# Matsumura and Itosu Rohai



## TST2703 (Jul 9, 2005)

Hello again!

   I've been doing some more research into Rohai and it's different variations and styles and seemed to have got myself into a muddle.

 -  I have heard that Itosu was one of Matsumura's students;
 -  I have heard that Itosu was also a student of Soken Hohan;
 -  I have heard both Hohan and Itousu being credited for Rohai/Rohai I, II & III.

 Can somebody (anybody?!) help me clear up this lineage?!

 I think all this going round and round in circles is frying my brain ;o)


----------



## Gene Williams (Jul 9, 2005)

There is indeed an Itosu version and  Matsumura version of Rohai. To make matters more confusing, the various Okinawan ryu that do Rohai sometimes do varying versions within their own ryu. In Motobu ha Shito ryu, we do the Itosu Rohai. Rohai Nidan and Sandan were developed later, by whom I am not certain. I hear varying explanations. Some schools do Itosu Rohai as Rohai and then do Matsumura version as Rohai Nidan...or vice versa. Rohai, as found in Nagamine's book, "The Essensce of Okinawan Karate," is a nice version of the kata. Anyway, pick one and stick with it. You'll just confuse yourself and everyone else if you try to do both. I consider Rohai nidan and sandan as unnecessary, but opinions vary.


----------



## TST2703 (Jul 9, 2005)

Hi Gene,

   Thanks for getting back to me so quickly (it's late here in Australia!) and it definately is getting very confusing!

   In another post re:rohai, I was pointed towards five rohai's, the first three of which are:

   1) Matsumura Rohai

  2) Itosu Rohai I,II,III

  3) Shotokan kata "Meikyo" based on Itosu Rohai.



 For Matsumura Rohai, I believe:
 Sakugawa taught Matsumura
 THEN
 Matsumura taught Nabe Matsumura and Itosu
 THEN
 Nabe Matsumura taught Soken Ho han
 AND
 Hohan is credited with introducing three Rohai's
  - Is the Matsumura Rohai one rohai form handed down by Matsumura?
  - If so, what are the Hohan Rohai?!

 For Itosu Rohai, I believe:
 He was a student of Matsumura
 AND
 a student of Hohan?
  - He is also credited with introducing three Roahi's?!

 For Shotokan Rohai (Meikyo), I believe:
 - It is similar to Itosus rohai and generally an 'overview' or 'combination' of the three
 AND
 - It is believed to have been created by Gichin Funakoshi
 AND 
 - It is believed to be based on an ancient Japanese Legend?!


 I hope I'm getting really confused and there are just simple answers someone can give me!

 Thankyou so much!
 =o)


----------



## okinawagojuryu (Jul 9, 2005)

TST2703 , 

    There are many different versions of Rohai . I do not know if you are looking for the version found within TSD . But , it is based upon Matsumura Rohai , & was changed by the late Hwang Kee , KJN . Some of the changes he has made is there is no head but in the original . There was originaly 3 sliding steps forward , after the 1st 2 initial moves . Insted of what is taught as a break in TSD in the middle of the form was originally a sweep followed by a punch downwards . On the jump backs , the hand didnt go behind the head , but rather a high open hand block instead . Then there was no uppercut like found in Pyung Ahn 2 , or any similar move . There was no jump as well , there was a out to in crescent kick into the palm , followed by the 2 knife hands to the front , to close the form . There have been some changes made , but if you look at it , you can see it is indeed based upon the Matsumura Rohai . I do not know if that was what you are looking for , however I do hope this helps . I was TSD for many years , before making the gradual switch over the last 15 or so years to Okinawa Goju Ryu ; so if you have any questions , I'd be glad to assist you , as I am very familiar w/ both the Okinawan , & the tsd versions of the forms , & the changes Hwang has made .


----------



## TST2703 (Jul 9, 2005)

Thanks David!
 You can't believe how much this has done my head in ;o)

 Are you aware of any sites that would be able to give me more information on the Tang Soo Do version on the form? I've found some pictures on the net showing the techniques that make up the form - would you know where something like that would be?

 Did Master Hwang Kee learn this form from an instructor and modify it strictly for Tang Soo Do?  Where did he learn the form?

