# Friend Who Smokes



## adrenaline (Oct 21, 2002)

One of my best friend has started smoking everytime he thinks there's pressure on him and when he's stressed out. When I'm with him, I stop him from smoking but when I'm not there he smokes. I've tried to explain to him that he can get cancer and other diseases. It's really strange because he goes to a very good school and learns all about the problems caused by smoking, and yet he doesn't stop smoking. 

Any advice on how to stop my friends from continuing smoking would be helpful. 

Thanks.


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## fist of fury (Oct 21, 2002)

Punch him in the face everytime he lights up.


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## adrenaline (Oct 21, 2002)

Could do that, but than again he'd probably punch me back!!


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## GouRonin (Oct 21, 2002)

Then kick him in the nuts instead!


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 21, 2002)

Can of pure o2.... spray it at his lit cancer stick...then run....it's an explosive combination.

:asian:


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## Master of Blades (Oct 21, 2002)

I think what people have got to get into there heads is that you cant change peoples opinions. You can make them think but you cant just change there opinions cuz you think its right. I could go into Detail but I dont think you guys wanna hear it all..........


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## GouRonin (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *I think what people have got to get into there heads is that you cant change peoples opinions.*



YOu shut up and start thinking what I tell you to think...


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *YOu shut up and start thinking what I tell you to think...
> *




*NOPE! I WILL NOT !* 
UH-Huh You cannot make me.

_Gou is Great ! _

*NOPE! I WILL *not
UH-Huh You cannot make me.

_Gou is Great ! _

*NOPE! I *will not
UH-Huh You cannot make me.

_Gou is Great ! _

*Nope!* I will not
UH-Huh You cannot make me.

_Gou is Great ! _


Gou Ronin is Great

Gou Ronin is Great

_ I must fight this feeling _

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:  

Rich


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## GouRonin (Oct 21, 2002)

...and so...my cult...er...following...begins...


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## Master of Blades (Oct 21, 2002)

Gou,

Im still not listening.......maybe we should spar it out cuz in my personal opinion I dont think your worthy of a following. I think rich should get one cuz he is an honourable guy! Unlike you So  in the words of many great movies

"your kung fu no good, mine better. Lets fight!"

I added the lets fight but who cares :shrug: Actually come to think of it....I probably made that saying up.........


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## GouRonin (Oct 21, 2002)

Because you'll be on pure oxygen when I iz done wit ya!


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## Master of Blades (Oct 21, 2002)

You didnt even rise to my post. How........dissapointing. Oh well anyone else wanna rise to it? Just swap your name with Gou and we will get started....... :shrug: :asian:


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## GouRonin (Oct 21, 2002)

I insulted you.

Right about now you must be feeling woozy from my no-touch knock out power that I am using on you.
:rofl:


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## Carbon2 (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> 
> *"your kung fu no good, mine better. Lets fight!"*



Are you putting down the way Asians speak english?


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## GouRonin (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Carbon2 _
> *Are you putting down the way Asians speak english? *



No, i think he was just making fun of you.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> 
> *Gou,
> 
> ...




Master of Blades,

Thank you for your opinion of me.

This site does have a sense of humor. Some can take it too far, and I am also capable of that act myself. It seems you have a good sense of humor also. I hope you enjoy your stay here on this forum.

Train Well

Rich


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## Master of Blades (Oct 22, 2002)

Gou,
         I realise now that my Kung Fu is inferior to yours. I apoligise for ever doubting in you and I hope I am still allowed to follow you around like a mindless numbskull

Carbon 2,
                I agree with Gou, I was just making fun of you :rofl: 

And last but not least Rich,
                                           Thanks for that comment much appreciated. 

Anyway, back to acting like a mindless drone

GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT GOU IS GREAT .......and so on.


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## Kirk (Oct 22, 2002)

In Gou We Trust!


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## cdhall (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by adrenaline _
> 
> *...
> Any advice on how to stop my friends from continuing smoking would be helpful.
> ...



The company I work for does a lot of work with Hospital Patient Education and I have seen a few videos that might convince your friend how and why to stop smoking.  Contact me if you are interested, I'm not sure how a person might just buy one copy but I could look into it.  You might buy one for your friend and watch it with him.

You might also try getting him/her to talk to 
1. An old person who can't quit
2. An athlete/martial artist who has quit
3. A doctor 

They can discuss with him what it was like before and after, and in case 1. they might even tell him how if he does not quit, he might not ever be able to.  I know it is sort of morbid, but see if you can get an old person with emphysema to talk to him.  one of my Great Aunts and Uncles both had it and just listening to them breathe or watching them sit with their Oxygen canister might be enough to jar some sense into your friends' head.

Also a friend of mine went out of the country and was visiting some guy in Thailand with an American Doctor friend.  The Thai person found out the Dr. was a Dr. and began to ask him some questions about diabetes or something.  The Dr. was very straight and blunt and told him that he if could not fix his diet and exercise that his leg/foot would be amputated.  So if you can get a Dr. to speak to your friend like that it might also help.  It would work best perhaps if the Dr. had no motivation of taking your friend as a client so your friend could not interpret advice as a "sales pitch."

This website from the American Heart Association also has a few facts that might be useful
http://216.185.112.5/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4545

Hope this helps.
:asian:


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## GouRonin (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Gou,
> I realise now that my Kung Fu is inferior to yours. I apoligise for ever doubting in you and I hope I am still allowed to follow you around like a mindless numbskull*



Your wish is my command.


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## qizmoduis (Oct 22, 2002)

When I get into the smoker/non-smoker discussion, I remember three things:

1. A pathetic discussion I overheard in my doctor's office one day a few years ago where a 20-something patient was (while hacking up his lungs) discussing his fears of getting lung cancer from his 4 pack a day habit.  He has there to be treated for a severe asthma attack, brought on by his smoking.

2. The fact that all of my grandparents died before I left high-school.  1 from emphysema and three from lung cancer.  They all smoked like factory chimneys, and none of them made it past 70.  My memory of my maternal grandmother gasping and wheezing her last breaths under an oxy tent as she tried to talk to her 5 yo grandson (me) are still quite vivid.

3. My own trips to the hospital for emergency treatment of severe asthma, sometimes brought on by my parents' cigarettes (before they understood they were killing me), and other trips where every breath was a battle.

Smoking, quite frankly, is for inconsiderate, weak-minded, simpering morons who not only are intent on committing slow, horribly painful suicide, but who also have consciously decided to inflict their own suffering on those around them.

