# Boxing as a Martial Art



## KPM

Hi Guys!

Does anyone here train their Boxing as a martial art? If so, what kind of things do you work on apart from the usual sport-related training?


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## Buka

I haven't trained specifically in boxing for years, but I boxed for many years and tend to use my hands more from boxing than from Karate (depending) but, at heart, I'm a Karateka....who boxes a lot.

If I understand your question - I utilize footwork, in-fighting, and uppercutting from boxing for self defense purposes. I'd like to say I utilize slipping and bobbing - but, unfortunately, I tend to leave them in the gym when you know what hits the fan. Stress, I guess.


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## drop bear

I train in boxing as part of my mma.  It is a good tool to train scenarios.

for example i have done it in restraints training where you throw gloves on a guy and then get him.

it is a good scenario tool.


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## Transk53

When boxing, like training or having a session with a mate (which I don't do to much anymore due to be being old) but I favoured the left jab, light or heavy, and the straight or right cross. Slipping not so much, but bobbing yeah. The rest just fits in with what I have dubbed fluid self defense.


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## drop bear

Buka said:


> I haven't trained specifically in boxing for years, but I boxed for many years and tend to use my hands more from boxing than from Karate (depending) but, at heart, I'm a Karateka....who boxes a lot.
> 
> If I understand your question - I utilize footwork, in-fighting, and uppercutting from boxing for self defense purposes. I'd like to say I utilize slipping and bobbing - but, unfortunately, I tend to leave them in the gym when you know what hits the fan. Stress, I guess.



depends how you fight. If you are in the pocket trying to street in elbows and stuff. You have to have pretty special timing to duck and weave.

otherwise there is an idea that boxing head movement is reactive. And a lot of it isn't. A lot is prearranged for when they should punch. And again because the timing is incredibly hard.


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## drop bear

Otherwise ten second rounds work quite well. You can start with one person trying to get the sucker punch in and then go ten seconds.

i wouldn't go much longer because if you get on the wrong side of a flurry in this instance you don't want that to go longer than about ten seconds.

there are also fun competitions for guys to do minute rounds that are designed for people with limited boxing to try their ha d.


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## Buka

drop bear said:


> depends how you fight. If you are in the pocket trying to street in elbows and stuff. You have to have pretty special timing to duck and weave.
> 
> otherwise there is an idea that boxing head movement is reactive. And a lot of it isn't. A lot is prearranged for when they should punch. And again because the timing is incredibly hard.



First four words say it all. "Depends how you fight."


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## Danny T

We use a lot of boxing within our Muay Thai. 
Take a look at Dutch Style Muay Thai, huge amount of Boxing in that style of martial art.


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## tshadowchaser

I use some boxing drills with the students and some of the pad work ( ok I guess they are drills also)


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## Mephisto

For some reason a lot of people separate boxing and wrestling from the martial arts, I consider them martial arts perhaps more so than others. I'm still new to boxing buy it teaches a lot of useful things left out in other arts. Controlling the opponent with footwork proper body movement and where to position yourself based on the opponent are important skills. When i trained hapkido and Japanese jujitsu all of that was left out. We'd train our punches, kicks, and strikes in the air, sometimes in two man sets. Than we'd put on our cheap foam dipped gear and have at it, there was minimal instruction when it came to application. I could out brawl higher belts, not the case in boxing though.


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## punisher73

Mark Hatmaker has a couple of really good dvd's out on boxing.  

One is called "The Complete Pugilist" and is about 10 hours worth of boxing.  It covers all of the punches, both legal and illegal blows, movement, and lots of drills.

The other is called "Extreme Boxing", it covers all of the illegal blows and how to incorporate it into your regular boxing.  This set covers just the illegal stuff and alot of time isn't spent on the sport side of boxing.  The previous set covers both.


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## Transk53

Mephisto said:


> For some reason a lot of people separate boxing from the martial arts.



I do and always have done.


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## Danny T

Mephisto said:


> For some reason a lot of people separate boxing and wrestling from the martial arts, I consider them martial arts perhaps more so than others. I'm still new to boxing buy it teaches a lot of useful things left out in other arts. Controlling the opponent with footwork proper body movement and where to position yourself based on the opponent are important skills. When i trained hapkido and Japanese jujitsu all of that was left out. We'd train our punches, kicks, and strikes in the air, sometimes in two man sets. Than we'd put on our cheap foam dipped gear and have at it, there was minimal instruction when it came to application. I could out brawl higher belts, not the case in boxing though.


Both are more martial art than 'Extreme Martial Arts' are; which are more gymnastics than martial art.
Boxing and Wrestling are as martial art as Judo, BJJ, and Muay Thai are.


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## Transk53

Danny T said:


> Both are more martial art than 'Extreme Martial Arts' are; which are more gymnastics than martial art.
> Boxing and Wrestling are as martial art as Judo, BJJ, and Muay Thai are.



That is some assertion there. Can I ask, why do you place boxing in that bracket? Just curious to here an opposite viewpoint. You never know, I might learn something


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## Danny T

Transk53 said:


> That is some assertion there. Can I ask, why do you place boxing in that bracket? Just curious to here an opposite viewpoint. You never know, I might learn something


In the bracket of being a martial art?
If Muay Thai and Judo as martial sports are martial arts isn't Boxing and Wrestling both also martial sports?
Both were born from practicing forms of combat without using weapons. Militaries through time and world have used both fisted fighting and wrestling as a forms of training.


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## Buka

My two cents goes like this - anything that trains fighting is a Martial Art. Wrestling and boxing sure as heck do. 

I've know my fair share of collegiate and professional athletes, "sportsman" if you will. As fit, big or fast as they might be, if they haven't trained in fighting, they have little chance.

Let's keep in mind, gentlemen, fighting is what we all do. Not what sportsman do.


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## Transk53

Danny T said:


> In the bracket of being a martial art?
> If Muay Thai and Judo as martial sports are martial arts isn't Boxing and Wrestling both also martial sports?
> Both were born from practicing forms of combat without using weapons. Militaries through time and world have used both fisted fighting and wrestling as a forms of training.



Well not really. Boxing only has set skill set in a basic context. Yeah, kick boxing can come. There is the difference for me personally. Boxing two limbs, kick boxing all limbs. To me that is a martial art, symmetry. Boxing, pure fisty cuffs. But a deadly one at that, but still limited in a wider context. Boxing does not tap into any enhancements. That is why I suspect have an ever ready eye on Muay Thia.


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## Danny T

Transk53 said:


> Well not really. Boxing only has set skill set in a basic context. Yeah, kick boxing can come. There is the difference for me personally. Boxing two limbs, kick boxing all limbs. To me that is a martial art, symmetry. Boxing, pure fisty cuffs. But a deadly one at that, but still limited in a wider context. Boxing does not tap into any enhancements. That is why I suspect have an ever ready eye on Muay Thia.



Kyudo wouldn’t be a martial art by that definition?
Laijutsu?
Iaido?
How about Sikaran a kicking only FMA?


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## Mephisto

Transk53 said:


> Well not really. Boxing only has set skill set in a basic context. Yeah, kick boxing can come. There is the difference for me personally. Boxing two limbs, kick boxing all limbs. To me that is a martial art, symmetry. Boxing, pure fisty cuffs. But a deadly one at that, but still limited in a wider context. Boxing does not tap into any enhancements. That is why I suspect have an ever ready eye on Muay Thia.


Boxing offers one of  the most technical   approaches to punching in all of martial arts, yes it's highly specialized but it's still an art. If some one else had a better approach to punching I'm sure they'd be handing boxers their lunch. Boxing is both martial (of war) hence punching people in the face and an art. The art comes from the different approaches to boxing, the technical puncher/boxer, the brawler, the long distance fighter, the Philly shell ect are all different expressions of the same art.There are plenty of highly specialized systems out there and no one seems to see their specialization as a reason to not consider them an ma. I'd be more likely to argue that boxing is more of an ma than the systems that put the artistic before the martial. Aikido is guided by a philosophy that frowns upon war and things martial, it's more artistic than martial. Same for tai chi as its largely practiced for health benefit rather than fighting ability. However, both have quite martial applications. If a system is both martial and an art than the label martial art is applicapable. In curious why one would argue otherwise.


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## Transk53

Ah okay, no worries. I wouldn't argue against the pair on that. My simplistic view does not fit then really!


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## Mephisto

Transk53 said:


> Ah okay, no worries. I wouldn't argue against the pair on that. My simplistic view does not fit then really!


I think boxing is just so commonly associated as a sport many people overlook the fact that it offers everything any other martial art has (specific technique aside). The same might be said for wrestling. We have some very solid fighting arts here in the west and often the mystique of eastern arts seems more appealing. Western Boxing has influenced many systems and it seems we may be starting to see a return to boxings less sportive roots with the emergence of dirty boxing systems, 52 blocks, and panantukan filipino boxing.


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## KPM

Thanks for the great replies guys!  I brought up this exact same discussion over at the Martial Arts Planet boxing subforum and the majority of people responding acted like I was stupid for even suggesting it!  I won't be going back there! 

I agree that Boxing is as much a "martial art" as Tai Chi or Aikido and maybe more so.   I also agree with Mephisto that we are seeing a re-emergence of western Boxing in a dedicated self-defense scenario in things like Panantukan and 52 Blocks. Back in the "old days" Boxing was known as the "science of self-defense" and boxing gyms were as common as McDojo TKD schools are today.  Some of the old boxing manuals like the one by Robert Fitzsimmons even had a self-defense applications chapter with techniques demonstrated in street clothes.

Now one could make a good argument that a modern Boxer with good control of distance and timing, good footwork, and good punching skills doesn't need anything else to take care of himself  a self-defense scenario.  But I think there are things that can enhance those skills and make them even better....ala Mark Hatmaker's approach as was suggested earlier.  And we all strive to be better, don't we?  ;-)

I also suggested on that other thread that a simple adaptation for Boxing in self-defense will involve changing the punching mechanics a bit to allow for striking without gloves and handwraps in order to avoid injuries.   Maybe even striking with the palm heel instead of a fist. You would think I had defamed a golden rule or something by some of the responses there!   Someone even went so far to say that if you were striking with an open hand instead of fist it couldn't be called "Boxing" anymore!  

