# Attracted to the teacher?



## Knives (Dec 11, 2009)

So this might be the craziest thing you've heard of in a while.  What do you do if you're attracted to the master of your dojo?  Do you keep it hidden?  Do you go for it? This woman is about my age, and I feel like she's attracted to me as well.  I sometimes can't concentrate on the lesson because I'm so entranced by how pretty she is.  I feel like it would be horrible if I wen't for it since she is the teacher and I am the student.  Has anyone else been in this situation before??


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## Aikicomp (Dec 11, 2009)

Knives said:


> So this might be the craziest thing you've heard of in a while. What do you do if you're attracted to the master of your dojo? Do you keep it hidden? Do you go for it? This woman is about my age, and I feel like she's attracted to me as well. I sometimes can't concentrate on the lesson because I'm so entranced by how pretty she is. I feel like it would be horrible if I wen't for it since she is the teacher and I am the student. Has anyone else been in this situation before??


 

IMHO.......BIG MISTAKE. That's a can of worms you do not want to open.

Michael


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## Stuey (Dec 11, 2009)

A lot of times like these, the fantasy is much better than the reality. Just learn to control your thoughts and feelings as much as you can. Once a move is made or feelings confessed you cannot go back. It will never be the same. And there is probably less chance things would change for the better.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 11, 2009)

Bad idea. Just like having a relationship with your boss.
If you really want to go for it, find someone else to be your regular sensei. At the very least someone else should perform your grading. And if either of you breaks off the relationship, your dojo experience will suffer for it, and the entire dojo atmosphere might suffer for it.

If you are lovers first and then get a teacher-student relation as well, that would be possible, though it can be difficult too I guess. From teacher-student becoming lovers... that would be much harder and can cause problems for the entire dojo.

Just my 2 ct.


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 11, 2009)

It could go either way really.

But you must consider the cosequences of it going either way as well...

Possible resentment from classmates if it goes well for you.

Possibly losing your place to train if it does not go well for you.

Many things to consider and weigh before determining if it's worth the risk for you to pursue it. 

I do believe the popular concensus is that in the end it is a bad idea. Most likely because the risk it too high. 

Ultimately, it's your choice but you must consider all the possibilities. 

In the meantime... enjoy this:


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## Kajowaraku (Dec 11, 2009)

I have to say, it is difficult. My wife joined for training when I started teaching. We were together well before that though, and still it was difficult for both of us. While on the tatami their is no hubbie & wife, but teacher - student. You cannot give a different treatment to her, or in your case expect that. While i generally will push women less hard in pressuretraining (unless they're clearly up for it), it's important not to be too soft on them either. That would not be respectful of their capabilities. That said: if the woman you love is groaning in pain because of a bad fall or a punch that connected: it's nearly impossible not to be affected by it. The trick is not to act on that emotion any differently than you would if it were somebody else with the same characteristics (by which i mean that obviously if you know a student has a bad back for example, you won't expect him or her to do backflips).

On her part, the difficulty was that while in our relationship we discuss matters in an open dialogue, on the tatami there is no room for discussion. If the teacher corrects your technique, attitude (eg. no leaning against the walls, etc), or etiquette you accept it and say "hai sensei!". The complete opposite of what we do at home (at home I get to say "yes honey!" and accept it  .) 

However, the strict discipline on the tatami does help to maintain a healthy way of keeping both worlds seperated. It's clearly a different paradigm of dealing with each other, just because of these rules and the strict discipline. It makes things manageable, and disconnects both. I think if training would be very informal, and on first name basis, you'd easily revert to calling each other lurvnames on the mat too, and thus, if discipline or correction was somewhat enforced; it would be much more personal too, and you'd probably end up taking that feeling home after training.

Anyway, I've been teaching her for about a year now, and things have started to fall in place, finally. The main difficulty was my strong inclination to prevent her from getting hurt, and thus doing her short by the false assumption she can't manage herself, which she can.

However, It's great to be able to teach something you strongly believe in to your loved ones, but it's also exceedingly demanding and taxing. (not to mention tricky).

My advise to your situation though: be very, very careful.


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## Jade Tigress (Dec 11, 2009)

You might find this thread of interest:

Trust or Fancying - Emotional Aspects of Training and Student/Teacher Dating

:asian:


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## Ken Morgan (Dec 11, 2009)

How long have you been training? 

Not just inside a dojo, but we guys are really bad at picking up signals and we are really bad at interpreting those signals correctly. Many women are outgoing, fun, touchy, use word of affection and thats just who they are. Many guys will pick up on that as flirting/attraction aimed towards them.

