# Validity of the Olympic Protests



## RandomPhantom700 (Apr 9, 2008)

I'm sure everyone's aware of the ongoing protests of the Olympics being held in China due to China's slightly less-then-stellar treatment of Tibet. I gotta say that I myself have mixed emotions. On the one hand, as a believer in non-violent dissent and changing things through civic protest, I'm proud to hear of so many being willing to stand up for the rights of others. On the other hand, the Olympics have their history of being an international event for nations and peoples to come together, and might the protesters be spoiling such? Or did China already spoil it before hand through their actions? 

As a note, I have to admire the torch-runner mentioned here, http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24024416/, who'd brought along a Tibetan flag and planned to protest while still running the torch. Too bad the runner was grabbed as soon as the flag came out. 

So just to broach the subject, what do you think regarding the protests? Should people really leave their politics at the door when it comes to the Olympics, or is even such a serious international institution a perfectly valid forum for confronting injustices?


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## exile (Apr 9, 2008)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> I'm sure everyone's aware of the ongoing protests of the Olympics being held in China due to China's slightly less-then-stellar treatment of Tibet. I gotta say that I myself have mixed emotions. On the one hand, as a believer in non-violent dissent and changing things through civic protest, I'm proud to hear of so many being willing to stand up for the rights of others. On the other hand, the Olympics have their history of being an international event for nations and peoples to come together, and might the protesters be spoiling such? Or did China already spoil it before hand through their actions?
> 
> As a note, I have to admire the torch-runner mentioned here, http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24024416/, who'd brought along a Tibetan flag and planned to protest while still running the torch. Too bad the runner was grabbed as soon as the flag came out.
> 
> So just to broach the subject, what do you think regarding the protests? Should people really leave their politics at the door when it comes to the Olympics, or is even such a serious international institution a perfectly valid forum for confronting injustices?



But... the Olympics are about nothing _BUT_ international politics!! Why did the East Germans poison a whole generation or two of young athletes with decades of steroid cycles? Why did the French and the Russians do a deal that almost stole the gold from the clear Canadian winners in the pairs figure skating several years ago? Why do poor countries spent millions of dollars to support their elite athletes at a standard of living that well under 1% or so of their general population enjoy? The Olympics are about national standing, reputation, clout within the movement... they're as political as you can get! When those Israeli athletes were murdered 30+ years ago, and the games went merrily on, and not one of the following addresses by IOC presidents even  _alluded_ to what happened in Munich... do you really think that wasn't political? The enormous Cold War symbolism of the 1980 USSR vs. US hockey final...?

Let's face it, RP: international athletics is an extension of war by other means, eh?

Think of it this way: China has been actively trying to expunge the indigenous culture of Tibet ever since the Occupation there. And the IOC decided to _reward_ that behavior by making it clear that fundamental consideration of human rights would play no part in their decision to site the Olympics, just as they did in Berlin in 1936. That's not being apolitical, that's being _amoral,_  to the utmost limits of cynicism.


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## CuongNhuka (Apr 9, 2008)

Wasn't some rule made when the Olympics started up again, that you cann't be in a war/under fire for "supposed" war crimes at the time of an Olympic compition? Therefore, China shouldn't be participating?


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## TheOriginalName (Apr 10, 2008)

When the occupation of Tibet started the western world did nothing but sit back and watch. Now at least people are taking to the streets to show that they are not happy with what is occuring there. 

In my opinion - and i want to stress that - i do not believe China should be allowed to continue to oppress it's population, both Chinese and Tibetan. The western world should take a stand again them and show that what they do it not going to be accepted any more. 

As was previously pointed out - the olympics is a war by other means and the protest at the moment is the first salvo launched at China. I would suspect it's going to get worse the closer they get. 

And to stress, i have no problem with the people of China only they their government.


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## CuongNhuka (Apr 10, 2008)

TheOriginalName said:


> The western world should take a stand again them and show that what they do it not going to be accepted any more.


 
One more country to add to the list of countries McCain wants to invade when he becomes War-Lord. Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, Qatar, Oman, UAE, Turkey, Syrian, Lebanon, Cypress, Jordan, *IRAN*, Pakistan, Algeria, Tunsia, Libya, Egypt, Britian, France, Burma, Mexico, Canada... I think that's about it.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 10, 2008)

What China should be allowed to do or not do has nothing to do with what we want.  The financial string pullers wanted China in Tibet and don't care what the middle men decide to do to the people who live there.  This is why western governments stood by and did nothing for 50 years and its the same reason the west stood by and let the nazi's do what thou wilt.  Follow the money.  These international financial interests fund all sides and get what they want.

