# Submission Match



## bignick (Oct 24, 2005)

Their is a submission wrestling match coming up this weekend I am seriously considering entering.  It sounds like striking won't be allowed, throwing and pinning are, but you can't win with them.  Hence the submission title, I guess.  

My taekwondo isn't going to play much of a factor, other than the fitness it gives me and understanding my body.  But I've been training in Judo and Jujutsu for about three years each now and every once in a while I get cocky and think I know a thing or two.  In case it helps anybody with strategy tips, I'm 6'5'' (2 m)and about 340 lbs (154 kgs).  

Just wondering if anybody's got some advice?


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## Andrew Green (Oct 24, 2005)

Well, if it is this weekend, my advise is don't listen to any advice.  Keep doing exactly what you are doing.

Trying to make a change to your game plan this close will only make things go bad.  Do what you are good at and fight the way you usually do.


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> Just wondering if anybody's got some advice?


 
Don't give up your back.
Watch out for armbars.
Have fun!


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## Shirt Ripper (Oct 24, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> Just wondering if anybody's got some advice?


 
Make the other guy submit.:2xBird2:


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## bignick (Oct 24, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Well, if it is this weekend, my advise is don't listen to any advice. Keep doing exactly what you are doing.
> 
> Trying to make a change to your game plan this close will only make things go bad. Do what you are good at and fight the way you usually do.



Yeah basically my plan any ways, but you never know when a good tip will swing your way.  

One thing that would be helpful is someone who is a little more familiar with these types of rulesets.  I'm assuming small joint manipulations are out of the picture (wrists, fingers, toes, etc).  Not sure about ankles, but my buddy, who did submission wrestling for quite awhile has been trying to teach me ankle locks for the last two years.  I'm a lost cause when it comes to them.  However, another friend was in the same tournament last year and said they allowed pressure point applications.  Is this common for this type of match or not?  Do they usually allow techniques like neck cranks, etc?  I realize that nobody here is going to know the specifics of the match, but I'd like to hear some general rules/guidelines.


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## bignick (Oct 24, 2005)

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> Make the other guy submit.:2xBird2:



You can just keep quiet, and sit on the sidelines....and make sure you bring your video camera, too....:ultracool


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 24, 2005)

I've done a few, never won, but did surprise myself and my opponent in how long I lasted.

Some advice:
- Give it your best
- See yourself mentally "winning". Feel the win, taste the win, believe the win.
- Prepare. Understand the rules you will be competing under. Know the environment.  Even arriving 5 minutes early can add to your preparation.
- Relax. It will help keep you flexible. The extra flex may help you turn or twist that hair extra needed to break out.
- Enjoy yourself. Even though I was being stretched, twisted and punished, I enjoyed the experience. 
- Learn. Every encounter is a chance to pick up tips, tricks and experience. Even when the other guy never says a word.

Good luck!


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## Andrew Green (Oct 24, 2005)

Rules can vary, and are sometimes partially dependent on skill group

ie. intermediate levels can do things beginners can't.


straight ankle locks are probably allowed, knee bar most likely are, anything twisting is often not allowed in beginner classes.


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## bignick (Oct 24, 2005)

Thanks, I think I'll swing by the gym hosting the tournament, probably Wednesday, to pick up some information.  It sounds like last year they had divisions for gi, no gi, and mixed. I think I'll stay in the gi, maybe try the mixed division too....I'm pretty sure nobody wants to see me without a gi anyways...


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## terryl965 (Oct 24, 2005)

Big nick you will do fine if you decide to go. Remember don't give up the back and if throws are allowed drive him inthe mat as hard as you can and hopefully you'll knock the wind out of him, anyway good luck.
Terry


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## Andrew Green (Oct 24, 2005)

One more thing:

Score first, score fast, score hard.

Works in any form of competition.  Give him something to think about right off the start and the rest of the match will go much nicer for you.


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## arnisador (Oct 25, 2005)

Go for it! I agree that at this point you have to trust to your training and not over-think it. It'll be a good learning experience for the next time.


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## Ceicei (Oct 25, 2005)

I know you'll be excited and possibly nervous, but be sure to get plenty of sleep and be well rested before you go.  Stretch out thoroughly.   Take control of the match as soon as possible.  Don't just wait around for your opponent to make the first move.  Above all, have fun.  Good luck!

