# What type of sword to use for training



## Pfabrizi (May 10, 2006)

So far, I have been using wooden swords and i will continue to use them, but I was wondering if training with a heavier or longer sword would be better than just using a normal length bokken? And does it matter if a different type of sword was used at times or would that be bad for technique reasons? feel free to answer, or post other factors that could be discussed further.


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## mantis (May 10, 2006)

assumptions:
1. i study a chinese style of MA (straight sword, and broadsword) and have no information on japanese swords. 
2. i do not quite know how bokken is used. is it for slashing like a broadsword, or should it be precise like a straigh sword. 

reply: 

i was adivced before I move to a real sword, or a heavy sword, or any metal sword, that i tie a small shash that dangles from the bottom of the sword.  the goal was to do the forms (katas) with a fast flow without having this sash tangle around my hand.  after i become good enough to do this, then i can move to a real sword.

i'd say the weight doesnt matter too much, but what matters is your speed and precision.  

last thing i want to say is i know someone who cut his calf practicing katana. so please watch out.  and.. what's wrong with a forged sword?


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## Gemini (May 10, 2006)

I think it depends on what you're looking to accomplish. From a beginner's pov, I think consistency is your best bet. Because every sword has a different weight and feel to it, I'm not of the opinion this would be in your best interest. Just my take.


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## Pfabrizi (May 10, 2006)

Well, I have used a wooden broadsword a few times and I found it remotely similar to using a bokken, but I would think a straight sword would be a little more similar because the bokken is used for slashing and stabbing as well, I would figure that the straight sword is used similarly?

And about the forged sword, do you mean basically a metal sword with no edge?


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## Pfabrizi (May 10, 2006)

By the way, sounds like a very useful  training technique and a good way to make sure you dont cut off your fingers when you move on to using a live blade!


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## Mcura (May 10, 2006)

When I first started in Armizare, I used a wooden waster because that was what was available.  When aluminum swords came out (first from an outside source, then made by club members), the switch was immediate.  Aluminum mimics steel in handling, weight, balance, and vibration/harmonics.  You can bind blade-to-blade, something that wood doesn't necessarily do (it bounces).

For safety's sake, the blades are rounded and blunted.  However, you can still receive a hefty blow from a "safe" blade, particularly at the hands.  Thus it's become a big part of training to practice with absolute control, at all times.


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## Andrew Green (May 10, 2006)

Pfabrizi said:
			
		

> So far, I have been using wooden swords and i will continue to use them, but I was wondering if training with a heavier or longer sword would be better than just using a normal length bokken? And does it matter if a different type of sword was used at times or would that be bad for technique reasons? feel free to answer, or post other factors that could be discussed further.



Proper sword for the drill you are doing.

Dull bladed for Iaido type stuff, at least when new.  Bokken for most kata type stuff, either one person or two.  Blade only when you know what you are doing and are told by an instructor to start using it. Shinai for sparring and drills where you are whacking people.  Live blade for practice cutting, IF you know what you are doing well enough not to hurt anyone.

And if you are using a live blade for anything, ever, get a good one.  Not the cheap economy ones, too many stories of those breaking and people and property getting damaged.

If you where doing western fencing you'd want a fencing sword.  Tai chi, a tai chi sword, and well, you get the idea.

What you are doing in training will determine what you should be using


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## Swordlady (May 11, 2006)

What style of sword art are you taking (or planning to take)?  Because that will determine what kind of sword you would use, and also the sword's specs.

For example, different JSA require differing tsuka (handle) length, according to the sword grip.  Nami Ryu utilizes a wide grip.  In contrast, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (which I'm currently practicing) uses a close hand grip.  And since YSKR also has some left-handed draws (the swords are always worn on the left), the blade length also needs to be suitable to the practioner's height and arm span.

Depending on your sensei, you may be allowed to start off with a live blade right away for solo kata (my sensei actually prefers his students to work with shinken as soon as possible).  Or the sensei may prefer for you to wait until you achieve a certain skill level before allowing you to work with a shinken.

And as it was already mentioned, you would NOT be using live blades in partnered drills or kenjutsu.  Advanced students may perhaps use DULLED blades on occasion in those partnered drills or kata, but for the majority of the time, you would use bokken when working with another person.


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## Pfabrizi (May 11, 2006)

I'm planning to take Kenjuitsu or Kendo but still not completely sure. I definitely wouldn't use a live blade for sparring, and for now (until I get an instructor) probably not even for solo work. I was also wondering because I make my own wooden swords and I like to make bigger swords so I wasn't really sure if practicing with them would affect technique or anything.


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## Andrew Green (May 11, 2006)

hold it in your right hand and let it hang, if it's draggin on the ground it's too long


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## Pfabrizi (May 11, 2006)

The Aluminum practice swords, what type of swords are they, or do they come in any type of sword?


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## Charles Mahan (May 11, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> hold it in your right hand and let it hang, if it's draggin on the ground it's too long


 
That kinda depends on the school.  If I did that with my shinken the tip would hit the ground near the toes of my feet.  It doesn't even come close to swinging freely.  I could easily manage another half inch or so.  Another 2 inches is quite possible, although somethings get a little tricky at that lenght without regular practice.