It's good that normal, moral, people are expressing themselves even if they don't really know who the real antagonists are.  I hope they disrupt the Olympics so badly that not even the media can cover it up.

It might be a wake up call for a more people to start asking a simple question...how did this happen?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 10, 2008)

a question

So China decides to say okie dokie Tibet is free....now what?

Can they support themselves, can they maintain their infrastructure, can they keep things up and running will they all still have food to eat and schools to go to. Likely not so now who do they turn to for help? 

I will give you 3 guesses and the 1st 2 don't count.

I have said it before and I will say it again. 

The average Tibetan does not care anymore about who is in charge in Beijing than the average Chinese does. All they care about is day to day life which is not any where near as oppressed as many would want you to believe. 

They want to have electricity, phones, schools and food which they have. And if you check the history they did not have much of prior to the entry of the PRC into Tibet. 

However the PRC's entry was incredibly violent and vicious and a WHOLE lot of Tibetans got killed in the process and that is far form good. But that was not when China started to control Tibet, check the history it is rather long and China has been in Tibet much longer than the PRC's entry.

I do not agree with all of the PRC practices in Tibet or in China (and frankly they do not care what I think) but folks please please please read up on the history of the region and look into the average life of the average Tibetan in Tibet before you go off and attack some person carrying a torch or, as I saw in a local paper today, get in the face of some little Chinese lady who knows NOTHING about it and start screaming about Tibet. 

I will stop here or a rather long off topic rant on protestors will start.

OK have at me.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 10, 2008)

CuongNhuka said:


> Wasn't some rule made when the Olympics started up again, that you cann't be in a war/under fire for "supposed" war crimes at the time of an Olympic compition? Therefore, China shouldn't be participating?



Under that rule, many people / countries would argue that the US shouldn't be allowed to participate as well.

Is the Chinese control of Tibet worse then all of the occasions the US has overthrown a government because they didn't like it?



Xue Sheng said:


> The average Tibetan does not care anymore about who is in charge in Beijing than the average Chinese does. All they care about is day to day life which is not any where near as oppressed as many would want you to believe.



I agree, most people seem to completely ignore the history of the region.  Tibet as part of China goes back a long ways.  And life under the Dalai Lama was not a religious paradise, it was more of a religous dictatorship with a feudal system.  Most of the population where basically slaves to the monk class and have a life expectancy of 36.

Make them Islmamic instead of Buhhdist, give it a different media spin and I imagine a lot of people would have been crying for the US to go and "liberate" them from the Dalai Lama.

Tibet is a complex issue, kind of like Iraq.  You can't just say Dalai Lama = good, China = bad.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 10, 2008)

CuongNhuka said:


> Wasn't some rule made when the Olympics started up again, that you cann't be in a war/under fire for "supposed" war crimes at the time of an Olympic compition? Therefore, China shouldn't be participating?



Ummmm ok

What war and what war crimes are the currently in and guilty of 



TheOriginalName said:


> And to stress, i have no problem with the people of China only they their government.



And about 99% of the people of China have no problem with their government so what does that leave you?

And many in China have a big problem with the US government so again what does that leave you?



CuongNhuka said:


> One more country to add to the list of countries McCain wants to invade when he becomes War-Lord. Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, Qatar, Oman, UAE, Turkey, Syrian, Lebanon, Cypress, Jordan, IRAN, Pakistan, Algeria, Tunsia, Libya, Egypt, Britian, France, Burma, Mexico, Canada... I think that's about it.



Yes by all means&#8230; GREAT idea&#8230; invade a nuclear power with the largest standing military in the world 



Andrew Green said:


> I agree, most people seem to completely ignore the history of the region. Tibet as part of China goes back a long ways. And life under the Dalai Lama was not a religious paradise, it was more of a religous dictatorship with a feudal system. Most of the population where basically slaves to the monk class and have a life expectancy of 36.
> 
> Make them Islmamic instead of Buhhdist, give it a different media spin and I imagine a lot of people would have been crying for the US to go and "liberate" them from the Dalai Lama.
> 
> Tibet is a complex issue, kind of like Iraq. You can't just say Dalai Lama = good, China = bad.



BINGO :asian:



As a general comment to those that are declaring China&#8217;s oppression to its people as a reason for anything PLEASE I urge you PLEASE go to china and just look for the oppression that you speak of... but plan on spending a LONG time there because it will be a long search there are just too many Lexus, Toyota and Chevrolets in the way to see it I guess. After that go to Tibet and look for it too. 

