# Importantance of Head Movement



## TMA17 (Feb 28, 2018)




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## Headhunter (Feb 28, 2018)

Personally I don't like head movement. Never used it. It's to risky. Boxing is okay but for things like kickboxing, Mma or self defence you duck or sway the wrong way you go right into the shot


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## TMA17 (Feb 28, 2018)

You make a good point.  So do you prefer blocking or just footwork instead?  There is a good video you may have seen of a guy paying people to try and hit him and he dodged every one.  It was impressive.


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## Buka (Feb 28, 2018)

I dream of Christmas cookies, winning lotteries....and people not moving their head when fighting.

I mean, it's really nice of them to keep it right there.


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## Headhunter (Feb 28, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> You make a good point.  So do you prefer blocking or just footwork instead?  There is a good video you may have seen of a guy paying people to try and hit him and he dodged every one.  It was impressive.


I don't doubt it but there's still a huge risk. That video shows Anderson silva and yeah he looks great there but he also got knocked out trying the same thing in another fight


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## Headhunter (Feb 28, 2018)

Pause the video at about 0:14 when Garbrant ducks low he could very easily duck right into a knee if cruz timed it right


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## Headhunter (Feb 28, 2018)

Here we are perfect example. Yeah okay it's more a takedown attempt but similar thing


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## Buka (Feb 28, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Pause the video at about 0:14 when Garbrant ducks low he could very easily duck right into a knee if cruz timed it right



That boy is going to get killed doing that someday.


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## TMA17 (Feb 28, 2018)




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## Martial D (Feb 28, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Personally I don't like head movement. Never used it. It's to risky. Boxing is okay but for things like kickboxing, Mma or self defence you duck or sway the wrong way you go right into the shot



I would say it's a lot more risky to keep your head on center.


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## Anarax (Feb 28, 2018)

Head movement like anything else requires a lot of training before you can utilize it. Like blocking, there are right and wrong ways to do so. Moving your head out of the way of an attack while keeping your hands up, good. Showboating and dropping your hands while dancing in front of your opponent, bad. Coming from a "traditional" background I never trained head movement until I started training FMA. It made evasions and setting up counters much easier.


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## Martial D (Feb 28, 2018)

It's much easier to hit something that doesn't move.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 28, 2018)

When you 

- dodge a punch, your opponent will punch you again.
- block a punch and wrap that arm, your opponent won't be able to punch you again.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2018)

TMA17 said:


>


Still going with the head movement idea.   It's ok to like it.  Just understand that it has some limitations.  If someone knows you like to do a lot of head movement, they will throw a punch to set you up for a knee strike or a kick.  When I know that I'm fighting someone that likes to do a lot of head movement, I just start attacking the body and the legs and eventually that head movement gets slower and slower.


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## Martial D (Feb 28, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you
> 
> - dodge a punch, your opponent will punch you again.
> - block a punch and wrap that arm, your opponent won't be able to punch you again.


 
Sure, and if you

-deal with punches by trying to block them all and catch them with your arms you will probably take an unscheduled nap.

-keep your head offline and in motion you will retain your ability to eat solid food.


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## Anarax (Feb 28, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Sure, and if you
> 
> -deal with punches by trying to block them all and catch them with your arms you will probably take an unscheduled nap.
> 
> -keep your head offline and in motion you will retain your ability to eat solid food.


Maybe I like my food grined down into a fine paste. I agree, it's doesn't have to be an either or situation. There will be situations that head movement may be more beneficial than blocking and vice versa. Drilling both with proper form is a great way for martial artists to improve their defensive skills.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2018)

Anarax said:


> head movement


head movement itself is not bad.  Like many things it's just how it's done that can get you into alot of trouble.  I use head movement but it's done by shifting off center vs moving my head around like a boxer.  Much of my head movement that I do is the result of short shuffles to move my head out of range.  This way I can still attack and counter when ready, even when I'm moving off center vs.  Moving the head first and countering or attacking second.


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## Anarax (Feb 28, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Like many things it's just how it's done that can get you into alot of trouble.


Yes, dropping the head too low, having your hands down and not executing counters are the most common mistakes people make.


JowGaWolf said:


> I use head movement but it's done by shifting off center vs moving my head around like a boxer.


