# Styles dying out



## Finlay (Sep 9, 2018)

with the progress of time there must have been many styles that have died out. today's rare style is tomorrow's relic or even forgotten style.

maybe the popularity of MMA which pulls many practitioners to a small handful of styles is adding to this process. I have heard from a few TKD guys that their classes have got much smaller over the years and they attribute this to BJJ and the likes attracting people way from their. for me I have my doubts of the validity of this however that is what they say.

Also we have the addition of RBSD style systems which give much more to the person seeking self defence than maybe many of the traditional styles can.

so are styles continuing to die out? if so what styles are dying?


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## Danny T (Sep 9, 2018)

Styles are the individual unique characteristic of someone or something and is usually shown within performance. They come and go. 
Now Systems - the organized arranged principles, facts, concepts, philosophy and method developed to create/build something that will endure over time tend to remain. Often some systems seem to align, overlap, and merge because they tend to agree on the major principles and methodologies. Take many of the different grappling systems for instance, other than terminology and some rules when used in competition other than a few stylistic differences a lot of them are identical.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2018)

I think it is easy to wax nostalgic over this issue.  The truth is yes, systems have died out and will continue to do so while new systems will arise.  This is how human culture tends to change and evolve.

A lot of new systems are repackages of earlier systems, or contain similar or identical techniques and strategies and principles, so perhaps the earlier systems are not truly disappearing.  Perhaps they are simply gaining a new format and a new presentation under a different name.

At any rate, nothing is forever and that might be an ok thing.


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## Martial D (Sep 9, 2018)

Finlay said:


> with the progress of time there must have been many styles that have died out. today's rare style is tomorrow's relic or even forgotten style.
> 
> maybe the popularity of MMA which pulls many practitioners to a small handful of styles is adding to this process. I have heard from a few TKD guys that their classes have got much smaller over the years and they attribute this to BJJ and the likes attracting people way from their. for me I have my doubts of the validity of this however that is what they say.
> 
> ...


I prefer the word evolving.


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## Headhunter (Sep 9, 2018)

I think that's propaganda from the Mma fanboys saying everyone hates traditional martial arts now because of UFC. Well in my experience a lot of martial artists don't know or care about mma. I still see Kung fu schools or karate and taekwondo schools that are very full. Not everyone wants to fight hard and get hurt. In my Krav Maga class there's a number of people who have said if th club was all about hard sparring they'd quit because they don't want to go work beat up or not be able to play with their kids because they've got broken ribs.


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## skribs (Sep 9, 2018)

Finlay said:


> with the progress of time there must have been many styles that have died out. today's rare style is tomorrow's relic or even forgotten style.
> 
> maybe the popularity of MMA which pulls many practitioners to a small handful of styles is adding to this process. I have heard from a few TKD guys that their classes have got much smaller over the years and they attribute this to BJJ and the likes attracting people way from their. for me I have my doubts of the validity of this however that is what they say.
> 
> ...



My TKD school continues to grow.  We have 10 different classes based on belt/age, with 15-25 people per class.  We're almost at the point where we either need to turn people away, extend our schedule, expand to a second location, or move to a bigger location.

So it's not a universal problem for TKD.


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## Headhunter (Sep 9, 2018)

skribs said:


> My TKD school continues to grow.  We have 10 different classes based on belt/age, with 15-25 people per class.  We're almost at the point where we either need to turn people away, extend our schedule, expand to a second location, or move to a bigger location.
> 
> So it's not a universal problem for TKD.


The problem is people like Joe rogan constantly saying how UFC proved every other style is ineffective which is simply not true


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## Martial D (Sep 9, 2018)

Finlay said:


> with the progress of time there must have been many styles that have died out. today's rare style is tomorrow's relic or even forgotten style.
> 
> maybe the popularity of MMA which pulls many practitioners to a small handful of styles is adding to this process. I have heard from a few TKD guys that their classes have got much smaller over the years and they attribute this to BJJ and the likes attracting people way from their. for me I have my doubts of the validity of this however that is what they say.
> 
> ...


Naw, I don't think tma is going anywhere.

It's true that many, like myself, have mostly abandoned the idea that there is secret deadly hidden wisdom in forms and katas for a more modern approach, but at the same time there will always be people that do it for other reasons. The cerimony, the costumes, the structure, the aesthetic, the social aspect or... because they still believe there is secret deadly hidden wisdom in those katas and forms.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> The problem is people like Joe rogan constantly saying how UFC proved every other style is ineffective which is simply not true


Who is Joe Rogan?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 9, 2018)

Finlay said:


> what styles are dying?


When knife, spear, and arrow are used in battle field, The heavy armor is useful. When bullet can go through heavy armor, nobody wear heavy armor any more. But if that heavy armor can stop bullet, It will exist forever.

If a Taiji master can go to UFC and beat up everybody, Taiji will not die out. One good Taiji fighter is all we need.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When knife, spear, and arrow are used in battle field, The heavy armor is useful. When bullet can go through heavy armor, nobody wear heavy armor any more. But if that heavy armor can stop bullet, It will exist forever.
> 
> If a Taiji master can go to UFC and beat up everybody, Taiji will not die out. One good Taiji fighter is all we need.


If a Taiji practitioner can use his taiji skills to successfully defend himself, AND he is able to effectively teach those skills to someone else who can then also effectively defend himself with those skills, then taiji will not die out.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with UFC.

Here is the thing tho, and this is not limited to taiji:  the next generation may make some changes to the methodology into something that they feel is a more effective training methodology.  This is as it should be.  Every generation should make alterations if those alterations will make the training more effective.

After some generations, it is possible that the downstream methodology does not resemble taiji (or whatever system) as it was in the past.  It might even be appropriate to identify it as a different system, or not.  That depends on many factors.

That’s life.  Nothing remains the same forever.  Not every methodology or every approach to training works equally well for every person.  So we all strive to do the best we can get with what we have.  If we learn something better, or if we have an insight to make changes that work better for us, then we should do that.  And if we teach the method, then we need to teach it to the best of our understanding and that includes any insights or changes that we have made.  Our downstream lineage will reflect those changes IF the next generation also finds the method effective.


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2018)

There is just more competition out there these days. And so harder for a system to make it's way.

If you do want to make the MMA comparison bear in mind you are also looking at gyms that train 6 days a week with multiple systems and separate expert coaches. 

Just the access to facilities is becoming competitive. I heard of one opening up that is 24hr and has 24hr access to Thai pad holders. So 3am you want to rock in there will be a guy there to hold pads for you.

The individual  clubs and styles are doing surprisingly well considering.


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## Danny T (Sep 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There is just more competition out there these days. And so harder for a system to make it's way.
> 
> If you do want to make the MMA comparison bear in mind you are also looking at gyms that train 6 days a week with multiple systems and separate expert coaches.
> 
> ...


And with that over the years the openness of more and more schools, clubs, gyms to visiting martial artists has grown tremendously. Back in the 70s and even up to in the early 2000s when traveling and attempting to visit other schools I was turn away more than being allow to train. Today I very seldom get turned away as a visitor when traveling and just finding a place to possibly train is far easier.


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## Headhunter (Sep 9, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When knife, spear, and arrow are used in battle field, The heavy armor is useful. When bullet can go through heavy armor, nobody wear heavy armor any more. But if that heavy armor can stop bullet, It will exist forever.
> 
> If a Taiji master can go to UFC and beat up everybody, Taiji will not die out. One good Taiji fighter is all we need.


A taiji isn't going to beat up everyone, a boxer isn't going to beat up everyone, a jiu jitsu guy won't beat up everyone. That's the point for Mma competition you need more than 1 style


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## dvcochran (Sep 9, 2018)

Totally agree with most of what everyone said.
In the spirit of the thread, can you think of any specific MA styles/stems that are no longer around?


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## Buka (Sep 9, 2018)

I haven’t seen any Monkey Kung Fu in a long time. And I’m glad.


