# "Yes, sir!" "Wha?"



## JT_the_Ninja (Oct 10, 2008)

The discussion of rank, &c. has made me wonder how strictly other schools enforce "Yes, sir!" and "Yes, ma'am!" when answering.

I don't know how many times I've had people look at me weird, outside of the dojang, when I answer them "Yes, sir!" or "Yes, ma'am!" because it's been drilled so far into my head. I count it a good thing, since I always show respect (especially to my bosses), but there have also been times when I've been told I don't really need to be "so formal." 

This ever happen to any of you?


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## exile (Oct 10, 2008)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> The discussion of rank, &c. has made me wonder how strictly other schools enforce "Yes, sir!" and "Yes, ma'am!" when answering.
> 
> I don't know how many times I've had people look at me weird, outside of the dojang, when I answer them "Yes, sir!" or "Yes, ma'am!" because it's been drilled so far into my head. I count it a good thing, since I always show respect (especially to my bosses), but there have also been times when I've been told I don't really need to be "so formal."
> 
> This ever happen to any of you?



I do it conscientiously, but I'm the only one. We have a lot of in- and outflow in our school, and people are pretty casual. My instructor himself takes a casual approach in this respect, because we use one of the rec centers as our base; if it were our own dojang premises, he'd be a lot firmer about this kind of etiquette issue (bowing in and out is still something he insists on, however). Sometimes, particularly when we have a large new incoming group right after quarterly registration, I feel a little odd about calling back 'Yes, sir', or more accurately, I feel that _they_ feel a bit odd about me doing that; but I think it needs to be done, to remind them to our instructor is someone they need to focus and _pay attention_ to.


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## bluekey88 (Oct 10, 2008)

We enfore the "yes Sir" inside the dojang.  Things are more casual outside.  I'll tell you what gets me is when I slip into MA mode in civilian society.  two prime examples, for some reason at work I had to step backwards through a doorway...I performed a half bow as I left the room.  In another case, at work again, we were participating in a training class.  the presenter called me up to demonstrate some stuff.  When I finished he went to shake my hand.  As I returned the hand shake I bowed.  Thankfully,, most of my co-workers know about my after hours activities or accept the fact that I'm "eccentric" and don't think much of it.

Peace,
Erik


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## Lynne (Oct 10, 2008)

I grew up in the south (Virginia), so I've always addressed others, especially elders, with "Yes, sir" and "Yes, ma'am."  When I was a child, I even had to learn how to curtsy.

I do get odd looks from people here in New York.  I can tell elders appreciate the respect.

Washington state was actually worse. People despised my saying "Yes, sir" and "Yes, ma'am."  So, I didn't teach my daughter to address elders in a formal manner.  When we visited family in Virginia, my relatives were shocked that my daughter didn't know the proper protocol. After being in martial arts, she addresses everyone with "Yes, ma'am" and "Yes, sir" presently.


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## Kwanjang (Oct 10, 2008)

Like one of the earlier posts, I always use mam and sir. I sometimes I bow. (in or out of class --its a habbit)

At my school it is strickly enforced. However,I refer to my students, both young and old as sir or mam. 

One of my pet pieves is: When you are talking to some one and they don't hear you for what ever reason and they say....Huh?, or....What? I consider this rude. So I say to them- What you meant to say was, Sir? or, excuse me sir? or say again please.


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## girlbug2 (Oct 10, 2008)

Lynne said:


> I grew up in the south (Virginia), so I've always addressed others, especially elders, with "Yes, sir" and "Yes, ma'am." When I was a child, I even had to learn how to curtsy.
> 
> I do get odd looks from people here in New York. I can tell elders appreciate the respect.
> 
> Washington state was actually worse. People despised my saying "Yes, sir" and "Yes, ma'am." So, I didn't teach my daughter to address elders in a formal manner. When we visited family in Virginia, my relatives were shocked that my daughter didn't know the proper protocol. After being in martial arts, she addresses everyone with "Yes, ma'am" and "Yes, sir" presently.


 
I think it's refreshing when children say yes sir and yes ma'am. I don't think 39 years old is so very elderly!


