# Would You Teach Gang Members MA?



## Hawke (Jun 14, 2007)

Greetings All,

If you had the chance to teach kids in known gangs will you?

I have the opportunity to help a man teach MA to people in South Central Los Angeles.  He used to be in a gang, but martial arts opened a new door way for him to get out of that life.  He believes that MA can improve the quality of life and will eventually improve the neighborhood.

Raul Ries had a violent youth.  But in the dojo he was very disciplined and had much respect for Grandmaster Jimmy Woo.  Outside of the dojo he was a very angry kid.  He became so violent that a judge gave him a choice between Vietnam or prison.  After the war he saw Jimmy Woo to continue his training.  Mr. Ries has grown much since then and is now a pastor of a growing church and is known as an experienced san soo fighter and teacher.  Grandmaster Jimmy Woo must have seen something in him back when Raul Ries was 16 to teach a violent youth.

Michael Robert Pick also had a troubled childhood.  Grandmaster Ed Parker taught him American Kenpo.  Outside the studio he was a very angry boy and then became a very angry man.  He also went to Vietnam.  Coming back from the war some hippies threw stuff at him and calling him horrible names and he gave them some serious bruises.  Mike went back to his training with Grandmaster Ed Parker.  Over time Mr. Pick has been able to tame the beast within.  Mr. Pick is known as an extremely excellent Kenpoist and teacher.  He thanks Kenpo in helping his spiritual journey in life.

Mr. X (name intentionally hidden) studies various martial arts, Aikido being one of them.  To this day he seems to have a lot of anger.  

Going back to the original question....would you teach any kid involved in a gang?  Maybe they will turn out like Pastor Raul Ries or Mike Pick.  But what  if they turn out like Mr. X?

I would want to help the community in South Central Los Angeles.  My concern lies with teaching kids martial arts.  Will they respect the art and be able to control their anger?  I am also the only Asian in the group (haven't seen any Asians in that neighborhood).  If things get crazy in that neighborhood we have sticks and knives, but the gangs in the area probably have guns.  I agree with the instructor that MA can improve these kid's lives and open a whole new world for them.

Contemplating and Confused.


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## IcemanSK (Jun 14, 2007)

Hawke said:


> Greetings All,
> 
> If you had the chance to teach kids in known gangs will you?
> 
> ...


 
I would say it depends on a lot of factors. 1) Your level of patience. 2) The plan that you have to teach them. 3) The individuals themselves.

#'s 1 & 2 are closely linked. In #2 I don't mean a lesson plan but more how intentional are you with the discipline in the training hall? What is your reasoning for teaching this or that student? Personally, I'm not sure my teaching style matches that task.


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## tellner (Jun 14, 2007)

It also depends on what you plan to teach them. Military combatives? No way.
Kendo or Olympic TKD? No problem at all.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 15, 2007)

All depends on you, and your personality.  If you talk down to them, or they even think you are, game over.  If they think you are doing it out of pity, or to "smarten then up", you lost them.

Not all gang members are bad people, some just have no where else to go.  Gangs provides a family, safety and a sense of belonging.  If you want to work with people in that life, you need to see the good in the gang structure, not just the bad.

Be friendly, be open, don't judge, don't lecture and don't try to force any sort of artificial respect where it isn't wanted.


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## Last Fearner (Jun 15, 2007)

Hawke said:


> If you had the chance to teach kids in known gangs will you?
> 
> Contemplating and Confused.


 
Absolutely NOT!

While an instructor's intentions might be good, this is a dangerous path to pursue. This does not mean that I will not accept the individual as a "student," but my purpose would be to get them out of that life-style, and on a more productive path. Gangs might provide a sort of "family" and unity for acceptance, and protection among troubled youth, and those who live in dangerous neighborhoods, but I believe it is unwise to feed into that world knowledge that is designed to protect people from the misdeeds perpetrated by those in gangs.

I have dealt with gangs and youth from them for decades. I have no problem with reaching out to them, and giving them the tools to turn their life around, but it must be done in a no-nonsense, non-negotiating, teacher/student approach. Waiting around for half a life-time to see IF the kid gets the message and cleans up his act is a very dangerous game. I don't play games when it comes to teaching Taekwondo.

I will accept the individual as a student under certain requirements. They will not be taught anything more than basic self defense (necessary survival skills to protect themselves) until they quit all association with gang activities. They will not promote in rank, or learn advanced training until the meet every requirement I give them (eg: get in school/stay in school or work toward GED; keep grades improving and maintain good attendance with minimum GPA; No disrespect to parents/legal guardian, teachers or police; No criminal activity, no wearing gang colors, insignia, or flashing gang signs (I have street contacts who keep me informed who is up to what).

I applaud the efforts of an instructor who desires to make a difference in these kids lives, and help them get out of gangs, and off the streets through Martial Art education. However, it is an advanced skill of a teacher's credentials that should not be taken lightly, or attempted without guidance from a senior instructor (Master or Grandmaster) who has done this successfully for many years. Accepting students of questionable character for the purpose of helping them change is a noble thing to do. Maintaining and promoting students who remain in gangs can hurt your reputation as an Instructor in the community. Teaching known gang members how to fight without requiring their dis-association from gang life is foolish, and goes against what I believe is a necessary, unwritten code of conduct for Martial Art instructors.

In many organizations, there are unwritten codes that are just as valuable, and just as true to the core beliefs and purpose of those organizations. If ever there was an unwritten code for the Martial Art, it would be the responsibility of any instructor to pass on the knowledge accurately, completely, and with the philosophy that those who learn it will not misuse the knowledge, or teach it to others without proper training as an instructor, and not without following the same code. Any break-down in this unwritten code, is a break-down in the Martial Art.

This is my perspective, personal and professional opinion. God Bless those ethical Martial Artists who follow the code!  In my opinion, they are the only *true* Martial Artists!

CM D.J. Eisenhart


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## Drac (Jun 15, 2007)

Never!!!!


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## MJS (Jun 15, 2007)

Hawke said:


> Greetings All,
> 
> If you had the chance to teach kids in known gangs will you?
> 
> ...


 
Yes, gangs do give kids that 'family' feel, often because its lacking in their own household.  If they had sincere intentions of giving up that lifestyle, I think that the Martial Arts could give them that 'family feel' as well.  However, if they're going to still be an active part of the gang, use what they're being taught for illegal activity, then absolutely not!  I think it is possible.  Chuck Norris has a program that he runs and it seems pretty successful.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 15, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> All depends on you, and your personality.  If you talk down to them, or they even think you are, game over.  If they think you are doing it out of pity, or to "smarten then up", you lost them.
> 
> Not all gang members are bad people, some just have no where else to go.  Gangs provides a family, safety and a sense of belonging.  If you want to work with people in that life, you need to see the good in the gang structure, not just the bad.
> 
> Be friendly, be open, don't judge, don't lecture and don't try to force any sort of artificial respect where it isn't wanted.