- Ceicei


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## Eternal Beginner (Oct 25, 2005)

I know for the tournament we are going to in Minneapolis next week the rules are: 





> Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (Gi)      Submission Wrestling (No-Gi) Legal Techniques: -All armlocks, shoulder locks, wrist locks -Any chokes (except hands on windpipe) -Straight Ankle Locks/Achilles (Beginner/White Belt) -Footlocks and kneebars (Intermediate/Blue Belt) -All leg locks (Advanced/Purple Belt and above)       Illegal Techniques: -Striking of any kind -Eye Gouge -Fish Hooking-Hair Pulling -Small Joint/Neck Crank


  I know it probably isn't the same tournament, but it gives you an idea of what you might be up against.  Actually I have found the rules for most of the sub grap tourneys I've done are fairly similar, neck cranks being the most often debated and at what level knee bars/heel hooks are done can vary as well.  You should also probably be prepared for the time limit as they vary from skill level to skill level.  The Minneapolis tournament is 5 min for white/beginner, 7 min for blue/intermediate and unlimited for purple+/advanced (first to 10 points wins).   Oh, and bring your own snacks...the tournaments are notorious for not having enough energy bars and water/powerade on hand.  You can be there a while before your division is called so you will need something in your system.  Also, if possible, try to weigh in the night before.  This gives you adequate time to rehydrate and nourish yourself with great food.  Nothing sucks more than going in hungry and dehydrated.


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## bignick (Oct 25, 2005)

When you weigh 340 lbs....cutting weight is not one of your big concerns...


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## Shirt Ripper (Oct 25, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> When you weigh 340 lbs....cutting weight is not one of your big concerns...


 
Actually...

..it is.

Good luck bro.


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## bignick (Oct 25, 2005)

Shirt Ripper said:
			
		

> Actually...
> 
> ..it is.
> 
> Good luck bro.



Yeah, but not for this tournament...


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## Marvin (Oct 25, 2005)

I always say " we're just grown up 7 year olds!"
Have fun!
You'll do fine


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## mj_lover (Oct 25, 2005)

not sure how relevant this is, but when ground fighting keep your legs between him and you, let him wear himself out, while you regain some wind. ,make him tierd, he'll  submit easier.

just my 2c ​


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## bignick (Oct 26, 2005)

registered and paid for...

I'll let you know how it goes...


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## bignick (Oct 30, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> registered and paid for...
> 
> I'll let you know how it goes...



Eh, not so good...

Had fun, but really didn't approach it in a competitive mindset and got trounced as a result.  I think it was mostly just unfamiliarity with the rules and different styles of training.  I train in a sort of classical, stand-up Judo and Japanese Jujutsu....so wrestling and submissions aren't my strong point.  I don't know, it was a good time, and well run...but I don't know if I'll do something like this again... 

To add my own advice of the whole situation....if you've never done it before, try to find out what the rules are sometime before it starts...:uhyeah:


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## ajs1976 (Oct 30, 2005)

What were the rules at this one?


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## bignick (Oct 30, 2005)

No slamming from a standing position,
No small joint manipulations
No hands in the face

Can't remember all of them exactly, but that kinda gives you an idea...

Also, I was there for fun and a tiny medal isn't worth injury so as soon as I felt something get locked in even halfway decent I tapped out like a baby, whether I thought I could fight it or not...I wasn't sure of the attitude of the other competitors so I didn't want some jerk breaking my arm...


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## Lisa (Oct 30, 2005)

Glad you enjoyed the time, regardless of the results.   I give you a lot of credit for even trying it.  I grapple and competition is just not my thing.  Never has been and never will be.  I think certain people have that in them, I just don't.  Would love to see some of it live, but alas most competitions are out of my reach both location wise and financially.  Hope you got some pics for us that you can post! 

Again, glad you had a good time.

Lisa


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## Eternal Beginner (Oct 30, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> No slamming from a standing position,
> No small joint manipulations
> No hands in the face
> 
> ...



I give you a lot of credit for going, even though it is not your typical way of training.  Sometimes you really have to step out of your comfort zone and not always play it safe.

You are right about the medal...it isn't worth getting hurt for.  Although I do have to say I have been in four tournaments in less than a year and I have never encountered someone who would be that "jerk breaking my arm...".  Most of the guys/gals at these tournaments respect the fact you are putting it out there and would avoid injury at all costs.  The level of mutual respect at sub grap and BJJ tournaments that I have attended is astounding...far better than the point sparring tournaments I had done in the past.

Was this the Fargo tournament?  I have heard good things about it and if we had heard about it earlier we probably would have attended.  Too bad it was scheduled so close to the Minneapolis tourney.  Hopefully we will have some tournaments here in Winnipeg and not always have to travel so far.  I have logged quite a few miles our van in the last year!


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## bignick (Oct 30, 2005)

Yes it was the Fargo Open

And yes, the guys seemed very nice, and there was that feeling of camraderie, going over and having a nice chat with the guy that just almost choked you out....still you never know...


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## arnisador (Oct 30, 2005)

Hey, good for you for trying!


