# What seperates "Martial" from "Art" today?



## Goldendragon7 (Apr 20, 2003)

With all the different perceptions or takes on all the various systems of the "Martial Arts" today, which all seem to rely on.... What, why, how, where, and so on....., what is the difference in todays world between who is "Martial" and who is "Art" or is there a difference?


----------



## RCastillo (Apr 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *With all the different perceptions or takes on all the various systems of the "Martial Arts" today, which all seem to rely on.... What, why, how, where, and so on....., what is the difference in todays world between who is "Martial" and who is "Art" or is there a difference?
> 
> *



I feel that those that really "push" an art, are concerned with tradition, no change, and really adhere to thier roots, like TKD.

My 2 cents. Thanks:asian:


----------



## Iron Dog (Apr 20, 2003)

To state the obvious, could it be that the "martial" person sees his or her training as a preparation for a possible event and there lies the art. The "art" or artist sees the training as perfection of self first and "martial" only as a secondary purpose?
I.D.


----------



## Zoran (Apr 21, 2003)

I sort of put Martial Artists in 3 categories:

The Martial *Artist* - A practioner who is more concerned with the asthetic or artistic side of the Martial Arts. Many of these types never explore or try to validate the self defense theories that they teach/learn. Then there are some that are more concerned with the intellectual side of it all. Really missing the point.

The *Martial* Artist - Now this practioner is more concerned with what works. With no concern for tradition, asthetics, principles of motion or style. Not always a bad thing though.

The *Martial Artist* - This is the balanced person. They may lean a little more towards one side or the other, but they still keep a certain balance of both sides. A person who is concerned with what works as well as the mental and/or artistic side of it.

Actually, there is one more type. It's the "I am so full of crap and I've got my head firmly embedded so far up my...um...Artist".   Anyway, it's the ones that give us all a bad rep.:shrug:


----------



## brianhunter (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *With all the different perceptions or takes on all the various systems of the "Martial Arts" today, which all seem to rely on.... What, why, how, where, and so on....., what is the difference in todays world between who is "Martial" and who is "Art" or is there a difference?
> 
> *



I think it is more up to the individual and what they want out of the art. Not comparing yourself to others and doing what you can do with your style. I used to have a very big problem with comparing myself to others and getting hung up over what they can do as opposed to me and in a sense missing my strengths because of this.

My definition (which differs from most Im sure) is maritial means "suitable for war" and art is a "means of expression" That is what as an individual I feel I am doing as a martial artist, expressing or training in something that is suitable for war. 

Many take martial to represent characteristics of the military to a certain extent yes I think martial reflects the military but many reasons for things in the military isnt learning or expressing. Much of the "training" you recieve in the military is to react to a command or order not to train or think.

A long way to get from point a to b I guess but it is up to the individual and what they want out of their style or training.  What id the persons definition of a martial artist, some definitions are better then others but still it is up to the individual.


----------



## jeffkyle (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *My definition (which differs from most Im sure) is Maritial means "suitable for war" *



You got that right!  :rofl:   Kind a little of both there, huh!  :rofl:


----------



## brianhunter (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *You got that right!  :rofl:   Kind a little of both there, huh!  :rofl: *



crap!!! my speil chequer wasnt working on that one! Maybe it was a fruedian slip!  Good eye


----------



## Kenpomachine (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> *I sort of put Martial Artists in 3 categories:
> 
> The Martial Artist - A practioner who is more concerned with the asthetic or artistic side of the Martial Arts. Many of these types never explore or try to validate the self defense theories that they teach/learn. Then there are some that are more concerned with the intellectual side of it all. Really missing the point.
> ...



I agree with your first three.

My fourth, though, would be the I do a martial art just for the sport (read TKD, judo and karate, which imo have forgotten all about art and all about martial except for a few exceptions).


----------



## Kenpomachine (Apr 21, 2003)

There's an article in my site about the art facet of martial arts...
The translation can be weird sometimes.

