# 1st Dan Testing Fee



## igillman (Apr 14, 2008)

Our school recently went under the USA Tae Kwon Do banner (the ones that do the US Olympic Team) and one of the changes I have noticed is the testing fee for 1st Dan. It used to be about $100 but now it is $500. The price increase seems a little steep and I wondered if the USA TKD people had a big hand in it. Their website does not show the testing/certification prices. My son is only one rank above me and with the way things were working out timing wise we were going to be going for black belt at the same time next year. At $100 a go we could do it but now that it is $500 I will let him go first and I will hang around at a lower rank for a while. If the instructor asks why I will tell him, "because the testing is so expensive". I have already told him that when he asked why we were not competing in a tournament, it was $70 per person per event!!!


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2008)

Here is the thing, if your Instructor only wants his student to get a USAT cedrt. then that will be the price, but if he would allow you to only recieve a house BB it could be lower. What are your intention for having a BB to become a school, maybe try to do international events or maybe just to say I recieved that must training. Every org. has there price if you got hough them and then so does your instructor so remember it is what you want.


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## ArmorOfGod (Apr 14, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Here is the thing, if your Instructor only wants his student to get a USAT cedrt. then that will be the price, but if he would allow you to only recieve a house BB it could be lower.


 
That is an excellent suggestion.  Like he said, ask if you could test for a house black belt and not have the usat certification with it.

I don't charge for black belt testing, but I am not a tkd school and I am not part of any associations that make me register my students.
I hate to say this, but junk like this is why taekwondo is known as the most expensive martial art.  It is a good martial art, but is filled with more money hungry people than any other style (in my opinion).

AoG


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2008)

ArmorOfGod said:


> That is an excellent suggestion. Like he said, ask if you could test for a house black belt and not have the usat certification with it.
> 
> I don't charge for black belt testing, but I am not a tkd school and I am not part of any associations that make me register my students.
> I hate to say this, but junk like this is why taekwondo is known as the most expensive martial art. It is a good martial art, but is filled with more money hungry people than any other style (in my opinion).
> ...


 
Well there are a few others but I will leave that alone. One thing is for sure it is expensive because Master set the tone. A KKW certs is only $90.00 plus sending off for it so another $10.00 plus whatever the instructor wants you to pay which is always outragous. Maybe I need to become a cert. actory and make tons of money signing a piece of paper.


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## igillman (Apr 14, 2008)

I like the idea of a "House BB" and I will probably ask him about it when the time comes. My son may need the real "certified" one to help him in life but I certainly do not need it for anything.


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## granfire (Apr 14, 2008)

Seems like a case of too many hands in the pot.

I can understand that prices fluctuate with the location, but a 500% increase...and I was upset when the yearly membership went up to 22 dollars...or is it the price of the mystique? I have been told that another practitioner was ask to pay somewhere around 1200 dollars for a subsequent dan test....I am not even going to tell you that that covers me for about the whole year, membership and testing fees...

But I guess I can't complain. Prices and duration to get that coveted Black Belt add to the mystique of 'uuuhhhhhh Black Belt'


The best of luck to you and your son...


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## IcemanSK (Apr 14, 2008)

I'm in agreement with Terry on this. A house BB might be the way to go for you. For your son, perhaps more. $500 is really steep tho!


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## Twin Fist (Apr 14, 2008)

I said it about the KKW, and I will say it again. THIS is why I dont trust, or value large orgs.

There is no reason what so ever to charge this much, other than that they CAN.

Good on you for letting your son get his, but me? I simply wouldnt do it.

The school I started in, underbelt tests were $20, BB tests were free. The only time we payed was IF we wanted to get a KKW card. Which no one did.

I plan on using the same set up.


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## Miles (Apr 14, 2008)

Please don't blame the Kukkiwon for this instructor's charges.  There may be other factors for why this instructor has raised HIS/HER charges, but it was not because of the Kukkiwon.

As Terry pointed out, the KKW's fees are set (and haven't changed in many years).

BTW,  I charge $150 for 1st dan test.  My students get a Kukkiwon cert, a black v-neck uniform, and an embroidered belt.   I suppose I could charge more, but I have a day job.  Having said that, I don't begrudge those instructors who need to charge more to keep the lights on.....

Miles


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2008)

Miles said:


> Please don't blame the Kukkiwon for this instructor's charges. There may be other factors for why this instructor has raised HIS/HER charges, but it was not because of the Kukkiwon.
> 
> As Terry pointed out, the KKW's fees are set (and haven't changed in many years).
> 
> ...


 
Very well said Miles


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## Sukerkin (Apr 14, 2008)

By way of a comparison between arts and countries, my Dan grade certifications cost me something like £15 ($30) a time.  So the fees mentioned above, you'll not be surprised to hear, sound outrageous to my ears.


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## IcemanSK (Apr 14, 2008)

Miles said:


> Please don't blame the Kukkiwon for this instructor's charges. There may be other factors for why this instructor has raised HIS/HER charges, but it was not because of the Kukkiwon.
> 
> As Terry pointed out, the KKW's fees are set (and haven't changed in many years).
> 
> ...


 

Neither do I begrudge instructors for making a buck or two. But $500.00 is excessive for 1st Dan.


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## fireman00 (Apr 14, 2008)

At my first dojang the fee started at 500 bucks and went up 250 dollars for subsequent Dan tests.

My current school charges 350 dollars per Dan test.  

Personally I've got no issues with folks making profit considering they have to give a cut to the certifying institute - be it KKW, AAU or USAT.


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## colinmatchett (Apr 14, 2008)

I am testing for my first dan in wtf taekwondo next month. The test fee is $ 350. Each of the geup testing fees are $ 40 per test. It is expensive but I am not sure what the going rates in the other arts are these days. When I received my 1st dan in karate in 1989, the test was $ 15 to cover the cost of the belt and the certificate. Of course, the ice I needed on my bruises after the BB test was on my dime.


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2008)

colinmatchett said:


> I am testing for my first dan in wtf taekwondo next month. The test fee is $ 350. Each of the geup testing fees are $ 40 per test. It is expensive but I am not sure what the going rates in the other arts are these days. When I received my 1st dan in karate in 1989, the test was $ 15 to cover the cost of the belt and the certificate. Of course, the ice I needed on my bruises after the BB test was on my dime.


 
That right there is about the norm in the community, the more expensive area's around me get up to $10,000 for a KKW certificate and they get to open a satelite school for the head instructor. That just kills me but still people do it. God Bless the all mighty dollar.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 14, 2008)

WHAT??

oh hell no.

I can open a NICE studio for 10K, and not have to worry about profit for the first year.

anyone who would pay that for a belt is ......................well, you figure it out


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## jks9199 (Apr 14, 2008)

Well... we're not TKD, under any affiliation, but we don't charge testing fees to underbelts at all.  And the initial black belt testing fee includes your membership to the association, as well as the clinic/camp fee for the weekend.

So, before I say $500 is outrageous... what's it include?  Is it just the privilige to say that your test was certified by the organization?  Or does it include other stuff?


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Well... we're not TKD, under any affiliation, but we don't charge testing fees to underbelts at all. And the initial black belt testing fee includes your membership to the association, as well as the clinic/camp fee for the weekend.
> 
> So, before I say $500 is outrageous... what's it include? Is it just the privilige to say that your test was certified by the organization? Or does it include other stuff?


 

OK here where I live the other guy not mentioning any names here, charges $500.00 what they get is a KKW certified BB thta cost $90.00 and a house belt. He does not bring anybody else in he is his own panel for testing. So for this it is high.

Now the person who charges $10,000 they get a KKW cert. we know the cost and the right to open a satellite school, this does not include the actual cost of opening a school. So he he is not getting anything really but each person has what they believe to be the best way.


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2008)

Twin Fist you are right but people will and do pay what they believe to be the market rate, just who sets this rate I have no ideal.


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## wade (Apr 14, 2008)

artyon:

Thanks. I have really enjoyed reading these post. Y'all have made my day.


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## Kacey (Apr 14, 2008)

What we charge depends on how many students are testing, who the testing instructor is, and how far away s/he comes from - testing fees have to cover the testing instructor's expenses and most come from out of state - although we usually hold a seminar as well, to help off-set the costs.  It's usually around $125-150 for I Dan.  If students want an ITF certificate, that's an extra $90.


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## mrhnau (Apr 14, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> That right there is about the norm in the community, the more expensive area's around me get up to $10,000 for a KKW certificate and they get to open a satelite school for the head instructor. That just kills me but still people do it. God Bless the all mighty dollar.


Dang, I'm in the wrong business! $10k? Good lord!


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## YoungMan (Apr 15, 2008)

Our organization charges about $250 for a 1st Dan test. However, having said that, let me explain why.
First, considering our GM's credentials, the testing fee is well worth it. This isn't some self-created grandmaster who creates his own organization and ranked himself through that, this is the real deal.
Second, considering that everything we do to put the testings on and take care of guests and judges (myself included) is top of the line, it's well worth it. That stuff's not free or cheap, and the greater fee only serves to allow us to have a setting in which students are proud to be part. You can have a test in a middle school gymnasium, or you can have it in a college gym and take the judges out to a gourmet restaurant. Your choice. Personally, I'd rather pay the extra money and get top of the line treatment. You get what you pay for, and our GM is not rich from testing fees. Oriental and Taekwondo custom dicates you treat your judges well or they will not return. That includes meals and drinks.
Now, if you want to charge students nothing to test, or the minimum, and get a bare bones test that no one feels proud to be part of, that's your perogative.


