# Shoes - Weapons or hindrances?



## Orange Lightning (Apr 7, 2015)

I've been mulling this one over for years, and I still can't decide.
Obviously, it depends on the type of shoe. Anyway, here are my thoughts.

Shoes slow down your kicks. No two ways about it. All kicks become slower, and aside from simply having less impact or missing entirely, it increases the chance that your kick can be caught. 

However, they do let you throw kicks in ways that wouldn't be effective without shoes, or would at least be very dangerous to the kicker. They can add a little length to your toe and heel (which is both a pro and a con, depending on the kick thrown), but the material your shoe is made of isn't as hard as your actual heel. But both your heel and toes will be protected from harder materials. 
Obviously, shoes are armor. You can kick hard materials harder without it hurting your foot, as well as be able to traverse otherwise problematic terrain. If someone tries to attack your foot during a kick, your foot is pretty well protected.

Also obviously, you're going to be wearing shoes all the time. It's smart to be good at kicking while wearing shoes. They have their pro's and con's for it though. If I knew beforehand that I had to fight someone and the terrain would be relatively clean, I would prefer being barefoot. I'm not going to have that option though. 

How do you feel about kicking wearing shoes? Are there certain design features that you look for in your shoe? I try to find a narrow one that doesn't do too much foot arch correcting. The arch takes the power out of a sidekick, and I feel that it lessens the springiness of my feet.


----------



## KyleSCSpence (Apr 7, 2015)

I know what you mean, i would do it barefoot but its not feasible in most scenarios. I like kung fu shoes, there are many types but they are basically designed with good kicks in mind, might be worth investing in at your discretion. i find them comfortable and pleasant to wear, as well as getting some armored benefits.


----------



## elder999 (Apr 7, 2015)

My feet are always better protected and better weapons when wearing shoes....they are much better weapons wearing sturdy leather shoes, maybe not so much better in sneakers, and maybe not at all in sandals....of course, when you have deformed size 15s like mine, you rarely wear sandals....much less bedroom slippers.

High-heels, of course, are another story-though  I never have occasion to wear them...

That said, we should learn to deliver kicks shod with each type of footwear that we have occasion to wear-it[s usually a little different than kicking barefoot.....and I'm not talking about speed, which I've found to be a rather insignificant difference, when it comes to self-defense...


----------



## elder999 (Apr 7, 2015)

My feet are always better protected and better weapons when wearing shoes....they are much better weapons wearing sturdy leather shoes, maybe not so much better in sneakers, and maybe not at all in sandals....of course, when you have deformed size 15s like mine, you rarely wear sandals....much less bedroom slippers.

High-heels, of course, are another story-though  I never have occasion to wear them...

That said, we should learn to deliver kicks shod with each type of footwear that we have occasion to wear-it[s usually a little different than kicking barefoot.....and I'm not talking about speed, which I've found to be a rather insignificant difference, when it comes to self-defense...


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 7, 2015)

I wear shoes; so, I don't expect fleet kicks. Leg shots are still fast, though.


----------



## K-man (Apr 7, 2015)

Any kick I'm likely to do will not be hindered by shoes and if I'm going to be running away over rough ground I don't want to be bare foot.


----------



## Carol (Apr 7, 2015)

I rarely encounter people or places where being barefoot is OK.   Always wondered why more people do not train in street clothes, including street shoes.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Apr 7, 2015)

Shoes with steel toes and heels when I can find them and  boots much like combat boots or winter boots are what I wear when I'm on the street or in public buildings. When at home I am bare footed most of he time.  So I train with what I am most likely to be wearing.  I do not kick to the head but prefer low kicks and the footwear I choose is well suited to this purpose.


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 7, 2015)

elder999 said:


> My feet are always better protected and better weapons when wearing shoes....they are much better weapons wearing sturdy leather shoes, maybe not so much better in sneakers, and maybe not at all in sandals....of course, when you have deformed size 15s like mine, you rarely wear sandals....much less bedroom slippers.
> 
> High-heels, of course, are another story-though  I never have occasion to wear them...


That's an image...   Now, any mental bleach to get it out of my mind?


> That said, we should learn to deliver kicks shod with each type of footwear that we have occasion to wear-it[s usually a little different than kicking barefoot.....and I'm not talking about speed, which I've found to be a rather insignificant difference, when it comes to self-defense...


Excellent advice.


----------



## clfsean (Apr 7, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> I've been mulling this one over for years, and I still can't decide.
> Obviously, it depends on the type of shoe. Anyway, here are my thoughts.
> 
> Shoes slow down your kicks. No two ways about it. All kicks become slower, and aside from simply having less impact or missing entirely, it increases the chance that your kick can be caught.
> ...



How often are you barefoot in the day to day world?


----------



## Danny T (Apr 7, 2015)

What are you kicking and why?
For competition in a ring or cage you will wear what the rules allow.
For self-defense in a fight back situation I wear whatever is on my feet at the time. Sandals, crosstrainers, boots..., whatever. Train with what you are likely to have to kick with.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 7, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> The arch takes the power out of a sidekick, ...


This shoes can help your "side kick".


----------



## drop bear (Apr 8, 2015)

I do not fight nearly enough people to Worry about how combat ready my shoes are.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 8, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> I've been mulling this one over for years, and I still can't decide.
> Obviously, it depends on the type of shoe. Anyway, here are my thoughts.
> 
> Shoes slow down your kicks. No two ways about it. All kicks become slower, and aside from simply having less impact or missing entirely, it increases the chance that your kick can be caught.



I don't recommend wearing 10lb shoes.... I wouldn't say that shoes are automatically going to slow kicks. I normally wear light tennis shoes. They're awfully similar to the weight of ring shoes...



Orange Lightning said:


> How do you feel about kicking wearing shoes? Are there certain design features that you look for in your shoe? I try to find a narrow one that doesn't do too much foot arch correcting. The arch takes the power out of a sidekick, and I feel that it lessens the springiness of my feet.



What system teaches using the arch of the foot for a sidekick?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 8, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Shoes slow down your kicks.


Unless you are wearing high heels or steel cap boots the amount of speed you lose on your kicks will be negligible.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> That's an image... Now, any mental bleach to get it out of my mind?



You are going to hate me for this. A very weird ad on our televisions at the moment.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Apr 8, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> That's an image...   Now, any mental bleach to get it out of my mind?
> 
> Excellent advice.



Post 16 by Tez3, after Elder's post, has pretty much ruined my day.


----------



## Buka (Apr 8, 2015)

You can look at the best kicking circumstances - I suppose that would be barefoot on a flat, good gripped floor for most Martial Artists who employ kicks. 
_Or_ you can look at your most likely arena of combat. "Most likely" being a relative term dealing with where you live and where you spend most of your time working, spending time with your family and friends....and where you chill.

I live in New England. Our snow totals are sometimes in feet. Add a bazillion pounds of sand and salt to all outside icy surfaces you walk on every day for four months - and what you have is a mess. Go ahead and throw some kicks on that. Timing will not be what we are used to in Dojo. And timing is everything in striking, especially in kicking. This is up to each of us to explore, play with and train. Living in New England, most will choose shoes that don't let our feet get frostbit, or to slip and slide on the surfaces we spend most of our winter life on. This is while we're wearing many layered clothing that protects against the cold - which can also change the timing of movement because it's rather restrictive compared to the gi we're used to training in.

All that being said, any pair of shoes I've purchased over the years were never based on fashion. They were based on movement.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 8, 2015)

clfsean said:


> How often are you barefoot in the day to day world?


Every day, in the middle of the night when someone breaks into your house you might not have time to put your shoes on. At the beach, at the pool etc.


----------



## Danny T (Apr 8, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Every day, in the middle of the night when someone breaks into your house you might not have time to put your shoes on. At the beach, at the pool etc.


Any this is why we train inside and outside, with different types of footwear and without footwear. There is no specific right or wrong. 
What Are You Training For? 
Specifically for competition then a majority of your training must be for that environment and rule set.
For fighting back in a self-defense situation, then a majority of your training must be for different environments, clothing, and legalities.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

....Almost everyone missed the point. 
Obviously, like Danny just said, you should train with whatever you're most likely to be kicking with.
I was exclusively trying to get everyone's point of view on how their shoes could help or hinder the damaging ability of their kicking. And, if anyone chose specific qualiities in their shoes to enhance their fighting ability, whether it was for footworking or kicking.


oftheherd1 said:


> Post 16 by Tez3, after Elder's post, has pretty much ruined my day.



Post 16 made my day. xD XD xD


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 8, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Every day, in the middle of the night when someone breaks into your house you might not have time to put your shoes on. At the beach, at the pool etc.



I'm not worried about shoes (or pants) at home in the middle of the night. I'm also far more likely to shoot an intruder than kick them.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Unless you are wearing high heels or steel cap boots the amount of speed you lose on your kicks will be negligible.



