# Can one learn from instructional videos?



## chenlihong

Hello fellow members, greetings from India.
Like all of us, I am very much interested into internal martial arts, particularly taijiquan. In past, i was lucky enough to find a sifu who taught me taiji an xingyi for a few weeks. He called the system as 'tao chi chaun' . Unfortunately I had to move very far from that place and now I don't have anyone even remotely associated with martial arts, let alone taiji. There isn't a day goes by i don't think about learning complete art of taijiquan.  I know it is being optimistic to the limit of foolishness, but , is it possible that i could learn taijiquan from some of the instructional DVDs out there?  In case there are, would "yang form taught by   _Yang Zheng Duo (_son of   [FONT=&quot]_Yang Chen Fu )" _be recommended? Or, should I go for Yang jwing-ming's DVDs instead?
I am more interested into chen taijiquan, but looks like there are very few resources about chen style available.  If you happen to know any, please let me know. Any help regarding books, videos and DVDs is much appreciated.

Regards
Deepak


[/FONT]


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## Dan Cosgrove

While training with a teacher is the best way to go, I think if your options are limited, videos could work.

Just be sure to read reviews and get good quality videos, since you don't want to learn bad techniques.


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## Xue Sheng

It is rather difficult to learn Taijiquan by video due to the rather large number of small little circles that appear in the form.

But if that is what you want to do and you eant Chen style look to DVDs from Chen Zhenglei, Chen Xiaowang, and Ren Guangyi. They all are selling DVDs and are all very good. However Chen Zhenglei and Chen Xiaowang DVDs are ONLY in Chinese with VERY bad english translation in both voioce over and sub-titles and Ren Guangyi is in English but may be a bit more expensive.

You may also want to combine this with a book or two as well and I beleive all 3 have written them.


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## wushuguy

if you can only learn from videos, then you have to also pay attention carefully, if possible, videotape yourself and watch it to compare your posture to the one on the video. that might help out. but if you have someone who knows or has practiced, like putting an ad for a training partner on craigslist or something, that way you have the video to watch at home and someone with experience to help correct what misunderstandings you have gained from the video. ( for example on videos it's easy to "see" a certain stance and stand in a similar way even look just like the video, but the stance may still be off. only way to know is if an experienced person or teacher lets you know the details that may not be discussed on the video)


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## mograph

Hmm ... I wonder: to what depth can one learn taijiquan from a video? If the answer is "not very deep", then why learn at all?

To my mind, if you can't get the internal benefits of taijiquan, you're just doing a nice slow dance, and if that's what you want, then fine. However, the real benefits of taijiquan are in how you feel inside, and the difference between "right" feeling and "wrong" feeling can't be seen on a video. It's a game of millimetres. 

In my opinion, the best use of taijiquan videos is to accelerate the learning of the gross movements so you can begin instruction on the fine movements and sensations sooner ... _in class with your instructor_.

For health, I'd learn yoga with a real instructor, rather than taijiquan from videos. Of course, I say that now, at my advanced age and level of unsurpassed wisdom.  Who knows what I would have said when I was young?


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Hmm ... I wonder: to what depth can one learn taijiquan from a video? If the answer is "not very deep", then why learn at all?
> 
> To my mind, if you can't get the internal benefits of taijiquan, you're just doing a nice slow dance, and if that's what you want, then fine. However, the real benefits of taijiquan are in how you feel inside, and the difference between "right" feeling and "wrong" feeling can't be seen on a video. It's a game of millimetres.
> 
> In my opinion, the best use of taijiquan videos is to accelerate the learning of the gross movements so you can begin instruction on the fine movements and sensations sooner ... _in class with your instructor_.
> 
> For health, I'd learn yoga with a real instructor, rather than taijiquan from videos. Of course, I say that now, at my advanced age and level of unsurpassed wisdom.  Who knows what I would have said when I was young?


 
QFT


---Also I should mention

I should have put this in my original post but for some reason I didn't... I must be getting old.. it is usually my standard answer
At best learning from a video is a supplement to learning with a real Sifu


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## chenlihong

Dan Cosgrove and woshuguy, thanks for your suggestions. A bit relieved now to learn that there is some, however fragile, hope of learning from videos and books too. 


@Xue sheng
Thanks for recommendations, mate. I have received a few videos and few more I have ordered. I have _yang jwing ming_'s 'Traditional yang taiji" video, _Chen xiaowang'_s "Chen style taijiquan laojia (old frame)" DVDs , _Yang Zheng Duo's _'yang form' DVDs and_ Liu jing  ru_'s instructional videos about xingyiquan.  A few more DVDs are on  their way. NOW, I am again confused. Any suggestions? I am attracted towards Chen taiji merely because it has more obvious manifestation of fajin. But in the end, I'll go for the art of which I have better resources, like videos and books.


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## chenlihong

mograph said:


> Hmm ... I wonder: to what depth can one learn taijiquan from a video? If the answer is "not very deep", then why learn at all?
> 
> To my mind, if you can't get the internal benefits of taijiquan, you're just doing a nice slow dance, and if that's what you want, then fine. However, the real benefits of taijiquan are in how you feel inside, and the difference between "right" feeling and "wrong" feeling can't be seen on a video. It's a game of millimetres.
> 
> In my opinion, the best use of taijiquan videos is to accelerate the learning of the gross movements so you can begin instruction on the fine movements and sensations sooner ... _in class with your instructor_.
> 
> For health, I'd learn yoga with a real instructor, rather than taijiquan from videos. Of course, I say that now, at my advanced age and level of unsurpassed wisdom.  Who knows what I would have said when I was young?




well, certainly not for health. I have several Yoga gurus here in India, and they are all good. As for learning from videos, yes, I am aware that my chances are little, and it is heartbreaking. But I still want to gather the best sources available and try to learn from them. Afterall, they sell those DVDs and it must be of some help. 
I am trying to read several books on taijiquan by jwing ming, to understand the whole concept of chi.


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## Xue Sheng

I didn't know Liu Jingru did Xingyiquan, I thought he was just Bagua.

Xingyiquan is decidedly different from Taijiquan and unless you have access to someone that can adjust your santi posture and you are also willing to work towards standing in santi for at least 20 minutes per side (40 minutes) per day you are not training Xingyiquan or Santi Shi


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## Flying Crane

OK, since ya asked, I'll post portions of a reply that I posted in another, related thread recently:

I tend to come down hard on people who come here and start posting about how they want to learn something from video. I think over the years my position has strengthened in this regard, and I've become something of an Immoveable Object. It's because I feel that strongly about it. As I mentioned in a prior post, even tho I knew video instruction was not a good idea I also experimented with it to some extent. I also saw firsthand how futile it really is. I've been there, I've done that, I know how bad of an idea it is. I'm speaking from experience. I believe video as a primary source of instruction is one of the worst things to pop up in the martial arts industry, and I will not make exceptions to my position.

So when someone comes on here and says, "hey everyone, I wanna play with a sword and I'm gonna try and learn something from video, and not only that but I'm gonna try and learn sword this way from half a dozen different systems, none of which do I have a background in nor do I want to have a background in, whaddaya all think of that?" Well, I'm gonna tell him what I think of it, it's a stupid idea and he is wasting his time and money and he should not do it. Period.

We live in a society that is largely defined around a sense of entitlement. People believe that no matter what I want, I have a right to get it. They do not want to consider the fact that, maybe what they want is not available to them, for very legitimate reasons like there is nobody in their area who can teach them what they want to learn. People always look for a way around that uncomfortable and inconvenient little detail. And when it comes to martial arts, they start looking at video as an option. 

But video is simply not a replacement for a good instructor. Not even a little bit. People justify it by claiming that, "well, I know it's best to have an instructor, but at least this is better than nothing". I've got news for everyone who makes that claim: no, it is not. It is not "better than nothing". It is actually worse than nothing. The transmission of a physical skill attached to a body of knowledge, thru the medium of video, leads to a severe breakdown in the final results. It is disastrous, and like I mentioned in a prior post, the individual usually doesn't even realize how bad it is. Not only is he usually ignorant of this fact, but many people lie to themselves once again and even convince themselves that they are actually pretty good.

There is one way to work around the absence of an instructor: move to someplace where an instructor is available. I did it in 1994 when I moved from Wisconsin to San Francisco. I knew this was a mecca for martial arts in the US, and there were some specific things here that I wanted to pursue. So I moved here and set up my life. 

I understand that this is not an option for many people. I happened to be in a stage of my life where it was possible for me to do that. Not everyone is in that stage and they cannot make the move. I hate to be a hardass, but all I can say to that is: tough. We don't always get what we want.

This country was thrown into a financial crisis because too many people with an entitlement mentality bought on credit that they could never repay. Predatory lenders took advantage of peoples' desperation to own things that they could not afford, and they extended dangerous amounts of credit and the house of cards finally collapsed. Look what that did to us as a nation.

Trying to learn from a video is like buying on credit that you have no hope of paying back. And instructors who market videos with the intention of selling them to anybody willing to part with a buck, under the illusion that they can actually learn from the video, are like the predatory lenders. They lack scruples, they would sell their own mother for a chance to make a profit, they ignore the long-term damage that they are doing, and I find it unacceptable.

I have no objection to using video as a tool, alongside quality instruction under a good teacher within a solid, on-going teacher-student relationship. If the video is used simply as a reference for the student to use as he learns properly from the instructor, then I do not object to it. Or, video can be used as a way of seeing what an art looks like and whether one might be interested in pursuing instruction.

But I will never endorse, and will always remain absolutely hostile to the idea of video as the primary and only source of instruction. Anybody who tells you that this is a viable option is either lying to you, or was lied to and believed the lies, or is simply ignorant and his judgement on the matter cannot be trusted.


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## jks9199

There are a very rare few who can successfully learn with video or books as their primary means of instruction.  These are the same rare few that would develop an effective martial art given some time and motivation, along with ample opportunities for trial and error. 

Most of us need an actual teacher who can stand in front of us and say "lean more left" or "tighten your forearm" or whatever.  Even for something as *apparently *simple as boxing -- there're just too many small details and pieces that it really helps to have someone able to show you and help you adjust.


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## Flying Crane

jks9199 said:


> There are a very rare few who can successfully learn with video or books as their primary means of instruction. These are the same rare few that would develop an effective martial art given some time and motivation, along with ample opportunities for trial and error.
> 
> Most of us need an actual teacher who can stand in front of us and say "lean more left" or "tighten your forearm" or whatever. Even for something as *apparently *simple as boxing -- there're just too many small details and pieces that it really helps to have someone able to show you and help you adjust.


 
More emphasis is needed:  VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY rare few who could do this.

And an art like taiji contains more subtleties than many others, and is even more difficult to "get it", even with a good instructor.

Without an instructor?  No way in hell.  You might be able to mimick the form and turn it into a dance, but I can promise you it will not be taiji.


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## ggg214

last weekend, i have visited my xin yi teacher. he give me some clues related to this thread.
he said it was better to train with teacher, not only because of receiving instructions in time, but also because it's easy to gain the feeling of right, especially qi gong training with teacher. 
there is a good example: my teacher had promised one of my shi xiong that if shi xiong could stay training with him for 2-3 hrs every day, 2 years later, shi xiong could be a good xin yi fighter. my shi xiong quit his job and followed. 2 years later, his fighting skills is one in best, much better than those who training with shifu  longer than him.
all in all, no teacher no CMA. if no taiji teacher, other style teacher is ok. teacher is a must.


