# Grappling with PTSD



## Flea (Feb 21, 2009)

... and introducing myself while I'm at it. :uhyeah:  I guess it's a little weird to start on such a down note, but I feel some urgency with my question.

I'm a total MA novice; I just started a Systema class a few months ago in response to a nasty crime spree in my neighborhood.  The crime situation has mostly resolved itself, but I really enjoy the class.  Everyone's been great.  I'm the only gyno-American, and the guys are all very respectful and encouraging.

My only big complaint has very little to do with the class itself.  It's brought up flashbacks and other issues from something I thought I had laid to rest several years ago.  I consulted with a therapist and decided to continue with the class.  I get a lot out of it, and quitting wouldn't change the past anyway.  I also took the teacher aside quietly and told him the situation.  He was kind of cute -

"I don't understand.  What's a flashback?"

"It's like PTSD."

"Oh."

He's been great about quietly encouraging me, and reassuring me as he sees the need.  Sometimes he goes slightly overboard, but I think that's a fine problem to have.

The flashbacks are pretty much gone now after a few months ... until they introduced me to grappling.  A couple weeks ago the teacher did a segment for everyone and offered very gently to show me some moves.  I thought it over - it looks like fun, and I know it's very important to self defense.  But there's just no way.  There was absolutely no peer pressure from anyone, and some of my classmates even narrated their proceedings so I could learn passively.  I got triggered and upset, but kept a tight lid on it.  Even so I think it was pretty visible that something was going on.  At the time I asked if the teacher knew of any women I could practice with, and he drew a blank.

The other night, the entire class was grappling for 2 hours straight.  From warm-ups, the teacher segued into grappling in a very natural way that made me willing to consider it.  I told my first partner - "microscopic baby steps" - and he was great.  After 10 minutes or so we switched partners and I said the same thing to the next guy.  My brain suddenly gave me that danger signal that I'm _done for now!!!!_  I tapped out affectionately and left my partner confused on the floor.  As I stood up and headed for the sidelines the teacher was right on task, asking me urgently "Are you okay?  Are you okay?  Flea? Are you okay Flea?"  Not really, no, but I can't imagine what he could have done about it if I'd answered honestly.  That, and I was already embarrassed over the whole thing and didn't want to attract any more attention.

I probably should have gone home at that point, but I wanted to be a trooper and so I stayed and watched.  Every so often the teacher would interrupt to show some cool new thang one to do to wreak havoc and destruction.  :whip1:  But it got to the point that I realized I was unconsciously holding my head in my hands and catching a few sidelong glances.  Once I got out to the car I realized how Not Okay I was, and had to collect myself for nearly an hour before I felt I could drive safely. 

I have mixed feelings about the whole misadventure.  Obviously I pushed myself _way_ too hard, but I feel really badass for having done something I thought would be impossible.  I grappled for ten whole minutes!!  That's a heroic accomplishment.  And now that I've proven that point to myself, I can peacefully let it go.  It's a liability for me as a fighter, but that's the way it's going to have to be.  The aftermath over the last 48 hours has been very mixed.  High anxiety, righteous rage, nightmares, the whole grab bag (I know this is very textbook.) All tempered with pride over the fact that I had the brass balls to give it a try.  I'm not really sure when I'll be able to make it back; the next class is on Thursday.  I'm afraid that if I skip too long it'll be too easy to chicken out and not go back at all.  I also worry about going back since my condition is probably pretty obvious by now - I don't want any of them to see me as "the crime victim."  This sucks!

So ... I have questions:

Assuming there are other MA'ists with ptsd, how to you deal with the triggers on a routine basis?  Overall I've found it to be very health because it desensitizes me to the triggers.  I didn't expect such a strong reaction to the grappling though, and I'm not sure how to get past that.  I even need to leave the room when they get started.  

As for any instructors reading this ... how do you deal with students with ptsd? Is there some kind of protocol?  Is there something you can suggest that I do to improve communication with my teacher?  Or does everything sound okay on that front?  I'm so new to MA that I wouldn't even know what to look for.

Thanks in advance ...


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## mozzandherb (Feb 21, 2009)

You are an inspiration for a lot of people, not too many people could do what you do and even more courageous to talk about your mental state.  I would agree that continuing to train would be beneficial, but I am no expert (however I do hold a Minor degree in Psychology), but by no means an expert.  My advice however would be to still consult a therapist while you are training and let him/her know what you are doing and how you are feeling.
Desensitizing yourself is great, but I think it could and should be monitored   by a professional.  A person's mental health is incredibly important and if you do have some mental health problems, please take the right precautions.  If you are fragile and training is triggering some thoughts, this might or might not be good, either way, it would be good to hear what a professional says and try to find a therapist that you are comfortable with.  Good luck, and good training


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## Flea (Feb 21, 2009)

Thank you.

As far as the therapy goes, The woman I consulted with initially was through my city's domestic violence shelter.  I really liked her, but I found that talking about it for a full hour dredged up way more than I was willing to deal with.  I couldn't imagine subjecting myself to that for a an hour a week.  (How ironic is that?  :lol2

She said that I made her day because I'm so literate about mental health and so proactive in taking care of myself; in other words, I'm already doing everything "right."  She didn't have anything new to offer me other than a support group meeting.  

As far as being outspoken about my condition, I'm an activist on mental health issues in my local community.  I chair the Board of Directors of a very large mood-disorder support group.  We're working very hard these days to connect with the city's larger disability community, and civil rights communities.  We also did a lot toward getting the Mental Health Parity Act passed last year.  Exciting times!  My Systema class is about the only place I'm still in that closet, but usually it's not an issue for me at all.  Thanks for the compliment though.


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## shesulsa (Feb 21, 2009)

*PTSD person here*

My suggestions in a nutshell:



Discuss goals for this with your therapist ... AND with your instructor.
Be honest with your training partners ... or have your teacher tell them when you're not around - but make sure he knows exactly what he's dealing with first.
You are your boss in this; you'll have to face this moment by moment in your recovery.
Expect this to take years ... at least.
Keep a training journal and include your PTSD experiences in it.
You need to be able to trust the instructor and any partner you work with implicitly for you to get what you need out of the lesson ... for starters.  Remember ... "starters" might be a while.

Keep us up-to-date on your progress, please. This is a big issue for many who come to martial arts. 

:asian:


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## StrongFighter (Feb 21, 2009)

The first thing you need to realize is that PTSD will almost never go away, it just gets less with time.

I know exactly what you are talking about. The freezing up, the fear, everything else going on. 

The only way you can work through this is to attack right back. Build yourself physically stronger.

The bad guys are not going to stop you even if you are having a flashback, panic, fear seizing you.

Think about it for a minute and this will make perfect sense. 

Police officers have fought with some seriously bad dudes and the officers had flashbacks right in the middle of the street fight. 

The cops aren't about to let that stop them. You shouldn't either.

Being thrown into the violent world of prisons, the rec yard, on the tier etc. Fights are always breaking out all the time. 

There are guys that are bigger, stronger and faster. Some of them are way too violent and muscular even for the prison guards who are muscular powerhouses.

Fighting these bad guys are just real life nightmares that move with frightening speed because they are so physically fit. You have to fight them. You got no choice.

The lone bad guy who has not proven himself has targeted you and he is on a gang mission in the prison yard to prove his loyalty to his gang. 

You are not a gang member and he will violently assault you anyways stopping at nothing to destroy you even if you did nothing wrong to him. 

They simply don't care and they are way too angry to hold a logical and reasonable conversation even though you fear for your life. You can't reason with them. 

They only thing you can do is fight or die. That is the reality both on the inside and the outside on the streets, especially when they get out of prison. 

They are angry as hell and don't care. They think society owes them something, when society owes them absolutely nothing at all.

They ain't gonna stop for you. Hell, they could be having flashbacks as they are fighting you and you wouldn't even know it. They are gonna fight period because that is survival.

Street fights, you should avoid them but if you can't then you gotta defend yourself no matter what because at the end of the day. 

Who gets to go home and who takes a trip to the hospital or the coffin ? 

You want to be the one that goes home and the first time you ever been in the hospital. You will vow that it will be your last time you are ever in the hospital recovering from injuries.

Part of the healing process is getting physically stronger, doing all the things you need to do. Not just for your instructor but for yourself too.

If I were you, I would get into Japanese jiu jitsu ( not brazilian jiu jitsu ) and kick boxing, some judo. Those are far more realistic for the street.

The criminal has most likely has learned to out box, outclass and destroy you in the shortest time possible. 

He does not care about your martial art or that you are a golden glove boxer, hell he doesn't care if your in the military or a police officer. 

He just wants you dead because he wants your money for drugs, maybe some beer and food.

That is precisely the kind of scum you are training and fighting to stop. 

PTSD can freeze you or bring the animal out of you. The choice is yours.


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## StrongFighter (Feb 21, 2009)

Flea said:


> Thank you.
> 
> As far as the therapy goes, The woman I consulted with initially was through my city's domestic violence shelter. I really liked her, but I found that talking about it for a full hour dredged up way more than I was willing to deal with. I couldn't imagine subjecting myself to that for a an hour a week. (How ironic is that? :lol2
> 
> ...


 
That is good you decided to be a survivor and not a victim keeping on getting victimized. I would want my daughter to have the survivor's mentality like you do.

I was busy responding to you and I thought you were a man. I am sure some of what I said can give you some good ideas for your training.


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## Brian King (Feb 22, 2009)

Hello Flea
First off welcome to Martial Talk. You honesty in your first and second post and willingness to ask questions and be honest in the detailing of feelings and experiences speak well for you and foretells your success in eventually dealing with the issues that you outline in your posts. 


Systema will help you on the difficult journey that you face. You are not alone in your journey although the journey is yours alone. Please realize we all have our battles to face: every single guy in your Systema class including the instructor is training for a reason and is facing personal battles. Think of the push-ups and how at first you might think that everyone is watching you and seeing the pain, frustration and the battle not to feel sorry for yourself that you are waging but if you take a second to observe you will see that all are dealing with their own issues and not paying attention to yours. The issues might be seen but it is no big deal to the others is what I am trying to say no matter that it IS a big deal to you. Learn to deal with your embarrassment (pride) and do the work regardless. If you stick with Systema you will see people facing and overcoming many different fears and issues, you will see emotions exposed and dealt with many for the first times in years or decades. Remember that denial of these issues injures you twice- physically and mentally. Facing and over coming these issues will have positive outcomes physically and mentally that you cannot presently imagine. 


You are new to Systema Flea and I may be making perhaps a unwise assumption that the Systema you are training is the same as my own I wonder if you know the other name of our system? *From Vladimir Vasilievs web site*


> Systema has another name poznai sebia or Know Yourself. What does it really mean to Understand Yourself? It is not just to know what your strengths and weaknesses are, that is good but fairly superficial. Training in Russian Martial Art is one of the sure ways to see the full extent of our limitations  to see how proud and weak we really are. Systema allows us to gain the true strength of spirit that comes from humility and clarity in seeing the purpose of our life.


