# McDojos



## Azulx (Apr 24, 2016)

I was thinking about this earlier: McDojos seem to be common in the west, but how common are Mcdojos in the eastern countries?


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 25, 2016)

My guess it that it is catching on, considering they can be bit more American than the Americans, sometimes.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 25, 2016)

Azulx said:


> I was thinking about this earlier: McDojos seem to be common in the west, but how common are Mcdojos in the eastern countries?


I cannot say with certainty, but sometimes I watch NHK Channel on TV ( I rarely watch TV at all, it's a mind killer). They had a segment on a Ninja camp (sorry Ninja guys) that appeared to be the Japanese equivalent to a Dude Ranch. It was crap. Run by Japanese but appeared to be for Westerners. They practiced making themselves invisible by holding up cloths, rolling in the dirt and jumping up into a sword cut. Catching swords, that kind of thing. One guy said he'd been attending for two week stints for ten years.


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## WaterGal (Apr 25, 2016)

Good question!

I'm curious what specifically you mean by McDojo here, though.  Do you mean a school that's mostly focused on making a lot of money, or a school that has poor standards (or the instructor is not qualified, teaches a made-up style, etc)?  People everywhere want to make money, but I imagine the latter may be more of a problem in America than in the places where the styles are from.   

Edit:  But I know there are some people on here that could give us better answers!


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 25, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> Good question!
> 
> I'm curious what specifically you mean by McDojo here, though.  Do you mean a school that's mostly focused on making a lot of money, or a school that has poor standards (or the instructor is not qualified, teaches a made-up style, etc)?  People everywhere want to make money, but I imagine the latter may be more of a problem in America than in the places where the styles are from.
> 
> Edit:  But I know there are some people on here that could give us better answers!



That really is a good question.

I understand that the original reference was to McDonalds restaurant chain, which brings with it a whole raft of notions.  World-wide, immensely successful, profitable, iconic, standardized... and also low-quality overall, drives local competitors under, etc.

So which do we mean when we call a Dojo a 'McDojo'?

I am of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with running a dojo for profit.  It's a business, like any other, and those who invest their time and energy into building a business should be able to extract a living from it.  However, the danger is that dojos run for profit run the risk of sacrificing quality.

One might say that you're not going to get a gourmet meal at McDonalds, but you will fill your belly and survive.  Likewise, you may learn reasonable martial arts at a McDojo, but you may not get a fuller, deeper, understanding of the martial arts at one.

Now, maybe people who go to McDonalds go there because that's what they want and they get what they expect to get.  But not all martial arts students may be aware that they may not be getting a 'McDonalds hamburger' at a McDojo.  They may think they are getting a gourmet meal.

That, in my opinion, is a problem.  No one is going to say "Hey, I am teaching a scaled-down, rudimentary form of martial arts here, but I'm trying to make a living.  We are going to have fun, go to local tournaments, and learn some fancy kicks and spins and such, but we're not going to get into the deeper aspects of the art."

Just some 'food' for thought, so to speak.


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## Azulx (Apr 25, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> That really is a good question.
> 
> I understand that the original reference was to McDonalds restaurant chain, which brings with it a whole raft of notions. World-wide, immensely successful, profitable, iconic, standardized... and also low-quality overall, drives local competitors under, etc.
> 
> ...



My instructor described to me his experience with a McDojo chain and it was as follows: 7 year olds can get full 1st dans, His son got a full 2nd dan by the age of 12. What I mean by full is that 7 year olds are seen as actual black belts, not junior black belts. They help with testing and sit at the judges table etc. Fees for everything. He said he never actually saw his instructor do anything but tell lower ranks to teach him. Most of the time his 7th degree master instructor was in his office eating salad. No quality in instruction, like I said 12 year old assistant instructors teaching adults martial arts. Are there these kind of dojos in Asia?


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 25, 2016)

Azulx said:


> My instructor described to me his experience with a McDojo chain and it was as follows: 7 year olds can get full 1st dans, His son got a full 2nd dan by the age of 12. What I mean by full is that 7 year olds are seen as actual black belts, not junior black belts. They help with testing and sit at the judges table etc. Fees for everything. He said he never actually saw his instructor do anything but tell lower ranks to teach him. Most of the time his 7th degree master instructor was in his office eating salad. No quality in instruction, like I said 12 year old assistant instructors teaching adults martial arts. Are there these kind of dojos in Asia?



No idea.


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## Buka (Apr 25, 2016)

Azulx said:


> My instructor described to me his experience with a McDojo chain and it was as follows: 7 year olds can get full 1st dans, His son got a full 2nd dan by the age of 12. What I mean by full is that 7 year olds are seen as actual black belts, not junior black belts. They help with testing and sit at the judges table etc. Fees for everything. He said he never actually saw his instructor do anything but tell lower ranks to teach him. Most of the time his 7th degree master instructor was in his office eating salad. No quality in instruction, like I said 12 year old assistant instructors teaching adults martial arts. Are there these kind of dojos in Asia?



I have no idea, seems unlikely. But I imagine if there were, they'd probably be teaching affluent Americans.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2016)

Azulx said:


> I was thinking about this earlier: McDojos seem to be common in the west, but how common are Mcdojos in the eastern countries?


I'm going to say that it's probably just as common there.  Maybe even more so


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2016)

Some people have said that those type of schools were discussed in The Book of Five Rings.  I haven't read the book so maybe someone can verify.  My personal opinion is that there are always "snake oil salesmen" out there selling some mystical medicine so I don't say why martial arts schools would be safe from some scams.  Chinese and Japanese ancient cultures included magic and all sorts of crazy stuff.  It only seems natural that criminals would use martial arts schools rip people off.


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 26, 2016)

There are plenty of Korean tkd schools that people would label as mcdojos. The first problem, as I see it, is that virtually no one sees their school as a mcdojo. It's always the school down the street (especially if they have more students than you). I don't believe more than a tiny number of people are intentionally "ripping off" their students, but everyone has a story about a crappy student transferring in from another school. 

The second problem, again as I see it, is that too many people believe that profitable business model equals mcdojo. Schools with programs in place to retain students and add profit often get a bad rap. I can think of positive points for just about any programs schools use. Too often, martial arts is like politics: if you don't agree with me, you're wrong!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 26, 2016)

Oh the infamous mcdojo...I Would say if the Windows are lined with trophies from tournaments. It's a mcdogo


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 26, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> Oh the infamous mcdojo...I Would say if the Windows are lined with trophies from tournaments. It's a mcdogo


What do trophies from competition have to do with being a mcdojo?


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## Azulx (Apr 26, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> What do trophies from competition have to do with being a mcdojo?



Yeah.... I don't get that reference either. McDojos for me , are school with lack of training and good instruction. Also fees that are unnecessary.


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## GiYu - Todd (Apr 27, 2016)

Azulx said:


> My instructor described to me his experience with a McDojo chain and it was as follows: 7 year olds can get full 1st dans, His son got a full 2nd dan by the age of 12. What I mean by full is that 7 year olds are seen as actual black belts, not junior black belts. They help with testing and sit at the judges table etc. Fees for everything. He said he never actually saw his instructor do anything but tell lower ranks to teach him. Most of the time his 7th degree master instructor was in his office eating salad. No quality in instruction, like I said 12 year old assistant instructors teaching adults martial arts. Are there these kind of dojos in Asia?