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## JR 137 (Sep 9, 2018)

My CI and several others with his amount of experience told me back in the early 70s when he started, there were two schools in the area - a judo school and a Kyokushin school.  And they were in the same building - judo on the first floor, Kyokushin on the second.  And they’d periodically go upstairs and downstairs to train together.  Those were the only two options.  

As they grew and the students got up in rank, some of the seniors started opening branch dojos.  At one point, the head Kyokushin guy was testing over 1,000 students at a time (not all together, but the total number over the course of a weekend).

Then other MAs started trickling in.  Now we’ve got quite a few styles, organizations, and dojos.  The area I live has about 1.25 million people.  Obviously that number has grown significantly over the decades, but there are far more dojos per capita now than back then.  If you’ve got 1 million people looking for MA training and 10 dojos, you’ll have very good numbers.  If you’ve got the same million people and 10,000 dojos, there’s obviously going to be less people in each dojo.

People have far more choices nowadays.  The more choices, the more each individual place is going to be a small fish in a big pond.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Totally agree with most of what everyone said.
> In the spirit of the thread, can you think of any specific MA styles/stems that are no longer around?


I believe it is safe to assume that many combat systems have disappeared over generations.  Perhaps not all had names or were systammatically organized, but people all over the world and throughout history have been fighting each other and developing their methods for doing so.

For example, I would suggest that the combat methods of the Comanches and Apaches and Aztecs and Toltecs are no longer practiced and have been forgotten.  Likewise I suggest that many systems from Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Americas have disappeared.


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## dvcochran (Sep 9, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I believe it is safe to assume that many combat systems have disappeared over generations.  Perhaps not all had names or were systammatically organized, but people all over the world and throughout history have been fighting each other and developing their methods for doing so.
> 
> For example, I would suggest that the combat methods of the Comanches and Apaches and Aztecs and Toltecs are no longer practiced and have been forgotten.  Likewise I suggest that many systems from Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Americas have disappeared.


I agree. Just wondered if anyone knew specific names so they could be researched.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I agree. Just wondered if anyone knew specific names so they could be researched.


I do not have an answer to that.


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> The problem is people like Joe rogan constantly saying how UFC proved every other style is ineffective which is simply not true



Except that claim is backed by the evidence that people see with their own eyes. It's pretty hard to dispute Rogan's claims when we see Hung Ga masters with 30 years experience getting KO'd by a street fighter with probably about 6 months worth of MMA training.

I know a few people around here dismiss that sort of stuff for "reasons", but you're deluding yourself if you don't think it's having a major impact among the population at large.


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Except that claim is backed by the evidence that people see with their own eyes. It's pretty hard to dispute Rogan's claims when we see Hung Ga masters with 30 years experience getting KO'd by a street fighter with probably about 6 months worth of MMA training.
> 
> I know a few people around here dismiss that sort of stuff for "reasons", but you're deluding yourself if you don't think it's having a major impact among the population at large.


Can you pOst the vid you describe above, please


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## Martial D (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Except that claim is backed by the evidence that people see with their own eyes. It's pretty hard to dispute Rogan's claims when we see Hung Ga masters with 30 years experience getting KO'd by a street fighter with probably about 6 months worth of MMA training.
> 
> I know a few people around here dismiss that sort of stuff for "reasons", but you're deluding yourself if you don't think it's having a major impact among the population at large.


Ya, but you are forgetting that MMA has rules. If only biting, groin strikes and eye pokes we're legal, tai chi , aikido and hung ga master's would be wiping the floor with everyone.


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Can you pOst the vid you describe above, please


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ya, but you are forgetting that MMA has rules. If only biting, groin strikes and eye pokes we're legal, tai chi , aikido and hung ga master's would be wiping the floor with everyone.



Exactly. No one buys that BS anymore. There's plenty of avenues to step up, and those that have stepped up have gotten stepped on. It's to the point now where its not even a surprise. Oh, another "Tai Chi" master got spanked by some MMA guy in China? It must be Tuesday!


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


>


Thanks, so other than a random title, were the bit that says he is a master of 30 Plus years and the mmA guy only has 6 months.

That just seems to be two random blokes fighting,

I could quite easily post a vid of me beating someone up and stick a title on it that he is an mma pro Or a kung fu master,,,,surlEy some actual evidence is required to make the claims yOu did ?


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Thanks, so other than a random title, were the bit that says he is a master of 30 pkus years and the mma goy only has 6 months.
> 
> That just seems to be two random blokes fighting,
> 
> I could quite easily post a vid of me beating someone up and stick a title on it that he is an mma pro.



The Hung Ga exponent in the video is Sifu Sharif Bey. He's a rather prominent figure in New York's Kung Fu community.

https://www.kungfusyracuse.com/about


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

I must confess, he can perform a lovely kata:






Too bad zero of it translated into actual fighting ability.


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> The Hung Ga exponent in the video is Sifu Sharif Bey. He's a rather prominent figure in New York's Kung Fu community.
> 
> https://www.kungfusyracuse.com/about


Ok so we have established he is an old man, where your bit that the other guy ihad only 6months training


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Ok so we have established he is an old man, where your bit that the other guy ihad only 6months training



Based on his fighting ability, that would be my assessment. I've seen MMA guys with 1-2 years experience with much smoother transitions and combinations, and those guys aren't even competitive.


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Based on his fighting ability, that would be my assessment. I've seen MMA guys with 1-2 years experience with much smoother transitions and combinations, and those guys aren't even competitive.


So no evidence at all for that claim?, You just thought it sounded better,

Lets try another one, in what othe Sporting endeavour/ arena, would yOu normally exspect a 50 year old to beat a 25yo, ? Golf maybe, ! even snooker / darts player have lost it by 50


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> So no evidence at all for that claim?, You just thought it sounded better,
> 
> Lets try another one, in what othe Sporting endeavour/ arena, would yOu normally exspect a 50 year old to beat a 25yo, ? Golf maybe, ! even snooker / darts player have lost it by 50



The evidence is in the sloppiness of the takedown and his general combinations.

Anyways...

Boxing, Bjj or MMA. I highly doubt a 25 year old off the street could beat Mike Tyson, Renzo Gracie or Randy Couture for example.


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> The evidence is in the sloppiness of the takedown and his general combinations.
> 
> Anyways...
> 
> Boxing, Bjj or MMA. I highly doubt a 25 year old off the street could beat Mike Tyson, Renzo Gracie or Randy Couture for example.


 he isnt a 25 yo off the street, he has by your own admision training, you just dont know how long, that training is.

Have you any vids of iron mike beating up a 25 Yo mmaer, if not that just suposition.

And the kung fu guy isnt mike tyson, who was extraordinary,, he is just a middled aged over weight guy.( and mike in his 30s keot loosing to 25yo of no great talent)

So the head line 25 yo beats up old man , doesnt fit your agenda ?


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## pdg (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Boxing, Bjj or MMA. I highly doubt a 25 year old off the street could beat Mike Tyson, Renzo Gracie or Randy Couture for example.



Depends, are eye gouges, groin strikes and biting allowed?


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> he isnt a 25 yo off the street, he has by your own admision training, you just dont know how long, that training is.



Again, you can tell he hasn't had much training. 



> Have you any vids of iron mike beating up a 25 Yo mmaer, if not that just suposition.



Do you honestly believe the kid in that video could KO Mike Tyson?



> And the kung fu guy isnt mike tyson, who was extraordinary,, he is just a middled aged over weight guy.( and mike in his 30s keot loosing to 25yo of no great talent)



Okay, put this kid up against a Bjj practicioner/instructor with 30 years experience. Do you honestly think we'd get the same result?



> So the head line 25 yo beats up old man , doesnt fit your agenda ?



An old man with 30 years experience in traditional kung fu who happily accepted a challenge from a random kid off the street.