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## mograph

Good posts, all. 

So Deepak, you don't want to learn this for health? Then for self-defence, I suppose? Without a teacher? Or do you just want to *imitate* Tai Chi people?

I say that evenly, with no malice, because without a sifu to answer your questions, correct your form in ways you cannot easily see and exert small forces upon your body to give you a physical sensation, that's what you'd be doing: *imitating* something you saw on a video. But this is not unfamiliar to us. There are many who say they know Tai Chi, but all they know is how to imitate someone's external form. 

I too, have bought a number of Tai Chi books and videos, and they only became useful when they could be compared with the instructions of my teachers and through push hands practice with fellow students in class. I've now found that if I can't apply it in class, I don't buy a book about it.

I think that some of us are irritated by this thread because we see it as an insult to Tai Chi. If it can be learned through videos and books alone, then it's not a very deep and internal art, but a shallow dance. If someone can "learn" Tai Chi (or any martial art) by imitating someone they saw on a video, then it's not much of an art. My friends who do Scottish Country Dancing look down on Tai Chi as something that's easy and not challenging. I think this is the general public's opinion of Tai Chi, and I suspect that Deepak (the OP) believes this at some level, otherwise he would not believe that it could be learned through videos and books alone.

My old Tai Chi teacher became the head of his club, partly due to his Sifu's passing. He then tried advancing his knowledge through old Chinese books and more recent videos, but finally realized that even at his advanced age of 65, he needs to learn from a living Master. So he found one, and is now studying with him.

Deepak, I can only hope that you read and see enough to ignite a desire inside yourself to travel far enough to find a sifu to make all you have read and seen become real.


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## wushuguy

From the books and videos, learn what you can but keep in mind always that without experience and a good teacher, what you learn from the books and videos can be considered for entertainment purposes only. when you find a qualified teacher, right environment to practice and understand the knowledge, then you can begin to change it to skill. 

It's an obvious difference when you see the movements of one who learned from a book or video and one who had a real instructor. The movements of one who learns from pictures is just odd and unlively... at first they might not notice, but hopefully after a while they'll understand a bit, and when a school opens near them, they will join.

Books and videos are great to spread the arts, we shouldn't be insulted from people trying to learn from them, but if encourage people to learn from them, it helps spread word of the art and also helps out instructors who move to that area.


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## Xue Sheng

Something to take into consideration when learning form a video, particularly some of the old CMA guys that have videos out there.

They do not always show the forms 100% correctly. The reason for this is so when some guy shows up saying I learned style A from Sifu 42, Sifu 42 can look at this guy and say...ahhhh you learned form my video. 

A lot of these guys are out to make a buck these days and it is next to impossible for them to keep track of absolutely everyone they teach at a seminar so they tweak the vid a bit.

I have seen it in a Xingyi DVD from a guy that allegedly knows Xingyiquan and after a discussion on another, now (sadly) defunct board, it was pretty much said that his hand position (and that is all it was) is different in the vid than he would teach face to face so he can tell who learned from video and who learned from him.


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## Devlin76

Hi Deepak,

I would agree with most everything that has already been said.  Training wtih videos and books alone is very difficult.  You have to be extremely motivated and objective about your own improvement.  I would suggest you pick the style you most want to learn, sounds like Chen Taijiquan, and pull together several resources for it.  Every instructor is going to be a little different, so be careful with mixing too many points of view.  And don't get fixated on just learning the long form.  Chen Xiao Wang has a set of ChanSiGong DVDs that is supposed to be really good.
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/dvd/dvdcoll_TCchenxiaowang.htm
You might want to think about trying to work through a "short" form instead of tackling the traditional long forms, since it might be easier to evaluate your progress.  Ren Guang-Yi has a DVD and book out on the Chen 38 form created by his teacher Chen Xiao Wang.  
http://www.amazon.com/Chen-Style-Taijiquan-Form-2-disc/dp/B001SAOTW6/

Good luck!


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## jjwalters

First let me say "hello" as I'm a new, but "old' guy and I wish to take another tack at this video question.

I first studied Karate while stationed on Okinawa just prior to Vietnam ...........the teacher at that time was Kanei Uechi and his school was in Futenma. 

Being off island much of the time I missed a lot of good training, but in six months I learned enough to keep it going for these fourty some years. 

Sanchin is something you never forget, but the kicking, punching, blocking soon takes on a form of your own. 

I still work out using the same fundamentals I learned from Kanei, but I doubt what I do would resemble his method perfectly as I have morphed his methods into my own. . . . . Although I never wanted a belt or any recognition of any kind karate has served me fine over the years.

Now I am interested in qigong and particularly activating my chi field to a higher degree for my own mental and physical healing. 

 I am learning the wuji qigong exercises from a video and seem to be doing quite well with it.......BUT I also know that the physical aspect, no matter how I learn it, is not my target.....the physical stuff (although important) is only helping my ability to activate chi through the addition of breathing and meditation. (The latter being the greater)

Perhaps I don't have a teacher, but IMO the video is enough to get me started and the end result will be up to my ability to concentrate and manipulate my chi far more than the teaching venue.

Anyways, I think some of you guys are too down on video study as a lot of this stuff regardless of how you learn it is up to the student.


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## ben

Xue Sheng said:


> Something to take into consideration when learning form a video, particularly some of the old CMA guys that have videos out there.
> 
> They do not always show the forms 100% correctly. The reason for this is so when some guy shows up saying I learned style A from Sifu 42, Sifu 42 can look at this guy and say...ahhhh you learned form my video.



Unfortunately this kind of thing is not unique to video instruction.


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## ben

Videos can be excellent tools.

While I think some of the folks here are being too harsh on video instruction they do make some good points.


You will still need training partners to practice with regularly.
You will still need to put yourself in front of a skilled teacher on a regular basis.
You should Research, cross-reference and compare.
and you will need to be self motivated.

If you are going to use videos there are a few things to keep in mind.

Teaching something on film is a lot different then teaching live. You may need to go through several videos before you find an instructor that can communicate well on film.

Also find out how accessible the instructor is. If all you want to learn is a form and some simple chi kung then this may not be necessary. However if you want to learn anything deeper or more complex (like tai chi) then you will probably have questions. Find out if you can call the instructor or send them an email when you have questions.

The important thing to remember is that a video is a tool. A good one can be very useful when used properly but it won't do the work for you.


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## Flying Crane

ben said:


> Also find out how accessible the instructor is. If all you want to learn is a form and some simple chi kung then this may not be necessary.


 
a form and "simple" qigong? It doesn't exist. It holds a place in modern mythology right there along with the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Leprechauns, and Santa Claus. 

There is no form, nor qigong so simple that you can learn it properly and well from video alone. Even the "simplest" form has far too many nuances and important details to trust to video instruction.


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## Xue Sheng

Train taiji without a Sifu and you will likely be doing bad taiji. Train qigong without a Sifu and you can cause yourself serious damage


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> Train taiji without a Sifu and you will likely be doing bad taiji. Train qigong without a Sifu and you can cause yourself serious damage


 

yeah, ya know, I just really really don't get it when people think they can just pick something like this up from watching a video.  I mean, this stuff is actually quite subtle and sophisticated if it's being done correctly.  Gungfu/wushu isn't just "waive your arms and kick any old way, and you've got it!" kind of stuff.  There are very specific ways of punching, kicking, stances, moving, generation of power, etc.  All kinds of things that you cannot pick up and understand thru watching a video.  Even the most simple-looking stuff.  Learning a form from a video makes an absolute mockery of the form.  Welcome to the clown show.


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## grydth

chenlihong said:


> Hello fellow members, greetings from India.
> Like all of us, I am very much interested into internal martial arts, particularly taijiquan. In past, i was lucky enough to find a sifu who taught me taiji an xingyi for a few weeks. He called the system as 'tao chi chaun' . Unfortunately I had to move very far from that place and now I don't have anyone even remotely associated with martial arts, let alone taiji. There isn't a day goes by i don't think about learning complete art of taijiquan.  I know it is being optimistic to the limit of foolishness, but , is it possible that i could learn taijiquan from some of the instructional DVDs out there?  In case there are, would "yang form taught by   _Yang Zheng Duo (_son of   [FONT=&quot]_Yang Chen Fu )" _be recommended? Or, should I go for Yang jwing-ming's DVDs instead?
> I am more interested into chen taijiquan, but looks like there are very few resources about chen style available.  If you happen to know any, please let me know. Any help regarding books, videos and DVDs is much appreciated.
> 
> Regards
> Deepak
> 
> 
> [/FONT]



Like many here, I do not believe it is possible to learn only from a video/DVD. These, like books, can be useful in providing _additional_ information and insight, but almost always this is only possible after a good grounding from a teacher *in person*. Seriously, you can do yourself more harm than good!

You may _think_ you are doing the form as shown by the DVD, but in reality you may be making errors which are serious.... unlike a live teacher, the DVD cannot correct you and explain why you must change. You cannot ask the DVD questions if something is unclear.

Being from North America, I have no idea what is available in India, but perhaps you should make further efforts to find a qualified teacher within reasonable distance... perhaps, like here in the USA, you have to look harder and ask around to find the good ones.

In the meantime, you can watch the DVDs you have to see what seems interesting. Good luck, and I hope to hear you have found somebody to give you the personal instruction you need. Please keep us updated.


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## Touch Of Death

jks9199 said:


> There are a very rare few who can successfully learn with video or books as their primary means of instruction. These are the same rare few that would develop an effective martial art given some time and motivation, along with ample opportunities for trial and error.
> 
> Most of us need an actual teacher who can stand in front of us and say "lean more left" or "tighten your forearm" or whatever. Even for something as *apparently *simple as boxing -- there're just too many small details and pieces that it really helps to have someone able to show you and help you adjust.


If the video teaches basic drills. I don't see how it can't help.
sean


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## GHETTO NINJA

dudes at shoalin were learning by watching animals and insects fight , so you could learn from anything.


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## ben

Flying Crane said:


> a form and "simple" qigong? It doesn't exist. It holds a place in modern mythology right there along with the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Leprechauns, and Santa Claus.
> 
> There is no form, nor qigong so simple that you can learn it properly and well from video alone. Even the "simplest" form has far too many nuances and important details to trust to video instruction.



There are plenty of simple qigong exercises that can be easily and safely learned by video. 

Learning forms by video is not hard either. If learning the physical movement was the difficult part of Tai Chi every halfway decent dancer and their clumsy cousin would be a tai chi master.

The internal stuff is what makes tai chi what it is. Not the movement.

Even complex and complicated things can be learned by video.

Learning by video is a common practice among medical professionals. Surgeons learn new surgical procedures by video. Dentists learn new dental techniques by video. They may learn a lot in medical school that the rest of us don't know, but they don't get some magical "video learning ability" that the rest of us don't have.

Tai Chi doesn't have some magical quality that prevents it from being taught on film. 

