# Tenjindo



## FasterthanDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

Has anyone ever heard of Tenjindo. Came across the website when looking up DFW ninjitsu schools. Does it have any merit?


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## r.severe (Jun 10, 2004)

First off you will not find any ninjitsu schools in the DFW area using the incorrect spelling of ninjutsu... from my experience..
Try ninjutsu...

Anyway I have and have had the only school in the Dallas area from 1985...
www.artofcombat.com

I know that another guy traines up north of the Dallas area.. but forgot his name.. he is a high ranked Bujinkan member.. Luke shihan.. I believe.

I know that John L. from Houston.. has a small group here somewhere but they don't get out much... and are Genbukan..

Other than that.... ???

I do not know of any schools with tenjindo... names or arts...

I know if you look in yellow pages here there is only mine listed for the past 8 years... but not sure about the web...

Good luck..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Cryozombie (Jun 10, 2004)

FasterthanDeath said:
			
		

> Has anyone ever heard of Tenjindo. Came across the website when looking up DFW ninjitsu schools. Does it have any merit?



Well, he doesnt claim to be an ancient ninja master, so thats a plus...
Beyond that...

 :idunno:


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## Cryozombie (Jun 10, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> First off you will not find any ninjitsu schools in the DFW area using the incorrect spelling of ninjutsu... from my experience..
> Try ninjutsu...
> 
> Anyway I have and have had the only school in the Dallas area from 1985...
> ...



Ralph, 

Apparently the Instructor is a 1st Dan in Ninpo, 2nd in TKD, and 2nd In Judo...

He doesnt call his art Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu... its just a hybrid art. 

Here's their Website...

Tenjindo Taijutsu


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## r.severe (Jun 10, 2004)

I see...

There ois a big difference in the meaning of nin-jitsu and nin-jutsu.. they are not the same meaning or kanji...

I do read on his site that he is in fact ranked as you stated.
But it states ninpo taijutsu.

I see...
But what really does that mean?
What is ninpo taijutsu?
There is no art of ninpo taijutsu...
As well there is no art as taekwondo...
There has to be a system behind it..
As in...
kenjutsu...
kashima shin ryu kenjutsu...
or
kenpo...
kukishinden ryu kenpo...

I am not aware of any system of ninpo taijutsu..
Are you or is anyone else?

His ranking has to come from somewhere doesn't it.. ?

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Cryozombie (Jun 10, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> I am not aware of any system of ninpo taijutsu..
> Are you or is anyone else?
> 
> His ranking has to come from somewhere doesn't it.. ?
> ...



I think a lot of ninjutsu practitioners use it as a generic term tho, much like a lot of martial artists study "Karate"

I would make the assumption that using the term "Ninpo Taijutsu" he is from one of the 'Kans... But it would be a good question to ask him if one were ever to train with the guy...  He's near you, right?


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## Dale Seago (Jun 10, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> I know that another guy traines up north of the Dallas area.. but forgot his name.. he is a high ranked Bujinkan member.. Luke shihan.. I believe.



That would be Luke Molitor. I know him fairly well, trained with him during the April Tai Kai in Japan, and recommend him to anyone in his vicinity who's looking for an instructor. From his website: 




> Luke Molitor is a lifelong student of the Japanese warrior arts and ways, and is a Shidoshi Senior Instructor (Judan menkyo level) in the lineages taught in the Bujinkan Dojo under the auspices of Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi of Noda-shi, Japan. He has also taught, trained, and competed in a number of martial systems  Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Southeast Asian, and European, and has achieved significant ranks in several arts, including Brazilian style jujutsu, mixed-martial arts, kickboxing, fencing, and Western Combatives.
> 
> He has lived in Japan for a significant amount of time, and currently splits his time between Dallas, Texas and Saitama, Japan, where he continues to study and train with Dr. Hatsumi and his senior Japanese teachers. He is also a close, trusted, dedicated student of Hiroshi Nagase, Kenichi Someya, and Toshiro Nagato, whose feeling permeates the Jigoku Dojo.
> 
> ...



All that, and he's a nice guy too.


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## r.severe (Jun 11, 2004)

Yes,
Dale shihan.. 
I looked up his web site... 
Oh yes.. and remembered...
I have had 4 guys train with him over the past year or so....
They enjoyed meeting him and said he was a very nice guy.. tall.. moved very good too.
He trains (from what I was told) in the differnet methods than I do.. I call them 'movie stuff' from the conversations of the students who trained with him.... they said he had knowledge of the Bujinkan arts....and he spoke of training in other arts as well... students said he was very good at the way he does his art... but mainly for the younger guys and not as I train or teach.. which is more progressive pragmatic methodology and combative approach from what they stated. I can't disagree... 
I like to make assessments of my training and the training of the students here at the Dojo... so we have permissible contest or some call matches.. going to the post... with the skills of the Dojo training...
Seeing that I'm a bad boy.. and should be scolded daily for my bad past of being evil and misguided... LOL.. I understand why someone would stay clear of the Kamiyama Dojo... hey but the girls say I'm a nice guy... if no one else will...LOL..

James shidoshi has also trained with him. He said he enjoyed his training too.
Said he was a nice guy as well. 
By the way... He saw him at his kenjutsu seminar some time ago... up north of Dallas...

Luke shihan has never stopped by, called or introduced himself...
Funny... hey strange...

I did give a seminar in his area.. right down the steet from his place a month ago... I sent an invite to him.... oh well...

The Bujinkan .... ninja should do research...

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Jun 11, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> That would be Luke Molitor. I know him fairly well, trained with him during the April Tai Kai in Japan, and recommend him to anyone in his vicinity who's looking for an instructor. From his website:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What is his damn rank anyways? I saw him (and you) last April and was teasing him about it since he is so humble about the subject. I know he is the highest ranked guy in the Dallas area, but after the way Hatsumi put his trust in him (asking him to teach at the honbu, putting him in charge of part of the Daikomyosai party, etc) I was sure he would make a jump in grade. After all, Hatsumi does give rank for things like hosting tai kais, doing security or providing banners for those events. But Luke was rather tight lipped about whether he got a new rank and I can only tell that he wears the "ugly patch" as I like to call it.

Any news?

As for the Tenjindo guy, I remember when Luke was living here he was excited about finding a guy on the internet who lived near Dallas and was supposably teaching Bujinkan. When I next saw him after he had been back in America for a while, he said that the guy turned out to be a RVD video black belt course student. The guy seemed to try to avoid him. I get the sneaky suspicion that this guy may be the video black belt. RVD only grades up to shodan on those things, right? And that is the rank this guy has , right?


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 11, 2004)

whats RVD? And whats the difference between what he teaches and Bujinkan? Also I talked to him on the phone and he said that you offered him a challenge or something like that and that his art is more modern and based on Street survival.


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## Don Roley (Jun 11, 2004)

FasterthanDeath said:
			
		

> whats RVD? And whats the difference between what he teaches and Bujinkan? Also I talked to him on the phone and he said that you offered him a challenge or something like that and that his art is more modern and based on Street survival.



RVD is Richard Van Donk. He runs adds every issue of Black Belt for a video black belt course. 

And who the heck offered him a challenge? Not I. I live in Japan. But I don't doubt that he would say his art is more modern, street effective, etc. I ahve yet to meet someone who started their own art that didn't say that. I can't even imagine someone starting their own art if they didn't think it was some sort of improvement, other people of course probably having a differing opinion.


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## r.severe (Jun 11, 2004)

You want to hear a rear poor shameful joke about ranking...
Banners... ranking and security.. for ranking.. and money for ranking... who knows anymore.. I know one thing... it's a joke beyond jokes in the martial arts today...
Hey I believe Butch Johnson Shihan is or was the highest-ranking Bujinkan mega dan in the area&#8230;
He lives over in the far East Dallas area.. maybe as far as FtW. No disrespect to any maegadans.. but.. if he can be a magadan then hey I have news for you.. anyone can&#8230; and hey.. by the looks of it.. most everyone will be one soon.. !!!!
I believe everyone who goes to Japan or has gone to Japan or lived in Japan has jumped grade.. or many grades.. LOL.. Come on&#8230; is it the joke of the Bujinkan by now ?
I feel in regards to ranking.. in the Bujinkan it is best we keep that quit.. don&#8217;t you agree ?
Or maybe not&#8230;
Like many have said.. it use to take 10 years to take the godan test.. in the 80&#8217;s.. (mine took 9 and half years)
How long did yours take Donny sensei ?
You were a green belt when I already had my godan right.. and that was 1991 in Texas&#8230;
Butch Johnson had his 1st kyu as well.. now he is what.. 11, 12, 13, 14&#8230;level.. ?
In the 90&#8217;s it took a word from someone even if you have only trained a few weeks&#8230;
Now in the 2000&#8217;s.. what now?
What does it take to be a magadan now.. I hear it only takes a few friends who are already judan .. three to pass you.. or get you passed.. you can say the buddy system words.. in the Bujinkan Dojo these days.. 
Like they have said.. many times over..
It&#8217;s not what you know it&#8217;s who you know&#8230; RIGHT !!!
In 1983 I was promoted to hachikyu...
In 1988 I was promoted to nidan.....
In 1989 I was promoted to godan...
In 1991 I was promoted to nanadan... when Donny sensei was just a green belt.. and I have photos... wow.. all that and Texas too...
I know in 1992 I was passed to hachidan.. and two days later I was passed to kudan..
WOW.. I must have been gifted..
The gods were looking over my shoulder..
And I didn't pay a thing for it..
I was lucky or just out right on good terms with Sensei..

In my opinion RV Don shihan can hold his own.. and I would love to have him at my side during a conflict..

Hey and I don't feel the judan patch is ugly.. I used the same colors on my own personal Dojo patch.. looks great to me..

Ranking.. really..
What does it mean?

I feel compassion for your foe after the fact is what counts...

And one more thing.. Hatsumi sensei had me teaching a few times while I was in Japan too..
Look I'm a god now.. wow..
Come on..
Joke right.. means nothing..

I remember talking with Charles D. shihan once.. sensei passed him a menkyo.. through another member.. Charles D. shihan said he hasn't even seen sensei in a couple of years...

Chuck D. was my teacher.. he went to Japan as a nidan can back a yondan.. in two weeks.. and took the godan a few months after that.. in 1988...

I mean how long should it take or what should in reality should a person do skilled wise to reach a shodan... or sandan.. or godan.. or nanadan.. or kudan.. or etc... ?

Doesn't look or have much meaning now does it... to be ranked in the Bujinkan and some other martial arts from what I have experienced...

People can say what ever they want over the phone or e-mail or even a forum.. they can be the highest ranked or the most skilled... in their little world...
But really..
What is the martail arts about now?

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Jun 11, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> How long did yours take Donny sensei ?
> You were a green belt when I already had my godan right.. and that was 1991 in Texas



Errr, I am afraid you are quite wrong. Maybe you have me mixed up with someone else. I was wearing a black belt at that hell hole of a Tai Kai.

But this obviously is a sore point with you and you probably should be left alone to deal with your problems.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 11, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> What is his damn rank anyways? I saw him (and you) last April and was teasing him about it since he is so humble about the subject. I know he is the highest ranked guy in the Dallas area, but after the way Hatsumi put his trust in him (asking him to teach at the honbu, putting him in charge of part of the Daikomyosai party, etc) I was sure he would make a jump in grade. After all, Hatsumi does give rank for things like hosting tai kais, doing security or providing banners for those events. But Luke was rather tight lipped about whether he got a new rank and I can only tell that he wears the "ugly patch" as I like to call it.



"Last April" sounds like such a long time, when it's only been what, nine weeks? He hasn't said anything, but I can't imagine him NOT having gotten promoted. . .Not necessarily while he was there, as Soke seems to like surprises on occasion: My own last couple of dan grades just showed up in my mailbox without warning.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 11, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Now in the 2000s.. what now?
> What does it take to be a magadan now.. I hear it only takes a few friends who are already judan .. three to pass you.. or get you passed.. you can say the buddy system words.. in the Bujinkan Dojo these days..



Well, Ben Cole's April Tai Kai report is probably about as current as one can get on the subject. Since I was there, I can vouch for its accuracy. The relevant portions:




> Soke spoke widely of Takamatsu's passing, and only gave the Godan on the actual anniversary day (the second day). Of about 25+ people who attempted, 20 or so were turned into mashed potatoes.  I think ten people failed in a row before the first one passed.
> 
> On the third day, Soke began by announcing that several 15th dans "had been born of me" and that we would come to know who they were in time. Soke also said that there will be no Shidoshi born outside of Japan any longer. Even the 15th dans who may now give the test MUST go to Japan with the candidate and administer the exam in Soke's presence.
> 
> ...



(Bold-face emphasis is from the original post.)

So basically, the only way to get ranked at 5th dan and above any more is for Soke to see you, which means going to Japan as he's no longer teaching outside the country. 

Part of the reason originally for the 3 signatures required on a recommendation letter for 10th dan seems to have been that, in addition to having good physical skills, the candidate should be someone who has the respect of others in the _community_ of shihan and is also someone who "plays well with others" rather than someone who prefers to be a lone wolf, big fish in his own pond, etc. Obviously this process can still be abused, and it appears that Soke is aware that this has occurred.

I think it can be expected that any judan recommendations at this point will be closely scrutinized, and Soke may very well simply veto some of them occasionally.


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## r.severe (Jun 11, 2004)

Yes, Donny sensei.. I have a video tape of Kevin Millis shihan talking about the ranking of his school ...in my room with many others... and what he did before the taikai in Texas... and why...
I believe maybe you forget I'm a close friend of Millis shihan...
We go back a long way...

In fact I have enjoyed the last 5 daikomyosai on DVD... 
The many different points of views from everyone there have a great impact on the Bujinkan world wide. A great deal of wonderful people demo and display Hatsumi sensei art with great passion.
I say to understand the Bujinkan in action this is a wonderful manner in which to do so...

I personal have a colication of tapes going back to 1882 of the Bujinkan... some of the most known and unknown names in the art.. system... 100's of tapes.. with so many different points of views..
They are in fact very impressive to watch and remember the history of the growth of the Bujinkan...
The amount of information is a gift...
Many of these are Japanese training in different dojo over the years.. 
Wonderful..

You see a change in the Bujinkan.. year after year and how the Japanese students, wold wide students and soke make changes too...
What a grovy deal..

I view the Bujinkan in a tri-manner.. past present and future... as one..