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## Fluffy (Apr 15, 2008)

I'm (Snohomish TKD) at $75 for Rec Black belt (Jr. Belt) and $200 for 1st Dan.  And that comes with Hwa Rang TKD certification.  I know it's not as big as an WTF/KKW cert but it's good enough for my students - because I say so.  Like my instructor says I'm a 5th Dan, and that's good enough for me.  

Maybe I should raise prices.......


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## matt.m (Apr 15, 2008)

Wow, our 1st Dan test are 120.  If you want KKW, not mandatory but a just beacuse kind of deal then I believe that is only 75 bucks for 1st dan.

500 just seems a bit much to me.


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## YoungMan (Apr 15, 2008)

Fluffy said:


> I'm (Snohomish TKD) at $75 for Rec Black belt (Jr. Belt) and $200 for 1st Dan. And that comes with Hwa Rang TKD certification. I know it's not as big as an WTF/KKW cert but it's good enough for my students - because I say so. Like my instructor says I'm a 5th Dan, and that's good enough for me.
> 
> Maybe I should raise prices.......


 
So basically you're saying you are a 5th Dan because your Instructor said you are 5th Dan. Am I reading that right?
I always tell black belts "you are X Dan because other Master Instructors (4th Dan and above) who don't care whether you pass or fail and have no vested interest in seeing you promote said you are X Dan".


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## Twin Fist (Apr 15, 2008)

young man,
if you LIKE the way your school does it, then good for you.

I would never participate in that sort of thing, but thats just me.

I myself wouldnt want to test anywhere other than my school, where i put in the hours sweating, bleeding, teaching and learning. And I was plenty proud to test there. A high school gym? whats special about that? My dojo is special. Thats where I put the hours in. A high school gym is just a place.

My testing board was my instructors, their instructor, and the other BB's from my school who were at least the rank I was testing for or higher. Thats plenty good enough for me, They are my brothers and sisters in martial arts, and their opinion is the only one I care about. They sat on the testing board not because I paid them, but because that is part of their DUTY, part of the responsibility of being Dan rank holders.

I would never accept payment to sit on a testing board.

We went out to eat after my test, they paid for my meal. 

Diffferent strokes for different folks I guess.


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## igillman (Apr 15, 2008)

For our $500 we get a KKW certificate in a plastic frame and a black belt. Our GM has his own federation that used to go straight to the KKW but now his federation (sound like Star Trek doesn't it) falls under the USA TKD people (who do the USA Olympic stuff) and they fall under the KKW.

We were charged about $100 for 1st Dan (maybe $150) when it was just us getting a KKW certificate. Now it is $500. The USA TKD stuff seems to have a bit of overhead or our GM has seen an opportunity to raise prices.

Our testing is $50 for coloured belts (low Gups) and then about $70 for higher Gups (roughly). Now I have a green belt I may stop testing and let the kids go on up to save money. We test every 2 months so it adds another $25 per month per person onto the regular monthly fee (I have 3 kids in it). I am in it for the fitness anyway so the colour of my belt doesn't matter too much, I just wanted a darker belt to make it look like I have been there a while.


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## jim777 (Apr 15, 2008)

At our school it's $300 dollars. All tests up to BB are $15, and include the new belt. For your $300 you get the test (obviously), and some money I'm sure goes to the members on the panel of judges to offset their travel costs and such. It _is_ an 8 to 10 hour test, so I honestly don't have a problem with taking care of those judges. You also get your embroidered belt and a new black dobok, and a fairly large crystal trophy which while completely unnecessary, looks fantastic next to the bowflex down in the basement or on your mantle in the livingroom.  I honestly don't think anyone comes out making money on these tests, though obviously some of the judges get compensated (again, justly and fairly in my opinion) for their time. Our school is not for profit, and if they did end up with left over cash from these tests it would feed back into the summer break party/barbecue (free for students and families) or the Christmas party (same deal, free again).

jim


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## granfire (Apr 15, 2008)

I really need to print this thread out and show it to the parents that complain about leaving too much money at our school! (I still would like to know what all is involved with an ITF/KKW certificate to varant the cost)

And considering the shock when learned the Sr master in our area was charging 50$ more for BB tests then my instructor...but he is in another town, different market. but since we are talking organizational fees...I am scratching my head.

(and what do you test for 8-10 hours?!)


Oh, the belt gets darker over time anyway, just don wash it!


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## Twin Fist (Apr 15, 2008)

granfire said:


> (and what do you test for 8-10 hours?!)



Yeah, thats my question too. Even a complex system like Kenpo doesnt take that long.


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## jim777 (Apr 15, 2008)

A number of things add into the length of the test, including fighting all of the black belts who show up (24 showed up at the last test) and a 5 mile run in the middle of the test it break it up. To be honest, the test itself is sort of a secret, so I wouldn't want to ruin it for any lower belts in our school who might just pop in here and see it, but there isn't a whole lot of just standing around


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## Twin Fist (Apr 15, 2008)

5 mile run in the middle of the test?

secret test?

no thanks


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## jim777 (Apr 15, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> 5 mile run in the middle of the test?
> 
> secret test?
> 
> no thanks


 
We are not a McDojo. We simply do not advertise the contents of the test to our students before the test.

Yes, there's a 5 mile run in the middle of the test. The run is through a fairly heavily wooded area as well, not on a nice neat track. Without giving too much away, some of the sparring of black belts you will definitely have to do on your test may just jump out of a tree in front of you. Maybe, possibly, 3 at a time. 
Surprise! :lol: Better hope it isn't raining (because we test in November).

There is also quite a lot of Hapkido as well in our curriculum, and a Hapkido portion is included on every promotion test. All of your pushups (100) situps (200) and Hapkido are done outside, in the concrete parking lot or in the field next to the school, depending on the weather. Rain means the field (see above about hoping). This is definitely the type of test that you are not guaranteed to pass though most do. It will also likely be the most physically demanding day of your life if you haven't served in the military. There's no secret to that part of it. What you are told coming into the test is that it will take you about 8 hours, more if there are more than 2 or 3 people testing. You are told about the outside Hapkido, pushups and situps (it's well know to the white belts), but not about the run. That's part of the 'secret'. Your written paper and its length is part of the secret. Reading it to the assembled crowd is part of the secret. There's more as well. If that all sounds like it's really just too much for you, or you believe your BB test should be a lot easier, shorter, or less strenuous, or whatever, there are lots of places around that will give you a black belt with a lot less effort and preparation required of you. We consider getting a BB from our school a point of pride, but it isn't for everyone. And, it's the same test for all, whether you're a 14 year old boy or a 62 year old woman. The test is the test end of story, and hasn't changed since the early 80's.
Again, our school charges $2 dollars a class, and there isn't a monthly fee. There are no association fees, contracts or dues. Student to instructor ratio is about 3 to 1, and it is non-profit; run by BB volunteers out of a donated 4-H barn. We are currently turning away all students under 16 (unless they are family members of current students) because we simply don't have the room to expand any further.

jim


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## Kacey (Apr 15, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> So basically you're saying you are a 5th Dan because your Instructor said you are 5th Dan. Am I reading that right?
> I always tell black belts "you are X Dan because other Master Instructors (4th Dan and above) who don't care whether you pass or fail and have no vested interest in seeing you promote said you are X Dan".



If I am reading Fluffy correctly, he, like myself, is more concerned with the opinion of the person who actually tested and promoted him than he is with a certificate from an organization that knows nothing about him except that his instructor and/or testing instructor signed a form stating that he has demonstrated the requirements for a particular rank.

I could get ITF certification if I wanted to - but no one in the ITF _knows_ me - my instructor, however, and his instructor, _do_ know me, will be present at my testing, and will be watching to determine if I am truly representative of the next rank I test for.  It is _their_ signatures on any certificates I have received in the past or might receive in the future that matter to me - not the stamped signature of a person at the head of an organization who doesn't know me and wouldn't recognize me if he saw me.  Organizational certificates are great if you want to compete at a level that requires them, or if you want them for other reasons of your own - but it is your instructor and his/her seniors who know you, and know _personally_ if you have met the required standards, and it is, therefore, their signatures that are important - at least to me.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 15, 2008)

Jim,
I am not saying that what you do is bad. Just like the guy that pays $500 for his BB test, if you WANT to do that, and you are happy with it, more power to you.

There is a huge difference between a McDojo and boot camp. I myself dont think a Dan test if the time for push ups and sit ups or running. I figure, if you are not in shape, I would know that, and I wouldnt let you test in the first place. So there is no need to demonstrate your ability to do push ups on the test. In 24 years, I have never heard of a belt test structured the way your group does yours. If it works for you, fine.

This is just my opinion, your milage may vary, do whatever works for you.


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## YoungMan (Apr 15, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> young man,
> if you LIKE the way your school does it, then good for you.
> 
> I would never participate in that sort of thing, but thats just me.
> ...


 
Twin Fists,

I don't mean to imply that judges (myself included) are monetarily compensated for judging. We aren't. We are compensated by being taken out to dinner at a nice restaurant, and having our meals and drinks paid for. This is Taekwondo custom and a way to ensure that good judges will agree to judge for you again. If I can't get good judges, I can't have a test because I can't judge my own students. I know some people do, but that's another topic. Sometimes judges who have driven quite a ways are repaid the cost of gas as well. But you don't make money judging, you do it to help students and support colleagues.
As for a college gym versus a middle school gym, it goes back to making testing memorable for students and making their support networks proud. You could hold it in a middle school gym, but a college or high school gymnasium seems more professional and memorable for something like this.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 15, 2008)

YoungMan
I get what you are saying. It makes sense if you are not testing your own students. If you are getting other BB's to come in from out of town, then at least paying their expenses makes perfect sense.

it may well be a TKD tradition, I am not sure. My TKD line hasnt had a korean in it since Jhoon Rhee in 1960.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 15, 2008)

I'm intrigued by the major differences in how it seems the TKD organisation runs than the JSA world does.

