# Having your hands up. Self defence.



## drop bear (Jan 30, 2016)

OK. This has come up again apparently nobody shapes up in a self defence situation.
So this dosent happen.






Can someone please explain to me why you wouldn't get your hands up in a self defence? 

Because it seems insane that you would train with your hands up. For the pretty much universal reason of not getting your head smashed in. And then throw it out the window.


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## Transk53 (Jan 30, 2016)

The guy to the right a bit of a showboat maybe. Other than that I don't why you would not get the hands up. Didn't seem like the altercation was going to get serious from the get go. BTW, what was the radio show about?


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## DaveB (Jan 30, 2016)

You should probably clarify what people mean before you start new threads. Unless you are intending to post a straw man argument. 

1. Consensual violence - blokes arguing over nonsense and refusing to back down, is not self defense, it is street fighting and it is illegal. 
2. Even in most of these cases fights don't begin from fighting guard postures. People don't usually square off, put up their dukes, and start circling looking for openings. 
3. Finding one or two examples of something on YouTube doesn't prove anything about anything.


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## drop bear (Jan 30, 2016)

DaveB said:


> You should probably clarify what people mean before you start new threads. Unless you are intending to post a straw man argument.
> 
> 1. Consensual violence - blokes arguing over nonsense and refusing to back down, is not self defense, it is street fighting and it is illegal.
> 2. Even in most of these cases fights don't begin from fighting guard postures. People don't usually square off, put up their dukes, and start circling looking for openings.
> 3. Finding one or two examples of something on YouTube doesn't prove anything about anything.



OK. Why don't you circle and look for openings? Is this because most people don't do it?


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## Transk53 (Jan 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> OK. Why don't you circle and look for openings? Is this because most people don't do it?



Most wouldn't probably. Then again one would have to be untrained or an idiot to wade in. Circling for an opening is just basic right?


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## drop bear (Jan 30, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> The guy to the right a bit of a showboat maybe. Other than that I don't why you would not get the hands up. Didn't seem like the altercation was going to get serious from the get go. BTW, what was the radio show about?



The altercation was just an example.

 There is this theory that in self defence situations you don't shape up, don't use foot work. You effectively do the opposite to what is considered safe in training.

And I am interested to know why.

I know I get my hands up in self defence because I am pretty confident it gets me bashed less. 

The radio station was discussing better water management.


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## drop bear (Jan 30, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Most wouldn't probably. Then again one would have to be untrained or an idiot to wade in. Circling for an opening is just basic right?



That is kind of my stance on the issue.


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## Transk53 (Jan 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> The altercation was just an example.
> 
> There is this theory that in self defence situations you don't shape up, don't use foot work. You effectively do the opposite to what is considered safe in training.
> 
> ...



Don't know either tbh. I know my hands go up into defensive posture. Mind you Bear, most of the situations I have dealt with, most struggled to actually throw a punch. Guess road rage like that would be the same, had one recently. Bit of mouthing off rather than a concentrated effort to get in there.


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## Transk53 (Jan 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> That is kind of my stance on the issue.



Yeah to me the exception would be someone having confidence bordering on arrogance. Still the same result. Over confidence breeding incompetence. Circle everytime for me.


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## DaveB (Jan 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> There is this theory that in self defence situations you don't shape up, don't use foot work. You effectively do the opposite to what is considered safe in training.
> 
> And I am interested to know why.


No. There really isn't.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 30, 2016)

drop bear ,  what is the point of the thread and the clip?  i dont understand where your going with this.  the clip shows one guy swinging and the other guy covering. are you saying that the guy throwing punches should have his hands up doing "peek a boo" style ?   or are you showing the effectivness of keeping your hands up when punches are hitting you?



drop bear said:


> Can someone please explain to me why you wouldn't get your hands up in a self defence?


or maybe you are taking something someone said in another thread and taking it out of context.....
so here is an example of why people dont have their hands up.. you just dont see it coming.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Can someone please explain to me why you wouldn't get your hands up in a self defence?


To be "on guard" is a 2 edges sword. it inform your opponent that you have some MA training and also you are ready to fight (CON). Of course you can protect your head (PRO), but do you need to be on guard if you are ready to shoot at your opponent's leg/legs?

My hands drop next to my knee. You throw a straight head punch toward my face. I can:

1. throw a front toe punch kick at your belly (leg is longer than the arm).
2. use stealing footwork to spin my body, swing a 45 degree downward "hay-maker" that not only knock your punch down, if you move in too fast, my "hay-maker" may hit on the back of your head and knock you down (use circular move to counter straight line move).
3. drop level and shoot at your leg/legs.

MA is a cheating game.

- Drop your guard to invite a punch.
- Raise your guard to invite a kick.


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## marques (Jan 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> OK. This has come up again apparently nobody shapes up in a self defence situation.
> So this dosent happen.
> 
> 
> ...


