# RBSD Instructors



## MJS (May 16, 2007)

Depending on who you talk to, opinions of people such as Jim Wagner, Peyton Quinn, Sammy Franco and Marc MacYoung, to name a few, can vary from person to person.  Some speak highly of these individuals and other tend to do the opposite.

What are your thoughts?  Do they have stuff to offer or are they just another fad?

I've read up on a few of them.  I find Wagners article in BB magazine interesting.  I've read a few of MacYoungs books and found them quite interesting.  IMO, its not so much that they're teaching new techniques, but the applications that they present.

So..what are your thoughts?

Mike


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## Hand Sword (May 16, 2007)

I agree with you. I don't think of them as a fad as they've been around for a while now. They definitely have found their niche. With all of the comeercialization going on, or, that has gone on for at least, what, 20 years now? Maybe more? There is a need for some to train a more hard core way, or place that "emphasis" on it. Basically that's all it is. Even in the Mc Dojo arguments of the past. They still learn the same techniques, and moves, as the hard core, it's just application practices that differ.


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## Andrew Green (May 16, 2007)

I think the problem with the RBSD grouping is that there are far more arm chair theorists arguing about the best way to fight off the godless, homeless communist, pyscho pathic thugs that randomly attack people for there quarters.

I imagine there are a few people in there that have real experience and really now what they are talking about, but when your target market becomes a bunch of guys that seem like the real life versions of Dale Gribble (King of the Hill), well, everyone will cater to there customers to some extent.


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## Hand Sword (May 16, 2007)

That's true. Doing what they have, they've now become part of that commercialization animal that they hated originally.


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## tellner (May 17, 2007)

It's a good thing fundamentally. A lot of people start martial arts because they are interested in self defense. More often than not they get screwed. They go to the dojo and get the old bait-and-switch. They're promised personal protection. They get years of katas, sparring which is optimized for incredibly unrealistic contests with other people in the same style, warmed over Orientalism and a funny looking set of pajamas. The ones who stick with it long enough are convinced that what they're getting is really a lot better than what they wanted. That may be true for some or even most. It's still a scam. They aren't getting what they paid for. 

These guys and others like them are at least trying to give people what they ask for, the ability to prevail in the sort of fight something like what they are likely to encounter in the real world. That's a good thing. The problems come when the teachers believe their own publicity or claim to have learned everything important from some discipline where they didn't even scratch the surface. At least one of the guys you mention has done exactly that, and no I won't say who.


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## bushidomartialarts (May 17, 2007)

That particular presentation of self defense has always felt off to me -- too much emphasis on 'hey, look at me, I'm a badass', too much ego.  

I agree that SD is important (though not in my opinion the ultimate aim of martial training), but prefer the angle taken by the Krav Maga/Haganah/ Systema crowd.  Tom Patire and Bill Kipp, though taking a very different approach, also impress me.

Both of those presentations seem to leave instructor ego out of it, instead focusing on the real needs of real people.  No books telling you which biker punch rings to buy, no stories about the gun he took away from the ninja assassin.  Just intelligent application of combat principals to people who'll only be in combat once.


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## searcher (May 17, 2007)

IMO they have found an overlooked area that needed to be addressed and they have exploited it to make a nice chunk of change and a name for themselves.   Who has not had to deal withthe effects of the adrenal-dump?  Not to many.    I doon't think you have to goto one of these guys to learn how to deal with it, but you do need to learn to deal with it.   I think that the "traditional" and not so traditional arts can help with an individual learning how to deal with the physiological effects of adrenal-dump.  I don't think the RBD guys have the only way.   You could probably find out how it effects the body and design your own training to help you with the whole thing.

This is JMHO and it can be picked apart if you feel the need.   I would put more thought into it, but it is 01:15 and I am tired.


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## Drac (May 17, 2007)

Jim Wagner is still a mystery to me...He seemed to come out of nowhere and now you can't pick up a copy of Black Belt magazine without seeing something written by him or about him...


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## jks9199 (May 17, 2007)

Drac said:


> Jim Wagner is still a mystery to me...He seemed to come out of nowhere and now you can't pick up a copy of Black Belt magazine without seeing something written by him or about him...


And, honestly, his columns haven't impressed me, nor has his "hopscotch" career.  I read his account of his time as an FAM, and it seemed a lot like he got hired to punch his ticket for writing columns/being a talking head.  In other words -- he wasted the time and expense of selecting and training him, with no apparent intent to follow through.  Now -- I could be dead wrong; this is only my opinion based on what little I've seen about him.  And I know quite a few former FAMs who left the program because it wasn't what they were led to expect or because there were plenty of organizational problems.  I'm not denying his experience or trying to discredit his work as a LEO, understand, but simply saying that he seems more talking head who's spent a lot of the last few years promoting his self defense training in various ways.  Which is, of course, his right...


