# keep in mind that if your opponent is hard to stop, so are you.



## Brian King (Jan 4, 2009)

This is a long article and very good analyses worth reading (more than once) all the way to the end. The mindset discussed pertains to all that engage in action professions and any that find themselves in personal combat.

http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0412/the_peter_soulis_incident.html;jsessionid=10BDC02F0CF4D0B083E43EA06A47B949pital



> Also, keep in mind that if your opponent is hard to stop, so are you.
> 
> In fact, the wounds severe bleeding only served to stir his warrior spirit and focus his concerns on what Palmer might do if allowed to escape.
> 
> ...


 
Warmest Regards
Brian King


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## jarrod (Jan 4, 2009)

an amazing story.  yet another argument for 2 in the chest, 1 in the head.  of course, you can't always be that picky with your shots.

jf


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## seasoned (Jan 4, 2009)

Brian said:


> This is a long article and very good analyses worth reading (more than once) all the way to the end. The mindset discussed pertains to all that engage in action professions and any that find themselves in personal combat.
> 
> http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0412/the_peter_soulis_incident.html;jsessionid=10BDC02F0CF4D0B083E43EA06A47B949pital
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for sharing this story. At any point during this encounter, if officer Soulis would have given up, he would not have made it. This is something that may never happen in most peoples lifes, but is thought about often by those sworn to defend. His training, and that warrior spirit within him, allowed him, to make that critical decision to put all else second and focus completely on stopping Palmer, and in doing so, he saved many lives.


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## searcher (Jan 4, 2009)

jarrod said:


> an amazing story. yet another argument for 2 in the chest, 1 in the head. of course, you can't always be that picky with your shots.
> 
> jf


 

I will be happy with any on target that stop the threat.


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## Doc (Jan 7, 2009)

The officers name is not revealed for obvious reasons.

Officer Blank was monitoring traffic from a service station parking lot when he spotted a Toyota pull onto the lot with its lights off. The driver drove to a spot directly in Blank  ' line of sight, turned the Toyota toward the street and stopped. Ignoring Blank, he sat eyes straight ahead, focused on the small strip mall across the street. It was almost midnight, and the only business still open in the mall was a sandwich shop.

Blank decided to investigate. The lot was dimly lit, so he left his headlights off as he pulled forward and stopped behind the Toyota. After angling his car to the left for cover, he logged out on his MDT, grabbed his heavy-duty flashlight, and stepped out into the cool night air. The driver never took his eyes off the strip mall.

Blank, a safety-conscious, 38-year-old officer with 11 years on the job, worked for a large metropolitan police department in a city with more than its share of violent crime, but the driver didn't look like a troublemaker and appeared only to be drunk. Still, Blank knew better than to take anything for granted. Waiting to turn the flashlight on until he got closer, he cautiously moved to a spot about 10 feet behind the Toyota.

Suddenly, the driver lunged to his right and down. Without conscious thought, Blank drew his guna .40 caliber Glock 22as he moved to his left and shined the light into the car. "Show me your hands!" he shouted.

Slowly and without looking at Blank, the driver sat up and raised his hands. He didn't say a word as he kept his eyes riveted straight ahead.

At Blank  ' command, the man slowly exited the car with both hands in full view. Blank was now standing well off to the left of the Toyota with his flashlight aimed into its front seat. Glancing past the driver, he spotted a beer lying on its side on the floorboard, its contents foaming out onto the carpet. He relaxed a little at the sight of the open beer, but kept his guard up.

Blank kept his light on the driver as he re-holstered and ordered him to come to him. Obediently, the driver stepped forward and handed Blank his driver's license. After frisking the man for weapons and finding none, Blank checked the license and identified the driver as Tim Palmer, a 27-year-old from a small town located many miles from there.
"What are you doing on this lot?" Blank asked.

Palmer started fidgeting as he replied that he was waiting for some friends and had stopped to use the station's pay phone. Blank knew that was a lie. Palmer had never gone near the pay phone. 

He decided to run him for warrants but suspected he might take off on foot. After ordering Palmer to return to his car, he walked backwards to his cruiser, sat down, and tried to run him on his MDT. But NCIC was down, so there wasn't much he could do. He decided to ask for permission to search the Toyota and take it from there.