Like *Kacey* said above, the signatures on the certificates matter just as much as the stamp.  So my handful of Pounds gets me the approval of my sensei (who happens to be the highest ranked of our organisation in the country), the counter-signature of the head of IMAF-UK and the oversight approval of IMAF-Japan.  These are not fly-by-night McDojo organisations, far from it.

Why is it then that my grading costs are trivial and those mentioned above are astronomical?

If I am fortunate enough to be eligible to grade over _yodan_ before my sensei passes on, then it might get to be more expensive as I shall have to travel to mainland Europe to grade in front of some of the leading lights of the organisation.  Even then, the primay costs will be travel, not fees.


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## granfire (Apr 15, 2008)

roflmao, I do not run 5 miles - ever. I hate running and as I get older my knees are less forgiving...I guess to each his own...but since I am having requirements of class attendance for the 4 month prior to my grading I think it's fair that I leave my crunches and push-ups in class...


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## jim777 (Apr 15, 2008)

granfire said:


> roflmao, I do not run 5 miles - ever. I hate running and as I get older my knees are less forgiving...I guess to each his own...but since I am having requirements of class attendance for the 4 month prior to my grading I think it's fair that I leave my crunches and push-ups in class...


 
What can I say. I only attend the school, I don't make its rules.


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## Senjojutsu (Apr 16, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I'm intrigued by the major differences in how it seems the TKD organisation runs than the JSA world does.
> 
> Like *Kacey* said above, the signatures on the certificates matter just as much as the stamp. So my handful of Pounds gets me the approval of my sensei (who happens to be the highest ranked of our organisation in the country), the counter-signature of the head of IMAF-UK and the oversight approval of IMAF-Japan. These are not fly-by-night McDojo organisations, far from it.
> 
> ...


Hello Sukerkin, I was wondering the same thing.

If a few dollars of a BB certificate&#8217;s value go to &#8220;wet the beaks&#8221; and help support the home organization&#8217;s cash flow, then okay I guess.

However once you crack more than $100 in today&#8217;s money (okay maybe $150 with the dollar&#8217;s exchange rate) I do begin to wonder of the underlying focus.

It is to spread the gospel of TKD (insert other MA name here), or a cash scam against us dumb Westerners? Or if it is a US based MA franchise is it to help finance the Great Grandmaster Soke&#8217;s new Mercedes lease.

&#8220;Excessive testing fees&#8221; and the marketing of &#8220;secret techniques&#8221; have always been two red flags for me for BullSh!do. The selling of &#8220;style branded&#8221; vitamins & nutritional supplements is another. LOL

P.S. Required purchase exclusivity of branded (& overpriced) training equipment for a school's students is but another.


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## matt.m (Apr 16, 2008)

wow, 8-10 hr test.  On average, depending on the size of the testers in hapkido and tae kwon do it averages between 4-5 hours.  That would be for 1st dan.

Of course a 3rd dan test would be 8-10 hrs.  but that is a lot more material to go over.

I have designed my yudo program to take between 4-5 yrs. to test for BB, the same as the tkd and hkd programs already in place.


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## cdunn (Apr 16, 2008)

I just tested for chodan in Haidong. It cost.. a lot. However, between the embroidered belt, the uniform, gym rental (from an upscale athletic club), and hauling around the kwan jang nim for North America, I don't really feel like I got ripped off.


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## YoungMan (Apr 16, 2008)

That's kind of what I'm saying. Our Dan testing fees go to many various aspects of good testings, including having a certificate with a world credentialed name on it, gymnasium rental, and dinner/drinks for the judges. I've gone out to dinner with our GM and fellow judges after a testing, and our GM picks up the tab for everything because it's his organization and we are guests. The total bill must have been well over $500. That money must come from somewhere. And when you factor in 15-20 judges from 4th to 7th Dan, it adds up.
Also, if you bring in special guests from around the country or Korea, all their expenses must be paid for as well.


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## kwaichang (Apr 16, 2008)

Wow, time sure inflates those costs.  I too had payments of about $40 per rank test with the Shodan test running $150 and then another $100 to be certified as Sensei.  Five hundred is way too much, UNLESS, you're going to eventually open your own school, etc. as some have already stated above.
I've totally forgotten what the fees were for the more advanced dan levels were........I just keep the belts in a safe place.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 16, 2008)

15-20 judges?

wow


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## YoungMan (Apr 16, 2008)

Yes, although it varies from test to test. Our last Central Studio testing welcomed the new Head Instructor so, as a sign of respect, many Instructors from our organization came to show their support for him. There were at least 20 Masters there, from 4th Dan up to 7th Dan, and I'm being conservative. Now imagine paying for 20-25 Masters' meals and drinks at a fancy restaurant, and you can see why Dan testing fees can get pricey. But our GM has told us flat out he does not make money from these. Testing fees go to help the organization, not make him rich, which is why he also doesn't recommend teaching full time.
It was rather amusing watching 25 Masters in suits and ties go to the back room of our local 4-star eatery after the test. People must have thought it was a Mafia meeting or something.


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## GlassJaw (Apr 16, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Wow, time sure inflates those costs.  I too had payments of about $40 per rank test with the Shodan test running $150 and then another $100 to be certified as Sensei.



That's about what it is for us, too.  I don't think any part of 
the fees goes to our school; we turn it all in to our association.

We're hosted by a student organization at the local university, 
so our school expenses don't typically include rental of space 
(except when the university screws us over on room reservations).
Thus, we don't have the "keep the lights on" overhead; just 
equipment, supplies, and special event expenses (such as 
the occasional party, travel expense reimbursements for 
guest instructors, awards, subsidizing roadtrips for 
tournaments, etc.)

Color belt testing fees vary by rank (depending on expenses such 
as how many boards are needed for the breaking requirements and 
whether the rank involves a whole new belt or just a strip of electrical 
tape), but are $30-50.

First dan is, I believe, $125 and includes KKW certification, a new 
dobak, embroidered belt, and a souvenir challenge coin from our 
association engraved with the candidate's registration number.
The fee is pretty rock-bottom, but trying to squeeze more cash 
than necessary out of college students would only hurt the 
school.

I strongly suspect that our total expenses on a first dan testing 
exceed the revenue, and dues might be subsidizing it a little.

Oh, there's also annual blackbelt dues of $100(?) that the blackbelt 
pays to the association.  I don't know whether they have to pay 
that up front or if the first year's included in the testing fee.
Don't know. . .not there yet myself.

Dan


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## granfire (Apr 17, 2008)

Well, we used to rent a gym. places that have those spend a lot of money and deserve some compensation for the use...

No new uniform, only a certificate and a new belt...embroidered with your name....only maybe 5-7 judges, the highest ranks in the area...


Or you test in front of EVERYBODY at a national tournament, all the big guys are there (4th on up) they pick apart your uniform, interview you, etc and have you spar a lot of other high ranking BBs...and still no high fee...


Ok, not Olympic style and not KKW affiliated - as far as I know....but I guess for a few C's I can have that remedied as well....

I know it sounds like I am knocking tried and true methods, I am not, I am just astonished, that's all...


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## Twin Fist (Apr 17, 2008)

Gran,
dont be afraid of having your opinion. What works for other people might not work for you. And thats ok.

Just do what works for you, it is ok to disagree, and you are being very polite about it so no worries.


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## YoungMan (Apr 17, 2008)

It we just had a test with me judging and then everyone went home, I could get away with the minimum or no fee. 
Testing should be special, and good judges have to be treated well. Therefore the cost is more. We don't provide a new uniform, or pick apart the uniform you already wear, and you spar present black belts who are already 1st-3rd Dan. You don't spar higher black belts because they're judging.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 17, 2008)

It sounds to me (emphasis on the "to me" part) that the testing regime described is very much marketing lead.  

I can't criticise too harshly because it is not my organisation and I do not understand fully the cultural background from which the process sprang; so my words have to be weighed with their level of ignorance.  

That proviso laid, it does appear, to an outsider well versed in the essential nature of koryu martial arts, that the involvement of that much money in a rank test is far from a sign of health.  It is scented too heavily with business and not heavily enough with the essence of the art.

Forgive me if that impression is wide of the mark but as a general rule, whenever finance becomes too prominent in any endeavour of personal worth, then the original goal has a bad tendency to be washed away by the torrent of cash.


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## GlassJaw (Apr 21, 2008)

I wrote: 





> First dan is, I believe, $125 and includes KKW certification, a new
> dobak, embroidered belt, and a souvenir challenge coin from our
> association engraved with the candidate's registration number.


For the sake of accuracy, I wish to add that I learned the 
other day that KKW certification is not included, but is 
available at cost if the candidate desires it.

Dan


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## GlassJaw (Apr 21, 2008)

Ignore this message.  I accidentally posted twice, but couldn't figure out 
how to delete the duplicate, so I changed it to this.


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## Miles (Apr 24, 2008)

GlassJaw said:


> I wrote: For the sake of accuracy, I wish to add that I learned the
> other day that KKW certification is not included, but is
> available at cost if the candidate desires it.
> 
> Dan


 

The souvenir coin is pretty unique.  Are you by any chance part of the American Chung Do Kwan org under Master Henkel?

Miles


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## karate-dragon (Apr 24, 2008)

That seems to be a huge increase. We charge $100 for 1st Dan, and $200 for 2nd dan and each other Dan above that. Don't see why anyone can charge that much, but they do. This is an unregulated sport and each group can do whatever they want. THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH MARTIAL ARTS.