Though that can be considered head movement, I was more so referring to slipping, bobbing and weaving. However; that could be more stylistic differences. There are slight yet crucial differences in slipping, bobbing and weaving when discussing the sport of boxing and FMA/MA. In FMA/MA they teach us to not bend at the waist, keep your hands up and move with intent. FMA obviously has a more martial approach to head movement thus we must deal with kicks, knees and other low attacks. Meaning, taking the "boxing" head movement into an MMA bout or real world application may not be the best, but the more FMA/MA style of head movement is a great skill to have.  


JowGaWolf said:


> This way I can still attack and counter when ready, even when I'm moving off center vs. Moving the head first and countering or attacking second.


If it works for you then I would keep doing it, but there are other styles of head movement that are also effective. I think it comes down to preferences, but I always prefer to approach it from a MA standpoint rather than a sport one. It sounds you have a similar approach as well.


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## Danny T (Feb 28, 2018)

Head movement is an important aspect. When to move and why is also important. Doing so just to be taunting or showboating can be a dangerous thing.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 1, 2018)

Anarax said:


> If it works for you then I would keep doing it, but there are other styles of head movement that are also effective. I think it comes down to preferences


Actually it doesn't just work for me.  It's the only way the long fist techniques of Jow Ga can work.  The bobbing and weaving actually takes me out of the structure that's needed to throw the big punches, sweeps, and elbow strikes.  Some systems simply don't have the structure that would work well with the boxer's head movement, the one I study just happens to be that way.


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## drop bear (Mar 1, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Actually it doesn't just work for me.  It's the only way the long fist techniques of Jow Ga can work.  The bobbing and weaving actually takes me out of the structure that's needed to throw the big punches, sweeps, and elbow strikes.  Some systems simply don't have the structure that would work well with the boxer's head movement, the one I study just happens to be that way.



Your saying head movement doesn't work for long fist?


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## _Simon_ (Mar 1, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Your saying head movement doesn't work for long fist?


How CAN it??



(Sorry.... I really couldn't help it XD)


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 1, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Your saying head movement doesn't work for long fist?


I'm saying the way that *boxers head move movement* doesn't work for *Jow Ga which is a long fist technique*.  The structure that is created with the bobbing (leaning back, leaning to the side, ducking while leaning forward." doesn't work well with the structure that's needed to* throw long fist techniques*.  Long fist techniques require a good rooting structure so your punches don't throw you off balance.   

This is a basic punch Jow Ga Punch.   Hung Ga, Choy Ga, Lama Pai, and Choy Li Fut have similar punches.  Try to bob and weave like a boxer then follow up with this this punch.  Then you will understand fully the problem that the movement causes. What you'll notice is that it takes longer to execute the technique.  The way that these systems approach head movement is that the head movement is built into the strikes.


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## Buka (Mar 1, 2018)

I don't understand why head movement wouldn't work with that. At the end of that technique shown, if something came winging at the head, why wouldn't, or couldn't, you move your head?


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## Anarax (Mar 1, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Actually it doesn't just work for me. It's the only way the long fist techniques of Jow Ga can work.


That all depends on the practitioner and the "purity" of the system they wish to maintain or not. I have experience in Choy Li Fut and have incorporated head movement into sparring and application. It doesn't directly contradict any long fist principals that I'm aware of, nor was I unable to incorporate it into my Choy Li Fut. 


JowGaWolf said:


> The bobbing and weaving actually takes me out of the structure that's needed to throw the big punches, sweeps, and elbow strikes.


As I said with the more FMA./MA style of head movement, you don't need to break your structure for all head movement. Bending at the waist, moving without purpose and leaning forward are bad habits, proper head movement could be incorporated into many martial arts styles without issue.


JowGaWolf said:


> Some systems simply don't have the structure that would work well with the boxer's head movement, the one I study just happens to be that way.


It's not the "boxer's head movement" I'm referring to, it's the martial arts version of head movement that can be incorporated.


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## Martial D (Mar 1, 2018)

The idea of wild swinging head movement in boxing is a bit of a red herring though isn't it? Most head movement in boxing is a matter of inches.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 1, 2018)

Buka said:


> I don't understand why head movement wouldn't work with that. At the end of that technique shown, if something came winging at the head, why wouldn't, or couldn't, you move your head?


There would be no need use a boxer's head movement at the end of that technique.  There are different follow up techniques to use that address what you are talking about.  To choose head movement vs those techniques would be a missed opportunity.  To be honest the boxer's head movement would be slower from this position.