And while you are there engage a few of the oppressed people in conversation about the US and you will be AMAZED at the view many have of the US. But it may not be what you expect so you might want to sit down for that one. But then that is only if the oppressed have the time or even care to talk to you at all since they are all to busy being oppressed trying to make money these days.


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## Empty Hands (Apr 10, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> They want to have electricity, phones, schools and food which they have. And if you check the history they did not have much of prior to the entry of the PRC into Tibet.



The ends do not justify the means, nor do current benefits justify current injustices.  The fact that African-Americans have a higher standard of living today then their African cousins does not justify US slavery.  The fact that some beneficial medical knowledge came from Nazi medical experiments does not justify those experiments.  And a higher standard of living today does not justify the invasion of Tibet, nor any current oppression.  

Tibetans should have the same right to self-determination that we all should have.



Xue Sheng said:


> But then that is only if the oppressed have the time or even care to talk to you at all since they are all to busy being oppressed trying to make money these days.



You know, no one likes to think that their home is a force for evil.  All sorts of rationalizations and justifications come into play.  You see it with all those who try to downplay, rationalize or ignore many of the atrocities committed by the US, often using the very same arguments used by the Chinese in regards to Tibet.  The Chinese people are no different in this regard.

I work with a great many Chinese people who came here directly from China.  They will all insist what a great place China is, and how crappy the US is.  However, these same rationalizations and errors creep into their judgments as well (these are all highly educated people, mind you).

One Chinese co-worker insists that the only people killed at Tianamen Square were "criminals", and thus deserved their fate.  Another co-worker insists Tianamen Square never even happened, and that the evidence for the massacre was manufactured by the Western media.  Yet another co-worker forwarded all the non-chinese in my lab a classic piece of propaganda about Tibet and the Lhasa riots, using all the same arguments about how much better off the Tibetans are, and capping it with a conspiracy theory about how the Dalai Lama was orchestrating the Lhasa riots in a cruel bid to regain power.

You are also right that many Chinese do not consider their government oppressive.  Yet, I saw with my own eyes the fear and panic in a newly arrived Chinese coworker who saw a union picket/protest down the street.  He was convinced the government would crack down and arrest anyone nearby.  I wonder where he got that idea?

One has to go with the evidence.  China has little regard for the rights of their governed populace, as a multitude of jailed activists and journalists critical of the government could tell you.  One has to go with the evidence, not the justifications of emotionally involved citizens.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 10, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> The ends do not justify the means, nor do current benefits justify current injustices. The fact that African-Americans have a higher standard of living today then their African cousins does not justify US slavery. The fact that some beneficial medical knowledge came from Nazi medical experiments does not justify those experiments. And a higher standard of living today does not justify the invasion of Tibet, nor any current oppression.
> 
> Tibetans should have the same right to self-determination that we all should have.
> 
> ...


 
Here we go again.

Please point out ANYWHERE in any post I have made where I have said this or even HINTED at this



Empty Hands said:


> and capping it with a conspiracy theory about how the Dalai Lama was orchestrating the Lhasa riots in a cruel bid to regain power.



READ, LEARN the ACTUAL real live history of Tibet and China it is MUCH longer that 50 years. 

And when exactly do you THINK that Invasion occurred? 

Throwing Nazis, Nazi medical experiments and slavery into the mix is all nice for effect and it gets that ooooo factor going and getting up everyone&#8217;s anger and indignation, if for no other reason than to avoid reason, but how does it have anything to do with the REALITY of what has gone on in and is going on in Tibet and China?

And as to your coworker with fear in their eyes, also a nice literary effect by the way, I worked with a woman that was from the Ukraine and was climbing on desks looking for listening devices because she was convinced the hospital was spying on the staff. 

And please explain what exactly you mean by this



Empty Hands said:


> right to self-determination



It is a nice statement but before we get into another battle of semantics again I would like a bit more explanation



Empty Hands said:


> a multitude of jailed activists and journalists critical of the government could tell you.



Also a great statement and I am certainly not saying that there are not but please elaborate on this &#8220;multitude&#8221; or completely ignore parts of what I said as you usually do and go off about just 1 small part of the statement.

Do you actually know anyone that was anywhere near Tiananmen or lived/lives in Beijing (not worked with, actually know)? 

Do you have any idea how long the whole Tiananmen Square incident went on and what affect it had on Beijing? It does not justify the massacre but do you actually know anything about it? (And before you go off and start talking about things I didn&#8217;t say and in an effort to give you something to ignore in your next response &#8211; the people shot in Tiananmen were not criminals)

Do you actually know anyone that lived in China for a long time (not worked with, actually know)? 

