# Bullying



## MJS (Oct 11, 2010)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39620074/ns/us_news-life




> MENTOR, Ohio  Teachers and administrators confronting the issue of four bullied students who died by their own hands must get involved to end bullying, an attorney for grieving families said Monday.
> Some of the student deaths followed bullying that was "incessant, it was constant, and the teachers and the administrators for whatever reason took a hands-off, laissez-faire approach and didn't get involved and stop this at its inception," Ken Myers said on NBC's "Today" show.
> Families of victims told the NBC show there is a frightening pattern of bullying-related suicides in the district.
> "They were little terrorists," Janis Mohat, whose son Eric shot himself in 2007, said on "Today." "They flicked his ear, they pushed him into lockers, they called him gay, fag. The bullies went up to him and said, 'Why don't you go home and shoot yourself? It's not like anyone would care.'"


 
I think its safe to say that stuff like this has existed for a long time.  Its sad though, that its gotten to an extreme now, where kids are taking their own lives, because of it.


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## Ken Morgan (Oct 11, 2010)

Sad.
Also is it any wonder why some kids bring weapons to school and shoot the ones they hold responsible?


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## Big Don (Oct 11, 2010)

I can't help but think that today's kids haven't been served well by all the self-esteem stuff in schools.


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## Carol (Oct 11, 2010)

This has been going on for a long time?   Really?    

Isn't that kind of like at a teenager who succumbed to injuries after getting his chest literally stomped on by gang members and saying that kids fight, and have been doing so for the longest time?  

Because these cases have ended in suicide, they have gotten national attention, yet that attention seems to be accompanied by a bit of a dismissiveness (if that's a word...), as if the fallen youths were some how weak, and that is why they took their own lives.   

I don't remember kids getting getting terms associated with anal sex tattooed on their *** by the hands of bullies when I was in high school in Chicago.   Yet it happened right here in New Hampshire.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/217607/bully-to-serve-six-months

What will it take for people to realize that perhaps what is going on is something a bit more than kids squabbling on the playground?


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## MJS (Oct 11, 2010)

Carol said:


> This has been going on for a long time? Really?
> 
> Isn't that kind of like at a teenager who succumbed to injuries after getting his chest literally stomped on by gang members and saying that kids fight, and have been doing so for the longest time?
> 
> ...


 
Just to clarify and it looks like I owe an apology for my poor wording.   Bullying, teasing, picking on others...this is nothing new.  Whats new, is the fact that kids are now so distraught by it, that they're taking their own lives.  

Did I have some people who gave me issues? Sure did.  However, I'm still alive, typing this message today.  

Its sad that a kid can't go to school, to learn, to get an education, without having someone torment them daily.


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## Archangel M (Oct 12, 2010)

Kids cant bring plastic knives with their lunches, cant put toy soldiers on hats because of "zero weapon policies" and cant bring cough drops to school but **** like this goes on and the schools do nothing about it? What the holy flying ****?


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## David43515 (Oct 12, 2010)

Where are the teachers and school administrators who let the bullying go on this long w/o doing anything about it? Where are the bully`s parents who can`t rein thier kid in a bit when someone complains to them?


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## Stac3y (Oct 12, 2010)

Big Don said:


> I can't help but think that today's kids haven't been served well by all the self-esteem stuff in schools.


 
That's because telling people they're wonderful just because they exist is a huge load of horse ****, and kids know that. True self-esteem comes from DOING things that make you proud of yourself, not just from "being yourself." I think it's great that schools try to concentrate on positive reinforcement and build kids' confidence, but to there has to be something to reinforce--that's what a lot of teachers miss.


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## Archangel M (Oct 12, 2010)

This "self-esteem" stuff is in the same neighborhood as the "respect" crap kids spout. You EARN respect..you are not born entitled to it. Part of the entitlement culture IMO.


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## Steve (Oct 12, 2010)

I don't have a problem with teaching kids that it's a good thing to respect other people.  I do, however, feel like a broken record when I say that as long as we treat the symptoms (kids who are bullied) and avoid addressing the disease (why the bullies bully) we will continue to have these kinds of problems.

There are two sides of the coin here, and as a society we consistently fail to address them both.  We have kids who are bullied, and we need to help them.  We also have kids who bully, and they need help, too... hopefully well before the bullying escalates to anything resembling these news stories.  

While it's easy to sympathize with a bullied child, and it's difficult to sympathize with a bully, until we accept that they are all children who need help, this cycle will continue.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 12, 2010)

Scuicides have been going on for a long time. I doubt that bullying was not the cause for a large percentage of them. Our sensationalism about bullying is what is new.
Sean


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## Steve (Oct 12, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> Scuicides have been going on for a long time. I doubt that bullying was not the cause for a large percentage of them. Our sensationalism about bullying is what is new.
> Sean


I'm having trouble understanding your second sentence. Are you saying that you believe bullying was the cause for a large percentage of teen suicides or that bullying doesn't lead to suicide?  The way it reads, it looks like you're suggesting that bullying is the cause for a large percentage of teen suicides, and if so, I'd agree.  