Needless to say, I don't think much of smoking.


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## cdhall (Oct 22, 2002)

You go qizmoduis.  Pass the ammo!

:mp5:


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## qizmoduis (Oct 23, 2002)

Hehe.  Methinks I need instruction in the art of smiley-fu!  I should have placed a :soapbox: in my previous lament.


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## Kirk (Oct 23, 2002)

Y'know, smokers aren't asking for your empathy, but hatred for
them, when you've never been a smoker is just plain bigotry.
Unless you know how difficult the actual fight of breaking a habit
is, your opinions don't mean squat.  They're just as bad as some-
one who's never been on a mat in their lives, trying to tell you 
facts about martial artists.   Similar to how so many religious 
leaders down martial arts practices altogether, because of taking
one microscopic facet out of context, and passing judgement on
it as a whole.

I fell into smoking as a teenager, through good old fashioned
peer pressure, and my own stupidity.  Fighting the addiction has
been a long, arduous fight, which I'm still losing.  I use to smoke
2 packs a day, of "hard" cigarettes (Marlboro 100's), and now
I'm down to half a pack a day, of very light cigarettes (Marlboro
Ultra Lights).  I've quit cold turkey before, using will power alone
to fight an addiction that many say is stronger than one to heroin.
That fight lasted 6 months, and + 70 pounds.  It's a hard fight 
that I'm working on, but regardless, I'm a piece of crap waste of
skin to most of you people.  Yet many, I would bet would have
empathy for the alcoholic, the drug addict, the sexaholic, the
healthy yet homeless that don't want to work.  Otherwise I'd see 
posts here right along with this one.   Many of you have 
unhealthy habits yourselves, yet won't bring them up, or
will, as any addict would, deny those addictions yourselves. So
you don't face the judgement, name calling, and bigotry that you 
enjoy inflicting so much.

I don't light up in anyone's car, or around any children, or near
anyone that objects to my smoking in their presence.  I don't
smoke inside any building or vehicle, including my own house
or car.  I know it's bad for me, and WILL shorten my life.  I'm 
trying.  But people that like to name call and pass judgement 
on smokers without knowing the full facts of what's going on
in their lives, will never be a group

Just not, lest ye be judged.

Peace.


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## fist of fury (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> but regardless, I'm a piece of crap waste of skin to most of you people.   *



Yes you are. 
:boing2:


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## Pakhet (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Y'know, smokers aren't asking for your empathy, but hatred for
> them, when you've never been a smoker is just plain bigotry.
> ...



Kirk, 

you are sooo right   -  I'm fighting that battle right now too and it's hard, maybe impossible.  I've cut down a lot but haven't changed brands - from 2 -3 packs a day to a little more than half a pack Kool 100's. good luck to you  

Lisa


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## Kirk (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pakhet _
> 
> *Kirk,
> 
> ...



Good luck to you too, and thank you!


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## GouRonin (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Y'know, smokers aren't asking for your empathy, but hatred for
> them, when you've never been a smoker is just plain bigotry.
> Unless you know how difficult the actual fight of breaking a habit
> is, your opinions don't mean squat.*



I've never been a heroin addict either, but I've seen the effects of it and I think I can decide for myself if my opinion means anything. That being said, it just ain't good to be smoking. Yet many smokers will try and justify the habit. I defy any smoker to come up with a healthy reason to be smoking. The only one I can come up with is the study that looked at the effects of nicotine and schizophrenia. It may actually be beneficial. However, the sad by product of how it's ingested is a problem.

I don't think I ever said I hated smokers. I hate very few people and smokers just don't rank up that high for me to hate. I don't like it, but I don't harp on those who do. As long as they aren't in my face with it. Which you say you aren't so why would I be worried?



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I fell into smoking as a teenager, through good old fashioned
> peer pressure, and my own stupidity.*



Oh. Here I thought that all smokers had a gun held to their head and were made to start.

Seriously though, I hear that a lot. Many smokers defer and shift blame/responsibilty for their addiction. (Which I admit that you are taking partial responsibility for) Yes I have heard the _"stronger than heroin"_ argument. People do manage to kick heroin though.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Fighting the addiction has been a long, arduous fight, which I'm still losing. It's a hard fight that I'm working on*



Good. I think that there are a whole bunch of people around that love you a lot and like having you in their lives. (Not me though. I hate you) I think you're selfish for shortening your life and taking the wonderful thing that is YOU away from these people who love you so much. However, you're working hard at it and that is a good sign. Don't give up. Life is all about redemption.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I'm a piece of crap waste of
> skin to most of you people.*



I have no sympathy for those who wish to engage in self injurious behavior. You are the master of your own design.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Yet many, I would bet would have
> empathy for the alcoholic, the drug addict, the sexaholic, the
> healthy yet homeless that don't want to work.*



I have no sympathy for those who wish to engage in self injurious behavior. You are the master of your own design.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Many of you have
> unhealthy habits yourselves, So you don't face the judgement.*



Yep. And I am responsible for the consequences of those habits. I accept them. I look at how they affect others and take appropriate steps for them. I judge myself. No other jury will ever be that harsh as the one who judges themself.

Kirk. You smoke. It's unhealthy. Accept it. I am not going to ride you on it. No one here really has ridden you on it. You sound sensitive to it. You're working on it. People will support you. But most of us won't play the fiddle as you lament about it. You started. You stop. it's not up to use to do it for you. The blame sits squarely on your shoulders.

As an aside...

**slap**

Tag...you're it!
:rofl:


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## Abbax8 (Oct 23, 2002)

First- recent clinical evidence indicates that nicotine addiction is stronger that heroin or cocaine. 

Second- no amount of logical arguments or threats or emotional pleading will cure an addiction. The fact is an addicition is a life long circumstance. Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. The only question is are you drunk or sober. Nicotine addiction- are you now smoking or are you smoke free. Considering how strong the addiction is, smokers can use our support when they try to quit. 

Third- understand that while many people started to smoke because of peer pressure or whatever, the tobacco companies worked for years to make tobacco more addictive.  People in these forums get REAL UPSET when someone wins at a tournament because the judging was rigged. Big *****- what harm was caused- you lost a match. The deck has been stcked BIG TIME against everyone who smokes. The cost- LOST LIVES, Families without a member. Puts things in perspective-HUH!


                                                                  Peace
                                                                   Dennis


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## qizmoduis (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Y'know, smokers aren't asking for your empathy, but hatred for
> them, when you've never been a smoker is just plain bigotry.
> ...



