# Boxing Vs. Ma-ists



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> Said best with plagiarism:
> Boxers are tough, are used to getting hit, train against unco-operative opponents and hit really hard. Quite frankly, most MArtists don't train that way.
> 
> Most martial artists have to pull techniques or someone could
> be seriuosly injured or worse which can be habit forming.
> 
> A boxer may have less techniques than most martial artists but that allows them to truly master every punch in their
> arsenal.
> :asian: *



I think most MAist are used to getting hit as well. I am, and also used to getting thrown, locked, kicked, backhanded, joint locked, ect. When I train I never spar with an oponant who just goes along with me, it is forcefully against me, not co-oporative.
If you really believe that wouldn't you be studying boxing instead? I think MAist pull some techniques, but not all of them, I certainly don't.


JMHO,
 7sm


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *
> 
> I think most MAist are used to getting hit as well. I am, and also used to getting thrown, locked, kicked, backhanded, joint locked, ect. When I train I never spar with an oponant who just goes along with me, it is forcefully against me, not co-oporative.
> If you really believe that wouldn't you be studying boxing instead? I think MAist pull some techniques, but not all of them, I certainly don't.
> 
> 
> JMHO,
> 7sm *



Sparing, from what I've seen is just a glorified game of tag.  But
it goes beyond that.  Most ma-ists study and train, what 8 - 10 
hours a day.  What percentage of that is sparring?  Boxers,
typically are training as their job.  They train 8 - 10 hours a DAY,
typically 7 days a week. 

But we've gone way off topic now.  If you want to discuss this 
more, let's start another thread.


----------



## 7starmantis

oh oh oh, yes lets make another thread, I'm very interested in discussing this topic. I see your point about the sparring, but that is asuming the boxer trains all day and the MAist does not. I guess as a rule of thumb more boxers are professional, but still, I think there are MAist who train just as much if not more than boxers do. Would they still have the same disadvantage in your opinion ?


7sm


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *oh oh oh, yes lets make another thread, I'm very interested in discussing this topic. I see your point about the sparring, but that is asuming the boxer trains all day and the MAist does not. I guess as a rule of thumb more boxers are professional, but still, I think there are MAist who train just as much if not more than boxers do. Would they still have the same disadvantage in your opinion ?
> 
> 
> 7sm *



Upon reading that it may have sounded a little sarcastic, I really didn't mean for it too. I am seriously interested in discussing this topic. just wanted to put that in there!

7sm


----------



## Marginal

I'd think that a boxer wouldn't automatically fare that well against any martial artist from a different style. Few reasons for this:

A typical boxer isn't a pro, and isn't looking to go pro. They aren't going to be training several hours a day etc. They just do it for fitness, fun etc. They may be better used to taking hits, but I don't see how it can be assumed that all boxers are training intensely with the intent of going pro. (Shrug)

Any MA that uses a full contact method of sparring that doens't impose many restrictions will eat that boxer alive presuming similar conditioning and training is applied. (MT, Sanshou etc would have my money in a mixed martial arts style match vs a pure boxer.) The boxer may have better hands, but against leg kicks, sweeps, head kicks, people trained to use elbows and headbutts, and various throws, they're going to have trouble since they don't train for any of that. 

That said, I think it's safe to say that any casual MA practitioner going up against one from another style, (or even the same style) who is serious about their conditioning and training is going to be in trouble. 

While a lot of styles don't practice with the needed intensity, there's little reason that they cannot except tradition/fear of litigation. (Most of those "deadly" techniques don't seem to be stopping a whole lot of people in Vale Tudo rules competition etc after all.) IMO, it's a shame that so many styles don't feel the need to update the training methods. We've come a long way in the past 300 years. Lotsa shock absorbant padding exists now that was impossible back then, we have better mats etc. Might as well use them...

Personally, I think my TKD training would come along a bit better if we were allowed to spar without the above the belt restrictions. Getting to use sweeps etc, and not only that, but with the joint locks, and the throws that we learn too. (We learn that stuff but it's all seperate and never integrated.) Someone sparring in that environment'd present a far tougher nut to crack than the typical tournament sparring techniques. (Rather than moving to a full contact unrestricted venue like that the main movement seems to be for a retreat to even more stylized non contact traditional sparring)

I honestly don't care about the Olympics or going to Argentena, I'd rather just know how to fight. I do wish that there was a larger movement to encourage this kinda of shift in one of the larger organizations. Like it or not, it's not the techniques as much as the training methods that have given TKD the reputation it has now. Rather than amending the training, the solution seems to be to cross train in at least two other arts. Great temporary solution, but there's no real reason that this has to be the case.... *sigh*


----------



## Kirk

I disagree.  I've never met  a casual boxer in my life.  I've met
plenty (including myself) casual ma-ists.  Do you feel that you
could spar a boxer, and take one of his punches in the same way
you can with a fellow TKDist?


----------



## Kenpo_student

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *I disagree.  I've never met  a casual boxer in my life.  I've met
> plenty (including myself) casual ma-ists.  Do you feel that you
> could spar a boxer, and take one of his punches in the same way
> you can with a fellow TKDist? *



Have to agree with Kirk here. I have friends who box and they are in the ring pounding on each other 4-5 days a week. On the other hand my dojo only has sparring 2 nights a week.:asian:


----------



## Kirk

To plagiarise again (worded so much better than I could):

Most kickboxers only launch the required 8 kicks per round, then 
delve right into punching. That is why they made the minimum 8 
kicks per round. Because Boxers were coming in and eating 
people up. In the stand up game they're near the top of the list 
whether you like it or not.


----------



## tmanifold

We pretty much beat that to death over on the western martial arts section. Here is the thread if you want to read it.
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2098

It got pretty heated so Chulthu locked it. This is a no win argument.

Tony


----------



## J-kid

True that they are only 17 and i am 16 they do all the boxing training and are good at what they do.  I win 98% of the time because  i also train full contact sparring and cross train alot,  Since i am many a grappler i go for the easy take down and pound or submit the guy,  This works great on boxers cause they cant do much on the ground,  I am starting Muiy tia kickboxing and jkd to go with my Judo/Jujutsu , And i believe this conbo will be great together.  But over all boxers are strong fighters and so are most martial artist really depends on what you do.  If you sit around class 60% of the time doing katas your not going to be ready to fight a real street fighter/boxer type.  But if you are sparring full out and no i dont mean point system,  You will be alot deadlyer then a boxer being able to deal punchs /kicks/throws/submissions etc.  Because boxers only use punchs this will give you the advanctige knowing what there going to do,.  Just my Dime on the subject.


----------



## Zujitsuka

First of all, I'm no expert or tough guy, but here is my opinion based on my expereiences.  If you are fortunate enough to be in a martial arts school that has full-contact sparring, consider yourself fortunate because you're receiving a more complete martial education than most other martial artists.

