# The definition of a McDojo!!



## AMP-RYU

For all those wondering what Mcdojo is check out this schools site. Look at their masters and black belt and look at their testing requirements! Its hilarious!!!!!!!!!


WorldTaekwondo.com:erg:


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## TheEdge883

Not really sure where your problem with this school comes from. The school looks like a typical TKD dojang. Mind clarifying your posting?


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## Tetsujin

This is a McDojo.


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## jarrod

Tetsujin said:


> This is a McDojo.


 
that's...wow.  was that the whole test?  was that after they ran a marathon or something?

jf


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## Sylo

To me there are many things that can/cannot signify a mcdojo..

here are a few of those things...

1. extremely high prices
2. Package deals for families (not always)
3. extra curricular activites that have little to do with the art (foam weapons)
4. exhorbatant amount of belts, with strange non standard colors (camo, pink, etc.)
5. Testing fees for stripes and in between ranks
6. fees for everything, even things you wouldn't think about
7. Lax Instruction


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## terryl965

All I know is Mc Dojo's are making money off these people, while a real school stuggles to pay the bils.


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## Sylo

terryl965 said:


> All I know is Mc Dojo's are making money off these people, while a real school stuggles to pay the bils.


 
They don't know the difference. If its easy, it must be good right?


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## terryl965

Sylo said:


> They don't know the difference. If its easy, it must be good right?


 
In some people minds it is, me make it smell like sweat and I am there. I can remember what a old  workout plcae smelled like.


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## BrandonLucas

You can still sweat at a McDojo/McDojang.  The instruction may be lax, but it doesn't mean that people still don't get a good workout...but, by the same token, they may not be learning any or all of the art.

Prices for everything should be the biggest thing to watch out for...it's one thing to require that everyone own *every* piece of sparring equipment made...it's another to requre that everyone purchase it only through the dojo/dojang.  

You shouldn't have to pay a testing fee when you're not testing for the next full rank...sure, you can test for stripes on your belt, and I understand their value....but it shouldn't cost anything to test for a couple of strips of electrical tape on the end of your belt.

The price that you pay per month shouldn't be more expensive than your average powerbill at home...if it costs more to train at a dojo than it does to have lights on at your house, then you should probably rethink your priorities...unless, of course, you have a small, energy effecient home...in which case, you suck for being able to save that much money.

Sometimes, family package deals are a good idea, sometimes they're not...I think the family package deals I would watch out for are the ones that have the entire family testing for ranks at the same time...look around and see how many families you see in the dojo/dojang that all have the same rank, especially the higher rank ones.  You shouldn't see an entire family of redbelts...usually people take different lengths of time to earn higher ranks.  Little Billy may take 6 months to go from Blue Belt to Red Belt, while it takes Daddy only 2 months.

Watch out for a large number of blackbelts...not that a single dojo/dojang can only have a certain number, but remember that a blackbelt should be the hardest belt to earn.

Also, watch out for wee little blackbelts...typically under 10 years old. 

If you sit in and watch a class, pay close attention to the blackbelts in the class, if there are any.  Blackbelts can be out of shape, but you should be able to tell why they earned their blackbelt initially.  Unless there's something physically limiting the blackbelt that prohibits movement, their technique had better be lightyears beyond the whitebelts.

Count how many belts there are between white and blackbelt.  More than 6?  It's been done with an extra belt or 2 thrown in...but more than 8 belts...yeah, something's not right.

The typical progression of rank in TKD is white, yellow, green, blue, red, black.  There are variations in there, especially when we're talking about different arts.  But, when you start seeing camo, tie-dye, rainbow, or any other combination of colors, be wary.

The instructor had better be able to perform the techniques...note that I'm saying instructor here...not the person actually "running" the school...but the person on the matt that's giving the directions.  If they can't kick and punch like the students can....then you may want to start walking away.

Credentials is another thing...many instructors have quite a few certificates and things hanging on the wall.  Feel free to inspect any of them, and remember what the certs are for so that you can research them later...or, better yet, ask about them.  And then research them.  Just because an instructor has 17 plaques on the wall doesn't mean that he's any more qualified to instruct than any of the whitebelts in class.

So, yeah, that's my list that I usually keep in mind.  I'm sure I'm missing some things in there.


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## Drac

Tetsujin said:


> This is a McDojo.


 
That is just plain sad...


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## dancingalone

Tetsujin said:


> This is a McDojo.



Self-delusion can be very powerful.  If my technique looked like that I would be embarrassed to even wear a brown belt, much less a 3rd dan!  His instructor did him no service at all, passing him through the ranks.


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## crushing

It's funny that no one ever belongs to a McDojo, but just about everyone knows plenty of other places that are McDojos.


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## MasterWright

Are they all like that?


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## Cirdan

Tetsujin said:


> This is a McDojo.


 
:lfao: Thanks for the laugh, I needed that. 

3rd black grading? That wouldn`t pass  yellow in a serious school. Honorary pink maybe.


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## Sylo

> Originally Posted by *Tetsujin*
> 
> 
> _This is a McDojo._


 
Oooooo where do I sign up?

j/k


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## Manny

Tetsujin said:


> This is a McDojo.


 
I agree, didin't like the 3er dan test.

Manny


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## Manny

Back in my old days, we train in a small (but good) dojan with wood floor,where blisters in the feet were comon, the training was hard, we did knuckle pushups, the lockers ohh yes they smell like hell I mean sweat and hard work, sparring was full using only shin pads (not every one used at that time) and a chest protector, forget helmet and mouth protectors or forearm/elbow pads.

The technikes were ALL MARTIAL, with speed and grace, all the comends were in Korean languaje, we use a lot thew power shiled to develop strong acurated kicks, we practide punches.

I had twice exmans per year one every six months, I got my BB afther 4.5 years of good work, my second dan test will cost me:

-2 years of hard work.
- two injures on my feet.
- a lot of pain and sweat.
- a lot of care of my sambuning and classmates.

Afther seen this post I'm glad I work out in a a good dojan, with a good sambunim, maybe not as old fashioned as I like it, but not a McDojo.

Manny


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## SA_BJJ

Manny said:


> Back in my old days, we train in a small (but good) dojan with wood floor,where blisters in the feet were comon, the training was hard, we did knuckle pushups, the lockers ohh yes they smell like hell I mean sweat and hard work, sparring was full using only shin pads (not every one used at that time) and a chest protector, forget helmet and mouth protectors or forearm/elbow pads.
> 
> The technikes were ALL MARTIAL, with speed and grace, all the comends were in Korean languaje, we use a lot thew power shiled to develop strong acurated kicks, we practide punches.
> 
> I had twice exmans per year one every six months, I got my BB afther 4.5 years of good work, my second dan test will cost me:
> 
> -2 years of hard work.
> - two injures on my feet.
> - a lot of pain and sweat.
> - a lot of care of my sambuning and classmates.
> 
> Afther seen this post I'm glad I work out in a a good dojan, with a good sambunim, maybe not as old fashioned as I like it, but not a McDojo.
> 
> Manny


Theres this crazy word I think of when I read your post...lawsuit.  It happens and thats why the training has gotten a little "easier".


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## jim777

Tetsujin said:


> This is a McDojo.



I wish I could laugh at that, but it's just too sad. To think of all the time wasted at that wretched excuse for a school...time that could have been so much better spent somewhere else. Those poor kids are being robbed, plain and simple.


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## jarrod

crushing said:


> It's funny that no one ever belongs to a McDojo, but just about everyone knows plenty of other places that are McDojos.


 

i'll 'fess up to attending a mcdojo or two.  quick promotions, lots of testing fees, questionable skills.  it's a stepping stone, kind of like letting kids read goosebumps & comic books hoping that their taste & ability will mature.  if that's all there is around, sometimes that's what you have to work with.  

none of the skills looked half as bad as what was in that clip though.  the technique always looked more or less correct even if nobody could figure out how to apply it.

jf


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## Fiendlover

now that I read what to look for in a mcdojo, I can kinda see some things that fit into my school and i kinda feel really ashamed and disappointed now.


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## grydth

crushing said:


> It's funny that no one ever belongs to a McDojo, but just about everyone knows plenty of other places that are McDojos.



I got taken once many years back - badly. It is probably not the type of thing most want to speak of.


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## Brad Dunne

:barf::idunno::vu::jaw-dropping::lol2::shrug::eye-popping::erg::lfao:


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## mango.man

Our former McDojo http://www.govtkd.com/ which many of you know I have posted about here before.


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## wade

OK, before I am banned, see Charles, this is why I could never be Samantha's instructor, I could never ever measure up to your level. BTW, I will still be bringing about 5 female BB's to Vegas. If we have time and the weight classes are close, want a little scrimmage?


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## Gordon Nore

I think people are attracted to McDojo (particularly parents seeking a school for their kids) because they are looking for measurable results. McDojo look good to a consumer with no MA experience. They are built for customer service. In some of the links posted, and links I've seen elsewhere, and one McDojang I've visited, they have all kinds of ways of appealing to their greatest potential market -- parents buying lessons for kids. 

Set all of the counter-arguments aside and look at what is appealing to the consumer...

McDojo/DoJang


are clean and bright
have a reception desk, which makes people feel like they're being served
an in-school store for one-stop shopping
are relentlessly coloured red, white and blue, with flags and credos (red and white in my country)
big websites
programs for every need and desire, with an emphasis on 'your child's needs'
salesmanship
Quick Edit, forgot to add...
All the photos of master and grandmaster
A trophy case

It's like that little exhilaration that comes from buying a new car.

I had a conversation with a neighbour who was thinking about enrolling her son in a storefront school -- from whence the master fled inside a year, leaving a trail of long-term contracts and enraged parents, I should add. I was trying, very gently, to explain to her that the most expensive commercial school on the nearest busy street isn't automatically a better martial arts experience than her child might have at the "Y" or a community centre.

McDojo look like the places parents are supposed to send their kids because many parents have bought into -- give my kid the best of everything. Newer, shinier, more expensive seems like a better value for the dollar. Given the choice, parents send their kids to a better-looking pre-school, or day-care, or even private school that offers more amenities.

Am I defending the content of what is provided. Of course not. However, the fancy looking McDojo also seem to deliver what many people want.


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## RobertS

Interesting discussion.  

Gordon, I think you make some good points.  However, I can't see why you couldn't have many of the things on your list and still have excellent instruction within the school.  You're right though, McDojo's don't make money through the quality of their instruction, but rather their appeal to parents and consumers.  I think a lot of people just want to say they have a black belt even when they know deep down they didn't have to work that hard to get it.  It's a shame really.


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## RobertS

BrandonLucas said:


> Count how many belts there are between white and blackbelt.  More than 6?  It's been done with an extra belt or 2 thrown in...but more than 8 belts...yeah, something's not right.



Is six belts really typical?  I've trained in two schools and one had I think 8 belts and the other has ten (white, yellow, gold, orange, green, blue, brown, purple, red, navy blue, black.)

This seems indicative of the owner trying to make more money but doesn't necessarily mean you aren't learning quality martial art skills.  Do you folks think that the defining trait of a McDojo is easy testing or trying to gouge every single dollar out of the students possible?  These two things don't necessarily have to go together even though they often do.


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## Gordon Nore

RobertS said:


> Interesting discussion.
> 
> Gordon, I think you make some good points.  However, I can't see why you couldn't have many of the things on your list and still have excellent instruction within the school.  You're right though, McDojo's don't make money through the quality of their instruction, but rather their appeal to parents and consumers.  I think a lot of people just want to say they have a black belt even when they know deep down they didn't have to work that hard to get it.  It's a shame really.



You certainly can have excellent instruction; however, I was speaking places that have everything but... extreme McDojo. I think the thing is, once you've set up a consumer-provider dynamic, in which customer-pleasing comes first, it doesn't really matter if you have these great instructors. 

If in the first meeting with a parent, there's this big deal about how long it takes, what it costs, etc., to be a black belt, that will influence the parent's purchasing choice, just as it will influence the instruction.


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## wade

To be honest, I think what I run is a McDojo. Sad isn't it. Not that I run one but that I am proud of it. I started my school in Feb 1978 and have been running it since, in the same 5 mile area. I have turned out some very nice players, the latest is Ashley Jobin who first beat  Meia Eubanks and then knocked out Danielle Harrison for the gold in Detroit. She has been with me since she was 7 years old. I focus mainly on sport TKD and am not embarrarsed about it. What can I do, I am too old to change and have no desire to anyway. Recently we went to the International Friendship Tournament in Portland, Or. My McDojo students won 3 Gold, 2 Silver and 3 bronze in the black belt divisions. I guress a "real" school would have done better but we work with what we have.


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## RobertS

Wade, what makes you call your school a McDojo?  The focus on sport TKD?


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## Twin Fist

ok, part of brain just died watching that.........


as to belts, for arts descended from the japanese, the 10 kyu/gup-10 dan system is standard, more than 10 belts before black? thats a BIG red flag for me.


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## Windsinger

Tetsujin said:


> This is a McDojo.


I don't want to sound like I'm bragging or anything (though if it comes across that way, my apologies), but I'm going for my yellow belt on Saturday, and even _I_ consider what I saw there to be sloppy technique.


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## Gordon Nore

Tetsujin said:


> This is a McDojo.



That video. Well, first thing I noticed was how young the candidate was. He's a boy in his teens. Why does he need to be a third dan. Is somebody going call that kid, "Master."

His technique tells me he hasn't been training that many years, and he's been taught to add too many tools to his arsenal without having really grasped his basics. This is what I don't like about rushed training. A kid who's actually spent three months of back-fist / reverse-punch / kick, is gonna look pretty damn good and be half-way effective. Do stuff like that for five years, and you've got a student that even the black belts won't fool with.

This kid can do things I certainly can't. I can't leap and spin -- never could. I'm a brick. But in this instance there's a bunch of telegraphed, uncertain, leaping-spinning kicks that are absolutely redundant, given the level the various fighters are at. A spin-kick is dandy (1) if you can do it, which I can't, and (2) if you can do it without the other guy seeing it coming. In this case, if the other fighter were more skilled, or at least more aggressive, these sparring contests would end with someone on the floor.

So that's where I see this as all being terribly unfortunate. At a lower level, this kid would be a good fighter. He's obviously learned how to do things -- he just hasn't done them enough. There's lots of good ingredients here. It's obvious that observers are excited. At the end of the grading, you can see the students are attentive to their teacher. And the teacher clearly shows some fondness for his students.

So why does this all have to happen -- or so it appears to me -- so quickly? That could be a room full of orange and green belts, savouring another moment in a longer journey.


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## artFling

A McDojo offers a value to its customers or it would not stay in business.  It is no crime for them to be good at marketing.  Many a GM worked out of a garage or something similar and lived in poverty.  They were all about the art and we are glad for it.  Many have offered a watered down MA.  It is up to the students and their parents to pay attention to what they are buying.  Even in my small town of 30,000 there are several offerings.  Some aren't worth the time of day.  Some are so rough that people go to the hospital regularly from training there.  Some are people who love their art and teach out of their garage.  There are even the Tae Kwon Do cardio type places.  Maybe some of the complaints seen here are from people who haven't learned how to properly market the good work they do.  The so called McDojo offers a value that people are willing to buy.  If they are being deceived, they are probably wanting to be deceived.  My family and I train in a garage where our instructor takes pride in his teaching.  And yes we get a family rate.  And there is pain and tears and even some blood.  We get a real value.  This video was sad.  But those training there want that kind of training.  They want to say they are black belts or whatever.  That bright, shiney (bs) school could offer real training, but it gives what the people are buying.  It is harder to build a bright, shiney school that really teaches SD because the overhead is high and rent has to be paid, but I have to believe it is doable.  It is always harder to make something great.  It takes sacrifice.  Still, the McDojo gives them what they want.  Ok, did I ramble?


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## mango.man

Here is a cool looking McDojang college http://www.worldtaekwondocollege.com/academics.php

_After mastering the intensive 3 year program of the WTC, our graduates are  			proud holders of a Referee Certificate, Instructor's Certificate, and  			a third degree black belt. 			_


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## terryl965

wade said:


> To be honest, I think what I run is a McDojo. Sad isn't it. Not that I run one but that I am proud of it. I started my school in Feb 1978 and have been running it since, in the same 5 mile area. I have turned out some very nice players, the latest is Ashley Jobin who first beat Meia Eubanks and then knocked out Danielle Harrison for the gold in Detroit. She has been with me since she was 7 years old. I focus mainly on sport TKD and am not embarrarsed about it. What can I do, I am too old to change and have no desire to anyway. Recently we went to the International Friendship Tournament in Portland, Or. My McDojo students won 3 Gold, 2 Silver and 3 bronze in the black belt divisions. I guress a "real" school would have done better but we work with what we have.


 
Wade you are far from a Mcdojo and if you believe you are then I must be as well. Your players are top notch for competition and if need be they know how to protect themselfs. I am hoping in Vegas we maybe able to finally match up between your girls and some od mine. Here is hoping to compete against you.


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## Sylo

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=1264j...********/forums/showthread.php?t=78705&page=2


> This is a McDojo.



You know I didn't get to watch this yesterday. I just had an idea of what it was. I honestly did not realize just how terrible this was. Oh, and who would have guessed it was an ATA school. (not all of them are bad)

If this kid is 3rd dan. Then I'm Jhoon Rhee.


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## Korppi76

mango.man said:


> Here is a cool looking McDojang college http://www.worldtaekwondocollege.com/academics.php
> 
> _After mastering the intensive 3 year program of the WTC, our graduates are              proud holders of a Referee Certificate, Instructor's Certificate, and              a third degree black belt.             _


That seems more like instructor training. At least courses seemed more like how to teach and school management . Only that third degree black belt part seems funny. (except if requirement for that training is 2nd degree black belt)


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## BrandonLucas

RobertS said:


> Is six belts really typical? I've trained in two schools and one had I think 8 belts and the other has ten (white, yellow, gold, orange, green, blue, brown, purple, red, navy blue, black.)
> 
> This seems indicative of the owner trying to make more money but doesn't necessarily mean you aren't learning quality martial art skills. Do you folks think that the defining trait of a McDojo is easy testing or trying to gouge every single dollar out of the students possible? These two things don't necessarily have to go together even though they often do.


 
A large number of belts doesn't mean poor quality instruction...not by any means.  It usually means that the instructor is charging more money than what they should.

Have you ever stopped to think about how many ranks someone would really *need*?  Wouldn't it be more important that the student spends an appropriate amount of time training before being told that he/she is ready to use the knowledge that they now have?

And that's another key point right there...if someone is able to make the journey from white to blackbelt in a short amount of time...say around a year...then something's not right.  Either the student was given rank too quickly and passed through the art, or the student was truly worthy of passing in that amount of time.

99.99999% of the time, it's the former and not the latter.


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## Daniel Sullivan

TheEdge883 said:


> Not really sure where your problem with this school comes from. The school looks like a typical TKD dojang. Mind clarifying your posting?


