# Credentialing



## skribs (Jun 6, 2018)

The subject of credentialing (being able to prove you are capable of teaching what you say you are) has come up in several threads recently, such as:

Ranks are meaningless
I used to think ranks are meaningless, but now I need one for bureaucratic reasons and I'm lower rank than I need
My master in (Art 2) promoted me in (Art 1)
My art doesn't have ranks and I need a certificate in order to teach a class at a particular location
Now, I don't want to have the discussion about how having a rank system in your art is meaningless/meaningful.  I'm more curious about how a prospective student - especially an uninitiated student - would be able to assess the level of mastery an instructor has based on their credentials.

For example, a black belt in Taekwondo is usually a 3-5 year process.  It was 23 months for myself, but I was also on a special apprenticeship and spent 20+ hours a week at the dojang for those last 11 months, and I had around 4 years of training as a kid.  So really, even though it took me 23 months to go white to black at my current school, it was about 6 years of training total, and if you assume 150 hours as a year's worth of training (3 classes a week for 50 weeks), I did the equivalent of probably 6 years worth of training during those 11 months.

To be more specific, it usually takes a minimum of 2.5-3 years, and most people take around 4-5 years to get their black belt (not including McDojos).

Now compare that to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.  According to a brief internet search, it's a minimum of 5.5 years to get your black belt in BJJ, and usually around 10 years.

Going back to Taekwondo, to go up a dan grade, you must do as many years as your current grade.  So a 1st Dan takes a minimum of 1 year to get 2nd Dan, a 2nd Dan two years to get 3rd dan, etc.  BJJ, on the other hand, it's the amount of years is equal to the rank you're going for (i.e. 2 years to get 2nd Dan, 3 years to get 3rd Dan).

So a person who has been training Taekwondo for 15 years may be a 4th or 5th degree black belt, but someone who has been training BJJ for 15 years may only be a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt.

Where I see this becoming an issue is if I'm a new student who knows nothing about martial arts, and I see that there's a Taekwondo School with a 5th degree instructor and a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school with a 2nd degree instructor, which school do I think is more qualified to teach martial arts?  Even though they may have around the same amount of training and (all other factors being equal) are likely just as competent as each other, the layman will see a big difference in training under a 5th degree than a 2nd degree.

To expand on this, *let's take an art that doesn't have belt ranks or even certificates*.  How do you advertise your proficiency as a martial artist or instructor to prospective students?  How can they verify your claims?

I'm just curious how arts that have a higher standard for black belt or who don't have ranks at all justify their *seeming *lack of credentials to the general public when advertising for classes.

_Please note that I'm not saying that these instructors are not qualified to teach.  I'm talking about 3 martial artists who all have similar skill levels in their respective arts, but due to the way the art is set up, their ranks are different._


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## oldwarrior (Jun 6, 2018)

That is a good one 

To instruct in any of the arts without ranking I would think that they should have some form of paperwork (scroll or licence) from the school ... 

As for checking that might prove to be a bit more difficult. Some schools can be very very secretive over who has what and where ...however if it is a fairly well known art then the lineage should be checkable up to a point and with the modern world fakes are not that long in being outed. 

I don't know about other arts but in my arts my ranks are recorded and numbered ...I don't know about others but I do not hold and have never sought to teach so I do not hold a licence


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## Andrew Green (Jun 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> To expand on this, *let's take an art that doesn't have belt ranks or even certificates*.  How do you advertise your proficiency as a martial artist or instructor to prospective students?  How can they verify your claims?



This is all a artificial problem.  The only reason people care about ranks is that they have been told to care about ranks.  Would you have the same sorts of issues in a dance school?  A Yoga studio? A crossfire gym? Do you know your doctors educational history and GPA?  How about your lawyers?  When you go to a restaurant do you first ask where the chef studied culinary arts and to what level?  

If you are advertising based on your credentials you are missing the mark completely.  Advertising is about the person doing you are advertising too, not the person doing the advertising.  People will care about what you can do for them more then how many stripes you have on your belt.


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## jobo (Jun 6, 2018)

the short answer is you can't tell and nor past a certain point does the ability of the instructor matter as long as he has mastery of the techniques he is teaching,
.if some place you want to teach at requires a black belt, go and buy a blackbelt, easy, then you can say you have one,


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## skribs (Jun 6, 2018)

Andrew Green said:


> This is all a artificial problem.  The only reason people care about ranks is that they have been told to care about ranks.  Would you have the same sorts of issues in a dance school?  A Yoga studio? A crossfire gym? Do you know your doctors educational history and GPA?  How about your lawyers?  When you go to a restaurant do you first ask where the chef studied culinary arts and to what level?
> 
> If you are advertising based on your credentials you are missing the mark completely.  Advertising is about the person doing you are advertising too, not the person doing the advertising.  People will care about what you can do for them more then how many stripes you have on your belt.



Let's take each of those:

Dance school - I would want to know that my dance instructor didn't just find a few videos on youtube and open his own school
Yoga studio - I would want to know my Yogi didn't just take a few Yoga classes and look up a bunch of poses on Wikipedia
Crossfire gym - what even is that?
Doctor's educational history and GPA - GPA no, but I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion.  Education history yes.  Their degree is usually in their name (i.e. Jason Smith, M.D.)
Lawyers - Lawyers usually advertise where they got their law degree, especially if it's from a fancy school like Yale or Harvard.  
Restaurant - I'll look at reviews of the food or listen to people say the place is good.  I don't normally know the chef, but the brand.  Now, if I was taking culinary classes, I'd want to know some credentials.  Maybe not where they went to school, but at the very least what makes them qualified to teach the class.
People care what you can do for them.  Someone with a lot more experience and wisdom in the art can do a lot more for you than someone without that experience.  Most of the students at my school like me, and I can teach them most of what they need to know, but there is a clear gap in skill and in teaching ability between me and my Master, and the vast majority of that is experience.

I'm not specifically talking about ranks.  I'm talking about how do you advertise that your instructors have an amount of experience?


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## JR 137 (Jun 6, 2018)

This is a great conversation, but in the real world it’s irrelevant to 99% of the prospective students IMO.  Where do most people who train go?  To the closest and most convenient school most often.  Convenient meaning fitting their schedule.  And price has a lot to do with it too.  As long as the teacher is a “nice guy/lady” and aligns with what personality they’re drawn to, it’s a done deal.

A big part is also word of mouth...
“I was thinking about me and my kid starting karate.”
“My kids go to X and love it.  The teachers are so good with them.  The price is a little higher, but it’s worth it.  It’s the best place in the area.” (Even though that’s the only place they looked into, and it’s the best because the person who referred them thought it was)


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## Danny T (Jun 6, 2018)

How do you go about finding out about a carpenter or a mason? Due diligence.
How do you go about finding out about a babysitter or a house sitter? Due diligence.
How do you go about finding out about an HAVC technician? Due diligence.
How do you go about finding out about a vehicle repair technician? Due diligence.
How do you go about finding out about...Whatever? Due diligence.
Buyer beware...It is incumbent on the buyer to use due diligence to find out about a martial arts instructor/school just as you would with most anything else you spend your money on.


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## JR 137 (Jun 6, 2018)

As far as “credentials”...

Credentials are only as good as the credentialing body/person.  My teacher was promoted to 7th dan by Tadashi Nakamura of former Kyokushin fame.  Nakamura was one of Mas Oyama’s top students, promoted to 7th dan at a younger than normal age by Oyama, completed the 100 man kumite, fought in Thailand, etc., and sent to the US to start Kyokushin here.  Without seeing him nor knowing anything else, those credentials are pretty hard to discount.

There’s a local guy here running a Judo club.  He was a silver medalist in the Barcelona Olympics, competed in 2 other Olympics, and has competed in and won numerous prestigious international tournaments.  He’s coached several Olympic teams and international competitors.  Those are solid credentials.

There’s a local sensei who recently closed her dojo for health reasons.  She was promoted to 1st dan in the 80s by a very well known and respected karate teacher.  Her 2nd-4th dan promotions came from a mail order promotion group.  Her 5th-8th dan promotions came from her own school.  I’m still trying to figure that one out.  So she’s an 8th dan, and my teacher’s a 7th dan, so she’s a step better.  Sure.  And I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I’m selling.  And n all honestly she’s a good teacher.  Nothing to brag about, but I’ve seen far worse.  Certainly not what my expectations of an 8th dan teacher should be.  Maybe what I expect from a 4th-5th dan (if that’s even really quantifiable).  I say that because I would be suspicious if she claimed those ranks;above that, and I’d look into it like I did.

The head of my former organization was recently promoted to 9th dan.  He was promoted by a panel of independent karate teachers.  I posted here about this panel and their methods a while back.  Pretty much everyone who replied said the panel wasn’t very credible, they were a bunch of people who just got together to promote each other, etc.  That was counter to everything I stated they did, and nothing was going to change their minds.  Then I mentioned Chuck Merriman is an advisor to their panel, and everyone’s opinion changed instantly.  A credential is only as good as the credentialing board.  Have a guy like Chuck Merriman, and it’s easily accepted by anyone who’s familiar with the name.  Don’t have someone like that, and it’s usually suspect.


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## skribs (Jun 6, 2018)

Danny T said:


> How do you go about finding out about a carpenter or a mason? Due diligence.
> How do you go about finding out about a babysitter or a house sitter? Due diligence.
> How do you go about finding out about an HAVC technician? Due diligence.
> How do you go about finding out about a vehicle repair technician? Due diligence.
> ...



And how does a carpenter or mason get hired for contracts?  Due diligence.

It's a 2-way street, and you can only control what is going in your direction.

ETA:  Seeing someone put forth the effort into their advertising helps me as a potential customer.  I'm not talking about a super flashy website or a ton of videos on YouTube.  I'm talking if I go to your website, facebook, or go into your office and get a flier, that I will have enough information to make an informed decision.

So if I go to a Taekwondo school and all I get is "Master Smith" with no rank and no idea what organization he's ranked in, that's a lot different than "Master Jones, ranked 6th degree in ATA and 5th degree in KKW."  Maybe they're both the same rank, I don't know, but just seeing that he is credentialed by an association will help.

That's the reason I started this thread.  If I see "Taekwondo under Master Smith, 6th degree in ITF", "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu under Master Johnson, 3rd degree in IBJJF" and "Kung Fu under Master Jones", even if all 3 have similar levels of experience, which school am I going to check out first?  

If I've checked out the first school and I like it, then I may not bother to check the others out.  I've already started learning TKD, why bother switching to BJJ, especially if the guy is only a 3rd degree?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> And how does a carpenter or mason get hired for contracts?  Due diligence.
> 
> It's a 2-way street, and you can only control what is going in your direction.
> 
> ...


But that's the thing, most novices to MA aren't actually looking at the degree or accreditation. They see the 3 schools, they may glance at "okay, 6th degree...3rd degree...Kung Fu master...", and not look any more than that. More often than not, they will then say "oh that style looks/sounds cool/legit, I'll check them out", or "they're schedule is 7-830 each night, that works better for me than the 6-7 3 times a week", or "They cost $95, that school costs $125". Those are generally on people's minds before the question of rank. Then when they go to the place, their focus is on how friendly and/or impressive the person seems, and how much they enjoy the first class.

And for the people who do focus on rank, they're likely also the ones who will go online looking up "what should I watch out for", and hear all the things about high level BBs being frauds, and running mcdojos, and who knows what they will choose then.

So no, credentialing is not nearly as important as someone might think.

As an answer, since that was on a tangent and didn't really address the OP: Something I've seen is people putting down "trained 25 years in X". To me that looks less impressive, since I can claim "trained 20 years in martial arts", and be entirely truthful, but that's still misleading (7 of those were before I was 10, some of the years I did not train all that much, some of the years I was on overdrive).


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## oldwarrior (Jun 6, 2018)

All very interesting answers an comments. 

The bit about how do you advertise experience that I do not think you can do ...that really has to come by word of mouth.

Is or are there no ad folks on this forum and ask them how they'd put together a flyer etc then see how it stacks up to what the MA on here would think 

or maybe OP do a flyer or a few and open that up to discussion


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## Danny T (Jun 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> And how does a carpenter or mason get hired for contracts?  Due diligence.
> 
> It's a 2-way street, and you can only control what is going in your direction.
> 
> ...


The thing my advertising should to is to pique your interest in contacting us. I want you to be able to speak with you about your needs, goals, aspirations. I want to develop a rapport with you and create value for you. I have found very few people who ask about or are even concerned about my rank or even what I teach.
Number 1 question...How much does it cost? And usually by the time they sign up that isn't the number 1 concern at all.
Most don't have enough knowledge to know what to ask so what do they know...they know it is going to cost something and that is what they ask.

I want to create a sense of a relationship that the potential student wants to be in and seldom has rank ever been discussed or questioned.


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## marques (Jun 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> Where I see this becoming an issue is if I'm a new student who knows nothing about martial arts, and I see that there's a Taekwondo School with a 5th degree instructor and a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school with a 2nd degree instructor, which school do I think is more qualified to teach martial arts?


Easy. Each one is the most qualified in his field.


skribs said:


> To expand on this, *let's take an art that doesn't have belt ranks or even certificates*.  How do you advertise your proficiency as a martial artist or instructor to prospective students?  How can they verify your claims?


Usually people say how many years’ experience or relevant instructors/organisations. They can also show something on YouTube (the only I care). When I was instructor, it was quite easy because people knew me.


skribs said:


> I'm just curious how arts that have a higher standard for black belt or who don't have ranks at all justify their *seeming *lack of credentials to the general public when advertising for classes.


It is relative. At some point, being brown belt in BJJ was great because they were few (and still are relatively to other popular arts). If one day there are many black belts (as many as students that completed 3 years training), then black belt becomes just a belt. And we will be looking for how many dan.

Again, if no belts, I have seen instructors claiming extensive experience (training, teaching, military...) or having the ‘best’ masters or being part of ‘prestigious’ organisations.


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## skribs (Jun 6, 2018)

marques said:


> It is relative. At some point, being brown belt in BJJ was great because they were few (and still are relatively to other popular arts). If one day there are many black belts (as many as students that completed 3 years training), then black belt becomes just a belt. And we will be looking for how many dan.



Yeah, when I was a kid, we had only a handful of black belts at my school.  As far as I'm aware, there was the Master and his wife, and one guy got his black belt while I was there.  I took classes at a satellite school under the wife, so I don't know if the master had more black belts.

At the school I'm at now, I've seen at least three people get their 3rd degree black belt.  Not including the Master and his family, we have somewhere around 25-30 active black belts, half of which are 2nd degree black belts, and are going to get another 10-12 later this week at our semi-annual black belt testing.

When I was a kid, "black belt" was the top.  Now I see a huge difference between 1st and 2nd degree, 2nd and 3rd degree, etc.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> being able to prove you are capable of teaching what you say you are


Depends on who is asking and how much accurate knowledge they already have about Martial Arts.


skribs said:


> Let's take each of those:
> 
> Dance school - I would want to know that my dance instructor didn't just find a few videos on youtube and open his own school
> Yoga studio - I would want to know my Yogi didn't just take a few Yoga classes and look up a bunch of poses on Wikipedia
> ...


