# The Reality of Weapons



## Don Roley (Jul 21, 2006)

My teacher, Hiroshi Nagase, always stresses that this art was built around the reality of weapons. We use them, we train to go against them and even though we do unarmed stuff most of the time, there is always a connection with weapons.

I have been thinking of something for a long time and kind of want to throw it out here. The following is a work by Darren Laur on the knife. http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/edged_weapon.htm Most shocking is the following section.



> "I'm a big believer in, "don't tell me, show me" so in early 1992 I conducted an  empirical video research study. I had 85 police officers participate in a  scenario based training session where unknown to them they would be  attacked with a knife. The attacker, who was dressed in a combative suit,  was told that during mid way of the contact, they were to pull a knife that they  had been concealing, flash it directly at the officer saying "I'm going to kill you  pig" and then engage the officer physically. The results were remarkable:
> - 3/85 saw the knife prior to contact
> - 10/85 realized that they were being stabbed repeatedly during the scenario
> - 72/85 did not realize that they were being assaulted with a knife until the  scenario was over, and the officers were advised to look at their uniforms to  see the simulated thrusts and slices left behind by the chalked training knives."



So, despite the fact that someone made an effort to flash the knife during the scenario, only 3 out of 85 could tell that the guy had one before it was used on them.

So I take this to mean that there really is no "Unarmed" techniques in self defense. You can't have something you would do if the guy has a knife and something else that you would do if he did not have one. Because you probably will not be able to tell if he has one or not.

And this is not even taking into account the idea that the guy may not show you the knife before he uses it on you. Kelly McMann, writing as Jim Grover, lists the following techniques being taught in today's prisons that all revolve around the idea of hiding the knife before sticking it in the other guy; The Smash and Slash, The Jailyard, The Jackknife and the Slap and Tap. In fact, the only technique he mentions that does not hide the knife is called Bulldogging. You can read about them on page 163-165 of his book, "Street Smarts, Firearms and Personal  Security."

These are the slang terms given to these techniques in prison. So they are known and practiced by criminals. If you are talking about self defense you can't ignore the reality that the most likely to try to kill you with a knife are training so that they make you think they don't have a knife.

So I think we can throw the idea that you can go into a battle in either a 'unarmed' or 'armed' mindset. The law and morality will not let you treat a guy who throws punches at you with the same amount of force that you would if you knew he had a knife. But you can't treat him as if he were just going to try to punch you. You have to assume that he may have a weapon and will pull it at some point- if it is not already hidden in his hand.

So far, a lot of folks may be asking what is the point. All of this may be something you have heard already. But my point is that a lot of artists seem to look at combat like it was a tennis match. You throw something, then maybe the other guys throws something.

Well, when I look at Hatsumi I see pool. To be more exact, I see Hatsumi as a pool shark. Once he has the shot, the other guy never gets a chance to make another. He clears the table and the other guy is just along for the ride. If they guy has a knife, he never gets to use the thing. He can't touch Hatsumi with anything. Hatsumi controls his entire body so that a hand of  the other guy can't reach him. For unarmed stuff, a guy who can scratch you, and not much else, is not a credible threat. But if the guy has hidden a knife in his hand, then that scratch can kill. Hatsumi does not let him get that hand anywhere near him.

But I see a lot of Bujinkan folks that seem to be doing taijutsu as if it were a tennis match. Instead of luring in a committed attack and then taking control of the guy, it is a case of give and take. And you don't want to do that with a knife. In some cases I see Bujinkan members allow touches to them that can't do much damage as long as it is merely an unarmed situation. But as I said, you can't assume that you will know that it is an unarmed situation.

So I think more Bujinkan members should take a look at what Hatsumi does and try to watch for what I am talking about. If you look for it, it will become clear. Hatsumi is playing pool, not tennis. A guy had a knife would never be able to use it on him because he always moves in such way that he would be safe from it.

People might want to read more about knife fighting realities and how much they rely on surprise and deception by reading Marc MacYoung's web site at www.nononsenseselfdefense.com. He was also the guy who first drew contrasts with fighting and the way a pool shark works.

