# Grabs and Holds



## Kenpo Yahoo (Jan 20, 2003)

Do kenpo techniques work on grabs and holds? Explain.


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## Kirk (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Do kenpo techniques work on grabs and holds? Explain. *



Do you study American Kenpo?  There are MANY techniques
addressing grabs and holds.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jan 20, 2003)

Let me rephrase do YOUR kenpo techniques work on grabs and holds?


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 21, 2003)

Yes, they do.


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## Robbo (Jan 21, 2003)

Depends on what you mean.

If somebody has put you into a rear arm bar and is in the process of breaking your arm there's probably not a whole lot you can do about it. However if you have an awareness and catch the holdas it is being applied then you have a unlimited number of responses.

It's like Mr. Parker said..."What do you do if somebody sticks a knife in your back?"

If the knife is stuck in your back it's a little late to start thinking about SD techniques.

On the other hand (pun intended) there are some grabs that you want your opponent to be succesful in. A single lapel grab takes one of their weapons away and can be used as a check for lone kimono.

Rob


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jan 21, 2003)

> If somebody has put you into a rear arm bar and is in the process of breaking your arm there's probably not a whole lot you can do about it.



I agree with this, but that's not what I meant.  What is a reason for putting someone in a hug or hold?  Surely you don't think that the hold is that menacing, so why would your attacker?  What is the intention of your attacker, surely it's not to simply hold you?  Let me rephrase the question then, if you wanted to grab someone so that they couldn't defend against it what would you do?

Is any one beginning to see where I'm going with this?


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## JD_Nelson (Jan 21, 2003)

I have been in a few altercations.   In the past before i studied martial arts, If I did not want to hit or kick someone I ended up putting them into a choke.  Normally it was a one handed choke with me driving them into a wall.  

As i think about it here, I think it had a shock factor to my defenders.  Initially they would reach up with both hands and hold my wrist.  Secondly, the impact of the defender hitting the wall kind of stunned them.   I would then express my point rather emphatically while I had there complete attention.  

I did use this approach on a chain link fence and ended up receiving a right cross.   I more or lessed slipped the punch, but with the chain link fence now springing toward me.  The act of slipping the puch and the force from the chain link fence made it look like i got clobbered.  

When putting this down in writing, and after having some of the training I have had.  I still feel like this is and was effective against Joe Somebody from the street.   In an altercation with another martial artists or one who has more experience with direct conflict I am not so sure this would be effective.  

Sincerely

JD


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## Blindside (Jan 21, 2003)

> What is a reason for putting someone in a hug or hold?



So my buddy can pound on him.

So I secure my opponents position so I can use my other hand.

So I can control a weapon hand (or just the arm).

Initial stages of a takedown (suplex, hip or shoulder throw,etc).  Look at how many judo throws start with a lapel grab.

Maybe I don't know what you are asking, hugs and holds aren't menacing by themselves, but they are precursers to Really Bad Things.

Lamont


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## WilliamTLear (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> *So my buddy can pound on him.
> 
> So I secure my opponents position so I can use my other hand.
> ...



THERE ARE OTHER REASONS FOR HOLDS:

Put someone in a good choke hold and the anti goes up considerably... the purpose can escalate to a broken neck or crushed larynx... both of which can lead to someone's unscheduled departure from this happy place we call life.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS


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## Michael Billings (Jan 21, 2003)

YES!  Always.

-Michael


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## Blindside (Jan 21, 2003)

> Put someone in a good choke hold and the anti goes up considerably... the purpose can escalate to a broken neck or crushed larynx... both of which can lead to someone's unscheduled departure from this happy place we call life.



Yup, I know, but he was referring to a "hold that isn't menacing" (paraphrase).  A choke/ necklock is most definately menacing!  So I was referencing the less dangerous holds; bear hug; lapel grab; wrist grab; etc.

Lamont


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## WilliamTLear (Jan 21, 2003)

Sorry. I guess I should have read a little further up the thread before posting. No problem dood.

Peace,
Billy Lear, UKS


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jan 22, 2003)

> Yup, I know, but he was referring to a "hold that isn't menacing" (paraphrase).



