# The Destroyer Style



## The Destroyer Style

These are some basic self defence techniques from my own personal fighting style. It was invented to help people with handicapps or weaknesses. In a real fight the least amount of effort with the most effect is what you want. http://www.youtube.com/user/BecomingTheWarrior1

Thanks for reading Cody


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## jks9199

Interesting.  Why don't you take a moment and tell us about yourself & your background over in the Meet & Greet?


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## Tez3

I suppose you couldn't change the bit that says 'cage fighter' to MMA fighter which is more accurate and what we prefer to be called? "Cage fighting' is called that invariably by people who don't fight, it's an image we are trying very hard to change from that of yob to athlete.


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## seasoned

Thanks for sharing.


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## The Destroyer Style

In my opinion alot of martial arts out there do not cover proper techniques for people who are weaker or hadicapped. That is stupid, because they are the people who are attacked the most. I have been working on a martial art for about twelve years for people who don't have alot of strength, or are even stuck in a wheel chair. I think that self defence should keep people from being rapped and killed. If you can't effectively stop an attacker in a few seconds. Then you have a very low chance of living threw a life or death situation. Something that alot of people don't tell you. Is that if you are every attacked while walking on the street its almost always more then one person attacking you. For this reason it is important to know, How to quickly stop or kill an opponent. No one wants to kill I'm sure, in which case you have to take an enemies eyes or ear to save their life. I think these things should be taught to Handicapped people. Even women who must walk to a job, or school, that stand a chance of being rapped or mugged. I don't have alot of videos posted, but the videos I have up can be used by a ninety pound woman to fight a two hundred pound man. My link is http://www.youtube.com/user/BecomingTheWarrior1
I hope this will help anyone who is every attacked.

Cody


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## The Destroyer Style

Tez3 has a very good point. I never really thought about it that way. We do learn abilities, but not just for the cage. I will make it a point to tell people that from now on.



Cody


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## Tez3

The Destroyer Style said:


> Tez3 has a very good point. I never really thought about it that way. We do learn abilities, but not just for the cage. I will make it a point to tell people that from now on.
> 
> 
> 
> Cody


 
Thank you, you and I know what we do but to the media the words "cagefighting" conjures up precisely the image we are trying to get away from. We want MMA to become regarded as a serious sport practised by serious people. Over here no fighters call themselves cagefighters, if someone does you know they aren't a fighter!


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## MJS

Cody,

First off, welcome to the forum. 

Would you explain exactly what this system contains?  What arts have you studied, that you have combined to form what you are calling the Destroyer Style?

Mike


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## The Destroyer Style

The Destroyer Style is a mixture of Tae Kwon Do, Jujitsu, Boxing, Mauy Thai, Kick Boxing, and Kung Fu.

The only style that I have not had a class for is Kung Fu, It was a friend that taught me some its techniques. I learned Jujitsu, Boxing, from my friend Sean Spencer who is a Pro MMA fighter. He is a member of Team Oxindine. He is currently in Texas training. I took a class for Tae Kwon Do, and Mauy Thai, which was mixed with kick boxing. I still train to fight, but spend most of my time helping others learn. I have a friend who was born with Polio and he cannot use his legs well. He asked me one day to teach him how to fight. I knew that his leg would make it almost impossible to do Tae Kwon Do, or MMA. So I decided that I should start learning every technique I could that would be able to stop an opponent within a few seconds. Almost every technique I use will cause permanent injury or death. I teach the basics of Boxing and Tae Kwon Do, so they will have a pretty good mix of foot work and hand work. As you can imagine a Mauy Thai kick is out of the question for people who have not trained, or have weak legs. I do teach elbows, and knees as a must. 



Cody


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## jks9199

You've got a novel approach, and I applaud the recognition and concern for those who are not particularly athletic.  But I'm going to ask a couple of blunt questions:

Do you have teaching credentials in any of these arts?

How do you know what works in the real deal?  Do you bring professional experience to the table, like a law enforcement officer or bouncer might?  Are you drawing on the mistakes of misspent youth?  Or is it limited to what's worked in the training hall?

How have you assessed the applicability for those who have physical impediments?  The videos you've posted don't seem particularly suited to someone who has an impaired leg, for example.


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## The Destroyer Style

You are right the videos posted are for people with just lack of strength. Simple defence measures. My partner in the videos is ill right now. I am planning to shoot a video from wheel chair position as soon as he is well. I actually trained with the Golden Gloves, and proffessional MMA fighters in my area. I have been attacked several times by thugs who want free money or just to say that they beat someone with martial arts training. I used the martial arts I knew back then to fight them off. I never was satisfied with the results. It always took to long to put an opponent down. I was once surrounded by thirty people. They would have killed me if the police had not come. This was in my high school. That is why I have developed ways to incompasitate somone within seconds. If I would have fought thirty people with any of the fighting styles I had learned or even just 2 people. I would have died, or at least been crippled up. My experience is from life.


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## David43515

The Destroyer Style said:


> You are right the videos posted are for people with just lack of strength. Simple defence measures. My partner in the videos is ill right now. I am planning to shoot a video from wheel chair position as soon as he is well. I actually trained with the Golden Gloves, and proffessional MMA fighters in my area. I have been attacked several times by thugs who want free money or just to say that they beat someone with martial arts training. I used the martial arts I knew back then to fight them off. I never was satisfied with the results. It always took to long to put an opponent down. I was once surrounded by thirty people. They would have killed me if the police had not come. This was in my high school. That is why I have developed ways to incompasitate somone within seconds. If I would have fought thirty people with any of the fighting styles I had learned or even just 2 people. I would have died, or at least been crippled up. My experience is from life.


 
How old are you? Does your Mom know you`re up this late?


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## The Destroyer Style

Hmmm.... I don't know, I will go ask her.


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## Chris Parker

Hi Cody,

I've read through most of your posts here, and checked out your clips, as well as reading your profile there, and a few things are leaping out to me. This post here actually gives me most, so I'm going to go through them one at a time. Please bear in mind that this is meant to be positive for you, so hopefully we can take it that way.



The Destroyer Style said:


> In my opinion alot of martial arts out there do not cover proper techniques for people who are weaker or hadicapped.
> 
> Okay, to start with, going through your profile on Youtube, it says that you are 21 years old. So the obvious question is how do you have the experience to make such sweeping claims? Especially as your entire list of arts studied are sporting systems, therefore only a small part of what martial arts can offer.
> 
> Bear in mind that arts such as Aikido, Wing Chun, Ba Gua, and many many more are designed with exactly what you are describing as a main impetus, so to claim that "a lot of martial arts out there do not cover proper techniques..." is going to be taken as rather presumtious and ignorant at best, and downright rude and arrogant at worst. There are members here from a wide variety of backgrounds, so please try to remember that.
> 
> That is stupid, because they are the people who are attacked the most. I have been working on a martial art for about twelve years for people who don't have alot of strength, or are even stuck in a wheel chair.
> 
> Refering to other people's arts as "stupid" is exactly what I was refering to above. Careful with language like that. Oh, and you have been working on this for 12 years? That would mean that you were 9 when you started putting it together, right? At that point, I would suggest that you were not so much putting together your system, as you were just starting to train in one of your arts, yes? Probably Tae Kwon Do?
> 
> As well as that, the question has been asked on another thread as to your teaching qualifications. I would add to that the question of how much experience you have teaching or training people with handicaps or disabilities? Just imagining what you (as a healthy person) could do in a chair is not the same as someone who is confined to a wheelchair. One of my fellow Instructors had a student at one time who suffered from cerebral palsy, was confined to a wheelchair, and had very limited use of his arms and evasive movement of his body and head. That was a challenge.
> 
> I think that self defence should keep people from being rapped and killed. If you can't effectively stop an attacker in a few seconds. Then you have a very low chance of living threw a life or death situation.
> 
> Well, yes, self defence should help people live their lives free from attack and assault, but frankly this is a very limited and macho-centric view of self defence. It is not just about being violent and fighting. It is far more about having the awareness to be able to avoid such situations in the first place. Of course, should the situation be unavoidable, having the technical skills to defend yourself is vital, but the technical side of things is actually the least important aspect. However, this is quite common for the younger, less experienced (and, I must say, male) martial artists.
> 
> Something that alot of people don't tell you. Is that if you are every attacked while walking on the street its almost always more then one person attacking you.
> 
> Okay, a couple of things here. For one thing, you are guessing what goes on in martial art classes here. As said, your entire background is based on sport systems, which will focus on singular one-on-one competition, so the idea of group assaults are less emphasised, so in those arts you may be correct. But to say that a lot of people don't tell you that most assaults these days are groups or gang attacks is to completely miss how these arts are taught. In my classes, in every RBSD class I have attended, in every martial art magazine, the concept of group assaults is very prevalent, so I don't really get where you are coming from here.
> 
> But something else has been bugging me. In another thread you said that you are a "published author" on ezine.com. Yet your posts here are very lacking in basic sentence construction, spelling etc. You have a tendancy to use full stops and create new sentences mid-thought, rather than use a comma as would be required. Honestly just wondering how you are a published author unless it is a self-publish website? It just appears to be a bit of grandstanding, honestly.
> 
> For this reason it is important to know, How to quickly stop or kill an opponent.
> 
> No, it is important to know how to create enough distraction or violence to stop an attack long enough to safely get away. The idea of knowing how to kill an opponent is the product of a scared mind, and you will find that it is a very short-sighted policy to go through such ideas, as they will get you in legal trouble should it ever come to that. Again, this is just another indication of the maturity you are displaying, so you will find the responces you get will reflect that (as I'm sure you already have).
> 
> No one wants to kill I'm sure, in which case you have to take an enemies eyes or ear to save their life. I think these things should be taught to Handicapped people.
> 
> I would just say see above.
> 
> Even women who must walk to a job, or school, that stand a chance of being rapped or mugged. I don't have alot of videos posted, but the videos I have up can be used by a ninety pound woman to fight a two hundred pound man. My link is http://www.youtube.com/user/BecomingTheWarrior1
> I hope this will help anyone who is every attacked.
> 
> I appreciate what you are trying to do here, but I haven't seen anything here that is actually well geared to a smaller, weaker, or handicapped individual. And I must say that I am unsure as to why you have posted here in this particular forum (Women of the Martial Arts). The only things you have said relating to women here is basically scaremongering that they will be attacked, raped, killed walking on their way to work or school, and really, that is just not cool. Most women will not, but remember that many members here have come to the martial arts after a similar experience, so bringing it up must be done with respect, tact, and care, not in a way designed to scare them into believing what you are say.
> 
> Cody


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## MJS

The Destroyer Style said:


> You are right the videos posted are for people with just lack of strength. Simple defence measures. My partner in the videos is ill right now. I am planning to shoot a video from wheel chair position as soon as he is well. I actually trained with the Golden Gloves, and proffessional MMA fighters in my area. I have been attacked several times by thugs who want free money or just to say that they beat someone with martial arts training. I used the martial arts I knew back then to fight them off. I never was satisfied with the results. It always took to long to put an opponent down. I was once surrounded by thirty people. They would have killed me if the police had not come. This was in my high school. That is why I have developed ways to incompasitate somone within seconds. If I would have fought thirty people with any of the fighting styles I had learned or even just 2 people. I would have died, or at least been crippled up. My experience is from life.


 
A few more questions for you.

1) How long have you trained in each of the arts that you've listed?

2) Do you hold ranks in any of the arts?  If so, what are they?

The reason why I ask these questions is simple...there have been others who've come on here, talking about a new system that they've created, so if you're getting some rough replies, thats probably why.  IMO, if the person training in (insert art(s) here) dabbles in a few different things, gets a rough idea and then tries to create something, it often raises the question as to why.  While I don't feel that someone should have to train for 30yrs before they 'get it' I also feel that the person needs to have a solid understanding of the basics, and a strong foundation to build from.

I may not pull off a full, textbook Kenpo technique, but the tech. that I do, relies on the foundation that I"m basing my response off of.  Personally speaking, I have a background in 3 different arts.  Many times, during a tech., I'll find myself starting with Kenpo and then ending with Arnis.  The 2 work very well together.  I often will teach things from Arnis during a Kenpo class, but I make sure that everyone knows that its Arnis, not Kenpo.  I'm not mixing for the sake of trying to create something 'new' or pass something off as one thing, when it really isn't.

I wish you well in your training.

Mike


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## Tez3

David43515 said:


> How old are you? Does your Mom know you`re up this late?


 

Naughty boy, that's unkind!


Comment on the post, don't make it personal agaist the poster that's unfair.


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## Xue Sheng

The Destroyer Style said:


> The only style that I have not had a class for is *Kung Fu*, It was a friend that taught me some its techniques.


 
Nothing for or against your style just a note 

Kung Fu is a rather generic title

All of these can fall under Kung Fu and they are the same


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## Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng said:


> Nothing for or against your style just a note
> 
> Kung Fu is a rather generic title
> 
> All of these can fall under Kung Fu and they are the same


 
Not meaning to quote myself but I see I have made a rather SERIOUS Type-O and it is to late to hit the Edit button



Xue Sheng said:


> All of these can fall under Kung Fu and they are the same


 
Should be: All of these can fall under Kung Fu and they are *NOT* the same


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## Bruno@MT

Quick question: I looked at the youtube channel, and it mentions something about defending against a sucker punch. I always thought that a sucker punch was when you got slapped while not being on guard, kinda like  when you are minding your own business and someone punches you out of nowhere. Is that understanding correct?

Because in the clip, 'the destroyer' was standing fully on guard while his friend attempted a halfhearted punch. I wouldn't define this as a sucker punch but I could be mistaken about the meaning of the term, as used here.


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## Tez3

Bruno@MT said:


> Quick question: I looked at the youtube channel, and it mentions something about defending against a sucker punch. I always thought that a sucker punch was when you got slapped while not being on guard, kinda like when you are minding your own business and someone punches you out of nowhere. Is that understanding correct?
> 
> Because in the clip, 'the destroyer' was standing fully on guard while his friend attempted a halfhearted punch. I wouldn't define this as a sucker punch but I could be mistaken about the meaning of the term, as used here.


 
Sucker Punch is a film which has an MMA fighter mate of mine in it! My instructor was in a couple of scenes. 
http://www.suckerpunchthemovie.com/sucker_punch/


Sorry, couldn't resist but as the film title says..you don't see it coming.


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## zDom

I don't want to offend you, I'm just going to make a statement.

If you find it applies to you, fine. If not, also fine.

My dad taught me a basic karate punch when I was 10 years old. About that same time, I spent what I thought was a lot of time reading Bruce Tegner's self defense book. 

From age 10-22 I met and "learned a few things" from and "trained" with several people over the years.

*I used to think I knew a LOT about martial arts &#8212; until I started training 4 to 5 days per week, EVERY week, with a real martial art instructor, in a real martial art class.*

Now, after about 20 years of training, week in and week out, I'm still not ready to "invent" my own martial art program &#8212; not for the handicapped, not for ANYBODY.

I've heard a lot of people ask, but I haven't seen you answer yet &#8212; what is your background? Have you been training &#8212; day in, day out &#8212; for all these years?

Yes, handicapped people face challenges when it comes to martial arts. And finding techniques that work for THEM is a HUGE challenge. Such a huge challenge, that it would take someone with a LOT of experience to come up with what is REALLY a feasible system for them.

If you are not as qualified as you think you are (and I'm not saying you are or are not qualified &#8212; still waiting to hear more about your experience before I form my opinion),

_then you many actually be doing more harm than good by teaching people something they will believe in but will fail them when they think they can depend on it._

I'm sorry you are running into so much skepticism here &#8212; but most of us have put in long, hard hours training and, over the many, many years that we have been studying and training in martial arts, have met and conversed with plenty of people who think, after "learning a couple of moves from their uncle who was in the special forces" they can re-invent wheels we have been using for years and years and years and years and years.


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## Xue Sheng

I looked at the Videos and you have some skill (and a friend that apparently likes to be kicked, punched and thrown to the ground), However I see nothing new or different from multiple other styles (actually it looked similar to Sanshou) I have seen nor do I see anything that I would say was specifically to help handicapped people or who are weaker or have weak legs. I applaud your efforts but I think it needs work if your target group is handicapped people. There are handicapped martial artists out there, maybe you should look to them for help with this.

Oh and a sucker punch is 



> A sucker punch is a blow which is made without warning or preparation on the part of the recipient and so is usually delivered from close range. It is not possible to block such a punch and so people at risk of such blows must be alert to the proximity of potential opponents


 
And per Tez it is a movie too


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## Omar B

There's another great thread running at this very moment titled "Why" and it's about those who go out creating an art without the needed experience.  But I also echo Chris and zDom's concerns.


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## The Destroyer Style

I think its only fair to question, and I don't want to invent something, just take what is useful for (a certain kind of person from each style.) The styles I have taken don't have any help for people who are weaker, or handicapp. That is why I want to make this. My experience is one year in a MMA class, There I learned Jujitsu, Boxing, Mauy Thai/Kick boxing. I was under a year in Tae Kwon Do, those are all that are on record. I also learned Kung Fu, and Military tactics from a friend, who I call my uncle. He started me thinking differently when I was twelve years old. Thats why I say I have been working on it for so long. I'm not saying I am a master. I am just saying I know enough to at least give someone a way to protect themselves. The best way to do that is to mix all these together for now. If later I learn something more useful I will add it as well. If you know of the perfect martial art I would really like to know it. I have always been taught that if you can't change and adapt in fighting you will never learn anything. Anyone who can throw a jab can fight. All martial arts do is show them how to do it more effectively. Thats what I intend to do. I don't worry about critisicm though. Words can't do anything to me, I do appreciate your advice though. If any of you know any certain style that helps mostly handicapp people I would like to know of it. I have alot of people I know who could use it.


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## The Destroyer Style

I do realize that a tru sucker punch is undefendable, I just wanted to show a way to react. If you saw it at the last second. If you don't see it, I really don't think there is anything you can do. Um, blink maybe. I have not yet posted my videos for handicapp defence yet. I will let you know when I do. For half hearted though, no he just really doesn't know how to punch. Haha, he doesn't like really being hit, but he told me. How will people know it works if you don't show them. I guess it will be my turn for him to hit me next.


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## Xue Sheng

OK, I was going to stay out of this but I now have some problems here



The Destroyer Style said:


> I think its only fair to question, and I don't want to invent something, just take what is useful for (a certain kind of person from each style.) The styles I have taken don't have any help for people who are weaker, or handicapp.


 
That would be because you did not take as many styles as you are claiming. It appears you took TKD and MMA. Both sports oriented and both depend a lot on strength.



The Destroyer Style said:


> That is why I want to make this. My experience is one year in a MMA class, There I learned Jujitsu, Boxing, Mauy Thai/Kick boxing.


 
1 year in an MMA class, although hard training, does not constitute leaning Jujitsu (BJJ or JJJ), Muay Thai Kick Boxing or boxing. It means you trained MMA.



The Destroyer Style said:


> I was under a year in Tae Kwon Do


 
Under one year.... I don't even have to go here 



The Destroyer Style said:


> I also learned Kung Fu


 
No, no you didn't.

I posted this in another of your posts but apparently you did not see it yet. Kung Fu is a rather generic term covering all Chinese Martial Arts and if you took "Kung Fu" you would identify it by the style not the generic term. These are all called Kung Fu and they are not the same




The Destroyer Style said:


> Military tactics from a friend


 
What branch of the military did your friend serve in and for how long. And just for the record Military tactics are defined as; the art of organizing an army, are the techniques for using weapons or military units in combination for engaging and defeating an enemy in battle. 



The Destroyer Style said:


> I'm not saying I am a master. I am just saying I know enough to at least give someone a way to protect themselves. The best way to do that is to mix all these together for now.


 
Point in your favor you do not claim to be a master but after what sounds like less than 2 years of official training I am not so sure about the rest

accept for this part



The Destroyer Style said:


> If later I learn something more useful I will add it as well.


 
You will learn a LOT more if you train more with real live teachers of various styles for a few years, not 1.5 to 2 closer to 10 or more




The Destroyer Style said:


> If you know of the perfect martial art I would really like to know it


 
There is no such animal for every single person and you are going to invent it either, especially with so little background in Martial arts 

And how much &#8220;professional" experience do you have working with handicapped persons and or how much medical training do you have in dealing with handicapped persons? 



The Destroyer Style said:


> I have always been taught that if you can't change and adapt in fighting you will never learn anything. Anyone who can throw a jab can fight. All martial arts do is show them how to do it more effectively.


 
Yes you need to adapt, no if you can throw a jab you cannot necessarily fight, you can throw a jab and Martial arts teaches you one heck of a lot more than how to throw a jab or fight more effectively.



The Destroyer Style said:


> Thats what I intend to do. I don't worry about critisicm though. Words can't do anything to me, I do appreciate your advice though. If any of you know any certain style that helps mostly handicapp people I would like to know of it. I have alot of people I know who could use it.


 
If that is your intent I hope you succeed but it sounds as if you need a lot more training in Martial arts and possibly with persons with disabilities as well. But I would refrain from kicking. punching and knocking my friends to the floor with little or no padding while you tried to figure it out.


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## theletch1

The Destroyer Style said:


> I do realize that a tru sucker punch is undefendable, I just wanted to show a way to react. If you saw it at the last second. If you don't see it, I really don't think there is anything you can do. Um, blink maybe. I have not yet posted my videos for handicapp defence yet. I will let you know when I do. For half hearted though, no he just really doesn't know how to punch. Haha, he doesn't like really being hit, but he told me. How will people know it works if you don't show them. I guess it will be my turn for him to hit me next.


 A true sucker punch IS defendable... by using situational awareness.   The absolute first thing that must be taught in a self defense class is being aware of your surroundings, obeying the rule of the three stupids, putting forth an aura of not being a victim... hell, you could almost spend a year teaching that without ever getting into physical technique.  

There are, quite literally, hundreds of years worth of martial arts experience bound up in the membership here at Martial Talk.  You'll find that you'll have to be on top of your game to offer anything "new" here but if you are truly sincere and passionate about what you're doing most folks here will be willing to give good, honest feedback.


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## zepedawingchun

Well Cody, looks like everyone is hanging you out to dry.  As well they should.  Making the blanket statements you did about martial arts is only asking for ridicule.  I've been in the martial arts for 37 years and still don't preach about having found the perfect martial art.  Maybe its the perfect art for me, but not everyone else.  Anyone asking has to try it first.

There was nothing extraordinary or exceptional in what you displayed in your video.  But let me give you something else to think about when attempting to continue to create your martial arts '*system*' for the handicapped.  Have you ever attempted to teach someone who is blind?  Everything on your video is based around someone seeing their attacker and the attacks coming.  How would a blind person handle a jab, a cross, someone shooting in to take them to the ground or grabbing them from behind?  Also, not all attacks are about the attacker throwing punches or kicks to hit their victim.  Some are about grabbing them, tackling them, hitting them with an object.  So how would you explain to a blind person how to do this technique or that technique when they can't see how you do a technique against something they cant see coming their way?  

I taught a blind person one time, and it changed my whole perspective and everything I did in reference to teaching martial arts.  I teach Wing Chun because for me it deals with a lot more of what is needed for self defense. . . . . sensitivity and touch.  However, even that is not the perfect art for everyone.  So I say to you, back to the drawing board.  Let us know in about 20 more years when you think you really have some decent skills and figured something out.


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## zepedawingchun

Xue Sheng said:


> Nothing for or against your style just a note
> 
> Kung Fu is a rather generic title
> 
> All of these can fall under Kung Fu and they are the same


 
I think he might have a white sash (belt) in all of those systems.


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## The Destroyer Style

I didn't say I have the perfect fighting style, I said if there is one I would like to know what it is. It also seems to me that everyone is talking about fighting systems that take a life time to learn. Some people don't have a life time. They can be taught simple things like eye gouges. Knowing anything is better then knowing nothing. I also stated that the techniques in the video are basics. If it was something hard to do how would it benefeit anyone. They are simple and to the point. They can even be countered easily. The whole point is I want to show people something that doesn't take forever to set up. My techniques do work. The techniques you have seen are for people who are just weaker as I have said. You all seem to be more worried about laughing me off, instead of trying to point in the right direction to help people. That makes you shallow. The color of belts and social standing are useless in a real fight. The one who survies wins the prize of his life. Some of you know this. Some of you will never know. Regardless, I will do all I can to help people. While you look down and tell them what they do wrong. Some of you here care and have given me good advice. Please continue to do so. I will consider all of it as I continue to train and devolpe. 

Cody


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## The Destroyer Style

I do not have any belts or certifacations. That doesn't make what I know any less valuble. If you are concerned with belt and social status. You are concerned with pride. I don't really care what people think about me at the end of the day. Living threw a life or death situation is the only thing that matters. Some people don't have a life time to learn how to defend themselves. While you worry about rank, a real person who fights in life or death situations worries about survival. Don't get me wrong, wanting to be better is good. The reason should be for helping others though. If we can't help other people defend themselves we are no better then the people attacking them. Even if your the best fighter in the world if that knowledge doesn't go to help others. You haven't did anything worth speaking of.


Cody


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## arnisador

Keep a good attitude, but go slow! You have plenty of time. Also, please don't throw people so close to an air conditioner (!).


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> There is no such animal for every single person and you are going to invent it either, especially with so little background in Martial arts


 
I've heard of a system called "Xuefu", I think it's Chinese.  Maybe if he does a little internet research he might be able to find some information about it.  I think it's pretty rare, but it's out there and I've heard it's really very good.  It's probably the closest thing to a perfect art out there.  If he finds it, he's a lucky man.

good luck.


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## The Destroyer Style

I've heard of a system called "Xuefu", I think it's Chinese. Maybe if he does a little internet research he might be able to find some information about it. I think it's pretty rare, but it's out there and I've heard it's really very good. It's probably the closest thing to a perfect art out there. If he finds it, he's a lucky man.

good luck.

Thank you I will look for it.


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## Omar B

No, belts and certifications are not "necessary," for self defense but in claiming to have developed your own system they sure as heck are.

You would never go to a doctor or dentist who only studied for a short time but then broke off to do things the way they saw fit.  I'm more willing to give someone certified in a system the benefit of the doubt.


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## Xue Sheng

Cody

For the record I have been at this MA stuff for over 30 years, Japanese Jujitsu, TKD, Shaolin Long Fist, Wing Chun, Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and a dash of Bagua and even a bit of Kendo and I would not try and start my own style, but I am a bit of a traditionalist so a new system of my own is of no interest to me.

But.

You have talked about some pretty violent acts (killing, eye gouging, etc.) you want to train people to do and a bit of advice, once they do them they, and you, have to live with that. And I can tell you from experience it is not fun or easy.

I will leave you with some things from my Sanda sifu said, which by the way does not take all that long to learn, it is the version what they teach the Chinese military and police. 

First he will not teach anyone he does not know or trust because he does not want to be responsible for someone taking what he taught them and using it to intentionally hurt other people.

But here is what he says about sanda. Sanda is not the best martial art it is just a quick and easy way to learn how to hurt some really badly. 

I have no issue with you wanting to help people learn MA but you simply do not have the background to do it yet. My best advice is to go train some other MA styles, possibly something like Aikido or an Internal Chinese Martial Art and learn about different types of handicaps and the physical limitations and advantages of those and then start putting it together. 

:asian:


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## Xue Sheng

The Destroyer Style said:


> I do not have any belts or certifacations. That doesn't make what I know any less valuble. If you are concerned with belt and social status. You are concerned with pride. I don't really care what people think about me at the end of the day. Living threw a life or death situation is the only thing that matters. Some people don't have a life time to learn how to defend themselves. While you worry about rank, a real person who fights in life or death situations worries about survival. Don't get me wrong, wanting to be better is good. The reason should be for helping others though. If we can't help other people defend themselves we are no better then the people attacking them. Even if your the best fighter in the world if that knowledge doesn't go to help others. You haven't did anything worth speaking of.
> 
> 
> Cody


 
I train Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, no rank, no belts, no sash and no certification

I also trained Sanda, no rank, no belt, no certification.

