# "Interesting" thread follow up



## Dan Anderson (Jul 19, 2004)

_"My my my my my, what a mess."_  Tommy Lee Jones in The Fugitive.

Well, I go away for a weekend and the nukes go off.  Whoooeeey.  The timing of the thread lbeing locked off cut off Tim Hartman's viewpoint regarding the is there a jungle bolo or not.  He began the thread and was going to post after the weekend camp.  So let him post.

It has been contended that the initial post was a cheap shot at Bram Frank.  Well, let him speak his mind.  It was also contended he fired a cheap shot at me.  Folks, thank youfor the support but let _ me _ be offended if offense is going to be taken.  I don't take offense.  I don't think Tim was firing a shot at me, covertly or overtly.  He and I agree to disagree on the MA-80 point.  No big deal in the grand scheme of things.  I do want to see his take on the locked thread, though.



> That's not what I'm trying to say, but Bart got the idea. There are a couple of interesting topics in this thread that we could discuss.
> __________________
> Datu Tim Hartman
> World Modern Arnis Alliance
> ...



Okay, Tim.  Camp's over, time to discuss.

Yours,
Dan


----------



## Emptyglass (Jul 19, 2004)

Hear hear. I would also like to see Mr. Hartman's take on the subject as the whole bolo/Modern Arnis/bladework angle is of great interest to me. Please discuss.

Rich Curren


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 19, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Careful.....its like a minefield around here lately.... (hope I didn't divert your thread there Dan) (oh.oh Im no longer a "jewel in the rough")


No.  Just want the man to be able to speak his part.

Yours,
Dan


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jul 19, 2004)

*
Please keep the thread on topic.

Thank You

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Assistant Operational Administrator
*


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 19, 2004)

Just an FYI - Tim just finished running the MartialTalk Buffalo camp, and went straight into a week long kids camp at his school.  Give him some breathing room as you folks who've done these things can relate to the challenges.


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 19, 2004)

Kaith,

Sorry - I can't buy that.  I've spent enought time with him to know that he can be a night owl when he wants to be.  He started a thread which turned into somewhat of a knock on Bram and then turned into a food fight.  His opinion of what it was about should come to the forefront.  I am running a summer camp all summer long.  I run a school until 9:00 PM.  I just got back from a 6 hour drive from Canada last night.  It doesn't wash.  The sooner he comments, the sooner this can be laid to rest.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Flatlander (Jul 20, 2004)

Is there a missing post here?  Where'd Tgace's quote come from?  Where is this going?  I just don't understand.  Why is this a big deal?  I thought everyone was discussing in the first place...I didn't see badness there.  What did I miss?  I should probably just shut up, but I'm certain I'm not the only clueless idiot.  Am I?  God I hope not.


----------



## ARNIS PRINCESS (Jul 20, 2004)

Okay guys, get a life.  Tim just finished the Martial Talk camp and went right into a kids summer camp.  Right now, he's working on a rattan order.  He has to be at the school in less than an hour.  And he still has a home life....I'm not high maintenance, but I do enjoy spending time with Tim.  Dan, especially you should understand this point.  There have been times when we've e-mailed you and not gotten a response for weeks.  When we finally hear from you, your excuse is that you had "family matters" to deal with.  Isn't Tim allowed a personal life?  Why am I any less important than your wife or family? Why does he need to stop what he needs to be doing just because *YOU* want an answer?  Paraphrasing Tim - they can kiss a certain part of his body!
 :whip: 

Janice


----------



## DoxN4cer (Jul 20, 2004)

YAWN...

Did somebody say something?  

ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

:whip:


----------



## bart (Jul 20, 2004)

Hey Guys,

It seems like this thing is heating up again. Please, let's not risk closing the thread AGAIN. I'd like to hear what Tim has to say. Maybe he has nothing to say. Let's discuss this on our own and let Tim chime in or not. 

