# Is there Shaolin practitioners on this forum?



## Janina (May 21, 2013)

I am a Zen Instructor and practitioner of Martial arts from Finland and I seek to achieve a deeper spiritual understanding in different kinds of MA. I have been trained in  Kobushikai Shorinjiryu Karatedo, Iaido (Japanise swordsmanship)  and Bujutsu amongst them. I also practice traditional Okinawan Kobudo, Ashtanga Yoga and Chanmeditation. I have received Boddhisattva precepts as a Mahayana Buddhist practitioner and serve as a Buddhist instructor in my home town Zen community. I have received the refuge in both Zen (Chan) and Tibetan Vajrayna/Tantrayna Buddhist tradition also known by the name Nyingma.  

The reason I started this thread is because I have asked to become a Shaolin Practitioner and would like to share some discussion with others who have been practicing under that formal tradition. I am 36 year old entrepreneur from Finland. Vegetarian, pacifist and follower of Bodhisattva path. So is there any formal students of Shaolin tradition on this forum


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## clfsean (May 21, 2013)

You're looking for Songshan Shaolin martial arts, right?


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## Janina (May 21, 2013)

clfsean said:


> You're looking for Songshan Shaolin martial arts, right?




Yes, you got that right!


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## clfsean (May 21, 2013)

I'm not that aware of that many Songshan people around here. 

I'm Shaolin origins with Choy Lay Fut & Tibetan with Lama Pai, but no Songshan & only the martial aspect. Sorry.


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## Janina (May 22, 2013)

Thank you for your response. I am also a practitioner of Tibetan tradition and have been studying both Nyingma- and Kagyu sects of that tradition. Songshan tradition interests me in the reason I told already. I have asked to become their Buddhist student and wanted to discuss with others who have got some education in that tradition.

Though your experience is not about Songshan, it would be nice to hear your experiences as well, cause it is always pleasure to change some experiences!


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## clfsean (May 22, 2013)

Janina said:


> Thank you for your response. I am also a practitioner of Tibetan tradition and have been studying both Nyingma- and Kagyu sects of that tradition. Songshan tradition interests me in the reason I told already. I have asked to become their Buddhist student and wanted to discuss with others who have got some education in that tradition.
> 
> Though your experience is not about Songshan, it would be nice to hear your experiences as well, cause it is always pleasure to change some experiences!



Ok... like what? My experience has been mostly directed & centered only on martial. Not much else. I've been to Songshan Shaolin Si. Again martial in content for me & that was pretty much as a spectator not participant. I've been to Tibet & visited a couple of monastaries (Sera, Jorkorum) but this was strictly tourist only.


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## Janina (May 22, 2013)

Though my interest is directed to Shaolin Chan tradition I think that all the views and opinions about MA, meditation and Buddhism are valuable. That was what I meant by my last post. Also your experiences with Choy Lay Fut gives you some view, no matter is it purely on martial arts or more spiritual practices..


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## oaktree (May 22, 2013)

> I have asked to become their Buddhist student and wanted to discuss with others who have got some education in that tradition.


 You asked a Zhu chi at Xiaolin si miao on Songshan to be a Di zi? Why Xiaolin why do you need so many different Buddhist traditions? If you are going to do all that you should learn Mandarin at least.


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## clfsean (May 22, 2013)

Janina said:


> Though my interest is directed to Shaolin Chan tradition I think that all the views and opinions about MA, meditation and Buddhism are valuable. That was what I meant by my last post. Also your experiences with Choy Lay Fut gives you some view, no matter is it purely on martial arts or more spiritual practices..



My experience with CLF?? Hehe... fun. To sum up the past years... lots of circles & straight lines, angles & stepping to keep one entertained & annoyed, tying people up like pretzels & clubbing them like baby seals. All in all... a rocking good time!!


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## Janina (May 22, 2013)

oaktree said:


> You asked a Zhu chi at Xiaolin si miao on Songshan to be a Di zi? Why Xiaolin why do you need so many different Buddhist traditions? If you are going to do all that you should learn Mandarin at least.



