# The Mystery of Pressure Point Strikes



## NTDeveloper (Feb 27, 2005)

Hello, All.  This is my first post, so please be gentle. I apologize in advance if this has already been covered.

 I am holding here in my hands one of George Dillman's texts on "pressure point" fighting. In it, he identifies various points on the body that will cause very specific reactions when struck. For example, he identifies a point on the arm he calls "Lung #5" that when struck will reportedly "cause the knees to buckle." Now, why this point would be named "Lung #5" is beyond me and it is also not at all clear why striking this particular point would affect the legs.

 My basic question on all this is "is it for real?" Do the indicated reactions really occur and are there valid scientific explanations for such reactions? Are "meridians", "energy flow" and other mystical things that Dillman discusses based in established scientific fact or are they more akin to the pseudoscience of astrology?

 Thanks for any replies.


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## mj_lover (Feb 28, 2005)

presure point fighting is real, i wouldn't use it outside the studio though. A point in the arm that effects the knees? seems unlikely, but my knowlege in the subject is limited. they work by stimulating nerves, which send messages to the brain. hope this made sense..
Mj_Lover


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 28, 2005)

NTDeveloper said:
			
		

> Hello, All. This is my first post, so please be gentle. I apologize in advance if this has already been covered.
> 
> I am holding here in my hands one of George Dillman's texts on "pressure point" fighting. In it, he identifies various points on the body that will cause very specific reactions when struck. For example, he identifies a point on the arm he calls "Lung #5" that when struck will reportedly "cause the knees to buckle." Now, why this point would be named "Lung #5" is beyond me and it is also not at all clear why striking this particular point would affect the legs.
> 
> ...


western science is still trying to prove the efficacy of the meridian system used in eastern medicine. is it akin to a pseudo-science? i would say no. to a lot of the people that practice TCM, the study and usage of the meridian system in diagnosis and treatment of various disease and illness is very scientific, and the results are often quite extraordinary.
there are a lot of martial artists out there however, that would lead you to believe that these same points can and will cause remarkable things to happen when struck in various sequence or on their own. the theory that "very specific reactions" will take place is unmitigated. 
very specific would mean that all people respond in the same manner, this however is untrue and the results often differ from group to group.
there are plenty of threads on MT that discuss the practice of using pressure point striking.


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## ppko (Feb 28, 2005)

NTDeveloper said:
			
		

> Hello, All. This is my first post, so please be gentle. I apologize in advance if this has already been covered.
> 
> I am holding here in my hands one of George Dillman's texts on "pressure point" fighting. In it, he identifies various points on the body that will cause very specific reactions when struck. For example, he identifies a point on the arm he calls "Lung #5" that when struck will reportedly "cause the knees to buckle." Now, why this point would be named "Lung #5" is beyond me and it is also not at all clear why striking this particular point would affect the legs.
> 
> ...


The point is named the point for the organ that it effects.  There are a number of people that do not have the same effect that is stated and a number that will.  If you look at people and put them on a "Bell Curve" then you will have some that are hyper sensitive to pressure points, the normal people (in the middle), the type that are hypo sensitive to pressure points.  You also have the people that some things will work great, but others won't.  This is true in anything you do.  Is this stuff for real yes and it can be used on the streets.  The reason the knee will buckle (assuming that this point works correctly on everyone) is because it is kind of a defense mechanism to keep the rest of your body from getting hurt.  That is my understanding anyway, but here is the great news if you get a finger lock or any other lock on the street immediately the opposite leg is weaker, so it is very easy to break, ie most of the weight is on that knee.


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## masherdong (Feb 28, 2005)

Pressure point fighting could be deadly if you do it right.  Like another poster said, I wouldn't do it outside the dojo.


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## jkn75 (Feb 28, 2005)

If you would like a good book on pressure points,  an explanation of the meridians, and the reason why and how they connect to the various organs in the body, please take a look at "Essential Anatomy for Healing and Martial Arts".


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## DavidCC (Feb 28, 2005)

As someone who has been struck in that spot many times, I can tell you, it does work as described.

It's not like you will fall to the ground necessarily, but it will cause a momentary weakness in the knees.  Its' brief, but it happens.