Flea Systema can be a system to cleanse and strengthen if trained correctly as well as an efficient method of dealing with violence on any level. 





> Assuming there are other MA'ists with ptsd, how to you deal with the triggers on a routine basis? Overall I've found it to be very health because it desensitizes me to the triggers. I didn't expect such a strong reaction to the grappling though, and I'm not sure how to get past that. I even need to leave the room when they get started. 


 

One of the goals of your training should be in my opinion is to learn to de-link the memory from the arousal. Remember that fear, helplessness, horror, interpersonal aggression re-experienced is NOT PTSD. Take your training slowly Flea and be satisfied with victories of inches. It is interesting to note that many in the therapy field consider it a good session when the client has a break thru and leaves the session in tears. Systema can and will also produce break thru but as instructors after cracking the shell and achieving the break thru we try to take the time to rebuild and strengthen before the student leaves allowing them to leave stronger than they arrived. PTSD is not like pregnancy (you either are or you are not) but more like being over weight (you might be a little over weight or you might be obese) PTSD is not like frostbite (permanent damage to the body) but more like the flu (it can last awhile and can be dangerous but it can be overcame and survived).


There is a drill in Systema where we stack bodies onto the students. First one student lays down on the floor (either on stomach or on their back) then one at a time other students lay across the first students body and then on the other students stacking like firewood. One at a time with both the instructor carefully observing and which ever student went second observing the first student (and all the other students) After the student reaches their maximum comfort depending on the drill they either escape or the stay and practice breathing methods as the students on top of them are pulled off one at a time. We have had students have a difficult time with this drill as you can perhaps imagine. One in particular comes to my mind. A large in shape experienced martial artist and tough construction worker. He had a very hard time with this drill (suffers from claustrophobia) and had to work very slowly thru this drill and at first could only take one body on top as the second would throw him into panic. So we worked with one body and had him breathing while the body was on top of him. Breathing helps combat fear and anxiety. We had him empty his lungs completely and then fill them several times before allowing him to escape. After awhile he could take a second bodythen a third. I think that he is now up to seven or eight bodies with little reaction although now and then if he does not breathe correctly and the panic gets too much to handle he can then only do a few bodies. I tell this so that you can see that others even large macho guys have issues, to show how by taking time (in the above case we have been working for nearly a year) issues can be resolved and to demonstrate how breathing can give you strength. 


In Systema breath almost always leads. Flea when next you feel that arousal try if you would like to, a method of breathing called square breathing one of the many different methods you will explore while training in SYstema. Practice this method of breathing before it is needed so you get good at it, so practice while doing push-ups, while walking/running or doing any physical task, practice it while reading. The basic is to inhale for a count of three-five then suspend the breathing (basically holding the inhale) again for a count of three-five then after holding for the count slowly exhale for the same count then again suspend the exhale (hold you breath) for the same count before again inhaling and repeating. Thru experimentation (increasing the count and changing the count during the different legs of the breathing pattern) you will learn what count works for you. The memory will return and you will have to work your way thru it but the breathing will help and as you practice you will get better at it (both the breathing and recognizing the when the trigger is causing arousal sooner so that you can cleanse easier) You may not be able to stay in the class while they grapple at first but again win by inches and be proud of your victories and you will notice staying longer and longer and again participating in the drills eventually. 

Systema is a honest art so the students and the instructors have to be willing to take a step backwards in their training when they find themselves getting lost, sloppy, or confused. It is a strength to be able to recognize when something is not working and to be able to go back and further break down the training to smaller pieces and build back up the understanding. You will have to be able to do this on your own as well Flea as your training progresses. DO NOT worry about slowing your partners training, trust me Flea they are working on their own issues and slowing down helps all. The more advanced will find ways of getting training needed no matter who is working with them. Two can be working on the same drill and can be working on completely different aspects of the drill depending on their experiences and understandings. Be honest in your training.





> Is there something you can suggest that I do to improve communication with my teacher? 


 

It sounds like you already have decent communication. Be honest (with yourself and with the instructor and with your training partners) If something feels uncomfortable to you let the instructor know hopefully he can further break down the drill/exercise so that you can get more comfortable. He may have you tough it out as a means of tempering and stress inoculation and be willing to give it a try. Remember your breathing and if it gets to be too much step back and take a break (or do a very slow push-up)





> I also worry about going back since my condition is probably pretty obvious by now - I don't want any of them to see me as "the crime victim." This sucks!


 


Yup your condition may have been noticed and if the school is any good it was likely noticed the minute you walked into the door. It happens. Yes they may see you as the crime victim but it more likely that they will see you as the never again crime victim that is fighting back and will no longer be the victim. 

Another consideration Flea is the help and dynamic that you can bring to the training. You can offer a unique perspective to your and as important your partners training. Your views and experiences will and do have a value to the guys that you are training with. They all have females in their families and may also have crime victims in their families or may have in the future. Your working thru these issues will ripple helpfully across many families that you may never even meet. 


Flea, there are millions of people in America who have thought to themselves that they would like to learn a martial art. Most will never go beyond that point. Never get off the couch, get in their car and drive to the school and after sitting out in the parking lot for a few minutes gather their strength and walk thru the door and onto the floor. If you never take another lesson Flea you are already a hero that has done something that millions have wanted to do but never have and never will. 

Do not beat yourself up Flea over the bad days and take pride in the good days! Condition yourself train yourself to keep going. Dust off and continue the journey. 





> At the time I asked if the teacher knew of any women I could practice with


 

I do not know where you are located Flea but I do know of a female Systema instructor and author that is very capable and knowledgeable. Janice Bishop is her name and every time I get to Toronto I look forward to working with her. Her info is here http://www.fight-club.ca/fight_club_instructor.php She maybe too far away for you to work with in person but I encourage you to write her a note with your concerns and questions. Please also feel free contacting me thru PM or email if you wish to continue this conversation privately. 

Good luck to you and with your training
Warmest wishes
Brian King


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## Flea (Feb 22, 2009)

Wow, you guys have given me a lot to work with.  I'm not sure where to start.

First, someone sent me a PM.  The text of the message didn't come through, so you may want to send it again.  Either that, or it went straight to the thread.  Or maybe I just couldn't figure out how to open it. 



> Facing and over coming these issues will have positive outcomes physically and mentally that you cannot presently imagine.


I'm getting a glimpse of that.  I mentioned that I'm a mental health advocate; I come by that honestly.  Since starting the Systema I've found myself more functional than I've been in _years._  For several reasons I've chosen not to share that part of my life with teacher or class, but maybe I'm not subtle about it as I think.  That's neither here nor there.



> Remember that fear, helplessness, horror, interpersonal aggression re-experienced is NOT PTSD.


How do you reckon?  My understanding of ptsd is pretty close to what you describe above.  http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/ncmain/ncdocs/fact_shts/fs_dsm_iv_tr.html  I post the link not to argue, I'm just curious to know how you define it.    Yes, we've had classes where someone was given the opportunity to talk and hash things out for several minutes.  I probably would have had the opportunity to do the same the other night if I'd stayed, but I wouldn't have taken it.  I've been tempted to call the teacher since, but I'm not sure that's appropriate.  I'm really curious to know how he would have responded if I'd told him I wasn't okay.  That's a conversation I'd insist on having privately, and of course I can't do that immediately before or after class.

We've done the "piling on" exercise.  I understand the rationale behind it, but it seems pretty surreal.  I don't think the teacher will ever invite me to try it, especially not after the other day.  It's nice to hear that even tough guys would be stopped cold by some of the psychological stuff (not that I'm not tough - I think I demonstrated that pretty well the other night.)  The time I did it, the guy next to me smiled "this is how we do it in mental hospitals."  I was so angry I almost threw up; he makes "crazy" jokes all the time.  The teacher doesn't intervene, and I haven't said anything since it seems to be a hostile climate for mental illness (I feel like Richard Simmons at a 700 Club fundraiser.)  Another major reason I didn't own up to being Not Okay the other night.  Ironically, he's an excellent partner in most other ways.  He's very patient and helpful, and about twice my size.  But it's hard for me to work with him - for me, crazy jokes are equivalent to the N-bomb.  I can't seem to get past that, certainly not without coming out of that particular closet.  Yes, acknowledge that I _choose_ to closet myself, but that doesn't lessen the impact.

Thank you for the breathing exercise.  I get the concept of the inhale-hold and exhale-hold, but what is three-five?  The other day I experimented with breathing my way through an anxiety attack with moderate success.  That was a good feeling.

I used to worry about slowing everyone down until I hurt my back and had to watch from the sidelines for a couple weeks.  Wow!  Everyone sucks!  :lol:  How very liberating.  So now I just keep working at it.  Since I started we've had another newbie come in after me, so that's a confidence builder too.  



> They all have females in their families and may also have crime victims in their families or may have in the future. Your working thru these issues will ripple helpfully across many families that you may never even meet.


Wow, that's profound.  I honestly hadn't thought of that.  Thank you.  

I will most certainly continue with my training, but I need a few days to calm down.  I actually got up Saturday morning intending to go, but got all weepy again before I was even done with walking the dog.  There's a big difference between being "tough" and torturing or injuring oneself, and I consider my depression of the last couple days to be an injury.  I'll slide through it; 30+ years of managing that qualifies me as an expert.  I'll be okay.  I've seen Janice's name as I've lurked on the Systema forum.  Maybe I will drop her a line.

Shesulsa, I agree with you completely about the ptsd process taking years.  That's one thing the therapist told me; it resurfaces with a will of its own with no apparent logic.  No kidding!  The benefit of the MA is that while the flashbacks are still there, it's put violence into a totally different context.  Now, a bruise is a badge of honor after a fun evening.  I never dreamed I'd see that day.  As for the journal, I've thought about that but haven't done it.  I guess it's important, eh?  I'll hit the store for a notebook today.



> I would want my daughter to have the survivor's mentality like you do.


Strongfighter, I have never seen myself in this light.  Even since starting the Systema I still feel like I have VICTIM tattooed on my forehead simply _because_ something negative happened.  But you're right.  The night I made the call about the class was the night that a guy who harasses women on the street corner called out to me as I walked my dog ... "I'll take the dog _and_ the *****!!"  Something snapped in me; that _does_ it!  No more!! I didn't reward his behavior by acknowledging him, but I called that number after midnight hoping it was an office line. (It was.)  The rest, of course, is history.

This conversation has been a wonderful thing for me, and I'd like to continue it for as long as anyone else here is willing.  Thanks again.


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## shesulsa (Feb 22, 2009)

Flea, I did my blackbelt paper on teaching the student with PTSD.

PTSD is the halted ability for the mind to complete the healing cycle from some kind of trauma - that could be an extreme emotional trauma, secondary trauma (witnessing a traumatic event happening upon another person or people) psychological trauma, physical trauma or any combination thereof.