Another very simple adaptation of modern Boxing used in self-defense is to shorten the arc of the hook and turn it into an elbow strike.  This happens by accident or design in the ring all the time.  On the street in may be the difference  between an unconscious attacker and a broken hand.

But if you don't train things like this pretty regularly, you won't be prepared to do them on the street.  Hence my question about training as a martial art, above and beyond training for sportive applications.  But some of the guys on that other thread didn't even get what I meant by that.  There is a different mindset involved between a martial art and sport.  I think this may be a more important distinction even that the techniques used.


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## cloud dancing

Danny-how did you hear about Mandarigma Sikharan.I met one of 5 red belts when in Philipines.decades ago.he was one of only ones left.3 were hunted down and Killed by PC's.went rogue and turned into Paid Killers. Can't even remember his name>But he''d won an SEAin title for karate also.was awesone fighter.Suprised when anyone mentions Mandarigma Skiharan.His/the master trained them hard old school.One exercise held the leg up hour or hours to strengthen kicks.then oither leg up.He worked with PI PC's   Was once sent out /Sent to hunt down 2 PC's who had supplied weapons to terrorists in his area.Kalibo Aklhan in Panay Island.My now EX-Wife was such a btch would not allow me to study with him.Would ahve been too positive and experience for me.She was set on killing me herself and did not want him to interfere. One of life's most imp decisions =choosing one's partner. Now with Thai girl{tiger}who loves to fight but refuses to train with me in tai-chi.We'll see what 2015 brings to this relationship. Light shines and darkness is gone.Lighthouse in mtns.Thailand


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## cloud dancing

Just remembered his name-Jerry Arroyo.Mandarigma Sikharan Red belt.  If anyone can find old SEAsian games books-his name is there for lightweight chamionship.  funny how memory kicks in. 
Question=why youse guys keep saying TAI-CHI IS NOT FOR FIGHTING??? Worked for me several times.and for others as well.
Just same as with all arts.Work on the basics.Chen ssu chen.rowing, standing.forms until they change into new forms. It's all about practise and I look to all of you,when ever on this forum- for the inspiration to go beyond my pains and excuses. Train and more. Any ideas how to go beyond this shaking I get after I explode and attack? always ahve to go where others will not see how my entire body, especially my hands keep shaking from the anger. Some ways, I kinda like that it happens Makes me feel human.                    Even one small candle will drive away the darkness.Lighthouse in mtns of Chiangrai,Thailand,


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## drop bear

cloud dancing said:


> Just remembered his name-Jerry Arroyo.Mandarigma Sikharan Red belt.  If anyone can find old SEAsian games books-his name is there for lightweight chamionship.  funny how memory kicks in.
> Question=why youse guys keep saying TAI-CHI IS NOT FOR FIGHTING??? Worked for me several times.and for others as well.
> Just same as with all arts.Work on the basics.Chen ssu chen.rowing, standing.forms until they change into new forms. It's all about practise and I look to all of you,when ever on this forum- for the inspiration to go beyond my pains and excuses. Train and more. Any ideas how to go beyond this shaking I get after I explode and attack? always ahve to go where others will not see how my entire body, especially my hands keep shaking from the anger. Some ways, I kinda like that it happens Makes me feel human.                    Even one small candle will drive away the darkness.Lighthouse in mtns of Chiangrai,Thailand,



sweet fizzy drinks help. Otherwise the more you are concerned about the shaking after. The worse it is.

it is not something you necessarily want to get rid of. As it helps you fight a bit.


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## Danny T

cloud dancing said:


> Danny-how did you hear about Mandarigma Sikharan.I met one of 5 red belts when in Philipines.decades ago.he was one of only ones left.3 were hunted down and Killed by PC's.went rogue and turned into Paid Killers. Can't even remember his name>But he''d won an SEAin title for karate also.was awesone fighter.Suprised when anyone mentions Mandarigma Skiharan.


I also train and instruct Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. When Pekiti was being developed as the Tortal family system the Tortal brothers researched & trained Skiharan. Today it has a strong influence in PTK.


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## Mephisto

KPM said:


> Thanks for the great replies guys!  I brought up this exact same discussion over at the Martial Arts Planet boxing subforum and the majority of people responding acted like I was stupid for even suggesting it!  I won't be going back there!
> 
> I agree that Boxing is as much a "martial art" as Tai Chi or Aikido and maybe more so.   I also agree with Mephisto that we are seeing a re-emergence of western Boxing in a dedicated self-defense scenario in things like Panantukan and 52 Blocks. Back in the "old days" Boxing was known as the "science of self-defense" and boxing gyms were as common as McDojo TKD schools are today.  Some of the old boxing manuals like the one by Robert Fitzsimmons even had a self-defense applications chapter with techniques demonstrated in street clothes.
> 
> Now one could make a good argument that a modern Boxer with good control of distance and timing, good footwork, and good punching skills doesn't need anything else to take care of himself  a self-defense scenario.  But I think there are things that can enhance those skills and make them even better....ala Mark Hatmaker's approach as was suggested earlier.  And we all strive to be better, don't we?  ;-)
> 
> I also suggested on that other thread that a simple adaptation for Boxing in self-defense will involve changing the punching mechanics a bit to allow for striking without gloves and handwraps in order to avoid injuries.   Maybe even striking with the palm heel instead of a fist. You would think I had defamed a golden rule or something by some of the responses there!   Someone even went so far to say that if you were striking with an open hand instead of fist it couldn't be called "Boxing" anymore!
> 
> Another very simple adaptation of modern Boxing used in self-defense is to shorten the arc of the hook and turn it into an elbow strike.  This happens by accident or design in the ring all the time.  On the street in may be the difference  between an unconscious attacker and a broken hand.
> 
> But if you don't train things like this pretty regularly, you won't be prepared to do them on the street.  Hence my question about training as a martial art, above and beyond training for sportive applications.  But some of the guys on that other thread didn't even get what I meant by that.  There is a different mindset involved between a martial art and sport.  I think this may be a more important distinction even that the techniques used.


I'm sorry guys but I'm not a fan of MAP forum. They protect ninjas from any questions or criticism and their discussions suffer because of it. There's a lot of Japan-o-philes there who read all the martial ats pop culture propaganda and never look at it with an objective eye or dig deeper. I don't know why but people there often repeat the same old hat as if it was a proven fact rather than consider another view. 



cloud dancing said:


> Just remembered his name-Jerry Arroyo.Mandarigma Sikharan Red belt.  If anyone can find old SEAsian games books-his name is there for lightweight chamionship.  funny how memory kicks in.
> Question=why youse guys keep saying TAI-CHI IS NOT FOR FIGHTING??? Worked for me several times.and for others as well.
> Just same as with all arts.Work on the basics.Chen ssu chen.rowing, standing.forms until they change into new forms. It's all about practise and I look to all of you,when ever on this forum- for the inspiration to go beyond my pains and excuses. Train and more. Any ideas how to go beyond this shaking I get after I explode and attack? always ahve to go where others will not see how my entire body, especially my hands keep shaking from the anger. Some ways, I kinda like that it happens Makes me feel human.                    Even one small candle will drive away the darkness.Lighthouse in mtns of Chiangrai,Thailand,



I mentioned that as tai chi is most commonly practiced the primary goal is something other than martial. There's an emphasis on health, vitality, meditation, that is prioritized over fighting ability. There's nothing wrong with that. I've talked to some guys recovering from injury and tai chi has worked wonders for them. I'm aware there are more combat focused tai chi schools in existence but my understanding and experience is that they are much less common.


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## tshadowchaser

just a question folk  are you trying to spell Sikaran if so are the spellings above native to your country?
If you look up Mandarigma Sikharan on Google you end up with Sikaran sites
ok off topic I know


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## cloud dancing

Thank you,Drop Bear & Danny T.If I do return to USA-I'll hope to visit you in Louisiana.Shadow-Mandarigma Sikaran May ahve been Jerry's name for the School or just used in Philipines.Past I have positive memories and regrets/future-hopes.
Lighthouse in mtns.Chiangrai,Thailand


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## Shajikfer

KPM said:


> Hi Guys!
> 
> Does anyone here train their Boxing as a martial art? If so, what kind of things do you work on apart from the usual sport-related training?


 
For ring fighting a lot of boxing techniques are excellent to implement in mma style fighting. But I feel like I literally just said the blue sky is blue.

I am not sure how one would consider boxing not a martial art.


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## Transk53

Shajikfer said:


> I am not sure how one would consider boxing not a martial art.



Because proper boxing is something completely different. Shocking and brutal violence wrought with no finesse other than the technique involved. In that I do not mean some caveman like attitude, just in the pure reality of the sweet science. Overall boxing is not a martial art, just a very effective means of putting someone down hard. Yeah of course though, if you can box you can do much more


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## Andrew Green

KPM said:


> Hi Guys!
> 
> Does anyone here train their Boxing as a martial art? If so, what kind of things do you work on apart from the usual sport-related training?



Boxing is a martial art?

I mean you can say it's all sport, but then so is something like Kendo, you don't have a self-defence portion of training in Kendo but most would consider it a martial art.  

It's also older then most eastern martial arts.  The Queensbury rules have been around 125+ years.  Not many eastern arts can claim that much of a history without a drastic change of approach... which boxing can to as it existed before those rules.

Really I think the only claim that you can make against boxing that won't lead to taking a ton of other martial arts off the list of martial arts is that it didn't come from Asia, and that's kind of a silly criteria.


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## Andrew Green

Transk53 said:


> Because proper boxing is something completely different. Shocking and brutal violence wrought with no finesse other than the technique involved. In that I do not mean some caveman like attitude, just in the pure reality of the sweet science. Overall boxing is not a martial art, just a very effective means of putting someone down hard. Yeah of course though, if you can box you can do much more



As oppose to Muay Thai?  Sanshou? Knock-down rules of Kyokushin? Lei Tai matches?

Or is your argument it's not a martial art because it is effective at what it does, I'm missing your point completely here.  And if you don't think there is finesse in it you are quite wrong and should spend some time in a gym.  Or watch some of the great boxers work. I'm not sure how you can watch a high level boxer fight and not see finesse.  Even guys like Tyson with all that raw power, when he was in his prime his movement and setups where art.