Honestly I've had too many missed opportunities in my life, I say if you are reading the signals correctly, go for it. This may be the love of your life, and to do nothing about it would be a crime.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 11, 2009)

I have been involved in church choir for a very long time, and about six years ago, I found myself in the same position with one of the sopranos in the choir.  She was a longtime member and well respected.  

I thought that there was something there between us.  I gave it a *lot* of thought before saying anything to her about all of the possible consequences, up to and including leaving the choir is my talking to her about it made her uncomfortable.  

Turned out that there was something and we have been seeing eachother ever since, so it was a good decision.

Daniel


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## harlan (Dec 11, 2009)

Ignore it, and it will go away. 

Barring that, attraction in the dojo is a normal thing. I tend to think that if your teacher is keeping you mentally busy/focused, there isn't enough time to notice. I also think there should be a certain amount of FEAR to keep the respect levels necessary, and give a healthy whack to fantasy. To keep the mind from wandering down any 'what-if' paths.


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## MJS (Dec 11, 2009)

Knives said:


> So this might be the craziest thing you've heard of in a while. What do you do if you're attracted to the master of your dojo? Do you keep it hidden? Do you go for it? This woman is about my age, and I feel like she's attracted to me as well. I sometimes can't concentrate on the lesson because I'm so entranced by how pretty she is. I feel like it would be horrible if I wen't for it since she is the teacher and I am the student. Has anyone else been in this situation before??


 
I know people who have dated in the dojo and have made it work.  Yes, if you're not careful, thigns can take a fast downward spiral.  IMO, the dojo is there for training.  Much like working at a job with your spouse or significant other, it needs to be on a professional level.  In other words, don't argue about personal things, the hugging, handholding and kissing can wait until later.  Again, you're there to train.

I would take it slow and be cautious.  And again, most importantly, be professional.


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## jks9199 (Dec 11, 2009)

Just like a workplace relationship -- it can work.  Or it can be a disaster.  Either way -- it will effect your training and the harmony within the dojo.

Assess whether the risks are worth the possible rewards.  One possible option is to do something very neutral, like have coffee after class to discuss the class -- and be open to lessening the neutrality.


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## Ray B (Dec 11, 2009)

Don't dip your pen in the company ink.


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## wushuguy (Dec 11, 2009)

It may be very difficult, even if the feelings are mutual... remember what happened to Yang Guo and Xiao Long Nu... (referring to the TV show Return of the Condor Heroes)


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## Sukerkin (Dec 11, 2009)

Nothing to add to the advice pool here.  What I would have said has already been said.

However, thanks for the "Hot for Teacher" vid link!  I've not seen that for far too long.  Dave and Little Dave etc ... huzzar!


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## jarrod (Dec 11, 2009)

go for it.  worst that can happen is it doesn't work out & you move to a school where you can concentrate.


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## blindsage (Dec 11, 2009)

Sounds to me like a little infatuation beyond just general 'attraction'.  Being unable to concentrate because of how pretty she is, is not the same as a general attraction to the person.  Do yourself a favor and make an effort to detach yourself from your overwhelming physical attraction first.  If she's still interesting as a person, and you think she may be (honestly) attracted in return then think about approaching her, but take it slow and remember, despite what our culture teaches "love" does not trump all, you still have responsibilities to the school you train in, and should respect those first.


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## dancingalone (Dec 11, 2009)

I am married to my aikido instructor.  We actually met each other as students of another aikido teacher, although she has stayed on the aikido path longer than I have and so she is senior to me.  Now that we have moved to another state from our aikido teacher, I have chosen happily to continue my studies under her.

It works in her dojo, because we stay formal in our interactions and we're careful to work with other partners all the time.  Also my wife rarely chooses me as the uke to demonstrate upon.  In fact, someone relatively new to her school once asked me why Sensei didn't like me.  

From my perspective,  I am mindful to think of my wife only as my teacher when we are training.  In the dojo, she's the boss.  At home, it is a partnership (OK, she's really the boss there too  ).


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## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2009)

Whether she's your instructor or not, she's a martial artist, a pretty good one so make sure any approach, romantic or not, is polite or else you'll end up on the floor lol!


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## Archangel M (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't really agree that it's like the workplace..MA is really a hobby after all. You are paying to take the class anyway so IMO the responsibility would fall on the teacher. The issue would be the uncomfortableness if she doesn't feel the way you think she does, or if things go sour down the road.

Do it or don't do it just be prepared for the consequences if it goes wrong (or the rewards if it goes right).


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## shesulsa (Dec 11, 2009)

I'm generally not in favor of these relationships or sexual daliances or whatever they may be. I've done my share of flirting, but I've never carried things through beyond that and in retrospect, I'm quite happy I didn't.

You have to think ahead and figure out if you can both continue after splitting up, knowing the other might become attracted to others in the same training group, then whatever works for you.

