# Knees and Elbows in TKD?



## myusername (Mar 5, 2008)

Hi folks, 

I've been training in Tae Kwon-do for about a month now and my Instructor teaches us that if we miss a punch to follow through with the elbow. We are also taught effective elbow strikes in combination with other strikes. 

In addition to this he also teaches the use of knee strikes and I witnessed the higher grades practicing a particularly lethal looking technique where one would grab the head and pull it down for a knee strike in the face. 

We are also told to vary the practicing of our basic punches by imagining that the non-punching arm that you generally pull back is grabbing and pulling the opponant towards your punch.

I mention this as being new to this art and enthusiastic to find out lots about it I have visited various forums and sites and many claim that Tae Kwon-do does not incorporate elbow and knee strikes and does not deal with attacking at close range. 

I'm aware that there are many different organisations that will teach slightly differently depending on whether their primary focus is sport or self defence but I am just curious to know if what my Sabum is teaching is traditional Tae Kwon-do or adapted? Does traditional Tae Kwon-do have elbow and knee strikes? It's more a curiousity as, what ever the answer is, it would not effect my training as I have a lot of faith in my instructor and what he his teaching.

I suppose I must add that we also spend a lot of time on long range kicking techniques and also practice sparring under TAGB (ITF style) sporting rules. I haven't been there long enough to see or compete in any competitions but a number of his students do and have won medals in sparring and patterns.


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## terryl965 (Mar 5, 2008)

Tae Kwon Do has knee's and elbow strikes YES. If your are in it for the sport than propbaly not. TKD has alot of great SD principle in it and alot of great instructors still teach them. If you are enjoying your training than that is all that matters.


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## igillman (Mar 5, 2008)

To elaborate on the last post. If you are going to do Olympic Sparring then no TKD does not have knees and elbows but if you are defending yourself then yes it does. I think that we are going to see a split in TKD down the road and you will end up with two major divisions, Olympic and Self Defence.


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## crushing (Mar 5, 2008)

Depending on the forms/hyung you do you will find knee and elbow strikes there too.  I know you will find them in the Pyung Ahns, Palgwes and TaeGeuks.


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## exile (Mar 5, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Tae Kwon Do has knee's and elbow strikes YES. If your are in it for the sport than propbaly not. TKD has alot of great SD principle in it and alot of great instructors still teach them. If you are enjoying your training than that is all that matters.



Right on, Terry!

Look at Palgwes 5 through 8, and you'll see a ton of elbow strikes depicted. In face, while Palgwe 8 has exactly two kicks, it displays, by my reckoning,  maybe fifteen or sixteen elbow strikes (depending on how you interpret the applications of certain moves; according to my instructor, for example, the so-called multiple chambering movements in the hyung are to be interpreted as elbow strikes). 

Knees are another story&#8212;as has emerged in various other recent discussions, TKD hyungs often seem to use high(er) kicks where Okinawan/Japanese kata that are the sources for subsequences of these hyungs use low kicks or knees. But we spend a lot of time on the use of knee strikes, in connection with grab-and-pull continuations to deflection/striking responses when confronted with a punching attack. A typical scenario: in the face of an oncoming roundhouse punch, step _into_ the attack, inside the punch, and slam a palm-heel strike to the attacker's lower jaw/neck; immediely seize his shoulders to drag him forward and ram your knee into his stomach, bringing his upper body low. A hard horizonal, down-sloping elbow strike to the back of his lowered head/neck will almost certainly leave him on the ground, considering better ways of spending his evening next time...

This sort of thing can be done very, very fast and hard. Because you're close in, the techs can be executed very quickly, with terrific impact, in rapid succession. There's a lot of this sort of thing in TKD; don't be misled by the tournament point-scoring rules, which ban the most effective close-in fighting techniques in the art!


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## myusername (Mar 5, 2008)

Thank you for your replies they are making interesting reading. It appears from your answers that my instructor isn't teaching an adapted form of Tae Kwon-Do but teaching the traditional self defence principles alongside the sport sparring. Like I said it was more of a curiousity as I am enjoying my classes (and as Terry said that is the important issue) but it is nice to know if what you are learning is traditional or adapted.