Clearly better than nothing. And easier than most of things.
But a trained person should do more, to deal with smarter aggressors.
Ex: To MOVE, not easy in real life I know, but training is for something. Just moving is already half defense...And to SEE what is happening, more aggressors coming? Knife? ...
Just hands up, this way, only works against unskilled people...


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To be "on guard" is a 2 edges sword. it inform your opponent that you have some MA training and also you are ready to fight (CON). Of course you can protect your head (PRO), but do you need to be on guard if you are ready to shoot at your opponent's leg/legs?
> 
> My hands drop next to my knee. You throw a straight head punch toward my face. I can:
> 
> ...


The first line of defense should always be the stance.  Even if the hands are down the feet and legs should be the first "defensive" system to come on line. Eyes and ears are always on.  A person can't retreat, counter, defend, or attack if the legs aren't in a position to make those things happen.  A person doesn't have to be in a full on fight stance, but  those legs and feet should be working together to maintain distance or working to make sure that you aren't in a bad position. Attackers tend to have a "lion like" approach as they try to position themselves in a way that will make their attack more effective.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> The first line of defense should always be the stance.


Agree! When I was young, one time I got into argument with some gang members. I turned my body side way. One guy said, "Are you ready to fight?" If side way stance can mean "ready to fight", the "on guard" stance can send out much stronger "ready to fight" signal. Sometime, that's not good in a self-defense situation when you just want to give your opponent a "surprise attack".



marques said:


> more aggressors coming? Knife? ...


Also if you raise your arms up, how will you be able to draw your knife (or gun) out of your pocket if needed?


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## drop bear (Jan 30, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> drop bear ,  what is the point of the thread and the clip?  i dont understand where your going with this.  the clip shows one guy swinging and the other guy covering. are you saying that the guy throwing punches should have his hands up doing "peek a boo" style ?   or are you showing the effectivness of keeping your hands up when punches are hitting you?
> 
> 
> or maybe you are taking something someone said in another thread and taking it out of context.....
> so here is an example of why people dont have their hands up.. you just dont see it coming.



So "that they are untrained or idiots"seem to be consistant.

Do you feel having their hands up and using footwork may have helped prevent those sucker punches.

Out of context?

This is has been put down as an absolute so many times it is practically a rule.


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## drop bear (Jan 30, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To be "on guard" is a 2 edges sword. it inform your opponent that you have some MA training and also you are ready to fight (CON). Of course you can protect your head (PRO), but do you need to be on guard if you are ready to shoot at your opponent's leg/legs?
> 
> My hands drop next to my knee. You throw a straight head punch toward my face. I can:
> 
> ...



Yeah. You fight with the tools that work for you. The reason people get their hands up is not some esoteric one. It is a practical one.


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## Transk53 (Jan 30, 2016)

Mmm, classic thread turning to over complicated


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## Transk53 (Jan 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. You fight with the tools that work for you. The reason people get their hands up is not some esoteric one. It is a practical one.



Agree. The trick is the response obviously


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## JP3 (Jan 30, 2016)

To me, I agree with Bear... it is generally an accepted truth that it is a "Good Thing" to be bashed less.

Real world, start of confrontation having arms simply in front of you - not necessarily even standing in a guarding posture (ala boxing/fighting stances) is a much more survivable position than to be caught witht he hands down at the sides.  Shoot, if nothing else, a person has to cover a little extra distance and get over/under/around/through the arms.  Basics, to me. Hands up, arms in front, chin down, eyes open, weight on balls of feet and knees bent..... 1st day in class stuff, but very very important, and oftentimes the 1st things forgotten when le caca strikes ventilateur.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 30, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! When I was young, one time I got into argument with some gang members. I turned my body side way. One guy said, "Are you ready to fight?" If side way stance can mean "ready to fight", the "on guard" stance can send out much stronger "ready to fight" signal. Sometime, that's not good in a self-defense situation when you just want to give your opponent a "surprise attack".
> 
> 
> Also if you raise your arms up, how will you be able to draw your knife (or gun) out of your pocket if needed?


I have an old man walk, and an old man stance. I'll have to post a video of it. I think people will get a good laugh since it's a huge contrast to how I look when doing martial arts.


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## Buka (Jan 30, 2016)

I'm so confused.


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## Transk53 (Jan 30, 2016)

Buka said:


> I'm so confused.



Why?


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 30, 2016)

im confused as well.
i still have no idea what drop bears point was.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2016)

Buka said:


> I'm so confused.


Drop Bear asks whether one should always wear body armor while walking on the street.


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## FriedRice (Jan 31, 2016)

My street-fighting stance is a Boxer's  Philly Shell/Mayweather's Crab Defense (but a little less aggressive and more relaxed, with a shorter leg stance) while maintaining distance that's a little out of striking range. 