In the meantime, he noticed Palmer was nervously glancing around in every direction as he sat waiting in the Toyota. Although not particularly alarmed, Blank didn't like what he saw. Becoming increasingly convinced that Palmer intended to run, he lit up the car with his spotlight, headlights and takedown lights.

At first, Palmer turned away from the blazing light, but then he adjusted his inside mirror and fixed his eyes on Blank. Now even more distrustful of Palmer, Blank opened his door to start his approach, only to see Palmer's door also swinging open. Moving quickly to make contact before Palmer could run, Blank stepped out of his car and started forward.

He'd gone barely 10 feet when the alarm bells went off. No fear or panic, but his senses were crying out for greater caution, and he changed his approach. He circled around the back of his cruiser and moved up to the passenger side of the Toyota.

As he stopped alongside the car's right-rear fender and looked inside, every instinct told him Palmer was armed and waiting for him. The man was sitting behind the wheel, hunched forward with both feet firmly planted on the floorboard, his eyes glued to the mirror and his right hand thrust between his legs. His left arm was locked straight down along his left side, pressed down onto the floor next to the open driver's door as he readied himself to spring into action.

Blank's first thought was to go back to his car and call Palmer out, but he would have to retreat across open ground to do that. Confident his position gave him a solid tactical advantage, he drew his gun as he shouted, "Show me your hands, and get outta the car!"

Blank had planned to shoot through the back window if Palmer drew a weapon, but for reasons he still doesn't fully understand, he moved forward and to his right, stopping alongside the passenger door, not more than two feet from the window. Instantly, he realized he'd made a grievous blunder. Grinning with blood lust, Palmer lunged across the seat and shoved a Smith & Wesson Sigma up into firing position. Before Blank could react, the S&W barked flame, driving a 9mm solidly into the center of his chest. The impact knocked Blank back slightly, but his vest stopped the bullet.

Palmer was out of the Toyota a split-second later, firing the gun at him over the roof. There was no other cover nearby, so Blank went down onto one knee behind the front fender to put the Toyota between them. But, at the same instant, two rounds crashed through his left arm, one just above the wrist and the other dead center on the forearm. Another struck him in the left thigh, although he wouldn't become aware of it until later.

Blank was shooting back now, pumping rounds through the windshield into his assailant. Palmer went down immediately, and Blank used the opportunity to seek better cover. The only decent cover nearby was his patrol car, so he started backpedaling in that direction, Glock at the ready and eyes scanning for Palmer's return as he moved. Then, spotting the cruiser out of the corner of one eye, he turned and started to sprint toward it. He had barely completed the turn when Palmer opened fire again. One round missed, but another tore through his left shoulder and exited his left bicep. He kept moving until he reached the back of the car, where he dropped to one knee and got back into the fight.

Palmer was scurrying back and forth down the driver's side of the Toyota, shrieking with rage and stopping sporadically to fire, but Blank was more patient. He held his fire, waited for Palmer's head to pop into view, and then took a shot each time it appeared. Although Blank knew he was getting hits, Palmer seemed impervious to his gunfire.

Blank was also becoming apprehensive about his wounds. The bullet hole in his left wrist was an ugly, swollen mess that made him wonder if he would have enough dexterity to reload, and the one in his thigh was spewing blood all over the back of his cruiser. Believing his femoral artery had been hit, he pressed his left hand down over the wound, but that only caused the blood to shoot out another, previously unseen bullet hole. He feared he would bleed out before he could stop Palmer.

Blank also heard a woman screaming across the street, leading him to believe he may have hit a bystander. He later learned she'd only been screaming in fear, but at the time he could only think of having hurt one of his citizens, and the idea angered him. It also had an unexpected effectit made him focus on the importance of stopping Palmer before someone else got hurt.

With these thoughts came an unexpected calm, followed by a new resolve. Up to this point, he'd been fighting a commendable, though primarily defensive battle. But now, infused with the realization that Palmer had to be stopped and that only he could do it, he went on the offensive. Now the predator, he resolved that Palmer would never leave the parking lot, even if he had to take more hits to stop him.

