# What Kobudo Weapon you like most



## TallAdam85 (May 24, 2003)

I like learing all the kobudo weapons I can ,but no matter what weapon I learn my fav is always Sai. I am not sure why maybe cause there cool to use or the forms are ok. But lets talk about which one is your fav and what are the reason please get back to me 
thanks:asian:


----------



## KenpoDragon (May 24, 2003)

My favorite has always been the Nunchaku. Reasons why, the speed, the beauty, the power, and the flash. No other single handed weapon is as fast or as intoxicating to look at. It is really cool though when you can use two at the same time, difficult at times but very intense. The best double "chuk" demo I've ever seen was in a movie called Sidekicks with Chuck Norris. The movie was kind of cheesy, but the weapons demos at the end were excellent. I was first attracted to the Nunchaku after watching Bruce Lee use them in Enter the Dragon, man was he GOOD. It's so hard to see everything that he was doing, even in slow motion. I've been using the Nunchaku for over a decade and still can't compare to his speed or skill level with them. Another good Nunchaku movie scene was in Game of Death, the uncut version with Dan Inosanto and Bruce going toe to toe with Nunchaku. Just my opinion though.

:asian: KenpoDragon


----------



## Isshin Dragon (May 26, 2003)

Yeah, I gotta go with the nunchaku also, i've been playing with those for about 15 years on and off, and now that I've gotten back into the martial arts I've picked them back up.  I agree with the reasons of why as stated above...the speed and flash and so on.  Oh yeah, and Michaelangelo from the ninja turtles used them.


----------



## ryansaunders (May 29, 2003)

I have to agree with TallAdam85 the sai daggers are my personal favorite to, even though i have learnt several other weapons, including escrima, jo, tonfa, kama and katana. I always keep coming back to them, my belive is that thier is a certain grace and style to them.


----------



## Akashiro Tamaya (Jun 3, 2003)

Hi Adam,

I'd say the Bo.   Its Simple to learn  and provides great workout upper body workout.


----------



## tonbo (Jun 3, 2003)

Do I have to pick just one?  

Sorry, can't do it.... .  I like the bo, the sai, and the nunchaku all quite a bit.  Haven't played much with the tonfa and the oar, though.....so I really can't say I favor them....uh....yet.  

Peace--


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Akashiro Tamaya _
> *Hi Adam,
> 
> I'd say the Bo.   Its Simple to learn  and provides great workout upper body workout. *





Simple to learn?
I guess that depends on which kata and which techniques you are learning.


----------



## tonbo (Jun 4, 2003)

> Simple to learn?



Sure!!  All the weapons are simple to learn!!!

Now, learning to use them *right*.......that's a different matter.....

 

:asian: 

Peace--


----------



## Akashiro Tamaya (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Simple to learn?
> I guess that depends on which kata and which techniques you are learning. *



Sorry Guys, I didn't mean simple as is easy for anyone to pick up and learn. 

I should have phrase it better. I term the word simple as in uncomplicated, something you can practice and perfect over and over, rather trying to figure it over and over. 

One of my favorite Bo kata is Suishinokon (sp?).  The moves are basic and it took me rather 4-5 days just to learn the fundamental movements.  Even now I still enjoy doing this kata.

I apologized in advance  to Tonbo, Ryushikan and everyone else, If my posting came off with an air of arrogance.

Ossu !  :asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Akashiro Tamaya _
> *Sorry Guys, I didn't mean simple as is easy for anyone to pick up and learn.
> 
> I should have phrase it better. I term the word simple as in uncomplicated, something you can practice and perfect over and over, rather trying to figure it over and over.
> ...




Not to knit-pick but it takes years to know a kata.
Sure you can learn the moves in a day or two.but to understand the application takes much longer.


----------



## chufeng (Jun 5, 2003)

RSK,

Can you shed any light on the use of Nunchaku or Oars in traditional kobudo?

:asian: 
chufeng


----------



## Akashiro Tamaya (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Not to knit-pick but it takes years to know a kata.
> Sure you can learn the moves in a day or two.but to understand the application takes much longer. *



You worded the quote better than I did. Thank you !


----------



## Jill666 (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *RSK,
> 
> Oars
> ...



Oars as in boat oars? That's a new one on me, guys- or is it something similar that evolved into a weapon?

Please enlighten. :asian: 

For practical uses I favor the bo, since you can always grab a stick. For flash and frustration value, the sai. Multiple striking uses, parry uses, cool look, harder to work with, bitching forearm workout.