Suicide is a result of ongoing, clinical depression. Teens experience depression largely in only a few different ways: physical or mental illness, drug addiction, family trouble (abuse, divorce, etc), and rejection or fear of rejection by peers (including bullying and coping with homosexuality). Suicide is the third leading cause of death among teenagers, with car accidents being first and homocide being second. It's a big deal.

And in 2010, I think it's a real damned shame that kids who are struggling with the idea that they are gay are still being demonized to the point that they can't envision a life in which they could be happy and healthy. 

A close friend committed suicide in our sophomore year because of home issues and another close friend took his life in our senior year because of how his parents and some peers reacted when he told them he was gay.

I disagree completely that anyone is sensationalizing bullying. If anything, I don't think we're making a big enough deal about it. With kids being as plugged in as they are, constantly barraged by input and commentary from their peers, it's critical for parents to be aware of what their kids are into. 

Once again, I just think that most kids bully and most kids are bullied to some degree or another. If it gets to the point where a child is bullying another child to the point that suicide is involved, we've failed both of those kids completely. One is dead and the other's life is basically ruined.


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## MJS (Oct 12, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> Scuicides have been going on for a long time. I doubt that bullying was not the cause for a large percentage of them. Our sensationalism about bullying is what is new.
> Sean


 
I agree....people didn't start bullying or killing themselves today...its been going on for a long time.  But, what seems to be the new thing, is that kids are now killing themselves because of this.  Like I said, I've seen bullying in school, but I never saw anyone kill themselves because of it, or come to school with a gun and blow the accused people/person away.


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## Archangel M (Oct 12, 2010)

It's from an overdeveloped sense of self-worth. Nobody has ever LIKED being bullied, but it never crushed me to the point of murder or suicide. Why do todays kids seem so wrapped up in their sense of self worth that this now seems like an all too frequented option?


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## Master Dan (Oct 12, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I don't have a problem with teaching kids that it's a good thing to respect other people. I do, however, feel like a broken record when I say that as long as we treat the symptoms (kids who are bullied) and avoid addressing the disease (why the bullies bully) we will continue to have these kinds of problems.
> 
> There are two sides of the coin here, and as a society we consistently fail to address them both. We have kids who are bullied, and we need to help them. We also have kids who bully, and they need help, too... hopefully well before the bullying escalates to anything resembling these news stories.
> 
> While it's easy to sympathize with a bullied child, and it's difficult to sympathize with a bully, until we accept that they are all children who need help, this cycle will continue.


 
*I agree with you but the first priority is to protect the inocent first. The real problem is Parents!!! both sides. Schools have stopped teaching and become social engineering off track. I have seen teachers quite or leave becasue administrations would not allow them to dicipline violent students or even protect themselves from the students. I have also seen teachers so worn out they have become abusive. One or two people have a child but it takes a community to raise them. Parents need to teach thier children about how to deal with bullies and have enough self worth to realize how to not let it get them down. They have to take teachers administration to task even court if needed. My students all know they belong to me protected by me. Sometimes talk works other times not. Ive told some boy bullies I have a 12 year old girl that is going to kick you *** right in front of your friends if you do not leave these kids alone. It worked because the pier presure of being beaten by a girl was to horible to think about. In other cases I will exhaust all legal remedies first including talking to the parents but if that will not work I will put that kid down what ever it takes to get it through thier head don't do it again. *

*Many of the bullies are acting out due to abuse or neglet in thier own lives. They have no respect for anyone or property becasue they have no respect for themselves. *

*Our schools have been turned into day cares putting parenting and behavior health isssues on the backs of the teachers who do not have the time or education in those fields. Our schools have always had special ed.  or special needs departments we need to develop a third department in the schools,behavior health and life skills for those who do not have it so the other kids that want to get an education can in a challenging, inspiring and safe environment that teaches how to learn not just monkey see monkey do to meet some No Kid left behind crap that has failed *


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## MA-Caver (Oct 12, 2010)

David43515 said:


> Where are the teachers and school administrators who let the bullying go on this long w/o doing anything about it? Where are the bully`s parents who can't rein their kid in a bit when someone complains to them?



Because most likely the bullies are being bullied at home, and a cycle begins or continues. Dad goes off on the kid, kid takes it out on weaker kid, weaker kid (or parent) complains, bully gets disciplinary action and gets punished at home and it just goes 'round and 'round. But not always true and not in every case.  





Archangel M said:


> This &quot;self-esteem&quot; stuff is in the same neighborhood as the &quot;respect&quot; crap kids spout. You EARN respect..you are not born entitled to it. Part of the entitlement culture IMO.



 That is true and I would apply that to inner cities and densely populated areas. But out in the country I don't think it's as prevalent... it's THERE alright but in my own personal experience mostly proving one's self is done via other means.    