Anyway, I'd go with boxers.

First of all, boxers are on the average much better conditioned.

Boxers have what some may consider a "limited" arsenal, but it is very formidable one.  These guys and gals drill these punches constantly (i.e. bag work and shadow boxing), and of course use them against uncooperative opposition.  Their muscle memory and reflexes are better because they don't have to think about what to do - heck, there isn't much to choose from, right?   Also, don't forget that outside of the ring a trained boxer will elbow, head-butt, and bite.  These tactics are banned from organized boxing but they do exist and boxers know how to execute when necessary.

Most martial artists on the other hand, tend to boast about how many techniques they know - jack of all trades, master of none.  Sometimes less is more.

Also, when they are sparring, they are sparring against guys or gals who don't even know how to throw punch correctly, and have terrible footwork and body movement.  Like the Korean martial arts master in the movie "Remo Williams" said: "They move like a pregnant baboon with a club foot."  

If you really want to test your


----------



## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *I disagree.  I've never met  a casual boxer in my life.  I've met
> plenty (including myself) casual ma-ists.  Do you feel that you
> could spar a boxer, and take one of his punches in the same way
> you can with a fellow TKDist? *



Incorrect comparison- Boxing is full contact -compare full contact schools.    Sounds to me like you have some issues with your training.   You have to fight if you are to call your self an AK practitioner.  It is not a game of tag-  It is a game of how hard I can tag you and not break you.   Move up the ladder and the game continues to change as you work on different material.   Do not paint everything and everyone with the same brush.  

I'll leave you with this thought... if you can't hit on the move you can't hit.  Most people will not stand there and let you bludgen them to death.


----------



## Marginal

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *I disagree.  I've never met  a casual boxer in my life.*


I have. He's now a white belt in the TKD club I go to. Not all boxing students are prize fighters. 



> *  I've met
> plenty (including myself) casual ma-ists.  Do you feel that you
> could spar a boxer, and take one of his punches in the same way
> you can with a fellow TKDist? *


That's not saying a whole lot given ITF sparring rules. (as per the second half of my rant, which I guess wasn't read...) 

OTOH, asi I said before, pit that boxer against a MT practitioner or another MA that routinely does full contact (and with things harder than gloves routinely hitting them), and I still don't see why the boxer would have the advantage. (US kickboxing's a different animal with no hits below the belt etc.) They don't have a corner on physical conditioning, or years to get used to being hit hard.


----------



## rmcrobertson

Interestingly, this thread actually has zip to do with "boxing," vs. "martial artists," a debate that I first read in my dad's "Argosy," magazine about 1961. Hey, guess what? The Amercian boxer always beat up the sneaky Japanese guy, which tells you something about the roots of what's wrong with this whole argument.

But more to the point: you're comparing professional fighters and amateurs, really big guys and average men and women, extraordinarily-talented athletes and we mere mortals. The fact that Sugar Ray Leonard would kick my *** in a heartbeat, if I were stupid enough to get into a ring with him, tells us nothing about boxing vs. martial arts. It's apples and oranges. You should be asking what happens if Joe Lewis fights Leonard? what happens if Skipper Mullins in his prime fights Oscar de la Hoya?

I do American kenpo. Rule about #4: don't play to the other guy's strengths.

Thanks,
Robert


----------



## muayThaiPerson

its seriousl image. the boxer does more weight training than the Martial Artist. if the MAist did the same amount, MA will beat boxing in less that second(dont mean that literally)

:asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

It all depends on the person and the amount of effort he puts in.

If he puts two hours in, that's what he'll get.

I was used to early morning wake-ups, train for 4 hours, mind control/meditation which was considered a break, then mind endurance training, full-contact sparring (although we wore some protective covering - gloves, helmet, cup, knee brace as we were trained to hit those areas during sparring), and much more.  Much harder than how a normal boxer or as much if not more than a professional boxer.

But don't forget, boxers, although conditioned to get hit, would know the difference between controlled conditions and knuckles.  Same with MAists, EVERYONE.

Not a matter of style, but of the person


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> 
> *its seriousl image. the boxer does more weight training than the Martial Artist. if the MAist did the same amount, MA will beat boxing in less that second(dont mean that literally)
> 
> :asian: *


You overestimate strength or mass (powerlifter vs. bodybuilder) vs. fighting skill.  How much you spend in a gym does not totally affect your fighting ability although it does help to a point.  But none of the great fighters were not very strong compared to powerlifters.  Look at Ray, Ali, etc.  Even look at Lee who did some powerlifting.  Were strong, yes, but super strong?  No.  Strength does not equal power necessarily.  The attributes Ray, Ali, and Lee had in common were that they were poetry in motion, used extensive footwork, were quick, and open.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 
> *Interestingly, this thread actually has zip to do with "boxing," vs. "martial artists," a debate that I first read in my dad's "Argosy," magazine about 1961. Hey, guess what? The Amercian boxer always beat up the sneaky Japanese guy, which tells you something about the roots of what's wrong with this whole argument.
> 
> But more to the point: you're comparing professional fighters and amateurs, really big guys and average men and women, extraordinarily-talented athletes and we mere mortals. The fact that Sugar Ray Leonard would kick my *** in a heartbeat, if I were stupid enough to get into a ring with him, tells us nothing about boxing vs. martial arts. It's apples and oranges. You should be asking what happens if Joe Lewis fights Leonard? what happens if Skipper Mullins in his prime fights Oscar de la Hoya?
> 
> I do American kenpo. Rule about #4: don't play to the other guy's strengths.
> 
> Thanks,
> Robert *


True that they won, not always, but a lot of the times.  Guess why...  Modified rules.  It wasn't fighting but a boxing match.  If you look in some articles, the wing chun practitioner, the karateka practitioner, the muay thai practitioner, and the tkd practitioner did come out on top under their rules.  I have an article where a boxer challenged some guy in Seoul.  The guy never left Korea after that...

No, he didn't die, he stayed there to train

Again, this is just supporting what you said in the way that you can't compare the two.  But I wouldn't really say apples and oranges.  If comparing the sport aspects of the two, yes, but the combat version, I would say tangerine vs. mandarin.


----------



## Carbon

I think that weight training effects power to an extent.

No being a big body builder doesn't effect every aspect of your fighting ability but it sure as hell can effect your speed and strength and stamina.

I mean look at Billy Blanks. He's a rather big black guy that weight trains and disproved the theory about being big makes you slow. He is by no means slow.

Also I think I saw that they had a Boxer fight a MAist like in the 70's and this was 2 professionals and the boxer was winning at first but then the MAist started doing leg sweeps and there really wasn't anything the boxer could do.

Now if you took a rather well trained boxer and took 6 months to train him in anti-grappling and anti-sweeping techniques then he would probably be able to shutdown a MAist.

