# When Your Punch gets Stopped.



## mook jong man (Dec 19, 2012)

This is one of my old instructors showing how to break through the guard and what to do if your punch is stopped using different combinations of Pak Sau , Reverse Tan Sau and Latching.

High level Wing Chun people can get through a guard with just the centerline punch alone , but for us lesser mortals we need a few tricks up our sleeve for when we can't manage to get the punch through.

[yt]uQKeq-c4gTM[/yt]


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## Jake104 (Dec 19, 2012)

I can't access the video can you post a url link? But without seeing the video I'm going out on limb and say, personally I don't like the idea of punching through someone's guard. Expecially if out of range and In doing so possibly compromising my own structure. I'd rather wait to punch until I have gained controll  of the opponents balance and I'am in proper range to launch an attack . Otherwise I believe it's gamble and to risky.


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## K-man (Dec 19, 2012)

Very similar to moves in aikido and karate. It works well and as demonstrated in your video your opponent actually falls forward into the strike.


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## mook jong man (Dec 19, 2012)

Jake104 said:


> I can't access the video can you post a url link? But without seeing the video I'm going out on limb and say, personally I don't like the idea of punching through someone's guard. Expecially if out of range and In doing so possibly compromising my own structure. I'd rather wait to punch until I have gained controll  of the opponents balance and I'am in proper range to launch an attack . Otherwise I believe it's gamble and to risky.



Try this one mate.
It's the 3rd  video on the page.

http://www.chisauclub.com.au/wc_chisau.html


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## OzPaul (Dec 19, 2012)

Is that the Kiwi who used to beat you up?


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## Jake104 (Dec 19, 2012)

I understand what he is trying to show once the punch gets stopped. I just don't think I agree with how he gets to that point prior to that. My problem is no one will leave there arm like that. Most fighters will have there hands back near there face like more of a boxing/mma guard. Next, if you punch from out of range/ boxing range you will probably eat a few On the way in. Can you elaborate on how you would get to that point of contact shown in Vid, with out It relying on speed and or some one leaving there arm out like that ? It's just risky unless your Bruce lee fast.


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## mook jong man (Dec 19, 2012)

OzPaul said:


> Is that the Kiwi who used to beat you up?



One of them, yeah.


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## yak sao (Dec 19, 2012)

Jake104 said:


> I understand what he is trying to show once the punch gets stopped. I just don't think I agree with how he gets to that point prior to that. My problem is no one will leave there arm like that. Most fighters will have there hands back near there face like more of a boxing/mma guard. Next, if you punch from out of range/ boxing range you will probably eat a few On the way in. Can you elaborate on how you would get to that point of contact shown in Vid, with out It relying on speed and or some one leaving there arm out like that ? It's just risky unless your Bruce lee fast.




I would say that he is doing the demo against a static partner for sake of illustration.
Keep in mind that the goal of WC is to intercept the opponent's attack by building a bridge. 
As the WC fighter moves forward behind his hands to intercept the attack, if there is an obstacle in the way at any point, then you would possibly see something like what was occuring in the video.


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## Jake104 (Dec 19, 2012)

That's why im asking because there is a BIG difference if you were to try this against an incoming attack or as an offensive attack. I get that it's static for purpose of demo.


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## mook jong man (Dec 19, 2012)

Jake104 said:


> I understand what he is trying to show once the punch gets stopped. I just don't think I agree with how he gets to that point prior to that. My problem is no one will leave there arm like that. Most fighters will have there hands back near there face like more of a boxing/mma guard. Next, if you punch from out of range/ boxing range you will probably eat a few On the way in. Can you elaborate on how you would get to that point of contact shown in Vid with out It relying on some one leaving there arm out like that ? It's just risky unless your Bruce lee fast.