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

pdg said:


> Depends, are eye gouges, groin strikes and biting allowed?



Like that matters at all.


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Again, you can tell he hasn't had much training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your just Persisting with unsubtaniated claims, they dont be come true if you keep saying them, he isnt a kid of the street, you claimed he was a street fighter with 6 months training, Nether of which yiu can back up.

Iron mike isnt a reasonable comparison,he was an extraordinary human being, and if i believe he could or he count is irelivent, you cant back it up, like wise with your bbj claim, its just grasping at straws

.if happy to accept a chaLlenge us also irelivent, the world is full of delusional old men who thinK they still have it.

Fighting is athletic pursuit, if your going to make inter style comparsions, the very least you need is two people who are evenly matched in age and physicsl condition. Or your just going to get the younger/ fitter one winning 9times out of ten


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Your just Persisting with unsubtaniated claims, they dont be come true if you keep saying them, he isnt a kid of the street, you claimed he was a street fighter with 6 months training, Nether of which yiu can back up.



So you believe that that kid is a highly trained fighter?



> Iron mike isnt a reasonable comparison,he was an extraordinary human being, and if i believe he could or he count is irelivent, you cant back it up, like wise with your bbj claim, its just grasping at straws



I like how you keep harping on Tyson, while ignoring the other examples like Renzo Gracie and Randy Courture. You asked me to name a sport where older men are still competitve, and I named 3 professionals from those sports. Would it be fair to consider Sifu Bey a professional in his "sport"?



> .if happy to accept a chaLlenge us also irelivent, the world is full of delusional old men who thinK they still have it.
> 
> Fighting is athletic pursuit, if your going to make inter style comparsions, the very least you need is two people who are evenly matched in age and physicsl condition. Or your just going to get the younger/ fitter one winning 9times out of ten



Except Bey himself believed that his style was sufficient enough to defeat this younger fighter despite the age difference. That's sort of the point.


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## pdg (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Like that matters at all.



Do you honestly have that much trouble with sarcasm?

Should I insert a smiley next time?


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## Martial D (Sep 10, 2018)

pdg said:


> Do you honestly have that much trouble with sarcasm?
> 
> Should I insert a smiley next time?


The problem is you aren't using my special sans serif sarcasm font.


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So you believe that that kid is a highly trained fighter?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No i asked you to name sports where you would NORMALLY  exspect a 50 yo to beat a 25yo, not to name exceptional sports men, in those sports,

Im not claiming the mma is a top draw fighter, your claiming he has ONLY 6 months training, you need to back that up, and you cant !

Like i say, the fact he is dELUSIONAL doesnt help your CASE ANY, i have 50 years experiance playing soccer, that helps not a bit if im playing 25 yo, no matter how much i believe it should


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> No i asked you to name sports where you would NORMALLY  exspect a 50 yo to beat a 25yo, not to name exceptional sports men, in those sports,



Except this was a challenge match, not a sanctioned athletic competition, so that argument is nonsense.



> Im not claiming the mma is a top draw fighter, your claiming he has ONLY 6 months training, you need to back that up, and you cant !



I've back it up several times. It doesn't take much to look up advanced MMA fighters and see the difference in skill level between them and this young man.



> Like i say, the fact he is dELUSIONAL doesnt help your CASE ANY, i have 50 years experiance playing soccer, that helps not a bit if im playing 25 yo,



The case is that we have a kung fu master with over 30 years experience getting decked by some random guy off the street in a thread talking about why people are abandoning TMA. The fact that he is delusional about his fighting ability definitely helps my case.

 I'm not seeing how you playing soccer for half a century has any relevance to the topic whatsoever.


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Except this was a challenge match, not a sanctioned athletic competition, so that argument is nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No your just back to making wild claims.

Yiu need to show the mma guy only had 6 months training.

Your making a big issue out if the tma, guys experiance, whilst ignoring the fact that someone eith 30 + years experiance is also getting old, and old is a curse in an athetic eventS most  25 yocan beat ben johnson now,


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## Headhunter (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Except that claim is backed by the evidence that people see with their own eyes. It's pretty hard to dispute Rogan's claims when we see Hung Ga masters with 30 years experience getting KO'd by a street fighter with probably about 6 months worth of MMA training.
> 
> I know a few people around here dismiss that sort of stuff for "reasons", but you're deluding yourself if you don't think it's having a major impact among the population at large.


And has hung Ga become extinct or died out? No it hasn't so there we go.

Yeah you're one of the Mma fan boys I was thinking of


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> No your just back to making wild claims.
> 
> Yiu need to show the mma guy only had 6 months training.



His "takedown" showed that level of experience.



> Your making a big issue out if the tma, guys experiance, whilst ignoring the fact that someone eith 30 + years experiance is also getting old, and old is a curse in an athetic eventS most  25 yocan beat ben johnson now,



So you're saying that in the world of TMA, having decades of experience means nothing, or isn't considered an example of legitimacy? In TMA, experience and lineage means a great deal, and Bey has both.

Also his age means nothing if he's purposely willing to fight someone younger than he is.


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> And has hung Ga become extinct or died out? No it hasn't so there we go.
> 
> Yeah you're one of the Mma fan boys I was thinking of



Hung Ga was rare in the US to begin with. I know for a fact that Bey's business took a hit because of that video.


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> His "takedown" showed that level of experience.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No your unqualified opinion means nothing, give some facts to back up your claim, 

The world of tma, is delusional if it belives experiance trumps physical condition, but the fact they maybe dekusional doesnt help your debate with me, as im not in anyway making that claim, in fact the exact opposite.


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> No your unqualified opinion means nothing, give some facts to back up your claim,



I did. Considering that I've trained MMA fighters in the past, I would hardly consider my opinion "unqualified".



> The world of tma, is delusional if it belives experiance trumps physical condition, but the fact they maybe dekusional doesnt help your debate with me, as im not in anyway making that claim, in fact the exact opposite.



You started this "debate" by trying to say that these were just two random guys fighting. When I proved that one of the fighters was a respected Kung Fu instructor with decades of experience you then defaulted to trying to argue that this kid isn't anything more than some random guy off the street challenging someone else.

What claim are you attempting to make exactly?


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I did. Considering that I've trained MMA fighters in the past, I would hardly consider my opinion "unqualified".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No i said they looked like two ramdom guys fighting, i didnt take my opinion and state ut as a fact, like you did, ?

So rather than drag on with this for pages, can we concluded you have no facts to back up your claim he onky has 6 months training,

, im claiming that young fit men tend to beat okd fat men,,,So we are left with yiung man with an undetermend amount of training, beats up middle aged over weight guy, ..

What else does that vid prove?


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## Headhunter (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Hung Ga was rare in the US to begin with. I know for a fact that Bey's business took a hit because of that video.


I really don't care about beys school whoever that is. The point is it's not died out which is the whole point of this thread. So you can keep up with your Mma is number 1 propaganda bs if you want but the fact is it's not true. Traditional styles are most certainly not dying out


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> No i said they looked like two ramdom guys fighting, i didnt take my opinion and state ut as a fact, like you did, ?



Thanks once again for proving my point. If a Kung Fu practicioner with over 30 years experience and hundreds of students looks like a "random guy fighting" then that says quite a bit about his training, and why such styles are declining in popularity.



> So rather than drag on with this for pages, can we concluded you have no facts to back up your claim he onky has 6 months training,



So are you arguing that this kid has had far more than 6 months worth of training?

,





> im claiming that young fit men tend to beat okd fat men,,,So we are left with yiung man with an undetermend amount of training, beats up middle aged over weight guy, ..
> 
> What else does that vid prove?



Yes they do, if they're two random guys. However, if the older man has had extensive martial arts training and the younger fit man hasn't, then we expect the older man with a high level of training to overcome the younger assailant's strength and speed. Just like we expect a woman who has extensive training in the martial arts to be able to overcome the strength and speed of a larger man. If we didn't expect this, why train in martial arts to protect ourselves?