I'm going to start with Andrew's post, because it basically says what I believe.

I should also say up front, I've taught gang members in public school, in a county program--because they must by law be given an education, but no district will touch them; so, we're the end of the line. And I've learned that gang 'members' are very different from 'gangs'. This is because, and I believe it was Vigil (_Barrio Gangs_) who first opened my eyes to this fact, there are three concentric circles of increasing gang involvement: the *wannabe *(often younger, and looking to be cool); the *pal-around*, often just living in the same neighborhood, and so for him or her, ignoring the gang's wishes can be a death sentence, or at least a daily beating (_very _often why people join a gang); the *hard-core* minority, the guys who will maim, kill, and who have little compunction in spending life behind bars--because 'that's where the homies are', and who are often your garden variety sociopaths. These are the ones the media often play up--fear and outrage makes for great ratings.

Now, would I teach a *hard-core* gangster martial arts? Hah! No way. But they're too cool to step foot in my class, anyway. Their thinking is 'That karate stuff doesn't work' (chances are, they're just going to use a weapon, anyway). Would I teach a  *Pal-around*? _Absolutely_. Would, have, and am now, and as a result have seen lives transformed. Yeah, sounds all mushy and touchy-feely, but it's my experience and I'd be remiss in not stating it. These are kids we can 'steal away' from the hard-core, prison-as-career-choice group who just wants to use them, anyway (the hard-core will drop the evidence into a pal-around's bag to set him up for the fall--this is how many get 'caught'). Would I teach the little men, the hangers-on, the *wannabes*? Of course. They haven't yet decided on their future path. I can very possibly guide them into making choices that will help them and society through teaching them martial arts in their critical years of development. Again, have seen this happen over and over.

So I guess for me, it's not an always/never question--or answer. But how often is life ever black and white? :asian:


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## Grenadier (Jun 15, 2007)

Gangs as a whole?  No.  I wouldn't want my dojo being thought of as "Gang X's Hideout," true or not, unless all of the gang decided to repent and give up their ways (not likely).  The last thing I want is some other "Gang Y's Hideout" dojo sending over their challengers ala John Keehan (Count Dante).  

Individuals?  Quite possibly.  The prospective student would be treated as any other student, and must adhere to a code of conduct.  Such a student would also be honestly trying to leave gang life behind him.  If he's honestly trying to better his life, then I will be more than happy to help, and even cut him some slack, if he stumbles.  

However, if all I get is a thug who simply wants to learn how to beat up people, I'll tell him to look elsewhere.  

Some folks do deserve an honest chance at redemption, and if they give it a good try, then they should be supported.  

I will tell you, though, that such folks are going to be in the minority (amongst other gang members).  However, if they can be helped, maybe others can see the example that they set, and perhaps other members seeing "one of their own" making his life better, can be more effective than any number of demonstrations / exhibitions that we put on.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 15, 2007)

No.

Gangs are not psuedofamilies for these kids, they are criminal organizations.  They regularly assault people, rob the neighborhoods of their youth, and act as distribution centers for all sorts of illegal drugs.  Being a gang member is not about being a troubled or angry youth, its about engaging in criminal activity in your neighborhood.  

IMHO, even teaching someone who is on the periphery of involvement in gangs is very dangerous.  I wouldn't do it unless I had a relationship with the kid that I felt was powerful enough to draw him or her out of involvement with that sort of element.

For the past six years, at my previous job, I've had the opportunity to work really closely with lots and lots of tried and true gang members.  We mostly have the Chicago gangs in my area.  Folk and People nations.  My dojang is downtown, right in the middle of GD land and I am not keen on having it turned into a recruitment center.

My advice is to be very selective in who you teach in your neighborhood.  Try and get people while they are young, before they are totally immersed in the criminal mindset.  And if you ever see a student "represent" in any way, KICK THEM OUT!  They are doing it to advertise to others, to show that their affiliation is cool.  

All of this means that you are going to have to learn as much as you can about the gangs in your area.  Try finding some stuff on the internet.  It exists, but also go right to the police for the straight skinny on what is happening.  They'll be more then happy to share that information because they want people to know what these organizations are REALLY about.

Here's a partial list of some California Street Gangs.  We have some of these up in my neck of the woods.  They are involved in running meth up from mexico to get little kids hooked.

****ing bastards.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 15, 2007)

MJS said:


> Yes, gangs do give kids that 'family' feel, often because its lacking in their own household.  If they had sincere intentions of giving up that lifestyle, I think that the Martial Arts could give them that 'family feel' as well.  However, if they're going to still be an active part of the gang, use what they're being taught for illegal activity, then absolutely not!  I think it is possible.  Chuck Norris has a program that he runs and it seems pretty successful.




That's it right there.  They are there because people need to belong to something, and to feel safe.  Gangs provide that.

The more people push them away and reject them because they are in a gang, the more they will feel that need can't be filled by anything but the gang, and the more they will take a us vs them attitude to anyone no in the gang.

Treat people with respect, be open, just watch your back.  Give people another choice and they might take it, refuse them other choices becasue of the one they made to survive and they are stuck forever.


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## terryl965 (Jun 15, 2007)

Active gand members no way, but a individual that has been taken out of the gand enviroment and is trying to get themself together maybe. It would depend on the talk and how it went if I would or not.


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## IcemanSK (Jun 15, 2007)

I watched a news report with a police officer friend a few weeks ago. It was about gang members who went into the military, served in Iraq/Afganistan & were coming home & teaching their buddies how to shoot better. My friend has been an LA County Sheriff for many years. He said he knew this would happen & be a problem. If a person has a mindset not to change, they won't. Even the military won't change that.


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## Mark L (Jun 15, 2007)

Active gang members,no way.  Would you give them a knife, club, or gun?   Teaching them  martial arts is no different than providing any other form of weapon, though it might take a bit longer to learn to use.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 15, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> That's it right there. They are there because people need to belong to something, and to feel safe. Gangs provide that.


 
Andrew - this is actually a minor reason people join gangs.  Even in the worst neighborhoods, there are lots of opportunities to connect with other people and form positive relationships.  The schools and churches have great programs that can offer kids an alternative to gang life.  An alternative that can keep them safe and give them the familial relationships they may be lacking.  

The unfortunate reality is that kids are joining gangs because its cool to be a criminal.  These organizations make no attempt to hide what they are really about.  They sell drugs, they rob steal and murder, and they fight with other gangs over who gets the rights to do that in a particular part of town.  Kids who join gangs think that stuff is cool!  And you do not want kids like that in your dojang.

Theres no reason to be sympathetic to the criminal mindset here.  The kids who join gangs think its cool to be a thug, they want to ride that power trip, and they don't care who gets hurt.  We need to stop making excuses for these kids and hold them accountable for their actions.

They chose to be bad, so they don't get to walk through the door of my dojang.  Plain and simple.


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## zDom (Jun 15, 2007)

Active member? Hell no.

