# Beginner Receiving Constant Varying Feedback from Different Students



## jurat13 (May 15, 2008)

Everyone,

I ask for your thoughts on two issues that I am facing as a new student in an Aikido class. NOTE: Please feel free to give me your honest, thorough opinion. Even if you believe I may disagree with it, or someone else may deem it to be a harsh response, etc.

I recently began my Aikido studies about a month ago. Thus far, I enjoy learning Aikido. I especially enjoy the Dan level instructors (Yondan, Nidan, Shodan). They have been positive, corrective, etc. I come from a boxing and muay thai background, and wanted to compliment those skills with joint control, locks, leverage, etc.

However, what has frustrated me about my Aikido instruction is the constant varying feedback that I receive from other students.

Here's the scenario, let's say during a particular class session you have participating: a Dan level instructor, myself, and 9 other students of various ranks (all of which are ranked higher than me because I'm new). 

Dan level instructor demonstrates technique "A" which he wants the class to began working on. He then asks us to break into groups to practice technique A. 

Student 1 and I began practicing technique A. Student 1 explains to me the correct way to execute technique A and we continue to practice.

Dan level instructor stops our group work, and draws to our attention any flaws that he sees in the groups' practicing of technique A. He then directs us back into our groups and asks us to rotate to other partners.

Now I am working with Student 2. Student 2 tells me that my execution of technique A is incorrect. I tell him that Student 1 taught me. He says that student 1 is wrong.

We rotate again, now I am working with Student 3. Student 3 says that both Students 1 and 2 execution are wrong and that I should learn it the Student 3 way.

Rotate to Student 4, he agrees with the way Student 1 executed technique A.

Student 5 disagrees with Student 4..., Student 6 agrees, Students 7, 8, and 9, and so on so forth.

As a result of these variations of technique A, I am becoming confused. Each student constantly corrects me with "the right way" to execute technique A. Meanwhile, none of these students consider the fact I am receiving conflicting corrections from other students.

Just this past Tuesday, the Yondan was instructing class, and instructed me to execute technique "B" in a particular fashion. As soon as I broke into a group, the student told me that the way I was executing technique B was incorrect. I told him that the Yondan had just instructed me to execute it that way. The student proceeded to say, "I would still do it the way that I am teaching you, if he corrects you, then I guess you can change it."

To me that's unbelievable.

On another unrelated issue. The dojo is hosting a seminar by a highly ranked instructor from out of town. The instructors want students to do a thorough cleaning of the dojo on the weekend before the seminar begins. However, the cleaning shall be completed at the sacrifice of training. I was under the impression that we would still hold a morning practice, and then everyone pitches in and does a thorough cleaning after that. But the actual plan is to cancel class all together.

I understand the concept of community/communal help, etc. But now it is coming at the expense of instruction that I am paying for. I am paying for the seminar, and I also pay a monthly fee for instruction. In other words this is still a business transaction. I am paying for a service, and expect to receive value in return. 

What are your thoughts? Again please feel free to give me your honest opinion.

Respectfully submitted,

Confused Newbie


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## CuongNhuka (May 15, 2008)

If I had a problem with a student (note, student) telling me differently then the instructor (note, instructor), I would say "well, lets be safe, and get Sensei's oppion on this." followed by calling them over and asking them what they think. However, a student is probably not going to have nearly the same understanding of a technique that a Yondan has. It also might be changed by your style of Aikido. In Ki-nokenkyukai (sp) they are very open about differnit ways of doing the same technique.

However, I don't know what to tell you about your second problem.


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## morph4me (May 15, 2008)

CuongNhuka said:


> If I had a problem with a student (note, student) telling me differently then the instructor (note, instructor), I would say "well, lets be safe, and get Sensei's oppion on this." followed by calling them over and asking them what they think. However, a student is probably not going to have nearly the same understanding of a technique that a Yondan has. It also might be changed by your style of Aikido. In Ki-nokenkyukai (sp) they are very open about differnit ways of doing the same technique.
> 
> However, I don't know what to tell you about your second problem.


 
I agree, students shouldn't be teaching, that's the instructors job. Your always better off calling an instructor over when you're having a problem, and if another student is correcting you, then one or the other or both of you may have misunderstood the instructions and need clarification. 

As far as your second issue, I'll say this, if you think you have a business arrangement, you have to put a value on what you're being taught, if you're honest with yourself, you may find that you aren't paying even close to what you should be for the value you're getting, and if you are paying enough, you may need to find a better instructor.


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## terryl965 (May 15, 2008)

CuongNhuka said:


> If I had a problem with a student (note, student) telling me differently then the instructor (note, instructor), I would say "well, lets be safe, and get Sensei's oppion on this." followed by calling them over and asking them what they think. However, a student is probably not going to have nearly the same understanding of a technique that a Yondan has. It also might be changed by your style of Aikido. In Ki-nokenkyukai (sp) they are very open about differnit ways of doing the same technique.
> 
> However, I don't know what to tell you about your second problem.