To me, that was my spot to do my thing - I really didn't want to muddy things up with relationships that could hurt me or where I could hurt someone else emotionally. I also saw that usually when the couple split up it was usually the female (or the lower ranking member) who left.

If martial arts is a casual dallaince for you - a hobby - then do what you want. If you want to do this for a very long time ... then I'd advise you to think things over carefully and should you decide to proceed, do so carefully.

I know there are successful marriages in martial arts, but IMVHO, they are rarer than most would admit.

Good fortune and good training to you.


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## Milt G. (Dec 12, 2009)

Knives said:


> So this might be the craziest thing you've heard of in a while. What do you do if you're attracted to the master of your dojo? Do you keep it hidden? Do you go for it? This woman is about my age, and I feel like she's attracted to me as well. I sometimes can't concentrate on the lesson because I'm so entranced by how pretty she is. I feel like it would be horrible if I wen't for it since she is the teacher and I am the student. Has anyone else been in this situation before??


 
Hello...

If you are finished studying martial arts there, by all means, follow your infatuation.  Keep in mind that as situations change, sometimes feelings do as well.  Focus on your art.  The rest will fall into place in good time.  Or, not.

Remember, though; "If it was REALLY meant to be, it will be".

Follow the path and not the emotion.  The "path" will lead you where you want to be.  The "emotion" may not... 

Just my .02...  BTDT.

Thanks,
Milt G.


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## kingkong89 (Dec 13, 2009)

Its very simple its ok to have a relationship with whoever you want just keep it outside of the dojo dont mix business with pleasure


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 14, 2009)

You have to procede with a great deal of caution, but it _is_ possible to have both a personal and professional relationship with someone.

My wife and I are both ER nurses. We met in the ER more years ago than I care to admit (I cannot possibly really be that old...). We worked together for several years before we started dating. This coming May, we will have been together for 10 years, and married for 6. We go to the same TKD classes. We work in the same ER. We work the same _shifts_ in the same ER, and are generally caring for the same group of patients in the ER (we're both trauma junkies) working side by side. For the last 9 years, we have lived, commuted, worked, played, taught, learned and vacationed together.

It's not for everybody, but it works for us.


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## Archangel M (Dec 14, 2009)

I wonder. If this were a physical trainer at a gym, or a Yoga instructor, or a sports coach for some "hobby" sport , would people here subscribe to the same philosophy? Is this because "Martial Arts" are so much more important and the relationship between student/sensei SOOOO much deeper/mystical and life altering when compared to those "mundane" hobbies?


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## Big Don (Dec 14, 2009)

Ray B said:


> Don't dip your pen in the company ink.


Don't crap where you eat.


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## shesulsa (Dec 14, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I wonder. If this were a physical trainer at a gym, or a Yoga instructor, or a sports coach for some "hobby" sport , would people here subscribe to the same philosophy? Is this because "Martial Arts" are so much more important and the relationship between student/sensei SOOOO much deeper/mystical and life altering when compared to those "mundane" hobbies?



Yep. I feel that way about work, training and generally everything else.  Of course, I'm married, but I've never liked the idea of dating someone I worked with or trained with. I did the opposite once, actually - trained under my boyfriend who later became my husband.  That didn't work out well for me and I fully acknowledge that this was because of the nature of the relationship. I'm no longer with that mistake.

Sorry, I get enough drama in my life without consciously creating more for myself, thank you.


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2009)

Do remember though it's the things you don't do that you regret when you are old. If only....probably the saddest words in the English langauge.


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## Ken Morgan (Dec 14, 2009)

Ah, TEZ beat me to it. Though I said something similar earlier. I agree with her 100%, have no regrets.

So where are we at? You've gotten tonnes of opinions, any idea as to what you're going to do?


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## jks9199 (Dec 14, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I wonder. If this were a physical trainer at a gym, or a Yoga instructor, or a sports coach for some "hobby" sport , would people here subscribe to the same philosophy? Is this because "Martial Arts" are so much more important and the relationship between student/sensei SOOOO much deeper/mystical and life altering when compared to those "mundane" hobbies?


I would.  I've not said it's automatically a bad thing, just like a workplace relationship isn't always a bad thing.  But it's something to weigh carefully.  It will change some of the dynamics of the training, the workplace, or the gym.

Anytime there is a potential power difference between the two, or anytime that the relationship can have a significant effect on other people, you have to be cautious and weigh the risks.  Or if a failed relationship would likely mean you would have to drop the activity... you should give it thought.  And, sometimes, it's probably a better choice to wait and move very slowly -- if at all.


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## Archtkd (Dec 14, 2009)

Knives said:


> What do you do if you're attracted to the master of your dojo?  Do you keep it hidden?  Do you go for it? This woman is about my age, and I feel like she's attracted to me as well.  I sometimes can't concentrate on the lesson because I'm so entranced by how pretty she is.  I feel like it would be horrible if I wen't for it since she is the teacher and I am the student.  Has anyone else been in this situation before??