But once you read it, and take a good, long look at Hatsumi, I really hope that I see a lot less tennis going on in the dojo.


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## Jonathan Randall (Jul 21, 2006)

Great post, Don!

I heard the same sort of information on the Krav Maga "On the Edge" training video. It REALLY, REALLY opened my eyes. OTOH, my experience being robbed at knifepoint many years ago was that it was an ambush as well, and NO, I did not see the knife until he had jumped over the counter while I was distracted, grabbed my collar with one hand and stuck a small blade of some sort (didn't really see what) into my throat.

My feeling as well is that most strictly MMA and sport martial artists would have little, if any chance against a knife ambush. Only those who were already streetwise would have a chance. This type of scenerio MUST be SPECIFICALLY drilled and trained.


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## Don Roley (Jul 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Only those who were already streetwise would have a chance. This type of scenerio MUST be SPECIFICALLY drilled and trained.



Damn, that reminds me that I forgot to mention my experiences with Bill the Knife.

There is a guy who lives in Japan who I have given that knick name. Obviously because he is so damn good with a knife. He has a drone for a Spyderco Delica just like me. Unlike me, he carries it on him somewhere while training. He does not fool with guys he has just met. But if you have some sort of trust with him he may pull the thing out as you try to do a technique and just run it across part of you.

That kind of wakes you up to the idea of keeping your attention on possible weapons. And Hatsumi has us do techniques where we have a weapon hidden when we do them. So I should not be talking about something outside of most people's experiences.

Keep a rubber knife on you while being the uke sometimes and have the other guy do the same with you. But do it only with trustworthy folks that are serious about training. There is an entire thread here about how some things like this get into people throwing crappy techniques and such because they want to get into the counter attack and the battling of egos on the mat.


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## MRE (Jul 21, 2006)

Thanks for the info.  I do not study taijutsu, but I am sure this mindset will help me in my self defense training as well.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 24, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> My teacher, Hiroshi Nagase, always stresses that this art was built around the reality of weapons. We use them, we train to go against them and even though we do unarmed stuff most of the time, there is always a connection with weapons.
> 
> I have been thinking of something for a long time and kind of want to throw it out here. The following is a work by Darren Laur on the knife. http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/edged_weapon.htm Most shocking is the following section.
> 
> ...


 
May I have your permission to post this on my blog?


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## Dale Seago (Jul 24, 2006)

Don, just FYI, Andy is not a Bujinkan practitioner; but he is a fellow Moderator over at http://swordforum.com and a good guy. . .


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 24, 2006)

Thanks for the kind words, Dale.  Yeah, not a Bujinkan student, but Dale's known me for like 4-5 years now from SFI, and I'm proud to call him my friend.


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## Don Roley (Jul 25, 2006)

Well any friend of Dale's..... had better keep his hands where I can see them. :2pistols: 

I give you permision on the condition that you edit in something I missed. The line,



> So I think we can throw the idea that you can go into a battle in either a 'unarmed' or 'armed' mindset.



should read



> So I think we can throw *out* the idea that you can go into a battle in either a*n* 'unarmed' or 'armed' mindset.



Otherwise, I have no problem with the idea.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 25, 2006)

Thanks

*Moves away slowly to his blog with both hands in plain sight making no sudden moves*


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## ginshun (Jul 25, 2006)

I have seen that study before.   I think there is actually a video on youtube about knife defense that brings it up.  I tend to agree, if you are actually training for self defence as opposed to, I don't know, any other reason I suppose, then you should always be of the mindset that the other person could be concealing a weapon.  

I really like the idea of having a training knife and bringing it out at random times.

I'll see if I can find the video.


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## Dale Seago (Jul 25, 2006)

Some further views on "the reality of weapons" and how their presence influences things, from the head of the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program:



> *LET'S  ROLL???*​ *The Realities of Armored and  Weapons Grappling*
> 
> Lieutenant Colonel G.  H. Bristol, USMC
> I still speak to a lot  of young Marines about the MCMAP.  I still see them get excited about their  first belt; the first time they spar; and the first time they do a technique and  it works.  Like them, I remember a lot of firsts, and, most of all, my  first combative love:  JUDO.  I have had a longstanding affair with  Judo - I just passed 38 years of training.   I still have my  competition medals; old judogi; bad knees; and great memories.  I would not  change a thing.
> ...


