# Systema a discussion



## Gweilo

Systema, is not well received in the MA world, that's fine with me, but I thought I would start a discussion about it, first of all I am a practioner,  not an instructor, I have attained 3rd Dan in two other arts, and have no commercial gain by talking about Systema.
So what is Systema, it is a MA that focuses on mental and physical health,welbeing and self defence. Is it a style, some say yes, but for me it is a process, a process that teaches the practioner how to move naturally,  freely, and to counter attack even when you are smaller, weaker and or injured.
It is based on 4 pillars, Breathing, relaxation, posture and movement. We can discuss each element later, but in essence, if you use your breath correctly, keep calm and relaxed, with good posture, you can counter fluidly, quickly, powerfully and naturally,  no magic, just countering from a natural to you but some times Un natural directions or dimensions than other arts, 2nd we strike in a different way, relaxed, with speed, and can hit at different depths, I.e skin deep, muscle deep, organ deep, and because being relaxed multiple strikes are shorter and quicker, we move efficiently, effectively, and all training revolves around distance and timing. 
I am not claiming Systema is better than any other MA, but it is a system that is adaptable, you can attach elements from your previous arts, and also like most MA, the fitter you become the beter your skill, the better your skill the fitter you are.I welcome comments and criticism,  hut not interested in a slag fest. I will post some more information later, but it is time to train.


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## Gweilo

Here's how Vladimir Vasiliev, one of the top 2 Systema instructor says about the art.
Throughout the history of this huge country, Russia had to repel invaders from the north, south, east, and west. All attackers brought their distinct styles of combat and weaponry. The battles took place on different terrain, during freezing winters and sweltering summer heat alike, with the Russians often greatly outnumbered by the enemy forces. As a result of these factors, the Russian warriors acquired a style that combined strong spirit with extremely innovative and versatile tactics that were at the same time practical, deadly, and effective against any type of enemy under any circumstances. The style was natural and free while having no strict rules, rigid structure or limitations (except for moral ones). All tactics were based on instinctive reactions, individual strengths and characteristics, specifically designed for fast learning.

When the Communists came to power in 1917, they suppressed all national traditions. Those practicing the old style of fighting could be severely punished. At the same time, the authorities quickly realized how viable and devastating the original combat system was and reserved it just for a few Special Operations Units.
In Systema, the synergy of three components creates a TRUE WARRIOR - Combat Skill, Strong Spirit and Healthy Body.

The body has to be free of tension, filled with endurance, flexibility, effortless movement and explosive potential.
The spirit or psychological state has to be calm, free of anger, irritation, fear, self-pity, delusion and pride.
The combat skill includes movements that are powerful and precise, instant and economical, spontaneous, subtle and diverse, the signature of a true professional.

There is a reason why Russian Martial Art is called SYSTEMA. It is a complete set of concepts and training components that enhance one’s life. In this case, acquiring the martial art skill is a way to improve the function of all seven physiological systems of the body and all three levels of human abilities the physical, the psychological and the spiritual.

The key principle of the Russian Systema is non-destruction. The goal is to make sure that your training and your attitudes do no damage to the body or the psyche of you or your partners. Systema is designed to create, build and strengthen your body, your psyche, your family and your country.

Systema has another name “poznai sebia” or “Know Yourself”. What does it really mean to Understand Yourself? It is not just to know what your strengths and weaknesses are, that is good but fairly superficial. Training in Russian Martial Art is one of the sure ways to see the full extent of our limitations - to see how proud and weak we really are. Systema allows us to gain the true strength of spirit that comes from humility and clarity in seeing the purpose of our life.


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## ShortBridge

I wasn't aware that systema wasn't well received. I like what I've seen of it.


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> Here's how Vladimir Vasiliev, one of the top 2 Systema instructor says about the art.
> Throughout the history of this huge country, Russia had to repel invaders from the north, south, east, and west. All attackers brought their distinct styles of combat and weaponry. The battles took place on different terrain, during freezing winters and sweltering summer heat alike, with the Russians often greatly outnumbered by the enemy forces. As a result of these factors, the Russian warriors acquired a style that combined strong spirit with extremely innovative and versatile tactics that were at the same time practical, deadly, and effective against any type of enemy under any circumstances. The style was natural and free while having no strict rules, rigid structure or limitations (except for moral ones). All tactics were based on instinctive reactions, individual strengths and characteristics, specifically designed for fast learning.
> 
> When the Communists came to power in 1917, they suppressed all national traditions. Those practicing the old style of fighting could be severely punished. At the same time, the authorities quickly realized how viable and devastating the original combat system was and reserved it just for a few Special Operations Units.
> In Systema, the synergy of three components creates a TRUE WARRIOR - Combat Skill, Strong Spirit and Healthy Body.
> 
> The body has to be free of tension, filled with endurance, flexibility, effortless movement and explosive potential.
> The spirit or psychological state has to be calm, free of anger, irritation, fear, self-pity, delusion and pride.
> The combat skill includes movements that are powerful and precise, instant and economical, spontaneous, subtle and diverse, the signature of a true professional.
> 
> There is a reason why Russian Martial Art is called SYSTEMA. It is a complete set of concepts and training components that enhance one’s life. In this case, acquiring the martial art skill is a way to improve the function of all seven physiological systems of the body and all three levels of human abilities the physical, the psychological and the spiritual.
> 
> The key principle of the Russian Systema is non-destruction. The goal is to make sure that your training and your attitudes do no damage to the body or the psyche of you or your partners. Systema is designed to create, build and strengthen your body, your psyche, your family and your country.
> 
> Systema has another name “poznai sebia” or “Know Yourself”. What does it really mean to Understand Yourself? It is not just to know what your strengths and weaknesses are, that is good but fairly superficial. Training in Russian Martial Art is one of the sure ways to see the full extent of our limitations - to see how proud and weak we really are. Systema allows us to gain the true strength of spirit that comes from humility and clarity in seeing the purpose of our life.


hmm, that a some what biased vertion if Russian history, they have spent much of their long history invading small states, that they vastly out numbeed, when they actually did get invaded, the French and the Germans, it was the cold that beat them, not systema, 

if he can't get his own history right, I'm not sure how much credance, to give to the rest ?


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> hmm, that a some what biased vertion if Russian history, they have spent much of their long history invading small states, that they vastly out numbeed, when they actually did get invaded, the French and the Germans, it was the cold that beat them, not systema,
> 
> if he can't get his own history right, I'm not sure how much credance, to give to the rest ?





jobo said:


> hmm, that a some what biased vertion if Russian history, they have spent much of their long history invading small states, that they vastly out numbeed, when they actually did get invaded, the French and the Germans, it was the cold that beat them, not systema,
> 
> if he can't get his own history right, I'm not sure how much credance, to give to the rest ?



I think you will find the time line is a shortened version from the 10th century to modern times


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> I think you will find the time line is a shortened version from the 10th century to modern times


ok how many times hav they been invaded by superior forces sincere the 10th century, I count one, and they lost heavily, but then every one lost to the Mongols,how many have you got ? and how many of those involved fighting cavilary with big swords with systema


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## ShortBridge

Gweilo said:


> I think you will find the time line is a shortened version from the 10th century to modern times



Sorry....what?


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> ok how many times hav they been invaded by superior forces sincere the 10th century, I count one, and they lost heavily, but then every one lost to the Mongols,how many have you got ? and how many of those involved fighting cavilary with big swords with systema



The germans.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> The germans.


covered the Germans and I he French,   both beaten by the cold and not systema


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## _Simon_

@Gweilo, Systema sounds utterly fascinating, love hearing about it, especially its philosophy and natural relaxed way, am gonna look into it. Thanks for sharing


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## Buka

Systema interests me. I have no formal training in it, but have studying it online over the years and discussed it with those that do train it. I'd like to hook up with some Systema guys someday. I think that would be fun.


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> covered the Germans and I he French,   both beaten by the cold and not systema


Do you actually read the posts properly? You think the vikings only invaded Europe ? Again the Germanic tribes already mentioned, Sarmations, Scythians, Pechenegs and Drevlinians, Mongols and Volga Bolgars?


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> covered the Germans and I he French,   both beaten by the cold and not systema


And not defeated by Systema, but was part of the history which makes up RMA.


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## Gweilo

Breathing,  most people when they hear about Systema breathing,  their reaction is to compare it with other arts, there are similarities as in all aspects of MA.
Systemas approach is as follows, you can go without food for approx 3 weeks, water approx 3 days, oxygen approx 3 mins, when you are born the first thing you do is inhale, when you die the last thing you do is exhale, yet when starting on a healthy life style, nutrition and hydration there is lots of freely available education, 5 a day, drink 3 litres of water, but breathing, it is usually in through the nose and out through the mouth and that is usually it. In MA you get more, but in Systema it is a fundamental principle (just to be clear, I make no claims of Systema being a better MA, just different). To break it down, we use breath techniques for several reasons, circulating oxygen etc, cooling the sinus, but also for stamina, recovery, and to remain relaxed and calm, for stamina we learn how to change our breath pattern in accordance to the extent of effort we use, we can make an inhale exhale last 2 seconds, or a whole minute, and we only take in the amount we need (I will explain more later), the result being we maintain optimal oxygen intake at any level of movement, including a recovery breath (burst breathing) where we link the breath to our heart beat, then after 10 seconds take a controlled exhale, again I will explain more later.
In most MA practioner are taught to strike on the exhale, in Systema, we strike, on the inhale, on a full hold, on the exhale, and on the empty hold, so we can counter at any stage of our breath, again not making any claims or knocking other systems, but only striking on an exhale, in poker they would call that a tell, a tell that becomes more obvious the longer the encounter goes on.
Breathing to be relaxed in combat, when I say relaxed, I mean no tension, I am sure some of you remember when someone made you jump by scaring you, or a near miss, that Sharpe intake of breath, that heavy stuck feeling in the arms and shoulders, or legs followed by a surge of adrenaline, n that tightness in the neck as you are about to fight. We work towards eliminating these types of tension, and it is a well known fact, being relaxed we move with less effort and faster, breathwork is one of our 4 pillars, and i will explain the training in more detail later.


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## CB Jones

Gweilo said:


> You think the vikings only invaded Europe



They did not repel the Vikings.  The vikings ruled and founded much of Russia.

The name Russia comes from the Rus People (also known as the Varangians)...who were Vikings that ruled Russia in the 9th-11th centuries.


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## Gweilo

Relax is the 2nd basic principle and goes hand in hand with breathing,  as said in the last post being relaxed does not mean soggy, it means no tension, relaxed but ready, ready to avoid blend, redirect, strike, i cover more later.
Posture is the 3rd pillar, and goes again hand in hand with breathwork and being relaxed, being tense in the shoulders will hinder free movement, and without good posture there will be poor balance, poor balance equals poor technique. With the correct breathing, we can be relaxed, have no tension (tension aids fatigue), with these 3 pillars in place helps us with the 4th pillar movement, in Systema there are no katas or set movements, we move freely (again not making any claims about better), naturally and quickly, utilising our relaxed state to counter with a single strike when our opponents are at a v unable part of a technique, or multiple strikes from unexpected directions and dimensions, wit good distance and timing work.
This is a quick training video to explain the processes briefly explained.
Matt Hill


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## Gweilo

Hopefully this clip may help


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## Headhunter

There's a systema place just opened in my area and I'm interested but all they seem to talk about is their breathing stuff...what's their actual self defence techniques like


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## Headhunter

One thing I don't agree with is the whole being relaxed when you strike thing. The theories good and fine for training but if I'm attacked late at night I am not going to be relaxed at all


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## wab25

Headhunter said:


> what's their actual self defence techniques like


Post #16 contains a link to video, showing some of their techniques that involve touching their opponent. Those seen in the video are similar to what I have seen from people I know, who study the art. Searching youtube will provide more examples of their techniques that touch the opponent and those that don't.


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## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> One thing I don't agree with is the whole being relaxed when you strike thing. The theories good and fine for training but if I'm attacked late at night I am not going to be relaxed at all



The 2 questions you have are linked, what happens to your body when you get scared, or when your body gets tired, as you breath harder, your chest stomach and shoulders move more, your body will fill with tension, once tension is within the body, your mind and muscles have to work harder to compensate, which brings more fatigue, more doubts which = more tension.
Systema breathing is a process where you teach yourself to combat this by using breath techniques through training and every day life, we learn to take the right amount of oxygen for the work we do, and also techniques for recovery, the better you breath the you can keep the tension at bay, the freer and more natural you move, to give a simplified example, watch a dad play fight with his son, dad is relaxed, no matter how hard the child tries dad has it covered, dad is confident in his movement, that process of being relaxed, confident, moving freely, is what we are aiming for in our work, our striking is done differently,  it is similar to the Wing Chun relaxed punching with a difference, heavy and at different depths.
Our techniques will be familiar to other MA, we do not use blocks like you see in arts like Karate etc, but with our natural movement we avoid, blend, deflect, we have ground techniques, on guard, half guard, escape, and on the floor is the only time we may use tension, in a choke, blood hold, or other form of submit ion. We use takedowns that can be locks, structure manipulation, we seldom use sweeps as we prefer to counter attack when the body is most vulnerable, for example a front kick, we will avoid, deflect, and strike the lead leg just before it lands, our techniques are counter attack and are done with free natural fluid movement, that is in directly linked to our breathing.


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## marques

Headhunter said:


> There's a systema place just opened in my area and I'm interested but all they seem to talk about is their breathing stuff...what's their actual self defence techniques like


You can find a variety of interpretations, organisations and skill level. Almost anything could be called Systema, by definition... Have a look there. Not much to loose (2 hrs of your time?). Then tell us your experience


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## Gweilo

Systema breath work is a core basic or the art, as mentioned before our breath work is used for stamina, and recovery, and to remove tension from the body.
We have several breath patterns that are linked with our movements, this is designed to expand our breath capacity, and increase or breath stamina, but also we use these patterns to put our body under stress in order find and release tension, in order to train ourselves to relax keep calm in a stressful or dangerous situation. 
The first breath pattern is a ladder, in its basic form we breath in for 1 step, then out for 1 step, breath in for 2 out for 2, and climb as high as we can as long as it is comforcomfortable a good 1st level to get to is 30, but it must be done at your regular walking pace, then you can move it along to jogging, or other excercise's. On from this we go to triangle breath which is 1 in breath one full hold 1 exhale, again up to 30. We then introduce a square breath which is 1 inhale, 1 full hold, 1 exhale, 1 empty hold, we can do these breath patterns in class or our everyday life, which is encouraged, for example whilst walking to work or he dog. 
As mentioned we do this with our basic 4 excercise's, , the push up, the squat, the leg raise, and the sit up, so we start with breathing in for the whole of the push up out for the squat etc, this then moves on to eventually,  doing 1 of all 4 on an in breath, so 1 in breath covers all 4 excercise's,  followed by 1 of all 4 on an exhale, and the exhale must last for all 4, we are aiming to do this calmly, relaxed, with out the uncomfortable need to breath, and without tension, not easy give it ago, if you are not sure about the last set of excercise's follow the FB link for a video of it being demonstrated. 
Matt Hill


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## dunc

Hi

Chipping in with my tuppence worth

I trained systema for a year or two when it first came to light in the UK. Several of my friends really got into it, visited Vladimir and Michael regularly etc etc
I really liked systema's focus on developing natural, relaxed and responsive movement - nothing unique about this, but they did seem to be able to use this concept to deliver strikes (in particular) from unusual angles and positions
I also liked how contemporary it was: You trained in street clothes, they use modern weapons etc - this is somewhat unique I think

I didn't continue my training for a few reasons:
- They seem to suffer greatly from the "walled garden effect". Where the techniques overly rely on your opponent responding in a systema way
- It was very free form, but without the hard sparring necessary to test new movements. I found that things that had worked wonderfully in the systema class were useless when I tried them on practitioners from other styles
- I didn't feel that their distancing or control was safe enough to deal with the reality of bladed attacks
- At that time there was a lot of mystical jedi like stuff being peddled, which may have its place, but only as a tool to control susceptible people

Probably it's moved on a lot since then so my view is likely somewhat out of date. I have a very good friend, who I respect enormously as a martial artist, who's trained systema in a more pressure tested way and seems to be making it work well

Best

D


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## Gweilo

Hello Dunc,  many thanks for your response, it is a typical comment I hear, the problem with some Systema instructors is they tend to use the same class schedule or syllabus over and over, this tends to bring a rythem into training and in practioners,  which does make their response predictable, which is why some people believe it is highly coreographed.
Systema is all about freedom to move, to react, the instructors need to mix the lesson up, I spoke to a person who trains at another club, who was suprised that in our class we change the syllabus monthly, this month is multiple strikes and multiple attackers, next month may be knife defense, or groundwork, but according to him, their lessons are pretty much the same month on month, so it becomes a routine, rather than freedom, and of course, it takes 3 to 5 years to master the very basics.


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## Headhunter

dunc said:


> Hi
> 
> Chipping in with my tuppence worth
> 
> I trained systema for a year or two when it first came to light in the UK. Several of my friends really got into it, visited Vladimir and Michael regularly etc etc
> I really liked systema's focus on developing natural, relaxed and responsive movement - nothing unique about this, but they did seem to be able to use this concept to deliver strikes (in particular) from unusual angles and positions
> I also liked how contemporary it was: You trained in street clothes, they use modern weapons etc - this is somewhat unique I think
> 
> I didn't continue my training for a few reasons:
> - They seem to suffer greatly from the "walled garden effect". Where the techniques overly rely on your opponent responding in a systema way
> - It was very free form, but without the hard sparring necessary to test new movements. I found that things that had worked wonderfully in the systema class were useless when I tried them on practitioners from other styles
> - I didn't feel that their distancing or control was safe enough to deal with the reality of bladed attacks
> - At that time there was a lot of mystical jedi like stuff being peddled, which may have its place, but only as a tool to control susceptible people
> 
> Probably it's moved on a lot since then so my view is likely somewhat out of date. I have a very good friend, who I respect enormously as a martial artist, who's trained systema in a more pressure tested way and seems to be making it work well
> 
> Best
> 
> D


Your criticism of systema matches a lot of my thoughts after watching some videos. My main thing is it has the same issue as aikido with a lot of over compliment partners who throw themselves to the floor when they're barely touched. Also the fact that pretty much every description of systema focuses on their breathing not their actual fighting system. 

I mean hey I might be wrong I'm happy to hold my hands up and say I'm wrong if I find out otherwise. I'm planning to visit the local school and see. I may love systema even despite the faults.. Because to me martial arts stopped being about self defence a long time ago...I'm a fairly strong guy with years of training and experience as a doorman. I know I can handle myself if I need to.


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## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Hello Dunc,  many thanks for your response, it is a typical comment I hear, the problem with some Systema instructors is they tend to use the same class schedule or syllabus over and over, this tends to bring a rythem into training and in practioners,  which does make their response predictable, which is why some people believe it is highly coreographed.
> Systema is all about freedom to move, to react, the instructors need to mix the lesson up, I spoke to a person who trains at another club, who was suprised that in our class we change the syllabus monthly, this month is multiple strikes and multiple attackers, next month may be knife defense, or groundwork, but according to him, their lessons are pretty much the same month on month, so it becomes a routine, rather than freedom, and of course, it takes 3 to 5 years to master the very basics.


You see that's my problem....3-5 to even get the basics....that's not much use for self defence is it. I mean hey it's fine for learning an art but say I'm mr average guy who gets beat up in a nightclub and I want to learn self defence and I go to systema class...that means I'll have to prey like hell that I don't get attacked for 5 years of my training.


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## dunc

I understand that systema clubs operate in very different ways and presumably achieve very different results in terms of effectiveness and that's fairly normal I think

You can see a fair bit of the "walled garden effect", distancing etc in this clip


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## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Your criticism of systema matches a lot of my thoughts after watching some videos. My main thing is it has the same issue as aikido with a lot of over compliment partners who throw themselves to the floor when they're barely touched. Also the fact that pretty much every description of systema focuses on their breathing not their actual fighting system.
> 
> I mean hey I might be wrong I'm happy to hold my hands up and say I'm wrong if I find out otherwise. I'm planning to visit the local school and see. I may love systema even despite the faults.. Because to me martial arts stopped being about self defence a long time ago...I'm a fairly strong guy with years of training and experience as a doorman. I know I can handle myself if I need to.


Then go to a academy where they give you a black belt in 4 weeks, and see how that works in a night club


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## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Then go to a academy where they give you a black belt in 4 weeks, and see how that works in a night club


Where did I say that would be any better?


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## Gweilo

dunc said:


> I understand that systema clubs operate in very different ways and presumably achieve very different results in terms of effectiveness and that's fairly normal I think
> 
> You can see a fair bit of the "walled garden effect", distancing etc in this clip


I agree and have said several times Systema does not translate well in video, this video was part of a training seminar, so would be done to accommodate that, but yes I get the walled garden comment


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## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Where did I say that would be any better?


.Hapkido which I also trained in, was 3 years minimum per Dan, to stop the loss in quality of the techniques. The same is true of a lot of arts, not just Systema,


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## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> .Hapkido which I also trained in, was 3 years minimum per Dan, to stop the loss in quality of the techniques. The same is true of a lot of arts, not just Systema,


Again....never said it wasn't


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## Gweilo

So how long do you think, after joining a MA do you think you should be proficient at self defence, because in a night club, there ain't no better technique than a good old smack in the face, or guts.


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## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> So how long do you think, after joining a MA do you think you should be proficient at self defence, because in a night club, there ain't no better technique than a good old smack in the face, or guts.


Think about it like this. Does it take a boxer 5 years to be able to understand how to throw a decent punch


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## Dirty Dog

Gweilo said:


> So how long do you think, after joining a MA do you think you should be proficient at self defence, because in a night club, there ain't no better technique than a good old smack in the face, or guts.



Depends on how you define "proficient" obviously. I can teach you to deliver a good punch in a short time. Is that enough to win a fight? Maybe. Maybe not.


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## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Think about it like this. Does it take a boxer 5 years to be able to understand how to throw a decent punch



No, but he will go through the amateur ranks learning his craft before he turns professional, learning to throw a few punches or kicks can be seen as self defense, but that is all you have until you become more skilled.


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> So how long do you think, after joining a MA do you think you should be proficient at self defence, because in a night club, there ain't no better technique than a good old smack in the face, or guts.


well that very much depends on the abilities of the student, someone who has good athletic ability and learns quickly, should have more than enough in the white belt class to make him able to fight drunks in a night club, for others , never,


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## dunc

Gweilo said:


> I agree and have said several times Systema does not translate well in video, this video was part of a training seminar, so would be done to accommodate that, but yes I get the walled garden comment



To be honest it was pretty much the first one on youtube
Any chance you could point me to a better reference video?

Thanks


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## wab25

Gweilo said:


> I agree and have said several times Systema does not translate well in video, this video was part of a training seminar, so would be done to accommodate that, but yes I get the walled garden comment


I agree, Systema does not translate well in video.


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## Gweilo

wab25 said:


> I agree, Systema does not translate well in video.



99% of that video was crap, and not systema


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## Kung Fu Wang

Gweilo said:


> it takes 3 to 5 years to master the very basics.


In 6 months, if someone can learn

- wrestling single leg and uses it to take down most people,
- boxing jab, cross combo and uses it to knock down most people,

his 6 months wrestling training or boxing training will be better than the 3 to 5 years Systema training.

You first set up your goal (be able to fight in 6 months). You then find a path to reach it. the Systema will not be the right path for you.


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## Gweilo

dunc said:


> To be honest it was pretty much the first one on youtube
> Any chance you could point me to a better reference video?
> 
> Thanks


You could try a search on the zettler twins, matt hill, or vladimir vasiliev or ryo onishi


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## wab25

Gweilo said:


> 99% of that video was crap, and not systema





Gweilo said:


> You could try a search on the zettler twins, matt hill, or *vladimir vasiliev* or ryo onishi


Vladimir Vasiliev was in that video quite a bit, as was Mikhail Ryabko... these guys are decent Systema guys right?


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## Gweilo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In 6 months, if someone can learn
> 
> - wrestling single leg and uses it to take down most people,
> - boxing jab, cross combo and uses it to knock down most people,
> 
> his 6 months wrestling training or boxing training will be better than the 3 to 5 years Systema training.
> 
> You first set up your goal (be able to fight in 6 months). You then find a path to reach it. the Systema will not be the right path for you.