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 10, 2008)

I tend to say it more outside of the schools I visit then in them

I don't recall ever saying it to my instructors. They where always addressed by rank/title, or MR./Miss "last Name"


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## Lynne (Oct 10, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> Like one of the earlier posts, I always use mam and sir. I sometimes I bow.
> 
> At my school it is strickly enforced. However,I refer to my students, both young and old as sir or mam.
> 
> One of my pet pieves is: When you are talking to some one and they don't hear you for what ever reason and they say....Huh?, or....What? I consider this rude. So I say to them- What you meant to say was, Sir? or, excuse me sir? or say again please.


 My Sa Ba Num greets me as "ma'am."  During a class or test, he may call me by my first name and that's fine with me.

I agree with the "huh" or "what" being rude.  We had a few teens who were rude in that manner.  Sa Ba Num grabbed one of them by the collar and shook him to get his attention.  He was the kind of kid who wouldn't get it unless you had his undivided attention.


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## Lynne (Oct 10, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> I think it's refreshing when children say yes sir and yes ma'am. I don't think 39 years old is so very elderly!


 I'm 51 and I say it to everyone to show respect, whether it's a 15 year old young adult, small child, or whatnot. 

It is not good to disrespect younger people - it's like saying they are not important.  I will say that my older relatives are rude to me and my family.  They feel that they don't need to respect us since we are younger.  They will talk right over us and interrupt us.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 10, 2008)

bluekey88 said:


> We enfore the "yes Sir" inside the dojang.  Things are more casual outside.  I'll tell you what gets me is when I slip into MA mode in civilian society.  two prime examples, for some reason at work I had to step backwards through a doorway...I performed a half bow as I left the room.  In another case, at work again, we were participating in a training class.  the presenter called me up to demonstrate some stuff.  When I finished he went to shake my hand.  As I returned the hand shake I bowed.  Thankfully,, most of my co-workers know about my after hours activities or accept the fact that I'm "eccentric" and don't think much of it.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik


Yes, you might be eccentric but you send an unconscious message of respect every time you do that. Calling someone sir/m'am or using the asian sign of respect of bowing sends a message of "I respect you for who/what you are" and that in turn GIVES you the respect. In business this is very good practice. We westerners think it's a bit "too formal" when we bow but go back just far enough in time and I'll betcha you'll see our forefathers doing the same thing. The Japanese and other asian cultures still bow to their "superiors" because they know it shows respect where it's due, even if it's a short bow.
I'm not accustomed to being called "sir" but I do. I either shrug it off or ask (nicely) to be referred/spoken to casually, even by subordinates should I be in a position of a foreman or "in charge". However if the situation calls for it, when calling me "sir" shows you're paying attention to what I'm saying and the seriousness/formality of whatever it is and you understand my place... this applies to everyone. 
Even if my mind set is that of "there is NO-ONE superior to me (nor is anyone INFERIOR to me) if the situation calls for it I will honor that person by calling them "sir/m'am". 
I think schools that reinforce (as opposed to enforcing) the "sir/m'am" moniker to the instructor helps students develop a habit of showing respect to others. Over time (especially younger students) will recognize when it's called for. That kid with the skateboard that kept calling the cop "dude" a while back for example. If he kept calling the cop "sir" I betcha the cop wouldn't have laid a hand on the kid and would've told him to go find someplace else to skate and probably done it nicely.
Imposing punishments (push-ups or laps or whatever) every time a student doesn't use "sir/m'am" (or the equivalent) to the instructor is a bit much IMO. If others, like say browns or green belts do it then the lower ranks (whites, yellows, etc.) will pick up on it and start using it. The instructor also needs to SHOW that by getting respect they appreciate it and show that appreciation however they feel fit, a "good job" or a few extra minutes of working with the student alone or a round of pizzas or something! 
Teaching someone how to hit/kick isn't the instructor's only job in the dojang. 
:asian:


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## shesulsa (Oct 10, 2008)

Lynne said:


> I grew up in the south (Virginia), so I've always addressed others, especially elders, with "Yes, sir" and "Yes, ma'am."  When I was a child, I even had to learn how to curtsy.
> 
> I do get odd looks from people here in New York.  I can tell elders appreciate the respect.
> 
> Washington state was actually worse. People despised my saying "Yes, sir" and "Yes, ma'am."  So, I didn't teach my daughter to address elders in a formal manner.  When we visited family in Virginia, my relatives were shocked that my daughter didn't know the proper protocol. After being in martial arts, she addresses everyone with "Yes, ma'am" and "Yes, sir" presently.



