# Thoughts on Yim WC



## MacPedro (Jun 28, 2011)

Guys,

Ive been thinking about the story of Yim Wing Chun and a thought occurred I would like to throw out there for discussion. Its probably been voiced before here but Im newJ
If the tale of the origin of Wing Chun is a fabrication we can still learn/deduce 3 things.
1. Whoever made it up wanted us to know that this is an art where the weak may overcome the strong.
2. Whoever made it up wanted to show us that the principles can be utilised in combat in a short period of time. Before your overly amorous suitor comes a knocking.
3. We are not supposed to view Ng Mui (without whom the art would not have left the Southern Shaolin Temple) as the most important in the Wing Chun history. The person of most importance is the person its named after, the first student, the person who embraced Wing Chun concepts and made them their own.

From a more personal point of view I feel perhaps WC has to be a fractured art. This melting pot is its strength not its weakness. This seems too much of a good thing for the story to be anything other than a parable. As well as everything else Wing Chun is also a diagnostic honing tool, an engine of re-invention and a means to update itself. A living martial art (but only if we ensure we share our points of view and are willing to be open).
Regards,
Pedro J

Further reading
http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/truthrevealed.php

P.S. I am not trying to sell this as 'fact' I am mearly taking a rough stab at motives for the structure of the story...because I thought it may be of interest.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Jun 28, 2011)

MacPedro said:


> Guys,
> 
> I&#8217;ve been thinking about the story of Yim Wing Chun and a thought occurred I would like to throw out there for discussion. It&#8217;s probably been voiced before here but I&#8217;m newJ
> If the tale of the origin of Wing Chun is a fabrication we can still learn/deduce 3 things.
> ...




One thing i've learned is that people in general sometimes need a back story to get an idea of the strength or value of something they can't understand the first time they see it, Though we have no way of confirming this and what i'm about to say is speculation couldn't it be possible that the story of ng mui was one of the less brutal stories that was brought to light , perhaps passed down by the practitioner of the art in its early days to a student to give him an idea of WC's strength, if you think about it if wing chun originated in a shaolin temple then it would be fairly obvious that raids for food and supplies would be a common occourance and that the monks who first developed this system really felt a need to develop it because of the nature of their attackers? Ofcourse the story that has been passed down could be specualtion too since we have no way of checking although i think one thing is certain , there was a need for a quick effective system for self defense and wing chun was born.

 the three points you mentioned i can agree with but even if wc was like a melting pot , I think it is complete in no way incomplete. For me , it is probably my knowledge that is incomplete. 

Regards 
HLF


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## Domino (Jun 29, 2011)

I see the story parallel to examples I am given during class but true or not, lovely story.


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## Nabakatsu (Jun 29, 2011)

Something I Was told by my Dai Sifu, do with it what you will, was this:
The idea that Ng mui was weak and thus the style she created was for weaker opponents to overcome stronger opponents is both silly and deleterious. Why one may ask?
Well, for starters, if Ng Mui was a master of shaolin kung fu before she made Wing Chun, she'd have to be quite strong! all that tiger kung fu and such.. she'd be flexible, agile, strong, patient, balanced, ect ect, these things are important to all forms of kung fu, from what little I know 
The other aspect to this is, it creates and excuse for wing chun men and women, to not be in good physical condition, if your going to train a martial art, you should have some physical prowess, the best you can do anyways, certainly some will have limitations. It's important to train hard and be in good shape if you want to make this system work against other skill practitioners of different arts, or just against bigger stronger faster people.
Just some food for thought.
Cheers!


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 29, 2011)

I believe in one of Ip Chun&#8217;s books he even questions the origin story that has Wing Chun coming from Ng Mui to Yim Wing Chun

The thing about Chinese origin stories is sometimes they are changed or linked to a famous person of the time or roughly from that time or a historical person known at that time to gain legitimacy 

That however does not mean that the origin of Wing Chun coming from Ng Mui is not true&#8230; but it cannot be proven historically at this time as far as I know


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## zepedawingchun (Jun 29, 2011)

http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/truthrevealed.php

This may not be how it really happened, but, in my guesstimation, what actually occurred probably isn't much different than this. If you've never read or heard this story, you owe it to yourself to do that. The pros and cons make good sense and actually makes you want to question everything. Which is what we are supposed to do in WC anyway, right?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 29, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/truthrevealed.php
> 
> This may not be how it really happened, but, in my guesstimation, what actually occurred probably isn't much different than this. If you've never read or heard this story, you owe it to yourself to do that. The pros and cons make good sense and actually makes you want to question everything. Which is what we are supposed to do in WC anyway, right?


