# Joe Schilling, Pro Kickboxer/MMA Fighter knocked out bar patron, claims self defense



## Anarax (Jul 1, 2021)

Joe Schiling video down below. What are your thoughts? Do you think it was justified or not? Schiling claimed he was in fear for his life and acted in self defense.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 1, 2021)

It is hard to say what the bar patron could have done to cause the MMA guy to 'defend himself', but from what can be seen, it looks a lot more like aggravated assault than self-defense. I'm not a cop or an attorney, that's simply my opinion.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 1, 2021)

Come on man.  Really?  Some guy flexed on him and he was afraid?  ha ha ha ha  yeah that won't ride.  Feared for his life?  Feared that he would be attacked?  Definitely.  Fear for his life?  Nah dude.  

I understand this





But I'm more of the mindset of did.  Dude tried to make him flinch and he KOed him simply because he was already irritated with this guy.  He was at that level where "You wish someone give you a reason to punch them."  So you spend that entire night ready to go.  All you need is for that dude to make the wrong move and you'll give it to him.  This is how I think






If you really fear for your life then, that usually comes in on the front end of a situation where you want to avoid it.  You aren't going to turn around and confront it.  

This is what fear for your life looks like.  Nothing about this photo makes you think that you aren't in harms way.  Do you think Joe Schiling would have made the same decision with one of these guys?  And then just finish his meal?  I already know how I would react.  As a teen playing basketball, this old guy beat the socks off a younger guy in Basketball.  Trashed talked and all.  The younger guy (20's ) had his Ego hurt, got clowned, and said he was going to fix this.  Someone heard him mumble about getting his gun and he warned the older guy..  Everyone cleared the courts that day.  I don't know if he came back to the courts or not. Didn't care as long as I wasn't there. lol.  I wasn't even afraid about him trying to shoot me, But I feared that I would catch that stray bullet.  






People use "I fear for my life" very losely.  You know who probably feared for his life.  That dude that ate those punches.  But after the 2nd one, that fear was probably gone and he probably just felt sleepy and decided to just take a nap. lol.  

Joe Schiling fearing that he was going to get attacked.   Yeah I give him that, even though I know he was waiting for that moment.  Fear for his life.  Yeah that's why Godzilla stomps Tokyo all the time lol.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2021)

I don't buy his claim that he feared for his life, but I also don't think that you have to fear for your life to defend yourself. The clown acted like he was going to punch, and got decked for it. There is no requirement (that I am aware of) to actually be hit before your defend yourself.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 1, 2021)

Interesting.  The legal aspect.  All of your MMA guys.  Kung Fu guys you don't have to worry about being seen as dangerous.


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## Buka (Jul 1, 2021)

This is a piece taken out of whatever the whole story is. And I have no idea what that might be.

So I can only speculate as a person who's worked in bars, as a Martial fighter and as a police officer.

So I speculate only. Maybe the guy deserved a good slap upside the head. But we don't know that, because, again, we don't know the whole story.

But, if you're that guy Joe, c'mon, "fear for his life"...we all pretty much know he's using that as  a legal term. And look at his approach when he first walks past the guy. Predatory, not casual, not in fear.

And if you're his size and his skill? C'mon. You could have just doped slapped that guy open handed then  just rag dolled him without really hurting him.

I know some Civil Attorneys who would love to take that case for the guy who got kayoed.

But again, we don't know what really led up to what we saw. Bottom line....I dunno.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 1, 2021)

Buka said:


> This is a piece taken out of whatever the whole story is. And I have no idea what that might be.
> 
> So I can only speculate as a person who's worked in bars, as a Martial fighter and as a police officer.
> 
> ...


They will probably clear up the "Fear for his life" statement.  Especially when they only need to show that it was reasonable to think that someone who jumps at you like that had an intent of actually attacking.  

Most people know the deal.  People in their 40's and and over couldn't get away with this stuff as a kid.  Or maybe it was just in my home lol.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 2, 2021)

Look, people are focusing on the wrong things here.  Things that do not matter to a court or the law in general.  The fact that the guy who got hit was acting like an ***, or being obnoxious, or giving people 'the eye' or whatever, don't matter.  They have no legal effect on the incident itself.  Precipitating factors, maybe.  Goes to motive, maybe.  But nothing to do with whether or not it was self-defense.  Only in Texas does the 'he needed killing' legal defense come into play.  The dude could have been the world's stupidest drunk, he could have been singing Kingston Trio lyrics to rap songs, it doesn't matter.

What matters is this.  When the MMA guy went by the guy who got smacked, he stopped.  He turned around to face the guy.

THAT is the moment the court and potentially jury would focus on.  WHY did he do that, why did he not just keep going?

He might argue that he turned around because the drunk guy said something to him and he turned around to find out what it was.  OK, I'll buy that.

Then the drunk dude took an aggressive posture.  MAYBE.

His hands dropped, he took a stance, and he made a slight lunging movement.  That's what I saw in the video.  Tell me if you saw him ball up a fist or raise his hands, because I didn't.

Now, was he lunging or was he drunk like everyone describes and trying to get his balance back?  We saw him staggering around, looking like your typical happy drunk, moments before.  He clearly did not have his balance under control very well.

So what will matter to a court or to a potential jury is what that 'lunge' movement means to a mythical 'reasonable and prudent person'.  Was it a threat?  If so, then yes, the MMA dude had every reason to stop the assault by striking first.  There is no duty to wait to be hit or even swung on before you can legally defend yourself.  Others have said that here, and they are correct, IMO.

If it was instead a drunk dude staggering around, then the 'reasonable and prudent person' would NOT have considered it a threat, making it not an assault.

And in any case, the MMA dude could have kept walking, couldn't he?  He did not have to turn around, did he?

My interpretation of the video I saw, which is my opinion only, without the context others have been providing about the previous bad behavior of the drunk, is this.  Drunk guy is being happy stupid at a bar.  Typical scene.  He accidently gets in the way of one patron, and moves back to give him space, clearly not being an aggressive drunk but a happy one.  He accidentally backs into the path of the MMA guy behind him, whom he does not see.  The MMA guy looks clearly pissed off and gives him a shove, not hard but not gently either.  The MMA guy pushes past the drunk and the drunk maybe says something.  The MMA guy, pissed off now, turns to confront the drunk, who staggers back and forth.  The MMA guy knocks out a guy who is beyond the ability to defend himself and is half the size of the MMA dude anyway.

I see it as aggravated assault on the MMA guy, if anything.

It's also one of the many reasons I do not go to bars. Stupid people go to bars and play stupid games and win stupid prizes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 2, 2021)

Buka said:


> This is a piece taken out of whatever the whole story is. And I have no idea what that might be.
> 
> So I can only speculate as a person who's worked in bars, as a Martial fighter and as a police officer.
> 
> ...


Yeah, from what we see in that clip, the MMA guy is being aggressive. He purposely steps into that space, and maybe purposely bumps the guy as he walks past. He turns to confront words (maybe the guy said something about him bumping him?) and steps into his space. That all looks bad. But, as you say, we don't know what led to that. The guy may have richly deserved it, though I think a claim of self-defense seems.....difficult, based on what we see here.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 2, 2021)

Buka said:


> So I speculate only. Maybe the guy deserved a good slap upside the head.





Buka said:


> And if you're his size and his skill? C'mon. You could have just doped slapped that guy open handed then  just rag dolled him without really hurting him.


My opinion, based only on comments here and NOT having watched the video.

some people are jerks and deserve a beating but are not an actual threat to anyone.  I am sure we are all that guy at some point in our life.  But even if it is deserved, that doesn’t give another fellow the authority or the right to give that beating.  

Some other people are just looking for an excuse to give a beating.

