# Israeli Krav - Turtle Shell



## TMA17 (May 7, 2018)

So many ways to skin a cat.... I like the idea behind this one.  If you can move fast enough and maintain distance and someone is throwing multiple punches I think this could be effective.  Move in and it sets you up for a nice elbow strike.  Doesn’t show it until 4:29 mark.

I don’t know if this is something he made up or is taught in Israeli Krav.


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## marques (May 7, 2018)

Moving forward is the fastest direction we can move (and keeping balance and some control over the opponent). Head is the main target in the example and in an aggression, generally speaking. So, disregarding the exact position of the arms, I like this one.


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## CB Jones (May 7, 2018)

Don't like it.

Looks like it would work against someone who punches and freezes but against a live fighter?

Wouldn't your opponent just need to lower his level, come up underneath your elbows, wrap his arms around you, pick you up and slam you? or slip an arm triangle on you?

And is it really an elbow strike?  Looks more like a poke with the elbow.

That just looks like a technique that is gonna lead you to getting taken down.

Not to mention you are wide open for body strikes.


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## CB Jones (May 7, 2018)

At best you are going forward into a clinch while giving your opponent double underhooks


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## Matt Bryers (May 7, 2018)

This is a "common" technique found in a few different martial arts systems that really started with Keysi Fighting Method.  It is also used in Defence Lab, Nudda, Crazy Monkey and TRITAC Martial Arts.  Here's another video going over the details of it:





We find it very useful in combat jiu-jitsu applications where you want to close the distance and enter into close-quarters-combat range.  We find it sets up a lot of "dirty boxing" strikes as well as takedowns.

In the video above, with the hand on the inside of the forearm / bicep is called "frame 2" in TRITAC or "shape 2" in Defence Lab.  There are many variations of framing.

Some people find the braced arms concept "stupid" because it leaves an opening to the mid-section, but we use it mostly as an entering tool, multiple attacker defense, or just "oh sh*t' defense.

Since we use this philosophy & methodology in our system a lot, I don't feel bad sharing out YouTube channel, which has many different videos of the applications of frames:
TRITAC Academy


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## Headhunter (May 7, 2018)

I've never seen it in Krav but I've only been doing it since February. But hey it looks good it's more effective than the basic boxing guard


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## TMA17 (May 7, 2018)

I do see the risk of moving forward and then someone trying to take you down.  Like anything else this would have to be tested in sparring.  I think in a street fight though where you may be caught by a flurry of wild punches, this could break the ice if you move forward at same time possibly disrupting the guy punching you.


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## Matt Bryers (May 7, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I do see the risk of moving forward and then someone trying to take you down.  Like anything else this would have to be tested in sparring.  I think in a street fight though where you may be caught by a flurry of wild punches, this could break the ice if you move forward at same time possibly disrupting the guy punching you.


Sparring IS the answer, and is something that is a big part of what we do.  Not just 1 vs 1 MMA sparring, but a variety of different sparring applications including multiple attackers, defend and protect VIP, rolling (grappling), wrestling, and more.  

And in regards to moving forward to a takedowns - well that's what WE want.  We excel in close quarters combat range.  Due to our backgrounds in Japanese Jujitsu, BJJ and wrestling, we like being up close and personal


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## hoshin1600 (May 7, 2018)

out of the two clips posted so far i prefer the way the first clip covers the jaw line better than the second which has the arm above the eyes and on the hair line.

the actual method i have been using for a long time is just the one arm up behind the head.  i have a bias not to use the second arm to cover because i want that arm "live" and being offensive. to commit the two arms seems to me like a commitment to defense that is hard to switch gears back to offense and control.

EDIT:   i should add , there is nothing new under the sun,, traditional styles do this as well


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## Matt Bryers (May 7, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> out of the two clips posted so far i prefer the way the first clip covers the jaw line better than the second which has the arm above the eyes and on the hair line.
> 
> the actual method i have been using for a long time is just the one arm up behind the head.  i have a bias not to use the second arm to cover because i want that arm "live" and being offensive. to commit the two arms seems to me like a commitment to defense that is hard to switch gears back to offense and control.