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## jim777 (Apr 25, 2008)

karate-dragon said:


> ......THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH MARTIAL ARTS.


 
Well.....I would say there is a built in problem with the premise of the thread, in that it is at least as important to see the price of the 1st Dan test in relation to other non-Dan tests and school tuition and fees and such. I can understand a higher Dan testing fee where the years of tuition leading up to the test were pretty low monetarily, and there were no (or small) other costs like association fees and such. Quality martial arts instruction isn't free in many places, so total cost of your black belt is at least as important as one single bill on the road to getting that black belt.

A $500 BB test smells far worse at a $100 a month school that also requires $100 tests every 3 months than it would at a $20 a month school with $15 tests twice a year, for example (IMHO). Taking the 1st Dan test price out of the schools total cost context doesn't really give you a true insight into the cost of the belt, any more than the price of the gown for a college graduation reflects on the total cost of that graduation.

jim


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## igillman (Apr 25, 2008)

We are a $100 per month school (discounted for families, 3 or more and it is $228 per month) with testing every 2 months at $50 per person for the lower belts and something like $70 for higher belts. We have high/low for some belts making about 16 tests between white and black belt. That makes the overall cost of a black belt quite high.

However, on the plus side, we can go as many times per week as we like, we have some very good instructors and it is in a convenient location.

I am going to sit at green belt for a while and let the kids go up. When they get red/black we will have 6 months to get ready for their black belts (if they want them). By then our contract will be up for renewal and one of the kids will be leaving home so it will be a perfect opportunity to re-evaluate the situation.


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## Jim Greenwood (Apr 25, 2008)

$10,000 for a certification!!! Holy S**T (poop)! 8O

I charge $150 for all my BB tests up to 3rd Dan and $300 for 4th Dan and up that covers the embroidered black belt or master belt, Certificate, my time and anyone elses time that I have on the board. I could see maybe Charging $100 per BB rank, like $100 for 1st, $200 for 2nd, $300 for 3rd but then leveling off after $300 to $500 for the rest after that it's just being money hungry!


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## YoungMan (Apr 26, 2008)

Charging a lot for a Dan test should not be a problem if what you offer is comparable to what you charge.
For example, if you charge $500 for a 1st Dan test, and your school is run by someone who has very little, if any, credibility outside a small circle, that could be a problem. 
If you charge $200-300, but you get recognition from an internationally known body, a test overseen by many legitimately ranked master instructors, and a certificate issued by an instructor with international credibility, I really don't see that as a problem. I'd be willing to pay for that.
My analogy is this: Harvard costs an arm and a leg to attend. But when you're finished, you have a diploma from possibly the greatest school in the country.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 26, 2008)

my question on charging for the test has always been Who gets the money and why. 
If I have trained with in the system for "X" number of years and know the material why do I have to pay to be tested? Dose it really cost that much to produce a pieace of paper with my name on it? Have I not earned the right to be tested based on my time in system and my accomplishments? Why should I pay those I may have never met to sign my papers?
Not trying to start a war of words but I have always thought that paying for any test was just a way to put more money in the instructors or someones pocket


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## terryl965 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tshadowchaser, here is a breakdown for my school for a BB test. My initial cost is $100.00 per tester, they recive a house certificate a new uniform and there belt. If they want a KKW certificate it is an additional $90.00 plus around $10.00 shipping and I get it back in about 6 weeks. If they want a board to be present for some reason then I tell them they need to pay each Master for there time and they work that out thereself.

I agree if I know why do I need to pay.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 26, 2008)

well, my BB test with Dr Boyd was free. His logic is since we had been teaching for 2 years at that point, he owed it to us.We got a belt, but no uniform, etc. All his BB tests were free.

The school I got my 2nd Dan from, BB tests cost started at 100, 2nd was 150, etc but we got  an embroidered belt, and boards were provided for the breaking, etc.

And as I have already stated, I have no interest in a KKW cert, but if that costs money, and the BB candidate wants one, then that costs should be added to the testing fee.

People do what works for them.


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## Jim Greenwood (Apr 26, 2008)

I charge a fee for BB test to cover boards, concrete, embroidered belt, certificate, my time to run the average 6 hour BB test just for one person, the time of other instructors on the testing board. If you had a school would you not feel your time and signature is worth something. I feel 6 hours of my time doing martial arts is well worth $150 if not more. IT is part of my living and what I do to support my family and 6 to 7 hours away from my family is worth more than nothing. Plus with that bb I am backing my students if the want to open and run a school so they can make money. I pay for my testing and I don't get free anything... I paid my dues with time, pain and sweat and yes money. If you feel geting your black belt is worth nothing then.... well. I don't think you should be over charged for it but it does cost for what you get. If you don't like the high prices of your current organization find one that is cheeper that you like.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 26, 2008)

Jim,
I  dont know your system, but I know how much it takes to fill up 6 hours of floor time.....I cant really see needing 6 HOURS for a BB test, but whatever. Thats going to be dependant on the system.

Recouping expenses is fine, plus I can understand that people take something more seriously if they had to pay for it, but I just dont see a BB test a a chance to make money off my students. I see it as a chance to celebrate my students achievement.

I am opening my dojo next month, so it will be a long time before I have to worry about it, but my plan is to have the BB test be free. Or at least to not cost any more than what i will be spending on materials and a new belt for them.

Thats just my opinion, i am not knocking anyone.


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## Jim Greenwood (Apr 26, 2008)

An adult white belt testing for yellow belt takes about 30 minutes (with my tests) and that's about average for each color belt level. I have them go thru everything for each color belt for a black belt test plus extra stuff that black belts need to do for their test and a few breaks (bathroom, drinks and resting time). Then I have a saki ceremony and black belt presentation directly after (if they pass, I have never had anyone fail a BB test and have over 25 Black Belts under me in the last 15 years of teaching).

Thank you for your oppinion.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 26, 2008)

yeah, thats one thing I saw at my Kenpo school, the tests were just the new material. We didnt have to get tested on the stuff from the last belt.

 In TKD, each test started from the bottom up, from the first kata to the last.

I prefere the latter. But I can see doing it either way. Like I have said all along, we will all have ideas about what is proper and best, and thats ok.


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## Jim Greenwood (Apr 27, 2008)

I was just explaining why my tests are so long. I used to have them spar mostly controlled full contact for an hour but eliminated that and reduced it to 3 six minute rounds with a 1 minute break between each round.

However any instructor does their testing is up to them Myself I prefer to make sure every black belt that walks out my door can do EVERYTHING I require for every belt. Or they dont deserve a black belt under me if they cant remember and perform each basic requirement.


Now as for the original question. I charge for everything I do at my school. Every time I go up there I am getting paid If not then Im not there (unless Im cleaning). I have bills to pay up there also the city utility office isnt going give me a break if I have to keep it warm there more on that day for that test if its a free test. If you dont run it like a business and give things away you wont be teaching long because you will be out of business. My time is valuable to me and I want paid for it. If people dont want to pay it then thats fine with me dont. I dont think I over charge by any means. The embroidered belts I get for my black belts cost me over $50 plus shipping. Paying for a test is no different than paying any other business for something you have a choice about how much you pay and for what you get. Do you want a Ford Focus or a Lexus or do you want something less? They all do basically the same thing but what is your certificate and the people who signed it worth? If you think $100 is high or $500 is high for what you are getting then guess what.. It is if you think it is a fair price for what you are getting then it is.


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## igillman (Apr 27, 2008)

Having read this entire thread so far (and being responsible for starting it) I think that I will take a close look at what a black belt test involves, what we get from it and what each of us can do with what we get.

I am in it for the fitness (going to the gym is boring) so, for me, a $500 test is not worth it. I can stay a green belt and get exactly the same from the classes as I would if I was a blue/brown/red/black etc...

For my kids it is a bit different. One of them wants to join the coastguard and a black belt would not hurt his chances and may even help him. That is when the $500 test may possibly be worth it. However, he is also in the sea cadets so that has priority over a black belt as it will help him a lot more.

One of my daughters is very good at TKD right now. Our school is now affiliated with the USA Tae Kwon Do group (US Olympic people) so if she is really good and at the right age then a $500 test would help her greatly, especially if she has the chance to go for an Olympic place.

I may end up going for a black belt eventually but what with prices going up all over the place and paycheques not moving up so much it is going to have to wait until after the kids have left home.

At $150 it was something we could all go for, at $500 we now need to consider what it will do for us. It was the price increase that got me too...

Around $150 - Before USA Tae Kwon Do affiliation.
$500 - After USA Tae Kwon Do affiliation.


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## Jim Greenwood (Apr 27, 2008)

Sounds like you got it figured out. Do what works best for you and your family and enjoy your training and learning together.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 27, 2008)

exactly right.

Do what works for you.

I can certainly understand your concern gillman, I mean, your price increased for no real reason (that you can see) and it increased a LOT. It wouldnt be prudent for you to just accept it without thought.


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## rchurch (May 1, 2008)

This is my first post here.  I joined because my 18 year old son has opened a stidio under his Grandmaster and I'm trying to learn all I can about the business side of martial arts (it's my money that opened the studio!).  