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## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I really don't care about beys school whoever that is. The point is it's not died out which is the whole point of this thread.



No, it hasn't died out.... yet.

Here's two interesting articles about traditional martial arts in China and how MMA has begun to wipe out their native systems. I can only imagine that this is accelerating as MMA and BJJ has grown in popularity in China:

Exit the Dragon? Kung Fu, Once Central to Hong Kong Life, Is Waning
Kung Fu’s Identity Crisis

And in America:
Where have all the martial artists gone? Should we blame MMA?




> So you can keep up with your Mma is number 1 propaganda bs if you want but the fact is it's not true. Traditional styles are most certainly not dying out



Again, it isn't propaganda if that belief is being supported over and over and over again.


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## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Thanks once again for proving my point. If a Kung Fu practicioner with over 30 years experience and hundreds of students looks like a "random guy fighting" then that says quite a bit about his training, and why such styles are declining in popularity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No we dont theres good reason why most sports men retire between 30 and 40, the amiunt of skill and experiance cant cope with the fall off in there physical condition.

Ive made the piint before that a lot of people would do better at defending themselves if they did weight trainibg rather ( or togethet with )than ma, particularly older people, for who the gains in skill will selspdom make up for the lack if cobditioning

No im claiming you cant prove YOUR claim


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> No we dont theres good reason why most sports men retire between 30 and 40, the amiunt of skill and experiance cant cope with the fall off in there physical condition.



Again, we're not talking about a sanctioned sports event, we're talking about a challenge match between two people on the street.



> No im claiming you cant prove YOUR claim



Again, my claim is that he is an amateur to a beginner in MMA. What exactly are you claiming otherwise?


----------



## Mitlov (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> No your unqualified opinion means nothing, give some facts to back up your claim,
> 
> The world of tma, is delusional if it belives experiance trumps physical condition, but the fact they maybe dekusional doesnt help your debate with me, as im not in anyway making that claim, in fact the exact opposite.



Imagine what would happen if we held boxing to that standard, and evaluated Freddie Roach, not on his coaching ability, but on whether he personally could beat some young dude from another style in a challenge match.

Whether or not you like Hung Gar, the fact that an athletic youth beat up an older Hung Gar instructor really doesn't prove much.


----------



## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Again, we're not talking about a sanctioned sports event, we're talking about a challenge match between two people on the street.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, my claim is that he is an amateur to a beginner in MMA. What exactly are you claiming otherwise?


Back to wild clsims, they werent two people onn the street, they were in some sort of structure 

Itvwas an athletic challenge, what has sanctioned got to do with that, it would be an " athletic event" c event if they decieded to have a foot race, the younger/ fitter one would still most likely win

No your claim was specifically he only had 6 months training, are you with drawing that claim now,? then we can ask you to back up yiyr latest one


----------



## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Imagine what would happen if we held boxing to that standard, and evaluated Freddie Roach, not on his coaching ability, but on whether he personally could beat some young dude from another style in a challenge match.
> 
> Whether or not you like Hung Gar, the fact that an athletic youth beat up an older Hung Gar instructor really doesn't prove much.


Yes , my point exactly, your instuctOr doesNt have to beat the world or even be very good to be a goOd instructor


----------



## Martial D (Sep 10, 2018)

Before: How can you expect someone that practices a system that takes 30 years to master to beat anyone before 30 years of training?

After: Yes he has had 30 years of training, but how can you expect someone so old to beat anyone?


The ouroboros of TMA.


----------



## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Before: How can you expect someone that practices a system that takes 30 years to master to beat anyone before 30 years of training?
> 
> After: Yes he has had 30 years of training, but how can you expect someone so old to beat anyone?
> 
> ...


Well thats either a fair pOint or a strawman ? , who has claimed it takes 30 Plus years to master ? not me for sure


----------



## Martial D (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well thats either a fair pOint or a strawman ? , who has claimed it takes 30 Plus years to master ? not me for sure


Just an observation. While you have not mentioned the training time, that's usually how it goes.(the recent aikido threads come to mind)


----------



## Mitlov (Sep 10, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Before: How can you expect someone that practices a system that takes 30 years to master to beat anyone before 30 years of training?
> 
> After: Yes he has had 30 years of training, but how can you expect someone so old to beat anyone?
> 
> ...



Straw man.  I can't comment on other styles, but I've never once met anyone in karate, TKD, or TSD who claims you need 30 years to have useful skills.


----------



## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Just an observation. While you have not mentioned the training time, that's usually how it goes.(the recent aikido threads come to mind)


Well you cant hold me respobsible for that, ive had heated debates, with the more delusional, for saying things like, if you start as an adult, your as good as your going to be, in any practical sence, in about say 5 years, quite proberbly a good bit less.wiith application and effort,


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Back to wild clsims, they werent two people onn the street, they were in some sort of structure



When I say "street" I'm talking about an unpredictable environment outside of the Kung Fu practitioners dojo and not involving one of his students.



> Itvwas an athletic challenge, what has sanctioned got to do with that, it would be an " athletic event" c event if they decieded to have a foot race, the younger/ fitter one would still most likely win



Unless the person he was racing against was a professional runner with decades of experience. The same applies for fighting.



> No your claim was specifically he only had 6 months training, are you with drawing that claim now,? then we can ask you to back up yiyr latest one



I'm still claiming that he had limited experience. My guess would be 6 months. However, you still haven't answered my question: What is YOUR claim in regards to his training time? If you agree with me that its a short amount of time (under 12 months), then what exactly are you arguing here?


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Imagine what would happen if we held boxing to that standard, and evaluated Freddie Roach, not on his coaching ability, but on whether he personally could beat some young dude from another style in a challenge match.
> 
> Whether or not you like Hung Gar, the fact that an athletic youth beat up an older Hung Gar instructor really doesn't prove much.



So now we're saying that Kung Fu becomes ineffective if you're fighting a younger/more fit person?

Interesting.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well you cant hold me respobsible for that, ive had heated debates, with the more delusional, for saying things like, if you start as an adult, your as good as your going to be, in any practical sence, in about say 5 years, quite proberbly a good bit less.wiith application and effort,


I wasn't, and am not. My post wasn't a reply to you in specific.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 10, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Straw man.  I can't comment on other styles, but I've never once met anyone in karate, TKD, or TSD who claims you need 30 years to have useful skills.


You missed the context.

Which was excuses for repeated failures in the combat application of TMA.


----------



## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> When I say "street" I'm talking about an unpredictable environment outside of the Kung Fu practitioners dojo and not involving one of his students.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dont need a claim, for his tRaining level, you MADE  a claim , you need to back it up.

The kung fu guy is not a profesional fighter, he diesnt to either of iur knowledge, fight for money, he may be a profesional t Instructor, but thats not the same thing, thats just another wild claim to make a case iut of nothing.

So far youve claimed, the guy has only six months training, you have no idea, !

That they are fighting on a street?????????????
ThaT the kung fu guy is a profesional fighter,

And you say the tma guys are delusional


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> I dont need a claim, for his tRaining level, you MADE  a claim , you need to back it up.



I've backed it up multiple times.



> The kung fu guy is not a profesional fighter, he diesnt to either of iur knowledge, fight for money, he may be a profesional t Instructor, but thats not the same thing, thats just another wild claim to make a case iut of nothing.
> 
> So far youve claimed, the guy has only six months training, you have no idea, !
> 
> ...



So again, is your argument that Kung Fu is ineffective against younger, more fit assailants?


----------



## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So again, is your argument that Kung Fu is ineffective against younger, more fit assailants?


No my argument is any style is in increasing amounts ineffective against a younger fitter opoinent, dependent on how much younger fitter he happens to be.  That even more so if the guy is trained,


----------



## pdg (Sep 10, 2018)

Just a slight observation...

I'm not sure at all that age is relevant in much of a way.

