# Kicks!!!  How many of what kind are needed for self defense.



## Kframe (Mar 19, 2013)

Hi, I want to start this thread as a alternative to my thread in TKD. I do plan on taking the intro class, but Just in case, for some reason it does not work out in TKD, what kicks should I consider adding to my arsenal. Im currently un happy with my long range weapons and tactics. My new MMA coach(who is focused on this as a self defense art)  is teaching me tactics and drills to deal with kickers and get in close were I am at my best.  I am not satisfied with only being able to fight at one range I need to be versatile. I want to be able to fight at all ranges. Now my coach only really focus's on a few kicks. I came to the new gym having learned the Front push and front snap kick and round kick(hybrid TKD style) having learned them from my previous mma gym.   The kicks I have learned just happen to be the kicks my new mma gym focus's on as well. 

My new coach is more then willing to stay after class and work on anything I want to work on. That includes kicks. I know right now my horrid flexibility will basicly limit me to what I already know and im ok with that. However I am actively working on my flexibility and it is improving. I would like, when the time is right with my flexibility, to fill in some gaps in my kicking.  

At my previous gym, I kinda stumbled apon the spinning back kick.  I was doing a kicking combo during sparring. Lead leg front kick, to rear leg round kick(impact on lower ribs) then I just turned around did what I thought was a good back kick. It landed firmly as well. My coach gave a affirming  nod of the head, and I knew I did it correctly.  Im not sure how it happened truthfully, I just saw a opening after the round kick. It just popped into my head to spin around on my foot that completed the round kick and throw the other back. 

I am attempting to learn the side kick, but my flexability is not to the point yet were I can use it. I was in my last sparring session at my former mma gym and used it, to less then good results. I was sparring the coach, and threw the lead leg side kick. My target was his chest, my hip flexability made my target his manhood..... It was a light to moderate contact sparring session.

So, when my flexability improves, what should I start practicing with my coach? Which ones should I consider and why?  This is only assuming the TKD class does not work out. Figured I would think ahead.. 

My goals are Primarily self defense, but I do at some point in the not so near future I want to do one cage fight.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 19, 2013)

If you have some kicks you personally like, or use often, practice them more.


----------



## Kframe (Mar 19, 2013)

Cyriacus, thanks for the imput sir. Well the only kicks I know are the ones mentioned. I shadow box my kicks every day. The front kick and low to mid round kick seam to be my bread and butter. I cant reach anyones head yet, so I don't try to do many high kicks. I have to lean WAY over to do them.  THe front push and snap don't have the power I would like, so I wanted the back kick and side kick to be my power linear kicks. Sadly I just don't have the hips to do them with any certainty above the waist. Sure low line kicks are easy for me, but I cant do them with to much power in sparring. Nor can I target my primary low lvl targets, which are man hood and front of knees. So I have to air drill those, and set up targets on the heavy bag at various heights and distances apart to simulate were in space ill be kicking


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 19, 2013)

How many kicks do you need for self defence? None. But if you do want to add some, keep the number small, keep them simple, keep them low, keep them powerful, and keep them versatile. I'd stick with two, personally, a stomp (to knees or ankles), and a shin kick (to the groin, inner thigh, outer thigh).

But really, you need&#8203; none.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 19, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Sure low line kicks are easy for me, but I cant do them with to much power in sparring. Nor can I target my primary low lvl targets, which are man hood and front of knees. So I have to air drill those, and set up targets on the heavy bag at various heights and distances apart to simulate were in space ill be kicking



Have you tried asking someone else in the class if theyd mind doing some very light sparring just so that you can practice targeting them on a human?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 19, 2013)

Work the sweep off the front leg, both, with the bottom and top of the foot.
Sean


----------



## Kframe (Mar 19, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Have you tried asking someone else in the class if theyd mind doing some very light sparring just so that you can practice targeting them on a human?



Thanks for the suggestion! No I have not, ill ask the coach and if he ok's it ill ask for help with VERY light contact sparring with those contact points. I really need experience targeting those points on a moving human, but darned I don't want to hurt anyone...


----------



## Kframe (Mar 19, 2013)

Touch of death, Could you elaborate on your post a bit. I would love to hear more on this line of thought from you sir.


----------



## Kframe (Mar 19, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> How many kicks do you need for self defence? None. But if you do want to add some, keep the number small, keep them simple, keep them low, keep them powerful, and keep them versatile. I'd stick with two, personally, a stomp (to knees or ankles), and a shin kick (to the groin, inner thigh, outer thigh).
> 
> But really, you need&#8203; none.



You don't think I need any? Hmmm I never thought of it like that.  Now Im wondering what the odds of someone throwing a half baked kick at me on the streets are. Its not hard to imitate a round kick seen on the UFC.   My friend at work, the golden glove boxer, got into a number of street fights in his youth. He had one person try to kick him and it was a crotch shot, done like a soccer kick. He said he just moved backwards out of the way.  

Hmm much to think about, Id ask my Father about this question, but I already know what he will say. He is TKD after all.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 19, 2013)

Is TKD for self defence, though....?

Really, having some basic defence against a kicking attacker is advisable (although it really doesn't need to be against a skilled attacker... just someone who's watched too much UFC, frankly), but you don't actually "need" any kicks yourself for self defence. I very rarely utilise any when I'm teaching self defence... it's almost all hands. That's not just for the common reasons (keeping balance, faster etc), but because most violent encounters occur at what is known as "interview distance"... approximately one to two handspans apart. From there, you're already at hands-range, before you're even engaged in the violence aspect. There's more, but that's the crux of it.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 19, 2013)

Kframe said:


> You don't think I need any? Hmmm I never thought of it like that.  Now Im wondering what the odds of someone throwing a half baked kick at me on the streets are. Its not hard to imitate a round kick seen on the UFC.   My friend at work, the golden glove boxer, got into a number of street fights in his youth. He had one person try to kick him and it was a crotch shot, done like a soccer kick. He said he just moved backwards out of the way.
> 
> Hmm much to think about, Id ask my Father about this question, but I already know what he will say. He is TKD after all.



You dont need anything. You can physically throw yourself at someone then smother them to death by laying on their face. That doesnt necessarily make it a good approach, or a bad one :drinkbeer


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 19, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Is TKD for self defence, though....?



The TKD I train is, yes.



Chris Parker said:


> Really, having some basic defence against a kicking attacker is advisable (although it really doesn't need to be against a skilled attacker... just someone who's watched too much UFC, frankly), but you don't actually "need" any kicks yourself for self defence. I very rarely utilise any when I'm teaching self defence... it's almost all hands. That's not just for the common reasons (keeping balance, faster etc), but because most violent encounters occur at what is known as "interview distance"... approximately one to two handspans apart. From there, you're already at hands-range, before you're even engaged in the violence aspect. There's more, but that's the crux of it.



While you don't "need" kicks, you also don't "need" a lot of other things. But they're a useful tool, just like all the other techniques we train in.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 19, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> The TKD I train is, yes.



Cool. What alterations have you made to it to make it designed for self defence, if any?



Dirty Dog said:


> While you don't "need" kicks, you also don't "need" a lot of other things. But they're a useful tool, just like all the other techniques we train in.



While I agree that there are a range of other things not "needed", I'd put kicking up there as a big one. Striking is the biggest (physical) skill needed, basic covering/jamming as well, and the ability to disengage quickly and safely, as well as basic weapon defence. Kicking is not something I'd focus on for self defence at all.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 19, 2013)

It's not so much that you need kicks for self defence it's more that they are good things to know if you want to use them (better to have something and not need it than to need something and not have it). The more types of kicks you know the less predictable you will be and the more options you will give yourself but you should concentrate on a few important ones. Front snap kicks and knee strikes are easy to learn and get power out of, side kicks and turning (round) kicks are a little harder to learn properly (especially side kick) but can be far more powerful and give you more angles to attack from so are worth knowing. You do not need to kick high for self defence, a good side kick to the side of the knee can stop just about anyone. The back kick is just about the most powerful kick you can learn (apart from a foot stomp) but requires you to turn you back briefly on your opponent but can be useful if you need to spin around to reacquire a target.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 19, 2013)

Yeah, this whole idea of "being unpredictable" in self defence is really irrelevant. Having a large repertoire, being unpredictable because the opponent doesn't know how to handle you is to not understand the realities of a violent assault... they don't last long enough for such things to be of any benefit.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 19, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Cool. What alterations have you made to it to make it designed for self defence, if any?
> 
> 
> 
> While I agree that there are a range of other things not "needed", I'd put kicking up there as a big one. Striking is the biggest (physical) skill needed, basic covering/jamming as well, and the ability to disengage quickly and safely, as well as basic weapon defence. Kicking is not something I'd focus on for self defence at all.



No changes are needed. Taekwondo includes everything you've mentioned, once you get past the idea that it's 'just a sport'. Your views on what works for self defense are colored by your training (as is true of all of us). There are circumstances where a kick is an ideal response, just as there are circumstances where kicking would be foolish.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 20, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Touch of death, Could you elaborate on your post a bit. I would love to hear more on this line of thought from you sir.


Well, you might notice that when you throw back-knuckles at your opponent, their head will rock back, and often times they will shift their weight on to their back leg. This is a great time to launch in with a round house kick to the back of the leg just above the ankle. If his weight isn't off the leg you can aim the same kick a little higher and actually move yourself off the line of attack with the force of the kick.
Sean


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 20, 2013)

While not absolutely essential, I think some kicking skills are a good self defense practice.  There may be times you have to defend yourself while your hands are occupied, and a well timed kick when you've been grabbed may buy you the room to do something else.  That said -- you really only need one or 2 kicks for self defense.  

Chris has an important point with his comment about being unpredictable.  Unpredictable helps in sparring and set fights or duels.  It's not necessary in self defense because, almost by definition, you'll be working from another timing, and if it goes on long enough that you need to "be unpredictable" -- one of you has done something pretty wrong.


----------



## Danny T (Mar 20, 2013)

Martial Arts training, self-defense training, and training for the cage/ring are all different mental attitudes. Some of the physical actions are the same, some are similar, however the mental attitude toward what one is training and the manner one trains is not. Chris is correct in most violent action happens far to close and quickly to utilize most of what many martial arts train. Though kicks can be very effective in the open areas of sparring and in sporting events they are not the most effective in the tight confines of the home, in alleyways, buses/subways/autos, offices, stairways, bushes, etc. Stomps, Knees, and elbows are much better suited for the close quarters where most violent actions occur. If one is at a distance that a kick would be effective, a slight step back and to the side completely disengages the attack there by defending yourself. Kick and you are now complicit in the fight.

Self-defense and cage fighting are two completely different animals do not mistake them. Something one of my fighters said after being attacked at a remote site (he was fishing) by 3 individuals as he was returning to his vehicle. "With all the cage experience I have, when I had a gun to my head I suddenly realized I didn't know a damn thing about defending myself and was completely at their mercy."


----------



## martial sparrer (Mar 20, 2013)

how many kicks deprends on flexibility and years of practice.  if you want to be a good kicker stretch your groin area and hip flexors.  I like these basic ones:  high front kick to face, side to knee and side to abdomen, roundhouse to ribs and round to head, high heel kick and heel kick to ribs.  more advanced but still pretty basic is spinning heel, spin side, high spinning heel to head, high side to head.  but if yu ask any blackbelt they will tell you kicking to the head makes no sense.  enjoy your kicking journey.  the best book to learn is THE ESSENTIAL MARTIAL ARTS KICK BOOK - written by 2 blackbelt karate guys from Israel.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 20, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, this whole idea of "being unpredictable" in self defence is really irrelevant. Having a large repertoire, being unpredictable because the opponent doesn't know how to handle you is to not understand the realities of a violent assault... they don't last long enough for such things to be of any benefit.



I understand the realities of a violent assault just fine. Most physical altercations only last a few seconds - yes, but not all.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 20, 2013)

martial sparrer said:


> how many kicks deprends on flexibility and years of practice.  if you want to be a good kicker stretch your groin area and hip flexors.  I like these basic ones:  high front kick to face, side to knee and side to abdomen, roundhouse to ribs and round to head, high heel kick and heel kick to ribs.  more advanced but still pretty basic is spinning heel, spin side, high spinning heel to head, high side to head.  but if yu ask any blackbelt they will tell you kicking to the head makes no sense.  enjoy your kicking journey.  the best book to learn is THE ESSENTIAL MARTIAL ARTS KICK BOOK - written by 2 blackbelt karate guys from Israel.



Yeah... I'd disagree with those as being anything to do with self defence.... no matter how many "black belt karate guys from Israel" say it.



RTKDCMB said:


> I understand the realities of a violent assault well enough. Most physical altercations only last a few seconds - yes, but not all.



Hmm. Well, your entire post goes against what every single serious self defence instructor I've ever seen, met, trained under, talked with, or anything else say, so I'm not so sure. The idea of "more is better" is really not correct, as well as the whole unpredictable thing....


----------



## EddieCyrax (Mar 20, 2013)

My go-to kick would be the side-thrust kick.  For self-defense I would target my attacker's knees.  In a class setting, ribs and solar plexis are also a targets of choice.

Very powerful kick that can easily blow out someone's knee.


----------



## geezer (Mar 20, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, this whole idea of "being unpredictable" in self defence is really irrelevant. Having a large repertoire, being unpredictable because the opponent doesn't know how to handle you is to not understand the realities of a violent assault... they don't last long enough for such things to be of any benefit.



_@Kframe: _Personally, I think Chris covered this topic really well. As I read it,  what he's said boils down to this:

1. You don't need kicks for self defense, but you do need to be able to defend against them.
2. If you choose to train kicks for self defense, keep them simple and keep them low (groin, knee, etc.).
3. You don't need a large repertoire. In fact you should train the opposite. Train a few simple, bomb-proof moves until you are consistently fast, powerful and can do them reliably even under extreme stress.

There's only one thing I'd like to clarify. I totally agree that you _don't_ need to worry about "being unpredictable" as you would in sparring or competition where your opponent has a chance to observe your habits and adapt his tactics to exploit your weaknesses. A self defense situation should be over in a flash, before your attacker has any chance to adapt and counter. However for that to occur, you absolutely want to be "unpredictable" _at the outset_ and take advantage of the element of surprise. 

Check out the following video with Lee Morrison, especilly, from about 2:00 on where he demonstrates the use of "artiface" in self defense:


----------



## KenpoDave (Mar 20, 2013)

Front, side, round, and back kicks. Thrust and snap variations.

Training those will reveal to you what you are good at, what is effective for you, and what is not.

You may drop them altogether. You may have the ability to knock people out at close range with head kicks. The answer to your question is on the mat. People on the forums can only tell you what is or is not effective for themselves. Effective kicking is not in the repertoire of everyone, but don't discard it before you really give it a try.

Your legs are much stronger than your arms, longer,and capable of targeting anywhere from foot to head from a standing position. But, not everyone has the ability to develop that potential.


Dave Hopper


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 20, 2013)

KenpoDave said:


> Front, side, round, and back kicks. Thrust and snap variations.
> 
> Training those will reveal to you what you are good at, what is effective for you, and what is not.
> 
> ...


If you do follow this line of thinking, or even if you don't, learn to fall. This skill will also come in useful during those battles with yourself and a slippery surface.


----------



## GaryR (Mar 20, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> How many kicks do you need for self defence? None. But if you do want to add some, keep the number small, keep them simple, keep them low, keep them powerful, and keep them versatile. I'd stick with two, personally, a stomp (to knees or ankles), and a shin kick (to the groin, inner thigh, outer thigh).
> 
> But really, you need&#8203; none.



I couldn't agree more with Chris here.  If your serious about self defense drop the spin kick fantasies, etc., it's tournament fodder.  

A good knee / angle stomp, or learning to use a good knee shot is worth doing.  Learn to coordinate the upper and lower so that you can be striking / engaging the hands at the same time your stomp is happening.  If you absolutely must learn another kick, a good front kick (not a high one) can be useful, learn how to use it while moving in and closing the distance. If it doesn't land it can continue down and turn into a knee/ankle stomp, or simply function as an exaggerated step in as you strike.

G


----------



## Kframe (Mar 20, 2013)

Thanks for the advice guys.  I will stick to what I know and what my coach teaches. It seams that the popular opinion is I don't need any, and if I do keep them low. Well that is ok with me because, low kicks are the only ones I can do consistently.   I will admit that I kinda do have a fantasy of being able to do spin kicks, but I don't think I want to waste any time on it.

