# Neo-Ninja Training Camp



## Bester (Mar 1, 2005)

*Neo-Ninja Training Camp*
April 1-3, 2005
At the HoJo on Route 5 in FlimFlam, Colerado.

3 days of Fun Fun Fun learning how to be Real Ultimate Ninjas!

Join us for our 3rd annual Ninja Convention and Promotion Extravaganza!

We will have real live ninja masters like you see in movies and tv to train you in the ancient and deadly arts of tv ninja-hood!

Special Guest Instructors:
- The Original Himself *Master Sho Kosugi*
Sho Kosugi?s place in film history is assured and his name will forever be synonymous with the word Ninja. He will be teaching a beginners class on smoke bomb usage.  

- The White Ranger, Jason David Frank
It's Morphing Time once again with the Original White Ranger! Master Franks will be teaching Advanced MegaZord Handling, a definite skill for todays Neo-Ninja.

- Kira Reed! Star of the True-Life Docu-Drama Cheerleader Ninjas!
TnA can Kick some A!  

*Special Guest Appearance by Master Ashida Kim, the original American Ninja himself.  A master of disguise, you'll have to look hard.*

We will have senior students of Super Sensei Rick "Morphing" Tew on hand to demonstrate Advanced BackYard Training techniques like "falling off garage", "Im invisible, really" and the ever popular "writeacheck-do". They will be doing belt promotions all weekend long, so bring your VCR's so you can study hard!

Ninja GrandMaster Dux will unfortunately not be joining us due to his unfortunate accident involving that Karate Kid that was in the news recently. We wish him a speedy recovery.

Visit our website for full details: ilikebeingamovieninjanerd.com

All weekend members will receive a complimentary belt promotion just for registering! 

Don't have a school?  Don't Worry!  The World Soke-Doke Council will be on hand again with a special show-only art registration! You too can be a real Soke of your very own art!  Join the elite (who paid upwards of $25 bucks) for this universally recognized statement of your skill!


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## Bester (Mar 2, 2005)

*New Dealer Announced:*

Ninjas R Us.  

*New Guest: *

Master Shreader will be on hand signing his new book "Ninja Turtles - My Plan to Rule the World!"

We will also be having a raffle for a region-free dvd player.  Some lucky Ninja will be able to really advance his or her training with this.  The package includes the DVD player, and the complete autographed Sho Kashugi Ninja Collection!  Only the first 100 registrants are eligible, so sign up now!


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## Bujingodai (Mar 3, 2005)

Is the actual way you view every neo?
The neos are not the only people that can be critisized.

Actually there is a pretty good indie seminar coming up in April. However there will be no movie Ninja at this one, sorry.


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## Bester (Mar 3, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Is the actual way you view every neo?


Yes, at least 99% of those I've encountered on forums.



> The neos are not the only people that can be critisized.


True



> Actually there is a pretty good indie seminar coming up in April. However there will be no movie Ninja at this one, sorry.


Mr. Tew will probably be very disappointed.


American Ninjutsu is like Canadian Kung Fu and Mexican Krav Maga.
A false name for a made up fart used to market a substandard system to simpletons who know no better. If it's "John Jones Self Defence System" call it that.  Don't call it "American Realistic Karate" or "Canadian Hung Gar".

Neo-Nitwits need to realize that movie tricks DO NOT WORK in reality.  There are no stuntmen to take the bump for you. You can't toss a smoke bomb and go poof. Matrix Moves only work when you have wires on you. You can't take 24 chair shots to the head and function normally.  People need to know who their instructors are, and what their qualifications are, and stop being fooled by flashy marketing, fancy titles and misleading terms.

Neo training, hell, Non-TMA training is for fast food freaks who lack the stones and "suck it up"itness to make the grade in a real school with a real tradition. These are the "quick fix" fools who think a black belt and a title make them something special.  Sorry folks.  A black belt means nothing. It doesn't make you anything special.  It's what is inside that counts, the heart and skill from working perfected techniques and logical combinations from an experienced instructor.  Not some teenage wunder-shmuck who read some books and played power ranger in his back yard.

So, until one of these Neo-NitWits can show me a serious, world renouned and respected Neo, I'll keep taking shots at them.  It's fun, it breaks up the day, and all more importantly, it's easy as they lack the ability to get on the floor and do anything about it.  Well..unless we do it ECW style.  Then maybe that VCR teacher of theirs will be a useful tool.  LOL

Neo-Training is like watching the South Park episode where Cartman thought he had the power of invisiblity.  Walking around nude saying "you cant see me" is just not gonna work.

I'll take real training, from real schools, with experienced instructors with a legitimate lineage, and I'll leave the books and videos for my entertainment time.

I like this forum because the kids aren't tolerated much.  There is another forum out there for neos, where you can exchange tips and tricks for working the remote control, places to get masks, Xbox tricks and panty raid techniques.  I'll stay here, and rub elbows (electronically) with folks who learn the real deal, and I'll keep slapping the stupids until I can't slap no mo.


*Poot* *Belch* *Buuuuuurp*
In a cloud of gas, I varnish!


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## Bester (Mar 3, 2005)

NEW!

Just announced: Sparring Room!

For the first time, we will have a sparring room available to work on techniques!
Seating is limited, so bring your X-Boxes!

This is "real" training at it's rawest folks.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 3, 2005)

Well, I wouldn't be hard pressed to chat with you in a mature manner due to the way you present yourself.
I'm sorry if you see the majority of Neos, Indies as being movie maniac martial artists. I'm sorry you have never had one plant you on your ***. Have you ever checked it out for yourself? Not to switch but to have an educated opinon rather than the cool 15 yr old dribble that has spewed out of your mouth.
Do you think that because the Kan's whom, I have no issue with as that is where I am from is without their issues? Their issues at some points are laughable, that includes the skill of their legitamite instructors. Today, it guarentees nothing.
Most of the indies are ex kan who left because of reasons such as skill and politics.
You may be suprised that the majority of the indies can't stand people lilke Kim as we always get batched in with them.
As for Tew, well he's skilled at something you have to be impressed with some of his ability.
I have on the other hand made it a point to meet these schools and see for myself what they offer. I can say to you the majority of them are not learning to disappear into walls or vie for the best movie ninja tricks. There are some real losers out there, however there are some incredbile practitioners out there as well whom I wish you would say this directly to them.
Where you located Alfred? If so I'd like to pay for your admisson and expenses to the upcoming seminar, if you are interested in a mature, experienced opinion. I am sorry if I came across as rude about this however your response seemed to be one of a teenager who gets off on this.
Because it's fun and breaks up your day


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## Bester (Mar 3, 2005)

I did not target Indies.

I said Neos.

There is a difference.

Yes, I've been planted a few times. Never once by a smoke bomber though.  By a Buj guy, name escapes me though.  Was several years back at a seminar in Buffalo NY. (Folks are there, grew up there, visit from time to time)

I never said the Kans didn't have issues.  They have many.  But legitimacy is not one of them.

I see Kim and Tew as the same.  Frauds out to make a buck by misusing a system name. I could care less how good his "bung pu" is.  He's still a spamming ******* who is a fraud.

As to this particular thread, and me, I believe my past postings will speak for themselves.  This one is a parody.  Anyone who can't see that, well, maybe they should stop taking themselves so seriously.  That, or find some real training that doesn't involve cheat codes.

I'm currently in Buffalo.  Finishing up a project and will be on the road again shortly. I will check my calendar and if things line up let you know.  The offer is appreciated. I enjoy real training, though my schedule as of late has left little time for such.

Peace.


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## Jeff Boler (Mar 3, 2005)

David,

"Bester" forgot to mention the Bujinkan demonstration that takes place during this event, in which they take full kicks to the groin with their Juko Kai cohorts under the "Combat Ki" umbrella..  Guaranteed to dazzle you as Bujinkan / Juko Kai sponsored Shidoshi stand perfectly still, calm, and relaxed, as some NFL Field Goal Kickers jams them in the jimmy's....