MJS said:


> I agree....people didn't start bullying or killing themselves today...its been going on for a long time.  But, what seems to be the new thing, is that kids are now killing themselves because of this.  Like I said, I've seen bullying in school, but I never saw anyone kill themselves because of it, or come to school with a gun and blow the accused people/person away.



 As a victim of bullying I used to cry and whine and complain and found myself sitting in the principal or guidance counselor's office many a day or was sent home because I gotten the crap beaten out of me.  Why I got the crap beaten out of me was because I fought back or responded with emotional violence. Now-a-days this would've gotten me an overdose of Ritalin. But there were days where I didn't WANT to go to school and a couple of bad days I recall where I thought death was preferable.  Of course I later started learning MA/SD and gotten better at fighting back and found that by fighting back I was left pretty much alone and the bullies sought out easier prey.     {BREAK}                                                                                It's a power trip, a control thing. A need for control where they (the bullies) don't have any outside of school. As I mentioned sometimes bullies are bullied themselves when they get home. A dominant parent or older sibling making their lives miserable. How is a child supposed to deal with that? Act out... act out their own frustration, fears, anger, humiliation, pain, guilt on some other hapless kid who is bee-bopping along happy with life because they got good folks a good life and all is well where-ever they are.  Jealousy, envy, bitterness and an instinctual awareness of weakness gives the bully or potential bully a method of selecting their prey.   {BREAK}           Sometimes bullies can come from a good home, some have a sense of empowerment given by their (parent's) social status or their peers and thus they feed off that power by picking on others who are (erronenously) perceived as lesser beings.             {BREAK}                                                                         Sometimes when I was called/sent/dragged/carried/helped into the (school) office(s) I was given the thought that it was indeed MY FAULT! that it happened. I said something wrong, or I overreacted or whatever.   I don't know of any kids when I was growing up that killed themselves because of bullying. I do know that a lot of them became successful and a lot of them toughened up or simply got over it and moved on. A lot of them became alcoholics or drug addicts or sought diversions elsewhere.... either way killing themselves was either not an option or not a preferred one. Somehow each of them managed to find a non-lethal way to deal with the pain. {BREAK}  That is what needs to be done with the victims of bullies and if necessary the bullies themselves.


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## Steve (Oct 12, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> It's from an overdeveloped sense of self-worth. Nobody has ever LIKED being bullied, but it never crushed me to the point of murder or suicide. Why do todays kids seem so wrapped up in their sense of self worth that this now seems like an all too frequented option?


Are you kidding me?  You're seriously suggesting that kids commit suicide because they have an _overdeveloped_ sense of self worth?


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## Steve (Oct 12, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> I agree with you but the first priority is to protect the inocent first. The real problem is Parents!!! both sides. Schools have stopped teaching and become social engineering off track. I have seen teachers quite or leave becasue administrations would not allow them to dicipline violent students or even protect themselves from the students. I have also seen teachers so worn out they have become abusive. One or two people have a child but it takes a community to raise them. Parents need to teach thier children about how to deal with bullies and have enough self worth to realize how to not let it get them down. They have to take teachers administration to task even court if needed. My students all know they belong to me protected by me. Sometimes talk works other times not. Ive told some boy bullies I have a 12 year old girl that is going to kick you *** right in front of your friends if you do not leave these kids alone. It worked because the pier presure of being beaten by a girl was to horible to think about. In other cases I will exhaust all legal remedies first including talking to the parents but if that will not work I will put that kid down what ever it takes to get it through thier head don't do it again.
> 
> Many of the bullies are acting out due to abuse or neglet in thier own lives. They have no respect for anyone or property becasue they have no respect for themselves.
> 
> Our schools have been turned into day cares putting parenting and behavior health isssues on the backs of the teachers who do not have the time or education in those fields. Our schools have always had special ed. or special needs departments we need to develop a third department in the schools,behavior health and life skills for those who do not have it so the other kids that want to get an education can in a challenging, inspiring and safe environment that teaches how to learn not just monkey see monkey do to meet some No Kid left behind crap that has failed


I don't think we disagree too much.  I just believe that in a situation where one kid bullies the other, they're both victims.  Ultimately, when it gets to the point where kids are grievously harming each other or themselves, just about every adult and role model in those kids' lives has to shoulder some amount of responsibility for it.  Parents, school teachers, administrators, counselors, doctors, coaches and whoever else was involved.