Doesn't really matter Jake whether his arm is further out or closer to his face , there are techniques that will take advantage of either situation.
If the arm is out you can use the Chum Kiu Pak Sau which hooks around his wrist and pulls him in.
If the arm is closer to his face the angle of his arm is weaker and able to be collapsed with a regular Pak Sau from Siu  Lim Tau which travels in a more forward direction towards his opposite shoulder.

The point of the matter is we want to punch through the centerline but there is an arm on the centerline barring our way.
If both of his hands are off the centerline and leave a gap we can use the double piercing movement from Chum Kiu to go between both his hands and strike through.

You are correct no one is going to leave their arm out there at that angle , but don't forget the same techniques can be used if the other party decides to initiate with their own punch instead of guarding or blocking , they serve a double of function of either breaking through a guard or deflecting an incoming punch , then at the point of interception their arm angle will be quite open as they try to punch through your technique.

 But students that are learning the technique have to start somewhere and need a reference point , that particular dude just seemed to have his arm pretty far out.
But as I said , arms further in or further out the techniques pretty much stay the same , its only when the opponent has a more open guard with both hands off the centerline that the technique will change.

 We know in the real world that the arms could be close in shielding the head or their hands might even be moving around rapidly in a more dynamic type of guard , but students have to be able to get through the basic ones first
But to answer your question more fully about how you get to that point in the video , well the answer is if he is close enough for you to step in and hit him , you just step in very explosively and hit him.
If he is just outside of normal stepping range  as is likely in most encounters you don't step in because he will evade you and counter.

Being just outside of normal stepping range means that he is in perfect range for a low heel kick to his forward leg , your low heel kick will also keep him just outside of his own punching range , and the pain of the kick should also serve as a bit of a distraction as you enter into your  punching range.

So you just bridge the gap with your low heel kick and then use the entry techniques shown in the video , the entry techniques can also be done at exactly the same time as you do a low heel kick/ stamp kick , but now we are starting to get into chain kicking territory.

Hope that helped a bit.


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## Jake104 (Dec 19, 2012)

Thanks for clarifying.  I just think that's why WC fails so often against boxing, is they fail to understand range. They rush in for a bridge without understanding how to  properly close. Partial blame I think is because most all drills start at or close to contact..


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## mook jong man (Dec 19, 2012)

Jake104 said:


> That's why im asking because there is a BIG difference if you were to try this against an incoming attack or as an offensive attack. I get that it's static for purpose of demo.



Ok just saw this one , any entry technique in Wing Chun also has to serve the purpose of attack and defence because they are two sides of the same coin , if they don't it is useless and should be thrown out.

Just using the Pak Sau as an example , if a guy shapes up to me and I move in to Pak Sau the lead arm of his guard , there is no guarantee that he won't see me coming and fire off his own jab before my Pak Sau gets there.
But the end result is the same , his wrist still gets Pak Sau'd I'm just having to make contact a bit earlier than I thought I would because now his arm is coming to me .


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## mook jong man (Dec 19, 2012)

Jake104 said:


> Thanks for clarifying.  I just think that's why WC fails so often against boxing, is they fail to understand range. They rush in for a bridge without understanding how to  properly close. Partial blame I think is because most all drills start at or close to contact..



Your exactly right , people have to understand "Bridging the Gap Techniques" .
Wong Sheung Leung used to say "Wait until they are but one step away before you attack" or words to that effect.
I would add to that "Wait until they are in kicking range , then kick em with the appropriate kick for that range and then finish them with your hands".
The key word is reaction time , don't give them any time to react.


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## Eric_H (Dec 20, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> This is one of my old instructors showing how to break through the guard and what to do if your punch is stopped using different combinations of Pak Sau , Reverse Tan Sau and Latching.
> 
> High level Wing Chun people can get through a guard with just the centerline punch alone , but for us lesser mortals we need a few tricks up our sleeve for when we can't manage to get the punch through.
> 
> [yt]uQKeq-c4gTM[/yt]



Idea is sound, i just wish he wouldn't give up his body position so easily.