As for community of the Bujinkan.. I don't see how this matters.. they are not on the mat with you or there holding pads everyday.. sweat.. pain and dedication.... they are not there with family issuses.. or feeling your body grow old..
And I have never watched or heard of anyone being tested in the Bujinkan before godan testing. or any ranking for that matter..
So who knows what others know unless they are involved with you on a daily basis..?
Having a beer with you does not mean they know their head from their back side...
This seems to be the brotherhood of ranking.. who kisses whos back side.. and who passes money to the others hand...
Yes.. the community...
I have personally watched so much abuse in ranking in the Bujinkan that I don't need anymore for two life times...
In fact...
Why trouble yourself.. ?
What is the goal?

I see the goals being training the ryuha...
Completely..
As a whole..
Understanding and drilling them till they are second nature.. till you become the ryuha.. then letting go.. working on understanding of what it is you have sweat, hurt and painfully worked towards for years...

What does all that ranking have to do with skills?
N O T H I N G ......

Time to do some weights... get some..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Jun 11, 2004)

Damn, we started off talking about Tenjindo, then rank, and somehow we swerved into the size of Ralph's video collection. That last post by Ralph really seems to meander. It started out with "Yes, Donny sensei.. I have a video tape of Kevin Millis shihan talking about the ranking of his school ...in my room with many others... and what he did before the taikai in Texas... and why...
I believe maybe you forget I'm a close friend of Millis shihan...
We go back a long way..." and just went on from there.

I just want to point out that you are wrong about the rank I had at the Texas Tai Kai. Not that I really care about the subject of rank. I see too many people obsese about it in one way or another. I just want to point out that any photos of my ugly mug at that Tai Kai will have to be found on a guy wearing a black belt, or no belt as I usually drop it off with my top when the temperature gets too hot.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 12, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Damn, we started off talking about Tenjindo, then rank, and somehow we swerved into the size of Ralph's video collection. That last post by Ralph really seems to meander. It started out with "Yes, Donny sensei.. I have a video tape of Kevin Millis shihan talking about the ranking of his school ...in my room with many others... and what he did before the taikai in Texas... and why...
> I believe maybe you forget I'm a close friend of Millis shihan...
> We go back a long way..." and just went on from there.



Some people just adore the taste of sour grapes, Don:



> *The Fox and the Grapes*
> 
> A FAMISHED FOX saw some clusters of ripe black grapes hanging
> from a trellised vine.  She resorted to all her tricks to get at
> ...


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## r.severe (Jun 12, 2004)

Now now Dale shihan.. that's not the truth...
Come on now...

I didn't say anything that wasn't truth.
That's the truth..
Bt I did go back and see that Donny sensei was a shodan ...
I was totally wrong..
The point was...
Now...
Is that Kevin Millis shihan said something that was poor in taste towards Donny sensei at the time... about ranking.. and the other 21 who were ranked at the time.. before the taikai..
In my opinion it was poor taste..
But..

Now with Luke shihan..
I have students telling me information as well as James shidoshi...
I don't feel it is in bad taste to repeat what they have said to me about someone else...
And the facts were they gave very good points about the classes and seminars by Luke shihan.. not anything bad at all.. other than Luke shihan trains younger guys when I train more mature guys...
I believe from the conversations the "movie stuff" was referring to the low postures, slow movement, forms, etc...
That's not bad in any way.. not at all..
I did it for many eyars till I progressed..
Hey I feel everyone needs 'movie stuff' at first..

Never the less.. who cares..

ok.. Why not just ask me what I think or feel.. and I wouldn't mind at all giving my opinion.. LOL.. like I always do..

ralph severe, kamiyama
What's bad about that?


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## Don Roley (Jun 12, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> I believe from the conversations the "movie stuff" was referring to the low postures, slow movement, forms, etc...



Hey, I like that type of training! Well, that is to say I don't find it pleasent, but getting down as low as possible and  _slowly_ going through the motions is about the best way of learning ways of moving I can think of. Your thighs burn like a mother if you are out of shape. It can be quite painfull. But if you can move when you **** is only a few inches off the ground, it is so much easier by comparison to move at normal height.

I never trained like that in America. But when I got to Japan one of my seniors in class took me aside and ran me ragged getting my basics up to Japan standards. I got comments on my improvements within a few weeks.

When I practice solo, a majority of what I do is this slow type of training. I slow things down to the point where I am in control of everything my body is doing. I will never forget being shown a video of a guy who called himself the "king of combat" and using the "slow" button to see how much of his movements worked against each other and tension and such slowed him down. I take tapes of Noguchi, Hatsumi, etc and I see no such faults. I train as I wish to fight and when I can I insure that there is no bad habits like I mentioned by slowing things down to the point where I can be in control of everything.

When working out with others, I match their speed of course.

Good to see that Luke is training like we did in Japan. He is a great guy. Humble, combat experienced and always eager to learn.

How did we end up talking about him?


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## Bujingodai (Jun 12, 2004)

Grading can be a little funny sometimes in the Kan, or any other "Ninjutsu" school for that matter.
My original Shidoshi Frank Hill was promoted to a Hachidan, good for it. He is one of the best practitioners I have met.
I like the way RVD moves, not keen on the video thing.
In Atlanta I was a little dismayed sometimes as to some people who were "megadans"
Though sometimes I think Sokes unique approach to grading is refreshing, based on contribution etc.
Sometimes though hmm. I remember 5 years ago assisting a young (13) to becomea nikyu. He is now a Godan I believe...at 18 that seems a tad young to respect what it means. But that is just my opinion, as I haven't seen him since the yellow belt days, his teacher though is a really good artist and underranked IMO.
I would have very much liked to have seen some of the older Shihan such as Ed Martin in the younger days. 
It's too bad sometimes you see Judans who can't do a Koho Kaiten.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 12, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Good to see that Luke is training like we did in Japan. He is a great guy. Humble, combat experienced and always eager to learn.



I agree about Luke. I also happen to know that he starts people out in his dojo with very basic-level kihon, both to build a good foundation and as a way of screening people.

Agree with your comments on training as well.




> How did we end up talking about him?



Because on page 1, Ralph said:




			
				r.severe said:
			
		

> Anyway I have and have had the only school in the Dallas area from 1985...
> www.artofcombat.com
> 
> I know that another guy traines up north of the Dallas area.. but forgot his name.. he is a high ranked Bujinkan member.. Luke shihan.. I believe.


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## r.severe (Jun 13, 2004)

These are some really good points.. all three..
I can agree on most of it.. and I can disagree on most of it too...
....... here's why....
In my opinion, from what I have experienced watching the kihon happo, sanshin no gata&#8230;from daikomyosai, taikai and training tapes.. seminars and taikai personally&#8230; I feel the basic striking skills, fitness levels in aerobic power, biometrics, etc.. should be focused on to improve health&#8230; because something is missing in what I see&#8230; and maybe it&#8217;s the same in Japan&#8230; too. But the over all abilities of the people I seen just are not cutting it.. and I don&#8217;t feel being a smoker, drinker or drug user is a very good example for a guide in bujutsu&#8230;
Doing these skills such as &#8216;movie based&#8217; training in my opinion goes nowhere and it there for the cash.. catching the fantasy type students as they fly by&#8230;
Where are the push-ups, crunches, etc.. for fitness?
Here lies the main difference in what I call training and others call training&#8230; fitness and fighting ability&#8230;
Hatsumi sensei doesn&#8217;t move like he does from &#8216;movie&#8217; stuff.. he moves totally different and gives totally different examples as he teaches on how to move, stance, break balance, hit.. etc&#8230; doesn&#8217;t look &#8216;movie&#8217; like to me&#8230; not what I see in others on the stages or in the dojo&#8230;
Not that it&#8217;s bad or for everyone&#8230; &#8216;movie&#8217; madness just ain&#8217;t for me&#8230;

No disrespect... but.....
I just can't get it out of my head watching the megadans.. move and just fall over each other then way they do... as well.... if in fact they teach kihon happo or sanshin no gata.. because it sure doesn't look like it to me...
Looks like they are on some vacation after black belt or... godan... and forgot fitness and training themselves..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Cryozombie (Jun 13, 2004)

Holds his tounge... Not going to say it... not...


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## Dale Seago (Jun 14, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Doing these skills such as movie based training in my opinion goes nowhere and it there for the cash.. catching the fantasy type students as they fly by



Your term "movie based training" first came up earlier on this page in reference to Luke Molitor, where you said, 




> I believe from the conversations the "movie stuff" was referring to the low postures, slow movement, forms, etc...
> That's not bad in any way.. not at all..



You know, the kinds of things you can't really begin learning Budo Taijutsu without. Would it be asking too much for you to be consistent?




> Hatsumi sensei doesnt move like he does from movie stuff.. he moves totally different and gives totally different examples as he teaches on how to move, stance, break balance, hit.. etc doesnt look movie like to me. . .



People who want to be able to do the kinds of things he does need to train the way he wants them to train. People throughout the Bujinkan have varying degrees of understanding of just what that means; as a general rule, however, the ones who spend the most time with him (especially those who've been doing so in the last, say, 5 or 6 years into the present) are the most likely to have a clue.




> Here lies the main difference in what I call training and others call training fitness and fighting ability
> not what I see in others on the stages or in the dojo
> Not that its bad or for everyone movie madness just aint for me
> 
> ...



Actually -- and leaving aside the very unlikely prospect that you actually understand what you're seeing on the videos -- I see a lot of disrespect here in your implication that you know more about how to train properly for Bujinkan budo than Hatsumi sensei and the shihan.

At the end of page 1, I mentioned,




> I think it can be expected that any judan recommendations at this point will be closely scrutinized, and Soke may very well simply veto some of them occasionally.



Part of the reason I mentioned that is that when I was in Japan a couple of months ago I was given a startling example of what long memories Soke and the shihan have about people. A friend of mine had been having a conversation a couple of days before with one of the new Japanese 15th dans about me, and the shihan told him very bluntly that I "used to be crap: Years ago he used to train with X. But in the last few years he's gotten pretty good, and now he understands true Budo. I like him." I hadn't been training with the individual the shihan mentioned for 12 years or so, and I was astonished that he even knew this about me -- much less that I was "being watched" over the years since.

I suspect that if you ever went back to Japan yourself, you'd be equally surprised at what people there recall about you.

That's unlikely to happen though, since as far as I know you're not even a legitimate Bujinkan instructor anymore. And that being the case -- especially as you've been "out of the loop" (if you were ever really in it) for years, any opinions you express about the Bujinkan, its instructors, its training methods, etc. are simply not relevant (whether they're favorable or unfavorable).

I concede that I could be wrong about your current status, as I didn't think to ask when I was in Japan in April. If you'd care to scan and post a pic of your 2004 Bujinkan Shidoshikai membership card here within the next week I'll happily retract that comment. But if you don't have it, you certainly are not a legitimate instructor of the Bujinkan martial arts or student of Hatsumi sensei, any more than a military officer who deserts is still a military officer even if he did once receive a commission.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 14, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> I concede that I could be wrong about your current status, as I didn't think to ask when I was in Japan in April. If you'd care to scan and post a pic of your 2004 Bujinkan Shidoshikai membership card here within the next week I'll happily retract that comment. But if you don't have it, you certainly are not a legitimate instructor of the Bujinkan martial arts or student of Hatsumi sensei, any more than a military officer who deserts is still a military officer even if he did once receive a commission.



Actually, I think I'll withdraw that retraction offer: Too easy to photoshop something like that.


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## r.severe (Jun 14, 2004)

You know, the kinds of things you can't really begin learning Budo Taijutsu without. Would it be asking too much for you to be consistent?

Dale shihan, I would disagree becuase of my experience in biometrics coming from direct knowledge of fighitng and the training for fighting...
Sanshin no gata is only what it is.. this can be of course worked from MANY different methods of training without the outdated biometrics used in doing sanshin no gata.
Same holds true for kihon happo koshijutsu.
The first 3 forms of training can be worked as well from MANY different training methods without using the outdated ideas of Japanese karate or kenpo as a basis.
Now with that I turn the deal up-side down and say I do not train budo.
I do not train for spiritual arts sake.
For example.. I do not train battojutsu for the sake of art.. I only do it to cut down what it is that confronts me. If that is lost then as well thei can be seen in firearms training too. I do not shoot for art. I shoot for putting down evil that confronts me and wished to take life from me.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## r.severe (Jun 14, 2004)

People who want to be able to do the kinds of things he does need to train the way he wants them to train. People throughout the Bujinkan have varying degrees of understanding of just what that means; as a general rule, however, the ones who spend the most time with him (especially those who've been doing so in the last, say, 5 or 6 years into the present) are the most likely to have a clue.

Dale shihan, Hatsumi sensei, in my opinion,  moves "his" way because of his training. Not only in martial skills but other parts of his life. His base of motion comes from different attribute development. 
From what Hatsumi sensei has told me is like this, let go and do your thing.. don&#8217;t do what I do.. and break from form. So..
I don&#8217;t believe the Bujinkan has a monopoly on motion and understanding. I feel all-martial training and arts have the same degree of this view too.
But I also know from my research as well as my own personal training there are many within the system that are gifted and are free of being hand feed or nursed as they go alone their path. Dan Inosanto was one of those that are in the public eye. I&#8217;m sure you under stand that. And with that example you understand his training with the late Bruce Lee and where he took his own martial path. M. Musashi the great sword saint did the same. These are but two examples of 100&#8217;s I&#8217;m sure the both of us could surface within this conversation on liberation.  
I have studied the arts in which Hatsumi sensei teaches and stay with my studies every month in regards to the Bujinkan system. It is simple and doesn&#8217;t take much to train, read, watch DVD&#8217;s, etc&#8230; travel is not so important when it comes to understanding. Not in my opinion.
You can take a ryuha gata and train it till you drop. Twist it and change it&#8230; call it this and that.. make points out of points.. and still you have what you started with. A form. As in a mother placing a spoon of food within your mouth. It comes a time where you have to do it yourself. I&#8217;m sure you get my point.
I believe just because you spend time with someone doesn&#8217;t really mean you will understand them or have their skills I some magic way of transmission. 
Even though I love Hatsumi sensei and his system this does not mean we are one... and must.. have to.. or need to be with each other to get to the same place...
I, on the other hand, am 43.. he is 73... I spar a great deal.. I have fighting experience.. I stiil run around like a mad man.. etc...
We are not the same.. but that doesn't mean I or anyone else is missing any points if the points are the same each year.. over and over and over again...

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## r.severe (Jun 14, 2004)

Dale shihan, I feel maybe you have a point here&#8230;
I for one see Hatsumi sensei as a wonder-man.. a true gift of health and energy&#8230; for his age or for any age for that matter he is unreal with motion and energy&#8230; 
But what he stands in might be another factor&#8230;
Mental, physical and spiritual fitness is a base for all of his teaching&#8230; I personally do not see it as a understood part of his methodology&#8230;
I don&#8217;t trouble myself with the idea of shihan.. first they are human beings.. and the base for examples are in fact mental, physical and spiritual fitness. 