And my friend I like many on this site have been training MA longer than you have been on the planet. There are people on this site with more real live fight experience in real live nasty situation that anyone should have to deal with from LEO to Military to people that were unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. For crying out loud I have leather jackets older than you and you are starting to take the pulpit and heading into condescension here and that will get you no where.

You came here with a new style and you simply do not have the background to back it up, based on what you posted, to do it... yet.

What you want to do is commendable but you are approaching this from the most violent position possible by talking about killing and eye gouging and calling it "Destroyer style". You need more training and more life experience and to calm down a bit and then you should start working on your style to help people and if it is truly what you want to do then take the time to do it right.

Might I suggest a book by Phillip Star the making of a butterfly. See what he went through before he started his own style. Read about Kano Jigoro, Wang Xiangzhai, Lee Junfan, and Ueshiba Morihei to see what brought them to develop their own style. Look at the posts on MT of Brian VanCise since he has found himself in his own style after years of training. Check into them and then you might see why you are not getting the best of responses to a couple of years in MA that being only MMA and Tkd and now talking about starting your own style.

You say it takes years and you want to help people learn faster, well you can do that but it will take you years of MA training and understanding to get to the point where you can do that, and if you are truly sincer in your goal you will take the time to learn it so you don&#8217;t hurt yourself or others needlessly.

Where to you think Sanda came from, might want to look into that as well


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## Flying Crane

Tez3 said:


> Sucker Punch is a film which has an MMA fighter mate of mine in it! My instructor was in a couple of scenes.
> http://www.suckerpunchthemovie.com/sucker_punch/
> 
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist but as the film title says..you don't see it coming.


 

shameless plug.


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## grado

cool, I like this simple and easy things.


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## Chris Parker

The Destroyer Style said:


> I do not have any belts or certifacations. That doesn't make what I know any less valuble. If you are concerned with belt and social status. You are concerned with pride. I don't really care what people think about me at the end of the day. Living threw a life or death situation is the only thing that matters. Some people don't have a life time to learn how to defend themselves. While you worry about rank, a real person who fights in life or death situations worries about survival. Don't get me wrong, wanting to be better is good. The reason should be for helping others though. If we can't help other people defend themselves we are no better then the people attacking them. Even if your the best fighter in the world if that knowledge doesn't go to help others. You haven't did anything worth speaking of.
> 
> 
> Cody


 
Hi Cody,

Not fond of repeating myself, but I'll make a few comments here regarding the way things are going.

To begin with, a sucker punch has been dealt with well by others, saying pretty much everything I would say, including the way to defend against it is with awareness. That really should be the focus for you based on what you are saying you are wanting to show here, not talking about killing and eye gouging. That is ego and machismo talking, not understanding of "life an death fighting", as you put it. And your clip is not a defence against a sucker punch, it is a (honestly fairly flawed) defence against a straight left.

But to the quoted paragraph above. No, belts and certifications are not required to survive, but they are an indication of experience, knowledge, understanding of particular arts. You are coming across as lacking in all of the above, to be honest. Every post you have made is showing a lack of maturity, hence you being asked at one point how old you are (I believe 21?). My advise is simple; recognise that you are young, and relatively inexperienced, but certainly have your heart in the right place, or at least headed in theright direction. But I would caution against spouting generalisations and truisms to those who have lived this for more years than you have been alive.

Oh, and again, look to the way you are posting. You are using a period-break to separate parts of a sentence into different sentences, and that changes the way they are read, and the inherrent meaning gleaned from your words. If you are a "published author" as you claimed, this should be obvious to you.


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## MJS

The Destroyer Style said:


> I do not have any belts or certifacations. That doesn't make what I know any less valuble. If you are concerned with belt and social status. You are concerned with pride. I don't really care what people think about me at the end of the day. Living threw a life or death situation is the only thing that matters. Some people don't have a life time to learn how to defend themselves. While you worry about rank, a real person who fights in life or death situations worries about survival. Don't get me wrong, wanting to be better is good. The reason should be for helping others though. If we can't help other people defend themselves we are no better then the people attacking them. Even if your the best fighter in the world if that knowledge doesn't go to help others. You haven't did anything worth speaking of.
> 
> 
> Cody


 
So is it safe for me to read this as you have limited training in the arts that you listed, the ones that you're basing this "Destroyer Style" off of?  While I myself, put rank on the back burner, and focus more on learning and improving myself, I also feel that the person who is teaching, whatever it may be, should have a solid enough background, and IMHO, a few months here and there, with nothing really solid to back it up, is not only deceiving the people you teach, but also yourself.  

I mean, this would be like a white belt in Kenpo taking classes for 3 mos. and then deciding that he's learned enough, runs out and starts teaching others.  I'm sorry, but with that little amount of time, he's not going to be teaching much.


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## MJS

theletch1 said:


> A true sucker punch IS defendable... by using situational awareness.  The absolute first thing that must be taught in a self defense class is being aware of your surroundings, obeying the rule of the three stupids, putting forth an aura of not being a victim... hell, you could almost spend a year teaching that without ever getting into physical technique.
> 
> There are, quite literally, hundreds of years worth of martial arts experience bound up in the membership here at Martial Talk. You'll find that you'll have to be on top of your game to offer anything "new" here but if you are truly sincere and passionate about what you're doing most folks here will be willing to give good, honest feedback.


 
Correct on both parts of your post.  To address the first part....if the punch was seen, but it was late, it is possible to defend, but it'll most likely be a flinch response on our part, that "Oh ****!" moment, where something like Tony Blauers Spear will come into play.  

As for the second part of your post...I couldn't agree more.  There're a ton of great people here, with alot of skill, and lots of good background in training.  But yes, the 'new' stuff...well, alot of what I've seen isn't so much new, but same old stuff, much of which can be found in other arts, but re-packaged as if it was something new.  *shrug*


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## MJS

I'm going to comment on both of these posts.  Here goes....




The Destroyer Style said:


> I think its only fair to question, and I don't want to invent something, just take what is useful for (a certain kind of person from each style.)


 
But actually, that is what you have done.  




> The styles I have taken don't have any help for people who are weaker, or handicapp.


 
So, there are no arts that can be done by a smaller, 'weaker' person?  I beg to differ.  The handicap....well, depending on what it is, will depend on what that person can do anyways.  If they're confined to a wheelchair, anything involving kicks is out.  However, hand techs. can be modified for that purpose.  




> That is why I want to make this. My experience is one year in a MMA class, There I learned Jujitsu, Boxing, Mauy Thai/Kick boxing. I was under a year in Tae Kwon Do, those are all that are on record. I also learned Kung Fu, and Military tactics from a friend, who I call my uncle. He started me thinking differently when I was twelve years old. Thats why I say I have been working on it for so long. I'm not saying I am a master. I am just saying I know enough to at least give someone a way to protect themselves.


 
IIRC, I touched on this in another post, but I'll do it again here.  I do not feel that we should have to train for 30 years before we can use our art, but....we need to have a solid foundation in order for us to base our material on.  A year in the average MA class, will most likely be beginner level, maybe just touching on intermediate.  You will still be limited as to what you can do and teach.  





> The best way to do that is to mix all these together for now.


 
So by mixing them all together, technically you're creating something new.  I mix a Kenpo and Arnis tech. together, but I'm not running around trying to create something 'new'.  Its still 2 seperate arts.  




> If later I learn something more useful I will add it as well. If you know of the perfect martial art I would really like to know it. I have always been taught that if you can't change and adapt in fighting you will never learn anything.


 
But the main difference is, people need to have a foundation first.  Gotta walk before you run.  





> Anyone who can throw a jab can fight. All martial arts do is show them how to do it more effectively.


 
My wife can throw a jab.  Does that mean she can step into the ring and use it effectively?  Yes, the arts will refine that, but that is what I'm talking about, when I mention having a base/foundation.  




> Thats what I intend to do. I don't worry about critisicm though. Words can't do anything to me, I do appreciate your advice though. If any of you know any certain style that helps mostly handicapp people I would like to know of it. I have alot of people I know who could use it.


 
This line tells me that you really are not interested in hearing what we're saying to you.  IMO, if you were, I'd think that you'd want to get some solid training first, before taking someone under your wing.  



The Destroyer Style said:


> I didn't say I have the perfect fighting style, I said if there is one I would like to know what it is. It also seems to me that everyone is talking about fighting systems that take a life time to learn. Some people don't have a life time.


 
Krav Maga is known for its simple and effective techniques, that're quick and easy to learn.  But this does not mean that you dont have to practice.  Again, I too do not feel that one should have to wait 30yrs, BUT, you need to have a solid base first.  What you're doing is really no different than what a 1 or 2 week womens SD class does...it teaches some basic stuff, but its highly unlikely that the women who took that class, will ever do that stuff again.  If you dont continue on in your journey, then you'll most likely be limited as to how far you can go in regards to defending yourself.  





> They can be taught simple things like eye gouges. Knowing anything is better then knowing nothing.


 
And I could show my wife how to do that...BUT...if I don't keep working with her, if her foundation sucks, her stances suck, her footwork and movement suck, she can throw all the eye jabs she wants...but they'll all suck!  This, IMO, is what you seem to be missing.  You think that all it takes is a few simple moves.  Sorry, thats not the case.  




> I also stated that the techniques in the video are basics. If it was something hard to do how would it benefeit anyone. They are simple and to the point. They can even be countered easily. The whole point is I want to show people something that doesn't take forever to set up. My techniques do work. The techniques you have seen are for people who are just weaker as I have said. You all seem to be more worried about laughing me off, instead of trying to point in the right direction to help people. That makes you shallow. The color of belts and social standing are useless in a real fight. The one who survies wins the prize of his life. Some of you know this. Some of you will never know. Regardless, I will do all I can to help people. While you look down and tell them what they do wrong. Some of you here care and have given me good advice. Please continue to do so. I will consider all of it as I continue to train and devolpe.
> 
> Cody


 
Ummm.....yes dude, I am concerned with pointing you in the right direction.  I've got over 20yrs under my belt.  What do you have again?  There are others here, in this very thread, that have alot of knowledge as well.  Whats upsetting you, is our replies.  You're not hearing what YOU want, so you're getting upset.  Sorry, I'm not sugar coating anything for you.  I'm being honest and upfront.  Sorry if you dont like that.  

Again, you're worried about the quick route, yet looking at those clips, I saw no movement or footwork and if it was there, IMO, it wasn't that good.  I'm assuming that you've also covered or plan on covering the 'what if' phase of a technique?  You do know what this is dont you?  Thats what you do when your original tech. fails and you have to adapt and do something else.  This my friend is going to take a bit longer than a few classes.  

My suggestion, should you choose to take it, which after reading your replies, you probably wont but I'll say it anyways....spend some quality time in an art.  Get a good base, a good foundation, and go from there.


----------



## Chris Parker

Okay, one more.



The Destroyer Style said:


> I didn't say I have the perfect fighting style, I said if there is one I would like to know what it is.
> 
> Yes, you have never claimed to have a "perfect" style, however, you have claimed to have a system designed with the handicapped/disabled in mind, and have yet to show anything that is actually geared towards their needs. That might be the issue you are coming across here. And as has been said (many, many, many times here and elsewhere, by myself and many others...), there is no such thing as a "perfect" system, if there was, we would all be learning it!
> 
> It also seems to me that everyone is talking about fighting systems that take a life time to learn. Some people don't have a life time.
> 
> No, what we are talking about is the fact that it takes a long time to master such an area of knowledge. I can realistically get someone completely street-effective in about 3 months, but it is going to be some of the most painful, scary, uncomfortable 3 months that person will ever go through! But I cannot get them to master a complete art in such time, that will take years at the least. But without that understanding, creating a new art will not really be possible, as you will simply not have the knowledge or understanding of the underlying principles that will be needed to create such an art.
> 
> They can be taught simple things like eye gouges. Knowing anything is better then knowing nothing.
> 
> Although an eye gouge can be physically simple, it is quite another thing to overcome the social considerations and generate the mindset required to actually use such a technique. Even in high stress environments, people can get quite squeamish. But if that is what you are looking for, and you want advise on other systems to look to, check out Richard Dmitri's Senshido, in particular their "Shredder" concept, used as a go-to concept for any close-quarters defence. Again, there's no need to go around re-inventing the wheel just because you lack the experience to know where it already is (and for the record, Richard's Shredder is little more than an application of Ninjutsu's Shako Ken, or similar from many other Japanese and Chinese arts, as well as I'm sure many many others).
> 
> With regard to your last statement there, there is a phrase which can be very well applied to martial arts study, and that is "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". In essence, having a little experience, and believing you actually know what you are doing is not good. You can do more harm than good here, by trying half-tested ideas, having a false sense of their applicability (due to a lack of understanding of the variations in different environments, which just comes from a lack of experience), and much more. And in regards to a student having a little knowledge, if they put all their faith in one technique (an eye gouge), as that is all they know, and cannot apply it, or it doesn't work, that can actually lead to more panic than if they didn't have it at all, which can put them in even more danger.
> 
> I also stated that the techniques in the video are basics. If it was something hard to do how would it benefeit anyone. They are simple and to the point. They can even be countered easily.
> 
> Basics are good (although it could be argued what alternative would you have, given your limited experience), simple and to the point is good as well. No-one is arguing those points. The argument is how are these geared towards the handicapped, as that has been your claim.
> 
> The whole point is I want to show people something that doesn't take forever to set up. My techniques do work.
> 
> Your techniques do work... for you. In the way you have them shown here. With a compliant partner. Not sure about the rest. But as for something that "doesn't take forever to set up", I'm not really sure what you are talking about. Many arts are just as direct, and require just as little set up. Within the Ninjutsu schools, many techniques are trained and taught from what we refer to as a Shizen no kamae, or Shizentai. This is a "natural posture, or natural body", and is simply you just standing there, with no pre-set posture or set-up, and many other arts do just the same thing. Again, you are trying to reinvent a wheel due to not knowing that many others have been riding around on theirs for years.
> 
> The techniques you have seen are for people who are just weaker as I have said.
> 
> You know, I didn't know where I was going to put this part, but here seems as good a place as any. I'm going to go through your clips one by one, and we'll see how they stack up against your claim here.
> 
> CLIP 1: SELF DEFENCE (Quote from the opening blurb) "This is my own fighting private style, The Destroyer Style. It is a mixture of all fighting styles I know. I have used only techniques that work. All of my techniques could permanently injure an opponent so please do not practice them unless you do them slow and cautiously. Never fight unless it is a life or death situation. Every life is valuable and should be protected...."
> 
> Well, this little blurb is quite an impressive sounding one, until you look closely an see that what you are saying is that you are experienced (not from everything else we've seen), and you are fixated on the violence (come on, you called this system for smaller, weaker people "The DESTROYER Style?"). And there are plenty of reasons to fight without it being life and death, and plenty of assaults that are not life threatening, so your definitions are fairly limited. But I think we know where that comes from.
> 
> First Technique. Jab/Knife Counter (From the clip "I would break the arm before getting the choke").
> 
> Okay, against a left jab (which is not really going to hit you), you redirect to your left with your left hand, catch the throat/face from over their left shoulder with your right hand, and take the other guy over backwards. If we are to use your description as to who you think this is going to work for, your a bit off. To begin with, your attacker is not punching to target, instead he is hitting short and off to the side (your left), allowing you to get your catch easily. He also drops his guard entirely, and just goes along with your movements after his part is done, so I see little evidence of it working at all here.
> 
> But more to the point. If we assume that there is a proper attack, then you need to work on your evasion there, and that may not be possible for a handicapped person (depending on the handicap itself). You have also done absolutely nothing to allow you to get your "choke" there. A simple hit to the ribs (under the attacking arm) would do that, and can flow in quite nicely. But the weirdest thing is if this is designed for a smaller, weaker person, then why are you taking someone forward (with the redirection), then switching them backwards without anything to get them going that way themselves? If the defender really is shorter or weaker, then this technique is flawed, and from a "this really works" standpoint, it needs work, especially if you are going to go against a knife (WAY more control of that hand needed there). But really, if you have broken the arm (against a knife), get out, there is no need to continue! That is ego, son.
> 
> Oh, yeah, and that hammerfist is weak and unnecessary. There are far better choices for this defence (still following your flow) for someone smaller or weaker.
> 
> Second Technique: Defence against a jab/right cross combination.
> 
> Against a left/right combo you have elected to stand your ground (again little evasion), and essentially wear two punches (although it helped that both were off target, and you were guarded). Between the attacks you flick out your right hand towards the attackers left shoulder (pushing him back? Jamming his shoulder? Badly targetted punch?), and kick him back with a right stomping kick. Well, that kick will require a fair amount of strength, so you are again contravening your own ideas here. As well as that, an attacker won't stay far enough back for you to use that kick, so it's a poor choice on a few levels. And you don't get anywhere near enough power into it (see how you are knocked back yourself? That's what I mean). So this one fails for smaller/weaker people, as well as as a practical technique for the street in the set-up you have here.
> 
> Third Technique: Jab/Knife Counter.
> 
> Well, you catch the attacking arm (still missing any evasion here, but the attacks aren't coming to you either), and push your knee into the back of the opponents knee to drive him down, then pull him back and stomp/kick him in the head. If we take this as a jab defence, then it is overkill, the kick to the head is you going to jail for assault. But before that you need to be able to catch the jab, and that ain't easy. If we take this as a knife assault, you really need to get much better control on the attacking arm, cause you get opened up quite badly in this demo. And again, this technique is not really well suited to weaker or disabled people, as well as being rather flawed on a few levels. The common thread of these techniques is you taking the opponent in different directions by forcing them physically. If you want this to work for smaller/weaker people, that will need to change. Spend some time (a few years at least) training in Aikido to get a better understanding of this.
> 
> CLIP 2: Sucker Punch.
> 
> Leaving behind the fact that this is not a sucker punch, let's look at it. Against a punch from a distance (which is not going to reach you, by the way), you lean back (the first evasion I've seen here), and bring your hands up to block/deflect the punch, then lean forward and hit to the face (jaw or ears?), and end with the same kick as earlier (left this time). This is actually your best one. Hitting to the ears (if you are) is a better tactic than many others you have stated, and is a good disruptor. But bear in mind the potential damage that can be done. If it's to the jaw, it needs a lot more behind it for you to have any effect, so I'm going to assume you are going for the ears. But realise that without such a compliant partner (who is leaning back before the first hit, and falling before your kick), you will simply not have the distance to perform this, let alone a smaller person having the power to have that kick as a primary tool (although hitting the ears will mean less power will be needed).
> 
> CLIP 3: Simple Hip Toss.
> 
> Well, what to say here. Frankly, the technique is okay, but not particularly well done. What leaps out at me the most, though, is your lack of concern for the safety of your partner. I do some very hard, nasty things with my training partners, but it is always safe and with concern for their wellbeing. I see none of that here, and that tells me that you have a long way to go in your maturity. But you're young, so you have time. Just stop trying to leap ahead so much, you are just going to stumble and fall.
> 
> You all seem to be more worried about laughing me off, instead of trying to point in the right direction to help people. That makes you shallow.
> 
> No, Cody, we are not laughing you off, we are pointing out that you do not have the requisite knowledge or experience to do what you are claiming, and in responce we are trying to point you in the right direction. And that direction is to a school with an experienced teacher, so you can realise that what you think you are inventing is a limited version of what is actually out there. Thinking that you know better than those here with less than a year in MMA and less than a year in TKD is far more arrogant.
> 
> The color of belts and social standing are useless in a real fight. The one who survies wins the prize of his life. Some of you know this. Some of you will never know. Regardless, I will do all I can to help people. While you look down and tell them what they do wrong. Some of you here care and have given me good advice. Please continue to do so. I will consider all of it as I continue to train and devolpe.
> 
> We've covered the belts thing on another thread, but to reiterate, belts are a way of showing experience and understanding. And again, not every fight is life and death. I believe your heart is in the right place, but if you really want to help people in this way, take the time to get the required knowledge and experience before proclaiming yourself the founder of a non-system. Learn from those who have been there, and have done that.
> 
> Cody


 
Finally, and this is for the Mods here, might I suggest we move this thread to the General Martial Arts section, or the General Self Defence section? I think it's only guys posting, and there is nothing I can find to make this relevant to the Women's forum.


----------



## Franc0

The Destroyer Style said:


> I do not have any belts or certifacations. That doesn't make what I know any less valuble. If you are concerned with belt and social status. You are concerned with pride. I don't really care what people think about me at the end of the day. Living threw a life or death situation is the only thing that matters. Some people don't have a life time to learn how to defend themselves. While you worry about rank, a real person who fights in life or death situations worries about survival. Don't get me wrong, wanting to be better is good. The reason should be for helping others though. If we can't help other people defend themselves we are no better then the people attacking them. Even if your the best fighter in the world if that knowledge doesn't go to help others. You haven't did anything worth speaking of.
> Cody


 
Sounds like a junior Phil Elmore in the making


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## Bruno@MT

Additionally, if you -do- manage to come up with something that could be considered valuable as a style, using words like 'destroyer' 'kill' 'maim' etc will make it hard for you to be taken seriously anywhere.


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## Bruno@MT

The Destroyer Style said:


> If I would have fought thirty people with any of the fighting styles I had learned or even just 2 people. I would have died, or at least been crippled up. My experience is from life.



If you fight 30 people using any style you would have ended up dead or a cripple. The only useful style in such circumstances is the 1 mile dash.

Doing something that would give 30 people a reason to beat you up is mistake number 1.
Ending up surrounded by them is mistake number 2.
That is the lesson you should have taken away from that encounter.
Not the fact that your martial arts training wasn't sufficient in that context.


----------



## Bruno@MT

The Destroyer Style said:


> Don't get me wrong, wanting to be better is good. The reason should be for helping others though. If we can't help other people defend themselves we are no better then the people attacking them. Even if your the best fighter in the world if that knowledge doesn't go to help others. You haven't did anything worth speaking of.
> Cody



Hmm... I practise MA for me. Not for someone else. If someone else wants to be able defend himself or herself, then he or she will have to spend a serious amount of time in the dojo / boxing hall / whatever, just like I do.

The only persons whose self defense potential I will actively look after (and try to teach) are my daughters, because I care about them and because I am responsible for their upbringing. I am going to do my best to make sure they are able to take care of themselves. Everyone else is not my responsibility.


----------



## Tez3

Flying Crane said:


> shameless plug.


 

Probably wasted too lol as I doubt you can get the DVD in the States but hey you do it for mates lol! Ian Freeman though the MMA fighter in the film  has a lot of experience of fights both competitive and in the 'street', he was a doorman in a rough area of the North East of England for a long while. He's also the one who beat Frank Mir in UFC 38, the first of the UK UFCs.


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## Joab

To be blunt, you don't have the necessary training, experience, skill level and maturity to be developing a new martial arts style. Give it a number of years of serious training and you might get there, but your not there yet. I think you've learned a few things that could work, and I can see you teaching someone who knows absolutely nothing a few things here and there who doesn't have access to a qualified teacher, but thats about it. You need to learrn far more before you are able to come up with your own system, this takes time, hard work and discipline, and a whole lot more humility in the process from you to get there. Good luck in your journey, one you have barely begun quite frankly.

To be fair, I'm not all that much more advanced than you. To be fair, I'm fully aware I'm nowhere near ready to come up with my own system.


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## Chris Parker

(To the Moderators):

Hmm, actually, thinking about it, can we just merge this thread with "The Destroyer Style" one? We seem to be having the same discussion/argument in two places right now, and there are points being made in each that are relevant to each other...


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## zepedawingchun

Bruno@MT said:


> If you fight 30 people using any style you would have ended up dead or a cripple. The only useful style in such circumstances is the 1 mile dash.
> 
> Doing something that would give 30 people a reason to beat you up is mistake number 1.
> Ending up surrounded by them is mistake number 2.
> That is the lesson you should have taken away from that encounter.
> Not the fact that your martial arts training wasn't sufficient in that context.


 
Okay, don't be so easy on the kid, he's young, dumb, and full of delusions of grandeur.  Give him 20 years and he'll see how stupid he was.


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## morph4me

The Destroyer Style said:


> I didn't say I have the perfect fighting style, I said if there is one I would like to know what it is. It also seems to me that everyone is talking about fighting systems that take a life time to learn. Some people don't have a life time. They can be taught simple things like eye gouges. Knowing anything is better then knowing nothing. I also stated that the techniques in the video are basics. If it was something hard to do how would it benefeit anyone. They are simple and to the point. They can even be countered easily. The whole point is I want to show people something that doesn't take forever to set up. My techniques do work. The techniques you have seen are for people who are just weaker as I have said. You all seem to be more worried about laughing me off, instead of trying to point in the right direction to help people. That makes you shallow. The color of belts and social standing are useless in a real fight. The one who survies wins the prize of his life. Some of you know this. Some of you will never know. Regardless, I will do all I can to help people. While you look down and tell them what they do wrong. Some of you here care and have given me good advice. Please continue to do so. I will consider all of it as I continue to train and devolpe.
> 
> Cody


 

Simple is good, but there are other factors involved. If you don't practice a skill, no matter how simple, you lose the ability to use it under duress, if peope don't have enough time to practice the skills they learn, those skills degarade. Eye gouges are great, if you don't mind maiming someone, which is fine in a life and death situation, but not all attacks are life and death, and tehre are consequences for everyone involved. 

Frankly, with your experience, and the little knowledge that you've earned, you're likely to teach people just enough to get them hurt or worse. 

I could fight before I ever got into the martial arts, and I've been practicing for over 20 years, and I don't know enough to start my own style. I didn't see anything in the video that didn't require a certain amount of strength, and/or mobility, which the people you want to teach, don't have. You have good intentions, but it takes more than good intentions to create a new style.


----------



## MJS

Just a quick note:  The thread in the Womens martial art section has been merged with this one.  2 discussions on the same topic, so they've been merged.

Ok...back to our regular scheduled program.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Thanks MJS.


Cody if you listen to what people are saying it is pretty loud and clear that nobody here feels you have the requisite background ie. training, maturity, etc. to found a style.  Worse yet your lack of training may endanger anyone that you teach.  For one I think you should keep training and try to get better and seek adequate instruction.  Forget the Destroyer Style and try to get good at some thing.  Good luck and I hope you reconsider your path in this endeavor!


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## Omar B

It's not only years of training required to teach.  It's years of training's effect upon the body.  The claims to be able to teach the disabled is quite lofty but I see no mentions of degrees in medicine, Physical Education, Kinesiology or anything of the sort.  A healthy person practicing the martial arts can royally mess themselves up through repetitive action, a disabled person, even more-so.  My best friend is in a wheelchair and he practices aikido so that question's already been answered.

I always use the example of Master Choi, founder of Choi Kwang Do.  He was a high ranking teacher in TKD and had great tech. but after years of snapping kicks and punches it had adverse effects on his joints.  He modified the movements from linear to a more circular approach, had to change entire delivery systems and then practiced these for another crap-load of years while still in TKD till he had enough time to see how these new movements would affect the body ... Then he started Choi Kwang Do formally.

A new style does not come after a couple years here or there.  It comes from men who have been in a style for years, decades even.


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## punisher73

What is your overall curriculum?  What basics do you teach? What are their progressions?  What drills do you use to implement them?

Also, what is the overall strategy you are trying to employ?  All of your techniques need to be bound in an underlying strategy so that they can flow into one another. 

How do you deal with varying levels of force?  A wrist grab from a co-worker at a company party does not need the same response as the same type of wrist grab from someone trying to get you into a car to rape you.

If you are dealing with handicap people, what emotional/mental strategies do you have to help with their self-esteem and not being withdrawn in some cases?

What skills do you employ for precontact and de-escalation?  Fights just don't happen, how do you teach others to defuse the situation?


