# Afghanistan's Tet?



## john2054 (Apr 15, 2012)

A series of attacks in the Afghan capital Kabul were in retaliation for Koran burnings, a US Marine urination video and the Kandahar massacre, the Taliban has reportedly claimed.:shock:


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 15, 2012)

john2054 said:


> A series of attacks in the Afghan capital Kabul were in retaliation for Koran burnings, a US Marine urination video and the Kandahar massacre, the Taliban has reportedly claimed.:shock:



What does that have to do with the Tet Offensive in Vietnam?  I guess I'm missing that part.


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## john2054 (Apr 15, 2012)

The Whole point Bill is that in the Tet, when the Allies had just about written them off as a dead dog, the Vietcong pounced back into action and, even if only for a limited time, showed that they were still a force to be reckoned with. If not a decisive military victory, this was at least a victory over the public's opinion of the war. And as history proves, there was no going back from there.

The same thing is happening here in Afghanistan. The Taliban, in killing that many more people again, and putting Karsai the coward into lockdown, has proved its resilliance to the foreign invaders yet again. I very much doubt there will be any turning back from here...http://uk.news.yahoo.com/kabul-under-attack-blasts-near-embassies-135958158.html


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 15, 2012)

john2054 said:


> The Whole point Bill is that in the Tet, when the Allies had just about written them off as a dead dog, the Vietcong pounced back into action and, even if only for a limited time, showed that they were still a force to be reckoned with. If not a decisive military victory, this was at least a victory over the public's opinion of the war. And as history proves, there was no going back from there.
> 
> The same thing is happening here in Afghanistan. The Taliban, in killing that many more people again, and putting Karsai the coward into lockdown, has proved its resilliance to the foreign invaders yet again. I very much doubt there will be any turning back from here...http://uk.news.yahoo.com/kabul-under-attack-blasts-near-embassies-135958158.html



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive

There are no parallels that I can see.  I also think your analysis of Tet is seriously skewed.

I'm also not interested in discussing how horrible the US is yet again.  If you do not like the US, do not live here.  Consider this conversation ended.


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## john2054 (Apr 15, 2012)

Please don't think that your reliance on wikipedia gives you any authority over the issue. That is as flawed a website as YOUR argument. And oh yeah, I never said I wanted to live in America, not that I would be allowed anyway!

To gain a proper understanding of the American war in Vietnam - why it was fought, why it was lost, and why it teaches us important lessons for the future - one must understand the Vietnamese people. from a review of the book on Amazon, for an insiders take on Vietnam.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vietnam-The...5804/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334505093&sr=8-1


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## Big Don (Apr 15, 2012)

The reason the Vietnam war played out the way it did was the inability of anyone in Washington D.C. to muster the cojones to fight to win. Sadly, this sounds familiar.


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## WC_lun (Apr 15, 2012)

A reliance on body count as a measuring stick for success did not help the US cause in Vietnam either.

I do not believe there is a close paralell between Tet and this recent wave of violence in Afganastan.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 16, 2012)

john2054 said:


> Please don't think that your reliance on wikipedia gives you any authority over the issue. That is as flawed a website as YOUR argument. And oh yeah, I never said I wanted to live in America, not that I would be allowed anyway!
> 
> To gain a proper understanding of the American war in Vietnam - why it was fought, why it was lost, and why it teaches us important lessons for the future - one must understand the Vietnamese people. from a review of the book on Amazon, for an insiders take on Vietnam.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vietnam-The...5804/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334505093&sr=8-1



One does indeed have to take wikipedia with a grain of salt.  Many things on wikipedia are well written and factual.  Others are biased in one way or another.

I have heard of the book you mention, however I have not read it.  But I am curious sir, what would prevent the writer of the book you mention from having biases as well, thereby invalidating what you have said?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 16, 2012)

john2054 said:


> The Whole point Bill is that in the Tet, when the Allies had just about written them off as a dead dog, the Vietcong pounced back into action and, even if only for a limited time, showed that they were still a force to be reckoned with.




When did the US or its allies write the Taliban off as a dead dog?


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## Carol (Apr 16, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> When did the US or its allies write the Taliban off as a dead dog?



The local transition is well underway, but I don't think the Taliban has been written off.  Negotiations with the Taliban were made to turn off cell service in certain districts before the evening call to prayer -- after Taliban insurgents kept blowing the towers up.  You can google Afghanistan cell towers blown up for more information and examples.

Violent behaviour tends to be lessened in the winter months.  Now that warmer weather is here, insurgent behaviour will be hotter as well.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 16, 2012)

Carol said:


> The local transition is well underway, but I don't think the Taliban has been written off.  Negotiations with the Taliban were made to turn off cell service in certain districts before the evening call to prayer -- after Taliban insurgents kept blowing the towers up.  You can google Afghanistan cell towers blown up for more information and examples.
> 
> Violent behaviour tends to be lessened in the winter months.  Now that warmer weather is here, insurgent behaviour will be hotter as well.




I did not think we had written off the Taliban as a dead dog, at least I had not seen or read it anywhere, and I was wondering where the OP got that and then used it to compare Afghan to Tet


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## john2054 (Apr 18, 2012)

Nice one oftheherd1. I'd just like to say that what the author of that book does is a historical account of factual events, drawing largely on facts from the ground, both in America (where he is based), and also taken from the general media sources. He writes in such a way that as not to impress upon the reader in any way shape or form his own opinions, just a portrayal of the facts as they stand. And this is to be commended.

Also to other posters, when I said we here in the west have written the taliban off as a dead dog, perhaps you should understand that I was speaking ideologically speaking and not just as an active political force. It is only natural as part of the process which enables an army to kill an enemy, it has to dehumanise them. but before we fall too far down that rabbit hole, id like you to remember that the very name and concept of the taliban itself is a force which has largely been invented by the west, much as a middle eastern bogey man which will steal your women away at night, and in this sense has taken root by elements that hate us so much that they want to be known as our enemies! In which case we have to ask why do they hate us so much, is this justified, and whatever the answer what are we going to do about it? And here i have to reiterate my place on the side of those against the war. There is a growing contingent of us now you know?


