# a website to look at



## Shrewsbury (Aug 31, 2006)

my website is http://www.bodyelectricmethod.com

and i just put together a small website for my teacher, it doesn't have much yet, but please take a look

http://cleveland-taichi-bagua.com

thank you!


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 31, 2006)

Cool site.  If you'd have me, I'd love to drop in at your school sometime when I visit my parents in Tallmadge.

Jeff


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## pstarr (Aug 31, 2006)

Very nice!


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## Shrewsbury (Aug 31, 2006)

you would be more than welcomed!


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## Andrew Green (Aug 31, 2006)

Now please don't take offense to this, but have you considered getting a professional web designer to put something together for you? Websites can be one of your best promotional devices, and are worth a little investment to get something professional up and running.


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## Shrewsbury (Sep 1, 2006)

No offense taken. I like the sites the way they are and rank in the top 10 of google with my key words.
one day i will take the time to clean things up.
but really thanks for your input and advice, you will find i do not take offense to just about anything.


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## CL1V3 (Sep 5, 2006)

great site...love it


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## funnytiger (Sep 5, 2006)

I'm with Andrew on this one. Just because your site is listed amongst the top 10 doesn't mean anything. Especially if you can't keep people there to get the information needed to join the school!

I've been doing web and graphic design professionally for about 5 years and before I got the degree I did web design as a serious hobby.

My professional opinion? It looks very amateurish and I wouldn't take the site (or the school) seriously. 

Just some honesty.

- ft


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## Shrewsbury (Sep 6, 2006)

> My professional opinion? It looks very amateurish and I wouldn't take the site (or the school) seriously.
> 
> Just some honesty


 
your honesty is always welcomed, but if you think a website shows martial skill, then I suppose you would be all over any high rank advertisement as well, such as Joe Schmoe's grandmaster or 10th dan.

The website is amateurish, I made it, with no training. The site has generated many calls, and I only accept students after a serious interveiw and have turned away way more people than I have accepted.

Again folks this is just the internet, no way to tell a persons skill.

But I do honestly respect your honesty!


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 6, 2006)

Shrewsbury

It is a nice page with a lot of information, and I mean no offense, but I have to agree with Andrew Green and funnytiger. I use to be a web admin and I think you could only benefit from a professional page design. 

No advertisements just font type choices, font color choices, background color choices, etc. And once again no offense but the over use of the "?" stands out to me most of all. 

The number of font types and sizes as well as the number of colors used for background and font matter and if there are too many users get annoyed if there are to many drastic color changes you can get the same effect on a user. I would hate to see this be not viewed just because of small things that a few simple changes, nothing drastic, could improve.

XS


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## Shrewsbury (Sep 6, 2006)

Thank you, I will certainly consider it!

Again I hope I have not sounded offended, I do appreciate everyones opinions.


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## funnytiger (Sep 6, 2006)

Shrewsbury said:


> your honesty is always welcomed, but if you think a website shows martial skill, then I suppose you would be all over any high rank advertisement as well, such as Joe Schmoe's grandmaster or 10th dan.
> 
> The website is amateurish, I made it, with no training. The site has generated many calls, and I only accept students after a serious interveiw and have turned away way more people than I have accepted.
> 
> ...


 
You are absolutely right Shrewsberry. A website can not show martial skill. Although, you never know, it may be in the near future!  I suspect you wouldn't have a website if you weren't interested in getting students. Your selection process is inconsequential. 

It all boils down to being able to "sell" yourself to the public. If that is not your intention then there is no need to have a website. Whether that website is there for information or selling a product it has to be "sold" to the end user. The longer that person stays on your website, the better chance you have of someone calling that number. 

If a website is visually offensive (and I'm not talking nude pics of Rosanne Barr here) or if the navigation is frustrating or if the text is hard to read (as Xue Sheng pointed out) then you are losing potential students!

But it is your choice and your website. You asked for feedback and you've gotten some really good advice from people who are either have professional experience with websites or people who can objectively tell you whether they think your website is doing its job.


- ft


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## Shrewsbury (Sep 6, 2006)

I really do appreciate your input, and must honestly say you have me thinking. the website was originally just for fun and to put out some info I thought was quality and might help others, but you have made some good points.

Thank you!


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## Andrew Green (Sep 6, 2006)

A clean website is like a clean school, nothing to do with skill, but it does make that important first impression.