 
I agree anytime you feel something is wrong ask the instructor to show you and the other student it again. Better safe than sorry.


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## theletch1 (May 15, 2008)

Spot on, Tom.  One thing to really look at is whether or not the different students are disagreeing with one another or are pointing out one of the hundred different finer points that are hidden within each technique.  As you mature in the art you'll begin to add your own "flavor" to each of the techniques.  However at this early a stage in your training you need a solid base from which to work.  As Tom said, students shouldn't be instructing you.  That's the instructors job.  Now, that doesn't mean that your classmates can't offer feedback but if what they are telling you differs from what the instructor is telling you then call the instructor over for clarification.  You can do it in a way that doesn't insult your partner.  "I just can't get this technique to work for me.  Maybe sensei can see what's going on if he watches me do the technique to you."  It puts your classmate in a position to think they've tried to help but you need something more instead of putting them on the defensive.

As for your second question: A MA school is a little different critter as far as the business arrangement goes.  You SHOULD be getting what you paid for BUT when you sign on to study there you agree (at least in theory) to be part of an extended family of sorts.  If you are paying by the class then address it with the head instructor.  If you're paying by the month then you can probably make the class up later.  Helping out the dojo is part of being a student.  Many dojo have the students clean the training area at the end of each class.  

Keep us posted on how your training is going.  You've piques my interest.  BTW, what style of aikido are you studying?


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## terryl965 (May 15, 2008)

Jurat13 remember about the losing of a class because your instructor would like help to make the dojo clean, this is nothing compared to what you might learn from your vistor. I would just look at it as community service and a lesson learn though the thought of helping your school. Value comes in alot of different ways.


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## jurat13 (May 15, 2008)

Thanks for the comments thus far.

Jeff, I don't know if there is a way I can answer what style it is without disclosing any affiliations, etc.  Let me try and answer it this way... I would say it is one of the more larger organizations out there.


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## zDom (May 15, 2008)

Part of the problem may be you THINK you are doing it as previously shown, but are actually just doing so to the best of your ability.

Heck, if it were possible to do things as shown immediately after, then we wouldn't have to spend years and years and years training 

But the above advice is good  when in doubt, do as the senior student asks for the moment, then go ask the head instructor to show it to you again.


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## Nomad (May 15, 2008)

It sounds like the other students are showing off their knowledge a bit, and are likely giving what they believe is helpful advice based on what _they_ have each found in the technique that works _for them_.

It is possible for 2 (or more) martial artists to give completely conflicting advice on how to perform a technique and for them both to be correct (as illogical as it sounds).  Some techniques may require different mechanics based on varying body types; other times the other students may just be focusing on different aspects of a technique (eg. hand position vs. stance vs. breath... etc.).

It is for this reason that we try to get such "helpful" students to back off a bit, especially on new students; it can be overwhelming to get 15 different criticisms on your basic reverse punch when you're only able to process one or two (at this time).  

In our school, we politely acknowledge any correction or critism with a simple "Thank you, sir".  It is understood, however that only the head instructor has the *facts* (such as they are); everyone else trying to help simply has opinions.

If you are finding the varying opinions on techniques very confusing, mention it to your instructor and see what his reaction is.


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## charyuop (May 15, 2008)

It seems now it is working. I had prepeared a looooong reply, but this thread didn't work for me. Now I have to go to work, tomorrow will be another day


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## Kacey (May 15, 2008)

I agree with those who say that different people will have different perspectives.  Something I have noticed as an instructor is that I always see my own mistakes in others before I see anything else, and my students, when they help teach, do as well - so everyone has their own perspective and will see, and emphasize, different aspects of any particular technique.  

If the other students are doing that - emphasizing different aspects of a technique - then you will more quickly attain a broader understanding of each technique, despite an initial (and quite understandable) confusion at first.  If, however, each one has a different method of performing a technique that goes beyond personal understanding/style, then certainly, as above, suggest that you as a pair/group ask the instructor to demonstrate the technique again.

As far as cleaning the dojo goes, it depends on the quality of the incoming guest.  It is certainly within the norm for Asian culture (and thus Asian-derived martial arts schools) to expect that students will forgo their their training to a certain extent to maintain the dojo - how much training you are willing to forgo depends on your overall commitment to the dojo.  If this is a once or twice a year event, then I would say that it is a demonstration of the value of the seminar instructor, and you need to decide for yourself if you appear that morning or not - but if this guest is that important to your instructor, then your absence will certainly be noted and may be considered detrimental; if it happens monthly or more often, then you may need to consider finding another school.