Just like all martial arts techniques that we all train, there are certain techniques that you will gravitate towards, and ones that I will gravitate towards.  Doesn't mean either of us are "wrong".  It just means that we need to discover what works for us, so that when the sh*t hits the fan, we have an instinctual response that "works".

As our students evolve we work towards what we can "split frame".  This means that our hands are disconnected and allow greater freedom of mobility and countering.  The difference being that a split frame isn't as solid of a structure when someone's trying to take your head off.  But - as students progress they also develop other defensive skills including slips, parries, weaves, etc - and of course the most important fighting skill: footwork.


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## TMA17 (May 7, 2018)

Sounds like a great program Matt!


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## Matt Bryers (May 7, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Sounds like a great program Matt!


Oss - thanks bro.  I appreciate.  If you are curious to see more of what it is, and what we do, we put A LOT of videos up on our YouTube Channel:
TRITAC Academy

Not trying to be spammy, just if you're interested


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## Danny T (May 7, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> So many ways to skin a cat.... I like the idea behind this one.  If you can move fast enough and maintain distance and someone is throwing multiple punches I think this could be effective.  Move in and it sets you up for a nice elbow strike.  Doesn’t show it until 4:29 mark.
> 
> I don’t know if this is something he made up or is taught in Israeli Krav.


Turtle shell defenses and several variations of it have been around for long before Krav Maga or Andy Norman utilized it.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 7, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> So many ways to skin a cat.... I like the idea behind this one.  If you can move fast enough and maintain distance and someone is throwing multiple punches I think this could be effective.  Move in and it sets you up for a nice elbow strike.  Doesn’t show it until 4:29 mark.
> 
> I don’t know if this is something he made up or is taught in Israeli Krav.


Positions like this have their place. If someone is really throwing a flurry without a lot of control, covering up the weak head targets can help when entering. I'm not wild about a method that ties up one arm inside the other - it allows someone to (even accidentally) bind you in that way for a moment, leaving you exposed elsewhere. But nothing is ever perfect. I teach a looser version of a frame (not connected to the head) that solves those problems, but is a bit more exposed to head strikes while being somewhat better at protecting other areas (including takedowns). Everything's a compromise. I don't particularly like the compromises in this approach.


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## drop bear (May 7, 2018)

Jitsers used to be mad keen on this. John will did a video on it somewhere.

Haven't seen it in a while.


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## Buka (May 7, 2018)

We like and use this - similar, actually - both in LEO training and as part of what we do in my art, both as part of an Iron Wall, and in defeating multiple opponents.

I don't particularly like the second arm as part of it though. And I prefer the elbowing arm in a different position, I won't cup my hand behind my neck, we use the hand/palm beside the ear, it makes the attacking elbow longer by several inches. It also allows the hand to be more active reflex or follow up wise.

The problem with the video clip, in my opinion, is it's only shown slowly. There's no real demonstration to how a blitz changes the dynamics of what the opponent can do. And when doing it, it's a full on blitz forward.

"Iron Wall" as we call it, and I don't remember where that term originally came from, consists of that elbow position, the opposite knee coming up the middle as a strike, the opposite hand in a palm heel strike/push to the front of the ribs, and the head lowered into a head butt. The time - is the same time frame as any forward step/blitz, that is One Beat. It is used to enter, to get into the kitchen. [as we used to say]

I love using this wall against an opponent who's raining punch combinations, or thinks he's going to. You have to gear up to properly to train it, though. Motorcycle helmets with a face shield are good, and safety kick head gear for the blitzer for the head butt part of it.

It's my favorite entry. I love entries.

As for "can't the opponent do this or that?" Yes. That's why it's called a fight.


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## hoshin1600 (May 7, 2018)

Matt Bryers said:


> Oss - thanks bro.  I appreciate.  If you are curious to see more of what it is, and what we do, we put A LOT of videos up on our YouTube Channel:
> TRITAC Academy
> 
> Not trying to be spammy, just if you're interested



i will be checking them out.  
where about's in Connecticut are you?  im right up RT84 in Mass.  i need work on my ground game.


