# Is it common for flexible people later in life to have bad muscle memory from when they weren't?



## Acronym (Nov 29, 2020)

In other words kicking the same as when you didn't have full range of motion...

Chuck Norris was only able to do the full vertical splits in his 30s, yet he still looked as stiff as when he couldn't. Not saying he was bad but he certainly showed stiffness in a lot techniques.

So is this muscle memory that he didn't pay attention to while he became fully flexible or is the full vertical splits not a guarante that your technique is going to be that much better?

I mean why wouldn't it given that it accounts for full range of motion?

Edit: Move it to general martial arts discussion.


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## jobo (Nov 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> In other words kicking the same as when you didn't have full range of motion...
> 
> Chuck Norris was only able to do the full vertical splits in his 30s, yet he still looked as stiff as when he couldn't. Not saying he was bad but he certainly showed stiffness in a lot techniques.
> 
> ...


muscle memory is oft quoted and nearly always miss understood, muscles do not have memory, your central nervous system does

some people are just more flexible ? less stiff than others, it can possibly be improved, but seldom to the point they match someone naturally more flexible who is also working to improve their flexibility

the splits has very little to do with how high you can kick, how good your techniques is, its a party trick and not much more

good technique is being able to land kicks that hurt, improvement that dont result in more kicks landing that hurt more are not improvements at all, how stiff you look is completely irreverent to that

my kicking height is strangely tied to if i have a target or not and how hard im hitting, no target / little umph equals no height at all, thats my CNS restricting movement. as CN was aiming at nothing at all in his TV shows maybe he had the same issue ? as he was certainty a more than competent fighter ( nb he was also pretty old


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## dvcochran (Nov 30, 2020)

You are going to have to rephrase your question. I am not at all certain what you are asking.


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## punisher73 (Dec 2, 2020)

Jobo is correct, "muscle memory" is just related the neurology of how often you have trained that technique.  To state it in layman's terms, the more you do a technique, the stronger the connection becomes to perform that action.  So, if you have truly ingrained a technique/skill than it comes back much faster due to the hardwiring with your nervous system than it took to originally get it.

Your body will always try to reach "homeostasis", which is a balance to maximize resources.  For example, weightlifting puts a strain on your body, so your body adapts and makes itself stronger so it doesn't expend as much energy to do the task.  But, if you stop lifting, the body doesn't need the extra muscle anymore, which requires alot of energy (calories) to sustain so you will go back to your "starting self".

For flexibility, again, as Jobo pointed out relies on your CNS and "puts the brakes" on you when it perceives danger to prevent you from straining a muscle.  This is why when under anesthesia most people could have their legs moved into a full split position.  Here is a test for yourself, if you can sit and move one leg out to a 90 degree angle than you are capable of the full splits, it is just a neuro issue to relax the stretch reflex/response.

So, back to your original question.  Many people are very stiff due to sitting around all day, if they stop stretching as much as they did, they will go back to how they would be.  If they had little natural flexibility, then they will still be stiff.  If they had more natural flexibility it will go back to that (taking into account age progression and loss).

Also, people are built differently.  There was an older guy in my class that when we did a butterfly stretch could put his knees flat on the ground and couldn't understand why we did the stretch.  But, he couldn't get past his knees trying to touch his toes when trying to do a hamstring stretch.


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## Acronym (Dec 2, 2020)

No it is not.

"[*Muscle memory* is a form of procedur *memory* that involves consolidating a specific motor task into *memory* through repetition"

That's a QUOTE.


punisher73 said:


> Jobo is correct, "muscle memory" is just related the neurology of how often you have trained that technique.  To state it in layman's terms, the more you do a technique, the stronger the connection becomes to perform that action.  So, if you have truly ingrained a technique/skill than it comes back much faster due to the hardwiring with your nervous system than it took to originally get it.
> 
> Your body will always try to reach "homeostasis", which is a balance to maximize resources.  For example, weightlifting puts a strain on your body, so your body adapts and makes itself stronger so it doesn't expend as much energy to do the task.  But, if you stop lifting, the body doesn't need the extra muscle anymore, which requires alot of energy (calories) to sustain so you will go back to your "starting self".
> 
> ...


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## Acronym (Dec 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> You are going to have to rephrase your question. I am not at all certain what you are asking.