It really depends on the shoe, and the kick. Most of my low kicks are barely affected. My mid and high level round and hook kicks are quite a bit slower. Spinning hooks are even slower. Not too slow, but it's noticeable. It's a lot worse if I don't get any momentum from taking my foot off the ground and only use muscular force. I would agree though, that it's negligible  for plenty of kicks.
And the shoe - I've worn plenty of shoes that were too wide and large, and slowed down my kicks slightly more than my current ones. And without advantage of any kind. Some of them even padded my round kicks. They were good enough armor though.

My current shoes also have long heels, so they change the range I can hit with maximum force with an axe or hook kick.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

elder999 said:


> My feet are always better protected and better weapons when wearing shoes....they are much better weapons wearing sturdy leather shoes, maybe not so much better in sneakers, and maybe not at all in sandals....of course, when you have deformed size 15s like mine, you rarely wear sandals....much less bedroom slippers.
> 
> High-heels, of course, are another story-though  I never have occasion to wear them...
> 
> That said, we should learn to deliver kicks shod with each type of footwear that we have occasion to wear-it[s usually a little different than kicking barefoot.....and I'm not talking about speed, which I've found to be a rather insignificant difference, when it comes to self-defense...



Sounds like I need to get different shoes. My shoes definitely change my kicking dynamic. What kind of shoe do you wear?


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2015)

I wear whatever shoes go with what I'm wearing or whatever I feel like wearing. If my feet are happy then the rest of me is, I will if necessary kick with whatever I'm wearing, the thought of buying shoes just so I can kick in them makes me shudder. If I can't kick because of the shoes I'm wearing I have plenty of other options, I don't kick high  and I use the bottom of my shin to kick anyway so shoes for kicking doesn't concern me at all. Shoes because they are shoes, is a whole new subject.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 8, 2015)

So.... you didn't answer my question... 
What system teaches using the arch of the foot for a sidekick?


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> So.... you didn't answer my question...
> What system teaches using the arch of the foot for a sidekick?



You know the answer to that question.

I understand that it's taught to do sidekicks with the blade of the foot. I don't like doing that. I feel like it's easy to hurt myself if my timing is wrong. I prefer to hit with my heel, but I land plenty with my arch just because my timing was off. I feel that it has more stopping power too. 
Besides, I have foot problems as it is. I don't need to take my chances putting so much force on those bones. If I'm wearing shoes.... well, that might be different, now that I think about it.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 8, 2015)

So basically, you're kicking wrong, and then blaming the shoe. 
The shoe isn't the problem. The incorrect kick is.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Apr 8, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> What kind of shoe do you wear?



as I said earlier in this thread I wear steel toed and if possible steel heeled shoes and boots.  
Yes the do damage to people when used and yes if I ever go to court in this country I'll most likely be in trouble for using them as a weapon.  Yes they have set people to the emergency room in the past.  If I have to wear shoes I prefer that they not only look nice but afford me some protection also


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> So basically, you're kicking wrong, and then blaming the shoe.
> The shoe isn't the problem. The incorrect kick is.



You misinterpreted my post.

The shoe has nothing to do with the form of my side kick.They dampen some kicks, some more than others. In my case, wearing shoes armors the part *of my specific body's bones that are prone to injury,* and with the possibility of impact injury being less while wearing shoes, I can consider using the blade of my foot when I'm wearing shoes.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 8, 2015)

Bottom line is that you're kicking incorrectly. A shoe won't fix that. Training will.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> So basically, you're kicking wrong, and then blaming the shoe.
> The shoe isn't the problem. The incorrect kick is.



I am not kicking "wrong", or blaming the shoe for this supposed "wrong"ness. I am kicking with a different surface of my foot, which changes how the force transfers from my foot to my target. .
Most of the time, I kick barefoot. The blade of my foot is hardly an option for me while barefoot, but it could be when I'm wearing shoes.
Bottom line is that kicking with the blade of my foot could literally make me limp for days. A shoe can fix that, because it armors the part of the foot that would prevent me from kicking "correctly".


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 8, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> I am not kicking "wrong", or blaming the shoe for this supposed "wrong"ness. I am kicking with a different surface of my foot, which changes how the force transfers from my foot to my target. .
> Most of the time, I kick barefoot. The blade of my foot is hardly an option for me while barefoot, but it could be when I'm wearing shoes.
> Bottom line is that kicking with the blade of my foot could literally make me limp for days. A shoe can fix that, because it armors the part of the foot that would prevent me from kicking "correctly".



You've stated that you're using the arch of the foot for a sidekick. That is, actually, kicking wrong.


----------



## elder999 (Apr 8, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> That's an image...   Now, any mental bleach to get it out of my mind?.



Forgot the LMAO smiley, sorry.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





In all seriousness, I've posted elsehwere about working security with a friend who was a drag-queen, and watching him kick three guy's asses while wearing a mini-skirt and high-heels.....don't have any personal experience wearing or kicking in them, myself...pretty sure they don't come in men's size 15, anyway
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, but I've had a little experience helping women figure out how to move in them (short answer: get them off as soon as possible...about the only shoe I'd say this for)......when people are getting ready for brown belt, we put together a "street-clothes" kit for them, for street-clothes workouts, and it usually includes high-heels for the women, unless they claim to NEVER wear them.....for men it includes sneakers, workboots, and inexpensive dress-shoes...in some cases, like the sneaker, they are neither weapon nor hindrance-though you do have to work on orienting your foot properly, as they are a little different than barefoot. A good pair of Redwings, though, make a helluva missile out of each foot, and don't slow my kicks enough to make any difference, especially at self-defense height....


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2015)

Sidekicks are definitely not 'my' kick, I've never been able to get great height or power into them in many years so quite simply I don't do them. I don't need them for grading and I manage fine without them so rather than do them incorrectly or hesitate about doing them, hesitation often being fatal, I simply don't do them. Done well they are a brilliant kick, I don't do them well so it's a so so kick. I imagine others have various techniques that they don't use so it's not a tragedy if you don't do something and concentrate on things you do well so rather than worry about what shoes to wear, don't do sidekicks. Simples.


----------



## elder999 (Apr 8, 2015)

From a mechanical standpoint, if you land a kick with the arch, you're doing it wrong,

Since the first way I learned to sidekick was with the heel making contact, I have to say that, from a mechanical standpoint, if you make contact with the arch you're doing it wrong. Like you, I prefer to deliver sidekicks with the heel-barefoot or shod- unlike you, I've never landed one with my nearly non-existent arches, and I am, as I've always said, a congenital klutz, and only okay with kicking.....okay, I kick like a mule, and pretty high if I want to, but not.....pretty,


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> You've stated that you're using the arch of the foot for a sidekick. That is, actually, kicking wrong.



Ok. Fine. For the sake of argument, I can give you that kicking with the arch is inferior to kicking with the blade for creating impact, and would be the wrong choice to achieve that goal.
It doesn't matter for me though, if it's wrong or right. If I kick something with the blade of my foot, I will hurt the bones in my foot. Maybe it's the way the bones in my foot are aligned or the bones in my foot are unusually fragile. I don't rightly know.

If I kick something, barefoot, with the blade of my foot, I have a high chance of hurting it. There is no debating that point. It is the way it is. If that gimps my sidekicks, well... I'll just have to live with that. If I have to kick "wrong", to avoid that, I will.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Ok. Fine. For the sake of argument, I can give you that kicking with the arch is inferior to kicking with the blade for creating impact, and would be the wrong choice to achieve that goal.
> It doesn't matter for me though, if it's wrong or right. If I kick something with the blade of my foot, I will hurt the bones in my foot. Maybe it's the way the bones in my foot are aligned or the bones in my foot are unusually fragile. I don't rightly know.
> 
> If I kick something, barefoot, with the blade of my foot, I have a high chance of hurting it. There is no debating that point. It is the way it is. If that gimps my sidekicks, well... I'll just have to live with that. If I have to kick "wrong", to avoid that, I will.




So, why are you doing sidekicks? If it hurts, don't do it. If you can't or are unable to do it properly, don't do it. It goes against common sense.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> So, why are you doing sidekicks? If it hurts, don't do it. If you can't or are unable to do it properly, don't do it. It goes against common sense.



I can land with my heel just fine. Sometimes I land with my arch, but usually with my heel. I think it works pretty well landing with the heel. I don't think it lacks effectiveness this way at all. I just don't use the blade of my foot.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2015)

It's a riddle really, when is a side kick not a side kick, answer... when it's something else.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> It's a riddle really, when is a side kick not a side kick, answer... when it's something else.



Is a sidekick not a sidekick when you use your heel? Lots of people use their heel. 
Whatever it is, it serves me well.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 8, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Ok. Fine. For the sake of argument, I can give you that kicking with the arch is inferior to kicking with the blade for creating impact, and would be the wrong choice to achieve that goal.
> It doesn't matter for me though, if it's wrong or right. If I kick something with the blade of my foot, I will hurt the bones in my foot. Maybe it's the way the bones in my foot are aligned or the bones in my foot are unusually fragile. I don't rightly know.
> 
> If I kick something, barefoot, with the blade of my foot, I have a high chance of hurting it. There is no debating that point. It is the way it is. If that gimps my sidekicks, well... I'll just have to live with that. If I have to kick "wrong", to avoid that, I will.