I learned a bunch of bo forms in kenpo- now in ninjutsu am learning different, more in-depth usage of the bo. Now I have to go back and re-study my bo forms-

It never ends...

( BTW that's not a criticism of kenpo; just happens that my instructor in kenpo teaches the forms first, whereas my ninjutsu instructor teaches how to move with the weapon- no kata yet. )

Uh, what was the question?


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 5, 2003)

Here is an interesting article written by my "sempai" about weapons.

http://www.kushu.com/kobudo.htm


----------



## chufeng (Jun 5, 2003)

But I don't see Oar or Nunchaku in that article...???

Are those weapons and associated kata something that are more recent? Are they "modern additions" that some people want to call classical Kobudo? What's up???

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Sauzin (Jun 6, 2003)

That's a tough one, it comes to a close neck by neck race between the bo and the eku.  I'm going to have to say eku.  Why, well it's just plain fun, good work out, and the weight falling into your techniques that is behind the eku is something that's hard to get elsewhere.  I mean the nunte-bo has a similar feel but the weight isn't distributed the same.  In actual combat, once the eku becomes familiar it is surprisingly fast and effective.  

Don't get me wrong though, I love the bo.  Nothing feels like home, like a good grip on a bo.   Still I gotta go with the eku.

-Sauzin


----------



## Sauzin (Jun 6, 2003)

So I know I'm new here but let me give a shot at describing the oar or eku.

The eku traditionally is made out of red oak, stands just a bit shorter then a 6' bo.  The paddle has a rigged side and a curved side which is key to performing an eku kata correctly.  You've got to know which side is facing what at all times.  This is generally obtained through a good feel for the weapon and the grip.  The most common grip is with both hands palm down over the handle.  Most strikes and blocks are performed with almost a stroking motion as though you were paddling through water, though there are a great many other striking maneuvers.  Many eku kata contain a lot of step across motions often seen or described as kicking sand.  Many eku kata also contain a unique move called "flinging coal" where the paddle end is plunged downward and then kicked or levered back up.  The eku is a uniquely Okinawan weapon with many of it's origins from sea faring traders and fishermen.  The kata I am most familiar with is "Suken ackacho no eku de bo" (I'm sure I didn't spell it right, that is largely phonetic) but it refers to a guy who was known as a red haired pirate.  The actual design of the weapon can be largely accredited to Shureido and martial artists who worked closely with the shop.  Originally the eku was only about 4 ½ feet tall, but more recent versions are much larger and heavier.  

Everything I know about the eku comes from Seikichi Odo through Dean Stevens.

Let me know if there's anything else I can answer.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *But I don't see Oar or Nunchaku in that article...???
> 
> Are those weapons and associated kata something that are more recent? Are they "modern additions" that some people want to call classical Kobudo? What's up???
> ...


 '


The nunchaku and eku are old weapons, however, the nunchaku are often the most misunderstood weapon by modern MA people.
Contrary to popular myth they are not for flipping around aka "flying Ninja Squirrel" style. People that practice them that way are doing the "Bruce Lee" version and don't understand the actual use of the weapon. They are for trapping and gripping.  Knowing the original use for the "tool" is important to understand the MA application of the "weapon". They were NOT use as rice flails but as horse bridals. Anyone that doubts this should pay a visit to Mr. Hokoma's Okinawan MA museum in Okinawa were an extensive history of the weapon can be found


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 6, 2003)

eku


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 6, 2003)

nunchaku


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 6, 2003)

nunte bo


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 6, 2003)

chizikunbo


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 6, 2003)

manji sai


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 6, 2003)

sai


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 6, 2003)

tanbo


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 6, 2003)

kama


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 6, 2003)

surunchin


----------



## shoshiman (Jun 6, 2003)

HI everyone,

My favourite weapon is the one I am most frightened with as well.  It's the Kama with Strings attached to the ends.  I guess this weapon just commands R-E-S-P-E-C-T from me.  The Bo comes next and Sai and Tonfa comes in a tie for third.