Trust me taking a combo from a boxer is quite hard and I doubt the people here have the jaw to take hits.

Also what are the size of gloves we are talking about? 6oz.? 10oz.? 16oz.? Or bare knuckles?


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *I think that weight training effects power to an extent.
> 
> No being a big body builder doesn't effect every aspect of your fighting ability but it sure as hell can effect your speed and strength and stamina.
> 
> I mean look at Billy Blanks. He's a rather big black guy that weight trains and disproved the theory about being big makes you slow. He is by no means slow.
> 
> Also I think I saw that they had a Boxer fight a MAist like in the 70's and this was 2 professionals and the boxer was winning at first but then the MAist started doing leg sweeps and there really wasn't anything the boxer could do.
> 
> Now if you took a rather well trained boxer and took 6 months to train him in anti-grappling and anti-sweeping techniques then he would probably be able to shutdown a MAist.
> 
> Trust me taking a combo from a boxer is quite hard and I doubt the people here have the jaw to take hits.
> 
> Also what are the size of gloves we are talking about? 6oz.? 10oz.? 16oz.? Or bare knuckles? *


I believe the gloves were 10 oz. or 12 oz.  By no means 16 oz.

Billy Blanks is not what people would call a bodybuilder.  A bodybuilder would be someone like Dorian Yates, Ronnie Coleman, Lee Priest.  And yes, the mass will slow you don't.  Plus, since a bodybuilder's goal isn't about strength.  Their goals deal with mass, symmetry (which they really can't change naturally), and being at around a 5% BF during competition.

A powerlifter would be a better fighter not regarding skill.  The compound movements make their hips better and a lot more explosive.  And yes, traditional martial artists did train in compound movements from a movement like the snatch to the power clean.  The difference is that they didn't use barbells and bumper plates.

I do agree that defending against combos is hard.  But for doing that, you have to think about how the boxer would handle combos as they're most used to the basic combos.  But even if you don't box, it is quite possible to defend against boxer combos.  William Cheung for one, blocked all the rapid fire combos of an intercontiental boxer I believe.  It's the matter of training.  If you think everyone fights like your training partner or the people in the area/school/whatever...  You have to expect the unexpected in those kinds of situations.


----------



## Carbon

Saying that mass slows you down is a generalization.

Do you want to know why sprinters take steroids? Because more muslce makes them faster.

The more muscle you have means the harder you can work without getting exhausted physically.

Also, not every body builder lifts for mass. If you say you are a body builder it doesn't mean you have to be Mr.Universe. It just means that you build your body with weights. Having 5% BF just means you are cut and i could be an average 5'10 160 lb body builder and be built but doesn't necessarily mean that I have to be huge.

Its all in the way the bodybuilder chooses to build his body there is no set mass that you have to obtain before you can call yourself a body builder.


----------



## 7starmantis

IT seems you guys are contradicting yoursleves here. Most every one of you has posted in other threads that you do martial arts for your own reasons, yet in this thread you are generalizing all MAist. Saying things like, "boxers lift more weights than MAist". How do you know how much weight lifting I or my training partner does? How do you now how much joe blow the boxer does? We are consistantly yelling about sterotypes, yet you guys are creating your own ones right here. 

Let me address some of the statements...


> First of all, boxers are on the average much better conditioned.


  I train with guys in my school who have as low as 5% body fat, is that less conditioned than boxers? Again, these sterotypes are dangerous to make.



> Boxers have what some may consider a "limited" arsenal, but it is very formidable one. These guys and gals drill these punches constantly (i.e. bag work and shadow boxing), and of course use them against uncooperative opposition. Their muscle memory and reflexes are better because they don't have to think about what to do - heck, there isn't much to choose from, right?  Also, don't forget that outside of the ring a trained boxer will elbow, head-butt, and bite. These tactics are banned from organized boxing but they do exist and boxers know how to execute when necessary.


  This is the exact reason I am against so much cross training. I study only 7 star praying mantis kung fu, and so I have what you refer to as a "limited arsenal", but believe me, its not limited!!



> Also, when they are sparring, they are sparring against guys or gals who don't even know how to throw punch correctly, and have terrible footwork and body movement. Like the Korean martial arts master in the movie "Remo Williams" said: "They move like a pregnant baboon with a club foot."


 I spar against my sifu and advanced students. My sigung can punch with his fingers right through a stop sign. I haven't seen many boxers that can do that. I'm just saying, I can take the punches, they can deffinatly deal them out. I'm not training with people who do not know how to punch. I think its true what people have said that you must compare the training of each fighter. If the boxer trains extensivly, pair him with a MAist who trains just as extensivly. Because you or your friends don't train everyday, doesn't mean there aren't other MA like me who do. As to the argument that boxers have better hands, well, in the mantis system we work extensivly on our hands, I would like to see a boxer that could feel, or move, or strike with the effortless power that my Sifu can. I have yet to see one come close. I've seen my sigung split my Sifu's lip in half by a wrist extension of about 2 inches. I think the trained MAist has much more of an advantage because we train in multiple situations. The boxer has no idea how to yield out of a lock or trap.


JMHO
7sm


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Kenpo_student _
> 
> *
> 
> Have to agree with Kirk here. I have friends who box and they are in the ring pounding on each other 4-5 days a week. On the other hand my dojo only has sparring 2 nights a week.:asian: *



Then a MAist from your dojo would not fair well against a boxer, but I am at my school 6 days a week, one of which is nothing but workign through the circuit boxing room. It has been said that a MA couldn't take a punch from a boxer, isn't the point to NOT take the punch?


7sm


----------



## J-kid

Cross training is great,  Depends on how you do it as well,  THe way i cross train is take a great standing art like JKD and Muay tia and conbine it with Judo Jujutsu to get a awsome fighting art, if you cross train you will be ready for anything and be able to target someones weaknesses, Cross training is a great tool for the fighter who wishs to be well rounded.


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> * It has been said that a MA couldn't take a punch from a boxer, isn't the point to NOT take the punch?
> 7sm *



Yes. Exactly.


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *Cross training is great,  Depends on how you do it as well,  THe way i cross train is take a great standing art like JKD and Muay tia and conbine it with Judo Jujutsu to get a awsome fighting art, if you cross train you will be ready for anything and be able to target someones weaknesses, Cross training is a great tool for the fighter who wishs to be well rounded. *



True, but if you master your art, there is no need to supliment. Depending on the art of course.

7sm


----------



## Zujitsuka

Of course the point is to not get hit, but things don't usually go as planned.  Most attacks are started with a sucker punch or a similar tactic.  No one advises you to prepare to defend yourself.

If you're in a fight, you can expect to get hit.  Especially when dealing with multiple attackers.  Hopefully you would have had enough hard-contact sparring to know how to roll with a punch and not to totally freak out or freeze-up when hit.