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## kidswarrior (May 17, 2007)

Drac said:


> Jim Wagner is still a mystery to me...He seemed to come out of nowhere and now you can't pick up a copy of Black Belt magazine without seeing something written by him or about him...


 


			
				jks9199 said:
			
		

> And, honestly, his columns haven't impressed me, nor has his "hopscotch" career. I read his account of his time as an FAM, and it seemed a lot like he got hired to punch his ticket for writing columns/being a talking head.
> 
> ....I'm not denying his experience or trying to discredit his work as a LEO, understand, but simply saying that he seems more talking head who's spent a lot of the last few years promoting his self defense training in various ways. Which is, of course, his right...


Agreed, he hasn't impressed me, either, and he did seem to leap out of nowhere. True, he has a right to his opinion and to self-promotion, but when it goes beyond promoting himself to claiming his is the One True Path, it becomes dangerous. And this is what I perceive from this individual. I certainly would not put him in the same category as, for example, a Marc MacYoung.


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## SFC JeffJ (May 17, 2007)

WHat do you guys think about Hock?


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 17, 2007)

Personally I think that some of them have alot to offer and some of them well they just are not that good.  It is like anything in life, let the buyer beware.


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## Shotgun Buddha (May 18, 2007)

Personally Im not too impressed by many RBSD instructors, the whole tough guy marketing tends to put me off. However there are two of them who have always managed to impress me, simply because of the logical, rational way they make their arguements.
With both Mick Coup and Darren Laur, anything I've read by them has made an awful lot of sense with no posturing attached.
So I intend to try training with both of them at some point, has anyone had any contact with either?


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 18, 2007)

SFC JeffJ said:


> WHat do you guys think about Hock?


 
The little I know about Hock is that he is okay. (hope that helps)


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## MJS (May 25, 2007)

Wow, sorry for forgetting about this thread folks.  Looks like some great replies, so I wanted to bump it back up to the top for more discussion.:ultracool 

My thoughts:  Some mentioned the bad *** image that many of the RBSD guys project.  Now, is that because they really feel that they're the best, because they've proven their points with differences in material and teaching, or is it a marketing ploy?  There have been many times during a UFC match, that one of the fighters 'calls out' another fighter, whos watching in the crowd.  The guy in the crowd stands up, comes down the aisle, jumps into the ring and they're standing face to face talking smack.  Do they really hate each other or is it a tactic to draw a crowd for the next show?

Its no secret that many of them, especially Wagner, frown upon kata and much of the traditional mindset.  I think that if we look at the two, we can see differences.  Take Krav for instance.  Its billed as teaching something thats easy to learn, effective, easy to remember, doesn't take alot of practice...simple and to the point.  So...whats better?  

Personally, I don't think that its that they have anything new to teach, per se, but how they go about teaching.  Seems like there is an emphasis on quick and simple, rather than long and drawn out.

As I've always said, I think that both RBSD and TMA have much to offer.  I train in what would be considered a TMA, but I like to keep my eyes open.  If I see something that I feel that would benefit me, I have no problem adding it to my bag.

Mike


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 25, 2007)

*Lot's *of marketing going on.  Some of them are pretty tough guy's and other's well probably not so much. (some do over exaggerate their credentials and or real life experiences :erg  Other's definately bring a dimension that is needed in the martial arts. (is it really new though :idunno: you have to decide for yourself )   Choose carefully what you want to learn and remember it is up to you to find the right teacher for yourself.


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## Tez3 (May 26, 2007)

I don't know anything about the people you mention but we have these guys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Thompson

http://www.worldcombatarts.co.uk/article1.html

www.newbreedbooks.co.uk

Geoff Thompson, Mo Teague and Jamie O'Keefe are all well known over here, some say their training methods are brutal but it's not disputed that they have certainly "been there, done that and got the tshirt"! All are also writers.


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## kidswarrior (May 26, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know anything about the people you mention but we have these guys.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Thompson
> 
> http://www.worldcombatarts.co.uk/article1.html
> ...



Been reading some of Geoff Thompson's stuff, and he's all you say. I may not espouse training as he does, but he's about more than the physical. Very helpful stuff, and as you say *Tez*, he writes very well.

Will check out the others when I can. Thanks for the info.


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## Tez3 (May 26, 2007)

I've just been reading Geoff's "Watch my back", about his time on the doors. The amount of 'casual' violence is staggering. I think I must have had a very sheltered upbringing because I could never have imagined fighting like this! He's very honest about the effect it had on him though.


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## kidswarrior (May 26, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I've just been reading Geoff's "Watch my back", about his time on the doors. The amount of 'casual' violence is staggering. I think I must have had a very sheltered upbringing because I could never have imagined fighting like this! He's very honest about the effect it had on him though.



Have it on order. Thanks for the quick preview.