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## The Destroyer Style

Doing something that would give 30 people a reason to beat you up is mistake number 1.


A friend of mine tried to stop a gril from being beat to death, it was over a gang issue. They injured my friends spine and the police had not yet arrived. So quite simply even if I had run with him on my back I highly doubt we would have made it far. 

I do see what you all are saying, there are alot more fighting styles then I even knew existed out there.  I will do my best to find some of these schools to train in. I hope you guys don't think I'm trying to say I know as much as you. If I didn't want advice I wouldn't have come here to begin with. Its just frustrating to find out I don't have alot to offer for helping people.


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## Nolerama

I think your heart is in the right place. If you go about learning from one style, and supplement it with your knowledge from existing arts, and train all of it in an alive manner (your compliant partner is nothing more than a breathing punching bag... so find live partners willing to train at your level/speed) then I see no reason why you wouldn't explore your own fighting philosophy.

Specifically, find statistics on disadvantaged victims. Look up what (generally) happens when a wheelchair-bound/paraplegic/etc victim gets mugged or attacked. However, I'm sure that many of those folks would probably defend themselves with something other than a hand to hand MA... Or just travel in a group of friends.

Ultimately, I think you'll rethink the Destroyer Style and scrap it as a style per se, and internalize it as your own as your move along your MA journey.

Again, get an instructor level in a real art. Then formulate your own theories from there. Think about it: the people you want to help are in need of it from a SD point of view. You would want to give them the best perspective possible, right?


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## wushuguy

Just my two cents here, I'm one who was and still is toying around to "create a new style", but it is more for my personal benefit, to help me think about the motions of the styles that I learned and the principles taught by them, and see if it's possible to come up with different ways to apply the same principles while still being effective. A new style is really difficult to learn, let alone to create one.

While I do teach, I currently teach Wing Chun and also Escrima, eventually I will teach the style I'm creating. but for now, the "new style" is just something to keep me entertained and exploring the martial arts while I am still learning.

Like every one is saying and will likely continue to say, we are all students to the martial arts, even after a lifetime, we'll still be students as there's always new things to gain even from the existing arts. After we all gain more experience, we'll likely find that many "missing aspects" in this or that style, may have been there, but to the untrained eye, it was not there, therefore one decided to "make a new style to fill in the missing links" I know it has been like this for me. The more I think about what was missing in Wing Chun, trying other arts to "fill in the gaps" actually i find more that Wing Chun already had it, but wasn't obvious until I learned better.

Anyway, hope you can find people's advice and experiences from MT helpful for you.


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## zDom

I was a lot like you, Cody  20 years ago.

What I didn't mention in my first post was that I effectively used several of the "moves" that I had been shown. In high school, I subdued an attacker with a guillotine choke. In a bar's gravel parking lot, I "hip tossed" someone while being attacked by five guys. Later that same night, I fought off three guys (until I stopped to make sure one was OK) with a set of home-made escrima sticks.

I won't go into the dozens of physical confrontations in which I put to use that basic karate punch my dad showed me. I was what my grandmother calls "a scrappy kid."

So for me, the belts and rank thing WAS a pride thing: it was a matter of leaving my pride at the door, of humbling myself, to strap on a white belt and bow to kids wearing black belts (who I probably could have beaten in a fight) in order to LEARN.

By the time I got to green or blue belt a couple of years later, I realized that "knowing a few moves" is a LONG way from "knowing karate" (or judo, or taekwondo  insert ANY martial art name).

It was simply being introduced to a technique FROM karate, or judo, or taekwondo and, through a "scrappy nature" being able to put it to good use.

Then, by the time I was a black belt  another two years after blue or green *I realized how little I had REALLY known as a green belt about the ART of taekwondo. At green belt, I had some decent familiarity with a few of the techniques, some solid training  but at that point, I was still forging the TOOLS that are needed to REALLY learn the ART of taekwondo.

And now, about 15 years of studying the art of martial arts as a black belt, I realize how much I have learned about "fighting" since I've been training at the black belt level.

And even now I realize I still have a LOT to learn. Martial art training is a wonderful journey.

So I am pretty sure I understand where you are coming from. Here's the thing:

By focusing on teaching others, you are missing out on a WORLD of stuff to LEARN.

I hate to break out a martial art cliche, but it is clearly applicable here:

EMPTY that cup! And then find someone to help you fill it.

There are plenty of things that are learned by remaining a student  long LONG after you THINK you have begun to learn.

Wishing you all the best,


----------



## Omar B

Wonderful post zDom.  I myself at times get overwhelmed at the wealth of material in any art, I've held a black belt since 16 and I'm 28 now and I can honestly say I'm still a student, I'm very self conscious about teaching anyone anything and realize that I don't have to go make something up that's more effective.  It's all there, you may not understand it, but it's there.  

It's just like how at a certain point you realize, I really don't have to block, but that takes years of learning, gaining speed and fight psychology.


----------



## The Destroyer Style

Omar B said:


> Wonderful post zDom. I myself at times get overwhelmed at the wealth of material in any art, I've held a black belt since 16 and I'm 28 now and I can honestly say I'm still a student, I'm very self conscious about teaching anyone anything and realize that I don't have to go make something up that's more effective. It's all there, you may not understand it, but it's there.
> 
> It's just like how at a certain point you realize, I really don't have to block, but that takes years of learning, gaining speed and fight psychology.


 
You can't dodge everything though, for that matter you can't block everything either. I do know what you mean though. If you don't have to hit the guy and can just move out of the way, do it. I'm just saying like you said it takes along time to get to that point. Someone without experience needs every plus they can get. Also I would say that a life and death situation does change from person to person. A knife might not seem like a big deal to someone trained, but someone who isn't is in trouble. Even a master can make a mistake and get cut. You also have to take in account of how skilled is the guy you are fighting. There is no level where you don't have to block. Just a level difference between you and the person you fight.


----------



## Omar B

I wasn't talking about just dodging or blocking.  There's a lot to be learned for you yet.  There are parrys, there are simultaneous parry/strikes, cants, it goes on.  Blocking or dodging are just the tip of the iceberg.

You seem to be refuting a lot of things I did not even say.  Self defense situations differing?  Knife attacks?  You seem to be responding to a lot of stuff I did not say.


----------



## Tez3

Omar B said:


> I wasn't talking about just dodging or blocking. There's a lot to be learned for you yet. There are parrys, there are simultaneous parry/strikes, cants, it goes on. Blocking or dodging are just the tip of the iceberg.
> 
> You seem to be refuting a lot of things I did not even say. Self defense situations differing? Knife attacks? You seem to be responding to a lot of stuff I did not say.


 


He's probably answering many different points in one post even though he's quoted yours to answer first. it's an easy thing to do. Destroyer Style should be given credit for sticking in here though so it's worth a decent discussion to see if we can all widen our knowledge, we've had some good posts so far.


----------



## Nolerama

Destroyer Style: Could you list some of the techniques/drills that your style performs in the striking and grappling ranges? Do you train weapons? If so, what weapons?


----------



## Marginal

The Destroyer Style said:


> Also I would say that a life and death situation does change from person to person. A knife might not seem like a big deal to someone trained...


I think the more you know about knives, the less inclined you are to tangle with one.


----------



## arnisador

The Destroyer Style said:


> Also I would say that a life and death situation does change from person to person. A knife might not seem like a big deal to someone trained, but someone who isn't is in trouble. Even a master can make a mistake and get cut.



Make a _mistake _and get cut? Knife fighting might be a _lot _more dangerous than you think, even for a well-trained person.


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## The Destroyer Style

I'm sorry I  was trying to answer a couple at once. There are alot of posts. I just felt like yours was a good point to consider. I think There was a question about do I train with weapons, or do I teach weapons? I have in the past, but my thoughts were, when will I ever have a sword in my hand at a public place. It may sound weird, but I spend hours working on ways to fight with chairs, tables, ect. Things that  may be found in an actual public place. Not saying that a person who knows how to use a weapon couldn't pick up something and fight. I like to think that improvisation is what makes a style or technique personal. I do show people who ask for some help grappling. I don't like (alot of grappling) not all , because it pulls you off into a one on one fight. If you have multiple attackers you need to keep moving. If you keep moving its harder for them to get behind you and you might actually get away from them. I think it was also asked how would I show basic techniques and progress someone in them? Sorry if I'm off on the questions some. Usually if someone asks me to help them train, it depends on their mobility. If they cannot stand. I will sit in a chair across from them and we will go threw drills. There is not alot of range to dodge in a chair, so I have them practice movements with their gaurd up. Its actualy pretty easy to flip a chair over when you are franticly moving from side to side. After I get them use to relaxing while blocking and counter attacking with things like boxing movements. I teach them how to set up for an elbow, because from a sitting down position its sometimes difficult to use an elbow. Then I will show them how to use arm locks and other grappling techniques to bring them closer. From there I teach them techniques for eye gouges, groin hits, ect. Thats usually the process for someone who can't stand up.
If they have a complete range of motion I will add in kicks, and knees. I think it was Chris who asked if I was reallt published because of my awful writing skills. Yes I am, but I use their spell check system and the editor fixes the sentence structure. I don't so don't put alot of time into finding out how to spell words correctly on here because it would take a while. Also the comments for the videos are true, but keep in mind we have no camera man, so I can't really do to much moving around or we will move out of range or not the camera over. I think you also pointed out that  technique with the hammer fist was weak, I do agree. It was not meant to make contact, I just wanted to show what you could do. The clip that you thought I attacked his ears, was actually just as it looks. I push his head back to make him off balance, then kick him over. It doesn't take alot of skill and not alot of physical force. I think you talked about the hip toss as having a lack of concern for my friend. The reason we are laughing in the video is because he said, ( Watch I will completely miss those cushions and when I do I am going to laugh). You see as I posted on the video we had to shoot them a couple times to get the right angle. I didn't mean to throw him in the floor, but on the cushions. I laughed because I though about what he said, not because I thought he was hurt. Also I would like to point out that, I was only hitting him with about 25% if that in the other videos. The kick you spoke of where I was off balance, if I had followed threw I may have hurt him. I'm sorry I didn't answer you sooner, your comments are some if not the longest on here. I wasn't trying to be rude just wanted to try and answer them all at once and just now had time to sit down and do it. If I have left anyone out who wrote me I appologize, I will try to get to you I usually work threw the day though. Thank you guys for your help Cody


----------



## Omar B

Paragraphs man.  I'm not reading some giant wall of text.  Do you even separate ideas?


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## The Destroyer Style

Omar B said:


> Paragraphs man. I'm not reading some giant wall of text. Do you even separate ideas?


 
1.Typed it quickly

2. Up to you

3. Only in my mind, or when it is to someone I am trying to impress


----------



## The Destroyer Style

Bruno@MT said:


> Hmm... I practise MA for me. Not for someone else. If someone else wants to be able defend himself or herself, then he or she will have to spend a serious amount of time in the dojo / boxing hall / whatever, just like I do.
> 
> The only persons whose self defense potential I will actively look after (and try to teach) are my daughters, because I care about them and because I am responsible for their upbringing. I am going to do my best to make sure they are able to take care of themselves. Everyone else is not my responsibility.


 

I took a while to think about this. Its actually a double edge sword. If I try to help someone I don't even know that is being attacked I may die.
However, to help you see threw my eyes a little. Imagine the person being attacked was one of your daughters and I died trying to save her. From what you have said I you were me, you would walk on by. Don't worry though I wouldn't leave anyone that couldn't defend themselves to die. I hope this is not what you meant, but its kinda the impression I got. As for no one else being my responsibility. If I see anyone that I can help that wants it, they are my responsibility. No matter if I walk away from it or not.


----------



## Omar B

The Destroyer Style said:


> 1.Typed it quickly
> 
> 2. Up to you
> 
> 3. Only in my mind, or when it is to someone I am trying to impress



1.  So the enter key takes forever to push?
2.  I know, and I didn't read it.
3.  I would hope you are not trying to impress anyone here.  But communicating effectively involves things like grammar, sentence structure, paragraphs, spelling, etc.  The things you say you do in your mind but don't bother to do while typing it out in a coherent manner, effectively renders your thoughts simply ineffective communication and moot ... so why bother posting if you are not going to do so effectively?


----------



## Chris Parker

(For Omar to be able to read it properly, with a few additions...)



The Destroyer Style said:


> I'm sorry I was trying to answer a couple at once. There are alot of posts. I just felt like yours was a good point to consider.
> 
> This I believe was in reference to Omar's earlier responce, and whether it was really about what he had posted... I think. No reference here, so hard to be sure...
> 
> And answering multiple posts and questions is great, but please reference them. This is one way of doing it, but I think I may copyright it, so you may need to find your own...
> 
> I think There was a question about do I train with weapons, or do I teach weapons? I have in the past, but my thoughts were, when will I ever have a sword in my hand at a public place.
> 
> Now this may sound a little out of place, but when did you train with weapons such as swords? Not one of the arts you have claimed (and I think we have established that you have presented a rather embelished list, saying you have trained BJJ and Muay Thai when you have trained MMA for a short while) involves weapon training, especially older weapons such as a sword. So have you actually trained (been taught by a qualified instructor), or just played around with them yourself?
> 
> It may sound weird, but I spend hours working on ways to fight with chairs, tables, ect. Things that may be found in an actual public place.
> 
> Hmm, weird is one word for it. Borderline illegal and fantasy-based may be another. You think about how to fight "with" chairs and tables, as you can find themin a public place? One question, do you love watching the WWE as well (not a disparagement, I'm a big fan myself, Triple H is my favourite)? It ain't the same, I'm afraid.
> 
> Remember that anytime a weapon is brought into a situation (including you starting to hit people with chairs), you are escalating the situation and therefore the legal ramifications of such. And from your posts here, it appears that you don't quite understand the realities of what you are talking about, and the real physical and legal trouble you are opening people up to.
> 
> Not saying that a person who knows how to use a weapon couldn't pick up something and fight. I like to think that improvisation is what makes a style or technique personal.
> 
> Well, I would say that you are jumping ahead. The first thing to do is to train it so the skills are a part of your natural actions, and only after you truly understand them can you start to get into the adaptation/variation aspect to "personalise" the system. Too many people jump ahead to the "I do it my way!" approach without spending the appropriate timedeveloping their skill. This leaves their resultant techniques sadly lacking, and with little chance of improvement.
> 
> Within Japanese arts, there are three stages of learning, known as Shu, Ha, Ri. Shu is that first stage, where you do as shown, and do not vary it at all. This instills the strategies and movements of the art, and gives you the building blocks to allow you to later start to adapt. Ha gives you a little more freedom, allowing you to adapt the individual technique itself, but the initial technique should still be recognisable. By the time you reach Ri, the principles are completely internalised, the techniques are thrown away, and an art is truly personal.
> 
> With your described history I would suggest that you never got further than Shu, and not very far into that before leaving and thinking you understood it all. In other words, you have very prematurely put yourself past the Shu stage, into the Ha stage. However, I don't think you have placed yourself at the Ri stage, mainly because I don't think you are aware of it...
> 
> I do show people who ask for some help grappling. I don't like (alot of grappling) not all , because it pulls you off into a one on one fight. If you have multiple attackers you need to keep moving. If you keep moving its harder for them to get behind you and you might actually get away from them.
> 
> Okay, this is where those references come in handy...
> 
> You show people who ask for help? Okay, but that doesn't make you a teacher, that makes you someone who was asked by someone else who probably knows even less than you do.
> 
> Liking or not liking grappling is fine, and against groups I agree, it is not the best choice. But what you should be looking to is group management, rather than just keep moving. It's a good initial startegy, but needs development. But I won't get too much into that here, this is looking like it's going to be a long enough post as it is.
> 
> I think it was also asked how would I show basic techniques and progress someone in them? Sorry if I'm off on the questions some. Usually if someone asks me to help them train, it depends on their mobility. If they cannot stand. I will sit in a chair across from them and we will go threw drills.
> 
> My question here is simple. Who is asking you to help them train? Is it just friends, past training partners, are you advertising somewhere?
> 
> There is not alot of range to dodge in a chair, so I have them practice movements with their gaurd up. Its actualy pretty easy to flip a chair over when you are franticly moving from side to side. After I get them use to relaxing while blocking and counter attacking with things like boxing movements. I teach them how to set up for an elbow, because from a sitting down position its sometimes difficult to use an elbow.
> 
> Hmm, not sure I agree with this approach. Most people in wheelchairs are more likely to be grabbed, rather than hit, so I would go more through resistant grappling and anti-grappling tactics. And an elbow? What on Earth for? You even admit it's not easy (so it's not going to be a high return tool) to apply, the distancing is not suited as the person in a wheelchair would be lower (further away from the main viable targets) and it is just not a good option to take them through.
> 
> Then I will show them how to use arm locks and other grappling techniques to bring them closer. From there I teach them techniques for eye gouges, groin hits, ect. Thats usually the process for someone who can't stand up.
> 
> Ah, grappling. Good, it is in there. How about this though, why is the person in a chair? Is it paraplegia, or are you including things such as cerebral palsy which will limit the other motor functions as well? Can you see why we are saying that to develop an art for the handicapped is like saying you will develop a system for mammals without taking into account the many various conditions you will need to take into consideration?
> 
> If they have a complete range of motion I will add in kicks, and knees.
> 
> Okay, this is the editor in me... Why have you started a new paragraph (albeit without separation) within the same though structure for one sentence, then continued with a completely separate one immediately following?
> 
> I think it was Chris who asked if I was reallt published because of my awful writing skills. Yes I am, but I use their spell check system and the editor fixes the sentence structure.
> 
> No, I was more talking about the way you would start new sentences. Using a period stop. Instead of a comma. Even when it was the same sentence. That just shows. A complete lack of understanding of grammer. Your spelling is another issue. But you, my friend, are no writer.
> 
> I don't so don't put alot of time into finding out how to spell words correctly on here because it would take a while.
> 
> I don't even know what to say about this... But at least you are consistent! Learning a martial art properly would take time, so you don't bother, instead deciding you know it all and can correct the mistakes and short sightedness of those who have sadly wasted years studying. And it seems the same approach is taken for spelling. Takes too long, can't be bothered, I'm an author you know!
> 
> You have submitted articles to a self-publish site, that does not make you an author. You have had very little training, but have thought a lot about fighting with chairs and tables, while thinking about eye gouges and kill-or-be-killed fights around every corner. That, I'm afraid, does not make you a martial artist or instructor.
> 
> Also the comments for the videos are true, but keep in mind we have no camera man, so I can't really do to much moving around or we will move out of range or not the camera over.
> 
> So why make them that way? If it isn't showing what you really do, but you keep showing them as examples of your approach, why not just wait until you can do it properly? Oh, and my comments were more that your techniques were flawed, not just the lack of evasion (although that was a part of it).
> 
> I think you also pointed out that technique with the hammer fist was weak, I do agree. It was not meant to make contact, I just wanted to show what you could do.
> 
> Then what was the point? You showed that you could over-reach for a technique that was overkill, and ineffective to boot? What exactly does that show?
> 
> The clip that you thought I attacked his ears, was actually just as it looks. I push his head back to make him off balance, then kick him over.
> 
> Oh boy. The big issue here is that your "attacker" was already moving back, and frankly pushing his head back if he is really coming forward is just not going to work. Again, a very flawed technique.
> 
> It doesn't take alot of skill and not alot of physical force. I think you talked about the hip toss as having a lack of concern for my friend. The reason we are laughing in the video is because he said, ( Watch I will completely miss those cushions and when I do I am going to laugh).
> 
> Yeah, but you dropped him through badly positioned cushions (which are very poor safety considerations, really), and when he landed on his side, he was coughing and spluttering, which could indicate injured ribs, you walked off. I don't care what you or he said before the filming, that is not the way to look after your training partner.
> 
> You see as I posted on the video we had to shoot them a couple times to get the right angle. I didn't mean to throw him in the floor, but on the cushions. I laughed because I though about what he said, not because I thought he was hurt.
> 
> See above.
> 
> Also I would like to point out that, I was only hitting him with about 25% if that in the other videos. The kick you spoke of where I was off balance, if I had followed threw I may have hurt him.
> 
> "Through", dude, not "threw". Oh, and with a throw like that, the way you hold back is to hold him up as he falls, dropping him and claiming that you were only going 25%, but ignoring the impact of the floor, is not understanding throwing or safety, so don't do it until you understand that. This is part of the maturity we are talking about, in teaching, knowledge, and simply growing up. You're young, recognise that you still have a way to go.
> 
> Again, if you can't do the videos properly, why are you doing them?
> 
> I'm sorry I didn't answer you sooner, your comments are some if not the longest on here. I wasn't trying to be rude just wanted to try and answer them all at once and just now had time to sit down and do it. If I have left anyone out who wrote me I appologize, I will try to get to you I usually work threw the day though. Thank you guys for your help Cody
> 
> Yeah, I do go on every now and then... but I like to be thorough. There is no need to apologise if you take on board what we are saying.


----------



## Xue Sheng

First my apologies, I did not want to go through all of this to get the quotes so I simply used Chris&#8217; since I am responding to him and The Destroyer Style. 

Basically the stuff in the quotes in blue is from Chris and the stuff in black in the quotes is The Destroyer Style



Chris Parker said:


> _It may sound weird, but I spend hours working on ways to fight with chairs, tables, ect. Things that may be found in an actual public place. _
> 
> _Hmm, weird is one word for it. Borderline illegal and fantasy-based may be another. You think about how to fight "with" chairs and tables, as you can find themin a public place? One question, do you love watching the WWE as well (not a disparagement, I'm a big fan myself, Triple H is my favourite)? It ain't the same, I'm afraid._
> 
> _Remember that anytime a weapon is brought into a situation (including you starting to hit people with chairs), you are escalating the situation and therefore the legal ramifications of such. And from your posts here, it appears that you don't quite understand the realities of what you are talking about, and the real physical and legal trouble you are opening people up to._


 
Just a note here, and when I found this out it came as a surprise to me as well, but there are Southern Chinese Martial Arts styles that trained to use a bench as a weapon since that was what would be readily available to them in a house, restaurant, bar, tea house of the time



Chris Parker said:


> _Not saying that a person who knows how to use a weapon couldn't pick up something and fight. I like to think that improvisation is what makes a style or technique personal. _
> 
> _Well, I would say that you are jumping ahead. The first thing to do is to train it so the skills are a part of your natural actions, and only after you truly understand them can you start to get into the adaptation/variation aspect to "personalise" the system. Too many people jump ahead to the "I do it my way!" approach without spending the appropriate timedeveloping their skill. This leaves their resultant techniques sadly lacking, and with little chance of improvement._
> 
> _Within Japanese arts, there are three stages of learning, known as Shu, Ha, Ri. Shu is that first stage, where you do as shown, and do not vary it at all. This instills the strategies and movements of the art, and gives you the building blocks to allow you to later start to adapt. Ha gives you a little more freedom, allowing you to adapt the individual technique itself, but the initial technique should still be recognisable. By the time you reach Ri, the principles are completely internalised, the techniques are thrown away, and an art is truly personal._
> 
> _With your described history I would suggest that you never got further than Shu, and not very far into that before leaving and thinking you understood it all. In other words, you have very prematurely put yourself past the Shu stage, into the Ha stage. However, I don't think you have placed yourself at the Ri stage, mainly because I don't think you are aware of it..._


 
As to training weapons, I agree with what Chris is saying here since the same pretty much goes for Chinese weapons as well, we&#8217;re just not as formal about it as the Japanese stylists (You guys are WAAAAY to serious ). But even in CMA styles such as Xingyiquan levels are important and you need to fully understand one before you go on to the next if you ever hope to actually understand it and use it properly. And this stuff takes time&#8230;. A lot of time and if ones goal is to help others than one would, I believe, take that time to do it right

But alternative weapons are a good thing to think about later. Keys can be a weapon and tightly rolled up magazine can be a weapon and for that matter so can a hot cup of coffee. 




Chris Parker said:


> _I think you also pointed out that technique with the hammer fist was weak, I do agree. It was not meant to make contact, I just wanted to show what you could do. _
> 
> _Then what was the point? You showed that you could over-reach for a technique that was overkill, and ineffective to boot? What exactly does that show?_


 
Another note based on CMA. A hammer fist if you are coming up against a properly trained Shaolinquan of Changquan person is devastating and you might want to take a defense against it a bit more seriously if you are going to demonstrate it. Also note if they are attacking with a hammer fist it is generally followed by many more hammer fists much the same as a 3 section staff with the body as the stationary staff and the arms as the ones coming at your head.


I give The Destroyer Style props for hanging in here, taking the hits and responding and also realizing that he needs more training. But it would help to use proper punctuations and spelling in a medium where proper punctuation and spelling are what is being used to get ones point across. This is something I do not always get right myself, particularly if I am in a hurry. That&#8217;s why, if time allows, I tend to write EVERYTHING in MS Word first to check myself before posting


----------



## The Destroyer Style

The point of the videos is to show things that people could do, not have to do. No I do not watch wrestling I never could get past the bad acting. I am not saying that I have made it to any kind of level, or that I am an instructor. I show people defences that ask me for help.  Keep in mind that an elbow can be used in many different ways. I do agree that somone could grab a person in a wheel chair, but unless they did it from behind they could just hit them in the groin. 
I will try to take more time to answer these question btw so you its easier to read. You can say I'm not an author or anything else, I don't really care. I will point out that if I am surrounded I am not going to worry about going to jail, so I would pick something up. I do tell people that its considered a weapon and they may get into trouble for it. However if they would rather get beat to death or die is up to them.
I don't really recomend killing anyone if you don't have to. I just recommend protecting yourself to the best of your abilities. If you are surrounded then you have to stop one person before you can move to the next. I base my strategies in life or death situations because I would rather be prepared for it. I hope you don't I'm saying if someone spits on you or something to go stomp him in the throat. Laugh it off and walk away as long as he doesn't attack you.


----------



## wushuguy

> _It may sound weird, but I spend hours working on ways to fight with chairs, tables, ect. Things that may be found in an actual public place_


 Reminds me of Jackie Chan movies, he had the cool moves with just about anything laying around. If you could post some of your chair/bench/table work, it would be interesting to see, also gives us a chance to analyze your techniques. After people comment on the techniques though, gotta be prepared for some constructive criticism, because people with more experience and more training will likely point out flaws in the techniques, the pointing out might seem harsh, but it's in face helpful for you because you can find ways to improve yourself.


----------



## Omar B

Chris, you had me laughing there.  Thanks.  

Football time, I'll check in at the half.


----------



## Jenna

Well arguments aside, I think your remit is laudable in trying to reconcile techniques from disparate arts that are relevant to people with a disability.  So I say a genuine well done for what you are attempting!!  Also I am glad you are facing your critics here without any aggression and with a degree of openness - and most people here are responding to your openness with constructive criticism, so long as you keep your art's claims to a modest level  No new art can claim anything until it is tested and proven, yet that does not preclude it from EVENTUALLY upholding the claims it initially wants to make  Patience and restraint I think 

I would just like to suggest a few things maybe if that is ok?  And you do not have to answer me, I have no argument to make only I want you maybe to have some things clear in your own head  OK so if I were attending a new style specifically designed for say women, I might reasonably expect the oringinator of the style to be a woman also, no? To understand what I as a woman need from an MA I mean.. You know you have been asked for credentials for the various arts you have proficiency in.. To me, that would show itself one way or the other in your exposition of your new art.. I would rather know, without wanting to be overfamiliar.. if you yourself suffer or have suffered any incapacity that might qualify and temper your knowledge and your application and tuition of this new style?  No, of course that is not a requisite and but I think it is relevant, no?

Also, I have some experience of mentoring people with disabilities and though they are as likely to want to take up a martial art as anyone, there are a great deal of concomitant difficulties for them that would translate into difficulties for you.. I just wonder do you have experience of teaching the people you are pitching your art at? And finally that would lead me to ask would you discriminate against the type of disability you can cope with?  The nature of disability is a very widely encompassing term.. Not all fit the image you have painted of a wheelchair user with sound upper body mobility..

