# Am I Just Old Fashion



## GuruJim1 (Jun 2, 2006)

I remember when I started training, the art in the Martial Arts was just as important as combat. In this is day of UFC and Pride Fighting it seems that the art is becoming lost. Most MMA is void of forms because of the thought that Kata wont work on the streets. Don't get me wrong I believe in a realistic fighting system as much as anyone, but I don't see as much importance but on practicing of the art. 

I love practicing forms (Empty Hands or Weapons), and I enjoy practicing all those fancy kicks. I feel the Martial Arts is not just about destroying your oppenet, but the mastery of your body, mind, and soul. I love being able to amaze people with my forms, and to watch a skilled Martial Artist preform a Kata. I still see the art in Martial Arts, and this brings me to my question, "Am I Just Old Fashion"???


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## mantis (Jun 2, 2006)

GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> I remember when I started training, the art in the Martial Arts was just as important as combat. In this is day of UFC and Pride Fighting it seems that the art is becoming lost. Most MMA is void of forms because of the thought that Kata wont work on the streets. Don't get me wrong I believe in a realistic fighting system as much as anyone, but I don't see as much importance but on practicing of the art.
> 
> I love practicing forms (Empty Hands or Weapons), and I enjoy practicing all those fancy kicks. I feel the Martial Arts is not just about destroying your oppenet, but the mastery of your body, mind, and soul. I love being able to amaze people with my forms, and to watch a skilled Martial Artist preform a Kata. I still see the art in Martial Arts, and this brings me to my question, "Am I Just Old Fashion"???



No you are not.  The western mentality emphasizes that one part of martial arts, which is the fighting.  It also appended to it another attribute which is the pride part of it.  

Some people choose to stick with discipline and humility and the other values traditional or mostly eastern martial arts associate with, and some choose the western version of fighting.  To people who chose to consider the fighting version of the arts it seems that UFC, or street-competency is the top of their dreams.  If i do not see your art in the UFC then it must suck. 

I'll give an example: i saw a video online of a shaolin monk who is able to stand on one finger (died in 1989 and was the only in the world to achieve the one-finger zen).  He did it when he's 40 and demonstrated it again when he's 90+.  I read the comments people had on that clip and most of them were "how's that gonna help you on the street"? (as well as other "that's gay" comments)

Another example given by bruce lee: he said to a western person I may grab a rock and break it in front of him to demonstrate my fighting skill.  but if I am to show that to an asian person it will not make any impression.  On the other hand he gave the example of an aikido master sitting in a restaurant eating when 3 robbers started harrassing him.  All he did is he caught some flies with his chop sticks.  the robbers bowed it out and ran away.  You see, in the western culture catching a fly with your chop sticks does not have any indication of "street fighting competency".  

you are not old fashion.  You only realize that martial arts are more than bullying, and show off.


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## Ceicei (Jun 2, 2006)

The art is still there.  I do enjoy very much watching a skilled martial artist doing a very well-done kata.  If this means being "old fashioned", then so be it.  

Training in martial arts doesn't have to be combat oriented.  It is also for mastery of Self - physically, mentally, psychologically, and morally.  To watch a martial artist become such is awesome.  There is more to training than just being able to fight.  There are many, many reasons for why and how a person trains.  There are just as many different styles to fit the needs and wants of the students/instructors.  That's what makes life more interesting.

- Ceicei


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 2, 2006)

It's sad but there is less and less of the "art." The Western mentality tends to lean towards what is practical...what works. Jim-Bob don't care how purdy he looks, he just wants to whup sum butt! LOL. The loss is in the mental/spritual development of the student. Martial Arts is more than just physical..IMHO. I actually believe that someone that learns it all will be more effective than someone that just focuses on the physical. Their loss.


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## terryl965 (Jun 2, 2006)

The Art will always be there, just far from each other. MMA and xtreme have taken the western flashy world by storm and people forthe most part will buy anything and when it come to MA most is about a six week course for SD or a weekend seminar and that is what get people hurt more times than not.

I lova the Art of MA myself.
Terry


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## stone_dragone (Jun 2, 2006)

The good news: The art is still ailve and well.  

The bad news (for those interested in the art): In recent decades, the western public has taken its eyes away from the art and focuses more on the martial (televised MMA events, action movies, etc) and like produces like..."This is what the people will watch so if we want ratings, this is what we will show."

That MMA is growing in popularity is awesome, but TMA will never be replaced.  There are enough students and teachers to keep it going for another generation, and another, and another.  

Judo is a sport that gained immense popularity, but people still practice TJJ as well.

My [somewhat erratic] two cents


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2006)

Nope, youre a dinosaur....like me 

Many in the west and most unfortunately it has spread beyond the west, are interested in exactly as has been talked about Becoming dangerous and they want to get there as quickly as possible. And to be honest if that is what they want there is nothing wrong with that. But I do believe that you miss a lot of the actual art and its benefits by taking that approach.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 2, 2006)

Just out of curiosity... Why, on a western board, do some many people look down on western traditions, arts and training methods?  The west has been doing martial arts for a rather long time, and for most of us, western culture is OUR culture.


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## rmclain (Jun 2, 2006)

It really depends on the purpose of training.  People get into it for different reasons.

In our modern "information age," enemies tend to be mental rather than physical attackers.  The chance of using physical martial arts skills against an assailant are rare.  But, people have to deal with work/school-related stress, self-doubt, anger, depression, etc. on a daily (even hourly) basis.  I've lost two friends to these "mental enemies" in my life.  They both were unprepared to deal with these and committed suicide.  Which physical technique prepares them for battling these?  None.   But, through the physical training and proper philosophical guidance in training, they could have gained confidence and courage to battle their internal enemies.

