# Military drone pilots to get medals?



## Makalakumu (Jul 17, 2012)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...to-get-medals/2012/07/09/gJQAF2PhYW_blog.html



> The Pentagon is considering awarding a Distinguished Warfare Medal to  drone pilots who work on military bases often far removed from the  battlefield.
> 
> 
> Pentagon officials have been briefed on the medals unique concept, Charles V. Mugno, head of the Army Institute of Heraldry, told a recent meeting of the Commission of Fine Arts, according to a report in Coin World by our former colleague Bill McAllister.
> ...



Thoughts?


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## Big Don (Jul 17, 2012)

It is certainly something that is going to have to be addressed. Should a drone pilot's contributions be overlooked merely because of his location?
Should bomber crews who fly over an area at 40000 feet be lauded? What about crewmen on a carrier 100 miles out to sea?


> but Mugnos  institute has completed six alternate designs for commission approval.


 They ought to look twoards the British DFC, that thing is HIGH Visibility... ours is much more subdued.


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## Tez3 (Jul 18, 2012)

Big Don said:


> It is certainly something that is going to have to be addressed. Should a drone pilot's contributions be overlooked merely because of his location?
> Should bomber crews who fly over an area at 40000 feet be lauded? What about crewmen on a carrier 100 miles out to sea?
> They ought to look twoards the British DFC, that thing is HIGH Visibility... ours is much more subdued.




Is that a criticism of the DFC something which you have to do something quite out of the ordinary to win and whose holders are some of the most distinguished and brave servicemen and women there are?


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## Big Don (Jul 18, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Is that a criticism of the DFC something which you have to do something quite out of the ordinary to win and whose holders are some of the most distinguished and brave servicemen and women there are?


Not in the least. On the contrary, if you are going to decorate servicemembers, by God, make the decoration Beautiful and BRIGHT.
Our military awards aren't too aesthetically pleasing, and they should be.


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## Tez3 (Jul 18, 2012)

Big Don said:


> Not in the least. On the contrary, if you are going to decorate servicemembers, by God, make the decoration Beautiful and BRIGHT.
> Our military awards aren't too aesthetically pleasing, and they should be.



Ah, true enough. About 260 Americans were awarded the DFC in World War 2, the medals are worth around $7000 they reckon in monetary terms, though they should be priceless to the recipents, famlies and descendants.
One woman has been awarded it so far http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-heroic-helicopter-rescue-mission-Basra.html


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## sfs982000 (Jul 18, 2012)

I don't think that the drone pilots efforts should be over looked and they should be recognized for their contributions/efforts.  Of course I do agree that there has to be a clear process as to how those awards are approved and handed out.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 18, 2012)

There is a National Defense Ribbon that is awarded to all servicemen during time of war.  That is all that they require or deserve.  If they stand no chance of eating hot lead, they have not performed any manner of heroics.  No risk, no medal.

What they're doing is considering the future career prospects of these remotely-piloted drones and thinking that no one is going to want to be one if it means their chest is bare of medals in the next 20 years, whilst they compete with real pilots and other war heroes for promotions in a smaller military.  A smart career person would reject any assignment that does not put them in harm's way or garner them a chest full of medals during time of war - they simply won't be promoted going forward, so no career.  I see what they're trying to do here, but I think it's ********.


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## cdunn (Jul 18, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> There is a National Defense Ribbon that is awarded to all servicemen during time of war. That is all that they require or deserve. If they stand no chance of eating hot lead, they have not performed any manner of heroics. No risk, no medal.
> 
> What they're doing is considering the future career prospects of these remotely-piloted drones and thinking that no one is going to want to be one if it means their chest is bare of medals in the next 20 years, whilst they compete with real pilots and other war heroes for promotions in a smaller military. A smart career person would reject any assignment that does not put them in harm's way or garner them a chest full of medals during time of war - they simply won't be promoted going forward, so no career. I see what they're trying to do here, but I think it's ********.



Bull, yes, but the bull is apparently centered on the military's promotion structure. While I inherently agree with you, I wish you good luck in making it right.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 18, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> There is a National Defense Ribbon that is awarded to all servicemen during time of war. That is all that they require or deserve. If they stand no chance of eating hot lead, they have not performed any manner of heroics. No risk, no medal.
> 
> What they're doing is considering the future career prospects of these remotely-piloted drones and thinking that no one is going to want to be one if it means their chest is bare of medals in the next 20 years, whilst they compete with real pilots and other war heroes for promotions in a smaller military. A smart career person would reject any assignment that does not put them in harm's way or garner them a chest full of medals during time of war - they simply won't be promoted going forward, so no career. I see what they're trying to do here, but I think it's ********.