Pfabrizi,
I think the Aluminum  practice swords that are being referred to are iaito.  They are for all practical intents and purposes the same as katana, with the exception that they are not sharp, and will not stand up to contact.  They were invented to get around certain Japanese legislation which limits the number of steel swords Japanese smiths can make, which led to a big supply and demand problem when the number of folks interested in Iaido practice started picking up a few decades ago.  As Iaito are made of non-ferrous alloys, they are not subject to the same production quotas.


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## Mcura (May 11, 2006)

http://www.swordcrafts.com/

This is the website for my club's source for aluminum training weapons.  They'll stand up to quite a lot of abuse when it's aluminum vs. aluminum.  However, they'll probably not withstand working with blunted steel swords.


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## Grenadier (May 12, 2006)

Pfabrizi said:
			
		

> I was also wondering because I make my own wooden swords and I like to make bigger swords so I wasn't really sure if practicing with them would affect technique or anything.


 
In my school's kobudo classes, we generally use "standard" bokken for drills, sometimes going bokken to bokken for contact drills as well.  We'll also use the bamboo shinai for contact drills.  I would strongly recommend starting out with the bamboo shinai, if you are going to be doing some sword on sword work.  

I've seen too many people try to start their sword on sword drills with bokken.  While bokken on bokken drills are fine, I would rather the participants have at least a certain amount of experience in handling them, so that they're familiar with proper techniques.  This way, you don't have people banging up their fingers and hands (all too common esepcially when children are working these drills).      

We do keep a few subrito (very wide, heavy, and large wooden swords) whose sole purpose are for strength training.  Not really for sword on sword contact drills, since the swing would be different, and I'm not one to screw around with things that would disrupt good mechanics.  

I see that you make your own wooden swords, and that's certainly admirable.  I will, however, suggest that you be a bit picky when it comes to making your own bokken, especially when selecting the wood.  

As a general rule of thumb:

Avoid North American red oak.  Too porous, and breaks with any serious contact.  

Avoid most white oak as well.  See reasons above.  Japanese white oak (Kashi) is good, though.

Hickory is a great bang / buck wood.  Very tough and resilient, and doesn't cost as much as the more expensive exotic woods.  

Purpleheart and Jatoba are great woods for bokken.  Very beautiful woods, and also tough and resilient.  I have a Jatoba bokken that has lasted me for two years of regular use.  Sure, it has a bunch of indentations and a few surface cracks, but the bokken is still in great condition, and everyone who tries to use a red oak bokken against mine ends up for the worse.  

Ipe is my favorite wood for bokken.  Very, very dense, and extremely tough.  The Ipe bokken that I have is a bit wider than my Jatoba bokken, but not by much.  It has a lot more weight, though.  Make sure you use carbide blades when you cut it...


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## melj7077 (May 12, 2006)

I've been studying iaido and find that using Century's aluminum training sword is fine.  I was warned that the training swords are not very well balanced but they are servicable.

Wooden swords don't allow the drawing of the saya and the sword nor do they allow you to perform noto correctly.  The aluminum swords aren't sharp though the tip is kind of pointy.  They are also not that expensive.  I use a Century sword but there are other suppliers.


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## pgsmith (May 15, 2006)

> I've been studying iaido and find that using Century's aluminum training sword is fine.


  Those "training swords" have a plastic handle that will begin cracking and loosening within a year. The blade is a _very_ soft aluminum alloy that bends extremely easily. This can lead to metal fatigue quite quickly. These two problems mean that every time you make a cut, you are going to be taking the chance of your blade flying out and impaling whoever happens to be in the wrong place. They are *not* allowed in my dojo! The beginner iaito that I recommend when students do not want to spend a lot on their first iaito, is by Meirin Sangyo and costs $260. It can be found at Mugendo Budogu ... http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page63.html
  These are definitely not fancy, but they are well made and rock solid.

  I seriously *DO NOT* recommend anyone using a Century "training sword".


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## Pfabrizi (May 15, 2006)

Hi everyone, I havent been able to come on for the past few days but now im back and I have read all of the new posts, the Century  practice swords sound interesting but im not so sure about it, sounds a little dangerous. I will do some more researching. I'm still open for more advice! Thanks alot for all the info so far.:asian:


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## Swordlady (May 18, 2006)

Pfabrizi said:
			
		

> Hi everyone, I havent been able to come on for the past few days but now im back and I have read all of the new posts, the Century practice swords sound interesting but im not so sure about it, sounds a little dangerous. I will do some more researching. I'm still open for more advice! Thanks alot for all the info so far.:asian:


 
Hey...how is your dojo search?  Have you tried searching on eBudo?  Try running a search there, or posting on this thread: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=124

You could also try asking some of the folks on Sword Forum.  You'll find a LOT of JSA practioners there.

Also for your information, there is a world of difference between kenjutsu and kendo.  Kenjutsu is the study of a sword art (which comprises of different styles and _koryu_), and kendo is more of a sport, like fencing.