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## jks9199 (May 15, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Spot on, Tom.  One thing to really look at is whether or not the different students are disagreeing with one another or are pointing out one of the hundred different finer points that are hidden within each technique.  As you mature in the art you'll begin to add your own "flavor" to each of the techniques.  However at this early a stage in your training you need a solid base from which to work.  As Tom said, students shouldn't be instructing you.  That's the instructors job.  Now, that doesn't mean that your classmates can't offer feedback but if what they are telling you differs from what the instructor is telling you then call the instructor over for clarification.  You can do it in a way that doesn't insult your partner.  "I just can't get this technique to work for me.  Maybe sensei can see what's going on if he watches me do the technique to you."  It puts your classmate in a position to think they've tried to help but you need something more instead of putting them on the defensive.
> 
> As for your second question: A MA school is a little different critter as far as the business arrangement goes.  You SHOULD be getting what you paid for BUT when you sign on to study there you agree (at least in theory) to be part of an extended family of sorts.  If you are paying by the class then address it with the head instructor.  If you're paying by the month then you can probably make the class up later.  Helping out the dojo is part of being a student.  Many dojo have the students clean the training area at the end of each class.
> 
> Keep us posted on how your training is going.  You've piques my interest.  BTW, what style of aikido are you studying?


By now, a couple of people have pointed out that what may be happening is that each student has learned a valid, but slightly different way of doing the technique.  This is normal; my body is shaped one way (rather more round than I might like... especially in the waist) while yours might longer and lankier.  I'm more than respectably strong; you might not be strong at all.  We'll each do many techniques slightly differently because of that.

On top of that, there are different levels of understanding.  In my class, we don't separate students by skill level or rank, except on rare occasions.  Instead, each student is expected to learn the night's lesson at their own level.  I'll expect a student nearing black belt to notice and recognize many pieces, maybe even see the general principle that underlies the technique.  But someone who's on their second or third night may only learn the most basic direction of the technique.  When they work with each other as partners, that advanced student may point out principles or elements of the technique that weren't apparent to the beginner.

But, in the end, it's the INSTRUCTOR who knows the technique, and determines how it's done for that class.  One of the most frustrating things to me is when I attend a clinic or seminar, and other students get so busy "teaching" the material that they don't realize that what they're doing isn't what the instructor did.  It's a great challenge as you advance in your training to be able to simply learn when attending a clinic, instead of trying to teach.  As a newer student (or junior) what I suggest is that you use phrasing like "But Sensei did it differently" and "can we ask sensei; I guess maybe I didn't understand what he said right because it didn't sound like that..."  Note that these are face-saving approaches; you're not saying their wrong, just that you don't see that what they're doing isn't what the instructor did.

With regard to cleaning the dojo...  It all depends on the culture of the school.  I expect my students to assist in preparing for special events, but we're a club, not simply a collection of classes.  Students pay dues to assist in paying rent and paying for special events, not per-class fees.


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## charyuop (May 16, 2008)

That's a bad mistake that most mid-levels do and nothing can change it. EGO! That is not done intentionally of course, but the "I did it right once so I mastered it" syndrome is common.
In my opinion there a couple of things you need to keep in mind.
YOUR BEHAVIOUR. And here I am speaking physically. You might have Sensei himself that tells you once one thing and maybe after a month on the same technique will tell you something that in your ear sounds different. Is he nuts? I doubt it hee hee. That fact is that you don't see yourself. The first time you might have been doing an error that in your Sensei's opinion you could have fixed by moving in a certain way. After a month you might be moving differently and do another error which to be fixed might need Sensei to have you move the opposite way, maybe just the way he told you not to do the month before. Compensation (and happens to me alot). I do something wrong and I fix it, but that new movement doesn't feel that natural to my body. So what my body does? Compensate and to feel confortable again corrupts my posture in another way.
TECHNIQUE. As someone stated before techniques are different, even tho they carry the same name. Think yourself with an opponent in front of you. Can you think of a scenario? Only one??? Well, you might have your back against the wall, you might be in a narrow alley which prevent wide movements, you might have to turn after the technique coz someone else is behind you or else you might be protecting your little daughter behind you and have to stand your ground at any cost. Yes, you can use the same technique for all these cases, but of course, as someone said before me, the technique will have dirrent flavours. I remember the first time this thing was pointed out to me. We were doing Ikkyo and I thought well, done before I can do it again. So I go ahead and do my nice Ikkyo Omote and walk and bring him down and pin and...Sensei says no,no,no. You didn't pay attention. I have never left my spot. What you did was different. I want you to bring down Uke quickly without you leaving your spot. Well, from there I started paying more attention to what Sensei was explaining, no Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo, Kotegaeshi...but rather what kind of relationship with the energy today Sensei wants to work with. Some of those guys in the dojo might not have caught that point yet. So they might have given you all good explaination, but they might have not been what your Sensei wanted from you in that moment.


Best solution? Tough to say. Maybe asking for advice from your Sensei on what to do when this is gonna happen again.


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## jurat13 (May 16, 2008)

Everyone thank you for the responses thus far.  Please keep them coming.