Well, I had a long diatribe written out, but I deleted it because I'd rather not continue on a subject that tends to get me a little too riled up.  I will say, however, that my lack of addiction doesn't invalidate my personal experiences, whatever you may believe, and that my strong opinions of the habit do not constitute bigotry, nor do smokers constitute a downtrodden minority against whom bigotry is committed.

[edit] And it turns out that Gou pretty much said the same things I had written anyway, while I was writing.  It sounded much more caustic when I did it, so I'm glad someone else got to it first.


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## Kirk (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Yep. And I am responsible for the consequences of those habits. I accept them. I look at how they affect others and take appropriate steps for them. I judge myself. No other jury will ever be that harsh as the one who judges themself.
> *



So you accept your addiction to sasquatch porn and beer ?


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## Kirk (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by qizmoduis _
> 
> *Well, I had a long diatribe written out, but I deleted it because I'd rather not continue on a subject that tends to get me a little too riled up.  I will say, however, that my lack of addiction doesn't invalidate my personal experiences, whatever you may believe, and that my strong opinions of the habit do not constitute bigotry, nor do smokers constitute a downtrodden minority against whom bigotry is committed. *



Okay, then I'll use the term ignorance instead.  Unless you've 
been there, you know squat.  Your opinion on this matter means
absolutely nothing to me, so say what you want, because you
DON'T KNOW.


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## qizmoduis (Oct 23, 2002)

From what I understand, MY favorite habit can lead to a longer life.  My wife apparently thinks that's a liability.:rofl:


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## GouRonin (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *So you accept your addiction to sasquatch porn and beer ?*



Oh shut up.

I'm in a 12 step program.


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## GouRonin (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by qizmoduis _
> *[edit] And it turns out that Gou pretty much said the same things I had written anyway, while I was writing.  It sounded much more caustic when I did it, so I'm glad someone else got to it first. *



Yeah, if anyone is going to be an @sshole around here it's me.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Abbax8 _
> 
> *First- recent clinical evidence indicates that nicotine addiction is stronger that heroin or cocaine.
> 
> ...




Ok, Call me stupid, but which studies show your first point. I am not challeneging the comment only looking to get some data to read myself.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Okay, then I'll use the term ignorance instead.  Unless you've
> been there, you know squat.  Your opinion on this matter means
> ...




Kirk,

I have never smoked. Except second hand.

As soon as I got out of a house of smokers I was healthier with no more sinus infections.

Now, do I understand the addiction of the cigarette? Nope, never been there. Do, support my friends who try to quit I sure do. Do I listen to those that whine it is too hard to quit? No I do not. An Addiction is an addiction be it Nicotine heroin or adrenaline, or prescription pain killers. The person must choose to quit, it must be them. Their addiction is not the fault of someone else, no matter how easy it was made to get the 'drug'. Or how addicting the drug actually is, or made more addicting to keep the customer coming back. The 'user' must decide it all by themselves that they have a problem and that they want to deal with it.

As for Opinions you can not care for mine just as much I can not care for yours or anyone else's.

OR I could care.

Now for an example to the smoker who insists on smoking around me in a public area or right out side a door way. Smoke, which contains Cyanide enters the blood stream through the lungs. Once in the Blood it prohibits oxygen from attaching to red blood cells. This means that the body and the brain does not get the oxygen it needs. Part of the rush smokers feel. So, tell me what is the difference between a person blowing smoke at me and me slowly strangling them? Both inhibit the proper flow of blood and oxygen to the brain.

Yet, I do not have the right to strangle others, and it is getting harder for rude smokers to be accepted in public.

Why this last comment, for it is always the few bad ones that make it seem so much worse for everyone else. The non-smoking people see the rude smokers who smoke in elevators or right out side of doors of buildings in front of the signs that say no smoking that you have to walk right through. The General public does not see the rest of the people trying to quit, struggling not to reach for the next one. Just trying to state that there are other ways people see things.

To those that have Quit I salute you, and praise you every day you do not go back.

To those that are trying to quit I hope you make it and I support and applaud you choice to quit.

As for the addiction, it is like fear and pain it is all personal and for some people it is harder than it is for others. So, I think not being a smoker, my opinion still does count. 

Just my Opinion Take it with some salt.

Rich
:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 24, 2002)

Every member of my family smokes...alot.  I'm the only -sane- one.  I had to suffer thru a 1,000 mile drive, sufficating in the back as the 4 of them needed their 'cancer' fix.  I have to smell like an ashtray as everything I own is permiated with the permanent smell of their addiction.  Every morning I got to fill my lungs with the 'wonderful' arroma of burning tobaco for all but 2 years out of the last 32. Half way through dinner, whoevers done first has to light up...cant wait 5 minutes so I can enjoy the taste of the actual food I'm eating.  

At least in the summer I can open the windows..in the winter its much worse.  Of course, I get the complaints about how much I spent on the air cleaner ($100)..and how much it costs to run 24/7 in the winter. (less than their 2 pack a day habit I'm sure)

Did I mention that the crap thats in their 'addiction' causes my eyes to heal alot slower than they should....that I have seen my endurance drop after dealing with my family on holidays...of course, I'm the rude one when I eat and run...or come to the table in a gas-mask so I can breath.  They were of course very insulted when I kept sipping my soda and spraying the mist in the air...gee, spits bad, but suffication is ok...wow.

I saw a great device in MAD magazine a while ago...it was a reverse-diving helmet...it kept the smoke in, where they, and only they can enjoy it.


I watched 1 of my favorite aunts die from cancer caused by her addiction.... I watched an uncle go from it too.  My grandmother went slowly and painfully from lung cancer caused by her addiction...my grandfather continues to smoke 2 packs a day...my mother is at least a 1 pack a day, and my sister, I have no clue, but last I saw was right up there too.  My grandfather gets up, coughs, hacks up a nice brown chunk of crap, and lights up.  I counted 5 in 15 minutes 1 day...of course the sign to light up is me sitting down for breakfast.  I like jerky smoked, not pancakes.

If you want to smoke, go right ahead.  Just don't do it by me, and don't ask me to pay your health bills.  YOU smoke because you want to.  I didn't grab you, shove you in a lock, and cram cancer sticks in your mouth until you just would -die- without your fix.  You put it in your mouth and did it yourself.  You like that crap so much, why dont you just keep it in?  

