# Knife Attack Myths



## MJS (Oct 13, 2009)

I came across this youtube clip and thought it was pretty interesting. Talks about some common myths and realities. 

***Warning: Some Graphic Content***


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## wade (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks, that was good.


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## still learning (Oct 13, 2009)

Hello,  Pretty mean stuffs to watch!

Practice knife attacks in the Class with rubber/wooden knifes...never, never, will be the same on the streets!

Escape if you can...

Aloha,   Class room training...very rare to be the same on the streets!


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## Langenschwert (Oct 14, 2009)

Great vid. For interested parties, Haffoc is the author of "Medieval and Rennaisance Dagger Techniques" by Paladin Press.

Best regards,

-Mark


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## MA-Caver (Oct 14, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello,  Pretty mean stuffs to watch!
> 
> Practice knife attacks in the Class with rubber/wooden knifes...never, never, will be the same on the streets!
> 
> ...



Agreed... the reason for that is because the attacker/knife wielder didn't take the same class. 

All the videos did show one thing... nearly all knife attacks are quick and sudden, in my experience no amount of awareness can _completely_ compensate that... it'll help but one of the only ways to prevent the knife is to SEE the knife and unfortunately (and fortunately for the defender who has one) the knife can be well hidden until brought to use. 

Still quick reaction and training can help lessen the impact and as shown there are defenses if you're quick enough to utilize them and your awareness can help minimize the impact.


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## Deaf Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

Long time a go I got a video called 'The Red Zone'. Their versions of disarming a knifer was very different from what I had been used to. It was more like wrestling. You learned to drag the opponents knife arm down with your weight and how to get the knife out of his hand.

Yes it was an interesting video. A good reason to learn 'Glockdo' and disarming.

Deaf


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## KenpoTex (Oct 14, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Long time a go I got a video called 'The Red Zone'. Their versions of disarming a knifer was very different from what I had been used to. It was more like wrestling. You learned to drag the opponents knife arm down with your weight and how to get the knife out of his hand.
> 
> Yes it was an interesting video. A good reason to learn 'Glockdo' and disarming.
> 
> Deaf


 
...and it works a helluva lot better than anything I've seen from a traditional system.


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## MJS (Oct 14, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Long time a go I got a video called 'The Red Zone'. Their versions of disarming a knifer was very different from what I had been used to. It was more like wrestling. You learned to drag the opponents knife arm down with your weight and how to get the knife out of his hand.
> 
> Yes it was an interesting video. A good reason to learn 'Glockdo' and disarming.
> 
> Deaf


 


KenpoTex said:


> ...and it works a helluva lot better than anything I've seen from a traditional system.


 
I have the Red Zone tape.  Havent seen the 2nd one, but it looks pretty good.  I'm in agreement...I like the guys ideas that he has.  Pretty much in line with Karl Tanswell and STAB.

Its funny...you train for a while, and you're exposed to many different things.  Then all of a sudden, you find something that really catches your eye and you're like, "WTF was I thinking, when I was doing those TMA disarms???"  Now, this isnt to say that all TMA disarms are bad, but my eyes were opened when I saw the way the FMAs deal with weapons, and then things like the RZ and STAB.  Things that make ya go hmmmm......


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## MJS (Oct 14, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, Pretty mean stuffs to watch!
> 
> Practice knife attacks in the Class with rubber/wooden knifes...never, never, will be the same on the streets!
> 
> ...


 
Oh I agree.  Certainly getting the hell away from the guy with the weapon is a good thing, but as it was shown on the clip, that isn't always the best solution.  All the more reason to have plan b...and c and d and e. 

As for the training blades...there are some good tools on the market today, such as the Shock knife and No Lie Blades, which seem to give a more realistic 'feel', no pun intended, to the attack.  That, coupled with a partner who is really going to give it some effort during the attack, and it should be clear whats going to work and whats not.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 15, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> ...and it works a helluva lot better than anything I've seen from a traditional system.



Glockdo does work pretty well........given the proper range and reaction time.


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## still learning (Oct 15, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Glockdo does work pretty well........given the proper range and reaction time.


 
Hello,  A study was done...a police officer comes out of his car..approach a suspect...

suspect pulls out a knife and charges the police officer ...withing 21 feet or less the suspect won with a knife to the police officer...(might be 27 feet? ...can't remember...)  repeated tests has proven the knifer wins just about 100% of the times...

Aloha,   ....If a police offer can not win?  ...think you can?


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## CuongNhuka (Oct 16, 2009)

Black Belt once did something similar with a Filipino stylist. Basicly, he was able to control what happened within 21 feet using a stick. So Glockdo is clearly of limited use. At that range, I'd probably just try to beat the guy to the punch, so to speak. It's amazing to see how people react when the guy they're charging, is charging back.


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## MJS (Oct 16, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, A study was done...a police officer comes out of his car..approach a suspect...
> 
> suspect pulls out a knife and charges the police officer ...withing 21 feet or less the suspect won with a knife to the police officer...(might be 27 feet? ...can't remember...) repeated tests has proven the knifer wins just about 100% of the times...
> 
> Aloha, ....If a police offer can not win? ...think you can?


