# Buying a Mook Jong wooden dummy



## 8009 (Oct 19, 2012)

Hello friends,

in order to work out in more ways, i have been planning to have a Mook Jong in my basement, alongside my heavy bag, my speedbag platform, etc. I have been searching online, but hadn't found any cheap enough dummies, and was looking for materials to make the dummy myself. I didn't find either appropriate wood pieces or pvc in my area and had forgotten about the project for awhile. Just recently i discovered some dummies from Europe, where i am located, which i can get in prices i am willing to pay, about 600-800 euros.

The thing is i know nothing about Wing Chun, have never seen a dummy live, or touched one, nor have ever trained with one. So since i want a free standing unit, not a wall mounted one, i have some questions. I see in videos that wall mounted dummies "bounce", move a bit when struck. So do some free standing dummies, but not all. WHAT is the official specification and the best way for a dummy to behave? Should it be able to move a bit when struck? Is that the proper way to train with a dummy? Does it matter? Is it just a matter of preference?

Also, does the weight play a role? What is the proper weight for a dummy? 

So i am looking to choose between a few free standing models. Some of them are more "portable" than others, which would suit my needs in a better way. But maybe they won't be as stable when struck, as the bolted models? Any experience with these more "portable" models?


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## Takai (Oct 20, 2012)

Not to seem harsh but, without proper training the dummy will be more of post with sticks coming out of it than a tool. To that end what is your actually purpose for it? If you are just going to hit something hard and use it condition your limbs you will find other methods that are simpler (and cheaper).

The dummy may look simple but it is actually a very complex tool. The array of skills that the dummy is teaching you (through proper use) is extensive.  Dummy form cannot be learned from a book and if you ever decide to train in WC later more than likely you will have to unlearn bad habits. Is there a WC instructor in the area that you could at least speak to?

I realize that I did not answer your questions. I do apologize for that but, I thought a few issues should be brought to light before continuing.


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## 8009 (Oct 20, 2012)

Takai said:


> Not to seem harsh but, without proper training the  dummy will be more of post with sticks coming out of it than a tool. To  that end what is your actually purpose for it? If you are just going to  hit something hard and use it condition your limbs you will find other  methods that are simpler (and cheaper).
> 
> The dummy may look simple but it is actually a very complex tool. The  array of skills that the dummy is teaching you (through proper use) is  extensive.  Dummy form cannot be learned from a book and if you ever  decide to train in WC later more than likely you will have to unlearn  bad habits. Is there a WC instructor in the area that you could at least  speak to?
> 
> I realize that I did not answer your questions. I do apologize for that  but, I thought a few issues should be brought to light before  continuing.




No offence but what you re saying is useless to me. Because it  is self-evident, i am already aware of it. My purpose for the dummy is  to learn and practice Wing Chun, obviously. I understand it is hard for  people to look at things in a non-orthodox way, especially for people  who are making money/a living off teaching the stuff in question. The  same happened to me over a music forum where i was asking about how to  choose an electronic drum set, and learn on my own. 99% of people said  "go to a teacher (you arrogant idiot)", i said "i ll learn on my own and  maybe go to a teacher at some point". Neither drumming or wing chuning  is brain surgery, so a year and a half later, on my own, and i sound  like those rock star drummers i admired in my teenage years, double  bassing in ever higher speeds. If one is interested in something and has  enthusiasm, everything is possible.

So, the way i am planning to  go is, have the best dummy i can afford ready along my other training  equipment, then start training through videos, books, etc, maybe go to a  teacher if i feel like at some point. Which means i would mostly  appreciate answers to my specific dummy questions, not general comments  on how normally one would go about to properly learn Wing Chun. Thanks.  And greetings to all forum members. Its not arrogance, its just that  some people have different learning ways from others.


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## clfsean (Oct 20, 2012)

No... The best thing is to find a teacher & learn. Period. Buying a Mook Yan Jong without knowing what to or how to practice makes as much sense as skateboarding down a mountain. You're only going to get hurt.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos & brevity of posts.


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## 8009 (Oct 20, 2012)

clfsean said:


> No... The best thing is to find a teacher & learn. Period. Buying a Mook Yan Jong without knowing what to or how to practice makes as much sense as skateboarding down a mountain. You're only going to get hurt.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos & brevity of posts.