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2012)

John, your knowledge of the Taliban is flawed as is your perception of how we regard them, no one at all hads written them off, they are regarded as every as dangerous as they always have been.
Every sane person is against war, that includes the vast majority of service people btw. It's about time however you started looking at the situation through non biased eyes, I'm aware of your sympathy and support for the radical Muslims but that way of looking at things is as every bit skewed as that you accuse the supposedly 'pro' war posters here of.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 22, 2012)

john2054 said:


> Nice one oftheherd1. I'd just like to say that what the author of that book does is a historical account of factual events, drawing largely on facts from the ground, both in America (where he is based), and also taken from the general media sources. He writes in such a way that as not to impress upon the reader in any way shape or form his own opinions, just a portrayal of the facts as they stand. And this is to be commended.
> 
> Also to other posters, when I said we here in the west have written the taliban off as a dead dog, perhaps you should understand that I was speaking ideologically speaking and not just as an active political force. It is only natural as part of the process which enables an army to kill an enemy, it has to dehumanise them. but before we fall too far down that rabbit hole, id like you to remember that the very name and concept of the taliban itself is a force which has largely been invented by the west, much as a middle eastern bogey man which will steal your women away at night, and in this sense has taken root by elements that hate us so much that they want to be known as our enemies! In which case we have to ask why do they hate us so much, is this justified, and whatever the answer what are we going to do about it? And here i have to reiterate my place on the side of those against the war. There is a growing contingent of us now you know?



Nice one?  I'm not sure what that means.  But I think you have answered my question.  If he is taking everything from general media sources, that doesn't make him any more believable, nor any less biased.  There was a lot of media reporting.  Much of it was heavily biased for or against the war.  As time went by, more was against the war.  I think a lot was misinformed, but that is just my opinion, and my bias.  I doubt the author is reporting much that doesn't fit his bias.  And I really wonder how he can tell anyone so much about how the Vietnamese culture and thought processes worked it he was never there.


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## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2012)

john2054 said:


> A series of attacks in the Afghan capital Kabul were in retaliation for Koran burnings, a US Marine urination video and the Kandahar massacre, the Taliban has reportedly claimed.:shock:




The little emoticon was unnecessary don't you think?

'Retailitation' attakcs, more complicated than you think, as you yourself pointed out, there's a war on, the Taliban are pushing to find weaknesses in the Afghan forces, they don't want the Afghan government troops and police to be in control, the Allies do. The political arguments there are a different discussion. The Allies are leaving Afghanistan, hopefully by 2014, we hope we are leaving a stable 'democratic' government and security forces behind, at any rate it will be more democratic than the Taliban though not democratic as we either wish or want it to be. However the Taliban's interests aren't served by this unless they sit around the table and talk and are willing to go through the democratic process of actually getting voted in. The attacks, are expected and the Afghan security forces aren't doing too bad a job at repelling them, there's hope there at least.


Comparing Afghan and Vietnam is naive to say the least,different era's, different armies, different politicians and commanders. Different enemies even, the Taliban isn't the afghan army, it's an army of insurgents who kill and maim as many if not more of their own people than they do of the 'enemy' ie the Allies. the terrorise their own people, they blow up their own people and they don't want a democratically run country they want themselves to be in sole control. It's not even about religion because there's as many if not more devout Muslims are against the Taliban than are for it. It's about power and control, that's what the Taliban are fighting for, don't think for one minute they are seeking to 'free' their country from the invader, they are in fact seeking to replace the 'invaders' as the ones in control. It is a war but nothing like the Vietnam war at all. 


I understand that you have had a very one sided 'indoctrination' of the Afghan situation and see it in black and white but the fact is it's very much not as simple as you've been told. 


I was around in the time of Vietnam, doing a job in the military that meant I had a good knowledge of what was going on in most countries espeically those invovled in wars, I was in regular contact with counterparts on the American side. I was also very aware of the public's opinion of the Vietnam war. It seemed at the time, people were tired of the war and felt that American troops shouldn't be there, there was a lot of anti war demos etc but I don't remember the public perception being one of thinking the Viet Cong were defeated etc. It was all about bring the American troops home, no one actually was really thinking much about any Vietnamase army from either side, the public perception was that the troops should come home.

Incidents that happen in the Allied forces are dealt with severely if proved to be illegal and yes people are found guilty and are punished, we can't and don't hide the fact that some service people, just like their civilian counter arts who have criminal records for violence agianst women etc don't behave in the way they are supposed to so measures are taken to punish the guilty and to prevent incidents happening where possible. They do their best, compare this to the Taliban who blow up their own people deliberately, throw acid in school girls faces, stone women to death, torture and kill anyone they want without sanctions and then compare moral codes. John you have been indoctrinated and cannot see the wood for the trees anymore I'm, afraid. Seek out some opinions from those who don't seek to destroy but who can offer an opinion without trying to radicalise you even more.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 22, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> ...
> 
> *Comparing Afghan and Vietnam is naive to say the least,*different era's, different armies, different politicians and commanders. Different enemies even, the Taliban isn't the afghan army, *it's an army of insurgents who kill and maim as many if not more of their own people than they do of the 'enemy' ie the Allies. the terrorise their own people, they blow up their own people and they don't want a democratically run country they want themselves to be in sole control. *It's not even about religion because there's as many if not more devout Muslims are against the Taliban than are for it. It's about power and control, that's what the Taliban are fighting for, don't think for one minute they are seeking to 'free' their country from the invader, they are in fact seeking to replace the 'invaders' as the ones in control. It is a war but nothing like the Vietnam war at all.
> 
> ...



Maybe comparing Afganistan and Vietnam, and the VC/NVA and Taliban aren't so far off after all.


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## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Maybe comparing Afganistan and Vietnam, and the VC/NVA and Taliban aren't so far off after all.



Not really, for one thing the American army was a conscript one not a professional one. Things that happened in Vietnam were hidden or whitewashed, green on green. The Vietnamese weren't similiar at all to the Taliban, the political agenda was different, in fact everything *was* different. For one thing it's not the 'Americans' in Afghan, it's a NATO force plus some other countries. There is also an 'end' date.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 23, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Not really, for one thing the American army was a conscript one not a professional one. Things that happened in Vietnam were hidden or whitewashed, green on green. The Vietnamese weren't similiar at all to the Taliban, the political agenda was different, in fact everything *was* different. For one thing it's not the 'Americans' in Afghan, it's a NATO force plus some other countries. There is also an 'end' date.