Last group on Earth that she poking fun at any other type of martial artists is the members of the Bujinkan.



> I never said the Kans didn't have issues. They have many. But legitimacy is not one of them.



Depends on your definition of "legitimate."


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 3, 2005)

"jams them in the jimmy's"

Iron Wang training? :rofl:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 3, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> David,
> 
> "Bester" forgot to mention the Bujinkan demonstration that takes place during this event, in which they take full kicks to the groin with their Juko Kai cohorts under the "Combat Ki" umbrella.. Guaranteed to dazzle you as Bujinkan / Juko Kai sponsored Shidoshi stand perfectly still, calm, and relaxed, as some NFL Field Goal Kickers jams them in the jimmy's....


Not Bujinkan sponsored. Brotherhood sponsored.


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## Kreth (Mar 3, 2005)

I see Don Cunningham let his attack poodle out to play... 

Jeff


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## Bujingodai (Mar 3, 2005)

OK well as a rule, Neo is just a bad name for Indie, of which I don't care either suits.
I wouldn't put Kim and Tew in the same spot, only due to the fact that I have seen both move, on video anyway. Whereas Tew has some actual body skills, Kim is an embarrassment.
I am glad you will look at the dates. And as for it being a jokle post, yes I got that but I guess it was more the target of it. Of which you have cleared.
As for the Kans legitamacy, I would agree for what I know. Yes they are the legit school.
However that means little when even the Soke says there is 50% good and 50% bad, whos to say you may be involved with the 50% bad. In which case does the paper history mean anything at all.
Personally for me, not it didn't. I have seen indies with skills obviously far surpassing many of the legit instructors I have met as well.
I am not about insulting the Kan, more just asking people to keep an open mind for why some schools exist in the 1st place and the valitdity at all.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 3, 2005)

Brotherhood is still Bujinkan. A set of liscenced teachers and the highest ranked Bujinkan in Canada. 
Though a caveat I know there is some shakeups there. So obviuously something isn't right.
I trust Mike Pimblett Shidoshi and he left.


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## Jeff Boler (Mar 3, 2005)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I see Don Cunningham let his attack poodle out to play...
> 
> Jeff



Bark...Bark.

I find it down right funny that Bujinkan members take so much enjoyment by bashing other Ninpo groups, yet, they are probably filled with more politics than any other martial arts organization.

Legitimate?  In your mind, maybe.  Historically?  There's no proof of that.  In self defense?  That's debatable as well.  Hypocritical?  You bet.  Up to the point that one popular (well, it used to be popular) forum has completely blocked all discussion concerning the Bujinkan and links to Juko Kai.  Oh I know, there is no such links.

Whatever.  Did Hatsumi issues an honorary rank?  Yep.  Did Sach then earn a legitimate rank.  Yep.

Like it or not, he's connected.  Like it or not, you are no better than those claiming to be Neo.


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## KyleShort (Mar 3, 2005)

Bester please give it a rest.  I can't stand this crap as much as you, but it seems like its all anyone talks about on these forums lately.

Let the pseudo-ninjutsu groups go on with themlseves...just ignore it.

I wish people would get back to constructive conversation...there is so much good info to exchange.


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## Bester (Mar 3, 2005)

I am not a member of any of the *Kans.  While I like the ideas, the actions of a few of their members have left me just as leary as Mr. Tews students and own actions.

Attack Poodle?  Hopefully not me.  My hair is not that Curley. Nuck Nuck Nuck.

Mr. Short, I cannot agree more.  I will as you asked and "Let it Rest".
Though I do reserve the right to kick the pompous as Cartman would say "Squar in da nutz". 

Peace.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 3, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Brotherhood is still Bujinkan. A set of liscenced teachers and the highest ranked Bujinkan in Canada.
> Though a caveat I know there is some shakeups there. So obviuously something isn't right.
> I trust Mike Pimblett Shidoshi and he left.


As far as I know, Hatsumi sensei has never stated that he demands that the Bujinkan as a whole supports the Juko Kai in any way. If he had, I don't think I'd be the only one to start doing some serious thinking about my membership in the Bujinkan...


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## Cryozombie (Mar 3, 2005)

Lets everyone stop for a second.

This thread was started by a Non-Bujinkan practitioner.

He did not, in his initail post, state this was an endorsement of the Bujinkan, in fact, I dont see it attacking the Genbukan, I dont See it attacking the Jinekan, I dont see it attacking Toshindo, I dont see it attacking Legitimate indies like Ken Harding.

What It was, was a play on the SPAM Rick Tew placed on this board where he stated you could come learn to be a "Movie Ninja" which, I am sorry to say, if even a "Legitimate" instructor said (and by legitimate, lets call that anyone who didnt learn their skills by watching ninja flicks and practicing kicks and punches and rolls in their backyard without supervision) would generate the same kind of comments.

Why that became an open invitation to attack the Bujinkan is beyond me... Much like an employee from Wal Mart, attacking McDonalds and having McDonalds supporters attack Burger King in return.

Yeah, THAT makes sense.


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## Kreth (Mar 3, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Legitimate?  In your mind, maybe.


Really? Are you trying to claim that the Bujinkan has no links to Japan?  





> Historically?  There's no proof of that.


You might want to do your homework a bit better. I'm sure Don Roley or someone else can fill you in on the details as to which documentation to look at.


> In self defense?  That's debatable as well.





> Whatever.  Did Hatsumi issues an honorary rank?  Yep.  Did Sach then earn a legitimate rank.  Yep.


The honorary rank was revoked, and Sacharnoski was never licensed as a Shidoshi.


> Like it or not, he's connected.


Sacharnoski is connected with one fringe portion of the Bujinkan, not the Bujinkan as a whole.

Jeff


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## Don Roley (Mar 4, 2005)

Kreth said:
			
		

> You might want to do your homework a bit better. I'm sure Don Roley or someone else can fill you in on the details as to which documentation to look at.



Well, you might want to start with the two books by independent historian Koyama Ryutaro. I keep mentioning his work and the stuff that he has found to back up some of the story of the Togakure ryu, but no one on line seems to want to deal with it when they attack the Bujinkan.

And of course, as Technopunk has pointed out, this thread has been diverted from its original topic to the Bujinkan. I guess is is easier to divert attention than to try to argue for the neos that Gibb hangs out with on their own merit.

Coming into this debate late, I have to point out that the guys that Bester is poking fun at and Gibb is trying to go to bat for either fall into the fraud or incompetent catagory- or both.

It is not about history when I call someone a fraud. It is not really about something that happened two centuries ago. I am talking about the fact that members of groups that Dave belongs to make claims of being taught in Japanese traditions by Japanese teachers but cannot show even the slightest (independent) proof to back it up. They are unknown in Japan. This is not a matter of history as I said. You do not need any knowledge of history to look at the certificates Hatsumi got from Takamatsu, the interview Takamatsu did with Tokyo Sports News where he names Hatsumi as his succesor and the full DVD of scenes of them training together and then look at the fact that Yo Sato, Mark Grove, etc can't show anything to know the neos are lying.

Oh yeah, and when this is pointed out someone always has to say that they may not have paperwork but they are really bad dudes that will "drop you on your ***." And I actually believe that Gibb _with the experience he has_ believes them to be skilled. After all, if you take the typical person off the street and show them Ashida Kim stuff they may believe he knows his stuff. But if you hang out with the experienced martial artists and survivors of the street I do, you might find a different opinion.

Let me use myself as a start to explain why I (and many others) hold the neos in contempt even if they don't claim to be the 45th grandmaster of a Babylonian ninjutsu tradition. I do not consider myself a master of the martial arts, and I am sure many would agree with me. :wink1: I do not teach martial arts, much less set myself up as a grandmaster of my own style. And yeah, a lot of people say that they never called themselves grandmasters. But if you do your own thing and people follow your curriculum with no authority above you, then all I can say is that if it looks like  Dux and quacks like a Dux.....

