# Hiarchy...  A simple one...



## Milt G. (Sep 29, 2009)

Hello,

Hiarchy...

Who are the top two practitioners in your system and what position and ranking do they hold?  

No need to name names if you do not wish to. 
Just, what position and ranking do they hold?  How is the organization structured?

And if you wish...  Where did they obtain their position?  
Such as did they form their own organization?  Were they appointed?  Did their "grandmaster", pass on, or whatever?  Were they deemed the most skilled as the reason for appointment?

Am working on a general research project involving the organizational structures of Kenpo/Martial Arts systems.  Not looking for dirt, just basic, general, information.  I know that different groups structure and go about things differently.  I am trying to tie together some possible reasons for the various structures.

I thank you, in advance, for your input.
Milt G.


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## still learning (Sep 30, 2009)

Hello, Akikdo...the master wanted his son to take over as Head of the organzitions....(some of the top masters...broke away) research this further...

Ed Parker schools went thru this too....

In the system that we were at ....same thing will happen again? ...the Professor wants his Daughter to be the Head...yet there are 8 people higher and more dedicated.

Lots of the Martial arts schools is a business FIRST. ...and like most parents...they want to pass the business on to there children!

Same for all kinds of business....!!!

Aloha, ....heads up! ...best of luck on your research!!!


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## Milt G. (Oct 1, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, Akikdo...the master wanted his son to take over as Head of the organzitions....(some of the top masters...broke away) research this further...
> 
> Ed Parker schools went thru this too....
> 
> ...


 
Hello,

Yes, it is interesting that "founders" often do not pick the most senior, or most skilled practitioner to "take the helm" when they are no longer able to, or when they pass.  It often goes to a family member who is, usually, a practitioner.  Seems to be the single most common reason for organizations to "implode".  Of course, the most "skilled" can be a matter of opinion.  The most senior may not be a "leader".  Difficult to have all the necessary attributes in one package.

Some of it is the fact that many do not trust the choice of the "founder".  Or so it appears.  Other seniors may feel now that the "glue" for the group is gone they can, or should, go their seperate way. 

I always thought it was good to appoint a "board" to take over, but then you have the whole "personality" and ego thing.  Of course, a helpful ingredient is for the "founder" to make the choice before they leave.  They must demonstrate being of sound mind as well at that time.

All in all, no simple matter.  I am looking for successful groups that have continued to thrive after the passing of the "founder".  Ones that did not "splinter" and are still intact pretty much as they were.  I do not believe there are many that meet that criteria these days.

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Mushinto (Oct 7, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> ... I am looking for successful groups that have continued to thrive after the passing of the "founder". Ones that did not "splinter" and are still intact pretty much as they were. I do not believe there are many that meet that criteria these days. ...


 
Good luck.

Kodokan Judo is the only major system / art I am aware of that did not seriously fracture after the founder passed away.

ML


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 7, 2009)

Don't belong to any org's any longer. Too much politics and too little practice. 

The primary Kenpo line I came from origionally was the Jay T. Will line. Wasn't far removed at all, but he's dead now and the organization I belonged to is now defunct. 

I studies with others and belonged to different org's but as I said, the political garbage became too much of a distraction from actual training. 

So ...I guess I am the the most senior in my little club and presently my highest ranking student is a purple belt so...LOL 

Don't know if that contributes anything to your research really... but it is what it is.


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## yorkshirelad (Oct 7, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Don't belong to any org's any longer. Too much politics and too little practice.
> 
> The primary Kenpo line I came from origionally was the Jay T. Will line. Wasn't far removed at all, but he's dead now and the organization I belonged to is now defunct.
> 
> ...


This is the best way to train IMO. The politics of Martial Arts has left a bad taste in my mouth and now I just want to train with people for enjoyment. I have to go away for a few months as of tuesday but when I get back, I plan on training with GMs Chuck Sullivan and Vic La Reux. I spoke with GM La Reux on the phone a few weeks ago and he was a really nice guy. They don't seem to be politically inclined, and train less than 5 miles away from me. Good deal!!


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 7, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> This is the best way to train IMO. The politics of Martial Arts has left a bad taste in my mouth and now I just want to train with people for enjoyment. I have to go away for a few months as of tuesday but when I get back, I plan on training with GMs Chuck Sullivan and Vic La Reux. I spoke with GM La Reux on the phone a few weeks ago and he was a really nice guy. They don't seem to be politically inclined, and train less than 5 miles away from me. Good deal!!


 
I've trained with them a few times and there's no better source to help improve your basics. Enjoy!


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## Blindside (Oct 7, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> Hiarchy...
> 
> ...


 
Hierarchy?

Well, I have Jim as my Kenpo instructor, he has Willie as his, Willie has had a couple over the course of his training.  The title of their positions and rankings is "Teacher."  

I don't see the point of organizations, if each teacher holds themselves responsible for the quality of their students, then what is the function of an organization?  As far as I am concerned, the only relationship that really matters is between the teacher and student, everything else is periphial.


