# Problem w/ Entangled Wing



## KenpoRules (Jul 23, 2007)

Hi fellow Kenpoists,

I'm having problems executing Entangled Wing.  I originally learned the figure 4 grab/lock/takedown in Aikido training and my training partner is a proficient Aikido practitioner.  The following are the steps I take up to the point where it goes wrong for me.  

1. Right wrist grabbed and locked by opponent.  Opponent commences takedown by stepping into the flow.

2. I immediately step towards 10:30/11 to check his right knee with my right knee and I execute a 'stopping' check to his right forearm with my left hand.  At this point, I have temporarily stopped his technique until he adjusts to a path of less resistance.  Before he gets the chance, I...

3. Reach in to grab his left wrist and perform the upward right elbow movement which SHOULD place his left elbow over my right shoulder either locking or breaking that joint.  This is where it goes wrong for me.  Either I'm struggling to break his grip OR he ends up with his arm collapsed over my shoulder with is elbow facing up instead of down.  In other words, I can't break free and if I do, his left arm rotates clockwise instead of counterclock, resulting in non lock/break position.

I KNOW that the opponent's left arm MUST rotate counterclock in order to put his elbow into lock/break position.  I've tried grabbing his thumb joint to break his hold but it's awkward and clumsy to get to it.  

My opponent has tried both a thumbless and thumb grip.  I'm able to break out of the thumbless grip but his arm doesn't rotate into position.  When he uses a thumb grip, we end up struggling.

I really want to figure this out to make my Kenpo strong.

Respectfully,

Akira.


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## michaeledward (Jul 23, 2007)

Without seeing what you are doing, it will be difficult for my thoughts to be really effective. But, I may get lucky. 

As I read your post, I am looking at your 'Step 3'. I don't see any reference to the torque of this move. What I do is to a) grab his left hand, b) strike upward with my right elbow, c) twist counter clockwise for a left outward elbow strike. I think it is this counter-clockwise twist that will hyperextend the opponents arm. 

One point of concern I see is where you state, "left elbow over my right shoulder". This may be a challenge of the written word. The arm should hyperextend over the upper arm, not over the shoulder (I'll throw that elbow into your ear if put my arm over your shoulder).


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## SL4Drew (Jul 23, 2007)

KenpoRules said:


> Hi fellow Kenpoists,
> 
> I'm having problems executing Entangled Wing. I originally learned the figure 4 grab/lock/takedown in Aikido training and my training partner is a proficient Aikido practitioner. The following are the steps I take up to the point where it goes wrong for me.
> 
> ...


 
Based on your description, I am not sure you have stopped the assault sufficiently to allow you to retaliate. In other words, I think a grappler would still have you locked up. 

It sounds like your attacker stops somewhere after the lock but before the throw. First, if he has the lock properly applied, your ability to step will be severely minimized; thus, it will make the step unlikely. This is because the lock should control the your height for at least as long as it takes for the attacker to step in for the throw. Second, the left hand movement you describe I doubt would actually prevent the lock. A properly executed lock requires the attacker to anchor his elbows and pull your arm tight against his chest. So, I can't see how smacking/hitting/checking his right forearm will achieve anything of real value.

The way we train the attack is first from the flank. A flank attack is far more realistic. The attack begins with the attacker grabbing and yanking your arm diagonally. Your natural startle reflex will cause you to retrieve your arm, which puts it in a more desirable grappling position for your attacker. And if done hard enough, you will take a step with your right foot and first be pulled forward before regaining your upright posture as part of your startle reflex. But you have been destabilized and without a corrective mechanism, you will be easily thrown.

In non-Aikido rooted grappling, an attacker will usually use his left hand to strike your bicep. After all, he has to move his hand there so why not hit you and gain additional control over you. At this point, you've been surprised, pulled off balance, and struck--all before the lock is applied. Then the attacker locks you up and throws you.

If you try the attack under these parameters, you find a lot of what you may have thought would work won't. I recommend you try it. Because if you can defend against the attack executed this way, you can defend against it when executed less effectively, e.g. the putative attacker barely within range to grab your arm and trying to lock your arm without getting close to you (otherwise know as the attack seen at a lot of Kenpo schools). 