I started training regularly in a Bujinkan dojo in the late 80s. My teacher was.... not the best. But rather than do like Dave Gibb and set myself up as a teacher of my own style, I came to Japan. There are no better teachers of the art than the Japanese shihan, and of course Hatsumi. I have been living here for about a decade now, going to class every chance I get with my Japanese teacher and occasionally with other teachers.

Ok. Now of all the guys who identify themselves as "neo ninjutsu" or "indies" can you show me even _one_ who has bothered to seek out the best instruction in ninjutsu and train like I have under them? They want to start their own styles of ninjutsu because they supposably love the art. But I do not see the devotion to seek out the best instruction they can in the art before they start grading others in their own style.

Oh, and let us not forget the time. Can you show me one neo who has gone _on a weekly basis_ to an instructor of ninjutsu _for at least a decade_ before they decided they knew enough to be the head of their art? And be ready to prove it. I have seen more 18 year olds that have claimed to have been taught since age three by some guy they can't prove ever existed than I have honest car salesmen. I have seen people talk about their experience in the martial arts spanning 20 years while failing to mention that 19.5 of that was as the head teacher in their own style. I have seen people talk about how they started their experience in ninjutsu in a certain year, but fail to mention that it was a single seminar with Stephen Hayes and they never bothered to go to anything else in the years since.

Leaving aside all the experince I have had prior to Japan and in other arts I have about a decade of going to the best teachers on the planet on a weekly basis and still do not think that I have even begun to reach the full potential this art has to teach me. I find new things out ever week. I still think of my journy in this art in its early stages.

So how the heck should I think about someone with even less experience and drive than that who decides that he is qualified to set himself up as the head of his own style?


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## Bujingodai (Mar 4, 2005)

Your good at this Don, and you know what as far I knew we had buried our hatchet. I also did not set up my own style. I have a teacher....and also have a Bujinkan teacher.
I would state that thought I am not an authority, my opinion would hopefully be better than the average laman. I had stated that Kim looked pretty bad. But you are right it is my opinion, and I said that much.
My arguement was more that not all Indies or Neos whatever are movie Ninja, that most of us are not interested in that.
Just not to lump as all in the same boat.
I'm not attacking the kan, just going tit for tat. If being a Bujinkan makes you legit than great, I have seen some pretty pathetic excuses for legit people then. So being a fake is OK for me, I will live with it. I have found less backstabbing and politics and more training in the indie world.
I have sought out some good instruction. So I am one then Don. Both indie and Kan.
I'm not here to argue, I am hardly the offender of outrageous claims.
As for the Juko Kai, well you are right that they are not pushed by the most of the Kan, but it is the same arguement, say I was a  member of that dojo...in the Kan by a liscenced by hatsumi teacher, a high ranking quality legit school I'd still be an outcast so it means little to me anymore.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 4, 2005)

Unless you at one time or another experienced a training session that was suddenly interrupted by the instructor ordering you all to sit down in a little ring and discuss politics, I find that to be a very poor excuse for not being able to train.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 4, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> . If being a Bujinkan makes you legit than great, I have seen some pretty pathetic excuses for legit people then.


 Here is my Challenge for you.

 Find me a style of martial arts.  I don't particularly care which style.  Any style.

 That does not have some "less than skilled" practitioners.

 Why?  Because that is a STUPID argument to use against the 'Kan... yet its the #1 thing I have seen brought up, that, and the politics. 

 Oh yeah.  The Politics.  Theres challenge #2.  Find me an art, with an organization behind it, that has NO politics.

 And Bujingaodi, here is MY only beef with the "indies"... I do believe there are Legit indies.  Ive said it before... I cited some earlier.  My beef comes when you have guys who learn, I dunno, we'll say anything, maybe Karate and Jui Jitsu, and then go, "I am a Ninja master of Karajui jutsu ninjutsu, my secret dream of meeting a Demon on a waterfall imparted the ancient ninja wisdom that was taught to me by my secret uncle whom no record of exsits and he died so do not ask about him" The guy could the TOP fighter on the planet, and I could learn to be a total bad *** from him, but why did he choose to make up a lame *** story and call himself "ninja"? 

 Why not just teach what he knows, is good at, and leave it at that?  You can bake an apple pie, Call it a Chocolate cake, but people who know chocolate cake will know its nothing more than an apple pie... even if its the best damn pie on the planet, and even if their chocolate cake isnt as good as someone elses.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 4, 2005)

Techno I agree with you. If you study Karate and Kung Fu and hybrid it don't call it Ninjutsu. There are many schools I have come across that do just that, and I have no relation to them after the fact.

My arguement was just for an arguement. Legitamacy gets argued I am just saying that OK so you are more legit with a longer paper trail...sometimes that doesn't mean everything.  Though it is a major point. 

Now Nimravus the words
I find that to be a very poor excuse for not being able to train.

I am sorry that I have not justified, nor have some others...However I think personally at the end of the day I have to answer to me....so I am fine with it. I tried my best and still do train thank you. I also still train with legit instructors as well. But I won't lose any sleep knowing that you think I am not justified. If you are happy with what you have, good for you.

Techno, agreed also there are politics everywhere I just found that at least in my fairly large geographic neck of the woods........which includes some of the brotherhood politics and backstabbing a tad more than the average.


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## Don Roley (Mar 4, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> My arguement was just for an arguement. Legitamacy gets argued I am just saying that OK so you are more legit with a longer paper trail...sometimes that doesn't mean everything.  Though it is a major point.



You are trying to sweep under the rug the fact that there are bald faced liars and con men who are members of the same "neo ninja" groups you are. It is not about who has the better paper trail. It is about people lying through their teeth. I would never train with or be a member of an orginization that allowed people like "Yo Sato", David D'antonio, Konigun, Nindo-ryu, etc because THEY LIE ABOUT IMPORTANT THINGS. You go to the head of any of those arts I mentioned and ask him for proof of all his claims. You won't get it. And you have associated yourself with these and more _despite_ knowing that they made claims and can't back them up.

And as for your claim, "I also did not set up my own style." What is "Bujin Godai"? You have students training under you and you are not a member of the Bujinkan shidoshikai the last time I checked. You were just barely into being a black belt the last time I noticed, and you seem to have set up your Bujin Godai system before even that.

Maybe not all neo ninja groups are the same, but I have yet to see anyone who associates themself as a neo ninjutsu type that does not fall into the two catagories I have listed. They are either a liar, or they set themselves up as a grandmaster way before they know what he hell they are doing.

And the worst always try to attack other orginizations like the Bujinkan when their probelms are center stage.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 5, 2005)

OK I do not assosiate with any of the groups you mentioned save for the Nindo, whom I may not agree with technique wise. I like them.

We have discussed the bujingodai before. And for many facts you are right. I am also not resgisted under the Shidoshi Kai, I am not a liscenced Kan teacher. Yes I have people that train under me but I also have a teacher. 3 of them actually. The org as it is I did start, because I am a businessman and thats what I am good at. However I have quite a bit left to learn.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 5, 2005)

Regardless I am not the one playing up what I am. I don't ask for your support for it, nor do I need it. My dojo is open to anyone to come show me, show me up or whatever. But I enjoy what I am doing, so I will go back to that focus on what is important to me. I didn't come here to justify what I do just state that not all neo are movie martial artists.
And maybe one day Don I will open my eyes and have you to thank for it. If I ever come to Japan, a likelyhood by years end or early 2006, are you up for an honest chat? Personally I respect where you are coming from even if we don't agree on it all.


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## Don Roley (Mar 5, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I didn't come here to justify what I do just state that not all neo are movie martial artists.



You keep repeating that, but can you name even one that does not either lie and/or spent less than ten years going to a qualified teacher on a weekly basis before setting himself up to teach his own thing? You belong to a group that has Yo Sato as a member. I do not see how you can associate yourself with that type of person and try to defend them.


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## Bester (Mar 5, 2005)

*Sigh*

I started this thread to poke some fun as a small but consistantly annoying group of people.  The fools that think movies is real.  I didn't start it to bash the Bujikan, or any other Kan group.  I didn't start it to create a flame-fest.  