ZDon, you make a good point when you say that perhaps I may not be doing the technique how I thought the instructor showed me.  

You stated in part, "Part of the problem may be you THINK you are doing it as previously shown, but are actually just doing so to the best of your ability.  Heck, if it were possible to do things as shown immediately after, then we wouldn't have to spend years and years and years training..."

Your analysis makes perfect sense to me.

However, I am talking about scenarios where there is really no room for error even if you just walked off the street and were learning the technique with no prior martial arts experience.

For example, We were doing a Bo exercise where Uke starts in the standard Aikido stance (I am new so I don't remember the name of the stance), and then Uke performs a skeet(?) with the Bo, and Nage tries to take it from Uke, redirects uke, and throws Uke using his own momentum.

Now I realize that a newbie such as myself will not be proficient in performing the Uke or Nage role of that Bo skeet exercise for some time.  So if a fellow student corrects me during that drill I understand.  But here is the part where I believe that my fellow student should not correct me because it is easy for me or perhaps even and inexperienced martial artist off the street to remember.

Here's my point...  Group work has begun on doing this Bo skeet exercise.  There are an odd number of students so I don't have a partner.  Yondan decides to work with me.  

Yondan instructed me to begin the Bo skeet exercise by placing the Bo on the floor, and on my centerline when I am in the standard Aikido stance.  That is something that I feel is easy for me to remember, or even perhaps and inexperienced martial artist as well.  Keep the Bo on the floor, and on my centerline.  

Well when we switched partners, my fellow student felt the need to tell me to keep the Bo on the floor in front of my big toe.  Therefore, rest the Bo off of my centerline.  I explained to this fellow student that Yondan just instructed me to keep the Bo on my centerline.  That's when my fellow student said, "Well I would still do it the way that I am showing you, if Yondan corrects you then I would do what he says."

Can you guys explain this? 

Thanks,

Confused Newbie


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## Tez3 (May 16, 2008)

jurat13 said:


> Everyone thank you for the responses thus far. Please keep them coming.
> 
> ZDon, you make a good point when you say that perhaps I may not be doing the technique how I thought the instructor showed me.
> 
> ...


 
I have to say I've come across this as well. In fact I saw this last night in training. I suspect too it's ego.
We had some new guys in the MMA class, my instructor was teaching basics, the first was a straight arm bar from mount. It's a simple technique, my instructor showed them how to grab both hands ( a preference of his to hide which arm he's going for) then slide off to the side of the chosen arm, one leg across throat, the other across chest, arm in lock across hip etc. (not a complete description but enough I hope to give you an idea) the guys started to practice but one of our more 'experienced' guys started helping them, oh you want to do this, and move this here, and don't do that, basically changing everything the instructor told them. 
Now when you are more experienced and you're grappling freely with techniques you are comfortable with you do change things to suit yourself, in that particular move I was shown a way to make it easier for me being small but when you are starting out you learn the basic techniques surely? To me, changing what an instructor has told beginners is disrespectful and showing off. The way this student was showing them last night struck me as being boastful, as if he knew more than our instructor. By all means show them other variations once they have mastered the basic technique as I think they'd understand it better then but let them learn basics first.
Perhaps it's just me? Jurat13s post did strike a chord with me though. Perhaps I'm being uncharitable in thinking it's ego that makes people tell you to do things their way rather than the instructors.


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## morph4me (May 16, 2008)

Another issue that arises is that the other students may be giving you corrections they were given, and they may not apply to you. I give individual students different corrections on the same techniques to correct problems they're having, but the correction for student A may be different than the correction for student B for the same problem, because the source of the problem is different.

Using your issue as an example, the guy who told you to keep the bo inf front of your toe may have been given this correction because his toe is already lined up with the center of his body when he's in the stance, your stance may be slightly different and the correction won't apply


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## jurat13 (May 16, 2008)

morph4me, excellent point regarding different corrections for different folks.  I hadn't considered that at all.

taz3, you and charyuop mentioned ego as a possible factor.  After reading both of your posts, I may agree.  Last Saturday, I volunteered to mop the dojo mat.  While mopping the dojo mat I was promptly corrected by a senior student who frequently corrects me on everything that I should mop the mat his way.  Perhaps there is some ego involved there.

Everyone, let me add another twist... does size of the practitioner in a soft style art (Aikido, Tai Chi), as opposed to a hard style art (Boxing, Karate, Muay Thai) influence the amount of corrections that a practitioner may receive?

For example, I am 6'1" fluctuate between 217 lbs - 225 lbs.  I feel that my build is athletic, muscular.  In my dojo I am considered a "big guy."  I personally do not feel that I am a big guy.  Every night when I go to the gym I see guys that are 2-3 times my size.  Consistent with the saying that there will always be someone bigger, or stronger, or faster than you. 

