# Taekwondo by another name



## NPTKD (Aug 11, 2009)

I was just wondering how many different styles ( Poomsae, Kata, hyungs,forms etc.) are used and still called TKD? I have noticed alot of karate people in these forms. And if you teach different forms what country are they from? And do your system have an Oragnization that heads it up ether locally, nationally or out of the country.


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## d1jinx (Aug 11, 2009)

hello.  
My name is Ronald McDowell.  
I ate a doublecheeseburger once when i was a child.  I loved it so much I made my own doublecheeseburgers and ate them until I became a doublecheeseburger Master :mst:.  I now own McDowels.  Home of the Golden Arches (not Arcs... thats copyright infringment)  and sell double burgers with cheese.  Why pay into the corporate "leeches" for the same thing I can give you.  The money goes into my pocket and your all the more better because I sprinkle a little salt on my burgers and they don't.  So don't pay into Corporate Leeches and instead pay me, the little business man, so I can give you something, just as good, but corporate free!  
Because my way is the only way!

Thank you.  
sincerely,

Ronald McDowell
:2xBird2:


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## d1jinx (Aug 11, 2009)

OMG.....

I'm Sorry.  this is way too funny and I couldn't help myself.  But You NPTKD know what I am saying.


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## Jphtkd (Aug 11, 2009)

Just let your soul glow


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## NPTKD (Aug 11, 2009)

:ultracool


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## NPTKD (Aug 11, 2009)

_Its all good!_


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## Miles (Aug 11, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> I was just wondering how many different styles ( Poomsae, Kata, hyungs,forms etc.) are used and still called TKD? I have noticed alot of karate people in these forms. And if you teach different forms what country are they from? And do your system have an Oragnization that heads it up ether locally, nationally or out of the country.


 
In Korea, the term "Taekwondo" refers to a fairly standardized art (technique/terminology/testing are universal there).  In other countries, including the USA,it is more of an umbrella term which encompasses Koreanized karate-do at various stages of evolution.

I am a "true believer" in the Kukkiwon.  I STAUNCHLY support their efforts to train instructors, provide training materials, and certification of those who are worthy of same.  I am happy to assist those who have not had the benefit of getting their KKW certification.  

But, the world is bigger than South Korea and I think it does a disservice to Taekwondo and martial artists in general to state that someone who is not studying Taekwondo as practiced in Korea is not doing Taekwondo (or Tae Kwon Do, or Tae Kwon-Do, or Taekwon-Do).  The founders of the Kwans came together to form the Kukkiwon in order to bring people together to train in a wonderful martial art.   A true Taekwondoin should seek to build harmony, not create disharmony, IMHO.


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## ATC (Aug 11, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


> Just let your soul glow


Ha ha ha...I was thinking the same thing. For those that may be lost with this and what d1jinks stated, all I have to say is "Coming to America"

Ha ha ha...funny you two.


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## NPTKD (Aug 11, 2009)

NIce to here


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## Jphtkd (Aug 11, 2009)

My Magic Eight Ball says this thread will be locked in less than 3 pages


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## d1jinx (Aug 11, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


> My Magic Eight Ball says this thread will be locked in less than 3 pages


 
But why?  we are having so much fun.... and I have read much worse in other threads that are still opened.  

It's all in fun and it passes the work day so quickly.  Besides the ones who would be offended have yet to come and play.....

*Miles:*

I in no way believe that "there can be only one".  I respect all and any style or type of TKD or any other MA.  Believe it or not... we are all related.  We are all bettering ourselves and others through physical and mental training.  No piece of paper can do that.  Only true training and devotion.  

But to say that I am a fool to follow KKW ways and I send my money to Leeches for a worthless piece of paper opened the door.  To say that anyone with ROOTS is a fool... opened the door.  To each his own.  


I have never once Said that KKW TKD is the only TKD.  Those words came out of the mouths of those who ARE NOT KKW CERTIFIED.  I said it before, most KKW bashers _ARE_ KKW bashers because they were denied or never given the opportunity.  

Heres an example:
I HATE COUNTRY CLUBS...... because they wont let me in.   No matter how long I played golf, I'm not part of thier club and if I join, they won't recognize the past 20 years I have been golfing.  They will only give me a membership stating.... Golf MEMBER: 1 YR.  I want it to say 20 Yrs...  I dont like that so I wont join.  I see no benefit....  You are all fools for being in a country club!!!!!!​Sounds ridiculous right?  Don't hate the members.....


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## d1jinx (Aug 11, 2009)

Heres a Really Good example of what we are now calling a TKD School...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnV0dp-Igyw&feature=related

He added his own "salt" and came up with a "NEW STYLE"


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## Jphtkd (Aug 11, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> Heres a Really Good example of what we are now calling a TKD School...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnV0dp-Igyw&feature=related
> 
> He added his own "salt" and came up with a "NEW STYLE"



Sweat pants: $10

Awesome flags with gold tassles: $20

Watching two grown men slap fight: Priceless


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## terryl965 (Aug 11, 2009)

Well Tae Kwon Do has become general as Karate was in the eighties, everybody does it but the fact is only a few really knows it.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Remember the thoughts and views are the sole responsilbility of the owner of the said context. Buyer beware, Black Belt in a box is a complete system with a belt and everything.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 11, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> I was just wondering how many different styles ( Poomsae, Kata, hyungs,forms etc.) are used and still called TKD? I have noticed alot of karate people in these forms. And if you teach different forms what country are they from? And do your system have an Oragnization that heads it up ether locally, nationally or out of the country.


Good question.  So far as I have seen, the most common forms taught under the auspices of taekwondo are Chang Hon, Palgwe, Pinan, Songham, and Taegeuk.  With regards to Palgwe and Pinan, they are usually taught in addition to either Chang Hon or Taegeuk.