 
May or may not be true, what is the Wing Chun Museum's source?

I can give you multiple reputable sources that Zhang Sanfeng created Taijiquan on Wudang Mountain but there has not yet been a historical scholar in or out of China that can prove Zhang Sanfeng ever existed. But there are a whole lot of real Chinese Taijiquan masters that had and have no doubt of his existence

I will give the article this though, Shaolin Temple was very good at documentation and if there is no documentation of Ng Moi from Shaolin that origin stories validity is not looking good


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Jun 29, 2011)

Maybe this is what they call a legend?


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## geezer (Jun 29, 2011)

I tend to agree with _MacPedro_. Origin stories in kung-fu like have survived, like so much treasured folklore, partly because they are good stories that touch a sympathetic cord in people, and also in part because they embody lessons and values relevant to their context. Ultimately, the historical accuracy of these stories cannot be ascertained. But their relevance to the concepts of Wing Chun are clear. Among the ideas conveyed are that:

1. WC came from Shaolin, but is new and different, designed to be more efficient and effective
2. By eliminating inefficient, complex, and  overly specialized moves, WC can be learned relatively quickly.
3. Since it's movements "borrow your opponent's power" even an old woman or young girl could use this system effectively.
4. In the hands of a skilled and strong boxer, like Wing Chun's husband Leung Bok Chau (and the masters who came after him), this system is unsurpassed in effectiveness.
5. Wing Chun should be a morally righteous art to be used to help the weak and oppressed fight against injustice and aggression.

In other words, pretty much what _Mac P._ already said. Kinda the WC version of "George Washington and the Cherry Tree" or to use something that's been in the news lately, "The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere". 

And _Nabakatsu_, your Dai Sifu's opinions are not surprising considering how big and strong he himself is (see number 4 in my list above). He probably doesn't have much patience with small, weak and lazy WC people making excuses for their soft approach to training and then justifying it with a bunch of mystical "internal" hogwash backed up by a distorted version of this story. Well,_ there goes my excuse!_ Rats.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 29, 2011)

I have seen it suggested, I believe by Yang Ming-Jwing, that Wing Chun came from Fukien White Crane.

If you look at videos of Fukien White Crane, there are some things that look similar to Wing Chun.


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## geezer (Jun 29, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I have seen it suggested, I believe by Yang Ming-Jwing, that Wing Chun came from Fukien White Crane.
> 
> If you look at videos of Fukien White Crane, there are some things that look similar to Wing Chun.



Many others have come to the same conclusions, and some have specifically identified the sub-branch of _Fukien Weng Chun White Crane_ as a likely ancestor. Others say it was a branch of White Crane practiced in the _Weng Chun Precinct_ of Fo'Shan. Even some of the stories about Ng Mui identified her as expert in _Crane Boxing_, told of her taking refuge in the _White Crane Temple_ on Mt. Tai Leung, and of her famously observing _a fight between a crane and snake_, (or in other stories, a stork and fox). Who knows? Certainly there are still vestiges of Crane, Snake and other systems in Wing Chun. I look at many Southern styles as "cousins" of WC. Still, Wing Chun not only has different techniques than these possible forebearers, but a different philosophy as well. It was that that I alluded to in my comments above regarding our origin stories.


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## yak sao (Jun 29, 2011)

Could the name "Ng Mui" be another clue into the system?

_Ng _being "five" in cantonese, and _Mui, _I believe is "plum flower"......the footwork pattern for the wooden dummy.

Also, the plum flower, in Chinese culture, stands for courage and hope......and it blossoms at the end of winter from a seemilngly lifeless branch

How is all this simply coincidence?


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## wtxs (Jun 29, 2011)

yak sao said:


> Could the name "Ng Mui" be another clue into the system?
> 
> _Ng _being "five" in cantonese, and _Mui, _I believe is "plum flower"......the footwork pattern for the wooden dummy.
> 
> ...