In my dojo there are three other "big guys."  No offense to them, but I  observe their build to not be muscular.

I sometimes feel that since I am deemed a "bigger guy" and studied Muay Thai, and Boxing one senior student in particular, automatically assumes that I want to bash people in. 

Let me illustrate how my perceived size may also influence the corrections that I may receive.  The same senior student who corrects me about mopping the dojo floor, saw me start the beginning of a technique to throw someone (This throw is executed by stepping into the Uke, having one hand higher, and the other lower, and Nage throws Uke).  This senior student is also deemed a "bigger guy."

Now let's assume that any particular drill is practiced for about 20 repetitions for Uke and Nage a piece.  I was Nage and as Uke approached me I proceeded to do my 1st out of 20 throws.  The senior student immediately lectured me on using strength.  My thinking is I get 20 tries, and I am new.  I am sure that I may get the 1st try wrong.  Perhaps I may even get tries 2-13 wrong.  I may then get try #14 right.  Then go right back and get tries 15-20 wrong again.  But shouldnt I be allowed to practice the drill?  As a result, he did not allow me to complete the drill, and began to lecture me about Aikido being a soft style, does not use brute strength, etc.


Later Yondan used him for a demonstration and proceeded to tell the class that this senior student needs to relax, and not be so bulky and use his size.  So maybe the senior student felt the need to exercise power over me.  I don't know.

At the end of class, Yondan wanted us to break into groups with 3 Ukes and one Nage.  The Nage was to perform the throwing drill that he asked us to  practice earlier.  Well because the senior student had lectured me during my time to practice the drill.  I did not know what to do when we did this randori type drill at the end of class.

Nevertheless, do bigger students in softer styles become perceived to only want to use strength and not use technique and thus receive more corrections?


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## Nomad (May 16, 2008)

jurat13 said:


> Nevertheless, do bigger students in softer styles become perceived to only want to use strength and not use technique and thus receive more corrections?


 
As a fellow big guy, let me state that this may be less a perception on the part of everyone else in the dojo and more a simple observation of the way you're doing the technique.  Larger guys tend to "muscle our way through" without even thinking about it, especially when new to an art (and this is probably even more evident in a soft art like Aikido).  Part of this, again, goes back to body types.  In my experience, it takes years to get rid of this tendency, and even now it crops up every once in awhile.  

In contrast, we had a lady at our dojo who stood maybe 5'1" tall and weighed ~90 lbs soaking wet, and she could toss us big guys around like rag dolls.  This clearly demonstrates the benefits of having near-perfect technique (as she had). 

It will take some time for you to learn how to relax, breathe, and use the principles underlying the technique to do the work for you.

OTOH, it also sounds like some of your fellow students may be overly attentive at this point... it's okay sometimes to back off and let newer students just do the technique.  If all goes well, you have years to come to "fix" it; piling on too much at once (as appears to be the case here) leads only to frustration, and may cause people to drop the class.


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## zDom (May 16, 2008)

... and then there are times a senior student is simply doing it wrong 

I'd say, no use arguing with him: the sensei will straighten him out eventually.

Just smile, try to do what he asks for that moment  then forget about it and go back to doing what the sensei told you (keep it centered!) when you move on to the next partner. (shrug)


Better the sensei humbles/embarresses him than you


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## jks9199 (May 17, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I have to say I've come across this as well. In fact I saw this last night in training. I suspect too it's ego.
> We had some new guys in the MMA class, my instructor was teaching basics, the first was a straight arm bar from mount. It's a simple technique, my instructor showed them how to grab both hands ( a preference of his to hide which arm he's going for) then slide off to the side of the chosen arm, one leg across throat, the other across chest, arm in lock across hip etc. (not a complete description but enough I hope to give you an idea) the guys started to practice but one of our more 'experienced' guys started helping them, oh you want to do this, and move this here, and don't do that, basically changing everything the instructor told them.
> Now when you are more experienced and you're grappling freely with techniques you are comfortable with you do change things to suit yourself, in that particular move I was shown a way to make it easier for me being small but when you are starting out you learn the basic techniques surely? To me, changing what an instructor has told beginners is disrespectful and showing off. The way this student was showing them last night struck me as being boastful, as if he knew more than our instructor. By all means show them other variations once they have mastered the basic technique as I think they'd understand it better then but let them learn basics first.
> Perhaps it's just me? Jurat13s post did strike a chord with me though. Perhaps I'm being uncharitable in thinking it's ego that makes people tell you to do things their way rather than the instructors.


Often, until they've learned how to teach, a student doesn't realize that the way they're doing a technique today isn't the way they learned it initially.  They forget that to reach the way they do it now, they had to start in a clunkier or less effective way.  As an analogy, consider reading.  Most people don't learn to read by recognizing words in gestalt; they learn to read by recognizing the sound of each letter, and putting them together.  In time, you see the word whole, and know what it means, but at first, you "sound it out."  So, while almost anyone reading this post would immediately recognize "CAT" as the pesky critters that have staff and deign to allow us to feed and occasionally pet them, a person just learning to read has to recognize the "k" or hard C, the soft "ah", and the "tuh" of the T, then put it together as "kuh ah tuh", then "cat."


