# A Local Reminder Of Why "REAL" Self-Defense Includes Preparedness Training



## Bill Mattocks (Nov 21, 2017)

This happened last night - about 3 miles from my house.  We could hear explosion and then the roar of the fire, which resulted in evacuation orders for the neighborhood next to ours to the south.  A gas main blew up, and it made a crater in the ground 18 feet deep, they say.

Surveillance video shows explosion, massive fire in Orion Twp.

I saw the fire column hundreds of feet in the air at the end of our cul-de-sac.  Because the explosion also knocked out 911 and all the non-emergency numbers to the Oakland County Sheriff's Office, we could not reach out to them to find out status and if we should consider leaving.

So we went through our preparedness list.   We got out the cat carriers and got the dog leashes and food and so on ready.  We got dressed although it was 10:30 PM at night and we had been about to go to bed.  We found lodging for the night a safe distance away if we had decided to leave.  I sent my employer a quick email and packed up my work-related items.  We grabbed the essential clothing and hygiene items.

We had the route planned the we would take north to escape the situation to the south.

As it turned out, the gas company was able to shut off the gas main and the fire went out almost immediately - but it took nearly two hours for that to happen.

What did we learn?  Couple things.

First, my neighbors were paralyzed with indecision.  They stood around and kept saying "What?  what?" because they could not get their heads around the idea of what had happened.  It was as if they could not believe the evidence of their own eyes and ears.  They would have died, period.  Too stupid to live.  This is what happens when you do not prepare.  Sorry, s'fact.  I talked to them, tried to explain what was happening (once I knew myself what it was) and they simply could not comprehend it.  The very idea of evacuation was something they simply were not capable of processing.

Second, we missed some items in our preparedness.  Vital documents were not readily available and would have been abandoned.  I'm talking about birth certificates, passports, work ID cards, military documents, power of attorney for my elderly mom, insurance papers, checkbooks, etc.  We missed that.  We will fix it.

Third, we had not established clear lines of authority.  In these situations, one person is in charge; period.  There is no discussion.  If I am the person in charge, and I say we go, we go.  No doddling, no fumfering around, no arguing.  I say go, we go.  If that person is not me, then I do what I am told, and with a quickness. That has also been fixed.

Finally, it all became less theoretical last night.  I could hear and see death; we were lucky that it stayed where it was and didn't come for us.  If it had, time would have been short.  Not everyone gets that much time to deliberate.  If you think it can't happen to you, think again.  This sort of thing is rare; but it happens and people die.   All the preparedness in the world may not save you; but then again, it might.  And if you don't prepare, you get what you get.

As I've often mentioned on MT, in my opinion, self-defense includes preparedness.  Like having an escape plan in case of fire, having fire extinguishers and knowing how to use them, simple stuff like that.  It's great to be able to break a neck elventy-dozen ways with your hoo-hoo-fu style, but if you can't quickly bug out of your neighborhood when the gas main blows up and the houses start to burn, it's not much use to you, is it?

My 2 cents for today.


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## pgsmith (Nov 21, 2017)

With today's modern medicine and helpful society, Darwin has to have some way to work on our evolution. Your neighbors were apparently potential Darwinian statistics.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 21, 2017)

pgsmith said:


> With today's modern medicine and helpful society, Darwin has to have some way to work on our evolution. Your neighbors were apparently potential Darwinian statistics.



It was actually kind of interesting to see.  They were standing around outside - as I was - looking at the fireball in the sky.  They were asking each other what was going on.  I told them, as I understood it.  I also told them that the neighborhood to the immediate south of us had been ordered to evacuate by the local sheriff's office and we might be next on the list; the wind from the blaze was headed right towards us.  They absolutely could not comprehend the thought.  They literally - and I mean literally - looked me right in the face and repeated "What?  What?" over and over again.  They could not even grasp the concept.  Look - fire.  Danger.  Get away.  WHAT?  WHAT?