If you have suboptimal technique due to stiffness, is it common that this stays with you even when you no longer have this obstacle, because your body remembers doing it the way you did when you did not have as good flexibility


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## Acronym (Dec 2, 2020)

jobo said:


> muscle memory is oft quoted and nearly always miss understood, muscles do not have memory, your central nervous system does
> 
> some people are just more flexible ? less stiff than others, it can possibly be improved, but seldom to the point they match someone naturally more flexible who is also working to improve their flexibility
> 
> ...



It's such a shame you never joined K1 with your delusional Karate power.


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## dvcochran (Dec 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> If you have suboptimal technique due to stiffness, is it common that this stays with you even when you no longer have this obstacle, because your body remembers doing it the way you did when you did not have as good flexibility


As others have stated, flexibility is different person to person and some have to work at it more diligently than others, throughout their life. So yes, flexibility will affect technique and must be worked. Thing of it as in integral part of training.


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## Acronym (Dec 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> As others have stated, flexibility is different person to person and some have to work at it more diligently than others, throughout their life. So yes, flexibility will affect technique and must be worked. Thing of it as in integral part of training.



One more time then. If YOU NO LONGER have stiffness, will your body still kick as when you were stiff, without you knowing about it?

Do you understand know?


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## jobo (Dec 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> One more time then. If YOU NO LONGER have stiffness, will your body still kick as when you were stiff, without you knowing about it?
> 
> Do you understand know?


well yes one more time, stiffness comes from the cns( if your young)


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## dvcochran (Dec 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> One more time then. If YOU NO LONGER have stiffness, will your body still kick as when you were stiff, without you knowing about it?
> 
> Do you understand know?


One more time; quit watching videos, get your ash off the couch and stretch/exercise. The relationship is near 1:1. The more you exercise the easier things will be. The "you no longer have stiffness", which is exactly what you said but not what I believe you meant, while I have no doubt is a real thing is completely up to you to make better. 
Asking questions and watching videos without actually Trying to fix the issue is beyond useless.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No it is not.
> 
> "[*Muscle memory* is a form of procedur *memory* that involves consolidating a specific motor task into *memory* through repetition"
> 
> That's a QUOTE.


Quoting something without providing explanation of the quote, is _almost_ as useless as using the fact that it's a quote as your argument without saying who it's a quote of. I could find a quote supporting just about anything that I want. For those wondering, the quote is part of the first sentence of this wiki page Muscle memory - Wikipedia.

The next two sentences, "When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed with little to no conscious effort. This process decreases the need for attention and creates maximum efficiency within the motor and memory systems.", sound remarkably similar to @punisher73 's claim "To state it in layman's terms, the more you do a technique, the stronger the connection becomes to perform that action. So, if you have truly ingrained a technique/skill than it comes back much faster due to the hardwiring with your nervous system than it took to originally get it." that he's apparently disputing with the first sentence.


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## punisher73 (Dec 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No it is not.
> 
> "[*Muscle memory* is a form of procedur *memory* that involves consolidating a specific motor task into *memory* through repetition"
> 
> That's a QUOTE.



Yes, from wikipedia. NOT a scientific journal.  The process is called "myelination" if you want to get technical.  It has to do with your neural pathways. Which would be what we are concerned with in stretching.

Bodybuilders will refer to "muscle memory" as well, which is a slightly different process.  It has to do with "hypertrophy" (splitting of the muscle cells) and if they just shrink in size and retain their nucleus to regrow.  You regain size/strength very quickly because the cell has already split and it just regrows in size.  But, the muscles don't "remember" how to do a squat/bench press etc. That is all your neurology.  This is the reason why brand new beginners gain strength very quickly, the initial gains are due to better neuropathways in doing the task.

There is no actual "muscle memory" in a physical task.  Your muscle cells only have one function.  They either contract or they relax.  They don't "remember" anything.  All of the rest of it is neurology.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 2, 2020)

jobo said:


> my kicking height is strangely tied to if i have a target or not and how hard im hitting, no target / little umph equals no height at all, thats my CNS restricting movement. as CN was aiming at nothing at all in his TV shows maybe he had the same issue ? as he was certainty a more than competent fighter ( nb he was also pretty old


I have the same issue, thought I was alone on that. I can't kick nearly as high if there's not a pad there, or a body/head. Once it's there my kick is a lot more fluid and I can kick higher. The fluidity aspect of it really shows with a roundhouse kick; it's like my body knows there's nothing there and doesn't want to whiff so it just comes out awkward/stiff without a target. I could definitely see this being the case for Norris.