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## Bigshadow (Jul 25, 2006)

Great post Dale!  I see Lt. Col. Bristol has quite a different view than the Army guys I was watching train on the Military channel where they were doing BJJ on a mat indoors.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 25, 2006)

That is a very nice post Dale!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## ginshun (Jul 25, 2006)

Here is the knife defense video on Youtube that I mentioned if anybody is interested.  Basic conclusion is that if the other person has a knife, get the **** away. Unless it is absolutely impossible to get away, running is a better option than fighting, regardless of your training.  

Be warned, it does contain some graphic pics of knife wounds.


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## Shizen Shigoku (Jul 30, 2006)

This reminds me of a situation that always seems to come up in the dojo:

We'll be practicing _hanbo kata_; defender (_tori_) has the stick, attacker (_uke_) is unarmed and throws a punch. Invariably, some beginner will ask one of the following: If _uke_, "why would I throw a punch at someone holding a stick?!" / If _tori_, "why would I use a stick against an unarmed person?!"

All I have to say to them is: "What if the seemingly unarmed person actually has a knife and you just don't see it?"

Or sometimes: "What if the stick is concealed?"

This usually elicits an "Ohhhhh. . . " and some nods of appreciation, then training gets a little more serious.


Just thought of something else that could be applicable:

Locks / reversals (_gyakugi_) done from a grab (_omote kote gyaku dori_ from _katamune dori_, e.g.) are usually first practiced from a static position after _uke_ has a firm grasp - to simplify things and also to show how it works from a worst-case scenario. 

After getting an understanding of the technique however, it is better to perform it on the move and before uke is able to get a secure grab. 

I suppose another good reason for that is: What if there is a small sharp object in that grabbing hand? 


Be safe,
train hard.

:bows:


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## Bigshadow (Jul 30, 2006)

ginshun said:
			
		

> Here is the knife defense video on Youtube that I mentioned if anybody is interested.  Basic conclusion is that if the other person has a knife, get the **** away. Unless it is absolutely impossible to get away, running is a better option than fighting, regardless of your training.
> 
> Be warned, it does contain some graphic pics of knife wounds.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=knife+defense&v=7tHf_pvv4zo


I wouldn't call that video a knife defense video.  IMHO, the best part of that video is the section that shows the police officers getting attacked.  That is much closer to reality than the last section where they were dueling. 

The one thing in common that I saw with the police officers, were they stayed in the same place, never moved. They would have gotten clobbered whether there was a knife or not.  

IMHO the video has really nothing of value in it.  It seems to be more a marketing video.


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## budoboy (Jul 31, 2006)

I think the "3 out of 85 officers never knew they were attacked by a knife" is misleading since they were attacked with a chalk marker.  I bet they might have had a clue if they were stabbed or slashed for real.

Jeff


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## Kreth (Jul 31, 2006)

budoboy said:
			
		

> I think the "3 out of 85 officers never knew they were attacked by a knife" is misleading since they were attacked with a chalk marker. I bet they might have had a clue if they were stabbed or slashed for real.


That's not always the case. A former instructor of mine was stabbed in the back, and he told me that he thought he'd been punched until he felt the blade shifting around in his back. Some of the officers in that video may very well have been dead before they realized the attacker had a knife, had it been for real.


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## cloud (Aug 19, 2006)

Great post, highly educated. The website you gave has huge amount of information, especially the statistical data.

Cloud


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 20, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I wouldn't call that video a knife defense video. IMHO, the best part of that video is the section that shows the police officers getting attacked. That is much closer to reality than the last section where they were dueling.
> 
> The one thing in common that I saw with the police officers, were they stayed in the same place, never moved. They would have gotten clobbered whether there was a knife or not.
> 
> IMHO the video has really nothing of value in it. It seems to be more a marketing video.


