# Walmart Steals Your Cart Because You Won't Let Them Check Your Receipt



## Bob Hubbard (Feb 25, 2009)

* Walmart Steals Your Cart Because You Won't Let Them Check Your Receipt *

 Lisa says a Walmart greeter grabbed onto her cart and and wouldn't let her leave because she refused to let the greeter check her receipt. That, my friends, is not legal. Sure, it would make life a lot easier if people just acquiesced to the receipt-checking, but it's not the law. It is against the law, however, to unlawfully detain a customer. Here's Lisa's account: More *»*


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## Carol (Feb 25, 2009)

Bizarre.  I'm just pissed at my local Wal-Mart because they are about to go from 24 hour operation to closing at midnight every night.  This means the only retailers open when I leave work are a couple of tiny convenience stores and a Walgreens.


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## MBuzzy (Feb 25, 2009)

Doesn't matter, it isn't like they actually look.  They've been checking carts at our wal-mart and Sam's club as long as I've been going there and NOT ONCE have they actually looked at anything.  They take a highlighter, cross off the receipt and let you go.  Shows what happens when your workers don't care.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 25, 2009)

I asked the door ding at a BJ's why they were looking at receipts.  She said to verify the counts match. So, I asked, "How many items in the cart?".  I got a blank stare, and she started to reach for my receipt. I said, "No, how many items are in there?"  This was a hugely piled cart i might add. No way you can count without emptying it.   Short version, manager comes over and wants to know the hold up. I said,  "She's having difficulty counting".  So I was told to just show the reciept and go.  I folded it over twice, and held it so it wouldn't open so she could punch her little hole in it, and left.


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## Carol (Feb 25, 2009)

I've only had my receipt checked at BJs.  I've never had it checked at a Walmart.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 25, 2009)

I got stopped at a KMart.  I told the individual that I wouldn't be returning.  Haven't.


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## Thesemindz (Feb 25, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> I've only had my receipt checked at BJs. I've never had it checked at a Walmart.


 

At my local walmart they only check your receipt if you don't have a cart, like if you're just "free hand" carrying items out of the store. If you have a cart they don't check.

I know because they were checking some teenagers receipts one day and I noticed they just waved adults through, so I challenged them and asked why they were profiling teens. That was the reasoning I was presented with.

I'm ok with it. If I don't like it, I don't have to shop there.


-Rob


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## arnisador (Feb 25, 2009)

After they give you the receipt for having given them the money...it's yours, right? I suppose all they could do is ban you from returning to the store?


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 25, 2009)

Legally, once you pay for it, it is yours. That includes them no longer having any legal right to take your property to deactivate that anti-theft tag the cashier failed to hit with the magnet.  Door buzzer goes off, I keep walking. Slowly. They touch me, I'm filing for assault...then 'm buyin more ram for the server.


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## tellner (Feb 25, 2009)

At Fry's they actually check every item.


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## shesulsa (Feb 26, 2009)

Costco gives a quick visual check. I thought it was bunk too but one of the door checkers actually found an error on my receipt in my favor - was rung for two of an item when I only purchased one.  Got my refund in cash within 5 minutes.

I've never actually been stopped at Walmart except for having a large item in the cart available outside the registers near the doors - she looked for that item on the receipt; also when I set the buzzers off, I voluntarily stop ... now THAT guy DID go through every item in my cart.


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## harlan (Feb 26, 2009)

Just a small aside: the Walmart where I work last year was missing almost $250,000 in merchandise. 'Shrinkage' is the euphimism...for theft. Quarter of a million dollars of merchandise missing...from ONE store.

The problem with Walmart...is the management. Not unskilled, underpaid door 'greeter', or whatever current boob may be listed as 'manager' at your local Wal-Mart...but the management centered at Bentenville, Arkansas.


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## Steve (Feb 26, 2009)

harlan said:


> Just a small aside: the Walmart where I work last year was missing almost $250,000 in merchandise. 'Shrinkage' is the euphimism...for theft. Quarter of a million dollars of merchandise missing...from ONE store.
> 
> The problem with Walmart...is the management. Not unskilled, underpaid door 'greeter', or whatever current boob may be listed as 'manager' at your local Wal-Mart...but the management centered at Bentenville, Arkansas.


I can't speak to the quality of the management, but large scale theft hits everyone hard.  It's big business.  From baby formula to glasses frames to toothbrushes, entire shelves are cleared.  

For anyone interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_retail_crime

Checking receipts does help keep entire carts full of merchandise from walking out the door.


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## Kreth (Feb 26, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Checking receipts does help keep entire carts full of merchandise from walking out the door.


It's understandable. The fact that they profile is annoying though. I can stop at Wal-Mart on my way home from work, dressed in business casual, and they wave me by and tell me to have a nice day. But if I stop there on a weekend, wearing jeans and a concert T, with visible tattoos, I get stopped every time. 
The loss prevention guys are just as bad. I posted in another thread about some of the fun I have with them.


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## clfsean (Feb 26, 2009)

Kreth said:


> It's understandable. The fact that they profile is annoying though. I can stop at Wal-Mart on my way home from work, dressed in business casual, and they wave me by and tell me to have a nice day. But if I stop there on a weekend, wearing jeans and a concert T, with visible tattoos, I get stopped every time.
> The loss prevention guys are just as bad. I posted in another thread about some of the fun I have with them.




Same here except I don't get stopped... unless the wife & kids are with me. If it's just me, I never get checked for anything.


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## jks9199 (Feb 26, 2009)

harlan said:


> Just a small aside: the Walmart where I work last year was missing almost $250,000 in merchandise. 'Shrinkage' is the euphimism...for theft. Quarter of a million dollars of merchandise missing...from ONE store.
> 
> The problem with Walmart...is the management. Not unskilled, underpaid door 'greeter', or whatever current boob may be listed as 'manager' at your local Wal-Mart...but the management centered at Bentenville, Arkansas.


Not exactly...

Retail shrink is the total loss in inventory from what's supposed to be there on the records.  There are many causes; outside theft is only one of them.  (And, depending on who you ask, not even the largest!)  Other factors include inventory errors, like receiving 1 box of an item, when each individual item was supposed to be counted, improperly documented store use conversion (grabbing a roll of tape or whatever for legitimate in-store use that's not credited properly), employee theft (everything from misuse of employee discounts, false tagging, failure to ring up items for friends, to outright theft by walking merchandise out the door), and other factors.

Which is why the "checkers" at the doors piss me off.  Do it right, and I don't have a problem... but too many are insulting or random in how they do their job.  And that doesn't help...


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## jks9199 (Feb 26, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Bizarre.  I'm just pissed at my local Wal-Mart because they are about to go from 24 hour operation to closing at midnight every night.  This means the only retailers open when I leave work are a couple of tiny convenience stores and a Walgreens.


Lots of places are cutting back 24 hour operations...  I don't know that it's really going to save much money, because most of them actually have overnight crews working anyway...  I'd keep the doors open (reasonable security permitting, of course) and have someone able to run the register because even a few sales offset some of the cost of the night crew, to me...


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## harlan (Feb 26, 2009)

Yes, you are correct.

But as an employee, the atmosphere we operate in is one where theft is the aspect that is constantly in the foreground. The other aspects, such as inventory procedures, depend on management. Train, and retrain. The old Sam Walton slogan, 'Value your employees...' has become nothing more than lip service. Security suggestions from the floor/salespeople...go nowhere. For an example, 6 laptops walked out the lawn and garden door from a ring in one theft. The door had been left unmanned. Why? Because management cuts back on floor coverage (=payroll) in the search for constant 'profit'.



jks9199 said:


> Not exactly...
> 
> Retail shrink is the total loss in inventory from what's supposed to be there on the records. There are many causes; outside theft is only one of them. (And, depending on who you ask, not even the largest!) Other factors include inventory errors, like receiving 1 box of an item, when each individual item was supposed to be counted, improperly documented store use conversion (grabbing a roll of tape or whatever for legitimate in-store use that's not credited properly), employee theft (everything from misuse of employee discounts, false tagging, failure to ring up items for friends, to outright theft by walking merchandise out the door), and other factors.
> 
> Which is why the "checkers" at the doors piss me off. Do it right, and I don't have a problem... but too many are insulting or random in how they do their job. And that doesn't help...


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## Archangel M (Feb 26, 2009)

If there weren't so many thieving losers out there there wouldn't be such a big issue.

I really don't know what these stores are willing to do if you refuse to show your receipt. I would think that the options are..let you go or return your money and bar you from the store (which they can do as a private property) depending on policy.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 26, 2009)

Circuit City's called the cops a few times.  Best Buy's done it as well.


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## arnisador (Feb 26, 2009)

And...?


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 26, 2009)

9. Circuit City Customer Arrested After Refusing To Show Receipt _Michael writes, "I've always taken the stance that retail stores shouldn't treat their loyal customers as criminals and that customers shouldn't so willingly give up their rights along with their money."