I agree, but would it not depend on the response of the individual?
What is the point of learning jab hook cross, or a leg take down, if you freeze, or your mind falls to pieces at the very point it needs to be calm, how good is the jab hook cross, when 120kg man is bearing down on you, and it's your 1st or 2nd fight with no sparring experience. 6 months training is nothing


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## Gweilo

wab25 said:


> Vladimir Vasiliev was in that video quite a bit, as was Mikhail Ryabko... these guys are decent Systema guys right?



I just watched the video again, Ryabko is in the video, vladamir is not, there is a bloke that could be mistaken for a younger vlad, but he moves nothing like him.


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## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> Think about it like this. Does it take a boxer 5 years to be able to understand how to throw a decent punch


This is what I came to in forming my curriculum. I focus early-on in just a few areas, to build some ability quickly. It's narrow, but provides some tools (takedown defense, simple ground work, punching and knees). Then they get into the full curriculum, which builds on that foundation to give them a wider range of responses to a wider range of situations.

But it all starts with defending against and delivering a decent punch.


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## Gerry Seymour

Gweilo said:


> 6 months training is nothing


We all had 6 months of training at some point. It's not nothing. The question is, "Can it be more than we have made it in the past?"


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## Gweilo

gpseymour said:


> We all had 6 months of training at some point. It's not nothing. The question is, "Can it be more than we have made it in the past?"


I will conceded 6 months is not nothing, but quality, and mind set are not formed over 6 months, most of us know the really hard work most MA practioners put in, and must understand there are no short cuts.


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> I agree, but would it not depend on the response of the individual?
> What is the point of learning jab hook cross, or a leg take down, if you freeze, or your mind falls to pieces at the very point it needs to be calm, how good is the jab hook cross, when 120kg man is bearing down on you, and it's your 1st or 2nd fight with no sparring experience. 6 months training is nothing


If your doing boxing then you'll almost certainly have sparred in 6 months. If your a wrestler you'll have had a live wrestling practice. From what I've seen there's not any sparring in systema even the instructor in my area said there's no sparring in it and he's a student of this vladimir guy


----------



## jobo

this guy is definitely working up to blowing up a fuel depot


----------



## wab25

Gweilo said:


> I just watched the video again, Ryabko is in the video, vladamir is not, there is a bloke that could be mistaken for a younger vlad, but he moves nothing like him.


It did look like Vladamir... and the description credited Vladamir...

Anyway here are some looks at your suggestions, to save people time.
Vladimir Vasiliev





Ryo Onishi





Brian Zettler




(if you see him miss the atomic butt bounce in the beginning, keep watching, he does connect the atomic butt bounce at the end... 3:30)


----------



## Headhunter

gpseymour said:


> We all had 6 months of training at some point. It's not nothing. The question is, "Can it be more than we have made it in the past?"


6 months is plenty of time under good instruction. Sure you won't be an expert but you'll know the basics. You'll be fitter and stronger and more co-ordinated and should've had a bit of sparring by then so should have a basic idea of how to block and strike resisting opponents (assuming it's a striking style your training)


----------



## drop bear

Headhunter said:


> You see that's my problem....3-5 to even get the basics....that's not much use for self defence is it. I mean hey it's fine for learning an art but say I'm mr average guy who gets beat up in a nightclub and I want to learn self defence and I go to systema class...that means I'll have to prey like hell that I don't get attacked for 5 years of my training.



3 to five years to master the basics. How long does it take to be a successful pro boxer?


----------



## Headhunter

drop bear said:


> 3 to five years to master the basics. How long does it take to be a successful pro boxer?


Depends on the boxer


----------



## dunc

wab25 said:


> It did look like Vladamir... and the description credited Vladamir...
> 
> Anyway here are some looks at your suggestions, to save people time.
> Vladimir Vasiliev
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryo Onishi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brian Zettler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (if you see him miss the atomic butt bounce in the beginning, keep watching, he does connect the atomic butt bounce at the end... 3:30)



Yeah unfortunately that pretty much encapsulates what I was talking about


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gweilo said:


> I will conceded 6 months is not nothing, but quality, and mind set are not formed over 6 months, most of us know the really hard work most MA practioners put in, and must understand there are no short cuts.


No, there are no shortcuts, but we don't have to leave all competence for the long path.


----------



## drop bear

Headhunter said:


> Depends on the boxer



On average.

how long to become a pro boxer? - RossTraining.com


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> On average.
> 
> how long to become a pro boxer? - RossTraining.com


And that’s more consistent and condensed training than most MAists put in.


----------



## Gweilo

jobo said:


> this guy is definitely working up to blowing up a fuel depot



Pmsl never seen that video before, he does look like he is going to blow up a fuel depot, we don't use guns where I train


----------



## dunc

wab25 said:


> It did look like Vladamir... and the description credited Vladamir...
> 
> Anyway here are some looks at your suggestions, to save people time.
> Vladimir Vasiliev
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryo Onishi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brian Zettler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (if you see him miss the atomic butt bounce in the beginning, keep watching, he does connect the atomic butt bounce at the end... 3:30)



Hi

So I just watched all the clips and sharing my views on them

1. Vlad 
I think he’s a talented martial artist and some of the principles illustrates (eg redirecting strikes into disruptive directions) are totally valid and quite interesting
However, for me this clip falls into the Jedi mind trick category and it’s bonkers to believe that waiving your arm around will cause someone to fall over
It’s also really, really easy to test. Just try it with anyone not training in Systema. Or even see if you can manipulate someone without contact outside of the martial arts context

2. Ryo
The first 30 seconds was more on the practical end of the scale, but his attacker was over responding to the manipulations
I liked the principle he was showing to make a sudden movement just as the attacker commits in order to disrupt their “game plan”
However, I really hope no one here genuinely believes that you can deal with an assault by rooting your feet 6inches apart and either bending your knees or waiving your arms around to make your attacker fall over or utterly give up on their attack

3. Brian
Some of the principles shown to receive strikes & redirect your opponent into a strike of your own are great
I also like the way that the participants receive strikes, albeit they are grossly over compensating
However, this is a good example of participants moving in different speeds during slow training. The attacker is slowly approaching with an outstretched arm and the defender moves much quicker when delivering strikes
The defender is overreacting to fairly light strikes and unnecessarily  compromising their structure at each stage. This allows the faster moving defender to deliver a sequence of pretty ineffective strikes that result in the attacker tying themselves up 
It’s a very different dynamic when both people move in the same time zone and you need to generate a material amount of power to force your opponent to compromise their structure

I feel that many of the principles in Systema are valid and the style has some interesting and useful characteristics, but the most commonly used training method seems to direct people in an increasingly self deluded direction

I feel that this is a problem in all martial arts to some extent. There is a spectrum and I’m sure that there are people in styles on the far end of this spectrum who have found ways to counter this natural dynamic in martial arts


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gweilo said:


> Pmsl


Pmsl?


----------



## Gweilo

gpseymour said:


> Pmsl?


Peed myself laughing


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> Pmsl?


Pmsl means ,,I laughed so much I lost control of my bladder, your not down with the kids are you


----------



## Gweilo

dunc said:


> but his attacker was over responding to the manipulations



Unfortunately this is common in Systema videos, and it does the art no favours, neither does the BS non touching stuff, but thank you for your response.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> Pmsl means ,,I laughed so much I lost control of my bladder, your not down with the kids are you


Bah, these whippersnappers and their texting and interwebs!


----------



## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> Unfortunately this is common in Systema videos, and it does the art no favours, neither does the BS non touching stuff, but thank you for your response.



Yeah. You need to jump on a punch machine. See if the data adds up.


----------



## Gweilo

This maybe of interest to those wishing to understand a bit about how we strike in systema


----------



## garik




----------



## Headhunter

Funnily enough this vlad guy is doing a seminar in jersey today. Where I'm on holiday right now. Apparently first time out of Russia. They said you could come in and watch with no charge so I poked my head in and watched for a bit...all I can say is it's not making me rush home and sign up for systema


----------



## garik

*Soviet Kompleks Spezialnie Upraschnenie N.1 from the Close Combat Methodology 1981 of the Soviet Army, chapter "Special close combat training".















*


----------



## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Funnily enough this vlad guy is doing a seminar in jersey today. Where I'm on holiday right now. Apparently first time out of Russia. They said you could come in and watch with no charge so I poked my head in and watched for a bit...all I can say is it's not making me rush home and sign up for systema


Vladimir Vasiliev has lived in Toronto Canada for over 20 years, so it won't be him, if it was the 1st time out of Russia.


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Vladimir Vasiliev has lived in Toronto Canada for over 20 years, so it won't be him, if it was the 1st time out of Russia.


Whatever either way it's a vert high ranking guy and yeah wasn't impressed I'm afraid


----------



## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Whatever either way it's a vert high ranking guy and yeah wasn't impressed I'm afraid


The gentleman in The Channel Islands was Victor Tarasov, and at least you had a look, and decided you didn’t like it.


----------



## Gweilo

I have never trained with Mr Tarasov so could not comment on his teaching methods, I have heard from people who have trained with him, and been told, he likes ground movement, Kossack swords and whips, and his style of Systema is heavily influenced by his Aikido, but these are rumours.


----------



## Headhunter

Found this photo on Facebook from the seminar...not a smart idea what he's doing waving around swords right by a children's park


----------



## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Found this photo on Facebook from the seminar...not a smart idea what he's doing waving around swords right by a children's park
> 
> View attachment 22105


I agree, but from where he is from in Russia it would be acceptable,  it does the art no favours,  I also have been told a class in England was taken outside to train last year in the hot spell we had, and the class was in a local park, the lesson was on knife defense,  and was halted half way through by armed police. The person who told me attended that class. Just pure stupidity,  and again makes the art look bad.


----------



## Arthur

I think somewhere in the last 2 decades Systema has become a term that is in a way as ubiquitous as "Kung Fu". And at this point is probably not productive to judge, interpret, whatever, Systema by any given practitioners performance. Good, great, bad or horrible.  You know? I mean it would be ridiculous if we were making decisions about what Kung Fu is by watching one or two guys performing what they call Kung Fu. Well... my thought anyway.

Arthur


----------



## Gweilo

The Russian martial art of Systema is a relatively new art in Western consciousness. Having been previously classified during the Soviet era, it was only first revealed beyond the country’s borders in 1993. Even then, early promoters needed to work to establish its credibility as even many government and military officials refuted its existence. Today, it is widely established and has grown exponentially beyond its borders but still in the youth of its expansion, it suffers from many misconceptions and misinterpretations.

*10-The art is a hybrid of Asian styles:*
Not true. Systema was formally created following a detailed experimentation and exploration of the Asian arts by the government. Naturally, it does therefore contain influences and responses to Asiatic systems. It’s chief foundation however comes from the synthesis of uniquely Slavic cultural folk systems, including ancient Cossack traditions which trace their origins to the 10th century.

*9- Systema is purely a military art:*
Systema was certainly designed initially for the military and is still employed by Special units within Russia as well as individually practised by professionals around the world, however there is much greater depth than simply hand-to-hand fighting. Many people see the sensational highlights of training in forests and lakes, in camouflage with weaponry and assume there is no place for civilians. In reality, the greatest advantages of Systema comes from its unique teaching approach, its emphasis on breathwork, biomechanical efficiency, relaxation and healthy function. Through this, it provides a total health and personal protection system that is at once simple to learn and sophisticated in its profound depth.

*8-Systema is exclusionary:*
Many myths have been propagated about Systema being less than inviting towards non-Russian or specifically non-Orthodox practitioners. This is simply a feeble attempt at counter-marketing. A quick survey of Systema’s instructors worldwide and the location of its affiliate schools will show that Systema is enjoyed by practitioners around the world, regardless of their cultural origins or religious denominations. While every instructor may bring their own life experiences to bear in training, there is nothing inherent in Systema that requires the adoption of specific religious or cultural beliefs.

*7-Systema is all about no-touch knockouts and chi blasts:*
All Systema training addresses the relationship between the psychological and the physical. This includes a very small portion that addresses the role of reflexes and fear responses. Some drills do employ deception and influence quite similar to hypnosis to show students how easily the mind and body can be tricked. Others use stimuli and responses in a playful game of exaggerated movement to help students learn to free their responses from fear. All of these games are simply training devices and can only be helpful within the context of a training environment with partners that one trusts. While these can translate indirectly into strategies for combat, they have little direct translation to combat technique–not unlike fakes in boxing can play a role but cannot be relied upon as a trusted tactic. Sadly, some instructors from other styles have chosen to exaggerate the importance of these drills and to sensationalize them, claiming or implying that they are somehow combat relevant. Adding to this is the unfortunate translation of “psyche” to “psychic”. Ultimately, these drills are of little consequence in the more practical side of things and once experienced can be quickly understood and integrated to their proper role and importance.

*6-Systema advocates body hardening:*
Systema believes that contact should begin early in training, with slow but incremental increases in the amount received. This includes a use of exercises that teach practitioners how to absorb punches, largely to the body. Many viewers wrongly assume that this means Systema advocates some Russian version of Iron Body Chi Kung. Again, nothing could be further from the truth. Punch absorption in Systema is more of a psychological drill than a physical one. It is designed to show students the role that fear plays in responding to pain, particularly through the use of stances and flinch response. Punch absorption reveals to the student their individual responses to fear and pain and teaches them how to safely and effectively deal with them. The end goal is not to make the body “tougher”–in fact, all Systema combat techniques rather yielding to force rather than stopping or absorbing it. Furthermore, by striking the human body rather than an inanimate bag, students learn to adapt to an ever-changing surface. In actual application, students would rarely employ so much punching or target the body so heavily. Strikes to vital areas are emphasizes far more. To some extent, punch absorption has become a parlor trick that is over-valued by some instructors. In reality, strikes to the eyes, throat and groin can never be “absorbed” or conditioned against. These drills simply appear to be more sensational on film and so have been promoted to saturation.

*5-Systema is based on “natural movement” so anything goes:*
In Systema, natural movement does not refer to simply any action we do automatically. Rather natural movement refers to movement that is optimally efficient in its freedom from fear. When a human is relaxed and healthy and balanced, he or she will move to the greatest degree of their inherent capacity–this is what is the ideal every practitioner seeks. Initial reflexes are often tense and stiff and quite the opposite of natural or effective movement and so training seeks to chip away at the inessential tension. As instructor Martin Wheeler has said, Systema is not the art you learn, it’s the art you remember.

*4-Systema has no technique:*
This is not entirely correct. Yes, Systema does advocate principles over pattern, but some degree of technical training is still required. There is a better way to kick, a more efficient way to punch, etc. It would be more correct to say that Systema does not employ choreographed drills or fixed patterns of movement. Students are taught the biomechanical reasons why a specific technique works and then led to their own individual interpretation of that principle.

*3-Systema training is always slow:*
Systema does make a strong use of “slow” training. As the old military expression touts, slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Every training experience in training has the potential to either erode fear or else to add to it. Training quickly, while helpful for testing, does nothing to improve responses in the immediate context. When you train quickly, you reinforce your existant responses. Like learning to walk, swim, ride a bike or drive a car, Systema advocates slow work where practitioners provide unchoreographed stimuli and explore various responses. Contact is introduced first to understand the effect this has on the psyche, distance and timing and speed is added second. While much of Systema training is done at slowly speeds, faster training is certainly essential in the formula.

*2-Systema does not advocate sparring:*
This misconception stems from the previous point about slow training. At faster speeds, all movement becomes closer in type and more familiar. Simply promoting the end result does little to highlight the distinctions in Systema. In the end, there are only so many ways the body can inflict harm. The true greatness in Systema is the manner in which it approaches learning and training. The slow training approach is a huge benefit, but equally important are theoretical education and pressure testing phases. Sparring is definitely essential, against weapons, empty handed attacks and multiple attackers.

*1-All Systema is created equally:*
There are numerous major lineages of Systema now known outside of Russia. The Ryabko Vasiliev lineage from which I hail is renown for a more intuitive approach to training and the heavy use of contact in application. This stems from the detailed and intensive military experiences of our founders. Other lineages are far more scientific and theoretical than practical and still others are promoted by practitioners with little to no actual ability or experience. These realities can be seen easily in their work. In the end, there are as many Systema as there are practitioners. Each student and teacher combines their own unique life experiences with the art, as with any style. The distinction with Systema perhaps is that there is simply more room for this interpretation and application than in many other arts.


----------



## wab25

Arthur said:


> And at this point is probably not productive to judge, interpret, whatever, Systema by any given practitioners performance. Good, great, bad or horrible. You know? I mean it would be ridiculous if we were making decisions about what Kung Fu is by watching one or two guys performing what they call Kung Fu. Well... my thought anyway.


I agree. No one here has been making decisions based on the performance of one or two random guys performing Systema. We have been looking at the highest level instructors and practitioners of the art. This is like looking at Masahiko Kimura, Kyuzo Mifune and Jigoro Kano to gain an opinion of Judo. Or looking at Helio Gracie, Royce Gracie and Rickson Gracie to gain an opinion of BJJ.

As explained above, Ryabko Vasiliev is one of the better lineages, due to the heavy use of contact in application, stemming from intensive military experience. Well, here he is (if you don't have time for the entire 12 minutes, at least skip ahead and see the technique at 8:09...):


----------



## dunc

Oh for goodness sake.....

That clip was a ridiculous example of exploiting a poor suggestible person for entertainment purposes


----------



## Gweilo

O.k, despite the crap videos, a challenge has been set by 2 mma fighters on youtube, fight perfect is the youtube channel, they showed videos of non systema, and unfortunately a high ranking systema teacher performing no touch crap videos, these 2 gentleman are 1 IFC fighter, and a former UFC fighter, they have offered a challenge to Systema practioners to a filmed event to put Systema to the challenge,  the original date was 6th June, it has now been moved to the 16th June.  The following is a copy of the PM from my facebook message.
They reacted.
16th Jun, I am going to see Joe Menghini & Bradley Scott in Melksham.
Myself and one other are going to Melksham in Wiltshire on the said date to prove the Systema principles, it will be filmed regardless of the result, on the said youtube channel, and as soon as I can will post the video on this forum, myself and my friend are going to use Systema fighting principles without the Jedi BS seen in some videos posted on the internet.
We are doing this not for self gratification,  but to prove the basic principles of Systema are valid in the MA world, neither of us that are attending are teachers, but students of Systema, so in theory there is no advertising benefits, we just want to put to bed the legitimacy of the style/art/process.


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> O.k, despite the crap videos, a challenge has been set by 2 mma fighters on youtube, fight perfect is the youtube channel, they showed videos of non systema, and unfortunately a high ranking systema teacher performing no touch crap videos, these 2 gentleman are 1 IFC fighter, and a former UFC fighter, they have offered a challenge to Systema practioners to a filmed event to put Systema to the challenge,  the original date was 6th June, it has now been moved to the 16th June.  The following is a copy of the PM from my facebook message.
> They reacted.
> 16th Jun, I am going to see Joe Menghini & Bradley Scott in Melksham.
> Myself and one other are going to Melksham in Wiltshire on the said date to prove the Systema principles, it will be filmed regardless of the result, on the said youtube channel, and as soon as I can will post the video on this forum, myself and my friend are going to use Systema fighting principles without the Jedi BS seen in some videos posted on the internet.
> We are doing this not for self gratification,  but to prove the basic principles of Systema are valid in the MA world, neither of us that are attending are teachers, but students of Systema, so in theory there is no advertising benefits, we just want to put to bed the legitimacy of the style/art/process.


A systema person fighting an Mma fight against Mma fighters....there's only way that's going to end


----------



## Gweilo

You have your beliefs HH I have mine, the video will tell all, many people think they know about Systema, when they veiw videos, I have clearly stated in the past I follow the Vasiliev/Ryabko system, I do not follow the BS no touch crap, no matter who teaches it, but the basic principles of breath, relax, posture and movement I follow, and believe in, also the hit differently I am a follower of. There is no hiding after the 16th June, as 2 independent entities will publish the video, either way will back up a theory,  I am confident, if I am wrong (which I am Not), then I will publically say, I have 2 3rd Dans, my teacher has a 5th Dan (not in Systema as there is no grading) I have also done Bare knuckle boxing, we are not stupid Uneducated people. But we will see on the 16th June and I look forward to your apology.


----------



## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> You have your beliefs HH I have mine, the video will tell all, many people think they know about Systema, when they veiw videos, I have clearly stated in the past I follow the Vasiliev/Ryabko system, I do not follow the BS no touch crap, no matter who teaches it, but the basic principles of breath, relax, posture and movement I follow, and believe in, also the hit differently I am a follower of. There is no hiding after the 16th June, as 2 independent entities will publish the video, either way will back up a theory,  I am confident, if I am wrong (which I am Not), then I will publically say, I have 2 3rd Dans, my teacher has a 5th Dan (not in Systema as there is no grading) I have also done Bare knuckle boxing, we are not stupid Uneducated people. But we will see on the 16th June and I look forward to your apology.



Do you have any idea who you will be fighting?

Are you matched up by weight?


----------



## Gweilo

To Joe we are similar weight, but watch the videos, he drinks a lot of strong cider nowdays, means weak liver and kidneys,  his left ear is cauliflowered,  but not the right, means he clinches with left to the inside ,he also stretches his left leg in training, probaly an inherent weakness, or covering an injury, was in the UFC for 10 years, yes I know who I am fighting.


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> You have your beliefs HH I have mine, the video will tell all, many people think they know about Systema, when they veiw videos, I have clearly stated in the past I follow the Vasiliev/Ryabko system, I do not follow the BS no touch crap, no matter who teaches it, but the basic principles of breath, relax, posture and movement I follow, and believe in, also the hit differently I am a follower of. There is no hiding after the 16th June, as 2 independent entities will publish the video, either way will back up a theory,  I am confident, if I am wrong (which I am Not), then I will publically say, I have 2 3rd Dans, my teacher has a 5th Dan (not in Systema as there is no grading) I have also done Bare knuckle boxing, we are not stupid Uneducated people. But we will see on the 16th June and I look forward to your apology.


Well you'll be dissapointed then since I won't be appoligising for anything no matter what happens


----------



## zzj

The core principles make it look like Systema is the Russian version of Tai Chi, but it does look very different in practice.


----------



## dunc

Gweilo said:


> O.k, despite the crap videos, a challenge has been set by 2 mma fighters on youtube, fight perfect is the youtube channel, they showed videos of non systema, and unfortunately a high ranking systema teacher performing no touch crap videos, these 2 gentleman are 1 IFC fighter, and a former UFC fighter, they have offered a challenge to Systema practioners to a filmed event to put Systema to the challenge,  the original date was 6th June, it has now been moved to the 16th June.  The following is a copy of the PM from my facebook message.
> They reacted.
> 16th Jun, I am going to see Joe Menghini & Bradley Scott in Melksham.
> Myself and one other are going to Melksham in Wiltshire on the said date to prove the Systema principles, it will be filmed regardless of the result, on the said youtube channel, and as soon as I can will post the video on this forum, myself and my friend are going to use Systema fighting principles without the Jedi BS seen in some videos posted on the internet.
> We are doing this not for self gratification,  but to prove the basic principles of Systema are valid in the MA world, neither of us that are attending are teachers, but students of Systema, so in theory there is no advertising benefits, we just want to put to bed the legitimacy of the style/art/process.



I think this is great!!
Good luck and it'll be really interesting to see the videos

I watched the fight perfect video on systema and concluded that the guys are pretty closed to other approaches / styles and whatever the result I hope these kind of events encourage everyone to be more open in their appreciation of other styles 
My only suggestion is to make sure that the rules / structure of the session isn't skewed towards MMA


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gweilo said:


> You have your beliefs HH I have mine, the video will tell all, many people think they know about Systema, when they veiw videos, I have clearly stated in the past I follow the Vasiliev/Ryabko system, I do not follow the BS no touch crap, no matter who teaches it, but the basic principles of breath, relax, posture and movement I follow, and believe in, also the hit differently I am a follower of. There is no hiding after the 16th June, as 2 independent entities will publish the video, either way will back up a theory,  I am confident, if I am wrong (which I am Not), then I will publically say, I have 2 3rd Dans, my teacher has a 5th Dan (not in Systema as there is no grading) I have also done Bare knuckle boxing, we are not stupid Uneducated people. But we will see on the 16th June and I look forward to your apology.


I think his point was you're going into their territory. This is the very thing they train for. What I teach and train works, but if I go to a BJJ competition, I expect the BJJ folks to be better at that than I am.

At the same time, it's not impossible to make a good showing. Win/lose isn't the determiner here.