One way to successfully defend against this attack is after you have been grabbed, pulled, and your arm has reflexively returned, is to then execute a rising forearm index. This has the benefit for reassigning the muscles in your arm, making the bicep strike less potent and also positively aligns your arm preventing the lock from successfully being applied. From there you have Survived the Initial Assault, negated his ability to lock you with a Grappling Control Mechanism, properly aligned yourself, asserted control over the space, and put yourself in position to commence your retaliation.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 23, 2007)

Two things....(maybe more but I can't quite "see" what you are describing)

1) On your initial step when you get your base, disturb his.

2) are you using an upward elbow "movenemt" or an upward elbow strike.  When you hit them with that elbow they tend to be more compliant....or is that just pliant?


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## KenpoRules (Jul 23, 2007)

My understanding of Kenpo is that many of the techniques have to be executed before the attacker has fully applied their techniques.  With that said, I'd have to agree with your assessment of the 'putative' attacker scenario at most Kenpo schools.

You are absolutely right about the opponent 'anchoring' their elbows before the throw.  This is actually what's preventing me from breaking his grip on me, his left hand is hidden close against his chest and behind my locked wrist.  This is the main problem that I'm having...breaking the hold quickly enough to execute the counter before he has a chance to either drop his weight (controlling my height) or rotate into the throw. 

As far as I know,  every throw requires your body or some part of it to rotate circularly to perform a throw.  Hence the logic behind checking or providing some barricade to temporarily jam that rotational force (against his shoulder or chest if not the forearm).  With that being said, he can also easily redirect to a new direction and you're thrown.

At this point in my training, I'm just seeking to learn the "ideal" phase of various techniques.  I understand not all Kenpo techniques as written will work but from experience, a lot does, especially in a street fight and therefore, it's worth learning.  

Thank you for your constructive comments and ideas.  I found them very useful and I will definitely try to work this technique, as you suggested, from the flank position.

Akira


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## KenpoRules (Jul 23, 2007)

Thank you Mr. Edward for your response.  I will try the 'left elbow strike" movement to hyperextend his arm.   But I'm unsure what you mean by hyperextending his arm over my 'upper arm'.  I thought you have lock his arm over your right shoulder...an elbow strike once his arm is hyperextended over your shoulder/back is improbable...no?


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## KenpoRules (Jul 23, 2007)

Thank you Mr. Hawkins for the feedback.  I will add the elbow strike to the chest.  I recall this is found elsewhere in another technique...from experience, it is effective.


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## michaeledward (Jul 23, 2007)

KenpoRules said:


> Thank you Mr. Edward for your response. I will try the 'left elbow strike" movement to hyperextend his arm. *But I'm unsure what you mean by hyperextending his arm over my 'upper arm'*. I thought you have lock his arm over your right shoulder...an elbow strike once his arm is hyperextended over your shoulder/back is improbable...no?


 
Let us look at the rotation of the two parties involved.

the aggressor is attempting to rotate on a vertical circle; like a wheel rolling forward, from the aggressor's point of view.
the defender is attempting to rotate on a horizontal circle, counterclockwise from the defender's point of veiw.
Put yourself now in the view of the attacker. You have established the figure four lock, but not yet applied the full forward force required for the take down. Your left hand is probably palm down, at about the level of the pectoral muscle. The defender applies that horizontal rotation, extending your left hand and arm toward your 3 O'clock. Your left arm must move horizontally. This will straighten your elbow and begin to rotate your yoke (clockwise from the first person point of view). 

If the defender allows your horizontally extended left arm to slide up over his shoulder, you can bend your elbow and collapse into his ear or mastoid. The defender will lose the technique. Once the aggressor is able to bend the elbow, the technique is over. 


* * * * * * 

Said another way, 
imagine a forearm smothering block (no attacker), just your left arm horizontal at solar plexus level, palm down. 
imagine someone grabbing your left wrist, and yanking toward your right.
That is the action the defender is trying to create. 

* * * * * *

As Mr. Hawkins said, the right upward elbow strike is required. It is going to disrupt the attack, and allow you the space need to defend yourself. In our school, I think we strike the chin/face. This sometimes causes the defender to raise the attackers elbow over his shoulder*,* which I hope I have said, is a bad idea.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 23, 2007)

KenpoRules said:


> Thank you Mr. Hawkins for the feedback. I will add the elbow strike to the chest. I recall this is found elsewhere in another technique...from experience, it is effective.