Someone who has turned their back on gangs is looking for a new, improved family and way of life? Absolutely.

The ability to tell the difference between the two? Priceless.


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## Kacey (Jun 15, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> Gangs as a whole? No. I wouldn't want my dojo being thought of as "Gang X's Hideout," true or not, unless all of the gang decided to repent and give up their ways (not likely). The last thing I want is some other "Gang Y's Hideout" dojo sending over their challengers ala John Keehan (Count Dante).
> 
> Individuals? Quite possibly. The prospective student would be treated as any other student, and must adhere to a code of conduct. Such a student would also be honestly trying to leave gang life behind him. If he's honestly trying to better his life, then I will be more than happy to help, and even cut him some slack, if he stumbles.
> 
> ...


 
Grenadier covered most of what I was going to say, although several others also addressed points of my opinion.  There is no way to give a simple, absolute answer to this question.  Would I go out of my way to look for a gang to teach TKD to, in the hopes it would change their ways?  No.  Would I teach individual members?  It depends on their circumstances.  I've had students with a wide range of backgrounds and issues, and I've never turned one down - but neither have I had a gang member come to my class, openly identify him/herself as such, and ask to be admitted.  I would have to take such things on a case-by-case basis.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 15, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Andrew - this is actually a minor reason people join gangs. Even in the worst neighborhoods, there are lots of opportunities to connect with other people and form positive relationships. The schools and churches have great programs that can offer kids an alternative to gang life. An alternative that can keep them safe and give them the familial relationships they may be lacking.


I have to respectfully disagree. Some churches may have programs, but there may be strings attached that are unpalatable to the kids or their families (may be a different religion, and have strong beliefs). Or, there may just not be any church programs in some neighborhoods. Gangs can change from block to block. As for schools, having worked in schools embedded in gang territory for 18 years, I must say that the programs are very sparse, and not very effective. Lots of talking at kids, not much real help.



> The unfortunate reality is that kids are joining gangs because its cool to be a criminal... Kids who join gangs think that stuff is cool! And you do not want kids like that in your dojang.
> Theres no reason to be sympathetic to the criminal mindset here. The kids who join gangs think its cool to be a thug, they want to ride that power trip, and they don't care who gets hurt. We need to stop making excuses for these kids and hold them accountable for their actions.


This is true of _some_, but definitely not all. Just have to use your best judgment. I would say, if a MA instructor is unsure, then by all means take a pass.



> They chose to be bad, so they don't get to walk through the door of my dojang. Plain and simple.


 As I said, I respect your decision. But can't agree with some of the sweeping generalizations made of all kids affiliated with gangs.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 15, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Andrew - this is actually a minor reason people join gangs.  Even in the worst neighborhoods, there are lots of opportunities to connect with other people and form positive relationships.  The schools and churches have great programs that can offer kids an alternative to gang life.  An alternative that can keep them safe and give them the familial relationships they may be lacking.



Church programs as an example, are not a option for all.  Not everyone is religious, and often people in bad places have had bad experiences with churches.

Consider Native Americans that went through residential schools, there could be some serious distrust for the church there.

It is also not a "independent" environment.  They become dependent on a system, a system that is often, in there eyes at least, responsible for there situation.

Sorry, but just because someone sets up a group doesn't make it a "real" alternative.  The wrong strings being attached, or even the wrong face in the background can very easily make those "options" into non-options.

So yes, they "could" perhaps go to the soup kitchen and hope some smiling volunteer has food for them that day, or they could join a gang, made up of there peers, not a bunch of middle class white folk helping the poor one day a week to feel good about themselves.  The gang will provide real community, protection, support and belonging.  It is run by people like them and sticks its finger up at the folks they feel put them in the gutter in the first place.

Things are not that black and white to be able to say people choose gangs only because they are criminal.  To me that sounds like saying the Americans wouldn't have kicked the British out if the British had built some community centers.  Or the French revolution wouldn't have happened if the aristocrats had put up a few baseball diamonds.

The difference is scale and perspective.  People that join gangs feel society has turned them away, and they have no place else to go.  Many of those programs put in will seem more like insults then alternatives.

Are they right?  I don't think so, but I'm not from that background. 

A lot of gangs also tend to get there starts in prisons.  It is a matter of protection, "We're all similar in X way, so we protect each other rather then standing individually"  No church program is going to fill that need.


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## Bigshadow (Jun 15, 2007)

No I wouldn't.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 15, 2007)

Yes; It all comes down to, "Do you feel these Kids are worth saving and do you feel that a discipline will help?"
Sean


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## Makalakumu (Jun 15, 2007)

I certainly don't have all of the answers, but after six years of working with kids who have joined gangs or are interested in gangs, I think I've been able to glean a little general information.

The thought that kids join gangs because they need fellowship and security may have been true in the past, but I don't think its a major driving force now.  According to the Head of the MN gang taskforce the fastest growing gang population is among suburban teens.  In schools that never had gang problems and are affluent, we are suddenly seeing active recruiting going on.

It's not because these kids lack for opportunity, fellowship or security...something else IS going on.

In my own community, we have at least half a dozen non-religious non profit organizations with well funded, well staffed, and well organized youth programs designed to designed to give kids an alternative to gangs.  Yet they still join these organizations.  

And like I said before, these are criminal organizations.  They make no effort to hide what they do.  In fact, they flaunt it to those they are recruiting.

All of this begs the questions, if there are so many other options available now, why are kids still choosing to be in gangs?

Answering this question is as simple as talking to a gang member and asking them a question.  "Hey Lovell, why ya rollin wit GD and not hangin out at Lifehouse?  Ya might stay outa jail that way..."

The answer is that people in the hood respect thugs.  They think they are cool.  Gangsters are role models.  Doing the right thing by hanging out at Lifehouse doesn't give a person as much respect as being a criminal.


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## Drac (Jun 15, 2007)

I wish I could post the page (of a 200 pg book) taken off a POS "gangsta" in Calf my Narc officers..It is a system of hand-to-hand combat that they learn to use against LEO..The drawings all show the cop as fat , overweight and wearing swastikas..While the perps all look like stunt doubles Westley Snipes or Denzel Washington..


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## Ceicei (Jun 15, 2007)

Drac said:


> I wish I could post the page (of a 200 pg book) taken off a POS "gangsta" in Calf my Narc officers..It is a system of hand-to-hand combat that they learn to use against LEO..The drawings all show the cop as fat , overweight and wearing swastikas..While the perps all look like stunt doubles Westley Snipes or Denzel Washington..




That says a lot how they *hope* things would be like...


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## Drac (Jun 15, 2007)

Ceicei said:


> That says a lot how they *hope* things would be like...


 
Sad but true....


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## Brother John (Jun 15, 2007)

VERY VERY good topic!!!