 
There seems to be a general assumption here that your teacher will go for your moves, but we all know romance is a two way street. Your effort is likely to backfire if your teacher has been in the martial arts business for a long time. That said, you are an adult and life is too short. If you feel strongly about this woman go for it and honestly state your case. Risk rejection, and stare at the prospect of losing face and a good teacher. Often things like this simply come down to: what do you really want in life?


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## Archangel M (Dec 14, 2009)

I have to wonder though, is it really the equivalent of a boss/subordinate relationship? In this situation YOU are paying THEM for a service...who is "the boss"?


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## jks9199 (Dec 14, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I have to wonder though, is it really the equivalent of a boss/subordinate relationship? In this situation YOU are paying THEM for a service...who is "the boss"?


Is it perfectly equivalent?  No.  But do a lot of the same headaches a workplace relationship apply?  Yeah, I think so.

We pretty consistently seem to think it's a bad idea for teachers to be involved with students, or professionals personally involved with clients.  Colleges get very concerned with professors dating students -- even with older/non-traditional "returning students", for example.  

I, myself, see a lot of potential concerns.  That's not to say that it cannot or will not work.  But it is something that I would be cautious about.  It'd effect the dynamic in class, no matter what happens.


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## Archangel M (Dec 14, 2009)

On a slight tangent..how many cop marriages/relationship have you seen? What happens when one gets promoted? This issue is everywhere. My PD has no written policy on the issue yet.


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## jks9199 (Dec 14, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> On a slight tangent..how many cop marriages/relationship have you seen? What happens when one gets promoted? This issue is everywhere. My PD has no written policy on the issue yet.


We're a small agency; we don't have restrictions on dating, though you aren't supposed to supervise someone you're dating/married/involved in a domestic partnership with.  Which means that we actually have a significant limitation on who can work on what squad or which assignments since there are a few couples in the department.  And when one broke up, it didn't change anything because it wasn't a congenial break up, so they still can't work together...

Which highlights the concern in this case; the relationship will have an impact on the class, no matter what.  If it's a success, it'll effect things one way.  If she's not interested -- it'll effect the student another way, and may effect how she conducts class to avoid the problem in the future.  And if it bombs after a while, it could end up driving one or both from the class...  Again -- the only question is, recognizing the possiblities, do you want to go forward?


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## Archtkd (Dec 14, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I have to wonder though, is it really the equivalent of a boss/subordinate relationship? In this situation YOU are paying THEM for a service...who is "the boss"?



This is a very good question, but I think martial arts studios fall in a class akin to that of places of worship or offices of professionals such as doctors, dentists, lawyers and psychologists. All those professions ban or strongly discourage fraternization with clients, patients or members. I believe that's because this  are professions in which, like martial arts, the client/provider relationship extends beyond  immediate and physical needs. I also think there's an understanding that the providers of  the mentioned services have power over the client who seek their help in the form of specialized education and practical knowledge.


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## Archangel M (Dec 14, 2009)

I think we westerners put far too much "mumbo jumbo" into the martial arts, personally. Do it or don't as long as you are aware of the risks. Overblowing martial arts training creates an environment ripe for cultism and false senses of over-importance IMO.


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## jks9199 (Dec 14, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I think we westerners put far too much "mumbo jumbo" into the martial arts, personally. Do it or don't as long as you are aware of the risks. Overblowing martial arts training creates an environment ripe for cultism and false senses of over-importance IMO.


I agree with that; a martial arts teacher is just a martial arts teacher.  Not much different than any other coach in many cases.  But I'd be concerned if a coach or trainer began dating a student/client, too.

My concern in this case is simply that, almost no matter what happens, there will be an effect on the class.  If the OP is willing to face that possibility, go for it.  If not -- then he needs to focus until the infatuation (which is all it is at this point) fades.


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## Archtkd (Dec 14, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I think we westerners put far too much "mumbo jumbo" into the martial arts, personally. Do it or don't as long as you are aware of the risks. Overblowing martial arts training creates an environment ripe for cultism and false senses of over-importance IMO.


 
It might help if you could kindly expound on the "mumbo jumbo" and "overblowing martial arts training." 

These are my general thoughts, which have nothing to do with cultism or a false sense of over importance: If you've diligently practiced a martial art or sport, for more than a decade, and you are training people in the said art or sport, it implies you have specialized knowledge comparable to or even more than some licenced professionals -- doctors, attorneys, etc. 

That specialized knowledge means you owe your students/clients an added duty of care, as would be expected of any trained professional. The knowledge and position of martial arts instructor or sports coach also implicitly gives you a position of responsibility over your students/clients. 