_7. Circuit City Calls The Cops On Customer Who Tried To Redeem $40 DTV Coupon _Circuit City wouldn't let Larry redeem his $40 digital transition converter box coupon unless he signed a credit slip agreeing to pay $40. Larry refused, and asked to cancel the transaction.


http://consumerist.com/5133016/consumerists-top-10-circuit-city-stories-of-all-time
_


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 26, 2009)

* Best Buy Calls Cops On You For Telling Fellow Customer Jawbone Headset Is Overpriced, Sucks *

  			 				Best Buy called the cops on Alex because he told another shopper that the Jawbone headset he was considering was poor quality and marked up $30 from the manufacturer's price. Alex went to Best Buy to purchase a new Bluetooth headset because the... 			
3:03 PM on Thu Mar 27 2008,

* Best Buy Calls 911 On Customer Asking For Refund *

  			 				Best Buy calls 911 after Consumerist reader RJH asks for a refund on a nonworking Tony Bennet CD. 			
7:24 PM on Fri Dec 29 2006,


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## Flea (Feb 26, 2009)

After being bullied at a few big boxes, I categorically boycott ALL businesses that check receipts.  It's not hard, since I go out of my way to patronize small local businesses anyway.  The last time I had no choice but to Wal-, I muscled my way past the poor little old lady who meekly asked ... I made direct eye contact with a curt "I'm not a criminal."  She backed off and that was that.

It wasn't personal to her of course, but I just won't be treated that way by someone I just gave money to.  Regardless of whether it's an individual or a corporation.


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## Carol (Feb 26, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Lots of places are cutting back 24 hour operations...  I don't know that it's really going to save much money, because most of them actually have overnight crews working anyway...  I'd keep the doors open (reasonable security permitting, of course) and have someone able to run the register because even a few sales offset some of the cost of the night crew, to me...



Not much crime here that's for sure.  According to Forbes:

Metro Area Population: 420,000  

    RANK






  Crime Rate     *1

*There's just no love for us shift workers, I'm tellin' ya!


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## Archangel M (Feb 26, 2009)

If I were the responding officer I would tell the store manager the options as I saw them:

-The customer shows the receipt and leaves

-The store lets the person go

-The store returns the customers money and takes back its property

-The store then has the option of trespass baring the customer and he/she is told that they are not welcome if they refuse to follow store policy.

Any way you slice it I'm leaving it in the stores lap. Either way I think the store is loosing a customer.


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## arnisador (Feb 26, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> -The store returns the customers money and takes back its property



But after it's been paid for and a receipt has been issued, is it still in any way the _store_'s property? If so, when does it legally become the _customer'_s property?



> The store then has the option of trespass baring the customer and he/she is told that they are not welcome if they refuse to follow store policy.



Yes, and I'm guessing this would be the outcome.


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## harlan (Feb 26, 2009)

I blame this on corporate greed, a distancing of management from actual sales (and subsequent loss of people skills/face-to-face relations with customers) and a complete lack of understanding of how to fit individual stores into their communities.

Currently, there is a quiet/unspoken 'boycott' of Wal-marts in many areas. The community perception is that store workers are abused and foreign workers disadvantaged. The local response from those that can afford it is to use their purchasing power supporting other stores that are perceived as 'local'.

Add to this negative image the 'criminalization' of the employees and customers...and yet...Wal-Mart can't, or won't, make any substantive change in the way they do business.

I worked in small business for 14 years, through the early '80's 'recession', and became firmly convinced that the survival of business depended greatly on keeping loyal customers. As I saw walk-in sales drop, and regulars cut back on purchases, it was the 'regular' that kept the business afloat. And the other half of that was the personal relationships between customers, employees, and the understanding of the business as part of that small community.

As an aside, my own recent disgruntlement happened at a Barnes and Noble this week. After being treated VERY badly at the cash register by a new manager, my husband was leaving and the woman followed him. He confronted her (at this point...very angry): 'What is your problem lady?' And the response was 'Why...do you have something to hide?' The woman refused to give her name...but you can be sure I made a point of calling the company and giving details regarding the insulting behaviour of this person to good customers.

I guess in the current warped world of business (move in with a shoddy box-store, reap the dollars, and leave town after a few years after taking what could be gotten) that is shouldn't surprise people when they discover these businesses view them not as 'customers' but as 'takers'.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 26, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I asked the door ding at a BJ's why they were looking at receipts.  She said to verify the counts match. So, I asked, "How many items in the cart?".  I got a blank stare, and she started to reach for my receipt. I said, "No, how many items are in there?"  This was a hugely piled cart i might add. No way you can count without emptying it.   Short version, manager comes over and wants to know the hold up. I said,  "She's having difficulty counting".  So I was told to just show the reciept and go.  I folded it over twice, and held it so it wouldn't open so she could punch her little hole in it, and left.


I remember an episode of the Andy Griffith Show where there was a rash of shoplifting going on at the main store in town... Barney stopped one old lady whom he was SURE saw lift something... Andy broke it up and apologized to the lady (IN the store) and dragged Barney on outside and told him... "you just can't be stopping customers for having something that they can say they FORGOT to pay for!".... but of course when the little old lady came OUTSIDE the store... Andy arrested her for shop-lifting. It was a fine line and a very good point that retailers need to pay attention to (not, that they have to watch that particular episode, just the principle of it). 
It's only shoplifting when you're OUTSIDE the store and while their cameras may catch you in the act of pocketing something you can ALWAYS claim that you wanted a better way to carry it or some other "lame" but viable excuse. You still got to be out of their doors without paying for it to actually be called a shoplifter. 
But it's nitpicking either way. Pocketing something does show intent. 

There are other stores to shop at/from and extra 10-15 minutes to drive isn't going to kill anybody. Don't like their service... don't shop there. But they DO have their own investments to protect. 
Still, the last time I got stop on suspect shoplifting I found the manager in the bunch and the police officer and told them before I consented to the search that IF ANYTHING they find on my person is something that I didn't pay for from their store is on my person ... they can arrest me... if not... they'll need to call their lawyers. The manager stopped at that and had to think it over. Actually found the employee who pointed the finger and asked them if they were SURE they saw me ... t'was a messy situation to be sure... the employee could only say "I think so." The manager told the cop (all of this was in the store) to let me go... the cop followed me outside and apparently wasn't afraid to be sued and asked to search me... I consented. He found... nothing that I didn't pay for on my person. 
Cop said that I did the right thing. 

Funny though... it's employee theft that is causing most of the damage/losses to these stores.


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## Kreth (Feb 26, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> * Best Buy Calls Cops On You For Telling Fellow Customer Jawbone Headset Is Overpriced, Sucks*


Wow, I do this kind of stuff all the time, never had the cops called on me. Oh, and the Jawbone does suck. :lol:


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## Archangel M (Feb 26, 2009)

The only thing I would suggest to the "indignant customers" out there is to NOT try the "ignore the cop and go on my way" tactic. YOU may know all the details of the situation but most of these get dispatched to the police as "customer trouble". If we pull up with you walking to your car and the manager waving at us and pointing at you we will stop and identify you until we figure out what is going on. If you pull the "I did nothing wrong and you cant detain me" act...well we CAN detain you until we can determine what is going on and you could be arrested for obstructing an investigation, which is what I think has happened in some of these cases...


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## Kreth (Feb 26, 2009)

Actually I think in a situation like the OP, I would talk to the responding cop and tell him I'd like the greeter arrested for unlawfully detaining me, and if they (the greeter) shoved the cart in anyway while I was holding it, I might tack on assault just for fun.


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## Archangel M (Feb 26, 2009)

Kreth said:


> Actually I think in a situation like the OP, I would talk to the responding cop and tell him I'd like the greeter arrested for unlawfully detaining me, and if they (the greeter) shoved the cart in anyway while I was holding it, I might tack on assault just for fun.



I wouldn't play either sides games. Id tell the manager the options I listed above and Id tell you that if YOU were free to go (as in they didnt grab you physically) that you were not unlawfully imprisoned. And unless they rammed the cart into you and either intentionally or recklessly injured you that the assault wouldn't fly either. Your option would be to sue the store. 

This whole thing is more a civil matter than a penal law matter IMO.


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## Kreth (Feb 26, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I wouldn't play either sides games. Id tell the manager the options I listed above and Id tell you that if YOU were free to go (as in they didnt grab you physically) that you were not unlawfully imprisoned. And unless they rammed the cart into you and either intentionally or recklessly injured you that the assault wouldn't fly either. Your option would be to sue the store.


I'm aware of that, but it would be fun to scare the **** out of the greeter for wasting my time. :idunno:


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## Archangel M (Feb 26, 2009)

Personally..If you are going into a store that you ALREADY KNOW checks receipts and you are causing a scene to make a point about a store policy you knew about going in..Im not going to be altogether on your side.


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## Kreth (Feb 26, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Personally..If you are going into a store that you ALREADY KNOW checks receipts and you are causing a scene to make a point about a store policy you knew about going in..Im not going to be altogether on your side.