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## bignick (Sep 6, 2006)

Andrew has nailed on the head, I'm also a professional developer, although most of the work I do isn't "design".  Web design isn't easy, even for the professionals, so don't feel bad.  

When it comes to the look and feel it's all about personal taste, really.  But although you can decorate your house any way you feel, if the outside is painted gaudy and badly decorated, people may complain to the Homeowner's assocation it's an eyesore.  Although it's your website, and you really can do whatever you damned well please, remember that it's still a public front and considerations have to be made in the design to appeal to the "average" person.  Nothing has to be fancy, really a simple clean look is all you need to portray professionalism.  No one expects martial artists to have great computer skills, so  you don't really have to have an eye-candy popping site.  

My only recommendations would be to drop the lightning background, repeating images that don't blend to form a seamless pattern always look a little tacky, and drop the sound.  That's just my personal preference, I never want to be greeted by sound on a webpage unless I specifically know it's a video link or something.  Can be an interruption, especially if someone is viewing the site in a library, office, or someplace else where the thunder noises could be an interruption.

Peace,
Big Nick


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## ArmorOfGod (Sep 7, 2006)

I have to say something about Shrewsbury: he can take criticism very well.  We should all strive to be so humble.

Shrewsbury, the one thing that bugs me about your site is at the very bottom, you have links where people can click and find more about your style on google and yahoo.  Not only is that unnecessary, but it could lead them to other schools.

AoG


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## funnytiger (Sep 7, 2006)

I completely agree with you AoG. Humility is something that is hard to come by now a days. Shrewsbury has definitely been a good sport.



bignick said:


> Andrew has nailed on the head, I'm also a professional developer, although most of the work I do isn't "design".  Web design isn't easy, even for the professionals, so don't feel bad.



I appreciate you making the distinction there. Always been a pet peeve of mine. Web design and development are two completely different positions with different duties. I haven't met too many developers who could design their way out of a paper box and my programming skills suck. lol

- ft


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## Shrewsbury (Sep 7, 2006)

Thank you for your wonderful comments.


Do you think I should get rid of my back ground (lightning)? the sound effects? and perhaps use just a white background, and a smaller image. I obviously need to clean things up all around, but perhaps this will be a good step in the right direction.

I really do appreciate all the time you all have put into looking at my site and giving advice, and being a bagua person, I am always up for positive change.


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## bignick (Sep 7, 2006)

You don't have to go for plain white, just make sure it's pleasing to the eye and easy to read.


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## HKphooey (Sep 7, 2006)

Shrewsbury said:


> Thank you for your wonderful comments.
> 
> Do you think I should get rid of my back ground (lightning)? the sound effects? and perhaps use just a white background, and a smaller image. I obviously need to clean things up all around, but perhaps this will be a good step in the right direction.
> 
> I really do appreciate all the time you all have put into looking at my site and giving advice, and being a bagua person, I am always up for positive change.


 
At least you have done step one...got a website.  Many school owners/teachers are still not accepting this form of marketing.  It is (and has been) one of the martial arts best forms of proliferation.  It will be one of the smartest business moves yet.  About half of the our schools new students are coming from the web.  Everyone has offered some great advice and you have taken their feedabck very well.  Keep in mind, they (fellow martial artists) are your userbase.

Background images and sound tend to distract the user (and sometimes drive the user away) from the important information.  Try a basic white or maybe a parchment background.  

I conduct user interface studies on a monthly basis for work (Business & Web Development).  Users are looking for information in a concise, clean and easy to read format.  

Creating a professional website may not represent your MA skills, but it will lend itself to your credibility as a business or offering.  Just something as simple as adding a photo of yourself adds "credibility" to your website.  One of the biggest fears of the web is deception/fraud, so one needs to put their best foot forward.

Just like Andrew mentioned a school does not need to be flashy and have top of the line equipment, but it must be clean and professional.

Do a search on the same words you have incorporated on your site.  See what other sites come up.  See how they lay out their pages, what info they offer, etc.  Checkout some of the other MT user websites out there.

They are some many free template websites out their where you can get free layout designs.  Many cheap hosting companies offer easy to use templates as part of their programs.  

Just like MA training, keep at it!


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 7, 2006)

bignick said:


> You don't have to go for plain white, just make sure it's pleasing to the eye and easy to read.


 
Exactly

And I like what HKphooey is saying.

As for plain white, think of walking into a brightly lit room from a dark room. Does that sound pleasant?