Here is the link
Short study of the artistic question in the martial arts and kenpo karate 
It's written by one of my fellow students (orange belt), who is also pursuing a degree in Art History.


----------



## theletch1 (Apr 21, 2003)

Zoran, your post saved me so much typing here.  I've seen guys totally destroy a technique in an effort to make it look artistic as well as guys that turn their noses at the concept of redirection or circular motion because it isn't hard core enough.  

Before I even began training in MA I was aware that a sense of balance, yin/yang if you will, was necessary and have worked toward that end. I will admit to leaning a little more to the martial side of the spectrum but always attempt to stay aware that the artist side of things augment the martial and vice versa.


----------



## ikenpo (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *With all the different perceptions or takes on all the various systems of the "Martial Arts" today, which all seem to rely on.... What, why, how, where, and so on....., what is the difference in todays world between who is "Martial" and who is "Art" or is there a difference?
> 
> *



Well,

Hasn't the environment changed from the days when people focused on the "martial" part almost exclusively? In the early, early stages there were pretty much only men. With few women and children. So that "yang" could be cultivated into a frenzy of testosterone. Additionally, people didn't know any better than to just beat the crap out of each other to get better at what they were doing. Also the system hadn't evolved... 

Today, women and kids are a reality for many that attempt to make a living teaching the arts and the monthly nut has to be met. So concessions are made to the "martial" aspects. Additionally, with the advent of greater technology and the passage of time people have come to learn that the dragon is as important as the tiger. Every instructor I've been blessed to train with has told me, "man, you don't want to do the crazy stuff we used to do..." that why my (fill in the blank) is in such bad shape now...so they learned and passed on that knowledge.

Bad backs, bad shins, calcium deposits on their arms and fists, or generally waking up in some form of traction from hard training years past..

I respect and appreciate all of that experience and the sacrifices that I've been able to benefit from. Of course, the road is long and bumpy so I've fallen a few times myself and have gained hands-on insight as well. 

The question is has the pendulum swung so far one way or the other, that there is not happy medium? 

Is there a difference. I think so. Go into a school and train, do a technique line, spar and see where they are. If they explain the concepts and principles behind the system, but pitty pat then they may be too caught up in the intellectual masterbation of Kenpo. If they are in a technique line cracking the ***** out of each other with no regard for breaking their "stone" or sparring every round like they need to kill someone with no "structured" learning taking place, then maybe they are on the other end and don't really "know the system", but have got the *** kickin part down.  

It's funny that you put the "confused" face at the end of your post..because we all know, that of all people, you are not...

just my thoughts, jb:asian:


----------



## ob2c (Apr 21, 2003)

I guess I see the two terms as inseperable. No matter how you train, or for what purpose (combat, survival, sport, self development, etc.), you are training an expression of a fighting skill. Consider painting. You could paint flowers (hippies doing Tai Chi), abstracts of disembodied people (American Kenpo), or a sepia of pigs in a wallow (grappling). It is still art. And if your 'canvas' is a serries of moves meant for fighting, it's a martial art- whether or not you understand or even realize it.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Apr 22, 2003)

Without a "war" or "battle" to go to...... the Marital Person has little to look forward to.  I mean really.......... How does he keep his skills honed in all reality and know what technique works or doesn't work if there are not testing grounds or battle fields to attend and exercise all our new  found skills........