Thank you for your good advices. I will keep them on my mind..


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## Janina (May 22, 2013)

clfsean said:


> My experience with CLF?? Hehe... fun. To sum up the past years... lots of circles & straight lines, angles & stepping to keep one entertained & annoyed, tying people up like pretzels & clubbing them like baby seals. All in all... a rocking good time!!



Sounds like a lot of fun to me!


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## oaktree (May 22, 2013)

There are many priests from songshan and people who train around
And at xiaolin on weibo but they only speak chinese. 
I have spoken to some. There also other Buddhist sects in china
So thats why I asked why xiaolin. Xiaolin is not the same as it was before.


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## Janina (May 22, 2013)

oaktree said:


> There are many priests from songshan and people who train around
> And at xiaolin on weibo but they only speak chinese.
> I have spoken to some. There also other Buddhist sects in china
> So thats why I asked why xiaolin. Xiaolin is not the same as it was before.




The Shaolin or Xiaolin, like you said, interests specifically because of the Chan-tradition they teach as part of their Martial education. I personally use my practice of Martial techniques as part of my daily meditation, like Yoga and sitting as well, so I feel that the way monks practice Kungfu as their ´Dharma Gate´ and mix it to the formal spiritual lifestyle is something which resonates with my mentality.

Why I ask about practitioners on this forum is simply that I like to have these discussions on this forum and like to change thoughts with others. This forum is vast setting of different traditions and styles, so I thought if there were any Shaolin´s here also..


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## oaktree (May 22, 2013)

> I have asked to become a Shaolin Practitioner


Do you mean that you asked a Xiaolin monk if you can be one as well? 


> The Shaolin or Xiaolin, like you said, interests specifically because of the Chan-tradition they teach as part of their Martial education


 They also teach each one seperate as well last time I heard. Meaning they sometimes have people just study Chan or just Wushu. 


> so I feel that the way monks practice Kungfu as their ´Dharma Gate


I don't know how much of the martial side was used to cultivate some spiritual sense most likely Qigong and meditation was used for that at least if we are going by the different a Xiaolin Qigong sets and theory.
I don't think there are any Xiaolin monks on here like I said Weibo has them but without knowing how to speak Chinese or someone who can for you impossible to ask the questions. Anyway good luck to you on your Xiaolin monk quest.


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## Janina (May 22, 2013)

oaktree said:


> Do you mean that you asked a Xiaolin monk if you can be one as well? .



I am going to study there in Shaolin Temple their Kungfu, Chan and Chanting, and thought if somebody who practices with the tradition would share some thoughts about the tradition with me..



oaktree said:


> They also teach each one seperate as well last  time I heard. Meaning they sometimes have people just study Chan or just  Wushu. .



I am aware of this. They also teach Chinese medicine and acupuncture and so on.



oaktree said:


> Anyway good luck to you on your Xiaolin monk quest.



Thank you very much, and thank´s for your great response!


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## Jin Gang (May 23, 2013)

I thought it was &#23569;&#26519;&#23546; shaolin si not &#23567;&#26519;&#23546; xiaolin si.  I know it's pretty close meaning and sounding, but the characters are fairly famous...it does make a difference which way you spell it.  &#23567;&#26519; is a village in Taiwan, not the temple on Songshan.


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## oaktree (May 23, 2013)

Thank you for the correction. I have seen it written using both ways. I always thought shaolin was from wade Giles and xiaolin from pin yin. 
 sometimes I think just using hanzi is easier then pin yin.


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## Napitenkah (Jun 23, 2013)

I'm studying Shaolin Kung Fu.
I know the form; Se Meng T'ao Lian.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 23, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> I'm studying Shaolin Kung Fu.
> I know the form; Se Meng T'ao Lian.



Is this Shao-Lin Do, under Sin The?


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## Napitenkah (Jun 23, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> Is this Shao-Lin Do, under Sin The?



Yes, it is. I am learning from Masters David and Sharon Soard. They are the founders.


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## clfsean (Jun 24, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> Yes, it is. I am learning from Masters David and Sharon Soard. They are the founders.