----------



## Gweilo

gpseymour said:


> I think his point was you're going into their territory. This is the very thing they train for. What I teach and train works, but if I go to a BJJ competition, I expect the BJJ folks to be better at that than I am.
> 
> At the same time, it's not impossible to make a good showing. Win/lose isn't the determiner here.



I agree with you, what is more important to me, is the fact that Systema can be seen as a legit form of self defense,  without the no touch bs (which I have never been shown, not even in seminars). Many thanks for the posts on encouragement.


----------



## Gweilo

Alas, I received a FB message this morning that said " due to unforeseen circumstances,  we are no longer able to host, or attend the event we had planned with you this weekend Sunday 16th, we apologise for any inconvenience caused".
I have messaged them back asking if they wish to reschedule,  I will keep you informed.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gweilo said:


> Alas, I received a FB message this morning that said " due to unforeseen circumstances,  we are no longer able to host, or attend the event we had planned with you this weekend Sunday 16th, we apologise for any inconvenience caused".
> I have messaged them back asking if they wish to reschedule,  I will keep you informed.


That's disappointing.


----------



## Gweilo

gpseymour said:


> That's disappointing.


Yes it is, but as I do not yet know the reasons why, I am not going to whine, or make silly claims, I will just wait and see how they reply. But I would like it to happen sooner rather than later.


----------



## Buka

Gweilo said:


> Alas, I received a FB message this morning that said " due to unforeseen circumstances,  we are no longer able to host, or attend the event we had planned with you this weekend Sunday 16th, we apologise for any inconvenience caused".
> I have messaged them back asking if they wish to reschedule,  I will keep you informed.



Interesting. But probably better off for all involved.

Just keep training, bro. To hell with the BS challenges. I mean, who the hell challenges anyone concerning styles any more? At least among those with a lick of sense in their head?


----------



## Headhunter

Buka said:


> Interesting. But probably better off for all involved.
> 
> Just keep training, bro. To hell with the BS challenges. I mean, who the hell challenges anyone concerning styles any more? At least among those with a lick of sense in their head?


Yep that's probably why they cancelled they realised its stupid and a waste of time. It's a no win situation for the Mma guys. If they win then so what am MMA guy won a Mma match against a systema guy and if they lose then that fighter and that fighters gyms reputation takes a big hit. So why waste time with it. Also as I said before it's very unlikely an Mma guy would lose an Mma match to a systema guy. That's nothing against systema but simply by fighting Mma your playing your opponents game. Just like how if a jiu jitsu fighter fought a Muay Thai guy at Muay Thai the Muay Thai guy would easily win. 

People just need to train what they want. We can debate forever about street realism or sport vs self defence and rules and all that but at the end of the day who gives a damm just do what you want to do


----------



## drop bear

Buka said:


> Interesting. But probably better off for all involved.
> 
> Just keep training, bro. To hell with the BS challenges. I mean, who the hell challenges anyone concerning styles any more? At least among those with a lick of sense in their head?



Or do any entry level MMA fight.


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Yes it is, but as I do not yet know the reasons why, I am not going to whine, or make silly claims, I will just wait and see how they reply. But I would like it to happen sooner rather than later.


Why though? Why's it so important for you to do some pointless fight? Just keep doing what you're doing with your training and don't worry about proving anything


----------



## Gweilo

In the original video, they invited anyone who trained in Systema, were welcome to go to their gym, to prove that they were wrong about Systema, simple as that, no personal ego trip.


----------



## Gweilo

Or I have congenital analgesia


----------



## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Why though? Why's it so important for you to do some pointless fight? Just keep doing what you're doing with your training and don't worry about proving anything



I responded quickly, then I read my answers, then I thought about your question, in my day I was a bit of a jack the lad, I got into a lot of fights, aggression was how I responded to any situation, I even got banned from Spain for 10 years. Mud sticks and trouble seemed to come my way even if I tried to avoid it, I even tried unliscensed bare knuckle fighting for a while. When I had finally had enough, I left everything behind,  tried to start again, in another part of the country, where nobody knew me, I even took up a new art, perhaps I had one of those faces, after a while trouble still come,  I stopped training for a while, then found Systema, love training it,  perhaps this recent event was me expecting trouble to arise sooner or later, or perhaps at 49, I was wondering do I still have it, not sure yet, but perhaps you are right, maybe I should just enjoy the training, and maybe if I stop expecting trouble, it will stop coming, who knows.


----------



## Gweilo




----------



## Buka

Thinking about the path Dan Inosanto has travelled boggles my mind. Anything he trains has to be the balls.


----------



## Gweilo

I had the plessure of attending a seminar back in the late 90's, what a humble, genuine nice guy, extremely willing to pass on knowledge and experience. Definitely one of my life highlights.


----------



## Gweilo

Many a video posted on YouTube do not do Systema justice, the previous video I posted with Dan Innosanto,  stated you have to train it to undestand it,  but the following video is how I see Systema, but a bit pencakish,  not sure if this instructor Is Filipino inspired as the style is a little bit rigid, but this is how I see my art with a little more freedom.


----------



## dunc

I think you should study carefully how the person receiving the techniques moves

If they are static and not controlled then I’d suggest the techniques are not entirely viable

The clip you posted certainly fits into this category I think


----------



## Gweilo

I agree, the clip is very seminary, with the slow attacker, and fast reactions of the instructor, it was a bit stylised. But with more freedom, and a bit more of body movement in the striking is how I see my art, which is far from a guy running around barrel rolling his arms, or waving your fingers and making someone fall over. It is difficult for someone who does not train in my art to understand the processes,  convenient I hear people say, I understand it will take time to convince some people, and some never will be convinced.


----------



## Martial D

Every art and style has propaganda. Plenty of that in this thread.

I judge a style solely on its propensity to produce competent and effective fighters. 

On that note I hold judgement on many styles, this one included, until such a time as they produce any.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dunc said:


> I think you should study carefully how the person receiving the techniques moves
> 
> If they are static and not controlled then I’d suggest the techniques are not entirely viable
> 
> The clip you posted certainly fits into this category I think


This is a common practice in demonstrations - I see it in BJJ and MMA demonstrations, where I am certain the demonstrator understands this is creating a very artificial situation. When it's used for a single move, I don't have a problem with it. When it's used too much, though, we start to see a longer sequence as the response. I think it was @drop bear who referred to this as a 4-beat response (the defender gets to do 4 things in response to 1 movement by the attacker). That practice has the real risk of inflating our belief in our abilities.


----------



## Gweilo

gpseymour said:


> That practice has the real risk of inflating our belief in our abilities.


Is this not true for all arts? As long as we regularly pressure test , to keep us honest, I am a student of systema, but as long as I am better than I was yesterday, or have learnt something new, about me or my art, or confronted a weakness, then I am moving in the right direction.


----------



## dunc

I’m not sure that I 100% agree

For example good BJJ technique is characterized by the proponent exerting a high degree of control over their opponent. So even when demonstrating in an artificial context it’s clear how the technical advantage is being used

When illustrating standing technique it’s pretty easy to see the timing, reaction baiting etc that provide the equivalent advantage, even if being shown in an abstract context

I hope that makes sense?


----------



## Gweilo

Yes it makes sense, but as stated in other posts, Systema is a process, when we see for example, a student from other arts, when they get to a senior level they are performing in a way that mimics the styles principles via techniques taught to them through years of repetitive training, In Systema (I am not making any claims it is better, just different) those of a senior level look like they are moving by mimicking what's taught, but it is because this is the way the human body moves, when it moves freely and naturally. When jp mentioned the 4 beats comment, we train this way as a form of playing, we are encouraged to look for as many strikes, breaks, structure breaking opportunities as we can, but 1 strike leads us to the next in a free, fluid, efficient manner until the threat is no longer there, or the opportunity to escape arises.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gweilo said:


> Is this not true for all arts? As long as we regularly pressure test , to keep us honest, I am a student of systema, but as long as I am better than I was yesterday, or have learnt something new, about me or my art, or confronted a weakness, then I am moving in the right direction.


Yes, it absolutely is true of all arts (that's part of the point I was getting at). We just have to be more cautious when we use that to demonstrate a multi-beat movement. Doesn't mean we should never do that - I haven't found a better way to demonstrate most sequences when talking than to use a reasonably passive partner to allow me to move freely through the sequence I want to illustrate. So yeah, we have to make sure we're adding some pressure testing to keep us honest.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dunc said:


> I’m not sure that I 100% agree
> 
> For example good BJJ technique is characterized by the proponent exerting a high degree of control over their opponent. So even when demonstrating in an artificial context it’s clear how the technical advantage is being used
> 
> When illustrating standing technique it’s pretty easy to see the timing, reaction baiting etc that provide the equivalent advantage, even if being shown in an abstract context
> 
> I hope that makes sense?


With some sequences, that's absolutely true. Let me toss something out that may illustrate my point. If we were showing how to diffuse a step in (by the opponent) to gain clinch or some other close-in grab for control, and convert that to a single-leg takedown, we'd probably want at some point to demonstrate the whole sequence with some explanation. So, the "opponent" has to start his entry, then become mostly passive (perhaps still moving, if we're demonstrating a sequence that involves him taking a step, for instance). He's going to be letting us make that movement, and there's not much control held as we transition from the counter to the grab and drop in for the single-leg. We can repeat that sequence with some reliability in sparring, so we know it works even if he's not passive, but the demo doesn't really let us see that any better than most passive demos do.


----------



## wab25

Gweilo said:


> In Systema (I am not making any claims it is better, just different) those of a senior level look like they are moving by mimicking what's taught, but it is because this is the way the human body moves, when it moves freely and naturally.


I always find this claim interesting. Systema is not the only art to make such a claim. The reason I find this claim interesting and amusing is that I have yet to find the art that claims to teach you to move you body in unnatural ways and in ways that the human body does not move. Every art I know of teaches you to move the way the human body moves. In fact, they all take advantage of how the human body moves.

I get it though. This is another "we don't do kata cause kata sucks" type thing. But, here are a bunch of drills to do. Move freely, their are no set moves, respond naturally... except in this drill, stand like this, attack like that and put your hand here so that it does this... only relax and do it without thinking. All arts do this same thing... which I find amusing.


----------



## Gweilo

wab25 said:


> Every art I know of teaches you to move the way the human body moves. In fact, they all take advantage of how the human body moves.



Take advantage of human movement I agree, but a stylised, refined, or repetitive muscle memory response, if we limit ourself to refined movement, we loose some ability for a creative counter, or move in a way that is suceptable to another muscle memory response.



wab25 said:


> I get it though. This is another "we don't do kata cause kata sucks" type thing. But, here are a bunch of drills to do.



It has never been explained in that disrespectful way to me, and no claims of this way is better, have also never been claimed, on the contrary,  Kata is essential in other arts, hard work and determination. Of course there are techniques taught in Systema,  breathing techniques, rolling techniques, and striking techniques are all taught, but aspiring to do this in a calm, fluid, efficient way, learn to control ourselves, before we control others. Repetitive teaching or practicing of rehearsed patterns of movement gives your opponent a chance of understanding how you move or intend to move, having no set pattern eliminates the chance of this happening, that is the reason given to me, not in a way that mocks other teaching ways. This is the 3rd art I have trained in, and I do not regret any art I have trained in, but 2 of these arts I was trained into being an exponent of that style, many hours spent trying to perfect a kick that my body was not meant to be performing,  and being told time and time again, no, do it again. We are at a point in martial arts, where we can see the down sides of training in a repetitive patterns, look at some of the old Karate teachers, hips are knackered, no longer able to perform a low kick, I saw a video recently, of Bill superfoot Wallace, amazing kicks in his youth, now walks like he has had an accident in his pants. I enjoy Systema, because I can mould the art to me, and my body, and my age, all I can say is, I move better now, than I have for a long time, is it an effective martial art, I am sure we will find out in the future, I believe it is very effective, but I am biased.


----------



## wab25

Gweilo said:


> Of course there are techniques taught in Systema, breathing techniques, rolling techniques, and striking techniques are all taught, but aspiring to do this in a calm, fluid, efficient way, learn to control ourselves, before we control others.


 You could take out the word Systema and replace it with Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido, Karate, TKD, Hapkido, Kung fu, Boxing, Wrestling... Thats the amusing part... this idea is unique to every single system of martial arts.



Gweilo said:


> Repetitive teaching or practicing of rehearsed patterns of movement gives your opponent a chance of understanding how you move or intend to move, having no set pattern eliminates the chance of this happening


And yet, drills are always taught where one guy does this, and the other guy does that. The techniques shown in your last video (post 105) are demonstrated by people who have done them 1 or 2 times before. In fact, I would bet they have done those techniques thousands of times... in a non repetitive sort of way. In order to gain physical skill, repetition must be done.


----------



## Gweilo

As I stated in the post 105, the video was a bit to stylised in favour of Kali or Silat.
The difference between Systema and the list of arts you stated, tkd,  hapkido etc, the repetitive training, comes in the form of grading material, you must attain a level of uniformity to achieve the grade, everyone has to execute a pre planned repitiore,  as does kata, we have no grading syllabus. 
We do execute drills, but the end goal is to achieve a level of movement, and be creative with it, efficient counters,  and pressure test at the end of each session.


----------



## wab25

Gweilo said:


> We do execute drills, but the end goal is to achieve a level of movement, and be creative with it, efficient counters, and pressure test at the end of each session.


This describes all martial arts. The only difference being who creates the drills. If the founders of the art created the drills, we call them kata... if the instructors create their own drills, we simply call them drills.

If the end goal is to receive a grading, and not to achieve a level of movement... thats on the student. You can do Systema the same way, with a focus on the grading, and miss the whole of the art... just like you can for any other art... and that is always on the student.


----------



## Buka

wab25 said:


> I always find this claim interesting. Systema is not the only art to make such a claim. The reason I find this claim interesting and amusing is that I have yet to find the art that claims to teach you to move you body in unnatural ways and in ways that the human body does not move. Every art I know of teaches you to move the way the human body moves. In fact, they all take advantage of how the human body moves.
> 
> I get it though. This is another "we don't do kata cause kata sucks" type thing. But, here are a bunch of drills to do. Move freely, their are no set moves, respond naturally... except in this drill, stand like this, attack like that and put your hand here so that it does this... only relax and do it without thinking. All arts do this same thing... which I find amusing.



I disagree when it comes to kicking. The front kick is the only motion of the way the human body moves naturally. I think it's a stretch to fit most other kinds of kicks into what would be considered natural movement. For the most part, anyway.


----------



## Martial D

Buka said:


> I disagree when it comes to kicking. The front kick is the only motion of the way the human body moves naturally. I think it's a stretch to fit most other kinds of kicks into what would be considered natural movement. For the most part, anyway.



The round kick with the instep can definitely also be found in the untrained wild. Maybe not with good form, but neither is the wild variant of the straight kick


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gweilo said:


> As I stated in the post 105, the video was a bit to stylised in favour of Kali or Silat.
> The difference between Systema and the list of arts you stated, tkd,  hapkido etc, the repetitive training, comes in the form of grading material, you must attain a level of uniformity to achieve the grade, everyone has to execute a pre planned repitiore,  as does kata, we have no grading syllabus.
> We do execute drills, but the end goal is to achieve a level of movement, and be creative with it, efficient counters,  and pressure test at the end of each session.


I would actually argue that while this is commonly true in those arts, it's not necessary to the art. It's part of the curriculum of a given organization, but doesn't actually define the art. The review of the pre-planned repertoire is just a manner of evaluation they choose to use.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I disagree when it comes to kicking. The front kick is the only motion of the way the human body moves naturally. I think it's a stretch to fit most other kinds of kicks into what would be considered natural movement. For the most part, anyway.


I'd argue the instep kick is more natural for most folks than the front kick....unless we use different names for those kicks, which is entirely possible. And the round kick's basic concept is pretty natural, if you stay away from the more technical bits. Side kick certainly isn't natural, nor most snap kicks, hook kicks, axe kicks.


----------



## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> Many a video posted on YouTube do not do Systema justice, the previous video I posted with Dan Innosanto,  stated you have to train it to undestand it,  but the following video is how I see Systema, but a bit pencakish,  not sure if this instructor Is Filipino inspired as the style is a little bit rigid, but this is how I see my art with a little more freedom.









Don't know if this will link.
Ian Dreadlox :) on Instagram: “Just getting a bit of air time while sparring coach @antonzafirmma haha   #whoisiandreadlox #whitsundaymartialarts #airliebeach”


----------



## Gweilo

Here's the thing, I believe in my art, I wish I had the exuberance of my youth, with the experience of my years, I have offered to test my art against other martial artists, they have refused, as I am not a big enough fish, but the big fish do not want to risk their reps, I understand some of the arguments, but unless you have trained in Systema you don't know, you can say some things are not valid, or you can say it's no different from other arts in certain aspects, but until big fish are willing to step up, or people are willing to try it, or the art is allowed to show itself on the world stage, rumours and opinions are going to reign, I could spend 20 mins on the net and find substandard videos to ridicule any art on the planet, but I also understand Systema needs to prove itself on the same stage, all I can say is I am trying, if you try it and don't like it, fine, not your cup of tea, fine. Debate the art, I am up for that, it's healthy to debate, but to dismiss the art as parlour tricks, when you have not tried it, maybe that says more about yourself than your martial arts.


----------



## Buka

gpseymour said:


> I'd argue the instep kick is more natural for most folks than the front kick....unless we use different names for those kicks, which is entirely possible. And the round kick's basic concept is pretty natural, if you stay away from the more technical bits. Side kick certainly isn't natural, nor most snap kicks, hook kicks, axe kicks.



How so? Are you referring to a roundhouse kick as the instep kick? Or do you mean a front kick using the instep - which is still a front kick as far as the motion of the leg goes. 

A front kick is pretty much the same motion as the leg in walking.


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Here's the thing, I believe in my art, I wish I had the exuberance of my youth, with the experience of my years, I have offered to test my art against other martial artists, they have refused, as I am not a big enough fish, but the big fish do not want to risk their reps, I understand some of the arguments, but unless you have trained in Systema you don't know, you can say some things are not valid, or you can say it's no different from other arts in certain aspects, but until big fish are willing to step up, or people are willing to try it, or the art is allowed to show itself on the world stage, rumours and opinions are going to reign, I could spend 20 mins on the net and find substandard videos to ridicule any art on the planet, but I also understand Systema needs to prove itself on the same stage, all I can say is I am trying, if you try it and don't like it, fine, not your cup of tea, fine. Debate the art, I am up for that, it's healthy to debate, but to dismiss the art as parlour tricks, when you have not tried it, maybe that says more about yourself than your martial arts.


Mate....relax. You like systema then great brilliant you keep doing what you're doing. Not everyone's going to like it and that's fine to. I don't like systema. I've checked it out and it's something I have no interest in doing and I see no upside to me doing it. That's my opinion and I'm happy to say my opinion. No one needs to step up...you fighting someone over something so petty and stupid isn't going to do anything. You and me spar and you kick my *** I'm still not going to go and train systema or change my opinions. Because systema isn't for me and it never will be I don't care if you can beat me up with it I'm not going to train something I don't like for such a childish reason. 

Just do what you do and don't worry about my opinion or anyone else's opinion. Just because I don't like systema that doesn't make me a bad person or a bad martial artist. Some people prefer football, some prefer golf, some prefer tennis you don't see football players getting butt hurt because a golf player doesn't like football. 

You like systema then you keep training my friend. I don't like systema and I'll continue doing what I do. My opinion has no bearing on your life just as yours has no bearing on mine.


----------



## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> Here's the thing, I believe in my art, I wish I had the exuberance of my youth, with the experience of my years, I have offered to test my art against other martial artists, they have refused, as I am not a big enough fish, but the big fish do not want to risk their reps, I understand some of the arguments, but unless you have trained in Systema you don't know, you can say some things are not valid, or you can say it's no different from other arts in certain aspects, but until big fish are willing to step up, or people are willing to try it, or the art is allowed to show itself on the world stage, rumours and opinions are going to reign, I could spend 20 mins on the net and find substandard videos to ridicule any art on the planet, but I also understand Systema needs to prove itself on the same stage, all I can say is I am trying, if you try it and don't like it, fine, not your cup of tea, fine. Debate the art, I am up for that, it's healthy to debate, but to dismiss the art as parlour tricks, when you have not tried it, maybe that says more about yourself than your martial arts.



So a whole bunch of MMA promotions, BJJ comps, boxing, kickboxing  just turned you down?

The other difference with the argument that Systema has these videos of silly stuff. Is if someone says my art does silly stuff I can find good videos of my school. So then I can support my training with video evidence.

And that is the argument that negates the bad videos.

This is also how everything that is considered a parlor trick is tested. I mean I am not skeptical of water dowsing or psychic powers so I go become a psychic. Nobody has time for that.

I go watch a blind test that someone has set up to see if the claims are legit.

MMA is a blind test. Because you can make a bunch of claims and then see how consistently they are represented.


----------



## drop bear

Headhunter said:


> Mate....relax. You like systema then great brilliant you keep doing what you're doing. Not everyone's going to like it and that's fine to. I don't like systema. I've checked it out and it's something I have no interest in doing and I see no upside to me doing it. That's my opinion and I'm happy to say my opinion. No one needs to step up...you fighting someone over something so petty and stupid isn't going to do anything. You and me spar and you kick my *** I'm still not going to go and train systema or change my opinions. Because systema isn't for me and it never will be I don't care if you can beat me up with it I'm not going to train something I don't like for such a childish reason.
> 
> Just do what you do and don't worry about my opinion or anyone else's opinion. Just because I don't like systema that doesn't make me a bad person or a bad martial artist. Some people prefer football, some prefer golf, some prefer tennis you don't see football players getting butt hurt because a golf player doesn't like football.
> 
> You like systema then you keep training my friend. I don't like systema and I'll continue doing what I do. My opinion has no bearing on your life just as yours has no bearing on mine.



Had an interesting discussion with one of my coaches about the difference between happiness and fulfillment.

People tend to put happiness at the top of achievement. Like you do when you make these statements like any training is fine. Or that light rolling is better than competitive rolling.

But here is the scenario. You can either play the football final or go out drinking with your friends.

If you go out drinking you will be happy.

If you play the final you get beat up but win. Which is fulfillment.

The thing is it is  commonly considered better to reach for fulfillment rather than happiness if you want to be successful at anything.

Striving for mediocrity.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> How so? Are you referring to a roundhouse kick as the instep kick? Or do you mean a front kick using the instep - which is still a front kick as far as the motion of the leg goes.
> 
> A front kick is pretty much the same motion as the leg in walking.


Our "instep kick" is pretty much just a soccer kick (upward finish, so think of it used on someone you've grappled to a bent-over position). Our "front kick" is a thrusting kick. So it might just be a difference in terminology.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Had an interesting discussion with one of my coaches about the difference between happiness and fulfillment.
> 
> People tend to put happiness at the top of achievement. Like you do when you make these statements like any training is fine. Or that light rolling is better than competitive rolling.
> 
> But here is the scenario. You can either play the football final or go out drinking with your friends.
> 
> If you go out drinking you will be happy.
> 
> If you play the final you get beat up but win. Which is fulfillment.
> 
> The thing is it is  commonly considered better to reach for fulfillment rather than happiness if you want to be successful at anything.
> 
> Striving for mediocrity.


We don't need to be the best at everything we do. I've not played in a football final in many years. If I stepped on the field now, it'd be for fun. Heck, it was for fun back when I played in finals. I was good. I worked hard to get good, because being good was fun - it made me happy to play the game with others having fun (didn't much care for the folks who forgot it was a game).


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> We don't need to be the best at everything we do. I've not played in a football final in many years. If I stepped on the field now, it'd be for fun. Heck, it was for fun back when I played in finals. I was good. I worked hard to get good, because being good was fun - it made me happy to play the game with others having fun (didn't much care for the folks who forgot it was a game).



That's fine. But I think we should encourage others to succeed as much as we can. Rather than constantly encouraging people to give up.

I also think encouraging others to succeed isn't condemning anyone else's lack of success.

That for me is just how to behave as a decent human being.