How can i get hurt, the wooden dummy is not striking back  The drummers also told me i would be getting terrible body pains or even approach paralysis, if i didn't go to a teacher to learn proper stance, etc. Damn, how egotistical people get for the things they profess in. My body just adapted in the best way possible, to playing.

Listen, if you re so 'interested' in me not getting hurt why don't you give me simple answers to my questions? That way i will buy the right kind of dummy and not get hurt. Im gonna buy the dummy before i learn how to use, for sure, i ve decided that. You don't get it, i have this place in my basement which is my personal training corner, the Wing Chun dummy is also another nice part to my collection, a collectible if you will that i wanted to have for some time now. 

I LL FIND A TEACHER, I PROMISE. I LL SENT THIS COMMITMENT WRITTEN AND SIGNED IF YOU WANT! Now can i have some simple answers to my simple questions??


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## geezer (Oct 20, 2012)

8009 said:


> I LL FIND A TEACHER, I PROMISE. I LL SENT THIS COMMITMENT WRITTEN AND SIGNED IF YOU WANT! Now can i have some simple answers to my simple questions??



Great. But you don't really have to send it to us. I, for one would accept your written and signed promise if you take a picture of it and post it on this forum.


--OK,_ I'm just kidding_. But the points people made about not trying to teach yourself Wing Chun are correct. If you are serious about learning true Wing Chun. 

First of all, consider that Wing Chun is a subtle, _tactile_ art. It's more about feel, energy vectors and structure than what you see. Having a qualified instructor is essential to experience these things. And, when you are practicing on your own, a _live dummy,_ or training partner, is far more important than a wooden dummy. The Mook Yang Jong Fat, or wooden dummy set, is only practiced by advanced students to refine and polish their skills. It's not what you start with!

Now, on the other hand, if you are working as a generic martial artist or doing your own self-taught take on something like JKD, then some kind of dummy-like equipment might be helpful and fun to train on. But if you are going for the creative, exploratory/self-taught route, Why bother with an expensive _traditional_ Wing Chun Dummy that is designed to promote and correct traditional WC technique? In this case you'd probably learn more by designing and building your own dummy-like apparatus according to the movements you want to train. There are all kinds of things like that on youtube that you could look at for inspiration. If you do that, have fun and good luck. Maybe you could get back to us and post some photos or a videoclip of what you come up with. I'd be interested. I've made all kinds of things like that for my Escrima training. Some equipment worked well, others --not so much, but it was still fun.

Still, keep in mind that although there's nothing wrong with doing your own thing, _it ain't Wing Chun._


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## yak sao (Oct 20, 2012)

8009, welcome to the forum.
I know you're not liking what you're hearing, but the fact of the matter is, you are asking the proper way to train on a piece of equipment without having laid the foundation for which that particular piece of equipment was built for.
WC is about learning proper body mechanics from the ground up and then later using the dummy to help refine your skills.

No, you probablly won't get maimed or paralyzed from improper use of the dummy, but you won't be doing WC. Even if you "look" like you are executing flawless technique, without proper instruction it's an empty shell.

Not arrogance on my part or anyone else's here that has responded. What you are hearing is the voice of experience.

I have had so many people come to me over the years who say they have picked up WC from a book or video. On the surface some of them look half way decent. But once you pressure test what they are doing they fall apart.

So to answer your question as to which one to buy...it doesn't matter. As stated above, a pretty expensive thing to purchase. You might be better off building one to your own specs and needs.


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## 8009 (Oct 21, 2012)

geezer said:


> Great. But you don't really have to send it to us. I, for one would accept your written and signed promise if you take a picture of it and post it on this forum.
> 
> 
> --OK,_ I'm just kidding_. But the points people made about not trying to teach yourself Wing Chun are correct. If you are serious about learning true Wing Chun.
> ...




Think i should *go with a JKD model instead of a traditional WC one?* They look pretty nice with the head almost shaped and all.