Again I seek no argument only I wish you good luck because I have not encountered anything so specific in this way, and but I think what you propose has merit if you get everything straight and have a willingness and commitment to follow through.  So yes, good luck 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## The Destroyer Style

wushuguy said:


> Reminds me of Jackie Chan movies, he had the cool moves with just about anything laying around. If you could post some of your chair/bench/table work, it would be interesting to see, also gives us a chance to analyze your techniques. After people comment on the techniques though, gotta be prepared for some constructive criticism, because people with more experience and more training will likely point out flaws in the techniques, the pointing out might seem harsh, but it's in face helpful for you because you can find ways to improve yourself.


 
Ok, I think that would be a great idea. It might help me find a way to use more things to fight with as well. I will have to get some help together to film something like that. I will work on something of that nature to share.


----------



## Chris Parker

Hi Xue Sheng,



Xue Sheng said:


> Just a note here, and when I found this out it came as a surprise to me as well, but there are Southern Chinese Martial Arts styles that trained to use a bench as a weapon since that was what would be readily available to them in a house, restaurant, bar, tea house of the time
> 
> Yeah, I've come across that idea as well. In Japanese arts Japan never really cottoned onto the concept of chairs, so there are a number of schools that give actions and movements from a position seated on the ground, and I have used these patterns to develop techniques for when seated in a chair.
> 
> But this is different to fighting "with" a table. I'm all for using the environment (aiming people at walls can be fun!), but deliberately thinking through ways of using a table or chair is more the realm of the Pro Wrestler, not the martial artist. The martial artist has internalised the principles of his art, and can adapt those principles to changing environments, they don't get caught up in "what if?" scenario-running, as that is inherrantly negative in terms of their development.
> 
> As to training weapons, I agree with what Chris is saying here since the same pretty much goes for Chinese weapons as well, were just not as formal about it as the Japanese stylists (You guys are WAAAAY to serious ). But even in CMA styles such as Xingyiquan levels are important and you need to fully understand one before you go on to the next if you ever hope to actually understand it and use it properly. And this stuff takes time. A lot of time and if ones goal is to help others than one would, I believe, take that time to do it right
> 
> Too serious? TOO SERIOUS!?!?!? I'LL SHOW YOU SERIOUS!!!!!!!!
> 
> I mean, uh, yeah! What you said!
> 
> But alternative weapons are a good thing to think about later. Keys can be a weapon and tightly rolled up magazine can be a weapon and for that matter so can a hot cup of coffee.
> 
> We have a program we call "Travel With Confidence", and it involves use of a magazine in confined environments. Essentially it came from various plane flights, and is designed around an inflight magazine... that was a fun program. Love improvised weapons. But you are absolutely correct, that comes after you have trained in weaponry in the first place.
> 
> Another note based on CMA. A hammer fist if you are coming up against a properly trained Shaolinquan of Changquan person is devastating and you might want to take a defense against it a bit more seriously if you are going to demonstrate it. Also note if they are attacking with a hammer fist it is generally followed by many more hammer fists much the same as a 3 section staff with the body as the stationary staff and the arms as the ones coming at your head.
> 
> Oh yeah, I have been hit hard by hammer fists, and hit others hard with hammer fists myself, so I have no doubt as to what can be done with them. In fact one of our most commonly used tools in ground defence (particularly when in a top-position) is a hammer fist. You can generate an extreme amount of force with those things, and have far less risk of injuring your hand than with a straight fist.
> 
> My point was more that the particular example given was not a good choice, nor was it particularly well performed. But yeah, those things can hurt!


----------



## MJS

Cody,

I'm not even going to go through the last few pages, but I do want to say this.  As I've said, you sound like your heart is in the right place.  My suggestions, if you really want to give someone the most out of your efforst, would be the following:

1) People need a solid foundation.  In other words, dont start them with techs. right off the bat.  Stances, proper footwork, movement, proper technique with punching, kicking, etc.

2) Work at getting good with empty hand stuff first, then worry about weapons.  Why?  If someones basics suck empty handed, they're not gonna be any better with a weapon.

3) Much like empty hand, you need to know what you're doing with a weapon.  That'll include movement, targets, etc.  

4) Its always best to have some solid training in whatever it is that you're teaching.  In other words...while it may seem pretty easy to say you'd just pick up a knife or any weapon and use it, fact is, if you're not using it properly, no sense in picking it up in the first place.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Hello Chris



Chris Parker said:


> _But this is different to fighting "with" a table. I'm all for using the environment (aiming people at walls can be fun!), but deliberately thinking through ways of using a table or chair is more the realm of the Pro Wrestler, not the martial artist. The martial artist has internalised the principles of his art, and can adapt those principles to changing environments, they don't get caught up in "what if?" scenario-running, as that is inherrantly negative in terms of their development._


 
HEY!!!! Jackie Chan fights with tables, chairs, ladders, refrigerators, sacks-o-concrete and just about anything else&#8230;&#8230; um&#8230;err&#8230;. well&#8230;so what if it is for movie 

It is good to be aware of ones environment, that is, IMO, one of the best ways to avoid a fight all together and the possibility of using what is around you is always there and that tends to start appearing after a few years of training anyway, and I would agree that one is approaching the WWE when it comes to fighting with tables and chairs (using as weapons not actually fighting a table and/or chair... but trees, well that's different ) But many years ago I started to think that later in ones training it might be a good thing to start to think about &#8220;what if&#8221; I was attacked right here and right now, how best to respond, admittedly I never even considered this until I read something from Bruce Lee that talked about this type of thinking. But a few years after that I began to think that using a what/if approach to training locked you into a response that is not necessarily what is needed for the situation at hand so I stopped and then just focused on training and trusting in what I had trained. But regardless early on one needs basics, basics and more basics and also, IMO, obsessing about the &#8220;What if&#8221; scenario will in the long run get you or someone else hurt or worse. 

And to be honest if one is attempting to develop an MA for the Handicapped then I would think that using a table or chair for anything other than a barrier to place between you and the attacker would be entirely out of the question. 


Chris Parker said:


> _Too serious? __TOO__ SERIOUS!?!?!? I'LL __SHOW__ YOU SERIOUS!!!!!!!!_
> 
> _I mean, uh, yeah! What you said!_


 
_You see, you Japanese MA guys just need to lighten up a bit, us __CMA__ guys are just happy go lucky all the time :EG:  _



Chris Parker said:


> _Oh yeah, I have been hit hard by hammer fists, and hit others hard with hammer fists myself, so I have no doubt as to what can be done with them. In fact one of our most commonly used tools in ground defence (particularly when in a top-position) is a hammer fist. You can generate an extreme amount of force with those things, and have far less risk of injuring your hand than with a straight fist._
> 
> _My point was more that the particular example given was not a good choice, nor was it particularly well performed. But yeah, those things can hurt!_


 
Actually after I posted that I realized the pattern I was thinking about was more like hammer right fist, back right fist, hammer left fist, back left fist, hammer right fist, back right fist, etc. But there is a windmill type hammer fist attack as well. 

I agree it was not a good choice and it was not done well either and my post, although admittedly far from clear, was directed more to Cody and not to you, But since I was being lazy and not separating posts well, or at all actually, I see I had your response in there as well, sorry about that


----------



## jks9199

The Destroyer Style said:


> The point of the videos is to show things that people could do, not have to do. No I do not watch wrestling I never could get past the bad acting. I am not saying that I have made it to any kind of level, or that I am an instructor. I show people defences that ask me for help.



Then you are instructing.  Any you have the responsibility to know what you're doing if you're going to do it.  Right now, you don't.  You're interpreting how to help them based on poor understanding of real violence. (Can you name any good sources of information on real violence?  I'm talking statistical analysis, or work by people who have really been there and done that.  Yeah -- I have several sources in mind.)  And your solutions are based on incomplete understanding of the martial sciences involved.





> Keep in mind that an elbow can be used in many different ways. I do agree that somone could grab a person in a wheel chair, but unless they did it from behind they could just hit them in the groin.


I dare say I probably know more ways to use an elbow as an offensive or defensive weapon than you.  It would be difficult for a person with limited mobility and muscle control to develop more than one or two effective elbow strikes because they will have to rely on their arm strength almost exclusively.


> I will try to take more time to answer these question btw so you its easier to read. You can say I'm not an author or anything else, I don't really care. I will point out that if I am surrounded I am not going to worry about going to jail, so I would pick something up. I do tell people that its considered a weapon and they may get into trouble for it. However if they would rather get beat to death or die is up to them.
> I don't really recomend killing anyone if you don't have to. I just recommend protecting yourself to the best of your abilities. If you are surrounded then you have to stop one person before you can move to the next. I base my strategies in life or death situations because I would rather be prepared for it. I hope you don't I'm saying if someone spits on you or something to go stomp him in the throat. Laugh it off and walk away as long as he doesn't attack you.



You really need to learn what you're talking about.  Use of force law is complex, and takes effort to learn.  And I personally would very much prefer not to go to jail...  Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather know what is permissible or justifiable so that I have the best chance to avoid going to jail.


----------



## MJS

jks9199 said:


> It would be difficult for a person with limited mobility and muscle control to develop more than one or two effective elbow strikes because they will have to rely on their arm strength almost exclusively.


 
Ya know, I was wondering the same thing myself.  I for one, am looking forward to some video clips while seated, so we can have more to go off of.


----------



## jks9199

MJS said:


> Ya know, I was wondering the same thing myself.  I for one, am looking forward to some video clips while seated, so we can have more to go off of.


There are ways to throw elbows with great power from a seated position or the ground -- but to get any real power requires utilization of muscles that often aren't available or fully functional in a person who is confined to a wheelchair.  Just sitting and leaning/twisting as a fully-able person, it's easy to miss how much work your lower body is doing to support your movements...

Years back, the TV show *Hill Street Blues* had a story arc where a detective had to go undercover in a wheelchair.  At first, he was coached by a guy who was truly confined to the chair -- and the guy tore into the detective as the cop got out of the chair to lift it up over a curb...  The point I'm trying to make with this story is that we can't simply "think" ourselves into a wheel chair or hold our arm still for a person with an impaired arm...  You have to work with the person extensively to figure out what they can do.  I had a classmate who had lost a lot of function in one arm because of a car crash.  To help him, we would all sometimes simply hold our arm still -- but it wasn't quite the same, and we often had to resort to "give this a try" and then tweak as he worked with the technique.  (Incidentally, he did earn his black belt as one of the first under the ABA's revised testing which includes a very demanding physical fitness test...)


----------



## The Destroyer Style

jks9199 said:


> There are ways to throw elbows with great power from a seated position or the ground -- but to get any real power requires utilization of muscles that often aren't available or fully functional in a person who is confined to a wheelchair. Just sitting and leaning/twisting as a fully-able person, it's easy to miss how much work your lower body is doing to support your movements...
> 
> Years back, the TV show *Hill Street Blues* had a story arc where a detective had to go undercover in a wheelchair. At first, he was coached by a guy who was truly confined to the chair -- and the guy tore into the detective as the cop got out of the chair to lift it up over a curb... The point I'm trying to make with this story is that we can't simply "think" ourselves into a wheel chair or hold our arm still for a person with an impaired arm... You have to work with the person extensively to figure out what they can do. I had a classmate who had lost a lot of function in one arm because of a car crash. To help him, we would all sometimes simply hold our arm still -- but it wasn't quite the same, and we often had to resort to "give this a try" and then tweak as he worked with the technique. (Incidentally, he did earn his black belt as one of the first under the ABA's revised testing which includes a very demanding physical fitness test...)


 

This is a very good commen since point that I have been waiting for someone besides me to say. I have received alot of questions asking what if someone has a different disability then what I am use to. The only way to really know what I could help that person with, would be to meet them and see what they are capable of. If a person only has one arm its going to be a whole different set up for them, then someone in a wheelchair. You are also right about the lower body being activated when you move from sitting position. I myself move seat and all when performing certain actions. For someone who can't twist at the hips I would have to make another way for the technique to be affective. My goal is not to tell someone ( Hey you can't do that because of your handicap lets try something else.) its to help them find a way to do it anyway.


----------



## The Destroyer Style

Jenna said:


> Well arguments aside, I think your remit is laudable in trying to reconcile techniques from disparate arts that are relevant to people with a disability. So I say a genuine well done for what you are attempting!! Also I am glad you are facing your critics here without any aggression and with a degree of openness - and most people here are responding to your openness with constructive criticism, so long as you keep your art's claims to a modest level  No new art can claim anything until it is tested and proven, yet that does not preclude it from EVENTUALLY upholding the claims it initially wants to make  Patience and restraint I think
> 
> I would just like to suggest a few things maybe if that is ok? And you do not have to answer me, I have no argument to make only I want you maybe to have some things clear in your own head  OK so if I were attending a new style specifically designed for say women, I might reasonably expect the oringinator of the style to be a woman also, no? To understand what I as a woman need from an MA I mean.. You know you have been asked for credentials for the various arts you have proficiency in.. To me, that would show itself one way or the other in your exposition of your new art.. I would rather know, without wanting to be overfamiliar.. if you yourself suffer or have suffered any incapacity that might qualify and temper your knowledge and your application and tuition of this new style? No, of course that is not a requisite and but I think it is relevant, no?
> 
> Also, I have some experience of mentoring people with disabilities and though they are as likely to want to take up a martial art as anyone, there are a great deal of concomitant difficulties for them that would translate into difficulties for you.. I just wonder do you have experience of teaching the people you are pitching your art at? And finally that would lead me to ask would you discriminate against the type of disability you can cope with? The nature of disability is a very widely encompassing term.. Not all fit the image you have painted of a wheelchair user with sound upper body mobility..
> 
> Again I seek no argument only I wish you good luck because I have not encountered anything so specific in this way, and but I think what you propose has merit if you get everything straight and have a willingness and commitment to follow through. So yes, good luck
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 



I will try to answer your questions in order I'm sorry for not responding right away. I wanted to think on what you wrote before I answered. First I would like to say I feel it would be pointless to have aggression twoards anyone here. I think most of them are more concerned that I lack a certain knowledge and in more then some areas I do. I think we all do though, I am no better or worse then anyone. My reason for posting was hoping I could find some ideas or help to make what I am doing better and maybe help someone else. I will say that I feel the only way to prove what I am trying is to help someone with these problems over come them. 

I would like for what I do to be helpful to all people not just target  handicaps. I feel that the only real way to help someone is to help them make something their own. Alot of people can throw a punch, but not everyone throws it the same. What does not work for me could work for someone else. I have had alot of times in my life where I was unable to use my legs efficiently (walk/stand). This gave me alot of time to focus on how to approach things differently.

I did alot of physical therapy with my Grandma who was bedridden for over a year. She was a difficult person like me, so it was an argument the whole time . She eventually got strong enough to pick herself up and put herself in her wheelchair. She never fully recovered, but I think going from unable to turn over  in bed to standing on a walker and picking your own weight up is a victory in itself. I also have multiple friends with handicaps and have helped them get stronger. Some of them I do teach techniques to, some just wanted help getting stronger. I have a very good friend named Will who is certified in personal training that has helped me with alot of questions. I do plan to become certified as a physical therapist.

 If I don't know the answer to something I always try to find it for the person that asked me. If I knew someone who had problems with their legs as I did and still sometimes do. I would not expect them to be the same as me. I beleive in working at your own pace. I will try to give them a drive to want more, but will not tell them they have to be legendary in what they are doing.  If what they learn can improve their lives and gives them just a little more confadence from day to day I think thats more important then anything. I will say that the only way I could really know how I might help someone would be to meet them in person. If I failed to help them I would do everything I could to find someone that can. 

Thank you for you kindness

Cody


----------



## The Destroyer Style

To comment about the fighting with random objects. There are many different types of tables and chairs. I think you under estimate someone who has a wheelchair handicap. If they can physicaly hold up their own body weight picking up a folding chair, lawn chair, end table ect. Is well withing their physical abilities. You spoke about my maturity Chris and concerned about the violence I would teach someone. Wrestling teaches more violence in one hour then I could in a year. Not to mention the demoralization it causes in alot of kids.

I'm glad however that you are familiar with a folding chair. It can be used to keep an attacker back. When folded the it becomes a weapon with a good reach. That is important if you can't stand up. No, I don't mean swing it wild. Hold it by the legs in folded position and aim for knees like a knee kick. Aim for wrists if they have a weapon. Do you own a machedy? Weird question maybe haha. I do own one and guess what a folded up chair is longer. If I can out reach a machedy then definately a knife. That deffinatly will safe someone in a wheel chair. Also you think tables only come in one size? In many doctor offices, libraries, schools, ect. There are many different sized tables, chairs, books, even trash cans. It might be a joke to some of you, but it doesn't take alot of strength to pick these things up and use them.  

If you are out on the street thing such as trash cans, pop cans, even sticks or (limbs from trees) lol can also be picked up . If you idea of using a random object in a fight is to just ram someone into it you think intirely to much inside the box. I also highly doubt running someone into a wall is fun for them, nor hitting them with hammer fists just for the record. You attacked my maturity and called my techniques flawed. I can be immature, and all techniques have flaws in one way or the other.  I do however like to practice what I preach. Your bragging does indicate to me that you think very highly of yourself. I don't know all the ways to help someone, but I don't make a joke of others trying to help them. In the future if you can't be serious about trying to help, please just don't comment. There are alot of people that are giving good advice and I don't want to waste time talking to someone who is negative. If you can help someone help if not why waste time putting them down?


----------



## Chris Parker

Hi Cody,



The Destroyer Style said:


> To comment about the fighting with random objects. There are many different types of tables and chairs. I think you under estimate someone who has a wheelchair handicap. If they can physicaly hold up their own body weight picking up a folding chair, lawn chair, end table ect. Is well withing their physical abilities.
> 
> Fighting with random objects is possible after you have developed the base skills. You haven't spent anywhere near enough time in any school to have those base skills developed. As JKS said, there are various reasons people could be in wheelchairs, ranging from paraplegia, to quadraplegia, to debilitating syndromes such as cerebral palsy (which, as I said, one of our instructors in Sydney encountered in a student, and I have a cousin who has a form. My cousin is not confined to a wheelchair, although he was when he was younger, but the Sydney student was), so I do have a little experience in the restrictions that disabilities can give. However, I am not in a position where I would be confident creating a generic program for people with disabilities, and that is after more years training than you have been alive, my friend.
> 
> You spoke about my maturity Chris and concerned about the violence I would teach someone. Wrestling teaches more violence in one hour then I could in a year. Not to mention the demoralization it causes in alot of kids.
> 
> Demoralization? Actually, the WWE is considered quite a philanthropic organisation, with frequent visits to both hospitals to visit ailing children (through organisations such as Make-A-Wish), as well as a very close association with the US Military. They are considered a positive organisation, and use archetypal characterisations to instill concepts such as moral action through the use of Heels (the bad guys you boo on screen) and Baby Faces (the heroes, or good guys. The ones you cheer for).
> 
> It is also openly admitted to being pre-determined, hence their labeling themselves as "Sports Entertainment", yet still generate the ideals of fair play. If someone "wins" by cheating, or a short cut, it is made very clear to the audience that they have done so, and you then get to witness the results of such actions (retribution within their ilk). So you may be only looking at the surface there...
> 
> I'm glad however that you are familiar with a folding chair. It can be used to keep an attacker back. When folded the it becomes a weapon with a good reach. That is important if you can't stand up. No, I don't mean swing it wild. Hold it by the legs in folded position and aim for knees like a knee kick. Aim for wrists if they have a weapon.
> 
> Yeah, but not a good weapon. You are too open if you do swing it, and it is rather ineffective even as a barrier if you don't. And unless you are at a sporting event, they really just aren't that common. And there are too many "what if's" here, it really isn't an argument at all.
> 
> Do you own a machedy?
> 
> Do you mean a machette? If so, then no, I don't own one. Handled a fair few, though, and I'm more than familiar with them.
> 
> Weird question maybe haha. I do own one and guess what a folded up chair is longer. If I can out reach a machedy then definately a knife. That deffinatly will safe someone in a wheel chair.
> 
> No it won't. If you think it does keep someone with limited mobility safe when they are not swinging it around against someone with a knife or machette, then you have sadly misjudged your weapons.
> 
> To explain, if you are not swinging the chair, it becomes a dead object, and is doing nothing but occupying your hands. It can easily be grabbed (there is no edge to stop that happening), or simply knocked out of the way, leaving a wide opening for the knifeman, which can be taken in an instant. If it is being swung, then all the knifeman needs to do is judge his timing well, and you have the same thing. But even if it is being swung at me, I'm probably still going to knock it away with the (frankly) better weighted and better balanced machette, leaving the poor guy in the chair rather vulnerable.
> 
> But this is all "what if's", and I'm not fond of that game. It indicates a lack of understanding and confidence in your abilities to use your art. The very question "what if" implies that you need a specific answer to each and every situation, and that is not possible. If you truly understand your system, and have confidence in your ability to use and apply it, then the answer to any "what if" becomes "I use my art". And that is all there is to it.
> 
> Also you think tables only come in one size? In many doctor offices, libraries, schools, ect. There are many different sized tables, chairs, books, even trash cans. It might be a joke to some of you, but it doesn't take alot of strength to pick these things up and use them.
> 
> Well, depending on the table, it can take a fair amount of arm strength, especially if you have no use of your lower body to support it. Even the smaller coffee tables and end tables. Same goes with some chairs. As for trash cans, if we continue with the idea that the person is in a wheelchair, then the person will need to be close enough to reach it (and that will need to be pretty damn close), and be far enough from their attacker to reach over and get it before getting hit. Not easy.  Oh, and you are getting into fights in the doctors office? Really?
> 
> If you are out on the street thing such as trash cans, pop cans, even sticks or (limbs from trees) lol can also be picked up .
> 
> From a wheelchair with no or limited lower bdy mobility, you may find a number of the things you listed may often be out of reach.
> 
> If you idea of using a random object in a fight is to just ram someone into it you think intirely to much inside the box.
> 
> Ha, no, that was merely one example. I can get quite creative...
> 
> I also highly doubt running someone into a wall is fun for them, nor hitting them with hammer fists just for the record.
> 
> Nope, not fun for them... but if they attack me... (DISCLAIMER: and if it's warranted based on the attack intensity, and other surrounding factors)
> 
> You attacked my maturity and called my techniques flawed. I can be immature, and all techniques have flaws in one way or the other.
> 
> Actually I haven't attacked you at all. I could, if you'd like...
> 
> What I have said, however, is that you lack the maturity in terms of martial arts. You are inexperienced, have some very limited ideas, have some techniques that do not perform the way you think they do, and do not yet have the knowledge to be able to differentiate that for yourself.
> 
> I could start to talk about the way you are not addressing such things as the rhythms that exist in a fight, the way you are not breaking or using that rhythm, the different mindset an attacker has to your training partner, and much more. But the best way for you to understand that is to get a lot more experience, and that will mean putting aside the idea of being a teacher, as you still have a lot left to learn, and are not allowing yourself to do that.
> 
> I do however like to practice what I preach. Your bragging does indicate to me that you think very highly of yourself. I don't know all the ways to help someone, but I don't make a joke of others trying to help them.
> 
> Again, believe me when I say that I am far from bragging here. I have instead been positively modest...
> 
> You, on the other hand, have decided that after very minimilist training you know better than all other martial arts and martial art instructors out the (without really knowing much about any of them at all), decide that because you haven't come across what you think things should be like it doesn't exist (without realising that exactly what you are looking for cannot exist, as it has far too many variables attached), and put yourself in the position of instructor/creator of a system, and still refuse to acknowledge that you have jumped in way too early in your development as a martial artist. Despite your claims to the contrary, that is one giant ego you're feeding there.
> 
> As for practicing what you preach, I have said nothing here that I don't back up. You have made some claims, and those claims have been shown to be lacking. The only thing I can see that you practice as well as preach is that you are genuinely trying to come up with this system for whatever reason. If your reasons are as you claim, then I have said from the beginning that I appreciate where you are coming from, but if you are genuinely interested in helping people in this way, get the education first. If you are not interested in getting the education, then I can only surmise that your reasons are not what you claim, and this is all about you wanting to feed your ego. You wouldn't be the first we have had here, you know.
> 
> In the future if you can't be serious about trying to help, please just don't comment. There are alot of people that are giving good advice and I don't want to waste time talking to someone who is negative. If you can help someone help if not why waste time putting them down?
> 
> I'm sorry, what do you think I've been trying to do? As I said in my first post on this topic, this is all meant to be taken positively, and is meant to help you. I'll boil it down though, because it seems that you want my help to be something different.
> 
> You want to help people. That is commendable, and I fully support the idea.
> 
> However, you have insufficient knowledge and experience to do what you intend.
> 
> Therefore, get more knowledge and experience in order to help people as you want to.
> 
> If you want my help to be just patting you on the back when you are giving yourself and others false senses of security, safety, and reality, then you really have come to the wrong place.
> 
> I suggest you go back and re-read my posts to you, but this time without trying to "read into" them. Just read them, and see what I have been saying all along. It's really been very sweetness and light...


----------



## Omar B

There's no talking to someone who's got a false sense of their own capabilities.  That's why universities (and dojos) hand out certificates.  So there's physical proof of experience held and rightly earned.


----------



## Jenna

The Destroyer Style said:


> I will try to answer your questions in order I'm sorry for not responding right away. I wanted to think on what you wrote before I answered. First I would like to say I feel it would be pointless to have aggression twoards anyone here. I think most of them are more concerned that I lack a certain knowledge and in more then some areas I do. I think we all do though, I am no better or worse then anyone. My reason for posting was hoping I could find some ideas or help to make what I am doing better and maybe help someone else. I will say that I feel the only way to prove what I am trying is to help someone with these problems over come them.
> 
> I would like for what I do to be helpful to all people not just target  handicaps. I feel that the only real way to help someone is to help them make something their own. Alot of people can throw a punch, but not everyone throws it the same. What does not work for me could work for someone else. I have had alot of times in my life where I was unable to use my legs efficiently (walk/stand). This gave me alot of time to focus on how to approach things differently.
> 
> I did alot of physical therapy with my Grandma who was bedridden for over a year. She was a difficult person like me, so it was an argument the whole time . She eventually got strong enough to pick herself up and put herself in her wheelchair. She never fully recovered, but I think going from unable to turn over  in bed to standing on a walker and picking your own weight up is a victory in itself. I also have multiple friends with handicaps and have helped them get stronger. Some of them I do teach techniques to, some just wanted help getting stronger. I have a very good friend named Will who is certified in personal training that has helped me with alot of questions. I do plan to become certified as a physical therapist.
> 
> If I don't know the answer to something I always try to find it for the person that asked me. If I knew someone who had problems with their legs as I did and still sometimes do. I would not expect them to be the same as me. I beleive in working at your own pace. I will try to give them a drive to want more, but will not tell them they have to be legendary in what they are doing.  If what they learn can improve their lives and gives them just a little more confadence from day to day I think thats more important then anything. I will say that the only way I could really know how I might help someone would be to meet them in person. If I failed to help them I would do everything I could to find someone that can.
> 
> Thank you for you kindness
> 
> Cody



Dear Cody thank you for your reply.. I am not qualified to comment on your abilities, having not trained with you and but you are right.. I would imagine that there are people on forums who either come over as more proficient, or explicitly claim that they are more proficient in their arts than they doubtless are in reality.  That you, on the other hand, are willing to admit your shortcomings and know that you can work on reinforcing your skill and expertise is a very sensible approach.  I think you have the basis for a sound idea provided you are happy the workings of that idea are matched by your level of skill 

I am sorry I do not have specific advice.. well I would suggest being picky about which advice you take.. I think there are some here who are genuinely trying to offer help, though I think there might be others keener only to pontificate.. you can smell it in the air haha.. 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


----------



## Tez3

Jenna good post!
Destroyer Style should be congratulated on his calm posts whether one agrees with them or not, he has explained himself well and without resorting to insults etc. Stick around, it's nice to have you here!