Chang Hon, Palgwe and Taegeuk are all from Korea.  Pinans are from Okinawa, and Songham was developed by the American Taekwondo Association who's GM was Korean, so I am not sure how to categorize that.

There are probably other forms, but these are the biggies, with Songham being a biggie only by virtue of the size of the ATA; so far as I know, nobody outside of the organization teaches them.  There seem to be plenty of independents who teach the others but are not part of the organization that is normally associated with the forms.

Daniel


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## TKD_Father (Aug 11, 2009)

Nice list. I've seen these mentioned;

Chang Hon
ITF (Same as Chang Hon with Sine Wave)
Taeguek
Palgwe (What's different then Taeguek?)
Song Am
Pyung Ahn
 Jhoon Rhee
Kicho Hyung (Not sure of the name)

Unfamiliar with Pinan, rushing off to google.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 11, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> Nice list. I've seen these mentioned;
> 
> Chang Hon
> ITF (Same as Chang Hon with Sine Wave)
> ...


I had forgotten about Jhoon Rhee.  Which is really weird, given that Jhoon Rhee was my first experience in Taekwondo and is a local legend in my area.  

Pyung Ahn is the same as Pinans if memory serves; Pyung Ahn being Korean.  I have never heard of Kicho Hyung.

Daniel


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## TKD_Father (Aug 11, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Pyung Ahn is the same as Pinans if memory serves; Pyung Ahn being Korean.  I have never heard of Kicho Hyung.
> 
> Daniel



I'm not sure of the overall name, but the forms are;

Kicho Hyung Il Bu
Kicho Hyung Ee Bu
Kicho Hyung Sam
Chul Gi
Bassai

My son did Kicho Hyung Il Bu as a white belt.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> I'm not sure of the overall name, but the forms are;
> 
> Kicho Hyung Il Bu
> Kicho Hyung Ee Bu
> ...



the kicho forms are most often taught in Tang So Do schools.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 11, 2009)

TKD_Father said:


> I'm not sure of the overall name, but the forms are;
> 
> Kicho Hyung Il Bu
> Kicho Hyung Ee Bu
> ...


Bassai?  As in Bassai Dai?  

Daniel


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## DMcHenry (Aug 11, 2009)

Daniel, as long as you are using Korean, you might want to go ahead and use the Korean name for the Pinan Katas = Pyung-ahn hyungs.  

I have done those form sets in several TKD dojangs I've attended along with some of the others (Palgwe, Taegeuk, and Chang-hon).


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> I said it before, most KKW bashers _ARE_ KKW bashers because they were denied or never given the opportunity.



or the people that think it is stupid, pointless, and of no value.

thats me. I dont like the wtf style of fighting, so i dont need it to fight in those events.

My lineage predates the KKW, so i dont need it for that.

Since I dont do WTF sport sparring, or ref it, I dont need it for that.

if i need to go to another school on a trip or if i move, well, i can still move well enough to prove i am what i say i am, so i dont need it for that.

And in my experience, the KKW never denies anyone......as long as the check clears.


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## DMcHenry (Aug 11, 2009)

Kicho (keecho) are "Basic" forms found in TSD & TKD as well as many Japanses arts.

Chul-gi = Naihanchi = Nafanchin = Tekki, performed in TSD & TKD
yup, Bassai/Passai is the same (similar) to Bassai Dai.

These form sets were used in the Japanese arts and old TKD, still used in TSD.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2009)

we use Chul-gi and Bassai


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 11, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> I have never once Said that KKW TKD is the only TKD. Those words came out of the mouths of those who ARE NOT KKW CERTIFIED. I said it before, most KKW bashers _ARE_ KKW bashers because they were denied or never given the opportunity.
> 
> Heres an example:
> I HATE COUNTRY CLUBS...... because they wont let me in. No matter how long I played golf, I'm not part of thier club and if I join, they won't recognize the past 20 years I have been golfing. They will only give me a membership stating.... Golf MEMBER: 1 YR. I want it to say 20 Yrs... I dont like that so I wont join. I see no benefit.... You are all fools for being in a country club!!!!!!​Sounds ridiculous right? Don't hate the members.....


Well, as a KKW certified Taekwondoin, I have to disagree with you. This may be true of some detractors, but there are others with very legitamate criticisms of the Kukkiwon, some of whom are also Kukkiwon certified.  Some question the sport direction that the Kukkiwon seems to be leaning in.

Also, given relative the ease with which one may obtain rank in the Kukkiwon, I cannot see rank denial as a primary reason for most.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Aug 11, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I had forgotten about Jhoon Rhee.  Which is really weird, given that Jhoon Rhee was my first experience in Taekwondo and is a local legend in my area.
> 
> Pyung Ahn is the same as Pinans if memory serves; Pyung Ahn being Korean.  I have never heard of Kicho Hyung.
> 
> Daniel



Although Jhoon Rhee is in my lineage, I'm not a fan at all of his creations.

The Kicho forms are just the Taikyoku forms from karate imported with a few technique changes.  There is some variation in them based on which TSD group one trains with.

The Pyung Ahn forms actually stem from the Heian Shotokan forms which in turn were modified versions of the Pinan kata.  The technique and stance changes the Japanese made seem minor but IMO they actually change the bunkai to a great degree, so much so that I think it's better to say Pyung Ahn rather than Pinan for clarity's sake when discussing bunkai or technique evaluations.


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## IcemanSK (Aug 11, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Bassai? As in Bassai Dai?
> 
> Daniel


 
Yes, Bassai as in Bassai Dai. I don't know of any TKD schools that do Bassai Sho, but I'll bet they are out there. Often TKD schools will Bassai Dai Pal Sek....a Korean word.