Proficient in Martial Arts Application - Spar / fight and show that you are legit.  The only problem with this is that most people don't care about being able to fight using a Martial Arts Fighting System.  Especially parents with young children.

I don't have a certificate as an Instructor.  For me my advance to that position was totally based on my ability and understanding of Martial Arts application.   For anyone who has doubts of my abilities, I can not only back that up, but I have also trained others to be good with the Martial Arts Skills sets that were being trained in the school.   That's all of the credentials most people who are interested in using martial arts as a self-defense care about.   

If I were to open a school up today, it would be what I do, what I teach, my experience in teaching, and a few of my sparring and forms videos.  I may even give a short lesson to give people an idea of my teaching style and how I teach.  People will either feel good about it and want to join or they will feel bad about it and leave   For me it's less about proving my credentials and more about showing what I have to offer vs what another school or instructor has to offer.

I have never had anyone doubt my ability or call me a fake so I must be doing something right in the way that I teach others.  From there it's just word of mouth.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> I'm not specifically talking about ranks.  I'm talking about how do you advertise that your instructors have an amount of experience?



I have never seen a ad from any of those that promoted their lineage in the way some martial artists like.  Yes, you can go in and ask if you want, but in advertising? Never.

And crossfire is crossfit after auto correct gets a hold of it...


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## Andrew Green (Jun 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> If I've checked out the first school and I like it, then I may not bother to check the others out.  I've already started learning TKD, why bother switching to BJJ, especially if the guy is only a 3rd degree?



They are completely separate sports, why would a rank to compassion even come in to play?

I'd not look at whether the local hockey coach was a level 3 coach vs the local basketball coach being a level 2 coach.  I'd decide if I want to play hockey or basketball and go with that.

Your potential students don't care about rank or understand what it means until you tell them to care.


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## skribs (Jun 6, 2018)

Andrew Green said:


> They are completely separate sports, why would a rank to compassion even come in to play?
> 
> I'd not look at whether the local hockey coach was a level 3 coach vs the local basketball coach being a level 2 coach.  I'd decide if I want to play hockey or basketball and go with that.
> 
> Your potential students don't care about rank or understand what it means until you tell them to care.



Because people know the difference between basketball and hockey.  To the layman they're all "karate".


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## oldwarrior (Jun 7, 2018)

skribs said:


> Because people know the difference between basketball and hockey.  To the layman they're all "karate".



That is something that is very true ...we all can differentiate but to the layman Karate is the one all know as it was probably the first one to be promoted and advertised in the "west" 

I said before that it would be interesting in getting and advertising pros opinion on this as it may differ from what those who are already students of the arts

I have no teaching quals ...i don't really seek to teach (although I have to a few private friends and I did do self defense classes to some women when I was pushed to it didn't last as well they were looking for the secrets skills to defeat anything ...that another story though lol) as my ranks are not high enough and I have not graded in years as that is not what interests me now ...but that said if I did decide to teach then I would be looking at doing targeted marketing doing market research and the basic business start up things. Even to the etent of looking at the area and surrounding areas are there any special conditions ie is there a high violence rate and crime rate and who is it predominantly against and there by possibly gearing any advertising to that area ...Personally I would not emphasize my rankings but in the dojo or hall if it were mine they would be there to view (not as a ego boost) but just to show that I do have them (that is assuming that the potential students can read Japanese lol) 

If I was teaching a pure art to people then I would personally mention the lineage but more than likely not on any flyers they have to be what grabs the initial interest. I also try an get in there that there will be a demo for those to come and see and to make sure that it not all dan ranks that are taking part as that to me can give a false sense to any beginner I like another post said would offer a short intro class to not only give students a taste but also to get the feel of the class (again that class I would make sure that it did have different grades within it so not are all "experts" (loose term) ...I would at some point go full on and let the students see the art at full speed and force so they could then judge better and that would not be at a demo but at a class (to me a demo is like a flyer has to be eye catching to spur interest and as those that have turned up are interested it has to be fueled so it gotta be flashy not the mundane or the over technical)  After the first short class I would look for feedback from the group 

advertising to me has to be eye catching and draw the eye not contain to much detail but enough to spark the initial contact ...but never forget the free advertising that is word of mouth and if at a dojo or a hall a simple sign outside can do wonders 

All just my random thoughts though


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## pdg (Jun 7, 2018)

I don't like the idea of a demo for potential students - I personally feel it's not the right introduction.

At a public event (village fayre or the like) it's a bit different, but in class it's more hassle than it's ever worth.

You'd find yourself either doing a demo most weeks for people you never see again, or losing loads of interest because "oh yeah, we've got a demo scheduled in 5 weeks, come along" will just make people go down the road where they can start in two days.

Then there's the misleading aspect of it - at what point do you tell them it might take years before they can do the same?

Same thing with a short intro session, especially if it's one on one. Unless that's how you run things normally of course.

At the school I attend, any new students just join in a regular class - first two are free. Generally a senior student will join them after the warmup, but even that's not unusual and reserved for introduction lessons - it's ongoing like that.


As for the "it's all karate to the layman" - I think that's at least 20 years out of date for the majority, and even fewer who go as far as to enquire are that uninformed.

This is based on my own experience - I do a fair amount of work quote visits after class, so I turn up in my dobok (or at least dobok trousers and club shirt) and I've never had anyone misidentify and ask "is it karate?", at 'worst' they ask what I do.

White trousers they generally identify TKD quite reliably, black trousers they tend to ask, occasionally going (correctly) for kickboxing.

That can't be down to the club exposure either, because they also usually ask "do you do that locally?" and there are quite a variety of available arts in the area.


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## drop bear (Jun 7, 2018)

Ours is easy. I just look them up on fight matrix.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 7, 2018)

Ranks and  credentials are are nice recognition to receive from your group to acknowledge your dedication and hard work. 
It is not a good way to choose a school or instructor. People who lack skill tend to push their rank out front and center to hide their shortcomings. If the person has skills.....well... everyone knows it, they don't need to advertise their 15th degree grand poobah rank.


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## oldwarrior (Jun 7, 2018)

Any rank or grade is only as good as the body awarding it 

It has been known for people to go online and ummm order a scroll all made out in proper writing etc ...so yes anyone pushing the rank at the fore front is on an ego trip ...is hiding something or has maybe not actually got it in the first place ... 

It may be not that easy for a newcomer to tell that the person that teaching not quite the real deal as it were ...yes folks that do study will tell but newcomers may not ...

As for grading etc possibly a way for a newcomer to check that out if he/she so wishes is to find out who actually awards the grades ...not the kyu grades but the Dan ranks as that may give some insight 

Just as a random thought or two the Akikai scroll you get in a dan rank has a watermark on the back that I don't think has been faked yet but I could be wrong (it also numbered to lol) also it should be noted that it not just the Martial Arts of Japan that use rankings lol so does the tea ceremony and others lol ...so an instructor may be a shichidan or hachidan but it might be in flower arranging lol...sorry just my humour


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 7, 2018)

i think this is a non issue.  credentials and rank are only important because people make it so.
so far the argument has been...

_you need it for marketing._    well if that is how and where you focus your marketing, then you need to hire a marketing director.  rank doesnt make sales.  people make sales.
_how is someone supposed to judge your quality?  _reputation for starters.  quality and skills speak for themselves.  people do not sign a life time contract. they will go where they feel their needs are being met.
_new people will not know good from bad.  _maybe not at first.  but given a short amount of time and exposure they *will know*.  there is nothing wrong with signing up at a mcdojo.  the people who want more will move on ...AND  the people who like it stay for what ever their reasons are, they stay.  DO NOT ASSUME THEY DONT ANY KNOW BETTER.   they do.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 7, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> _new people will not know good from bad.  _maybe not at first.  but given a short amount of time and exposure they *will know*.  there is nothing wrong with signing up at a mcdojo.  the people who want more will move on ...AND  the people who like it stay for what ever their reasons are, they stay.  DO NOT ASSUME THEY DONT ANY KNOW BETTER.   they do.



Most of the time. Generally people can figure out if what they're getting will "turn them into an unstoppable fighting machine" (a phrase I heard on here a while back), or if it won't. And they may continue anyway because they like the atmosphere, it gets them in shape, they enjoy it, etc. and don't care about fighting. BUT some people actually do believe what their learning will work, and that is why they're doing it, even if that's not the case. I wouldn't assume that, since my assumption is that is in the minority, but it does happen.


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## skribs (Jun 7, 2018)

pdg said:


> As for the "it's all karate to the layman" - I think that's at least 20 years out of date for the majority, and even fewer who go as far as to enquire are that uninformed.



Half of my Taekwondo students come in and tell me they're excited because it's karate class today.

It's like if was to go "Xerox something" on a Ricoh copier.


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## pdg (Jun 7, 2018)

skribs said:


> Half of my Taekwondo students come in and tell me they're excited because it's karate class today.
> 
> It's like if was to go "Xerox something" on a Ricoh copier.



Nobody Xeroxes anything here, ever. I've only heard the term used on imported TV. We photocopy stuff 

Maybe we just didn't comply with the same level of marketing?

I would say it's maybe "it's all taekwon-do" here instead, but surely that would encompass the black suit too?


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 7, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Most of the time. Generally people can figure out if what they're getting will "turn them into an unstoppable fighting machine" (a phrase I heard on here a while back), or if it won't. And they may continue anyway because they like the atmosphere, it gets them in shape, they enjoy it, etc. and don't care about fighting. BUT some people actually do believe what their learning will work, and that is why they're doing it, even if that's not the case. I wouldn't assume that, since my assumption is that is in the minority, but it does happen.



i think my point is mostly overlooked.  i consistently hear how beginners cant, but need to have the ability to differentiate between a mcdojo and a "real" dojo.  this is based on an incorrect presupposition that the student doesnt want a mcdojo.  i can tell you with out a doubt this is incorrect. 
yes some students may sign up at a dojo that is sub par but it wouldnt take long to figure out that the art is not meeting their needs. these students will move on.  it could take a day or it could take years.  when they leave to move on is up to their own personal journey.  if John Doe signs up at Bobs discount karate- fu jitsu school, he may be fully aware that there is a hard core MMA, Gracie Jiujitsu school right across the street but somewhere in his psyche he is not ready for that kind of training yet.  maybe he never will be.

threads keep coming up about ranks and credentials and mcdojo's  the focus is always on the teacher and the dojo, forgetting the primary factor is the student.  somehow the assumption is made that the student is a constant in the equation.  in sales there is a saying "_there is a rear-end  for every seat"_. 
the little dirty secret in martial arts is that.......*.most people do not want to pay the price for the results they are looking for.  *instead they settle for something they can cope with, something they can convince themselves with (and those around them)  that they are on the path to the results they want.  it is self delusion, and from a certain psychological perspective its not always a bad thing.

we need to stop assuming people are idiot dolts and dont know any better.   the truth is, in the end people end up right where they want to be.


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## Buka (Jun 7, 2018)

Credentialing. Kind of apt word for the bs associated with Martial Arts.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 7, 2018)

In the Hapkido I studied in Korea, one was supposed to be a 3rd Dan to teach in a school under the owner/master.  One was supposed to be a 4th Dan to have one's own school.  Everyone knew that rank in Hapkido was earned.  So having those ranks meant you could do those things.  Certification?  Never heard of it.  I also never met a bad teacher.  I think that one may be a western creation, and it may have come from legal seminars.  

It also wasn't done in the 60s to my knowledge.  I never heard anyone question Mr. Rhee's qualifications to teach.  You only had to see a few moves of his and you were convinced.  He had the demeanor to teach effectively as well.  

I guess those things don't count so much these days.


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## skribs (Jun 7, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> In the Hapkido I studied in Korea, one was supposed to be a 3rd Dan to teach in a school under the owner/master.  One was supposed to be a 4th Dan to have one's own school.  Everyone knew that rank in Hapkido was earned.  So having those ranks meant you could do those things.  Certification?  Never heard of it.  I also never met a bad teacher.  I think that one may be a western creation, and it may have come from legal seminars.
> 
> It also wasn't done in the 60s to my knowledge.  I never heard anyone question Mr. Rhee's qualifications to teach.  You only had to see a few moves of his and you were convinced.  He had the demeanor to teach effectively as well.
> 
> I guess those things don't count so much these days.



Your 3rd Dan is the certification, or 4th Dan.

We actually get a certificate at my school for each art we test in.  I have certificates stating  I am 4th Keub in Hapkido (orange belt) and 2nd Degree in Taekwondo (really 2nd Dan, 3rd Gup, but I'm pretty sure that the Dan rank is all another school will care about).  

So if you have anything proving you are a 3rd degree, that is your certification in the art.

Although what I mean specifically about certifications for various locations is something like a school might require a certificate to prove you have the credentials you say you have if you want to open up a Hapkido class as an elective at the school.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 7, 2018)

skribs said:


> Your 3rd Dan is the certification, or 4th Dan.
> 
> We actually get a certificate at my school for each art we test in.  I have certificates stating  I am 4th Keub in Hapkido (orange belt) and 2nd Degree in Taekwondo (really 2nd Dan, 3rd Gup, but I'm pretty sure that the Dan rank is all another school will care about).
> 
> ...



Then I have totally misunderstood what you, and some others for that matter, meant by credentialing.  I thought you meant something on the order of a separate training course of some sort, or purported set of training, that would then be used as proof of qualification to teach.  I envisioned people wanting to use it when not yet belted in a school, or low belted and perhaps start a school.   Apparently not what you really meant.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 8, 2018)

At the end of the day, a certificate or qualification can only tell you so much about a person's credibility to teach. Even in sports where all coaches are required to have the same base certification, you get a huge variety in quality of teaching, as well as knowledge on the subject. I have seen people with the exact same qualifications as myself who were completely clueless about what they were doing. That's why when I am looking for a sports coach of any kind, I look at 2 things: How the coach conducts themselves during training, and how successful their students are in competition. How do you market it to the general public? Fairly easily if you have successful competitors, however if you either don't compete or have a bad record, it's very hard.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 8, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> That is something that is very true ...we all can differentiate but to the layman Karate is the one all know as it was probably the first one to be promoted and advertised in the "west"
> 
> I said before that it would be interesting in getting and advertising pros opinion on this as it may differ from what those who are already students of the arts



If you are advertising to people that don't even know the difference between the different types of martial arts, why would it make any sense to advertise ranks at all?  Those are even more confusing.

Look at what any bigger school is doing, chances are they probably aren't including anything about ranks at all in their ads.  Ads are about benefits to the prospect, not bragging about the accomplishments of the business owner.  

If you are going to advertise accomplishments they should be the accomplishments of the people taking your program, not the person that created it.  Before and after shots of people making big fitness gains.  Testimonials of parents who's kids saw big gains in confidence and are no longer getting bullied.  

Ranks are just imaginary points we collect within our own bubbles.  They are not the accomplishments people care about when signing up


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## dvcochran (Jun 13, 2018)

Andrew Green said:


> This is all a artificial problem.  The only reason people care about ranks is that they have been told to care about ranks.  Would you have the same sorts of issues in a dance school?  A Yoga studio? A crossfire gym? Do you know your doctors educational history and GPA?  How about your lawyers?  When you go to a restaurant do you first ask where the chef studied culinary arts and to what level?
> 
> If you are advertising based on your credentials you are missing the mark completely.  Advertising is about the person doing you are advertising too, not the person doing the advertising.  People will care about what you can do for them more then how many stripes you have on your belt.


