# Kids And The Martial Arts



## MJS (Mar 8, 2007)

In another thread in the General MA section, a thread was started on what type of MA program is best for a child.  Seeing that kids make up a big portion of schools, I thought I'd start this thread to discuss the material that is taught.

Now, there is always a possibility that a child could be attacked by another child.  The possibility is also there for them to be abducted by an adult.  The arts teach a wide variety of techniques, kicks, blocks and strikes.  

During my time teaching, I've had people comment to me on some of the things that were taught, such as a kick to the groin or a rake to the eyes.  Some would say that they didn't feel their child would be able to bring themselves to do something like that, and others felt that it was just way too violent.  Valid concerns on their behalf?  Of course.  However, I just can't see a small child pulling off a wrist lock on an adult.  I would do my best to explain this to the parents, stating that depending on the circumstances, a move that appears violent, may be the childs only option.

So...that brings me to the point of this discussion.  What do you feel are the best tools for a child to use?  As always, having them do their best to escape is important, and stressing to them to use their training as a last resort.  I'm sure the last thing a parent wants, is a call from the school or the Police, saying that their child gouged the eyes of a classmate because they cut in front of them in the lunch line.

Mike


----------



## fnorfurfoot (Mar 8, 2007)

Here are some random things that I go over with my younger students.

1.  If they are being grabbed by an adult, we work on yelling that the person is not their parent.  Frantically yelling NO NO NO could be misinterpreted as a disobedient child by other adults.

2.  I don't teach kicks to the groin to my younger students.  Any technique that involves a strike to the groin is turned into a shot to the stomach.  This is basically for me.  I don't have time for them to be giggling for ten minutes each time I show them a groin strike.

3.  The best targets a child has against an adult are pokes to the eyes and palms to the ears.  They might not be able to cause tons of pain, but it could be enough for the child to have time to run away to get help.

Sorry if I misspelled anything.


----------



## CoryKS (Mar 8, 2007)

Good thread!  My seven-year-old boy and I study kenpo so yeah, he's learning eye gouges, groin strikes, the works.  His teacher frequently reminds the class that these techniques are _never _for fights with classmates or anything other than real danger.

That said, I was wrestling around with him one day and grabbed him in a bearhug from the front, arms pinned.  I felt a sudden pain in the groin, and as I looked down he brought his forearm around to the side of my head.  Not hard - just to let me know he _could_ have done it.    I don't know about wrist locks, but other techniques are possible against an adult, especially if the adult isn't expecting it.

I think as you said, the best primary tools are escape and finding adult intervention.  Sparring for the schoolyard fights which cannot be avoided, and, depending on the child's demonstrated ability to use good judgement, the more violent tactics in case of adult attack.  With frequent reminders of when it's okay to use them.


----------



## MJS (Mar 8, 2007)

fnorfurfoot said:


> Here are some random things that I go over with my younger students.
> 
> 1. If they are being grabbed by an adult, we work on yelling that the person is not their parent. Frantically yelling NO NO NO could be misinterpreted as a disobedient child by other adults.


 
Great idea!



> 2. I don't teach kicks to the groin to my younger students. Any technique that involves a strike to the groin is turned into a shot to the stomach. This is basically for me. I don't have time for them to be giggling for ten minutes each time I show them a groin strike.


 
LOL, yeah, I know what you mean.  It took me a few to get their attention back after all the laughing.



> 3. The best targets a child has against an adult are pokes to the eyes and palms to the ears. They might not be able to cause tons of pain, but it could be enough for the child to have time to run away to get help.


 
I agree!  It may not put them on the ground, but it just might buy them time to escape.

Mike


----------



## Drac (Mar 8, 2007)

fnorfurfoot said:


> Here are some random things that I go over with my younger students.
> 
> 1. If they are being grabbed by an adult, we work on yelling that the person is not their parent. Frantically yelling NO NO NO could be misinterpreted as a disobedient child by other adults.
> 
> ...


 
Great post..


