# What are the top 5 most potent ways to create power? (internal or external power)



## cpthindsight (Apr 22, 2015)

Is it?

1) Simple Hip rotation (creates the most power period)

2) Gravity (using gravity and body weight to create momentum, e.g. in push hands or jack Dempsey's drop step punches)

3) Relaxation (a very important part of many Chinese internal arts)

4) etc

5) etc ?



Now you tell me, what you think are the top 5 most potent ways to create power, across all of martial arts and sports, internal or external.

Kind regards


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## Danny T (Apr 22, 2015)

Rotation,
Weight displacement
Expansion of muscles
Contraction of muscles
Combination of all


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## cpthindsight (Apr 22, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Rotation,
> Weight displacement
> Expansion of muscles
> Contraction of muscles
> Combination of all




Excellent answer thankyou Danny T

Weight displacement is that what happens during a boxing punch where weight transfers from one foot to the other foot?

Expansion of muscles and contraction of muscles, what does that mean? Do you mean tensing and relaxing of muscles? Tense to gain/use muscular power relax to transmit the power efficiently?


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## mograph (Apr 22, 2015)

All of those require a unified action through the body. Nothing should be done in isolation.

(In my opinion.)


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## cpthindsight (Apr 22, 2015)

mograph said:


> All of those require a unified action through the body. Nothing should be done in isolation.
> 
> (In my opinion.)




I totally agree


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## clfsean (Apr 22, 2015)

So what do you think? Or what are you looking for/to hear? What are you basing the question on? What method(s) have you been involved with to use what generation type? Not everything fits or meshes with other things.


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## cpthindsight (Apr 22, 2015)

clfsean said:


> So what do you think? Or what are you looking for/to hear? What are you basing the question on? What method(s) have you been involved with to use what generation type? Not everything fits or meshes with other things.



I know, but alot of things are compatible together, id say most of the big generators of power are compatible. Most of them are combined together in the internal arts.

I dont want to state what I think, in fact Ive purposely given a wrong answer as my example because I dont want people to just agree and copy my answer I wanted to provoke them into saying wait thats wrong this is more powerful than that etc 

What top 5 would you give and why?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 22, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> I dont want to state what I think, *in fact Ive purposely given a wrong answer as my example* because I dont want people to just agree and copy my answer I wanted to provoke them into saying wait thats wrong this is more powerful than that etc



Alrighty then, with that all I  have to say is never forget weight is on the underside and that is all I will say.

Why are you asking this?

What is your background?


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## EddieCyrax (Apr 22, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> Excellent answer thankyou Danny T
> 
> Weight displacement is that what happens during a boxing punch where weight transfers from one foot to the other foot?
> 
> Expansion of muscles and contraction of muscles, what does that mean? Do you mean tensing and relaxing of muscles? Tense to gain/use muscular power relax to transmit the power efficiently?




I would only add solid body mechanics and structure.....


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## cpthindsight (Apr 22, 2015)

EddieCyrax said:


> I would only add solid body mechanics and structure.....



great addition thankyou for your contribution kind sir


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 22, 2015)

Breathing, distance traveled with the weapon, rooting (sometimes), launching (other times), and alignment.


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## cpthindsight (Apr 22, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Alrighty then, with that all I  have to say is never forget weight is on the underside and that is all I will say.
> 
> Why are you asking this?
> 
> What is your background?



What do you mean by weight is always on the underside exactly? 

(Id rather not say my background people get too egotistical about their chosen style or styles, I want no part of that, I respect all styles)

Im thoroughly interested in martial arts thats why I ask. Its a passion of mine.


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## cpthindsight (Apr 22, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Breathing, distance traveled with the weapon, rooting (sometimes), launching (other times), and alignment.



Excellent thankyou sir!


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 22, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> What do you mean by weight is always on the underside exactly?
> 
> (Id rather not say my background people get too egotistical about their chosen style or styles, I want no part of that, I respect all styles)
> 
> Im thoroughly interested in martial arts thats why I ask. Its a passion of mine.



I'd rather not say until I know more about what the result of this is supposed to be


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## clfsean (Apr 22, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> I know, but alot of things are compatible together, id say most of the big generators of power are compatible. Most of them are combined together in the internal arts.
> 
> I dont want to state what I think, in fact Ive purposely given a wrong answer as my example because I dont want people to just agree and copy my answer I wanted to provoke them into saying wait thats wrong this is more powerful than that etc
> 
> What top 5 would you give and why?



No thanks. You're trying to lead a discussion without giving a fair starting point. 

Enjoy.


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## cpthindsight (Apr 22, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'd rather not say until I know more about what the result of this is supposed to be



Ok no problem lol


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## cpthindsight (Apr 22, 2015)

clfsean said:


> No thanks. You're trying to lead a discussion without giving a fair starting point.
> 
> Enjoy.