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## dvcochran (Dec 2, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I have the same issue, thought I was alone on that. I can't kick nearly as high if there's not a pad there, or a body/head. Once it's there my kick is a lot more fluid and I can kick higher. The fluidity aspect of it really shows with a roundhouse kick; it's like my body knows there's nothing there and doesn't want to whiff so it just comes out awkward/stiff without a target. I could definitely see this being the case for Norris.


I am with you. For me part of the 'air' kick is the fear of hyperextension. There is just less mental motivation when there is nothing there to kick.


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## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I have the same issue, thought I was alone on that. I can't kick nearly as high if there's not a pad there, or a body/head.



Are you sure it's just not the fact that you aren't sufficiently warmed up at home and thus your body locks up? I would say what you are describing is not normal.


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## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> There is no actual "muscle memory" in a physical task.  Your muscle cells only have one function.  They either contract or they relax.  They don't "remember" anything.  All of the rest of it is neurology.



That's not true. Once I started to kick with open hips, which I never did in my first years, it always stayed with my mechanics even when I stopped training for 6+ months and when I felt a lot stiffer.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Are you sure it's just not the fact that you aren't sufficiently warmed up at home and thus your body locks up? I would say what you are describing is not normal.


Nope, since it's not just at home. And I've got pads at home that I use as well. The only difference is whether or not there is a pad/person in front of me.


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## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Nope, since it's not just at home. And I've got pads at home that I use as well. The only difference is whether or not there is a pad/person in front of me.



Do you have any clips?


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## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)

Here is Chuck post flexibility. 


His kicks are still stiff.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Do you have any clips?


Nope. Don't typically take videos of myself, and not sure it'd be worth it at this point with me not going to the dojo/it supposed to be snowing where I live to take one.
I'm also not too concerned about it, particularly now I know I'm not the only one with the issue, and it probably is mental more than anything (body doesn't want to whiff having whiffed in the past).


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That's not true. Once I started to kick with open hips, which I never did in my first years, it always stayed with my mechanics even when I stopped training for 6+ months and when I felt a lot stiffer.


That's the neurology of it. A lot of it, IIRC, comes from synaptic pruning. A very interesting topic to look into if you haven't before.


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## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Nope. Don't typically take videos of myself, and not sure it'd be worth it at this point with me not going to the dojo/it supposed to be snowing where I live to take one.
> I'm also not too concerned about it, particularly now I know I'm not the only one with the issue, and it probably is mental more than anything (body doesn't want to whiff having whiffed in the past).



 But how do you know your technique is correct if you never film it? I


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## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That's the neurology of it. A lot of it, IIRC, comes from synaptic pruning. A very interesting topic to look into if you haven't before.



It's very interesting. I thought I would revert back to the way I kicked when I was stiff as a beginner


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But how do you know your technique is correct if you never film it? I


That's a weird question. How do you think people knew their technique was correct before cameras existed/were popular?


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## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That's a weird question. How do you think people knew their technique was correct before cameras existed/were popular?



They didn't. Hence why a lot of them did things wrong without knowing it and thought they looked good. 

Here is a pretty good example of that.


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## isshinryuronin (Dec 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I have the same issue, thought I was alone on that. I can't kick nearly as high if there's not a pad there, or a body/head.



 You are not alone.  I have a theory on why; part neurological, part psychological.  Much of our brain is devoted to vision and many of our body's functions are tied into what we see.

When we try to kick high with no target to see, the leg gets a "generalized" instruction.  Like "proceed in a northerly direction."  When we do the same with an actual visual target, our body gets "specific" instruction, like having GPS coordinates.  Now the kicking leg has an "anchor" to be drawn to.  This, along with relaxation, allows the kick to go higher.

I don't have the background to scientifically explain this phenomenon, but to me, it intuitively seems a way to describe it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> They didn't. Hence why a lot of them did things wrong without knowing it and thought they looked good.
> 
> Here is a pretty good example of that.
> 
> View attachment 23384


So first, people still do things wrong all the time. 

