# about karate and shotokan



## Manny (Mar 23, 2012)

Here is the thing. I am a tkd black belt that currently teaches in my master dojang, the classes my master teach are kidie-sport oriented so I feel there is no room for an special class for men about the martla art-self defense of TKD, in fact the men's class is the one I teach and I have three +40 students. I am not content with the fact I am not learning seomething else and this siometimes makes me feel a little sad. I want to do corsstraining again, I am not leaving the tkd classes I teach but I want to do karate do because: a) I love the kata, b) I love the bunkai and c) I love th ipon kumite that's what I want to study.

The only style or Ryu of karate in my city is Shotokan, some friends told me Shotokan is a very sport oriented karate  and I will not gain a thing because is a little comparable with the TKD WTF style, I know a good  shotokane sensei and maybe will do karate with him one day per week cause I can not do more because of bussiness, family and tkd classes.

What can you tell abou the shotokan karate is it good? what can I get from practice it?

Manny


----------



## Grenadier (Mar 23, 2012)

Manny said:


> I want to do karate do because: a) I love the kata, b) I love the bunkai and c) I love th ipon kumite that's what I want to study.
> 
> The only style or Ryu of karate in my city is Shotokan, some friends told me Shotokan is a very sport oriented karate  and I will not gain a thing because is a little comparable with the TKD WTF style, I know a good  shotokane sensei and maybe will do karate with him one day per week cause I can not do more because of bussiness, family and tkd classes.
> 
> ...



You'll find quite a few similarities between Tae Kwon Do and Shotokan Karate, that both are striking, linear styles that emphasize the "hard" aspect over the "soft." 

As for sport Karate, it is true that Shotokan Karate is a very prominent factor in competition, that it's one of the four major systems, and that it has its own mandatory (shitei) kata at the national and world levels.  

However, to say that Shotokan Karate is sport Karate is simply not the case, since most people who train in Shotokan Karate aren't going to be competitors anyways.  

A good Shotokan school should emphasize the training of the fundamental techniques, constantly improving them, and as a result, your other areas, such as Kumite, Kata, etc., will all improve as a result.  If there's a good Shotokan school in your area, then by all means go for it.


----------



## clfsean (Mar 23, 2012)

Manny said:


> Here is the thing. I am a tkd black belt that currently teaches in my master dojang, the classes my master teach are kidie-sport oriented so I feel there is no room for an special class for men about the martla art-self defense of TKD, in fact the men's class is the one I teach and I have three +40 students. I am not content with the fact I am not learning seomething else and this siometimes makes me feel a little sad. I want to do corsstraining again, I am not leaving the tkd classes I teach but I want to do karate do because: a) I love the kata, b) I love the bunkai and c) I love th ipon kumite that's what I want to study.
> 
> The only style or Ryu of karate in my city is Shotokan, some friends told me Shotokan is a very sport oriented karate  and I will not gain a thing because is a little comparable with the TKD WTF style, I know a good  shotokane sensei and maybe will do karate with him one day per week cause I can not do more because of bussiness, family and tkd classes.
> 
> ...



You'll find it very similar to TKD.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 23, 2012)

Grenadier said:


> A good Shotokan school should emphasize the training of the fundamental techniques, constantly improving them, and as a result, your other areas, such as Kumite, Kata, etc., will all improve as a result.  If there's a good Shotokan school in your area, then by all means go for it.



I agree.  There is nothing wrong with the fundamentals of Shotokan that I can see that would make it less useful for any application.  We (Isshin-Ryu) may not do things the way Shotokan karateka do it, but I don't think the differences are big enough to worry about in a practical sense.  A good Shotokan karateka is a good karateka, period.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Mar 23, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I agree.  There is nothing wrong with the fundamentals of Shotokan that I can see that would make it less useful for any application.  We (Isshin-Ryu) may not do things the way Shotokan karateka do it, but I don't think the differences are big enough to worry about in a practical sense.  A good Shotokan karateka is a good karateka, period.



Yeah, what Bill said.


----------



## Manny (Mar 23, 2012)

My mastre emphatize the high kicking drills and WTF Sparring however the self defense thing is at the end of the list and I dislike this, I think I can find a nice dojo where the master focus in the techs that really works for self defense matters and that's what I am looking for. For example I like the karate kata much more that the TKD Taeguk Poomsae, I like the poomsae but think the karate katas are super we don't see any bunkai in the dojang of my master but the kind of bunkai I invented for my students but I am not learning something new.

Manny


----------



## Makalakumu (Mar 23, 2012)

Shotokan will actually help you understand more about TKD. The art grew out of Japanese karate. For an advanced practicioner, it's a good step IMO.