It's not "inferior", it's wrong. Using the correct word is, in many ways, as important as doing the kick correctly.
And it's quite possible that there isn't anything wrong with your foot. You're just kicking incorrectly.
Sidekicks with the blade of the foot, done wrong, hurt. Done properly, they don't. And, frankly, the vast majority of sidekicks are done with the HEEL, not the blade, for very good reasons.
This highlights one of the many problems with trying to learn martial arts techniques without any actual training.
Because it really _*does*_ "matter for [you]" if it's wrong.
In a school, we'd make sure you were doing the kick right. On your own, you've gone from a poorly executed (and hence painful) sidekick to a completely wrong (and hence ineffective) sidekick.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Apr 8, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> ...
> 
> How do you feel about kicking wearing shoes? Are there certain design features that you look for in your shoe? I try to find a narrow one that doesn't do too much foot arch correcting. The arch takes the power out of a sidekick, and I feel that it lessens the springiness of my feet.



How does the arch take power out of a sidekick? or perhaps more importantly, how does one deliver a sidekick with the arch.  Normally I think of a sidekick as coming up and moving straight forward .  The arch can't come into play mechanically.  Now a snap kick up into the crotch can be.  A kick from the rear leg to the legs, waist or head where the leg is snapped, can be.  But what I usually mean when I say sidekick, just can't be done that way.  Or maybe there is a sidekick I don't know about.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's not "inferior", it's wrong. Using the correct word is, in many ways, as important as doing the kick correctly.
> And it's quite possible that there isn't anything wrong with your foot. You're just kicking incorrectly.
> Sidekicks with the blade of the foot, done wrong, hurt. Done properly, they don't. And, frankly, the vast majority of sidekicks are done with the HEEL, not the blade, for very good reasons.
> This highlights one of the many problems with trying to learn martial arts techniques without any actual training.
> ...



.......really?

Clearly, I died and you became the expert on my body. My feet hurt just walking sometimes. I've hurt my feet many times in totally unrelated things. 
I do all my sidekicks with my heel, so it isn't an issue. Which you say is wrong when I say it, and right when you say it. Hypocritical.
You're talking about my ability, another thing you are mysteriously expert on, even though I didn't  want my ability to have anything to do with the conversation, which you knew about. Just to debate something I don't care to debate.
And now you're revealing what I confided in you, a moderator, as a secret. Again, just to argue something I don't care to argue, and in many cases, don't dispute.
Why?


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Is a sidekick not a sidekick when you use your heel? Lots of people use their heel.
> Whatever it is, it serves me well.




Well, to be honest apart from you I've never seen or even heard of anyone doing a 'side kick' with the heel. I am actually having trouble imagining it which might be me but I'm thinking probably not.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Apr 8, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Ok. Fine. For the sake of argument, I can give you that kicking with the arch is inferior to kicking with the blade for creating impact, and would be the wrong choice to achieve that goal.
> It doesn't matter for me though, if it's wrong or right. If I kick something with the blade of my foot, I will hurt the bones in my foot. Maybe it's the way the bones in my foot are aligned or the bones in my foot are unusually fragile. I don't rightly know.
> 
> If I kick something, barefoot, with the blade of my foot, I have a high chance of hurting it. There is no debating that point. It is the way it is. If that gimps my sidekicks, well... I'll just have to live with that. If I have to kick "wrong", to avoid that, I will.



OK, I think maybe we are thinking of different terms to describe parts of the foot.  When you say blade, are you referring to the outer side part of the foot?  Does the arch describe the curved top part of the foot between the leg and the toes, or do you differentiate between top and bottom of the arch?

And while we are at it, perhaps you could define what you mean by a side kick.  Especially in light of Tez3' s comment she can't conceive of a sidekick striking with the heel.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> How does the arch take power out of a sidekick? or perhaps more importantly, how does one deliver a sidekick with the arch.  Normally I think of a sidekick as coming up and moving straight forward .  The arch can't come into play mechanically.  Now a snap kick up into the crotch can be.  A kick from the rear leg to the legs, waist or head where the leg is snapped, can be.  But what I usually mean when I say sidekick, just can't be done that way.  Or maybe there is a sidekick I don't know about.



I use it as a general term. Any kick that creates force by way of straight extension from the side of your hip I consider a sidekick, whether you kick with the heel, arch, blade, ball, or even toe, and regardless of the direction it comes from. The effectiveness of each is... well, some are more preferable than others.

In my experience, when I have a shoe that does too much arch correcting, it takes power out of it the kick with the heel or arch. It makes the surface of your foot more round, and the material is gives more than your foot. For most shoes, it just increases the surface area of the kick, so it has less force in a concentrated area. At the very worst, it puts so much soft padding between your foot and the target that it's little better than smacking them with a pillow.
You can't use the arch of your foot for a side kick? I wouldn't particularly recommend it, but it's not hard to do.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 8, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> .......really?
> 
> Clearly, I died and you became the expert on my body.



Well, I do have a better than average understanding of human physiology. And I've spent an awful lot of time being taught how to kick properly in the years since my first lesson (1969).



Orange Lightning said:


> My feet hurt just walking sometimes. I've hurt my feet many times in totally unrelated things.



Poor baby. I'm sorry to hear that. Lots of people have sore feet. Including a number of our students.
They've all managed to learn how to kick properly, without pain.



Orange Lightning said:


> I do all my sidekicks with my heel, so it isn't an issue.



Then why did you say you were doing them with the arch, and that doing so was taking the power out of the kick?
Did you forget that you'd said that?



Orange Lightning said:


> Which you say is wrong when I say it, and right when you say it.



Not at all. When you say you do sidekicks with the arch, I'll say that's wrong. Because it is.

Do you usually have difficulty remembering what you've posted?



Orange Lightning said:


> Hypocritical.



Just an FYI... personal attacks are against the rules here.



Orange Lightning said:


> You're talking about my ability,



No, I'm talking about what you've posted. You know... where you said you were doing weak sidekicks with the arch of the foot. A kick that is incorrect.



Orange Lightning said:


> another thing you are mysteriously expert on, even though I didn't  want my ability to have anything to do with the conversation, which you knew about. Just to debate something I don't care to debate.



I don't know anything about your ability. I do know that you're doing the kick wrong. That's what I've commented on.



Orange Lightning said:


> And now you're revealing what I confided in you, a moderator, as a secret. Again, just to argue something I don't care to argue, and in many cases, don't dispute.
> Why?



Here's a free clue. It's obvious to anybody with any real degree of training that you haven't had any, or if you have, it's of very poor quality. Otherwise, you wouldn't be trying to find a way to do an effective sidekick with the arch of the foot.
All they have to do is read your posts.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> OK, I think maybe we are thinking of different terms to describe parts of the foot.  When you say blade, are you referring to the outer side part of the foot?  Does the arch describe the curved top part of the foot between the leg and the toes, or do you differentiate between top and bottom of the arch?



Blade refers space between your pinky toe and your heel. The outside of your foot. Arch refers to the space between the front of your foot (the ball) and the heel. On the bottom of your foot.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 8, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> How does the arch take power out of a sidekick? or perhaps more importantly, how does one deliver a sidekick with the arch.  Normally I think of a sidekick as coming up and moving straight forward .  The arch can't come into play mechanically.  Now a snap kick up into the crotch can be.  A kick from the rear leg to the legs, waist or head where the leg is snapped, can be.  But what I usually mean when I say sidekick, just can't be done that way.  Or maybe there is a sidekick I don't know about.



The arch of the foot is the curve in the bottom. An incorrectly done sidekick can impact on the toes, the ball of the foot, or even the arch. Technically, the top of the arch is called the instep.



Tez3 said:


> Well, to be honest apart from you I've never seen or even heard of anyone doing a 'side kick' with the heel. I am actually having trouble imagining it which might be me but I'm thinking probably not.



It's actually quite common. The striking surface is the bottom of the heel. This is easier to learn and requires less conditioning than striking with the blade of the foot, which is why it's commonly taught to beginners.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Apr 8, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> The arch of the foot is the curve in the bottom. An incorrectly done sidekick can impact on the toes, the ball of the foot, or even the arch. Technically, the top of the arch is called the instep.



Thanks for that correction.  I have usually referred to the top and bottom portions of the arch.  My bad.



Dirty Dog said:


> It's actually quite common. The striking surface is the bottom of the heel. This is easier to learn and requires less conditioning than striking with the blade of the foot, which is why it's commonly taught to beginners.



I guess we'll have to wait for Tez3 to clarify what she meant, possible any kick to the side of the opponent?  But you know how those on the other side of the pond massacre the King's English.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 8, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> Thanks for that correction.  I have usually referred to the top and bottom portions of the arch.  My bad.



You're not wrong. The arch is the curve in the center of the foot made up of the tarsal and metatarsal bones. Instep is just a way of saying "top of the arch" in less words.


But it's the QUEEN's English...