So lets talk about low kicks. Im assuming the knee and groin are the obvious targets. Which side of the knee is the most vulnerable?  I know from personal experience that a hyper extended knee stinks for months... What about hits to the side of the knee or back of the knee?  What about the area I targeted in sparring the upper thigh?


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 20, 2013)

KenpoDave said:


> People on the forums can only tell you what is or is not effective for themselves.



I beg to differ, good sir. I cant use my right hands knuckles, and i still think punching is better than palming or elbowing


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 20, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Thanks for the advice guys.  I will stick to what I know and what my coach teaches. It seams that the popular opinion is I don't need any, and if I do keep them low. Well that is ok with me because, low kicks are the only ones I can do consistently.   I will admit that I kinda do have a fantasy of being able to do spin kicks, but I don't think I want to waste any time on it.
> 
> So lets talk about low kicks. Im assuming the knee and groin are the obvious targets. Which side of the knee is the most vulnerable?  I know from personal experience that a hyper extended knee stinks for months... What about hits to the side of the knee or back of the knee?  What about the area I targeted in sparring the upper thigh?



Dont look at it like that. Kicking a knee is a means to an end. Just try not to hit the kneecap with the top of your foot and you should be good.


----------



## KenpoDave (Mar 20, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> I beg to differ, good sir. I cant use my right hands knuckles, and i still think punching is better than palming or elbowing



But you say, "I still think..." &#128516;

What you know is that for you, it is not.

The flipside is all the people who have not taken the time to develop effective kicks and then assume that kicking is not effective...for anyone.

But what they know, is that they cannot kick.

Projecting one's skill, or lack thereof, onto someone else is presumptuous,  and dangerous.


Dave Hopper


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 20, 2013)

KenpoDave said:


> But you say, "I still think..." &#62980;
> 
> What you know is that for you, it is not.
> 
> ...



Mate, i am effective with them. Im physically incapable of anything else. And i used to adore kicking, then for reasons other than function discounted it.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 20, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Thanks for the advice guys.  I will stick to what I know and what my coach teaches. It seams that the popular opinion is I don't need any, and if I do keep them low. Well that is ok with me because, low kicks are the only ones I can do consistently.   I will admit that I kinda do have a fantasy of being able to do spin kicks, but I don't think I want to waste any time on it.
> 
> So lets talk about low kicks. Im assuming the knee and groin are the obvious targets. Which side of the knee is the most vulnerable?  I know from personal experience that a hyper extended knee stinks for months... What about hits to the side of the knee or back of the knee?  What about the area I targeted in sparring the upper thigh?



Who cares about what happens to the ******* who's attacked you?  I WANT him to hurt for months.  Hell -- depending on how seriously he's attacked me, I don't want him to EVER hurt again because he's assuming room temperature!  He's just friggin' attacked ME!  I most certainly will respond with sufficient force to stop the attack, and to make sure he won't attack me again.  Professionally, my goal is to survive, and subdue.  Privately -- drop the subdue.  I want the bad guy stopped, and me able to get away safely.  As soon as you've done that much damage -- run! 

Good targets for kicks?  Think about what's prohibited in sparring and tournament play.  Knees are vulnerable from either side or the front; the back is harder to hit and the direction it naturally bends.  I don't like the groin as primary target because it is not reliable; I've seen people lifted off the ground by a groin kick keep coming, and others barely grazed crumple.  I like the hip pocket, because it makes a mechanical failure long enough to let me do something else.  That's about as high as I'm likely to go -- with the exception of a single stomach/chest high kick intended solely to stop a charge.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 20, 2013)

OK so I will I will reiterate as succinctly as I can. First of all since certain people seem to get hung up on the smallest part of some of the things I post on this site, I will say one last thing on being unpredictable, It is better to be unpredictable than predictable, however if the person attacking you does not know anything about you or what you know or has little to no martial arts/fighting skills or the attack happens quickly and suddenly then the concept does not count for much. As for the original question on what kicks are needed for self defence? There is only one answer - none, you do not need any specific technique(s) for self defence and styles like Aikido, boxing and judo get along just fine without kicks. A better question would be what kicks are useful for self defence? The answer - any kick can be useful however some kicks are more useful than others. It depends on the situation and what you are most capable of. While it is good to know a variety of techniques, "any serious self defence teacher" will tell you the most important ones are the basics. If you get attacked it is not a jump spinning heel kick, 540 tornado kick or flying double backflip flash kick (if it exists) you will be looking for it will be the front kick, side kick, straight punch, low section block, knife hand strike etc that you'll want.


----------



## Kframe (Mar 20, 2013)

Jks, thanks for the information sir. I did not mean to sound like I cared what happened to the moron who attacked me. I was only stating that I knew how much a hyper extended knew stank.   Thank you for the thoughts on knee targets. I talked to my coach and he said in a future drill he will be dealing with knee kicks. He said that we will be using a downward stomping motion, with our foot parallel to the knee stomping on the side of the knee. With the intention of breaking it.


----------



## KenpoDave (Mar 20, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Mate, i am effective with them. Im physically incapable of anything else. And i used to adore kicking, then for reasons other than function discounted it.



I have no doubt. My point is simply that we all have our opinions, based on our own strengths, weaknesses, injuries, age, experience, and on and on.

I try not to discount what I can't do as being ineffective for others. I'm not saying that you do. However, there are posts on this thread that blur the line between "you don't need kicks for SD" and "you shouldn't waste time with kicks because they are ineffective in SD."

Self defense doesn't require any kicks. It does not require any strikes.  That said, no matter what techniques are in your arsenal, they will be ineffective if you are unable to access them during an adrenaline dump.

Self defense can be learned in a weekend. Learning, enhancing, and re calibrating the skills that are useful in self defense is ongoing.  

My point to the original poster is that everyone will advise based on their own opinions. We advise people to try what we like, and stay away from what does not work...for us. My advice is to take the four most basic kicks, develop them, then decide.

I am curious, it appears you have injured your hands rendering punching a no-no, but you said you discounted kicks for reasons other than function. Would you care to share why?


Dave Hopper


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 20, 2013)

It's important to remember that peoples attitudes will be influenced (even controlled) by their own training and experience. If your training is with guns, you will recommend a gun. If your training is with hand techniques, you will recommend hand techniques. If you're a kicker, you will recommend kicks.

Any technique, even the most complicated, can be effective under the right circumstances. And any technique, even the most simple, can be ineffective under the wrong circumstances.

Train in as many techniques as possible. Start with the simple and add more difficult techniques as your skills improve. No, that tornado kick is not appropriate for all circumstances. But it certainly *can* be appropriate. I've personally used kicks (and kicks aimed at targets higher than some people will ever accept as being useful) in self defense situations. I've also used low kicks. And punches. And open hand techniques. And grabs. And joint locks. And throws. And pressure points.

The more you know *and can apply effectively* the better off you will be.


----------



## martial sparrer (Mar 20, 2013)

I just read to forget spin kicks for self defense.  I do not agree because honestly if you have good balance and footwork a spin kick may be good for YOU.  for example I just finished sparring tonight.....and I threw some effective spin kicks and high rounds to my opponent.  these kicks can also be used to intimidate and back someone off.  the key is with spin kicks to finish the 360 degree rotation so you come full circle to not give up your back or limb so much.  the key to effective sparring and fighting is being able to problem solve quickly!


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 20, 2013)

KenpoDave said:


> I have no doubt. My point is simply that we all have our opinions, based on our own strengths, weaknesses, injuries, age, experience, and on and on.
> 
> I try not to discount what I can't do as being ineffective for others. I'm not saying that you do. However, there are posts on this thread that blur the line between "you don't need kicks for SD" and "you shouldn't waste time with kicks because they are ineffective in SD."
> 
> ...



In order;
I understand your point, but there are exceptions.
I made a comparison between something i can but dont do, and something i cant and dont do, but support anyway.

Ive discounted kicks because i seriously cant see any viable opportunity to use them if you dont have the space that you couldnt better use some other way. If you do have the space, you can close the gap and use that momentum to your advantage. While that doesnt mean that kicking is bad, it does mean that there is absolutely no situation where its necessary, unless you want it to be necessary. I brought up the comparison i have because as everyones been saying, you dont need kicks. That means a bit more than not needing them. If you want them, you can have them and you can make them work for you. If you dont want them, you wont feel the loss because youll just do something else instead. It means that while we all speak from experience, i dont need to be able to throw a punch to argue that its better than the alternatives, even though my use of the alternatives hit harder and more often than i ever used to with punches (figure that one out, logical people! there is actually a really simple reason though). Compared to discounting kicking despite being good at it (im a TKD guy, for those who arent aware) because i have yet to see any situation where its a better option than using your upper body, perhaps with the exception of various forms of grappling. That isnt me saying theyre bad, thats me saying that not only do you not need them, but theyre totally unnecessary. If you want to do them, however, i can say as someone who used to adore the things that you can make them work for you, in an assortment of ways.


----------



## GaryR (Mar 20, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> ...i dont need to be able to throw a punch to argue that its better than  the alternatives, even though my use of the alternatives hit harder and  more often than i ever used to with punches (figure that one out,  logical people! there is actually a really simple reason though)..



Ok, I'll bite!  What is your reasoning?  I like palm strikes better than punches for very specific reasons that I believe to be universally applicable.  But not always the same part of the palm.  For starters using that little bony bit on the bottom opposite thumb side (I believe it's called the pisiform bone), can put more force per square inch into the target and do more damage than a fist, with much less risk of injury to ones self. 



			
				Cyriacus said:
			
		

> Ive discounted kicks because i seriously cant see any viable opportunity  to use them if you dont have the space that you couldnt better use some  other way.



I agree with this for sure. It's refreshing to see a TKD guy say this!  I would echo that there are objectively better ways to approach things regardless of ones personal attributes.  Unless you have mastered everything else, kicking above the waste should not be bothered with.  (unless its for fun / tournaments of course).  

G


----------



## Mister Owl (Mar 21, 2013)

I know I haven't introduced myself in the forum, but I excuse myself by saying that I am not worth introducing.  However, I ask why no one has cited the Bruce Lee quote relative to this topic in this thread?  Is the quote worthless?


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 21, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Thanks for the advice guys.  I will stick to what I know and what my coach teaches. It seams that the popular opinion is I don't need any, and if I do keep them low. Well that is ok with me because, low kicks are the only ones I can do consistently.   I will admit that I kinda do have a fantasy of being able to do spin kicks, but I don't think I want to waste any time on it.
> 
> So lets talk about low kicks. Im assuming the knee and groin are the obvious targets. Which side of the knee is the most vulnerable?  I know from personal experience that a hyper extended knee stinks for months... What about hits to the side of the knee or back of the knee?  What about the area I targeted in sparring the upper thigh?



Primary targets will be (as I said earlier), the knees (the sides, either inside or outside, as the knee just doesn't bend that way... the front can work with a jamming kick, but that's best used as a "stopping" action) with a stomp, rather than a side-kick (more power, simpler, better balance etc), the groin (knees, shin kick) and inner and outer thighs (particularly the outer, aiming for the ITB, with knees primarily). Stomps can also work well against feet and ankles, but big, heavy boots (worn by the attacker) can negate a lot of the effect.



Cyriacus said:


> I beg to differ, good sir. I cant use my right hands knuckles, and i still think punching is better than palming or elbowing



Hmm, I don't know about that... I'd go for a palm over a fist in a heartbeat. And elbows are dictated by the range, rather than anything else... if you're in range for an elbow, you're probably too close for most other things.



Dirty Dog said:


> It's important to remember that peoples attitudes will be influenced (even controlled) by their own training and experience. If your training is with guns, you will recommend a gun. If your training is with hand techniques, you will recommend hand techniques. If you're a kicker, you will recommend kicks.
> 
> Any technique, even the most complicated, can be effective under the right circumstances. And any technique, even the most simple, can be ineffective under the wrong circumstances.
> 
> ...



While I don't disagree that there might be a place for anything under certain circumstances, or that the attitude/opinions will be coloured by the persons experience, I just can't agree with this advice. For the record, my background includes a number of years in TKD, where I was quite good at kicking methods, fast, powerful, accurate... but, when it all comes down to it, what influences my comments on what should be trained for self defence is more to do with what the needs for self defence are, what the effects of adrenaline are, what the legal situation is, what the realities of modern assaults are, and so on. Add to all of that understanding of the effectiveness of various training methods, and the advice of "train as many techniques as possible" just doesn't ring true. I mean, we could go to the standard quote of "I do not fear the man who has practiced 1,000 kicks, I fear the man who has practiced 1 kick 1,000 times", yeah? 1 or 2 powerful, versatile kicks trained solidly, is a far, far better approach to training for self defence than the alternative. It should be remembered that, for self defence, what is truly desired (talking only of the physical skill sets here, rather than the "soft skills") are a small number of high-return, low-risk methods, rather than a large number you can "choose" from... mainly as you often won't get an opportunity to "choose", as you'll be going on unconscious autopilot, with the unconscious only selecting what it feels (believes) is the most powerful option, with all else being left aside. If you only train a few methods, and ensure that they are all powerful, you're fine... if you train a whole mess of them, who knows what will come out.... if anything?



martial sparrer said:


> I just read to forget spin kicks for self defense.  I do not agree because honestly if you have good balance and footwork a spin kick may be good for YOU.  for example I just finished sparring tonight.....and I threw some effective spin kicks and high rounds to my opponent.  these kicks can also be used to intimidate and back someone off.  the key is with spin kicks to finish the 360 degree rotation so you come full circle to not give up your back or limb so much.  the key to effective sparring and fighting is being able to problem solve quickly!



I have to ask, though, how do you make that assessment? You list yourself as "karate, boxer white belt" in your profile, and using something in sparring is vastly different to using it in self defence, on almost every level. They really shouldn't be mistaken as being the same thing, or the tactics for one being useful for the other.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 21, 2013)

GaryR said:


> Ok, I'll bite!  What is your reasoning?  I like palm strikes better than punches for very specific reasons that I believe to be universally applicable.  But not always the same part of the palm.  For starters using that little bony bit on the bottom opposite thumb side (I believe it's called the pisiform bone), can put more force per square inch into the target and do more damage than a fist, with much less risk of injury to ones self.



An inquisitive nature! I like it.
This may be a bit winded, but im going to start with a very broad statement, then ill explain myself a bit. Knuckles are hard things, parts of the head and neck dont like being battered, and at close range blocking is impossible (with my definition of close range being body to body). At that same range, straight line punches are practically impossible as well. There are layers of redundancy - Knuckles miss, forearm hits. Theres a long winded version of that, but ill save it for later. Basically, your knuckles can be used to hit at angles the rest of your arm really cant, and have alot of incidental failsafes. Your knuckles protrude slightly from your fist, meaning that you need to actually miss with your knuckles in order to smack in your fingers. With an open hand of any sort, lets take a palm heel, if you miss, you can sprain your wrist by forcing it back, you can smack in the underside of your metacarpals, you can smack in your fingers if you have them bent, you can smack in your fingers if you have them extended, you can take your own thumb out, and you can end up with more of a push than a strike if youre too weak to do it 'properly'. Knuckles are hard things, and dont need as much effort, even if for some people they get more force out of a well done palm heel. If you have a desk, slowly (without accelerating. just a steady slow pace) stand up and hit it with your palm. With the exact same effort and speed, hit it with your knuckles. You get the result easier, and you dont need to unlearn the idea of relying on punches to do it. So, im not arguing potential power. Im bringing up how much power you can generate consistently.

Now, ive said palm heel, as in a straight thrust, compared with a straight line punch. Now, if we switch to a hooking shape. With your knuckles, you just bend your arm and punch. With a palm heel, there are, off the top of my head, three different ways you can position your hand, and each one will be better suited to a different range. With a punch, you just bend your arm as needed to get the right range. With a palm heel, you cant do a palm hook fingertips facing up or out at body to body range, but you can with your fingers facing toward you. Try it yourself! Just aim for something about 10cm in front of your face. Now, the fingers vertical tends to be ok if theres no obstacles between you and the target. The fingers outward is the most instinctive, but it only works at medium range. So, you basically have three different palm hooks for three different ranges, as opposed to one punch. With the straight line strike, that issue isnt as present. Now with uppercuts, the knuckles can uppercut in about three different ways (bolo, straight up, or a kind up palm vertical straight punch). The palm can hit straight up, or it wont really do anything. At first you seem to have the reverse problem, except that it isnt three punches. Its the same punch done from three different angles. With the palm heel, if you mess up the angle its a waste. With the punch, it just gets a different label stuck on it.
Ridgehands, axe hands, and fingertips all work, but they work with alot more caveats. With punching, its hard to mess up. Even if you break your knuckles, you could just as easily break your wrist, break your fingers, smack in the underside of your metacarpals, or not have enough speed for the surface to become hard enough to generate power.