Just don't poison me or mine because you need your fix.
:soapbox: 

As for me, I will keep glaring at the rude jerks who smoke in the doorway (cuz its soo cold outside...awwwww)  F-U.  I want to breath, so either quit, or go freeze since you want it so bad.

I have no sympathy for people who willingly poison themselves...just as I have no sympathy for the drug addict who OD's, the hung over teens after an allnight wild party, or the promiscuois gal who gets knocked up because she didn't use protection or the promiscous person who gets VD for the same reason.

Take responsibility for your own life and actions, and stop hiding behind excuses.  You are fat because you choose to become fat...you smoke because you choose to smoke....etc.

:soapbox: 

This world would be alot better if people would stop making excuses and act responsibly...


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## GouRonin (Oct 24, 2002)

I said I was in a 12 step program!

Porno isn't easy to leave behind.


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## adrenaline (Oct 24, 2002)

Rich Parsons - An Addiction is an addiction be it Nicotine heroin or adrenaline, or prescription pain killers.

Is it possible to become addicted to adrenaline or the rush that it causes ?


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## GouRonin (Oct 24, 2002)

Yes you can get addicted to adrenaline. I think what people should look at more than the substance they are addicted to is the fact that addictive personalities will always be that way.


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## Master of Blades (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Your wish is my command.
> *



Dont you mean that your command is my wish  And porn is always hard to give up. It took me the better part of my young life and look at me now........:shrug: 

:asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by adrenaline _
> 
> *Rich Parsons - An Addiction is an addiction be it Nicotine heroin or adrenaline, or prescription pain killers.
> 
> Is it possible to become addicted to adrenaline or the rush that it causes ? *



For argument sake just read:
First, let us say that you cannot be addicted to Adrenaline, yet to the rush it causes. So, if you are addicted to the rush it causes and the feeling or energy and power and excitement, then how do you get that rush and or feeling? You have to induce your body to give you the 'fix' you need, in this case Adrenaline. Thereby, saying you are addicted to Adrenaline to maintain the rush / feeling you want to obtain.

This negates the first assumption made of you cannot be addicted to Adrenaline.

Now, let us take this one step further, what gives you the Adrenaline dump? Fear or excitement or some other extreme emotion of feeling that usually is life threatening or could be perceived as life threatening.  Therefore to get the Adrenaline to get the rush / feeling you have to put your self into life threatening or serious situations. So one could argue that you could be addicted to this type of situation. Now as most sane people would call this situation 'not normal' or even suicidal tendencies, one could argue that the person might be depressed.

So, is the person in question depressed and having suicidal tendencies and enjoying the Manic High they get from the Adrenaline Rush / Feeling or do they just have an addiction?

That Answer I cannot give, for that would depend upon the person at hand and much, much more data would be required before a determination could be made.

Just My Thoughts

Rich


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## ace (Oct 24, 2002)

U stick these in the Cigeretts 
When they light them they go boom

:bomb: :EG: :bomb:
 :redeme:


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## adrenaline (Oct 24, 2002)

So is it possible to become addicted to the type of adrenaline rush that you get when in a fight, so therefore professional boxers might be addicted to the feeling they get when fighting and find it difficult to give up and when they continue to fight they get serious injuries like Parkinson's....


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## Kirk (Nov 15, 2002)

Peggy Noonen: "Them" [one group for whom liberals have no tolerance at all]
Wall Street Journal ^ | Nov 15, 2002 | Peggy Noonen

There's a lot to think about this week--the rise of Nancy Pelosi, the meaning of the Republican triumph--but my thoughts keep tugging toward a group of people who are abused, ostracized and facing a cold winter. It's not right what we do to them, and we should pay attention. 

I saw them again the other day, shivering in the cold, in the rain, without jackets or coats. The looked out, expressionless, as the great world, busy and purposeful, hurried by on the street. They were lined up along the wall of a business office. At their feet were a small mountain of cigarette butts and litter. 

They are the punished, the shamed. They are the Smokers. As they stood there--I imagined a wreath of smoke curling round their shoulders like the wooden collar of the stocks of the 17th century--I thought: Why don't we stop this? 

For a decade now we have been throwing them out of our offices and homes and public spaces. We have told them they are unclean. We treat them the way India used to treat the untouchables. We have removed them from our midst because they take small tubes of soft white paper with flecks of tobacco stuffed inside, light them on fire and suck on them. This creates smoke, which pollutes the air. 

"Second hand smoke kills." But--how to put it?--we all know that's just politically correct propaganda invented by the prohibitionists, don't we? If you spend 24 hours a day in a 4-by-4-foot room with a chain smoker you'll feel it, and you'll be harmed by it. But are you damaged by the guy down the hall who smokes in the office at work? No, you're not, and you know it. You just don't like it. Your nostrils are dainty little organs, and your nostrils trump his rights. 

But you definitely wouldn't be harmed if the handful of smokers in your office were allowed to smoke only in a common room with good ventilation. Why wouldn't that be a civilized and acceptable compromise? 

And why is it smoking that is the object of such fierce disdain? 

Within blocks of where the smokers stood in front of the office building on Madison Avenue the other day, there were people who last night bought five rocks of crack cocaine. There were people who watch child porn. There were people who drive by with the sound up so you can hear the lyrics of the song they're listening to, which is about how women are ho's who should be shot. Talk about air pollution. There were people who gorge on food, people who drink too much, people who perform abortions in the eighth month of pregnancy--the eighth month, so late that the child could almost come out and shake his little fist and say "I wish you had not killed me!" Within blocks of where the smokers stood there were thousands of purveyors of and sharers in all the mutations and permutations of human woe, sin, malfeasance, messiness and degradation. 

And they all get to stay inside. They all get to sit at their desks. 

It's the smokers we ostracize. 

It's odd, isn't it? 

Actually it's crazy. 

I think it is an insufficiently commented-upon irony that cigarette prohibition and the public shaming it entails is the work of modern liberals. They're supposed to be the ones who are nonjudgmental, who live and let live, but they approach smoking like Carry Nation with her ax. Conservatives on the other hand let you smoke. They acknowledge sin and accept imperfection. Also most of them are culturally inclined toward courtesy of the old-fashioned sort. If you tried to light up near a left-wing big-city attorney, she would cut off your hand the way Christopher chopped off Ralphie's the other night on "The Sopranos." But if you are a smoker and you go visit a nice little unsophisticated Baptist lady in a suburb of Tuscaloosa, she will not only allow you to smoke, she will scurry into the dining room to find the china ashtray she put away 10 years ago under the folded table cloths. She would do this so you could have a nice place to put your ashes. She wouldn't dream of making you uncomfortable. That would be impolite and inhospitable. 

