# Am I over reacting?



## Jai (May 28, 2008)

I'm wondering if it's just me and the way I have been previously trained, or If I have an issue here.

I have been studying Shotokan now for just about six months. I have been praised by my Sensei as well as other high ranking black belts many times over for the work I am putting into my studies and how well I am doing transforming myself from a TKD student/instructor back into being a Karateka. Now the problem I am having is, we have three other black belts in my dojo currently. One is very part time, the other two are either unable or refuse to help with the lower ranks. We have two brown belts, both should test for black before the end of the year. Of the two of them, only one puts any interest into helping. Last night the white belts where working on material for the upcomming testing. One of them was really having a hard time with some things, so I offered some help. Sensei jumped me for it and pulled our not so caring brown belt over to finish up the session, to which he just rolled his eyes and did as little as possible to get through the rest of class. Then Sensei turns around and tells me to assist with another white belt group that really needs no extra help. This is not the first time this has happened either. If I try and help someone, I'm told it's not my place, then I'm sent elsewhere to help, sometimes with others who have studied Shotokan longer then me and hold higher rank. Can someone help me understand this?


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## MarkBarlow (May 28, 2008)

While you have previous experience and are obviously advancing quickly, 6 months seems like a very short time to prepare you to help advanced students. It's unfortunate that the assisting black belt is so unenthusiastic but I can see your sensei's point.  

At this early stage in your Shotokan training, I'd concentrate on myself and help when asked to do so by the sensei.


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## Jai (May 28, 2008)

I totally agree, but my issue is, If I'm good enough to work with the higher ranks why not the lower after such a short time? *shrugs* Maybe it is just me after all lol


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## OnlyAnEgg (May 28, 2008)

It could be that the higher ranks have enough background to discuss your instruction with you, should there be some differences.  A low rank would likely accept everything you say.


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## MarkBarlow (May 28, 2008)

Personally, I much prefer students with your attitude to the selfish "what's in it for me?" behavior of the black belt you mentioned.  There's a great line in "The Replacements" about "winners always want the ball".  I find that winners in the dojo always are pushing themselves and others to be better and go beyond their perceived limits.  Your willingness to train harder than others and to help fellow students displays your superior spirit.

Keep up the good work.


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## Jai (May 28, 2008)

Good points, thank you both very much


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## Shotochem (May 28, 2008)

It's a Japanese karate thing.  They have been there longer than you and it is their place to help before you.  The instructor may see this as a reflection on him and therefore make them assist.

-Marc-


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## MA-Caver (May 28, 2008)

While totally unrelated to MA, I was in this same situation this evening. While I have roughly 15+ years of experience (call it 4th dan by comparison to MA rank/experience) in the training and teaching of what we were doing, others who have 20+ years (6th & 7th dans) were stepping all over me and basically pushed me to the "back of the room" as it were (figuratively speaking of course). I only felt a _slight_ resentment (which should be normal for anyone... especially with my years into doing what we were doing) but sat back and was talking one of the other "students" as we observed the older teachers helping this guy out giving this and that advice on what to do. 
He was having a lot of difficulty and I saw exactly what was wrong and even voiced it out but was "ignored". :idunno: maybe I just have a severe charisma deficit. 
It is for the senior instructor (particularly of that dojo) to make the call on who is and who isn't going to help instruct and whom they're going to. This is part of the world of Japanese Martial Arts as previously stated. Tradition stands. 
Don't let it sweat you. If you can help out where you can then by all means do so. 
I would let my own students help out, so long as they knew exactly WHY the struggling (newer) students were having difficulty. If not then they (the "tutors") need to step-aside and let experience take over. 
In time you will have the experience and be recognized by those who choose to recognize it. They, you will find, will be the ones you truly wish to be with in the end.

Yes I was talking about caving. But I think the instructing part applies to anything and everything.