Crushing and Exile thank you for your posts on the patterns. I am still learning the Sajo Jirugi numbers 1 & 2 at the moment so I haven't started learning the full patterns as of yet. The patterns we concentrate on in the coloured belt syllabus are *Chon-Ji*, *Dan-Gun*, *Do-San*, *Won-Hyo*, *Yul-Gok*, *Joong-Gun*, *Toi-Gye*, *Hwa-Rang* and *Choong-Moo*. Like I said, I haven't learnt any of these yet but do any of these have close distance fighting applications or fall under the cateogories of Pyung Ahns, Palgwes and TaeGeuks?


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## exile (Mar 5, 2008)

myusername said:


> Thank you for your replies they are making interesting reading. I*t appears from your answers that my instructor isn't teaching an adapted form of Tae Kwon-Do but teaching the traditional self defence principles alongside the sport sparring.*



I agree, and you're fortunate to have found an instructor who takes that angle in forming his curriculum. A lot of people never get the SD side of things.



myusername said:


> Like I said it was more of a curiousity as I am enjoying my classes (and as Terry said that is the important issue) but it is nice to know if what you are learning is traditional or adapted.
> 
> Crushing and Exile thank you for your posts on the patterns. I am still learning the Sajo Jirugi numbers 1 & 2 at the moment so I haven't started learning the full patterns as of yet. The patterns we concentrate on in the coloured belt syllabus are *Chon-Ji*, *Dan-Gun*, *Do-San*, *Won-Hyo*, *Yul-Gok*, *Joong-Gun*, *Toi-Gye*, *Hwa-Rang* and *Choong-Moo*. Like I said, I haven't learnt any of these yet but do any of these have close distance fighting applications or fall under the cateogories of Pyung Ahns, Palgwes and TaeGeuks?



You're in an ITF school, apparently, so you won't be getting the Palgwes and Taegeuks (unless your instructor, like some others who I've heard about in MT discussions, offers forms from both the ITF and KKW sets). But there are plenty of knee/elbow apps in the Ch'ang Hon forms, from what I've heard. One of our own members, Stuart A(nslow), has written a very, very good book exploring some of the combat applications in the ITF forms (_Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul - Real Applications to the ITF Patterns: Vol 1_) that covers many of the hyungs you are/will be learning. If this is, as I gather from what you're saying, of particular interest to you, Stuart's book would be a very wise investment...


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## Kacey (Mar 5, 2008)

myusername said:


> Thank you for your replies they are making interesting reading. It appears from your answers that my instructor isn't teaching an adapted form of Tae Kwon-Do but teaching the traditional self defence principles alongside the sport sparring. Like I said it was more of a curiousity as I am enjoying my classes (and as Terry said that is the important issue) but it is nice to know if what you are learning is traditional or adapted.
> 
> Crushing and Exile thank you for your posts on the patterns. I am still learning the Sajo Jirugi numbers 1 & 2 at the moment so I haven't started learning the full patterns as of yet. The patterns we concentrate on in the coloured belt syllabus are *Chon-Ji*, *Dan-Gun*, *Do-San*, *Won-Hyo*, *Yul-Gok*, *Joong-Gun*, *Toi-Gye*, *Hwa-Rang* and *Choong-Moo*. Like I said, I haven't learnt any of these yet but do any of these have close distance fighting applications or fall under the cateogories of Pyung Ahns, Palgwes and TaeGeuks?



You are doing the Ch'ang H'on pattern set (tuls), which is what I teach myself.  There are plenty of knee and elbow strikes in these patterns; the knee to face (or chest, depending on relative size of the participants) you're probably seeing is in Hwa-Rang or Choong-Moo, as they both have it.  There are plenty of close-, middle, and long-range applications in each, as your instructor will no doubt show you - it sounds like he's already working on them now.  While reference texts are good, you really can't learn from a book - also, your instructor is teaching the sequence he is for a reason - so I'd suggest talking to other students first rather than buying a book; if you do want a reference text, I'd ask your instructor to recommend one, so that it fits with his teaching methods and sequence.