On the subject of using whatever is around to defend yourself, Krav Maga makes a point of this and so does Bas Rutten if you look up his videos!


----------



## Bruno@MT

Tez3 said:


> On the subject of using whatever is around to defend yourself, Krav Maga makes a point of this and so does Bas Rutten if you look up his videos!



I actually trained once in the same Gym as Bas's sparring partner Leon Van Dijk (hope I wrote that right). I can honestly say that I've never been so afraid of another fighter as of him. He could've broken my spine with those kicks...

I digress. Bas has indeed some very effective SD type stuff, but he has built it on a MA career that none of us here can match. He is a certified trainer in a couple of Martial arts. He has the experience to trim an art to specific conditions, such as gender, disability or whatever.

I would not expect someone without any accreditation, any long term training or same breadth of experience to be able to do the same.


----------



## The Destroyer Style

Krav Maga also seems really easy to do, I like that. It doesn't give you around about solution, it just gives you a straight to the point answer.


----------



## The Destroyer Style

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Cody,


 
I do appreciate your help. I just felt you took it as a joke when I spoke about using something as a table or chair to fight with. I will try to post a video with some of my chair ideas, so you can tell me what you think. I am seeking a new school btw, so don't think I'm not listening to you. People are just asking about what I have come with so far, that why I am sharing it._ I did say in another post that I would have to meet a person to know what they are strong enough to do. _
_The techniques would change from person to person. I do agree also that someone with lack of arm strength may have trouble lifting a chair. I do beleive that if they have the ability to lift their own body weight, they can use a chair effectively. Not just by swinging it though, actually adding technique to it. It is hard to invision without seeing it. Soon as I get a third person to record I will put a video up._

_Thanks Cody_


----------



## The Destroyer Style

MJS said:


> Ya know, I was wondering the same thing myself. I for one, am looking forward to some video clips while seated, so we can have more to go off of.


 
I have put up some techniques from sitting position with use of elbows. Keep in mind that this is somone who can turn their hips. On more then one occation I think you will see the twisting of my hips rocking the chair back and forth. I use a plastic chair because it would flip easier then a wheelchair. Soon as I can I will get a wheelchair that will strap my legs down and try these again. These are only a few ideas, I didn't have alot of time to put into it so it is also edited kind of sloppy also. 
It is threw the same link as before. If you would please give me some ideas I would appreciate it.


Cody


----------



## Xue Sheng

The Destroyer Style said:


> Krav Maga also seems really easy to do, I like that. It doesn't give you around about solution, it just gives you a straight to the point answer.


 
You may want to also look at Systema as well


----------



## MJS

The Destroyer Style said:


> To comment about the fighting with random objects. There are many different types of tables and chairs. I think you under estimate someone who has a wheelchair handicap. If they can physicaly hold up their own body weight picking up a folding chair, lawn chair, end table ect. Is well withing their physical abilities. You spoke about my maturity Chris and concerned about the violence I would teach someone. Wrestling teaches more violence in one hour then I could in a year. Not to mention the demoralization it causes in alot of kids.
> 
> I'm glad however that you are familiar with a folding chair. It can be used to keep an attacker back. When folded the it becomes a weapon with a good reach. That is important if you can't stand up. No, I don't mean swing it wild. Hold it by the legs in folded position and aim for knees like a knee kick. Aim for wrists if they have a weapon. Do you own a machedy? Weird question maybe haha. I do own one and guess what a folded up chair is longer. If I can out reach a machedy then definately a knife. That deffinatly will safe someone in a wheel chair. Also you think tables only come in one size? In many doctor offices, libraries, schools, ect. There are many different sized tables, chairs, books, even trash cans. It might be a joke to some of you, but it doesn't take alot of strength to pick these things up and use them.
> 
> If you are out on the street thing such as trash cans, pop cans, even sticks or (limbs from trees) lol can also be picked up . If you idea of using a random object in a fight is to just ram someone into it you think intirely to much inside the box. I also highly doubt running someone into a wall is fun for them, nor hitting them with hammer fists just for the record. You attacked my maturity and called my techniques flawed. I can be immature, and all techniques have flaws in one way or the other. I do however like to practice what I preach. Your bragging does indicate to me that you think very highly of yourself. I don't know all the ways to help someone, but I don't make a joke of others trying to help them. In the future if you can't be serious about trying to help, please just don't comment. There are alot of people that are giving good advice and I don't want to waste time talking to someone who is negative. If you can help someone help if not why waste time putting them down?


 
Cody,

I'm not going to go into too much detail with my reply, as Chris already did a great job.   Just a few things....

Again, I think you're missing a few things that we're all trying to say here.  There is so much more than just saying, "I'll pick something up and use it."  On the surface, yes, it seems pretty easy, but as its already been pointed out, a) we need to take into consideration exactly what the person in the wheelchair can/can't do, due to their limited mobility and b) environment will also dictate what we can/can't use as a weapon.


----------



## Xue Sheng

MJS said:


> Cody,
> 
> I'm not going to go into too much detail with my reply, as Chris already did a great job.  Just a few things....
> 
> Again, I think you're missing a few things that we're all trying to say here. There is so much more than just saying, "I'll pick something up and use it." On the surface, yes, it seems pretty easy, but as its already been pointed out, a) we need to take into consideration exactly what the person in the wheelchair can/can't do, due to their limited mobility and b) environment will also dictate what we can/can't use as a weapon.


 

HEY!!!! I said that Way back here



Xue Sheng said:


> learn about different types of handicaps and the physical limitations and advantages of those


  

It is a very important point when developing an MA that is specifically geared towards the Handicapped. Just because a person that has no handicap and is in good physical condition can sit in a wheelchair and do something does not necessarily mean that a person confined to a wheelchair can.


----------



## Bruno@MT

About the folding chair: someone in a wheelchair might be able to wield one.
However, an attacker can grab it and then what? The man in the wheelchair cannot move his wheelchair since he has both hands on the folding chair. Thus he can easily be turned around, or the chair twisted out of his hands if he puts one hand on his wheels.

From that position, if the attacker has a machete, he can hack into the wheelchair person from various angles (including the legs), all with the wheel chair person unable to defend himself. Grabbing a folding chair is probably one of the most useless things he could do. He already misses the use of his legs, and now he lost the use of his arms as well.

In my unqualified opinion, the best thing to do is for him to keep his hands free so that he can at least do something, and perhaps use a knife of his own. I could be wrong but so can you. You won't know until you've strapped yourself in a wheelchair, strapped your legs so that you can't move them an inch or use them to brace yourself. And if you do that, I am willing to bet that the folding chair is not going to do you any good and that you are going to want either the use of your hands, or a small single handed weapon.

This folding chair idea is nothing more than an idea that has never been tested -for real- and it is dangerous to teach to others if you have no clue about the effectiveness for that situation.


----------



## Xue Sheng

On the topic of a wheelchair

It would seem to me that in order to use any large weapon effectively, and I will go with a folding chair since it is what is being talked about, from a wheel chair you would need to also be able to root and that would require putting on the brakes and seriously limiting ones already limited ability. Otherwise many of the strikes would send you rolling one way or the other, basic physics "''To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction". But then never having to fight from a wheelchair I could be way off on that.

There are Martial Artists out there that are confined to wheelchairs and maybe it would help to find them and talk to them about this.


----------



## Omar B

My best friend Tony's in a wheelchair, he does aikido and it works fine for him.  His sensei has taught other people with limited mobility over the years, in fact tony was introduced to the school when we went to a Slayer show and a guy backstage with one leg gave him a card.  To the point of elbow strikes and many strikes in general, they don't work, the farthest his arms go back are to the same place his back leans against the chair so his tech has to do mostly with forward and lateral strikes and defense.  Nor does he use weapons, because if his hands can't move then he can't move.  Also, one of the armrests in his chair is not screwed in so he can pull that put and wield it like an L shaped club (holding the padded part).


----------



## Tez3

Omar B said:


> My best friend Tony's in a wheelchair, he does aikido and it works fine for him. His sensei has taught other people with limited mobility over the years, in fact tony was introduced to the school when we went to a Slayer show and a guy backstage with one leg gave him a card. To the point of elbow strikes and many strikes in general, they don't work, the farthest his arms go back are to the same place his back leans against the chair so his tech has to do mostly with forward and lateral strikes and defense. Nor does he use weapons, because if his hands can't move then he can't move. Also, one of the armrests in his chair is not screwed in so he can pull that put and wield it like an L shaped club (holding the padded part).


 

Ok I've been rsisting this but can't any longer........whats a 'Slayer show'?


----------



## bluekey88

Slayer = Heavy Metal band.


----------



## Omar B

Slayer - 
Raining Blood http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR4ELGedtZU&feature=related
War Ensamble http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpMuCrbxE8A&feature=related
Angel Of Death http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0AGUywHntw&feature=related
South Of Heaven http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwLtTa2trRs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR4ELGedtZU&feature=related


----------



## The Destroyer Style

Xue Sheng said:


> You may want to also look at Systema as well


 

This stuff is awsome. I think alot of it could easily be done from sitting position. Is this a military combat style?


----------



## The Destroyer Style

MJS said:


> Cody,
> 
> I'm not going to go into too much detail with my reply, as Chris already did a great job.  Just a few things....
> 
> Again, I think you're missing a few things that we're all trying to say here. There is so much more than just saying, "I'll pick something up and use it." On the surface, yes, it seems pretty easy, but as its already been pointed out, a) we need to take into consideration exactly what the person in the wheelchair can/can't do, due to their limited mobility and b) environment will also dictate what we can/can't use as a weapon.


 
I agree. I think it depends on each persons abilities, what they would be able to do with a weapon. I'm hoping that they will also get strong enough to do it, if not already. I also don't want it to seem like this is a must. If someone has only one arm it would be hard for them to do it. I am thinking of someone who does have active use of their arms with this.


----------



## The Destroyer Style

Bruno@MT said:


> About the folding chair: someone in a wheelchair might be able to wield one.
> However, an attacker can grab it and then what? The man in the wheelchair cannot move his wheelchair since he has both hands on the folding chair. Thus he can easily be turned around, or the chair twisted out of his hands if he puts one hand on his wheels.
> 
> From that position, if the attacker has a machete, he can hack into the wheelchair person from various angles (including the legs), all with the wheel chair person unable to defend himself. Grabbing a folding chair is probably one of the most useless things he could do. He already misses the use of his legs, and now he lost the use of his arms as well.
> 
> In my unqualified opinion, the best thing to do is for him to keep his hands free so that he can at least do something, and perhaps use a knife of his own. I could be wrong but so can you. You won't know until you've strapped yourself in a wheelchair, strapped your legs so that you can't move them an inch or use them to brace yourself. And if you do that, I am willing to bet that the folding chair is not going to do you any good and that you are going to want either the use of your hands, or a small single handed weapon.
> 
> This folding chair idea is nothing more than an idea that has never been tested -for real- and it is dangerous to teach to others if you have no clue about the effectiveness for that situation.


 
It is an idea. I have not even ran it passed anyone to try and do it yet. I don't see how it could be usless to pick it up. I would much rather let the blade hit the chair then my body. For the matter of grabbing the chair, the same question could be asked about an arm. Thats the point in giving it technique so it is harder to pull away. If you just swing a chair at someone wild its gonna do less damage then having a plan with it. Control of the wheel chair is needed. I don't think of a chair in the same light as everyone else though or any other random object for that matter. I will try to get my hands on a wheelchair to make something effective and worth while as soon as can.


----------



## Xue Sheng

The Destroyer Style said:


> This stuff is awsome. I think alot of it could easily be done from sitting position. Is this a military combat style?


 
The main guy for Systema (as far as I know)

History


----------



## The Destroyer Style

Xue Sheng said:


> The main guy for Systema (as far as I know)
> 
> History


 

That was awsome. I love learning the history about stuff like this to. When you hear about things like them being out numbered it gives you a since of the hope and faith that they had. Thanks very much.


----------



## Chris Parker

Hi Cody,

Well, I had a look at your seated techniques as you asked, and you were after feedback, so here you are:

Honestly, there are a couple of decent movements, but there are still a few issues to get over. For one thing, you are using a fair amount of arm strength, so if these are to be used for the smaller/weaker individuals, it needs work. I am also not convinced of the applicability of a number of these techniques, as they don't appear to be tested at all. Your attacker (partner) is still missing you, has no guard, is pulling away, is providing no follow-up action, and such is providing an unrealistic image of effectiveness for you and your techniques.

There are also a few techniques in there which seem to be just completely pointless (to be blunt). The one where you sweep his arm around, and end holding the back of his head comes immediately to mind. There is no control there at all, and he is not being held by anything other than his belief that he is meant to be held.

You also rely fairly exclusively on elbows. Now, as you are pulling the attackers limb into the elbow strike, that's actually not a bad concept (but you really need to have that pressure tested, the way you're showing it here probably wouldn't work, as you are not taking into account the continuing action of the opponent). However, in a number of cases you are needing to over-reach for the elbow, and in others it is hitting poorly chosen targets, and with limited force.

Really, the big question we have had is why do you feel you are in a position to create a new system, and we haven't heard an answer to that yet. There still isn't anything here that warrants being called a new system (in fact, this comes across as a range of techniques that you are happy with, and you like, but is not a true system in that it has no common base to work off), and you have openly admitted that your own experience is lacking. You have said that you are looking into other schools, that is great. As said, you will probably find that most of what you are coming up with already exists in a number of established systems, and more experience will assist you in knowing what is real, and what isn't.

But to add to your history lesson, Krav Maga is an Israeli military system, originally based on Shotokan karate, but modified to suit the needs of the Israeli armed forces. Systema has presented a number of different histories over the last few decades, originally it was said that it was a modern re-creation taking as it's source various Russian and Slavic traditions, and later it began to talk about a history reaching back centuries. 

So again, while I appreciate where you are coming from, the best thing is to join a school. You do appear to have a good natural feel for things, so you'll probably do well, but you still need an instructor to help guide you through things and correct when you are off-track. But if you are going to continue with the videos, do some slow motion, it'll be easier for people to see exactly what you are doing (like when you were "pushing the attackers head back" and I thought you were hitting his ears or jaw).


----------



## The Destroyer Style

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Cody,
> 
> Well, I had a look at your seated techniques as you asked, and you were after feedback, so here you are:
> 
> Honestly, there are a couple of decent movements, but there are still a few issues to get over. For one thing, you are using a fair amount of arm strength, so if these are to be used for the smaller/weaker individuals, it needs work. I am also not convinced of the applicability of a number of these techniques, as they don't appear to be tested at all. Your attacker (partner) is still missing you, has no guard, is pulling away, is providing no follow-up action, and such is providing an unrealistic image of effectiveness for you and your techniques.
> 
> There are also a few techniques in there which seem to be just completely pointless (to be blunt). The one where you sweep his arm around, and end holding the back of his head comes immediately to mind. There is no control there at all, and he is not being held by anything other than his belief that he is meant to be held.
> 
> You also rely fairly exclusively on elbows. Now, as you are pulling the attackers limb into the elbow strike, that's actually not a bad concept (but you really need to have that pressure tested, the way you're showing it here probably wouldn't work, as you are not taking into account the continuing action of the opponent). However, in a number of cases you are needing to over-reach for the elbow, and in others it is hitting poorly chosen targets, and with limited force.
> 
> Really, the big question we have had is why do you feel you are in a position to create a new system, and we haven't heard an answer to that yet. There still isn't anything here that warrants being called a new system (in fact, this comes across as a range of techniques that you are happy with, and you like, but is not a true system in that it has no common base to work off), and you have openly admitted that your own experience is lacking. You have said that you are looking into other schools, that is great. As said, you will probably find that most of what you are coming up with already exists in a number of established systems, and more experience will assist you in knowing what is real, and what isn't.
> 
> But to add to your history lesson, Krav Maga is an Israeli military system, originally based on Shotokan karate, but modified to suit the needs of the Israeli armed forces. Systema has presented a number of different histories over the last few decades, originally it was said that it was a modern re-creation taking as it's source various Russian and Slavic traditions, and later it began to talk about a history reaching back centuries.
> 
> So again, while I appreciate where you are coming from, the best thing is to join a school. You do appear to have a good natural feel for things, so you'll probably do well, but you still need an instructor to help guide you through things and correct when you are off-track. But if you are going to continue with the videos, do some slow motion, it'll be easier for people to see exactly what you are doing (like when you were "pushing the attackers head back" and I thought you were hitting his ears or jaw).


 


Wich of those fighting styles do you think would adapt the best for someone who has a lack of strength? I think they both seem pretty awsome. I did this video mainly for the elbow strikes, I know alot of time to I felt like he should swing twice and he was worried about hitting me. I was also wandering how does a military system work? How do you become certified in something like that? When a civilian learns it do they give them belts? Sorry I know thats alot of questions, but I figured I wanted to find out as much as I could about it. I will put slow motion on the next things I do. I was just pressed for time with the last one. I don't know why, but slow motion takes a while to upload.



Thanks Cody


----------



## Omar B

You do know that being an uncertified teacher without proper certificates or insurance you are just asking to get sued to holy hell right?  After all, it's not a matter or if, but when it'll happen and since you are talking about teaching the disabled without any studies in anything dealing with that it's gonna look really bad.  Especially with an 8 page thread of people telling you that you should go get trained.  Things like this thread are easy to find and your unwillingness to listen to more experienced martial artists is putting your "students" in real danger.


----------



## MBuzzy

First of all, to answer your military "style" questions...

In terms of military styles, for the US military, you have Army Combatives and MCMAP.  MCMAP, does have "belts" which show your progression, but is pretty limited to the Marines.  It is tough to find a class that is teaching the true MCMAP style outside of the corps.  Army Combatives is just a loose combination of good techniques, particularly those that work well in full gear.  You can find a very solid overview of both styles in the respective services Field Manuals and published guidances.

As for the foreign military styles, Krav Maga for example, you can certainly learn a version of it at a local Krav Maga school, but as much as they like to tout themselves as being the authentic version, there is simply no comparison to getting the real israeli training.  The Israeli army has basically been at war for its entire existence and they train seriously.  You will learn some of the techniques from a local school, but the belts, ranks, uniforms, etc, depend on the organization and it's "marketability."  Traditionally, Krav Maga has no uniform or rank.  I don't know much about Systema.


A few more thoughts...First off, I think that you would get a great deal of benefit from finding a trained martial artist to be your training partner.  No offense to your friend, but it doesn't appear that he has any training whatsoever.  You need someone who knows how to attack, how to resist, and how to adjust YOUR techniques.  Also, a higher ranked martial artist has a wider range of techniques and will have a better idea of the kinds of things that a true attacker may react with.

Second, have you considered enlisting some help?  It seems to me that you have made up your mind about starting this style - despite the advice of basically everyone here.  Don't get me wrong, you have very noble intentions and your heart is in the right place, you just need more experience and training before undergoing such an endeavor.  So, if you must go forward with this, find a true martial arts instructor, possibly even one in a wheelchair to help.  Or, how about a few disables people who do have some formal training.  At this point, you are speculating on what you think is possible, completely ignoring the vast range of mobility and capabilities of the "handicapped."  Depending on the type of handicap, it could be anything.  The problem is...putting together a formal system requires some level of predictability and formality, not "Well, I'll figure something out once I know what they can and can't do."


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## The Destroyer Style

Omar B said:


> You do know that being an uncertified teacher without proper certificates or insurance you are just asking to get sued to holy hell right? After all, it's not a matter or if, but when it'll happen and since you are talking about teaching the disabled without any studies in anything dealing with that it's gonna look really bad. Especially with an 8 page thread of people telling you that you should go get trained. Things like this thread are easy to find and your unwillingness to listen to more experienced martial artists is putting your "students" in real danger.


 
Wow you must not have read everything I have said. (I am trying to find a school to teach me). If wasn't listening I wouldn't be speaking to them now to find something that will help. I appreciate your concern, but wish you would read what is said before you comment. I don't have students, I just give advice when someone asks me. I don't put on an act for them either. I tell them I don't know all the answers, only what has worked for me.


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## The Destroyer Style

MBuzzy said:


> First of all, to answer your military "style" questions...
> 
> In terms of military styles, for the US military, you have Army Combatives and MCMAP. MCMAP, does have "belts" which show your progression, but is pretty limited to the Marines. It is tough to find a class that is teaching the true MCMAP style outside of the corps. Army Combatives is just a loose combination of good techniques, particularly those that work well in full gear. You can find a very solid overview of both styles in the respective services Field Manuals and published guidances.
> 
> As for the foreign military styles, Krav Maga for example, you can certainly learn a version of it at a local Krav Maga school, but as much as they like to tout themselves as being the authentic version, there is simply no comparison to getting the real israeli training. The Israeli army has basically been at war for its entire existence and they train seriously. You will learn some of the techniques from a local school, but the belts, ranks, uniforms, etc, depend on the organization and it's "marketability." Traditionally, Krav Maga has no uniform or rank. I don't know much about Systema.
> 
> 
> A few more thoughts...First off, I think that you would get a great deal of benefit from finding a trained martial artist to be your training partner. No offense to your friend, but it doesn't appear that he has any training whatsoever. You need someone who knows how to attack, how to resist, and how to adjust YOUR techniques. Also, a higher ranked martial artist has a wider range of techniques and will have a better idea of the kinds of things that a true attacker may react with.
> 
> Second, have you considered enlisting some help? It seems to me that you have made up your mind about starting this style - despite the advice of basically everyone here. Don't get me wrong, you have very noble intentions and your heart is in the right place, you just need more experience and training before undergoing such an endeavor. So, if you must go forward with this, find a true martial arts instructor, possibly even one in a wheelchair to help. Or, how about a few disables people who do have some formal training. At this point, you are speculating on what you think is possible, completely ignoring the vast range of mobility and capabilities of the "handicapped." Depending on the type of handicap, it could be anything. The problem is...putting together a formal system requires some level of predictability and formality, not "Well, I'll figure something out once I know what they can and can't do."


 

Thank you for the information. I am sorry you thought I was still trying to start my own style. I thought I had said I wanted to wait until I had more expierience. I am deffinately going to start one of my own, after I have more knowledge. I do thin it is possible to make something that will work for everyone, but I think you have to personalize it for them. I don't want a formal system. I want something that each person can use in their own way. If you had a student that did not have the use of an arm. You would have to show him how to block and strike with it at the same time. When you have both arms you can block with one arm while attacking with the other. That gives him different ways of attacking that a one armed man would not. Grappling with one arm would kind of be a danger zone if a second swing was coming and you didn't have another arm to block with.

It is reasons like this that I feel a one on one base is needed for teaching. I know sometimes that almost impossible with large classes, but I feel the person learning would gain more that way. That is something I would also like to do. It may take hours of work, but in order to really help someone I think it would go a long way to work with them myself instead of having a huge class. Maybe four to six people at one session.  I'm sure alot of people already teach this way. I don't think it will make you rich or famous, but something modest would help people more then a huge thirthy person class at once.

I do think if you have people you trust to help train that it helps alot, but is not the same. If I can't make a personal connection with someone I don't think I will understand what they need to take from something I could teach them. Some people need physical protection, some confedence, some just want to be stronger. I think its important to know
what they really need.

Thank you again for your information
Cody


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## jks9199

The Destroyer Style said:


> Wow you must not have read everything I have said. (I am trying to find a school to teach me). If wasn't listening I wouldn't be speaking to them now to find something that will help. I appreciate your concern, but wish you would read what is said before you comment. I don't have students, I just give advice when someone asks me. I don't put on an act for them either. I tell them I don't know all the answers, only what has worked for me.


How do they know to ask you?  What makes them come to you?

I feel like I'm really beating a dead horse down here...  You clearly are fit.  Your heart is in the right place.  Your goal is very laudable.

But right now, you're in the position of a guy who's watched *ER*, *Grey's Anatomy*, and *House* trying to practice medicine.  Or a guy who played Pop Warner football trying to match up against an NFL player...  You lack the background, and the underlying structure to know what you're doing.

It's not glamorous or glorious... but you can spend some time working within a formal style's framework, and doing the research into the physiology and kinesiology as well as the threats involved, and develop something of your own down the road.  Even Bruce Lee started with formal training -- and, even after moving onto his formless jeet kun do, continued to seek training and information from skilled coaches and instructors in many styles.


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## Tez3

Omar B said:


> Slayer -
> Raining Blood http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR4ELGedtZU&feature=related
> War Ensamble http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpMuCrbxE8A&feature=related
> Angel Of Death http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0AGUywHntw&feature=related
> South Of Heaven http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwLtTa2trRs&feature=related


 
Oh the new fanglesd stuff lol. I'm more into the old style! Def Leppard, Guns and Roses etc etc. shows my age lol!


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## Omar B

Tez3 said:


> Oh the new fanglesd stuff lol. I'm more into the old style! Def Leppard, Guns and Roses etc etc. shows my age lol!



Slayer's about the same age as Def Leppard, and without a doubt older than GNR.


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## Omar B

The Destroyer Style said:


> Wow you must not have read everything I have said. (I am trying to find a school to teach me). If wasn't listening I wouldn't be speaking to them now to find something that will help. I appreciate your concern, but wish you would read what is said before you comment. I don't have students, I just give advice when someone asks me. I don't put on an act for them either. I tell them I don't know all the answers, only what has worked for me.



Giving advice falls under the umbrella of giving instruction, you even put up videos online.  So as far as most people, including the law, you are teaching.  I didnt miss the point, you did.


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## The Destroyer Style

Omar B said:


> Giving advice falls under the umbrella of giving instruction, you even put up videos online. So as far as most people, including the law, you are teaching. I didnt miss the point, you did.


 

I clearly put on the vidoes not to use and it was my way of fighting. Which means meant for me. I put the last one up for here. So yeah you did miss the point. My videos are not called instructionals. If anything they are up for an opinion from others who know more then me. If you read the side that (says more info) it says pros out there that would like to add to this please do.


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## The Destroyer Style

jks9199 said:


> How do they know to ask you? What makes them come to you?
> 
> I feel like I'm really beating a dead horse down here... You clearly are fit. Your heart is in the right place. Your goal is very laudable.
> 
> But right now, you're in the position of a guy who's watched *ER*, *Grey's Anatomy*, and *House* trying to practice medicine. Or a guy who played Pop Warner football trying to match up against an NFL player... You lack the background, and the underlying structure to know what you're doing.
> 
> It's not glamorous or glorious... but you can spend some time working within a formal style's framework, and doing the research into the physiology and kinesiology as well as the threats involved, and develop something of your own down the road. Even Bruce Lee started with formal training -- and, even after moving onto his formless jeet kun do, continued to seek training and information from skilled coaches and instructors in many styles.


 
I guess they know the same way anyones friends or family would know. Its not really a secret that you train when you do. Alot of my friends like to talk about fighting so I talk to them. I have agreed that I don't have the experience to develope a style yet. I also said I was looking for a school. If your beating the horse now its just because you want to, not because it didn't get the point. What more can I do then agree?


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## Omar B

The Destroyer Style said:


> I clearly put on the vidoes not to use and it was my way of fighting. Which means meant for me. I put the last one up for here. So yeah you did miss the point. My videos are not called instructionals. If anything they are up for an opinion from others who know more then me. If you read the side that (says more info) it says pros out there that would like to add to this please do.



If you say so, though I'm not the one with no marital arts experience, physical education experience, working with the disabled experience but started a thread about doing just that.  You've changed your tune now which is good, now you are talking about a personal style which is a different issue.  Just try not to get huffy when people point out the obvious hubris of your claims based nothing.


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## jks9199

The Destroyer Style said:


> I guess they know the same way anyones friends or family would know. Its not really a secret that you train when you do. Alot of my friends like to talk about fighting so I talk to them. I have agreed that I don't have the experience to develope a style yet. I also said I was looking for a school. If your beating the horse now its just because you want to, not because it didn't get the point. What more can I do then agree?