:idunno:


----------



## Zoran (Apr 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Without a "war" or "battle" to go to...... the Marital Person has little to look forward to.  I mean really.......... How does he keep his skills honed in all reality and know what technique works or doesn't work if there are not testing grounds or battle fields to attend and exercise all our new  found skills........
> 
> :idunno: *



Practice on war protesters  

Well, I guess we would be called warriors or soldiers then. Although, there are those that have to use their training, mostly for their job or just plain old self-defense. It's very rare that any of us will need to take our art to the point that we train to, which is kill, maim or rip off their arm to beat them with it.

edited to remove typos


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Apr 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> *Practice on war protesters
> 
> Well, I guess if we would be called warriors or soldiers then. Although, there are those that have to use their training, mostly for their job or just plain old self-defense. It's very rare that any of us will need to take our art to the point that we train to, which is kill, maim or rip their arm to beat them with it.
> *



Zactly Z - Rex....... sometimes it gets downright depressin.  I just want to tear something apart.  LOL

:rofl:


----------



## Zoran (Apr 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Zactly Z - Rex....... sometimes it gets downright depressin.  I just want to tear something apart.  LOL
> 
> :rofl: *



Oh, that's just a dinosaur trait Mr Conatsarous.  

:rofl:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Apr 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> *Oh, that's just a dinosaur trait Mr Conatsarous.
> 
> :rofl: *



:rofl:    :rofl:    :rofl:    :rofl:    :rofl:    :rofl:    :rofl:


----------



## ikenpo (Apr 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Zactly Z - Rex....... sometimes it gets downright depressin.  I just want to tear something apart.  LOL
> 
> :rofl: *



Hey,

There's always next New Year's Eve... 

jb:asian:


----------



## Klondike93 (Apr 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> *Practice on war protesters  *




That's funny  :rofl: , and where can I sign up  


:asian:


----------



## Zujitsuka (Apr 23, 2003)

If a system/style doesn't incorporate at least medium contact and/or grappling with resisting opponents, it is not martial.  Sports like boxing or Judo are very martial because not everyone can bob, weave, or parry a blow, while others can't slap out after going airborne with a nice o-goshi.

It is the training method(s) - NOT the system/style.

If everything is kata or choreographed, it is more artistic expression rather than martial.

Sharp Phil has a good article on this topic on his site.  Click here:

http://www.philelmore.com/martial/martialout.htm


----------



## KenpoTess (Apr 23, 2003)

My answer to this thread is all in my Thesis,  which of course you have Mr. C.


----------



## Iron Dog (Apr 23, 2003)

IMO, Zujitsuka is right on the money. Of course it can be interpreted from the artistic view point as well, but he's right. Not everyone can do the martial applications. Some, but not many cannot, or will not do the artistic applications. Good post, I must say that at least the replies have been more of a scholarly bent than a posturing one...
Iron Dog


----------



## KanoLives (Apr 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *I guess I see the two terms as inseperable. No matter how you train, or for what purpose (combat, survival, sport, self development, etc.), you are training an expression of a fighting skill. Consider painting. You could paint flowers (hippies doing Tai Chi), abstracts of disembodied people (American Kenpo), or a sepia of pigs in a wallow (grappling). It is still art. And if your 'canvas' is a serries of moves meant for fighting, it's a martial art- whether or not you understand or even realize it. *




I like your take on the topic ob2c.


----------



## Kenpomachine (Apr 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> *If a system/style doesn't incorporate at least medium contact and/or grappling with resisting opponents, it is not martial.  Sports like boxing or Judo are very martial because not everyone can bob, weave, or parry a blow, while others can't slap out after going airborne with a nice o-goshi. *



They're not that martial, they have rules and they train to win an assault by following certain rules. It's goal is championships. Even soccer and rugby have contact, loads of them in their matches, but you won't think of them as martial arts, would you? Still, they're maybe closer to actually being martial than judo or boxing.

On the other side, martial is about SELF-PRESERVATION, no rules applied. Yes, there may be certain rules in a war, like the Geneva convention, but we've just recently had an example that they're not usually followed when in the heat of a battle. And if you ask me what will then differenciate it from a street fight or drunkards brawl, I'll say that it's the DISCIPLINE involved in the martial.