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## James Kovacich (Oct 7, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, Akikdo...the master wanted his son to take over as Head of the organzitions....(some of the top masters...broke away) research this further...
> 
> Ed Parker schools went thru this too....
> 
> ...


 
Theres no shame for the seniors breaking off. Old ways passed the system to family and business to day does the same. To an outsider a business, which it is, would be sold. The seniors should do what they feel is right.

Which location do you train at?


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## dianhsuhe (Oct 7, 2009)

In Kara-Ho Kempo we have Grandmaster Kuoha (10th dan) then the next two highest are 7th and 6th dans, one each.

Between the two they have roughly 50 years of training. One has been around so long that he trained with Professor Chow way back when.

Each of our dan ranks has criteria: weapons, techniques, katas, healing arts, etc. So no promotions are based just on "time in".

Another of our highest instructors is Shihan Ka'imi Kuoha (5th dan) and she has been designated to take over the system if and when Grandmaster Kuoha retires.

Promotions are few and far between with very few people exceeding 2nd or 3rd dan. 

Jamey


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## Milt G. (Oct 9, 2009)

Mushinto said:


> Good luck.
> 
> Kodokan Judo is the only major system / art I am aware of that did not seriously fracture after the founder passed away.
> 
> ML


 
Hello,
Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I believe their organization is still pretty much intact.  I think there was a strong hiarchy there that all of the seniors respected.  And the fact that the Japanese have different ideals on loyalty and respect did not hurt.

Pretty much one of the few success stories, I think?

Thanks, again.
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Oct 9, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Don't belong to any org's any longer. Too much politics and too little practice.
> 
> The primary Kenpo line I came from origionally was the Jay T. Will line. Wasn't far removed at all, but he's dead now and the organization I belonged to is now defunct.
> 
> ...


 
Hello,
Thanks for the reply!

Yes, politics while meant to be a positive comes out as a negative sometimes.  Many do not participate with a "group" solely for that reason.

I think position, ego and money are to blame.  Perhaps in that order.  Things can get out of hand with some and sour the experience for all.  Sad, but true.

Thanks,
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Oct 10, 2009)

Blindside said:


> Hierarchy?
> 
> Well, I have Jim as my Kenpo instructor, he has Willie as his, Willie has had a couple over the course of his training. The title of their positions and rankings is "Teacher."
> 
> I don't see the point of organizations, if each teacher holds themselves responsible for the quality of their students, then what is the function of an organization? As far as I am concerned, the only relationship that really matters is between the teacher and student, everything else is periphial.


 
Hello,

I agree.  The primary teacher should administer the training and rankings.  I just find the study of organizations a good social studies project. 

Please correct me if I am wrong...  You guys do have an "organization" of sorts, as you have more then one school with the same name?  You are just lucky in that the group is small, "family like", and not micro managed.  Not much politics because of the makeup of the group and your location.  All in all, you guys may have the perfect setup!  When organizations become large, they sometimes become cumbersome if not managed well.  It is not easy, I have seen.

Basically a martial arts "organization", I have found, has the main purpose of administering training and certifying ranking.  Nothing more and nothing less.  There is sometimes a benefit to having more then one qualified individual witness and attest to a students training and ranking.  This seems to be purely a matter of opinion, though.

In the end, again, the individual practitioner will determine all of the validity necessary.  Organizations, love them or hate them, can be interesting study...  Kind of like family groups...  Think of "at home for the holidays"...  

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Oct 10, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> Theres no shame for the seniors breaking off. Old ways passed the system to family and business to day does the same. To an outsider a business, which it is, would be sold. The seniors should do what they feel is right.
> 
> Which location do you train at?


 

Hello,

I agree with you...  At least to a point.  
The seniors leaving an organization should really look at all angles before they make the final decision.  While I do not think it is a "sin" for a senior to break from an organization or system I would never really encourage it, either.

Of course, it is an individual decision one must make with appropriate counsel and heart felt thought.  Not to be considered lightly.  Sometimes it may mean the demise of the study opportunity for some, or all, of the student base.  As a senior, I feel the priority should be to continue to teach and spread the art as free from politics and petty personal differences as possible.

But, when compromise is impossible, perhaps the best decision is to move on.  In my research this happens quite often and the effects on the system are good, and bad.  It all depends on the position of the students and the senior(s) in question.  Everyone must feel good about what they do, and how they do it, to have the most positive impact.

Thanks for your reply.
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Oct 10, 2009)

dianhsuhe said:


> In Kara-Ho Kempo we have Grandmaster Kuoha (10th dan) then the next two highest are 7th and 6th dans, one each.
> 
> Between the two they have roughly 50 years of training. One has been around so long that he trained with Professor Chow way back when.
> 
> ...


 
Hello,

Thank you for your clear and concise reply.

I hope that Mr. Kuoha "installs" Ms. Kuoha while he still able to actively support her.  In this way he should have the best chance of having his "appointment" honored by all of the seniors.  It is difficult as she may not be the "ranking" senior.  But, perhaps by then she will be?

