# Anyone know about Shou Shu?



## Menzi (May 8, 2005)

I am interested to begin training in a style of kung fu. Currently there is only one school in my area that offers Chinese martial arts (there used to also be a San Soo one operating but has been shut down for years, before I even got here). 
The school I am looking at say they practice a style they called Shou Shu, which claims to encompasses the fighting styles of seven animals: bear, tiger, crane, mantis, cobra, mongoose, and dragon. It includes punching, kicking, some joint locks, throws, weapons, etc. It was founded by da shifu Al Moore, who brought it over from training in China in 1940's or 50's. Here are a couple links of their sites for info: 
www.mooreschinesemartialarts.com/
http://www.shengchikungfu.com/school/about_art1.html

I just like to check if anyone happens to know anything about this particular school, and perhaps help me determine its credibility. My focus is primarily on self-defense, and the instructor I spoke to seem pretty grounded in being practical. But at the same time, since I am not too familiar with CMA in general, I'm not sure how seriously I can take the concept of mimicking seven animals in a fighting art, or the effectiveness of that. Any help regarding this is appreciated. Cheers.


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## 7starmantis (May 8, 2005)

I dont know, the second site (shengchikungfu.com) seems a bit off. Its allways a bit of a red flag to hear someone talking about their style's history as being too large to write down, or allways been a secret, so its impossible to trace, etc. They talk about it being the oldest martial arts, yet their lineage can only be traced back to one man who is still alive. Their use of chinese titles is a little mixed up, but that doesn't mean much.

 Bottom line, you need to watch or try a class if they allow that and talk to students and teachers.

 7sm


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## PantherFist (May 8, 2005)

Hello all 

Though I have never seen the style in action, there have been various threads about this style on another martial arts forum.  In fact it got very very heated.  One of the reasons being is that students and Sifu of the style make exagerated claims that they can teach you to fight more than 10+ people at once and win.  No matter how much people tried to tell them that was practicaly impossible they wouldn't listen.


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## 7starmantis (May 9, 2005)

PantherFist said:
			
		

> Hello all
> 
> Though I have never seen the style in action, there have been various threads about this style on another martial arts forum. In fact it got very very heated. One of the reasons being is that students and Sifu of the style make exagerated claims that they can teach you to fight more than 10+ people at once and win. No matter how much people tried to tell them that was practicaly impossible they wouldn't listen.


 Pantherfist,
 Welcome to MartialTalk!! I see you have quite extensive experience in the martial arts, its good to have you here, I look forward to reading more posts from you. 
   On behalf of the staff of MT, welcome! If you have any questions, please ask. Also here are our forum rules for reference. 

   MT Senior Mod
   7starmantis
   Adam C


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## Simon Curran (May 9, 2005)

PantherFist said:
			
		

> One of the reasons being is that students and Sifu of the style make exagerated claims that they can teach you to fight more than 10+ people at once and win. No matter how much people tried to tell them that was practicaly impossible they wouldn't listen.


This is when our friend the machine gun comes into play...


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## clfsean (May 9, 2005)

I answered the question for you on budoseek as well... 


http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99399#post99399


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## SwedishChef (May 9, 2005)

"Ancient" styles that you've never heard of always bother me.  People can't keep secrets for two days much less thousands of years.


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## Black Tiger Fist (May 9, 2005)

SwedishChef said:
			
		

> "Ancient" styles that you've never heard of always bother me. People can't keep secrets for two days much less thousands of years.


heh heh heh he he...lol

I like that one lol

You know there are not many styles more secretive than black tiger, yet ppl still know of black tiger. I'd say that's saying alot. There are many styles that are almost impossiable to find like Li Gar, Mok Gar, Tai Tzu's, etc.... yet people have heard of them.

I'm not going to say anything negative about Shou Shu, but it just seems suspect to me.

jeff


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## Menzi (May 9, 2005)

Hey all. Your doubts reflect mine as well when I posted this thread. Well, to be fair, after browsing a couple other forums, I found that the Shou Shu people deny any affiliation with the second link www.shengchikungfu.com/school/about_art1.html

In any case, their lineage is still spotty at best. My quandary is that I can find no other CMA in my neck of the woods, so I'm going to give them a shot with that free class and see how it goes. My approach is a bit pragmatic in that if they got no history, but can teach me how to handle myself, and give a hard workout, then I'm fine.

The reason I'm looking for a CMA is that I have enrolled in jujutsu for a short period of time now, and found that I need to bulk up my striking capabilities, lest I have trouble getting my hands on a fast/strong opponent, much less apply a joint lock. And no, I can't find Muay Thai around here either. Oh well, I'll see how it goes.


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## Crom (May 9, 2005)

Don't know anything bout the style but saw this thread and thought you might be interested, its not very long though.