I don't know Bram Frank from Adam. But as a Tagalog speaker I do know that "bolong gubat" sounds pretty weird and kind of off. That's the direct translation of "jungle bolo". In my experience among the lay person a bolo is a bolo is a bolo. It's just as good for chopping coconuts as chicken heads. The differences are only in the manufacturer and the person using it. Filipinos think of a bolo much like Americans think of a hammer. It's a tool that almost everybody has around the house. The kids can't use it till there a certain age. And everybody accepts that it could be and has been used as a weapon. But to me "jungle bolo" has the same ring to it as "forest hammer". It's not too weird, but it makes just as much sense. 

So my suspicion is that the term is used by a small minority of people in one part of Negros or that GM Presas coined the term himself and passed it on to Bram and others. Maybe "jungle bolo" sounds better in Bisaya than Tagalog. I concede that bolo could be used as a general term and that for instance a "pinuti" would be a type of bolo. Also, just because the term strikes me as odd, doesn't mean that the techniques won't work and that it's not legit blade work. I don't favor the blade anyway and I haven't seen the DVD's, so I don't know. People I respect seem to think it's good stuff and without looking at it myself, I'm not going to pass judgement. It's only the term that I have reservations about. 

Just my two cents on the matter.


----------



## DoxN4cer (Jul 20, 2004)

Great input, Bart !!!  It's good to get the view of a Tagaolg speaker,  I'm a Taglish speaker myself, with some Ilonggo and Cebuano thrown in to add to my confusion.  I thoroughly enjoyed your post.  

Tim Kashino


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 20, 2004)

Cool input, Bart...I am going to actually cut and past it over in the "agricultural bolo vs. fighting bolo" thread, then comment.

 :asian:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 20, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> I'm a Taglish speaker




Tim-
Troppo difettoso che la vostra comprensione della lingua inglese non è buona quanto il vostro ordine di "Taglish".  Che quando qualcuno fa un punto valido, ritenete il contatore di bisogno con un commento ignaro.  

Just in case you are not a polyglot, and your command of the Italian language is as good as your command of English:

Too bad that your comprehension of the English language is not as good as your command of *"Taglish".  * It is unfortunate that when someone makes a valid point, you feel the need counter with an ignorant comment.


Janice


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 20, 2004)

ARNIS PRINCESS said:
			
		

> Okay guys, get a life.  Tim just finished the Martial Talk camp and went right into a kids summer camp.  Right now, he's working on a rattan order.  He has to be at the school in less than an hour.  And he still has a home life....I'm not high maintenance, but I do enjoy spending time with Tim.  Dan, especially you should understand this point.  There have been times when we've e-mailed you and not gotten a response for weeks.  When we finally hear from you, your excuse is that you had "family matters" to deal with.  Isn't Tim allowed a personal life?  Why am I any less important than your wife or family? Why does he need to stop what he needs to be doing just because *YOU* want an answer?  Paraphrasing Tim - they can kiss a certain part of his body!
> :whip:
> 
> Janice



Hi Janice,

Nice to hear from you.  Sorry about any upset I've caused you.  Yes, you* are *as important to Tim as Marie is to me.  Yes, he has a home life.  Tim and I both know that he does not need to do ANYTHING on account of me.  Kaith just said, _Tim just finished running the MartialTalk Buffalo camp, and went straight into a week long kids camp at his school. Give him some breathing room as you folks who've done these things can relate to the challenges._  He said nothing about family life.  From chats you and I have had, you know how important my family is to me and you are absolutely correct in saying that especially I should understand that.  I do.

The thread went from "Hey, look at this." to a possible slam on another friend of mine.  Tim's is the only viewpoint not heard from yet and he is the one who started the thread.  That is the only point I'm making.

Again, I am going to be the last person to interfere with anyone else' family life.  especially when I have seen how well you two get along.   *That* is definitely not my intention.

Yours,
Dan

PS - Tell Tim thanks for the offer but there's only one behind I kiss.  Marie definitely wouldn't understand.