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## drop bear (May 7, 2018)

This also is what inspired kung fu Wang's rhino guard.


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## Matt Bryers (May 7, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i will be checking them out.
> where about's in Connecticut are you?  im right up RT84 in Mass.  i need work on my ground game.


Please do!!!! Would love to have you!
We're in Cromwell CT, 10 minutes away from Hartford.
Here is the website: Cage JSA - Cage JSA


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## frank raud (May 7, 2018)

I have been training off and on with Southnarc since 2002, and have been working with the default position during all that time.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Jitsers used to be mad keen on this. John will did a video on it somewhere.
> 
> Haven't seen it in a while.


In the early days of MMA I also saw some wrestlers use it to good advantage. As Matt says, it's useful for someone who hasn't yet developed a strong boxing foundation to keep from getting knocked out while they close the gap to grappling range. I still teach a variation to beginning jiu-jitsu students for that purpose. It takes less time to train a beginner to some sort of basic functionality with this simple approach than with a standard boxing guard.

You don't see it much in modern MMA at the professional level because the sport has progressed so far. A skilled fighter who can box, kick, and grapple will take advantage of the openings the guard leaves. Also, a pro fighter should have enough boxing skill to not need this simplified approach.

Rodney King of Crazy Monkey Boxing developed a similar approach for a different reason. His foundation is in boxing, but he observed that the average beginning student (one without natural talent, who didn't grow up boxing or brawling) would freak out in sparring primarily due to the fear of getting hit in the face. Either their technique would fall apart, or they would quit training, or they would stay in training and take a lot of head trauma by the time they developed good boxing skills. By starting them out with a structure which is very good at protecting the head (although it has other weaknesses), these students were better able to relax, focus on technique, and not develop brain damage before they got good at boxing.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 7, 2018)

Just watched the video. That particular variation of the guard is not one I care for, but the idea is similar to what I was discussing in my previous comment.


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## TMA17 (May 7, 2018)

I figured this may be a popular position in different arts, as Krav really just borrows from other arts.


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## drop bear (May 7, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In the early days of MMA I also saw some wrestlers use it to good advantage. As Matt says, it's useful for someone who hasn't yet developed a strong boxing foundation to keep from getting knocked out while they close the gap to grappling range. I still teach a variation to beginning jiu-jitsu students for that purpose. It takes less time to train a beginner to some sort of basic functionality with this simple approach than with a standard boxing guard.
> 
> You don't see it much in modern MMA at the professional level because the sport has progressed so far. A skilled fighter who can box, kick, and grapple will take advantage of the openings the guard leaves. Also, a pro fighter should have enough boxing skill to not need this simplified approach.
> 
> Rodney King of Crazy Monkey Boxing developed a similar approach for a different reason. His foundation is in boxing, but he observed that the average beginning student (one without natural talent, who didn't grow up boxing or brawling) would freak out in sparring primarily due to the fear of getting hit in the face. Either their technique would fall apart, or they would quit training, or they would stay in training and take a lot of head trauma by the time they developed good boxing skills. By starting them out with a structure which is very good at protecting the head (although it has other weaknesses), these students were better able to relax, focus on technique, and not develop brain damage before they got good at boxing.



For MMA the change levels probably solves entering in to the clinch a bit more efficiently. Rather than wading in to punches.


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## frank raud (May 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Don't like it.
> 
> Looks like it would work against someone who punches and freezes but against a live fighter?
> 
> ...


There are several faults that I see with how the technique is being shown. I don't like the hand on bicep, as I think it would be too easy to trap both hands.  I think standing upright is not the best way to be taking a power shot, better to sink your weight to be able to take the brunt of the force against you. Whether you want to think of it as a boxer's crouch, or nose over toes like a football player.
I would hope that if you are fighting against a live fighter, that you would not just puts your hands up in a blocking position and think it is over. There are multiple techniques you can transition to. Look at the ISR Matrix video I posted. Is it really an elbow strike? I weigh 220lbs. If I drive into you with a leading elbow, I'm doubting you will volunteer your face as a target. I've been hit with that elbow on numerous times, it sucks.