----------



## Zujitsuka (Apr 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *They're not that martial, they have rules and they train to win an assault by following certain rules. It's goal is championships. Even soccer and rugby have contact, loads of them in their matches, but you won't think of them as martial arts, would you? Still, they're maybe closer to actually being martial than judo or boxing.
> 
> On the other side, martial is about SELF-PRESERVATION, no rules applied. Yes, there may be certain rules in a war, like the Geneva convention, but we've just recently had an example that they're not usually followed when in the heat of a battle. And if you ask me what will then differenciate it from a street fight or drunkards brawl, I'll say that it's the DISCIPLINE involved in the martial. *



Dude, please....

This is a old, old debate.

Even though boxing and Judo are martial sports, they are A LOT rougher than most martial arts.

If you don't get the chance to practice certain techniques full power (eg. jab, cross, hook, uppercut, hip throws, shoulder throws, etc.), you don't know what will actually work in a violent confrontation.  I KNOW that I can stick my power jab in most people's face because I've been able to drill it agains uncooperative opponents - not ukes.  I KNOW that I can perform an uchi-mata throw against an uncooperative opponent because I've done it.

By the way, I'm not into boxing for any prize.  I do it to make sure that I'm getting some hard contact against skilled opposition.  I also play with a few Judo guys because they are constantly reminding me about the law of gravity as earth rushes up and smites me on my back.

To me, it is ALL about self-protection and using the proper methods to prepare me for a violent confrontation.

When is the last time you've been able to use a "real self defense technique" like an eye-poke or a chop to the wind-pipe full force against your training partner?



Also, don't you think that boxers and judoka know these "real self defense techniques" too?

I didn't think so...because you'll either run out of training partners pretty quickly or someone will seriously hurt you.

If you ever in your life doubt the effectiveness of Boxing or Judo, I encourage to to visit you local Judo dojo or Boxing gym.  They will be more than happy to enlighten you.

As far as rugby or football goes, those guys are use to impact, they know how to dish out some hurt, and they have "killer instinct" so they will probably be a formidable opponent.  They are use to the adrenaline rush while most martial artists aren't.

Before you make any judgments, at least qualify yourself by saying that you've been there and have done that first.  Don't assume anything.

Peace & blessings,


----------



## Zoran (Apr 24, 2003)

Both Kenpomachine and Zujitsuka make some valid points. 

Things like sport competition (be it grapppling, boxing, sparring, NHB and etc.), self defense techniques, and forms does not make a ballanced *Martial Art*. A Martial Arts primary focus should be realistic self-defense. The above mentioned tools should not be the primary focus, but used as training tools to help develop an individuals ability to defend themselves. Even "flash" techniques can be used to develop agility, which can come in handy when agility is needed to survive.

My opinion of key elements needed for a balanced Martial Art:


Primarily focuses on self defense from a realistic point of view. Should address this from all ranges of combat and environmental conditions.
Some form of light and hard sparring to develop the ability to deal with a moving and resisting opponent (this can include boxing, grappling, NHB, and etc.)
Using other tools to develop agility, spontinaity, speed, power, balance, timing and etc. This can include bag work, forms, SD techs, or other traditional and/or non-traditional drills.


----------



## Zujitsuka (Apr 24, 2003)

I feel you Zoran, but I was responding to the initial post of what separates 'martial' from 'art'.

Some styles have martial potential but are not necessarily martial.  For instance, it is just my opinion, but I don't really consider Ki Aikido a martial art because of the lack of working with resisting, uncooperative partners.  Keeping it real, the average person will not let you walk up to them and grab their wrist.  However, if it is set up with atemi, now you're talking.

Also, the Tai Chi that I see senior citizens doing in concert in the park near job in the morning has martial potential, but is not necesarilly a martial art.

Again, it is all about that necessary ingredient (sine qua non) - sparring against resisting opponents.

Jigoro Kano remindend traditional Jujitsuka about this more than a hundred years ago.  Bruce Lee reminded us again in the 60s and 70s.  More recently, the Gracies gave martial artists a wake up call.