Yun Be is another TSD forms that is still apart of some TKD programs. I believe it's also used in Karate schools as well. I can't recall it's other name.


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## dancingalone (Aug 11, 2009)

IcemanSK said:


> Yes, Bassai as in Bassai Dai. I don't know of any TKD schools that do Bassai Sho, but I'll bet they are out there. Often TKD schools will Bassai Dai Pal Sek....a Korean word.
> 
> 
> Yun Be is another TSD forms that is still apart of some TKD programs. I believe it's also used in Karate schools as well. I can't recall it's other name.



Bassai Sho is usually taught for shodans advancing to nidan in Shotokan, so it's not surprising that it is not widely taught in TKD schools, given the relative junior karate rank of the Korean students that went on to create TKD.  (Not picking a fight here, so anyone reading please don't take it as one - just stating the facts as I understand it.)  Bassai Dai is a brown belt form, so more Koreans would have been exposed to it and mastered it sufficiently to be comfortable teaching it.  I think the last time we discussed this on MT, Mr. McClain from the Chayon-ryu system said his instructor, Mr. Kim Soo, a Korean who studied at the Chang Moo Kwan, teaches Bassai Sho.

Yun Be = Shotokan Empi = Okinawan Wanshu
more or less.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> bassai sho is usually taught for shodans advancing to nidan in shotokan, so it's not surprising that it is not widely taught in tkd schools, given the relative junior karate rank of the korean students that went on to create tkd.  (not picking a fight here, so anyone reading please don't take it as one - just stating the facts as i understand it.)  bassai dai is a brown belt form, so more koreans would have been exposed to it and mastered it sufficiently to be comfortable teaching it.



+1


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Aug 11, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, as a KKW certified Taekwondoin, I have to disagree with you. This may be true of some detractors, but there are others with very legitamate criticisms of the Kukkiwon, some of whom are also Kukkiwon certified. Some question the sport direction that the Kukkiwon seems to be leaning in.
> 
> Also, given relative the ease with which one may obtain rank in the Kukkiwon, I cannot see rank denial as a primary reason for most.
> 
> Daniel


 
Very nice post Daniel!  Thank You.
As you know, (from other forums we are on) I have NO problem with any other org. if that is what someone wants. I do have an issue with people thinking or saying their Org. is the ONLY REAL way to go.
I have had chances to have a KKW Certificate, I choose not to. I am more of a Chang Hon style, although I do (& my students) attend tournaments given by WTF members, and yes, we go home with trophies.
I have a friend in California who is the first or 1 of the first KKW non-Korean 8th Degree Black Belts. I have a good deal of respect for him, we have known each other for 25 years, used to compete together.
I dont understand the personal attacks I received on the other thread, I thought I gave everyone mutual respect.
For those of you that just don't understand why I don't care to have a KKW Certificate.....read your own posts:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79363

I first started TKD in the 1970s, we learned the Patterns under G.Master Duk Sung Son, founder of the World TKD Association.
Pyung Ahn, Kuk Mu, Tae Guk (spelled)
My Instructor later changed to a different association, we then learned the Chang Hon system.
After I reached 1st Degree, I moved and my new Instructor was WTF, I learned Palgwe Patterns to 2nd Degree Black Belt.... well, He moved to Colorado.... I later went back to the Chang Hon Patterns.
I teach the Chang Hon Patterns, system today.

Insults not needed.
Respectfully,
-Kevin


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## d1jinx (Aug 11, 2009)

TaeKwonDoKevin said:


> ... I do have an issue with people thinking or saying their Org. is the ONLY REAL way to go.
> I have had chances to have a KKW Certificate,...


 
You and Others Keep saying that... can you show me where that was said because I didnt read that part.  Come to think of it, I haven't read that in any of the posts I have participated....


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## d1jinx (Aug 11, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Also, given relative the ease with which one may obtain rank in the Kukkiwon, I cannot see rank denial as a primary reason for most.
> 
> Daniel


 
If a 5th Dan Homemade TKD student walks into Kukkiwon and asks for a 5th Dan KKW, He wont be denied a 1st Dan, maybe even 2nd Dan.... He Will be denied a 5th Dan.  That was my point.  Unless you were cert'd by another LARGE org that THEY (KKW) recognizes, you will be denied rank an equal rank.  There Are *SOME* who feel that because they cannot be recognized for the rank they are SAY SCREW KKW.


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Aug 11, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> You and Others Keep saying that... can you show me where that was said because I didnt read that part. Come to think of it, I haven't read that in any of the posts I have participated....


 
Without going through and listing ALL, here is just one of the postings that IMPLIES if you are NOT KKW Certified, then you are not TKD:



			
				NPTKD said:
			
		

> Well Here it is... Your not going to like it. First, I train my self but I also continue my education in the Martial arts. I just don't say " That is the way I was trained". I like to stay currnet and up to date. I mean look at the world around , every profession must keep learning to stay viable. I found in order to become a international referee I needed to be KKW. In order to compete internationally I needed to be KKW. In order to continue to improve my skills in the art of the people that you are dismissing in your comments I needed a KKW. Your wrong in not at least offering KKW to your students, you were not given the right to make that decision for them.


 
The ITF, ATA, GTF and others DO have International Events, now IF the ONLY way to be in a TaeKwonDo International Event is to be KKW Certified, that Very Well IMPIES ALL other Orgs. and Independants are NOT TaeKwonDo.

With Respect,
-Kevin


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Aug 11, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> If a 5th Dan Homemade TKD student walks into Kukkiwon and asks for a 5th Dan KKW, He wont be denied a 1st Dan, maybe even 2nd Dan.... He Will be denied a 5th Dan. That was my point. Unless you were cert'd by another LARGE org that THEY (KKW) recognizes, you will be denied rank an equal rank. There Are *SOME* who feel that because they cannot be recognized for the rank they are SAY SCREW KKW.