Peace and Respect :asian: 

Shoshiman


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 6, 2003)

This is a partial list of the Kobudo Kata we practice:


Bo Kata
1Kihon (Basic)
2Sakugawa no Kun
3Sakugawa Nidansuku
4Sakugawa Sandansaku
5Sugi no Kun
6Tsukumino no Kun

Jo Kata
7Kihon (Basic)
8Tsukumino no Kun
9Sugi no Kun
10Sakugawa no Kun
11Sakugawa Nidansuku
12Sakugawa Sandansaku

Kama Kata
13Kihon (Basic)
14Kuzushi Sho
15Kuzushi Dai

Tan Bo Kata
16Kihon (Basic)
17Kuzushi Sho
18Kuzushi Dai

Nunchaku Kata
19Kihon (Basic)
20Jyu gata Nunchaku

Eku Kata
21Kihon Matsumura
22Matsumura Dai

Tonfa kata
23Kihon Sho
24Kihon Dai
25Kuzushi Sho
26Kuzushi Dai

Chinte Kata (weapon not empty hand)
27Kihon
28Chinte no Kata

Surichin Kata
29Kihon
30Surichin no Kata


Sai Kata
31Kihon
32Kunishi no Sai
33Uhugushiku no Sai

Manji Sai Kata
34Kihon
35Manji Sai no Kata

Chizi kun bo Kata 
36Kihon
37Chizi kun bo no Kata

Nunte Bo Kata
38Kihon
39Matsumura Sho
40Matsumura Dai


(basically we do about 40 kobudo kata)


----------



## chufeng (Jun 6, 2003)

RSK,

Thanks!

Of those listed, the Chizi kun bo are my favorite...but I have no kata for them, per se...Maybe you can share that with Yiliquan1 on his next visit to Japan.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## arnisador (Jun 6, 2003)

Forty! How many empty-hand kata do you have on top of that?

What are the typical lengths of the tanbo and surunchin?

I usually think of the Jo as Japanese rather than Okinawan and would use something like yonshakubo for a four-foot Okinawan weapon. Is this Okinawan Jo, or Japanese Jo that's been adopted into your system?


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Forty! How many empty-hand kata do you have on top of that? *



14 empty hand kata on top of the kobudo.

Naihanchi Shodan
Naihanchi Nidan
Naihanchi Sandan
Tomari Seisan
Pian Shodan
Pian Nidan
Pian Sandan
Pian Yondan
Pian Godan
Passai
Kusanku
Niseshi
Shiho Hapo No Te
Shiho Hapo Miyo No Te	




> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *What are the typical lengths of the tanbo and surunchin? *



The Tanbo are usually about 2 ½ feet long and the surichin is a six foot rope or chain with weighted ends.



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I usually think of the Jo as Japanese rather than Okinawan and would use something like yonshakubo for a four-foot Okinawan weapon. Is this Okinawan Jo, or Japanese Jo that's been adopted into your system? *



The Jo/Bo can be found in many fighting systems through out the world and is by no means strictly a Japanese weapon. The Jo we use is about 48 to 50 inches in length and tapering like a bo.  Sometimes a Jo has a reverse taper, being larger at both ends.  The Jo is normally manipulated with both hands; however, it is sometimes used with one hand.


----------



## arnisador (Jun 7, 2003)

Thanks! With the jo, I meant to say that I associate the term _jo_ with Japanese systems, whereas I associate the term _bo_ with both Japanese and Okinawan systems. So I guess my real question is: Was the word '_jo_' used in Okinawa too?

I think I recognize all the empty-hand kata, save these two:
Shiho Hapo No Te
Shiho Hapo Miyo No Te 

My "karate Japanese" gets shiho as Four-step (or four-direction) and "no te" as "with hands" but that's it. Am I failing to recognize them or are these less common forms?


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Thanks! With the jo, I meant to say that I associate the term jo with Japanese systems, whereas I associate the term bo with both Japanese and Okinawan systems. So I guess my real question is: Was the word 'jo' used in Okinawa too? *



There are many Okinawan styles that use the Jo and yes they use the word Jo in Okinawa.




> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I think I recognize all the empty-hand kata, save these two:
> Shiho Hapo No Te
> Shiho Hapo Miyo No Te*



These two kata are very rare and were taught by Mr. Wakinaguri who was a descendent of the "36 Chinese families" that were sent to Okinawa from China as envoys. He taught Taika Oyata theory about the body and how to study and develop technique. He was an expert in the art of kyusho jutsu. 



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *My "karate Japanese" gets shiho as Four-step (or four-direction) and "no te" as "with hands" but that's it. Am I failing to recognize them or are these less common forms? *



The name doesnt translate as 4 steps or 4 directions. I wont go into the meaning of the names in public.........sorrylong story.
Suffice it to say they have a more complex deeper meaning and much of my teachers fighting theory and application comes from these kata.


----------



## arnisador (Jun 7, 2003)

Interesting stuff. I don't know that I'd have the capacity to memorize 50-some forms!