Possibly he's upset about some of the things said about his own style over in this thread:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36049

No opinion of the style or the schools that teach it, so I have no comments about it.  Not sure why he is deliberately going out of his way to degrade another school after taking such offense when it was done to his own.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

YounWhaMann said:


> For all those wondering what Mcdojo is check out this schools site. Look at their masters and black belt and look at their testing requirements! Its hilarious!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> WorldTaekwondo.com:erg:


How is this hilarious?  What is it about their masters and black belt that makes them a Mcdojo?  The one picture of a master doing any technique was Linda Roth executing a front kick, and it looked quite good.  Some of them have been featured on the cover of MA trade publications; not that this makes them any better, but it certainly is an accomplishment.  What is it about the testing requirements that you feel is amiss?  Please clarify your statement.

Frankly, I didn't see anything that would turn me off to this school just perusing the website.  You were already asked in the very first response what your problem with this school was, but you've yet to respond on this thread at all.  

Clarify your reasons for even starting this thread.  If you cannot, then you shouldn't have started it in the first place, as all you're doing is degrading another school with no specific reason as to why.

Daniel


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## Twin Fist

agree with Celtic tiger

other than teaching crescent kicks at white belt, and having required breaking at white, there is nothing about the web site that screams "McDojo"


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## BrandonLucas

Twin Fist said:


> agree with Celtic tiger
> 
> other than teaching crescent kicks at white belt, and having required breaking at white, there is nothing about the web site that screams "McDojo"


 
I don't think even this would indicate a mcdojo, either...just calls into question why the students are being taught these techniques this early.


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## Twin Fist

true, having those requirements at white belt doesnt scream McDojo, but it is a big fat hairy red flag.

for me anyway

YMMV


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## Daniel Sullivan

crushing said:


> It's funny that no one ever belongs to a McDojo, but just about everyone knows plenty of other places that are McDojos.


Most of us view our own school from the inside out.  I am very careful not to speak negatively of other schools or organizations on a public forum, even if I've had personal experience with them.

I often wonder how our own school looks from the outside in.  Who knows?  I could be  our own website on some other forum with someone posting a 'look at this McDojo' thread.  After all, we have:

1. multiple schools
2. an after school program
3. a summer camp
4. poom rank students who wear black belts
5. contracts
6. little dragons at one of our locations
7. a GM with a 9th dan in two different arts

All of those things are often included in Mcdojo descriptions and we've got them all.  No BB or Masters clubs, but the presence of such clubs doesn't automatically guarantee poor instruction.

Perhaps we should all think very carefully about throwing stones at other dojos/dojangs.

Daniel


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## dancingalone

Celtic Tiger said:


> Perhaps we should all think very carefully about throwing stones at other dojos/dojangs.
> Daniel



Good post, Daniel, but we have some rather empirical proof to look at.  At the very least, this school is guilty of some serious belt inflation.  As I remarked above, this boy's instructor did him no favors moving him up through the ranks.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> agree with Celtic tiger
> 
> other than teaching crescent kicks at white belt, and having required breaking at white, there is nothing about the web site that screams "McDojo"


Perhaps they're calling an into out axe kick a crescent kick? 

Our dojang requires breaking at white belt to get promoted to yellow tag (no electrical tape, thank God!), so there is yet another thing to add to the list in my previous post.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> Good post, Daniel, but we have some rather empirical proof to look at. At the very least, this school is guilty of some serious belt inflation. As I remarked above, this boy's instructor did him no favors moving him up through the ranks.


Thanks!

I'll have to take everyone's word for it; I cannot watch the video at work because my company blocks YouTube. 

But I'll go out on a limb and say that I would be curious to see what an outsider to our school from another KKW school would think of me doing my forms.  

I'm speaking generally (not about the video you referrence), but it is very easy for me to grab someone else's video from You Tube and pick it apart on a public forum while never posting a video of myself performing, say Koryo for comparison.  

Sorry, I'm rather put off by the original post.

Daniel


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## BrandonLucas

dancingalone said:


> Good post, Daniel, but we have some rather empirical proof to look at. At the very least, this school is guilty of some serious belt inflation. As I remarked above, this boy's instructor did him no favors moving him up through the ranks.


 
I think that would be the biggest issue...that and the number of belts...

His technique wasn't worthless...just not up to par of a 3rd dan, like someone was saying before.  I think he had some more work to do before he reached 3rd dan...alot more work.

It's almost a double edged sword in cases like this:  it's sad that people are coming out of this dojo at the rank that they are, basically devaluing the blackbelt rank.  But, at the same time, it's not like these students are untrainable.  They are being taught the skills, just not being drilled the techniques.


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## Flying Crane

BrandonLucas said:


> A large number of belts doesn't mean poor quality instruction...not by any means. It usually means that the instructor is charging more money than what they should.


 
well, not really.  It could just mean that that's the way the syllabus is structured.  The number of belts has never been consistent from one system to another, even one school to another within the same or related systems.  

Maybe the system is simply extensive, and it is parcelled out in manageable chunks, and it needs that many chunks to reach dan level.  Just a suggestion.

Not every teacher charges testing fees, or outrageous monthly fees.  Another belt is often not just an excuse to bleed money out of a student.  My teacher charges very very little for monthly fees, especially considering the average rate in our area.  He charges zero testing fees, and even provides the new belt when a student passes.  He is definitely not getting rich off of this, regardles of the number of belts.  As a Tracy kenpo school, we have 9 steps to and including shodan: yellow, orange, purple, green, three levels of brown, then shodan.  It's just an extensive system.  And my teacher is one of the senior-most instructors in the Tracy system, which some people might use as an excuse to charge more, but he doesn't.  So while what you say MAY have some truth in some cases, here's just an example of where it just isn't true.

This really raises another question: how much money SHOULD a teacher charge?  It's really hard to define this.  Personally, I believe that the arts generally should not be one's primary source of income, because it's easy for money to get in the way of quality instruction.  But some people are able to run a successful and profitable business in the martial arts, and still give high quality instruction.  So it's tough to define how much is appropriate.  But that's really another discussion altogether.



> Have you ever stopped to think about how many ranks someone would really *need*? Wouldn't it be more important that the student spends an appropriate amount of time training before being told that he/she is ready to use the knowledge that they now have?


 
well, it's not about NEEDING ranks, but rather that the curriculum is divided into manageable chunks that make sense.  I guess I've never thought about it in terms of how many colored belt rankings are needed.  I just saw it as the road to learning a complete system, which Dan ranks are also part of.

Also, I don't know that you can ever tell a student that they are "ready" to use their knowledge.  It's not like a student steps over a line, and now it all works, while yesterday it didn't.  Being ready to use their knowledge depends on what's inside the individual.  A white belt may have "what it takes", and be ready to use his stuff after a month.  A highly trained black belt who has never been tested in a real self defense situation may find that he isn't "ready" to use it, because he doesn't have what it takes on the inside.  He just didn't have an opportunity to find out, for real.



> And that's another key point right there...if someone is able to make the journey from white to blackbelt in a short amount of time...say around a year...then something's not right. Either the student was given rank too quickly and passed through the art, or the student was truly worthy of passing in that amount of time.
> 
> 99.99999% of the time, it's the former and not the latter.


 
Well, I will point out that back in the 1950s-1960s, it was fairly common that someone would earn their shodan in under two years.  I'm just pointing this out, not because I'm advocating quick ranking, but rather noting the contrast between now and then.  Who decided that shodan should take 4 or 5 or 8 years, instead of two?  When did that happen, and what brought it about?  

Of course fewer people back then were training at all, and those that did were probably more willing to train hard than people do today, because I think more schools back then had a tougher mentality.

Just food for thought.


----------



## BrandonLucas

Flying Crane said:


> well, not really. It could just mean that that's the way the syllabus is structured. The number of belts has never been consistent from one system to another, even one school to another within the same or related systems.
> 
> Maybe the system is simply extensive, and it is parcelled out in manageable chunks, and it needs that many chunks to reach dan level. Just a suggestion.
> 
> Not every teacher charges testing fees, or outrageous monthly fees. Another belt is often not just an excuse to bleed money out of a student. My teacher charges very very little for monthly fees, especially considering the average rate in our area. He charges zero testing fees, and even provides the new belt when a student passes. He is definitely not getting rich off of this, regardles of the number of belts. As a Tracy kenpo school, we have 9 steps to and including shodan: yellow, orange, purple, green, three levels of brown, then shodan. It's just an extensive system. And my teacher is one of the senior-most instructors in the Tracy system, which some people might use as an excuse to charge more, but he doesn't. So while what you say MAY have some truth in some cases, here's just an example of where it just isn't true.
> 
> This really raises another question: how much money SHOULD a teacher charge? It's really hard to define this. Personally, I believe that the arts generally should not be one's primary source of income, because it's easy for money to get in the way of quality instruction. But some people are able to run a successful and profitable business in the martial arts, and still give high quality instruction. So it's tough to define how much is appropriate. But that's really another discussion altogether.
> 
> 
> 
> well, it's not about NEEDING ranks, but rather that the curriculum is divided into manageable chunks that make sense. I guess I've never thought about it in terms of how many colored belt rankings are needed. I just saw it as the road to learning a complete system, which Dan ranks are also part of.
> 
> Also, I don't know that you can ever tell a student that they are "ready" to use their knowledge. It's not like a student steps over a line, and now it all works, while yesterday it didn't. Being ready to use their knowledge depends on what's inside the individual. A white belt may have "what it takes", and be ready to use his stuff after a month. A highly trained black belt who has never been tested in a real self defense situation may find that he isn't "ready" to use it, because he doesn't have what it takes on the inside. He just didn't have an opportunity to find out, for real.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I will point out that back in the 1950s-1960s, it was fairly common that someone would earn their shodan in under two years. I'm just pointing this out, not because I'm advocating quick ranking, but rather noting the contrast between now and then. Who decided that shodan should take 4 or 5 or 8 years, instead of two? When did that happen, and what brought it about?
> 
> Of course fewer people back then were training at all, and those that did were probably more willing to train hard than people do today, because I think more schools back then had a tougher mentality.
> 
> Just food for thought.


 

I agree with what you're saying.  As far as the extensive number of ranks go, I do agree that it depends on the cirriculum, as many are different...I guess the thing to watch for is how many of the testings are charged.  

As far as how much the testing fee is, I think it should be left up to the school...but, the price should be capped accross the board...there was a thread not too long ago for someone paying thousands of dollars to test for a dan.

Now, the key point that you made about the length of time it takes to reach first dan is that the people who trained back in the day did nothing but train...and they trained harder than most schools train today.

And I'm certainly not saying that earning a 1st dan can't be done in a year...but it takes a special student to really earn it, IMO.  It took me 3 years for mine, and I was given ample opportunity to test in that 3 year span for different ranks.  I just wasn't ready to test.  Plain and simple.

So, I think maybe the bigger issue would be that many insructors allow their students to test and pass the test before they are ready for the rank.


----------



## Flying Crane

BrandonLucas said:


> As far as how much the testing fee is, I think it should be left up to the school...but, the price should be capped accross the board...there was a thread not too long ago for someone *paying thousands of dollars to test for a dan*.


 
in my opinion, that is inappropriate, I would never pay it, nor charge it.  Actually, my kenpo teacher has told me that the one thing that Al Tracy will actually demote someone for is if he finds out they charge a fee for a test, he is just that dead-set against it.  

Certainly fees, especially testing fees can get out of hand.  BUt i think that there is probably a range in which most people would feel it is reasonable, and I don't think it's possible to make a hard limit and say, "above this amount, it is simply too much", because there are too many factors that go into it.



> Now, the key point that you made about the length of time it takes to reach first dan is that the people who trained back in the day did nothing but train...and they trained harder than most schools train today.


 
well, yes and no.  I suspect these people also had jobs or school and families that they had to balance, so no I don't believe they did nothing but train.  However, I agree in that they probably trained harder and more brutally than most do today.  I think martial arts schools were more restrictive in the sense that if you weren't up to taking a bit of punishment, you didn't stick around because there wasnt' the threat of lawsuits like there is today, and people were training to learn how to fight, not using it as a social outlet or a source of exercise.  So the mindset of the people at that time was different, and those that couldn't hack it, left.



> So, I think maybe the bigger issue would be that many insructors allow their students to test and pass the test before they are ready for the rank.


 
yes, I will not disagree with that.  I actually agree with much of what you had said earlier, but just felt compelled to point out that it simply isn't true in all cases so it's important to be careful about making blanket statements.  But good points that I can agree with, for the most part.

An example: a couple years ago a dojang opened in my neighborhood, and my wife and I frequently walk past in going from here to there and whatnot.  We often see them conducting class, lots of little kids, very few, if any, adults that I've ever seen.  Lot's of little kids with high rank and such.  Yesterday we walked by and noticed a young teenager training, probably about 12-14 years old or so.  Wearing a black belt.  Working thru some combos or a poomsae or something.  It was just really really sloppy.

Now I dunno, maybe he was struggling with something that he had just learned, but still, you would think that at least the basic strikes and blocks and kicks would look cleaner than that.  My wife is a martial artist as well, and we just sort of shake our heads when we pass by that place.


----------



## Twin Fist

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I will point out that back in the 1950s-1960s, it was fairly common that someone would earn their shodan in under two years.



This is true. Back then, every art was "pure"

they hadnt started teaching spinning kicks at japanese schools and grappling at korean schools etc etc

now, every art (more or less) has a MUCH larger body of techniques than it did then.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> This is true. Back then, every art was "pure"
> 
> they hadnt started teaching spinning kicks at japanese schools and grappling at korean schools etc etc
> 
> now, every art (more or less) has a MUCH larger body of techniques than it did then.


I think that also, the people who showed up to train trained a lot harder as a whole, so now, it takes longer to collectively get a class to what was blackbelt level back in the old days.  To be fair, I think that life is also a lot more hectic now than it used to be too.  In my lifetime I have noticed this trend.  

Daniel


----------



## IcemanSK

Celtic Tiger said:


> I think that also, the people who showed up to train trained a lot harder as a whole, so now, it takes longer to collectively get a class to what was blackbelt level back in the old days. To be fair, I think that life is also a lot more hectic now than it used to be too. In my lifetime I have noticed this trend.
> 
> Daniel


 
CT has hit on something here. Most people in America train as a part of their lives...rather than devote their lives to it. We fit it in among other hectic things in our lives. There are few "disciples" of MA anymore. Even colleges & universities have added short-term (but intensive) programs that make it possible to complete a degree in a shortened time period. 

I add that as an example of how things have changed, not as an ideal.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

May not be ideal, but its what we have to work with.  In a way, those who are earnest in their pursuit of the martial arts in the modern day actually may have it harder, albeit for different reasons.  

A dedicated practitioner of the modern era must deal with:

1. serious time constraints
2. having to sift through potentially many very bad schools before finding one that is just okay, let alone very good
3. deal with a tournament/competition environment where the very top competitors are athletes of an order that could not have existed twenty or more years ago and the divide between them and the average competitor is much, much greater than it was twenty or more years ago
4. a general decline in the healthfulness of most modern diets
5. a massive amount of information to sift through due to information overload from the web, television, and the internet, involving many, many fraudulent claims and without much in the way of easily accessable (to the beginner) resource to check it against.

Daniel


----------



## level7

As a newbie, looking at his forms...they were horrible. 

There was no passion, no emphasis, no force, no power...just some kid going through the motions. These forms should have meaning when being executed. Every move should have an exclamation point at the end.

Also, you can tell a black belt just by watching him/her, at least I can. They seem to size you up and look right through you, no fear, very confident. He didn't look that confident or in control to me. Also, the way they move is different then the lower belts. Very fluid movements at least the real ones I've seen.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tetsujin said:


> This is a McDojo.


 
I finally go the link to open, seems sometimes Youtube doesn't want to work at my office...

I am stunned.  

What really amazes me is that these people believe this is something to be proud of, posting it up here on Youtube.  The poster indicated it was a video he made for his fiance's younger brother.  They don't even have a clue that these have got to be the lowest standards on the planet, and they are getting ripped off.  ANY money they have paid to this school is too much, it is really that bad.  I would burn that film and purge it from the world, if it was me.  Unbelieveable.

Did these people do ANY due-diligence?  Did they visit ANY other schools to compare?  Maybe it's the only school around, maybe any other schools nearby are connected to this one, I dunno.  But holy god, I was embarrased just watching it.  How in the name of all that is good and holy does a school like this survive?  Zero training is better than THIS.  

I try to be open-minded and not judge, particularly when it's other styles, but this is just absolutely the worst thing I've ever seen.  I'd give the kid a yellow belt, maybe, if I was feeling generous that day.  What in the hell happened to Tae Kwon Do?  I don't know anything about the ATA, but WOW!  

By the way, the school I mentioned in an earlier post that opened up in my neighborhood a couple years ago, is also ATA.  I guess that explains a lot.

Who is responsible for this clown show?  How does he sleep at night?  What an absolute disgrace.  How does that teacher, in that video, look himself in the mirror each day, after awarding third dan for a performance like that? Jesus mother-****ing Christ!! **** piss **** ***** **** ****ing puke!


----------



## Fiendlover

Flying Crane said:


> I finally go the link to open, seems sometimes Youtube doesn't want to work at my office...
> 
> I am stunned.
> 
> What really amazes me is that these people believe this is something to be proud of, posting it up here on Youtube. The poster indicated it was a video he made for his fiance's younger brother. They don't even have a clue that these have got to be the lowest standards on the planet, and they are getting ripped off. ANY money they have paid to this school is too much, it is really that bad. I would burn that film and purge it from the world, if it was me. Unbelieveable.
> 
> Did these people do ANY due-diligence? Did they visit ANY other schools to compare? Maybe it's the only school around, maybe any other schools nearby are connected to this one, I dunno. But holy god, I was embarrased just watching it. How in the name of all that is good and holy does a school like this survive? Zero training is better than THIS.
> 
> I try to be open-minded and not judge, particularly when it's other styles, but this is just absolutely the worst thing I've ever seen. I'd give the kid a yellow belt, maybe, if I was feeling generous that day. What in the hell happened to Tae Kwon Do? I don't know anything about the ATA, but WOW!
> 
> By the way, the school I mentioned in an earlier post that opened up in my neighborhood a couple years ago, is also ATA. I guess that explains a lot.
> 
> Who is responsible for this clown show? How does he sleep at night? What an absolute disgrace. How does that teacher, in that video, look himself in the mirror each day, after awarding third dan for a performance like that? Jesus mother-****ing Christ!! **** piss **** ***** **** ****ing puke!


 
I completely agree.  Especially with this part. 


Flying Crane said:


> Jesus mother-****ing Christ!! **** piss **** ***** **** ****ing puke!


 
couldn't have stated it better.:uhyeah:


----------



## Gordon Nore

Flying Crane said:


> Did these people do ANY due-diligence? Did they visit ANY other schools to compare? Maybe it's the only school around, maybe any other schools nearby are connected to this one, I dunno. But holy god, I was embarrased just watching it. How in the name of all that is good and holy does a school like this survive? Zero training is better than THIS.



I don't know that 'due diligence' applies in this situation. This is ultimately a consumer choice. Is no martial arts better than this experience? I don't know that. That seems a bit extreme.