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## r.severe (Jun 14, 2004)

I suspect that if you ever went back to Japan yourself, you'd be equally surprised at what people there recall about you.
That's unlikely to happen though, since as far as I know you're not even a legitimate Bujinkan instructor anymore. And that being the case -- especially as you've been "out of the loop" (if you were ever really in it) for years, any opinions you express about the Bujinkan, its instructors, its training methods, etc. are simply not relevant (whether they're favorable or unfavorable).
I concede that I could be wrong about your current status, as I didn't think to ask when I was in Japan in April. If you'd care to scan and post a pic of your 2004 Bujinkan Shidoshikai membership card here within the next week I'll happily retract that comment. But if you don't have it, you certainly are not a legitimate instructor of the Bujinkan martial arts or student of Hatsumi sensei, any more than a military officer who deserts is still a military officer even if he did once receive a commission.


Dale shihan,  I bet it would be a funny thing what other say about one or the other and this and that.. that is human nature.. 
I have no ill feelings or joy one way or another about what anyone says&#8230; about me&#8230; why should I ?
The truth is within your knowledge, execution of this knowledge, and what are the effects of this execution.  
I could really pass on the feelings of others to have a good day&#8230;LOL..
Like I have stated.. they are not with you daily.. monthly.. and what really do they know about you.. your family, bills, pains, etc.. they only hear rumors of peoples opinions. 
Like I watched you on the 2003 daikomyosai DVD. It was nice to see you. I would enjoy being there with you as well as everyone else.. but Japan is not my place.. Texas is..
I didn&#8217;t see much in regards to combative training as Hatsumi sensei said to do&#8230; or as he put it.. real fighting&#8230;
I saw demos&#8230; on demos.. stop and go..  not fighting feeling.. or maybe I did in fact miss something&#8230; maybe so..
Hatsumi sensei movement was unreal&#8230; beautiful and a honor to view&#8230;
But combat training ?
Ok.. Yes, I do not pass ranking in the Bujinkan Dojo.. not because I am not a part of it but because I do not train budo.. Ok..
I have stated to J L. that I will in fact not be renewing my shidoshikai card...
It doesn't do anything for me personally...
I don't see the need.. do you have a need to have yours? Does anyone?
What does the shidoshikai do?
What in the world does it stand for?
I have never seen anything come of this deal.. not in 16 years..
Crazy...

I feel in regards to training maybe more effort into why I or you feel a way or about this or that would be more constructive to each other...
I respect you as a human being and from my experience with seeing you and watching your skills you do infact understand a great deal about martial skills..
I have invited you when you were in Dallas to drop by.. to see for yourself.. and not by some others opinion what I do.. train and teach what I do in fact teach...
You didn't.
So what in fact do you know about me in regards to me personally or my training or my teaching or my students skills or knowledge ?
Does it matter if they do san shina no gata or not?
I feel it is important they are good humans and treat everyone with respect and survive their daily life...
I in fact do carry them in high regards...
Many can beat the crap out of most of the Bujinkan students I have seen.. and display skills of the ryuha way beyond what I have seen in the Bujinkan students...
What does this mean Dale shihan?
Nothing really..
You might say I am different and do not wish or importantly NEED to follow...
I feel I have the understanding to lead or just be myself...
In all due respect to all of the Bujinkan members Dale shihan.. it only matters if you are happy and safe... and at times if you can seek, smack, slam and submit evil...
I'm not sure what the fantasy about Japan with you guys...
I don't see it..
I don't feel it..
I don't get up in the afternoon and wish to go.. before I get to the rest room..LOL..
It just is not a big deal..

Why not come to Dallas and drop by.. see for your self.. give your point of view as a friend and fellow teacher of warrior arts..
This would be a wonderful treat for me as well as to the guys here... my honor.
And with all due respect if you feel I suck or what I do sucks.. then by all means tell Hatsumi sensei and the world.
But this will take first hand knowledge.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Dale Seago (Jun 14, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> And with all due respect if you feel I suck or what I do sucks.. then by all means tell Hatsumi sensei and the world.



That's not the issue; and for the record I haven't suggested and am not suggesting that you suck or what you do sucks: Just that it's not Bujinkan, which puts you in the same category vis-a-vis "The Booj" as, say, Robert Bussey, Brian McCarthy, _et al_.


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## Don Roley (Jun 14, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Holds his tounge... Not going to say it... not...



Mind if I have a seat next you you while we bite our tounges?


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## Cryozombie (Jun 14, 2004)

Pull it up.

 :cheers:


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## r.severe (Jun 15, 2004)

That's not the issue; and for the record I haven't suggested and am not suggesting that you suck or what you do sucks: Just that it's not Bujinkan, which puts you in the same category vis-a-vis "The Booj" as, say, Robert Bussey, Brian McCarthy, et al.


Dale shihan, that's funny.
I always felt my shidoshi license and menkyo from the soke was real.
And the teaching of the 6 ryuha, Shinden Fudo ryu, Togakure ryu, Takagi Yoshin ryu, Koto ryu, Gyokko ryu and Kukishinden ryu.
Yes I know I do in fact train in as well as use different methods of Japanese arts other than those 6.. but that's no crime.
I don't recall saying I didn't teach the 6 ryuha from the teachings of Hatsumi sensei.. did I ?
So how is it you feel I do not ?
I teach the tenchijin.. which I have from 1986... when I was given permission to teach the Bujinkan arts.
So.. funny you would say or imply that I in fact do not...
And if this is not what you said.. then what was it ?
If you have a simple example what you mean by... ""Just that it's not Bujinkan""....
Then explain how it is I do in fact teach the same ryuha and same tenchijin that Hatsumi sensei has in his Bujinkan but it is not Bujinkan ?
Just because I do not rank people in Bujinkan Dojo Budo Taijutsu doesn't mean I do not teach the arts of the Bujinkan unless you have some magic ball that can explain other-wise.. ????
I believe with all due respect you're a little lost.. or maybe just in a vortex...
In fact you can be a student of the Bujinkan Dojo, ranked in the Bujinkan Dojo and NOT be a member or a shidoshikai member... It has been this way from what I remember... oh 1986....
Once you are in fact ranked doesn't mean you are not that rank if you die, walk away from the circus, train in other arts.. or just don't care to be part of the vortex of BS...
Now if you know differently and can show this.. by all means be my guest Dale shihan and fire away...
With that.. it really doesn't matter now does it...?
I have the knowledge of the ryuha in which I have in fact trained in for many years and the ranking under the name of Hatsumi sensei.. and the Bujinkan dojo ninpo Taijutsu and the Bujinkan Dojo Budo Taijutsu..
Now again.. 
What you stated is funny...
To put me into the same category of anyone else is foolish and out right rude.. as well as a joke in regards to what we are having a chat about.
You should be ashamed of yourself..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Jun 15, 2004)

Talking about Hatsumi....



			
				Dale Seago said:
			
		

> People who want to be able to do the kinds of things he does need to train the way he wants them to train. People throughout the Bujinkan have varying degrees of understanding of just what that means; as a general rule, however, the ones who spend the most time with him (especially those who've been doing so in the last, say, 5 or 6 years into the present) are the most likely to have a clue.



Just an interjection. I have a bone to pick with you Dale, since you are at least making sense in a consistant fashion.

I know you do not mean to imply it, but there are a lot of people in the Bujinkan that look on statements like the above and come to the conclusion that Hatsumi is the sole source of what to do in the Bujinkan. They reject the ways he used to train and now try to copy his movements as much as possible. 

If they are at your level, great. But the newbies do not have the background that Hatsumi has. It is like jumping straight into advanced physics and ignoring any type of basic math instruction. I have never heard anything about Hatsumi liffting weights, as some advocate. But you know he does not move anymore in the low stances that we were talking about Luke teaching. After nearly 50 years, I doubt he has to do anything like that. I do not happen to have 50 years in the art yet. So I do it.

What you are saying (correct me if I am wrong) is that as Hatsumi's experience lengthens he understands the art more and is better able to give insight that others need. An example of this is how Takamatsu told Hatsumi not to do the strenuous toughning exercises he did to develop his fingers because by the time he reached the point where Hatsumi was his only student he was having circulation problems in them. I can take that lesson and avoid the arts that hit their limbs with iron bars. I notice that none of the practicioners of such arts seem to have hit a good age yet since they started the practice.

The problem is that a lot of people I see coming to Japan are not bothering to do anything but go see Hatsumi. You stopped by at least one Japaese shihan's dojo while you were here (and didn't bring me a present :jedi1: ) but many just do not. So they do not learn anything other than what Hatsumi is teaching, and he is no longer teaching the things like "See Dick run. See Jane run..." because there are things only he can teach while there are guys like Noguchi, Oguri, Someya, etc that can teach the basic style and have the class size to give more personal advice. Heck, I was just reading a rant about how if you only go to Tai Kais and the like for your instruction you might as well be taking a video instruction course for all the corrections of your mistakes you will get.

I can tell you of some guys that only train with Hatsumi that just move terribly. Try to get them to show up to an Oguri class and the like and they just kind of sniff. They draw their power from their closeness to Hatumi, without bothering to train with any "lesser" person. I know you are not advocating this, but the above quote can be used by such people to justify what they do just as the Tao of Jeet Kun Do has been used as a justification for anyone who can't spend more than 9 months in and art before they get bored and "improve" on the classical arts.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 15, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Talking about Hatsumi....
> 
> Just an interjection. I have a bone to pick with you Dale, since you are at least making sense in a consistant fashion.



 :asian: I've been remiss, then -- thank you for pointing it out.




> I know you do not mean to imply it, but there are a lot of people in the Bujinkan that look on statements like the above and come to the conclusion that Hatsumi is the sole source of what to do in the Bujinkan. They reject the ways he used to train and now try to copy his movements as much as possible.



No, I certainly didn't mean to imply that. If you just start out trying to mimic him you'll never grasp either the fundamentals that support the movement he's using or the more advanced concepts he's expressing.

I remember the San Francisco Tai Kai in the summer of '86. . .Everyone was stumbling around, totally lost, and eventually Soke went into an en-masse excoriation about how disappointed he was in American instructors who had not been properly preparing us by teaching us correct fundamentals such as the sanshin no kata and kihon happo.

And we're all looking at each other in puzzlement, going "Huh? What are those? Kihon wha'fo'?"

We weren't "getting it" because we didn't have the basic tools which would allow us to begin understanding.

At the same time, those fundamentals -- and in this context I would also include all the waza of the various ryuha as, in a sense, kihon -- are not enough by themselves. As Soke put it in his newest book (page 36): 




> In the martial arts, the basics are of supreme importance. In general, students start by learning forms or techniques. Beginners have to train initially with "visible" movements: this is inescapable, as otherwise they simply will not understand any further complexities. Visible movements are studied first in Ninpo Taijutsu too -- but soon you have to progress to a world which is invisible to the naked eye. It is important that this training be natural.



Given the level on which Soke himself is teaching, the only way this progression can be "natural" is if seniors who are further along the path guide you, correct your errors, and act as a "bridge" between these two worlds. This is part of the reason why sempai/kohai relationships are important, and is a crucial part of the makeup of a ryu: Whether koryu or gendai, a ryu is not just a collection of techniques and a particular style of doing things. As you know, it's better translated as "tradition" than as a "style"; and the kanji used implies a stream, something that "flows" through time and through the community of people who comprise the ryu.

So, while it's crucial to train with Soke, it is equally critical to train with the shihan so that you can keep growing and not wander off the path. I've lost count of the times that Soke has pointed to the shihan and said people should train with them. I do it every chance I get; so do my students, and so do all the instructors around my neck of the woods that I know personally.




> Heck, I was just reading a rant about how if you only go to Tai Kais and the like for your instruction you might as well be taking a video instruction course for all the corrections of your mistakes you will get.



I haven't seen that one, but you're absolutely right.

BTW, I'm acutely conscious of this "bridging" role in the way I teach my own classes. Like all the Japanese teachers and most American instructors, I have a "real-world day job", and my training and teaching has to come after that. So my own teaching is really geared toward the more advanced students in the class. To help compensate for that, an 8th dan in my dojo, Patrick McKee, teaches a class just before mine on Tuesdays where the focus is more fundamental, and I also have a half-day "mini-seminar" on a weekend once a month where we usually work on whatever issues those who show up bring with them. Even in my own classes, though, I always try to do three things in each and every class session:

1) Present something which new students "just in off the street" can do effectively;

2) Present something which will have the judan who trains with me every week asking questions;

3) "Connect" both through the course of the session so that, at least by the end of the class, people can see the relationship between the two.

This is all connected in some ways with Ralph's posts on this thread, so I'm going to touch on that here as well. He's made it clear in this thread and on other boards that he holds the Bujinkan community -- Hatsumi sensei's ryu -- in contempt and has no interest in supporting it in any way: Just wants to grab whatever he can for himself, and to hell with everyone else. He feels the training methods are outdated, which is a sure sign that he doesn't understand them. He feels the martial ability of the Japanese shihan is "weak". He's badmouthed Hatsumi sensei himself elsewhere, in addition to various instructors by name. He clearly has no interest in continuing to learn and grow in the Bujinkan arts, preferring to portray himself as the Master to whom everyone else in the Bujinkan needs to measure up: If he really wanted to "keep going", there's a shihan (Luke Molitor) about half an hour away, who continues to spend a lot of time training with both Soke and several of the Japanese shihan on a regular basis, whom Ralph could go to if he can't afford to get to Japan.

He has separated himself from the Bujinkan, not only by his words and actions over the years but by not even remaining a member of the organization in a formal sense by keeping his membership up to date. He's bragged about never paying for rank, and years ago about having not paid for the shihan classes he attended in Japan (oh yes, they do remember).

As I said earlier, it's comparable to a military officer who deserts. He may still have a commissioning document in his possession. He may still have whatever level of tactical and strategic training and knowledge he had absorbed, perhaps using it to train a force of his own loyal only to him like Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now.  He may even still be maintained in the military database so he can be court-martialed if he surfaces again. But he is in no way considered a legitimate military officer.

By the same token, Ralph Severe is not a Bujinkan instructor.


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## r.severe (Jun 15, 2004)

This is all connected in some ways with Ralph's posts on this thread, so I'm going to touch on that here as well. He's made it clear in this thread and on other boards that he holds the Bujinkan community -- Hatsumi sensei's ryu -- in contempt and has no interest in supporting it in any way: Just wants to grab whatever he can for himself, and to hell with everyone else.