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## samurai69 (May 29, 2007)

in the uk we have as mentioned

the great Geoff thompson

along with dave turton, lee morrison, peter consterdine and many more all teaching a good rounded range of (RBSD) hard and soft skills


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## thetruth (Jun 5, 2007)

I only know about a few of the RBSD guys going around and I read very little martial type literature.  I'll use Jim Wagner and Hock as examples for this point.   Some of the TMA have been around for hundreds of years and were battle proven when peoples lives were at stake.   People respect these styles generally as they have paid their dues so to speak.  Jim Wagner and Hock (just examples remember) have been police officers, trained SWAT teams and the military and have had to test what they teach in real life situations and have developed their styles based on their experience.  How is this any different to the way TMA were developed?  People tend to brush off whats new as they don't see it as well tested.  People also tend to be far more dubious of those that appear from American instructors than Israeli for example. Why is this?  I've trained with Hock's representative in Australia and he has good stuff to teach and is very capable. I have seen some Krav Maga I find to be quite ordinary yet because its from Israel people give it more kudos.  Also, how is Geoff Thompson's book any less of a marketing tool for his teachings than Jim Wagner's Black Belt articles are for his? I'm sure Geoff didn't write his book for therapeutic purposes.    Just like there are many different types of restaurants to suit most peoples tastes, there are many different 'martial arts' to suit the differing needs of everyone. 

Just some thoughts

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## kidswarrior (Jun 5, 2007)

thetruth said:


> Also, how is Geoff Thompson's book any less of a marketing tool for his teachings than Jim Wagner's Black Belt articles are for his? I'm sure Geoff didn't write his book for therapeutic purposes.



You make some good points, Sam, especially in how we tend to gloss over the American MAists for the Israeli-based, or Russian-based, for example. I have also found this a gross and unfair simplification.

But regarding the Jim Wagner and Geoff Thompson comparison, I have yet to see Geoff in an all-black SWAT outfit, wearing not one but two--that's right two--firearms and who knows how many bladed weapons, sprays, stun guns, etc., posed in a _boxing _stance. If you possess these weapons and the legal right to use them, _why risk a face off to box some idiot on the street_? To me this does not inspire confidence that this person has the right kind of real world experience. Geoff on the other hand tends toward polo shirts and informal slacks or shorts, the _reality _of what any of us  might find ourselves wearing if we ever needed to use his principles.

Oh, and Geoff does have a whole section of writings of a therapeutic nature. Part of the reality of self defense is dealing with the after effects of hurting someone so badly they'll never be the same. Or how about admitting to the world that you're a recovering alcoholic? Not much self-promotion in  that kind of book or article. Anyway, just some contrasts in the two, and again, I did like many of the points you made.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 5, 2007)

Having been around the world and noticed how interested other martial artists from their own countries are interested in what American's are doing I think this type of interest is always present over something foreign.  It is kind've natural to be curious about something from some place else. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (it's exotic)


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## Tez3 (Jun 5, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> You make some good points, Sam, especially in how we tend to gloss over the American MAists for the Israeli-based, or Russian-based, for example. I have also found this a gross and unfair simplification.
> 
> But regarding the Jim Wagner and Geoff Thompson comparison, I have yet to see Geoff in an all-black SWAT outfit, wearing not one but two--that's right two--firearms and who knows how many bladed weapons, sprays, stun guns, etc., posed in a _boxing _stance. If you possess these weapons and the legal right to use them, _why risk a face off to box some idiot on the street_? To me this does not inspire confidence that this person has the right kind of real world experience. Geoff on the other hand tends toward polo shirts and informal slacks or shorts, the _reality _of what any of us might find ourselves wearing if we ever needed to use his principles.
> 
> *Oh, and Geoff does have a whole section of writings of a therapeutic nature. Part of the reality of self defense is dealing with the after effects of hurting someone so badly they'll never be the same. Or how about admitting to the world that you're a recovering alcoholic? Not much self-promotion in that kind of book or article.* Anyway, just some contrasts in the two, and again, I did like many of the points you made.


 
Absolutely! If you read Geoff's book "Watch my Back" you will find that he is far from promoting his style or classes.
Incindentally I have a signed paperback copy if anyone wants it, free to good home.


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## thetruth (Jun 6, 2007)

No worries. I haven't read Geoff's book so I was making an assumption.  I don't know how much of a boys club black belt mag is or how much politics goes in to selecting columnists but would they allow a chump to regularly write in their magazine?  I'm just curious about Jim Wagner more than others as I am looking at gaining accreditation in his 'style' early next year and any info would be good.  I have chosen his over the many others available here as I am able to use all intellectual properties relating to his organisations after I successfully complete the course and there are no monthly fees that have to be paid. You can become a paying member of his organisation and get updates etc but if you dont you can just go and do your own thing pretty much.  Now I don't know if this is to get it out there or if there is a genuine interest in helping people and not wanting to rip people off.  If anyone knows let me know

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Tez3 (Jun 6, 2007)

I've not read Black Belt mag, don't think I've ever seen it fo sale across here. I imagine there could be politics or at least martketing issues there though seems to be with magazines of all types though I think fashion ones maybe the worst lol!


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