The fear, horror, flashbacks, anger, aggression ... are *symptoms* of PTSD - the experiencing of those feelings as though they are happening right at that moment with the same intensity as the very first time it happened, same as the moment of trauma.

It is imperative for you to know these:  

YOU ARE NOT ALONE

YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM ANY LONGER

YOU CAN REGAIN YOUR POWER

I want to commend you also for taking this step to taking your life back. I have taught self-defense to many girls and my share of women and I can tell you that I can read the fear in their eyes.  Some can't bring themselves to touch another person.  Some clench their teeth and make themselves do it, quaking with fear.  Most are somewhere in between.

It takes ... GUTS ... SERIOUS COURAGE to face this and work through this.  It's amazing to me (us, I'm sure) as it clearly is to you that you are here, you're talking about it, you're in the fight to get dirty and do what you have to do.  The most amazing place you have come to is an appreciation for a positive purpose for violence.  You are transforming its meaning for you and you are on a good, difficult, long path.

There is a thread here on MT called "Through the eyes of a rapist" - it's old, so you'll have to do some searching.  I'm leaving that up to you to do do when you're ready to read; there are some stories there that might inspire you or at least lend you the opportunity to identify with other people - externalizing your experience may help. 

If you ever want to chat privately, feel free to PM me.

-Georgia


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## StrongFighter (Feb 22, 2009)

Shesulsa, I think it would be a great idea if there was some sort of sub-forum that is reserved for ladies only discussion that is set to private.

Verification can be done by talking via the web cam for both visual and verbal confirmation that she is indeed a lady then she will be welcomed to the private forum discussion on MT where the ladies would feel more comfortable discussing these things between themselves.


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## shesulsa (Feb 22, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> Shesulsa, I think it would be a great idea if there was some sort of sub-forum that is reserved for ladies only discussion that is set to private.
> 
> Verification can be done by talking via the web cam for both visual and verbal confirmation that she is indeed a lady then she will be welcomed to the private forum discussion on MT where the ladies would feel more comfortable discussing these things between themselves.



There already is. It's called The Ladies Locker Room and the info regarding how to get in can be found in a sticky at the top of the Women in the Martial Arts forum.


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## Brian King (Feb 23, 2009)

*Flea wrote:*


> This conversation has been a wonderful thing for me, and I'd like to continue it for as long as anyone else here is willing.


 
I am willing and glad to carry on the conversation Flea. With the hope that when you read my posts that you understand these three things. I am writing with you in mind (even if I have not meet you or know you) but I am also trying to write for others that may read this thread so some of what I write may not pertain to you or your current issues. With that in mind not every you written will correspond to you/Flea but may be a generic you. I will try to keep it separated and precise but I hope that if you read and are offended or confused you will grant me the benefit of doubt and maybe first assume that it was the generic you I was addressing and not you personally. Third I write because I believe our knowledge grows when we share it and I want to improve. I am glad for yourself Flea and for others reading this thread in the future that you are choosing to keep it going for a bit longer. We (mankind) can often be healed through telling our stories in community and Martial Talk is a good community for doing so (and Flea your Systema class maybe as well). Pain shared is pain divided and Joy shared is joy multiplied (E.E. Smith)





> I've been tempted to call the teacher since, but I'm not sure that's appropriate.


 

As an instructor I believe that you cannot have too much communication and do not mind at all calls or emails or even visits from my students. 




> I'm really curious to know how he would have responded if I'd told him I wasn't okay


 

Me too but we will never know. It is a fine line sometimes helping people and often they have to do the majority of the work for the help to be effective. I am pretty sure that he knew something was wrong but also knew that at that moment you did not want his help and his offering would have perhaps been counter productive. As Systema instructors we do not spoon feed our students and often have to hold back instruction/advice until the student wants it.


*Flea also wrote:*



> Quote:
> Remember that fear, helplessness, horror, interpersonal aggression re-experienced is NOT PTSD.
> 
> 
> How do you reckon? My understanding of ptsd is pretty close to what you describe above. http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/ncmain/ncdo...dsm_iv_tr.html I post the link not to argue, I'm just curious to know how you define it.


 
Please do not worry about raising an issue or offending by arguing (not that you are). We have our truths and understandings and the discussion of them and the testing of them should not be feared but valued and cherished. To honestly discuss means willingness to be offended and to offend but the trick is to not take it personally. 

I am glad that you linked to the DSM-IV it makes this part of the discussion easier. I ask for your understanding and the understanding of anyone else reading these posts to understand I will usually be coming from the idea that I am addressing warriors, professional and civilian and Flea I see you in that light even if you do not see yourself so.

From my notes taken during a lecture giving by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman on Fort Lewis last year or maybe two years ago and from my reading of the DSM-IV PTSD is happening when;
1.) You feel fear, helplessness, or horror (I.E. have powerful SNS response in a life and death situation ) *AND*
2.)You persistently re-experience the event. *AND*
3.) You persistently avoid stimuli associated with the trauma  including Efforts to avoid activities, places, or people that arouse recollections of the trauma. *AND*
4.) The disturbance lasts for at least one month, *and it* causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

Re-Experiencing the event can be a normal reaction to an abnormal event. It by itself does not necessarily mean that someone has PTSD just that they have to make peace/forgiveness with the memory and move on.

_http://www.veroniquemead.com/sns.php__ for a better understanding of the sympathetic nervous system (SNS)_




> We've done the "piling on" exercise. I understand the rationale behind it, but it seems pretty surreal




A little off topic for this thread but understand Flea that the way we design the drills and train in Systema that every single person in the pile on exercise might be working on something completely different than every other person in the drill.




> I don't think the teacher will ever invite me to try it, especially not after the other day. It's nice to hear that even tough guys would be stopped cold by some of the psychological stuff (not that I'm not tough - I think I demonstrated that pretty well the other night.) 


 
I think they will and you should try it again and again and again. Regarding toughness I think you are perhaps selling yourself short. Continue your training and you will see every student and even the instructor 'fail'. It is not how often or even how badly you 'fail' it is whether you stop and give up or not or refuse to learn the lessons that the failure can teach.




> The time I did it, the guy next to me smiled "this is how we do it in mental hospitals." I was so angry I almost threw up; he makes "crazy" jokes all the time.


 
Have you inquired what he does for a living? Perhaps he works in a mental institution of some sort and his humor is one of his ways of dealing with the stress of the job and used as a survival mechanism? Or perhaps his use of his humor is his way to deal with embarrassing and uncomfortable situations? Regardless his humor effecting you is giving you a great opportunity to work on why it angers you as well as perhaps an opportunity to gently help expand someones understanding of the issues that some face.





> Thank you for the breathing exercise. I get the concept of the inhale-hold and exhale-hold, but what is three-five? The other day I experimented with breathing my way through an anxiety attack with moderate success. That was a good feeling.


 
That is GREAT that you are experimenting with the breathing. You will find it very helpful. The three-five is a count. It can be a slow count as in one thousand one, one thousand two etc. Eventually you will want to try to use your heartbeat as the counter but most when new have a difficult time feeling and monitoring their heartbeat while breathing or doing activities. 




> I will most certainly continue with my training, but I need a few days to calm down.


 
I wonder if you have done any of the Systema tense/relax inhale exhale body exercises? For instance inhaling thru the nose a long inhale and tensing the entire body then relaxing the body on the exhale switching the breathing and the areas of tension and types of tension type of exercise. I think that you will find real benefit from these types of exercises. Mikhail recommends that we do these every night and in the morning when we wake. I have found it very helpful in many different ways. 




> There's a big difference between being "tough" 


 
In my opinion Flea it is not about being tough but being honest. Poznai Sebia is what it is all about. 

I have not yet heard from anybody that has actually tried (EMDR) Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing treatment but have read that it has great success in dealing with PTSD. Have you any experience with these types of treatments?




> I've seen Janice's name as I've lurked on the Systema forum. Maybe I will drop her a line.


 
I think she would enjoy the conversation Flea. I was just sent a you-tube link that just so happens to have her and others doing some hitting drills The clip is called strikes Feb 09 and is located here http://www.youtube.com/user/FightClubmma

Warmest wishes Flea
Brian King


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## Flea (Feb 23, 2009)

Brian, you're the bee's knees.



> I am writing with you in mind (even if I have not meet you or know you) but I am also trying to write for others that may read this thread so some of what I write may not pertain to you or your current issues. With that in mind not every you written will correspond to you/Flea but may be a generic you.


I wouldn't have it any other way.  Honestly, when I made the OP, I assumed I was speaking for many people and wanted to be of service by coming out of the closet (a great metaphor for breaking silence about any taboo.)  



> Re-Experiencing the event can be a normal reaction to an abnormal event. It by itself does not necessarily mean that someone has PTSD just that they have to make peace/forgiveness with the memory and move on.


This sheds much more light for me.  By those criteria I no longer have PTSD in the classic sense, although I did for a long time after the initial incident.  I simply get very upset when I get too many reminders at one time.  Realizing I dont have (another) diagnosible mental illness is a great thing and I don't take that for granted.  Still, it's a convenient label to apply in explaining my situation as needed.



> It is not how often or even how badly you 'fail' it is whether you stop and give up or not or refuse to learn the lessons that the failure can teach.


I realize this is beside the point, but one reason I keep going back is that I don't want everyone else there to see me as a quitter.  Unproductive I know, but there you have it.  But it's more elevated than that; I also know that the real question is not the presence or absence of fear, but what one does with with it.  Some days I go in chating the AA mantra "just for today."  I give myself permission to sit on the sidelines or leave early (that's very rare,) as long as I keep my covenant with myself to _show up._  Once I do that, everything else usually falls into place and I have a great time.  It's a great metaphor for life, and I keep encountering these metaphors in Systema.  For me, that's a big part of the spiritual component.



> The three-five is a count. It can be a slow count as in one thousand one, one thousand two etc.


So ... that's inhale for a count of three, exhale for a count of five?  Or in/ex three, graduating to in/ex five?  I've ordered Let Every Breath through my library (I'm an incurable cheapskate!) but I'm not sure when it's coming in.  The tension exercise sounds good, I'll have to try that.  Out of curiosity, have you studied with Mikhail?



> Have you any experience with these types of treatments?


Nah.  I've been through literally dozens of therapists, hospitals, drugs, ad nauseum.  I'm completely burned out on professionals.  I know some people who've been helped immensely by EMDR and other treatments and I don't begrudge anyone their success, but every time I go to a psych professional I hold my nose and scramble away as soon as I possibly can.  It's one reason why I have such a response to my classmate; of course there's a high burnout factor in social services, but when people's lives are on the line there's no excuse (there's my inner activist again. )  I asked him about his experience and he said he did "code 100" work. The thing is, he has a crass sense of humor in general.  He grates on other people too.