I guess my point is that punching is more dependable, despite all of the things that can go wrong with it. If you make a mistake, the mistake just becomes a different way of doing the same thing. Throw a hook punch up close, go too far, and its a headlock. Throw a hook palm up close, go too far and you can grab their ear because your fingers stick out of your hand, or perhaps a handfull of their hair. Throw an uppercut and throw it wrong, and as long as it hits itll still do something. Swing a palm up and throw it wrong, and it wont do very much unless youre after a push.

Lastly, with a punch, all that changes is the angle you throw it. With open hands, youve got a plethora of hand formations and strike archetypes to go through.

Now ill praise palms briefly, so i dont sound like a complete douche, because im not putting them down. This is a praise of closed fists, not a critique of open hands. Forceful pushes can be a good thing, less range on your strikes can be a good thing, and theres nothing wrong with open hand work.



> I agree with this for sure. It's refreshing to see a TKD guy say this!  I would echo that there are objectively better ways to approach things regardless of ones personal attributes.  Unless you have mastered everything else, kicking above the waste should not be bothered with.  (unless its for fun / tournaments of course).
> 
> G



Aye.

Edited in PS: If im wrong about something here, tell me. I want to know. Of course its only my opinion that fists have benefits over open hands, im not trying to make it 'fact' or a 'single truth' or something silly like that. I explained my reasons specifically so that whether im right or wrong in that reasoning i can know why, not so i can defend the claim against all odds. You dont have to agree with the conclusion.

Edit 2: Case study. Hit the underside of your metacarpals into a solid wall at about 50% power.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 21, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, I don't know about that... I'd go for a palm over a fist in a heartbeat. And elbows are dictated by the range, rather than anything else... if you're in range for an elbow, you're probably too close for most other things.



Personally, i can hook punch from elbowing range comfortably. But, im not posing my word as law. I can sing the praises of open hand work as well


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 21, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> An inquisitive nature! I like it.
> This may be a bit winded, but im going to start with a very broad statement, then ill explain myself a bit. Knuckles are hard things, parts of the head and neck dont like being battered, and at close range blocking is impossible (with my definition of close range being body to body). At that same range, straight line punches are practically impossible as well. There are layers of redundancy - Knuckles miss, forearm hits. Theres a long winded version of that, but ill save it for later. Basically, your knuckles can be used to hit at angles the rest of your arm really cant, and have alot of incidental failsafes. Your knuckles protrude slightly from your fist, meaning that you need to actually miss with your knuckles in order to smack in your fingers. With an open hand of any sort, lets take a palm heel, if you miss, you can sprain your wrist by forcing it back, you can smack in the underside of your metacarpals, you can smack in your fingers if you have them bent, you can smack in your fingers if you have them extended, you can take your own thumb out, and you can end up with more of a push than a strike if youre too weak to do it 'properly'. Knuckles are hard things, and dont need as much effort, even if for some people they get more force out of a well done palm heel. If you have a desk, slowly (without accelerating. just a steady slow pace) stand up and hit it with your palm. With the exact same effort and speed, hit it with your knuckles. You get the result easier, and you dont need to unlearn the idea of relying on punches to do it. So, im not arguing potential power. Im bringing up how much power you can generate consistently.
> 
> Now, ive said palm heel, as in a straight thrust, compared with a straight line punch. Now, if we switch to a hooking shape. With your knuckles, you just bend your arm and punch. With a palm heel, there are, off the top of my head, three different ways you can position your hand, and each one will be better suited to a different range. With a punch, you just bend your arm as needed to get the right range. With a palm heel, you cant do a palm hook fingertips facing up or out at body to body range, but you can with your fingers facing toward you. Try it yourself! Just aim for something about 10cm in front of your face. Now, the fingers vertical tends to be ok if theres no obstacles between you and the target. The fingers outward is the most instinctive, but it only works at medium range. So, you basically have three different palm hooks for three different ranges, as opposed to one punch. With the straight line strike, that issue isnt as present. Now with uppercuts, the knuckles can uppercut in about three different ways (bolo, straight up, or a kind up palm vertical straight punch). The palm can hit straight up, or it wont really do anything. At first you seem to have the reverse problem, except that it isnt three punches. Its the same punch done from three different angles. With the palm heel, if you mess up the angle its a waste. With the punch, it just gets a different label stuck on it.
> ...



Yeah... uh, I'm not sure where to start with this. Knuckles, against a head, tend to break. Palms don't. Transfer of power is more reliable with a palm. Versatility of range is easier with a palm without compromising the structure of your arm, and far, far more.



Cyriacus said:


> Personally, i can hook punch from elbowing range comfortably. But, im not posing my word as law. I can sing the praises of open hand work as well



Then your range is out. If you're at actual elbow range, the hook will go behind the head... if the hook will land, you're outside of elbow range. If you're at elbow range, and you hit with the hook, then you've most likely compromised the angle of your arm (taking it closer than 90 degrees), which takes structural stability and power out of it.


----------



## K-man (Mar 21, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> As for the original question on what kicks are needed for self defence? There is only one answer - none, you do not need any specific technique(s) for self defence and styles like Aikido, boxing and judo get along just fine without kicks. A better question would be what kicks are useful for self defence? The answer - any kick can be useful however some kicks are more useful than others.


Just for your information. Aikido does use kicks from time to time.  Most times it is just the front kick.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 21, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah... uh, I'm not sure where to start with this. Knuckles, against a head, tend to break. Palms don't. Transfer of power is more reliable with a palm. Versatility of range is easier with a palm without compromising the structure of your arm, and far, far more.



I did comment that knuckles break. And its worth rementioning that open hands are what i use, for reasons mentioned previously. Its also of course possible that im perhaps backswinging a bit, and drawing a conclusion based on not caring about breaking your hands.



> Then your range is out. If you're at actual elbow range, the hook will go behind the head... if the hook will land, you're outside of elbow range. If you're at elbow range, and you hit with the hook, then you've most likely compromised the angle of your arm (taking it closer than 90 degrees), which takes structural stability and power out of it.



If the hook goes behind the head, you get a headlock or a forearm strike? (Thats posed as a question. I lack experiment partners right now)


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 21, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> While I don't disagree that there might be a place for anything under certain circumstances, or that the attitude/opinions will be coloured by the persons experience, I just can't agree with this advice. For the record, my background includes a number of years in TKD, where I was quite good at kicking methods, fast, powerful, accurate... but, when it all comes down to it, what influences my comments on what should be trained for self defence is more to do with what the needs for self defence are, what the effects of adrenaline are, what the legal situation is, what the realities of modern assaults are, and so on. Add to all of that understanding of the effectiveness of various training methods, and the advice of "train as many techniques as possible" just doesn't ring true. I mean, we could go to the standard quote of "I do not fear the man who has practiced 1,000 kicks, I fear the man who has practiced 1 kick 1,000 times", yeah? 1 or 2 powerful, versatile kicks trained solidly, is a far, far better approach to training for self defence than the alternative. It should be remembered that, for self defence, what is truly desired (talking only of the physical skill sets here, rather than the "soft skills") are a small number of high-return, low-risk methods, rather than a large number you can "choose" from... mainly as you often won't get an opportunity to "choose", as you'll be going on unconscious autopilot, with the unconscious only selecting what it feels (believes) is the most powerful option, with all else being left aside. If you only train a few methods, and ensure that they are all powerful, you're fine... if you train a whole mess of them, who knows what will come out.... if anything?



I should have clarified this, then. An inherent assumption in my position is that you're not talkiing about a weekend self-defense course, but rather are talking about the sort of people we all are, who train both consistently and over the long term. 

If you're talking about a stand alone weekend self defense course, then my position will be quite different. But I still won't rule out kicks completely.


----------



## Zero (Mar 21, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Chris, it is hard without pictures/diagrams to follow what you're saying but I would have to say I disagree with this (unless I have misunderstood you).  I am not a boxer but have trained with boxers to better my own hand skills, and a lot of the hooks they throw are very tight to their own body and very compact movements with the power and torque, as you know, generated from the hips and lats. These hooks will snap you jaw and can defintely be a KO.  An elbow in the same range can also easily be thrown and in almost the same movement as the compact hook, the elbow itself does come out a bit further due to the mechanics and its position but the elbow comes back in so the point of impact on the jaw is the same spot as that of the fist with the hook.  Before good TV coverage, it was not unkown for boxers (deliberately) to appear to execute a hook but actually connect with the elbow in this fasion, the better to cut the opponent or to KO them. Brutal and unsporting for a rules based sport but there you go.
> We train compact hooks in karate as well and actually a very tight hook (still devastating when thrown fast and correctly) can be a closer range weapon than an elbow.  Now obviously a wider hook would go behind the head if you are comparing this to an elbow strike but hooks can be thrown over varying ranges with equal effect and when a tight hook is thrown correctly, stability and power is not lost.
> Peace out


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 21, 2013)

Zero said:


> Chris, it is hard without pictures/diagrams to follow what you're saying but I would have to say I disagree with this (unless I have misunderstood you).  I am not a boxer but have trained with boxers to better my own hand skills, and a lot of the hooks they throw are very tight to their own body and very compact movements with the power and torque, as you know, generated from the hips and lats. These hooks will snap you jaw and can defintely be a KO.  An elbow in the same range can also easily be thrown and in almost the same movement as the compact hook, the elbow itself does come out a bit further due to the mechanics and its position but the elbow comes back in so the point of impact on the jaw is the same spot as that of the fist with the hook.  Before good TV coverage, it was not unkown for boxers (deliberately) to appear to execute a hook but actually connect with the elbow in this fasion, the better to cut the opponent or to KO them. Brutal and unsporting for a rules based sport but there you go.
> We train compact hooks in karate as well and actually a very tight hook (still devastating when thrown fast and correctly) can be a closer range weapon than an elbow.  Now obviously a wider hook would go behind the head if you are comparing this to an elbow strike but hooks can be thrown over varying ranges with equal effect and when a tight hook is thrown correctly, stability and power is not lost.
> Peace out



I wasnt going to argue that point until later, but i guess this works too


----------



## Kframe (Mar 21, 2013)

I have been practicing palm strikes with my coach, we do them as part of some of our drills for self defense.  I noticed that it costs me a few inches in range over my fist. The trade off is that it is safer and less likely to break my hand.  I Was in my warehouse(alone oddly) and decided to see what I could do with a palm strike. So I sauntered up to a skid of floor dry and had at it. I found that I could hit just as hard, as my fist, just lower range. Its not a lot of loss but, enough to throw me out of whack for a few moments. Its something im going to have to be aware of in the future.  

I also found that I could hit hard things, harder with a palm then a fist, with less pain.  Tho this just points out my need for more iron hand conditioning. 

Well everyone has there own opinion on kicking, and that is ok. My way of thinking is, I want to know as much as I can, so I can draw what ever tool may be needed.   I can see kicks higer then the legs, being usefull, just not being needed with any real quantity. Say my hands are other wised engaged in something(say grappling in my case, standing grappling) and I see another person entering the fray, a good mid level kick can be used to stop his momentum and help make distance. 

Talked to my father about this.(tkd bb) in all the uses of his TKD for self defense, he did not throw one single kick. Most were finished with unbalancing moves and hand techniques. Apparently more then a few with a single punch.  

Just more things for me to think about. Cant wait to see how my feelings evolve on this.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 21, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> I did comment that knuckles break. And its worth rementioning that open hands are what i use, for reasons mentioned previously. Its also of course possible that im perhaps backswinging a bit, and drawing a conclusion based on not caring about breaking your hands.



I'm not sure of anyone that would choose an approach that might break your hands over one that has almost no risk, when both provide equal power and effectiveness (although, honestly, I think an open hand is more effective), due to "not caring about breaking your hand".... why would you willingly sacrifice your hand when you don't need to?



Cyriacus said:


> If the hook goes behind the head, you get a headlock or a forearm strike? (Thats posed as a question. I lack experiment partners right now)



Well, if you go to that as a backup for the strike missing, you've moved away from effectiveness/reliability as a striking method, haven't you? So while you might be able to, why would you have that as a backup for a less-effective method, when a better, more reliable one, that doesn't require such a backup plan is there?



Dirty Dog said:


> I should have clarified this, then. An inherent assumption in my position is that you're not talkiing about a weekend self-defense course, but rather are talking about the sort of people we all are, who train both consistently and over the long term.
> 
> If you're talking about a stand alone weekend self defense course, then my position will be quite different. But I still won't rule out kicks completely.



No, I'm talking about constant and consistent training persons here. Mind you, as I've said many times, there's a huge gap between martial arts and self defence training... and the two shouldn't be thought of as the same thing. This is why I asked what alterations you made, if any... and honestly, Mark, I'd say you are making some... as I can't see how you aren't, if your training and teaching is geared up for self defence. I'm not saying your classes aren't designed that way, but to make it so, the distancing, set-ups, methods, attacks, and more needs to be altered from the way TKD teaches them.

I'll put it this way... my classes feature three sections. One is martial arts (unarmed), one is weaponry (which might be traditional [martial arts], or modern [self defence]), and the third is self defence. And, while the self defence's physical methods and tactics/strategies are informed by the martial arts side of things, it really is a completely different area of study.



Zero said:


> Chris, it is hard without pictures/diagrams to follow what you're saying but I would have to say I disagree with this (unless I have misunderstood you).  I am not a boxer but have trained with boxers to better my own hand skills, and a lot of the hooks they throw are very tight to their own body and very compact movements with the power and torque, as you know, generated from the hips and lats. These hooks will snap you jaw and can defintely be a KO.  An elbow in the same range can also easily be thrown and in almost the same movement as the compact hook, the elbow itself does come out a bit further due to the mechanics and its position but the elbow comes back in so the point of impact on the jaw is the same spot as that of the fist with the hook.  Before good TV coverage, it was not unkown for boxers (deliberately) to appear to execute a hook but actually connect with the elbow in this fasion, the better to cut the opponent or to KO them. Brutal and unsporting for a rules based sport but there you go.
> We train compact hooks in karate as well and actually a very tight hook (still devastating when thrown fast and correctly) can be a closer range weapon than an elbow.  Now obviously a wider hook would go behind the head if you are comparing this to an elbow strike but hooks can be thrown over varying ranges with equal effect and when a tight hook is thrown correctly, stability and power is not lost.
> Peace out



A proper hook is done with the elbow at 90 degrees. To hit with the fist at that angle means that the elbow would miss. To get them both at the same distance, you need to make the angle more acute, which takes away structural base to the arm, and removes power from the strike. I do know the old trick of "missing" with the hook and hitting with the elbow, but the part you missed is the stealing of distance with the feet, which is how that works. And I'm not saying a hook won't knock someone out... but there's a bigger risk of damaging your own hand. A palm knocks people out just as easily, with less risk (believe me, I've done it a number of times now...). And I'm not sure how you get a hook "closer range than an elbow", unless it's impacting as the hand comes back towards yourself, which would leave it susceptible to being more glancing them powerful. The simple fact that the hook is at the end of your arm (your hand) makes it out past your elbow, in terms of range... but I think you're right, diagrams would most likely help here, as we might be talking about very similar things, and applying them differently.


----------



## Zero (Mar 21, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> A proper hook is done with the elbow at 90 degrees. To hit with the fist at that angle means that the elbow would miss. To get them both at the same distance, you need to make the angle more acute, which takes away structural base to the arm, and removes power from the strike. I do know the old trick of "missing" with the hook and hitting with the elbow, but the part you missed is the stealing of distance with the feet, which is how that works. And I'm not saying a hook won't knock someone out... but there's a bigger risk of damaging your own hand. A palm knocks people out just as easily, with less risk (believe me, I've done it a number of times now...). And I'm not sure how you get a hook "closer range than an elbow", unless it's impacting as the hand comes back towards yourself, which would leave it susceptible to being more glancing them powerful. The simple fact that the hook is at the end of your arm (your hand) makes it out past your elbow, in terms of range... but I think you're right, diagrams would most likely help here, as we might be talking about very similar things, and applying them differently.