If they did it consistently I'd probably make less of an issue of it (see my earlier post in this thread). It's kind of like my Indian brother-in-law who seems to get snagged for a lot of "random" checks at the airport. :idunno:


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 26, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> 9. Circuit City Customer Arrested After Refusing To Show Receipt _Michael writes, "I've always taken the stance that retail stores shouldn't treat their loyal customers as criminals and that customers shouldn't so willingly give up their rights along with their money."_


 
Bob,

I didn't pursue the link, but it puts to mind of a story I read (perhaps on MT) of a young man who was detained in the parking lot of one of these retailers, with his very young siblings in tow. He successfully fought it in the courts.

At my Best Buy, the sales staff wear blue shirts, and the door staff wear yellow shirts and have these blasted highlighters. I don't like it, because our system of justice does not require me to prove to someone I am not a thief. When they ask to check my bags and reciepts, I say, "No thank you," with a smile and walk on.

Once I was making a purchase at Future Shop. The checkout was no more than eight feet from the guy with the marker, who was watching me make the purchase. He then stopped me, saying "I need to check your reciept and purchases." I replied, "No you don't. You just watched me pay for my purchases." He insisted, and it was then I began to suspect that these guys aren't just checking on customers; they're watching their co-workers.


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## Wild Bill (Feb 26, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> ....... and it was then I began to suspect that these guys aren't just checking on customers; they're watching their co-workers.


 

When I worked loss prevention it was common knowlege that most of the theft was being commited by employees.


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## JBrainard (Feb 26, 2009)

tellner said:


> At Fry's they actually check every item.


 
That's wierd. Half of the time I go there the don't check me. And as Tellner knows, I can look pretty wierd sometimes.
Maybe they just don't like frogs...


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## JBrainard (Feb 26, 2009)

Double post.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 26, 2009)

Retail stores do not have the legal authority to demand a receipt be shown before allowing a customer to exit the building.  If they forcibly detail a person from leaving without having probable cause to make an arrest _(yes, picture the Andy Griffith show, shouting 'Citizen's Arrest!  Citizen's Arrest!')_, they have most likely broken the law regarding false imprisonment.  If they take or hold the customer's property, they have committed theft.  Depending upon the value of the property, it could be considered a felony.

Loss prevention specialists are typically trained to follow certain rules before approaching and detaining someone they suspect of stealing store property.  Mostly, they have to observe the customer secrete an item in such a manner that a _reasonable and prudent man_ (there's that term again) would believe that the customer intended to steal it.  They must keep the customer under constant surveillance up until they make an apprehension.  If they fail to do so, they generally are trained not to make the stop - it just isn't worth it if they stop or even tackle someone and they turn out not to have the store's property on them.

Fry's is notorious for checking receipts - and at one time, they demanded customers show them.  They got sued - big time.  They lost.  Now they stand around and 'loom over' you and 'act like' you have to show them your receipt.  You don't have to.  You are well within your rights to walk right out.  Oh, they'll still try to get you to comply.  But take note of the words they use:

_"Sir, I need you to come back here!  Sir!"_

Yes, they _need_.  Well, I don't need what they need.  That's their ***.

_"Sir, it is our store policy to check every receipt."_

Yes, and if I were an employee, I'd be bound by YOUR STORE POLICY.  But your store policy does not have the effect of law on me.  You and your store policy can step aside now, please.
_
"Sir, I will come after you."_

Yes, you will.  And continue to beg me to stop. But you won't stop me, nor will you lay a hand on me.  Because you've been told not to by your management.
_
NOTE: This may not be true at "buyer's clubs" like Sams, Costco, and so forth.  You generally signed away your right to refuse search when you got your membership card.  That's a binding contract, so if they want to stop you, they can - and search you - even against your will.  You said they could in writing._

I have heard much about how handwringing about how much money stores lose due to theft.  I'm sorry to hear that they do.  But I do not steal.  I do not give retail stores permission to search me or my property (and yes, it is your property the moment you pay for it, not _'not until you leave the store'_ as some believe).  I've been accosted.  I walk away.

Would I walk away from a police officer?  No, of course not.  A police officer has the full legal authority to detain me to determine my name, address, and what I'm about, and I must comply.  If a police officer orders me to stop, I will.  However, a police officer cannot search my bag and compare it to the receipt, either, except in that he can pat me down for weapons and ensure my bag doesn't have any in it.

I am a bit surprised that the same people who get their panties in a wad over the very thought of government intervention into licensing martial arts centers or instructors would just meekly hand over their receipt and open their bag to have their own property inspected because some minimum-wage mouth-breather said so.

No one at Wal-Mart, CompUSA, BestBuy, etc, are going to stop me at the door.  They've tried, I just say "No, thank you" and walk around them and out the door.  They tell me what they need me to do, I ignore them.  They tell me they're going to 'come after me' and I ignore them.  I've had them write down my license number - I let them and patiently wait until they're done before I carefully back out and drive away.  I've never been visited by the police, never had a police report filed on me.  I know because that information is public domain and I check.

http://www.thelegality.com/archives/36

By the way, a lot of cops think you have to show your receipt if asked, too.  They're wrong.  Not a biggie, and if push came to shove, I am in no hurry to be arrested and go to jail just so I could sue the city and get a settlement, so I'd probably cave - but in reality, no, the cop is wrong if they say that.

However, I am not an attorney.  This is not legal advice.  Ask an attorney.


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## Archangel M (Feb 26, 2009)

To prove a larceny you have to show an _intent to "deprive"_ someone of their property. Meaning to withhold it or cause it to be withheld from him permanently or for so extended a period that the major portion of its economic value or benefit is lost to him, or to dispose of the property in such manner or under such circumstances as to render it unlikely that an owner will recover such property. A larceny charge against the store would fly like a lead balloon. Could I file the charge? Sure. Would it be a waste of the courts time? Probably.

If they grabbed and held the customer physically there could perhaps be grounds for an unlawful imprisonment. But blocking the cart? I wouldn't make the arrest. Let them try and convince a detective to file a warrant...

I wouldn't play the "tit for tat" crap between feuding store owner and customer. I wouldn't force the customer to do anything. I'd list the options I mentioned and let them sort it out. Receipt?...if not...let him go...if you (the store) don't like that then bar this person from the store...if not? Then Im leaving... take it up civilly.


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## Archangel M (Feb 26, 2009)

BTW: many of those "minimum wage mouth breathers" are just folks trying to make a living by doing what their employer tells them to do. Don't take it out on them. If they stand there and don't check then what happens to their job? Its not like they have a personal vendetta against the customers. You are the one who chose to shop there...they dont have a choice about what their boss tells them to do. Tell them that you have a problem showing your receipt and if they insist ask for a manager...THAT person you can give a piece of your mind. I've worked off duty jobs as store security, give the retiree "door greeter" who needs to work a minimum wage job to make ends meet a break...


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 26, 2009)

I guess I am against the grain. I always show them my reciept I figure the old disabled lady been thru enough. I know she can barely see the inside my cart nor cares. Beating someone on their terms is sweeter than beating them on yours.


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## Steve (Feb 26, 2009)

harlan said:


> Yes, you are correct.
> 
> But as an employee, the atmosphere we operate in is one where theft is the aspect that is constantly in the foreground. The other aspects, such as inventory procedures, depend on management. Train, and retrain. The old Sam Walton slogan, 'Value your employees...' has become nothing more than lip service. Security suggestions from the floor/salespeople...go nowhere. For an example, 6 laptops walked out the lawn and garden door from a ring in one theft. The door had been left unmanned. Why? Because management cuts back on floor coverage (=payroll) in the search for constant 'profit'.


This is very true.  The best way to prevent external theft is good customer service.  And the best way to prevent internal theft is good training.  Employees that are well trained know how to prevent incidental loss, and will realize that there's no point in trying to get away with intentional loss, particularly if managment and the LP team are working together to identify and terminate dishonest employees.

All of this said, I'm with jadecloudalchemist.  The employee enjoying the brunt of your ire is not the problem and I'll be as pleasant as I can to her.  I would also suggest avoiding Wal-Mart if at all possible.


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## grydth (Feb 26, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Personally..If you are going into a store that you ALREADY KNOW checks receipts and you are causing a scene to make a point about a store policy you knew about going in..Im not going to be altogether on your side.



The advice of this police officer is the best I've seen here .... don't go shopping looking for a fight. Isn't that what most of our dojos teach us? 

If you know a place has a policy which offends you, shop down the street instead. If there's a sudden request, show them and tell them its the last purchase receipt they'll see from this customer. Then just walk away... again, isn't that what our martial arts teach us to do?

An encounter with a greeter playing police officer can spin quickly into something with unforeseen physical and legal consequences for all concerned. Few, if any, are at all positive. There are seldom any winners, and there can be major losers. Folks - just avoid or minimize these encounters.


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## jks9199 (Feb 26, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I wouldn't play either sides games. Id tell the manager the options I listed above and Id tell you that if YOU were free to go (as in they didnt grab you physically) that you were not unlawfully imprisoned. And unless they rammed the cart into you and either intentionally or recklessly injured you that the assault wouldn't fly either. Your option would be to sue the store.
> 
> This whole thing is more a civil matter than a penal law matter IMO.


I agree.

Though there's a good argument to charge the store with larceny...  either for taking the cart or for taking the money and not surrendering the merchandise.

It probably wouldn't get far at trial... but the argument exists.

