# Why "Knife arts" will get you killed



## Shadow Hunter

This has been on my mind for a long time.

Why is it that most styles that claim to teach knives and knife defenses will get you killed if you actually face a knife unarmed?

Here is my view on the matter.

Some arts, most noteably south east Asian arts, tend to teach the knife. In their cultures you can't get from point A to B without using a machete, so the chance of meeting someone with one is very high. So you learn how to face a machete with a machete.

If you do not have a machete, you will at least have a work knife. So you can expect everyone else to be carrying one as well. Add to this a culture where everyone is worried about their face and combine a dash of dueling culture and you end up with arts that put great emphisis on knife against knife from the front and only one opponent.

If that is what you are facing, this works out great.

If you are in this culture and you are unarmed, you will be facing people who have trained to use knives against others with knives. They will not do certain things because the other guy can do so much damage against them if they have a knife. So you know what type of moves you will face.

But what if the other guy is training to take out people who do not have knives? What if the other guy is not a part of a culture that has a strong dueling culture and instead places great importance on just killing the other guy when he can't fight back?

Sad to say, in America today there are not many people who are looking for a knife fight. They can get _killed_ if they face a knife. They would much rather stick a knife in you when you can't use one on them. They don't want the glory of a duel, the just want the kill you.

In that case, wouldn't they train and do things differently than someone who is training against another knife? Yet so much of what we know as knife defense comes from arts that only deal with duelest- oriented mentalities.

I do not mean to brag but, every single FMA or knife guru I know of would die if they did what they do unarmed against me with a knife. I would have to deal with some bruises and injuries from what they would do to me, but I would only have to tag them a few times to kill them. If we both had knives, the dynamics would change. But if I really wanted to kill them I would not attack them while they had a knife. So what they do is not suited for the strategy I would use when I _knew_ that the only knife in the fight was mine. If they had a knife and got it out, I would run. If they tried their stuff that works against someone used to fighting another person with a knife I would kill them. That is not bragging, it is just the reality of the situation.

I can expect a lot of people to scream about this. But I will stand by my position. I know how to kill the typical guy who calls himself a knife fighter. If he is unarmed and I have a knife then I will be able to take advantage of his conventional thinking and stick him repeatedly while only taking some minor damage in return. It is not pretty, it is not duelling and it is not knife "fighting". It is a way of killing someone who has no knife with knife _every time._ And the more used you are to knife fighting, the more vulnerable you are to the techniques.

Comments?


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## OULobo

This feels like a baited comment, but sometimes the best way to deal with a trap is to spring it. 

I think, first off the key is cross training. I cross into combatives, FMAs, LEO, grappling, ect. stuff as much as possible. These tend to put a stop to the idea of "duels". 

Second is realism training. This is the easiest thing to do if you have a partner who is willing. Try as many situations (multiple attackers, different dress, different weapons) and settings (dark, rain, blaring sun) as possible or available. 

Third is awarness. The only way to train this, besides examining your lifestyle and habits, is to test it. My friends and partners are constantly attacking me and me them, mostly when I'm not expecting it. This isn't just in the gym either. I have friends that sneak up on me in bars, on the street, anywhere. They usually just fire a kick, slip on a choke or give me a finger jab to the ribs. It lets me know where the holes in my awarness are. The only problem I see in this is that I am not giving my all in these situations and that is a bad habit to get into, but a better way to keep my friends around. 

I think that most everything else can be covered in the gym with innovative training and sparring.

As for the "assasin" vibe I'm catching here, I don't make enemies with that much motivation to kill; I almost always have a, or multiple knives on me, if not then at least some "adapted" weapons (pens, chopsticks, keychains); finally, most of the time I don't have enough ego to mess with anyone attacking past the first shot with a weapon, I'm outta there.


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## Phil Elmore

> I do not mean to brag but, every single FMA or knife guru I know of would die if they did what they do unarmed against me with a knife.


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## lhommedieu

> I know how to kill the typical guy who calls himself a knife fighter



Problem is, there are plenty who

a. Are not typical
b. Don't call themselves knife fighters

Good luck in your martial arts training.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Shadow Hunter

So far no one seems to understand.

Ask yourself these three questions.

1- are you willing to take a blow to give a blow? To some the answer will be no, bigger people tend to say yes. And a lot of people will answer that they will take a minor blow to give a better blow. This is an unarmed vs unarmed response. (U vsU)

2- are you willing to take a knife thrust to deliever your own knife thrust tot he other guy? Now the answers really start to end up in the "no' catagory. It is quite possible to deliver a thrust that kills the other guy in a knife fight, stagger a few feet and collapse dead yourself. So you tend to be more cautious when you are armed vs armed (A vs A) than U vs U.

Now, you watch a typical knife art class and you will see people attacking others with knives. When both guys have knives, the attacker attacks in certain ways. But when only one guy has the knife _he attacks the same way as when he was facing a guy with a knife!!!!_ 

Now ask yourself my last question,

3- would you be willing to take a broken rib to stick your knife in the other guys heart? All of a sudden you start to see a lot more hands raise up, eh? So if you are willing to take a few blows, get a black eye and such in order to kill the other guy, wouldn't you be doing something  a lot less cautious than the number 2 scenario? So why are all the knife defenses you see in the typical 'knife art' meant to deal with someone attacking like they were facing another knife?

Give me a knife and let me loose against someone who has trained in a FMA or knife art and I will kill them if they don't have a knife. That may sound like bragging- but it is only my experience. It is not really my abilities, it is the fact that the knife _when used correctly_ gives such an overwhelming advantage. I have yet to meet anyone who could overcome this advantage whom studies a knife art. Most never even have faced training partners who attack like the Gracies rather than another FMA stylist.

This is why studying a knife art can get you killed. You think too much inside the box and tend not to realize that some people will risk broken bones to carve out your heart.


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## Cuentada

Give me a knife and let me loose against someone who has trained in a FMA or knife art and I will kill them if they don't have a knife. That may sound like bragging- but it is only my experience. 

- hmmm maybe it is only your experience, but in combat there are no absolutes just opportunities....i'm sure FMAs have knife neutralizations no? I'd hazard to guess that most FMAs DO think outside the box, and if they don't they're living on Fantasy Island.


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## Phil Elmore

> Give me a knife and let me loose against someone who has trained in a FMA or knife art and I will kill them if they don't have a knife. That may sound like bragging-



Yes, it does.


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## OULobo

I don't think I buy all that. I think that FMAs have already dealt with any scenario you can think of and I don't think they are "duel based" either. That may be how some people are teaching it or how it has been westernized in America, but most filipinos will tell you about the crime in the Philippine's city's barrios and how people get stabbed from the shadows, in crowds, by groups, in groups, ect. I think most of your statements are also a little saturated in generalities (or ego).


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## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *I don't think I buy all that. I think that FMAs have already dealt with any scenario you can think of and I don't think they are "duel based" either.*



I can only speak from my decades of experience of course, but so far I have not run across anyone who practices a knife centered art that could stand up unarmed to some of the nasty moves that are being taught in some corners of the world on using a knife to kill someone.

But they all think they can until I prove them otherwise. Within a few minutes I can teach them the nasty moves and then they can turn the tables on me. I would not go up against many of them on a knife to knife combat, but few criminals would take that chance anyways. 

Again, this is just my experience after a few decades of a learning nasty stuff.


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## Joe Talmadge

I've just started training, so feel free to ignore whatever I say.  But I've heard of many drills that seem to address the issues raised here.  Here's one: one guy is the "bad guy", he launches an aggressive street-style or prison-style attack without regard for defense.  He continues until the good guy has disarmed, immobilized, or "killed" him (variations include good guy having knife in pocket at first, having to make space and draw before defending).  

This drill seems to me to be one of several aimed at the above situation, where dueling isn't part of the equation.  Slap on a fencing mask (so you can allow knife attacks to the face) and allow strikes and you've probably gotten as close as you can in a training situation to the most likely type of attack you'd face on the street ... I mean, right?  

If the main point is that we should be training for realistic scenarios -- and I agree strongly that a prison-style all-offense attack is by far the most likely -- then I agree with that point.  But certainly, the FMA guys who are training me do their best to train and drill for this scenario, including high-intensity hard-contact drills.

Joe
heelh00k@yahoo.com <- note zeroes in the word "h00k"


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## Shadow Hunter

Ok,
Joe made a point that I would like to address.

yes, some arts do scenarios that deal with realistic attacks. They still do not seem to do the _really_ nasty stuff that I have been taught. (Again- just my experience over the years.)

However, everyone seems to get a woody over how one style can whip the butt of another art if they both get into a ring with knives. Thus, knife on knife training and outlook dominates the way "knife arts" are practiced. They just have problems even thinking in another manner and they develop dangerous blind spots. They think they are doing realistic drills, but the stuff they are not aware that they don't know is the thing that causes problems with reality based training.

It would make more sense, in my experience, to let the students practice being wolves with knives against the unarmed sheep for a while. Once they know how the wolf thinks, it is time to start learning how to deal with them.

Most knife arts instead start off with two dogs fighting to be alpha male.:shrug:


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## OULobo

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *I can only speak from my decades of experience of course, but so far I have not run across anyone who practices a knife centered art that could stand up unarmed to some of the nasty moves that are being taught in some corners of the world on using a knife to kill someone.
> 
> Again, this is just my experience after a few decades of a learning nasty stuff. *



If you don't mind me asking, where did you pick up these moves?


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## OULobo

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Ok,
> 
> It would make more sense, in my experience, to let the students practice being wolves with knives against the unarmed sheep for a while. Once they know how the wolf thinks, it is time to start learning how to deal with them.
> 
> Most knife arts instead start off with two dogs fighting to be alpha male. *



I'm starting to see your point, but I think that what you are advocating is already being done in certain circles that are FMA influenced, if not based. In some of my training, albeit not FMA, we have done exactly what you just mentioned, we even call it wolf pack training. It is basically how to attack as a group with weapons against a single person or possibly two people. The focus is on the attackers, not the defenders. Some instructors will tell you that attacking a single target is dangerous if you are not coordinated with your fellow attackers. Sadly the assumption is that the defender is done no matter what.