There will still be those seniors that will feel that they are more qualified.  
It is the nature of the beast.  There must be OPENLY NO QUESTION of who the next leader is to be.  It is the responsibility of the "rank and file" to support that decision...  Or, not...  

That was the problem with the American Kenpo system at the passing of Ed Parker.  There was no OPENLY CLEAR successor appointed.  Perhaps the arts in general, and Kenpo in specific, will learn from the actions, and reactions, of the past?  
We shall certainly see as the future unfolds...

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Oct 28, 2009)

Hello,

In light of the fact that this thread has "died in committee", I do wish to thank the responders and those who even considered responding.

I know that this can be a touchy subject, and that many may be unaware of the type of leadership their various organizations may have.  Sometimes this kind of information can be difficult to put in words, as gaps often can be present.

I would like to encourage everyone to learn the history of their art and system.  Try to trace it to the beginning, or as far back as you can get.  Try to get names and dates, if possible.  Try not to rely on just one source.  Get a "second opinion", and perhaps a third.

The more you know about your art, not just the self-defense applications, the more well rounded you will become.  
I cannot tell you how many times I have asked practitioners who their teachers, teacher was...  Only to receive the "they were a monk that lived in a cave", or a similar response.  If you studied for longer then a month, you probably know your instructors last name...  I get told, often, that; "my instructor is John"...  Q:"What is his last name?"  A:"I just know him as John"...  Q:"How long did you study with him?"  A:"Seven years"...  Oh...  I bet his teacher was a monk that lived in a cave?  So...  Where was this cave?  A: (likely)"In the side of a mountain"...  

Thank you all, again.
Milt G.


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## dianhsuhe (Dec 9, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> Thank you for your clear and concise reply.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Milt-San,

Sorry for the late follow-up.  LOL

Shihan Ka'imi was designated the next leader of Kara-Ho when she was a child when Professor Chow told her that she would some day take over the system.  She has trained her entire life and she is phenominal.  I am fortunate to train under her on a regular basis and teach classes at her studio (appropriately named: Kwai-Sun Studio) 

Grandmaster Kuoha set everything in motion many years ago to avoid any confusion. Should he retire or pass away he has appointed individuals to act as her personal advisors and we also have an international board of directors for Kara-Ho which includes Grandmaster Kuoha, Shihan Ka'imi Kuoha and a handful of others. All major decisions will be voted on with the Board based on what is best for the system.

Our system while not as large as many others (7k-10,000 students maybe?) is very much a family and every blackbelt promotion at any dan level is personally overseen by Grandmaster himself (unless an exception is made).


Take care,
Jamey


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## Milt G. (Dec 9, 2009)

dianhsuhe said:


> Hi Milt-San,
> 
> Sorry for the late follow-up. LOL
> 
> ...


 
Hello,
Thanks for your reply...

Sounds like Kara-Ho will be well taken care of in the future.  Best to get the future plans and structure down sooner, rather then later.  Less confusion, at a difficult time, that way.  Hopefully, the other Kara-Ho seniors will support her.

Will be good to not have another "melt down" like occured in American Kenpo when Ed Parker passed.  It was (and can still get) ugly.  Not good for the students, the art or the future.  The future should be a founder's or a senior's first consideration.  The art must continue to survive, if possible.  Take care of the students and you take care of the art.  They will be the future.

Thanks again...  Happy Holidays!
Milt G.


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## dianhsuhe (Dec 9, 2009)

Milt-San,

You are FAST!

I agree, we are in a good situation looking towards the future. Grandmaster Kuoha is only in his 60's and very active with teaching and training!

One nevers know what will happen though, before Professor Chow died he went out of his way to appoint a successor, but still to this day 22 years later- there are folks who believe they are the true heir, or that they teach his "true" system. Most of which were not even in contact with Professor for MANY years when he passed.

Shihan Ka'imi is only 26 but has been groomed for this her entire life and we have all been her big brothers/ friends and advisors through the years. The only people that outrank her (2) besides Grandmaster, have known her since birth, pretty much, and have been actively involved in training and mentoring her to someday take the position.

As far as I can tell, they would not have it any other way! (neither would I)

Professor Chow's system will be in good hands! 
Happy Holidays sir,
Jamey


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## Milt G. (Dec 12, 2009)

dianhsuhe said:


> Milt-San,
> 
> You are FAST!
> 
> ...


 
Hello, Jamey!

Sounds like you have taken the proper steps, and all of the major players are on the same page.  That is very good.

Sadly, these things tend to occur after the passing of the founder, or leader.  Usually always related to ego, politics and greed.  I hope (and it looks like) things will be well with Kara-Ho Kempo for years to come.

Congratulations to you and your group, for a job well done.  I look forward to seeing the progress of Kara-Ho in the years to come.  Although not a practitioner of Kara-Ho, I do respect all of the arts, and practitioners, that have influenced my art over the decades.  None of would be where we are today without them.       

Thanks for your replies.
Milt G.


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