# The Importance Of Ground Skills



## SaulGoodman (Mar 15, 2016)

A lot of people (not me) in the wing chun community say it's "complete" and works in all ranges including the ground. The following clip shows a Las Vegas cop subduing a guy using very identifiable jiu jitsu skills. I  have been taking ground fighting for a long time now as I believe Wc is WOEFULL in that range. 
My question to anyone who doesn't feel they need to add to their skill set is, how would you have used wing chun on the ground to control this guy?

And let's not go down the road of "I'm not a cop so wouldn't be in that situation in the first place" etc


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2016)

I'm going down the road of police tactics being quite different to those needed as a civilian who is attacked. The gaols are different, the techniques are different. Police take people to the ground because they need to handcuff and subdue them not because they want to 'fight' on the ground. A police officer doesn't want to 'fight', their aim is to subdue, control and usually get them into vehicle with minimum fuss, doesn't always happen like that but that's always the hope.
The technique used by the officer (who did well) can also be attributed of course to Judo and the takedown was pure rugby. I would say that if the officer wasn't trying to handcuff and detain him he may well have used other techniques. In self defence the idea is to get away from the attacker not detain him so 'ground work for police officers' is a slightly different discussion to 'ground work for self defence'. You may not like it but of course many civilians wouldn't find themselves in that position, well not in the police officers at any rate lol, maybe as the arrested person though


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## Phobius (Mar 15, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> might be "off topic" but why the fists and elbows and taser instead of a wristlock or similar? typical racist us-cop bastard.



Adrenaline and concern for safety? If a guy resists a cop he might be willing to kill or be killed as well no matter a broken wrist. I dont think we should judge the cop without more facts.

Takes a special kind of idiot to attack or resist a cop.





MAfreak said:


> to wing chun: i'm sure there's no style with more exaggerated and overrated practitioners.



Could be you are right, there are a lot of practitioners of WC and as such there is a very high amount of practitioners with grand illusions.


Now back to my opinion, I guess it does not matter since I dont think WC has much to teach on the ground. Doing a bit of GJJ training this has proven to me more than anything that ground game may fit WC concept but if it ever has been part of the system that knowledge is long gone.

It is not about having something to support ground game, it is about training it and learning not only what you can do but what your opponent may do towards you.

So no, cross train. MMA is not a stupid idea in its core.


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## SaulGoodman (Mar 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I'm going down the road of police tactics being quite different to those needed as a civilian who is attacked. The gaols are different, the techniques are different. Police take people to the ground because they need to handcuff and subdue them not because they want to 'fight' on the ground. A police officer doesn't want to 'fight', their aim is to subdue, control and usually get them into vehicle with minimum fuss, doesn't always happen like that but that's always the hope.
> The technique used by the officer (who did well) can also be attributed of course to Judo and the takedown was pure rugby. I would say that if the officer wasn't trying to handcuff and detain him he may well have used other techniques. In self defence the idea is to get away from the attacker not detain him so 'ground work for police officers' is a slightly different discussion to 'ground work for self defence'. You may not like it but of course many civilians wouldn't find themselves in that position, well not in the police officers at any rate lol, maybe as the arrested person though


Good post, I appreciate that in a "self defense" situation that the ground is the worse place to be and that regaining ones feet is the best choice. However, if the bad guy WONT let you do that and he's proving to be a handful (like the guy in the clip) again my question is how would the "pure" Wc guy get himself out of this hole? Bearing in mind if he doesn't have ground skills it's doubtful he will be able to hold base for a striking finish/escape and won't have the necessary mechanics/skills to reverse/escape side control or mount


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## SaulGoodman (Mar 15, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> might be "off topic" but why the fists and elbows and taser instead of a wristlock or similar? typical racist us-cop bastard.



That last comment isn't very productive.


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## MAfreak (Mar 15, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> That last comment isn't very productive.


if you don't get angry on excessive violence, i do. otherwise i wouldn't have postet here since i'm no wing chun guy. but since the black guy didn't punch, a "figure four" grip on the wrist would have been possible to get control over him (and yes i did so too once in a real situation, when i don't wanted to hurt the other one, so i don't talk just theoretically).