As to the right of the store or it's agent to detain a person suspected of theft... that's a trickier issue.  Many states have a Merchant's Code like Virginia's which allows the store employees or the store's agents to detain a person if they have probable cause to suspect shoplifting.  Can that greeter/checker stop anyone?  No.  But they can if they've been directed to by the store staff, or if you set off a shoplifting alarm.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 26, 2009)

Well, I don't 'take it out' on anyone.  I just don't comply. I don't get mad, I say "No, thank you," sidestep and leave.  I'm 48 years old, haven't been tackled yet.

And most of the receipt checkers I've seen at Best Buy are the football players from high school a few years later - not nice old grannies.  But whichever, I wish them all well - and then I leave.

_Non servium_, baby.

Catch you cats later.  My fingers are barely working from dojo tonight.


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## arnisador (Feb 26, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> As to the right of the store or it's agent to detain a person suspected of theft... that's a trickier issue.  Many states have a Merchant's Code like Virginia's which allows the store employees or the store's agents to detain a person if they have probable cause to suspect shoplifting.



I'd almost thinking that checking _everyone_ would undermine their own position in this regard.


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## Jade Tigress (Feb 27, 2009)

I guess I'm the odd one out here. It really doesn't bother me, I've never given it a second thought and I don't know what the big deal is. Whether they give the cart a cursory glance, draw a line across the receipt, or just make sure you have one. I've always considered it making sure you paid and are not trying to walk out the store with stolen merchandise. Shoplifters cost people who pay more money. So, if I'm at a store that wants to see my receipt, fine, "Yeah, here it is. I paid for it." and I'm on my way. No big deal to me.


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## jarrod (Feb 27, 2009)

i'm with ms. tigress here. i usually see one of four greeters at my local store: an old white guy who never asks for my receipt, an old black guy who is one of the nicest people i've ever chatted with, an old lady, & a handicapped guy who wears a lot of POW/MIA stuff. i've never really had the heart to take a stand with any of them, or seen any reason to.  refusing them wouldn't affect wal-mart in the least, it just screws with their ability to do their job.

jf


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## Ninjamom (Feb 27, 2009)

If the security buzzer goes off as I leave, is that in itself enough 'probable cause' to detain and search for stolen goods?


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## jks9199 (Feb 27, 2009)

Ninjamom said:


> If the security buzzer goes off as I leave, is that in itself enough 'probable cause' to detain and search for stolen goods?


In Virginia, yes.  State laws may vary.


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## Kreth (Feb 27, 2009)

Maybe it's because I haven't had enough coffee yet, but I just had this image of the fight scene from _Airport_, except with Wal-Mart greeters instead of religious solicitors. :rofl:


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 27, 2009)

Ninjamom said:


> If the security buzzer goes off as I leave, is that in itself enough 'probable cause' to detain and search for stolen goods?


 
I would think staff would have grounds to inspect the purchases. The alarm in itself simply means that a product has not been properly scanned or the security tag has been removed. For some reason, though, I always look guilty when the darn thing goes off.

The UofT bookstore changed their alarm to a recording of a woman's voice, calmly asking the customer to show their purchase to store staff.


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## arnisador (Feb 27, 2009)

Most of the time when the buzzer goes off for me they look at me and just wave me through anyway. They almost never actually check, though they may offer to demagnetize the item again.


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## jks9199 (Feb 27, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> I would think staff would have grounds to inspect the purchases. The alarm in itself simply means that a product has not been properly scanned or the security tag has been removed. For some reason, though, I always look guilty when the darn thing goes off.
> 
> The UofT bookstore changed their alarm to a recording of a woman's voice, calmly asking the customer to show their purchase to store staff.


Stopping the person and checking their bags actually effects a detention and search.  The law gives them a bit of protection when the store does this, though in the policies I'm aware of, employees are supposed to simply ask the person to stop and have their bag checked.  After all, most of the times I've seen the sensors tripped, it's been one of 3 causes: a missed tag/sensor, someone staying in the store getting too close to the door, or certain brands of strollers that used to set 'em off.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Feb 27, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Costco gives a quick visual check. I thought it was bunk too but one of the door checkers actually found an error on my receipt in my favor - was rung for two of an item when I only purchased one. Got my refund in cash within 5 minutes.
> 
> I've never actually been stopped at Walmart except for having a large item in the cart available outside the registers near the doors - she looked for that item on the receipt; also when I set the buzzers off, I voluntarily stop ... now THAT guy DID go through every item in my cart.


 
Wait wait...the door guy saw there was an error on your receipt in your favor and let you know about it?  Screw Wal-Mart, I want to shop THERE from now on.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 27, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> In Virginia, yes.  State laws may vary.



http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+8.01-226.9



> The activation of an electronic article surveillance device as a result of a person exiting the premises or an area within the premises of a merchant where an electronic article surveillance device is located *shall constitute probable cause* for the detention of such person by such merchant, his agent or employee, provided such person is detained only in a reasonable manner and only for such time as is necessary for an inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the activation of the device, and provided that clear and visible notice is posted at each exit and location within the premises where such a device is located indicating the presence of an antishoplifting or inventory control device.



Note that this is not the same as demanding to see a receipt or inspect the contents of a bag of an exiting customer - that is NOT probable cause.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 27, 2009)

So, am I legally required to allow them to deactivate the device that is part of the item I just bought?


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## arnisador (Feb 27, 2009)

If the alarm goes off they have justification to detain you. (Yes, even if it's their fault.) That's not quite the same thing.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 27, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> So, am I legally required to allow them to deactivate the device that is part of the item I just bought?



Typically, they remove or deactivate the device as part of the checkout sequence, before you have paid.  So it's not yours yet.

If it goes off when you go through the door because they failed to remove or deactivate it properly, I doubt that you're legally required to give it back to them to do so, but if it's one of those plastic tags that they stick in clothes, you'll probably want them to remove it.

Ultimately, the point is this - when you pay for something, ownership transfers to you, and you are not obligated to prove that you bought it - to anyone.  It is up to them to prove you didn't.  

Some states have laws that protect the shopkeeper, which give the status of 'meeting probable cause' to such things as security buzzers going off - so if it goes off, they do have the legal authority to detain you to determine if you've stolen anything, and if you haven't, oh well, too bad, so sad, have a nice day.

Demanding receipts or to look into your bag after you've paid is not 'probable cause' unless the store wants to argue in court that they have sufficient cause to believe that every single one of their customers is a crook (I doubt they'd win that one).

Stores do need to protect themselves against shoplifting, so they walk a very careful line and play a dangerous game.  They generally tell their door security people (and no, those are not the Wal-Mart greeters, they are hired as security people) to act as if they *do* have the authority to demand the receipt, to search the bag and etc.  And most people comply, lining up like docile sheep because a) they don't know any better or b) they know but don't mind, or c) they know and mind, but 'don't want any trouble'.

Everyone is free to choose their own path.  I am not in the habit of turning over my property to be searched on the whims of a store security guard, so I don't.  I never have.  I haven't had any problems with refusing to do so.  But that's just me.


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## Marginal (Feb 28, 2009)

The Super Wal-Mart in Durango would've given some of you a stroke I'm betting. If something tripped the alarm (which seemed to include a non crossed receipt in some cases) The entrance and exit doors would slam shut while an automated voiced announced "you have activated the Wal-Mart theft protection system!" the doors would remain shut until whatever had set the alarm off had been cleared. There was a Durango PD annex built right into the trap zone for good measure.


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## The Last Legionary (Feb 28, 2009)

Went to Walmart.

I bought a dvd.  No bag.
Had dvd in 1 hand, reciept in other.

alarm went off. I keep walking.  I feel a hand on my shoulder.

"Why are you detaining me?"

"I have to check your bag"

"I have no bag".

"I have to check your reciept"

"Your cashier didn't deactivate your loss prevention alarm thingy."

"I have to check your reciept"

"No. You don't. The dvd that is in my and set it off.  Here, watch." I shove dvd into sensors alarm goes off again.

"Well I have to deactivate that."

"You want me to give you my dvd so you can play with it? Sure, that'll be $5 rental fee."

"Sir you're being difficult, I need to deactivate that. Its store policy."

"Show me."

"Wha?"

"Show me the written policy, inform me that you are detaining me under supicion of wrongdoing, call the cops, or get out of my way. But the DVD, it's case, and all contents ae now legally mine as you have been paid in full, as a check of register #5's journal tape will clearly show. I'll even wait here while you check the journal tape, transaction # xxxxxxx. But I have no legal reason to hand over to you, my righfully purchased property, nor show you my reciept, which is also my property, not yours."

"I'm calling the police."

"OK.".

30 minutes later, cops show up.  In the mean tme, I counted at least 10 other people who go through, set off the alarm and no one stops them. 

Cops arrive, we both explain our sides, cop tells me not to be a dick in the future and I get sent on my way.  When I left, the store manager and reciept checker were being chewed out for wasting the cops time, and consistant policy enforcement. Mind you, I had witnesses, was polite, and could prove it was the dvd, not me who was setting off the alarm.

Sometimes, it's worth being a jerk.


