how people say sparring gives you a resisting opponent? Really? How so? You both square off, you both understand the rules, you both understand its just a game and people need to work the next day. Sure you are having to effectively overcome your sparring opponent, dont you all do this for your self-defense techniques? Dont you all put yourself in such positions that you are at a complete disadvantage and need to workout from it? Sparring makes it all equal, it starts from neutral. Resistance that comes from starting from "negative" now that is a resisting opponent. That is what training self-defense techniques is compared to sparring.

Is sparring lining up on a wall and having 2 - 3 - 4 people come at you in mob form or one at a time, then throw some others with shields in rushing you so you can practice full power, not sparring power, huge difference by the way. When does it become drill work and not sparring.

Sparring is just a drill. Boxer's spar all the time and consider it a drill. They never go as hard sparring as they do in the actual ring of a match. Never. Otherwise its a match. They are training for a very specific type of match though and the sparring they do is designed to emulate that match as close as possible.

So sparring is trying to emulate our match as close as possible then. So we are going to encounter an opponent who understands our fighting system, lines up in front of us, the ref says begin? Nope.

Sparring? Yeah it helps, but unless you train with resisting opponent's as close to the venue "match" that you will see you are hurting yourself more then you are helping yourself.

Resisting opponent's is a huge benefit you get from sparring. You lose much of it when you apply it from a match perspective and not an ambush perspective. Its not just about taking the punch or delivering the punch. Its as Mr. Chapel states "Surviving the intial attack" (used as an example) and that has been around a long long time. This is where I think "Sparring" hinders your ability the most. That false perception of being the "dojo" or "gym" bad @$$ when it really only matters if you can survive that initial onslaught. That is what needs to be trained the most, not the combinations and techniques afterwards thats easy...thats sparring.

So yes sparring has it purpose. To line you up against a similar knowledge of players, doing similar techniques in a controlled environment trying to relpicate a match that you will only see in competitoin or in the gym/dojo. Dont get me wrong the resisting opponent is flat out awesome, what exactley are you or they resisting against though?

Also when you say "sparring" are people meaning resisting opponent's? Because that is a far different view then what I have of "sparring" We resist and pressure test everything we do in the club Im in and by no means what so ever can you call it sparring.


You make the call of whether that is helping you or hindering you.


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## eyebeams (Sep 28, 2005)

> If you honestly believe the hype of keeping high stances and mobility then you also believe the hype that all fights go to the ground and then they do, because of your high stance and mobility. Im not saying rooted to the earth with chains mind you, but rooted stances allow for better footwork. I know you think Im nutz and thats ok.


 No, I just think that you haven't necessarily kept up with the last decade of training in mixed, full contact venues. In the beginning it was indeed true that strikers had a poor base because they didn't need it in their main (striking only) sport. Current MMA sport fighters use lower, more rooted postures, but unlike people who train solely with drills, they know how to mix it up with dynamic shifts in posture. This is not an advantage of technique but in knowing how to apply the tools at hand.

 Plus, of course, people who don't spar freeze when they take a face shot almost every time.

 The disadvantage of the sport appraoch comes from unrealistic pacing (in self-protection situations, "conserving gas" is usually irrelevant) and training periodization (you want to be ready all the time, and not necessarily exhausted from training up to a match). This and the applicability of techniques that don't work in sparring sitautions can be remedied by good coaching instead of set dogma about what "sport" is.


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## The Kai (Sep 28, 2005)

In most stress filled street fights, conserving gas or holding back don't usally come into play


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## Andrew Green (Sep 28, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> It allows you to have a sporting chance of playing a game to get more points (hits) then the other guy. It is a great confidence booster when you win. Develops great comradeship. Allows for a resisting opponent with varying degrees of resistance.


 Who said anything about points?



> It destroys the actual footwork you will see during a self-defense encounter.


 Wha?!?

 So, doing something that requires footwork, destroys your footwork?



> If you honestly believe the hype of keeping high stances and mobility then you also believe the hype that all fights go to the ground and then they do, because of your high stance and mobility. Im not saying rooted to the earth with chains mind you, but rooted stances allow for better footwork. I know you think Im nutz and thats ok.


 Yup, rooted stances are a great way to get taken down.



> You can have resisting self-defense techniques once the basics have been learned.


 Yup, it's called sparring 



> I dont understand that question or reason of thought how people say sparring gives you a resisting opponent? Really? How so? You both square off, you both understand the rules, you both understand its just a game and people need to work the next day.


 Alright, given all of that, can you explain how your method of providing resistance gets around all of that?

 Sounds like you are saying it's not perfect and has some of the same weaknesses as other methods so don't bother.



> Sure you are having to effectively overcome your sparring opponent, dont you all do this for your self-defense techniques? Dont you all put yourself in such positions that you are at a complete disadvantage and need to workout from it? Sparring makes it all equal, it starts from neutral. Resistance that comes from starting from "negative" now that is a resisting opponent. That is what training self-defense techniques is compared to sparring.


 So don't start from neutral...  I'd imagine you'd have a hard time finding a grappling club that always started from a neutral position.  And even if you do, it doesn't stay neutral very long.  It is just a starting position, fights are fluid.



> Sparring is just a drill. Boxer's spar all the time and consider it a drill. They never go as hard sparring as they do in the actual ring of a match. Never. Otherwise its a match. They are training for a very specific type of match though and the sparring they do is designed to emulate that match as close as possible.


 No of any boxers that do well without sparring?  No?  Didn't think so...



> So sparring is trying to emulate our match as close as possible then. So we are going to encounter an opponent who understands our fighting system, lines up in front of us, the ref says begin? Nope.


 So...  you restrict your sparring based on the stylistic ideals of your system.  I can see why you think it is worthless.  Not everyone spars like you though.



> Sparring? Yeah it helps, but unless you train with resisting opponent's as close to the venue "match" that you will see you are hurting yourself more then you are helping yourself.


 So do it.



> This is where I think "Sparring" hinders your ability the most.


 So, in your classes, people spontaneuosly attack you full out from behind to see if you can recover and get into the fight?  

 No?

 Ok, so how is sparring hurting something that you aren't training for anyways?




> So yes sparring has it purpose. To line you up against a similar knowledge of players, doing similar techniques in a controlled environment trying to relpicate a match that you will only see in competitoin or in the gym/dojo. Dont get me wrong the resisting opponent is flat out awesome, what exactley are you or they resisting against though?