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## mook jong man (Dec 20, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> Idea is sound, i just wish he wouldn't give up his body position so easily.



How do you mean Eric?
Can you explain a bit more please?
Are you talking about the pivot that the instructor is doing with the "reverse tan sau".


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## geezer (Dec 21, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> Idea is sound, i just wish he wouldn't *give up his body position* so easily.



Eric, I assume you are referring to the _body position_ of the "dummy" or student, since he's so over-committed that he literally falls forward when the instructor goes past his arm and releases the  over-commited pressure of the student's punch. Still, such exaggeration always makes for a clearer ...and more entertaining (if less realistic) demo.

The real problem, as I see it, is that this works well against static, rigid opposing force. If your opponent's arm is relaxed and supple he will not be so unbalanced. I know this because I have an innate tendency to become too stiff, which made me an ideal "dummy" for demos like this. LOL


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## mook jong man (Dec 21, 2012)

geezer said:


> Eric, I assume you are referring to the _body position_ of the "dummy" or student, since he's so over-committed that he literally falls forward when the instructor goes past his arm and releases the  over-commited pressure of the student's punch. Still, such exaggeration always makes for a clearer ...and more entertaining (if less realistic) demo.
> 
> The real problem, as I see it, is that this works well against static, rigid opposing force. If your opponent's arm is relaxed and supple he will not be so unbalanced. I know this because I have an innate tendency to become too stiff, which made me an ideal "dummy" for demos like this. LOL



He's not so much committed Geezer , he is just holding his arm  up rigidly.
And he is supposed to be playing the part of a Non Wing Chun person so he won't use Wing Chun counters.
He is probably committing his strength more to the front because he is expecting a normal type of Pak Sau that attacks to the front and pushes the arm to the side.

I'm sure in our early days of training we have all been partnered with a behemoth at some stage and tried to Pak Sau his arm and just bounced off because he used his strength to hold his arm in place.

Well these techniques take advantage of that because the instructor is using a Chum Kiu Pak Sau where the fingers hook around the wrist and pull it in , similarly the reverse Tan Sau attacks the top of the arm and drags it down.
They are just using the leverage in different directions.

You have to remember we have 'forward force' on all the time when we make contact ,and what happens when you push on somebodies arm , the natural human reaction is to push back and probably commit a certain  percentage of their bodyweight.


Now there is no denying the fact that if the persons arm is nice and tense as you know , then the off balancing effect of these techniques  will be a lot more dramatic and can cause whip lash , shoulder injuries etc.


But if the persons arm is relaxed then the off balancing effect will be minimised because there will be less of a connection to their body , but ultimately the aim of the techniques is to create a gap for you to hit through whilst controlling the persons lead arm which is the immediate danger.
So whether they are tensed or relaxed the end result is the same they still get hit.


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## WingChunIan (Jan 2, 2013)

Jake104 said:


> Thanks for clarifying.  I just think that's why WC fails so often against boxing, is they fail to understand range. They rush in for a bridge without understanding how to  properly close. Partial blame I think is because most all drills start at or close to contact..


IMHO the reason why a lot of Wing Chun fails against boxers etc is because most training never progresses beyond basic drills like this one where the opponent simply accepts what is happening like a dummy. Chi sau is supposed to be the bridge between drills and fighting but in many cases it has become a training aim in itself and devoid of any link to reality. 
Once drills like this are well practised they need to be made live by the recipient being able to respond and respond in a random way using non Wing Chun actions. 
The principle of using lap sao, jut sao and pak sao to move obstacles out of the way works really well (I hate the rolly polly tan sao btw) but for me if the opponents arms are extended when the bridge is made they are unecessary as one can simply flow around the blockage and strike into the huge gaps behind (it is also questionable as to whether you should be punching from so far out), they are far more useful when the opponent chooses to cover up to sheild their head ala boxing or MT


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## Eric_H (Jan 3, 2013)

geezer said:


> Eric, I assume you are referring to the _body position_ of the "dummy" or student, since he's so over-committed that he literally falls forward when the instructor goes past his arm and releases the  over-commited pressure of the student's punch. Still, such exaggeration always makes for a clearer ...and more entertaining (if less realistic) demo.
> 
> The real problem, as I see it, is that this works well against static, rigid opposing force. If your opponent's arm is relaxed and supple he will not be so unbalanced. I know this because I have an innate tendency to become too stiff, which made me an ideal "dummy" for demos like this. LOL




Actually, although i agree with your assessment of the guy playing the "dummy" in this case, I was referring to the guy demonstrating. The instructor's idea is totally sound about getting the other guy offline, but when he vacates center for that lop/punch to the back of the head, he's moving too much. I know that he can achieve the same effect  (putting yourself on the side of the opponent) without moving his own body so far.

Remember as WC guys, we should be looking to make their movements bigger and ours smaller. Even an extra inch is a big statement for a WC guy.


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## mook jong man (Jan 3, 2013)

Eric_H said:


> Actually, although i agree with your assessment of the guy playing the "dummy" in this case, I was referring to the guy demonstrating. The instructor's idea is totally sound about getting the other guy offline, but when he vacates center for that lop/punch to the back of the head, he's moving too much. I know that he can achieve the same effect  (putting yourself on the side of the opponent) without moving his own body so far.
> 
> Remember as WC guys, we should be looking to make their movements bigger and ours smaller. Even an extra inch is a big statement for a WC guy.



But that is how the technique works.
It works by pivoting , you are using your whole body mass to move his arm and pull him in.
If you don't pivot and the guy is pretty strong , the chances are you won't be able to move his arm.


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## mook jong man (Jan 3, 2013)

WingChunIan said:


> IMHO the reason why a lot of Wing Chun fails against boxers etc is because most training never progresses beyond basic drills like this one where the opponent simply accepts what is happening like a dummy. Chi sau is supposed to be the bridge between drills and fighting but in many cases it has become a training aim in itself and devoid of any link to reality.
> Once drills like this are well practised they need to be made live by the recipient being able to respond and respond in a random way using non Wing Chun actions.
> The principle of using lap sao, jut sao and pak sao to move obstacles out of the way works really well (I hate the rolly polly tan sao btw) but for me if the opponents arms are extended when the bridge is made they are unecessary as one can simply flow around the blockage and strike into the huge gaps behind (it is also questionable as to whether you should be punching from so far out), they are far more useful when the opponent chooses to cover up to sheild their head ala boxing or MT



The drill is just an exercise , the students have to start somewhere.
Later on when they are better , random punches etc can be added.
One that I like to use is a random punch after Pak Sau and punch .
Student B puts up a boxing guard , student A does a Pak Sau and punch.
Student B on feeling the Pak Sau and punch then executes any type of random punch to student A's head or body.

What do you mean by rolly polly Tan Sau Ian ?

I might also add that they guy in the video has had no problem punching people in the head and knocking them out on numerous occasions.
He was the leader of a crew of bouncers who worked a very tough Pub/ Nightclub in New Zealand.
The man is no stranger to real violence , and if you have seen any Maoris you will know that they are not small people and definitely no push over in a real fight.


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## Jake104 (Jan 4, 2013)

WingChunIan said:


> IMHO the reason why a lot of Wing Chun fails against boxers etc is because most training never progresses beyond basic drills like this one where the opponent simply accepts what is happening like a dummy. Chi sau is supposed to be the bridge between drills and fighting but in many cases it has become a training aim in itself and devoid of any link to reality.
> Once drills like this are well practised they need to be made live by the recipient being able to respond and respond in a random way using non Wing Chun actions.
> The principle of using lap sao, jut sao and pak sao to move obstacles out of the way works really well (I hate the rolly polly tan sao btw) but for me if the opponents arms are extended when the bridge is made they are unecessary as one can simply flow around the blockage and strike into the huge gaps behind (it is also questionable as to whether you should be punching from so far out), they are far more useful when the opponent chooses to cover up to sheild their head ala boxing or MT