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## Transk53

Andrew Green said:


> As oppose to Muay Thai?  Sanshou? Knock-down rules of Kyokushin? Lei Tai matches?
> 
> Or is your argument it's not a martial art because it is effective at what it does, I'm missing your point completely here.  And if you don't think there is finesse in it you are quite wrong and should spend some time in a gym.  Or watch some of the great boxers work. I'm not sure how you can watch a high level boxer fight and not see finesse.  Even guys like Tyson with all that raw power, when he was in his prime his movement and setups where art.



Yeah you missed the point. No disrespect, but you would not understand either, all though you did point to the path   I believe you mistake art for intrinsic ability. I could jump on the boxing insult, but I won't. You are entitled to you're 15 minutes


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Yeah you missed the point. No disrespect, but you would not understand either, all though you did point to the path   I believe you mistake art for intrinsic ability. I could jump on the boxing insult, but I won't. You are entitled to you're 15 minutes



It can be art and still violent.

One of the factors that makes boxing an art is that good boxers beat bad ones. It means there is something within the boxing not just the person.


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## Transk53

drop bear said:


> It can be art and still violent.
> 
> One of the factors that makes boxing an art is that good boxers beat bad ones. It means there is something within the boxing not just the person.



I guess it is just my own interpretation then. Have trouble conveying myself a lot of the time, so maybe I did not word it right. Guess that is the fun in learning stuff even if technically wrong.


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## Shajikfer

Transk53 said:


> Because proper boxing is something completely different. Shocking and brutal violence wrought with no finesse other than the technique involved. In that I do not mean some caveman like attitude, just in the pure reality of the sweet science. Overall boxing is not a martial art, just a very effective means of putting someone down hard. Yeah of course though, if you can box you can do much more


 
I don't know. From my understanding of Martial Arts history, the earliest forms of recorded martial arts are boxing and wrestling, with the oldest portions depicted at the tomb of Beni Hasan. In my view, boxing is technically the oldest form of martial arts, though it has changed over the millenia.

Minoan Sport - HistoryWiz Ancient History

minoan boxing - Google Search


Sorry for long links, can't figure out how to post an image.


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## Transk53

Yes in antiquity they were there also. As a martial art, how far does one go through recorded history?


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## Shajikfer

Transk53 said:


> Yes in antiquity they were there also. As a martial art, how far does one go through recorded history?


 
As far back as combat was practiced in my eyes.


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## Transk53

Shajikfer said:


> As far back as combat was practiced in my eyes.



Interesting stuff really.


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## ShotoNoob

I COULDN'T BOX MY WAY OUT OF A PAPER BAG.
|
Boxing was developed as a sport but originally practiced was a marital art.  Newer evolutions mentioned, including the sport, are martial arts.  My 2 cents....


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## Transk53

ShotoNoob said:


> I COULDN'T BOX MY WAY OUT OF A PAPER BAG.
> |
> Boxing was developed as a sport but originally practiced was a marital art.  Newer evolutions mentioned, including the sport, are martial arts.  My 2 cents....



Well I'm big enough to admit that I am wrong, after having spent some time to research some stuff. My thinking was that kickboxing was an evolution of boxing, therefore a martial art in whatever sense I understood. Boxing though is set. You can't just walk out into a ring and then decide to throw an uppercut elbow for example. I have viewed boxing (not in a disrespectful way) as basic human need to defend oneself and as natural system to learn and follow. Pretty much anyone can learn to box, doesn't mean anyone can be particularly good at. I don't think that just anybody could turn up to a dojo and suddenly learn a martial art in that respect. That is the way I look at rightly or completely wrongly.


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## Mephisto

Transk53 said:


> Because proper boxing is something completely different. Shocking and brutal violence wrought with no finesse other than the technique involved. In that I do not mean some caveman like attitude, just in the pure reality of the sweet science. Overall boxing is not a martial art, just a very effective means of putting someone down hard. Yeah of course though, if you can box you can do much more


I realize Transk has developed and perhaps rethought his opinion since this post, but the comment about boxing and other sports being brutal is something I've heard before. You have some in the TMA community who say that their arts are for the deadly streets and the real world, not for a "game" or sport in the ring. The same guys than proceed to call sport fighters brutal, barbaric, and unskilled. This is contradictory, either your deadly street art is brutal and deadly and sport arts are just playing games. Or vise versa, you can't say your art is a deadly street art than call martial sports brutal and barbaric.


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Well I'm big enough to admit that I am wrong, after having spent some time to research some stuff. My thinking was that kickboxing was an evolution of boxing, therefore a martial art in whatever sense I understood. Boxing though is set. You can't just walk out into a ring and then decide to throw an uppercut elbow for example. I have viewed boxing (not in a disrespectful way) as basic human need to defend oneself and as natural system to learn and follow. Pretty much anyone can learn to box, doesn't mean anyone can be particularly good at. I don't think that just anybody could turn up to a dojo and suddenly learn a martial art in that respect. That is the way I look at rightly or completely wrongly.



Boxing is a fairly unnatural system. Naturally people want to throw haymakers walk like a normal person and turn their head away from punches.


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## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Boxing is a fairly unnatural system. Naturally people want to throw haymakers walk like a normal person and turn their head away from punches.




True. I just feel that as a kid and others, dodging in a plaground, lashing out a boxing esq type punch would be more natural to the human mind. I dunno, just the way I see it. Just cant help it. That it not to say that my is mind closeted and fixated on this, certainly is not. You can still have victory in defeat by absorbing data.


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## Laplace_demon

How does the beginner process look like in Boxing? Is the physical conditioning dominating ? How long is it until the actual boxing starts  - punching targets, sparring etc.. Is it very boring the first month?

I am interested in training it as a martial art only.


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## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> How does the beginner process look like in Boxing? Is the physical conditioning dominating ? How long is it until the actual boxing starts  - punching targets, sparring etc.. Is it very boring the first month?
> 
> I am interested in training it as a martial art only.



When I started I had my first sparring session after a couple weeks of conditioning, drilling, and combination work(I.e. punch mitts)

I've seen a gym integrate new guys into sparring (although controlled light contact) after only a couple classes, but Im not sure how common it is.

As for conditioning,  it was a part of every class at some point in varying degrees. I wouldn't say it was dominating though, no worse than any other coontact/combat sport I've trained it.

Hardest part for me in the beginning was making weight, at least until I found a proper diet for it. But if you don't care about competing, that won't be an issue


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## jks9199

Laplace_demon said:


> How does the beginner process look like in Boxing? Is the physical conditioning dominating ? How long is it until the actual boxing starts  - punching targets, sparring etc.. Is it very boring the first month?
> 
> I am interested in training it as a martial art only.


Depends on the club and the gym.

Most are not going to throw you directly into sparring until you build a tool set.  But you may well be on the bags and working with pads within the first few workouts... or even the first few minutes.


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## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> How does the beginner process look like in Boxing? Is the physical conditioning dominating ? How long is it until the actual boxing starts  - punching targets, sparring etc.. Is it very boring the first month?
> 
> I am interested in training it as a martial art only.



Bear in mind the better boxers do the sport. And there is very little in the sports side of the art that removes itself from self defence application.

For us the boxing method starts day one.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Will my training in traditional martial arts (Taekwon-Do), be an ok entry or should I start running before joining? We do lots push up, situps, leg/ stomach excercises. Basically a little bit of everything, for maybe 15 minutes per class. Now the thing is, I still tire easily in our sparring. if I am constantly active. As much as these excersises streighten me, it really doesn't do much for my durability..


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> Will my training in traditional martial arts (Taekwon-Do), be an ok entry or should I start running before joining? We do lots push up, situps, leg/ stomach excercises. Basically a little bit of everything, for maybe 15 minutes per class. Now the thing is, I still tire easily in our sparring. if I am constantly active. As much as these excersises streighten me, it really doesn't do much for my durability..



Depends,

We would have days at my gym that were heavy workout days. Sprints, running miles, exercises with a partner as your weight( squats and lunges, pushups with legs on each other, etc.) Some days that'd be 20 minutes at the end, and occasionally it'd be an hour and a half  and wed hit the boxing in whatever was left.

As for cardio,

It depends, the gloves will be heavy and that'll wear your arms out. But general cardio, they're very similar. Depending on how long you go at a time it may or may not be an easy transition. 

For example, being a blue belt in my class I tend to spar 3-4 times a night at roughly 2-3 minutes each time, with somewhere around 30 sec to a minute of catching my breath. Unless The BB really want a workout, or The highest ups in our associations are here, which case we'll go 5 minute rounds.

Now when I was boxing, we would do quick sparring sessions like that sometimes. But generally, if my coach was gonna have me spar for 10-20 minutes of a session he'd have me with one of the better guys there and go longer rounds at a time, 3-5 minutes (as my age groups used 1.5 then 2 minute rounds). 

Being an adult, you may or may not go longer.

Some coaches will drive their guys that compete harder and make them do more than those who dont


----------



## Laplace_demon

drop bear said:


> Bear in mind the better boxers do the sport. And there is very little in the sports side of the art that removes itself from self defence application.
> 
> For us the boxing method starts day one.



Self defence does not concern me. I know what will happen to my hands if I were to throw a right hand cross with no gloves on. Not to be recommended, unless there is no other option. Always good to have it of course.


----------



## Buka

No idea how anything is done today with people starting out in a boxing gym, I imagine it would depend on the gym. As for how it used to be done, it would depend on the gym, it's trainers, their knowledge, their clientèle/fighters. Pretty much same same all the way around.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Are they in general OK with people who have no interest in the competitive/sport aspect of Boxing? Will these individuals get seperate training or how do they normally solve this? Alot of that conditioning would be useless if I only want to be there to perfect boxing punches. As to Sparring - don't care one way or other on that point either, in the long run.


----------



## Transk53

Laplace_demon said:


> Are they in general OK with people who have no interest in the competitive/sport aspect of Boxing? Will these individuals get seperate training or how do they normally solve this? Alot of that conditioning would be useless if I only want to be there to perfect boxing punches. As to Sparring - don't care one way or other on that point either, in the long run.



Don't see why not. You will no doubt be advised to do at least some soft contact sparring to hone that technique. Besides, sparring is a lot of fun


----------



## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> Boxing was developed as a sport but originally practiced was a *marital art.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Please do expand on this..... did it push the divorce rate up or keep couples together?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Transk53 said:


> Don't see why not. You will no doubt be advised to do at least some soft contact sparring to hone that technique. Besides, sparring is a lot of fun



I can imagine it will be very fun with my "Jon Jones- reach", hehe.