Espscially where I instruct, I have mostly adult college-educated people as students that have white-collar jobs.  I really believe office jobs are bad for your health, not just from sitting on your butt all day (physical), but also the stupid inter-office politics and relationships that people have to deal with that cause stress.

So, for many of my students, martial art training is a way to improve their physical health, but more importantly provide an outlet for their "internal enemies" and a way to gain skills to help them battle these stressors.

In a sense, martial arts training has evolved from the battlefields of 100 years ago for another purpose in modern society.

R. McLain


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## monkey (Jun 2, 2006)

Si9nce some one quoted Bruce Lee,I will tell of his quote when aksed 1973 by Al Block.Some style become sport.Aikido,judo,I can go on & on,But still some are still combative!Jabbing fingers to the eyes,kicking to the groing.Now Im not knocking anything.But some started as a guess & be came law.They have no reguards for size-weight ect.If you truely want to exspress yourself!Which is very hard to do.You Must Train Every Part of Your body.  Noted as highlites with capitals.Not as shouting as some say it is.


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## bydand (Jun 2, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity... Why, on a western board, do some many people look down on western traditions, arts and training methods?  The west has been doing martial arts for a rather long time, and for most of us, western culture is OUR culture.



While I couldn't agree more with the general thought, I believe that we have a tendency to think EVERYTHING has to be modern/faster/improved for it to "work" for us.  Yes the MA's have been practiced for a long time here, nobody can argue that most of the MA's we practice here, were OLD when Columbus bumped into a bit of dirt that came to be known as North America.  Plus I think, IMHO, that the MA's are a whole package, not just different segments that can be picked through and trained in without the others.  Sure somebody could pick-up just the fighting (martial) aspect and make it work just great, but the whole package has this great tapestery that adds depth and meaning to that aspect.  Miss the rest, and you miss the "Art" of your MA.

Am I western in culture?  Oh brother, I am "Wonder Bread and Skippy" but I LOVE the *whole* MA culture.  Old Fashioned?  I guess a lot of us are here!  I would rather be "Old Fashioned" and have the surrounding blanket of a better understanding of the Art I love, than just be a great fighter and miss that portion.  I truely believe this is one of those things you CAN have both: great "fighting" skills and the form/understanding.  Ain't Life Grand!!


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## mantis (Jun 2, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity... Why, on a western board, do some many people look down on western traditions, arts and training methods? The west has been doing martial arts for a rather long time, and for most of us, western culture is OUR culture.



yeah, i noticed every single reply blamed the west. Which i think is completely true.
We are not trying to 'bash' western culture per say, but you have to realize that when the transfer of eastern arts (who are more common than western ones) to the west the arts lost quite a bit of their meaning.  The westerners took what they liked, and obviously tossed away what they did not understand.  Why did they not understand though?  Either because of feeling superior to eastern cultures and therefore they should not be learning the eastern culture crap, or because they did not care to learn what it's about.  Everytime a culture inherits something from another culture it loses a part of it depending of what the receiving culture accepts/rejects.  

Again, we are discussing the arts, not the cultures.  So I hope you do not get offended and feel like our goal  is to offend your culture.  The last thing i want to say (maybe i shouldnt) is what western traditions are you talking about? no offense, but west + tradition + culture in one sentence doesnt ring too many bells in my brain.  Feel free to remind us. (im only joking)


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## Andrew Green (Jun 2, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> but you have to realize that when the transfer of eastern arts (who are more common than western ones)



I have my doubts about this, but ok.



> to the west the arts lost quite a bit of their meaning. The westerners took what they liked, and obviously tossed away what they did not understand.



So... like the Okinawans did with Chinese arts?  Or the japanese did with Okinawan arts? or the Koreans with a Japanese art?


[/quote]
Again, we are discussing the arts, not the cultures. So I hope you do not get offended and feel like our goal is to offend your culture. The last thing i want to say (maybe i shouldnt) is what western traditions are you talking about? no offense, but west + tradition + culture in one sentence doesnt ring too many bells in my brain. Feel free to remind us. (im only joking)[/quote]

Don't worry, not going to get offended, just tring to stick a different spin in.  I have no problem with retaining culture as baggage, but what I do disagree with is the idea that taking a art and sticking a different culture over it is not a BAD thing. 

Now, where does the line between culture and art get drawn?  Terminology/Language? Training mentality? Training methods?


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## Grenadier (Jun 2, 2006)

GuruJim1, 

You do bring up a good point, that what people tend to see in terms of martial arts these days, is more of what's shown on television.  Now that the UFC has its own series on television, and that the K1, et al., folks have their own exposure as well, that is what becomes the hot topic amongst the general populace, and not necessarily those in the martial arts community, be it traditional or modern.  

Is this a bad thing?  Not at all.  Such shows have made many martial arts practitioners aware, that it never hurts to be well-rounded when it comes to the repetoire.  Also, there are going to be a fair number of individuals who watch such things, and may have their interest piqued in the world of martial arts.  After all, I would rather have someone training in a decent system (be it modern or traditional) than to be not training at all.  

At the same time, though, good ol' fashioned traditional martial arts is still out there, and just as widespread, if not moreso, as they were in the past.  These schools still teach using the same methods, and many aren't hesitant to adopt new techniques if they can validate their use.  It's just a matter of looking carefully, and finding it, while not falling for the hype of television, etc.  

The traditional martial arts have survived this long (and yes, here in the West) and as long as they do what they do, and stick with the system that got them here, they're going to continue to survive and flourish.  While the exposure will never be what the more visible shows have, the foundation upon which these traditional systems is solid, and will survive the test of time.