 

Elbow strike to the jaw.  When you take the first step with your right leg try to effect a buckle to the inside of his right knee.  This will  A) Give you a base, B) disturb his base, C) drop his height and D) start his body turning towards his right which will help you extend his left arm.  Now with his body in this posture and his head dropping pivot hard as you A) upward elbow him in the jaw, B) turn his wrist palm up and C) pull his arm over your shoulder for the break all in ONE smooth motion.  During this moton you should also be back elbowing him with your left arm.  All of this occurs on one beat after you have disturbed his balance and hit him on the first beat.

P.S. The reason you need the arm over your shoulder is so that you have a fulcrum that is not dependent on the strength of a single muscle group.  Breaking the arm over your arm in this instance requires your shoulder muscle to be isolated against the weight of the opponents body and strength of your opponents arm and lat muscles.  Breaking it over your shoulder makes the fulcrum a solid object that does not bend.  It also allows you to use the straightening of your legs as the power source for the break with the legs being significantly stronger than the arms. Ju Jitsu 101 and Kenpo 101 as well.  Once you make contact with your upward elbow you should be able to roll his arm palm up which makes his elbow point downward.  It's a ROLLING movement..I repeat..ROLLING.  His arm should roll over your arm and shoulder into position with constant contact and pressure.  There should be no gap for him to have enough momentum to effect an elbow to your ear.  If there is a gap he can and should hit you!  Also you should be able to position his palm up which makes his elbow point down which ruins the structure he needs for an elbow of any kind from that position.  The issue I'm getting here is your initial grab his wrist and your not disturbing his balance while striking him with the upward elbow (thus making him pliant to be manipulated).  Start in the position of an over the shoulder arm bar and then move backwards into the position the technique starts in.  Then pay attention to where your hand is on his wrist.  Now make sure that when you do the technique your hand is in this position as soon as you touch him!  Hope this helps.


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## SL4Drew (Jul 23, 2007)

KenpoRules said:


> 2. I immediately step towards 10:30/11 to check his right knee with my right knee and I execute a 'stopping' check to his right forearm with my left hand. At this point, I have temporarily stopped his technique until he adjusts to a path of less resistance. Before he gets the chance, I...


 
If you want to practice with the assumption being the lock has been achieved, but the attacker opts not to throw you (a far less likely situation), then I would recommend attacking the right elbow with a heel palm as you step with the left into a neutral bow. This should misalign the lock, so he will be unable to apply pressure on your wrist. You can see for yourself by having someone apply the lock, step, and then press the attacker's elbow. Then have the attacker apply pressure to the lock. 

From there "breaking free" becomes much easier. Reach across and grab the attacker's left arm at the bend. You have now misaligned both arms, preventing him from directing pressure into the lock. I would also insert a vertical elbow to the body before an elbow to the chin. Without doing this, the chin is not a good target. But if you strike the solar plexus with the elbow, this will cause the attacker to step back, bend forward, and expose the chin.

I never learned this with the break you mentioned, and I can't see how it would work as you described it. I would also add if you really want to practice extricating yourself from the lock, then have your training partner actually apply it. To have the attacker simply hold your hand and not perform the lock won't teach you how to get out of it.


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## DavidCC (Jul 23, 2007)

Sorry to back-track, can I get a more detailed description of the attack, please?


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## michaeledward (Jul 23, 2007)

This is the way I start this attack. I believe this is a good way to enter into the ideal phase of the technique. 

You and I are facing each other in a natural stance. 

I execute a left outward handsword to your right bicep muscle. Your natural reaction is to contract the bicep muscle, lifting your right forearm. 

I cross grab your right wrist with my right hand, and lift your forearm while pushing my right hand toward your shoulder. 

I snake my left hand through the crook (or V) of your arm, and grab my own right wrist. This is referred to as a 'Figure Four' lock.

If I have this figure four lock in place, I would step with my right foot to the outside of your right foot, and push forward and down. You will go to the ground, hard and fast. 


Others may suggest other ways of entering this technique, that are perhaps more realistic to what one might find on the street. Incidentally, I do not love this technique. 

You may recognize it as 'Captured Leaves'. They are very similar.