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## Archangel M (Feb 28, 2009)

Id have given all of you the lecture about wasting my time.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 28, 2009)

Would I be evil if I scattered active security tags, sticky side up, in the cross walk leading into the store or mall?


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## shesulsa (Feb 28, 2009)

The Last Legionary said:


> Cops arrive, we both explain our sides, cop tells me not to be a dick in the future and I get sent on my way.  When I left, the store manager and reciept checker were being chewed out for wasting the cops time, and consistant policy enforcement. Mind you, I had witnesses, was polite, and could prove it was the dvd, not me who was setting off the alarm.
> 
> Sometimes, it's worth being a jerk.



Actually, having worked retail (I'm sure you have too, as just about everybody does as a teen or ... something) it would have been possible for you to have an additional dvd or other inventory-controlled item in your jacket or pants or whathaveyou; hence, I would insist on deactivating the proven purchase and have you walk through the anti-theft device again devoid of your purchase and hand it back to you intact once you go back through.

But then again, I'm not a megastore like Wal-Mart who can afford a 10% theft loss. :idunno:

To my way of thinking ... if you're not going to back up your anti-theft prevention methods, why have them at all?

Sometimes ya gotta be RIGHT ... and sometimes ya gotta be POLITE.  If you enjoy being a dick, then by all means be one ... just don't complain when you get spanked instead of stroked.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 28, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> To my way of thinking ... if you're not going to back up your anti-theft prevention methods, why have them at all?



They play the percentages.

Just having visible anti-theft devices stop some casual theft (probably not pros).

Asking to see receipts and to look in bags result in a high percentage of voluntary compliance by customers.

And the few (like me) who do not steal and do not comply with their requests to see receipts or search bags do not represent a loss to them.

That leaves professional shoplifters and amateurs with brass balls.

So it works as intended.  There is no need for them to get 100% compliance with their 'store policy' of inspecting receipts - 80% will do nicely.  They know that.


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## The Last Legionary (Feb 28, 2009)

I think you may have missed this part


> Mind you, I had witnesses, was polite, and could prove it was the dvd, not me who was setting off the alarm.


 
I walked through the detector without setting it off.  Waving the DVD by the detector did set it off.  My friends also walked through without setting it off.  The officer who arrived was intellegent enough to see the logic of "No humands make alam go, item does, therefore item is the cause.". He was shown the reciept, noted that th item liste was in fact the item in hand, and that the price on the reciept also matched.  

If Walmart, or any store would like to MODIFY my propery, property that I am clearly the owner of, then they can pay me for the privilage.

Or, would you allow them to dig around in your purse and run your things over their demagnetizer because they hire incompetents?

Mind you, I could have made an issue of their employee assaulting me.
Before anyone comments, if tapping a woman on the shoulder is "sexual assault" (held up in several court cases, and employement hearings as cause for dismissal), then touching me without my consent can also aguably be considered "assault".
This is also why so many placed have "don't touch the customer" policies.


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## grydth (Feb 28, 2009)

The Last Legionary said:


> Went to Walmart.
> 
> I bought a dvd.  No bag.
> Had dvd in 1 hand, reciept in other.
> ...



Sorry, but I believe your own story conclusively proves *exactly* the opposite of your conclusion.

This incident turned a simple shopping visit into what appears to be a 45 minute conflict. I assume you could have put that time to any one of a number of better uses; _I assure you the police could have._

You have nothing to show for this - no dragons slain, no opponents arrested, no store chain changing policy, no settlement/coupon..... nothing. 

Oddly enough, that store employee was trying to do you a favor. I received a Winter coat for a present that did not have the anti-theft device deactivated. I learned this only when it began setting off alarms as I was entering other stores.

Sometimes, its worth following what our sensei and sifu teach... just walk away.


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## arnisador (Feb 28, 2009)

The Last Legionary said:


> Sometimes, it's worth being a jerk.



Heh. It's certainly more satisfying.

Alas, I doubt it ever changes anything, but I believe you do have to fight to keep your rights or they'll disappear on you while you're not being vigilant.


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## MJS (Feb 28, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Typically, they remove or deactivate the device as part of the checkout sequence, before you have paid. So it's not yours yet.
> 
> If it goes off when you go through the door because they failed to remove or deactivate it properly, I doubt that you're legally required to give it back to them to do so, but if it's one of those plastic tags that they stick in clothes, you'll probably want them to remove it.
> 
> ...


 
Bill,

Could you clarify the bold statements for me.  Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but it seems that in the first paragraph, you're saying that if the buzzer goes off, they have the right to check your bags, but in the next, you're saying that they don't.  Obviously they're going to need your slip to show what you purchased matches whats in the bag, so I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying here.  I could go thru the line with 3 rubbermaid storage containers (the large kind) stacked inside of each other, with 20 dvds lined on the bottom of one of them.  The buzzer will no doubt go off, so while it will seem as if I paid for the containers, fact is, I didn't pay for the other items.

As far as the last few lines go...this reminds me of a video clip that was posted on here quite some time ago, about a random mv spot check, which IIRC, was at a boarder.  It seemed that the person in the car was taping the stop and pretty much being an *** to the cop, repeatedly asking what grounds she had for stopping him.  

Now, people are free to think what they want, but for myself, I'm all for doing what I can to avoid a headache.  So if someone asks to look into my bag, and I have nothing to hide, what is it costing me to let them look?  10 sec of my time?  I'd be willing to bet, were this taking place in say an airport, train station, etc., and a LEO stopped you to do a random check, that you'd probably find yourself in a heap of trouble if you didn't let them look in your bags.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2009)

MJS said:


> Bill,
> 
> Could you clarify the bold statements for me.  Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but it seems that in the first paragraph, you're saying that if the buzzer goes off, they have the right to check your bags, but in the next, you're saying that they don't.  Obviously they're going to need your slip to show what you purchased matches whats in the bag, so I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying here.  I could go thru the line with 3 rubbermaid storage containers (the large kind) stacked inside of each other, with 20 dvds lined on the bottom of one of them.  The buzzer will no doubt go off, so while it will seem as if I paid for the containers, fact is, I didn't pay for the other items.



Sorry if I was unclear, my bad.

When you buy an item in a store and pay for it, it is your property at that moment.  The store has no right to detain you, demand that you prove you own it, or to search your person or property - without probable cause.  

In some states, the security buzzer going off constitutes 'probable cause' and then the rules change about what they can legally do.

Just standing at the door and demanding to see your receipt - without the buzzer going off - is not probable cause, and they can't enforce it - they can only make you THINK they can enforce it, which is what they generally do.



> As far as the last few lines go...this reminds me of a video clip that was posted on here quite some time ago, about a random mv spot check, which IIRC, was at a boarder.  It seemed that the person in the car was taping the stop and pretty much being an *** to the cop, repeatedly asking what grounds she had for stopping him.


Didn't see the video, but it doesn't seem smart to do that to a cop.  The legality of roadblocks has been long established.



> Now, people are free to think what they want, but for myself, I'm all for doing what I can to avoid a headache.  So if someone asks to look into my bag, and I have nothing to hide, what is it costing me to let them look?


I can tell you what it is costing ME to let them look.  Your mileage may vary! ;-)

One more depredation of my civil liberties.  Small, to be sure.  But one more.  And nobody ever stops at one.

One more acknowledgment that my 'rights' aren't really 'rights' after all.  In fact, if I demand that they be respected, I'm being rude, uncooperative, and a general pain in the ***.  The lesson?  Rights don't matter as much as being polite and going along with the program.  Rights don't matter as much as saving time when I'm late for work.

One more beat-down of the part of my spirit that believes we live in a free country, and that the Fourth Amendment means something literal, not just theoretical.



> 10 sec of my time?  I'd be willing to bet, were this taking place in say an airport, train station, etc., and a LEO stopped you to do a random check, that you'd probably find yourself in a heap of trouble if you didn't let them look in your bags.


I follow the law.  If the law says I have to submit to inspection, I do.  If the law does not require me to do so, I don't.  When it comes to voluntarily surrendering my rights, my motto is a cheerful _'non servium'_.

I know it sounds corny, but I belong to that segment of our society that believes the most patriotic thing I could possibly do is to insist that my rights are observed, every jot and tittle, in all things great and small.

I'm a patriot.  I've given six years of my life to military service and a decade to law enforcement, and I believe I have 'given back' to my country and my fellow man.  But my oaths were not to the President, the Congress, or a flag, a political party or a religion.  My honor-bound duty was and is to the Constitution and everything it stands for.  It is that amazing document that I love, that I believe makes the USA great, that sets us apart in the history of the world from all other nations, and my fealty is to that alone.

My opinion is that societies seldom lose their rights overnight.  It happens a little at a time, over a long course of time, generally because a complacent citizenry finds it too time-consuming, boring, pointless, and, well, rude to stand up for their rights in the face of the little daily depredations that go on around us.  I firmly believe that our nation can never be destroyed, unless first our rights are destroyed.  And I don't believe that our rights could ever be taken from us by force - but I do believe we'd give them up, one by one, day by day, in the tiniest of ways, ways that seem insignificant, to make our lives a little (seemingly) safer, or more convenient.  Americans won't ever be made into slaves unless they kneel first.   The bended knee is not one of my traditions.