In any case, I'm really glad I started this thread.  I've been deluged with PMs, all of which have been very supportive, and some confiding as well.  It means a lot to me to know that I've been able to help people.  Thanks so much everyone for joining in.  Let's keep this conversation going.

Flea


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## bluekey88 (Feb 23, 2009)

You've received lots of great advice.  Might I also suggest from a professional perspective looking into something called Trauma-Focused Cognitive Behavioral Therapy?  It's a version of standard CBT designed to help people deal with trauma...it's got some good empirical support.  It may give you some additional tools to put in the toolbox so to speak as you continue with your journey.

Good luck, and hang in there 

Peace,
Erik


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## Brian King (Feb 23, 2009)

*Flea wrote*


> So ... that's inhale for a count of three, exhale for a count of five? Or in/ex three, graduating to in/ex five?


 
LOL yes! It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish with the breathing. The basic way is to have the inhales/exhales and the suspensions between the two at the same count. If you think of a simple line drawing of a square each leg of the drawing representing part of the breathing sequence that might help. You can vary the length of the lines as you learn to control your breathing. Once you get good(ish) at the simple square breathing you can start to experiment by not only the length of breathing but you can start to vary the lengths between the different sections. Inhale for a count of 6 say, then hold for ten then exhale for three and hold for ten or any other combination. If done while walking or running you will find some combinations work better for you easing the work. For instance going up and down steep hills, or over broken terrain. It is a great way to see where you are greedy and needy in your breathing. Action professionals usually consider a 25 count as a good long distance while loaded with gear count. LOL I am not there.

This is important on a number of different levels but for your needs as I understand them it is important because breathing IS a bridge between your somatic and autonomic nervous systems allowing you to help control stress, heart rate etc. I hope that you can understand that?



>  I've ordered _Let Every Breath_ through my library (I'm an incurable cheapskate!) but I'm not sure when it's coming in.


 

You will enjoy the book. There are a couple of threads on here refering to the book. I think Xue Sheng did a review of it? 




> The tension exercise sounds good, I'll have to try that. Out of curiosity, have you studied with Mikhail?


 
The tension exercises ARE very good and have helped me in many different ways. When you are ready to try some let me know and I can write out some examples for you to try. There may be some on You tube as we do this at most seminars and such.

I have been fortunate to have been able to spend some time with Mikhail both on and off the training floor. I have not been to Moscow but he has came to the States and to Canada a few times. 

Sorry to be brief but off to work

*Shesulsa* THANK YOU for taking the time to find for me that thread that you mentioned. As I said my search fu is very weak. I will be reading it tonight after work.

*Bluekey88*


> Might I also suggest from a professional perspective looking into something called Trauma-Focused Cognitive Behavioral Therapy?


 
Thanks for the hint. From some quick searches it looks interesting.

Regards
Brian King


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## KELLYG (Feb 23, 2009)

Flea,

I have a great deal of respect for you and your attempt to overcome the obstacle that has been placed in front of you.  No you are not being a wimp these feelings do not have to make since to anyone but you because you are the only one living in your skin.   I think also a frank conversation with your instructor is warranted,  at least he/she will know that you are not being lazy or disrespectful,  but are having difficulty and trying to overcome.  Work in class to the point where you feel uncomfortable then side line yourself regroup and rejoin, this will allow you to recognize that you have the power to start and stop with out ill effect. I think that this  will help you regain your personal power and confidence.  Do you have someone at home that you can practice these maneuvers with that you trust?  If so show them what you were doing in class and have them work with you starting and stopping until you feel comfortable then move on the the next drill.   Work little bits by little bits till you can work a whole class.


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2009)

Flea, you have my admiration and respect!
I haven't had to deal with PTSD personally but many soldiers I work with and also train with have so your thread has been hugely informative and illuminating. Thank you!
I can't add anything other than there are some very good people here! Hang in there and keep posting please, you're part of us now! Can't give you advice I'm afraid due to my lack of knowledge but you have my prayers and good wishes


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## Flea (Feb 23, 2009)

Thanks Tez.  I'm glad to be here.  A couple months ago I tried airing a little of this on a different MA forum and got piled upon.  I've gone back there once or twice as a lurker and found that it wasn't really me; it's just a "spirited" environment.  Good for them; I don't need it myself.  

May I ask in what capacity you work with soldiers?  My grandfather was an army chaplain for 25 years.  I don't know whether he worked with "shell shock" cases, but it would stand to reason that he did.

After the shock to my system, I'm happy to say I'm just about back to my equilibrium.  It's amazing what naps and comfort food will do.  :drinkbeer I did yoga yesterday and found it very helpful, tonight I'll try some folk-dancing.  I think any non-confrontational exercise is a good step right now.  

My brain is still shooting me a couple curve balls; I got a new one today.  I was a music student at the time of ... yeah ... and very into avant-garde jazz and classical.  This morning I sacked out for a nap just in time for some roofers to BANG BANG ZZZZWEEEEE BANG next door.  I haven't listened to avant-garde in a very long time, but those roofers lulled me gently to sleep.  When I woke up, I listened to it with great pleasure for almost an hour before getting up.  Most people would call it noise, to me it was aleotoric art.  I'm sure no therapist in the world would call that a flashback, but what the hey. If there's one thing I've learned from all my years of mental health treatment, it's that we're all unique.  Not everything is problematic for everyone, and no cure is universal either.  Maybe I should call those roofers back and ask them to re-do the job?  :wink2:


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## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2009)

My job is security and policing but I'm a civilian...I wouldn't job the army lol, I'm proudly ex Royal Air Force! 
Our martial arts club is mostly made up of soldiers and their families.We have thousands of soldiers here. 
At first glance the problems we have to deal with are probably common wherever you get loads of soldiers, bars and girls but there's been an undercurrent for a long time now. there's an increasing number of people coming back from Afghanistan severely injured, losing limbs, being disabled as well as many being killed, the soldiers who come through 'unharmed' are expected to get on with life despite what they have been through or seen.
We are getting increasing numbers of violent behaviour, alcoholism and drug taking. Domestic violence is up. After they are arrested for whatever they often talk, they say it isn't usually like them to go off on one, that they don't know why it happened. When you start looking into the case you find these soldiers have had their mates die on them or been injured dreadfully in the most awful ways. Many of the soliders are still in their teens, the older ones have also been through Iraq and the Balkans before that. The MOD is aware of the problem and are trying to get more mental health staff in but along with being British ( stiff upper lip doncha know) they are also soldiers who won't admit to having any mental problems.

I'm intrigued by you country dancing! what sort do you do?


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 23, 2009)

Just a side interjection.  MT prides itself on trying to be as accessible to everyone as it can be, and as was mentioned earlier, we have a private Womans Only forum. We take it's sanctity seriously, and validate access to ensure it's private and womans only. Even I don't have access to it.  On that note, if any of the ladies ever feel harassed, stalked, or otherwise made to feel "wrong" on here, notify our staff immediately.


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## Flea (Feb 23, 2009)

> I'm intrigued by you country dancing! what sort do you do?


It's called Contra Dancing ... from http://www.sbcds.org/contradance/whatis/ ...

_A caller, usually working with a group of live musicians, guides new and experienced dancers alike through a variety of dances.             __A dancer and his or her partner dance a series of figures, or moves, with each other and with another couple for a short time. They then repeat the same figures with another couple, and so on. The figures are similar to those of old-time square dancing. The figures are combined in different ways for each different dance._

** EDIT ** to add this Youtube link for any contra geeks or punishment gluttons: 




I wound up not going though ... I went down my icy steps yesterday ****-first and it just didn't bode well for two hours of jumping and spinning.  I used to be a hardcore regular, traveling to other cities many Saturday nights just to jump and spin.  It's one thing that made me fall in love with Systema - some of it feels downright ballroom.  I have a hard time occasionally with not suddenly dipping.  I don't think the teacher would appreciate high heels on the mats though.  :wink1:


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## shesulsa (Feb 23, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Just a side interjection.  MT prides itself on trying to be as accessible to everyone as it can be, and as was mentioned earlier, we have a private Womans Only forum. We take it's sanctity seriously, and validate access to ensure it's private and womans only. Even I don't have access to it.  On that note, if any of the ladies ever feel harassed, stalked, or otherwise made to feel "wrong" on here, notify our staff immediately.



What he said.


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## Tez3 (Feb 24, 2009)

Flea said:


> It's called Contra Dancing ... from http://www.sbcds.org/contradance/whatis/ ...
> 
> _A caller, usually working with a group of live musicians, guides new and experienced dancers alike through a variety of dances. __A dancer and his or her partner dance a series of figures, or moves, with each other and with another couple for a short time. They then repeat the same figures with another couple, and so on. The figures are similar to those of old-time square dancing. The figures are combined in different ways for each different dance._
> 
> ...


 

My daughter used to do ballet and when she started karate she seemed to have a head start over me! I've only know country dancing as in Scottish country dancing or Morris dancing. I think it's a shame that people don't dance very much anymore, lively music, good company and physical movement go a long way to lifting the spirits!

Sounds like you to need to do a bit of Judo for the breakfalls if you are going tumbling! I'm sure there's a thread on here that shows how people have used their break falling skills in situations like icy roads! I shall have to look up Systema, I've heard of it but not seen it in action as it were!.

Training in high heels would be fun lol, my daughters only five foot so when she goes out she wears huge high heels lol! She can run in them even, amazing!


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## Flea (Feb 24, 2009)

> I shall have to look up Systema, I've heard of it but not seen it in action as it were!.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbvzFXwHJnU&feature=related

The guy with the shaved head is me.  (_Riiiiiiiiight ..._)

One thing I like about Systema is that there isn't much in the way of "technique."  It's more about improv; the idea being that if someone comes at you with a movement not addressed by a particular technique, you're out of luck.   I'm still wrapping my head around the basic movement style, but after 4 months it's starting to get a little intuitive.  Last week I threw someone off balance a few times  without realizing it.  The teacher said "You've got the timing down! Great!"  At this point my rational mind kicked in and I couldn't figure it out.  So I gave up and decided not to try, and got it perfectly again.    Systema is very zen that way, and as a Buddhist that also helps me understand.  The constant reminders of that zen has also been excellent for my own spiritual practice too.

I've decided to talk to my teacher about all this and initiated a round of phone tag.  I'm not exactly sure what I'll say, but I just don't want to let this sit for too long in case I can't go on Thursday.  It's not rational, but I'm starting to get a "clear the air" feeling to all this.  I know I didn't do anything wrong and nobody has any reason to be mad at me over it.  I guess I just don't want to give that feeling a toe-hold.  Like I said, the whole thing has been embarrassing.


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## Flea (Feb 24, 2009)

Mea culpa.  Sorry about the double post!


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## shesulsa (Feb 24, 2009)

Flea said:


> Mea culpa.  Sorry about the double post!



No worries - staff can delete those.


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## Flea (Feb 27, 2009)

A quick update -  I went back to class last night.  Results, naturally, were mixed.