Have you ever been to China?

Do you actually know anything about Chinese and Tibetan history?

Do you actually know anything about Chinese culture and philosophy?

And go with what evidence? 

You do not get the real story here in the US about much of anything that goes on in China nor do the Chinese get the real story of much of anything that goes on in the US that easily, unless you are privy to some high-level US intelligence that is. It is there but you have to look for it.

It is so very easy to be in the US and hear someone, you may not even know them, say something negative about CHina and go off and mount a protest. It is by the way just as easy for someone to do that in China about America. However I will say that you have to be much more careful in China where you decide to protest. Go to a park and likely not many will care. Go to Tiananmen Square and yo WILL be arrested. 

And since you brought up the whole



Empty Hands said:


> You know, no one likes to think that their home is a force for evil. All sorts of rationalizations and justifications come into play. You see it with all those who try to downplay, rationalize or ignore many of the atrocities committed by the US, often using the very same arguments used by the Chinese in regards to Tibet. The Chinese people are no different in this regard



Have any idea what happens if ANY US citizen jumps the fence at teh whitehouse and starts going towards it?


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## Nolerama (Apr 10, 2008)

Being part of the "Free World" should allow people to protest what they think is wrong. However, have any of the anti- Tibetan Occupation groups properly lobbied "Free World" governments on openly doing something about Tibet? No.

The plain fact of the matter is that the juice is nowhere near the worth of the squeeze. Would Americans vote (like that matters anymore, but for hypothetical purposes) for a war with China in lieu of what Tibet has to offer? No way! China and the US have their hands in each others' pockets. Tibet will become nostalgia for *most*, like Native American culture in the US.

Things in this world do die out for one reason or another. Nothing is sacred.

Now take that to the Olympic torch runners, and realize that hanging a sign in front of the guy, saying what he's representing is wrong is totally ridiculous. I find it amusing that people are willing to express their ideas on foreign policy and funnel that energy in ways that don't get things done...

China, like the US has their own problems. I can't say how many Chinese people protest the sale of retail goods to the US, since the "War in Iraq" and GITMO can be considered human rights violations. It's arrogant for Americans to believe they can change things in other countries when the very insecurities they harbor about other countries exists within their own... and they've accomplished nothing.

Where's the Revolution? When will people realize their world can change if they only take the time to assess what is wrong a small scale?

Anyway... Off my soapbox... Let Bono do his thing. We get free concerts out of it.


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## Empty Hands (Apr 10, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Please point out ANYWHERE in any post I have made where I have said this or even HINTED at this



Well, it's a long piece of prose, I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to.  However, you brought up the current standards of living in Tibet and the history prior to the invasion as partial justification for the occupation of China.  You also implied that there was little or no oppression in China because there are lots of cars and money and many people there don't consider themselves oppressed.  My responses were quite in line with those arguments.



Xue Sheng said:


> READ, LEARN the ACTUAL real live history of Tibet and China it is MUCH longer that 50 years.



No history is justification for an aggressive invasion and 50 year occupation (are you listening GWB?).



Xue Sheng said:


> And when exactly do you THINK that Invasion occurred?



The initial invasion by the PRC was in 1950, the crackdown that resulted in the exile of the Dalai Lama was in 1959.



Xue Sheng said:


> Throwing Nazis, Nazi medical experiments and slavery into the mix is all nice for effect and it gets that ooooo factor going and getting up everyones anger and indignation, if for no other reason than to avoid reason, but how does it have anything to do with the REALITY of what has gone on in and is going on in Tibet and China?



Do you understand what an analogy is?  Do you understand that I was trying to support the argument that "the ends do not justify the means"?  Do you also understand that I was not comparing the Chinese to the Nazis?



Xue Sheng said:


> And as to your coworker with fear in their eyes, also a nice literary effect by the way, I worked with a woman that was from the Ukraine and was climbing on desks looking for listening devices because she was convinced the hospital was spying on the staff.



Are you trying to say that anyone afraid of a governmental crackdown must be schizophrenic?  My coworker was afraid, you can choose to believe it or disbelieve it as you choose.  However, you were the one to bring up the "man on the street" as proof of oppression in China.



Xue Sheng said:


> And please explain what exactly you mean by this



I mean that any group of like minded people should have the freedom to govern themselves as they see fit.  I realize that this will never actually fly in the real world, that guns and soldiers will be used to prevent any diminuation in state power, but that is the human rights ideal.



Xue Sheng said:


> Also a great statement and I am certainly not saying that there are not but please elaborate on this multitude or completely ignore parts of what I said as you usually do and go off about just 1 small part of the statement.