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## MJS (Mar 1, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Sorry if I was unclear, my bad.
> 
> When you buy an item in a store and pay for it, it is your property at that moment. The store has no right to detain you, demand that you prove you own it, or to search your person or property - without probable cause.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the clarification Bill.   To comment on a few things...

Regarding the checking of the receipt:  Many of the wholesale stores, such as Sams Club and BJs have someone at the exit.  They take your slip, do a quick scan and send you on your way.  In your opinion, do you feel this is acceptable or should they just let you leave?  

Regarding the video clip I mentioned:  It was an interesting clip.  I could probably find it if I dug a little.  I agree though...in cases like that, I think the people should just shut the hell up and cooperate, but thats just me.

Regarding our rights...I pretty much agree with what you're saying.  Of course, in certain cases, there are probably excpetions to the rule.  Sometimes, we may just have to swallow our pride and deal with the rules.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2009)

MJS said:


> Regarding the checking of the receipt:  Many of the wholesale stores, such as Sams Club and BJs have someone at the exit.  They take your slip, do a quick scan and send you on your way.  In your opinion, do you feel this is acceptable or should they just let you leave?



You may have missed my comments regarding wholesale stores like Sam's and BJ's.  When you join them, you agree in writing to allow yourself to be searched.  So that gives them the right to do it.  It's in the agreement you signed.

However, let's take a different retailer, like Fry's or Best Buy.  They do the same thing, but there is no preexisting agreement between customer and retailer.

To answer your question - they do their thing and I do mine.  I don't care if they station people at the exits and 'ask' for your receipt.  Well, actually, I do wish they would not do it, but they certainly can do it if that's their policy.  Should they actually physically stop me?  No.



> Regarding our rights...I pretty much agree with what you're saying.  Of course, in certain cases, there are probably excpetions to the rule.  Sometimes, we may just have to swallow our pride and deal with the rules.



My old man said that I was one who never knew how to pick his battles.  I get that - it's a flaw.  I realize that I can't fight every battle.  I like to think I've learned to let some little things go.

In the case of the great _'let me see your receipt'_ debacle - really, it's not some major issue.  They ask to see my receipt, I say no thank you and keep steppin'.  They sometimes shout stuff after me.  That's pretty much it.  Been doing it for years.  And I actually think things have changed somewhat - I seldom get the yelling anymore.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 1, 2009)

My response to them if they fail to deactivate the sensor and ask me to step back inside, or try and detain me to check my receipt is "I'm sorry Im in a hurry, if you wish to detain me place me under arrest and call the police" as I continue to walk.   The simple fact is they CANNOT hold you, stop you, or search your property without doing so, at least here.  That much was drilled into us when I was a retail manager and we were trained on detaining potential shoplifters.  EVEN if the alarm is tripped, the only way we could detain someone is if we saw them select the item, saw them conceal the item, and never lost sight of them so they could not have put the item down.  Just setting off our alarm wasn't enough... we could attempt to stop someone who did that, but if they didn't want to be stopped, we couldn't do anything.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 1, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Would I be evil if I scattered active security tags, sticky side up, in the cross walk leading into the store or mall?


 
May or may not work. Most of those sticky tags can be defeated by squeezing them, so the pressure on the tags from walking might render them useless.  I used to stick them under the collars of my friend's coats tho.  That was always good for a laugh.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> That much was drilled into us when I was a retail manager and we were trained on detaining potential shoplifters.  EVEN if the alarm is tripped, the only way we could detain someone is if we saw them select the item, saw them conceal the item, and never lost sight of them so they could not have put the item down.  Just setting off our alarm wasn't enough... we could attempt to stop someone who did that, but if they didn't want to be stopped, we couldn't do anything.



That's true, many stores teach their employees exactly that, to avoid liability for lawsuits brought by outraged customers.  In addition, you probably know that most stores teach their employees that only designated security personnel can follow or detain a suspected shoplifter, because they receive special training in how to legally do so, which general employees do not.

However, it must be noted that in some states, setting off the alarm constitutes 'probable cause' and the store can detain customers in those circumstances - and might.  You have to be sure what the law is in the state you're in.


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## Archangel M (Mar 1, 2009)

Just as a point of fact. The Fourth Amendment only applies to governmental entities. It does not guarantee a right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures conducted by private citizens or organizations.* Even if a WalMart door greeter seraches your stuff, its not a 4th Amendment violation. If a store security "illegally searches" you and finds evidence of a crime, he can call the police and we CAN use it.

_*United States v. Jacobsen, 466 U.S. 109 (1984): "This Court has ... consistently construed this protection as proscribing only governmental action; it is wholly inapplicable to a search or seizure, even an unreasonable one, effected by a private individual not acting as an agent of the Government or with the participation or knowledge of any governmental official."_


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 2, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Just as a point of fact. The Fourth Amendment only applies to governmental entities. It does not guarantee a right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures conducted by private citizens or organizations.* Even if a WalMart door greeter seraches your stuff, its not a 4th Amendment violation. If a store security "illegally searches" you and finds evidence of a crime, he can call the police and we CAN use it.
> 
> _*United States v. Jacobsen, 466 U.S. 109 (1984): "This Court has ... consistently construed this protection as proscribing only governmental action; it is wholly inapplicable to a search or seizure, even an unreasonable one, effected by a private individual not acting as an agent of the Government or with the participation or knowledge of any governmental official."_



You are correct that the Fourth is a stricture on the government, but tort law applies a similar correction to private entities that conduct 'unreasonable' searches and seizures.  Let's say they decide they think you stole something, but did not witness you steal it.  

They put the habeus grabbus on you, hold you against your will, and while waiting for the police to arrive, search you and your property.  If they find nothing, they've got problems.  Civil at the minimum, and probably criminal as well, though the aggrieved party might have to go through the city attorney to get charges filed.  

If there is no probable cause to hold, there is no probable cause to search, and there would be no problem obtaining damages in a civil suit - in fact, it would most likely be settled quickly by the store's insurance.

That is why stores generally train their security guards, as I said, to only stop people whom they have seen take something and at least attempt to conceal it.  They don't have to actually leave the store, just hiding it is sufficient.  They must keep the person under surveillance at all times until they detain them.  That's not a law or anything, that's just common store policy - very common.

Getting back to the original point - if no security buzzer goes off, and the security people simply demand to see a receipt and/or search your bag, and you decline and are detained/searched on that basis - there is no PC, and frankly, they're about to write a big check to the person they just screwed with.  

As far as grabbing the cart and holding it, refusing to let the person take their property and leave - again, without PC, and depending on jurisdiction, it's conversion, and that is a crime that can be prosecuted.

I know a lot of cops think store owners can pretty much do what they want to customers - they can't.  The rules of probable cause apply to them just like anyone else.


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## Carol (Mar 2, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You are correct that the Fourth is a stricture on the government, but tort law applies a similar correction to private entities that conduct 'unreasonable' searches and seizures.  Let's say they decide they think you stole something, but did not witness you steal it.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> I know a lot of cops think store owners can pretty much do what they want to customers - they can't.  The rules of probable cause apply to them just like anyone else.



Except...cops don't enforce tort law.


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## Archangel M (Mar 2, 2009)

Just another legal point. The Fourth Amendment applies to criminal law, but not civil law, as affirmed by the Supreme Court in 1855 in the _Murray v. Hoboken Land._ So while a private entity could still be sued (you can ALWAYS be sued), anything illegal they may find could still be used by the police. Other than that its between "all a yall" (barring any ancillary arrests).

Citizen Arrest laws vary widely from state to state so Im not prepared to make any comment reagrding the legalities of any store detaining or arresting...


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## Jade Tigress (Mar 2, 2009)

Do that many Walmarts check receipts? None of them around here do, just the wholesale clubs. I do recall the Walmart when I was living in NC checking receipts though. I do most of my shopping at Target anyway, they never check receipts. 



grydth said:


> Sorry, but I believe your own story conclusively proves *exactly* the opposite of your conclusion.
> 
> Oddly enough, that store employee was trying to do you a favor. I received a Winter coat for a present that did not have the anti-theft device deactivated. I learned this only when it began setting off alarms as I was entering other stores.
> 
> Sometimes, its worth following what our sensei and sifu teach... just walk away.



I bought my daughter a winter coat for Christmas and when I checked out the clerk told me to cut out a sewn in tag on the inside of the coat to prevent it from setting off alarms. I don't think my daughter cut it off but she doesn't set off any alarms, lol. 

On the very few occasions that something I purchased has set off an alarm, I have just kept walking and was never stopped.


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## Joab (Mar 2, 2009)

They never do that at my Walmart, and greeters arn't supposed to do that. The Greeter was going against company policy.


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## jks9199 (Mar 2, 2009)

The one I tend to shop at has someone checking receipts sometimes...  I don't know what their rational for stopping someone is, and I don't recall being stopped myself.  Best Buy does... but their line is usually big/expensive.  Of course, I just bought a video camera and walked out without being checked at all...