I see this merely as people being graded far too fast. That's an assumption on my part, but the boy looks awfully young. Like I say, pretend these are lower-ranked kyu (or gup, I guess), and this ain't such a bad showing.


----------



## Flying Crane

Gordon Nore said:


> I don't know that 'due diligence' applies in this situation. This is ultimately a consumer choice. Is no martial arts better than this experience? I don't know that. That seems a bit extreme.


 
in my opinion, yes, zero training would be better than this.  

as a third dan, this kid might actually believe he can defend himself.  Everything about his training experience has told him so, and he has been validated by his rank.  That misplaced trust might get him killed someday.

this kind of false sense of security could be deadly.



> I see this merely as people being graded far too fast.


 
no doubt!  and in the extreme!



> That's an assumption on my part, but the boy looks awfully young. Like I say, pretend these are lower-ranked kyu (or gup, I guess), and this ain't such a bad showing.


 
But I can't pretend that, because the teacher gave him a bloody third dan, for crying out loud.  It was a bad showing for anything higher than yellow, maybe one step above yellow if yer feeling reaaaallly generous and it's a "kiddie" rank instead of an adult rank.  Anything more than that, and it was a bad showing.  It is what it is, and the teacher gave a third dan for it.  There is no way to pretend it was something other than that, and no way to justify it.

I can't make exceptions for the fact that he is young, either.  It was a third dan, for crying out loud, the kid should never have been allowed to test for that kind of rank to begin with.  And trying to make a distinction between "kiddie" ranking vs. "adult" ranking isn't an excuse either, because it's being presented as a third dan (it wasn't even clear that they were doing this, it actually looked like it was just a regular third dan without any conditions on it, I'm just wracking my brains trying to figure out how this could be justified).  Why would a "kiddie" third dan even exist, much less be the equivalent of an adult yellow belt?  What good does that do anyone?  It just sets the kid up for being fooled, and someday that kid is going to have a really really hard lesson thrown in his face.

the only justice that could be done here is to take the belt back and give the kid a yellow.  there is just no two ways around it.  This was a disservice in the extreme, and that instructor ought to be ashamed of himself.  

Since he belongs to an organization, ATA, what the hell kind of oversight do they have?  What does the parent org. think of this kind of thing?  Do they encourage this?  Does this freakshow come from the top?  Is this the standard of the ATA?  Good god, there is absolutely nothing about this situation that ought to be acceptable.

I've seen lots of discussions here in the threads where people lament the degredation of TKD.  I never would have expected it to actually hit this level of absolute garbage.  If this is becoming the norm in TKD, then the art is truly in trouble.  I commend those out there who strive to keep TKD a viable and effective martial art, but it must be a terrible uphill battle.  

I am just stunned by this display.


----------



## Gordon Nore

Flying Crane said:


> as a third dan, this kid might actually believe he can defend himself.  Everything about his training experience has told him so, and he has been validated by his rank.  That misplaced trust might get him killed someday.



Yeah. I don't disagree. 



> But I can't pretend that, because the teacher gave him a bloody third dan, for crying out loud.  It was a bad showing for anything higher than yellow, maybe one step above yellow if yer feeling reaaaallly generous and it's a "kiddie" rank instead of an adult rank.  Anything more than that, and it was a bad showing.  It is what it is, and the teacher gave a third dan for it.  There is no way to pretend it was something other than that, and no way to justify it.



That's why I don't believe in kiddie ranks, per se. I prefer to see children graded and ranked as conservatively as possible, so when or if they move to an adult class, and are no longer the biggest / strongest / oldest / highest ranked, they keep their rank, and they have to get their game up. I don't like black belts for kids. Period. I don't care if it's a five-year-old dan or fifteen year-old-dan. Because even if you do have a fifteen-year-old who can do all the stuff a dan can do, s/he's still only fifteen. And getting attacked on the street is a big deal. It may be common in some neighbourhoods -- it happens where I teach school. I want kids I teach to realize that the guy who wants to pick a fight might have a knife or some friends to back him up. I want that ego in check. I want that kid to know s/he's learned a fraction of what's available, and I want them to extricate themselves and walk or run away.

I was talking to a young boy the other day at my public school who had been jumped by a sixteen year old, caught a black eye, and got some of his stuff stolen. If that how it rolls on the street, I really don't want any of my kids thinking they're up for that.



> I can't make exceptions for the fact that he is young, either.  It was a third dan, for crying out loud, the kid should never have been allowed to test for that kind of rank to begin with.



Actually I'm not making exceptions. I'm saying I would prefer kids not get black belts, kiddie or otherwise, because it might seem real to them. I'm saying that given all the rank and technique that has been thrown at this young man in what I presume to be a short time, I think this is a natural result.

I mentioned in some thread or other a visit to a TKD school that I had a bad feeling about. They had a lot of belts. When I say a lot of belts -- everyone's getting their belt back three times. Trade in one yellow for another yellow with a different stripe on it. They were testing everybody every three months. When I stopped by they had twenty kids and youth grading from yellow to brown, and they all looked pretty much the same. They were happy. Sa Bum was happy. Some of the parents looked happy. Some of them looked a little bored coming back every three months and seeing the same thing over and over again.



> the only justice that could be done here is to take the belt back and give the kid a yellow.  there is just no two ways around it.  This was a disservice in the extreme, and that instructor ought to be ashamed of himself.



Presumably his teacher is not going to take it back. I suspect that this is how the teacher teaches. Maybe this kid is his great hope. And I find this all very sad.


----------



## Laurentkd

Twin Fist said:


> agree with Celtic tiger
> 
> other than teaching crescent kicks at white belt, and having required breaking at white, there is nothing about the web site that screams "McDojo"


 

Why do you think that having a required break at white screams mcdojo? Just about anyone can break a one inch pine board with a hammer fist after a few minutes of instruction.  I actulaly tend to think schools that _don't_ require breaking for their promotion are more apt to be mcdojos.


----------



## Twin Fist

because breaking IS a parlor trick, and it is easy to say "see, little Johnny really IS learning something, he broke a board!!" even when he cant do a kick correctly......

I dislike the use of tricks


----------



## Tez3

I must admit the point of breaking pieces of wood rather eludes me, especially when they are specially prepared to break. I would be impressed though if someone picked up a log or lump of wood straight off the ground and broke it.
I don't mean to disrespect those who do breaking, it's just I find little point in it. I expect it's because we test our punches and kicks out on people lol! :ultracool


----------



## Gordon Nore

We often say on these threads that 'boards and bricks don't hit back.' True enough, but we hit all kinds of things in MA that don't hit back: targets, bags, and shields. Breaking, to me, is OK once in a while, but you don't let someone break if they're not using proper technique in the first place. If they are using good technique, breaking is a good way for the student to see what she/he has accomplished. As you practise more, over the years, it's fun to see where that has taken you as far as breaking.

Then it's back to push-ups and drills.

If a teacher doesn't use breaking, that's fine. If a teacher does, it's not automatically McDojo. I had to break on my BB test, but it was a far easier break than I've done before, and I certainly wasn't going to fail if I was unsuccessful. I asked why we broke at all for dan, since it wasn't a big part of our training -- we might break some boards once a year or so for fun -- and was told it was simply something my teacher's teacher had done, so they kept it up.

I would say, if you're going to teach it, don't build it up to be the be-all-end-all. Explain that you're simply applying effective technique to a vulnerable spot on the board that makes it pop. Most people can break one quite easily, multiple board breaking takes more skill and practice.


----------



## Tez3

While I don't personally think there's a point in breaking wood etc I don't think it's something you can judge a school by in respect of whether it's genuine or not. It's a training aid to some, it's not to others, it's no indicator of the standard of training.
We have the NHS so it's cheaper to break people lol!


----------



## Gordon Nore

Tez3 said:


> While I don't personally think there's a point in breaking wood etc I don't think it's something you can judge a school by in respect of whether it's genuine or not. It's a training aid to some, it's not to others, it's no indicator of the standard of training.
> We have the NHS so it's cheaper to break people lol!



Agreed. It not such a big deal. Unless the goal is competitive breaking, which is something I'm not into. That said, when we do get the odd breaking class, I'm just an overgrown kid.


----------



## Windsinger

Laurentkd said:


> Just about anyone can break a one inch pine board with a hammer fist after a few minutes of instruction.


This brought something to mind about my first failed attempt to learn TKD.

Back around 1992-93, I took TKD for about 3 months at a school across from where I worked (Jong Kim School, at the time. Now I think it's an Ed Parker's school, iirc.). Because I joined within days of the school opening, all 15 students were white belts. Our first testing day, about 2 months after everything started, one of our requirements was to break a brick. If we couldn't break one brick, no advancement to yellow belt (no mid-level stripes at this school).

I never thought about that before, really.


----------



## Gordon Nore

Windsinger said:


> This brought something to mind about my first failed attempt to learn TKD.
> 
> Back around 1992-93, I took TKD for about 3 months at a school across from where I worked (Jong Kim School, at the time. Now I think it's an Ed Parker's school, iirc.). Because I joined within days of the school opening, all 15 students were white belts. Our first testing day, about 2 months after everything started, one of our requirements was to break a brick. If we couldn't break one brick, no advancement to yellow belt (no mid-level stripes at this school).
> 
> I never thought about that before, really.



A brick?!? after two months? 

What was the outcome?


----------



## Windsinger

Gordon Nore said:


> A brick?!? after two months?
> 
> What was the outcome?


Actually, a little over 1/2 the class advanced. IIRC, that brought us to 9 yellow belts and 6 white belts. Shortly after that, I quit the school. Not because of anything at the school, itself, but because my work schedule simply wasn't allowing for it. I wish I'd been as smart then as I am now. My work schedule kept me from class for four months this time, and I'm still in it. And I think, barring serious injury, I'm in it for the long haul this time.


----------



## Gordon Nore

Windsinger said:


> Actually, a little over 1/2 the class advanced. IIRC, that brought us to 9 yellow belts and 6 white belts. Shortly after that, I quit the school. Not because of anything at the school, itself, but because my work schedule simply wasn't allowing for it. I wish I'd been as smart then as I am now. My work schedule kept me from class for four months this time, and I'm still in it. And I think, barring serious injury, I'm in it for the long haul this time.



I'm still stuck on this.



Gordon Nore said:


> A brick?!? after two months?
> What was the outcome?



I can't see this being an impediment to the first promotion, nor can I see it as a training priority in the first two months. It also seems just a wee bit dangerous to me, but then again, I've never busted a brick.


----------



## Twin Fist

gordon, 
I got plenty of breaking experience

requiring a BRICK break at white belt is beyond un-needed. it is recklessly dangerous, IMO


----------



## Gordon Nore

Twin Fist said:


> gordon,
> I got plenty of breaking experience



I've busted some wood in my time, but never a brick, so I confess some ignorance. I know my teachers have broken bricks, but they've never encouraged us to.



> requiring a BRICK break at white belt is beyond un-needed. it is recklessly dangerous, IMO



Certainly seems that way to me. I didn't get to break anything until after a year, and it was a single board. Hitting that board and not breaking it happens, and it's on the painful side. Hands get conditioned over time -- I don't see any way around this.


----------



## garrisons2

Personally I believe that there is value to breaking, even if our boards practically fall apart by themselves,   the value is in accuracy and focus,  you can miss it


----------



## terrylamar

garrisons2 said:


> Personally I believe that there is value to breaking, even if our boards practically fall apart by themselves, the value is in accuracy and focus, you can miss it


 
I think the true value is in building confidence and a sense of accomplishment.  

To lower belt who have no experience breaking boards, multiple boards, bricks, cement and other items are scared to death of breaking.

The teacher will coach them, build their confidence, although they, truely, won't believe until they complete the break themselves.

The look on their faces is priceless.

Their confidence in themselves is increased.

Your status as a teacher in their eyes is increased.

Their dedication to the Art they are studying and you are teaching will be increased.

Breaking, when done properly, does have a place in promotion test.


----------



## Tez3

terrylamar said:


> I think the true value is in building confidence and a sense of accomplishment.
> 
> To lower belt who have no experience breaking boards, multiple boards, bricks, cement and other items are scared to death of breaking.
> 
> The teacher will coach them, build their confidence, although they, truely, won't believe until they complete the break themselves.
> 
> The look on their faces is priceless.
> 
> Their confidence in themselves is increased.
> 
> Your status as a teacher in their eyes is increased.
> 
> Their dedication to the Art they are studying and you are teaching will be increased.
> 
> Breaking, when done properly, does have a place in promotion test.


 

But this doesn't help if the school itself is a McDojo does it? It doesn't help quite honestly if it's not! A good instructor is a good instructor and can do all those things for his students without breaking boards. 
What we were discussing is how to tell a McDojo from a good school, the breaking part is of little help in that exercise.
My instructor and I can break things other than bodies, we did a demo a while back and he broke 200 roof tiles in 20 seconds, I don't know if you know what I mean but they are quite thick when laid in piles of ten. He showed me how to do it with a couple which frankly was quite easy, didn't do anything for my confidence or self esteem just made me laugh. It is however a good crowd pleaser with non martial artists and raised money for charity which was the aim.


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## Sylo

Tez3 said:


> But this doesn't help if the school itself is a McDojo does it? It doesn't help quite honestly if it's not! A good instructor is a good instructor and can do all those things for his students without breaking boards.
> What we were discussing is how to tell a McDojo from a good school, the breaking part is of little help in that exercise.
> My instructor and I can break things other than bodies, we did a demo a while back and he broke 200 roof tiles in 20 seconds, I don't know if you know what I mean but they are quite thick when laid in piles of ten. He showed me how to do it with a couple which frankly was quite easy, didn't do anything for my confidence or self esteem just made me laugh. It is however a good crowd pleaser with non martial artists and raised money for charity which was the aim.


 

Breaking for me has always meant something more than just a laugh.. for me. 

Some things might be easy to break just by non chalantly bashing it, but There are some challenges in there that directly relate to my training. It give some of the mysticism of the art back.. because every jo blow on the street corner cannot break 4 concrete blocks on a whim. It helps me focus power, quickness, accuracy, range. Sure I can kick a bag.. or whatever to do those things.. but when your able to "see" the damage an attack does. It gives you at least some sort of guidline as to how effective the technique would be in combat. If I can break a board with a ridgehand.. imagine the damage to the human body.

Board breaking does not make/not make a Mcdojo.

Spotting a Mcdojo is easy for me.

1. if they have more than 10 belts.. and some of those belts are pink, camo, red white and blue.. etc.

2. if they make you pay for everything.. uniform, belts, sparring gear, boxing gloves, everything. They require it even, if they have some in house for people to use.

3. If everyone is black belt. especially kids 5-10 years old. 

4. Foam demo weapons. More focus on demo's than actual self defense.

5. Extremely High prices compared to other dojos.

theres more.. but some things can go either way.


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## terrylamar

Tez3 said:


> But this doesn't help if the school itself is a McDojo does it?


 
Sure it would. Even "a McDojo" can do some things right.



> It doesn't help quite honestly if it's not!


 
I think it does have value. If you don't, don't break.



> A good instructor is a good instructor and can do all those things for his students without breaking boards.


 
A good instructor can do many things or omit many things and still be a good instructor. He doesn't have to be able to be able to do any of these things himself, just be able to teach someone else to do it. Look at world class gymnastics. Those coaches cannot get up on the uneven bars and do any of the things the girls can, but they sure can teach. Being able to do them himself does go to his credibiltiy. Breaking boards is only one aspect of it.



> What we were discussing is how to tell a McDojo from a good school, the breaking part is of little help in that exercise.


 
Breaking was brought up, I merely commented on it.



> My instructor and I can break things other than bodies, we did a demo a while back and he broke 200 roof tiles in 20 seconds, I don't know if you know what I mean but they are quite thick when laid in piles of ten. He showed me how to do it with a couple which frankly was quite easy, didn't do anything for my confidence or self esteem just made me laugh. It is however a good crowd pleaser with non martial artists and raised money for charity which was the aim.


 
Many things in the Martial Arts look difficult, until you are shown how to do them. I would guess, until you were shown how, you would not have attempted this break on your own. Now you are confident you can do it, laughing all the way.


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## Tez3

terrylamar said:


> Sure it would. Even "a McDojo" can do some things right.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it does have value. If you don't, don't break.
> 
> 
> 
> A good instructor can do many things or omit many things and still be a good instructor. He doesn't have to be able to be able to do any of these things himself, just be able to teach someone else to do it. Look at world class gymnastics. Those coaches cannot get up on the uneven bars and do any of the things the girls can, but they sure can teach. Being able to do them himself does go to his credibiltiy. Breaking boards is only one aspect of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Breaking was brought up, I merely commented on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Many things in the Martial Arts look difficult, until you are shown how to do them. I would guess, until you were shown how, you would not have attempted this break on your own. Now you are confident you can do it, laughing all the way.


 
Damn right I would have done it on my own, I'm not a bloody sheep! it's not rocket science is it?

What a fuss over a few bits of old board lol! All I said was it wasn't for me, I wasn't condemning it for anyone else, go break a forest if thats your wont, it's not mine but it takes all sorts.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Tetsujin said:


> This is a McDojo.


I finally had time to watch this one at home (like Flying Crane, I cannot view Youtube at work).   Two words: Oh... my.

I cannot comment on whether or not he did all of the correct movements in the correct sequence of the form because I am not familiar with the songham forms (God, I hope and pray that that isn't what it's supposed to look like).  But I can say this:

Both in sparring and in the form, he never got full extension from any of his kicks and his kicks had zero snap to them.  No technique was executed with any power at all.  He did move fairly smoothly, both in sparring and in performing the form, and if he walked into my class and moved like that, I'd feel that I had a good foundation to work with.  Perhaps too, he is very mature and conducts himself very well (we've all acknowledged that being a blackbelt involves a level of maturation and leadership).  I don't know, but I do know that his basics need a lot of work.  He has all the right moves; just no power or extension.  And something else that I felt was missing: passion and energy.  

Is this kid blackbelt material?  Not yet, in my opinion, and certainly not 3rd degree.  In his defense, he didn't make the video himself, though whoever did did a very good job of making it and probably does not know what they're looking at.  Did the maker of the video do this young man any favors?  Not if he or she is the one who posted it to Youtube.

I sincerly hope that this young man moves on to a school that can take what he has and help him build it into a solid foundation upon which to build.

As for the school, I can only shake my head in disappointment.  

Daniel


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## terryl965

This is what alot of the ATA schools are in my area, so each there own. I know they make tons of money and give out BB like it is tap water.


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## BrandonLucas

It seems to be the trend with ATA schools...I can't say that for all the schools, so I'm not making a blanket statement about ATA in general...but all of the ATA schools that I've personally seen or had experience with have had the McDojo mentality.

There was a demo not too far from the town I live in that ATA was participating in...they did a breaking demo, but the "boards" were actually pieces of styrofoam (sp) painted to look like boards.

I've heard others who attended ATA schools say that they got quality insruction, and their technique was admittedly pretty solid...but the schools that they attended were not close enough to visit.

Now, I'm not trying to offend anyone on this board who attends an ATA dojang, believe me, but I've stated this before...ATA schools are the only TKD schools that I've witnessed in my area that are blatent TKD McDojangs.  Their classes pretty much look exactly like that video.