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## Nomad (May 29, 2008)

Jai said:


> One is very part time, the other two are *either unable or refuse to help with the lower ranks*. We have two brown belts, both should test for black before the end of the year. Of the two of them, *only one puts any interest into helping*.


 
To me, this is the real problem here, and I'd question how someone gets a black belt (or is in consideration for one) without being willing or able to help lower belts?  If you can't show someone else how the technique is done, what are the odds that you're doing it right yourself?  IMO, teaching is one of the best ways to cement the material and gain a better understanding of what you're doing.

It may just be a difference in dojo culture, but these points are a huge part of whether or not someone is ready and deserving of a BB in our organization.  If the head instructor doesn't place any emphasis on these qualities, I'd be a bit concerned about the future of the place.


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## jim777 (May 30, 2008)

That's something I've noticed as well between Japanese styles and TKD. In TKD, the willingness to instruct others is one of the requirements for black belt. In karate, it seems completely normal that some black belts have no interest at all in teaching or helping to instruct. I found it very odd at the beginning but have just gotten used to it now.

I think in your case, your instructor may rather have you help with senior students so your guidance is on the finer points of moves they already know; so they may gain from your insight. Like...how better to possibly shift weight in a kick delivery or something for example. The beginners though, they need to learn the Karate way of doing things like stances and even simply moving back and forth (no C stepping in Shotokan, right?  ) so you might be perceived as a possible hindrance to the white belts developement where you are an asset to higher ranking students. Just a thought.

I do really applaud your attitude though, so just keep at it and and I'm sure you'll be welcomed as an instructor when you've got your blackbelt. I'd say help where you're asked, and just let your instructor know you'll always be ready to help where he sees fit to put you. 

jim


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## twendkata71 (May 31, 2008)

In my experience, usually the 1st and 2nd dans are usually focused on their own development still and that may be why they do not wish to help with the novice students. They should help their juniors. This happens more dojo where sport karate competition is important.  By 3rd dan they are usually mature and experienced enough to want to help and teach  their own classes as well. This is not always the case.  
It is good eperience for the under dans to help teaching.


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## JohnASE (Jun 13, 2008)

Jai said:


> If I try and help someone, I'm told it's not my place, then I'm sent elsewhere to help



Since he asks you, he obviously values your help.  Maybe it's just a question of helping when you're not asked.  Maybe your sensei feels he should determine who helps whom and when.  Maybe that's why the senior students don't freely offer their help.  Maybe your sensei wants you to focus on your own training unless he asks you to do something else.


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## Svart (Aug 12, 2008)

I came across a similar thing the other night. I went to check out a friend of mines dojang, and while sitting with him watching the junior class before his class was on, I pointed out a couple of green belts doing their forms who were leaving their supporting foot pointing forward when trying to perform a side or high kick. As a result their hips werent aligning and the kicks seemed very akward and unbalanced. 
As someone who always tries to get rid of bad habits before they set in I told him to go and correct them. He replied saying that he was not allowed though. He is a black tip brown belt but apparantly the master had told him before that it was not his place.
I really didnt understand this as at my dojang, if someone notices something with technique or habit that needs correction, then they help. Even if its a white belt to a white belt.


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## Tez3 (Aug 12, 2008)

At my former karate club everyone felt they could correct and instruct you and it made you feel very small. You'd be doing a technique with one person who'd show you something then someone would tell you to do it another way and yet another person would tell you another way. It got very frustrating. You'd be shown how to do something by the instructor and be practising it when someone would tell you that was wrong!
Now as an instructor myself I much prefer to ask someone to help rather than have unsolicited help all over the place, that way you can 'quality control'. It can undermine an instructor if all the other grades are also instructing. However I do also believe that all grades should be willing to help but should wait until asked, this is probably coloured by my previous experiences at a low grade I admit.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 12, 2008)

Jai said:


> I'm wondering if it's just me and the way I have been previously trained, or If I have an issue here.
> 
> I have been studying Shotokan now for just about six months. I have been praised by my Sensei as well as other high ranking black belts many times over for the work I am putting into my studies and how well I am doing transforming myself from a TKD student/instructor back into being a Karateka. Now the problem I am having is, we have three other black belts in my dojo currently. One is very part time, the other two are either unable or refuse to help with the lower ranks. We have two brown belts, both should test for black before the end of the year. Of the two of them, only one puts any interest into helping. Last night the white belts where working on material for the upcomming testing. One of them was really having a hard time with some things, so I offered some help. Sensei jumped me for it and pulled our not so caring brown belt over to finish up the session, to which he just rolled his eyes and did as little as possible to get through the rest of class. Then Sensei turns around and tells me to assist with another white belt group that really needs no extra help. This is not the first time this has happened either. If I try and help someone, I'm told it's not my place, then I'm sent elsewhere to help, sometimes with others who have studied Shotokan longer then me and hold higher rank. Can someone help me understand this?


Been there. Me thinks this is why the other Blackbelts don't teach. I would discuss your concerns, just for your own mental health, with your instructor. He may be a one lesson at a time kinda guy, concerned you are not doing it right, or simply wants to be the teacher and everyone else is a student. 
Sean


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## Svart (Aug 13, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> At my former karate club everyone felt they could correct and instruct you and it made you feel very small. You'd be doing a technique with one person who'd show you something then someone would tell you to do it another way and yet another person would tell you another way. It got very frustrating. You'd be shown how to do something by the instructor and be practising it when someone would tell you that was wrong!
> Now as an instructor myself I much prefer to ask someone to help rather than have unsolicited help all over the place, that way you can 'quality control'. It can undermine an instructor if all the other grades are also instructing. However I do also believe that all grades should be willing to help but should wait until asked, this is probably coloured by my previous experiences at a low grade I admit.



Yeah that is a fair arguement. Was a small club and the instructor was pretty new, he just didnt seem to notice it when watching the practicing. Makes me a little worried that he wont correct them.


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## Grenadier (Aug 13, 2008)

In many dojos and dojangs, you'll find a good number of yudansha who have no interest in assuming an instructor's role in any way, shape, or form.  If that's what they want to do, then so be it.  After all, some people simply aren't cut out to help others, while others would rather prefer to be the learner at all times.  

At the very least, these same black belts are still going to be able to help you, simply be serving as good examples of what to do, hopefully.  Even if their techniques aren't as good as some of the others, they're still going to be a good notch above that which the neophytes have, and those neophytes can gather some knowledge just be observing them.  

As for you helping, just do what your sensei says.  He's probably waiting for a bit more time, so that you are more familiar with the system itself.  By putting you with people who might not need the help as much as some of the others, it could be that this is also more of a learning experience for you, as a potential teacher, too.  

Relax!  Enjoy the training, and if others aren't up to par, then that's their problem.  As long as you are getting something out of the training, then at least you're getting your money's worth.


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## KELLYG (Aug 13, 2008)

In the description of your complaint you stated that you were instructor in TKD and switched over to another art.  I think that maybe you stepped on some toes by going out on your own to assist.  I think that this allowed the Master to feel as if he had lost some control over his class.  The task to assigning whom is to help train whom is at his direction. It also makes me think that the other junior/brown/black belts have this understanding and hang back till given the OK to do. This attitude to me is also a little sad, when you have someone willing to help that is not being given the opportunity to do so.


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## jkembry (Aug 13, 2008)

jim777 said:


> That's something I've noticed as well between Japanese styles and TKD. In TKD, the willingness to instruct others is one of the requirements for black belt. In karate, it seems completely normal that some black belts have no interest at all in teaching or helping to instruct. I found it very odd at the beginning but have just gotten used to it now.
> 
> I think in your case, your instructor may rather have you help with senior students so your guidance is on the finer points of moves they already know; so they may gain from your insight. Like...how better to possibly shift weight in a kick delivery or something for example. The beginners though, they need to learn the Karate way of doing things like stances and even simply moving back and forth (no C stepping in Shotokan, right?  ) so you might be perceived as a possible hindrance to the white belts developement where you are an asset to higher ranking students. Just a thought.
> 
> ...