 
I see your point, AND I agree with you.
Anyone that high of Rank, should NOT be surprised if asked or told they will be dropped in Rank when switching to an Association with different Patterns and kick Chambers. But, you will usually find that in reverse also, go from a WTF KKW to an ITF and 1 probably will not keep their 5th Dan Rank either.
with Respect,
-Kevin


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## dancingalone (Aug 11, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> You and Others Keep saying that... can you show me where that was said because I didnt read that part.  Come to think of it, I haven't read that in any of the posts I have participated....



But you have said several times that you think people who might criticize aspects of the KKW are people who lack the opportunity to hold KKW rank themselves.  That's certainly one of the reasons I've responded with my points.  You do realize that's rather insulting, don't you?  A TKDist can certainly hold an opinion positive or negative about TKD orgs without secretly harboring some certificate envy.


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## garrisons2 (Aug 11, 2009)

OMFG  they are awful.   How can such a person wear a BB with any honor?


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## NPTKD (Aug 11, 2009)

TaeKwonDoKevin said:


> Without going through and listing ALL, here is just one of the postings that IMPLIES if you are NOT KKW Certified, then you are not TKD:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 My intention was not to take this thread to where the other went. I am sincere about this topic. I was just wondering.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 11, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> If a 5th Dan Homemade TKD student walks into Kukkiwon and asks for a 5th Dan KKW, He wont be denied a 1st Dan, maybe even 2nd Dan.... He Will be denied a 5th Dan. That was my point.
> 
> Unless you were cert'd by another LARGE org that THEY (KKW) recognizes, you will be denied rank an equal rank. There Are *SOME* who feel that because they cannot be recognized for the rank they are SAY SCREW KKW.


In fact, very few of the detractors of the Kukkiwon have ever walked into the building, let alone ask for rank.  

Also, unless I am mistaken, and KKW 4th dan and higher can do the paperwork to promote a student up to and including the rank one beneath their own through fifth dan, thus walking into the Kukkiwon or even Korea is not a necessity unless you are testing for sixth dan or higher.  

Very few KKW detractors are folks who were denied a 6th dan or higher.  Most simply have issues with the curriculum.

As far as orgs recognized by the KKW, so far as I know, only affiliates qualify (such as USAT).  I do not believe that the Kukkiwon honors rank of any large organization outside of itself.

Anyway, this really not the thrust of the thread, and as I hold rank with the Kukkiwon and have no major complaints, I take no offense at what you said.  I just felt that it is an inaccurate generalization.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 11, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> My intention was not to take this thread to where the other went. I am sincere about this topic. I was just wondering.


Indeed!  

There are plenty of existing thread on the merits and flaws of the Kukkiwon.  Discussion about rank denial and bitterness of KKW critics would fit well in a number of them.

Given that Taekwondo served as an umbrella term for the original Kwans, which differed from one another in their curriculum but still shared some common threads, I would think that there is a fair amount of latitude in what can be considered Taekwondo.  So long as those essentials are there, the 31 different flavors are all still ice cream.

Daniel


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2009)

Jhoon Rhee should not be listed seperatly from Chong Hon, since thats what he uses.....


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2009)

tho why anyone that is already a 5th would want to switch orgs is beyond me...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 11, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Jhoon Rhee should not be listed seperatly from Chong Hon, since thats what he uses.....


Still?  For some reason, I thought that he had developed his own, though I may be wrong.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Aug 11, 2009)

I understand schools that currently acknowledge Mr. Rhee as their grandmaster teach his new forms to gup students.  At dan levels, they learn the General Choi forms.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2009)

i would love to see those forms...


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## dancingalone (Aug 11, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> i would love to see those forms...



You asked for it.  

I myself think Mr. Rhee went off the deep end with his martial ballet tangent.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2eTBxZzvF4&feature=related


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2009)

well, it isnt a bad form, sort of long, but, bot it is a brown belt level form....


i got nothing


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## dancingalone (Aug 11, 2009)

It's the music that grates on my nerves the most, I suppose.  They actually have these CDs of the same music Mr. Rhee selected for use each and every time they practice the form.


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## NPTKD (Aug 12, 2009)

I can probably guess, but what is everyone opion on open form or creatice?
I am not a big fan, I mean some of it is alright. Maybe it is because i'm too old do do all that flipping and jumping!


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## NPTKD (Aug 12, 2009)

Hey, I gotta question, it goes back to the thread "ebay". I found a picture of the school down the road from me off of the instructors myspace page and guess what I found! Yes, a picture of a student at promotion holding the very same fake WTF certificate! I don't want to bring all this up agian but, This person who runs this school is why I have the opion that I posted on the other threat! They really piss me off. A really small school, but a big loud mouth. My question is, what do you think I should do? Be honest, really I would like to know....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 12, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> I can probably guess, but what is everyone opion on open form or creatice?
> I am not a big fan, I mean some of it is alright. Maybe it is because i'm too old do do all that flipping and jumping!


Open creative form can be good or bad.  If it is done as a martial ballet, and that is known, then I am applying a different set of standards to it.  Now, it is a question of asthetics and artistic taste, not so much martial application.  At that point, I judge it as art.  And it may fail on that level for me, as I am much more objective about art than most people.

Regarding flipping and jumping, If the form is intended as martial gymnastics, then I will judge it by a different set of standards again, mainly artistic taste, difficulty level, and execution.