I agree, though, that the kid has a solid foundation to work with.  Blackbelt material?  No.  But he's certainly not without talent.


----------



## Dao

OMG!!!!!!!!!!  My first school was like that (Hapkido/taekwondo) but it wasn't bad as that.  I got a blue belt when I certainly didn't even earn it.  In fact I knew I wasn't ready for the blue belt test but I was told I should take the test.  That's when my father decided that I should quit because it was getting closer to $400 mark for a test.  This was a long time and that was a lot of money for a test.  
I have been to 5 or 6 different schools, most cases because I had to move.  It is very difficult to find a good school!


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## Daniel Sullivan

Dao said:


> That's when my father decided that I should quit because it was getting closer to $400 mark for a test. This was a long time and that was a lot of money for a test.


It is not uncommon to see a black belt test cost this much, but a blue belt test??  Now that is pretty out there!

Daniel


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## Sylo

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It is not uncommon to see a black belt test cost this much, but a blue belt test?? Now that is pretty out there!
> 
> Daniel


 

wow..

I paid 30 bucks this past saturday to test for red.
our monthly rates are 36 a month, and there are classes on Mon. Wed. Thursday, Friday and Saturday. 3 classes each night, except on friday and sat. and your free to go as much as you like, min. required is 2 a week.

I don't think there is cheaper, at least not where I live.


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## KELLYG

O.K. 
There have been lots of talk about McDojo's.. To be frank I thought that this line of discussion was a bit overblown.  I mean that most of us do MA because we like to not because we are protecting life and limb every day using MA. Then I started looking at people preforming poomse on utube.. 
WOW!!!!  What an eye opener. I was astounded at the lack of discipline control and general technique that was show by people that were competing for tournament GRAND MASTERS.  Out of about 20 to 30 video's I watched most of the performers were preforming at a belt level significantly below their current rank (or what my opinion what each rank is to look like)  it was appalling. 
I get it now thanks!


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## AMP-RYU

That video is pure shameful.....that is a pure disgrace.


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## Daniel Sullivan

YounWhaMann said:


> That video is pure shameful.....that is a pure disgrace.


It aint doin him or the school or the ATA any favors being up on Youtube, that's for sure!

In any case, I am curious as to what it was about the school who's link you posted in your op that made it the definition of a McDojo.  These were my observations in a previous post:



Daniel Sullivan said:


> How is this hilarious? What is it about their masters and black belt that makes them a Mcdojo? The one picture of a master doing any technique was Linda Roth executing a front kick, and it looked quite good. Some of them have been featured on the cover of MA trade publications; not that this makes them any better, but it certainly is an accomplishment. What is it about the testing requirements that you feel is amiss? Please clarify your statement.
> 
> Frankly, I didn't see anything that would turn me off to this school just perusing the website. You were already asked in the very first response what your problem with this school was, but you've yet to respond on this thread at all.
> 
> Clarify your reasons for even starting this thread. If you cannot, then you shouldn't have started it in the first place, as all you're doing is degrading another school with no specific reason as to why.


Thank you,

Daniel


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## CDKJudoka

I wonder if the BB  in that video is an actual 3rd dan or not. Most schools that I know of here in LI, for the most part, do issue BBs to kids (youngest in my dojang being 13 years old) but they are "junior" black belts. Which translates into a BB Candidate when they turn 16, unless they have successfully tested at an adult BB level. We have 2 2nd Dans that are under 16 at our dojang, and they are truly at a 2nd Dan level. Both have been training since they were 4 or 5 years old, and doing it consistently.


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## Daniel Sullivan

DarkPhoenix said:


> I wonder if the BB in that video is an actual 3rd dan or not. Most schools that I know of here in LI, for the most part, do issue BBs to kids (youngest in my dojang being 13 years old) but they are "junior" black belts. Which translates into a BB Candidate when they turn 16, unless they have successfully tested at an adult BB level. We have 2 2nd Dans that are under 16 at our dojang, and they are truly at a 2nd Dan level. Both have been training since they were 4 or 5 years old, and doing it consistently.


Hard to say.  But even a junior blackbelt should have looked better than that.  And that kid was not a little child; he looked to be at least fourteen.

The system you mention sounds like the Kukkiwon's poom/dan system; a practitioner under the age of either fifteen or sixteen (don't remember off hand which) will attain the rank of first through fourth _poom_.  Poom ranks become the equivalent dan rank when the paperwork is submitted by a fourth dan or higher KKW instructor.  

Daniel


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## IcemanSK

I agree with Daniel. Being young doesn't mean that they inherantly have bad technique. Sadly, this child is allowed to get away with no trying & "phoning in" his techniques & its been passible. At he Hanmadang in Anaheim this year, I saw many poom belts from Korea & the US that had outstanding technique & discipline. These kids will make excellent Dans when they are older.

The kid in this video would need to unlearn a lot of bad habits were he to move to another school.


----------



## BrandonLucas

DarkPhoenix said:


> I wonder if the BB in that video is an actual 3rd dan or not. Most schools that I know of here in LI, for the most part, do issue BBs to kids (youngest in my dojang being 13 years old) but they are "junior" black belts. Which translates into a BB Candidate when they turn 16, unless they have successfully tested at an adult BB level. We have 2 2nd Dans that are under 16 at our dojang, and they are truly at a 2nd Dan level. Both have been training since they were 4 or 5 years old, and doing it consistently.


 
The problem is that if you watch the video, the kid is not 3rd dan material, jr BB or not...and I'm not 100% sure on this one, but I've never heard of a jr BB that was able to earn a dan at all...they usually top out at the title of jr BB, correct?

But, on topic, the kid isn't impressive at all.  Even if you take into consideration that he's a kid, he just looks like he's going through the motions.  He doesn't appear to understand the application of any of the techniques...only that his instructor has showed him where to place his hands and feet, and he just puts them there.

It's like watching a small kid play "The Sky Is Crying" by Stevie Ray Vaughn that has learned the song from a tab sheet...there probably isn't any feeling in it at all, he's just going through the notes that are on the page.

But, like I've said before, it doesn't mean that the kid isn't on the way to earning a blackbelt...I just don't think he's at a blackbelt level for any age.


----------



## Flying Crane

BrandonLucas said:


> But, on topic, the kid isn't impressive at all. Even if you take into consideration that he's a kid, he just looks like he's going through the motions. *He doesn't appear to understand the application of any of the techniques...only that his instructor has showed him where to place his hands and feet, and he just puts them there*.


 
you nailed it with this.  I've been trying to figure out how to say it, and this is perfect.


----------



## IcemanSK

Flying Crane said:


> you nailed it with this. I've been trying to figure out how to say it, and this is perfect.


 

Agreed. It's as if he learned a dance for the 7th grade play & does it because he "has to." No consciousness of what he'd doing or even why. Heck, not even any passion for doing it.

I hate to beat the dead horse on this, but this kid's instructor is doing him no favors.


----------



## Flying Crane

IcemanSK said:


> Agreed. *It's as if he learned a dance for the 7th grade play & does it because he "has to." No consciousness of what he'd doing or even why*. Heck, not even any passion for doing it.


 
Another good statement here, and this leads me to another topic, a bit off topic but I thought I'd throw it out there: I personally enjoy forms practice.  I know that a lot of people do not, and their reasons are many.  

However, I wonder if for at least some of those who do not, perhaps their understanding of the very concept of forms is in line with the above statement.  Maybe that is why they don't like forms, and don't see any benefit in their practice.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

BrandonLucas said:


> But, on topic, the kid isn't impressive at all. Even if you take into consideration that he's a kid, he just looks like he's going through the motions. He doesn't appear to understand the application of any of the techniques...only that his instructor has showed him where to place his hands and feet, and he just puts them there.


That, of course assumes that the instructor understood any of the application in the first place.  If he never learned, simply going through the motions like this kid, then he cannot teach what he has not learned.

Daniel


----------



## Flying Crane

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That, of course assumes that the instructor understood any of the application in the first place. If he never learned, simply going through the motions like this kid, then he cannot teach what he has not learned.
> 
> Daniel


 
Also true.  This begs the question: how deep does the rot go?

It's interesting to consider: at some point someone who had good training, must have made a decision to be satisfied with giving his own students poor training.  I wonder who is responsible for that?


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That, of course assumes that the instructor understood any of the application in the first place.  If he never learned, simply going through the motions like this kid, then he cannot teach what he has not learned.
> 
> Daniel




I know a bit about the Songahm system as my niece practices it.  They do not have a poom belt.  A dan rank is a dan rank.  Obviously in a well run dojo, the children know their place and would never dream of correcting an adult unless they have been specifically asked to teach or help out.

The Songahm forms are pretty straight forward.  They are athletically challenging to perform compared to Chang Hon or Palgwe or Tae Geuk, but by and large they weren't designed to have any "hidden" applications.  What you see is what you get.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Flying Crane said:


> Also true. This begs the question: how deep does the rot go?
> 
> It's interesting to consider: at some point someone who had good training, must have made a decision to be satisfied with giving his own students poor training. I wonder who is responsible for that?


This is one of the problems with large class sizes.  Here's a possible progression:

*1985:* A decent school with a well thought of master just exploded with the ninja craze (I actually remember the ninja craze), the Karate Kid has just premiered, and there are now more students than adequate personnel level to effectively teach them.

*Two years pass:* Students were hurried on to black belt and 'rewarded' with teaching responsibility that they were not adequately prepared for.  The master never has the time to go through with his new assistant instructors and get them up to speed on their technique.  

*One year passes:* The young BB's have learned their first dan form and have been teaching for a year.  They hit second dan.  Now they get to teach more advanced students to help them get to BB level.  

*Two more years pass*: The young BB's have now learned their second dan form and perhaps a weapon form or two were added for demo purposes.  They've now been teaching on some level for three years.  Its time for third dan.

*Three more years pass*: Its been six years since they received their beautiful gold stitched blackbelt with one gold stripe. The now no-longer-young BB's have gotten to a point where some have quit, leaving the dedicated few.  The master is very pleased with these two or three remaining students.  Such students are loyal and show rigor.  They have stayed the course and been teaching now for six years.  Several classes of black belts have been promoted up through these student's classes, occasional appearances by the master, who only teaches the black belt class now: new forms and weapon forms, and all sorts of demonstrations and promotions.  Now, the dojo has a blackbelt club, and beyond that, a masters club, which such stalwart students as these two or three certainly deserve to be in.  These students are now considered part of the staff and their pictures adorn the walls of the lobby.  They're teaching several classes a week, including assisting with the blackbelt class.  They know their third dan form and three weapon forms.  How can anyone not promote such fine folks to fourth dan?

*Six months later:* These fourth dan students are now able to sign blackbelt certificates.  The master is not young and the school has really worn him out.  One of his stalwarts is now pretty much running the day to day while the master is spending more and more time away.  He is a grandmaster, so he maintains a comfortable distance between himself and the colored belt students.  About this time, one of his stalwarts approaches him with a bold new initiative: a new location!  She loves teaching and wants to open up her own school.  She has the rank and by KKW rules, she can now sign the dan certs.  The new school will be her own, but the old master will be her grandmaster and receive a royalty.  The new school will carry the name of the original.  The master likes this idea.  Expansion begins.

*1995:* The Old Master Martial Arts II has opened up and business is booming.  The location is perfect; close enough to the old school that he won't have to drive too far to visit, but far enough away that it won't canibalize the old school's student body.  Because she is doing so well, she has the same problem that her old master had: no personnel and tons of students.  She needs black belts!

*Two years later:*  The new school finally graduates its first class of blackbelts, and both the old master and his young protege are pleased.  The old master is so pleased, in fact that he approaches his most loyal student, one of the two or three stalwarts, about taking on the Old Master I dojang full time.  Old master himself is ready to run his operation from afar.  His third stalwart has just opened up Old Master III.  Most loyal stalwart bows deeply, accepting this great honor.

*2000:*  The new milenium is upon us and in a special ceremony, Old master bestows the fifth dan upon his three stalwarts.  His loyal man at Old Master I really has it well in hand, Old Master II has stayed solid and Old Master III is booming.  With the rank of master, each of these young masters now has fifteen years of taekwondo experience!  Old master passes on the torch and ties their newly stitched black belts with five stripes onto their waist.  Special "Master Young" doboks, I, II, and III are ordered in for the three.  Also at this ceremony, several of the bb's brought up by the young masters are now testing for third dan.  Old master has inspected them here and there and been present for their tests, but nothing more.  A wonderful reception is had afterward, compete with speaches.  Old Master has a surprise too: his teacher, Very Old Master is in town and speaks for the assembled classes of all three schools about the importance of tradition and lineage.  Very Old Master then surprises everyone by presenting Old Master with his ninth dan!  

The reception comes to a close and Young Master I, II, and III wave as Old Master rides off into the sunset.  The torch has been passed.  They're now the masters.

*And that:* is how you get ten, fifteen, and twenty year practitioners who don't know their art well enough to transmit it.  Nobody in that story was greedy or particularly money hungry.  Old Master isn't particularly wealthy, but he does alright.  He has a strong love of the martial arts, as do his students.  Why did he fail to teach them the subtleties of the art?  Very simple: life got in the way.  The reality of business got in the way.  Too much, too fast.  

No decision to dumb down the curriculum was ever made.  Old master simply assumes that his young masters have "got it" and that their students are "getting it" from them.  This is how I believe the rot got so deep.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> I know a bit about the Songahm system as my niece practices it. They do not have a poom belt. A dan rank is a dan rank. Obviously in a well run dojo, the children know their place and would never dream of correcting an adult unless they have been specifically asked to teach or help out.
> 
> The Songahm forms are pretty straight forward. They are athletically challenging to perform compared to Chang Hon or Palgwe or Tae Geuk, but by and large they weren't designed to have any "hidden" applications. What you see is what you get.


Yes, but it shouldn't be a secret that a punch is supposed to be against an opponent and that blocks are supposed to be strong enough to deflect an attack.  Weak kicks should be obviously ineffective.  Do the songham forms not have even a rudimentary boon hae?

Daniel


----------



## Flying Crane

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This is one of the problems with large class sizes. Here's a possible progression:
> 
> *1985:* A decent school with a well thought of master just exploded with the ninja craze (I actually remember the ninja craze), the Karate Kid has just premiered, and there are now *more students than adequate personnel level to effectively teach them*.


 
I think we can stop right here.  There is the root of the problem.  Should have turned some students away.  never should have gone beyond this.


----------



## CDKJudoka

Now that sounds like every major Dojo/Dojang in the US.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Flying Crane said:


> I think we can stop right here. There is the root of the problem. Should have turned some students away. never should have gone beyond this.


And in my long time line, I never even addressed the added features and benefits of after school programs and summer camp, both with pickup and drop off, which so many large schools offer.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, but it shouldn't be a secret that a punch is supposed to be against an opponent and that blocks are supposed to be strong enough to deflect an attack.  Weak kicks should be obviously ineffective.  Do the songham forms not have even a rudimentary boon hae?
> 
> Daniel




The application is the obvious one.  A block is a block, a punch is a punch.  No throws or locks implied in the movements as is the case with karate forms.  I don't know that this is necessarily an indictment of the Songahm system though since the TKD school that teaches boon hae is a real rarity.  TKD is what it is.  I'm very glad there seems to be a real grassroots attempt to add some applications work back into TKD.  This is one of the reasons I participate on this board.

Back to the weakness of the boy's form in the video.... Of course the ATA doesn't do itself any favors with things like "block" teaching.  In schools that use the method, you could literally have the white belts learning the yellow belt form first without having learned the white belt or orange belt pattern.  The idea is to make it easier for one instructor to teach a large number of students at once without having to adapt (too much) to the level of the students.  I don't know if this boy was brought up under block training or not, but as we all agree, his technique and understanding just isn't up to a credible standard for a black belt, much less a 3rd dan.

Black belt promotions do seem easy to come by in the ATA and it's close cousin, the ITA.  (Sorry, I know there's some ITA people participating on MT, no insult is intended by this observation.  It's just the truth as I see it.)  The local ITA school in my town has a head instructor 5th dan who can't possibly be older than 30.  Perhaps he has been training for a long time, but IMO 5th dan is a full, verging on master instructor level.  It takes some personal maturity to become an excellent teacher, and yes that does that seasoning.  

And of course we know the ATA awards a lot of black belts to children.  Have they "earned" them?  Sometimes, and sometimes not.  My niece for example has good technique and knows the material inside and out.  Could she defend herself against an adult attacker intent on harming her?  Not on her life!  Such is the difference between her school and mine.  I do not promote anyone under 16 to black belt (in fact I rarely take juvenile students and my youngest black belt student is 24) because I believe a dan rank should indicate some level of fighting ability.  You don't get a belt in my class just for attendence or good behavior or for having 'awesome attitude'.  I am not bragging, just adding my thoughts to this discussion. 

I don't have a commercial school because of my feelings about martial arts and how they should be practiced.  If I wanted or needed to make money from my school, I obviously could NOT run things in the same fashion as I currently do.  I accept this reality.  I don't believe you can have your cake and eat it too in this respect.


----------



## terryl965

I believe you can have the cake and eat it to, just relize that they are junior BB and at the time of 15 and then they start to learn adult material and retest for an adult BB. With this in mind you can have both and make money from it. I tend to be a believer in one staying within the school for twenty years. My average students stay with me for 16 years so if done right it can work.


----------



## davedaylight

As far as the OP I don't really see anything that jumps out to me as saying that those schools are McDojo's. OP, if you could please explain what you saw on their site, cause all I see is what looks like a successful martial arts school (although I was a bit surprised at the extent of their Pro Shop). Their schools were mostly on the other side of St. Louis so I never checked out their school when I was looking for a martial arts school last year. I'd say from looking at that website that their school is different than mine, probably a different focus than mine (like more sports oriented than self defense), but nothing that makes me believe that they don't teach good martial arts.

I saw that video posted in another thread before, it was shocking.

For me personally, I can't really say what would make a "McDojo", all I can say are the things that I look out for when I've checked out different martial arts schools.

1. Will they let me try out a class for free before I decide whether I want to join. (for me that's a big one, I understand I'll probably have to sign a liability waiver--but if the school has good training and a good system then they should happily let someone check it out to see if it's for them)

2. Contracts, I just don't like them--I know a lot of good schools out there use them, but I just don't like them and try to avoid them if I can. For example, when I did martial arts back in my teens, I had to sign a contract for the school that I was taking classes at--and since I wasn't 18 yet I had to get my parents to sign. Due to certain issues that arose over the following 10 months I no longer felt like training and advised my instructor of that--they brought up the contract and said that I had to pay for 2 more months of classes, and that if I didn't they would have to go after my parents for the money. 

3. Are they pushy, and what I mean by that are they trying to sell you something that's not needed. One of the schools my dad & I checked out last year the instructor talked to us before one of his classes, and before we even had a chance to check out the school was trying to get us to sign a contract. He didn't offer for us to take a class before deciding, or ask us to watch a class--seemed like all he wanted was our money. I'm not against your instructor encouraging you to buy something, but how they go about it says a lot. My instructor here has lately been encouraging everyone to get their own set of sparring equipment, but they haven't required everyone to get it. We do have a limited amount of "community gear", but even though we clean it after each time it's used it's tons better to have your own.