My main problem with " when your punch gets stop" is if you are out of punching range ( meaning at  jab range and not wing chun short bridge range) and you lunge in with a punch you are relying on speed and it can be quite risky. If you can do it then great. But as I get older I'm straying away from techniques that rely on speed and risk. I have done  it successfully against boxers in the past and i have ate punches in the process . This is why I say its important to ask, how do you get to that point of contact when doing drills like what was shown in mooks video? Which he answered already. 

Personally I prefer to draw in a boxer and ride the jab in. I prefer pak Sao. 

It really depends on they energy you get. If its committed energy then I angle. If its in and out energy I wait and pick the right time to come in to bridge. I wait to punch till I'm in the correct punching range for Wing chun to work and I have the line. 

All of which require some type of sparring.  Sparring Along with chi Sao bridges the gap between drills and fight IMO.


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## mook jong man (Jan 4, 2013)

Jake104 said:


> My main problem with " when your punch gets stop" is if you are out of punching range ( meaning at  jab range and not wing chun short bridge range) and you lunge in with a punch you are relying on speed and it can be quite risky. If you can do it then great. But as I get older I'm straying away from techniques that rely on speed and risk. I have done  it successfully against boxers in the past and i have ate punches in the process . This is why I say its important to ask, how do you get to that point of contact when doing drills like what was shown in mooks video? Which he answered already. Personally I prefer to draw in a boxer and ride the jab in. I prefer pak Sao. It really depends on they energy you get. If its committed energy then I angle. If its in and out energy I wait and pick the right time to come in to bridge. I wait to punch till I'm in the correct punching range for Wing chun to work and I have the line. All of which require some type of sparring.  Sparring Along with chi Sao bridges the gap between drills and fight IMO.


If the opponent throws a jab at you and you intercept it and you are out of your punching range .You must use your "forward force" to stick to his wrist and control him as you quickly move in to your punching range.If you don't have "forward force" and move in quickly he is just going to keep retracting his arm and firing off multiple jabs.If you control his lead arm then you only have to worry about him punching with his other hand.We can't let the opponent dictate when we attack , soon as he shapes up or throws a punch we must bridge the gap and attack immediately.The bottom line is every time we initiate our attack we must also be prepared to intercept any attack the opponent is launching as we are going in.


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## Jake104 (Jan 4, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> If the opponent throws a jab at you and you intercept it and you are out of your punching range .You must use your "forward force" to stick to his wrist and control him as you quickly move in to your punching range.If you don't have "forward force" and move in quickly he is just going to keep retracting his arm and firing off multiple jabs.If you control his lead arm then you only have to worry about him punching with his other hand.We can't let the opponent dictate when we attack , soon as he shapes up or throws a punch we must bridge the gap and attack immediately.The bottom line is every time we initiate our attack we must also be prepared to intercept any attack the opponent is launching as we are going in.


I agree 100%. Although I would ad, as I make contact and attack. I'm attacking the opponents balance/ center first with my forward intent. This will hopefully diminish further attacking and clear a striking line. Even if it's only one hand I have control of, kinda like what was shown in your video off a cross hand.

The other thing is I'm choosing when to attack by waiting to time the jab just right. It seem as if you are saying, when the opponent  attacks  you have to immediately bridge and come in? To me this is letting him control when you come in?  I'd rather use foot work to stay just outside of his jab range and use my Pak as gauge to determine who I'm dealing with and when and how to bridge and come in. This way i control when and how i attack. In a sense I'm using chi Sao sensitivity from outside all the way into medium range

What your saying sounds real good and will work against most people.  But I have encountered boxers that move a lot and may have far greater reach then me. In this case rushing in is dangerous. You will be rushing into a cross. When I was taking Eskrima that was heavy boxing infuelnced. I was taught a trick that boxer will use. They will take a step back off there jab  or your attack, turn there body 90 and throw the cross. So if you rush in, you walk right into there power hand.  You see this a lot in the UFC when people rush in. Chuck Lidel was real good at knocking people out as he was going back and as they rushed in. If memory serves me correct I believe he knocked out Babaloo like that. This is why it critical when you get the bridge to take the opponents balance right of the bat.