I think people need to grow the f**k up and let little meaningless slights and insults roll off their back.  Maybe one fellow deserved a beating for being a jerk.  Maybe the other fellow deserves a criminal prosecution for being a predator pretending to be scared and righteous.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 2, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> My opinion, based only on comments here and NOT having watched the video.
> 
> some people are jerks and deserve a beating but are not an actual threat to anyone.  I am sure we are all that guy at some point in our life.  But even if it is deserved, that doesn’t give another fellow the authority or the right to give that beating.
> 
> ...


I think you have the right of it.  People tend to confuse self-defense with dealing out retribution to people who 'deserve it'.  They guy could have been a class-A number one *#&@ but that doesn't really matter.  Even those guys have the right not to be beaten up.  Maybe it's sad, but either everyone has rights or no one does.

I have certainly run into people who enjoy hurting other people, and some of them were good at it.  Some even figured out how to make the other person do something first that they could point to and claim self-defense later.

The opposite is also true.  Just because the MMA dude is well-equipped to handle himself, it doesn't mean he has to stand there and be anyone else's punching bag either.  He's also allowed to defend himself.

I'm just not sure that what we saw was self-defense.  A tad iffy in my eyes.

Back before the days of cell phone videos everywhere, it would have been a case of one person's word against another, and very unlikely anything in the way of criminal charges would have come from it.

Now, on the other hand, if the drunk who got punched gets a few witnessed together and sues MMA dude, his management and insurance company are going to settle and it's going to cost them big.  That's also the way of the world these days.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 2, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think you have the right of it.  People tend to confuse self-defense with dealing out retribution to people who 'deserve it'.  They guy could have been a class-A number one *#&@ but that doesn't really matter.  Even those guys have the right not to be beaten up.  Maybe it's sad, but either everyone has rights or no one does.
> 
> I have certainly run into people who enjoy hurting other people, and some of them were good at it.  Some even figured out how to make the other person do something first that they could point to and claim self-defense later.
> 
> ...


I suspect that a whole lot of unnecessary and stoopid violence in our society stems from an inability to walk away from a situation that does not need an answer.  People feel that their masculinity is threatened and think that they need to save face and so escalate something idiotic into something tragic.  I could never understand that mentality.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 2, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I suspect that a whole lot of unnecessary and stoopid violence in our society stems from an inability to walk away from a situation that does not need an answer.  People feel that their masculinity is threatened and think that they need to save face and so escalate something idiotic into something tragic.  I could never understand that mentality.


As I said earlier in this thread (and tend to say a lot in RL), I stay out of bars because that is where stupid people go to do stupid things and win stupid prizes.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 2, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> As I said earlier in this thread (and tend to say a lot in RL), I stay out of bars because that is where stupid people go to do stupid things and win stupid prizes.


Yeah, I never did spend time in bars, never understood the attraction.  Couldn’t understand what anyone would want to be in them.  That goes for the neighborhood corner bar and the big sports bar and grill establishments.


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## Buka (Jul 2, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> As I said earlier in this thread (and tend to say a lot in RL), I stay out of bars because that is where stupid people go to do stupid things and win stupid prizes.


Me too. Think of the three main components of any bar....glass, liquor and people seeking to alter their consciousness.

Sprinkle in your occasional aggressive ashhat...what could possibly go wrong?


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 2, 2021)

I certainly did my share of hanging around in bars and getting stupid when I was younger, but fortunately for me, by my 30s, that desire had fled from me.  I'm glad it did.

I have mentioned before that one of our older dojo mates speaks sometimes of his brother, a karate student in the 60s and 70s who sought to prove his style in local bars by picking fights.  He speaks of him with wistfulness, because his brother picked a fight with a man who shot him in the face and killed him many decades ago.  I would urge others not to be that guy.


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## drop bear (Jul 2, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Look, people are focusing on the wrong things here.  Things that do not matter to a court or the law in general.  The fact that the guy who got hit was acting like an ***, or being obnoxious, or giving people 'the eye' or whatever, don't matter.  They have no legal effect on the incident itself.  Precipitating factors, maybe.  Goes to motive, maybe.  But nothing to do with whether or not it was self-defense.  Only in Texas does the 'he needed killing' legal defense come into play.  The dude could have been the world's stupidest drunk, he could have been singing Kingston Trio lyrics to rap songs, it doesn't matter.
> 
> What matters is this.  When the MMA guy went by the guy who got smacked, he stopped.  He turned around to face the guy.
> 
> ...



The innocent party is the guy with the best lawyer.


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## Anarax (Jul 2, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The innocent party is the guy with the best lawyer.


No such thing as innocent, just not guilty. Better call Saul


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## Anarax (Jul 2, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Look, people are focusing on the wrong things here.  Things that do not matter to a court or the law in general.  The fact that the guy who got hit was acting like an ***, or being obnoxious, or giving people 'the eye' or whatever, don't matter.  They have no legal effect on the incident itself.  Precipitating factors, maybe.  Goes to motive, maybe.  But nothing to do with whether or not it was self-defense.  Only in Texas does the 'he needed killing' legal defense come into play.  The dude could have been the world's stupidest drunk, he could have been singing Kingston Trio lyrics to rap songs, it doesn't matter.
> 
> What matters is this.  When the MMA guy went by the guy who got smacked, he stopped.  He turned around to face the guy.
> 
> ...


Well said. The story Joe is putting out is the guy was singing along with a rap song and gestured toward Africans Americans when he said the racial slur that was in the lyrics. Meaning, it's then okay for Joe to put hands on the man first, turn around when verbally confronted, step in closer to the patron, then strike him when he lunges forward. Seems legit to me. I've never been a fan of bars either.


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## MetalBoar (Jul 2, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I suspect that a whole lot of unnecessary and stoopid violence in our society stems from an inability to walk away from a situation that does not need an answer.  People feel that their masculinity is threatened and think that they need to save face and so escalate something idiotic into something tragic.  I could never understand that mentality.


I completely agree with this post but I do understand the face saving mentality or at least one subset of it. I grew up in a violent time and place when there was a major power shift taking place between various gang/organized crime elements in the region. I was lucky enough to be leaving high school just as this was heating up. I was never directly part of that scene but I knew people who were and I went to parties and things that had some or a lot of that element and it was prevalent enough that you were likely to have some exposure unless you were pretty sheltered. 

If you let yourself get stepped on in that environment lots of people were going to try to step on you to elevate themselves. If you didn't want to be everyone's (following terms of service) doormat you couldn't let anyone treat you that way or at least not just anyone. This was so common that it became pervasive in a large subset of the culture, criminal or not, and I really feel it is a form of trauma induced mental illness. I learned how to navigate it without having to give out or take regular beat downs and then I got smart enough to move but a lot of people didn't. I've seen people who weren't really bad guys, just trapped in this mentality and unable to escape, destroy their lives over minor or imagined slights because they'd so internalized the fear of being disrespected. Police: "Why'd you hit that guy 36 times with that framing hammer?" - "He was mad doggin' me and I don't take that from no one!"