Your arguments are pretty broad. In the states at least, a medical doctor requires a bachelors degree, a minimum 3 years post graduate, and a minimum 2-3 years residency. So the certification is implied and competency hopefully secured through the process. If I go to McDonalds I do not give thought to the cook, the very name is a stretch there. If I go to a five star restaurant, I very much want to know about the chef. 
Word of mouth and years of service are a much stronger barometer for me concerning MA instructors, dance, Yoga, etc...


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 14, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> In the Hapkido I studied in Korea, one was supposed to be a 3rd Dan to teach in a school under the owner/master.  One was supposed to be a 4th Dan to have one's own school.  Everyone knew that rank in Hapkido was earned.  So having those ranks meant you could do those things.  Certification?  Never heard of it.  I also never met a bad teacher.  I think that one may be a western creation, and it may have come from legal seminars.
> 
> It also wasn't done in the 60s to my knowledge.  I never heard anyone question Mr. Rhee's qualifications to teach.  You only had to see a few moves of his and you were convinced.  He had the demeanor to teach effectively as well.
> 
> I guess those things don't count so much these days.



In Korea you need a 4th dan to open a Taekwondo school, almost exclusively through Kukkiwon. I know there are a few ITF dojang, but those guys may have Kukkiwon certificates, as well. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 14, 2018)

As far as marketing goes, I don’t think I even mention dan rank. I do mention my M. Ed on my website, though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dvcochran (Jun 14, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> In Korea you need a 4th dan to open a Taekwondo school, almost exclusively through Kukkiwon. I know there are a few ITF dojang, but those guys may have Kukkiwon certificates, as well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Somebody correct me if I am wrong.  I have never heard of an ITF school affiliated with the Kukkiwon.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 14, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Somebody correct me if I am wrong.  I have never heard of an ITF school affiliated with the Kukkiwon.



I’m sure the schools aren’t associated with Kukkiwon, but there are instructors out there with other certification outside of Kukkiwon. 


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## skribs (Jun 19, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Somebody correct me if I am wrong.  I have never heard of an ITF school affiliated with the Kukkiwon.



People can be certified by different organizations.  My Master and some of his older students are ranked in both KKW and ATA, and my Master has rank in multiple Hapkido organizations.

It's just like someone who might have a black belt in Karate, Taekwondo, and Judo.


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## dvcochran (Jun 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> People can be certified by different organizations.  My Master and some of his older students are ranked in both KKW and ATA, and my Master has rank in multiple Hapkido organizations.
> 
> It's just like someone who might have a black belt in Karate, Taekwondo, and Judo.


Did some research on the Kukkiwon website. Is appears you are right and the Kukkiwon is trying to envelope all styles of TKD under one unified body. A big vision I cannot see happening.


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## skribs (Jun 20, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Did some research on the Kukkiwon website. Is appears you are right and the Kukkiwon is trying to envelope all styles of TKD under one unified body. A big vision I cannot see happening.



That's not at all what I was saying.

I'm saying that my Master is certified in multiple organizations.  Not that the organizations are trying to merge.


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## wab25 (Jun 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> Although what I mean specifically about certifications for various locations is something like a school might require a certificate to prove you have the credentials you say you have if you want to open up a Hapkido class as an elective at the school.


Ok now I am a bit confused. Why are these certifications needed?

1. Are you looking to teach a class at an elementary school, high school, college or community center? In this case, you need to talk to organization. They may each have different requirements. You may need a formal teaching degree, a degree in physical education, First Aid and CPR training, some kind of background check... You would have to talk to each one, as each place may be different and require different things. You will have to satisfy the place you want to teach at, with their requirements. These are not standard... each place has their own set.

2. Are you trying to teach TKD at a Judo school? They might want more information on who you trained with and for how long. They may want certificates or letters of recommendation or a way to contact your TKD organization. They may also want some sort of First Aid and CPR training or even background check. Many will want you to provide your own insurance for your class. Again, you would need to check with the school you want to teach at, as they are all different, with different requirements.

3. Are you trying to start your own independent school? Here, you set your own requirements. You could even set your own rank, with certificates and all... its your school. But, like most are saying here, people will judge you by the product that you produce. Its not so much what you can do, but what you can teach your students to do.

The entity asking for the certification does make a difference in the answer. If you could clarify who needs to see such certification, you may get better answers.


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## skribs (Jun 20, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Ok now I am a bit confused. Why are these certifications needed?
> 
> 1. Are you looking to teach a class at an elementary school, high school, college or community center? In this case, you need to talk to organization. They may each have different requirements. You may need a formal teaching degree, a degree in physical education, First Aid and CPR training, some kind of background check... You would have to talk to each one, as each place may be different and require different things. You will have to satisfy the place you want to teach at, with their requirements. These are not standard... each place has their own set.
> 
> ...



I am not specifically doing anything right now.  Although I'm more looking at question 1 and question 3.

Either A) how do you prove to potential customers your training competency, or B) how do you satisfy certification requirements if you are going to open up a class at a gym or a school?  (i.e. a class from 5-6 PM at LA fitness or a physical education credit at a local community college).


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## wab25 (Jun 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> A) how do you prove to potential customers your training competency


Freddy Roach is a well known boxing coach. However, no boxer wants him to be their coach because of what Freddy can do in the ring now, or could do in the ring before. He is in great demand as a coach, because of what his fighters can do and have done in the ring. Your customers don't care what you can do. They care about what you can teach them to do. 



skribs said:


> B) how do you satisfy certification requirements if you are going to open up a class at a gym or a school? (i.e. a class from 5-6 PM at LA fitness or a physical education credit at a local community college).


Again, you will need to talk to each organization. They will all have different requirements. A good start, in my opinion, would be First Aid and CPR training, backing from a large MA association and letter of recommend from your instructor and or organization. An overview and plan for the class would be good as well. Then go talk to them, and find out their requirements. They may be able to waive some, to take alternate requirements, but each place will be different. If they have a web page, requirements might be found there. At the end of the day, you have to convince the organization of what you can do.


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## dvcochran (Jun 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> That's not at all what I was saying.
> 
> I'm saying that my Master is certified in multiple organizations.  Not that the organizations are trying to merge.


Wasn't at all talking about your Master. I was replying to your comment about certification.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 20, 2018)

The truth is that you don’t actually need any credentials at all. You simply tell prospective students that you are an (insert # here) degree black belt with (insert # here) Year’s of experience. There are plenty of people out there who have embellished there credentials. Some of them even have something worthwhile to teach. 

Informed people may recognize something funny, but most prospects are not informed. They will believe whatever their first teacher tells them, even when confronted with the truth. 


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> The subject of credentialing (being able to prove you are capable of teaching what you say you are) has come up in several threads recently, such as:
> 
> Ranks are meaningless
> I used to think ranks are meaningless, but now I need one for bureaucratic reasons and I'm lower rank than I need
> ...


I missed this thread when you started it, and haven't read any of the replies yet, so forgive me if I'm rehashing points.

I'll use my primary art, because this has been a point of discussion there for years. Within the NGAA (the largest organization, by an order of magnitude), there are technically 6 dan ranks, though only 5 have ever been used (head of style is currently treated as "outside the ranks", and will probably promote his successor to 6th). Since most arts instructors have taught around are closer to what you describe with TKD, there's long been a perceived issue. Average time to BB in NGAA is about 7 years - I took about 12. Most chief instructors are 2nd degree (last technical degree - all others are honorary), and most open schools with 1st degree (which also serves as instructor certification in the NGAA). From time to time, instructors petition the head of the NGAA to extend ranks to 10 dans (he did cave in and add the 6th a few decades ago, but never used it). Some of those who've left the organization have changed to a 10-dan system, though without actually fixing the issue for their students (they don't seem to change the qualifications for 1st and 2nd - just add more honorary ranks and promote each other to higher levels).

I've never been bothered by it. Most of my time was spent training under 2nd dans, so when I created my own curriculum and structure, I just got rid of dan ranks. Ranks end at black belt. After that, I have two levels of instructor certification (instructor and senior instructor, the latter having the ability to certify instructors). I wear two stripes (stripes mark those instructor levels), and most in NGA think of that as "2nd dan", which is fine, because that's the closest match. Probably students would see it that way to, but I've never had anyone ask about rank, nor comment on it, except to ask how ranks work in the style. Heck, part of the time I'm wearing hakama, so you can't even see my stripes, and when I train at an NGAA school, I wear no stripes, at all (the equivalent in my structure of a BB student, not instructor).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

jobo said:


> the short answer is you can't tell and nor past a certain point does the ability of the instructor matter as long as he has mastery of the techniques he is teaching,
> .if some place you want to teach at requires a black belt, go and buy a blackbelt, easy, then you can say you have one,


Most places that require that actually want to see evidence of the promotion. I've had multiple places ask to see my instructor certification, which the NGAA has never issued, so I just give them the records of my promotions and leave it at that.


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## jobo (Jun 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Most places that require that actually want to see evidence of the promotion. I've had multiple places ask to see my instructor certification, which the NGAA has never issued, so I just give them the records of my promotions and leave it at that.


how are a,record of promotions evidence  of anything,tma is a,completely unregulated, industry , a record of promotions mean nothing, with out some back ground criteria, they could even be a record of self promotion. And mean much th same, all that happens is they have a box to tick and anything that allows them to tick that box is sufficient

there nothing to stop you and a couple of like minded folk, setting up the NGAA, instructors certificate association and giving yourself instructets certificates


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## WaterGal (Jun 21, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Then I have totally misunderstood what you, and some others for that matter, meant by credentialing.  I thought you meant something on the order of a separate training course of some sort, or purported set of training, that would then be used as proof of qualification to teach.  I envisioned people wanting to use it when not yet belted in a school, or low belted and perhaps start a school.   Apparently not what you really meant.



Some styles or organizations do have credentials for teaching, which would be something you'd get in _addition _to having a rank. For example, Kukkiwon offers a Master Instructor certification, which is a 40(?) hour course you can take that goes over teaching, details of the material, philosophy, etc. IIRC, you have to be a 4th dan in KKW TKD to even sign up for the class, so it's not an option for just random whoever. But the goal is to try to improve standards and make sure everyone is teaching the KKW curriculum the right way.

That's something that makes sense to me, because being good at _doing _a thing and being good at _teaching _it are different.


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## Buka (Jun 21, 2018)

Thinking back over the years, I don't think I've ever been asked for any credentials, certifications etc from anybody for anything having to do with Martial Arts anywhere, ever.

That seems kind of odd to me right now.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> But that's the thing, most novices to MA aren't actually looking at the degree or accreditation. They see the 3 schools, they may glance at "okay, 6th degree...3rd degree...Kung Fu master...", and not look any more than that. More often than not, they will then say "oh that style looks/sounds cool/legit, I'll check them out", or "they're schedule is 7-830 each night, that works better for me than the 6-7 3 times a week", or "They cost $95, that school costs $125". Those are generally on people's minds before the question of rank. Then when they go to the place, their focus is on how friendly and/or impressive the person seems, and how much they enjoy the first class.
> 
> And for the people who do focus on rank, they're likely also the ones who will go online looking up "what should I watch out for", and hear all the things about high level BBs being frauds, and running mcdojos, and who knows what they will choose then.
> 
> ...


Agreed. In fact, I think consumers are likely more swayed by number of years than a rank (or lack thereof). My rank within my curriculum is just "black belt", and I am a Senior Instructor. But "Seymour has been studying and training martial arts since 1982" is far more influential to most prospective students. Hell, I still react more to that than a rank, when I hear some of the MT folks talking about their training back in the '70's.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> Because people know the difference between basketball and hockey.  To the layman they're all "karate".


This is largely true, except where they may know the name of a specific art or two (I often get asked if I teach BJJ, even after they've watched part of a class, proving they know the name but have no idea what BJJ actually is).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> Any rank or grade is only as good as the body awarding it
> 
> It has been known for people to go online and ummm order a scroll all made out in proper writing etc ...so yes anyone pushing the rank at the fore front is on an ego trip ...is hiding something or has maybe not actually got it in the first place ...
> 
> ...


I don't think most consumers are informed enough to figure out which are "legitimate" grading bodies, much less what those ranks mean based upon who awarded them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> Half of my Taekwondo students come in and tell me they're excited because it's karate class today.
> 
> It's like if was to go "Xerox something" on a Ricoh copier.


And it often takes months for my students to finally "get it" that I don't teach "Aikido" if they knew what that art was, coming in.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 21, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> Some styles or organizations do have credentials for teaching, which would be something you'd get in _addition _to having a rank. For example, Kukkiwon offers a Master Instructor certification, which is a 40(?) hour course you can take that goes over teaching, details of the material, philosophy, etc. IIRC, you have to be a 4th dan in KKW TKD to even sign up for the class, so it's not an option for just random whoever. But the goal is to try to improve standards and make sure everyone is teaching the KKW curriculum the right way.
> 
> That's something that makes sense to me, because being good at _doing _a thing and being good at _teaching _it are different.



I am a Kukkiwon certified master instructor. You can take the course before receiving 4th dan. However, you receive a certificate of completion rather than instructor certification. Assuming you pass the exam at the end, you can apply for instructor certification upon attaining 4th dan. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

jobo said:


> how are a,record of promotions evidence  of anything,tma is a,completely unregulated, industry , a record of promotions mean nothing, with out some back ground criteria, they could even be a record of self promotion. And mean much th same, all that happens is they have a box to tick and anything that allows them to tick that box is sufficient
> 
> there nothing to stop you and a couple of like minded folk, setting up the NGAA, instructors certificate association and giving yourself instructets certificates


I agree. I'm just saying that buying the belt doesn't satisfy the requirements of those places. Where I've given copies of my records, nobody there has any idea what the NGAA is, who Richard Bowe or John Wyndham are, or whether any of that even matters. They're probably just covering their butts for liability purposes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

Buka said:


> Thinking back over the years, I don't think I've ever been asked for any credentials, certifications etc from anybody for anything having to do with Martial Arts anywhere, ever.
> 
> That seems kind of odd to me right now.


Both places I've run my program asked for it, as did a group that was considering having me in for to teach a workshop. It always seems odd to me. The closest comparison I can think of is if I asked somebody to tell me who worked on the car I'm considering buying. I probably don't know that mechanic/shop, and I'm not sure what it can possibly tell me about the car.


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## jobo (Jun 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I agree. I'm just saying that buying the belt doesn't satisfy the requirements of those places. Where I've given copies of my records, nobody there has any idea what the NGAA is, who Richard Bowe or John Wyndham are, or whether any of that even matters. They're probably just covering their butts for liability purposes.


no your right, just buy the belt isn't enough, you have to have a ceremony do a lot of bowing and present it to yourself along with a certificate you knocked up on Microsoft word, then your good to go


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

jobo said:


> no your right, just buy the belt isn't enough, you have to have a ceremony do a lot of bowing and present it to yourself along with a certificate you knocked up on Microsoft word, then your good to go


Yep, that was the point.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 21, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> That is something that is very true ...we all can differentiate but to the layman Karate is the one all know as it was probably the first one to be promoted and advertised in the "west"
> 
> I said before that it would be interesting in getting and advertising pros opinion on this as it may differ from what those who are already students of the arts
> 
> ...