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 20, 2004)

Hi Bart,

Good post.  I'm inclined to agree with you regarding the name jungle bolo.  As far as I know it's more of "a bolo for fighting in the jungle" than a proper name.  Maybe RP said it was a jungle bolo.  I'll ask him the next time I email him.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## ARNIS PRINCESS (Jul 20, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> He said nothing about family life.



Should anyone have to say anything about their family life?

Before anyone gets all upset, I didn't realized Tim didn't log off before I made my post.

Janice


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 20, 2004)

ARNIS PRINCESS said:
			
		

> Should anyone have to say anything about their family life?
> 
> Janice


Hi Janice,

No, not really.  It explains to me why the delay in his reply.  That's all.  Usually he's quite quick to respond.  

Yours,
Dan


----------



## bart (Jul 20, 2004)

Hey There,

Some of these comments could have and should have been done by PM. Please take advantage of that capability should you want to say something personal about someone to someone else.  Someone or another's behind and kissing said behind are not valid topics in this thread. Those who are upset should take a deep breath and be mature before commiting words to a public forum. There is a lot of energy here. Let's keep it lively but not hurtful.


----------



## ARNIS PRINCESS (Jul 20, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Hi Janice,
> 
> No, not really.  It explains to me why the delay in his reply.  That's all.  Usually he's quite quick to respond.
> 
> ...



Dan-

It's a shame that the others aren't as understanding as you are. :asian: 

JAS


----------



## Joe Eccleston (Jul 20, 2004)

_Very good post, bart... In addition, I was told that 'gubat' in Bisaya also means 'war'.  War Bolo?  Now, a question, if most of the Eskrimadors came from the Visayas region of the Philippines, why are the majority of the terminology in Tagalog (i.e. Laban Laro, bolong gubat, etc.)? It seems there has always been historical politics regarding Tagalog and Bisaya.  Did Mr. Presas use Tagalog exclusively for his terms, or is this something new among his students? (He was Bisaya, correct?). :asian: _




_


			
				bart said:
			
		


			Hey Guys,
		
Click to expand...

_


			
				bart said:
			
		

> _It seems like this thing is heating up again. Please, let's not risk closing the thread AGAIN. I'd like to hear what Tim has to say. Maybe he has nothing to say. Let's discuss this on our own and let Tim chime in or not. _
> 
> _I don't know Bram Frank from Adam. But as a Tagalog speaker I do know that "bolong gubat" sounds pretty weird and kind of off. That's the direct translation of "jungle bolo". In my experience among the lay person a bolo is a bolo is a bolo. It's just as good for chopping coconuts as chicken heads. The differences are only in the manufacturer and the person using it. Filipinos think of a bolo much like Americans think of a hammer. It's a tool that almost everybody has around the house. The kids can't use it till there a certain age. And everybody accepts that it could be and has been used as a weapon. But to me "jungle bolo" has the same ring to it as "forest hammer". It's not too weird, but it makes just as much sense. _
> 
> ...


----------



## loki09789 (Jul 20, 2004)

ARNIS PRINCESS said:
			
		

> Should anyone have to say anything about their family life?
> 
> Before anyone gets all upset, I didn't realized Tim didn't log off before I made my post.
> 
> Janice


So Tim was logged in and still hasn't responded?

On the topic, Bart makes a good point about a 'minority' of users, but from the little I am getting, that minority is a living heritage because the PI military unit that bears the 'jungle bolo' - or what ever the term/language being used by the unit is - that the Presas family is credited with instructing their forefathers to use during WWII is still a part of the unit's 'signature' - much like the NCO sword or the officers Mameluke sword in the USMC.

Does anyone have any contacts that could get 'horses mouth' info from the unit or at least a veteran of the unit?

Another thing to consider is that linguistics is really far more meaningful in "transliteration" than "literal translation" so RP could have shorted handed or did a closest fit term use from PI (pick your language) to English.

There were other points in the original thread that warrent discussion:  The influence of the various RP system resume on MA, and which one was a greater influence during certain periods and while he was instructing certain areas/countries.

