# Ortize vs. Shamrock youtube!



## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 9, 2006)

Here is the clip!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GojZt...%20vs.%20ortiz

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Cruentus (Jul 9, 2006)

Just as I suspected...thanks for posting that Brian (I was at a wedding so I missed it last night).


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 9, 2006)

Hey Paul,

I missed it to so the first thing I did this morning was youtube for it!
Yes, the fight went just a suspected.  I think if this does not retire
Shamrock then he may end up just like Rocky Balboa of movie fame.
The younger guys are really taking it to the UFC legends. (Royce, Shamrock)  However, that is to be expected in a sport.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Makalakumu (Jul 9, 2006)

Did anyone think the ref stopped the fight to quickly?


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## Cruentus (Jul 9, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Hey Paul,
> 
> I missed it to so the first thing I did this morning was youtube for it!
> Yes, the fight went just a suspected. I think if this does not retire
> ...


 
Absolutely. The majority of the people don't realize that you can't put your head and body through that kind of punishment forever.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 9, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Did anyone think the ref stopped the fight to quickly?



I have a friend who always says that every fight is ended too fast by the refs. Even when there is a crack and everyone else knows the guy is knocked out but him. 

On the close one, every replay with other camera angles shows that the ref knew what he was doing and the guy was out. 

I remember some of the first UFC's where a guy was out and there was a guy elbowing the guy out. He stopped and looked at the ref. The ref did nothing. The guys gave him another elbow and looked again. Nothing by the ref. Another couple of elbows another look, nothing. So the fighter just unloaded and then the ref finally stopped it. 

Everyone was upset that the other fighter had to stop numerous times and look at the ref to see if he would call it. 



And yes this went pretty much as I expected, I had hoped the Ken could have brought more game though.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 9, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Absolutely. The majority of the people don't realize that you can't put your head and body through that kind of punishment forever.


 
Yep and Shamrock has taken several beat downs lately.  His skills were superb against the old breed that did not have a good ground game but now he is being overmatched by people that have learned the ground game and are excelling at it.

I do not think that the ref stopped it to early.  Actually all he did was keep Shamrock from receiving three or five more wicked elbows and punches.  From a perspective of someone watching it might have been nice to let it go a little longer to see if he could survive the barage.  However, from the fighter's safety perspective I think the referee stopped it appropriately.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Andrew Green (Jul 9, 2006)

The first two elbows landed bad, then Shamrock kinda moved a little out of the way, they still where landing but not as bad.  The fight was stopped early, Shamrock wasn't even dazed when he jumped up looking for more.  Even COuture said "I'm not sure why HErb Dean stopped this" at first.  Liddell looked pretty annoyed with it as well.

Even Tito knows it was a poor decission and is looking to do it again.  http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=MultiMedia.Detail&gid=2919 - post fight interview, he's calling for a Shamrock vs Ortiz 3 in November.

Guys have taken a lot more shots then that and managed to come back.  Especiallly given that this was a co-main event and a grudge match it was stopped early.  Would letting it go longer have changed who won?  Probably not, but it still should have been done.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 9, 2006)

However, if there is a third one I have no interest in watching another beat down on Shamrock.  Nor would I pay for it.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Sapper6 (Jul 9, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> The first two elbows landed bad, then Shamrock kinda moved a little out of the way, they still where landing but not as bad. The fight was stopped early, Shamrock wasn't even dazed when he jumped up looking for more. Even COuture said "I'm not sure why HErb Dean stopped this" at first. Liddell looked pretty annoyed with it as well.
> 
> Even Tito knows it was a poor decission and is looking to do it again. http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=MultiMedia.Detail&gid=2919 - post fight interview, he's calling for a Shamrock vs Ortiz 3 in November.
> 
> Guys have taken a lot more shots then that and managed to come back. Especiallly given that this was a co-main event and a grudge match it was stopped early. Would letting it go longer have changed who won? Probably not, but it still should have been done.


 
agreed.

these fighters are professionals.  they should be treated as such.  early ref stoppage is the primary reason i don't buy the fights myself, and they certainly know how to spoil an evening.

shamrock was moving.  he wasn't out.

part of me thinks that crap like that (and other early stoppages) happen for a reason.  if the UFC doesn't want you to win, they'll just call it as soon as you start taking some shots.  BS in IMHO.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 9, 2006)

Usually I agree with ref stoppages, they are neccessary in MMA.  It's not like boxing where if you are hurt bad you fall down, here you are already down.  Back to the old UFC's there where some really bad beatings that should have been stopped.  Scott Morris, that Wing Chun guy...