I work with Gang-members in my career as a Juvenile Correctional officer.
I'd ONLY be their instructor IF they demonstrate an effort to leave gang life/mentality!! I'd have to be given written permission to visit their PO...and things like that.

thats rare, but it's the ONLY 
ONLY way I'd do it. BUT I'D DO IT IN A HEART BEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those are my brothers! I have a real heart for those boys/young men. That's WHY I do what I do! If me and my Kenpo school could play a role in helping them change their mentality and their life...
I'd do it and do WHATEVER it took to keep them there and make them feel at home, accepted, appreciated and useful/successful!!!!!!

First sign that they're still "bangin"...and they refuse to quit......
_*Out like a dirty diaper.
*_
Your Brother
John


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 15, 2007)

When I lived in Southern Calif. I had a couple of known gang members ask me to teach them.  One wanted out of the gangs and said he wanted the discipline and some extra knowledge.  The other had left the gangs and wanted to put his energy somewhere and to learn to control his more violent tendencies.  I taught both of them. Both stayed away from the gangs, but one did get killed in a drive by because of where he lived.

It depends on why they want to learn and if i know them personally.
There have been some who asked that I said NO to


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## MJS (Jun 15, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Andrew - this is actually a minor reason people join gangs. Even in the worst neighborhoods, there are lots of opportunities to connect with other people and form positive relationships. The schools and churches have great programs that can offer kids an alternative to gang life. An alternative that can keep them safe and give them the familial relationships they may be lacking.
> 
> The unfortunate reality is that kids are joining gangs because its cool to be a criminal. These organizations make no attempt to hide what they are really about. They sell drugs, they rob steal and murder, and they fight with other gangs over who gets the rights to do that in a particular part of town. Kids who join gangs think that stuff is cool! And you do not want kids like that in your dojang.
> 
> ...


 
But do kids need to join a gang to steal a car, mug someone or shoplift?  Values, morals, etc., start at the home.  If someone isn't feeling loved, etc., the kid is going to look elsewhere for that 'family' feel, and a gang is where they'll find it.  Sure there are other options, but someone has to show them the way.


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## Brother John (Jun 15, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> No I wouldn't.



care to elaborate further?

Your Brother
John


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## jks9199 (Jun 15, 2007)

Why kids or adults join gangs is a very complicated issue, and there are multiple facets.  Some do join for cameraderie and fellowship.  Others join for the excitement of the thug lifestyle, while others join for the money they think they'll be able to get as a member, or for protection against other gangs... or even just because.

It's certainly no help that society is currently glorifying the thug/gang lifestyle -- but gangs existed and flourished without that.  I've got stacks of books on gangs; even the so-called experts (some cops, some academics, all with varying degrees of real knowledge and "ivory tower" knowledge) can't agree on why people join gangs.  The simple truth is that people instinctively join groups, as a general rule.  I don't know why; maybe a sociologist can tell you.  But we do it.  We've done it here on MT; we've done it other places. 

Then -- consider that, while there is a national and international aspect, gangs remain a highly localized phenomena, as well.  The "rules" for West Coast bangers aren't the same as Chicago gangs, which are different from East Coast gangs.  Even on the East Coast, we see different things in Maryland and Virginia, and New York, and so till you're bored naming states.  It's even different on a local level; drive 20 miles, and the rules can change.  What we see in Northern VA is not the same as what cops in Virginia Beach see.

But, at heart, banging is more than just hanging around with a group of like minded individuals.  There is a definable mind set and world view.  It's quite comparable to religion, and it's as hard to really change.

So... would I teach a banger?  I can't imagine the circumstances where I would knowingly instruct a banger.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 15, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> When I lived in Southern Calif. I had a couple of known gang members ask me to teach them.
> I taught both of them. Both stayed away from the gangs, but one did get killed in a drive by because of where he lived.
> 
> It depends on why they want to learn and if i know them personally.
> There have been some who asked that I said NO to


Good point, *tshadowchaser*. For me, also, it's a very personal, case by case proposition. And the ones who don't do it my way (including showing some humility and humanity) don't last long.



			
				Brother John said:
			
		

> I'd ONLY be their instructor IF they demonstrate an effort to leave gang life/mentality!! I'd have to be given written permission to visit their PO...and things like that.


Also a good point, *Brother*, and something I realize I took for granted in earlier posts. I've gotten to know all the guys I teach before we ever started, and have their PO's cards in my file. Never had to call one for one of the Kempo boys, tho.



			
				Brother John said:
			
		

> BUT I'D DO IT IN A HEART BEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those are my brothers! I have a real heart for those boys/young men. That's WHY I do what I do! If me and my Kenpo school could play a role in helping them change their mentality and their life...





			
				MJS said:
			
		

> But do kids need to join a gang to steal a car, mug someone or shoplift? Values, morals, etc., start at the home. If someone isn't feeling loved, etc., the kid is going to look elsewhere for that 'family' feel, and a gang is where they'll find it. Sure there are other options, but someone has to show them the way.



Both these quotes show heart imho. Teaching MA to a kid with a problematic past is a risk, yes, but a calculated risk, and when you're talking about kids, one that can carry a huge reward.



			
				Drac said:
			
		

> I wish I could post the page (of a 200 pg book) taken off a POS "gangsta" in Calf my Narc officers..It is a system of hand-to-hand combat that they learn to use against LEO..The drawings all show the cop as fat , overweight and wearing swastikas..While the perps all look like stunt doubles Westley Snipes or Denzel Washington..


 Obviously no one on this board ever wants to see any harm come to LE, CO, teachers of adjudicated kids, or the general public. And I personally would never take on a MA student that I doubted would do the right thing/change for the better along the MA path (or if I did later regret it, would turn up the heat--if they're for real, they'll take it; if not, they're gone). There's a big difference in California between adult and juvenile gangs, and gang members. *Drac*, I'm wondering if the book you're talking about was more for use by adult gangsters, who are basically career criminals? For one thing, the juvenile bangers I've known (and the number is legion :uhyeah wouldn't have near the discipline to learn anything that complicated. Just bring this up because I and probably some others are only speaking of juveniles. Adult gangsters I would _never _touch.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 15, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Then -- consider that, while there is a national and international aspect, gangs remain a highly localized phenomena, as well.  The "rules" for West Coast bangers aren't the same as Chicago gangs, which are different from East Coast gangs.  Even on the East Coast, we see different things in Maryland and Virginia, and New York, and so till you're bored naming states.  It's even different on a local level; drive 20 miles, and the rules can change.  What we see in Northern VA is not the same as what cops in Virginia Beach see.



Forgot to include this in my prior post, though I had thought to: *jks *makes an important point. Even while having this discussion, we may all have a different picture in mind of what it would mean to 'Teach gang members MA', and who exactly we would really be teaching.


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## searcher (Jun 15, 2007)

It would be a difficult decision.   My biggest concerns is for that of my other students either through there recruitment or through retribution on the gang members while they are at my school.

I ahve been fortunate enough to not have to make this decision.   The worst I have to deal with is the occasional goth.