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## Cryozombie (Mar 2, 2009)

Jade Tigress said:


> I bought my daughter a winter coat for Christmas and when I checked out the clerk told me to cut out a sewn in tag on the inside of the coat to prevent it from setting off alarms. I don't think my daughter cut it off but she doesn't set off any alarms, lol.



My new coat had one of those as well.  They probably ran it over the magnetic pad and deactivated it... the little tabs inside stuck together. I cut mine out so I could take it apart and see what kind of tag it had inside.


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## Jade Tigress (Mar 2, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> My new coat had one of those as well.  They probably ran it over the magnetic pad and deactivated it... the little tabs inside stuck together. I cut mine out so I could take it apart and see what kind of tag it had inside.




I was wondering about those. It looks like a regular clothes tag.


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You may have missed my comments regarding wholesale stores like Sam's and BJ's. When you join them, you agree in writing to allow yourself to be searched. So that gives them the right to do it. It's in the agreement you signed.
> 
> However, let's take a different retailer, like Fry's or Best Buy. They do the same thing, but there is no preexisting agreement between customer and retailer.
> 
> To answer your question - they do their thing and I do mine. I don't care if they station people at the exits and 'ask' for your receipt. Well, actually, I do wish they would not do it, but they certainly can do it if that's their policy. Should they actually physically stop me? No.


 
Yeah, I may have missed the earlier comment regarding Sams/BJs..I was a bit late to this thread and didn't go back to read every post.  Usually the only time I've seen the greeters at Walmart stop people are the real busy days, such as Black Friday.  Yesterday my wife and I stopped into Walmart to get something.  On our way out, the alarm went off.  We knew we paid for what we had, but we stopped anyways.  Surprisingly, nobody came over to us.  We waited a few seconds, and then kept on walking.  Nobody yelled, chased after us...nothing.





> My old man said that I was one who never knew how to pick his battles. I get that - it's a flaw. I realize that I can't fight every battle. I like to think I've learned to let some little things go.
> 
> In the case of the great _'let me see your receipt'_ debacle - really, it's not some major issue. They ask to see my receipt, I say no thank you and keep steppin'. They sometimes shout stuff after me. That's pretty much it. Been doing it for years. And I actually think things have changed somewhat - I seldom get the yelling anymore.


 
Well, looks like AA addressed this with his post.   IMO, I really don't think that they're violating any of my rights.  Now, had the buzzer went off, like it did yesterday, and someone did come over, and wanted to look at my bag, and receipt, I'd stop and let them do it.  If we think about it, the buzzer going off, is their probably cause to stop me.  In that case, we should stop.  But, as I said above, I've yet to be stopped by anyone leaving except from the situations I listed.


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## GBlues (Mar 3, 2009)

Here is my problem with Wal-Mart. They treat you like a thief the moment you walk through the doors and then rob you blind at the cash register. In fact in my home town, at the customer service desk is a big sign for the employees to read that says and I quote, " All returned meats and frozen foods must be returned to the shelf immediately". What in the sam hell are they thinking????? You don't know what the person returning that food has done to that meat. Come on. Furthermore, Wal-Mart is no cheaper than any other place, and many times more expensive, excessively so. A good example of this is you can go do price checking on video games, and many times wal-mart for 6 months or better is selling a video game for $59.95 when at best buy it's going $29-39.95, cause it's on the platinums list, ( which means it's sold more than a million copies). Wal-Mart cheaper? Nah not really. For Groceries? Not really often times there meat makes me sick, so I don't buy my groceries there anymore. I buy from somebody else. Like Safeway, I don't get diaherria from the meat, and the quality is far better. I save more money on toilet paper buy shopping at Safeway than I ever could buying Groceries at Wal-Mart.

As far as them stopping me to check my reciept. I DON'T. Unless my wife is with me. I tell them point blank, "No, if you think I stole something call the cops.....I'll Wait." Once I have paid for it, they do not have the right to check my reciept, or my items in my cart, unless they think I stole something. And then buddy you better be able to prove it. There are 2 things I will not put up with. Being called liar, or being called a thief. I am neither, and I will not be treated like either. I paid for it, it's mine now. Should I show them the reciept for the clothes that I walked in wearing on my back also?? No, it's not there business anymore unless they feel that I have stolen something. I have had them try to stop me, and I don't let them. Put your hands on me, and it gets broke. Period. Not playing around with communist *******s. Wal-Mart is going to get somebody hurt. They try to stop me every single time I buy dog food. Apparently it gets stolen out here quite a bit. Not my problem, I paid for mine.

I am 30 years old, and I have had this problem with walmart since I was 18....hmmm...maybe it was the long hair in those days.


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## MJS (Mar 3, 2009)

Wow...all I can say is, there must be some rough WalMarts around, because as I said in another post, I have yet to be stopped when I was walking out.  Again, the only time is usually during the busy season, ie: Christmas, Black Friday, etc.  I was there this weekend picking up an item with my wife.  We walked out, the buzzer went off, but we both knew we paid for it, we stopped for a few seconds, nobody came, so we kept walking.


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## Archangel M (Mar 3, 2009)

All I can say is...why in hell do you shop there in the first place? I raise an eyebrow evertime I hear about how much someone HATES something then goes on to describe what happenens EVERY TIME THEY GO there.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 5, 2009)

Oh, I don't have any of these problems because I don't shop at any of those receipt check places. *shrug*


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## Jade Tigress (Dec 4, 2009)

I just saw this story on the news a few minutes ago. I'll post a link if they get it posted on their website.

It was a video caught on security camera of a Walmart greeter being punched. He was outside walking towards a car and another man walked past him and clocked him a good one. The greeter went down and it was reported that all the bones on the left side of his face were broken. 

Why did the guy punch the greeter? He was mad that he was asked to show his receipt upon leaving.


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 4, 2009)

Jade Tigress said:


> I just saw this story on the news a few minutes ago. I'll post a link if they get it posted on their website.
> 
> It was a video caught on security camera of a Walmart greeter being punched. He was outside walking towards a car and another man walked past him and clocked him a good one. The greeter went down and it was reported that all the bones on the left side of his face were broken.
> 
> Why did the guy punch the greeter? He was mad that he was asked to show his receipt upon leaving.


speechless


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## crushing (Dec 4, 2009)

I don't shop at Walmart.  Partly because of their business practices and partly because of the customers they do draw.


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## Jade Tigress (Dec 4, 2009)

crushing said:


> I don't shop at Walmart.  Partly because of their business practices and partly because of the customers they do draw.



Like these?


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## MJS (Dec 4, 2009)

My wife and I went to our local WalMart on Black Friday.  No, we didn't get there early, we went out around 9-10ish, and it was still packed.  I did notice 2 uniformed police officers standing at the exit doors though, along with the small group of greeters that were checking your bags, sales slips, etc. as you walked out.  

I'm sure, due to the childish and violent antics of some, this is now necessary, to have the PD there.  I'm not complaining.  Personally, I think its a good thing.  If it deters some clown from doing something stupid, then I'm happy to see them there.


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 4, 2009)

Greeter gone wild...


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## Flea (Dec 4, 2009)

I haven't Shopped The W in years, and the receipt-checking has a lot to do with it.  I just don't see any reason to alienate customers in such a profound way as to assume they're criminals.  Especially timing it so closely to _paying_ for merchandise, and making the insult a customer's final impression of the company at the end of the transaction.

On my big cross-country road trip I broke with the tradition a few times - when you don't know the layout of a small town and you have to cover 350 miles before bedtime, it's just more practical.  I was pleased to note that I wasn't ambushed at the door a single time.  Is this a change in corporate policy, or are they just getting lazy in the small towns?


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 9, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> * Walmart Steals Your Cart Because You Won't Let Them Check Your Receipt *
> 
> Lisa says a Walmart greeter grabbed onto her cart and and wouldn't let her leave because she refused to let the greeter check her receipt. That, my friends, is not legal. Sure, it would make life a lot easier if people just acquiesced to the receipt-checking, but it's not the law. It is against the law, however, to unlawfully detain a customer. Here's Lisa's account: More *»*


 I know someone whom steals groceries like this all the time. He beats the system by pretending to check the reciept himself as he walks out. I say let walmart check your stuff! 
Sean


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## David43515 (Dec 9, 2009)

arnisador said:


> After they give you the receipt for having given them the money...it's yours, right? I suppose all they could do is ban you from returning to the store?


 
Actually, unless you have caused a disturbance and they get a restraining order, they can`t ban you from any retail outlet that is open to the general public.

Even though it`s private property, they open it to everyone for public use. So unless they`ve taken the steps of getting the court to songle you out, you`re still allowed to go as often as you like.Just never cause a disturbance. Keep your voice low, be polite, and behave professionaly. If someone does kick you out, just to piss them off,ask them for a job application. Legally they have to give one to anyone who asks or they`re in violation of Federal law.


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## Archangel M (Dec 9, 2009)

Ehhh...I don't know about that man. We enforce criminal trespass on people banned from stores all the time. They just have to have been formally advised in writing that they are no longer welcome on the property.

The store shows us the signed "bar notice" and we lock em up. No "court order" necessary.


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## Carol (Dec 9, 2009)

David43515 said:


> Legally they have to give one to anyone who asks or they`re in violation of Federal law.