But Shamrock has taken far worse, and this was a poor stoppage.  And esspecially after the Sakuraba fight in Pride you think they'd be a little careful on stopping a fight when Ken gets hit a couple times.


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## cfr (Jul 9, 2006)

I think it was a good stop. Elbow after elbow, and Shamrocks hands were not blocking his face at all. Had his hands been anywhere near his face, Id have thought it was too soon.


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## theletch1 (Jul 9, 2006)

Much as I hate to see any UFC fight become nothing more than a brawl I think that given the bad blood between these two perhaps Herb should have let it continue for awhile.  Yeah, I think Herb was doing a good job as a ref but these two guys are just gonna continue this drama ad nauseum until Ken is beaten unconscious.  Either have a third fight that ends with no doubt of victory or make a point of announcing that the drama between them needs to stop in order to allow the UFC to get on with the business of MMA and away from the WWE antics of a couple of children.


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 9, 2006)

After watching it there on youtube a few 6 times or so I think Mr. Dean stopped it too quickly.


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## jstreet (Jul 9, 2006)

I think the end result would have been the same no matter when he stopped it.


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## cfr (Jul 9, 2006)

Ironically, I think Herb Dean stops a lot of fights too early, and I thought it was too early in this fight as well when I first saw it. But then, watching it several times in slow motion, my opinion changed. When being played in slow mo, you see that Ken is just getting pummled, and his hands are not near his face.


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## Cruentus (Jul 9, 2006)

jstreet said:
			
		

> I think the end result would have been the same no matter when he stopped it.


 
I agree. The fight was stopped too early in my opinion, but only by about 5 seconds or so. You don't want to wrecklessly risk the fighters safety, but you want to leave no question in peoples minds as too who won or lost either. With that fight stoppage, people could try to argue that Shamrock could have turned it around. 

I don't think so, though, and think that the results would have been the same regardless.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 9, 2006)

i agree with those above the fight was stopped to early but only by a few seconds.
Shamrock was not defnding himslef and was getting his gead beat in. The floor and iron rings of the octagon are not the place to do a rope a dope


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## Knarfan (Jul 9, 2006)

Like Tito said, Ken went limp & wasn't defending himself. It was a good stop. Ken is 42 years old not 22. Bottom line is if the fight would have continued Ken probably would have been seriously injured. Ken is probably one of the toughest fighters in the world & he would never quit, so I think that Herb Dean did him a favor, even though he may have stepped in a blow or two early. I think that it was a good stop.


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## Gemini (Jul 9, 2006)

jstreet said:
			
		

> I think the end result would have been the same no matter when he stopped it.


I felt before the fight that Shamrock had no chance, but even I still believe that stoppage was premature.


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## Selfcritical (Jul 10, 2006)

Gemini said:
			
		

> I felt before the fight that Shamrock had no chance, but even I still believe that stoppage was premature.



Ken still had his back curled and his hips engaged, and took the lion's share of the blows to the top of the head, where they had no effect. The man wasn't even bruised.


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## Franc0 (Jul 10, 2006)

Man, youtube dropped the video . Anyone know where else it's showing?


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## profesormental (Jul 10, 2006)

Greetings!

From what I saw, and from what the referee saw, there was no defending of the sequence of elbows, and surely Shamrock would've caught more of them, turning his head into a bloody mess.

From the algle of the referee there was no action or control of the hips with the legs, and Shamrocks left arm wasn't defending them elbows.

That makes it a good call.

The fact that Shamrock was not completely destroyed and hurt doesn't mean he didn't lose the sporting match.


Personally, I would've liked to see more. Yet from the point of view of a working referee, I have to be on the side of the ref, since protecting the fighters is one of the job descriptions.