Actually what I said was the hold itself isn't that menacing.  So far this is what you all have said are the reasons you would grab/hug/hold someone (well at least in a confrontation )

1)So my buddy can pound on him.
2)Initial stages of a takedown (suplex, hip or shoulder throw,etc).
3)So I secure my opponents position so I can use my other hand (probably for striking).
4)Put someone in a good choke hold and the anti goes up considerably

So do any of you practice your SD techniques against grabs/hugs/holds in a manner that would take these aspects into account?

Unless it's a friend I'm trying to hold back, the main reason to move into that contact range is to set something up.  Most people when they grab you (bearhug from behind) are going to try and hoist you into the air.  Alot of takedowns use the hugs from the side of the body, and what purpose does it serve to grab someone directly from the front where their main concern is a knee crushing THE BOYS  .  The point is that we wouldn't grab like that so why don't take that into account in our training.



> hugs and holds aren't menacing by themselves, but they are precursers to Really Bad Things.


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 22, 2003)

I'm not sure what axe you're grinding (I wish you'd just tell us where you're going with this, since I suspect it's towards arguing for a) throwing out some techniques, b) arguing that kenpo doesn't handle grabs and holds effectively), but I'll try this:

If you're a kenpo black belt, you already know about Mr. Parker's Web of Knowledge. The techs start with grabs because these are the easiest attacks to counter for beginners at different belt levels; then come pushes, punches, kicks, holds/locks, weapons, multiple attackers, in ascending order of difficulty. 

Secondly, you probably already know about teaching students that a grab is commonly a prelude to a punch, knee kick, etc.: so teaching students to respond to a grab, at least, should include teaching them that their tech had better be effective, since there's probably a punch or something unpleasant on the way.

Third, techs are taught first in the "ideal," phase, because this makes learning possible in kenpo, provides a measure of safety margin, and helps with the issues of self-confidence that are a part of training for us all. Thus, the attacks look pretty static for quite a while. (It dovetails, incidentally, with the approach of a lot of traditional Japanese arts.) They do not look static forever.

Fourth--and it's a point Mr. Tatum makes nicely, when he teaches--the attacks are taught the way they're taught to teach students how to attack. How to do, for example, a choke.

Thanks for the discussion.


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## Michael Billings (Jan 22, 2003)

Good inclusive response.  

Yes, we do train the "What-if's" and anytime someone I don't knows arms go around me ... well given the context, I assume it is a threat and react correspondingly.

-Michael
 AKTS


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## Doc (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Actually what I said was the hold itself isn't that menacing.  So far this is what you all have said are the reasons you would grab/hug/hold someone (well at least in a confrontation )
> 
> 1)So my buddy can pound on him.
> ...



I do. That is paramount in our curriculum.


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## Brother John (Jan 22, 2003)

In the class that I taught last Saturday I had an ex-wrestler whom I was teaching Repeated Wing to... I simply told him to "Grab me in a bear-hug, around the arms, from the rear." He did so. Being a little bit taller and fairly strong he proceded to lift me from my feet and leave my legs a danglin... had to improvise. Now of course you know that when I'm executing Repeated Wing (and not taking the time to explain each phase of the action) I DO NOT wait for their hands to lock... but respond before the grab is completed. BUT in this situation I had to change it up. It was VERY enlightening and made me start asking the kind of questions that you are here... at least I think the point was similar to yours. It was his natural reaction to try to hoist me... so.. what then? So now we train like that, if you don't respond BEFORE the grab, then you have to deal w/ the natural consequences of that grab...
Sometimes it's the questions I love even more than the answers.
Your Brother
John

PS: YES, I think that Kenpo -can be- Very effective vs. grappling/grabs...etc. 
Very


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## Brother John (Jan 22, 2003)

The "Good Point" of yours that I addressed but failed to quote in my last response was:


> The point is that we wouldn't grab like that so why don't take that into account in our training.