Agreed - wherever I go here, if I say Yes Ma'am or Yes Sir people look at me like they're trying to figure out which hick state I'm from. :cuss:  Though we encourage it in the dojang, we don't "enforce" it; i.e. if someone doesn't address a senior or a black belt with Ma'am or Sir we remind them but they don't get push-ups or anything.

Fostering general respect, while looked down upon by others, is an important temperance to have, in my opinion.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 10, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Fostering general respect, while looked down upon by others, is an important temperance to have, in my opinion.


 Agreed there. 
I don't get funny looks when I call someone sir or m'am... maybe it's HOW I'm doing it. Not quite so formal or in a relaxed but still respectful manner.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Oct 10, 2008)

Wow that got a lot of replies quickly...

I think I've actually done the bowing out of a non-dojang room before 

I personally had it drilled into my head that the instructor doesn't hear "huh" or "what" or "well...," but only "Yes, sir!" or "No, sir!" (exclamation points necessary) Whenever I have to teach junior belt children, I enforce that policy. A lot of times, when I correct a kid, he/she will say "But I..." or "Yeah, but..." and then I just say "Yes, sir!" before he/she can finish, as a reminder that I don't want to hear excuses, I just want to hear "Yes, sir" and see the student doing it right. There's this one kid who thinks he's on Comedy Club stage or something, because every time I correct him, he puts his hands up to his mouth with a wide-eyed look or slaps his head or does some kind of double-take, as if I want to see that. You just have to remind them that you don't want to hear anything but a straight "Yes, sir/No, sir!" and see them correcting mistakes. That's the attitude I want to take for myself, in fact, whenever (and this isn't exactly a rare occurrence) I'm corrected. 

Tang Soo!


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## chrispillertkd (Oct 10, 2008)

I always address my instructors as "Sir" or "Ma'am" regardless of where we are. The only exception is when I refer to my main instructor as "Master Batch," since he is an ITF VII Dan. This goes for being in class, out of class, at dinner, where ever. I will also use both hands when shaking hands, wait for them to extend their hand first, hand things to them with both hands, turn my head to the side when drinking in front of them, etc. It's nothing they've ever told me I have to do, I just do it because it's Taekwon-Do etiquette and I respect them. 

If someone in class (usually a beginner) doesn't use "sir" or "ma'am" when addressing them the black belts usually correct them. It's nothing mean or anything, just informing them of how etiquette works. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Kwanjang (Oct 10, 2008)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Wow that got a lot of replies quickly...
> 
> I think I've actually done the bowing out of a non-dojang room before
> 
> ...


 
We have a lot in common- I do the same thing!


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## Lynne (Oct 10, 2008)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Wow that got a lot of replies quickly...
> 
> I think I've actually done the bowing out of a non-dojang room before
> 
> ...


 Like an idiot, I have bowed when going into Wal-Mart (it was right after class).  Then, Wal-Mart is a war zone, lol.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 10, 2008)

Like many above, I was brought up in a fashion wherein courtesy and the offering of appropriate respect was as ordinary as the air we breathed.  

Those lessons have never left me and I did not find the formal reigi inherent in the martial arts to be anything out of the ordinary.  Only the depth of the bow changes depending on whether I am in a dojo or not :lol:.

People do respond to such courtesy, even if they think it a little odd.


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## shesulsa (Oct 10, 2008)

You know, I hear constantly about the difficulty in connecting with others in the interest of doing business, providing customer service, and a host of other things when one is dealing with someone who gives no direct attention, uses phrases such as, "I guess," and "uh-huh," etcetera.  

The use of Yes Ma'am and Yes Sir is often looked down upon, mainly by more modernized martial artists, with the casual and uninformed observation that it fosters blind faith or cultism.  If general respect and the use of these terms is encouraged and _mildly_ enforced, this can foster attention, confidence, professionalism, focus, appropriate and localized behavior and a host of other things.