I ve been looking for a piece of wood for the body or a pvc pipe but i don't even have the appropriate tools to work properly on those, and i haven't even found either. And most likely it would be a very amateurish job. I want to have it in my training corner and feel good when i look at it, not think its a piece of crap i put together with my minimal knowledge. Kind of like a gift to myself i ve been wanting to make, like one gets a watch or a laptop, etc. And i ll take it from there, concerning training, knowledge, teachers, etc. I am indeed of the exploratory self taught type, some things have worked out, like drumming, othere have not, like electric guitar, whatever. If i need to get deeper into something, i ll obviously seek for people more knowledgeable than myself. I ve never been to a school of a martial art, cause i don't have the time, money, patience or urge of competitiveness to do so. I ve just been working out and practising/reading/learning about boxing, kick boxing, kung fu, ninjutsu, karate, muay thai, and others, just as a means of health, fun, knowledge, personal self defense cultivation, that's all, i m not interested in degrees, titles, cross-martial art styles competitiveness, "purity" of style, "mystique super secret moves and knowledge", etc. 
Thanks for the info. But you didn't actually answer my questions.


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## 8009 (Oct 21, 2012)

yak sao said:


> 8009, welcome to the forum.
> I know you're not liking what you're hearing, but the fact of the matter is, you are asking the proper way to train on a piece of equipment without having laid the foundation for which that particular piece of equipment was built for.
> WC is about learning proper body mechanics from the ground up and then later using the dummy to help refine your skills.
> 
> ...



Come on, you could have given me a more honest answer, at least. I bet that the experienced users will do it on purpose if they answer to this thread, they will try NOT to give a definitive answer to the arrogant noob, lol. 

Ok, for me it doesn't matter which one i buy. Tell me about yourself. You are experienced. Which one do you personally prefer, a rigid dummy or a bouncy one? Can you answer me that?


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## mook jong man (Oct 21, 2012)

8009 said:


> Come on, you could have given me a more honest answer, at least. I bet that the experienced users will do it on purpose if they answer to this thread, they will try NOT to give a definitive answer to the arrogant noob, lol.
> 
> Ok, for me it doesn't matter which one i buy. Tell me about yourself. You are experienced. Which one do you personally prefer, a rigid dummy or a bouncy one? Can you answer me that?



First off , you sound like a real smart ****.
Secondly , these guys don't owe you friggin anything.

If you want to get information off people  around here you'd best remember to mind your manners and show a bit of respect.


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## Danny T (Oct 21, 2012)

8009,

In this case of wanting to use a tool which seems rather simple to use is a mistake. You are probably more intelligent than I so won't have the kind of problems I had. I too wanted to learn the dummy early in my WC training. Studied the JKD dummy sets learning the moves and tempering my arms. Being ignorant of what I was doing only want to learn it now had a dummy made for me and spent hours on it. Trained with what I later realized was a intermediate level practitioner who has also learned the dummy too early and now had what looked good but...! I could make what I had work on some people but soon it became apparent I forcing all my techniques using way too much power. When I started working with some highly skilled people they easily destroyed me using my force and power against me. The postures were correct but the end positions, force, and control was completely wrong. Why because I had not built the proper foundation first. Yes I did SLT but did not have it properly ingrained and was actually destroying on the dummy what training I did in SLT. Again You probably won't have that problem because you probably are a better athlete and have a better understanding of your body and the tactile sense I had to learn. And then relearn it all when I started to train with a very highly skilled WC practitioner. I wasn't a beginner martial artist at this time having trained in boxing, Goju Ryu, and TKD. When I saw and felt Wing Chun it was something I had to learn and now have spent almost 30 years training in. After approx 3 years of low level WC training and mistakenly learning the dummy I had to 'RELEARN' it took almost 2 years to repair the damage I created by ingraining it Wrong! Could I do the dummy, Yes; did it look good, yes; did my WC work, only on beginners and intermediate practitioners who were somewhat compliant. My eye opening came from a small lady who had trained for just over a year elsewhere, was visiting and came in to train for a couple of classes while in town. She, with only a year of training, took me out of my element and I resorted to muscling her, only way I could handle her. So my WC was not WC. As to Wing Chun today I am very good and very confident in my abilities to function and pass it on, Properly. 
I have had 3 students over the years just as you and I that trained wing chun incorrectly and had to relearn to correct the many mistakes.

So this is my story, you probably won't have the problems I developed because...???

As to which type, Traditional, JKD, Springy, Fixed: IF you understood the energy that is developed and used by the different systems and refined by the use of the dummies you would not be questioning which one. Not that you should not question, you should. It is just that you to seem to want comfirmation and affirmation not information.