Stop teaching people and stop "showing them stuff" until you've got the qualifications.

One of the first things a beginning student in my school learns is that they are not to demonstrate what's taught or to teach it without permission.  

You haven't really answered some of the important questions I've asked.  You say you want to teach people self defense, and that you show them "when they ask you."  Have you done any research into the types of attacks that are committed on people who are handicapped?  When they happen?  Who the assailants tend to be?

Do you know the legal issues of self defense?  What an affirmative defense is?  The difference between a civil suit and criminal charges?

These are some of the things you need to learn about to reach your goal, along with learning the physical skills and how to teach them.  (Do you know how to teach an adult learner?  Is it the same as teaching a kid?)


----------



## Bruno@MT

Tez3 said:


> Oh the new fanglesd stuff lol. I'm more into the old style! Def Leppard, Guns and Roses etc etc. shows my age lol!



Manowar for me.

Oh about age: how would you feel if your favorite radio station is named radio nostalgia?


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## Omar B

Gotta love that Manowar!


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## The Destroyer Style

They are one of the orignial four horse men in thrash metal not heavy metal. The four are Slayer, Megadeth, (wich are my personal favorite) Metallica, Anthrax.


----------



## The Destroyer Style

jks9199 said:


> Stop teaching people and stop "showing them stuff" until you've got the qualifications.
> 
> One of the first things a beginning student in my school learns is that they are not to demonstrate what's taught or to teach it without permission.
> 
> You haven't really answered some of the important questions I've asked. You say you want to teach people self defense, and that you show them "when they ask you." Have you done any research into the types of attacks that are committed on people who are handicapped? When they happen? Who the assailants tend to be?
> 
> Do you know the legal issues of self defense? What an affirmative defense is? The difference between a civil suit and criminal charges?
> 
> These are some of the things you need to learn about to reach your goal, along with learning the physical skills and how to teach them. (Do you know how to teach an adult learner? Is it the same as teaching a kid?)


 

Sorry, but if someone asks for help I will help them to the best of my knowledge. I will tell them it is limited. If you want more then that you really are wasting time. You can tell someone not to teach it, but you really don't know if they listen unless you follow them around. I can send you links with the legal definition of selfdefence all its limitations, even what I have looked up for handicap people. It doesn't make me an expert, but it does mean I'm not blind to it. It would depend on the person as to how you would teach them. If someone has a mental handicap it would be much different from someone who does not. It doesn't matter how old the person is, it depends on their own understanding as to what they can learn.


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## shesulsa

The Destroyer Style said:


> Sorry, but if someone asks for help I will help them to the best of my knowledge. I will tell them it is limited. If you want more then that you really are wasting time. You can tell someone not to teach it, but you really don't know if they listen unless you follow them around. I can send you links with the legal definition of selfdefence all its limitations, even what I have looked up for handicap people. It doesn't make me an expert, but it does mean I'm not blind to it. It would depend on the person as to how you would teach them. If someone has a mental handicap it would be much different from someone who does not. It doesn't matter how old the person is, it depends on their own understanding as to what they can learn.



So you can copy moves. Good for you.  Do you have an underlying theme to your style? If so what would that be?  What is the approach, per se?

I think anyone can take a list of moves and show someone else how they do them - it doesn't mean it's right.


----------



## Omar B

SheSulsa, I know what you are saying.  I liken it to some combatives where it's cobbled together from other styles.  The kicks don't match the stance they are coming from so it's wildly unbalanced.  The power delivery system for the hands does not match the stance or the movement leading to weak punches.  I could go on.

I've seen so many times people try to marry wrestling styled stances or boxing styled stances with MT or karate styled kicks and it's fine for a ring, but lands you on your butt if you are not in "perfect conditions" like a ring.  Unified whole's people!


----------



## The Destroyer Style

shesulsa said:


> So you can copy moves. Good for you. Do you have an underlying theme to your style? If so what would that be? What is the approach, per se?
> 
> I think anyone can take a list of moves and show someone else how they do them - it doesn't mean it's right.


 


Yes I can, but so can anyone. Help others and yourslef have a better life and be stronger. I think there is a different approach for every situation and person. Sure they can. No it doesn't make it right, I never said it did. I do think if the technique fits the situation they are facing or may face later. It doesn't hurt to show them.


----------



## The Destroyer Style

Omar B said:


> SheSulsa, I know what you are saying. I liken it to some combatives where it's cobbled together from other styles. The kicks don't match the stance they are coming from so it's wildly unbalanced. The power delivery system for the hands does not match the stance or the movement leading to weak punches. I could go on.
> 
> I've seen so many times people try to marry wrestling styled stances or boxing styled stances with MT or karate styled kicks and it's fine for a ring, but lands you on your butt if you are not in "perfect conditions" like a ring. Unified whole's people!


 

I wil say if a 200 pd. pro boxer connects with your face you are going to be in pain. They aren't slow either, so you can't say they won't connect. I will also say that if a person has fought in a ring they have much more chance of surviving on the street then someone who doesn't train at all.


----------



## shesulsa

The Destroyer Style said:


> It doesn't hurt to show them.



Ah, but see ... it can.  If you know enough about body types, individual strength and how that particular "move" works and doesn't work, then you can discern that this technique might just be not right for that individual whatsoever.  That is something that requires time, exposure, some trial and error.  So you, someone who is *not* a teacher, is sharing moves with someone that may or may not work for them and you really have no idea if it will or not.  And if it fails them miserably ... who's to blame?

I guess if you're comfortable taking that on, so be it, I suppose.  But there are a lot of people out there who have WAY more experience than you being called frauds - rather blatantly and relentlessly so, I might add - even on this very site.

I realize I can't stop you.  And I hope you stop before you get yourself or someone else in some serious physical trouble.


----------



## Omar B

The Destroyer Style said:


> I wil say if a 200 pd. pro boxer connects with your face you are going to be in pain. They aren't slow either, so you can't say they won't connect. I will also say that if a person has fought in a ring they have much more chance of surviving on the street then someone who doesn't train at all.



Totally missed the mark on the point I was making.  I was talking about disparate methods being cobbled together to make a "new" style.  Kinda hard to follow?

Oh, and there's a difference between "then" and "than," you should have used "than."


----------



## The Destroyer Style

Omar B said:


> Totally missed the mark on the point I was making. I was talking about disparate methods being cobbled together to make a "new" style. Kinda hard to follow?
> 
> Oh, and there's a difference between "then" and "than," you should have used "than."


 

You were talking about a ring. Everyone I know that fights in a ring learns boxing. Thats was my point if something works in a ring it will work against someone who doesn't have training.


----------



## shesulsa

The Destroyer Style said:


> if something works in a ring it will work against someone who doesn't have training.



A common misconception.


----------



## The Destroyer Style

shesulsa said:


> Ah, but see ... it can. If you know enough about body types, individual strength and how that particular "move" works and doesn't work, then you can discern that this technique might just be not right for that individual whatsoever. That is something that requires time, exposure, some trial and error. So you, someone who is *not* a teacher, is sharing moves with someone that may or may not work for them and you really have no idea if it will or not. And if it fails them miserably ... who's to blame?
> 
> I guess if you're comfortable taking that on, so be it, I suppose. But there are a lot of people out there who have WAY more experience than you being called frauds - rather blatantly and relentlessly so, I might add - even on this very site.
> 
> I realize I can't stop you. And I hope you stop before you get yourself or someone else in some serious physical trouble.


 

I did say if the technique fits the situation. Its not like I would tell a someone someting without knowing about the situation first. There is know way of knowing what will work until you are in the situation. If someone pulls a knife on me, its highly doubtful I will box them to the ground. Well atleast not before being seriously injured or die in the process. 
Why would I stop trying to learn and make something different? Everything starts out with something else as its base. Fighting styles evolve. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying I have changed anything. I even said it was just a mixture of techniques I found useful, I want to learn all I can. I just want to take what is useful for someone in a certain position and give it to them. For instance, kicking wouldn't help someone who is in a wheel chair. Knowing how the kick is done would, so they can defend against it. I think a couple people have said elbowing would be limited. Thats why I want to do this to make things less limited for people.


----------



## The Destroyer Style

shesulsa said:


> A common misconception.


 

How so?


----------



## Omar B

The Destroyer Style said:


> You were talking about a ring. Everyone I know that fights in a ring learns boxing. Thats was my point if something works in a ring it will work against someone who doesn't have training.



So you don't understand irony then?  I was talking about combatives an mentioned a ring in relation to cobble together tech.  You are beyond help, if grammar and irony escape you.


----------



## MJS

The Destroyer Style said:


> Sorry, but if someone asks for help I will help them to the best of my knowledge. I will tell them it is limited. If you want more then that you really are wasting time. You can tell someone not to teach it, but you really don't know if they listen unless you follow them around. I can send you links with the legal definition of selfdefence all its limitations, even what I have looked up for handicap people. It doesn't make me an expert, but it does mean I'm not blind to it. It would depend on the person as to how you would teach them. If someone has a mental handicap it would be much different from someone who does not. It doesn't matter how old the person is, it depends on their own understanding as to what they can learn.


 
You may have mentioned it, but how much training do you have again?  IMHO, what you're doing, is equivilant to a white or yellow belt teaching someone.  Again, while your heart may be in the right place, if you yourself dont have a solid understanding of things, how is the person you're teaching going to?  In all of the schools I've been a part of, nobody even thinks about teaching, until you're at least brown, maybe green.


----------



## MJS

The Destroyer Style said:


> I guess they know the same way anyones friends or family would know. Its not really a secret that you train when you do. Alot of my friends like to talk about fighting so I talk to them. I have agreed that I don't have the experience to develope a style yet. I also said I was looking for a school. If your beating the horse now its just because you want to, not because it didn't get the point. What more can I do then agree?


 
I'm sorry, but what you're missing is, is the fact that you are billing yourself as a teacher.  IMO, someone who calls themselves a teacher, usually has much more experience than those they're teaching.


----------



## MJS

The Destroyer Style said:


> Yes I can, but so can anyone. Help others and yourslef have a better life and be stronger. I think there is a different approach for every situation and person. Sure they can. No it doesn't make it right, I never said it did. I do think if the technique fits the situation they are facing or may face later. It doesn't hurt to show them.


 
It doesn't hurt to show them?  Umm..yes it does, especially, as I said before, if you're not showing them correctly.


----------



## MJS

The Destroyer Style said:


> You were talking about a ring. Everyone I know that fights in a ring learns boxing. Thats was my point if something works in a ring it will work against someone who doesn't have training.


 


The Destroyer Style said:


> How so?


 
You dont know?  I'm sorry, but this sounds like a comment that I hear from BJJ nutriders.  Those people usually take a list of things that they see their heros do.  Heros being defined as the pro mma fighters that they worship.  Sorry, just because something works for one, does not mean its going to work for another.

I've had people talk about high percentage moves.  High percentage for who?  Whats high percentage for person A, will be different from b, c and d.  But these people are not seeing it, and sadly, neither are you.  I'm sorry, but a good portion of the stuff that you see 'in the ring' will probably get you seriously hurt if you tried that outside of the ring.  And if you can't figure that out, I dont know what else to tell you.


----------



## The Destroyer Style

Omar B said:


> So you don't understand irony then? I was talking about combatives an mentioned a ring in relation to cobble together tech. You are beyond help, if grammar and irony escape you.


 

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that someone who learns MMA would not be a good match for someone on the street? You think mixtures poor and somewhat inefective? It really depends on the person who learns it don't you think?  Because I have a hard time with grammar doesn't mean I am beyond help. Putting down people for training even if it isn't the best way to you. Means that you are narrow minded and not much of a human being to mock them like that. 
I will also say, that if you have not trained in the fighting styles they have and climb into the ring with them you are just out of luck. Don't get me wrong I know they aren't the best, but they are some of the most strong willed people in the world. You would litterally have to kill them before they would stop. Which I really don't think you would be able to. They aren't the joke that you make them out to be. Each one has their own style and individuality.
They train everyday non stop for physical and mental disapline. You can hit them as hard as you want they will still keep coming. They enjoy fighting somone at a higher level then themselves. They might not be the deadliest fighters in the world, but they still deserve respect.


----------



## Omar B

Fighting and self defense are not the same thing.  Much like driving formula one and driving to work are not the same thing.  And yes, styles pasted together like a Frankenstein monster tend to not have a unifying principle and it shows in parts that don't fit together.

Putting down grammar is just funny to me.  A person claiming to be able to put together his own style should be able to express ideas clearly, and certainly one who intends to teach should.  I count 4 separate ideas fighting for space in the first paragraph alone.  Teaching, as you presented yourself as doing, then what you say you intend to do is effective communication, grammar is a large part of that.


----------



## The Destroyer Style

MJS said:


> You dont know? I'm sorry, but this sounds like a comment that I hear from BJJ nutriders. Those people usually take a list of things that they see their heros do. Heros being defined as the pro mma fighters that they worship. Sorry, just because something works for one, does not mean its going to work for another.
> 
> I've had people talk about high percentage moves. High percentage for who? Whats high percentage for person A, will be different from b, c and d. But these people are not seeing it, and sadly, neither are you. I'm sorry, but a good portion of the stuff that you see 'in the ring' will probably get you seriously hurt if you tried that outside of the ring. And if you can't figure that out, I dont know what else to tell you.


 

Actually I think BJJ is pointless if you are surrounded. I know I'm not going to take someone to the ground and grapple in that situation. I don't think MMA makes a very deadly kind of fighter. My point is someone trained is better then someone not. If they take a set list because of someone else they are still real fighters. They just aren't going to learn more then anyone else. You put us in a catagory as I told Omar that is narrow minded. No not everything works the same for everyone I agree. In Boxing the heaviest man hits harder. That is why alot take different styles.

 It might not be the most effective technique, but training in it takes away a huge fear of getting hit. It also teaches you to keep you face and ribs protected. I don't beleive in a high percentage anything. Either it works at that time or it doesn't. Each situation calls for something different. Trust me I will be the last person to try a flying arm bar in a real fight, or try to take someone to the ground for that matter. Once on the ground you have to finish that fight or figure out how to get away. Its good to know how to do both, but best avoided if anything.

Some of the techniques are universal knee kicks, knees, elbows, punches.  If the fighter were trained well and stuck to his basics he has just as much chance to survive as any fighter. I think he may even be calmer, because he is already use to getting hit. The may not have alot of weapon knowledge, but in an unarmed fight they are going to be harder to stop then someone without training.


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## The Destroyer Style

Omar B said:


> Fighting and self defense are not the same thing. Much like driving formula one and driving to work are not the same thing. And yes, styles pasted together like a Frankenstein monster tend to not have a unifying principle and it shows in parts that don't fit together.
> 
> Putting down grammar is just funny to me. A person claiming to be able to put together his own style should be able to express ideas clearly, and certainly one who intends to teach should. I count 4 separate ideas fighting for space in the first paragraph alone. Teaching, as you presented yourself as doing, then what you say you intend to do is effective communication, grammar is a large part of that.


 


Well if your not a good fighter your aren't going to defend yourself very well. Driving both still gives you expeireience behind the wheel. Frankeinsteins Monster was brute who could have ripped a normal person in half. Its all in how you use what you learn that counts. Its funny to you because you don't struggle with it. However I see you struggle in making  effective comparisons so I will let it go.


----------



## Omar B

You think so?  The point's been made by myself and many others, you just fail to see it.  But then, you have yet to learn a martial art.  An opinion hasn't much to stand upon.


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## Chris Parker

(This could be a long one...)

*(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) Wich of those fighting styles do you think would adapt the best for someone who has a lack of strength? I think they both seem pretty awsome. I did this video mainly for the elbow strikes, I know alot of time to I felt like he should swing twice and he was worried about hitting me. I was also wandering how does a military system work? How do you become certified in something like that? When a civilian learns it do they give them belts? Sorry I know thats alot of questions, but I figured I wanted to find out as much as I could about it. I will put slow motion on the next things I do. I was just pressed for time with the last one. I don't know why, but slow motion takes a while to upload.*

Which would be the best for someone who has a lack of strength? Really, you're looking at the wrong thing. You are fixated on the idea that there is one system that will provide you with all the answers, while remaining completely unaware of the fact that most arts do actualy provide you with the skills for a smaller, weaker person to survive an assault, and even come out on top. Strength is an issue in sports, and size in bodybuilding. Oh, and frankly, to someone with very little experience, most things we could direct you to would seem "awesome" to you, but you would probably still miss most of what you were seeing.

You did it for the elbow strikes? Why? For the set-up you had, an elbow is a poor choice of a weapon to use. It's too short, and relies on very good body dynamics, which are hampered when seated in a chair. They can work, but these were not good examples. And as for your training partner, yeah I can see he was concerned about hitting you... but he was more worried about you hitting him! If you can't see that, don't teach/show/make videos!

As for the military systems, why do you want to know? Are you going to join one of these schools, or the army? If so, find a school and ask. If not, it is irrelevant. Oh, and I'm not talking about slowing down the film, I'm talking about you slowing down your actions and demonstrations so it can be seen clearer. It will also take a level of control you have not yet shown, as it takes away from your ego-based "look at how fast I am!" way of demonstrating. Again, if you don't know how to demonstrate properly, stop teaching/showing/making videos!

*(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) It is reasons like this that I feel a one on one base is needed for teaching. I know sometimes that almost impossible with large classes, but I feel the person learning would gain more that way. That is something I would also like to do. It may take hours of work, but in order to really help someone I think it would go a long way to work with them myself instead of having a huge class. Maybe four to six people at one session. I'm sure alot of people already teach this way. I don't think it will make you rich or famous, but something modest would help people more then a huge thirthy person class at once.

I do think if you have people you trust to help train that it helps alot, but is not the same. If I can't make a personal connection with someone I don't think I will understand what they need to take from something I could teach them. Some people need physical protection, some confedence, some just want to be stronger. I think its important to know
what they really need.*

Based on.....? Really, this all reads like a typical sports fan who, although not having anything to do with the sport, team, or anything other than being an outside observer, deciding that they know how the team should train and play. There are benefits to both group and small teaching styles, but it doesn't seem like you have an understanding of either.

Oh, and you bringing up being rich and famous is interesting... as I have said, this all comes across to me as an exercise in ego. You have (very!) limited experience in any martial arts at all, have "padded" your resume, claim over 12 years when you have less than two actual education, and that is split over two systems, post videos of you hitting someone to demonstrate your "skills" on youtube, and talk about what is missing in martial arts (when it isn't, you just don't have the education on the subject), and how you're approach is much better. You then talk about what your system is designed for (for smaller, weaker, and handicapped people), while nothing you have shown fits your description whatsoever. 

All of this adds up to someone basically stroking your own ego. The claims of why you are doing all this ("if that knowledge doesn't go to help others. You haven't did anything worth speaking of (sic)".) come across as a way to get people to listen to you. You may believe (consciously) that you are actually doing that, but none of your actions match. Instead, it is all about your ego, and the way you want to be seen. If you were really interested in helping people in this way, check your ego, drop the idea of developing your own style at all (now or in the future), go to a school, and learn. When you have some real experience under your belt, you may realise that you have absolutely on need to develop a new system, as the one you study may (and probably will) give you more than you need to help people in the way you are talking about.

To then bring up the idea of becoming "famous or rich", even saying that it probably won't happen that way, cinches it. This idea of being known for your style is on your mind, and this is all an exercise in ego. Sorry, but this is nothing to do with helping people, so either you will take this advice, or you will attack back at this percieved slight. If the former, then you may have been shocked into waking up and growing up a bit, if the latter, well, that will just prove my point really.

*(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) I clearly put on the vidoes not to use and it was my way of fighting. Which means meant for me. I put the last one up for here. So yeah you did miss the point. My videos are not called instructionals. If anything they are up for an opinion from others who know more then me. If you read the side that (says more info) it says pros out there that would like to add to this please do.*  

So you put videos up with the following disclaimer/blurb at the beginning of one of them (only): This is my own fighting private style, The Destroyer Style. It is a mixture of all fighting styles I know. I have used only techniques that work. All of my techniques could permanently injure an opponent so please do not practice them unless you do them slow and cautiously. Never fight unless it is a life or death situation. Every life is valuable and should be protected....

As I have already said, this little blurb here seems to serve only to give the impresson that you actually know what you are talking about. And as I have already said, the clips themselves show you don't. But really, the only reason to put them up is for people to see them. And if you are wanting people to see them, you want them to learn from them (this isn't entertainment here, it's presented in the guise of educational material). So your claims here of "it's just for me, it's not instructional, it's so others who know better can give me ideas" is either lying (possibly to yourself as well), or just plain ignorant of the nature of what you are doing (both in regards to martial arts and posting videos online).

Oh, and pro's aren't going to make comments. You will only get them from people just as inexperienced or worse. But I have made some comments about your clips here (albeit nowhere near as detailed as I could be), and that doesn't seem to have been taken on board. You don't want to be seen as an instructor? Stop teaching/showing/making videos!

Oh, and for the love of all that is good and holy, Choson Ninja as a friend there? Really? That does not help your credibility at all, you know, but I'm not going into why with our fraudbusting rules in effect...

*(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) Sorry, but if someone asks for help I will help them to the best of my knowledge. I will tell them it is limited. If you want more then that you really are wasting time. You can tell someone not to teach it, but you really don't know if they listen unless you follow them around. I can send you links with the legal definition of selfdefence all its limitations, even what I have looked up for handicap people. It doesn't make me an expert, but it does mean I'm not blind to it. It would depend on the person as to how you would teach them. If someone has a mental handicap it would be much different from someone who does not. It doesn't matter how old the person is, it depends on their own understanding as to what they can learn.*

If someone asks for help, you can say no. Say you aren't experienced enough, you're really just a beginner yourself. You do not have to show them anything, especially if you are not in a position to be of any real help. You really can do more harm if you try to teach to early than if you don't teach at all. If you don't understand that, then you have no business teaching/showing/making videos.

Oh, and talking to people like JKS about what reading you've done on self defence legal definitions isn't going to help. I would suggest that his understanding is significantly higher. 

Originally Posted by *shesulsa* 

 
_So you can copy moves. Good for you. Do you have an underlying theme to your style? If so what would that be? What is the approach, per se?

I think anyone can take a list of moves and show someone else how they do them - it doesn't mean it's right._



*(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) Yes I can, but so can anyone. Help others and yourslef have a better life and be stronger. I think there is a different approach for every situation and person. Sure they can. No it doesn't make it right, I never said it did. I do think if the technique fits the situation they are facing or may face later. It doesn't hurt to show them. *

(Had to include Shesulsa's original quote there, the answer is a bit multi-directional...) Just copying moves does not a martial artist (or martial art) make. I believe that was Shesulsa's point to begin with. This whole post is saying you think there is a move for every situation, and if you approach martial arts with that idea in mind, then you miss the point entirely.

As for Shesulsa's asking about if you had an underlying theme to your system, you have missed the point on that as well. Your answer "Help others and yourslef have a better life and be stronger" is a personal value, not a philosophical base upon which to establish a martial system. One of the things that makes a particular martial art unique and distinct from others is it's guiding philosophy. That is then expressed through it's movements and actions, which are physical expressions of the strategies and tactics the philosophy requires. You are focussing on the moves, and have none of the basis we have been talking about. This is why you cannot form your own system, even if you want to.

*(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) You were talking about a ring. Everyone I know that fights in a ring learns boxing. Thats was my point if something works in a ring it will work against someone who doesn't have training.* 

*(Originally posted by Shesulsa) A common misconception.* 

*(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) How so? *

Oh boy. You know, I'm just going to say this: sport = sport, self defence = self defence. Lots of things that you do in a ring will not work in a street environment, lots of things that you do for self defence will not  be applicable/work in a competitive environment. Many many threads here on that, no need to rehash old ground. 

*(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) So let me get this straight. Are you saying that someone who learns MMA would not be a good match for someone on the street? *

Okay, I'm going to break this one down, there are too many ideas going on at once here...

Sport systems can help in a number of ways, but they are geared specifically to a very different environment and situation to a street self defence situation. This would be that guiding philosophy I was talking about. The guiding philosophy behind MMA is very simple, it is to attain success in competitive matches through multiranged unarmed combative-themed tests. So it trains accordingly, and that means a focus on one-on-one, no weapons, sport-specific rules, padded ground, and more. Now the skills can certainly be transferable to a great degree, but it is not designed for street defence, and a number of it's tactics are quite dangerous to try in a real fight. Got it? 

*You think mixtures poor and somewhat inefective? It really depends on the person who learns it don't you think? *

Mixtures where you just grab a bit of this and a bit of that are often very ineffective, as they are based not in a philosophy, nor a proven or tested methodology, but in the personal preferences and tastes of a single (often talented, experienced) individual, but being so specialised to them makes it less-than successful when it comes to transfering the skills to others. Without a real, impersonal base, it is often destined to fail after the founder of such a non-art is gone or just moves on to something else.

But bear in mind that what makes it work is not the techniques, it is the fact that the person doing it is experienced, and has found (legitimately) what works and what gels with their personality. Just putting together what makes sense to you is not the same, as a lot of common sense and rational belief goes out the window when it comes down to it.

*Because I have a hard time with grammar doesn't mean I am beyond help. Putting down people for training even if it isn't the best way to you. Means that you are narrow minded and not much of a human being to mock them like that.*

Okay, gotta ask. Why are you putting that full stop in there (the second one here... between "you" and "Means")? Why does your mind split one sentence like that? Because it happens far too often for it to be anything but deliberate, whether conscious or unconscious is the question. This isn't to put you down, I just don't understand how that particular synapse fires so often.

Oh, and I wouldn't go around calling Omar narrow minded and not much of a human being because he is trying to help you (he is, you know. The stuff about training, even if it isn't the best? He, and most of us here, really, are saying that if you train badly, with false ideas, false understanding, no experience, no basis, then it is worse than no training at all. That is helpful, not narrow minded). If you listen to the advice given, and take it, then you may find that years down the track, when you are coming to this from a much more removed perspective, we have really been incredibly gentle. 

* 
I will also say, that if you have not trained in the fighting styles they have and climb into the ring with them you are just out of luck. *

And what happens if they haven't trained in the systems I have? How's their luck then? I have swords, remember, don't know how their muto dori is in the UFC...

*Don't get me wrong I know they aren't the best, but they are some of the most strong willed people in the world. *

I've known plenty of incredibly strong willed people, some of them not even martial artists, let alone MMA competitors! Really, they are athletes, very well trained, very very well conditioned (in most cases...), but athletes. 

*You would litterally have to kill them before they would stop. Which I really don't think you would be able to. They aren't the joke that you make them out to be. Each one has their own style and individuality.*

Not really sure what you are meaning by this... I would have to kill them? Really? Okay, as I said, I have swords... But I think you are a little misguided. They are athletes. That's it. They can be stopped without killing them, you know. And yes, each has their own personal preference in terms of tactics and strategies, based on their personalities, body types, and more, but really, they all have very similar bases to work from, and very similar guiding philosophies, so the personal differences are no more than you would see in any higher-level practitioners in any system. Note the hgher-level part...
 

*They train everyday non stop for physical and mental disapline. *

No they don't. They would collapse, and it would actually be detrimental to their development. They do train intensly, but non-stop everyday is stupid. Rest days are needed, and taken by smart trainers.

*You can hit them as hard as you want they will still keep coming. *

Really. You seem to be idolising MMA stars a bit, attributing to them more than they are. They get knocked out, get tapped out, get beaten all the time. And martial arts aren't about hitting hard...

*They enjoy fighting somone at a higher level then themselves. They might not be the deadliest fighters in the world, but they still deserve respect. *

And they have respect. But I respect them for what they are, not for what you imagine them to be.