Your Bro..
John


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## Doc (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *In the class that I taught last Saturday I had an ex-wrestler whom I was teaching Repeated Wing to... I simply told him to "Grab me in a bear-hug, around the arms, from the rear." He did so. Being a little bit taller and fairly strong he proceded to lift me from my feet and leave my legs a danglin... had to improvise. Now of course you know that when I'm executing Repeated Wing (and not taking the time to explain each phase of the action) I DO NOT wait for their hands to lock... but respond before the grab is completed. BUT in this situation I had to change it up. It was VERY enlightening and made me start asking the kind of questions that you are here... at least I think the point was similar to yours. It was his natural reaction to try to hoist me... so.. what then? So now we train like that, if you don't respond BEFORE the grab, then you have to deal w/ the natural consequences of that grab...
> Sometimes it's the questions I love even more than the answers.
> Your Brother
> ...



We have always trained that way with grabs being completed. Of course some rediculed me for being "silly" because it makes more sense to move before they do if possible. But, what if it isn't possible? What happens when they do grab you and lift? What would you say if I told you I could teach you  to keep them from being able to lift you. What if I could insure that both of your feet remain firmly planted on the ground for your next action. If you can't "Survive The Initial Assault," you can't move to retaliation can you?


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jan 22, 2003)

> I'm not sure what axe you're grinding (I wish you'd just tell us where you're going with this, since I suspect it's towards arguing for a) throwing out some techniques, b) arguing that kenpo doesn't handle grabs and holds effectively),



I'm not "grinding" anything.  Jeez man, you need to relax.  I was under the impression that forums were designed to stimulate conversation.  You don't have to agree with me on anything, I'm just looking to see what other people are doing.

I've had the opportunity to work out with people from other knowledge bases and I thought I might see how that affected my kenpo.  It has made me look a little differently at what I do, so I thought I might check to see if it was just me or if others might be dealing with the same things.  I think kenpo teaches some excellent things but in light of my recent training I think that it leaves a few things to be desired.  

Surely, you being a black belt would know how to grab someone so they can't hit you or even try to do a technique.  Well, what would you do if you were grabbed in that manner.  There is no reason to assume ignorance on the part of our attacker.  Being prepared for the worst and never seeing it is better than hoping that it works in a manner that allows you to do your Belt Manual written technique.  

Do you practice with dynamic control?  I was taught to grab people and destroy their balance and posture as quick as possible.  What if I was attacked in the same manner?  What would I do?  These are the kinds of questions that I'm asking, and the kinds of questions that should be asked if you want to keep learning.  Not everything can or should be learned from a belt manual.  There is a great deal to be said for ingenuity and exploration.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jan 22, 2003)

> We have always trained that way with grabs being completed. Of course some rediculed me for being "silly" because it makes more sense to move before they do if possible.



Sure it makes more sense to move before they do if possible, because action is faster than reaction.  That's why they tell you to drive 2-3 seconds behind other cars instead of a car length, because at higher speeds you reaction time has greater consequences.  To be quite honest, it would take a second or longer to realize what was happening if an attacker grabbed you from behind or on the side, so chances are they will lock the hold in.  Then what do you do?  If you train everything as an "attempted", then what happens when your reaction time isn't what it should be?  Do you train with these types of variables in mind?  Just curious.  Does anybody have any drills they work?   or perhaps further concerns, questions, or answers?


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## Doc (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> 
> I think kenpo teaches some excellent things but in light of my recent training I think that it leaves a few things to be desired.



As long as you realize that's your teachers "problem" and not the Kenpo. Most speak of the Kenpo itself lacking instead of placing the blame on the teacher of the Kenpo. Kenpo is fine, but lots of not so good teachers. (not necessarily yours)



> Surely, you being a black belt would know how to grab someone so they can't hit you or even try to do a technique.  Well, what would you do if you were grabbed in that manner?  There is no reason to assume ignorance on the part of our attacker.  Being prepared for the worst and never seeing it is better than hoping that it works in a manner that allows you to do your Belt Manual written technique.



Amen brother, you preaching it right.



> Do you practice with dynamic control?  I was taught to grab people and destroy their balance and posture as quick as possible.



That's right. Not they have to call you crazy too! I love's company.