I do not intend to be unfair to anyone I just wanted to stimulate argument and I have been honest about that in a subsequent post, if anyone is offended by that I apologize, but I highly doubt any adult would be.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 22, 2015)

Not offended but I am over half a century old, so I think I qualify as an adult, and trained in Traditional Martial arts (Neijia arts) by old Chinese guys (older than me) who don't give out information blindly so I wish you the best....


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## cpthindsight (Apr 22, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not offended but I am over half a century old, so I think I qualify as an adult, and trained in Traditional Martial arts (Neijia arts) by old Chinese guys (older than me) who don't give out information blindly so I wish you the best....



Ok cool thankyou


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 22, 2015)

I assume you are referring to punching so I will answer from that perspective.  The generation of power has four basic components.  Mass, velocity, torque and timing.
My view point is that power is simple....increase your mass. Increase your velocity. Increase your torque and optimize your timing.
How do you accomplish this...?
And in that answer lies the secrets and the debate and of course the arguments.


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## K-man (Apr 22, 2015)

I think the answer is a two part one because it was a two part question.

'Internal' power is totally different to 'external' power. External power is dependent on muscle strength, mass, speed, timing and the ability to accelerate that mass. Internal power is assisted by mass and is very dependent on timing.

Perhaps the things in common are maintaining structure, using the mind and timing and even then use of the mind and timing are different.

As to the 5 top ways to create power.

External

    1. Use your mass effectively.
    2. Keep relaxed to maximise speed.
    3. Ensure correct timing.
    4. Maintain your structure.
    5. Focus the mind.


Internal
(Using Tohei's four principles)

Keep One Point (maintain centre)
Relax Completely
Keep weight underside
Extend Ki (extend the mind)
and to add one to make five ...

     5.  Use broken timing


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## cpthindsight (Apr 22, 2015)

K-man said:


> I think the answer is a two part one because it was a two part question.
> 
> 'Internal' power is totally different to 'external' power. External power is dependent on muscle strength, mass, speed, timing and the ability to accelerate that mass. Internal power is assisted by mass and is very dependent on timing.
> 
> ...




thanks for the awesome answer!

can you explain what 1 and 3 are under internal? 

thanks alot mate!


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## K-man (Apr 22, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> thanks for the awesome answer!
> 
> can you explain what 1 and 3 are under internal?
> 
> thanks alot mate!


OK.

Let's look at 1.

_'Maintain one point.' _In the Eastern martial arts the Dantian (Tan Dien or Hara) has an important role. It refers to the area of the body about two inches below the navel and in the middle of your body, sort of like your centre of gravity. For those who have an interest in Chi or Ki, it is the reservoir of Chi.

Now imagine your body as a building with an external frame and a footplate On the ground within that frame. If you attach a plum bob to your COG it falls within the base produced by your feet. If it is outside that base you must step to regain your balance or you fall. Same for a building. The closer the plum bob is to the centre of the base, the more stable you are. The lower your COG the easier it is to maintain that stability.

Applying that in a martial context. I am always trying to maintain my structure while at the same time trying to destroy the structure of my opponent.

Now number 3.

_'Keep weight underside'._ This is a fundamental of Aikido and I'm sure the same would apply to many CMAs as well. *Xue* was reluctant to go further into it and I'm not going to say much more either. Suffice to say, if you try to push someone to the ground from above it is extremely difficult. They push against you to resist. That is 'weight topside' and leads to a physical clash. If you were below him you may well be able to pull him to the ground. That would be 'weight underside'. Now, when you are standing with your opponent it is easy to try to push him down physically (weight topside) but in an even match-up you will likely fail. From the same position, if you could get 'weight underside' he will most likely go down with minimum effort. How do you do that? Let me just say it takes years of training and, in my experience, most people will never be able to do it.


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## cpthindsight (Apr 23, 2015)

ok i have this sussed now


K-man said:


> OK.
> 
> Let's look at 1.
> 
> ...




dont you just drop with gravity to pull him down from above? why does that take years its so simple?


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## K-man (Apr 23, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> ok i have this sussed now.
> 
> dont you just drop with gravity to pull him down from above? why does that take years its so simple?


Must be that I am a slow learner and the people I train with are even slower.


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## cpthindsight (Apr 23, 2015)

K-man said:


> Must be that I am a slow learner and the people I train with are even slower.



Agreed 

Also I believe you are being scammed for your money, theres no such thing as Chi, and just below the navel inside is your guts not a reservoir of chi its a reservoir of crap. 

Anyway have fun with your magical powers.


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## Drose427 (Apr 23, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> Agreed
> 
> Also I believe you are being scammed for your money, theres no such thing as Chi, and just below the navel inside is your guts not a reservoir of chi its a reservoir of crap.
> 
> Anyway have fun with your magical powers.



Oh dear lord........Chi in MA's is not really Yellow Bamboo or other ill informed folks say.......K-Man will probably explain it better, but theres an entire thread on what Chi REALLY is and how it pertains to MA......