----------



## Flying Crane

Gweilo said:


> Here's the thing, I believe in my art, I wish I had the exuberance of my youth, with the experience of my years, I have offered to test my art against other martial artists, they have refused, as I am not a big enough fish, but the big fish do not want to risk their reps, I understand some of the arguments, but unless you have trained in Systema you don't know, you can say some things are not valid, or you can say it's no different from other arts in certain aspects, but until big fish are willing to step up, or people are willing to try it, or the art is allowed to show itself on the world stage, rumours and opinions are going to reign, I could spend 20 mins on the net and find substandard videos to ridicule any art on the planet, but I also understand Systema needs to prove itself on the same stage, all I can say is I am trying, if you try it and don't like it, fine, not your cup of tea, fine. Debate the art, I am up for that, it's healthy to debate, but to dismiss the art as parlour tricks, when you have not tried it, maybe that says more about yourself than your martial arts.


Systema does not need to prove itself on the world stage.  No art does, no person does.  Really, it does not matter.  Really.

The people for whom that kind of thing matters, are the people who do not matter.


----------



## drop bear

Flying Crane said:


> Systema does not need to prove itself on the world stage.  No art does, no person does.  Really, it does not matter.  Really.
> 
> The people for whom that kind of thing matters, are the people who do not matter.



Actually the reverse is true.

A person who could make Systema effective on the world stage would matter considerably more than you.

If we just looked empirically at the amount of influence that person could have over someone who achieves nothing. The difference is cut and dried.

And that would even be elements completely unrelated to fighting.

So for example this is Chris Cyborg visiting a cancer center.





Her positive effect on cancer patients is based solely because she matters more than you do. 

And she matters more than you because she proved herself on the world stage.


----------



## drop bear




----------



## Gweilo




----------



## Gweilo

The following is a train video on movement, and looking

Matt Hill


----------



## Gweilo

drop bear said:


> So a whole bunch of MMA promotions, BJJ comps, boxing, kickboxing just turned you down?


No this is who turned me down


----------



## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> No this is who turned me down



But he is not your only option to get a fight if you wanted one.


----------



## Gweilo

Yes pretty much he is, who else wants to fight a 49 year old former Un liscened fighter?


----------



## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> Yes pretty much he is, who else wants to fight a 49 year old former Un liscened fighter?



Some other pensioner giving his first fight a go.

We get 50year olds fight all the time. There was a master's k1 title fight being thrown around recently.

Guy has had 5 fights or something.


----------



## drop bear

How old was Idris Elba when he did his first fight?


----------



## Gweilo

Yeah thanks for the pensioner quote


----------



## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> Yeah thanks for the pensioner quote



No dramas.

Pretty sure you can't fight with Zimmer frames. But I am sure you will make do.


----------



## Gweilo

Yeah here's a piccy of my new improved side kick.


----------



## Gweilo

An inter sting read, follow the in story links for a more in depth discussion. 

Longer Exhalations Are an Easy Way to Hack Your Vagus Nerve


----------



## _Simon_

Gweilo said:


> An inter sting read, follow the in story links for a more in depth discussion.
> 
> Longer Exhalations Are an Easy Way to Hack Your Vagus Nerve


Ah thanks for posting this, that's really bizarre timing, just had a kinesiology session today and deep breathing was brought up as a really helpful tool for me at this time. Perfect timing


----------



## Gweilo

It is so important, when we start on a journey to improve ourself, nutrition, exercise, hydration, rest days, are all given priority over the most important thing we do, and the thing we die quickest from if we are starved of.
A lot of arts encourage breath out on a strike etc, but very few look at the benefits of breath work as a whole. Most take for granted the process of breathing, and how we can pace, restore, cool ourself, let alone the phycological benefits. I would encourage any body that has an interest in this subject to study the work of Konstantin Butyeko. I am not saying he was the founder of breath techniques, but studying his own medical condition, and detecting and predicting the death of people to within minutes by their breath patterns was awesome. Writting a report that was rejected by the Soviet government, then being seconded into the military, to develop  breathing techniques to improve military perfomance, then being dismissed, and only being famous for developing breathing techniques for aesthmatics was criminal IMHO, but what I will say, the Breath techniques I have learnt recently, have transformed me drastically, breath and movement, everything else is secondary.


----------



## Gweilo

Just to give an idea, if anyone else wants to try, I do this when I walk my dogs, the Russian breath ladder, you start by breathing in for 1 step, you then breath out for 1 step, the in breath must last for the one step, as does the out breath, then you make the in breath last for 2 steps,  as the out breath, at present I can without speeding up my pace, make an in breath last for 72 steps my target is 100, the idea is you can pace the breath so the oxygen intake and Co2 out breath is regulated even under pressure, you can change your needs to your breath pattern, to your rythem or your need for recovery, i.e matching your breath rate to your heart beat.


----------



## Buka

Gweilo said:


> Just to give an idea, if anyone else wants to try, I do this when I walk my dogs, the Russian breath ladder, you start by breathing in for 1 step, you then breath out for 1 step, the in breath must last for the one step, as does the out breath, then you make the in breath last for 2 steps,  as the out breath, at present I can without speeding up my pace, make an in breath last for 72 steps my target is 100, the idea is you can pace the breath so the oxygen intake and Co2 out breath is regulated even under pressure, you can change your needs to your breath pattern, to your rythem or your need for recovery, i.e matching your breath rate to your heart beat.



I had never heard of this. I'll be on a walking beat at work next Monday and Tuesday, I can't wait to try this out.

Crazy Russians. I love it.


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## Gweilo

Buka said:


> I had never heard of this. I'll be on a walking beat at work next Monday and Tuesday, I can't wait to try this out.
> 
> Crazy Russians. I love it.



Walking beat will be an excellent way for practicing breath techniques, the one mentioned is great, but the one I practice most are the basic breath ladders, which come in 4 ways.
Firstly you must keep good posture as walk, try to remain as relaxed as you can, breath in through nose out through mouth, and walking at your normal pace breath in for one step, breath out for 1 step, then breath in for 2 steps out for 2, up to 15 steps to start with, try not to breath in until your lungs are so full it causes you to gag, or panic, and try to be as smooth as possible, try to control the amount of breath released or taken in so the breath last for all the steps, once at 15, go back down to 1.
Then once you have the hang of it, try a triangle breath pattern, same as before, but a in breath for 1 step, hold your breath for 1 step, then exhale for 1 step, again up to 15 to start with then down to 1, again try to keep the breath smooth and each phase last for all the steps.
3rd is the square breath, breath in for 1 step, hold for 1 step, exhale for 1 step, and an empty lung hold for 1 step, this is the harder one, again up to 15, and back to 1. This one is harder when you exchange the steps, for a press up, sit up etc, so 1 situp on an in breath, 1 on a full hold, 1 on an exhale, 1 on an empty hold, then 2, up to 5 reps, so a whole cycle would be 60 sit ups, once you have mastered it. Then after 5 mins recovering by stretching and rolling, move to press ups, leg raises, squats, and pull ups, just to be clear 5 situp's whilst breathing in once, 5 on a hold etc.
The 4th is slightly different, I call sausage breath, I use it when I walk my dogs, breath in for 4 steps, hold for 4 steps, exhale for 8 steps, excellent for clearing out carbon dioxide, great for an early morning walk.
For recovering yourself, especially when you first try the square breath pattern, is burst breathing, when under stress or to regain your breath after excersion, in through the nose, out through the mouth, try to match your heart beat for approx 8 seconds, then take a deep in breath, and then exhale, burst breath again for 8 seconds, deep in take exhale, after 3 cycles you will find you are pretty much restored.


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## Buka

Gweilo said:


> Walking beat will be an excellent way for practicing breath techniques, the one mentioned is great, but the one I practice most are the basic breath ladders, which come in 4 ways.
> Firstly you must keep good posture as walk, try to remain as relaxed as you can, breath in through nose out through mouth, and walking at your normal pace breath in for one step, breath out for 1 step, then breath in for 2 steps out for 2, up to 15 steps to start with, try not to breath in until your lungs are so full it causes you to gag, or panic, and try to be as smooth as possible, try to control the amount of breath released or taken in so the breath last for all the steps, once at 15, go back down to 1.
> Then once you have the hang of it, try a triangle breath pattern, same as before, but a in breath for 1 step, hold your breath for 1 step, then exhale for 1 step, again up to 15 to start with then down to 1, again try to keep the breath smooth and each phase last for all the steps.
> 3rd is the square breath, breath in for 1 step, hold for 1 step, exhale for 1 step, and an empty lung hold for 1 step, this is the harder one, again up to 15, and back to 1. This one is harder when you exchange the steps, for a press up, sit up etc, so 1 situp on an in breath, 1 on a full hold, 1 on an exhale, 1 on an empty hold, then 2, up to 5 reps, so a whole cycle would be 60 sit ups, once you have mastered it. Then after 5 mins recovering by stretching and rolling, move to press ups, leg raises, squats, and pull ups, just to be clear 5 situp's whilst breathing in once, 5 on a hold etc.
> The 4th is slightly different, I call sausage breath, I use it when I walk my dogs, breath in for 4 steps, hold for 4 steps, exhale for 8 steps, excellent for clearing out carbon dioxide, great for an early morning walk.
> For recovering yourself, especially when you first try the square breath pattern, is burst breathing, when under stress or to regain your breath after excersion, in through the nose, out through the mouth, try to match your heart beat for approx 8 seconds, then take a deep in breath, and then exhale, burst breath again for 8 seconds, deep in take exhale, after 3 cycles you will find you are pretty much restored.



I got it.

I've done a bunch of breathing stuff, I got it. Just have to be able to do it so I don't look like a guy doing a bunch of breathing exercises and frighten the tourists.


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## Gerry Seymour

Gweilo said:


> Just to give an idea, if anyone else wants to try, I do this when I walk my dogs, the Russian breath ladder, you start by breathing in for 1 step, you then breath out for 1 step, the in breath must last for the one step, as does the out breath, then you make the in breath last for 2 steps,  as the out breath, at present I can without speeding up my pace, make an in breath last for 72 steps my target is 100, the idea is you can pace the breath so the oxygen intake and Co2 out breath is regulated even under pressure, you can change your needs to your breath pattern, to your rythem or your need for recovery, i.e matching your breath rate to your heart beat.


I hadn't heard of it used to that extent (nor the name), but I've worked with a similar approach, even with my running (where my asthma would kick in, making it even more useful).

I work with breathing nearly every class. It's incorporated as a conscious practice in the wrist exercises we use as part of the cool-down. I keep wanting to incorporate something into warm-ups as well, but I'm resisting the urge to expand those exercises right now.


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## Gweilo

As with most MA the actual truth about origins is murky, but from what I am told, the origins of Russian breath techniques may have originated from DR Konstantin buteyko,  the chap who is known for breathing techniques for Aesthmatics,  as I understand it he could predict the death of sick patients within minutes, due to their breath patterns, and could control the pain of his own illness by changing his own breath patterns, this we know is true as there is evidence for. But the next part of the story is murky, Dr Buteyko did produce a medical paper of his studies to the Soviet medical council, which was reported to have been rejected on the grounds of insurficient evidence, which there is evidence for this report, what is not substantiated is whether or not it was true, he was seconded into the military to help formulate military training.
But what I can tell you, since training theses methods, my endurance, recovery, have improved drastically, and in a couple of instances where the has been a threat of violence towards myself, my breathing has helped me remain calm, not nervous, no adrenaline rush, and very little tension, and been relaxed, but ready to react. Stress is dealt with very quickly, by using the breath techniques in more common way, breath in a creating tension through my body, breath out and relaxing, or perfoming movement, that is linked to my inhale and exhale, relaxing or getting to sleep is not a problem, at 49 I can easy do 10 hours of shut eye every night.


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## Gweilo

The difference between Systema breathing and those of Yoga and Qi Gong,  again I make no claims systema is better, just different. 
Historically techniques for training breath,  movement and posture have existed, most with impressive credentials, and are connected with medical and religious traditions of China and India, who's methods sound similar, but philosophy,  focus and practice differ fundamentally.
The methods of Yoga and qi gong cultivate awareness of breath by means of extended series of complicated postures, which require great attention to inner states and extreme physiological control, in Systema the breath alone is primary, which only teaches us to extend our awareness of what we already have,  we do not refer to deep channels of energy within our body.
The posture, exercises and processes of systema are simple in structure and appearance, and the benefits come as we begin to better our understanding of our natural body, mind and emotions, under difficult but controlled conditions,  and challenges us right at the edge of our current strength levels.
I have no wish to knock other arts, some arts believe they reach a state of perfect physical balance and they achieve a mystical state, they may well do this, I have never tried, they may be able to in quiet rooms, with nice carpets, soft music in the background, and the smell of incense wafting around the room, and if that works for them that's great, but I wonder if the can achieve this state, when they are cold, hungry, or an agressive  115 kg person wants to punch their face in, I am not sure.
In Systema dealing with stress is a skill that can be refined, by controlling our breath in stressful situations, means our body remains free of emotions like fear, and free from tension, which means we can hold good posture, which means we can move, which means we can survive (now I wait for the barrage from yoga and qi kong practioners).


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## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> I have no wish to knock other arts, some arts believe they reach a state of perfect physical balance and they achieve a mystical state, they may well do this, I have never tried, they may be able to in quiet rooms, with nice carpets, soft music in the background, and the smell of incense wafting around the room, and if that works for them that's great, but I wonder if the can achieve this state, when they are cold, hungry, or an agressive 115 kg person wants to punch their face in, I am not sure.
> In Systema dealing with stress is a skill that can be refined, by controlling our breath in stressful situations, means our body remains free of emotions like fear, and free from tension, which means we can hold good posture, which means we can move, which means we can survive (now I wait for the barrage from yoga and qi kong practioners).



The thing is. That is pretty easy to test. You could just hard wrestle a guy for three rounds.


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## Gweilo

I do on a regular basis, the approach to training in class changes every month, last months approach was working on the ground, every class we pressure test at the end 1/3 of the class, then it culminates to a class at the end of each month, which is structured by a stretch and warm up period, followed by 3 mins floor sparring, where each of the paired students, go full on looking to escape, grapple, strike, apply submissions etc, followed by 1 min rest, change partners, then for another 3 mins, this round Robin if you like will last 45 mins or so. Obviously, if you are paired with a less experienced student, I will turn it into a play/exploration/experimental type session, but my next opponent may be stronger or quicker, or larger, so there is a puzzle to solve. This months approach is distance and timing is the main focus, next month it may be stick or knife, or multiple attackers, and I am not a once a week guy, I do Mondays,  Tuesdays,  Thursdays,  and most Saturday mornings, so I know the benefits of these breath techniques work.


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## Gweilo

Keeping calm, tension free enables you to be in complete control. Systema summer challenge for leg control, you will only achieve the challenge with no tension in your legs, being relaxed and in control, give it ago

Matt Hill


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## Gweilo

A quick test for the efficiency of breath within movements. 





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=685773055229282


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## Gweilo

More breathing through movement.


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## Gerry Seymour

Gweilo said:


> A quick test for the efficiency of breath within movements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=685773055229282


That one's tough for me - I'm used to letting the breath go with the movements naturally. I ended up having to just delay the inhale some at the end, but still a normal inhale.


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## Gweilo

gpseymour said:


> That one's tough for me - I'm used to letting the breath go with the movements naturally. I ended up having to just delay the inhale some at the end, but still a normal inhale.



In a normal situation, we would breath with our movement too. This exercise is designed to put our movement and breathing under pressure, so with practice, in a high pressure situation, we don't lock our body up, we are able to move, escape or counter.
In many cases, once we lose control of our breathing, the tension creeps in, muscles tense, movement is restricted, then the mind games start, I am trapped, he's got me etc, by learning to regulate, or elongate our breath, we are able to control, or even eliminate, that creeping tension, fear, mind games, so our body and phyche is free to move as efficiently and effectively as possible.


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## Gerry Seymour

Gweilo said:


> In a normal situation, we would breath with our movement too. This exercise is designed to put our movement and breathing under pressure, so with practice, in a high pressure situation, we don't lock our body up, we are able to move, escape or counter.
> In many cases, once we lose control of our breathing, the tension creeps in, muscles tense, movement is restricted, then the mind games start, I am trapped, he's got me etc, by learning to regulate, or elongate our breath, we are able to control, or even eliminate, that creeping tension, fear, mind games, so our body and phyche is free to move as efficiently and effectively as possible.


There is some science behind that idea of using breathing to control stress response. I practice a fair amount of breath control, but it's focused differently, and didn't translate well to the idea of maintaining a smooth exhale through disparate movements. I think the way I use breath in falls and rolls has a lot of influence on that set of movements. It'll be an interesting challenge to see what it takes to maintain that even exhale.


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## Gweilo

gpseymour said:


> There is some science behind that idea of using breathing to control stress response. I practice a fair amount of breath control, but it's focused differently, and didn't translate well to the idea of maintaining a smooth exhale through disparate movements. I think the way I use breath in falls and rolls has a lot of influence on that set of movements. It'll be an interesting challenge to see what it takes to maintain that even exhale.



There is an interesting read with a link I added in post #146 about the Vagus nerve. The test on the video is the beginning of a harder set of breathing techniques we use, the end result would be the 4 movements an in breath,  followed by 4 on a full hold, the 4 on an exhale, 4 on an empty hold, it is difficult, especially trying to return to a normal breath pattern after the excercise,  with no, or minium restoration. It is something to build up to, after basic breath ladders. We also perfom the's sequence of breath pattern whilst rolling, but it is vital keep each breath phase constant, so an in breath must be smooth and constant through the sequence as would the exhale.


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## jobo

gpseymour said:


> There is some science behind that idea of using breathing to control stress response. I practice a fair amount of breath control, but it's focused differently, and didn't translate well to the idea of maintaining a smooth exhale through disparate movements. I think the way I use breath in falls and rolls has a lot of influence on that set of movements. It'll be an interesting challenge to see what it takes to maintain that even exhale.


i think that's cart before horses, controlling stress response, is controlling your nervious system, that then controls your breathing, rather than the other way round, or if your anxiety response kicks in, there nothing you can do to control your breathing, except gain control of your nervous system, once you have your breathing is under control


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> i think that's cart before horses, controlling stress response, is controlling your nervious system, that then controls your breathing, rather than the other way round, or if your anxiety response kicks in, there nothing you can do to control your breathing, except gain control of your nervous system, once you have your breathing is under control



I disagree, the breathing is the 1st thing that elevates, control the breath, the rest is easier. If I get into a conflict situation (granted that's not very often), I am able to remain calm , relaxed (poised and ready, not floppy), I no longer get a surge of adrenaline, grind teeth, screw up the nose, this all starts with my breathing. It may work the other way round for you, but not for myself, again there is an interesting read, about hacking the Vagus nerve through your breath, there is a link in post #146.


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> I disagree, the breathing is the 1st thing that elevates, control the breath, the rest is easier. If I get into a conflict situation (granted that's not very often), I am able to remain calm , relaxed (poised and ready, not floppy), I no longer get a surge of adrenaline, grind teeth, screw up the nose, this all starts with my breathing. It may work the other way round for you, but not for myself, again there is an interesting read, about hacking the Vagus nerve through your breath, there is a link in post #146.


but it's your nervous system that controlling your breathing, its yournervous  system that controlling the adrenaline responce not your breathing, similarly its your nervious system that controlling your shaking and bowl evacuation response. 

concentrating on your breathing is a mental trick to gain control of your nervous system, once you've mastered your nervious system, then there's no need to consciously control breathing as your nervous system does it automatically


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## Gweilo

ŹZZZZZZZ


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> i think that's cart before horses, controlling stress response, is controlling your nervious system, that then controls your breathing, rather than the other way round, or if your anxiety response kicks in, there nothing you can do to control your breathing, except gain control of your nervous system, once you have your breathing is under control


There’s some good evidence breathing can influence the overall response. I have some ideas as why, but no idea if my ideas are based on anything real. In spite of my ignorance and the counterintuitive nature of the concept, there’s evidence it works.


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> but it's your nervous system that controlling your breathing, its yournervous  system that controlling the adrenaline responce not your breathing, similarly its your nervious system that controlling your shaking and bowl evacuation response.
> 
> concentrating on your breathing is a mental trick to gain control of your nervous system, once you've mastered your nervious system, then there's no need to consciously control breathing as your nervous system does it automatically


It could be just a mental trick (in which case, it still works). It could also be that conscious control of breathing requires the use of brain centers (like the executive center) that can override and control the emotional center (where the stress reaction originates). So it may be that controlling breathing initiates that override.


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## jobo

gpseymour said:


> It could be just a mental trick (in which case, it still works). It could also be that conscious control of breathing requires the use of brain centers (like the executive center) that can override and control the emotional center (where the stress reaction originates). So it may be that controlling breathing initiates that override.





gpseymour said:


> It could be just a mental trick (in which case, it still works). It could also be that conscious control of breathing requires the use of brain centers (like the executive center) that can override and control the emotional center (where the stress reaction originates). So it may be that controlling breathing initiates that override.



well no, not by definition, if your over ridding the emotional centre, then your controlling your nervous system, which in turn moderates your breathing,, its aways the effect of n/ s control and not the cause, which is why breathing control is a sticking plaster and you should have work on control of your n/ s  and then you wouldn't have elevated breathing/ racing heartbeat or any other of the stress reactions in the first place, unless you decided you need them and then you can release adrenaline as you need it,, 
you really don't have time in an emergency situation to stand there doing breathing exercisess to control you fear responce by the time you've gained control you or someone is serious injuried


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> well no, not by definition, if your over ridding the emotional centre, then your controlling your nervous system, which in turn moderates your breathing,, its aways the effect of n/ s control and not the cause, which is why breathing control is a sticking plaster and you should have work on control of your n/ s  and then you wouldn't have elevated breathing/ racing heartbeat or any other of the stress reactions in the first place, unless you decided you need them and then you can release adrenaline as you need it,,
> you really don't have time in an emergency situation to stand there doing breathing exercisess to control you fear responce by the time you've gained control you or someone is serious injuried



This demonstrates your one tract mind, within ma, the breathing exercises are used to train yourself to breath in a way, that is constant throughout your life, and once mastered it is a natural occurrence, like a muscle reflex, your breath patterns change. Now days I breath in and out through my nose, like most, but I only take the air I need, if I am out walking the dogs, my breathing changes to in through nose out through mouth, without me consiously changing, when I am starting to work a bit harder, my in breath is no longer sharp and deep, but smooth and long, my exhale is slightly longer than the inhale. I also never catch myself holding my breath for no reason. This is not a case of some exercises to get my breathing correct for a session, or a fight, these are a series of breath training excersises, to use every day as a constant. In Systema we believe that breathing is a function of the body, that can be maximised, just like the rest of the human body, I know the typical Jobo reply will be, "I am XX years old, and my breathing has got me this far", but if you wish to be the very best you can be, then every single part of you, needs to be at its best.


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## Gweilo

Simple test, to do if you are walking the dog, in through nose out through mouth, breath in for 1 step, hold breath 1 step, exhale 1 step, empty hold 1 step, your inhale for example must last for the whole of each stage, so the inhale must last for example 1 step, then 2 steps, 3 steps, see if you can get up to 10 steps, which is a very basic level. At the end of the process the aim is to return to your normal breathing pattern comfortably, hopefully imediatley,  or with a very short recovery. At present I can achieve 24 steps comfortably, but can go to 27 steps, but with a fair bit of recovery.
Over the years I have done a couple of different arts, and if tomorrow, I could only keep 1 element of my ma journey, it would be without thought or question,  the breathing techniques that I have gained, whilst training this art.