*(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) Well if your not a good fighter your aren't going to defend yourself very well. Driving both still gives you expeireience behind the wheel. Frankeinsteins Monster was brute who could have ripped a normal person in half. Its all in how you use what you learn that counts. Its funny to you because you don't struggle with it. However I see you struggle in making effective comparisons so I will let it go. *

Oh boy. Yes, and if you're not a good driver, you're going to end up in a ditch. As to Omar's comments about a racing driver versus driving to work, the way the car works is the same, but the mechanics of driving them is actually very different. If you drive around a track the way you drive to work, you will go far too slowly, and probably get cleaned up. If you drive to work the way you drive around a track, you end up in a tree.

Frankensteins Monster, by the way, was not a brute. That is a major part of the irony of the story; the talented, genius Doctor was internally a monster, and the Creation, outwardly grotesque, a great hulk who inspired fear in all those around him, was gentle and looking for beauty. Therein lies the irony and tragedy of the story of Frankenstein. Just so you know.

But his comparrison was not too bad, really. The Monster was created out of disparate parts, and never fit either with the world around him, or within himself, leaving him ultimately doomed, as he cannot reconcile himself in any way. These mutt-martial arts are similar, in that without a real base to work from, there is no congruence, and the conflicting concepts that make it up will actually lead to a lack of power/skill/ability. Frankenstein's Monster indeed.

Finally, Cody, I'm going to say this bluntly.

Stop posting videos. Stop teaching others. You do not have the requisite experience or understanding. Get a teacher, and join a school. Stop thinking about starting your own system until you have some more experience, as you will most likely find that you just don't need to. And please either get a better understanding of grammer and paragraphing, or at least read your posts back to yourself before posting them to check them out. It'll help you here no end.


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## MJS

The Destroyer Style said:


> So let me get this straight. Are you saying that someone who learns MMA would not be a good match for someone on the street? You think mixtures poor and somewhat inefective? It really depends on the person who learns it don't you think? Because I have a hard time with grammar doesn't mean I am beyond help. Putting down people for training even if it isn't the best way to you. Means that you are narrow minded and not much of a human being to mock them like that.
> I will also say, that if you have not trained in the fighting styles they have and climb into the ring with them you are just out of luck. Don't get me wrong I know they aren't the best, but they are some of the most strong willed people in the world. You would litterally have to kill them before they would stop. Which I really don't think you would be able to. They aren't the joke that you make them out to be. Each one has their own style and individuality.
> They train everyday non stop for physical and mental disapline. You can hit them as hard as you want they will still keep coming. They enjoy fighting somone at a higher level then themselves. They might not be the deadliest fighters in the world, but they still deserve respect.


 


Omar B said:


> Fighting and self defense are not the same thing. Much like driving formula one and driving to work are not the same thing. And yes, styles pasted together like a Frankenstein monster tend to not have a unifying principle and it shows in parts that don't fit together.
> 
> Putting down grammar is just funny to me. A person claiming to be able to put together his own style should be able to express ideas clearly, and certainly one who intends to teach should. I count 4 separate ideas fighting for space in the first paragraph alone. Teaching, as you presented yourself as doing, then what you say you intend to do is effective communication, grammar is a large part of that.


 


The Destroyer Style said:


> Well if your not a good fighter your aren't going to defend yourself very well. Driving both still gives you expeireience behind the wheel. Frankeinsteins Monster was brute who could have ripped a normal person in half. Its all in how you use what you learn that counts. Its funny to you because you don't struggle with it. However I see you struggle in making effective comparisons so I will let it go.


 


Omar B said:


> You think so? The point's been made by myself and many others, you just fail to see it. But then, you have yet to learn a martial art. An opinion hasn't much to stand upon.


 
Well, I have to agree with Omar here.  I will say that I do tip my hat to those that step into the ring, as they are tough.  However, as its been proven already, and I'll use the Fight Quest show as an example, seeing that it is a much better example than the HW show, but here we saw 2 MMA guys, both of whom again, I tip my hat to, because they busted their *** on that show, but we saw them out of the MMA atmosphere, and both admitted on live tv, that the mindset is totally different.  

We saw Jimmy crumble with that elbow he took to the spine in the Kajukenbo episode, when he attempted that double leg shoot.  Doug, in the Krav Maga episode, also commented that it was his instinct, to do what he was doing, yet against the KM guys, he didn't fare that well.

Again, this isn't to discredit them, but simply to show a point, that I, Omar, and a few others here are trying to make.  So, using Omars driving example.  I've been driving since I was 16.  I'm now 36.  20yrs of driving, yet when I went from a 4cyl. car to a V8 Camaro, I had to adjust to that car and it took time.  Going from a car where you stepped on the gas and barely moved, to one that you stepped on the gas and flew forward.  Same thing if you go from a car to an SUV.  You're still driving, but its now a larger vehicle.  To think that you could go from driving a Ford Escort to an 18 wheeler, is foolish IMO.  

As for mixing things together....again Cody, this is what you're failing to see.  Just mixing for the sake of it, with no solid structure behind it, isn't going to amount to much, especially if the person doing it, doesnt have a solid martial arts background.  How long have you been training again?  If you're a beginnger and you think you can take a little of this, a little of that, a pinch of this, a pinch of that, mix it together, pop it in the over, and boom...some 'new' creation, you're kidding yourself, and doing more harm than good, to anyone that you teach.  As I've said, when I'm doing techs. I'm able to flow between Kenpo and Arnis and back to Kenpo again, without giving it much thought, but the huge difference is, is that a) I've been training for over 20yrs, and b) I'm not trying to mix something to create something new.  All the arts I do, when I teach, I teach them seperate.  If I do show some Arnis in Kenpo class, I do make it clear that we're now doing Arnis and Arnis is also a requirement in my Kenpo school, at the upper ranks.


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## MJS

The Destroyer Style said:


> Actually I think BJJ is pointless if you are surrounded. I know I'm not going to take someone to the ground and grapple in that situation. I don't think MMA makes a very deadly kind of fighter. My point is someone trained is better then someone not. If they take a set list because of someone else they are still real fighters. They just aren't going to learn more then anyone else.


 
Wrong, you missed the point. The wannabe guys are taking things that are high percentage moves for others and making the claim for everyone else. Just because you see Rickson pull a move off, or Mike Tyson, does NOT mean that you or I or anyonoe else, will be able to do the same thing. Again, if you can't see the reasons, I dont know what to tell you. If you dont understand that, then you have no business creating something. Furthermore, you still miss the point about the training. You do not have much time in the arts. How can you expect to teach someone, be able to answer questions, show them right from wrong, if you yourself, only have a year or so under your belt? 




> You put us in a catagory as I told Omar that is narrow minded. No not everything works the same for everyone I agree. In Boxing the heaviest man hits harder. That is why alot take different styles.


 
Bro, I've been training longer than you've been alive, I bust my *** on the mat, and have proven what I can do, so for you to say I'm closed minded is childish on your part. In your dream to help others, you fail to see what the more experienced people here are trying to tell you. In your eyes, you feel that you could train in boxing for a month and run out and teach someone. I say you're not going to teach them much.



> It might not be the most effective technique, but training in it takes away a huge fear of getting hit. It also teaches you to keep you face and ribs protected. I don't beleive in a high percentage anything. Either it works at that time or it doesn't. Each situation calls for something different. Trust me I will be the last person to try a flying arm bar in a real fight, or try to take someone to the ground for that matter. Once on the ground you have to finish that fight or figure out how to get away. Its good to know how to do both, but best avoided if anything.


 
If you want to teach, you need to have experience, which you are lacking. We're telling you, you dont want to hear. Dont know what else to say, except God help those that you are teaching. Your heart is in the right place, but for Gods sake get yourself some training first, then worry about others.



> Some of the techniques are universal knee kicks, knees, elbows, punches. If the fighter were trained well and stuck to his basics he has just as much chance to survive as any fighter. I think he may even be calmer, because he is already use to getting hit. The may not have alot of weapon knowledge, but in an unarmed fight they are going to be harder to stop then someone without training.


 
You just said it...if the fighter were trained well. How can you train someone well, if your training exp. is lacking? While I do believe that basics are key to success, you need that solid foundation as well. 

This reminds me of the Karate Kid. Great movie, loved watching it as a kid, and I still watch it from time to time. Remember when Daniel was doing his learn by book Karate, when Miyagi (sp) walked in. He said, "Oh, you learn from book?" Dan said, "Yeah, and a few months at the Y." Did you see the look on Miyagis face? 

In this case, you're Daniel, and the others here are Miyagi. We're trying to guide and help you, but you dont want to see it. 

Dude, you make it sound so simple, but its not. I could tell my wife to do an elbow. Would it be effective? Who knows, but I'd be willing to bet that I could take her, and make that elbow twice as effective. Why? Because I, unlike you, have been training long enough, to understand the basics. Sooo much more than just throwing it. Footwork, body alignment, proper stance, proper movement...all things that are key to success. A white or yellow belt isn't going to have that down as quick as you think. How much training time do you have again? Oh thats right:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1235670&postcount=9

You learned some techniques from a friend.  I wonder...did your friend just show you a random tech. or did he start you out with a proper foundation?  How much time did you spend with Sean?  You said he taught you Jujitsu.  Ok...so did he start you out with a foundation first?  You know, position before submission and techniques, because without a solid base, NO, I repeat NO tech. will amount to anything.  

I dont know why I bother sometimes, as I seems as if I'm talking to nobody.  Sigh......

Let me ask you something....do you always argue with those that know more than you?  I mean, I could see if you had 10yrs worth of solid training, 12yrs, hell 15, but...how much do you have again?  

I know, I know...it seems like I'm picking on you Cody, like I'm singling you out.  Once again, your heart is in the right place, but God damn bro, sit down and listen to what you're saying, and what others are saying.  I wish that you lived closer to me, because you seem like you have your heart in the right place, have a strong desire to learn, and that IMO makes a good student.  I like teaching people like that, because they would probably stand a better chance to sticking with it, compared to someone whos heart wasnt really in it.


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## MJS

Chris Parker said:


> (This could be a long one...)
> 
> *(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) Wich of those fighting styles do you think would adapt the best for someone who has a lack of strength? I think they both seem pretty awsome. I did this video mainly for the elbow strikes, I know alot of time to I felt like he should swing twice and he was worried about hitting me. I was also wandering how does a military system work? How do you become certified in something like that? When a civilian learns it do they give them belts? Sorry I know thats alot of questions, but I figured I wanted to find out as much as I could about it. I will put slow motion on the next things I do. I was just pressed for time with the last one. I don't know why, but slow motion takes a while to upload.*
> 
> Which would be the best for someone who has a lack of strength? Really, you're looking at the wrong thing. You are fixated on the idea that there is one system that will provide you with all the answers, while remaining completely unaware of the fact that most arts do actualy provide you with the skills for a smaller, weaker person to survive an assault, and even come out on top. Strength is an issue in sports, and size in bodybuilding. Oh, and frankly, to someone with very little experience, most things we could direct you to would seem "awesome" to you, but you would probably still miss most of what you were seeing.
> 
> You did it for the elbow strikes? Why? For the set-up you had, an elbow is a poor choice of a weapon to use. It's too short, and relies on very good body dynamics, which are hampered when seated in a chair. They can work, but these were not good examples. And as for your training partner, yeah I can see he was concerned about hitting you... but he was more worried about you hitting him! If you can't see that, don't teach/show/make videos!
> 
> As for the military systems, why do you want to know? Are you going to join one of these schools, or the army? If so, find a school and ask. If not, it is irrelevant. Oh, and I'm not talking about slowing down the film, I'm talking about you slowing down your actions and demonstrations so it can be seen clearer. It will also take a level of control you have not yet shown, as it takes away from your ego-based "look at how fast I am!" way of demonstrating. Again, if you don't know how to demonstrate properly, stop teaching/showing/making videos!
> 
> *(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) It is reasons like this that I feel a one on one base is needed for teaching. I know sometimes that almost impossible with large classes, but I feel the person learning would gain more that way. That is something I would also like to do. It may take hours of work, but in order to really help someone I think it would go a long way to work with them myself instead of having a huge class. Maybe four to six people at one session. I'm sure alot of people already teach this way. I don't think it will make you rich or famous, but something modest would help people more then a huge thirthy person class at once.*
> 
> *I do think if you have people you trust to help train that it helps alot, but is not the same. If I can't make a personal connection with someone I don't think I will understand what they need to take from something I could teach them. Some people need physical protection, some confedence, some just want to be stronger. I think its important to know*
> *what they really need.*
> 
> Based on.....? Really, this all reads like a typical sports fan who, although not having anything to do with the sport, team, or anything other than being an outside observer, deciding that they know how the team should train and play. There are benefits to both group and small teaching styles, but it doesn't seem like you have an understanding of either.
> 
> Oh, and you bringing up being rich and famous is interesting... as I have said, this all comes across to me as an exercise in ego. You have (very!) limited experience in any martial arts at all, have "padded" your resume, claim over 12 years when you have less than two actual education, and that is split over two systems, post videos of you hitting someone to demonstrate your "skills" on youtube, and talk about what is missing in martial arts (when it isn't, you just don't have the education on the subject), and how you're approach is much better. You then talk about what your system is designed for (for smaller, weaker, and handicapped people), while nothing you have shown fits your description whatsoever.
> 
> All of this adds up to someone basically stroking your own ego. The claims of why you are doing all this ("if that knowledge doesn't go to help others. You haven't did anything worth speaking of (sic)".) come across as a way to get people to listen to you. You may believe (consciously) that you are actually doing that, but none of your actions match. Instead, it is all about your ego, and the way you want to be seen. If you were really interested in helping people in this way, check your ego, drop the idea of developing your own style at all (now or in the future), go to a school, and learn. When you have some real experience under your belt, you may realise that you have absolutely on need to develop a new system, as the one you study may (and probably will) give you more than you need to help people in the way you are talking about.
> 
> To then bring up the idea of becoming "famous or rich", even saying that it probably won't happen that way, cinches it. This idea of being known for your style is on your mind, and this is all an exercise in ego. Sorry, but this is nothing to do with helping people, so either you will take this advice, or you will attack back at this percieved slight. If the former, then you may have been shocked into waking up and growing up a bit, if the latter, well, that will just prove my point really.
> 
> *(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) I clearly put on the vidoes not to use and it was my way of fighting. Which means meant for me. I put the last one up for here. So yeah you did miss the point. My videos are not called instructionals. If anything they are up for an opinion from others who know more then me. If you read the side that (says more info) it says pros out there that would like to add to this please do.*
> 
> So you put videos up with the following disclaimer/blurb at the beginning of one of them (only): This is my own fighting private style, The Destroyer Style. It is a mixture of all fighting styles I know. I have used only techniques that work. All of my techniques could permanently injure an opponent so please do not practice them unless you do them slow and cautiously. Never fight unless it is a life or death situation. Every life is valuable and should be protected....
> 
> As I have already said, this little blurb here seems to serve only to give the impresson that you actually know what you are talking about. And as I have already said, the clips themselves show you don't. But really, the only reason to put them up is for people to see them. And if you are wanting people to see them, you want them to learn from them (this isn't entertainment here, it's presented in the guise of educational material). So your claims here of "it's just for me, it's not instructional, it's so others who know better can give me ideas" is either lying (possibly to yourself as well), or just plain ignorant of the nature of what you are doing (both in regards to martial arts and posting videos online).
> 
> Oh, and pro's aren't going to make comments. You will only get them from people just as inexperienced or worse. But I have made some comments about your clips here (albeit nowhere near as detailed as I could be), and that doesn't seem to have been taken on board. You don't want to be seen as an instructor? Stop teaching/showing/making videos!
> 
> Oh, and for the love of all that is good and holy, Choson Ninja as a friend there? Really? That does not help your credibility at all, you know, but I'm not going into why with our fraudbusting rules in effect...
> 
> *(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) Sorry, but if someone asks for help I will help them to the best of my knowledge. I will tell them it is limited. If you want more then that you really are wasting time. You can tell someone not to teach it, but you really don't know if they listen unless you follow them around. I can send you links with the legal definition of selfdefence all its limitations, even what I have looked up for handicap people. It doesn't make me an expert, but it does mean I'm not blind to it. It would depend on the person as to how you would teach them. If someone has a mental handicap it would be much different from someone who does not. It doesn't matter how old the person is, it depends on their own understanding as to what they can learn.*
> 
> If someone asks for help, you can say no. Say you aren't experienced enough, you're really just a beginner yourself. You do not have to show them anything, especially if you are not in a position to be of any real help. You really can do more harm if you try to teach to early than if you don't teach at all. If you don't understand that, then you have no business teaching/showing/making videos.
> 
> Oh, and talking to people like JKS about what reading you've done on self defence legal definitions isn't going to help. I would suggest that his understanding is significantly higher.
> 
> Originally Posted by *shesulsa*
> 
> 
> _So you can copy moves. Good for you. Do you have an underlying theme to your style? If so what would that be? What is the approach, per se?_
> 
> _I think anyone can take a list of moves and show someone else how they do them - it doesn't mean it's right._
> 
> 
> 
> *(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) Yes I can, but so can anyone. Help others and yourslef have a better life and be stronger. I think there is a different approach for every situation and person. Sure they can. No it doesn't make it right, I never said it did. I do think if the technique fits the situation they are facing or may face later. It doesn't hurt to show them. *
> 
> (Had to include Shesulsa's original quote there, the answer is a bit multi-directional...) Just copying moves does not a martial artist (or martial art) make. I believe that was Shesulsa's point to begin with. This whole post is saying you think there is a move for every situation, and if you approach martial arts with that idea in mind, then you miss the point entirely.
> 
> As for Shesulsa's asking about if you had an underlying theme to your system, you have missed the point on that as well. Your answer "Help others and yourslef have a better life and be stronger" is a personal value, not a philosophical base upon which to establish a martial system. One of the things that makes a particular martial art unique and distinct from others is it's guiding philosophy. That is then expressed through it's movements and actions, which are physical expressions of the strategies and tactics the philosophy requires. You are focussing on the moves, and have none of the basis we have been talking about. This is why you cannot form your own system, even if you want to.
> 
> *(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) You were talking about a ring. Everyone I know that fights in a ring learns boxing. Thats was my point if something works in a ring it will work against someone who doesn't have training.*
> 
> *(Originally posted by Shesulsa) A common misconception.*
> 
> *(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) How so? *
> 
> Oh boy. You know, I'm just going to say this: sport = sport, self defence = self defence. Lots of things that you do in a ring will not work in a street environment, lots of things that you do for self defence will not be applicable/work in a competitive environment. Many many threads here on that, no need to rehash old ground.
> 
> *(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) So let me get this straight. Are you saying that someone who learns MMA would not be a good match for someone on the street? *
> 
> Okay, I'm going to break this one down, there are too many ideas going on at once here...
> 
> Sport systems can help in a number of ways, but they are geared specifically to a very different environment and situation to a street self defence situation. This would be that guiding philosophy I was talking about. The guiding philosophy behind MMA is very simple, it is to attain success in competitive matches through multiranged unarmed combative-themed tests. So it trains accordingly, and that means a focus on one-on-one, no weapons, sport-specific rules, padded ground, and more. Now the skills can certainly be transferable to a great degree, but it is not designed for street defence, and a number of it's tactics are quite dangerous to try in a real fight. Got it?
> 
> *You think mixtures poor and somewhat inefective? It really depends on the person who learns it don't you think? *
> 
> Mixtures where you just grab a bit of this and a bit of that are often very ineffective, as they are based not in a philosophy, nor a proven or tested methodology, but in the personal preferences and tastes of a single (often talented, experienced) individual, but being so specialised to them makes it less-than successful when it comes to transfering the skills to others. Without a real, impersonal base, it is often destined to fail after the founder of such a non-art is gone or just moves on to something else.
> 
> But bear in mind that what makes it work is not the techniques, it is the fact that the person doing it is experienced, and has found (legitimately) what works and what gels with their personality. Just putting together what makes sense to you is not the same, as a lot of common sense and rational belief goes out the window when it comes down to it.
> 
> *Because I have a hard time with grammar doesn't mean I am beyond help. Putting down people for training even if it isn't the best way to you. Means that you are narrow minded and not much of a human being to mock them like that.*
> 
> Okay, gotta ask. Why are you putting that full stop in there (the second one here... between "you" and "Means")? Why does your mind split one sentence like that? Because it happens far too often for it to be anything but deliberate, whether conscious or unconscious is the question. This isn't to put you down, I just don't understand how that particular synapse fires so often.
> 
> Oh, and I wouldn't go around calling Omar narrow minded and not much of a human being because he is trying to help you (he is, you know. The stuff about training, even if it isn't the best? He, and most of us here, really, are saying that if you train badly, with false ideas, false understanding, no experience, no basis, then it is worse than no training at all. That is helpful, not narrow minded). If you listen to the advice given, and take it, then you may find that years down the track, when you are coming to this from a much more removed perspective, we have really been incredibly gentle.
> 
> 
> *I will also say, that if you have not trained in the fighting styles they have and climb into the ring with them you are just out of luck. *
> 
> And what happens if they haven't trained in the systems I have? How's their luck then? I have swords, remember, don't know how their muto dori is in the UFC...
> 
> *Don't get me wrong I know they aren't the best, but they are some of the most strong willed people in the world. *
> 
> I've known plenty of incredibly strong willed people, some of them not even martial artists, let alone MMA competitors! Really, they are athletes, very well trained, very very well conditioned (in most cases...), but athletes.
> 
> *You would litterally have to kill them before they would stop. Which I really don't think you would be able to. They aren't the joke that you make them out to be. Each one has their own style and individuality.*
> 
> Not really sure what you are meaning by this... I would have to kill them? Really? Okay, as I said, I have swords... But I think you are a little misguided. They are athletes. That's it. They can be stopped without killing them, you know. And yes, each has their own personal preference in terms of tactics and strategies, based on their personalities, body types, and more, but really, they all have very similar bases to work from, and very similar guiding philosophies, so the personal differences are no more than you would see in any higher-level practitioners in any system. Note the hgher-level part...
> 
> 
> *They train everyday non stop for physical and mental disapline. *
> 
> No they don't. They would collapse, and it would actually be detrimental to their development. They do train intensly, but non-stop everyday is stupid. Rest days are needed, and taken by smart trainers.
> 
> *You can hit them as hard as you want they will still keep coming. *
> 
> Really. You seem to be idolising MMA stars a bit, attributing to them more than they are. They get knocked out, get tapped out, get beaten all the time. And martial arts aren't about hitting hard...
> 
> *They enjoy fighting somone at a higher level then themselves. They might not be the deadliest fighters in the world, but they still deserve respect. *
> 
> And they have respect. But I respect them for what they are, not for what you imagine them to be.
> 
> *(Originally posted by The Destroyer Style) Well if your not a good fighter your aren't going to defend yourself very well. Driving both still gives you expeireience behind the wheel. Frankeinsteins Monster was brute who could have ripped a normal person in half. Its all in how you use what you learn that counts. Its funny to you because you don't struggle with it. However I see you struggle in making effective comparisons so I will let it go. *
> 
> Oh boy. Yes, and if you're not a good driver, you're going to end up in a ditch. As to Omar's comments about a racing driver versus driving to work, the way the car works is the same, but the mechanics of driving them is actually very different. If you drive around a track the way you drive to work, you will go far too slowly, and probably get cleaned up. If you drive to work the way you drive around a track, you end up in a tree.
> 
> Frankensteins Monster, by the way, was not a brute. That is a major part of the irony of the story; the talented, genius Doctor was internally a monster, and the Creation, outwardly grotesque, a great hulk who inspired fear in all those around him, was gentle and looking for beauty. Therein lies the irony and tragedy of the story of Frankenstein. Just so you know.
> 
> But his comparrison was not too bad, really. The Monster was created out of disparate parts, and never fit either with the world around him, or within himself, leaving him ultimately doomed, as he cannot reconcile himself in any way. These mutt-martial arts are similar, in that without a real base to work from, there is no congruence, and the conflicting concepts that make it up will actually lead to a lack of power/skill/ability. Frankenstein's Monster indeed.
> 
> Finally, Cody, I'm going to say this bluntly.
> 
> Stop posting videos. Stop teaching others. You do not have the requisite experience or understanding. Get a teacher, and join a school. Stop thinking about starting your own system until you have some more experience, as you will most likely find that you just don't need to. And please either get a better understanding of grammer and paragraphing, or at least read your posts back to yourself before posting them to check them out. It'll help you here no end.


 
QFT!! QFT!! QFT!!  My God, I wish that I could rep this post about 50 more times, but alas, I give some green rep and a 'thanks' for this very well worded post.


----------



## Xue Sheng

The Destroyer Style said:


> Actually I think BJJ is pointless if you are surrounded. I know I'm not going to take someone to the ground and grapple in that situation. I don't think MMA makes a very *deadly* kind of fighter. My point is someone trained is better then someone not. If they take a set list because of someone else they are still real fighters. They just aren't going to learn more then anyone else. You put us in a catagory as I told Omar that is narrow minded. No not everything works the same for everyone I agree. In Boxing the heaviest man hits harder. That is why alot take different styles.
> 
> It might not be the most effective technique, but training in it takes away a huge fear of getting hit. It also teaches you to keep you face and ribs protected. I don't beleive in a high percentage anything. Either it works at that time or it doesn't. Each situation calls for something different. Trust me I will be the last person to try a flying arm bar in a real fight, or try to take someone to the ground for that matter. Once on the ground you have to finish that fight or figure out how to get away. Its good to know how to do both, but best avoided if anything.
> 
> Some of the techniques are universal knee kicks, knees, elbows, punches. If the fighter were trained well and stuck to his basics he has just as much chance to survive as any fighter. I think he may even be calmer, because he is already use to getting hit. The may not have alot of weapon knowledge, but in an unarmed fight they are going to be harder to stop then someone without training.


 
Back to deadly are we?

And as to techniques being universal; would you like a list of the various types of knee kicks, knees, elbows and punches I have trained and or encountered?



MJS said:


> Wrong, you missed the point. The wannabe guys are taking things that are high percentage moves for others and making the claim for everyone else. Just because you see Rickson pull a move off, or Mike Tyson, does NOT mean that you or I or anyonoe else, will be able to do the same thing. Again, if you can't see the reasons, I dont know what to tell you. If you dont understand that, then you have no business creating something. Furthermore, you still miss the point about the training. You do not have much time in the arts. How can you expect to teach someone, be able to answer questions, show them right from wrong, if you yourself, only have a year or so under your belt?


 
In support of what MJS is saying and from my CMA POV; just because you know 1 move to counter a specific attack, say use a cross block against a straight punch does not mean that a cross block will work against all punches that can be categorized as a straight punch, they are not all the same. Small variations in force can make them very different. And there are variations and differences in a cross block that range form a simple cross block to a strike to Qinna.

Cody, bottom-line, IMO, and as MJS has stated; Your heart is in the right place but you simply do not have the background to do this at this time, you need more training, a lot more training. And additionally your young and you have the time to get the training so take the advice you are getting here as advice, not an attack and get on with your training so you can get to what you claim to want to do.


----------



## jks9199

"Someone trained is better than someone not."

Not necessarily.  If you train everyday in poor or ineffective ways, you won't be prepared for reality no matter how much you train.  If your training destroys your body so that you can't rely on it when you need to, it's not.

Some years ago, several law enforcement officers were killed in a shootout.  Their deaths triggered a number of changes in training.  One of the changes was how reloading was done -- because several of them died with either neat piles of spent brass or spent brass in their pockets.  Why'd that happen?  In training on the range, they were required to pick up their brass.  So, to save time and make it easier to clean up, they would either pile it neatly or put it in their pocket.  And what'd they do under pressure?  EXACTLY what they practiced -- which cost them vital seconds in a fire fight.

Or... as my teacher would say, you've been lied to all your life.  Practice doesn't make perfect; only PERFECT practice makes perfect.