When it comes to cross-training, I say go for it.  However, others may disagree.  Hey, the issue of cross-training is a personal issue and would should go with their gut.  If you feel that your art has everything that YOU want, well then don't cross train.  If you want to experience different ranges and forms of combat, cross-training is essential.

***We all can learn from other systems/ways, etc.***

Like the founder of the McDonald's franchise, Ray Krock said:

"When you're green you can grow.  Once you think you're ripe, all you can do is rot."


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> 
> *Of course the point is to not get hit, but things don't usually go as planned.  Most attacks are started with a sucker punch or a similar tactic.  No one advises you to prepare to defend yourself.
> *



We aren't talking about sucker punches or the initial attack, we are talking about sparring and the punches (plural) that are thrown there. If you can take punches throughout the sparring match like boxers do. I think that MAist are trained to end the fight so quickly that the conditioning of being able to take multiple mutiple punches is a little moot.

I respect every MAist regardless of their style, I just don't believe that some styles need supliments to them, they are pretty much complete as they are. I'm not sayign one is "better" than the other, just different.


7sm


----------



## Zujitsuka

7starmantis, I truly respect your passion about the martial arts but I feel that your opinions are being made on your experiences in your school.  Remember, we're talking about most martial artists - not real tough guys like us  

Most martial artists (not you or your school) cannot end fights quickly because they are not sparring full contact and are lacking in the mental toughness department.  "Most don't know how to close the show."

Most martial artists that I've met practice martial arts for solely recreational and fitness purposes - not self defense.  They can fight no better than someone who practices yoga, tae bo, or aerobics.

I agree with you that no style is better than any other style, but some martial artists are just better than other martial artists.  Style has very little to do with it.

Respectfully,


----------



## Carbon

Body Fat has nothing to do with conditioning.

Conditioning means do you wake up every morning and run 7 miles? 

This is the workout of a boxer. Its his life, you may say that oh ya MA is my life too but I can then ask how do you make your money?

Teaching? Ya there are boxing trainers but its alot different. There maybe a very expierienced teacher and there are probably alot of knowledgeable ones.

But alot of MA teachers lacked the ability to compete and make money because its not easy.

You say your sifu can effortlessly generate power? Are you saying that your sifu is the only person in the world who trains at 7 star praying mantis?

Really when you say limited? How many actual punches or strikes are in your system?

Jab,Cross,Uppercut,Hook are there really any other punches thrown in boxing that are legal? 

Comparing the 2 do you only have 4 strikes in your system?

I also guarentee you lack the training to take on a serious boxer who trains for a living.


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *Body Fat has nothing to do with conditioning.*


Actually from a medical standpoint it is a great judge of conditioning. No it doesn't mean you can get out and run 10 miles at 4 min a piece, but it does show some type of conditioning for the body. I mentioned it because it was said that boxers have low body fat ratio.



> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> *Conditioning means do you wake up every morning and run 7 miles?*


You got me there, I only do 5 in the morning usually. It depends on how I feel actually.  



> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> *This is the workout of a boxer. Its his life, you may say that oh ya MA is my life too but I can then ask how do you make your money?*


Once again if you read my post, I was making the point of putting two equally trained atheletes together. I never said I was a pro athlete. If you read my post you will see that in general I agreed with you, but two individuals who train basically the same amount, one a boxer, one a MAist, thats when I think the MAist has the advantage.


> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> *Teaching? Ya there are boxing trainers but its alot different. There maybe a very expierienced teacher and there are probably alot of knowledgeable ones. But alot of MA teachers lacked the ability to compete and make money because its not easy.*


Once again, we aren't speakign of professional boxers against the average soccer mom MAist. Are you saying that only those who compete professionaly can inhance their skill? Thats not true at all.


> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> *You say your sifu can effortlessly generate power? Are you saying that your sifu is the only person in the world who trains at 7 star praying mantis?*


I don't even know what in the world this means? What does throwing effortless punches have to do with being the only person in the world training at 7*pm ? I train, so you know at least there is two of us, right ?


> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> *Really when you say limited? How many actual punches or strikes are in your system? Jab,Cross,Uppercut,Hook are there really any other punches thrown in boxing that are legal?
> Comparing the 2 do you only have 4 strikes in your system?*


once again, read my post, I said in the boxing ring, with boxing rules enforced, the boxer had the advantage. Did you actually read my post? I said in a situation where the MAist is free to utalize his/her entire system.


> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> *I also guarentee you lack the training to take on a serious boxer who trains for a living. *


Lets not get wound up and make statments that you have no idea about. You cannot pass judgment on me like that without knowing anything about me, thats a little ridiculous. Plus, I never said I did have the training to take on a serious boxer, I didn't know that was the issue on this thread. I though we were discussing MAist vs Boxing. Lets not stoop to personal attacks because of my opinion.


7sm


----------



## Kirk

> *
> Most kickboxers only launch the required 8 kicks per round, then
> delve right into punching. That is why they made the minimum 8
> kicks per round. Because Boxers were coming in and eating
> people up. *



Why is this the case then?  Both would be the same as far as
conditioning goes.  Kickboxers would have a larger arsenal, no?


----------



## Marginal

Kickboxing rules prohibit attacks below the waist. This kinda discourages kicking in general since without the leg kicks etc, it's not too hard to close the distance and render the kicking ineffective. Add to that the restricted knees and elbow attacks, and there's only fists to keep an opponent away in NA kickboxing. (Kinda why a lot of the MMA crowd views NA kickboxing as a joke.)

OTOH, look at other competition formats that aren't restrictive lke Vale Tudo UFC etc. It's served the strikers fairly well all things considered there. You don't see a whole lot of pure boxers walking away with the cash prizes in those events strangely enough.


----------



## chufeng

I boxed for two and one half years...

My brothers boxed for fourteen plus years...

My father coached boxing and taught my brothers and I how to defend ourselves at a very early age (of course, in today's politically correct climate, nothing can be settled with violence...funny thing is that everyone I ever fought in school became a close pal after that.)...My father also taught me that being a nice guy was always better than being a bully...and I was usually a target for bullies until I hit them on the end of their noses (after many attempts at trying to avoid a fight).

My brothers were MUCH better boxers than I ever was...