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## Brother John (Jun 15, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Why kids or adults join gangs is a very complicated issue, and there are multiple facets.  Some do join for cameraderie and fellowship.  Others join for the excitement of the thug lifestyle, while others join for the money they think they'll be able to get as a member, or for protection against other gangs... or even just because.
> 
> and it's as hard to really change.
> .


There are a MULTITUDE of real reasons why they join!! and it IS extremely complicated!!
...and you're right
REALLY hard to change.

very sad
I've been to FAR too many funerals and court-trials!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your Brother
John


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## Bigshadow (Jun 16, 2007)

Brother John said:


> care to elaborate further?
> 
> Your Brother
> John



First I believe the OP was referring to street gangs which are commonly associated with crime and often VIOLENT crime.  For obvious reasons, I would not knowingly teach someone who is part of the criminal element.  I don't believe what I have to offer should be taught to those who are part of the criminal element, it is also against our guidelines.  

I hear about those who's lives were turned around by martial arts, but I am not so sure the martial arts actually turned their lives around or merely provided enough distraction to get them away from crime.  Then there are those who are criminals and actually train in martial arts (I don't know any personally but I am sure they are out there).   I would rather them get their lives straightened out BEFORE coming to me for training and then I might consider it, based on how I feel about their sincerity and honesty.


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## Drac (Jun 16, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Obviously no one on this board ever wants to see any harm come to LE, CO, teachers of adjudicated kids, or the general public. And I personally would never take on a MA student that I doubted would do the right thing/change for the better along the MA path (or if I did later regret it, would turn up the heat--if they're for real, they'll take it; if not, they're gone). There's a big difference in California between adult and juvenile gangs, and gang members. *Drac*, I'm wondering if the book you're talking about was more for use by adult gangsters, who are basically career criminals? For one thing, the juvenile bangers I've known (and the number is legion :uhyeah wouldn't have near the discipline to learn anything that complicated. Just bring this up because I and probably some others are only speaking of juveniles. Adult gangsters I would _never _touch.


 
Unsure about that...I believe the officer that put that info sheet for us together said it was "juvies"..NEVER underestimate these punk kids..To learn a new skill to put a hurting on "po-po" they'll invest the time..I


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## LawDog (Jun 16, 2007)

Actually they are the ones who should be teaching.


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## Drac (Jun 16, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Actually they should be teaching many martial arts instructors.


 
True..


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## Makalakumu (Jun 16, 2007)

Drac said:


> Unsure about that...I believe the officer that put that info sheet for us together said it was "juvies"..NEVER underestimate these punk kids..To learn a new skill to put a hurting on "po-po" they'll invest the time..I


 
When the OP was referring to gangs and kids, he was referring to a time decades ago.  Individuals like Mike Pick and the rest that he referred to came from a different time.  Now, I think that gangs are different.  I get the feeling that they are more violent and more willing then ever to do crime.  Also, it seems like the organizations are a lot tighter and far reaching then ever before.  

I agree with what Drac is saying, how can you really trust that they are out?  How can you really know that you are not being had?  Bangers these days lie as much as most people breath.  They'll do whatever they feel they need to do to get what they want.  And I think the story about the guy who joined the military and then brought the marksmenship training back to his homies is a great illustration of this.

It would take a lot for me to accept an "ex-banger" and even then it would take even longer for them to gain my trust.  These guys can be nice to your face one minute and stab you in the back in the next without even a blink.


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## Drac (Jun 16, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> When the OP was referring to gangs and kids, he was referring to a time decades ago. Individuals like Mike Pick and the rest that he referred to came from a different time. Now, I think that gangs are different. I get the feeling that they are more violent and more willing then ever to do crime. Also, it seems like the organizations are a lot tighter and far reaching then ever before.
> 
> I agree with what Drac is saying, how can you really trust that they are out? How can you really know that you are not being had? Bangers these days lie as much as most people breath. They'll do whatever they feel they need to do to get what they want. And I think the story about the guy who joined the military and then brought the marksmenship training back to his homies is a great illustration of this.
> 
> It would take a lot for me to accept an "ex-banger" and even then it would take even longer for them to gain my trust. These guys can be nice to your face one minute and stab you in the back in the next without even a blink.


 
Well said..They did an interview on HBO with "bangers" already doing time for a serious crime..When they asked one of them what he'll do when he get out his answer was "Whatever it takes to get back on top"..If you get in my way , you get put down...This person was 19..


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## jks9199 (Jun 16, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Obviously no one on this board ever wants to see any harm come to LE, CO, teachers of adjudicated kids, or the general public. And I personally would never take on a MA student that I doubted would do the right thing/change for the better along the MA path (or if I did later regret it, would turn up the heat--if they're for real, they'll take it; if not, they're gone). There's a big difference in California between adult and juvenile gangs, and gang members. *Drac*, I'm wondering if the book you're talking about was more for use by adult gangsters, who are basically career criminals? For one thing, the juvenile bangers I've known (and the number is legion :uhyeah wouldn't have near the discipline to learn anything that complicated. Just bring this up because I and probably some others are only speaking of juveniles. Adult gangsters I would _never _touch.


 
No -- bangers are bangers.  Juvie bangers are every bit as bad as the adults, and can be worse, because, like Avis, they try harder.  Some juvies are merely imitating what they see from TV, movies, hip-hop culture, and other sources, and others are just getting involved, and intervention can work -- but I've seen more cases where intervention efforts just delayed things a few years, at best.  

Many of the gangs do have a definite level of national organization, even if they don't exert day-to-day or operational control, especially those with ties to prison gangs or leaders who are incarcerated.  Larry Hoover still has strong control over the Gangster Disciples, for example.  La Eme exerts frightening power and control over many Latino street gangs, even though La Eme is a prison gang.



Drac said:


> Unsure about that...I believe the officer that put that info sheet for us together said it was "juvies"..NEVER underestimate these punk kids..To learn a new skill to put a hurting on "po-po" they'll invest the time..I


 
Ditto!  As I said -- the juvies are every bit as bad as the adults.  Or worse.  In one jurisdiction that I'm familiar with, they expect to waive juvies into adult court on gang charges, and it's an exception when they don't do so.



upnorthkyosa said:


> When the OP was referring to gangs and kids, he was referring to a time decades ago. Individuals like Mike Pick and the rest that he referred to came from a different time. Now, I think that gangs are different. I get the feeling that they are more violent and more willing then ever to do crime. Also, it seems like the organizations are a lot tighter and far reaching then ever before.


 
Criminal street gangs have evolved, in response to many factors both in and among the gangs and in society.  More have become national or international in scope.  They've spread to places once assumed to be "safe" because they were too rural, or too suburban, or not ethnic enough...  Ironically, part of what's happened is that parents have moved their families to get kids out of the gangs, and the kids have brought the gangs with them.  I'm far from a gang expert; I just work with guys that really are experts.  The one rule we have is that gangs are constantly changing.  What was true yesterday may not be true today.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 16, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> No -- bangers are bangers. Juvie bangers are every bit as bad as the adults, and can be worse, because, like Avis, they try harder.