 Thankyou!!! =o)


----------



## okinawagojuryu (Jul 9, 2005)

You can find video of the form here : http://mchenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo/forms/

I honestly cannot say where he found this form , or learned it from . I do know that he did train w/ a Japanese stylist named Koichi Kondo briefly , this may be where he got the form from , not sure . A while ago , I was trying to locate where he got it from , & had given up , as even high ranking members of Hwang's MDK didnt have a clue , as well . However , this form is the rare piece to the puzzle , as you may know that most of the other forms in TSD have a strong resembalence to that of found within Shotokan , w/ some minor changes made by Hwang , or possibly Won Kuk Lee ; and there is no Rohai in Shotokan , there is Meikyo , as you have mentioned , but the TSD version has absolutely nothing to do w/ Meikyo . If you are interested in finding out more info on Koichi Kondo , the Japanese stylist , which Hwang trained with , please visit my angelfire site below , I've put all the info there on the TSD page I created , to find out more info .


----------



## TST2703 (Jul 9, 2005)

Thanks David - when I got there I realised I've actually already been to your site - there's only so much that Google will bring back ;o)

 Thanks for your help - I'll be sure to get back if/when I have any more questions! =o)


----------



## TST2703 (Jul 9, 2005)

In terms of the TSD Rohai and the Matsumura Rohai - I found this pdf:
http://www.bushido-kai.net/budoya/img/Gankaku-MatsumoraRohai.pdf

 I can see the break at step 11, but no sweep... have you any ideas on this?

 Thankyou!


----------



## okinawagojuryu (Jul 10, 2005)

Yes , you block , & grab w/ the Left hand , then sweep w/ the R. foot , followed up by a downward punch , after you swept him . You can see footage of it done here http://employees.oneonta.edu/davisgb/karate/Rohai.html . I should add that not all Ryu-Ha do the sweep , some just grab then punch down , others do the sweep . But there you can see it done w/ the sweep .


----------



## TST2703 (Jul 10, 2005)

Is that the Tang Soo Do Rohai?


----------



## okinawagojuryu (Jul 10, 2005)

No , thats Matsumura Rohai , as you were talking about Matsumura Rohai in your last post . I just sent you the video so you can actually see it being done .
As I was saying in my previous post , you can see TSD's Rohai here http://mchenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo/forms/ .


----------



## Gene Williams (Jul 10, 2005)

Why would anyone take an elegant kata like Rohai and screw it up like that? And why is he wearing shoes?


----------



## okinawagojuryu (Jul 10, 2005)

Gene , 

     That is the reason why I got out of TSD . Well one of the reasons , atleast . Hwang also said he learned Karate from books , & had no formal training , then he formed the Moo Duk Kwan . If somone did that today , they'd get laughed at . He has lied soo much about his history , I think he began to believe it himself . Also , most TSD stylist's have no clue of bunkai/Oyo ; its a shame ! I've since been training Goju Ryu , & had many oppourtunities to train w/ instructors in various sects of Shorin Ryu , & Shito Ryu , as well to learn the older versions of the Shuri Te Kata . My Kobudo Sensei , Nakamoto Masahiro Sensei , in Okinawa , would very much like it if I would train Shorin Ryu w/ him . He trained Kobayashi Ryu w/ Choshin Chibana ; and who knows , on my next trip I might take him up on it .


----------



## TST2703 (Jul 11, 2005)

Thanks for clearing that up for me! 
(I'm sure you'll hear from me again soon!)


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 13, 2005)

okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> Gene ,
> 
> That is the reason why I got out of TSD . Well one of the reasons , atleast . Hwang also said he learned Karate from books , & had no formal training , then he formed the Moo Duk Kwan . If somone did that today , they'd get laughed at . He has lied soo much about his history , I think he began to believe it himself . Also , most TSD stylist's have no clue of bunkai/Oyo ; its a shame !


There is a lot of splintering in Tang Soo Do.  LOTS of groups have broken off and formed their own direction.  The "official" lineage of Hwang Kee trademarked a new name for their style...Soo Bahk Do Moo Do Kwan.  This style is very much like Shotokan.  