 Again, not everyone restricts there sparring as much as you do.  Maybe it's time to go play with people from other playgrounds under less rules?



 If you don't like sparring, fine.  Don't do it.

 But without sparring you are not a fighter, period, end of discussion.  You will not likely ever beat anyone who is.  

 Also training cause you believe bad people will sneak attack you from behind if you aren't prepared is bordering paranoia...

 Different people do martial arts for different reasons, they get different things out of it.  But regardless of what you are doing, you don't have everything.  If you are not doing some form of hard, realistic sparring you are not a fighter.  You might be getting something out of what you are doing, but you are not getting the fighting aspect to much extent.  Accept it, focus on what you are getting, and don't make silly excuses saying practice fighting hurts your ability to "fight for real."


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## lonekimono10 (Sep 28, 2005)

you guys are funny


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## Doc (Sep 28, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Mr. Chapel (Playing the devils advocate) if that is the case.
> 
> How come Mr. Parker had so many "Sparring" techniques and also the Internationals for competition?
> 
> LOL... I wrote about 5 minutes worth of stuff trying to explain what I felt and why? It all sounded so argumentative and that is the furthest thing I wanted. So I'll just let my question stand alone and maybe you could run with it for awhile.


How you doing buddy? Well to understand you really have to look at the popular history of the Martial Arts in America. Much of the roots and popularity of the arts is grounded in the sport aspects because we, as American understand and enjoy the competitive nature of these type activities. Sports at all levels, from child amateurs to adult pros is big business. 

Early American martial artist usually learned while in the military, studying for a relatively brief period under Asian Instructors and achieving black belts quickly with limited punch/kick skills and comensurate knowledge. The competitive nature of Americans fit this aspect of study perfectly and instructors gave them what they wanted.  

Coming back to the USA they pioneered the competition circuit and thus indoctrinated generations to believe that was what Martial Arts is and was. Much like today when everyone wants to know "Do you teach NHB grappling?" The general public and many practitioners themselves believe this is all there is to the art.

Although certain aspects of "sparring" can be positive, it is important to take note the progenitors of most of the older arts like Ed Parker himself, did not engage in or believe in contest sparring. Most tend to forget that even more modern icons like Bruce Lee also did not believe in or engage in contest sparring for points, prizes, or trophys.

Sparring can introduce the physicality and the dynamics of human interaction on a competitive basis. However by its nature, it also must exclude the majority and finer points of combat, reducing these exercises to exhibitions of blunt force trauma and endurance.

Parker believed that sparring best helped to foster the warrior spirit or mentality in Americans in preparation for combat, but should not be considered to take the place of training for actual confrontation because of its extreme limitations relative to an actual street encounter.

Today that even holds true in the military where they teach "grappling" not as techniques to be used in warfare, but as character assessment exercises and to build a measure of mental tougness. But sparring leaves out 99% of what happens in real combat, and the better you get at that 1%, the more the other 99% is neglected, never learned, or diminishes.

Many, many schools today utilize sparring as their base curriculum, and that is not necessarily a bad thing - as long as you recognize it can be an aspect of the art, and is not necessarily all the art. But the practice of giving belts for sparring ability and contest successes also has systematically watered down many interpretations of the arts. Persons achieving status or rank in this manner inevitably, through no fault of their own, teach and award rank in the same manner thus exacerbating the lack of desimination of more technical knwledge and subsequent street skills. Sparring ranks are just that, belts awarded for competition skill and success. When I ran the Internationals there were a bunch of guys who always lost every year, who you wouldn't want to fight in the parking lot.

Ed Parker created, introduced, and conducted the first and largest competitive tournament in the world. You don't really thing he would discourage sparring do you? It was/is good business not only in competiton venues, but in the martial arts business schools as well.


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## Sapper6 (Sep 28, 2005)

outstanding post Doc Chapel. :asian:


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## Andrew Green (Sep 28, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Although certain aspects of "sparring" can be positive, it is important to take note the progenitors of most of the older arts like Ed Parker himself, did not engage in or believe in contest sparring. Most tend to forget that even more modern icons like Bruce Lee also did not believe in or engage in contest sparring for points, prizes, or trophys.


 There is something there that I agree with (I think)

 and that is that if someone only focuses on the competition they get tunnel vision and thats when things can go bad.

 When people start basing there strategies and methods around a specific set of rules, and to take advantage of those rules.  An example would be point sparring, and guys hopping around on one foot throwing head kick after head kick.  They are taking advantage of the rule that says the other guy can't slam them, kick there supporting leg out and if they fall down the ref will stop the fight until they are back up and ready to go.  Kicks don't have to hurt to score, in fact they don't even have to hit hard, they just got to hit (or stop short of hitting)

 Sparring like that, for that, is of little value when training for anything but that.


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## BallistikMike (Sep 28, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> But without sparring you are not a fighter, period, end of discussion. You will not likely ever beat anyone who is.
> 
> Also training cause you believe bad people will sneak attack you from behind if you aren't prepared is bordering paranoia...
> 
> Different people do martial arts for different reasons, they get different things out of it. But regardless of what you are doing, you don't have everything. If you are not doing some form of hard, realistic sparring you are not a fighter. You might be getting something out of what you are doing, but you are not getting the fighting aspect to much extent. *Accept it, focus on what you are getting, and don't make silly excuses saying practice fighting hurts your ability to "fight for real*."


Its an amazing thing how you can judge what type of "fighter" I am. 

I will never be a fighter. I will never claim to be a fighter. I never have claimed to be a fighter. Fighting is ... well... sporting.

I am also amazed that you honestly believe that I wrote about a sneak attack. I wrote about being ambushed and training from the "Negative" position of being in a bad situation. Ambushes happen every single night across this nation. Pick a bar, bet we could find it happening a few times a year in any bar you pick. 

You missed the entire post. Never stated we didn't spar, never said we didn't roll, Im sorry that you missed that and felt attacked or threatened or needed to think you did so you could write what you did. 

What Im very sorry about is that you think "sparring" hard is self-defense training. Self-Defensing (LOL) hard is self-defense training. You are still thinking of hitting hard, rolling hard, submissions and sporting footwork is judge and jury for self-defense. Its a tool, a drill and one that I feel takes away more then it adds. 