Yes you do need someone to practice with, and yes you should work with someone who is more skilled than you on a semi regular basis, but as long as you are willing to do the work you can learn by video.

The difficulty with video instruction is not the "video" part. The difficulty is in finding quality instruction. (but that's true with live training as well.)


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## blindsage

ben said:


> There are plenty of simple qigong exercises that can be easily and safely learned by video.
> 
> Learning forms by video is not hard either. If learning the physical movement was the difficult part of Tai Chi every halfway decent dancer and their clumsy cousin would be a tai chi master.
> 
> The internal stuff is what makes tai chi what it is. Not the movement.
> 
> Even complex and complicated things can be learned by video.
> 
> Learning by video is a common practice among medical professionals. Surgeons learn new surgical procedures by video. Dentists learn new dental techniques by video. They may learn a lot in medical school that the rest of us don't know, but they don't get some magical "video learning ability" that the rest of us don't have.
> 
> Tai Chi doesn't have some magical quality that prevents it from being taught on film.
> 
> Yes you do need someone to practice with, and yes you should work with someone who is more skilled than you on a semi regular basis, but as long as you are willing to do the work you can learn by video.
> 
> The difficulty with video instruction is not the "video" part. The difficulty is in finding quality instruction. (but that's true with live training as well.)


How many surgeons have you met that have learned how to perform ALL of their surgical techniques by video?  How many dentists?  It's not about 'magical video learning ability', it's about the fact that people want to learn strictly from video from scratch, and no it is not possible.  

The subtleties of the physical movements from sinking the shoulders and elbows to not double weighting are things that are very hard to understand from just watching a video, no matter how many times it's mentioned in the video.  And coming from a dance background your analogy is profoundly flawed.  Dancers learn their physical methods of _movement_ from diligent time spent in person with instructors.  Hell even b-boying (break dancing) is done this way. You can tell who learned from an older dancer by whether their Uprock is worth a damn or if they just learned a bunch of acrobatic power moves at home.  Anybody can work out and learned to jump high, nobody is learning a proper ballet jette from watching the Bolshoi on tv.

Can you learn an approximation of the choreography of a form from video, sure, but it's not the same, and since there are specific purpose and uses of the movements, not doing them correctly makes them irrelevant.  

Now, if you already have in person training and you are using a video as a _supplement _to that training, no one here has a problem with that and has clearly said so in the past.  But that is not what this thread is about.  It's about learning a form basically from scratch.  Going through the choreography without understanding the actual movement and body principles is really not doing the form anymore than memorizing the choreography of the Nutcracker without the actual physical skills to do pointe or jette's or even basic ballet positions is actually performing the piece.


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## Bill Mattocks

I saw a DVD on how to ride a bicycle.  Seemed to make sense.  I was so upset when I tried to ride a real bicycle and kept falling over!  I don't get it; I was pedaling and steering just like the video showed me to!


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## Xue Sheng

Bill Mattocks said:


> I saw a DVD on how to ride a bicycle. Seemed to make sense. I was so upset when I tried to ride a real bicycle and kept falling over! I don't get it; I was pedaling and steering just like the video showed me to!


 
Well Bill, I will tell you where you went wrong right after I finish my DVD lessons on how to safely defuse a bomb.... lets see first you get a rocket launcher and.....

:redeme:


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## Brian R. VanCise

Hey Xue and Bill,

*I am learning how to fly airplanes via dvd*. :highfive: Next week I take my dvd test and will be certified to fly.  So let's rent a plane fly to a location that has bombs that Xue can defuse and a bike that bill can learn to ride. 
Next month I am learning how to be a world champion surfer via dvd.  They say I do not even have to be near the water it is possible to learn right in your living room. (sorry about all the sarcasm folks)  So I will fly us to Hawaii to surf and maybe enter a competition! 

*Seriously folks you really do yourself a disservice trying to learn via dvd*.  Find a real instructor and learn the basics and progress and then maybe you can use dvd's as successful reference tools.  I have seen to many people damaged because they tried the online training or dvd route. (damaged in that they had to work really hard to unlearn the bad habits that they ingrained)


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## Brian R. VanCise

Now I am all for books, dvd's any type of video used as reference points for experienced martial practitioners.  Just not solely learning via dvd or online training.  In the end we all need someone to point out our mistakes and make corrections for us.  It really does not matter who you are you need that feedback from a live in the moment instructor.  Good luck!


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## jks9199

ben said:


> There are plenty of simple qigong exercises that can be easily and safely learned by video.
> 
> Learning forms by video is not hard either. If learning the physical movement was the difficult part of Tai Chi every halfway decent dancer and their clumsy cousin would be a tai chi master.
> 
> The internal stuff is what makes tai chi what it is. Not the movement.
> 
> Even complex and complicated things can be learned by video.
> 
> Learning by video is a common practice among medical professionals. Surgeons learn new surgical procedures by video. Dentists learn new dental techniques by video. They may learn a lot in medical school that the rest of us don't know, but they don't get some magical "video learning ability" that the rest of us don't have.
> 
> Tai Chi doesn't have some magical quality that prevents it from being taught on film.
> 
> Yes you do need someone to practice with, and yes you should work with someone who is more skilled than you on a semi regular basis, but as long as you are willing to do the work you can learn by video.
> 
> The difficulty with video instruction is not the "video" part. The difficulty is in finding quality instruction. (but that's true with live training as well.)


You can learn lots of things by video.  I've learned woodworking techniques, language, and more via video.  I've learned lots by watching videos of traffic stops and other police encounters.  And I can learn a drill or even some kata by video -- but there's a catch to that.

I probably can't learn a completely new system that way, any more than I can watch a teaching video of a surgery and be able to perform it.  For me to learn, I need a basic grounding; I need to be shown the tricks and little weight shifts or subtle alignments that only a teacher can tell you and correct in person.  That's the distinction I'm drawing; I'm saying a person with limited knowledge and exposure in the past can't learn from video, any more than reading the_ densho_ or scrolls of a very traditional martial art will teach you the art without the training and principles learned through years of study.


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## East Winds

It never ceases to amaze me when I am teaching a beginners class, how some peoples perception of what I am demonstrating bears so little relation to what I am actually doing!!!!! Exactly the same problem with DVD's and Videos!!!!! Trying to learn from them is a waste of time and money.

Very best wishes


----------



## ben

blindsage said:


> Going through the choreography without understanding the actual movement and body principles is really not doing the form


I'd agree with you on this point if it read: Going through the form without understanding the actual body mechanics and internal principles is not really doing Tai Chi.

Many people spend years going to a tai chi class and learning lots of pretty forms (or choreography if you prefer) without ever understanding basic structural body mechanics much less Tai Chi.

Of course live training from a good instructor is going to be better and faster than good video training, but live training from a bad instructor is NOT better than good video instruction.

Every criticism of video instruction that I've seen so far has little or nothing to do with the video part and many could easily apply to live instruction as well.

For example:



> Tai Chi forms are to intricate/ complex


Learning complex task is by video is commonplace in many different professions including the medical field where someones health often depends upon the quality of training.



> students must be extremely dedicated


If you won't do the work you wont get anywhere no matter how you got your training.



> sometimes videos intentionally contain incorrect instruction


this has nothing to do with the video and every thing to do with the instruction, and it's been happening since long before video was invented



> you can't ask questions[\quote]
> That depends on the teacher. Find a teacher who will answer questions about their videos.
> Many people who teach live often hide their answers in mysticism or philosophy so finding a teacher who will answer questions is a problem that any Tai Chi may face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> students will get it wrong and think they have it right / no one is there to correct you
> 
> 
> 
> This is a common problem with many videos but its a problem with the instruction. Any good video will contain tests, exercises and drills that can be done by yourself or with an untrained partner that will allow someone to see and feel whether they are performing a skill or movement correctly.
> 
> This problem exists with live instruction as well. There are plenty of folks out there who have trained in bad habits because their teacher didn't know any better or just didn't bother to correct them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can learn from video but only if you already have a lot of previous experience
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is the fault of the instructor for calling something a beginners dvd and then not breaking down the material in a way that beginners can understand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Internal stuff has to be felt. It can't be seen so it can't be taught on video
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This may be the case with a few very high level internal skills, but in most cases Good instruction and tests & exercises like what I described above will overcome this obstacle
> 
> All of the criticisms above are things a prospective Tai Chi student should watch out for but they are true about live training just as often as they are about video training.
> 
> Finding good instruction is not about the format (private lesson, small class, seminar, video or whatever) It's about finding a good teacher no matter what format they choose to teach in.
> 
> Being able to communicate well is an essential skill for anyone who is teaching. Any good teacher is continually learning, improving, refining and honing this skill.
> 
> Unfortunately, in the martial arts pretending to teach is so commonplace that many people can't tell the difference. In fact many folks think they're teaching when they are actually pretending to teach because that's the way their teacher pretended to teach them.
> 
> Ultimately any failure or breakdown in communication is the responsibility of the one doing the communicating. Blaming the setting, the medium, the format or the student is only an excuse.
> 
> Any good teacher will admit this because they are students themselves and they know that recognizing and understanding their mistakes is the only way to improve.
Click to expand...


----------



## Flying Crane

blindsage said:


> Can you learn an approximation of the choreography of a form from video, sure, but it's not the same, and since there are specific purpose and uses of the movements, not doing them correctly makes them irrelevant.


 
Preach, Brother Sage!!


----------



## Xue Sheng

ben said:


> I'd agree with you on this point if it read: Going through the form without understanding the actual body mechanics and internal principles is not really doing Tai Chi.
> 
> Many people spend years going to a tai chi class and learning lots of pretty forms (or choreography if you prefer) without ever understanding basic structural body mechanics much less Tai Chi.
> 
> Of course live training from a good instructor is going to be better and faster than good video training, but live training from a bad instructor is NOT better than good video instruction.
> 
> Every criticism of video instruction that I've seen so far has little or nothing to do with the video part and many could easily apply to live instruction as well.
> 
> For example:
> 
> Learning complex task is by video is commonplace in many different professions including the medical field where someones health often depends upon the quality of training.
> 
> If you won't do the work you wont get anywhere no matter how you got your training.
> 
> this has nothing to do with the video and every thing to do with the instruction, and it's been happening since long before video was invented
> 
> 
> That depends on the teacher. Find a teacher who will answer questions about their videos.
> Many people who teach live often hide their answers in mysticism or philosophy so finding a teacher who will answer questions is a problem that any Tai Chi may face.
> 
> This is a common problem with many videos but its a problem with the instruction. Any good video will contain tests, exercises and drills that can be done by yourself or with an untrained partner that will allow someone to see and feel whether they are performing a skill or movement correctly.
> 
> This problem exists with live instruction as well. There are plenty of folks out there who have trained in bad habits because their teacher didn't know any better or just didn't bother to correct them.
> 
> This is the fault of the instructor for calling something a beginners dvd and then not breaking down the material in a way that beginners can understand.
> 
> This may be the case with a few very high level internal skills, but in most cases Good instruction and tests & exercises like what I described above will overcome this obstacle
> 
> All of the criticisms above are things a prospective Tai Chi student should watch out for but they are true about live training just as often as they are about video training.
> 
> Finding good instruction is not about the format (private lesson, small class, seminar, video or whatever) It's about finding a good teacher no matter what format they choose to teach in.
> 
> Being able to communicate well is an essential skill for anyone who is teaching. Any good teacher is continually learning, improving, refining and honing this skill.
> 
> Unfortunately, in the martial arts pretending to teach is so commonplace that many people can't tell the difference. In fact many folks think they're teaching when they are actually pretending to teach because that's the way their teacher pretended to teach them.
> 
> Ultimately any failure or breakdown in communication is the responsibility of the one doing the communicating. Blaming the setting, the medium, the format or the student is only an excuse.
> 
> Any good teacher will admit this because they are students themselves and they know that recognizing and understanding their mistakes is the only way to improve.