After 10 months in YiLiQuan training, they couldn't touch me...and I always put a hurt on them...so, I would have to say that a martial artist who UNDERSTANDS the strategy of boxing will certainly have the advantage...but...NEVER underestimate the power that a boxer can deliver...John had a devastating punch and Drew hit so crisply that you didn't feel it until you got up off of the floor.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *IT seems you guys are contradicting yoursleves here. Most every one of you has posted in other threads that you do martial arts for your own reasons, yet in this thread you are generalizing all MAist. Saying things like, "boxers lift more weights than MAist". How do you know how much weight lifting I or my training partner does? How do you now how much joe blow the boxer does? We are consistantly yelling about sterotypes, yet you guys are creating your own ones right here.
> 
> Let me address some of the statements...
> I spar against my sifu and advanced students. My sigung can punch with his fingers right through a stop sign. I haven't seen many boxers that can do that. I'm just saying, I can take the punches, they can deffinatly deal them out. I'm not training with people who do not know how to punch. I think its true what people have said that you must compare the training of each fighter. If the boxer trains extensivly, pair him with a MAist who trains just as extensivly. Because you or your friends don't train everyday, doesn't mean there aren't other MA like me who do. As to the argument that boxers have better hands, well, in the mantis system we work extensivly on our hands, I would like to see a boxer that could feel, or move, or strike with the effortless power that my Sifu can. I have yet to see one come close. I've seen my sigung split my Sifu's lip in half by a wrist extension of about 2 inches. I think the trained MAist has much more of an advantage because we train in multiple situations. The boxer has no idea how to yield out of a lock or trap.
> 
> 
> JMHO
> 7sm *


Nothing wrong on your views against cross-training.  I am kinda in the middle.  Cross-training is good, but only if you have a solid base.  Trying to master one art is effective also.

Boxing having a limited arsenal...  So?  If you're good at fighting at mid-range, then that would be your strong point and if you're good enough, all you need to know.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *
> 
> True, but if you master your art, there is no need to supliment. Depending on the art of course.
> 
> 7sm *


Very true.  But if you're like me, you'll probably mess up at some points and you may need some groundfighting or etc.  Notice I said some.  Doesn't mean you would master it, as even mastering one art compeltely takes a lifetime nonetheless trying to master two or more.  But, if you have a strong knowledge in one art, it wouldn't hurt at all to know some basics of other arts.  They may come in handy.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> 
> *7starmantis, I truly respect your passion about the martial arts but I feel that your opinions are being made on your experiences in your school.  Remember, we're talking about most martial artists - not real tough guys like us
> 
> Most martial artists (not you or your school) cannot end fights quickly because they are not sparring full contact and are lacking in the mental toughness department.  "Most don't know how to close the show."
> 
> Most martial artists that I've met practice martial arts for solely recreational and fitness purposes - not self defense.  They can fight no better than someone who practices yoga, tae bo, or aerobics.
> 
> I agree with you that no style is better than any other style, but some martial artists are just better than other martial artists.  Style has very little to do with it.
> 
> Respectfully, *


Yeah, in his school, but aren't you also talking out of your school's experience?  My experience in Korea was that they DID know how to defend, that's what we trained for.  My experience in some dojos in the US weren't all that great.  I now teach (not at a dojo) and I think my pupils know how to defend themselves.  I have a few relatives, some who are trained (maybe better than I am) and some who are not who I ask to spar with the other adults and the kids.  It is unexpected as they do fight differently.  Sometimes, I even get in there myself and do something that they wouldn't expect.  Of course, nobody kills each other, but pain is inseperable IMO when learning self-defense.


----------



## Carbon

Its unfair to compare someone who trains for a specific type of fighting against someone who is training to be a well rounded fighter.

Since a boxer trains to compete in a ring that has set rules and set limitations on what can be done its unfair to compare him to a MAist who has different rules and different limitations.

Now if you were to put both fighters in the same rules then the boxer would win, now if you let the boxer train to be a well rounded fighter then it comes down who is the better fighter and who is better prepared.

To make judgements about you, I can say that definately you couldn't stand with a serious boxer in the ring. I don't care what you say you couldn't. Unless for the simple fact that you yourself are a very experienced fighter who has had lots of fights.

Even watching amateur fights the people are very sloppy and very undertrained.

Oh and what does it mean when you brag about your sifu is like saying I have a friend who can throw a punch and you wouldn't believe how he threw a punch. Well ya lots of people can throw well exectued punches but it doesn't make them any special then the next person who can throw a well executed punch.


----------



## MartialArtist

Don't forget, I also boxed for many years and still do.  Boxing is a great way to get shape and learn self-defense at the same time.  Also, using hand skills from in-fighting emphasis arts like wing chun and boxing are useful in many situations, like on wet grass, etc. where kicking or grappling wouldn't be the best choice.  Also, most fights are ended with some sort of hand technique, be it a punch or an arm bar to etc.

Ummm...  Your BF% has a lot to do with your general health and conditioning.  No, you can have a 13% BF and still have really good stamina, but having around a 5% takes exercise and a clean diet.


----------



## Carbon

Being raised right and having good influences in your life can make it quite easy for someone to grow up and have a natural fitness.

I know it takes alot of work to get below 10% BF but alot of boxers don't have 5% body fat. Body builder have 5% bodyfat.

If you look at professional fighters you can see that there isn't huge muscle defintion like in body builders.


----------



## Zujitsuka

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *
> Yeah, in his school, but aren't you also talking out of your school's experience?  My experience in Korea was that they DID know how to defend, that's what we trained for.  My experience in some dojos in the US weren't all that great.  I now teach (not at a dojo) and I think my pupils know how to defend themselves.  I have a few relatives, some who are trained (maybe better than I am) and some who are not who I ask to spar with the other adults and the kids.  It is unexpected as they do fight differently.  Sometimes, I even get in there myself and do something that they wouldn't expect.  Of course, nobody kills each other, but pain is inseperable IMO when learning self-defense. *



No sir, I'm not talking about my school or my training experience.  I have never said anything like "In my school, we do such and such..."  I'm talking about most schools that I have visited, and other martial artists that I've met.  Most martial artists don't even train with hard contact or against resisting opponents, but they have this false sense of certainty that they can beat a boxer.

Boxers have a saying: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit."  Martial artists who don't train full contact and against resisting opponents, have a plan until they get clocked.  They then typically freeze up.  I've seen it happen dozens of times.

By virtue of the fact that boxer hit some, and get hit some, they are better at fighting than your average martial artist.

****AGAIN, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ANYONE ON THIS BOARD'S SCHOOL AND CURRICULUM.****

Perhaps your school is a diamond in the rought, but just visit other schools and you'll see for yourself.

Most schools that I have come across who claim they are teaching self defense, don't have street scenario training, nor do they train full contact and/or against a resisiting opponent.

As martial artists, when we say that we're going to teach people self defense, we have to make sure that is in fact what we're doing.  Again, most schools that I have visited who claim they have a self defense curriculum, are teaching ineffective tactics and strategies that will really get their students hurt in the street.


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *Boxing having a limited arsenal...  So?  If you're good at fighting at mid-range, then that would be your strong point and if you're good enough, all you need to know. *


 I was answering what someone else said about the limited arsenal. I didn't say anyone had a limited arsenal, I was saying that since someone had said boxers did, that I would have to say that I did too, since I only studied one system right now.