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> This demonstrates your one tract mind, within ma, the breathing exercises are used to train yourself to breath in a way, that is constant throughout your life, and once mastered it is a natural occurrence, like a muscle reflex, your breath patterns change. Now days I breath in and out through my nose, like most, but I only take the air I need, if I am out walking the dogs, my breathing changes to in through nose out through mouth, without me consiously changing, when I am starting to work a bit harder, my in breath is no longer sharp and deep, but smooth and long, my exhale is slightly longer than the inhale. I also never catch myself holding my breath for no reason. This is not a case of some exercises to get my breathing correct for a session, or a fight, these are a series of breath training excersises, to use every day as a constant. In Systema we believe that breathing is a function of the body, that can be maximised, just like the rest of the human body, I know the typical Jobo reply will be, "I am XX years old, and my breathing has got me this far", but if you wish to be the very best you can be, then every single part of you, needs to be at its best.


for as much as i have considered it, which is just the last two minutes, that exactly how I breath,

it's a supply and demand system, with the blood stream acting as a depository, to store oxygen for instance access, so, breathing efficiently has three elements, the efficient extraction of oxygen by the lungs, ( and the removal of co2 )an elevated level of blood oxygen and 5h efficient use of oxigen by the muscles, as long as that system works you don't get elevated breathing, if it breaks down you do, or  if you're bringing oxygen at the same level as its being consumed your respirator system ( and therefore your breathing pattern)is working just fine.

the more you can do before you need deep breaths,the fitter you are, ie deep breathing in a significant indicator of lack of fitness, if you fitness was better you wouldn't need to, so its a sticking plaster to cover up lack of fitness,  which you could a dress by agood excersise routeen. I

one of the ways to do this is to build the oxygen efficiency of the muscle by concentrate on building your anaerobic capacity, ie th e intensity / duration you can achieve with out using oxygen at all. the higher this is the less important breathing is to your athletic performance, when I'm doing circuit training I consider elevated breathing as a failure, as I've built it up I can now do  3 x 10 high intensity exercises in half an hour with barely raised heart and breathing  and knock of a ten minute miles with my walking speed breathing, 7 min miles and I have to start raising my breathing some what. but working on it. similarly I can do 100 m hill sprints witout  troubling my respority system were a few months ago a was panting after one


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> Simple test, to do if you are walking the dog, in through nose out through mouth, breath in for 1 step, hold breath 1 step, exhale 1 step, empty hold 1 step, your inhale for example must last for the whole of each stage, so the inhale must last for example 1 step, then 2 steps, 3 steps, see if you can get up to 10 steps, which is a very basic level. At the end of the process the aim is to return to your normal breathing pattern comfortably, hopefully imediatley,  or with a very short recovery. At present I can achieve 24 steps comfortably, but can go to 27 steps, but with a fair bit of recovery.
> Over the years I have done a couple of different arts, and if tomorrow, I could only keep 1 element of my ma journey, it would be without thought or question,  the breathing techniques that I have gained, whilst training this art.


you've clearly been told and accepted this as some sort of truth, with out checking if there is some sports science behind it?, my view is I " train like an athlete" if soccer players aren't doing thirty steps holding their breath to build their fitness, I can see no reason to go off the accepted wisdom and start doing so ? they employ the best fitness coaches in the world, in a environment were results are everything


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> you've clearly been told and accepted this as some sort of truth, with out checking if there is some sports science behind i



No you've heard one small part of a training system, it does not fit in with your ideaology and decided you know better, and come to a conclusion to fit your own beliefs. That's fine, but please do not assume, I am stupid.


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## Gweilo

Just found this after 30 seconds searching on the Internet. Read it all including the conclusion, there are loads more sites, including sports and medical councils from around the globe.

Breathing  Exercises - Sports Psychology - IResearchNet


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> Just found this after 30 seconds searching on the Internet. Read it all including the conclusion, there are loads more sites, including sports and medical councils from around the globe.
> 
> Breathing  Exercises - Sports Psychology - IResearchNet


so where the one were you don't breath out for 30 steps ?


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> No you've heard one small part of a training system, it does not fit in with your ideaology and decided you know better, and come to a conclusion to fit your own beliefs. That's fine, but please do not assume, I am stupid.




I know exactly what you've told me above, if that not a sufficient amount to judge you should have typed more, I can only answer the points you make


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> so where the one were you don't breath out for 30 steps ?



I said I currently can do 24 steps comfortably,  this is a personal goal of mine.


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## Gweilo

Sports Psychology – Relaxation in Sports


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## Gweilo

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10615809808248313


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## Gweilo

One more for you to read

US7117032B2 - Systems and methods for facilitating physiological coherence using respiration training          - Google Patents


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> I said I currently can do 24 steps comfortably,  this is a personal goal of mine.


well yes and you told me I should do it, with no particular reason on why it may be beneficial


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10615809808248313


these are phycological papers telling you how to deal with anxiety , this appears to be no use at all the physical performance , if you've trained yourselves not to be anxious ?

as I outlined above, deep breathing for anxiety, is ok, if you got a reasonable amount of time to stand there and breathe deeply and not at all in a emergency situation, that required instant action , that why people commonly freeze,, give them 30 seconds to breath and there fine, but their kids been run over by then


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> well no, not by definition, if your over ridding the emotional centre, then your controlling your nervous system, which in turn moderates your breathing,, its aways the effect of n/ s control and not the cause, which is why breathing control is a sticking plaster and you should have work on control of your n/ s  and then you wouldn't have elevated breathing/ racing heartbeat or any other of the stress reactions in the first place, unless you decided you need them and then you can release adrenaline as you need it,,
> you really don't have time in an emergency situation to stand there doing breathing exercisess to control you fear responce by the time you've gained control you or someone is serious injuried


That you don’t like the explanation (or want to argue semantics) doesn’t alter that the techniques have some evidence of efficacy.


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## jobo

gpseymour said:


> That you don’t like the explanation (or want to argue semantics) doesn’t alter that the techniques have some evidence of efficacy.


yes, because you learning to control your NS to control your breathing, or if you would like to put forward a different method for controlling your breathing , that DOESNT require you to first use your NS , I'd be fascinated, as I suspect would most of medical science


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> yes, because you learning to control your NS to control your breathing, or if you would like to put forward a different method for controlling your breathing , that DOESNT require you to first use your NS , I'd be fascinated, as I suspect would most of medical science


In this and other posts you claim, you control the nervous system thus controlling your breath,  and that breathing itself does not control the nervous system. So if I hold my breath what happens?
My blood pressure starts to raise, my heart rate quickens, to the point, where my body starts to feel uncomfortable,  then there is gag reflex, then there is pain, and if I where stupid enough, to keep holding, there would be damage to my brain, and eventually death, so the fact that by controlling my breath, can control my endocrine system, can cause gag reflexes controls my muscular system, then pain which is contolled by the nervous system, I would say, the Breath can control the nervous system.


----------



## Gweilo

jobo said:


> well yes and you told me I should do it, with no particular reason on why it may be beneficial


The thread is titled Systema a discussion, so I told anybody who read the post about breath techniques, could try them. The reason they are beneficial has been mentioned in earlier posts.


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> In this and other posts you claim, you control the nervous system thus controlling your breath,  and that breathing itself does not control the nervous system. So if I hold my breath what happens?
> My blood pressure starts to raise, my heart rate quickens, to the point, where my body starts to feel uncomfortable,  then there is gag reflex, then there is pain, and if I where stupid enough, to keep holding, there would be damage to my brain, and eventually death, so the fact that by controlling my breath, can control my endocrine system, can cause gag reflexes controls my muscular system, then pain which is contolled by the nervous system, I would say, the Breath can control the nervous system.


none of those happen if I hold my breath, eventually I pass out through lack of oxygen to the brain and then start breathing again, in fact, if  I've I stoped my breathing my heart rate slows considerably,, but then I'm also purposely slowing my heart, the ability to do it to blacking out is its self an excessive in controlling your nervous sytem
 you can't hold your breath beyond passing out, so there's is absolutely no danger of either brain damage of death, unless your under water of course,  or to out out another way its aabsolutely impossible to commit suicide by stopping your own breathing

so your using conscious control of your ns to restrict your breathing, till the point that your ns senses impending doom and takes back contro, the systems you are experiencing are the ns way of telling you its not a good idea, until eventually out over rides your control


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> The thread is titled Systema a discussion, so I told anybody who read the post about breath techniques, could try them. The reason they are beneficial has been mentioned in earlier posts.


no you expressly told me to d it, during dog walking, so the logical question is why  what benefit would  it do me ?


----------



## Gweilo

Sometimes I wonder, if you just like to argue, go back to the beginning of the thread and read it again, you will have your answer, I'm going to watch the news.


----------



## Headhunter

Imo from what I've seen of systema I've seen a lot of breathing stuff and a lot of meditation and crawling on the floor but I've never actually seen any combat application. The few bits I have seen is aikido like stuff with compliant person summersaulting onto the floor after doing the slowest attack they can. That's just my opinion from what I've seen and that includes a class I watched. But hey I'm sure it's great for self help and relaxation and co-ordination but again I've yet to see any of the actual practical combat side of it


----------



## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Imo from what I've seen of systema I've seen a lot of breathing stuff and a lot of meditation and crawling on the floor but I've never actually seen any combat application. The few bits I have seen is aikido like stuff with compliant person summersaulting onto the floor after doing the slowest attack they can. That's just my opinion from what I've seen and that includes a class I watched. But hey I'm sure it's great for self help and relaxation and co-ordination but again I've yet to see any of the actual practical combat side of it



But at least you tried it, what some people do not understand is the principles of systema, are a process in order to get ourself to move and respond and breath in an efficient way, apart from the techniques to achieve this, there are no book of set techniques, like you will find in other arts. After mastering the basics, and the student is moving freely etc, it is down to them to use whatever techniques suit them, Systema does lend itself to Aikido very well, and there are a few teachers that come from an Aikido back ground, so when teaching newbies a teacher will use an Aikido approach to implement locks, knife strips etc, there are a couple of teachers from a FMA background, and you see evidence of this in their students. Systema is a training process, not a style, it teaches efficiency in natural movement, breath work, control of our emotions, situational awareness,  distance and timing, keep moving  and survival, the rest is down to the student once they fully understand and have mastered this concept.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> yes, because you learning to control your NS to control your breathing, or if you would like to put forward a different method for controlling your breathing , that DOESNT require you to first use your NS , I'd be fascinated, as I suspect would most of medical science


Basically, you're arguing that controlling your breathing isn't controlling your breathing, but using your NS to control your breathing. Semantics, at best. At best.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gweilo said:


> Sometimes I wonder, if you just like to argue, go back to the beginning of the thread and read it again, you will have your answer, I'm going to watch the news.


Oh, he definitely just likes to argue. I've seen him argue entirely opposite positions in different threads. It's quite amusing.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> Basically, you're arguing that controlling your breathing isn't controlling your breathing, but using your NS to control your breathing. Semantics, at best. At best.


no not at all,  a fundamental point that is in direct contradiction to what you said above, which was, your breathing controls you ns. this takes us down the line of magical thinking and takes us significantly away from the root of developing athletic performance, which is to focus on control of your ns


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> Oh, he definitely just likes to argue. I've seen him argue entirely opposite positions in different threads. It's quite amusing.


I have a different opinion on different days, some times the weight of the argument that's been given against my views sways me, some times I've done addition research and modified my view, some times I consider more deeply and switch it back again, having a fixed opinion is indicative of having a closed mind but facts are always facts, till there not, and that's science


----------



## Gweilo

jobo said:


> I have a different opinion on different days, some times the weight of the argument that's been given against my views sways me, some times I've done addition research and modified my view, some times I consider more deeply and switch it back again, having a fixed opinion is indicative of having a closed mind



I have taken a screen shot of that post, be prepared to see it in future posts.


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> I have taken a screen shot of that post, be prepared to see it in future posts.


err  I'm happily type it in the future, the humans race has made significant progress by changing the accepted opinion, as part of my personal development I'm happy to change mine, if additional evidence come to light, it the refusal to consider you may be wrong that leads to entrenched illogic statement like many you have made above


----------



## Gweilo

jobo said:


> err  I'm happily type it in the future, the humans race has made significant progress by changing the accepted opinion, as part of my personal development I'm happy to change mine, if additional evidence come to light, it the refusal to consider you may be wrong that leads to entrenched illogic statement like many you have made above



Some of my statements will seem illogical to those know everything.


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> Some of my statements will seem illogical to those know everything.


no there clearly illogical to any one who tasken even a few minetes to research the topic, take the one where you said you would die if you hold your breath, that gives a clear indecation n that you don't understand the respiratory system or its connection to the ns, logic should tell you if you're wrong on such a fundamental level, you many need to think again about some of the other conclusions your have blindly accepted from your instructor


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> no not at all,  a fundamental point that is in direct contradiction to what you said above, which was, your breathing controls you ns. this takes us down the line of magical thinking and takes us significantly away from the root of developing athletic performance, which is to focus on control of your ns


Breathing activates one part of the NS, which can override another part. The part you're activating gives you direct control of things the other removes direct control of.

So, yes, consciously controlling breathing does give you control of your NS.

But go ahead and argue. You'll still be wrong, but that never stops you.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> I have a different opinion on different days, some times the weight of the argument that's been given against my views sways me, some times I've done addition research and modified my view, some times I consider more deeply and switch it back again, having a fixed opinion is indicative of having a closed mind but facts are always facts, till there not, and that's science


No, it's not that, at all. You've staunchly defended positions, then days later taken pretty much the opposite position just as vehemently. Both times without really seeming to understand the argument.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> No, it's not that, at all. You've staunchly defended positions, then days later taken pretty much the opposite position just as vehemently. Both times without really seeming to understand the argument.


I'm always understand the argument, some times I change my mind, that is a very healthy thing to do, sometimes, having further considered the issue, I change it back again also healthy, gaining knowledge and understand MUST always be about changing your view, that is just it's purpose?

you seem to want a situation were once expressed your stuck with an opinion for ever. that's dictatorial and extremely unhealthy.t he problem on here and with you in particular is you don't seem able to discuss a topic wwith out launching adhom attacks, which is what this is !


----------



## Gweilo

jobo said:


> I'm always understand the argument, some times I change my mind, that is a very healthy thing to do, sometimes, having further considered the issue, I change it back again also healthy, gaining knowledge and understand MUST always be about changing your view, that is just it's purpose?
> 
> you seem to want a situation were once expressed your stuck with an opinion for ever. that's dictatorial and extremely unhealthy


 Is that like supporting Man utd,  until man city win the league, so now you support city?


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> Is that like supporting Man utd,  until man city win the league, so now you support city?


to be honest yes but not quite, I have in the last few seasons wanted both of them to win the league, I hated united when Ferguson was in charge, as really I hated Ferguson, then the became a united fan when the special one was in charge and then when he went moved to Liverpool last season, as. like klopp, this season its spurs


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> I'm always understand the argument, some times I change my mind, that is a very healthy thing to do, sometimes, having further considered the issue, I change it back again also healthy, gaining knowledge and understand MUST always be about changing your view, that is just it's purpose?
> 
> you seem to want a situation were once expressed your stuck with an opinion for ever. that's dictatorial and extremely unhealthy.t he problem on here and with you in particular is you don't seem able to discuss a topic wwith out launching adhom attacks, which is what this is !


No, what I'd like is some intellectual honesty.


----------



## Gweilo

jobo said:


> to be honest yes but not quite, I have in the last few seasons wanted both of them to win the league, I hated united when Ferguson was in charge, as really I hated Ferguson, then the became a united fan when the special one was in charge and then when he went moved to Liverpool last season, as. like klopp, this season its spurs


Keeping an open mind, debating, and being willing to change your mind, are very healthy things to do, to chop and change, then change back with your mood is not, as gpseymour says, some intellectual honesty is needed, lots of things you write are bob on, interesting, and correct, other things you write seem chaotic, we are all guilty of having a bad post, or responding to a post without thinking it through properly, but it's like forum bi-polar when you read your different posts.


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> Keeping an open mind, debating, and being willing to change your mind, are very healthy things to do, to chop and change, then change back with your mood is not, as gpseymour says, some intellectual honesty is needed, lots of things you write are bob on, interesting, and correct, other things you write seem chaotic, we are all guilty of having a bad post, or responding to a post without thinking it through properly, but it's like forum bi-polar when you read your different posts.


well that's possibly one interpretation, the truth is subtly different.

these are quite often complex concepts with significant shades of grey, sometimes I have the patience to dumb it down so that people like you can understand it, but as that requires the e!imination of the shades of grey, what I'm communicating becomes inaccurate, others I can't be bother pandering to the lowest common denominator, in which case your cognitive  function find it confusing, and rather than accept your handicap you lay the blame on the communicator


----------



## Gweilo

jobo said:


> I can't be bother pandering to the lowest common denominator, in which case your cognitive function find it confusing, and rather than accept your handicap you lay the blame on the communicator



It wasn't me asking for an explanation


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> It wasn't me asking for an explanation



QED
OR for you
I rest my case !!


----------



## Gweilo

Anyhow, a little while ago, I mentioned some ex UFC fighter and his mate a current IFC fighter did a anti Systema video on you 
Tube, asking for systema practitioners to stand up to the plate, and meet them, I agreed, a date was set, they cancelled,  it turns out they found another so say Systema practioner to meet with them, where they filmed it, and have produced the video on YouTube,  this other Systema bloke, has trained in the art, but proclaimed Systema does not have pressure testing sparring, or ground techniques, I guess he trains a different systema to me, but in the interest of fairness, here is the link to the video, can't believe they never rolled or sparred, which was the original argument.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> well yes and you told me I should do it, with no particular reason on why it may be beneficial



Apnea training is kind of a thing for athletic performance.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> Apnea training is kind of a thing for athletic performance.


well it a" thing" coz google says it is  ! but is it a " thing" because of its wide spread use by professional athletes other than swimmers and divers  google didn't seem to know

 I struggled to find a page from an aurthoritive source, such little science as I could glean, suggests that it noa deep breathing and holding your breathalike a diver for long periods, so much as emptying your lungs and doing very intense exercise for a very few seconds that's been shown to be effective, as it promotes the more efficient use of oxygen, like a very poor version of altitude training or indeed one of them altitude training masks,. that in its selfseems to run contrary to the use of breathy techniques in systema and other ma. and isn't at all what he suggested I should practise !

I try and maintain very slow and  shallow breathing durrinbg intense circuit training and hold my breath on the power element of the exercise, which is the exact opposite of the accepted wisdom of power on the exhale , for much the same reasons, that it promotes more blood oxygen and builds the anaerobic base, I didn't know that this was " apnea training " so now I'm better informed ?


I'd be interested to know if you've seen some actual science that's conclusive on its performance benefits and exactly what mnethord of apnea training they used


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> Anyhow, a little while ago, I mentioned some ex UFC fighter and his mate a current IFC fighter did a anti Systema video on you
> Tube, asking for systema practitioners to stand up to the plate, and meet them, I agreed, a date was set, they cancelled,  it turns out they found another so say Systema practioner to meet with them, where they filmed it, and have produced the video on YouTube,  this other Systema bloke, has trained in the art, but proclaimed Systema does not have pressure testing sparring, or ground techniques, I guess he trains a different systema to me, but in the interest of fairness, here is the link to the video, can't believe they never rolled or sparred, which was the original argument.


I watched that last night, I think they were more than fair, when meeting people face to face, as opposed to mocking them from a distance. they accepted everything the guy said without challenge, so unfortunately we learn nothing at all about the practical use of systema

the only ( subjective) measure used, was do systema s punches hurt and of course they do, do they hurt more or less than a more Orthodox punch,  we still don't know, is the systema technueqwue of shaking like a jelly when hit effective  ? no idea, they didn't even attempt to hit him.

as he was a you tuber, I think the cross population of views between channels was a major factor in this, rather than serious enquiry and as being humiliatedwould be a major hit on the profitability of either channel, there was a serious cash incentive not to actually have a fight, which is quite possibly why they declined to meet you ?


----------



## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> Anyhow, a little while ago, I mentioned some ex UFC fighter and his mate a current IFC fighter did a anti Systema video on you
> Tube, asking for systema practitioners to stand up to the plate, and meet them, I agreed, a date was set, they cancelled,  it turns out they found another so say Systema practioner to meet with them, where they filmed it, and have produced the video on YouTube,  this other Systema bloke, has trained in the art, but proclaimed Systema does not have pressure testing sparring, or ground techniques, I guess he trains a different systema to me, but in the interest of fairness, here is the link to the video, can't believe they never rolled or sparred, which was the original argument.



So can we see some video of Systema sparring?


----------



## Gweilo

drop bear said:


> So can we see some video of Systema sparring?


Most videos are done for showing training drills to students, but I will see if we can film some in the next couple of weeks, to place here, but it may take a couple of weeks, as it's holiday season, also 2nd sept to 15th sept, I am away spending 10 days trekking through the jungle in Borneo,  and then 7th to 13th Oct,  I will be in Toronto,  to train at Systema hq with Vladimir,  but will endeavour to get some done ASAP.


----------



## Brian King

Gweilo said:


> 2nd sept to 15th sept, I am away spending 10 days trekking through the jungle in Borneo, and then 7th to 13th Oct, I will be in Toronto, to train at Systema hq with Vladimir, but will endeavour to get some done ASAP


Safe travels. Enjoy Toronto Gweilo, it is a blast there.


----------



## Gweilo

Brian King said:


> Safe travels. Enjoy Toronto Gweilo, it is a blast there.


Thanks Brian King, yes I will, this will be my 3rd time.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Gweilo said:


> Anyhow, a little while ago, I mentioned some ex UFC fighter and his mate a current IFC fighter did a anti Systema video on you
> Tube, asking for systema practitioners to stand up to the plate, and meet them, I agreed, a date was set, they cancelled,  it turns out they found another so say Systema practioner to meet with them, where they filmed it, and have produced the video on YouTube,  this other Systema bloke, has trained in the art, but proclaimed Systema does not have pressure testing sparring, or ground techniques, I guess he trains a different systema to me, but in the interest of fairness, here is the link to the video, can't believe they never rolled or sparred, which was the original argument.


Good on those guys for keeping an open mind while working with the Systema guy, even without sparring.

I can't claim to have any great insight into Systema. I had a few practice sessions with some relatively beginner seminar students who were working to start a club in Dayton some years back. I've also watched a bunch of videos. I've done some on-and-off experimentation over the years on my own based on what I've seen.

My impressions from what I've seen are as follows:

They have some interesting body mechanics which could be useful in a variety of situations. In particular, they have some good relaxed power generation.

They seem to have a lot of practice devoted to just internalizing that relaxed movement and using it in an instinctive fashion, rather than drilling specific techniques.

I suspect sometimes some practitioners may get so caught up in those movement drills that they start confusing them with actual application. (Or a teacher who may know better may demonstrate techniques this way in order to impress students. I'm thinking in particular of Vladimir Vasiliev. He's clearly very skilled, but I've seen lots of footage of him demonstrating knife defenses which will absolutely get you killed if you try them.)

Systema has a distinctive flavor to the movement, but the concepts are not unique to the art. I've occasionally seen some similar demos in certain CMAs. I've seen a couple of MMA fighters mix in certain elements of the movement in their fights. (Don't think they got it from Systema, but you never know.) The technique the guy showed in the video of hitting with the shoulder off of a clinch is one I learned from a JKD/BJJ instructor 20 years ago and by coincidence my own coach used it on me during sparring last night.

For a one-on-one fight at range, I don't think Systema punching is overall as good as boxing punching. However it does offer some interesting options for working in the clinch. I played around with some Systema-style punching during sparring last night and was able to land some sneaky shots from close range.


----------



## drop bear

I don't see that style of punching as they described it being especially unique. 

I do what I call a trailing hook. That is kind of that action.


----------



## Gweilo

@Tony Dismukes , I agree, the relaxed movements and strikes are not unique to systema, but what some viewers do not understand is, when they see the drills, where a strike lands, it's not solely about absorbing the strike, it's twofold, absorbing and or narrowing the angle of impact, it's also about moving or using the whole body, to avoid, defend and attack, and I also agree with some of Vladimir's videos show some forms of knife defense, that will get people hurt if they tried them on someone who was half decent with a knife,and again the drill is twofold, trying to defend against the initial attack, knowing when to move rather than defend, but also, there is a side to Systema that trains the phyche,  the more you know how to use the knife, the better you become at detecting the movement of a knife attack in its earliest stages, but we could watch nearly every other art and point out potential flaws with some technique or other, My approach is take what's useful, and put it in the locker. Some of the training drills we do are about a feeling, we constantly scan our bodies for tension, trying to keep us as free moving as possible, and yes I think practioners do take the drills as a matter of literal technique,  when they should be looking for the shortest or most direct counter in a way that hides the strike, or from an angle that is difficult to defend, followed very quickly with a 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. Systema is no better than any other art out there, just different in its basic philosophy and application of training, and a large part of the training to develop the breathwork.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> Good on those guys for keeping an open mind while working with the Systema guy, even without sparring.
> 
> I can't claim to have any great insight into Systema. I had a few practice sessions with some relatively beginner seminar students who were working to start a club in Dayton some years back. I've also watched a bunch of videos. I've done some on-and-off experimentation over the years on my own based on what I've seen.
> 
> My impressions from what I've seen are as follows:
> 
> They have some interesting body mechanics which could be useful in a variety of situations. In particular, they have some good relaxed power generation.
> 
> They seem to have a lot of practice devoted to just internalizing that relaxed movement and using it in an instinctive fashion, rather than drilling specific techniques.
> 
> I suspect sometimes some practitioners may get so caught up in those movement drills that they start confusing them with actual application. (Or a teacher who may know better may demonstrate techniques this way in order to impress students. I'm thinking in particular of Vladimir Vasiliev. He's clearly very skilled, but I've seen lots of footage of him demonstrating knife defenses which will absolutely get you killed if you try them.)
> 
> Systema has a distinctive flavor to the movement, but the concepts are not unique to the art. I've occasionally seen some similar demos in certain CMAs. I've seen a couple of MMA fighters mix in certain elements of the movement in their fights. (Don't think they got it from Systema, but you never know.) The technique the guy showed in the video of hitting with the shoulder off of a clinch is one I learned from a JKD/BJJ instructor 20 years ago and by coincidence my own coach used it on me during sparring last night.
> 
> For a one-on-one fight at range, I don't think Systema punching is overall as good as boxing punching. However it does offer some interesting options for working in the clinch. I played around with some Systema-style punching during sparring last night and was able to land some sneaky shots from close range.