Good luck!


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## IcemanSK (Mar 5, 2008)

It's good to see that your instructor goes beyond what are legal sparring techniques to show all of the weapons at your disposal, username.

One thing about using elbows in SD that is seldom discussed (but is important to note) is that it saves your hands! MA flicks show folks "slugging it out" for a long time & then their hands are fine the next day! Punching someone in the mouth or other hard target puts one at risk for damaging one's hands in an SD situation. Making contact with an elbow reduces the risk injury to the one throwing the technique & maxiumizes effectiveness. 

Kudos to your instructor for teaching the expanded Art.


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## terryl965 (Mar 5, 2008)

igillman said:


> To elaborate on the last post. If you are going to do Olympic Sparring then no TKD does not have knees and elbows but if you are defending yourself then yes it does. I think that we are going to see a split in TKD down the road and you will end up with two major divisions, Olympic and Self Defence.


 
This is not a true statement to the word Olympic style that teaches the Tae Gueks does have knee's and elbows they are incorporated int he Poomsae so really all TKD has knee's and elbows just whether or not they teach SD principle along with there Olympic style. Sorry just had to clearify it for everyone.


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## myusername (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks Kacey, your post explains what I was perhaps seeing the higher grades doing when they were using knee to the face techniques. It's nice to know that you teach the same patterns that I will eventually be learning!

I have just ordered the book from Amazon that Exile recommended (Cheers for the recommendation Exile). I know I haven't learnt the patterns themselves yet but Amazon stated that they only had one left in stock so I thought I'd order one now rather than kick myself later! I take your point though Kacey and would trust my instructors interpretatons of the patterns first and foremost and learn them in his sequence and by his method, but it will also be interesting for me to look at similar or alternative interpretations to the same patterns.

I do feel fortunate to have the instructor I have teaching me Tae Kwon-Do and after reading the encouraging comments in answer to this thread this has been confirmed for me even more so.


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## foot2face (Mar 5, 2008)

With regards to knees in TKD, a knee is just a kick that is not extended, which is why TKD stresses very deliberate and dynamic cambering of kicks. In an unintentional way, if you are throwing a kick and your adversary moves in before you can extend it they will impact on a hard knee strike.  In an international manner, if are very close to your opponent you may not have the room to deliver a fully extended kick but you may have the room necessary to chamber it, which is in fact a powerful knee strike.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 5, 2008)

Lots and lots of knee and elbow strikes in old style Tae Kwon Do. (ITF)


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## cflick (Mar 5, 2008)

I actually practice WTF Taekwondo but instead of the Taeguek forms we do the Ch'ang H'on forms found in ITF.
I do know the the use of the elbows and knees are in quite a few of these forms. Toe-Gae for instance move 20 you grab the head or the shoulders of the would be attackers and in move 21 you bring your knee and your hands together simultaneously.
Yul-Kok in moves 23,24 and 26,27 you executing a middle section side kick and after, you slip your hand over and behind the "opponents" head. And then you simultaneously bring your elbow and there head together.

The use of elbows are also seen in quite a few of the one-step sparring defensive techniques.

So going on what they have said you will see it in the self defense aspect of TKD as the elbow and knee are devastating in close range, but because of this they most be left out of the Sport of TKD (Sparring).


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## Balrog (Mar 6, 2008)

crushing said:


> Depending on the forms/hyung you do you will find knee and elbow strikes there too. I know you will find them in the Pyung Ahns, Palgwes and TaeGeuks.


 
And in the Songahm forms as well.


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## K31 (Mar 6, 2008)

We are taught the techniques you describe although I don't believe using the knee-to-the-face technique would be legal since we cannot legally hit the face.

I've used knees successfully though as a blocking technique. I was taught this by one of the assistant BBs.


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