I'm fitter and more able than plenty of people that are younger than me, and I'm more than sure that there exist people older than me who are fitter and more able...


----------



## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

pdg said:


> Just a slight observation...
> 
> I'm not sure at all that age is relevant in much of a way.
> 
> I'm fitter and more able than plenty of people that are younger than me, and I'm more than sure that there exist people older than me who are fitter and more able...


Its younger / fitter, which are if your dealing with trained athletes synomous, but Older and fitter works to, up to a point, where your reaction speed goes,,,but im very much aware that a 28 year old me, would just destroy a 59 year old me, even if the old me has a lit more ma experiance


----------



## pdg (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Its younger / fitter, which are if your dealing with trained athletes synomous, but Older and fitter works to, up to a point, where your reaction speed goes,,,but im very much aware that a 28 year old me, would just destroy a 59 year old me, even if the old me has a lit more ma experiance



Fair enough.

Personally speaking though, right now I'm probably as fit as I've ever been.

I'm hoping for a few more uphill years too...


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> No my argument is any style is in increasing amounts ineffective against a younger fitter opoinent, dependent on how much younger fitter he happens to be.  That even more so if the guy is trained,



That's fine, but why are you applying it in this case?

Could it be because you dont want to admit that Bey's training was ineffective?


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> No, it hasn't died out.... yet.
> 
> Here's two interesting articles about traditional martial arts in China and how MMA has begun to wipe out their native systems. I can only imagine that this is accelerating as MMA and BJJ has grown in popularity in China:
> 
> ...


You don't half talk a load of rubbish. Mma has been around in mainstream since 1993 it's been popular in Asia even longer and in25 years name me one style that's completely died out....so you can keep churning out your nonsense about how Mma is the best ever and now everyone hates every other style apart from the amazing perfect Mma but it's simply not true and frankly you're making yourself look silly by saying this rubbish


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> You don't half talk a load of rubbish. Mma has been around in mainstream since 1993 it's been popular in Asia even longer and in25 years name me one style that's completely died out....so you can keep churning out your nonsense about how Mma is the best ever and now everyone hates every other style apart from the amazing perfect Mma but it's simply not true and frankly you're making yourself look silly by saying this rubbish



You clearly didnt read the articles.


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That's fine, but why are you applying it in this case?
> 
> Could it be because you dont want to admit that Bey's training was ineffective?


Lol you've got an obsession with this bey guy you've mentioned him about 20 times. That's 1 person out of thousands


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You clearly didnt read the articles.


No I didn't haven't got time to read all that nonsense. I know what I've seen with my own eyes and no style is dying out


----------



## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That's fine, but why are you applying it in this case?
> 
> Could it be because you dont want to admit that Bey's training was ineffective?


Because, its extremley aplicable to the vid you chose to post showibg a 50 ish yo against a 26ish yo.

If you were comparing like with like, lets say a 25 yoweightvtraining running, karate fitness fanatic against against the same, with mma training yiu might have a case to build,


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Lol you've got an obsession with this bey guy you've mentioned him about 20 times. That's 1 person out of thousands



Because Jobo took it upon himself to make excuses for him.

The main point is that people can get mad at Joe Rogan saying that MMA and BJJ are the way to go, but the simple reality is that his notions get reinforced by incidents such as what I posted.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Because, its extremley aplicable to the vid you chose to post showibg a 50 ish yo against a 26ish yo.
> 
> If you were comparing like with like, lets say a 25 yoweightvtraining running, karate fitness fanatic against against the same, with mma training yiu might have a case to build,



So you're saying that a Kung Fu master with a great lineage and 30 years experience cant beat some random guy wanting to box him?

That's not a good way to build faith in your system of traditional martial arts.


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Because Jobo took it upon himself to make excuses for him.
> 
> The main point is that people can get mad at Joe Rogan saying that MMA and BJJ are the way to go, but the simple reality is that his notions get reinforced by incidents such as what I posted.


There's no such thing as the way to go. It's personal opinion of what people like and any style can be effective and anyone who says all this oh Mma is perfect and the best thing ever just makes themselves look silly to be honest.


----------



## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So you're saying that a Kung Fu master with a great lineage and 30 years experience cant beat some random guy wanting to box him?
> 
> That's not a good way to build faith in your system of traditional martial arts.


No, im saying as i have on repeated occasion, that 25 yo beating old men up only proves that 25yo have greater physical attrivutes than 50 yo, 

And we have far from etablished the mma is just random guy, yiu have no idea who he is, how long he has trained, in fact anything at all about him


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> There's no such thing as the way to go. It's personal opinion of what people like and any style can be effective and anyone who says all this oh Mma is perfect and the best thing ever just makes themselves look silly to be honest.



If I were a young person looking for a martial art to take because I was getting bullied, and all I see are videos of other styles getting beat by MMA, why would I join those other styles over MMA?

That's the problem.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> No, im saying as i have on repeated occasion, that 25 yo beating old men up only proves that 25yo have greater physical attrivutes than 50 yo,



So Bey's martial arts training was worthless? After all, Hung Gar is supposed to improve your physical atteibutes.

Wow, you're just making this worse and worse.



> And we have far from etablished the mma is just random guy, yiu have no idea who he is, how long he has trained, in fact anything at all about him



Beyond the fact that he has crappy takedowns (that Bey couldn't stop).


----------



## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> If I were a young person looking for a martial art to take because I was getting bullied, and all I see are videos of other styles getting beat by MMA, why would I join those other styles over MMA?
> 
> That's the problem.


Hmm, people who are getting buLlied may not wish to climb in a ring with A bully and get beaten up, just a thought,


----------



## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So Bey's martial arts training was worthless? After all, Hung Gar is supposed to improve your physical atteibutes.
> 
> Wow, you're just making this worse and worse.
> 
> ...


You cant seriously be running a debate, that old age doesnt make you less of a fighter than you were,? Really,


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> If I were a young person looking for a martial art to take because I was getting bullied, and all I see are videos of other styles getting beat by MMA, why would I join those other styles over MMA?
> 
> That's the problem.


Well people do so that's the end of the argument....a lot of people don't know or don't give a damm about mma or UFC. The facts are no style has died out in 25 years of Mma which you know is true because you ignored my question about which style has completely died out. Now don't bother replying I'm not going to waste anymore time on an Mma fanboy


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Hmm, people who are getting buLlied may not wish to climb in a ring with A bully and get beaten up, just a thought,



Just FYI, not every MMA gym is going to force you into a ring to fight.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> You cant seriously be running a debate, that old age doesnt make you less of a fighter than you were,? Really,



Indeed it can. However, even when fighters get older, that doesn't mean some less trained kid off the street should be able to just walk up and knock them out.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> No i asked you to name sports where you would NORMALLY  exspect a 50 yo to beat a 25yo, not to name exceptional sports men, in those sports,
> 
> Im not claiming the mma is a top draw fighter, your claiming he has ONLY 6 months training, you need to back that up, and you cant !
> 
> Like i say, the fact he is dELUSIONAL doesnt help your CASE ANY, i have 50 years experiance playing soccer, that helps not a bit if im playing 25 yo, no matter how much i believe it should



Boxing.


----------



## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Indeed it can. However, even when fighters get older, that doesn't mean some less trained kid off the street should be able to just walk up and knock them out.


Your doibg it again, h is not some kid off the street, he is a trained mma fighter, And not a kid either, a fit young  man at his physical peak


----------



## WaterGal (Sep 10, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I agree. Just wondered if anyone knew specific names so they could be researched.



Not read through the whole thread yet, but there is probably anthropological research on that. 