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## MJS (Oct 12, 2010)

MA-Caver said:


> As a victim of bullying I used to cry and whine and complain and found myself sitting in the principal or guidance counselor's office many a day or was sent home because I gotten the crap beaten out of me. Why I got the crap beaten out of me was because I fought back or responded with emotional violence. Now-a-days this would've gotten me an overdose of Ritalin. But there were days where I didn't WANT to go to school and a couple of bad days I recall where I thought death was preferable. Of course I later started learning MA/SD and gotten better at fighting back and found that by fighting back I was left pretty much alone and the bullies sought out easier prey. {BREAK} It's a power trip, a control thing. A need for control where they (the bullies) don't have any outside of school. As I mentioned sometimes bullies are bullied themselves when they get home. A dominant parent or older sibling making their lives miserable. How is a child supposed to deal with that? Act out... act out their own frustration, fears, anger, humiliation, pain, guilt on some other hapless kid who is bee-bopping along happy with life because they got good folks a good life and all is well where-ever they are. Jealousy, envy, bitterness and an instinctual awareness of weakness gives the bully or potential bully a method of selecting their prey. {BREAK} Sometimes bullies can come from a good home, some have a sense of empowerment given by their (parent's) social status or their peers and thus they feed off that power by picking on others who are (erronenously) perceived as lesser beings. {BREAK} Sometimes when I was called/sent/dragged/carried/helped into the (school) office(s) I was given the thought that it was indeed MY FAULT! that it happened. I said something wrong, or I overreacted or whatever. I don't know of any kids when I was growing up that killed themselves because of bullying. I do know that a lot of them became successful and a lot of them toughened up or simply got over it and moved on. A lot of them became alcoholics or drug addicts or sought diversions elsewhere.... either way killing themselves was either not an option or not a preferred one. Somehow each of them managed to find a non-lethal way to deal with the pain. {BREAK} That is what needs to be done with the victims of bullies and if necessary the bullies themselves.


 
I think we're pretty much on the same page here.  Just so theres no confusion, I'm not saying that bullying is ok.  I do feel that its a shame that kids today are taking it to this level...where someone will get pushed to the breaking point, where they take their own life.  

I too, was bullied in school and a few issues on the bus.  I managed to ignore a good portion of it and fortunately, that worked.  There were some cases, in which my mother was livid and told my father to go to the school.  He did a few times.  Of course, when he walked into the office, he got the usual sppech that nobody was available, blah, blah....so he walked right into the office, and of course, someone was available.   The issues stopped.  

Kids shouldn't be afraid to talk to their parents.  If kids are showing signs, ie: skipping school, saying they dont want to go, etc, this should be a sign for parents to ask whats going on.  The school should be providing a safe environment for kids to learn.


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## Archangel M (Oct 12, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Are you kidding me?  You're seriously suggesting that kids commit suicide because they have an _overdeveloped_ sense of self worth?



In the sense that embarrassment, or an assault on their self-esteem results in shootings or suicide?

Yup.


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## Archangel M (Oct 12, 2010)

While we all love our children, teaching them that they are all precious little snowflakes that are more precious than any other flake out there is doing them no favors. Not that this is the case in all of these situations, but I see it all too often.


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## WC_lun (Oct 12, 2010)

I was a small, wierd looking kid that was the new kid a lot due to my father being military.  I could not say anything at home or I would have been beat there.  eventually I made a concious decision that a butt whooping by some kid was preferable to living life as a victim.  I quit getting bullied when the bullies realized I was a risk to thier ego.

I can see where many of the bullies are victims also, but it doesn't really excuse the behaviour.  I do believe part of the problem is there is very little real consequences for the bullies.  Usually, if anything, they get thier parents called.  What if the parents don't care...or even worse, approve of thier child's behaviour?  Nothing get resolved and the bully suffers no repurcussions for thier behaviour so it continues or gets worse.  In some cases it snowballs until the victim of that violence resorts to violence themselves, either on thier tormentors, themselves, or innocents.

In the adult world it isn't as easy to be a bully.  Take it too far and you can do jail time, get your butt whooped, or get shot.  Most people know this and so it isn't as prevailant.  Make it known to kids as well.  If a kid is bullying other kids, put the bully in detention.  They keep doing it, expell them.  No coddling or making excuse for them.  No repeated chances.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 12, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> > Originally Posted by *stevebjj*
> >
> >
> > _Are you kidding me?  You're seriously suggesting that kids commit suicide because they have an overdeveloped sense of self worth?_
> ...


Agreed with Arch, kids can be amazingly cruel and intuitively know how to push the right button on their intended victim to tear down that self-esteem in a heartbeat. My antagonists sure did, and yeah if I didn't think about shooting myself... I'd wanted to shoot THEM! ( :miffer: bastards) but I didn't. And I survived and I made it through and in retrospect learned how to build myself back up to where I don't take crap off of nobody. 



Archangel M said:


> While we all love our children, teaching them that they are all precious little snowflakes that are more precious than any other flake out there is doing them no favors. Not that this is the case in all of these situations, but I see it all too often.


Parents. Parents worry either not enough or too much. Sure they want their child to be happy and want them to do the best that they can do in everything they do. Some more than others. 
But I think parents need to realize that sometimes a fall, a bad day can be good for a kid if they're taught how to take it in the right context. 
Kids are going to fight, it's human nature manifest to be violent to one another. It's maturity, growing into adult hood with lessons learned from those fights that will help (in part) determine the content of their character. If the child learns the RIGHT lessons then well... that speaks for itself, imo.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 12, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I'm having trouble understanding your second sentence. Are you saying that you believe bullying was the cause for a large percentage of teen suicides or that bullying doesn't lead to suicide? The way it reads, it looks like you're suggesting that bullying is the cause for a large percentage of teen suicides, and if so, I'd agree.
> 
> Suicide is a result of ongoing, clinical depression. Teens experience depression largely in only a few different ways: physical or mental illness, drug addiction, family trouble (abuse, divorce, etc), and rejection or fear of rejection by peers (including bullying and coping with homosexuality). Suicide is the third leading cause of death among teenagers, with car accidents being first and homocide being second. It's a big deal.
> 
> ...