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 20, 2003)

For weapons, I like Sai the best. I find they most closely mimic empty hand, and with the weight, I feel like I am developing my upper body further. 

But the aspect of kobudo I really like is using  empty hand techniques against the bo. Empty hand kata are filled with bo disarming techniques that are really fascinating to me.


----------



## TallAdam85 (Jul 5, 2003)

glad to see how many replys i got on this. 
Hope i get more


----------



## progressivetactics (Jul 5, 2003)

adam, as you know I like the Modern arnis cane the best.....i thknk that is the most practical weapon out there... for traditional kobudo.....i have always been a fan of the kama......bo second.


----------



## TallAdam85 (Jul 9, 2003)

good to see all these great replys:asian:


----------



## Shuri-te (Jul 9, 2003)

Arnisador:

You seemed surprised at the 40 weapons kata practiced in a RyuTe dojo. 

If you think that is alot, check out this system:
http://shidokan.dimentech.com/kata.html

There are 40 bo kata alone, not to mention about 20 sai kata and 10 tonfa kata, and it goes on from there. 

I don't mean to imply any criticism at this approach, but I know that for me, trying to learn so many kata would merely mean that I would do them all badly, and would not be able to be effective at many of the movements.


----------



## IsshinryuKarateGirl (Jul 16, 2003)

My favorite weapon would have to be the naginata.  Even though it's not a weapon I learn in my dojo, I would love to learn how to use it.  It's just a really great weapon....

But, my favorite weapon that I have used is bo.  I feel that bo is the weapon that I wield the best.  I also like the fact you don't have to be right up in your opponent's face to attack.  I also like the boken and/or katana.  They're also really cool to work with.

:samurai:


----------



## arnisador (Jul 16, 2003)

The naginata does indeed look interesting! All the more so because there's a sport askect too (like kendo and jukendo). Seminars in it frequently occur just barely outside my driving range (in Penn.).


----------



## stickarts (Jul 16, 2003)

I enjoy the bo since i seem to pick it up quickly and it seems more practical than some weapons. however, i love flipping aroud the nunchucks too!


----------



## ajholmes (Jul 16, 2003)

My favorite is the tonfa!  I like how you can perform so many empty-hand techniques with the tonfa, and it gives a great workout on your forearms.  So simplistic, yet devilishly difficult to perfect those little details!

Cheers!


----------



## TallAdam85 (Jul 17, 2003)

See I am not a big fan of the bo it just is kinda an easy weapon just move your hand a little and it looks power but it is easy plus every uses  the bo so I Feel it is kind over used 
what you think


just let me know how u feel


----------



## Sauzin (Jul 22, 2003)

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you.  Now if you're talking about guys who look like they came straight out of a marching band swinging batons, then I do agree.  The bo is not made to be a juggling or twirling instrument and is used this way far too commonly.  But a majority of the kobudo practitioners out there know this and for these people, the bo offers a huge array of possibilities and levels of mastery.

I would say that correct use of the bo is no easier then any other weapon.  Now sure anyone can pick up a bo and generally follow a long, so the beginners learning curve is not quite so steep as other weapons.  But when you start talking about doing things right and not injuring yourself then it's no different than anything else.

The bo is a unique tool for understanding hip timing and position.   The neat thing about the bo is that it naturally moves with the position of the hip.  So if your hip is turned to the wrong position the bo will reflect this.  It's like a big compass for which way your hip is pointing.  

True power with the bo is not so easily obtained.  Now I'm talking a thick hardwood 6' bo here.  Not one of those toothpick things.  And I'm not talking about "oh look I can make a 'woooshe' noise" power either.  I'm talking about, "swing the bo so hard it snaps in mid air" power.  Now this kind of power takes technique, and practice, lots of practice.  It has nothing to do with how strong you are.  And then there's controlling the bo with precision at this velocity.  I mean the kind of precision where you could slip 2/3 of the bo through a 4 inch hole and back out without touching the sides precision.  A guy who knows what he's doing practices this precision in all movements and strives for consistency.  Now if you can do all this and call it "easy", then there must not be much in the martial arts that is capable of challenging you, because you can take the same principles and use them to grapple, strike, throw, and evade your opponent.  Really the basic principles of the bo apply not only to most all weapons, but they apply to empty hand technique as well.  I mean if you can move a bo like that, what makes an opponents arm, leg, or body any different then that bo?  Not much.  