Ah... this explains much.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 24, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> Yes, it is. I am learning from Masters David and Sharon Soard. They are the founders.



I believe they split from Sin The in Lexington, KY, yes?


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## clfsean (Jun 24, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> I believe they split from Sin The in Lexington, KY, yes?



Lexington yes, Sin The no.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 24, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Lexington yes, Sin The no.


 
well I believe Sin The is in Lexington, and I believe the Soards were students if him?


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## clfsean (Jun 24, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> well I believe Sin The is in Lexington, and I believe the Soards were students if him?



Yes & no.  

On a high level ... 

Sin's located in Cali (Suburbs of LA). Now he's tour circuit to his schools only but doesn't have "his school" per se. He's been there AT LEAST since late 90's. 

The Soards originally trained under him & then set up shop in Denver. There was a big schism in the late 80's early 90's between East & West. At that point Soards were doing their own thing & everything else was Lexington. Now there's Denver, Lexington & Ga/Tenn contingents. I was in during the Lexington -- Ga/Tenn break & then left shortly after but still know people involved.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 24, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Yes & no.
> 
> On a high level ...
> 
> ...



Ah, I knew there was a split, and I knew he was in Lexington but did not know that he had moved to LA.  Must be nice to just tour around and visit schools all the time.  And people pay him real money to do that?  I'm in the wrong line of work.

I'm surprised that the Soard's can actually use the name of Shaolin Do, that seems like something Sin would have held control over.  But I don't care even a little bit, I'm just a rubbernecker at this point.

Was it Mr. Soard who got himself into some serious criminal troubles?


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## clfsean (Jun 24, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> Ah, I knew there was a split, and I knew he was in Lexington but did not know that he had moved to LA.  Must be nice to just tour around and visit schools all the time.  And people pay him real money to do that?  I'm in the wrong line of work.



Yes indeedy... that is the way to fly!!



Flying Crane said:


> I'm surprised that the Soard's can actually use the name of Shaolin Do, that seems like something Sin would have held control over.  But I don't care even a little bit, I'm just a rubbernecker at this point.



Franchising baby!!! They pay Sin, their offshoots pay them, etc... 



Flying Crane said:


> Was it Mr. Soard who got himself into some serious criminal troubles?



Indeed. Plenty of news on it out there available with your favorite search engine.


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## Napitenkah (Jun 24, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Ah... this explains much.



Please tell me, what does it explain to you. And why was there things about me that needed explaining.


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## Napitenkah (Jun 24, 2013)

I have been looking at the information about David Soard, which I did not know about.

Especially that he did plead guilty, and essentially got off.

This is something I am not about to defend.

And I am seriously going to contemplate ever going back.


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## clfsean (Jun 24, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> Please tell me, what does it explain to you. And why was there things about me that needed explaining.



No.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...e&#8217;s-Private-Match?p=1581430#post1581430


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## clfsean (Jun 24, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> I have been looking at the information about David Soard, which I did not know about.
> 
> Especially that he did plead guilty, and essentially got off.
> 
> ...



Don't let the legal issues be the only deciding factor in making you question going back. Do your research on CMA's more & deeper. 

Read this post... it will make sense ... http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...uce-Lees-Private-Match?p=1581430#post1581430


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## Napitenkah (Jun 24, 2013)

At this point, the Belt level for me here, equals the belt level at the Shao-lin center.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 25, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> I have been looking at the information about David Soard, which I did not know about.
> 
> Especially that he did plead guilty, and essentially got off.
> 
> ...



An ex-girlfriend of mine had come to San Francisco and was excited to train with a famous Sifu here.  She trained with him for a short period of time, and then during a private lesson he took the opportunity to cop a feel on her.  It was tremendously upsetting to her.  She had placed him on a pedestal and the realization that he fell far short of her expectations was a hard blow.  She never went back to his class again and was quite angry over it for a long time.

Some of these people hold themselves out to be great, when they only deserve our scorn.  It's a bummer when you find out it's your own sifu, or the head of your group.  