----------



## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> Self defence does not concern me. I know what will happen to my hands if I were to throw a right hand cross with no gloves on. Not to be recommended, unless there is no other option. Always good to have it of course.



Yes they shatter like glass.

You don't have to be fit before you start. It is factored in that new people will need some work.

So just pop in to a gym and get started.


----------



## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> Are they in general OK with people who have no interest in the competitive/sport aspect of Boxing? Will these individuals get seperate training or how do they normally solve this? Alot of that conditioning would be useless if I only want to be there to perfect boxing punches. As to Sparring - don't care one way or other on that point either, in the long run.



What do you think the difference would be between self defence boxing and sport boxing?


----------



## Laplace_demon

drop bear said:


> What do you think the difference would be between self defence boxing and sport boxing?



Things like head movement and other strategies within the boxing ring which doesn't translate to a streetfight where  I can get  elbowed,kneed, kicked, taken down in the process.


----------



## Drose427

Laplace_demon said:


> Things like head movement and other strategies within the boxing ring which doesn't translate to a streetfight where  I can get  elbowed,kneed, kicked, taken down in the process.



A lot of that will translate if you're doing it properly

The things that don't translate directly (some ducks and leans) will if you adjust the movement a little more. I.e. stepping out while ducking under, so even if someone brings an attack straight down it'll miss your head.


----------



## Transk53

Laplace_demon said:


> Things like head movement and other strategies within the boxing ring which doesn't translate to a streetfight where  I can get  elbowed,kneed, kicked, taken down in the process.



I wouldn't get hung up on this street fight angle too much. A decent jab will usually make one of those numpty's take notice. Guess you could meet a Muay Thai practitioner or something, but probably very very rare in that environment, if at all. Yeah okay you might get kicked if you go down. Actually you probably will, but more likely face softies and ill executed swingers. A grudge match probably, a street fight nah. The glory ain't the glory arena a lot of people think they are. But yeah, knowing you can put someone away and then walk away without injury is feeling that conveys itself back. Just my take on it


----------



## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> Things like head movement and other strategies within the boxing ring which doesn't translate to a streetfight where  I can get  elbowed,kneed, kicked, taken down in the process.



They are mostly things you would add to boxing rather than take away.

Otherwise the differences will matter more in a ring fight of a different code where a person will be mindful of how to,say,catch you with a knee while you duck under a punch.

Rather than a self defence where they are probably not going to be skilled enough to make that work for them.

The self defence boxing is the sport boxing.


----------



## Mephisto

Laplace_demon said:


> Self defence does not concern me. I know what will happen to my hands if I were to throw a right hand cross with no gloves on. Not to be recommended, unless there is no other option. Always good to have it of course.


Do you? Breaking your hand is a risk, but with any hand strike you risk damaging yourself. I've unloaded some power punches in the $treetz, no shattered hands! Just some soreness the next day. I've heard countless example of guys who have broken hands in fights and continued. Some athletes have fought whole matches with broken hands. I'd say it's worth the risk and a small price to pay for your safety. Most martial arts teach to punch, if debilitating hand injury were such a guarantee punches probably wouldn't be so common. Man up!



drop bear said:


> Yes they shatter like glass.


You'd better be kidding! 


Laplace_demon said:


> Things like head movement and other strategies within the boxing ring which doesn't translate to a streetfight where  I can get  elbowed,kneed, kicked, taken down in the process.


You can also get punched in the head. Head movement is one of the greatest benefits to boxing training. Someone post the video of the guy getting random people off the street to punch him in the head. It might not be the best thing to do if you're fighting experienced kickers, but that's not likely on the $treetz.


----------



## drop bear

Mephisto said:


> You'd better be kidding!



Yeah I am kidding.


----------



## Steve

A little late to the game, but it seems like there's a distinction being drawn between boxing as a sport and boxing as a martial art.  I think western boxing is a martial art AND it can be trained for self defense.  But that the two are not the same thing.

Self defense application is often associated with martial arts training, but there are examples of martial arts that have zero application for self defense.  Or at least are very impractical.  For example, Kyudo is a very impractical style for self defense, but few would suggest it is not a martial art.


----------



## VT_Vectis

Laplace_demon said:


> Self defence does not concern me. I know what will happen to my hands if I were to throw a right hand cross with no gloves on. Not to be recommended, unless there is no other option. Always good to have it of course.



Mate, get yourself "Championship Fighting; Explosive Punching and Effective Defense" by  Jack Dempsey, a great fighter and a great man. In it he tells you exactly how you should be punching when not using gloves. He also explains why this method works and why the boxers fracture happens when ungloved even though your gloved technique is fine. 

 Then go learn the techniques from the boxing club and adjust as needed


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Transk53 said:


> Well I'm big enough to admit that I am wrong, after having spent some time to research some stuff. My thinking was that kickboxing was an evolution of boxing, therefore a martial art in whatever sense I understood. Boxing though is set. You can't just walk out into a ring and then decide to throw an uppercut elbow for example. I have viewed boxing (not in a disrespectful way) as basic human need to defend oneself and as natural system to learn and follow. Pretty much anyone can learn to box, doesn't mean anyone can be particularly good at. I don't think that just anybody could turn up to a dojo and suddenly learn a martial art in that respect. That is the way I look at rightly or completely wrongly.


Maybe it's just me, but I have precisely zero idea of what you are trying to communicate here.

Are you saying that the process of learning boxing is somehow easier or different from the process of learning any other martial art? You don't "suddenly learn" it any more than any other art. You learn boxing through sustained consistent practice over time - just like Judo or Wing Chun or TKD or Silat or any other art.

What do the rules of the ring have to do with it? You also can't walk into a Judo tournament or a Tae Kwon Do competition and start hitting people with uppercut elbows. Does that mean they aren't martial arts?

Can you clarify your point? Perhaps you can start by offering your definition of a martial art, because nothing you've said so far in this thread is quite making sense to me. Perhaps if I knew what you meant by the term in question I would understand better.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Can one train Boxing and Karate/TKD at the same time? A guy at my club claim that they would force me to beef up muscles and that it's in herent to Boxing, a certain boxing type physique, regardless if I compete or not. He suggested I wait until I have black belt in TKD, but I won't. It's either both or I lay off TKD for some time.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Laplace_demon said:


> Can one train Boxing and Karate/TKD at the same time? A guy at my club claim that they would force me to beef up muscles and that it's in herent to Boxing, a certain boxing type physique, regardless if I compete or not isn't elevant. He suggested I wait until I have black belt in TKD, but I won't. It's either both or I lay off TKD for some time.


You can and many people have. The big thing you need to remember is to keep each art in its respective place for the time being. Don't go into your TKD class telling your instructor "My boxing coach said I should punch _this_ way" or vice versa. Show respect for the art you are learning and the instructor you are learning from at the moment.

The guy saying that boxing will force you to "beef up" has no idea what he is talking about. Boxing training will force you to work on your conditioning, but that is a far cry from forcing you to "beef up."


----------



## Transk53

Tony Dismukes said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I have precisely zero idea of what you are trying to communicate here.
> 
> Are you saying that the process of learning boxing is somehow easier or different from the process of learning any other martial art? You don't "suddenly learn" it any more than any other art. You learn boxing through sustained consistent practice over time - just like Judo or Wing Chun or TKD or Silat or any other art.
> 
> What do the rules of the ring have to do with it? You also can't walk into a Judo tournament or a Tae Kwon Do competition and start hitting people with uppercut elbows. Does that mean they aren't martial arts?
> 
> Can you clarify your point? Perhaps you can start by offering your definition of a martial art, because nothing you've said so far in this thread is quite making sense to me. Perhaps if I knew what you meant by the term in question I would understand better.



I just see boxing as a intrinsic core ability. In the playing ground, a kid naturally strikes out with his fist, he will not go through a routine of forms. Just my personal take in simplistic terms.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tony Dismukes said:


> You can and many people have. The big thing you need to remember is to keep each art in its respective place for the time being. Don't go into your TKD class telling your instructor "My boxing coach said I should punch _this_ way" or vice versa. Show respect for the art you are learning and the instructor you are learning from at the moment.
> "



I don't see why you felt the need to point that out. Do I really come across that stupid?


----------



## Transk53

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't see why you felt the need to point that out. Do I really come across that stupid?





No, but a little common sense would say that aggravated you. Hey learning is learning.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Transk53 said:


> I just see boxing as a intrinsic core ability. In the playing ground, a kid naturally strikes out with his fist, he will not go through a routine of forms. Just my personal take in simplistic terms.



It might very well be an ability you are born with. That does not however make it less of an art. There is also the distinction between technical proficiency and being a great fighter. A distinction you seem to blurr.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Transk53 said:


> I just see boxing as a intrinsic core ability. In the playing ground, a kid naturally strikes out with his fist, he will not go through a routine of forms. Just my personal take in simplistic terms.


I'm going to disagree with you pretty strongly on that. An untrained person throwing an untrained punch is not boxing any more than it is Karate, Wing Chun, or Tae Kwon Do. There is a lot of sophisticated technique that goes into making boxing what it is and that technique is not an "intrinsic core ability."

For that matter, grabbing hold of someone in a fight is also an instinctive act - but you wouldn't say that an untrained kid tackling someone on the playground is doing BJJ would you?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Transk53 said:


> No, but a little common sense would say that aggravated you. Hey learning is learning.



If people write to me as if I was a 5 year old, then yeah, It will aggravate me.


----------



## Laplace_demon

VT_Vectis said:


> Mate, get yourself "Championship Fighting; Explosive Punching and Effective Defense" by  Jack Dempsey, a great fighter and a great man. In it he tells you exactly how you should be punching when not using gloves. He also explains why this method works and why the boxers fracture happens when ungloved even though your gloved technique is fine.
> 
> Then go learn the techniques from the boxing club and adjust as needed



Why not instead tell me where mr Dempsey  advocates that I should punch, so I don't have to read the hole book  A human skull is of the hardest materials in the world for your fist to strike. Far harder than whatever Karatekas use for breaking.