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 21, 2017)

thanks for the reminder Bill.
i have most things i need, including a trailer to haul stuff or live out of. i mostly think of shelter in place, i am not ready to make an evacuation within that short a period.   i will work on that.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 21, 2017)

From the Township Supervisor:
For Immediate Release:

Orion Township, MI- At approximately 10:00 pm on Monday, November 20, the Orion Township Fire Department was dispatched to the report of natural gas leak in the 700 Block of Brown Rd. Initial arriving fire officers reported a large gas leak about 1,000 feet north of the Checkers Restaurant. Minutes after arrival the gas ignited sending flames approximately 150 feet in the air.
Brown Road was immediately shut down in both directions and incident commanders called for additional personnel and neighboring departments for mutual aid. Emergency crews from several area fire departments as well as Oakland County Sheriff’s deputies began closing off the immediate area and evacuating nearby businesses and homes along Judah Road as a precaution.
Consumers Energy representatives stated the rupture was from a 22-inch natural gas line traveling parallel with Brown Rd. The gas line following the rupture created a crater approximately 20 feet deep and 30 feet in diameter. Consumers Energy located two valves for shutdown at Joslyn and Brown Roads and the second at Maybee and Dixie Highway. Gas was shut off to the Brown Road main around 11:40pm. Fire crews then advanced hose lines near the rupture area to begin extinguishing exposures including multiple construction utility trailers that were on fire.
The fire damaged trees and vegetation hundreds of feet in all directions and crews remained on scene for several hours extinguishing brush fires. All units cleared the scene around 4:00am and returned shortly before 8:30am (November 21) to further extinguish smoldering brush piles. The exact cause of the rupture is not known and is currently under investigation with the Oakland County Sheriffs Department and Consumers Energy.
According to Consumers Energy, residential gas supply was not affected with the rupture or the closure of the valves to the main.
“This is easily one of the largest fire in our department’s history and given its size I couldn’t be more thankful that no one was injured during the incident; that’s the most important takeaway here,” Interim Fire Chief John Pender said. “I would like to reiterate that the public around the immediate area and those surrounding are completely safe and we can continue with life as usual. Also, every emergency responder that came here tonight worked extremely hard to get this incident under control and I’m so grateful for their effort.”
Orion Township Fire Department would like to extend its deepest gratitude to the following agencies that assisted during the incident: Independence Township Fire Department, Waterford Regional Fire Department, Auburn Hills Police & Fire Department, Oxford Fire Department, Oakland Township Fire Department, Brandon Fire Department, Oakland County Sheriffs Office, and Orion Township Buildings and Grounds.
Orion Township Supervisor Chris Barnett added the following:
“The most important thing is that given the sheer size and intensity of this fire that we had absolutely zero injuries; that’s pretty remarkable,” Supervisor Barnett said. “The immediate response and coordination of these agencies coming together was an incredible testament to our emergency responders and the situation they are called to. I am extremely proud of our department’s response and all neighboring agencies that came to our aid.”


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 22, 2017)

*Preparedness training is essential* just as Bill has illustrated above.  Planning and having traveling bags prepared and ready to go is and should be a regular part of any household readiness.  Just as one should be prepared, if you need to hunker down and wait out a disaster as well.  Food on hand, etc.  All of these things are very, very important for any family.


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## Danny T (Nov 22, 2017)

Vital records... 
We keep originals in a bank fire proof box. Up to date copies in both bugout bags. Also have important contact info as well. My wife and I can have our home locked down and be ready to leave in an emergency evacuation with our dogs in less than 5 minutes. When our sons were still living with us it took about 10 minutes and we practiced it. Along with fire evacuation home invasion, & first aid drills. Today both are doing similar with their families. Self defense/personal protection encompasses more than fighting. It is actually more about survival than fighting.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 22, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Self defense/personal protection encompasses more than fighting. It is actually more about survival than fighting.



You nailed it.  I know many who train martial arts and have for years.  I know those who spend lots of time at the range with their guns.  They want to be ready, they want to be able to protect themselves and their families.  And I am fully in agreement with that; those things are very important.

But then I ask them if they are CPR qualified.  No.  If they know basic first aid.  No.  If they have a fire extinguisher in their home?  No.  And so on.

It's all about risk assessment and preparing for the disasters MOST LIKELY to happen.  Yes, you might get mugged on the way home from work.  Some thug may kick your door in at three in the morning.  More likely, you will have a local weather event or other natural disaster that requires you to leave or shelter in place.  More likely, someone will slip and fall in your home or on your property.  More likely, you'll have a grease fire in your kitchen.