These, by the way, are not Western theories. They are universal ideals practiced by good teachers and professional around the world.


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## Archangel M (Dec 14, 2009)

I don't think any teacher I pay to train me is "over me". Or has any responsibility "for me". A couple of hours 2-3 times a week makes nobody my "master".


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## Archangel M (Dec 14, 2009)

What about relationships w/fellow students? That can effect the class dynamic as well.


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## Laurentkd (Dec 14, 2009)

How you act is ultimately up to you, but know that by acting on it will change the environment of the school and your role in it, regardless the outcome.
As a female instructor myself, I will tell you right now that I will never date a student.  Like JKS and Arch have both mentioned lately, when someone has authority over another person, the relationship is going to be "weird" and there are going to be consequences. This is not making martial arts something special, I believe it stands for any teacher student or coach athlete relationship.  I am not going to date a student and then deal with the issues that will bring- disrespect on the floor that is only meant as playful teasing, hurt personal feelings when correction is given in training, perceived favoritism seen by other students.  The list goes on and on.  My professional reputation is worth more to me than dating one of my students. Period. 
Now.... say Mr. Right walked through that door and happened to be wearing a yellow belt.  Say he says he wants to take me out and I am interested.  I would have to be VERY interested because I would tell him if he wants to take me on a date he can no longer be my student, no matter how the date goes.  If you are willing to take this risk then go for it.  But understand, your training will never be the same.


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## Laurentkd (Dec 14, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> What about relationships w/fellow students? That can effect the class dynamic as well.


 

Yup.  I bet I have seen about half a dozen relationship begin between students.  All of them ended poorly and in every case either one or both people quit martial arts.

It changes the dynamic.  It very likely will be a hard road to go down, so just really make sure it is worth it to you.


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## Archangel M (Dec 14, 2009)

Laurentkd said:


> Yup. I bet I have seen about half a dozen relationship begin between students. All of them ended poorly and in every case either one or both people quit martial arts.
> 
> It changes the dynamic. It very likely will be a hard road to go down, so just really make sure it is worth it to you.


 
Great points. Im not arguing FOR or AGAINST class relationships. I don't really think there is anything right or wrong with them per se. They just come with risks...as does any decision. Just be aware of them and be willing to live with your decision.


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## jks9199 (Dec 15, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> What about relationships w/fellow students? That can effect the class dynamic as well.


Same issues -- though to a bit of a lesser extent.  I would suggest again that the student balance the risks...  Would they continue to be comfortable in class with someone who dumped them?  Or simply wasn't interested?  Did you ever ask someone out in a college or high-school class, and when they turned you down, find the class to be a little uncomfortable?  Or change the dynamics in the class?


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## chungdokwan123 (Dec 15, 2009)

Knives said:


> So this might be the craziest thing you've heard of in a while.  What do you do if you're attracted to the master of your dojo?  Do you keep it hidden?  Do you go for it? This woman is about my age, and I feel like she's attracted to me as well.  I sometimes can't concentrate on the lesson because I'm so entranced by how pretty she is.  I feel like it would be horrible if I wen't for it since she is the teacher and I am the student.  Has anyone else been in this situation before??



You've encountered a rather interesting situation, haven't you?

1st point:  There's nothing sexier than a pretty woman in a MA uniform.  Resting solely upon that notion, the natural inclination would be to suggest..........hit it..........and with a loud Giyap.

Yet there is a more important component to your conundrum.  I agree with what seems to be the majority of opinion here that a relationship with the instructor will undoubtedly change the dynamic of the class.......at least to some degree........at least for a short while.  It can be accommodated by all, but that depends primarily on how you and the instructor handle the situation.  If the instructor is respected enough that she will be given the benefit of the doubt that no favoritism will tolerated in any event, then this could work out.  

2nd point:  What you have to sort out is if this is a mere infatuation or something of more substance.  If it is only a fleeting fascination, then you have to consider the possibility that it is not worth the likely headaches that will result....for all concerned.

I like this short and sweet comment:



> *Laurentkd*
> It changes the dynamic.  It very likely will be a hard road to go down, so just really make sure it is worth it to you.


I've come to see that the main regrets one has in life are the chances you don't take.  The flip side to that bit of wisdom is that those chances you take do affect other people to some degree.

Therefore, put enough time and thought into what this really means to you and decide what this truly represents.

I'd be willing to bet that there are any number of people on this forum who would like to suggest that they've plowed this particular field before.  They'd also likely relay the fact that you will unearth one hell of a lot of rocks.  

Why?

Because people like to watch the farmer work, and they're often jealous of the field he is plowing.