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## Sukerkin (May 17, 2008)

*"Just smile, try to do what he asks for that moment &#8212; then forget about it and go back to doing what the sensei told you (keep it centered!) when you move on to the next partner. (shrug)"*

This is such good advice that I, as the saying goes, 'quoted it for truth'.


Don't let it get under your skin, *Jurat*.  This sort of thing happens all the time and in all disciplines.  

The martial arts are a place where we tend to see it more often because of the nature of the training and it is also the case that the art 'changes' for you as you mature both in skill and age.  That is how you can have people who hold high grades in an art who disagree with how another of similar rank performs a technique.

My sensei tells us to follow a very simple guideline on this issue.  

If someone of senior rank is teaching us something and it differs from the way that sensei has taught us, do it the way the person instructing you at the time wants you to do it.  If you get chance afterwards to explain how what was just taught differs from what you had learned before then do so but _only_ in a way that steers clear of "Youre wrong" type of inferences .

He rounds off by saying Iai is about adapting to circumstances as well as being in control of yourself and the sword.  So, if you are taught a variation on a kata learn *both*. 

I find this a very sensible position and have made use of it on those occasions where I have been 'corrected' on a technique.  After all, I'm not much of a swordsman if I can't purposefully change an element of what I'm doing.


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## charyuop (May 17, 2008)

Getting close to the 2 years of Aikido and trust me I use muscle all the time. I don't think it's something you can lose quickly, and yes, we big guys tend to muscle people around alot. I tell you more. My Sensei, for sure your Sensei too and your Senpai, can tell you that you are about to use muscles even before you start...just by looking at your shoulders.
But no, it is not the job of the senior student to stop you and correct you.
With a newer guy than me I usually let him do few tries and then I stop him in the middle of the technique, but not using words. I know how to stop him at his level using a better posture. This way he has the chance to correct himself. With a guy who is at my level (grrrr envy, maybe even better grrrrr) I let him go once or twice, even tho he realizes on his own he is doing it wrong, then after that I try to take advantage of his mistake and reverse the technique. No way I can do it, maybe once out of 500 LOL, but he realizes immediately what he did wrong and adjusts.

I have always said Uke job is not easy. Helping someone else to learn Aikido in my opinion is harder than learning it.


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## Brian King (May 17, 2008)

*Jurat13 wrote*



> &#8220;On another unrelated issue. The dojo is hosting a seminar by a highly ranked instructor from out of town. The instructors want students to do a thorough cleaning of the dojo on the weekend before the seminar begins. However, the cleaning shall be completed at the sacrifice of training. I was under the impression that we would still hold a morning practice, and then everyone pitches in and does a thorough cleaning after that. But the actual plan is to cancel class all together.
> 
> I understand the concept of community/communal help, etc. But now it is coming at the expense of instruction that I am paying for. I am paying for the seminar, and I also pay a monthly fee for instruction. In other words this is still a business transaction. I am paying for a service, and expect to receive value in return.
> 
> What are your thoughts? Again please feel free to give me your honest opinion.&#8221;


 
Thank you for the thread and the chance to join in with some honest conversation.
The simple first

You wrote &#8220;However, the cleaning shall be completed at the sacrifice of training.&#8221;

This is an interesting and honest statement and speaks of your conflict and it also points out further conflict that you may have in the future during your Aikido journey. First the disclaimers LOL I do not do nor have I done &#8220;Aikido&#8221; but I do have good relationships with many that do and long relationship between our school of Russian Martial Art and an Aikido school that shares a wall with us.

If you consider Aikido training the collection of techniques to be applied to preset conditions and expectations then it is my opinion that you are selling your training cheap and short. Good Aikido is more than a merely collection and understanding of techniques. It might be a little too much information for you right now but trust me if you will, if your school is a good one you are learning many lessons even with out you being completely aware of them. Relationships and trust are important in martial training (and in life) and building them takes practice and grace. 

My opinion is to show up and enthusiastically pitch in and get your training area up to the standards expected. Nobody says that while you are all busy dusting and wiping that you cannot ask questions of the seniors and your peers. There is much philosophy that can be explained while changing light bulbs, much of ones life&#8217;s experiences can be shared while wiping and oiling weapon displays. The seniors have much to share and so do you and both have much to learn from each other, not just the twist and spiral here and rotate this stuff. It can humanize the seniors when you see them gladly scrubbing the toilets and it can humble a person to see one doing a job that you thought too lowly for you to do, and see them receiving a value from the doing of it. 