So prepare for the ones that are most likely to happen first.  The others are good also, but less likely to occur.


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## jobo (Nov 23, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> This happened last night - about 3 miles from my house.  We could hear explosion and then the roar of the fire, which resulted in evacuation orders for the neighborhood next to ours to the south.  A gas main blew up, and it made a crater in the ground 18 feet deep, they say.
> 
> Surveillance video shows explosion, massive fire in Orion Twp.
> 
> ...


i think you are over being dramatic, a fire THREE miles away, is hardly on your door step and really struggles to come under even a very wide defintion of " self defence" 

but that said, its a good idea to have your essential docs in one place, its an even better idea to have them in a bank vault somewhere, in case the fire is in your house, a hospital bag packed for each person might be a slightly over the top solution, you can always buy some soap, towels and a change of clothes and some dog food if you are desperate

you need to be able to lay your hands on anything irreplaceable quickly, after that you can make it up as you go along provide d that you have credit cards/ cash,


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## Danny T (Nov 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> i think you are over being dramatic, a fire THREE miles away, is hardly on your door step and really struggles to come under even a very wide defintion of " self defence"
> 
> but that said, its a good idea to have your essential docs in one place, its an even better idea to have them in a bank vault somewhere, in case the fire is in your house, a hospital bag packed for each person might be a slightly over the top solution, you can always buy some soap, towels and a change of clothes and some dog food if you are desperate
> 
> you need to be able to lay your hands on anything irreplaceable quickly, after that you can make it up as you go along provide d that you have credit cards/ cash,


So you have never been in a situation where there was an emergency mass evacuation. Doesn't mean one is being over dramatic. Chemical fire along with winds can cause major problems for miles. Never been in a situation where the electric grid in a large area was down for several days? Credit cards may not work and getting cash becomes very difficult, fuel and other supplies may not available or be difficult to aquire. It happens so some like being prepared. See it often with the hurricanes, tornadoes, & subsequent flooding that frequent our area.


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## jobo (Nov 23, 2017)

Danny T said:


> So you have never been in a situation where there was an emergency mass evacuation. Doesn't mean one is being over dramatic. Chemical fire along with winds can cause major problems for miles. Never been in a situation where the electric grid in a large area was down for several days? Credit cards may not work and getting cash becomes very difficult, fuel and other supplies may not available or be difficult to aquire. It happens so some like being prepared. See it often with the hurricanes, tornadoes, & subsequent flooding that frequent our area.


but HE  wasn't  in a chemical fire and nether was the power grid for the whole,state down. he doesn't even mention a light drizzle and a mild breeze so hurricanes seems out, yet he tells the,story like it was a,zombie apocalypse . He even put the cat in a box, dear God it must have been life and death

you are even given notice, like "hurricane on way" , in which case you can you can take your time and pack what you need, or its evacuate NOW, in which case you grab your credit card and car keys and get the hell out. You would be a might unlucky to face a chemical fire, floods power black out and fuel strike all on the same day. 
i once got stuck on my holidays at Whitby by a fuel strike, it was a terrible ordeal, i had to ring work and tell them i wouldn't be back, book a b&b and spend another week there going on nice walks eating fish and chips and drinking beer. Worse Experiance of my life


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## Charlemagne (Nov 23, 2017)

Totally agree.  Preparedness is a huge part of the self-defense mindset, and goes well beyond Martial Arts.  Interestingly, and disappointingly, there are times when leaving is simply impossible.  In my own experience in Hurricane Katrina (Baton Rouge thankfully, not New Orleans), by the time my school got around to canceling things there was not any possibility of leaving even if we had desired to.  Every hotel between there and Dallas was packed full, and all of the gas stations were out of gas, plus the interstates and highways were bumper to bumper traffic.  

It's a complex situation, and sometimes there are no good options, just less bad ones.


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## Danny T (Nov 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> but HE  wasn't  in a chemical fire and nether was the power grid for the whole,state down. he doesn't even mention a light drizzle and a mild breeze so hurricanes seems out, yet he tells the,story like it was a,zombie apocalypse . He even put the cat in a box, dear God it must have been life and death
> 
> you are even given notice, like "hurricane on way" , in which case you can you can take your time and pack what you need, or its evacuate NOW, in which case you grab your credit card and car keys and get the hell out. You would be a might unlucky to face a chemical fire, floods power black out and fuel strike all on the same day.
> i once got stuck on my holidays at Whitby by a fuel strike, it was a terrible ordeal, i had to ring work and tell them i wouldn't be back, book a b&b and spend another week there going on nice walks eating fish and chips and drinking beer. Worse Experiance of my life


Unfortunate for you your life having been so boring.