Just to needle the fools, and have a little fun.

Thinkg are way off base at this point, and I request that the moderators please, lock, throw or bury this as it's become an embarrasment for many of those involved, and a blemish on their respective organizations. It is this sort of behavior which sadly has made the ninja and his arts a continuous joke in the martial arts community, and allowed fakirs to abuse them.  

Such a pity.  What started out as humor, turns to hatred.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 5, 2005)

Well Don respctively I have no idea how many years they had teachers. I still continue to have one, did for some years prior to going indie, and still have a Kan teacher so I guess I qualify in a way. 
As for Yo Sato, we departed ways some time ago actually.

I agree with the last poster, the reason for the thread has gone way off base. I was only trying to set somewhat of a record straight not start a debate that will never be won/accepted. So Ok.


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## Don Roley (Mar 6, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I still continue to have one, did for some years prior to going indie, and still have a Kan teacher so I guess I qualify in a way.
> As for Yo Sato, we departed ways some time ago actually.



So you go to this teacher every week? Or is it just a seminar or two from time to time? And let us show just how easy it show proof of training by having you give the names of your teacher and then others can verify it for themselves. 

Otherwise this whole attack on the Bujinkan you started serves no purpose.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 7, 2005)

Sadly right now it is time to time. I train under Shidoshi Pierre Benoit out of Montreal. I will not name my Indie teacher as Iwouldn't give him the hassle I face. I do also train under Jackson Wagner and David Falcaro 2 people whom I wish people here have actually met and trained with. It is laughable when people talk of their lack of skill, then you see it.

What attack did I start? I defended people that didn't fit the movie thing. Don you are picking things out of everything that I say and using it.
I guess I am pretty much finished with the conversation, yes Don I am a fake and you are right. 
Ok on to other things.


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## Jeff Boler (Mar 7, 2005)

Bester said:
			
		

> *Sigh*
> 
> I started this thread to poke some fun as a small but consistantly annoying group of people.  The fools that think movies is real.  I didn't start it to bash the Bujikan, or any other Kan group.  I didn't start it to create a flame-fest.
> 
> ...




First off, my apologies to Bujinkan members, as I was under the assumption that mr. BESTER, was a Bujinkan member himself.  Had I known otherwise, I would not have brought it up.

However, Mr. Bester's attitude toward anyone that doesn't toe the Takamatsu line, is not all that different from the vast majority of Takamatsuden students that I have come in contact with.

The whole "we're better than you" arguement is getting old.  While it's true that Bujinkan / Genbukan has legitimate ties to Japan, I can point out several Koryu scholars who would be able to argue that there ties do not fall in the Koryu lines.

A long with this, there have long been "rumors" about various relationships that the Bujinkan has had with several questionable groups, from Juko Kai, to Aum Shinrikyo, etc.  Quite frankly, I believe both to be bogus.  Seems to me that the one single organization that has hurt the Bujinkan more than any of these is the Brotherhood, and they are supposed to be legit.

Point is this.  The X-Kans have a similar amount of turmoil, as any independent organization has.  So why must the "I'm better than you are" comments continue to pop up?  It's pointless, and there's no way to resolve it.

As for Mr. Bester, if you have no legitimate ties to any Ninjutsu organization yourself, I don't see that you have any right to "poke fun" with annoying posts that do nothing more than be-little others.  I suggest that the easiest way to stop these type of posts, is to not start them in the first place.


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## Don Roley (Mar 7, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I do also train under Jackson Wagner and David Falcaro 2 people whom I wish people here have actually met and trained with. It is laughable when people talk of their lack of skill, then you see it..



I do not know the latter fellow, but I have seen Jackson Wagner's supposed certificate that he claims he got from his Japanese teacher. It is so funny I would have had milk coming out of my nose had I been drinking any. Among other things, it was supposably issued by the "Heavenly Dog Association." It is an obvious fake and so Wagner is a liar and a fraud. I do not see how anyone would want to train under a liar and a fraud. And I am sure that Dave Gibb may think that he is skilled, but considering just how little experience he has, it is not surprising. I have seen pictures from Wagner's site and they did not impress me. Years ago I probably would not have seen the holes in his techniques I do now.

These are the "indies" you try to defend and claim to be worthy of learning from? A guy who uses a fake certificate? And Dave, you have not trained on a regular basis under a qualified instructor long enough to get to a point where you can teach Bujinkan- and yet you teach "Bujin Godai?" Just in the examples shown so far I have not seen a person who has put in the time or has been honest about what they do in any "indie" practicioner.


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## Don Roley (Mar 7, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Point is this.  The X-Kans have a similar amount of turmoil, as any independent organization has.  So why must the "I'm better than you are" comments continue to pop up?  It's pointless, and there's no way to resolve it.



Better than who?

We do not like to be lumped together with Ashida Kim, Frank Dux or any person making fraudulant claims out there. And yes, I do believe that Hatsumi is 100 times better on his worst day than anyone trying to use a certificate issued by the "Heavenly Dog Association" as proof that he had a teacher.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 7, 2005)

I know that Wagner was taught thru Obata and Kimeda.
Forget the damn paper, have you seen him move? Has anyone that you know of trained with him. 
As for me. I don't teach Bujinkan. Never said I did, don't issue grade in it either. However I was 4 or 5 years regularly in a Kan school before going out so to speak. I have seen people that were kyus along side of me are now 5 dan plus, so being in it long enough to teach it. There are many schools there with inexperienced teachers. I for one was willing to admit to you long time ago that the Bujingodai was an accident. I never asked to teach, at all. It just happened this way. Have admitted that to pretty much anybody that asks. 
This is getting pathetic. I am not attacking the Booj, Nor do I care. I am again hardly the one you need to throw blame at.
Sorry your not impressed but at the end of the day, I have to be happy with myself
if anyone wishes to come to my dojo and teach or if you feel you need to come and school me to show how little my skill is there please do. 
email me at bujingodai@yahoo.ca
I am not issueing a challenge but merely to show I am willing to show what I know, or what I do not yet know. I have nothing to hide, I am not the one making claims.
But I am sure your next post will do more to damage what I am. What would your end product be Don?

Go piss on Dux or Kim.


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## Don Roley (Mar 7, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I know that Wagner was taught thru Obata and Kimeda.



Prove it. Are you talking about Toshiro Obata? I can imagine Wagner showing up to a seminar or two by Obata. But he lied about being taught that style he claims on his web site. So he is a liar and no matter how many other seminars he goes to or tickets he gets punched by doing so he is still a person who lies about his experience. And as much as you think he moves skillfully, there are people who believe just as strongly about Kim or Dux or any other fraud.

But now you seem to be trying to justify setting yourself up as a teacher, even though you were never at the skill level to teach Bujinkan. If you are a typical independent, what does that say about the general skill level? "My teaching was just an accident"- yeah I have heard things like that before. If you are truely happy with what you do and feel no need to justify it, why are you posting here again and again after saying that you are finished with the matter to try to justify what you do?  Tearing down others to justify your setting up your own Bujin Godai system is not something that would fill me with confidence if I wanted to train with you. 

Again, nothing I have seen from the independents strikes me as being honest or very skilled. Here is a list I found that has one of your teachers (David Falcaro) on it. You may note that at the top you will find Ashida Kim as an honored member.

http://www.btins.us/shidoshis.htm


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## Kizaru (Mar 7, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> While it's true that Bujinkan / Genbukan has legitimate ties to Japan, I can point out several Koryu scholars who would be able to argue that there ties do not fall in the Koryu lines.


Exactly! They're just that, _scholars_, not martial artists. I could find just as many "Koryu Scholars" here in Japan that would argue that the 9 ryu and the way they're taught ARE legitimate koryu. I could find just as many martial artists here involved with koryu that would vouch for the legitamcy of the 9 ryu. I've actually been told by one Soke here that he and other Shihan/Shihanke/Soke/Soshi feel that Hatsumi Soke teaches _too_ traditionally.