First, I was talking about the similarities between the terrorist tactics of the VC/NVA and the taliban.  Insurgents need the support of the local population.  If they don't get the willing support, they will try and force support.  That is what occurred in Vietnam and is now occurring in Afganistan.  In that way they are similar.  The mechanics of fighting in different geography, and the differences in culture have nothing to do with the fact that a decision was made by the VC/NVA to force compliance by incredibly inhumane treatment of non-combatants.  I see nothing to tell me the taliban are not doing the same.

Second, to say things (implying all) were hidden or whitewashed is painting with a broad brush.  How do you know that all crimes were hidden or whitewashed?  And how is a conscripted army so much worse than a professional army?  

As to the political agenda, it seems the same to me.  Complete political (probably by standards in the Koran) control by the taliban, but regardless, complete control of the country and its inhabitants.  That was what the VC/NVA wanted, and ultimately gained.  The type of political system is not really important, as dictatorships all operate pretty much the same, whatever political "system" they choose to use as a cover.


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## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> First, I was talking about the similarities between the terrorist tactics of the VC/NVA and the taliban. Insurgents need the support of the local population. If they don't get the willing support, they will try and force support. That is what occurred in Vietnam and is now occurring in Afganistan. In that way they are similar. The mechanics of fighting in different geography, and the differences in culture have nothing to do with the fact that a decision was made by the VC/NVA to force compliance by incredibly inhumane treatment of non-combatants. I see nothing to tell me the taliban are not doing the same.
> 
> Second, to say things (implying all) were hidden or whitewashed is painting with a broad brush. How do you know that all crimes were hidden or whitewashed? And how is a conscripted army so much worse than a professional army?
> 
> ...




The Americans seem to have a fear of communism to such an extent that they will countenence and support dictatorships of all other kinds as long as they are anti communist. The communists in Vietnam were fighting against a dictatorship, it wasn't a democratice government they were trying to replace. Now whether you regard a communist government as a dictatorship or not the fact remains that America in Vietnam was not supporting a democratically elected government, it was trying to stop a communist one. Communism might not be your thing but if the people of a country wish to have a communist government it's no business of any other country, the sole purpose of America being in Vietnam was to stop the communists not to advance democracy or to rid the world of a terrorist organisation. 

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/wars_vietnam_1954_1968.html


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 23, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> The Americans seem to have a fear of communism to such an extent that they will countenence and support dictatorships of all other kinds as long as they are anti communist. The communists in Vietnam were fighting against a dictatorship, it wasn't a democratice government they were trying to replace. Now whether you regard a communist government as a dictatorship or not the fact remains that America in Vietnam was not supporting a democratically elected government, it was trying to stop a communist one. Communism might not be your thing but if the people of a country wish to have a communist government it's no business of any other country, the sole purpose of America being in Vietnam was to stop the communists not to advance democracy or to rid the world of a terrorist organisation.
> 
> http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/wars_vietnam_1954_1968.html



The French there first, we came second and if I remember correctly most of our advisors said we should not go there

And as a side note when you say "The Americans" you are pretty much saying every single person that lives within the country of America and in the mid-60s that was about 194,000,000 and today it is about 311,800,000. So do you honestly believe that Americans seem to have a fear of communism...all Americans?

Sorry, I realize you likely do not mean every single American but I have a REAL pet peeve about gross generalizations and I am kind of getting sick and tired of so many blaming "Americans" when in fact we have much less control over what those in charge do than most outside of the USA believe and many of those inside as well... and that has not changed for the better since the Mid 60s


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## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> The French there first, we came second and if I remember correctly most of our advisors said we should not go there
> 
> And as a side note when you say "The Americans" you are pretty much saying every single person that lives within the country of America and in the mid-60s that was about 194,000,000 and today it is about 311,800,000. So do you honestly believe that Americans seem to have a fear of communism...all Americans?
> 
> Sorry, I realize you likely do not mean every single American but I have a REAL pet peeve about gross generalizations and I am kind of getting sick and tired of so many blaming "Americans" when in fact we have much less control over what those in charge do than most outside of the USA believe and many of those inside as well... and that has not changed for the better since the Mid 60s



However, I have yet to meet, speak to or know of an American other than members of the American Communist party who will say anything good or even of a reasonable interest in the fact that communism and communists have anything to offer. I have never read an American write anything positive about communism...and I read extensively. I am not blaming 'Americans' for things I know they don't control, it's no different here, but on the subject of communists and communism I have yet to find an American who will not either condemn it or will consider it as something that some people actually want to have or to be. Are there Americans who will look at communism and communist politics without at the very least a jaundiced eyed?


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 23, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I think you are misunderstanding me here. A conscripted army isn't worse than a professional one but a conscripted soldier is less engaged in doing the job than a professional soldier who makes it their career for 20 odd years. A conscript is less well trained by the army simply because they don't consider it worth putting the time, energy and money into someone they know will only be in the army a couple of years. A professional soldier's training is going to be far more comprehensive. An army of consripts is a different animal to an army of professionals so please don't read into what I said something I didn't mean. Crimes were covered up in Vietnam, we know that's so because the information came out later, I assume too knowing human nature tha crimes will be covered up if possible by people in Afghanistan but the difference now is that commanders etc are far more aware of the consquences of not being honest and of the feeling that if something is wrong it's reported and dealt with properly.



Maybe I used a poor choice of words. I guess I should have asked why a conscripted army was less efficient than a profession army. Then your answer would fit.

Even so, I disagree. I don't recall the figures for training a soldier (or other service person) to get them through basic and advanced individual training, but it isn't cheap. Your argument that they are less well trained simply isn't true for the USA army. All members got the same training, because they were all expected to perform to a certain standard that made success as probably as possible, nor would have made economic sense. Also, imagine the outcry, at least in the USA over the fact that draftees had a recognizable percentage advantage of being killed over their enlistee brothers. 

I don't know about your country, but in the USA, all receive the same training based on demonstrated aptitude and time in service. Granted, the professional, with more time in service, will get more advanced training. But when you talk battlefield survival, all get the same basic and advanced training before going into battle. And I think it not hard to believe, that "professional" or conscript, at the battlefield level, both wish and demand the same skill sets in order to survive and keep their cohorts alive, and protecting them, in order for as many as possible to return home. I appreciate you clarification as to what you meant, but I just don't disagree for the US Army.