Blank's gun wasn't empty yet, but he knew better than to take the offensive without reloading. As he ejected the partially empty magazine and slapped in a fresh one, he saw something he hadn't expected. Apparently, Palmer had seen the ejected magazine hit the ground and assumed Blank had either collapsed or run out of ammo. He left the cover of the Toyota, and advanced toward Blank  . Unaware that he was approaching a conscious and fully armed police officer who knew how to capitalize on an opportunity like this, Palmer walked toward the cruiser. Blank waited patiently, tracking the man's approach by watching his feet under the cruiser.

Palmer hesitated when he reached the cruiser's right-front fender, as if to consider moving over to the driver's side. Blank knew he'd have trouble tracking Palmer if he came around that way, so he decided to make his move without delay. He lunged out from behind the car, thrust the Glock up into firing position, and opened fire. His first two rounds hit Palmer center chest, rocking him back on his heels. Palmer flinched as two more rounds hit center mass, and then started backpedaling toward the Toyota. He was still holding his gun, but never raised it to fire.

After reaching the car, Palmer dove over the trunk and dropped out of sight. Blank paused, and then cautiously started forward again. As he moved closer, he spotted Palmer crawling up into the Toyota's front seat and starting the engine.

Blank stopped and fired two rounds through the back window. The first missed, but the second hit Palmer in the upper back, driving his head forward into the steering wheel. That seemed to have done the trick, but then Palmer sat up again, dropped the transmission into reverse, and started backing up. With no time to ponder how Palmer had absorbed so many hits, Blank took aim and emptied the magazine into his assailant.

Palmer rolled over to his right and dropped the gearshift lever into drive, causing the car to lunge forward into a chain link fence a few feet away, where it came to a stop. After watching Palmer long enough to make sure he didn't get up again, Blank called for backup and waited for help to arrive.

Remarkably, Palmer had taken *22 hits* from Blank's .40-caliber Glock, *17 of which had hit center mass.* Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTsconsidered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers availablePalmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream. Although Blank could not have known it, Palmer was wanted for murder in a neighboring state.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 7, 2009)

I'd thought I'd tangled with some kind of terminator after the first clip... sheesh. The officer made some critical mistakes but the amount of ammo pumped into the suspect wasn't one of them.

Photo of the SXT bullet after it hits a target... yuck, food-processor is an apt name for it.


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## arnisador (Jan 7, 2009)

It looks like a shuriken! Sheesh, that's a horror-movie amount of damage to take and keep on going. A good reminder of why structural damage beats pain in (empty-hand) self-defense--a broken leg is a better show-stopper than a bloody nose.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 7, 2009)

I recently read an FBI study on Balistics from the late 80s and the section about the lack of stopping power caused by pain in a "combat" situiation, and the importance of getting hits with ammo that will minimize the amount of time the bad guy has to respond after being hit.

This story is an excellent example of that in practice.


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## Doc (Jan 7, 2009)

arnisador said:


> It looks like a shuriken! Sheesh, that's a horror-movie amount of damage to take and keep on going. A good reminder of why structural damage beats pain in (empty-hand) self-defense--a broken leg is a better show-stopper than a bloody nose.



Unfortunately, this is not unusual. Police are taught to fire center mass. Under those circumstances I would have used the "failure drill," and began firing at his melon. Destroy the computer, and the keyboard ceases to function. 

It's the old argument of shot placement versus kinetic energy dispersal. With the right placement, almost any ammo will do. Without it, and ammo may prove deficient, unless you break something he needs to function.

I've seen guys take multiple hits from a shotgun, get knocked down, and still get up and run only to be found bled out later.


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## tellner (Jan 7, 2009)

There's always the old gunfighter's technique. Aim for the belt buckle and move up from there.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 7, 2009)

I was going to post something on this story but hadn't gotten to it yet...

Bottom line as I see it is that this story just reinforces the fact that pistols are lousy fight stoppers.  Pistols poke holes, that's it...if you don't put 'em right through the heart, aorta, spine, or brain you're probably not going to accomplish anything. 

wonder how long it'll be before someone on this forum makes a comment like: "it would have worked if he had used a .45/.357/whatever"


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## searcher (Jan 7, 2009)

I have to agree that shot placement is extremely important, but in the heat of the encounter, I am only worrying about finding my front sight and make sure it is on the target.   As much as I would like to say somehting witty like, "Two in the body and one in the head," when getting shot at, I am not going to be that focused on pinpoint accuracy.   I don't care how many shots it takes as long as I have enough to get the job done.