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## jobo (Nov 23, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Unfortunate for you your life having been so boring.


i wouldn't say that , i was once attacked by a very cross,swan


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## drop bear (Nov 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> i wouldn't say that , i was once attacked by a very cross,swan




Did you know google images has nothing appropriate for swanpocalypse.

A bit disapointed to be honest.


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## drop bear (Nov 23, 2017)

I recently went through cyclone debbie.






And i still found time to bash aikido. 

That is preparedness.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I recently went through cyclone debbie.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Having grown up in an era when the "Debbie Does Dallas" porn movies got started, a hurricane Debbie is more creepy than frightening.


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## drop bear (Nov 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Having grown up in an era when the "Debbie Does Dallas" porn movies got started, a hurricane Debbie is more creepy than frightening.



There were a lot of gags made at the time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> There were a lot of gags made at the time.


I can only imagine. And you guys are generally less prudish than us.


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## Steve (Nov 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> There were a lot of gags made at the time.


I thought the entire point was that Debbie never gags.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 23, 2017)

Steve said:


> I thought the entire point was that Debbie never gags.


That. Is. Awful.


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## Steve (Nov 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That. Is. Awful.


Couple glasses of wine might be responsible.


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## Martial D (Nov 23, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> This happened last night - about 3 miles from my house.  We could hear explosion and then the roar of the fire, which resulted in evacuation orders for the neighborhood next to ours to the south.  A gas main blew up, and it made a crater in the ground 18 feet deep, they say.
> 
> Surveillance video shows explosion, massive fire in Orion Twp.
> 
> ...



I remember one sunday morning waking up to a fire alarm. I lived in a large building of condos and as it so happens, they were scheduled to run tests on the fire alarm system that day, so I didn't think much of it. 5 mins later there was a pounding on my door, to which I (somewhat annoyed) went outside to see what was the matter.

I spent the rest of the day watching the building burn down, the top two floors obliterated. Luckilly for me I lived on the second, so not everything was destroyed. I didn't go back there for two weeks, at which point I recovered what I could (not much, but I did save my sword collection) under the supervision of the fire dept.

I got out with just my wallet and my keys. That's it.

The point? Well firstly, this had nothing to do with self defense, but if we were to use it as a metaphor, the lesson would be you don't always know what a situation even is until it's too late.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

I think Jobo  makes at least one (maybe two) valid points. Preparedness for disaster is worth considering, and we should all have these conversations to decide what level of preparedness is appropriate for us. But I don’t see it as linked to self-defense, except in mindset. The first aid training topic is a bit closer, and I know instructors who require first aid and CPR certification for their senior students.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

Martial D said:


> I remember one sunday morning waking up to a fire alarm. I lived in a large building of condos and as it so happens, they were scheduled to run tests on the fire alarm system that day, so I didn't think much of it. 5 mins later there was a pounding on my door, to which I (somewhat annoyed) went outside to see what was the matter.
> 
> I spent the rest of the day watching the building burn down, the top two floors obliterated. Luckilly for me I lived on the second, so not everything was destroyed. I didn't go back there for two weeks, at which point I recovered what I could (not much, but I did save my sword collection) under the supervision of the fire dept.
> 
> ...


Wow. That’sa situation I could get myself into, if I knew there were tests planned. I’m glad someone followed up with the banging on the door.