****KY, Dale shihan, you&#8217;re funny. How did I say I hold the Bujinkan in contempt? Why not twist it and just say what I said to have you feel this way. Explain.. 
And while your at it why not state where I say I have no interest in the ryu of the Bujinkan or in Hatsumi sensei ryu&#8230;.? Why not just post it here?
Yes, you are in fact right on.. I do not support the community of the Bujinkan financially or baby sit them or post BS about things that in fact do not belong in combative training and I do post how I feel about outdated training methods.. and I do in fact post what I feel about the BS ranking.. and not forget the &#8216;movie stuff&#8217; that is for kids.. 
Yes, what have you done for me Dale shihan as a shihan in the Bujinkan Community?
How have you helped me?
How do you help others in the community other than helping yourself to money at seminars?
Do you feel the Bujinkan or Hatsumi sensei is to be supported financially in some way?
And why?
What does the Bujinkan community or shidoshikai do for the members other than take monies for membership and rank? I&#8217;m sure everyone would like to know.****************************

He feels the training methods are outdated, which is a sure sign that he doesn't understand them. 

****ky, yes, Dale shihan.. they are mainly outdated.. and have been proven on the mat.. they are outdated&#8230; and till otherwise proven differently then it is not my &#8216;feelings&#8217; that say they are outdated of data that or knowledge that they are outdated.. 
And what information or knowledge do you have about me in regards to my skills or understanding to the ryu or the methods of the Bujinkan or any martial tradition that I train in or teach? None. 
You have no data to back up your statement about me now do you.
In fact you most likely have no data about why I know that methods of training are outdated now do you Dale shhan.. ?***************

He feels the martial ability of the Japanese shihan is "weak". 

*****ky, in fact from my experience and being in Japan for such a very short time, 30 days, I felt they were surprising weak and not martial tough. And their fitness levels were very poor. But this is my opinion. I wouldn&#8217;t feel it matters to anyone else. But maybe I hit some nerve in someone&#8217;s heart. Maybe so.
Maybe when I was in Japan Hatsumi sensei spoke about this in classes that I was at and maybe I&#8217;m just repeating how I felt about what he stated. Maybe if the people who I offended with my personal views should be aware of their fitness and ability to hide their weakness as a shinobi. I don&#8217;t only feel the Japanese shihan are weak Dale shihan I feel the same way more or less about most of the Bujinkan Shihan. If you get my point.*******

He's badmouthed Hatsumi sensei himself elsewhere, in addition to various instructors by name.

****ky, Dale shihan, how so?******

 He clearly has no interest in continuing to learn and grow in the Bujinkan arts, preferring to portray himself as the Master to whom everyone else in the Bujinkan needs to measure up: If he really wanted to "keep going", there's a shihan (Luke Molitor) about half an hour away, who continues to spend a lot of time training with both Soke and several of the Japanese shihan on a regular basis, whom Ralph could go to if he can't afford to get to Japan.

****ky, I do not feel being rude is very becoming Dale shihan. Is it? Then why be rude?
Are these the manners of a Bujinkan Shihan on a forum?
Now.. I have made no statement in regards to what you stated,  &#8220;He clearly has no interest in continuing to learn and grow in the Bujinkan arts&#8221; This is a lie.
I in fact have not asked for anyone to &#8216;come&#8217; to me for anything. If so then why not state it?
I have my door open for any member of any Japanese art to come in any time to help with what I do not understand. They are open to you too. I have stated this.
I don&#8217;t feel Luke shihan wishes to exposed his students to what I do for many reasons. Wouldn&#8217;t you agree? Look at what I do.. it&#8217;s so twisted and none &#8216;right&#8217; in your opinion.. after all you know what my classes are all about.. you have visited here&#8230; have you Dale shihan? NO..
Why do you use Luke shihan as you pun&#8230;.?
You know James shidoshi is here too.. he comes by a great deal..
Why not bring him up in your post?
Why not ask for his shidoshikai membership&#8230;LOL.. or Bujinkan membership..LOL..
HELLO..
I feel you&#8217;re just being hateful&#8230;******** 

He has separated himself from the Bujinkan, not only by his words and actions over the years but by not even remaining a member of the organization in a formal sense by keeping his membership up to date. He's bragged about never paying for rank, and years ago about having not paid for the shihan classes he attended in Japan (oh yes, they do remember).

****ky, Paying for rank. And? What&#8217;s you point?
Paying for classes? And what&#8217;s your point? And what classes were those? Were you there taking fees for those classes and no for a fact I did this or that? Are you telling a lie Dale shihan? Now now.. 
YES, I have broken away from the mickey mouse show.. or circus as it&#8217;s called.. The politics of the Bujinkan&#8230; and the rat race to ranking and kissing butt. YOU ARE CORRECT !
Who needs such negative BS in their life Dale shihan?
What drama&#8230; this could make a great TV show&#8230;****************** 

By the same token, Ralph Severe is not a Bujinkan instructor.

*****ky, Dale shihan, I&#8217;m just as much a Bujinkan shidoshi as you are&#8230;. LOL.. 
What else?
It is totally funny how Bujinkan people or students take their training so lightly.. and just ride things out without research into more updated methods of fitness and combative nature that in fact Hatsumi sensei tells them to so&#8230;
He writes about it, talks about it.. and shows this by demos&#8230;
By far Hatsumi sensei is one of the greatest living examples of beautiful motion in the human form&#8230;.
This in fact does not mean he is right or always perfect&#8230; about things within his knowledge base or outside his knowledge base&#8230; To disagree on this point would be foolish&#8230;Dale shihan&#8230;
With this then you have to ask yourself.. Dale shihan.. what hands on fighting experience do you have to pass on to others teaching a combative system of living skills and battlefield or street conflicts..?
Then you have to ask yourself what the teachers have in regards to combative experience to pass on to you in regards to living skills on a battlefield or street conflict&#8230;?
This goes hand in hand with teaching any weapon or unarmed skill&#8230;
What is it that the teach knows to be &#8216;truth&#8217; from his experience&#8230;.
Truth.. a wonderful word..
I for one can see through BS..
I have fighting experience&#8230;.
I got it from beating the crap out of people for many many years as a stupid youth.. and with weapons as well as my own body&#8230;
I pas on that knowledge from experience&#8230;
And what I do not have I training.. over and over to do the best I can if the need comes alone again&#8230;
But first you need some type of direction to understand &#8216;truth&#8217;&#8230;.
I feel in many ways dance is a symbol for combative knowledge&#8230; or demoing martial skills have become some type of display of combative experience&#8230; LOL..
How far from the &#8216;truth&#8217; can you get&#8230;
Training with your buddy or friends or students does not give you that &#8216;truth&#8217; Dale shihan&#8230; and you know this to be the truth. You are not stupid in my opinion.
But in ways you state things that are in fact somewhat a little off.. twisted&#8230; and selfish.. and not really looking at the big picture of what you are referring to.. and you get your facts way off balance and try to come across as a person that has knowledge of others nature and others life&#8230;. when you do not have this knowledge.
I have faith in you and feel you will come around and understand what it is I am saying. You always have been a very good human being&#8230;. to those you love i'm sure of it...
You are still welcome to visit even if you feel hateful towards what is fact.
Come in and show us the tenchijin and what ever to see if it is in fact not what I do... and teach.. I'm sure you will be surprised... and then maybe love me too.

You do not need Japan Dale shihan to understand.... or the Japanese shihan their to hold your hand... unless.. it's your way... ok by me.
You cannot take back what has been given... no matter how hateful you wish to come acroos to everyone you touch in your life... you can only go forward.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Jay Bell (Jun 15, 2004)

Has anyone noticed....maybe it's just me....that you don't actually have to read Ralph's posts.  You already know what he's going to say.  You can just skim really quick, find the all-familiar verbage and move on to the next.  It's kind of neat.  Takes much less time to sort through.


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## Don Roley (Jun 15, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> Has anyone noticed....maybe it's just me....that you don't actually have to read Ralph's posts.  You already know what he's going to say.  You can just skim really quick, find the all-familiar verbage and move on to the next.  It's kind of neat.  Takes much less time to sort through.



I am not saying a word. I am just going to sit here thinking happy thoughts, happy thoughts, happy thoughts.


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## Shogun (Jun 15, 2004)

I'm gonna jump off........I guess its a subject?..for a second. I hope its okee?

What "rank" do you have to be to teach Bujinkan arts? I keep hearing Godan (5th degree) but all the instructors in my state are shodan, nidan, or sandan.....what gives?


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## Dale Seago (Jun 15, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> What "rank" do you have to be to teach Bujinkan arts? I keep hearing Godan (5th degree) but all the instructors in my state are shodan, nidan, or sandan.....what gives?



There are two instructor categories, Shidoshi and Shidoshi-ho. A Shidoshi is someone at 5th dan or above, and these folks are authorized to have their own dojo.

A Shidoshi-ho or "junior-grade" instructor is someone at 1st through 4th dan who is teaching with the permission, and under the guidance, of a shidoshi. Once you reach 5th dan you ain't gotta be nobody's -ho, no mo'.

According to the paperwork I have from the Hombu, both Shidoshi and Shidoshi-ho are required to be members of the Bujinkan Shidoshikai and to renew their Shidoshikai membership cards each year. If they don't do that, they're teaching without authorization.

You can see pictures of the pertinent documents on the FAQ page at Luke Molitor's site, http://www.jigokudojo.com/


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## Jay Bell (Jun 15, 2004)

As a fully licensed instructor, Godan.  Typically the lower grades are representative of a shidoshi when they teach.


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## Shogun (Jun 15, 2004)

Thanks. that would explain all the talk of "6th dan Shidoshi". It seems like Ninjutsu has similar rank properties as BJJ. Now dont jump the gun because I said that, anyone. I know what I said. I am saying it because at blue belt (2-3 years) in BJJ, you can coach. at purple (4-5 years) you can instruct and issue rank. at brown(6-9 years) you are a full teacher. at black(8-10 years) you are a proffessor, or master instructor.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 15, 2004)

Gentelmen this thread is drifting further and further from the original post please retun to the topic. 
If you wish to start another thread on your credentials and ways of teaching please do so.


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## r.severe (Jun 16, 2004)

Why thank you Jay, I aim to please even the smaller minded guys..

Why Dale shihan.. what happened?
Are you avoiding the questions?
Should I stop and just say it...
You are not telling the truth on most of what you said?
What a shihan liar.. no way... this would be against the rules of the Bujinkan.. wouldn't it?

If you do not answer them.. then I understand...

Same old BS... 
Bujinkan shihan...? Talk talk talk.. over the web.. but no back bone.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Jay Bell (Jun 16, 2004)

Ironic.  You've strayed long from the Bujinkan path...so much you can't even recognize it...with a "my way is the only way"...and you point fingers about being small minded.

Kudos, champ...keep it up.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 16, 2004)

At the risk of repeating myself:



			
				Dale Seago said:
			
		

> . . .you're not even a legitimate Bujinkan instructor anymore. And that being the case -- especially as you've been "out of the loop" (if you were ever really in it) for years, any opinions you express about the Bujinkan, its instructors, its training methods, etc. are simply not relevant (whether they're favorable or unfavorable).



Ralph, your entire written "body of work" on the 'net makes my points for me far better than I can do myself.


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## Bujingodai (Jun 16, 2004)

My this has turned into a rather nasty yet interesting conversation.

I'm no one personally.

I have seen both Seago Shihan and Ralph move in person at a Tai Kai. Seago Shihan was one of the handful on stage that was not painful to watch at times.
When I first saw Ralph I figured he was just a big guy, however was very impressed to see how fast he could move and very intimidating to say the least, IMO the most real combat I saw in the ballroom completely. That again is just my opinion.
However all the desencion (sp) I am seeing in the Bujinkan, from many many people of all Yudansha ranks begs me to think about why they got to that rank and what pulled them away. Many seem to have the same thoughts so it would seem.
Quality assurance maybe is an issue, ranks handed out too quickly. I can't speak too much of that I am only a Shodan in the Kan, it took me 7 years. 
I see some of Ralphs points, though I think they are a bit much on the animated side.
Odd to see Seago Shihan so fired up. But it's a good discussion.
The major issue I didn't like in the Bujinkan was never being allowed to discuss anything touchy. Such as when Soke dies..........big shhhh. Frig be realistic. What do you think will happen to the Kan after that, isn't that worth discussing.
Another is I have rarely seen a group where almost no (in my experience) dojo moves similarly or the dojo heads speak highly of each other. Wierd.

Sorry I strayed even further but we are on the bitching subject a little.


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## Don Roley (Jun 16, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> So, while it's crucial to train with Soke, it is equally critical to train with the shihan so that you can keep growing and not wander off the path. I've lost count of the times that Soke has pointed to the shihan and said people should train with them. I do it every chance I get; so do my students, and so do all the instructors around my neck of the woods that I know personally.



Just to continue in a subject related to this thread. I think it is important not only for the reason above, or the ones I have given, but also because it is some sort of proof that you are actually interested in learning rather than punching your ticket and puffing up your resume.

After 4th dan, the only person that can give you rank is Hatsumi. Some people at that point seem to only pay lip service to training with anyone other than Hatsumi. Coincidence? I think not. 

When you show up to train with someone who can not give you rank, but can only show you new stuff and help you get better, what does that say about your priorities? I would say it shows that you care more about getting better than in people _thinking_ that you are some sort of master.

The latter case is pretty common in the martial arts. People put in the minimum time to get some sort of recognition and then drop off the radar. This guy who started Tenjindo seems to be a classic case. Nobody seems to have heard of him, even though he claims to have a shodan rank. I believe still that he was a black belt video course student. RVD sells those things with the excuse that there is no other teacher in your area. But that is not the case in Dallas with Luke there. So this guy gets the minimum time in he can, puts it on his resume and starts his onw style. Why am I not impressed?

Some people do this through a variety of means. Tenjindo guy lists a few arts that he has studied. Most arts I know that are worth a damn deserve a lifetime of study before you suck all the marrow out of them. Bujinkan, Silat, Chinese internal arts, all of these could be studied for longer than Tenjindo guy has been alive and not see all there is to see. No matter how much he has seen, there would always be something new, some new aspect he hadn't seen, some instructor that could help him reach new understanding _if_ he were truely interested in getting better rather than impressing others with his extensive martial arts background.

The sad thing is, I have seen numerous examples of guys who start their own arts with even more arts on their resume. I am talking about 10 or more and an average time of study of 6 months or less for each art.

If you claim to teach or study Bujinkan, then it just seems to me as obvious that you would seek out the best instruction possible in the subject that you can. There would never be some place you could stop and rest on your laurals. No matter how good you are, there would always be room for improvement. This guy would be showing up to train with a skilled practicioner like Luke _not_ because it would look good on his resume, but because in an art that he felt proud enough to list on his web site he would always be looking for new insights.