 
Basically you need a good instructor and in taiji that is hard to find these days. And virtually ALL video training without some background with a good instructor can lead to bad posture and bad understanding as will training with a bad instructor, but train with a good instructor and you will get good training as well as understanding. Train from DVD from a good instructor you may or may not get good training and you will get very little, if any true understanding. One of the best combinations I have seen, as far as DVD training goes, is for 24 form and that comes from Liang Shouyu and it is in combination with his book on the topic and I still would not recommend it as someone&#8217;s main source of training.

Now based on my personal experience.

Chen Zhenglei is a good instructor and he has good videos as well. However try and learn Chan Su Jin from only his video and you will miss the point. Go to class with him and have him train you and it becomes much more clear and then the video becomes a good training tool.

Note to Mysticism; First it is not always mysticism it can be inpatients on the part of the student, the &#8220;I ask the question or asked to be taught a certain thing therefore I have the right to an answer or to be taught, in fact I demand it&#8221; (the whole entitlement thing). My taiji Sifu (Yang style) is a good instructor and highly skilled but he will not answer all questions asked from all people nor will he show you a form or application just because you ask. The reason for this is, and this is a VERY hard pill to swallow for most of us in the West, he knows better than the student as to what they can understand and what they are ready to learn. It is not mysticism; it is over 50 years of experience with a very good training background.


----------



## dancingalone

Xue Sheng said:


> My taiji Sifu (Yang style) is a good instructor and highly skilled but he will not answer all questions asked from all people nor will he show you a form or application just because you ask. The reason for this is, and this is a VERY hard pill to swallow for most of us in the West, he knows better than the student as to what they can understand and what they are ready to learn. It is not mysticism; it is over 50 years of experience with a very good training background.



It might also be a cultural phenomenon.  My Okinawan karate sensei had much the same attitude.  Now that I teach myself, I tend to be more open.  I will cheerfully demo a form or show an application if class time permits with the obvious verbal reminder that not everyone present will be ready or able to duplicate what I show.  I think it does no harm.  It inspires students to know what is capable if they stick at training long and hard enough.


----------



## blindsage

ben said:


> I'd agree with you on this point if it read: Going through the form without understanding the actual body mechanics and internal principles is not really doing Tai Chi.


But then you go on to explain how you disagree. You cannot properly learn the actual body mechanics from video alone.



> Many people spend years going to a tai chi class and learning lots of pretty forms (or choreography if you prefer) without ever understanding basic structural body mechanics much less Tai Chi.
> 
> Of course live training from a good instructor is going to be better and faster than good video training, but live training from a bad instructor is NOT better than good video instruction.


At no point did anyone claim bad live training was beneficial in any way, but this comment changes the discussion. We are not talking about bad live vs. good video, we are talking the inherent value of video learning.



> Every criticism of video instruction that I've seen so far has little or nothing to do with the video part and many could easily apply to live instruction as well.


They could, but again this twists the discussion out of the realm it has previously been in, seemingly in order to prove your point. We aren't talking about whether video compares to bad live training or not. What is being said is that video training doesn't compare to proper live training under any circumstances.



> Learning complex task is by video is commonplace in many different professions including the medical field where someones health often depends upon the quality of training.


You said this before and then completely ignored the respones and criticism of the argument. Restating it doesn't make it any more valid.



> If you won't do the work you wont get anywhere no matter how you got your training.
> 
> this has nothing to do with the video and every thing to do with the instruction, and it's been happening since long before video was invented


But, again, you are assuming no one else has thought at all in depth about this. Yes, it has everything to do with instruction _and_ video, and that you cannot get good, proper instruction through video alone.



> you can't ask questions[\quote]
> That depends on the teacher. Find a teacher who will answer questions about their videos.
> Many people who teach live often hide their answers in mysticism or philosophy so finding a teacher who will answer questions is a problem that any Tai Chi may face.


You generally can't ask question when you're using video. You may, if lucky, find someone you can distance communicate with, but that still isn't remotely the same as live instruction. Instructors hiding answers in mysticism is a whole other issue unrelated to what we are discussing.



> This is a common problem with many videos but its a problem with the instruction. Any good video will contain tests, exercises and drills that can be done by yourself or with an untrained partner that will allow someone to see and feel whether they are performing a skill or movement correctly.


How? How do you check, if you have no frame of reference? Please explain to me what tests you can use through video instruction alone to teach proper leading skills or rooting?



> This problem exists with live instruction as well. There are plenty of folks out there who have trained in bad habits because their teacher didn't know any better or just didn't bother to correct them.


Of course it can exist in live instruction as well, no one said it didn't. Again, it's irrellevant to the point.



> This is the fault of the instructor for calling something a beginners dvd and then not breaking down the material in a way that beginners can understand.


No, it's the fault of those who assume those skills can be passed in any meaningfull way by video alone.



> This may be the case with a few very high level internal skills, but in most cases Good instruction and tests & exercises like what I described above will overcome this obstacle


Again, how? How does someone understand proper sinking or moving from the dantien without feeling it in person from someone who can actually do it? These are things you generally can't see unless already experienced in them.



> All of the criticisms above are things a prospective Tai Chi student should watch out for but they are true about live training just as often as they are about video training.


No, they are just as often about poor live training as they are about _any_ video training. 



> Finding good instruction is not about the format (private lesson, small class, seminar, video or whatever) It's about finding a good teacher no matter what format they choose to teach in.


Good training is always about finding a good teacher, but format does matter, period.



> Being able to communicate well is an essential skill for anyone who is teaching. Any good teacher is continually learning, improving, refining and honing this skill.


Of course, that doesn't mean they overcome the limits of the format.



> Unfortunately, in the martial arts pretending to teach is so commonplace that many people can't tell the difference. In fact many folks think they're teaching when they are actually pretending to teach because that's the way their teacher pretended to teach them.


Hopefully, this isn't a thinly veiled dig at the rest of us because we don't agree with you.



> Ultimately any failure or breakdown in communication is the responsibility of the one doing the communicating. Blaming the setting, the medium, the format or the student is only an excuse.
> 
> Any good teacher will admit this because they are students themselves and they know that recognizing and understanding their mistakes is the only way to improve.


The assumptions and condescension in these two paragraphs are pretty high. You're entire argument is based on an assumption that video instruction can be as good as live instruction, with examples to match. Unfortunately the logic of that assumption and the examples you used has been addressed in multiple other post and you have chosen to ignore that part of this thread in order to further the argument of your assumption. The experience and logic of a number of very experienced martial artists disputes your assertion, maybe that should be taken into account and not just brushed off as a condescending assumption of 'pretending to teach'.


----------



## Flying Crane

blindsage said:


> How? How do you check, if you have no frame of reference? Please explain to me what tests you can use through video instruction alone to teach proper leading skills or rooting?
> 
> Again, how? How does someone understand proper sinking or moving from the dantien without feeling it in person from someone who can actually do it? These are things you generally can't see unless already experienced in them.


 
Do I say it?  Do I?  Do I...?

OK, I'll say it:

I'm sorry Blindsage, but to get the answers you seek, you will just need to buy all the videos that "Ben" is hawking.  Just follow his webpage link...

There, I said it.  Come hell or high water.


----------



## Flying Crane

I sometimes think it would be an interesting experiment to make a video about Tibetan White Crane and give it to someone with either zero martial arts experience, or else experience from a completely different system like Shotokan or kenpo or something.  Tell them to work diligently with the video for a year without any other sources, and then check back and see how they are doing.

I'd even be really thorough in the explanations and stuff, give them all the info they need in the video to learn the basics and then the most basic form in the system.

It would be interesting to see what the result is after a year.  The problem is, I don't think it's ethical to toy with people in that way.


----------



## dancingalone

Flying Crane said:


> I sometimes think it would be an interesting experiment to make a video about Tibetan White Crane and give it to someone with either zero martial arts experience, or else experience from a completely different system like Shotokan or kenpo or something.  Tell them to work diligently with the video for a year without any other sources, and then check back and see how they are doing.
> 
> I'd even be really thorough in the explanations and stuff, give them all the info they need in the video to learn the basics and then the most basic form in the system.
> 
> It would be interesting to see what the result is after a year.  The problem is, I don't think it's ethical to toy with people in that way.




Why not pick a simpler style?  I think the chance for a better outcome would be higher.


----------



## mograph

Sidebar:

A friend of mine once asserted that you could learn anything from a book. She wanted to learn golf, so she read about it, then her husband took her out for her first round of golf. 

She'll never golf again. It's a "stupid game", apparently, not worth learning. 

They're still married. Barely.


----------



## Flying Crane

dancingalone said:


> Why not pick a simpler style? I think the chance for a better outcome would be higher.


 
well, because it's what I do, and who says it's any more complex than any other?

The basic form I am talking about is literally walking down and back throwing six different types of handstrikes.  It's the basic strikes in our system, with appropriate stances and stepping.  But we do them in a very particular way, and I honestly doubt someone would really grasp what is happening without a good teacher to guide him.


----------



## dancingalone

Flying Crane said:


> well, because it's what I do, and who says it's any more complex than any other?



You also do kenpo, right?  As for complexity, dunno about your Tibetan Crane, but during my time on MT, I've seen numerous statements about CMAs, particularly those classified as internal, being rather subtle and complex.

I just think if one really wanted to carry out your proposed experiment, it would seem a better test case would examine a set of skills deemed 'basic' or 'simple'.  Now whatever system that might be, who knows?  Perhaps you don't even bother operating under a system.  Just try to teach discrete basics instead.



Flying Crane said:


> The basic form I am talking about is literally walking down and back throwing six different types of handstrikes.  It's the basic strikes in our system, with appropriate stances and stepping.  But we do them in a very particular way, and I honestly doubt someone would really grasp what is happening without a good teacher to guide him.



Yeah.  Not having seen the form, I've no idea how tough it really is to grasp without guidance.  On the other hand, I do have my suspicions that a form like the taikyoku kata from Shotokan karate might be doable with an intelligent and motivated student.  That form only uses a front stance, down block, and lunge punch.


----------



## Flying Crane

dancingalone said:


> You also do kenpo, right? As for complexity, dunno about your Tibetan Crane, but during my time on MT, I've seen numerous statements about CMAs, particularly those classified as internal, being rather subtle and complex.
> 
> I just think if one really wanted to carry out your proposed experiment, it would seem a better test case would examine a set of skills deemed 'basic' or 'simple'. Now whatever system that might be, who knows? Perhaps you don't even bother operating under a system. Just try to teach discrete basics instead.


 
yes, I'm a kenpo guy as well, but there are plenty of instructional videos out there for kenpo. I haven't seen any in TWC tho, and it's not classified as an internal system. It actually has some characteristics of both internal and external, tho if one had to choose either/or, I'd put it with external.