But as an answer to your question-I started training at like 3/4. The first 15/20 years I trained under people who became pickier about my technique, and would point out whenever my technique was bad. I know they did so accurately by seeing their changes to others' technique. I also had mirrors around me for the most part, so I could see the results. I could also feel if things were working through drills and light & full contact sparring-if it didn't work, either I was doing something wrong, or the technique was bad. If it did work, that probably means my technique is good. There are also drills that only work if you do the tech correctly. (I think I mentioned on here one with a wall to make sure your elbows aren't flaring before). 

Then I also started training with people of a lot of different styles, while crosstraining as well, and sparring those people. This provided more feedback when new teachers would look at my tech and I could also try them against people from different styles. 

At some point, I reached a point where I can 'feel' when techniques aren't right. It's tough to explain but your body just knows when you're doing it wrong. That might be a result of synaptic pruning/'muscle memory', might be just that muscles or more sensitive to unnatural/harmful movements, I'm not sure. I still get (or got before this year) feedback on my tech, as when you go too long without feedback (or video if you don't have feedback as an option), your habits can change a bit, but for the most part this year I've been trusting my body and ability to have proper technique.


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## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> So first, people still do things wrong all the time.
> 
> But as an answer to your question-I started training at like 3/4. The first 15/20 years I trained under people who became pickier about my technique, and would point out whenever my technique was bad. I know they did so accurately by seeing their changes to others' technique. I also had mirrors around me for the most part, so I could see the results. I could also feel if things were working through drills and light & full contact sparring-if it didn't work, either I was doing something wrong, or the technique was bad. If it did work, that probably means my technique is good. There are also drills that only work if you do the tech correctly. (I think I mentioned on here one with a wall to make sure your elbows aren't flaring before).
> 
> ...



In my experience, asking other students and the instructor if something looks good is not sufficient. I filmed for the first time and all I saw was bent legs and closed hips which nobody told me in the school. People just look after themselves at the end of the day. 

But if you have a mirro and have space to move around it's the same thing as filming.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> In my experience, asking other students and the instructor if something looks good is not sufficient. I filmed for the first time and all I saw was bent legs and closed hips which nobody told me in the school. People just look after themselves at the end of the day.
> 
> But if you have a mirro and have space to move around it's the same thing as filming.


That may be an issue with the school more than anything else. That's why I pointed out that I trained with people from multiple different styles/schools. So if one taught me something that was bad/less than ideal, I'd see an alternative, or have bad form pointed out, when I went to a different school. At least in my experience the line "People just look after themselves at the end of the day.". Everyone is always helping each other out. 

The other part is that this is why resistance and at least some full contact/hard contact sparring helps. If you keep getting countered whenever you do X, rather than just move to Y, figure out what's wrong with X that it's not working for you. This is the point I would use a video I guess if I needed to, to video the sparring and see exactly why/how I was doing something wrong.


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## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> At some point, I reached a point where I can 'feel' when techniques aren't right. It



Punching yes.. Kicking no way. You can't see your own hips and frame. I looked like absolute dog **** but had no clue, and I even thought I was good, let alone average.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Punching yes.. Kicking no way. You can't see your own hips and frame. I looked like absolute dog **** but had no clue i even thought I was good, let alone average.


I said feel, not see. Again this is after you're technique is already good. For reference I hit this point probably around age 21, so training for 18 years (8 years since I was a teenager which is where I consider it starting), and the last 3 years of that I was training and/or sparring about 3 hours a day most days.


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## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I said feel, not see. Again this is after you're technique is already good. For reference I hit this point probably around age 21, so training for 18 years (8 years since I was a teenager which is where I consider it starting), and the last 3 years of that I was training and/or sparring about 3 hours a day most days.



If you have a lay off and then start again you might think you are doing things the way you did before even though you aren't. The synaptic processes you were referring to do not store everything 100%. Your body slags with inactivity in ways you don't even feel once you are back. For instance fully turning over the hip in the roundhouse kick is a typical thing that gets lost with inactivity even though you could have sworn you did it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> If you have a lay off and then start again you might think you are doing things the way you did before even though you aren't. The synaptic processes you were referring to do not store everything 100%. Your body slags with inactivity in ways you don't even feel once you are back. For instance fully turning over the hip in the roundhouse kick is a typical thing that gets lost with inactivity even though you could have sworn you did it.