----------



## Steve

Transk53 said:


> I just see boxing as a intrinsic core ability. In the playing ground, a kid naturally strikes out with his fist, he will not go through a routine of forms. Just my personal take in simplistic terms.


I would say fighting is an intrinsic, core ability.  They don't call it the "fight or flight" instinct for nothing.   But fighting and boxing aren't the same thing.  Just as fighting and TKD aren't the same.


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> I would say fighting is an intrinsic, core ability.  They don't call it the "fight or flight" instinct for nothing.   But fighting and boxing aren't the same thing.  Just as fighting and TKD aren't the same.



Hey look. I simply can't convey my thoughts to defend myself here. I need time to digest. Fighting, where do you think boxing comes from?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't see why you felt the need to point that out. Do I really come across that stupid?



I've met way too many students along the way who didn't seem to understand the concept. If you aren't the sort to argue with your seniors when they try to teach you something, then good for you.


----------



## Steve

Transk53 said:


> Hey look. I simply can't convey my thoughts to defend myself here. I need time to digest. Fighting, where do you think boxing comes from?


I get it.  No problem.    as you digest. Just consider that fighting and boxing aren't the same thing.   Boxing is fighting in a particular way with a defined set of techniques and skills honed through training.   Tkd is also fighting, just as all ma styles are.   

All poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles.   Right?  

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Laplace_demon

Does a Boxing instructor allow personal imprint - your own style, beyond the basics, or are they dogmatic like traditional martial arts instructors whos patterns and way of delivery is the bibel.

Could Marcianos technique be approved by a modern Boxing Academy, or would the instructor "correct" him?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Laplace_demon said:


> Does a Boxing instructor allow personal imprint - your own style, beyond the basics, or are they dogmatic like traditional martial arts instructors whos patterns and way of delivery is the bibel.
> 
> Could Marcianos technique be approved by a modern Boxing Academy, or would the instructor "correct" him?


It very much depends on the coach. Some will be more flexible than others.


----------



## Transk53

Laplace_demon said:


> Does a Boxing instructor allow personal imprint - your own style, beyond the basics, or are they dogmatic like traditional martial arts instructors whos patterns and way of delivery is the bibel.
> 
> Could Marcianos technique be approved by a modern Boxing Academy, or would the instructor "correct" him?



No, he was what he was.


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> I get it.  No problem.    as you digest. Just consider that fighting and boxing aren't the same thing.   Boxing is fighting in a particular way with a defined set of techniques and skills honed through training.   Tkd is also fighting, just as all ma styles are.
> 
> All poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles.   Right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Really. Okay, define fighting. And no, I am not biting


----------



## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> Does a Boxing instructor allow personal imprint - your own style, beyond the basics, or are they dogmatic like traditional martial arts instructors whos patterns and way of delivery is the bibel.
> 
> Could Marcianos technique be approved by a modern Boxing Academy, or would the instructor "correct" him?



Depends how crap your boxing is. Normally if we can bash you then you should be doing it our way.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Depends how crap your boxing is. Normally if we can bash you then you should be doing it our way.



Curious here bear. With what you do, guess it is easier to compensate with a lack of boxing skill. Perhaps a fighter at your gym would be taught to perfect a hook maybe, but with the aim to go for a grapple straight after?


----------



## Laplace_demon

How about vertical vs horizontal punches. Will most Boxing schools teach/train both?


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Curious here bear. With what you do, guess it is easier to compensate with a lack of boxing skill. Perhaps a fighter at your gym would be taught to perfect a hook maybe, but with the aim to go for a grapple straight after?



Yes. He says tentatively.

You are not really trying to compensate as much as get as good as you can at the individual components. They are all important.


----------



## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> How about vertical vs horizontal punches. Will most Boxing schools teach/train both?



Yes.......


----------



## Laplace_demon

Good 

Apparenty, a typical Boxing conditioning is: 30 pushups, followed by 30 clap push ups, followed by 30 finger pushups, followed by squats, and other things.  It will leave a  fairly lazy guy blown away even before the punching starts.

Compare that to Taekwondo conditioning: 30 pushups, followed by 20 pushups, followed by 10 pushups (I can't even do that fully, they do it too fast, and once my breathing get's heavy I have to slow down, followed by 50 situps. Countless stomach exercises lift your legs up to the air and down - maybe 75 times, holding on to something in the back, in  a sitting position.  The last exercise is very annyoing but manageable.

I would get blown away in a Boxing Class.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Yes. He says tentatively.
> 
> You are not really trying to compensate as much as get as good as you can at the individual components. They are all important.



Right, get yeah. I imagine at some point they would need to compensate.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Right, get yeah. I imagine at some point they would need to compensate.



Yeah but if you can't deal with one aspect of the fighting then it makes it harder to apply the others. You don't want to be trying takedowns out of desperation because you are getting bashed.


----------



## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> Good
> 
> Apparenty, a typical Boxing conditioning is: 30 pushups, followed by 30 clap push ups, followed by 30 finger pushups, followed by squats, and other things.  It will leave a  fairly lazy guy blown away even before the punching starts.
> 
> Compare that to Taekwondo conditioning: 30 pushups, followed by 20 pushups, followed by 10 pushups (I can't even do that fully, they do it too fast, and once my breathing get's heavy I have to slow down, followed by 50 situps. Countless stomach exercises lift your legs up to the air and down - maybe 75 times, holding on to something in the back, in  a sitting position.  The last exercise is very annyoing but manageable.
> 
> I would get blown away in a Boxing Class.



Yeah but once can do the boxing warm up you will own the tkd one.

Look at some stage you will have to stand in a ring for 3 minutes and throw hard shots at someone. That can tucker a man out.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Yeah but if you can't deal with one aspect of the fighting then it makes it harder to apply the others. You don't want to be trying takedowns out of desperation because you are getting bashed.



Good point.


----------



## VT_Vectis

Laplace_demon said:


> Why not instead tell me where mr Dempsey  advocates that I should punch, so I don't have to read the hole book  A human skull is of the hardest materials in the world for your fist to strike. Far harder than whatever Karatekas use for breaking.



It's not so much where on the skull I'm talking about, as how you position your fist, and what part you impact with. Though not hitting the forehead or top of the skull is a good idea. And hitting the jaw line from ear to chin is a better one.

Would you rather hear from me, a chap with a bit off MA experience, with a few playground fights under his belt, who on two separate occasions got knocked out in a bar (got sucker punched both times) or would you rather read a book by one of the greatest boxers of the last century who held the heavy weight title against all comers for a number of years, understood the body mechanics behind throwing a powerfull punch, and ,at the time he wrote the book ,had about 30-40 years boxing experience?

Google Jack Dempsey, then see if it's worth buying the book. (It most certainly is!)


----------



## Transk53

VT_Vectis said:


> It's not so much where on the skull I'm talking about, as how you position your fist, and what part you impact with. Though not hitting the forehead or top of the skull is a good idea. And hitting the jaw line from ear to chin is a better one.
> 
> Would you rather hear from me, a chap with a bit off MA experience, with a few playground fights under his belt, who on two separate occasions got knocked out in a bar (got sucker punched both times) or would you rather read a book by one of the greatest boxers of the last century who held the heavy weight title against all comers for a number of years, understood the body mechanics behind throwing a powerfull punch, and ,at the time he wrote the book ,had about 30-40 years boxing experience?
> 
> Google Jack Dempsey, then see if it's worth buying the book. (It most certainly is!)



What a left hook.


----------



## Laplace_demon

drop bear said:


> Yeah but once can do the boxing warm up you will own the tkd one.



How am I supposed to do that, when after more than 6 months I _still _cheat the TKD conditioning in push ups. Sit ups however is peanuts for me, for whatever reason. I can do 200 in about 2 minutes and 10 seconds (I clocked it).

My legs are strong as well.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> *How am I supposed to do that,* when after more than 6 months I _still _cheat the TKD conditioning in push ups. Sit ups however is peanuts for me, for whatever reason. I can do 200 in about 2 minutes and 10 seconds (I clocked it).
> 
> My legs are strong as well.




Stop cheating, stop spending so much time arguing with people here and train more.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> Stop cheating, stop spending so much time arguing with people here and train more.



Go train yourself and stop obsessing my posts.

It really isn't cheating, but I should be able to do it 100%. after so long. My weight is very light, but I can also pick anyone apart so quickly that they won't know what happened to them. This is very evident in two step sparring when I kick or punch lighting fast and retract, so they can feel the wind in their face . My sparring partner doesn't understand that this is innate in me. I am not even close to touching them.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Go train yourself and stop obsessing my posts.
> 
> It really isn't cheating, but I should be able to do it 100%. after so long. My weight is very light, but I can also pick anyone apart so quickly that they won't know what happened to them. This is very evident in two step sparring when I kick or punch lighting fast and retract, so they can feel the wind in their face . My sparring partner doesn't understand that this is innate in me. I am not even close to touching them.




You can't 'obsess' posts lol. However it's amusing how you fantasise about your abilities as a martial artist.... if you partner is feeling your wind in their face I'd suggest you aren't doing it properly and need to cut down on eating those beans.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> You can't 'obsess' posts lol. However it's amusing how you fantasise about your abilities as a martial artist.... if you partner is feeling your wind in their face I'd suggest you aren't doing it properly and need to cut down on eating those beans.



Only because you can't.....And my stamina is poor because I am several kilograms below my expected height. This however might be in my favour for the knees taking less damage (because of less weight). That's at least how I rationalise it.


----------



## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> How am I supposed to do that, when after more than 6 months I _still _cheat the TKD conditioning in push ups. Sit ups however is peanuts for me, for whatever reason. I can do 200 in about 2 minutes and 10 seconds (I clocked it).
> 
> My legs are strong as well.



Well you go do the boxing. Then you get good at it.


----------



## Laplace_demon

drop bear said:


> Well you go do the boxing. Then you get good at it.



I am not sure I follow you. Do you suggest that I box myself into shape?


----------



## Laplace_demon

.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> You can't 'obsess' posts lol..



O yes you can. Obsessing over posts.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> O yes you can. Obsessing over posts.




Don't flatter yourself sonny, you are one of the most amusing posters here why wouldn't I follow you, you make me laugh more than many.
Oh and drop bear is correct.

'Expected height', you dropped your guard there didn't you, if you aren't grown up yet you are a lot younger than you are letting on aren't you, what are you 15, 16 maybe?