I suggest training or  sparring with boxers . At least to learn the tricks and strategies . I know most on here will say " Wing Chun is for real fighting and boxing is sport" . Well now a days with UFC and MMA being as popular as it is. Everybody you encounter on the street will probably have some sort of boxing type training. And for those who say " in the street I won't have to bridge the gap" . Well I have been in a few fights with tough MF 'ers who weather the initial attack  and then regroup and square off to go again. Then what ? You are forced to bridge the gap or run like hell.


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## Jake104 (Jan 4, 2013)

I know this guys WC sucks but this is more to show what happens with you walk into a boxers power hand.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjMwODc0OTk2.html


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## mook jong man (Jan 4, 2013)

Jake104 said:


> I know this guys WC sucks but this is more to show what happens with you walk into a boxers power hand.
> 
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjMwODc0OTk2.html



No you must move in as soon as he shapes up or throws an attack that is in range of hitting you , anything else is just prolonging the situation.

Its possible he could hit with the power hand , its also possible he could step off the line of the attack and hit you with a hook.
What is also possible is that he does nothing and just gets hit because your attack is so direct and so sudden that he doesn't have time to react.
As I said before , you have to be ready to intercept anything coming in as you attack or until you get the situation under control.

There is so much wrong in that video I don't know where to start Jake.
The supposed Wing Chun guy looked like he was really trying to mimic the tactics of a boxer which is ridiculous , he would get into range and throw a single punch and move back out again.

But he might have had half a chance of winning if he just would of stayed in there and moved forward with Chain Punching or what we call Continuous Punch.
Several times he was even inside the boxers arms and didn't press the advantage.
He should have overwhelmed him , but instead he moved back out of range allowing the boxer to establish distance again and compose himself.

That was probably the biggest mistake apart from all the hopping around and the attempted crappy low heel kick that lacked any power and seemed to be more of an after thought , if his low kicking is that bad he probably would have been better off with a medium heel kick to the midsection or groin if it was allowed within the rules.

There are definite technical flaws in this example of Wing Chun too Jake.
But at least he is aggressive and once he does get into punching range he stays in there and "starts going to work ".
Although his economy of motion leaves a lot to be desired he has the right idea.

[video=youtube_share;jU8B6eNm2zs]http://youtu.be/jU8B6eNm2zs[/video]


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 4, 2013)

Is chain punches truly that effective? A single "hay maker" can interrupt your opponent's "chain punch" and put him in defense mode. This is why in Chinese traditional weapon, the best way to deal with a spear stabbing is to use either clockwise circle or counter clockwise circle to redirect the straight line spear attack. That's exactly how an effective "45 degree dowanward hay maker" can lead all your opponent's straight line chain punches into the emptiness.


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## Eric_H (Jan 4, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> But that is how the technique works.
> It works by pivoting , you are using your whole body mass to move his arm and pull him in.
> If you don't pivot and the guy is pretty strong , the chances are you won't be able to move his arm.



I'm not saying don't use the hips to fuel the power of the lop, I agree that if you are a strength disadvantage you'll need that joint power.

What I am saying is that it can be done with a 30-45 degree tilt instead of a 90 degree turn and moving center of gravity. In Moy Yat WC, they would do this with a 45 degree pivot, in HFY we'd do it with a Leung Yi Ma which opens the hip about 30 degrees. There's a time and place for moving to side body, and I didn't see him needing to do it yet, for him it seemed like was more of a preference than driven by condition.