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## Phil Elmore

> I can only speak from my decades of experience of course


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## kenpo2dabone

Shadow Hunter,

You seem to be very willing to kill anyone who threatens you. Correct me if I am wrong but say for instance you and I happen to strole into the same bar. You decide you don't like the way I am looking at your girl friend. You come up to me to confront me about it and I tell you to take a flying..."whatever" and swing at you. Lets even say I make good contact to your jaw. I am unarmed. You are saying that you would pull out a knife and kill me over that. Guess what, you are going to jail for the rest of your life or at least a very long time. The point is you have not only stopped my life but you have ruined yours.  Not to mention if you have any conscience at all you have to deal with the moral dilemma that yoiu have put yourself in. 

I would also be willing to bet that the people who train in knife arts probably carry one with them in a manner which leaves it accessible for them to use it. To assume otherwise  will get you  killed. I would say that this pretty much mutes your point of going against someone who trains with a knife and having them not pull it out to defend themselves against a knife wielding attacker. 

Respectfully,

Mike Miller UKF


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## Joe Talmadge

It's fine to point out that dueling is not reality-based.  On the other hand, a perusal through a newspaper for a few weeks should also indicate to you that an encounter with a trained FMAer is probably even lower probability and even less reality-based.  I understand what you're saying about going up unarmed against an FMA-trained fighter, but reality is that if you end up in a confrontation that involves a knife, it will be against someone untrained (e.g., run of the mill thug or crackhead) or someone "trained" in prison knife techniques (admitedly effective but NOT the same as FMA).  You want to maximize the realism, those are the techniques you should train against.

Joe


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## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by kenpo2dabone _
> *Shadow Hunter,
> 
> You seem to be very willing to kill anyone who threatens you.*



Excuse me for cutting you off at this point, but where on earth did you get that idea? I feel like I am talking with someone from another planet.

Go take a look at the thread on killing in the general martial arts talk area. I think it may open your eyes a bit. If you feel a bit foolish, don't worry as I am very forgiving and will be ready to accept your apology.

I honestly do not know how you can get the cracked idea that I am very willing to kill.


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## kenpo2dabone

Maybe I miss interpreted but these were the clues...

>>>I do not mean to brag but, every single FMA or knife guru I know of would die if they did what they do unarmed against me with a knife.<<<

This very much sounds like you are willing to take the life of someone who is unarmed. I understand that you are simply using this as an example but would you really pull your knife out against someone who is not armed.  I would very much like to hear your response to the rest of my previous post as well. 

It really does seem like you are saying if you had a knife and the other guy doesn't you could kill him with your knife. 

I do appoligize if I offended you but I was simply responding to words you wrote.  

Sincerely,
Mike Miller UKF


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## lhommedieu

Shadow Hunter, 

You make the point that you can defeat the "typical" Filipino martial artist who practices "knife fighting." - if you had a knife and he doesn't.  You argue that this kind of person has a "knife to knife" perspective is not used to dealing with an individual who, for lack of a better term, is used to "knifing" people, and state that your experience over the years has made you privy to this form understanding.  Whoa! Stop the presses.  3000 years of martial arts heritage and Filipino martial artists haven't figured out how to knife an unarmed opponent!

What you are talking about is the way that some Filipino martial arts art taught to the masses, in commerical schools or seminars - and I agree (as, I am sure countless others do) that teaching other people how to be "knife fighters" is both stupid and criminal.  However, as I said above, there are some very good teachers out there who are neither typical, no prone to brag about their prowess with a knife.  I know one who survived a mugging in an elevator with a knife in his chest and a dead bad guy on the floor.  I guarantee that he won't be showing up on the forum to start talking about his particular talents.

Taking your claims out of the equasion, I agree that a person armed with a knife has vast advantages over someone without one.  I have argued on this forum, as well as others, that your chances of surviving an edged encounter (empty handed) against someone whose sole intent is to take your life are pretty slim.  So what else is new?  Hell, my _sister_ could take out anyone she wanted to with a kitchen knife, given the proper motivation and an insane disregard for her own safety.  What the "proper motivation" is, is anybody's guess, but it probably runs the gamut from sociopathy to defending the lives of your spouse or children.

Weapons are great equalizers, hence:  "If I had a gun, and he didn't, and he's trained to be a gunfighter, then I could kill him easily if he didn't have a gun." 

Time to move on...

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by kenpo2dabone _
> *It really does seem like you are saying if you had a knife and the other guy doesn't you could kill him with your knife.*



Yes, but how the hell did you get the idea that because I am _capable_ of killing someone I am somehow _eager_ to do it?

And let me get to the crux of my point, I am not saying that I go around killing people over minor matters. But Alex Gong was just killed by some guy for a really stupid reason. Would you kill someone just to avoid trouble after hitting another car? I would not but obviously someone is willing to.

There are predetors out there, and they are not training like you do in your safe little dojo. Be afraid little sheep, be very afraid.


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## kenpo2dabone

You have a much more diplomatic tongue "keyboard" than I do.


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## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *What you are talking about is the way that some Filipino martial arts art taught to the masses, in commerical schools or seminars - and I agree (as, I am sure countless others do) that teaching other people how to be "knife fighters" is both stupid and criminal.  However, as I said above, there are some very good teachers out there who are neither typical, no prone to brag about their prowess with a knife.*



Yes some people who have studied FMA have defeated people with knives. Not everyone who uses a knife knows what they are doing. For that matter, there are people who have used Tae Bo to defend themselves. If the other guy is a bigger idiot, then it really does not matter much if you are one as well.

But what I am saying is that just about every culture where you have a repressive goverment and a large semi- orginized criminal population too poor to own guns you start to see groups of techniques being perfected desighned to kill a person with a knife when they do not have one. America does not have too many of these systems as of yet, but I doubt it will remain that way. Have you seen some of what is being taught in prisons nowdays???

These systems come from the left field of a typical FMA or other knife arts manner of experience. The fact is, if you go up against a knife fighter using these types of techniques when they have a knife you will die a very bloody death. But you compensate by not fighting anyone if they have a knife. :shrug:


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## Phil Elmore

> There are predetors out there, and they are not training like you do in your safe little dojo.



Concepts such as this were the inspiration for *The Martialist*.



> Be afraid little sheep, be very afraid.


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## sercuerdasfigther

HEY SHADOW HUNTER,

    WE ALL GET IT, YOU GOT A BIG DICK. NEXT THREAD PLEASE.


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## Shadow Hunter

All caps, I am suitably impressed with your maturity. :shrug:


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## kenpo2dabone

Shadow Hunter,

You are right, I should not have said "you seem very willing to kill". I should have quoted you and then responded to the statement directly. I did not mean to imply that you are eager to kill but your point seems mute. Someone who trains in the knife or any weapons for that matter when confronted by an assailant who is armed chooses not to use there weapon would be like Tiger woods deciding to play his next golf match with out any golf clubs.  It's just not going to happen.  I will agree with you one hundred percent that there are people that are willing to stab you to death for no more that your wallet. This is why people train in knife arts all be it not the only reason. 


Salute,

Mike Miller UKF


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## Shadow Hunter

Thank you Kenpo2dabone for the quick apology. I make mistakes myself, so I can hardly hold an honest mistake against you.



> _Originally posted by kenpo2dabone _
> *Someone who trains in the knife or any weapons for that matter when confronted by an assailant who is armed chooses not to use there weapon would be like Tiger woods deciding to play his next golf match with out any golf clubs.  It's just not going to happen.*



I have to disagree with you here. I have trained a lot with weapons and have managed to get caught without them, or been unable to get them out before I was attacked.

It was not a matter of "choosing" not to use a weapon, but the sudden realization that the time I took getting to mine would be enough for the other guy to play show- and- tell with my guts. Of course, you can carry oc gas on a key ring in your hand, which is why I am so in love with the stuff now.


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## kenpo2dabone

>>>I have to disagree with you here. I have trained a lot with weapons and have managed to get caught without them, or been unable to get them out before I was attacked.<<<

Sorry for the >>><<< I have not figured out how to do the quotes yet, but I will.


How were you attacked and what did you do about it? You obviously survived the attack(s) so did you defeat the assailant open handed or did you create the time and space needed to draw your weapon. 

Mike Miller UKF


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## clapping_tiger

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *So far no one seems to understand.
> 
> Ask yourself these three questions.
> 
> 1- are you willing to take a blow to give a blow?
> 
> 2- are you willing to take a knife thrust to deliever your own knife thrust tot he other guy?
> 
> 3- would you be willing to take a broken rib to stick your knife in the other guys heart? *



1. Not if I don't have to. But working on pain management will help you if you get hit, which most likely will happen and you need to train for it and be prepaired for it. But to say being willing to take a blow to give a blow (I am seeing the end of every Rocky movie here) is very dangerous. I have been hit with single shots that have buckled my knees and I have done the same to others. You never know what kind of power your oppenent will be packing, or if they will get that lucky shot in.

2. Who is to say the first knife thrust delivered to you will not kill you before you get a chance to deliever your own. Not a good idea in my opinion.

3. If I knew that all I was going to get was a broken rib, then sure. But if you need to kill someone, then the onter must be trying to kill you, and I don't think I would be thinking about anything but survival at that point. If I get a broken rib, broken leg, cut wrist I won't care as long as I come out alive. 

My point is not to be willing to take this punishment, but be prepaired for it and worry about it after the threat has cleared.  Perhaps I misunderstood your post but it seems to me that you are talking about always being able to overpower your opponent with your strength and training over his. But no matter what you do or how hard you train, Any given Sunday.....................


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## Phil Elmore

> oc gas on a key ring in your hand, which is why I am so in love with the stuff now.



OC Spray is hardly what I would call the magic answer to self-defense.  It won't stop a determined assailant.