As far as teaching skills deemed as "basic", yes that is what I was thinking. They would be basic skills and a basic form of TWC, as done within that methodology.

Even so, it sort of skirts the point a bit, if one were to insist that they be limited to strictly basic skills. The argument is, after all, whether someone can learn thru video alone. Granted, if it were at all possible (which I do not believe), there would be less and less chance of success as the complexity of the material increased and one moved into more advanced material.



> Yeah. Not having seen the form, I've no idea how tough it really is to grasp without guidance. On the other hand, I do have my suspicions that a form like the taikyoku kata from Shotokan karate might be doable with an intelligent and motivated student. That form only uses a front stance, down block, and lunge punch.


 
No knowing the shotokan, I can't comment specifically. But it's my suspicion that all systems are complex, in their own way. They have their own nuances and specific ways of doing things, and to someone who has not yet received training in those ways, it would seem complex and elusive thru video. I don't think that one system is necessarily more complex than another. It's just that they are complex in their own way. For some people, one particular method might not work welll, but for others it would. A lot of that depends on the right system for the right person.

But I still do not believe that one can learn thru video alone, other than a shallow mimickry of the choreography.


----------



## dancingalone

Flying Crane said:


> Even so, it sort of skirts the point a bit, if one were to insist that they be limited to strictly basic skills. The argument is, after all, whether someone can learn thru video alone. Granted, if it were at all possible (which I do not believe), there would be less and less chance of success as the complexity of the material increased and one moved into more advanced material.



That seems intuitively correct even without research to back it up.  It is a much less daunting task to teach basic skills via video rather than advanced ones, which are compound expressions of the basic ones often with the need for sensitivity added which only comes from experience.  I've written here before and I think you've even commented on it, that I had a complete MA newbie come to me proudly after explaining he had taught himself the roundhouse kick by watching an instructional video.  And truthfully he had.  Sure I had to make a important correction, but the incident really opened my eyes about what can be possible with the right student and resource combination.



> No knowing the shotokan, I can't comment specifically. But it's my suspicion that all systems are complex, in their own way. They have their own nuances and specific ways of doing things, and to someone who has not yet received training in those ways, it would seem complex and elusive thru video. I don't think that one system is necessarily more complex than another. It's just that they are complex in their own way. For some people, one particular method might not work welll, but for others it would. A lot of that depends on the right system for the right person.
> 
> But I still do not believe that one can learn thru video alone, other than a shallow mimickry of the choreography.



I believe discrete, isolated skills can be taught via video.  You still need in-person instruction to correct your mistakes and give you improvement tips however.  The key is that the video must be detailed enough and the student must be persistent and bodily aware enough to follow the video.  

We all rail on video instruction (I have too) because it's executed poorly.  The fact is that even teaching a 'simple' technique like the reverse punch would probably take a few hours on video to do, since presumably an exhaustive core dump would have to be made by the recorded teacher.  In person, that doesn't happen.  You give the student a little bit at a time at his rate of absorption since you have the luxury of seeing him several times a week.  The typical video only skirts briefly on each technique, trying to pack everything into a minimal time frame.  The detail just isn't there and that's why the video student doesn't even have a chance.

I wonder if it would be different if quality instructional videos were actually out there.  The cost of producing something that even approximates a core dump would be ruinous since the filmer would never recoup his initial investment.


----------



## Flying Crane

dancingalone said:


> That seems intuitively correct even without research to back it up. It is a much less daunting task to teach basic skills via video rather than advanced ones, which are compound expressions of the basic ones often with the need for sensitivity added which only comes from experience. I've written here before and I think you've even commented on it, that I had a complete MA newbie come to me proudly after explaining he had taught himself the roundhouse kick by watching an instructional video. And truthfully he had. Sure I had to make a important correction, but the incident really opened my eyes about what can be possible with the right student and resource combination.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe discrete, isolated skills can be taught via video. You still need in-person instruction to correct your mistakes and give you improvement tips however. The key is that the video must be detailed enough and the student must be persistent and bodily aware enough to follow the video.
> 
> We all rail on video instruction (I have too) because it's executed poorly. The fact is that even teaching a 'simple' technique like the reverse punch would probably take a few hours on video to do, since presumably an exhaustive core dump would have to be made by the recorded teacher. In person, that doesn't happen. You give the student a little bit at a time at his rate of absorption since you have the luxury of seeing him several times a week. The typical video only skirts briefly on each technique, trying to pack everything into a minimal time frame. The detail just isn't there and that's why the video student doesn't even have a chance.
> 
> I wonder if it would be different if quality instructional videos were actually out there. The cost of producing something that even approximates a core dump would be ruinous since the filmer would never recoup his initial investment.


 
Good points you make, and I think that if a truly thorough and exhaustive, core dump instructional video were made, it would be the even more rare individual who would be willing to dig into it and give it the effort and dedication that it would take to learn in this way.  I suspect that most people would find it boring.  Everybody wants to be entertained.  Who would want to sit thru two hours of instructional video on the reverse punch?  And go over it over and over to really understand it?  And of these rare people, it would be an even more rare person who could actually self-critique effectively and recognize his own mistakes and truly fix them.

I would be really surprised if that magic combination ever came together.  

Everybody wants to believe that they are that exceptional person.  But no, they are not.


----------



## Carol

dancingalone said:


> I wonder if it would be different if quality instructional videos were actually out there.  The cost of producing something that even approximates a core dump would be ruinous since the filmer would never recoup his initial investment.



The content is limited by the market.    In Kenpo, for example, one can find instructional videos from white to black for X hundred dollars....I think a typical range for a reputed program is $400-$700 bucks. Some instructors have done supplemental videos to drill in to a concept, some folks such as Larry Tatum have done podcasts to illustrate a finer point.

However there isn't (to my knowledge) a DVD for (say) $39 that flies through the techs, white to black, in a way that might help a 1st Brown prepare for that long BB test.   I also don't think there is an option to pay (say) $3000 to get the DVD that goes in to excruciating detail.

I have seen folks that have done very well.  Mr. Bill Parsons, for example, is a 3rd Dan in the IKCA, and in my opinion he is a very good Kenpoist and teacher.  The difference is he also had a 3rd dan in Hapkido before learning the Kenpo system.

As someone that works nights, I can appreciate how life circumstances can take a person away from their training, and I think our men and women abroad are particularly concerned about it.

To be honest, one of the better implementations I've seen has been Gracie University.  It includes the video instruction, a community to ask questions, and a member directory so you can other people in your area to roll with.  I still wouldn't dream of learning BJJ via video!! However, I do give props to Ryron and Renner for building a system around the training, and not just a one-and-done DVD.


----------



## Flying Crane

There is another side to this question, and that is: why does an instructor feel the need to produce instructional videos and make his art available in this manner, to the masses?

There is an obvious answer: $$$$$, and empire-building.

But aside from the obvious answer, is there another reason?  I honestly don't understand the need or desire to "get the art out there" and spread it around and get as many people as possible doing your art.  I could never understand a need for this, nor why anyone would want to do it.

Why do people feel that every/any system ought to be available to anyone who wants it?


----------



## Carol

Flying Crane said:


> There is another side to this question, and that is: why does an instructor feel the need to produce instructional videos and make his art available in this manner, to the masses?
> 
> There is an obvious answer: $$$$$, and empire-building.
> 
> But aside from the obvious answer, is there another reason?  I honestly don't understand the need or desire to "get the art out there" and spread it around and get as many people as possible doing your art.  I could never understand a need for this, nor why anyone would want to do it.
> 
> Why do people feel that every/any system ought to be available to anyone who wants it?



Difference of philosophical opinion maybe?  Not everyone that wants it is going to be able to get it.    The person that gets the DVD because they are not disciplined enough to go to class is probably not going get very far.  But the a soldier picks up a video program and bangs with a battle buddy, or the EMTs that are on shift until Midnight, and then gather in someone's garage for a workout, may actually get constructive use for it.  

Personally I don't support holding back information.  I think the more information that is available for a system, the easier it is to separate the (forgive me, Domino's) truthery from the puffery.

The other aspect is....isn't the best part of training, being in class?  Forming new friendships with people you never would have met otherwise, watching your instructor's face smile and glow as you pull new material together, the bonds you form with other people...whether its the mentor that helped you through a personal struggle, or your buddies that joined you for a pizza.   What ever the experiences were, would you trade them for anything?  I know I wouldn't.


----------



## Flying Crane

Carol said:


> Personally I don't support holding back information. I think the more information that is available for a system, the easier it is to separate the (forgive me, Domino's) truthery from the puffery.


 
oh, and my position is not about holding back info. It's not that I feel it needs to be secret or mysterious or something. I'm more concerned with the appropriate methods for transferring the information and skills from one generation to the next. I just don't feel video is the way to do it, and I feel that empire-building often leads to a loss of quality-control. Lots of people are learning it and doing it and the art is spreading, but they are all doing it poorly. Then the next generation, and the one after that, are even worse.  In my opinion, a good teacher who is selective about who his students are, and develops a strong and interactive relationship with those students while teaching them, is the best way to do it.  It's the only way to get it across on a high level.  Once you've got too many students, your teaching time and attention is spread too thin and you can't give each student the attention he/she needs to grow and learn appropriately.  Even worse on video, because there is a complete disconnect between the teacher and student.

My sisuk (kung fu uncle) and I were talking about it one eveing, and he was saying that, with White Crane, there is no reason to hide or be secretive, because nobody wants to do it anyway. It looks a little odd, not what most people raised on a diet of MMA believe a fighting art SHOULD look like, and it takes a lot of work to learn it. So people either don't want to start, or they don't last very long anyways. So holding back and being secretive is completely pointless. The art itself, and the demands of training, are enough to drive most people away. 



> The other aspect is....isn't the best part of training, being in class? Forming new friendships with people you never would have met otherwise, watching your instructor's face smile and glow as you pull new material together, the bonds you form with other people...whether its the mentor that helped you through a personal struggle, or your buddies that joined you for a pizza. What ever the experiences were, would you trade them for anything? I know I wouldn't.


 
absolutely, bullseye


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## dancingalone

Flying Crane said:


> Good points you make, and I think that if a truly thorough and exhaustive, core dump instructional video were made, it would be the even more rare individual who would be willing to dig into it and give it the effort and dedication that it would take to learn in this way.  I suspect that most people would find it boring.  Everybody wants to be entertained.  Who would want to sit thru two hours of instructional video on the reverse punch?  And go over it over and over to really understand it?  And of these rare people, it would be an even more rare person who could actually self-critique effectively and recognize his own mistakes and truly fix them.
> 
> I would be really surprised if that magic combination ever came together.
> 
> Everybody wants to believe that they are that exceptional person.  But no, they are not.