----------



## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> I am not sure I follow you. Do you suggest that I box myself into shape?



Correct.


----------



## Laplace_demon

drop bear said:


> Correct.



Hmmm. Do you allow TKD guys in to visit and spar full contact? Can I kick midsection and above, to get compensation, or does that scare you guys?


----------



## K-man

Laplace_demon said:


> Good
> 
> Apparenty, a typical Boxing conditioning is: 30 pushups, followed by 30 clap push ups, followed by 30 finger pushups, followed by squats, and other things.  It will leave a  fairly lazy guy blown away even before the punching starts.
> 
> Compare that to Taekwondo conditioning: 30 pushups, followed by 20 pushups, followed by 10 pushups (I can't even do that fully, they do it too fast, and once my breathing get's heavy I have to slow down, followed by 50 situps. Countless stomach exercises lift your legs up to the air and down - maybe 75 times, holding on to something in the back, in  a sitting position.  The last exercise is very annyoing but manageable.
> 
> I would get blown away in a Boxing Class.


I don't consider myself super fit and I would be pushing to run a kilometre these days but there wouldn't be a day at the gym where we don't do 100 to 200 push-ups, 100 to 200 crunches, sit-ups or throw downs, 100+ squats, same for lunges and 3 to 5 minutes of skipping. Plus, of course, the weights, bikes and other equipment.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> Yeah but once can do the boxing warm up you will own the tkd one.
> 
> Look at some stage you will have to stand in a ring for 3 minutes and throw hard shots at someone. That can tucker a man out.


One of the things I get my guys to do is hit the heavy bag as hard as they can and as fast as they can. I time it until they start to slow which is usually about 30 seconds. 

It really is no different to a sprinter. When you give absolutely everything you hav,e it doesn't take long to start to tire.


----------



## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> Hmmm. Do you allow TKD guys in to visit and spar full contact? Can I kick midsection and above, to get compensation, or does that scare you guys?



You would be welcome to come in and spar full contact with us if you liked. Probably be kickboxing rules though if you wanted to kick. 

So leg kicks as well. Mabye knees.

Not sure if a straight boxing gym would do it.

Otherwise I would suggest you don't spar full contact to start just in case your version and our version is different.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> One of the things I get my guys to do is hit the heavy bag as hard as they can and as fast as they can. I time it until they start to slow which is usually about 30 seconds.
> 
> It really is no different to a sprinter. When you give absolutely everything you hav,e it doesn't take long to start to tire.



Yeah. We get a few people who will jump in the cage for sparring and then just call it under a minute because they are knackered.


----------



## Laplace_demon

drop bear said:


> You would be welcome to come in and spar full contact with us if you liked. Probably be kickboxing rules though if you wanted to kick.
> 
> So leg kicks as well. Mabye knees.
> 
> Not sure if a straight boxing gym would do it.
> 
> Otherwise I would suggest you don't spar full contact to start just in case your version and our version is different.



Well I was thinking American Kickboxing rules, which doesn't allow knees or Low kicks. It may sound strange but given that you midsection body MUST be conditioned  as a Boxer anyway, does it really matter if I am allowed to kick there? 

Maybe the trainer would object to head kicks, but midsection kicking is a good trade off.


----------



## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> Well I was thinking American Kickboxing rules, which doesn't allow knees or Low kicks. It may sound strange but given that you midsection body MUST be conditioned  as a Boxer anyway, does it really matter if I am allowed to kick there?
> 
> Maybe the trainer would object to head kicks, but midsection kicking is a good trade off.



It would be interesting to see if just midsection kicks would provide much advantage. I know i would not want to keep someone off me using them.

You would probably find a boxer who would go for that.


----------



## Laplace_demon

drop bear said:


> It would be interesting to see if just midsection kicks would provide much advantage. I know i would not want to keep someone off me using them.
> 
> You would probably find a boxer who would go for that.




I don't think it would give an advantage. But a TKD guy could definately score the boxer some more. It simply doesn't work to box without knowing real boxing, with boxing gloves.

Although now that I think of it, nah. Doesn't make sense without head kicks allowed


----------



## Buka

Laplace_demon said:


> Go train yourself and stop obsessing my posts.
> 
> It really isn't cheating, but I should be able to do it 100%. after so long. My weight is very light, but I can also pick anyone apart so quickly that they won't know what happened to them. This is very evident in two step sparring when I kick or punch lighting fast and retract, so they can feel the wind in their face . My sparring partner doesn't understand that this is innate in me. I am not even close to touching them.



I hope they appreciate the experience. Personally, I love getting dazzled.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Buka said:


> I hope they appreciate the experience. Personally, I love getting dazzled.



A red belt gasped. But he still didn't trust me when I assured him, and asked me to stop doing it so fast. Especially the kicks. Poor guy


----------



## Buka

Laplace_demon said:


> A red belt gasped. But he still didn't trust me when I assured him, and asked me to stop doing it so fast. Especially the kicks. Poor guy



Gain his trust and help him. You know you gotta'.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Buka said:


> Gain his trust and help him. You know you gotta'.



I don't care about him. Actually he might have been a blue belt!  Anyway, doesn't matter. Belt indications are about as indicative as Astrology signs. Silly system.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't care about him.



That says it all.



Laplace_demon said:


> Actually he might have been a blue belt!  Anyway, doesn't matter. Belt indications are about as indicative as Astrology signs. Silly system.



In their context, Kup and Dan grades are fine.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Gnarlie said:


> That says it all.
> 
> 
> 
> In their context, Kup and Dan grades are fine.



No. There are 3rd Dans who can't kick. Bas Rutten is one who happens to agree with me. He even commented on it in a broadcast.


----------



## Gnarlie

Laplace_demon said:


> No. There are 3rd Dans who can't kick. Bas Rutten is one who happens to agree with me. He even commented on it in a broadcast.



What 'no'?

That's this thing called "context" that you don't understand. Every individual is different and has different strengths and weaknesses. Acquaintance of mine can't kick for reasons I won't go into, but he would sure as hell be able to box your ears!


----------



## Laplace_demon

No to all belts. You said it yourself, every person is unique and that includes natural ability.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Bas Rutten is one who happens to agree with me. He even commented on it in a broadcast.



He mentioned you by name then? It may be pedantic but usually the form is to say _you_ agree with Bas Rutten rather than the other way because then you don't sound arrogant. It sets the tone for respectful discourse.
Next thing, you say Bas Rutten said so in a broadcast, please show that broadcast otherwise all we have is your post saying he said that. You should know that from your studies.


----------



## Transk53

Laplace_demon said:


> No to all belts. You said it yourself, every person is unique and that includes natural ability.



Natural ability to do what?


----------



## Gnarlie

There are incompetent but qualified people in every field you might care to name. Doesn't make qualifications invalid.


----------



## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> There are incompetent but qualified people in every field you might care to name. Doesn't make qualifications invalid.



There would have to be a percentage that makes them suspect.


----------



## Gnarlie

drop bear said:


> There would have to be a percentage that makes them suspect.


Agree, but I have met way more competent Kukkiwon certified than I have incompetent ones.


----------



## Orange Lightning

Transk53 said:


> I just see boxing as a intrinsic core ability. In the playing ground, a kid naturally strikes out with his fist, he will not go through a routine of forms. Just my personal take in simplistic terms.



Ever see a totally untrained person try to throw boxing punches? It resembles boxing in the sense that you know they're _trying_ to box, but the similarity stops there. Or at least, from my modest experience. It's even hard to get them to punch marginally well without a lot of practice and instruction.

I used to not understand why TMAs make people rehearse extremely simple movements over and over before they get to hit anything. Or even spar for that matter. After trying to teach a few people to punch, I understand it completely.

I can't rightly explain it, but I understand where you're coming from on this subject. But I agree with the rest here that it is no lesser or easier to learn than anything else. The sentiment that boxing is overly simplistic would be to misunderstand boxing.
I do have to wonder though, to what degree it could be instinctive or easier to learn for some people. Particularly from a certain region or heritage. Boxing has been around since....well, history.


----------



## Transk53

Orange Lightning said:


> I can't rightly explain it, but I understand where you're coming from on this subject. But I agree with the rest here that it is no lesser or easier to learn than anything else. *The sentiment that boxing is overly simplistic would be to misunderstand boxing.*
> I do have to wonder though, to what degree it could be instinctive or easier to learn for some people. Particularly from a certain region or heritage. Boxing has been around since....well, history.



This is why I have to be very careful with how I convey myself, I still usually get it wrong. Anyway, I did not mean boxing is simplistic, that's me trying to put a point across that a majority may understand. Obviously I cannot tell someone with a high degree of experience with martial arts what I mean, when I don't have that myself. Obviously I am still resolute with my belief and opinions thereafter, and so I should be. Obviously to another reader there will be times where something that I post seems contradictory, of course though that would be reading the diverse collection of thoughts and information on these forums, a good majority being that I don't have a bloody clue about a lot of it, but I still try to convert that into what I can understand. No doubt a lot of the time I am wrong. There are styles of martial arts written about around here that I have never even heard of like many novices. But it is what it is. I am what I am. I believe what I believe. 

Got no issues at all with boxing a martial art, or not being a martial art. I suppose to really know how far boxing as a whole goes back through known history, would be to compare with a martial art that goes back through known history. I had an argument with someone once regarding what the Romans did. A form of boxing, or just street fighting kind of thing. I still mean to delve deeper at some point.


----------



## Steve

Interesting note about boxing is that it's been around for a lot longer than many of the styles of MA we all currently train.  Off the top of my head (so forgive a few decades here and there), most MA styles were codified in around the early 20th century.  Judo goes back to the late 1800s.  And all are preceded by the Marquess of Queensbury rules for boxing, which came around, i think the mid-1800s.  There were boxing rules even well before that governing the bareknuckle bouts.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Transk53 said:


> This is why I have to be very careful with how I convey myself, I still usually get it wrong. Anyway, I did not mean boxing is simplistic, that's me trying to put a point across that a majority may understand. Obviously I cannot tell someone with a high degree of experience with martial arts what I mean, when I don't have that myself. Obviously I am still resolute with my belief and opinions thereafter, and so I should be. Obviously to another reader there will be times where something that I post seems contradictory, of course though that would be reading the diverse collection of thoughts and information on these forums, a good majority being that I don't have a bloody clue about a lot of it, but I still try to convert that into what I can understand. No doubt a lot of the time I am wrong. There are styles of martial arts written about around here that I have never even heard of like many novices. But it is what it is. I am what I am. I believe what I believe.
> 
> Got no issues at all with boxing a martial art, or not being a martial art. I suppose to really know how far boxing as a whole goes back through known history, would be to compare with a martial art that goes back through known history. I had an argument with someone once regarding what the Romans did. A form of boxing, or just street fighting kind of thing. I still mean to delve deeper at some point.