We're being constantly reminded about putting the martial back into the martial arts.

"Ya'll musta forgot!" - Roy Jones, Jr. (Pound-for-Pound best pro boxer in the world)


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> *I sort of put Martial Artists in 3 categories:
> 
> The Martial Artist - A practioner who is more concerned with the asthetic or artistic side of the Martial Arts. Many of these types never explore or try to validate the self defense theories that they teach/learn. Then there are some that are more concerned with the intellectual side of it all. Really missing the point.
> ...



Well, you just saved me the effort of typing all that out. Thank you for that, I couldn't agree more!

--Dave


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *crap!!! my speil chequer wasnt working on that one! Maybe it was a fruedian slip!  Good eye *



It wasn't working on that one either....

--Dave

:rofl: :rofl:


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Without a "war" or "battle" to go to...... the Marital Person has little to look forward to.  I mean really.......... How does he keep his skills honed in all reality and know what technique works or doesn't work if there are not testing grounds or battle fields to attend and exercise all our new  found skills........
> 
> :idunno: *



I don't know about that Mr. C, if I got martial, in my marital space, my missus would kick my ***.

Another of those fruedian slips, eh?

--Dave

:rofl:


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 25, 2003)

Truthfully, all any of us is trying to do is to deal with some form of violence, that some lowlife is attempting to bring upon us or our family, or even someone that we can see needs our help.

If our art/ style doesn't give us the knowledge or the options that we need, to deal with these acts of violence, then it is more *ART* than martial. 

If on the other hand we deal with said violence, far too decisively, ie a guy tries to steal your kids icecream, and you kill him, then I think we have gone way too *MARTIAL* .

If we can deal with the violence decisively, without losing our cool. If we can do it by using only the reasonable or required amount of force. If we can deal with the attack, and then go home to our families knowing in our hearts that we did only that which we *HAD* to do, without anger or rage. Then I believe that we are trained in a *MARTIAL ART!* 

I have never believed that training in martial arts will make me a better fighter. What I do believe is that it will give me a greater array of options. The way I train, will decide how I get to use those options. The more options I have, the better my chance of survival, this decides if my art/style is a martial art. My preparedness, to use these options is what determines if I am a Martial Artist or not.

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## Zujitsuka (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *...I have never believed that training in martial arts will make me a better fighter. What I do believe is that it will give me a greater array of options. THE WAY I TRAIN, will decide how I get to use those options. The more options I have, the better my chance of survival, this decides if my art/style is a martial art. My preparedness, to use these options is what determines if I am a Martial Artist or not.
> 
> --Dave
> ...



The caps are mine to highligt this man's wisdom.

Peace & blessings,


----------



## Kalicombat (Apr 25, 2003)

My perspective has always been that I train to handle my BIZZNESS when the time comes. I started in Isshinryu when I was 9 because I was a fat kid, with a speach impediment, and afraid of my own shadow. I was an easy target for ridicule and harrassment.  I was pretty antisocial, and consumed with making people pay for using me as the brunt of their jokes.  I didnt know about the "art" side of the house, and still not real familiar with it, 28 years later.  I commend those that can knockout a musical form with perfection, and those that seek some kind of enlightenment through their "journey", but I walk a different path.  My friends and family, those that know me best, have always said that I am a soldier with no war.  I prefer to think of it as a soldier ready for war. I dont seek altercation, but when it presents itself, I usually jump right in. Having two kids, a wife, and a life, now has simmered the fires some, but there is still an amber glowing in there.  As far as art, I display it proudly on my shoudlers, back, chest, and rib cage. 

Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> *The caps are mine to highligt this man's wisdom.
> 
> Peace & blessings, *



Thank you sir.