_OK now on to the more interesting of your first two questions_.
"Beginner Receiving Constant Varying Feedback from Different Students "

It has been my observations that many times people offering &#8216;help&#8217; are actually helping themselves more than the person they are giving the advice to. Talking thru a technique is a means that some students use to better understand the technique. Their offering advice to you is a means of their trying to gain insight and better understanding of the technique, hence their parroting of different instructors and the instructors advice, and their making up on the spot the &#8216;corrections&#8217; and the &#8216;errors&#8217; unfortunately in their limited understanding more often than not they get it wrong and confuse themselves and their training partner in the process.

It might also be a bit of ego but just as often (or more so) it is more fear than ego. If a student has a training partner that intimidates them a bit, and/or if they are doing a technique that they are just a little uncomfortable with, it is a learned defensive tool to appear helpful and knowledgeable, yet at the same time slow down the training, ease the &#8216;realism&#8217; and resistance offered and to reinforce the self esteem that might be suffering even at the subconscious levels by demonstrating a superior level of understanding. Understanding and recognizing the differences between fear and ego motivations is useful both in martial work and in life. 

Often a person that is nervous has a bit of nervous energy about them and will feel the need to &#8216;chatter&#8217; and being as this is a martial class and usually chatter is limited but helpful guidance and instruction are not so limited, the result is an abundance of talking about the technique rather than doing the technique. 

Sometimes a person is fatigued (or just plain lazy) and correcting and talking about a technique is a means of stalling and recollecting themselves.

Some people just feel the need to be helpful or thought of as helpful.

There are many different motivations and the same person can have many different motivations at different times. The trick is to start to learn to recognize and understand them.

It is not related to just beginner students Jurat13, if you watch and listen you will see all levels offering advice to training partners needed or not, especially at events where it is not mandatory to wear a gi or colored belt uniform thing. It is just one of those things to be smiled at and understood. The training partner teaches and often it is more than merely technique that they demonstrate and teach understanding human nature betters you to understand your own. Seeing weaknesses and strength in others betters you to value and understand your own. As you gain in experience and understanding your options as to how to deal with the situation also increase.

Here is an example of one persons dealing with it that I witnessed. I was at one of the Aiki expo events that Stanley Pranin of aikidojournal.com hosted several years ago and one of our students (also a long time Aikido practitioner) was working with a very large black belt senior student of the instructor teaching the workshop (a law enforcement DT type of workshop) and this black belt started to offer the student advice right from the beginning before even feeling her work. My back was turned but I heard that distinctive boom&#8230;thud that somebody makes when they take a bad fall and collision with both floor and wall that made me turn to see if anyone was injured. There was our tiny student asking sweetly &#8220;like that?&#8221; to a large black belt piled in heap ten feet away from her with a dazed look on his face. I was not alone in working hard to suppress my laughter at his expense and later ribbing the girl not to beat up the big black belts. Those were great events with over 800 participants and lots of great training and relationships built, big black belt hitting the wall in a heap not withstanding. 

I do not know it in Spanish but there is the Mexican saying that if one person calls you an burro (the other term for that animal is how I learned the saying LOL) they are the burro but if three people call you a burro it might be time to buy a comfortable saddle! If one person tells you that you are muscling too much it is different than if three are saying so. 

*Jurat13 wrote:*



> &#8220;Nevertheless, do bigger students in softer styles become perceived to only want to use strength and not use technique and thus receive more corrections?&#8221;


 
Not in my experience. Often men no matter their size want to use their strength first and technique second. That is in fact natural and how many martial arts became needed and developed. First we use strength but then meet somebody just a strong or stronger so then we move on to techniques to help. Watch a newer smaller male working with a bigger male and notice how they will try to muscle and force their way through a technique even though they are weaker and smaller. Watch two males (especially those that are similar in size and perceived strength) that do not know each other well as they first start to work and notice how ones tensing and trying to muscle will affect the other to up the ante and to also use strength and tension to win the technique. Want to watch a series of frustrations have a person that is used to muscling their way thru a technique work with somebody that is SO much smaller or weaker than they are (Child, smaller female, older person, somebody frail)that they cannot in good consciousness use strength try to work their technique without the muscling. 

One way to keep yourself from becoming &#8216;that guy&#8217; that has to use his strength is to exhaust those muscles past failure before doing the technique so that you can not use muscles even if you want to. For example if you are doing techniques that will require your arms put yourself into a static push-up/press-up position and hold it perfectly still for ten or fifteen minutes (or whatever your range is) prior to your turn. If less time is available just complete one push-up really really slow. Take at least 30 seconds or one minute to go from the top of the push-up position to one inch of the ground then take the same amount of time to slowing go back to the top position. Or you can do a quick pyramid of pushups, during one inhale or one exhale complete one pushup, then during one inhale or exhale do two push-ups, then during one inhale/exhale do three push-ups&#8230;work you way up to nine or twelve or so then work your way back down so if nine (or six or whatever) was your high number of reps your next is one less all the way back to one. Then do your techniques.

