# The Heun Sau Misunderstood?



## Seeker (Dec 22, 2008)

In my school, the heun sua is described (by my Sifu) as a way to go from the inside of the bridge to the outside with no mention of any other use. This never set well with me because who leaves and arm out there for you to snake around. 

This weekend I was showing SLT to who friend who had never seen WC before but on the web; and to paraphrase his observation he asked. 

"Do you guys use that little hand circle move to break an opponent's grip on your wrist? Being that you guys fight in close seems like you would get your wrists grabbed a lot."

In our SLT, the heun sau occurs 18 times! That's a lot of emphasis on a single movement. Is it plausible, from this outsider's interpretation that this is the true meaning of heun sau? That hand circle move shows up in a lot of Karate and self-defence classes as a way to break an attacker's grip on your wrist.

What is it in your lineage?


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## paulus (Dec 22, 2008)

This is the way we use it: if my fuk sua is resting on your tan sau (so I'm on the outside) and you push forward with your tan sau, I can use my huen sau to redirect your energy and move inside. You must be pushing forwards though. Because if I commit to a huen sau on your stationary hand, you will be able to use my energy as I push your hand to the outside - and slap me on the ear.


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## Mystic Wolf (Dec 22, 2008)

Seeker said:


> In my school, the heun sua is described (by my Sifu) as a way to go from the inside of the bridge to the outside with no mention of any other use. This never set well with me because who leaves and arm out there for you to snake around.
> 
> This weekend I was showing SLT to who friend who had never seen WC before but on the web; and to paraphrase his observation he asked.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, heun sau is used to from the outside in to bridge the gap trap the arms and so on. We also use to break holds, grabs, ect ... Play with the Heun Sau using your foward energy and you will soon discover the many uses of heun sau.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 22, 2008)

I just read your post. An yes Huen sau has many different applications. Also you can play around with the cirlces. It can be bigger or smaller.

*I use the Huen Sau as:*
1.Anti Chin Na(Break grabs and wrist locks)
2.To circle around opponents guards to strike the face(For those who are good at blocking linear attacks)
3.To turn an opponents force off. To off balance him while striking at the same time. Huen Da.
4.To rake his guards down an grab an pull him off his foundation while punching the face at the same time

There are other ways you can use Huen Sau. But your right the little one after each hand motion is anti wrist grab and can also be used to get out of standing elbow grab or certain arm locks while standing.


Your on the right track sometimes experiences and exposures to other styles help us understand our own art better. Karate is actually descendant of Crane Boxing. So I have found from my own personal study that Karate has alot of similiarites to Wing Chun. Many will disagree but in my humble opinion if you look at certain blocks you will be able to see Wu Sau, Bong Sau, Tan Sau and Pak Sau. But this is my opinion any one may feel free to disagree...

Excellent Post by the way. Your friend may be a natural at Wing Chun...




Seeker said:


> In my school, the heun sua is described (by my Sifu) as a way to go from the inside of the bridge to the outside with no mention of any other use. This never set well with me because who leaves and arm out there for you to snake around.
> 
> This weekend I was showing SLT to who friend who had never seen WC before but on the web; and to paraphrase his observation he asked.
> 
> ...


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## matsu (Dec 23, 2008)

*Your on the right track sometimes experiences and exposures to other styles help us understand our own art better. Karate is actually descendant of Crane Boxing. So I have found from my own personal study that Karate has alot of similiarites to Wing Chun. Many will disagree but in my humble opinion if you look at certain blocks you will be able to see Wu Sau, Bong Sau, Tan Sau and Pak Sau. But this is my opinion any one may feel free to disagree...
*

i always thought that when i first started wing chun form 12 odd yrs in karate they essentially are the same blocks but the applications are very different and the formation of those blocks and their transistions are very different in real use.for example our bong is their age' uke!

as always with their incredible knack of taking something refining it standardising it and cutting things to its bare basics the japanese took a chinese art and japanesed it!
 they did same with penjing, which is the chinese bonsai art.. the chinese trees have natural shapes and form and flow whereas the japanese have developed set styles to follow with set and very rigid rules and formations within branch structures height pot sizes.
both are beautiful both work artisically both are the same art but it is the application that makes the subtle but effectiveness work.