Because we didnt square off and get the word from the ref to "get it on" doesnt mean we do not LOL "get it on".

and...yes...lol...we do surprise each other by turning the lights off, thorwing plastic garbage cans in the middle of the floor, blind tackles when you walk right in the school, 3rd or 4th person interupting a drill and attacking during it, its called chaos training. You should try it sometime instead of squaring off and sparring hard one on one, under controlled circumstances with a ref willing to stop it the moment you get knocked too hard. We evolved beyond that years ago after we got our clock rung by yes MMA's and incorporated into our self-defense training. 

Chaos is where I really wanted to take it. Sparring does embrace this a bit, sparring hard even more, all in sparring even more, then negative position all in sparring even more, then negative all in sparring and you get "hit men" thrown at you (multiple bad guys), oh wait change sparring for self-defense and then you have what we do more of. More then "sparring" that is.

and...to the bold underline that I highlighted in your post I completely agree. Focus what you are getting out of it, also you should expand you horizons and not judge what others do because they dont do what you do. 

Good luck to you. Hands up, chin down


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## Doc (Sep 28, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> There is something there that I agree with (I think)
> 
> and that is that if someone only focuses on the competition they get tunnel vision and thats when things can go bad.
> 
> ...


On that sir, I wholeheartedly agree. But then again as you know, there is "sparring" and there is "sparring type training." Our group "spars" to work specific skills and effectiveness. We work on all manner of reality sparring drills that are as real as we can get them. I like your example of a person coming from behind full bore for a bearhug attack. That's a tough one for most, but not hard when you understand the mechanics envolved. It just mandates realistic reps. Students have to survive it at our first level to move to other areas of training.

One of the best things about sparring of all types is "adrenal" thus hardening "soft" muscle memory and senaptic pathways. The problem with contest sparring is the hardening in much of what you do, of the wrong pathways. Call it "bad habits" if you will under adrenal stress syndrome. When pressed you tend to go back to those well trained and familiar pathways or muscle memory. Not always a bad thing, but also not necessarily a good thing either when your attacker is in "combat mode" and you're in a "sparring mode."

A large percentage of my students are law enforcement agents and uniformed street officers. I've never had a field failure of any aspect of our curriculum yet, and they all swear by the training. I'll take that as a "reality endorsement" considering they have more confrontations in a week than most have in a lifetime.

Good thoughts Mr. Green.


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## Doc (Sep 28, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Its an amazing thing how you can judge what type of "fighter" I am.
> 
> I will never be a fighter. I will never claim to be a fighter. I never have claimed to be a fighter. Fighting is ... well... sporting.
> 
> ...


Ummmmmmm! Chaos Theory. I like it Mr. Anderson. Follow the white rabbit. You are "The One."


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## BallistikMike (Sep 28, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Ummmmmmm! Chaos Theory. I like it Mr. Anderson. Follow the white rabbit. You are "The One."


Not really a theory. More like reality.

I like this as an example. "The more you train, the more luck you will create."

or ... "The more you train the less luck you will need."

One thing is for sure... you will need luck when you head is tapped up against the here and now and it becomes go time. How would each and everyone of you like it to come, like a lottery or what you create ?

Back to the sparring.

The Olympics. Every event from the original Olympics was a drill soldiers used training for full combat, full warfare.

The discus throw.
The shot put.
The javaline.
Bow & Arrow.
Marathon.

Everyone of those and many others were drills being done by soldiers. The soldiers were sent to compete at the drills they did best against all the world. EXCEPT the soldiers that were needed to stay back and fight or protect. The warriors.

That is an example of where I am going.

Sparring is nothing but a drill.

Kihon, Kata & Kumite. The traditional way of practicing Karate. Kumite being? Sparring? Fighting? Practical Self-Defense Training? All of the above.

People became very good at sparring.Champions were born. Drills were created to enhace how you did the original drill "Sparring". Soon "Sparring" became the entire system, became the only way to judge how effective a person would be in "real" combat. A drill became the way of judging effective combat.

The same can be said for Kata and for kihon. Forms and basics. It takes ALL THREE. 

Flat out when you create drills, to enahce a drill, to become a champion that HURTS self-defense. It is about self-defense right? It isnt about being a fighter, a champion right? If it is then I am completely off base. I apologize.


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## Doc (Sep 28, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> It takes ALL THREE.


Yes it does Mister Anderson. That why I make a distinction between "competitive sparring" and specific activity designed to enhance reality skills.


> It is about self-defense right? It isnt about being a fighter, a champion right? If it is then I am completely off base. I apologize.


Exactomundo Mister Anderson. Morbius would be proud.


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## BallistikMike (Sep 28, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Yes it does Mister Anderson. That why I make a distinction between "competitive sparring" and specific activity designed to enhance reality skills.
> 
> Exactomundo Mister Anderson. Morbius would be proud.


Now if only I could stop bullets by just thinking it... now thats self-defense.


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## Doc (Sep 28, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Now if only I could stop bullets by just thinking it... now thats self-defense.


Sorry, you must get in that already long line.


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## kenpoworks (Sep 28, 2005)

I have had a quick squint at "Ballistikmike's" post and I agree with a lot (most) of what he is saying about "stylized" competition fighting.
Sparring does improve some "stuff" but it can lead to a false sense of ability even a dangerously inflated idea of ones own ability.It may even lead to restrictive traits which will stop a person from taking action based on their initiative or natural instincts.
Years ago after class a few of us used to stay on and do 20 to 30mins of "Milling", a British Army fighting excercise, it is a great leveller as well as an eye opener (or sometimes closer), it built endurance, stamina,fortitude, resillience heightened awareness and basically shook out all the restictive practices of a scheduled class, it used to kinda balance things out. These days after class I have to cut and run.
Richie.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Sep 29, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Sparring is nothing but a drill...
> 
> ...Flat out when you create drills, to enahce a drill, to become a champion that HURTS self-defense.


Mr. Mike and Doc: I must, to some extent, respectfully disagree.

The kenpo community at large is already full of guys who have great forms, extensive vocabularies, but don't spar, and therefore have never put their kenpo in motion against resistance. Note: That is NOT to say that all kenpoists that spar can fight, or that all who don't cannot.

It IS to say that the experience in gauging depth, timing, etc., that one gains from sparring cannot truly be gained in any other arena than to trade blows with someone who is trying to spin your melon during a 2-hour sparring class. Will it reinforce bad habits? Surely...but I have seen many kenpoistas with bad habits anyways, who don't spar, and consequently lack the practical skills around keeping their hands up and responding to blitzes.