The only people claiming them as any sort of special power are the confused and the ill-informed...


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## cpthindsight (Apr 23, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Oh dear lord........Chi in MA's is not really Yellow Bamboo or other ill informed folks say.......K-Man will probably explain it better, but theres an entire thread on what Chi REALLY is and how it pertains to MA......
> 
> The only people claiming them as any sort of special power are the confused and the ill-informed...



lol


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## Drose427 (Apr 23, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> lol



such an intelligent response......


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 23, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> lol


Chi exists in your own language as, Char or Charge. It just means power. Chill, dude. I don't think anyone believes we derive our power, character, or charisma from the Three Charities (look it up), but some believe it is other worldly, some don't. You are still increasing your power, no matter how you slice it.


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## mograph (Apr 23, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> Also I believe you are being scammed for your money, theres no such thing as Chi, and just below the navel inside is your guts not a reservoir of chi its a reservoir of crap.


This may demonstrate why easterners avoid teaching those of us with a western mindset. In order to understand the construct of "chi" (yes, it's a construct, like anything else once we name and define it in our terms) we need to understand how eastern cultures use language and metaphor. When an easterner says "this is that", a westerner might say "this is _like_ that." But for the easterner, the metaphor is understood by the context. I've found, and others may agree, that east Asian languages are highly context-dependent. It wouldn't hurt to learn a little east Asian culture if you're into Asian martial arts.

We also need to understand how our body responds to our thoughts and visualizations (brain activity). For example, while it's well-known that thoughts can activate the sympathetic nervous system (fight-flight -> ulcers!), not everyone knows that meditation can activate the parasympathetic nervous system: the system that brings us back to baseline after stress and calms us down. In other words, the mind can affect the body beyond simple gross muscle contractions. K-man, if I interpret him right, is describing visualizations that lead the body to respond in certain subtle ways that can be beneficial when manipulating an opponent. I wouldn't be so quick to scoff.

(Respect to Kohei's 4 principles.)
(Apologies for generalizing east Asian culture, but I think it's appropriate in this limited context, relative to generalized western culture.)


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## jks9199 (Apr 23, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> Agreed
> 
> Also I believe you are being scammed for your money, theres no such thing as Chi, and just below the navel inside is your guts not a reservoir of chi its a reservoir of crap.
> 
> Anyway have fun with your magical powers.


Perhaps you'll  share your basis of expertise for this statement?  

You might consider a visit to the Meet & Greet, and taking a moment to introduce yourself.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 23, 2015)

I have tried to redirect the "6 core elements" thread into a "power generation" thread without much luck. May be this thread can be a good discussion of "power generation".

IMO, power generation is bottom-up and back-front. You

- bend and then straight your leg,
- twist your hip,
- rotate your body,
- extend your arm,
- *make your fist, front shoulder, back shoulder in a perfect straight line*, and
- punch out.

In order to be able to generate the maximum amount of power, you will need to move your body from one extreme to another extreme, your punch will travel through the maximum distance (as shown in the following clips).











If you can rotate your body with fast speed, you can also be able to generate the maximum power.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 23, 2015)

hmm this kind of justifies clfsean and my initial concerns doesn't it....it also puts into question your answers to us at the beginning of this thread



cpthindsight said:


> Agreed
> 
> Also I believe you are being scammed for your money, theres no such thing as Chi, and just below the navel inside is your guts not a reservoir of chi its a reservoir of crap.
> 
> Anyway have fun with your magical powers.



And you have studied this where?


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## cpthindsight (Apr 23, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> hmm this kind of justifies clfsean and my initial concerns doesn't it....it also puts into question your answers to us at the beginning of this thread
> 
> 
> 
> And you have studied this where?




same place I studied about how unicorns don't exist


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 23, 2015)

And you wanted everyone to act like an adult and be mature........ not setting a real good example there are you


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## cpthindsight (Apr 23, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> And you wanted everyone to act like an adult and be mature........ not setting a real good example there are you



I KNO U R BUT WAT AM I


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 23, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> I KNO U R BUT WAT AM I



Keep it up sonny and you might set a banning record.... I'm guessing the 27 in your profile is not exactly true either now is it


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## cpthindsight (Apr 23, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Keep it up sonny and you might set a banning record.... I'm guessing the 27 in your profile is not exactly true either now is it



I DONT MIND BEING BANNED FROM A FORUM MOSTLY FILLED WITH TROLLS LIKE U

SO U AINT GONNA GET THE BUTTHURT OUT OF ME THAT U NEED TROLL


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 23, 2015)

Don't much care sonny...I'm guessing your about 12 and the closest you ever got to training anything is a video on YouTube........


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 23, 2015)

Well this thread looks like it's going to be locked soon.
Maybe after, one of the adults can make a new post about power generation. I enjoy this topic, minus the 8 y/o comments.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 23, 2015)

More than happy too, once the OP is out of the picture


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