It makes sense that he would use a blade emphasis in the PI only because it was such a commonly accepted part of the culture.  That would put a different spin on MA from PI relative to those who learned it in the West.  In an earlier thread, I remember someone referring to Largo abanico as "Planting rice movement" as a cultural reference that would be more meaningful to PI natives than those from the west.

Westerners would be more comfortable with picking up MA if RP emphasised his own Karate background as the intro/linking art to get people into MA.  Plus the stick and 'forms' approach would be within the comfort zone of Trad art types.  In the end, it is up to the individual to take what ever the starting point is and let it lead them through the concepts and important movements of the system.

What would MA people consider the core of MA that someone would have to master in order to understand the larger concepts that the drills and movements are meant to reveal?


----------



## bart (Jul 20, 2004)

Hey There,

The Bisaya - Tagalog thing is complicated and resonates on several different levels. For one thing GM Presas made a name for himself in Manila, not in the Visayas. In the Visayas he was relatively unknown until he became famous in the north. In Manila they speak Tagalog. So if he wanted to teach, the students would understand Tagalog better than anything else. But also the use of Tagalog is pretty political. 

Pilipino is the official name of the national language, alongside English and Spanish. It is based on Tagalog but it contains elements of other dialects and is grammatically simpler and more standardized than traditional Tagalog which has great differences between regional subdialects. Also with the institution of Pilipino as the national language it became literary and academic. Other dialects in the Philippines are not treated that way. In the state supported academic environments of the universities and schools where GM Presas made his name he could use Pilipino, English, or Spanish. But because the art is truly Filipino the idea of using a language native to one of the colonial masters was somewhat "unpatriotic". So he chose to do it in Pilipino. 

Some of his terms are no doubt "Filipinized" Spanish, but where he could, he used Pilipino. Also this meant that his art could be understood all over the Philippines and not just in one area. No doubt that all over the Philippines people would much rather have things in their own dialect but people are actually much more accepting of having to know multiple languages than people are here in the US. And they understand why it would have to be in the standard business language of Pilipino than in the dialect of Illongo that's particular to their village. 

Anyway, it's a pretty tough topic and there are many answers. That's just my take.


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 20, 2004)

The PI terminology RP used here in the US was Taglog.

Now, what his 1st language was, I do not know. He was versed in many languages, English being far from first.


----------



## ARNIS PRINCESS (Jul 20, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> So Tim was logged in and still hasn't responded?



No, the computer that he uses is *ALWAYS * logged on. Are you trying to start something? :idunno:


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 20, 2004)

Question: what is this thread supposed to be about?

I thought this was a new thread so Datu Tim could give his opinion the E-digest topics. If so, then shouldn't we all shut up for about the next week here, and wait for his response?

Please take no offense from my question or comments. I am really just wondering if that is what we should do here...

PAUL


----------



## loki09789 (Jul 20, 2004)

ARNIS PRINCESS said:
			
		

> No, the computer that he uses is *ALWAYS *logged on. Are you trying to start something? :idunno:


If it is always logged on, how could you 'not realize' that Tim had not logged off?  People are creatures of habit and routine so I guess you just forgot to check to see if Tim was logged off, like you would have to normally (and since you are making a point of posting as yourself regularly) if it is always logged on.

Starting something? No.  Observation? Yes.  I posted to the topic, if you want to discuss the personal, please use the PM as Bart suggested.


----------



## loki09789 (Jul 20, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Question: what is this thread supposed to be about?
> 
> I thought this was a new thread so Datu Tim could give his opinion the E-digest topics. If so, then shouldn't we all shut up for about the next week here, and wait for his response?
> 
> ...


I think we can continue discussions as long as we leave room at the table for Tim's comments, when he decides to jump in with one.


----------



## ARNIS PRINCESS (Jul 20, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> If it is always logged on, how could you 'not realize' that Tim had not logged off?  People are creatures of habit and routine so I guess you just forgot to check to see if Tim was logged off, like you would have to normally (and since you are making a point of posting as yourself regularly) if it is always logged on.
> 
> Starting something? No.  Observation? Yes.  I posted to the topic, if you want to discuss the personal, please use the PM as Bart suggested.