As to things being covered up: for sure things were covered up in Vietnam, and in subsequent wars. But do you think that only occurred in the US military? Do you think that all crimes were covered up until someone blew the whistle long after the fact? If you believe that, you are mistaken. I am not even comfortable with the fact that commanders "all" know that it is better to bring things to light as quickly as possible. There will always be some that will try to hide things for any number of reasons. I wish that were not so.




Tez3 said:


> The Americans seem to have a fear of communism to such an extent that they will countenence and support dictatorships of all other kinds as long as they are anti communist. The communists in Vietnam were fighting against a dictatorship, it wasn't a democratice government they were trying to replace. Now whether you regard a communist government as a dictatorship or not the fact remains that America in Vietnam was not supporting a democratically elected government, it was trying to stop a communist one. Communism might not be your thing but if the people of a country wish to have a communist government it's no business of any other country, the sole purpose of America being in Vietnam was to stop the communists not to advance democracy or to rid the world of a terrorist organisation.
> 
> http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/wars_vietnam_1954_1968.html



Every country picks and chooses its enemies, or vice-versa. It then decides how to defend against them. Does your country do any differently? And the point obviously is that sometimes we pick allies, and sometimes those allies are allies of convenience. I think your country has/does the same. So if we have decided that a communist country is not our friend, we may decide that an ally we need, even if not ordinarily someone we would support, we will do so to gain them as an ally. I don't think many countries do otherwise, including your own.

Was the south's government a dictatorship, yes. But you almost make it sound as if that made the communist's actions OK. Surely you didn't intend that did you? And surely you didn't wish to imply that the communists were not also dictators? So we chose a dictatorship that was willing to ally with us over one that wasn't. Your country has done the same, yes? And I don't know of any instances of people willingly and freely choosing a communist government, or at least wishing to keep it as soon as they realize the consequences. So I don't think I understand your point.

Perhaps you can enlighten me. Bear in mind, I understand my country is not perfect, but we try at least part of the time.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 23, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> However, I have yet to meet, speak to or know of an American other than members of the American Communist party who will say anything good or even of a reasonable interest in the fact that communism and communists have anything to offer. I have never read an American write anything positive about communism...and I read extensively. I am not blaming 'Americans' for things I know they don't control, it's no different here, but on the subject of communists and communism I have yet to find an American who will not either condemn it or will consider it as something that some people actually want to have or to be. Are there Americans who will look at communism and communist politics without at the very least a jaundiced eyed?



That is very likely true.  We tend to think that all communist governments are dictatorships.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 23, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> However, I have yet to meet, speak to or know of an American other than members of the American Communist party who will say anything good or even of a reasonable interest in the fact that communism and communists have anything to offer. I have never read an American write anything positive about communism...and I read extensively. I am not blaming 'Americans' for things I know they don't control, it's no different here, but on the subject of communists and communism I have yet to find an American who will not either condemn it or will consider it as something that some people actually want to have or to be. Are there Americans who will look at communism and communist politics without at the very least a jaundiced eyed?



Well of course all of the 311 million Americans judge Communism the exact same way, all of us tend to be rather power hungry, close minded and petty too. You see all Americans are made from the same cookie cutter, go to the same exact school and are all taught the same exact thing so we all think alike and if there are no foreigners around to see us we all dress alike too. 

I guess I am not in much of a mood today to be labeled or lumped into a generalization based on a couple books, but it has been my experience that people tend to look for and read things to support their beliefs. But more to the point; yes you have, not personally but electronically. You need to read more carefully. There are also a few professors in various universities throughout the USA that write about it and study it without a jaundiced eye.

I dont condemn communism any more than I condemn capitalism. I have seen with my own eyes people living happily in China with no desire to move and posted on MT a few years back that it was not evil like many were claiming in whatever post that was. Of course I was told I was flat wrong but then I had been there and they hadnt and what is is so I dod not much care. I have also said that there are no true Communist Governments on the planet there are countries ruled by a Communist Party but they are not exactly a Communist society.

With all that said, feel free to label any way you prefer, I am currently wondering why I got involved in this at all and basically no longer care


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 23, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> That is very likely true.  We tend to think that all communist governments are dictatorships.



 all that proves is that we don't understand what dictatorship means.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 23, 2012)

While we're talking about communists...

I just listened to former Soviet officer Oleg Novinkov give an interview on his experiences as an occupying soldier in Afghan.  It's fascinated how similar the Soviet propaganda and NATO propaganda was.  It's also fascinating how so many of the same things that happened to the Soviets are happening to the Western countries who invaded.  Take a listen, it's about a half an hour.

http://antiwar.com/radio/2012/04/22/oleg-novinkov/



> Oleg Novinkov, former Soviet officer and author of _Afghan Boomerang_, discusses the propaganda-filled book _Charlie Wilson&#8217;s War_  about the CIA operation to arm mujaheddin in their fight against the  Soviet army in Afghanistan; the Western media&#8217;s re-labeling of Afghan  &#8220;freedom fighters&#8221; as &#8220;terrorists&#8221; once the US invaded; why Afghans  would rather be occupied by the Soviets than the US/NATO; how a new Cold  War with China will eventually displace the War on Terror as the top US  priority; and why Gorbachev, Yeltsin, and perestroika are much more  respected in the West than in Russia.
> 
> Oleg Novinkov was a Soviet Air Force flight surgeon who was stationed in  Kabul, Ghazni, and Bagram while in Afghanistan during the Soviet-Afghan  War. After returning from the war, he became involved in supporting the  Soviet space program as a flight surgeon and medical researcher at the  Institute of Medical and Biological Problems. He subsequently emigrated  from Russia to the United States in 1995. Since then, he has worked in  various capacities as an international space medicine consultant in  support of NASA.



Maybe the current war in Afghanistan is just like every other war in Afghanistan?  Why compare it to Vietnam at all?


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## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Maybe I used a poor choice of words. I guess I should have asked why a conscripted army was less efficient than a profession army. Then your answer would fit.
> 
> Even so, I disagree. I don't recall the figures for training a soldier (or other service person) to get them through basic and advanced individual training, but it isn't cheap. Your argument that they are less well trained simply isn't true for the USA army. All members got the same training, because they were all expected to perform to a certain standard that made success as probably as possible, nor would have made economic sense. Also, imagine the outcry, at least in the USA over the fact that draftees had a recognizable percentage advantage of being killed over their enlistee brothers.
> 
> ...