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## Joe

O agree w/phil OC spray can only give a quick secound from an agrressive attacker,  ehich is where traing comes in.
On a secound matter you shouldnt be bereated into an apology Kenpo2 as I agree Shadows ego and willingness to inflict the greatest harm is present in his words. You can always find another solution any thug can stab someone it takes  self dicipline and training to remove yourself from from the situation.  isnt that what we train for?  If  I have offended anyone you an adult it will pass.

Joe


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## Phil Elmore

I don't see a desire or a willingness to inflict unnecessary harm or use unwarranted force in what he's written -- that's a misinterpretation of what he's said.


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## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by clapping_tiger _
> *Perhaps I misunderstood your post*



Yes, you did. Completely.

"Joe" I am assuming you don't speak English as your native language.  Go study some and let the adults have a conversation with a little intelligence involved instead of speaking in terms even you can understand.



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil_
> * I don't see a desire or a willingness to inflict unnecessary harm or use unwarranted force in what he's written -- that's a misinterpretation of what he's said.*



Wow! I know you don't like certain things I write, but you still step up to defend me when you see something that is not right. You are really a man of honor.
:cheers: 

I can only add that I would rather have oc spray in my hand than nothing at all. If I could walk through a dark parking lot with a M14 rifle I would, but I would tend to get stopped by the cops. Oc is the best compromise between getting in trouble with the law and being completely unarmed.


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## Rich Parsons

Just some Random Thoughts and Personal Opinions


Is Shadow Hunter trying to sell something? I am just waiting for the final push.

(S)He is very upset and traumatized by the recent killing of a martial artist and this is his/her way of handling the situation.


(S)He mentions the really nasty tricks? What the cut and slash? The stab and slash? The sneak up with your knife or shiv cupped and stab from behind? Please do Tell? Or is it the secret Technique you will have to kill me if you told me??

(S)He makes claims that they can beat any one in a FMA or Knife art with a Knife. Sometimes (S)He qualifies that the opponent is unarmed. Other times it is not clear? These claims seem unrealistic, especially coming from someone puching realism.

(S)He has not met everyone, yet makes great generalizations. And if they reply here upset with my observations, then they should look in the mirror first and ask themselves some questions.

(S)He has mentioned that getting to their weapon would have taken too long. This is the first and only piece of evidence I have seen that this person has even talked to someone in a real fight let alone been in one.

How many times have you actually fought someone with a knife? A gun? Bare Hands. I do not mean in a ring where there are rules. I mean on the street where you do not know if they have that knife or that gun, and yet you find yourself in the mess? You claimed Decades of Training. With out a name and some proof to go with that name I have problems believing your claims. Sorry.

When was the last time you were in court facing charges? Or at least as a witness for or against those facing the charges?

I would never take a broken rib to stab someone. I would wait and choose my targets better. So not everyone will do the exchange. OH yeah And I am a big guy and I do not like exchanges, when I can avoid it. Are there people out there that do and would? Yes. Are there people that will shoot you with a sniper rifle while you gas your car? Yes. What does this mean to the Martial Arts? Should everyone get a ullet proof vest and hire professional Valets to gas our vehicles?


I have *"Seen"* people take deep stabs to the chest and still walk and talk and get into a car and go to the hospital. Lung pierced and heart nicked, multiple times.


As for empty hands versus the knife, if it is all I got, then it is what I use. If I do not have time to get a weapon (Shoe, Belt, Pen or pocket Knife or rock or a can of tuna fish ** I have used all these and more ** ) then I use the empty hands. For you see I want to survive. 


So, Mister I have a secret technique the word is not ready for, you sound so much like Norshadow A Banned User and also MoroMoro another Banned User, please continue to make your point that none of us seem to get. Which is, You are better then us. Ok. I can live with that, now crawl back into your hole/cave before the sun light hits you and turns you into stone.


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## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *
> (S)He mentions the really nasty tricks? What the cut and slash? The stab and slash? The sneak up with your knife or shiv cupped and stab from behind? Please do Tell? Or is it the secret Technique you will have to kill me if you told me??*




I don't want to give anyone any ammunition criminals can use against innocents. What kind of responsibility would I show if I detailed something a criminal could learn here? Do you want people to die? Everyone says they can deal with a trick when you mention it to them, but in my experience, they all end up "dead" in practice.



> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *(S)He makes claims that they can beat any one in a FMA or Knife art with a Knife. Sometimes (S)He qualifies that the opponent is unarmed. Other times it is not clear? These claims seem unrealistic, especially coming from someone puching realism.*




No, I have always said that when the other guy is unarmed I can win, but when we both have knives I get dead when I use these techniques.



> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *(S)He has not met everyone, yet makes great generalizations. And if they reply here upset with my observations, then they should look in the mirror first and ask themselves some questions.*




I have said that IN MY EXPERIENCE SO FAR when dealing with everyone I have met.... From that I guess that my sample of the general population is just as vaild as what they do for surveys.



> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *(S)He has mentioned that getting to their weapon would have taken too long. This is the first and only piece of evidence I have seen that this person has even talked to someone in a real fight let alone been in one.*




Oh really....:shrug:



> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *How many times have you actually fought someone with a knife? A gun? Bare Hands. I do not mean in a ring where there are rules. I mean on the street where you do not know if they have that knife or that gun, and yet you find yourself in the mess? You claimed Decades of Training. With out a name and some proof to go with that name I have problems believing your claims. Sorry.*




Blah blah blah. It is easier to discredit out of hand than deal with facts, isn't it?





> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *I would never take a broken rib to stab someone. I would wait and choose my targets better.*




My point exactly! You think like a knife fighter and expect everyone else to act like you do. Well, there are people who will take a black eye to put you in the grave.



> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *now crawl back into your hole/cave before the sun light hits you and turns you into stone. *



Gee, and I was thinking that moderators here were supposed to uphold standards about maintaining the friendly atmosphere of Martialtalk. Guess the standards aren't used when it is not convinient for the management, eh? :shrug:


----------



## Phil Elmore

It is difficult to maintain the "friendly atmosphere" of the forum in the face of egotistical proclamations of the type you've been making.


----------



## OULobo

Teetering on the vast edge of bad budo here.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

*Admin Note:*



> Gee, and I was thinking that moderators here were supposed to uphold standards about maintaining the friendly atmosphere of Martialtalk. Guess the standards aren't used when it is not convinient for the management, eh?



Its called an opinion.  Nothing that was said is "Official" at this point.  All staff are allowed to have em, and use em, regardless of the thoughs otherwise by some. I don't ask my staff to bury their viewpoints on issues.

this -is- an official statement.  Hense the "Note" tag above.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Now for the unofficial opinion:

Shadow claims that the majoroity of techniques taught in the mainstreme FMA wouldn't work in reality.

I both agree and disagree.  As I've not been in a knife fight (and hope never to be in one) I can't tell if my own training is adequete.  Having trained under folks who have been in such fights however, I have to think they did in fact know something, as they were both here and not horibly scared.

Do I think the majority of stuff taught is in the realm of fantasy land and movie tricks? Yes.

Do I agree that somewhere someone is learning some really brutal stuff as well as a desire to use it no matter the cost? Yup.
2 phrases here: 911 and Box Cutters.



> I don't want to give anyone any ammunition criminals can use against innocents. What kind of responsibility would I show if I detailed something a criminal could learn here? Do you want people to die? Everyone says they can deal with a trick when you mention it to them, but in my experience, they all end up "dead" in practice.



This is a copout.  Unless you've got a video to point us to, I doubt highly that any intelegent person will think they can learn the 'elite' stuff from a few paragraphs and a picture on a msg board.  Hell if that system worked, I'd be a master of Wing Chun and Iaido right now. 



> I have said that IN MY EXPERIENCE SO FAR when dealing with everyone I have met.... From that I guess that my sample of the general population is just as vaild as what they do for surveys.


 No argument here.  Your experience and mine are different.  In yours, something my work, in mine, it wont.  Why? Well, previous experiences and such.  (Hope that makes sence)


Theres both some good stuff in here, and some real BS.  Look past the BS and you'll find something of value I think.  Now, lets keep it a little more respectful, as I'd prefer not to lock threads today.

Thanks.


----------



## kenpo2dabone

I am still waiting for a reply to my questions concerning your surviving attacks in the past where you were unable to draw your weapon or youweren't carrying one at the time of the attack. I am very curious as to how you were attacked and what you did to survive it.

Mke Miller UKF


----------



## Phil Elmore

I would also like to know how old Shadow Hunter is, what his martial arts background is, and from what he derives the "decades of experience" to which he referred.


----------



## clapping_tiger

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Yes, you did. Completely.
> *



Could you please explain then how I misread your post. There is obviously a miscommunication happening here. It seemed to me that you were saying that you would take a shot to give a shot, and you are willing to take a knife wound to inflict your own wound on the attacker. If you are stating that in todays society that "if" you are attacked with a knife, the attacker is just out to kill and not for honor or for a fair fight. If this is the case, I think 95% of the serious martial arts community already knows this and would agree with you that times have changed. As far as unrealistic disarms go, yes some of them are hokey, but some of them teach you the base skills for disarming someone in a perfect situation. After a person gets those perfect situations down it is time to add more realism. 

Is that more along the lines of what you are trying to say? If not please explain.



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil_
> *OC Spray is hardly what I would call the magic answer to self-defense. It won't stop a determined assailant.*



I agree, I have been hit with the stuff voluntarily, and we were given a task to complete after the spray hit. We had to aggressively grab the attacker, knee him twice, bring him down to the ground, then back up and call 911 on a cell (dead cell phone so the call did not go through) and give the address of the situation, and what happened. After all that was completed that is when the real pain hit, once you no longer had a purpose to focus on. the same would hold true to an aggressive assailant who wanted you bad enough, just watch COPS. How many people don't go down right away when hit.



> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter_
> *I can only add that I would rather have oc spray in my hand than nothing at all. If I could walk through a dark parking lot with a M14 rifle I would, but I would tend to get stopped by the cops. Oc is the best compromise between getting in trouble with the law and being completely unarmed.*



I agree here too. I have my wife carry OC Spray with her. But I gave her some pointers on how to use it effectively, like when you spray it, don't sit in one spot. Even a blind attacker can come in on where you last were. OC spray does hurt and it will stop the average low life. and slow down and impare the aggressive one. Unless they are not effected by pepper.