----------



## MJS (Mar 8, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> Good thread! My seven-year-old boy and I study kenpo so yeah, he's learning eye gouges, groin strikes, the works. His teacher frequently reminds the class that these techniques are _never _for fights with classmates or anything other than real danger.
> 
> That said, I was wrestling around with him one day and grabbed him in a bearhug from the front, arms pinned. I felt a sudden pain in the groin, and as I looked down he brought his forearm around to the side of my head. Not hard - just to let me know he _could_ have done it.  I don't know about wrist locks, but other techniques are possible against an adult, especially if the adult isn't expecting it.
> 
> I think as you said, the best primary tools are escape and finding adult intervention. Sparring for the schoolyard fights which cannot be avoided, and, depending on the child's demonstrated ability to use good judgement, the more violent tactics in case of adult attack. With frequent reminders of when it's okay to use them.


 
Ahh...one of the many things I love about Kenpo!!:ultracool   Yes, thats the best we can do...constantly re-enforce when and when not to use certain things.  I think, in my case, the biggest problem was that the parents really didn't have that clear of an idea as to what the arts are all about.  Some tend to forget that if they're sending their child there for SD, contact and all those 'dirty tactics' are all part of the game.  If it was a matter of a child striking the eye or being abducted, I'd want them to go for the eye every time.

Mike


----------



## Blindside (Mar 8, 2007)

I teach kids to bite, (on top of screaming for help and eye/groin)and this might be controversial but it is one of the few tools kids have that can truly inflict pain.  I was teaching an afterschool program in Seattle and I had one of the parents ask me why I would suggest such a thing.  After I explained it to her, she and a couple of the other moms were saying "maybe we should enroll," (it was a program for 3-6th grade).  

Lamont

PS: We have zero problems teaching groin strikes, it is simply part of what we do.  You might get some giggles, but no more than if you do something else funny as part of training.


----------



## gixxershane (Mar 8, 2007)

all great replies.. i would and do teach the groin strikes. i do have to say that thier voice is probably their most powerfull weapon that they have as far as drawing attention... i like the idea of telling them about the ears and eyes in a real situation against an adult. i also teach throat shots because it dosnt take much to inflict pain their..
also dont forget the shin kicks and foot stomps they could also be usefull tools.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 8, 2007)

I think the only problem with groin strikes is maybe that the attacker is expecting them? I hear a lot of non MA people say 'well I'd kick/hit him where it hurts', I think most men tend to protect themselves especially if they have the intent to attack or abduct someone. I have no problem teacjing groin strikes though, it's just another target. ( Ok so I'm female which may colour my thinking!)


----------



## MJS (Mar 8, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I think the only problem with groin strikes is maybe that the attacker is expecting them? I hear a lot of non MA people say 'well I'd kick/hit him where it hurts', I think most men tend to protect themselves especially if they have the intent to attack or abduct someone. I have no problem teacjing groin strikes though, it's just another target. ( Ok so I'm female which may colour my thinking!)


 
Yes, that is a possibility.  So, I don't know if you instruct kids at all, but I'm interested in how you base your program for them.

Mike


----------



## MJS (Mar 8, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Can you point me to some stats that show it is less so. All of the ones I have ever seen show that things are a lot safer now.
> 
> It's odd, the areas that the kids still have that freedom are the areas that most parents wouldn't let there kids even visit without a 2 man security force...
> 
> I think it's rather sad that kids no longer have freedom, and I worry how that will effect this generation when they reach adulthood and where never able to explore the neighbouhood and play in the park unsupervised growing up.


 
:-offtopic  And what exactly does this have to do with the thread topic??


----------



## kidswarrior (Mar 8, 2007)

MJS said:


> Again, I didn't start this thread to talk about stats. I want to hear about the best tools to use....
> Mike


 
Good point. Good topic. I added a very few techniques to the discussion, but teaching kids this young is still very new to me (only a couple of months, and even that was by accident ), so I'm still learning. But I like the good, comprehensive response by jks9199:



> _The scope and methodology of teaching should change as the kids age -- but it should be part of the program from the earliest steps. (Kindergarden might be simply yelling "stop -- you're not my daddy" while HS should include effective defenses against grabs, etc.)_
> 
> _That said -- the first thing I focus on with young students is being aware of the environment, and then saying "NO" or "STOP" to an adult. Many of them CAN'T do so without practice, and encouragement. Then, I teach simple targets selected for maximum effect -- eyes, groin, knees & throat, along with simple, but effective, methods for breaking grabs. As important as teaching the how, though, is to teach the WHEN. When to initiate it (as soon as possible!), and what situations to use it in. And all of it is followed up with constant reinforcement of getting ADULT help._


 
And Shaderon: 





> _P.S. I LOVE the biting one_!