I had one student leave our school when they realized how hard it was and how long it would take to get a black belt (4-5 years is pretty standard, with four 1.5 hour classes per week), and go to another dojo in town that will "guarantee" you a black belt in twelve months, only requiring two one-hour classes per week.  Of course they have testing every couple weeks, with a $300/month membership, $100-200 test fee each test, and a special $1000 test fee for shodan... for a total of around $12,000.  THAT school is a classic McDojo.  (Of course, P.T. Barnum is probably smiling down at that school's ingenuity for making a buck).


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## donald1 (Apr 27, 2016)

Personally ive always enjoyed mcdojos. They teach valuable lessons.
1. Techniques not to use
2. Consequences of using poor technique
3. Another reason to stay with your current dojo (if its a good one)
Ps. They make excellent sparring partners.(they make for great uke partners)


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## JR 137 (Apr 27, 2016)

It seems more common here in the US than abroad, but unless someone has spent substantial time in a number of countries, there isn't really a definitive answer.

I think there's several reasons why McDojos exist...

1. Ignorance to what good instruction is.  Without any experience in the MA and not shopping around/visiting multiple schools, it's easier to fall into this trap.

2. A lot of people aren't looking for a martial art in a true sense; they're looking for recreation.  Group exercise, socializing, etc.; being able to say "I know x MA is icing on the cake.

3. Especially for kids, MA is usually recreation.  Pick the school that's closest and most conducive schedule.  Pick one that also has "Parents' night out," movie night, fun trips, after school program, etc.  It's like a YMCA membership, only they're learning "Self Defense" and competing too.

4. The instant gratification society.  If school A can get me to black belt in 1-2 years, they must have better teaching methods than school B that'll get me to black belt in 4-5 years.  If you have no idea that they're watering down the curriculum, and think a black belt means the same thing everywhere you go, why would you take 5 years to accomplish the same thing that'll take you a year somewhere else? Wouldn't you rather a Bachelors degree in 1 year rather than 4?

Then there's target advertising.  Send out fliers to schools in the area, offering discounts to kids at that school.  Get parents who'd like their kids involved in something.  Then their friends are going there, and your kid wants to go there too.  Then there's a van that picks them up directly from school, has a homework area so the parents don't have to deal with that, and the kids are tired out by the time you pick them up on your way home from work.  Add to that that they're becoming "bully proof" and learning "self discipline" "focus" and all the other catch-phrases, and they'll gladly fork over a couple hundred bucks a month.  It's cheaper than daycare.

There's a place 2 blocks away from the school I teach at (academic school, not MA) that fits this mold perfectly.  They're a big hit.  This is great so long as the MA instruction is good.  Their instruction is as horrible as their business methods are good.  Most classes are taught by senior students are are about 15 years old or so.


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 27, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> What do trophies from competition have to do with being a mcdojo?





Jaeimseu said:


> What do trophies from competition have to do with being a mcdojo?


To much focus on point fighting. Its not bad to receive or have a trophy, But if the school is lined with such awards, those who are more concerned with self defense. Should be careful. People definitely have different opinions on what mcdojos are and are not.


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 27, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> To much focus on point fighting. Its not bad to receive or have a trophy, But if the school is lined with such awards, those who are more concerned with self defense. Should be careful. People definitely have different opinions on what mcdojos are and are not.


I agree that lots of people make up their own definition for words. Anyway, why do trophies have to mean point fighting? There are many forms of competition. 

Are all schools that don't have self-defense as the primary focus mcdojos?


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## lklawson (Apr 27, 2016)

Maybe I'm just in one of "those" moods, but why do I care about McDojos?

No one can seem to agree on what exactly one is any how.

Just teach good stuff and stop worrying about what other people are doing Gladys.  

OK, I *know* I'm in one of "those" moods.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Apr 27, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> a couple hundred bucks a month.  It's cheaper than daycare.


What daycare are you sending your kids too?!?!  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 27, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Maybe I'm just in one of "those" moods, but why do I care about McDojos?
> 
> No one can seem to agree on what exactly one is any how.
> 
> ...



I think your mood is fine...
I think quality instruction is a Good Thing (tm), and bad instruction is not. But the only instruction I really have any control over is my own.
If someone is happy going to a school that guarantees X rank in Y time for S price with a passel of 8 year old black belts, then that's fine. I know for a fact that we've had more than one person leave specifically because we are NOT that type of school. One woman came in with her 7 year old, and flat out told me she expected him to be a black belt by the time he was 9. I told her up front - ain't going to happen. She left. I hope they're happy.


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 27, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> I agree that lots of people make up their own definition for words. Anyway, why do trophies have to mean point fighting? There are many forms of competition.
> 
> Are all schools that don't have self-defense as the primary focus mcdojos?


I believe schools who gear their students towards tournaments, are mcdojos..if that is the primary concept. I have noticed that they seem to be teaching two different methods. Freestyle and kata. Really should a person be thrown into a fight or sparring session before they understand the basic use of the technique they are are learning through form and application? 

Its simply something I disagree with.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 27, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> I believe schools who gear their students towards tournaments, are mcdojos..if that is the primary concept.



So Judo, BJJ and Kendo schools are all McDojos by your definition. Interesting. Weird, but interesting.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 27, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> I believe schools who gear their students towards tournaments, are mcdojos..if that is the primary concept. I have noticed that they seem to be teaching two different methods. Freestyle and kata. Really should a person be thrown into a fight or sparring session before they understand the basic use of the technique they are are learning through form and application?
> 
> Its simply something I disagree with.




I cannot wait for the reveal on this. 

I expect either a BJJ/MMA guy is looking to try and tell everyone they are wrong, or a street fighter, looking to make some points that people do not train for the real self defense,  (* Which is more mental and being aware - to your other comments on other threads *) and or just an opinionated person who might have some ideas, and could be part of some good discussions if they just pulled their own foot out of their own mouth.


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 27, 2016)

Rich Parsons said:


> I cannot wait for the reveal on this.
> 
> I expect either a BJJ/MMA guy is looking to try and tell everyone they are wrong, or a street fighter, looking to make some points that people do not train for the real self defense,  (* Which is more mental and being aware - to your other comments on other threads *) and or just an opinionated person who might have some ideas, and could be part of some good discussions if they just pulled their own foot out of their own mouth.


You again...you couldn't be more wrong. Is that how this works...someone's opinion doesn't match yours and you attack?  You really need to get a thicker skin. I have practiced many arts But my base has always been of the karate family. Are you a diehard traditionalist and it can only be one way? My opinion on a matter is neither right or wrong. Its just an opinion. You sure do have a lot of anger and negativity about opinion. At least that is what I see in your comments so far.


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## lklawson (Apr 27, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> I believe schools who gear their students towards tournaments, are mcdojos.


Curse Muay Thai, Savate, and Boxing for their McDojoishness!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JR 137 (Apr 27, 2016)

lklawson said:


> What daycare are you sending your kids too?!?!
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Where I live, after school daycare (2-6ish, including pick-up) is about $400 a month.  I teach at my kids' school, so I don't have that bill.  A lot of people I know do.  Charging people $200 a month for after school MA is a good deal compared to the alternative.


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## lklawson (Apr 27, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> You again...you couldn't be more wrong. Is that how this works...someone's opinion doesn't match yours and you attack?


Hi.  Michael.  I'm Kirk.  Welcome to the Internet.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 27, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Curse Muay Thai, Savate, and Boxing for their McDojoishness!
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Sure If its geared at sport and a set of rules yes.


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## lklawson (Apr 27, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Where I live, after school daycare (2-6ish, including pick-up) is about $400 a month.