----------



## oftheherd1 (Apr 8, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're not wrong. The arch is the curve in the center of the foot made up of the tarsal and metatarsal bones. Instep is just a way of saying "top of the arch" in less words.



Thanks.  Tarsal, metatarsal?  Oh wow I love it when you talk dirty like that.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.  I once took 3 semesters of Anatomy and Physiology with the idea that I would memorize all the bones and could impress pathologists I sometimes worked with.  Can you imagine how surprised I was when I learned our professor was a blood guy, and only taught anatomy as it related to physiology.  But in the long run, I learned so much more that way.



Dirty Dog said:


> But it's the QUEEN's English...



Oops!  I guess I've been watching too many movies from ancient times.  I should have known better.  (sigh)

I really should have known better, I did watch her coronation of TV, along with much of the rest of the world.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's actually quite common. The striking surface is the bottom of the heel. This is easier to learn and requires less conditioning than striking with the blade of the foot, which is why it's commonly taught to beginners.




Nope, never heard of it. We don't teach beginners easy ways they then have to change, we start right as we mean to go on. Side kick or Sokuto Yokogeri  (_soku _= foot, _to _= knife,  _yoko_= side, _geri_ =kick) so the 'knife' part is the side of the foot not the heel.

No idea what you mean when you say you don't know what I mean, it's obvious.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, I do have a better than average understanding of human physiology. And I've spent an awful lot of time being taught how to kick properly in the years since my first lesson (1969).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The point of saying my feet hurt was only to say that I've hurt my feet doing unrelated things, and the results of the injuries makes me avoid using the blade of my foot.

I said that having too much arch correction reduces the effectiveness of sidekicks. Especially if you land with your arch. I've said multiple times that I aim with my heel and sometimes it lands with my arch, because my timing or aim was off.

That wasn't a personal attack. I was saying you were telling me I'm wrong, and proving it by saying the same thing I did.
This is probably just an interpretation error between one of us. I was referring to me saying that I do sidekicks with my heel, you telling me I'm wrong (for doing sidekicks with my *arch*) and then saying you should do side kicks with your heel or blade.
By the way, how is this not a personal attack? You only brought this up to argue with me about self training, knowing I didn't want to discuss it.

The part where you talk about my ability.
"In a school, we'd make sure you were doing the kick right. On your own, you've gone from a poorly executed (and hence painful) sidekick to a completely wrong (and hence ineffective) sidekick."

You seem to think I do sidekicks with my arch. I don't. I use my heel. If I mess it up, it lands on my arch. It isn't that big of a deal. It's just less effective than it would have been.


"Here's a free clue. It's obvious to anybody with any real degree of training that you haven't had any, or if you have, it's of very poor quality. Otherwise, you wouldn't be trying to find a way to do an effective sidekick with the arch of the foot.
All they have to do is read your posts"

How do you define a personal attack? That sounds like one. If you define it as name calling, then I think "poor baby" is name calling. 
I'm not "trying to find an effective way to do a side kick with my arch of my foot".
It doesn't it matter to me whether or not it's apparent that I'm a self trainer.  I just don't want discuss it, because  that information makes threads devolve into arguments about inferiority. Which is exactly what you have deliberately done with that information. It's a pointless debate. We are not going to change each others opinion's on the topic.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> I really should have known better, I did watch her coronation of TV, along with much of the rest of the world.



I didn't, I was a few months off being born.


----------



## elder999 (Apr 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Nope, never heard of it. We don't teach beginners easy ways they then have to change, we start right as we mean to go on. Side kick or Sokuto Yokogeri  (_soku _= foot, _to _= knife,  _yoko_= side, _geri_ =kick) so the 'knife' part is the side of the foot not the heel.
> 
> No idea what you mean when you say you don't know what I mean, it's obvious.



There are two parts of the foot that can make contact with _yoko geri_, the blade AND the heel.]

From a strictly engineering standpoint, the heel is the best point of contact for bare feet, for proper hip rotation, for alignment of contact with movement of thrust, and for the foot's mechanical stability.

If you're wearing sturdy shoes, though, from a self-defense standpoint (and why else would I be kicking someone with Redwings on? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)  the edge of the foot is an excellent point to make contact with the knee or shin, scrape down the shin and stomp on the instep as an entry.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2015)

elder999 said:


> There are two parts of the foot that can make contact with _yoko geri_, the blade AND the heel.]
> 
> From a strictly engineering standpoint, the heel is the best point of contact for bare feet, for proper hip rotation, for alignment of contact with movement of thrust, and for the foot's mechanical stability.
> 
> ...




Mmm, the way we do it, and I have just endured strange looks from the cat from trying it, means that if you strike with heel you will hurt your knee. We straighten the leg, and bring the big toe up when angling the foot to hit with the 'blade' of the foot. It may be the way we do it but it's very hard to use the heel, however on a front kick I do use the heel to strike. 

Redwings here is a horse sanctuary lol!


----------



## elder999 (Apr 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Mmm, the way we do it, and I have just endured strange looks from the cat from trying it, means that if you strike with heel you will hurt your knee. We straighten the leg, and bring the big toe up when angling the foot to hit with the 'blade' of the foot. It may be the way we do it but it's very hard to use the heel, however on a front kick I do use the heel to strike.
> 
> Redwings here is a horse sanctuary lol!



Just raise draw all the toes up toward you, and put the heel forward, no ankle rotation (angling) and the heel is at the end of the leg. If you've been doing side kicks with the blade of the foot, this way should be easy to try.

This isn't the best, but here:



 



Yeah,, over here, Redwings are a hockey team, and....._something els_e as well...., if you're a biker,
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




but I'm talking about these:




in size 15....that's 14 in the U.K., or 49 1/2 in the rest of the EU.

Imagine a steel toed pair of those heading for your mushy parts....


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2015)

14, good grief that's enormous! I mean really really enormous!  They look like Doc Martens', always wore their shoes for work, it's the UK police officer's favourite shoe and boot (the Air Wear ones). The high boots are the Skinhead's favourite.

One of the reasons I can't do the sidekick well is that my poor broken so many times toes ( I know, poor baby, lol) are quite stiff now and I can't get that really nice position. where the big toe locks the knee I don't really 'do' side kicks' now anyway, much prefer my low MT roundhouse ( if you can get the liver it's sweet, well, not for the recipient of course >evil laugh<), the Wado front, back, hook etc etc. I just don't see the point of getting hurt trying to do one kick, there's so many more to do. If through injury you _can't_ do something, _don't _do it rather than not doing it properly and hurting yourself all over again.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> 14, good grief that's enormous! I mean really really enormous!  They look like Doc Martens', always wore their shoes for work, it's the UK police officer's favourite shoe and boot (the Air Wear ones). The high boots are the Skinhead's favourite.
> 
> One of the reasons I can't do the sidekick well is that my poor broken so many times toes ( I know, poor baby, lol) are quite stiff now and I can't get that really nice position. where the big toe locks the knee I don't really 'do' side kicks' now anyway, much prefer my low MT roundhouse ( if you can get the liver it's sweet, well, not for the recipient of course >evil laugh<), the Wado front, back, hook etc etc. I just don't see the point of getting hurt trying to do one kick, there's so many more to do. If through injury you _can't_ do something, _don't _do it rather than not doing it properly and hurting yourself all over again.


Surely you mean, side kicks to the front, and not kicks to the side, where you just pick up your leg and stomp at an angle.


----------



## elder999 (Apr 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> 14, good grief that's enormous! I mean really really enormous! .



Yeah, I used to hear that a lot.

You know what they say: _ Big feet_..........*big shoes!*


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 8, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Yeah, I used to hear that a lot.
> 
> You know what they say: _ Big feet_..........*big shoes!*


Also, when I am buying a size 14 at the shoe store, I get what they give me and like it, even if I don't like it.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Sis theely you mean, side kicks to the front, and not kicks to the side, where you just pick up your leg and stomp at an angle.



Side kicks are kicks done with the side of the foot, ie the blade or the bit that runs from the little toe to the ankle. The foot is angled to strike with that part of the foot with the sole of the foot facing down. I don't know of any other type of side kick. I've already given you the Japanese name for it so look it up.


----------



## seasoned (Apr 8, 2015)

The more the big toe is pulled back toward your body the more heel that hits first. The heel is in line with the leg which transfers the shock of the hit back through the hip which breaks many ribs.

This is me of course in another life time era.........


----------



## elder999 (Apr 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Side kicks are kicks done with the side of the foot, ie the blade or the bit that runs from the little toe to the ankle. The foot is angled to strike with that part of the foot with the sole of the foot facing down. I don't know of any other type of side kick. I've already given you the Japanese name for it so look it up.



Nope..ya kinda got that twisted in specificity, Irene.

Side kick=_yoko geri_

Blade edge side kick=_sokuto yoko geri_, or _ashi getana yoko geri_

Heel side kick=_kakato yoko geri_

Both are _yoko geri_, side kick, and the motion of the leg (you know, _the kick_ ) is essentially the same, but the part of the foot that makes contact is different.