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20603


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## Steve Nugent (May 9, 2005)

I have been a student of Shou Shu for more than a few years. I do not know for certain what the origins of Shou Shu are, but I do know it is a great self defense system. Prior to studing Shou Shu I studied Judo (3 Years) Kempo (3 Years). For me Shou Shu is a very effective system. Shou Shu is an seven animals system, each animal represents the next degree. Bear 1st degree, Tiger 2nd degree, Mongoose 3rd degree, Crane 4th degree, Mantis 5th degree, Cobra 6th degree, Dragon 7th degree. Learning Shou Shu is difficult but is very rewarding. There are about 15 schools in California that teach approixmately 2,500 students. Shou Shu students earn their rank this is not a mcdojo. We train hard and are Teachers demand the best from us. 

Shifu Steve Nugent


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## MZH (Jul 17, 2012)

This is a very old thread but I have to agree with Shifu Steve. I go to Moores and ive sweated my *** off for my belts.  Ive also never bled more in training than at the Modesto studio.


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## clfsean (Jul 17, 2012)

MZH said:


> This is a very old thread but I have to agree with Shifu Steve. I go to Moores and ive sweated my *** off for my belts.  Ive also never bled more in training than at the Modesto studio.



Wow... 7 years ... 




and its suspect at best to be honest about being Chinese.


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 17, 2012)

clfsean said:


> Wow... 7 years ...
> 
> View attachment 17037
> 
> and its suspect at best to be honest about being Chinese.



Wow sean!   bro you still hanging round these parts?:ultracool


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## clfsean (Jul 17, 2012)

Black Tiger Fist said:


> Wow sean!   bro you still hanging round these parts?:ultracool



Always cousin!!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos & brevity of posts.


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 17, 2012)

clfsean said:


> Always cousin!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos & brevity of posts.



How's your training going... still teaching?


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## clfsean (Jul 17, 2012)

Black Tiger Fist said:


> How's your training going... still teaching?



Yeah man... more teaching than training, but staying upright!!

So you back down south or are you still stuck in NYC-istan?


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 17, 2012)

clfsean said:


> Yeah man... more teaching than training, but staying upright!!
> 
> So you back down south or are you still stuck in NYC-istan?



I'm back down south... returned to take care of my grandmother!   I'm just getting back to training myself... I can't continue to waste the treasure I have (my sifu) I've been blessed!


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## martialarts4life (Sep 4, 2022)

Menzi said:


> I am interested to begin training in a style of kung fu. Currently there is only one school in my area that offers Chinese martial arts (there used to also be a San Soo one operating but has been shut down for years, before I even got here).
> The school I am looking at say they practice a style they called Shou Shu, which claims to encompasses the fighting styles of seven animals: bear, tiger, crane, mantis, cobra, mongoose, and dragon. It includes punching, kicking, some joint locks, throws, weapons, etc. It was founded by da shifu Al Moore, who brought it over from training in China in 1940's or 50's. Here are a couple links of their sites for info:
> www.mooreschinesemartialarts.com/
> http://www.shengchikungfu.com/school/about_art1.html
> ...


Yes, Al Moore, his brother Ralph Moore, and Al's son Vern (Al Moore, Jr.) were Tracy Kenpo Karate students in the early to mid 1960's.  They were beginner white belts with no prior training. They did not ever study directly from or with any of the Tracy brothers, but did study under assistant instructors Steven Labounty, Bob Blackmoore, and Ted Sumner. Mr. Labounty passed away recently, Mr. Blackmoore passed away about 20 years ago, and Mr. Sumner lives in Texas and still teaches part-time. I spoke with Al Tracy on the telephone in 2008, so that is where I got this information. After earning their 1st degree black belts, Al, Ralph, and Vern moved on to study a style called BoK Fu Do (System of the White Tiger) from Richard Lee in the late 1960's. Al and Ralph earned their black belts in the late 1960's, and Al Moore, Jr. earned his black belt in the early 1970's. Kind of odd that it wasn't a sash considering Mr. Lee teaches a kung fu style. Mr. Lee was a former high ranking Tracy kenpo black belt that broke off and started his own style. After earning their 1st degree black belts, the Moore's took over the lease of one of Mr. Lee's schools and opened their own school teaching their Americanized made-up style of Shou shu, which is simply just a blend of what they learned in Tracy kenpo and Bok Fu Do packaged under a fancy name with a slick marketing plan. Shou Shu has elements of Shuai Jaio or Chaio (pronounced "shu-ee-jow", Chinese wrestling originating in Beijing), which makes sense considering Mr. Lee's style would have a bit of that in the curriculum.