Regards
Brian King


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## Logan (May 19, 2008)

Without knowing the ins and outs I would take everything with a pinch of salt....

What is most important in Aikido is remembering the basic priniciples. There are countless variations of techniques but for it to be "good" aikido, the technique must allign as closely as possible with the basics.

The size and weight of uke, distance, timing and everything else contributes to what variation of technique you utilise at what particular moment.

So, against one uke of a particular size and weight and all the other factors, he/she might give feedback of "what they think" is the most appropriate correction at that particular time. This is not to say that it is wrong but nor may it always be right.

You must also remember that your aikido is just your aikido and what works for one person may not work for another. Again, try and remember the basics - if someone is muscling a technique, it is probably bad.

This may be slightly controversial but don't take everything the sensei says as law either. I have visited plenty of dojos where the teacher, although perhaps focusing on a particular point, has completely lost track of other factors involved in a technique. In these cases, students - who may or may not be of higher grade than the teacher - may be able to correct you. As a beginner, it is often difficult to separate crap from crap or quality from different quality.

Without waffling further, it may come with time but trust your own judgement. Take on board what people say but find out what works for you, keep the basic principles always in mind and you will make progress.


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## charyuop (May 19, 2008)

Logan said:


> Without knowing the ins and outs I would take everything with a pinch of salt....
> 
> What is most important in Aikido is remembering the basic priniciples. There are countless variations of techniques but for it to be "good" aikido, the technique must allign as closely as possible with the basics.
> 
> ...


 
Not too early to make such a discussion? Mind I am not saying  it is wrong. But maybe before reaching a "principle" and "feeling" talk he needs to start chewing the how to move and stand part.


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## Logan (May 19, 2008)

charyuop said:


> Not too early to make such a discussion? Mind I am not saying it is wrong. But maybe before reaching a "principle" and "feeling" talk he needs to start chewing the how to move and stand part.


 
What on earth do you think basic principles refer to? Good posture and movement are the core principles of any  martial art.......I don't remember writing anything about "feeling"....did you even read before posting?


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## slink (May 19, 2008)

I've experienced problems with conflicting advice from time to time.  What I have learned is that the quality of advice is typically in proportion to the experience of the person giving it.  We have multiple people at I-Kyu and Shodan level at my school and I have learned that when these people give me seemingly conflicting advice what they are really giving me are perfectly valid points of view.  One person may say to do one thing to improve your technique and another person may tell you something different to improve your technique; both of them may be correct.  However, and this is very rare, I have also encountered people of lower kyu levels (still more advanced than me though) who are sincerely trying to help you but are actually steering you off course.  Sometimes the best indicator of this is to try out their suggestion and see if anything actually does improve.  The advice about asking a more senior student or your sensei for clarification is great if you have that option.


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## jurat13 (May 21, 2008)

Everyone,

Thank you for taking the time to provide me with responses to my post.  I appreciated your opinions, and weighed them carefully.

FYI, I decided to not continue my instruction at this school at this time.  Perhaps I am not at a point in my life and training where I can truly appreciate this style of instruction and training offered at this school.  Perhaps I was the problem.

Nevertheless, I have enrolled in another school, and style, and am enjoying the instruction, and interaction with my fellow students thus far.  

This is not to say that I feel this style and instruction is better than Aikido.  In addition, this is definitely not an indictment against Aikido or that school, but more so a realization that perhaps I am the square peg trying to fit into the round circle.

Thanks again for your advice and opinions.

Best Regards,

Walter


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## jks9199 (May 21, 2008)

jurat13 said:


> Everyone,
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to provide me with responses to my post.  I appreciated your opinions, and weighed them carefully.
> 
> ...


There's absolutely nothing wrong with recognizing that a style or school isn't the right one for you.  I think you'll find that to be an oft-repeated concept here on MT.  I'm glad you're in a place that you're happier now -- but you will almost certainly run into some of the same issues down the road, so take the lessons with you.  (Posters on this thread represented at least 4 or 5 different styles, off the top of my head...)


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## Kacey (May 21, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> There's absolutely nothing wrong with recognizing that a style or school isn't the right one for you.  I think you'll find that to be an oft-repeated concept here on MT.  I'm glad you're in a place that you're happier now -- but you will almost certainly run into some of the same issues down the road, so take the lessons with you.  (Posters on this thread represented at least 4 or 5 different styles, off the top of my head...)



Indeed.  The instructor's teaching style, the format and atmosphere of the class, and the other students are, ultimately, much more important than a particular MA; you could find the "ultimate" MA (if such a thing exists), love it intensely, and still not keep with it if the other factors are not to your liking - no matter how good the style is, if you don't like the class and/or the instructor, you're going to have serious problems sticking with it.  Finding a different class, one that suits you, is the best way to go - here's hoping you've found the right fit for yourself!


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