Sadly, I've also come in contact with a lot of people who come to Japan, train for a little while, go back to their own home countries and then (verbally) bash other people doing Japanese martial arts when they get back. This a) makes them feel special b) makes others who haven't yet been to Japan think they are "the real deal" or that they are "Koryu Scholars" and c) helps win them a corner of the market share.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 7, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> I've actually been told by one Soke here that he and other Shihan/Shihanke/Soke/Soshi feel that Hatsumi Soke teaches _too_ traditionally.



That's rather fascinating. I wouldn't want you to violate confidentiality and possibly create problems for whatever Soke said this by asking for his name and ryu, but can you give a clearer picture of the sense in which the remark was meant?


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## althaur (Mar 7, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> A long with this, there have long been "rumors" about various relationships that the Bujinkan has had with several questionable groups, from Juko Kai, to Aum Shinrikyo, etc. Quite frankly, I believe both to be bogus. Seems to me that the one single organization that has hurt the Bujinkan more than any of these is the Brotherhood, and they are supposed to be legit.


Easy there, bub.  The ONLY time that accusation was made was by Don Cunningham.  He pulled it out of his *** and got a verbal thrashing for it.  He made that accusation not too long after 9/11.  That was the point where even the slightest accusation of association to a terrorist group could cause a lot of harm.  The ONLY questionable group to "latch on" to the Bujinkan was the Juko Kai.  I guess Rod wanted to be taken seriously.


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## Don Roley (Mar 7, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> I could find just as many "Koryu Scholars" here in Japan that would argue that the 9 ryu and the way they're taught ARE legitimate koryu. I could find just as many martial artists here involved with koryu that would vouch for the legitamcy of the 9 ryu.



Yep, which is why I stress the proof of Japan link and actual teacher so much.

You cannot find scholars to agree 100 percent on anything it seems. Heck, you want to find people who think the US never went to the moon you can find them.

But a Japanese art should have a link to Japan and be known in this country. Many fruads flock to the title of ninjutsu in order to use the excuse of "secrecy' to explain away why they are not known in Japan. But if you can hear about it on the internet, it ain't that secret. Heck, can anyone think of a reason to keep an art secret in the 20th century that _does not_ sound like a bad comic book plot?

Same goes for proof of a teacher. Even if my teacher were to die tommorow, the pile of proof in terms of certificates, photos and people who have witnessed me training under him would be overwhelming. So when someone claims to have been taught to the level of grandmastership and can't provide even that, I just have to laugh in their face.


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## Kreth (Mar 8, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I know that Wagner was taught thru Obata and Kimeda.
> Forget the damn paper, have you seen him move? Has anyone that you know of trained with him.


You know what, Dave? I've seen vid of Falcaro at least, and since I have a bit of time on my hands at the moment, how about you pass on some contact info and class schedules. If they're reasonably close to my area (upstate NY), I'll drop in to attend a class. I will even volunteer my services as uke. After which, I will provide a full report of my experience on this forum. Fair enough?
If her schedule permits, I may even ask my gf along to videotape, if the instructors in question have no problems with it, of course....

Jeff


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## Kizaru (Mar 8, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> A long with this, there have long been "rumors" about various relationships that the Bujinkan has had with several questionable groups, from Juko Kai, to Aum Shinrikyo, etc. Quite frankly, I believe both to be bogus..


 
If you believe them to be bogus, then why did you bother to write them?

Was it because you forgot about the Papal Award that Hatsumi sensei received? Or the numerous letters of gratitude from various world leaders? Or the cultural awards that Hatsumi sensei has received from various Japanese organizations? What exactly was the intention behind your statement?

Gassho.


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## Jeff Boler (Mar 8, 2005)

althaur said:
			
		

> Easy there, bub.  The ONLY time that accusation was made was by Don Cunningham.  He pulled it out of his *** and got a verbal thrashing for it.  He made that accusation not too long after 9/11.  That was the point where even the slightest accusation of association to a terrorist group could cause a lot of harm.  The ONLY questionable group to "latch on" to the Bujinkan was the Juko Kai.  I guess Rod wanted to be taken seriously.



I beg to differ, the rumor was created by an email trail from a prominent member of an X-Kan.  (I still have the emails.)  Don Cunningham did not create any such rumor.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 8, 2005)

Don unfortunatly I find myself defending it, due to people bringing it up and asking me to. Now as for whom exactly Jackson trained with I don't know. He trained thru Kimeda and Obata. I will ask him though. And you are correct that yes it is my view of skill. I have seen Kim in action and I can see a good difference, Though I am a chump though it would seem. Yes I am impressed by what I see with Jackson.
I don't gloat my skill. I am not so bold as to say I am anything in particular. I am a good teacher to my students in many ways, I also bring in alot of talent to show them things I cannot since I have not learned to my potential yet.
Don in the short of it, piss off will you. This will be the last I will pander to your words to get a rise out of me. Though now I see it will be because you have proven me wrong. I have been pretty forthcoming and honest about my situation and you continue to slap it all around as if I am this nefariuos (sp) creep looking to set myself up as some super ninja. Not so. So discussion over by me.
I guess I thought we had buried the hatchet some time ago. I guess not. Be well, I have always respected your opinion. But I won't answer any more of your questions. I answer and you rebut, you should be a lawyer Don.
Jeff, I have no issues at all with you coming here. I would more than likely ask you to teach me something as well. If you are coming with an open heart then fine, if you are coming to bust my *** up and prove a point. Also fine. Just let me know your intent.
I know that you are a Booj old timer, and skilled so either could be the case.
If you are interested in the summit in April at Falcaros place, very cool. I will put up your expenses. But again state your intention.
If you are further interested this may be the better one. I have 100 acres of land, with a campground and an obstacle course etc etc. We are having a gathering in August. Wagner, will be there, Falcaro will be there, I will be there along with some other indies. It is a camping event, more about auxillary skills etc. More relaxed of the events. 
My class times are Monday 6:30-9:30, Tues the same and Wed we have a kickboxing clinic, not taught by me at all.
If you wish to set something up email me at bujingodai@yahoo.ca
on either case. I will email you some clips of my class in action, links to websites that we have and the so on.
I live in Pembroke which is about 3-4 hrs north of the border, off hwy 81. I am not sure where you are in NY.
The summit in April will be in Bethlehem
The Aug camp will again be held here. but in the bush not the dojo
My teacher(s) will be at all the events.

I hope I have been more open and less BS than at least some of the Ashida Kim types.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 8, 2005)

Jeff, Oneonta is by per MSN about 7 hrs from me and 3 hrs from the summit. personally I would go with the summit as there would be a collection of indies to rate. You are close to Binghamton, ironic cause I will be there this weekend on my way to Bethlehem and Gettysburg. However I will have my daughters with me so, I won't drag them into any potential conflict. 
I will ask the schools attending if they ahve any issues with you being at the summit. If not I will pay your attendance, food is included with the summit as well as accoms if you can't get them yourself. You would be pretty impressed with the spead Falcaro Sensei has, well I am. 
So let me know and I will get the ball in motion
The summit is April 15,16,17. There were alot more schools coming but now so far we have Falcaro Sensei and the Godaishin Dojo, The Nindo Ryu, My group, Wagner Sensei, King Sensei and the Sanucus Ryu (pardon the spelling) I am not sure but there is a few more possibly lined up.


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## Shizen Shigoku (Mar 8, 2005)

I just wanted to say I thought it clever that Bester's fictional training camp begins on April Fools' Day.


I otherwise have nothing constructive to add.

Carry on.


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## Don Roley (Mar 9, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Don in the short of it, piss off will you.



How nice, 'PISS OFF." You really show what you are made of by statements like that.

You may note that I did not single out any person at first, but merely pointed out that none of the 'neo ninja' masters came close to even my level of experience. But look at post #21 in this thread and you see that you talked about yourself as one worthy of respect by my standards. After that, you opened yourself up to comparison and you do not like it  that all that facts show you to be less than worthy.