----------



## elder999 (Apr 8, 2015)

Izzat you, Wes? Cool!


----------



## K-man (Apr 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> If I can't kick because of the shoes I'm wearing I have plenty of other options, I don't kick high  and I use the bottom of my shin to kick anyway so shoes for kicking doesn't concern me at all.


Pretty much any form of circular kick I would use and pretty much the only one I teach now is using the shin. It gives margin for error and is much more likely to destroy a knee. We don't use any high kicks also.



Tez3 said:


> Sidekicks are definitely not 'my' kick, I've never been able to get great height or power into them in many years so quite simply I don't do them. I don't need them for grading and I manage fine without them so rather than do them incorrectly or hesitate about doing them, hesitation often being fatal, I simply don't do them. Done well they are a brilliant kick, I don't do them well so it's a so so kick. I imagine others have various techniques that they don't use so it's not a tragedy if you don't do something and concentrate on things you do well so rather than worry about what shoes to wear, don't do sidekicks. Simples.


The only time I would use a side kick would be against multiple attackers. Even then I would be more inclined to use a back kick. Kansetsu geri is fine but high kicks to the side are too easy to catch.



Tez3 said:


> Well, to be honest apart from you I've never seen or even heard of anyone doing a 'side kick' with the heel. I am actually having trouble imagining it which might be me but I'm thinking probably not.


We would make a blade with the big toe up. Obviously with a shoe that is not possible so the structure of the kick is not the same. I think in that case a thrust with the heel makes more sense and it may be the reason *Orange Lightning *is talking about using the arch and losing power. Without the correct structure the foot is not going to be rigid.


Tez3 said:


> I don't really 'do' side kicks' now anyway, much prefer my low MT roundhouse ( if you can get the liver it's sweet, well, not for the recipient of course >evil laugh<), the Wado front, back, hook etc etc. I just don't see the point of getting hurt trying to do one kick, there's so many more to do. If through injury you _can't_ do something, _don't _do it rather than not doing it properly and hurting yourself all over again.


I think we lose some options as we get older and less flexible. I was never a fan of high kicks and now I just couldn't deliver one with much power anyway, but if my lower roundhouse to the thigh, using the shin, connects ... .


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Side kicks are kicks done with the side of the foot, ie the blade or the bit that runs from the little toe to the ankle. The foot is angled to strike with that part of the foot with the sole of the foot facing down. I don't know of any other type of side kick. I've already given you the Japanese name for it so look it up.


No thanks.


----------



## K-man (Apr 8, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> But you know how those on the other side of the pond massacre the King's English.


Hmm! Well we can debate that point. The King's English you guys learned died out with good King George 3 back in the 1800s. 



Dirty Dog said:


> But it's the QUEEN's English...


Nowadays it *is* the Queen's English but I'm not sure many people in America actually speak it.


----------



## seasoned (Apr 8, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Izzat you, Wes? Cool!


40 years ago my friend. Pork chop sideburns and all..... The way it goes, the higher the kick the least effort taking out ribs. 


Now a days I just focus on knees and ankles.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I borrowed this little guy from you. No image infringement right....


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 8, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Forgot the LMAO smiley, sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Probably shouldn't know this (or at least admit to knowing)... but yeah, they do... 





> If you know where to look.but I've had a little experience helping women figure out how to move in them (short answer: get them off as soon as possible...about the only shoe I'd say this for)......when people are getting ready for brown belt, we put together a "street-clothes" kit for them, for street-clothes workouts, and it usually includes high-heels for the women, unless they claim to NEVER wear them.....for men it includes sneakers, workboots, and inexpensive dress-shoes...in some cases, like the sneaker, they are neither weapon nor hindrance-though you do have to work on orienting your foot properly, as they are a little different than barefoot. A good pair of Redwings, though, make a helluva missile out of each foot, and don't slow my kicks enough to make any difference, especially at self-defense height....


I like your idea of putting together a street clothes kit.  I periodically do classes in street clothes.  That also leads to one of the first things I ask when someone is trying to sell me on a police DT package.  What are they wearing?  If they're not willing to show me that their stuff works in a uniform, with boots, a full gunbelt (not a token belt with a gun, but a realistically kitted out bat belt), and body armor...  Then their stuff doesn't really work.


----------



## elder999 (Apr 8, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> That also leads to one of the first things I ask when someone is trying to sell me on a police DT package.  What are they wearing?  If they're not willing to show me that their stuff works in a uniform, with boots, a full gunbelt (not a token belt with a gun, but a realistically kitted out bat belt), and body armor...  Then their stuff doesn't really work.



And, with a few minor exceptions, I don't instruct DT without uniform kit and duty belt. In fact, it's part of the street clothes kit for all my cop students.


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Well, to be honest apart from you I've never seen or even heard of anyone doing a 'side kick' with the heel. I am actually having trouble imagining it which might be me but I'm thinking probably not.


We teach 3 primary striking surfaces for the side kick:  The blade/outside edge of the foot, the outside edge of the heel (position the same as the blade, but you're deliberately and consciously using the heel), and the bottom/flat of the heel.  The last is my general preference, incidentally...


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Side kicks are kicks done with the side of the foot, ie the blade or the bit that runs from the little toe to the ankle. The foot is angled to strike with that part of the foot with the sole of the foot facing down. I don't know of any other type of side kick. I've already given you the Japanese name for it so look it up.


Now, see, I'd define a side kick as a kick done in a direction that's parallel to the hips; the side.  Front kicks go... to the front!  Back kicks go, of all the wild and crazy places, to the rear!  Then there are half-back kicks, and front-side kicks, when you want to get tricky.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 8, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Yeah, I used to hear that a lot.
> 
> You know what they say: _ Big feet_..........*big shoes!*





jks9199 said:


> Now, see, I'd define a side kick as a kick done in a direction that's parallel to the hips; the side.  Front kicks go... to the front!  Back kicks go, of all the wild and crazy places, to the rear!  Then there are half-back kicks, and front-side kicks, when you want to get tricky.



I have a weird side kick I use occasionally. Off my left foot, it starts from the right, almost like you're preparing for a hook, but actually lets you shoot immediately into a side kick.
Very occasionally though. It's really telegraphed compared to the normal sidekick. It's sort of like a feint from a hook to a side kick, but as one fluid movement. I don't know how I would define it.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Nope..ya kinda got that twisted in specificity, Irene.
> 
> Side kick=_yoko geri_
> 
> ...




I didn't get it twisted at all. You'd better look at Shingo Ohgami if you think it is. In his book 'Introduction to Karate', which has all the Wado techniques in it specifically says _'Sokuto Yokogeri ( soku=foot, to= knife, geri=side, because the side of the foot (Sokuto) is used as a weapon and the kick is performed sideward. Lift your knee as in Maegeri and then stretch your leg, opening your groin to the side. It is necessary to be flexible especially in the groin to be able to perform this kick well"_
It then continues with a series of photos showing exactly what it means and it is that which we train. We train with the foot more sidewards on than in your photograph. It's just what we do. If you think it wrong you had better take it up with the author plus all our instructors.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2015)

the best I could do with a scan of the page.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 9, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Clearly, I died and you became the expert on my body.



Why would you have to die for him to be an expert on your body? 



Orange Lightning said:


> You seem to think I do sidekicks with my arch. I don't. I use my heel. If I mess it up, it lands on my arch. It isn't that big of a deal. It's just less effective than it would have been



Then I would suggest that you either get more skilled with your side kick with your heel or use a different kick if that one is causing you pain.


----------



## Buka (Apr 9, 2015)

seasoned said:


> View attachment 19254
> 
> The more the big toe is pulled back toward your body the more heel that hits first. The heel is in line with the leg which transfers the shock of the hit back through the hip which breaks many ribs.
> 
> This is me of course in another life time era.........



I'm picturing you, dude, the hair and the sidekick with a pair of Wing Tips on...

That's just awesome!


----------



## Danny T (Apr 9, 2015)

Not wanting to get into a huge debate about the differences in side kicks I'll state that in the wing chun training I have had the wang gerk or side kick has several variations and is performed with the heel, the blade of the foot, the arch, or the ball of the foot all depending upon the target and what one is performing the kick for. Seldom is the kick above the opponent's hip though it can be. For instance look a my profile picture and you will see a variation of the side kick we use where I am presenting the arch of my foot on the mook jong. 

The differences are based upon what target is being attacked, what range is the target, and what is the result I want from the kick.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 9, 2015)

Danny T said:


> I have had the *wang gerk*



Is that a euphemism?


----------



## elder999 (Apr 9, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I didn't get it twisted at all. You'd better look at Shingo Ohgami if you think it is. In his book 'Introduction to Karate', which has all the Wado techniques in it specifically says _'Sokuto Yokogeri ( soku=foot, to= knife, geri=side, because the side of the foot (Sokuto) is used as a weapon and the kick is performed sideward. Lift your knee as in Maegeri and then stretch your leg, opening your groin to the side. It is necessary to be flexible especially in the groin to be able to perform this kick well"_
> It then continues with a series of photos showing exactly what it means and it is that which we train. We train with the foot more sidewards on than in your photograph. It's just what we do. If you think it wrong you had better take it up with the author plus all our instructors.