Which federal law are they violating?  Do you have a citation?


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## Archangel M (Dec 9, 2009)

Similarly, if the store tells you to leave and you refuse you can be charged with trespass on private property.


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## Jdokan (Dec 9, 2009)

years ago I used to work at a local department store chain called Almy's...They would make all the employee open their purchases and have the receipt checked when they left the store at closing time...The day shift did not have to  go through that process....as a result most of those that stole from that store did so as a either on their day shift or as a regullar customer.....


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## David43515 (Dec 9, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Which federal law are they violating? Do you have a citation?


 
Equal opportunity employment laws. Obviously you don`t have to hire everyone who applies for a job, but you have to allow anyone and everyone who wants to fill out an application to do so.


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## David43515 (Dec 9, 2009)

A few years ago in Toledo a close friend went christmas shopping at a Meijers department store. They`re very similar to a Walmart, just a smaller chain. My friend has severe PTSD and really hates crowds, so he likes the fact he can shop at 3:00 a.m. and mostly have the place to himself.

He dresses like a cross between a lumberjack and a hells angel, so sometimes he gets a few odd looks. This particular night the store staff was doing stocking while he was shopping. He went to the toys area to get some things for his little boy and one of the clercks had apparently stepped away from the video games case while they were stocking it. Since the game he wanted to buy was sitting on top of a cart of games waiting to be put in the case, my friend took one off the pile and put it in his own cart. Apparently that was when an employee who had been following him (without my friend knowing) stepped up behind him and roughly grabbed him from behind. There was no warning, verbal or otherwise, just a quick grab from behind in a mostly deserted store at 3:00 a.m.

My friend reacted by elbowing the employee in the ribs and throwing him to the ground in less time than it takes to say it. The employee began screaming that he was store security and yelling for help. When the manager arrived he stuck by his employee, despite the fact that under Ohio law he`d just assaulted a customer. They "banned" my friend from the store.....without bothering to get any personal info or take a picture, or without calling the police.  I laughed and laughed when I heard about it because he is literally the most upright and honest person I know (former Military Police, teaches Sunday school, etc) but I was so suprised that they would leave security to people who are so poorly trained in how to approach customers.


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## Carol (Dec 9, 2009)

David43515 said:


> Equal opportunity employment laws. Obviously you don`t have to hire everyone who applies for a job, but you have to allow anyone and everyone who wants to fill out an application to do so.



Neither the US DOL nor the EEOC have such a law as federal statute. I'll buy a year's supporting membership for the first person that can cite where in 29 CFR 1614 (or any other federal statute)  states that employers must give job apps to any and all people that ask. Offer only applies to the laws that are on the books as of today.   

The EEOC makes many practice recommendations.   Some are followed as religiously as if they were statutory law.  The EEOC frowns on asking what a person's religion is unless you're hiring a rabbi, for example.   Other recommendations are often ignored.  The EEOC frowns on pre-employment credit checks, for example.  However, the EEOC does not have statutes that say it is illegal to ask a person's religion.  The statute states that it is illegal to discriminate based on religion.  Where the practice recommendations come in to play is to give employers guidelines in difficult situations.  Example -- if a Jewish-looking applicant interviews for a job and you have a position that may require work that has to be done after sundown on Friday, don't ask if the applicant is Jewish.  Instead, state the work hours that are required for the job and ask the applicant if he has any concerns or obligations that would interfere with working such a schedule.

For a retailer or other organization that primarily relies on unskilled labor, it may be a good practice to offer a job application to everyone that asks for one, in order to not show any sort of discrimination among protected boundaries.  This is one of the reasons why retailers have implemented job app kiosks.   But giving a job application to all comers is a bit over the top, IMO.


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## jks9199 (Dec 10, 2009)

David43515 said:


> Actually, unless you have caused a disturbance and they get a restraining order, they can`t ban you from any retail outlet that is open to the general public.
> 
> Even though it`s private property, they open it to everyone for public use. So unless they`ve taken the steps of getting the court to songle you out, you`re still allowed to go as often as you like.Just never cause a disturbance. Keep your voice low, be polite, and behave professionaly. If someone does kick you out, just to piss them off,ask them for a job application. Legally they have to give one to anyone who asks or they`re in violation of Federal law.


Perhaps in your state.  I assure you that, in Virginia, a business can indeed bar anyone from the property, even if it's nominally open to the public.  The only limitation is that the person cannot be barred solely for being part of a protected class; Bill's Special Store cannot bar old people or blacks or Christians or a person simply for being one of these.  But they can bar that individual for their own actions, on an individualized basis.

I've done it -- and I've charged and prosecuted people for it, successfully.

Heck, one jurisdiction used to (I think they stopped it after I had a chance to ask a judge in a classroom setting about it!) routinely allow people to plead shoplifting down to trespass, as a violation of the close by entering the store to steal rather than shop.


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## jks9199 (Dec 10, 2009)

David43515 said:


> Equal opportunity employment laws. Obviously you don`t have to hire everyone who applies for a job, but you have to allow anyone and everyone who wants to fill out an application to do so.


No, you don't.  You simply can't prohibit them from applying because they are part of a protected class.  

The distinction may seem subtle -- and it is often misunderstood.


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## David43515 (Dec 10, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> No, you don't. You simply can't prohibit them from applying because they are part of a protected class.
> 
> The distinction may seem subtle -- and it is often misunderstood.


 
Well I went back and read through about 6 different laws from civil rights , to americans with disabilities, to commerce, to everything else and I hate to admit that you are correct. 

I was mistaken, it`s not a violation unless they refuse you as a member of a protected class.


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## David43515 (Dec 10, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Perhaps in your state. I assure you that, in Virginia, a business can indeed bar anyone from the property, even if it's nominally open to the public. The only limitation is that the person cannot be barred solely for being part of a protected class; Bill's Special Store cannot bar old people or blacks or Christians or a person simply for being one of these. But they can bar that individual for their own actions, on an individualized basis.
> 
> I've done it -- and I've charged and prosecuted people for it, successfully.
> 
> Heck, one jurisdiction used to (I think they stopped it after I had a chance to ask a judge in a classroom setting about it!) routinely allow people to plead shoplifting down to trespass, as a violation of the close by entering the store to steal rather than shop.


 
Go back and reread what I said, and what you said. I said they can`t bar you from the place unless you are causing a disturbance (or have done so previously). You said they can bar an individual for "thier own actions". Same thing really.

We had a case where a waitress got angry at her boss and didn`t show up for work in the afternoon. He told her that she couldn`t come back to finish her schedule that week until he had spoken to HR. She came back the next evening _not to work but_ _as a customer _and he lost his cool and began yelling at her that she was banned from the premises. The local police were enjoying a cup of coffee two tables over and told him that since she wasn`t creating any disturbance and the place was open to the public he couldn`t ban here from the premisies without a restraining order. If she was doing something wrong he could, but all she had done was come in and order dinner.

I`m not a lawyer, and I don`t play one on TV....but that was how the police explained it to me.


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## jks9199 (Dec 10, 2009)

David43515 said:


> Go back and reread what I said, and what you said. I said they can`t bar you from the place unless you are causing a disturbance (or have done so previously). You said they can bar an individual for "thier own actions". Same thing really.
> 
> We had a case where a waitress got angry at her boss and didn`t show up for work in the afternoon. He told her that she couldn`t come back to finish her schedule that week until he had spoken to HR. She came back the next evening _not to work but_ _as a customer _and he lost his cool and began yelling at her that she was banned from the premises. The local police were enjoying a cup of coffee two tables over and told him that since she wasn`t creating any disturbance and the place was open to the public he couldn`t ban here from the premisies without a restraining order. If she was doing something wrong he could, but all she had done was come in and order dinner.
> 
> I`m not a lawyer, and I don`t play one on TV....but that was how the police explained it to me.


Note that I specified Virginia; I don't know where the incident you describe with the waitress happened.  In Virginia, a business can bar you from their property for nothing more than simply not wanting you there.  The discrimination aspect is really civil, not criminal.  If asked, I'd advise a business owner that barring someone because they're a Reformed Zoroastrian probably is unwise, and probably opens them up to civil liability, and they might want to talk to a lawyer -- but they can do it.  They'd probably lose it at trial, too, if that was their sole reason.  But it's their property, and they can bar someone for nothing more than "I don't like you."  Just like you could in your house.

Nor is that what you said; you specified that the person to be barred had to have caused a disturbance (what is a "disturbance" for that purpose?) AND that a restraining order had to be obtained.  Again, in Virginia, written notice helps prove that notice was made -- but is not required.  Some cops I know have a perception that there's some magic effect of giving someone notice in the presence of law enforcement; there's not.  So long as the victim/property owner will come to court, I can charge a person based on their statement that they've told the person to leave, and the suspect has remained, or that the suspect returned after being told not to come back.  I do need to be able to show that they had notice, from a property owner or person with authority, that entering the property would be trespassing.

Different states, different rules.  I can't address another state's laws.  In fact, since I'm not a lawyer -- note that what I address in Virginia's is very limited, and I don't give specific legal guidance or advice...


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