Most street altercations, starts out with posturing, choice of words, etc.  Raising a high guard with hands up, indicates to bystanders and surveillance cameras that I may be the Aggressor and out looking for a fight. Say it's an argument over a parking space and he's yelling about it.....and so are you, but with your hands up in front of face? That may be conceived as escalation.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Drop Bear asks whether one should always wear body armor while walking on the street.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 31, 2016)

JP3 said:


> To me, I agree with Bear... it is generally an accepted truth that it is a "Good Thing" to be bashed less.
> 
> Real world, start of confrontation having arms simply in front of you - not necessarily even standing in a guarding posture (ala boxing/fighting stances) is a much more survivable position than to be caught witht he hands down at the sides.  Shoot, if nothing else, a person has to cover a little extra distance and get over/under/around/through the arms.  Basics, to me. Hands up, arms in front, chin down, eyes open, weight on balls of feet and knees bent..... 1st day in class stuff, but very very important, and oftentimes the 1st things forgotten when le caca strikes ventilateur.


If you aren't sure you are fighting, it would look a lot more normal just to stay out of people kill zones, and check your hair, when that becomes impossible.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you aren't sure you are fighting, it would look a lot more normal just to stay out of people kill zones, and check your hair, when that becomes impossible.



Yeah the thinking man or something.


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## DaveB (Jan 31, 2016)

As well as raising a boxing guard and circling round.the demarcated fight area and testing their victims defence with jabs and feints, most drunk or enraged assailants who attack unprovoked, also like to ensure a referee is present to ensure no cheating, and that someone is counting the round length.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Most wouldn't probably. Then again one would have to be untrained or an idiot to wade in. Circling for an opening is just basic right?


Sure, unless the other guy wades in, then there's no circling. We don't always get to make that decision.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2016)

drop bear said:


> The altercation was just an example.
> 
> There is this theory that in self defence situations you don't shape up, don't use foot work. You effectively do the opposite to what is considered safe in training.
> 
> ...


That's a strange theory, and one I'm not familiar with. Ever school I've been in teaches some sort of guard, and some sort of defensive stance. Some (mine included) teach how to disguise it, so it is less confrontational, since the larger part of self-defense is avoiding the need for the physical skills.


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## Buka (Jan 31, 2016)

Okay, I think I'm getting the idea of this thread. I _think_.

I've never put my guard up before a strike was actually thrown at me in a self defense situation. A fence, sure, not the standard one, though, but one I've drilled forever and like better. I can usually talk down any situation, been very successful at that. (If not, that's okay, too.) I'm more comfortable with the aggressor taking the initiative as I'm a counter fighter, familiar with courts and there seem to be cameras everywhere. And I'm perfectly comfortable trading. I so like the element of surprise.

The older one gets the easier it is to talk your way out of bad situations - because you look old. You're really not a social, or monkey dance, threat anymore. I think most older Martial Artists take advantage of this. The flip side is - if they want to prey on older folks we are less likely to have any mercy what-so-ever. And we have far better attorneys and nice medical plans.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Sure, unless the other guy wades in, then there's no circling. We don't always get to make that decision.



Different methods for different scenarios


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## Transk53 (Jan 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Sure, unless the other guy wades in, then there's no circling. We don't always get to make that decision.



True. Waders tended to be ill disciplined that I dealt with. Tended to be a lot easier to with. Those coked up to the eyeballs were a hefty to deal with.


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## DaveB (Jan 31, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Different methods for different scenarios


What! But surely your standard mma sparring practice works universally for all situations because everyone you could ever need to fight does so by the rules and limitations of mma sparring? 

How could we possibly need different methods for different situations?!


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## crazydiamond (Jan 31, 2016)

I don't know exactly whats the point of this thread, but as a newer MA I will add my two cents.

1) Many of the street fight or altercation videos  I see people have their hands down and get really close with  verbal words and heat before the first punch comes. I rarely see hands up unless they are ready to rumble - arranged fight - or one goes into a pure fighting stance - fists up and moves in and so the other matches the stance.

2) I am taught by my instructors to avoid a fight and best way is hands up and open palms outward towards opponent and in a very slight lead stance, but basically in the "please stop I don't want any trouble" pose  and loud words of "no trouble please back off" . This allows you to check strike -and quickly change to closed fist and wider stance or blocks/parry.

3) The guy in the video seems to have good cover to prevent injury,tight and chin down, good stuff -  but he just takes it all defense until moving away. Maybe he has real training and did not want to hurt the other guy -  just toying ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> True. Waders tended to be ill disciplined that I dealt with. Tended to be a lot easier to with. Those coked up to the eyeballs were a hefty to deal with.


Absolutely, on both counts. (I've never had to deal personally with the coked-up ones, but have trained alongside several who could share their experience.)

It's almost a given that those wading in fall into one of two camps: ill-disciplined (perhaps untrained), or over-confident (by their "math" this will be an easy fight).


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## Transk53 (Jan 31, 2016)

DaveB said:


> What! But surely your standard mma sparring practice works universally for all situations because everyone you could ever need to fight does so by the rules and limitations of mma sparring?
> 
> How could we possibly need different methods for different situations?!



Would not need different methods against a opponent in the ring. A random street encounter could have various differences in how it is approached.