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk


----------



## rframe (Mar 23, 2012)

I have limited experience to share, but do practice Shotokan. As Gichin Funakoshi was a student of both Shorin-Ryu and Shorei-Ryu, you'll obviously see the influence.  Kicking is probably going to be more of a 'practical' focus compared to TKD, if that's the right word to use...?  Shotokan Kihon is pretty linear.

As a traditional art, form, discipline, and respect are heavily emphasized.

While most Shotokan competition would be considered "sport", kumite contact levels will vary a bit and I think that the emphasis on bunkai in kata really helps one think (and perhaps practice) a lot of "real world" application as opposed to just doing a martial arts dance.

I expect the degree of "liveness" you'll encounter (or whatever term you want to use for physical contact and lively sparring) will vary a lot with different schools.

I have assembled a Shotokan playlist of videos I've enjoyed on Youtube, you might want to take a look at:  http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL40431885EC80084D


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 23, 2012)

rframe said:


> While most Shotokan competition would be considered "sport", kumite contact levels will vary a bit and I think that the emphasis on bunkai in kata really helps one think (and perhaps practice) a lot of "real world" application as opposed to just doing a martial arts dance.



Although this is changing, I think it is still fair to state that good bunkai is not one of the stronger points of Shotokan karate in general, and I would not pick the art as an avenue for learning bunkai unless I had access to a sensei that specifically focuses on this aspect.

As Manny says he wants to practice kata, without a doubt he will get that opportunity in Shotokan with its strong lines and emphasis of chime.


----------



## chinto (Mar 23, 2012)

Shotokan is very linear compared to most Okinawan styles, but it is NOT strictly sport like some TKD schools teach.  A good Shotokan Dojo will ask you if you are looking for competition or self defense often.  Even if you are not asked there is no reason not to tell the instructor you are looking for Self Defense and not sport, and he/she should be able to help you with that easily.

I myself prefer the Okinawan styles, but I have seen many very formidable Shotakan Karateka as well.


----------



## Buka (Mar 23, 2012)

The Shotokan I know from around here (East Coast USA) is a hard hitting, hard fighting, straight line put a hole in you kind of style. I hated fighting Shotokan guys back in the day. Even if you beat them, you got your *** kicked. But I don't know if it's like that all over.

I think it will depend on the Dojo. I hope you find a great one.


----------



## chinto (Mar 24, 2012)

you get off line with circular movement and counter as they go by. till you learn to get out of the way, ya your going to get hammered. but, that is sparring. a real fight is different, and I know a couple shotokan fighters who would be very good in a real SD situation.  Personally I prefer the Okinawan styles for SD as they have not had the throws and brakes and locks de-emphisized or even   removed depending on the instructor. ( remember that hanshi Funikoshi did not teach normally the throws and locks  to help differentiate Karate from Jujitsu in Japan.)  but a good shotokan instructor will make sure you are competent in SD if you tell him that is what you are interested in training for.


----------



## Grenadier (Mar 24, 2012)

The other thing to consider is that when people compete in sport Karate, it's not the same thing as what is seen in Olympic style Tae Kwon Do.  

Most of the points that are scored are from punches, and sweeps / throws are quite common.  While sport kumite does place a strong emphasis on speed and explosiveness, you still have to maintain several categories in order to score, such as having sufficient power, focus, accuracy, vigor, etc.  Even if more points are awarded for kicks to the head, the majority of points given are still punches.


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh (Mar 26, 2012)

Manny, if you get into Shotokan and don't learn much bunkai from your instructor, you might want to check out Iain Abernethy's "Karate Grappling" for starters.  It is reasonably priced, and Abernethy seems to be using Shotokan katas for his bunkai.

Happy training!


----------



## OldKarateGuy (Apr 23, 2012)

As always, I'm a little late to the thread. Tournament sparring for Shotokan (JKA anyway) is generally like this: no padding or helmets, no shin guards or foot protectors. Gloves and a mouthpiece only (women can wear optional chest protector underneath uniform). The lack of safety gear and no Nerf fighters does encourage control and good defensive skills. There are very few restrictions in targeting and technique available for use. Only joint attacks and groin strikes are off limits. Sweeps, etc are OK. One may grab an opponent's arm or foot but may not hold it. As a result, big high kicks, spin kicks, etc, are a lot more liable to counter, and are not nearly as frequent as in Korean styles. Techniques must demonstrate an ability to extend and finish the strike for real, but hard contact will result in a DQ, so control is emphasized. If the opponent falls or is swept, the fight continues until a score. If the opponent can be turned to expose his/her back, a score will usually be ippon, or decisive. Limb strikes are allowed but generally do not score. 
I've been at lots of (non-shotokan) tournaments that restrict attacks to chest only, to front of body only, above the waist only, and so on. Others may weight the scores to artificially favor feet over hands. I have seen Korean styles which stop the fight (and reset) when someone hits the mat, so the winning tactic may be attack and immediately fall down to avoid a counter, or do a spinning back kick, and then retreat with back still facing the opponent to avoid a counter, etc. There really are not too many of these tricks in Shotokan tournament fighting. 
I agree with others that Shotokan generally emphasizes straight-ahead speed and power. However, I think Shotokan also rewards defensive skills, and most (many?) scores are probably from counters. 
I'm biased. I like Shotokan a lot. There may be a focus on tournament karate, but the point sparring generally is pretty realistic, and won't teach you too many bad habits for the day when you really need it. Like looking at any other style, the instructor may be the most important consideration. BTW, and only in my personal experience, Goju Ryu fighters match up extremely well against Shotokan guys. They were always the toughest for me personally at Open events.