matsu


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## matsu (Dec 23, 2008)

oh.... i have not done chi sau yet have dabbled with a bit of single chis sau and i have been told to expect to learn how to react without thinking and more importantly the outside inside gate essence. how to deal with swapping them to spoil the oppononents options so you can take control and smother them.

i cant wait for this stage to unfold, i love watching sifu and anyone else absorb and control an attack with almost no effort and even more so with their eyes shut etc.

patience grasshopper!!!

matsu


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## mook jong man (Dec 23, 2008)

We mainly used it to get on the inside of the arm and strike through with a low horizontal palm strike to the rib cage , or break a wrist grab or when doing a cut down on a opponents arm you can increase the power and control of the move by cutting straight down with elbow force and tacking a huen sau on the end of it which results in a whipping type of action that can cause whiplash to the neck or dislocated shoulder.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 23, 2008)

In the beginning Karate is rigid and overly structure. But this is simliar to Iron wire or dynamic tension. What your doing is basically Iron Wire Kung Fu. Lol...But as you get past the black belt you begin to learn how to relax and flow. Once you pass the black belt ranking you begin to move like a Gung Fu Man. 

But both are great. Gung Fu have you relax first an teach you Dynamic tension later at an advance level. Karate does it the opposite. But as for the blocks. Think about being a fighting tournament. Think about having on so regular boxing gloves. Kinda of like Kick boxing. An you are allowed to block and punch the face as well as kick the fact. Now think about your tan sau,pak sau,wu sau,bong sau overhead blocks and gan sau and kwan sao. But only with boxing gloves are closed fist. Now that you can use your hands to blocks but have close fist you have to change the energy or application. Instead of using your palms to block with pak sau you have to use your arm etc etc. Just think about it. Get some silver chinese balls and practice your blocks holding the balls. An have someone throw punches as you. Now think about how to apply them with your fist closed.




matsu said:


> *Your on the right track sometimes experiences and exposures to other styles help us understand our own art better. Karate is actually descendant of Crane Boxing. So I have found from my own personal study that Karate has alot of similiarites to Wing Chun. Many will disagree but in my humble opinion if you look at certain blocks you will be able to see Wu Sau, Bong Sau, Tan Sau and Pak Sau. But this is my opinion any one may feel free to disagree...*
> 
> 
> i always thought that when i first started wing chun form 12 odd yrs in karate they essentially are the same blocks but the applications are very different and the formation of those blocks and their transistions are very different in real use.for example our bong is their age' uke!
> ...


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## Seeker (Dec 24, 2008)

The heun, in application had never occurred to me. Either it was mentioned in class and I missed it, obvious to not warent mention... I just think it's amazing that someone from outside taught me something about my own art. 

Speaking of Karate, someone once showed me something about the majority of the blocks that seems plausible. 

Many of the blocks in the katas are not actual blocks but more like limb destructions. The reason the hand is on the hip is because it's typically holding the openant's wrist/foot while the other arm is performing the motion applying, force to the openant's joint. 

This information may have been witheld from Westerners because the Japanese did not want to give it up to larger, stronger people who could turn it against them. Or it just simply became lost on us when the MAs became sport to us. Or so the person explained.

I mean, anyone who has ever done Karate, have you ever been able to use many of those blocks in free-sparing the way they're practiced or in the katas?


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 24, 2008)

I personally have never done Karate but I have seen applications of the blocks done before. But as far as free sparring Most people do not train to use them in free sparring Why I do not know?

I've Always woundered why when people spar they mostly just punch and kick. A couple of evasive manuevers but not many other techniques. This has puzzled me. When we light spar we try to utilize all the techniques we can. But its great that you received that information. I read something about old style karate and new style karate. The older style was mostly open handed blocks. The new style was changed by Japanese to have close handed strikes. I found the article interesting. I do not recall where I read it at. But what you shared about many of motions being limb destroyers I can see that too. As a matter of fact this guy who is like in his fifties was sharing with us the hand techniques of Tae Kwon Do. It looks just like karate. He said actually TKD has more hand techniques in the forms than the feet. But most people just use their feet mostly when sparring. In fact another younger guy who likes to spar said the same thing. He stated that he thought forms were boring and he only paid attention to kicks. He showed us also grabbing the foot to pull the opponent and kick the back knee to make them fall.