I can agree with much of what you say. Drone pilots are from what I hear, very much liked by the combat arms. But so are helicopter pilots and crew. And they are where there are likely to be bullets. I might see a ribbon for a certain length of assignment, or number of missions 'flown,' as opposed to an actual medal, with perhaps bronze service stars for subsequent same length assignments or missions.

But I haven't convinced myself that is proper. I agree medals and ribbons simply to enhance promotion possibilities of people who don't go to combat zones is a little cheap. Especially since it is usually very easy to volunteer and go to a combat zone.  Still, it seems every war brings out rear area types that know the lessons of the last war as far as promotions. There was a one year time frame in Vietnam that produced something like seven campaigns. 

I see troops come back from Iraq and Afganistan with what appears to be an awful lot of decorations. But I am not ready to put them down too quickly either. I see some of them come back with six and eight bars for six months combat zone service each bar. Some of them have put in a lot of time in a combat zone(s).


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 18, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> I can agree with much of what you say. Drone pilots are from what I hear, very much liked by the combat arms. But so are helicopter pilots and crew. And they are where there are likely to be bullets. I might see a ribbon for a certain length of assignment, or number of missions 'flown,' as opposed to an actual medal, with perhaps bronze service stars for subsequent same length assignments or missions.
> 
> But I haven't convinced myself that is proper. I agree medals and ribbons simply to enhance promotion possibilities of people who don't go to combat zones is a little cheap. Especially since it is usually very easy to volunteer and go to a combat zone.  Still, it seems every war brings out rear area types that know the lessons of the last war as far as promotions. There was a one year time frame in Vietnam that produced something like seven campaigns.
> 
> I see troops come back from Iraq and Afganistan with what appears to be an awful lot of decorations. But I am not ready to put them down too quickly either. I see some of them come back with six and eight bars for six months combat zone service each bar. Some of them have put in a lot of time in a combat zone(s).



I have full respect for anyone who has served in harm's way.  But if a person is a REMF or a POG who did not risk being killed in any way, shape, or form, they don't deserve a medal for courage - IMHO.  We need people at the rear as well as grunts and pilots, no doubt.  But let's not pretend that the guy flying a drone is liable to end up executed by the Taliban on the six o'clock news.


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## Steve (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm with Bill.  I'm proud of my service, but I'll be the first to admit that as an AMMO troop, I was not exactly in harm's way, even when deployed to the Persian Gulf.  My job was to ensure that the bombs and missiles our fighters carried functioned as designed.  It was our pilots who put their lives on the line.

There's a big difference between that and my brother, who was a door gunner in Operation Just Cause, and then with the 101st during Desert Storm.  

I was eligible for all of the normal medals and such (like Achievement or Commendation medals), but I would never suggest that I did anything worthy of any recognition for valor or heroism.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 19, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have full respect for anyone who has served in harm's way. But if a person is a REMF or a POG who did not risk being killed in any way, shape, or form, they don't deserve a medal for courage - IMHO. We need people at the rear as well as grunts and pilots, no doubt. But let's not pretend that the guy flying a drone is liable to end up executed by the Taliban on the six o'clock news.



I agree with that.  But that is one reason I was giving thought to a ribbon rather than a medal, even though not all medals are for heroism.  It might be more appropriate for a badge, such as a marksmanship badge.

Steve - if you were in the Air Force and even went to the gulf area, I salute you.  I know a retired Air Force man who seems to have gone to great lenghts to avoid getting assigned to any part of that area of the world.  He was lamenting that he was told if he only spent one day there he could have gotten more benefits and decorations.  He figured he could have taken a flight in one evening, and left promptly the next day.  Disgusting in my opinion.

In the Army, one had to spend at least 30 days to wear a combat patch, or combat badge (CIB), or get benifits for assignment to a combat area (unless medivaced sooner).  Does that sound right, only one day in a combat area?  Or was he misinformed?


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 19, 2012)

In the Gulf War aka ODS (* Shield and Storm *), the Navy gave out an award (medal) for those who served on ships in the theater even if they never saw any action. A friend of mine called his , "The CNN Medal". He watched the action on TV while he did his job and made sure his men did their job.