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## Flying Crane (May 18, 2006)

Mcura said:
			
		

> Aluminum mimics steel in handling, weight, balance, and vibration/harmonics.


 
I don't know much about aluminum swords, but I am quite certain that steel is much heavier and denser than aluminum.  If a steel blade and aluminum blade are made to the same specifications in size, i.e. length, width, thickness, equal taper, etc., the steel blade will be noticably heavier.  To get the same weight, I imagine the aluminim blade would have to be made thicker.  That might work, but it might also affect how the sword handles when swung.


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## pgsmith (May 18, 2006)

> Aluminum mimics steel in handling, weight, balance, and vibration/harmonics.


I agree that this is an incorrect statement. However, it is not as incorrect as you would think at first glance. An aluminum _alloy_ iaito will handle pretty much the same as a decent shinken. The weight is usually less, but not by too much. Most iaito are usually between 850 and 1050 g. Decent shinken for iaido are usually between 950 and 1200 g. Balance is pretty much spot on with any decent iaito. Harmonics are considerably different as aluminum alloy is just not as hard as steel and so doesn't quite feel the same. However, if you are practicing correctly, you should never be aware of *any* vibrations/harmonics.

Decent iaito are made of an alloy of zinc and aluminum. This provides some stiffness to the blade, and increases the weight. Better iaito add beryllium to the alloy which increases the density and causes it to respond much more like a shinken.


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## Mcura (May 18, 2006)

That's fascinating.  I'm accustomed to a certain vibration in European style swords, wether they're steel or aluminum (aircraft aluminum, to be specific).  An arming/knightly sword, when you smack the pommel, will produce a vibration that travels up the blade.  There will be two spots that the wave terminates.  One is about 3 inches (or so) below the very tip of the blade, and the other (ideally) is in the grip.  That "sweet spot" near the tip is the place where the cut should land, and a blow struck there transfers no (or very little) vibration to the hand.

Yes, it's true that aluminum trainers cannot be as thin or shaped as steel.  It's still a much softer metal and should be treated as such.  My own sword, while well balanced, is still heavier than the few antique swords I've been fortunate enough to handle.  Those ancient blades feel like lightsabers in comparison.  It's a compromise for safety since it doesn't sport an edge of any kind.   I still like it because it conditions my weak and flabby body.

So, in comparison, a Japanese style blade should not exhibit any kind of flex or vibration at all?


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## Swordlady (May 18, 2006)

A katana can endure a few inches of flex and return true to form.  And yes, katana _do_ vibrate.  All swords vibrate.  How the vibrations travel on the sword depends on how it is made.


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## pgsmith (May 19, 2006)

> So, in comparison, a Japanese style blade should not exhibit any kind of flex or vibration at all?


  That is incorrect. Japanese style swords will flex and vibrate the same as any long, thin piece of metal. I was referring to the use of aluminum alloy practice swords. What I said was ... 





> However, if you are practicing correctly, you should never be aware of *any* vibrations/harmonics


  and that is a true statement. The Japanese sword arts use alloy iaito for solo forms practice. If you are practicing correctly, you should not feel your sword flex or vibrate. If you get flexion or vibration in solo forms practice, you are doing something wrong.


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## Swordlady (May 19, 2006)

> The Japanese sword arts use alloy iaito for solo forms practice. If you are practicing correctly, you should not feel your sword flex or vibrate. If you get flexion or vibration in solo forms practice, you are doing something wrong.



Actually...you shouldn't get *that* much vibration whenever practicing with *any* sword, right?  Not even a well-made Euro sword should vibrate that much, even if it makes contact with a target (this is from personal experience; please correct me if I'm wrong...)

Though...the way a katana is built, you shouldn't feel any vibration from the tsuka if you're practicing properly.


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## Calm Intention (May 21, 2006)

Pfabrizi said:
			
		

> So far, I have been using wooden swords and i will continue to use them, *but I was wondering if training* with a heavier or longer sword would be better than just using a normal length bokken? And does it matter if a different type of sword was used at times or would that be bad for technique reasons? feel free to answer, or post other factors that could be discussed further.



To each at their own speed and sense of safety.

For training,  I think a standard full tang 440 Stainless is best for me.
I like something weighted enough to do the job(which will never happen in real life in 100,000 potential conflicts....but,  go with what will work best).

Training is the key here,  and I find  going with the real deal the best way to go(assuming we are talking solataire practice).
Be careful please,   but the sharp stuff causes you to focus and become more proficient a.s.a.p......or you'lll show the consequences.


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## Swordlady (May 21, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> To each at their own speed and sense of safety.
> 
> For training,  I think a standard full tang 440 Stainless is best for me.
> I like something weighted enough to do the job(which will never happen in real life in 100,000 potential conflicts....but,  go with what will work best).