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## Archtkd (Dec 15, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I don't think any teacher I pay to train me is "over me". Or has any responsibility "for me". A couple of hours 2-3 times a week makes nobody my "master".


 
That's an interesting perspective. I wonder what many dojang owner, parents, attorneys, insurers, judges, educators, sports regulators and psychologists would say about that. A good instructor, we would agree, helps a student become a good martial artist by training them a couple of hours, two to three times a week, for a number of years. A bad instructor, many of us understand, could cause a student permanent physical or psychological damage in a lot less time.


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## jarrod (Dec 15, 2009)

i tend to agree with archangel on this...i have a ton of respect for my coaches, but as much as i like martial arts as well as eastern culture & history, i usually relate to my coaches in a very western context.  anyway before i get into a ramble on the subculture of martial arts, i don't think an MA instructor has any more or less influence on a student then a football coach has on his athletes.  classical MA "wisdom" makes the student far too subservient to his instructors.  yes, the student needs the instructor's expertise, but the instructor needs students to keep his school open.  

my grappling coach holds two 7th dans, one in judo & one in jujitsu.  he prefers to be called coach rather then sensei, & really dislikes the title "master".  he'll usually just shrug & say "everyone is a master of something".  it's much easier for me to train with people like this, i think it shows a much more realistic approach to the student/teacher relationship at least as it exists in the modern western context.  by this i mean that being accepted as a student no longer means living in the dojo & swearing off all other instruction.  the nature of the relationship is not the same here & now as it was at the origins of martial instruction, yet some want to treat it the same.

jf


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## Archtkd (Dec 15, 2009)

I think we might be getting into a semantics jam here and getting off the track of this thread. That could partly be my fault. 

When I write about instructors, teachers, masters or coaches, I'm referring to the modern type of well trained experts that many of us here in the U.S. know: Teachers who care for and respect their students. This teachers can be called by different names.

In more than 20 years of practicing Taekwondo in the U.S and overseas, I have not, and hope never to meet, a teacher, who expects me to be their serf, servant, or sworn disciple. I even dislike "modern" Taekwondo teachers who expect their juniors to teach and automatically help them run dojangs, without compensation of any kind.


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## Archangel M (Dec 15, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i tend to agree with archangel on this...i have a ton of respect for my coaches, but as much as i like martial arts as well as eastern culture & history, i usually relate to my coaches in a very western context.  anyway before i get into a ramble on the subculture of martial arts, i don't think an MA instructor has any more or less influence on a student then a football coach has on his athletes.  classical MA "wisdom" makes the student far too subservient to his instructors.  yes, the student needs the instructor's expertise, but the instructor needs students to keep his school open.
> 
> my grappling coach holds two 7th dans, one in judo & one in jujitsu.  he prefers to be called coach rather then sensei, & really dislikes the title "master".  he'll usually just shrug & say "everyone is a master of something".  it's much easier for me to train with people like this, i think it shows a much more realistic approach to the student/teacher relationship at least as it exists in the modern western context.  by this i mean that being accepted as a student no longer means living in the dojo & swearing off all other instruction.  the nature of the relationship is not the same here & now as it was at the origins of martial instruction, yet some want to treat it the same.
> 
> jf




EXACTLY!

I don't think that comparing a MA's instructor to an attorney, psychologist, judge or parents equates.


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## Telfer (Dec 15, 2009)

jarrod said:


> By this i mean that being accepted as a student no longer means living in the dojo & swearing off all other instruction. The nature of the relationship is not the same here & now as it was at the origins of martial instruction, yet some want to treat it the same.


In the far east, the master student relationship is patterned after the Xiao Jing  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiao_Jing ideals of loyalty to a social order where everyone knows their rank.

Back in the 80s, there was one dojo in my town where the students could not attain the higher ranks until they had *proven* their loyalty to the master...who would take them to a bar, start a fight, and have the student finish it for him.


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## Archtkd (Dec 15, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> EXACTLY!
> 
> I don't think that comparing a MA's instructor to an attorney, psychologist, judge or parents equates.



When a thread spins in so many directions it's easy to be misunderstood. My reference to insurers, dojang owners, attorneys, psychologist, judges and parents in my last post, was meant to imply those groups of people generally expect martial artists instructors and athletic coaches to have a higher professional duty of care when handling students/clients in their charge.

In another post I argued that the relationships that many people have with martial arts instructors or athletic coaches could be compared to those that people sometimes form with professionals such as attorneys, doctors or psychologists. Those professions bar or discourage formation of romantic relations with clients for various reasons, many of which might apply to martial arts instructors and athletic coaches. Also many good martial artists and athletic coaches also put in as much, if not more, time and effort to acquire their skills, as members of many regulated and licensed professions.