It's a strange thing and it's hard to shake. Even though I've always thought of myself as a nice guy who had this sort of thing all figured out and knew how to avoid trouble I still had to process through it in my early 20's and learn how to let that sort of thing go. I had a huge culture shock when I relocated to a new city that didn't have these sorts of problems. I remember going out to a club to see a band when I first moved to Seattle and these guys kept bumping into me. The guy who drove us there was off somewhere else, in the toilet or at the bar and I didn't know anyone and they just kept bumping into me and not apologizing or acknowledging their mistake. I had no way to get home and I didn't know anyone and I remember just getting spun up and irrational, thinking man! these guys are testing me and I'm gonna get worked over if I don't do something! I was trying to figure out whether to preemptively just lay into the next guy to bump me or to figure out how to leave and take a bus when I realized that these guys were just drunk and happy and stupid and that the idea of violence was so far from their minds and foreign to them that they had no idea what they were signalling in another culture. It really spun my head and I realized that I'd brought a lot more baggage with me than I'd thought.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 2, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> I completely agree with this post but I do understand the face saving mentality or at least one subset of it. I grew up in a violent time and place when there was a major power shift taking place between various gang/organized crime elements in the region. I was lucky enough to be leaving high school just as this was heating up. I was never directly part of that scene but I knew people who were and I went to parties and things that had some or a lot of that element and it was prevalent enough that you were likely to have some exposure unless you were pretty sheltered.
> 
> If you let yourself get stepped on in that environment lots of people were going to try to step on you to elevate themselves. If you didn't want to be everyone's (following terms of service) doormat you couldn't let anyone treat you that way or at least not just anyone. This was so common that it became pervasive in a large subset of the culture, criminal or not, and I really feel it is a form of trauma induced mental illness. I learned how to navigate it without having to give out or take regular beat downs and then I got smart enough to move but a lot of people didn't. I've seen people who weren't really bad guys, just trapped in this mentality and unable to escape, destroy their lives over minor or imagined slights because they'd so internalized the fear of being disrespected. Police: "Why'd you hit that guy 36 times with that framing hammer?" - "He was mad doggin' me and I don't take that from no one!"
> 
> It's a strange thing and it's hard to shake. Even though I've always thought of myself as a nice guy who had this sort of thing all figured out and knew how to avoid trouble I still had to process through it in my early 20's and learn how to let that sort of thing go. I had a huge culture shock when I relocated to a new city that didn't have these sorts of problems. I remember going out to a club to see a band when I first moved to Seattle and these guys kept bumping into me. The guy who drove us there was off somewhere else, in the toilet or at the bar and I didn't know anyone and they just kept bumping into me and not apologizing or acknowledging their mistake. I had no way to get home and I didn't know anyone and I remember just getting spun up and irrational, thinking man! these guys are testing me and I'm gonna get worked over if I don't do something! I was trying to figure out whether to preemptively just lay into the next guy to bump me or to figure out how to leave and take a bus when I realized that these guys were just drunk and happy and stupid and that the idea of violence was so far from their minds and foreign to them that they had no idea what they were signalling in another culture. It really spun my head and I realized that I'd brought a lot more baggage with me than I'd thought.


Very interesting, and astute observations.  I think you might have hit the bull’s eye when you called it a cultural, trauma-induced mental illness.  I don’t think it creates a caveate for my previous comment, so much as it illustrates the destructive extreme to which this mentality can be taken. It really shows how we need societal ills to change or whole communities can go down a destructive path.  In some ways this is probably a relevant warning to our current situation with a population that is highly polarized politically.  

I’m glad you had the insight to recognize it for what it was, and to get out.  You could easily have been a casualty.


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## CB Jones (Jul 3, 2021)

Anarax said:


> Joe Schiling video down below. What are your thoughts? Do you think it was justified or not? Schiling claimed he was in fear for his life and acted in self defense.


No doubt....that is a battery committed on the drunk guy.

Both are idiots and in a just world.  MMA guy would have to let someone knock him cold and just call it even.


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## drop bear (Jul 3, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> I completely agree with this post but I do understand the face saving mentality or at least one subset of it. I grew up in a violent time and place when there was a major power shift taking place between various gang/organized crime elements in the region. I was lucky enough to be leaving high school just as this was heating up. I was never directly part of that scene but I knew people who were and I went to parties and things that had some or a lot of that element and it was prevalent enough that you were likely to have some exposure unless you were pretty sheltered.
> 
> If you let yourself get stepped on in that environment lots of people were going to try to step on you to elevate themselves. If you didn't want to be everyone's (following terms of service) doormat you couldn't let anyone treat you that way or at least not just anyone. This was so common that it became pervasive in a large subset of the culture, criminal or not, and I really feel it is a form of trauma induced mental illness. I learned how to navigate it without having to give out or take regular beat downs and then I got smart enough to move but a lot of people didn't. I've seen people who weren't really bad guys, just trapped in this mentality and unable to escape, destroy their lives over minor or imagined slights because they'd so internalized the fear of being disrespected. Police: "Why'd you hit that guy 36 times with that framing hammer?" - "He was mad doggin' me and I don't take that from no one!"
> 
> It's a strange thing and it's hard to shake. Even though I've always thought of myself as a nice guy who had this sort of thing all figured out and knew how to avoid trouble I still had to process through it in my early 20's and learn how to let that sort of thing go. I had a huge culture shock when I relocated to a new city that didn't have these sorts of problems. I remember going out to a club to see a band when I first moved to Seattle and these guys kept bumping into me. The guy who drove us there was off somewhere else, in the toilet or at the bar and I didn't know anyone and they just kept bumping into me and not apologizing or acknowledging their mistake. I had no way to get home and I didn't know anyone and I remember just getting spun up and irrational, thinking man! these guys are testing me and I'm gonna get worked over if I don't do something! I was trying to figure out whether to preemptively just lay into the next guy to bump me or to figure out how to leave and take a bus when I realized that these guys were just drunk and happy and stupid and that the idea of violence was so far from their minds and foreign to them that they had no idea what they were signalling in another culture. It really spun my head and I realized that I'd brought a lot more baggage with me than I'd thought.



Yeah. There is a line between protecting yourself and becoming the predator that doesn't strictly adhere to self defence.

So I think Joe shilling was in the wrong. But a similar situation pizza slap guy was justified.

Neither was self defence.


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## Anarax (Jul 4, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> No doubt....that is a battery committed on the drunk guy.
> 
> Both are idiots and in a just world.  MMA guy would have to let someone knock him cold and just call it even.


Don't worry, Joe has been knocked out before in spectacular fashion


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## punisher73 (Jul 5, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't buy his claim that he feared for his life, but I also don't think that you have to fear for your life to defend yourself. The clown acted like he was going to punch, and got decked for it. There is no requirement (that I am aware of) to actually be hit before your defend yourself.



Yes and No, you have to articulate somehow that an assault was imminent to claim self defense, but you are right that the other person doesn't actually have to throw a punch before you can defend yourself.  Many states also have some type of language that if it is safe to leave, you must attempt to do so.

Just looking at the clip.  They bump each other and instead of just moving on or addressing it in some lesser manner to de-escalate he moves back into the guy's face/space.  At this point, there is NO claim to self-defense since you are a willing participant (playing devil's advocate from a prosecution standpoint) by getting into his personal space and not attempting to leave or calm the situation.  

He admitted that the guy was causing issues in the establishment, this was a case of him looking for an excuse to pound the guy and he found one.  Self-defenese had nothing to do with it and neither did any type of "fear".


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 5, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> Yes and No, you have to articulate somehow that an assault was imminent to claim self defense, but you are right that the other person doesn't actually have to throw a punch before you can defend yourself.  Many states also have some type of language that if it is safe to leave, you must attempt to do so.


"I thought he was going to hit me, so I hit him back first."
I'm not a lawyer, but that would work for me, and with the flexing the smaller guy was doing I think it's plausible.


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## chrstnkenpoist (Jul 6, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> It is hard to say what the bar patron could have done to cause the MMA guy to 'defend himself', but from what can be seen, it looks a lot more like aggravated assault than self-defense. I'm not a cop or an attorney, that's simply my opinion.


I agree with Mr. Mattocks. Short of the guy threatening him with a knife or pulling at his shirt or waistband as if to pull a gun. I don’t see a self defense claim standing.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 6, 2021)

chrstnkenpoist said:


> I agree with Mr. Mattocks. Short of the guy threatening him with a knife or pulling at his shirt or waistband as if to pull a gun. I don’t see a self defense claim standing.