I hardly consider 31 posts since 2001 regular!  However, sometimes I start reading a thread, get caught up in a thought and forget to log in as myself.  We can't all be perfect!

Janice


----------



## Tgace (Jul 20, 2004)

To kind of stay on topic...just as there are hunting rifles and military rifles, I dont see whay there wouldnt be ag. bolos and fighting bolos.


----------



## Tgace (Jul 20, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Is there a missing post here? Where'd Tgace's quote come from? Where is this going? I just don't understand. Why is this a big deal? I thought everyone was discussing in the first place...I didn't see badness there. What did I miss? I should probably just shut up, but I'm certain I'm not the only clueless idiot. Am I? God I hope not.


Hey flat, guess I ticked somebody off ( I know who, but it would be childish of me to cry about it) now I guess I face the consequences of plummeting rep and removed posts.


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 20, 2004)

> No, the computer that he uses is ALWAYS logged on. Janice


I can verify that.  When I stayed with Tim, it was always on.


> Question: what is this thread supposed to be about?  I thought this was a new thread so Datu Tim could give his opinion the E-digest topics. If so, then shouldn't we all shut up for about the next week here, and wait for his response?  Please take no offense from my question or comments. I am really just wondering if that is what we should do here...Tulisan


You answered it.  Shut up and wait?  No.  Continue informed discussions or relate opinions?  Certainly.  Have a food fight?  No.

Moderatingly yours,
Dan Anderson, self appointed and thoroughly powerless quasi moderator


----------



## Joe Eccleston (Jul 20, 2004)

This clarifies a lot, bart...  I was wondering, among the many Bisaya (Cebuano) eskrimadors you've trained under, were they pro-Pilipino (Tagalog), or were they more 'regionalistic' (and spoke, or tried to speak only in Bisaya and English, by-passing Tagalog (Pilipino) all together)? The majority of the people I train with (my good friends) are Bisaya and there seems to be a very "anti-Tagalog" perspective from them.  I don't know many Tagalog eskrimadors, it'd be great to hear more from you about this (learning more about this cultural nuance).:asian:  




			
				bart said:
			
		

> Hey There,





			
				bart said:
			
		

> The Bisaya - Tagalog thing is complicated and resonates on several different levels. For one thing GM Presas made a name for himself in Manila, not in the Visayas. In the Visayas he was relatively unknown until he became famous in the north. In Manila they speak Tagalog. So if he wanted to teach, the students would understand Tagalog better than anything else. But also the use of Tagalog is pretty political.
> 
> Pilipino is the official name of the national language, alongside English and Spanish. It is based on Tagalog but it contains elements of other dialects and is grammatically simpler and more standardized than traditional Tagalog which has great differences between regional subdialects. Also with the institution of Pilipino as the national language it became literary and academic. Other dialects in the Philippines are not treated that way. In the state supported academic environments of the universities and schools where GM Presas made his name he could use Pilipino, English, or Spanish. But because the art is truly Filipino the idea of using a language native to one of the colonial masters was somewhat "unpatriotic". So he chose to do it in Pilipino.
> 
> ...


----------



## KenpoTess (Jul 20, 2004)

I must be getting old.. I can't read Joe's font


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 20, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> I must be getting old.. I can't read Joe's font


Joe,

Larger font size, please.  How can we argue with you if we can't read what you post?   

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 21, 2004)

This was part of another thread that was closed, but after talking to the MT Assistant Admin he felt it would be appropriate for my response to go here.

*Bram:*

In no way am I trying to slam Bram. If I wanted to attack him, I would just come out and do it. I have supported his efforts in the past including letting him use my school for a seminar at no cost to him. We ALL have skeletons and I know where most of them are buried. I choose NOT to bring this up in an attempt to coexist peacefully. When Im pushed or harassed I can or will bring this type of info to light _*(this is a general statement not directed at Bram or this topic). * _ I havent seen the video. I dont know who he trained with to get the material or who he might have interviewed. Brams a good martial artist and I assume its a good product. 