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## MJS (Jun 2, 2006)

GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> I remember when I started training, the art in the Martial Arts was just as important as combat. In this is day of UFC and Pride Fighting it seems that the art is becoming lost. Most MMA is void of forms because of the thought that Kata wont work on the streets. Don't get me wrong I believe in a realistic fighting system as much as anyone, but I don't see as much importance but on practicing of the art.
> 
> I love practicing forms (Empty Hands or Weapons), and I enjoy practicing all those fancy kicks. I feel the Martial Arts is not just about destroying your oppenet, but the mastery of your body, mind, and soul. I love being able to amaze people with my forms, and to watch a skilled Martial Artist preform a Kata. I still see the art in Martial Arts, and this brings me to my question, "Am I Just Old Fashion"???


 
I wouldn't say you're old fashion Jim.  Lately, I've notice that many who bash certain things, really don't have a good understanding of them.  They form a poor understanding, and assume that because they can't find any value in it, because they can't make it work, because they haven't taken the time to really research what it is that they're talking about and even go so far as to find someone qualified enough to teach them the fine points, they in-turn feel the need to bash something.  

Kata is only one small part of the arts, but nonetheless, its still an important part IMO.  Are we going to fight someone with the exact movments in kata? Not at all, but applications can be drawn out and used.  Again, it all comes down to knowing how to do it.

Mike


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## matt.m (Jun 2, 2006)

I too am a dinosaur in the respect that I want to learn the traditional art.  Look I take Tae Kwon Do for the forms and One Step Sparring etc.  I love TKD the art.  I hate TKD the sport.  Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching TKD and Judo in the Olympics.  However, I am smart enough to know there is a distinct difference between the two.  The training is totally different.


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## MardiGras Bandit (Jun 2, 2006)

The death of the art half of martial arts is the best thing to ever happen to them. Philosophy and mystic nonsense is less about teaching MA and more about filling time in a class with nothing better to offer. I want to learn martial arts for self defense and sport, not to take a refresher course in Ethics 101.

When it comes down to it, martial arts are about fighting, and when an art becomes so removed from that aspect that it's unrecognizable something is wrong. MMA has gone a long way towards killing the Kung Fu movie inspired BS in martial arts. Lets hope the job doesn't go unfinished.


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## GuruJim1 (Jun 2, 2006)

As a Combat Veteran, and Police Officer I believe realistic self-defense is a good idea. I have been called a barroom brawler art back in the day because of how I taught. My art is very combative that goes from Kicking Range into Striking Range into Offensive Trapping Range into Takedowns, and into Grappling. Many people have told me that my art looks very combative. However, the art isn't lost in my art. I put a big focus on Forms, and Personal Growth. My focus is on building a Martial Artist from the inside out and not just a fighter. I can't blame the western culture totally, but the human nature for good old violence. I just get tried of the guys that go around say, "your art sucks and to prove it I'm goina bet you up". 


*Funny story:*
I had a BJJ guy come into my class to start something. He ran his mouth saying how he could whup my butt in seconds. I asked him to leave and he called me a coward. I ask him if I sparred him would he leave, he said yes. Being a grappler myself and he didn't know this since I was teaching a knife fighting class (grappling is apart of my art). He quickly took me down into a side mount. I produced my Tactical Folder (Training Lock Blade Knife) and sliced his carotid artery and stabbed him many times in the back. Not knowing I had a knife he continued to wrestle with me. All of a sudden got into the mount and I escaped the mount and him being a good grappler he quickly got me into his guard. I started stabbing his stomach and chest. He blow up once he saw I had a knife. He told me that is against the rules. AGAINST THE RULES??? I thought this was going to be a street fight (Which he died in)??? I told him if got the best of me in a street fight and was strangling me, then I have a fear for my life and I could respond with deadly force. If he was fighting an EX-CON then he doesn't care anyway and would stab you because he wouldn't want to lose a fight. I pointed out that once real reality came in the door, he died. I then asked him to leave. He left without any more argument.:mp5:


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## tempus (Jun 2, 2006)

Interesting conversation.  It may be also how things are viewed.  In some of the classes we work on ki exercises.  I have a problem with them.  Some people look at them from the mind\body idea, but when I look at them I see physics at work.  I am able to come to the same outcome, but in a different view.

I also watched a class where a Kata was being performed and they were doing them as fast as they could.  I then saw some TV show where the lady was in Japan looking for a kata and these masters did them slow, but you could see the power in there body as they did them.  Not sure which is the correct way, but I preferred the way these masters did them.

I also caught a weapon's demonstartion and the loud yelling turned me off from it.  Is the yelling at the top of your lungs a wetern thing?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2006)

matt.m said:
			
		

> I too am a dinosaur in the respect that I want to learn the traditional art. Look I take Tae Kwon Do for the forms and One Step Sparring etc.


 
One step sparring is still taught...COOL!!

I use to train TDK waaaaay back before the Olympics got a hold of it and 1 step sparring was great. 

I agree nothing wrong with the sports side, I think you miss a lot of the art, particularly the mental training and philosophy when you forget the forms that are part of it

But being a Dinosaur I would think that


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2006)

GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> *Funny story:*
> 
> I had a BJJ guy come into my class to start something. He ran his mouth saying how he could whup my butt in seconds. I asked him to leave and he called me a coward. I ask him if I sparred him would he leave, he said yes. Being a grappler myself and he didn't know this since I was teaching a knife fighting class (grappling is apart of my art). He quickly took me down into a side mount. I produced my Tactical Folder (Training Lock Blade Knife) and sliced his carotid artery and stabbed him many times in the back. Not knowing I had a knife he continued to wrestle with me. All of a sudden got into the mount and I escaped the mount and him being a good grappler he quickly got me into his guard. I started stabbing his stomach and chest. He blow up once he saw I had a knife. He told me that is against the rules. AGAINST THE RULES??? I thought this was going to be a street fight (Which he died in)??? I told him if got the best of me in a street fight and was strangling me, then I have a fear for my life and I could respond with deadly force. If he was fighting an EX-CON then he doesn't care anyway and would stab you because he wouldn't want to lose a fight. I pointed out that once real reality came in the door, he died. I then asked him to leave. He left without any more argument.:mp5:


 
Great story, I have tried to get that pint across to both sports and pure forms people, it ain't easy.