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## Gnarlie (Mar 15, 2016)

There are US LEOs on this site, MAfreak. What experience do you personally have of US Law Enforcement that allows you to make such a sweeping statement?

I get the feeling that you make judgements based on pretty limited evidence. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## PiedmontChun (Mar 15, 2016)

It depends on what your aim is. Someone taking you to the ground and you are defending yourself on the ground or trying to subdue someone who is trying to run away (versus an actual fight)? BJJ would be great. Trying to say WC was made to do the same is silly. If your goal is to submit someone without injury, then no, WC has minimal tools for such a goal.

In this clip, there were numerous opportunities for punch or elbow strikes, or to get back up and fight, but that was not the officer's aim of course. The punches around 1:10-1:12 were what helped put him back in a dominant position from what it looks like though.

I've never met a WC person (online or otherwise) who makes the claim that WC equips you to grapple on the ground. So that is a bit of a straw man in my opinion. WC principles do carry over to the ground in many ways, which some schools train.


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## Tez3 (Mar 15, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> Bearing in mind if he doesn't have ground skills it's doubtful he will be able to hold base for a striking finish/escape and won't have the necessary mechanics/skills to reverse/escape side control or mount



Thank you for polite, reasoned posting. 
I don't know about US police officers but when I trained we were taught how to take someone down, how to control and keep them where we wanted them.
Just a thought, I don't know if this holds water or not, if someone, presumably like the officer in the video, has trained in a ground style is it likely that training will kick in rather than his police training? Would the officer in the video be actually making it more complicated by reversing, changing position etc?
I'm not as you will have gathered WC which I know doesn't answer your questions, sorry. Interesting though which is why I chimed in.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 15, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> to wing chun: i'm sure there's no style with more exaggerated and overrated practitioners.


Just so you know, I'm fairly certain there is a rule against style bashing, which you seem to like to do. Just pointing out, since you posted in the wing chun forum bashing wing chun with nothing productive to add.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 15, 2016)

I think the clip of a cop arresting a suspect is kind of off-topic. I'm pretty new to WT/WC, but I don't think it was really designed for LEOs to control/handcuff suspects.

The ground skills I've been sharing with my WT friends are focused on fundamentals of how to protect themselves on the ground, escape from the bottom, and get back to their feet safely so they can apply their WT. The underlying principles aren't too different from WT/WC (@yak sao says from what I've shown him so far that they're pretty much the same), but the details of application in context are different enough that it's worth working with someone who actually has training on the ground.


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## SaulGoodman (Mar 15, 2016)

PiedmontChun said:


> It depends on what your aim is. Someone taking you to the ground and you are defending yourself on the ground or trying to subdue someone who is trying to run away (versus an actual fight)? BJJ would be great. Trying to say WC was made to do the same is silly. If your goal is to submit someone without injury, then no, WC has minimal tools for such a goal.
> 
> In this clip, there were numerous opportunities for punch or elbow strikes, or to get back up and fight, but that was not the officer's aim of course. The punches around 1:10-1:12 were what helped put him back in a dominant position from what it looks like though.
> 
> I've never met a WC person (online or otherwise) who makes the claim that WC equips you to grapple on the ground. So that is a bit of a straw man in my opinion. WC principles do carry over to the ground in many ways, which some schools train.



I agree that certain aspects of wc do carry over but they won't save you when someone has got a high mount on you and they're trying to punch your head into a canoe shape...

As regards wc people not seeing the need to train grappling? They are out there, maybe we're just too enlightened on this forum to buy into that nonsense


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## SaulGoodman (Mar 15, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think the clip of a cop arresting a suspect is kind of off-topic. I'm pretty new to WT/WC, but I don't think it was really designed for LEOs to control/handcuff suspects.
> 
> The ground skills I've been sharing with my WT friends are focused on fundamentals of how to protect themselves on the ground, escape from the bottom, and get back to their feet safely so they can apply their WT. The underlying principles aren't too different from WT/WC (@yak sao says from what I've shown him so far that they're pretty much the same), but the details of application in context are different enough that it's worth working with someone who actually has training on the ground.