If the person can work flips and jumps in as flourishes and keep the form martially applicable, then I think that that is an impressive feat and applaud it.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Aug 12, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> hello.
> My name is Ronald McDowell.
> I ate a doublecheeseburger once when i was a child. I loved it so much I made my own doublecheeseburgers and ate them until I became a doublecheeseburger Master :mst:. I now own McDowels. Home of the Golden Arches (not Arcs... thats copyright infringment)


 
Actually it is the other way around.  Golden Arches is copyright...but I do appreciate the Coming to America reference.


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## miguksaram (Aug 12, 2009)

Miles said:


> In Korea, the term "Taekwondo" refers to a fairly standardized art (technique/terminology/testing are universal there). In other countries, including the USA,it is more of an umbrella term which encompasses Koreanized karate-do at various stages of evolution.
> 
> I am a "true believer" in the Kukkiwon. I STAUNCHLY support their efforts to train instructors, provide training materials, and certification of those who are worthy of same. I am happy to assist those who have not had the benefit of getting their KKW certification.
> 
> But, the world is bigger than South Korea and I think it does a disservice to Taekwondo and martial artists in general to state that someone who is not studying Taekwondo as practiced in Korea is not doing Taekwondo (or Tae Kwon Do, or Tae Kwon-Do, or Taekwon-Do). The founders of the Kwans came together to form the Kukkiwon in order to bring people together to train in a wonderful martial art. A true Taekwondoin should seek to build harmony, not create disharmony, IMHO.


 
Nicely put.  TKD has become a generic term like karate.  There are so many subsets and versions.  It is too the point now that people do need to specify which type of TKD just so others get an idea of what they do.  For example I study karate.  However that could mean shotokan, shito-ryu, shorei-ryu, etc.  So I have to be more specific.

I am with Miles that I support the KKW TKD (yeah no big secret there).  That doesn't mean I don't appreciate what the other TKD's have to offer.


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## miguksaram (Aug 12, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> And in my experience, the KKW never denies anyone......as long as the check clears.


 
When discussing only YOUR experience I guess this would hold true.  However, they have denied people and it has already been proven on this site by those who said they did not receive the rank they applied for.  Plus I have seen people testing at the KKW and failing.  

I think the problem some people have is when you bash something that you don't even use or have no role in is pretty much ignorant.  If you don't use their teaching methods or if you don't compete in their events then fine...you have no use the KKW.  That doesn't mean KKW is the anti-christ of TKD.  For those of us who do utilize their methods or participate in their events or like to feel a connection to the originating culture, then KKW seems to fit.

You system predates KKW...true.  KKW is just a building.  But, keep in mind that the foundation of the style of TKD that is taught in that building is the same if not predating that TKD which you practice.


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## miguksaram (Aug 12, 2009)

TaeKwonDoKevin said:


> Without going through and listing ALL, here is just one of the postings that IMPLIES if you are NOT KKW Certified, then you are not TKD:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I didn't know ATA had international events.  I thought they were just a national based organization.  

Anyway, you make a HUGE leap here.  You are missing the part where it is a WTF International Taekwondo Event that you have to be KKW certified to attend.  This doesn't mean if you are ITF you are not practicing TKD.  That is a conclusion you are drawing on your own.  This is just saying that if you wish to participate in a WTF event of this caliber you need to be certified as part of the KKW.

ATA does not allow any non-ATA people into their events.  Does this mean ONLY ATA people practice TKD and everyone else doesn't?


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## miguksaram (Aug 12, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> You asked for it.
> 
> I myself think Mr. Rhee went off the deep end with his martial ballet tangent.
> 
> ...


 
This is just a curious question so please do not read more into it.  Are the forward stances in Rhee's system supposed to be narrow?


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## miguksaram (Aug 12, 2009)

garrisons2 said:


> OMFG they are awful. How can such a person wear a BB with any honor?


What the heck are you talking about and where in IL are you from?


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## miguksaram (Aug 12, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> I can probably guess, but what is everyone opion on open form or creatice?
> I am not a big fan, I mean some of it is alright. Maybe it is because i'm too old do do all that flipping and jumping!


Keep in mind that there is creative and then there is the "extreme".  What seperates the two are the flips and tricks.  Personally I like both.  The athleticism that is displayed by those who do it is just awesome to watch.  Now my biggest pet peeve with them is when they do it with sloppy basics.  I have judged and watched countless people on the circuit who had great tricking ability, but had piss poor techniques martial art wise.  To really impress me I need to see both.


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## dancingalone (Aug 12, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> This is just a curious question so please do not read more into it.  Are the forward stances in Rhee's system supposed to be narrow?



I don't know.  When I studied his system in Texas, the forward stance was roughly shoulders width apart as is common in many karate systems.  His martial ballet innovations came after Mr. Rhee moved to the DC area, and I have no real indepth knowledge of any changes he might have made then.  

If you want my best guess, I would say the people in the video probably just don't have good stance work.  It is easier to perform that kneeling motion they make when you're in a shallow stance, so maybe that's the reason.


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## dancingalone (Aug 12, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> I can probably guess, but what is everyone opion on open form or creatice?
> I am not a big fan, I mean some of it is alright. Maybe it is because i'm too old do do all that flipping and jumping!



You guessed right in my case.  My dojo works kata applications on a deeper level than most schools I've visited.  The classical forms from Okinawa contain all your basic blocks, movements, and attacks.... and even more if you've been given the tools to understand where throws and locks are 'hidden'.  With that perspective, I don't generally like the newer forms as a result, and I'm afraid I have no use for competition type forms.  Or martial ballet for that matter, my connections to Mr. Rhee notwithstanding.


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## dancingalone (Aug 12, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> I didn't know ATA had international events.  I thought they were just a national based organization.