I think it depends on who's boxing. Mike Tyson fought technically and fast. George Foreman only clubbed, hammered and threw everything but the kitchen sink. Unlike martial arts in general, Western Boxing tends to be very generic as to technical skill level. In other martial arts, they at least try to approximate an ideal. But not boxers.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Laplace_demon said:


> Mike Tyson fought technically and fast. George Foreman only clubbed, hammered and threw everything but the kitchen sink



If you don't recognize that George Foreman had a level of technical skill far beyond that of most martial artists you will ever encounter, then you are definitely missing a lot.



Laplace_demon said:


> Unlike martial arts in general, Western Boxing tends to be very generic as to technical skill level.



I think your English is letting you down here - that sentence doesn't convey a comprehensible meaning. Could you rephrase to explain the point you are trying to make?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you don't recognize that George Foreman had a level of technical skill far beyond that of most martial artists you will ever encounter, then you are definitely missing a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> I think your English is letting you down here - that sentence doesn't convey a comprehensible meaning. Could you rephrase to explain the point you are trying to make?



Is that why Ali ridiculed Foremans punching? The guy rarely landed anything on him and was slow. There is nothing wrong with my English. Boxing is very generic in the context of punching proficiency. Some are truyl awful, while others are truly great. People always want to mention the very best in favour of Boxing, when it's far from how it looks overall.


----------



## Transk53

Laplace_demon said:


> Is that why Ali ridiculed Foremans punching? The guy rarely landed anything on him and was slow. There is nothing wrong with my English. *Boxing is very generic in the context of punching proficiency*. while others are truly great. People always want to mention the very best in favour of Boxing, when it's far from how it looks overall.



Do you mean that is why some boxers learn combinations with a very good jab philosophy, and the punchers go for the power?


----------



## Transk53

Laplace_demon said:


> Unlike martial arts in general, Western Boxing tends to be very generic as to technical skill level.



Surely that would apply to others as well generally. You have so many punches in boxing, so many strikes in karate, so many grapples in jiu jitsu. Is it all not generic after being formulated?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Transk53 said:


> Do you mean that is why some boxers learn combinations with a very good jab philosophy, and the punchers go for the power?



Has nothing to do with style. Tysons technical level was very high.



Transk53 said:


> Surely that would apply to others as well generally. You have so many punches in boxing, so many strikes in karate, so many grapples in jiu jitsu. Is it all not generic after being formulated?



Successful Karate/TKD fighters and high technical level correlate heavily. The same is not true for Boxing. Marciano was labelled a complete amateur in technical terms by Joe Lous, ahead of their fight, yet was a warrior and could still pack it in. Louis swore to give up boxing, or something to that effect if he didn't beat him.


----------



## Transk53

Laplace_demon said:


> Has nothing to do with style. Tysons technical level was very high.
> 
> 
> 
> Successful Karate/TKD fighters and high technical level correlate heavily. The same is not true for Boxing. Marciano was labelled a complete amateur in technical terms by Joe Lous, ahead of their fight, yet was a warrior and could still pack it in. Louis swore to give up boxing, or something to that effect if he didn't beat him.



All of their technical level is high. Marciano was blessed with a heavy punch, but he had to work his **** off to make the grade. Purists like purists.


----------



## Tez3

Laplace_demon said:


> Is that why Ali ridiculed Foremans punching?



That's called showmanship. Sells tickets.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tez3 said:


> That's called showmanship. Sells tickets.



That's not true. Ali went into great detail, even displayed it to the public. He was right too.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Laplace_demon said:


> Is that why Ali ridiculed Foremans punching?



Ali ridiculed Foreman as a form of psychological warfare and also to get press attention. Even granting that Ali was better the better fighter (at least on October 30 1974), that doesn't mean Foreman's technical level wasn't high. Ali was a better fighter than 99.99% of the strikers on the planet.



Laplace_demon said:


> There is nothing wrong with my English. Boxing is very generic in the context of punching proficiency. Some are truyl awful, while others are truly great.



That isn't at all what "generic" means. The phrase you are looking for is "highly variable."

Of course there is a huge range of skill among boxers, just as there is among karateka, judoka, or any other type of martial artist. Your mistake is pointing to boxers at the world champion level and saying that this one or that one is not technically proficient. The least technical world champion boxer ever is much more technical than most martial artists will ever be. You may not have the background to recognize what they are doing technically. but the skill set is there.


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Interesting note about boxing is that it's been around for a lot longer than many of the styles of MA we all currently train.  Off the top of my head (so forgive a few decades here and there), most MA styles were codified in around the early 20th century.  Judo goes back to the late 1800s.  And all are preceded by the Marquess of Queensbury rules for boxing, which came around, i think the mid-1800s.  There were boxing rules even well before that governing the bareknuckle bouts.



Reputedly the Romans boxed. Some of the stuff I have read would say that roundhouse type punches, or swingers whatever you want call it were used, but with accuracy from the arm. However the Legionary would use dirty tricks like strike the adams apple. Stands to reason to me that a straight punch would be among so many soldiers, thugs and plebs alike.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tony Dismukes said:


> Ali ridiculed Foreman as a form of psychological warfare and also to get press attention. Even granting that Ali was better the better fighter (at least on October 30 1974), that doesn't mean Foreman's technical level wasn't high. Ali was a better fighter than 99.99% of the strikers on the planet.
> 
> Of course there is a huge range of skill among boxers, just as there is among karateka, judoka, or any other type of martial artist. Your mistake is pointing to boxers at the world champion level and saying that this one or that one is not technically proficient. The least technical world champion boxer ever is much more technical than most martial artists will ever be. You may not have the background to recognize what they are doing technically. but the skill set is there.



To say that the worst high level boxer is better than a non boxer, is really not saying much at all. Of course I agree, but that doesn't mean that they are quote "Good". 

Ali ridiculed Foreman on a technical level, mind you. And the match showed that Foreman did not land much significant blows.


----------



## Orange Lightning

Transk53 said:


> This is why I have to be very careful with how I convey myself, I still usually get it wrong. Anyway, I did not mean boxing is simplistic, that's me trying to put a point across that a majority may understand. Obviously I cannot tell someone with a high degree of experience with martial arts what I mean, when I don't have that myself. Obviously I am still resolute with my belief and opinions thereafter, and so I should be. Obviously to another reader there will be times where something that I post seems contradictory, of course though that would be reading the diverse collection of thoughts and information on these forums, a good majority being that I don't have a bloody clue about a lot of it, but I still try to convert that into what I can understand. No doubt a lot of the time I am wrong. There are styles of martial arts written about around here that I have never even heard of like many novices. But it is what it is. I am what I am. I believe what I believe.
> 
> Got no issues at all with boxing a martial art, or not being a martial art. I suppose to really know how far boxing as a whole goes back through known history, would be to compare with a martial art that goes back through known history. I had an argument with someone once regarding what the Romans did. A form of boxing, or just street fighting kind of thing. I still mean to delve deeper at some point.



I totally understand. I misconvey myself all the time. By all means, if you have an opinion of any kind, regardless if you think it's wrong or not, I think it can do one good to post it here. Either get corrected or confirmed. Either way, get information discussed at a higher level than you could have found alone. 

Lets ask Wikipedia!

"The earliest known depiction of boxing comes from a Sumerian relief from the 3rd millennium BC.[1] Later depictions from the 2nd millennium BC are found in reliefs from the Mesopotamian nations of Assyria and Babylonia, and in Hittite art from Asia Minor. The earliest evidence for fist fighting with any kind of gloves can be found on Minoan Crete (c. 1500–900 BC), and on Sardinia, if we consider the boxing statues of Prama mountains (c. 2000–1000 BC).[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing#Early_history


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Laplace_demon said:


> To say that the worst high level boxer is better than a non boxer, is really not saying much at all. Of course I agree, but that doesn't mean that they are quote "Good".



My exact phrasing was: "_The least technical world champion boxer ever is much more technical than most martial artists will ever be_." That means more technical than most boxers, most karateka, most TKD practitioners, and most Kung Fu exponents. I think that would indeed qualify them as being "good."



Laplace_demon said:


> Ali ridiculed Foreman on a technical level, mind you. And the match showed that Foreman did not land much significant blows.



Well it's a good thing that Foreman's legacy as a boxer doesn't rest on his match with Ali. Foreman's accomplishments include:

Olympic gold medalist
Professional record of 76-5, with 68 of his wins by knockout.
A KO victory over Ken Norton, who beat Ali once and took him to a split decision on the rematch.
2x world champion
The oldest heavyweight world champion ever. (At the time he was the oldest world champion in any weight class, but Bernard Hopkins has since taken that distinction.)

Trust me - there's a lot of technique that went into those achievements.


----------



## Transk53

Orange Lightning said:


> I totally understand. I misconvey myself all the time. By all means, if you have an opinion of any kind, regardless if you think it's wrong or not, I think it can do one good to post it here. Either get corrected or confirmed. Either way, get information discussed at a higher level than you could have found alone.
> 
> Lets ask Wikipedia!
> 
> "The earliest known depiction of boxing comes from a Sumerian relief from the 3rd millennium BC.[1] Later depictions from the 2nd millennium BC are found in reliefs from the Mesopotamian nations of Assyria and Babylonia, and in Hittite art from Asia Minor. The earliest evidence for fist fighting with any kind of gloves can be found on Minoan Crete (c. 1500–900 BC), and on Sardinia, if we consider the boxing statues of Prama mountains (c. 2000–1000 BC).[1]"
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing#Early_history



Very interesting. Reliefs, yes I thinking of looking for some Roman ones but did not find too much. And of course they tend to be romanticized. I will have a look at that linkage tonight at home


----------



## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> I think it depends on who's boxing. Mike Tyson fought technically and fast. George Foreman only clubbed, hammered and threw everything but the kitchen sink. Unlike martial arts in general, Western Boxing tends to be very generic as to technical skill level. In other martial arts, they at least try to approximate an ideal. But not boxers.