Anyway, there's other issues with the Shaolin-Do groups, a few of us here have some past experience with them and they just kinda present themselves as something that they are not.  That's why it becomes a bit of a hot topic around here.


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## Napitenkah (Jun 25, 2013)

Well, consider this.
I was ready to tear up my first and only certificate and never go back.
Then I talked to someone very close to me, who knows about sexual abuse.
He did cheat on his wife, or maybe not, maybe they have that hippy attitude of free love.
All I know is they are still together.
He did have inappropriate relationships with apparently 2 female students. yes.
"Soard's attorney, said his client had e-mails and text messages showing an ongoing relationship between his client and the students with whom he had sexual contact. He said the relationships were inappropriate but consensual."
!?!
And he got off with 2 years probation, and counseling.
What happened?
Did he jump on them in class, and force himself on them?
Doesn't sound like it.
That was my initial reaction, as it would be for most people. The B@##$% raped them.
Another initial reaction which we talked over was that the students didn't know how to tell him they were not interested, because they didn't expect he would ever do that as a Master instructor.
But sending emails and texts, at some point anyone can get up the nerve to text; "We can't do this anymore, I am not comfortable with this."
One possibility, which came from my wife, and if she didn't feel this, she would never say anything like it.
One or both girls expected that he would be willing to leave his wife for them, and he didn't, and they turned on him.
As my wife put it, "females can be vicious" I said guys could do that too, and she agreed.
But there is the possibility, since he only got probation, that the type of relationship didn't really qualify as forced sexual contact.
Which he would likely be in jail for.
I am still going through it, and deciding. I do know that people can be accused of something that either they didn't do, or didn't happen exactly as accused.
As for the Shaolin credentials, on one part, I do not care, I want to learn Kung Fu and a school without spotless credentials is just as good as one that does have them.
I have been to both, and they both have their flaws and deceptions.
I know one thing, I am aware and not gullible.
I know there is alot of psychological hooks with both of them.
But I have seen the discussions on this school awhile ago, and so far, nothing is solid.
Most of it seems to center around Sin_the.


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## clfsean (Jun 26, 2013)

Fine. Thought you should know. Have a good time.

Also keep one thing in mind & this is pretty much a given from everywhere in the CMA community. SD is not Shaolin martial arts. They have a core of their own material which if you can ignore the BS & work on it on your own, you  probably will get something out of it. 

But remember that Sin The has admitted under oath about what he has done. The Soards perpetuate it. 

Cavaet Emptor.


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## Napitenkah (Jun 26, 2013)

I'll have to check it out, because I haven't really found specifically what he did, except apparently saying something about knowing a huge amount of forms, that people find hard to believe.
I do know that the soards have not even referred to who he is, or anything about him, since I have been there.
It is just on the certificate, not even on the school banner.

And they would if they wanted to, I once asked about something to do with the southern shaolin, like a one dimensional question, and Sharon went on for nearly a half an hour on everything about southern shaoilin.


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## Napitenkah (Jun 26, 2013)

In the book they wrote about it, that they give to the students, there is nothing on who Sin-the is.


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## Napitenkah (Jun 27, 2013)

Looking it over, it all stems from a thread on Bullshido, and the other MA sites went off of that.

One funny deviation was the part where Sin-the stopped doing sandburn, "Sin Thé stopped the training after a sandburn master accidentally picked up his grandchild without special gloves and the baby was killed."

But on one MA forum it had evolved to Sin the burning the baby.

Now the sandburn is not a hard thing to believe with a baby and its really sensitive skin.

But anyway, I have been to Bullshido. I was there for maybe 2 days. After the first 5 minutes, I saw that their investigations of MA people were lacking in quality and honor, and I said so. After that it was a war of words.
:wuguns:

If what they are talking about, any of it happens to be true, it was only by chance, not their efforts. I replace the D with a T. :EG:


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## clfsean (Jun 27, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> Looking it over, it all stems from a thread on Bullshido, and the other MA sites went off of that.
> 
> One funny deviation was the part where Sin-the stopped doing sandburn, "Sin Thé stopped the training after a sandburn master accidentally picked up his grandchild without special gloves and the baby was killed."
> 
> ...