After reading these posts about costs here's where we stand:  he was told by the GM that he needed to be a 1st dan to be a TKD instructor.  He has studied kung fu for 6 years, and when he started talking to the GM about a studio she told him he needed to be a TKD instuctor also, because he would have more students to help pay the bills.  I agree, more kids are interested in TKD than kung fu.  She charged him $7,000 for his 1st dan belt and instructor's certification from kukkiwon.  6 months later, she informed that the kkw has now said he has to be a 2nd dan to be a studio owner.  Another $4,000.  When I questioned these costs, her answer is always, "It's the federation, not me, and you don't understand how martial arts business works.  You have to just trust me."  Maybe I don't know how martial arts business works, but I know how general business works, and this is outrageous.  Now she is saying he won't receive his kkw certification for the studio for up to 5 years, because "that's how they do business."  Am I being ripped off (as I feel I am) and what can I do at this point?  Thanks for any input on this!


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## terryl965 (May 1, 2008)

rchurch said:


> This is my first post here. I joined because my 18 year old son has opened a stidio under his Grandmaster and I'm trying to learn all I can about the business side of martial arts (it's my money that opened the studio!).
> 
> After reading these posts about costs here's where we stand: he was told by the GM that he needed to be a 1st dan to be a TKD instructor. He has studied kung fu for 6 years, and when he started talking to the GM about a studio she told him he needed to be a TKD instuctor also, because he would have more students to help pay the bills. I agree, more kids are interested in TKD than kung fu. She charged him $7,000 for his 1st dan belt and instructor's certification from kukkiwon. 6 months later, she informed that the kkw has now said he has to be a 2nd dan to be a studio owner. Another $4,000. When I questioned these costs, her answer is always, "It's the federation, not me, and you don't understand how martial arts business works. You have to just trust me." Maybe I don't know how martial arts business works, but I know how general business works, and this is outrageous. Now she is saying he won't receive his kkw certification for the studio for up to 5 years, because "that's how they do business." Am I being ripped off (as I feel I am) and what can I do at this point? Thanks for any input on this!


 

Bottom Line Yes a KKW certificate is only worth $70.00 US and another $10.00 or so for shipping it takes only maybe 6 weeks to get it back. That is a 1st degree, as far as an Instructor certificate you need to go to Korea and take the instructor course but it is not mandatory to open a school. She is telling you Lies, that is the bottom line period. Damm for $11000.00 dollars we can go to korea train and do the instructor course and go to the Bahama's for a couple of weeks and party like a mad man.
Please the website for the KKW is http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/index.jsp check it out for yourself and call her on it. These types of people need to quite ripping the general public off.


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## IcemanSK (May 1, 2008)

rchurch said:


> This is my first post here. I joined because my 18 year old son has opened a stidio under his Grandmaster and I'm trying to learn all I can about the business side of martial arts (it's my money that opened the studio!).
> 
> After reading these posts about costs here's where we stand: he was told by the GM that he needed to be a 1st dan to be a TKD instructor. He has studied kung fu for 6 years, and when he started talking to the GM about a studio she told him he needed to be a TKD instuctor also, because he would have more students to help pay the bills. I agree, more kids are interested in TKD than kung fu. She charged him $7,000 for his 1st dan belt and instructor's certification from kukkiwon. 6 months later, she informed that the kkw has now said he has to be a 2nd dan to be a studio owner. Another $4,000. When I questioned these costs, her answer is always, "It's the federation, not me, and you don't understand how martial arts business works. You have to just trust me." Maybe I don't know how martial arts business works, but I know how general business works, and this is outrageous. Now she is saying he won't receive his kkw certification for the studio for up to 5 years, because "that's how they do business." Am I being ripped off (as I feel I am) and what can I do at this point? Thanks for any input on this!


 
I second Terry's thoughts. That is an outrageous amount of money & not at all what a KKW cert. costs. In big letter Yes, you are being ripped off!

It's time to look elsewhere.


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## MeatWad2 (May 1, 2008)

I paid $250 for my black belt, but that was in Kempo...and that was in 1995.  I know the organization I was formerly with now charges $300.


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## Twin Fist (May 1, 2008)

You are not being ripped off, you are being RAPED.

If you havnt paid this money yet, DONT

If you have, CALL A LAWYER

SUE to get this back,  and contact the KKW to let them know this THIEF is out there.






rchurch said:


> Am I being ripped off (as I feel I am) and what can I do at this point?  Thanks for any input on this!


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## jks9199 (May 1, 2008)

rchurch said:


> This is my first post here.  I joined because my 18 year old son has opened a stidio under his Grandmaster and I'm trying to learn all I can about the business side of martial arts (it's my money that opened the studio!).
> 
> After reading these posts about costs here's where we stand:  he was told by the GM that he needed to be a 1st dan to be a TKD instructor.  He has studied kung fu for 6 years, and when he started talking to the GM about a studio she told him he needed to be a TKD instuctor also, because he would have more students to help pay the bills.  I agree, more kids are interested in TKD than kung fu.  She charged him $7,000 for his 1st dan belt and instructor's certification from kukkiwon.  6 months later, she informed that the kkw has now said he has to be a 2nd dan to be a studio owner.  Another $4,000.  When I questioned these costs, her answer is always, "It's the federation, not me, and you don't understand how martial arts business works.  You have to just trust me."  Maybe I don't know how martial arts business works, but I know how general business works, and this is outrageous.  Now she is saying he won't receive his kkw certification for the studio for up to 5 years, because "that's how they do business."  Am I being ripped off (as I feel I am) and what can I do at this point?  Thanks for any input on this!


Sounds like you're being suckered into a pyramid scheme to support the original instructor's school...  How much support and guidance are they providing to run the school?  I'd be extremely hesitant about a school owner who's 18, with (if I read you correctly) no real TKD training, but 5 years of kung fu training.  Especially as the economy is slowing, and people will be slowing their discretionary and luxury spending.  If you look at the various threads here about school ownership, you'll see that it's NOT exactly a quick path to fortune and riches... 

I'd suggest that your 18 year old invest that money instead into some business classes while continuing to train, and get legitimate, not bought & paid for, rank in anything he intends to teach.


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## Kacey (May 1, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I second Terry's thoughts. That is an outrageous amount of money & not at all what a KKW cert. costs. In big letter Yes, you are being ripped off!
> 
> It's time to look elsewhere.



What they said.  I paid $450 for my IV Dan about 3 years ago.  Had I wanted an ITF certificate, it would have been another $90 or so.  I have been an instructor since I was a I Dan, which started when I was teaching for another instructor; I've had my own class for 16 or 17 years.  While I've taken several instructor's courses, the cost was generally several hundred - not several thousand - dollars.  When I started my own class, my instructor didn't ask for money - he sat me down and explained the responsibility I was taking on, and made damn sure I knew what I was getting into before I started; since then, he's supported me every way he could, but rank was not the relevant factor; opportunity and desire were the keys.  You are being ripped off in a serious fashion.


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## Twin Fist (May 1, 2008)

everytime i think about this i get a little bit more mad


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## terryl965 (May 2, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> everytime i think about this i get a little bit more mad


 
Me too but yet everyday I hear storys like this. People are buying rank more and more.


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## Twin Fist (May 2, 2008)

Terry,
i dont think this kid is trying to buy rank, that chaps my butt too, but this kid is trying to do right, but is getting FLEECED.

Makes me want to do an attitude adjustment on the scab that is trying to get 11K for a 2nd dan cert.


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## terryl965 (May 2, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Terry,
> i dont think this kid is trying to buy rank, that chaps my butt too, but this kid is trying to do right, but is getting FLEECED.
> 
> Makes me want to do an attitude adjustment on the scab that is trying to get 11K for a 2nd dan cert.


 

True very true


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## Senjojutsu (May 2, 2008)

rchurch said:


> After reading these posts about costs here's where we stand: he was told by the GM that he needed to be a 1st dan to be a TKD instructor. He has studied kung fu for 6 years, and when he started talking to the GM about a studio she told him he needed to be a TKD instuctor also, because he would have more students to help pay the bills. I agree, more kids are interested in TKD than kung fu. She charged him $7,000 for his 1st dan belt and instructor's certification from kukkiwon. 6 months later, she informed that the kkw has now said he has to be a 2nd dan to be a studio owner. Another $4,000. When I questioned these costs, her answer is always, "It's the federation, not me, and you don't understand how martial arts business works. You have to just trust me." Maybe I don't know how martial arts business works, but I know how general business works, and this is outrageous. Now she is saying he won't receive his kkw certification for the studio for up to 5 years, because "that's how they do business." Am I being ripped off (as I feel I am) and what can I do at this point? Thanks for any input on this!


I dont know whether to laugh at you or to cry for you

But PLEASE call a lawyer to discuss and contact your local regulatory authorities  _i.e.,_ State Attorney General Consumer affairs branch, local Chamber of Commerce and Better Business Bureau.


Also if you are talking business models what commercial schools have been shown to be successful with an eighteen year-old head instructor? You may use similar entities such as gymnastics schools etc.

*$4,000... **$7,000 !!!*

Those fees are worthy of Oom Yung Doe/ Chung Moo Doe infamy of one John C Kim (and convicted tax felon btw).


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## Brad Dunne (May 2, 2008)

she informed that the kkw has now said he has to be a 2nd dan to be a studio owner.

Now she is saying he won't receive his kkw certification for the studio for up to 5 years, because "that's how they do business."

Before you attempt to do anything, you need to get, if at all possible, those two statements in writting. The KKW only deals with rank and training procedures, it has nothing to do with granting permission to anyone to start a school. If you do get them, then you should have sufficient grounds (check with a lawyer to be sure), to seek legal action against this person. 