*Presas family art:*

This is a hard one. I think that the only ones who could tell us for sure are Ernesto & Roberto Presas. When I see them in April I will ask them. Let me first say this, I think there is a difference between *Presas family arnis * and *Modern Arnis*. Remys first exposure to FMA was during WW2. He was watching his father teaching the military. From The WMAA sight: http://www.wmarnis.com/remy.html


> Grandmaster Presas, or "The Professor" as he prefers to be called, spent much of his youth in the mountains of the Philippines, hiding from the invading Japanese army. His father was Lieutenant Jose Presas, a US army officer whose duty was to train the troops in the ancient bladed arts of his native land.
> The Professor began training in martial arts at the tender age of five.  Filipino tradition dictates that it is the duty of the grandfather to pass on the family arts to his grandchildren. Everyday for four years, Remy's grandfather, Leon Presas, would teach him the intricacies of Ochoo, the figure eight style and Palis - Palis, the art of the pass. Remy learned quickly, moving and striking like a natural.


Now lets talk about this for a moment. Jose Presas was a military man teaching the troops. During the war it would make more sense to teach blade work than stick work. During the WMAA 2004 Buffalo training camp we had the honor to work with Punong Guro Myrlino P. Hufana. During a lunch break a couple of us had the opportunity to ask him a couple question about his family system. What he had told us was that his family system was a stick art, but during WW2 it was taught as a blade art. When someone asked him why, he told us that his father told him that bolos were a better tool against guns than sticks were.

This makes me wonder.
1.	Did Jose Presas teach the soldiers a course that he developed or a predetermined military course?
2.	If it was his family art that he taught, was it a bladed system or a stick art modified for a bladed tool?
3.	What was the program Leon Presas taught based on? Stick or blade?
4.	How much of the family art was in Modern Arnis before Remys passing?
5.	What did the family art look like before, during and after WW2?

I dont have the answers; however I do feel that this is an interesting topic and will research it further.

 :asian:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 21, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> This clarifies a lot, bart...  I was wondering, among the many Bisaya (Cebuano) eskrimadors you've trained under, were they pro-Pilipino (Tagalog), or were they more 'regionalistic' (and spoke, or tried to speak only in Bisaya and English, by-passing Tagalog (Pilipino) all together)? The majority of the people I train with (my good friends) are Bisaya and there seems to be a very "anti-Tagalog" perspective from them.  I don't know many Tagalog eskrimadors, it'd be great to hear more from you about this (learning more about this cultural nuance).:asian:




Please change font size. :asian:


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 21, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> *Bram:*
> 
> In no way am I trying to slam Bram. (I choose not to quote full reply - DA)


thanks, Tim.  That answers my own personal question.



> *Presas family art:*
> 
> This is a hard one. I think that the only ones who could tell us for sure are Ernesto & Roberto Presas. When I see them in April I will ask them. Let me first say this, I think there is a difference between *Presas family arnis * and *Modern Arnis*.


Absolutely!.  Modern Arnis is a composite of the arts Remy Presas assimilated in his training.  I think the family art and balintawak eskrima, whether the Moncal/Maranga variants, or Bacon original, form the fundamental roots of Modern Arnis. 





> Remys first exposure to FMA was during WW2. He was watching his father teaching the military. From The WMAA sight: http://www.wmarnis.com/remy.html
> 
> Now lets talk about this for a moment. Jose Presas was a military man teaching the troops. During the war it would make more sense to teach blade work than stick work. During the WMAA 2004 Buffalo training camp we had the honor to work with Punong Guro Myrlino P. Hufana. During a lunch break a couple of us had the opportunity to ask him a couple question about his family system. What he had told us was that his (Myrlino's - DA) family system was a stick art, but during WW2 it was taught as a blade art. When someone asked him why, he told us that his father told him that bolos were a better tool against guns than sticks were.
> 
> ...