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## drop bear (May 7, 2018)

The john will version.


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## Martial D (May 7, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> So many ways to skin a cat.... I like the idea behind this one.  If you can move fast enough and maintain distance and someone is throwing multiple punches I think this could be effective.  Move in and it sets you up for a nice elbow strike.  Doesn’t show it until 4:29 mark.
> 
> I don’t know if this is something he made up or is taught in Israeli Krav.


I can see a lot of problems with that double elbow charge thing.  It exposes the entire body, if the other guy knows thing one about wrestling or juijitsu it's over for turtle guy. Also knees to the body. Also seems to rely on a stationary opponent.

Like most krav I've seen, this seems to be reliant on a cooperative and unskilled opponent.


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## Anarax (May 8, 2018)

Firstly, I hope the guy who got beaten down *IS* still alive. There's definitely a line somewhere during the altercation that those guys crossed. That being said, when you smack someone sitting down in the back of the neck, stick your chest out, put your face one inch away from someone trying to deescalate it then stand over the guy you slapped, you were obviously looking for a confrontation. Again, those guys took it *WAY* too far.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

It’s probably safer if you know your opponent. If he lacks a power hook, the body shots aren’t a grave concern, since you’re moving in fast.


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## marques (May 8, 2018)

Matt Bryers said:


> This is a "common" technique found in a few different martial arts systems that really started with Keysi Fighting Method.  It is also used in Defence Lab, ...
> 
> Some people find the braced arms concept "stupid" because it leaves an opening to the mid-section, but we use it mostly as an entering tool, multiple attacker defense, or just "oh sh*t' defense.


It is a bit risky to tell where something started, but my point is KFM and DL are examples of what I don’t like. They overuse it. More than an instant and we’re killed by grapplers, kickers or good boxers.

On the other hand, the second paragraph is a perfect example of where I would use it. The “bad guy” is smiling, but with unclear instentions... short(ending) distance... he moves an arm and BANG! It doesn’t matter which punch, it doesn’t matter even if it was to be a punch or a push. It is done (quite easily even if I am tired or drunk) I got him by surprise and at short distance I am where I am happy and can control/finish the situation from there easier than from a longer distance (assuming I was able to defend the first punch).


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## Matt Bryers (May 9, 2018)

In regards to Defence Lab and KFM - yes, they ABSOLUTELY overuse it.  It's like the only thing they know!  When I was part of Defence Lab, it got to a point where I was like "is there anything more this besides shapes / frames???".  I did find the overall concept useful,  but do NOT see it as the ONLY answer.

I believe that as in ALL martial arts techniques, you have to find something that works for you and makes sense.  The framing concept makes sense to me, we use it in sparring / training all the time. Students who learn it, love it.  

It's funny, Gilbert Melendez (UFC Fighter) came to my location for an impromptu seminar.  He was visiting ESPN in CT and is a good friend of one my students who is an employee there.  We were asking him what are some concepts / techniques he uses to "crash the line", and he basically showed us framing.  Of course this is not the only thing he does, but it was a concept that he teaches and uses.  So it's hard to say that this in not a viable option, it's just a concept that needs to be trained like anything else, and if it "fits your style" of fighting - then use it!

I did this video a while ago to show some of the multiple attacker drills we use in TRITAC.  It's half "fun" and half real, but it's another example of some of the applications we use:






Finally - I am not trying to necessarily "defend" the use of frames - I'm just saying that in my experience, I do find it useful for combat.

Oss.


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## Runs With Fire (May 9, 2018)

We do a variation of this. The second hand holds the top of your forearm instead of the bicep.  my first instructor called "the Krav cover" or "panic cover"  and it's only used to close a foot or two of distance. it is kind of a panic last ditch to change it up sort of thing.


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## frank raud (May 10, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I can see a lot of problems with that double elbow charge thing.  It exposes the entire body, if the other guy knows thing one about wrestling or juijitsu it's over for turtle guy. Also knees to the body. Also seems to rely on a stationary opponent.
> 
> Like most krav I've seen, this seems to be reliant on a cooperative and unskilled opponent.