Judo had been on the scene in the west, prior to WW2... and there were a few promoter/advocates of it. prior to WW2, karate made it to Hawaii... but not so much on the mainland of the usa.

GIs and Marines were the driving force that brought Karate to the West. 

At lot of schools were very small, but steady growth. But KungFu Cinema Superstars like Bruce Lee made Asian Martial Arts a superhot commodity.

Judo became a footnote and the meteoric rise of striking arts took hold of the pop culture psyche.
Kungfu, and karate were what Americans called anything Asian that was punched and kicks.

Even TKD suffered decades of explaining "no we are not karate" to Americans in the west. But a great many practicing TSD folks just rolled with calling it korean karate.

And it gets better.... in Okinawa, some Karate bigwigs called Bruce Lee "a highly skilled, dangerous karateka".... which raises a question, or a few.

Is our western view that categorizes, labels, subdivided, actually missing something?

If you ask someone... "What is your art?" In a lot of Korean arts, you often hear a textbook answer recited. The same question is asked during Gup belt tests. Its not much different in a lot of other Asian martial arts.

But almost all... are Mudo, or Budo training... which is at its core very holistic and multidisciplinary in nature. 

Historically, a budoka is expected to learn, become proficient and eventually master many combat arts. Archery, swordsmanship, hand to hand, horseback combat, spear/staff fighting. And remain invested in learning any new forms of warfare that become the new M.O. of war.

In essence, the pursuit of study to become well versed in warfare (all means, and all methods) is the art. That is the historical budo... over time,  lot of philosophy was blended in.... which further localized budo into a specific culture.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. In fact, I think consumers are likely more swayed by number of years than a rank (or lack thereof). My rank within my curriculum is just "black belt", and I am a Senior Instructor. But "Seymour has been studying and training martial arts since 1982" is far more influential to most prospective students. Hell, I still react more to that than a rank, when I hear some of the MT folks talking about their training back in the '70's.


get off my lawn!


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## dvcochran (Jun 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I missed this thread when you started it, and haven't read any of the replies yet, so forgive me if I'm rehashing points.
> 
> I'll use my primary art, because this has been a point of discussion there for years. Within the NGAA (the largest organization, by an order of magnitude), there are technically 6 dan ranks, though only 5 have ever been used (head of style is currently treated as "outside the ranks", and will probably promote his successor to 6th). Since most arts instructors have taught around are closer to what you describe with TKD, there's long been a perceived issue. Average time to BB in NGAA is about 7 years - I took about 12. Most chief instructors are 2nd degree (last technical degree - all others are honorary), and most open schools with 1st degree (which also serves as instructor certification in the NGAA). From time to time, instructors petition the head of the NGAA to extend ranks to 10 dans (he did cave in and add the 6th a few decades ago, but never used it). Some of those who've left the organization have changed to a 10-dan system, though without actually fixing the issue for their students (they don't seem to change the qualifications for 1st and 2nd - just add more honorary ranks and promote each other to higher levels).
> 
> I've never been bothered by it. Most of my time was spent training under 2nd dans, so when I created my own curriculum and structure, I just got rid of dan ranks. Ranks end at black belt. After that, I have two levels of instructor certification (instructor and senior instructor, the latter having the ability to certify instructors). I wear two stripes (stripes mark those instructor levels), and most in NGA think of that as "2nd dan", which is fine, because that's the closest match. Probably students would see it that way to, but I've never had anyone ask about rank, nor comment on it, except to ask how ranks work in the style. Heck, part of the time I'm wearing hakama, so you can't even see my stripes, and when I train at an NGAA school, I wear no stripes, at all (the equivalent in my structure of a BB student, not instructor).



You are touching on why I have never been worried about ranking higher with the Kukkiwon. It just doesn't mean what it should, and certainly not what it did 20 years ago. Honestly, I value my MDK rank more.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> You are touching on why I have never been worried about ranking higher with the Kukkiwon. It just doesn't mean what it should, and certainly not what it did 20 years ago. Honestly, I value my MDK rank more.


I'm not sure what it "should" mean.


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## skribs (Jun 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> This is largely true, except where they may know the name of a specific art or two (I often get asked if I teach BJJ, even after they've watched part of a class, proving they know the name but have no idea what BJJ actually is).



Or how many people call it a "judo chop" when judo doesn't really focus on strikes.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> Or how many people call it a "judo chop" when judo doesn't really focus on strikes.



yeah.... funny that. except that atemi was very much a focus of the real judo. Shame that the Judo art has its name dragged through the mud, by people who have ruined the beautiful art. Kinda like how judo used to have incredible leg grabs.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 21, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> You are touching on why I have never been worried about ranking higher with the Kukkiwon. It just doesn't mean what it should, and certainly not what it did 20 years ago. Honestly, I value my MDK rank more.



I would say..."as well you should" but I don't want to offend anyone of the TKD set. Especially my TKD friends here. So I guess I won't.

Like hell I won't...


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## JR 137 (Jun 21, 2018)

skribs said:


> Or how many people call it a "judo chop" when judo doesn't really focus on strikes.


Thank Austin Powers for that one.  

But yeah, Judo has atemi waza, as shown by TSDTexan’s video.


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## GreatSayiaman (Jun 21, 2018)

When it Comes to Muay Thai in the Traditional most Authentic  there is really no Ranking in terms of a Traditional Belt system, However I learned in Thailand all fighters get a Praciat showing that you are one of the Pros of the Art and Sport, A Praciat is similar in terms to a good luck charm and In reality that is it. I do know some Muay Thai Gyms within the US do their own Ranking system, However my Kru/Coach does not do a Ranking system as his Previous Kru does not do one either.

BTW that is my Kru/Coach in the Video I'm showing


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## dvcochran (Jun 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure what it "should" mean.


It is a subjective point. Hard to reconcile is the excitement and passion I had in my 20's and 30's with my more seasoned and experienced self. The drive for self accomplishment is still there but the need for a visual goal isn't as necessary. So "should" likely stems from a mild feeling that, despite their best intentions, Kukkiwon belting isn't respected as highly as it once was. Maybe it is simply the volume of Kukkiwon belters out there. The sheer numbers creates some mediocrity. 
As for attaining a BB, the value should never be tarnished. It is truly what you make it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 22, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> It is a subjective point. Hard to reconcile is the excitement and passion I had in my 20's and 30's with my more seasoned and experienced self. The drive for self accomplishment is still there but the need for a visual goal isn't as necessary. So "should" likely stems from a mild feeling that, despite their best intentions, Kukkiwon belting isn't respected as highly as it once was. Maybe it is simply the volume of Kukkiwon belters out there. The sheer numbers creates some mediocrity.
> As for attaining a BB, the value should never be tarnished. It is truly what you make it.


It may also be that with more experience, you see the mediocrity more clearly. I know that 20 years ago I was more impressed with new BB in NGA than I am now with seasoned ones. I don't think the quality has gone down (and certainly not to that extent), but my awareness has gone up.


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## dvcochran (Jun 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It may also be that with more experience, you see the mediocrity more clearly. I know that 20 years ago I was more impressed with new BB in NGA than I am now with seasoned ones. I don't think the quality has gone down (and certainly not to that extent), but my awareness has gone up.


Very, very good point.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 22, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> Judo had been on the scene in the west, prior to WW2... and there were a few promoter/advocates of it. prior to WW2, karate made it to Hawaii... but not so much on the mainland of the usa.
> 
> GIs and Marines were the driving force that brought Karate to the West.
> 
> ...



When I studied under Mr Rhee, that was how we usually described it; "It's like a Korean karate."  People just didn't know much about martial arts back then.  But of course they 'knew' that a black belt had to register his hands as a deadly weapon with the local police; and that if someone told you they studied Karate just to scare you the first thing to look at was to see if the had callouses on their knuckles; a real give-away.  The unusually well informed would usually know that black belts were experts who could kill with just one blow.  Oh, and a karate guy could not attack you without shouting "karate" three times or he could go to jail.

Ah, the mystery we have lost.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 22, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Very, very good point.


I just love clicking “agree” on comments like that.


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## JR 137 (Jun 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It may also be that with more experience, you see the mediocrity more clearly. I know that 20 years ago I was more impressed with new BB in NGA than I am now with seasoned ones. I don't think the quality has gone down (and certainly not to that extent), but my awareness has gone up.


The less experienced you are, and probably the younger you are, the higher that pedestal is IMO.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It may also be that with more experience, you see the mediocrity more clearly. I know that 20 years ago I was more impressed with new BB in NGA than I am now with seasoned ones. I don't think the quality has gone down (and certainly not to that extent), but my awareness has gone up.




Do you mean there are places that give the BB based on lower standards, than what should be used? How sinful. When I was a rowdy teen, and a lowly green belt I smashed a fair number of BBs at tournaments.

 My master really didn't want me to enter said tournaments, so I had an alternate uniform and belt. So many schools turn out a BB student that cannot fight. 

This sickens my soul.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 23, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> Do you mean there are places that give the BB based on lower standards, than what should be used? How sinful. When I was a rowdy teen, and a lowly green belt I smashed a fair number of BBs at tournaments.
> 
> My master really didn't want me to enter said tournaments, so I had an alternate uniform and belt. So many schools turn out a BB student that cannot fight.
> 
> This sickens my soul.


I'm not sure what you mean by "lower...than what should be". I'm not sure what the standards "should be". If I entered a Karate tournament and got beat by a non-BB in Kyokushin, I wouldn't be amazed (though I might be a bit embarrassed). If I got beat by a non-BB in TKD, I'd be both amazed and embarrassed. I don't think that says anything all that interesting about my BB, nor the BB from either of those styles. The BB just means something different in each of the styles in question.


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## JR 137 (Jun 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "lower...than what should be". I'm not sure what the standards "should be". If I entered a Karate tournament and got beat by a non-BB in Kyokushin, I wouldn't be amazed (though I might be a bit embarrassed). If I got beat by a non-BB in TKD, I'd be both amazed and embarrassed. I don't think that says anything all that interesting about my BB, nor the BB from either of those styles. The BB just means something different in each of the styles in question.


And that black belt means different things to different people within a school, let alone an entire organization.    I currently train with and have previously trained with black belts of varying physical skill and abilities.  I’ve been around black belts who ‘weren’t very good’ who progressed significantly from day one, worked their butts off to get where they are, had significant physical limitations, etc.  I currently and previously trained with people who had a ton of talent and a solid work ethic who held the same and/or lower rank than the other group.

Rank is an individual thing.  Sure their can be standards, but they’re minimum standards and not maximum standards when applied.

If rank always equals ability, that means that every 3rd dan can beat every 2nd dan and lower every time; every 2nd dan would have to beat every 1st dan and lower, etc.  Impossible, even for the highest regarded and praised ranking standards.  If BJJ is the good standard in ranking (I think it’s about as close to a gold standard as I’ve seen), even they’re not close to truly attaining the impossible task of every higher rank beating every lower rank.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "lower...than what should be". I'm not sure what the standards "should be". If I entered a Karate tournament and got beat by a non-BB in Kyokushin, I wouldn't be amazed (though I might be a bit embarrassed). If I got beat by a non-BB in TKD, I'd be both amazed and embarrassed. I don't think that says anything all that interesting about my BB, nor the BB from either of those styles. The BB just means something different in each of the styles in question.




Lower standards than practical and effective... such as poor and sloppy technique. vs Smooth refined polished technique that shows a high attention to detail burned into muscle memory.

let's say there are two Shodan, and they are testing for Nidan. one performs all the testing and when demonstrating his forms from kyu through shodan.... he executes with a mindless grace that shows he has spent thousands of hours drilling and polishing his technique. He is in peak condition.
and he could actually land his stuff in a self defense encounter. He isn't just prepared. He is ready.

The other guy demonstrates a basic proficiency.... but it looks like he is under a huge amount of mental and physical stress, and looks just gassed out from effort. And he is only half way into his test.
In the end... he completes his test... but there is an uncertainty, or uneasiness about him. 
He is a cookie cutter BB.


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## pdg (Jun 23, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> Lower standards than practical and effective... such as poor and sloppy technique. vs Smooth refined polished technique that shows a high attention to detail burned into muscle memory.
> 
> let's say there are two Shodan, and they are testing for Nidan. one performs all the testing and when demonstrating his forms from kyu through shodan.... he executes with a mindless grace that shows he has spent thousands of hours drilling and polishing his technique. He is in peak condition.
> and he could actually land his stuff in a self defense encounter. He isn't just prepared. He is ready.
> ...



Well that's obviously based on your expectation and interpretation of what a low dan black belt signifies.

I can think of more than a few arts where 1st - 3rd dan are "beginner" or "novice" level...

Getting a BB isn't the end goal that a lot of people think it should be, it's the start of phase two.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> And that black belt means different things to different people within a school, let alone an entire organization.    I currently train with and have previously trained with black belts of varying physical skill and abilities.  I’ve been around black belts who ‘weren’t very good’ who progressed significantly from day one, worked their butts off to get where they are, had significant physical limitations, etc.  I currently and previously trained with people who had a ton of talent and a solid work ethic who held the same and/or lower rank than the other group.
> 
> Rank is an individual thing.  Sure their can be standards, but they’re minimum standards and not maximum standards when applied.
> 
> If rank always equals ability, that means that every 3rd dan can beat every 2nd dan and lower every time; every 2nd dan would have to beat every 1st dan and lower, etc.  Impossible, even for the highest regarded and praised ranking standards.  If BJJ is the good standard in ranking (I think it’s about as close to a gold standard as I’ve seen), even they’re not close to truly attaining the impossible task of every higher rank beating every lower rank.


I'd modify that slightly to say that if rank equals ability, every 3rd dan can beat every 2nd dan more often than not. If rank were an re-evaluated thing, that would be possible (in other words, rank would indicate _current_ ability). Rank has never, in my experience, been used that way. Everywhere I've been, it indicated highest level of achievement, even when it was meant to (mostly) indicate ability.

But, yeah, I've been learning over the last few years (especially here on MT) that rank means more than martial (or even "martial arts") ability. In many systems, it's also about what you've managed to do - and that means a given rank can mean different things, depending what the natural limitations of an individual are. I struggle (as an instructor) with how to honor achievement without giving away ranks too easily.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 23, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> Lower standards than practical and effective... such as poor and sloppy technique. vs Smooth refined polished technique that shows a high attention to detail burned into muscle memory.
> 
> let's say there are two Shodan, and they are testing for Nidan. one performs all the testing and when demonstrating his forms from kyu through shodan.... he executes with a mindless grace that shows he has spent thousands of hours drilling and polishing his technique. He is in peak condition.
> and he could actually land his stuff in a self defense encounter. He isn't just prepared. He is ready.
> ...