The fact that he has stayed in Dallas and started his own art before he hit 50 and seeks out no further instruction that would threaten his ego is all I need to see and say that this guy should be given a wide berth by serious students.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 16, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> The major issue I didn't like in the Bujinkan was never being allowed to discuss anything touchy. Such as when Soke dies..........big shhhh. Frig be realistic. What do you think will happen to the Kan after that, isn't that worth discussing.



Such things do get discussed, just -- as a matter of respect for Soke and for the Bujinkan itself -- not publicly. In the same way, you wouldn't find me publicly speaking ill of another Bujinkan instructor, even if I disliked him or her.




> Another is I have rarely seen a group where almost no (in my experience) dojo moves similarly or the dojo heads speak highly of each other. Wierd.



You should visit out here some time then.    The San Francisco Bay Area is comparatively "fat" with good instructors who train regularly in Japan with Hatsumi sensei and various shihan, as do many of the students. Everyone moves differently, and the instructors are all friends. Additionally, quite a few people train often with more than one dojo.




			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> When you show up to train with someone who can not give you rank, but can only show you new stuff and help you get better, what does that say about your priorities? I would say it shows that you care more about getting better than in people thinking that you are some sort of master.



I hadn't thought about that, but it's an excellent point. With regard to this Tenjindo guy, as you indicated he doesn't seem to have spent all that much time or reached a very high level in anything. . .and then he apparently decides none of those arts are adequate by themselves and he needs to take "the best" from all of them and create his own style. . .as you pointed out, a fairly young age. Sounds to me like it's just a rationalization to make some money.


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## Bujingodai (Jun 16, 2004)

You make good points Dale, thanks. Yes it has only been in my experience. I have been to about say 10 odd dojo, all very different in what they do and what they think is important.
Frank Hill, Mike Pimblett and Pierre Benoit definatly rank among the top of that list, though all very very different.
It is too bad about the bad mouthing. 
As for Soke, yes I get that...and I at least do appreciate that it is discussed as for such a large organization to go down in flames due to not wishing to face tough questions would be a shame.
I have heard from some Shidoshi many different scenario, thus why I asked. t seemed like it wasn't too cemented.
Like I said I am a nobody in the Kan, I am for the most part these days training under an Indie. Politics were just too much, but thats my reason.
I haven't really scoped the site, but has the Tenjindo guy stated he would grade people in BBT? Is he claiming a big lineage?

anyway thanks Seago Shihan.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 16, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I haven't really scoped the site, but has the Tenjindo guy stated he would grade people in BBT? Is he claiming a big lineage?



No, neither. His organization is the "Ten Jin Do Marital Arts Association" -- yes, marital, not martial.  :boing2:  Website is http://www.tenjindo.com/



> I have been to about say 10 odd dojo, all very different in what they do and what they think is important.



Well, we have some odd ones here too, my own among them. . . :wink2: 



> anyway thanks Seago Shihan.



You're welcome -- but for future reference, I'm more accustomed to just being addressed as "Dale" -- It's what everyone in my dojo calls me.


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## Don Roley (Jun 16, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> I hadn't thought about that, but it's an excellent point. With regard to this Tenjindo guy, as you indicated he doesn't seem to have spent all that much time or reached a very high level in anything. . .and then he apparently decides none of those arts are adequate by themselves and he needs to take "the best" from all of them and create his own style. . .as you pointed out, a fairly young age. Sounds to me like it's just a rationalization to make some money.



Here are his credentials.


> Founder/4th degree black belt: Ten Jin Do
> 
> 1st degree black belt level: Ninpo Taijutsu
> 
> ...



Aside from the art he started, he does not have more than a second dan in anything. And he only lists "experence" (sic) in three arts.

If I were to list all the arts I had experience in, it would be half a page. I have trained with guys like Bob Orlando, Peytonn Quinn, Steve Plinkt and Marc "Animal" MacYoung- all for an hour each. See how easy it is to build up a resume? So I kind of look at a large list of arts with a bit of suspicion.

And what is Kudokan Judo? This guy is not a great speller (I am not going to throw any stones) but I would think that a mistake like that would leap off the page at him if he was truely experienced with the art.


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## Don Roley (Jun 17, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Like all the Japanese teachers and most American instructors, I have a "real-world day job", and my training and teaching has to come after that.



Why Dale, are you taking another shot at Ralph, or was this just a coincidence? I was just looking over this web page and thinking about how close it was to what I hear the Japanese say about the evils of teaching budo for a living. There is even an old poem by Momochi Sandayu that if you use ninpo for personal gain, you will never understand the true nature of it. (Or something to that effect.) Of course, I realized that you and Luke do not teach martial arts full time, but Ralph does. He is the one that all the warnings I have been hearing about how when you teach for a living, you become a budo businessman and not a person who can afford to keep high standards in the face of what the public wants applies to.

Did you mean to take this shot, or was it just a fluke?


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## Dale Seago (Jun 17, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Why Dale, are you taking another shot at Ralph, or was this just a coincidence? I was just looking over this web page and thinking about how close it was to what I hear the Japanese say about the evils of teaching budo for a living. There is even an old poem by Momochi Sandayu that if you use ninpo for personal gain, you will never understand the true nature of it. (Or something to that effect.) Of course, I realized that you and Luke do not teach martial arts full time, but Ralph does. He is the one that all the warnings I have been hearing about how when you teach for a living, you become a budo businessman and not a person who can afford to keep high standards in the face of what the public wants applies to.
> 
> Did you mean to take this shot, or was it just a fluke?



That's a superb page, well worth bookmarking. A lot there would apply equally to this guy teaching Tenjindo Marital Arts.

No, I wasn't specifically digging at Ralph, just pointing out that since I don't teach for a living and have other commitments, I have to put a lot of thought into what is most important in my teaching, what's most effective and efficient in getting the result I want. (The result I want is good budoka who won't feel "lost" when they go and train in Japan.) It seems to work, as I have students who are now shihan themselves.

"Combative fitness", therefore, is not part of the dojo training itself. As an instructor it's not my responsibility to make others fit: It's to enable them to protect themselves and others. Fitness is not especially important in the execution of most techniques -- though it certainly does help in surviving an extended class session or a seminar.    But general fitness is something students need to take care of on their own time.

Digressing to a somewhat related point, in the Bujinkan approach something that "looks combative" isn't necessarily better -- often it's quite the opposite. You need to be able to turn that sort of feeling either on or off, using it selectively, and for the past several years Soke seems to have been emphasizing the ability to do things with no obvious power and projecting no "intention" an opponent can read, not looking like you're "fighting" at all.

Now back to teaching for a living. . .I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that as a thing in itself, depending on "where you are in your life" when you do it. I think if you're a mature individual who has already "made a life for yourself" in some other way it can be great, because your life experiences become a part of your approach to teaching and can make it richer and deeper.

Someone like our Tenjindo marital expert who's young, has a shodan in one thing, a nidan in something else, a brown belt in something further, not only has no martial depth but no depth to his experience of life. This is especially dangerous, both for you and your students, if all you've ever really done is train in and teach martial arts: It leads to a very narrow, shallow perspective. Such a person is likely to be unable to see, for instance, that a ryu is not merely a body of knowledge but a living community.

I have no intention of teaching for a living myself, but I'd consider myself as someone who could do that without creating problems: I'm broadly educated (Master's degree in political science -- undergrad major was originally cultural anthropology); have had a 20-year military career (Marine NCO and commissioned Army officer); have a broad base over many years of civilian experience in security management and consulting; have considerable international experience and exposure to various cultures via both military and civilian travel; and have been training in the Bujinkan for twenty years. All of these things influence the way I teach. Quoting MacYoung on the breadth of stuff that's really necessary to enable people to defend themselves effectively (from the page you linked), "That is why my best advice to you about learning self-defense is to go study, different martial arts, legal issues, psychology, interpersonal skills, cultural anthropology, communication/negotiation etc., etc., because these issues have just as much to do with self-defense as any martial art."

The drawback with the idea is that I probably couldn't actually make a living at it, because real budo doesn't have mass appeal.   So I'd have to jazz up the training with a lot of fitness conditioning so I could parcel out knowledge more gradually and slowly; start having "contests" such as sparring, and making things look really "combative", to keep students motivated and able to have an immediate sense that they're really "doing something". . .because otherwise they might take their money, which I've grown accustomed to considering my money, to a competitor.

Fortunately, for me it's never been about money, which makes it laughable that earlier Ralph said, "How do you help others in the community other than helping yourself to money at seminars?". That's pretty ironic, as I spend far more time going to other people's seminars than giving my own. Locally, I give a low-cost "back from Japan training" seminar a couple of times a year, generally for about 50 bucks a head, and that's it.

Outside the Bay Area I don't do much, for the simple reason that I've never been an especially high-profile guy so I don't get asked very often. The ones I do elsewhere are generally for people who used to train with me who have moved out of the area and relocated elsewhere, so there's already a relationship of trust and mutual regard. I don't set specific fees that hosts are required to meet: My usual arrangement is airfare, space on floor/couch/whatever to roll up in my plaidie, and a bottle of decent Scotch single-malt whisky; if there's some pocket money to bring home it's a nice treat, that's all. The last seminar I did was at the end of February for the Bujinkan campus organization at the University of Southern California, which is headed by a nidan from my dojo who's now down there going to school. For people coming in from off-campus, the cost was $50 for the weekend, two days of training; for the university students themselves there was no charge.


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## r.severe (Jun 17, 2004)

Dale shihan&#8230; 
How wonderful you are today....
What a joyful post about you Dale shihan....
It all about you Dale shihan... well here we are again&#8230; and you can take this how every you wish to twist it and repeat it&#8230; making it sound this or that way..
*First you mislead your words a great deal in your post.. almost close to being a liar at times&#8230; and more or less twist things to get around to your own selfish ego.
*Second when you are confronted you avoid at all cost when asked to back-up your statements regarding your personal and rude and at times hateful comments. In my opinion from the Bujinkan Dojo guidelines you should resign because of your ill metal statements.
*Third&#8230; In my opinion fitness is indeed a major part of ninpo.. as well deeply imbedded in the very nature of the ninjutsu kata and waza. It&#8217;s foolish to say other wise. What kind of guide are you? What kind of self-perfection or self-preservation are you doing as well as teaching&#8230; the very word &#8216;nin&#8217; means to outlast&#8230; hello&#8230;
*Fourth the Japanese should consider coming to America to get beat up on some.. where violence is real and in your face and not a anti part of the Japanese culture. I feel many thing would be &#8216;ironed&#8217; out if they would get out more.. see what&#8217;s real outside their small bubble&#8230; Japanese Bujinkan Aikido in general do look combative to the beginner and non-combative student.. one who is looking for fun and games&#8230; you know&#8230;&#8217;movie stuff&#8217;&#8230;. 
Look at Muramatsu sensei has proven himself combative and very skillful.. what&#8217;s the deal with the other Japanese students&#8230;? My question is why follow someone who in FACT HAS NO FIGHTING EXPERIENCE&#8230; in any system of self-preservation?
When I gave a seminar in Houston two years ago.. 85% of the black belts in the Bujinkan couldn&#8217;t even do push-ups..LOL.. what a joke..
I believe you take fitness personally.. because you smoke&#8230; and that&#8217;s gross in my opinion.. and not very healthy&#8230; as well as a poor example.
I believe with all due respect that your way off.. wrong on most of your views with any combative knowledge in your post&#8230;. Making it look like you have no experience with even sparring..
The reason is if you look combative and have fitness.. meaning mentally, physically and spiritually.. then &#8216;looking like you don&#8217;t&#8217; is very simple.. totally backwards from what you are trying to sell here as &#8216;truth&#8217;.. and my friend it&#8217;s not.. you&#8217;re mainly full of BS&#8230; with combative knowledge&#8230; from what you posted. 
The simple point is this my friend.. you cannot have something taken away if you don&#8217;t have it in the first place&#8230; and this is totally contrary to what you are stating.. in regards to combative motion, knowledge and over all fitness&#8230;.. !!!!
Can you say mickey mouse ninja BS&#8230; ?
Do you in fact have any idea what you are saying in regards to fighting?
I would love taking this to a face to face example and see what it is in fact you are confessing to be able to do&#8230; with what it is you are claiming to be able to do&#8230;. This would stop that BS..
*Fifth you are right.. budo is not about fighting or training to fight&#8230; is art for arts sake.. the first thing in your last post that has legit meaning.. and not BS&#8230; this is why.. in fact I do not do budo.. I train bujutsu and apply it weekly.. in my life, business, and fighting skills as a trainers and guide..
And before you come back and stick your foot far up your rear.. beware that this does not mean competition training&#8230; or sport as you would like for it to mean. It&#8217;s smacking, popping, falling, hitting, pinching, biting, throwing, sweeping, kneeing, elbowing, painful and joyful combative training.. to find my own ignorance. In other words being honest with myself.. and others..
Like what I said.. you&#8217;re not being honest.. it might have something to do with your training methodology Dale shihan&#8230; get it yet? 
*Sixth don&#8217;t forget I&#8217;ve seen you do Bujinkan stuff..move, teach and demo skills&#8230; but NEVER fighting skills.. I&#8217;ve known you for many many years Dale shihan&#8230; and have many tapes with you on them&#8230;
So I&#8217;m not talking out my back side like you are about me and my personal training, living, or teaching&#8230; 
Like I said.. you should be ashamed of yourself and ponder what it is you believe and say in public about others&#8230; it&#8217;s not very becoming&#8230;. You just are not being honest&#8230; 

I believe J B... I went slow and it was simple enough for even you to understand... and try to keep away from the same old.. "it's his way or no way" BS...

Dale shihan.. whay not visit Dallas agin and see for yourself and stop the lies.. ?

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Dale Seago (Jun 17, 2004)

At the risk of repeating myself:




> _Originally Posted by Dale Seago_
> . . .you're not even a legitimate Bujinkan instructor anymore. And that being the case -- especially as you've been "out of the loop" (if you were ever really in it) for years, any opinions you express about the Bujinkan, its instructors, its training methods, etc. are simply not relevant (whether they're favorable or unfavorable).



Ralph, your entire written "body of work" on the 'net makes my points for me far better than I can do myself.


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## Don Roley (Jun 17, 2004)

What a nasty, mean spirited post by Ralph Severe! It is not something we can really debate with substance, just a series of attacks. I am so glad it appears that Dale Seago is right and Severe is not a current representative of the Bujinkan. We do not need such petty attitudes and actions. Not that we are free of idiots mind you.


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## r.severe (Jun 17, 2004)

"pot calling the kettle black"

Both of you are so weak...