China has led the world for the eighth straight year last year in jailing journalists, with 31 imprisoned.  I could find no summed numbers for other activists, but I have read about dozens of cases just this year.  That also doesn't include persecuted religious minorities.  60 members of the Falun Gong are still in prison.



Xue Sheng said:


> Do you actually know anyone that was anywhere near Tiananmen or lived/lives in Beijing (not worked with, actually know)?



Since you yourself say the massacre was not justified, why does it matter?  I also like how your goal posts moved there, I now have to "know" Chinese people instead of just working with them.  As if they would suddenly change their story from the massacre was faked to it was real if I ate Sunday supper with them every week!  Every Chinese person from China I have talked to about the matter downplays or excuses the massacre in some way.  That fits in with my thesis that people will justify and excuse what their own government does.



Xue Sheng said:


> You do not get the real story here in the US about much of anything that goes on in China nor do the Chinese get the real story of much of anything that goes on in the US that easily, unless you are privy to some high-level US intelligence that is. It is there but you have to look for it.



Unless there is some super secret evidence that only the Chinese people know about that proves that the Tianamen square massacre really was faked or that people won't be jailed for criticizing the government, then this point is irrelevant.  Also maybe untrue, given the high level of censorship of the internet and the news media that the Chinese government practices.  If you weren't around a massacre or other event, how do you get the "real story" when the news is censored?

That is how a PhD working scientist can believe that the massacre never happened.



Xue Sheng said:


> However I will say that you have to be much more careful in China where you decide to protest. Go to a park and likely not many will care. Go to Tiananmen Square and yo WILL be arrested.



Oh, now this is just too much.  You've spent PAGES haranguing me about how I don't know anything about China and how it really isn't all that bad, and the people don't think they are oppressed anyways.  Then you yourself admit that if you protest in a particular location you will be arrested!  Nice freedoms ya got there!



Xue Sheng said:


> Have any idea what happens if ANY US citizen jumps the fence at teh whitehouse and starts going towards it?



There is *no *comparison between peaceful protest or governmental dissent and rushing a sensitive government building.

Conflating the two is *grossly *dishonest.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 10, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Well, it's a long piece of prose, I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to. However, you brought up the current standards of living in Tibet and the history prior to the invasion as partial justification for the occupation of China. You also implied that there was little or no oppression in China because there are lots of cars and money and many people there don't consider themselves oppressed. My responses were quite in line with those arguments.


 
So basiuaclly since yo answered no questions and again taled about things I did not say I can gather that you are fairly clueless aobut CHina.

Nice talking to you but I see no reason to continue talking to you about CHina and tibet anymore that it would make since for you and I to get into a duiscussion about Biomedical Sciece. I know nothing about it so why would I diuscuss it with you.



No history is justification for an aggressive invasion and 50 year occupation (are you listening GWB?).



The initial invasion by the PRC was in 1950, the crackdown that resulted in the exile of the Dalai Lama was in 1959.



Do you understand what an analogy is? Do you understand that I was trying to support the argument that "the ends do not justify the means"? Do you also understand that I was not comparing the Chinese to the Nazis?



Are you trying to say that anyone afraid of a governmental crackdown must be schizophrenic? My coworker was afraid, you can choose to believe it or disbelieve it as you choose. However, you were the one to bring up the "man on the street" as proof of oppression in China.



I mean that any group of like minded people should have the freedom to govern themselves as they see fit. I realize that this will never actually fly in the real world, that guns and soldiers will be used to prevent any diminuation in state power, but that is the human rights ideal.



China has led the world for the eighth straight year last year in jailing journalists, with 31 imprisoned. I could find no summed numbers for other activists, but I have read about dozens of cases just this year. That also doesn't include persecuted religious minorities. 60 members of the Falun Gong are still in prison.



Since you yourself say the massacre was not justified, why does it matter? I also like how your goal posts moved there, I now have to "know" Chinese people instead of just working with them. As if they would suddenly change their story from the massacre was faked to it was real if I ate Sunday supper with them every week! Every Chinese person from China I have talked to about the matter downplays or excuses the massacre in some way. That fits in with my thesis that people will justify and excuse what their own government does.



Unless there is some super secret evidence that only the Chinese people know about that proves that the Tianamen square massacre really was faked or that people won't be jailed for criticizing the government, then this point is irrelevant. Also maybe untrue, given the high level of censorship of the internet and the news media that the Chinese government practices. If you weren't around a massacre or other event, how do you get the "real story" when the news is censored?

That is how a PhD working scientist can believe that the massacre never happened.