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## jobo (Nov 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think Jobo  makes at least one (maybe two) valid points. Preparedness for disaster is worth considering, and we should all have these conversations to decide what level of preparedness is appropriate for us. But I don’t see it as linked to self-defense, except in mindset. The first aid training topic is a bit closer, and I know instructors who require first aid and CPR certification for their senior students.


when i was 11 i got 10 shilling( not an inconsiderable amount at the time) from my aunt, for my birthday

, my father  decieded that it was best to take it off me for safe keeping, which meant i would never see it again as he would spend it on beer( not the first time that had happened), i grabbed the money and legged it, and went shopping ,

i returned with all sorts of stuff that an 11 year old wanted, knives catapult a magnifying glass, but i spent the bulk of it on a on a storm lantern for camping  , i my dad went mad at me accusing me of woeful waste and being an idiot. Not the first or the last time we had that conversation

6 months later the country had mass black outs doe to a power strike and you couldn't buy a torch or a battery or a candle for love nor money. We were the only people  in the street,who had light, thanks tp my lantern, even my dad had to admit it was a good purchase. I still have it 47 years later just waiting for the next power cut. I think that was a good buy for 7 and 6


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## Danny T (Nov 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think Jobo  makes at least one (maybe two) valid points. Preparedness for disaster is worth considering, and we should all have these conversations to decide what level of preparedness is appropriate for us. But I don’t see it as linked to self-defense, except in mindset. The first aid training topic is a bit closer, and I know instructors who require first aid and CPR certification for their senior students.


There several definitions for the term ‘self defense’ some define it as fighting in some manner. Some define it as a countermeasure that involves defending the health and well-being of oneself from harm. Therefore is more than being in a physical confrontation. Then there is the legal definitions which again vary depending on the situation, court, and law being applied. (Putting forth a defense of one’s self in court, for example, has nothing to do with punching or kicking.) I usually use the term personal protection along with self defense because I tend to take a broad view as to what is self defense.


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## jobo (Nov 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> There several definitions for the term ‘self defense’ some define it as fighting in some manner. Some define it as a countermeasure that involves defending the health and well-being of oneself from harm. Therefore is more than being in a physical confrontation. Then there is the legal definitions which again vary depending on the situation, court, and law being applied. (Putting forth a defense of one’s self in court, for example, has nothing to do with punching or kicking.) I usually use the term personal protection along with self defense because I tend to take a broad view as to what is self defense.


if you take to broad a defintion of self defence it becomes meaningless, carrying an umbrella in case it rains is not really self defence, nor is having a torch in the car in case you break down or wet wipes or a spare shirt,

I'm prepared  to admit that preparing to deal with acute physical danger to yourself or a loved on MIGHT be an acceptable defintion, but that wouldnt really include booking into a hotel as there is a fire three miles away, that's just paranoid


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## Danny T (Nov 24, 2017)

I don’t think he was in extreme fear. He was being deliberate in having a place to take his family ‘if’ his neighborhood were to be evacuated next (the one next to his had already been evacuated). Don’t know his situation as to accommodations or available,  doesn’t matter. He felt it prudent to be ready. I’ll not fault him for that. Your opinion is different. That said preparedness alone I would not consider self defense just as I would not consider going to the shooting range as self defense. Would that be extremely fearful or paranoid (going out of ones way specifically to be prepared to use a firearm if need be)?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> There several definitions for the term ‘self defense’ some define it as fighting in some manner. Some define it as a countermeasure that involves defending the health and well-being of oneself from harm. Therefore is more than being in a physical confrontation. Then there is the legal definitions which again vary depending on the situation, court, and law being applied. (Putting forth a defense of one’s self in court, for example, has nothing to do with punching or kicking.) I usually use the term personal protection along with self defense because I tend to take a broad view as to what is self defense.


I'd say the most common definition (broader than my own) would center around avoiding being a victim of crime. I don't have an issue with folks being prepared and/or recommending preparedness to others. I just don't see it as a direct part of "self defense", and take issue with the strong language some use regarding that link. The mindset link is valid, and I accept that some folks are more conscientious about all of these matters. That's a personal decision, though, and I don't accept the premise that the two are on equal footing for all. I have very basic preparedness. We have a fire extinguisher and basic first aid/CPR training. We keep good first aid kits in key places (backpacking supplies, cars, house). We've discussed what a bug-out might look like, and have made very basic preparation for it (one container that we would need to grab, everything else depends upon how much time we have). Beyond that, I don't personally have a need. I see it as Jobo does - I can manage as long as my wife and I (and as many pets as we can manage) get out.


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## Steve (Nov 24, 2017)

Reasonable precautions are a good idea.  I’m a little bothered frankly, by the attitude toward the neighbors.   Too stupid to live is just no okay to say, IMO.   