The danger comes in, I think, if the requirement of such salutary utterings is indicated and demanded along with the ignorance of exploratory questioning, blind following as a tenet rule rather than a momentary focus drill. 

Just as general respect shouldn't be abused, demonstrative respect should not be abused either!


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## MBuzzy (Oct 10, 2008)

In the Dojang, "Yes Sir," "No Sir," and Mr. and Ms.' all around.  Outside, it is expected, although some are better about it than others.  Of course, for me, at work, everyone is Sir or Ma'am or rank/title and name, so it really isnt' weird for us.  I have bowed on many occasions at work and get looked at VERY funny.

I am still a bit up in the air about some of the other observations.  I believe in a difference between an excuse and a reason.  When asked a direct question or given a correction, "yes sir" is the only acceptable response.  I believe in taking responsibility for your actions, but I don't always believe in simply cutting the student off.  It depends a lot on the student, some students ALWAYS have an excuse or a rebuttal to what you say and need to be cut off.  But example...last night while doing Ill Soo Sik, a student was told to extend their kick further and said "Yes sir, my distance was off."  This is a reason, not an excuse and there's no reason to cut them off or not allow it.  Every other time, the technique was right.  I think that is very situational.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 10, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> In the Dojang, "Yes Sir," "No Sir," and Mr. and Ms.' all around.  Outside, it is expected, although some are better about it than others.  Of course, for me, at work, everyone is Sir or Ma'am or rank/title and name, so it really isnt' weird for us.  I have bowed on many occasions at work and get looked at VERY funny.
> 
> I am still a bit up in the air about some of the other observations.  I believe in a difference between an excuse and a reason.  When asked a direct question or given a correction, "yes sir" is the only acceptable response.  I believe in taking responsibility for your actions, but I don't always believe in simply cutting the student off.  It depends a lot on the student, some students ALWAYS have an excuse or a rebuttal to what you say and need to be cut off.  But example...last night while doing Ill Soo Sik, a student was told to extend their kick further and said "Yes sir, my distance was off."  This is a reason, not an excuse and there's no reason to cut them off or not allow it.  Every other time, the technique was right.  I think that is very situational.


Yes, if the student recognizes what they've done wrong and acknowledges it for the benefit of the instructor so that if they're mistaken about their reason they can be corrected or the instructor can take that as an opportunity to explain why or give ways to correct the problem. 
I do this with my non-MA students (ok, don't HAVE any MA students). If they give a reason to my asking why....? Then I use that opportunity to increase their knowledge (based on my experiences) on that. 

I like that there is a difference between an excuse and a reason.


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## IMP (Oct 10, 2008)

Of the three classes I've experienced, two of them say "Yes, sir" and one the teacher is known as Mr. The latter was the same outside of class, one of the 'Yes, sir" ones is first name basis outside of class, and one is Mr. outside of class. And, like many, I have bowed in other buildings than my dojang. People give you a funny look, but when I wore my  dobok to a restaurant...


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## JT_the_Ninja (Oct 10, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> I am still a bit up in the air about some of the other observations.  I believe in a difference between an excuse and a reason.  When asked a direct question or given a correction, "yes sir" is the only acceptable response.  I believe in taking responsibility for your actions, but I don't always believe in simply cutting the student off.  It depends a lot on the student, some students ALWAYS have an excuse or a rebuttal to what you say and need to be cut off.  But example...last night while doing Ill Soo Sik, a student was told to extend their kick further and said "Yes sir, my distance was off."  This is a reason, not an excuse and there's no reason to cut them off or not allow it.  Every other time, the technique was right.  I think that is very situational.



What I mean is that I don't want to see that the student is sorry so much as I just want to see him/her doing it right. It stems from a Biblical principle of "obedience, not sacrifice." If you mess up and I tell you what you were doing wrong, I don't want to hear how sorry you are that you messed up. I want to hear, "Yes, sir!" and see you correct it next time. It all comes down to attitude and how you respond to criticism and your own mistakes. If you focus on being sorry, you lose focus on fixing your mistakes. Mess up once, fine. Mess up a thousand times, fine. But mess up without learning from it and trying to correct yourself the next time, wrong.