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Blind (Jun 17, 2004)

If I am not mistaken, Hatsumi sensei has said that you will never understand the truth of martial arts if you stick to the idea of what is strong or weak, actually I think the truth to this is we are all weak and can be killed very easily(how many people have slipped and died while taking a shower one wonders)...to believe you are strong is a really dangerous mind set, what you seem to be saying is you can beat these guys in a fight, if it was a fair fight maybe(no offence to anyone here)...I have seen you move, you were quite fast and definately powerful, like one of my teachers at home actually, but really with the attitude you are displaying you will be the ultimate loser(my unenlightened opinion). Really you talk about sparring and say that most Bujinkan people are crap at it, yep your probably right and I agree that many Bujin people probably go ahead too early on the feeling ride and forget about resistance of the opponent, I have trained with a lot of people who I feel I could crunch really easily, but if someone gets good and thats what we are all working to I believe, or at least I think thats what most peoples intention is it may get distorted, size can be as much a hindrance as a help, at most peoples skill level being big will get you further sure, a good big man will beat a good little man or whatever, but I believe the essence of the art contains a lot more than that, if you believe the stories in Essence of ninjutsu then it is quite plainly illustrated(Jutaro Vs. Choshiryu something about the butterfly dance method I don`t have a reference here).Anyway this is my first ever post and really I prefer not to because I am still a very ignorant person, I like reading though and (un?)fortunately I have too much time at a computer so I do nothing but read these things, you do raise some good points and definately you get conversation going which seems to provoke a lot of constructive conversation. My one wish is that you stop using the I have been in real fights line, good for you you, I once ended up hospitalizing a person myself (to my personal disgust)and have had a few other events that mostly came about because of lack of awareness, I am still alive, probably I still would be had I not trained, I just think that you for a person who seems quite intelligent, have wrapped yourself up in the I can win and I am strong way of thinking, and by the way it is a pointless statement saying stuff like you guys just hide on the net, because where are you writing that??

That is my first ever post, I don`t like writing much because it is so easily misunderstood, but I just want to learn and while I get good points from this forum on a very rare occasion, it gets boring reading the same thing over and over, if I had my way Frank Dux discussion should be banned, who cares if someone wants to waste their pocket money on the guy to live a fantasy? Take care.


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## Blind (Jun 18, 2004)

Mybe I should clarify a little, I am not trying to say you aren`t skillfull, it just sounds like you were talking the muscle there, and I did wander around a bit much, basically to call people weak is a matter of opinion(though some people may be more right than others), and you may be right, but really is it necessary? Maybe you are speaking about them as people, and not of their skill or power, but if thats the case then why write it in public? Do you need to defend your ego that much? A person who is confident usually doesn`t resort to that kind of thing, and you do seem very confident. Anyway I re read my last post and it sounds a little attacking which its not meant to, I just think comments like the last one are not needed.That said-

One other thing I was thinking, do you really think you give your students the ability to survive? I get the impression you are quite a natural when it comes to the combat thing, but is that something that can be taught? I have wondered about this myself, some people who may not even have martial arts training, you can tell that at all costs its better to go around, others(and we have all met people like this) who may be very highly graded you stop and think, that guy has no idea(and its not just the Bujinkan-I am not debating rank) You know what I mean? I just wonder what your take on this is, I agree that people can through training and hardship become skilled and very capable of looking after themselves, but I am talking about the kind of person who was born for it, and I guess that could be a topic in itself. I come from a reasonably sheltered upbringing living in the country, a fight there generally stops when a man goes down(though worse happens), however in the city where know one knows you the limits of decency get lifted, a guy goes down, you don`t know him, why stop kicking?? I am not that sort of person but they are out there, and in my training the first thing I got told was no martial art will help if your unconscious. I am just wondering how you feel that a person can through what I imagine is really quite safe training you can instill the presence of mind required to survive?? Again I will stress I am not commenting on you as a martial artist nor anyone else, I am not qualified, just wondering what you think. Also the questions while directed at Ralph can be commented on by anyone...


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## Deflecting_the_Storm (Jun 18, 2004)

in teaching the art of survival, yes some people have it while others dont. But its the whole fact of re programming their reflexes to be able to respond to threats and attacks. I have had students that just naturally pick up techniques and when fighting lose all of the training and go back to what they know best. But then I have seen students who have never gotten certain things down and are struggling through my class, knockout and injury quite quickly. As far as the politics in Buijinkan, I have no idea. I am a kenpo man myself!


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## Flatlander (Jun 18, 2004)

I must credit_ most_ of you for your ability to carry on a discussion in the same room as someone who is certainly unbalanced. Gentlemen, pat yourselves on the back. Man oh man. Don't let him out of the Ninjustsu forum. He'll eat the children.


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## r.severe (Jun 19, 2004)

Boy oh boy.. ok.. I&#8217;ll give it a shot&#8230;
&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;If I am not mistaken, Hatsumi sensei has said that you will never understand the truth of martial arts if you stick to the idea of what is strong or weak, actually I think the truth to this is we are all weak and can be killed very easily(how many people have slipped and died while taking a shower one wonders)...to believe you are strong is a really dangerous mind set, what you seem to be saying is you can beat these guys in a fight, if it was a fair fight maybe(no offence to anyone here)...&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

Blind, you are correct. In my own research and development I do not ponder strong or weak. I just work on long term cause and effect. Maybe you are misreading something I wrote. And maybe it is because you do not know me then in that cause yes, you most likely misunderstand what I&#8217;m saying. This could be true because of the nature the written word can be intrepid over the web. For one I do not base my martial skills or living skills on power or strength. That would be fruitless and not good sight into the future. I give myself more credit than that. 
With what you are saying from what Hatsumi sensei has stated before is true, very wise and a fact of laws of nature. 

&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;Mybe I should clarify a little, I am not trying to say you aren`t skillfull, it just sounds like you were talking the muscle there, and I did wander around a bit much, basically to call people weak is a matter of opinion(though some people may be more right than others), and you may be right, but really is it necessary? Maybe you are speaking about them as people, and not of their skill or power, but if thats the case then why write it in public?&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

Blind, is what necessary? I don&#8217;t believe I called anyone weak. If you are referring to Dale shihan and Donny sensei.. well &#8216;weak&#8217; in terms of BS and their agenda.. yes. They twist and mislead without first hand knowledge of their subject in terms of personal hateful attacks. It&#8217;s weak because they do it over the web behind the protection of their doors&#8230;. That&#8217;s weak.  

&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;Do you need to defend your ego that much?&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221; 

Blind, I am defending the laws of nature. Ego and fear are part of those. I feel to many feel what is said by sheep is taken as truth because they have been to a foreign country or live in a foreign country or have some ranking that in reality doesn&#8217;t mean anything. Get my point? This is what I in fact defend.. the little guy who doesn&#8217;t know better.

&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;A person who is confident usually doesn`t resort to that kind of thing, and you do seem very confident. Anyway I re read my last post and it sounds a little attacking which its not meant to, I just think comments like the last one are not needed. One other thing I was thinking, do you really think you give your students the ability to survive?&#8221;&#8221;&#8221; 

Blind, In regards to self-confidence&#8230; I have mine and they have theirs..this is a forum..  well blind, I just roll with them and give back what they give to me.. no disrespect to them.. they are just wandering around with their ego and fear that the bad Ralph is telling some truth and this blows their kingdom down&#8230; but they get what they give&#8230; I believe I&#8217;m fair.. and honest.. major point is I don&#8217;t know them and don&#8217;t say I know them or their teaching methods&#8230; or their lives.. in they post that they know mine.. they don&#8217;t..  I just see what they put on the table.. in writing.. and respond to that.. if they say stupid things then I respond to that.. not personal.. just that..
If you are a drug user.. smoker.. and talk trash about healthy living.. then you should be called for it.. if you talk about fight with little or no fighting experience then you should be called for it.. let&#8217;s get it out in the open.. get it? I have never had a student not survive that has trained with me within my knowledge&#8230; I do know I pass on information on living and surviving as well as other instructors who help here and I feel they do their best to help others&#8230; but in the end it is a personal responsibility  of the person in question to be able to survive. 

&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;I get the impression you are quite a natural when it comes to the combat thing, but is that something that can be taught?&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

Blind, I&#8217;m not sure.. you&#8217;ll have to drop by and see for yourself if the human beings here can in fact defend themselves..  the only way to understand is to test and re-test your skills&#8230; reason comes from knowledge.. faith and belief comes from judgment&#8230; 

&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;I have wondered about this myself, some people who may not even have martial arts training, you can tell that at all costs its better to go around, others(and we have all met people like this) who may be very highly graded you stop and think, that guy has no idea(and its not just the Bujinkan-I am not debating rank) You know what I mean?&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

Blind, No I do not. Maybe because I do not see the question. 

&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;I just wonder what your take on this is, I agree that people can through training and hardship become skilled and very capable of looking after themselves, but I am talking about the kind of person who was born for it, and I guess that could be a topic in itself. I come from a reasonably sheltered upbringing living in the country, a fight there generally stops when a man goes down(though worse happens), however in the city where know one knows you the limits of decency get lifted, a guy goes down, you don`t know him, why stop kicking?? I am not that sort of person but they are out there, and in my training the first thing I got told was no martial art will help if your unconscious. I am just wondering how you feel that a person can through what I imagine is really quite safe training you can instill the presence of mind required to survive?? &#8220;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

Blind, I use shock training for this. Mainly at the beginning of every class. It is natural to touch others.. but really not in our society.. we tend to keep away and avoid others.. this in turn causes misunderstandings. 
So shock is the beginning stage. Getting use to being touched, grabbed, pinched, bitten, jabbed, etc.. many need shock training just to be looked at.. LOL.. people even die from being looked at.. macho BS..
You seem to be lucky living away from all the BS of the city&#8230; I too was raise in the country as a youth&#8230; I feel very lucky..

&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;Again I will stress I am not commenting on you as a martial artist nor anyone else, I am not qualified, just wondering what you think. Also the questions while directed at Ralph can be commented on by anyone...&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

Blind, I don&#8217;t mine being questioned or having questions.. thanks.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Jun 19, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> I must credit_ most_ of you for your ability to carry on a discussion in the same room as someone who is certainly unbalanced. Gentlemen, pat yourselves on the back.



I think it is important to always keep the attitude that you would show in court on the internet. You may be totally opposed toa person, but you never drop that ability to talk without threats, goading or challenging someone to a fight.

The last is important. If you are talking about whether someone is a member of the Bujinkan or not, not only does beating on each other not change the fact that the person may not be a member, but the guys I know who have great amounts of real _verifiable_ experience with street violence treat the matter of fighting too seriously to use over petty disputes. Even when I disected Sojobow for all of his deception and posturing, I never even talked about doing physical violence to him.

So the fact that a member of this discussion has resorted to such tactics is fairly disturbing. Luckily, he seems to not be a Bujinkan member anymore and does not represent the orginization at all. The fact that he is allowed to do such on a board that prevents things I beleive are much tamer is puzzling.


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## ronhughen (Jun 19, 2004)

Ahhhh . . . BIG sigh . . . .



This argument about Ralph shihans authenticity as a bujinkan instructor is very old.  Ive been training with Ralph shihan for more than 15 years now and I think this has been going on all that time.  Ralph shihan during that time has been promoted several times by the Soke, so I am not sure how anyone can rightly question that he is a member of the bujinkan.  



I also find it kind of funny how over time individuals make comments about Ralph shihans teachings yet apparently have no direct experience with them.  I went to a seminar by Dale shihan a little over a year ago and found him teaching almost exactly what Ralph shihan teaches . . . I even thought Dale and Ralph shihans move almost identically (taking account for very different body types).  The main difference I noticed is that Ralph shihan has a very real and  . . . scary energy expressed in his demonstrations (one of the guys in our dojo commented that at time when he is uke its scary how real and believable the feeling of what Ralph shihan is delivering is . . . thats why hes my teacher, because I need to believe that the stuff can actually work, without an uke that appears to be cooperating).  Hes big, hes fast, hes exactly precise and accurate with his movements and strikes.  Ive experienced all this first hand for many years.  Those who are saying differently are not speaking from actual experienced based knowledge and really should not be saying those things. So, again, many criticisms about Ralph shihan must be based on nothing but imagination, certainly not direct experience.  If the criticisms are not based or real facts, what are they based on?  Personally, I feel that people object to Ralph shihans approach because he appears to go beyond what Hatsumi sensei is teaching (when in fact, I believe Ralph shihan is doing EXACTLY what Hatsumi sensei advocates . . . I hear hear Hatsumi sensei on his videos stressing that he is showing basic techniques and we must explore variations constantly).



Over the years I have encountered people that have actually attended a seminar or training sessions with Ralph shihan and have not only been impressed with him, but also with the quality of his students.  (and, by the way, Ralph shihan gave a seminar here in Utah a year ago, and NONE of the local bujinkan students attended . . . which to me seemed odd . . . that they would pass on the opportunity to get some direct experience with someone they must have heard so much about).  Yes, he has students that are some of the most skillful and talented martial artists I have ever seen.  Eddie Moore, Shannon Seaback, Neil Stewart, Ben Adams.  These guys are real fighters.  If youve never visited the dojo nor attended a Ralph shihan seminar then you really cant have an opinion about his teaching or his students competencies.  Training in the Kamiyama dojo emphasizes a variety of realistic sparring activities, using various levels of appropriate protection to allow students to use realistic energies to apply what they practice in forms and exercises.  We spar empty handed and with weapons.  



Anyway, I just wanted to jump in and offer a little defense of Ralph shihan based on my actual experience with him, which I dont believe many of those shooting off criticisms actually have.  I know the Kamiyama dojo is always open and welcoming to any of you to visit and check it out.  Please do so then tell us about your opinion based on your experience.  Whether positive or negative, with actual experience your opinion will be credible.



(Note, Ralph shihan also video tapes many of his classes and might send you some samples of what goes on in classes if he was asked . . . then you might see  . . . )


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## r.severe (Jun 20, 2004)

Why thank you Ron sensei...
Even if I will not renew my shidoshikai membership this Dec... I will remain a senior ranked Bujinkan member under Hatsumi sensei ""but not"" a Bujinkan member per-say as in the BS games and rear kissing... for rank.. or being one of the mickey mouse gang...

I don't believe anyone can talk trash around what Ron sensei has stated.. more or less very simple.. even Jay can underdstand it..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Jun 20, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> I will remain a senior ranked Bujinkan member under Hatsumi sensei ""but not"" a Bujinkan member per-say as in the BS games and rear kissing... for rank.. or being one of the mickey mouse gang...



I do not see how you can be one and not the other. You need to be a member of the shidoshikai and a Bujinkan dues paying member to teach using the Bujinkan name.