4. How is the technique? I look at the instructor when he shows a technique--if it's sloppy, run away. I don't really pay too much attention to a white belt or the next belt or maybe even two up, but the blue belts (the middle ranks) and up to the ranks right below black--those are the ones I pay the most attention to. The lower ranks are still learning the basics: balance, foot position, correct chambering--if their's looks good it's probably because they're quick learner or have taken martial arts before. But if their technique looks sloppy and they're a mid to high rank, then something is not getting trained right in that school. And if you've got some experience you can often tell the difference between someone who's struggling with a new kick and someone who is just flopping his foot out into the air--heck my dad could tell and he hadn't had any martial arts training.

5. Demeanor & character. To me martial arts isn't just about training the body, but the mind and the spirit also. You've got to have strength of character as a martial artist or you may become more of a bully than a martial artist. So whenever I check out a school I look to see how the instructor treats their students and how the students treat the instructor and each other.


----------



## BrandonLucas

The thing to me about having your cake and eating it too is that you can certainly eat the cake, but not the whole thing.

There are going to have to be some sacrifices made in terms of what you *want* and what you *need* to do in order to run a successful school.  While you feel that a Jr. BB rank is not a valid rank, it could be a necessary evil in order to have enough students to run the school.

To me, the way sacrifices are justified is that they are explained outright to the public...i.e. telling little Johnny's parents that since he's 14 and knows the cirriculum well and can perform the techniques flawlessly, he has earned the right to be a Jr. BB, which does not mean that he's a full 1st dan BB, rather it's like a probationary status until he reaches 16.

To go the other way and become a total belt factory is the way of the McDojo, which is what you want to steer clear of.  There is a balance that can be acheived, but it all depends on what you're willing to sacrifice to the demand of the public.  Not enough sacrifice means that your school may not run, and too much sacrifice means that you're in danger of becoming a McDojo.

Just like the art that you're teaching, there is a balance in the marketing of it to the public.  To find the balance in either one is to be truly successful.


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## dancingalone

terryl965 said:


> I believe you can have the cake and eat it to, just relize that they are junior BB and at the time of 15 and then they start to learn adult material and retest for an adult BB. With this in mind you can have both and make money from it. I tend to be a believer in one staying within the school for twenty years. My average students stay with me for 16 years so if done right it can work.




I just don't believe it can be done with my curriculum.  For me to award someone a black belt goes beyond a checklist of forms and kicks and punches for someone to perform.  That's just the shell of the martial art.  I'm looking for an understanding of balance, rooting, acceleration, and structure:  key facets that allow you to master any type of martial art or to adapt what you learn from me into any situation.  And you have to be able to explain it.  Why did this throw work?  Why is it that you can punch harder than me even though I am bigger and stronger?

These are mental concepts that I'm convinced children just don't have the maturity to grasp much less be able to articulate.  I'm not interested in someone parroting back to me my lesson plans.  I want them to understand the concepts that will serve them anywhere.  One of my black belts should be able to walk into any dojo and project a palpable presence when they are on the mat.  Sure they might not know whatever technique is being worked, but they should be able to pick it up relatively quickly because bio-mechanically they are efficient and sound to begin with.


----------



## dancingalone

BrandonLucas said:


> The thing to me about having your cake and eating it too is that you can certainly eat the cake, but not the whole thing.
> 
> There are going to have to be some sacrifices made in terms of what you *want* and what you *need* to do in order to run a successful school.  While you feel that a Jr. BB rank is not a valid rank, it could be a necessary evil in order to have enough students to run the school.
> 
> To me, the way sacrifices are justified is that they are explained outright to the public...i.e. telling little Johnny's parents that since he's 14 and knows the cirriculum well and can perform the techniques flawlessly, he has earned the right to be a Jr. BB, which does not mean that he's a full 1st dan BB, rather it's like a probationary status until he reaches 16.
> 
> To go the other way and become a total belt factory is the way of the McDojo, which is what you want to steer clear of.  There is a balance that can be acheived, but it all depends on what you're willing to sacrifice to the demand of the public.  Not enough sacrifice means that your school may not run, and too much sacrifice means that you're in danger of becoming a McDojo.
> 
> Just like the art that you're teaching, there is a balance in the marketing of it to the public.  To find the balance in either one is to be truly successful.



Good thoughts.  For me, what you've described is described above is one justifying awarding a dan to a child when properly a child should never be given one in the first place.  I understand I am in the minority on this, but I will never award such a thing as a child's black belt or a probationary black belt.  It's not a sticker given for attendence.  In my book you're either a dan rank or not.  What's wrong with wearing a brown belt anyway?


----------



## terryl965

dancingalone said:


> I just don't believe it can be done with my curriculum. For me to award someone a black belt goes beyond a checklist of forms and kicks and punches for someone to perform. That's just the shell of the martial art. I'm looking for an understanding of balance, rooting, acceleration, and structure: key facets that allow you to master any type of martial art or to adapt what you learn from me into any situation. And you have to be able to explain it. Why did this throw work? Why is it that you can punch harder than me even though I am bigger and stronger?
> 
> These are mental concepts that I'm convinced children just don't have the maturity to grasp much less be able to articulate. I'm not interested in someone parroting back to me my lesson plans. I want them to understand the concepts that will serve them anywhere. One of my black belts should be able to walk into any dojo and project a palpable presence when they are on the mat. Sure they might not know whatever technique is being worked, but they should be able to pick it up relatively quickly because bio-mechanically they are efficient and sound to begin with.


 
I completely agree with you my curriculum is way beyond kick and punches but for little Johnny who has been with me for 6 years and now is 13 a Junior BB allows him to still grow and relize that when he gets to be 16 he needs to fullfil the adult requirements or he stay a Junior BB until he does. Like some have mention as long as you tell little johnny parents that if they become a BB until they reach 16 and retest he is consider a junior BB. I am sure we are saying the same thing just maybe different wording.


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## BrandonLucas

dancingalone said:


> Good thoughts. For me, what you've described is described above is one justifying awarding a dan to a child when properly a child should never be given one in the first place. I understand I am in the minority on this, but I will never award such a thing as a child's black belt or a probationary black belt. It's not a sticker given for attendence. In my book you're either a dan rank or not. What's wrong with wearing a brown belt anyway?


 
I don't see anything wrong with a brown belt, myself, and I'm quite sure most *serious* martial artists don't, either.

The problem is that unless you can figure out a way to filter out those who are serious and those that aren't, in order for a business to thrive, some sacrifices need to be made.

Not that the whole blackbelt thing is one of them, either...I'm sure there are ways around giving a kid any blackbelt at all and keeping them interested, and I'm sure other schools have been just as successful.  But I'm also willing to bet that they had to sacrifice something else that they wanted to keep in the agenda or out of the cirriculum in order to generate business.  

Each person should decide what they're willing to not budge on when making a business plan, and, if what they plan doesn't work, then they need to make the decision on whether to become flexible on what they do and don't budge on or choose to do something else.


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## Daniel Sullivan

davedaylight said:


> As far as the OP I don't really see anything that jumps out to me as saying that those schools are McDojo's. OP, if you could please explain what you saw on their site, cause all I see is what looks like a successful martial arts school (although I was a bit surprised at the extent of their Pro Shop). Their schools were mostly on the other side of St. Louis so I never checked out their school when I was looking for a martial arts school last year. I'd say from looking at that website that their school is different than mine, probably a different focus than mine (like more sports oriented than self defense), but nothing that makes me believe that they don't teach good martial arts.


 
I asked this very question on page three.  Others asked about it on pages one and two.


Daniel Sullivan said:


> How is this hilarious? What is it about their masters and black belt that makes them a Mcdojo? The one picture of a master doing any technique was Linda Roth executing a front kick, and it looked quite good. Some of them have been featured on the cover of MA trade publications; not that this makes them any better, but it certainly is an accomplishment. What is it about the testing requirements that you feel is amiss? Please clarify your statement.
> 
> Frankly, I didn't see anything that would turn me off to this school just perusing the website. You were already asked in the very first response what your problem with this school was, but you've yet to respond on this thread at all.
> 
> Clarify your reasons for even starting this thread. If you cannot, then you shouldn't have started it in the first place, as all you're doing is degrading another school with no specific reason as to why.


Eight pages in and the OP still hasn't answered this question.

Daniel


----------



## AMP-RYU

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I asked this very question on page three. Others asked about it on pages one and two.
> 
> Eight pages in and the OP still hasn't answered this question.
> 
> Daniel


 
I probably just have a different prospective in the martial arts than this school does....and I appologize if I have offended anyone. I think alot of my reason would be their contracts and quickness to sue someone who feels that martial arts just isnt for them! Also the training that their student recieve is far below the standard and the amount of training their students recieve is below standard...or maybe my association is just above the standard...I dont know. But if you look at their student handbook you'll see what I mean...maybe Im just used to a far superior association! Also I have personally competed against many of their students over the years and it embarasses me to think that they train in the same style as me. I also have had many students over the years come to my school and completely bad mouth this organization after being sued of course about the training their children or selves had recieved and believe me it wasn't pretty. Just check out their student manual and decide if you think they are learning what they should be. http://worldtaekwondo.com/handbook.htm
I'm sure my opinion is different than others but my opinion is exactly that..my opinion! Again Im sorry if I offended anyone.


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## AMP-RYU

Agian I apologize and just thought what I saw was aweful but like I said maybe it is the standard, I should have never posted this thread and wish I hadnt. I just wanted to share how little some schools teach to get to Black Belt in just one year! That is all if contract stating you will recieve a black belt in 12 months is not a mcdojo im sorry and I have learned what to and not to post here Im sorry again.


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## HM2PAC

YounWhaMann wrote:


> Agian I apologize and just thought what I saw was aweful but like I said maybe it is the standard, I should have never posted this thread and wish I hadnt. I just wanted to share how little some schools teach to get to Black Belt in just one year! That is all if contract stating you will recieve a black belt in 12 months is not a mcdojo im sorry and I have learned what to and not to post here Im sorry again.



1st, there is nothing about the site that you posted that says anything about being a BB in 1 year.

2nd, Cut the drama.


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## davedaylight

Sorry, but I don't see anything on their website about being able to get a black belt within 1 yr, I also don't see anything on there about contracts or anything. But honestly the absolute best martial arts school in the world could have the worst website in the world and the worst martial arts school could have the best website. It's marketing and public relations, they're showing what they want us to see--I try to not judge a school based off their website.

I know you live in the same region as them (I recently moved to Phoenix from the St. Louis area) so you'd be more likely to come in contact with people from their school. But we don't know anything other than their website, and it's possible that you found something on their website that I haven't been able to find (I'll admit that I haven't read everything on every page of the site). 

And honestly you can't believe everything you hear, not saying that what you've heard isn't true, but as I'm sure we all have experienced at some point in our lives some people will lie or stretch the truth. Some people when they have a bad experience (which could be nothing worse than a misunderstanding or simple miscommunication) will badmouth the other party to no end with all kinds of stuff that may or may not be true. 

I'm just trying to give my position (and I think a lot of the other posters position), we don't know any of the parties involved--not the school and none of the people that you've met who've had a bad experience, so we are in no place to give any sound judgment on whether or not this school is a "McDojo". Sure it looks like their training is a bit lighter than mine and their focus is a bit different, but that doesn't mean that they're a bad school.


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## Tez3

Ah go on , a wee bit of drama never did anyone any harm!!


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## terryl965

Well here we go again


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## AMP-RYU

Listen im done, in this thread and hope it dies. I just thought it personally looked weak and it is my opinion, im just going to go on in other threads and enjoy myself here. I never thought in my wildest dreams this would become such a huge topic.


----------



## Gordon Nore

bob0812 said:


> Listen im done, in this thread and hope it dies. I just thought it personally looked weak and it is my opinion, im just going to go on in other threads and enjoy myself here. I never thought in my wildest dreams this would become such a huge topic.



bob,

Did you change your name? I don't know that you have to go into witness protection or anything. It's just a thread.


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## sjansen

The problem is that if a school tries to make money it is called a McDojo. Even if the instuctors have the right intentions. In these trying times many people are just not willing to pay for good training without entisement. Instructors have added belts to gain money in promotions, gave promotions that were not deserved and done whatever it takes to stay alive. The problem is that there are just not enough people willing to see the advantages of a good instuctor without paying. My instructor refuses to take my money because he doesn't want to be seen this way. While I admire his ethics, he needs to feed himself and his family and keep the heat on without feeling obligated.

It's a catch 22. Your damed if you do and bankrupt if you don't.


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## AMP-RYU

Gordon Nore said:


> bob,
> 
> Did you change your name? I don't know that you have to go into witness protection or anything. It's just a thread.


 
I changed my name because no matter what I say their are a couple of people on here not saying who that dogg my threads...I just post a thread to get input not chopped down. So I would rather not have one of my students one day find this site and see their instructors geting ripped on. i think i have good points and dont need someone talking smack on me in a public forum. post your thoughts but dont talk smack on the poster, that is my feeling!


----------



## sjansen

bob0812 said:


> I changed my name because no matter what I say their are a couple of people on here not saying who that dogg my threads...I just post a thread to get input not chopped down. So I would rather not have one of my students one day find this site and see their instructors geting ripped on. i think i have good points and dont need someone talking smack on me in a public forum. post your thoughts but dont talk smack on the poster, that is my feeling!


 
Many people find great courage when the have ananimity or distance between you and them. Few have the courage to challenge with there own name and place displayed. The internet like familiarilty breads contempt.


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## Dao

I do not like gossip however I think as a Korean,  this art is part of my culture.  i don't like what I am seeing.  My school was kind of like this, even though I wasn't ready for my blue belt test I was told to take it.  Why?  Because of the large fee to take the test.  I was forced to quit.\
No instructor is forced to teach taekwondo for a living, in fact many work during the day and teach in the evenings and weekends.
If this happened in Korea there would be a lot of angry people and the instructor would have a bad name very quickly.  This is just lack a respect to give black belts so easily.
What we should be doing is recommend the good schools or what you consider as the good school for learning.  You don't have to tell them the reason.  This is the best way, hopefully the bad ones will go away.  You might call this mean and wrong but I don't see like that.  If they want to make money they can charge outrageous monthly class fees.  There is no excuse to give black belt when it's not earned.

Anyways *tournaments will show the good schools from the bad ones.   Just like my first school we hardly won any trophies or any medals, sure there was some medals and trophies in the school but that was mostly to the real top notch students that just luckly trained harder.
*


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## Tez3

I think this subject on this thread has probably run its course now, we tend to be going round in circles like the oozelum bird!
The subject of McDojos is an interesting one though isn't it? We all have various opinions depending on how we ourselves train and who teaches us but I think we are in danger on this thread of it geting too personal. We can either stop the thread or divert it slightly I think towards things we think shouldn't or should happen in a well run club/school (We tend to have clubs here while you seem to have schools) whether or no not the place is run for profit, we should disregard that part and concentrate on whether the training is any good or not. There's plenty of places that aren't run for the money that aren't very good!

My take is that children shouldn't be given blackbelts under the age of at least 16 preferably older. Blackbelts should take longer than a year to reach if the person is new to martial arts. Self defence techniques should always be realistic. Bunkai should always be taught as kata/forms totally pointless without it. Sparring should be as realistic as possible too.


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## jks9199

bob0812 said:


> I changed my name because no matter what I say their are a couple of people on here not saying who that dogg my threads...I just post a thread to get input not chopped down. So I would rather not have one of my students one day find this site and see their instructors geting ripped on. i think i have good points and dont need someone talking smack on me in a public forum. post your thoughts but dont talk smack on the poster, that is my feeling!


If you have a problem with a post or another user, there are several options available.  You can hit the Report to Moderator button (it's a triangular red & white symbol with an exclamation point) at the top right of the post.  The mod team WILL look into the issue.  You can send a PM to anyone on the moderation team (especially the senior mods), or even directly to Bob Hubbard, the board owner.


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## terryl965

Tez3 said:


> I think this subject on this thread has probably run its course now, we tend to be going round in circles like the oozelum bird!
> The subject of McDojos is an interesting one though isn't it? We all have various opinions depending on how we ourselves train and who teaches us but I think we are in danger on this thread of it geting too personal. We can either stop the thread or divert it slightly I think towards things we think shouldn't or should happen in a well run club/school (We tend to have clubs here while you seem to have schools) whether or no not the place is run for profit, we should disregard that part and concentrate on whether the training is any good or not. There's plenty of places that aren't run for the money that aren't very good!
> 
> My take is that children shouldn't be given blackbelts under the age of at least 16 preferably older. Blackbelts should take longer than a year to reach if the person is new to martial arts. Self defence techniques should always be realistic. Bunkai should always be taught as kata/forms totally pointless without it. Sparring should be as realistic as possible too.


 

Here is the problem Tez and a few others and I will use me and my family only. I have been training since I could walk my father tought so we learned. When I got married so did my wife start training because of me and now we have three boys the oldest is 14 and then 11 and 10 they have been training since tey could walk and have grown up inside a dokaang. so Zachary has been training 11 years 4-6 days a week and two to four hours a day. This is why they are Junior BB, you and some of the other are going to say they do not deserve this because they are not 16, they have more time in than most adult and they know the material better than most people. I know they are the exception to the rule and that is what need to be taken into consideration in all cases. Those exception in all walks of life, not just martial arts but fashion designers, tennis stars and doctors, road scolars and so forth. There are always those with more time and training then most. This is all I have to say about this anymore, people that know me and my training knows I do not run a Mcdojo's a;ll other can make up there own minds one way or the other.


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## Tez3

terryl965 said:


> Here is the problem Tez and a few others and I will use me and my family only. I have been training since I could walk my father tought so we learned. When I got married so did my wife start training because of me and now we have three boys the oldest is 14 and then 11 and 10 they have been training since tey could walk and have grown up inside a dokaang. so Zachary has been training 11 years 4-6 days a week and two to four hours a day. This is why they are Junior BB, you and some of the other are going to say they do not deserve this because they are not 16, they have more time in than most adult and they know the material better than most people. I know they are the exception to the rule and that is what need to be taken into consideration in all cases. Those exception in all walks of life, not just martial arts but fashion designers, tennis stars and doctors, road scolars and so forth. There are always those with more time and training then most. This is all I have to say about this anymore, people that know me and my training knows I do not run a Mcdojo's a;ll other can make up there own minds one way or the other.


 

*Of course they deserve their belts*! I'm just trying to get the 'conversation' away from the personal attacks and the sniping that's on this thread and hopefully get it off to a different direction!
The thing is as well you have said they are junior BB, they aren't going to be 5th Dans at age 12 for example. I have a mother who is pressuring us to promote her son to full blackbelt at 12, they were posted in earlier this year and initially she told us he was due to receive his BB later this year but we asked for his last certificate of grading, it seems he was a 4th kyu of a style we didn't recognise. His mother said it was TKD but he has a black and yellow suit with a blue/red belt ( not a stripe, it's half and half) and is a kyu grade not kup.
The lad enjoys training, is good at his kicks and punches which are similiar to TKD but his mother wants him to be a black belt, she doesn't see he isn't ready mentally or physicaly and is really not bothered about being a BB! If he'd stayed at his old club no doubt he would be a BB by now, an unhappy one at that.
I'm trying to steer this away from attacks on people because of the way they train and accusations that "this one is a McDojo but of course mine isn't".