Um...exactly what kind of training are you doing with a stainless steel sword?  You *do* know that most all stainless steel swords (except by this one swordmaker, whose *functional* stainless steel swords are _very_ expensive) aren't really suitable for any kind of use, right?  Stainless steel requires a special kind of heat treat, since stainless itself tends to be brittle.  Good for short blades (like kitchen knives), but not really good as sword blades.  I've heard of stainless steel swords getting snapped in two from light to moderate swinging.  Please be careful.

Edited to add: Couldn't find the name of the swordmaker I was thinking of, but I *did* find this nicely written post by Adrian Ko on SFI about stainless steel swords: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17124


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## Charles Mahan (May 21, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> You *do* know that most all stainless steel swords (except by this one swordmaker, whose *functional* stainless steel swords are _very_ expensive) aren't really suitable for any kind of use, right?


 
Of course he doesn't.  That much is pretty clear from his post.  He implies that a stainless steel weapon is "the real deal".  A clear sign of ignorance on the topic.  Folks we shouldn't have to keep repeating this, but if you follow this guys advice over countless forum posts to the contrary, well... good luck getting the stainless steel splinters out of your eyes, and here's to hoping the feeling will one day return to your feet.


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## Calm Intention (May 21, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Um...exactly what kind of training are you doing with a stainless steel sword? You *do* know that most all stainless steel swords (except by this one swordmaker, whose *functional* stainless steel swords are _very_ expensive) aren't really suitable for any kind of use, right? Stainless steel requires a special kind of heat treat, since stainless itself tends to be brittle. Good for short blades (like kitchen knives), but not really good as sword blades. I've heard of stainless steel swords getting snapped in two from light to moderate swinging. Please be careful


 
Hi Swordlady,

The question was about 'training',  and unless I'm missing something,  training can present itself in a few ways.
I personally am 'solataire',  and am not part of any school(I enjoy the discipline of doing weapons kata).

I prefer my full tang blade...it makes me focused- or else I'm toast.
I admit, I've no idea about your 'heat treat', but then, I'm not whacking anything- so I shouldn't have any worry.

*Hi, we're both from Philly,  so I'm certain you know of Asian World, Bolos(that just moved when the Pennsauken Market shut down), and the outlet at Rt. 168 near Rt. 295.  Kudos to you SwordLady!


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## Calm Intention (May 21, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> Of course he doesn't. That much is pretty clear from his post. He implies that a stainless steel weapon is "the real deal". A clear sign of *ignorance* on the topic. Folks we shouldn't have to keep repeating this, but if you follow this guys advice over countless forum posts to the contrary, well... good luck getting the stainless steel splinters out of your eyes, and here's to hoping the feeling will one day return to your feet.


 
thankyou very much.:mp5:

Just joking guy,  but when you use the term 'ignorant', just raises my hackles.
I think we differ on approach only because of our definition of what is meant by training.
Since I've not engaged any kind of contact,  I understand your position....peace.


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## lhommedieu (May 21, 2006)

Currently I'm using a pinute, which is a long, straight variant of the Filipino bolo.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Charles Mahan (May 21, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> thankyou very much.:mp5:
> 
> Just joking guy, but when you use the term 'ignorant', just raises my hackles.
> I think we differ on approach only because of our definition of what is meant by training.
> Since I've not engaged any kind of contact, I understand your position....peace.


 
What's wrong with being ignorant?  I'm ignorant about all sorts of things.  I know almost nothing about putting up wallpaper for instance.

The good news about ignorance is that it's curable.  Do some forum searches for stainless steel at http://www.e-budo.com , http://www.swordforum.com , this forum, or any other serious JSA forum of your choosing.  There is a pretty broadly held consensus on the part of nearly EVERYONE who trains that Stainless is useless for training tools.  They're good for hanging on the wall and that is pretty much it.  And no they are not safe even for solo practice.  Why?  Do the forum searches.


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## Swordlady (May 21, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Hi Swordlady,
> 
> The question was about 'training',  and unless I'm missing something,  training can present itself in a few ways.
> I personally am 'solataire',  and am not part of any school(I enjoy the discipline of doing weapons kata).
> ...


But...do you understand my point about the brittleness of most stainless steel swords?  A *properly* made sword would had undergone heat treatment; this would enable the sword to better retain an edge and durability (someone else please jump in, because my knowledge of heat treatment is VERY limited!)  Stainless steel sword blades require a more specialized kind of heat treat, which is why most swordmakers don't even try using stainless steel.  Most of those production stainless steel "swords" you see in martial art stores or eBay are cheaply made.  I wouldn't even trust most of the cheap carbon steel swords which have been more and more prevalent on eBay today.  Poor heat treatment - even of carbon steel blade - equals a poorly made sword.

Run a search of "heat treatment" on SFI for more information.

I've owned a set of stainless steel full-tang katana in the past, probably very similar to yours.  I didn't try swinging them around at all, though I dry-handled them a little.  I've also had the opportunity to handle several different *functional* katana (most of them low to mid level production kats).  Even a cheap Paul Chen/Hanwei Practical Plus katana handles a LOT better than any of the stainless steel kats.  Your stainless steel katana probably has no distal taper to speak of, and is most likely poorly balanced.  Trust me, you _will_ feel a difference if you handle a *real* katana (even if it's a low end one).