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## Tez3 (Jul 19, 2012)

Here's ours http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mos...medal-Britains-military-awards-explained.html

I have the GSM (Northern Ireland) . My other half also has that and the South Atlantic medal as well as Long Service and Good Conduct ( RAF)


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## Steve (Jul 19, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> I agree with that.  But that is one reason I was giving thought to a ribbon rather than a medal, even though not all medals are for heroism.  It might be more appropriate for a badge, such as a marksmanship badge.
> 
> Steve - if you were in the Air Force and even went to the gulf area, I salute you.  I know a retired Air Force man who seems to have gone to great lenghts to avoid getting assigned to any part of that area of the world.  He was lamenting that he was told if he only spent one day there he could have gotten more benefits and decorations.  He figured he could have taken a flight in one evening, and left promptly the next day.  Disgusting in my opinion.
> 
> In the Army, one had to spend at least 30 days to wear a combat patch, or combat badge (CIB), or get benifits for assignment to a combat area (unless medivaced sooner).  Does that sound right, only one day in a combat area?  Or was he misinformed?


Honestly, I have no idea.  I wasn't ambitious, so I didn't pursue any kind of overt recognition.  I was content to travel as much as possible and enjoy myself.  

I was there for 6 months, but full disclosure, I worked at a bomb dump in Abu Dhabi, pretty far away from anything.  Also, I was there from October, 91 to April 92, so most everything was finished.  We were doing 100% inspection on all of the munitions because they were very poorly managed during combat (things like fuses packed in sand and multiple stages of an explosive chain stored in the same building.)  During the heavy fighting in Desert Storm, I worked largely at the rail head in Morbach, Germany loading munitions onto trains that were headed eventually into the combat theater.  

I have no valor medals or anything.  I have a SW Asia Service Medal, 2 overseas short tours and one overseas long tour, along with a single Achievement medal and a few miscellaneous ribbons.  Not too bad for a single term enlistment.  

In contrast, my brother has all sorts of medals and they're all well deserved.  I have several other family members who have earned various medals for valor.  My great uncle was actually awarded the Distinguished Service Cross.  A true hero, there.  

Ultimately, I have no problem with medals for serving in a particular theater, regardless of job.  The SW Asia Service Medal got me discounts on tuition in college and is my ticket into the VFW someday.  But there is a clear distinction between a medal that documents one's service in a particular theater, and a medal that documents acts of particular valor.


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 19, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> There is a National Defense Ribbon that is awarded to all servicemen during time of war.  That is all that they require or deserve.  If they stand no chance of eating hot lead, they have not performed any manner of heroics.  No risk, no medal.
> 
> What they're doing is considering the future career prospects of these remotely-piloted drones and thinking that no one is going to want to be one if it means their chest is bare of medals in the next 20 years, whilst they compete with real pilots and other war heroes for promotions in a smaller military.  A smart career person would reject any assignment that does not put them in harm's way or garner them a chest full of medals during time of war - they simply won't be promoted going forward, so no career.  I see what they're trying to do here, but I think it's ********.



What if it were more on the level of an ARCOM or an MSM?  these don't necessarily designate combat service. They can be awarded for non-combat missions. And it would be able to show their contributions to the mission.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 19, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> What if it were more on the level of an ARCOM or an MSM?  these don't necessarily designate combat service. They can be awarded for non-combat missions. And it would be able to show their contributions to the mission.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



Sorry, that doesn't work for me.  ARCOMs and MSMs are for commendation for a job very well done or exceptionally well done.  The fact that a drone pilot is only doing the job he was trained to do doesn't qualify for me.  The more I think of a badge like sharpshooter the more I like it.  I don't even like the idea of a badge like the parachute badge or even air assault.  Give them a badge for so many successful flight missions, and hang it off the pocket flap.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 20, 2012)

> The Pentagon is considering awarding a Distinguished Warfare Medal to drone pilots who work on military bases often far removed from the battlefield.



So playing video games all those years may actually pay off in a real-life medal?! 

I neither support nor oppose this, but if they're going to be fair then they need to consider making "job-specific" medals for everyone. Even the ammo loaders, cooks, and so on. 

Actually, being an ammo loader is a much more life threatening job if you think about it... 

Just throwin' that out there.


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## seasoned (Jul 20, 2012)

Sorry, in a big hurry. This was on my mind this morning.
Anybody in the military deserves what ever they are allotted. Over the years the fighting person has lost respect, funding, and very short handed for the job they are required to do. The looming reward in this day and age is the loss of body parts. 
I served so I can thak on years ago, and my son serves now so I can talk.......