It is that simple.


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## TimoS (Jun 20, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I do not see how you can be one and not the other. You need to be a member of the shidoshikai and a Bujinkan dues paying member to teach using the Bujinkan name.



Somehow, I had always thought that you would have to be part of the "parent organization" (in this case Bujinkan) to be able to advance and receive training. From what I've gathered from discussions between you and mr. Severe, this doesn't seem to be the case. Is it really more or less voluntary in Bujinkan to be a member ? As I don't practise Bujinkan, I'm only curious, although in my opinion being part of "parent organization" also shows that you respect your teacher (easy for me to say, our worldwide "organization" in Tauramuso ryu is nothing when compared in size to Bujinkan, so it is easier for teachers to enforce the rule that you have to be part of the tradition and it also means that there isn't so much politics involved)


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## Don Roley (Jun 20, 2004)

TimoS said:
			
		

> Somehow, I had always thought that you would have to be part of the "parent organization" (in this case Bujinkan) to be able to advance and receive training. From what I've gathered from discussions between you and mr. Severe, this doesn't seem to be the case.



Indeed. I am confused by Ralph's contradictory statements.

As I have been told constantly, you need to be a member in good standing and a member of the shidoshikai to teach Bujinkan. (I have never had an interest in teaching and avoided being a member of the shidoshikai.) If you leave the orginization, you cease being able to use the Bujinkan name and have a Bujinkan dojo. Kind of like a Doctor that leaves the AMA I guess.

So you need to be a member of the shidoshikai, right? Well, where in the following is a mention of Ralph being a member of the shidoshikai?



> I don't recall saying I didn't teach the 6 ryuha from the teachings of Hatsumi sensei.. did I ?
> So how is it you feel I do not ?
> I teach the tenchijin.. which I have from 1986... when I was given permission to teach the Bujinkan arts.
> So.. funny you would say or imply that I in fact do not...
> ...



The last part is kind of important. "_In fact you can be a student of the Bujinkan Dojo, ranked in the Bujinkan Dojo and NOT be a member or a shidoshikai member... It has been this way from what I remember... oh 1986....
Once you are in fact ranked doesn't mean you are not that rank if you die, walk away from the circus, train in other arts.. or just don't care to be part of the vortex of BS..._ So it would seem that Ralph believes that once he achieves rank, he never has to do anything else like renew his membership and follow the rules about such things. Ralph seems to think that because he believes he knows what Hatsumi is doing, he can teach. The thing is, several other people like Brian McCarthy, Wayne L. Roy, Fumio Manaka, Robert Bussey, etc, have not been members for a long time and are not allowed to say they are Bujinkan instructors because they do not belong to the orginization.

As an aside, I have heard stories about how people have been given rank at a Tai Kai and the like, only to have problems later on when the paperwork was examined (if at all) once Hatsumi got back to Japan. I had a friend dodge rank for a long time because no one knew what rank he was and assumed he was higher than he actually was. A friend squealed and he got the rank. And Tai Kais were open to everyone the last time I attended one before moving to Japan (in 1991 I think.)



			
				TimoS said:
			
		

> I'm only curious, although in my opinion being part of "parent organization" also shows that you respect your teacher



Yes, I think respecting your teacher is a big part of budo, and part of the concern many have with what Ralph does. I do not know of many who would approve of someone who will not talk face to face with the person they claim to be their teacher about the complaints they have with the way things are done but rather talk about it out of their sight in public. I have talked with my teacher about some aspects of his training and he listened. I have never talked about them with anyone else. That is respect in my book. Not threatening others or making fun of their names, etc, is also a sign of respect.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 20, 2004)

ronhughen said:
			
		

> . . .so I am not sure how anyone can rightly question that he is a member of the bujinkan.



It's pretty simple, as I explained earlier and as Don has reiterated above.



> I also find it kind of funny how over time individuals make comments about Ralph shihans teachings yet apparently have no direct experience with them.  I went to a seminar by Dale shihan a little over a year ago and found him teaching almost exactly what Ralph shihan teaches . . . I even thought Dale and Ralph shihans move almost identically (taking account for very different body types).



Nowhere in this thread have I said that Ralph is in any sense a poor martial artist. In fact, I said to him "I have not suggested and am not suggesting that you suck or what you do sucks."

It's interesting that you see me & Ralph as doing essentially the same things and moving essentially the same way. One of my judan-level students who has not relocated out of the area still trains with me every week when his law enforcement job permits. And pretty much every week, I'll at some point spot something which will cause me to make sure he actually feels what I'm doing. The result: "Oh, that's not what I thought was going on at all." If this still happens with a shihan who has trained with me for many years and still trains with me now, and who also trains in Japan, it's fascinating that you have such fine-tuned observation as to be able to tell that I & Ralph are doing the same thing. By the same token, it's interesting that Ralph can tell what Hatsumi sensei is doing just from years of watching videos.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting that I fully understand everything Soke does myself. Far from it. But at least I make a point of regularly training with him and with some of the Japanese shihan who are closest to him.




> The main difference I noticed is that Ralph shihan has a very real and  . . . scary energy expressed in his demonstrations (one of the guys in our dojo commented that at time when he is uke its scary how real and believable the feeling of what Ralph shihan is delivering is . . . thats why hes my teacher, because I need to believe that the stuff can actually work, without an uke that appears to be cooperating).



That's a rather significant difference. _For that particular seminar_, I was mostly emphasizing -- and I kept saying it over and over -- NOT projecting any sort of "attacking intention" an opponent can read or that an outside observer would pick up by watching your movement. There should not be any appearance or feeling that a "fight" is going on. Part of the idea was to ensure the opponent is NOT scared, because if he is he may react unthinkingly in a way you did not anticipate and which might cause you some difficulty. He should think and feel that everything is going just fine until it's too late; and he should die not feeling he "lost" or was "beaten", but simply puzzled and confused.



> . . .(and, by the way, Ralph shihan gave a seminar here in Utah a year ago, and NONE of the local bujinkan students attended . . . which to me seemed odd . . . that they would pass on the opportunity to get some direct experience with someone they must have heard so much about).



It's what they call free market forces at work. It's likely that some people just don't feel that someone who goes to such lengths to present himself as a "fighter", who has spent a long time "beating the crap out of people", etc., is the sort of role model they want to learn from, no matter how skilled he may be.

In closing, just a minor technical point: Your references to "Ralph shihan". In the Bujinkan today the term "shihan" is used to refer to people holding the rank of judan and above. Ralph does not hold that rank and, for reasons I and Ralph have both presented earlier in the thread, is not likely to at any time in the immediately foreseeable future. However, since it appears that he and you aren't in the Bujinkan, I guess you're free to do whatever you like in that regard.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 20, 2004)

It's probably obvious that Ralph Severe and I are approaching things from very different philosophical perspectives: Ralph sees himself as a fighter, while Hatsumi sensei is trying, through the Bujinkan, to produce warriors. You can get a better sense of the latter by reading my first post, titled "Warrior Creed and Robert Humphrey" -- the one with the photo of Jack Hoban -- on this page:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35147&perpage=25&pagenumber=8

(Jack, by the way, is now 15th dan in the Bujinkan. He was my first teacher and is still a friend and mentor.)

Prof. Humphrey's values training has been "blessed" as fitting for the Bujinkan via Hatsumi sensei's award of a posthumous honorary 10th dan rank to him on his passing.


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## Blind (Jun 20, 2004)

To Ralph, fair enough in regard to your reply to my meandering post, the bit you didn`t understand was not well worded I guess, I was just looking for a comment on what you think about the fact that some people are quite naturally very dangerous while others are not(which was answered anyway)...I think everyone has the potential to be, so I won`t bother coming to your dojo to see if your students can defend themselves, I am sure they can(I am a long way from the states too)....anyone can with or without martial training...just some better than others. I try not to think bad of anything anyone does because at the end of the day, everyone is alone with themselves and in their knowledge of god and everything else, but I still beleive if you are saying(and maybe you aren`t) that you teach real combat and survival, that`s a big claim, to make an analogy, I could listen to Mozart my entire life, eventually I might become good at mimicking his work, but that wouldn`t make me Mozart and I wouldn`t be able to create works like he did. In that respect I can see what you say about some people who might think they are true students of budo when all they do is go to a class and "copy" a master with little understanding of the larger picture. That said I think without someone to point the way or not being someone with the ability to see someone is pointing the way it would be pretty easy to get lost. You seem to have decided you can stand on your own two feet and go your own way which is a hard thing to do, the fact you feel you no longer need Hatsumi Sensei to hold your hand says to me you are a brave person indeed. I am not a personal student of his but I feel that had I the opportunity I would be very slow to walk away from him, very slow, in fact I think to go the budo path without a wall like him to bounce of is to walk a really fine line. You are older than myself and all I can say is good luck, personally I would go more the way Dale is, you have the rest of your life to not have a guy like Hatsumi sensei around, but while he is here(this world) to go out on your own to me is a very bold move (like I said, good luck). Hatsumi sensei at this point is really so far along the line I doubt anyone except some of the people who have trained a really long time can see what he is doing, anyway I had made my point and you answered, I just saw the "you are so weak line" and felt it wasn`t called for.I will shut up now and return to my own little world. Thanks for your reply. One thing I am interested in though, what is shock training?(I could guess but please give me some examples of how you do it). 
One final point, the teachers I really respect don`t even talk about how effective they are, I respect a teacher a lot more for who he teaches and how he teaches than what he claims to teach, just because a person is good does not make him worthy to be a teacher.IMO.


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## ronhughen (Jun 20, 2004)

Dale Shihan,



I tried to be careful not to personally attack or accuse anybody directly in my post . . . so with that said let me say I really enjoyed your seminar and learned a lot from it.  I understood the message you were teaching with projecting non intent at the time.  I have also experienced Ralph shihan demonstrating some of the kind of subtitles you spoke of.  I just wanted to point out that Ralph shihan expresses an energy I have never seen in anybody else.  (I dont feel its appropriate to address what you were saying about my perceptions compared to your judan student, since you dont really know anything about the nature of my perceptions, and I dont know anything about the judan you refer to . . .).



You said that you and Ralph shihan are approaching things from very different philosophical perspectives, but I respectfully disagree, and say instead, you may be more alike than either of you recognize. . . I see the difference being like the difference between the Beatles Come together and Aerosmiths Come together . . . same words . . . same tune, different style.  I cant say which I like better, but theres something to be learned from both . . .  I did not find much in your seminar that was essentially different from what I have learned from Ralph shihan, just different from a style perspective . . . but,  I only had contact with you for about 12 hours, so perhaps I have not experienced enough of you to appreciate bigger difference you imply.



One question . . . are you saying that being a fighter is not part of being a warrior?  Sun Tzu said those are victorious that know when to fight and when not to fight, which to me means that to make that decision one MUST  be able to fight, one MUST be capable of fighting to have the choice of fighting or not.  Ralph shihan actually has two separate programs or systems . . . Art of Combat is fighting training . . . Ninjutsu is self perfection/life skills training . . . with a little less emphasis on fighting attitude.  Through training in both we students pursue living like warriors (and I believe being a warrior is about how one lives . . . which includes not only physical training, but also the study of almost everything around us and  perfecting ways we conduct ourselves in our lives . . . ie; how we treat others, how we take care of ourselves . . . our health . . .).  Sir, dont you agree that warrior-ship encompasses all this?



I would enjoy attending your seminars again when you are back in my area, however I have received enough negative emails from those locally and in neighboring states that I dont think I would feel comfortable attending such events.  Getting back to your warrior comments, one of these emails was from a student (Im not sure if he is yours or Bill senseis student) who sent me a very long, very angry email expressing how upset he is that Ralph shihan gives his students warrior names, and that we are not warriors, and that Ralph shihan is not a warrior and he (the student emailing me) only considers those that have been under fire to be true warriors . . . (he also made a lot of other comments about me personally, some quite insulting, surprising me seeing that he does not actually even know me . . . in fact I initiated the email as a friendly way to try to get to know him, to honestly try to get involved with these groups in my area, but I have been very turned off by such negative attitudes and expressions and behaviors) . . . this seems to go against the philosophy you spoke of in your post.  Other students of local groups here have also expressed very negative feelings towards me in emails and at seminars, apparently simply because I am a student of Ralph shihan (people that have essentially NO direct experience knowing me as a person).  To me this is not the kind of spirit I seek to be around or part of (its not like the warrior spirit taught in the kamiyama dojo), so I pursue learning experiences elsewhere (and honestly, there are SOOOOOOO many sources from where one can learn). It would surprise me to hear you say this is the kind of attitude that Hatsumi sensei promotes or condones.  The situation is a shame, because I personally thought you were very interesting and someone I could have enjoyed learning from.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 20, 2004)

ronhughen said:
			
		

> One question . . . are you saying that being a fighter is not part of being a warrior?  Sun Tzu said those are victorious that know when to fight and when not to fight, which to me means that to make that decision one MUST  be able to fight, one MUST be capable of fighting to have the choice of fighting or not.



Certainly we agree on this much at least. In the Sword Forum thread I linked above, go back one page and see my post titled "'Physical-Moral' Courage" and the extracts I quoted from Ambrose Hollingworth Redmoon's essay "No Peaceful Warriors": http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35147&perpage=25&pagenumber=7

Redmoon is sadly gone from us, but I enjoyed some correspondence with him after the essay was published.


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## Don Roley (Jun 20, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> That's a rather significant difference. _For that particular seminar_, I was mostly emphasizing -- and I kept saying it over and over -- NOT projecting any sort of "attacking intention" an opponent can read or that an outside observer would pick up by watching your movement. There should not be any appearance or feeling that a "fight" is going on. Part of the idea was to ensure the opponent is NOT scared, because if he is he may react unthinkingly in a way you did not anticipate and which might cause you some difficulty. He should think and feel that everything is going just fine until it's too late; and he should die not feeling he "lost" or was "beaten", but simply puzzled and confused.



Just to send this thread spinnining off on another tangent......

How many people have seen the movies "Yojimbo" and "Sanjuro" with Toshiro Mifune? Eveidently they were very close to the classical samurai. Much more so that the crud that comes out today.

Ever watch just how cool and non- threatening Mifune's charecter is? He slices through villians and his dinner with the same type of attitude. In at least one point he is walking down the street in the middle of a battle and he is attacked. He draws his sword and slices with one motion and resheathes it while continuing to walk.

Now that is one cold mutha.....

And that it pretty close to what the classical warrior (as compared with fighter) of Japan was.