They're really sticking it to you.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Apr 27, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> Sure If its geared at sport and a set of rules yes.


We're trying to be nice, cloaking the critique in humor.  The point is, to be blunt, that your definition of "McDojo" automatically rules out many that are considered martial arts by almost everyone.  Now you're trying to go down the "martial sport" argument (we've all seen that many times before) but it still doesn't negate your comments on sport=McDojo.

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to find a way to rectify those two worlds or, quite honestly, not very many people on this forum will agree with you about much.

And that's about the nicest I can put it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JR 137 (Apr 27, 2016)

lklawson said:


> They're really sticking it to you.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Supply and demand.  I'm just fortunate to not be in the market.


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 27, 2016)

lklawson said:


> We're trying to be nice, cloaking the critique in humor.  The point is, to be blunt, that your definition of "McDojo" automatically rules out many that are considered martial arts by almost everyone.  Now you're trying to go down the "martial sport" argument (we've all seen that many times before) but it still doesn't negate your comments on sport=McDojo.
> 
> I'm sorry, but you're going to have to find a way to rectify those two worlds or, quite honestly, not very many people on this forum will agree with you about much.
> 
> ...


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 27, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> I have practiced many arts



And yet, when you were asked flat out about your training and experience, you dodged the question.
So, let's try it again...
How old are you? What is your martial arts training and experience?


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## lklawson (Apr 27, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> Just my opinion...I haven't attacked any individuals. I have stated my opinion. But It is an argument that should be discussed...


Why?  

What makes your argument worth discussing?  Personally, I don't think it bears much merit.



> regardless of whether or not people find it offensive.


What makes you think anyone is offended by your argument?  Just because they don't find much merit in it?  That doesn't mean anyone is offended.



> Now this next statement will definitely offend some people...
> 
> Is this forum based on Facebook where people are offended If it's not politically correct or not in agreement with the status quo.


Nah. Your statement doesn't offend, it seems to indicate you have a fundamental misunderstanding of this forum, its participants, and what constitutes "offended."



> Mostly I was speaking of the big chain dojos.


Are you now saying that "big chain dojos" = McDojo?



> If I have offended...its not my intention, although I stand by earlier comment of what a mcdojo is to me.


Unless you're feeling offended, no one here is.  And I can't tell whether or not you are. 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Apr 27, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> And yet, when you were asked flat out about your training and experience, you dodged the question.
> So, let's try it again...
> How old are you? What is your martial arts training and experience?


Which is less important than if his thesis can be defended logically and with facts.  

That said, there does seem to exist a certain pattern.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 27, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Which is less important than if his thesis can be defended logically and with facts.
> 
> That said, there does seem to exist a certain pattern.
> 
> ...



Oh, absolutely. I agree on both counts.

But I also think if he is going to bring up his training and experience, it's sort of silly to then refuse to provide information about what, exactly, that training and experience is.


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## lklawson (Apr 27, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Oh, absolutely. I agree on both counts.
> 
> But I also think if he is going to bring up his training and experience, it's sort of silly to then refuse to provide information about what, exactly, that training and experience is.


A fair point.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 27, 2016)

St


Dirty Dog said:


> And yet, when you were asked flat out about your training and experience, you dodged the question.
> So, let's try it again...
> How old are you? What is your martial arts training and experience?


Still reading the comments and trying to figure where I was asked flat out and where you all stated your credentials. Patience


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## WaterGal (Apr 27, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> What do trophies from competition have to do with being a mcdojo?



If anything, I'd say that winning a lot of trophies at regional and national tournaments (not "in-house tournaments") is a sign the school is _less _likely to be a Mcdojo.  It shows that the school produces students who are fairly skilled in that style - and also that the school isn't afraid to have their students see what other schools do, that the school encourages their students to go out and test what they've learned and see if it works.  Now, it could be that the style itself isn't very effective and the competitions for it are easy, but that's a different issue.


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 27, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Why?
> 
> What makes your argument worth discussing?  Personally, I don't think it bears much merit.
> 
> ...


Not offended a bit...I believe whether or not a dojo is geared for self defense or sport, holds a lot of merit. At least to the unknowing student that walks through the door. Most people do not walk in for sport, in my experience.


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 27, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> If anything, I'd say that winning a lot of trophies at regional and national tournaments (not "in-house tournaments") is a sign the school is _less _likely to be a Mcdojo.  It shows that the school produces students who are fairly skilled in that style - and also that the school isn't afraid to have their students see what other schools do, that the school encourages their students to go out and test what they've learned and see if it works.  Now, it could be that the style itself isn't very effective and the competitions for it are easy, but that's a different issue.


I do agree with your statement, concerning allowing students to check out other systems and schools. I half agree with the statement concerning trophies...if it's full contact.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 27, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> St
> 
> Still reading the comments and trying to figure where I was asked flat out and where you all stated your credentials. Patience



Tez3 wrote: 





> What is your experience in martial arts an what are the reasons for posting the OP?



To which you dodged: 





> My experience in the martial arts...hmmm..do you want dojo experiences or real life, as they are two entirely different things?



And then of course there is MY direct question (actually two questions), which you quoted in order to dodge yet again.

Dodging a direct question doesn't really help your credibility...
Answering questions helps people to understand your viewpoint.

The people who have been around a while have, generally, already answered questions about their training and experience, but you're certainly free to ask them to repeat old posts if you like.


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## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2016)

One of the reasons I asked for experience is that we often get college/school students asking similar questions and wanting our answers to use for their essays and projects instead of them doing the research. We also get martial arts students whose instructors require them to write essays for grading, they too should do their own research, many don't say until a lot later on that they want us to provide the info for them.
I don't usually mind providing info if people aren't being lazy, I just like to know why, I'm nosy. I was trained to be professionally nosy


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 27, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Tez3 wrote:
> 
> To which you dodged:
> 
> ...


I disagree...I responded with a question concerning two different scenarios. Which one are you asking for .... Dojo?

I trained in a system called Doshinkan..which was taught to me by my father...who learned from Watler Todd. It was eight years before I received a rank of Black belt (it's how he taught us kids) he wanted to make sure we understood the fundamentals. From there I trained with a fellow by the name of John Kurtz, who is experienced in, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, 5 animal kung fu and walked the circle continuously lol. I tried my hand at Amatuer kickboxing for a short time, unfortunately, there was Not a lot of interest in kickboxing in the area. At the completion of those systems, my new career took me all over the U.S. and I was fortunate enough to train in many systems, albeit not for extended periods. Most of the time it was trading systems with the instructors, tai chi seemed to be the most popular one amongst other instructors. Once I settled back into my hometown...I pretty much focused on the original system I was taught. Mostly because I liked the drills associated with it and it was my base art. I still do practice the kung fu I learned but not extensively. I enjoy pa kua quite a bit.


Tez3 said:


> One of the reasons I asked for experience is that we often get college/school students asking similar questions and wanting our answers to use for their essays and projects instead of them doing the research. We also get martial arts students whose instructors require them to write essays for grading, they too should do their own research, many don't say until a lot later on that they want us to provide the info for them.
> I don't usually mind providing info if people aren't being lazy, I just like to know why, I'm nosy. I was trained to be professionally nosy


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## JR 137 (Apr 27, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> Not offended a bit...I believe whether or not a dojo is geared for self defense or sport, holds a lot of merit. At least to the unknowing student that walks through the door. Most people do not walk in for sport, in my experience.