And I agree with Tex, my handgun is not my first choice for a fight stopper, but ont he street, I don't find it very feasible to carry my 870 or M4.   Not to mention that here in KS we have CCH not CCW.   My 870 is my go to in my house.  #4 buckshot works much better than a 230gr .45acp round.


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## Tames D (Jan 7, 2009)

Great story and well told. What was the timeline on this gunfight? In other words, how long did the battle last?


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## Cruentus (Jan 7, 2009)

More handgun shooting incidents are stopped by a single center mass shot then not. A few people (Marshall, Sanow, and Fuller) had done some controversial research on the subject, where they looked at incidents around the country and compiled a % that ended in a single shot with a particular round. What made it controversial was the idea of one round is better then another because that round had only a 92% "one stop shot" ratio, while the other round had 95%. And that round over there had only an 82% ratio, so it must be completely worthless, and so on.

Trying to put one bullet against another based on those stats was a useless endeavor because of all the other variables involved (placement on the torso, size/health of person, etc.) made it uncontrolled and therefore unscientific.

However, the fact was that most of the rounds that people use for self-defense were all above 80 and 90 percent if I remember correctly (this was published in a book so I am going by memory). What this does tell us is that a significantly large % of these fights are ending with ONE SHOT. With 2 or 3 shots calculated, the amount of people still fighting are likely almost statistically insignificant. With this data, we can conclude that handguns are indeed effective show stoppers.

But the 80 or so % of fights that ended with one shot in a given year don't grab our attention; what does grab our attention is the few isolated incidents where a person is shot multiple times to the point of ridiculousness before going down. Hell, that grabs my attention too.

So what do these isolated incidents tell us?

What incidences like these reinforce to me is that there are no sure things in a fight. And surly, if a .22, .380, 9mm, .45, 5.56, 7.62, .57, or (insert favorite round here) isn't a sure thing in a fight, then my palm strike, elbow, knife slash, flying side kick, or chi ball isn't going to be a sure thing either.

Just a reminder not to stop fighting until it's over, and never rely on 1 magic totem to get the job done ('like, if he takes me to the ground, I'll just bit em...'), that's all...

C.

PS. He really would have been better off with a .45 though... lol JK


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## KenpoTex (Jan 7, 2009)

searcher said:


> And I agree with Tex, my handgun is not my first choice for a fight stopper, but ont he street, I don't find it very feasible to carry my 870 or M4. ...


 Exactly...handguns are a compromise weapon that we carry because they're easier to conceal and more comfortable to tote around than the long guns.



Cruentus said:


> *What incidences like these reinforce to me is that there are no sure things in a fight.* And surly, if a .22, .380, 9mm, .45, 5.56, 7.62, .57, or (insert favorite round here) isn't a sure thing in a fight, then my palm strike, elbow, knife slash, flying side kick, or chi ball isn't going to be a sure thing either.


 exactly...




			
				Cruentus said:
			
		

> PS. He really would have been better off with a .45 though... lol JK


 *******


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## Carol (Jan 7, 2009)

Cruentus said:


> PS. He really would have been better off with a .45 though... lol JK



Compensate much, Cru?  iratelau  (kidding!)


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## Cruentus (Jan 7, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Compensate much, Cru?  iratelau  (kidding!)



Huh.... he would have been better off with one of these...

http://www.dansdata.com/images/danletters105/vapen.jpg


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## MA-Caver (Jan 7, 2009)

tellner said:


> There's always the old gunfighter's technique. Aim for the belt buckle and move up from there.


Or lower... that'll change anyone's mind I think... :lol: 

Far as "hitting the melon" I think it can be agreed that is a difficult shot at best ... particularly at a moving target and one that is shooting back... not saying it CAN'T be done... just ain't as easy as some might think. 
Ok, no, I'm not speaking from personal experience but putting some thawt into it, I'm guessing that what it is-- a hard shot to take, but I could be wrong. Still it's better to go for center mass because that is the biggest target anyone can present to you. If you got a head shot on someone who isn't moving around much then yeah, take it, shut down that CPU and they're usually outta the game. 
I'm sure the thought must've crossed the officer's mind once or twice during that gun fight... in fact I think he was trying for one when he was down and changing mags and the suspect was peering over the fender of the car and he was taking shots everytime the guy's head appeared... which sorta helps prove my point.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 8, 2009)

Torso hits from handguns don't work that fast....even a hit to the aorta won't necessarily bring incapacitation as fast as we need it in a gun fight.  The best we can hope for a torso hit is to sever the spinal column.  Because of that we repeat as needed until we finally poke enough holes and the suspect stops doing whatever he did to make us shoot him in the first place.  Handgun bullets don't work....so keep shooting until you find one that does......