Well, you say No, I say Yes, at least in my geographical area and in my experience. Guess we'll just disagree on this point. :asian:

To clarify why I think there's a difference, I would point back to my first post in this thread (#8), that some experts delimit three levels of involvement. Now if it's a hard-core, initiated member, then I would agree with you: age is irrelevant. And adult gangsters don't have any outer-level of involvement: you're in or out. 




> I'm far from a gang expert; I just work with guys that really are experts.


I'm far from an expert, also. All I have is my own experience--roughly two decades of working with juvenile gangsters. And have read a few books, and am a statewide trainer of trainers in CA, but those things don't mean all that much.


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## Last Fearner (Jun 17, 2007)

From the original post:



Hawke said:


> If you had the chance to teach *kids* in known gangs will you?
> 
> I have the opportunity to help a man teach MA to people in South Central Los Angeles. He used to be in a gang, but martial arts opened a new door way for him to get out of that life. *He believes that MA can improve the quality of life and will eventually improve the neighborhood*.


I believe that MA can improve the quality of life for those who are taught correctly, and a well run program can improve the neighborhood.  What I caution about those who are thinking about helping "kids" to straighten their lives out when they are currently, or might be considering involvement in gangs is that you don't take it lightly.  To think, "I'm a good instructor, so I can handle turning these kids' lives around," is a big assumption.  This kind of specialized work requires a special education in dealing with gangs.

For a Martial Art program to have a positive impact on the community, and to extract kids from the gang and the gang's influence, an instructor really needs to have a personal, in-depth relationship with the people of the community, the residents of the neighborhoods, and to know most of the bangers and the gang leaders by name and face recognition.  If you are too removed from the community and the gangs, yet you believe you are going to make a difference by teaching a few kids the Martial Art, you might be contributing more to the problem then actually doing any good.  If you are interested in pursuing this line of work - - GET SOME ADDITIONAL TRAINING AND EDUCATION!!!



kidswarrior said:


> I believe it was Vigil (_Barrio Gangs_) who first opened my eyes to this fact, there are three concentric circles of increasing gang involvement: the *wannabe *(often younger, and looking to be cool); the *pal-around*, often just living in the same neighborhood, and so for him or her, ignoring the gang's wishes can be a death sentence, or at least a daily beating (_very _often why people join a gang); the *hard-core* minority, the guys who will maim, kill, and who have little compunction in spending life behind bars


These are good points to consider.  There have always been the kind of friendly buddies who hang out with each other.  They go places together, stick up for one another, and cover each other's backs.  They say to their mom, "I'm going to be out with the *gang* tonight.  This is not the kind of "gang" members we need to be talking about here.  If these guys get into any trouble, its mostly misdemeanor stuff, and juvenile pranks.  They need Martial Art training just to keep their values straight.

The "wannabe" gang member is in a precarious, and dangerous time of their life.  If they get the right positive influences, they might avoid going deeper into an adult life of crime and gang affiliation.  Martial Art training can help here, but this is where the instructor really needs specialized education.  These "wannabes" can easily be influenced by the more hard core bangers, and might commit a more serious felony at the drop of a hat.  These are the ones who are often trusted by society because it is not clear they are into gang activity, and a Martial Art instructor might just be feeding the knowledge that they will in turn take to their homies to practice for fighting against rival gangs, police, victims of crimes, or to just be top dog in their own gang.

The BEST rule here is that you must have a handle on what's going on in this kids life 24/7.  If they are not willing to break all gang ties in agreement to being your student, then they are not ready, and can not be trusted.  You don't have to abandon them, though.  Keep the "door open" for an alternative opportunity for success, but don't cross the line to teach them in *hopes* they will someday leave the gang because of the MA influence.  If they are on the edge of gang involvement, or are seriously asking for help to get out, then bring them in for discipline training, character building, philosophy of life kind influence until they prove they are not involved in gang activities.​ 


Bigshadow said:


> Then there are those who are criminals and actually train in martial arts (I don't know any personally but I am sure they are out there).


Yes, they do exist.  It might vary from state to state, and city to city, but my belief is that most gangs have some kind of organized practice on how to fight in the street.  Some of it is crude, street-fighting tactics while others have more structured Martial Art classes.  There is often one or more members of each gang who have had some Martial Art training (often a rogue Black Belt or two) who will instruct the rest of the gang.  Remember, they want their gang to be the toughest in their area.  They work with weapons (knives, bats, tire irons, 2x4s, guns, and unarmed combat)  I have seen gang members visiting indoor firing ranges to get more practice at shooting.



upnorthkyosa said:


> I think the story about the guy who joined the military and then brought the marksmenship training back to his homies is a great illustration of this.


This is a great illustration, and one that raises great concern in my mind.  Many soldiers come out of the service (especially after live combat) more messed up than when they went in.  If life doesn't pan out for them post-enlistment, they are just as likely to turn to crime and gangs as anyone else under hardship conditions, and then they have the added skills of military combat to add into the mix.  The military can straighten out the lives of many mixed up people, but it often does not stick forever in many.

This is why I have a major opposition with those who simply label "Martial Art" as "Combat training" or the "art of fighting."  Soldiers get that, and might still end up messed up (even with strict discipline).  I think most military training (and speaking from experience in the U.S. military) has come a long way on this issue, but it has a long way to go.  The Martial Art *should* be different in that our first concern is to mold the individual's character, and be certain that they are prepared to handle the responsibility of this deadly knowledge.  This modern day attitude of generation X, etc, that Martial Art is all about fighting, and the best fighter is the best Martial Artist is a bunch of ignorant nonsense (in my professional opinion)!  If a student graduates to Black Belt, and doesn't have their head screwed on straight, or their ethical priorities set, then the instructor has failed!

The *hard core* gang member should not be accepted as a student because they do not possess the character traits that perpetuate a positive evolution of Martial Art instruction, and proper, ethical use of this knowledge.  I'm of the school of thought that Martial Art knowledge is for the righteous and the innocent to protect themselves, while "fighting" and "street combat" is for the hoodlums, gang-bangers, and criminal element.  Keep the Martial Art always to be more successful, superior in knowledge and skill than any form of street combat and the righteous will prevail.



Hawke said:


> Going back to the original question....would you teach any kid involved in a gang? Maybe they will turn out like Pastor Raul Ries or Mike Pick. But what if they turn out like Mr. X?
> 
> I would want to help the community in South Central Los Angeles. My concern lies with teaching kids martial arts. *Will they respect the art and be able to control their anger? *


This can only be answered on a case-by-case consideration.  They will respect the art, if they respect the teacher and the teacher instills the lessons of value for Martial Art education, as well as moral and ethical behavior in their every day life.  Also, remember this, you are not teaching them to "control their anger."  You are teaching them not to be angry!  There is an important difference.  If they respect you, they will leave the gang life, and cease to commit crimes.  If they refuse to leave the gang life completely, then they are not ready for what you have to offer them.  Keep in touch with them, and keep influencing them until they are.

