# Turtle not so useless?



## Formosa Neijia (Aug 5, 2008)

I was thinking of taking some of the advice here and not making turtle a part of my game. Then i found Eduardo Telles. Here's a guy that's making turtle work, albeit from a BJJ perspective. Take a look:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls17VN8Ll3g

Maybe it's just me, but this seems an ideal way for judoka to keep their skills and have something that could cross over into sport BJJ or other competitions. Or they could just use these skills in randori.

Thoughts?


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## MA-Caver (Aug 5, 2008)

I don't believe *any* technique should be considered useless. No matter what the art. 
Now there are times when it cannot be executed or it cannot be used. Concept of JKD is to "throw it away" and find something else. It does not mean "throw it away completely", but rather simply, for that moment in that particular fight/match/whatever. 
Since 99% of all fights go to the ground (eventually) and the popular goal is to get on top of your opponent to gain the upper hand this tech/move seems invaluable to turn the tables as it were. 

Nothing in Martial Arts is ever "useless".


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## arnisador (Aug 5, 2008)

There's a time and a place for turtling. But, I don't think I'd make it a centerpiece of my strategy!


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## zDom (Aug 6, 2008)

THIS guy has the right idea.

I think the objections to turtling (at least MY objections to turtling) is that some competitors simply turtle up and wait for officials to stand them back up.

Looking at it from a self-defense perspective instead of competition (I'm a HKD guy, that's what I do ... ), there may be times that you end up in a turtle position, 

_but you can't simply STAY there exposing vulnerable body parts like the back of your neck, the rest of your spine, and kidneys._

I'd love to work the stuff shown on this tape, though, as it is a way OUT of a bad position!


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## Steve (Aug 6, 2008)

I can't view the video from work, but I'm looking forward to checking it out.


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## lemon_meringue (Aug 6, 2008)

I would always be very hesitant to give my opponent my back, but this guy certainly seems to have found a way to make turtleing up work. I still don't think I would use it "on purpose," but if I found myself in that position then some of those moves are definitely worth learning.



MA-Caver said:


> Since 99% of all fights go to the ground (eventually)



I've heard that statistic many times before, but I was just wondering- where is it from and how did they come up with it?


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## Empty Hands (Aug 7, 2008)

Well, the turtle is more useful than lying flat on your stomach!


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## Nolerama (Aug 7, 2008)

thanks for the vid!

we've been rolling with the concept that at some point, you're going to find yourself in a turtle position.

so we train escapes and sweeps pertaining to turtling.

i've been seeing it as a way to break up rhythm when rolling... or set it up as an entrance to a trap. i'm not very adept at using the turtle position like that, but i can definitely see it.

besides, learning those escapes simply adds to the arsenal.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 7, 2008)

The turtle is like any position in that you have to know how to work from it.  It can be effectively used if briefly in a grappling match.  In a self defense situation well it is dangerous to expose the neck, spine, kidney's, etc.  So if you do turtle my advice is to use it in transition.


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## arnisador (Aug 7, 2008)

It's also dangerous to expose the liver, groin, solar plexus, ribs, etc. There's no winning. My understanding is that exposing your back is, in the end, preferable to exposing you belly, if it comes down to that.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 7, 2008)

arnisador said:


> It's also dangerous to expose the liver, groin, solar plexus, ribs, etc. There's no winning. My understanding is that exposing your back is, in the end, preferable to exposing you belly, if it comes down to that.



The advantage of being face on with an opponent is that you can at least see what is coming and defend against it.  In the turtle that can be really hard.


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## arnisador (Aug 7, 2008)

Agreed--I was thinking of when a person was too tired/injured to keep fighting. If you can still fight, you need to face your opponent!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 7, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Agreed--I was thinking of when a person was too tired/injured to keep fighting. If you can still fight, you need to face your opponent!



Gotcha!


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## jarrod (Aug 8, 2008)

i think i remember the previous thread regarding the turtle.  the turtle position itself is not bad, but i would argue that stalling in any position is.  you're seeing it more in MMA too, a guy closes up his guard, looks at the ref, & waits for the stand up.

look at kazushi sakuraba for some great examples of turning your back but maintaining an offense.  

jf


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## Aaron Fields (Aug 8, 2008)

Funny this topic has come up. I have a been asked to film some stuff on using the turtle as a transition-position. I have a very strong turtle, which I use often, as position from which to move on towards something more aggresive. 

(As a starting point the turtle should never be flat.Elbows on the inside of hips, hands down, shoulders raised to hide the neck.)

As I was coached, the turtle is a position that "you use as a stop before regaining control." Most folks who use it stall, which is in truth just delaying their doom. The key is to not stay there long.  In addition you are attempting to get the man on-top moving and out of position.
If you set up a Coleman camp stove and a tent in the turtle, you will get got. 

Once I get the stuff filmed I'll post the link. 

We call our turtle "Yertle," since he is the king of turtles.

Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org


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## Formosa Neijia (Aug 8, 2008)

I think the use of turtle as a trasition is the way to go. I haven't seen his actual DVDs but I doubt that Telles is saying to stay there in turtle. He obviously teaches a lot of sweeps and submissions from the position.

As to turtle being useless in self-defense, I couldn't disagree more. I think you're likely at some point in ground grappling to find yourself (at least momentarily) in turtle position, usually trying to sit up out of an awkward position. I agree that it isn't the best way to get up off the ground, but in some situations it seems very likely. Therefore, not training it all seems like a mistake to me.

But then perhaps people just train never being in the position. Fair enough.

So is this a transition position for judo guys to work if they want to enter sport BJJ contests?


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