We have a lot of immigrant families at our school, and I've had the treat of some of the parents bringing in photos or videos of some different martial arts from their homelands. One Indian mom, for example, showed me a video of some traditional Indian sword-based martial art that she saw on a trip back home. I don't remember the name of it, though.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Your doibg it again, h is not some kid off the street, he is a trained mma fighter, And not a kid either, a fit young  man at his physical peak



So remember kiddies, if you take Kung Fu for decades and some 25 year old punk with a little MMA training comes your way, curl up into a little ball and just take your beating, because according to Jobo, you got no chance!


----------



## WaterGal (Sep 10, 2018)

I think that there probably are going to be some styles that die out, or have died out. Some of that is because of competition from other styles - MMA or otherwise. Some of that is just that they were never very popular to begin with, had a niche appeal, didn't market themselves well, or had organizational problems that lead to the breakup of the governing body of the organization (perhaps after the death of the founder). These things happen. It's hard to create a thing that lasts.


----------



## jobo (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So remember kiddies, if you take Kung Fu for decades and some 25 year old punk with a little MMA training comes your way, curl up into a little ball and just take your beating, because according to Jobo, you got no chance!


Well no, or maybe, if your old, try not to get in fights with 25 yo with mma training, or 25 yo that play rugby or hockey or, no just avoid 25yo if you can,


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Now don't bother replying I'm not going to waste anymore time on an Mma fanboy



Cool. In the meantime check out those articles I posted. I think you'll find them interesting (or depressing).


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 10, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well no, or maybe, if your old, try not to get in fights with 25 yo with mma training, or 25 yo that play rugby or hockey or, no just avoid 25yo if you can,


Or just not get into fights full stop. Fighting is stupid at any age. Fighting as a grown adult is even more stupid


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Cool. In the meantime check out those articles I posted. I think you'll find them interesting (or depressing).


Thank you I certainly will not


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2018)

If you can't find any modern training method that can replace the ancient training method, that ancient training method will never die out.

For example, to train "head lock", besides the ancient "pole/tree hanging", I can't find any modern training method yet.






To develop double arms twisting power, I also can't find any modern gym equipment that's better than the ancient Gon twisting.


----------



## Mitlov (Sep 10, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So now we're saying that Kung Fu becomes ineffective if you're fighting a younger/more fit person?
> 
> Interesting.



I'm not saying anything specific to kung fu.  With my experience in Olympic fencing, and I think as a safe rule for any athletic sport, the value of a coach is in their coaching ability, not their competitive performance compared to their students.  There's a reason you don't see Olympic gymnastics coaches competing in the Olympics, or World Cup Soccer coaches playing in the World Cup.

I used Freddie Roach because he's a legendary boxing coach who himself has a physical disability that wouldn't let him personally compete in boxing.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> I'm not saying anything specific to kung fu.  With my experience in Olympic fencing, and I think as a safe rule for any athletic sport, the value of a coach is in their coaching ability, not their competitive performance compared to their students.



In Bjj we do both.


----------



## Headhunter (Sep 10, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> I'm not saying anything specific to kung fu.  With my experience in Olympic fencing, and I think as a safe rule for any athletic sport, the value of a coach is in their coaching ability, not their competitive performance compared to their students.  There's a reason you don't see Olympic gymnastics coaches competing in the Olympics, or World Cup Soccer coaches playing in the World Cup.
> 
> I used Freddie Roach because he's a legendary boxing coach who himself has a physical disability that wouldn't let him personally compete in boxing.


Another example is cus d'amato. Guy was a bit fat guy but a great trainer. Though I disagree with how he handled Tyson he did made make him a great boxer


----------



## Buka (Sep 10, 2018)

Twenty five year olds are sort of cute.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 10, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Another example is cus d'amato. Guy was a bit fat guy but a great trainer. Though I disagree with how he handled Tyson he did made make him a great boxer



Yes. But then you go off the results of the students.

Which the Gracie challenge  did.


----------



## Mark Lynn (Sep 10, 2018)

Finlay said:


> with the progress of time there must have been many styles that have died out. today's rare style is tomorrow's relic or even forgotten style.
> 
> maybe the popularity of MMA which pulls many practitioners to a small handful of styles is adding to this process. I have heard from a few TKD guys that their classes have got much smaller over the years and they attribute this to BJJ and the likes attracting people way from their. for me I have my doubts of the validity of this however that is what they say.
> 
> ...



I believe that styles die out over the years, generally because the head instructor/founder/ or whatever has passed on and there was.....
1) No one good enough or serious enough to take up the torch (so to speak) and carry the art forward.

2) The art or system was no longer needed and it died out due to lack of use.

3) The art or system didn't have a large enough following that gave it the momentum to survive long term after the founder's passing.

4) No clear line of succession so the art split apart and was renamed by all of the top students and over time it morphed into new arts.

5) Competition brought about by other arts coming in that were more popular.



dvcochran said:


> Totally agree with most of what everyone said.
> In the spirit of the thread, can you think of any specific MA styles/stems that are no longer around?



Specific arts nowadays, names? Nope sorry.   I can give examples of arts that died that I've read about.

In the book "Cebuano Eskrima Beyond the myth" in the 2nd half of the book the authors were doing just that, researching and documenting different styles or methods of the FMAs that were dying out due to the styles not be needed or no one to pass the teachings on to.   These were mostly village arts or systems that were used to fight off Muslim raiders in days gone by.

https://www.amazon.com/Cebuano-Eskrima-Celestino-C-Macachor/dp/1425746217

In the book American Shaolin: Flying Kicks, Buddhist Monks, and the Ledgend of the Iron Crotch; the author describes meeting old masters in China who didn't have someone to train and pass the art on to.

https://www.amazon.com/American-Shaolin-Flying-Buddhist-Odyssey-ebook/dp/B000PDYVR0

In WWII many karate masters died in the war, along with their students and such and from that several styles and a lot of written texts on karate and Okinawan martial arts were lost.  



Flying Crane said:


> I believe it is safe to assume that many combat systems have disappeared over generations.  Perhaps not all had names or were systammatically organized, but people all over the world and throughout history have been fighting each other and developing their methods for doing so.
> 
> For example, I would suggest that the combat methods of the Comanches and Apaches and Aztecs and Toltecs are no longer practiced and have been forgotten.  Likewise I suggest that many systems from Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Americas have disappeared.



Agreed.   What we have nowadays is back door engineered some training methods from Europe's sword systems, American Bowie knife, European/American staff, tomahawk, American Indian systems etc. etc. but the transmission of the actual system wasn't really handed down unbroken.   Passed down in tact from family to family or tribe to tribe.

A lot of research has gone on to try and replicate these systems but they weren't handed down like the Japanese/Chinese systems were.


----------



## Mark Lynn (Sep 10, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I agree. Just wondered if anyone knew specific names so they could be researched.



If I'm not mistaken the Cebuano Myth book talks about this in that they did the research by going out to the remote coastal villages to find these masters who many were very advanced in years.   Often to find out they couldn't really show anything (not that they weren't real) due to age.   These were people that fought in battle against others who were trying to kill, raid, or enslave them and had passed their skills in some way to their family friends in the village, but those raids had died out and the skills systems lost over time.

One problem with researching this subject is that not everyone had a "style" or system like we are use to seeing from Japan and China.   I had heard that unlike Japanese, Okinawan, and Chinese arts that systems from Indonesia, the Philippines didn't stress lineage they stressed the fight.   So there was a lot of mixing of styles and systems and no clear record of transmission.   This is probably true with the American arts/styles or whatever as well.


----------



## Mitlov (Sep 10, 2018)

Are there dojos that teach shuri-te, naha-te, or tomari-te anymore?  I mean, there are dojos of karate styles that evolved out of those three, but what about those styles themselves?