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## 8009 (Oct 22, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> First off , you sound like a real smart ****.
> Secondly , these guys don't owe you friggin anything.
> 
> If you want to get information off people  around here you'd best remember to mind your manners and show a bit of respect.




First of all, i wasn't talking to you and i m not interested in how "i sound" to you. I m  just being honest.

Secondly, i don't owe anyone here anything either. That's the beauty of discussion between adults when no one owes the other anything: they can have a worry-free honest discussion. I don't see anything wrong with that.  

I don't understand your comment, as i have not let myself be disrespectful in trying to extract some answers in this thread.





Danny T said:


> 8009,
> 
> In this case of wanting to use a tool which seems rather simple to use  is a mistake. You are probably more intelligent than I so won't have the  kind of problems I had. I too wanted to learn the dummy early in my WC  training. Studied the JKD dummy sets learning the moves and tempering my  arms. Being ignorant of what I was doing only want to learn it now had a  dummy made for me and spent hours on it. Trained with what I later  realized was a intermediate level practitioner who has also learned the  dummy too early and now had what looked good but...! I could make what I  had work on some people but soon it became apparent I forcing all my  techniques using way too much power. When I started working with some  highly skilled people they easily destroyed me using my force and power  against me. The postures were correct but the end positions, force, and  control was completely wrong. Why because I had not built the proper  foundation first. Yes I did SLT but did not have it properly ingrained  and was actually destroying on the dummy what training I did in SLT.  Again You probably won't have that problem because you probably are a  better athlete and have a better understanding of your body and the  tactile sense I had to learn. And then relearn it all when I started to  train with a very highly skilled WC practitioner. I wasn't a beginner  martial artist at this time having trained in boxing, Goju Ryu, and TKD.  When I saw and felt Wing Chun it was something I had to learn and now  have spent almost 30 years training in. After approx 3 years of low  level WC training and mistakenly learning the dummy I had to 'RELEARN'  it took almost 2 years to repair the damage I created by ingraining it  Wrong! Could I do the dummy, Yes; did it look good, yes; did my WC work,  only on beginners and intermediate practitioners who were somewhat  compliant. My eye opening came from a small lady who had trained for  just over a year elsewhere, was visiting and came in to train for a  couple of classes while in town. She, with only a year of training, took  me out of my element and I resorted to muscling her, only way I could  handle her. So my WC was not WC. As to Wing Chun today I am very good  and very confident in my abilities to function and pass it on, Properly.
> I have had 3 students over the years just as you and I that trained wing  chun incorrectly and had to relearn to correct the many mistakes.
> ...




Right. Thanks for sharing your story man. Its not that i think of myself as more "smart", i just do things my way. This can have positive or negative outcomes, instead of going 'by the book' when learning something, which normally has only positive outcomes. I understand all that.

What i see is the well know sense of 'purity' in your sayings though, purity of the specific martial art, WC, which you didn't acquire from the beginning. Nothing is wrong with perfecting a martial art exactly the way it is supposed to be perfected according to this or that style, according to this or that school or whatever. It just does not interest me personally. To let you understand, i am more interested in studying differences and similarities across different martial arts that appeal to me, insted of 'perfecting' the purity of a single martial art.

For example, when i was asking about double bass, about 1.5 year ago in a drummer forum (double bass is the continuous hitting of the bass drum with two pedals and both legs, used in heavy metal music, i think you know what i m talking about), which requires some practice and cannot be achieved overnight, i was asking the guys and each one told me about a different way to do it. The world's most famous metal drummers, too proposed a different way to achieve it! Pressing with the upper part of the foot on the pedals, or with the whole foot, lifting the knees, or just lifting the foot, primarily using the ankles or the thigh muscles, etc! In practice i found out that all of them worked more or less! Why? Because the body can adapt more or less. Some of the methods worked BETTER for me, though. Why? Because of the way my own body is formed. The techniques i use now that i can play double bass, are specific to my own legs/posture/way of playing. Why? Because my body is unique, as is each person's body.

That's the way i tend to look at martial arts as well. I try to use what i like from each art/style and what i feel is effective to have on my self defense plan in the back of my head when i walk outside. Apart from that purpose i view them simply as training, not primarily concerned about the 'purity' with which i engage in each one. 