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *I don't want to give anyone any ammunition criminals can use against innocents. What kind of responsibility would I show if I detailed something a criminal could learn here? Do you want people to die? Everyone says they can deal with a trick when you mention it to them, but in my experience, they all end up "dead" in practice.
> *



Ok you think you have a conscious, I can handle this answer.




> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *
> No, I have always said that when the other guy is unarmed I can win, but when we both have knives I get dead when I use these techniques.
> *


 Nope, not ALWAYS. I'll find the post later and quote.



> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *
> I have said that IN MY EXPERIENCE SO FAR when dealing with everyone I have met.... From that I guess that my sample of the general population is just as valid as what they do for surveys.
> *



In My Experience in the class room, It is real easy to get Dead.
In the Real Life Street it is real easy to get Dead. I still do not see
you point or approach?

 BTW: Are you selling something?




> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *
> Oh really....
> *



Yes Really!

How Many real life experiences have you had? You state decades. You state that in your experience it is easy to get dead. Ok, give me some of your experience.

NOTE: A person can learn a whole lot on the streets in a short few years or even months. So, I find the claim of decades, just that a Claim to prove you are right with out giving and real data that has any validity.




> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *
> Blah blah blah. It is easier to discredit out of hand than deal with facts, isn't it?
> *



Yada Yada, Wolf, Wolf, Buck Buck, Buck,  I asked you to look into the mirror, and I see you have, but only your sub-conscious has realized it. You state it is easier to discredit, which is what you have done here to start with.






> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *
> My point exactly! You think like a knife fighter and expect everyone else to act like you do. Well, there are people who will take a black eye to put you in the grave.
> *



I do not think like a Knife Fighter. I do not think like a grappler. I do not think like a Stick Fighter. As soon as you put a description to something you limit it. Just because you have to live in your poor-defined little world, do not draw me into it. I think like I Think. And the last Time I checked you were not one of the voices in my head. So, please as you pointed out to not assume things about me you do not know, nor have I stated explicitly.



> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *
> Gee, and I was thinking that moderators here were supposed to uphold standards about maintaining the friendly atmosphere of Martialtalk. Guess the standards aren't used when it is not convenient for the management, eh? *



The Admins, and Moderators are allowed to express their opinions, as long as they follow the rules. If not they get a warning or time off AKA suspension and if necessary even banned. Yet I am not going to allow some little minded child to step into this forum and make it a free for all and then claim they have been abused when people reply with their own opinions.


Now, to the whole point to my first post and this rebuttal.

You immediately assumed an aggressive point on my part, and assumed I was attacking you by the choice of my words. You did not like what I had to say and you felt you had to reply, and not just ignore my post. Once again, look into that mirror and see if you really are what you think you are? Or are you just a hypocrite, who does not like the same tactics applied to him.

Treat me and the fellow members of this board friendly, and you will be treated friendly. If not then expect some replies.

Think about it. If you attack first, then no on will listen to you.

Have a Nice Day


----------



## clapping_tiger

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *BTW: Are you selling something?*



Chung Moo Doe?


----------



## redfive

Chung Moo Quan, is what they called it when I started it for a very wierd six months. " master John C. Kim". What a mess. Any way, alot of people seem to miss the empy hand training of the FMAs. Remy always tought and talked about the translation, or making the connection. This was from stick to bolo to knive and then making the connection of all the same techniques to empty hands. A knife fighter may need a knife to be effective, and a stick fighter may need his sticks to be effective. A true FMA  person can be just as good empty handed as with the weapons. As stated in earlier post, in a real streat fight or attack, its usualy from an ambush. So you do have to gain time and space to get to your weapons. That of course involves empty hands or hand to weapon combat. This is not a new concept. this techniques have been around for 1000s of years. There are no new secret techniques. And this is true for attacking someone with a knife. there are no new techniques that can be told on this forum, that someone else has not heard of. So I'm sorry Shadow Hunter, but there are other people that know about and are doing the same combat knife techniques that you  are doing, or are thinking about. And you say that in your experience that you have never met a FMA that you could not beet with your knife and him being empty handed. Well your not looking very hard I guess. I'v only been in the combative arts for 17 years, not decades but I have meet several FMA masters that would shove your knive up your *** and pull it out your throat, with out a second thought. And it would be done in a matter of seconds. Ernesto Presas is the first name that comes to mind, Dong Cuesta, Remy, Angel Cabales,Leo Giron, Felicisimo Dezon and the list can go on. Of course some listed have past on, some many years ago. But with decades of experience, you would have had ample time to have met them. There are several members on this board, that I would put money on, as far as dealing with a knife and being empty handed. So as far as the FMAs go, I would not make such wide blanket statements or assumptions.  I would also state that there are many great knife fighters that are not FMA based. All systems, in there purity, have delt with empty hands against a knife.

                                    Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive.


----------



## arnisador

I assume you are referring to body-assist techniques. For those who don't know them, imagine using one or both hands to hold the butt end of the knife against your belly while the blade sticks straight out, then slamming forward into your opponent as if you wanted to tackle or bear hug them. (Of course, there are better approaches than this simple-minded one--I'm trying to give a visual image for those unfamiliar with the idea.) They're common in the FMA. They're extremely hard to defend against if the person starts close to you or has control of you by say holding an arm while bracing the knife against his body in his other hand.

Col. Fairbairn said that there is no way for the unarmed man to defend against the knife. If you know an art that reliably provides for empty-hand defense against the sort of surprise attack by a determined knifer that you describe, Id' sure like to know what it is.


----------



## kenpo2dabone

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> * If you know an art that reliably provides for empty-hand defense against the sort of surprise attack by a determined knifer that you describe, Id' sure like to know what it is. *



That is an extremely good question and I bet you will get several posts from people saying that their combative art works reliably against a would be attacker. 


This includes me! 

but I will do my best to back it up here with words. Unfortunately it is very hard to prove ones claims in writing so take this for what you feel it is worth. I am an American Kenpo Practioner with the Universal Kenpo Federation. The Federation is headed by Michael Robert Pick. I have never seen an individual move the way he does with a knife in his hand. Not to mention the way he moves empty handed. It is simply amazing and when he hits you all I have to say is you will be a believer. Getting back to the knife though. He is an Instructor for more than 2400 (I will have to conform this number) special forces troops in open handed and knife combat. Here is a quote from my instructor about him,

 "I have personally witnessed him taking on qualified grapplers and FMA practitioners both empty handed and with the knife and taking each to the kill. His dominance was complete. In my opinion his skill with the knife is unequaled in the Kenpo world and is acknowledged world wide for his knife skills by those that train in the upper echelons of combat. His skill with the gun is par excellence, rendering a perfect 268 points out of 268 to become a qualified combat shooting instructor for Special Forces".


The last sentence of this quote indicates that he will also be instructing troops in combat shooting as well. Sorry this is starting to sound like a sales pich for the UKF and I don't mean for it to. I just wanted to give you some back round of where my knowledge is coming from. 

Our basic principle of dealing with the knife is do deal with the true weapon. The knife is merely the tool used to do the damage. It is the body holding the knife that is the weapon. Take out the body and the tool is no longer dangerous. I know, I know, easier said than done. If there are practiioners in the bay area who wish to play with some of this stuff feel free to contact me through my profile. I love working with people from other martial backrounds regardless of what it is. Please don't take this as some sort of macho challenge because it is the furthest thing from it. It is an honest attempt at seeing what other people do versus what I do. if you convert to what I do that is your own decision... sorry bad attempt at some humor.

Salute,

Mike Miller UKF


----------



## Shadow Hunter

Let me tell you about my first experience with someone who considered themselves a knife fighter.

Back when Carter was president there was a series of rapes and robberies in the community I was in. The perp's MO would be to run after someone in a parking lot while waving something like a wallet in his left hand. He would yell, "you dropped this!"

As soon as he got close enough he would drop the wallet and grab the victim by the neck. He would pull them in while bringing  a knife he had concealed in his right hand into their stomach. The rape or robbery would start from there.

The local aikido dojo I was an junior instructor at had a campus police officer as a student and he let us know the details of the attacks. Some of us decided to see what we could do in that situation. We were at a disadvantage, but we did have some victories in training. A typical move would be to grab the knife hand with our left hand and shove the guy's chin up and back with our right far enough that we had the room to do things like _ikkyo_.

We invited a guy who was teaching Kali out of his garage to our second session. He would not participate _at all._ He said the scenario was "unrealistic." AFAIK, he did not know any grappling, throws or joint locks. He made fun of us by saying that if we tried to grab him like the attacker was doing he would cut us.

Since then I have run across many other who have had the same attitude. Not all people that study knife arts act like he did, but the more they identify themselves as knife fighters the less likely they seem to be willing to accept any other reality. I know people who study kali as part of JKD and they do not have that attitude, but the guys who make the most noise about their knife skills all seem to have the same attitude as that first guy. They think they will always have their knives, never be caught off guard and never have to deal with an attack that wouldn't work against an armed opponent.

That is my experience. Anyone care to say that they have never run into that being a pretty common mind- set among people who think of themselves as macho knife fighters?


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Let me tell you about my first experience with someone who considered themselves a knife fighter.
> *



Thank You for at least attempting to communicate with us.



> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *
> Back when Carter was president there was a series of rapes and robberies in the community I was in. The perp's MO would be to run after someone in a parking lot while waving something like a wallet in his left hand. He would yell, "you dropped this!"
> *



I remember Carter.

I also remember, backing away from people I do not know. I also remember not giving myself to other people by giving them range. I always tried to give myself room to move or run. These people are just like most people in the USA today. They go around in a state of total trust. Occasionally they should move over to paying attention and reading the situation to access danger or harm. To me this is one of the most important aspects of self defense.



> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *
> That is my experience. Anyone care to say that they have never run into that being a pretty common mind- set among people who think of themselves as macho knife fighters? *



This Last Quote, I could apply to "Fill inte the MA" here.

I know Kenpo Guys that beleive they are untouchable empty hands.

I know Arnis Guys who believe they are untouchable with a stick.

I know Judo/Ju-Jitsu/MMA practitioners that believe they are untouchable on the grourd.

I even know point fighter for tournaments who believe they would be untouchable in a street fight.

So, unless you went and serched out a lot of those MASTER's who use the knife in the decades of your training, then I would and still say that your experiences are limited. Years does not equate to knowledge or wisdom, unfortunately. You must be productive during those years.

I am not trying to be a jerk here on purpose. You made a lot of bold statements and claims. And then gave as your back up and proof you experience and years of knowledge. I want to hear more. Tell me how you searched out more instruction in knife. Or was it just about once every other year you ran across a guy in the bar or at a tournament who was running his big mouth?

Still trying to understand what your point is, and why it is unique to knife fighting.


----------



## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by kenpo2dabone _
> *I am still waiting for a reply to my questions concerning your surviving attacks in the past where you were unable to draw your weapon or youweren't carrying one at the time of the attack. I am very curious as to how you were attacked and what you did to survive it.
> 
> Mke Miller UKF *



The last time was after I had flown home from the Czech republic. I obviously did not carry weapons on the flight and I did not get them out of my bags after arriving at the airport. It was stupid and forgetfull. About as stupid and forgetfull as walking into a room and not being able to remember why you are there. And if anyone can pass a polygraph saying they have never stood in a room with a stupid look on their face as they try to remember why they walked in, I will accept their premis that they never have to train for times they do not have weapons on them.

On the way back from the airport I stopped off at a supermarket. In the parking lot a van stops right in front of me and two guys jump out screaming something about me cutting them off. Bad situation.

My response was not the standard one. I started singing "close to you" while taking off my clothes. Yes it sounds strange, but I was dealing with massive jet lag and stress at that point. The two guys backed off about the time I got my shirt off and were in their van and starting to drive off by the time I started pulling my underwear off. I stood there as they drove away, looked around at the crowd that had gathered to watch and bowed before putting on my stuff and driving home.


----------



## Phil Elmore

Okay, these posts are becoming less and less believable with each one.


----------



## tarabos

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *On the way back from the airport I stopped off at a supermarket. In the parking lot a van stops right in front of me and two guys jump out screaming something about me cutting them off. Bad situation.
> 
> My response was not the standard one. I started singing "close to you" while taking off my clothes. Yes it sounds strange, but I was dealing with massive jet lag and stress at that point. The two guys backed off about the time I got my shirt off and were in their van and starting to drive off by the time I started pulling my underwear off. I stood there as they drove away, looked around at the crowd that had gathered to watch and bowed before putting on my stuff and driving home. *



bravo...marvelous post...


----------



## clapping_tiger

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *The last time was after I had flown home from the Czech republic. I obviously did not carry weapons on the flight and I did not get them out of my bags after arriving at the airport. It was stupid and forgetfull. About as stupid and forgetfull as walking into a room and not being able to remember why you are there. And if anyone can pass a polygraph saying they have never stood in a room with a stupid look on their face as they try to remember why they walked in, I will accept their premis that they never have to train for times they do not have weapons on them.
> 
> On the way back from the airport I stopped off at a supermarket. In the parking lot a van stops right in front of me and two guys jump out screaming something about me cutting them off. Bad situation.
> 
> My response was not the standard one. I started singing "close to you" while taking off my clothes. Yes it sounds strange, but I was dealing with massive jet lag and stress at that point. The two guys backed off about the time I got my shirt off and were in their van and starting to drive off by the time I started pulling my underwear off. I stood there as they drove away, looked around at the crowd that had gathered to watch and bowed before putting on my stuff and driving home. *



OOOKayyyyyy...............:shrug: 

I am starting to think this whole thing is a joke.


----------



## arnisador

Yes, it seems clear that we're being trolled.


----------



## Richard S.

OH NO! please dont bust him now, this thread has provided more sheer entertainment than anything i have read in a while.


----------



## bujuts

In response to your comments

"I know how to kill the typical guy who calls himself a knife fighter. If he is unarmed and I have a knife then I will be able to take advantage of his conventional thinking and stick him repeatedly while only taking some minor damage in return....And more used you are to knife fighting, the more vulnerable you are to the techniques."

All I can say is that I think more investigation on your part is in order.  Although I'm sure you're familiar with both empty hand and knives, there are systems that deal with empty hands no different than they deal with knives as an offensive tool.  In my system, a weapon is a weapon is a weapon (guns or other projectiles not withstanding in this case), and the objective (at least, as I've learned), is to establish control of the enemy, and to prevent any further deployment of these weapons.

The final culimination of my particular empty handed system is the knife.  Everything in regards to applications of power, physical domination of the enemy, and control do not change when the student gets a knife in their hands.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
Universal Kenpo Federation
www.ukfkenpo.com


----------



## Scooter

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Okay, these posts are becoming less and less believable with each one. *



Check out some of his "conversations" on other threads on this site...never states his name, age, what he's trained in or rank....just likes to argue and tell everyone how "right" he is.


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## Cruentus

You better be careful! 

This guy is a true shadow hunter.....he knows more then any of us can dream....and he wears no real name, or age, or background.....So he can disappear into the "shadows." Have you ever seen the Movie "Glimmer Man" with Steven Segal......we have our real Glimmer Man right here on martial talk! I have realized that all my FMA, Burmese MA, and combative knife training is completely useless against a shadow hunter. I have already sheathed by blades and hung up my sticks...I am finished.

Remember....*You can't hide IN THE SHADOWS from a SHADOW HUNTER!* 

PAUL

P.S. What a geek. :feedtroll


----------



## Phil Elmore

Something tells me he's run off.


----------



## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Something tells me he's run off. *



....into the shadows!  LOL


----------



## Richard S.

you know, if you would have just let him keep on talking i bet it would have gotten a lot funnier.....SHADOWHUNTER PLEASE COME BACK! YOU'RE ONE OF THE BEST FOOLS WE'VE HAD!!......


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## hardheadjarhead

"My response was not the standard one. I started singing "close to you" while taking off my clothes. Yes it sounds strange, but I was dealing with massive jet lag and stress at that point. The two guys backed off about the time I got my shirt off and were in their van and starting to drive off by the time I started pulling my underwear off. I stood there as they drove away, looked around at the crowd that had gathered to watch and bowed before putting on my stuff and driving home."

WHAT AN INCREDIBLE TACTIC!!!

Unless of course:

You forget the words to the song.

Your attackers are psychopatic gays who then take advantage of your delicate situation.

You get arrested for public indecency.

Your attackers assume you're kinky, and have a special animosity for kinky people.

They hate your singing.

They hate the song (I sure do).

They mistake you for Karen Carpenter and try to force feed you a sandwich.


Regards,

Steve Scott


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## beunbad

Shadow hunter sounds like a real bonified operator type.  You you know the type, 5' 6" 240lbs 28 % bodyfat who used to be a navy seal and taught the cia how to be better spies.....


----------



## hardheadjarhead

"Shadow hunter sounds like a real bonified operator type. You you know the type, 5' 6" 240lbs 28 % bodyfat who used to be a navy seal and taught the cia how to be better spies....."


Oh, God...don't get me started.  Ack! Too late:

Guy comes up to me after we did a public demo, EXACT match to that above description, only fatter, and shows me a SEAL membership I.D. card that looked like he ordered it out of the back of Soldier of Fortune magazine, and says, "I used to do this [martial arts], still do, I train Special Forces."  He weighed at least 350, had a pony tail, biker leathers.  Five six.

Guy comes up to me at the local "Y", sees my uniform and belt, says "I used to do that when I was in the Army...Special Forces...do you do FULL CONTACT?  I don't want to do it unless its full contact."  I should have hit him full contact right then.  He'd have liked that.  Might have cost me my "Y" membership.

Guy tells me he was in the Special Forces in Viet Nam..."I know how to do this stuff, but only how to kill.  The killing is easy.  Turning it off is hard"...a line right out of "The Hunted", and ten years before the movie.  He got arrested for child molesting handicapped kids a year later.

The list goes on.

None of these guys were "Spec Ops".  None of them could tell you the burn time of time fuze, the use of det cord in the construction of a daisy chain, the cyclic rate of fire of an M-60 machinge gun or how to deal with a runaway gun, how to shoot an azimuth (they all predated GPS in age)....

Rambo wannabes.

Now we have "Shadow Hunter".

Regards,

Steve Scott


----------



## beunbad

Bet   he can tell you where all the surplus stores are and the best way to care for phony SEAL logo type shirts marketed as authentic "Teamwear".  Godamed wanna bes..

Semper fi,

Jadedjarhead


----------



## OULobo

My pops has been a machinist for many years and for some reason he has run into quite a few "talkers" at his jobs, the usual mix of ex-cons, bikers, wannabe toughies, hilljacks and the rest. Dad's an old Navy vet, but nothing colorful, he was just a radar operator on cruiser. The point of the story is this guy he currently works with comes up and starts talkin. He tells my Dad about how he went to the Air Force Academy straight from highschool because he was top of his class, and when he graduated they sent him to 'Nam as a pilot. He had a moral issue with dropping bombs on innocents, so he got a transfer to fly huey med-exacs. After his "stint" there they decided he'd be good for "black-ops" behind lines in Cambodia and Loas. Finally, got back to the US and made a few million with a roofing business he started. That was fine until he murdered two people and went to prison for "a while". So now that he's out, he's a machinist. 

I lost count of how many 'tough guy" cliches this guy tried to cram into one story.


----------



## hardheadjarhead

Yeah...you don't go from the Air Force dropping bombs to the Army med-evacs.  The guy didn't do his homework.

We run into guys like this a lot in the martial arts.  People like this live a lie because they need the illusion of power.  I've read where they were abused as children.  They pretend they're former Spec Ops, or martial artists extraordinaire.