But very interesting?



Seeker said:


> The heun, in application had never occurred to me. Either it was mentioned in class and I missed it, obvious to not warent mention... I just think it's amazing that someone from outside taught me something about my own art.
> 
> Speaking of Karate, someone once showed me something about the majority of the blocks that seems plausible.
> 
> ...


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## geezer (Dec 25, 2008)

Seeker said:


> In our SLT, the heun sau occurs 18 times! That's a lot of emphasis on a single movement. Is it plausible, from this outsider's interpretation that this is the true meaning of heun sau? That hand circle move shows up in a lot of Karate and self-defence classes as a way to break an attacker's grip on your wrist.
> 
> What is it in your lineage?



In my lineage, one of the WT branches originating from Leung Ting, we have many applications of huen sau, including, as your friend mentioned dissolving grabs and grapples. Interestingly, Leung Ting added... or perhaps more accurately _"restored"_ the "oi huen sau" or outside (reverse) circling huen sau to the SNT form after travelling to Fatshan in the late 1980s and meeting with some of Grandmaster Yip's early students there. We already _applied_ huen sau circling both ways, but prior to this time we only performed it in the forms as "noi huen sau" or circling from outside to the inside (clockwise for the left hand). 

Do any of you from other than WT lineages also perform huen sau both directions in your forms?


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 25, 2008)

Do you mean Wing Chun lineages or outside of Wing Chun...Your wording is confusing?



geezer said:


> Do any of you from other than WT lineages also perform huen sau both directions in your forms?


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## geezer (Dec 25, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Do you mean Wing Chun lineages or outside of Wing Chun...Your wording is confusing?



Sorry. And to think I just posted a thread about how confusing it is using Cantonese terms. Heck, _apparently I even confuse people in English!_ Anyway, what I meant was "WC" Wing Chun lineages (as contrasted with "WT" lineages -- those originating with Leung Ting's Wingtsun and it's splinter groups such as Emin Boztepe's EBMAS Wing Tzun, Jeff Webb's NWTO Wing Tsun, etc.). My guess would be that the "oi huen sau" would be absent from the Hong Kong Yip Man lineages _other than Leung Ting's_. However, it probably _is_ present in some of the earlier Fatshan Yip Man lineages and possibly other mainland Chinese lineages. 

So, _Yoshiyahu_, in your school do you have huen sau movements that circle both ways (clockwise and counterclockwise)?


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 26, 2008)

I am of Yuen Kay San lineage. An yes we have many applicatins for Huen Sau...

But I am not that knowledgeable of all the in's and outs of Yip man. But from those who I know practice Yip man. It does have a Huen Sau. Atleast the original Yip Man does. I am not big on the differences between Wing Tsun and Wing Chun. Why do some say Wing Tsun or Wing Tzun instead of Wing Chun?

Also why do some Schools have only one way to circle?

How do the yip man schools your speaking of use Huen Sau?

Actually over the years of practicing Wing Chun I discovered Wing Chun has thousands of small circles with in the linear techniques. 

I find it more and more intriqueing.



geezer said:


> Sorry. And to think I just posted a thread about how confusing it is using Cantonese terms. Heck, _apparently I even confuse people in English!_ Anyway, what I meant was "WC" Wing Chun lineages (as contrasted with "WT" lineages -- those originating with Leung Ting's Wingtsun and it's splinter groups such as Emin Boztepe's EBMAS Wing Tzun, Jeff Webb's NWTO Wing Tsun, etc.). My guess would be that the "oi huen sau" would be absent from the Hong Kong Yip Man lineages _other than Leung Ting's_. However, it probably _is_ present in some of the earlier Fatshan Yip Man lineages and possibly other mainland Chinese lineages.
> 
> So, _Yoshiyahu_, in your school do you have huen sau movements that circle both ways (clockwise and counterclockwise)?