Communism is not necessarily the worst thing in the world, there's plenty of countries that have worse political systems or none at all in places such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Syria, Iran etc etc. there's plenty of dictatorships where the rights of people are less than those in communist countries so holding communists as being the spawn of Satan is unrealistic. 
My country allies with countries that are friendly and/or can offer us something regardless of what their political system is, we are algined with some communist places and_, sadly to my mind as well as others_ also with countries where the human rights records are appalling such as Turkey. Our country looks for allies that can do us some good, communist, dictatorships or whatever it's a case of what's in it for us. We don't hold communism as being any worse than any other political system. We'll invade a place because it's in our interest too but not because it looked like it was going to turn communist. Korea taught us that, never again. We had whole regiments wiped out there.

The two 'sides' in Vietnam were as bad as each other though the non-communists may actually have the edge in the league table of human rights abuses and terror tactics as well as sleaze, no outside country should have been supporting either side though. Supporting an inhuman regime just because they _weren't_ communists is not a legitimate or moral reason.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 24, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Maybe I used a poor choice of words. I guess I should have asked why a conscripted army was less efficient than a profession army. Then your answer would fit.
> 
> Even so, I disagree. I don't recall the figures for training a soldier (or other service person) to get them through basic and advanced individual training, but it isn't cheap. Your argument that they are less well trained simply isn't true for the USA army. All members got the same training, because they were all expected to perform to a certain standard that made success as probably as possible, nor would have made economic sense. Also, imagine the outcry, at least in the USA over the fact that draftees had a recognizable percentage advantage of being killed over their enlistee brothers.
> 
> ...







Tez3 said:


> Communism is not necessarily the worst thing in the world, there's plenty of countries that have worse political systems or none at all in places such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Syria, Iran etc etc. there's plenty of dictatorships where the rights of people are less than those in communist countries so holding communists as being the spawn of Satan is unrealistic.



I don't recall speaking of them as spawn of Satan, but yes, we do tend to think of them as dictatorships that wish to subjegate the rest of the world.



Tez3 said:


> My country allies with countries that are friendly and/or can offer us something regardless of what their political system is, we are algined with some communist places and_, sadly to my mind as well as others_ also with countries where the human rights records are appalling such as Turkey. Our country looks for allies that can do us some good, communist, dictatorships or whatever it's a case of what's in it for us. We don't hold communism as being any worse than any other political system. We'll invade a place because it's in our interest too but not because it looked like it was going to turn communist. Korea taught us that, never again. We had whole regiments wiped out there.



Well, I guess we do the same given the chance.



Tez3 said:


> The two 'sides' in Vietnam were as bad as each other though the non-communists may actually have the edge in the league table of human rights abuses and terror tactics as well as sleaze, no outside country should have been supporting either side though. Supporting an inhuman regime just because they _weren't_ communists is not a legitimate or moral reason.



I just don't believe you can equate the tactics of the north and south. I don't intend to imply that the south was errorless, but they simply did not commit the steady stream of atrocities that the north did. If you were there and did not see it that way, you must have seen things most did not. If you weren't there, I guess you would have to take the word of those who were there, and evaluate their perceptions or agendas.


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## Tez3 (Apr 24, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well of course all of the 311 million Americans judge Communism the exact same way, all of us tend to be rather power hungry, close minded and petty too. You see all Americans are made from the same cookie cutter, go to the same exact school and are all taught the same exact thing so we all think alike and if there are no foreigners around to see us we all dress alike too.
> 
> I guess I am not in much of a mood today to be labeled or lumped into a generalization based on a couple books, but it has been my experience that people tend to look for and read things to support their beliefs. But more to the point; yes you have, not personally but electronically. You need to read more carefully. There are also a few professors in various universities throughout the USA that write about it and study it without a jaundiced eye.
> 
> ...




Temper temper, I'm not labelling Americans as all the same, I'm pointing out that in my experience meeting, talking to and reading what Aemricans say, it seems thea communism is the one thing that Aemricans agree on as being 'bad'. It has nothing to do with schools jobs, race or religion, I simply have never heard or read of any American other than a member of the American communist Party think that communism had any redeeming features. Prove me wrong, show me articles where Americans have looked at communism as anything other than 'evil'. In my 50 odd years I have read considerable more than a couple of books, have known considerable more Americans than just a couple as well as having spoken to many Americans who were all as different from each other as it's possible to be yet the one thing they all had in common, apart from being American, was that they were all anti communist with communism being as I said 'evil'. *In this one thing* I have yet to find an American who thinks communism isn't a bad thing. As I said prove to me that Americans discuss communism in the same way they discuss any other political system.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 24, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Temper temper,



Not mad, just bored, and don't like gross generalizations....but I am keen to try one in a minute



Tez3 said:


> I'm not labelling Americans as all the same, I'm pointing out that in my experience meeting, talking to and reading what Aemricans say, it seems thea communism is the one thing that Aemricans agree on as being 'bad'. It has nothing to do with schools jobs, race or religion, I simply have never heard or read of any American other than a member of the American communist Party think that communism had any redeeming features. Prove me wrong, show me articles where Americans have looked at communism as anything other than 'evil'. In my 50 odd years I have read considerable more than a couple of books, have known considerable more Americans than just a couple as well as having spoken to many Americans who were all as different from each other as it's possible to be yet the one thing they all had in common, apart from being American, was that they were all anti communist with communism being as I said 'evil'. *In this one thing* I have yet to find an American who thinks communism isn't a bad thing.




funny, I thought I was an American...:hmm: guess I was wrong




Tez3 said:


> *As I said prove to me that Americans discuss communism in the same way they discuss any other political system*.



Nope, don't really care. You have made your decision and you are convinced your right... But then that just like the British when it comes to all things American

if you truly care you will look....


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## WC_lun (Apr 24, 2012)

Tez, I don't think communism is the evil thing that many do.  I prefer capitalism, because it is what I know, and even in its' excesses I understand it mechanizations.  I have friends in other countries that are under comunist rule.  Most are happy.  It seems only when human nature rears its ugly head and small men get greedy to possess more is when they become unhappy.  Much the same as our own countries, huh?   I figure to each his own.  If someone in another country prefers communism then so be it.  I do also understand that comminism and totalarism are not the same, and I cannot agree to the later.