It is judged on function and not form.


----------



## Laplace_demon

drop bear said:


> It is judged on function and not form.



That's my point. TMA is not like that to the same degree.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

drop bear said:


> It is judged on function and not form.





Laplace_demon said:


> That's my point. TMA is not like that to the same degree.



Function is a result of technique.


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tony Dismukes said:


> Function is a result of technique.



Tell that to Rocky Marciano. You can play semantic tricks all you like. If you define what works as great technique, then we aren't talking about technique in the normal sense anymore.


----------



## Transk53

Orange Lightning said:


> I totally understand. I misconvey myself all the time. By all means, if you have an opinion of any kind, regardless if you think it's wrong or not, I think it can do one good to post it here. Either get corrected or confirmed. Either way, get information discussed at a higher level than you could have found alone.
> 
> Lets ask Wikipedia!
> 
> "The earliest known depiction of boxing comes from a Sumerian relief from the 3rd millennium BC.[1] Later depictions from the 2nd millennium BC are found in reliefs from the Mesopotamian nations of Assyria and Babylonia, and in Hittite art from Asia Minor. The earliest evidence for fist fighting with any kind of gloves can be found on Minoan Crete (c. 1500–900 BC), and on Sardinia, if we consider the boxing statues of Prama mountains (c. 2000–1000 BC).[1]"
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing#Early_history




This Sir, is just brilliant. You know what, I searched Wiki and this never came back. The murals are very compelling. Perhaps now I was right that despite some very good fiction stories, that some Legionaries, would have been hit and miss, just completely lethal killing machines. I have tried to imagine the mind set and feeling of that, but that was just too scary even for me. Anyway pretty sure one of those boxers would have been bird food.


----------



## Transk53

Laplace_demon said:


> Tell that to Rocky Marciano. You can play semantic tricks all you like. If you define what works as great technique, then we aren't talking about technique in the normal sense anymore.



No, he still had function. If it would have been just technique, he would got have knocked thinking about how they the hell to throw a functional punch


----------



## Laplace_demon

Transk53 said:


> No, he still had function. If it would have been just technique, he would got have knocked thinking about how they the hell to throw a functional punch



And before he was Marciano the world champion, his way of doing it would have most likely been deemed dubious.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Laplace_demon said:


> Tell that to Rocky Marciano. You can play semantic tricks all you like. If you define what works as great technique, then we aren't talking about technique in the normal sense anymore.


Well, _you_ don't seem to be talking about technique in the normal sense, that's certainly true.

When I talk about technique in this context, I am talking about a functional methodology for landing damaging strikes against a tough, skilled opponent while minimizing the damage one takes in return without relying on superior physical attributes such as size or strength. This includes, but is not limited to: footwork, timing, accuracy, efficiency, body dynamics, and ring savvy.

How are _you_ defining technique?


----------



## Transk53

Laplace_demon said:


> And before he was Marciano the world champion, his way of doing it would have most likely been deemed dubious.



Why?


----------



## elder999

Laplace_demon said:


> And before he was Marciano the world champion, his way of doing it would have most likely been deemed dubious.


 How does Marciano's style differ from Jack Dempsey's? They were both in fighters, and Marciano's particular type was necessitated by his shorter reach, so.........


----------



## Laplace_demon

The Jack Dempsey fights looked attrocious from my perspective. When did I ever say he was a role model?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Laplace_demon said:


> The Jack Dempsey fights looked attrocious from my perspective. When did I ever say he was a role model?


 You said that Marciano's way of doing things would have been considered dubious before he became world champion. Dempsey was world champion decades prior to Marciano, using the same sort of approach. Who exactly are you saying would have considered the style dubious when it had proven success?


----------



## Laplace_demon

Tony Dismukes said:


> You said that Marciano's way of doing things would have been considered dubious before he became world champion. Dempsey was world champion decades prior to Marciano, using the same sort of approach. Who exactly are you saying would have considered the style dubious when it had proven success?



No, no. Marciano in modern times.


----------



## elder999

Laplace_demon said:


> No, no. Marciano in modern times.


 
Once again....





Unless you're saying that Marciano would be "dubious" in the HW division today?

In which case, I dunno...._Joe Frazier?Aaron Pryor?Mike Tyson? *Gennady Golovkin???*_


----------



## Laplace_demon

I am saying you only praise guys like Marciano *after the fact*. It worked for him. At least that's my contention. His opponents were past their prime or mediocre.


----------



## elder999

Laplace_demon said:


> I am saying you only praise guys like Marciano *after the fact*. It worked for him. At least that's my contention. His opponents were past their prime or mediocre.


While it's true that he never faced "quality" opponents, and that he had a wild, primitive swinging style (he missed *a lot*, and better opponents might have capitalized on it) he went undefeated for 49 fights, was hugely popular, and is one of the greatest heavyweights in history by virtue of those things-not to mention making good fights.

Pure defensive boxing, ala Mayweather, does not make for great fights, as evidenced by....well, all of his fights....


----------



## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> That's my point. TMA is not like that to the same degree.



Tma should be judged on function and not form if fighting is considered not a beauty contest.


----------



## Laplace_demon

elder999 said:


> While it's true that he never faced "quality" opponents, and that he had a wild, primitive swinging style (he missed *a lot*, and better opponents might have capitalized on it) he went undefeated for 49 fights, was hugely popular, and is one of the greatest heavyweights in history by virtue of those things-not to mention making good fights.
> 
> Pure defensive boxing, ala Mayweather, does not make for great fights, as evidenced by....well, all of his fights....



Mayweather is a master class and does not get hit. Anybody complaining about that needs to seriously think things over. Should he adopt his style and lose, simply for the publics sake??!

Intelligent fighters should be praised.


----------



## Laplace_demon

drop bear said:


> Tma should be judged on function and not form if fighting is considered not a beauty contest.



That's because you wrongly assume you can't have both function and form at the same time.


----------



## elder999

Laplace_demon said:


> Mayweather is a master class and does not get hit. Anybody complaining about that needs to seriously think things over. Should he adopt his style and lose, simply for the publics sake??!
> 
> Intelligent fighters should be praised.


 
He's really good at what he does-none better. That said, he should be praised, if you haven't fallen asleep before the 12th round....


----------



## Laplace_demon

elder999 said:


> He's really good at what he does-none better. That said, he should be praised, if you haven't fallen asleep before the 12th round....



I assume you said the same thing about Machida then?  Just asking for a bit of consistency.


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## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> That's because you wrongly assume you can't have both function and form at the same time.



I would suggest form is a reflection of function.


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## drop bear

Laplace_demon said:


> I assume you said the same thing about Machida then?  Just asking for a bit of consistency.



Mohamed Ali was a counter boxer.


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## elder999

Laplace_demon said:


> I assume you said the same thing about Machida then?  Just asking for a bit of consistency.


 Don't recall ever saying *anything* about Machida.


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## Laplace_demon

elder999 said:


> Don't recall ever saying *anything* about Machida.



I am asking if you did. If not, why? Was he anymore entertaining overall. Some of his fights in his prime were often quite strategical and many people complained. I liked him actually. And I like Mayweather too.


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## elder999

Laplace_demon said:


> I am asking if you did. If not, why? Was he anymore entertaining overall. Some of his fights in his prime were often quite strategical and many people complained. I liked him actually. And I like Mayweather too.


 I like Machida. The outcome for a "strategic" MMA fight is more likely to be different from boxing, in that there's more potential for the fight to be* finished*, rather than going to the judges.


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## Transk53

elder999 said:


> Once again....
> View attachment 19303
> 
> Unless you're saying that Marciano would be "dubious" in the HW division today?
> 
> In which case, I dunno...._Joe Frazier?Aaron Pryor?Mike Tyson? *Gennady Golovkin???*_




Yes the latter would be dubious, unless he has been on extreme weight gain supplements.


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## elder999

Transk53 said:


> Yes the latter would be dubious, unless he has been on extreme weight gain supplements.


Dubious as a "heavyweight," certainly, but his (very exciting and successful) fighting style is very much that of an in-fighter....


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## Transk53

elder999 said:


> Dubious as a "heavyweight," certainly, but his (very exciting and successful) fighting style is very much that of an in-fighter....



Oh yeah for sure. The art of shifting not dead. I would really like see a bout live if he ever fought in the UK.


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## Laplace_demon

Muhammad Ali was past his prime when George Foreman got nothing and was tired after what, 2 rounds??? I know he disliked the climate where they fought, but still, he didn't accomplish anything against Ali.


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## Laplace_demon

Btw, I go crazy over Alis pressconferences and trash talking. He's hilarious. I like that more about him than his actual fighting.


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## Buka

Boxing is a specialized style of fighting. It's training is often not pretty and certainly not user friendly, not even a little bit. It's competitive aspect raises the level even more so. The opinions of boxing, and boxers for that matter, vary, from the casual fan, to the serious fan, to the fighters in other arts, and to the people who actually box. I like to listen to the opinions of people who box. At least when it comes to boxing. 

As a guy who grew up as a fan of boxing as a wee lad, and grew up as a karate fighter, I had more than a pretty good idea about boxing - and then I boxed. I think it's like watching someone swim before you learned to swim.....you kind of know how the arm movement goes, and what the legs do.

Then there's that God damn water.


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## Laplace_demon

Buka said:


> Boxing is a specialized style of fighting. It's training is often not pretty and certainly not user friendly, not even a little bit. It's competitive aspect raises the level even more so. The opinions of boxing, and boxers for that matter, vary, from the casual fan, to the serious fan, to the fighters in other arts, and to the people who actually box. I like to listen to the opinions of people who box. At least when it comes to boxing.
> 
> As a guy who grew up as a fan of boxing as a wee lad, and grew up as a karate fighter, I had more than a pretty good idea about boxing - and then I boxed. I think it's like watching someone swim before you learned to swim.....you kind of know how the arm movement goes, and what the legs do.
> 
> Then there's that God damn water.



Nice. Are you trying to convey that it made you more humble, when you actually boxed?  How is that any different though from a boxer thrown into point fighting Karate?


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