That's interesting Tony. Have they shown you their "anti ground fighting" techniques yet? I did Leung ting wt for a few years and was taught things that wouldn't even work on the zombies from "the walking dead"...


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 15, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> That's interesting Tony. Have they shown you their "anti ground fighting" techniques yet? I did Leung ting wt for a few years and was taught things that wouldn't even work on the zombies from "the walking dead"...


So far everybody has been happy to defer to my expertise on the ground. Yak sao has shown a couple of ideas vs standing grappling which seemed reasonably sound. He calls it "anti-grappling". I call it "grappling applied for the purpose of avoiding the takedown." Potayto - potahto.


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## PiedmontChun (Mar 15, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> I agree that certain aspects of wc do carry over but they won't save you when someone has got a high mount on you and they're trying to punch your head into a canoe shape...
> 
> As regards wc people not seeing the need to train grappling? They are out there, maybe we're just too enlightened on this forum to buy into that nonsense



I can't comment on what "people out there" think, only those I actually have any contact with. I guess my question to you, since you are the OP, is what exactly was the response you were looking for? For agreement we should all cross train grappling, or just a tacit acknowledgement that WC doesn't actually address grappling on the ground? The topic seems to come up quite a bit here, but I would point out that *most striking systems* don't have technical grappling from a guard or mount position. If you know a school that does, great, but I would posture that is an exception. The kid at the karate dojo down the street might learns some basic escape techniques from the ground along their locks, throws, and sweeps - but they would not fare much better (if at all). I've read Hapkido claims that they are a complete system addressing all ranges but highly doubtful that they grapple from the mount / guard position very much (again, maybe there are exceptions to this generalization). I'm not style bashing, just being realistic and also acknowledging they way in which someone defines "complete system" is important.

If I were ever to be mounted, I don't have a BJJ or wrestling toolset to draw from, but I do have some minimal tools from the WT system to avoid getting in bottom of mount position and dealing with it if it happens.

As for cross training: I work full time, have a family, pursuing higher education, have other hobbies that compete for time and money, and I'm not entering any MMA competitions (I'm a bit old for that too anyway). So where's the need? You might get similar sentiments from plenty of WC people. Again, it comes down to what is your aim or goal.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 15, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> A lot of people (not me) in the wing chun community say it's "complete" and works in all ranges including the ground. The following clip shows a Las Vegas cop subduing a guy using very identifiable jiu jitsu skills. I  have been taking ground fighting for a long time now as I believe Wc is WOEFULL in that range.
> My question to anyone who doesn't feel they need to add to their skill set is, how would you have used wing chun on the ground to control this guy?
> 
> And let's not go down the road of "I'm not a cop so wouldn't be in that situation in the first place" etc


Video is not a good lead in.  WC would have been the wrong tool set to use to arrest or control the guy.  If a WC approach were taken then it would have happened before the ground.  My guess would be that some kind of Chi na technique would have been used to destroy the joint which would have made it easier to control guy.  If we were looking at a street fight, then the guy running away would have been enough for the WC practitioner to stop the attack.

From what I've seen of WC practitioners, they have no interest is taking the mount. So a WC practitioner tackling someone and getting on their back is not likely unless they have another martial art skill set that allows them to wrestle.


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## MAfreak (Mar 15, 2016)

i didn't bash the style but practitioners and someone here said, i'm right (illusions from many practitioners). i really like some ideas of the style.
and to the question of us-cops, i think, every now and then videos going to public showing unjustified violence to black people is enough.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 15, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> and to the question of us-cops, i think, every now and then videos going to public showing unjustified violence to black people is enough.



A few rare and isolated incidents reported in the news is enough for you, with zero direct personal experience, to assert what is in your words 'typical'?

Not exactly sound logic.

The same flawed logic leads you to make erroneous sweeping statements about styles. 