You disagree there has been sensationalism about bullying as of late? I can't remember the media making a big deal about bullying when I was in school. In any event, the latest sensationalism is a good thing. I wasn't saying the problem didn't exist.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 12, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> This "self-esteem" stuff is in the same neighborhood as the "respect" crap kids spout. You EARN respect..you are not born entitled to it. Part of the entitlement culture IMO.


I really don't think you should have to earn respect. People should be taught to show respect as children, and show it at all times. Isn't that what the martial Arts is supposed to teach? 
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 12, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> In the sense that embarrassment, or an assault on their self-esteem results in shootings or suicide?
> 
> Yup.


I would put that in the catagory of poor emotional and perceptual fitness.
Sean


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## Steve (Oct 12, 2010)

I'm not sure I'm even on the same planet to comprehend what's being said here.  

WC_lun, did you just say that you were beaten at home? If so, I am really, really sorry.  

ToD, can you just summarize your point for me again?  I'm not sure whether you think that bullying is more or less of a problem than it was when you were a kid, and whether you think that highlighting extreme cases is bad, good or indifferent.  I guess I can just say that I don't think that bullying is being sensationalized.  That suggests that it's being overstated in the media.  If anything, the pervasive nature of bullying now, and the enduring consequences of bullying on the internet, are understated in the media.  If I get a video of you and put it on the internet, it's there forever.  FOREVER.  If I don't like you and get some video footage of you in that's even appears to be compromising, it will follow you forever.  

That lady who dumped the cat into the garbage will have a hard time ever putting that behind her because it's all over the internet.  Sure, it will die down for a while, until someone at work or in her personal life makes the connection, then a quick Google search later and it's all right back.  Same with the kid who was video taped without his knowledge.  Once it was on the internet, there's no taking it back.  It's out there.  That kid who was taped by his roommate was looking at a life where that video tracked him forever.

Add 24/7 access via texting, social networking, microblogging and every other way that kids can judge and there can be little refuge.  

Ultimately, if anything, I think that the issue is understated in the media, so in my own opinion, the issue is the opposite of sensationalized.

And archangel, I have no idea at all where you're coming from.  I honestly can't understand how anyone can say that a kid so depressed that he commits suicide is suffering from, in your words, an overdeveloped sense of self worth.  Do the troops driven to suicide in Afghanistan and Iraq also suffer from an overdeveloped sense of self worth?   

MA-Caver, you say you agree with Archangel?  I don't get it.  You think that you suffered from an over developed sense of self worth?  You admit that you considered shooting yourself and them.  Is that because you had an overdeveloped ego?  

As for the rest, I think that most parents do an okay job, and most kids are good kids.  On one hand, a common thread here is that many of you seem to think that bullying is no big deal.  On the other, you guys seem to believe that most kids are rotten and most parents are unfit.   I disagree with both of those statements.  I think most kids are healthy, happy and well taken care of.  Could some parents be more attentive?  Sure.  But are they any less attentive than their parents?  Probably not.  We tend to raise our kids much as we were raised.  

Is bullying more common now then when we were in school?  probably not.  But is it more damaging?  Yeah.  The consequences are graver because kids often have no refuge.  They have no opportunity to gain perspective.


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## Steve (Oct 12, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> I really don't think you should have to earn respect. People should be taught to show respect as children, and show it at all times. Isn't that what the martial Arts is supposed to teach?
> Sean


Bit of an aside, but I think there's a difference between treating people with respect and respecting someone as a person.  I can treat someone I don't respect in a respectful manner.  Sometimes, the best we can do is to be polite.


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## MJS (Oct 12, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> You disagree there has been sensationalism about bullying as of late? I can't remember the media making a big deal about bullying when I was in school. In any event, the latest sensationalism is a good thing. I wasn't saying the problem didn't exist.
> Sean


 
You're right....a big deal wasn't made of it when you or I or anyone else was in school.  The big deal today is that kids are killing themselves.  As I said already, bullying is nothing new....kids killing themselves because some punks are getting off on it, is whats new.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 12, 2010)

MJS said:


> You're right....a big deal wasn't made of it when you or I or anyone else was in school. The big deal today is that kids are killing themselves. As I said already, bullying is nothing new....kids killing themselves because some punks are getting off on it, is whats new.