----------



## Mark Lynn (Sep 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> So no evidence at all for that claim?, You just thought it sounded better,
> 
> Lets try another one, in what othe Sporting endeavour/ arena, would yOu normally exspect a 50 year old to beat a 25yo, ? Golf maybe, ! even snooker / darts player have lost it by 50



Kendo maybe.  I have no proof for this because I have no experience with Kendo.   However I heard some seasoned martial artists tell me that Kendo ka get to their prime in their 40's-50's.  In early 1990 (?) I attended a workout (video'd and took photos) with the Dallas Kendo club where I had a friend who was practicing kendo.   At that workout was the oldest living kendo ka, and at the time he was considered to be a national treasure of Japan.   I saw him spar with these 4th and 5th dans from Japan as well as the locals and he wiped the floor with them I think he was in his 70's/80's at that time.


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 11, 2018)

Mark Lynn said:


> I believe that styles die out over the years, generally because the head instructor/founder/ or whatever has passed on and there was.....
> 1) No one good enough or serious enough to take up the torch (so to speak) and carry the art forward.
> 
> 2) The art or system was no longer needed and it died out due to lack of use.
> ...



I like your back door comment. I think it is an accurate description of many of todays arts and how they have or are becoming an amalgamation. I can certainly see how the training required to fight an enemy has changed over the years. Especially on a large scale such as training an army. I wonder if during WWII there was training in hand-to-hand combat for when a fight for your life went to the ground. I would say no because a moving body on the ground was fair game to someone else's knife of gunshot. In other words there wasn't time for a long drawn out encounter because there would be many other people to deal with at the same time. I think this is also where a lot of the MMA argument about TMA not working gets skewed. In the era when a style/system was created, the need to teach large groups to work together may have been much more important over one person taking significant time to deal with one enemy. The battle strategy is so different today from every facet. I hear of solders regularly carrying 90lbs of gear. That makes me wonder how in the world they can do any kind of hand to hand combat. I also think the last two generations are so generated from the U.S. being in a major conflict that this has also skewed the perception of conflict. Sorry, I got way off topic.


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## jobo (Sep 11, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I like your back door comment. I think it is an accurate description of many of todays arts and how they have or are becoming an amalgamation. I can certainly see how the training required to fight an enemy has changed over the years. Especially on a large scale such as training an army. I wonder if during WWII there was training in hand-to-hand combat for when a fight for your life went to the ground. I would say no because a moving body on the ground was fair game to someone else's knife of gunshot. In other words there wasn't time for a long drawn out encounter because there would be many other people to deal with at the same time. I think this is also where a lot of the MMA argument about TMA not working gets skewed. In the era when a style/system was created, the need to teach large groups to work together may have been much more important over one person taking significant time to deal with one enemy. The battle strategy is so different today from every facet. I hear of solders regularly carrying 90lbs of gear. That makes me wonder how in the world they can do any kind of hand to hand combat. I also think the last two generations are so generated from the U.S. being in a major conflict that this has also skewed the perception of conflict. Sorry, I got way off topic.


Yes in ww2 soldiers at least british soldier's were taught hand to hand fighting to a very basic standard, but then they were only taught anything to a basic standard, you could go from new recriut to flying a Combat spitfire in abiyt a month.

Im not convinced that any of the empty hand sytles were ever ibtended as battle field styLes, though the japanese arts are very similar to millitary drilling, so there is clearly military influence,


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## Mark Lynn (Sep 11, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> *I like your back door comment.* I think it is an accurate description of many of todays arts and how they have or are becoming an amalgamation.



Back door comment?  I'm sorry I don't understand.  Back door?



dvcochran said:


> I can certainly see how the training required to fight an enemy has changed over the years. Especially on a large scale such as training an army. *I wonder if during WWII there was training in hand-to-hand combat for when a fight for your life went to the ground.* I would say no because a moving body on the ground was fair game to someone else's knife of gunshot. In other words there wasn't time for a long drawn out encounter because there would be many other people to deal with at the same time. I think this is also where a lot of the MMA argument about TMA not working gets skewed. In the era when a style/system was created, the need to teach large groups to work together may have been much more important over one person taking significant time to deal with one enemy.



There was hand to hand combat training but it was very basic, and used only as a last resort, when your weapons were lost or unavailable.   After WWII the US military started training their people; SAC, and others, by bringing over top Judo and karate instructors from Japan to train our soldiers in hand to hand combat.

This actually helped revitalize the martial arts and I think it also helped lift the ban of not practicing the martial arts in Japan.  In Japan martial arts such karate and Kendo, were used to help build spirit within the Japanese military and LEOs leading up to WWII so after their defeat I believe the leaders wanted to ban their practice.



dvcochran said:


> *I wonder if during WWII there was training in hand-to-hand combat for when a fight for your life went to the ground.*



I'd say yes but not like everyone thinks.  I don't think it was jujitsu based; but more basic wrestling and beating the guy to a pulp.   I have an old copy of one of the basic like civilian coast guard books that was for self defense during war time (WWII era ) (in case an armed force landed on the US shore).   If I remember right one of the photos showed one guy smashing his helmet into the face of a solider and I think he was on the ground.  

The rest of your quote there was spot on I think. 



dvcochran said:


> The battle strategy is so different today from every facet. I hear of solders regularly carrying 90lbs of gear. That makes me wonder how in the world they can do any kind of hand to hand combat. I also think the last two generations are so generated from the U.S. being in a major conflict that this has also skewed the perception of conflict. Sorry, I got way off topic.



But they are not carry 90 pounds of gear every time they go out I don't think.  Hand to hand combat could be them getting into a struggle over a gun, or another weapon.   While the bad guy might be trying to kill the solider, the solider might be trying to subdue them for Intel purposes.


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## Mark Lynn (Sep 11, 2018)

jobo said:


> Im not convinced that any of the empty hand sytles were ever ibtended as battle field styLes, though the japanese arts are very similar to millitary drilling, so there is clearly military influence,



I don't think the battlefield arts like jujitsu were intended to be used instead of carrying a weapon.  Rather they were a last resort in case you didn't have any weapons available (for whatever reason) in the heat of a battle.

Karate changed when it came to Japan and the Japanese I think took it to the mass line drilling stage in order to teach their troops.   It could have been used for formation training, team building, spirit building etc. etc.


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## dvcochran (Sep 12, 2018)

Mark Lynn said:


> Back door comment?  I'm sorry I don't understand.  Back door?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was referring to @Flying Crane "s reference to back door engineering styles/systems.


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## wanderingstudent (Sep 12, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I was referring to @Flying Crane "s reference to back door engineering styles/systems.


I think folks mean "reverse engineer".


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## wanderingstudent (Sep 12, 2018)

The comment about styles be comprised of "deadly techniques", which once removed leaves nothing to use; is BS.

Regarding the videos of Sheriff, it is an example of what could happen; when you put yourself out there.  Props to Sheriff, for doing that.  When I would meet up with people, I didn't always win.


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## Hanzou (Sep 13, 2018)

wanderingstudent said:


> The comment about styles be comprised of "deadly techniques", which once removed leaves nothing to use; is BS.
> 
> Regarding the videos of Sheriff, it is an example of what could happen; when you put yourself out there.  Props to Sheriff, for doing that.  When I would meet up with people, I didn't always win.



It is also an example of what happens when you focus too much on forms instead of practical fighting technique.


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## Mark Lynn (Sep 13, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I was referring to @Flying Crane "s reference to back door engineering styles/systems.


Thanks


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## dvcochran (Sep 13, 2018)

wanderingstudent said:


> I think folks mean "reverse engineer".


Yes, it is the same thing.


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## Douwe Geluk (Oct 4, 2018)

My traditional Tai Chi school (maybe not considdered a martial art) grows and grows.

So i think it is not the same for all styles. Maybe it also depends on the location and what is the trend in that area


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 4, 2018)

Douwe Geluk said:


> My traditional Tai Chi school (maybe not considdered a martial art) grows and grows.
> 
> So i think it is not the same for all styles. Maybe it also depends on the location and what is the trend in that area


Why would it not be considered a martial art?


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## Headhunter (Oct 4, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Why would it not be considered a martial art?