----------



## jks9199

The Destroyer Style said:


> Well if your not a good fighter your aren't going to defend yourself very well. Driving both still gives you expeireience behind the wheel. Frankeinsteins Monster was brute who could have ripped a normal person in half. Its all in how you use what you learn that counts. Its funny to you because you don't struggle with it. However I see you struggle in making  effective comparisons so I will let it go.


Actually, there are plenty of skilled competitive fighters who not only suck -- but get seriously hurt when it comes to defending themselves in a real deal.  There are vital differences between sport and reality.  There's a parable about a which animal will run faster, the fox or rabbit...  The rabbit will outrun the fox because, while the fox is chasing its dinner -- the rabbit is running for its life.  In a real violent attack, they're not facing a relatively equal opponent who is going to pretty much comply with the rules.  The old Jim Carey skit about being attacked "the wrong way" is a great example...


----------



## jks9199

MJS said:


> Again, this isn't to discredit them, but simply to show a point, that I, Omar, and a few others here are trying to make.  So, using Omars driving example.  I've been driving since I was 16.  I'm now 36.  20yrs of driving, yet when I went from a 4cyl. car to a V8 Camaro, I had to adjust to that car and it took time.  Going from a car where you stepped on the gas and barely moved, to one that you stepped on the gas and flew forward.  Same thing if you go from a car to an SUV.  You're still driving, but its now a larger vehicle.  To think that you could go from driving a Ford Escort to an 18 wheeler, is foolish IMO.



One more thing on the driving analogy, to highlight the difference in reality versus sport.

The academy my agency uses has a great training track, special built for them by a company with a reputation for building race tracks.  The guy who designed the academy track, who was nationally known for police driver training, had to argue with the track builder about several turns.  Why?  Because they weren't banked the way a racetrack is.  There is exactly one racetrack-style banked turn on the track; it's at the end of a long straightaway, and it's banked as the slowdown area for the high speed stuff.  The rest of it is banked -- or not banked! -- like a regular road.  Because we don't drive cruisers fast on racetracks.  We drive them in the real world, where turns are often banked "backwards" because the priority is on drainage, not facilitating high speed driving.  And our track replicates the real world... which means our training prepares us for the real world.  We practice in cruisers just like the ones on the road, with the same equipment set up the same way, as on the streets.  The track has traffic lights, intersections, and more.  The only thing it doesn't have when we train on it is traffic...


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

jks9199 said:


> Or... as my teacher would say, you've been lied to all your life.  Practice doesn't make perfect; only PERFECT practice makes perfect.



Absolutely jks9199! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Cody no one here is trying to make you feel bad or also trying to diminish you.  Instead we are trying to give you good, sound advice that could help you get to where you want to be some day. ie. a teacher!


----------



## The Destroyer Style

jks9199 said:


> "Someone trained is better than someone not."
> 
> Not necessarily. If you train everyday in poor or ineffective ways, you won't be prepared for reality no matter how much you train. If your training destroys your body so that you can't rely on it when you need to, it's not.
> 
> Some years ago, several law enforcement officers were killed in a shootout. Their deaths triggered a number of changes in training. One of the changes was how reloading was done -- because several of them died with either neat piles of spent brass or spent brass in their pockets. Why'd that happen? In training on the range, they were required to pick up their brass. So, to save time and make it easier to clean up, they would either pile it neatly or put it in their pocket. And what'd they do under pressure? EXACTLY what they practiced -- which cost them vital seconds in a fire fight.
> 
> Or... as my teacher would say, you've been lied to all your life. Practice doesn't make perfect; only PERFECT practice makes perfect.


 

I see now, you mean that because of what they were did learn it killed them. They reacted only in that one way, because that was what they were used to. Its because what they were shown didn't cover a real life or death situation they died. I see your point now. I deffinately don't want that kind of result from anything. Thats why you guys have been saying even if they don't know anything it could do more harm then good. I'm sorry I have mis under stood your concerns. If I cause someon to react a certain way only it might get them killed.

I guess I kind of thought because I would react differently, that they would to. What you told me proves that a commen since thing to one person isn't to the rest. Is this the Hollywood fire fight wou are talking about? I was just wandering. I will stop trying to help people. I deffinately don't want something of that nature to happen to my friends. Why do you think they did that? Didn't they know they were in danger? Why didn't they instinctively know? I don't understand why they would waste time on that.


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## shesulsa

jks9199 said:


> Some years ago, several law enforcement officers were killed in a shootout.  Their deaths triggered a number of changes in training.  One of the changes was how reloading was done -- because several of them died with either neat piles of spent brass or spent brass in their pockets.  Why'd that happen?  In training on the range, they were required to pick up their brass.  So, to save time and make it easier to clean up, they would either pile it neatly or put it in their pocket.  And what'd they do under pressure?  EXACTLY what they practiced -- which cost them vital seconds in a fire fight.



I've heard a similar story about disarming a perp only to put the weapon right back in their hand.  Disarming drills take A *TON* of practice to be even *remotely* effective and it usually goes something like this:

Opponent attacks with weapon
Officer defends and disarms
*repeat* <----this is where the officer would put the weapon back in the opponent's hand before the drill starts again

The drill is repeated again and again with increasing speed and intensity since ... you know, disarming drills take a TON of practice to be even remotely effective.

And in the field officers were getting hurt or worse doing as they trained - disarming and ... returning the weapon to the perp immediately.

These are not untrained people to be sure and they certainly have faced more than the average citizen is likely to face, so it's no joke.

:asian:


----------



## The Destroyer Style

Oh, and you bringing up being rich and famous is interesting... as I have said, this all comes across to me as an exercise in ego.






Its kind of an inside joke between me and my friends. They tell me that something like that won't amount to much, but I tell them getting a cage might end in death. I would rather be poor and alive then rich and dead. Not saying that they really will die. Its just something we joke about.


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## The Destroyer Style

shesulsa said:


> I've heard a similar story about disarming a perp only to put the weapon right back in their hand. Disarming drills take A *TON* of practice to be even *remotely* effective and it usually goes something like this:
> 
> Opponent attacks with weapon
> Officer defends and disarms
> *repeat* <----this is where the officer would put the weapon back in the opponent's hand before the drill starts again
> 
> The drill is repeated again and again with increasing speed and intensity since ... you know, disarming drills take a TON of practice to be even remotely effective.
> 
> And in the field officers were getting hurt or worse doing as they trained - disarming and ... returning the weapon to the perp immediately.
> 
> These are not untrained people to be sure and they certainly have faced more than the average citizen is likely to face, so it's no joke.
> 
> :asian:


 

Do you mean because they practiced it so much that in real life they gave an enemy a weapon back?


----------



## jks9199

The Destroyer Style said:


> I see now, you mean that because of what they were did learn it killed them. They reacted only in that one way, because that was what they were used to. Its because what they were shown didn't cover a real life or death situation they died. I see your point now. I deffinately don't want that kind of result from anything. Thats why you guys have been saying even if they don't know anything it could do more harm then good. I'm sorry I have mis under stood your concerns. If I cause someon to react a certain way only it might get them killed.
> 
> I guess I kind of thought because I would react differently, that they would to. What you told me proves that a commen since thing to one person isn't to the rest. Is this the Hollywood fire fight wou are talking about? I was just wandering. I will stop trying to help people. I deffinately don't want something of that nature to happen to my friends. Why do you think they did that? Didn't they know they were in danger? Why didn't they instinctively know? I don't understand why they would waste time on that.


Dude, you really need to take some time when you write.  This is almost impenetrably badly written.

No, it wasn't the North Hollywood shootout; in fact, the North Hollywood incident demonstrated how well some of the lessons learned in this one had been taken to heart.  The shootout I'm referring to occurred between several FBI agents and two robbery suspects in Miami, FL, in 1986.

You asked why they'd do that; it's simple.  We do as we practice.  Think back to high school; did you ever go to the wrong classroom (or at least start towards it) at the start of a new semester because you went back to the class from the last semester?  Their training had primarily consisted of going to the range, executing courses of fire.  I don't know if you shoot -- but picking up brass, whether revolver or pistol, is one of the least fun parts of it.  There's no easy way to do it other than getting down, and picking it up.  And it takes time.  Nobody likes it... so it's easy to understand trying to make it easier and quicker.  I'm sure they told themselves "this is just a range thing..."  Unfortunately, those habits and trained practices carry over under pressure.  Under pressure, our mind and body reach for the easiest way to accomplish a goal; if there's one that you've practiced and done a lot, it's going to do that -- even if it's not the best choice.  Chris Parker can probably break the mechanism down better -- but this is the way I see it.  Have you ever watched water run down a hill?  At first, it's slow as it picks its way around stuff, finding the easiest way to go down.  But as it passes, it carves a channel and it moves faster.  And if you dump water down that hill after the channel's been carved -- it's going to run down the channel, much faster.  Training is like the initial carving of the channel; you wear a route through your nerves and muscles, and then, under pressure, the "quickest route" is chosen -- the one you've practiced.


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## jks9199

The Destroyer Style said:


> Do you mean because they practiced it so much that in real life they gave an enemy a weapon back?


Yes.

Or they helped the guy up after throwing him to the ground.  Because when they practiced, they helped their partner get up.


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## Tez3

What makes a deadly fighter isn't training or techniques, it's something inside that enables you to kill. Whether it's to defend yourself or to be a criminal there is something almost like a switch that you can flip on that enables you to be ruthless when fighting. A whole new thread could be made on what flicks that switch ie a mother defending her child, a man defending his family, a ruthless criminal etc etc whatever but it's not a style or technique that makes you deadly.
An MMA fighter can be every bit as deadly as anyone else under the right circumstances, his/her training doesn't come into it, as I've said many times MMA is a sport, most fighters I know have a core style mostly TMAs (few of our fighters have ever done boxing, it's nearly always karate, TKD or MT. I know a couple of CMA guys too), we don't do MMA to learn to kill people but to compete so MMA is probably best left out when considering SD, it has it's uses in that you do learn to take punches, kicks etc and to think quickly. It doesn't take much to adapt techniques for SD and no fighters aren't hampered by thinking they have to stick to rules when defending themselves outside of competitions! ( thats the usual comment...MMA fighters always think they are in the ring/cage!)
We train specifically for an named and equally matched opponent, we train things like getting up from being up against the ropes/cage. We train to use the ropes/cage itself, depending too on how soft the cage is ( some cages have cord, others are like wire). We train to outwit your opponent.
MMA is physical chess, thats the fun of it, matching your skill, techniques and wits against an opponent. It's a game, defending yourself against an attack isn't. After a fight you will find the fighters swapping techniques, experiences and probably heading towards the bar to buy each other a drink, that another part of the fun.
At our club MMA and SD are taught separately, there are overlapping techniques of course and the fitness and ability to grasp techniques quickly that most MMA and indeed TMA practitioners have is very useful.
I don't know any fighter though that likes fighting with someone of a higher ability, that wouldn't be fair. Training with someone who's better, oh yes, every time!


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## shesulsa

The Destroyer Style said:


> Do you mean because they practiced it so much that in real life they gave an enemy a weapon back?



YES. That's what I mean when I said:



shesulsa said:


> And *in the field officers were getting hurt or worse doing as they trained* - disarming and ... returning the weapon to the perp immediately.


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## jks9199

Sorry, Tez, but MMA isn't physical chess.  THIS is physical chess!
[yt]fWUuQhX6rHY[/yt]

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

On a serious note -- you make a great point about mindset!


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## Tez3

What on earth will they think of next lol!


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## theletch1

shesulsa said:


> YES. That's what I mean when I said:


 We've had several threads in the past on exactly this subject.  You MUST train until what you're doing is instinctive.  That means you don't have to think about what you're doing... it just happens.  Unfortunately, any flaw that you have in your training, like handing the weapon back as Shesulsa said or pausing after you've finished a particular technique or even just helping your training partner up off of the floor, will translate into how you actually fight.


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## morph4me

I recently heard a story of a high ranking aikidoka who was attacked and defended herself successfullyahd had her attacker locked up. Whe he yelped with pain she immediately let him go, and paid dearly for that mistake.  

It takes more than knowing a few random techniques to be a teacher, it's understanding how and why the techniques work, the body mechanics and dynamics involved, and how to transmit that knowledge in a variety of ways to adapt to someone's learning style. 

Without the proper foundations you may get a technique to work in a given situation, but won't be able to adapt it when that situations changes, and the situation changes constantly in a self defense situation, adaptability is a must.

You can't learn this without proper guidance, and experience, and you don't get either in just a couple of years, some people never get it. There are some people that have 20 years experience, and there are some people who have 1 year's experience 20 times.


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## Tez3

morph4me said:


> I recently heard a story of a high ranking aikidoka who was attacked and defended herself successfullyahd had her attacker locked up. Whe he yelped with pain she immediately let him go, and paid dearly for that mistake.
> 
> It takes more than knowing a few random techniques to be a teacher, it's understanding how and why the techniques work, the body mechanics and dynamics involved, and how to transmit that knowledge in a variety of ways to adapt to someone's learning style.
> 
> Without the proper foundations you may get a technique to work in a given situation, but won't be able to adapt it when that situations changes, and the situation changes constantly in a self defense situation, adaptability is a must.
> 
> You can't learn this without proper guidance, and experience, and you don't get either in just a couple of years, some people never get it. There are some people that have 20 years experience, and there are some people who have 1 year's experience 20 times.


 

We must be horrible to train with, when someone yelps with pain we grin....and don't let go. Our instructor insists on immobilising the attacker and we learn to do the recovery position just for that reason!


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## morph4me

Tez3 said:


> We must be horrible to train with, when someone yelps with pain we grin....and don't let go. Our instructor insists on immobilising the attacker and we learn to do the recovery position just for that reason!


 
I let up on the pain, but not the control, until I deem it safe to do so, even in training.


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## Omar B

morph4me said:


> I recently heard a story of a high ranking aikidoka who was attacked and defended herself successfullyahd had her attacker locked up. Whe he yelped with pain she immediately let him go, and paid dearly for that mistake.
> 
> It takes more than knowing a few random techniques to be a teacher, it's understanding how and why the techniques work, the body mechanics and dynamics involved, and how to transmit that knowledge in a variety of ways to adapt to someone's learning style.
> 
> Without the proper foundations you may get a technique to work in a given situation, but won't be able to adapt it when that situations changes, and the situation changes constantly in a self defense situation, adaptability is a must.
> 
> You can't learn this without proper guidance, and experience, and you don't get either in just a couple of years, some people never get it. There are some people that have 20 years experience, and there are some people who have 1 year's experience 20 times.



This is why it takes many years to earn a black belt and a couple more to be a 3rd degree.  You don't get your own dojo before that point because it takes years of practice, study and work with your seniors to get all the concepts involved and how to transmit them.

When I talked about styles being cobbled together and I specifically said _combatives_ he still took that to mean MMA which are polar opposites but he doesn't get that.  But anyways, lacking a unified philosophy in your style is like what's going on with Kimbo.  Great fighter against people untrained or less trained than him with the training here and there, but against a smaller karateka he folded in seconds (literally).

Why is it every person who doesn't know a thing about martial arts always bring up MMA even when it was not mentioned by the way?  After all, we are talking about self defense that he wishes to gear towards the disabled.  So able bodied men in a ring on a perfect surface with rules, refs, time limits, breaks to confer with coaches, protective gear and perfect lighting conditions.  This compares how to the real world where you never know in advance, its usually on a rough/hard surface, there are no rules, you rarely ever see your opponent before the actual attack, you are not wearing your fighting gear, etc ... oh, and you are physically disabled.


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## theletch1

morph4me said:


> I let up on the pain, but not the control, until I deem it safe to do so, even in training.


 I can attest to that!  Tom has a way of "clicking" halfway between full on street level mindset and calm teacher at need.  We have got to get back together for some training when I'm done with school, my friend. 

We recently had a new student in the dojo that insisted that it was just rude not to help uke up after throwing them.  I gave her uke a look that said "Explain to her where the mistake in that mindset is, please".  The next time she threw him she put her hand out to help him up and found herself mounted with him simulating devastating punches to her head.  She stopped helping folks up after that... and that societal training to always be courteous is fodder for another thread in and of itself.


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## theletch1

Omar B said:


> Why is it every person who doesn't know a thing about martial arts always bring up MMA even when it was not mentioned by the way? After all, we are talking about self defense that he wishes to gear towards the disabled. So able bodied men in a ring on a perfect surface with rules, refs, time limits, breaks to confer with coaches, protective gear and perfect lighting conditions. This compares how to the real world where you never know in advance, its usually on a rough/hard surface, there are no rules, you rarely ever see your opponent before the actual attack, you are not wearing your fighting gear, etc ... oh, and you are physically disabled.


You answered your own question.  Doesn't know a thing.  When one doesn't understand even the rudiments of what's going on it's easy to misconstrue even the most obvious (to the trained) concepts as being alike when they may well be worlds apart.  The same thing can happen between trained practitioners of different arts that haven't taken the time to research other styles/sub-styles.  Many folks don't understand that there's a difference between sport and traditional TKD.  Many don't see a difference in the various styles of aikido and so on.  It's a matter of what's visible to the masses.  MMA is all over the television right now and mixed *martial arts* is what they clue in on.  It never occurs to them that what they are seeing is something tailored to the sporting arena.


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## Tez3

theletch1 said:


> I can attest to that! Tom has a way of "clicking" halfway between full on street level mindset and calm teacher at need. We have got to get back together for some training when I'm done with school, my friend.
> 
> We recently had a new student in the dojo that insisted that it was just rude not to help uke up after throwing them. I gave her uke a look that said "Explain to her where the mistake in that mindset is, please". The next time she threw him she put her hand out to help him up and found herself mounted with him simulating devastating punches to her head. She stopped helping folks up after that... and that societal training to always be courteous is fodder for another thread in and of itself.


 
The way our instructor teaches, the uke's landing isn't the end of the technique, there's always a couple of more moves after that. It's alright after that to help them up, they tend to need it. If he 'helps' someone up straight after he's thrown them it's because he's going to do something with them, such as a compliance hold to march them off/throw them out etc.
Some people find it odd that in the MMA class we only put techniques on till you can feel them, then you tap, we don't see the point in getting hurt in training but in the SD class (the same people usually) we are quite robust about techniques. One of the things my instructor says is that to have confidence the techniques work you do need to feel some of the pain yourself, not all obviously! It works for me, especially with some of the Aiki type moves as they never look like they can cause pain let alone stop someone. As a female I have to know that stuff works on the big guys so bless them they grit their teeth while I find out. We really don't go overboard on ukes though, honest!


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## theletch1

Tez3 said:


> The way our instructor teaches, the uke's landing isn't the end of the technique, there's always a couple of more moves after that. It's alright after that to help them up, they tend to need it. If he 'helps' someone up straight after he's thrown them it's because he's going to do something with them, such as a compliance hold to march them off/throw them out etc.
> Some people find it odd that in the MMA class we only put techniques on till you can feel them, then you tap, we don't see the point in getting hurt in training but in the SD class (the same people usually) we are quite robust about techniques. One of the things my instructor says is that to have confidence the techniques work you do need to feel some of the pain yourself, not all obviously! It works for me, especially with some of the Aiki type moves as they never look like they can cause pain let alone stop someone. As a female I have to know that stuff works on the big guys so bless them they grit their teeth while I find out. We really don't go overboard on ukes though, honest!


 Har! I've broken me uke. Bring me another! 

The aiki type things that never look like they can cause pain let alone stop someone is exactly the sort of thing that I was getting at in the latter part of my post.  There are so many subtletees to the martial arts that even trained MAist in another style can't always figure out what's going on so can we really blame some one with no training for making a grander mistake?  I have to say that this thread has had the potential for getting very nasty and I'm impressed that everyone here has shown a level of restraint when offering advice.  So, too, should the OP be applauded for being mature enough to come to the realization that he still doesn't know more than he knows and realizing that folks here have his best interest in mind. :asian:


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## Omar B

theletch1 said:


> You answered your own question.  Doesn't know a thing.  When one doesn't understand even the rudiments of what's going on it's easy to misconstrue even the most obvious (to the trained) concepts as being alike when they may well be worlds apart.  The same thing can happen between trained practitioners of different arts that haven't taken the time to research other styles/sub-styles.  Many folks don't understand that there's a difference between sport and traditional TKD.  Many don't see a difference in the various styles of aikido and so on.  It's a matter of what's visible to the masses.  MMA is all over the television right now and mixed *martial arts* is what they clue in on.  It never occurs to them that what they are seeing is something tailored to the sporting arena.



Seems to be one way to get a straight answer in this thread, provide your own!  I guess something being on TV makes everyone an expert.  But that I can understand, I've got pretty high opinions of my thoughts on football.

Ok, gotta be at the dojo at 4:00.  Be back 7:00ish.


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## Tez3

Omar B said:


> Seems to be one way to get a straight answer in this thread, provide your own! I guess something being on TV makes everyone an expert. But that I can understand, I've got pretty high opinions of my thoughts on football.
> 
> Ok, gotta be at the dojo at 4:00. Be back 7:00ish.


 

You have high opinions of yourself on AMERICAN football not _the one and only beautiful game_...... football!!


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## Omar B

I meant both.  I'm a fan of both.  Oh, how you feel about Rooney being made captain btw?  I like that dude's aggression out there.

I know you guys call soccer/football "the beautiful game."  But when I think of a beautiful game I think of _women's beach volleyball_.  Now that's a beautiful game!


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## Tez3

Omar B said:


> I meant both. I'm a fan of both. Oh, how you feel about Rooney being made captain btw? I like that dude's aggression out there.
> 
> I know you guys call soccer/football "the beautiful game." But when I think of a beautiful game I think of _women's beach volleyball_. Now that's a beautiful game!


 
LOL! I can't stop to comment too much as it's half four in the morning here, I'm up early to go to a martial arts seminar in aid of charity, it includes Gatka which I'm excited about! 
http://triomartialartists.com/

See you later!


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## Omar B

Black Belt Mag interivew with Michael Jai White.
_
*There&#8217;s now a split between the pragmatic type of martial arts student and the complete martial arts student. I think you see that in some of the reality-based stuff where they strip away everything except what works physically.*
That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m so happy to see traditional martial artists like Lyoto Machida and Fedor Emelianenko who are solo martial artists in every sense of the word. They&#8217;re able to dominate people who [operate] on the surface. Fedor is a simple family man who is not about the gladiatorial thing. 

I train with a lot of these MMA guys and there&#8217;s so much that they&#8217;re lacking because they skip over the basics. Sometimes it&#8217;s harder to teach someone who hasn&#8217;t learned the proper basics. If they don&#8217;t have those, it&#8217;s very easy to beat them. They&#8217;re absolutely confused when a traditionalist comes out who can strike efficiently and break bricks with his bare hands, the balls of his feet and shins. 

A lot of these UFC guys have been through this farm system, and they&#8217;re fighting against other gung-ho people without the proper skills. They have grappling skills, but it doesn&#8217;t take very long to be proficient in that. But to strike&#8212;I liken it to Tiger Woods&#8217; swing. I&#8217;m a lot bigger and probably a lot stronger than Tiger Woods. If you had to have one of us hit you in the chin with a golf club, you better choose me because Tiger Woods, with his technique, could probably crack your chin in half with a golf club. He&#8217;s perfected that swing. He&#8217;s done that thousands, maybe millions of times. 

*It&#8217;s like Lyoto Machida in his fights. It&#8217;s all about efficiency. *
I&#8217;ve watched Machida for a long time. We fight very similar. Rampage has contacted me to try to help him out a bit in the event that he has to fight Machida. A lot of the MMA guys have no idea how to block the stuff I throw because they&#8217;re just not used to that fighting style_ 

The dude makes some great points.  Read the whole thing here - http://www.blackbeltmag.com/michael_jai_white_black_dynamite/archives/816


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## xJOHNx

excellent find!


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## MJS

Well, its been a while since this thread was started, so I thought I'd ask...

Cody,  have you looked into any training, under a teacher?


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## Touch Of Death

The Destroyer Style said:


> These are some basic self defence techniques from my own personal fighting style. It was invented to help people with handicapps or weaknesses. In a real fight the least amount of effort with the most effect is what you want. http://www.youtube.com/user/BecomingTheWarrior1
> 
> Thanks for reading Cody


Pretty clean stuff!


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## The Destroyer Style

MJS said:


> Well, its been a while since this thread was started, so I thought I'd ask...
> 
> Cody, have you looked into any training, under a teacher?


 

There really isn't anything near me other then sports based styles. I guess I will just have to wait till something opens up closer.


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## jks9199

The Destroyer Style said:


> There really isn't anything near me other then sports based styles. I guess I will just have to wait till something opens up closer.


Or...

Take what you can where you are, and then work with it, training for reality.  Often the difference between reality and function is in how you train more than the material and techiques.  See, for example, Ian Abernathy's work.


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## MJS

The Destroyer Style said:


> There really isn't anything near me other then sports based styles. I guess I will just have to wait till something opens up closer.


 
www.kenponet.com

Not sure how accurate or up to date this info is, but there are 3 Kenpo schools in WV.

Here are some Ninjutsu schools and a Kali school.

Bujinkan Dojo 

Genbukan

Kali

JKD
http://www.jkd-garydill.com/schools.htm

Wing Chun
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/schools/schools_usa.html

Krav Maga World Wide
http://www.kravmaga.com/index.php?option=com_xtremelocator&Itemid=179

I second what JKS said as well.  Additionally, if there is something in a neighboring city/town/state, and it meant driving a bit to get there, do it.  One of the guys who trains with my Arnis inst. drives about 2hrs 1 way just to train.  Of course, he doesnt do this every day, but my point is, if you're dedicated enough and its something you want, do it.


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## MJS

Almost forgot....

http://martialtalk.com/schools/

http://www.ichf.com/

http://www.wmarnis.com/schools_us.htm


Its possible some members here on the forum, may live in that area, and could help you out with finding a school.  As I said, things may not be around the corner, but IMO, if it meant some solid training, the drive shouldn't matter.  If there was a school that interested you, but it was a 2hr drive, lets say, perhaps you could set up an extended private lesson.  Ex: Train for 2-4hrs at a time.


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## Omar B

MJS, you said a mouthfull.


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## The Destroyer Style

MJS said:


> www.kenponet.com
> 
> Not sure how accurate or up to date this info is, but there are 3 Kenpo schools in WV.
> 
> Here are some Ninjutsu schools and a Kali school.
> 
> Bujinkan Dojo
> 
> Genbukan
> 
> Kali
> 
> JKD
> http://www.jkd-garydill.com/schools.htm
> 
> Wing Chun
> http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/schools/schools_usa.html
> 
> Krav Maga World Wide
> http://www.kravmaga.com/index.php?option=com_xtremelocator&Itemid=179
> 
> I second what JKS said as well. Additionally, if there is something in a neighboring city/town/state, and it meant driving a bit to get there, do it. One of the guys who trains with my Arnis inst. drives about 2hrs 1 way just to train. Of course, he doesnt do this every day, but my point is, if you're dedicated enough and its something you want, do it.


 

Thank you. I am actually about two hours from a Krav Maga school you put a link to. I will check it out first chance I get. Thanks again (Cody)


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## Chris Parker

Great to hear Cody! The best way to help people (the way you are saying you want to) is to make sure you are genuinely prepared yourself. Best of luck with everything.


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## MJS

Glad I could help.  I'm also glad to see that something caught your eye.  As I said, your heart is in the right place, and hopefully, if you do go, the school will be right for you. 

Mike


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## Brian R. VanCise

That's great Cody and good links MJS.


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## Bruno@MT

Good on you cody.

Based on the things you told us so far, krav maga sounds like something you'd enjoy. Keep us informed.


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## jks9199

Since this got brought up... Are you out there, Cody?  How are things going?


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## Transk53

Epic thread. Well I hope he did not do something stupid and get himself, or others, hurt or worse!! His thread title did bring some happy memories of Nigel Benn Well hopefully the kid has found happiness and is thriving.


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