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## Transk53 (Jan 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Absolutely, on both counts. (I've never had to deal personally with the coked-up ones, but have trained alongside several who could share their experience.)
> 
> It's almost a given that those wading in fall into one of two camps: ill-disciplined (perhaps untrained), or over-confident (by their "math" this will be an easy fight).



Yes on the latter for sure. It is amazing what cocaine can do to rationally. As I'm sure that who have trained with, will doubt tell for a fleeting moment, it is damn scary. They can strike out and not even realise any drop out. Managed to walk one out once, at the front door, the mood of the guy just switched to red mist in a heartbeat. Thankfully he was talked down by the front door team. Yeah, an engagement would have been the result with collateral damage. Got admit that even I felt a bit apprensive. Guy had roid muscles.


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## drop bear (Jan 31, 2016)

DaveB said:


> What! But surely your standard mma sparring practice works universally for all situations because everyone you could ever need to fight does so by the rules and limitations of mma sparring?
> 
> How could we possibly need different methods for different situations?!



You need different methods for different situations in mma sparring as well.

You get rushed. You get caught off guard and you eat flurries.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Yes on the latter for sure. It is amazing what cocaine can do to rationally. As I'm sure that who have trained with, will doubt tell for a fleeting moment, it is damn scary. They can strike out and not even realise any drop out. Managed to walk one out once, at the front door, the mood of the guy just switched to red mist in a heartbeat. Thankfully he was talked down by the front door team. Yeah, an engagement would have been the result with collateral damage. Got admit that even I felt a bit apprensive. Guy had roid muscles.


Ugh - 'roid muscles backed by coke. We all know strength matters, as does stamina, as does pain tolerance - to my knowledge, cocaine affects all three in a way that doesn't go in (in this case) your favor. Glad your team was able to avoid that.


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## Transk53 (Jan 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Ugh - 'roid muscles backed by coke. We all know strength matters, as does stamina, as does pain tolerance - to my knowledge, cocaine affects all three in a way that doesn't go in (in this case) your favor. Glad your team was able to avoid that.



Yes and thanks. In clubland, par for the course unfortunately.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Yes and thanks. In clubland, par for the course unfortunately.


I have heard similar from a friend who worked that circuit for a while, as well as the senior brown belt under my first instructor in NGA (who worked at a strip club as a bouncer).


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## FriedRice (Jan 31, 2016)

crazydiamond said:


> I
> 
> 1) Many of the street fight or altercation videos  I see people have their hands down and get really close with  verbal words and heat before the first punch comes. I rarely see hands up unless they are ready to rumble - arranged fight - or one goes into a pure fighting stance - fists up and moves in and so the other matches the stance.



This is why the Philly Shell and/or Mayweather's Crab Defense stance works really well while maintaining distance. Lead arm is down and folded like an "L" with lead hand at opposite side of hips.....rear hand is in front of face and moving with speech.....like people who talks with their hands.

You just have to use footwork to keep distance and tell the fool to "talk to me from right there" as he tries to get chest to chest while you move away with footwork. This is for, of course, when you don't want to fight but also, don't want to back down and run/walk away, neither.


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## crazydiamond (Feb 1, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> This is why the Philly Shell and/or *Mayweather's Crab Defense stance works really well while maintaining distance. Lead arm is down and folded like an "L" with lead hand at opposite side of hips.....rear hand is in front of face and moving with speech.....like people who talks with their hands.*
> 
> You just have to use footwork to keep distance and tell the fool to "talk to me from right there" as he tries to get chest to chest while you move away with footwork. This is for, of course, when you don't want to fight but also, don't want to back down and run/walk away, neither.



This stance in a pending altercation or threat?








As oppose to this stance ?


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## FriedRice (Feb 1, 2016)

crazydiamond said:


> This stance in a pending altercation or threat?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I teach people to do both and train both as they both applies on the street and in the ring/cage....but the problem with the....hands up stance (right away)...."hey look, I don't want to fight...calm down bro..." is that, many to most real life altercations don't start out with some dude acting like he's going to attack and rape you....like in a movie or a Self Defense class.  Usually it's toughguy, chest puffing or figuring **** out.....some cussing, maybe screaming...but then it ends.

Let's say some dude follows me after a road rage incident....regardless of who's fault it was....I stop my car and get out to see whats up....you know, because I'm gamey (especially when I was younger)....it still doesn't mean that this 2nd stance makes sense right away....because it's usually just like...."what? whatdoyouwant?" ...."you gonna do something?".... putting the hands up means you want to fight in this situation to bystanders and CCTV.... And I never fought anyone, physically, from such incidents. 

Or somebody bumps into you at a bar...you say "watch it..."...he turns and say "whatsup P****?"....and flexes....do you go hands up right away?   People around you will be like...you're weird.....the other guy may be like..."WTF calm down buddy"...so now....do you still keep your hands up like this? 