Oh, now this is just too much. You've spent PAGES haranguing me about how I don't know anything about China and how it really isn't all that bad, and the people don't think they are oppressed anyways. Then you yourself admit that if you protest in a particular location you will be arrested! Nice freedoms ya got there!



There is no comparison between peaceful protest or governmental dissent and rushing a sensitive government building.



Empty Hands said:


> Conflating the two is grossly dishonest.


 
Ahh but you see this does show that you do not know where Tiananmen Square is actually located so again why a would I continue this

PLEASE find a legitimate source of Chinese Tibetan History and read it because China was in control of Tibet LONG before you think.

The PRC rolled in to Tibet in the 50s but Tibet was part of China by agreement with one of its Emperors LOOOOOONG before that.


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## Empty Hands (Apr 10, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> So basiuaclly since yo answered no questions and again taled about things I did not say I can gather that you are fairly clueless aobut CHina.



Oh boy.

Look dude, I answered most of your questions, and responded specifically to your points.  Perhaps you are reading too quickly?  More likely, you are emotionally invested in this issue, and can't slow down long enough to actually read and understand what I am trying to say.

One more time:  there is no justification for oppression and other evil acts.  The Chinese people are like all the other people in the world and are uncomfortable with the thought that their home, the place they are invested in, might be involved in bad things.  So they rationalize it.

Are these two points even disputable?

All the history and the nitpicking and the absolute histrionics are a distraction and a dodge from addressing those points.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 10, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Oh boy.
> 
> Look dude, I answered most of your questions, and responded specifically to your points. Perhaps you are reading too quickly? More likely, you are emotionally invested in this issue, and can't slow down long enough to actually read and understand what I am trying to say.
> 
> ...


 
Look dude :lol: that is almost as funny as the PhD thing you threw in previously

You answed most of my questions...hmm... thats funny I saw no answer to these

*Do you actually know anyone that lived in China for a long time (not worked with, actually know)? 

Have you ever been to China?

Do you actually know anything about Chinese and Tibetan history?

Do you actually know anything about Chinese culture and philosophy?*

But I must apologize for the post as it went up earlier, there was a catastrophic network failure at my office and I was kind of hoping it did not post at all due to at least the spelling errors.

But to get back to it

Since you answered none of those or deemed them not important or relevant I can only assume the answer is no to all of them. Which does show your complete lack of knowledge of China and Tibet so to continue conversation with you would be much the same as if I tried to discuss Biomedicine with you, fairly pointless.

Also the PRC rolled into China in 1950 but if you know the history you would know that Tibet was part of China LONG before that by agreement with one of China's Emperors. And that Tibet was not the Shangri-la prior to that, as most people would like to believe it was

And as to your Conflating the two is grossly dishonest comment

It is apparently not dishonest then to compare it to 2 things like Slavery and Nazi medical experiments. That is interesting.

But actually my question about the White house was asked for another reason, it does show that you have no idea where Tiananmen Square actually is. You might know it is in Beijing but that is all you know
'
Which again shows you complete lack of knowledge on the topic. 

I am, as usual, very tired of discussing something with you. You pick and choose things to answer and respond to things that are not said. And then you accuse me of the very things you are guilty of now that is pretty funny

I'm sure you are pretty sure you already know everything


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## Empty Hands (Apr 10, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> You answed most of my questions...hmm... thats funny I saw no answer to these



I answered them all when I answered the first in the series.  Since you yourself admitted that the massacre was unjustified, all the questions you asked were irrelevant.  The actual answers are yes for some, no for others, and "doesn't matter" to all.



Xue Sheng said:


> Also the PRC rolled into China in 1950 but if you know the history you would know that Tibet was part of China LONG before that by agreement with one of China's Emperors.



As I have stated repeatedly, history is no justification for atrocity.  This continual harping on history does nothing to address my actual argument.



Xue Sheng said:


> It is apparently not dishonest then to compare it to 2 things like Slavery and Nazi medical experiments. That is interesting.



Oh sweet merciful Flying Spaghetti Monster, *I WASN'T COMPARING THE CHINESE TO THE NAZIS!  IT WAS AN ANALOGY!* I even said it right out like two posts ago!  Jesus, you think I'm bad about not responding to your actual arguments.



Xue Sheng said:


> I am, as usual, very tired of discussing something with you. You pick and choose things to answer and respond to things that are not said. And then you accuse me of the very things you are guilty of now that is pretty funny



Physician, heal thyself!  You have done nothing to address my actual arguments.  You haven't even shown that you know what they are!  All you are doing is sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "IGNORANT! IGNORANT! HISTORY!" without even bothering to show how or why history supports what you are even saying.  Or what you are even saying!  It isn't clear!  You've admitted that the massacre happened and was unjustified, you admitted that the invasion produced atrocities, yet here you still are!  You haven't even really disagreed with my actual arguments!