I admit this thread gave me second thoughts on how useful a dummy will be to me, but i feel that even if i just use it to throw non-WC chops randomly on the wood, it wouldn't be that bad, even for that kind of minimal use! I just like the thing and want to have it. 

You gave me the first real hint to my questions though, that "springy or fixed dummies depend their usefulness on the particular system and the kind of energy associated with it and refined by the use of the dummy". So i guess that's what i am going to research now.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 22, 2012)

8009 said:


> No offence but what you re saying is useless to me. Because it  is self-evident, i am already aware of it. My purpose for the dummy is  to learn and practice Wing Chun, obviously. I understand it is hard for  people to look at things in a non-orthodox way, especially for people  who are making money/a living off teaching the stuff in question. The  same happened to me over a music forum where i was asking about how to  choose an electronic drum set, and learn on my own. 99% of people said  "go to a teacher (you arrogant idiot)", i said "i ll learn on my own and  maybe go to a teacher at some point". Neither drumming or wing chuning  is brain surgery, so a year and a half later, on my own, and i sound  like those rock star drummers i admired in my teenage years, double  bassing in ever higher speeds. If one is interested in something and has  enthusiasm, everything is possible.
> 
> So, the way i am planning to  go is, have the best dummy i can afford ready along my other training  equipment, then start training through videos, books, etc, maybe go to a  teacher if i feel like at some point. Which means i would mostly  appreciate answers to my specific dummy questions, not general comments  on how normally one would go about to properly learn Wing Chun. Thanks.  And greetings to all forum members. Its not arrogance, its just that  some people have different learning ways from others.


To be completely honest, it's a lot different learning how to play a musical instrument then it is learning a martial art. I took lessons on how to play drums, my brother didn't but he practiced a bit more..I like to think I'm slightly better, but in reality we're probably completely even. However, I doubt it would work the same way in martial arts. First of all, it is a lot more technical to learn a martial art than it is to learn drums. Maybe compare it to piano?Would be a lot tougher and you;d make a lot more mistakes if you tried to learn piano without a teacher than drum. The second thing is you pay for each mistake. If you start off not knowing the difference between french and german grip for drum sticks, and just making up your own, you'll fix yourself on a practice pad and no real damage will come to you. However, if you punch a wooden object incorrectly, yes eventually you'll learn how to punch correctly, but a lot of damage will come to you before hand, some that may be permanent. Finally, you can learn how to FIGHT without instruction, but you can't learn a martial art without instruction, each one ha nuances that aren't evident in self-training or even other martial art...theyll hit with different parts of their hand/different knuckles, and place a different emphasis and punches/kicks/throws. You can't learn that through hitting a wooden dummy. Sorry this sounds so harsh, but if you dont heed our advice, youll hurt yourself, and you may think you learned wing chiun after a year, but then if a WC master saw you, he would know you hadnt, and see many wrong with your form that are now ingrained into your body and will be tough to fix if you even listen to him and let him help you fix it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 22, 2012)

8009 said:


> How can i get hurt, the wooden dummy is not striking back  The drummers also told me i would be getting terrible body pains or even approach paralysis, if i didn't go to a teacher to learn proper stance, etc. Damn, how egotistical people get for the things they profess in. My body just adapted in the best way possible, to playing.
> 
> Listen, if you re so 'interested' in me not getting hurt why don't you give me simple answers to my questions? That way i will buy the right kind of dummy and not get hurt. Im gonna buy the dummy before i learn how to use, for sure, i ve decided that. You don't get it, i have this place in my basement which is my personal training corner, the Wing Chun dummy is also another nice part to my collection, a collectible if you will that i wanted to have for some time now.
> 
> I LL FIND A TEACHER, I PROMISE. I LL SENT THIS COMMITMENT WRITTEN AND SIGNED IF YOU WANT! Now can i have some simple answers to my simple questions??


I'm incredibly involved in both playing music and martial arts. I am not 'egotistical' towards either, and will freely admit you can learn how to drum and/or play guitar or bass or even eventually piano by yourself. In fact, it's quite common. However, learning a subtle martial art is completely different. You can do it, but it is much more dangerous to your body, and you wont learn it correctly.