Ng Mui is a name given to the nun -  you're right that "Ng = 5, however, "Mui = daughter ... it identifies her sibling standing within a family or group, which she is the 5th.  This naming practice is very informal and common ... much like the saying my #2 son or my 2nd born.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 29, 2011)

Translation depends on tone and is best done in written Chinese not Wade Giles or pinyin


http://www.kwanfamily.info/culture/familytitles_table.php


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## Eric_H (Jun 29, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> May or may not be true, what is the Wing Chun Museum's source?



At the time, it was mostly my Sifu, Garrett Gee.

In Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, we acknowledge the term Ng Mui as an energy concept. It is more or less a retelling of the 5 elements theory through Wing Chun's eyes. "Yim Wing Chun" can also be understood as "keep secret the wing chun." Basically, the whole story is filled with different codewords.

I wrote a small article about the crane and snake theory and how it applies (or in this case doesn't) to my own lineage. If you'd like, give it a read here:

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?3087-Crane-and-Snake-and-what-they-mean-to-HFY-Wing-Chun


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 30, 2011)

I was looking for this old post.

This is from the book - Wing Chun Kung Fu, Traditional Chinese Kung Fu for Self-Defense and Health - By Ip Chun with Michael Tse

Ip Chun talks about origin


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## mook jong man (Jun 30, 2011)

In our lineage it is a stork and a rodent , and I can certainly see the similarity in our techniques to a stork deflecting with its wings .

But at the end of the day who cares where it comes from , it's mine now , and yours and whoever elses that makes the effort to get off their **** and do the daily training that is required.


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## bully (Jul 1, 2011)

In the Foshan form I learnt there is strong elements of snake and crane which is not in any Ip Man lineage which I have seen (I am not saying I have seen them all!!). These elements seem to have been removed from the system by Ip Man. So it would seem logical to say the crane and snake story would be an influence to the system.

Will video it soon.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 1, 2011)

I could be very wrong, and take it for what it is worth since I am more a Taiji/Xingyi person than Wing Chun, but I think tracking down any origin based on what Ip Man taught (lineage to Ip Man) would be difficult since it is my understanding that he pretty much did not teach any two people exactly the same. From what I can see and what I have been told Ip Ching and Ip Chun do not even teach the exact same forms or the exact same way.


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## Eric_H (Jul 1, 2011)

> I could be very wrong, and take it for what it is worth since I am more a Taiji/Xingyi person than Wing Chun, but I think tracking down any origin based on what Ip Man taught (lineage to Ip Man) would be difficult since it is my understanding that he pretty much did not teach any two people exactly the same. From what I can see and what I have been told Ip Ching and Ip Chun do not even teach the exact same forms or the exact same way.



The hard thing is, GM Yip learned at least 3 styles of Wing/Weng chun in his life. Tracking down all of those 3 histories makes it pretty tough. 

Bully - are you doing cho ga wing chun?


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## bully (Jul 1, 2011)

Eric_H said:


> The hard thing is, GM Yip learned at least 3 styles of Wing/Weng chun in his life. Tracking down all of those 3 histories makes it pretty tough.
> 
> *Bully - are you doing cho ga wing chun*?


 
No I try to do Ip Man lineage, sort of a bastard son of Kamon in a way. However when i was in China I was lucky enough to spend 5 weeks at Kung Fu school which taught Foshan WC, not sure exactly what flavour but I have looked for the forms on Youtube etc cannot find them.

So I know SLT and CK (not mastered, just know;-)) and bumble along doing these but I have the added bonus of Ershianshi (the Foshan form) which traditionally is taught before SLT so my master told me. They have 4 empty hand forms compared to our 3.

Alot more traditional in a Northern Kung Fu way if you know what I mean?? Some of the moves in the form would not be considered Wing Chun as we know it. I appreciated it for what it was and will continue to practice it. I see it as an addition to my training.


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## Eric_H (Jul 1, 2011)

bully said:


> No I try to do Ip Man lineage, sort of a bastard son of Kamon in a way. However when i was in China I was lucky enough to spend 5 weeks at Kung Fu school which taught Foshan WC, not sure exactly what flavour but I have looked for the forms on Youtube etc cannot find them.
> 
> So I know SLT and CK (not mastered, just know;-)) and bumble along doing these but I have the added bonus of Ershianshi (the Foshan form) which traditionally is taught before SLT so my master told me. They have 4 empty hand forms compared to our 3.
> 
> Alot more traditional in a Northern Kung Fu way if you know what I mean?? Some of the moves in the form would not be considered Wing Chun as we know it. I appreciated it for what it was and will continue to practice it. I see it as an addition to my training.