Sicnerely,

Juan M. Mercado


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 10, 2006)

Here is another longer clip on youtube.  I think this clip easily shows that Shamrock was going to eat several more elbows and probably be unconscious or in the hospital.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ielwMhwrBOw&search=shamrock%20vs.%20ortiz%20ufc%2061

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 10, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Here is another longer clip on youtube. I think this clip easily shows that Shamrock was going to eat several more elbows and probably be unconscious or in the hospital.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ielwMhwrBOw&search=shamrock%20vs.%20ortiz%20ufc%2061
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com



Removed for Copyright


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## Seabrook (Jul 11, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Did anyone think the ref stopped the fight to quickly?


 
Absolutely, although it wouldn't have gone much longer anyway.


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## Phadrus00 (Jul 11, 2006)

Ok...  At the risk of being a Jerk, please let me tell you a little bit about my expereince of being at the Mandalay Bay Event Center Sat night for the fight in person.

First of all WOW it was a packed house!  If you didn't see some of the undercard firghts on the PPV they were really impressive and the Joe Stevenson fight was tremendous!  At one point I could hear the sound of the leg impact on the other fighters thigh...  Man that must have HURT!

But on to the Tito/Shamrock fight. The crowd went wild for Tito and Booed Shamrock when they entered.  I was too high up in the stands to see the action very well so I relied on the screens in the arena and what the cameras caught but to me it certainly seemed as if Tito's blows were going unanswered and given the strength he demonstrated it would only take a couple landing well to seriously injure Shamrock.  I think the Ref called it not just because of the elbows but also because of the complete dom,ination that Tito was displaying.  That was a Big Throw and he cut through Shamrocks's defence like butter.  I would have loved to see the fight go longer but I think it would have ended up with Shamrock get taken out in a stretcher.

The crowd went crazy when the ref called it.  They started chanting "BullS*&%" and "Fight! Fight! Fight!".  This incensed the two camps and the LVPD had to form a line in the middle to keep them apart.  Meanwhile folks started throwing beer bottles (well ok so they were plastic beer bottles..  I wondered at that going into my seat at the beginning of the evening) at the Octagon and the PD had to disperse out to the crowd to settle the rowdy ones down.  It was starting to look like a messy situation there for a little bit.

I was not surprised that Tito dominated Shamrock but I was surprised that Shamrock seemed so ill prepared for Tito's rush.

I do have to say a couple of  interesting experiences though.  I was in Vegas for the MA Super Show which is how I got tickets to the UFC and Tito actually ran a MMA seminar the day before the fight which I caught the last bit of.  For all his trash talk and bad behavior in front of the camera, he is a VERY humble and well spoken person out of that limelight.  He talked about how his behavior in front of the camera is designed to add spice and drama and it is not how he acts in reality.  He stressed again and again how important it was to be respectful and humble to those around you and he was very gracious in answering questions and getting photos.  

The other interesting anecdote was that Frank Shamrock (Ken's brother) was also at the show running a seminar.  He is in amazing shape and ran a tremendous grappling tutorial.  I was talking to some conventioners on Sunday before I flew back and they had remarked that they had bumped into Frank at a bar watching the UFC fight.  They were perplexed about why he was not with his brother but Frank declined to comment.  Apparently the two are not very close...

I was so thrilled to have actually been to a UFC event in person but I do wish the Shamrock / Ortiz fight had lasted at least a couple of rounds so we can get past this rivalry.  I think seeing Ortiz go against Liddell is going to be an awesome fight!  *grin*

Rob


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 11, 2006)

Nice in person review of the Tito/Shamrock fight.  Thanks.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Phadrus00 (Jul 13, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Nice in person review of the Tito/Shamrock fight. Thanks.
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


 
Thanks man!

Regards,
Rob


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## Erik H (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks for the youtube posting of the fight.  I wanted to see it sooo badly but couldn't.  Anyway I agree that the ref stopped it too early I mean look at the Bonnar/Griffin fight.  Those two looked like 4 or 5 guys whaled on them individually but the fight didn't stop there although there was a different ref I think.  Point is I have seen more fighters take bigger better beatings than that with no stoppage.  Shamrock looked so ticked.  I would love to see them go at it again but on spike's regular series, not PPV.  Liddell/Ortiz?  That would be awesome to see that again.  

Erik H


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## AceHBK (Jul 18, 2006)

Great review of the fight. thanks!!

I wonder what is up between Frank and Ken?
Frank doesnt do any MMA tournaments like Pride or anything?


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