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## terryl965

OK Yez no problem I agree with what you sad. Personal attack should not be tolerated here on MT and if they feel that way they need to report such things to the Mods and Bob Hubbard. Thanks for your help in steering this back on track.


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## Tez3

terryl965 said:


> OK Yez no problem I agree with what you sad. Personal attack should not be tolerated here on MT and if they feel that way they need to report such things to the Mods and Bob Hubbard. Thanks for your help in steering this back on track.


 
Well it's something that's worth discussing. 
I went to a friends TKD class a while back while I was still quite a low grade in Wado, we did three step sparring and I was paired with a child of about 10 who was a higher grade than myself, it was a humbling experience to be taught by a child! he was very good and I'm glad at the time I didn't have to spar with him lol! 
I should have written I think that I don't approve of adult or senior BBs being awarded to children shouldn't I? I do believe children should be rewarded for hard work and effort, my main problem with them being given full BBs is that I think we are putting too much onto them, often they are expected to teach at a young age where they should still be having fun training. I know that's another subject that people differ on...having fun while training!
I worry that these days we are pushing children into adulthood far too soon, not just in martial arts but in everything. I also worry when children are doing too much in martial arts, grappling in head guards concerns me. There was a proposal in adult MMA here that the amateur rules should include head shots but the fighters wear headguards, this was shot down immediately by all the fighters and coaches many of them well known and experienced, grappling with head guards was dangerous and yet kids are being encouraged to do in it the name of safety
.
Perhaps the worse thing about McDojos is that they can be as well meaning as you could wish for but the depth of knowledge simply isn't there to protect children ...and adults.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

bob0812 said:


> I changed my name because no matter what I say their are a couple of people on here not saying who that dogg my threads...I just post a thread to get input not chopped down. So I would rather not have one of my students one day find this site and see their instructors geting ripped on. i think i have good points and dont need someone talking smack on me in a public forum. post your thoughts but dont talk smack on the poster, that is my feeling!


Firstly, nobody dogged on your thread or chopped you down. Nobody has ripped on you on this thread. You have been asked to clarify your reasons for posting that link with the pejorative description. You clarified that on the last page (and I thank you for doing so). As for your points, until page eight, you hadn't made any on this thread; you just posted a link and called the place "The definition of a McDojo" and then didn't post for quite some time. 

Actually, the vast majority of the posts on this thread have been about the second link (can't remember who posted it) to the Youtube video and about McDojos in general. Not much was said about your OP because you really didn't say anything.

I posted a link back the Youn Hwa Ryu thread because of how upset you yourself became when similar assertions were made about your own school and GM. You and others from your association defended your school and GM, something that I would have done if such assertions were made regarding my own dojang and GM. And just as the negative comments made about your school were countered with positive comments from students who currently attend, I will guarantee you that the school which is the subject of your OP has its own devoted students who would give glowing testimonials about their dojang.

I've never been to either your school, nor the one you referrenced in the OP, so I have zero opinion of the training received at either. I make it a point not to name schools on the web unless I have positive commentary. I will say that know of schools that do 'thus and so' but if anyone wants further info, they need to pm me to get it. To date, nobody has.

I said this earlier on this thread, so I'll say it again. I often wonder what sort of comments people make about my own school when they peruse the website or perhaps visit and decide against staying. We are all from disparate parts of the country, so we can all be kind of a society of no-nonsense dojangs, but we're the clique. Soley based on our websites or a bit of negative feedback from a disgruntled student or someone who passed by on a bad day (we all have them), whole threads could be started about any one of nearly 99% of all martial arts schools, our own included as you have experienced. 

Heck, my own school has contracts, twelve belts including white and black, and a blackbelt is generally achieved in roughly two years. Point of fact, our two year contract used to be called a blackbelt program when it was pitched to customers. I know because that is how it was pitched to me. To be fair, when I said that I hoped that the belt was not a guarantee, GM Kim said that it was not; just that two years is the average time to BB at our school assuming _*at least*_ two to three lessons a week and regular practice at home. I often wonder how many serious students turned and walked out the door after having the two year contract pitched as a BB contract without ever asking GM Kim to clarify. 

Lastly, I think that this thread has generated quite a bit of healthy discussion. Rather than getting upset over some perceived insult, weigh in on more topics. You're an instructor, so I'd gather that you have a substantial amount of input. And as your own system seems to be heavy on the TKD, you should be more than equiped to lend some educated posts on the TKD forum.

Best wishes,

Daniel


----------



## Tez3

OK, I GIVE UP :hb:


You can carry on feuding until the thread gets locked, I won't bother again trying to channel it into a useful discussion anymore.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Tez3 said:


> OK, I GIVE UP :hb:
> 
> 
> You can carry on feuding until the thread gets locked, I won't bother again trying to channel it into a useful discussion anymore.


No feuding here, Tez. I'd consider that a very civil response and hardly feuding. I asked him earlier on the thread to clarify is OP, which he has. I thanked him both in the above thread and via the thank button. I don't know the school and he apparently has first hand knowledge of it, so I'm certainly not going to waste bandwidth debating him regarding the veracity of his assessment. 

A bunch of posts were made since I last posted and I got to this one before I got to yours. I generally try to respond in order and make no apologies for doing so. 

In any case, I made no personal attacks in my above post, either outright or implied, nor do I have any issue with Bob0812. I meant what I said; the guy is an instructor. I'd like to see more from him. Besides, he's a fellow name changer.

Daniel


----------



## Tez3

Daniel, by the time the thread has got to this point I think frankly it could have been sorted by PM rather than repeated posting, if you haven't got the answers you are looking for by now I don't think it's coming. I'm trying to get away from you 'name changers' lol just having a conversation between yourselves! And feuding can be polite you know!


----------



## BrandonLucas

I would like to throw this out there in reference to the website thing:

Don't judge the school by its .com.  Much the same as "Don't judge a book by its cover." 

Creating and maintaining a website is not for everyone...including instructors who don't have the computer knowledge to make one.  Our dojang used to have a website, I'm ashamed to say...lol....it was an angelfire page, with only the school logo on the page and contact info below that.  It looked terrible.

On the subject of the "McDojo", I agree that going off of what was posted in the OP and then again on page 8, I don't see anything that really stands out.  Now, it is entirely possible that I'm not looking closely enough, or possibly the wrong page was posted.  Or, then again, it could be that there is more info that the OP has that the rest of us don't have that the opinion is being made from.  Either way, I second what Daniel said about posting a school's name....please be careful before posting someone's information on the internet for the world to see.

Another thing I've noticed, too, is that the "McDojo" term is thrown around alot.  I think that there's a distinct difference between a McDojo and a flat out bad school.

IMO, a McDojo is all about making a profit, no matter what.  Extra ranks are added in, students are charged for anything and everything, and the price for instruction is often very over-inflated, as well as the price for the things sold at the school.  Also, the student is often only allowed to purchase the items for class from the school...i.e. sparring gear, uniforms, etc.

Now, that doesn't mean that when the student actually gets to the class portion, that they aren't receiving quality instruciton.  It is very possible that a school has a very effective instructor who is good with kids and better with adults, knows the cirriculum fully, is able to perform the techniques that the students are expected to perform, and is able to teach the cirriculum effectively...but is still driven by greed.

This is very different from a school that just passes people through the ranks and tells them that they did a good job.  Schools like this might not charge anything at all for their instruction.

By the same token, and I think this is where things get a little fuzzy, bad schools often share some or all of the same characteristics as a McDojo...but, to me, in cases like this, the term "bad school" still outweighs the term McDojo.  

Just some McFood for thought....


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Tez3 said:


> Daniel, by the time the thread has got to this point I think frankly it could have been sorted by PM rather than repeated posting, if you haven't got the answers you are looking for by now I don't think it's coming. I'm trying to get away from you 'name changers' lol just having a conversation between yourselves! And feuding can be polite you know!


Yes it can, lol.  He did answer the question for me, though which I do appreciate.

Daniel


----------



## Windsinger

Okay, I'm not claiming to be any kind of Great Martial Arts Master, but I look at this:
Penacook School Kara-te 2006 commercial
and I just feel sorry for the students there. My grandmother kicks harder than some of their students, and she's been dead for over 20 years!

Then again, I saw this:
PSK "No Touch Knockout"
and realized they're affiliated with George Dillman, someone I've only seen nice comments about from his students. A man who said one of his students couldn't use his "no touch knockout" on a skeptic because "if the guy had his tongue in the wrong position of his mouth, that could nullify it."
:BSmeter:


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

I have a very hard time taking Dilman's association seriously.  Very sad to see a man of his level promoting chi balls that only work on your uke but not on an assailant.  And to subject your students to a National Geographic special, wherein your technique is shown to be fake, and to give that awful tongue in the wrong spot and little toe lifted up blocking the chi excuse makes me wonder if really believes that that stuff is real.  Perhaps he's fooled himself.  

Either way, he's not an unskilled man and should be using his rank and station to promote authentic martial arts instead of being an MA snake oil salesman.

Daniel


----------



## BrandonLucas

Well, to be fair, Dilman has been outed numerous times as someone of questionable knowledge...I'm not sure if his school is a McDojo or not, but I would say that his instruction isn't up to par.

I still say that there's a difference between a McDojo and a just plain bad school.  A school can be a McDojo and still offer decent instruction...and a school can have bad instruction and not be a McDojo.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

BrandonLucas said:


> I still say that there's a difference between a McDojo and a just plain bad school. A school can be a McDojo and still offer decent instruction...and a school can have bad instruction and not be a McDojo.


And that is the heart of the matter.  On TKDspace, I have a blog about the idea of the McDojo (two or three actually) and anyone is more than free to view it; the link to my TKDspace profile is in my signature, and there, I'm still the Celtic Tiger.

To sum it up, the thing that makes McDonalds so commercially successful is that each franchisee follows the exact same business model to a tee.  Nothing is changed from restaurant to restaurant.  A Big Mac tastes the same in Gaithersburg as it does in Tysons Corner VA as it does in Saint Louis Missouri as it does in Dublin Ireland.  

And while McDonald's foot isn't all that great, the same model has been used in better restaurants and works well.  Ruby Tuesdays, TGI Fridays, Applebees, the now sadly defunct Bennigans, and Chilles all use essentially the same business model as one another: American Burger joints where a meal at one place roughly equates a meal at any of the others, memorabilia all over the walls, and a sports bar.  Nobody would argue that the food at these places is of a much higher caliber than McDonalds.  But they all use the exact same burger joint business model (same as eachother, not same as McDonalds for those unfamiliar with the plaves I mentioned).

By the same token, a McDojo is a business model; nothing more and nothing less.  And like any business model, if it is staffed with lousy personnel, then it will be a lousy school.  If it is staffed with qualified personnel who care about what they're doing, then it will be a good school.

Personally, I see the McDojo model as actually being a good thing if the school has decent instruction: since the McDojo model is profitable, it keeps a good school open.  Now, this is assuming that they don't take the business end way over the top and charge stupid fees (such as one school I'd read about that charged 4500 dollars to get to green belt).

Daniel


----------



## BrandonLucas

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And that is the heart of the matter. On TKDspace, I have a blog about the idea of the McDojo (two or three actually) and anyone is more than free to view it; the link to my TKDspace profile is in my signature, and there, I'm still the Celtic Tiger.
> 
> To sum it up, the thing that makes McDonalds so commercially successful is that each franchisee follows the exact same business model to a tee. Nothing is changed from restaurant to restaurant. A Big Mac tastes the same in Gaithersburg as it does in Tysons Corner VA as it does in Saint Louis Missouri as it does in Dublin Ireland.
> 
> And while McDonald's foot isn't all that great, the same model has been used in better restaurants and works well. Ruby Tuesdays, TGI Fridays, Applebees, the now sadly defunct Bennigans, and Chilles all use essentially the same business model as one another: American Burger joints where a meal at one place roughly equates a meal at any of the others, memorabilia all over the walls, and a sports bar. Nobody would argue that the food at these places is of a much higher caliber than McDonalds. But they all use the exact same burger joint business model (same as eachother, not same as McDonalds for those unfamiliar with the plaves I mentioned).
> 
> By the same token, a McDojo is a business model; nothing more and nothing less. And like any business model, if it is staffed with lousy personnel, then it will be a lousy school. If it is staffed with qualified personnel who care about what they're doing, then it will be a good school.
> 
> Personally, I see the McDojo model as actually being a good thing if the school has decent instruction: since the McDojo model is profitable, it keeps a good school open. Now, this is assuming that they don't take the business end way over the top and charge stupid fees (such as one school I'd read about that charged 4500 dollars to get to green belt).
> 
> Daniel


 
I agree with what you're saying here. The only thing I would change is that...and this is strictly my opinion, so there's really no right or wrong with what you're saying or what I'm saying...to me, McDojo's tend to be the schools that shoot over the top with their prices and requirements.  

If more than one school adopts the same marketing method, to me, it's simply a "sister school" and is good business.  Keeps everything equal across the board.

But McDojo's, on the other hand...while they still have the chain marketing concept, the prices tend to be over the top, and their merchandise is considered a requirement for the students to own, and can only be purchased at that school or one of it's affiliates.

So, I'm in agreement with you as far as it being good business to keep the same marketing plan for a chain of schools....but it needs to be done sensibly.  Going over the top makes it stick out in a bad way, thusly becoming a McDojo.

But this is all my opinion on the subject.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Most of the schools out my way, McDojo or not, tend to stay within a particular price range, which is between eighty and a hundred and fifty a month.  Our school is in the low-middle of that range.  Some are towards the top, others right at the bottom.  The area simply won't sustain a school that deviates substantially in the high end; even though the area is wealthy, the one bit of research that customers in this area do for MA is shop price.  They may not be able to distinguish between an ATA 6 year old black belt and a Kyoshukin karate black belt adult, but they sure do know when the price is way out of line, lol.

Daniel


----------



## CDKJudoka

Daniel Sullivan said:


> the one bit of research that customers in this area do for MA is shop price.  They may not be able to distinguish between an ATA 6 year old black belt and a Kyoshukin karate black belt adult, but they sure do know when the price is way out of line, lol.
> 
> Daniel




That is kinda sad, because most of teh parents are doing it as a form of babysitting, and the cheapest MA school, makes a great babysitter.


----------



## terryl965

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Most of the schools out my way, McDojo or not, tend to stay within a particular price range, which is between eighty and a hundred and fifty a month. Our school is in the low-middle of that range. Some are towards the top, others right at the bottom. The area simply won't sustain a school that deviates substantially in the high end; even though the area is wealthy, the one bit of research that customers in this area do for MA is shop price. They may not be able to distinguish between an ATA 6 year old black belt and a Kyoshukin karate black belt adult, but they sure do know when the price is way out of line, lol.
> 
> Daniel


 
Yes they shop for price and not quality, that is a big problem. With us at 75.00 a month for unlimited we are below the going rate on the everage of 135.00 and that is three time a week. Most see us as not that good because the price is lower than other schools and they are tiny compared to size wise. We have 7600 sqaure feet and they have around 1500 sqaure feet. Society puts up these rediculas prices and then wonder about legit schools.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

DarkPhoenix said:


> That is kinda sad, because most of teh parents are doing it as a form of babysitting, and the cheapest MA school, makes a great babysitter.


Personally, I think that all the martial arts schools with an "afterschool" program in our area ought to make afterschool programs cost 80% of what the average daycare center costs for the same service.  Then the parents would still get a savings and the dojo could make enough, not only to have actual licensed staff dedicated to the afterschool program, but to generate a good healthy profit in addition that could go to hiring and appropriately compensating the very best instructors.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965

DarkPhoenix said:


> That is kinda sad, because most of teh parents are doing it as a form of babysitting, and the cheapest MA school, makes a great babysitter.


 
This is not true we are cheaper by about 50.00 a month but the other schools have all those patches and belt test every month and that is why thy are there to be Kararte moms just like all those soccor moms.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

terryl965 said:


> Yes they shop for price and not quality, that is a big problem. With us at 75.00 a month for unlimited we are below the going rate on the everage of 135.00 and that is three time a week. Most see us as not that good because the price is lower than other schools and they are tiny compared to size wise. We have 7600 sqaure feet and they have around 1500 sqaure feet. Society puts up these rediculas prices and then wonder about legit schools.


One of the problems is that they don't know how to shop for quality in a martial arts school, though I do feel that they could learn if they really wanted to.  But if all the parents want is a cheap afterschool program, 135/month is but a small fraction of what an actual daycare center costs.  Which is why I feel as I stated in my above post.  

The other problem is that a lot of teens and adults want the belts and the rank but without the hard work and are willing to pay for the priviledge.  And that is actually much, much more sad than the whole dojo daycare.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965

Daniel Sullivan said:


> One of the problems is that they don't know how to shop for quality in a martial arts school, though I do feel that they could learn if they really wanted to. But if all the parents want is a cheap afterschool program, 135/month is but a small fraction of what an actual daycare center costs. Which is why I feel as I stated in my above post.
> 
> The other problem is that a lot of teens and adults want the belts and the rank but without the hard work and are willing to pay for the priviledge. And that is actually much, much more sad than the whole dojo daycare.
> 
> Daniel


 
This is so true.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

terryl965 said:


> This is not true we are cheaper by about 50.00 a month but the other schools have all those patches and belt test every month and that is why they are there to be Kararte moms just like all those soccor moms.


Actually, I think that the patches are a great thing. Use patches instead of constant belts. Kid does great, he gets another gold star on his collar. A little girl has perfect attendance, she gets another stripe on her sleeve. Both do well in competitions? A chevron on the sleeves. Academic achievement? A blue star on the collar. All this without a belt test and perhaps also keeping the quantity of belts fairly low. I'd rather have the students look like Christmas trees than give them rank for which they are not ready and keeps them in my school.  

Daniel


----------



## CDKJudoka

I am in one of the more expensive schools in the area ($235 a month for both me and my son) and that doesn't include testing. It does include, however, dobak, patches and for an additional $25 a month they have the afterschool programme for my son. We both have unlimited classes and we test every 3 months for the gups, and 6 months for the dans. I'm not saying that cheap schools are bad. My Judo dojo charges me $20 a month for two, 2 hour classes a week. I just think, around here at least, the cheaper schools just become babysitters for the Suzy Soccer Moms' unruly children. And more often than not, I have found, they tend to churn out people with limited martial knowledge, and bad attitudes to go with it.

"KOBRA KAI!!"


----------



## Tez3

My kids don't grade that often only when they are ready, they don't get badges either, what they get is a heartfelt well done and well tried when merited. Kids love it, I don't care what the parents think lol!


----------



## kidswarrior

Tez3 said:


> Kids love it, I don't care what the parents think lol!