 I do conceed the fact that your whole life can now be made public is new, but I do think bullying played a role in some teenage scucides of the past. I may be wrong.
sean


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## MJS (Oct 14, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> I do conceed the fact that your whole life can now be made public is new, but I do think bullying played a role in some teenage scucides of the past. I may be wrong.
> sean


 
Do I have stats to back this?  Nope.  Just saying that after 12yrs of school, it was rare that I heard of a suicide if any at all, due to bullying.  Of course, as we all know, times change.  

Today, we have more tools than we did in the past.  Facebook, Myspace, are just a few of the tools that kids use to cyber bully others.


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## teekin (Oct 15, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I'm not sure I'm even on the same planet to comprehend what's being said here.
> 
> WC_lun, did you just say that you were beaten at home? If so, I am really, really sorry.
> 
> ...


 
Steve I agree with you in some regard and hear what you are saying but I think if a child is raised to be confident, love, know they are loved and think for themsleves the sheer silliness of what is on the web ala FaceBook and MySpace won't make one whit of difference. The place they gain perspective is from the Real world, not the cyber/psyudo world. The learn from real face to face interactions with real people not on line interaction with people who may or may not be what they claim. It's so easy to hide behind a keyboard and lie your **** off either about yourself of another. The fact that you call me a zebra on line doesn't in any way make me a zebra in real life. As long as I have a strong sense of self it doesn`t matter What name you call me, what you write, what you show. It is allways more a reflection of your mind than anything to do with me. 
And yes this has been done to me.  Remember the _Urban Dictionary_ defintions of our names thread ( I laughed my *** off when I found out who posted the ummmm rather _interesting_ one of mine)and it was was just the tip of the iceberg. What else was on line was REALLY sick and twisted  but very very funny too. 

The parents and parenting make all the difference in the world.

Lori


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## Archangel M (Oct 15, 2010)

"no refuge"??

We are now "forced" to go on the internet and search for what is being said about us?


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## Bruno@MT (Oct 15, 2010)

Grendel308 said:


> Steve I agree with you in some regard and hear what you are saying but I think if a child is raised to be confident, love, know they are loved and think for themsleves the sheer silliness of what is on the web ala FaceBook and MySpace won't make one whit of difference. The place they gain perspective is from the Real world, not the cyber/psyudo world. The learn from real face to face interactions with real people not on line interaction with people who may or may not be what they claim. It's so easy to hide behind a keyboard and lie your **** off either about yourself of another. The fact that you call me a zebra on line doesn't in any way make me a zebra in real life. As long as I have a strong sense of self it doesn`t matter What name you call me, what you write, what you show. It is allways more a reflection of your mind than anything to do with me.
> And yes this has been done to me.  Remember the _Urban Dictionary_ defintions of our names thread ( I laughed my *** off when I found out who posted the ummmm rather _interesting_ one of mine)and it was was just the tip of the iceberg. What else was on line was REALLY sick and twisted  but very very funny too.
> 
> *The parents and parenting make all the difference in the world.*
> ...



First of all, the bolded part is spot on.

However, you are only half right about the other part. What anonymous others think about me is indeed not relevant to how I should feel. However, what is on the internet stays on the internet forever.

Anyone who googles 'Karen Owen', ever will find out that she is the girl who created a powerpoint with names and pics of the people she had sex with in college, with detailed descriptions of them and their performance, and a numerical rating.

This will forever haunt her.
Her (potential) future boyfriends will find this.
Her future employer will find it.
Her family will find it.
So all in all, this will have a tremendous impact on her life, _regardless of how she feels about herself in relation to this incident._. It doesn't matter if she still thinks it was funny or not and it doesn't matter how she feels about it or if she comes to grips with this. Other people will influence her life based on that one stupid decision.

I think this was what steve was getting at.


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## yardmeat (Oct 15, 2010)

I've worked in suicide prevention (QPR) for about four years now. I've lost two friends to suicide. Few people know this but, in the US, suicides outnumber homicides about two to one.



I am not here to say that the bullies in these situations are innocent. They are cruel, inhumane, and often criminal. They should be held accountable for their behavior, but they should not (with rare exception) be held accountable for the behavior of those that they tease. Little can come of the blame game in these situations. The best we can do is ask ourselves if we know anyone who is in danger and do our best to help.


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## Steve (Oct 15, 2010)

Grendel308 said:


> Steve I agree with you in some regard and hear what you are saying but I think if a child is raised to be confident, love, know they are loved and think for themsleves the sheer silliness of what is on the web ala FaceBook and MySpace won't make one whit of difference. The place they gain perspective is from the Real world, not the cyber/psyudo world. The learn from real face to face interactions with real people not on line interaction with people who may or may not be what they claim. It's so easy to hide behind a keyboard and lie your **** off either about yourself of another. The fact that you call me a zebra on line doesn't in any way make me a zebra in real life. As long as I have a strong sense of self it doesn`t matter What name you call me, what you write, what you show. It is allways more a reflection of your mind than anything to do with me.
> And yes this has been done to me.  Remember the _Urban Dictionary_ defintions of our names thread ( I laughed my *** off when I found out who posted the ummmm rather _interesting_ one of mine)and it was was just the tip of the iceberg. What else was on line was REALLY sick and twisted  but very very funny too.
> 
> The parents and parenting make all the difference in the world.
> ...