> _Originally posted by Carbon_
> 
> *Its unfair to compare someone who trains for a specific type of fighting against someone who is training to be a well rounded fighter.
> Since a boxer trains to compete in a ring that has set rules and set limitations on what can be done its unfair to compare him to a MAist who has different rules and different limitations.*


That is defeating the entire point of this thread. Thats like saying if you put a TKD person in a Kung Fu forms competition the Kung Fu person would kick his but. Well, of course he would. We are talking about pure fighting, we have mentioned several times about not being in a ring with rules enforced. I'm not saying a boxer can't fight, or couldn't beat any MAist on any given day. I'm saying that at the peak of their training, a boxer against a MA in a fight situation, the MA has an advantage over the boxer. I didn't even say the MA would win every time, just that he has the advantage. Its impossible to say one person would win over another, there are so many differentials.


> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka_
> 
> *Boxers have a saying: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit." Martial artists who don't train full contact and against resisting opponents, have a plan until they get clocked. They then typically freeze up. I've seen it happen dozens of times.
> By virtue of the fact that boxer hit some, and get hit some, they are better at fighting than your average martial artist.*


I agree with this, what I have been saying is that you have to use two people of the same caliber. The average boxer against the average MAist? Probably. I guess the "average" MAist is the go to class twice a week for fitness. BUT, you put a boxer of extended training against a MAist of extended training, and then you see my point.


7sm

:asian:


----------



## Zujitsuka

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *
> I agree with this, what I have been saying is that you have to use two people of the same caliber. The average boxer against the average MAist? Probably. I guess the "average" MAist is the go to class twice a week for fitness. BUT, you put a boxer of extended training against a MAist of extended training, and then you see my point.
> 
> 
> 7sm
> 
> :asian: *



I agree with your point provided that the martial artist is using the correct methods to train (i.e. full contact for striking, and a resisting opponent for grappling).  Othewise, it doesn't matter how much the martial artist is training, or how well conditioned they are.  If they can't stand the heat when it comes, their goose is cooked.  They will not have the timing, distancing, and calm necessary to win the fight.  The only way one can learn to adapt and overcome in a fight is through full-contact and resisting opponents.


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *To make judgements about you, I can say that definately you couldn't stand with a serious boxer in the ring. I don't care what you say you couldn't. Unless for the simple fact that you yourself are a very experienced fighter who has had lots of fights.*


I think it is a little petty to start attacking me personaly for my opinion. How do you know what my training regime is? How do you know that I do not currently train against boxers? You have no way of having any idea about any of that, so your continual attacks on me are only making you look like an ***.



> _Originally posted by Carbon_
> *Oh and what does it mean when you brag about your sifu is like saying I have a friend who can throw a punch and you wouldn't believe how he threw a punch. Well ya lots of people can throw well exectued punches but it doesn't make them any special then the next person who can throw a well executed punch. *


I don't remember braging about anyone. I was saying that my sifu has mastered the technique behind our punches. I didn't say anything about no one else being able to throw well executed punches, neither did I say anything about anyone being special because of their punching. I think you need to calm down just a bit and stop looking for a fight. I'm not insulting you at all, I am simply stating my opinion. If that causes you to take such a personal offense, you should check your reasonings.

7sm


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *Its unfair to compare someone who trains for a specific type of fighting against someone who is training to be a well rounded fighter.
> 
> Since a boxer trains to compete in a ring that has set rules and set limitations on what can be done its unfair to compare him to a MAist who has different rules and different limitations.
> 
> Now if you were to put both fighters in the same rules then the boxer would win, now if you let the boxer train to be a well rounded fighter then it comes down who is the better fighter and who is better prepared.
> 
> To make judgements about you, I can say that definately you couldn't stand with a serious boxer in the ring. I don't care what you say you couldn't. Unless for the simple fact that you yourself are a very experienced fighter who has had lots of fights.
> 
> Even watching amateur fights the people are very sloppy and very undertrained.
> 
> Oh and what does it mean when you brag about your sifu is like saying I have a friend who can throw a punch and you wouldn't believe how he threw a punch. Well ya lots of people can throw well exectued punches but it doesn't make them any special then the next person who can throw a well executed punch. *


Yeah, that's basically true.

With the techniques and training methods evolving and the older the art gets, the more effecient for that set of rules it becomes.  You can't expect to beat a boxer in a ring if you're not a ring.  And you can't expect a boxer to win in a sport TKD competition.  You're not going to beat a wrestler on the mat using collegiate rules.


----------



## MartialArtist

Yes, 7starmantis, I knew you were replying to someone else.  I was just adding my two pennies with your's.

But who are you to judge the average martial artist?  Who is anyone to judge the average martial artist?  The average martial artist in the US would be totally different than the average martial artist in a place like Hong Kong or Bangkok for instance.


----------



## MartialArtist

Lots of people know how to punch.  But I have only seen a few people who mastered the technique.  Once you master the different types of punches and their counterparts/variations, you will know.  Mastering the punch, one of the easiest techniques, is actually pretty hard to learn.  No, not a jab, but you do develop unmatched power and speed once you master it.


----------



## muayThaiPerson

the winner of a match is determined by the amount of experience.  its more less the style then...if u put two guys of the same experiencce size and wieght in the ring, but do differnt arts MA and the other is obviously boxing, who would be the one with the advantage? boxing has the quick punches but the MAist has the kicks and techniques. but less punching ability. who would have the advantage???

i would say the MAist


----------



## Carbon

The point is in the ring where a boxer is meant to fight would beat a MAist because he couldn't kick because that would be against the rules.

I'm sorry but to say just fighting is ignorance in itself for the simple fact that you can't measure the pure "FIGHTING" of one type of training methods, but you could measure the fighting in say a particular fighter against a particular fighter.

Also you say you train with serious boxers? Lol please don't make me laugh. You probably have never even seen a serious boxer. You know one system in your style and you are saying that you now hold the arsenal to destroy a boxer?

I mean what your pretty much putting down is that you are an untrained 7 star mantis practioner that is saying his system with only 1 system learned not even mastered is enough to compete with a boxer.

Don't try to deny it because I've already read it. Also the thing about your sifu is you were posting as if you were so incredibly amazed that your sifu was the sh!* upon sh!* of anyone you've seen this is why I commented it as bragging.

I do agree with MartialArtists views mostly about the discussion going on here. You can't say which fighting system is better end of discussion.

Except if you were in a bar, or an alley, or lets say a bathroom. With the types of styles people here practice that are gear'd towards kicking and have limited striking ability. Oh and lets say you ran into a boxer then you would probably lose a fight in close quarters.