You will see very few Americans who do not have total negative views of communism.  Until very recently communism was the enemy.  If you didn't hate it with all your guts, you were somehow disloyal to America.  Even today it is used to steer our political discussions.  You hear the cries of "Its socialism!" when the target of said label is not.  However, people hear that cry and react to it.  We are conditioned to do so.


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## granfire (Apr 24, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> Tez, I don't think communism is the evil thing that many do.  I prefer capitalism, because it is what I know, and even in its' excesses I understand it mechanizations.  I have friends in other countries that are under comunist rule.  Most are happy.  It seems only when human nature rears its ugly head and small men get greedy to possess more is when they become unhappy.  Much the same as our own countries, huh?   I figure to each his own.  If someone in another country prefers communism then so be it.  I do also understand that comminism and totalarism are not the same, and I cannot agree to the later.
> 
> You will see very few Americans who do not have total negative views of communism.  Until very recently communism was the enemy.  If you didn't hate it with all your guts, you were somehow disloyal to America.  Even today it is used to steer our political discussions.  You hear the cries of "Its socialism!" when the target of said label is not.  However, people hear that cry and react to it.  We are conditioned to do so.




yep, pretty much what she has been pointing out all along.


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## Tez3 (Apr 24, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not mad, just bored, and don't like gross generalizations....but I am keen to try one in a minute
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Bollocks, I told you I was speaking from my experience, I didn't say I'd randomly decided to label all Americans as one thing, YOU decided I'd done that. You decided I was getting at all Americans, you read into what I'd written what you wanted to not what I had actually written.

So you are a communist then?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 24, 2012)

Tez
I have not read any response you may have written to my lastpost as I type this because I do not want to respond with any anger what-so-ever.

I have reread my last two posts and although they did not start out angry in retrospect they did angry, my apologies for that. Also I find blanket statements and generalizations quite distasteful and I apologize for my use of one and I apologize to any who consider themselves British if they were offended by it.

Now you are to be congratulated for pulling me off center. I am not sure if it was planned or just luck or if you simply missed the point of what I was saying so I will clarify

You made a statement and professed it with &#8220;The Americans&#8221;and this implies all Americans and there are roughly 312 million Americans and that statement would apply to all from the east to the west coast from Mexico to Canada and all natural and naturalized people that are legally Americans.

You later asked for proof in the form of an Author or a government person and that request may have come from my prior post that was getting a bit angry and going off point

You see here is the thing, I do not need to provide any suchproof since your statement implies all Americans and I am an American that does not think the way you say we all do. Therefore your statement is wrong. Additionally I am willing to bet (and I only bet on sure things) that I am not the only American that thinks this way. Once again your statement (The Americans) which implies all is wrong. Now let&#8217;s go to those Americans that arenot born here but are legally Americans. I am equally certain that some ofthose Americans do not think the way you are claiming we all think, Again your statement is wrong.  You see I only need to prove that 1 American does not think the way your statement implies that we all do to prove it wrong.

Now if you had said the things you have read form America ormany Americans or any other  that doesnot imply all I would have had no issue.

Once again I find myself much deeper into the Study that Iever wish to be and with that I bid you adieu. 

EDIT

I just read your response and no I am not a communist, I am also not a Republican or a Democrat. And yes I did decide you had labelled all Americans since you statement "The Americans" implies all Americans. 

Now are you saying that I need to be a Communist to not vilify any government that is?

You have a good day


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## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2012)

I asked if you were a communist and you think I'm saying you need to be a communist to comment? Wow, I think you have taken this the totally wrong way. The things you think I mean I don't, the things you think I said I haven't. You are reading stuff into my posts that aren't there, I'm sorry for that because I don't want to fall out over this.
WC_ lun gave me the answer I was looking for without rancour, Gran backed it up.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 25, 2012)

:hmm: Out of that entire post you picked out the following and ignored the rest...interesting.



Tez3 said:


> I asked if you were a communist and you think I'm saying you need to be a communist to comment? Wow, I think you have taken this the totally wrong way. The things you think I mean I don't, the things you think I said I haven't. You are reading stuff into my posts that aren't there, I'm sorry for that because I don't want to fall out over this.
> WC_ lun gave me the answer I was looking for without rancour, Gran backed it up.



Please allow me to answer

No I do not think that at all, I was just asking a simple question for purposes of clarification, I did not say that is what you thought....so who is reading stuff into posts and taking things totally wrong 


Now



Tez3 said:


> The things you think I mean I don't, the things you think I said I haven't.



Since you are clainming that there are things I think you have said that you haven't then allow me to ask

Did you or did you not say "The Americans"? since that is the only thing I think you said.


As to the answers that you wanted and liked, did you miss this one from me?



Xue Sheng said:


> I don&#8217;t condemn communism any more than I condemn capitalism. I have seen with my own eyes people living happily in China with no desire to move and posted on MT a few years back that it was not evil like many were claiming in whatever post that was. Of course I was told I was flat wrong but then I had been there and they hadn&#8217;t and what is is so I dod not much care. I have also said that there are no true Communist Governments on the planet there are countries ruled by a Communist Party but they are not exactly a Communist society.


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## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2012)

I said the Americans *seem to think*... that's what it looks like from outside, you have the McCarthy era, you have the media, films, books, newspaper articles, even comedy programmes all with people/characters condemning communism as the most evil thing ever, it's been like that since the end of the last World War. You have comic characters,politicians, newsreaders even,  condemning communism, speeches are made, the whole of America's foreign policy at one time seemed to be solely about beating the communists, you even invaded Grenada! Cuba is still ostracised by America, how do you think the rest of the world sees the American view on communism?
http://john-kirshon.suite101.com/mccarthy-launches-anti-communist-witch-hunt-a199887

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2751/is_n45/ai_18827121/
http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/ramblings/anticomm.html

http://antimisandry.com/politics-go...icans-hate-communism-22169.html#axzz1t4a2yr1p
http://www.jfredmacdonald.com/trm/111spytv.htm
http://www.jfredmacdonald.com/trm/111children.htm
http://www.museum.tv/eotvsection.php?entrycode=blacklisting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Nightmare
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1225859?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=47698930198347