----------



## SuperFLY (Apr 24, 2012)

all i can tell you is the shotokan i practice is definitely NOT a sport. there is no focus of going in for competitions, no belt farming, none of it.

there is a competition (kumite/kata/kihon) a couple of times a year we can enter if we want but its something that was mentioned offhand rather than a driving force behind the class. in fact, it wasnt even mentioned this year (ones held in march i seem to recall)

the people who practice do it for fitness and/or love of the art. for latter more than the former for me but essentially the same.

our chief instructor is quite traditional and drums in good technique and spirit. i get the distinct impression he'd be truly against any kind of 'point sparring'

our sparring never has any pads on, the more serious stuff (for grading) we normally put on light mitts and a gum shield (and a box if you like your jewels intact) but a half inch bit of foam isnt going to dull the blow that much if you make decent contact. tbf i think its more just to try to prevent hand injury than anything else. as my sensei would say 'if you get hit its your fault for not blocking it' so you'd better block it


----------



## chinto (Apr 24, 2012)

in the end it will depend a lot on the sensei and the dojo.  tell them you are looking for self defense and not sport and most Dojo's and Sensei's will be able to accommodate what you need I think.


----------



## Manny (Apr 26, 2012)

OldKarateGuy said:


> As always, I'm a little late to the thread. Tournament sparring for Shotokan (JKA anyway) is generally like this: no padding or helmets, no shin guards or foot protectors. Gloves and a mouthpiece only (women can wear optional chest protector underneath uniform). The lack of safety gear and no Nerf fighters does encourage control and good defensive skills. There are very few restrictions in targeting and technique available for use. Only joint attacks and groin strikes are off limits. Sweeps, etc are OK. One may grab an opponent's arm or foot but may not hold it. As a result, big high kicks, spin kicks, etc, are a lot more liable to counter, and are not nearly as frequent as in Korean styles. Techniques must demonstrate an ability to extend and finish the strike for real, but hard contact will result in a DQ, so control is emphasized. If the opponent falls or is swept, the fight continues until a score. If the opponent can be turned to expose his/her back, a score will usually be ippon, or decisive. Limb strikes are allowed but generally do not score.
> I've been at lots of (non-shotokan) tournaments that restrict attacks to chest only, to front of body only, above the waist only, and so on. Others may weight the scores to artificially favor feet over hands. I have seen Korean styles which stop the fight (and reset) when someone hits the mat, so the winning tactic may be attack and immediately fall down to avoid a counter, or do a spinning back kick, and then retreat with back still facing the opponent to avoid a counter, etc. There really are not too many of these tricks in Shotokan tournament fighting.
> I agree with others that Shotokan generally emphasizes straight-ahead speed and power. However, I think Shotokan also rewards defensive skills, and most (many?) scores are probably from counters.
> I'm biased. I like Shotokan a lot. There may be a focus on tournament karate, but the point sparring generally is pretty realistic, and won't teach you too many bad habits for the day when you really need it. Like looking at any other style, the instructor may be the most important consideration. BTW, and only in my personal experience, Goju Ryu fighters match up extremely well against Shotokan guys. They were always the toughest for me personally at Open events.



Thank you very much sir,  your reply was enligten to me about the way shotokan scores in a sport fight.

I am a 2nd degree black belt in TKD however when I sparr I tend to be like a karateka, why? because of age and size my fighting footwork is not as fancy as the one young competitor use these days, I am not as aerial like the tkdoings competing today (I do not compete BTW, I only do sparring at dojang) I like to use my hands when I am to close and my fovorite kicks are the roundhouse, the side kick, the spining back kick all aimed to the torso cause frankly high kicks take to much time to perform and when landed the other guy simply is not there, I am a straight/linear fighter when I do sparring at dojang.

What I like karate is that his format of doing kumite is  a little similar to the one I have adopted, offcourse my movements and displacements are not karate ones but I tend to rely more on power than in speed because at 44 years old and having some bacon you can see that speed it's no my thing.