Good points, as usual. 

A lot of the commentary I see about Systema (especially your reactions here) ring of things I've either heard or said about Aikido/aiki arts. In both cases, I think the movement training is part of what differentiates that group. It's not really necessary (we could find faster ways to competency than training that relaxed movement), but it's an interesting approach. And folks in both camps sometimes get lost in the drills and very focused on them, rather than application. Which, I suppose, is fine if they're okay with departing from fight application (which some groups in Aikido are, and state that fight application isn't really the objective). And in both cases, I think there's a benefit beyond fight application (which I also see in folks who really get into the relaxed, patient approach in BJJ).

I suspect something that's not often said, but more often felt, is that folks just really like the movement approach (and, thus, the drills for it), because it feels good. They like learning to relax that tension, move fluidly, etc. And in many cases, I think folks are okay trading some efficiency of learning fight skills (taking longer to get to competence in some areas) for that. But I think folks are sometimes loathe to admit - because of marketing they've used or responded to - that it is a slower path to competence in fighting.


----------



## Gweilo

Its been a little while since posting here, but with Systema practices, I am learning a great deal more about myself, and how I react. What emotions control and dictate, my responses. Is Systema a great martial art, my answer would be not greater than other arts, for self defense practice, but I have a greater understanding of me, and how I work, with this, the Systema principles have given me a more efficient way of working, it seems to be the founding and commanding principle of my martial arts, approaching 50, other thing that never made sense, seem to fit in. My over riding thoughts at present are: speed through relaxation, efficeincy through movement, and stamina through breath and core strength, seem to be pivotal. People say that in a moment of crisiss, things seem to slow down, I find this almost true when observing movement and tension in other people, the tension in others, gives their intensions away, purely in their stance, and the tension in the parts of the body they intend to move. Its almost like having an insight to what your opponent is planning.


----------



## Gweilo

Throughout covid 19, even though online classes are helpful ,especially in linking movement with breath, I am missing the contact (literally) with others, My main thoughts are with pressure testing my skill and movement, may become for a better word rusty, this is the most enjoyable part of Systema for me, not just my progression, but becoming successful in movement, whilst helping others become successful in movement, without fellow students, I do feel limited.


----------



## Gweilo

This is my favourite quote by any martial artists ever
The goal of training is not acquiring many quick and fancy moves, but learning to control your own pride, irritation, fear, anger and self pity.
VV


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Gweilo said:


> The goal of training is not acquiring many quick and fancy moves, but learning to control your own pride, irritation, fear, anger and self pity.


I don't need that many reasons. I just need one reason and that is for "fun".

A: Dear master! When you are doing power generation, your hip rotate in a clockwise circle. Are you rotate your Dantian and send your Chi out?
B: A bee just landed on my hip and I tried to get ride of it.

Sometime the truth is much basic and simple.


----------



## Gweilo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't need that many reasons. I just need one reason and that is for "fun".
> 
> A: Dear master! When you are doing power generation, your hip rotate in a clockwise circle. Are you rotate your Dantian and send your Chi out?
> B: A bee just landed on my hip and I tried to get ride of it.
> 
> Sometime the truth is much basic and simple.



But if you cannot master YOU, all your technique, is regimented, your form is readable, your intension is clear, to quote a great Chinese ma, water always finds the best way, efficiency in movement, is far better than intension


----------



## Gweilo

Your movement through tension, makes your recipe fighting, very predictable, a does b does, your style looks nice, but put against modern training, your skill is limited, it cannot handle the likes of mma, krav maga, systema


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> Your movement through tension, makes your recipe fighting, very predictable, a does b does, your style looks nice, but put against modern training, your skill is limited, it cannot handle the likes of mma, krav maga, systema


im not sure id put those three all in the same bracket of proven effectiveness.

two of them are just as dodgy as any tma and all of them are dependent on the skill of the practitioner


----------



## Gweilo

Many a


jobo said:


> im not sure id put those three all in the same bracket of proven effectiveness.
> 
> two of them are just as dodgy as any tma and all of them are dependent on the skill of the practitioner



Welll many a person have told me, what I train is a waste of my time, then go and train their snake in eagles shadow form, and call my art bs, 2 are dodgy says the 60+ , which two?


----------



## Gweilo

jobo said:


> im not sure id put those three all in the same bracket of proven effectiveness.
> 
> two of them are just as dodgy as any tma and all of them are dependent on the skill of the practitioner



Seeing as you chose 2, my conclusion is you chose a sports style over military?


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> But if you cannot master YOU, all your technique, is regimented, your form is readable, your intension is clear, to quote a great Chinese ma, water always finds the best way, efficiency in movement, is far better than intension


Sounds very fortune cookiesh. Fighting doesn’t work like that. No readable form no clear intention based on mastering yourself....it sounds good in rubbish Kung fu movies but very little practicality when the crap hits the fan. Sure you can study all that there’s no harm to it from a learning perspective. But all your water and all your empty cups and your regimented techniques...that ain’t gonna mean much when I’m getting charged at by a 200 pound pissed off drunk guy


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Many a
> 
> 
> Welll many a person have told me, what I train is a waste of my time, then go and train their snake in eagles shadow form, and call my art bs, 2 are dodgy says the 60+ , which two?


No training is a waste of time, anything is better than sitting around doing nothing but that doesn’t mean all ways are helpful for a fighting situation. That’s not an insult I train stuff that I know will be pretty useless in a fight...I don’t care I’m a middle aged guy with 2 grown up kids...if I’m getting into Regular fights Then there’s something wrong with me. But I know the difference between what is effective and what isn’t. The problem arises when people think that the not so realistic stuff will actually help them. I’ve got stuff that I know would work for real and some I know that wouldn’t.


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> Seeing as you chose 2, my conclusion is you chose a sports style over military?


i didnt choose anything, i said one has proven effectiveness and two are dodgy, they self select really.even you where able to work out which was which from the clue


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Gweilo said:


> Your movement through tension, makes your recipe fighting, very predictable, a does b does, your style looks nice, but put against modern training, your skill is limited, it cannot handle the likes of mma, krav maga, systema


Plenty of people can fight incredibly well, without having "mastered the self".


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Gweilo said:


> The goal of training is not acquiring many quick and fancy moves, but learning to control your own pride, irritation, fear, anger and self pity.
> VV


That may be _your _goal of training. It's not everyone's. At one point it was a goal of mine to control my anger. I've since learned that it's better not to forcibly control anger; my goal now is simply to enjoy myself. Some people's goal is to lose weight. Some is to be able to brag to their buddies. Some to compete. There is no one goal.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Gweilo said:


> The goal of training is not acquiring many quick and fancy moves, but learning to control your own pride, irritation, fear, anger and self pity.


A: What's the purpose of your MA training?
B: My purpose is for self-cultivation, inner peace, culture exchange, be a better person, good against evil, world peace, future of the human being, ...
C: My purpose is to land my fist on my enemy's face.

I like C's simple answer better than B's fancy answer.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A: What's the purpose of your MA training?
> B: My purpose is for self-cultivation, inner peace, culture exchange, be a better person, good against evil, world peace, future of the human being, ...
> C: My purpose is to land my fist on my enemy's face.
> 
> I like C's simple answer better than B's fancy answer.


I tend to agree, but that’s irrelevant to B, who probably likes their answer better.


----------



## Gweilo

jobo said:


> i didnt choose anything, i said one has proven effectiveness and two are dodgy, they self select really.even you where able to work out which was which from the clue



In most military units, equipment, weaponary, is usually enough, I agree, but Krav maga in its original form, and systema, have been used by elite forces in real situations, but because this information is privvy, you choosevto ignore it.


----------



## Gweilo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A: What's the purpose of your MA training?
> B: My purpose is for self-cultivation, inner peace, culture exchange, be a better person, good against evil, world peace, future of the human being, ...
> C: My purpose is to land my fist on my enemy's face.
> 
> I like C's simple answer better than B's fancy answer.



Answers:
A health, strength, survival in any situation
B sounds like something a contestant in a miss world contest would say.
C just the face?


----------



## Gweilo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> At one point it was a goal of mine to control my anger. I've since learned that it's better not to forcibly control anger; my goal now is simply to enjoy myself.



Thats great, I also enjoy my training, but I control my anger, and direct it, rather than it dictating my response,


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Thats great, I also enjoy my training, but I control my anger, and direct it, rather than it dictating my response,


You sound like you are straight out of a Bruce lee movie


----------



## Gweilo

You sound like your from the tv series grumpy old men.


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> You sound like your from the tv series grumpy old men.


Lol I’m not grumpy at all in fact it’s amusing


----------



## Gweilo

Which bit do you find amusing?
Is it the bit about knowing yourself, the bit about using physics of motion, or just Systema, after all you tried it for a couple of hours, and decided it was of no use to you


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Which bit do you find amusing?
> Is it the bit about knowing yourself, the bit about using physics of motion, or just Systema, after all you tried it for a couple of hours, and decided it was of no use to you


Yep you’re right it is no use to me I tried it it bored me and no what’s amusing is when people say all this fortune cookie Bruce lee philosophy stuff....most of the times it’s a lot of words saying absolutely nothing which in reality doesn’t make a difference to actual fighting Me knowing about physics of motion ain’t doing me much good when an idiot is swinging at me in a bar. But as I say if that’s what you’re into then fair enough but in my experience fighting is not deep and philosophical and no internal flow or energy is going to help very much. But again not everyone’s in it for fighting some people like that stuff so fair enough each to their own


----------



## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Me knowing about physics of motion ain’t doing me much good when an idiot is swinging at me in a bar.



On the contray, an idiot swinging at you, would be the ideal time to understand the centre of their gravity within their support frame, it would make avoiding the vector easy, and once their mass is weight transfered, and the vector in motion, they will leave themselves off balance and open.


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> On the contray, an idiot swinging at you, would be the ideal time to understand the centre of their gravity within their support frame, it would make avoiding the vector easy, and once their mass is weight transfered, and the vector in motion, they will leave themselves off balance and open.


Lol...in a fight you haven’t got time to think about that theory stuff. When your fighting you’re not thinking about vectors and centre of gravity and weight transfer. You’re thinking about getting out there it’s not fight and think about a bunch of theory. Hey all that it sounds good in theory it sounds clever and thoughtful but it all goes out the window but the punches are actually coming. That’s why a lot of traditional martial artists lose. They spend all their time thinking about this theoretical stuff but not about how to actually fight. I’ve been there I’ve heard all this theoretical stuff for years how to cancel their depth and shift their perception and all of that good sounding stuff, but in the ring or in the street I’ve never considered it at all because you spend time thinking about all that that’s when you end up knocked out. Any fight I’ve been in I’ve done well but never because I knew about vectors and angles and weight distribution


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Gweilo said:


> On the contray, an idiot swinging at you, would be the ideal time to understand the centre of their gravity within their support frame, it would make avoiding the vector easy, and once their mass is weight transfered, and the vector in motion, they will leave themselves off balance and open.


I don't need to know physics to know _dude is rushing at me, let me get under him and throw him.
_
You are making martial arts sound a lot more complicated than they need to be.


----------



## Gweilo

Ive had plenty of fights and I know how it works, its not about thinking about it, its about recognising it within movement, and adapting with my movement, 


Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> let me get under him and throw him.


Why get under him?, 
use all that energy throwing him, why not just move out the way


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> On the contray, an idiot swinging at you, would be the ideal time to understand the centre of their gravity within their support frame, it would make avoiding the vector easy, and once their mass is weight transfered, and the vector in motion, they will leave themselves off balance and open.


it would be an ideal time to duck


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> In most military units, equipment, weaponary, is usually enough, I agree, but Krav maga in its original form, and systema, have been used by elite forces in real situations, but because this information is privvy, you choosevto ignore it.


im not particularly having ago at either systema of KM, just pointing that your point that they technical superior to say kung fu, or any other TMA is far from the truth

on the contrary ive seen systema and KM vids that are just as comic as the slight touch aikido or kung fu vids we all like to laugh at, yet i also know all of those CAN be effective in the right club and the right MA or the right elite military unit

it really doesnt matter what the SAS use, your going down

i suspect systema and KM are extremely effective if your 25 and an elite solderer, im less convinced that they are effective for fat old men, in quite the same way


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Gweilo said:


> On the contray, an idiot swinging at you, would be the ideal time to understand the centre of their gravity within their support frame, it would make avoiding the vector easy, and once their mass is weight transfered, and the vector in motion, they will leave themselves off balance and open.


If you draw a line between your opponent's feet, any attack that's vertical to that line can destroy his balance easily. This is just "common sense".

Do you need to understand the center of your opponent's gravity? All you need is just to check his feet position.


----------



## Headhunter

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I don't need to know physics to know _dude is rushing at me, let me get under him and throw him.
> _
> You are making martial arts sound a lot more complicated than they need to be.


Agreed and that’s the issue. People go on about fighting being a science....nonsense fighting is very simple you hit them until either they go down or you have a chance to escape there’s no science or maths or any of that, I’m an American kenpo guy so I know all about the theory side and hey yeah I enjoy it to a degree it’s fun finding patterns that relate to other stuff but I also know the category completion the height width and depth zones the angles of incidence....that stuff means nothing when I’m getting jumped and it’s all that that makes traditional arts have a bad rep


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> im not particularly having ago at either systema of KM, just pointing that your point that they technical superior to say kung fu, or any other TMA is far from the truth
> 
> on the contrary ive seen systema and KM vids that are just as comic as the slight touch aikido or kung fu vids we all like to laugh at, yet i also know all of those CAN be effective in the right club and the right MA or the right elite military unit
> 
> it really doesnt matter what the SAS use, your going down
> 
> i suspect systema and KM are extremely effective if your 25 and an elite solderer, im less convinced that they are effective for fat old men, in quite the same way



By definition.

But that is almost every martial art.

Exept boxing for some weird reason.


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Ive had plenty of fights and I know how it works, its not about thinking about it, its about recognising it within movement, and adapting with my movement,
> 
> Why get under him?,
> use all that energy throwing him, why not just move out the way


Again recognising within movement and adapting my movement....sounds good..sounds very zen and masterful...doesn’t work like that though. Street fights do not look pretty and clean they’re messy and sloppy. When I train I’ve got good kicks and pretty crisp punches but if I ever had to throw down I know it wouldn’t look anything like any technique drill or sparring match.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> By definition.
> 
> But that is almost every martial art.
> 
> Exept boxing for some weird reason.


which,, the fat old man bit, well yes and its a point ive made to you in the past, its of no value to invoke a top class athlete or an elite unit and say look this MA is effective because they do it ,unless you could get work as a body double for who ever your pointing at, even if that a body double for an ageing mike Tyson


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Gweilo said:


> Ive had plenty of fights and I know how it works, its not about thinking about it, its about recognising it within movement, and adapting with my movement,
> 
> Why get under him?,
> use all that energy throwing him, why not just move out the way


I'm using almost no energy throwing him. He's throwing himself, I'm just positioning myself to let him.

It would actually be more energy for me to dodge and move out of the way. But obviously which one I do depends on the situation, and how I react in the moment.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> which,, the fat old man bit, well yes and its a point ive made to you in the past, its of no value to invoke a top class athlete or an elite unit and say look this MA is effective because they do it ,unless you could get work as a body double for who ever your pointing at, even if that a body double for an ageing mike Tyson



And it is no value to invoke a fit person to show the value of a fitness routine.

You have to show fat average people.

Greubel's Mixed Martial Arts Testimonials — Greubel's MMA

Or Maby if the program works people become more than average.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> And it is no value to invoke a fit person to show the value of a fitness routine.
> 
> You have to show fat average people.


its of little value to invoke an Olympian track cyclist to show the value of popping down to the shops on your dutch bike with a wicker basket( are you listening Victoria pendleton)

seller of rubbish home gym equipment commonly have a slim muscly athlete to sell it, if you think your going to end up with even the remotest resemblance to them in appearance and performance your extremely gullible.

so no pointing at extremely fit people is not a good example of what can be achieved, by fat over weight middle aged people


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> its of little value to invoke an Olympian track cyclist to show the value of popping down to the shops on your dutch bike with a wicker basket( are you listening Victoria pendleton)
> 
> seller of rubbish home gym equipment commonly have a slim muscly athlete to sell it, if you think your going to end up with even the remotest resemblance to them in appearance and performance your extremely gullible.
> 
> so no pointing at extremely fit people is not a good example of what can be achieved, by fat over weight middle aged people



This is an example of courage gym in Townsville and my gym. 




 

This is what is achieved.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> This is an example of courage gym in Townsville and my gym.
> 
> View attachment 22889
> 
> This is what is achieved.


so where is the fat middle aged one that ended up looking like an elite athlete ? and if you can find one, you wont find many more, i know this as i am middle aged and was fat and five years of effort have made me look like a low level athlete, which is a result im pleased with to be honest, mostly coz there is not another 50/60 year old for miles that has done it, even then im not expecting a call from the SAS  or dana white


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> so where is the fat middle aged one that ended up looking like an elite athlete ? and if you can find one, you wont find many more, i know this as i am middle aged and was fat and five years of effort have made me look like a low level athlete, which is a result im pleased with to be honest, mostly coz there is not another 50/60 year old for miles that has done it, even then im not expecting a call from the SAS  or dana white



There are a few middle aged guys that look like athletes.





7 guys over 40 in that photo. A couple hitting 50.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> There are a few middle aged guys that look like athletes.
> 
> View attachment 22890
> 
> 7 guys over 40 in that photo. A couple hitting 50.


i though it was ELITE athletes of which we were talking about and more especially fat middle aged people that have achieved that

and which one are you saying looks like an athlete ? non of them are beach body ready, that fat one on the left really needs to hit the gym, the girl on the right is the most convincing, she does at least have some muscle tone in her arms


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> i though it was ELITE athletes of which we were talking about and more especially fat middle aged people that have achieved that
> 
> and which one are you saying looks like an athlete ? non of them are beach body ready, that fat one on the left really needs to hit the gym, the girl on the right is the most convincing, she does at least have some muscle tone in her arms



Well then there we go. Basically stuffs your idea that I am using elite athletes to make my point. 7 of those guys are active fighters.


----------



## Headhunter

drop bear said:


> Well then there we go. Basically stuffs your idea that I am using elite athletes to make my point. 7 of those guys are active fighters.


Being an active fighter doesn’t make you an elite athlete I’ve seen plenty of guys get in the ring who are anything but elite especially these days with all this white collar nonsense


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> Well then there we go. Basically stuffs your idea that I am using elite athletes to make my point. 7 of those guys are active fighters.


well they look like **** then, clearly not elite fighters, unless the MMA scene in Australia has gone down the tubes

your clearly confusing wearing sport wear with looking athletic, a mistake lots of over weight people make, non of them will get a gig selling sport equipment,, spend 500 dollars and you could look like this,,,, err no thanks


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> well they look like **** then, clearly not elite fighters, unless the MMA scene in Australia has gone down the tubes
> 
> your clearly confusing wearing sport wear with looking athletic, a mistake lots of over weight people make, non of them will get a gig selling sport equipment,, spend 500 dollars and you could look like this,,,, err no thanks



You are the one who has said that there is some sort of elitist joining policy.

Now you know there obviously isn't.

If it is any consolation if you went to a gym with top BJJ guys. They are generally pretty dweeby looking guys.

Half of them are not beach body ready either.

It is legitimately just normal guys. Which has been my consistent point.


----------



## drop bear

Headhunter said:


> Being an active fighter doesn’t make you an elite athlete I’ve seen plenty of guys get in the ring who are anything but elite especially these days with all this white collar nonsense



The white collar nonsense is a perfect example that good training is good for everyone.


----------



## Headhunter

drop bear said:


> The white collar nonsense is a perfect example that good training is good for everyone.


The last white collar I went to was pathetic. The fighters literally weighed In then all went to the bar to get drunk together...the day before the fight...it was embarrassing and the fights were just trash I could’ve gone out and seen better fights in a line for a taxi. Plus the fact that most of them are very poorly run with awful matchmaking and no background checks on experience or health issues.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> You are the one who has said that there is some sort of elitist joining policy.
> 
> Now you know there obviously isn't.
> 
> If it is any consolation if you went to a gym with top BJJ guys. They are generally pretty dweeby looking guys.
> 
> Half of them are not beach body ready either.
> 
> It is legitimately just normal guys. Which has been my consistent point.
> 
> View attachment 22891


, no what i clearly said is if you dont resemble an elite athlete you wont perform like an elite athlete, there is no choice in this matter,, what elite athletes look like changes from sport to sport, you have to train like an elite athlete to be one, if you train like one you end up looking like one,,, if you can

throwing up a group picture that looks like kicking out time at the over 50s lonely hearts club doesnt in anyway change that


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gweilo said:


> Ive had plenty of fights and I know how it works, its not about thinking about it, its about recognising it within movement, and adapting with my movement,
> 
> Why get under him?,
> use all that energy throwing him, why not just move out the way


If you just get out of the way, what will stop the attack?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> an elite solderer


Dude can splice wires like a sumbitch. 

Sorry, couldn’t help myself.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> If you just get out of the way, what will stop the attack?


The idea that when they transfer their weight and leave their vector in motion, they are off balance and open.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> If you just get out of the way, what will stop the attack?



If you did it indefinitely you would be undefeatable.

It is part of our gag corner routine we do. Where we will yell things like.

 move out of the way of his punches.

Or 

Just stand up.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> If you just get out of the way, what will stop the attack?


- Fall off a cliff.
- Fall into heavy traffic.
- Lost into the emptiness.
- ...


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> , no what i clearly said is if you dont resemble an elite athlete you wont perform like an elite athlete, there is no choice in this matter,, what elite athletes look like changes from sport to sport, you have to train like an elite athlete to be one, if you train like one you end up looking like one,,, if you can
> 
> throwing up a group picture that looks like kicking out time at the over 50s lonely hearts club doesnt in anyway change that



Tyson fury says different.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The idea that when they transfer their weight and leave their vector in motion, they are off balance and open.


I understand that. But if you're not going to do anything (the post I quoted was contrasting the energy used for throwing versus simply evading), the attack likely continues.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> If you did it indefinitely you would be undefeatable.
> 
> It is part of our gag corner routine we do. Where we will yell things like.
> 
> move out of the way of his punches.
> 
> Or
> 
> Just stand up.


What do you mean "would be"? I am undefeatable, damnit.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> I understand that. But if you're not going to do anything (the post I quoted was contrasting the energy used for throwing versus simply evading), the attack likely continues.


My post was just tongue in cheek about his, that somehow avoiding, through the power of physics, will topple them over. I agree-less energy is spent throwing with their momentum than evading over and over.


----------



## Gweilo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> My post was just tongue in cheek about his, that somehow avoiding, through the power of physics, will topple them over. I agree-less energy is spent throwing with their momentum than evading over and over.


 
No avoiding using efficeint moving, using physics to counter an opponent at their most vunerable point in the process of their movement, its an option we use, I agree sometimes the best answer is a good old smack in the face, its a tool, that we use, just because a TKD practioner talks in depth about a roundhouse, doesnt mean, they use a roundhouse exclusively, what I talk about is no different to Kung fu wangs paralell line quote, its a process that becomes 2nd nature, its a tool to be used when appropriate, its no different in the way its used, for example a lock or a throw, if its on, its on.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Gweilo said:


> No avoiding using efficeint moving, using physics to counter an opponent at their most vunerable point in the process of their movement, its an option we use, I agree sometimes the best answer is a good old smack in the face, its a tool, that we use, just because a TKD practioner talks in depth about a roundhouse, doesnt mean, they use a roundhouse exclusively, what I talk about is no different to Kung fu wangs paralell line quote, its a process that becomes 2nd nature, its a tool to be used when appropriate, its no different in the way its used, for example a lock or a throw, if its on, its on.