 Me too! I have a kindergarten girl in one class (what was I _thinking_?!), and this may be her best shot at escape. She won't be able to reach many of the tagets older kids can, at least not with enough power to be effective.

So, I'm learning from this thread, and am looking for further techniques form the 'vets'.


----------



## Carol (Mar 8, 2007)

Moderator Note:

Attention all users, please return to the original topic of discussion focusing on what tools a child has to defend themselves.

Thanks,

- Carol Kaur - 
- MT Moderator -


----------



## CoryKS (Mar 8, 2007)

Shaderon said:


> I am loving this discussion, but like MJS said, it's not the topic here, the topic here is what we teach the kids.
> 
> Can the thread be split if we're going to continue? Is that an option?


 
Since we're speaking in the context of martial arts, and not self-defense in general, I won't repeat the points about awareness, parental involvement, etc., and stick to what's left.  Assume that if it's a MA-related situation, all the other things have failed and what you have is a physical confrontation.  What you have are, as MJS pointed out in the original post, schoolyard fights and attacks by adults.

IMO, you give them the tools to handle both.  So you give them the nasty attacks - groin, eyes, throat - with explicit rules on when to use them.  And then you give them the basics - punches, kicks, evasion - they need to defend themselves in schoolyard settings without causing serious damage.  Again, with explicit rules on when to use them.  Defense only; hitting another child because he cut in front of you in the lunch line doesn't qualify.


----------



## Lisa (Mar 8, 2007)

Moderator Note:

Several posts regarding Statistics have been split from this thread and can be found here.

Lisa Deneka
MT Assist. Admin.


----------



## Kacey (Mar 8, 2007)

I teach kids to yell "not my parent", "fire", "call 911", and similar things.  I also teach awareness, and talk through situations they should avoid, situations they may find themselves in, and how to get out of them.  For example, if someone who makes you nervous is following you, and you can't get away, approach another adult (especially one with kids) - because you are likely safer with an adult _you_ approach than one who approaches you.  I teach them to go to stores, fire or police stations, bus stops, or anywhere else they can find other people.  I teach them to avoid closed in areas like alleys, and to avoid short-cuts through dangerous areas (including what dangerous areas are).  I teach them to not follow strangers who ask them for help finding a street, a lost pet, etc. - and especially not to get into cars with strangers.  I teach kids and their parents about having family passwords.  

Most importantly, I think, I teach them to *NOT STOP FIGHTING BACK*.  I can't find the article right now, but there was a girl who was abducted a few months back and shoved into the back seat of a pickup truck; she continued to fight, bite, grab, pinch any part of her abductor she could reach... several hundred yards down the road he released her, scared stiff but physically unharmed.

I also teach kids the importance of _knowing_ their parents' phone numbers and _complete _address(es) (including city, state and zip code), rather than relying on having them programmed into cell phones or other electronic devices which could be taken away.  I teach them that you can call 911 on a pay phone even without money.

All of this is in addition to the regular curriculum of my TKD class - and I teach most of it to the adults, as well; the only real difference is that adults are more likely to know phone numbers and addresses, and have some different tools for fighting back; also, when talking through possible scenarios in which they may need to defend themselves, there are a set of scenarios for adults that never come up for kids, mostly involving leaving bars, clubs, restaurants or other places late at night, and the additional dangers that can cause.


----------



## Shaderon (Mar 8, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> Since we're speaking in the context of martial arts, and not self-defense in general, I won't repeat the points about awareness, parental involvement, etc., and stick to what's left. Assume that if it's a MA-related situation, all the other things have failed and what you have is a physical confrontation. What you have are, as MJS pointed out in the original post, schoolyard fights and attacks by adults.
> 
> IMO, you give them the tools to handle both. So you give them the nasty attacks - groin, eyes, throat - with explicit rules on when to use them. And then you give them the basics - punches, kicks, evasion - they need to defend themselves in schoolyard settings without causing serious damage. Again, with explicit rules on when to use them. Defense only; hitting another child because he cut in front of you in the lunch line doesn't qualify.


 

Yes I think the rules on when to use them are just as important, and with some children even more important than the techniques themselves.  Kids can so easily get caught up on a power trip showing each other what they can do and could very easily hurt each other, and maybe even turn into a bully.  