> What if I was attacked in the same manner?  What would I do?  These are the kinds of questions that I'm asking, and the kinds of questions that should be asked if you want to keep learning.  Not everything can or should be learned from a belt manual.



Now just a dam minute. You spying on me boy? Don't let me catch you peekin'

In all seriousness, you are using your head and bringing forth really legitimate questions that demand reasonable answers. Unfortunately most "instructors" don't have those answers because they received their position by progressing through a limited information structure with an emphasis on proliferation and revenue rather than higher functionality. No knock, just a reality check. Thanks for joining me in the dance. I echo your sentiments exactly.


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## Doc (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Sure it makes more sense to move before they do if possible, because action is faster than reaction.  That's why they tell you to drive 2-3 seconds behind other cars instead of a car length, because at higher speeds you reaction time has greater consequences.  To be quite honest, it would take a second or longer to realize what was happening if an attacker grabbed you from behind or on the side, so chances are they will lock the hold in.  Then what do you do?  If you train everything as an "attempted", then what happens when your reaction time isn't what it should be?  Do you train with these types of variables in mind?  Just curious.  Does anybody have any drills they work?   or perhaps further concerns, questions, or answers? *



No offense but you really do sound like you have been reading my stuff for years. I've always said the same thing. This is why I don't get invited to camps. I invite those questions and provide physical answers. Keep thinking the way you are thinking.


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## SingingTiger (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *I'm not "grinding" anything.  Jeez man, you need to relax.  I was under the impression that forums were designed to stimulate conversation.  You don't have to agree with me on anything, I'm just looking to see what other people are doing.*



That may be, but I read your first few posts exactly the same way that Robert did.  When someone writes a question followed with a command to "explain," it doesn't sound like you're _just_ trying to see what other people are doing, it sounds like you're trying to see what other people are doing so that you can correct them.  Asking whether or not anyone is "beginning to see" where you're going only reinforces that interpretation.

I've learned a lot by reading these boards.  I could probably learn a lot from you.  I'll be more open to it if it doesn't sound like you have an axe to grind, but that's just me, your mileage may vary.

Rich


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## jeffkyle (Jan 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *We have always trained that way with grabs being completed. Of course some rediculed me for being "silly" because it makes more sense to move before they do if possible. But, what if it isn't possible? What happens when they do grab you and lift? What would you say if I told you I could teach you  to keep them from being able to lift you. What if I could insure that both of your feet remain firmly planted on the ground for your next action. If you can't "Survive The Initial Assault," you can't move to retaliation can you? *



You have my curiousity aroused....


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Jan 23, 2003)

> When someone writes a question followed with a command to "explain," it doesn't sound like you're just trying to see what other people are doing, it sounds like you're trying to see what other people are doing so that you can correct them.



I asked a yes or no question but was looking to go a little more in depth than this, that is why I followed with EXPLAIN.  If you will look back, I still received simple yes or no answers.  Maybe next time I should type explain please, but maybe next time some of you shouldn't be so sensitive.  Even if I was advocating throwing out all of the techniques and replacing it with techniques performed from a handstand what would it matter?  It wouldn't affect you.  This is simply a media that was created to aide in the exchange of ideas and creativity, yet everytime someone get's on here to ask a question they are labeled as a heretic for QUESTIONING MR PARKER's ART.

I'm not questioning Mr. Parker's art, I was simply asking if what you were doing worked.  I was hoping that people would be willing to share stories, much like Brother John did.   I changed the statement to "do your kenpo techniques work...." because I know that kenpo has techs against hold and grabs, but how many associations are represented here?  I don't know what everyone out there is doing, so I tried to be as open ended and as inclusive as possible.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *  If you train everything as an "attempted", then what happens when your reaction time isn't what it should be?  Do you train with these types of variables in mind?  Just curious.  Does anybody have any drills they work?   or perhaps further concerns, questions, or answers? *



We are told to say the attack as a grab or hold to our oponent when he/she doesn't know the tech.

Holds and grabs from behind, with a lapse of time to avoid knowing exactly when the attack is coming is nce.


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