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## 8009 (Oct 22, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> To be completely honest, it's a lot different learning how to play a musical instrument then it is learning a martial art. I took lessons on how to play drums, my brother didn't but he practiced a bit more..I like to think I'm slightly better, but in reality we're probably completely even. However, I doubt it would work the same way in martial arts. First of all, it is a lot more technical to learn a martial art than it is to learn drums. Maybe compare it to piano?Would be a lot tougher and you;d make a lot more mistakes if you tried to learn piano without a teacher than drum. The second thing is you pay for each mistake. If you start off not knowing the difference between french and german grip for drum sticks, and just making up your own, you'll fix yourself on a practice pad and no real damage will come to you. However, if you punch a wooden object incorrectly, yes eventually you'll learn how to punch correctly, but a lot of damage will come to you before hand, some that may be permanent. Finally, you can learn how to FIGHT without instruction, but you can't learn a martial art without instruction, each one ha nuances that aren't evident in self-training or even other martial art...theyll hit with different parts of their hand/different knuckles, and place a different emphasis and punches/kicks/throws. You can't learn that through hitting a wooden dummy. Sorry this sounds so harsh, but if you dont heed our advice, youll hurt yourself, and you may think you learned wing chiun after a year, but then if a WC master saw you, he would know you hadnt, and see many wrong with your form that are now ingrained into your body and will be tough to fix if you even listen to him and let him help you fix it.




I can't say you re wrong in the things you say. I understand all that. Since i am not a retard i won't start punching the wood as if its a heavy bag, so i will not get hurt this way. My point is, what you say about the master that would see me: i don't recognize that master, because my goal is not to be a perfect Wing Chun practisioner! That's exactly what i am saying, if you take a WC master, a ninjutsu master, a XXXX master, etc, each one will have a different thing to say about a situation, a stance, a fighting condition, etc. Instead i look at the individual and not the martial art. Correct me if i am wrong, but aren't all martial arts, fighting forms that initially were created in the minds and bodies of self-taught, inspired individuals and evolved from there up to this day?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 22, 2012)

8009 said:


> I can't say you re wrong in the things you say. I understand all that. Since i am not a retard i won't start punching the wood as if its a heavy bag, so i will not get hurt this way. My point is, what you say about the master that would see me: i don't recognize that master, because my goal is not to be a perfect Wing Chun practisioner! That's exactly what i am saying, if you take a WC master, a ninjutsu master, a XXXX master, etc, each one will have a different thing to say about a situation, a stance, a fighting condition, etc. Instead i look at the individual and not the martial art. Correct me if i am wrong, but aren't all martial arts, fighting forms that initially were created in the minds and bodies of self-taught, inspired individuals and evolved from there up to this day?


Well, some people who aren't retards still think punching it like a heavy bag is a good idea, not because they're stupid but because they don't know any better. And most of the time they were not self-taught, they were created either by someone who already had martial experience and passed it down, or by a conglomerate of people working together to create the style/art/techniques. These people may or may not have had official experience, but multiple people work better than one in something like this. In an instance where it was self-taught by a founder who never had a teacher, the style was either evolved by the disciples through each generation before it was actually formidable, or never became a known and formidable art.


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## J W (Oct 22, 2012)

8009 said:


> WHAT is the official specification and the best way for a dummy to behave? Should it be able to move a bit when struck? Is that the proper way to train with a dummy? Does it matter? Is it just a matter of preference?
> 
> Also, does the weight play a role? What is the proper weight for a dummy?





8009 said:


> I ve never been to a school of a martial art, cause i don't have the time, money, patience or urge of competitiveness to do so. I ve just been working out and practising/reading/learning about boxing, kick boxing, kung fu, ninjutsu, karate, muay thai, and others, just as a means of health, fun, knowledge, personal self defense cultivation, that's all, i m not interested in degrees, titles, cross-martial art styles competitiveness, "purity" of style, "mystique super secret moves and knowledge", etc.



I think the reason you aren't getting answers to your original question is that there really is no answer for it. You start by asking for very specific specifications for the dummy, but then say that you have no real interest in learning Wing Chun or any other martial art. It sounds like you don't really need the dummy to help you practice any specific martial art, you just want a cool looking toy for your basement gym. Which is fine, but as was said before, if that is the case then the specs don't matter. Just buy whichever one you like the best.