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## Jake104 (Jan 5, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> No you must move in as soon as he shapes up or throws an attack that is in range of hitting you , anything else is just prolonging the situation.
> 
> Its possible he could hit with the power hand , its also possible he could step off the line of the attack and hit you with a hook.
> What is also possible is that he does nothing and just gets hit because your attack is so direct and so sudden that he doesn't have time to react.
> ...



Im gonna have to agree to disagree on the coming in thing with you. I prefer mine, your prefer yours. Coke vs Pepsi , less filling vs taste great.


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## Jake104 (Jan 5, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is chain punches truly that effective? A single "hay maker" can interrupt your opponent's "chain punch" and put him in defense mode. This is why in Chinese traditional weapon, the best way to deal with a spear stabbing is to use either clockwise circle or counter clockwise circle to redirect the straight line spear attack. That's exactly how an effective "45 degree dowanward hay maker" can lead all your opponent's straight line chain punches into the emptiness.


 Chain punches done properly. Meaning chaining strikes together with out realeasing bridge/ contact work. But blitzing in with machine gun punches like you see on YouTube are easy to stop. Haymakers do work althought that's not how I stop em


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## Jake104 (Jan 5, 2013)

Jake104 said:


> Chain punches done properly. Meaning chaining strikes together with out realeasing bridge/ contact work. But blitzing in with machine gun punches like you see on YouTube are easy to stop. Haymakers do work althought that's not how I stop em



Actually one of my favorite ways to deal with chain punches is huen choy which i have only seen  in seven star mantis, outside my original WC school .Which looks like a hooking circular punch. Circles out and back to center.  I take a slight foward/side step usuallY lands on temple or back of the head. I have very high percentage with this punch especially if I double it up and switch level high low or vise versa.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 5, 2013)

Jake104 said:


> Actually one of my favorite ways to deal with chain punches is huen choy which i have only seen  in seven star mantis, outside my original WC school .Which looks like a hooking circular punch. Circles out and back to center.  I take a slight foward/side step usuallY lands on temple or back of the head. I have very high percentage with this punch especially if I double it up and switch level high low or vise versa.



I think huen choy and haymaker punch are pretty much the same thing. The nice thing about haymaker punch is if you use stealing step and spin your body with it, you can move your body out of your opponent's striking path, your full body spinning can generate a lot of power to knock your opponent off balance. Not only you can connect it with head lock, if your opponent dodges under your haymaker punch, you can reverse it and get your opponent a reverse head lock (guillotine). This is the "water" strategy. You spin with your opponent's attack. To be able to spin your body along with your opponent's punch is a very important skill in the throwing art.


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## mook jong man (Jan 5, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is chain punches truly that effective? A single "hay maker" can interrupt your opponent's "chain punch" and put him in defense mode. This is why in Chinese traditional weapon, the best way to deal with a spear stabbing is to use either clockwise circle or counter clockwise circle to redirect the straight line spear attack. That's exactly how an effective "45 degree dowanward hay maker" can lead all your opponent's straight line chain punches into the emptiness.



Chain punching is damn effective in the hands of an aggressive Wing Chun fighter who continues to move forward and go straight through the opponent.
While you are attempting to do your haymaker you must stray off the center line leaving it unguarded and will be taking chain punches to the face.
There is also nothing to stop a Wing Chun guy from interrupting his chain punching and using a short compact deflection to stop a haymaker and then continue punching with the other hand.

The best way to deal with the Wing Chun attack of Chain punching  is to use the Wing Chun defence of alternating from Tan Sau to  Bong Sau with the lead hand , the hands continue to stay on the centerline guarding the head while also redirecting the punches with minimal movement and effort.