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## green meanie (Jun 2, 2006)

GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> Most MMA is void of forms because of the thought that Kata wont work on the streets. Don't get me wrong I believe in a realistic fighting system as much as anyone, but I don't see as much importance put on practicing of the art.


 
The reason MMA is void of forms is because most people in the MMA study arts that don't have kata. This isn't a departure from the way these arts were intended to be taught and learned they didn't have kata in the first place. Most MMA is comprised of wrestling, brazilian jiu-jitsu, and boxing / muay thai. Now I don't know about muay thai but I've studied the other three and kata just isn't the way the arts are taught or practiced. There's nothing wrong with that. :asian:


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## green meanie (Jun 2, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> The last thing i want to say (maybe i shouldnt) is what western traditions are you talking about? no offense, but west + tradition + culture in one sentence doesnt ring too many bells in my brain. Feel free to remind us. (im only joking)


 
I'm a third generation wrestler who was part of the first wrestling program our high school ever had. I now proudly teach my 'family art' to my children and coach the wrestling team at the same high school where it all began. How's that for western + tradition + culture? Ringing in bells yet?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> The reason MMA is void of forms is because most people in the MMA study arts that don't have kata. This isn't a departure from the way these arts were intended to be taught and learned they didn't have kata in the first place. Most MMA is comprised of wrestling, brazilian jiu-jitsu, and boxing / muay thai. Now I don't know about muay thai but I've studied the other three and kata just isn't the way the arts are taught or practiced. There's nothing wrong with that. :asian:


 
This is true, I use to study Jujitsu and there were no katas of forms and Jujitsu is a very old and traditional Japanese art and I liked it a lot. And I will also admit back then I was completely against katas, I felt they were a waste of time. But after studying TDK I felt different about it. 

Just as a note: I do not agree with bashing any martial art, whether that be CMA. MMA, JMA, whatever. Theyre all good and they all have their good points.

But if you study an art that has katas or forms not learning those looses the essence of that art.


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## GuruJim1 (Jun 2, 2006)

Don't get me wrong I'm putting any martial art down. If they was void of kata then fine, I'm just talking about the openly bashing of a more traditional approach of the arts. I have heard and chatted with people that bashes art because they choise to keep the art side alive. I have had MMA and BJJ guy tell me to try to take my Forms into the UFC and see how fast I get beaten. I do practice for combat, but I also ready my mind and love the artistic side of the Martial Arts. However, let's get one thing straight. UFC is as close to street fighting as you can get, but it not true street fighting. Without rules fighters will die a quick or very a painful death. I'm just speaking out against people that does come from a classical background and now is into Martial Bully. I like to watch the UFC and Pride fights as well, but I see another side of the coin as well.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2006)

GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong I'm putting any martial art down. If they was void of kata then fine, I'm just talking about the openly bashing of a more traditional approach of the arts. I have heard and chatted with people that bashes art because they choise to keep the art side alive. I have had MMA and BJJ guy tell me to try to take my Forms into the UFC and see how fast I get beaten. I do practice for combat, but I also ready my mind and love the artistic side of the Martial Arts. However, let's get one thing straight. UFC is as close to street fighting as you can get, but it not true street fighting. Without rules fighters will die a quick or very a painful death. I'm just speaking out against people that does come from a classical background and now is into Martial Bully. I like to watch the UFC and Pride fights as well, but I see another side of the coin as well.


 
I agree, hey I am the guy that did the "Enough with the CMA bashing already" post after all. 

It was just that green meanie's post made me think what I was saying might be taken as bashing another art and I am against that. Also it made me remember that way back in the Stone Age I was one of those anti-kata guys


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## green meanie (Jun 2, 2006)

GuruJim1 said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong I'm putting any martial art down. If they was void of kata then fine, I'm just talking about the openly bashing of a more traditional approach of the arts. I have heard and chatted with people that bashes art because they choise to keep the art side alive. I have had MMA and BJJ guy tell me to try to take my Forms into the UFC and see how fast I get beaten. I do practice for combat, but I also ready my mind and love the artistic side of the Martial Arts. However, let's get one thing straight. UFC is as close to street fighting as you can get, but it not true street fighting. Without rules fighters will die a quick or very a painful death. I'm just speaking out against people that does come from a classical background and now is into Martial Bully. I like to watch the UFC and Pride fights as well, but I see another side of the coin as well.


 
Sounds to me like you've met a couple of guys who have represented the art badly. It happens. And it's unfortunate but it doesn't mean that everyone involved in MMA thinks and behaves that way. You should know that right? :asian:


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## GuruJim1 (Jun 2, 2006)

Green Meanie,

I do know that every art has it's ********. I know that not everyone in the BJJ and MMA crowd is like that. It's only the bad apples that show themself and it matter of time until they get a hard lesson taught to them. All I'm saying is that just because one want a realistic fighting art, the art shouldn't suffer. I've had student leave my school after training with me and join Bando touries, and MMA contest. All I'm saying is, it's a warrior at peace that makes for the deadest fighter. I find peace in my forms, and in my art as an artist. I know BJJ and MMA people and I can say they are good people. But 1% is all about being a bully as is other arts, but they have also stray of the art as well. When I say art I mean finding an inner peace that not all about kickin butt. It's about being a better person and artist.


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## green meanie (Jun 2, 2006)

Agreed. Not trying to push your buttons Jim, just trying to point out that there's more than one way to find peace in the martial arts.
Kata happens to be your way and that's great, but for me it's rolling around. 