:asian:


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> *My perspective has always been that I train to handle my BIZZNESS when the time comes. I started in Isshinryu when I was 9 because I was a fat kid, with a speach impediment, and afraid of my own shadow. I was an easy target for ridicule and harrassment.  I was pretty antisocial, and consumed with making people pay for using me as the brunt of their jokes.  I didnt know about the "art" side of the house, and still not real familiar with it, 28 years later.  I commend those that can knockout a musical form with perfection, and those that seek some kind of enlightenment through their "journey", but I walk a different path.  My friends and family, those that know me best, have always said that I am a soldier with no war.  I prefer to think of it as a soldier ready for war. I dont seek altercation, but when it presents itself, I usually jump right in. Having two kids, a wife, and a life, now has simmered the fires some, but there is still an amber glowing in there.  As far as art, I display it proudly on my shoudlers, back, chest, and rib cage.
> 
> Just my opinion,
> Gary Catherman *



For a minute there I thought you were singing the song that used to be mine. I wasn't fat and never had the speech impediment, but I too used to jump at shadows. I used to get picked on a lot when I was young, but eventually found that I had an ability to absorb pain in such a way that I could look tough. You know, the old punch in the mouth where you just whip your head back to face the guy and say something like, "Is that the best you got, little man?". Then I started learning how to fight. At the ripe old age of 23 I started serious training in the arts. I fully understand the line about being a soldier without a war, that was me until about 3 years ago.

At the age of 26 I got really sick and nearly died, I took up American Kenpo, as soon as I was well enough to train. I also developed an attitude of "The World owes me something!"
My life turned into a bucket of crap! But it wasn't my fault, it had to be everyone elses fault. It was the fact that there were too many foreigners here, it was because of our government, it was my wife it was everything but me!
Around 3 or 4 years ago I met my instructor in Ryukyu Kempo, and I would have to say he is the only man I have ever met that I am in total awe of.
The first thing I came to learn was, to change the way I live, I had to change the way I think! I learnt the truth behind the phrase, "Respect all, Fear none!"
Respect begins inside, now I no longer practise *Self Defense* , I practise *Life Defense* .

I'm not saying my way is right for you, but I am saying it might be worth a look. 
Either way, have a great life. You only get one so you should make the most of it!

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Apr 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _*
> I'm not saying my way is right for you, but I am saying it might be worth a look.   Either way, have a great life. You only get one so you should make the most of it!   --Dave   :asian:
> *



As the saying goes.... "There are many roads that lead to Rome".  

What it doesn't say, is that along the way there are many fine restaurants that serve food, some are unique and have an exceptional specialty and flair, yet others just serve typical food.  Each serve it's purpose, but we all have different likes and dislikes about each establishment.  You will tend to revisit or frequent those that meet your needs and fancy.

:asian:


----------



## Kenpomachine (Apr 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> *Dude, please....
> 
> This is a old, old debate.
> ...


Which maybe means they have a problem in their training?  


> *If you don't get the chance to practice certain techniques full power (eg. jab, cross, hook, uppercut, hip throws, shoulder throws, etc.), you don't know what will actually work in a violent confrontation.  I KNOW that I can stick my power jab in most people's face because I've been able to drill it agains uncooperative opponents - not ukes.  I KNOW that I can perform an uchi-mata throw against an uncooperative opponent because I've done it.*


Again, what is it that makes you think that you can train these in a martial art full power? You have protections to train full power against a person and bags, and pads...


> *By the way, I'm not into boxing for any prize.  I do it to make sure that I'm getting some hard contact against skilled opposition.  I also play with a few Judo guys because they are constantly reminding me about the law of gravity as earth rushes up and smites me on my back.*


No, I haven't done it a lot, but I've done. But they have theire rules and if you don't follow them they can have problems too.


> *To me, it is ALL about self-protection and using the proper methods to prepare me for a violent confrontation.*


Agreed.