But THIS should be another thread....or should it?  Perhaps it is OT, given who started the thread and on what he wrote.  It seems people think he's one of these guys.

Maybe I'll start a thread on this.  Where would it be a good spot to post it?  Thoughts?

Regards,

Steve Scott


----------



## Cruentus

That's one thing I have trouble understanding....there are SO many people who lie about being in the military. If you wanted to be in the military, then you should of joined!


----------



## ABN

I was having a beer with a friend of mine the other day when the discussion turned to how many "spec-ops vets" the war on terror will produce. I think the local MCS store can expect to see a run on silver stars, DSCs, Bronze stars, SF and Ranger tabs (note to wannabes make sure you wear the SF tab on both sleeves with the arrowhead) :uhyeah:, and the like.
   I have a feeling that there will be many bar stool commandos that my sons will be meeting 20 years or so down the road who can't even spell Afghanistan.

regards,

andy 
An Army SGT driving a desk in NJ


----------



## hardheadjarhead

We have a thread on this going on over in General Martial Arts discussion...entitled "Liars in the Martial Arts".  It includes military frauds...as I thought them to be of the same ilk.  Pop in and contribute.

Regards,

Steve Scott


----------



## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *Rambo wannabes.
> 
> Now we have "Shadow Hunter".
> *



Steve,
I think you are just trying to project onto me what you _know_ to be true about a teacher you have studied with.

http://www.phonyveterans.com/Gyi.html 

Tell me if any of my claims have been shot down like Gyi's have. In fact, try to tell me exactly where I claimed to be part of the CIA, Chindits, etc.

I have been fairly amused by the way several people have shrilly attacked me rather than try to face the truth I present. It is rather fun to see you all clutch your fantasy as you try to drown out the truth with your attacks.

I have a question for you all. For all the guys who say they will face a knife with a knife in their hands, do you use your knife if the other guy grabs you with no weapon in his hands? I am sure there are several of you who would answer yes and say something abuot it being better to be judged by 12 rather than caried by 6 before running off to the bathroom with the latest knife magazine.

But for those that try not to face really bad legal troubles, if you are in a grappling situation and the other guy suddenly pulls a knife- what do you do then? Do you go for your own knife while he has one hand on you and another with a knife in it? Or do you deal with the knife threat of his before you go for your own?

I have met Gracie stylists who have practiced against someone pulling a knife in the middle of a fight. I have never met a person who has identified himself as a knife fighter who has. One said he could- but it was a fairly pathetic attempt. Their attitude is reflected by the comments here about how you will not be caught unaware, how you will have access to your weapon, etc.

But I just learned that felons are so aware of the trick of pulling a knife in the middle of a fist fight to earn it at least three different prison slang terms!

I see no one wants to part with their little dreams of being invincible knife fighters. Go back to your games and your comments behind the safety of your keyboards. 99 percent of you will never get close to a knife fight so I guess it does not mater how ineffective your training would be should you meet a graduate of the prison system.

Or you can prop up your egos by making comments about how you _really do_ deal with these kind of things.


----------



## Phil Elmore

He's back!  He's back! :lol:


----------



## Shadow Hunter

Yes I am back for a while. And I am expecting some more mean- spirited attacks from people like you instead of honest discussion about the facts in a friendly enviroment.

As I said, it is amusing to see people try to attack me rather than deal with any facts that threaten their fantasy world view.


----------



## Richard S.

Mr. shadowhunter, welcome back. we missed you.


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## OULobo

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *Steve,
> I think you are just trying to project onto me what you know to be true about a teacher you have studied with.
> 
> http://www.phonyveterans.com/Gyi.html
> 
> Tell me if any of my claims have been shot down like Gyi's have. In fact, try to tell me exactly where I claimed to be part of the CIA, Chindits, etc.
> 
> *



I can hardly think that having a burgeoning group of students across the continent shows people believe "Fat Mike's" claims on Dr. Gyi. It's just politics being delivered by a bitter veteran. The phonyveterans website is an interesting mix of half-reasearched name calling and real fraud busting. If anyone wnats to hear my theory on that site and my knowledge as to the reason why Doc is being attacked feel free to PM me as I don't want to clutter up a thread posted for other reasons.


----------



## arnisador

I don't know anything about the past.

I've met Dr. Gyi in the past few years and I really like him.

Probably a tangent about him should be directed to the Indochinese Martial Arts-General forum however.


----------



## hardheadjarhead

My suggestion?

Put this on the "Liars in the Martial Arts thread.  Its in the General Martial Arts forum.  Hash it out there.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11265

And no, Shadowhunter, I'm not trying to project anything from Gyi on to you.  

Further, I'm no apologist for Gyi.  I will not train with him because of the allegations made against him...and I haven't trained with him since before the allegations became public.  What training I received was minimal, in any event.   You trained with him a bit, too, it seems.  Perhaps, I'd venture, a little more than me?  

But again, Gyi's issues belong in the forum as mentioned...and anybody who wants to defend him ought to do so publicly, so too his detractors.

Back to issue of this thread...you make a point, Shadowhunter, about the knife play in the scenario you mentioned.  But from the start, you did so acidulously.  I'm not surprised people turned on you.  Trashing FMA  in your post is not the best way to win adherents to your views, much less any respect.

You remind me, with your condescending lack of tact, of someone else I know.  You clearly know me, and have me at a disadvantage, but only partially so, since I'm reasonably sure I know who you are.  Care to come out of the close...er...the shadows?

Anyway...I take your point.  If someone pulls a knife on me in a situation where I'm grappling him, it is a reeeeeally bad (replace with appropriate expletive).  I don't think anybody here denies that.  Grappling with a knife when you're barehanded forebodes a dim future.  If someone bushwhacks any one of us, same thing.  

But if I have time to get my knife out, I think it premature to assume you'll win.  But then, you said you'd run, didn't you?

How sweet.  Good choice, perhaps.


Regards,


Steve Scott


----------



## clapping_tiger

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> 99 percent of you will never get close to a knife fight


And I am thankfull for that and I hope I am part of that 99% I don't see that as a bad thing.


----------



## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *Anyway...I take your point.  If someone pulls a knife on me in a situation where I'm grappling him, it is a reeeeeally bad (replace with appropriate expletive).  I don't think anybody here denies that.  Grappling with a knife when you're barehanded forebodes a dim future.  If someone bushwhacks any one of us, same thing.
> 
> But if I have time to get my knife out, I think it premature to assume you'll win*



If someone has one arm around your waist and you notice that the other arm has a knife coming at you do you really think that you can pull a knife and defeat the guy _before_ he carves you like a turkey?

This is the mindset I was talking about. Cops are gunmen. You ask the typical LEO what he would do if he saw a guy with a knife charging him from 21 feet and he will answer that he would pull his gun and shoot the SOB. We know that few cops can do that. But as a "knife man" you think that from a wrestling situation you can get your own knife out in time to save your life? How about dealing with the knife he has before going for your own?

Honestly, people who claim to be knife fighters have got to have the most macho attitude of any martial art out there. You can find old ladies and reasonably normal people studying self defense arts. But the guys who call themselves knife artists are almost 100 percent young guys who are in deseperate need of a real life.


----------



## hardheadjarhead

I've been doing FMA on and off for fifteen years and I honestly don't know a single person claiming to be a knife fighter.

No, I don't necessarily think I'm going to get out of that scenario you described Scot free (no pun intended).  BUT I'M GOING TO TRY.

What would you do?  Please, I seek your illumination.

SCS


----------



## Shadow Hunter

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *No, I don't necessarily think I'm going to get out of that scenario you described Scot free (no pun intended).  BUT I'M GOING TO TRY.
> 
> What would you do?  Please, I seek your illumination.*



Every limb that was free would be used to try to grab and/or stop his blade from stabbing me. Only when I was reasonably sure I could do it without getting cut would I go for my own weapon. That is the best choice in a bad situation.

That makes sense, but like the cops that always go for their gun when a guy comes at them with a knife, the guys who call themselves knife fighters go for their knives instead of the logical thing.

This is not to say that everyone who uses a knife thinks like this. Just the guys whose whole world view revolves around them being a knife fighter.


----------



## Phil Elmore

The mods have asked that questions of your background and claims be confined to a single thread, and this thread seems like the place.  So:

Given the ridiculous statements you've made in this and other threads, the arrogance with which you've proclaimed yourself an indestructible knife-fighter-neutralizer, your obvious and transparently fabricated implications of being some sort of high-speed super-secret black-bag operator, why should _anyone_ take seriously any advice you try to give them on the subject of _any_ sort of self-defense whatsoever?

To put it another way, there's no polite way to say that you sound like a Virtual Tough Guy living in a fantasy world.

To put it yet _another_ way, real "operators" don't wanter the Internet telling the world that they don't want to talk about the things they can't talk about while dispensing knife-fighting defense tips on the side.


----------



## ABN

Knife Fighter = Talented Culinary School Graduate who has seen "The HUnted" 100+ times.
 

I am curious to know where you gained your stereotype of the machismo driven knife fighter. You said "the guys who call themselves knife fighters go for their knives instead of the logical thing. This is not to say that everyone who uses a knife thinks like this. Just the guys whose whole world view revolves around them being a knife fighter."

   I spent about 4 hours yesterday with a guy who is very into Kali, didn't call himself a "knife fighter" not ego driven at all. I learned quite a bit from him in fact, about the history and philosophy of Kali. I used to work twice a week with a couple of guys who had a variety of martial arts experience some Kali, some SFC, some TKD, etc. In fact after 12 years in the military, working in bars and restaurants, and living in urban areas, I can't remember one instance of encountering the "knife fighter"  you describe. 

 Where does your hostility towards knife arts practicioners stem from? If you truly believe that you have vaild input and ideas then  you really should have started this thread with a much more receptive and open mind. You could have presented your thoughts in a far more professional manner.