I generally agree.  But there are other reasons to make exhaustive "instructional" videos other than an attempt to teach students at a distance.  I would be interested in documenting the Goju-ryu karate and kobudo systems I study and teach.  They would be reference material for my dojo students and a few clips could be released here and there on the internet if only to help explain what authentic Okinawan karate looks like.  

The trick is to do it correctly.  None of the DVDs I have viewed to date in any system really do it right in my opinion.  They're all bound by filming budgets and a need to recoup the initial investment and even make a profit.  So the content tends to be sparse even if the production values can be quite good if done by a professional publisher like Turtle Press.  I WOULD want to spend hours on each topic with multiple front, back, side, and birdseye views of technique described.

By the way, I read over on KenpoTalk that someone in the Tracy Kenpo org recently released a series of "Instructor" level DVDs.  Apparently, the yellow belt material alone is covered in 3 DVDs which seems like a step in the right direction.  Have you seen these, Flying Crane?


----------



## Flying Crane

dancingalone said:


> I generally agree. But there are other reasons to make exhaustive "instructional" videos other than an attempt to teach students at a distance. I would be interested in documenting the Goju-ryu karate and kobudo systems I study and teach. They would be reference material for my dojo students and a few clips could be released here and there on the internet if only to help explain what authentic Okinawan karate looks like.


 
Now this, I would have not problem with.  Documentation of they system meant primarily as a reference for those within the system who already have a teacher, makes a lot of sense.  It's that whole idea of, Hey, come and learn my system thru video instruction! that I just can't get behind.



> By the way, I read over on KenpoTalk that someone in the Tracy Kenpo org recently released a series of "Instructor" level DVDs. Apparently, the yellow belt material alone is covered in 3 DVDs which seems like a step in the right direction. Have you seen these, Flying Crane?


 
I am aware of these, but I have not seen them.  I haven't felt a need to have them in my collection, even tho I'm a Tracy Kenpo guy myself.  I'm lucky in that I train with one of the most senior instructors in the Tracy lineage, under Al.  He's been around for a very long time and is one of the leaders in our lineage.  Given that, I don't feel the need to look at other's videos for references to our techs and system.

Maybe someday I'll feel differently, but at this time I just don't feel the need to have them.  I wouldn't object to an opportunity to view them and see how complete they are, but I don't feel like paying to own them.


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## East Winds

After over 20 years training (and teaching) Taijiquan, my teacher can still make me realise that I am not doing some of the basics (whatever they are) correctly!!!! What chance would I have trying to learn from video!!!!!!!

Very best wishes


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## Golden Harvest

Greeting Deepak,

Yes you can learn from a DVD.  It depends on the learner's prior background and the teaching quality of the DVD.  Like you, many of us are not fortunate enough to have access to a quality Tai Chi school or quality instruction.  I have been disappointed with too many poor instruction out there.  Thanks to this forum and YouTube, we can be informed.  As for the choice of DVD - Yang Zheng Duo (YZD) versus Yang Jwing-Ming (YJM)- it's a tough call.  I am not aware of any DVD by YZD that are in english.  The ones that I own have either english subtitles or poorly translated english.  Not much in terms of teaching quality.  On the other, YJM's DVD on the Yang Tai Chi Form has great teaching quality and if one practice diligently, it may be possible for one to learn the form.  You'll have to put up with his commericials for his other DVDs, books, CD, and other merchandise.  Besides the DVDs from YZD and YMJ, I suggest looking into the DVDs by YZD's grandson, Yang Jun.  His DVDs are in English and he does an excellent teaching job.  Very professional and not as commercialize as YJM. Another reason I favor Yang Jun is that you will be learning the Yang Tai Chi directly from the Yang Tai Chi founder's family.  His DVDs are not not cheap but they are worth it in my opinon.  If interested, you can check them out at the following website:

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/products/

Sorry I can't offer any help on the Chen style Tai Chi.  

Good luck on your Tai Chi quest.


----------



## Haakon

dancingalone said:


> I generally agree.  But there are other reasons to make exhaustive "instructional" videos other than an attempt to teach students at a distance.  I would be interested in documenting the Goju-ryu karate and kobudo systems I study and teach.  They would be reference material for my dojo students and a few clips could be released here and there on the internet if only to help explain what authentic Okinawan karate looks like.



My Aikido instructor (is he still my instructor if I haven't trained with him for years?) has made several DVDs for that reason. He wants to document Aikido as he teaches it and believes it should be done, and as a supplement for his students, not to get people around the world to do "his" Aikido.

My Hapkido instructor has DVDs as well, but doesn't sell them online, mail order etc, they are reference material for his students. I plan on buying it whenever they can get a new supply burned, I figure it will be good reference material to view at home and during slow times at work. 

The biggest problem I see with learning from a video, and it's a big problem, is there is no one there to correct any mistakes the person is making. Take something fairly simple like a reverse punch. You see it on the video, looks easy, try it, feels Ok so you're good, right? But there is no one there to say your punch wasn't to the center line, your stance was too narrow, your back leg was bent, back foot was turned out and should be parallel with the front foot, you didn't snap your hips at quite the correct time....and the 1,000 other things a live, in person, instructor would (or should) be telling you.


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## Brian R. VanCise

This is a post on Don Roley's blog related to utilizing video tapes/dvd's for training.  While Bujinkan specific it certainly applies across the board and makes for some excellent reading:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=423858376&blogId=523229250


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## Haakon

That was a very good article on video training Brian, it might shatter a few dreams from people but seems spot on to me.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Yes a few dreams taken away but hopefully they will realize that they need to have a live, breathing instructor and someone to correct their mistakes and constantly push them to improve!


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## jks9199

Doing a search for something recently, I tripped over a post by Ben Cole that addressed the importance of a living, breathing instructor.  To paraphrase it, he described how one of his instructors corrected him as he worked a particular move, telling Ben to put his foot HERE, not THERE.  The correction was repeated, and somewhere along the way, Ben asked "why?"  The instructor told him, essentially, "because that's where your foot has to be to do this."   In time, Ben came to realize the why -- which amounted to because that's the right place for the foot.  That's not a correction you're going to get from a video tape.  And it's not a lesson you'll learn without the teacher being there to notice and correct it.  (Whether the student will listen or the teacher will bother is a different discussion.)


----------



## jks9199

In fact -- HERE is the post by Ben Cole.  I've copied the relevant portion; it's rather lengthy and much of it is off topic here.



> *I would like to wrap up with the following  anecdote from training at Nagato Dojo in Japan.*
> 
> One day during training, Nagato-sensei said to  me, &#8220;Ben. Your foot is in the wrong place. Move it over there.&#8221;
> 
> I slid my foot. &#8220;Here?&#8221; I asked.
> 
> &#8220;No. There.&#8221; Nagato answered.
> 
> I moved my foot the place Nagato pointed, then  asked, &#8220;Why here?&#8221;
> Nagato answered, &#8220;Because that&#8217;s where your foot  should be.&#8221;
> I nodded and continued training.
> 
> About two months later, Nagato-sensei again told  me to move my foot to a different location. I did, and then I (dumbly)  asked, &#8220;Why?&#8221; again.
> Nagato-sensei again said, &#8220;Because that&#8217;s where  your foot should be.&#8221;
> 
> Over time, I came to understand that was where  my foot should be, and I didn&#8217;t need to ask why.


----------



## chenlihong

Dear members,
Thank you all for responding. There were several insightful replies and I'm sure many others will be benefited.
I was hell bent on learning 'anyhow' and some of the member's comments here did not discourage me enough. So i bought several videos of taiji and xingyiquan. Some of them were very informative, others average.
After a few weeks of follwing instructions from videos, I began to understand it was going nowhere, and it would never go anywhere. I was giving it 3-4 hours a day. I improved my balance. My legs certainly became a LOT stronger and my stances firm. But after that,it was depressing. Taiji wasn't any different from an elegant dance, and xingyi beng quan had no more power than my usual punches. There is noone to 'correct' my posture. I didn't expect to achieve anything in 3 months. But there was a feeling that its all hopeless. No matter how hard I trained, I would not go beyond a certain limit, and the limit in question doesn't even cover basics.I can now stand in san ti shi for 20 minutes each side, knowing that in most likelihood I am doing it wrong.
Nonetheless, there was a lot of valuable information in videos of yang zheng duo and _Di_ Guoyong. It can help you, but it can't teach. Not to beginners atleast.
I've finally decided to move to Mumbai to learn from a sifu who had taught me before for a few months. He teaches Daoqiquan (Li family system). A rare artist, teaches a very few (selected) people, and doesn't charge a penny. 
Thank you all again for comments. Good luck with training
Deepak


----------



## Flying Crane

chenlihong said:


> Dear members,
> Thank you all for responding. There were several insightful replies and I'm sure many others will be benefited.
> I was hell bent on learning 'anyhow' and some of the member's comments here did not discourage me enough. So i bought several videos of taiji and xingyiquan. Some of them were very informative, others average.
> After a few weeks of follwing instructions from videos, I began to understand it was going nowhere, and it would never go anywhere. I was giving it 3-4 hours a day. I improved my balance. My legs certainly became a LOT stronger and my stances firm. But after that,it was depressing. Taiji wasn't any different from an elegant dance, and xingyi beng quan had no more power than my usual punches. There is noone to 'correct' my posture. I didn't expect to achieve anything in 3 months. But there was a feeling that its all hopeless. No matter how hard I trained, I would not go beyond a certain limit, and the limit in question doesn't even cover basics.I can now stand in san ti shi for 20 minutes each side, knowing that in most likelihood I am doing it wrong.
> Nonetheless, there was a lot of valuable information in videos of yang zheng duo and _Di_ Guoyong. It can help you, but it can't teach. Not to beginners atleast.
> I've finally decided to move to Mumbai to learn from a sifu who had taught me before for a few months. He teaches Daoqiquan (Li family system). A rare artist, teaches a very few (selected) people, and doesn't charge a penny.
> Thank you all again for comments. Good luck with training
> Deepak



Thank you for coming back and giving us this update.  I have a tremendous amount of respect for your honesty.  Best of luck to you.


----------



## mograph

Yes, thanks for getting back to us and for being honest. 

Please give us updates on your progress when you get a chance.


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## coffeerox

Do It Yourself (anything) is very difficult.  Anywhere you go to ask how to do something yourself, you will be met with people who will tell you no, every time, any place.

It's not impossible.  I started my Wing Chun journey about a year, to a year and a half ago.  Form-wise, it's taken me that long to learn how the form should be practiced and why.  (btw, my progress is Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu) The "why" is easy.  A good quality instructor that understands how to teach on video will show you why, and go through common mistakes, etc.  

The "how" is difficult.  It takes a lot of research and input from various sources.  There are subtleties within the form that may be transmitted on video but difficult to grasp even if it's explained.  Practicing it is also difficult if you do not have all the information.  This is where the difference between quality and poor instruction comes into play.  A good quality video instructor needs to be very in-depth and easily understood.