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## SaulGoodman (Mar 15, 2016)

PiedmontChun said:


> I can't comment on what "people out there" think, only those I actually have any contact with. I guess my question to you, since you are the OP, is what exactly was the response you were looking for? For agreement we should all cross train grappling, or just a tacit acknowledgement that WC doesn't actually address grappling on the ground? The topic seems to come up quite a bit here, but I would point out that *most striking systems* don't have technical grappling from a guard or mount position. If you know a school that does, great, but I would posture that is an exception. The kid at the karate dojo down the street might learns some basic escape techniques from the ground along their locks, throws, and sweeps - but they would not fare much better (if at all). I've read Hapkido claims that they are a complete system addressing all ranges but highly doubtful that they grapple from the mount / guard position very much (again, maybe there are exceptions to this generalization). I'm not style bashing, just being realistic and also acknowledging they way in which someone defines "complete system" is important.
> 
> If I were ever to be mounted, I don't have a BJJ or wrestling toolset to draw from, but I do have some minimal tools from the WT system to avoid getting in bottom of mount position and dealing with it if it happens.
> 
> As for cross training: I work full time, have a family, pursuing higher education, have other hobbies that compete for time and money, and I'm not entering any MMA competitions (I'm a bit old for that too anyway). So where's the need? You might get similar sentiments from plenty of WC people. Again, it comes down to what is your aim or goal.


What response am I looking for? The tone of your reply seems a little unfriendly. Is it because you didn't like my observation on the wt grappling defences? I invested a lot of hours training in that system and truly believed I would give any would be grappler a very hard time if they tried taking me down. It was only when I started training submission wrestling that I realized that an awful lot of my anti-grappling skills were wanting. Anyhow, I put the clip up to generate conversation, shared experiences, useful insights that might help people or maybe change people's minds about the usefulness of even rudimentary grappling skills. Not trying to start a flame war or a grappling is better than standup conversation. If you don't feel the subject is worth discussing, then that's your choice.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 15, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> might be "off topic" but why the fists and elbows and taser instead of a wristlock or similar? typical racist us-cop bastard.
> 
> to wing chun: i'm sure there's no style with more exaggerated and overrated practitioners.


I'm going to give a culture view of this since I'm ole skool and black.

Rules for for black people when dealing with the cops.
1. Don't talk back disrespectfully, aka "being loud and wrong":
2. Don't fight back
3. Don't try to run.

Those 3 things are almost always guaranteed to get a black person in more trouble than what they want to deal with.  Those 3 things also don't help in trying to calm a police officer down.  The only way to win against a police officer is to fight it out in court.  Since that is the only way to win, then the less of 1-3 you do the better.

I'm not sure why people think that running away from a police means that they can't punch you in the face or hit you.  In this case not sure why the black guy thought putting the police officer in a head lock would make the situation any better.  The problem with #1- #3 is that it changes the context in which the police officer is going to deal with you. These actions escalate the situation. 

As a black teenager, my father gave me the talk about how to deal with police officers and told me straight out that there are good police officers and bad police officers.  The bad police officers are looking for a reason to rough me up so I need to always present myself in a way that deescalates the situation.  He told me that I don't get the same "benefit of doubts" that white people get, and that by being black means that the first assumption will always be negative.  Because of that first assumption I have to present myself to show that I don't fit the assumption.  That's just how life is.

If I need to fight for my rights, then I need to do it through the court where I can actually win.  Trying to win a fight with a police officer on the street is a no win.

So you asked why the fist and elbows, and taser instead of a wrist lock?   Because he did #2 and #3.  Had he just been respectful like he started out then he would have been arrested without a wristlock.  But since he did #2 and #3,  he had to get roughed up.  Now he lost on the street and he'll lose in court because of his actions.

I'm not saying that following what police officers tell you will keep a black person out of danger, but I am saying that not following a police command will definitely make your day worst. There is no scenario where running away from a police officer is going to make anything better.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 15, 2016)

Points 1, 2 and 3 apply regardless of ethnicity. Just saying. 