*Associate yourself with men of good quality if you esteem your own 
reputation; for 'tis better to be alone than in bad company. 
- George Washington*

*I am not bound to win, but I am bound to be true.  I am not bound to succeed, but I am bound to live by the light that I have.  I must stand with anybody that stands right, and stand with him while he is right, and part with him when he goes wrong.*
*- Abraham Lincoln*


CM D.J. Eisenhart


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## Hawke (Jun 17, 2007)

Greetings and Salutations!

Thank you for your response.  There are many caring and knowledeable people on this forum.

I had a talk with the instructor at the park.  He knows the leaders of the local gangs.  He has veteran students of his come out to help with the lessons.  These are really nice guys, they are HUGE, but really nice.

He is willing to teach people that have a sincere interest to learn the art.  Also the live African drumming makes the practice more enjoyable.

I wish I could post pics. hehe

Many Thanks,
Stephen


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## mjd (Jun 17, 2007)

That's a hard question, that raises numerous questions.

If you do teach them and they continue their gang ways, what have you created?

Are the people around them in the community safer?

I would like to think MA could change these people, but it will take a speacial person to accomplish this, a very special person, not just a MA instructor but a motovator of people.

Something to think about.


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## Drac (Jun 17, 2007)

mjd said:


> That's a hard question, that raises numerous questions.
> 
> If you do teach them and they continue their gang ways, what have you created?


 
An even more violent breed of criminal.. 



			
				mjd said:
			
		

> Are the people around them in the community safer?


 
No!



			
				mjd said:
			
		

> I would like to think MA could change these people, but it will take a speacial person to accomplish this, a very special person, not just a MA instructor but a motovator of people


 
It's a nice thought, but the ONLY person that can turn a wasted life around is themselves..They must WANT to do it..All the community outreach programs in the world manned the the positive people you could imagine will be unable to change someone that does NOT to change..


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## Indie12 (Apr 18, 2011)

tellner said:


> It also depends on what you plan to teach them. Military combatives? No way.
> Kendo or Olympic TKD? No problem at all.


 
Why would you NOT teach them military combatives, or MCMAP, but still teach them Kendo or Olympic TKD? Kendo or Olympic TKD are still WEAPONS, even if there used for more Sport purposes!!

Also, I will add that even Military Combatives can still be used in Sport settings. (Example: Army Combative Competition and Tournaments, or MCMAP cage fights)

Just because it's military, doesn't mean it's 100% combat effective!

Background Checks help to eliminate some of the gang members from becoming members of the Martial Arts community. (Although Background Checks are NOT fool-proof!)
Otherwise, I say why give a gang member another weapon to use against innocent people? For Sport use or Combat Use?


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## tenzen (Apr 18, 2011)

I would say teach them. You stated that they are kids which means its not too late for you to have a positive influence on them. Most of these kids join gangs because they need guidance and a role model, even if its not a good one. They are lost and most have either one or both parents absent.
I was involved in gangs when I was younger, my sister and I lived with our mom and things weren't great. I got in with the gangs because I thought it was coolit was a place for me, I belonged to something. I already had experience with martial arts because both of my parents were martial artists and had taught me from the time I could walk. But I didn't really understand it. My parents split. And we moved across the country. It was hard on me. As I got older because of martial arts and nothing else I got away from these things. I found what I liked to do and I couldn't get in trouble for it. I met a lot of people who influenced my life in a poistive way. All from martial arts. So I think you should teach them, give them a chance. If you cast them away like everyone else your creating a future criminal.


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## Balrog (Apr 18, 2011)

Last Fearner said:


> I will accept the individual as a student under certain requirements. They will not be taught anything more than basic self defense (necessary survival skills to protect themselves) until they quit all association with gang activities. They will not promote in rank, or learn advanced training until the meet every requirement I give them (eg: get in school/stay in school or work toward GED; keep grades improving and maintain good attendance with minimum GPA; No disrespect to parents/legal guardian, teachers or police; No criminal activity, no wearing gang colors, insignia, or flashing gang signs (I have street contacts who keep me informed who is up to what).


This.

Keeping in mind that if I teach someone Taekwondo and they go out on the street and use it on someone, I'm the one who will be sued....

They would have to earn the right to learn, and I would be straight up front with them.  Actions have consequences; their actions so far have not given me any reason to trust them.  They will have to earn that trust.  And like Last Fearner said, they'll get a very specific list of things they will have to accomplish to do that.  First and foremost on that list: get away from the gangs.  Period.


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## tenzen (Apr 18, 2011)

Ok so this thread can be ended everyone needs to go watch only the strong.
Everyone deserves a chance we just have to use the correct judgement on what they learn and when.
You could be saving those kids lives and in turn saving someone elses.


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## ATACX GYM (Apr 19, 2011)

I have been traning gang members for 14 years without incident.Some were adults.I live in LONG BEACH CA and I've seen some hairy stuff.I use a combo of what tenzen and Last Fearner use but I make it a point to address their anger issues in class WITH SPARRING AND SPARRING EQUIPMENT.Yes...I have these sometimes very angry young men work their anger out sparring most of the time with me but sometimes with my other students.The results are always eye opening for the ganxta,as they have NEVER made it out of the 2nd round with any of my students and they fare far worse with me.

I've even trained adult ganxtas.These men and women have already heard of me and my methods so nobody wilds out on the mat,and since everyone knows I'm from the hood myself and live here? Nobody doubts that I'll show them something inapplicable.Gun disarms I've shown them.Knife stick and other disarms I show them.I don't accept everyone into my class,I've dealt with people who've gotten angry quite successfully; I've become a "triple O.G." insofar as the respect that ganxtas--even of rival gangs and different races--are concerned.

And I've had dozens of ex and current ganxtas come up to me and say I've saved their lives with the example I've shown them,the techniques I taught them,and the fact that I don't leave the hood.Many younger brothers and sisters have decided to NOT become ganxtas as they watched their older siblings transform under my tutelage,and maaany parents have gushed effusive thanks to me regarding the teaching that I have given them...including the academic tutoring that I offer (I'm pursuing my Master's and Ph.d.)


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## shima (May 1, 2011)

I've never had the chance since thankfully I've generally lived in nicer areas, but I would certainly teach them if ever given the chance. The self defense aspect is by far the most important because that's the type of training that can and most likely will save their lives later. Also if you keep with it I imagine you'd change their perspective and be able to convert a few out of that lifestyle when you show them their stress and anger can have a productive non criminal output in life. I think it would be a great challenge and would welcome such an opportunity if it ever came my way.


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## ATACX GYM (May 1, 2011)

shima said:


> I've never had the chance since thankfully I've generally lived in nicer areas, but I would certainly teach them if ever given the chance. The self defense aspect is by far the most important because that's the type of training that can and most likely will save their lives later. Also if you keep with it I imagine you'd change their perspective and be able to convert a few out of that lifestyle when you show them their stress and anger can have a productive non criminal output in life. I think it would be a great challenge and would welcome such an opportunity if it ever came my way.