Self defense doesn't take into account if a person is a professional fighter.  It just wants to know if you were attacked or thought you were going to be attacked based on another person's actions. Would a resonable person have the same response or assumption that they were about to be attacked.

How would a reasonable person respond to a drunk who does an aggressive move.


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## John dye (Jul 6, 2021)

Anarax said:


> Joe Schiling video down below. What are your thoughts? Do you think it was justified or not? Schiling claimed he was in fear for his life and acted in self defense.


you can tell who has really been in a fight. Grew up on the street been in barfights or is a alpha just by the comments - Rules of the street don' t f with anyone mind your own buisness. Street is anywhere outside a ring. Not everyone is politicaly correct. Some of us were raised to be fighters and warriors. Watch who you provoke .


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 6, 2021)

John dye said:


> you can tell who has really been in a fight. Grew up on the street been in barfights or is a alpha just by the comments - Rules of the street don' t f with anyone mind your own buisness. Street is anywhere outside a ring. Not everyone is politicaly correct. Some of us were raised to be fighters and warriors. Watch who you provoke .


Alpha? Really??


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## Steve (Jul 6, 2021)

Do you guys think the situation would read differently if the MMA fighter was smaller and/or female?


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## geezer (Jul 6, 2021)

Steve said:


> Do you guys think the situation would read differently if the MMA fighter was smaller and/or female?


Yep. I would read it differently. If a small female fighter punched out an obnoxious guy who "flinched" at her, I'd be sharing the video with everybody.   

OK, maybe it's a little bit sexist and uncool, but that's my honest response. Besides, women put up with a lot of aggressive crap from guys all the time and most of them have to just put up with it. A little payback doesn't seem out of line to me!


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## geezer (Jul 6, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Alpha? Really??


Alph-alfa maybe?


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## Diagen (Jul 7, 2021)

This is an ego knockout plain and simple. Smaller guy a goof. Bigger guy mad.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> Do you guys think the situation would read differently if the MMA fighter was smaller and/or female?


Could be. If the drunk guy was bigger, the threat could seem more real. And I think a lot of us would read the threat differentlly if a man were acting that way toward a woman. Men don't typically "monkey dance" with women to show they are tough. It'd take a few more cues changing, too, though. The bumping into and turning back at the guy (again, without the context of whatever came prior) just looks aggressive, no matter who we drop in.


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## drop bear (Jul 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> Do you guys think the situation would read differently if the MMA fighter was smaller and/or female?











						Texas security guard unleashes martial arts moves in restaurant brawl
					

A Texas security guard is going viral after being caught on camera unleashing a series of martial arts moves against a man and a woman at a Mexican restaurant in Dallas.




					nypost.com


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## Anarax (Jul 7, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Texas security guard unleashes martial arts moves in restaurant brawl
> 
> 
> A Texas security guard is going viral after being caught on camera unleashing a series of martial arts moves against a man and a woman at a Mexican restaurant in Dallas.
> ...


"A man can't stand, he can't fight. A man can't breath, he can't fight. A man can't see, he can't fight."


----------



## Steve (Jul 7, 2021)

geezer said:


> Yep. I would read it differently. If a small female fighter punched out an obnoxious guy who "flinched" at her, I'd be sharing the video with everybody.
> 
> OK, maybe it's a little bit sexist and uncool, but that's my honest response. Besides, women put up with a lot of aggressive crap from guys all the time and most of them have to just put up with it. A little payback doesn't seem out of line to me!


Me too.  That's why I asked.  I'm just wondering how much of the analysis on this is subjective, based on the the fact that the MMA guy was bigger.


----------



## geezer (Jul 7, 2021)

Anarax said:


> "A man can't stand, he can't fight. A man can't breath, he can't fight. A man can't see, he can't fight."


Hmmm.... Can't _stand,_ can't _breath_, can't _see_....

...OK, how about brawling in a _dark swimming pool at night, in the deep end. _Like violent water polo with the lights out. 

Actually, now that I stop to think, _been there, done that._ 

In my defense I was young and drunk, fighting with my big brother. He was winning (no surprise, he was a champion wrestler in high school). So I just went straight to the bottom and grabbed onto these plastic cleaning hoses that were attached to the walls of the pool, and held my breath till he let go to go up for air. Then I swam to the other side got, out and _escaped!_

He was a great wrestler, but _I could hold my breath_ for a long time back then! 

You know, I wasn't such a good wrestler either, and now that I think of it, I used a similar strategy on the mat. If I was underneath and getting gassed, I was really good at working my way off the edge of the mat ....then getting a reset for a second chance. My standups, sit-outs, power-switches and rolls were _fast!_ Don't know if the rules still work that way in the modern world. This was in the late 60's doing what they now call folkstyle. "Freestyle" wasn't even a thing in high school back then.

Anyway, my self defense strategy is still awareness, avoidence, de-escalation ...and finally...when you screw up and get into a "situation" you can't handle (usually through your own ego) _...escape, escape, escape! _


----------



## Buka (Jul 7, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Texas security guard unleashes martial arts moves in restaurant brawl
> 
> 
> A Texas security guard is going viral after being caught on camera unleashing a series of martial arts moves against a man and a woman at a Mexican restaurant in Dallas.
> ...


That security person was a female, yes?

And that was nice to watch.


----------



## Steve (Jul 7, 2021)

geezer said:


> Hmmm.... Can't _stand,_ can't _breath_, can't _see_....
> 
> ...OK, how about brawling in a _dark swimming pool at night, in the deep end. _Like violent water polo with the lights out.
> 
> ...



It's still pretty much the same, I think.  I will say if you're standups, sit outs, power switches and rolls were on point, you were probably a better wrestler than you give yourself credit for.

I, on the other hand, was truly a mediocre wrestler. 



geezer said:


> Anyway, my self defense strategy is still awareness, avoidence, de-escalation ...and finally...when you screw up and get into a "situation" you can't handle (usually through your own ego) _...escape, escape, escape! _



One thing comes to mind, though.  You and I, and I suspect most others on this forum, would never find ourselves in either role of that video in the OP.  While I certainly would be the MMA guy who just decks a foolish drunk, I can't imagine ever being the foolish drunk, either.


----------



## Anarax (Jul 7, 2021)

geezer said:


> Hmmm.... Can't _stand,_ can't _breath_, can't _see_....
> 
> ...OK, how about brawling in a _dark swimming pool at night, in the deep end. _Like violent water polo with the lights out.
> 
> ...


I appreciate you sharing your experience, I'll have to try that pool technique sometime. However, my quote was from Terry Silver from Karate Kid III.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Most people know the deal. People in their 40's and and over couldn't get away with this stuff as a kid. Or maybe it was just in my home lol.


They arent doing it right, you dont square up to them, you just pop your arm out and stop before it hits them. 

Also, do any of these videos contain the actual scene without a age restriction on youtube?   Cant access it if its age restricted


Just found it in your previous post,   yeah its a duious claim at that.  All he did was square up, a push or a single punch maybe but that ehaviour isnt unknown of.   If they claimed "was going to headbutt me" anyway. 

Seems pretty common for people in disputes to do that, either intetionally or not.


----------



## Steve (Jul 8, 2021)

Steve said:


> One thing comes to mind, though.  You and I, and I suspect most others on this forum, would never find ourselves in either role of that video in the OP.  While I certainly would be the MMA guy who just decks a foolish drunk, I can't imagine ever being the foolish drunk, either.


This was supposed to read, "While I certainly would _never_ be the guy who just decks a foolish drunk..."  I missed an important word in there.  Point is, I don't think many people who post regularly here get into a lot of bar fights.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2021)

Steve said:


> This was supposed to read, "While I certainly would _never_ be the guy who just decks a foolish drunk..."  I missed an important word in there.  Point is, I don't think many people who post regularly here get into a lot of bar fights.