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## geezer (Dec 26, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Actually over the years of practicing Wing Chun I discovered Wing Chun has thousands of small circles with in the linear techniques.
> 
> I find it more and more intriqueing.



I couldn't agree more. People often say that Wing Chun/Tsun is only about straight lines. Yet there are countless small circles and rotations. As one sifu pointed out to me, if a circle is small enough, it becomes a point... and a point is a section of a line. In other words, there can be no Yang without Yin and there can be no lines without circles. 

As far as the Wing Chun, Wing Tsun, and Wing Tzun spellings, basically  Grandmaster Leung Ting started using the "Wing Tsun", and later "Wingtsun" (WT) spelling to differentiate his own sub-system of the Yip Man lineage from other groups using the older Wing Chun and Ving Chun spellings. Over the years, his system diverged from the other groups in minor, yet significant ways. As some of his instructors split off to form their own associations, they typically kept the initials "WT" to indicate that they were of the Leung Ting-Yip Man lineage. In the US, this would include Master Jeff Webb's NWTO Wing Tsun and Master Emin Boztepe's EBMAS Wing Tzun. But really, we are all branches of the same family. That's why I usually refer to our collective art as WC/WT to include all of us 'chunners.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 26, 2008)

Yes me I just say Wing Chun or Yung Chun....





geezer said:


> I couldn't agree more. People often say that Wing Chun/Tsun is only about straight lines. Yet there are countless small circles and rotations. As one sifu pointed out to me, if a circle is small enough, it becomes a point... and a point is a section of a line. In other words, there can be no Yang without Yin and there can be no lines without circles.
> 
> As far as the Wing Chun, Wing Tsun, and Wing Tzun spellings, basically Grandmaster Leung Ting started using the "Wing Tsun", and later "Wingtsun" (WT) spelling to differentiate his own sub-system of the Yip Man lineage from other groups using the older Wing Chun and Ving Chun spellings. Over the years, his system diverged from the other groups in minor, yet significant ways. As some of his instructors split off to form their own associations, they typically kept the initials "WT" to indicate that they were of the Leung Ting-Yip Man lineage. In the US, this would include Master Jeff Webb's NWTO Wing Tsun and Master Emin Boztepe's EBMAS Wing Tzun. But really, we are all branches of the same family. That's why I usually refer to our collective art as WC/WT to include all of us 'chunners.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 29, 2008)

The huen sao is a great tool 
When people start off, they find it very hard to perform because their wrist 'cracks' or doesn't feel natural

After a few years the wrist becomes very powerful

We train drills in Kamon where an opponent grabs the wrist and we move around it using huen sao, but it is very important to use the correct posture and positioning. It starts slow, but eventually gets to a level where an opponent uses all his trength to grip and we still get out of it

Its fun when you get beginners who are brand new to wing chun and grab you how a normal person would grab you (ie full force). When you easily free yourself it freaks them out

We do not break a grip, but rather work on gaining 'topgame'. BJJ guys will know what I'm talking about here


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 29, 2008)

Yea I was doing some Chi Sau in my Tai Chi class...There is this big huge guy very strong...He was trying to stop me from striking him by holding my arm...I broke free very easily...he was impressed and so was the guy watching....I simply freed my arms and fingers by using huen sau!





Kamon Guy said:


> The huen sao is a great tool
> When people start off, they find it very hard to perform because their wrist 'cracks' or doesn't feel natural
> 
> After a few years the wrist becomes very powerful
> ...


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 30, 2008)

My first ever leson in wing chun humbled me because I as this big strong (less fat) guy against this tiny little instructor and he just destroyed any grip/hold that I did on him with ease

Really woke me up as to the subtle side of martial arts


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 30, 2008)

Aww excellent...




Kamon Guy said:


> My first ever leson in wing chun humbled me because I as this big strong (less fat) guy against this tiny little instructor and he just destroyed any grip/hold that I did on him with ease
> 
> Really woke me up as to the subtle side of martial arts


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