Still hung up in specificity, Tez.

"Wado" is not all _karate_, and karate isn't even the beginning or end for the side kick.  Just because, for whatever reasons, Wado's creator chose to keep only the foot-blade side kick, doesn't mean that it's all there is......just, apparently, that it's all there is for you....


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 9, 2015)

Buka said:


> I'm picturing you, dude, the hair and the sidekick with a pair of Wing Tips on...
> 
> That's just awesome!



And a leisure suit with the shirt open to the navel with 128lbs of gold chains.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Still hung up in specificity, Tez.
> 
> "Wado" is not all _karate_, and karate isn't even the beginning or end for the side kick.  Just because, for whatever reasons, Wado's creator chose to keep only the foot-blade side kick, doesn't mean that it's all there is......just, apparently, that it's all there is for you....




All along I have said that is the way we in Wado do it, not that it's the way it's done in ALL karate or all styles, I said I haven't seen it done any other way ( which I haven't), I did NOT say that's the only way to do it. of course it's specific, that's why I keep saying that's how we do in in Wado, I don't say that's how we do it in all striking arts. It's also the way we do it in the TSD we do but that's only two arts. I'm not a dilettante going around trying all arts and pontificating on them, I am style specific and if you read my posts I say so. So really you are being a tad obvious here.


----------



## geezer (Apr 9, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> All along I have said that is the way we in Wado do it, not that it's the way it's done in ALL karate or all styles, *I said I haven't seen it done any other way...*


 
_Tez! _ The great thing about these forums is that even seasoned Martial Artists get exposed to new things. Here's a Wing Chun stomping side-kick striking with the heel or sole of the foot. Since it's normally applied to low targets like knees, shins and even ankles, the stomping action like that used in breaking kindling, makes sense. Watch the clip below from about 1:00 to 1:40. (the freeze-frame immediately visible below is not a WC side kick but a "slant-thrust kick" ...something different).





[/QUOTE]


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2015)

_"Tez! _ The great thing about these forums is that even seasoned Martial Artists get exposed to new things."

Geezer, that was really my point, I was saying I hadn't seen it before which means I'm sayingI don't know anything about it because I hadn't seen it before so can't comment on the heel/arch of foot argument! I never imagine that what I've seen and know is all there is to see and know, I was merely trying to explain how I've been taught, what we do in our style and how it works. The way we do it means that the side of the foot not the heel hits your opponent , I would think with a bit of twisting so that the sole of the foot isn't facing the ground you can hit with the heel though I can't imagine wanting to hit with the arch of your foot. I also can't imagine messing around with a kick that is painful to do, much better not to do it.
However making your own kicks up and doing them in a haphazard way is really not to be recommended, you end up kicking with the wrong part of your foot which obviously hurts. Pick a known type of kick and get an instructor to teach you how to do it.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Apr 9, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> _"Tez! _ The great thing about these forums is that even seasoned Martial Artists get exposed to new things."
> 
> Geezer, that was really my point, I was saying I hadn't seen it before which means I'm sayingI don't know anything about it because I hadn't seen it before so can't comment on the heel/arch of foot argument! I never imagine that what I've seen and know is all there is to see and know, I was merely trying to explain how I've been taught, what we do in our style and how it works. The way we do it means that the side of the foot not the heel hits your opponent , I would think with a bit of twisting so that the sole of the foot isn't facing the ground you can hit with the heel though I can't imagine wanting to hit with the arch of your foot. I also can't imagine messing around with a kick that is painful to do, much better not to do it.
> However making your own kicks up and doing them in a haphazard way is really not to be recommended, you end up kicking with the wrong part of your foot which obviously hurts. Pick a known type of kick and get an instructor to teach you how to do it.


So, your system doesn't have any techs where you cover passed them and stomp to the side en-passant? Interesting. That is one of our beginning tech sequences.


----------



## elder999 (Apr 9, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> All along I have said that is the way we in Wado do it, not that it's the way it's done in ALL karate or all styles, I said I haven't seen it done any other way ( which I haven't), I did NOT say that's the only way to do it. of course it's specific, that's why I keep saying that's how we do in in Wado, I don't say that's how we do it in all striking arts. It's also the way we do it in the TSD we do but that's only two arts. I'm not a dilettante going around trying all arts and pontificating on them, I am style specific and if you read my posts I say so. So really you are being a tad obvious here.



That may be what you meant, Irene, but it's *not* what you said:



Tez3 said:


> Side kicks are kicks done with the side of the foot, ie the blade or the bit that runs from the little toe to the ankle. The foot is angled to strike with that part of the foot with the sole of the foot facing down. I don't know of any other type of side kick. *I've already given you the Japanese name for it so look it up.*



No worries though-now you know. Try the heel-not that big an adjustment, and works nicely......


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2015)

elder999 said:


> That may be what you meant, Irene, but it's *not* what you said:



No, that was a _specific_ answer to a _specific _person who wanted a _specific_ answer. It was not a catch all answer to the OP.

I don't do side kicks anymore, prefer something I can do easily and without having to think about it that doesn't cost me pain.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> So, your system doesn't have any techs where you cover passed them and stomp to the side en-passant? Interesting. That is one of our beginning tech sequences.




We have Fumikomi, a stamping kick which can be done as Yoko Fumikomi (sideward)


----------



## seasoned (Apr 9, 2015)

Buka said:


> I'm picturing you, dude, the hair and the sidekick with a pair of Wing Tips on...
> 
> That's just awesome!





Dirty Dog said:


> And a leisure suit with the shirt open to the navel with 128lbs of gold chains.



Guys you're killing me, I laughed so hard I think I got a hernia.......


----------



## Buka (Apr 9, 2015)

seasoned said:


> Guys you're killing me, I laughed so hard I think I got a hernia.......



Let's not forget something, that is one sweet *** sidekick. Just saying.


----------



## MJS (Apr 13, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> I've been mulling this one over for years, and I still can't decide.
> Obviously, it depends on the type of shoe. Anyway, here are my thoughts.
> 
> Shoes slow down your kicks. No two ways about it. All kicks become slower, and aside from simply having less impact or missing entirely, it increases the chance that your kick can be caught.
> ...



In some schools that I trained at, I wore wrestling shoes.  My current dojo, is very traditional, so no shoes allowed.  However, I do enjoy training in every day clothing.  Usually a big difference between kicking in a gi while barefoot, and wearing jeans and sneakers.  Considering that everyone wears shoes, I think it'd be a very good idea to get used to functioning in them.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 13, 2015)

MJS said:


> However, I do enjoy training in every day clothing.



I do but don't very often as training in sussies and stockings is uncomfortable. Non Brits can look that up as I'm not explaining ROFLMAO.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 13, 2015)

MJS said:


> In some schools that I trained at, I wore wrestling shoes.  My current dojo, is very traditional, so no shoes allowed.  However, I do enjoy training in every day clothing.  Usually a big difference between kicking in a gi while barefoot, and wearing jeans and sneakers.  Considering that everyone wears shoes, I think it'd be a very good idea to get used to functioning in them.



Big difference indeed. I used to avoid wearing shoes during training if I could because it felt like it made everything a little clumsier. In retrospect, I think it's easier to learn how to kick with no shoes. Just because there isn't any weight on your foot, so you can control it better. 
On the other hand of that, having a shoes makes it easier kick with less worry about hurting my foot somehow. Explicitly for training though. I'm obviously going to be wearing shoes if there was ever an actual altercation.  I'm quicker and happier barefoot though.


----------



## K-man (Apr 13, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I do but don't very often as training in sussies and stockings is uncomfortable. Non Brits can look that up as I'm not explaining ROFLMAO.


OMG! My imagination is in overdrive, high heels and crop too, I should think. A new angle on weapon training!


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 18, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Big difference indeed. I used to avoid wearing shoes during training if I could because it felt like it made everything a little clumsier. In retrospect, I think it's easier to learn how to kick with no shoes. Just because there isn't any weight on your foot, so you can control it better.
> On the other hand of that, having a shoes makes it easier kick with less worry about hurting my foot somehow. Explicitly for training though. I'm obviously going to be wearing shoes if there was ever an actual altercation.  I'm quicker and happier barefoot though.



Spring is finally starting to take full stride where I live. Today was the first day I was able to do any serious kicking barefoot outside. I've been kicking forcefully with shoes almost exclusively for the past half year or so. Outside of the kicking thing, it felt _awesome._ I was in a great mood for the whole day.  It's not just me either. Apparently, there is real science to it, and it's called _grounding_. It has to do with electrons from the earth going in your feet.

Why Does Walking Barefoot on the Earth Make You Feel Better Your Olive Branch News - yobo

Just google barefoot static for more links on that. 