I've just been having a discussion with my daughter over what to do if someone grabbed her in a shop and a very good point came up, in our scenario she wanted to kick the man in his family jewels (she's a charmer) but her leg wouldn't come up that high with any force, in the opinion of you guys, if the child wanted to kick as mine does, what's the best place to kick a big strong man by a kid?   in the knees?  in the ankles? or indeed in the "family jewels"?    Or should  tell her to stomp on his toes and scream "you aren't my dad leave me alone"?


----------



## kidswarrior (Mar 8, 2007)

Shaderon said:


> I've just been having a discussion with my daughter over what to do if someone grabbed her in a shop and a very good point came up, in our scenario she wanted to kick the man in his family jewels (she's a charmer) but her leg wouldn't come up that high with any force, in the opinion of you guys, if the child wanted to kick as mine does, what's the best place to kick a big strong man by a kid? in the knees? in the ankles? or indeed in the "family jewels"? Or should tell her to stomp on his toes and scream "you aren't my dad leave me alone"?


 
Any of that would be OK, but a good soccer kick (inside blade kick) to the shin can really be nice, especially if she can repeat it to the exact same spot a second time. Even though a quick toe kick to the shin is stronger and faster (and two in a row will topple most grown men--I have a bruise that's three years old from practicing this with a friend who repeated it to be sure I got the point :uhyeah, a soccer style kick is surer to land because of the broader possible striking surface (edge of foot vs. toe). And if the kick can be followed with 'scraping the bacon', as in scraping your foot along his shin from the point of the kick all the way down to his foot, the child is in pretty good shape for about 7-10 seconds. Hopefully enough to get away/summon help.


----------



## kidswarrior (Mar 8, 2007)

Kacey said:


> I teach kids to yell "not my parent", "fire", "call 911", and similar things. I also teach awareness, and talk through situations they should avoid, situations they may find themselves in, and how to get out of them. For example, if someone who makes you nervous is following you, and you can't get away, approach another adult (especially one with kids) - because you are likely safer with an adult _you_ approach than one who approaches you. I teach them to go to stores, fire or police stations, bus stops, or anywhere else they can find other people. I teach them to avoid closed in areas like alleys, and to avoid short-cuts through dangerous areas (including what dangerous areas are). I teach them to not follow strangers who ask them for help finding a street, a lost pet, etc. - and especially not to get into cars with strangers. I teach kids and their parents about having family passwords.
> 
> Most importantly, I think, I teach them to *NOT STOP FIGHTING BACK*. I can't find the article right now, but there was a girl who was abducted a few months back and shoved into the back seat of a pickup truck; she continued to fight, bite, grab, pinch any part of her abductor she could reach... several hundred yards down the road he released her, scared stiff but physically unharmed.
> 
> ...


 
Great stuff, Kacey! :ultracool


----------



## kidswarrior (Mar 8, 2007)

MJS said:


> Yes, that is a possibility. So, I don't know if you instruct kids at all, but I'm interested in how you base your program for them.
> 
> Mike


 
Hey Mike,

Great topic, and very timely for me as I just got some younger students. Is our purpose in the thread to kind of catalogue a list of techniques that we use/think would work, or are you also asking us about the overall program(s) we use with the little ones?  

Thanks,
Mark


----------



## flashlock (Mar 8, 2007)

A month back I saw a program of a self-defense teacher that specialized in teaching children.  They were mainly taught to go crazy screaming, biting, scratching, kicking--in and outside a car.  They were taught to attack the driver from a backseat and to run, screaming.  The little girl demonstrating these techniques went ballistic--I thought it was a smart thing to teach.


----------



## jdinca (Mar 8, 2007)

We teach kids a lot of the same techniques we teach to adults. We also modify a number of techniques for children and we also have techniques designed just for the child being attacked by an adult. As was mentioned earlier, ear slaps, kicks/strikes to the groin are all incorporated. Another difference is that we teach the "cat, cover, cat" finish to adults but for the kids, we teach them to run away as fast as they can. 

A fun little story. A student who has small children was telling me about working with his daughter (also a student) on the self defense techniques that were developed for the upcoming student tournament. One of them starts with blocking a two arm attempted grab, followed by several body strikes. Well...his daughter did the block and then promptly kicked him right in the crotch, dropping dad to the ground, and ran away. I went over to her, gave her a big smile and a high five and said "that was great, you did just what you're supposed to do!". Her whole face lit up. I don't think she'll have a problem using that on anybody who comes after her.