People in real situations your not going to be in an open field getting into a fight with a boxer. Its mostly going to be in a public play with limited room to fight.


----------



## Kirk

Mod. Note

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

Kirk

-MT Mod.-


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *The point is in the ring where a boxer is meant to fight would beat a MAist because he couldn't kick because that would be against the rules.*


Well, thats the point of this thread. I think to say in any situation that one particular person will deffinatly beat the other is a little presumptious. What I have been saying if you actually read my posts is that the MAist would have an advantage. IT is rediculous to say this person would win against this person without a doubt.



> *
> Also you say you train with serious boxers? Lol please don't make me laugh. You probably have never even seen a serious boxer. You know one system in your style and you are saying that you now hold the arsenal to destroy a boxer?
> I mean what your pretty much putting down is that you are an untrained 7 star mantis practioner that is saying his system with only 1 system learned not even mastered is enough to compete with a boxer.*



Lets go back and read my post Carbon, I didn't actually say I trained with serious boxers. I'm trying to make a point that you keep jumping to conclusions without anything to support your statements. Now, that aside, yes, I do train once a week with a serious boxer. He has trained in several MA styles including BJJ, MT, KF, and Tai Chi. He has been boxing for the past 2 years. He competes at local, and state levels. Would that be agreeable that he is a serious boxer?

Now lets get to the other accusation you spit out without any knowledge. The fact that I only train in 7*pm now doesn't mean I have never trained in any other system. If you look at my profile, I have been training in Kung Fu since 7 years old. I studied Dragon Kung Fu, and also I studied JKD for 8 years. Now, who are you to determine if I have only begun to learn my system or if I have "mastered" it? You have never even seen me. You know nothing about me. I would not profess to have "mastered" any system, and would be very wary about anyone who claims they have. I would say with that training under my belt, I feel very confident to compete against a serious boxer. I feel confident competing against any serious athlete. I'm not saying I would win against anyone anywhere, I 'm not saying I would win at all, I'm saying I feel confident competing. Lets get back to the topic though, this thread is not about my training or my skill level, it is about two systems. I would believe you consider yourself to be a serious boxer, is that correct? I respect any serious athelete regardless of style, you should too, we are both still athletes regardless of our different styles.



> *
> Don't try to deny it because I've already read it. Also the thing about your sifu is you were posting as if you were so incredibly amazed that your sifu was the sh!* upon sh!* of anyone you've seen this is why I commented it as bragging.*



I'm not denying anything, there is nothing to deny, please read my profile and previous posts in other threads. I never said my sifu was better than anyone, lets not start making false acusations again. If I am impressed with my sifu or sigungs abilities, what is that to you? Why should that threaten you? Read "MartialArtist's" post above, he agrees about the technique of punching. Once masterd it is a beautiful thing. Saying that someone has mastered punching and is impressive is not saying anyone else has not mastered it. I do not understand why you feel so threatened by my opinions and views. I wasn't bragging I was makign a point that while a serious boxer has mastered the art of punching in his system, my sifu has masterd the art of punching in his system. Both can punch, both punch differently. There is a discussion goign on in a different thread that punchin is punching regardless. True, but the are very different in technique. I was attempting to relate that just because boxers main attack is the punch, does not mean that they are better at punching than another system.



> *
> Except if you were in a bar, or an alley, or lets say a bathroom. With the types of styles people here practice that are gear'd towards kicking and have limited striking ability. Oh and lets say you ran into a boxer then you would probably lose a fight in close quarters. People in real situations your not going to be in an open field getting into a fight with a boxer. Its mostly going to be in a public play with limited room to fight.  *



Thats the thing about my system, we are not geared towards kicking. In 7*pm we are noted for extremely fast and effective hand techniques. All of our techniques are designed to be pulled off in VERY close quarters. We practice our techniques in spaces smaller than an elevator. I think I know more than alot of people how to effectivly handle a confrontation in a confined area. Do some research on my system before you say things that you have no idea about. I think alot of MA systems focus on close quarters. Some more than others, but I believe alot do.

7sm


----------



## Carbon

I believe I said gear'd towards kicking. Lol, I mean you say I make assumptions I said gear'd towards kicking so if your system isn't about kicking then I guess you had no reason to comment huh?

I live in Texas so I wouldn't mind knowing the name of the Boxer you train with or the Sifu you train with. Maybe some day I'll stop by your class and watch you train.

Also a serious boxer is one who has trained in many different styles and has only been boxing for 2 years? No I do not consider this a serious boxer. You yourself said you studied JKD for 8 years? Now if you said this boxer had been boxing for 8 years then maybe I'd be alitle bit more agreeable with his seriousness.

Also its quite easy to say seeing is believing and this is a trait everyone will always have. Especially me over the internet. So until you have some video's of you do anything athletic then I will be doubtful no offense its just the nature of humans.


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *I believe I said gear'd towards kicking. Lol, I mean you say I make assumptions I said gear'd towards kicking so if your system isn't about kicking then I guess you had no reason to comment huh?*



Um,   I'm not sure what this means, I'm confused.



> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> *I live in Texas so I wouldn't mind knowing the name of the Boxer you train with or the Sifu you train with. Maybe some day I'll stop by your class and watch you train.*



My Sifu is Brandon Jones of Tyler Kung Fu and Fitness
My Sigung is Master Rayomd Fogg who actually used to teach in Dallas, very close to you. You can read about him in Salt For Slugs, a magazine out of Austin. Its online, can't think of the link, but its not hard to find.
My traiing partners name is Christian. 
Feel free anytime your in East Texas to stop by my school, I would be happy to work out with you.



> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> *Also a serious boxer is one who has trained in many different styles and has only been boxing for 2 years? No I do not consider this a serious boxer. You yourself said you studied JKD for 8 years? Now if you said this boxer had been boxing for 8 years then maybe I'd be alitle bit more agreeable with his seriousness.*



I'm sorry if he doesn't meet your high standards, he's actually only been competing for 2 years, I don't know how long he has trained in boxing. Do you consider yourself to be a serious boxer ? I'm only asking because if you do, I would be happy to work out with you and see what we each can offer each other. No sarcasm there, its a friendly invite.



> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> Also its quite easy to say seeing is believing and this is a trait everyone will always have. Especially me over the internet. So until you have some video's of you do anything athletic then I will be doubtful no offense its just the nature of humans. [/B]


Once again, this thread is not about me or my training, so I do not see a reason to keep goign along this line. Seeing is believeing for alot of people, but I feel no need to prove anything about myself, we are discussing systems here and not personal people. I do appreciate your opinoins though.


7sm


----------



## MartialArtist

I've been boxing since my preteen/teen years.

Carbon is right, in a sense.  I would say a boxer would excel in his comfort zone which Carbon said was close-range but I believe it's medium range.  Close-range IMO would be elbows, knees, locks, takedowns, etc.