Regarding the level of preparedness, this can easily be taken too far.   One of my neighbors had a small shelter installed below his garage at great expense.   Will he ever need it?  Maybe, and boy won’t I regret not having one.  

I think reasonable preparations for things that have a reasonable chance of occurring is a good idea, but it can easily be taken too far.   In Seattle, we haven’t had a sizable earthquake for many years (2001 or so).  But we know it’s a matter of time.   Fresh water.  Durable food in the cupboard.  Enough to get the family through 4 or 5 days if needed.   A plan for the animals.   Make sure everyone knows where to meet outside and who to call out of state in case we get split up.  Documents in a safe place?  Sure.  

It’s easy to focus on the wrong stuff.


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## Steve (Nov 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'd say the most common definition (broader than my own) would center around avoiding being a victim of crime. I don't have an issue with folks being prepared and/or recommending preparedness to others. I just don't see it as a direct part of "self defense", and take issue with the strong language some use regarding that link. The mindset link is valid, and I accept that some folks are more conscientious about all of these matters. That's a personal decision, though, and I don't accept the premise that the two are on equal footing for all. I have very basic preparedness. We have a fire extinguisher and basic first aid/CPR training. We keep good first aid kits in key places (backpacking supplies, cars, house). We've discussed what a bug-out might look like, and have made very basic preparation for it (one container that we would need to grab, everything else depends upon how much time we have). Beyond that, I don't personally have a need. I see it as Jobo does - I can manage as long as my wife and I (and as many pets as we can manage) get out.


Exactly.  We are the same.    Are we too stupid to live?   According to some, apparently.  Is this self defense?  Well, if we want to further muddy the waters.

Regarding what is self defense, I have come to define self defense much as you do, and I’d add that the nature of the crimes is personal and intentional.  So, for example, being a heroin addict causes a lot of harm, but that harm isn’t itself a nexus to self defense.  The link between heroin addiction and self defense is the higher risk for assault, rape. Muggings or homocide.   

If you follow safety regulations at work, you are going to be less likely to be injured or killed on the job.   That’s not self defense, IMO, even though the actions will make you safer.  Now, if you have a plan for when the looters come after an earthquake.... or better yet, how to make the shop less of a target for looters.  I think that’s closer to self defense.   

So, in this thread, I would say that the stuff covered in the OP isn’t self defense as it relates to bugging out and feeling superior to all one’s neighbors.   How one could mitigate risk of being a victim of a crime... that to me is closer to self defense as it relates To people defending themselves and their property from other people who are acting unlawfully.


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## jobo (Nov 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Reasonable precautions are a good idea.  I’m a little bothered frankly, by the attitude toward the neighbors.   Too stupid to live is just no okay to say, IMO.
> 
> Regarding the level of preparedness, this can easily be taken too far.   One of my neighbors had a small shelter installed below his garage at great expense.   Will he ever need it?  Maybe, and boy won’t I regret not having one.
> 
> ...


he has made the mistake of telling you about his,shelter, if there is ever a SERIOUS need for a shelter insist on sharing or take it off him


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 24, 2017)

Martial D said:


> I remember one sunday morning waking up to a fire alarm. I lived in a large building of condos and as it so happens, they were scheduled to run tests on the fire alarm system that day, so I didn't think much of it. 5 mins later there was a pounding on my door, to which I (somewhat annoyed) went outside to see what was the matter.
> 
> I spent the rest of the day watching the building burn down, the top two floors obliterated. Luckilly for me I lived on the second, so not everything was destroyed. I didn't go back there for two weeks, at which point I recovered what I could (not much, but I did save my sword collection) under the supervision of the fire dept.
> 
> ...



How is it not self-defense? Also, I'm sorry that happened to you.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> I don’t think he was in extreme fear. He was being deliberate in having a place to take his family ‘if’ his neighborhood were to be evacuated next (the one next to his had already been evacuated). Don’t know his situation as to accommodations or available,  doesn’t matter. He felt it prudent to be ready. I’ll not fault him for that. Your opinion is different. That said preparedness alone I would not consider self defense just as I would not consider going to the shooting range as self defense. Would that be extremely fearful or paranoid (going out of ones way specifically to be prepared to use a firearm if need be)?