I've seen guys from schools with spot-on form and lots of fancy EPAK words; pop them in the nuts with a sneaky lead-leg roundhouse, and thier supreme technical prowess drops just in time to check off their lead hand and clang them in the head with a solid rear hand/sweep/downward punch combination. Press the blitz, and you can see otherwise skilled practitioners fold under the pressure of an ongoing attack.  Does it mean, all at once, that kenpo doesn't work? Of course not. What it does mean is that this particular practitioner lacks the mental wherewithall to apply their kenpo to resisting an ongoing attack. (Oops...I didn't throw the punch, then freeze in time to let them finish thier self-defense techniques).

Now, Doc and I have gone over this before. He has some very cool training models that provide depth response training and reactive patterning without having to glove up and bang around. Having said that, there's, like, 6 to 12 guys that show up on a regular basis, out of how many millions of kenpo practitioners worldwide?

Out of a deep desire not to get tooled the next time I show up at Docs, I'll grant that his guys have reached a level of coordination and responsiveness that negates a NEED for sparring. Now, just to play devils advocate, what if we took his small clan of technically profound kenpoists, and had them spar, paying attention to not violating the sound anatomical principles of SL-4? Are there lessons under the mits that they haven't gleaned yet, because they haven't gone there?

Who knows for sure. I, personally, believe that the only way to learn to swim is to jump in the water and get wet. And while continuous sparring may not be a perfect model for practicing perfect kenpo perfectly, it is the closest we can get thus far to getting knocked around; learning how NOT to get knocked around; all while managing to knock the other guy around...who, coincidently, is also trying to accomplish the same thing.

Sparring hurts self-defense? I'm not on board for that one. I'm thinking that sparring helps defense for MOST of the people, MOST of the time, becaue it's the only training modality that provides live karate-in-motion-with-follow-through training, without risks of much more serious injury.

Will stances suffer? Heck yeah. Most folks (myself included) have crappy stancework anyway. Why not at least be able to throw down on someone while they are thrownig down on you?  Will clean blocks that injure an opponent and misalign him be replaced by less efficient positioned checks? Sure...most of kenpo is already there, mainly because very few in life have the patience to put into developing real skill out of basics, or are learning from instructors who don't posses it themselves. 

But to pronounce sparring as the antithesis of defense? A bit much for me. I would rather FIGHT the average kenpoist than the average boxer, because the average kenpoist will not have sufficient command of their basics to hit me hard enough to really injure me. The average boxer, on the other hand, has 3 to 4 good punches he's worked ad nauseum, and has worked out throwing them, hard, while someone else is throwing them at him. He CAN hurt me, and he CAN continue to think on his feet while I hurt him...an ability I think the average kenpoists loses right after they get their melon rung for the first time in a fight. Especially guys who have never sparred.

Finally, fighting takes wind. Mine sucks so bad right now, that just the shouting match leading up to the brawl (if I'm lucky enough to get one) would have me huffing and puffing for air. To date, one of the most intense cardio workouts I've ever had is sparring....pulse rockets from rest to bounding in the first 20 seconds of heated exchange. Parker mentions in one of the II books that, all other things being equal (skill, size, speed, etc.), victory will go to the better-conditioned athlete. Sparrnig is, essentially, wind-sprints with bruising. You bounce for a couple seconds, then burst in offense, defense, or counters, then go back to bouncing. What an awesome aerobic session! And you get the added bonus of some mook trying to shove his glove forcefully into your face, gut, kidneys, or groin!  After a couple hundred hours of that, Joe Blow off the street throwing a wild haymaker right is laughable. Yes, form and basics will suck, but his blood on the ground instead of yours can help the guilt around that vanish rather quickly.

Now, if all y'all will excuse me, I have to go stuff a pillow down the back of my gi pants to cushion the whoopin' I got coming.

Best Regards,

Dave


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## The Kai (Sep 29, 2005)

"_The discus throw.
The shot put.
The javaline.
Bow & Arrow.
Marathon.

Everyone of those and many others were drills being done by soldiers. The soldiers were sent to compete at the drills they did best against all the world. EXCEPT the soldiers that were needed to stay back and fight or protect. The warriors"_

IMHO this is faulty logic, if you are competing in the Discuss Throw how could you also be simultaeously guarding the borders?  So those that stayed back could be viewed as "warriors" or simply as guys who were'nt up to the level as the olympians.

Boxing and wrestling two sporting type people who are a lot harder to deal with then the average Kenpoist


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## Seabrook (Sep 29, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Many people have no idea that sparring can mean something other then the no-contact stop and go point fighting used in open tournaments...


Exactly Andrew.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Seabrook (Sep 29, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> I'll answer what I think sparring does for you.
> 
> It allows you to have a sporting chance of playing a game to get more points (hits) then the other guy. It is a great confidence booster when you win. Develops great comradeship. Allows for a resisting opponent with varying degrees of resistance.


Is that how you have been fighting (sparring) throughout the years? If so, I can see why you feel that way.

But I'll tell you something. One guy I have taught on several occasions is a world champion full-contact kickboxer. To make a long story short, most of his wins are by knockout. No, not any of that nonsense "no-touch" stuff....but by hitting his opponent so darn hard with his punches and kicks to areas that could potentially do lethal damage. 

Is that not the sparring you are used to?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Kenpodoc (Sep 29, 2005)

I'd like to postulate that the value or competitive sparring depends upon when it is done in the course of a lifetime of study.  I believe that point sparring is a very valuable part of childrens martial arts training. Children learn through play and learning to play a game of martial tag with a developing nervous system may well lay ground work for improved skill as an adult.  It is my experience that the children who join sparrring class have better basics in regular technique based class and better understand that they are not just doing a dance class. With the kids I continually try to relate the lessons in the techniques to point sparring. We do an escalating series of sparring involving different rules from simple point sparring, to only combinations score to continuous sparring to multiple opponent sparring with opponents taking turns from the front, to random opponents taking turns from all sides to genuine mass attack. In the process they have a great deal of fun and learn to read opponents actions increasingly well.  

Mr. Parker questioned the value of sparring but had probably done quite a bit earlier in his career. In adults point style sparring may have  a place early in training but if continued may encourage bad habits.  Personally I spar with the teens because I love to watch them improve and learn to whoop me at the sport aspect of the art. I suspect that in adults "sparring" with drills like Doc describes is far more effective but Doc spent enough time with people like Mr. Muhammad that I'm sure he spent a significant period of time sparring. I therefore wonder if sparring even in adults has a value earlier in a career.