First, the negative ... I took the teacher aside beforehand to talk, got all flustered and babbled something or other.  I did decently well for most of the class, occasionally sitting down.  By the last half-hour I couldn't focus anymore and kept defaulting to things I had learned in my first couple classes.  By the end I was time-traveling like Doctor Who, with my visual memory even superimposing itself right onto the classroom.  Trippy - never had that happen before.  Once is enough for me.

The positive ... Above all, I stuck it out.  I even learned something, and while I still relatively lucid, it was fun.  After I got home I thought back and realized that the teacher went to great lengths to keep me comfortable.  The usually loud and boisterous atmosphere was very quiet and subdued.  The teacher worked with me almost exclusively, and gave me barely discernible pressure at every turn.  I didn't say anything, but I really appreciated it.

The other day I went back to the shelter and found myself with a different therapist, who kept repeating the canned answer that I need therapy, therapy, therapy.  Finally she told me about a support group meeting.  I'll hold my nose, but clearly I need something so I'll give it a try.  Even the teacher suggested that I "find someone to talk to."  *sigh*

I'm still determined to stick this out.  I've only been at MA for a few months, but I've already overcome some other obstacles.  This is just another one ... a really big one ... but just another one.  I've decided on a specific circuit-breaker to give myself permission to quit.  Until then?  I'll take it day by day.

Thanks for reading, everyone.


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## Tez3 (Feb 27, 2009)

I'm not putting down therapy but it does seem to be almost a national sport in America! It's not nearly as common in UK and Europe. What that means I'm not sure!
  A friend of mine, an RAF psychiatric nurse did a tour in Iraq a couple of years ago and worked with his American counterparts, he was amazed at the fact that nearly everyone was in therapy, therapists included. He was told the theory is that everyone has problems so needs therapy and if you think you don't, you need it more than most! This nurse is a good friend and a martial artist, he swears more by MA than he does the uncertain 'science' of psychiatry. I was talking to him recently and he said certainly talking to friends (or maybe better people who don't know you but are sympathetic) is good but you can dwell on things too long that way and prolong your problems. Physical activity is brilliant he says especially martial arts.


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## Flea (Mar 1, 2009)

Thank you Tez.

This morning I left a message with the teacher thanking him for being so helpful on Thursday night.  I didn't say anything at the time because I was still buried pretty deep in my head and didn't notice.  <blush>  It wouldn't surprise me if he shrugged it off as "just doing my job."  But everyone needs to feel appreciated, and he moved mountains for me the other night.  On many levels.



> he swears more by MA than he does the uncertain 'science' of psychiatry.



*I get it!!*  :ultracool  Not that I was ever a big fan of therapy, but in some circles in the US it's practically a social requirement. I don't begrudge anyone their success with it, but it's never done much for me.  I've found that I've made more progress in 4 months of Systema than I'd made in almost 20 years on the couch.  Amazing.  For me, it's the honesty of producing results - either I can knock someone off balance or I can't.  If I can't there's no shame in it, I just need more practice.  "Results" in therapy are so nebulous that you can go for decades without knowing whether you've gotten anywhere.  I'd call it masturbation, except that you can masturbate for free.  :whip1:


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## Brian King (Mar 4, 2009)

*Flea wrote:*


> tonight I'll try some folk-dancing.


 
Once I think it was in 2003 or so after an all day training event Mikhail was answering some of our questions about this and that. One of the attendees asked something about if there is no Systema training available in my location which Art (insert a couple of Martial Art styles) should I practice to get good at Systema or words to that effect. Without hesitation other than caused by the need of the translators he replied "Ballroom Dancing". The body awareness and sensitivity you develop as well as the awareness and sensitivity to others around you and your partner are great skills to process. I'll add a note here...want to learn some interesting throws and breaks...when your dance partner spins you Flea grip his hand (or thumb LOL) and don't let go while you do the spin or other movement umm or not. 



> " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbvzF...eature=related
> 
> The guy with the shaved head is me. (_Riiiiiiiiight ..._)


 
LOL! Alex Kostic is a GREAT guy and has great movement as well. He is a lot of fun to work with and have discussions with. Very philosophical in his intellect and a very honest worker that assures good training and good times any time he is around. We had him out here in 2006/2007. Good times.




> Like I said, the whole thing has been embarrassing.


 
It is good to be able to admit that you are embarrassed but to also be able to accept it is what it is and to drive on and do what needs to be done regardless of whatever emotion felt/experienced. Poznai Sebia applies here as this is a great opportunity for you to explore your understanding of who and what you are and why you feel or experience as you do. This is invaluable in my opinion and should be a very big part of your Systema training. You are not the first nor will you be the last to feel embarrassment during your training nor will this be the last time you feel embarrassment, it happens to all of us and should be enjoyed. One of our students was in Japan for a Systema seminar with both Mikhail and Vladimir and while walking across the gym floor stumbled tripped and fell to the floor then looked up and to see both Vladimir and Mikhail about five feet away looking at her. So total was the embarrassment that even getting off the floor was difficult as the body and mind seemed to fight for control. The embarrassment only lasted a brief moment as all three soon burst out in honest laughter and enjoyment of the moment. The student understood that they (Mikhail and Vlad) were laughing not at the student only but also at the knowledge that we all fall and that they themselves have fallen in the past and will do so in the future. It is good and required medicine for the ego and the pride as is honest laughter.

Regards 
Brian King


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## Brian King (Mar 4, 2009)

*Flea wrote:*


> A quick update - I went back to class last night.


 
Good for you Flea! I will also say it cause you may not yet understand it, but it is not only you that benefited from your going to class but the class also benefited as much if not even more than you did and the instructor benefited most of all. 



> By the last half-hour I couldn't focus anymore and kept defaulting to things I had learned in my first couple classes.


 
LOL welcome to the club LOL. If you are training honestly and pushing your understanding this will sometimes happen, kind of an information overload default mechanism. Another thing you will sometimes experience is the onset of not being able to do even the simplest of movements that even a short while ago were simple and mindless. My theory is this is often caused when you learning a new concept or principle and your mind is reconnecting the (neuron) pathways creating new shortcuts and detours that like driving thru a construction site can leave the old pathways confused. Both the confusion/clumsiness of movement and the fall back to earlier learned behavior/movement as well as the getting stuck doing the same movement over and over can also be the result of the stress of the situation(s).



> By the end I was time-traveling like Doctor Who, with my visual memory even superimposing itself right onto the classroom


 
I am Doctor Who challenged other than knowing it is a T.V. show I know nothing about it so I am not sure what you are saying in the above quote. 



> Even the teacher suggested that I "find someone to talk to." *sigh*


 
For thousands of years Flea soldiers would sit around campfires after a long days battles and rehash what happened long into the night. Under extreme stress our memories should be held suspect and only by rehashing it out with others that were also there can we reasonably reconstruct the chaos of what was not only happening to us but also around us. This discussion of the events is necessary not just to get a better handle of what the situation is/was, and not just so that others may learn from our experiences and that we can learn from their experiences, but positive honest reinforcement is necessary and provided. That reinforcement can often be a shared look of mutual understanding, a shared cry of relief or frustration, shared anger or feeling of helplessness. Modern soldiers no longer have the luxury of a nights shared campfire as battles now are fought continually for days at a time. Yet they still find a means of communicating with each other, helping to cleanse and free themselves and their comrades of a shared memory. Law enforcement officers, fire fighters EMT/Rescue workers as well as the soldiers have to fill out reports. These after action reports are so those higher up in the chain of command can better understand what happened and help the individual also come to an understanding of what happened, Even with these reports you will still see the police officers/fire fighters/emergency personnel clustered around each other after a high stress response rehashing what happened and getting and giving positive encouragement and feedback.
The same thing with bouncers and door workers. Either right after a ruckus or after the last customer leaves they gather and rehash the events and get positive encouragement and feedback. This shared laughter and perhaps tears strengthens them as both individuals and as a team/unit. This is commonly understood and experienced by violence and other action professionals, It is only the child and the adult civilian that does not automatically have this resource. In fact not only do they not have this resource but they are often given the exact opposite treatment. Their family and friends do not know how to respond so they stay away giving someone distance to heal. The child or adult civilian may not have anybody in their immediate family or close friends who have the shared experiences to offer them honest positive encouragement or understanding. Worse yet they may have a family member or friend that does have the shared experience but have never themselves been able to heal and move on and rather than positive feedback and encouragement get the opposite with both negative encouragement and self destructive anger and poor modeling of what it means to be a survivor, Talking it out is one means of gaining understanding and moving towards closure. It is not the only way but it has proved effective for thousands of years. Your posting on this forum Flea is a way of sounding it out and perhaps getting some better understanding or meaning from it all and I am sure has helped others or will in the future. The who you talk to is less important than the questions you ask yourself and hopefully the answers/understanding that you gain from asking them in my opinion. 

Have fun with your training and stay honest to yourself and your training partners and you will have a great journey LOL not easy but a positive life changing journey.

Regards
Warmest wishes
Brian King


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## Flea (Mar 4, 2009)

> they (Mikhail and Vlad) were laughing not at the student only but also at the knowledge that we all fall and that they themselves have fallen in the past and will do so in the future.


Right.  Since starting Systema I've heard embarrassment referred to as "false pride."  I didn't quite understand that - it seems like it would be the opposite - false humility for seeing oneself as diminished when that's not the case.  I guess it could be false pride if one expects never to fail in the first place.



> Without hesitation other than caused by the need of the translators he replied "Ballroom Dancing". The body awareness and sensitivity you develop as well as the awareness and sensitivity to others around you and your partner are great skills to process.


Oh good, so it's not just me!  Last month I simply couldn't take the ballroom resemblance anymore and told my partner "here, let me try something.  Now hold your arms out like this and follow my lead ..."  He got all flustered and embarrassed himself and I quickly gave up once I realized he had absolutely _no_ context to fit that into.  (besides, his form was terrible. :lol:  Hasn't he ever watched _Dancing With The Stars?_  Hmph! Men!!)  Too bad - it would have been fun, and I would have picked up on that particular Systema movement much more quickly.

Back to the PTSD theme ... the other night the therapist hooked me up with a support group, and it's a good fit.  Shesulsa suggested keeping a Systema journal, and I may just incorporate my thoughts from this group in there too.  It seems to be the same journey.  Who knew a simple moment of urban paranoia could evolve into something so complex and rich?  I am a big believer in things unfolding as they're meant to ... so I'm riding it out on faith.  Somewhere in the New Testament it says that the Divine doesn't give us more than we can handle.  I don't always agree with that, but it's amazed me how the universe has come together to uphold me through this just when I've needed it most.  (I include everyone who's offered me their support on this thread too. It got me through a very rough spot last week and I thank you all.)   It gives me courage to take the next step, and the next.