Good historical questions here.  I think the answer lies back in the PI.  I think SM Roland Dantes might have some of them as well as GM Ernesto Presas.  I, for one, am very interested in pre-1974 (read that as pre-US) Modern Arnis.  I've found that even as an American Freestyle Karate player, knowledge of history has really helped my own understanding of the art.  I think that same understanding of the historical roots of Modern Arnis will do the same for my MA.  Good post - good questions to research.  That closes this thread for me.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Joe Eccleston (Jul 21, 2004)

This clarifies a lot, bart... I was wondering, among the many Bisaya (Cebuano) eskrimadors you've trained under, were they pro-Pilipino (Tagalog), or were they more 'regionalistic' (and spoke, or tried to speak only in Bisaya and English, by-passing Tagalog (Pilipino) all together)? The majority of the people I train with (my good friends) are Bisaya and there seems to be a very "anti-Tagalog" perspective from them. I don't know many Tagalog eskrimadors, it'd be great to hear more from you about this (learning more about this cultural nuance).


(sorry, Guys... I could read it perfectly in my screen.:idunno: )


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 21, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> (sorry, Guys... I could read it perfectly in my screen.:idunno: )



No problem Joe.


----------



## Guro Harold (Jul 21, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> This makes me wonder.
> 1.	Did Jose Presas teach the soldiers a course that he developed or a predetermined military course?
> 2.	If it was his family art that he taught, was it a bladed system or a stick art modified for a bladed tool?
> 3.	What was the program Leon Presas taught based on? Stick or blade?
> ...



Great questions, Tim!

In some of his videos, GM Presas did reference his Grandfather for some of techniques like Palis-Palis.

From what I have heard, GM Giron who was an WWII war hero also taught troops blade oriented techniques based on Cinco Terros.  Someone please correct this if it is in-accurate.

Palusut


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 21, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Great questions, Tim!
> 
> In some of his videos, GM Presas did reference his Grandfather for some of techniques like Palis-Palis.




I was first taught Palis-Palis in the 80's. At first it was shown stick and dagger, eventually becoming single stick with locks and controls.

 :asian:


----------



## bart (Jul 21, 2004)

Joe Eccleston said:
			
		

> This clarifies a lot, bart... I was wondering, among the many Bisaya (Cebuano) eskrimadors you've trained under, were they pro-Pilipino (Tagalog), or were they more 'regionalistic' (and spoke, or tried to speak only in Bisaya and English, by-passing Tagalog (Pilipino) all together)? The majority of the people I train with (my good friends) are Bisaya and there seems to be a very "anti-Tagalog" perspective from them. I don't know many Tagalog eskrimadors, it'd be great to hear more from you about this (learning more about this cultural nuance).



In my limited experience, I think that overall to them it is a "non-issue" in regards to training. They tend to be "apolitical" for the most part in that sense. They simply speak in whatever language is the medium of conversation whenever and wherever they are, as is the common practice amongst Filipinos in general. 

I think however in the hearts of some of them is a resentment to the imposition of Tagalog on the rest of the country. To them Tagalog is just as foreign to their province as English is and they resent being forced to learn and use that language. This is especially so because Tagalog is essentially just another regional dialect, and in a way its use suggests their native dialect is "second best". But for the most part they are all intelligent people and understand that in order for a country to function as a whole, it's citizens must be able to at least rudimentarily understand one another and that a national language needs to be in place to foster such an environment. The type of resentment that you find is common amongst all of the dialect groups and not just the Bisaya.  If I had to choose I would say that they are Pro-Pilipino, but only very reluctantly. Some of them would perhaps favor English over Tagalog even as the basis of "Pilipino".

As for Tagalog eskrimadors I think that they will be aplenty at the FMA Expo in Las Vegas if you're going to be there. There will be people from Bakbakan , LSA, and some other Manila Based groups. For the most part, I think that it's a non-issue for them as well. Lots of them are not native Tagalog anyway, coming from Pampanga, Batangas, Ilocos, etc. But because they live in a Tagalog speaking place, they speak Tagalog. 

Just my thoughts.


----------