By the way, if you _really_ want to handle a heavier sword, give the Cold Steel katana a try.  Too beefy for my taste, but they may be right up your alley.  Just be VERY careful when handling a sharpened blade, especially since you don't have an formal training.  Don't try any "speed draws" or blind noto (resheath).  And please do NOT twirl the sword around.  It is ridiculously EASY to cut yourself.

This thread has been posted on MT a few months ago, but it's worth linking to again.  This fellow was "self-training" for over a decade, but nearly lost an arm due to a single lapse in judgment: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083


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## Calm Intention (May 22, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> 1.There is a pretty broadly held consensus on the part of nearly EVERYONE who trains that Stainless is useless for training tools. They're good for hanging on the wall and that is pretty much it.
> 
> 2And no they are not safe even for solo practice. Why? Do the forum searches.


 
Hi C.M.,

Possibly 'training tools'  has a different meaning to myself than the others here.
Again my initial response to the thread starter was 'what I found right for my purposes of training',  and if it appeared that I was advising others to 'do what I do',  that was not my intention.
Yes,  they are not safe,  and that's why I like its challenge.

I like my training regime,  it lacks the necessary component of a partner to practice technique-  and of course I would only use wood at that point.


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## Swordlady (May 22, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Possibly 'training tools' has a different meaning to myself than the others here.
> Again my initial response to the thread starter was 'what I found right for my purposes of training', and if it appeared that I was advising others to 'do what I do', that was not my intention.
> Yes, they are not safe, and that's why I like its challenge.


 
Wait a sec...you _know_ that playing around with stainless steel swords is unsafe - and you're doing it anyway?  Seriously...you are playing with fire.

There have been a LOT of accidents caused by folks playing around with their stainless steel sword-like objects (called SLOs on SFI).  I don't have time to run a search on SFI right now (I'm at work), but you could find them easily enough.



			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> I like my training regime, it lacks the necessary component of a partner to practice technique- and of course I would only use wood at that point.


 
And what exactly is your "training regime"?  What are you using as a point of reference?

Self-training has been addressed on MT, SFI, and other fora countless times - and the general consensus is that it is _not_ beneficial in the long run.  All sword arts have nuances that can only be taught in person, not by a book or a video.  Please read the SFI thread I posted, and also this old MT thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29955

Believe me, it only takes a split-second to cut, maim, or kill yourself with a long sharp blade.  Safety first!


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## Calm Intention (May 22, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> But...do you understand my point about the brittleness of most stainless steel swords? A *properly* made sword would had undergone heat treatment; this would enable the sword to better retain an edge and durability (someone else please jump in, because my knowledge of heat treatment is VERY limited!) Stainless steel sword blades require a more specialized kind of heat treat, which is why most swordmakers don't even try using stainless steel. Most of those production stainless steel "swords" you see in martial art stores or eBay are cheaply made. I wouldn't even trust most of the cheap carbon steel swords which have been more and more prevalent on eBay today. Poor heat treatment - even of carbon steel blade - equals a poorly made sword.
> 
> Run a search of "heat treatment" on SFI for more information.
> 
> ...


 
Thankyou Swordlady,

You'll really hate me,  but I do 'twirl' my sword(sometimes two at once).
Double edged swords scare me though,  and I wouldn't go near one.
You know much more about swords than myself,  I don't even know the type of swords I have,  but as I mentioned, they are full tang,  so chopping/slashing motions during kata,  will not result in anything breaking off.   The majority of swords(like 95%) I've seen in these commerical distributors,  are garbage and not  full tang.
*I also probably mistaked when I said 'real deal',  because these are not swords individually forged,  and are only in the $100. range.  Still, they suit my purpose.

I'll check the link, thankyou.


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## Calm Intention (May 22, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Wait a sec...you _know_ that playing around with stainless steel swords is unsafe - and you're doing it anyway? Seriously...you are playing with fire.
> 
> There have been a LOT of accidents caused by folks playing around with their stainless steel sword-like objects (called SLOs on SFI). I don't have time to run a search on SFI right now (I'm at work), but you could find them easily enough.
> 
> ...


 
Hi again,
I think we both synchronized on this thread(you may have caught my other response to you a second ago).

I don't know what to say,  that's my training regime,  and I've been doing this for a few years.  I even had a drinking problem at one point,  and to say the least,  my weekends would have made anyone shiver-  but my control is pretty darn good if I may say so,  and at worst,  a nick or two in all this time.
You'd love my double cleaver workout(employing Sai, and double stick like movements).  I'll even grip the backs of the cleavers, flip them around my fingers,  execute slashing movement,  come back to the handles, etc.

These type exercises help build my dexterity and familiarity with all kinds of weapons, their weights;;  and various aspects associated with each, can be translated to other weapons,  and empty hand movements.
I confidence in  my ability is what keeps me safe;  I don't fear my weapon, but believe me,  I do 100% respect it.


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## Swordlady (May 22, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Thankyou Swordlady,
> 
> You'll really hate me, but I do 'twirl' my sword(sometimes two at once).