Anyone who has ever tried to find two panicked cats in a hurry knows you have to scoop them up before things start moving quickly.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'd say the most common definition (broader than my own) would center around avoiding being a victim of crime. I don't have an issue with folks being prepared and/or recommending preparedness to others. I just don't see it as a direct part of "self defense", and take issue with the strong language some use regarding that link. The mindset link is valid, and I accept that some folks are more conscientious about all of these matters. That's a personal decision, though, and I don't accept the premise that the two are on equal footing for all. I have very basic preparedness. We have a fire extinguisher and basic first aid/CPR training. We keep good first aid kits in key places (backpacking supplies, cars, house). We've discussed what a bug-out might look like, and have made very basic preparation for it (one container that we would need to grab, everything else depends upon how much time we have). Beyond that, I don't personally have a need. I see it as Jobo does - I can manage as long as my wife and I (and as many pets as we can manage) get out.



I read the news. People have died going back into burning buildings to save family members who were already out, but standing elsewhere. Sounds like more than a general discussion is in order, but that's me, I guess.


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## jobo (Nov 24, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Anyone who has ever tried to find two panicked cats in a hurry knows you have to scoop them up before things start moving quickly.


why not fit them with a GPS tracker? that way you can located them when tshtf, now that's being prepared


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## Steve (Nov 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> he has made the mistake of telling you about his,shelter, if there is ever a SERIOUS need for a shelter insist on sharing or take it off him


Lol.  I saw him installing it.  Hard to hide digging out your garage to install a prefab shelter.  Major construction.   I expect he’s pretty well armed, so I’ll have to consider carefully how I plan to invade his fortress in the event of a zombie apocalypse,


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 24, 2017)

I find it interesting how some quibble over the term 'self-defense' as if that changes the logic of being prepared for foreseeable threats to one's life or health. Call it a jelly donut, most of us are far more likely to face a kitchen grease fire than a mugging. That is simple threat analysis.

I also like the reducto ad absurdum argument from the trolls. No, an umbrella against rain isn't self-defense, nor have I ever said that. Having a working fire extinguisher and knowing how to use it is no less self-defense than carrying a firearm and knowing how to use it. Both are intended to defend one's life in emergency. Both are examples of self-defense. One is far more likely than the other to be needed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I read the news. People have died going back into burning buildings to save family members who were already out, but standing elsewhere. Sounds like more than a general discussion is in order, but that's me, I guess.


There are only two of us, so a general discussion tends to include things like that.


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## Steve (Nov 24, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I find it interesting how some quibble over the term 'self-defense' as if that changes the logic of being prepared for foreseeable threats to one's life or health. Call it a jelly donut, most of us are far more likely to face a kitchen grease fire than a mugging. That is simple threat analysis.
> 
> I also like the reducto ad absurdum argument from the trolls. No, an umbrella against rain isn't self-defense, nor have I ever said that. Having a working fire extinguisher and knowing how to use it is no less self-defense than carrying a firearm and knowing how to use it. Both are intended to defend one's life in emergency. Both are examples of self-defense. One is far more likely than the other to be needed.


Disagreeing with you isn’t trolling, and the suggestion says more about you than anyone else.  Using dismissive language like quibbling is more trolling behavior than disagreeing with you and trying to explain why. 

You have a particular definition of self defense.   One of literally dozens.  You’re welcome to it.  But don’t expect everyone to just agree with you. You’ve applied some thought to the idea.   So have others.

Having a working fire extinguisher isn’t self defense, in my opinion, because it doesn’t relate to a crime.  Maybe it’s a jelly donut.  Certainly it’s a good idea.  But it’s not self defense.  If having a fire extinguisher reduced the likelihood of being victimized in a  crime, I’d agree that it’s self defense.   I don’t see the link.

And calling your neighbors too stupid to live kind of starts the entire thread off with a certain tone.