Like with Bouncers...plenty of dumb drunks steps up to them and often....but do Bouncers immediately put their hands up?  That's just escalation....most of the time it's just talking to a drunk fool.....but in the Philly Shell, you can talk while being in great defensive AND offensive position.


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## Buka (Feb 1, 2016)

I always use a version of that first stance shown above as a fence.






It appears casual or as if you're only mildly interested or bored. Or like you're mulling over what they're saying. You can support your chin, rub your face or talk with your hands (the top hand) like this. Which gets their eyes used to movement of that hand.






Look where the top hand is in relation to their face (if they're standing in front of you, no doubt with shenanigans on their mind) I love having my hand that close to a man's face when he doesn't realize it. I find it quite comforting.

If you have to use that hand you can shove against them as you step back (if you want distance) or step in with your forward foot to create more of a shove, strike etc. Or hook punch, grab whatever. You can work anything from there.

I used that stance throughout my career as a cop, a bouncer and as a city guy. Never once did it fail me. Sure got me out of a lot of jams.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2016)

Buka said:


> I always use a version of that first stance shown above as a fence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These kinds of postures/stances are a great way to get into various defensive hand positions (guards and fences, as I'm seeing them called) without looking combative. All of them get one or both hands in a position to guard the head. Standard fighting stances are too easily recognized, and can provoke those ready to be provoked.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 1, 2016)

How does that stance work against someone who comes in to do a take down?


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## Transk53 (Feb 1, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> How does that stance work against someone who comes in to do a take down?



Sheer theatrics' I would think.


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## Buka (Feb 1, 2016)

< Prev


JowGaWolf said:


> How does that stance work against someone who comes in to do a take down?



Same way, really, if you train take down defense, you sprawl. Either arm arm will go under the chin, depending on the circumstance. You might slap the top hand down on his back as you kick your legs back and move the bottom arm across the neck, You might use the top hand/arm to push a little to the side if you're going for the back. You might kick you legs into the sprawl as the top hand goes for a grab to the waist (his belt, pants top, or part of the shirt/jacket/whatever) for control, you might rake the face in an uppercut sort of move as you scramble for position. It kind of depends. There's a whole bootload of places to go. You might use the bottom arm to influence his back as you knee strike, if you have really good knee strikes from that position I, unfortunately, do not.

But like anything else, you adapt and go from there.


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## FriedRice (Feb 1, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> How does that stance work against someone who comes in to do a take down?



You missed the point, but you can just sprawl from the Philly Shell.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> You missed the point, but you can just sprawl from the Philly Shell.


How did I miss the point when I'm asking someone to explain something I don't use?  Not everyone on here asks questions to be a butt. I'm asking because I don't know and I'm curious with how the stance works against a takedown.


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## Paul_D (Feb 2, 2016)

drop bear said:


> OK. This has come up again apparently nobody shapes up in a self defence situation.
> So this dosent happen.
> 
> 
> ...


As there is no damage to vehicle, I am assuming this is not an accident and the two men have gotten out of their car to swap insurance information, which has then led to violence.   Instead it looks as though they have had a disagreement, and have willingly gotten out of their car to have a road rage argument which has descended into a fight.

I don't see how getting out of your car to have a road rage argument which then ends up in a fight is self defence.

This is a fight, so i would expect people to square off in a fighting stance, because that is what they are doing, willingly engaging in a street fight.

In self defence, if you study the rituals of violence( the methods used by career criminals) muggers and rapist do not square off in a fighting stance when mugging or raping people.

Again it would appear we are confusing two idiots fighting in the street with self defence.

If you are taken money out of a cash machine, and someone approaches and asks for the time, you don't put your hands up in a fighting stance in case they are a mugger.  you woudl however use the fence to protect your personal space (so you can't be sucker punched) and if they encroached into that personal space then you know their intentions are less than honourable, and would be justified (at least under UK law) in striking pre-emptively in order to defend yourself.

Squaring off in a fighting stance and inviting the other person to engage in a fight is a street fight.  Fighting in the street is illegal, and has nothing to do with self defence.

So, the reason you don't put your hands up in boxing guard is becasue self defence (being mugged, assualted, raped) doesn't not resemble a fight.  If you decide to fight, then yes you would put your hands up, but that isn't self defence.


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## drop bear (Feb 2, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> As there is no damage to vehicle, I am assuming this is not an accident and the two men have gotten out of their car to swap insurance information, which has then led to violence.   Instead it looks as though they have had a disagreement, and have willingly gotten out of their car to have a road rage argument which has descended into a fight.
> 
> I don't see how getting out of your car to have a road rage argument which then ends up in a fight is self defence.
> 
> ...



OK. But if I make up a scenario where you are being mugged and eat a shot you then counter strike, create space and put your guard up. Then you do self defence with your guard up. If he comes forwards then you are defending yourself.

You may study the rituals of violence but if you don't study the patterns of assault then you are not defending yourself properly. Muggers and rapists may not put their guard up. But that does not give them an advantage if you do.

Self defence does not look like two trained fighters Because most people are idiots.