Here is some advice, if you _really_ do not want to deal with something anymore, stop posting. Just stop posting at all. Whatever you do, don't post some new argument, a statement that you are not going to post anymore and then try to intimidate the other side into not responding to your new arguments. That is a a tactic to try to get in the last word known as a _weasel fart._ And you have stated several times in this thread that you were done with the matter, only to come back when your attempts at getting the last word didn't work.

And let us face it, you can yell all you want about things, but the facts are the facts. You may be the most honest 'neo ninjer' I have run across, but you have never gotten to a level that would allow you to teach Bujinkan and yet you have students and more than one dojo under you. You can say all you want about how some Bujinkan teachers are not really all that good, but if you failed to reach a point where you could teach as well, what does that say about you? 

It is the way neo ninjers go on the attack like you have instead of being able to stand on their own merits that cause me to pause. The way you felt in neccesary to bring down the Bujinkan instead of showing us how all the guys who declare themselves ninja master like yourself in relaly troubling. You are not qualified to teach a Japanese ninjutsu style, and so you seem to find a need to attack those systems for not recognizing you as you feel you should be treated.

Let us take a look at some of the people going to this real neo ninjer summit you are having.

Jackson Wagner= claims to have been trained in a Japanese tradition by a Japanese teacher but there is no mention of that Japanese tradition in Japan and no proof that his teacher ever existed. And the certificate he tried to pass off as proof was passed around the Japanese- fluent members of e-budo because of all the humerous value that badly faked fradulant piece held. Just one of the problems was that it was supposably issued by the "Heavenly Dog Association" and there are many, many other problems that caused a lot of mirth among people that could read Japanese.

Godaishin= I really do not know this guy, but I doubt he meets the very low level of drive and experience I set out as a challenge. All I can really tell is that he joins a lot of ninjer orginizations to build up his resume and does not mind being counted alongside Ashida Kim if it is in his best interest.

Nindo ryu= Oh Gawd were do I start? Do you know just how many times this group and its founder has made claims only to not be able to back it up and resort to conspiracy theories to try to cover itself? The founder was born on 9-13-1958 and founded his own ninja style in 1980. Do the friggin math. And did he have any training in a legitimate ninjutsu style before setting up his own system? Are you kidding? A few years after he started up as a ninja system head he went to a total of two seminars under Tetsuya Higuchi and pointed to that for a full two decades as his link to legitimate ninjutsu experience. But when he was told that Higuchi was not a Bujinkan teacher as he claimed and presented with proof his orginization tried to spin a conspiracy theory to explain away the denials by Hatsumi. They tried to portray Hatsumi as someone who would lie to cover their own claims up. And that is not the only case. They used to claim that their founder was offered an eighth dan in Bujinkan but turned it down. But only Hatsumi can give out eighth dans and the founder (Carlos Febres) had never been in the same state as Hatsumi. No one has ever backed up their claim for this and they instead floated the rumor that Hatsumi really did make the offer through another person for deniabilities sake. And I am not mentioning the time they tried to frame a Bujinkan member for assault or the way they tried to present an honorary rank from the Genbukan as the real thing.

These are only the groups for this neo ninja training camp you are having that I am aware of, and all that I have heard so far points to them being a great big joke. You say that there are bad teachers in the Bujinkan and I agree since that is the case with all martial arts styles. But for the amount of money you are spending to fly down to this thing to strut around and teach, you could be going to skilled teachers like Bill Atkins, Papa- san, Jack Hoban or others.

But I guess you would rather hang around with people who lie about their training and set themselves up as masters instead of going to skilled teachers of legitimate Japanese ninjutsu. Go ahead and make further insults and excuses, it is a fact that you are not spending your money to go to Japan or other good teachers of Bujinkan but rather using it to go to a place to hang out with people that lie about what they are. And even though I have always treated you fairly, I have never understood why you would do so instead of doing the honest thing and putting your own studies above your being seen as a teacher.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 9, 2005)

I have never understood why you would do so instead of doing the honest thing and putting your own studies above your being seen as a teacher.

Don, you have no idea sometimes how much what you said is a fact for me. I honestly did not want to be seen that way.

I appreciate your comments on this, Thanks. I will take it all into consideration.

As for the piss off. We all get fustrated Don, sorry for that. I guess because I had thought for the most part, we did not agree on things but had planed out our arguements...now I seem to be the focus of this landslide it was fustrating. However no matter what one says, one shouldn't have to resort to that.


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## Don Roley (Mar 9, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I honestly did not want to be seen that way.



So why don't you consider how your actions have led to people seeing you in that way? Why don't you take a long, serious look at your actual motivations for what you do? Why are you willing to set yourself up as a teacher and hang around with fruads and other self proclaimed masters instead of quietly trying to improve yourself day by day?

If I had to give you some advice it would be this- stop teaching martial arts and posting about martial arts for a year or so and take the time to instead deal with professionals and people who care about you as a person and not a martial artist to try to find out why you do the things you do.

I hope you listen to this, but I fear your whole ego system is built into maintaining your image in front of your students and you can never let that go. I expect excuses as to why you just can't stop doing what you do, but I hope to be proved wrong despite the odds.


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## Jeff Boler (Mar 9, 2005)

Don.  Can you explain something to me, and maybe I can better understand the way the Bujinkan operates.  It is my understanding that there is no set curriculum in the Bujinkan.  In essence, a member of the Shidoshi-kai is not required to teach a curriculum that is written in stone.   There isn't a set catalog of techniques that is required for rank promotion.  Is this right?  Is it possible that you could visit two different Bujikan schools, and one not remotely look like the other?

I just remember reading one of the Juko Kai newsletters, in which Rod stated that because of the confusing nature of the Bujinkan, he was requiring John Willson to write down a formal catalog of techniques.  Am I to assume that one doesn't exist?

I'm not flaming here, i'm just curious.  It seems to me that if you had multiple schools teaching their own thing, then the original art form could potentially be lost in the mix.....


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## Bujingodai (Mar 9, 2005)

Yes, Don I get the point
When I was still with the Bujinkan I moved away from any school to Pembroke. Back then I was studying under Frank Hill, Hachidan. I honestly don't think I was much a student. I was immature and my life was a wreck. I asked him if I could send him tapes in between my visits so he could see I was still training, he had stated at the time he didn't have the time. I was upset at the fact I had been there a number of years and that was the case. Now more than ever I can see it may have been me.
However with that being said, when I got here I had started with a Bujinkan group on the army base, it was being instructed by a 9th kyu. I was higher ranked, so I was asked to instruct...I was a civi so they didn't want it. So I attained someone to train with so I could keep what I had going, continued to attend seminars, go to other cities to train etc. All still Bujinkan, and again with no asperations to teach per se.
Some things turned me off the Bujinkan, the group got bigger over time etc etc, thats how things flowered for me. I had no intention of being the teacher. I had at this point set out to find quite a few mentors, including Bujinkan. My skill personally has gotten better, that is an opinion. So I have been focusing on bettering myself.
But I have never seen myself as being some leader of a style. It was an accident, and if by someways I could take it all back I would. But then maybe I would have not met some of the people I would have, so maybe I would not.
People like Falcaro Sensei, who say what you will has great skill. Tell you what Don, I will send the DVD from this upcoming summit to you no charge to Japan...I will pay the mailing etc etc. Just so there is some merit to what I say.
As for my own group. I pay more to heat the dojo then I make teaching. Don't have that many students and give 150% of whatever I can for them. last year I spent 4 months in the bush working on a camp with a 20 piece obstacle course and working plumbing. So yes I am proud of what we as a group has accomplished. I am proud of what I have learned as well.
I am proud that when I hear parents call me and say that their kid has stopped skipping school, gets better grades and whatever because of some of the values I have instilled in class to them.
So if that does it for me. Yep I get a good addictive feeling for some of that.
I have done OK for the ninjer that I am.
However if you don't think that everyday I wish it had gone a different way you are wrong. But I will defend the people I think worth it, regardless of what legits may think. If I chose to stick to what I am doing, it is not an excuse I don't answer to anyone, if I chose to stop all together it is also my choice.
Sorry to bore you with this but I felt I needed to.
My side of the argement is over and I hope I don't feel the need to rebut an insult coming my way. Because I just trying to be as upfront an honest with this as I can be. So if you wish to find someway to slag me after this post then well I can't stop it.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 9, 2005)

The fact remains, you could get better than what you've got right now.