Go for softer tones in color and use fonts that stand out on whatever background you use. Yellow and bright pink are rarely good choices for color. 

You have some great suggestions here and I never considered myself a Web designer or developer, just an admin so I am mainly worried about accessibility and dissemination of information. My first page I always like it to fit in one screen so the user has little scrolling to do when they first get there. After that if they click a link scrolling is fine. 

Also remember not everyone has high-speed internet so at least the first page, in my opinion, should be set up to load fairly quickly for someone using a 56.6 modem

As to Shrewsbury for his response to criticism :asian:


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## HKphooey (Sep 7, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> Also remember not everyone has high-speed internet so at least the first page, in my opinion, should be set up to load fairly quickly for someone using a 56.6 modem


 
Correct.  I believe the latest stat is around 56% of the US is on high-speed.   Keep away from Flash if possible.  It is great looking, but tougher get high indexing in the search engines.


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## funnytiger (Sep 7, 2006)

Just along the same lines with the basics:

- Always design for the lowest common denominator. That includes screen resolutions, internet speed, etc.

- Less is more. Keeping your website clean, crisp and simple will go a LONG way.

- No one likes to read. Its sad, but true. Don't get too wordy. Keep the information relevant and easy to read. I know the website I designed for my kung fu school has quite a bit of text on there and if I could edit it waaay down I would. Unfortunately content isn't under my control.

I'm hopefully going to be launching v2 of our schools website soon. Cleaner, simpler, neater. Gotta keep it fresh!

If you want some tips/tricks/help please do not hesitate to PM me. I love what I do and would be more than happy to lend a hand. 

- ft


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## ArmorOfGod (Sep 7, 2006)

Shrewsbury,
Where does your web page hosting come from?  Is it provided by the company who gave you your dotcom, or is it from one of those free sites like tripod.com , geocities.com , topcities.com , moonfruit.com , or webspawner.com (I listed several on purpose).

If it is from your server, you may want to open a free account at one of those and build a typical site using one of their templates, then use your dotcom provider's "redirect" option.

Remember that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.  Find a site or two that you like and copy their format.  Search using google.com , then search within tripod.com and geocities.com to see school sites.

By the way, I agree with one of the above posters to above flash.  Think about us poor 56k people and how slow we are.
;-)

AoG


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## Shrewsbury (Sep 8, 2006)

All of you are wonderful and I appreciate your time and comments for a complete stranger. Though I am quite busy and it may take a while, I think I will change some things around. your advice is invaluable.

Again thanks!!


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## ArmorOfGod (Sep 13, 2006)

http://www.whitecranefist.co.nr/

Shewsbury, click that above site for a very straight to the point, clean website.  That is the site of one of the members here (not me though) and I like how clean the site looks.  Also, it is easy on us 56k people.

AoG


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## Andrew Green (Sep 13, 2006)

ArmorOfGod said:


> http://www.whitecranefist.co.nr/
> 
> Shewsbury, click that above site for a very straight to the point, clean website.  That is the site of one of the members here (not me though) and I like how clean the site looks.  Also, it is easy on us 56k people.
> 
> AoG




COuple of comments on this one 

The centered text on most of the pages should go, keep things left aligned apart from titles or little blurbs, just makes it easier to read.  

You could probably also do away with the nave section at the bottom, all those links already exist in a much more convienient place.

And on a non-design related not, I have doubts about your "facts".  Good for being honest, but I think that advertising should be geared towards what you are, not what you aren't.  What can you give people?  Don't bother telling them what you can't, at least not in ads, and especially not on the front page of your newsletter.  

Fact:  Most people really don't care about your lineage, or your titles, or the politics of the style, just what you can do for them.


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## funnytiger (Sep 13, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> Fact:  Most people really don't care about your lineage, or your titles, or the politics of the style, just what you can do for them.



Sorry Andrew, I would call that opinion. You may not care, but there are a great deal of people who do. I would wager that more people care what kind of "credentials" you have (ie lineage, titles etc.) then not. Especially someone who is new and doesn't know what to look for other then those things.

The white crane site is nice. It could possibly be condensed a little, but its a good site none-the-less.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 13, 2006)

funnytiger said:


> Sorry Andrew, I would call that opinion. You may not care, but there are a great deal of people who do. I would wager that more people care what kind of "credentials" you have (ie lineage, titles etc.) then not. Especially someone who is new and doesn't know what to look for other then those things.
> 
> The white crane site is nice. It could possibly be condensed a little, but its a good site none-the-less.