Unless I misunderstood, you seemed to suggest (in physics terms) that an opponent coming in with a hard swing will overextend themselves and trip over themselves when they swing, which makes avoiding and waiting for that trip the most efficient idea. 

My experience suggest that's not the case, since even if they come rushing in, when you dodge they'll redirect themselves. It's better to use their overcommittance in the moment, with a counter-cross/strike or a throw, rather than let them have the chance to rebalance themselves and realize I know what I'm doing. The idea is to overwhelm them before they realize you're an actual threat, so they act cautiously. And that concept isn't really related to physics, but more to human nature/psychology.


----------



## Gweilo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Unless I misunderstood, you seemed to suggest (in physics terms) that an opponent coming in with a hard swing will overextend themselves and trip over themselves when they swing,



That is not what I meant, in the coming at you swinging senario, in Systema we are continually moving, and try to be in time with our opponent, in this senario, if my feet are in time with the attacker, once they launch the strike, its intension and course are in motion, there is a point of no return, at this point there can be no feint, no redirection, in effect the strike is executed, at that point my objective to have avoided the strike, and counter as the transfer of mass is near complete, in this senario, the attacker is coming at me, so he must transfer his mass to the lead leg, my intension is to strikebthe lead leg just before touch down, be it the knee, the foot etc having the same effect as a trip, when off balance, the attackers brain has an automatic trigger or instinct to correct the inbalance of the body, whilst unbalanced leaves this attacker open to follow on attacks, also If my timing and distance work is correct, I can strike the attacker at the same point as I attack the touch down leg.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Gweilo said:


> That is not what I meant, in the coming at you swinging senario, in Systema we are continually moving, and try to be in time with our opponent, in this senario, if my feet are in time with the attacker, once they launch the strike, its intension and course are in motion, there is a point of no return, at this point there can be no feint, no redirection, in effect the strike is executed, at that point my objective to have avoided the strike, and counter as the transfer of mass is near complete, in this senario, the attacker is coming at me, so he must transfer his mass to the lead leg, my intension is to strikebthe lead leg just before touch down, be it the knee, the foot etc having the same effect as a trip, when off balance, the attackers brain has an automatic trigger or instinct to correct the inbalance of the body, whilst unbalanced leaves this attacker open to follow on attacks, also If my timing and distance work is correct, I can strike the attacker at the same point as I attack the touch down leg.


Okay, so if I understand you right, essentially what you're saying is: you wait until you are 100% certain they committed themselves to the strike, and then attack their lead leg to mess up their balance, at which point you can follow up with whatever you like to follow up with the most?

That works if you get the timing right, but personally I find it pretty difficulty to get that timing right. And while it works against the average bloke on the street, if it happens to be someone with experience, when they see you're not falling for their feint/they're counterattacking, they pull back. So theirs a chance it won't work, since you're giving them more time to react. Versus if you step in to them in order to strike or throw them, by the time they realize that you caught on to their attack, they're already punched/thrown. Since they don't have as much time to realize your action and adjust accordingly.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Okay, so if I understand you right, essentially what you're saying is: you wait until you are 100% certain they committed themselves to the strike, and then attack their lead leg to mess up their balance, at which point you can follow up with whatever you like to follow up with the most?
> 
> That works if you get the timing right, but personally I find it pretty difficulty to get that timing right. And while it works against the average bloke on the street, if it happens to be someone with experience, when they see you're not falling for their feint/they're counterattacking, they pull back. So theirs a chance it won't work, since you're giving them more time to react. Versus if you step in to them in order to strike or throw them, by the time they realize that you caught on to their attack, they're already punched/thrown. Since they don't have as much time to realize your action and adjust accordingly.


What I'm saying here is essentially the difference between "dodge parrying" by backing up and then going in to strike, versus trying to beat them on the initial strike. IMO dodge parrying just gives them a chance to flow into something you're not expecting, and is really something to be used more when you're taken by surprise, to plan your next move.


----------



## Gweilo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What I'm saying here is essentially the difference between "dodge parrying" by backing up and then going in to strike, versus trying to beat them on the initial strike. IMO dodge parrying just gives them a chance to flow into something you're not expecting, and is really something to be used more when you're taken by surprise, to plan your next move.



I have these otions too, systema is purely defensive, so our drills are counter attack, having done 2 other arts, there are times I revert to parrying and other techniques from Hapkido, sometimes its seamless, sometimes awkward.
I have no loyalty to any art, but, there are some really useful, parts to Systema for me, especially the strength, flexibility, and mental conditioning.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Gweilo said:


> That is not what I meant, in the coming at you swinging senario, in Systema we are continually moving, and try to be in time with our opponent, in this senario, if my feet are in time with the attacker, once they launch the strike, its intension and course are in motion, there is a point of no return, at this point there can be no feint, no redirection, in effect the strike is executed, at that point my objective to have avoided the strike, and counter as the transfer of mass is near complete, in this senario, the attacker is coming at me, so he must transfer his mass to the lead leg, my intension is to strikebthe lead leg just before touch down, be it the knee, the foot etc having the same effect as a trip, when off balance, the attackers brain has an automatic trigger or instinct to correct the inbalance of the body, whilst unbalanced leaves this attacker open to follow on attacks, also If my timing and distance work is correct, I can strike the attacker at the same point as I attack the touch down leg.


That’s a concept found in many systems. It’s more pronounced in Systema and the aiki arts, but not at all unique to them. I’ve seen it discussed in boxing, Judo, MMA, BJJ, and Tang Soo Do, as well.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> Tyson fury says different.View attachment 22892


 thats tyson in his fat phase its not really a good example, the other guy is ricky hatton who didn't look like that when he was fighting for world championships


----------



## jobo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What I'm saying here is essentially the difference between "dodge parrying" by backing up and then going in to strike, versus trying to beat them on the initial strike. IMO dodge parrying just gives them a chance to flow into something you're not expecting, and is really something to be used more when you're taken by surprise, to plan your next move.


 theres a level of art specific perspective here, if your art has you planted then moving isnt easy or efficient, if your of a school of its hard to hit a moving target then you just dont stand still, moving isnt more energy consuming coz its what your doing anyway

as to when to strike that depends on context, just keep moving out of range till they tire. throwing big punches that miss consumes a lot of energy, with any luck they will realise they look stupid and leave

personalty if its a hay maker id sooner be out of range than try and parry, beat them time wise, mess it up and get hit,,, its easy to walk into the follow up punch if you go in for a throw

if on the other hand they have annoyed you, attack them,, smack them,throw then on the ground jumped on them,, what ever, if you get hit , so what its fighting


----------



## Gweilo

gpseymour said:


> That’s a concept found in many systems. It’s more pronounced in Systema and the aiki arts, but not at all unique to them. I’ve seen it discussed in boxing, Judo, MMA, BJJ, and Tang Soo Do, as well.



Never said it was unique too, I said in Systema we....
Just like to over complicate it when Head hunter comes a calling, it seems to rattle his cage, then he's off on one, making all kinds of assumptions generally being grumpy.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> thats tyson in his fat phase its not really a good example, the other guy is ricky hatton who didn't look like that when he was fighting for world championships



Fedor.

Combat sports are literally full of dad bods


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Never said it was unique too, I said in Systema we....
> Just like to over complicate it when Head hunter comes a calling, it seems to rattle his cage, then he's off on one, making all kinds of assumptions generally being grumpy.


Lol I’m not grumpy at all you just seem to assume that because I disagree with you


----------



## Buka

jobo said:


> thats tyson in his fat phase its not really a good example, the other guy is ricky hatton who didn't look like that when he was fighting for world championships



When Ricky Hatton was coming up he was a beast. So much fun to watch his fights. We used to gather in front of the TV and watch Hatton all the time.


----------



## Buka

drop bear said:


> This is an example of courage gym in Townsville and my gym.
> 
> View attachment 22889
> 
> This is what is achieved.



Love it. I've always found it odd that people couldn't get fit while training Martial Arts or fighting.

One of the things I always promised my students was "You might lose to a better fighter, but I promise you won't lose to somebody in better shape than you."


----------



## Gweilo

Buka said:


> When Ricky Hatton was coming up he was a beast. So much fun to watch his fights. We used to gather in front of the TV and watch Hatton all the time.



I used to get up at 2am to watch some of Hattons US fights, they were almost as exciting as mike Tysons fights, before he came off the rails.


----------



## Gweilo

Movement is key, and not just basic movement, it controlling individual parts at will, it is almost like break dancing of the early 80's, each move flows to the next, the following video from a Russian instructor sort of makes my point, physics, thec45 degree angle, distance and timing, along with movement, it is a Russian video so appologies for the communist sound track, but some of the movement, in ordervto deflect, or position to counter.


----------



## Gweilo

Even in Russian, angles, physics, and mass are clear


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> Even in Russian, angles, physics, and mass are clear


i had a Russian motor bike BRIEFLY
they used angles, physics and mass in that as well, it wasn't however very good at all.

perhaps not all angles physics ans mass are equal ?


----------



## Gweilo

jobo said:


> i had a Russian motor bike BRIEFLY
> they used angles, physics and mass in that as well, it wasn't however very good at all.
> 
> perhaps not all angles physics ans mass are equal ?



I agree


----------



## Gweilo

Do you fancy blowing up a petrol station?


----------



## _Simon_

Gweilo said:


> Movement is key, and not just basic movement, it controlling individual parts at will, it is almost like break dancing of the early 80's, each move flows to the next, the following video from a Russian instructor sort of makes my point, physics, thec45 degree angle, distance and timing, along with movement, it is a Russian video so appologies for the communist sound track, but some of the movement, in ordervto deflect, or position to counter.


Really cool, I love how fluid and unmechanical it is. Would love to explore this sort of movement in a martial arts context.

And oh the music made it great XD


----------



## Gweilo

_Simon_ said:


> Really cool, I love how fluid and unmechanical it is. Would love to explore this sort of movement in a martial arts context.
> 
> And oh the music made it great XD



Is systema not available where you are, if not I will put some videos up on the basics, the free movement comes from dropping tension in the parts of the body, where its not required, a rather random explination would be, can you sit up as fast when consious, as oppossed to when you have a nightmare, the answer would be no, because your body moves far faster and better when you are relaxed, with learning to use parts of the body independantly, i.e moving the fist and shoulder in unconnected movement, like patting your head whilst rubbing your stomach at the same time, or rotating your left arm clockwise, whilst rotating your right anti clockwise, with the 1st finger pointing towards each other, at first it seems difficult, but after time, it becomes 2nd nature.


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Is systema not available where you are, if not I will put some videos up on the basics, the free movement comes from dropping tension in the parts of the body, where its not required, a rather random explination would be, can you sit up as fast when consious, as oppossed to when you have a nightmare, the answer would be no, because your body moves far faster and better when you are relaxed, with learning to use parts of the body independantly, i.e moving the fist and shoulder in unconnected movement, like patting your head whilst rubbing your stomach at the same time, or rotating your left arm clockwise, whilst rotating your right anti clockwise, with the 1st finger pointing towards each other, at first it seems difficult, but after time, it becomes 2nd nature.


That’s my main issue with what I’ve seen with systema....you’re never going to be relaxed with no tension in a real fight...I don’t care who you are or how zen you are. You will always be full of adrenaline and fear in a real situation which is hard to control especially if you don’t prepare for it. I mean it’s a great think for self help and relaxation and to get rid of stress no arguments about that. But when you are in an alley and a pissed off drunk or high guy comes at you screaming and throwing insults and swearing then starts swinging at you I 100% guarantee you will not relaxed and loose So yes you can train in the gym about to relax and flow that’s great I practice like that at times but in a real situation your body is not going to stay like. The biology doesn’t Work like that. Again I’m not criticising it as a form of self health but any systema guy I see moving...I just don’t see it working that way. Maybe I’m wrong but I’ve never seen a single fight won like that.

I know there’s guys in the ring who are loose...Ali, Anderson silva etc and yeah but the difference is those guys have had 8 week training camps focusing on that one opponent. They know what’s going to happen, they know they’re going to fight. They have time to get the sparring in and be in the perfect health for it.

but in the street. There’s no training camp no preparation no time to warm up and get loose. Usually thr first thing you know is some angry guy in your face screaming at you or attacking or pulling a weapon on you and that’s where the looseness won’t work. You will not be relaxed you will be scared and tense because you’re not expecting it.

also please know I mean no disrespect these are just my personal opinions. I very much could be wrong And I am always willing to be proved wrong and I am not hating on what you are doing. You do what’s good for you at least you’re out there practicing and doing something and I respect anyone for that no matter what they train and whatever my thoughts on it are. I have my ways you have yours. There’s no right or wrong to it it’s preference. I prefer harder resistance stuff but that’s me...I’m not a loose guy I mean I could probably do with relaxation stuff not just for MA but just life in general and hey if there was a place doing free classes in my area maybe I would spend some time trying but as it is it’s just not something I’m willing to pay money to do. No hate on it. It’s what you like and you have your right to like it. My post is not meant to trash talk what you do just sharing an opinion and willing to have a friendly discussion on the matter


----------



## _Simon_

Gweilo said:


> Is systema not available where you are, if not I will put some videos up on the basics, the free movement comes from dropping tension in the parts of the body, where its not required, a rather random explination would be, can you sit up as fast when consious, as oppossed to when you have a nightmare, the answer would be no, because your body moves far faster and better when you are relaxed, with learning to use parts of the body independantly, i.e moving the fist and shoulder in unconnected movement, like patting your head whilst rubbing your stomach at the same time, or rotating your left arm clockwise, whilst rotating your right anti clockwise, with the 1st finger pointing towards each other, at first it seems difficult, but after time, it becomes 2nd nature.



Nah the closest is an hour away, but I'm more into other arts, but I do find Systema's training methodology fascinating for sure. Ah thanks!


----------



## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> .I don’t care who you are or how zen you are. You will always be full of adrenaline and fear in a real situation which is hard to control especially if you don’t prepare for it



This may be your opinion, but it is easier than you think, but not easy, if that makes sence. Top athletes do it, former world/olympic champion, and multi world record holder Micheal Johnson has an elite school, which breaks the race down into phases, knowing when to apply power in motion, and when to relax etc. Elite military units do it, being more relaxed means you do not stop, mentally and phyically.


Headhunter said:


> But when you are in an alley and a pissed off drunk or high guy comes at you


As a trained martial artist, I am suprised you fear such a senario, someone coming at you in a confined space, whos equilibrium is probably shot, who cannot think clearly or calmly, and in a confined space, and you question my training, the same with your comment about someone getting up close to your face and shouting, why would you let them get that close?  It sounds as if your beleif in your ability, to deal with high pressure situations makes you stop, it sounds like you stop moving, and start panicking.


Headhunter said:


> I know there’s guys in the ring who are loose...Ali, Anderson silva etc and yeah but the difference is those guys have had 8 week training camps focusing on that one opponent. They know what’s going to happen, they know they’re going to fight.


Your quote here is in line with your thinking, in mma you train for a specific opponent, a fighter or his team would have studied their opponent, and pretty much tailor the training for that fight, as you put it, when the events are a surprise, or unpredictable, sometimes superior speed, strength, technique is not appropriate or useful, and the only way to combat that, is with adaptive fluid movement, and that cannot happen when you are full of tension, try a roundhouse kick when all your leg muscles are tensed. Most fights that I have had on the streets, do tend to happen when alcohol and young men mix, most of my fights I won with very little ma skill, move out of the way, or block/parry an incoming strike, and a couple of good smacks job done.
 I welcome your questions/points of view on systema, it does not fit totally with other arts, but has similarities to other arts, the hardest thing for me,nwas fully understanding and experiencing the no tension part, of course no tension does not mean all floppy, it means having the tension only when and where needed, but when I experienced it, sporradically at first, it was a lightbulb moment for me, through training, understanding what and where tension was in my body, how I felt inside, it takes time, but as with other skills, you can see tension in others, and being fluid in motion helps to adapt and counter. In training we are always testing through applying stress, be it a push up, sparring for play or pressure testing, but not for added resitance, but to see where tension is occuring, and releasing it, this helps us spot tension in opponents, which does 2 things, it can reveal the intended strike at its earliest stages, or it gives us a target to counterattack, with fluid movement, and our strikes discuised in our movement, makes defending our counterattacks very difficult to respond to.


----------



## Gweilo

In a recent zoom class, a question was asked of our head instructor and former Russian special forces operative Vladamir Vasiliev, and thought I would share his answer.

The question was, *'Without belts and competitions, how do we measure our progress in Systema?'*

Systema is very broad in scope. As its name suggests it is a Systemic approach to self actualisation, to _*'know thyself' *_

Vladimir's answer was typically insightful:

_There are several measures..._

_You should start notice that you are becoming more relaxed in various situations._

_You should notice yourself becoming more good natured._

_More positive._

_On a physical level you should be starting to move more easily._

_People in their 50's and 60's often comment that they can move better than they did in their 20's._

_Not just because they are fitter, but because their understanding of movement itself is improving.
They finally start to realise how the body should function:
When you walk.

When you sit down or stand up.

When you are surprised.

When you are hurt.

When you have to do something that you don't want to do.

When you are confronted with your own stress or emotional response to a situation.



We can all act well or badly in these situations and Systema builds your acuity and sensitivity to your actions and responses and shares the tools to improve.


How to move from relaxation.

How to get out of your own way.

You can move lightly, softly even with injury.

You also become more intuitive and sensitive.

You listen and communicate differently.

One example is that when listening to headphones you relax and allow the sound into your body.

When talking with someone you sense when you are at the correct distance that they can optimally 'receive' what you are saying. You don't dominate.



The beauty of Systema is that you can measure your progress and continue your training in almost any moment.

In your interactions with others.

Just to remind, we do spar to pressure test.
_


----------



## Gweilo

Who would take on the fat bloke lol


----------



## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> In a recent zoom class, a question was asked of our head instructor and former Russian special forces operative Vladamir Vasiliev, and thought I would share his answer.
> 
> The question was, *'Without belts and competitions, how do we measure our progress in Systema?'*
> 
> Systema is very broad in scope. As its name suggests it is a Systemic approach to self actualisation, to _*'know thyself' *_
> 
> Vladimir's answer was typically insightful:
> 
> _There are several measures..._
> 
> _You should start notice that you are becoming more relaxed in various situations._
> 
> _You should notice yourself becoming more good natured._
> 
> _More positive._
> 
> _On a physical level you should be starting to move more easily._
> 
> _People in their 50's and 60's often comment that they can move better than they did in their 20's._
> 
> _Not just because they are fitter, but because their understanding of movement itself is improving.
> They finally start to realise how the body should function:
> When you walk.
> 
> When you sit down or stand up.
> 
> When you are surprised.
> 
> When you are hurt.
> 
> When you have to do something that you don't want to do.
> 
> When you are confronted with your own stress or emotional response to a situation.
> 
> 
> 
> We can all act well or badly in these situations and Systema builds your acuity and sensitivity to your actions and responses and shares the tools to improve.
> 
> 
> How to move from relaxation.
> 
> How to get out of your own way.
> 
> You can move lightly, softly even with injury.
> 
> You also become more intuitive and sensitive.
> 
> You listen and communicate differently.
> 
> One example is that when listening to headphones you relax and allow the sound into your body.
> 
> When talking with someone you sense when you are at the correct distance that they can optimally 'receive' what you are saying. You don't dominate.
> 
> 
> 
> The beauty of Systema is that you can measure your progress and continue your training in almost any moment.
> 
> In your interactions with others.
> 
> Just to remind, we do spar to pressure test._



Is there any video of sparring?


----------



## Gweilo

In systema, sparring is closed door, it is filmed, but needs everyones approval to publish, most videos are for training purposes, we have no competition or sports element,  in your world, your teacher fought in a ring, my teacher fought in wars or hostage recovery situations, or counter terroism situations, both real to an extent, so what water divining, results based, completely left field, unrelated tosh, are you about to post now?


----------



## Gweilo

Deleted post, as misread your reply


----------



## Gweilo

drop bear said:


> Is there any video of sparring?


No, but willing to share my knowledge with you,mif we meet later this year


----------



## Steve

Gweilo said:


> In systema, sparring is closed door, it is filmed, but needs everyones approval to publish, most videos are for training purposes, we have no competition or sports element,  in your world, your teacher fought in a ring, my teacher fought in wars or hostage recovery situations, or counter terroism situations, both real to an extent, so what water divining, results based, completely left field, unrelated tosh, are you about to post now?


I think the water divining analogy would be that, in Drop Bear's world, his instructor fought in a ring, and Drop Bear can also fight in a ring, along with most or all of his training partners.  In your world, your instructor did some things you'll never do.  

So, in Drop Bear's world, his instructor is passing along skills combined with the benefits of his experience.  Drop Bear can develop learn the skills while also accumulating his own experience in context.  You aren't learning to fight in a war or become a hostage negotiator, or a counter terrorism operative.  Regardless of what your instructor has done, what are you learning to do?  I 

Disclaimer: The above statement is common sense. It is obvious to


----------



## Steve

Gweilo said:


> No, but willing to share my knowledge with you,mif we meet later this year


You okay, big guy?  You're responding to the same post multiple times.


----------



## Gweilo

Steve said:


> I think the water divining analogy would be that, in Drop Bear's world, his instructor fought in a ring, and so can Drop Bear.  In your world, your instructor did some things you'll never do.  So, in Drop Bear's world, his instructor is passing along skills combined which Drop Bear can develop while accumulating his own experience in context.  You aren't learning to fight in a war or become a hostage negotiator, or a counter terrorism operative.  Regardless of what your instructor has done, what are you learning to do?  I
> 
> Disclaimer: The above statement is common sense. It is obvious to


I can agree with your statement, just been debating with DB far longer, yes its true, not fighting in a war, and I do revert to a more aggresive pattern, which shows I still have a lot to learn, with regards to systema, there is a lot db states has real merit, but more often than not his ? Is followed by a random video of a boy scout tying his toggle, that somehow relatesvto wrist locks.


----------



## Gweilo

Steve said:


> You okay, big guy?  You're responding to the same post multiple times.


A side effect of debating with Db, sorry


----------



## Gweilo

By the way thats not me in the video


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> In systema, sparring is closed door, it is filmed, but needs everyones approval to publish, most videos are for training purposes, we have no competition or sports element,  in your world, your teacher fought in a ring, my teacher fought in wars or hostage recovery situations, or counter terroism situations, both real to an extent, so what water divining, results based, completely left field, unrelated tosh, are you about to post now?


Fighting in wars doesn’t automatically make you a good fighter...yes being a soldier is a very brave and noble and tough thing to do and I take nothing away from it and yes some qualities of a soldier absolutely transfer over to fighting. Hard work, determination, aggression, strength and fitness. But I’ve spoken to numerous people who have served in the army and you get taught very little hand to hand combat as well you’ve got a gun and so does the opposition.

it’s like when boxers or MMA fighters come out and say I’m going to win because I was a soldier....well no not really....I mean yeah they’re tough as nails but it doesn’t mean they’re better at unarmed hand to hand combat than anyone else who trains regularly.


----------



## Gweilo

Steve said:


> what are you learning to do? I



Today I learnt, (many thanks, steve), not to let someone get under my skin, even virtually.


----------



## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Fighting in wars doesn’t automatically make you a good fighter...yes being a soldier is a very brave and noble and tough thing to do and I take nothing away from it and yes some qualities of a soldier absolutely transfer over to fighting. Hard work, determination, aggression, strength and fitness. But I’ve spoken to numerous people who have served in the army and you get taught very little hand to hand combat as well you’ve got a gun and so does the opposition.
> 
> it’s like when boxers or MMA fighters come out and say I’m going to win because I was a soldier....well no not really....I mean yeah they’re tough as nails but it doesn’t mean they’re better at unarmed hand to hand combat than anyone else who trains regularly.



Agree, but what I am trying to learn, is composure in high pressure situations, clearly, I have further to go


----------



## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Fighting in wars doesn’t automatically make you a good fighter...yes being a soldier is a very brave and noble and tough thing to do and I take nothing away from it and yes some qualities of a soldier absolutely transfer over to fighting. Hard work, determination, aggression, strength and fitness. But I’ve spoken to numerous people who have served in the army and you get taught very little hand to hand combat as well you’ve got a gun and so does the opposition.
> 
> it’s like when boxers or MMA fighters come out and say I’m going to win because I was a soldier....well no not really....I mean yeah they’re tough as nails but it doesn’t mean they’re better at unarmed hand to hand combat than anyone else who trains regularly.