Modern liberals are not culturally inclined toward courtesy. They are inclined toward knowing what's good for you and passing ordinances to make sure you get the picture. The first Thank You For Not Smoking sign I ever saw was in 1976, on the desk of Massachusetts governor Mike Dukakis. I thought: I have seen the future, and it is puritanical. 

Why do liberals punish smokers? Could we discuss this? Is it that it makes them feel clean? Some parts of our culture in which liberals largely call the shots--Hollywood, for instance--are fairly low and degraded. Maybe liberals can't face this, and make themselves feel clean if they ban unclean air? Or maybe banning smokers makes them feel safe, like they'll never die. Maybe it makes them feel in control. Maybe it makes them feel superior. 

Or maybe they just want to bully someone. 

Which gets me to Michael Bloomberg. New York is still suffering from 9/11, threatened by huge budget deficits, struggling with Wall Street's downturn, facing draconian tax increases including a brand new commuter tax--that'll certainly encourage new businesses to come here!--and trying to come to contract agreement with big unions. Our realistic and no-nonsense mayor has surveyed the scene, pondered the landscape, and come up with his answer: Ban all smoking in bars. 

In bars, where the people we force out of our business offices seek refuge! In bars, where half of us plan to spend our last hours after Osama tries to take out Times Square. In bars, the last public place you can go to be a dropout, a nonconformist, refusenik, a time waster, a bohemian, a hider from reality, a bum, a rebel, a bore, a heathen. The last public place in which you can really wallow in your own and others' human messiness. The last place where you can still take part in that great American tradition, leaving the teeming marching soldiers of capitalism outside to go inside, quit the race, retreat and have a drink and fire up a Marlboro and . . . think, fantasize, daydream, listen to Steely Dan or Sinatra, revel in your loser-tude, play the Drunken Misery Scene in the movie of your life, meet a girl, meet a guy, meet a girl who's a guy. The last public place you could go to turn on, tune in, drop out and light up. 

No more, says our mayor. Unclean! In this Bloomberg exhibits for the first time a bad case of mayoral mental illness. Something about being mayor of New York makes you, ultimately, nuts. In David Dinkins it manifested itself this way: Facing deep recession, rising crime and union strife he would contemplate our problems and then call an emergency press conference to announce his answer. The city of New York, he would say, will no longer do business with the racist government of South Africa. In Rudy Giuliani's case it was government by non sequitur--government by someone who needed an event as dramatic as 9/11 to provide a foe as big as his aggression. 

For Mr. Bloomberg now, it is Bloomberg Has Decreed. Mr. Bloomberg doesn't allow smoking in his east side townhouse, Mr. Bloomberg will not allow it anywhere in New York. Those nasty working-class folk who still suck on cancer sticks while swilling Buds will be put down. Bloomberg Decrees. 

What an idiot. What a billionaire snob bullyboy. 

A short word on smokers. They are people who've made a deal. They are old-fashioned, and it's an old-fashioned deal. Their sense of life is essentially conservative: They know it is short, they know part of how you say thank you for it is to really feel it and enjoy it, and they know this life isn't the most transcendent and important one you'll be living. Smokers are disproportionately Catholic, did you know that? They know that eventually something will kill them. They accept death and illness as part of the equation. They love smoking so much, it so enhances their enjoyment of each day, that they'll gamble. Some of them, they know, will die in a car accident next year, so it won't matter if they smoked; some will die of old age at 97; some will get emphysema or lung cancer at 50 and pay the price. Fine. You buys your smokes and takes your chances. This is a hardy and, as I said, old=fashioned approach to life. It is not modern. Modern people think that if they're tidy, floss and eat fennel they'll never die, and if they get sick they'll clone themselves and go get reborn. Smokers are more stoic and sacramental. They don't want to be cloned, they want to go to heaven and see grandma. I made up the part about how they're disproportionately Catholic but I bet it's true and in any case why shouldn't I assert phony facts? The other side does. 

No, I don't smoke. I used to. I still have some feeling for my old messier, more anarchic self, but now I don't like the smell of smoke and don't think I'll ever go back to it. But that doesn't mean no one else can. And it doesn't mean I won't let you light up. 

We should let the smokers back inside and treat them as if they're human, because they are. Until then I hope the smokers huddled together in the cold realize they're outside because of the modern liberals' war against being human. I hope they organize building to building and raise money to fight the prissy prohibitionists of politics, the Bloombergs and their ilk, who can't keep you safe from muggings or suitcase nukes but make believe they're being effective by keeping you safe from a Merit Ultralight.


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## Elfan (Nov 15, 2002)

There is a story in _The Journey_. I belive it was Larry Tatum but I'm not sure.  Anway, he was smokeing outside the Pasedena school one day when Mr. Parker came by and told him that that would limit his art or something along those lines.  He threw the cirgerate down and hasn't smoked since.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 15, 2002)

Ok there are bad people and bad things out there.

If I saw someone watching child porn I would kick the (*$&  out of them and then turn them into the police. If saw someone selling crack I would also turn them in to the police.

The child porn people do it in private and hide it as to the drug users so as to not be caught. The smokers blow their smoke into your face or hold their cigarettes away from their face so they can breath, but hold into your face. This all very rude, and they believe it to be their right to do so. Once I moved out of a smoking house, my sinus problems and headaches stopped. So, I know and see the immediate benefit of having no smoke around me. 

Now as to my delicate nostrils, I offer up their delicate throats? Am I allowed to choke them so they cannot breath? Am I allowed to reduce the oxygen flow to their brain where reason is to take place? I personally think, I could kill a smoker and get off, because I was not in my right mind because I did not have enough oxygen in my blood to function properly. Yet, do I go out and kill these people who are nothing more than another drug addict? Nope I pity them and try to tell them they are no different then the guy down the street with the crack. Do I shun and not hang out with crack addicts? yes I shun them, Do I shun Child Porn, Yes I shun Child Porn. Do I shun Smokers, yes I do.

Just my over the edge and very liberal view points.
(* They are liberal since I have deemed not to kill all the smokers *)


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## GouRonin (Nov 15, 2002)

That's right. Kiddie porn is bad.

Consenting adult porn is good.

Mmmmkay?