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## Andrew Green (Mar 15, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> My question to anyone who doesn't feel they need to add to their skill set is, how would you have used wing chun on the ground to control this guy?



Well a cop is very different then someone with a hobby.  They are actually going to need to use those skills in real life situations, most of us are not.

In the end whether it is martial arts or some other activity we do the things that we enjoy and care about.  No one can possibly train everything in every way, so we pick and choose what matters.  The reality is most of us don't train to restrain someone outside of the gym, we do it for fun and as a way to stay in shape.  If you do have a lifestyle or profession that requires you to have certain skills, then you should defiantly get those skills.  If not, who cares, have fun doing what you do.


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## SaulGoodman (Mar 15, 2016)

So are you saying that only cops need groundfighting skills to subdue felons and rest of us don't need to worry about it? I consider my training way more than a "hobby", sure it's fun but I'm also training for that horrible moment if/when some malevolent comes into my life and wants to hurt me or a loved one. My aim is to have the best chance I can have in surviving that kind of situation and IMO not having any kind of ground game is a problem.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 15, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> So are you saying that only cops need groundfighting skills to subdue felons and rest of us don't need to worry about it? I consider my training way more than a "hobby", sure it's fun but I'm also training for that horrible moment if/when some malevolent comes into my life and wants to hurt me or a loved one. My aim is to have the best chance I can have in surviving that kind of situation and IMO not having any kind of ground game is a problem.




And if that is your goal train with that in mind.  I doubt that someone taking something like Kyodo cares.

But keep in mind you can't do everything, how much you can do depends on your commitment level to martial arts vs other things in life.  Draw the line wherever suits you.

I love wrestling and grappling, its what I do every single day.  But if someone doesn't want to, that's their choice.  Same as if they don't want to train striking, sticks, blades, firearms, etc.


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## PiedmontChun (Mar 15, 2016)

SaulGoodman said:


> What response am I looking for? The tone of your reply seems a little unfriendly. Is it because you didn't like my observation on the wt grappling defences? I invested a lot of hours training in that system and truly believed I would give any would be grappler a very hard time if they tried taking me down. It was only when I started training submission wrestling that I realized that an awful lot of my anti-grappling skills were wanting. Anyhow, I put the clip up to generate conversation, shared experiences, useful insights that might help people or maybe change people's minds about the usefulness of even rudimentary grappling skills. Not trying to start a flame war or a grappling is better than standup conversation. If you don't feel the subject is worth discussing, then that's your choice.



Reading between the lines a bit, but no unfriendliness intended
Going back and reading the OP, you did pose the question "how would you use WC to control the guy?" Taking that at face value and trying to answer honestly, after all, scenarios like this die the death of a thousand qualifications......If I did have to chase after someone and stop them, I would not be beholden to whatever policies LEO's have; I'd have to be able to legally defend the level of force used as a civilian though. I'd probably kick the back of the leg, sweep, neck control, some form of arm lock. If it ended up on the ground like it did here, I would do my best to not let that guy have control of my neck from below and would try to get back to my feet. In terms of trying to get a complete submission without injury being the goal, WC is not the best toolset, not whatsoever.

Regarding your other post bashing your experience with an LT lineage "anti-grappling" techniques in the past, that stinks someone misled you and oversold the techniques / concepts.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 15, 2016)

Gnarlie said:


> Points 1, 2 and 3 apply regardless of ethnicity. Just saying.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Yes you are right, but in the U.S. they don't always apply equally.   I've seen white people do things to police officers that would almost guarantee a black doing the same thing would go to jail.

Just to add to this.  If a black man can get arrested for drinking ice tea, then don't expect any of the other issues of black male citizens and police officers to be something that applies to any ethnicity.