----------



## foggymorning162 (Mar 8, 2007)

flashlock said:


> A month back I saw a program of a self-defense teacher that specialized in teaching children. They were mainly taught to go crazy screaming, biting, scratching, kicking--in and outside a car. They were taught to attack the driver from a backseat and to run, screaming. The little girl demonstrating these techniques went ballistic--I thought it was a smart thing to teach.


I just saw a news story about a 6yr old girl that was in a car when it was car jacked she beat the driver with her book bag until he stopped the car.


----------



## zDom (Mar 9, 2007)

While wrist LOCKS might not be useable for a child, you can and should teach them WRIST ESCAPES.

By lining up the bone edge with the place where the thumb and fingers meet and pulling against this gap area, you can escape from the grip of a significantly stronger person, especially when combined with a movement that puts the body weight behind the escape manuever and by pulling on the grabbed arm with the the free hand.


----------



## kidswarrior (Mar 9, 2007)

zDom said:


> While wrist LOCKS might not be useable for a child, you can and should teach them WRIST ESCAPES.
> 
> By lining up the bone edge with the place where the thumb and fingers meet and pulling against this gap area, you can escape from the grip of a significantly stronger person, especially when combined with a movement that puts the body weight behind the escape manuever and by pulling on the grabbed arm with the the free hand.


 
Yes, good reminder zDom. Very different skill sets for very different purposes (one primarily offensive, one purely defensive).


----------



## Shaderon (Mar 9, 2007)

zDomn I agree, wrist escapes are very useful and I shall make sure mine learns these too!   If the boss doesn't teach her, I certainly will


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Mar 9, 2007)

we have three physical foci in our school.

1.  self defense against adults (i.e. abduction resistance).  we don't teach many attacks against and adule -- they simply aren't effective.  even a well-placed groin kick or eye poke isn't going to help an 8 year old against a 30 year old man.  much as i wish it wasn't so.

instead, we use tom patire's system.  yell like bloody murder and grab hold of something heavy, awkward or stationary.  we teach specific hand and ankle locks so the child is inextricably linked with a swingset, tree, bicycle, other kid, street sign and making as much noise as possible.  like previously mentioned, we train them to memorize a specific phrase calculated to get adult attention and aid.

2.  self defense against other kids (i.e. bullies).  here we focus on using the mouth and the brain first, including lots of escape and evasion techniques.  for actual fighting techniques, we focus on stuff that will get the bully's attention without causing any real injury.  stuff like a thumb jab into the midsection, or a knee strike to the thigh, or a _hard_ inward block to the bicep.

3.  personal development through rigorous training.  forms, exercise, demanding moves or stances.  shield work.  breaking.  all with the focus being on how this helps you build power over yourself, rather than on how this is used to demonstrate or obtain power over somebody else.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2007)

MJS said:


> Yes, that is a possibility. So, I don't know if you instruct kids at all, but I'm interested in how you base your program for them.
> 
> Mike


 
www.shotaikai.co.uk has our martial arts programme on but the self defence techniques we teach are basically what people have already posted up, like shouting things to indicate that it's not the childs parents etc.For children we feel 'distraction' techniques work best to give them the chance to run away. Things like sliding the side of your foot down a shin, with kidswarrior there ouch! stamping on the foot is good (fighters use it in MMA) biting good (also it leaves a definitive pattern which can be matched by police)grabbing fingers and bending them back, biting. The main thing I think whether you are teaching people to fight in comp or for self defence is not to freeze, to keep the presence of mind to do something. the children themselves are good at co,ing up with things that they can and can't do physically, gets them thinking. They are also good at coming up with when and when not to use things, much better than just telling them.


----------



## still learning (Mar 11, 2007)

Hello, Great post and good stuffs for kids to learn!

Yes: Teach them to always FIGHT BACK...AND TRY TO ESCAPE...never give up!

Tarket: Most of you agree...groin,eyes,ears,biting,shins,shouting NOT MY DADDY/MOMMY. not sure aouut this..throat? um....using anything around you for striking weapons.

If possible to grab the steering wheel and crash the vehicle..especially in a place with people maybe around (we teach this to older kids/women/kidnappings....)

Our laws are not tough and preditors are NEVER CURE ..from jail time....

............Aloha


----------