 
No, I don't hate you for saying that, but post that bit on SFI - and you'll have at least two dozen people jumping down your throat. 

Seriously...please stop twirling your swords around. There is absolutely NO practicality in doing such maneuvers. Not to mention that any sensible JSA sensei would laugh at your face.

During my visit to Angus Trim's shop in Seattle, some knucklehead picked up a longsword, proceeded to twirl it all over the place - and almost _hit_ me with the blade. He was also lucky not to hit _himself _with the sword.



			
				Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Double edged swords scare me though, and I wouldn't go near one.
> You know much more about swords than myself, I don't even know the type of swords I have, but as I mentioned, they are full tang, so chopping/slashing motions during kata, will not result in anything breaking off. The majority of swords(like 95%) I've seen in these commerical distributors, are garbage and not full tang.
> *I also probably mistaked when I said 'real deal', because these are not swords individually forged, and are only in the $100. range. Still, they suit my purpose.
> 
> I'll check the link, thankyou.


 
A $100 sword most likely is NOT *functional* in any way - whether it has a full tang or not. A two-foot long stainless steel blade has the potential of snapping even with a moderately powered swing, due to the brittleness of the metal. *Please stop practicing with those "swords" and stick to bokken!*


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## Charles Mahan (May 22, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> they are full tang, so chopping/slashing motions during kata, will not result in anything breaking off.


 
See.  There's that ignorance thing cropping up again.  Full tang does not mean it is safe to train with, even solo.  Go do those forum searches.  If you want something to train with solo, then what you want is an iaito and not a stainless steel wallhanger.  

Actually you'd be far better off putting your wallhanger down and finding some real instruction.  Why play around at sword twirling when you can enroll in genuine sword instruction?


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 22, 2006)

Just say "*NO*" to stainless steel! :asian: 

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Calm Intention (May 22, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Seriously...please stop twirling your swords around. There is absolutely *NO practicality* in doing such maneuvers. Not to mention that any sensible JSA sensei would laugh at your face.
> 
> A $100 sword most likely is [/b]NOT *functional* in any way[/b] - *whether it has a full tang or not. A two-foot long stainless steel blade has the potential of snapping* even with a moderately powered swing, due to the brittleness of the metal. *Please stop practicing with those "swords" and stick to bokken!*


 
As to the practicality aspects of twirling(not a large part of my routine), I just feel it adds a measure of awareness and control.
I remember working out with nunchuks when I was younger, and would do all the little flashy moves.  Now, I don't like them,  and years back I learned to cut out the flash,  and go with 'whats useful'.  
Still,  maybe those flashy moves helped over-all awareness/knowledge and weapon control?

When you say 'functional',  again, I'm only doing kata.
Well, I guess Charles is right,  because I am not aware that a sword like mine can break in two from just swinging it.:idunno:


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## Calm Intention (May 22, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> See. There's that ignorance thing cropping up again. Full tang does not mean it is safe to train with, even solo. Go do those forum searches. If you want something to train with solo, then what you want is an iaito and not a stainless steel wallhanger.
> 
> Actually you'd be far better off putting your wallhanger down and finding some real instruction. Why play around at sword twirling when you can enroll in genuine sword instruction?


 
I really would like to have direct instruction,  but as always.....time

.....have a nice day everyone; later


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## Charles Mahan (May 22, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> I really would like to have direct instruction, but as always.....time


 
Then you don't want it all that bad.


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## Grenadier (May 23, 2006)

Proper instruction is critical.  It's no different than empty hand martial arts training, and that it's important to have an experienced teacher guiding you.  Swordlady and Charles Mahan have already pointed out some very valid issues from a sword handling view.  

Instead of piling on top of that, I'm going to give my two cents from another perspective.

Suppose someone who isn't trained in the martial arts suddenly tries to get up and start performing moves that he saw from the Kung Fu movies of old?  Someone who hasn't been trained, and doesn't have a supervising teacher could easily damage his own body by such unsupervised training.  There are many things that could go wrong, for example:

1) The untrained individual (let's abbreviate it as UTI) may be practicing punching, but locking out his elbow, possibly hyperextending it.  

2) The UTI may be trying to kick to a height that's beyond his capability, resulting in torn muscles, ligaments, etc. 

3) The UTI's body may not be physically ready to handle a full workout, and could even end up cracking his own bones especially when trying to practice falls.  

4) The UTI might not understand the proper mechanics, and be damaging ligaments, tendons, etc. all over his body.  

5) The UTI might, God forbid, try practicing his techniques on others, and yes, even accidentally severely harm them.  I think we all know what can happen if someon accidentally (or purposefully) delivers a forceful blow to the mastoid process, the throat, etc.  He might try joint locks against a partner and severely harm him, or be harmed.  

6) The UTI could develop a nasty injury without knowing the extent of it.  

At least with a teacher there, the teacher can properly begin the UTI on a regimen of proven basics that are within the UTI's capability, and make adjustments to that regimen based on how he (the teacher) sees fit.  The UTI would start be learning correct punching mechanics, correct stances, and using the entire body in a proper manner.  