In my experience, it seems most people walk in for recreation, not self defense.  Recreation meaning exercise, socialization, stress relief, etc.  While most of us here are there for the combative aspects (self defense or whatever other semantic label they use) among other aspects as well, most aren't truly after the combative aspect IMO.


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## mograph (Apr 27, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> One of the reasons I asked for experience is that we often get college/school students asking similar questions and wanting our answers to use for their essays and projects instead of them doing the research.


Yeah. I'm not sure if citing our discussions on MT is very ... scholarly.
Nevertheless, for the students in the crowd, here's the MLA citation format:

Tez3. "McDojos." 27 Apr. 2016. MartialTalk General Martial Arts Talk Forum. 27 Apr. 2006.
 http://www.martialtalk.com/threads/mcdojos.120805/page-3


The corresponding APA format is left as an exercise for the student.


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## oaktree (Apr 27, 2016)

I really don't hate on mcdojo anymore then I parents feeding there kids McDonald's as long as the people involved know what it is they are getting and not thinking they are getting filet mignon. My nephew goes to a tkd mcdojo day care thing my sister pays $300 a month cause again after school care is ridiculously expensive and my sister is a teacher! So they do a good job, give him a snack, teach him so power ranger equivalent martial arts(not a knock at tkd only speaking about the kids class) and make sure he does his homework. It is a pretty good structure mcdojo program that address the kids needs  
When we go into the other direction of mcdojo with adults pretending what they are doing then yes it's a problem which is why people should investigate and research what they are getting into


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## WaterGal (Apr 27, 2016)

oaktree said:


> I really don't hate on mcdojo anymore then I parents feeding there kids McDonald's as long as the people involved know what it is they are getting and not thinking they are getting filet mignon. My nephew goes to a tkd mcdojo day care thing my sister pays $300 a month cause again after school care is ridiculously expensive and my sister is a teacher! So they do a good job, give him a snack, teach him so power ranger equivalent martial arts(not a knock at tkd only speaking about the kids class) and make sure he does his homework. It is a pretty good structure mcdojo program that address the kids needs



Personally, I'm always surprised/baffled/disappointed/angry when a martial arts school can have the kids on-site for _3 hours a day, 5 days a week _and not turn them into good martial artists for their age.  I know they're not training the whole time they're in aftercare, but presumably they take a class every day, right?  How can a teacher tolerate that their students come to class _every da_y for a year and they're still out of shape, can't spar for **** or do their forms right?  I'd be tearing my hair out, trying to figure out where we failed!


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## oaktree (Apr 27, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> Personally, I'm always surprised/baffled/disappointed/angry when a martial arts school can have the kids on-site for _3 hours a day, 5 days a week _and not turn them into good martial artists for their age.  I know they're not training the whole time they're in aftercare, but presumably they take a class every day, right?  How can a teacher tolerate that their students come to class _every da_y for a year and they're still out of shape, can't spar for **** or do their forms right?  I'd be tearing my hair out, trying to figure out where we failed!


Because it's a mcdojo it's Aim is to make money so it aim is not to teach martial arts but to make sure the parents are happy with the results.


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## JR 137 (Apr 27, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Because it's a mcdojo it's Aim is to make money so it aim is not to teach martial arts but to make sure the parents are happy with the results.



Yeah, but there's no shortage of the "soccer moms" (maybe McDojo moms?) telling each other how there kid's the best and how much the other mom's kid is improving.

I went to the aftercare McDojo near my work just to get a glimpse of what was really going on.  My head was pounding (not an exaggeration) after 5 minutes of the chaos of 4 classes going on at the same time on the same floor, and the housewives wearing their yoga clothes and drinking their venti soy lattes from Starbucks telling each other how great their kid is at everything.  Or maybe it was the dojo mascot bringing in the next group of kids from the playground out back.

I'd call what was going on on the floor a lot of things.  Effective martial arts isn't one of them.

Everyone's got to do what they've got to do.  I don't have much hate for that place, but I definitely chuckle when I hear about how good their black belts are.  I have a few of them in my science classes.


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## Tames D (Apr 27, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> I disagree...I responded with a question concerning two different scenarios. Which one are you asking for .... Dojo?
> 
> I trained in a system called Doshinkan..which was taught to me by my father...who learned from Watler Todd. It was eight years before I received a rank of Black belt (it's how he taught us kids) he wanted to make sure we understood the fundamentals. From there I trained with a fellow by the name of John Kurtz, who is experienced in, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, 5 animal kung fu and walked the circle continuously lol. I tried my hand at Amatuer kickboxing for a short time, unfortunately, there was Not a lot of interest in kickboxing in the area. At the completion of those systems, my new career took me all over the U.S. and I was fortunate enough to train in many systems, albeit not for extended periods. Most of the time it was trading systems with the instructors, tai chi seemed to be the most popular one amongst other instructors. Once I settled back into my hometown...I pretty much focused on the original system I was taught. Mostly because I liked the drills associated with it and it was my base art. I still do practice the kung fu I learned but not extensively. I enjoy pa kua quite a bit.


Welcome to MartialTalk Michael. You will find that new members get a lot of attention.


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## Buka (Apr 27, 2016)

oaktree said:


> I really don't hate on mcdojo anymore then I parents feeding there kids McDonald's as long as the people involved know what it is they are getting and not thinking they are getting filet mignon. My nephew goes to a tkd mcdojo day care thing my sister pays $300 a month cause again after school care is ridiculously expensive and my sister is a teacher! So they do a good job, give him a snack, teach him so power ranger equivalent martial arts(not a knock at tkd only speaking about the kids class) and make sure he does his homework. It is a pretty good structure mcdojo program that address the kids needs
> When we go into the other direction of mcdojo with adults pretending what they are doing then yes it's a problem which is why people should investigate and research what they are getting into



I never considered or thought about this. 

Damn you.


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> Personally, I'm always surprised/baffled/disappointed/angry when a martial arts school can have the kids on-site for _3 hours a day, 5 days a week _and not turn them into good martial artists for their age.  I know they're not training the whole time they're in aftercare, but presumably they take a class every day, right?  How can a teacher tolerate that their students come to class _every da_y for a year and they're still out of shape, can't spar for **** or do their forms right?  I'd be tearing my hair out, trying to figure out where we failed!



To my knowledge that's something we don't have here, we have after school clubs run by schools and charities plus we have child minders. They all have to be run according to government OFSTED standards and are inspected, a martial arts class wouldn't be within the parameters considered for child care. While we do have children's classes and I'm sure we have what you could call McDojos they are just teaching martial arts once a week perhaps twice for an hour approx. each time. Martial arts is still a predominately adult pastime/sport/hobby here.
Very few martial arts clubs (still predominately clubs not schools) have their own building, most teach in church halls, sports centres etc. We have a local club that teaches JKD, they are very good and do have their own building but the boss, the chief instructor still has a day job. there isn't a lot of money in martial arts here of any type.


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## RTKDCMB (Apr 28, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> Oh the infamous mcdojo...I Would say if the Windows are lined with trophies from tournaments. It's a mcdogo


If the trophies were fake then maybe, otherwise it might just mean that they are successful at tournaments. If you want to advertise goods or a service then you want to display what's good about it.


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## lklawson (Apr 28, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> Not offended a bit...I believe whether or not a dojo is geared for self defense or sport, holds a lot of merit.


Again, why does your argument merit any attention?



> At least to the unknowing student that walks through the door. Most people do not walk in for sport, in my experience.