----------



## Marginal

Does Carbon even practice any form of MA at all? (IIRC, he just claimed to read a lot.)


----------



## Carbon

I don't know what IIRC means.....but in MA no? Do I box? Yes I do.

Am I a serious boxer no, since I'm young and there is no reason for me to devote all my time to boxing since its what I do to try and stay in shape along with cardio and lifting workouts.

I am in the process of joining American Kenpo Karate. 

What I meant 7th was that I was meaning that close quarter fights for kicking arts would be hard to defend against a boxer.


----------



## MartialArtist

Well, of course you are going to have some bias then.  My suggestion is if you want a clearer view of the martial arts and how hard they train, go to Asia.  It will change your view completely.  So don't think your little world and experience is what's true in other regions.  Just in the US, I'm betting the average Joe could beat the average Mickey D MAist in the US.  Not so true elsewhere.


----------



## Carbon

You can't compare a communist society. 

I mean come on they have no choices over anything and they are psycho disciplined. They live their lives just getting disciplined over and over whether it be at the MA school or at there house.

I would never want to live or go to asia for the simple fact that its chaos.


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *You can't compare a communist society.
> 
> I mean come on they have no choices over anything and they are psycho disciplined. They live their lives just getting disciplined over and over whether it be at the MA school or at there house.
> 
> I would never want to live or go to asia for the simple fact that its chaos. *



You really are young aren't you. Asia is by no means chaos. This is what stereotypes do to people. You believe everyone in asia if forced to practice MA and that is all they do. People who have not studied think this all the time. And you are saying Asia is a communist society? I didn't know Asia was any society, but many. You really should broaden your mind. I have never seen beauty like there is in China. Just one comparison of the difference is in classes here we condition by holding the horse stance for 5 or 6 minutes in class. There they show up hours before class  to be the first person there, and they hold horse stance uintil class starts, then the first hour of class is the horse stance. I've never seen more dedication and intetnsive training in my life then when we went to China.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *I am in the process of joining American Kenpo Karate. *



"Process" ???  What process are you talking about?  Ya sign the
contract, you give him your money and it's done.  What's up?


----------



## Bod

I still don't understand why people contrast boxers with martial artists.

Boxing is a martial art. Yes it is a sport, and a profession, but so is Judo for some people, and yet it is a martial art too.

Contrasting boxing with *a given style* of martial art might be more productive.

Useful knowledge can come from examining each styles weaknesses and strengths compared to other styles, and how that style can best cope with another style without simply incorporating elements of that other style.

For instance a Karate block probably won't work against a boxer, but against a grappler it would have some effect.

To me a boxer is a martial artist.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *You can't compare a communist society.
> 
> I mean come on they have no choices over anything and they are psycho disciplined. They live their lives just getting disciplined over and over whether it be at the MA school or at there house.
> 
> I would never want to live or go to asia for the simple fact that its chaos. *


I see you're talking out of ignorance.

You probably never went outside the Western world.

I went to Hong Kong after the Britain 'era' and it was fine.  People go to Beijing, or the other places of China.  South Korea and Japan are technologically advanced.  Thailand is also nice and although a bit humid, it has great sights.  The only place you really can't go is North Korea.


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Bod _
> 
> *I still don't understand why people contrast boxers with martial artists.
> 
> Boxing is a martial art. Yes it is a sport, and a profession, but so is Judo for some people, and yet it is a martial art too.
> 
> Contrasting boxing with *a given style* of martial art might be more productive.
> 
> Useful knowledge can come from examining each styles weaknesses and strengths compared to other styles, and how that style can best cope with another style without simply incorporating elements of that other style.
> 
> For instance a Karate block probably won't work against a boxer, but against a grappler it would have some effect.
> 
> To me a boxer is a martial artist. *



I can agree with that, since I have studied CMA and no other, I am really only relating a boxer to CMA anyway. It is true that a boxer would be considered a martial artisit in the true sense of the word.

7sm


----------



## Abbax8

This discussion was old in 1967 when I started judo. But it can be interesting. Boxing, wrestling, etc. are MA. Just from a different tradition. Which is superior, who will win in a fight. The one who has trained harder and is in better shape. If training and skill in the respective arts are equal, the edge goes to the one who has more weapons in their arsenal and can use them effectively. But that is theoretical. Things are never equal, and in a match or a fight, crap happens. Besides, the implication in the discussion is that a boxer can't kick, sweep or throw. Who says. A kick to knee doesn't take years of training and a trip is almost instinctive, just watch 2 kids wrestling around some day. Just my opinion.

                                                             Peace
                                                             Dennis


----------



## Carbon

Process meaning I have no money and I'm trying to find a new job so I can sign up for classes.

Um, I know alot of asian people from China, Korea, Japan you name it. The culture of asian country's is very disciplined. 

This is why they are so well respected when they compare workers from america and workers from any asian country where they live to work they don't work to live. I mean the whole mentality between the two places is very huge.

This is why the average asian MAist would probably stand alot better chance then the american average MAist. Yes this may be generalizing and Yes I understand that there are seperate country's within asia and they are not all communist.


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *Process meaning I have no money and I'm trying to find a new job so I can sign up for classes.
> 
> Um, I know alot of asian people from China, Korea, Japan you name it. The culture of asian country's is very disciplined.
> 
> This is why they are so well respected when they compare workers from america and workers from any asian country where they live to work they don't work to live. I mean the whole mentality between the two places is very huge.
> 
> This is why the average asian MAist would probably stand alot better chance then the american average MAist. Yes this may be generalizing and Yes I understand that there are seperate country's within asia and they are not all communist. *



The many asian people you know are imagrants from these countries? I'm half native american, have my tribal affiliation and everything, still I would not consider myself an expert on how Native Americans are or were treated. I've been to many reservations, but I've never lived on one. My point is, even someone who has roots from one country doesn't mean they know whats goign on over there now, especially at 17 years of age. 

I don't know what you mean about asian workers being more respected than american workers, I think someone has given you false information there. The decline in the need for MA in many countries has attributed to the decline of the teaching and or practicing of many MA. I would generalize more in that a MAist who trains extensivly has a better chance than a MAist who does not train very much, regardless of country of origin.

7sm


----------



## huntly_kickboxing

A boxer uses his hands a martial artist uses his body as a weapon. But we had a boxer come down to our club, he was training for his first pro fight, he went 15 by 3 minute rounds againest 5 of our kickboxers. The lads used hands only, the share power the boxer pocessed was scarey but on the plus side for our 5 KBoxers all lasted (with sore ribbs and heads the next day) and had only been training form 1 to 2 years the boxer had been training for 15 years!!


----------



## Tez3

We do full contact MMA so we also make sure we can box as well as do other MA. I have no problems going up against a boxer using his sport.


----------