......then expect the inevitable morons to yell 'Why did they have shoot him so many times?'......but there is no proof against fools.






.......but if it had been a .500 super-mag it would have stopped him in one hit! 

That was for Kenpo!


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## tellner (Jan 8, 2009)

The very best advice I ever heard about handguns in self defense is:



> The only thing you can count on that pistol doing is putting holes in him at range. You'll be better off in the knife fight you were going to get into anyway.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 8, 2009)

tellner said:


> The very best advice I ever heard about handguns in self defense is:



Not really.....one thing that a handgun DOES do at close range very well....CONTACT WOUNDS create much larger wound channels than the bullets do at range....ESPECIALLY when the barrel is pressed in the center of the FACE!  I'll still take a handgun to a knife, deadly underrated as the knife is.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 8, 2009)

The irony is that those who don't begin the gunfight when they should always seem to be the ones who have the most trouble.....

It has become a truism that in a 'real' gunfight we never shoot like we do at the range, and that may generally be true for a great many reasons, most of which are psychological.....but it isn't ALWAYS true.....a trooper I know had to use his pistol in a shooting incident involving an armed gunman....and when the gunman moved to bring his rifle toward the trooper...he fired three rounds at five feet, all three of which hit EXACTLY center-mass, all three penetrated the heart, and the entire grouping could have been covered by a silver dollar! It can be done under combat conditions......what separates him from you or me?  

I believe the main thing, other than his skill and training at arms, is that he has the type of personality that if he believes he's right, there's no room for questioning, he moves on confident that he's right......and that leaves no room for hesitation or psychological distraction......then it's just a simple matter of front sight, PRESS!


We can see the same effect in combat....most men see combat as a life or death struggle of great weight.....there are those, however, who really don't experience that over-whelming feeling.....who are able to view the enemy as prey, little more than shooting ducks!  

A good example of this mindset is provided by Chuck Mawhinney who had the highest confirmed kills of any Marine Sniper in Vietnam, even more than the legendary Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock.  



> "Once I had a Charlie [slang for         Viet Cong] in my scope, it was my job to kill him before he killed me," said         Mawhinney, now 51 and retired from a desk job with the U.S. Forest Service. "I         never looked in their eyes, I never stopped to think about whether the         guy had a wife or kids."
> 
> "It was the ultimate hunting trip:         a man hunting another man who was hunting me," he said. "Don't         talk to me about hunting lions or elephants; they don't fight back with         rifles and scopes. I just loved it. I ate it up." http://www.snipersparadise.com/history/chuck_mawhinney.htm



He once caught a platoon of 16 NVA crossing a river on foot.....he took all 16 with head shots, one after another, front to back so that they wouldn't appreciate how accurate his fire was......in a manner very similar to Alvin York.....taking them back to front shows a lethalness of thought and intent beyond what most people would be thinking.  That goes to show if mere 'survival' is your goal, you're behind the power curve. 


One might point out that the Mawhinney example is a man with a rifle, from concealment......well, then consider the example of Wild Bill Hickok.....one may say that some of his legend is apocryphal, but enough of it is validated to support the notion of Hickok as a cool and deadly opponent......no better example than the Hickok/Tutt duel in Springfield, Mo......in one of the only real examples of the stereotypical movie high noon gunfights, Hickok and Tutt drew down on each other on the street......both firing simultaneously, at a distance considered by most historians to be about 75 yards, Tutt missing entirely......and Hickok's .36 bullet drilling right through Tutt's heart, killing him where he fell!  A single shot fired at 75 yards striking his opponent in the heart, while Hickok was being fired upon himself!  Even if the 75 yards range was exaggerated, even if it were 50 yards or 25 yards......it still demonstrates a cool deliberation under fire, and how that ability translates in to being able to place a lethal bullet shot!