And what is that experience again?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## oaktree (Apr 28, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Yeah, but there's no shortage of the "soccer moms" (maybe McDojo moms?) telling each other how there kid's the best and how much the other mom's kid is improving.
> 
> I went to the aftercare McDojo near my work just to get a glimpse of what was really going on.  My head was pounding (not an exaggeration) after 5 minutes of the chaos of 4 classes going on at the same time on the same floor, and the housewives wearing their yoga clothes and drinking their venti soy lattes from Starbucks telling each other how great their kid is at everything.  Or maybe it was the dojo mascot bringing in the next group of kids from the playground out back.
> 
> ...


A lot of the after school programs are teacher's bread and butter IF they teach martial arts as their sole source of income.
Doing the math $300. a month times 30 kids and you are making $9000 a month. Got a birthday how about a birthday party $300 extra for 3 hours. Also charge for moving up belts an extra $100 Summer camp we can ask for $350 or $400 because where else are you going to send your kid that also still makes them do school work summer school?!

I wonder if I should do this now that I think of it.....I don't mind selling my integrity making that much money I could always buy another one


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## lklawson (Apr 28, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> I disagree...I responded with a question concerning two different scenarios. Which one are you asking for .... Dojo?
> 
> I trained in a system called Doshinkan.


Perfect.  You should be aware that Doshinkan has been identified by some as a "McDojo" system.

This isn't "fraudbusting," just an example of what I'm talking about.  A guy in a thread about "McDojos," who is making accusations about "McDojos," is himself a member of a system accused of being a "McDojo."

That's just the way it is.  Somebody, somewhere, using their own definition, which seems logical to them, thinks [fill in the blank] martial art or dojo is a "McDojo."

It's pretty well become a meaningless pejorative.  Just train in what you're training, teach what you're teaching, and stop worrying about what everyone else is doing Gladys.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Apr 28, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> Personally, I'm always surprised/baffled/disappointed/angry when a martial arts school can have the kids on-site for _3 hours a day, 5 days a week _and not turn them into good martial artists for their age.  I know they're not training the whole time they're in aftercare, but presumably they take a class every day, right?  How can a teacher tolerate that their students come to class _every da_y for a year and they're still out of shape, can't spar for **** or do their forms right?  I'd be tearing my hair out, trying to figure out where we failed!


Replace martial arts with something else.  A foreign language, an instrument, or mathematics.  How good would you expect a child to be at piano?  I wouldn't expect concert capability.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## mograph (Apr 28, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Replace martial arts with something else.  [...] How good would you expect a child to be at piano?  I wouldn't expect concert capability.


Yep. Of course, that applies to the average child. Sure, there are prodigies and natural talents, but we shouldn't set the bar for child martial artists too high ... at least in an individualistic society.


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 28, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> In my experience, it seems most people walk in for recreation, not self defense.  Recreation meaning exercise, socialization, stress relief, etc.  While most of us here are there for the combative aspects (self defense or whatever other semantic label they use) among other aspects as well, most aren't truly after the combative aspect IMO.


Il


JR 137 said:


> In my experience, it seems most people walk in for recreation, not self defense.  Recreation meaning exercise, socialization, stress relief, etc.  While most of us here are there for the combative aspects (self defense or whatever other semantic label they use) among other aspects as well, most aren't truly after the combative aspect IMO.


I am not sure I agree wi


Tames D said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk Michael. You will find that new members get a lot of attention.
> View attachment 19849


Thank you and hello too you. I figured that I was being taken through a ringer. But, I didn't mind. It let me know that this forum is serious...people who love the arts tend to be protective of what they have done, do and believe. I rather enjoyed it.


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 28, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Perfect.  You should be aware that Doshinkan has been identified by some as a "McDojo" system.
> 
> This isn't "fraudbusting," just an example of what I'm talking about.  A guy in a thread about "McDojos," who is making accusations about "McDojos," is himself a member of a system accused of being a "McDojo."
> 
> ...


Well according to varying opinions...it seems that we all belong to mcdojos. Lol. But such is the nature of the martial arts.


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 28, 2016)

As a matter of fact, I recently visited a Doshinkan dojo in the area, while wanting a place to socialize, I wanted something that focused on traditional values...just let me say that a lot has changed. Great atmosphere but young blackbelts and it looked to me like a few 12 yr old black belts were roaming around, teaching lower level. The instructor was great But you could tell it was geared towards kids. A few of the things they did, and didn't do, were different than what I had learned. I didn't see any two man promise fights within the white belts training curriculum. Seen them sparring, fully padded, which isn't bad, it just something we never used.


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## Blindside (Apr 28, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Replace martial arts with something else.  A foreign language, an instrument, or mathematics.  How good would you expect a child to be at piano?  I wouldn't expect concert capability.



In speaking with gymnastics coaches, the young women who aspire to get to college scholarship level in gymnastics are on the floor roughly 20 hours per week.  Olympics is something like 40.  So if you have a kid in a "martial arts" 15 hours per week, I would expect some pretty good things.  Watching even the average 15 year old do gymnastics at a local club who has just 5 years of 20 hours per week training is impressive.  You almost never see anything comparable coming out of these martial arts after school programs.


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## mograph (Apr 28, 2016)

Blindside said:


> ... the young women *who aspire to get to college scholarship level* in gymnastics are on the floor roughly 20 hours per week.


That kind of focus and dedication is key, isn't it?


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 28, 2016)

Blindside said:


> In speaking with gymnastics coaches, the young women who aspire to get to college scholarship level in gymnastics are on the floor roughly 20 hours per week.  Olympics is something like 40.  So if you have a kid in a "martial arts" 15 hours per week, I would expect some pretty good things.  Watching even the average 15 year old do gymnastics at a local club who has just 5 years of 20 hours per week training is impressive.  You almost never see anything comparable coming out of these martial arts after school programs.



I suspect that one major difference here is that you're talking about kids who have a passion, a devotion, and already proven gift for gymnastics. Other people are talking about kids whose parents drop them off for baby sitting.


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2016)

Blindside said:


> In speaking with gymnastics coaches, the young women who aspire to get to college scholarship level in gymnastics are on the floor roughly 20 hours per week.  Olympics is something like 40.  So if you have a kid in a "martial arts" 15 hours per week, I would expect some pretty good things.  Watching even the average 15 year old do gymnastics at a local club who has just 5 years of 20 hours per week training is impressive.  You almost never see anything comparable coming out of these martial arts after school programs.




Here getting to university ( college is something different here) means doing well academically, being good at sport doesn't get you a place as we don't have scholarships to uni.


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## lklawson (Apr 28, 2016)

Blindside said:


> In speaking with gymnastics coaches, the young women who aspire to get to college scholarship level in gymnastics are on the floor roughly 20 hours per week.  Olympics is something like 40.  So if you have a kid in a "martial arts" 15 hours per week, I would expect some pretty good things.  Watching even the average 15 year old do gymnastics at a local club who has just 5 years of 20 hours per week training is impressive.


And they're doing so in a class with 30 other kids and part of that 20 hours-a-week gymnastics practice is actually doing homework, not gymnastics?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2016)

This is why martial arts schools don't do childcare here. Information for out of school clubs covering Ofsted regulation and inspection | Out of School Alliance


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## oaktree (Apr 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Here getting to university ( college is something different here) means doing well academically, being good at sport doesn't get you a place as we don't have scholarships to uni.