Just to add, always been pretty good at fighting, keeping in control, was, as still occassionaly, my problem


----------



## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> In systema, sparring is closed door, it is filmed, but needs everyones approval to publish, most videos are for training purposes, we have no competition or sports element,  in your world, your teacher fought in a ring, my teacher fought in wars or hostage recovery situations, or counter terroism situations, both real to an extent, so what water divining, results based, completely left field, unrelated tosh, are you about to post now?



My teachers coach fought in Timor. His coach killed a man with his bare hands in Afghanistan.

I get the impression this meet up us going to turn in to a Charlie Zelenof thing. You keep saying friendly but then keep turning nasty.

Anyway obligatory video of proof of my claims.





And a side note to say being a war hero doesn't necessarily make you a top instructor. But if we are going to try to go down that route.


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Just to add, always been pretty good at fighting, keeping in control, was, as still occassionaly, my problem


Okay...don’t really know the relevance of you telling me how good you are is to my comment....end of the day you want to be as relaxed as you can be in a fight (as said before you will never be fully relaxed) then you need to be comfortable getting hit and that means taking punches and having hard shots thrown at you whether that’s sparring or drills doesn’t really matter but you need to feel a real or at very least one with decent power to it coming at you so you know you can stop it and frankly this is just from what I’ve seen from systema I’ve never seen a REAL attack thrown In a systema drill..I’ve seen some very pitiful knife attacks where the partner Goes in with the knife with less speed and power than I use buttering toast then went full Steven segal and flipped to the floor by getting his wrist touched....not saying everywhere is like that but any school or videos I’ve seen all they take about is their breathing or their flow....I’ve never seen any actual drills or self defence taught just some yoga poses. Which hey nothing wrong with that. Again this isn’t me blindly hating this is what I’ve seen both in videos, training with people who do systema and going to seminars and classes. None of those people have changed my mind yet that’s all I’m saying


----------



## Gweilo

drop bear said:


> I get the impression this meet up us going to turn in to a Charlie Zelenof thing. You keep saying friendly but then keep turning nasty.


It will only get nasty, if you do, I admit the fact that some conversation can get heated, a little, for that I appologise, but we do seem to go around in circles.
If we are able to meet, I intend 2 things, 1 to learn what I can from you, and give you something in return, thats all I am interested in.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

*REMINDER TO ALL MEMBERS:*

Challenges are prohibited in the forum guidelines. Steer clear. 

*Gerry Seymour*
MartialTalk Moderator
@gpseymour


----------



## Gweilo

gpseymour said:


> *REMINDER TO ALL MEMBERS:*
> 
> Challenges are prohibited in the forum guidelines. Steer clear.
> 
> *Gerry Seymour*
> MartialTalk Moderator
> @gpseymour



It wasnt a challenge.


----------



## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> It wasnt a challenge.


Sounded like it to me.....and obviously did to the mods to


----------



## Brian King

@Gweilo
one of the things I have learned, perhaps you have also played with this, especially during multiple opponent fast drills is the absence of the need to address or defend yourself against every attack. Some attacks are hitting air missing you by an inch or more!  Some lack weapons or power, some you can simply avoid by the attacking/defending of a different more important opportunity and letting that movement resolve the other attack/conflict. Perhaps like me, have you noticed the freedom to better see these opportunities more clearly when our view of the attack is neutral and not taken as attack against self and ego?  Which do you think might be more important in the midst of that sort of opportunity- relaxing the tension in our eyes or perhaps taking the time for a nice cleansing inhale and exhale?

I am enjoying your thread and hope that you are as well. 
Warmest Regards
Brian King


----------



## Gweilo

Brian King said:


> @Gweilo
> one of the things I have learned, perhaps you have also played with this, especially during multiple opponent fast drills is the absence of the need to address or defend yourself against every attack. Some attacks are hitting air missing you by an inch or more!  Some lack weapons or power, some you can simply avoid by the attacking/defending of a different more important opportunity and letting that movement resolve the other attack/conflict. Perhaps like me, have you noticed the freedom to better see these opportunities more clearly when our view of the attack is neutral and not taken as attack against self and ego?  Which do you think might be more important in the midst of that sort of opportunity- relaxing the tension in our eyes or perhaps taking the time for a nice cleansing inhale and exhale?
> 
> I am enjoying your thread and hope



Hi Brian, for me the breath, my movement it linked but not dictated by my breathe, and without the breathing, relaxation is difficult.
I do enjoy multiple opponent fast drills, and agree with letting others waste their energy, by helping them miss the intended target, I really am missing training with others, been doing a lot of core strength training, ground flow, and some fantastic long breath walks in the woods with the dogs, The other thing I miss is sensitivity training, very much looking forward to a class of 25, blindfolded, on the floor, avoiding or defending contact, perhaps thats why I am keen on sparring with Drop bear, I miss the contact with others, but yes I am well thank you.


----------



## drop bear

Brian King said:


> @Gweilo
> one of the things I have learned, perhaps you have also played with this, especially during multiple opponent fast drills is the absence of the need to address or defend yourself against every attack. Some attacks are hitting air missing you by an inch or more!  Some lack weapons or power, some you can simply avoid by the attacking/defending of a different more important opportunity and letting that movement resolve the other attack/conflict. Perhaps like me, have you noticed the freedom to better see these opportunities more clearly when our view of the attack is neutral and not taken as attack against self and ego?  Which do you think might be more important in the midst of that sort of opportunity- relaxing the tension in our eyes or perhaps taking the time for a nice cleansing inhale and exhale?
> 
> I am enjoying your thread and hope that you are as well.
> Warmest Regards
> Brian King



Technically you should be doing that anyway.

It is one of the things that dramatically  changed my training is that I can't see punches coming at me at speed.

I had to develop a method to reduce the effective punches that I faced.


----------



## Gweilo

Just found this.


----------



## Gweilo

drop bear said:


> Technically you should be doing that anyway.
> 
> It is one of the things that dramatically  changed my training is that I can't see punches coming at me at speed.
> 
> I had to develop a method to reduce the effective punches that I faced.


Is your method movement


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## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> Is your method movement



Movement is not really a method. Because it doesn't explain anything. 

Yes I move. Yes i avoid punches kicks and takedown where I can. But that is hardly helpful to anyone. Because everyone is basically trying to do that. That is what fighting basically is.


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## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> Is your method movement



But this is the guy I am attempting to emulate.






And he cuts preemptive angles all the time which reduces the amount of effective striking against him without having to see every punch. 

So footwork handles some. Good guard handles some and I consiously handle the rest.


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## Gweilo

I agree footwork is paramount, but what about controlling your opponents footwork, whilst having your footwork, ,in time with your opponents, his left touches down, your left touches down, with biomechanics, or the understanding of, do you not agree, if you are in time with your opponent, reading them is easier


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## Gweilo

Sorry forgot the random video


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## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> I agree footwork is paramount, but what about controlling your opponents footwork, whilst having your footwork, ,in time with your opponents, his left touches down, your left touches down, with biomechanics, or the understanding of, do you not agree, if you are in time with your opponent, reading them is easier


Doesn’t work like that in real combat.


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## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Doesn’t work like that in real combat.


And how much real combat, have you had?


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## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> And how much real combat, have you had?


Plenty, in both the ring (point karate, boxing, kickboxing/Muay Thai and MMA) and working as a doorman both in restraining people and witnessing fights and working as a security guard at fight shows having to deal with drunks getting in crowd fights and never have I worried about biometrics and matching footwork and neither has anyone else in any fight because simply as I already stated when the fists are flying you haven’t got time to think about all that. It sounds good in theory though


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## Gweilo

So you had a couple of fights and ejected drunk teenagers from clubs, lets talk about your fights,
Liscensed, unliscensed, school playground, which, maybe a karate tournament?


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## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> So you had a couple of fights and ejected drunk teenagers from clubs, lets talk about your fights,
> Liscensed, unliscensed, school playground, which, maybe a karate tournament?


No I’m good I’ve got nothing to prove to you or anyone. Any fight I’ve been in has been and gone and Certainly not things I consider accomplishments and want to brag about I could talk about them but it’d be a waste of time for all involved. I know this is just you trying to one up me but I’m not getting drawn into those silly games just because you disagree with my opinion which I stand by and do not apologise for.


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## Gweilo

Not at all, I value your opinion, (your a grumpy git sometimes) but your experience is of value, no one upmanship, you are one of the only people to try systema, so I do value your imput, even ifcwe do not agree


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## Gweilo

When I write things, not everyone agrees, but I am here to learn, even if sometimes I sound very confident, stupid or something else.


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## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Not at all, I value your opinion, (your a grumpy git sometimes) but your experience is of value, no one upmanship, you are one of the only people to try systema, so I do value your imput, even ifcwe do not agree


Well Fair enough I’m happy to discuss opinions but I have no interest in discussing fights from years ago. Fights are nothing to be proud of in my eyes and then it just ends up not looking good and then you’ll get some clown coming in saying I’m lying (not saying that’s you but I’m sure someone will) so needs it.


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## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> No I’m good


Really lol


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## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Well Fair enough I’m happy to discuss opinions but I have no interest in discussing fights from years ago. Fights are nothing to be proud of in my eyes and then it just ends up not looking good and then you’ll get some clown coming in saying I’m lying (not saying that’s you but I’m sure someone will) so needs it.


I am a advocate of, if you stop learning, its time to call it a day


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## Gweilo

Going back to your experience, is there anything, you come away with, could of moved better, could of had better conditioning, didnt drop that right hand in again?


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## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> I agree footwork is paramount, but what about controlling your opponents footwork, whilst having your footwork, ,in time with your opponents, his left touches down, your left touches down, with biomechanics, or the understanding of, do you not agree, if you are in time with your opponent, reading them is easier



No. I don't think it matters that much. 

Rather than say. I cut an angle. He then only has a few options in which to attack me. As he turns to face me. I can, if I am slick, cut another angle. Cutting off his options again. 

As far as timing goes. That angle cut then breaks the rhythm where I go, then he goes. And I get to go more often. Giving me a higher scoring shots. Which gives me a higher of finishing the fight.


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## Gweilo

This I find interesting, so for arguments sake, how do you cut the angle, if I am soley countering you? Or reacting to your movement


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## Gweilo

On a secondry note, cutting the angles, this sounds like ring craft, which is greatbin a ring, or perhaps a confined area.
I take it you are referring to the footwork of muay thai etc.


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## Gweilo

Sorry, really busy, so got to fit this in now, as might not be able to come on later.
Cutting the angle, as stated I am a counter attacker, so wont be coming forward, until my movement brings me in range after avoiding your attack, So this leaves you with 2 options, the disguised angle cut, where you hide your foot movement behind a jab or feint for example, only problem is, I wont be wearing gloves, so this leaves you at risk when you transfer mass to the lead leg being seen, and attacked, or your other angle cutting option is not common (and for good reason), were you move by effectively jumping, where both feet leave the floor, boxers use it more than muay thai or mma, for obvious reasons, once again, I am a counter attacker who is continually moving, I dont mind making you miss until you are gassed, then countering a sloppy tired attack, or if an opportunity arises, I will take it, will have to finish another time as a delivery wagon has arrived.


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## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> This I find interesting, so for arguments sake, how do you cut the angle, if I am soley countering you? Or reacting to your movement



You can counter a slick counter fighter by pouring on the pressure and staying super tight. You basically keep cutting off their angles of escape and forcing them to keep doing bigger and more desperate movements. 

And hopefully they run in to something.


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## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> On a secondry note, cutting the angles, this sounds like ring craft, which is greatbin a ring, or perhaps a confined area.
> I take it you are referring to the footwork of muay thai etc.



Ring craft is great everywhere. It is especially great against multiple oponants because the whole plan of fighting multiples is to cut off their movement and create angles.

If you can't fight and step off line you will just get flanked. And then most likely bashed. 

There is plenty of vital skills learned in ring craft that translates to street craft.

Even super basic concepts like making sure you keep your hips underneath you rather than over wide stepping. Helps you on slippery surfaces. 

Or knowing where the edge of your fighting environment is and either being able to get out easily. Or back up and use it as protection.

Trust me being able to move 3 dimensionally while engaged in a fight is one of the most useful things you can know.


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## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> Sorry, really busy, so got to fit this in now, as might not be able to come on later.
> Cutting the angle, as stated I am a counter attacker, so wont be coming forward, until my movement brings me in range after avoiding your attack, So this leaves you with 2 options, the disguised angle cut, where you hide your foot movement behind a jab or feint for example, only problem is, I wont be wearing gloves, so this leaves you at risk when you transfer mass to the lead leg being seen, and attacked, or your other angle cutting option is not common (and for good reason), were you move by effectively jumping, where both feet leave the floor, boxers use it more than muay thai or mma, for obvious reasons, once again, I am a counter attacker who is continually moving, I dont mind making you miss until you are gassed, then countering a sloppy tired attack, or if an opportunity arises, I will take it, will have to finish another time as a delivery wagon has arrived.



There are pressure fighters who beat counter fighters. There is no one magical option. Nobody is a counter fighter and therefore indestructible.

I have been tooled up by both. And have played both games. Ironically one of my coaches is a pressure fighter, one is a counter fighter. It is more to do with body shape.



And why won't you be wearing gloves?

Actually there is a third option. We can both stand there like dummies waiting for the other guy to move in a giant boring waste of time.


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## Gweilo

This is why our opinions differ, you talk about sports fighting, the nearest I came to that was in my early 20's, when I had 8 unliscensed fights, which If memory serves, the most I got paid was about £300, the rest of my experience was brawling on nights out, this is why I talk about not having gloves, in our systema group, we spar without gloves as well, sounds dramatic, but we prefer and train to strike softer areas like muscle, although there are regular fat lips and black eyes.
The ring craft comment you made, 


drop bear said:


> There are pressure fighters who beat counter fighters


Yes there is,  but you forget where your techniques come from, other arts, with agressive posture and movement, tension betrays most fighters, and spotting tension is one of the skills learnt in systema, we are students of movement.


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## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> Plenty, in both the ring (point karate, boxing, kickboxing/Muay Thai and MMA) and working as a doorman both in restraining people and witnessing fights and working as a security guard at fight shows having to deal with drunks getting in crowd fights and never have I worried about biometrics and matching footwork and neither has anyone else in any fight because simply as I already stated when the fists are flying you haven’t got time to think about all that. It sounds good in theory though



No disrespect, its a hard job, but you are dealing with people who are not in top form, unpredictable, to a degree, but not in the best catagory of an opponent, not belittling you, but your adversaries are not sober fitness nuts with regular fight experience. My view is bias, as in my day, bouncers were sober gym guys, who beat up drunk teenagers usually in pairs, having said that you still need your whits about you, are they tooled up etc.it sounds good in theory was your comment, but have you ever taken that extra 1/2 or full second to observe? My guess is no, the trigger of a scuffle in a club switches you into bouncer mode, the adrenaline pumps, and you react, like DB, you go into agression mode, its how I used to react, the so say red mist, before you know it, someone has gone through a plate glass window, or tumbled down 2 flights of stairs, or laying in a pool of their own piss, there is another way.


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## Gweilo

drop bear said:


> There are pressure fighters who beat counter fighters. There is no one magical option. Nobody is a counter fighter and therefore indestructible.
> 
> I have been tooled up by both. And have played both games. Ironically one of my coaches is a pressure fighter, one is a counter fighter. It is more to do with body shape.
> 
> 
> 
> And why won't you be wearing gloves?
> 
> Actually there is a third option. We can both stand there like dummies waiting for the other guy to move in a giant boring waste of time.



To ge honest with you, an mma trained guy would be the last opponent I would want to face, why, because I know you guys are fit, strong and skilled, but what you need to know is, there is always someone just as good, or better around the corner, no two opponents are the same.






Your mma is evolving as we speak, sorry to disappoint, but we are training in trends, and soon, we will both be training in an old regime, relics of a bygone age, take whats useful, disguard the rest, was advice given sometime ago.


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## Gweilo

Unfortunately this young man met his match


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## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> To ge honest with you, an mma trained guy would be the last opponent I would want to face, why, because I know you guys are fit, strong and skilled, but what you need to know is, there is always someone just as good, or better around the corner, no two opponents are the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your mma is evolving as we speak, sorry to disappoint, but we are training in trends, and soon, we will both be training in an old regime, relics of a bygone age, take whats useful, disguard the rest, was advice given sometime ago.


You really think they don’t know that? Every fighter knows they can be beaten as there’s very very few are undefeated.

as for evolving....well frankly MMA is much more likely to evolve than most traditional styles. I’m no MMA fanboy I’ll say this. You take your average MMA guy or boxer or Muay Thai fighter and put him against your average systema guy, the MMA/boxer/ Muay Thai will win for the majority. Of course there will be exceptions but that’s my take


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## Headhunter

My biggest takeaway from a systema class I did was that instructor couldn’t even defend a half hearted front kick.

guy asked me to kick him so he could show a move. So I threw a basic front kick. I didn’t throw it full speed and power but I threw it properly at him as that’s how I’ve been taught to attack in demonstrations and the kick landed before he even moved, he told me to do it again so I did same result. Then he told me I was being difficult....well I wasn’t I threw a kick as he asked but I did it again and threw it as slow and weak as I could now because frankly I was embarrassed for the guy so I did it and he caught my leg then then was trying to push it and pull it but it didn’t have any affect on me at all. I wasn’t resisting it but I wasn’t just going to flop down like a dead fish either. In the end he just told me to get back in line and got someone else to demo and funnily enough that guy did flop like a fish....needless to say I never went back


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## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> You really think they don’t know that? Every fighter knows they can be beaten as there’s very very few are undefeated.
> 
> as for evolving....well frankly MMA is much more likely to evolve than most traditional styles. I’m no MMA fanboy I’ll say this. You take your average MMA guy or boxer or Muay Thai fighter and put him against your average systema guy, the MMA/boxer/ Muay Thai will win for the majority. Of course there will be exceptions but that’s my take



A point well made, but I am flabergasted, how you came to that conclusion, when you only trained in systema for a couple of hours, its like me taking 4 tkd classes and saying, it has no merit


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## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> My biggest takeaway from a systema class I did was that instructor couldn’t even defend a half hearted front kick.



Forvthat I am sorry, you went to the wrong class


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## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> Forvthat I am sorry, you went to the wrong class


Oh that has happened with more than one systema person I know


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## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> A point well made, but I am flabergasted, how you came to that conclusion, when you only trained in systema for a couple of hours, its like me taking 4 tkd classes and saying, it has no merit


May not have trained it loads but I got that Conclusion because I have trained with people who’ve done it and have yet to see anyone who can actually hold their own in a fight Or a sparring match or anything using systema...when I find one that can I’ll let you know but hasn’t happened yet and any class I’ve taken has given me no indication to believe it either. I’ve been to 4 different systema clubs over the years in different countries and each one has been the same format a bunch of rolling around on the floor doing movements and some flow stuff where the partner flops to the floor if I touch his wrist with one finger


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## Gweilo

Me too, these names probably mean nothing to you, but I have sparred with Kevin Chan WC, Porl Stone TKD, Niall Adams Hapkido, and a host of Amerian based Hapkidoist, even been taken down b,y Wally Jay in a demonstration (fufing legend), I have been with far better MA,Than I could ever be, but that dont stop me trying,


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## Gweilo

Headhunter said:


> May not have trained it loads but I got that Conclusion because I have trained with people who’ve done it and have yet to see anyone who can actually hold their own in a fight Or a sparring match or anything using systema...when I find one that can I’ll let you know but hasn’t happened yet and any class I’ve taken has given me no indication to believe it either. I’ve been to 4 different systema clubs over the years in different countries and each one has been the same format a bunch of rolling around on the floor doing movements and some flow stuff where the partner flops to the floor if I touch his wrist with one finger



So out of interest, would you name these systema people you trained with, or atleast name the city?


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## Headhunter

Gweilo said:


> So out of interest, would you name these systema people you trained with, or atleast name the city?


No


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## Gweilo




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## angelariz

I have been attending Systema Seminars off and on for about 10 years. I love the grappling and striking power of the Systema players I have trained with. RI Systema is one of the schools sanctioned by Master Vasiliev. (I know they dont use titles but in my eyes he is a master of movement and self defense.


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## angelariz

Headhunter said:


> One thing I don't agree with is the whole being relaxed when you strike thing. The theories good and fine for training but if I'm attacked late at night I am not going to be relaxed at all


If you arent trained (in the system) in getting your mind on task and staying relaxed in the pocket you wouldnt know how you would react.


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## Gweilo

Whilst there is misunderstanding of systema principles, especially the controlling fear, emotions, I invite to watch the following 2 videos, they are not systema training, but contain some of the principles in our training, the 2 words to remember are, recognising, and adapting, with experience of course.


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## Gweilo

This video is also very interesting.


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## drop bear

angelariz said:


> If you arent trained (in the system) in getting your mind on task and staying relaxed in the pocket you wouldnt know how you would react.



It took me about 5 years of hard core street fighting people to be relaxed when someone really wanted to hurt me. 

And even then I had weird triggers that would set me off. 

This was regardless of any training I did.

And basically I just got really good at pretending I wasn't terrified. Or just going for it when I was. 

This training that people say does something has to result in an actual result. So you can't do amazing relaxed in the face of danger training and then never face danger and then claim the training works. 

To make this claim you need a provable connection between the training and real incidents that link the training to a relaxed mindset during some sort of high risk struggle. 

I think guys like the ice man have a method that at least works as much as it is specific.  But a lot of systems never get further than some bold and unproven claims.


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## drop bear

Gweilo said:


> This video is also very interesting.



That was terrible.


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## Headhunter

drop bear said:


> It took me about 5 years of hard core street fighting people to be relaxed when someone really wanted to hurt me.
> 
> And even then I had weird triggers that would set me off.
> 
> This was regardless of any training I did.
> 
> And basically I just got really good at pretending I wasn't terrified. Or just going for it when I was.
> 
> This training that people say does something has to result in an actual result. So you can't do amazing relaxed in the face of danger training and then never face danger and then claim the training works.
> 
> To make this claim you need a provable connection between the training and real incidents that link the training to a relaxed mindset during some sort of high risk struggle.
> 
> I think guys like the ice man have a method that at least works as much as it is specific.  But a lot of systems never get further than some bold and unproven claims.


5 years of street fighting?......well as I said in a previous thread if someone is getting into multiple street fights regularly...then it’s usually that person that’s the problem


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## drop bear

Headhunter said:


> 5 years of street fighting?......well as I said in a previous thread if someone is getting into multiple street fights regularly...then it’s usually that person that’s the problem



It was 20 years. Just took me 5 to learn to relax. 

And I did it because I needed the money.


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## drop bear

Anyway. The ice man has a method of mental control. The difference is he does what he says he can do.






Which is an important distinction.


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## Gweilo

drop bear said:


> That was terrible.



Yeah your right, it was. I think our idea or understanding of the concept being relaxed are not too far apart, but I think the concept of being tension free (relaxed), in Systema goes deeper than that of energy conservation of other arts and the mma training you talk about.
When you mentioned about someone who has had lots of fights on the street being the problem, I agree, this person will have developed a skill set that is based on experiences that are flawed, ascwe do not know the calibre of their opponents, and confidence and belief in ones ability can be dictated by ones ego. 5 years to become relaxed in a gym sense is about the average from my own experience, and that of others I speak too,  but are you more relaxed because of experience, or are you truely able to relax enough to adapt to the unexpected, and execute your reply effectively, becuse the relaxed state we strive for in Systema is mental, as well as physical, a desirable trait for elite military units around the globe, and whilst I am not out blowing up fuel stations or rescuing hostages, being in the right mental and physical state is paramount to dealing with any form of conflict. This is a better vid (promise), but it is about an hour long, and may give you a better understanding of the principles we strive for in Systema.


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## Gweilo

Interesting reading.
Rhythm of Breathing Affects Memory and Fear - Neuroscience News


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## angelariz

I have been aware of Systema for a long time. There are some great practitioners in New England. RI Systema is my go to, when I am able to get out to train with them. Sasha Komocor is a great instructor.  

I can say in my experience,  it is difficult to grapple with a good Systema guy. They are really good and escaping holds. And dont forget about the striking. Because it is serious business.

All things considered,  Systema as I have seen it, is an excellent SD method.


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