I'm not ignoring your qustions and I'm not picking what I want to answer, I'm looking after my daughter who has just got out of hospital and am just popping in and out of MT for a bit of R&R. I have no intention of arguing. If you have been outside your country then you know what the perception of America and communism. You have successive governments who preach the evils of communism, there seems to be no dissenting voice to this portrayal that we can see outside America. You are in a country that is known specifically for it's opposition and hatred of communism and one that has taken steps to interfere in other countries politics to try to fight communism. It's logical to conclude from the mass media reports plus what Americans have told me for me to conclude that America is a place that is vehemently anti communist.

right I'm off to make chicken soup, I kid you not she can't eat anything solid at the moment.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 25, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I said the Americans *seem to think*... that's what it looks like from outside, you have the McCarthy era, you have the media, films, books, newspaper articles, even comedy programmes all with people/characters condemning communism as the most evil thing ever, it's been like that since the end of the last World War. You have comic characters,politicians, newsreaders even,  condemning communism, speeches are made, the whole of America's foreign policy at one time seemed to be solely about beating the communists, you even invaded Grenada! Cuba is still ostracised by America, how do you think the rest of the world sees the American view on communism?
> http://john-kirshon.suite101.com/mccarthy-launches-anti-communist-witch-hunt-a199887
> 
> http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2751/is_n45/ai_18827121/
> ...



Actually you said



Tez3 said:


> *The Americans seem to have a fear of communism to such an extent that they will countenence and support dictatorships of all other kinds as long as they are anti communist.* The communists in Vietnam were fighting against a dictatorship, it wasn't a democratice government they were trying to replace. Now whether you regard a communist government as a dictatorship or not the fact remains that America in Vietnam was not supporting a democratically elected government, it was trying to stop a communist one. Communism might not be your thing but if the people of a country wish to have a communist government it's no business of any other country, the sole purpose of America being in Vietnam was to stop the communists not to advance democracy or to rid the world of a terrorist organisation.
> l



This, to me, implied all.... but I would not disagree with your post as to why America was in Vietnam.... however there were many in many America at the time that did not believe we should be there at all. Sadly they took that out more on the solider and not those that sent them there.... but no matter, I'm done with this

I hope your daughter feels better soon.


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## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually you said
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I say what I mean, surely by now people should realise I don't 'imply' anything. I mean what I said, America *seems* to have a fear of communism I said that because it does seem to have a fear of communism, looking at the media, the actions, the comments, books, articles, television programmes, the McCarthy Era and after, you must admit that certainly seems like you all have a fear of communism, I don't see, which is why I asked before, anyone refuting this general hatred for the system of communism, at one point your government was going to make it illegal to be a communist party member. It very much seems as if the country has a fear of communism. As I said America invaded Grenada a very tiny island because it didn't want communists in power there so my comments aren't that far off being correct are they? The CIA got involved in Italian general elections for the same reason, there's been a lot of interference in countries by Americans because of this fear of communism, of course not every single citizen knew about this, was involved or approved but it was done in your name all the same. Yes Britain has done similiar things but is far more cold blooded in that it's done to protect British _business interests_ from anyone not just communists, it's also done on a far smaller scale as we lack the resources of the USA.

We've has a nasty scare with my daughter, she contacted a virulent infection from a dental abscess she didn't know she had. Had to have emergency op  after being in horrible pain, to remove a tooth and have a drain put in that went right up under her eye plus drips for painkillers and antibiotics. 

Whether you have a fear of communism or not never ever fear a dentist, always have your teeth checked. She had a bit of a sensitive tooth, we'd had a lot of ice cream on holiday, but it was a very slight chip on one tooth that nearly killed her, if the infection had spread a just little more upwards to the brain, that would likely have been it. It had got to her eyes, closing them as well as across most of her face, spread very quickly, frightenly so. anyway she's on the mend now thank goodness.


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## elder999 (Apr 25, 2012)

As part of my government clearance, I had to state that I "was not, and never had been a member of the Communist party." Ditto for simply working in a nuclear power plant. Interstingly, my _grandparents'_ membership, circa 1930, when it was fashionable, also came up during my investigation for my government clearance-I had to disavow _their_ membership, since they were both long dead...:lfao:-just for some perspective.


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## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2012)

I said 'it seems' that way, perhaps it's not but saying 'it seems' is a reasonable thing to say from the evidence I've been offered. Correct me if I'm wrong by all means but don't say I'm implying anything as I'm not.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 25, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I say what I mean, surely by now people should realise I don't 'imply' anything. I mean what I said, America *seems* to have a fear of communism I said that because it does seem to have a fear of communism, looking at the media, the actions, the comments, books, articles, television programmes, the McCarthy Era and after, you must admit that certainly seems like you all have a fear of communism, I don't see, which is why I asked before, anyone refuting this general hatred for the system of communism, at one point your government was going to make it illegal to be a communist party member. It very much seems as if the country has a fear of communism. As I said America invaded Grenada a very tiny island because it didn't want communists in power there so my comments aren't that far off being correct are they? The CIA got involved in Italian general elections for the same reason, there's been a lot of interference in countries by Americans because of this fear of communism, of course not every single citizen knew about this, was involved or approved but it was done in your name all the same. Yes Britain has done similiar things but is far more cold blooded in that it's done to protect British _business interests_ from anyone not just communists, it's also done on a far smaller scale as we lack the resources of the USA.



At what point was the US government going to make it illegal to be a communist party member? I admit I may have missed it but I have been here since the 60s and this is the first I heard of it. I am not saying that there is a rather negative view of communism here (socilism too by the way) but I am beginning to wonder if what you are experiencing is the view of someone from the outside looking in. Much the same as I had about China before I studied it (college), married a woman from there, and I later went there. Based on general reading and movies many, up until the Olympics, thought that it was still much the same as it was during the days of Mao and the Cultural Revolution (See 1997 movie Red Corner). So, although I am not denying issues many have with Communism here (and socialism) I do not think it is as bad as what you have been lead to believe based on what you have read and seen. 

If you listen to what my wife was taught about America in China you would be amazed, I know she was after she got here&#8230;believe it or not the government was much worse than she was lead to believe as it applies to democracy. Also based on movies she saw from America in China she was pretty sure all Americans were rather violent and hoped form bed to bed when she first got here.