_"Today, like every other day, we wake up empty and frightened._
_Don't open the door to the study and begin reading._
_Take down a musical instrument. 
Let the beauty we love be what we do. 
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." -Rumi_

:asian:


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## GuruJim1 (Jun 3, 2006)

I agree. I only used the kata as an example. I have seen so much of this, "my art is better and I'll beat you up to prove it". Martial arts is a way of peace. We only fight because we are forced into combat, not because we can. I enjoy rolling around on the ground grappling as well. I enjoy working out with all styles and learn about other styles. My inner peace is to be the best person and artist I can be. Prepare for battle and hope it never come. However, in my line of work it will. I just love to get lost in my workouts and become better this year than the last. Your not pushing my buttons Green Meanie. I understand where your coming from. All I'm saying is that martial arts is for more than just fighting, and to focus only on fighting is very narrow minded.


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## Dark (Jun 3, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> The death of the art half of martial arts is the best thing to ever happen to them. Philosophy and mystic nonsense is less about teaching MA and more about filling time in a class with nothing better to offer. I want to learn martial arts for self defense and sport, not to take a refresher course in Ethics 101.
> 
> When it comes down to it, martial arts are about fighting, and when an art becomes so removed from that aspect that it's unrecognizable something is wrong. MMA has gone a long way towards killing the Kung Fu movie inspired BS in martial arts. Lets hope the job doesn't go unfinished.


 
     I love this comment I truly do because it shows how inane a lack of morals can be. Lets talk reality, here for a minute. I agree contact training is good, but what about the guys who teach knife fighting or carry fire arms? 

Morals means responsibilty, ethic means control and in the real world control can save your life more then fighting ability. Thats the reason for philosophy and ethical training.

    Every MA and yes even MMA loses in the real world, because of unfounded myths. And if you approach MAs at ground level: Martial = War, Art = A Science. The science of war, war is about death and killing. True Karate, what I learned included ground fighting concepts, but every tough guy martial artist I've delt with, not just BJJist but karatekas and even an aikidoka panic in a down and dirty fight.
     Now I agree there are allot of myths in the martials, and one happens to the sport prepares you for the street. The other is the ultimate martial art. Tell me how you trained and compare it with my full contact karate and see who has a more realistic training base. You up for it? I'll even go first..? I will warn you I train for the street, a ring...


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## pstarr (Jun 3, 2006)

Absolutely!  The people who insist that forms have nothing to do with fighting simply don't understand them.  If they weren't important; if they had nothing to do with the development of superior fighting skills, why would our (martial arts) forefathers have bothered with them?

     The originators of the traditional martial arts never used to fight with boxing gloves, groin cups, or in boxing rings with referees.  There were no rules, no pads, no coaches, no rounds.  And if you won, you just got to go home.

    Back in the 30's, the Okinawan population in Hawaii felt they'd lost face because American wrestlers and boxers (who were mostly sailors) were beating their best jujutsu fighters.  They sent to Okinawa for karate practitioners to come over.
     Two senior karateka arrived in Hawaii but thought they were supposed to teach classes.  When they were informed that the locals wanted them to fight the wrestlers and boxers, they replied that "karate is too dangerous for that kind of sport" and went back to Okinawa.

     Back in the 50's Mas Oyama toured much of the U.S., taking on any fighter who'd climb into the ring with him.  This was back in the day when he believed kata was a vital part of training.
     Anyone who could stay on their feet for 3 minutes would win a cash reward.  In several hundred fights, nobody ever collected the money.

     Master Seiyu Oyata trained in traditional Okinawan karate just after WWII and he emphasizes kata very heavily because the real technique is hidden within these "books."  Even at his advanced age, if you get within striking range, he'll strike you once and it gets dark very quickly.

     A dear friend of mine who's a 6th dan in Isshinryu had two full-contact competitors ask for a match with him to see if this "traditional karate" stuff really worked.  He wasn't teaching a class at the time and happily obliged them.  They changed into their practice clothes and pads, but he told they'd have to remove the pads - after all, traditional karate doesn't use pads and it would alter the striking surface of his fists.
     They begrudgingly removed their gloves and the first fighter stepped onto the floor with him.  Within 20 seconds, the ungloved full-contact fighter was unconscious.
     The second fighter was a bit hesitant but walked onto the floor to see how well he'd fare.  He fired a punch and his arm went numb when the karate teacher struck a nerve point and then was dropped straight to the ground as a second blow was driven into his body.

     These are, I think, examples of what real martial ARTS should be.  Keep the faith.  The real art is still an art - not a sport.


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## MardiGras Bandit (Jun 3, 2006)

I was waiting to get a response off that one. Here goes...

I think you guys are both letting your prejudices cloud your interpretation of my post. I never knocked any martial art, though you both felt the need to do so. Rather I was talking about things like meditation and cliche martial arts ethics lessons taken straight from the karate kid. These are things I believe are used not towards any realistic training goals, but to fill time and try to fit into sterotypes of what martial arts should be.

As for kata, I don't think they are useless. There are things in BJJ that could be considered katas (things like submission and passing drills) that I find usefull. I do think their use is highly limited though, mostly for warming up and getting a refresher of the technique. When such things stop being a warmup and become the primary focus of training, you are loosing the abilty to judge your skills realistically.

One last thing: busting out Mas Oyama in an MA debate is like bringing up Rickson's 400-0 record. It's best to pretend you never heard of such things.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 3, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> I was waiting to get a response off that one. Here goes...
> 
> I think you guys are both letting your prejudices cloud your interpretation of my post. I never knocked any martial art, though you both felt the need to do so. Rather I was talking about things like meditation and cliche martial arts ethics lessons taken straight from the karate kid. These are things I believe are used not towards any realistic training goals, but to fill time and try to fit into sterotypes of what martial arts should be.