While I knew what you meant, I had more fun reading it the way you actually wrote it.


----------



## John dye (Jul 10, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Alpha? Really??


Yes alpha some people just born to be


----------



## John dye (Jul 10, 2021)

Steve said:


> This was supposed to read, "While I certainly would _never_ be the guy who just decks a foolish drunk..."  I missed an important word in there.  Point is, I don't think many people who post regularly here get into a lot of bar fights.


I dont think most people can defend themselves or home - real world. No choice. From riding a bus or even work. Or having a beer or doing karokee. You have no real opinion if you have not experienced something its just talk.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 11, 2021)

John dye said:


> Yes alpha some people just born to be



I fully support those people who choose to identify as something science doesn't actually support the existence of. 

Live your best life.


----------



## John dye (Jul 11, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I fully support those people who choose to identify as something science doesn't actually support the existence of.
> 
> Live your best life.


Science more then supports it they coined the term. Pack leader. Strongest and Smartest. Its a given. Most beta disagree.


----------



## John dye (Jul 11, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I fully support those people who choose to identify as something science doesn't actually support the existence of.
> 
> Live your best life.


An *alpha male* is a *man* who takes charge, one who imposes his will on others, not the other way round. Other men want to be him, women want to be with him. An *alpha male* intimidates, he's unquestionably in charge, no matter what the situation. An *alpha male* is loud, brash, doesn't care what anybody else thinks 

few scientists would want the knowledge they aren't Alpha. Science is theoretical not factual.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 11, 2021)

John dye said:


> An *alpha male* is a *man* who takes charge, one who imposes his will on others, not the other way round. Other men want to be him, women want to be with him. An *alpha male* intimidates, he's unquestionably in charge, no matter what the situation. An *alpha male* is loud, brash, doesn't care what anybody else thinks
> 
> few scientists would want the knowledge they aren't Alpha. Science is theoretical not factual.



Yeah. Because that doesn't sound made up at all. 

So silly question. If you are the best guy in the room. How exactly do you improve? 

Wouldn't you basically be stuck with guys who are essentially worse than you all the time. Which has to put blocks on you being able to reach you true potential.


----------



## Anarax (Jul 11, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Because that doesn't sound made up at all.
> 
> So silly question. If you are the best guy in the room. How exactly do you improve?
> 
> Wouldn't you basically be stuck with guys who are essentially worse than you all the time. Which has to put blocks on you being able to reach you true potential.


This reminds of an interview where Marc Denny, one of the Dog Brothers' founders, said how different people can be brave in different situations/environments. I posted the video below, he covers it in the first two minutes of the interview.


----------



## MrBigglesworth (Jul 12, 2021)

Not buying it.

Seen too many egomaniacs over the years engineer fights and then finish them.
Excuse at the ready, just in case.

Two things to note:

This guy is a professional fighter, so he's way better at the finishing bit.
He posted it on his own social media, so before everyone said "what the...?", he was actually proud of himself. In fear of his life?


----------



## MrBigglesworth (Jul 12, 2021)

John dye said:


> you can tell who has really been in a fight. Grew up on the street been in barfights or is a alpha just by the comments - Rules of the street don' t f with anyone mind your own buisness. Street is anywhere outside a ring. Not everyone is politicaly correct. Some of us were raised to be fighters and warriors. Watch who you provoke .



Thanks for that, Joe. 👍


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 12, 2021)

John dye said:


> An *alpha male* is a *man* who takes charge, one who imposes his will on others, not the other way round. Other men want to be him, women want to be with him. An *alpha male* intimidates, he's unquestionably in charge, no matter what the situation. An *alpha male* is loud, brash, doesn't care what anybody else thinks
> 
> few scientists would want the knowledge they aren't Alpha. Science is theoretical not factual.


Actually, what you're describing is commonly known by variations of the term "butthead".


----------



## Ivan (Jul 12, 2021)

Anarax said:


> Joe Schiling video down below. What are your thoughts? Do you think it was justified or not? Schiling claimed he was in fear for his life and acted in self defense.


I’ve said this before. The guy has issues. You can clearly tell he is hoping for a trouble, just by the way he walks. He is praying for an excuse to pop off. To me it looks like an insecure man who revels in what he can do and looks for excuses to do it.


----------



## Steve (Jul 12, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, what you're describing is commonly known by variations of the term "butthead".


"butthead?"  That's the nicest version I can think of.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 13, 2021)

Steve said:


> "butthead?"  That's the nicest version I can think of.


Yeah, but then you start to run afoul of the TOS.


----------



## Steve (Jul 13, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yeah, but then you start to run afoul of the TOS.



Depends on who you are.


----------



## John dye (Jul 19, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, what you're describing is commonly known by variations of the term "butthead".


We call it coward who cannot fight. Needs to be behind the screen to talk smack so he doesnt get smacked youre the guy who gets k.o


----------



## John dye (Jul 19, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Because that doesn't sound made up at all.
> 
> So silly question. If you are the best guy in the room. How exactly do you improve?
> 
> Wouldn't you basically be stuck with guys who are essentially worse than you all the time. Which has to put blocks on you being able to reach you true potential.


What a coward and a moron never defended anything or anyone lol. Dead in the water.  I do not care if i win or lose lol og baby i fight for something you have no clue. Honor. And bieng a man win or lose- i wont be crying all of my friends i have fought first.  Fighting cars girls and good fun. Unlike you we are not cowards. Most of us built the world you condemn


----------



## drop bear (Jul 19, 2021)

John dye said:


> What a coward and a moron never defended anything or anyone lol. Dead in the water.  I do not care if i win or lose lol og baby i fight for something you have no clue. Honor. And bieng a man win or lose- i wont be crying all of my friends i have fought first.  Fighting cars girls and good fun. Unlike you we are not cowards. Most of us built the world you condemn



Have you considered becoming emotionally strong so you don't have to fight all the time? 

Then you wouldn't need to bolster yourself with all this alpha baloney and you could get on with your life.


----------



## John dye (Jul 20, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Have you considered becoming emotionally strong so you don't have to fight all the time?
> 
> Then you wouldn't need to bolster yourself with all this alpha baloney and you could get on with your life.


Lol smoke some more weed kiss your boyfriend. You wont get anywhere with that horse **** here. In the real world you work hard fight or die and be a junkie.  Grow up stop the drugs and wake up. You just saw the world on fire. Go pschyo them .


----------



## Cynik75 (Jul 20, 2021)

John dye said:


> Lol smoke some more weed kiss your boyfriend. You wont get anywhere with that horse **** here. In the real world you work hard fight or die and be a junkie.  Grow up stop the drugs and wake up. You just saw the world on fire. Go pschyo them .


Real badass madafaka. Full respect from da streetz. No need any brain, coz has muscles....
Or maybe just delusional teenager/incel/whatever?

BTW. Is there any psychiatrist on this forum?


----------



## drop bear (Jul 20, 2021)

John dye said:


> Lol smoke some more weed kiss your boyfriend. You wont get anywhere with that horse **** here. In the real world you work hard fight or die and be a junkie.  Grow up stop the drugs and wake up. You just saw the world on fire. Go pschyo them .



So that is an example of the alpha male women want and men want to be like?

Because that seems like a garbage deal to be honest.

There is some tech nerd out there growing up soft and not doing any of that. And has more money, prestige and tail than either of us could get.

That is the real alpha male. Not scumbags like us clawing and scratching our way through life. That is the man women want and men want to be like.

If they had any sense. Anyway.


----------



## John dye (Jul 20, 2021)

drop bear said:


> So that is an example of the alpha male women want and men want to be like?
> 
> Because that seems like a garbage deal to be honest.
> 
> ...


Still on the hippie marijuana. Kung fool crap lol. Get bent.