  Here is a BJJ black belt, judo brown belt and all around bad *** teaching the shield, as he does in most of his classes. If a black belt under Chris Hauteur and regional director under Matt Thornton finds value in it, perhaps it is not as dangerous to use against a grappler as you may think. Matt Thornton teaches the technique as well. Again I don't like the variation that is shown in the original post, but that doesn't mean the technique is not valid.


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## Martial D (May 10, 2018)

frank raud said:


> Here is a BJJ black belt, judo brown belt and all around bad *** teaching the shield, as he does in most of his classes. If a black belt under Chris Hauteur and regional director under Matt Thornton finds value in it, perhaps it is not as dangerous to use against a grappler as you may think. Matt Thornton teaches the technique as well. Again I don't like the variation that is shown in the original post, but that doesn't mean the technique is not valid.


Ok, I watched your video. Then I scratched my head and watched it again. Guys working open guard. Guys working arm and collar ties. Guys doing some (questionable) gun defenses.

I sure didn't see anyone tuck their elbows in to their face and rush in like that, or anything similar. Are you sure you posted the right video?


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## TMA17 (May 10, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> We do a variation of this. The second hand holds the top of your forearm instead of the bicep.  my first instructor called "the Krav cover" or "panic cover"  and it's only used to close a foot or two of distance. it is kind of a panic last ditch to change it up sort of thing.



Thanks for the explanation.  That makes sense to use in that situation as a last ditch effort.


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## Runs With Fire (May 10, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Thanks for the explanation.  That makes sense to use in that situation as a last ditch effort.


There's more to it than just a simple double cover the way I was taught.  It is very risky if not done very well.  I think a good explanation is video worthy.  I will look for my camera when I get home.  Will be posted in the Krav section after I stop by McDonalds for wifi sometime tomorrow or Saturday


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## Gerry Seymour (May 10, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ok, I watched your video. Then I scratched my head and watched it again. Guys working open guard. Guys working arm and collar ties. Guys doing some (questionable) gun defenses.
> 
> I sure didn't see anyone tuck their elbows in to their face and rush in like that, or anything similar. Are you sure you posted the right video?


Prior to the video segments, there were pictures of the frame. I didn't see anything in the video.


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## TMA17 (May 10, 2018)

Runs With Fire said:


> There's more to it than just a simple double cover the way I was taught.  It is very risky if not done very well.  I think a good explanation is video worthy.  I will look for my camera when I get home.  Will be posted in the Krav section after I stop by McDonalds for wifi sometime tomorrow or Saturday



I’ll be curious if this is taught in the IKMA school I may attend.


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## frank raud (May 10, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ok, I watched your video. Then I scratched my head and watched it again. Guys working open guard. Guys working arm and collar ties. Guys doing some (questionable) gun defenses.
> 
> I sure didn't see anyone tuck their elbows in to their face and rush in like that, or anything similar. Are you sure you posted the right video?


If you look at around the 35-45 second mark, you will see photos (prior to the video)


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## frank raud (May 10, 2018)

Paul Gomez(RIP) demonstrating the fence to default position(shell) to striking to weapons access.


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## frank raud (May 10, 2018)

Jerry Wetzel  explaining the default position


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## Kababayan (May 10, 2018)

I don't know how to quote multiple threads, so I'll just reference individual responses here.  I use the technique in my system and like it for many reasons, including that it follows a person's natural tendency to react, which is that both hands go up to protect the head and the shoulders shrug. Through a series of simple modifications you get to the particular cover shown in the video.  It somewhat, although not so obvious, follows Tony Blauer's research on a body's natural way to react against a punch. Blauer uses Outside 90, but if you follow the same reaction principles that he follows, you can invert the arms and turn it into this particular cover.  I don't know if I am saying it correctly; in my head it makes sense. That being said, I would like to respond to a few things that were said in the previous posts, but again, I don't know how to multi-quote, so I'll just reference them:

- This technique is not a Krav technique (at least not from the original Imi Lichtenfeld himself). I have seen Krav do a cover block, but not a both arm cover.  There's always a chance that I'm wrong about that, and maybe someone from the Big Four organizations has implemented it.  But I don't think Imi included it in his curriculum as it is shown. I learned the technique from Panantukan.  Paul Vunak uses a version of it and it is also a part of "gunting" from Filipino boxing.