OK Chris, I just tried drawing some diagrams to upload (kind of like the type in Bruce Lee's books or even stick figures) and now realise how truely woeful I am at drawing! Yikes! All I can say is that, yes, generally the angle of the elbow for a "standard" hook will be 90 degrees but I don't think you can call this a "proper hook" (therefore implying other variations are "not proper" (what does that mean? they don't work?)).  The closer you are to your opponent (and I am not talking about stealing distance with your feet with still a 90 degree angle), the tighter that angle will become however. This is still powerful and stable.  I throw this a lot and have seen this done a lot by others both in boxing and other MAs. It is still a hook and can be done to the head or lower to the body, such as body rips (you must have seen these, or possibly received a few, and the angle is tighter than 90 degrees).  The power of the punch is not smothered by being less than 90 degrees, the power is maintained by the twisting of your body, through the foot (ball/toes) and hips. The punch is kept stable via employing lats and due to it being kept close to the body.
While a hook can be thrown with the palm facing the ground or facing back at the striker, the tighter angled hooks are more commonly (at least from my observations and experience) used with your palm facing you.  I prefer executing with the palm facing towards me as I find the arm is lesss restricted in movement.


----------



## punisher73 (Mar 21, 2013)

A good book to give you a variety of kicks that can be used in an MMA/Self defense arena is by Mark Hatmaker
http://www.amazon.com/No-Holds-Barr...1363871944&sr=8-2&keywords=mark+hatmaker+kick

You can usually get it at Barnes and Noble for around $12 or so.  That being said, I will give the caveat that it still doesn't replace a live instructor blah blah blah.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 21, 2013)

K-man said:


> Just for your information. Aikido does use kicks from time to time.  Most times it is just the front kick.



Thanks but I was actually aware of that. When Aikido guys practice defence against kicks someone has to do them.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 21, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> I'm not sure of anyone that would choose an approach that might break your hands over one that has almost no risk, when both provide equal power and effectiveness (although, honestly, I think an open hand is more effective), due to "not caring about breaking your hand".... why would you willingly sacrifice your hand when you don't need to?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ill call these paragraphs 1-3 and save some editing.

1; Because its a reduced risk, not a guarantee of not injuring your hand on the other side. But again, im not criticizing open hand work. Its a bit hard to praise the contrary without making it sound that way. Not caring about breaking your hand, to me, means taking a chance in order to work a different angle. With that being said, i had an epiphany of sorts not long ago that i may have totally overlooked (not in general. just in this conversation) the fact that a straight line palm heel could still work at a body to body range by just adjusting the angle slightly vertically. I suspect i was being a bit rigid in my earlier thinking and looking at them as 'separate techniques' rather than different angles of the same archetype of strike. Or something like that.

2; Well, you might like headlocks. However, i get what youre saying, and i suspect i overlooked that due to the above line of thinking.

3; And what about palm hooks? I took issue mainly to the range on them. But again, that may be irrelevant.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 21, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Ill call these paragraphs 1-3 and save some editing.



Cool. I'll break them up again.



Cyriacus said:


> 1; Because its a reduced risk, not a guarantee of not injuring your hand on the other side. But again, im not criticizing open hand work. Its a bit hard to praise the contrary without making it sound that way. Not caring about breaking your hand, to me, means taking a chance in order to work a different angle. With that being said, i had an epiphany of sorts not long ago that i may have totally overlooked (not in general. just in this conversation) the fact that a straight line palm heel could still work at a body to body range by just adjusting the angle slightly vertically. I suspect i was being a bit rigid in my earlier thinking and looking at them as 'separate techniques' rather than different angles of the same archetype of strike. Or something like that.



Then let's clarify what I meant... with a solid fist, unless you're hitting something soft, or that moves, there's a damn good chance of breaking your hand. With a palm, it's virtually impossible. Boxers break their hands, even with wrapping and gloves. An open palm just doesn't have that problem. Hell, Mike Tyson broke his hand in a street altercation. Why? Because he hit someone in the head with his fist.



Cyriacus said:


> 2; Well, you might like headlocks. However, i get what youre saying, and i suspect i overlooked that due to the above line of thinking.



Still kinda beside the point.... if you like headlocks, then you'd have that as your primary aim, not as a fallback to a missed strike.



Cyriacus said:


> 3; And what about palm hooks? I took issue mainly to the range on them. But again, that may be irrelevant.



With a palm hook, as you noted earlier, the range can be adjusted by altering the orientation of the hand (fingers away for longer range, fingers upright for mid, and fingers pointing back for close range) without affecting the structure of the arm. In fact, my most dominant strike is a palm hook, as it's the most reliable, most high-return, most versatile, safest, easiest, most powerful, fastest strike available to me. And believe me, my guys know just what that strike can do...


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 21, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Cool. I'll break them up again.
> 
> Then let's clarify what I meant... with a solid fist, unless you're hitting something soft, or that moves, there's a damn good chance of breaking your hand. With a palm, it's virtually impossible. Boxers break their hands, even with wrapping and gloves. An open palm just doesn't have that problem. Hell, Mike Tyson broke his hand in a street altercation. Why? Because he hit someone in the head with his fist.
> 
> ...



You present a good argument. 

Im aware of the injury factor, however i might also be underestimating it due to never having sustained any injuries from punching. So, im going to, for the sake of discussion, change my viewpoint on that for the moment. Im not so attached to my previous statement that i wont try a new view.

See now, where youre causing me to rethink things is on the third paragraph. Its so obvious, yet i havent really looked at it like that. And in retrospect (im positive theres a better word), headlocking someone then palming them would probably be easier than punching them, because foreheads.

I might need to experiment with that. Though i know how to throw palm hooks, ive always sort of overlooked them for the previously mentioned reasons. I dont feel like i should say anything more about it until i actually put some more work into them. But, this is quite possibly the first time ive heard you directly call a strike high return, versatile, safe, easy, powerful, and fast. Usually your informations good, so im not going to overlook it. So, ill pop back into this thread tomorrow or the day after upon actually trying things with someone before i draw conclusions about them, and see if i need to retract my previous statements.

Until then, carry on everyone. Sorry for the diversion!


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 21, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Then let's clarify what I meant... with a solid fist, unless you're hitting something soft, or that moves, there's a damn good chance of breaking your hand. With a palm, it's virtually impossible. Boxers break their hands, even with wrapping and gloves. An open palm just doesn't have that problem. Hell, Mike Tyson broke his hand in a street altercation. Why? Because he hit someone in the head with his fist.


  Punching - being a bit off topic I would suggest that the main reason, besides being able to punch very hard, boxers break their hands punching to the head is because the gloves they are so used to wearing do not allow them to clench their fists fully and the hand/wrist wraps take away much of the reliance on wrist strength on correct wrist alignment. If you punch someone in the forehead then you are likely to break your hand, punching to the jaw is less risky and conditioning the fist can reduce the risks considerably. Palm strikes have their own dangers such as spraining or breaking your wrist if you get the angle wrong even when hitting something soft.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 21, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Then let's clarify what I meant... with a solid fist, unless you're hitting something soft, or that moves, there's a damn good chance of breaking your hand. With a palm, it's virtually impossible.



Not so, Chris. Palm strikes result in fractures, most commonly to the navicula and ulna, especially ulnar stylet fractures. I can't say what the relative odds of a fracture are, primarily because of a lack of studies. But these are not at all uncommon injuries.



Chris Parker said:


> Boxers break their hands, even with wrapping and gloves. An open palm just doesn't have that problem. Hell, Mike Tyson broke his hand in a street altercation. Why? Because he hit someone in the head with his fist.



The gloves worn by boxers prevent closing the hand, and reduce (nearly eliminate?) the need for proper hand/wrist/forearm alignment. When a boxer punches something without a glove, this would lead to injuries. Considering that the classic "boxers fracture" is a fracture of the 4th of 5th metacarpal and that this fracture is virtually always the result of improper alignment during the strike, I think there is little to debate.
And of course, boxers don't generally (so far as I know) condition the hands in the way most of us do.


----------



## K-man (Mar 21, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Thanks but I was actually aware of that. When Aikido guys practice defence against kicks someone has to do them.


I'm not talking about defence against kicks. We actually do very little of that.  I'm talking about using kicks as the atemi, and, for what it is worth, we were training them this morning.  People who don't train aikido certainly have the wrong impression of what we actually do.  :asian:


----------



## Kframe (Mar 21, 2013)

My boxing coach taught us the 90 degree angle hook. To shallow and it has less power, to wide and you have less power(lol) and risk injury to your self.   Im surprised that this discussion of hooks did not turn into a argument over palms facing vs palms down. Im a palms facing hooker.   

I have tried the Palm hook, and abandon the idea. I just could not find a good orientation for my hand that did not leave my fingers in the way or some how exposed to dangers. I may revist the idea again.


----------



## Prostar (Mar 21, 2013)

Many years ago I found myself standing in a narrow entryway to a skating rink (not during a session).  A guy got this strange look on his face and started to ask me, "What would you do if".  At that point he found himself pinned to a wall with a side kick.  The point is that I had taught myself to kick effectively where other people only punch.  That four foot hallway was plenty of room.

All too often we establish kicks as long range and hands as close in tools.  My instructor was a Golden Gloves boxer and an All Marines boxer before he started martial arts.  I HAD to learn to defend myself in close with techniques no one expects.

There was lots of good advice in this thread but I just thought I'd toss in a bit of a change-up.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 21, 2013)

Prostar said:


> Many years ago I found myself standing in a narrow entryway to a skating rink (not during a session).  A guy got this strange look on his face and started to ask me, "What would you do if".  At that point he found himself pinned to a wall with a side kick.  The point is that I had taught myself to kick effectively where other people only punch.  That four foot hallway was plenty of room.
> 
> All too often we establish kicks as long range and hands as close in tools.  My instructor was a Golden Gloves boxer and an All Marines boxer before he started martial arts.  I HAD to learn to defend myself in close with techniques no one expects.
> 
> There was lots of good advice in this thread but I just thought I'd toss in a bit of a change-up.



Well of course - Now i have some questions, just to lend some context.
1; Why did you choose a side kick?
2; Just how far away were you?
3; Are you aware of the difference between a fight and an assault?
4; I dont consider kicks long range tools, i consider them medium to long range tools, or close if you go low. How far away were you?
5; How do you know he wasnt going to ask if you were going to win the lottery, or insert skating related question here, and did you feel physically threatened to sufficiently warrant a pre-emptive strike?

Edit: I know that 2 and 4 sound like the same question. 2 is your distance, 4 was more a discussion point about medium range kicking, but it didnt make sense if i didnt actually put a question in my question.


----------



## Prostar (Mar 22, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Well of course - Now i have some questions, just to lend some context.
> 1; Why did you choose a side kick?
> 2; Just how far away were you?
> 3; Are you aware of the difference between a fight and an assault?
> ...



Good questions.
1. It made an indelible point.
2. Two people in a four foot hallway.  Kind of like being in the proverbial phone booth.  A couple of feet.
3. Absolutely.  Been there.
4. This was way too close to be considered medium range.
5.  There is another thread that asks the question of how to deal with people who ask what would you if I...He had just mentioned martial arts so I saw it coming.  It was just that throwing a kick like that in such close quarters ended all such discussion quickly.  His response was, "Oh".

My overall point was that, in such a situation, people generally expect something from the hands.  Being able to kick when others only punch just adds to the arsenal.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 22, 2013)

Prostar said:


> Good questions.
> 1. It made an indelible point.
> 2. Two people in a four foot hallway.  Kind of like being in the proverbial phone booth.  A couple of feet.
> 3. Absolutely.  Been there.
> ...



Well, ill comment that most fights ive seen and what few ive been in start with a grapple, but aside from that, fair enough


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 23, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Cool. I'll break them up again.
> 
> Then let's clarify what I meant... with a solid fist, unless you're hitting something soft, or that moves, there's a damn good chance of breaking your hand. With a palm, it's virtually impossible. Boxers break their hands, even with wrapping and gloves. An open palm just doesn't have that problem. Hell, Mike Tyson broke his hand in a street altercation. Why? Because he hit someone in the head with his fist.
> 
> ...



Alrighty, back to this.

Speed wise and power wise, i dont see any difference. However, i find it works on a bit of a tighter arc. At least according to the person i was with, it wasnt quite as easy to stop from hitting you. I didnt notice all that much (from a receivers viewpoint), however i can see how that might happen.

Range (ala hand position) isnt as much of a factor as i took it for, since bending the elbow to shorten your reach as needed realigns your fingers all on its own anyway, so i was wrong about that. In my head, against air, and against a post, it came out like seperate movements. With a more ball shaped mark (head) the adjustment was purely in the elbow, same as a hook punch.

I stand by the chance of hitting with the bottom of the metacarpals, albeit thats like saying you can hit with your fingers off a punch. That doesnt exactly change anything, though the knuckles do protrude more consistently than the heel of the palm.

The main thing im going to bring up is that with some contact, hook punches tend to rotate the head. With the palm hooks i was fiddling with, presumably due to the shape of the hand, hitting anything other than the jaw seems to move the entire head and neck sideways, which presented some interesting continuations, and to me didnt quite feel as nice to receive (which i assume is either due to not being used to it, or from your neck not liking it). 



So, my prior judgement was harsh. Consider my standpoint revised, to not judge things based on old information.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Mar 23, 2013)

So, I agree with pretty much everything Chris has said but will say that kicking does have a role in self defense training. However, the only really training you'd need is to practice crushing cans with a stomp as that would be the most effective way to kick someone who is actively attacking you. With training I could certainly see one being able to use kicking methods effectively but in a limited setting, so I'd agree with Dirty Dog there.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 24, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Punching - being a bit off topic I would suggest that the main reason, besides being able to punch very hard, boxers break their hands punching to the head is because the gloves they are so used to wearing do not allow them to clench their fists fully and the hand/wrist wraps take away much of the reliance on wrist strength on correct wrist alignment. If you punch someone in the forehead then you are likely to break your hand, punching to the jaw is less risky and conditioning the fist can reduce the risks considerably. Palm strikes have their own dangers such as spraining or breaking your wrist if you get the angle wrong even when hitting something soft.



I'm less convinced of the "can't close their hands properly" reasoning... but I'll come to that in a moment. I would agree with the idea of punching the head being a major cause, though... in very simple terms, it's big (thick, hard) bones (forehead) versus little bones... big bones win. The only viable targets for a closed fist on the head I'd aim for are the jaw (which moves) and the nose (which moves... when it breaks). Spraining happens if the wrist is taken past it's flexibility point... so that's more an indication that the point of impact is closer to the fingers than the base of the palm, rather than being a flaw of the palm strike itself. Breaking your wrist is more about a poor alignment (which is why wrists get broken in falls).



Dirty Dog said:


> Not so, Chris. Palm strikes result in fractures, most commonly to the navicula and ulna, especially ulnar stylet fractures. I can't say what the relative odds of a fracture are, primarily because of a lack of studies. But these are not at all uncommon injuries.



Are those injuries from palm strikes, though? Fractured/broken wrists, from the discussions I've had with various doctors/surgeons/nurses, are more often from falls than anything else... the hands reach out to stop the fall, extending the wrist, which puts all of the force into it, not allowing any support (or cushioning of the impact), which is what breaks it. A palm strike, if done properly, allows for the impact to travel down the length of the forearm, cushioning and reducing the strain on the wrist a fair bit, and reducing the chance of injury, particularly breaks or fracturing.



Dirty Dog said:


> The gloves worn by boxers prevent closing the hand, and reduce (nearly eliminate?) the need for proper hand/wrist/forearm alignment. When a boxer punches something without a glove, this would lead to injuries. Considering that the classic "boxers fracture" is a fracture of the 4th of 5th metacarpal and that this fracture is virtually always the result of improper alignment during the strike, I think there is little to debate.
> And of course, boxers don't generally (so far as I know) condition the hands in the way most of us do.