They also have branches in South Korea believe it or not.  I saw some promotional video once of HU Lee, the former head of the ATA now deceased, on a return trip to South Korea to promote his style.  He was treated with rock star level respect and acclaim.

They also have branches somewhere in Europe and I believe Australia and Mexico.  They're not as widespread internationally as the KKW, but no doubt they're more than an American phenomenon now.


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## miguksaram (Aug 12, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> They also have branches in South Korea believe it or not. I saw some promotional video once of HU Lee, the former head of the ATA now deceased, on a return trip to South Korea to promote his style. He was treated with rock star level respect and acclaim.
> 
> They also have branches somewhere in Europe and I believe Australia and Mexico. They're not as widespread internationally as the KKW, but no doubt they're more than an American phenomenon now.


 
Cool...well then I learned something today...I'm now going home to weep knowing that they are spreading all over. haha.ha.ha.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 12, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> You asked for it.
> 
> I myself think Mr. Rhee went off the deep end with his martial ballet tangent.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting choice of name / music. I wonder:
A. Do they yteach the historical connection? 
B. Are other forms named after other world events?


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## dancingalone (Aug 12, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> Interesting choice of name / music. I wonder:
> A. Do they yteach the historical connection?
> B. Are other forms named after other world events?



A.  Yes.  As I understand it, Mr. Rhee is a strong American patriot and also a Christian.  His forms represent his ideals.

B.  They have names like Chosang or "ancestor" performed to "God Bless America" or Jayoo "Freedom" performed to "Stars and Stripes Forever".  There's around six of these martial ballets I believe.


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## garrisons2 (Aug 12, 2009)

Im referring to the video at the beginning of this thread, apparently you missed it....sir

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnV0dp-Igyw&feature=related


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## miguksaram (Aug 12, 2009)

garrisons2 said:


> Im referring to the video at the beginning of this thread, apparently you missed it....sir
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnV0dp-Igyw&feature=related


 
No...I didn't miss it, but your post didn't have any reference point so wasn't sure what you were referring to.


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Aug 12, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> I didn't know ATA had international events. I thought they were just a national based organization.
> 
> Anyway, you make a HUGE leap here. You are missing the part where it is a WTF International Taekwondo Event that you have to be KKW certified to attend. This doesn't mean if you are ITF you are not practicing TKD. That is a conclusion you are drawing on your own. This is just saying that if you wish to participate in a WTF event of this caliber you need to be certified as part of the KKW.
> 
> ATA does not allow any non-ATA people into their events. Does this mean ONLY ATA people practice TKD and everyone else doesn't?


 
First - The ATA has the World Traditional TaeKwonDo Association, YES, they are International. Teaching their Song Ahm Worldwide.

YES, I agree with you 100%, BUT, the Post stated "I need KKW Certificate for International...." WTF was NOT mentioned in the post. This tells me (and obviously others) that it was IMPLIED (maybe not meant to be) that I need a KKW Certificate to be involved with an INTERNATIONAL Event. That simply is NOT True. My point has been, a KKW Certificate is Fine, but is Only good in the KKW & WTF. Just like MOST other Orgs. It was even mentioned or IMPLIED that I am cheating my students for NOT getting them KKW Certificates.

I'm not sure why the last ATA question is asked. Of course not. We ALL practice TaeKwonDo. That has been my point.

For the last time.......I have NOTHING against the KKW, WTF, ATA, ITF, ITA or any other Org (that is legit.) I have discussed this SAME issue with Chang Hon people and I get attacked. 
I'm not ITF or WTF, I have good friends in BOTH orgs. I just don't see the reason to spend the $$$$ for a certificate that won't increase my knowledge a bit. It's about the KNOWLEDGE, people, NOT the CERTIFICATE.

One last thing for you all that bash the ATA. OK, I agree they have their issues, but many orgs. do. I recommend you go watch their NATIONAL/WORLD Tournament in Littlerock, Arkansas. Your neg. thoughts will be re-enforced, but I'm sure you just might be surprised of some of the Quality that is in the ATA. Some of the best techs. that I know, are/were in the ATA, ......and some of the worst.

I speak only for myself.....not others, PLEASE, don't group us all non-WTF people together.

Respectfully,
-Kevin


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 12, 2009)

TaeKwonDoKevin said:


> I'm not ITF or WTF, I have good friends in BOTH orgs. I just don't see the reason to spend the $$$$ for a certificate that won't increase my knowledge a bit. It's about the KNOWLEDGE, people, NOT the CERTIFICATE.
> 
> Respectfully,
> -Kevin


 

I think your opinion is based upon the fact that you aproach the certificate issue from the opposite direction of those who value the certificate.  Reasoneable payment for a certificate supports the organization which made the knowledge you value available to your instructors who in turn pass it along to you and believe in  supporting the organization for that same reason.  

So, you are correct. The certificate does not increase your knowledge. However the ability to tap resources that enhance your knowledge was made available by the organization issuing the certificate.


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Aug 12, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> I think your opinion is based upon the fact that you aproach the certificate issue from the opposite direction of those who value the certificate. Reasoneable payment for a certificate supports the organization which made the knowledge you value available to your instructors who in turn pass it along to you and believe in supporting the organization for that same reason.
> 
> So, you are correct. The certificate does not increase your knowledge. However the ability to tap resources that enhance your knowledge was made available by the organization issuing the certificate.