- I think the way that it is show it is too tight for my taste. The version I use covers the ear and head, with the other hand going and on top of the forearm. It is immediately followed up by a forearm strike to the throat...knees, hammers, etc. Since he is included on this thread, I do like Matt Byers' version of doing a headbutt after the cover (If I remember correctly, he has a technique that does that).  It's a hidden headbutt and protects the person doing the headbutt (as it hits with the top of the head and not the forehead.)  Most people headbutts incorrectly and risk knocking themselves out...but that's a discussion for another thread. 

- I do like that the guy in the video referenced that it is not a "perfect defense."  I think in the martial arts we, as experienced MA's, can get a little too technical with techniques and we comment on techniques as if they should be the "absolute end-all".  Someone here referenced (I forgot who it was...gp? Tony?) "what happens if they do this?  It's a fight. It may happen."  I am paraphrasing, but it was a great comment.  We all know that not every technique works in every scenario, but some martial artists tend to critique individual techniques as if they are supposed to work in every scenario.  Most higher ranking techniques are "counters-to-counters" and may not ever be used in common self defense scenarios.  A great technique can be adapted to multiple scenarios, but many techniques are very scenario-specific, and they still have a place. 

- Regarding grappling, I was taught a version of the technique in my bjj class.  It was a single cover; not a double cover, but it was based on the same principle.  I was also taught the same move in my Krav class, but the instructor is also a Gracie student. 

- Regarding the technique being "tested in sparring" I think that some techniques don't lend themselves well to sparring.  I think some of the videos that were posted show that the technique can be effective in scenario-training, but the effectiveness of an individual technique in sparring can be influenced by what type of sparring is done (tag/point sparring with gloves, half contact, proper respect given to a block or strike, etc.).  Another way to do the technique is to try to have the opponent's punch hit your elbow.  This could result in a hand break, something that sparring wouldn't be able to reflect.  Sparring is so important, but not all techniques lend themselves well to being tested during sparring matches.  

I didn't mean for this response to go so long.  I guess it's because I haven't been on MT for a week.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 10, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> I don't know how to quote multiple threads, so I'll just reference individual responses here.  I use the technique in my system and like it for many reasons, including that it follows a person's natural tendency to react, which is that both hands go up to protect the head and the shoulders shrug. Through a series of simple modifications you get to the particular cover shown in the video.  It somewhat, although not so obvious, follows Tony Blauer's research on a body's natural way to react against a punch. Blauer uses Outside 90, but if you follow the same reaction principles that he follows, you can invert the arms and turn it into this particular cover.  I don't know if I am saying it correctly; in my head it makes sense. That being said, I would like to respond to a few things that were said in the previous posts, but again, I don't know how to multi-quote, so I'll just reference them:
> 
> - This technique is not a Krav technique (at least not from the original Imi Lichtenfeld himself). I have seen Krav do a cover block, but not a both arm cover.  There's always a chance that I'm wrong about that, and maybe someone from the Big Four organizations has implemented it.  But I don't think Imi included it in his curriculum as it is shown. I learned the technique from Panantukan.  Paul Vunak uses a version of it and it is also a part of "gunting" from Filipino boxing.
> 
> ...


I do think this is one of the techniques that doesn't thrive in the often-cautious context of sparring (agreeing with your statement). An opponent carefully working to control distance will make use of the weaknesses in this cover. Someone coming in hard to beat the hell out of you (angry guy you bumped into kind of thing) would be a better scenario for this. There are some situations even in sparring where this might be used, if grappling is part of the mix. My primary objection to it is the tightness and how it restricts the arms. A moderated version would make it easier to instinctively use either one or both arms (depending upon the situation) and transition in and out more smoothly.


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