If the first person is naturally athletic, and the second struggles with coordination, the second may have worked harder and achieved more to get there. More to the point, if both actually meet the requirements for the rank, then I'm not sure I see any issue with both receiving the rank. You seem to be asserting that the mindless grace is what "should" be part of the requirements for nidan in this particular system. If it's not a stated/understood requirement, then does it matter, and how much?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> Well that's obviously based on your expectation and interpretation of what a low dan black belt signifies.
> 
> I can think of more than a few arts where 1st - 3rd dan are "beginner" or "novice" level...
> 
> Getting a BB isn't the end goal that a lot of people think it should be, it's the start of phase two.


In some systems, more a start of phase three, but that's the same point, really.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> Well that's obviously based on your expectation and interpretation of what a low dan black belt signifies.
> 
> I can think of more than a few arts where 1st - 3rd dan are "beginner" or "novice" level...
> 
> Getting a BB isn't the end goal that a lot of people think it should be, it's the start of phase two.



I agree, in part. A shodan BB, as I was taught (3 decades ago) simply means one has mastered the basics.  but there are a lot of folks who have not mastered their basics, with a number of stripes on their blackbelt. This is the lowered standards to which I refer.


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## pdg (Jun 23, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> I agree, in part. A shodan BB, as I was taught (3 decades ago) simply means one has mastered the basics.  but there are a lot of folks who have not mastered their basics, with a number of stripes on their blackbelt. This is the lowered standards to which I refer.



I sort of agree in a way.

If you can't do the basics then you "shouldn't" get through the colour belts.

But on the flip side - it's not all about pure physical combat ability as compared to other students in most systems.

Personal improvement has to play a part, as does overcoming something like physical/medical challenges.

It's also about what you can do for the art.

Example: there's a woman at our club who is a 1st dan - to see her 'perform' it could be thought that she shouldn't have a BB around her waist.

But, she's great with the younger kids, she teaches well, she motivates well. She's someone who inspires them to keep turning up and to keep trying. At least a few of those kids will grow with the art and keep it alive.

Honestly, in my opinion she's more valuable to the art than a stuck up pretentious git of a 3rd dan fighter who belittles and alienates everyone who's not there to bleed and ends up in a club of one...


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## TSDTexan (Jun 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If the first person is naturally athletic, and the second struggles with coordination, the second may have worked harder and achieved more to get there. More to the point, if both actually meet the requirements for the rank, then I'm not sure I see any issue with both receiving the rank. You seem to be asserting that the mindless grace is what "should" be part of the requirements for nidan in this particular system. If it's not a stated/understood requirement, then does it matter, and how much?



Well... it's a case by case based. But I can tell which students are putting in the time to drive home their lessons. And which ones never do their homework.

The mindless grace... a descriptor that I chose. It's another way to describe mushin or flow state.

And you aren't going to obtain it by simply attending class twice a week for one hour a session.

The point is.... if you can barely pass the proficiency bar at a testing.... how are you going to perform in a real world examination?

The stress of a real world fight is way way higher.

The strength of being able to relax and trust ones training... of being in the flow state or entering mushin is critically important. Dare I say... vital.

Being proficient under mild pressure, and being ready are not the same thing.

and yea.... standards are very subjective. But in the end... a martial art should prepare one to fight.

If a nidan has serious problems taking a 5th kyu belt... perhaps he or she should work on mastering what they already have been taught.

Just saying.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 24, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> The point is.... if you can barely pass the proficiency bar at a testing.... how are you going to perform in a real world examination?


But you say here that they passed the proficiency bar for testing. That means they've met the requirements for that rank. I agree that this doesn't mean they're ready for a real-world altercation, but that doesn't mean they haven't met the rank standards...it just means that's not what the rank means.



TSDTexan said:


> If a nidan has serious problems taking a 5th kyu belt... perhaps he or she should work on mastering what they already have been taught.


That depends upon the 5th kyu, too, though. If the nidan is barely a nidan (met the requirements, but barely), or perhaps is aging and not physically what they once were, then they face a vigorous, aggressive, and athletic 5th kyu, it's not unreasonable that the 5th kyu has a chance there. Now, if a nidan (absent age and one-off honorary promotions) typically has problems handling 5th kyu students, that's a different matter. 

And, of course, we also have to ask, in this hypothetical system, what's the difference in time typically between these points? I've seen a school where 18 months to shodan was pretty common, and nidan within a year after. That's less than 3 years of regular attendance (and probably some work outside class) to get to nidan. That's not a ton of time, and that athletic and aggressive 5th kyu (maybe a couple of months of training) could reasonably cause some problems.


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## skribs (Jun 25, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'd modify that slightly to say that if rank equals ability, every 3rd dan can beat every 2nd dan more often than not. If rank were an re-evaluated thing, that would be possible (in other words, rank would indicate _current_ ability). Rank has never, in my experience, been used that way. Everywhere I've been, it indicated highest level of achievement, even when it was meant to (mostly) indicate ability.
> 
> But, yeah, I've been learning over the last few years (especially here on MT) that rank means more than martial (or even "martial arts") ability. In many systems, it's also about what you've managed to do - and that means a given rank can mean different things, depending what the natural limitations of an individual are. I struggle (as an instructor) with how to honor achievement without giving away ranks too easily.



I'm trying to find the best way to describe this.  Basically, I intellectually understand martial arts a lot better than I can apply them.  In the case of Taekwondo sparring, for example, I understand the concepts of the open and closed stance, and the most opportune targets based on your distance and orientation towards your opponent.  But when I'm actually sparring it's like my wires get crossed and I have a hard time keeping up.  I've never been that athletic, never had the hand-eye coordination for sports growing up, and I've always been small.  I work 13+ hours a day, so I don't find much time to work out.  I'm on the mat teaching a ton, but I don't have time to focus specifically on my muscles, which means that in addition to having spotty reaction times, I don't have the speed or strength to make up for it.

So there are lots of students that are lower dan rank than me, and some even that aren't black belts yet, that I'm sure could beat me in a sparring match.  But even though I have trouble with the actual application, I have a better understanding of the curriculum and the science behind it than most, if not all of the other students at my school, and I am a much better instructor than most of them at my school (in large part because I've been heavily trained in instruction for the last 4 years and most of our other students have just started teaching little bits here and there).

_I'm not trying to make excuses.  I know what things I need to work on.  I'm just saying that where I am right now, I am not the best fighter at my school, but I am one of the best teachers._


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 25, 2018)

as i read thru these last posts i feel as a society and martial community we expect ranking to express more than it has the ability to do so.  as a result the meaning of rank is quite encompassing and fluid.



gpseymour said:


> I struggle (as an instructor) with how to honor achievement without giving away ranks too easily.





gpseymour said:


> rank means more than martial (or even "martial arts") ability.



i have been thinking about how to give recognition that matches the meaning behind the award.  one option was a very defined meaning for the ranks and not everyone will get every rank.  the colors of the belts will not be a linear progression.  so a red belt will signify a warrior someone who can apply their art in combat. a black belt would signify someone who has a academic and full understanding of the material perhaps someone who is a good teacher.
the second thought would be to have military like award medals.  so if someone was a full contact competitor he would get a certain medal, where as someone who takes a more spiritual path would get a different medal or some type of recognition that everyone in the organization would be able to identify and know what it signifies.   this takes the place of a belt having to mean multiple things and could be a sole marker of the material one is working on and seniority.  the only problem i have with some kind of medal system is how to display them while in class.


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## skribs (Jun 25, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> the second thought would be to have military like award medals. so if someone was a full contact competitor he would get a certain medal, where as someone who takes a more spiritual path would get a different medal or some type of recognition that everyone in the organization would be able to identify and know what it signifies. this takes the place of a belt having to mean multiple things and could be a sole marker of the material one is working on and seniority. the only problem i have with some kind of medal system is how to display them while in class.



I had a strange idea.  I don't know if it's good or bad.  It's not something I've really fleshed out.  But it's an idea.  The idea is you would be ranked differently for different aspects of the art, up to black belt.  To get your 2nd degree black belt, you simply must have black belt rank in 2 aspects of the art.

Say your art includes curriculum for striking, grappling, knife fighting, and stick fighting, which will pretty much cover the majority of your improvised weapons (who carries around nunchucks or swords?  who has easy access to a tire iron, baseball bat, or kitchen knife?).  So you get your black belt in the striking course and in the knife course, and viola!  2nd degree!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2018)

skribs said:


> I'm trying to find the best way to describe this.  Basically, I intellectually understand martial arts a lot better than I can apply them.  In the case of Taekwondo sparring, for example, I understand the concepts of the open and closed stance, and the most opportune targets based on your distance and orientation towards your opponent.  But when I'm actually sparring it's like my wires get crossed and I have a hard time keeping up.  I've never been that athletic, never had the hand-eye coordination for sports growing up, and I've always been small.  I work 13+ hours a day, so I don't find much time to work out.  I'm on the mat teaching a ton, but I don't have time to focus specifically on my muscles, which means that in addition to having spotty reaction times, I don't have the speed or strength to make up for it.
> 
> So there are lots of students that are lower dan rank than me, and some even that aren't black belts yet, that I'm sure could beat me in a sparring match.  But even though I have trouble with the actual application, I have a better understanding of the curriculum and the science behind it than most, if not all of the other students at my school, and I am a much better instructor than most of them at my school (in large part because I've been heavily trained in instruction for the last 4 years and most of our other students have just started teaching little bits here and there).
> 
> _I'm not trying to make excuses.  I know what things I need to work on.  I'm just saying that where I am right now, I am not the best fighter at my school, but I am one of the best teachers._


This is where I get into "rank isn't necessarily about fighting ability". As an instructor, your ability to teach (usually including your understanding of the principles) - your ability to help others do - is far more important than your ability to do. That's why an aging instructor can still be very valuable, even if he's well past his physical prime and cannot do some things he teaches. And at some point, ranks should probably reflect the changing priorities. Up to a point, I like for rank to indicate specific physical ability (with some allowance for different starting points). Beyond that point, I want to see continued improvement, effort, and understanding. Those will come with some increases in physical ability to fight, but that might be offset by what's lost to age, for instance. Where that change should be depends upon the curriculum and the aims of the school, but I think instructors should make it a conscious choice.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> as i read thru these last posts i feel as a society and martial community we expect ranking to express more than it has the ability to do so.  as a result the meaning of rank is quite encompassing and fluid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That latter idea is something I've toyed with in the past. I tried to figure out a way to offer rank in NGA (technical rank for the core 50 classical techniques), rank for free sparring ability, and maybe weapons-related rank. The idea was just what you're referring to: someone might excel in one area and be limited in another, or might just only want to study one. Belt rank would have either been their NGA rank, their highest earned rank, or some composite rank. If I'd done the composite rank, there'd be some indicator of what areas they'd "qualified" in - shoulder patches or something showing areas they'd met some high standard in. If I had a larger program, it might have been worth figuring out how to handle that, but it just seemed like too much to bother with for my few students at a time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2018)

skribs said:


> I had a strange idea.  I don't know if it's good or bad.  It's not something I've really fleshed out.  But it's an idea.  The idea is you would be ranked differently for different aspects of the art, up to black belt.  To get your 2nd degree black belt, you simply must have black belt rank in 2 aspects of the art.
> 
> Say your art includes curriculum for striking, grappling, knife fighting, and stick fighting, which will pretty much cover the majority of your improvised weapons (who carries around nunchucks or swords?  who has easy access to a tire iron, baseball bat, or kitchen knife?).  So you get your black belt in the striking course and in the knife course, and viola!  2nd degree!


That's an interesting concept. In your hypothetical system, would you want an indicator somehow for students to know which parts each person had earned their rank in? And would you do something different if someone ranked in every area of the system?


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## wab25 (Jun 25, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> But *I can tell* which students are putting in the time to drive home their lessons. And which ones never do their homework.


Unless you know the starting point for each individual student, and their medical / mental / physical challenges... I don't think you can. I am working with a guy right now, that when he came in, he had done absolutely nothing in his life that resembled athletics or physical work at all. He has a degree, and works in the educational field at a school. When you get to know him, he has some mental and physical challenges, that are not readily apparent. When he first came, he could stand on the mat casually... I could mark an X on the floor with tape, and ask him to put his left foot on the X. It would take him 6 or 7 tries to get his left foot on the X. He comes regularly to class and we keep working with him. He is slowly learning, and slowly progressing. It would be very easy to come in and watch the class and look at the goofy dork over there and assume he needs to take it more seriously, or do his homework outside of class. They would miss the amount of effort and homework he has done, to get to where he is. The point is that different people have different challenges to overcome to gain physical fitness, to gain flexibility, to gain balance or strength or coordination or timing, or any one of the traits. I have found that it is very easy to snap judge someone... yet very hard to correctly judge them... especially without knowing them. A guy like him, I don't think will ever make our katas look smooth or effortless... or maybe not even combat ready. But, if he gets to the point where he can perform all the katas successfully, I know it will represent quite a bit more work than it would for the "average" person.



TSDTexan said:


> The point is.... if you can barely pass the proficiency bar at a testing.... how are you going to perform in a real world examination?


I have seen many black belts, from many styles, get into the octagon at get demolished, regardless of the standards held by their ranking boards. I have likewise seen successful MMA fighters get jumped in parking lots or convenience stores and get hospitalized by completely untrained thugs. But then some of those guys that got owned in the octagon where decorated special forces guys with combat experience...

I see black belt or any rank actually, as a personal thing. They are not meant to compare one person to another. Aside from telling you how much of a system they may have seen... they don't tell you much, until you get to know that person and their personal history.


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## skribs (Jun 25, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That's an interesting concept. In your hypothetical system, would you want an indicator somehow for students to know which parts each person had earned their rank in? And would you do something different if someone ranked in every area of the system?



I'm not sure how I would denote each individual rank.  It's just an idea at this point, and not a proposal.  I am so far away from being competent at multiple disciplines it would be ludicrous for me to try and create my own.

At my Taekwondo school we also have Hapkido class, and we simply wear our Hapkido belt.  So I wear my 2nd Dan belt 95% of the time there, and then the hour a week I do hapkido, I wear an orange belt.  (And yes, the percentage is accurate).  So there's one way.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2018)

skribs said:


> I'm not sure how I would denote each individual rank.  It's just an idea at this point, and not a proposal.  I am so far away from being competent at multiple disciplines it would be ludicrous for me to try and create my own.
> 
> At my Taekwondo school we also have Hapkido class, and we simply wear our Hapkido belt.  So I wear my 2nd Dan belt 95% of the time there, and then the hour a week I do hapkido, I wear an orange belt.  (And yes, the percentage is accurate).  So there's one way.


That works well when the disciplines are separate like that (a friend with an NGA/BJJ school does that - there's a mass changing-of-belts between classes). In my curriculum (in its current state) they aren't separated, so I'd be doing something closer to the idea you posited earlier. Maybe someday it'll be worth me figuring out how to do.


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## skribs (Jun 25, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That works well when the disciplines are separate like that (a friend with an NGA/BJJ school does that - there's a mass changing-of-belts between classes). In my curriculum (in its current state) they aren't separated, so I'd be doing something closer to the idea you posited earlier. Maybe someday it'll be worth me figuring out how to do.