Other Tang Soo Do groups have either began moving toward their original roots or they are already teaching traditional bunkai/oyo.  My teacher is in the latter catagory.


----------



## okinawagojuryu (Aug 13, 2005)

Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan is very different from Shotokan now . They've gotten rid of many of the classical Hyung/Kata in favor of the new Chil Sung & Yuk Ro Hyung created by Hwang . 
My whole thing is , if you are going to be learning bunkai/Oyo from another style , shouldnt you just switch to that style ? I trained TSD for many yrs , however it lacked many things , that were left out because Hwang studied Okinawan Karate from books , as he admitted in his own book . He has altered the Okinawan Kata so much , that it has lost it's original intent . Look at Matsumura Rohai , then look at Lo Hi from TSD , then look at TSD's Bassai , and look at Kobayashi Ryu's version of it . He has twisted around the Kata , just to make it look pretty , IMO . Kata shouldnt be made to look pretty , it should look deadly . My Kobudo teacher in Okinawa , Nakamoto Masahiro Sensei was a direct student of Choshin Chibana , so when I return to Okinawa, I am considering training Kobayashi Ryu from him . I would reccomend that if you feel there are pieces missing to the puzzle , find a new one , cause when you just add pieces from another puzzle , you will still end up w/ one puzzle w/ missing pieces .


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 16, 2005)

okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> My whole thing is , if you are going to be learning bunkai/Oyo from another style , shouldnt you just switch to that style ? I trained TSD for many yrs , however it lacked many things , that were left out because Hwang studied Okinawan Karate from books , as he admitted in his own book . He has altered the Okinawan Kata so much , that it has lost it's original intent.


You make some valid points.  However, there are people who teach Bunkai/Oyo in this style.  My teacher, for instance.  I have compared notes with Shorin Ryu stylists of my same rank.  Our understanding isn't that terrible nor are some of the alterations unintelligable.  The bottom line is that I have seen our hyung/kata done in shotokan, kyokushin, shorin ryu, and goju ryu.  Each style has added and subtracted little bits and pieces and each practice their own bunkai.  Why is TSD held to a different standard?


----------



## okinawagojuryu (Aug 16, 2005)

You've never seen any of the forms practiced in Goju Ryu , we practice totally different Kata , 1st . I'm thinking your instructor added Bunkai/Oyo from other styles . Cause I've trained w/ several different TSD instructors , including JJ Kim who was Dan # 38 under Hwang kee , & perhaps the Sr most instructor alive under Hwang Kee in the US right now , if not the world . None of them taught bunkai/oyo . I've trained w/ other TSD instructors , as well . Lets change the subject a bit , lets actually get into the bunkai . What are your thoughts of when you 1st turn to the rear , and put your fists on your hips in pyung ahn sam dan ? What is your interpretation of the move before the sidekick , and the kick itself in bassai ? Also , why do you think this move was changed , as well ?


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 16, 2005)

okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> You've never seen any of the forms practiced in Goju Ryu , we practice totally different Kata , 1st .


Since that is your art, I'll defer to your opinion.  I have one experience that I would like to share with you though.  In college I met a shodan in goju ryu and we worked out together.  I showed him our version of the pyung ahn kata and he did his.  These, he claimed, were goju kata???



			
				okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> I'm thinking your instructor added Bunkai/Oyo from other styles . Cause I've trained w/ several different TSD instructors , including JJ Kim who was Dan # 38 under Hwang kee , & perhaps the Sr most instructor alive under Hwang Kee in the US right now , if not the world . None of them taught bunkai/oyo . I've trained w/ other TSD instructors , as well.


Yes and no.  My teacher learned some of the bunkai/oyo from other styles and some he learned from his teacher, Master Bill Nelson (dan # 20420) and his teacher's teacher Master Lawrence Sieberlich (dan # 1815).



			
				okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> Lets change the subject a bit , lets actually get into the bunkai . What are your thoughts of when you 1st turn to the rear , and put your fists on your hips in pyung ahn sam dan ? What is your interpretation of the move before the sidekick , and the kick itself in bassai ? Also , why do you think this move was changed , as well ?