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## Paul_D (Feb 2, 2016)

drop bear said:


> But that does not give them an advantage if you do.


But if you put your hands up in a fighting guard (just in case they are a mugger) every time a stranger approaches you to ask the time, then that send out the wrong message, and can led to more problem than it solves.


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## drop bear (Feb 2, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> But if you put your hands up in a fighting guard (just in case they are a mugger) every time a stranger approaches you to ask the time, then that send out the wrong message, and can led to more problem than it solves.



Good point. Don't do that then.


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## Paul_D (Feb 2, 2016)

Of course if blows are being exchanged,  yes you would put your hands up to protect yourself from begin hit  But I think when people suggest you don't put them up (in a fighting stance) for SD, they are referring to what takes place before blows you start striking.  (as opposed to two poepel fighting where they will have their hands up in guard and be circling/bobbing/weaving prior to the exchange of blows).

Ideally, once you attack, you want a one way stream of attacks in his direction until the threat is neutralised, but things don't always go according to plan, so you need to some default position to protect yourself.


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## Buka (Feb 2, 2016)

I think all you guys are right. (I know, that's no fun) If two people square off to fight in the street, it's the same foolish scenario of our youth - "You and me, after school, behind the grocery store."


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## FriedRice (Feb 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> How did I miss the point when I'm asking someone to explain something I don't use?  Not everyone on here asks questions to be a butt. I'm asking because I don't know and I'm curious with how the stance works against a takedown.



Hey, sorry about that. I jumped the gun unfairly. 

This Philly Shell stance can work well against take-downs.....say a Wrestler type, single or double leg, you can sprawl. While Judo throw attempts, your hands in this PS is still very mobile, especially the jab that comes up from a strange angle, that's much harder to see....to prevent the clinch, into take-down attempt.


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## drop bear (Feb 2, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Of course if blows are being exchanged,  yes you would put your hands up to protect yourself from begin hit  But I think when people suggest you don't put them up (in a fighting stance) for SD, they are referring to what takes place before blows you start striking.  (as opposed to two poepel fighting where they will have their hands up in guard and be circling/bobbing/weaving prior to the exchange of blows).
> 
> Ideally, once you attack, you want a one way stream of attacks in his direction until the threat is neutralised, but things don't always go according to plan, so you need to some default position to protect yourself.



OK. Here is what I do. Someone wants to be Mr threat. I create space and get my hands up, I circle (actually I mostly don't Because it is silly) I bob and weave. I do this for two reasons. 

My hands up are better able to defend than hands down. 

Nobody can effectively stop punches from inside the pocket. 

So I manage the situation to look just like a sparring match. If eyes closed wild arm swinging worked better. I would do that in sparring.(there is nothing stopping me sparring however I want)

So we are back to idiots have their hands down.






Get your hands up. Get yourself mobile.


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## Transk53 (Feb 2, 2016)

drop bear said:


> OK. Here is what I do. Someone wants to be Mr threat. I create space and get my hands up, I circle (actually I mostly don't Because it is silly) I bob and weave. I do this for two reasons.
> 
> My hands up are better able to defend than hands down.
> 
> ...



Well your already mobile. Bob and weave is cool, but a move based on quick judgement IMHO of course. Yeah bob and weave descalates, but also accelerates tention. Could go either way then.


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## drop bear (Feb 2, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Well your already mobile. Bob and weave is cool, but a move based on quick judgement IMHO of course. Yeah bob and weave descalates, but also accelerates tention. Could go either way then.



Life has risks. If there was a sure fire way of deescalation I would tell people to do that.

But sure fire deescalating is only for fiction and combat scenarios.


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## Transk53 (Feb 2, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Life has risks. If there was a sure fire way of deescalation I would tell people to do that.
> 
> But sure fire deescalating is only for fiction and combat scenarios.



Well yeah. A fight is organic and pretty much obvious to the initiated. There is a sure fire way though. It is presence in all.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 2, 2016)

Every time someone tried to look for trouble, one of my friends would always hold a deputy sheriff patch in one hand, hold hand gun in another, and ask his opponent, "Which one do you want?" That was so cool.


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## drop bear (Feb 2, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Well yeah. A fight is organic and pretty much obvious to the initiated. There is a sure fire way though. It is presence in all.




You would think it was pretty obvious. Still people train to identify threats based on a guy has his fists clenched has veins popping out his neck and giving you the stink eye. He might want to initiate combat with you.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 2, 2016)

One thing for sure is, before you train how to hit other's head, you have to train how to take a hit on your own head first.

For those who prefers to by pass that "being hit on the head" training, the "rhino guard" can be a short cut. If you can extend your arms, seal off your front door (between your arms), and only allow your opponent's punches to come through your side doors (on the right side of your right arm, or on the left side of your left arm), also since your extended arms will not give your opponent's arm to have the proper distance for his hook or uppercut (bending arm is shorter than straight arm, if your opponent tries to hook or uppercut your head, your "rhino horn" will hit on his face first), the chance that your head will get punched can be reduced.