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## Kirk (Nov 15, 2002)

LOL!  I stumbled upon this article and totally thought, "I'll post
this, and get a reply for sure from Rich" hehehe ... I can't disagree
with you one bit.  But I'm proud I'm right


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## GouRonin (Nov 15, 2002)

You can't smoke porn, but if you could, would second hand porn be harmful?


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## fist of fury (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *You can't smoke porn, but if you could, would second hand porn be harmful? *



But depending on how you watch your porn you could go blind.  And second hand porn could be harmful to the person watching.


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## GouRonin (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fist of fury _
> *But depending on how you watch your porn you could go blind.  And second hand porn could be harful to the person watching. *



Great. Now for the rest of the day when I lok at anyone I'll be thinking..._"Hmmm...porn star or not?"_

D@MN YOOOOOOUUUUU!
:cuss:


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## Nightingale (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Peggy Noonen: "Them" [one group for whom liberals have no tolerance at all]
> Wall Street Journal ^ | Nov 15, 2002 | Peggy Noonen
> ...


*

And they CHOSE to stand out there and smoke instead of inside, nice and warm, with everyone else.  Their cigarettes are obviously more important to them.




			For a decade now we have been throwing them out of our offices and homes and public spaces. We have told them they are unclean. We treat them the way India used to treat the untouchables. We have removed them from our midst because they take small tubes of soft white paper with flecks of tobacco stuffed inside, light them on fire and suck on them. This creates smoke, which pollutes the air.
		
Click to expand...


Yep. It pollutes the air.  The air here in Los Angeles, where I work, is plenty polluted.  It doesn't need the additional yuck contained in cigarette smoke.  I will not tolerate someone stinking up my home with a cigarette.  A polite guest does not leave the home of the host reeking of stale smoke.




			"Second hand smoke kills." But--how to put it?--we all know that's just politically correct propaganda invented by the prohibitionists, don't we? If you spend 24 hours a day in a 4-by-4-foot room with a chain smoker you'll feel it, and you'll be harmed by it. But are you damaged by the guy down the hall who smokes in the office at work? No, you're not, and you know it. You just don't like it. Your nostrils are dainty little organs, and your nostrils trump his rights.
		
Click to expand...


You're assuming that someone has a "right" to smoke.  They don't.  I don't see it in the bill of rights, constitution or declaration of independence anywhere.  What I do see is "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights... among these, LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."  By smoking around other people who choose not to smoke (such as waitresses, who don't have a choice of whether or not to serve you), you are infringing on their right to life. 

55% of people with asthma report cigarette smoke as one of their attack triggers.  if it can cause an asthma attack (which can kill), one can logically draw the conclusion that second hand smoke causes conditions that can be lethal. 


Second-hand smoke has serious effects on children's health 

"Children of parents who smoke: 

cough and wheeze more 
have more ear infections 
go to the hospital more often with bronchitis and pneumonia 
have reduced lung function. 
Children with asthma have more asthma attacks due to second-hand smoke. Their asthma attacks also tend to be more severe. 

Children whose parents smoke 10 or more cigarettes a day have a greater chance of becoming asthmatic. A link has been shown between a mother's smoking and an infant's risk of dying from Sudden Infant Death Syndrome."  

A U.S. analysis** of over 100 reports on pædiatric diseases concluded that childrens exposure to tobacco smoke is responsible for up to:

13% of ear infection
(approximately 220,000 ear infections in Canadian children)* 

26% of tympanostomy tube insertions
(approximately 16,500 in Canada) 

24% of tonsillectomies and adenoidectomies
(approx. 2,100 Canadian operations) 

13% of asthma cases
(approx. 52,200 cases in Canada) 

16% of physician visits for cough
(approx. 200,000 visits in Canada) 

20% of all lung infections in children under 5
(approx. 43,600 cases of bronchitis in Canada and 19,000 cases of pneumonia in Canada) 

136-212 childhood deaths from lower respiratory infection
(approx. 13-20 in Canada) 

148 childhood deaths from fires started by tobacco products
(approx. 15 in Canada) 

1868-2708 SIDS deaths
(approx. 180-270 in Canada) 








			But you definitely wouldn't be harmed if the handful of smokers in your office were allowed to smoke only in a common room with good ventilation. Why wouldn't that be a civilized and acceptable compromise?
		
Click to expand...


Because your smoking would prohibit a non smoking person with a medical condition (such as asthma) from entering that room... perhaps your secretary has asthma... can she walk in there to give you a phone message?  NO.  that's why.




			And why is it smoking that is the object of such fierce disdain?
		
Click to expand...


Because smokers continue to behave rudely and try to force the rest of society to breathe their smoke.  I have no problem with anyone smoking as long as:

1.  I don't have to breathe it.
2.  I don't have to smell like it.
3.  My family and pets don't have to breathe it or smell like it.
4.  My home, car and workplace don't have to smell like it.




			Within blocks of where the smokers stood in front of the office building on Madison Avenue the other day, there were people who last night bought five rocks of crack cocaine. There were people who watch child porn. There were people who drive by with the sound up so you can hear the lyrics of the song they're listening to, which is about how women are ho's who should be shot. Talk about air pollution. There were people who gorge on food, people who drink too much, people who perform abortions in the eighth month of pregnancy--the eighth month, so late that the child could almost come out and shake his little fist and say "I wish you had not killed me!" Within blocks of where the smokers stood there were thousands of purveyors of and sharers in all the mutations and permutations of human woe, sin, malfeasance, messiness and degradation.
		
Click to expand...


The existance of these other problems have nothing to do with smoking, which is an additional problem.  You're attempting to cloud the issue by saying "All these people are doing things that are REALLY wrong, and what I'm doing is just a little wrong, so go bother them!"  Stick to the issue.  and we've made laws against most of those other things anyway.




			I think it is an insufficiently commented-upon irony that cigarette prohibition and the public shaming it entails is the work of modern liberals. They're supposed to be the ones who are nonjudgmental, who live and let live, but they approach smoking like Carry Nation with her ax.
		
Click to expand...


Exactly. Live and let live.  You have every right to smoke as long as it doesn't infringe on MY RIGHT TO NOT SMOKE.