In the "for what it's worth" segment, you are not the first and most likely, will not be the last, who has placed trust in an instructor, only to be taken advantage of. The martial arts is one of the leading canidates for such actions. On behalf of the legit instructors in the arts, we are sorry to find you in this position. This gives all of us a black eye, from the general public's viewpoint. :asian:


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 2, 2008)

Sad, very, very, very sad!  Do not pay anymore money to this person as they are fleecing you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Also make sure your son is on the right path.  *Rank is not what is really important but quality training*!


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## rchurch (May 2, 2008)

First, Thanks to everyone for their input and support.  I knew in my heart this was happening, but wanted to confirm.  I'd like to answer a few points made here if I may:

My son's first love is kung fu.  He has studied it diligently since he was 12.  He is very good, but will always be learning more.  The TKD was something the GM came up with strictly as a business decision.  He did some TKD training for a few years along with the kung fu, and studied TKD extensively for over a year to get his 1st Dan.  Probably averaged 6 or 7 hours per day, 3 - 6 days a week study.  He is very serious about his martial arts.  I do have to say she (the GM) is a good, knowlegable instructor and appreciate what she has taught him in both TKD and kung fu.  He definately does not believe in or want to "buy" belts.  As a matter of fact, he could really care less about belts, but when we discussed having a studio we knew he needed the belts. 

As far as getting anything in writing, I'm going to try, but she is very adamant about not even giving out any information, much less in writing.  Most everything I have learned, or am learning I've done on my own.  That is why I am so very glad to have found this forum.  If I get enough information I will contact the appropriate authorities to keep this from happening to anyone else.

Right now, my plan is to first, get into a position where I do not have to deal with this GM anymore.  I can't afford it.  We have some really good students and I want to continue offering them a martial arts studio they can be proud of and learn in, not only martial arts, but other life lessons.  Even though my son is only 18, he is actually very mature and has lived his life trying to learn the whole realm of being a martial artist, mind, body, and spirit.  We promote this at the studio.  

I'm not interested in making a lot of money, and neither is he.  He starts college this fall and plans to become a pharmacist.  Teaching kung fu is what he wants to do for people who are serious about learning it.  He wants a studio where people can come in and have a place to hang out, learn martial arts, and associate with other martial artists.  Like I said in the earlier post, TKD is taught to increase the number of students to make enough money to pay the bills.  And, please don't get me wrong, TKD is a respectable martial art, and I greatly admire people who are good at it, it's just that his preference is kung fu.

If anyone has any suggestions or more information I can use, I would more than appreciate it.  I want our students to learn, earn their ranks, and do so at a reasonable and legitimate price.  I don't want my lack of information and knowledge to have a negative impact on them or martial arts in general.

I apologize for this long post, but hopefully you can see, I'm searching for the best, most accurate information I can find.

Thanks!


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## terryl965 (May 2, 2008)

First off your GM or Instructor is a joke plan and simple no one can learn TKD and be proficant in a year sorry cannnot be done. I have been in the Martial Art for over Forty years and believe me it is impossible especially if she is rea;;y any good at Kung Fu way to many differences, one is a soft style while the other is hard the footwork alone would take someone a couple of years to get it down right. As far as your son he is too young to be the sole owner of a quality dojaang, my sons have been training since they where two and they are not able yet to run a successful school, they need someone with a background to build that school and that is me. What has yours son won on any circuit what international competition has he done in TKD, what has your sifu done to be so great at TKD nothing except claim to be something they are not. Please give me the name of the school and a website I would love to see who this is. Kukkiwon does not govern school owners they only produce certificates for those that want them. They have an instructor course but you have to go to Korea and take it not stay here and recieve one.

Last thing here with your son having limited knowledge of what TKD is maybe your best choice would be find a quality school and learn what TKD is. You are leading your son down a path of fraud and criminal behavior if you let him fleece students into believing they are really learning something. So please do it the right way take time to train and learn and teach material that will benefit everybody involved and get away from that instructor she is a bad influence on your son and her students.


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## rchurch (May 2, 2008)

I forgot one thing:  Twin Fists, I see you're from Nachodoches.  We are located in Bridge City, Texas, between Orange and Port Arthur.  Nice to know someone is that close.  I've enjoyed your input on this.


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## terryl965 (May 2, 2008)

rchurch said:


> I forgot one thing: Twin Fists, I see you're from Nachodoches. We are located in Bridge City, Texas, between Orange and Port Arthur. Nice to know someone is that close. I've enjoyed your input on this.


 
Well fellow Texan I am located in Arlington, please consider my above post and look into the Kukkiwon link I put in my other post on the back page. It will help explane alot.


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## dortiz (May 2, 2008)

I dont want to beat you up here but I have an issue with TKD being taught just to bring in the cash.  
If he is a Kung Fu guy and loves Kung Fu then he should teach Kung Fu.


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## terryl965 (May 2, 2008)

dortiz said:


> I dont want to beat you up here but I have an issue with TKD being taught just to bring in the cash.
> If he is a Kung Fu guy and loves Kung Fu then he should teach Kung Fu.


 
I beleive everyone would agree.


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## IcemanSK (May 2, 2008)

Another issue I'll bring up is the TKD question. As one that has been in TKD for more than 25 years, I can see that the GM treats TKD as a $$ making thing for herself. And if you pay her $$, she's telling you that you can too. That is a big red flag right there.:bs:

It makes me question her main art. 
RUN, do not walk away from this school!!!!!

I've seen a lot in martial arts in my time. This is among the worst!


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## rchurch (May 2, 2008)

terryl - thanks for your input.  I can tell you that neither my son or myself are trying to "fleese" anyone and hope that's not the impression anyone here is getting from these posts.  Like I said in the previous post, neither of us are trying to get rich off of this.  It's not how I make my living and never will be, and it won't be for my son either.  I look at it as a labor of love he has for martial arts.  I'll be happy to maybe make a few dollars to put back into the studio and improve it for our students.    

I'd like to clarify a few points if I may:  The Grandmaster I am dealing with is legit, as far as I have found.  She holds an 8th degree rank.  I would guess she is in her late 50's, early 60's, is Asian, from Mongolia she says, and claims to have been studying martial arts since she was 6.  In fact, last week she brought Grandmaster Han Man Park to our studio.  It's my understanding he has been involved with TKD since the 50's and is a legitimate member of the TKD community. I think if he knows her and deals with her, she must be known and legit.  I have no reason to doubt this, she actually is very good at martial arts and seems very knowlegable.  That is not my concern, my concern is her business practices.  

She is at the studio 3 and 4 days a week helping instruct.  We hired a 4th dan instructor for TKD when we opened.   My son only helps instruct TKD and is not the lead instructor.  He instructs the kung fu class, with help from the GM.  So, it's not just some 18 year old kid with limited experience and knowledge by himself trying to pass himself off as the end all-be all of martial arts.  We really are trying to offer quality, legitimate instruction.  

As stated earlier, my son has studied kung fu, mostly soft style for 6 years.  Because he was homeschooled, he had more time to study martial arts than other kids his age and most of his instructions were one on one with the Grandmaster.  I really feel he has learned quite a bit in only six years.  I agree he has a long way to go, but he will get there.  I know you, and everyone else, had to start somewhere.  You should feel blessed that your son's have your knowledge and experience to help them get their start, and that is what I'm trying to offer my son, a start in something he truly loves.


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## rchurch (May 2, 2008)

I'm sorry for the number of posts, it seems I've brought up a subject that is near and dear to everyones heart.  That makes me feel better about this whole situation, that there are artists out there who have a true love for what they do.

As far as teaching TKD just for the money, that may have been a poor choice of words on my part.  I hope in my past couple of posts I made it clear we are trying to be a upstanding, quality school.  All I meant was there are not enough people (in this area at least) interested in kung fu to have enough students to support a school.  Therefore, in order to increase the number of our students, we also offer TKD.  I hired someone to teach TKD who I feel is qualified so the students get what they are paying for.  My son teaches kung fu, it is his passion, but we have to pay the bills.  

If we were only looking to have the most students and make the most money, from what I've seen we should offer MMA, brazilizn jujitsu, etc.  It has surprised me the number of people who come in a say, "I want to learn MMA so I can beat people up" or something to that effect.  We politely turn those people away.


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## tshadowchaser (May 2, 2008)

Actually , we are happy when a thread gets many posts, so dont worry about that.

I think, from reading most of the thread, that most people feel the testing fees where to high and that if your son wants to teach Kung Fu then that is what he should teach. 
Having a 2nd art to teach a few days a week, or having a instructor in a different style  teach at different time periods of the day, are both good ways to supplement the income of the school.


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## Twin Fist (May 2, 2008)

Mr Church,
Sounds like both you and your son have the right idea. Here is the thing. If he wants to teach, he can teach Kung Fu. He has his instructors cert to teach that right? 

Now, TKD is an easier sell, if he wants to open a school. That much is true.

But here are the things you need to know for sure about TKD.

You do not need KKW certification.

No one needs it. the biggest advantage to it is that you get an extra sheepskin for your wall. Thats about it. yes, it does lend you some credibility, but ONLY among other TKD stylists that go through the KKW. No one outside TKD gives a rats butt for the KKW. Sorry if that offends anyone , but it is the truth.

No one in my lineage has a KKW cert and it hasnt hurt them one bit.

If he WANTS to learn TKD and teach it, fine, have him get his BB from someone legit, and he can teach it, Though i would recomend that he not event think about being a head instructor till he is at LEAST a 2nd Dan. If he really wants to learn TKD, either me or Terry can hook you up with someone close to you that is legit, hell, for that matter, I'll teach him.