 
Actually, Qi training both internal and external is important to many MA whether they know it or not. I give you the karate kid was a movie and not reality.

And to simplify, external Qi training is why some appear to be able to be hit by a train and it does not faze them. These both can be lumped into mediation by many who do not understand them.


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## Dark (Jun 3, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> I was waiting to get a response off that one. Here goes...
> 
> I think you guys are both letting your prejudices cloud your interpretation of my post. I never knocked any martial art, though you both felt the need to do so. Rather I was talking about things like meditation and cliche martial arts ethics lessons taken straight from the karate kid. These are things I believe are used not towards any realistic training goals, but to fill time and try to fit into sterotypes of what martial arts should be.


 
   Yes and no... I am bias to the extent of unfounded propaganda I hear, often sites none proven "facts" the "90% of all fights end up on the ground" is a psuedo myth. Which comes up in the same arguements across the net and totally limited to the ring and not the street. My bias for MMA begins and ends with the propaganda machine of guys who have never been in a real fight.

   As far as the Karate kid thing, that movie was written to address the philosophy behind true karate, meditation is good for relaxation and mental development. It has less to do with enlightenment, as the practical application of controling the mind. The mind controls the body, emotion controls the mind, and instinct controls emotion. 
    If you can develop good instinct you can control your emotional responses, controlling your emotions, allows you to maintain a clear, focused and scientific mindset. This leads to controlled and focused applications of the body.

My Problems with TMA:
     It's the cultural training of most commercial schools that annoys me, I took Karate for four years and the only thing I learned about Japanese culture was how to count to 10 in Japanese. Few karate or any TMA ran out of a commerical dojo teach ethics or philosophy.
     Karate by technique is purely offensive, most experience karateka know this. However, it is also taught with an ethic undertone to prevent senseless violence. Allot of karate techniques deal with trapping, and locking as well as bone breaking at close range. 

     It wasn't long ago when different schools would have brawls in the street, just to prove who was the best. And allot of that childish behavior still carries one today. The internet is full of talker who had never been in a fight so the think of over dramatic, fiction based, brain rotting boasts. I wish we could have offical duels in the streets again, it would shut so many people up. Dojo is not the street, & a ring is not the street. A dojo can be made to function/simulate as the street, can a ring?

     I'm a shodan from back when most TMAs only went to godan (fifth degree black belt) before everyone and thier grandmother had 9th and 10th dans. Infact, O-Sensei Kano the founder of Judo the inventor of the belt system was only a 5th dan and those granted ranks above that where only honorary titles, usually given after death. How many people now claim 11th and higher dan grades? How many arts included extended their belt testing to make up for watered down teaching? I have a bias towards all of it; weak minds, weak wills and weak ideas...

  To that end I am old fashioned and proud of it...


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## Grenadier (Jun 5, 2006)

A very valid response, indeed!  I agree, for the most part, although there are a couple of tidbits 



			
				Dark said:
			
		

> My Problems with TMA:
> It's the cultural training of most commercial schools that annoys me, I took Karate for four years and the only thing I learned about Japanese culture was how to count to 10 in Japanese. Few karate or any TMA ran out of a commerical dojo teach ethics or philosophy.


 
I'd have to somewhat disagree on this matter.  The way I see it, the philosophy of the martial arts is taught in many ways, through the applications themselves.  In a way, your statement supports this: 



> Karate by technique is purely offensive, most experience karateka know this. However, it is also taught with an ethic undertone to prevent senseless violence.


 



> It wasn't long ago when different schools would have brawls in the street, just to prove who was the best. And allot of that childish behavior still carries one today. The internet is full of talker who had never been in a fight so the think of over dramatic, fiction based, brain rotting boasts.


 
Ugh.  I did a good bit of reading into John Keehan (aka Count Juan Raphael Dante) and the dojo wars.  Very ugly situation, and I often times wonder how he went from being a level-headed, respectable sensei (and important figure in the USKA) to what he became.  



> I wish we could have offical duels in the streets again, it would shut so many people up.


 
Actually, in several states, it's technically legal.  

On a more serious note, though, I'm not so sure that I'd want this, since you can darn well bet that there would be someone killed through such things.  It happened before when Keehan and his friends tried to crash in on a rival's dojo, dressed as law enforcement officers, and one of his closest friends died from that brouhaha.  



> Dojo is not the street, & a ring is not the street. A dojo can be made to function/simulate as the street, can a ring?


 
To a certain extent, yes, since there are many techniques that could be practiced safely.  However, you're right, that there are a lot of things that really can't be used in the ring, when it comes to aiding a street fight, such as biting, gouging, small joint manipulation, etc.  



> How many people now claim 11th and higher dan grades?


 
As long as they keep to themselves, and don't try to claim that their 11th or 12th degree black belts are better than other styles' 5th degree black belts (I'm just throwing out numbers here), I'd simply leave them be, and not waste precious calories on them.  Ranking is all relative, and as long as people keep things in perspective, then so be it.  

Unfortunately, a lot of such folks do not keep such things in perspective, try to compare ranks without doing some honest research, and when someone tries to compare apples to oranges, they step into an unpleasant pile of foul-smelling matter.  



> How many arts included extended their belt testing to make up for watered down teaching? I have a bias towards all of it; weak minds, weak wills and weak ideas...


 
I actually agree with you a lot on this matter.  While having more belts along the way can help those who have problems learning, and that at least they are given some encouragement, to have everyone go through a very large number of ranks would be the same as holding everyone back for no good reason other than to cash in on exam fees.


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## Dark (Jun 5, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> Ugh. I did a good bit of reading into John Keehan (aka Count Juan Raphael Dante) and the dojo wars. Very ugly situation, and I often times wonder how he went from being a level-headed, respectable sensei (and important figure in the USKA) to what he became.