Yup, absolutely. That's when you've (or I've, since you use video) have to go to a gym/dojo for a couple sessions or so to be made aware of what I'm doing wrong. That doesn't happen to me too often though since even when I'm not training somewhere, I try to be consistent at home..the bigger issue is when I change focus (my focus lately has been punching and weapons, I'm sure when I go back my kicks and grappling will need a lot more tune up).


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## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yup, absolutely. That's when you've (or I've, since you use video) have to go to a gym/dojo for a couple sessions or so to be made aware of what I'm doing wrong. That doesn't happen to me too often though since even when I'm not training somewhere, I try to be consistent at home..the bigger issue is when I change focus (my focus lately has been punching and weapons, I'm sure when I go back my kicks and grappling will need a lot more tune up).



You can maintain it for a while by shadow kicking randomly, but it reaches a point eventually where the leg muscles just aren't there anymore and you either lose power or form or both. Getting back is fast but not fast enough to defend yourself. You don't have kick trials in a self defense situation, were you to ever need it


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## jobo (Dec 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You can maintain it for a while by shadow kicking randomly, but it reaches a point eventually where the leg muscles just aren't there anymore and you either lose power or form or both. Getting back is fast but not fast enough to defend yourself. You don't have kick trials in a self defense situation, were you to ever need it


you MAY loose some fine motor skills with a lay off, but kicking someone is rather gross motorskills, which take years to diminish, if they dimish at all, if you loose a little flexability kick lower, it still hurts


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## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> you MAY loose some fine motor skills with a lay off, but kicking someone is rather gross motorskills, which take years to diminish, if they dimish at all, if you loose a little flexability kick lower, it still hurts



That's why I wrote that he doesn’t get kick trials. If he had 15 kicks to prepare, then get to kick, he could probably dust off a decent attacker. So it's not so much that it's lost but that it needs to be retrieved


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## jobo (Dec 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That's why I wrote that he doesn’t get kick trials. If he had 15 kicks to prepare, then get to kick, he could probably dust a decent attacker. So it's not so much that it's lost but that it needs to be retrieved


yes and im saying that a lay off of a few months will have almost no detrimental effect on kicking someone or any other ingrained gross motor skill, i can still use a hammer after a couple of years off, using a hammer as a precision bendibg tool arcurate to half a mm, takes a short time to recover, just wacking thibgs im fine


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## Acronym (Dec 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> yes and im saying that a lay off of a few months will have almost no detrimental effect on kicking someone or any other ingrained gross motor skill, i can still use a hammer after a couple of years off, using a hammer as a precision bendibg tool arcurate to half a mm, takes a short time to recover, just wacking thibgs im fine



I'm not either. 3 months is usually fine.


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## dvcochran (Dec 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Are you sure it's just not the fact that you aren't sufficiently warmed up at home and thus your body locks up? I would say what you are describing is not normal.


No, it is normal. However I feel it is harder to gauge the actual kick when kicking air. It may actually be just as high/strong but it is harder to measure this.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You can maintain it for a while by shadow kicking randomly, but it reaches a point eventually where the leg muscles just aren't there anymore and you either lose power or form or both. Getting back is fast but not fast enough to defend yourself. You don't have kick trials in a self defense situation, were you to ever need it


Honestly, I don't train at this point to defend myself. I believe SD is very much based on mindset, experience, soft skills, and physicality, then gross skills that don't go away behind those, and  the technical skills in a distant sixth.

I'm confident in my experience, I've forged the soft skills under fire, and like @jobo said, the gross skills are pretty much there at this point. My side kick might get sloppy but it'll still work, for instance. So the training I do at this point is for enjoyment more than anything else. If my goal was SD, my main focus should be on strength training and sprinting.


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## dvcochran (Dec 17, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Honestly, I don't train at this point to defend myself. I believe SD is very much based on mindset, experience, soft skills, and physicality, then gross skills that don't go away behind those, and  the technical skills in a distant sixth.
> 
> I'm confident in my experience, I've forged the soft skills under fire, and like @jobo said, the gross skills are pretty much there at this point. My side kick might get sloppy but it'll still work, for instance. So the training I do at this point is for enjoyment more than anything else. If my goal was SD, my main focus should be on strength training and sprinting.


Agree. And I would have to add that I always carry, usually open.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 17, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Agree. And I would have to add that I always carry, usually open.


New York makes this more difficult. And I came to the decision that I'll wait until we move out to get my license, since it's a pain from what I can tell in NY, and there's no reciprocity with other states anyway


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