It would be hard, especially because how do you keep track of what is what?  Especially the more things you have.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2018)

skribs said:


> It would be hard, especially because how do you keep track of what is what?  Especially the more things you have.


Agreed. One thing that occurs is using belt stripes. So, perhaps 4 stripes on the belt, with each denoting level in a given area. Then the belts look like @drop bear’s gi.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 25, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Unless you know the starting point for each individual student, and their medical / mental / physical challenges... I don't think you can. I am working with a guy right now, that when he came in, he had done absolutely nothing in his life that resembled athletics or physical work at all. He has a degree, and works in the educational field at a school. When you get to know him, he has some mental and physical challenges, that are not readily apparent. When he first came, he could stand on the mat casually... I could mark an X on the floor with tape, and ask him to put his left foot on the X. It would take him 6 or 7 tries to get his left foot on the X. He comes regularly to class and we keep working with him. He is slowly learning, and slowly progressing. It would be very easy to come in and watch the class and look at the goofy dork over there and assume he needs to take it more seriously, or do his homework outside of class. They would miss the amount of effort and homework he has done, to get to where he is. The point is that different people have different challenges to overcome to gain physical fitness, to gain flexibility, to gain balance or strength or coordination or timing, or any one of the traits. I have found that it is very easy to snap judge someone... yet very hard to correctly judge them... especially without knowing them. A guy like him, I don't think will ever make our katas look smooth or effortless... or maybe not even combat ready. But, if he gets to the point where he can perform all the katas successfully, I know it will represent quite a bit more work than it would for the "average" person.
> 
> 
> I have seen many black belts, from many styles, get into the octagon at get demolished, regardless of the standards held by their ranking boards. I have likewise seen successful MMA fighters get jumped in parking lots or convenience stores and get hospitalized by completely untrained thugs. But then some of those guys that got owned in the octagon where decorated special forces guys with combat experience...
> ...




Actually...
I am fairly certain you would be wrong.
I have on a number of occasions spotted neurological abnormalities in an individual, prior to being directly informed. Ranging from a mild barely noticeable palsy, to an extremely high functioning autism spectrum individual.

I used to teach a version of Gracie's bullyproof jujitsu to a couple special needs halfway houses.
Not that I am saying I am fool proof, but it's been about a decade since I was surprised by physical learning disability/disorder in a student.

I think 95 percent of inspectors could achieve the same level of student awareness. It really isn't that hard.

The basis for my statement of telling who is doing their homework, requires some baseline observation.

I never start with the supposition that all the students are the same in skill acquisition rate. That though is only true in the most generic of senses. Skill acquisition falls on a bell curve.

Some only learn with herculean efforts, some are insanely gifted at learning, and then a large body of individuals in between.

The only fair way to ascertain how much progress or pushing through a student is doing... is to actually know that student well enough to know how fast he learns, and see his growth metrics.

The more an instructor does this the faster the ability becomes. Eventually you can do it without a lot of conscious thought.

Within three weeks, I can peg 15 students... and see who needs challenging, and see who is challenging themselves.

I can introduce a new form. Work on it in one class and at the next class I can immediately discern who was practicing it during the several day interval.

Even if it was just 30 minutes each day, I can see the difference.


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## Michele123 (Jun 25, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. One thing that occurs is using belt stripes. So, perhaps 4 stripes on the belt, with each denoting level in a given area. Then the belts look like @drop bear’s gi.



I’m following this with interest. As a hobby seamstress, what about a belt in a baseline. Color (white?) with pathways for threading smaller belts through the length of the belt. Effectively creating horizontal stripes. Depending on the thickness of the stripes, could maybe fit three on a belt. Top stripe could be striking, middle for grappling, bottom for sparring or that sort of thing. That way, one could level up in one area at a time. 

it would still have to be no thicker than a normal belt after all the stripes were in. Stripes would have to be changed easily and quickly but not come out on their own. Now I want some time to go create a proof of concept... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 26, 2018)

Michele123 said:


> I’m following this with interest. As a hobby seamstress, what about a belt in a baseline. Color (white?) with pathways for threading smaller belts through the length of the belt. Effectively creating horizontal stripes. Depending on the thickness of the stripes, could maybe fit three on a belt. Top stripe could be striking, middle for grappling, bottom for sparring or that sort of thing. That way, one could level up in one area at a time.
> 
> it would still have to be no thicker than a normal belt after all the stripes were in. Stripes would have to be changed easily and quickly but not come out on their own. Now I want some time to go create a proof of concept...
> 
> ...



you should think about creating a patent for this concept before someone steals it.
i really like the idea,  but i am concerned on how durable the belt would be.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2018)

Michele123 said:


> I’m following this with interest. As a hobby seamstress, what about a belt in a baseline. Color (white?) with pathways for threading smaller belts through the length of the belt. Effectively creating horizontal stripes. Depending on the thickness of the stripes, could maybe fit three on a belt. Top stripe could be striking, middle for grappling, bottom for sparring or that sort of thing. That way, one could level up in one area at a time.
> 
> it would still have to be no thicker than a normal belt after all the stripes were in. Stripes would have to be changed easily and quickly but not come out on their own. Now I want some time to go create a proof of concept...
> 
> ...


Okay, that's far more intricate than I was imagining - and even more like Drop Bear's gi!


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> *But you say here that they passed the proficiency bar for testing. That means they've met the requirements for that rank.* I agree that this doesn't mean they're ready for a real-world altercation, but that doesn't mean they haven't met the rank standards...it just means that's not what the rank means.
> 
> ...



So then, should we be discussing and quantifying standards more?

That said, there is logic to your statement in bold type.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> So then, should we be discussing and quantifying standards more?
> 
> That said, there is logic to your statement in bold type.


Possibly. If that's what we want. Or, perhaps, we should just accept that ranks (at least beyond a certain point) are somewhat subjective because of the mix of factors taken into account.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Possibly. If that's what we want. Or, perhaps, we should just accept that ranks (at least beyond a certain point) are somewhat subjective because of the mix of factors taken into account.



I am uncomfortable with the idea at lower belts, but I think it is fairly common at the higher belts.  It's just the two arts I studied, at the time I studied them, had certain standards and if you waned promotion to learn more, you first had to meet the lower promotion's standards.

I also understand the idea that there may be people of higher age and lesser physical abilities who shame most other students with their steadfast devotion to their desire to learn, and understand they must work harder, and do so.  Do you hold them to the same standards in the context of running a business?

Things I am glad I don't have to deal with.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 26, 2018)

my biggest problem is with the expectation people have, that if i put my time in i will get my black belt or my 5th black belt or 8th. we as a community over the years have established the expectation that rank is attainable by everyone.  so we have to live with the ramifications of that.   the converse side would be that most people do not achieve a certain level of rank.  which means as an instructor you have to explain to John Doe that the rank he has is probably going to be as high as he can go.. _ "sorry Johnny the rest of the class will be testing ..but frankly your not that good, and probably never will be"_
which is the greater evil?


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## Michele123 (Jun 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> my biggest problem is with the expectation people have, that if i put my time in i will get my black belt or my 5th black belt or 8th. we as a community over the years have established the expectation that rank is attainable by everyone.  so we have to live with the ramifications of that.   the converse side would be that most people do not achieve a certain level of rank.  which means as an instructor you have to explain to John Doe that the rank he has is probably going to be as high as he can go.. _ "sorry Johnny the rest of the class will be testing ..but frankly your not that good, and probably never will be"_
> which is the greater evil?



I like the way my old school did it. There was testing monthly but only a few people tested each time (those who were ready). So there was never an instance where the whole class was testing except one or two people.  Everyone was on their own schedule, moving at their own pace. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> my biggest problem is with the expectation people have, that if i put my time in i will get my black belt or my 5th black belt or 8th. we as a community over the years have established the expectation that rank is attainable by everyone.  so we have to live with the ramifications of that.   the converse side would be that most people do not achieve a certain level of rank.  which means as an instructor you have to explain to John Doe that the rank he has is probably going to be as high as he can go.. _ "sorry Johnny the rest of the class will be testing ..but frankly your not that good, and probably never will be"_
> which is the greater evil?



I looked but couldn't find the rating for 'very difficult situation.'


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## Michele123 (Jun 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> you should think about creating a patent for this concept before someone steals it.
> i really like the idea,  but i am concerned on how durable the belt would be.



Durability would depend on materials used as well as type of stitching. Having moving components would make durability more difficult but not impossible. 

I have no idea how I’d go about creating a patent nor if my idea is even any good. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 26, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I looked but couldn't find the rating for 'very difficult situation.'


im sure you had a good point but you lost me with the wording.  i am not sure what your trying to say.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I am uncomfortable with the idea at lower belts, but I think it is fairly common at the higher belts.  It's just the two arts I studied, at the time I studied them, had certain standards and if you waned promotion to learn more, you first had to meet the lower promotion's standards.
> 
> I also understand the idea that there may be people of higher age and lesser physical abilities who shame most other students with their steadfast devotion to their desire to learn, and understand they must work harder, and do so.  Do you hold them to the same standards in the context of running a business?
> 
> Things I am glad I don't have to deal with.


Agreed. I can't imagine there'd normally be much reason for me to start that transition (to including some subjective "contribution and effort" factors) earlier than maybe purple belt (which I expect to take 4 years or so). Where it makes sense to do so probably varies by curriculum organization and objective.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> my biggest problem is with the expectation people have, that if i put my time in i will get my black belt or my 5th black belt or 8th. we as a community over the years have established the expectation that rank is attainable by everyone.  so we have to live with the ramifications of that.   the converse side would be that most people do not achieve a certain level of rank.  which means as an instructor you have to explain to John Doe that the rank he has is probably going to be as high as he can go.. _ "sorry Johnny the rest of the class will be testing ..but frankly your not that good, and probably never will be"_
> which is the greater evil?


I think there's not a great answer in this. Part of making it better goes in explaining (before there's an issue) what rank "means". This is one of the reasons some folks like not having rank, and part of the reason I decided to just end ranks at BB (no dan ranks, in reality).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> im sure you had a good point but you lost me with the wording.  i am not sure what your trying to say.


He's talking about the "funny, useful, dislike" ratings.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think there's not a great answer in this. Part of making it better goes in explaining (before there's an issue) what rank "means". This is one of the reasons some folks like not having rank, and part of the reason I decided to just end ranks at BB (no dan ranks, in reality).



This goes back to my classical argument against the word Rank... and preference for the word Grade. it's also interesting that we give 8 dan rank, and you can receive after testing  titles like renshi, and shihan... but there are no stripes on the black belt. just a numbered certificate from the head of the organization for your dan grade.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> This goes back to my classical argument against the word Rank... and preference for the word Grade.


I don't see much of a difference. IME, they are used mostly interchangeably, except that "grading in an art" usually refers to earning a dan rank.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 26, 2018)

some put a lot of emphasis on rank politically


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## wab25 (Jun 26, 2018)

This reminded me of one of the guest instructors I was fortunate enough to take a few classes with. Bob Kunkel came out to one of our clinics, with his sensei. I got to take classes where each were teaching, and Bob showed up to take a class from another instructor at the clinic and I had the opportunity to work with him there as well. I don't have the challenges he has or that many of his students have... but he was still able to teach me quite a bit, in a very short time. 






Rank is about a lot of things. Dropping some guy on the street or in the ring are just two...


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> im sure you had a good point but you lost me with the wording.  i am not sure what your trying to say.



Sorry, I was trying to be clever.  I was referring to the ratings, as @gpseymour said.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 26, 2018)

wab25 said:


> This reminded me of one of the guest instructors I was fortunate enough to take a few classes with. Bob Kunkel came out to one of our clinics, with his sensei. I got to take classes where each were teaching, and Bob showed up to take a class from another instructor at the clinic and I had the opportunity to work with him there as well. I don't have the challenges he has or that many of his students have... but he was still able to teach me quite a bit, in a very short time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



damn it.   you made me cry hard.
Bob is a hero's hero.
a 10 dan if I ever saw one.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> some put a lot of emphasis on rank politically


How does that change if we use the term "grade"?


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## dvcochran (Jun 26, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> So then, should we be discussing and quantifying standards more?
> 
> That said, there is logic to your statement in bold type.


I am jumping in the middle of the conversation. This is very much where I was trying to go with my "common core" thread which was admittedly mis-titled. However, I would saying qualifying more that quantifying. If you quantify, is that the same as saying "it you do x move 10,000 times you are eligible to promote?


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## JR 137 (Jun 26, 2018)

I’m jumping in in the middle of the discussion too.  Regarding dan ranks and promotion due to a time table rather than a proficiency table, we’re talking about adults here, not kids, right?  If an adult doesn’t promote to the next dan rank when his/her peers do, so what?  Are adults really that fragile?  Will they leave because they haven’t been promoted in quite some time?  I’ve seen a few disgruntled yudansha who think they should be promoted to the next dan rank when it’s obvious they don’t know their current material well enough yet.  But in my experience those are the same ones that’ll complain about everything else too.  And the higher in dan rank you get, the less and less of those people are around.

We had a guy at my previous dojo who took about 7 or 8 years to promote to shodan when the norm was 4-5.  Why?  Because he couldn’t remember a standardized thing to save his life.  He definitely earned his shodan, as he finally met the standards. Then he started questioning why a group of guys tested for sandan (3rd dan) and passed, yet he was promoted to shodan before they were.  Easy - he still botched his shodan kata and standardized stuff 6 years later.  And he was botching kyu level stuff.  He was a great guy and a good fighter,  it he couldn’t meet all the standards, so he didn’t promote.  One day he had a closed door meeting with our sensei.  He aired his grievances, and my sensei stayed quiet and let him finish.  My sensei simply told him “do all your material without me having to correct you for 6 months straight, and you’ll test.”  The shodan told me “I needed to hear that.  I didn’t have a leg to stand on.”  He tested and passed 2 his nidan test years later.  No idea what became of him, as I left that dojo.  

At some point an adult needs to realize either shut up and train, or leave.  Kids are different, as IMO their involvement in MA has a completely different purpose.

End of rant.  Hopefully I didn’t misinterpret what was actually being discussed.


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## JR 137 (Jun 26, 2018)

Michele123 said:


> I’m following this with interest. As a hobby seamstress, what about a belt in a baseline. Color (white?) with pathways for threading smaller belts through the length of the belt. Effectively creating horizontal stripes. Depending on the thickness of the stripes, could maybe fit three on a belt. Top stripe could be striking, middle for grappling, bottom for sparring or that sort of thing. That way, one could level up in one area at a time.
> 
> it would still have to be no thicker than a normal belt after all the stripes were in. Stripes would have to be changed easily and quickly but not come out on their own. Now I want some time to go create a proof of concept...
> 
> ...


Use Velcro.  Not the cheap stuff, but the stuff the military uses for their patches.