I'm not against cops because I have friends and family that are cops which also gives me some insight on what goes on in the police force such as profiling and tactics used to "scare criminals out of hiding."  Black men specifically just need to understand that not every cop is going to be good one so try not to do stuff that will make the bad cops feel like they have "justification" for doing something





In the video of the police officer punching the guy in the face and using the taser.  That action was probably as a result of the cop being put in a head lock. For me personally, as a civilian mindset I would probably do the same thing if someone put me in a headlock.  A headlock has a different feel of danger than someone just running away.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 15, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yes you are right, but in the U.S. they don't always apply equally.   I've seen white people do things to police officers that would almost guarantee a black doing the same thing would go to jail.
> 
> Just to add to this.  If a black man can get arrested for drinking ice tea, then don't expect any of the other issues of black male citizens and police officers to be something that applies to any ethnicity.
> 
> ...



I will freely admit here that I have zero experience with US Law Enforcement outside of what I see in the media and here on this forum. 

There's certainly nothing in the original post video that leads me to believe that the cops actions are racially motivated. I would expect similar treatment for a white person resisting arrest as violently as the person in the video was. 

I realise in retrospect that with my  'rules 1,2 and 3' post I made a point similar to the 'all lives matter' response to 'black lives matter', a response which misses the whole point and detracts from the issue at hand, so I'd like to acknowledge that that doesn't make what you said any less true. I'm sure there are differences in police treatment of ethnic minorities, and I'm just as sure that white privilege makes me slightly blind to that. I wish the world wasn't like it is.

I'm not in a position to generalise. I appreciate your viewpoint and experiences. Thanks.


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2016)

Gnarlie said:


> There are US LEOs on this site, MAfreak. What experience do you personally have of US Law Enforcement that allows you to make such a sweeping statement?
> 
> I get the feeling that you make judgements based on pretty limited evidence.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk



Nope shouldn't have toweled him from mount. I can sympathise with the cop but he still did thevwrong thing.

Now what cop should have gone for was scarf hold. Because it is harder to be swept from and a lot easier on the knees.


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2016)

PiedmontChun said:


> Reading between the lines a bit, but no unfriendliness intended
> Going back and reading the OP, you did pose the question "how would you use WC to control the guy?" Taking that at face value and trying to answer honestly, after all, scenarios like this die the death of a thousand qualifications......If I did have to chase after someone and stop them, I would not be beholden to whatever policies LEO's have; I'd have to be able to legally defend the level of force used as a civilian though. I'd probably kick the back of the leg, sweep, neck control, some form of arm lock. If it ended up on the ground like it did here, I would do my best to not let that guy have control of my neck from below and would try to get back to my feet. In terms of trying to get a complete submission without injury being the goal, WC is not the best toolset, not whatsoever.
> 
> Regarding your other post bashing your experience with an LT lineage "anti-grappling" techniques in the past, that stinks someone misled you and oversold the techniques / concepts.


Pro tip. 

Control of the neck from the bottom is almost always nothing. You need to watch out for control with their legs.  This is even for things like rear naked chokes.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Nope shouldn't have toweled him from mount. I can sympathise with the cop but he still did thevwrong thing.
> 
> Now what cop should have gone for was scarf hold. Because it is harder to be swept from and a lot easier on the knees.


Your response has nothing to do with what I posted DB. It may have been wrong but there is nothing to suggest racial motivation. 

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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2016)

Gnarlie said:


> Your response has nothing to do with what I posted DB. It may have been wrong but there is nothing to suggest racial motivation.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk



Your post had nothing to do with any subject at all.

It did not address racism.

It did not address misuse of force.

Or even what tactics the cop could have used wing chun or otherwise.

All it addressed was whether ma freak was an American cop. Which not only wasn't the topic but ironically specifically stated as not the topic. 

So i thought i would add some nuance to thst particular area of discussion. Otherwise i think the racism motivation was wrong as well.  You jump in mount of course you want to bash people. That is what is so good about mount.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 15, 2016)

Gnarlie said:


> I will freely admit here that I have zero experience with US Law Enforcement outside of what I see in the media and here on this forum.
> 
> There's certainly nothing in the original post video that leads me to believe that the cops actions are racially motivated. I would expect similar treatment for a white person resisting arrest as violently as the person in the video was.
> 
> ...