This will be my last post concerning this to you. Take it for what it's worth. 

Shaolin-do / Sin The /et al ... have a history to taking forms from different sources & labeling them as their own along with some BS story about temples & monks. I've already hashed this out with other people about the forms they've absconded. Then there is the peformance & lack of understanding with those forms to the point of being silly. 

Visual proof... go look up "Jake Mace" on Youtube. He's the guy that Sin Tried to sue unsuccessfully. He's also a former black belt from the Soards school. Watch him "perform" say ... Chen Taiji or Xing or Bagua... then youtube those same things by people who practice them from the foundation up. 

ENjoy your time there. Watch out for the Kool aide, I hear it has a bite.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2013)

I've really got to side with CLFSEAN on this one. Sean and I have both had experience with SD in the past, so we aren't just rubberneckers looking in. He and I and others like Xue have all had some very solid training in legitimate Chinese arts, and that has given us perspective to know the difference when we see it, and what we see in SD is just very questionable. 

We see claims of huge amounts of material that is just impossible to hang onto. There's no way that any one person can learn all that, much less reach and then maintain "mastery" of any of it. There are only so many hours in the day, and so many days in the week, and the numbers of stuff, the endless lists of sets, it's just impossible to believe that there is any level of quality behind it.

GIven our perspective, coupled with videos that we've seen of people doing SD, we can see that the quality isn't there. The stuff that they do, it is shallow mimicry and does not indicate any true understanding of what the material is or what it is supposed to teach or what lessons and training drills exist within it. 

Add to that the claim that Sin The is THE GRANDMASTER of Shaolin, well that's just really really far-fetched. So the whole thing is just a bad deal, from our perspectives. 

Another thing: I only know Sean and Xue from the forums here. I've never met them face-to-face, and I don't think they've met each other either. So we aren't a group of guys who hang out together and have an agenda against SD. We are guys from different parts of the country, who recognize what we see and are simply speaking up to let you know.


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## Jin Gang (Jun 27, 2013)

Napitenkah said:


> I'll have to check it out, because I haven't really found specifically what he did, except apparently saying something about knowing a huge amount of forms, that people find hard to believe.
> I do know that the soards have not even referred to who he is, or anything about him, since I have been there.
> It is just on the certificate, not even on the school banner.
> 
> And they would if they wanted to, I once asked about something to do with the southern shaolin, like a one dimensional question, and Sharon went on for nearly a half an hour on everything about southern shaoilin.



Wait...are you saying Sin Kwang The is not mentioned in the student handbook?  There used to be a whole chapter about him, in the history section, since he is the Soard's teacher and the founder of the system.  I would be surprised if they wrote him out, look over that chapter again.  That would be a very big development if it were so.  Part of the confusion may be because the Soards don't call it "Shaolin Do", their schools are called "Chinese Shaolin Center", so new students won't necessarily know to look into "Shaolin Do" to find out about the style.  I was a student in Colorado Springs until '06, and have been to Denver and Boulder for tests and seminars many times.  I know that David and Sharon can talk a good game, especially David, their long-winded pre and post class lectures are famous for extending class times significantly, causing classes to run as much as an hour behind schedule.  Just because they can talk a lot about something doesn't mean they really know it, and it doesn't mean they actually know the material which they are talking about.  I can talk about all sorts of historical things and different martial arts styles, it doesn't mean I have actually studied everything I have ever read about in a book.  You are still very early in the process.  It is not too late to get out of there without too much lost investment if you are looking for actual Shaolin or Chinese martial arts.  If the internal arts are what interest you, there are schools with legitimate lineages in the Denver area, I am sure, and probably Boulder, too.  The internal arts as taught by the Soards will require correction and adjustment later from another source.  If you have significant experience in another martial art already and you just want to learn a lot of forms, then it may not be so bad.  If you have less than a few years of training or are expecting to learn actual Chinese martial arts, this isn't the place to be, IMO.


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