Thanks for your service


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 20, 2012)

seasoned said:


> Sorry, in a big hurry. This was on my mind this morning.
> Anybody in the military deserves what ever they are allotted. Over the years the fighting person has lost respect, funding, and very short handed for the job they are required to do. The looming reward in this day and age is the loss of body parts.
> I served so I can thak on years ago, and my son serves now so I can talk.......
> 
> Thanks for your service



As a big sweeping over-simplification, I can sort of support that. But where it falls down for me in the discussion in this thread is that there is a difference between those who serve in a combat zone and those who don't (especially when they make job or assignment choices to lessen or prevent them being in a dangerous area). Then in a combat zone, there is a difference between those who are engaged in actual combat, or at least may be unexpectedly, and those who sit in large combat support bases with little to no expectation of having enemy fire directed at them. But at least many of those are probably more subject to ememy action.

And to be fair, where do the drone pilots work from? I don't know. I have heard both in the zone of operations, and safely tucked away hundreds or thousands of miles from any enemy danger. Is it both, or only one? And are they authorized theater medals, such as for service in Afganistan? A Navy tanker crewman serving off-shore who never saw Iraq, but supported the operations of its carrier task force, and maybe even Afganistan operations, probably qualified for ribbons for those actions. Perhaps that is the answer for the drone pilots even if they aren't in theater. But I think I am still more in favor of a badge like a marksman badge, with certain qualifications needing to be met to continue wear, or successful completion of a certain amount of missions.

I think the military has tended to gain more respect in an all volunteer military in recent years. But one way to loose respect is to be seen as trying to gain award of medals and ribbons that are not deserved, especially those for valor, or service in combat areas.

BTW, for what it is worth, you are to  be commended for your service to your country, and your son as well.  You are more to be respected for keeping your chin up where your son is concerned.  My daughter was in the only combat arm open to women for the last Iraqi conflict.  She was deployed to Turkey, which didn't bother me much.  When it looked like her unit would be deployed to Israel, I was more concerned.  Hang tough sir!

Just my thoughts.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 20, 2012)

It's been a number of years since my service... but now that I think about it... it never came up in regards to the missle combat crews (those are the guys with the magic keys) I worked with. Of course, they never turned those magic keys... probably a good thing... and the drone pilots actually are more "actively" involved in combat... not sure if that's "apples to apples" or not. 

Interesting that it has become an issue though. Back then, I don't think those guys would've ever entertained the thought in the first place.They were more than happy to let us "grunts" take the physical risks as they sat behind a huge vault door way below ground. 

Perhaps it's just another reflection of an entitlement minded culture where everyone grew up getting a trophy just for showing up???


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## Makalakumu (Jul 20, 2012)

I read an article in the Army Times that basically stated that the use of drones will replace many combat functions that men now perform. They showed a picture of a "combat drone" prototype that could be used to engage enemy soldiers. Perhaps this is just a reflection of the changing nature of service? Perhaps putting yourself in harms way will become increasingly rare in combat?


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 20, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Sorry, that doesn't work for me.  ARCOMs and MSMs are for commendation for a job very well done or exceptionally well done.  The fact that a drone pilot is only doing the job he was trained to do doesn't qualify for me.  The more I think of a badge like sharpshooter the more I like it.  I don't even like the idea of a badge like the parachute badge or even air assault.  Give them a badge for so many successful flight missions, and hang it off the pocket flap.



I got an ARCOM for doing the job I was trained to do and doing it very well.

So are you telling me that if a guy pilots a drone, identifies hostiles, maybe even takes them out, and brings a lot of Intel into the fight, AND does it with a high degree of skill, that doesn't merit an ARCOM?  

I would have to disagree. The vast majority of ARCOMs awarded are for doing one's job very well. 


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Steve (Jul 20, 2012)

celtic_crippler said:


> So playing video games all those years may actually pay off in a real-life medal?!
> 
> I neither support nor oppose this, but if they're going to be fair then they need to consider making "job-specific" medals for everyone. Even the ammo loaders, cooks, and so on.
> 
> ...


What about the guys who assembled, disassembled, guarded, stored, and delivered the AMMO?  I was a 461.  The loaders were 462s.  I want a medal, dammit!


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## Tez3 (Jul 20, 2012)

Steve said:


> What about the guys who assembled, disassembled, guarded, stored, and delivered the AMMO? I was a 461. The loaders were 462s. I want a medal, dammit!




Were you an armourer? My brother in law was, both in the RAF and Navy, went to the Falklands with the Harriers, he worked on the ejection seats then as it needs an armourer to deal with them.


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## Steve (Jul 20, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Were you an armourer? My brother in law was, both in the RAF and Navy, went to the Falklands with the Harriers, he worked on the ejection seats then as it needs an armourer to deal with them.