Jeff


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## Seabrook (Sep 29, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Mr. Mike and Doc: I must, to some extent, respectfully disagree.
> 
> The kenpo community at large is already full of guys who have great forms, extensive vocabularies, but don't spar, and therefore have never put their kenpo in motion against resistance. Note: That is NOT to say that all kenpoists that spar can fight, or that all who don't cannot.
> 
> ...


Dave,

Couldn't have stated it better. Well put and best of luck in your training.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 29, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Is that how you have been fighting (sparring) throughout the years? If so, I can see why you feel that way.
> 
> But I'll tell you something. One guy I have taught on several occasions is a world champion full-contact kickboxer. To make a long story short, most of his wins are by knockout. No, not any of that nonsense "no-touch" stuff....but by hitting his opponent so darn hard with his punches and kicks to areas that could potentially do lethal damage.
> 
> ...


so lemme guess......thats how you spar?


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 29, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> "_The discus throw._
> _The shot put._
> _The javaline._
> _Bow & Arrow._
> ...


i hate to be the one that says this.......the average martial artist in any art is just plain average...... its not tough guys learning how to fight better.......they're geeks trying to fight back


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## The Kai (Sep 29, 2005)

Most MA types that do well in street fights are those that spar.  Is that because "tougher" more agressive individual are drawn to sparring schools, I don't know.  There is of course more to the arts then sparring-but it is a part of your devolpement.  If I were to state the opinion that "Basic suck, we don't really practice them" people would (rightfully) point out that a large part of my vocabulary is missing.  It is no different with sparring


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 29, 2005)

todd......i think that my issue is with the type of sparring.
like i said before....i mostly practice for self defense, so my experience with the "streetfighter" type of martial artists have been quick and painless.


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## The Kai (Sep 29, 2005)

You have been fortunate to face some one who throws exagerrated punchs, wihout any recoil.  When I was young(er) I was unlucky enough to face off across a pool table with a ex golden gloves boxer.  Fortunatly the scars in his eyebrows was a clue, and his skills were probably rusty.  But it was a hard lesson in expecting a punch or jab to remain extended!  And in the big body motions commonly seen in SD training, not there


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## Seabrook (Sep 29, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> so lemme guess......thats how you spar?


I don't do enough of full-contact as I would like, but I do spar regularly and not for points. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Andrew Green (Sep 29, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I don't do enough of full-contact as I would like, but I do spar regularly and not for points.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


 Low kicks?  Clinch? Takedowns?  Groundwork?  Weapons?

 What elemenst do you incorporate into your sparring?


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## Seabrook (Sep 29, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Low kicks? Clinch? Takedowns? Groundwork? Weapons?
> 
> What elemenst do you incorporate into your sparring?


No weapons, but I do use low kicks, clinches, and takedowns if I fight full-contact. I must admit my groundwork is less than adequate, but I am working on applying kenpo on the ground. It takes time. 


Keno rocks,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## lonekimono10 (Sep 29, 2005)

kenpo works up or down, just have to know what to look for(not saying that you don't) just droping by,


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## Andrew Green (Sep 29, 2005)

If you want to learn groundfighing you will be far better of finding someone that already does to train with then making it up from scratch...

 Kenpo is not for the ground, it is for fighting on your feet.  Trying to make it into something it isn't is a bad idea and makes things look bad from the outside.

 No art has everything, and admitting that doesn't make any art inferior.


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 29, 2005)

i guess that depends on who the teacher is.
when i first started studying kempo.....it was mostly grappling. it was jujutsu.
we didnt really differentiate between striking and grappling.....you hit when you had to, you grappled when you had to.
i must admit i was rather shocked the more exposure i had to american kenpo that it didnt "seem" to include it more.
there are different "kempo" 's out there that do different things.


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## The Kai (Sep 29, 2005)

I think Mr Green is talking about hardcore groundfighting (think UFC) rather then stand up joint locking into takedowns stuff.  There is a big diiference.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 29, 2005)

I wouldn't call it hardcore 

 It's quite safe, we got 6 year olds doing Submission Grappling....


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## The Kai (Sep 29, 2005)

You mean HardCore 6 year olds, right?  I meant it in the sense of methodology rather than intensity


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## BallistikMike (Sep 29, 2005)

I just pointed out what "I" feel happens when you "Spar" and judge by that alone.

Point sparring, continous sparring, MMA sparring, all have merit. I was just saying in the context of the post that it will also hinder you. I feel it will create bad habits when you apply it to the street application of self-defense. I have done MMA, did I train with a champion. Nope. I have rolled with some names that you would recognize, so what. It had no bearing on what I have seen for the past 13 years in the bar I own when it came to self-defense.

The effect it did have was I "Uped" the threat on the self-defense techniques I practice and if you miss..well...you get clocked. Also allowed me to move into more of a pressure test atmosphere. So I gleaned a "Huge" amount of info from getting smacked around by MMA, Jiu Jitsu and Wreslters. I never said I didnt. In fact I acknowledged it. 

What I am saying is if you believe that MMA sparring is the end all be all of judging self-defense you would be wrong. There is a lot more application then the "resisting" and "full power" shots of the drill (sparring).

Conditioning, heart, will to win, competiveness are also benefits of sparring. They are also benefits of sound training and drill work. 

Point sparring I used as the lowest example of sparring I could find. Some of you use MMA training as the highest. Where does the majority fall in at? What do you do when you reach the age of 35+ and have actual jobs and life you need to be part of? 

I never said the way I train is perfect. Ever. I never said the way I train encompasses everything. Ever. What I did say is there are other ways to pressure test, there are other ways to become effective, maybe some are better or worse.

Paraphrase Andrew... stick with what you know and enjoy what you do...

I like that. 

As I have always said you can learn a hell of a lot from this board. A hell of a lot.


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 29, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I think Mr Green is talking about hardcore groundfighting (think UFC) rather then stand up joint locking into takedowns stuff. There is a big diiference.


well, for the record, it wasnt stand up joint locking leading to takedowns. that of course was practiced but, the majority of our fighting was done on the ground unless it was specified before hand that we were not allowed to go down.
we did this on a concrete floor without pads. if you got punched or kicked in the face, it hurt. you learned to fall properly as a means of preservation, you learned to block and evade as a means of preservation.
we were taught this way because he thought that was the only way to learn.......that was the way he was taught. 
not too many people stuck around for a long time, because quite frankly, you left just about every class wondering if you were going to show up for the next one.
lots of "tough guys" showed up to try out their stuff.....some liked it, others didnt.
yeah, you could call what we did sparring......but its nothing like the sparring i see going on at other places.