Just my half pence,

andy


----------



## Karazenpo

I wish to concur with 'Clapping Tiger', I too have taken OC training in regards to my profession (police officer). It is by no means an end all. It is just another option or tool we use but it certainly isn't 100 per cent, nothing is, not even the handgun. Like 'Clapping Tiger' stated we too fought like hell after being blasted with the stuff. Makes ya think. 
As I have posted before and I will repeat myself for the sake of this discussion. Calibre Press (Charles Remsberg & Dennis Anderson) Police Survival seminars-5 years of research into both police and civillian survivors of edged weapon attacks showed that those that did survive, did so by securing the knife weilding arm. So they came up with the acronym, G.U.N.-Grab, Undo & Neutralize. Dan Inosanto was their technical advisor on edged weapons. There is a video out by them called 'Surviving Edged Weapons'. It was also stated there is a 90 per cent or BETTER chance that you will be cut in an attempt to disarm. One last thing. Professor Greg Harper, highly respected, tough, talented & tough as nails Kajukenbo man and bodyguard to Kajukenbo's founder Sijo Adriano Emperado- He has stated in his school 'a knife means death'. I'll leave it at that.


----------



## hardheadjarhead

> That makes sense, but like the cops that always go for their gun when a guy comes at them with a knife, the guys who call themselves knife fighters go for their knives instead of the logical thing.



Well, there ya go.  I never met any of those guys.  As for a cop going for his gun all the time, or the guy going for his knife all the time...geez.  If he can get it out and upgrade his lethality by that factor...why not?  I know an ex-cop that had his arm layed open to the bone by a woman.  She cut him while he was fighting her husband...he never saw the knife before she nailed him.  He got his gun out and blew her knee away.  Should he have kept it in the holster and "dealt with the knife"?  

From what I've seen of Sayoc, they train the "Oh S---" scenarios a heck of a lot.  So do other FMA's.  Many people out there seem to address it pretty reasonably.



> But as a "knife man" you think that from a wrestling situation you can get your own knife out in time to save your life? How about dealing with the knife he has before going for your own?



Who said I was a "knife man?"  I carry guns from time to time.  That doesn't make me a "gun man".  Or were you using the global "you"?  Weapons are a tool...not a crutch.

Loved the VTG article, Phil.  I say that at risk of being a shoe-licker by the article's very definition.


SCS


----------



## Karazenpo

quote: That makes sense, but like the cops that always go for their gun when a guy comes at them with a knife, the guys who call themselves knife fighters go for their knives instead of the logical thing. 

I hope the hell this doesn't mean that a cop is not supposed to go for his gun all the time when a knife is pulled. If it does please allow me to set the record straight. A police officer is trained in the use of deadly force when a knife is employed. He is not to try empy hand, OC or a baton. Those methods are only employed if he/she cannot get to their sidearm in time. Anything less than drawing a gun is considered an under-reaction to the threat and was an improper threat assessment. An over-reaction can get a suspect killed but an under-reaction can get the police officer killed. I have made that mistake several times and am lucky I'm still alive. I will not make it again. Anyone who thinks otherwise is smok'n some real whacky weed!, lol. Remember, a police officer is paid and trained to win not lose (I heard a judge say this once first hand in a use of force situation with a baton) A deadly force street encounter is not a matter of honor, principle or pride. It is a matter of survival. The bottom line is the officer goes home after his tour of duty and its just too bad for the a-hole that threatened his life! If that quote was mean't as a dig toward the police then it's like I've always said: "We have too many "Dojo Warriors" out there that fight in theory only. To again quote the body guard of Adriano Emperado, Professor Greg Harper, "A knife means death". If myself and SCS misunderstood that quote then I apologize. Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras, a police officer since 1977.


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## arnisador

I would certainly hope a LEO could draw a gun when confronted with a knife!

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=526

In particular:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=4155#post4155



> NOTE - The Author again wishes to go on record - IF YOU ARE UN-ARMED - "THERE IS NO DEFENCE AGAINST AN OPPONENT ATTACKING WITH A KNIFE". --William Ewart Fairbairn


----------



## Karazenpo

quote: NOTE - The Author again wishes to go on record - IF YOU ARE UN-ARMED - "THERE IS NO DEFENCE AGAINST AN OPPONENT ATTACKING WITH A KNIFE". --William Ewart Fairbairn 

Arnisador: Yes there is. It's called LUCK!!!!!!  lol.


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Shadow Hunter _
> *
> Honestly, people who claim to be knife fighters have got to have the most macho attitude of any martial art out there. You can find old ladies and reasonably normal people studying self defense arts. But the guys who call themselves knife artists are almost 100 percent young guys who are in deseperate need of a real life. *



Personally I think the most macho or arrogant Martial artists, are  . . ., just about any one from any style.

The Strikers think/assume/train to know out in one or two punches. Including those with knives. 

The Kickers think/assume/train to know out in one or two kicks. Including those with knives. 

The Grapplers think/assume/train to know out in one or two locks/throws/pins. Including those with knives. 

The Stick Jocks . . . 

And The list goes on.

So, just think about your own macho attitude here


----------



## hardheadjarhead

> And The list goes on.



Gun guys, too.  

Over-reliance on ANYTHING is a mistake.  Any time we are quick to dismiss an approach we set ourselves up for failure.  People get locked into their method and become downright arthritic in their thinking.

SCS


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *Gun guys, too.
> 
> Over-reliance on ANYTHING is a mistake.  Any time we are quick to dismiss an approach we set ourselves up for failure.  People get locked into their method and become downright arthritic in their thinking.
> 
> SCS *



Reminds me of a conversation I heard between two non-martial artists regarding the arts.  In effect, they said if anyone tried to use some martial arts techniques on them, they'd just pull out a gun and shoot.

I know for a fact that one of them did not even own a gun, and even if he did, neither of them actually ever carried a gun on them.

Cthulhu


----------



## hardheadjarhead

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Reminds me of a conversation I heard between two non-martial artists regarding the arts.  In effect, they said if anyone tried to use some martial arts techniques on them, they'd just pull out a gun and shoot.
> 
> I know for a fact that one of them did not even own a gun, and even if he did, neither of them actually ever carried a gun on them.
> 
> Cthulhu *



That's when they point their .45 caliber index finger at you and they say "bang".

I had a friend that once said he'd just shoot me with his .357 magnum if I ever used martial arts on him.  I asked him where his gun was.  He said in his car, 300 yards away, locked in the glove compartment.  The ammunition was kept in the trunk, in accordance with state law at the time (Hawaii, 1974).  

Another guy told a black belt I know that he'd "go out to my car and get my .45!"  This after a verbal confrontation.  The black belt, a large and intimidating man, told him to sit and not move...if he even got up to go to the bathroom, he'd knock him out.  The guy just meekly sat there until the black belt decided he wanted to leave about a half hour  and two beers later.  The guy with the gun in his car was glued to his seat, terrified of the black belt...and for good reason.

I love guns...but they're not a panacea.

Regards,

Steve Scott


----------



## Rich Parsons

Being off topic yet I wil chime in:

I walked around the corner of a place I was bouncing. I practically walk into a guy pulling his gun out of holster under his arm. It was pointed at the young punks through his jacket.

I smiled and said excuse me. Could you do me a favor or two? The guy was totally taken by surprise. I asked him if I could take care of the problem for him myself or if not then could I quietly walk away and go inside the brick building to not be a witness?

This guys friend chimes in and starts to tell me the story. These two young punks were hitting on and commenting on the two men's women. (* Not sure if they were married or just with, never asked *) One of the women then told the gun holder to get into the car and they would all just leave. I had made sure I was not between him and the punks. He did not want to leave by being told too or by being scared off. I asked him to put away his toy and to continue with his plans for the evening, and that he could come back in the future, just leave his toy in the car. I would then go take care of the punks.  He smiled and left.
(* The gun under control and out of sphere of responsibilty was my goal, i.e. no one hurt *)

I walked over to the punks and asked them what happened. Their story was that they had said the ladies were nice looking and then the guys took exception and one thing lead to another. They followed them out to the parking lot and were going to leave, but were having "fun" with the arguement. I asked him if they knew they had a gun pointed at them? Their reply. Gun? I will go get my Dad's Gun! I aksed where is it? At home in the safe. I said not much good when his was pointed at you. They could not believe it. NO way! was their comment. I had to explain that a gun could be pointed at them when the guy had his hand inside his jacket. The young punks started getting all upset and telling me how they were going to go home and then come back with their Dad's Gun and wait for them. I told them to go home and not come back. If they did, I would call the police. They left, no one got hurt that night.

Train Well Think smart and be aware
:asian:


----------



## OULobo

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Being off topic yet I wil chime in:
> 
> I walked around the corner of a place I was bouncing. I practically walk into a guy pulling his gun out of holster under his arm. It was pointed at the young punks through his jacket.
> 
> I smiled and said excuse me. Could you do me a favor or two? The guy was totally taken by surprise. I asked him if I could take care of the problem for him myself or if not then could I quietly walk away and go inside the brick building to not be a witness?
> 
> This guys friend chimes in and starts to tell me the story. These two young punks were hitting on and commenting on the two men's women. (* Not sure if they were married or just with, never asked *) One of the women then told the gun holder to get into the car and they would all just leave. I had made sure I was not between him and the punks. He did not want to leave by being told too or by being scared off. I asked him to put away his toy and to continue with his plans for the evening, and that he could come back in the future, just leave his toy in the car. I would then go take care of the punks.  He smiled and left.
> (* The gun under control and out of sphere of responsibilty was my goal, i.e. no one hurt *)
> 
> I walked over to the punks and asked them what happened. Their story was that they had said the ladies were nice looking and then the guys took exception and one thing lead to another. They followed them out to the parking lot and were going to leave, but were having "fun" with the arguement. I asked him if they knew they had a gun pointed at them? Their reply. Gun? I will go get my Dad's Gun! I aksed where is it? At home in the safe. I said not much good when his was pointed at you. They could not believe it. NO way! was their comment. I had to explain that a gun could be pointed at them when the guy had his hand inside his jacket. The young punks started getting all upset and telling me how they were going to go home and then come back with their Dad's Gun and wait for them. I told them to go home and not come back. If they did, I would call the police. They left, no one got hurt that night.
> 
> Train Well Think smart and be aware
> :asian: *



Well handled. It seems that so many people want to escalate the confrontation after the fact ("I'll go home and get my dad's gun"). It's ridiculous to think that. The people that are ready, willing and able to use most weapons will use them without any warning.