See, now, this I disagree with. Boxers don't always use gloves... a lot of the time, bag work might be done with just wraps, as is shadow boxing (a way of working on form, as well as other aspects). And, in that instance, proper alignment is absolutely needed, and drilled. Additionally, proper wrist alignment is needed when wearing gloves as well... I'd even suggest it becomes more important there, as the added weight and bulk of the gloves don't help with the force being transferred into the wrist.... and it's that force that would injure the wrist. Realistically, the wrist is just as susceptible to injury in a punch as a palm strike, as the force being transferred into it is pretty well equal. And that's not where the punching breaks happen. I'd also seriously question the idea that boxers don't condition their hands to strike... it's one of the main reasons for bag work!

When it comes to the classic "boxer's fracture", it is a break of, as you said, the fourth or fifth metacarpal (the ring and little fingers, respectively). The improper alignment there isn't really about the wrist, it's that you hit "late", and the force is applied to the later part of your hand (leading with the index or middle finger knuckles). It is more common to break your hand that way by slightly missing with the lead knuckles, and "clipping" (with some force!) the latter knuckles. The facts that these metacarpals aren't as supported, are thinner, and don't allow the force to continue to travel down the forearm, all combine to result in a broken hand. And, really, the most common cause is striking something hard (such as the head/skull) with those later knuckles.



Kframe said:


> My boxing coach taught us the 90 degree angle hook. To shallow and it has less power, to wide and you have less power(lol) and risk injury to your self.   Im surprised that this discussion of hooks did not turn into a argument over palms facing vs palms down. Im a palms facing hooker.
> 
> I have tried the Palm hook, and abandon the idea. I just could not find a good orientation for my hand that did not leave my fingers in the way or some how exposed to dangers. I may revist the idea again.



I'll give you some of my approaches for your palm hook. Firstly, the impact is always done with the bottom of your palm, where it is supported by your wrist and forearm (directly). When it comes to positioning of the fingers, if the opponent is slightly further away, then I point them forwards... if at a "middle" range, they point up... and, if close in, they point back towards myself. The vast majority of the time, it's the first one (pointed away). My most common target, also, is the jaw line... as it's a very good chance for a knockout. My personal targeting is to strike by positioning the opponents ear between my thumb and forefinger... this means my palm impacts about halfway along the jawline. Using a direct angle straight in (90 degrees to the jaw), it is an incredibly powerful strike... as well as being a large target, making it very simple to use in a "gross motor" fashion, making it usable in an adrenalized state (as a fight/self defence situation is). There's a lot more to it than this, such as the way we utilize bodyweight in our striking methods, and other reasons to prefer that particular targeting, but that's enough of a clue for now, I feel... 



Cyriacus said:


> Alrighty, back to this.
> 
> Speed wise and power wise, i dont see any difference. However, i find it works on a bit of a tighter arc. At least according to the person i was with, it wasnt quite as easy to stop from hitting you. I didnt notice all that much (from a receivers viewpoint), however i can see how that might happen.



Speed wise, against a punch, well, it's basically the same action, so yeah, they're the same. Power wise, the difference is primarily psychological... due to the reduced risk of injuring yourself, it's common to put more behind a palm strike than a punch. To test that, go up to a brick wall, and punch it as hard as you dare... then strike with your palm as hard as you dare. I guarantee that you'll let yourself hit a lot harder with the palm... As far as the angle, again, they can be identical... but I find the palm can be slightly tighter, due to the larger impact point. The focus of the fist means that you need to get the angle that much more correct, so your approach is a little more limited.



Cyriacus said:


> Range (ala hand position) isnt as much of a factor as i took it for, since bending the elbow to shorten your reach as needed realigns your fingers all on its own anyway, so i was wrong about that. In my head, against air, and against a post, it came out like seperate movements. With a more ball shaped mark (head) the adjustment was purely in the elbow, same as a hook punch.



You're better off rotating your hand, rather than bending the elbow away from 90 degrees... you're sacrificing power, as well as alignment, for convenience.



Cyriacus said:


> I stand by the chance of hitting with the bottom of the metacarpals, albeit thats like saying you can hit with your fingers off a punch. That doesnt exactly change anything, though the knuckles do protrude more consistently than the heel of the palm.



You want to hit with the base of the palm, not the center of it. That's where the support is, that's where the stability is, that's where the transfer of power is... further up (towards the fingers) is less stable, less powerful, less safe.



Cyriacus said:


> The main thing im going to bring up is that with some contact, hook punches tend to rotate the head. With the palm hooks i was fiddling with, presumably due to the shape of the hand, hitting anything other than the jaw seems to move the entire head and neck sideways, which presented some interesting continuations, and to me didnt quite feel as nice to receive (which i assume is either due to not being used to it, or from your neck not liking it).



Hit towards, not across... makes a world of difference.



Cyriacus said:


> So, my prior judgement was harsh. Consider my standpoint revised, to not judge things based on old information.



Cool.



Himura Kenshin said:


> So, I agree with pretty much everything Chris has said but will say that kicking does have a role in self defense training. However, the only really training you'd need is to practice crushing cans with a stomp as that would be the most effective way to kick someone who is actively attacking you. With training I could certainly see one being able to use kicking methods effectively but in a limited setting, so I'd agree with Dirty Dog there.



For practicing such stomps, make sure you exaggerate the action as much as you can....


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 24, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Speed wise, against a punch, well, it's basically the same action, so yeah, they're the same. Power wise, the difference is primarily psychological... due to the reduced risk of injuring yourself, it's common to put more behind a palm strike than a punch. To test that, go up to a brick wall, and punch it as hard as you dare... then strike with your palm as hard as you dare. I guarantee that you'll let yourself hit a lot harder with the palm... As far as the angle, again, they can be identical... but I find the palm can be slightly tighter, due to the larger impact point. The focus of the fist means that you need to get the angle that much more correct, so your approach is a little more limited.



Fair enough.



> You're better off rotating your hand, rather than bending the elbow away from 90 degrees... you're sacrificing power, as well as alignment, for convenience.



Of course your hand rotates - I didnt mean to imply that i was changing the rotation of the elbow in terms of how bent it is, or what angle its at. I meant that as a correction to my previous presumption. By rotating your arm, as in... when your hand turns, your arm turns to facilitate its turning. This is a failure of my vocabulary.



> You want to hit with the base of the palm, not the center of it. That's where the support is, that's where the stability is, that's where the transfer of power is... further up (towards the fingers) is less stable, less powerful, less safe.



I know that - You also want to hit with your knuckles, and not your fingers. That was what i was getting at. Your knuckles stick out from your fingers, but how far your palm sticks out from the flat of your hand may vary.




> Hit towards, not across... makes a world of difference.



So were clear, are you referring more to a straight-but-across-your-body sort of motion, less so than a swinging/hooking motion? If so, i know that by a different name, and quite like it.



> Cool.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 24, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Of course your hand rotates - I didnt mean to imply that i was changing the rotation of the elbow in terms of how bent it is, or what angle its at. I meant that as a correction to my previous presumption. By rotating your arm, as in... when your hand turns, your arm turns to facilitate its turning. This is a failure of my vocabulary.



Cool.



Cyriacus said:


> I know that - You also want to hit with your knuckles, and not your fingers. That was what i was getting at. Your knuckles stick out from your fingers, but how far your palm sticks out from the flat of your hand may vary.



Ah, but which knuckles...?



Cyriacus said:


> So were clear, are you referring more to a straight-but-across-your-body sort of motion, less so than a swinging/hooking motion? If so, i know that by a different name, and quite like it.



Yeah, that's as good a way to put it as any. The important thing is the angle of impact, and the angle of penetration, rather than the angle of approach.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 24, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Ah, but which knuckles...?



The ones that come before your fingers start. On second thought, ive known some people whos second row of knuckles stick out quite a ways.



> Yeah, that's as good a way to put it as any. The important thing is the angle of impact, and the angle of penetration, rather than the angle of approach.



I learned them under a different name. If thats what youve been talking about this whole time, and id known that, wed have been in agreement from the get-go.


----------



## Kframe (Mar 24, 2013)

Thanks Chris parker for the "clue". Ill try those hand positions during my practice.  When it comes to body mechanics about the hook, I have my preferred method of body mechanics I use. Mostly I don't use my arm to put in any force, I use my rotating body to provide the force.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 24, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> The ones that come before your fingers start. On second thought, ive known some people whos second row of knuckles stick out quite a ways.



Ha, no, the first knuckles of which fingers? The index and middle, or the middle, ring, and little.... or the ring and little only. Different systems have different preferences, for their own reasons



Cyriacus said:


> I learned them under a different name. If thats what youve been talking about this whole time, and id known that, wed have been in agreement from the get-go.



Well, it's part of it, but not what I've been talking about mainly. It's really just one aspect (albeit an essential one, to my approach) of using a palm strike in a "hook".



Kframe said:


> Thanks Chris parker for the "clue". Ill try those hand positions during my practice.  When it comes to body mechanics about the hook, I have my preferred method of body mechanics I use. Mostly I don't use my arm to put in any force, I use my rotating body to provide the force.



Yeah, each art will have it's own ideas on body mechanics... the better you understand the ones for your art, the better you can apply things like palm strikes easily and powerfully... and kicks, for that matter (hey, back to the topic! What d'ya know?).


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 24, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, no, the first knuckles of which fingers? The index and middle, or the middle, ring, and little.... or the ring and little only. Different systems have different preferences, for their own reasons
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it's part of it, but not what I've been talking about mainly. It's really just one aspect (albeit an essential one, to my approach) of using a palm strike in a "hook".



To the first part, well, all of mine stick out slightly further than my fingers do. As far as which are being used to hit stuff, first two for anything that isnt the head. For the head, aim with the middle knuckles and whichever ones hit, do. In the system im learning, of course.

To the second part, *nods*


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 24, 2013)

Hmm... so the advice is to hit to softer targets (not the head) with the most structurally sound, largest, and strongest (most resistive to being broken) knuckles, but when hitting to the head, to move down to the most commonly broken in a "boxer's fracture", which happens when they hit someone in the head with that knuckle? Interesting.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 24, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm... so the advice is to hit to softer targets (not the head) with the most structurally sound, largest, and strongest (most resistive to being broken) knuckles, but when hitting to the head, to move down to the most commonly broken in a "boxer's fracture", which happens when they hit someone in the head with that knuckle? Interesting.



I have no intention of defending that fact, because i agree.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 24, 2013)

Ha, cool. I didn't want to get into a "your style versus..." thing, I was just intrigued, and wondering if there was a reason (that you'd been given).


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Are those injuries from palm strikes, though?



I've never seen a study that included information on falls vs strikes. I've personally encountered both, with more being from falls, simply because falls are more common than palm strikes against solid targets.



Chris Parker said:


> Fractured/broken wrists, from the discussions I've had with various doctors/surgeons/nurses, are more often from falls than anything else... the hands reach out to stop the fall, extending the wrist, which puts all of the force into it, not allowing any support (or cushioning of the impact), which is what breaks it.



More people punch than do palm strikes. More people fall than do palm strikes. I was mostly responding to your statement that it was 'virtually impossible' to break yourself with a palm strike. It's not. 



Chris Parker said:


> A palm strike, if done properly, allows for the impact to travel down the length of the forearm, cushioning and reducing the strain on the wrist a fair bit, and reducing the chance of injury, particularly breaks or fracturing.



Well duh.... Replace "palm strike" with "punch" and the statement is equally true.



Chris Parker said:


> See, now, this I disagree with. Boxers don't always use gloves... a lot of the time, bag work might be done with just wraps, as is shadow boxing (a way of working on form, as well as other aspects). And, in that instance, proper alignment is absolutely needed, and drilled. Additionally, proper wrist alignment is needed when wearing gloves as well... I'd even suggest it becomes more important there, as the added weight and bulk of the gloves don't help with the force being transferred into the wrist.... and it's that force that would injure the wrist. Realistically, the wrist is just as susceptible to injury in a punch as a palm strike, as the force being transferred into it is pretty well equal. And that's not where the punching breaks happen. I'd also seriously question the idea that boxers don't condition their hands to strike... it's one of the main reasons for bag work!



Boxers (as a general rule - I am certain there will be some rare exceptions) do not train to punch without protection and support from gloves/wraps/tape/bags that are somewhat more forgiving than a skull.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 24, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I've never seen a study that included information on falls vs strikes. I've personally encountered both, with more being from falls, simply because falls are more common than palm strikes against solid targets.



I wouldn't expect to see one, really. The interest would be rather niche, to say the least! That said, I do contend that there are structural reasons for breaks occurring from falls more than palm strikes, as well as the higher likelihood of falling than striking on a day-to-day basis.



Dirty Dog said:


> More people punch than do palm strikes. More people fall than do palm strikes. I was mostly responding to your statement that it was 'virtually impossible' to break yourself with a palm strike. It's not.



By comparison with a punch, I'd still stand by my statement. My position was assuming that both were done "correctly"... in which case, there is still a good chance of breaking your hand with a punch (to something like a skull), but not really with a palm strike. For the palm strike to break your hand/wrist, you need to have screwed it up... with a punch, you just need to have hit something very hard.



Dirty Dog said:


> Well duh.... Replace "palm strike" with "punch" and the statement is equally true.



No, not quite. Many broken hands in boxing (or any other combat sport, really... I've seen it in everything from MMA, to boxing, to WWE, to non-contact TKD tournaments...), and the breaks don't happen because the punch is incorrect... it's because it hits a hard target. Most commonly, the skull.



Dirty Dog said:


> Boxers (as a general rule - I am certain there will be some rare exceptions) do not train to punch without protection and support from gloves/wraps/tape/bags that are somewhat more forgiving than a skull.



Yes, the objects they hit are more forgiving than a skull... and I can't blame them for that at all! After all, hitting a skull (or similar... another common cause is hitting a wall...) can break your hand! But the thing to remember is that the wraps provide support for the wrist, but don't stop the boxer from making a proper fist... and don't stop a boxer's fracture from happening.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 24, 2013)

Himura Kenshin said:


> However, the only really training you'd need is to practice crushing cans with a stomp as that would be the most effective way to kick someone who is actively attacking you.



Make sure you wear shoes when stomping on cans as they can have sharp points sticking up and don't forget to recycle. And what part of the attacker would you be stomping on with this can stomping action - the feet? Have you ever tried stomping on someones feet when they are moving around rapidly? It's not easy therefore if you are going to use kicking then you will need a bit more variety in the methods of training for kicks.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 24, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Make sure you wear shoes when stomping on cans as they can have sharp points sticking up and don't forget to recycle. And what part of the attacker would you be stomping on with this can stomping action - the feet? Have you ever tried stomping on someones feet when they are moving around rapidly? It's not easy therefore if you are going to use kicking then you will need a bit more variety in the methods of training for kicks.



I assume the target would be their torso. Functionally, stomp kicks dont change much based on where you aim them.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 24, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm... so the advice is to hit to softer targets (not the head) with the most structurally sound, largest, and strongest (most resistive to being broken) knuckles, but when hitting to the head, to move down to the most commonly broken in a "boxer's fracture", which happens when they hit someone in the head with that knuckle? Interesting.



Makes me rather suspect that they don't hit to the head very much...


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 24, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Makes me rather suspect that they don't hit to the head very much...



Its about 60/40 in favor of hitting to the head. But, thats at the expense of only half contact being involved when practicing those sorts of things.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 24, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> I'm less convinced of the "can't close their hands properly" reasoning... but I'll come to that in a moment. I would agree with the idea of punching the head being a major cause, though... in very simple terms, it's big (thick, hard) bones (forehead) versus little bones... big bones win. The only viable targets for a closed fist on the head I'd aim for are the jaw (which moves) and the nose (which moves... when it breaks). Spraining happens if the wrist is taken past it's flexibility point... so that's more an indication that the point of impact is closer to the fingers than the base of the palm, rather than being a flaw of the palm strike itself. Breaking your wrist is more about a poor alignment (which is why wrists get broken in falls).



Clenching the fists properly involves closing them as tight as you can, squeezing out all of the air and making them as compact as possible and have your fingers completely flat at the front (back of the wrist and front of the fist at a 90 degree angle), you just can't do that with a piece of padded material inside your fist, try doing knuckle pushups on a wooden floor when clenching some in your fist. I agree with the rest of the paragraph but I will add that the head does move when you hit it in the temple.



Chris Parker said:


> I'd also seriously question the idea that boxers don't condition their hands to strike... it's one of the main reasons for bag work!