Tez3 said:


> We've has a nasty scare with my daughter, she contacted a virulent infection from a dental abscess she didn't know she had. Had to have emergency op  after being in horrible pain, to remove a tooth and have a drain put in that went right up under her eye plus drips for painkillers and antibiotics.
> 
> Whether you have a fear of communism or not never ever fear a dentist, always have your teeth checked. She had a bit of a sensitive tooth, we'd had a lot of ice cream on holiday, but it was a very slight chip on one tooth that nearly killed her, if the infection had spread a just little more upwards to the brain, that would likely have been it. It had got to her eyes, closing them as well as across most of her face, spread very quickly, frightenly so. anyway she's on the mend now thank goodness.



My wife and I are always very good about getting ourselves and the kids to the dentist..... ok, it is more my wife... but I agree.

Glad to hear she is getting better


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 25, 2012)

elder999 said:


> As part of my government clearance, I had to state that I "was not, and never had been a member of the Communist party." Ditto for simply working in a nuclear power plant. Interstingly, my _grandparents'_ membership, circa 1930, when it was fashionable, also came up during my investigation for my government clearance-I had to disavow _their_ membership, since they were both long dead...:lfao:-just for some perspective.



Joseph McCarthy would not be pleased...... but he died in 1957 so I guess you get a pass  

So says the guy married to a woman from a Communist Country


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## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act

This is what I'm telling you, that America seems to be a very anti communist country based on media, films, television programmes, books and americans talking!! America gives the impression that it hates communism! The actions it's taken as I said, the invasion of small Commonwealth islands, interference in elections of countries like Italy and Australia plus of course Vietnam etc do lead one to think that communists don't fare well if America can help it.!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions
http://www.utexas.edu/law/centers/humanrights/lister/assets/pdf/Cold%20War%20Diplomacy/sterileanticommunism.pdf
http://www.fsmitha.com/review/eisenhower.html
http://www.alternativeinsight.com/Foreign_Policy_Failures.html


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 25, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act
> 
> This is what I'm telling you, that America seems to be a very anti communist country based on media, films, television programmes, books and americans talking!! America gives the impression that it hates communism! The actions it's taken as I said, the invasion of small Commonwealth islands, interference in elections of countries like Italy and Australia plus of course Vietnam etc do lead one to think that communists don't fare well if America can help it.!
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions
> ...



Actually I think the US medical students that were there had something to do with it. As well as reestablishing the US military with an easy win after Korea and Vietnam too, I honestly do not think Communism had all that much to do with it, however it was a nice excuse. We are not that far from Cuba and we are not invading them these days nor were we even talking about it in 1983. America in 2012 is not the same America it was, well ever, but most certainly not the same as it was in the 50s (McCarthy) or the same America it was in 1961 (Bay of Pigs). Communism and Socialism these days, IMO, are used more for distraction like a shiny object. It gets a lot of people looking the other way while those in charge do things they prefer we pay no attention too.

What I am saying is that yes there is a dislike of communism but I do not think it is as bad as you are being lead to believe based on what you are reading. Much the same as we are lead to believe about China or as the Chinese are lead to believe about America, and England for that matter

Wiki is...well wiki, Eisenhower (October 14, 1890 &#8211; March 28, 1969) is long gone, Lister was born in 1913 and is not around anymore either and I have never heard of alternativeinsight.com. It appears you are reading a lot from or related to the cold war era


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## elder999 (Apr 25, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> 1485740Communism and Socialism these days, IMO, are used more for distraction like a shiny object. It gets a lot of people looking the other way while those in charge do things they prefer we pay no attention too.[/B]




*THIS! 
*:asian:


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## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually I think the US medical students that were there had something to do with it. As well as reestablishing the US military with an easy win after Korea and Vietnam too, I honestly do not think Communism had all that much to do with it, however it was a nice excuse. We are not that far from Cuba and we are not invading them these days nor were we even talking about it in 1983. America in 2012 is not the same America it was, well ever, but most certainly not the same as it was in the 50s (McCarthy) or the same America it was in 1961 (Bay of Pigs). Communism and Socialism these days, IMO, are used more for distraction like a shiny object. It gets a lot of people looking the other way while those in charge do things they prefer we pay no attention too.
> 
> What I am saying is that yes there is a dislike of communism but I do not think it is as bad as you are being lead to believe based on what you are reading. Much the same as we are lead to believe about China or as the Chinese are lead to believe about America, and England for that matter
> 
> Wiki is...well wiki, Eisenhower (October 14, 1890  March 28, 1969) is long gone, Lister was born in 1913 and is not around anymore either and I have never heard of alternativeinsight.com. It appears you are reading a lot from or related to the cold war era



Now you see that was easy! I said it _seems_ this way and you tell me it's not that way, which is what I was after, confirmation one way or another of what was going on. Certain very right wing posters on here don't help matters because they see everything bad as socialist which as I've been told by them is the same as communism ( I said 'them' to be polite but I mean 'he' really, surprised he isn't here actually)

The Cold War era leaves certain scars on us older people, we were sitting here in the UK wondering if the world was going to end in a big bang when the Bay of Pigs debarcle was going on. Americans foreign policies affect so many people outside of the country that we look at politics in america with concern a good deal of the time. It may not be any of our business who you elect but sometimes like the Bay of Pigs we do end up fearing for our lives. I do remember that by the way, a scary time to be a child.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Now you see that was easy! I said it _seems_ this way and you tell me it's not that way, which is what I was after, confirmation one way or another of what was going on. Certain very right wing posters on here don't help matters because they see everything bad as socialist which as I've been told by them is the same as communism ( I said 'them' to be polite but I mean 'he' really, surprised he isn't here actually)
> 
> The Cold War era leaves certain scars on us older people, we were sitting here in the UK wondering if the world was going to end in a big bang when the Bay of Pigs debarcle was going on. Americans foreign policies affect so many people outside of the country that we look at politics in america with concern a good deal of the time. It may not be any of our business who you elect but sometimes like the Bay of Pigs we do end up fearing for our lives. I do remember that by the way, a scary time to be a child.



Nope I do not remember that one, I was way to young, but I was on a Navy base in Florida then. From my understanding it was a scary time for the people that lived here too. And there have been multiple scary times since.


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