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## Doc (Sep 29, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> well, for the record, it wasnt stand up joint locking leading to takedowns. that of course was practiced but, the majority of our fighting was done on the ground unless it was specified before hand that we were not allowed to go down.
> we did this on a concrete floor without pads. if you got punched or kicked in the face, it hurt. you learned to fall properly as a means of preservation, you learned to block and evade as a means of preservation.
> we were taught this way because he thought that was the only way to learn.......that was the way he was taught.
> not too many people stuck around for a long time, because quite frankly, you left just about every class wondering if you were going to show up for the next one.
> ...


I wouldn't call that "sparring" - That's some serious training. 

I think most of the differences here are semantical. What is generally called "sparring" I don't think you or I do.


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## MJS (Sep 29, 2005)

IMO, you're going to get out of it what you put into it.  This not only goes for sparring, but for all aspects of training.  What is the goal?  Once that has been determined, we can adjust the training accordingly.

Mike


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## Doc (Sep 29, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> IMO, you're going to get out of it what you put into it.  This not only goes for sparring, but for all aspects of training.  What is the goal?  Once that has been determined, we can adjust the training accordingly.
> 
> Mike


Which is why I select my students, and unfortunately reject many.


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 29, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Which is why I select my students, and unfortunately reject many.


have you selected students, only to reject them later because they couldnt cut the mustard?


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## Doc (Sep 29, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> have you selected students, only to reject them later because they couldnt cut the mustard?


No sir. I've never had to dismiss anyone, but my screening process is fairly thorough. Interview and personality assessment, preliminary civil and criminal background check, etc. The majority of my students are well educated professionals from various fields heavily represented by law enforcement, who know what they're getting into. I'm forced by the curriculum to exclude children, and all those who might have an adverse effect to physical, and emotional stress, as well as academic deficiences. I'm fortunate to have that luxury because the school is not designed to be a primary source of income, but only support its own function and structure. I have never taught any other way. Lucky me.


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## goshawk (Sep 29, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> The average boxer, on the other hand, has 3 to 4 good punches he's worked ad nauseum, and has worked out throwing them, hard, while someone else is throwing them at him. He CAN hurt me, and he CAN continue to think on his feet while I hurt him...an ability I think the average kenpoists loses right after they get their melon rung for the first time in a fight. Especially guys who have never sparred.


I think you have a good point here. Thinking back to my first few weeks of sparring, I remember how totally shocking it was sometimes. I mean, I'd never been hit in my entire life, and those gloves didn't help the impact one bit. My first bloody nose was almost totally disheartening.

Then I got used to it. If I've taken anything out of sparring, it's being just a little more comfortable with the idea of people throwing punches at me _to connect_. That's experience I never would have found elsewhere, short of a real SD situation. I fully acknowledge that sparring isn't a real fight, and that the adrenal dump isn't generally a factor in the dojo, but I don't think that's grounds for doing away with it as a tool. And forgive me, but I'm rather glad that my bloody nose initiation was given by a sparring partner, rather than someone wanting my wallet.



> Sparring is, essentially, wind-sprints with bruising.


::laaaaaughing:: That may just be the best description I've yet heard.


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## The Kai (Sep 30, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> well, for the record, it wasnt stand up joint locking leading to takedowns. that of course was practiced but, the majority of our fighting was done on the ground unless it was specified before hand that we were not allowed to go down.
> we did this on a concrete floor without pads. if you got punched or kicked in the face, it hurt. you learned to fall properly as a means of preservation, you learned to block and evade as a means of preservation.
> we were taught this way because he thought that was the only way to learn.......that was the way he was taught.
> not too many people stuck around for a long time, because quite frankly, you left just about every class wondering if you were going to show up for the next one.
> ...


 
Should'nt sparring complement your training and not be an end it?


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 30, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Should'nt sparring complement your training and not be an end it?


i guess that all depends on what you're trying to get out of it.

because my first exposure to fighting was a little bit different than what i experienced in other schools after.......i thought the other method of training was lacking in some serious realism.

even after the training i did.....i still had my own doubts as to the effectiveness of "my" self defense, though, it never failed me when i had to put it into action.
my only problem with the approach that some schools take towards sparring is that sparring IS the "be all, end all" of training and that it is a true gauge of your abilities.

i think this gives people a false sense of their capabilties. taking one in the noodle while sparring is nothing like taking one in the head from someone that wants to hurt you ......as you well know from one of your previous posts. sure, it gets you used to being hit, and having things thrown at you, and maybe you get to throw out a few rapid fire punches. you start to think to yourself, "yeah, im one bad dude."

the first time someone grabs you by the throat will shock the crap out of you. as he lines you up for reconstructive dental surgery you decide to throw a few quick shots in his direction, patting down his face like a massage therapist...........because this is your first instinct that you have learned through repeated sparring sessions in which the goal was to hit and score on your opponent (it may hurt a bit, but you werent trying to take your sparring partners head off). this leads to having to re-group and trying all over. you have already lost the precious seconds needed to thwart the attack and now find yourself in a position that requires different measures.

thats my problem with sparring.

i dont intend on fighting in a cage or a ring.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 30, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i think this gives people a false sense of their capabilties. taking one in the noodle while sparring is nothing like taking one in the head from someone that wants to hurt you ......as you well know from one of your previous posts. sure, it gets you used to being hit, and having things thrown at you, and maybe you get to throw out a few rapid fire punches. you start to think to yourself, "yeah, im one bad dude."


 Spar harder, and if it is a real concern, compete.  Then you will have a very skilled fighter trying to knock your head off.



> the first time someone grabs you by the throat will shock the crap out of you.


 I'm sorry, No one ever grabs you buy the throat in sparring?

 Why not?

 The less restrictions you place on sparring, the more effective it is.  If you remove all grabbing and stop as soon as someone hits the ground, don't make contact etc.  You are missing a good chunk of the benefit sparring has to offer.



> you have learned through repeated sparring sessions in which the goal was to hit and score on your opponent (it may hurt a bit, but you werent trying to take your sparring partners head off).


 So gab some 16 oz gloves & headgear and spar harder.  


 You cannot judge the value of sparring based on one method, expecially a highly restrictive and light contact method.  Doing so would be like judging the effectiveness of Kata based only on Sport Karate Creative forms.  I'd imagine most Traditional Stylists would object to such a comparrison?