Bag work is a great conditioning tool but you need much more than that to condition the hands effectively. Some of the things that I do personally are: Knuckle pushups on thw wooden training floor, bitumen and concrete, jumping Knuckle pushups, twisting Knuckle pushups, finger pushups board and tile breaking, bag work and punching hard but flexible objects.



Chris Parker said:


> When it comes to the classic "boxer's fracture", it is a break of, as you said, the fourth or fifth metacarpal (the ring and little fingers, respectively). The improper alignment there isn't really about the wrist, it's that you hit "late", and the force is applied to the later part of your hand (leading with the index or middle finger knuckles). It is more common to break your hand that way by slightly missing with the lead knuckles, and "clipping" (with some force!) the latter knuckles. The facts that these metacarpals aren't as supported, are thinner, and don't allow the force to continue to travel down the forearm, all combine to result in a broken hand. And, really, the most common cause is striking something hard (such as the head/skull) with those later knuckles.



Other injuries can include breaking the fingers by accidentally hitting with the lower knuckles and spraining the thumb by hitting slightly off angle, this is why I rarely use a hook punch on a round punching bag, I sprained my right thumb by punching slightly too far forward and hitting the back of the bag. Since then I have sprained my thumb about 20 times getting my hand kicked during sparring, one thing I ahve notice is that twisting the wrist at the last moment during a straight punch protects then thumb from getting sprained from the opponents blocks.



Chris Parker said:


> My most common target, also, is the jaw line... as it's a very good chance for a knockout. My personal targeting is to strike by positioning the opponents ear between my thumb and forefinger... this means my palm impacts about halfway along the jawline. Using a direct angle straight in (90 degrees to the jaw), it is an incredibly powerful strike... as well as being a large target, making it very simple to use in a "gross motor" fashion, making it usable in an adrenalized state (as a fight/self defence situation is).



Since you put so much faith in "gross motor" skills I will point out that punching with a clenched fist is a much more natural and instinctive action than hitting with the palm, that is why in just about every fight between unskilled non-martial art people that involved striking, punches are thrown and not palm strikes.




Chris Parker said:


> Speed wise, against a punch, well, it's basically the same action, so yeah, they're the same. Power wise, the difference is primarily psychological... due to the reduced risk of injuring yourself, it's common to put more behind a palm strike than a punch. To test that, go up to a brick wall, and punch it as hard as you dare... then strike with your palm as hard as you dare. I guarantee that you'll let yourself hit a lot harder with the palm... As far as the angle, again, they can be identical... but I find the palm can be slightly tighter, due to the larger impact point. The focus of the fist means that you need to get the angle that much more correct, so your approach is a little more limited.



It would be pretty stupid to punch and/or palm strike a brick wall as hard as you can, that being said if you place your hand on a brick wall with the bottom of the wrist facing down the palm strike is more suitable for higher angles and the punch more suitable to the lower angles although the further you go down the more you contact with the back of the knuckles but the palm strike retains the same contact. Personally I would use palm strikes in addition to rather than instead of punching.



You're better off rotating your hand, rather than bending the elbow away from 90 degrees... you're sacrificing power, as well as alignment, for convenience.



You want to hit with the base of the palm, not the center of it. That's where the support is, that's where the stability is, that's where the transfer of power is... further up (towards the fingers) is less stable, less powerful, less safe.



Hit towards, not across... makes a world of difference.



Cool.



For practicing such stomps, make sure you exaggerate the action as much as you can....[/QUOTE]


----------



## Aiki Lee (Mar 24, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Make sure you wear shoes when stomping on cans as they can have sharp points sticking up and don't forget to recycle. And what part of the attacker would you be stomping on with this can stomping action - the feet? Have you ever tried stomping on someones feet when they are moving around rapidly? It's not easy therefore if you are going to use kicking then you will need a bit more variety in the methods of training for kicks.



The side of the knees actually, or the head or ribs. I wouldn't kick someone unless they were in a compromised position already. I might throw a snap kick to the shins as a set up but stomping kicks are done when someone is off balance or already off the ground.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 24, 2013)

Himura Kenshin said:


> or already off the ground.



So, you only kick a person if theyre flying through the air?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 24, 2013)

Hmm had not seen this thread somehow. Well, I would post my own opinion on the subject, but just read the entire thread, and every response I thought of was said by chris or himura in a much better way then I would have said it...so just commenting to voice my support for their SD methods.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 25, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Clenching the fists properly involves closing them as tight as you can, squeezing out all of the air and making them as compact as possible and have your fingers completely flat at the front (back of the wrist and front of the fist at a 90 degree angle), you just can't do that with a piece of padded material inside your fist, try doing knuckle pushups on a wooden floor when clenching some in your fist.



There are different ways to form a fist, you realize... but, for the record, the most important part of forming a fist is in the wrist... the fingers won't always be at 90 degrees. In fact, the fingers will typically not be at 90 degrees, but a bit less... which allows the knuckles themselves to protrude beyond them. That's kinda essential, really, as the fingers don't impact (if they do, there's a good chance of injuring them pretty badly), the knuckles do. That requires them to lead.... Besides which, I wasn't saying that the gloves don't allow you to form a tight fist, I was saying that that wasn't the only way boxers practice, they also practice with just wraps, which do allow a "proper" fist to be formed. So, uh, missed the point there.



RTKDCMB said:


> I agree with the rest of the paragraph but I will add that the head does move when you hit it in the temple.



The head does, the bones don't. The jaw bone does. The nose does (when it breaks). The skull doesn't. And your hand breaks.



RTKDCMB said:


> Bag work is a great conditioning tool but you need much more than that to condition the hands effectively. Some of the things that I do personally are: Knuckle pushups on thw wooden training floor, bitumen and concrete, jumping Knuckle pushups, twisting Knuckle pushups, finger pushups board and tile breaking, bag work and punching hard but flexible objects.



Yeah... look, to be blunt, knuckle push-ups are really useless for hand conditioning (as related to striking), finger push-ups are really only to help strengthen your fingers, not condition them for striking, and so on. Board and tile breaking, same, really. That's good for focus, but not so much for conditioning. Actual hand conditioning is closer to bag work, when all's said and done. Only the last two things you mention are related to (or applicable for) hand conditioning.



RTKDCMB said:


> Other injuries can include breaking the fingers by accidentally hitting with the lower knuckles and spraining the thumb by hitting slightly off angle, this is why I rarely use a hook punch on a round punching bag, I sprained my right thumb by punching slightly too far forward and hitting the back of the bag. Since then I have sprained my thumb about 20 times getting my hand kicked during sparring, one thing I ahve notice is that twisting the wrist at the last moment during a straight punch protects then thumb from getting sprained from the opponents blocks.



Yeah... not sure what relevance this really has... other than you need more training in striking properly...



RTKDCMB said:


> Since you put so much faith in "gross motor" skills I will point out that punching with a clenched fist is a much more natural and instinctive action than hitting with the palm, that is why in just about every fight between unskilled non-martial art people that involved striking, punches are thrown and not palm strikes.



Instinctual and gross motor, believe it or not, aren't actually the same thing. Our hands are not designed to hit things with at all, they're designed to pick things up (to hit things) with... but, for the record, there are a range of reasons that fists are more commonly seen... and most of it has to do with perceptions rather than reality.



RTKDCMB said:


> It would be pretty stupid to punch and/or palm strike a brick wall as hard as you can, that being said if you place your hand on a brick wall with the bottom of the wrist facing down the palm strike is more suitable for higher angles and the punch more suitable to the lower angles although the further you go down the more you contact with the back of the knuckles but the palm strike retains the same contact. Personally I would use palm strikes in addition to rather than instead of punching.



Yeah... you might note the careful use of words there.... I didn't say "hit as hard as you can", I said "hit as hard as you dare"... subtle, perhaps, but important... and, well, kinda integral to the point I was making (you seem to have missed that one as well). Oh, and your knowledge of striking still needs work.



Himura Kenshin said:


> The side of the knees actually, or the head or ribs. I wouldn't kick someone unless they were in a compromised position already. I might throw a snap kick to the shins as a set up but stomping kicks are done when someone is off balance or already off the ground.



I wouldn't advise the head, mainly for legal reasons. The body, knees, joints, all good. I like stomping to wrists and elbows as a finish to knife defence, if the target presents itself (ankles as well), as it makes it rather difficult for the attacker to get back up again. Against an unarmed assault, I would caution avoiding such extreme responses.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 25, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> There are different ways to form a fist, you realize... but, for the record, the most important part of forming a fist is in the wrist... the fingers won't always be at 90 degrees. In fact, the fingers will typically not be at 90 degrees, but a bit less... which allows the knuckles themselves to protrude beyond them. That's kinda essential, really, as the fingers don't impact (if they do, there's a good chance of injuring them pretty badly), the knuckles do. That requires them to lead.... Besides which, I wasn't saying that the gloves don't allow you to form a tight fist, I was saying that that wasn't the only way boxers practice, they also practice with just wraps, which do allow a "proper" fist to be formed. So, uh, missed the point there.



 Plus or minus a few degrees, not much of a stretch really. Oh and the fingers always make some contact, we human beings compress and deform a bit when we get hit.





Chris Parker said:


> Yeah... look, to be blunt, knuckle push-ups are really useless for hand conditioning (as related to striking), finger push-ups are really only to help strengthen your fingers, not condition them for striking, and so on. Board and tile breaking, same, really. That's good for focus, but not so much for conditioning. Actual hand conditioning is closer to bag work, when all's said and done. Only the last two things you mention are related to (or applicable for) hand conditioning.



Any reasonable amount of stress on the bones will strengthen them (Wolfe's law, cortical remodeling), a single punch through 2 or 3 boards will do more to condition the hands than a single punch on a punching bag. Stronger fingers mean that you can clench the fist tighter.




Chris Parker said:


> Yeah... not sure what relevance this really has... other than you need more training in striking properly...



You're right I did need more training 20 years ago.




Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and your knowledge of striking still needs work.



 You seem to believe that people's heads are immovable objects that people can't punch without breaking their hands, palm strikes can not injure the striker, people are powerless against the influence of adrenaline and people always go on "unconscious autopilot" when attacked and you say my knowledge of striking needs work.  





Chris Parker said:


> I wouldn't advise the head, mainly for legal reasons. The body, knees, joints, all good. I like stomping to wrists and elbows as a finish to knife defence, if the target presents itself (ankles as well), as it makes it rather difficult for the attacker to get back up again. Against an unarmed assault, I would caution avoiding such extreme responses.



This part I agree with you - I can think of no good reason to stomp on someones head. One question though - how do you normally stomp on the wrists of the knife holder, is it after the knife has been removed or while they are still holding it? Just curious.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 25, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> You seem to believe that people's heads are immovable objects that people can't punch without breaking their hands, palm strikes can not injure the striker, people are powerless against the influence of adrenaline and people always go on "unconscious autopilot" when attacked and you say my knowledge of striking needs work.



Unconscious autopilot is an understatement.


----------



## K-man (Mar 25, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Clenching the fists properly involves closing them as tight as you can, squeezing out all of the air and making them as compact as possible and have your fingers completely flat at the front (back of the wrist and front of the fist at a 90 degree angle), you just can't do that with a piece of padded material inside your fist, try doing knuckle pushups on a wooden floor when clenching some in your fist. I agree with the rest of the paragraph but I will add that the head does move when you hit it in the temple.
> 
> Bag work is a great conditioning tool but you need much more than that to condition the hands effectively. Some of the things that I do personally are: Knuckle pushups on thw wooden training floor, bitumen and concrete, jumping Knuckle pushups, twisting Knuckle pushups, finger pushups board and tile breaking, bag work and punching hard but flexible objects.



As Chris said, there are many ways of making a fist. I teach one from the CMAs called 'Cotton Fist' where the hand is not clenched and another where you can strike even if your index finger or thumb was damaged in a way that prevented you from clenching the fist.

For conditioning, it's hard to go past the makiwara. 

But I'm confused. How come we're discussing punching, at such length, in a kicking thread?
 :asian:


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 25, 2013)

K-man said:


> As Chris said, there are many ways of making a fist. I teach one from the CMAs called 'Cotton Fist' where the hand is not clenched and another where you can strike even if your index finger or thumb was damaged in a way that prevented you from clenching the fist.



And lets not forget the Phoenix eye fist, the middle knuckle fist (from my art as well) and the Wing Chun version for punching with the middle and smaller knuckles



K-man said:


> For conditioning, it's hard to go past the makiwara.



A hard but flexible object So I Totally agree



K-man said:


> But I'm confused. How come we're discussing punching, at such length, in a kicking thread?



I was wondering that myself, threads seem to evolve from one topic to the next, much like a conversation. 

And now back to kicking.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 26, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Plus or minus a few degrees, not much of a stretch really. Oh and the fingers always make some contact, we human beings compress and deform a bit when we get hit.



Actually, it does make a difference... 90 degrees means that, as the knuckles impact, so will the front of the fingers, which can force them back, and damage them. Less than 90 degrees, and the impact is with the fore-knuckles, which take the brunt of the force. Yes, the fingers will still contact, but they don't "impact" (take the major force of the strike). Again, the words are important.

Naturally, I am only talking about "regular" fists here, rather than any specialized ones... if I was, I'd talk about many, many different forms, ranging from striking with the first knuckles of the fingers (a "panther fist", or, in my systems, shikan ken), a single extended first-knuckle strike, a strike with the thumb, the first knuckle of the thumb, even up to a fist found in Yagyu Shingan Ryu, where the hand is held by keeping the tips of the fingers and thumb together, holding the hand "as if holding an egg", meaning that the fist is never closed... and the striking method used in this form is to swing the arms in large movements. After a few years of training like that, you should be able to break rocks with this "unclenched" fist. But, as I said, I'm only referring to a regular fist at the moment...



RTKDCMB said:


> Any reasonable amount of stress on the bones will strengthen them (Wolfe's law, cortical remodeling), a single punch through 2 or 3 boards will do more to condition the hands than a single punch on a punching bag. Stronger fingers mean that you can clench the fist tighter.



No.

Cortical remodeling, which is part of Wolff's Law, refers to the effect of striking an object over and over... such as makiwara or bag work. Knuckle push-ups don't have the same effect, as they don't give the same stimulus. They'll help toughen up the skin on your knuckles more than anything else. Oh, and Wolff's Law really deals more with the effect on bone mass that muscular stress (loading) has. By building up the muscular groups attached to the bones, it forces them to become denser, or grow. Knuckle push-ups don't provide that stimulus. Striking through boards doesn't actually do it either, as you're not generating impact to create the effect of cortical remodeling, unless the boards don't break. Really, bag work and makiwara (the same thing, really, just using different equipment) is the way to employ the effects of Wolff's Law, as well as condition your hands for striking. The rest you suggested isn't.



RTKDCMB said:


> You're right I did need more training 20 years ago.



You're kidding? You spoke about "other injuries" by citing ones you've sustained, which all showed that you were striking incorrectly (missing the bag, striking with the wrong part of your hand etc), and when called on the fact that your story didn't show an issue with the striking ideas, but with your execution of it, you come back with "you're right, I did need more training 20 years ago"? Really? You injured yourself as a beginner two decades ago, and think that's relevant to whether or not the strike is dangerous?

If you strike badly, whether due to inexperience or poor technique, you can injure yourself. That's really all you showed. Nothing about whether or not the actual method is flawed.



RTKDCMB said:


> You seem to believe that people's heads are immovable objects that people can't punch without breaking their hands, palm strikes can not injure the striker, people are powerless against the influence of adrenaline and people always go on "unconscious autopilot" when attacked and you say my knowledge of striking needs work.



You really seem to have missed, not only what I've been saying, but, well, reality on a number of levels here. Badly.



RTKDCMB said:


> This part I agree with you - I can think of no good reason to stomp on someones head. One question though - how do you normally stomp on the wrists of the knife holder, is it after the knife has been removed or while they are still holding it? Just curious.



That depends entirely on the situation. But it does rely on them being taken down already, and I wouldn't suggest stomping a wrist that is holding a knife... there, I'd pick another target.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Mar 26, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> So, you only kick a person if theyre flying through the air?



Lol. I meant *on*the ground. You all should know by now I can't type worth a damn.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Mar 26, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> I wouldn't advise the head, mainly for legal reasons. The body, knees, joints, all good. I like stomping to wrists and elbows as a finish to knife defence, if the target presents itself (ankles as well), as it makes it rather difficult for the attacker to get back up again. Against an unarmed assault, I would caution avoiding such extreme responses.