If something came at the head he could simply untwist. Using that extended arm to address the incoming strike and follow up with a jab or thrust punch.  Or if it's high enough to duck. He could simply shuffle forward and sink into a thrust punch.  The sinking would be equivalent to ducking.   Or the person can do the kneeling punch that is often seen in kung fu posses, or the person can do a sweep from that position.  Each of the strikes that I mentioned would move the head out of danger.

If the opponent throws a jab to the head, then that lead arm that's extended is in position to interfere with the jab and at the same time launch a jab or a punch to the body at the same time you disrupt your opponent's jab.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 1, 2018)

Anarax said:


> That all depends on the practitioner and the "purity" of the system they wish to maintain or not. I have experience in Choy Li Fut and have incorporated head movement into sparring and application. It doesn't directly contradict any long fist principals that I'm aware of, nor was I unable to incorporate it into my Choy Li Fut.





Anarax said:


> It's not the "boxer's head movement" I'm referring to, it's the martial arts version of head movement that can be incorporated.


I responded before reading this.  From what I understand from this statement you and I are talking about the same things.  The martial arts version of head movement that can be incorporated. YES.  I use head movement in this context all the time. 

The "boxer's head" movement was developed from the perspective of not using kicks and knees, and as such boxers are able to use head movements that move into zones that would otherwise be dangerous zones for kicking, kneeing, and sweeping.  When I was speaking of head movment I was only referring to the head movement that boxers do and not head movement in general.   

You and I have the same or similar perceptions of "boxer head movement" vs "Martial Arts Head movement"


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## Buka (Mar 1, 2018)

I'm not referring to "boxing" head movement. Just moving one's head in general. 
I mean, if you were riding a bike and suddenly saw a low tree branch in front of you that you hadn't seen, I think one would duck.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 1, 2018)

Buka said:


> I'm not referring to "boxing" head movement. Just moving one's head in general.
> I mean, if you were riding a bike and suddenly saw a low tree branch in front of you that you hadn't seen, I think one would duck.


 My reading is bad...today. I'm too quick with the keyboard.   I agree with you.. moving one's head in general is good.


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## jobo (Mar 1, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Sure, and if you
> 
> -deal with punches by trying to block them all and catch them with your arms you will probably take an unscheduled nap.
> 
> -keep your head offline and in motion you will retain your ability to eat solid food.


agreed, this is just the," blocking is useless" thread again ( before it,got dragged off course)

if your art consists of positions that don't,allow head movement or evasive foot movements, then a)  don't get into fights, b) only get into fights with very,drunk people or c) take up an art that does


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## TMA17 (Mar 1, 2018)

Boxing head movements don’t have to and are often not that large of an area. I still think head movement is valuable.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 1, 2018)

Just a reference video:  This is ducking for Jow Ga. (what the guy in  black is doing).    In Jow Ga, a duck is not supposed to be just a duck to avoid the punch.  We follow the theory that 2 things can be done at the same time, in this case, ducking and striking.  Normally I would be showing my own videos, but I'm no longer able to show my videos in public.   The biggest danger of this technique is moving to the wrong side, which is what this guy has done.  You don't want to move into your opponent's power side when doing this technique.  You want to move in a way that forces your opponent to realign his or her footing.  You want to use "split seconds" realigning instead of using "split seconds" to counter strike.  it's like in boxing.  Slip to the outside and not towards the power.   Other than that it shows the basic technique.


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## Anarax (Mar 1, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> The "boxer's head" movement was developed from the perspective of not using kicks and knees, and as such boxers are able to use head movements that move into zones that would otherwise be dangerous zones for kicking, kneeing, and sweeping.


Western boxing was heavily influenced by Filipino Martial arts. Filipino Boxing(Panantukan/Suntukan) already had head movement that closely resembles the head movement you see in boxing today. However; Panantukan is a martial arts style or sub-style(depends on who you ask) that had to deal with the "dangerous zones" you're referring to. That's why head movement in Panantukan doesn't lean forward nor place their heads in dangerous positions for low attacks. The sport of boxing gradually started to adopt the low leaning head because the rules prohibit kneeing and kicking. Meaning the differences between the sport boxing head movement and the martial arts head movement are physically small but dynamically crucial.