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## The Kai (Sep 30, 2005)

If someone grabs you by the throat and you massage thier face, your problem ain't sparring.  If in spite of yor fear, anger and adreline you still manage to hold your strikes back you really should not blame sparring.  A couple of the years ago the regional point sparring champs had a reputation as feared fighters inside or outside the dojo-good thing they were holding back 

Training with full force takedowns and full contact grappling/wrestling on acement floor in conjection with full strenght kicks and punchs to the head, man the injury rate had to be incredible.  I know when I was coming up Sensei could pretty much stop me in my tracks with a punch to the body, and that was with a glove on-I can't imagine how it would be if he took his fist and smashed my face, so the back of my head would crack onto the concrete!


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## Andrew Green (Sep 30, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Sensei could pretty much stop me in my tracks with a punch to the body, and that was with a glove on


 No offence here, but I'm sure there are a lot of boxers that can punch a lot harder then your instructor, they all manage to train hard.

 What kind of glove was he wearing?  Are you used to full contact training and do you have the conditioning and the experience to absorb heavy blows to the midsection?




			
				The Kai said:
			
		

> -I can't imagine how it would be if he took his fist and smashed my face, so the back of my head would crack onto the concrete!


 Once again, there are many full contact fighters that can I would imagine hit a lot harder, yet fights don't end after one punch.

 As for your floor, that is an equipment issue.  Get some good mats.  You wouldn't spar without a cup and mouthguard right?  Mats are no different when working a good chunk of the things related to fighting.


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 30, 2005)

andrew, my whole point is about removing restrictions.
im not talking about competition.
im not talking about gloves, headgear, and cauliflower ears.
im talking about self defense.
training for competition of any sort will help you with stamina, and MMA is the big deal now. some of those guys are tough hombre's. but the fact remains, not all guys that study MMA's are tough hombre's.......if you want to practice for competition, then you use that method. if you want to practice in order to save your own life, or to protect your family, i believe it requires a different kind of training that one doesnt see very much anymore.

back to the very first question on the thread, which i dont think i answered.

get out of the way of speeding cars.


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## The Kai (Sep 30, 2005)

Unfortunatly the day of exageratted step thru punchs, overly obvious garb attacks are gone.  Sparring is not a end all by a means to the end


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 30, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I can't imagine how it would be if he took his fist and smashed my face, so the back of my head would crack onto the concrete!


tuck your chin!


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## Andrew Green (Sep 30, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> andrew, my whole point is about removing restrictions.


 That's good, that's what needs to be done...



> im not talking about competition.


 Ok.



> im not talking about gloves, headgear, and cauliflower ears.


 Well, equipment dictates what you can and can't do safely in training, so it is rather relevant.  Not sure where cauliflower ears came from though...



> im talking about self defense.


 If you like.



> training for competition of any sort will help you with stamina,


 Tactics change, not much else.  Competition training means adding things like ring work, scoring points in case of decision, watching round times, etc.



> and MMA is the big deal now.


 Which begs the question, why?

 MMA is nothing new, it's just new here.  Pankration goes all the way back to the ancient Olympics.  



> not all guys that study MMA's are tough hombre's.......


 Same for anything else...

 But anybody that spars hard, is gonna get fairly tough.



> if you want to practice for competition, then you use that method. if you want to practice in order to save your own life, or to protect your family,


 Then go to University, get a better job, move to a nicer area and install a security system.  Much more effective then learning empty handed fighting.

 It has nothing to do with competition, it has to do with getting effective.  Boxers, Wrestlers, Judo, Football players, Hockey players, etc.  All train in basically the same way.  Why?  Because it works, and it works well, so far we haven't found a way that works better.

 If training to fight in a ring under time limits and judges isn't your thing, then don't train for those things.  But the training methods stay the same, just the tactics differ.  Want to throw weapons in there, go for it, we do.  It's good fun, and teaches you a lot about weapons fighting (Like, if you do it you will get hit / cut, it's just a matter of how many times and how bad)

 Want multiple attackers, do that.  Same method, tactics will differ though.

 Want eye gouges?  Get some googles or masks and go for it.

 Sparring is not something that has to follow competition rules.  Even MMA rules can be broken in sparring.


> i believe it requires a different kind of training that one doesnt see very much anymore.


 Such as?


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## The Kai (Sep 30, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> tuck your chin!


  Tucking your chin would be a great way to stop from your head snapping back into the mat during the fall, but when a guy is crunching a fist into your face the force of the punch would pretty much give your head the basketball effect, if not cause you to lose consciousness and then you get your head bounced.  Wow! On a concrete floor what if a punch misses or richochets off your melon, knuckles on concrete!


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 30, 2005)

i guess that depends on whether or not you let someone crunch a fist into your face.
has it happened? you bet.
did it happen often? nope......you learn to keep your hands up.
have i lost consciousness during class and hit my head on the floor?......yep, and it wasnt pretty but it was what i signed up for.
have my knuckles hit the floor? indeed, hurts like hell. along with knees, heels, face and elbows.
i never had any teeth knocked out or had any limbs broken.......but ive had my nose mashed into my face on a few occasions which has resulted in a funny looking offset.

my whole point, todd, you get out what you put in.......you'll only get punched in the face until you start learning how to get out of the way or keep your hands up.
the sadistic way i was taught may seem out of line with the way people go about it now, but it is no different than how the pioneers of jujutsu, karate, and more recently kajukenbo learned how to fight.
there are still teachers out there that use this method........they just dont have a whole lot of students.


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## The Kai (Sep 30, 2005)

Even monkeys fall out of trees, right so even the most expert of anybody gets caught with a punch once in a while.  Thinking of a full power, bare knuckled punch while I have my back to the floor-Kinda Scary-Well i imagine what would be the liabilty rates be like, how easy would it be to sue someone who did'nt take any precautions for the safety of his students, I imagine that you guys had people going to the hospital at a pretty good clip! Was there ever a lawsuit? 

In the old days the KaJu crowd banged without gear on, because there was no gear!
Something that always has me scratch my head, Hanshi made a name in sparring, in fact still does spar (at least until a few years ago)-and a couple of years back actually promoted a tournament with his annual gathering. Yet, the average sksk guy refuses to spar. Most odd.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 30, 2005)

Anybody that claims they don't get hit never spars/fights.

 It's one of the guarantees of fighting, you WILL get hit.