I have heard many different backstory's from those that are part of the Moore's chain of schools, however, nobody has been able to provide names of any Grandmaster's in China, pictures of training, tea ceremonies, copies of passports, etc., to substantiate any of the stories that I have heard about Al Moore's supposed training in China sometime after WWII. I did hear of someone named Lu Chin but no kung fu expert that I've spoken with (Doc Fai Wong, Tat-Mau Wong, the Lacey brothers. etc.) has ever heard of this person, if he ever existed.

One last thing, I find the combining of kung fu uniforms and a Japanese belt system to be quite odd. Richard Lee does have a similar uniform as well as small circular patches representing his organization, so I understand where the Moore's got their uniform system and animal patches on the belts. Karate is heavily influenced by the Chinese martial arts, so maybe that is why Al Moore decided to combine the two. Outside of the United States, one will never find this in Japan or China.


Steve Nugent said:


> I have been a student of Shou Shu for more than a few years. I do not know for certain what the origins of Shou Shu are, but I do know it is a great self defense system. Prior to studing Shou Shu I studied Judo (3 Years) Kempo (3 Years). For me Shou Shu is a very effective system. Shou Shu is an seven animals system, each animal represents the next degree. Bear 1st degree, Tiger 2nd degree, Mongoose 3rd degree, Crane 4th degree, Mantis 5th degree, Cobra 6th degree, Dragon 7th degree. Learning Shou Shu is difficult but is very rewarding. There are about 15 schools in California that teach approixmately 2,500 students. Shou Shu students earn their rank this is not a mcdojo. We train hard and are Teachers demand the best from us.
> 
> Shifu Steve Nugent


Yes, Al Moore, his brother Ralph Moore, and Al's son Vern (Al Moore, Jr.) were Tracy Kenpo Karate students in the early to mid 1960's.  They were beginner white belts with no prior training. They did not ever study directly from or with any of the Tracy brothers, but did study under assistant instructors Steven Labounty, Bob Blackmoore, and Ted Sumner. Mr. Labounty passed away recently, Mr. Blackmoore passed away about 20 years ago, and Mr. Sumner lives in Texas and still teaches part-time. I spoke with Al Tracy on the telephone in 2008, so that is where I got this information. After earning their 1st degree black belts, Al, Ralph, and Vern moved on to study a style called BoK Fu Do (System of the White Tiger) from Richard Lee in the late 1960's. Al and Ralph earned their black belts in the late 1960's, and Al Moore, Jr. earned his black belt in the early 1970's. Kind of odd that it wasn't a sash considering Mr. Lee teaches a kung fu style. Mr. Lee was a former high ranking Tracy kenpo black belt that broke off and started his own style. After earning their 1st degree black belts, the Moore's took over the lease of one of Mr. Lee's schools and opened their own school teaching their Americanized made-up style of Shou shu, which is simply just a blend of what they learned in Tracy kenpo and Bok Fu Do packaged under a fancy name with a slick marketing plan. Shou Shu has elements of Shuai Jaio or Chaio (pronounced "shu-ee-jow", Chinese wrestling originating in Beijing), which makes sense considering Mr. Lee's style would have a bit of that in the curriculum.

I have heard many different backstory's from those that are part of the Moore's chain of schools, however, nobody has been able to provide names of any Grandmaster's in China, pictures of training, tea ceremonies, copies of passports, etc., to substantiate any of the stories that I have heard about Al Moore's supposed training in China sometime after WWII. I did hear of someone named Lu Chin but no kung fu expert that I've spoken with (Doc Fai Wong, Tat-Mau Wong, the Lacey brothers. etc.) has ever heard of this person, if he ever existed.

One last thing, I find the combining of kung fu uniforms and a Japanese belt system to be quite odd. Richard Lee does have a similar uniform as well as small circular patches representing his organization, so I understand where the Moore's got their uniform system and animal patches on the belts. Karate is heavily influenced by the Chinese martial arts, so maybe that is why Al Moore decided to combine the two. Outside of the United States, one will never find this in Japan or China.


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## martialarts4life (Sep 4, 2022)

Menzi said:


> I am interested to begin training in a style of kung fu. Currently there is only one school in my area that offers Chinese martial arts (there used to also be a San Soo one operating but has been shut down for years, before I even got here).
> The school I am looking at say they practice a style they called Shou Shu, which claims to encompasses the fighting styles of seven animals: bear, tiger, crane, mantis, cobra, mongoose, and dragon. It includes punching, kicking, some joint locks, throws, weapons, etc. It was founded by da shifu Al Moore, who brought it over from training in China in 1940's or 50's. Here are a couple links of their sites for info:
> www.mooreschinesemartialarts.com/
> http://www.shengchikungfu.com/school/about_art1.html
> ...


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