 
Mr. Weiss, good to hear from you Sir. 
You are mostly CORRECT. BUT, I do value the certificates that I do have, that's my whole point, I feel I don't need to join ANOTHER org. JUST for the Certificate. I feel & believe as long as the org. that I am in is meeting my needs, and my students, AND we do well in open tournaments, then I should give MY org. the credit & support. Just as the KKW/WTF, ITF, and others do to their orgs.
Mutual respect all the way around.
Respectfully,
-Kevin


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Aug 12, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> Hey, I gotta question, it goes back to the thread "ebay". I found a picture of the school down the road from me off of the instructors myspace page and guess what I found! Yes, a picture of a student at promotion holding the very same fake WTF certificate! I don't want to bring all this up agian but, This person who runs this school is why I have the opion that I posted on the other threat! They really piss me off. A really small school, but a big loud mouth. My question is, what do you think I should do? Be honest, really I would like to know....


 
IMHO, Sir, there are many ways to handle this.
Don't spend too much of your valuable time on someone who really isn't a competitor.
Does he seem to teach legit. TKD, but just gives out bogus Certificates?
If the guy is a joker all the way around, and is giving Martial Arts a bad name. Try this.
Order one of those Ebay Certificates, get it as High Rank as you can. Frame it and place it on your office wall near (but lower) to your REAL certificate, then place a sign, do you know the difference....blah, blah, blah.
This will educate the public, and other students.
Don't let it eat you up.....to much energy the wrong direction can look bad on you.
In time, the public will learn he is of low/no quality and he will be gone. Or have students that only want a belt and not want to really train.
I have seen these types come and go, they never last. It is shameful, but we are only accountable for ourselves.
Remember the Tenets.
Respectfully,
-Kevin


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## miguksaram (Aug 13, 2009)

TaeKwonDoKevin said:


> First - The ATA has the World Traditional TaeKwonDo Association, YES, they are International. Teaching their Song Ahm Worldwide.


 
Cool.  As I stated before, I did not know that. 



> YES, I agree with you 100%, BUT, the Post stated "I need KKW Certificate for International...." WTF was NOT mentioned in the post. This tells me (and obviously others) that it was IMPLIED (maybe not meant to be) that I need a KKW Certificate to be involved with an INTERNATIONAL Event.


 
What seems to be happening in these threads are people are quickly jumping to any conclusion instead of asking more questions.  Not just this particular incident, but many others I have seen on different threads.  Perhaps asking the poster to elaborate more would have helped.  I knew what he meant simply by knowing a bit about his background. 



> My point has been, a KKW Certificate is Fine, but is Only good in the KKW & WTF. Just like MOST other Orgs.


 
I agree.  If you are pursuing KKW or WTF items, then the cert would be needed.  However, if you are not then, you don't personally need it.



> It was even mentioned or IMPLIED that I am cheating my students for NOT getting them KKW Certificates.


 
Well I would say if you are teaching KKW TKD and eventually your students will be doing so then I would think you would want them to be certified through the KKW.  If you are advertising that you teach KKW-TKD then you should be certified under them.  If you are teaching your own brand of TKD mixed with whatever else and you don't plan on pursuing KKW curriculum, then I don't see why you would need to offer them certs through KKW.



> I'm not sure why the last ATA question is asked. Of course not. We ALL practice TaeKwonDo. That has been my point.


 
I was drawing a comparison that ATA will not allow any "outsiders" in their events unless you are certified with them, just like WTF would not allow "outsiders" into specifice events unless you are certified through KKW.  Since there was a misunderstanding about WTF not being mentioned in the original post that sprouted this whole thing...it is a moot point.



> I just don't see the reason to spend the $$$$ for a certificate that won't increase my knowledge a bit. It's about the KNOWLEDGE, people, NOT the CERTIFICATE.


 
I agree.  It is about the knowledge.  I can learn how to be a plubmer simply by going to the book stores reading about it and working on my toilet at home.  So why do I need to have a certificate saying that I'm a plumber?  The cert, simply shows that you adhered to a specific curriculum and passed the test.  That is what the cert does.  It may also allow you to pursue other knowledge based classes within that org.  If those classes don't interest you, then fine.  



> One last thing for you all that bash the ATA. OK, I agree they have their issues, but many orgs. do. I recommend you go watch their NATIONAL/WORLD Tournament in Littlerock, Arkansas. Your neg. thoughts will be re-enforced, but I'm sure you just might be surprised of some of the Quality that is in the ATA. Some of the best techs. that I know, are/were in the ATA, ......and some of the worst.


 
Taylor Nicholas, who won their world championship a couple of years ago, trained with our instructors.  Like any other org you will have great athletes and you will have piss poor athletes.  I personally don't look at 100 great athletes from 100 different schools and say wow ATA/KKW/ITF/ITA...know their crap!  Even a blind squirel will eventually find a nut.    I prefer to look at several students from an individual school and draw a conclusion on the individual school not the org.



> I speak only for myself.....not others, PLEASE, don't group us all non-WTF people together.


As I hope you don't lump all KKW/WTF people together.


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## Jimi (Aug 13, 2009)

I am a 3rd Dan (San Dan) in TKD. Started training in the Okinawa/Korea Karate assocition in 1980 with Sensei Randy Wozin a Black Belt in both Okinawan & Korean Arts.

I have trained using Hyungs, Pinans, Kibons, Pawlges, TaeGueks, etc... Even Bassi Dai & Bassi Sho, Nahunchi (sp?) the list goes on and on. Many aspects of these forms go hand in hand. If it is a compitent form and a compitent practitioner, I say view the form from the stand point of "Is it done well, does it look like the performer can make it work = is it functional, does it adhere to the sound priciples that uphold the art?" That is what is important to me.

I have seen forms done very well and it looked functional. I have seen even BBs walk thru forms standing the arts & form reputation to carry them and do the form no justice. 

PLEASE NOTE: I am not a TKD basher but there are a few old school 70's Karate & Tae Kwon Do Black Belt jokes that have impressed me (A blanket generalization I know, but jokes with some sound insight pointing out that some pratitioners participate at the most superficial level) that it is not only the art, the form but the spirit behind it. Meaning that some hide behind BBs, Associations, etc... to sheild themselves. The following are 2 jokes I learned from my 1st Instructor, Please try not to be offended.