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## Flea (Dec 15, 2009)

Knives,

If you're worried about the teacher/student dynamic and dating, why not just switch to a different dojo entirely?  Then ask her out, sans all that baggage.


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## K831 (Dec 15, 2009)

If I had kept it a secret when I was attracted to my wife, I wouldn't be married. 

She worked in the same office I did at the time. 

And, yet, I consider it the best decision I've ever made.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Dec 16, 2009)

Consider this, people...where the heck are we supposed to meet eligible dating partners? If we can't date people from work, and we can't date people from any outside activity that we really care about (such as martial arts), and we can't date people we meet in a professional capacity (our doctors, lawyers, etc) then we are left with sleazy bar pickups or the internet.

My advice is this: don't date someone with whom there is a disparity in power (don't date your sensei, your professor or your boss). Feel free to date anyone else, as long as there are no rules against it. And throughout the whole process, act like an adult. If you date someone in your dojo, don't send them special little looks across the mat or eagerly volunteer to be their technique dummy. Keep everything in its place...you are there to train, not to hook up.


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## KELLYG (Dec 16, 2009)

Here are my 02 worth.  I think that people place too much importance on status inside a Dojo, who is what belt level.   If you are attracted to your instructor and feel she is attracted to you as well, and both are adults and single I say do what your heart tells you do. I think that Master level Martial artists are knowledgeable it their area of expertise but they do not hold the same sway that a doctor, lawyer, or your direct boss does over your life.   They are just people there is nothing mystical about it.


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## blindsage (Dec 16, 2009)

If people don't see the potential for conflict in an instructor-student relationship, then those people are being willfully blind.  

If individuals think that they could handle it and be mature so everybody should be able to do the same, then individuals are projecting context that may or may not (more likely) be there.


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## Archangel M (Dec 16, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> Consider this, people...where the heck are we supposed to meet eligible dating partners? If we can't date people from work, and we can't date people from any outside activity that we really care about (such as martial arts), and we can't date people we meet in a professional capacity (our doctors, lawyers, etc) then we are left with sleazy bar pickups or the internet.



Exactly. Most dating advice you see these days tell people to pick up hobbies/activities in order to meet people with similar interests.


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## Carol (Dec 16, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> Consider this, people...where the heck are we supposed to meet eligible dating partners? If we can't date people from work, and we can't date people from any outside activity that we really care about (such as martial arts), and we can't date people we meet in a professional capacity (our doctors, lawyers, etc) then we are left with sleazy bar pickups or the internet.



The internet is really really great


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## Archangel M (Dec 16, 2009)

blindsage said:


> If people don't see the potential for conflict in an instructor-student relationship, then those people are being willfully blind.
> 
> If individuals think that they could handle it and be mature so everybody should be able to do the same, then individuals are projecting context that may or may not (more likely) be there.



I think that people are manufacturing an equivalence between martial arts instruction and other professions that isn't there IMO.

All of life is risk/reward.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Dec 17, 2009)

Carol said:


> The internet is really really great


 
I met my ex-husband on the internet. I learned my lesson. From now on I only date men I meet in real life, in the normal course of events. Because you start talking to some guy on the internet, and he is SO PERFECT and you think he is The One, but you're basing all of your feelings on your emotions and your intellect and not your reptilian brain. I have a lot of faith in the reptilian brain with respect to making mate choice decisions.


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## searcher (Dec 17, 2009)

I would say you need to slow down and think before you act.

Now that is me, the kettle, calling you, the pot, black.    I met my wife while I was teaching at a karate school.     I was not the head instructor, but an instructor none the less.     For me, it was difficult, since the head instructor was dead-set against us dating.    I was, however, prepared to leave teaching there and move on to another school.     It worked out for us, but we did end up leaving, for other reasons.


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## Archtkd (Dec 17, 2009)

Its interesting how this thread has spun. A gentleman asks if its kosher to make romantic moves on his martial arts instructor and heres how some of us have tried to help him: encourage and empower the man by trying to demystify the non-existent mysticism of the instructor and almost belittle her professional role. The tone from some of us even seems to suggest that the gentleman make his move because the instructor is after all just a mere athletic coach that he is paying. Its as if athletic coaches are not trained, ethical, professional people, who continue to make our communities better every day. Theres always a few bad apples of course, but thats in every profession, if I can even be allowed to use that term.

I dont think my experience is unique. Ive had a number of WTF Taekwondo teachers over the last 23 years who have a significant amount of education in addition to being a very experienced martial artists. Some have graduate and post graduate education in fields including education, pharmacy, kinesiology and law. Im sure a number of MT members here  who teach and own studios  have the same if not more academic and practical qualifications. They are people I would put up against many doctors, psychologists, lawyers and engineers, any day, when it comes to raw intellect, professional development and standard. 