 
The Tueller Drill is the Police study that was done.  Here are a few links:
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

Keep in mind, this was a study to determine whether or not the LEO could draw his gun, aim and shoot before the badguy with the knife gets to him.  Unless the citizen has a gun permit, chances are, we're going to be unarmed.  So in that case, unless its an ambush that we dont see, we should hopefully be ready, as our weapons, ie: our hands, feet, etc., are already ready, so to speak.  I do feel however, that when training knife defense in the dojo, that we should take it to the next level, meaning, instead of just working a stationary drill, where the badguy thrusts and you defend, start from a slight distance.  Doesnt have to be 21feet, but beyond arms reach.  I'll also mention again, the RedZone and STAB material is very interesting, and seems pretty effective.


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## K831 (Oct 16, 2009)

We run this drill with airsoft guns during force on force training. It's fun, eye opening and reveals a lot. Couple of things; Police officers carry their gun out in the open, strong side hip and so retention is an issue. Their holsters are a much slower draw than my IW Appendix carry rigs, or kydex strong side carry holster. Also, the more proficient you get at stepping off the x while drawing, the better chance you have a beating the knife attack. Lastly, a lot of guys I see run this drill are trying to make the first shot a full sighted shot in that time frame, we practice point shooting also, and so the first shot may be fired at 3/4 hip and continuous shots fired from there, so additional time is saved.


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## Deaf Smith (Oct 16, 2009)

Considering how close a knife attack usually is K831, I'd practice it from the retention position. I know one can it at 3 yards from that if they practice. And it's the fastest of all positions.

Deaf


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## Brian King (Oct 17, 2009)

I didnt take from observing these and various other clips of stabbings and other assaults that technique/method A is better than technique/method B. For every clip that shows technique B failing I am sure some you-tube expert can come up with some clip showing technique A failing just as badly. 

One lesson that I do take from these type of clips is the reinforcement of the idea that it is good to train that all physical conflicts are armed and multiple opponent, if it turns out not to be so, no harm was done but if it turns out to be so, then it is expected and prepared for. 

Another that is just as important I think is how often you will be on your own and in my opinion it is wise to train with that in mind. Likely others will not help and in fact may even hinder and that it is wise to learn how to do the work with that in mind. There are ways to get others to notice and to help. With the obvious examples of people walking by averting their gaze it would also be smart to train that you may have to render immediate trauma first aid to both yourself and perhaps your attacker(s) before rescue or aid shows up. 

Regards
Brian King


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## still learning (Oct 18, 2009)

Hello,  After reading and listen to many Knife fights and and training seminars...

The one thing that is common?  ....expect to get cut!    

Aloha,   ....what is the red stuffs all over your clothes?  ....kepsup?


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 20, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello,  A study was done...a police officer comes out of his car..approach a suspect...
> 
> suspect pulls out a knife and charges the police officer ...withing 21 feet or less the suspect won with a knife to the police officer...(might be 27 feet? ...can't remember...)  repeated tests has proven the knifer wins just about 100% of the times...
> 
> Aloha,   ....If a police offer can not win?  ...think you can?



That's precisely my point.  Guns require time and space to deploy.  A knifer inside a reactionary gap is in a superior position to an armed gunman IF the gunman has not yet put his gun in to use.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 20, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello,  After reading and listen to many Knife fights and and training seminars...
> 
> The one thing that is common?  ....expect to get cut!
> 
> Aloha,   ....what is the red stuffs all over your clothes?  ....kepsup?



I wouldn't actually say expect to get cut......there is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy.  It would be more accurate to say that is wise to be prepared for the possibility of getting cut and not be stopped by it.


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## arnisador (Oct 20, 2009)

I think that's an important point. I never say expect to cut; I say, a man with a knife is a 10th degree black belt and this is a very, very serious situation that you should avoid being in if at all possible.


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## tallgeese (Oct 20, 2009)

A fast note about the 21 foot rule.  It's true, studies have pretty much held up that it's a good indicator of how far a knifer can be and still get to you.

There are some drawbacks to the study.  It's been done with a stationary officer who wasn't allowed to move back, to the side, put cover between him and the knife, ect.  As mentioned above, run the drill with airsoft and you'll see that any of the aforementioned items will greatly ensure your ability of getting rounds off.

Second, the stances used assumed arms extended and front sights established like traditional line shooting.  Ideal, granted.  However, as mentioned, firing from unorthodox CQC distances will greatly enhance your survivability as well.  Clearing the holser and firing from the  hip is a great example.  Against a closing knife weilder, who by now is right on you is not a bad idea.  In fact, it's kind of a life saver.

Now, start combining and you'll see some good gun v. knife tactics being used. 

I'm not saying that the distance isn't relavent.  I'm just saying that there are grains of salt to be taken if one traines in a proper fashion.


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## tallgeese (Oct 20, 2009)

As to the getting cut and expectations go, I think the mental acceptance of trauma is critical in any martial endeavor.  Anything less sets you up mentally for failure when you do sustain damage.