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## mook jong man (Jan 5, 2013)

Eric_H said:


> I'm not saying don't use the hips to fuel the power of the lop, I agree that if you are a strength disadvantage you'll need that joint power.
> 
> What I am saying is that it can be done with a 30-45 degree tilt instead of a 90 degree turn and moving center of gravity. In Moy Yat WC, they would do this with a 45 degree pivot, in HFY we'd do it with a Leung Yi Ma which opens the hip about 30 degrees. There's a time and place for moving to side body, and I didn't see him needing to do it yet, for him it seemed like was more of a preference than driven by condition.



Lineage differences I suppose.

Yeah in our lineage we typically only pivot 45 degrees , the main reason is because it pulls the person in , and also amplifies the power of the strike we are pulling them into.

Any pivot he did would only have been 45 degrees not 90 degrees , must have been something up with the camera angle there.
I know the technique and there is no way you would pivot 90 degrees Eric.


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## Jake104 (Jan 6, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I think huen choy and haymaker punch are pretty much the same thing. The nice thing about haymaker punch is if you use stealing step and spin your body with it, you can move your body out of your opponent's striking path, your full body spinning can generate a lot of power to knock your opponent off balance. Not only you can connect it with head lock, if your opponent dodges under your haymaker punch, you can reverse it and get your opponent a reverse head lock (guillotine). This is the "water" strategy. You spin with your opponent's attack. To be able to spin your body along with your opponent's punch is a very important skill in the throwing art.



When I think of a haymaker I imagine a wide sloppy round swinging punch. The way I do it is similar to this video

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4qa6L6y-Iig&feature=youtube_gdata_player

He calls It a cheating hand or something, its at about 2:40 or so. In WC there's  hard and soft, so instead of going force against force, sometimes we may need to go around the force. If Its good enough for Gary Lam, it's good enough for me.


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## Jake104 (Jan 6, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> No you must move in as soon as he shapes up or throws an attack that is in range of hitting you , anything else is just prolonging the situation.
> 
> Its possible he could hit with the power hand , its also possible he could step off the line of the attack and hit you with a hook.
> What is also possible is that he does nothing and just gets hit because your attack is so direct and so sudden that he doesn't have time to react.
> ...



This is a better watch.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JxkEUfRBYQI&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Oleg (Jan 11, 2013)

Hi, folks.

In my humble opinion, the main problem, when we're trying to use bridges, is how to make a bridge in a full-contact combat. When all the movements are very speedy.. I guess, we should use hooks (ch. gou) when the opponent's attacking arm is moving back(accordingly to the sentence "The force precedes the opponent  stop it; the force retreats  help it go").  As I see, Wing Chun is first of all control. We must control our opponents and this is a main principle of Wing Chun (in my opinion). What do you think?


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Jan 21, 2013)

I'm not fond of the way this guy does lap/tan dar's. He is literally pulling the opponent towards his center. This kind of thing might be okay if your are fully aware and equipped to deal with this. Pulling an opponent into is basically inviting an attack.

It would be much better (in my humble opinion) to either step offline, or go forward (jam the arm).

When this gentlemen is pulling (literally) his opponent to the side, he is taking his hand off the centerline, and therefore exposing more of himself.

However, thanks for the video. It was very educational!

All the best in your training Ya'll.


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## mook jong man (Jan 21, 2013)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> _*I'm not fond of the way this guy does lap/tan dar's. He is literally pulling the opponent towards his center. This kind of thing might be okay if your are fully aware and equipped to deal with this. Pulling an opponent into is basically inviting an attack*_.



He's pulling him into his outgoing punch , which increases the force of his counter attack and breaks the guys structure at the same time.






jeff_hasbrouck said:


> _*When this gentlemen is pulling (literally) his opponent to the side, he is taking his hand off the centerline, and therefore exposing more of himself.*_
> 
> However, thanks for the video. It was very educational!
> 
> All the best in your training Ya'll.



No he isn't , it just looks that way because he is pivoting.
The hand that is latching or doing the reverse Tan Sau is still on his own centerline , his hand that is striking is on the opponents centerline.


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