Xue Sheng said:


> You are not worth the time you already know everything



You haven't even tried to show that anything I've said is incorrect!


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## TheOriginalName (Apr 10, 2008)

Without being an expert on the China-Tibet issue i would like to raise a quick point. 

Article 18 of the UN Human Rights Charter (http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) states: "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."

This is something which to me is very important. We all have the right to think what we like - and that leads to the awesome discussions that we have on this forum. We don't have to agree but we do have to respect the rights of others to have different opinions. 

Under the current Chinese government the population do not have this right. If you disagree with the government line you will be charged, tortured or jailed. 

In my opinion this is wrong and needs to change - and this is independent of the entire Tibet issue. I believe that the Olympics represent an opportunity for the world to highlight the problems and demand change. 

But again, this is just my opinion.......


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## Andrew Green (Apr 10, 2008)

TheOriginalName said:


> Under the current Chinese government the population do not have this right. If you disagree with the government line you will be charged, tortured or jailed.



You do realise that they likely had LESS of this under the Dalai Lama right?

Back when the country was a feudal society with most of the population as serfs by birth and a elite monk class that lived off of the work the poor did for them.

Should I also mention the McCarthy era which was really not that long ago in the US, and in a sense lasted until fairly recently with residual still being felt?  While we are on the subject of disagreeing with the government that is.  Or maybe the LA riots, which where even more recent, and in a sense mirrors what is going on in China. A sub culture of the population is being repressed, so is fighting back, which causes more repression until eventually something explodes and blood is spilt.

What is going on in China is not good, but thinking it is a "China problem" is very hypocritical.  One should make sure their yard is clean before complaining about there neighbours IMO.


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## TheOriginalName (Apr 10, 2008)

You raise some very good points there Andrew. 

It would be hypocritical to assume that we as westerners are perfect when it comes to human rights. I will also conceede that you are more than likely correct when it comes to Tibetan life prior to the Chinese occupation. 

This world is not perfect - and unfortunately it never will be (although this should not stop us from attempting to make it so). I simply believe that with China in the spot light at the moment due to the olympics it is the right time for the world to demand change - not nessisarily back to what it was prior to occupation but to a system where the rights of individuals is respected. 

But i think if nothing else, this forum has shown that the issue is large and complex.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 11, 2008)

Then the question becomes, are we sure our way is better?

I imagine most over here would say it is, with a few desenters.  After all it is how we where raised, we get the freedoms we where taught to demand, and the restrictions we grew to accept.  But where we top ask a group of Chinese people, livining in China which way is better, what response would we get?  I imagine most would say the Chinese way is better then the North American way, again with some descenters.  

On both sides I suspect people would not deny that there system is not perfect, and needs some improvement, but both are working towards a goal, that perfect world you mention, however getting people to agree on what that perfect world looks like is a impossible task as we all value different aspects.

Communism has it's appeals, anyone that can't see or accept that is unable to look outside there own box IMO, same goes for capitalism.  Which is correct?  Well wars have been getting fought for a long time with that as the call to arms, on both sides.  There is no easy answer, perhaps because neither system has a "perfect" solution, yet both have appeal to different problems.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> I answered them all when I answered the first in the series. Since you yourself admitted that the massacre was unjustified, all the questions you asked were irrelevant. The actual answers are yes for some, no for others, and "doesn't matter" to all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I thought about going back through your posts, like I did in another post, to show you where you were jumping to major coclusions as to what I was saying when in fact I had not said it at all, like you have done previously, but then I thought of something.

Have you ever read &#8220;Zen in the Martial Arts&#8221; by Joe Hyams? 

It is a good book you may want to pick up a copy.

On pages 47 to 48 he talks about a conversation he was having with Stirling Silliphant and Bruce Lee I will just kind of sum it up here, if you want the whole thing look at the book.

They are having a conversation about the difference between wasting time and spending time and the point of it is that life is too short to deal with people that just want to waste you time and not help you spend it.

nough said.