I would say not.  That sounds like a cool job, but I was this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMMO_(U.S._Air_Force)  Things were a little different when I was in.  For example, I went to tech school in Denver at Lowry, AFB, and when I was in, the STAMP bases were Medina, AFB (a satellite of Kelly, AFB) in San Antonio, and Hill AFB in Ogden, Utah.  

I worked in a few different shops including Conventional Maintenance, the Missile Shop and also Storage and Handling (a lot of forklift and truck driving in that one.)  My experience on the forklift is why I ended up loading the rail cars for 16 hour stretches at the railhead in Morbach, and also ended up deployed to Saudi during the 100% reconstitution of the munitions in the bomb dump out in Abu Dhabi.  

Truth is, it was a fun job, but not very difficult.


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## Tez3 (Jul 20, 2012)

Steve said:


> I would say not. That sounds like a cool job, but I was this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMMO_(U.S._Air_Force) Things were a little different when I was in. For example, I went to tech school in Denver at Lowry, AFB, and when I was in, the STAMP bases were Medina, AFB (a satellite of Kelly, AFB) in San Antonio, and Hill AFB in Ogden, Utah.
> 
> I worked in a few different shops including Conventional Maintenance, the Missile Shop and also Storage and Handling (a lot of forklift and truck driving in that one.) My experience on the forklift is why I ended up loading the rail cars for 16 hour stretches at the railhead in Morbach, and also ended up deployed to Saudi during the 100% reconstitution of the munitions in the bomb dump out in Abu Dhabi.
> 
> Truth is, it was a fun job, but not very difficult.



RAF armourers, ( army ones there too but ignore them lol) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armourer

thought you'd like Lord Trenchard's quote though.. _"The founder of the RAF, Lord Trenchard, held armourers in high esteem, saying "without armament, there is no Air Force."
_


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## ChrisT (Jul 26, 2012)

sfs982000 said:


> I don't think that the drone pilots efforts should be over looked and they should be recognized for their contributions/efforts.  Of course I do agree that there has to be a clear process as to how those awards are approved and handed out.



I agree with that. All should get their reward somehow. Instead of medals I think one could invest the money into something more useful and more valuable. If someone works in aviation i think a pilots watch might be a proper gift. The Breitling watches, for example the Breitling Co-Pilot Top Time is a beautiful example. After all, these people identify with their job and that's a very nice recognition.
Regards,


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## Scott T (Jul 26, 2012)

If drone operation is just joysticks and buttons, the job should be given to the wounded warriors who are no longer fit for active ground, air and naval duties due to injuries (leg amputees come to mind). Seems to me that they have already earned their medals and it keeps them in the military if they choose to stay.


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## jks9199 (Jul 26, 2012)

ChrisT said:


> I agree with that. All should get their reward somehow. Instead of medals I think one could invest the money into something more useful and more valuable. If someone works in aviation i think a pilots watch might be a proper gift. The Breitling watches, for example the Breitling Co-Pilot Top Time is a beautiful example. After all, these people identify with their job and that's a very nice recognition.
> Regards,



It's not the same form of recognition as a medal within the military.  Medals carry weight in a variety of circumstances including promotion and training selections.



Scott T said:


> If drone operation is just joysticks and buttons, the job should be given to the wounded warriors who are no longer fit for active ground, air and naval duties due to injuries (leg amputees come to mind). Seems to me that they have already earned their medals and it keeps them in the military if they choose to stay.



Interesting idea.


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## Instructor (Jul 26, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> There is a National Defense Ribbon that is awarded to all servicemen during time of war.  That is all that they require or deserve.  If they stand no chance of eating hot lead, they have not performed any manner of heroics.  No risk, no medal.
> 
> What they're doing is considering the future career prospects of these remotely-piloted drones and thinking that no one is going to want to be one if it means their chest is bare of medals in the next 20 years, whilst they compete with real pilots and other war heroes for promotions in a smaller military.  A smart career person would reject any assignment that does not put them in harm's way or garner them a chest full of medals during time of war - they simply won't be promoted going forward, so no career.  I see what they're trying to do here, but I think it's ********.




I would jump at a chance to be a UAV pilot!  Also I am not sure I like the derisive tone of your post Bill.  Hundreds and hundreds of military people spend their entire careers in support roles far from combat, it doesn't mean they are not at risk or in danger.  For example some people work on the deck of an aircraft carrier.  Even though they are not in combat they have a very, very, dangerous job.


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