The moment that your opponent tries to hit on your body, since your "rhino horn" is right in front of his face, his face will be exposed to your "rhino horn" attack.


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## Transk53 (Feb 3, 2016)

drop bear said:


> You would think it was pretty obvious. Still people train to identify threats based on a guy has his fists clenched has veins popping out his neck and giving you the stink eye. He might want to initiate combat with you.



Oh yeah for sure. That is I applied a little psychology game to it. I must stress that I am no expert on that, but you turn the obvious to your own advantage. At the end of day, they put their hands up, you do likewise, but convey the fact you own the ground, combat usually ends before it started. Training to be combative in SD is down to personal interpretation to me. Too many scenarios, so I guess training to go into a hands up is a bit of a escalator, rather than the opposite.


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## drop bear (Feb 3, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Oh yeah for sure. That is I applied a little psychology game to it. I must stress that I am no expert on that, but you turn the obvious to your own advantage. At the end of day, they put their hands up, you do likewise, but convey the fact you own the ground, combat usually ends before it started. Training to be combative in SD is down to personal interpretation to me. Too many scenarios, so I guess training to go into a hands up is a bit of a escalator, rather than the opposite.



You do have to escalate a bit. Or they are going to smell blood and go for you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2016)

drop bear said:


> You would think it was pretty obvious. Still people train to identify threats based on a guy has his fists clenched has veins popping out his neck and giving you the stink eye. He might want to initiate combat with you.


Training cues is necessary for those who haven't been in situations that turned violent, because they don't have the experience to recognize them. In management training, I train managers in cues for dealing with angry employees (and know when "angry" is an understatement), so they don't get sucker-punched. If it helps there, it's also useful for my self-defense students.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2016)

drop bear said:


> You do have to escalate a bit. Or they are going to smell blood and go for you.


Not always. I've backed down folks who were intent on a fight, simply by not being scared and not being willing to step into combat with them. I didn't escalate, I just controlled. 

Maybe that's the same thing as you're saying. I've been known to misunderstand you before.


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## Transk53 (Feb 3, 2016)

drop bear said:


> You do have to escalate a bit. Or they are going to smell blood and go for you.



Yes, but the threat is still contained. Hey look my preference is to insult them from a grapple. But yeah I hear you bear


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## Balrog (Feb 4, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> My street-fighting stance is a Boxer's  Philly Shell/Mayweather's Crab Defense (but a little less aggressive and more relaxed, with a shorter leg stance) while maintaining distance that's a little out of striking range.
> 
> Most street altercations, starts out with posturing, choice of words, etc.  Raising a high guard with hands up, indicates to bystanders and surveillance cameras that I may be the Aggressor and out looking for a fight. Say it's an argument over a parking space and he's yelling about it.....and so are you, but with your hands up in front of face? That may be conceived as escalation.


If your hands are closed into fists, yes.  If they are open, fingers spread, palms facing your opponent, that body language is very pacifistic and non-threatening.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2016)

Balrog said:


> If your hands are closed into fists, yes.  If they are open, fingers spread, palms facing your opponent, that body language is very pacifistic and non-threatening.


Yes, assuming the rest of your body is also saying "non-aggressive".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 4, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, assuming the rest of your body is also saying "non-aggressive".


The best self defense posture is to:

- Look down on the ground and avoid eyes contact.
- Drop down your arms next to your legs.
- Shake your body and pretend you are scare.
- Pee in your pants if you can.

You then suddenly jump in and eat your opponent alive. This is called "pretend you are a pig and eat a tiger".


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## FriedRice (Feb 4, 2016)

Balrog said:


> If your hands are closed into fists, yes.  If they are open, fingers spread, palms facing your opponent, that body language is very pacifistic and non-threatening.



But it still looks way more aggressive and combative than the Philly Shell stance. And many altercations starts out with talking and cussing... that can be non-threatening so who's going to just raise their hands up like this? If you were the Bouncer, would you raise both hands up, "open, fingers spread, palms facing your opponent"...?  And how long would you keep them up because this video is over 5 minutes and that doesn't include what was missing before the camera-guy started rolling.


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## drop bear (Feb 4, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The best self defense posture is to:
> 
> - Look down on the ground and avoid eyes contact.
> - Drop down your arms next to your legs.
> ...



If I have peed my pants. I would then absolutely have to triangle choke them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The best self defense posture is to:
> 
> - Look down on the ground and avoid eyes contact.
> - Drop down your arms next to your legs.
> ...


The sudden change can work well in most situations. I teach women not to look away, as some sexual predators report that turns them on.

Of course, any time you look away (down), you also run the risk that they take advantage of that moment to attack - a calculated risk.


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## Buka (Feb 4, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The best self defense posture is to:
> 
> - Look down on the ground and avoid eyes contact.
> - Drop down your arms next to your legs.
> ...



So good.