The black Belt karate man (3) with whom I've trained a litte are very fast and acurated, one of them is a 4th dan sensei who has a lot of bagage  the other guys are his students.

I want to do learn something new, maybe do crosstraining maybe in karate or aikido I am still thinking abou it.

Manny


----------



## SPX (Aug 7, 2012)

rframe said:


> I have assembled a Shotokan playlist of videos I've enjoyed on Youtube, you might want to take a look at:  http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL40431885EC80084D



Very nice.  Thanks.


----------



## dancingalone (Aug 8, 2012)

Hi, SPX.  Been a while since I've seen you participate here.  How has the Wado training been?


----------



## kitkatninja (Aug 8, 2012)

OldKarateGuy said:


> As always, I'm a little late to the thread. Tournament sparring for Shotokan (JKA anyway) is generally like this: no padding or helmets, no shin guards or foot protectors. Gloves and a mouthpiece only (women can wear optional chest protector underneath uniform)...



We also get use a groin box too  

It's the same for a few non-JKA & ex-JKA associations competitions too.

However not all Shotokan/Shotokai schools/clubs/associations are the same.  Some are hard going, some aren't.  Some are sports orientated, some are not.  Some teach properly, and unfortunately there are some that teach a watered down version.  Visit the school in your area, you'll get a feel pretty soon.

However if you're looking at more bunkai for kata's, even though I love Shotokan karate (it's the first art I properly studied, it's my base art, plus I reached Shodan in it), you may want to check out Tang Soo Do first of all.  I've learnt more bunkai/applications from my current TSD school from the first few kata's than the Shotokan associations that I use to train with (I've trained with a JKA club, two associations whose head sensei's trained under Kanazawa Sensei's/SKIF and ex-JKA clubs).  I'm not saying that's better or worse, I'm just saying that it's different.  Plus also most of TSD's patterns are very similar to Shotokan's and you'll already know the language (Korean).


----------



## dancingalone (Aug 8, 2012)

I believe Old Guy does practice TSD currently if I recall some of his past posts correctly.  Great to hear that you're getting what you want out of TSD!


----------



## SPX (Aug 8, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Hi, SPX.  Been a while since I've seen you participate here.  How has the Wado training been?



How nice to be remembered.  I did enjoy posting here and talking to you guys.  And yeah, it's been a while mostly because I had to put everything on hold for a few months, and that included all MA training.  A friend of mine in San Diego was kind of having a hard time (depression and whatnot) and asked me if I wanted to come hang out with him for the summer.  I make my money by answering computer questions on the Internet and writing for magazines, so I'm not tied to a geographical location.  I told him sure and was down there from March to about the middle of July.

Now I'm back and trying to basically get my life going again.  Wado was cool, but to be honest, there was something about that place that wasn't clicking for me.  It wasn't the quality of instruction, which I thought was of a high level.  But for whatever reason I kind of just didn't feel like I fit in there.  I dunno.

I could go back.  But since I was only there for two months, I don't feel particularly obligated to.  As I hinted at in the other thread I created, I'm actually thinking of switching over to Shotokan.  It was the style of karate that I wanted to train in from the beginning, but I couldn't find a good local place so I'm at least going to go check out the SKA class that I've become aware of.

One thing I can tell you is that I'm ready to get settled.  I've done a fair amount of bouncing around from different styles and schools over the past few years looking for the right place.  It's time to find it and make a home.


----------



## OldKarateGuy (Aug 8, 2012)

Yep. I did - and loved - JKA shotokan, but I moved to a small town, and fell in with a TSD studio. TSD - my current association anyway - is very similar to shotokan in forms and technique, at least superficially. There are some basic differences. But in terms of point sparring, there is a pretty big separation between the two. I think, too, in the U S anyway, Tang Soo Do is becoming more Westernized (for lack of a better term). Because the larger shotokan groups remain based in Japan, or lead by Japanese instructors, the style tends to remain somewhat static. TSD (again, in the U S) is much more home grown instructors and associations, and is slowly changing (evolving?) into something perhaps more showy and less grounded in pure technique. Of course, individual studios and students vary hugely, and this is a generalization not necessarily true in many cases.  
My personal preference is still for shotokan, although that may be because as I age, I find shotokan much more suited to an older body, with limitations on movement, jumping, big kicks, etc. And, even though I harbor a personal bias that shotokan is more practical in real world application, we all should acknowledge that the superior athlete will excel in just about any style.


----------



## K-man (Aug 10, 2012)

Manny, if Shotokan is the only option, then go for it.  Potentially it could be just what you are looking for. If not, you don't have to stay.    :asian:


----------