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## Aaron Little (Feb 28, 2005)

Are there any video clips online of Pressure Point application used against a resisting opponent/partner? By that I mean someone who is trying to stop the PP practitioner from doing his thing. I have seen a lot of them that have been posted here before but they are always more of just a demonstration kind of thing.


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## RRouuselot (Feb 28, 2005)

ppko said:
			
		

> The point is named the point for the organ that it effects.



   Uhhhh .no.

   Its named a Lung point because of the meridian it lies on.it doesnt necessarily affect the Lungs. That depends on the persons physical constitution. 

   Example, once I was treated on Stomach 36 for some damage I received from a strike to a kidney. Nothing was wrong with my stomach though.


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 28, 2005)

i dont think their gonna get it robert. 
your knees dont buckle as a defense mechanism. with statements like this confusion will abound.
now you're confusing reflexes with the efficacious use of pressure points.
again.......specific responses do not take place on all pressure points.....specific responses take place on reflex points...which is why doctors and therapists use reflex points to determine what or where a certain problem is.
ive already described a reflex action on another thread in regards to "pressure point" use.


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## DuneViking (Feb 28, 2005)

Greetings,


Yes it works, especially in the hands of masters. I have not done much with it myself, but have felt its effects!!


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 28, 2005)

Aaron Little said:
			
		

> Are there any video clips online of Pressure Point application used against a resisting opponent/partner? By that I mean someone who is trying to stop the PP practitioner from doing his thing. I have seen a lot of them that have been posted here before but they are always more of just a demonstration kind of thing.


ive never seen any......but thats not to say that there arent.
ive used pressure points before back when i was a doorman at a club......but none of this one touch ko business. i will tell you from first hand experience.....when someone is high or drinking, you definitely find out what causes real pain and what causes involuntary reflex.


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## RRouuselot (Feb 28, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> ive never seen any......but thats not to say that there arent.
> ive used pressure points before back when i was a doorman at a club......but *none of this one touch ko business*. i will tell you from first hand experience.....when someone is high or drinking, you definitely find out what causes real pain and what causes involuntary reflex.


 What you mean you never tried the "No touchy KO" or "one touchy KO" on someone that was ready to kick your teeth in?


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## ppko (Feb 28, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Uhhhh .no.
> 
> Its named a Lung point because of the meridian it lies on.it doesnt necessarily affect the Lungs. That depends on the persons physical constitution.
> 
> Example, once I was treated on Stomach 36 for some damage I received from a strike to a kidney. Nothing was wrong with my stomach though.


thanks for the clarification


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## RRouuselot (Feb 28, 2005)

ppko said:
			
		

> thanks for the clarification


 
    No problem.
    It's pretty basic knowledge for people that have trained in Kyusho or pressure points. 
 If I were to rank it on a belt scale like Karate it would be 10th kyu white belt level..........but then you claim to teach "kyusho" don't you.....


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## ppko (Feb 28, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> No problem.
> It's pretty basic knowledge for people that have trained in Kyusho or pressure points.
> If I were to rank it on a belt scale like Karate it would be 10th kyu white belt level..........but then you claim to teach "kyusho" don't you.....


Now bobby I am trying to be a nice guy here, but you don't want to play nice.  The fact of the matter is, is that they are named that because they effect the organ.  Can you treat the organs using other meridians yes, can you effect different organs using other meridians yes, but the fact of the matter is this the meridians are named what they are because they effect the organ more directly, I do not claim to know TCM as well as you but I do know how to fight and use the PPs.


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## ppko (Mar 1, 2005)

ppko said:
			
		

> Now bobby I am trying to be a nice guy here, but you don't want to play nice. The fact of the matter is, is that they are named that because they effect the organ. Can you treat the organs using other meridians yes, can you effect different organs using other meridians yes, but the fact of the matter is this the meridians are named what they are because they effect the organ more directly, I do not claim to know TCM as well as you but I do know how to fight and use the PPs.