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## Lynne (Oct 10, 2008)

IMP said:


> Of the three classes I've experienced, two of them say "Yes, sir" and one the teacher is known as Mr. The latter was the same outside of class, one of the 'Yes, sir" ones is first name basis outside of class, and one is Mr. outside of class. And, like many, I have bowed in other buildings than my dojang. People give you a funny look, but when I wore my dobok to a restaurant...


 Since we are talking about etiquette...do you wear you dobok outside of the dojang?  We are not to wear our doboks outside of the dojang unless we are going to and from a competition.  Well, there is an exception - you can wear your dobok if the dobok top is hidden by a coat. That is our association rules which may not be the same for everyone of course!


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## IMP (Oct 11, 2008)

No, not normally. Tf the place class is doesn't have a place to change, I change at home. So I do wear my dobok other places. That restaurant thing was an accident. We practiced in a park and we had to get dinner, so I couldn't really change. I don't wear my dobok to and from competitions, just when I'm there.


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## JWLuiza (Oct 11, 2008)

We don't do it inside or outside of the class.

It isn't part of our culture. respect is, but a formal protocol is not.


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## SamT (Oct 11, 2008)

My instructors reinforce it by correcting students, and higher gup students lead by example. It's been great so far. I generally address others by their proper title (Sir, Ma'am, Master, et cetera) in and out of the dojang. Heck, someone who tested for 1st dan with my instructor was my Motorcycle Safety Foundation teacher, I always said "Yes sir, thank you sir." when he'd give me advice or tell me what to do.


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## foggymorning162 (Oct 11, 2008)

Yes Sir and Yes Ma'am are inforced in class and although we have a fairly informal relationship outside of class it is still Sir for instructors and Master belts, we do not call our instructors by title when speaking directly to them usually even the GM is Sir. I do call even my 3 and 4's Ma'am and Sir. People outside if class usually are ok with it sometimes people will correct me and say something like "My father is Sir" or "I'm too young to be a Ma'am" Like a few others yes I have bowed in or out of stores etc. but the best is, and I know it is mean but I can't help myself sometimes.... If I hold the door for my son while walking out of a store sometimes I "remind" him too bow... he does it everytime :angel:


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## clfsean (Oct 17, 2008)

Eh I'm Southern... yes or no isn't complete without Sir or M'am. The words just aren't right with out them.

Too bad the old school Southern is being pushed out by non-native speakers. That means I'm lucky if yes or no is even polite now-a-days.


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## Montecarlodrag (Oct 21, 2008)

We don't use the "sir" or "Ma'am"
Instead, we enforce the use of "Yes/no Sa Bom Nim!" when a question was asked, and "Yes Sa Bom Nim! (then Bow)" when an order was given (to stand or doing something).

The "Yes Sa Bom Nim" is used regardless of rank, age or gender, but only to Blackbelts, or sometimes to seniors teaching (cho dan bo's or even red belts).

Regards.


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## MBuzzy (Oct 21, 2008)

Montecarlodrag said:


> We don't use the "sir" or "Ma'am"
> Instead, we enforce the use of "Yes/no Sa Bom Nim!" when a question was asked, and "Yes Sa Bom Nim! (then Bow)" when an order was given (to stand or doing something).
> 
> The "Yes Sa Bom Nim" is used regardless of rank, age or gender, but only to Blackbelts, or sometimes to seniors teaching (cho dan bo's or even red belts).
> ...



So at your Dojang, ALL instructors or Dans are known as Sabomnim?


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## zohran (Oct 21, 2008)

In our Dojang the norm is "Yes Sir", "Yes Maam" and "Mr./Ms./Mrs. Lastname."  While we do not enforce saying Sa Bom/Sa Bom Nim it is taught as part of the required terminology.  My instructor prefers being referred to as Mr. instead of Master.

We stress not wearing our uniforms outside of the Dojang. But some students come straight to class from home and are already in uniform.  There are times where we do see them running a quick errand in their uniform before or after class.