> *When is the last time you've been able to use a "real self defense technique" like an eye-poke or a chop to the wind-pipe full force against your training partner?*


I'm not sure I'll used them in the street if I can avoid it. Never got into touble in the street 



> *Also, don't you think that boxers and judoka know these "real self defense techniques" too?*



You think that's all the self-defense techniques, really? By the way, I didn't talked about self defense, but self preservation in a war when refereing to martial. 



> *Before you make any judgments, at least qualify yourself by saying that you've been there and have done that first.  Don't assume anything.*



I've played football (learnt front kick there), and many other sports, and I've practiced a "martial sport" before. Whose assuming what?

Please, don't read between lines. Sports are not bad, martial is not bad, and art is not bad. Just I want to make sure that there is the martial and the art side in what I'm training. And yes, we hit in the self defense, though not hard when hitting vital points or the face.

:asian:


----------



## Zujitsuka (Apr 26, 2003)

KenpoMachine, refer to GoldenDragon's initial post of what separates 'martial' from 'art'.

You and I actually agree that a 'martial art system' should address other things besides 'fighting' (like ethics, social responsibility, and such).

Folks have to be honest about what they are calling 'martial' though.  Because if they aren't feeling adrenaline rushes during the martial portions of their training, and/or are not being attacked with unrehearsed attacks, that is not really 'martial'.  It is just kata - art.  Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but kata isn't fighting because fights aren't predictable.  Bags, ukes, and boards don't hit you back.


----------



## KanoLives (Apr 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> *Folks have to be honest about what they are calling 'martial' though.  Because if they aren't feeling adrenaline rushes during the martial portions of their training, and/or are not being attacked with unrehearsed attacks, that is not really 'martial'.  It is just kata - art.  Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but kata isn't fighting because fights aren't predictable.  Bags, ukes, and boards don't hit you back. *



You have to look at kata as a way to train in fluid body motion, fluid strike combos, breathing technique, and learning good balance. Cause we all know that without good balance or any of these aspects learned through kata you don't stand a chance in a real life situation. There's more to kata then just looking good and going through the motions. Anyone can do that. Now if you do it and take these things out of it as training then you are a more well blanced fighter than the next guy. Kata is part art but it is also part training and I hope no one forgets that.

:asian:


----------



## Kenpomachine (Apr 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> *KenpoMachine, refer to GoldenDragon's initial post of what separates 'martial' from 'art'.
> 
> You and I actually agree that a 'martial art system' should address other things besides 'fighting' (like ethics, social responsibility, and such).*



Well, and I said in a previous post that Zoran stated the difference between martial and art quite well.



> *Folks have to be honest about what they are calling 'martial' though.  Because if they aren't feeling adrenaline rushes during the martial portions of their training, and/or are not being attacked with unrehearsed attacks, that is not really 'martial'.  It is just kata - art.  Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but kata isn't fighting because fights aren't predictable.  Bags, ukes, and boards don't hit you back. *



Ukes should try to hit you back now and then and are encouraged to do so specially when you're not doing good and are just slapping them.
 Now, it depends on how you train, doesn't it? 

Besides what ChineseKenpoAl said about kata (don't forget self defense techniques in short 3 and long3-7), we train to feel the adrenaline rush, with technique lines (many variations in here), free attacks from behind, being reminded now and then to throw the attack with different intensities, or even at different heights, and not stopping when someone forgets the attack to a technique and then attacks from the other side...

So adding to this martial side the aesthetics, you have the martial art. But you have to have both in a martial art. And though soccer is quite martial (it has a strategy, two teams fighting to win over the other and lots of contact, which is something that is not present in some modern day wars), I still wouldn't call it a martial art.


----------



## Zujitsuka (Apr 26, 2003)

Kata is great. It is like shadowboxing where one can work on perfecting their technique.  The problem with a lot of guys though is this:  They are in great shape; they have excellenent technique; BUT they are not able to determine when to use a certain technique and/or they cannot  put them together in combinations.

For instance, if someone is trying to kick the stuffing out of you, don't try to grab their wrist to apply a kote gaeshi - you have to set that one up with some strikes first.