Like i said, i really hope you havnt paid out this money yet. If you have, sue to get it back. DO NOT just write it off. Worse case, his GM revokes his teaching cert. Thats no great loss tho since she cant take back what he knows. And he can always get re-certified through someone else.

edited to add, you cannot afford to continue your association with this woman. Reputations are worth gold, and an instructor is known by whom he associates with. You need to sever ALL ties to this person


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## IcemanSK (May 2, 2008)

rchurch said:


> terryl - thanks for your input. I can tell you that neither my son or myself are trying to "fleese" anyone and hope that's not the impression anyone here is getting from these posts. Like I said in the previous post, neither of us are trying to get rich off of this. It's not how I make my living and never will be, and it won't be for my son either. I look at it as a labor of love he has for martial arts. I'll be happy to maybe make a few dollars to put back into the studio and improve it for our students.
> 
> I'd like to clarify a few points if I may: The Grandmaster I am dealing with is legit, as far as I have found. She holds an 8th degree rank. I would guess she is in her late 50's, early 60's, is Asian, from Mongolia she says, and claims to have been studying martial arts since she was 6. In fact, last week she brought Grandmaster Han Man Park to our studio. It's my understanding he has been involved with TKD since the 50's and is a legitimate member of the TKD community. I think if he knows her and deals with her, she must be known and legit. I have no reason to doubt this, she actually is very good at martial arts and seems very knowlegable. That is not my concern, my concern is her business practices.
> 
> ...


 
I don't question your sincerity, nor your son's. But there is nothing in what you've told us that makes me think for a second that your son's GM is offering anything legitimate or worthwhile for the obscene amount of money she is asking!

If this article is from your school: http://therecordlive.com/article.cfm?articleID=36842 I'm embarrassed for your son. The gentlemen's name is not Han Man Park, it's GM Hae Man Park. He is a very big deal in TKD. The fact that your son's instructor invited him to hold a seminar & called him by a wrong name is terrible! Your son's quote in the article about following the strict guidelines of the KKW is sad because what he is being told is, in fact NOT the guidelines of the KKW. Having GM Park at your son's test was a huge honor. It would explain in part why his test cost so much. But only if he were the only one testing. 

The best way I can describe what happened, based on what you've written & that article is this: You invited Mick Jagger to perform at your son's birthday party. Now you're being told that the only birthday party he can have in the future will cost nearly as much as this one. There are many other ways to get a KKW cert for A LOT less.


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## rchurch (May 2, 2008)

Twin Fists - That's kind of the path it looks like we should take.  We already have the school, and I really don't want to close it and tell the students, "too bad, see ya!"  They are good students and they deserve the best we can offer them.  I really think I can salvage this mess.

My son has his 2nd Dan and kkw certification.  He really just wants to teach kung fu.  Right now, the TKD and kung fu are seperate classes, not mixed together.  I plan on keeping it this way.  

When I break it off with this GM, I'll lose my TKD instructor.  That's a given.  So, my thoughts at this point is to find someone legit who either has a school already and wants to expand, or someone who is interested in being affiliated with a school, and who has the training, knowledge, certification, etc. to be an instructor and bascially run the training end of the school.  We'll do whatever is necessary to be legit.  My son will continue teaching kung fu, and I'll continue running the business side and we'll go from there.  As you can see, I have a lot ahead of me.  Any suggestions and guidance will of course be greatly appreciated.


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## Twin Fist (May 2, 2008)

Not to mention that if this lady was legit, she would pop up more hits on google than JUST the article already listed. there are not that many female 8th dan BB's in the world


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## Twin Fist (May 2, 2008)

All is not doom and gloom. As you said, he has his 2nd degree cert, from the KKW, no one can take that away. Well, I guess if she made a stink she MIGHT be able to, but I wouldnt worry about it.

he can keep his school open, and teach Kung Fu, as long as he has at least ONE BB level student, they can teach the TKD classes. If he doesnt have a BB level student, as a 2nd Dan, he can promote someone to at least 1st gup. They can teach the TKD classes, and he can get someone to either promote him or promote them.

Either way works.


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## rchurch (May 2, 2008)

Yes the article is about our school.  I have to admit, the spelling of his name is my fault, With the GM's accent, it sounded as if she was saying Han and not Hae.  I should have gotten a copy of the article before it was printed and had it proofread.

We do consider it an extreme honor for GM Park to present him with his belt.  I guess that's one good thing that has come out of this.  

As far as the example of inviting Mick Jagger to his birthday party, I agree, I just wish it could be my choice to invite him or not and not just have him show up and I have to pay for it!


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## Twin Fist (May 2, 2008)

it IS your choice.

wait, does this woman have ANY hold on your sons school legally?


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## rchurch (May 2, 2008)

No, none at all.  That's one thing I think we did right.  It's a dba under his name only.  Also, we have no contract whatsoever with her for anything.


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## rchurch (May 2, 2008)

Right now, the lease on the building is up August 1st.  I'm thinking if I do anything drastic at this point there is a chance we may lose some of our students, we may not get a replacement instructor right away, etc.  So, my thought is to set the groundwork for breaking away between now and August, make the change at the same time the lease is up, and if things go south after that we won't be tied into a lease and have no business.  I really think the building owner will let me go a couple of months without a lease and I hope we'll have things in place for a smooth transition.


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## dortiz (May 2, 2008)

So...I also see some Hap Ki Do uniforms and mention of that ranking. May I ask by whom and what Kwan?


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## rchurch (May 2, 2008)

The Hap Ki Do is something the GM has taught my son and he mixes it in with the kung fu some.  We don't teach it as a seperate art and no one is ranked in it, it's just something he has had some training in.  I could be wrong, but I believe it is affiliated with a GM Choi in Houston and the Intercontinential Hap Ki Do Federation or Association.  I'll ask more about it, sorry I don't know that much about it.


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## Twin Fist (May 2, 2008)

and the moral of the story is, if it doesnt have wheels, or a bedroom in it, it shouldnt cost 11K

Mr Church, make a clean break. And make it a TOTAL break


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## terryl965 (May 2, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Mr Church,
> Sounds like both you and your son have the right idea. Here is the thing. If he wants to teach, he can teach Kung Fu. He has his instructors cert to teach that right?
> 
> Now, TKD is an easier sell, if he wants to open a school. That much is true.
> ...


 

Actually Twin Fist you do have people with that type of line, it is GM Kurban he is a 7th Kukkiwon certified and Master Boyd he right under him all though he does not carry a KKW. So you have KKW in your linage of training.


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## IcemanSK (May 2, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> and the moral of the story is, if it doesnt have wheels, or a bedroom in it, it shouldnt cost 11K
> 
> Mr Church, make a clean break. And make it a TOTAL break


 

Mr. Church, my GM is a student of GM Park, Hae Man. He was at my 3rd Dan test last year as well. My test cost a fraction of your son's test. I can connect you with legit folks who can give your son the same credentials for much less than your son's GM. (Heck, several folks on this board can help your son get legit credentials cheaper!)

I want to know what you mean by "teaching credentials" in addition to the KKW cert. The only I know of is only available in Korea as a course at the KKW for instructors 4th Dan & higher. (One can take the instructor's course before 4th Dan, but the certification is only given AFTER one's receives 4th Dan KKW.

Everything I've read from you still says "find another GM!"


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## Twin Fist (May 2, 2008)

Terry,
i thought Mr Kurban had gotten his 8th now?

Remind me to talk to you sometime about that, apparently there is a whole long story behind Mr Kurban going with the KKW when more or less, no one else in the DFW TKD scene from the 70's did.


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## Brad Dunne (May 2, 2008)

My confusion meter has been pegged!.....First, a goggle search for this female 8th Dan GM showed nothing. One would think, that according to that news paper article, she is the highest female Dan holder in TKD, that something would be available as to her history. That's RED FLAG #1.

Again, according to given information, she's a Kung Fu Master, in addition to being a TKD GM in addition to being a Tai Chu (?) whatever. RED FLAG #2.......To many senior ranks in totally opposite disciplines IMO. 

The article stated that 3 persons received their 2nd Dan TKD from GM Park. Based on that statement, I assume that your son is now a 2nd Dan TKD/Kukkiwon certified. I find it difficult at best to relate to that promotion, if as you have stated, he studied Kung Fu and that is what he teaches. Something is surely askew here. It also stated that he teaches Hapkido and that the GM included said instructions in her curriculum. To be honest, it sounds more and more as if whatever is being taught, is being contrived from several venues, which does not make it that bad unto itself, but it should'nt be labeled as a given discipline, ie; TKD or Kung Fu. 

I'm sure that you are attempting to do the "right thing" here, otherwise you would not have open this pandoras box, so to speak. The conclusion I'm drawing from all this, is that you and your son are seemingly being duped, in more ways than one. 

On a side note: GM Parks visit is not of itself a condition for validating your GM. I'll just leave it at that.


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## terryl965 (May 2, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Terry,
> i thought Mr Kurban had gotten his 8th now?
> 
> Remind me to talk to you sometime about that, apparently there is a whole long story behind Mr Kurban going with the KKW when more or less, no one else in the DFW TKD scene from the 70's did.


 
I will be heading your way in a couple of weeks so maybe ZI will have some time for lunch or dinner and we can meet and talk.


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## Senjojutsu (May 3, 2008)

Brad Dunne said:


> My confusion meter has been pegged!.....First, a goggle search for this female 8th Dan GM showed nothing. One would think, that according to that news paper article, she is the highest female Dan holder in TKD, that something would be available as to her history. That's RED FLAG #1.


The linked article states: 
_"She has studied martial arts for 70 years and owns martial arts studios in 36 different countries worldwide."_

Does anyone else find that an odd phrase, "owning" - as in real estate?

So could this GM, who appears to have began her training at age six, name at least least six of the countries she owns (now open) schools if asked?