In your case, Calm Intention, get some proper training *somewhere*.  If you can't find a JSA teacher, then try some introductory fencing lessons from one of the local fencing clubs.  If there are universities / colleges in your area, you can certainly try your hand at fencing, even if you are not affiliated with the university.  This way, you get proper training, in a safe setting.  

Calm Intention, I don't think that you are incapable of being a proficient swordsman.  Anyone who is willing to listen with an open mind, and uphold some reasonable tidbits of wisdom, has the capability of doing so, but they must be willing to listen.  Period.


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## Walter Wong (May 24, 2006)

You know, too many people out there without proper instruction are so into just getting a sword for recreational swinging.  With recreational swinging (some call it "training" for whatever reason) as their basis, it's no wonder they ask "what's a good sword or size for me?"

Swords are so much more interesting when you recieve proper instruction.  And with proper instruction and guidance from a legitimate instructor, not only will the instructor have a guideline of what to look for in a sword, you learn to understand what size and type of sword you need.  Otherwise if you don't recieve legitimate training, you don't "need" a sword.  You're looking for a play thing to live out something that don't reflect the way swordsmanship was done for life and death in ancient times.


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## Captain Harlock (May 24, 2006)

Others have said much that this one would say. Their advice is most sound.
Swords are not toys, and those found at low prices at flea markets and at surplus stores are worthless, good only for display. Steel can be strong and it can be brittle. A good blade will run you hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Be warned, "twirling" is not good.


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## Blade of the East (May 24, 2006)

I totally agree, twirling is great for movies (or for the intention of killing oneself). I can almost guarantee that you will never see a sword master twirl his sword. 
 Doesn't anyone use common sense anymore? no offense

Just a bit off topic, What should a good sword be made of?


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## Calm Intention (May 26, 2006)

I just want to say,  I do appreciate the concern shown here,  although my personal workouts with a sharp sword is my business, and if it was noted, I did not recommend to the thread starter, my routine(I did mention this earlier).
As to 'twirling',,  I may have mistaked, so let me clear this up.
I do figure 8's(reg and reverse),  so maybe that is not twirling.  Possibly a semanitcs difference here, so I apologize.

Yes,  I could possibly find a way into a school setting,  but my time is constrained,  and I have some personal health issues too- frankly, I'm doing fine considering; and I will never be like any of you in terms of proficiency,  or be so-called 'combat ready' .  Then again,  there may be some Samurai or Ninja awaiting me somewhere- who knows.


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## Charles Mahan (May 26, 2006)

Ok so you acknowledge the risks.  Are quite happy making it up as you go along.  That begs a very interesting question?

Why in heavens name would you bother?  Seriously I don't get it at all.  I's one thing to join an established lineage  be part of an oral tradition, learn some genuinely interesting things, etc.  What can you be getting out of faking it that makes it worth the time and effort?  

Please don't take it the wrong way.  I'm genuinely curious.


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## Ojiisan (May 26, 2006)

Charles,

Don't worry about "Calm Intention". The Darwinian Theory will soon kick in and he will not be back.


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## Swordlady (May 26, 2006)

Ojiisan said:
			
		

> Charles,
> 
> Don't worry about "Calm Intention". The Darwinian Theory will soon kick in and he will not be back.



That's what we're afraid of.  We've already heard too many stories of people getting seriously injured from not-so-wise sword practice, and want to make sure the same thing doesn't happen again to Calm Intention.


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## Ojiisan (May 26, 2006)

Jennifer,

It is only because he refuses to listen to reason that I invoked the Darwin remark.  Numerous people here have tried in vain to convince him of the dangers he is exposing himself to.  He will end up hurt/dead or will finally realize that no one here is trying to "put him down" but rather trying to save his life/limb.


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## Calm Intention (May 26, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> Ok so you acknowledge the risks. Are quite happy making it up as you go along. That begs a very interesting question?
> 
> Why in heavens name would you bother? Seriously I don't get it at all. I's one thing to join an established lineage be part of an oral tradition, learn some genuinely interesting things, etc. What can you be getting out of faking it that makes it worth the time and effort?
> 
> Please don't take it the wrong way. I'm genuinely curious.


 

Are you curious?  I really detect something I've known for years, and your last few responses tell me a whole lot.
Have a nice holiday;;;  and get rid of your cute edge;  and then  I will respect yours.  
Dude, if I had training,  I'd be in the 80th percentile AT MIMIMUM.
I believe that really bothers you,  but after your last few responses,, I REALLY DON'T CARE....thankyou.


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## Don Roley (May 26, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Are you curious?  I really detect something I've known for years, and your last few responses tell me a whole lot.
> Have a nice holiday;;;  and get rid of your cute edge;  and then  I will respect yours.
> Dude, if I had training,  I'd be in the 80th percentile AT MIMIMUM.
> I believe that really bothers you,  but after your last few responses,, I REALLY DON'T CARE....thankyou.



Well, if you don't care you can stop responding.

I think that you are getting angry at some damn good advice being sent your way. 