Do university get most of their funds from government and or private donations?
In America sport endorsement deals and merchandise does give colleges a lot of money. Interesting to hear from the other side of the pond


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## WaterGal (Apr 28, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Replace martial arts with something else.  A foreign language, an instrument, or mathematics.  How good would you expect a child to be at piano?  I wouldn't expect concert capability.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



If a child spent 5-10 hours a week practicing the piano and getting decent instruction, I would actually expect them to know how to play the piano reasonably well after a few years.  I wouldn't expect them to be playing at Carnegie Hall, but they should be able to play more than basic primers.

But I guess "decent instruction" is part of the key, there.  If a place doesn't really care about that, then aftercare is just babysitting.  I feel like there has got to be some way to use the aftercare model to produce really top-notch athletes and martial artists - I just haven't seen anyone do that.  Maybe because really working the kids hard means some of them will quit and the school will lose that sweet sweet aftercare money.


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Do university get most of their funds from government and or private donations?
> In America sport endorsement deals and merchandise does give colleges a lot of money. Interesting to hear from the other side of the pond



They are state funded but students have to pay for tuition and accommodation which they can get loans for. There are scholarships/bursaries available from educational trusts, charities and some universities that have endowments from rich past students (think Oxford and Cambridge) but these are always for academic studies or for taking doctorates etc. never sports. Grants come from the EU and some times big companies but they are for research projects relevant to that business. Foreign students are a big source of revenue for many universities as well notably students from China at the moment. Money over and above the income from the state is needed as the present government thinks only the rich should be able to attend university.


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## mograph (Apr 28, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> If a child spent 5-10 hours a week practicing the piano and getting decent instruction, I would actually expect them to know how to play the piano reasonably well after a few years.


If we're talking about one-on-one instruction.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 28, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> If a child spent 5-10 hours a week practicing the piano and getting decent instruction, I would actually expect them to know how to play the piano reasonably well after a few years.  I wouldn't expect them to be playing at Carnegie Hall, but they should be able to play more than basic primers.



The first three results from a YouTube search for "middle school band concert" which would be kids with group instruction on their instruments for probably 5 hours a week, plus whatever practice they do at home, for at least a couple of years. Some individuals would be less, some more, I am sure.
















Not Carnegie Hall, but not much above "basic primers" either. I'd say, in terms of our school, these performances are at about an 8th or 7th geup level, and I'm sure that some individuals might be at the 6th geup level, with maybe a couple individuals out of those groups at the 5th geup level.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 28, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> Thank you and hello too you. I figured that I was being taken through a ringer. But, I didn't mind. It let me know that this forum is serious...people who love the arts tend to be protective of what they have done, do and believe. I rather enjoyed it.


Unfortunately, or fortunately, it happens here a lot. Within a week, maybe two, they'll have forgotten all about it.


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Unfortunately, or fortunately, it happens here a lot. Within a week, maybe two, they'll have forgotten all about it.



It depends on what is posted up though, if first posts are aggressive/insulting/style bashing etc etc then no, the reception probably won't be what an OP wishes for. If they introduce themselves on the 'new to here' thread, say hi and a little of what they do and why they are here then they _will_ get a warm welcome. First impressions matter despite what anyone may say.


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## lklawson (Apr 28, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> If a child spent 5-10 hours a week practicing the piano and getting decent instruction, I would actually expect them to know how to play the piano reasonably well after a few years.


The original time frame suggested was one year.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> It depends on what is posted up though, if first posts are aggressive/insulting/style bashing etc etc then no, the reception probably won't be what an OP wishes for. If they introduce themselves on the 'new to here' thread, say hi and a little of what they do and why they are here then they _will_ get a warm welcome. First impressions matter despite what anyone may say.


Ordinarily I agree with you when you choose to bash/interrogate something. However, while Michael was direct with his questioning, nothing that he has said outside of reacting to other people's attitudes were aggressive or insulting in and of itself. Now, some of the statements he reacted to weren't actually aggressive towards him, it's how he perceived it. 
I agree about the first impressions though, considering how some people who are friendly get welcomed with open arms, others are 'put through the ringer' and others are ignored or end up leaving because of the (normally deserved) reception.


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Ordinarily I agree with you when you choose to bash/interrogate something. However, while Michael was direct with his questioning, nothing that he has said outside of reacting to other people's attitudes were aggressive or insulting in and of itself. Now, some of the statements he reacted to weren't actually aggressive towards him, it's how he perceived it.
> I agree about the first impressions though, considering how some people who are friendly get welcomed with open arms, others are 'put through the ringer' and others are ignored or end up leaving because of the (normally deserved) reception.



Did you read his first thread about fights?
Actual Fight


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## oaktree (Apr 28, 2016)

In my opinion, if an instructor wants to truly teach the kids self defense then of course the results would be better.
One of the problems is comparing it to say music choirs is the teacher isn't operating it as a daycare, is doing either volunteer, or being paid salary as a teacher.
The common mcdojo is being paid primary as a daycare, or rank given kids self esteem builder hobby.
When I was 28? I visited a local tkd school that had hapkido I was interested in checking out well they said I had to try the tkd class first. So I had a 19-20 old guy show me some basic patterns then have me break a carpet wood board he really sold the a whole wow look at you, you did it shick. 
So I can imagine a little kid breaking said board and face lighting up and feel they accomplished something and the parents happy with the results for little Timmy self esteem and good grades.


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## Blindside (Apr 28, 2016)

lklawson said:


> And they're doing so in a class with 30 other kids and part of that 20 hours-a-week gymnastics practice is actually doing homework, not gymnastics?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I think the girls gymnastics classes run about 20 kids but I am not sure. Good point about the homework, no the girls aren't doing homework, they are in classes to be coached for gymnastics.  It isn't an "after school program" as most of these martial arts classes are taught as.


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 29, 2016)

It really was my mistake. I edited my post after the first response due to a misunderstanding concerning what I was attempting to ask. Nobody is really at fault other than me. Regardless, I did attempt to apologize for my mistake....but it was automatically assumed that I was here to cause trouble. As stated previously, I will word my questions in a more politically correct way.


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## Buka (Apr 29, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> It really was my mistake. I edited my post after the first response due to a misunderstanding concerning what I was attempting to ask. Nobody is really at fault other than me. Regardless, I did attempt to apologize for my mistake....but it was automatically assumed that I was here to cause trouble. As stated previously, I will word my questions in a more politically correct way.



Dude, you're good, no worries.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Did you read his first thread about fights?
> Actual Fight


I did. It was a bit rude at first, then he apologized, what he was saying was a lot more reasonable than what it sounded like he was saying, and when he stated his experience it sounded legitimate.

I also find it funny that we are talking about him on a forum where he is undoubtedly reading all of this


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## mograph (Apr 29, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> I also find it funny that we are talking about him on a forum where he is undoubtedly reading all of this


I imagine his saying, "I can hear you, you know."


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## Tez3 (Apr 29, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> I did. It was a bit rude at first, then he apologized, what he was saying was a lot more reasonable than what it sounded like he was saying, and when he stated his experience it sounded legitimate.
> 
> I also find it funny that we are talking about him on a forum where he is undoubtedly reading all of this



I don't care if he is reading it, did you read though the further comments he made to another poster which were more than a bit rude and for which he did not apologise?


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## Tames D (Apr 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I don't care if he is reading it, did you read though the further comments he made to another poster which were more than a bit rude and for which he did not apologise?


Let it go. He's trying to make amends. I think you just like stirring the pot.


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## Tez3 (Apr 29, 2016)

'dislike' and 'disagree' doesn't change the facts but you know that, which is why 'dislike' and 'disagree'


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I don't care if he is reading it, did you read though the further comments he made to another poster which were more than a bit rude and for which he did not apologise?