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 30, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Well i imagine what would be the liabilty rates, how easy would it be to sue someone who did'nt take any precautions for the safety of his students, I imagine that you guys had people going to the hospital at a pretty good clip! Was there ever a lawsuit?
> 
> 
> In the old days the KaJu crowd banged without gear on, because there was no gear!
> Something that alwys has me scratch my head, Hanshi made a name sparring, in fact still does spar (at least until a few years ago)-and a couple of years back actually promoted a tournament with his annual gathering. Yet, the average sksk guy refuses to spar. Most odd.


we signed a waiver before we started training and it was done in his basement.
there is a certain amount of trust that one puts in his teacher. i was told i would get hurt......but we were learning how to fight and thats what happens. you knew what you were in for before you even stepped into the dojo. i would imagine if someone was killed there would be a lawsuit, but the reality is.....you made a decision to give informed consent to have someone teach you, understanding the pros and cons of the method.
plenty of people watched before they made up their mind.

when i look back on it, it doesnt seem as hard as it might sound, simply because that was our normal routine.

ive never been to one of the SKSK gatherings.....i cant afford such luxury.
as for the SKSK people that i train with......we never really sparred either.
as with any group.....there are some pretty wishy washy teachers out there. there is only so much you can do in a commercial environment.
ive learned a lot by studying kosho.......but the classes i attended were pretty tame compared to what i was used to.


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## MJS (Sep 30, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Should'nt sparring complement your training and not be an end it?



Absolutely!  Its only one part of the training.  However we're gearing our training is IMO how we should be gearing our sparring.  There are other things though that should be addressed in ones training other than sparring.

Mike


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## The Kai (Sep 30, 2005)

Waivers protect from reasonable risks if a court decides that you were put through unreasonable risks. Holding Classes in his basement-now his house is up for grabs. Unfortunatly any injury, short term or life long as a result of unreasonable risks would be grounds for a lawsuit.


Did you guys were mouth pieces and cups at least?

If this was how you trained every day there must be a ton of trauma injuries as well as overuse or stress injuries

Irronically with the right incorporation papers to protect his personall assets, a comercial location would probably be better protection!

So Hanshi is wrong for sparring?


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 30, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Waivers protect from reasonable risks if a court decides that you were put through unreasonable risks. Holding Classes in his basement-now his house is up for grabs. Unfortunatly any injury, short term or life long as a result of unreasonable risks would be grounds for a lawsuit.
> 
> 
> Did you guys were mouth pieces and cups at least?
> ...


todd, would you sign up for a class knowing injury was imminent and then turn around and sue that same teacher for being injured?
less than honourable, if you ask me.......no one forced you to play.

im sure thats why Doc goes through what he does with prospective students.......to weed out the hackers, which the martial arts world is full of.

if you were to teach like that in a commercial location.....im sure you would spend most of your time staring into the big fancy mirror on the dojo wall.

is learning how to fight or how to end another persons life reasonable?


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## The Kai (Sep 30, 2005)

DEpending on the extent of the injuries, if you are out of work for a while you kinda "have" too.


You guys at least wore a cup and a mouthguard, right?


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## kempoguy71 (Sep 30, 2005)

I've read bits and pieces of this thread and it seems that there's an incongruence regarding the term "sparring". 

How do people here define "sparring"?

In my opinon, sparring for sport (e.g. point-sparring) vs. sparring for self-defense purposes are two different things. (Fwiw, my opinion is that sparring for sport is not conducive to actual skill in self-defense. In other words, it could be counter-productive to learning how to defend yourself).

Also, sparring could mean a free flow sparring (e.g a "fight") where two people square off (mutually agreeing to fight like in NHB, Boxing etc.) vs. self-defense type sparring.

For me "sparring" (free flow and self-defense) is part of the training process, not a means to an end. It is a way to train your fear reactivity, i.e. how to cope with your flinch reflex and adrenal response. This type of training (again imho) should be done at various speeds, such as slow movement sparring (without changing physics, i.e. track someones head by changing your force vector in the middle of your strike, which would be impossible at full speed); free-flow sparring in a NHB type environment with striking, clinching and grappling if appropriate; to full contact training wearing something like Tony Blauer's 'High Gear'.

Again, this type of training should not replace your other training (including solo forms training), but should be an important aspect of your training.

Here's an example of what I mean by 'self-defense type sparring':

When training for self-defense we frequently simulate a potential 'self-defense scenarios'. By the way, for this type of training you "MUST" suit up in protective gear, we use "Hi Gear" for those who may be familiar (which is a body armor along with a facemask / helmet), as it can be rather dangerous. 

In any event, let me give you an example of what happened during one of these simulations (an actual event). One of the scenarios we often introduce is a simulation where the "victim" is standing by an ATM (ok, so we pretended it's an ATM). 

The simulation started with the would-be attacker walking up to the victim. After a verbal exchange between the two (the attacker was distracting him) another guy, the accomplice, came up behind the victim. Who by the way was unaware this was going to happen (in other words it was not pre-arranged).   

Now this is where things got interesting... 
 
The accomplice rushed the victim for a takedown from behind. (Keep in mind all the participants are wearing "armor" and this is 'anything goes' type of training). Somehow the victim managed to free himself (it wasn't pretty but resembled one of our techniques) and managed to cut the first guy off in mid-stride with a heelpalm strike to the helmet (it was to his jaw and knocked the guy out cold for a few seconds)... and at the same time managed to distract the accomplice enough to get out of the 'area' (which is what we always suggest in a self-defense scenario). 

As a side note, I found it interesting that contrary to popular belief (in particular by the BJJ crowd) our simulations only went to the ground 30% of the time... 

As you can see, this has very little to do with point-sparring, yet it is sparring nontheless. I personally feel that if someone is serious about DEFENDING themselves, they ought to take the proper precautionary measures and train to defend themselves by training alive against fully resistant opponents using the technology available (the protective armor and training methods) to its fullest extent.

Just some thoughts from the cheapseats...

KG


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 30, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> DEpending on the extent of the injuries, if you are out of work for a while you kinda "have" too.
> 
> 
> *You guys at least wore a cup and a mouthguard, right*?


no and no.


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## The Kai (Oct 2, 2005)

No Cup< No mouthguard Full Contact strikes being delivered when on your back on a concrete floor.  I don't think there is liability waiver that would get you out of a lawsuit!

Also I imagine given the injury rates that most students would be short timers!


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