Here is some more for you Bobby
*MERIDIAN - DISEASE RELATIONSHIPS*​*Meridian with the time of maximum activity*

*Associated symptoms*

Bladder (B) 3-5 p m.

bladder problems, headache, eye diseases, neck and back problems, pain along the back of the leg

Circulation (C) 7-9p.m.

poor circulation, angina, palpitation, diseases of the sexual glands and organs, irritability, pain along the course of the meridian

Conception (Co)

diseases of the urogenital system, hernia, cough, breathing difficulties, breast problems

Gall bladder (G) 11 p.m.-I a.m.

Gall bladder problems, ear diseases, migraine, hip problems, dizziness, pain along the meridian

Gland Meridian (Gd) 9-11 p.m. (Triple Warmer)

diseases of the thyroid and adrenal glands, ear problems, sore throat, abdominal distension, oedema, swelling of cheek, pain along the meridian

Governing Meridian (Gv)

spinal problems, mental disorders, fever, nose problems, headaches 

Heart (H) 11 a.m.-1 p.m.

heart problems, dryness of the throat, jaundice, pain along the course of the meridian

Kidney(K) 5-7 p.m.

kidney problems, lung problems, dry tongue, lumbago, oedema, constipation, diarrhoea, pain and weakness along the course of the meridian

Large Intestine (Li) 5-7 a.m.

abdominal pain, constipation, diarrhoea, sore throat, toothache in the lower gum, nasal discharge and bleeding, pain along the course of the meridian

Liver (Lv) 1-3 a.m.

liver problems, lumbago, vomiting, hernia, urination problems, pain in the lower abdomen and along the course of the meridian

Lung (L) 3-5 a.m.

respiratory diseases, sore throat, cough, common cold, pain in the shoulder and along the meridian

Small Intestine (Si) 

1-3 p.m.

pain in the lower abdomen, sore throat, swelling or paralysis of face, deafness, pain along the meridian

Spleen (Sp) 9-11 a.m.

problems of the spleen and pancreas, abdominal distension, jaundice, general weakness and sluggishness, tongue problems, vomiting, pain and swellings along the course of the meridian

Stomach (S) 7-9 a.m.

stomach problems, abdominal pain, distension, edema, vomiting, sore throat, facial paralysis, upper gum toothache, nose bleeding, pain along the meridian


 found it here http://users.mrbean.net.au/~wlast/meridians.html


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## ppko (Mar 1, 2005)

ppko said:
			
		

> Here is some more for you Bobby
> *MERIDIAN - DISEASE RELATIONSHIPS*​
> *Meridian with the time of maximum activity*
> 
> ...


Here is one to back up your claim looks like we are both right 
*HOW ARE INTERNAL ORGANS TREATED ?*

*As the internal organs are not easily accessible for treatment with acupuncture, they are treated by using meridians, which pass through or influence the organ. For example, lung diseases like asthma and chronic bronchitis can be treated using points on the meridians, which pass through the lung. The large intestine meridian is used to treat disorders in the lung as it passes through the lungs on the way to the intestine.*

*The large intestine meridian starts near the nail of the index finger and travels up the finger on the side of the thumb over the outer aspect of the arm. It passes through the shoulder over the throat to the nose. After passing through the nose, the meridian plunges inwards and passes down through the throat and the lungs to the large intestine. The meridian has a total of twenty points along its course on the skin. These superficial points are used for treatment required for any of the organs which lie along the path of the meridian*

*A disruption of the energy flow through this meridian may cause bleeding from the nose, colds, sore throats, or pain in the arm, shoulder, elbow or wrist. Because of its internal linkage with the large intestine, it may cause abdominal pain or diarrhoea. An excess of energy in the large intestine meridian can cause pain along its course. It may also cause stiffness of the shoulder, dizziness, distention of the abdomen and constipation, while a deficiency of Chi in this meridian may cause diarrhoea, shivering and a dry mouth. All the above mentioned conditions can be treated using points on the large intestine meridian*
*found it at http://www.drmanik.com/chap2.htm*


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## ppko (Mar 1, 2005)

here is a good preesure point resource for point locations http://www.acuxo.com/meridians.asp


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## RRouuselot (Mar 1, 2005)

ppko said:
			
		

> 1) Now bobby I am trying to be a nice guy here, but you don't want to play nice.
> 2) The fact of the matter is, is that they are named that because they effect the organ.
> 3) Can you treat the organs using other meridians yes, can you effect different organs using other meridians yes,


 1) Sorry I get tired of reading untrained peoples crap therioes on MA boards regarding TCM, Kyusho, and PPs. When people get licensed from an accredited school I am all ears.
 2) yes and no......just because you whack someone on Lung 5 doesn't mean they will have their lungs affected in some way. 
 3) Thank you for repeating what I posted earlier.