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## jobo (Nov 24, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I find it interesting how some quibble over the term 'self-defense' as if that changes the logic of being prepared for foreseeable threats to one's life or health. Call it a jelly donut, most of us are far more likely to face a kitchen grease fire than a mugging. That is simple threat analysis.
> 
> I also like the reducto ad absurdum argument from the trolls. No, an umbrella against rain isn't self-defense, nor have I ever said that. Having a working fire extinguisher and knowing how to use it is no less self-defense than carrying a firearm and knowing how to use it. Both are intended to defend one's life in emergency. Both are examples of self-defense. One is far more likely than the other to be needed.


fire extinguisher are really for protection of property, as a general rule, if you need a Fe to escape then its to late, your not putting an establish house fire out with a FE


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> fire extinguisher are really for protection of property, as a general rule, if you need a Fe to escape then its to late, your not putting an establish house fire out with a FE



I believe it is either to put out something like a trash can or not to advanced cooking fire, or to use to aid in getting out of the building you are in.  I have heard fire extinguishers useful for all three, but not more.  Most for the home only work for 30 seconds anyway. 

You are correct in that part of your sentence where a hand held fire extinguisher is not going to help put out an established house fire.


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## jobo (Nov 24, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I believe it is either to put out something like a trash can or not to advanced cooking fire, or to use to aid in getting out of the building you are in.  I have heard fire extinguishers useful for all three, but not more.  Most for the home only work for 30 seconds anyway.
> 
> You are correct in that part of your sentence where a hand held fire extinguisher is not going to help put out an established house fire.


more like 3 seconds from those commonly bought for the home, you get about 30 seconds from a great big commercial co2 extinguisher


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> more like 3 seconds from those commonly bought for the home, you get about 30 seconds from a great big commercial co2 extinguisher



Perhaps where you are from, I wouldn't know.  But in the USA, 30 seconds is considered norm.  I don't see how you could put out anything bigger than a match stick in 3 seconds.


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## Danny T (Nov 24, 2017)

A 10lb home fire extinguisher will discharge for approx 20 seconds.
Many people purchase the small 2 or 3 lbs units which are quite inappropriate. Those last approx 3-5 seconds.


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## jobo (Nov 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> A 10lb home fire extinguisher will discharge for approx 20 seconds.
> Many people purchase the small 2 or 3 lbs units which are quite inappropriate. Those last approx 3-5 seconds.


indeed, even with a " big one" you ability to fight your way out of a burning building is some what limited


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> indeed, even with a " big one" you ability to fight your way out of a burning building is some what limited


Agreed. It might be enough to clear a path, but if the place is that engulfed, the heat and smoke are more of a problem than the active flames. I can imagine some very limited situations where that might be enough to escape, but nearly everything I can imagine is more about preventing spread and containing - which is back to your point of protecting assets, rather than people.


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## Martial D (Nov 24, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> How is it not self-defense? Also, I'm sorry that happened to you.


Last Christmas actually. Almost a year now.

It's ok I had good insurance. 

As for SD, if you start defining that broadly stepping over potholes and making sure to turn the light on before walking through a room is self defense. Self defense all day long. Lift with your legs, not your back..self defense!


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## drop bear (Nov 24, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Last Christmas actually. Almost a year now.
> 
> It's ok I had good insurance.
> 
> As for SD, if you start defining that broadly stepping over potholes and making sure to turn the light on before walking through a room is self defense. Self defense all day long. Lift with your legs, not your back..self defense!



Lifting with your legs is so self defence.

Most of fighting can be countered with good structure.


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## Brian King (Nov 25, 2017)

In addition to our own preparedness, I also try to know which neighbors might need help. Next door neighbor is in his 90's but kind of a jerk years ago. A few houses down on the other side of the street nice older lady, large family but they live miles away. A few houses away on the opposite side of us is a family with a large developmentally disabled young man, etc.
Helping others during crises helps keep the head clear and the focus umm focused.

Regards
Brian King


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## Buka (Nov 28, 2017)

We live on the side of a volcano, on an island in the middle of nowhere. Have a bug out bag at home, and my wife and I have small ones in our vehicles. Fortunately, she has a four wheel drive truck, which would probably be crucial given the roads here [small] and the topography [rocky]. Back in the nineties we hatched out plans, where to meet if we were apart, who to go get, where food was growing wild. Our bug out bags were much larger then, we had dogs. Easier right now. [until the next dog.] My wife recently bought an emergency radio, one of those hand crank jobs. Used to have one, have no idea what happened to it.

Used to think about these things more when I was younger. Don't much care any more, which is why my bug out bag has some things in it specifically for my own personal amusement. Might as well have some giggles - when running for your life and screaming in fear!


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