The first turn to the rear in pyung on sam dan is o-goshi.  The spear hand technique is actually an entering technique that follows a blocked punch to the inside.  The stepping into the cross legged stance and the subsequent grabbing of the opponent's shoulder sets up the kazushi for the throw.  The final turn into the "hammerfist" is the actual throwing motion.

The left hand grabs the opponents lapel or shoulder.  The right hand whips around the opponent's back.  The kick finishes harai-goshi.  I don't know why the move was changed.


----------



## Andy Cap (Aug 20, 2005)

okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> He has twisted around the Kata , just to make it look pretty , IMO . Kata shouldnt be made to look pretty , it should look deadly .


 There is one of the main differences I have found between the two styles. You want to look deadly, I simply want to enjoy the movement. What it looks like matters only to the bystander, and their opinion or praise is not my goal. From what I know of internet speak, IMO means "In my opinion", and yes I would agree it is your opinion.



			
				okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> Hwang studied Okinawan Karate from books , as he admitted in his own book


 I have read Hwang Kee's book many times - please tell me which page he says he learned martial arts from a book? He does say he researched history, and this research did indeed involve books. So, he learned about martial arts history and yes, probably more - from books. He may have learned a bit about forms and self defense concepts or even more...However, where did you get your information about Hwang Kee? Did you read his book so that you could say he learned martial arts from a book? No, you red his book as a supplement and perhaps to glean a bit more information. 




			
				okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> Cause I've trained w/ several different TSD instructors , including JJ Kim who was Dan # 38 under Hwang kee


 Did you find JJ Kim to be an inferior martial artists? I dare you to say this in public. Who was JJ Kim a student of? Perhaps Hwang Kee did learn something from that fabled book. I wish I had a copy.

 I recommend you go back and read Hwang Kee's text again. No where does he claim to be some great martial artist or the creator of a new and original style. Hwang Kee simply took what he learned and applied a bit of science and heart to it, and then laught it to his students. Here we are almost 60 years later and Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan and Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan are world known and respected by most. 

 I strongly recommend that when you open Hwang Kee's book again that you look at the bit about "Ryu Pa", and really think about what he is saying there. 

     I applaud the enthusiasm you have for your art, but I would suggest you temper that with some humility and an open mind.


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 20, 2005)

Andy Cap said:
			
		

> There is one of the main differences I have found between the two styles. You want to look deadly, I simply want to enjoy the movement. What it looks like matters only to the bystander, and their opinion or praise is not my goal. From what I know of internet speak, IMO means "In my opinion", and yes I would agree it is your opinion.


This is a serious question and I do not want to seem disrespectful by asking it, "couldn't you get the same enjoyment that you get from practicing forms by practicing dance?"  Or any other form of movement?  Why do martial arts forms attract you over these other activities?  

For me, the answer is simple.  The forms mean something and I want to know what they mean.


----------



## Andy Cap (Aug 20, 2005)

That is a very fair question, and no offense taken.

 My statement was regarding how the form looks, not how it feels.  I do enjoy the power in my forms.  I do visualize what I am doing, and it isn't the ramba.  However, are forms designed to look "cool" or are they designed to develop better movement and efficiency?  

 Yes, my forms are very similar to Shotokan or other styles - those stylists could be flattered that Hwang Kee chose their forms for his style.  He may have changed or altered them - true.  However, let us take a classic form as an example - Bassai/Passai.  This form is known by many names and many versions - to name a few; 
  Matsumura-Passai-Dai, Sho 
 Tawada-Passai 
 Itosu-Passai Dai, Sho 
 Ishimine-Passai 
 Teruya-Passai 
 Matsumora-Passai 
 Oyadomari-Passai 
 Sekiryo-Passai 
 Ichigina-Passai 
 Motobu-Passai 
 Tomari-Passai 
 Kyan-Passai 
 Funakoshi-Bassai-Dai, Sho 
 Chibana-Passai 
 Azato-Passai 
 Oshiro-Passai

 So, who has the original, and are the rest wrong?  Do they all look deadly, and are the deadliest looking versions the best?  I am sure you can see where I am going with this.
 Forms are meant to be a learning tool, as well as a meditative tool.  I find a few of my forms to be very meditative.  Other people do not have to like how I look when I do them because I do them for myself.