----------



## John dye (Jul 20, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Real badass madafaka. Full respect from da streetz. No need any brain, coz has muscles....
> Or maybe just delusional teenager/incel/whatever?
> 
> BTW. Is there any psychiatrist on this forum?


You need more Ebonics lessons. Cuz lol.  Keyboard cpwards???????


----------



## Buka (Jul 20, 2021)

John dye said:


> You need more Ebonics lessons. Cuz lol.  Keyboard cpwards???????


John, are you really sixty five years old?


----------



## drop bear (Jul 20, 2021)

John dye said:


> Still on the hippie marijuana. Kung fool crap lol. Get bent.



Is it difficult when you can't punch things that annoy you?

Because you definitely struggle with internet banter. 

Which is an interesting thing about how an alpha male really works. 

You can be alpha with your mates or whatever. But suddenly struggle when put in a new social situation. 

Like this one.

Which is the myth of the alpha male.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Jul 27, 2021)

Schilling needs to go to jail. That's F'ed up.  No way was that crap, Self Defense. 

edit: ok just watched the Lawyer's breakdown about the flexing for the right hand by the kid (that I didn't catch); so maybe, maybe not.


----------



## punisher73 (Aug 2, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Schilling needs to go to jail. That's F'ed up.  No way was that crap, Self Defense.
> 
> edit: ok just watched the Lawyer's breakdown about the flexing for the right hand by the kid (that I didn't catch); so maybe, maybe not.



Hindsight justification by the lawyer.  He had the chance to walk away and didn't.  ANY claim at self-defense disappeared right then because he wasn't in danger. Now, if he had attempted to walk away and the other guy pursued, or if he just turned around and the other guy came at him, those are different situations.  In this one, he provoked it.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 2, 2021)

Rat said:


> They arent doing it right, you dont square up to them, you just pop your arm out and stop before it hits them.
> 
> Also, do any of these videos contain the actual scene without a age restriction on youtube?   Cant access it if its age restricted
> 
> ...



Are you telling us that at worst you are a child, at best a teenager? Is this why you can't talk from experience......of anything?


----------



## Nuuli (Aug 2, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't buy his claim that he feared for his life, but I also don't think that you have to fear for your life to defend yourself. The clown acted like he was going to punch, and got decked for it. There is no requirement (that I am aware of) to actually be hit before your defend yourself.


Yeah, did he really fear for his life?... Right, more likely his lawyer advised him to say that. It meets the legal requirements for justifiable use of force. And yeah, the guy, Justin Balboa, did make that flinch. Also, apparently this guy is a tool... and Schilling was his karma. Login • Instagram


----------



## Nuuli (Aug 2, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> Hindsight justification by the lawyer.  He had the chance to walk away and didn't.  ANY claim at self-defense disappeared right then because he wasn't in danger. Now, if he had attempted to walk away and the other guy pursued, or if he just turned around and the other guy came at him, those are different situations.  In this one, he provoked it.


Isn't Florida one of the stand your ground states? Don't make a sudden move on anyone who has muscle memory to react in a physical way.


----------



## punisher73 (Aug 2, 2021)

Nuuli said:


> Isn't Florida one of the stand your ground states? Don't make a sudden move on anyone who has muscle memory to react in a physical way.


It is, but "Stand your ground" in Florida only applies to your residence and is about the use/threat of deadly force.  There are other qualifications, such as, you can't "stand your ground" if the other party is there legally (ie: lives there).  But, it also has this stipulation.  _"If the person using deadly force intentionally provoked the other party, or if the other party has already attempted to withdraw from the confrontation, the use of force is not justified under “stand your ground.”  _

So going back to this case, it wasn't a deadly force situation (contrary to his claim) and he provoked it, so he would not be able to claim it even if it did apply to a public place.


----------



## Anarax (Aug 5, 2021)

Joe briefly talks about the altercation at 6:10


----------



## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> Hindsight justification by the lawyer.  He had the chance to walk away and didn't.  ANY claim at self-defense disappeared right then because he wasn't in danger. Now, if he had attempted to walk away and the other guy pursued, or if he just turned around and the other guy came at him, those are different situations.  In this one, he provoked it.



No, because Shilling claimed that he was in danger when the other guy cocked his arm back to strike; not when he turned and came back towards that little guy. It's perfectly legal to do that.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> It is, but "Stand your ground" in Florida only applies to your residence and is about the use/threat of deadly force.  There are other qualifications, such as, you can't "stand your ground" if the other party is there legally (ie: lives there).  But, it also has this stipulation.  _"If the person using deadly force intentionally provoked the other party, or if the other party has already attempted to withdraw from the confrontation, the use of force is not justified under “stand your ground.”  _
> 
> So going back to this case, it wasn't a deadly force situation (contrary to his claim) and he provoked it, so he would not be able to claim it even if it did apply to a public place.



A single punch can kill. When the arm was cocked back to show intentions that a punch was about to be thrown; that can be construed as "deadly force". 

Shilling met such force with the same type of force, punch for punch; making it more reasonable in court. This should be legal even in Liberal states where it's "Duty to Retreat", as he was already in striking range/immediate danger.


----------



## Steve (Aug 6, 2021)

Anarax said:


> Joe briefly talks about the altercation at 6:10


Huh.  So, no charges filed against him.  And apparently the other guy has a "track record" and "criminal history."  Is that actually true?  Joe Schilling says so and that "it's out there."


----------



## punisher73 (Aug 6, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> No, because Shilling claimed that he was in danger when the other guy cocked his arm back to strike; not when he turned and came back towards that little guy. It's perfectly legal to do that.



And the other guy can claim that he was scared because this big guy was coming at him as well.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 6, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> A single punch can kill. When the arm was cocked back to show intentions that a punch was about to be thrown; that can be construed as "deadly force".
> 
> Shilling met such force with the same type of force, punch for punch; making it more reasonable in court. This should be legal even in Liberal states where it's "Duty to Retreat", as he was already in striking range/immediate danger.



Yeah but you still have to convince a judge while a prosecutor twists everything you say. 

It is a screw around you don't need to deal with. Where for example if he had just slapped the guy he probably would have a lot more free time.


----------



## Steve (Aug 6, 2021)

Dude that got punched talking to (I think) cops and eventually a medic.  

A little more context in this article, including a description of the events leading up to it by Schilling.








						'I was scared for my life': What we know about Joe Schilling's viral barroom knockout
					

Ex-Bellator fighter Joe Schilling insists he acted in self-defense, but the alleged victim’s attorney calls the incident “uncalled for.”




					mmajunkie.usatoday.com
				




It also seems like no criminal charges are being filed, though Balboa has filed a lawsuit against Schilling for somewhere around $30k.  That seems... interesting to me.  Justin Balboa sues Joe Schilling for more than $30,000 following viral bar knockout


----------



## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but you still have to convince a judge while a prosecutor twists everything you say.
> 
> It is a screw around you don't need to deal with. Where for example if he had just slapped the guy he probably would have a lot more free time.



Of course, b/c that's just hindsight.

He's already in deep poop, so that was smart to claim that he was fearing for his life and go from there.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

Steve said:


>




Doh, he admitted to......"I boxed for...13 years, man".... case dismissed.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 6, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Of course, b/c that's just hindsight.
> 
> He's already in deep poop, so that was smart to claim that he was fearing for his life and go from there.



Yeah. That is standard practice. I have a police statement coming up and I will be fearing for my life. 

Because that is basically one of two reasons you can act.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> And the other guy can claim that he was scared because this big guy was coming at him as well.



He's in a publicly accessible place for social gathering so it's not unusual for someone to approach him. There's no real, legal indication of Schilling staging an attack with his hands both down; when it comes to what's *usually accepted in court. While cocking the hand back like that, is virtually an attack (and not just staging, ie. getting in stance, hands up, etc.).