Because you don't see it In a cage duh....didn't you know that anything not done in a sport can't be considered real martial arts. I know this because I train UFC mate don't mess with me


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 4, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Because you don't see it In a cage duh....didn't you know that anything not done in a sport can't be considered real martial arts. I know this because I train UFC mate don't mess with me


You don't get enough concussions, so I'm not listening to you. Show me a vid of a lump on your head, then we can talk.


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## Headhunter (Oct 4, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> You don't get enough concussions, so I'm not listening to you. Show me a vid of a lump on your head, then we can talk.


What u say...sory I forgot own name for minutes where da heck my car gone....good enough?


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## Headhunter (Oct 4, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> What u say...sory I forgot own name for minutes where da heck my car gone....good enough?


And before anyone suggests anything. I'm not making fun of people with brain injuries. I'm making fun of myself. After I lost a boxing match I pretty much said those exact words while a friend filmed it lol so yeah only person I'm making fun of is myself


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 4, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> And before anyone suggests anything. I'm not making fun of people with brain injuries.


 Directly contradicts 





> I'm making fun of myself.


...
(Entirely joking)


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## Headhunter (Oct 4, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Directly contradicts ...
> (Entirely joking)


Yes I meant I was making fun of something I personally did not making fun of people with brain injuries in general


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## pdg (Oct 4, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yes I meant I was making fun of something I personally did not making fun of people with brain injuries in general



I don't think you entirely understood the joke...

Maybe time to book a scan of some sort?


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## Headhunter (Oct 4, 2018)

pdg said:


> I don't think you entirely understood the joke...
> 
> Maybe time to book a scan of some sort?


Lol I wasn't sure. It's hard to read the tone of a comment online


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## SOD-WC (Oct 5, 2018)

A bit late to the party.

This is the only time i can see how a older guy can beat someone younger is kyuzo mifune. But this is in a show of pure skill and technique. If you watch the vid the students he is going up againt can physically take him out and beat him up.  Someday i hope to be this good.


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## Hanzou (Oct 6, 2018)

SOD-WC said:


> A bit late to the party.
> 
> This is the only time i can see how a older guy can beat someone younger is kyuzo mifune. But this is in a show of pure skill and technique. If you watch the vid the students he is going up againt can physically take him out and beat him up.  Someday i hope to be this good.



The only time?


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## SOD-WC (Oct 7, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> The only time?


How old was he? He must be about 70? Thats a fun vid to watch, good sense of humor. But out of interests how much skill/long does a white belt have?  

Regardless its pure skill and technique that won, there was no punch up


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## Hanzou (Oct 7, 2018)

SOD-WC said:


> How old was he? He must be about 70? Thats a fun vid to watch, good sense of humor. But out of interests how much skill/long does a white belt have?
> 
> Regardless its pure skill and technique that won, there was no punch up



Mid-60s I think? But yeah, you're not going to muscle your way out of a Relson Gracie guard.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 7, 2018)

Finlay said:


> with the progress of time there must have been many styles that have died out. today's rare style is tomorrow's relic or even forgotten style.
> 
> maybe the popularity of MMA which pulls many practitioners to a small handful of styles is adding to this process. I have heard from a few TKD guys that their classes have got much smaller over the years and they attribute this to BJJ and the likes attracting people way from their. for me I have my doubts of the validity of this however that is what they say.
> 
> ...


It's hard to say what a "style dying out" actually means. If the approach changes and it no longer looks the same? If the name changes? If it is Americanized? If it merges with another system? If the name becomes non-specific?

All of those things happen all the time. Which ones are the death of a style?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There is just more competition out there these days. And so harder for a system to make it's way.
> 
> If you do want to make the MMA comparison bear in mind you are also looking at gyms that train 6 days a week with multiple systems and separate expert coaches.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I love the feel of those big MMA places. I'd love to see someplace with that kind of shared space and mix-and-match mindset that has both the standard MMA stuff and some more traditional stuff. I'd love to teach and train someplace like that. And the TMA would evolve faster there in meaningful ways.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 7, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Straw man.  I can't comment on other styles, but I've never once met anyone in karate, TKD, or TSD who claims you need 30 years to have useful skills.


It's not far off the mark for some branches of Aikido, where it's expected to take 20 years to develop significant skill.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 7, 2018)

SOD-WC said:


> A bit late to the party.
> 
> This is the only time i can see how a older guy can beat someone younger is kyuzo mifune. But this is in a show of pure skill and technique. If you watch the vid the students he is going up againt can physically take him out and beat him up.  Someday i hope to be this good.


Those students aren't trying to beat him. They are testing their skill with the same level of strength he brings.


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## SOD-WC (Oct 7, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Those students aren't trying to beat him. They are testing their skill with the same level of strength he brings.


Ah yes i agree, its a test of pure skill and technique, he doing this in god mode.
Maybe its because he has done it for so long but from wiki it also says he is a natural as well.

Amazes me everytime i watch it , its so flawless.


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## drop bear (Oct 7, 2018)

SOD-WC said:


> How old was he? He must be about 70? Thats a fun vid to watch, good sense of humor. But out of interests how much skill/long does a white belt have?
> 
> Regardless its pure skill and technique that won, there was no punch up



I know a guy who is 69 and still wrecks people.


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## SOD-WC (Oct 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I know a guy who is 69 and still wrecks people.


You mean like in the ring/sparing? Holy crap how fit is this guy?


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## Saheim (Oct 15, 2018)

I kind of think the different styles an systems are like dog breeds.  I've read, that if left alone, all dogs would look like a pit, a wolf, or a dingo.  Humans started selectively breeding dogs with particular traits and created "breeds".  I look at fighting the same way.  "Mixed martial arts"? Martial arts have been mixed for as long as cultures have.  I think humans kinda broke fighting into categories then focused on that particular element of fighting.  Also human tried to replicate what certain (skilled) people/fighters did, copied them, taught others how to imitate them and that morphed into a "ryu".

Are styles dying out?  Were they ever a real thing to begin with?


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## FriedRice (Oct 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When knife, spear, and arrow are used in battle field, The heavy armor is useful. When bullet can go through heavy armor, nobody wear heavy armor any more. But if that heavy armor can stop bullet, It will exist forever.
> 
> If a Taiji master can go to UFC and beat up everybody, Taiji will not die out. One good Taiji fighter is all we need.




Your best chances had already past, 25 years ago in UFC 1, 2 and maybe 3....when all techniques, including the anti-rape ones, could have been used and not get DQ'ed.  

Now, the UFC is a multi billion dollar business. Your Taiji master in a small, converted warehouse space dojo is going up against fine tuned athletes with tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in resources (at the highest levels) spent to get them ready for each fight.....ranging from nutritionists, sports meds/docs,  top of the line equipment, well paid sparring partners (w/some that mimics the exact opponent), etc.


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## FriedRice (Oct 23, 2018)

Buka said:


> I haven’t seen any Monkey Kung Fu in a long time. And I’m glad.



maybe they evolved.


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## Saheim (Oct 23, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Your best chances had already past, 25 years ago in UFC 1, 2 and maybe 3....when all techniques, including the anti-rape ones, could have been used and not get DQ'ed.
> 
> Now, the UFC is a multi billion dollar business. Your Taiji master in a small, converted warehouse space dojo is going up against fine tuned athletes with tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in resources (at the highest levels) spent to get them ready for each fight.....ranging from nutritionists, sports meds/docs,  top of the line equipment, well paid sparring partners (w/some that mimics the exact opponent), etc.



Well said!

Here's a funny tidbit - back when UFC allowed (pretty much) everything, ya would have expected a more violent exciting fight.  Nope!  It was a bore.  I remember a couple of crazy things happening but, mostly, I remember two guys clinching on the ground for 25 minutes (no rounds, no requirement to "work").  I actually left to go get beer, once, came back and they were still (basically) spooning on the mat.  Yea MMA turned into a sport but it also got fun to watch.


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