It is an interesting hobby to study the aspects of human conflict. Not just artificial sports like what goes on in the ring, but the various enrgies and such that surround a real life or death encounter. Stone cold killers are rare. The vast majority of people have to warm themselves up. Peytonn Quinn (RMCTA.com) came up with the term "woof" for the snarling and such that goes on before a real fight. Part of it is testing someone to see if they flinch or act like prey, but a lot of it is to hype oneself up before throwing a blow. He takes the name from what goes on between dogs before they start to fight. In some cases, there does not even have to be violence as one achieves dominence over the other. But the attacks by dogs without the "woof" is pretty much confined to those with special training. The same goes for humans.

Quinn relaized that a lot of what goes on in a real fight is not covered by the majority of martial arts training in America. Since the typical person has to build themselves up for a fight, the first guy to start screaming and pressing the verbal attack before launching a sucker punch has the advantage since the other guy is still trying to first deal with the idea of building up to a combat mindset. By the time he has, it is too late. The typical person can not fight cold and without the screaming that goes on before a fight and so they end up at a disadvantage to those that take the initiative. Stone cold killer types are able to deal with it without showing any hostile intent beforehand.

The guy that needs to scream, yell and act arrogently macho is a fighter. The guy who can go from zero to sixty in a split second is a warrior. Both deal with violence, but the latter is so much more effective than the former. I know a few stone cold killers. Give me a screaming maniac anyday! These guys don't get flustered, don't get cowed and you never know what they are going to do or when.

So, I try not to show intent, or be swayed by emotion. I am not longer impressed by those that show a lot of macho attitude. And after reading this web site maybe others will cease to be awed by those that have to use a lot of swaggering in their life to get by. But if a modern day Toshiro Mifune walks down the street towards me, I am running like the hounds of hell are on my tail.


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## r.severe (Jun 21, 2004)

&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;Thanks for your reply. One thing I am interested in though, what is shock training?(I could guess but please give me some examples of how you do it).&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;  

Blind, 
First off you need to understand there is a difference between bujutsu, budo, ninjutsu and ninpo. They are not the same as training methodology goes. And with that they are very different as far as physiology, reasons for training, spiritual, etc.. goes.. very different.
When one says budo it is different than ninpo or bugei or kobujutsu or kobudo&#8230;not the same&#8230; 
Okay? 
The body, mind and heart gets hit&#8230; and then naturally the body, mind and heart goes into shock.
Shock is the state of feeling not fighters naturally go into if they are not trained correctly for combative encounters. Much like one of the lower mega-dans or higher mega-dans would if they got hit and were not trained or training for fighting.
Why does this happen to such renowned martial artist and such highly ranked martial artist.. good question..
Because they do not train warriorship correctly.. they train for art and demos of that art. You know the slow, stop and go, no energy, no power, elitist type budo safe training methodology.  
Shock comes in many ways.. snappy, deep impact, crushing, pooping, etc&#8230; each have to be explored and researched then trained to understand it and how to create it during training. (importantly, unarmed and weaponry both have shock)&#8230;.. 
I was introduced to shock training in kickboxing in the late 70&#8217;s. we mainly used focus mitts to hit the body all over till it was conditioned to receive this treatment during fighting.. 
Over the years I researched many different types of shock training from many different martial systems. They all have something to offer. Savate, systema, panatukan, pencak silat, etc.. all have it&#8230;
My Dojo kihon waza has a great deal of shock training in it&#8230; to help with being able to have a immovable heart.. or to hide the heart during hardships&#8230; I hope you understand this&#8230; meaning.

&#8220;&#8221;&#8221;One final point, the teachers I really respect don`t even talk about how effective they are, I respect a teacher a lot more for who he teaches and how he teaches than what he claims to teach, just because a person is good does not make him worthy to be a teacher.IMO.&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;

Blind, That is really wonderful of them&#8230; 
It is mainly said.. a few points&#8230;
Those who are fighters laugh at those who teach fighting without fighting experience.
Those who cannot fight, teach.
Those not willing to fight sit by and watch those you can from the sideline.
Those who draw a sword for the sake of art never feel the need to draw it for self-preservation.
Those who never go to the post talk about how deadly they are and how they would hurt someone if they do.
Those who sit in a office with no warrior experience and send young men to die in their name are politicians.
 Do you get my point?
A teacher is a human being or an animal who researches the very nature of the laws of nature to pass them on to his family or fiends.. and at times students&#8230; 
My question to you Blind is.. how do these human being or animals teach if they do not have experience in what they confess they teach as the truth?
They are mainly BSers&#8230; looking for a handout&#8230; rank, cash, fame, etc&#8230;
Teachers first learn, research, train, experiment the skills they learned, researched and trained&#8230; to KNOW if in fact what they are doing is useful, has a reason, and can work for others like themselves&#8230;
If a teacher is not willing to or will not tell you of his/her experiences and why they can teach what they can.. then most likely they are full of it&#8230;
If they are fit and young enough, but will not get out on the mat weekly with their students and fight.. then what is it that they are hiding or running from?
Most likely Blind they are afraid they will be embarrassed or get their butt kicked and lose their cash flow or ranking.. fame.. etc&#8230;
I believe you should enjoy your training.. which ever you choose..
If it is with a BSer.. then ok.. if you like it and feel it is safe for you.. then go for it..
I wouldn't know how to explain to say.. Ron sensei that I wouldn't spar with him because I'm to high ranked.. or some other excuse...
What kind of BS would he say back to me..?
He is a very educated adult... with many years of experience in karate and other martial arts... and I don't feel my BS would go over with him to well...
I believe you understand what I'm saying...

Thanks...

By the way.. you do not have to be a member of the Bujinkan Dojo to be ranked by Hatsumi sensei.. or teach others your skills you have learned from Hatsumi sensei...
And by the way... I do not pay $$$ for being a martial artist.. I am what I am.. you don't have to pay $$$ to be who you are..
And by the way.. why not answer the question put to you Dale shihan.. why avoid them..? Something to hide?
OOOOPPPPSSS. ONE MORE THING.. rank doesn't make you a 'master'... skill does... and that title comes from your friends and family who respect you for how they view you as a human being... how you treat others.. and your ability to do what you say you will do.. honor, respect...loyality.. 

ralph severe


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## Dale Seago (Jun 21, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> By the way.. you do not have to be a member of the Bujinkan Dojo to be ranked by Hatsumi sensei.. or teach others your skills you have learned from Hatsumi sensei...



It's true that Soke has given honorary ranks for various reasons to non-members of the Bujinkan who have never even trained in it. Rank alone, however, whether honorary or otherwise, doesn't give someone any teaching authority.

From the hard-copy Rules of the Bujinkan Dojo given to Shidoshi:



> *2. All members must have a membership card for the year, issued by the Hombu. There are two types of membership card: General Membership Card, and Shidoshi-Kai Membership Card.
> 
> (i) The General Membership Card applies to members of the Bujinkan Dojo, whether ungraded, kyu-grade, or dan-grade.
> 
> ...


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## Dale Seago (Jun 21, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I think it is important to always keep the attitude that you would show in court on the internet. You may be totally opposed toa person, but you never drop that ability to talk without threats, goading or challenging someone to a fight.
> 
> The last is important. If you are talking about whether someone is a member of the Bujinkan or not, not only does beating on each other not change the fact that the person may not be a member, but the guys I know who have great amounts of real _verifiable_ experience with street violence treat the matter of fighting too seriously to use over petty disputes. Even when I disected Sojobow for all of his deception and posturing, I never even talked about doing physical violence to him.
> 
> So the fact that a member of this discussion has resorted to such tactics is fairly disturbing. Luckily, he seems to not be a Bujinkan member anymore and does not represent the orginization at all. The fact that he is allowed to do such on a board that prevents things I beleive are much tamer is puzzling.



I agree regarding "manner of presentation". Once you put something out there on the 'net you can't take it back, and you have no control over how it may be used. Were Ralph to someday seriously injure or kill someone, for instance -- even by sheer accident -- his commentaries in threads such as this would be useful to a prosecutor.

You never know who will end up seeing what you write. For example: Hatsumi sensei's Hombu Administrator in Japan, whose English is excellent, has been aware of this thread since June 17.


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## r.severe (Jun 21, 2004)

Putting aside all the sheepeople BS that is written in the name of ego and fear by want-to-be warriors.... masters megadan who should have the title becuase of the poor living skills and inadequate abilities to truthfully say they have no combative-fighting experience.....

I feel honesty is the most important...

If you cannot be honest.. then what's the use?
Why not answer the questions...
Why not address the statements put here about your lies and misleading statements about me.. Dale shihan..?

I'm sure the mental police in Japan (around the world) reads those too..

Do you have someting to hide?

Honesty...

Look at Donny sensei post.. he has no experience other than what is told to him, he reads or watches in a seminar... when it comes to combative -fighting experience..
He has posted the same BS for years... talking about conflict experience is a 'void' with him.. which is most likely in his good nature to stay away from it.. good for him.

*****The point of this thread is.. no matter whos butt you are kissing it is still kissing butt... and that's the good old boys club where you get your ranking... because with all truth.. that is what you are saying.. in your post..
I DO NOT WISH TO KISS BUTT OR BE PART OF YOUR CLUB...*****

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Dale Seago (Jun 21, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> . . .you're not even a legitimate Bujinkan instructor anymore. And that being the case -- especially as you've been "out of the loop" (if you were ever really in it) for years, any opinions you express about the Bujinkan, its instructors, its training methods, etc. are simply not relevant (whether they're favorable or unfavorable).


*Ralph, your entire written "body of work" on the 'net makes my points for me far better than I can do myself.*


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## Cryozombie (Jun 21, 2004)

Guys...

Regardless of who is "Right or Wrong",  if there even is a Right or Wrong here...

Can we leave the Ego's, personal attacks, and "My Sensei can beat up your sensei" attitudes at the door and discuss budo, not strut our ego's over who has the most confirmed kills under his belt?

Thanks!


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## Bujingodai (Jun 21, 2004)

Is that possible Techno?


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## Cryozombie (Jun 21, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Is that possible Techno?



Man, I cant speak for anyone else... and even I slip... but *I* really really try. 

Damn, did I just do it?


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## r.severe (Jun 21, 2004)

Dale shihan.. ha ha ha .. I didn't fell you would address the subject.. you always run and just avoid.. like a good ninja would.. leaving your lies here as truth.. when knowing in your heart you have lied...

Well I do have 6 and half more months on my shidoshikai membership... LOL... so what can you say.. and I'm still a member... so.. what can you say ?
Nothing really..
So why not get back to the subject Dale shihan... and answer the questions of right and wrong.. honesty and integrity...???????????????????????

Maybe it is you do not find these to be the qualities of a martial artist or of a Bujinkan Dojo member..??????????? Honesty, right and wrong and integrity?
Do you..LOL.. 

I do.
So in 6 and half months we will see if in fact I do re-sign up on my membership as a shidoshikai member.. and if I do what will you have to say then? More or less the same as now...

The problem is.. I still am what I am.. you cannot change that...
You cannot change I have trained and still are training in the ryuha of Hatsumi sensei Bujinkan Dojo.. as well as other Japanese ryu. You cannot change that..
You cannot change I am ranked by the soke, Hatsumi sensei...
You cannot change the methods in which I train or teach...

But you can change your own living conditions and your own unwholesome state of mind.

In my opinion and from what I have experienced from you over the past 16 years.. you are ill and promote ill feelings amoung human beings... and I do not feel that is becoming as a good person or as a member of the Bujinkan Dojo... and of course not as a guide for others...

Pretty simple.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 21, 2004)

MOD WARNING

RETURN THIS THREAD TO ITS ORIGINAL SUBJECT MATTER

Moderator Note. 
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

TSHADOWCHASER
Sheldon Bedell


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## clayton (Jun 21, 2004)

ralph,
 i've been reading your posts on ebudo and here for a long while. you always bost and brag about your aparant  combat skills. weather you have some or not i really dont think anyone really cares. you seem to do whatever you want, and thats fine too. but by your postings i truely can call you an a$$hole. the way you come off on people is like that bully trying to take someones lunch money. dale isnt going to address your threats ,as he shouldn't...... if someone threatens you, do you always jump up and make them mash patato's? are you that afraid of yourself?
  this come to my dojo and lets settle this is really pathetic. some of dales long time (and current)students are military,police,sheriff, and correctional guards. but you wont hear him mention this to justify what he teach's.  he also teaches alot rougher in his class training than he does abroad, depending on what is being taught. he tries to convey whats being done in japan as best as he can(and its amazing how accurate that is).
 so to sum it all up. its always entertaining to read your posts. i look forward to them, kind of like the uncle that gets too drunk at functions and makes a fool of himself.


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## althaur (Jun 21, 2004)

Thanks Clayton for saying that and giving me time to laugh before my response.  Ralph, I'm sure that you are good at what you do.  I'm sure that I would have a blast training with you and your students.  I'm also sure that you are not the poster child for perfect human.  Attacking Dale's character was quite over board.  Dale happens to be one of the nicest, most caring people I know.  To say that he is "ill" and promotes illness in others was at first infuriating and then laughable.  It's amazing how you historically seem to attack character when aren't getting your way.  Maybe you should question your own "health".  

BTW, which is worse, smoking every once in a while, or being grossly over weight?

Josh


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## Cryozombie (Jun 21, 2004)

GUYS... This thread is about Tenjindo.

If the thread is over... stop posting.  The whole Ninjutsu forum is getting out of hand.  Lets TRY and talk about Ninjutsu. Please.


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## r.severe (Jun 22, 2004)

Hey Mr pure evil...
I believe enough has been said.. it's been fun.. funny.

The truth will come out when my new DVD set is ready to be advertised in BLACK BELT mag in 6 to 8 months... the authenticity of what I do will be exposed in those..
Lets see what happens then...
And after they are reviewed.. if you don't feel they are 'right'.. then say so..

Thanks for the fun Dale shihan.. wish you were just honest.
Next..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Dale Seago (Jun 22, 2004)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> MOD WARNING
> 
> RETURN THIS THREAD TO ITS ORIGINAL SUBJECT MATTER
> 
> ...



I'll shut up and be nice, pending verification from Japan on Mr. Severe's Bujinkan status. His earlier statement, "YES, I have broken away from the mickey mouse show.. or circus as its called.. The politics of the Bujinkan and the rat race to ranking and kissing butt. YOU ARE CORRECT !", appears to be at odds with what he's saying now; so perhaps I can be forgiven for some confusion on the issue.


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## KenpoTess (Jun 22, 2004)

Thread Locked and shall be reviewed by Admins

~Tess
-MT S. Mod-


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## Seig (Jun 24, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> Thread Locked and shall be reviewed by Admins
> 
> ~Tess
> -MT S. Mod-


After reviewing this thread, we have decided that it shall remain locked at this time. PM Warnings are being sent.


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