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## TSDTexan (Jun 27, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’m jumping in in the middle of the discussion too.  Regarding dan ranks and promotion due to a time table rather than a proficiency table, we’re talking about adults here, not kids, right?  If an adult doesn’t promote to the next dan rank when his/her peers do, so what?  Are adults really that fragile?  Will they leave because they haven’t been promoted in quite some time?  I’ve seen a few disgruntled yudansha who think they should be promoted to the next dan rank when it’s obvious they don’t know their current material well enough yet.  But in my experience those are the same ones that’ll complain about everything else too.  And the higher in dan rank you get, the less and less of those people are around.
> 
> We had a guy at my previous dojo who took about 7 or 8 years to promote to shodan when the norm was 4-5.  Why?  Because he couldn’t remember a standardized thing to save his life.  He definitely earned his shodan, as he finally met the standards. Then he started questioning why a group of guys tested for sandan (3rd dan) and passed, yet he was promoted to shodan before they were.  Easy - he still botched his shodan kata and standardized stuff 6 years later.  And he was botching kyu level stuff.  He was a great guy and a good fighter,  it he couldn’t meet all the standards, so he didn’t promote.  One day he had a closed door meeting with our sensei.  He aired his grievances, and my sensei stayed quiet and let him finish.  My sensei simply told him “do all your material without me having to correct you for 6 months straight, and you’ll test.”  The shodan told me “I needed to hear that.  I didn’t have a leg to stand on.”  He tested and passed 2 his nidan test years later.  No idea what became of him, as I left that dojo.
> 
> ...



so much this!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 27, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I am jumping in the middle of the conversation. This is very much where I was trying to go with my "common core" thread which was admittedly mis-titled. However, I would saying qualifying more that quantifying. If you quantify, is that the same as saying "it you do x move 10,000 times you are eligible to promote?


I think he was saying more like, "If you do X to Y measurement level, you are eligible to promote."


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## skribs (Jun 27, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’m jumping in in the middle of the discussion too.  Regarding dan ranks and promotion due to a time table rather than a proficiency table, we’re talking about adults here, not kids, right?  If an adult doesn’t promote to the next dan rank when his/her peers do, so what?  Are adults really that fragile?  Will they leave because they haven’t been promoted in quite some time?  I’ve seen a few disgruntled yudansha who think they should be promoted to the next dan rank when it’s obvious they don’t know their current material well enough yet.  But in my experience those are the same ones that’ll complain about everything else too.  And the higher in dan rank you get, the less and less of those people are around.
> 
> We had a guy at my previous dojo who took about 7 or 8 years to promote to shodan when the norm was 4-5.  Why?  Because he couldn’t remember a standardized thing to save his life.  He definitely earned his shodan, as he finally met the standards. Then he started questioning why a group of guys tested for sandan (3rd dan) and passed, yet he was promoted to shodan before they were.  Easy - he still botched his shodan kata and standardized stuff 6 years later.  And he was botching kyu level stuff.  He was a great guy and a good fighter,  it he couldn’t meet all the standards, so he didn’t promote.  One day he had a closed door meeting with our sensei.  He aired his grievances, and my sensei stayed quiet and let him finish.  My sensei simply told him “do all your material without me having to correct you for 6 months straight, and you’ll test.”  The shodan told me “I needed to hear that.  I didn’t have a leg to stand on.”  He tested and passed 2 his nidan test years later.  No idea what became of him, as I left that dojo.
> 
> ...



We have several adults that go slower at my dojang, but they understand that they need more time to learn the material.  

We have others who have quit along the way, where the following situation happened.  Guy shows up to twice-weekly classes about 3 times a month on average.  Needs to learn defense drills 1-7 for his test, but constantly botches 1-3.  Gets close to a test and even though he's botching 1-3 still, the Master shows him 4-7 as well.  Then I get to listen to a rant after class for several minutes that it's the Master's fault that he doesn't know 4-7 and the master never showed him before.  Meanwhile I'm thinking "everyone else who has mastered 1-3 has been shown 4 & 5 right away."  But in this guy's mind he showed up to class every day and deserved to be shown everything.

On the other hand, we have some students that don't go as fast as humanly possible, but do good once they are ready.  It just takes them time to learn everything and to get it right consistently.  I don't have this in Taekwondo (I learn pretty quick what I need to for my tests in Taekwondo), but it is definitely an issue for me in Hapkido, which does not come naturally to me.  We have a student that started Taekwondo before me and we tested for yellow belt together.  We were both ready to test in June for my 3rd degree and his 1st degree (neither of us ended up testing due to injury).  He will make a fine first degree when he passes his test.

My mother went a bit slower than some people, but she did so because she wanted to be at her absolute best for each test.  She absolutely crushed every test.  Without giving too many details, let's just say she's a short, petite, old lady.  And yet most of the others at the dojang are afraid to spar her because of how aggressive she is.

But I think it's interesting, because when a school actually does this - requires you to know the material before testing - it does make the ranks mean something, at least in terms of what you should know for the curriculum.


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## geezer (Jun 27, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> ...We had a guy at my previous dojo who took about 7 or 8 years to promote to shodan when the norm was 4-5.  Why?  Because he couldn’t remember a standardized thing to save his life.  He definitely earned his shodan, as he finally met the standards. Then he started questioning why a group of guys tested for sandan (3rd dan) and passed, yet he was promoted to shodan before they were.  Easy - he still botched his shodan kata and standardized stuff 6 years later.



That's a lot like me! ...now the rant:

The organization I now belong to has probably tripled the number of rote two-man sequences used in its training curriculum since I began training the style. Unfortunately,_ rote memorization has never worked well for me_. My last rank promotion was back about '86 in our old association, then I took time off in the 90s. I came back to the art in 2007 and have been operating a branch for the _new_ organization since 2009 ...And in over ten years back at it I have never been able to memorize enough of the intricate two-man sets to get another promotion. Although, there may be more to it than that, as another former training partner of mine got promoted twice, reaching "master level" without being able to do the new stuff any better than I. Even he said so, and has since retired.

Part of the problem is that I run a branch in a separate state and have nobody within 1,000 miles to practice this material with. Worse, this precious advanced material is so _magical and secret_ that it can't be shared on video, all notes must be kept private, and sequences can't be practiced with lower ranking instructors. So, when I do see my instructor a couple times a year, he goes over yet another complicated two-man sequence, demanding near perfection, then I fly home and am supposed to practice secretly _in the air._ Chi-sau in the air? Hogwash! 

Honestly, I've never really cared about rank and certificates, but on the other hand, _improvement_ is important to me. If the teaching method simply isn't working for me, perhaps I'd be better off working with a different group. You know, doing more sparring and stuff that makes sense to me.

I plan to have a heart to heart discussion with my instructor when I next go to train with him  in a few weeks ...while spending another couple grand on travel and training. At my age I don't expect to get any more effective at fighting, but if I can't learn material effectively under the current system, perhaps it's best to move on. 

BTW, I was the guy that coached my current instructor for _his_ instructor test back in the late 80's when he was _my junior._ So I have been at this for a while. Maybe I just have to accept that I'm stupider than I look. And if you've seen what I look like, that's a scary thought!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 27, 2018)

skribs said:


> We have several adults that go slower at my dojang, but they understand that they need more time to learn the material.
> 
> We have others who have quit along the way, where the following situation happened.  Guy shows up to twice-weekly classes about 3 times a month on average.  Needs to learn defense drills 1-7 for his test, but constantly botches 1-3.  Gets close to a test and even though he's botching 1-3 still, the Master shows him 4-7 as well.  Then I get to listen to a rant after class for several minutes that it's the Master's fault that he doesn't know 4-7 and the master never showed him before.  Meanwhile I'm thinking "everyone else who has mastered 1-3 has been shown 4 & 5 right away."  But in this guy's mind he showed up to class every day and deserved to be shown everything.
> 
> ...


I was looking back at my promotion list over the weekend (when someone gets a dan rank in the NGAA, they get a list of all their promotions up to that point). I spent a LOOOONG time at some ranks. I spent almost 3 years at one colored belt. Some folks must've passed me along the way, but by the time I was BB, there was nobody ahead of me who didn't start before me. How does that happen? I was definitely on a slow-moving mule train to BB, but I never quit. I think most folks who take longer to reach a given point (for whatever reason - mine was at least partly my business schedule at times) understand what's slowing them down.


----------



## pdg (Jun 27, 2018)

Michele123 said:


> I have no idea how I’d go about creating a patent nor if my idea is even any good.



Don't bother with patent.

The best you could hope to get granted is a design patent, rather than a full patent.

And then, any patent is only as good as the lawyers you can afford to pay to defend it.

For instance, you get a design patent on this belt idea and I copy it.

First, you have to discover that I'm copying it, then you have to commence legal action to get me to stop (or get awarded damages).

That's an expensive process, it takes a long time and if my lawyers are better then you'll lose and have to pay my fees too.

If you find out I'm copying it and don't defend, well the whole patent process became an expensive pointless exercise anyway.

Also, if my belts are a different length, or thickness, or colour scheme, or material then I'm probably not infringing the patent anyway...

And what will you do about the Chinese factory that starts pumping them out? I can tell you, nothing. Precisely zero. If companies like Honda can't stop the knock offs, neither can you (Honda simply subcontracted to a few of the companies to reduce their supply costs, and trade on having better quality than the fakes).

People like the idea of a patent, and the idea gets suggested a lot - but in reality it's useless by itself, you need major financial backing to warrant having one at all.

If you want to make them, make them. It could be a nice little specialised sideline. Maybe having the 'prior art' of discussing the idea in this thread will mean the more moral belt manufacturers might pick it up and pay you.

Maybe they won't...


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> Don't bother with patent.
> 
> The best you could hope to get granted is a design patent, rather than a full patent.
> 
> ...



there is this word i like ...hogwash...i would apply it here.
some of what you say is true.  remember the velcro wallet?  well one of the mistakes made was it didnt have a patent. sure enough the Chinese started pumping them out and since it was an International issue it cost more to fight it then it was worth and it didnt stop the imposters.  but that is not the reason for protecting the idea.  you really want the patent and the intellectual property rights for two major reasons.  if you plan on producing the item what you dont want to happen is have someone like Century MA see the design, look for a patent, see there is none, then patent it themselves thus sending you a  cease and desist letter. you will no longer own your own idea and product.  second case is Century MA sees the design, looks for a patent sees that there is one (that you own)  and your phone rings offering you a good chunk of money for you to sell them the intellectual property rights so they can produce it.  the key is to own the idea so you can sell it, otherwise they will steal it from you and you get nothing.  now if you negotiate well with Century then you can get some cash and STILL  produce your product just the same as you were before.  this is the number one rule of business ,,,own it.  ever watch "shark tank" on TV?   they wont invest in a company if it doesnt have property rights.   so if your looking for some financial backing because the belts are selling like hot cakes and you need some capital ,,,,well you gotta own the product before anyone will invest with you.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 28, 2018)

geezer said:


> That's a lot like me! ...now the rant:
> 
> The organization I now belong to has probably tripled the number of rote two-man sequences used in its training curriculum since I began training the style. Unfortunately,_ rote memorization has never worked well for me_. My last rank promotion was back about '86 in our old association, then I took time off in the 90s. I came back to the art in 2007 and have been operating a branch for the _new_ organization since 2009 ...And in over ten years back at it I have never been able to memorize enough of the intricate two-man sets to get another promotion. Although, there may be more to it than that, as another former training partner of mine got promoted twice, reaching "master level" without being able to do the new stuff any better than I. Even he said so, and has since retired.
> 
> ...



In the interests of maintaining site civility, I will refrain from expressing my full opinion of someone who takes the approach your instructor is taking and the likely reasons for it.

I will say that:

I consider memorization to be pointless basis for tests and ranks. By the time you've done a form or two person set or other exercise enough to extract usable value from it, you should be way past the memorization stage.

Showing someone a two-person set and then forbidding them from sharing it with a training partner so that they can practice it is a teaching fail of epic proportions.

"Secret" techniques and sets are absolutely pointless except for maintaining control over students and cultivating a cult mentality. Unless you are talking about something like the procedures for operating a nuclear submarine, there is no value to keeping such secrets. Anyway, if your moves or sequences have solid real world application, then someone else outside your organization has almost certainly figured them out anyway.

Learning new techniques is fun, but the real value comes in learning how to do what you already do better. I've been training BJJ for around 20 years and I'm busy right now working on techniques I was shown in my first 6 months of training and learning how to apply them more effectively. If your instructor can't help you do that, then you may want to look for a better instructor.


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## geezer (Jun 28, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If your instructor can't help you do that, then you may want to look for a better instructor.



Thanks for the support Tony. I often share your perspective. I was a little worked up when I went on that rant. Of course there are two sides to every issue, and I perhaps failed to point out that 1. the guy I train under does have great technical skill in his art, and 2. we've known each other for ages and I do consider him a friend. I will be training privately with him in a few weeks.

After that, if I can't figure out a way to progress under his tutelage, I may just switch my emphasis back to my _Escrima_ training, ...and maybe take the time to enroll in the Gracie JJ school down the road. Life is too short to waste time if something's not working.


----------



## pdg (Jun 28, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> there is this word i like ...hogwash...i would apply it here.
> some of what you say is true.  remember the velcro wallet?  well one of the mistakes made was it didnt have a patent. sure enough the Chinese started pumping them out and since it was an International issue it cost more to fight it then it was worth and it didnt stop the imposters.  but that is not the reason for protecting the idea.  you really want the patent and the intellectual property rights for two major reasons.  if you plan on producing the item what you dont want to happen is have someone like Century MA see the design, look for a patent, see there is none, then patent it themselves thus sending you a  cease and desist letter. you will no longer own your own idea and product.  second case is Century MA sees the design, looks for a patent sees that there is one (that you own)  and your phone rings offering you a good chunk of money for you to sell them the intellectual property rights so they can produce it.  the key is to own the idea so you can sell it, otherwise they will steal it from you and you get nothing.  now if you negotiate well with Century then you can get some cash and STILL  produce your product just the same as you were before.  this is the number one rule of business ,,,own it.  ever watch "shark tank" on TV?   they wont invest in a company if it doesnt have property rights.   so if your looking for some financial backing because the belts are selling like hot cakes and you need some capital ,,,,well you gotta own the product before anyone will invest with you.



Well, yes and no...

There is evidence of prior art (the description in this thread, dated and uneditable without leaving a trail). This is also known as intellectual property ownership.

This would mean that if another company tries to get a design patent you can have it revoked.

They send a cease and desist letter, you contact the patent office with your prior art, they lose - and if the US patent system is anything like here they'll not be impressed either.

Quite honestly, unless you've got a full patent (which isn't going to happen with a belt) and a boatload of money to defend it then prior art is just as good.

If it was a truly novel solution, then a full patent may be granted, but really, it's a belt.

Of course, then there's the thing where a US patent may or may not apply or be enforceable anywhere else in the world...

Oh, and an international incident costing too much to fight against a Chinese company is really never what happens.