I apologize about sounding a bit passionate but the bo is at the very least tied for first in the list of my favorite kobudo weapons.  The eku is just plain too much fun though.

-Paul Holsinger


----------



## IsshinryuKarateGirl (Jul 26, 2003)

Oh my god!  I can't believe how many weapons kata there are in some dojos.  We have some, but definately not that many.  I just couldn't remember them all.  Right now, I'm working on about 3-4 katas and I'm confused a little.  I could only imagine if I had to learn all those katas...it'd take me forever!

:btg: :jediduel:


----------



## Sandifer (Jul 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Akashiro Tamaya _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Sandifer (Jul 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sauzin _
> *So I know I'm new here but let me give a shot at describing the oar or eku.
> 
> snip...
> ...


----------



## Shinzu (Aug 4, 2003)

i would have to say the nunchaku also.  it has been my favorite from when i first started karate.  i am fond of the staff also


----------



## Sauzin (Aug 4, 2003)

Hello Sandifer,

Thank-you for the spelling correction.  

Tsuken Aka Chu no iyeku de is also the only iyeku kata that Odo taught, which is currently why it is the only one I practice.  This is also why I know the palms down grip as the most common grip for this weapon.  I have run through (though not committed to memory) 2 other iyeku kata that my sensei practices and you are correct, the palms down grip is much less common in these (less rowing), though it does exist.  I would certainly say that the grip is far more common overall in usage with the iyeku then with the bo.   I mean it's an oar, how else are you to row?   

I will ask for more origin details of my sensei, Dean Stevens.  He is very meticulous about kata origin.  I heard it was very old as well.  

Thank-you for the additional information and the critique.
:asian: 

-Paul Holsinger


----------



## Sandifer (Aug 4, 2003)

I believe it is actually used more as I rudder then in a rowing fashion in the water. 

Any further information would be great.

I practice a lot with the oar and bo. One oar kata I work alot is called Itomen Kawa no Eku (Itomen=town, Kawa=river area). The other which I am refreshing is Shorinkan no Eku. A kata devised by Shigeru Nakazato of the Kobayashi Shorin Ryu branch I believe. This particular kata utilizes some double palm down rowing type movements at the beginning of the kata and several Gyaku (tail) chudan uke/kamae.

Bo however is my most familiar weapon. (Though I like eku more). The bo has a flow to it that the Eku by nature just cannot compete with in my opinion. I have a couple excelent bo vs. eku and sword vs Eku yakusoku that are a blast when two people know them well. Great for demos.


----------



## Sauzin (Aug 5, 2003)

> I believe it is actually used more as I rudder then in a rowing fashion in the water.



Uh, I'm not sure about that one.  It would be difficult to explain the ridged side vs the curved side if that were the case.  A rudder would need to be omni directional, however the eku is designed to row and cut water in one direction.  

Anyway, I'm sure there have been design changes as it has been applied to martial arts.  I know for a fact that the original Shureido Eku was only about 4 feet tall and looked a lot different.  But that was about 30 years ago or so.  Still it too had a ridged side and a curved side.  

I would be interested to see your eku vs bo and sword routines.  Do you have any pictures?  

We'll have to wait till Friday for further info on Tsuken.  I won't see my Sensei 'till then.

Thanks again,

-Paul Holsinger


----------



## gojukylie (Aug 10, 2003)

I love the Bo and the Sai. I cannot single one of them out. I tell you what though, the Bo will work your arms, shoulders & abs just nicely. Good fun.


----------



## Sandifer (Aug 10, 2003)

One of my Kohai is a wood worker. He has been developing his skills as a wooden weapon smith as an aside for other students. He suggested somethng about the design of the eku as he just made his second one. His suggestion being that he thought the eku as we have always seen and relate to them are made to represent one in a worn condition. So that over time it would go from having two beveled sides to one being rounded one being beveled if the fisherman of old Okinawa favored the use of one side for certain things.

I've been rethinking about the idea of the Ieku being used primarily as a rudder and that wouldn't make sense unless one were always going down stream on a river. It does make more sense that the Ieku would be used for locomotion more than steering. However, the rounded side may have developed from the coarsing of sea water when applying directional resistance inorder to guide or slow a boat. Over time the ieku would naturally round like an agate.

One thing though is that it seems to me that the oar is a bit narrow to be used as a paddle mainly. Any suggestions about that?

Sandifer M. Deer

ps. Sauzin PM me if you would like printed copy of the eku tai sword yakusoku. The eku tai bo I'll have to type up. Unfortunately I don't have pictures.


----------