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## RRouuselot (Mar 1, 2005)

ppko said:
			
		

> Here is some more for you Bobby
> *MERIDIAN - DISEASE RELATIONSHIPS*​ *Meridian with the time of maximum activity*
> 
> *Associated symptoms*
> ...


 
 thanks for the info but I already have tons of text books I used at school with this sort of information.


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## ppko (Mar 1, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) Sorry I get tired of reading untrained peoples crap therioes on MA boards regarding TCM, Kyusho, and PPs. When people get licensed from an accredited school I am all ears.
> 2) yes and no......just because you whack someone on Lung 5 doesn't mean they will have their lungs affected in some way.
> 3) Thank you for repeating what I posted earlier.


1) And I get tired of reading people that won't put up or shut up.
2)I realize this
3)No problem bobby


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## ppko (Mar 1, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> thanks for the info but I already have tons of text books I used at school with this sort of information.


no problem sounded like you needed a refresher course


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## RRouuselot (Mar 1, 2005)

ppko said:
			
		

> here is a good preesure point resource for point locations http://www.acuxo.com/meridians.asp


 
 Now THAT is a good website!


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## ppko (Mar 1, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Now THAT is a good website!


Thank you it is one that I look at every once in a while


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## Bod (Mar 1, 2005)

I know of the knees buckling on some people when you squeeze the thumb tendon on the wrist into the outside wrist bone.

Are the two reflexes/responses connected?


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## RBaddorf (Mar 2, 2005)

Robert,

Acuxo.com also sells a small program for PDAs.  It shows a rough location of each point (cross hairs, good for refreshing memory on little used points), action of each point, verbal discription of location, any thing special about the point ie: Mu point or Jing-Well, etc. as well as the Chinese name and translation of the name, indications and conterindications.  It also has a small library of indications (73) such as Yu Syndrome Ki Yin Deficiency, or Vomiting External Pathogens.  Tapping on one of the library entries will bring up a list of symptoms, pulse description, tongue description and suggested points.  It was $35.00 a couple of years ago when I got it.  It is a handy reference tool.  When I go into clinic, I take my cell phone off of the belt clip, and clip on the PDA.  At your experience level you may not need it, but as a student it is a quick memory refresher without having to grab CAM or Deadman.


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## Dan Anderson (Mar 2, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> ive used pressure points before back when i was a doorman at a club......but none of this one touch ko business. i will tell you from first hand experience.....when someone is high or drinking, you definitely find out what causes real pain and what causes involuntary reflex.


Shawn,

Care to outline what you have "road tested?"  I'd love to hear it either here or in a PM.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## RRouuselot (Mar 2, 2005)

RBaddorf said:
			
		

> Robert,
> 
> Acuxo.com also sells a small program for PDAs. It shows a rough location of each point (cross hairs, good for refreshing memory on little used points), action of each point, verbal discription of location, any thing special about the point ie: Mu point or Jing-Well, etc. as well as the Chinese name and translation of the name, indications and conterindications. It also has a small library of indications (73) such as Yu Syndrome Ki Yin Deficiency, or Vomiting External Pathogens. Tapping on one of the library entries will bring up a list of symptoms, pulse description, tongue description and suggested points. It was $35.00 a couple of years ago when I got it. It is a handy reference tool. When I go into clinic, I take my cell phone off of the belt clip, and clip on the PDA. At your experience level you may not need it, but as a student it is a quick memory refresher without having to grab CAM or Deadman.


 
 I saw that for sale.
 I wish they had that sort of thing when I began studying. It would have made learning quicker and more interesting.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 5, 2005)

But is it possible that people respond to stimulus of the same area differently?


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