Parents make a big difference.  I've never said otherwise.  I also want to be clear that I don't want to overstate the situation.  It's a big deal, in my book, but as I said before, MOST kids are happy, healthy and well adjusted and MOST parents are doing the best they can to be good parents.  I believe this.  

But for kids who ARE bullied, the bullying can be relentless for the reasons I said before.  Also, parents are only part of the equation, and as a child moves into adolescence, other people begin to exert influence.  School administrators, teachers and peers gain a foothold.   Also, particularly in the social experiment we call primary education, what's "true" is often far less important than what your peers believe is true.  

Archangel, just pretend for a second that you live in the USA circa 2010, a country in which teenagers are almost all involved with social networking to some degree or another, have cell phones that send these things called text messages and, by and large, ARE concerned about what their peers think of them.     

Bruno, that's it exactly.  While it's possible, likely even, that a child can overcome a video or something like that posted on the internet, he or she has to survive it first.  And if a video is followed by another video, or by relentless text messages, emails, facebook postings or a combination of them all, I'd say most adults would have a hard time coping with it.


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## Steve (Oct 15, 2010)

MJS said:


> Do I have stats to back this?  Nope.  Just saying that after 12yrs of school, it was rare that I heard of a suicide if any at all, due to bullying.  Of course, as we all know, times change.
> 
> Today, we have more tools than we did in the past.  Facebook, Myspace, are just a few of the tools that kids use to cyber bully others.


Successful suicides are relatively rare, while suicide attempts, whether earnest attempts or not, are startlingly common.  

Personally, even in situations where a person commits suicide, even as a plea for help more than a sincere desire for death, suggests that the kid is depressed and needs some help.


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## MJS (Oct 15, 2010)

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-choate-facebook-block-1015-20101014,0,5247289.story



> The popular Facebook social networking website has been blocked at Choate Rosemary Hall after students posted "fairly mean things" about classmates on the site.
> Mary Verselli, a spokeswoman for the school, said Facebook was blocked from the school network on Oct. 5 because six students violated an acceptable-use policy.
> "It was to give the kids a 'time-out' to think about how they're communicating online," she said.


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## Steve (Oct 15, 2010)

MJS said:


> http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-choate-facebook-block-1015-20101014,0,5247289.story


Good policy, but I wonder how many of those kids have facebook on their phones?  

Like it or not, guys, social networking isn't going away.  It's not a fad.


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## MJS (Oct 15, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Successful suicides are relatively rare, while suicide attempts, whether earnest attempts or not, are startlingly common.
> 
> Personally, even in situations where a person commits suicide, even as a plea for help more than a sincere desire for death, suggests that the kid is depressed and needs some help.


 
I recall a case in CT, in which a kid was bullied relentlessly...he hung himself.  I forget where this other incident happened, but I recall a case, in which a grown woman created a fake profile, pretending to be a boy.  "She" started talking to this girl, leading her on and on, until one day, "She" said that she no longer liked the girl, and she'd be better off dead...that girl killed herself.

Of course these are 2 examples of many, so I'm not disagreeing with you on what you said.  

Successful, not successful....either way, its a shame.


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## MJS (Oct 15, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Good policy, but I wonder how many of those kids have facebook on their phones?
> 
> Like it or not, guys, social networking isn't going away. It's not a fad.


 
Agreed.  With technology today, I'd bet a good portion of the students have cell phones and have FB access.  I wonder what the school can do if someone uses their cell phone to bully someone on FB.  They may not be able take the phones away, but I wonder if there is some action the school could take.


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## WC_lun (Oct 15, 2010)

the other case you are referring to is here in Missouri.  The woman was eventually charged with some misdominors.


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## yardmeat (Oct 15, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Successful suicides are relatively rare, while suicide attempts, whether earnest attempts or not, are startlingly common.


Attempts are certainly far more common than successful suicides, but it is important to remeber that suicide is not a rare cause of death.  It is the third leading cause of death amongst teenagers, the second leading cause of death amongst college students, and the second leading cause of death amongst 25-34 year olds.



> Personally, even in situations where a person commits suicide, even as a plea for help more than a sincere desire for death, suggests that the kid is depressed and needs some help.


Absolutely.


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## Blade96 (Oct 20, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> It's from an overdeveloped sense of self-worth. Nobody has ever LIKED being bullied, but it never crushed me to the point of murder or suicide. Why do todays kids seem so wrapped up in their sense of self worth that this now seems like an all too frequented option?





Archangel M said:


> In the sense that embarrassment, or an assault on their self-esteem results in shootings or suicide?
> 
> Yup.



You have to be trippin'. I attempted suicide as a teen because i was bullied and it wasnt because of any assault on self esteem - because i had none. That's what abusers do - they take away any self  esteem or self worth you have. 