Cool deliberation is a constant trait we see in the history of men who are deadly at arms.....is a train we're born with, or a trait we can be taught?


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## Cruentus (Jan 8, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Cool deliberation is a constant trait we see in the history of men who are deadly at arms.....is a train we're born with, or a trait we can be taught?



I'd like to say taught, but maybe it is a little of both.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 8, 2009)

Wel it's like Wyatt Earp used to say regarding gunfights:

"Take your time, in a hurry".


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## Guardian (Jan 8, 2009)

The bottom line is that the police officer was able to go home (well after the hospital stay for a few probably), but he was alive due to his instincts, training, experiences and the bad guy lay dead.  How many rounds, as freakin many as it takes in my view.


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## arnisador (Jan 8, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Wel it's like Wyatt Earp used to say regarding gunfights:
> 
> "Take your time, in a hurry".



Yes, well-explained in _Unforgiven._


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 8, 2009)

Cruentus said:


> I'd like to say taught, but maybe it is a little of both.


I suspect you're right......some men are born with that kind of cool.....and we know them when we meet them.

But fortunately we can train it to a great degree as well....the modern military is proof positive of that!


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## tellner (Jan 8, 2009)

Nope sgtmac, you're really missing the point here. His advice was to assume that the handgun would not stop the fight and to be ready for the worst. If you get a better result, good. But that's all you can rely on it for.


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## searcher (Jan 8, 2009)

Here is one for Tex:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoW8nHIVuRk&feature=related


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## KenpoTex (Jan 8, 2009)

searcher said:


> Here is one for Tex:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoW8nHIVuRk&feature=related


 
okay, okay...y'all win


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 8, 2009)

Doc said:


> Unfortunately, this is not unusual. Police are taught to fire center mass. Under those circumstances I would have used the "failure drill," and began firing at his melon. Destroy the computer, and the keyboard ceases to function.


 
It's called the Mozambique drill. It's for when your 'doing doesn't do it'.



tellner said:


> There's always the old gunfighter's technique. Aim for the belt buckle and move up from there.


 
That's called the 'zipper' technique. You let the recoil of the weapon bring the sight up a bit for the next shot.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome and well, to keep shooting center mass after the first two or three shots, with still no real change in the attacker attitude, indicates you need to shift fire to either the head or pelvis region. And that is where the Mozambique drill comes in handy. The zipper is for very close range firing.

Deaf


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## thardey (Jan 8, 2009)

Guardian said:


> The bottom line is that the police officer was able to go home (well after the hospital stay for a few probably), but he was alive due to his instincts, training, experiences and the bad guy lay dead. How many rounds, as freakin many as it takes in my view.


 
And his bullet-proof vest. Remeber he was shot center mass first.
Not sure if that helps the rest of us who only wear a t-shirt under our coats.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 9, 2009)

tellner said:


> Nope sgtmac, you're really missing the point here. His advice was to assume that the handgun would not stop the fight and to be ready for the worst. If you get a better result, good. But that's all you can rely on it for.


 If you say so......but what's your back up plan if you fail with your handgun?  Save the last bullet for yourself?

Perhaps better training and shot placement are in order.....FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION!  

I don't think in terms of 'It's not gonna work, it's not gonna work, it's not gonna work'.....it's GONNA work if I have to stick up his *** and pull the trigger!   You may be saying the same thing in a different way, if so then I agree!

Any SOB tries to kill me is going to die.....and if I die instead, you can write my epithet. 

I'm of the opinion that too much negative analysis is paralysis......

And in keeping with theme of the 'Unforgiven'....


> Little Bill: 'A man who will keep his head an' not get rattled under fire...he will kill you like as not.'
> 
> W.W. Beauchamp: 'But if the other fellow is quicker and fires first...'
> 
> ...


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 9, 2009)

thardey said:


> And his bullet-proof vest. Remeber he was shot center mass first.
> Not sure if that helps the rest of us who only wear a t-shirt under our coats.