Nope, I think more people that have been trained to care will, but for people that have no training, they don't.  And even if they did, why state what you don't have?  Focus on what you do.


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## funnytiger (Sep 13, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> Nope, I think more people that have been trained to care will, but for people that have no training, they don't.  And even if they did, why state what you don't have?  Focus on what you do.



I can't tell you what your experiences have shown you, but I know from personal experience, I've always seen the opposite. 

People who come to our kwoon who have no experience always ask questions about "credentials". They want to know how you can prove that you know what you know. They don't know what they are looking at most of the time. lol

However, in my experience with new students, the ones who have come from MA backgrounds are not as concerned with a "resume" as they are concerned with "show me what you've got".

*shrug*

Again, what you stated was an opinion and not a fact. My statements are also opinion and not fact. Purely based on my observations and experiences. 

- ft


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## Carol (Sep 13, 2006)

funnytiger said:


> I can't tell you what your experiences have shown you, but I know from personal experience, I've always seen the opposite.
> 
> People who come to our kwoon who have no experience always ask questions about "credentials". They want to know how you can prove that you know what you know. They don't know what they are looking at most of the time. lol
> 
> ...


 

Personally I think you are both right.

Customers generally make decisions based on what is in it for them.  That's the reason why I bought groceries this morning.   There's something in it for me.  Food, and not just food, the kind of food I like.

Its really not that different for a customer of an MA school.   What's in it for the customer?  If a customer starts shopping with the perception that certain types of ranks or lineages are better for obtaining what the customer wants to get from their training, that perception is going to drive the customer's decision-making process.

The crux of the consultive sale is to understand and manage the customer's expectations.  The most successful salespeople in any industry can repeatedly close and deliver what the customer wants, not what a customer needs, or what the salesperson thinks the customer needs.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 13, 2006)

And regardless, it is just bad advertising to list waht you don't have.  Let them call and ask if they are curious, then you can at least tell them why those things shouldn't be important.  But say what you got, not what you lack.


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## funnytiger (Sep 14, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> And regardless, it is just bad advertising to list waht you don't have.  Let them call and ask if they are curious, then you can at least tell them why those things shouldn't be important.  But say what you got, not what you lack.



Completely agree.


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## funnytiger (Sep 14, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> Personally I think you are both right.
> 
> Customers generally make decisions based on what is in it for them.  That's the reason why I bought groceries this morning.   There's something in it for me.  Food, and not just food, the kind of food I like.
> 
> ...



Probably why I sucked at sales when I worked retail many years ago. LOL
I could never bring myself to convince someone to buy anything that I felt was something they didn't need.
- ft


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Sep 14, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> COuple of comments on this one
> 
> ......Fact: Most people really don't care about your lineage, or your titles, or the politics of the style, just what you can do for them.....


 
Not so, I would never have picked my instructors if I couldn't verify that they were legitimate.

Why would I want to pay someone to teach me when it turns out they appointed themselves 6th Dan Sensei in Aikido and didn't get past 1 Kyu, or the extent of their Tai Chi was from watching David-Dorian Ross DVDs.

You're absolutely wrong on this count.:mst:


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## 7starmantis (Sep 15, 2006)

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> Not so, I would never have picked my instructors if I couldn't verify that they were legitimate.
> 
> Why would I want to pay someone to teach me when it turns out they appointed themselves 6th Dan Sensei in Aikido and didn't get past 1 Kyu, or the extent of their Tai Chi was from watching David-Dorian Ross DVDs.
> 
> You're absolutely wrong on this count.:mst:



Working in the martial arts field I can honestly say you are in the minority then as far as people joining MA schools today.

7sm


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Sep 16, 2006)

7starmantis said:


> Working in the martial arts field I can honestly say you are in the minority then as far as people joining MA schools today.
> 
> 7sm


 
Is that good or bad?


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## Jade Tigress (Sep 17, 2006)

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> Is that good or bad?




That's a good thing.


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## funnytiger (Sep 17, 2006)

7starmantis said:


> Working in the martial arts field I can honestly say you are in the minority then as far as people joining MA schools today.
> 
> 7sm



Can I ask what your involvment with the "martial arts field" is?


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Sep 18, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:


> That's a good thing.


 
          :ultracool


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