 
       Actually the dojo brawling is common still in Asia, Bruce Lee went through it for teaching undesirables. Keehan had a habit of teaching anyone including bikrs, gang members and such. There is allot of trash between schools and styles we see it all over the net.
      It's just some people and some cultures believe if you are responsible for your actions. If you make a comment that can be considered a challenge or challenging to anothers views, don't be surprised when they want to take you up on it.


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## trueaspirer (Jun 5, 2006)

I agree that the art has gone out of ma. Everyone seems to think about its all about how to lay on the puches, period.  I think that there's more, that even if you dont totally agree with the policy, you still should understand that meditation, forms for the purpose of forms and things like that have a purpose.


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## Rook (Jun 5, 2006)

As long as we're on the subject of ethics, let me ask this: what makes you qualified as a martial arts teacher to impart your ethics onto other people?  

Before we get too far into this, that doesn't mean teaching anything to anyone or having no judgement at all.  However, I really question what, if anything, most martial arts teachers know about morality and ethics beyond what the general population does and why that should be a package deal with martial arts training.  

To draw a parrallel, you can get gun use courses from the police, who won't train felons and the like, but they don't teach you Christianity or Zen or esoteric Buddhism or Taoism or respect for your elders or to bow and kowtow to those with a fancier belt.  They will make a black-and-white judgement as to whether or not you are ALREADY in a state where they can teach you, and then they either will or won't.  They may make you aware of legal and, by extension, ethical restrictions as well as best practices, but they won't demand a reordering of your life.  

Now, at one point, many martial arts were strongly linked with religious groups and oriental philosophies (many Japanese arts were practiced in Shinto shrines, Chinese Buddhists launched much of the Chinese external arts and the internal arts often had Taoist overtones etc etc etc.)  However, most martial arts practitioners are not members of those religions, have their own ethical ideas already, and are IMO not in need of conversion.  Most martial arts teachers can impart only a buchered summary of Oriental movie lore - and for a student to be compelled to accept this is rather insulting.  

Even martial arts instructors who do have a genuine understanding of oriental philosophy, religion and ethical thought should question whether that is necessarily and inexerably tied to the physical techniques or is simply a cultural preferance that can be dispensed with.  

All the different types of martial arts have had ethical lapses throughout their history and I have serious doubts that martial arts instructors are any more moral than the general population let alone in a position to pontificate on the beliefs of others.


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## Dark (Jun 5, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> As long as we're on the subject of ethics, let me ask this: what makes you qualified as a martial arts teacher to impart your ethics onto other people?


 
There are certain universal rules of proper/moral/ethical/philosophical belief strucks. Teaching not to harm other is essentually universe, only the whys change. The greatest moral that one can teach is personal responsibility, if you do something wrong your responsibile. Simple...

As far as what makes me qualified to teach morals, nothing. But assuming a leadership role does put me into a position act morally or ethically. However, I don't set around preaching...


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## pstarr (Jun 5, 2006)

I agree with you, Dark.  Good response!


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 10, 2006)

I used to go in for all of that sort of thing too.

Thing to remember is younger people tend to be less experienced in life and therefore less sure of themselves( I was), and so generally more afraid of attack, be it physical, mental or otherwise, and may look to these more MMA/Combative/kata-less overtestosterated MA forms can give the "Young bucks" something to do and keep them tired out, and for them this "reality" based training can give them an end to feeling afraid.

But eventually, as youth gives way to age, as 30 becomes 40, 50, 60 (Hell, I notice a difference in my own body/attitudes even now as my 20s give way to my 30s!), full contact all the time becomes damaging when you don't heal as quick, and you WILL get bored with just a fighting aspect and there had better be something else there , philosophical, artful, or otherwise, to fill that void or you won't keep doing it.


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## Rook (Jun 10, 2006)

Andy Moynihan said:
			
		

> I used to go in for all of that sort of thing too.
> 
> Thing to remember is younger people tend to be less experienced in life and therefore less sure of themselves( I was), and so generally more afraid of attack, be it physical, mental or otherwise, and may look to these more MMA/Combative/kata-less overtestosterated MA forms can give the "Young bucks" something to do and keep them tired out, and for them this "reality" based training can give them an end to feeling afraid.
> 
> But eventually, as youth gives way to age, as 30 becomes 40, 50, 60 (Hell, I notice a difference in my own body/attitudes even now as my 20s give way to my 30s!), full contact all the time becomes damaging when you don't heal as quick, and you WILL get bored with just a fighting aspect and there had better be something else there , philosophical, artful, or otherwise, to fill that void or you won't keep doing it.


 
You know, thats probably true.  However, I see no reason why this must be a package deal with martial arts... there could always be a session where people sit around and yak about their half-made up conceptions of oriental philosophy at a time when physical training isn't going on; heck, I would even go to such a session just to see what everone is thinking.... I just don't think it needs to be mixed with the physical aspects.


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## Dark (Jun 11, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> You know, thats probably true. However, I see no reason why this must be a package deal with martial arts... there could always be a session where people sit around and yak about their half-made up conceptions of oriental philosophy at a time when physical training isn't going on; heck, I would even go to such a session just to see what everone is thinking.... I just don't think it needs to be mixed with the physical aspects.


 
The thing is what about Western philosophy, allot of the same concepts. The one thing about the "mystery of the Far East" is there is no longer a mystery. Everyone falls over Chinese Alchemy and the 5 element princples, that also shows up in Japanese MAs as well. Same principle existed in Wicca a few hundred years ago. So it was a universal principle. Jujitsu is much like Pakratan (sp?) and so on. Greek, Roman and even Native American philosophy is thus very similar. It falls into the it's all been done before catagory.