So, I see that some people get an adrenaline rush from going through techniques with an uke, huh?  If that is the case, please lay of the coffee because you're a nervous wreck!  ;-)

You pretty much know what an uke is going to do.  He/she is going to be attacking you with a set group of techniques that you're expecting.

Sparring/randori is in my estimation what makes something is truly martial or not.  I see guys and gals look like superstars on the bag, on the focus pads, and when shadowboxing, but once they spar, they fall to pieces.  This pretty much happens to everyone at first but with experience, you learn how to flow and put together combinations.  You really can't develop that skill unless you spar.  Also, sparring develops mental toughness.  A lot of guys who never sparred full contact think that they are psychologically prepared - until they get hit.

One can go through as many choreographed sequences as they want but if you never spar or roll on the mat, you're just doing a workout that incorporates martial techniques - ala Tae Bo.


----------



## Zoran (Apr 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> *
> Sparring/randori is in my estimation what makes something is truly martial or not.  I see guys and gals look like superstars on the bag, on the focus pads, and when shadowboxing, but once they spar, they fall to pieces.  This pretty much happens to everyone at first but with experience, you learn how to flow and put together combinations.  You really can't develop that skill unless you spar.  Also, sparring develops mental toughness.  A lot of guys who never sparred full contact think that they are psychologically prepared - until they get hit.
> *



The reverse can also be true. Sparring can give you a false sense of confidence. As sparring is done within the confines of rules and you tend to spar people who react as trained sparrers, it does not prepare you, just on it's own, for the real world. Hence, why I posted that a Martial Art needs to be balanced.

Although I don't believe that you are advocating that sparring is the most important part of MA training, just that some schools tend to lack this important portion of our training.

Another Kenpoist once said that our self-defense training is like trying to learn how to swim in 2 feet of water. Non of us know how we'll react when you get thrown into the deep end until it happens. But on the other hand, we are better off than those who never learned how to swim, or learned without stepping into the water.


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> *Kata is great. It is like shadowboxing where one can work on perfecting their technique.  The problem with a lot of guys though is this:  They are in great shape; they have excellenent technique; BUT they are not able to determine when to use a certain technique and/or they cannot  put them together in combinations.
> 
> For instance, if someone is trying to kick the stuffing out of you, don't try to grab their wrist to apply a kote gaeshi - you have to set that one up with some strikes first.
> ...




Though I agree with most everything you said, there is one point that I feel must be addressed.
Where sparring works as a true training tool for boxers, judoka and those others that train in sport techniques, it cannot teach *Martial* Artists to fight. All it really does is teach them to spar, ie. fight using restricted techniques, with limited contact. Even so called Full Contact Karateka, don't strike to the face.
It was my big complaint when learning American Kenpo, that my instructor wanted us to point spar. When boxers spar, they box.
When Judoka spar, they get on the mat and do Judo. As I said before it is the same for all sport based Combat systems. So why if I am learning real self defense skills, must I get it on with some one in a tip tap manner?

Of course I realise that going out and getting into a real fight, kind of defeats the purpose of training for self defense, but what about reality based training scenarios?

In our school, we wear light padding, and helmets with face guards, we turn the main lights off and turn the disco type lights on. We have the music up so loud it is hard to think, and before all this we have done so many drills and push ups and sit ups, it is just like being under adrenal stress. 

Then we fight. One person is chosen as the agressor, he/ she does his/ her thing and it is on. All the while our instructor is watching and waiting to see what we are going to do. If we don't play real, we have to play with him.(scares me just thinking about it! )

Just my $0.02 worth.

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## Kenpomachine (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> *So, I see that some people get an adrenaline rush from going through techniques with an uke, huh?  If that is the case, please lay of the coffee because you're a nervous wreck!  ;-)*



:rofl: :rofl: 
Not just techniques, but technique lines... there's a difference


----------