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## Buka (Feb 4, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> But it still looks way more aggressive and combative than the Philly Shell stance. And many altercations starts out with talking and cussing... that can be non-threatening so who's going to just raise their hands up like this? If you were the Bouncer, would you raise both hands up, "open, fingers spread, palms facing your opponent"...?  And how long would you keep them up because this video is over 5 minutes and that doesn't include what was missing before the camera-guy started rolling.



I so don't miss those days - except for when I do. Those situations are a lot easier to deal with than they look. It comes with the job. Buncha' guys out drinking on the town. The key is you're sober - and working.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 4, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> any time you look away (down), you also run the risk that they take advantage of that moment to attack - a calculated risk.


When your opponent attacks you, he has to shift weight on his leading leg. If you are outside of the punching range and inside the kicking range, I believe this is the best "self-defense" distance because your opponent's punch can't reach you but your kick/sweep can reach him (leg is longer than arm), the moment that you detect your opponent has shifted more weight from his back foot into his front foot, you can

- sweep his leading leg and take him down.
- stomp on his leading leg knee to interrupt his forward movement.
- use toe push kick to kick his belly or chest to hurt him,
- ...

So even if you are looking down, you can still judge the correct distance and do whatever that you will need to do.


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## Phobius (Feb 4, 2016)

Problem with bringing your hands up too soon is that a self defense situation will become a street fight. Difference being that in most countries you will end up paying for it with jailtime or a heavy ticket after having spent some time in hold-up. 

Make sure whatever stance you have that it is seen as passive by witnesses. It has to look as if you are in trouble because then somehow the law starts protecting you, but being able to outfight your opponent would mean you easily become responsible for any damage he takes. Not sure about this in the USA though given gun laws and such but not all live in the USA.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When your opponent attacks you, he has to shift weight on his leading leg. If you are outside of the punching range and inside the kicking range, I believe this is the best "self-defense" distance because your opponent's punch can't reach you but your kick/sweep can reach him (leg is longer than arm), the moment that you detect your opponent has shifted more weight from his back foot into his front foot, you can
> 
> - sweep his leading leg and take him down.
> - stomp on his leading leg knee to interrupt his forward movement.
> ...


Good points. I'll need to experiment with a downward look next time I have some students to "volunteer" as attackers.


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## geezer (Feb 5, 2016)

Look downward? You don't have to watch their feet to see when they are shifting their weight forward. Watching their center works just fine.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2016)

geezer said:


> Look downward? You don't have to watch their feet to see when they are shifting their weight forward. Watching their center works just fine.


The comment was a reference to looking downward to make yourself look submissive and scared, just before opening a can of whup-***.


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## drop bear (Feb 5, 2016)

Buka said:


> I so don't miss those days - except for when I do. Those situations are a lot easier to deal with than they look. It comes with the job. Buncha' guys out drinking on the town. The key is you're sober - and working.


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## drop bear (Feb 5, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> The comment was a reference to looking downward to make yourself look submissive and scared, just before opening a can of whup-***.



Sideways works a bit better.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 5, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Sideways works a bit better.


When your opponent attacks you, you can

1. step side way and let your opponent's attack to miss, or
2. take advantage on his attack and achieve a head on collision that A + B > A.

IMO, 2 is better than 1.


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## Buka (Feb 6, 2016)

drop bear said:


>



Having worked too many years as a bouncer, and most of my Law Enforcement career attached to the banking industry, I can tell you - bankers are absolute scoundrels. I imagine that guy got caught or we wouldn't know he was a banker. Yes?


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## drop bear (Feb 6, 2016)

Buka said:


> Having worked too many years as a bouncer, and most of my Law Enforcement career attached to the banking industry, I can tell you - bankers are absolute scoundrels. I imagine that guy got caught or we wouldn't know he was a banker. Yes?



Yeah he has been done.

James Longworth found guilty over one-punch assault of bouncer Fady Taiba

Not sure how much he will get.


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## Buka (Feb 6, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah he has been done.
> 
> James Longworth found guilty over one-punch assault of bouncer Fady Taiba
> 
> Not sure how much he will get.



I hope he goes to jail and dies there. Sorry if that upsets anyone.


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## drop bear (Feb 6, 2016)

Buka said:


> I hope he goes to jail and dies there. Sorry if that upsets anyone.



Hopefully he will get the 8 year sentence fow coward punching.


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## Buka (Feb 6, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Hopefully he will get the 8 year sentence fow coward punching.



Yes. And serves 7 years 364 days.....and then dies.


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## FriedRice (Feb 7, 2016)

So that's called a "King-Hit" in Australia?


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## drop bear (Feb 7, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> So that's called a "King-Hit" in Australia?



Yeah.


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## Balrog (Feb 20, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, assuming the rest of your body is also saying "non-aggressive".


Correct.  I should have said that as well.


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## geezer (Feb 20, 2016)

Buka said:


> Yes. And serves 7 years 364 days.....and then dies.



Looks like he got sentenced to 4 years and 10 months.

James Longworth jailed for one-punch attack on security guard Fady Taiba


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