Well yes, the head would be for only the most dire and extreme cases. Each threat must be dealt with appropriately, and deadly force is not dealt willy nilly.
Ankles I'm used to targeting, but not so much the arms and wrists. Hmmm, i think I will purposefully target them next class just because I haven't done so in recent memory.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Mar 26, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> This part I agree with you - I can think of no good reason to stomp on someones head.



I bet you could if you put some more serious thought into it. It all depends on whether or not you are willing to kill the person, which obviously is very rare and a very serious thing to consider.


----------



## Kframe (Mar 27, 2013)

Sorry I have not posted much, I have been reading the back and forth about punching and enjoying it.  Looking at my father, he does infact have a default kick he uses. I noticed when I turn a corner in his home, or some how unexpectedly run into him some where, his startle response involves a front snap kick.  He will go into what I can only guess is the TKD back stance, with all his weight on his rear leg, his arms come up into what looks like a Karate X block in front of his chest and his lead leg comes up and into position for the front snap kick. Its almost like he brings his front leg up to the chamber position of the kick. 

I have pretty much ruled out any kicks that involve jumping, no need for that kind of risk, not that I could do them anyways.  That leaves all the terrestrial kicks, the basic ones mentioned the front(both flavors) the side and round. All of which I have in my arsenal and can use proficiently in low line kicks.  That leaves the other 2 kicks, the back kick and the hook kick.  Are these of any consideration? I have seen a lot of people hook kick and fall over when impacting, which is bad for self defense usage.  The back kick, seems like a less risky kick, tho it does turn your back to the enemy, but it hits like a brick.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 27, 2013)

Er... right. Not going near the "startle" responce of your dad there... but what should be realized is that there really isn't a single form of kicking that is found across all martial arts. The forms of kicks found in TKD (and karate) are very different to those found in my systems, for example... or those found in Wing Chun... so when you talk about "the back kick", or "the hook kick", different arts, even if they have them, what is meant by the term could be quite different.


----------



## Cyriacus (Mar 27, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Sorry I have not posted much, I have been reading the back and forth about punching and enjoying it.  Looking at my father, he does infact have a default kick he uses. I noticed when I turn a corner in his home, or some how unexpectedly run into him some where, his startle response involves a front snap kick.  He will go into what I can only guess is the TKD back stance, with all his weight on his rear leg, his arms come up into what looks like a Karate X block in front of his chest and his lead leg comes up and into position for the front snap kick. Its almost like he brings his front leg up to the chamber position of the kick.
> 
> I have pretty much ruled out any kicks that involve jumping, no need for that kind of risk, not that I could do them anyways.  That leaves all the terrestrial kicks, the basic ones mentioned the front(both flavors) the side and round. All of which I have in my arsenal and can use proficiently in low line kicks.  That leaves the other 2 kicks, the back kick and the hook kick.  Are these of any consideration? I have seen a lot of people hook kick and fall over when impacting, which is bad for self defense usage.  The back kick, seems like a less risky kick, tho it does turn your back to the enemy, but it hits like a brick.



Back kicks and hook kicks, in a TKD and Karate, both have a period in which you are totally vulnerable. With that being said, there are some other ways you can use the hook kick motion, which is found in, from what ive seen, mostly Japanese MA as a low line movement.
From my perspective, rather than asking if theres any consideration for them, just ask yourself what youd be using them for, then ask yourself if you have something that already does the same thing. Depending on what you want a hook kick for, the answer will change.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 28, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Sorry I have not posted much, I have been reading the back and forth about punching and enjoying it. Looking at my father, he does infact have a default kick he uses. I noticed when I turn a corner in his home, or some how unexpectedly run into him some where, his startle response involves a front snap kick. He will go into what I can only guess is the TKD back stance, with all his weight on his rear leg, his arms come up into what looks like a Karate X block in front of his chest and his lead leg comes up and into position for the front snap kick. Its almost like he brings his front leg up to the chamber position of the kick.



He should probably cut back on the caffeine.



Kframe said:


> I have pretty much ruled out any kicks that involve jumping, no need for that kind of risk, not that I could do them anyways. That leaves all the terrestrial kicks, the basic ones mentioned the front(both flavors) the side and round. All of which I have in my arsenal and can use proficiently in low line kicks. That leaves the other 2 kicks, the back kick and the hook kick. Are these of any consideration? I have seen a lot of people hook kick and fall over when impacting, which is bad for self defense usage. The back kick, seems like a less risky kick, tho it does turn your back to the enemy, but it hits like a brick.



Since you mentioned TKD I am going to assume that you mean the TKD style hook kicks and back kicks. The hook kick id primarily designed to hit a target that moves after you hit it such as the head or in some cases the legs, it rely's on being able to follow through the target. When you try to hit a solid target such as the body and don't have enough momentum to follow through you get rebound which  can knock you on your butt if you can not compensate for it so it is not recommended to use it in that fashion. It makes a good sweep for the legs, you could also hook the leg as you sweep it. Although kicking to the head is not usually a good idea for self defence as it leaves your groin vulnerable the hook kick is probably one of the fastest kicks around in terms of foot velocity and if you are good or lucky enough to land one fully it can be a fight ender. I once knocked somebody out during his black belt grading with a hook kick and it only clipped him (he was alright soon after and passed). If you are going to use a hook kick it is better to use the heel than the ball of the foot. The back kick does leave you a little more vulnerable as you have to turn your back on the opponent but that can be mitigated a bit if you distract them with a strike before you turn around or use it after round or side kick. It is also useful if your opponent has gotten around to your back at kicking range, for example after they have blocked your side kick or the back of your leg or moved back away from your round kick and you have over-rotated it may be easier to turn around rather than step across. The back kick is arguably one of the most powerful kicks there is. All kicks and attacking movements leave you vulnerable to some extent you just have to do what you can do when the time is right. As for jumping kicks they are very risky  but they could have some uses such as if you have to help someone who is getting attacked and you run to help them you can suddenly jump and kick them rather than stop first to do something else. Or if you were getting chased by a guy and his friend jumps out in front of you to stop you then you could suddenly jump and kick him without slowing down much. So jumping kicks could still be useful but you it is very likely that you will get much of a chance to use them.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 28, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Actually, it does make a difference... 90 degrees means that, as the  knuckles impact, so will the front of the fingers, which can force them  back, and damage them. Less than 90 degrees, and the impact is with the  fore-knuckles, which take the brunt of the force. Yes, the fingers will  still contact, but they don't "impact" (take the major force of the  strike). Again, the words are important.



You missed my point, the angle I was referring to is the inside angle made by the back of the hand from the 2nd knuckles of the fingers to the wrist joint when the fist is formed. I don't know about anyone else but I can not make an angle smaller (more acute) than 90 degrees even with the fingers straight. When the thumb goes past the middle finger towards the pinky the first 2 fingers start to protrude and that is when the fingers get busted with the punch.



Chris Parker said:


> The head does, the bones don't. The jaw bone does. The nose does (when it breaks). The skull doesn't. And your hand breaks.



For one thing the bones usually travel with the head (the words are important remember) Secondly the only targets on the head for the punch are: the nose, jaw, chin, under the chin, the temporomandibular joint (I learned a new word), temple and the mastoid, these are the weakest portions of the head, if you want to keep your hands in good condition you do not hit the hard parts.




Chris Parker said:


> Yeah... look, to be blunt, knuckle push-ups are really useless for hand conditioning (as related to striking), finger push-ups are really only to help strengthen your fingers, not condition them for striking, and so on. Board and tile breaking, same, really. That's good for focus, but not so much for conditioning. Actual hand conditioning is closer to bag work, when all's said and done. Only the last two things you mention are related to (or applicable for) hand conditioning.



Knuckle pushups also help to strengthen the muscles, ligaments and tendons in the wrist and help to ensure the fists are clenched properly, this strengthening is increased with the twisting and the jumping knuckle pushups. 



Chris Parker said:


> Yeah... not sure what relevance this really has... other than you need more training in striking properly...



The relevance is: you mentioned the reason you prefer to use palm strikes is because of injuries caused by punching so I mentioned some other possible injuries in support of that so in essence you are disagreeing with me agreeing with you which I find disagreeable.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 29, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> You missed my point, the angle I was referring to is the inside angle made by the back of the hand from the 2nd knuckles of the fingers to the wrist joint when the fist is formed.



Huh? Did you want to rephrase that a little clearer? If you're trying to say that you're meaning the angle the first joint/bone of the finger makes down from the hand (when forming a fist), well, yeah, that's the same one I'm talking about. If you're saying something else, well... huh?



RTKDCMB said:


> I don't know about anyone else but I can not make an angle smaller (more acute) than 90 degrees even with the fingers straight. When the thumb goes past the middle finger towards the pinky the first 2 fingers start to protrude and that is when the fingers get busted with the punch.



Well, to start with, we actually form our fists a little differently to that, so you know... but more importantly, the issue of breaking your hands has been more about the knuckles or metacarpals, not the fingers themselves. That's a secondary injury, and is a result of impacting with the incorrect part of the fist.



RTKDCMB said:


> For one thing the bones usually travel with the head (the words are important remember) Secondly the only targets on the head for the punch are: the nose, jaw, chin, under the chin, the temporomandibular joint (I learned a new word), temple and the mastoid, these are the weakest portions of the head, if you want to keep your hands in good condition you do not hit the hard parts.


 
Oh dear lord... the head moves (when hitting the skull) because the neck it is placed on moves, not the skull inside the head itself. The jaw and nose (when broken) move inside the head itself, reducing the transferred force back into the hand by having the moving section of the target absorb a fair amount of the force in the first place. It's called kinetic transference, for the record. The skull doesn't allow absorption in the same way, as there is less kinetic transference, leading to a larger amount of force sent back into the impacting weapon (the fist). We're really dealing basic Newtonian physics here... every action etc... 

Oh, and your targets are "nose, jaw, jaw, jaw, jaw, temple, and the jaw". And I'd be very reticent to advise the temple. While it is the thinnest part of the skull, and can be broken easier than the rest of it, it's a fairly small target, and only allows absorption again when there's breaking occuring, and it's easy enough to miss and impact with the knuckles onto the hard, thick skull, leaving your hand as broken as before. But, for the record, you missed the base of the ear (behind the mastoid, for the record), the orbital bone, the cheekbone, and the base of the skull, as well as the top of the head, the point below the nose, the labrette point (under the lower lip), centre of the forehead, and so on. Each of these are targeted by our systems, but punching with a closed fist is not really advised there either.



RTKDCMB said:


> Knuckle pushups also help to strengthen the muscles, ligaments and tendons in the wrist and help to ensure the fists are clenched properly, this strengthening is increased with the twisting and the jumping knuckle pushups.



Which does absolutely nothing with regard to the cortical remodeling or other aspects of Wolff's Law you were talking about. And, for the record, due to the way push ups are done, it actually takes the wrist out of proper alignment for a strike, with more side-loading of pressure than a punch gives, which actually makes them more dangerous than regular push ups with no real benefit.



RTKDCMB said:


> The relevance is: you mentioned the reason you prefer to use palm strikes is because of injuries caused by punching so I mentioned some other possible injuries in support of that so in essence you are disagreeing with me agreeing with you which I find disagreeable.



All you demonstrated was that if you struck a target with bad form, you could injure yourself. It wasn't in favour of anything I was saying, nor was it really relevant to the argument on either side.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 29, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Well, to start with, we actually form our fists a little differently to that, so you know... but more importantly, the issue of breaking your hands has been more about the knuckles or metacarpals, not the fingers themselves. That's a secondary injury, and is a result of impacting with the incorrect part of the fist.



True although a broken hand will not necessarily end a fight. 



Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and your targets are "nose, jaw, jaw, jaw, jaw, temple, and the jaw". And I'd be very reticent to advise the temple. While it is the thinnest part of the skull, and can be broken easier than the rest of it, it's a fairly small target, and only allows absorption again when there's breaking occuring, and it's easy enough to miss and impact with the knuckles onto the hard, thick skull, leaving your hand as broken as before. But, for the record, you missed the base of the ear (behind the mastoid, for the record), the orbital bone, the cheekbone, and the base of the skull, as well as the top of the head, the point below the nose, the labrette point (under the lower lip), centre of the forehead, and so on. Each of these are targeted by our systems, but punching with a closed fist is not really advised there either.



 I was referring to the targets of the punch not targets for just anything. Yes I missed the cheekbone, thank you for pointing that out. The base of the skull is more of a target for the knife hand strike. the jaw joint I was referring to is just under the ear where the jaw bone meets the skull. Punching anywhere near the mouth is a bad idea unless you want teeth imbedded in your hand. The point below the nose you are referring to is called the philtrim area and is usually a target for the middle knuckle fist or the bear hand (panther fist or whatever you want to call it). The top of the head is more for the hammer fist, I would never punch there. The center of the forehead is not really a good target for anything this is the most likely spot to break your hand on and the orbital bone is not much better so I wouldn't punch there either. The temple, struck with either the front or the back of the knuckles, is not that hard to hit when you are accurate and skillful and you don't have to hit it hard enough to break your hand for it to have a desirable (for you) effect.



Chris Parker said:


> Which does absolutely nothing with regard to the cortical remodeling or other aspects of Wolff's Law you were talking about.




I will concede the point about cortical remodeling but Wolff's law still applies.



Chris Parker said:


> And, for the record, due to the way push ups are done, it actually takes the wrist out of proper alignment for a strike, with more side-loading of pressure than a punch gives, which actually makes them more dangerous than regular push ups with no real benefit.



I don't know how you think knuckle pushups are done but what you said is not true for the way others do them. Others get with plenty of benefits out of doing knuckle pushups with proper alignment.

Punching, like anything, if you don't believe in it, practice it or use it then it will do nothing for you, if you prefer open hand strikes to punching and/or don't use punching at all then good for you, we all have to use what works for us which is not always the same as what works for someone else.  That is the last I will say on the subject of punching in this kicking thread.


----------



## Kframe (Mar 29, 2013)

I have been watching videos of the TKD hook kick. Does anyone have any videos of it being performed against low targets such as legs and knees?  I am currently using the video to practices the core movements of the kick, but I lack the flexibility to do the actual kick high. 

With regards to front snap kicks, what is the proper impact area of the foot? Ball or heel? On my heavy bag, and other objects I try to impact with the balls of my feet.   Secondly, I know that the solar plexus is a preferred target, but what about the floating ribs? How do they stack up as targets.  I tend to target them first, as that was how I was taught by my boxing coach. He felt it was, in his experience(4xgolden gloves, 3xAAU titles)  that floating rib shots KO people faster then head shots.  So that is usually were I target when I drop down for a  lower body punch.  Since I have only done it in light to medium sparring I have not done it against anyone with real force. Whats your guys thoughs on aiming linear kicks, such as front snaps and side kicks and others to that area?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 29, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I have been watching videos of the TKD hook kick. Does anyone have any videos of it being performed against low targets such as legs and knees? I am currently using the video to practices the core movements of the kick, but I lack the flexibility to do the actual kick high.
> 
> With regards to front snap kicks, what is the proper impact area of the foot? Ball or heel? On my heavy bag, and other objects I try to impact with the balls of my feet. Secondly, I know that the solar plexus is a preferred target, but what about the floating ribs? How do they stack up as targets. I tend to target them first, as that was how I was taught by my boxing coach. He felt it was, in his experience(4xgolden gloves, 3xAAU titles) that floating rib shots KO people faster then head shots. So that is usually were I target when I drop down for a lower body punch. Since I have only done it in light to medium sparring I have not done it against anyone with real force. Whats your guys thoughs on aiming linear kicks, such as front snaps and side kicks and others to that area?



Hook kicks to the knees can be used very effectively as a take down or sweep.

We teach the impact area for the front snap kick as the ball of the foot. The heel is the impact point for thrust kicks. Generally... there are always exceptions.
Effective lower targets for the front snap kick would include the ones you mentioned, plus the liver, knees, thigh...


----------



## martial sparrer (Mar 29, 2013)

I am replying as someone that has learned kicks from a karate textbook....not insructor....I know tuere is a heel front kick vs penetrating front kick that uses ball of foot
I love heel kicks...the heel kick i enjoy doing is a spinning high heel, but it a bent body kick....not so realistic for sparring but fun to do

I beleive the liver shot is the right side of rib cage...this will take someone out quick...I think yu may die from this shot if hard enough because your liver can leak out toxins....
But again....someone on here will tell me i am wrong
QUOTE=Kframe;1564281]I have been watching videos of the TKD hook kick. Does anyone have any videos of it being performed against low targets such as legs and knees?  I am currently using the video to practices the core movements of the kick, but I lack the flexibility to do the actual kick high. 