Rebel! :lol:


----------



## jks9199

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And that is the heart of the matter.  On TKDspace, I have a blog about the idea of the McDojo (two or three actually) and anyone is more than free to view it; the link to my TKDspace profile is in my signature, and there, I'm still the Celtic Tiger.
> 
> To sum it up, the thing that makes McDonalds so commercially successful is that each franchisee follows the exact same business model to a tee.  Nothing is changed from restaurant to restaurant.  A Big Mac tastes the same in Gaithersburg as it does in Tysons Corner VA as it does in Saint Louis Missouri as it does in Dublin Ireland.
> 
> And while McDonald's foot isn't all that great, the same model has been used in better restaurants and works well.  Ruby Tuesdays, TGI Fridays, Applebees, the now sadly defunct Bennigans, and Chilles all use essentially the same business model as one another: American Burger joints where a meal at one place roughly equates a meal at any of the others, memorabilia all over the walls, and a sports bar.  Nobody would argue that the food at these places is of a much higher caliber than McDonalds.  But they all use the exact same burger joint business model (same as eachother, not same as McDonalds for those unfamiliar with the plaves I mentioned).
> 
> By the same token, a McDojo is a business model; nothing more and nothing less.  And like any business model, if it is staffed with lousy personnel, then it will be a lousy school.  If it is staffed with qualified personnel who care about what they're doing, then it will be a good school.
> 
> Personally, I see the McDojo model as actually being a good thing if the school has decent instruction: since the McDojo model is profitable, it keeps a good school open.  Now, this is assuming that they don't take the business end way over the top and charge stupid fees (such as one school I'd read about that charged 4500 dollars to get to green belt).
> 
> Daniel


Great post.

But it begs the question: must the business model equate to bad instruction, 8 or 10 year old "black belts" and the other problems of the McDojo?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

jks9199 said:


> Great post.
> 
> But it begs the question: must the business model equate to bad instruction, 8 or 10 year old "black belts" and the other problems of the McDojo?


Technically, it doesn't have to, but somehow it always seems to go that direction.

Daniel


----------



## CDKJudoka

Tez3 said:


> My kids don't grade that often only when they are ready, they don't get badges either, what they get is a heartfelt well done and well tried when merited. Kids love it, I don't care what the parents think lol!




Well, if they aren't ready to test, either by what they feel, or what the instructors feel, they aren't forced to. We do have patches, but that is for merits with helping other students, if they are an advanced belt. 

Currently my son is an 8th Gup and I am 1st Dan level 1.


----------



## Tez3

kidswarrior said:


> Rebel! :lol:


 

Ta! I've only got this way over the past couple of weeks after being shouted at by parents! First the two mums who were upset at their daughters not grading, then by another mother who said she hadn't been told about the grading yet her husband had earlier told me their son couldn't come because he was doing something they couldn't cancel and then by the father who demanded a suit for the grading fee of a few quid instead of buying one! 
then there's the parents who slunk out of the door when our pro fighter came in....because he does the doors in our local nightclub and he threw them out and watched them get arrested for fighting (each other) TWICE! there's the parents who talk all through the lessons so that I have to give them the look so they keep quiet, and.... well you get the idea lol!
We have some good parents though!


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Technically, it doesn't have to, but somehow it always seems to go that direction.
> 
> Daniel




I said this in another thread, but I believe using McDojo marketing methods inevitably causes your school to dive quality-wise simply because of the type of students you will draw in.  It's a painful thought I know, but nonetheless it's true in my opinion.

If you need to make money from your school, go ahead and run a McDojo; there's nothing wrong with capitalism.   I like the french fries from MickeyD's myself.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> I said this in another thread, but I believe using McDojo marketing methods inevitably causes your school to dive quality-wise simply because of the type of students you will draw in. It's a painful thought I know, but nonetheless it's true in my opinion.
> 
> If you need to make money from your school, go ahead and run a McDojo; there's nothing wrong with capitalism. I like the french fries from MickeyD's myself.


I think that in order for the McDojo model to succeed in a good school, it must be a trend in the area to have good instruction with a McDojo model.  That way, the expectations are higher on the part of the incoming students.  Once again, that is sadly not the case.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965

DarkPhoenix said:


> I am in one of the more expensive schools in the area ($235 a month for both me and my son) and that doesn't include testing. It does include, however, dobak, patches and for an additional $25 a month they have the afterschool programme for my son. We both have unlimited classes and we test every 3 months for the gups, and 6 months for the dans. I'm not saying that cheap schools are bad. My Judo dojo charges me $20 a month for two, 2 hour classes a week. I just think, around here at least, the cheaper schools just become babysitters for the Suzy Soccer Moms' unruly children. And more often than not, I have found, they tend to churn out people with limited martial knowledge, and bad attitudes to go with it.
> 
> "KOBRA KAI!!"


 
Well it takes about 4-5 years to recieve a BB though my TKD club, most schools turn them out in 18-24 months. So I am not a Babysitting school and I am cheap, I have been fighting this money forever. I nee student and I would probaly get better quality of people if I was higher. Maybe that is the key to run a successful school.


----------



## Tez3

Sometimes you can't charge enough money that will compensate for teaching some people LOL!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

DarkPhoenix said:


> I am in one of the more expensive schools in the area ($235 a month for both me and my son) and that doesn't include testing. It does include, however, dobak, patches and for an additional $25 a month they have the afterschool programme for my son. We both have unlimited classes and we test every 3 months for the gups, and 6 months for the dans. I'm not saying that cheap schools are bad. My Judo dojo charges me $20 a month for two, 2 hour classes a week. I just think, around here at least, the cheaper schools just become babysitters for the Suzy Soccer Moms' unruly children. And more often than not, I have found, they tend to churn out people with limited martial knowledge, and bad attitudes to go with it.
> 
> "KOBRA KAI!!"


Sweep the leg, Johnny.


----------



## dancingalone

terryl965 said:


> Well it takes about 4-5 years to recieve a BB though my TKD club, most schools turn them out in 18-24 months. So I am not a Babysitting school and I am cheap, I have been fighting this money forever. I nee student and I would probaly get better quality of people if I was higher. Maybe that is the key to run a successful school.




Terry, do you mind sharing how much you charge currently and what you play to change your rates to?  I run a noncommercial school myself.  I charge $25 a month for 2 two-hr classes a week.  I'm not accepting any more students at this time until some quit, since we're right at the limit that I feel I can teach and still maintain a high level of personal attention to each student.


----------



## CDKJudoka

terryl965 said:


> Well it takes about 4-5 years to recieve a BB though my TKD club, most schools turn them out in 18-24 months. So I am not a Babysitting school and I am cheap, I have been fighting this money forever. I nee student and I would probaly get better quality of people if I was higher. Maybe that is the key to run a successful school.




That is about the average time span at our school. It could take longer and it could take less. 

I was just reading your other thread and was curious as to how you decision making was going on the BBC front. And what organisations are you allied with? My school is currently with United Chung Do Kwan, Kukkiwon, and an organisation called Martial Arts America. They have a few of the McDojang aspects involved with it, but it hasn't watered down that training that any of our students get, even the "Li'l Dragons". My son started as a Lil Dragon and I was very impressed at what he picked up in the 6 months he's been there. That is what got me to sign up at the school. I leave class bruised, sore, and loving every minute of it. Where is you dojang located?


----------



## fangjian

I'm not a TKD guy but I couldn't resist posting.  
In spotting a McDojo it's really all about 'honesty'.  At my school, I say I teach MMA because I teach Kickboxing, grappling and weapons combat.  To me that is complete in making a solid martial artist who can defend themselves in combat. I also teach like 5 different martial arts, so it's definately 'mixed'.  If I said I teach people to be fighters in the cage I would be operating a McDojo.  There are too many comlexities that I don't know about for sport fighting and we'd get killed.  I'd like to get into it more though. 
 I'm also truthful about my own skill.  In grappling (BJJ) I think I'm a 'blue belt at best.  I think I'm a decent teacher of it all though, and I will produce better grapplers than some black belt teachers I've seen.   My student are getting good.  When I first opened my school I only taught Contemporary Wushu (kung fu forms).  It still was not a McDojo because I was truthful about what my students were learning and still am no matter what it is.  
Since I'm here, I'm actually interested in some TKD.  The way they do those spin kicks are simply amazing and I'd love to add that to my kickboxing curriculum.  Any good TKD places in Eastern CT?


----------



## Tez3

fangjian said:


> I'm not a TKD guy but I couldn't resist posting.
> In spotting a McDojo it's really all about 'honesty'. At my school, I say I teach MMA because I teach Kickboxing, grappling and weapons combat. To me that is complete in making a solid martial artist who can defend themselves in combat. I also teach like 5 different martial arts, so it's definately 'mixed'. If I said I teach people to be fighters in the cage I would be operating a McDojo. There are too many comlexities that I don't know about for sport fighting and we'd get killed.* I'd like to get into it more though. *
> I'm also truthful about my own skill. In grappling (BJJ) I think I'm a 'blue belt at best. I think I'm a decent teacher of it all though, and I will produce better grapplers than some black belt teachers I've seen. My student are getting good. When I first opened my school I only taught Contemporary Wushu (kung fu forms). It still was not a McDojo because I was truthful about what my students were learning and still am no matter what it is.
> Since I'm here, I'm actually interested in some TKD. The way they do those spin kicks are simply amazing and I'd love to add that to my kickboxing curriculum. Any good TKD places in Eastern CT?


 
Is there anything I can help you with this bearing in mind I'm over here and you're there?


----------



## fangjian

Tez3 said:


> Is there anything I can help you with this bearing in mind I'm over here and you're there?


 
I don't understand.  Help me with what? TKD?


----------



## Tez3

fangjian said:


> I don't understand. Help me with what? TKD?


 
You said you wanted to get more into MMA?


----------



## ellies

Tetsujin said:


> This is a McDojo.


 I feel soooooo sad now.
:soapbox:


----------



## ellies

fangjian said:


> I'm not a TKD guy but I couldn't resist posting.
> In spotting a McDojo it's really all about 'honesty'.  At my school, I say I teach MMA because I teach Kickboxing, grappling and weapons combat.  To me that is complete in making a solid martial artist who can defend themselves in combat. I also teach like 5 different martial arts, so it's definately 'mixed'.  If I said I teach people to be fighters in the cage I would be operating a McDojo.  There are too many comlexities that I don't know about for sport fighting and we'd get killed.  I'd like to get into it more though.
> I'm also truthful about my own skill.  In grappling (BJJ) I think I'm a 'blue belt at best.  I think I'm a decent teacher of it all though, and I will produce better grapplers than some black belt teachers I've seen.   My student are getting good.  When I first opened my school I only taught Contemporary Wushu (kung fu forms).  It still was not a McDojo because I was truthful about what my students were learning and still am no matter what it is.
> Since I'm here, I'm actually interested in some TKD.  The way they do those spin kicks are simply amazing and I'd love to add that to my kickboxing curriculum.  Any good TKD places in Eastern CT?



I'd come to your school because I definately know I would learn something.  Honest teagchers always teach great classes.  Thank you for posting!!:ultracool


----------



## ellies

BrandonLucas said:


> The problem is that if you watch the video, the kid is not 3rd dan material, jr BB or not...and I'm not 100% sure on this one, but I've never heard of a jr BB that was able to earn a dan at all...they usually top out at the title of jr BB, correct?
> 
> But, on topic, the kid isn't impressive at all.  Even if you take into consideration that he's a kid, he just looks like he's going through the motions.  He doesn't appear to understand the application of any of the techniques...only that his instructor has showed him where to place his hands and feet, and he just puts them there.
> 
> It's like watching a small kid play "The Sky Is Crying" by Stevie Ray Vaughn that has learned the song from a tab sheet...there probably isn't any feeling in it at all, he's just going through the notes that are on the page.
> 
> But, like I've said before, it doesn't mean that the kid isn't on the way to earning a blackbelt...I just don't think he's at a blackbelt level for any age.



I have noticed that in alot of schools, where the kids seems to have no real devotion for learning save they go through the movements and get promoted.  At one school I heard an instructor say, "What if you had to use this to save your life then what?  Let's do it again and I want and hope you put your hearts and souls into it, make it as though your lives depend on this technique!"


----------



## matt.m

Wow, 
I know the folks that run this academy.  They indeed are making a living teaching.  Yes there belt requirements are less than mine.  However, the people I know that train at this academy are humble, gracious, full of good humor, and just really good people.  I had a few over when my wife and I had a BBQ over the summer.  The GGM of our org. came and well the folks got up and greeted GGM with sincere politeness.

There are 2 sides of martial arts......the martial part that anyone can learn given enough time.  I believe it is the intangibles of confidence, respect, honor, courage, committment, integrity, humility that really makes the martial arts.  I have always thought that if you train hard every day then you are martial artists.  

I have seen garage, dungeon, small building, and very commercial schools.  In the end it comes down to conviction and how hard you really train.  If your mind is in the right frame then the rest is easy.

Martial Arts is a Journey not a belt color.


AMP-RYU said:


> For all those wondering what Mcdojo is check out this schools site. Look at their masters and black belt and look at their testing requirements! Its hilarious!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> WorldTaekwondo.com:erg:


----------



## fangjian

Tez3 said:


> You said you wanted to get more into MMA?


 Yeah I'd like to in the future 'cause I know some of my students might be interested in sport fighting(mma/kickboxing).  I don't know a lot of the 'sport' stuff, like taking care of swelling, rules etc.  I'd be an awful corner man  I'm learning though, I guess.


----------



## fangjian

ellies said:


> I'd come to your school because I definately know I would learn something. Honest teagchers always teach great classes. Thank you for posting!!:ultracool


 Thank you for your kind words.  Come down anytime if you're nearby.


----------



## Tez3

fangjian said:


> Yeah I'd like to in the future 'cause I know some of my students might be interested in sport fighting(mma/kickboxing). I don't know a lot of the 'sport' stuff, like taking care of swelling, rules etc. I'd be an awful corner man I'm learning though, I guess.


 

"Stitch" Duran has a very good DVD out called "Giving a fighter one more round" about being a corner and cutman that would be worth you getting, good for fighters too to know what to expect from their cornerperson.
the rest you'll pick up or you'll get plenty of info on here, you can always PM me if you like, I've been in MMA for 8 years now ( over 16 in MA), I corner train and ref but sadly too old to fight lol unless I can find another middle aged person to fight , still I get to beat the men up in the club and at work so that'll have to do!


----------



## hkfuie

matt.m said:


> There are 2 sides of martial arts......the martial part that anyone can learn given enough time.  I believe it is the intangibles of confidence, respect, honor, courage, committment, integrity, humility that really makes the martial arts.  I have always thought that if you train hard every day then you are martial artists.
> ...
> 
> Martial Arts is a Journey not a belt color.



I'll second that.


----------



## fangjian

Tez3 said:


> "Stitch" Duran has a very good DVD out called "Giving a fighter one more round" about being a corner and cutman that would be worth you getting, good for fighters too to know what to expect from their cornerperson.
> the rest you'll pick up or you'll get plenty of info on here, you can always PM me if you like, I've been in MMA for 8 years now ( over 16 in MA), I corner train and ref but sadly too old to fight lol unless I can find another middle aged person to fight , still I get to beat the men up in the club and at work so that'll have to do!


 Thanks for the info. I'll check it out.  Yeah I'd love to fight too.  My wife won't let me though.  She says she put up with me going to Iraq a few years ago and my fighting days are over. hehehe


----------



## Tez3

fangjian said:


> Thanks for the info. I'll check it out. Yeah I'd love to fight too. My wife won't let me though. She says she put up with me going to Iraq a few years ago and my fighting days are over. hehehe


 

It's a shame you aren't closer to us! I have the perfect excuse for you to have an amateur fight in April lol! We are doing a special fund raising fight night for Help for Heroes and she'd be hard put to say no to that lol. Amateur rules are no head shots at all and most wives/GFs are happy with that. Most of our students are soldiers, back from Iraq and Afghanistan last year and due again at the end of next. I have two young brothers in the childrens class whose father is an American army officer on exchange, he's medically downgraded at the moment but he reckons he'll be due to go to the 'sandy countries' after this tour.
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/index.html?gclid=CP-e28aP3JcCFSVPEAod-Xu9Dw

We are getting together all the TMA and MMA people we can and are planning to do displays of everything we can think of, *all ideas very* *welcome*!! of course everyone has an invite!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

AMP-RYU said:


> For all those wondering what Mcdojo is check out this schools site. Look at their masters and black belt and look at their testing requirements! Its hilarious!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> WorldTaekwondo.com:erg:


Like the new name

Daniel


----------



## rabbit

"The typical progression of rank in TKD is white, yellow, green, blue, red, black. There are variations in there, especially when we're talking about different arts. But, when you start seeing camo, *tie-dye*, *rainbow*, or any other combination of colors, be wary."




LOL!!!


----------



## terryl965

rabbit said:


> "The typical progression of rank in TKD is white, yellow, green, blue, red, black. There are variations in there, especially when we're talking about different arts. But, when you start seeing camo, *tie-dye*, *rainbow*, or any other combination of colors, be wary."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL!!!


 

Come on the camo is one of the best kept secrets in all martial arts.


----------



## mango.man

rabbit said:


> "The typical progression of rank in TKD is white, yellow, green, blue, red, black. There are variations in there, especially when we're talking about different arts. But, when you start seeing camo, *tie-dye*, *rainbow*, or any other combination of colors, be wary."
> 
> LOL!!!



Our first school had a pink belt.  It was not an official belt, just what students would have to wear if they forgot theirs at home or something.  Unfortunately my daughter kinda liked it so she seemed to "forget" her belt more than she probably would have otherwise.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

rabbit said:


> "The typical progression of rank in TKD is white, yellow, green, blue, red, black. There are variations in there, especially when we're talking about different arts. But, when you start seeing camo, *tie-dye*, *rainbow*, or any other combination of colors, be wary."
> LOL!!!


As a general rule, I agree with you, though this is another area where, if the instruction is good, does the rainbow, tie dye, or camo belt matter?

Some schools have a pre-gup belt progression for young kids (little ninjas, little dragons, tiny tigers, shrunken Shaolin, or whatever), and for such programs, I think that these belts are actually appropriate.

If unusual belts are a part of a regular program, I am generally more interesed in the reasons behind the color choice.  Morbid curiosity, I know, but the the traditional colors in the belt progression were picked for a reason, so someone may have just as good a reason for an unusual belt color.  

There is a thread by LaurenTKD about doboks and I feel the same way about belts as I stated about different styles and colors of doboks: the belt colors are part of training at that school.  When in Rome, do as the Romans.  I'm at my dojang for the training.  I don't really care about the color selection of geub rank belts.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> When in Rome, do as the Romans.  I'm at my dojang for the training.  I don't really care about the color selection of geub rank belts.
> Daniel



Well of course the belt colors don't matter in the big picture, but I think it's indicative of the slant the school has.  I know an instructor that uses white, green, blue, purple, brown, and then black.  Not really that many colors, and the difficulty of the curriculum is telling.  It's not unusual for a student to stay at a color for over a year in his school even when they attend and practice regularly.  Contrast that to schools with lots of belts that promote every 2 months.