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## Tez3 (Mar 4, 2009)

Good for you Flea! I expect now you're in shock like me that there's someone who doesn't know about Doctor Who lol! 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who

Funny thing is it seems I've watched the Doctor all my life and I can equate things happening in my life over the years with which ever actor was the doctor at the time, when I was younger and things were painful I'd pretend I was one of his assistants and I could leave with him and have adventures, at the moment the programmes are rather sombre as he faces being the last of his people and losing the assistants and people he loved which at the moment I can totally idenify with. Strange how a television programme can resonate in your life. Perhaps we all need a little escapism sometimes.

I can't remember who but I do know it was one of your president's wives who said a woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she can be until she's in hot water! flea, I predict that you are going to be the finest English tea with the exact strength you need!(and maybe some left over)


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## Flea (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks Tez.

For the last few days I've had an Ani DiFranco song lodged in my head (not unusual for me.)  This song resonates especially for me these days, so I'll take this excuse to act like a swooning fangirl  :dramaqueen: (or would that be fangrrl?)  and post the lyrics ...



> i am not a pretty girl
> that is not what i do
> i ain't no damsel in distress
> and i don't need to be rescued
> ...


Wow.


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## Ronin74 (Mar 4, 2009)

Wow Flea. I don't think I would've had the courage to openly going through PTSD, but you have my utmost respect and kudos. I'm currently going to counseling for an apparently unresolved issue that's resulted it me going through PTSD as well.

What I can tell you is that if you do love training, don't walk away from it. Take babysteps if you have to, but don't walk away from it. I made the mistake of running away from all of it, and as a result, I have to take even smaller steps to get back into it. For myself, I let the strain of it pull me away from martial arts, which resulted not only in me not having the confidence to teach martial arts anymore, but quietly going through a downward spiral. I'm currently dealing- and luckily overcoming- issues that I never thought I'd have, such as violent outbursts, suicidal thoughts, using alcohol as "a way out", etc.

When I started trying to get help, I went to past teachers (not in the arts) and old training partners, and they all concluded what the counselor told me. Which was to get back (slowly) into martial arts training. she said not to get caught up with the style, or get attached to the instructors or fellow students, but just to let myself start moving in a way I was trained. If martial arts allows you for that one "Zen" moment- even if it's once a week- don't let it go.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi Flea, Many people have brought up good points. 

One of the things I have said is italicized in one of the earlier posts that one will absolutely go a long way for you.

_Part of the healing process is getting physically stronger, doing all the things you need to do. Not just for your instructor but for yourself too._


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## Flea (Mar 7, 2009)

We did grappling again today, and I had a radical shift.  I went as far as pinning one guy for about a minute, and then stepped back.  That was enough ... but it was a peaceful enough.  No angst, and better yet, I stayed though the rest of class!  Who knew?  

:bangahead:

So this may be the key for me - gradual exposure in tiny increments.  Slllllooooooowwwww desensitization.  I see nothing wrong with that, and nobody else seemed to today either.  Of course I usually have a delayed reaction to this stuff, so the real test may come tomorrow or Monday.  But I refuse to borrow trouble - I'll worry about that if I get there.

At any rate, I'm not sure how appropriate it is to prattle on about oneself at MT, so I may quit after this unless someone expresses an interest.  But I wanted to offer some good news, if only as a positive way to end the thread.  I hope y'all enjoyed it.


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## shesulsa (Mar 7, 2009)

Baby steps, Flea.  

Baby steps.


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## Brian King (Mar 12, 2009)

*Flea wrote:*


> Slllllooooooowwwww desensitization.


 
Flea, I am glad that you went back to training and have noticed improvement both in physical movement as well as the strengthening of your psyche and your ability to maintain your comportment. I might encourage you to take a look at the word desensitization. While it is a way of dealing with issues I personally do not think that it is the best way. I am likely dealing with mostly semantics here so of course your mileage and the mileage of anyone one else reading this might vary. To me desensitizing implies deadening sensitivity. I think this is a mistake. One needs to separate the emotional arousal from the physical act or the memory of an event/trauma I agree but rather than deadening sensitivity I think that a better method is to increase the sensitivity to the beginning of the emotion/arousal and to practice the learned cleansing methods to control the emotion. Deadening, ignoring and toughing it out only help to a point but if the emotions get to be too much they suddenly erupt when the deadening ignoring toughing it out methods fail. Consider fear. An analogy I once heard during a physically mentally and spiritually difficult Systema seminar was to look at fear as an avalanche of rocks (it helped that we were in the mountainous outdoors). If we try to stop an avalanche once it has started and the rocks are all sliding and bounding down the mountainside it will prove to be very difficult, but how much easier if we can catch it at the very beginning, when that first little pebble starts to shift and put it back into place before its actions cascade into the full avalanche. If we can become sensitive enough to feel the first stirrings of fear, if we can become sensitive enough to feel that invasive tension and stress while it is still at skin level (or t-shirt level), if we can become sensitive enough to feel the beginnings of strain and exertion then we can use the cleansing and strengthening methods ( I am referring for this discussion to primarily some of the breathing skills as well as the permeation work) to help us understand and deal with whatever the situation is and its effects on our psyche non-destructively. 

*Tez3 wrote:*



> I'm not putting down therapy but it does seem to be almost a national sport in America! It's not nearly as common in UK and Europe. What that means I'm not sure!
> A friend of mine, an RAF psychiatric nurse did a tour in Iraq a couple of years ago and worked with his American counterparts, he was amazed at the fact that nearly everyone was in therapy, therapists included. He was told the theory is that everyone has problems so needs therapy and if you think you don't, you need it more than most! This nurse is a good friend and a martial artist, he swears more by MA than he does the uncertain 'science' of psychiatry. I was talking to him recently and he said certainly talking to friends (or maybe better people who don't know you but are sympathetic) is good but you can dwell on things too long that way and prolong your problems. Physical activity is brilliant he says especially martial arts. 


 
Great post Tez3
One of the problems with many therapists is that they came into the field broken and seeking healing but became experts while remaining broken as it were. They have not been able to fix their issues even if better able to cope with them and since they are broken and it seems natural then everyone else must also be broken. Add to that since they had to change what is normal over the years as a coping mechanism their truth has now become that it takes years or decades to heal. Another danger that they often have is that as healers they become too empathetic to others around them and both assume some of the illnesses and learn that everyone is ill as that is who they see all the time. 




> but you can dwell on things too long that way and prolong your problems.


 
Absolutely true in my opinion. People can become identified with their victim hood or their illnesses. If they start to get their identity from their issue, if they get attention sympathy and other benefits they can lose the desire to regain the normalcy and balance that a healthy life requires. It can also become an easy excuse to fail at an attempt (losing the chance to learn from failure) or worse an excuse to not even attempt and can also justify laziness and self-pity. 




> Physical activity is brilliant he says


 
Again I absolutely agree with him. LOL in the spirit of Dr. Who and comparing life to TV we have a show on TV over here called Dog Whisperer This show has Cesar the expert go to peoples homes and help them with their canine issues. One of the big issues is that the animals (human owners as well as dogs LOL)do not get enough exercise. One of the best ways he helps dogs with their issues is to get the owners to walk them. People and their issues are not much different. Many primitive societies have had dance and chants as a main ingredient of their healing traditions. Breathing and moving. Modern medicine is finally catching up. 

*Ronin 74 wrote:*




> I'm currently dealing- and luckily overcoming- issues that I never thought I'd have, such as violent outbursts, suicidal thoughts, using alcohol as "a way out", etc.


 
That you are making progress is great news and puts you leaps and bounds ahead of many others who are struggling with the issues without even noticing or acknowledging that they even have the issues. So many deal with lifes daily tensions and stressors by self medicating with alcohol nicotine caffeine and or narcotics. They often cannot even feel the accumulative effects of tension and stress until they erupt in self destructive outbursts often at the slightest little thing (straw that broke the camels back). It is even more difficult for those that are facing unresolved trauma in their past again often not even knowing it. It is great Ronin 74 that you are getting professional help and making progress, the downward spiral has to be terrifying for both you and your loved ones. Please feel free contacting me if you feel the need although not a professional shrink I do believe as E.E. Smith wrote pain shared is pain divided and Joy shared is joy multiplied 

Ronin 74 I do not know if your counseling and/or your martial arts training and background included the exploration of different breathing skills or not. Breathing IS a bridge between your somatic and autonomic nervous systems allowing you to help control stress, heart rate etc and is a great tool in learning to deal with trauma (physical mental and spiritual traumas) I highly recommend the book and/or the DVD Let Every Breath by Vladimir Vasiliev and Scott Meredith. It is not difficult but has changed for the positive many many peoples lives.

Thank you again Flea and Ronin 74 for your honesty and openness in your dealings with your past traumas. I hope that the thread has helped you and perhaps helps others as well. I wish you both God speed on your healing journey and recovery.

Warmest wishes
Brian King


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## morph4me (Mar 12, 2009)

Flea said:


> We did grappling again today, and I had a radical shift. I went as far as pinning one guy for about a minute, and then stepped back. That was enough ... but it was a peaceful enough. No angst, and better yet, I stayed though the rest of class! Who knew?
> 
> :bangahead:
> 
> ...


 
Flea, one of the things I really enjoy about  MT  is that you can find support when you need it, you can vent when you have to, and it's perfectly acceptable to do it. MT is a community like any other, you have people to laugh with, th argue with, and to vent to, and who's strength you can borrow, and whose knowledge and support they generously give. Feel free to take advantage, you're contributing more than you might realize.


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## Flea (Mar 12, 2009)

Thanks so much for the responses!  It looks like it's time to keep this conversation going after all.  :ultracool



> Absolutely true in my opinion. People can become identified with their victim hood or their illnesses. If they start to get their identity from their issue, if they get attention sympathy and other benefits they can lose the desire to regain the normalcy and balance that a healthy life requires. It can also become an easy excuse to fail at an attempt (losing the chance to learn from failure) or worse an excuse to not even attempt and can also justify laziness and self-pity.


Brian, this is a _major major_ thing for me.  I definitely over-identify with my "issues."  Of course, some issues are more equal than others and the trick is finding the balance between self-care and self-pity.  I don't claim to know the answer to this very subjective question.  My personal dividing line is the moment when (in class, for example) I realize that my anxiety or depression level has reached a point where it is threatening to snowball on its own if I don't take a breather and collect myself.  I know precisely where that internal point is, and I've learned the hard way precisely how far I can afford to push it.  I guess this also speaks to your comments on sensitization too.  I'm very good at reading my internal climate and responding to it.  This is usually a healthy thing, although I do occasionally go a bit far in favor of caution.  I do my best to challenge myself (especially in class,) but the consequences simply aren't worth it when I go too far.  I've grown a lot over the past few years and pushed my threshold way beyond what I ever expected.    Naturally, I speak only for myself on this.



> They have not been able to fix their issues even if better able to cope with them and since they are broken and it seems natural then everyone else must also be broken.