You might need to highlight the specific quote. I looked back through the thread and after I apologized for my error...the attack continued. The one thing you should know about me...I respond in kind. I do not see who else you think that I need to apologize to. Please enlighten me.


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## Tez3 (Apr 29, 2016)

This to Rich Parsons, a very well respected poster here and very knowledgeable martial artist, the last mocking sentences are also unnecessary. You are taking insult where none was offered nor was Rich insulted, you took what he said the wrong way then compounded it by telling him he had a lack of understanding and was 'sensitive'. The insinuation that he had no character nor a strong frame of mind was particularly petty after already commenting that you thought he was lacking in understanding. Only my opinion of course,  

_"By your response, after admitting my mistake, _*definitely shows that you have a lack of true* *understanding of the martial arts.*_ I am sure, as experienced martial artist, those who commented really did know what I was asking. I stated that in my personal opinion, contact is a hit, Its simply my opinion. I am not insulted in the least by your comment. Its your opinion...Not gospel truth._* It is clear that you are very insulted by my comment*_. I am not really into the mysticism associated with the martial arts. But that is probably due to my lack of religious belief. _*I believe the martial arts can build character and a strong frame of mind. As I stated previously, I will take your sensitivity into consideration with my future post."

*


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> This to Rich Parsons, a very well respected poster here and very knowledgeable martial artist, the last mocking sentences are also unnecessary. You are taking insult where none was offered nor was Rich insulted, you took what he said the wrong way then compounded it by telling him he had a lack of understanding and was 'sensitive'. The insinuation that he had no character nor a strong frame of mind was particularly petty after already commenting that you thought he was lacking in understanding. Only my opinion of course,
> 
> _"By your response, after admitting my mistake, _*definitely shows that you have a lack of true* *understanding of the martial arts.*_ I am sure, as experienced martial artist, those who commented really did know what I was asking. I stated that in my personal opinion, contact is a hit, Its simply my opinion. I am not insulted in the least by your comment. Its your opinion...Not gospel truth._* It is clear that you are very insulted by my comment*_. I am not really into the mysticism associated with the martial arts. But that is probably due to my lack of religious belief. _*I believe the martial arts can build character and a strong frame of mind. As I stated previously, I will take your sensitivity into consideration with my future post."
> *


Again in response to his statement after my apology.

definitely shows that you have a lack of true understanding of the martial arts. This one is in response to him concerning his like statement to me. I respond in kind.

I believe the martial arts can build character and a strong frame of mind. As I stated previously, I will take your sensitivity into consideration with my future post."

This one is in response to his statement about me not having a clue about what forms are for. I stated that I did not believe in the mysticism associated with The forms. It was simply letting him know what, I believed, concerning forms.

I practice karate...I read a lot about what the man who established forms in karate stated about karate.

I wasn't stating that his belief doesn't build a strong mind. I was agreeing with his perception that it does....But without the religious tone. He had stated that I did not know what forms are intended for.

But with all of that...he invited me to one of his seminars...I asked where he was located.

Which lead me to believe that we are ok. Apparently I misunderstood that as Well?

I got Nothing against Rich...I do not even know him.

But I do respond in kind...

If he feels insulted...tell him I am sorry...this whole thread is a cluster of misunderstanding


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## Tames D (Apr 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> This to Rich Parsons, a very well respected poster here and very knowledgeable martial artist, the last mocking sentences are also unnecessary. You are taking insult where none was offered nor was Rich insulted, you took what he said the wrong way then compounded it by telling him he had a lack of understanding and was 'sensitive'. The insinuation that he had no character nor a strong frame of mind was particularly petty after already commenting that you thought he was lacking in understanding. Only my opinion of course,


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## donald1 (Apr 30, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> 'dislike' and 'disagree' doesn't change the facts but you know that, which is why 'dislike' and 'disagree'


Apaligize?... apalagise?! Bah! Who needs that nonsense!  The goal is to state all ideas, opinions and everything else you believe to be true while standing firm to your beliefs... let nobody tell you your wrong(cause your not) and opoligize for nothing! Cause your right and they are clearly the blind ones


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## Tez3 (Apr 30, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> this whole thread is a cluster of misunderstanding



And that takes it back to my point about making first impressions and how you are thought of after a few bombastic first posts. Your very first one was a command, the second was dismissive because the answers you had been given didn't suit you. Yes you've apologised but my point, when you thought you'd been put through the wringer, was that you brought it on yourself. This isn't FB where short sharp answers are the norm, we have the luxury here of being able to take our time and write long posts without people saying they can't be bothered to read them because they are over ten words.


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## Tames D (Apr 30, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> And that takes it back to my point about making first impressions and how you are thought of after a few bombastic first posts. Your very first one was a command, the second was dismissive because the answers you had been given didn't suit you. Yes you've apologised but my point, when you thought you'd been put through the wringer, was that you brought it on yourself. This isn't FB where short sharp answers are the norm, we have the luxury here of being able to take our time and write long posts without people saying they can't be bothered to read them because they are over ten words.


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## Michael Shayne (Apr 30, 2016)

Thankfully...there us an ignore button.


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## WaterGal (May 2, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> The first three results from a YouTube search for "middle school band concert" which would be kids with group instruction on their instruments for probably 5 hours a week, plus whatever practice they do at home, for at least a couple of years. Some individuals would be less, some more, I am sure.



From personal experience, school band classes provide little-to-no instruction on how to actually play the instruments, just on how to play together in a band.  You're meant to get outside instruction from a tutor to learn how to play the instrument and your part of the songs, but a lot of kids don't, which is part of why school bands tend to be so bad.

But that aside.... my issue isn't that students aren't super-amazing after 1 year.  It's that, from everything I've seen, students that go to "martial arts aftercare" for 15 hours a week are _worse_ at martial arts than students at many other schools who only spend 3 hours a week in class, when they should be better.

I wonder where the problem is.  Is it that schools that aren't good at teaching martial arts turn to offering aftercare to pay the bills?  Or is it a _result _of offering aftercare and relying on that to pay your overhead?  You start making compromises in order to keep kids in the aftercare program, water down the classes, divert your energy towards that instead of teaching.... I don't know.


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## Dirty Dog (May 2, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> From personal experience, school band classes provide little-to-no instruction on how to actually play the instruments, just on how to play together in a band.  You're meant to get outside instruction from a tutor to learn how to play the instrument and your part of the songs, but a lot of kids don't, which is part of why school bands tend to be so bad.



I think the same could be said of after school kiddie MA-themed day care.



WaterGal said:


> But that aside.... my issue isn't that students aren't super-amazing after 1 year.  It's that, from everything I've seen, students that go to "martial arts aftercare" for 15 hours a week are _worse_ at martial arts than students at many other schools who only spend 3 hours a week in class, when they should be better.



Why should they? One person is actually training in MA. The other is in daycare with a ninja picture on the wall.


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## Pittsburgh Arnis (May 2, 2016)

Azulx said:


> I was thinking about this earlier: McDojos seem to be common in the west, but how common are Mcdojos in the eastern countries?



You may find this video interesting


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## Rich Parsons (May 2, 2016)

Michael Shayne said:


> Again in response to his statement after my apology.
> 
> definitely shows that you have a lack of true understanding of the martial arts. This one is in response to him concerning his like statement to me. I respond in kind.
> 
> ...




DUDE!