We bow when :

we enter the Dojang
we are about to walk onto the actual work out floor
to the instructors
to any guest instructors
when receiving intructions/corrections from instructors
when we leave the same areas as listed above

I do find myself bowing outside of class when meeting other persons that hold a higher position then i do in the workplace and when talking with persons that are older then i am.  I also bow during special events to include funerals.

We bow out of respect not submission.


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## Montecarlodrag (Oct 22, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> So at your Dojang, ALL instructors or Dans are known as Sabomnim?


 
All DAN instructors are called "Sa bom Nim" instead of "Yes Sir/Ma'am"

Of course, all students know the difference in rank between a Kyo Sa Nim, Bo Kyo Sa Nim, Sa Bom Nim and Kwang Chang Nim.

We always have done this way, i don't know why, but it's kind of cool.

Regards.


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## L4WM4N (Oct 22, 2008)

It is stressed in our Dojang that Tang Soo Do is a Moo Do or military art and respect is expected and enforced. I recently visited a TKD school and a MMA school and noticed the Masters appeared puzzled when I bowed as I shook their hands. 

I am especially appreciative as it's really teaching my 2 youngest about respect and discipline. If only my oldest wasn't a dancer ...


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## Montecarlodrag (Oct 23, 2008)

L4WM4N said:


> It is stressed in our Dojang that Tang Soo Do is a Moo Do or military art and respect is expected and enforced. I recently visited a TKD school and a MMA school and noticed the Masters appeared puzzled *when I bowed as I shook their hands*.
> 
> I am especially appreciative as it's really teaching my 2 youngest about respect and discipline. If only my oldest wasn't a dancer ...


 
Yes, we too bow when we shake hands with somebody with MA rank.
The person with lower rank bows first and with more emphasis, the higher rank vows slightly after the other vows to him.

Between color belts the bow is at the same time with same emphasis.

In all cases, we shake hands with right hand of course, and left hand is placed below the elbow (palm facing downwards) with the arm flexed 90 degrees.

I find it good to show recpect and humility


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## MrBigglesworth (Nov 19, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> We enfore the "yes Sir" inside the dojang.  Things are more casual outside.  I'll tell you what gets me is when I slip into MA mode in civilian society.  two prime examples, for some reason at work I had to step backwards through a doorway...I performed a half bow as I left the room.  In another case, at work again, we were participating in a training class.  the presenter called me up to demonstrate some stuff.  When I finished he went to shake my hand.  As I returned the hand shake I bowed.  Thankfully,, most of my co-workers know about my after hours activities or accept the fact that I'm "eccentric" and don't think much of it.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik



lol, it's so easy to do. I started in Yoshinkan Aikido and they used the word "osu" (pronounced more like "oos") a _lot_. I don't really do it any more, but I've lost count of the number of times I've "oosed" some guy at the 7-11, petrol  station, etc.


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## granfire (Nov 20, 2009)

Well, living in the South using polite phrases is much easier and pretty much the norm.

Though, I have to admit, I have been wanting to snatch kids up and get in their faces  "DON'T YOU KNOW HOW TO BEHAVE IN PUBLIC?!!!!"

On the same token, my aunt, living 'up North' has used aboe mentioned polite phrases to get back at her younger superiors. Nothing like a nice  crisp 'Yes Ma'am' to make a young person squirm I suppose.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm from Texas so I was raised to say "Yes, ma'am" and "No, sir". I use titles of respect in every social situation, whether I'm in the dojo or at the grocery store. However, I don't call very young people sir or ma'am, because such a title is one of the perks of being an adult (other perks are getting to stay up late and eating as many cookies as we want).

I ran with some bad people when I was young, had a funny-looking haircut, and got into some very sticky situations. Yet I've never been arrested, detained, or searched by the police. This is because I've always been polite, calm and well-spoken. I think also that my instinctive trust and respect for LEOs comes from this early experience, where my strange appearance and unsavory associates could have prejudiced police against me and gotten me in trouble. Yet I was always treated with courtesy.

The use of courtesy titles is one of the ways in which we oil the machinery of social living. The importance of courtesy cannot be overstressed, in my opinion.


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