8009 said:


> No offence but what you re saying is useless to me... I understand it is hard for  people to look at things in a non-orthodox way, especially for people  who are making money/a living off teaching the stuff in question.
> 
> So, the way i am planning to  go is, have the best dummy i can afford ready along my other training  equipment, then start training through videos, books, etc, maybe go to a  teacher if i feel like at some point. Which means i would mostly  appreciate answers to my specific dummy questions, not general comments  on how normally one would go about to properly learn Wing Chun.





8009 said:


> I don't understand your comment, as i have not let myself be disrespectful in trying to extract some answers in this thread.



I'm sure you didn't mean to come of as disrespectful, but that is the problem with text conversations. Your intended attitude doesn't always come through. Intended or not, you did sound arrogant and disrespectful. 

You tell someone that their advice is useless, you suggest that the members of this forum (many of whom have a ton of experience; I assume this is why you chose to ask them your question) are locked into an archaic way of thinking, and you state that you intend to learn a complex martial art through books and DVDs (which implies that what they've spent years working hard to achieve isn't really all that difficult). 

I don't mean to attack you here, just point out that your attitude can easily be interpreted as "I don't need your advice, just answer my damn questions". If you aren't receiving the answers you want, it may be that the question didn't lend itself to an easy answer. Or maybe people aren't inclined to be helpful when they feel insulted.


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## Danny T (Oct 22, 2012)

8009,

Purity??
No, has nothing to do with purity.
As you have stated, it is about being effective; Effective in training time, effective in function, and that effectiveness must be against lower as well as higher skilled opponents. However, it isnt about what one feels or believes is effective.  It is about what Is Effective. 
I also will use whatever I need from where ever but not until I have researched and trained it to understand it. Just because I am able to perform does not mean I have it or understand it.

I agree with you about martial systems, for the most part, are about training. Should be and not about style; for everyone is style of their own. However, training incorrectly only re-enforces incorrect structure, position, force, vectors, shearing, timing, range, and a host of other functions. Sure you may be somewhat better than someone who doesnt train. Better physical shape but your understanding and ability to function properly and effectively in a high stress situation against a highly aggressive and effective attacker will be questionable. 
So, you certainly can go about it your way, on your own and learn, the hard ineffective way. Or, you can heed the advice of those who KNOW and learn effectively, as what you state you want to be.

Good Luck in your training

Some food for thought on the dummy. Why are the arms made the way they are? Why the arm shanks and the holes square. (it is much easier to drill a round hole vs a square) there is movement in the arms, why? Why are the arms the length they are? Why are the arms tapered?  Why are the arms angled? How high are the arms in relation to the practitioner? What is the distance between the upper arms and the middle arm and the leg? Why that distance? Why it the dummy body the diameter it is? These are but some of many questions to answer to have an understanding of what are some of the energies associated with training on the mook jong and why. 

The dummy is not just a block of wood with pegs sticking out to represent arms and a leg. There is a purpose for every aspect of the dummy and effective training and function.


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## sihing_steve (Oct 22, 2012)

Your analogy between learning how to drum and how to perform WC falls short for this reason.

While you may be able to drum alone, you cannot train WC alone and a wooden dummy is no substitute for an actual training partner or teacher.  From my experience, 99% of learning WC comes from partner training.  That is, getting together with someone who can give you correct impulses such that your muscles can learn how to react off of these impulses coming from your training partner.

Unfortunately you will never learn WC by purchasing a wooden dummy and teaching yourself through videos and books.

If you would like me to try and be more specific to your wooden dummy questions, I'll say this.

Buy whatever you like, can afford, and have fun with it.


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## 8009 (Oct 23, 2012)

sihing_steve said:


> Your analogy between learning how to drum and how to perform WC falls short for this reason.
> 
> While you may be able to drum alone, you cannot train WC alone and a wooden dummy is no substitute for an actual training partner or teacher.  From my experience, 99% of learning WC comes from partner training.  That is, getting together with someone who can give you correct impulses such that your muscles can learn how to react off of these impulses coming from your training partner.
> 
> ...




Ok, thanks for the insight, although i disagree at some points, obviously. What is correct for my muscles is a proper reaction that will possibly save my life, my health, my dignity, at some unfortunate unwelcome event during my life. That reaction may or may not be a Wing Chun reaction. The end result of that reaction is what will count. Not which martial art will it belong to.