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## Danny T (Mar 1, 2018)

Head movement can be;
Just movement of the neck and head
Movement from the waist,
Movement from shifting the center of gravity
Movement from moving the feet and whole body.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 1, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Western boxing was heavily influenced by Filipino Martial arts. Filipino Boxing(Panantukan/Suntukan) already had head movement that closely resembles the head movement you see in boxing today. However; Panantukan is a martial arts style or sub-style(depends on who you ask) that had to deal with the "dangerous zones" you're referring to. That's why head movement in Panantukan doesn't lean forward nor place their heads in dangerous positions for low attacks. The sport of boxing gradually started to adopt the low leaning head because the rules prohibit kneeing and kicking. Meaning the differences between the sport boxing head movement and the martial arts head movement are physically small but dynamically crucial.


I had to look it up and I can see what you are saying about the 2 systems.  I took a look at some of the basics and there was a lot of techniques that I was familiar with and it was interesting to see how those techniques were applied differently.  

Looks like a fighting system I would enjoy.


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## Buka (Mar 1, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Normally I would be showing my own videos, but I'm no longer able to show my videos in public.



Ruh rho, did we get you in trouble?


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## drop bear (Mar 1, 2018)

Buka said:


> I don't understand why head movement wouldn't work with that. At the end of that technique shown, if something came winging at the head, why wouldn't, or couldn't, you move your head?



Which is sort of what I was thinking.


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## drop bear (Mar 1, 2018)

Martial D said:


> The idea of wild swinging head movement in boxing is a bit of a red herring though isn't it? Most head movement in boxing is a matter of inches.



Head off line is kind of the theory. I use the rocky creed quote in front of the mirror a bit for this.

Every time you punch there is one coming back.

Otherwise when your head moves your hips should follow so you are not hanging out there waiting to get popped.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 1, 2018)

Buka said:


> Ruh rho, did we get you in trouble?


Nah.  it was a cultural issue.  The Chinese don't have the same perspective of Martial Arts as westerners.  When Chinese think martial arts, the first image that comes to their minds are thugs and zen.   In other words, only thugs use martial arts to fight.  Good people only use it for health.   In the U.S. it's totally different.  Good people use martial arts to fight, defend, and for health.  Most people who are thugs in the U.S. don't take a martial arts.

Well longer story short, my display of martial arts usage went against the image that the of the organization wanted to show and how the Chinese Jow Ga associations want to show Jow Ga.  This isn't a system wide view.  Not all Jow Ga organizations are like this, just the one that I'm a part of.


I wasn't kicked out of the organization so that's always a good sign lol.


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## Anarax (Mar 1, 2018)

I couldn't resist


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## TMA17 (Mar 2, 2018)

Just standing there like an upright dummy lol.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 2, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Head off line is kind of the theory. I use the rocky creed quote in front of the mirror a bit for this.
> 
> Every time you punch there is one coming back.
> 
> Otherwise when your head moves your hips should follow so you are not hanging out there waiting to get popped.


  Good point.  I know a technique that is based on this.  It's a strange one, but it's a combination technique.  The way it works is that the first punch causes the person to move their head off the center line.  The second punch catches the head coming back to the center line.  There is MOVING THE CENTER LINE vs MOVING OFF THE CENTER LINE.   

My first use of the technique was insane because I had to pull my punches off target to prevent from knocking my fellow classmate into a daze.  Even though I pulled the punches off target they were punching at full depth of his head.  With my fist passing close to his head, it looked as if I could punch completely through.  I had a good laugh because my classmate thought he was slipping punches, and I guess that's part of why the technique works.  People usually slip punches from left to right or right to left.  But because they don't  actually move the center line, one can count on the head coming back to the center line. 



Anarax said:


> I couldn't resist


  She had head movement.  Bobble head movement and whiplash head movement.


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## TMA17 (Mar 4, 2018)

Head Movement In A Street Fight


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## Buka (Mar 4, 2018)

On the Rousey thing....




There's her "boxing" coach. Who does not know _thing one_ about boxing. Especially head movement.
And why, in Heaven's name, would you take an outstanding, tremendously successful, and undefeated Judoka and try to turn her into a boxer? I mean, why?

Yeah, she should have known better. But she wasn't that sharp. I still feel bad for her. Or, more to the point, what he did for/to her. The fucktard.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2018)

Buka said:


> On the Rousey thing....
> 
> View attachment 21286
> 
> ...



Holly holms traded with Cyborg for 15 minutes.She is a phenomenal striker. 






But what this means is good striking kind of sets everything else up. so even if your plan was grappling it puts a spanner in that as well.

You could say the same about kabib vs barbosa.But if you are getting dismantled you will always look a bit technically deficient.


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