To do anything yourself, you need to learn how to learn.  You gotta be able to pick up on stuff and be able to absorb and put this knowledge into practice.  How else do you learn something?  You need a clear lesson plan.  Lesson plans will have to be custom built.  You need to research to find out where to start, the contents of what is being taught and then buying the materials (DVD in this case)

Like I said, not impossible.  Bruce Lee did it through manuals if you want to compare non-personal instruction sources.  Let me explain to you why it worked for Bruce.  Bruce not only learned from manuals and videos, but he took this knowledge and put it into practice.  He stress tested what worked/didn't and what fit into his style.  I would say that it's a necessity to have training partners so that you are applying what has been taught to you in the videos.  Your partner has to try and resist so that you know if your technique is failing or succeeding.  

If you do not have a training partner, things will look pretty grim.  I've personally been through this.  You HAVE to have a training partner.  You COULD develop an offense based on your styles attacks by yourself, but if you do not have the first blow or the advantage, then your defense will fail, your offense will fail.  You can try to apply the concepts but you will learn the hard way.

Anyways I've been rambling on for too long.  Personally, having been on this journey, I don't think I can recommend doing it yourself.  Having done it myself, I'm at a point where I can and know how to do it but I can't teach anybody this process.  It's your own self-journey.


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## yardmeat

I know that nothing has been posted in this thread for a while, but I was surprised to see that no one brought up Yang Lunchan.  According to Yang style tradition, Yang first started learning Tai Chi by spying on sessions through a hole in the wall and mimicking what he saw.  I don't know about Chen style, but it would be a little hypocritical for a Yang style practitioner to tell you that you can't learn Tai Chi through video.

I don't know much about Qigong.  I used to do breathing exercises and I "invented" one of my own that I practiced for about half an hour a day.  When I went to a Qigong teacher in my area, he asked what exercises I was already doing, and I explained the breathing exercise that I had come up with.  He gave me a worried look, told me what I was doing was embryonic breathing, and that if I continued the chi would cause my blood pressure would shoot through the roof.  I have a blood pressure cuff and had been monitoring it ever since I started and had noticed a dramatic _drop_ in my blood pressure since I had started embryonic breathing.  I told him I intended to continue unless I saw signs of health trouble.  He told me that my blood pressure monitor must be off and that, if I planned to continue, I was no longer welcome as his student.  My physician confirmed I was right about my blood pressure, and I stopped seeing the teacher.

An in-person teacher is preferable to videos, but when there is no teacher available (or at least no qualified teacher), a video from a good teacher could be beneficial.  Don't go around calling yourself a master just because you've finished a video series, but don't buy it when people tell you that your hours of practice are all for nothing.


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## oaktree

> I know that nothing has been posted in this thread for a while, but I was surprised to see that no one brought up Yang Lunchan. According to Yang style tradition, Yang first started learning Tai Chi by spying on sessions through a hole in the wall and mimicking what he saw


Ah! But did Yang Lu chan learn from watching videos? 

I do wonder how true this story is. I also wonder how long he was watching 
them I would think if he correcting the other students forms as some accounts say then either:
1.Yang Lu Chan is a genius gifted martial art prodigy 

2. He watched for many many  years and was able to correct people just starting out like beginners (maybe he corrected them to a degree but still not 100% accurate. 
Might have been if he knew some of the form and he was *trying *to correct *beginners* maybe Chen Chang Xiang then decided to accept him. 

3. He was actually training with someone in Chen village either Chen Chang Xiang or another Chen villager and we don't know. Alot of it is speculation on my part perhaps someone with a better understanding of history can shed some light.





> I don't know about Chen style, but it would be a little hypocritical for a Yang style practitioner to tell you that you can't learn Tai Chi through video.


 
Entirely from a video? well...most martial artist in multiple styles agree
 teaching yourself thru videos without a teacher to guide you doesn't seem to work very well. I can go thru reasons why but I think the last couple of pages have said more than enough about it.




> I don't know much about Qigong. I used to do breathing exercises and I "invented" one of my own that I practiced for about half an hour a day.


I don't know much about Qigong either. 
You invented a Qigong form? That's great!!!




> When I went to a Qigong teacher in my area, he asked what exercises I was already doing, and I explained the breathing exercise that I had come up with. He gave me a worried look, told me what I was doing was embryonic breathing


 Heh, who needs a Qigong teacher when you can make your own up. Embryonic breathing?! My goodness!! I am working on translating a Taoist work on that subject or was it a different subject.....

Was it really Embryonic breathing because that would involve you knowing some Qigong seeing as its um...Pretty high level Qigong too.....



> told me what I was doing was embryonic breathing, and that if I continued the chi would cause my blood pressure would shoot through the roof.


 He meant(or should have meant) your Shen would shoot thru the roof. 

According to the writings the Shen becomes Ling Shen &#28789;&#31070; when doing embryotic breathing *correctly* and if you are not refining Jing into Qi and Qi into Shen and so on and so on, 
then no you are not doing embyro breathing if you are not following the correct theory of it. It is nearly impossible to grasp with out a teacher and further more, even with a teacher it is said something like 1 out of a 1,000 gets it.



> I have a blood pressure cuff and had been monitoring it ever since I started and had noticed a dramatic _drop_ in my blood pressure since I had started embryonic breathing.


I have not heard of anyone who does embryonic breathing *correctly* have high blood pressure from it.

sDrop in blood pressure is normal considering that the breathing done is very slow, deep and relaxed. So I am not surprised.



> I intended to continue unless I saw signs of health trouble. He told me that my blood pressure monitor must be off and that, if I planned to continue, I was no longer welcome as his student.


 
Ya its kinda of disrespectful to tell your teacher "hey I know more than you do with the Qigong I created, and despite how ever many years you have and such I am going to ignore you" I personally would tell you there is the door too. 



> An in-person teacher is preferable to videos, but when there is no teacher available (or at least no qualified teacher), a video from a good teacher could be beneficial. Don't go around calling yourself a master just because you've finished a video series, but don't buy it when people tell you that your hours of practice are all for nothing.


 
I want to train in a certain style its not here in Sesame street so I could learn from videos and deluded myself into thinking I know it or wait work hard and go to the source and learn it correctly.

I learned that there is an easy way to do things and the right way to do things which way you choose speaks volumes about who you are.


----------



## jks9199

yardmeat said:


> I know that nothing has been posted in this thread for a while, but I was surprised to see that no one brought up Yang Lunchan.  According to Yang style tradition, Yang first started learning Tai Chi by spying on sessions through a hole in the wall and mimicking what he saw.  I don't know about Chen style, but it would be a little hypocritical for a Yang style practitioner to tell you that you can't learn Tai Chi through video.



There's a difference between watching an ongoing class and watching a video.  If you watch an ongoing class, you'll see the same lessons presented different ways to different people.  The teacher will recognize mistakes, and correct them, and you may find them in your own training.  The class is not static.  A video is.  Once recorded, that's how it is.  There's no adjustment or chance to see someone corrected and recognize your own errors. 

At least the approaches where you're regularly communicating with a teacher, and swapping videos have a chance to have your errors caught and corrected.  I'm not saying merely sending a testing video, I'm talking actual regular trading or at least sending of videos...  You're still going to be behind the curve because you'll still stand a good chance of embedding poor techniques and errors in your training...


----------



## ggg214

if you are training CMA, especially learning from a chinese teacher's video, i can certainly tell you that you will learn nothing.it's a waste of time.
because i know most of them will never tell you the key parts of the style.


----------



## ggg214

yardmeat said:


> I know that nothing has been posted in this thread for a while, but I was surprised to see that no one brought up Yang Lunchan. According to Yang style tradition, Yang first started learning Tai Chi by spying on sessions through a hole in the wall and mimicking what he saw. I don't know about Chen style, but it would be a little hypocritical for a Yang style practitioner to tell you that you can't learn Tai Chi through video.


 
do you know later yang became the disciple of CHEN?


----------



## yardmeat

oaktree said:


> Ah! But did Yang Lu chan learn from watching videos?


No, and as others have pointed out, watching a class is more beneficial than watching a video. I'll admit that freely. And let me reiterate that a teacher is preferable to a video. If there is a teacher in your area, I beg you, go to the teacher. A week with a teacher is probably better than a year of videos. But if there are no teachers in your area, I fully believe you can learn the basics from videos. Will you master the long form? No, of course not. Can you get pretty good at parting the horse's mane? You betcha.





> I do wonder how true this story is. I also wonder how long he was watching
> them I would think if he correcting the other students forms as some accounts say then either:
> 1.Yang Lu Chan is a genius gifted martial art prodigy


No question about that.





> 2. He watched for many many years and was able to correct people just starting out like beginners (maybe he corrected them to a degree but still not 100% accurate.
> Might have been if he knew some of the form and he was *trying *to correct *beginners* maybe Chen Chang Xiang then decided to accept him.


According to the story--and, by all means, take it with a grain of salt, I always encourage skepticism--he became better than any student in the class just by watching and mimicking. I'm not suggesting you can do the same by watching videos, but I think it is way out of bounds to claim, as others seem to be claiming, that you can't learn anything about CMA of value from videos.


> 3. He was actually training with someone in Chen village either Chen Chang Xiang or another Chen villager and we don't know. Alot of it is speculation on my part perhaps someone with a better understanding of history can shed some light.


I'm fine with speculation about this. Thanks for the food for thought.


> Entirely from a video? well...most martial artist in multiple styles agree
> teaching yourself thru videos without a teacher to guide you doesn't seem to work very well. I can go thru reasons why but I think the last couple of pages have said more than enough about it.


I understand the arguments. And let me repeat: I don't think you are going to become a martial arts master from watching videos. Anyone who has been in a class, even one, has a leg up on you. But I just don't buy that you can't learn anything of value from these videos. I have some western boxing videos. Did I become an awesome boxer by watching them? No, but I learned some moves I didn't know before and, though practice, was better off than I was before I watched the videos. I realize CMA are more involved, but I'm certain you can at least learn a few stances and some moves. Again, having a teacher is better, but if a teacher isn't an option, by all means, watch some videos.





> I don't know much about Qigong either.
> You invented a Qigong form? That's great!!!


Oh nononononono, all I'm claiming to have invented is a breathing exercise, that's it. A purely physical exercise I use to relax. And I put invented in quotes deliberately. I'm sure thousands of other people have stumbled upon the exercise and I'm sure thousands of other people have perfected it more than I have. I was doing abdominal breathing when I realized that I really like the pause between breaths, when you get this kind of fuzzy feeling and your breath almost seems to be caught in your nose. Inhalation and exhalation kind of become one. There is some movement there, but not enough to even move a feather. I'm still breathing, but it becomes entirely effortless and still, almost like I'm breathing through my skin. I am inhaling and I am exhaling, but it happens over the course of several minutes. I love it.





> Heh, who needs a Qigong teacher when you can make your own up. Embryonic breathing?! My goodness!! I am working on translating a Taoist work on that subject or was it a different subject.....
> 
> 
> 
> Was it really Embryonic breathing because that would involve you knowing some Qigong seeing as its um...Pretty high level Qigong too.....


Again, let me repeat: I know nothing about Qigong. This story wasn't meant to illustrate that you don't need a teacher, it was meant to illustrate that some teachers aren't that great. In this case, my teacher warned me that my exercise was dangerous and, when faced with empirical evidence that he was wrong, chose to believe that he knew more about my blood pressure than my physician or an actual monitor.
The breathing exercise I do isn't Qigong. This teacher called it embryonic breathing, but all I'm calling it is a breathing exercise. There is no philosophy behind it except that it is good for my meditation. I no longer believe in Qi or Shen or Jing in any literal sense and I don't do anything to intentionally cultivate them.