Camoflauge belt = commercial school.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> Well of course the belt colors don't matter in the big picture, but I think it's indicative of the slant the school has. I know an instructor that uses white, green, blue, purple, brown, and then black. Not really that many colors, and the difficulty of the curriculum is telling. It's not unusual for a student to stay at a color for over a year in his school even when they attend and practice regularly. Contrast that to schools with lots of belts that promote every 2 months.
> 
> Camoflauge belt = commercial school.


Pretty much.  If the commercial school offers outstanding instruction, then I'm alright with it being a commercial school.  Unfortunately, most such schools do not have outstanding instruction.

Though regarding camoglauge, more specifically, camoflauge belt = ATA school, as they're the only org I know of that uses it and are the ones who thought it up so far as I know.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Though regarding camoglauge, more specifically, camoflauge belt = ATA school, as they're the only org I know of that uses it and are the ones who thought it up so far as I know.
> 
> Daniel



Well, I wasn't going to name any names.    For the record, I think the ATA is perfect if you want to send your little tyke (< 10) to a 'ka-ruddy' class to have some fun and work off some steam.  

I won't use them with my child because I don't want him to form his impression of what martial arts is through their perspective.  I obviously prefer my own outlook.  At the same time, I cannot in conscience dilute my curriculum just to be able to show him some things.  He will be welcome to visit my dojo as a watcher, assuming he can behave and keep quiet, until he is about 13-14.  At that time, he may have the privilege of joining the class with the understanding that it is indeed a privilege and one that he must continue to earn.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Well, I don't mind naming names for something that is factual and unbiased.  The ATA is the only org that uses that belt and they came up with it.  Not a dig at the org; just giving them credit (?) where it is due, lol.

I've never been to an ATA school, so I cannot comment on the curriculum, though I suspect that like any other org, the quality of instruction varries from school to school with some being lousy and some being outstanding.

Daniel


----------



## CDKJudoka

We use camo belts for our Little Dragons programme. Gup ranks with us are White, Yellow, Green, Purple, Red, Brown, and then Black. On average it take a student who goes to class religiously (3 or more classes a week) 2 years to get to brown and another 2-3 years from brown to black.


----------



## rabbit

There is nothing wrong with camo belt, but tie dye and rainbow is absurd. How many people want a rainbow belt?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

rabbit said:


> There is nothing wrong with camo belt, but tie dye and rainbow is absurd. How many people want a rainbow belt?


One of our students has a six year old daugher in the kids class and she'd love a rainbow belt.

Daniel


----------



## sadantkd

I may be totally off on this because I can't see the video anymore.  This is obviously an old thread, but is it possible the kid in the video was learning disabled?  I have a student who will never be able to understand the true meaning behind technique and be able to apply it properly.  For him, just learning the motions is a great accomplishment.  He has worked every bit as "hard" to earn his belt as anyone else.  And the confidence he's gained through taekwondo training would be completely negated, and possible worse if we didn't allow him to progress.  Obviously, he's not going to instruct any classes, and he hasn't progressed as far or as fast as the rest of his family, but I certainly don't think we're doing anything wrong here. 

Again, I didn't see the video, and it is ATA (I call it Karate for Kids by Kids).  I just wanted to bring up this issue.


----------



## terryl965

sadantkd said:


> I may be totally off on this because I can't see the video anymore. This is obviously an old thread, but is it possible the kid in the video was learning disabled? I have a student who will never be able to understand the true meaning behind technique and be able to apply it properly. For him, just learning the motions is a great accomplishment. He has worked every bit as "hard" to earn his belt as anyone else. And the confidence he's gained through taekwondo training would be completely negated, and possible worse if we didn't allow him to progress. Obviously, he's not going to instruct any classes, and he hasn't progressed as far or as fast as the rest of his family, but I certainly don't think we're doing anything wrong here.
> 
> Again, I didn't see the video, and it is ATA (I call it Karate for Kids by Kids). I just wanted to bring up this issue.


 
Great point we have some challehde childern as well and we have a totally different program for them. It is in place so they can have some type of recognition for what they have achieved.


----------



## sadantkd

Thank you.  This is a great point and something I've been really frustrated with reading all this.  I guess my school exactly the "mcdojang" you've just described because after slaving away for years at a so-called real school where I didn't make enough money to pay my personal expenses, I now have a family to support.  I worked hard for my rank, and will not allow my students to do anything less, but I am implementing a business model that will finally allow me and any of my students that choose this as their livelyhood to be well compensated for the years of dedication it takes to be a professional instructor.


----------



## sadantkd

I couldn't disagree more strongly.  I look at my job as an instructor kind of like a pastor of a church.  I think it would be arrogant to turn students away because their attitude may not be perfect or whatever.  After all, I believe Taekwondo can change and save a person's life.  I want everybody to have the chance to experience all this incredible lifestyle has to offer.  At the same time, I have a level of love and respect for my lifestyle that I'm not gonna cheapen it by selling out with regards to promotions.  I guess what I'm trying to say here, is that I will use every marketing tool and retention tool available to make sure my school is full, but I will never promote somebody to a rank they haven't earned.


----------



## sadantkd

There are quite a few people who would love the rainbow belt.  In the DC area, they all tend to hang out at Dupont Circle.


----------



## dancingalone

sadantkd said:


> I couldn't disagree more strongly.  I look at my job as an instructor kind of like a pastor of a church.  I think it would be arrogant to turn students away because their attitude may not be perfect or whatever.  After all, I believe Taekwondo can change and save a person's life.  I want everybody to have the chance to experience all this incredible lifestyle has to offer.



And therein lies the difference.  I don't regard MA training as something for everyone.  I teach it as a FIGHTING art.  It's expected that you will shed blood occasionally in my dojo if not frequently.  I don't usually accept students under 18, and I actually try to prescreen prospective students ahead of time for maturity and PHYSICAL and mental aptitude.  I tell people if they're looking to get in shape, go join a gym.  If they're looking for sports competition, play some tennis.  If they wish to learn self-defense (and really self-defense is an attribute of learning how to FIGHT, i.e. hurt, maim, or kill another human being), I MAY be able to help them but only if it is a good fit for both them and me.

It's no coincidence that I have few students, and I don't try to make a living through teaching martial arts.  In this, I follow my own teacher who taught and still teaches in similar fashion.

By the way, I did view the original video when it was up.  The boy was not handicapped in any way.  He's just the product of a soft form of pedagogy more designed to build (false) self-esteem and make money than teach legitimate martial skills with any degree of rigor.


----------



## ATC

I tend to think that most schools are McDojo's or whatever you want to call them. However this is due to multiple reasons and even with that being the case the serious students will get quality training.

Most schools need to make money to stay open. Most people are not that serious about becoming the next great fighter. In reality how many people fight these days?

With the above being the case the school can only teach so many so much and have it be quality. However the instructors do see the serious and those students become the so called "Favorites" and get the extra attention. Have access to the studio to train on off hours and get to train with the instructors. They even get the benefits of any fund raisers. They often may not even have to pay the same prices of the other students or even get freebies many times.

Everyone gets out of it what they put in and the instructors see who puts in the time and effort and they get back for that.

At least this is what I see in our school. So unless you teach part time out of your garage and are trying to make a living out of your school...You may be a McDojo, McDojang too.


----------



## matt.m

I always tell people to fight the man not the belt.  Our training uniforms look horrible.  I mean they are all in one piece and good but not something you would go out of the school in for public appearance.  Geez my judo uniform resembles a well used rag.  A really sturdy rag.  We wear our "Junky looking" belts.  

I don't know, our TKD class has on average 14 people on the mat training.  Our little space barely accomodates that many on the mat at once.  More than 8 for judo is a crunch and it is always our 3-4 in hapkido.

We do have a very family friendly environment, but the discipline needed is instilled.  The kids rank at about a belt a year, maybe a little less but at least 10 months in between.  We do keep them together in a group even if they have to test 2x.  No one expects rank.  I don't know, I have seen schools promote someone to the next grade every 16 weeks.  Full rank, not stripe.  I have a student who never misses class, wins and competes often and is working towards brown 3rd test in june.  White, yellow, green. brown 3, brown 2, brown 1, black system.  He has been my student for 2 years.  

My theory is this:  If you make the class good and challenging then your students will not care about rank.  They will care about learning.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> I don't regard MA training as something for everyone. I teach it as a FIGHTING art.


Why must the two be mutually exclusive?

I think that everyone can benefit from the martial arts.  If for no other reason than this: there was a time when students would have schoolyard scrapes and such and by the time we all got out of high school, we all has a pretty good idea of what it was like to be in a fight.  When real trouble came our way, we knew what real trouble was.  We knew what it mean to hit and be hit.

Now, our lives are kept so sanitary that the divide between the average citizen and the street tough is so great that the average person is pretty much defenseless in every conceivable way.

Not to mention how the world of the average US citizen  has become less and less physical.  

We need to be moing, training, and keeping fit, and we need to be able to handle ourselves on a rudimentary level.  Martial arts kills all of these birds with one stone so to speak.

Where I run into a problem is with unearned rank.  A person who is handed a black belt but cannot proficiently fight in the style is like a high school graduate who cannot read.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Why must the two be mutually exclusive?
> 
> I think that everyone can benefit from the martial arts.  If for no other reason than this: there was a time when students would have schoolyard scrapes and such and by the time we all got out of high school, we all has a pretty good idea of what it was like to be in a fight.  When real trouble came our way, we knew what real trouble was.  We knew what it mean to hit and be hit.
> 
> Now, our lives are kept so sanitary that the divide between the average citizen and the street tough is so great that the average person is pretty much defenseless in every conceivable way.



Just my vision of things, Daniel.  I expect all my students to be at a certain level of physical fitness and mental acuity as a prerequisite to even studying with me.  In reality, all my students could be called athletes and most of them are quite sharp with significant professional accomplishments.  They don't study with me for some patting on the back as they don't need it.  

It may sound elitist, but that's really not what I'm trying to aim for at all.  One of my goals in teaching was to find training partners for myself, and frankly I'm not interested in running a fitness class.  There are many other available venues for that.  I'd like to be able to say that I offer instruction in classical karate with some aiki influences mixed in.  The environment is tough-minded and you're really going to have to work at it to keep up with your classmates since everyone is physically strong already.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Not elitist at all. 

I also agree with you about the pat on the back part.  Positive reinforcement is good and should be given, but not unearned praise.

Unearned praise and false confidence is where I tend to have the biggest non-monetary problem with McDojos.  This comes both in the form of 'good job' when the student it terrible and in the form of unearned belts. 

To clarify, a belt is a sign that the student knows the curriculum of the previous level and is reasonably proficient with it (a yellow belt's proficiency with white belt material will differe from that of a blackbelts's but should show the appropriate amount of proficiency for a beginner student of that level).

I would see a school such as yours as a hard core school.  Nothing wrong with that.  Every field of study has specialized and advanced schools.  Not every Steve Vai wannabe can get into Berkely, and not everyone can get into every martial arts school.  Truth be told, I wish that there were more schools such as yours.

Daniel


----------



## astrobiologist

Daniel Sullivan said:


> ...a belt is a sign that the student knows the curriculum of the previous level and is reasonably proficient with it...


 
And that's pretty much it.  Belts are not supposed to be status symbols outside of the training school.  I mean, it is completely okay to take pride in your accomplishments, but too many students of the martial arts are being led to believe that the goal of their training is a trophy, or a belt, or a plaque, or any other 'pat on the back' as you say.

The belt is a tool for an instructor and a student to track the student's progress through a martial arts curriculum.


----------



## jim777

Daniel Sullivan said:


> . Not every Steve Vai wannabe can get into Berkely, and not everyone can get into every martial arts school. Truth be told, I wish that there were more schools such as yours.
> 
> Daniel


 
Props for the Vai line  I was sitting here with my white Jem in hand when I read it :lol: (and that's my son Seamus with a Universe 7 string in my avatar)


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Those are beautiful guitars, Jim.  

I used to work for Guitar Center and spent my days trying to justify owning one just because it looked soooo cool.  I finally had to say no: I already owned more than one guitar and I knew that as cool as it looked, I'd always wind up back on my Gretsch (I've since sold the Gretsch and my JTM 45 Bluesbreaker to pay for braces for my kids).

I still remember being asked about the handle by a customer and telling him, "that is the monkey grip, and the ribbed cutout below the tremelo block is the lion's claw."  The guy had come in for a Les Paul and said that he hated Floyd Rose trems, but he was so taken with that guitar that he just *had* to play it.  It had a black krinkle finish and a mirrored pick guard.  One of the most visually striking guitars in the store.  Thng played like a dream.  He walked out with it too!

Daniel


----------



## granfire

dancingalone said:


> Just my vision of things, Daniel.  I expect all my students to be at a certain level of physical fitness and mental acuity as a prerequisite to even studying with me.  In reality, all my students could be called athletes and most of them are quite sharp with significant professional accomplishments.  They don't study with me for some patting on the back as they don't need it.
> 
> It may sound elitist, but that's really not what I'm trying to aim for at all.  One of my goals in teaching was to find training partners for myself, and frankly I'm not interested in running a fitness class.  There are many other available venues for that.  I'd like to be able to say that I offer instruction in classical karate with some aiki influences mixed in.  The environment is tough-minded and you're really going to have to work at it to keep up with your classmates since everyone is physically strong already.



Well, the world needs the Professors and the Kindergarden teachers. 

I can see where the Martial Arts can have a profound impact on youngsters, greatly helping their development. Will any of them be material for the students you desire? Not likely, but hopefully I have done my share to produce a successful person - in the widest sense of the meaning.

It's like reading and math, everybody profits from it, only a few become pulitzer prize winning authors or rocket scientists.


----------



## dancingalone

granfire said:


> Well, the world needs the Professors and the Kindergarden teachers.
> 
> I can see where the Martial Arts can have a profound impact on youngsters, greatly helping their development. Will any of them be material for the students you desire? Not likely, but hopefully I have done my share to produce a successful person - in the widest sense of the meaning.
> 
> It's like reading and math, everybody profits from it, only a few become pulitzer prize winning authors or rocket scientists.



I understand your position, Granfire.  Martial arts has become something more and unfortunately something less than the vocational warrior training it once was.  You see MA as an activity like perhaps soccer, where children may learn motor skills along with life skills like teamwork.  Self defense skills is something that may be learned incidentally along the way amidst the tournaments and in class fun.

It's a popular viewpoint and probably even the majority one in the United States today.  However, it's not mine.  Thanks for the reply.


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not elitist at all.
> 
> I also agree with you about the pat on the back part.  Positive reinforcement is good and should be given, but not unearned praise.
> 
> Unearned praise and false confidence is where I tend to have the biggest non-monetary problem with McDojos.  This comes both in the form of 'good job' when the student it terrible and in the form of unearned belts.
> 
> To clarify, a belt is a sign that the student knows the curriculum of the previous level and is reasonably proficient with it (a yellow belt's proficiency with white belt material will differe from that of a blackbelts's but should show the appropriate amount of proficiency for a beginner student of that level).
> 
> I would see a school such as yours as a hard core school.  Nothing wrong with that.  Every field of study has specialized and advanced schools.  Not every Steve Vai wannabe can get into Berkely, and not everyone can get into every martial arts school.  Truth be told, I wish that there were more schools such as yours.
> 
> Daniel



I agree for the most part with the sole caveat that I don't consider my school a hard core school at all.  We just consider the only logical aim of studying martial arts to be that of acquiring fighting skill.  Anything more than that is a modern addition and show be viewed with a jaundiced eye at best.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> I agree for the most part with the sole caveat that I don't consider my school a hard core school at all. We just consider the only logical aim of studying martial arts to be that of acquiring fighting skill. Anything more than that is a modern addition and show be viewed with a jaundiced eye at best.


True.  I find that the definition of hard core has really changed.  I tell people who have taken a taekwondo how I teach kendo and they think we're pretty rough.  They come to class and think that I'm a hardcore instructor.  I do not see myself that way.

Perhaps more serious school or more practical school would be more accurate?

Daniel


----------



## granfire

dancingalone said:


> I understand your position, Granfire.  Martial arts has become something more and unfortunately something less than the vocational warrior training it once was.  You see MA as an activity like perhaps soccer, where children may learn motor skills along with life skills like teamwork.  Self defense skills is something that may be learned incidentally along the way amidst the tournaments and in class fun.
> 
> It's a popular viewpoint and probably even the majority one in the United States today.  However, it's not mine.  Thanks for the reply.




Well, warriors need to adapt. Times change. While I see your point and value your stance, I feel that what I do, in the soft way of the art also serves the way of the warrior. No, most of the students in the Dojang I work out at won't take kindly to blood flowing and bruises. But there are more ways than one to engage and even win battles. Like the little kid, knee high to a grass hopper, NOT the most physical or athletic kind, walking up to a older and larger kid, pushing others around on the playground at McDonald's "I have you know I am a _blue_ belt in taekwondo and I think you should not do this" Anecdotal? Of course! But that is the stuff that makes us as instructors happy.

I don't think either approach is wrong, as long as the skill is taught and aquired. I can drive a car, but would wet my pants were I stuck in the Brickyard or in Daytona! The average person is not likely to need hardcore SD techniques. Add to that the necessity of functioning every day to do the day job....

The point is, one size does not fit all. Today's society has a number of major shortcomings, lack of physical activity and discipline being one, need for instant gratification another. Any single person can't stem this tide, takes team efford, on all fronts.


And last but not least, I am breakable and get less mendable as time goes on. I have to find smarter ways to fight than brute force alone. 

In short (I think that's what I wanted to say) we can happily coexist. I don't mind being the reserve troups, as to your elite fighters. You gotta have more than one warrior class to win the battle.


----------



## clfsean

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Those are beautiful guitars, Jim.
> 
> I used to work for Guitar Center and spent my days trying to justify owning one just because it looked soooo cool.  I finally had to say no: I already owned more than one guitar and I knew that as cool as it looked, I'd always wind up back on my Gretsch (I've since sold the Gretsch and my JTM 45 Bluesbreaker to pay for braces for my kids).
> 
> I still remember being asked about the handle by a customer and telling him, "that is the monkey grip, and the ribbed cutout below the tremelo block is the lion's claw."  The guy had come in for a Les Paul and said that he hated Floyd Rose trems, but he was so taken with that guitar that he just *had* to play it.  It had a black krinkle finish and a mirrored pick guard.  One of the most visually striking guitars in the store.  Thng played like a dream.  He walked out with it too!
> 
> Daniel



I never justified it... I just had to have one. So back in 1988 or '89 I bought one of the Hot Pink ones. Really wanted a green one, but they didn't have one. I traded it for a Les Paul about a year later. Hated myself ever since...


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## jim777

Well, you can find some of each for sale in the Jemsite classifieds if you ever wander over  The green ones were limited to just 777 copies first year (that's where my user name comes from) but the shocking pink ones only sold for a few years as well, making them pretty rare as well.
Anyway, back on topic


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## matt.m

You can have "Elitists and Reservists" easily in the same class.  Look a lot of what we do instills self-confidence and respect towards others.


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