----------



## drop bear (Aug 6, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> He's in a publicly accessible place for social gathering so it's not unusual for someone to approach him. There's no real, legal indication of Schilling staging an attack with his hands both down; when it comes to what's *usually accepted in court. While cocking the hand back like that, is virtually an attack (and not just staging, ie. getting in stance, hands up, etc.).



Defensive stance because he was afraid for his life.

It can go both ways

I am a hands up self defensive fighter. I have just been caught too many times to half *** it.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Defensive stance because he was afraid for his life.
> 
> It can go both ways
> 
> I am a hands up self defensive fighter. I have just been caught too many times to half *** it.



who do you mean was taking a defensive stance?

And we all know that both of them were trouble makers, ready to bang. Just formalities for the court.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 6, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> who do you mean was taking a defensive stance?
> 
> And we all know that both of them were trouble makers, ready to bang. Just formalities for the court.



The other guy could argue that as much a Joe could argue he was defending himself. 

And yes they both just wanted to fight.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The other guy could argue that as much a Joe could argue he was defending himself.
> 
> And yes they both just wanted to fight.



I'm just saying that in court, Joe's hands down would show him being less of a threat, as it's perfectly legal to turn around and walk up to someone in a place of social gatherings to have words.

Hands up, ie. a high guard, would indicate, "I want to fight".

Hand cocked back = an attack. 

So I predict, "case dismissed".


----------



## drop bear (Aug 6, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> I'm just saying that in court, Joe's hands down would show him being less of a threat, as it's perfectly legal to turn around and walk up to someone in a place of social gatherings to have words.
> 
> Hands up, ie. a high guard, would indicate, "I want to fight".
> 
> ...



You can't walk up to someone and cause them fear. That is assult.

Even to have words.


----------



## Steve (Aug 6, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> I'm just saying that in court, Joe's hands down would show him being less of a threat, as it's perfectly legal to turn around and walk up to someone in a place of social gatherings to have words.
> 
> Hands up, ie. a high guard, would indicate, "I want to fight".
> 
> ...


If Joe is to be believe, there is no case to dismiss.   He said no charges were filed. 

There is a civil lawsuit.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

Steve said:


> If Joe is to be believe, there is no case to dismiss.   He said no charges were filed.
> 
> There is a civil lawsuit.



Case dismissed in the civil lawsuit.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> You can't walk up to someone and cause them fear. That is assult.
> 
> Even to have words.



That would be hard to prove in court though, vs. the guy cocking back his arm (which means a punch is probably coming).


----------



## Steve (Aug 6, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Case dismissed in the civil lawsuit.


Maybe.  Civil cases have a lower burden of proof.  OJ Simpson was acquitted for murder in a criminal trial but found guilty for the same crime in a subsequent civil trial.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Aug 6, 2021)

Steve said:


> Maybe.  Civil cases have a lower burden of proof.  OJ Simpson was acquitted for murder in a criminal trial but found guilty for the same crime in a subsequent civil trial.



It's also going to cost him $10-20k in legal fees to defend and win that. Might be worth it for him to offer the guy $5k in cash to drop the case.


----------



## Steve (Aug 6, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> It's also going to cost him $10-20k in legal fees to defend and win that. Might be worth it for him to offer the guy $5k in cash to drop the case.


Maybe.


----------



## punisher73 (Aug 7, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> He's in a publicly accessible place for social gathering so it's not unusual for someone to approach him. There's no real, legal indication of Schilling staging an attack with his hands both down; when it comes to what's *usually accepted in court. While cocking the hand back like that, is virtually an attack (and not just staging, ie. getting in stance, hands up, etc.).


Ultimately, we can go back and forth and play lawyer vs. prosecutor on the facts of the case and how to interpret them.

Self-Defense is a legal concept (affirmative defense) that says your actions under normal circumstances would be considered criminal, but you had a reason for doing it that would make it ok.  The burden of proof is now on the defendant instead of the prosecutor to prove guilt. This is different and must be understood from the start.  

So if I was Schilling, I would try to take it to Jury trial and hope for a sympathetic jury (if the facts are on your side, ask for a bench trial, if they aren't ask for a jury trial...advice from many attorneys I've talked with).

If I was the Prosecutor for this case I would point out the following things:

1) Schilling is a trained professional fighter who does this for a living and also had many more options even if he did think he needed to defend himself.  There was not an equal amount of force used in the situation, it was excessive.  
2) Schilling admitted in his initial statement that he had a problem with the guy and didn't like him, so this was not a random encounter
3) Schilling was not in imminent danger, so the use of force wasn't justified.  Schilling chose to engage and put himself into harm's way and created the circumstances in which force was used.  Schilling was hoping for a fight and got one.  Self-defense is a situation in which one party does not want trouble but is forced to protect him/herself.  This incident involved two willing participants to the confrontation. I would link in "officer induced jeopardy" showing that even when LEO's create circumstances in which they are forced to use force due to their own actions, it nullifies whether the actual application of force was justified or not at the time of its application because they created the situation themselves.  Exactly as Schilling did, he created a scenario in which he wanted to use force and got it.
4) Since Schilling was a trained professional fighter, he was not in fear of his life.  In fact, the circumstances show otherwise.  If he was truly in fear for his life, he would have kept walking away and not crowd into the other person's personal space to confront him.
5) I would point out that Schilling's own statement contradicts itself that he was in fear for his life.  Schilling said that he was "in fear for his life and needed to defend it against the evil in the world".  No where did Schilling say that he was afraid of Balboa.

If I was Schilling's attorney I would point out the following things:

1) Balboa was highly intoxicated and making racial slurs towards people
2) Not on video, but I would claim that Balboa was drawing back a fist and Schilling reacted.
3) They bumped into each other and Balboa yelled "hey".  Schilling was just walking back to see what he wanted because it was so loud he couldn't really hear him.
4) If would TRY to bring in testimony that Balboa was a constant problem in the bar (this would probably work in a civil trial, but would not be admissible in a criminal matter because it would prejudice a jury).

Again, it would all come down to how the judge or jury interprets all of this together.  And we could debate which set better supports our own ideas of what happened.


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## jayoliver00 (Aug 7, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> 1) Schilling is a trained professional fighter who does this for a living and also had many more options even if he did think he needed to defend himself.  There was not an equal amount of force used in the situation, it was excessive. 3) Schilling was not in imminent danger, so the use of force wasn't justified.



Other guy admitted to the Cops that he had 13 years of Boxing and is well versed in fighting.

Schilling was in imminent danger when that guy's arm was cocked back; that's a punch that was about to be thrown.

It was an equal amount of force as it was a punch for a punch. Excessive would be if Schilling pulled out a gun and shot him or if he started stomping on his head after the 1 punch.




punisher73 said:


> Schilling chose to engage and put himself into harm's way and created the circumstances in which force was used.  Schilling was hoping for a fight and got one.  Self-defense is a situation in which one party does not want trouble but is forced to protect him/herself.



Walking up to someone in a bar to ask them what time it was or what's their problem, is not illegal. It's social gathering place. While cocking your hand back, is showing intent that you're about to attack. Just like if someone pulled a gun on me, I'm not going to wait for the bullet to be fired before doing something if I had options.


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## punisher73 (Aug 7, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Other guy admitted to the Cops that he had 13 years of Boxing and is well versed in fighting.
> 
> Schilling was in imminent danger when that guy's arm was cocked back; that's a punch that was about to be thrown.
> 
> ...


Again like I said in my previous post and presented both sides....Ultimately, we can go back and forth and play lawyer vs. prosecutor on the facts of the case and how to interpret them.

I'll ask this question of you and give an honest answer.  If someone showed you a video clip of a guy throwing BOTH his arms back behind him at the same time and sticking his head out, based on your experience as a male adult.  What would you say he was attempting to do?