			Conservatives on the other hand let you smoke. They acknowledge sin and accept imperfection. Also most of them are culturally inclined toward courtesy of the old-fashioned sort. If you tried to light up near a left-wing big-city attorney, she would cut off your hand the way Christopher chopped off Ralphie's the other night on "The Sopranos." But if you are a smoker and you go visit a nice little unsophisticated Baptist lady in a suburb of Tuscaloosa, she will not only allow you to smoke, she will scurry into the dining room to find the china ashtray she put away 10 years ago under the folded table cloths. She would do this so you could have a nice place to put your ashes. She wouldn't dream of making you uncomfortable. That would be impolite and inhospitable.
		
Click to expand...


Because the little Baptist lady is too polite to tell you to take your cigarette and shove it...somewhere.  However, you are being impolite by stinking up her home so she'll be smelling it for days after you leave.




			Modern liberals are not culturally inclined toward courtesy. They are inclined toward knowing what's good for you and passing ordinances to make sure you get the picture. The first Thank You For Not Smoking sign I ever saw was in 1976, on the desk of Massachusetts governor Mike Dukakis. I thought: I have seen the future, and it is puritanical.
		
Click to expand...


This is completely off the smoking topic, but since he brought it up, I wanted to respond:  Why is it that there were no riots by the protestors outside the republican national convention (liberals were the protestors) but the CONSERVATIVE protestors outside the democratic national convention have an incredible history of violence, which was continued during the last round of conventions?    And, its conservatives who are blowing up clinics and doctors for doing something completely LEGAL. 




			Why do liberals punish smokers?
		
Click to expand...


We don't. You punish yourselves.

You sacrifice: 
Your looks
Your nice smell
Your lungs
Your life
Your family's health
Your health
shall I go on?




			Could we discuss this? Is it that it makes them feel clean? Some parts of our culture in which liberals largely call the shots--Hollywood, for instance--are fairly low and degraded. Maybe liberals can't face this, and make themselves feel clean if they ban unclean air? Or maybe banning smokers makes them feel safe, like they'll never die. Maybe it makes them feel in control. Maybe it makes them feel superior.
		
Click to expand...

Liberals try to ban smoking because:

Its unhealthy
It smells bad
It makes people who don't smoke smell bad
It causes cancer
It kills people

It has nothing to do with Hollywood, and everything to do with that little "Surgeon General's Warning" that's on the back of your cigarette box.




			Or maybe they just want to bully someone.
		
Click to expand...


Um...no.




			Which gets me to Michael Bloomberg. New York is still suffering from 9/11, threatened by huge budget deficits, struggling with Wall Street's downturn, facing draconian tax increases including a brand new commuter tax--that'll certainly encourage new businesses to come here!--and trying to come to contract agreement with big unions. Our realistic and no-nonsense mayor has surveyed the scene, pondered the landscape, and come up with his answer: Ban all smoking in bars.
		
Click to expand...


You're confusing the issue.  The Smoking in Bars ban had nothing to do with 9/11, budget defecits, Wall street, commuter taxes, and unions.  It had to do with smoking.  Stay on topic please.





			A short word on smokers. They are people who've made a deal. They are old-fashioned, and it's an old-fashioned deal. Their sense of life is essentially conservative: They know it is short, they know part of how you say thank you for it is to really feel it and enjoy it, and they know this life isn't the most transcendent and important one you'll be living.
		
Click to expand...


Just because you chose to make a deal with the devil, doesn't mean you have to include everyone else in your deal.  If I didn't have to breathe your smoke, you would have my complete support of your right to slowly kill yourself....but try smoking in my home, and you'll find yourself on the wrong end of a super-soaker.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/health/tcu/nsstatistics.htm#15
http://www.cancer.ca/english/RD_childrensecondhandsmoke.asp*


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## Kirk (Nov 15, 2002)

You read wrong and left the topic as well.  

There is no law against smoking.  The article is saying that you
liberals feel you have to make laws to protect people from
themselves.  The issue isn't blowing smoke in a non smoker's
face, the issue is being ABLE to smoke, in specific area, away
from non smokers.  It wasn't a republican who made laws that
we should pass out needles so that the poor drug abuser, who
typically results to violating others civil rights, and commiting
crimes to get their next high, don't get infections, HIV, Hepatitis,
etc, it was a HUGE democrat agenda.  He was trying to make the
point that so much energy is placed on ridiculing and harrasing
the smoker, who is NOT doing anything illegal, when they could
be putting that energy to better use.    Your quoting of statistics,
whether wrong or right have no place in addressing this article,
because he's not saying that non smokers should be around
smokers, and the author is implying that a lot of statistics 
involving second hand smoke have a political agenda, and aren't
true.  

You couldn't possibly infer that you *know* what's going on 
in the mind of all little Baptist Ladies, could you?

Plenty of other things cause pollution .. yet nothing is getting
attacked as much .. why?  Because the other things don't have
billions of dollars worth of lobbyists.  1 Volcano erupting dumps
more chloroflourocarbons into the air at one time than the 
entire human race has done since it's existance.  Where's the
protest, and millions of dollars of research on preventing this?

If ya want cigarette smoking illegal, then join together and make
it so, this is democracy, that's how it works.  Also, since you're
into stats and such, why don't you give me the percentage of
the number of Republicans that are members of H.E.M.P. and
other organizations looking to legalize marijuana (and no, NOT
just for medical purposes).  The number of democrats?  Is pot
smoking not pollution?  Does it smell better than tobacco smoke?
Would second hand smoke from a marijuana smoker not get 
someone high?  Is getting high life threatening?


The main point of the article was hey, lets focus on the real
problems, not making sure an American adult wears a seatbelt,
or a smoker smokes in the privacy of his own home, or a
motorcyclist wears a helmet.  I don't need you telling me HOW
to live my life, unless it hurts YOU (the figurative you, not you
specifically).  We don't need laws to protect us from ourselves,
or government watch committees to do so.

You don't have the right to make your work place smell as you
see fit.  Just the same as someone doesn't have the right to
stink it up with cigarette smoke, but that's not what the author
was saying either.  A well ventilated room would prevent the
odor.  Would you be just as militant about somebody with 
really bad b.o. that left it all over the office?  Where are the
masses in this capacity?  Again, no money to be made there.


There's a lot of smokers who know the deal.  They know it's
bad, stinks, is harmful to them.  There's a lot that don't blow it
anyone's face, do it around anyone else (including kids), and
are trying like hell to quit.  But they're also tired of being treated
like a second hand citizen.  Tired of being labled because a jerk
blew smoke in your face ... if a Japanese person cut you off in
traffic, are all Japanese considered rude?  Same applies to
smokers.  Whatever the attitude, so is the response, if they're
not bothering you, and you're full of hate for them, then they'll
hate you right back.  They're not lesser human beings because
they smoke, and treating them worse than the prostitute, heroin
addict, criminal, is NOT being the open minded liberal that they
claim to be.