You posted, I was typing and your post was not there when I started, and then I posted and it showed up after yours. 
Like I stated it was a cross post. 
This shows your total lack of understanding or the internet and forums. 

And guess what I respond in kind, and you posted poorly, as you admitted later. You edited it later, but not before I read it. You apologized as I was responding your follow up snarkiness.  

So , I went away and taught martial arts for a while and got paid for it.  

So , take some advice you are trying to give me, and go back and look at my posts, and your posts as originally written and time frame, and see that one crossed the other. 

To be honest, my opinion of you is not good. I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop. Maybe over time, it might change. Just my opinion. You come out shooting and calling people out and say hey no mental just physical and martial arts is fantasy. Maybe yours is, so ask your questions better such as in my limited experience I have seen this and this. Is this common? 
 The tone and content gives different responses, while the former might look like a troll and the later like a concerned person looking to grow and learn. 

Was I insulted and or hurt by  your comments? No. 
Do I remember them  and how you tried to insult me? Yes. 
Do I think you either knee jerked and did not read, or was truly looking to troll? Yes and Yes. 

This is my perception of you. And yes my first response was as you put it in kind to your posts.  Mirroring is the term I use. 

So enjoy your stay here. I truly hope it is productive. I truly hope you can bring something here and contribute, even if no more than asking questions. for that is good in itself. 

Good Luck


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## Michael Shayne (May 3, 2016)

Rich Parsons said:


> DUDE!
> 
> You posted, I was typing and your post was not there when I started, and then I posted and it showed up after yours.
> Like I stated it was a cross post.
> ...


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## Michael Shayne (May 3, 2016)

Rich Parsons said:


> DUDE!
> 
> You posted, I was typing and your post was not there when I started, and then I posted and it showed up after yours.
> Like I stated it was a cross post.
> ...


That's excellent....have a great workout.


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## WaterGal (May 3, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Why should they? One person is actually training in MA. The other is in daycare with a ninja picture on the wall.



Well, yes.... but what I'm wondering is why does the aftercare model seem to _always _be that?  You can teach something worthwhile and also make money.  There's got to be a way to create a program that picks kids up after school and turns them into quality taekwondoin or karateka for their age.  I guess it's just easier and cheaper not to bother and just run it as a daycare center, since it's not like most parents know any better.


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## mograph (May 3, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> I guess it's just easier and cheaper not to bother and just run it as a daycare center, since it's not like most parents know any better.


There's a sweet spot, where you give the kids good education without challenging them too much, right? If the studio really went into the discipline, focus and drilling to be good at martial arts, the studio would lose customers, possibly to the point where the business wouldn't be viable. Remember, we're talking about kids here: kids who want to have fun and be stimulated, while the kind of stimulation and fun offered by martial arts isn't, we have to admit, for everyone.


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## JR 137 (May 4, 2016)

What I'm about to say may sound like I'm supporting McDojos, but I'm not.  I have my daughter come with my where I train, and my other one will too when she's old enough...

Kids need to have fun.  They learn best when things are fun and aren't overly serious and rigid.  No matter how hard you train a kid, 99% of them aren't going to be MA machines.  Many of them are going to be kids who are there because they'd probably sit the bench in team sports.

The younger they are, the most important thing is that you teach them to love the MA.  This will more easily keep them interested in it when they're older and it becomes harder and more serious.  The harder you push them, the harder they'll push back.  Push too hard, and they'll be done with the MA.

I'm not saying get them to love the MA and have fun for the purpose of retaining students to keep collecting tuition.  I'm not an MA teacher.  But if they're pushed too hard too early and end up hating it, you'll lose some kids who could've grown to become great martial artists.

IMO the younger they are, the more emphasis should be on having fun with the MA and teaching a foundation of basics.  Let them wear gis with patches of their achievements in and out of the dojo.  Let them do kata to music with smoke machines and glowing weapons.  Let them have fun.  But IMO that stuff should gradually end, and be completely over by the time they're in high school.  

I'm a strict TMA guy.  Those things have no place FOR ME as an adult in karate.  But I'm not 5-10 years old anymore either.  I've never done that stuff, but if my daughters wanted to, and that's what'll keep them interested in the MA so that they'll be serious students when they're older, then I'd be more than fine with it.

Live and let live.  The McDojos aren't for me, but who am I to say because they're not for me then no one else is allowed to enjoy them?  I'm don't get the allure to guns (among other things, but that doesn't mean I think Uncle Sam should take yours away because I don't relate.


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## WaterGal (May 4, 2016)

mograph said:


> There's a sweet spot, where you give the kids good education without challenging them too much, right? If the studio really went into the discipline, focus and drilling to be good at martial arts, the studio would lose customers, possibly to the point where the business wouldn't be viable. Remember, we're talking about kids here: kids who want to have fun and be stimulated, while the kind of stimulation and fun offered by martial arts isn't, we have to admit, for everyone.



There is a balance to be found, but... I think you _need _to challenge the students, and a lot of kids enjoy being challenged, it keep them interested.  It just _also _has to be fun and stimulating, and the kids have to have a good rapport with the instructor.  You need to make them work hard without being a hard***, you know?

And I think you need to consider the age of the kids when it comes to developing lesson plans and standards - what activities, expectations, forms of discipline, ways of explaining things, etc are developmentally appropriate at that age?  That doesn't mean don't bother to expect younger kids to be any good, though, it just means taking a different approach.


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## mograph (May 4, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> And I think you need to consider the age of the kids when it comes to developing lesson plans and standards - what activities, expectations, forms of discipline, ways of explaining things, etc are developmentally appropriate at that age?


Yes, this is key.
Teaching Children Martial Arts: A Winning Approach


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## PhotonGuy (May 5, 2016)

So people here are talking about having the right balance between being fun and being challenging when it comes to martial arts training. Also, lots of the talk here has been about children who take martial arts classes but adults take classes too and I would say the same principles apply. With both children and adults there are some who want to really push themselves and get the most out of it and then there are those who want to just do it for fun and aside from that they don't care to get much more out of it and then there are lots of people who fall somewhere in between. For children, if the classes are little more than babysitting services where the children are hardly challenged at all than that is what I consider a McDojo. I think its important for children to have some challenges, but by the same token you don't want martial arts classes to be like the military, do you?


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## Balrog (May 13, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Where I live, after school daycare (2-6ish, including pick-up) is about $400 a month.  I teach at my kids' school, so I don't have that bill.  A lot of people I know do.  Charging people $200 a month for after school MA is a good deal compared to the alternative.





lklawson said:


> They're really sticking it to you.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I dunno.  4 hours a day, 5 days a week, 4 weeks a month....that's 80 hours.  Works out to 5 clams an hour.

I charge a minimum of $150 a month.  3 classes a week, 4 weeks a month....that's 12 hours.  Works out to $12.50 an hour or more.

But I'm worth it!


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## RTKDCMB (May 13, 2016)

Balrog said:


> Works out to $12.50 an hour or more.
> 
> But I'm worth it!


Try getting a professional anything for $12.50 an hour. Martial arts instruction is a bargain.


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## mograph (May 13, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Try getting a professional anything for $12.50 an hour. Martial arts instruction is a bargain.


At one point, I saw a pattern where one-on-one personal coaching (music lessons or personal training) went for about $60 per hour. IMO, for a group class, the teacher should be earning more for the class (it's more work), but charging less per student (less individual attention per student).


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## Balrog (May 13, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Try getting a professional anything for $12.50 an hour. Martial arts instruction is a bargain.


Yes.  I should have said in relation to child care.


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