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## KenpoRules (Jul 24, 2007)

Thank you Mr.Hawkins.  The rolling movement and not leaving a gap makes a lot of sense.  Hopefully, I'll be able to get together a partner in a few days to explore your suggestions.  I will report back as soon as I get a chance.

P.S. From the point where I grab his wrist and into the rolling movement, am I able to do this slowly to the point of the hyperextension/break over my shoulder or am I relying mostly on momentum to carry me through the technique.  I wanted to show it slow enough to demonstrate it works on mechanics alone. 

P.P.S. Also, do I grab the left wrist or hand?


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## KenpoRules (Jul 24, 2007)

SL4Drew said:


> If you want to practice with the assumption being the lock has been achieved, but the attacker opts not to throw you (a far less likely situation)...
> 
> I never learned this with the break you mentioned, and I can't see how it would work as you described it. I would also add if you really want to practice extricating yourself from the lock, then have your training partner actually apply it. To have the attacker simply hold your hand and not perform the lock won't teach you how to get out of it.



I think striking the solar plexus then the chin makes sense especially where I'm unable to disturb the opponent's base.

I hope I didn't give you the wrong impression that I'm practicing without the lock fully applied.  The lock is applied and the opponent is stepping in for the throw (right leg up the circle) or stepping back (left leg down the circle).  I get thrown only when I don't disturb his base which has happened several times because either I missed his right inner thigh/knee completely or didn't drop my weight into my neutral bow.  Following the Kyokyushin philosophy, we practice full speed/full power tempered with control.  Otherwise, like Mas Oyama use to say, what's the point?

My problem remains breaking free and pointing his elbow downwards; that's where the technique fails for me.  But hopefully with all the wonderful suggestions I've received so far, this will be quickly solved as well.


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## KenpoRules (Jul 24, 2007)

Thank you Mr. Edward.  I'm not too thrilled about this technique either, other than it teaches how to perform an over-the-shoulder arm bar.  Does anyone know if the grappling arts have counters for this lock/throw?  Maybe Mr.Hawkins perhaps?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 24, 2007)

KenpoRules said:


> Thank you Mr.Hawkins. The rolling movement and not leaving a gap makes a lot of sense. Hopefully, I'll be able to get together a partner in a few days to explore your suggestions. I will report back as soon as I get a chance.
> 
> P.S. *From the point where I grab his wrist and into the rolling movement, am I able to do this slowly to the point of the hyperextension/break over my shoulder or am I relying mostly on momentum to carry me through the technique. I wanted to show it slow enough to demonstrate it works on mechanics alone.*
> 
> P.P.S. Also, do I grab the left wrist or hand?


 
*Yes.  If you are doing the rolling correctly the momentum is not needed at all.  It is a mechanical manipulation and you can break the arm prior to getting to your shoulder as well....the shoulder just provides the point of maximum leverage.*

You grab the left wrist with your left hand.  Part of the way through the motion your left hand should feed their left wrist to your right hand.  Your right hand should be grabbing the bony part of the wrist slighlty overlapping where the hand begins.  In this way the flat hand acts as a paddle which gives you the handle and leverage to twist the wrist a multitude of ways for different moves.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 24, 2007)

KenpoRules said:


> Thank you Mr. Edward. *I'm not too thrilled about this technique either*, other than it teaches how to perform an over-the-shoulder arm bar. Does anyone know if the grappling arts have counters for this lock/throw? Maybe Mr.Hawkins perhaps?


 
*I love this technique...it is very Ju Jitsu oriented and has lots of variations available for lock-flows, throws, breaks, manipulations, set-ups.  It's nowhere near my favorite but it fits well.*

Most definitely.  One counter is if you are the one in the left arm bar.

1) Place your right hand on his right elbow and push forward or just maintain a forward pressure

2) use either leg to kick the back of his right knee

3) when his height drops move your left elbow towards your right and curl your wrist tpwards your face palm up. Anchor your elbows and have your right hand move to join your left in controlling his right wrist...keep his shoulder toruqed and his arm bent at the elbow.

If all of this is done nearly at the same time and correctly you'll end up getting your arm off of his shoulder, start to buckle his leg and have a shoulder lock/throw set up on his right shoulder.


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## KenpoRules (Jul 28, 2007)

Thank you Mr. Hawkins for both your patience and knowledge.  I will do my best to put your instruction into practice.

respectfully,
Akira


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