1- What is the difference between Okinawan & Korean Emtyhand?
$40 a month

2- Have youy seen 5 Korean emptyhand forms?
Yes
Then you have seen them all.

Again, please understand I am not TKD bashing, but some poor practitioners and Instructors have impressed even high level Instructors of many arts, that the blanket that is TKD can be seen as Kid's karate. I did not do this to Western TKD as a whole in terms of perception, others have. But looking at some performances of so called TKD Masters and their Business practices can belittle a damn good art overall.

Tang Soo Do, Moo Duk Kwan & Tae Kwon Do ( As well as other arts) as I have learned, are great competition arts as well as self defense arts. I am sad to say some have lowered the bar and general perception of these arts. Again, not my doing (Or I would not hold BB rank in 3 different asoociations of TKD, Karate, Kenpo, Bando and Associate Intructor rank in other arts as well) but I feel the forms of a system does not identify the individual. No-one should hide behind an assoc./org etc... and say how dare you question me, I know so and so forms 1 thru 8 and BB forms XYZ.

I myself many times have visited schools, even looking for PT assistant instructor work, and had a less capable and knowledgable Instructor demand, "SHOW ME YOUR FORMS". I then ripped thru old forms and new forms and forms from outside of the TKD/Karate systems and was then asked "Would you teach those forms to my BBs?"

The forms systemitize the art, not solely identify it. The practioner is to breath life into it. I have heard from 2 of my Instructors in the past when if I ever did not perform to my fullest " YOU ARE KILLING MY ART JAMES, YOU ARE (Expletive Deleted) KILLING IT!!! FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE OR I WILL TAKE YOUR LIFE!!!" But when I gathered myself and performed the form as though I were fighting for my life (In the deadly eyes of my Instructor I was, for he was watching every move trying to kill me with dagger eyes, only being satisfied if I were to survive his gaze) then I got just as much positive and he gave me negative "YES JAMES, THAT'S IT. THAT'S WHAT I WANNA SEE, I WANNA SEE YOU BREATHING HEAVY, DROOLING SPIT AND HAVING SNOT BUBBLES COMING FROM YOUR NOSE. I WANNA SEE YOU FOAMING AT THE MOUTH!!!!" He belives that no-one just casually walks thru a life or death situation.

I was always taught that (Especially in BB division, emptyhand or weapons or testing) if you make a mistake you are dead, no second chances, no do overs, no asking sir may I begin again?

Although I understand that not every form in every system is to be done that intensely, you as a practitioner must breath life into it, make it work. jugdes should see your form and not just feel like "OK, so he/she completed the forms sequence correctly = high score" the judges should be bowled over and impressed to feel "WOW, now that looked like it would work well = high score"

I hope members understand my point & opinion. Again my light hearted jokes were not meant to bash TKD, but to (Maybe) bash those who we can all see as sleepwalking thru the art. I apologize if my opinion has offended anyones sensibilties, just expressing in a long winded fashion how I feel about forms, performance and the credibilty of Black Belts.

PEACE JIMI


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Aug 13, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Cool. As I stated before, I did not know that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Its seems we agree 100% on everything.
Thanks for the post!  ; )
Respectfully,
-Kevin


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## miguksaram (Aug 13, 2009)

TaeKwonDoKevin said:


> Its seems we agree 100% on everything.
> Thanks for the post! ; )
> Respectfully,
> -Kevin


 
It's all about the understanding....and a really good beer or scotch.


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## dancingalone (Aug 13, 2009)

TaeKwonDoKevin said:


> My point has been, a KKW Certificate is Fine, but is Only good in the KKW & WTF. Just like MOST other Orgs. It was even mentioned or IMPLIED that I am cheating my students for NOT getting them KKW Certificates.



This bears repeating.  Anyone who thinks there's been some KKW bashing going on should review the recent thread in question that was closed.  One person essentially said non-KKW certs were the equivalent of buying shoes at Walmart, which was intended to be an insult.

I myself respect the KKW for their efforts in organizing and forwarding taekwondo.  I don't agree with everything they do, but that's life.  It's only when someone tries to tell me that his mode of TKD is better than any other version that I have problems...


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## NPTKD (Aug 14, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> This bears repeating. Anyone who thinks there's been some KKW bashing going on should review the recent thread in question that was closed. One person essentially said non-KKW certs were the equivalent of buying shoes at Walmart, which was intended to be an insult.
> 
> I myself respect the KKW for their efforts in organizing and forwarding taekwondo. I don't agree with everything they do, but that's life. It's only when someone tries to tell me that his mode of TKD is better than any other version that I have problems...


  Only after the KKW certificate was said to be toliet paper! Get your fact right.
Thank you!


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## NPTKD (Aug 14, 2009)

and for that matter go thru any post that I have ever made on this site and show me where I have ever bashed or said KKw taekwondo was the only one, or the best. I have only and still will say that you as an instructor should give your students the right of choice! Tell them up front and let then know the pros and cons... Not just your opion! And when you find the post that I have bashed another art let me know.


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## NPTKD (Aug 14, 2009)

and if you do not do KKW TKD and you issue your own certificate then you don't have to say or do anything. But if you  do, then there is the problem!

The End.


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## theletch1 (Aug 15, 2009)

Ladies and gentlemen, the heat being generated in this thread has gotten a bit hotter than the "friendly discussion" level that Martial Talk prides itself on.  Everyone take a moment for a deep breath and return to the topic with cooler heads, please.

-Jeff Letchford
-MT super moderator


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