> He meant(or should have meant) your Shen would shoot thru the roof.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the writings the Shen becomes Ling Shen &#28789;&#31070; when doing embryotic breathing _*correctly*_ and if you are not refining Jing into Qi and Qi into Shen and so on and so on,
> then no you are not doing embyro breathing if you are not following the correct theory of it.


Then I'm not doing embryonic breathing. The only theory behind what I do is that it is a physical exercise that helps me relax. Again, the teacher was the one who called in embryonic breathing and told me it was dangerous.





> It is nearly impossible to grasp with out a teacher and further more, even with a teacher it is said something like 1 out of a 1,000 gets it.


Maybe so. Like I said, I know nothing about Qigong.





> I have not heard of anyone who does embryonic breathing _*correctly*_ have high blood pressure from it.


Neither have I 





> Drop in blood pressure is normal considering that the breathing done is very slow, deep and relaxed. So I am not surprised.


Bingo.





> Ya its kinda of disrespectful to tell your teacher "hey I know more than you do with the Qigong I created, and despite how ever many years you have and such I am going to ignore you" I personally would tell you there is the door too.


That isn't actually what happened. What happened was he told me that my exercise had a very specific dangerous side effect and I already had empirical evidence that he was wrong. I never claimed to know more about Qigong than he does, but my doctor and my blood pressure cuff know more about my blood pressure than he does. And you have pointed out errors in what he said above, so obviously we are in agreement that this guy was just dead wrong.





> I want to train in a certain style its not here in Sesame street so I could learn from videos and deluded myself into thinking I know it or wait work hard and go to the source and learn it correctly.


Getting advice from a video and working hard are not mutually exclusive. That said, I admire your discipline and I wish you the best of luck.





> I learned that there is an easy way to do things and the right way to do things which way you choose speaks volumes about who you are.


I agree, but I think we can also agree that trying to learn from a video isn't easy at all. The easy way and the right way are about your effort, not your teaching medium.



ggg214 said:


> do you know later yang became the disciple of CHEN?


Yep, but before Chen allowed him to be a disciple (according to tradition), he learned by watching and mimicking.


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## jonbey

The short answer is - no.

You can get good insights into a style, or use videos to revise what you have already learnt, but you cannot learn. No more than you can learn effectively from a book. Much of martial arts, especially internal martial arts, is about feeling and reacting. A DVD does not provide that.


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## fyn5000

Let me say that you can learn something from books, articles, and videos.  But what you learn should be used as a supplement to what you learn from a teacher.  Like what the others have said, you miss out on the principles and mechanics of the art when you try to learn on your own.  I learned this from experience when a group of us used a video (and some books) to learn the Ch'eng Man-Ching 37 Postures form.  In 6 months we learned a "form", but we were merely moving around waving our arms in the air.  When the group started learning from a teacher, we started over from the beginning.

And as important as it is to learn from a teacher, you need to learn from a good teacher.  A bad teacher, or merely one lacking in knowledge and skill, can lead you nowhere fast.

Fyn


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## Flying Crane

I'm always amazed when people want to keep coming back to this and continue to argue the merits and possibilities of video instruction.

If Yardmeat wants to continue the fantasy, it's no sweat off my back.

Chenlihong, the one who started this thread, has already come back and shared his experience with his attempts at video instruction:  dead end.  I'm happy that he learned something from the experiment and that he came back here to share it with the rest of us.  It bears out what most of us have been saying for a long time.

For those others who want to keep pretending, well go ahead.  It does add to the comic relief around here.


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## oaktree

Yardmeat,
Rather then give lengthy answers back to you it is my opinion nothing fruitful with come about trying to explain things to you.

Good luck with your training.


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## Flying Crane

oaktree said:


> Yardmeat,
> Rather then give lengthy answers back to you it is my opinion nothing fruitful with come about trying to explain things to you.
> 
> Good luck with your training.


 
He could go back and read thru the thread.  I think everything that needs to be said already has been said.


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## Xue Sheng

Yardmeat

For crying out loud if you are going to use Yang Luchan to justify idiocy and take a poke at yang style at least use the story right.

1) Yang Luchan Trained Changquan (long Fist) before ever going to train with Chen Changxing. And Yang Luchan was allegedly not to bad a Changquan and he had trained with a real live sifu. And as much as many Taiji people hate to admit it Taiji is pretty much a changquan but different.

2) He went to train with Chen Changxing however there is one heck of a lot of controversy as to what Yang Luchan was actually taught and how he was taught.

Yang Luchan is listed as a student of Chen Changxing but the Chen family so that means he was thought of as a student by Chen Changxing.

Did he learn by looking through the fence, possibly but that is figuratively speaking not literally. He was possibly being taught by Chen bit nothing of depth. HE allegedly found where Chen taught the other members of his family and watched the class. HE used this to build upon what he had already been taught by Chen or he used this to build on his Changquan. 

The alleged fight that he allegedly had that got him to be accepted as a student of Chen Changxing may or may not have happened and it is not known, if the fight occurred, is he won by using Chen family Taijiquan (by the way it was not called taijiquan then, more likely Chen Paoqui) or if he won using the long fist he knew with Chen bits thrown in. Either way it allegedly impressed Chen Changxing enough to take him as a student&#8230; this is of course if it ever happened at all.

Can you learn form a video? Yes if you are INCREDIBLY talented and I have only meant 2 in 30 years of MA that were talented enough and they both had backgrounds in MA. The average person, myself included, could at best get something that looked similar but had no power and was missing one heck of a lot of the REALLY important hard to see small stuff.

You got very good and rather correct answers, you may have not liked them but the fact is they are right and your not.

If you want to learn form a video go right ahead, frankly I don&#8217;t care. Now quit trying to convince people that know better and go watch taiji TV.


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## AidanO

Honestly, I'm in two minds about the ability to learn from video/online.

Up until about a week or two ago I would quite have happily said it was impossible to do anything beyond a mimicry of the style. Then I found a website with an ENORMOUS amount of instructional videos. Short 5 minute clips on individual things. I personally am only using it as a reference point for some things I am learning from my Sifu in person.

However, I could easily see someone learning from these. Because differently to most videos, the instructor constantly advises to have a partner to test things on (like a friend in a class learning together) and you can film yourself doing the practice, with a partner again so he can see how you react to another person and preferably from multiple angles. Then he films an individual response showing you where you're going wrong and how to correct it.

I've also known a person to learn Michuan via distance, a similar method for a while, then arranging to pay for their instructor to fly out and give seminars. She's worked very very hard and is making progress. Of course the seminars have helped.

I will agree, there is NO way you will learn martial arts from scratch without some form of professional feedback. Unless you're a freak, or you've had prior instruction and are learning a related system. Can I see someone who has mastered Chen style learning Yang by video? Yes I can. And if they were taught properly originally, they'll probably do it better than most of the Yang guys out there. (Since the average is so low, not dissing those people who really have mastered it, but Yang is normally the 'Health Tai Chi')

But for the general Average Joe with no experience learning from a video? Get somebody to teach you, even by distance and pay to go to seminars every so often.


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## wushuguy

Xue Sheng said:


> Now quit trying to convince people that know better and go watch taiji TV.



Do they have that channel in NYC? I'm always up for good entertainment  But I think everyone will agree that they gain more from a live concert than a recorded session.... Real people is for living in the now. TV is for living a dream.


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## yardmeat

AidanO said:


> Honestly, I'm in two minds about the ability to learn from video/online.
> 
> Up until about a week or two ago I would quite have happily said it was impossible to do anything beyond a mimicry of the style. Then I found a website with an ENORMOUS amount of instructional videos. Short 5 minute clips on individual things. I personally am only using it as a reference point for some things I am learning from my Sifu in person.
> 
> However, I could easily see someone learning from these. Because differently to most videos, the instructor constantly advises to have a partner to test things on (like a friend in a class learning together) and you can film yourself doing the practice, with a partner again so he can see how you react to another person and preferably from multiple angles. Then he films an individual response showing you where you're going wrong and how to correct it.
> 
> I've also known a person to learn Michuan via distance, a similar method for a while, then arranging to pay for their instructor to fly out and give seminars. She's worked very very hard and is making progress. Of course the seminars have helped.
> 
> I will agree, there is NO way you will learn martial arts from scratch without some form of professional feedback. Unless you're a freak, or you've had prior instruction and are learning a related system. Can I see someone who has mastered Chen style learning Yang by video? Yes I can. And if they were taught properly originally, they'll probably do it better than most of the Yang guys out there. (Since the average is so low, not dissing those people who really have mastered it, but Yang is normally the 'Health Tai Chi')
> 
> But for the general Average Joe with no experience learning from a video? Get somebody to teach you, even by distance and pay to go to seminars every so often.


This is probably the best advice I've seen in this thread so far. I'd really like to learn Yang style, but I haven't had any luck finding a teacher in my area. There are some a couple of hours away. I can't make that trip every week, but maybe I can work out something once a month. There is a teacher in Austin who has video instruction on Youtube to supplement his classes; I'm thinking about seeing if we can set up some sort of video correspondence and a monthly in-person meeting.


			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> You got very good and rather correct answers, you may have not liked them but the fact is they are right and your not.
> 
> If you want to learn form a video go right ahead, frankly I dont care. Now quit trying to convince people that know better and go watch taiji TV


The only position I am disagreeing with here is that video instruction is absolutely useless. I don't have the option of seeing a teacher a couple of times a week. I freely acknowledge that it would be better if I did. I am considering trying to get a few lessons out of town and using videos between other visits.



If I decide to go watch taiji TV I'll be sure to start with the videos that you and others on this thread have suggested.


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## Xue Sheng

yardmeat said:


> The only position I am disagreeing with here is that video instruction is absolutely useless. I don't have the option of seeing a teacher a couple of times a week. I freely acknowledge that it would be better if I did. I am considering trying to get a few lessons out of town and using videos between other visits.
> 
> If I decide to go watch taiji TV I'll be sure to start with the videos that you and others on this thread have suggested.


 
At best video training is a supplement for training with a real sifu. You will miss much that is taiji by focusing on video learning.

And next time you want to justify a point using Yang Luchan you might want to get the facts straight...or at least as close as it possible.
 
And you might want to look at post number 3


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## yardmeat

Xue Sheng said:


> At best video training is a supplement for training with a real sifu. You will miss much that is taiji by focusing on video learning.


I've stated this basic point a couple of times now myself, which is why I mentioned training with a real sifu when I can.  I have not been able to find any in my local area, but there are some a couple of hours away.





> And next time you want to justify a point using Yang Luchan you might want to get the facts straight...or at least as close as it possible.


The only point I made is that, according to Yang tradition, he originally learned Tai Chi by watching.  You "corrected" claims that I never made.  I never stated that he had no prior martial arts experience or that the story should be accepted as gospel without any skepticism.
 




> And you might want to look at post number 3


That was the post I had in mind when I said that, if I do end up having to rely partially on videos, I would start with the ones that you and others suggested.


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