You are correct again.  The rules that I were told to me don't apply to just one group.  It's just difficult to see things like this unless you know someone it has happened to or unless you have a personal connection that allows you to see the difference then you probably won't see it or even notice it, but the day you see you'll be like WTF.  It's just the way the world is, all messed up with little pockets of happiness.   It's better than what it used to be so those small pockets of happiness are much larger than they were in the past.  The more people talk about it the more aware they'll be of it. The more people make friends with other people from different backgrounds the better things will be.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Your post had nothing to do with any subject at all.
> 
> It did not address racism.
> 
> ...


Whatever dude. This is an off-topic nonversation. I'm not going to continue it. 

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## Tez3 (Mar 16, 2016)

Police officers don't need 'fighting skills' whether ground ones or not, they need 'arresting', controlling', 'pacifying' and 'handcuffing' type skills, they have the equipment, depending on the country, to do this. Armed officers have to be aware that if grappling with a suspect on the ground their weapon could be snatched, even unarmed officers have to take care their equipment is not used against them. A police officer carries more on their body than most people. There are considerations that police officers have that don't apply to civilians as well.
Using anything with a police officer to prove that a particular style is necessary isn't go to work, _police style works for police work._


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## PiedmontChun (Mar 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Pro tip.
> 
> Control of the neck from the bottom is almost always nothing. You need to watch out for control with their legs.  This is even for things like rear naked chokes.


That's a good point. I did notice that the neck control the guy had from below was with one arm only, but it was enough that it kept the cop's weight forward for a good while where he was unable to use his own arms to control the civilian. The guy below had his legs together versus being in a guard type position to the cop had the dominant position as far as leg / body placement. I think letting the guy wrap the cop's neck like that, maybe not such a big deal if you are skilled in BJJ but for most guys it could be a real problem.

I have a BJJ white belt friend who had his own comments on this very video. His opinion was that the cop did multiple movements no one would instinctively know how to do without grappling experience, and was likely at least a high level BJJ white belt of some variety. That's secondhand and not an assessment I can weigh in on at all, but thought worth mentioning.


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## Tez3 (Mar 16, 2016)

I don't think that for a police officer knowing any martial art can be a bad thing especially if they practice regularly. The sheer de-stressing effect of training is worth it, if nothing else.  Knowing more techniques gives you more 'weapons' in your armoury plus regular sparring, rolling and training helps keep skills up.

The problem with any situation that is videoed and has people commenting on is that unless the people in the video are there to comment too, no one who is not there has any idea of what the situation was really like. One of the banes of my working life was that after dealing with a situation some one would always say 'what I would have done is...' which is nonsense. I would certainly have dealt with the suspect differently for many reasons, I'm smaller for a start but that doesn't negate what the officer did in the video, he did his best and it worked, you can't actually do more than that. Saying 'oh he should have used this move, that move, put his arm there or her' is pointless, you aren't him and you don't know what his skills are, how weak/strong he is, what he knows, how strong the suspect was, whether he was under the influence etc etc etc.
Yes having ground skills is important...but for whom and why, in what situations does it help, when should you not use ground skills?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 16, 2016)

*Good work by the LEO in the video*.  Sure he made a few mistakes but the end result is he maintained control until backup arrived and they were able to arrest the perpetrator.  Goal achieved!


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## JPinAZ (Mar 16, 2016)

EDIT


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## drop bear (Mar 16, 2016)

PiedmontChun said:


> That's a good point. I did notice that the neck control the guy had from below was with one arm only, but it was enough that it kept the cop's weight forward for a good while where he was unable to use his own arms to control the civilian. The guy below had his legs together versus being in a guard type position to the cop had the dominant position as far as leg / body placement. I think letting the guy wrap the cop's neck like that, maybe not such a big deal if you are skilled in BJJ but for most guys it could be a real problem.
> 
> I have a BJJ white belt friend who had his own comments on this very video. His opinion was that the cop did multiple movements no one would instinctively know how to do without grappling experience, and was likely at least a high level BJJ white belt of some variety. That's secondhand and not an assessment I can weigh in on at all, but thought worth mentioning.



The cop did get swept out of mount. 

That is pretty noob.


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