Some of us have had actual instruction from a real teacher. And we have probably all looked at books and videos and things that supposably would help you to learn on your own.

So, we have experience that you do not have while you do not have any experience that we do not as well. So it is from that position of greater knowledge and experience that people have been telling you to not do things- or at least don't trumpet it here for others to follow. Especially if you don't like people jumping in to point out to the audience that what you do is not advised.

If someone who had all the experience I had plus a lot more was telling me the types of things you are being told, I would probably listen. Perhaps you should think about it.

And if you don't care, then just stop posting in this thread instead of telling us how you don't care.


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## Calm Intention (May 27, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Well, if you don't care you can stop responding.
> 
> I think that you are getting angry at some damn good advice being sent your way.
> 
> ...


 
I don't like some of his insertions; he could phrase himself different.
If you read some of my responses(here and on other threads),  then I think you may conclude that I'm not some turkey without a clue of things.

*yes, my part on this thread is over...."and I do respect everyone's concern".  :asian:


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## Don Roley (May 27, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> If you read some of my responses(here and on other threads),  then I think you may conclude that I'm not some turkey without a clue of things.



I have read what you have been writing. That is why I have to urge you to take the advice of folks with experiences you do not have. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from other people's mistakes. People are telling you that what you are doing is dangerous because others have been injured trying it. To think that you are too smart to have the same thing happen to you is a bit egotistical, don't you think?


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## Grenadier (May 27, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Yes, I could possibly find a way into a school setting, but my time is constrained, and I have some personal health issues too-


 
CI, I would still urge you to at least try a class at the school.  Almost every school is going to be willing to let you at least try a free lesson to see if you like it.  If you really like something, then you'll find the time.  




> frankly, I'm doing fine considering; and I will never be like any of you in terms of proficiency, or be so-called 'combat ready' . Then again, there may be some Samurai or Ninja awaiting me somewhere- who knows.


 
As for the above, I think you're going to find that learning the sword arts isn't nearly as emphatic about training the body, but rather, training the mind.  Many older folks are still excellent swordsmen.  While they aren't going to deliver nearly as forceful of a blow, they can still cut with the best of them, because of better technique, timing, and leverage.  This comes with experience.

Also, a good teacher will recognize a particular student's limitations, and work with him to help him progress.


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## Swordlady (May 27, 2006)

Calm Intention said:
			
		

> Dude, if I had training,  I'd be in the 80th percentile AT MIMIMUM.
> I believe that really bothers you,  but after your last few responses,, I REALLY DON'T CARE....thankyou.



You'll be in the 80% percentile?  Are you implying that you would be better than most everyone else with training?  Isn't that a bit presumptuous of you to make such a statement?

Most all of us who had been posting to you have training in some kind of JSA.  And any sword practioner would tell you that safety in training is key.  Making a mistake with a weapon can do a great deal more damage to yourself than making a mistake with an empty-hand kata.

Have you gotten around to reading about Don Rice on SFI?  He was "self-training" in Iaido for over twenty years, but a single lapse in judgment almost cost him his arm - and possibly his life.

Again...PLEASE consider what people have shared with you, since we are concerned about your safety and well-being.


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## Calm Intention (May 27, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I have read what you have been writing. That is why I have to urge you to take the advice of folks with experiences you do not have.
> 1.*A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from other people's mistakes*. People are telling you that what you are doing is dangerous because others have been injured trying it.
> 2.*To think that you are too smart to have the same thing happen to you is a bit egotistical*, don't you think?


 
1.quite clear, basic to all things in life
2.I didn't know my comments or retort==  'too smart'

The only egotistical remark was my "80th percentile" brag.  That was foolish of me, egotisitical,  and showed my own lack of 'calm' and weakness.


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## Calm Intention (May 27, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> You'll be in the 80% percentile? Are you implying that you would be better than most everyone else with training? Isn't that a bit presumptuous of you to make such a statement?


 
As I responded to Don,  I went stupid with that comment.
However,  I do feel I have talent,  a strong affection for what I do,   and since I own probably the best Aikido Philosophy book around:
'Aikido' and the Harmony of Nature...by Mitsugi Saotome,,  which so incisively and elegantly,  describes the relationship of the 'one-ness' of all things......even linking  the quantum world's principles to both the philosophy and actions of their art,,  I think that may show that I am more than just someone swinging things around with no focus as to the why of it.
The 80% remark was definitely an embarrassment on my part,  but I actually believe that with about 10 years of instructional training,  I would be in that bracket of proficiency.


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## Blade of the East (May 28, 2006)

Books are great recorces; however, they cannot replace an actual instructor. If I were you I would be searching the phonebook/ internet to find dojos in my area.

 Just a thought.


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## Swordlady (May 28, 2006)

Blade of the East said:
			
		

> Books are great recorces; however, they cannot replace an actual instructor. If I were you I would be searching the phonebook/ internet to find dojos in my area.
> 
> Just a thought.



CI said that he also lives in Philadelphia.  I asked him to stop by the dojo where I train: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=549187&postcount=6.


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