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## still learning (Jun 12, 2006)

Hello, This is just my opinion only!

The martial arts: The art is ....ART OF FIGHTING... nothing else.

If you do not know how to fight in your art?  ....than..what the "hell" are you training for?  ...this is not a dance? ....this is about fighting back,defend yourself,ending the confrontation, building good person,building confidence,strength.

The "ART" is learning the art of fighting.   If you are into a style...it is ok if you can fight back.

Remember...fighting is NO-rules,anything goes,anyone can jump-in,weapons of all kinds will be use,rocks-bottles,knives,clubs,rubbish cans and so on...it is fight back or die...there is no second chance in a real street fight.  Total chaos!

This is the art we are training for!  not a dance or for show!

Kill or be killed!  ......in the real world of fighting.  In the martial arts.we can be humble and kind to the attacker by not killing or breaking anything....the choice will be yours.

Soldiers in a war are train in the art of killing..but they can take prisoners...martial arts is the "ART OF FIGHTING"  ...nothing else...Aloha


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## Dark (Jun 12, 2006)

I completely agree but with added consideration, the philosophy aspect existed for one reason, even in western MAs and that is to temper the kiler instinct. Look at the guys who came back from Iraq and shot their wives. Post Tromatic Stress disorder, its is uppost to be a buffer for the violence and a safe guard of reasons not to kill the paper boy for hitting your car.


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## Rook (Jun 12, 2006)

Dark said:
			
		

> I completely agree but with added consideration, the philosophy aspect existed for one reason, even in western MAs and that is to temper the kiler instinct. Look at the guys who came back from Iraq and shot their wives. Post Tromatic Stress disorder, its is uppost to be a buffer for the violence and a safe guard of reasons not to kill the paper boy for hitting your car.


 
Not really.  Philosophical rambling come more in vogue after the need for fighting ability declines.  Martial philosophy was rather thin in the intense fighting eras of Japanese history, but bloomed spectatularly into what most people think of Eastern martial arts philosophy in the Tokugawa period, when military actions were non-existant and duels and the like were in general decline.  

The old warriors that had fought hard in Japan's wars and survived the duels for supremacy sometimes had philosophic thoughts because stress and bloody experiances tend to put life in perspective.  However, those personal reflections were enormously expanded by the less martial samurai of the Tokugawa-era peace, who eventually pursued personal development in a spiritual context in the place of fighting ability, realizing that it was unlikely their fighting skills would ever be needed.  It is striking that the rural, "backwards" and anti-philosophic Satsuma han produced many of the best samurai in Japan - they were training for war and working the land (the only major han to have landholding samurai in the Tokugawa period) rather than searching for inner peace or waxing philosophical.


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## Dark (Jun 12, 2006)

Philosophical ramblings are the first weapon of people who are scared. Its liking saying I could have beaten the bully but Id have seriously hurt him so I held back... 

The philosophy issue had nothing to do with a more or less martial outlook. Docturinely speaking it was about the same, the reason why so many samurai excelled was "trial by fire." A short direct philosophy and long-winded explaination of the same idea comes down to only one thing. The appearance of expertise, an expert doesn't have to prove something where as those wanting to appear as experts have long drawn out explainations.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 12, 2006)

Well, again, that's true, but I suppose it boils down to what you want out of your training as well. Certainly the combat effectiiveness must be there if what you are after is self defense capabilities. From my own experiences, after a certain age I became interested in something more beyond that and in my experiences the rwo aspects need not be mutually exclusive to work. That's the awesome thing about the whole martial arts community is that it's big and diverse enough that there really is something in there for everyone. :ultracool

Besides, If all's I could talk to people about was fighting I imagine I'd be a lot less interesting guy to talk to......


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## Dark (Jun 12, 2006)

Of course with the exception of cars, women, TV and stupid thing attempted while drunk there just much worth talking about... lol


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## Rook (Jun 12, 2006)

Andy Moynihan said:
			
		

> Well, again, that's true, but I suppose it boils down to what you want out of your training as well. Certainly the combat effectiiveness must be there if what you are after is self defense capabilities. From my own experiences, after a certain age I became interested in something more beyond that and in my experiences the rwo aspects need not be mutually exclusive to work. That's the awesome thing about the whole martial arts community is that it's big and diverse enough that there really is something in there for everyone. :ultracool
> 
> Besides, If all's I could talk to people about was fighting I imagine I'd be a lot less interesting guy to talk to......


 
Sure.  I always enjoy hearing about different perspectives and Oriental philosophy can be very interesting... its just not a substitute for actual fighting ability - its a topic of interest rather than an integral part of fight training.


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## Dark (Jun 12, 2006)

I always thought of it as a buffer, I'll skim over philosophy and ethics but I'm not giving a class on the Tao te Ching...


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## Explorer (Jun 12, 2006)

In the meantime, I believe it's a good thing to discuss the legal implications of overreaction ... when we become the aggressors.  I'm definately of the school of thought that says ..."Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."  HOWEVER, if a guy threatens to slap me silly but makes no move toward me and I break his arm and rupture his spleen, mess up his hair and start dating his wife ... I could be viewed as the aggressor; from both a legal and moral standpoint.  These discussions are essential in my view.  We don't do 'em every night but we do talk about them.  In fact some of that information is in our tests.

BTW -- what's wrong with giving them the Tao Te Qing?  I've recommended it to several students.  They mostly use it to hold down their desks or prop open doors ... but hey, they've got it!


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## Dark (Jun 12, 2006)

Explorer said:
			
		

> BTW -- what's wrong with giving them the Tao Te Qing? I've recommended it to several students. They mostly use it to hold down their desks or prop open doors ... but hey, they've got it!


 
I quote it sometimes, but I don't force it to be read.


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