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## GouRonin (Nov 15, 2002)

Those are some great argument.

What have they got to do with porn?

Stay on topic please.


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## Kirk (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Those are some great argument.
> 
> ...



LOL!!!  Okay, porn.  It's common to hear "Mira los pinches nalgas"
said often while watching porn down here.  What's a common
phrase heard in The Great White North?


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## GouRonin (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *LOL!!!  Okay, porn.  It's common to hear "Mira los pinches nalgas"
> said often while watching porn down here.  What's a common
> phrase heard in The Great White North? *



*"OH GOD GOU! YOU'RE THE GREATEST!!!!!"*
:iws:


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *LOL!  I stumbled upon this article and totally thought, "I'll post
> this, and get a reply for sure from Rich" hehehe ... I can't disagree
> with you one bit.  But I'm proud I'm right  *



Kirk,

I guess you know me  

Rich


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 15, 2002)

Kirk,

Nightingale8472 has some good points that I agree with.

But here is why they cannot go sit in a room by themselves and smoke. We will ignore the secretary or the janitor who has to go in the room. My point is that while they are on smoke break everyone else is covering for them. I work in an engineering office and about 3:00 PM everyday a bunch of used to go down and get a pop and maybe an ice-cream bar and take a quick break. Many of the managers coming back from their smoke breaks were up set to find us gone. The clock watchers and there is at least one in every group had figured that the smokers got an extra hour off each day that was paid. We just wanted to go take a quick energy break and we caught flak and heat. Not Fair.

Now, I am sure Nightingale quoted medical insurance increase in cost to cover smokers, and she probably also included not only health insurance but also life insurance. Ever have a family member die of cancer, try to get life insurance that does not cost an arm or a leg. You would be better off being an orphan. All medical and life insurance goes up to deal with this issue, we all pay to cover the increased costs of smokers.

So am I a liberal or a conservative Kirk? just curious as how I come across?

Now back to your regularly scheduled second hand (* Adult *) Porn.  And No Gou I have never been paid to have sex on camera so that question can be removed from your mind.

Respect to all
Rich


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## GouRonin (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *And No Gou I have never been paid to have sex on camera so that question can be removed from your mind.*



Well there is a re-occuring nightmare I can put to rest.


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## Kirk (Nov 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *Kirk,
> Nightingale8472 has some good points that I agree with.
> *



*snicker*  Hmmm, reply seriously or humorously on that?
I agree, she sure does.  I posted somebody else's view on the
subject, not mine.  I did think in order to discuss the points
presented I'd have to "take the side" of the author, and I
prepared myself for that.  But I don't buy everything she
said in the article either.



> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *But here is why they cannot go sit in a room by themselves and smoke. We will ignore the secretary or the janitor who has to go in the room. My point is that while they are on smoke break everyone else is covering for them. I work in an engineering office and about 3:00 PM everyday a bunch of used to go down and get a pop and maybe an ice-cream bar and take a quick break. Many of the managers coming back from their smoke breaks were up set to find us gone. The clock watchers and there is at least one in every group had figured that the smokers got an extra hour off each day that was paid. We just wanted to go take a quick energy break and we caught flak and heat. Not Fair.
> *



You're right, that's absolute b.s.  I've made it clear that I'm a 
smoker, and don't want to be.  I'm VERY fair about my breaks
I get 2 fifteen minute breaks just like anyone else.  At times
the clock watchers accused me and others of taking longer
breaks than everyone else, so I started punching a clock.  When
the argument came up again, I presented 6 months of evidence
to the contrary.  The clock watcher then said "well not everyone
takes their designated breaks".  Not my fault.  But I digress ...
I despise people that don't pull their own weight on the job, and
I try not to be one of them.



> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *Now, I am sure Nightingale quoted medical insurance increase in cost to cover smokers, and she probably also included not only health insurance but also life insurance. Ever have a family member die of cancer, try to get life insurance that does not cost an arm or a leg. You would be better off being an orphan. All medical and life insurance goes up to deal with this issue, we all pay to cover the increased costs of smokers.
> *



Again, you're right.  We also pay more for retail items because of
shoplifting, and people scamming the store.  But there's no
militant self policing group out there for that, is there?



> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *So am I a liberal or a conservative Kirk? just curious as how I come across? *



Actually I didn't even think about it.  I kinda assumed you were
similar to myself who just likes to chat about such topics.  If I
said the sky was blue, you'd say it wasn't, just to have a nice
fun debate.  But I'll take a shot in the dark and say you're a
moderate that leans slightly to the left.  

Full respects!


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## Nightingale (Nov 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> Again, you're right.  We also pay more for retail items because of
> shoplifting, and people scamming the store.  But there's no
> militant self policing group out there for that, is there?



There doesn't need to be... Shoplifting is already against the law, so just call the cops and they'll deal with it.


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## Kirk (Nov 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *There doesn't need to be... Shoplifting is already against the law, so just call the cops and they'll deal with it. *



Yet we're still paying more because of shoplifting.


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## Nightingale (Nov 16, 2002)

and we've already taken measures to correct it as much as we can... prosecuting any shoplifter caught shoplifting, security tags, cameras... sounds pretty "militant" to me.

smoking, however, we can take more measures to correct the financial impact it has on our community... we just haven't completely done so. things that could be done:

higher health care insurance premiums for smokers and their children (so the rest of us aren't paying more for someone else who wants to take more of a risk...same thing goes for heavy drinkers)

smoke free bars and restaurants and public buildings to minimize second hand smoke problems for waitresses and bartenders

no smoking within 15 feet of a public building so people don't have to walk through clouds to enter and leave (designated smoking areas might be a good idea, covered areas with ashtrays and places to sit, nice places)

cigarette tax money going ONLY to fund smoking related things (lung problem research, cigarette education, etc)


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> **snicker*  Hmmm, reply seriously or humorously on that?
> I agree, she sure does.  I posted somebody else's view on the
> ...



Kirk,

Very good replies, once again I wish you the best in quitting.

As for the moderate who leans to the left, that is not bad.
I have no idea what I am, other than a guy who likes debates.

And besides the sky is not blue it is the absence of blue that our eyes are perceiving.  

Best Regards

Rich


----------