There is no Eastern mysticism, American cultism or African pungu-pungu philosophies associated with the said instructors/coaches/masters. They  and others without higher education  are just good martial arts teachers, who also happen to know one or two things about life that they pass on to their students. They also understand how getting romantically involved with their students to say the least is ethically risky and bad for business. They apply the same rationale used by many professionals. Some of us might ask: how dare they?


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## Archangel M (Dec 17, 2009)

Perhaps that because TKD is more "business" than anything else in the US. :uhyeah:


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## Archangel M (Dec 17, 2009)

Anyway..unless you are the dojo owner, most of the BB instructors I have met are paying students at the school as well...so if a woman and I start class together and I get promoted to BB and an instructor I can no longer have a relationship with her?


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## blindsage (Dec 17, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I think that people are manufacturing an equivalence between martial arts instruction and other professions that isn't there IMO.


I agree.  But MA instruction is still a student/teacher relationship.



> All of life is risk/reward.


Ok, and?


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## KELLYG (Dec 17, 2009)

Archtkd
Just a couple of responses to your post 


encourage and empower the man by trying to demystify the non-existent mysticism of the instructor and almost belittle her professional role.
From my point of view no one here has attempted to belittle the female instructors profession or her roll in it.   I was merely suggesting that she Jane he Tarzan if the feeling is mutual what is the big deal?

 just a mere athletic coach that he is paying. Its as if athletic coaches are not trained, ethical, professional people, who continue to make our communities better every day. I agree that most Martial art instructors, good ones, are not just coaches however they are people and poop behind two shoes just like I do.

 Some have graduate and post graduate education in fields including education, pharmacy, kinesiology and law. I also agree that, some Martial Art's instructors are educated beyond a high school level and some if not most are also well versed in law, physical education, business etc etc.  Guess what some of the students that take classes are just as educated as they are.  

I think that what two people do on their own time off is their business, it involves only the two people involved.  If they are adult and responsible enough to handle life on the training floor and life off the training floor together the who am I to say that they can not behave in a manner the they deem as being appropriate.   Now if you are an instructor and in your heart of hearts you feel that there would be a problem dating a student then by all means don't.


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## blindsage (Dec 17, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Anyway..unless you are the dojo owner, most of the BB instructors I have met are paying students at the school as well...so if a woman and I start class together and I get promoted to BB and an instructor I can no longer have a relationship with her?


I know some people are saying that, I'm not.  I'm saying there are specific factors to take into account in both how this person approaches the situation _and_ how others provide advice to that person.  Nobody here knows the actual maturity level of the OP, but most of us are giving advice (either direction) based on a surface analysis of the situation.  

Can you have a successful relationship with your MA instructor?  Sure.
Are there plenty of examples of situations where this worked out?  Of course.
Where it didn't?  Of course.
Are there plenty of example of failed relationships that affected the training of the individuals and/or of the school itself?  Definitely.

I'd like the OP to take this into account and look at the whys of the last question, generally issues of maturity, and weigh his own and how he's approaching the situation.  Some people take this too far and say that people should never have these kinds of relationships.  I disagree, but people should think about it.

If you could handle a situation like this, that's great.  But assuming everyone can handle it because some can just isn't reality.


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## Cirdan (Dec 17, 2009)

Knives said:


> So this might be the craziest thing you've heard of in a while. What do you do if you're attracted to the master of your dojo? Do you keep it hidden? Do you go for it? This woman is about my age, and I feel like she's attracted to me as well. I sometimes can't concentrate on the lesson because I'm so entranced by how pretty she is. I feel like it would be horrible if I wen't for it since she is the teacher and I am the student. Has anyone else been in this situation before??


 
Go for it. Worst thing that can happen you must find yourself a new dojo. Life is too short and we need a new generation of little MAists :lol:


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2009)

Just a couple of things, KellyG, I love your expressions! I agree with you as well.
The decision whether to date isn't ours, it isn't even the OPs, it's the lady in question. she may just not feel the same way, if she does and wants to take it further, good on her. *Her decision*, who are we to be sanctamonious about it!


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## celtic_crippler (Dec 17, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> I met my ex-husband on the internet. I learned my lesson. From now on I only date men I meet in real life, in the normal course of events. Because you start talking to some guy on the internet, and he is SO PERFECT and you think he is The One, but you're basing all of your feelings on your emotions and your intellect and not your reptilian brain. I have a lot of faith in the reptilian brain with respect to making mate choice decisions.


 
Would have never guessed based on your avatar. LOL

It's the OP's decision whether or not to pursue it. She can yes or no. Perhaps maybe....

There are several possible outcomes, both negative and positive (many possibilites have been stated already). The OP has to consider them all, weigh the risk, and then make a decision. 

That's it really. 'nuff said.


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