Touch Of Death said:


> I really don't think you should have to earn respect. People should be taught to show respect as children, and show it at all times. Isn't that what the martial Arts is supposed to teach?
> Sean



Nope. I think respect should be earned. I think parents have an entitlement complex a lot - as if they feel they are entitled to respect from children just cause they gave birth to them no matter how they treat children. Its like the saying 'respect your elders' but the elders may disrespect younger people. Respect should swing both ways! If one wants respect even from their family and kids they too have to earn it.


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Nope. I think respect should be earned. I think parents have an entitlement complex a lot - as if they feel they are entitled to respect from children just cause they gave birth to them no matter how they treat children. Its like the saying 'respect your elders' but the elders may disrespect younger people. Respect should swing both ways! If one wants respect even from their family and kids they too have to earn it.


Once again, I think that just about everyone "deserves" to be treated with respect, and that this is a terrific thing to be teaching our kids.  Not everyone should be respected.  Respect is earned.  Treating people respectfully should be a given, even if you don't respect them.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 20, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Nope. I think respect should be earned. I think parents have an entitlement complex a lot - as if they feel they are entitled to respect from children just cause they gave birth to them no matter how they treat children. Its like the saying 'respect your elders' but the elders may disrespect younger people. Respect should swing both ways! If one wants respect even from their family and kids they too have to earn it.


 Whoa, I think you are way off base here. First of all, we are talking about a biblical commandment, secondly, making a habbit of being disrespectfull in general, is a lifestyle choice. People and their children will all be much happier and have less of a victim mentality, if they are taught to show respect. 
Sean


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## Master Dan (Oct 20, 2010)

yardmeat said:


> I've worked in suicide prevention (QPR) for about four years now. I've lost two friends to suicide. Few people know this but, in the US, suicides outnumber homicides about two to one.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not here to say that the bullies in these situations are innocent. They are cruel, inhumane, and often criminal. They should be held accountable for their behavior, but they should not (with rare exception) be held accountable for the behavior of those that they tease. Little can come of the blame game in these situations. The best we can do is ask ourselves if we know anyone who is in danger and do our best to help.


 
*good stats above thank you I live and teach in an area that has the highest rate of suicide in the nation multiple some weekly young as 13 recent my best friend lost is son of 13 but under investigation starte out as suicide then group smoking pot and playing Rusian rulet? still more to come even so many self hangings this last year. *

*What is alarming about the teen age group is the mentality to copy cat. There is even a new fad on the internet of suicide packs between them and mulitple suicides. The current fear not is if this Rusian Rulet rumor or not gets out others will copy and start?*

Big battle her with the school dstrict they want to save money by eliminating the high schoo VP principal position which requires mental health and counciling certification and the board publically stated that well we did not need it at the grade school??? Yeh 8-10 year olds are not killing them selves its teenagers if you gave a crap about the kids you would understand that its clasic egos and politics and the kids are suffering!!!!

I appreciate your comments


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## Blade96 (Oct 20, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Treating people respectfully should be a given, even if you don't respect them.





Touch Of Death said:


> People and their children will all be much happier and have less of a victim mentality, if they are taught to show respect.
> Sean



That sounds good. and i follow that way, i show everyone respect and am nice to everyone, unless they disrespect me or give me a reason not to like hurt me. Then I will not show respect to them.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 20, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> That sounds good. and i follow that way, i show everyone respect and am nice to everyone, unless they disrespect me or give me a reason not to like hurt me. Then I will not show respect to them.


Thats what its all about.:highfive:
 Sean


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## Blade96 (Oct 22, 2010)

ye do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around....



Touch Of Death said:


> Thats what its all about.



lol, sorry :angel: 

That post here reminded me of that funny song.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 22, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> ye do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While I have no proof, The Native American's that live in Idaho, where the song was written, use the term "Hokah!" during pow wows a lot. I wonder if the song has its roots in that term.
Sean:idea:


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## Blade96 (Oct 22, 2010)

could be, who knows.


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## MJS (Oct 25, 2010)

Thought these were interesting

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39834444/ns/us_news-life/



> TRENTON, N.J.  New Jersey lawmakers introduced an "anti-bullying bill of rights" Monday that one advocate said would be the toughest state law of its kind in the nation, a proposal that follows the widely publicized suicide of a Rutgers University student who was humiliated online.
> The proposal was introduced by a bipartisan group of legislators and advocates and seeks to augment laws New Jersey passed eight years ago. It would require anti-bullying programs in public K-12 schools and language in college codes of conduct to address bullying.


 
Now this is pretty sad:
http://www.courant.com/community/hartford/hc-hartford-mom-arrested-1026-20101025,0,1808405.story



> The mother of a 12-year-old has been arrested for sending her son to school with weapons because he was being bullied, according to police.
> Police said that they were notified that a child at Burns Elementary School had a pistol-style BB gun and a folding knife in his backpack Friday afternoon


 
And then this:
http://www.middletownpress.com/articles/2010/10/24/news/doc4cc3cbca11505040482137.txt


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