In other words, humans universally create or view the world in our own image.  I've seen it more times than I can count.  People who are angry and lonely chase potential friends away so as to "control" the rejection, making it less scary as it inevitably happens.  People who enjoy life draw others in to that.  For that matter I see it with dogs too - if the human is an unhappy person, they'll create an unhappy dog whose alpha projects that ... and often takes it out on the dog.  So it's only natural that a broken healer would conform a patient/client to their personal model of "health," if it's what they know.  That's why I reject therapy myself.

Shesulsa, You're so right about the baby steps.  I've been making a point of tuning in to my intuition more lately and finding out that I'm smarter than I give myself credit for.  It's a great feeling.  I fly by my intuition a lot, so I consider it to be the foundation of my healing in many ways.  (Another nod to Brian's sensitization.)  The other day I found out that I had dodged an impressive bullet a couple years before by rejecting the advances of someone Not Quite Right ... turns out he was a bit of a sociopath.  So I'm learning.  I really am.  The progress is very gratifying.  I'm gravitating back towards the "recovery" mentality of healing being a full time job; I've gotten a lot of messages lately from the Universe that it's time I went back to work in earnest.  Between my spirituality, my support group at the shelter, and Systema I'm feeling prepared to clock in. 

Thanks again to everyone for listening.  It's made a huge difference for me.


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## Flea (Mar 12, 2009)

For what it's worth, I had an interesting revelation on the way home from class tonight.  We worked on beating each other with sticks, and stretching each other, walking on each other's backs, and ... what would you call it? ... deep pressure in the gut.  I'm sure all these exercises have catchy names in Russian.  

At any rate, I realized on the way home that what I got out of it was a deep sense of nurturing.  Touch is a deep and universal human need, and I simply don't get it.  I live alone, I telecommute for a job that's 4 states away, and I have no mate.  So the only physical contact I get is from my adoring pets.  I don't take them for granted, but it's just not the same.  So even though it left bruises, I got _touched_ tonight.  Never mind the context, it felt great.

If that isn't divine irony, I don't know what is ... as I work overtime to reconcile memories of abuse, I would get such a sense of nurturing and fulfillment from having someone pound me with a stick.  Probably a good thing I didn't think to mention it in class ... :barf:



> Wow Flea. I don't think I would've had the courage to openly going through PTSD, but you have my utmost respect and kudos.


Ronin74, it's not such a big deal.  I'll say just about anything in the anonymity of an online forum.  It's a relatively safe space because there's no one there physically to react with body language or the like.  What takes real guts is being this forthcoming in Meatspace - something I wouldn't do.  In fact, if any of my Meatspace friends came across this thread and recognized my voice, I'd be mortified.  That's why I won't give my location - it would be all to easy for someone to track me down as the only woman in the only Systema class for a radius of a few hundred miles.  I'm not worried about someone kicking my ****, I'm worried about them putting a face to my neuroses.  Now what takes _real_ guts is facing down one's personal demons, and we're both true warriors there.


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## Ronin74 (Mar 13, 2009)

Flea said:


> Ronin74, it's not such a big deal. I'll say just about anything in the anonymity of an online forum. It's a relatively safe space because there's no one there physically to react with body language or the like. What takes real guts is being this forthcoming in Meatspace - something I wouldn't do. In fact, if any of my Meatspace friends came across this thread and recognized my voice, I'd be mortified. That's why I won't give my location - it would be all to easy for someone to track me down as the only woman in the only Systema class for a radius of a few hundred miles. I'm not worried about someone kicking my ****, I'm worried about them putting a face to my neuroses. Now what takes _real_ guts is facing down one's personal demons, and we're both true warriors there.


True, the anonymity of cyberspace does serve as a nice buffer, but even I wasn't ready to open up about it online, just because I know one of my former training partners was a member on this forum, and I wouldn't be surprised if a few others are.

As far as facing our own personal demons, I don't think I could've put it any better. I can't say enough about how much martial arts training helps.



> That you are making progress is great news and puts you leaps and bounds ahead of many others who are struggling with the issues without even noticing or acknowledging that they even have the issues. So many deal with lifes daily tensions and stressors by self medicating with alcohol nicotine caffeine and or narcotics. They often cannot even feel the accumulative effects of tension and stress until they erupt in self destructive outbursts often at the slightest little thing (straw that broke the camels back). It is even more difficult for those that are facing unresolved trauma in their past again often not even knowing it. It is great Ronin 74 that you are getting professional help and making progress, the downward spiral has to be terrifying for both you and your loved ones. Please feel free contacting me if you feel the need although not a professional shrink I do believe as E.E. Smith wrote pain shared is pain divided and Joy shared is joy multiplied
> 
> Ronin 74 I do not know if your counseling and/or your martial arts training and background included the exploration of different breathing skills or not. Breathing IS a bridge between your somatic and autonomic nervous systems allowing you to help control stress, heart rate etc and is a great tool in learning to deal with trauma (physical mental and spiritual traumas) I highly recommend the book and/or the DVD Let Every Breath by Vladimir Vasiliev and Scott Meredith. It is not difficult but has changed for the positive many many peoples lives.



Thanks Brian. Surprisingly, you painted a fairly accurate picture of what it's been like. It has taken a toll on my family as well as myself, and that "straw that broke the camel's back" has brought some grief to my family. It's not to say that things won't improve, but I can say that relationships between myself and my family won't be healing anytime soon. I think one of the hardest things in all of this is realizing that- at least for now- I need to let go of them and work on healing myself first.

As far as breathing is concerned, I'm probably going to look that book or DVD up. I try to focus on my breathing when I'm at the pool, but that might give mt some good tips as well.


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## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2009)

Ronin and Flea don't either of you feel you have to stop posting unless you want to! 
Brian, your advice is brilliant. Even without PTSD we all have our times when we need help and I for one will be taking some of your advice away with me. thank you.


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## Ronin74 (Mar 13, 2009)

Thanks to Tez3 and to all prior posters showing their support. I'm with Flea in that neither of us want to feel like we're droning on about ourselves, so it means a lot to know that other forum members are offering encouragment and support.

Something I'd like to share- and maybe you might agree on this one Flea, though I don't mean to speak on your behalf- is that having gone through our own individual traumas does take the wind out of your sails. As the years progressed for me, I found myself becoming more and more paralyzed by fear, to the point that I stopped training for some time. However, getting help, as well as joining the MT forum has allowed me to make progress, in part to the support I get from both my counselor as well as the members here.

Something I've been finding inspiring is how in many ways, this mirrors some of the more positive aspects of the martial arts. Much like our different styles, our opinions differ from one another, and given the topic at hand, can result in a clear, but still civil disputes that we can still learn and grow from. However, when a fellow martial artist is down, we reach out and try to offer some help, regardless of style or background.

That is one of the things in martial arts that I've always admired, and one of the things I'm glad to see here on the MT forums.


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## Flea (Mar 15, 2009)

> Much like our different styles, our opinions differ from one another, and given the topic at hand, can result in a clear, but still civil disputes that we can still learn and grow from. However, when a fellow martial artist is down, we reach out and try to offer some help, regardless of style or background.



Ronin74, that reminds me of a phrase used sometimes in my religious path; "in perfect love and perfect trust."  It's an unrealistic standard to be sure, but it encapsulates what a community _can_ be if it strives for that level of civility and mutual care.  If only we could find that in our day-to-day ... like the Golden Rule, the phrase is a tool for mindfulness as we strive toward the goal.


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## Ronin74 (Mar 15, 2009)

Flea said:


> Ronin74, that reminds me of a phrase used sometimes in my religious path; "in perfect love and perfect trust." It's an unrealistic standard to be sure, but it encapsulates what a community _can_ be if it strives for that level of civility and mutual care. If only we could find that in our day-to-day ... like the Golden Rule, the phrase is a tool for mindfulness as we strive toward the goal.


It's definitely a goal that takes a lot of work, and once accomplished, is even harder to maintain. However, the outcomes are almost always beneficial for all.

I think a major key is to remember what brings us together, rather than what keeps us apart. Using MT as an example, distance, anonymity, differences in styles and opinions, experience and background are just a few of the things that keep us seperated. However, I think it would be next to impossible to find a forum member who's interest in martial arts is just a "passing interest", and it's that love for the arts alone that brings everyone to the table for healthy discussion.


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## Flea (Mar 20, 2009)

For what it's worth ...

I spoke with a non-specialist the other day and she theorized that PTSD is a _management_ condition, like diabetes.  There is no cure, it may go into remission from time to time, but it always needs monitoring.

Is this true?  Does anyone know?  I'd hate to think it is, but it resonates with my own experience.


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## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2009)

Flea said:


> For what it's worth ...
> 
> I spoke with a non-specialist the other day and she theorized that PTSD is a _management_ condition, like diabetes. There is no cure, it may go into remission from time to time, but it always needs monitoring.
> 
> Is this true? Does anyone know? I'd hate to think it is, but it resonates with my own experience.


 
I don't know but I know several people who'll give me their opinion on what the current military medical thinking is here if that helps.


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## shesulsa (Mar 20, 2009)

Flea said:


> For what it's worth ...
> 
> I spoke with a non-specialist the other day and she theorized that PTSD is a _management_ condition, like diabetes.  There is no cure, it may go into remission from time to time, but it always needs monitoring.
> 
> Is this true?  Does anyone know?  I'd hate to think it is, but it resonates with my own experience.



That resonates with my own experience as well and everyone else I have known with PTSD.  I'm pretty fortunate - my teacher has worked with me for twelve years and though I still startle at loud noises, it's only half the time it used to be.  Truthfully, I've never had flashbacks, though I can remember the events that traumatized me as though they happened this morning - I remember smells, colors, clothing, hair styles, background details, the length of my fingernails, etcetera. I can see it as though it were a picture and video through my own eyes.

Keep on keepin' on, Flea. Baby steps and lots of support.  

Listen ... don't be too proud to get some very real professional help if you have to.  Don't hesitate - you're more than worth it, okay?


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## Ronin74 (Mar 21, 2009)

Flea said:


> For what it's worth ...
> 
> I spoke with a non-specialist the other day and she theorized that PTSD is a _management_ condition, like diabetes. There is no cure, it may go into remission from time to time, but it always needs monitoring.
> 
> Is this true? Does anyone know? I'd hate to think it is, but it resonates with my own experience.


Hey Flea. I had a similar conversation when I first began counseling, and the therapist mentioned something you may find relevant. She said that labeling it- whether by name or by trying to classify it- was something that I shouldn't worry about. What she said was that taking the initiative to work at it was the most important thing. Personally, I don't think it would need "monitoring" in the same sense of having diabetes, but when the _bad days_ come, it important to remember our coping skills.

We might never be "cured" (if there is such a thing for this), but I don't think it negates any chances of us leading full and normal lives. It may take us time, but it's definitely not impossible.


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## Ronin74 (Mar 21, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Listen ... don't be too proud to get some very real professional help if you have to. Don't hesitate - you're more than worth it, okay?