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## KyleShort (Mar 9, 2005)

However, training others will make you better...so I would argue that he would have had to have gotten better over time...perhaps not in taijutsu, but at least in fighting.

Dave,

The thing is...what you get from training with a high level bujinkan instructor is not observable.  I have a black belt in kenpo karate, a red sash in wing chun, escrima and sambo experience.  With that knowledge I could easily look at someone like Falcaro (who I have never seen) and be impressed by his speed.  I could be impressed by a lot of other things too, but none of that is relevant when reviewing in the context of taijutsu.  

I would argue that essence of good taijutsu is felt, not seen.  It does not manifest itself in speed, agility and other such attributes, though those may be byproducts of training.  You should seek to understand and aquire that "essence".  Perhaps just training with some bujinkan shihan for a little bit of time to really feel what they do and understand if you have that...and more to the point, are you aquiring that through your training group?

From the look of it, you have more experience in the bujinkan that I do, so my words may not hold much vailidity.  But I thought I would add them anyway =)


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## Bujingodai (Mar 9, 2005)

Appreciate your opinion.
I have seen a number of high level practitioners in and outside of the Bujinkan. So yes I can see the benefits and loss. I do think I am better than I was. But I can see what everyone is saying. I appreciate you taking the time to give me any assistance.
I will stand to say that Falcaro Sensei is likely one of the most talented martial artists I have met. I have only seen a little Ninjutsu from him, I was more impressed by his other disciplines. 
Thats my opinion.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 9, 2005)

MOD NOTE

 Please Keep the Conversation Polite and Respectable

 -Technopunk
 -MT Moderator


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## Bujingodai (Mar 9, 2005)

Accepted Techno. My apologies for the P/O word.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 9, 2005)

Well, thats a friendly reminder for everyone Dave, not just you...


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## Shizen Shigoku (Mar 9, 2005)

I know this question was directed at Shrek (oops, I mean Don ), but I'd like to share my view on it.



*Jeff Boler: "It is my understanding that there is no set curriculum in the Bujinkan."*

- Pretty much true, yes.

*"In essence, a member of the Shidoshi-kai is not required to teach a curriculum that is written in stone."*

- In essence, no stone, correct.

*"There isn't a set catalog of techniques that is required for rank promotion."*

- I haven't seen one for the buj' as a whole, but some shidoshi create their own.

*"Is it possible that you could visit two different Bujikan schools, and one not remotely look like the other?"*

- Entirely possible.

*"..., he was requiring John Willson to write down a formal catalog of techniques. Am I to assume that one doesn't exist?"*

- Again, I haven't seen or heard of one for the Bujinkan as a whole, but if this John Willson fellow (sorry, I don't recognize the name) wants to make up one of his own to give to Mr. Sachonarski (sp?), he may do so as long as he doesn't claim it to be the official Bujinkan curriculum.

*"It seems to me that if you had multiple schools teaching their own thing, then the original art form could potentially be lost in the mix....."*

- I don't agree. Even though there is no set curriculum, and each shidoshi is allowed to teach as they see fit, people who learn Bujinkan Budo still draw from the same pool (or rather, ocean) of technical and tactical knowledge. We are all strongly encouraged - as opposed to formerly required - to learn and practice what our instructors teach us, and to teach others as we ourselves were taught. This allows the freedom to treat each student individually to impart to them what the instructor believes they need to learn, and at the same time to make any improvements or additions to training methods as they see fit - as long as they fit within the general "feeling" of Bujinkan philosophy.

The original art form is still preserved in the scrolls and in the knowledge and technical ability of those with menkyo kaiden in the various ryu. It will all still be there. The lack of official curriculum means that it is our personal responsibility as students to catch as much as we can from what trickles down to us from the masters.

I'm probably horribly paraphrasing here, but I think I remember reading a quote of sensei Hatsumi that said he is not teaching techniques, only showing them. If we want to learn them, we have to go to him and steal them. 

It is up to us what we want to learn - though it is highly recommended that we learn in the manner our teacher proscribe. 


Ok, Don, your turn!


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## Shizen Shigoku (Mar 9, 2005)

p.s. the above, and the question that prompted it should probably have been in a separate thread as they have nothing to do with Bester's fictional training camp.


I wonder if it's possible for a mod. or admin. to split it off?


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## Don Roley (Mar 10, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> It seems to me that if you had multiple schools teaching their own thing, then the original art form could potentially be lost in the mix.....



I and others have thought about this before. But Hatsumi has made sure that those around him and in line for potential succesion know the whole enchilada. As long as the branches overseas make honest effforts to keep coming back to the source, I have little fear that there will be parts lost like that to the world. The branches that choose to not make honest efforts will have to deal with the potential of them not maintaining the whole total.


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## Kreth (Mar 10, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I will ask the schools attending if they ahve any issues with you being at the summit. If not I will pay your attendance, food is included with the summit as well as accoms if you can't get them yourself. You would be pretty impressed with the spead Falcaro Sensei has, well I am.
> So let me know and I will get the ball in motion
> The summit is April 15,16,17. There were alot more schools coming but now so far we have Falcaro Sensei and the Godaishin Dojo, The Nindo Ryu, My group, Wagner Sensei, King Sensei and the Sanucus Ryu (pardon the spelling) I am not sure but there is a few more possibly lined up.


What I'm thinking, is that I'd probably be able to make one day of the summit, likely on Saturday. As I said, I'm willing to act as uke for any of the instructors, and I'd also like permission to videotape. As for conflicts, there will only be one if one of the people I act as uke for decides to try and "teach me a lesson."
Afterwards, I will post in this thread with an account of my experience.

Jeff


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## Bujingodai (Mar 10, 2005)

I doubt too much that there would be anyone there to "teach" anyone a lesson, and any reaction to someone doing that is worthwhile. No need for anyone on any side to be a jerk about it.
I think personally it would be great. We originally had a kan, Chris Watson invited but some schools had some issues with it. Those schools are no longer attending. I think it would be nice, even to be able to have some constructive chat about the event.
Odds are you'd see something that doesn't seem so good, may well see some things that may shed a better light on some of the schools.

Jeff what is your email address and I can continue the info there and set things up for you. I want to send you a clip via email of one of my guys in action as well. Not to see if it is good or bad, just would like a critique. If that would be OK. I would love any help you can give me.


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## Kreth (Mar 10, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Jeff what is your email address and I can continue the info there and set things up for you. I want to send you a clip via email of one of my guys in action as well. Not to see if it is good or bad, just would like a critique. If that would be OK. I would love any help you can give me.


You can email me via my profile. I try to avoid posting it as the spam spiders will pick it up...

Jeff


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## Don Roley (Mar 11, 2005)

Kreth said:
			
		

> As I said, I'm willing to act as uke for any of the instructors, and I'd also like permission to videotape. As for conflicts, there will only be one if one of the people I act as uke for decides to try and "teach me a lesson."



Good idea. The Nindo ryu is supposed to go to that thing, and you can ask Jeff Mueller about what happened to him after he trained with them and reported back that they were not all that great.

Definately keep a video copy of everything that goes on.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 11, 2005)

gee, I wouldn't want to get the wrong idea as to why this is happening.
If the intention is to come and disprove, to attend with that mindset to come and collect info to publicly smash the groups. No, I won't have it.
However anyway Jeff I will email you from this point on.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 11, 2005)

BTW, I will also be having words with all of the schools involved. In the lines that no one need to come with prove it attitude. It happens rarely, but even between the indies some like to show their dominance.