----------



## hardheadjarhead

> Well handled. It seems that so many people want to escalate the confrontation after the fact ("I'll go home and get my dad's gun").



Its amazing how many people don't know how indefensible that is in court.

SCS


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## Sifu Barry Cuda

This has got to be the most ego driven thread ever.As a former corrections officer,and former hard drinking fight starting maniac with 20 years experience in Kali I can honestly say I have gone against a knife without one and Im still here to tell the tales.JKD instructor Larry Hartsell has often said"sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you" Now if you wanted to jump out of the bushes and stab me while I was walking down the street talking to my girlfriend youd probably kill me.If you pulled a knife out and asked me for my wallet I can assure you I will stick thay knife up your a##.NYC can be a rough place and it also has its own knife culture.To say FMA training will get you killed is just a dumb thing to say. Barry  www.combatartsusa.com k"y


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## Jerry

As a long time follower of discussion boards... it's bad form in the extreme to resurrect a multi-year dead thread.

The people who posted on this may not even still be here. Protocol says, if there's a point to be made, start a new thread about that point. If it's just a comment on the thread... it's too late.


----------



## Cruentus

Jerry said:
			
		

> As a long time follower of discussion boards... it's bad form in the extreme to resurrect a multi-year dead thread.
> 
> The people who posted on this may not even still be here. Protocol says, if there's a point to be made, start a new thread about that point. If it's just a comment on the thread... it's too late.



That is good advise. Especially if the thread was heated...you don't want to be preceived as a trouble maker who likes to beat a dead horse.

Paul


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## Tgace

:deadhorse

But since the dead have arisen....the deadly myth of the "knife fighter".
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/statisticalchances.htm#knifefighter


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## Cryozombie

Actually the thread died in 03...


----------



## Cruentus

Tgace said:
			
		

> :deadhorse
> 
> But since the dead have arisen....the deadly myth of the "knife fighter".
> http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/statisticalchances.htm#knifefighter



I love that article. I honestly think it is worth its own thread...


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## Clive

Shadow Hunter said:
			
		

> I do not mean to brag but, every single FMA or knife guru I know of would die if they did what they do unarmed against me with a knife. I would have to deal with some bruises and injuries from what they would do to me, but I would only have to tag them a few times to kill them. If we both had knives, the dynamics would change. But if I really wanted to kill them I would not attack them while they had a knife. So what they do is not suited for the strategy I would use when I _knew_ that the only knife in the fight was mine. If they had a knife and got it out, I would run. If they tried their stuff that works against someone used to fighting another person with a knife I would kill them. That is not bragging, it is just the reality of the situation.



How can you beat a knife if you cannot beat your own ego?


----------



## Cruentus

Clive said:
			
		

> How can you beat a knife if you cannot beat your own ego?



Hi Clive.

No official warning here, just a friendly suggestion from someone who has been on MartialTalk for years.

It's generally considered poor "Nettiquite" to dig up a dead thread for the sole purpose of insulting or disagreeing with someone. "Shadow Hunter" hasn't posted on this board for quite sometime, so he probably wouldn't even know to respond to your comment. Although I am sure you did not have ill intentions, in cases like these it is probably best to just let the dead horse lie.

In fact, as I read this, I realize that Jerry gave the same suggestion to another member on this same thread above. In either case, it is a good suggestion to follow in the future.   

Yours,

Paul


----------



## FDVargas0351

I hate to say it but I tend to agree with Shadow.  I train both tactical knife work and the dueling variation.  And yes 99% of ALL (regardless of system) unarmed defenses against a knife are a slim shot at best if you are unarmed facing a committed attacker who has a knife.  People survive knife fights all the time, but are usually seriously injured in the process.  I think that shadow was trying to make a good point but it came across wrong.


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## arnisador

Yes, the knife is very dangerous, and there's no sure-fire defense.


----------



## Knarfan

Shadow Hunter said:
			
		

> I can only speak from my decades of experience of course, but so far I have not run across anyone who practices a knife centered art that could stand up unarmed to some of the nasty moves that are being taught in some corners of the world on using a knife to kill someone.
> 
> But they all think they can until I prove them otherwise. Within a few minutes I can teach them the nasty moves and then they can turn the tables on me. I would not go up against many of them on a knife to knife combat, but few criminals would take that chance anyways.
> 
> Again, this is just my experience after a few decades of a learning nasty stuff.


What I find most interesting about alot of the conversations that deal with knife fighting is that it almost always starts with a very aggressive or kind of defensive tone . there is always the player that has what they feel is a profound point , that they have to validate with some pretty extreme statements . Now I'm not really debating weather these statments are true . Really I could care less . What I really find humerous is that , there is still alot of unanswered questions regarding knife fighting , yet we have so many experts , who like to make alot of blanket statements . I mean really , do you think that you are making some kind of sophisticated argument ? I'll start with the obvious points . Number one it's really common knowledge that , defending against a knife if you are unarmed is probably one of the most difficult tasks to accomplish . there are just so many things in the feeders favor . Most FMA practitioners realize that . No matter what you think . All I can say is your fooling yourself if you think otherwise . That is precisly why alot of FMA knife arts are very aggressive & OFFENSIVE in nature , not DEFENSIVE . I think you can relate to that ? Another obvious point is that you refer to your moves as quoate "nasty" , as if FMA knife moves aren't "NASTY" . All I can say to that is , don't insult my intelligents . Aren't knife moves in general "NASTY" ! Try not to take my statements personally . I'm not trying to minimize your statements . I think that I understand your thought process to a certain extent . I just don't entirely agree with you . Now I think that your attitude probably is a big reason that you are sucessfull . I just don't think that you know the enemy as well as you think . In fact I know you don't , but really who cares . You are 100% sure of yourself . Which is probably a very important ingrediant in your recipe for success . Really when you are talking about a serious knife encounter it is probably a good thing . I'v trained with alot of people who's skill level will make your jaw drop . Which I'm sure you have . Remember the better the compitition , the better you will be . The thing that I find most obvious is that , it's really anybodys guess who would come out on top ? With a blade you only need one "NASTY" cut . Agreed ? That being said , anybody who has done any kind of quoate real serious knife training knows that there are NO ABSOLUTS . So really , what I think your weakess is , exactly the point that you are most adament about , that you have your enemys every move figured out ahead of time . Because serious players know better & if you don't think so ,you haven't been training with the right people . I think I can predict what your response will be , but really don't take it personal . I'm just trying to make my point . I think that you bring up alot of interesting points & I have to admit you do sound sure of yourself . So that tells me that you must have some serious tricks up your sleeve . I try not to ever underestimate my enemy . There are alot of things that can get you killed . The idea is to avoid conflict , especially when it involves weapons . There's almost never a happy ending . It's really not a game . It's a tragedy ....

respects 
Frank


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## Knarfan

Hi, 
I would like to send apologies in advance for my previous post . I didn't mean to beat a dead horse . To be honest , I didn't read the whole thread before I posted . I had no idea that it was 8 pages long & somewhat heated . After going back & reading the whole thread (which I should have done in the first place) I know realize that my response was probably not a good idea . I did try to edit , but for some reason I couldn't . I'll try to be more careful in the future .

Respects
Frank


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## Rich Parsons

sayoc FF said:
			
		

> Hi,
> I would like to send apologies in advance for my previous post . I didn't mean to beat a dead horse . To be honest , I didn't read the whole thread before I posted . I had no idea that it was 8 pages long & somewhat heated . After going back & reading the whole thread (which I should have done in the first place) I know realize that my response was probably not a good idea . I did try to edit , but for some reason I couldn't . I'll try to be more careful in the future .
> 
> Respects
> Frank



Frank,

The Edit is available for a short period after the post is made. If you do not get to it right away, then the edit is removed. 

Peace

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Super Moderator
 :asian:


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## Knarfan

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Frank,
> 
> The Edit is available for a short period after the post is made. If you do not get to it right away, then the edit is removed.
> 
> Peace
> 
> Rich Parsons
> Martial Talk
> Super Moderator
> :asian:


Thanks Rich :ultracool .

Frank


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## Josh

good thread.



Only the "strong" survive.


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## IMAA

well, the only thing I have to say is don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

If someone is going to kill you or cut you w/ a knife chances are your not going to be able to do anything about it...It will be so fast, and so discreat no matter how many disarms, or drills you know your a dead man walking...The knife duels of the past where 2 guys square off w/ a knife just doesnt happen anymore...


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## Knarfan

IMAA said:
			
		

> well, the only thing I have to say is don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
> 
> If someone is going to kill you or cut you w/ a knife chances are your not going to be able to do anything about it...It will be so fast, and so discreat no matter how many disarms, or drills you know your a dead man walking...The knife duels of the past where 2 guys square off w/ a knife just doesnt happen anymore...


I have two questions that maybe you can help me with . #1 What type of training would you suggest to help someone avoid being caught off guard ?
#2 Are you agreeing that knife training will get you killed or do you think knife training is helpful , but only if you understand the realities as you see them ?
The reason that I am asking you question #1 is because of your line of work . I figure you have alot of experiance . The reason I am asking you the 2nd question is because it looks like you have alot of FMA /weapons training .
One point that I would like to make pertaining to question # 1 is that , I hear alot of people say that someone will sneak up on you & you will never know what happened . We'll I don't think from my experiances that that is necessarily true . I'v had people attempt that move on me & they weren't very successful & I do not carry a firearm . I grew up in the city so I'm used to dealing with people in close quarters . That being said I do think the guy doing the sneak attack has a hugh advantage . I just think one on one that there are alot of people that I think can handle that . Alot has to do with profileing the perp , before the attack . 

Frank


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