Bully,

That sounds pretty cool, if you ever find a vid of it please share. I know that some of the WC that mixed with Omei has a definite snake/crane emphasis, but it seems to be more from the Omei side than the WC. 

Thinking about it, I had once seen a WC branch that did a form of long range fighting very similar to northern shaolin, then was more like "standard" WC once they got in close. Wonder if it was the same one you got to learn.


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## bully (Jul 1, 2011)

Will do Eric, I am ill at the mo and cant train which is frustrating. I will film myself doing the form when I am better. I have all 4 forms of the lineage on video but I promised I would not make them public. So the best thing I can offer is doing the one I know myself....wont be pretty though :-( but you guys will get the idea.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Jul 1, 2011)

awesome , apart from the fact that you're ill bully.


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## geezer (Jul 1, 2011)

Eric_H said:


> ...The hard thing is, GM Yip learned at least 3 styles of Wing/Weng chun in his life...



Three or more. His core was Leung Jan lineage from Chan Wah Shun/ Ng Chun So, and later  from Leung Bic. But there were others too. Anybody that obsessed with, and gifted at martial arts learns like a sponge. Great minds are ever curious.  True masters creatively assimilate information. Disciples simply repeat what they are taught. Seems like that's something we all need to keep in mind.


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## Asmo (Jul 1, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> In our lineage it is a stork and a rodent , and I can certainly see the similarity in our techniques to a stork deflecting with its wings .
> 
> But at the end of the day who cares where it comes from , it's mine now , and yours and whoever elses that makes the effort to get off their **** and do the daily training that is required.



Really? I was told snake and crane. They must have changed it, or maybe the instructor who told me believed that snake and crane was correct. I agree with you about the similarity to a stork, but that could also be analogous to a crane. 

Then again that could lead one into theorising that it did come from Fukien White Crane. I'm not too hung up on the origins, but the theories are interesting nonetheless.


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## mook jong man (Jul 1, 2011)

Asmo said:


> Really? I was told snake and crane. They must have changed it, or maybe the instructor who told me believed that snake and crane was correct. I agree with you about the similarity to a stork, but that could also be analogous to a crane.
> 
> Then again that could lead one into theorising that it did come from Fukien White Crane. I'm not too hung up on the origins, but the theories are interesting nonetheless.



I think in the blue book it refers to a stork and a rodent if memory serves correctly , but who knows next week it could be a budgie versus a shitzu.

But the recurring theme of the whole thing is that it is always some type of bird using it's wings to simultaneous counter attack using it's wings to deflect attacks while it counter attacks using it's beak or feet.

The only thing that changes is the type of bird and the type of animal it is fighting.


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## Asmo (Jul 1, 2011)

Yeah, true. I'll have to check the blue book.


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## geezer (Jul 2, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> ...next week it could be *a budgie versus a shitzu.*



I want that on my school's tee-shirt!


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 2, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> I think in the blue book it refers to a stork and a rodent if memory serves correctly , but who knows next week it could be a budgie versus a shitzu.
> 
> But the recurring theme of the whole thing is that it is always some type of bird using it's wings to simultaneous counter attack using it's wings to deflect attacks while it counter attacks using it's beak or feet.
> 
> The only thing that changes is the type of bird and the type of animal it is fighting.


 
There are similar stories in multiple Chinese martial arts, Taijiquan being one of them

After reading the history and or origin stories about several CMA styles I have concluded that pretty mush all either started with some type of bird fighting a snake and somewhere along the line a mystical being or priest in a cave gets involved that or it comes from Guan Yu


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Jul 2, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> There are similar stories in multiple Chinese martial arts, Taijiquan being one of them
> 
> After reading the history and or origin stories about several CMA styles I have concluded that pretty mush all either started with some type of bird fighting a snake and somewhere along the line a mystical being or priest in a cave gets involved that or it comes from Guan Yu



Well , they're legends xp


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