It's possible that I just forgot how good it felt to kick barefoot. If that isn't the case, I must say that wearing shoes all that time has drastically increased my kicking speed and power while barefoot. Footwork is faster too. *My* shoes slightly pad almost all of my kicks except my hook kick, but it does need more space do generate momentum in due to a long heel. 
Because it doesn't really alter the shape of the impact surface of my foot, I think I can kick better with some tough slippers than shoes. Very little arch correction and next to no soft material between my hard heel and my target. It's a reliable enough slipper that it can be worn out and about seriously. Without thinking, "if only I had shoes." Plus, they are more socially exceptable and generally handy  than those awesome shoes that look like feet. 

I wonder if there are sandals that would be any good for kicking? I doubt it, but I wonder.

Here's a shoe that lacks most of the qualities that deflate kicks. Very little material between the foot and ground, small heel, and doesn't change the shape of the foot much. Very little arch correction too. "Taekwondo" shoes, apparently. 

Amazon.com adidas Taekwondo Adilux Shoes Shoes

Soccer shoes seem alright too. The spikes instead of just the flat surface would make the surface area of impact smaller,which is definitely better than just flat padding. I would have to hope their hard enough though.


----------



## K-man (Apr 18, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Apparently, there is real science to it, and it's called _grounding_. It has to do with electrons from the earth going in your feet.
> 
> Why Does Walking Barefoot on the Earth Make You Feel Better Your Olive Branch News - yobo
> 
> Just google barefoot static for more links on that.


You'll forgive me if I call BS on this one. If there is real science to it perhaps you could reference the real science instead of a blog.


----------



## Buka (Apr 18, 2015)

Shoes smoose, barefoot, nylons, spikes or a bunny suit like Ralphy in _A Christmas Story_, a fight's a fight.


----------



## BMhadoken (Apr 19, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Spring is finally starting to take full stride where I live. Today was the first day I was able to do any serious kicking barefoot outside. I've been kicking forcefully with shoes almost exclusively for the past half year or so. Outside of the kicking thing, it felt _awesome._ I was in a great mood for the whole day.  It's not just me either. Apparently, there is real science to it, and it's called _grounding_. It has to do with electrons from the earth going in your feet.
> 
> Why Does Walking Barefoot on the Earth Make You Feel Better Your Olive Branch News - yobo
> 
> ...



I thought I should read the entire link before I commented, and I tried. God help me I tried. But I think I made it 1/3 through before my Palm smashed through my face and out the other side. Reading this is a lot like listening to someone explain reflexology or other "holistic" healing. I must kindly ask the author, "show your work."


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 19, 2015)

BMhadoken said:


> I thought I should read the entire link before I commented, and I tried. God help me I tried. But I think I made it 1/3 through before my Palm smashed through my face and out the other side. Reading this is a lot like listening to someone explain reflexology or other "holistic" healing. I must kindly ask the author, "show your work."




My husband has now been diagnosed with diabetes and has been told quite explicitly and forcefully NOT to go barefoot at all now because of the danger of damaging his feet so any article advocating barefootedness should contain a warning. Unlike you I didn't make it through the article, well done on that!


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 19, 2015)

K-man said:


> You'll forgive me if I call BS on this one. If there is real science to it perhaps you could reference the real science instead of a blog.



I can totally understand calling BS on that. xD. Now that you mention it, I'm probably biased to it's legitimacy because I seem to experience the phenomenon. Or it's a placebo effect. 

Anyway, some links. 

Earthing Health Implications of Reconnecting the Human Body to the Earth s Surface Electrons

That's a link to the science by the original authors of the claim.

Earthing Staying Grounded for Health Mark s Daily Apple

Another blog that just discusses it objectively.

More Mercola Misinformation Grounding In Reverse Skeptoid

A blog that says the authors are wrong about several points on electricity.

Scientific Proof Of Earthing Grounding - Balanced By Earth

A bunch of videos of people discussing it that I haven't watched because I can't waste the bandwidth. A few of them look like they try to actually measure the static change in your body using multimeters.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 19, 2015)

BMhadoken said:


> I thought I should read the entire link before I commented, and I tried. God help me I tried. But I think I made it 1/3 through before my Palm smashed through my face and out the other side. Reading this is a lot like listening to someone explain reflexology or other "holistic" healing. I must kindly ask the author, "show your work."



A lot of people on the internet are saying the same thing. I think this link is the most real data we're going to get.

Earthing Health Implications of Reconnecting the Human Body to the Earth s Surface Electrons


----------



## BMhadoken (Apr 19, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> A lot of people on the internet are saying the same thing. I think this link is the most real data we're going to get.
> 
> Earthing Health Implications of Reconnecting the Human Body to the Earth s Surface Electrons


Haven't read it yet, and without getting into any kind of science, a single point of note: Crackpots and con artists most frequently offer cures to things like stress, pain, anxiety, and other conditions and symptoms which A. cannot be observed and measured, and B. are subject to the placebo effect.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 19, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Apparently, there is real science to it, and it's called _grounding_. It has to do with electrons from the earth going in your feet.
> 
> Why Does Walking Barefoot on the Earth Make You Feel Better Your Olive Branch News - yobo
> 
> Just google barefoot static for more links on that.



That is about as medically effective as Homeopathy, i.e. not.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 19, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> That is about as medically effective as Homeopathy, i.e. not.



xD Kind of cracks me up that this is the new focus. 

I mispoke when I said there was real science to it. I don't know how scientifically valid it is or isn't. I've barely done research on it. I just tossed it in as a sidenote. Seems to have a positive effect for my mood and energy, although I don't know of it's because of "grounding". There are other variables involved. Could just be placebo. I wouldn't discount it too quickly, but I don't have enough knowledge on it or the science involved to debate on the subject. I would be interested to see an informed debate on it from the knowledgeable members here.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 19, 2015)

Going barefoot is good for you but not in any mystical way.
Is Going Barefoot Good for You - HealthStatus


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 20, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Going barefoot is good for you but not in any mystical way.
> Is Going Barefoot Good for You - HealthStatus



Thanks but, I know this already. Going barefoot is awesome. Shoes....not a big fan. But I have to wear them all the time anyway, so the midas well be optimized.

Digression! 
To me, it's sort of like buying a good every-day-carry knife. You're going to be carrying it everywhere, probably  for a few years at the least if you don't buy knives all the time. It should be effective, reliable, and not too cumbersome to carry. So I want the best possible shoe for it's "shoe" advantages like protecting your foot from the elements, while emulating barefootedness as closely as possible. The natural shape of the foot is just better for moving around. 

My feet used to be really calloused from walking everywhere barefoot, but college life has turned them back into baby feet.  I walk barefoot around my home and outside with no issues, but not on road anymore. Or at least, not on my broken up crap gravel backroad.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 20, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Thanks but, I know this already.



Good for you  but perhaps not everyone does. Out there for general information and denial of any airy fairy reason for not wearing shoes.

We don't carry knives in the UK unless for specific work purposes, not if we want to stay within the law.


----------



## Buka (Apr 20, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> I can totally understand calling BS on that. xD. Now that you mention it, I'm probably biased to it's legitimacy because I seem to experience the phenomenon. Or it's a placebo effect.
> 
> Anyway, some links.
> 
> ...



To me - I buy in to the whole earth/feet connection.


----------



## BMhadoken (Apr 20, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> We don't carry knives in the UK unless for specific work purposes, not if we want to stay within the law.



That's unfortunate. Gotta love the nanny state. Hell, I never leave the house without a pocket knife. Too useful for everything from screwdriver to fork to cutting my seatbelt after a 70mph triple roll to make sure my friend is still alive.

As for shoes, eh, I usually favor light hiking boots. Good for all terrain, look good with most clothes, comfortable to wear all day, and good Impact protection for most of my foot.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 20, 2015)

BMhadoken said:


> That's unfortunate. Gotta love the nanny state. Hell, I never leave the house without a pocket knife. Too useful for everything from screwdriver to fork to cutting my seatbelt after a 70mph triple roll to make sure my friend is still alive.
> 
> As for shoes, eh, I usually favor light hiking boots. Good for all terrain, look good with most clothes, comfortable to wear all day, and good Impact protection for most of my foot.




Not in the least unfortunate. On the whole it's how we like it, you can carry a knife for legitimate work or leisure activities such as fishing but there is no need to carry a knife for self defence. Many people have knives we just don't carry them gratuitously, it may seem odd to some but we simply don't have as much need as other countries. We aren't perfect but it's the way *we* like it, not the government, the Monarch even, us. So perhaps before deciding we are being nannied you might have a think, the US has it's weapons, which it wants and we don't which is what we want. It's mostly a non issue.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Apr 25, 2015)

Well yes as the OP put it, it depends on the type of shoe. Sneakers are one of the best shoes for kicking and don't really give you much in the way of disadvantages. Wingtips are really good for round kicks where you would be otherwise striking with the balls of your feet since they've got the point in the front, and any kick where you strike with the toes wingtips would be very effective. Construction boots or work boots can add weight and power to your kicks and can be very effective for some kicks, especially if they're steel toed.

Now as for women wearing high heels, I see no advantages and many disadvantages when trying to kick wearing those, except for the downward heel stomp in which they give an obvious advantage.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Apr 25, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> You've stated that you're using the arch of the foot for a sidekick. That is, actually, kicking wrong.