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## jayoliver00 (Aug 7, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> Again like I said in my previous post and presented both sides....Ultimately, we can go back and forth and play lawyer vs. prosecutor on the facts of the case and how to interpret them.



I presented both sides also, again.  Ultimately, I can do it again.



punisher73 said:


> I'll ask this question of you and give an honest answer.  If someone showed you a video clip of a guy throwing BOTH his arms back behind him at the same time and sticking his head out, based on your experience as a male adult.  What would you say he was attempting to do?



 If someone showed you a video clip of a guy cocking his arm back as if  to throw a punch, based on your experience as a male adult; what would you say he was attempting to do?


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## jayoliver00 (Aug 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> Maybe.


 
Of course it's "maybe", on all of these comments.


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## Steve (Aug 7, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Of course it's "maybe", on all of these comments.


Not really.  I shared some facts and a few if/then statements.  Your response to the facts was a lot of speculation.


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## punisher73 (Aug 8, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> I presented both sides also, again.  Ultimately, I can do it again.
> 
> 
> 
> If someone showed you a video clip of a guy cocking his arm back as if  to throw a punch, based on your experience as a male adult; what would you say he was attempting to do?



So, no you won't answer the question.  Gotcha.

But, to answer your question....wait...let me give a little background.  I have worked in LE for over 24 years and have been a use of force instructor (def. tactics, knife, ground fighting) for about 20 years.  Part of my job as a supervisor and use of force instructor has been reviewing 100's of videos like this and making actual judgments on appropriate uses of force. 

If I saw a video as you described, my judgment would be that the person was attempting and preparing a punch.  Again, I have had many years of experience reviewing uses of force that this was the case.

In THIS video, if I was asked the same question,  I would not come to the same conclusion.  Body language and context support that Balboa was attempting to get a flinch response from Schilling.  There was no way that a reasonable person with the level of training that Schilling has would claim that their life was in danger.


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## jayoliver00 (Aug 8, 2021)

Steve said:


> Not really.  I shared some facts and a few if/then statements.  Your response to the facts was a lot of speculation.



I shared some facts also and just making arguments against yours; just as your speculating against my facts presented.


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## jayoliver00 (Aug 8, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> So, no you won't answer the question.  Gotcha.
> 
> But, to answer your question....wait...let me give a little background.  I have worked in LE for over 24 years and have been a use of force instructor (def. tactics, knife, ground fighting) for about 20 years.  Part of my job as a supervisor and use of force instructor has been reviewing 100's of videos like this and making actual judgments on appropriate uses of force.
> 
> ...



Your level of expertise should be in question then b/c Schilling is not being prosecuted, therefore the DA saw it differently. 

And you think that a landed punch can't possibly result in someone dying?


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## punisher73 (Aug 8, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Your level of expertise should be in question then b/c Schilling is not being prosecuted, therefore the DA saw it differently.
> 
> And you think that a landed punch can't possibly result in someone dying?



Balboa, at this point, hasn't filed a criminal complaint.  Originally Balboa told police that he didn't want to press charges just wanted it documented for a civil case (which has been filed).  Later, Balboa said he did want to press charges after watching the video.  He was told it was up to him to contact the State AG office to file.  I have not seen anything in the news that this has been done yet.  If he did file and the charges were denied, I would like to see that.

If this were to happen in our area. BOTH parties would have been charged because both were willing participants (our PA likes to use the term "mutual combat").  That means that Balboa isn't "innocent" for his part, but it also means that Schilling can't claim self-defense.  I have never stated that Balboa wasn't partly responsible.  I am only stating that what Schilling did wasn't self-defense.  Due to both parties actions, I would doubt that they would issue charges IMO.  But, it depends on the ruling of why they declined prosecution. 1) What Schilling did was self-defense or 2) It was mutual so both parties are responsible.

You won't comment on the ACTUAL video and statements that would be used as evidence in a case like this.  Schilling's actual words, "I turn around, and *he flexes on me*….bad decisions are made every day.  “The busboy and DJ came up to thank me. As you can see from this video, when *he flexed on me*, I was scared for my life and simply *defending myself against the evil in this world*.”  

Schilling's own statement has nothing to do with Balboa cocking back to punch him.  Schilling's own wording implies that they were both doing the "monkey dance" of two macho males and then throws in the phrase "scared for my life" to try and cover his actions.  

You keep coming back to hypotheticals like, "what would you think if a guy cocked his arm back to punch you".  But, that isn't on the video or in Schilling's statement.  You ask if I think that a landed punch can't result in someone dying".  Red Herring question that has nothing to do with this particular scenario because it didn't come into play.  You're interjecting things into the scenario that would justify the claim of self-defense that just aren't there.


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## jayoliver00 (Aug 10, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> Balboa, at this point, hasn't filed a criminal complaint.  Originally Balboa told police that he didn't want to press charges just wanted it documented for a civil case (which has been filed).  Later, Balboa said he did want to press charges after watching the video.  He was told it was up to him to contact the State AG office to file.  I have not seen anything in the news that this has been done yet.  If he did file and the charges were denied, I would like to see that.
> 
> If this were to happen in our area. BOTH parties would have been charged because both were willing participants (our PA likes to use the term "mutual combat").  That means that Balboa isn't "innocent" for his part, but it also means that Schilling can't claim self-defense.  I have never stated that Balboa wasn't partly responsible.  I am only stating that what Schilling did wasn't self-defense.  Due to both parties actions, I would doubt that they would issue charges IMO.  But, it depends on the ruling of why they declined prosecution. 1) What Schilling did was self-defense or 2) It was mutual so both parties are responsible.
> 
> ...



"Flexing" can be the same as "cocking his arm back to punch"; in this case, it's clearly the latter.

And how is it a red herring when Schilling claimed that he was "fearing for his life", from that cocked arm that was about to punch him?


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## punisher73 (Aug 11, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> "Flexing" can be the same as "cocking his arm back to punch"; in this case, it's clearly the latter.
> 
> And how is it a red herring when Schilling claimed that he was "fearing for his life", from that cocked arm that was about to punch him?


I have NEVER heard that "flexing" meant someone was cocking back their arm to punch.  I have spoken with many many people in a fight and not once had any of them ever used the term "flexing" to mean anything other than a reference to posturing.  All of them were quite clear that the other guy was getting ready to punch them and they struck first.

I even "googled" to see if there was a definition I wasn't aware of for "flexing" and Urban Dictionary even defines that " to flex" essentially has one of two meanings. It can mean to show off, to gloat, or to boast, which is the most popular definition of the word; however, it can also mean to put on a fake front, to fake it, or force it. The second definition is usually used in conjunction with the first — as in, someone who's gloating about something that they've really got no right to gloat about, lying about an accomplishment, or exaggerating the truth.

You asked if a landed punch could result in death.  That was the comment about you making a "red herring" argument.  Schilling never once articulated anything about Balboa getting ready to punch him.  It would have been quite easy for him if he really thought that and really though he was protecting himself.  Schilling was looking for an excuse to pop the guy and he did (side note:  not a discussion on whether or not Balboa got what he deserved, which I think he did with his background and other stuff).  Schilling is a prime example of someone thinking they know what the law is and throwing out the "I was in fear for my life" phrase with no articulable justification on "why".  

BUT, let's say I agree with you that Balboa was only drawing one arm back (which is contrary to the body posture of the video).  You would STILL need to articulate what you saw prior to your actions to show that they were reasonable.  Which Schilling didn't do.  Again, we circle back to self-defense is an AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE.  It means that you admit you broke the law.  It means you assaulted someone.  But, you have to say exactly why you did so and that by doing so it was reasonable.  Then a judge, jury or PA/DA looks at your reason(s) and determines whether it was justified and reasonable or not.


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