 In that case I wouldn't wait quite as long as he did to start shooting.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 9, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> It's called the Mozambique drill. It's for when your 'doing doesn't do it'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 All good advice......the Mozambique drill is one I practice fairly often......and the pelvic triangle hit is one we've kicked around for a while.....and I think you're right, it's a good hit for extreme close range.....hit the pelvic triangle and walk up.


I think it's good to point out that the pistol round is an anemic manstopper......but I think it's also possible to make too much of it.  It is anemic, but many men have been successfully neutralized by it in skilled hands.  Perhaps we need to make more of good shot placement as you say......certainly the pistol is no more anemic for humans as a .275 Rigby is for elephants, but Karamojo Bell certainly took scores of elephants with his .275 due to extremely well placed shooting.....and while aspiring to his level of proficiency is aiming a little high, it shouldn't be too much to expect being able to drill an opponent in the apricot at conversational ranges with a handgun.


I bring up Bell for one very good reason.....Bell was a student of his prey and it's anatomy.....he knew PRECISELY where the vital organs rested in the elephants body, and how best to strike them from different angles.  Perhaps that is the key here.....


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 9, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> All good advice......the Mozambique drill is one I practice fairly often......and the pelvic triangle hit is one we've kicked around for a while.....and I think you're right, it's a good hit for extreme close range.....hit the pelvic triangle and walk up.
> 
> 
> I think it's good to point out that the pistol round is an anemic manstopper......but I think it's also possible to make too much of it. It is anemic, but many men have been successfully neutralized by it in skilled hands. Perhaps we need to make more of good shot placement as you say......certainly the pistol is no more anemic for humans as a .275 Rigby is for elephants, but Karamojo Bell certainly took scores of elephants with his .275 due to extremely well placed shooting.....and while aspiring to his level of proficiency is aiming a little high, it shouldn't be too much to expect being able to drill an opponent in the apricot at conversational ranges with a handgun.
> ...


 

Speed is fine, Power is fine, but ACCURACY is FINAL.


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## LawDog (Jan 9, 2009)

Hind sight is great but when something like this comes down you have to take the situation that you are in and,
*cover / concealment,
*protect yourself while being careful of bystanders,
*do not use a rapid suppression fire, conserve your ammo, most PO's only carry 2 - 3 mags,
*if possible radio for backup.
Everyone absorbs impacting trama differently, alcohol and drugs do play a part in the way a person feels / responds to this trama. In some cases it is the suspects sheer will power that keeps him / her going. In Nam I actually saw Charlie take a full mag. of 5.56 Nato and he still kept on coming. All of the impacted rounds were center of mass and that was the problem.
Today both the bad guys and good guys are taught to double and triple tap when shooting. The original reason being the possibility of someone wearing a vest. If a round hit the vest the suspect or PO he will feel the heavy trama of the impact through his vest and this will put him off balance. A second center of mass round will usually put him / her down because of the extreme pain from the trama. In some cases the second round would be a head shot or below the vest line into the groin area.
If you see a person continue to charge after a few center of mass hits then you should,
*take head shots,
*groin shots,
*leg shots.
Remember, duing a shoot out things happen way to fast and you have but split seconds to react and set up a loose game plan that fits your own situation and not the classic "text book" response.
:rules:


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 9, 2009)

Listen to LawDog. His are the words of wisdom.

If after 2 center-mass hits the customer is still not interested in going down, additional center-mass hits are unlikely to change his mind. Move to the CNS( "Aim for the "T") or the movement structure( pelvic girdle/belt buckle)


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 9, 2009)

LawDog said:


> If you see a person continue to charge after a few center of mass hits then you should,
> *take head shots,
> *groin shots,
> *leg shots.


 
And this should be drilled in, just like malfunction drills (after all, it IS a malfuction!) Like tap-rack-bang, fire a few COM and if no go, shift fire.

Deaf


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## chinto (Feb 4, 2009)

Boys and girls there is a reason why the special forces and other people who do a lot of close quarters gunfights carry a .45 acp weapon for that kind of work.  the .40 does not have the same wound characteristics that that old .45 does.  I would suggest that when its NOT about bringing them back alive, ( ya i do expect cops to bring them in alive for trial, and die in the attempt perhaps some times...but that is the job of a peace officer!  If don't like it, find a different job. )  that the military chooses when allowed to at the sharp end the old dependable  .45 acp  for the job.


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