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## Godaishin (Mar 15, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I do also train under Jackson Wagner and David Falcaro .


Gibb Sensei is not currently, nor has ever been a student of Falcaro Sensei's. He has participated in a few joint seminars and is a friend but this does not make him a student. This will be the only post I will make. 
                                                                     Jacob Fouts, Uchideshi
                                                                     Godaishin Dojo


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## Kizaru (Mar 15, 2005)

Godaishin said:
			
		

> Gibb Sensei is not currently, nor has ever been a student of Falcaro Sensei's. He has participated in a few joint seminars and is a friend but this does not make him a student.
> Jacob Fouts, Uchideshi
> Godaishin Dojo


"Uchideshi", eh? So you live at your teacher's house and pay for training by doing cooking, cleaning and other chores for him? Awesome.


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## Don Roley (Mar 16, 2005)

Kizaru,
Play nice. It is obvious that someone started using things (like language and terms) he had no true knowlege of as he set himself up as a head of a ninjutsu system. We are kind of used to that. But please just tell them that and don't make trouble for us moderators.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 16, 2005)

Correct, Jacob is right. I am not a student of the Godaishin Dojo, I do mean exactly what he states. Cross training. Sorry if I made it look any other way, not my intention. I do "train" under Wagner Sensei though. Falcaro Sensei has "taught" me things, so I guess I misworded it.


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## HonshinWarrior (Mar 16, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> "Uchideshi", eh? So you live at your teacher's house and pay for training by doing cooking, cleaning and other chores for him? Awesome.


I can vouch for Jacob.  He does live at his Sensei's house and does chores and stuff like that.   Jacob is the friggin man.  A really BIG friggin man! lol  He can bring the pain for sure!  Nice guy as well!  

Hope to see ya soon man!  I can't make the summit but I will be around there sooner or later.


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## Kizaru (Mar 16, 2005)

HonshinWarrior said:
			
		

> I can vouch for Jacob. He does live at his Sensei's house and does chores and stuff like that.


(The following is taken from the "Animal List") 
Below are links to various professional sites that give not only the warning signs of cults, but also members' behavioral patterns. We invite you to take a minute and follow them. Many of the warning signs mentioned there can be applied to much of the behavior you see on Internet forums. And if you are really unlucky, you will see it in your martial art school. 
Links to "warning signs of a cult" Web pages
http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/study_whatisdescult.htm Cultic Studies Journal
http://www.factnet.org/rancho5.htm?FACTNet FactNet
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~ucm/rmrc3.htm Religious Movement Resource Center 
http://www.rickross.com/warningsigns.htmlRick Ross
http://www.cultinformation.org.uk/faq.html Cult Information Centre (UK)

(snip) The thing is: _People who are willing to be used are often willing to use others_.

This brings us back to the idea that volunteers don't work for free. As they are being used, often such people are using the group for their own agenda. Cults are a two-way street. Both the cult leader and the member are getting something out of it. 



			
				HonshinWarrior said:
			
		

> Jacob is the friggin man. A really BIG friggin man! lol .


So is that like, "Michael Jackson big" or more like Tom Hanks' "BIG"?



			
				HonshinWarrior said:
			
		

> He can bring the pain for sure! Nice guy as well!


How does he pull that off? Does he put ball bearings in the morning muffins for the master instead of blueberries?!?!?

Maybe someone can give him a plane ticket to Japan and he can bring me some coffee.


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## HonshinWarrior (Mar 17, 2005)

Why do you have to be like that?   It is not like a cult at all.  I have been there.  Falcaro Sensei has the coolest house I have ever seen!  Jacob is a very large guy!  He is tall and strong and is an excellent martial artist (THAT is how he is big) He helps out when he is needed.


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## Kizaru (Mar 17, 2005)

HonshinWarrior said:
			
		

> Why do you have to be like that?


Basicly because I don't care much for martial arts schools with big egos, nor do I have much patience for cults. For me, the first tip off is when a non-Japanese crowns themselves with a title like "Sensei" , "Shihan" , "Uchideshi" , "Unko Kui No Hito" or whatever. 

I read your reply, then your PM to me, and I thought, "okay, maybe that was a cheap shot". Then I did a little digging...the following quotes are all taken from David Falcaro's web page http://www.bumon.com 

"Be careful what you wish for..."



			
				HonshinWarrior said:
			
		

> It is not like a cult at all.


(From Falcaro's www.bumon.com)
"Uchideshi (Literal translation &#8220;live-in devotee") The role of an Uchideshi is to have a life devotion to the art as well as one to the Ryu, Sensei, and Dojo."
_That first line sounds a bit cultish to me...what about you?_

"An Uchideshi focuses mainly on his own training and caring for his Sensei."
_Why does the "sensei" need caring for? Can't he take care of himself? Why would one want to learn survival and protection skills from someone who can't take care of themselves?_

"He is an apprentice that has given his heart to the warrior arts."
_Sounds romantic..._

"To be an Uchideshi one must be hand picked by the Sensei to live with the Sensei."
_Like the "chosen" lived with David Koresh in Waco, Texas?_

"This person holds a unique position with the Sensei."
_I'm not even going to comment on what "position" I think that is..._

(SNIP)

"The training of an Uchideshi is quite different then that of a Kyu."
_Later on it's stated that the literal translation of "_Kyu " is &#8220;martial student&#8220;. _Which is a completely incorrect statement altogether. _"Kyu"_ in Japanese means (literally)_ "grade, class, degree or level". _Here's the proper kanji if you want to check yourself... _&#32026;

"There is not a point during the day where the Uchideshi is not in training from when he awakes to when he falls asleep at night, even while he dreams,"
_Even when he dreams?!?! Sounds like brainwashing to me..._

(SNIP)

"Training that would normally take nine years to complete; the Uchideshi must do in three."
_You've GOT to be kidding me._

"The Uchideshi&#8217;s Giri (duty) is to more then just keep up with the training; it is to push the Sensei to teach him more. Another aspect of his Giri is to care and support the Sensei in all ways."
_Here we go again!_

"An Uchideshi&#8217;s vocation is similar to that of a Knight&#8217;s Page. They live in the Sensei&#8217;s shadow." 
_So the grand sensei wants people "living in his shadow"? Does that sound like an ego problem to anyone here but me?!?!_

"They alone may speak for the Sensei. They are able to demonstrate on the Sensei&#8217;s behalf, constantly being groomed by the Sensei to become a sensei."
_Awesome._

"An Uchideshi is as close or closer to the Sensei then his own blood family."
_Now THAT is scary..._

"An Uchideshi is often considered the next Sensei because becoming one is an oath that seals one's fate."
_"Seals one's fate"?!?! Wait, let's look at that again...yep, that's what it says, "an oath that seals one's fate". Maybe I'm living in crazyland here, but that statement makes my spider senses tingle..._




			
				HonshinWarrior said:
			
		

> I have been there.


It's good you got out alive! Don't eat the muffins!



			
				HonshinWarrior said:
			
		

> Falcaro Sensei has the coolest house I have ever seen!


I'm very happy for him. Being a home owner is an accomplishment, especially at his age...

By David Falcaro's own admission (www.bumon.com "Our Sensei" section)
"In *1984*, at age seven I started my training in an American blend of Karate/ Kung-fu."

_2005 - 1984 = 21 years; 7 years old + 21 years = 28 years old in 2005. And he's the head of his own complete system at 28 years old....I dunno, I think I have more respect for him being a homeowner..._


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## Cryozombie (Mar 17, 2005)

*MOD NOTE:

*Please keep the Conversation Polite and Respectful

 -Technopunk
 -MT Moderator


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## HonshinWarrior (Mar 17, 2005)

Please do not make judgements and assumptions like that.  Especially when you obviously never spoke to him.  David Koresh was a complete whack job that had control over his weakminded idiot followers.   Falcaro Sensei has a bigger heart than anyone I know and is well respected by his community.   I am not going to get into this any further as it is giving me a headache. lol


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