----------



## okinawagojuryu (Aug 20, 2005)

I do not have Hwangs book in front of me , however it is common knowledge that he stated he learned Karate from books in the library , while in machuria . Please understand that JJ Kim KJN no doubt is good at what he does , however he nor any of my other instructors that I trained w/ have ever shown me any applications found within the Hyung/Kata . Personally , I do think he trained in some form of Karate , then combined it w/ what he seen practiced in Korea , & the Yang style TCC he learned from Yang Kuk Jin . However , I dont think he would ever admit that he trained under any Japanese instructor , because you gotta remember the Japanese & The Koreans dont have the best relationship due to their past , so he didnt wanna loose some face , & seem like a traitor to his people . I also believe he might of trained w/ Won Kuk Lee , or any of the other earlier kwan Jang's to refine his technique , before the development of the MDK . I have done some extensive research into the hitory of the MDK , & you can take a look at my angelfire site to see what I've found . However , I am no longer practicing TSD , so I have pretty much given up on any further TSD research , but dont mind sharing the knowledge I've acquired w/ others . I do hope it helps others to continue their research , & grow . If not , that is fine as well , after all it is my own opinion on research I made , & could be lieing , but then again why would I waste soooo much time on doing so .


----------



## okinawagojuryu (Sep 1, 2005)

Hey Gene , look we're stupid now http://www.warrior-scholar.com/wforum/viewtopic.php?t=896 . Hey , sometimes the truth hurts !


----------



## Bester (Sep 1, 2005)

Looks like someone has copied the entire thread there in violation of US Copyright law. Also looks like he was logged into this site and posted his Username as well...(looks at site rules and copyright notice at page bottom.) yup, thats a violation.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 1, 2005)

By, golly, you're right, Jim!


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 1, 2005)

**Moderator Note**

  This copyright issue has been reported to the site owner and Administrators and they'll take care of it.

For now, let's take this back to the topic.

  G Ketchmark / shesulsa
  MT Senior Moderator


----------



## Andy Cap (Sep 3, 2005)

okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> I do not have Hwangs book in front of me , however it is common knowledge that he stated he learned Karate from books in the library , while in machuria .


 So, he learned from books in Manchuria. Did he state that the only lessons he had were from books in Manchuria? I read a book about computers in the library once - does that mean I learned how to design and configure a clustered Exchange 2003 environment  from that book I read 10 years ago? 

 It could even be common knowledge that I read that book. Of course if that were my only computer education, I would not admin it. However, you imply Hwang Kee's only martial arts experience comes from a couple of books in Manchuria. He was obviously a very bright man. If that was the extent of his development, I am sure he would not have admitted it, yet you say he states he learned from these books.  

 Have you ever read a martial arts book?  You are reading these forums - so now it is common knowledge that you learned martial arts from an internet forum.


 Heck, if Hwang Kee learned karate from a book, and then went and developed the wonderful art he did - I have even greater respect for him because in that case he was obviously a prodigal genius.

 When it really comes down to it...you will never convince me that Hwang Kee was anything less than a wonderful martial artist and instructor.



			
				okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> Please understand that JJ Kim KJN no doubt is good at what he does , however he nor any of my other instructors that I trained w/ have ever shown me any applications found within the Hyung/Kata


 Huh? So they showed you hyung without showing you the applications? What do you mean b this? Do you mean that they never showed you the purpose of what was being done in the form? Or do you mean they never taught you the movements individually? Either way, I would be amazed.


----------



## okinawagojuryu (Sep 3, 2005)

Andy , 

     What it comes down to is being happy , if you're happy , I'm glad for you ; and no I've never been shown any type of applications by any TSD applications . Every class , we'd warm up & stretch , do basics forms , one steps , then fight , nothing more . Have a good weekend !

David


----------



## Andy Cap (Sep 3, 2005)

Well if that is all you did, then you didn't see the whole art.  I take it that you are saying you never did self defense against single opponent/armed/multiple, one step sparring, breaking?  All of the Tang Soo Do schools I have gone to did these things.  

 In the end though, yes I would say I am happy with Tang Soo Do.  And if you are happy then that is great as well.  Have a fantastic weekend.


----------