Words of wisdom right there.


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## Flea (Mar 21, 2009)

Ronin74 said:


> Words of wisdom right there.



Wisdom indeed!

I consider my MA to be my front line of professional help; I've made more progress in five months of that than I've made in 20 years on the couch.  My current secondary "help" is attending a domestic violence support group at my city's shelter.  It's a weird experience.  Everyone else in the group is in the trenches, neck deep in restraining orders, safety plans, and bitter child custody disputes.  Some show up with fresh bruises every week.  :angry:  I've thought about showing them some simple evasive moves, but once when I offered the woman thought I was suggesting that she beat up her kid.

It feels very strange to me to be there since my experience was so many years ago, but everyone has embraced me.  Occasionally the therapist holds me up as "Exhibit A" that one really _can_ come through this.  (But if that were the case, would I really need that group?)  It still amazes me just how naive I was at the time.  I'd never heard of a shelter, I'd never even really heard of the concept of domestic violence in the first place.  My parents were snubbing me because I was 'living in sin,' and we lived at the end of a looooooooong road in a very scary neighborhood where it wasn't even a good idea for a woman to walk alone in broad daylight.  So I really was at his mercy.  I digress.

At this point I don't know what else to do but put one foot in front of the other.  I'm not having the fun in class that I used to because I'm buried pretty deep in my head.  But I keep going because I do still enjoy it, and I know it's good for me on so many levels.  And as I've said before, while quitting may be a seductively easy way to smooth dirt back over this mess, it won't change the past.  Above all I'm not sure what else to do and I have to do _something._

Thanks for reading.


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## Tez3 (Mar 21, 2009)

From my RAF psychiatric nurse mate (and MA training partner) yes it can be cured, not instantly of course and it takes a competant therapist to work with you. Takes support (that'll be us lot ) and work but there's plenty of hope! I think Ronin's right labelling it is maybe not a good idea, we all have bad days, I do, when I really struggle to get out of bed and find any meaning to life but we all have ways to work it out. 
For someone to say to you that _every_ bad day is because you have PTSD and it can't be cured, could make you you think that you are worse than you are and you'll feel despondant, sometimes we have bad days and you would anyway. Sometimes life gets us down anyway so we have to accept it and find our particular way of coping, there's been threads on here before on how different people cope with a lousy day. When it is a bad day because of the PTSD you will have your coping stategies for that. 
Sometimes having a condition means everything is labeled as being down to that condition, a couple of years ago I went to the doctor because I thought I was going mad, I couldn't remember things, I'd put weight on, was depressed, kept fainting, was exhausted and he put it all down to menopause saying "you have to accept it's your age" gave me anti depressives though they didn't work funnily enough, telling me it has to be put up with. After I ended up in hospital it was found I had quite a severe (probably because it had been left too long) thyroid problem. While I feel better now I'm still trying to get the weight off. That doctor actually got the sack though nothing to do with me, if I see him I may just have to shake him warmly by the throat!

My friend did say that often people aren't considered cured because they aren't 'happy, bouncy' people who walk through life with a big smile on their faces (now thats not normal!) and the truth is that no one is, we all have to accept that life isn't smooth that being down is also normal and shouldn't be confused with being sick or depressed just because one has a condition that may make you down as well. We have to allow for the normal rhythms of life, then you can deal with the things that aren't normal for you.


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## Tez3 (Mar 21, 2009)

Flea, you will get get where you want to be, I don't doubt it. If you can keep with the martial arts do,they are good for so many reasons. Training with your head somewhere else happens to everyone at times, you're not the 'odd' one, it's the ebb and flow of life, you're doing fine girl!


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## Ronin74 (Mar 21, 2009)

Flea said:


> Some show up with fresh bruises every week. :angry: I've thought about showing them some simple evasive moves, but once when I offered the woman thought I was suggesting that she beat up her kid.


I was once told that when we start getting help, it can be empowering enough to mke us want to share that and help others. Unfortunately, not everyone is _ready_ for it. I once tried to teach self-defense to a good friend of mine, but she initially interpreted it as using violence against violence.



Flea said:


> It feels very strange to me to be there since my experience was so many years ago, but everyone has embraced me. Occasionally the therapist holds me up as "Exhibit A" that one really _can_ come through this. (But if that were the case, would I really need that group?) It still amazes me just how naive I was at the time. I'd never heard of a shelter, I'd never even really heard of the concept of domestic violence in the first place. My parents were snubbing me because I was 'living in sin,' and we lived at the end of a looooooooong road in a very scary neighborhood where it wasn't even a good idea for a woman to walk alone in broad daylight. So I really was at his mercy. I digress.


I try to look at getting through trauma as some of the "baby steps" that Shelusa refers to. Even when we've gotten over it, we still need to re-learn how to walk again, and from there begin progressing even further.



Flea said:


> At this point I don't know what else to do but put one foot in front of the other. I'm not having the fun in class that I used to because I'm buried pretty deep in my head. But I keep going because I do still enjoy it, and I know it's good for me on so many levels. And as I've said before, while quitting may be a seductively easy way to smooth dirt back over this mess, it won't change the past. Above all I'm not sure what else to do and I have to do _something._


The key thing is you're enjoying it. I used to teach martial arts, it felt like a burden sometimes, and when things went bad, I really sort of walked away from martial arts. Then someone once told me to start training again. My mind snapped back to it feeling like a burden to teach, but they told me to do it for myself this time- not so I can be a teacher, or a fighter, or whatever- but to be me. So when I was looking at some of the weapons I put into storage, it brought me back to something I had read where a burnt-out swordsman was confronted by his teacher. While showing him his sword, he told him "don't look at it as your burden, but as your salvation."

Our past traumas make it so hard to do things we used to enjoy. As of this moment, I'm trying to get myself fired up to hit the gym- and I used to be an exercise addict. However, as hard as it may be- and there's nothing wrong with taking time off to recollect- I get myself in there when I can because I know it's part of that "road back" to where I want to be and want to go.

As corny as it sounds, I try to look at martial arts as the perfect mate. Once I met her, I was instantly smitten, and never got tired of her, even during the rough spots. We gave each other our all, and it was mutual. If I gave a passing glance to another, she forgave me, but if my attention went elsewhere, I dealt with the consequences. During these past few years, she never left me, even though my own personal demons put a barrier between us. But now that I'm ready to re-commit, she's still there, waiting with open arms and whatever love I can take in. It won't be easy, but she's still there. Now with a mate like that, who wouldn't go back?

But that's just my two cents.


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## Flea (Mar 21, 2009)

For what it's worth ... I grappled for almost 20 minutes this morning, really light simple stuff.  I did about 15, then had to stop for a while, then _went_ _back!!_ 

:headbangin:

So I'm getting there.  I knew I could.  I just have to pace myself; I think I've done very well.


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## KELLYG (Mar 23, 2009)

15 minutes grappling.   That is awesome knowing how it has affected you in the past.  Take the 't out of can't. It is amazing once you have changed your personal perception of what you can do and what you can't do, how quickly things work out. Keep nibbling at it and you will be astounded at what you can do.


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## bluekey88 (Mar 23, 2009)

That's really awesone Flea.  Keep up the good work there.  

Peace,
Erik


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## Carol (Mar 23, 2009)

Fanstastic job Flea!  :asian:


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## Flea (Apr 29, 2009)

I got it again last night.  

It didn't help that the night before some dolt messed with me on the street, and so I had spent much of the day cruising a particular neighborhood looking for houses up for sale.  In other words, I had been in a fearful place for the past 18 hours or so.

We were working with arm grabs and evasions.  While it's nothing like grappling, it's still a tough thing for me.  I pushed through growing anxiety for a good half hour or so until we switched partners and the teacher approached me for a grab.  I must have looked pretty rough because he stopped cold.  I stammered something about needing a break.  That break lasted about 40 minutes, and I finally jumped back in for the last 15 or so, doing strikes.  I doled out a few, and they only struck me when I asked for it.  Apparently, I'm getting pretty good at striking.  :mst:  I could feel a clear difference from the last time I did that, and everyone else commented on it too.  So that was a positive note to end on.

My reason for bringing this up here is twofold: the first is that I get really angry with myself when this happens.  It's been almost 20 years; what's _wrong_ with me?!?  This quickly snowballs into a depression and everything that entails.  I know it's not constructive, but that's emotion for you.  It just is.

The other thing is that I don't know how to work through the anxiety when I'm in the thick of a workout.  I don't want to stop, but I'm not sure how else to go about this.  Most of the advice I've gotten reads like this:

http://www.mosaicminds.org/safe-ground-new.shtml



> One of the fastest ways to ground, or bring yourself back from the past mentally is _*to     shock your body of sorts*_. Many people recommended ice or ice water for this...  Keep telling yourself "That was then, this is now". Say it out loud. Notice     things that reinforce that knowledge. Get in touch with where you are. Chances are you are     having a hard time remembering that the memory, whatever it is, is not happening now. Look     around you. See where you are.


A lot of these suggestions would be great if you're just picking your nose in the privacy of your own living room.  But when the physicality itself is the problem?  I could try the perfume suggestion, but one of my classmates has chemical sensitivities.  Going barefoot could be a safety hazard.  I'm not going to start chanting "that was then this is now" in front of everyone.  That's goofy.  My goal is to be able to make it through practice _without_ stepping out for a break when this hits; I'll probably have to work up to that, but that's okay.  I'm just not sure how to get there from here.

I would love some suggestions.  I've been at work this morning and so it's taken me 4 hours to type this; I'm not sure when I'll be able to respond today.  That, and I'm road-tripping to concert tonight of my favorite artist of all time.  It's my birthday present to myself, and I'm going to have a magical evening if it kills me!!  :tantrum:

I'd really appreciate any help you can offer.  Thanks in advance.


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## morph4me (Apr 29, 2009)

When you take your break, concentrate on your breathing, don't try to control it, just concentrate on it. When you're ready, inhale to a coutn of 10, hold for 10, and exhale for 10. It's hard to think about 2 things at once and if you're thinking about your breathing, you won't be thinking about anything else, and you should be able to relax. The next think is far more important. Cut yourself some slack, you probably wouldn't be upset if someone else was having a tough time, give yourself the same consideration.


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## teekin (Apr 30, 2009)

Flea, Happy Birthday to You! Who are you going to see? This advice may sound rather dry but it is the only thing I have ever found that has worked every time I had to push through something that had a deep hold on me. Figure out what exactly the issue is, what is the underlying fear. Once you identify that fear and Name it decide what would have to happen to remove that fear forever. What is the first step in that direction? You know if you take that first step the next one will be easier. 
 Even if you falter and need to take a step back you can still see the path, you are still walking towards erasing that fear. I didn't get any of my fears solved alone, I asked for help from lots of people. The ones I found I could trust, who got to know me the best, helped me the most. It's not easy to trust anyone is it? But at some point I think you'll need to. Just be wise about who it is, OK?
lori


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