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## terryl965 (Oct 31, 2005)

Glad you had fun, that is important and it sound as you might have learned a little from it, that id a plus.
Terry


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## Eternal Beginner (Oct 31, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> Yes it was the Fargo Open



Sorry for hijacking this thread, but could you give me a little more info about this tournament?  Is it held every year?  Does it (or the club that sponsors it) have a website?  Was the women's division very big?  Cost for entering?  What did you think of the officiating?

I know that is a lot of questions, but I am always scouting for tourneys for our team and Fargo is so nice and close that I would hate to miss out on a quality tournament.


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## bignick (Nov 1, 2005)

Well, I obviously don't have anything to compare it too, but here goes...

*Is it held every year?* 
As far as I know...
*Does it (or the club that sponsors it) have a website?
*the club that sponsors it is www.rrtkd.com.  And as I found out later, there is a website for the tournament...www.fargoopen.com 
*Was the women's division very big?*
There were about 4-5 female competitors I believe...
*Cost for entering?*
$35
*What did you think of the officiating?
*I thought it was actually really fair and well done...everybody had a good attitude going in and it sounds like this year was huge growth from last year and hopefully it will continue to grow...


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## Eternal Beginner (Nov 1, 2005)

Thanks very much!


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## bignick (Nov 1, 2005)

Final thought on the matter, and the one reason I was kinda turned off...

The one thing that really suprised, and kinda disappointed me, was the number of really, really good "white" belts there...

Some of the people I knew, one of them was a brown belt in judo...I realize belt rank doesn't really matter, but some of them were even calling themselves "beginners"...this was a minority, and the divisions were small enough that it was only broken up by weight, not weight and experience...

Obviously, this isn't even an issue for a no-gi competition, but there were some people did it for the gi and it kinda bothered me.  Some them probably didn't have any formal rank and just like to compete in gi's but I knew some of them were BJJers or Judoka with years of experience...

Too bad that a few thought they needed deceit to win because there techniques weren't going to cover it...Deceit and outright lying are perfectly acceptable in a real life situation, but have no place in a friendly competition...


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## Eternal Beginner (Nov 1, 2005)

Yeah, you will always find sandbaggers...kind of pathetic actually.  I know my hubby fought a guy in Minneapolis last year that has been fighting in the beginner's division for years.  How can you feel good about a win  like that?  You aren't kidding anyone, especially yourself.

But one point I would like to make is that in BJJ especially you can legitimately stay a white belt for years.  The belt progressions aren't as quick as in many other arts.  So a four stripe white belt is going to be a totally different creature than a one stripe (or no stripe).  I know I am fighting in my second tournament as a blue belt this weekend and expect to get my butt handed to me by blue belts who are four-stripers...they have a lot more experience and skill even though we are the same colour.


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## bignick (Nov 2, 2005)

I do understand that...I was a yellow belt, first after white, in Judo for about three years...and there were no strip progressions in between.  However, the tournament asked for years of experience, not rank...Like I said, most weren't like that, but the ones that were I wasn't to happy with.


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## arnisador (Nov 2, 2005)

Sandbagging is common in BJJ...but as stated, so is legitimately being a long-term white belt.


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## bignick (Nov 2, 2005)

Actually, most the BJJ guys seemed like pretty decent cats...it was some of the Judoka and others in the area that I knew for certain were doing it...


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## Eternal Beginner (Nov 2, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> Actually, most the BJJ guys seemed like pretty decent cats...it was some of the Judoka and others in the area that I knew for certain were doing it...



I have been following a thread on another MA forum about a guy who is a third dan in judo, sambo champ, etc., etc. who keeps entering BJJ and sub grap tournaments as a novice!!!  What he gets out of that - I don't know.  Must have VERY low self-esteem if that strokes his ego.

Like Matt Hughes said on TUF last week...if you don't have any losses, you aren't fighting the right guys.


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## arnisador (Nov 2, 2005)

Eternal Beginner said:
			
		

> Like Matt Hughes said on TUF last week...if you don't have any losses, you aren't fighting the right guys.


 
I love that! I say something similar about colleges--if you have a 4.0, you went to the wrong school.


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## Shirt Ripper (Nov 2, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> Deceit and outright lying are perfectly acceptable in a real life situation, but have no place in a friendly competition...


Marvelous.


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## phlaw (Aug 31, 2006)

Hey Big Nick, you gonna compete in this years Fargo Open?


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## Eternal Beginner (Aug 31, 2006)

phlaw said:
			
		

> Hey Big Nick, you gonna compete in this years Fargo Open?


Do you have any info on this tournament?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 31, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I love that! I say something similar about colleges--if you have a 4.0, you went to the wrong school.


 
LOL


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## bignick (Aug 31, 2006)

Nope, I'm no longer a resident of the F/M area.  Had to move once I graduated from college...couple friends are, though.


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