 


Without any doubt,the effectiveness and character building aspects of martial arts self defense training has a significantly salutory effect on most of the ganxtas I've trained and spent time with.Almost all of them have subsequently left their ganxta lifestyles.I recall some "triple O.G.'s" from 20's,and I.C.G. (Insane Crip Gang),ESL (East Side Longos,a Latino gang) coming up to me and CONGRATULATING AND THANKING ME for my help and my influence even though over the last 14-15 years I've contributed to EACH gang losing about 140-150 kids and about half that many adults.I train on average 10 ganxtas--of each of the rival gangs--every Spring and Summer.Even though I've never trained anyone from their set,the Cambodian gangs respect me too.They've seen me do Khmer kickboxing and they know I'm good at it; I've sparred and fought some of their best and decisively beaten all of them within the first round in the ring and in seconds outside of the ring (pesky gloves slow me down a taste and reduce my arsenal ALOT).

It's very good to see your post,Shima!


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## Thesemindz (May 1, 2011)

To be honest I never ask what my students do for a living. I mean, sometimes it comes up in conversation but that's not really why I'm there. The way place only has enough room for karate. As long as the students shower regularly and show everyone respect when they are in the dojo, I don't care what they do in their free time. Here we do karate. Nothing else. If they can't be clean or respectful though, they aren't welcome in my classes.

I teach police and military and other government employees. I teach civilians, women and children. I teach the elderly and the disabled. I'm sure I've taught criminals too. And bullies. I believe we're better for every time we dressed out and stepped on the training floor. Even the worst of us. Martial arts teaches respect, although admittedly some refuse to learn. That's humans for you.

I don't want to do mission work right now, so I wouldn't look out for an opportunity like that; but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the idea. If you're intentions are pure you may succeed. But you will only be able to lead by example.

Good luck.


-Rob


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## threethirty (May 3, 2011)

If you have to ask then, no. You sound fairly distrustful of the neighborhood already and having gangsters in there could only make that worse. Don't ever teach someone you are uncomfortable teaching.

Sifu says that if he wouldnt put a loaded gun in your hand and turn his back to you then he is not going to teach you to be that weapon.


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## Josh Oakley (May 3, 2011)

I haven't taught actual gansters, but I've taught bullies, and kids who get into bad trouble. I've taught kids who are into drugs. And I've seen great results from those experiences (though they drain your energy quite a bit). Based on these experiences I'd teach a gangster.

Empowering a kid to be able to trust in themselves seems to diminish negative activities. The thing to remember is that if you're a good martial arts instructor, you're not just teaching them combat.


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## ATACX GYM (May 3, 2011)

I believe I understand both threethirty AND Josh's perspectives.My response to threethirty is: I see wisdom in your Sifu's words.However,in my experience,THE PROCESS OF TRAINING a person tells all that I need to know about them.If they had a violent,short temper coming in but during sparring they eventually learn to direct control and discipline themselves (this is THE NUMBER ONE challenge that I have faced regarding training "ganxtas",the other is overcoming their consistent defiance; I've found a very simple and highly effective method of doing both at the same time without dissing them so bad that they lose too much face)? If they learn to show restraint in class,learn particularly to increase their flexibility,their endurance,and do the kicks,rolls,katas? You will see them grow and blossom in ways that they never knew they could.They become intrigued and invested almost despite themselves.

And they ask at first the most hilarious questions,which morph into REAL questions as time passes.I've been asked by a ganxta who was dead up serious whether or not he would get THE GLOW like BRUCE LEROY when he became "The Master". I had to really fight for a fractured second to NOT howl with laughter,because he would have never brought questions that opened himself up to me again...and of course I told him NO and told him the real deal.A month later he asked me why doesn't he want to bang and smoke weed so much anymore. I told him that you're growing as a human being,and the questions you needed to ask of yourself,the issues that you needed to resolve in your heart that encouraged you to bang? They're being answered more completely,better,and more fully via martial arts.You don't have so much anger any more; the Warrior's Way is showing you peace and discipline. 2 months later he refused to participate in a driveby and his immediate gang homies sweated him and he asked me how he could explain to them that he's not no sellout or karate transformer (switching allegiance from his gang to karate) and I said to him that he should tell them that he's more dangerous now than ever,and because of that? Things that used to threaten him before DON'T.If the enemies rode on his homies or him? He'd respond.If they didn't? He had more important stuff to do like finish school make money train and talk to girls.And you don't put yourself in positions where you have to start stompin on dudes for nothin not because you're a coward but because it's beneath you.Now that you're a martial artist making real changes and growth,you fighting these guys would be like a pro boxer picking on a kid.The boxers don't do that because they already know what they'd do to the kid,so they mess with other boxers.It doesn't matter if the kid is stupid enough to think that the he can hang with the boxer,the boxer knows better and is like:"Yeah right kid." and keeps it pushin.That's what you do with all that ganxta drama now."Yeah right kid." Keep it pushin.

6 weeks later he participated in his first tournament.Swept the underbelt sparring without having a single point scored on him and one the title match 14-3.His boiz were there and LOVED IT.They came to our next tournament (last summer) and watched their homeboy take his grappling weight class (6 matches,6 submissions) too.THEY LOVED IT.They were amazed at what their homie could do.I heard them say several times comments like:"My ***** on some UFC **** now! He doin some Tekken ****!" 12 of them joined up since then (last year),and DeeAndre (the ganxta who first asked me if he would glow like BRUCE LEROY and the main subject of this anecdote) went from being a "D-" student last year on the verge of being expelled to being on track to graduate this year (the first of his brothers and sisters to do so) and this semester? He had a 3.0 and can run track now and play football next semester as a result.Of the 12 who joined,8 are still with me and all 8 have grown and changed dramatically as well.

It's HARD work.But it can be rewarding.


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## mook jong man (May 3, 2011)

I've taught my fair share of hardcore gangstaz over the years , there were. the infamous "Westside Wankers" , a gang made up entirely of single men , you've probably heard of them.
Very tough guy's with phenomenal grip strength , but only in the one hand strangely enough.

Then there were the "Southside Psychopaths", nice bunch of guys but for some reason they only seemed happy when doing knife work.

I also trained the notorious "Kleptomaniac Krew" , but that didn't last long because our equipment kept going missing.


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## ATACX GYM (May 31, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> I've taught my fair share of hardcore gangstaz over the years , there were. the infamous "Westside Wankers" , a gang made up entirely of single men , you've probably heard of them.
> Very tough guy's with phenomenal grip strength , but only in the one hand strangely enough.
> 
> Then there were the "Southside Psychopaths", nice bunch of guys but for some reason they only seemed happy when doing knife work.
> ...


 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!! This is the best post of the thread!


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