That is pretty much how my Sensei works it.  He doesn't seem to mind us helping out...but he likes to assign who we help...I think he does this so that both sides get the maximum benefit out of it.    As a purple belt in Uechi-ryu, I have worked some with white and yellow belts in the dojo and find that I seem to get more out of this than those I help out.

Perhaps this is the way it is suppose to work.


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## kwaichang (Aug 13, 2008)

Svart said:


> , if someone notices something with technique or habit that needs correction, then they help. Even if its a white belt to a white belt.


 
Indeed this has been my experience over the yrs of training.  All of my instructors were of this opinion and I can see; by reading this forum; that I was most fortunate in studying with such people.


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## Steve (Aug 13, 2008)

At my school, our coach doesn't mind people helping other people.  It's the nature of things.  We do a lot of sparring and drilling, and there's a lot of opportunity to offer tips or minor corrections that often are the difference between success and failure.  Experimentation is also encouraged.

In your situation (and that of some others in the thread), this isn't just about MA.  It's about leadership.  Ultimately, I can make my case to my boss, but once he decides on a course of action, that's the direction we go.  It's the same in a school.  There may be things that you will just have to accept about your teacher.  Ideosyncracies that, good or bad, are just the way he does things.  You may suggest a change... or maybe not.  But don't be surprised if he's perfectly happy with how he does things and is unlikely to change.  And if you find that you cannot accept those things, you may need to think about a different school.

It's pretty common when people ask about BJJ schools to recommend that they spend some time at the school.  We're lucky right now in BJJ that the quality of instruction is pretty high across the board.  So, the main difference between schools is personality.  Does the personality of the school mesh with your own?  That's really the key.  The people in the school/dojo/dojang will become a second family, but only if you pick the school that suits you.  And the personality of the school is largely dependent upon the personality and style of the owner.  Is he too laid back for you?  Too strict?  Not strict enough?  All of these things matter.

So, I guess the bottom line is that, I don't think you're over reacting, but you may be asking the wrong questions.  It's not so much whether you're doing the right thing.  Your teacher seems to be clear about what he wants you to do.  It's a matter of whether you're okay with it, even though it doesn't make sense.  Does it matter so much to you that you can't get past it?


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 14, 2008)

I have 12 years experience training and teaching a Japanese martial art.  I recently switched to a Chinese art, and I plan on keeping my mouth shut for a long, LONG time, even if I see a fellow student doing something I may perceive as incorrect.

It's unfortunate that the shodans don't feel any need to help out, but it really is up to sensei to make the call, and probably for good reason.  As an instructor, I can't begin to tell you how many times I saw a student do a technique or kata wrong, and when I asked, "Where'd you learn that?" they'd say, "_(fill in the name of a kyu ranked student)_ taught me."  Then I'm stuck UN-teaching the error.


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## kwaichang (Aug 15, 2008)

Sounds like "fists of fury" syndrome.


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## JWLuiza (Aug 15, 2008)

I tend to think differently during official classes vs. informal workouts. BTW, hopefully you are doing both. During classes, follow the instructors lead. Shut up and listen. Do whatever the norm is for a class.  During informal workouts (weekends at friends houses, off night workouts, early morning get togethers, whatever) have conversations.  "You know in TKD, we did it this way and it feels better to me... What does our instructor say about it? Maybe that would be a good question..."

And a great way to deal with the issue in class is to approach the instructor with your notice and ask if you are doing it wrong.  e.g. "I was taught to rotate my base foot during kicking, but I noticed some students not rotating. Which way should I be doing this?" Taking this approach in a strict dojo would be a very easy way for the point to be addressed.

Just my .o2$


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