With regards to front snap kicks, what is the proper impact area of the foot? Ball or heel? On my heavy bag, and other objects I try to impact with the balls of my feet.   Secondly, I know that the solar plexus is a preferred target, but what about the floating ribs? How do they stack up as targets.  I tend to target them first, as that was how I was taught by my boxing coach. He felt it was, in his experience(4xgolden gloves, 3xAAU titles)  that floating rib shots KO people faster then head shots.  So that is usually were I target when I drop down for a  lower body punch.  Since I have only done it in light to medium sparring I have not done it against anyone with real force. Whats your guys thoughs on aiming linear kicks, such as front snaps and side kicks and others to that area?[/QUOTE]


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 29, 2013)

martial sparrer said:


> I am replying as someone that has learned kicks from a karate textbook....not insructor....I know tuere is a heel front kick vs penetrating front kick that uses ball of foot
> I love heel kicks...the heel kick i enjoy doing is a spinning high heel, but it a bent body kick....not so realistic for sparring but fun to do



Hook kicks (which is what it sounds like you're describing) are entirely reasonable for sparring, and for self-defense, under the right circumstances.



martial sparrer said:


> I beleive the liver shot is the right side of rib cage...this will take someone out quick...I think yu may die from this shot if hard enough because your liver can leak out toxins....
> But again....someone on here will tell me i am wrong




Um, no. The liver is NOT going to leak out toxins. That is utter nonsense. Enough impact to the liver can cause it to bleed, which is obviously a Bad Thing (tm), but frankly this is very unlikely at the impact levels we're talking about here.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 29, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Um, no. The liver is NOT going to leak out toxins. That is utter nonsense. Enough impact to the liver can cause it to bleed, which is obviously a Bad Thing (tm), but frankly this is very unlikely at the impact levels we're talking about here.



I know getting hit in the liver area hurts like hell, and can stop a fight in many cases... but, assuming reasonable damage for a punch or kick, how long for a bleeding liver to really be a serious injury?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 29, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> I know getting hit in the liver area hurts like hell, and can stop a fight in many cases... but, assuming reasonable damage for a punch or kick, how long for a bleeding liver to really be a serious injury?



If we assume reasonable damage from a punch or kick, there won't BE any significant bleeding from the liver.

Liver lacs are graded from I-VI, with a I being essentially a bruise (less than 10% of the surface area of the liver involved) or small tear. These injuries rarely require anything other than observation.
A grade VI means the liver has essentially exploded and become separated from the various vascular structures. You're going to die fairly quickly.
 But, realistically, even if you stomp them while they're on the floor, you're unlikely to cause anything more than maybe a grade I. And against a standing, mobile opponent, you're very unlikely to cause any significant liver injury.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 30, 2013)

Since this thread on kicking seemed to go towards punching versus palm strikes which caused some disagreement over potential injuries so here is an article I just found so you can decide for yourselves.

http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/breakyourhand/breakyourhand.html


----------



## Aiki Lee (Mar 30, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> If we assume reasonable damage from a punch or kick, there won't BE any significant bleeding from the liver.
> 
> Liver lacs are graded from I-VI, with a I being essentially a bruise (less than 10% of the surface area of the liver involved) or small tear. These injuries rarely require anything other than observation.
> A grade VI means the liver has essentially exploded and become separated from the various vascular structures. You're going to die fairly quickly.
> But, realistically, even if you stomp them while they're on the floor, you're unlikely to cause anything more than maybe a grade I. And against a standing, mobile opponent, you're very unlikely to cause any significant liver injury.



Currious, which organs are the most easily damaged from someone punching or kicking in your opinion?


----------



## K-man (Mar 30, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Since this thread on kicking seemed to go towards punching versus palm strikes which caused some disagreement over potential injuries so here is an article I just found so you can decide for yourselves.
> 
> http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/breakyourhand/breakyourhand.html


Which reinforces the benefit of Makiwara training and further adds weight  to the argument against the horizontal fist.  :asian:


----------



## K-man (Mar 30, 2013)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Currious, which organs are the most easily damaged from someone punching or kicking in your opinion?


Kidneys immediately spring to mind and although not an organ, the bladder is quite vulnerable.   :asian:


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 30, 2013)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Currious, which organs are the most easily damaged from someone punching or kicking in your opinion?



Realistically? The only organ commonly injured by kicks/punches is the skin. There is often bruising in the underlying tissues. But that is pretty much it, in the VAST majority of cases. Occasionally there are injuries to the thin bones in the orbits, most commonly the cheek. Occasionally, there might be a concussion, usually a fairly mild one. The trachea and eyes are vulnerable, but rarely are they actually injured.

Injuries to the internal organs are possible, but really very unlikely.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 31, 2013)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Currious, which organs are the most easily damaged from someone punching or kicking in your opinion?



The brain through concussion and brain damage, kidneys can be bruised, ruptured or dislocated, the lungs can be collapsed and/or punctured with the ribs or collar bone, the bladder which actually is an organ can be ruptured especially if it is full at the time, the spleen can be ruptured and the eyes.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 31, 2013)

K-man said:


> Which reinforces the benefit of Makiwara training and further adds weight  to the argument against the horizontal fist.  :asian:



Adds weight to yes, topples over no. I could do with another Makiwara.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 31, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> The brain through concussion and brain damage, kidneys can be bruised, ruptured or dislocated, the lungs can be collapsed and/or punctured with the ribs or collar bone, the bladder which actually is an organ can be ruptured especially if it is full at the time, the spleen can be ruptured and the eyes.



Those are all fine theories. Want to take a guess how often these injuries actually occur in the real world? I've only been in the ER for better than 20 years...


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 31, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Those are all fine theories. Want to take a guess how often these injuries actually occur in the real world? I've only been in the ER for better than 20 years...



Probably not that many in just your ER alone is your ER a representative example of all ER's or are you in a more or less violent area than average?, What percentage of injuries have occurred as a result of assault? What percentage of those were classified as serious or minor? What percentage of those were the result of someone with martial arts or fight training that were the attackers? All would be  interesting to know. The question was "Which organs are the most easily damaged from someone punching or kicking" not "how common they were". However what is not theory is the bruised kidney my friend suffered in an assault once and the victims of assault I have seen on the NEWS that suffered brain damage.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 31, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Probably not that many in just your ER alone is your ER a representative example of all ER's or are you in a more or less violent area than average?, What percentage of injuries have occurred as a result of assault? What percentage of those were classified as serious or minor? What percentage of those were the result of someone with martial arts or fight training that were the attackers? All would be interesting to know. The question was "Which organs are the most easily damaged from someone punching or kicking" not "how common they were". However what is not theory is the bruised kidney my friend suffered in an assault once and the victims of assault I have seen on the NEWS that suffered brain damage.



We're in a somewhat more violent area than average, and given the large number of military servicemen involved in fights around here, it's safe to assume at least some degree of training. 
The reason those injuries make the NEWS is... because they're NEWS. NEWS isn't the injuries that occur every single day. And, truthfully, they're rarely as dramatic as the media makes them out to be.

I'm not trying to start an argument, (and am in fact totally uninterested in arguing, so if you're one of those who likes to have 'the last word', feel free.) I'm just pointing out the difference between theory and reality.


----------



## Chris Parker (Mar 31, 2013)

As you decided you would actually say more about hand striking in this thread...



RTKDCMB said:


> True although a broken hand will not necessarily end a fight.


 
And... where was it even intimated that it would? All that was intimated was that actions that can break your hand can break your hand...



RTKDCMB said:


> I was referring to the targets of the punch not targets for just anything. Yes I missed the cheekbone, thank you for pointing that out. The base of the skull is more of a target for the knife hand strike. the jaw joint I was referring to is just under the ear where the jaw bone meets the skull. Punching anywhere near the mouth is a bad idea unless you want teeth imbedded in your hand. The point below the nose you are referring to is called the philtrim area and is usually a target for the middle knuckle fist or the bear hand (panther fist or whatever you want to call it). The top of the head is more for the hammer fist, I would never punch there. The center of the forehead is not really a good target for anything this is the most likely spot to break your hand on and the orbital bone is not much better so I wouldn't punch there either. The temple, struck with either the front or the back of the knuckles, is not that hard to hit when you are accurate and skillful and you don't have to hit it hard enough to break your hand for it to have a desirable (for you) effect.



And, again, you seem to have missed the point. For the record, I wasn't listing target areas for fists alone, and I'd argue that there are better hand-forms to use than the ones you're suggesting.



RTKDCMB said:


> I will concede the point about cortical remodeling but Wolff's law still applies.



Not in the way you're implying.



RTKDCMB said:


> I don't know how you think knuckle pushups are done but what you said is not true for the way others do them. Others get with plenty of benefits out of doing knuckle pushups with proper alignment.



Knuckle push-ups are basically done two ways; either with the hands close (approximately placed underneath your shoulders), which means that there is a lot of side-loading and strain placed on the wrists, or by having the hands further apart, maintaining a straight line for the wrist, but moving the effective stress up to the shoulders and upper arms, which means it doesn't do anything for conditioning the hands or wrists.

Again, knuckle push-ups don't actually do anything for striking or punching.



RTKDCMB said:


> Punching, like anything, if you don't believe in it, practice it or use it then it will do nothing for you, if you prefer open hand strikes to punching and/or don't use punching at all then good for you, we all have to use what works for us which is not always the same as what works for someone else.  That is the last I will say on the subject of punching in this kicking thread.



No. For one thing, you've assigned a false value here... closed fists are quite prominent in my training, and I definitely use them. Second, while the belief can lead to preferences, having a belief that you can fly doesn't mean you can, and those that can't just don't believe in it. It's a big difference between arguing that a closed fist to a large, dense bone mass is riskier than an open hand to that same bone mass, and that closed fists just "don't work for someone else". 



RTKDCMB said:


> Since this thread on kicking seemed to go towards punching versus palm strikes which caused some disagreement over potential injuries so here is an article I just found so you can decide for yourselves.
> 
> http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/breakyourhand/breakyourhand.html



Well, personally, I feel that the article was a whole lot of nothing. Firstly, there are many records of broken hands in pugilistic sports, whether straight-out boxing, kickboxing, MMA, or anything else... all with closed fists, with or without gloves. So his first comment on the "myth" is false. He also misses that, in many of the older bare-knuckle fighting forms, closed fists would often be used only in the initial rounds... open hands would be prevalent later, which was often due to injuries to the hands sustained by using a closed fist. Then you get his take on a palm strike.... which is just an incredibly bad example, and a deeply flawed way of using one. When I strike with a palm, the wrist is almost straight, not the over-bent form he's showing here. This is an old trick, where you show a flawed version of whatever it is you're trying to discredit, in order to make your argument seem more valid... 

As far as conditioning methods, he's basically advocating the exact same method that traditional arts use... striking, often supplemented by an ointment in order to strengthen the skin and reduce injury there. Nothing about knuckle push-ups, breaking objects, or anything else you suggested earlier.

Oh, and his biomechanics for a punch are flawed as well, due to a heavy bias, rather than anything actually correct. All in all, not a good article, with no support to many of the claims it's making.


----------



## Kframe (Mar 31, 2013)

I don't know what bearing, this will have on the punching aspect of this thread, but ill throw it out there any ways.   I talked to one of my friends at work. He is the person that got me started in boxing, before sending me to another for training proper, as his health would not allow it. He him self has 2x golden gloves. Needless to say I respect his opinion. I mention this only so people realize im not talking about some untrained street hooligan.   

We were talking about street fights, and he mentioned that he got into 4 of them, all during his active boxing years.   During that interesting conversation, one of the things I asked him was, did you break your hands in any of the fights?  He said no, so i asked him how he managed to avoid that. He told me, he know were to punch and had the control and accuracy to punch those places that were the least risk.    In one fight, he lead off with 3 stiff jabs to the guys face, like right on the nose.  Followed by a right straight to the chest,  and another stiff left to the face again.  Thus ending that fight.   He told me that in all his fights, he targeted the chest and the face and jaw, for anything else would be detrimental to his hands.  

He also mentioned that he didn't just unleash a storm of punches, he kept his volume of punches very low. Only using a few at a time.  

Now he is a golden glove boxer, and at 62 i would not want to step into the ring with him. He still has it if you know what i mean. I don't think this proves or disproves anything, other then, Practice a heck of a lot, know were to strike that has the least amount of risk, and have a proper fist.(for your style that is)

Now on to kicks. I have been watching KwonKickers tutorials on the hook kick and spinning hook kick. I had no idea that those were 2 different animals. Im finding the foot work to be a little difficult. I keep loosing balance during the cross steps.  More practice is needed lol.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 31, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Those are all fine theories. Want to take a guess how often these injuries actually occur in the real world? I've only been in the ER for better than 20 years...


Well...  Concussions do happen a lot.  In fact, probably a lot more than we know.  As to the rest.. don' know.


----------



## K-man (Mar 31, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Any reasonable amount of stress on the bones will strengthen them (Wolfe's law, cortical remodeling), a single punch through 2 or 3 boards will do more to condition the hands than a single punch on a punching bag. Stronger fingers mean that you can clench the fist tighter.


There seems to have been a bit of discussion stemming from this para.  "Any reasonable amount of stress on the bones will strengthen them (Wolfe's law, cortical remodeling)", is true. But the following comments are not related.  'The stress' referred to under Wolff's law is in regard to weight bearing (increasing with weightlifting and decreasing with astronauts) or usage apply stress via ligaments, as in a tennis serve.  'Cortical remodelling' is the natural loss and redeposition of the bone. Not a lot to do with the stress as we are discussing.

So, knuckle push-ups? They will certainly build callous tissue and if you are lifting off the floor you might get the micro fractures that will cause an increase in bone density. Striking a makiwara has the same effect. Striking a heavy bag _might_ strengthen the bone where ligaments attach and will make sure your alignment is correct.

if you really want to strengthen the bones in your knuckles, you need to punch a hard surface hard enough to damage the bone, so it reforms with less porous structure.  I'm not convinced that this is the greatest idea for recreational martial artists. Building callous tissue will insulated the hands from the stress of a bone on bone strike and, for me, is the preferred option. :asian:


----------



## Cyriacus (Apr 29, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> I beg to differ, good sir. I cant use my right hands knuckles, and i still think punching is better than palming or elbowing



Its been a little while, but i remember making this post.

Alrighty. Short version? I was wrong. Simple as that, really. Itd take a while to explain why, but basically, i spent this weekend just gone interrogating some things about palm strikes a bit with a few friends, and the simplest form of the conclusion i came to is that i was wrong, and i was missing two vital pieces of information. Or rather, i was misunderstanding two vital pieces of information, then i used them to defend a flawed case. And i was missing some details.

Ill leave it at that. I just felt like i should put this out there. 
:lurk:


----------



## Zenjael (May 1, 2013)

The front kick is the most effective way to stop any on coming opponent not sprinting at you. Step to the side and kneeing to the sternum will handle any person running at you.


----------



## harlan (May 1, 2013)

Just saw the thread...sorry 9 pages too much to go through. 

How many kicks needed? One. Or as many as it takes to get the head where I want it.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (May 2, 2013)

......it depends how well you can kick


----------



## Cyriacus (May 2, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> The front kick is the most effective way to stop any on coming opponent not sprinting at you. Step to the side and kneeing to the sternum will handle any person running at you.



Oh, Zanjael.

If you step to the side and knee to the sternum youre politely putting yourself up on one leg against someones full momentum, then letting them get so close to you that you can free-standingly knee them. Im not even going to go into more detail than that. Im in a good mood.


----------



## Aiki Lee (May 6, 2013)

Zenjael said:


> The front kick is the mosteffective way to stop any on coming opponent not sprinting at you. Step to theside and kneeing to the sternum will handle any person running at you.


 
What kind of front kick? Targeting what?
How do you plan to knee a person in the sternum withoutlosing balance? And why the sternum? Why not the solar plexus? 
Please elaborate, I&#8217;m interested in your train of thoughtand would like to see where you are coming from.


----------