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## Bodhisattva (Apr 11, 2008)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> I'm sure everyone's aware of the ongoing protests of the Olympics being held in China due to China's slightly less-then-stellar treatment of Tibet. I gotta say that I myself have mixed emotions. On the one hand, as a believer in non-violent dissent and changing things through civic protest, I'm proud to hear of so many being willing to stand up for the rights of others. On the other hand, the Olympics have their history of being an international event for nations and peoples to come together, and might the protesters be spoiling such? Or did China already spoil it before hand through their actions?
> 
> As a note, I have to admire the torch-runner mentioned here, http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24024416/, who'd brought along a Tibetan flag and planned to protest while still running the torch. Too bad the runner was grabbed as soon as the flag came out.
> 
> So just to broach the subject, what do you think regarding the protests? Should people really leave their politics at the door when it comes to the Olympics, or is even such a serious international institution a perfectly valid forum for confronting injustices?



I like protest, in general.  I don't care if the protest even helps the problem - I just like when people decide that their own feelings matter and flood the streets about it. 

It is much better than people NOT deciding that their feelings matter, and sitting inside their apartments placidly watching Seinfeld RERUNS that they have seen 30 times already...

I love protest. Love it.

When I see any group massed together, angry and upset and walking and screaming it out - I just get all warm and fuzzy and happy inside. I become like a sun - glowing and radiant and happy and grinning.

I like rebellion and protest and I want everyone to walk off the job and I want everyone to quit paying rent and to CARE for one another.

I love protest.

I hardly care what is being protested anymore - they can be protesting skinny broke white guys and I'll be dancing - a skinny broke white guy dancing but just the same - dancing.  I love protest.  

I was fed up at 6 years old, and it hasn't declined since.  I love people who are fed up.  I love people who have the personal authority to complain without shame.  I love personal authority.  My dog bit at me once, and I loved it so much for biting at me.  He said "I am a person!" and I liked him for it.

If I see something little biting something bigger than it, I love that little biting thing so much I could almost burn up.

Even if it bites at me.


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## Empty Hands (Apr 11, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> What is going on in China is not good, but thinking it is a "China problem" is very hypocritical.  One should make sure their yard is clean before complaining about there neighbours IMO.



This is just a _tu quoque _fallacy, basically.  The sins of the protesters host country has nothing to do with the sins of the protested country.  One can complain about China while still admitting the sins of one's own home country.  The two have nothing to do with each other.  After all, it is the citizens of the individual countries in question making all the noise, not the governments.  The governments want to keep China happy so the trade money keeps rolling in!

Followed to the extreme, no one could ever complain about any injustice elsewhere since where they come from isn't perfect.


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## Big Don (Apr 11, 2008)

Tibet is way down on the list of reasons to protest China in my book.


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## AceHBK (Apr 13, 2008)

It just amazes me how Westerners like to point the finger at other countries on how they handle things but we refuse to let someone come in and clean our house.  Thre is more than enought things wrong with our own country that she shouldn't say anything until we get our affairs in order. "The man that lives in a glass house should not throw stones", but we have a long standing history of throwing rocks, boulders and anything else.  
Where are there protests to the genocides that are happening in Africa?  When the olympics end and the tv cameras are off these same protestors will shut up.


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## Bodhisattva (Apr 29, 2008)

AceHBK said:


> It just amazes me how Westerners like to point the finger at other countries on how they handle things but we refuse to let someone come in and clean our house. Thre is more than enought things wrong with our own country that she shouldn't say anything until we get our affairs in order. "The man that lives in a glass house should not throw stones", but we have a long standing history of throwing rocks, boulders and anything else.
> Where are there protests to the genocides that are happening in Africa? When the olympics end and the tv cameras are off these same protestors will shut up.


 
People have to pick a cause and support it.  The protestors don't have time to protest EVERYTHING.

So some people protest CHINA, and you think that is worthless, because they aren't also protesting treatment in Africa, Thailand, Korea and Bosnia.

Your quote above refers to GOSSIP.  It says "Do not GOSSIP about others, because you yourself are also imperfect."

These people aren't GOSSIPPING in the streets.  They are PROTESTING the mistreatment of fellow living beings.  That really doesn't apply to the "throw stones" quote.

Get our own affairs in order? You are right! We should! 

However, it is a job that will never be FULLY completed, and so we would never, EVER stick our necks out for other people if we take your advice.

Protest is beautiful.

Whining at protestors because they are "impotent" or "complaining" or "should be protesting something different" is ... curious behavior.


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## Bodhisattva (Apr 29, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Tibet is way down on the list of reasons to protest China in my book.


 
Agreed. 

Lead paint, mistreatment of animals, forced slave labor, child prostitution, dangerous work conditions, child labor, MASSIVE environmental pollution, etc. etc. etc.

China's leadership sucks.

Unfortunately our leadership is really awful, too.

"Leadership" is just a crappy idea in general.


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