When was the last time she did a world tour of her empire? 

Or am I just being a cynical old fart and/or misogynist and begin to sense another Tae Yun Kim (a.k.a. Kyong-ae Fontaine)??
:EG:


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## IcemanSK (May 3, 2008)

Senjojutsu said:


> The linked article states:
> _"She has studied martial arts for 70 years and owns martial arts studios in 36 different countries worldwide."_
> 
> Does anyone else find that an odd phrase, "owning" - as in real estate?
> ...


 
This gentleman's GM is Kung Fu, not TKD. We're not talking about a TKD female GM.


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## jks9199 (May 3, 2008)

Senjojutsu said:


> The linked article states:
> _"She has studied martial arts for 70 years and owns martial arts studios in 36 different countries worldwide."_
> 
> Does anyone else find that an odd phrase, "owning" - as in real estate?
> ...


Owning a studio/kwan/dojo/dojang, in the sense of owning a business or a building, makes sense.  In many cases, TKD schools especially (in my experience) are franchised from a successful school.  Some of these franchised groups cover many states.

Not that there aren't some significant red flags about the instructor here...

Let me return to the topic at hand, though...  The idea that rchurch is promoting is great... but expensive.  The simple fact is that if you're going to run a school, rather than have a club renting space, you almost have to run it on a sound business footing.  Very few 18 year olds, no matter their training, have the combined maturity, knowledge, and general wherewithal to do this successfully.  Especially if they're also trying to attend a demanding college program, like pharmacy.  Unless you're extremely careful, and very dedicated -- something is going to suffer.  Almost certainly your pocketbook and bank accounts will...


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## Brad Dunne (May 3, 2008)

This gentleman's GM is Kung Fu, not TKD. We're not talking about a TKD female GM................... 

"Grandmaster Myong Hui Munoz. At 76 years old, Munoz, 8th Dan black belt, is one of the highest-ranking women in the world". 
When I see the term GM and Dan ranking, as opposed to "Sash", I read it as TKD. Why would a Kung Fu sifu/master or whatever term is correct, invite a bonifide TKD GM to a 2nd Dan testing, if he/she was not ranked in TKD. To me it makes no sense to shell out the dough to bring someone of high stature in TKD in, if your not directly affiliated with TKD. Just MHO....


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## IcemanSK (May 3, 2008)

Brad Dunne said:


> This gentleman's GM is Kung Fu, not TKD. We're not talking about a TKD female GM...................
> 
> "Grandmaster Myong Hui Munoz. At 76 years old, Munoz, 8th Dan black belt, is one of the highest-ranking women in the world".
> When I see the term GM and Dan ranking, as opposed to "Sash", I read it as TKD. Why would a Kung Fu sifu/master or whatever term is correct, invite a bonifide TKD GM to a 2nd Dan testing, if he/she was not ranked in TKD. To me it makes no sense to shell out the dough to bring someone of high stature in TKD in, if your not directly affiliated with TKD. Just MHO....


 
I'm going by the fact that rchurch said she was his KF GM in an eariler post. Your question of "why invite GM Park to a test" is still valid, Brad. It makes no sense. Why GM Park?

Furthermore, if she charged each BB candidate either $4K or $7K (depending on rank of candidate) she racked in at least $20K & as much as $26K (if I read it right). Not even GM Park charges that much for a test! Terry & Miles would gladly do a legit belt test for 5 students for half that, I'm sure.


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## terryl965 (May 3, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I'm going by the fact that rchurch said she was his KF GM in an eariler post. Your question of "why invite GM Park to a test" is still valid, Brad. It makes no sense. Why GM Park?
> 
> Furthermore, if she charged each BB candidate either $4K or $7K (depending on rank of candidate) she racked in at least $20K & as much as $26K (if I read it right). Not even GM Park charges that much for a test! Terry & Miles would gladly do a legit belt test for 5 students for half that, I'm sure.


 
**** if I could get half try a fraction for the same thing.


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## Brad Dunne (May 3, 2008)

"TKD was something the GM came up with strictly as a business decision. He did some TKD training for a few years along with the kung fu, and studied TKD extensively for over a year to get his 1st Dan. Probably averaged 6 or 7 hours per day, 3 - 6 days a week study. He is very serious about his martial arts. I do have to say she (the GM) is a good, knowlegable instructor and appreciate what she has taught him in both TKD and kung fu".

IcemanSK prompted my search of this thread, for I knew I read something about the GM and TKD. So IcemanSK gets a gold star for this....:cheers:

Now based upon the above info, it looks as if the GM has some sort of tie in to TKD. As for your son and his training in TKD, we can assume that he met the requirements of the curriculum assigned by the GM. Since each school/instructor has their own agenda, for what they expect and teach, it can explain the promotion to 2nd Dan. It's a shame, that he was kind of forced to except the additional labor of TKD training, when it looks like he really has no specific interest in it, other than bringing in students. It really cheapens the value of that 2nd Dan ranking IMO.


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## tshadowchaser (May 5, 2008)

I think we all wish you the best of luck making a smooth transition.

Please keep us informed once in a while how things are going


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## GlassJaw (Jun 2, 2008)

A long time ago, Miles commented to me 





> The souvenir coin is pretty unique.


Yeah, in the martial arts world, anyway.

The idea actually comes from a custom practiced amongst some military servicepersons. Whereas the veterans of some units go out and get matching tattoos, others have been known to commemorate their bond by commissioning "challenge coins" (typically cast of bronze or pewter) showing their unit designation.  

Each member carries his or her coin (usually roughly silver-dollar sized and engraved with the owner's name) throughout civilian life.  Whenever two or more of them get back together, someone "challenges" by pulling out their coin.  Then it's a race amongst the others to follow suit. . .with the loser having to buy the drinks.

While I know the tradition _exists_ in military culture, I have no clue whether it is actually _common_ there.  In mil surplus & memorabilia catalogs, I have seen rather generic service-branch-identified challenge coins for sale, but I don't know if that means that the concept is widespread or just that some manufacturer wants it to be.

What I do know is that our association adopted the custom a great many years ago and gives a challenge coin to everyone who enters our blackbelt ranks.  I guess the coin in the pocket serves as a more regular personal reminder than the certificate alone (which is probably often either tucked away in a binder or lying in a dresser drawer waiting indefinitely for the owner to prepare a place for it on the wall ["No really!  One day I'm actually gonna get around to building a display case for all of these trophies and certificates."]) and is a lot more enduring than a wallet card.  In our association, the challenge is nominally considered to be for coffee rather than "drinks".



> Are you by any chance part of the American Chung Do Kwan org under Master Henkel?


Yes, ACDKL.


Dan (tying up loose threads and unanswered mail)


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## jim777 (Jun 2, 2008)

GlassJaw said:


> A long time ago, Miles commented to me Yeah, in the martial arts world, anyway.
> 
> The idea actually comes from a custom practiced amongst some military servicepersons. Whereas the veterans of some units go out and get matching tattoos, others have been known to commemorate their bond by commissioning "challenge coins" (typically cast of bronze or pewter) showing their unit designation.
> 
> Each member carries his or her coin (usually roughly silver-dollar sized and engraved with the owner's name) throughout civilian life. Whenever two or more of them get back together, someone "challenges" by pulling out their coin. Then it's a race amongst the others to follow suit. . .with the loser having to buy the drinks.


 
That is pretty damned cool right there


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## GabeMunoz (Oct 4, 2010)

ENOUGH !!!!!

Let me clarify a couple of things here.

First of all when we were made aware of these postings RCHURCH assured us he would have them deleted or would at least post a retraction. We left it in his hands and were surprised to find them still here. So much for his assurances.

Secondly, it is NOBODYS business how and what Grandmaster Myong Hui charges for her classes, assistance and counseling. (By the way it is Grandmaster not GM, a little respect please). As usual there is a lot of misinformation in these posts which have led to slanderous or unflattering conclusions. The infamous $11,000 fee was not only for the belt test but it included helping out one her student establish a new school. In fact if you figure out Grandmaster Myong Hui taught 2-3 classes for 5 nights a week for nearly two years I would say that is WAY TOO CHEAP!  That works out to about $10 buck a class. Ooooh she must be up to something! Yes Grandmaster was up to HELPING her student out as she always has.

Lastly, Grandmaster Myong Hui has dedicated her life to teaching the martial arts. She has studied martial arts since she was a child and she is a certified 8th Dan black belt by the Kukiwon Federation. Grandmaster has always shied away from any publicity, recognition or acknowledgement in fact she has always deflected accomplishments and recognition toward her students. We have no intention of replying further to these posts but felt compelled to clarify past postings or for that matter future posting at this site. I can see how mis-quotes can turn quickly into just plain out and out gossip. I am requesting for you to PLEASE not post a reply to this and just let this posting die! 

Thank You
Gabe Munoz

P.S.
By the way Grandmaster Myong Hui is my wife and as usual she did not want me to reply to these posts so I have done so without her approval, but when I did a goggle search and this popped up, I had to do something.


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## troubleenuf (Oct 4, 2010)

So... the posting has been dormant since 2008 and you felt it necessary to bring something back up that you didnt want brought up in the first place?!!!


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 4, 2010)

*Admin Notice.

As this was flagged to my attention I will address it.

MartialTalk has not been in the habit of deleting inconvenient posts due to poster's changing their mind. In fact, we rarely delete any content other than blatant spam. We welcome opposing views to rebut in a professional manner anything they deem necessary, within the limits of our posted rules.  While I do not recall receiving any requests concerning this topic, the response for a deletion would have been "No.".  

Topic Locked.*


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