 
You are right.  They never moved.  If they had moved off line and drawn their handgun they probably would have been able to shoot the attacker easily.  I know this because we have done this drill in my training hall with air pistols and rubber knives.  Staying on line with around 21 feet of distance will probably get you stabbed or slashed.  However, as soon as we practice side stepping and drawing the person with the knife cannot change direction once they have seriously committed themselves and then they are vulnerable to be shot.

The other note about the video is that when you observe someone with their hand behind their back, that should send up some serious *red flags*!  What are they *hiding*?  That would be an excellent moment to quickly back up create space and pull your handgun and tell them to get on the ground.  The subtle signals that people give off need to be picked up in order to survive in a violent encounter.

The last dueling portion of the video is really just that.  The person without the knife should have sidestepped closed and entangled/trapped the other person.  To always stay close and kick and basically do nothing is going to ensure that you get cut and stabbed.  How realistic was that, if you cannot run away or you do not attempt any sort of control of the opponent.  They just did that to prove their point that you will be cut and nothing more.  

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bigshadow (Aug 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> You are right.  They never moved.  If they had moved off line and drawn their handgun they probably would have been able to shoot the attacker easily.  I know this because we have done this drill in my training hall with air pistols and rubber knives.  Staying on line with around 21 feet of distance will probably get you stabbed or slashed.  However, as soon as we practice side stepping and drawing the person with the knife cannot change direction once they have seriously committed themselves and then they are vulnerable to be shot.
> 
> The other note about the video is that when you observe someone with their hand behind their back, that should send up some serious *red flags*!  What are they *hiding*?  That would be an excellent moment to quickly back up create space and pull your handgun and tell them to get on the ground.  The subtle signals that people give off need to be picked up in order to survive in a violent encounter.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100%.  The last part I bolded is dead on!  I couldn't have said it better!


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## Don Roley (Aug 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> The other note about the video is that when you observe someone with their hand behind their back, that should send up some serious *red flags*!  What are they *hiding*?  That would be an excellent moment to quickly back up create space and pull your handgun and tell them to get on the ground.  The subtle signals that people give off need to be picked up in order to survive in a violent encounter.



Yes, but it is not enough. If someone conceals their hands it should send off red flags. But even if you can see their hands, some guys can get to and deploy their blades if you lose sight of their hands (such as in a grappling situation) for even a second.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 21, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Yes, but it is not enough. If someone conceals their hands it should send off red flags. But even if you can see their hands, some guys can get to and deploy their blades if you lose sight of their hands (such as in a grappling situation) for even a second.


 
Hey Don,

There is absolutely no doubt that someone can deploy a knife in a split second. (I know because I practice deploying them)  However besides the obvious concealing hands, hand behind the back we need to pick up those subtle signals that tell us that we could be in danger and then act on them.  That is exactly one of the reasons why I like Budo Taijutsu so much. (sensitivity)  If we can be sensitive to what is going on around us then we have a chance to pick up those not so obvious clues.  

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Shizen Shigoku (Aug 22, 2006)

To share:
'
http://www.ejmas.com/tin/2006tin/tinart_taylor_0506.html

Enjoy.


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## Don Roley (Aug 22, 2006)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> To share:
> '
> http://www.ejmas.com/tin/2006tin/tinart_taylor_0506.html
> 
> Enjoy.



Not the point of this thread.

There is no doubt that what we do can be deadly. There is no doubt that these arts were built around a reality of killing someone else.

But my point was not that what we do is "too deadly for the street" but rather that other folks might be quite deadly themselves. That low punch may not be a low punch, but rather a concealed knife strike. Do you treat it like a punch or do you treat it like a potential knife attack?

Hey, not every fight is going to involve deadly weapons. And not every trip in the car will reslult in a life- threatening accident. But do you want to train for the best case scenario or the worst? If you train as if they guy does not have a weapon and you run across someone who does, you are dead. As for myself, I always use my seatbelt even though the majority of my trips do not involve impacts with other cars.

That is my point. It is not about us having weapons, though many of us carry more blades than a combine. It is about accepting the reality that someone else may have a weapon and may not be kind enough to show us it before attacking. And we have to take that into account in the stuff we train in and the way we train.


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