I m not saying there is something wrong with a specific ultra-correct Wing Chun reaction. Again, i m just stating my point of view..


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## 8009 (Oct 23, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> Well, some people who aren't retards still  think punching it like a heavy bag is a good idea, not because they're  stupid but because they don't know any better. And most of the time they  were not self-taught, they were created either by someone who already  had martial experience and passed it down, or by a conglomerate of  people working together to create the style/art/techniques. These people  may or may not have had official experience, but multiple people work  better than one in something like this. In an instance where it was  self-taught by a founder who never had a teacher, the style was either  evolved by the disciples through each generation before it was actually  formidable, or never became a known and formidable art.




So you more or less agree with me when i say that "correctness" depends on who is the judge and jury of it?


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## 8009 (Oct 23, 2012)

J W said:


> I think the reason you aren't getting answers to your original question is that there really is no answer for it. You start by asking for very specific specifications for the dummy, but then say that you have no real interest in learning Wing Chun or any other martial art. It sounds like you don't really need the dummy to help you practice any specific martial art, you just want a cool looking toy for your basement gym. Which is fine, but as was said before, if that is the case then the specs don't matter. Just buy whichever one you like the best.
> 
> 
> I'm sure you didn't mean to come of as disrespectful, but that is the problem with text conversations. Your intended attitude doesn't always come through. Intended or not, you did sound arrogant and disrespectful.
> ...




English is not my mother tongue so maybe this played a role in my sayings being regarded as disrespectful. I just have my own point of view.

I am not judging the experienced members' way of thinking, they obviously reached their level, locked into that way of thinking. I could do that too, its the sure way to go, i am not saying otherwise. I am even jealous of their level, i just don't have the time, etc. to do it. So i just stated my own way of thinking (which may or may not get me far) and asked away hoping to get the answers i want. I maybe will get them, i maybe will not. So be it.

So its true, what i am saying is "i don't think in the mainstream way about martial arts, just would like some certain answers from anyone willing to answer them". If someone desires to be helpful, ok, if not, ok. I ll go my way, either way.

As for the complexity of Wing Chun, i actually have been drawn to this martial art while researching other martial arts for pressure points, "lethal" types of EMERGENCY empty hand self defence (throat-eyes-face,etc) and i saw this close combat martial art and the dummy it uses. It appeared to me to be limited, but effective in close combat, therefore the interest. I now see it uses the center point theory, and a sophisticated way of thinking about blocking, etc. Ok, interesting.


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## 8009 (Oct 23, 2012)

Danny T said:


> 8009,
> 
> Purity??
> No, has nothing to do with purity.
> ...




Why are the arms made the way they are?
Why the arm shanks and the holes square. (it is much easier to drill a round hole vs a square)
 There is movement in the arms, why?
Why are the arms the length they are?
Why are the arms tapered?
Why are the arms angled?
How high are the arms in relation to the practitioner?
What is the distance between the upper arms and the middle arm and the leg?
Why that distance?
Why it the dummy body the diameter it is?



Ok, can i have the full answers to those now?

I m kidding, i understand you re giving me hints. Ok, better than no answer at all i guess.


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## WingChunIan (Oct 23, 2012)

8009, good luck with your search for a dummy. I would honestly suggest that you buy the cheapest one that you can find. The dimensions of the dummy and the feedback (ie springiness) only matter if you intend to study Wing Chun and learn to use the dummy correctly. As your posts state that you intend to do neither the shape, construction and materials etc of the dummy will make no difference. As training tools go the dummy is fairly limited unless you know what you're doing and it will be an expensive coat stand


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## sihing_steve (Oct 23, 2012)

8009 said:


> Ok, thanks for the insight, although i disagree at some points, obviously. What is correct for my muscles is a proper reaction that will possibly save my life, my health, my dignity, at some unfortunate unwelcome event during my life. That reaction may or may not be a Wing Chun reaction. The end result of that reaction is what will count. Not which martial art will it belong to.
> 
> I m not saying there is something wrong with a specific ultra-correct Wing Chun reaction. Again, i m just stating my point of view..



Well stated.  And you are correct, you should not have to put a name on it.

So without a name attached to it, a wooden dummy cannot punch you like a real person can and that is where you learn proper reflexes.

Again, best of luck on your journey.  I think you will do just fine.


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