Some styles do teach using the arch of the foot or the entire bottom of the foot as the striking surface for the sidekick when attacking the knee.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some styles do teach using the arch of the foot or the entire bottom of the foot as the striking surface for the sidekick when attacking the knee.



Name them.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Apr 25, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some styles do teach using the arch of the foot or the entire bottom of the foot as the striking surface for the sidekick when attacking the knee.


 
Which ones?


----------



## PhotonGuy (Apr 25, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Name them.



I've never trained in any such style but I've read books where some instructors make that modification in the technique.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've never trained in any such style but I've read books where some instructors make that modification in the technique.




I like fictional books too.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Apr 25, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I like fictional books too.



These weren't fictional books these were books written on factual knowledge. Aside from, "Slow Dance on the Killing Ground" Lenox Cramer doesn't write fiction.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> These weren't fictional books these were books written on factual knowledge. Aside from, "Slow Dance on the Killing Ground" Lenox Cramer doesn't write fiction.




Now that opens up a can of worms doesn't it? I don't think that using that name is going to get you any credit for citing a reliable source.


----------



## elder999 (Apr 25, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Now that opens up a can of worms doesn't it? I don't think that using that name is going to get you any credit for citing a reliable source.



Why? A delusional convicted murderer with a fraudulent martial arts background  is an excellent source for "martial arts," isn't he?


----------



## drop bear (Apr 25, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Name them.



We do that for the knee with the oblique kick and the side kick. 

So you don't slip off.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 25, 2015)




----------



## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2015)

He's not kicking with the arch of the foot though which is what PG said.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 25, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> He's not kicking with the arch of the foot though which is what PG said.



The arch as in basically the middle bit? Yes and no. Sometimes he seems to connect the side kick with the ball which I don't think works at all.

But especially identified the oblique kicks striking area.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 25, 2015)

John jones doing it. You see the side kick in the footage at the start.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2015)

I don't think Jones has an arch, he's the most flat footed person I've seen for a long time!

Still there's a different between someone like him espousing kicking with the arch and taking what Walt  'Lenox Cramer' says as being true. One of my really big hates is people who say they have served in the military when they haven't and if they have, in some desk job, then tell everyone they were a 'warrior and hero' never mind his other crimes.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> John jones doing it. You see the side kick in the footage at the start.



Dam it. We were talking about shoes for an entire post, and now we're back on the kicking thing.

Anyway, I forgot about that sort of kick. I've only ever seen on the Human Weapon Savate episode.






The arch isn't so good for hitting. Flat, lacking in hard surface. Fine for pushing I suppose, but even then it's lesser than the ball of the foot. Although, I consider it better than nothing. IMO, hitting with the arch means you need to work on your accuracy or angle your foot differently. 
In the case of that "oblique kick" it doesn't seem like a bad foot part to use. The leg doesn't have anywhere else to go but the ground, so it will absorb all that push force. Overextending the knee and hurting the muscles that resist.

Point that segues into shoes - I recently tried doing kicks with the blade of my foot while wearing shoes. The shoes that I have change where the blade of my foot is from where it actually is. If I do a side kick with these shoes trying to hit where my blade actually is, the shape of the shoe forces my ankle to bend up or down. Still a big no. Gonna stick to hitting with my heels.

Wingtip shoes look great for kicking. Heels.....ever kick wearing shoes with small heels? It actually makes it easier to kick with the heel. With a hard surface too. Not with that soft foamy stuff on the bottom of normal shoes. Even with round kicks. That would probably break the shoe after a while though. Those thinner high heels though.....eh. Big no. It's hard enough to walk on two legs with those. Standing on one and kicking with the other, it's kind of like asking to fall over. Would probably hurt if it landed. Even then, outside of the kicks that push the heel out, like the sidekick, I think all your other kicks would be reduced too. Footwork would suck.

Weirdly effective slippers! These ones really just change the material of the bottom of your foot and slightly protect them from cold and water. I found that I could kick, basically as if I was barefoot, but with the added benefit of _not being barefoot_. I.E., I can drive, peruse the inventory of walmart, etc. 







By the way, when I originally said that shoes with too much arch correction deflate my side kicks, this is what I was talking about. It all turns into pillows and pushing side kicks with these types shoes.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2015)

Savate is generally practised with shoes on though so kicks will be different from barefooted kicks.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 27, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Savate is generally practised with shoes on though so kicks will be different from barefooted kicks.



Do they? Do they use a particular kind of shoe or is it just any shoes?


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Do they? Do they use a particular kind of shoe or is it just any shoes?


Savate FAQ


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 27, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Savate FAQ



Do you know why the old practitioners of Savate put their hands backward like that?


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 27, 2015)




----------



## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


>




I don't but perhaps because it's easier to balance like that for a photograph that would take a long time to take? I imagine the non kicking guy is holding the kickers leg who is trying to keep his balance. It could be 15 to 20 minutes standing there if not longer.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 27, 2015)

I can't seem to find one now, but I've seen drawings with that hand position with both feet on the ground. I've read that Savate was invented by sailors because the use of the closed fist was illegal, so perhaps it was to make it clear they weren't going to punch them, but they were going to hurt them? Or maybe it was for witnesses?
Maybe it was a balance thing? I remember sticking my hands far back like that when I first started.

.....now that I think about it, it's not so weird. The front hand is still guarding, and the back easily be for balance. I've seen it done in plenty of kicking. Not so much anymore though. However, I'm still only speculating.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 27, 2015)

"It appears that the first rational approach to street kicking commenced around the beginning of the French Revolution. French marines developed Chausson (shoh-sohn) as a gymnastic game of fencing with the feet. The term actually means ‘slipper’ and referred to the sailors’ soft footwear."



HISTORY Bridgeman Savate


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> I can't seem to find one now, but I've seen drawings with that hand position with both feet on the ground. I've read that Savate was invented by sailors because the use of the closed fist was illegal, so perhaps it was to make it clear they weren't going to punch them, but they were going to hurt them? Or maybe it was for witnesses?
> Maybe it was a balance thing? I remember sticking my hands far back like that when I first started.
> 
> .....now that I think about it, it's not so weird. The front hand is still guarding, and the back easily be for balance. I've seen it done in plenty of kicking. Not so much anymore though. However, I'm still only speculating.



On a boat you cant punch or you go bum over. If you kick you can hang on to something when you do it.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Dam it. We were talking about shoes for an entire post, and now we're back on the kicking thing.
> 
> Anyway, I forgot about that sort of kick. I've only ever seen on the Human Weapon Savate episode.
> 
> ...



The arch or kind of the middle of the foot for some stop kicks generally. Used as a block. And the oblique kick.

I side kick with the heel.

There are some weird variations. Pointera in capoeira is done with the toes.

.


----------



## Orange Lightning (Apr 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The arch or kind of the middle of the foot for some stop kicks generally. Used as a block. And the oblique kick.
> 
> I side kick with the heel.
> 
> ...



Somebody on this site posted a link a while ago about really old karate kicks using the toe. Apparently for striking the nerves. The article I read said some "karate expert" once toe kicked a guy in the armpit, and it killed him somehow.

Not the same article, but here's another.

The Old Okinawan Karate Toe Kick karate2sentena4


----------



## Kiki (Sep 19, 2016)

Orange Lightning said:


> Somebody on this site posted a link a while ago about really old karate kicks using the toe. Apparently for striking the nerves. The article I read said some "karate expert" once toe kicked a guy in the armpit, and it killed him somehow.
> 
> Not the same article, but here's another.
> 
> The Old Okinawan Karate Toe Kick karate2sentena4



My sensei's sensei could puncture hitting bags, etc. with his toes.  Obviously that's not as useful nowadays and takes a long time to develop but even the tentative ones my teacher delivered to me hurt like hell.
He had a guy basically dare him to prove they worked and produced a giant bruise on the guy's thigh.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 19, 2016)

For kicking, I don't find shoes to slow me down significantly, and they give some protection to the feet and allow me to kick with my toes.

For general movement, the shoes I wear allow for better traction and therefore quicker movement and direction changes than being barefoot.

For grappling, I find that having shoes one makes some of my guard work a little more awkward. It's sort of like grappling with mittens on. I can do it, but I lose a bit of sensitivity and control. Having shoes on also makes you more vulnerable to leg locks (not that this would be a real concern in street self-defense.)

Overall, I'm about equally comfortable fighting with or without shoes.


----------



## Buka (Sep 19, 2016)

The thing is, we wear shoes (sneakers, whatever) almost every place we go. I don't particularly consider them a weapon, nor a hindrance, they're just shoes. I'd rather have them on than not if I was running, either away from somebody, or towards somebody. As for kicking, they change certain dynamics in more complicated kicks, but if we're speaking of self defense, do you really want to be using complicated kicks?

As for grappling, they can sometimes get in the way, but that same "complicated" dynamic also applies I think. I do like them for closed guard, though. Gives me grip.


----------