What happens is the Chinese government say "la la la I can't hear you" and they carry on like nothing happened. They honestly just don't give two figs about patent infringement in the slightest - I mean, what exactly is going to happen? No country is going to cease trade with the largest manufacturing base on the planet over some knockoffs.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 28, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In the interests of maintaining site civility, I will refrain from expressing my full opinion of someone who takes the approach your instructor is taking and the likely reasons for it.
> 
> I will say that:
> 
> ...





geezer said:


> Thanks for the support Tony. I often share your perspective. I was a little worked up when I went on that rant. Of course there are two sides to every issue, and I perhaps failed to point out that 1. the guy I train under does have great technical skill in his art, and 2. we've known each other for ages and I do consider him a friend. I will be training privately with him in a few weeks.
> 
> After that, if I can't figure out a way to progress under his tutelage, I may just switch my emphasis back to my _Escrima_ training, ...and maybe take the time to enroll in the Gracie JJ school down the road. Life is too short to waste time if something's not working.



i would point out that memorization of stuff like kata and 2 person sets is held in a section of the brain that turns off and that has no applicable function when it comes to self defense situations when under duress.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 2, 2018)

skribs said:


> We have several adults that go slower at my dojang, but they understand that they need more time to learn the material.
> 
> We have others who have quit along the way, where the following situation happened.  Guy shows up to twice-weekly classes about 3 times a month on average.  Needs to learn defense drills 1-7 for his test, but constantly botches 1-3.  Gets close to a test and even though he's botching 1-3 still, the Master shows him 4-7 as well.  Then I get to listen to a rant after class for several minutes that it's the Master's fault that he doesn't know 4-7 and the master never showed him before.  Meanwhile I'm thinking "everyone else who has mastered 1-3 has been shown 4 & 5 right away."  But in this guy's mind he showed up to class every day and deserved to be shown everything.
> 
> ...



When I began studying Hapkido I doubt anybody could have appeared less coordinated.  Stay with it and one day you should notice that certain things just seem natural, or seem to fit so easily with other things.  You will also see things right away that you used to need demonstrated several times. That was a neat thing for me when I noticed it.

Your mother must be a really neat lady.  More students like her are needed in dojangs.

I absolutely agree that things that are not given away mean so much more when finally earned.  Those of the 'entitlement' generation who never learn that, will never know the satisfaction of achieving tough goals.  They are often the quickest to complain when they don't get their 'entitlement.'


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## skribs (Jul 2, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Kids are different, as IMO their involvement in MA has a completely different purpose.



I'd be interested in a thread on this subject.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 2, 2018)

geezer said:


> That's a lot like me! ...now the rant:
> 
> The organization I now belong to has probably tripled the number of rote two-man sequences used in its training curriculum since I began training the style. Unfortunately,_ rote memorization has never worked well for me_. My last rank promotion was back about '86 in our old association, then I took time off in the 90s. I came back to the art in 2007 and have been operating a branch for the _new_ organization since 2009 ...And in over ten years back at it I have never been able to memorize enough of the intricate two-man sets to get another promotion. Although, there may be more to it than that, as another former training partner of mine got promoted twice, reaching "master level" without being able to do the new stuff any better than I. Even he said so, and has since retired.
> 
> ...



I hope the bolded was said tongue-and-cheek.

Chi-sau in the air is hogwash?  Really, I think you need to talk with George Dillman.


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## skribs (Jul 2, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I hope the bolded was said tongue-and-cheek.
> 
> Chi-sau in the air is hogwash?  Really, I think you need to talk with George Dillman.



(Keep in mind I don't know what I'm talking about here, besides a quick look at what Chi-sau is).  It is easily possible to practice the moves in the air.  It's impossible to learn to read an enemy when there is no enemy to read.

This is why I find my Taekwondo tests so easy, but sparring difficult and Hapkido incredibly difficult.  I am good with the rote memorization of the technique.  I am a bit slow on the draw in reacting to what my opponent does.  Memorizing forms, learning the techniques and coordinating my body to the more acrobatic kicks is fairly easy for me.  Reading my opponent's energy is hard, and not exactly something I can practice on my own.

I don't know if I've said it in this thread, but my Master is concerned about the copyright of the curriculum at our school.  So he wants to be careful about how information is released.  There's also the fact that lower level students might be overwhelmed by advanced techniques, or else advanced details of basic techniques.  And I think some of our techniques are kept until later simply as an incentive to continue.

But if you truly have no partner, there should be a waiver of some sort that you can get one person to help you practice, at the very least.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 2, 2018)

skribs said:


> (Keep in mind I don't know what I'm talking about here, besides a quick look at what Chi-sau is).  It is easily possible to practice the moves in the air.  It's impossible to learn to read an enemy when there is no enemy to read.



Can't fault that.



skribs said:


> This is why I find my Taekwondo tests so easy, but sparring difficult and Hapkido incredibly difficult.  I am good with the rote memorization of the technique.  I am a bit slow on the draw in reacting to what my opponent does.  Memorizing forms, learning the techniques and coordinating my body to the more acrobatic kicks is fairly easy for me.  Reading my opponent's energy is hard, and not exactly something I can practice on my own.



I can only tell you what seemed to help me.  I tried to react only, with some primitive part of my brain in charge of selecting my reaction.  If I tried to think, too often I was unsure and late.

That should work in TKD sparring as well.  There are observations that can help recognize a likely type of attack, such as feet placement, balance, eyes, but again, after learning those, teach them to that primitive part of your brain.  And in Hapkido of course, since we so often move into an attack, our attacker is often nonplussed to the point of pulling an attack, but too late.



skribs said:


> I don't know if I've said it in this thread, but my Master is concerned about the copyright of the curriculum at our school.  So he wants to be careful about how information is released.  There's also the fact that lower level students might be overwhelmed by advanced techniques, or else advanced details of basic techniques.  And I think some of our techniques are kept until later simply as an incentive to continue.



I can sort of understand that I guess.  But in the Hapkido I studied, what we were given was more of a memory jogger than a detailed description of a technique.  I think that is why there are seldom any comments to techniques I try to describe.  People just don't get it.  But when you are taught it and then practice it, memory joggers can overcome some memory disconnects in how to do the technique.  If you have something different, then maybe I can understand part of your instructor's concern.  But most of the techniques I was taught simply cannot be learned from reading memory joggers.



skribs said:


> But if you truly have no partner, there should be a waiver of some sort that you can get one person to help you practice, at the very least.



Sure that.  Especially a more senior person under you who could reasonably be expected to continuing his studies with you.


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## skribs (Jul 2, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I can sort of understand that I guess. But in the Hapkido I studied, what we were given was more of a memory jogger than a detailed description of a technique. I think that is why there are seldom any comments to techniques I try to describe. People just don't get it. But when you are taught it and then practice it, memory joggers can overcome some memory disconnects in how to do the technique. If you have something different, then maybe I can understand part of your instructor's concern. But most of the techniques I was taught simply cannot be learned from reading memory joggers.



It's not a lack of memory with the technique.  It's about reading the direction of my enemy's power, or properly finding the pressure points.  I have no problem remembering what the techniques themselves are.  It's applying them I have trouble with.


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## Balrog (Jul 26, 2018)

Danny T said:


> How do you go about finding out about a carpenter or a mason? Due diligence.
> How do you go about finding out about a babysitter or a house sitter? Due diligence.
> How do you go about finding out about an HAVC technician? Due diligence.
> How do you go about finding out about a vehicle repair technician? Due diligence.
> ...


Agreed, 100%.  This is why I give prospects a month free instruction.  It gives them time to get their feet wet, so to speak, and make an *informed* decision whether to train in our school.


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## marques (Jul 30, 2018)

I have just discovered that in Portugal ALL instructors are going to need a certification (mandatory) and ONE organisation (or group of), per discipline, will be in charge of training the trainers and issuing the certificates. This ONE is chosen by a gov. dep. (IPDJ).

I can’t see it going into practice and I would hate to buy training and certification at the competitors.

Just another way of credentialing. But a good one??


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 30, 2018)

marques said:


> I have just discovered that in Portugal ALL instructors are going to need a certification (mandatory) and ONE organisation (or group of), per discipline, will be in charge of training the trainers and issuing the certificates. This ONE is chosen by a gov. dep. (IPDJ).
> 
> I can’t see it going into practice and I would hate to buy training and certification at the competitors.
> 
> Just another way of credentialing. But a good one??


So, some existing group is being selected in each discipline, and will be responsible for credentialing other branches of the same discipline?? Would that mean one (presumably the largest) Karate organization in Portugal would be responsible for credentialing others? Perhaps Shotokan will be credentialing Goju-ryu?


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 30, 2018)

marques said:


> I have just discovered that in Portugal ALL instructors are going to need a certification (mandatory) and ONE organisation (or group of), per discipline, will be in charge of training the trainers and issuing the certificates. This ONE is chosen by a gov. dep. (IPDJ).
> 
> I can’t see it going into practice and I would hate to buy training and certification at the competitors.
> 
> Just another way of credentialing. But a good one??


Seems like a recipe for disaster.  Politics written all over it.  

To the unknowing, it seems like a great idea.  To the knowing, it just seems like more bad will come out of that than good.  I understand and agree with making sure people have stuff like first aid, CPR, emergency action plans, child abuse and reporting regulations, and stuff like that.  But there shouldn’t be anyone telling what a teacher can teach and how.  I can see people targeting groups/organizations outside their own to corner the market.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 30, 2018)

marques said:


> I have just discovered that in Portugal ALL instructors are going to need a certification (mandatory) and ONE organisation (or group of), per discipline, will be in charge of training the trainers and issuing the certificates. This ONE is chosen by a gov. dep. (IPDJ).
> 
> I can’t see it going into practice and I would hate to buy training and certification at the competitors.
> 
> Just another way of credentialing. But a good one??


It should be interesting to follow. I am curious just how much the government will get involved. I would like to understand how they even got organized enough to create the mandate.


----------



## marques (Jul 31, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> So, some existing group is being selected in each discipline, and will be responsible for credentialing other branches of the same discipline?? Would that mean one (presumably the largest) Karate organization in Portugal would be responsible for credentialing others? Perhaps Shotokan will be credentialing Goju-ryu?


Asked myself the same question. It looks like one ‘shotokan’ organisation will dominate the other ‘shotokan’ only. There is already Shorinji Kempo and Lohan Tao (Kempo) on the list, so...

Which means everyone can get a name not yet on the list*, fulfil the requirements and monopolise this name/style?

*Página do IPDJ, I.P.


----------



## marques (Jul 31, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Seems like a recipe for disaster.  Politics written all over it.
> 
> To the unknowing, it seems like a great idea.  To the knowing, it just seems like more bad will come out of that than good.  I understand and agree with making sure people have stuff like first aid, CPR, emergency action plans, child abuse and reporting regulations, and stuff like that.  But there shouldn’t be anyone telling what a teacher can teach and how.  I can see people targeting groups/organizations outside their own to corner the market.


I still need to dig out a bit more, but I still did not find anything really specific to a style. If it is to cover ‘only’ pedogogy, physiology, ethics, nutrition, training planification... as I have found*, it could be very much the same programme to every one, given by an (or many) independent organisation(s). Basically, it is sport science. Will see where it goes...

*http://www.idesporto.pt/ficheiros/file/PNFT/FormcomplementarDC/RegFComplementar_DC-AMv2.pdf


----------



## marques (Jul 31, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> It should be interesting to follow. I am curious just how much the government will get involved. I would like to understand how they even got organized enough to create the mandate.


Basically, they set up requirements based on the size and credentials of the organisation: history, number and distribution of clubs, international recognition and number of instructors. The ‘best’ wins the monopoly.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2018)

marques said:


> Asked myself the same question. It looks like one ‘shotokan’ organisation will dominate the other ‘shotokan’ only. There is already Shorinji Kempo and Lohan Tao (Kempo) on the list, so...
> 
> Which means everyone can get a name not yet on the list*, fulfil the requirements and monopolise this name/style?
> 
> *Página do IPDJ, I.P.


That, at least, isn't as bad as it might have been. Since all someone has to do is declare a new style, I'm not sure it actually has any teeth, at all.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 31, 2018)

marques said:


> Basically, they set up requirements based on the size and credentials of the organisation: history, number and distribution of clubs, international recognition and number of instructors. The ‘best’ wins the monopoly.


Yes, sounds like a good ole boys network and may make it tougher for the smaller schools.


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## marques (Jul 31, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That, at least, isn't as bad as it might have been. Since all someone has to do is declare a new style, I'm not sure it actually has any teeth, at all.


Agree.

But now imagine a different scenario. One organisation get the monopoly if ‘krav maga’, and there are 10 or more organisations teaching this. The leader of this organisation has been insulting any other org since ever and technically is a laugh.

Now everyone else needs to change name? Or must go to get the training and certs from the mean people? Could they still have Krav Maga as part of their new name and certify themselves? Or is it burocracy only and everything is going to be about the same?

It can become ugly...


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 31, 2018)

marques said:


> Asked myself the same question. It looks like one ‘shotokan’ organisation will dominate the other ‘shotokan’ only. There is already Shorinji Kempo and Lohan Tao (Kempo) on the list, so...
> 
> Which means everyone can get a name not yet on the list*, fulfil the requirements and monopolise this name/style?
> 
> *Página do IPDJ, I.P.


It sounds impossible to include all styles under a given umbrella let alone getting everyone to want to play along. Are there fines and levy's for not conforming.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2018)

marques said:


> Agree.
> 
> But now imagine a different scenario. One organisation get the monopoly if ‘krav maga’, and there are 10 or more organisations teaching this. The leader of this organisation has been insulting any other org since ever and technically is a laugh.
> 
> ...


Agreed - where the name matters for marketing (Krav Maga, BJJ, Muay Thai come to mind), this could be a problem. For those of us in more obscure arts, we have little to fear.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 31, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed - where the name matters for marketing (Krav Maga, BJJ, Muay Thai come to mind), this could be a problem. For those of us in more obscure arts, we have little to fear.


I see your point. But what if the government actually tries to apply fines or levy's for non compliance?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I see your point. But what if the government actually tries to apply fines or levy's for non compliance?


Since all you have to do is claim a name (or so it appears), compliance would be pretty easy. If NGA wasn't already taken (and it wouldn't be - no dojos in Portugal), I could just claim that name. If it was, I could claim Shojin-ryu. Or just make a new name and claim that. 

Or, if nobody else had claimed it, I could be a jerk and try to claim Aikido, then charge a nominal fee to certify Aikido instructors - there's a few of those in Portugal.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 31, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Since all you have to do is claim a name (or so it appears), compliance would be pretty easy. If NGA wasn't already taken (and it wouldn't be - no dojos in Portugal), I could just claim that name. If it was, I could claim Shojin-ryu. Or just make a new name and claim that.
> 
> Or, if nobody else had claimed it, I could be a jerk and try to claim Aikido, then charge a nominal fee to certify Aikido instructors - there's a few of those in Portugal.


Assuming they are not trying to centralize the Arts into a pre-selected group of styles. If that is the case, which is what I understood, NGA would be under another umbrella. Would you comply? I would have to weigh the repercussions very hard.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Assuming they are not trying to centralize the Arts into a pre-selected group of styles. If that is the case, which is what I understood, NGA would be under another umbrella. Would you comply? I would have to weigh the repercussions very hard.


If they tried to put it under Aikido, I don't think there's any way I _could _comply. No Aikido organization is likely to grant credentials to anyone from NGA unless we lied about our lineage. If they put us in a "Japanese Jujutsu" group, it wouldn't be any worse than anyone else's situation.

Would I comply? Depends what it takes to comply, what the benefit is of compliance, and what the penalty would be for not doing so. But then, that's my question about complying with almost any rule.


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