Preparing for fighting on despite injury is built into the "know you'll get cut" philosophy.  It ensures that your mind knows this and is ready to respond accordingly.  It doesn't come as a surprise to the lizard brain and therefore, we can continue.  

You can see this in unarmed training.  One who never trains with contact in sparring suddenly gets hit and is completely off his game afterward.  He wasn't expecting the trauma, he hadn't mentally accepted that a fight would hurt him.  Now, the same guy, with the same skill set trains with some contact now and again.  He gets hit and has already built it into his paradigm that it's part of a fight.  He's not surprised, or put off, or staggering around in disbelief.  He's recovering and countering.  It prepares him.

Since we can't cut each other up with live blades on a regular basis, mental training in this area become key.  It's also a good place to use marker weapons, hard model training knives that can be felt and the new Shock knife.  This adds to the mental training aspect of being prepared to accept and move on thru injury.


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## still learning (Oct 20, 2009)

Hello, One thing that is alway mention...a good knife fighter...will never show the knife until it is too late...

One method we use when facing a knife holder (knife seen)...is face our palms or inside arm facing us...best to get cut in the back of the arms..than the inside (blood veins are located)  ..hands up in a protect position!

This is a defense knife prevention position we use many times in practice/and training....You want to experiment with this?

Aloha,


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## K831 (Oct 21, 2009)

tallgeese said:


> Since we can't cut each other up with live blades on a regular basis...



Just once in awhile!


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 23, 2009)

tallgeese said:


> A fast note about the 21 foot rule.  It's true, studies have pretty much held up that it's a good indicator of how far a knifer can be and still get to you.
> 
> There are some drawbacks to the study.  It's been done with a stationary officer who wasn't allowed to move back, to the side, put cover between him and the knife, ect.  As mentioned above, run the drill with airsoft and you'll see that any of the aforementioned items will greatly ensure your ability of getting rounds off.
> 
> ...



That's actually kind of the point of the study.......to dispel the 'I'd just pull my gun and shoot them' myth.  Other counter-measures are required to deal with a knifer inside the 21 foot gap than simply unholstering and throwing lead down range.

Even more to the point is that the average knifer isn't going to give you 21 feet of warning in the first place.  He's going to stab you from bad breath distance.......again, without other physical counter-measures to deflect the attack, a holstered gun is of little use at that moment.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 23, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, One thing that is alway mention...a good knife fighter...will never show the knife until it is too late...
> 
> One method we use when facing a knife holder (knife seen)...is face our palms or inside arm facing us...best to get cut in the back of the arms..than the inside (blood veins are located)  ..hands up in a protect position!
> 
> ...



Guro Marc Denny and Gabe Suarez made an excellent point in their series DLO knife series that the average knifing victim thinks he's actually getting punched initially, not knifed.

If we accept the fact that most of the time when someone goes to stab someone, the victim believes it's a punch getting thrown at them, what lessons can we derive and apply to our training?


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## Deaf Smith (Oct 23, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> If we accept the fact that most of the time when someone goes to stab someone, the victim believes it's a punch getting thrown at them, what lessons can we derive and apply to our training?


 
Well like Obama we can 'punch back twice as hard'.....

No, really I'm in a fun Krav Maga class as well as TKD now. The blocks they use are simple ones for roundhouse and strait punches. But since they don't like the 'shovel' punch (at least where Im at) they have some difficulty blocking low punches that come straight in and a bit upward (kind of like getting knifed.)

But I do like their two point blocks that really are a form of stop block that nullifies the other guy punch. One hand reaches out to stop the roundhouse punch and the other pushes on the shoulder of the punching arm the other guy has. Stops even a real hard punch from a strong man.

That might be the answer. The two point block would completely stop a simple knife attack.

Deaf


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## Inky (Oct 24, 2009)

One other factor i am surprised no one has mentioned. When deciding to draw a firearm you must also think of the surrounding area. I noticed in one of the first clips in that vid, the man seemed to be shooting wildly and i thought for sure he was going to shoot a few people other than his attacker. 

That vid was definitely an eye opener. Especially the unsuspecting surprise close range  attacks. 

O.O;


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## kior (Oct 26, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> But I do like their two point blocks that really are a form of stop block that nullifies the other guy punch. One hand reaches out to stop the roundhouse punch and the other pushes on the shoulder of the punching arm the other guy has. Stops even a real hard punch from a strong man.



Precisely due to the problem of not seeing a knife until it's too late the basic defences in krav against punches and against knife attacks are very similar in most cases so that you can perform the defence without having to worry if you're being punched or stabbed and changing technique accordingly. There's lots of other drills you'd do as well - attackers performing various attacks with concealed knives then going to stab unexpectedly or the other day we looked at common 'silhouettes', when someone is reaching for a concealed knife in various common hiding places and how to react accordingly.

I'm not really sure which block you're describing but in krav the standard '360 defence' against a circular attack would involve blocking the attacking hand whilst simultaneously counter attacking with a punch, palm strike, eye gouge etc. The counter wouldn't be directed to the shoulder.


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