# Hitting Hard to Learn a Lesson



## RRouuselot (Dec 7, 2004)

Lately there has been some debate over, shall we say, straightforward comments made towards others about their seriousness or lack of in training. From my perspective any comments made to enlighten the student about an aspect of their training is beneficial..and sometimes not pleasant. 

        If I take this into the context of actually training it might be easier for me to explain.



 When training/ full contact sparring with kobudo weapons we do not use the rubbery kind with all the foam on them, but real wood weapons. This serves several purposes. 1) is so the student will gain respect for the weapon, 2) its proper use, 3) teaches the end result of using it on an enemy or accidentally on ones self. 

 When using a Bo, Jo, Tonfa or other weapon when an opponent strikes and their attack goes un-blocked the results are very quickly noted that a mistake was made and the motivation for correcting it is increased. The lesson is learned quickly and clearly with no doubt as to whether a mistake was made or not and the result is often not very unpleasant but extremely practical. Granted this may not be the "PC" way and probably goes against the grain of people that think MAs should have their hands held every step along the path.......However, teaching in the above fashion smacks of Zen and little or no conversation needed.  



 Conversely, when using rubba-chucks and similar toys in sparring if mistakes are made there is no motivation to correct the errors of your ways and repeated mistakes are common, often go unchecked or possibly arent even considered to be mistakes at all. No lesson is learned and bad habits are quickly formed, repeated and then passed on.Teaching students in this fashion can only do them a disservice in the future.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 7, 2004)

Cracked skulls and broken collarbones don't teach many lessons either.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 7, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Cracked skulls and broken collarbones don't teach many lessons either.


   hasn't happend yet.....we usually call that using "control

    I take it by your sarcastic remark you disagree.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 7, 2004)

Control in my book means hitting hard and on the mark.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 7, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Control in my book means hitting hard and on the mark.


 I see. So when you say:  	_Cracked skulls and broken collarbones don't teach many lessons either.
_You are saying that is where we are hitting? I am just wondering how you can even presume to know  such things.....have you been in my dojo before?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 7, 2004)

Someone is going to get hit there sooner or later if you spar full speed with weapons. And on his/her hands, knees, ribs, groin etc.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 7, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Someone is going to get hit there sooner or later if you spar full speed with weapons. And on his/her hands, knees, ribs, groin etc.


 So does this mean you disagree?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 7, 2004)

Someone just dinged me a bad rep point for a previous post. If I understand this correctly you regularly spar full speed, full contact with wooden weapons. That IMNSHO is a very good way to discover that broken bones hurt and the human body is fragile. I don't need to find that out first hand.

An even better alternative would be to go to the Bronx and scream something like "you're all inbred". Then you'd have some serious fighting to do. Only problem is, once you go to extremes like that, will the benefits really outweigh the eventual loss of practicing students?

Self defense to me also means something that allows you to take care of your body up to old age.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 7, 2004)

This thread seems to have run it's course.  The sparring issue now being addressed is off topic, but far more interesting, if it applies to what I think it does.  

 I assume RRouuselot's post regarding training had to do with how people learn, and as it applies to this thread, i.e. that when confronted with reality, some chose to learn from it, while other's prefer a more indirect method.  One is often more painful than the other.  I thought it was a very interesting analogy if intended, especially when you deal with "control", "honesty", "truth", etc., where does "respect for the student", "politeness", "manners", or "concern for how you are perceived" come in?  Especially when how on is perceived may limit the amount of "truth" or "learning" that one's audience can experience?

 I guess I am saying that there is a place for brutal honesty, in-person, between friends, etc.  Not necessarily to the point of cruelty or fanning the flames of a war.  Does it belong here, (yes), ah, but in what format?  Frequently both parties are being honest (as they know it), and neither can compromise due to what they "know".  Remember this is a Board for the "Friendly Discussion of the Martial Arts".

 Seriously, you need to take it to PM or email, or use the ignore feature if you know all you end up doing is battling with another member.  That way you can contribute to a thread, and not get pissed off.  Let the other person show themselves for what they are, while you are just part of the original topic.

 Just some random thoughts from an old guy!

 -Michael


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## heretic888 (Dec 7, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> When using a Bo, Jo, Tonfa or other weapon when an opponent strikes and their attack goes un-blocked the results are very quickly noted that a mistake was made and the motivation for correcting it is increased. The lesson is learned quickly and clearly with no doubt as to whether a mistake was made or not and the result is often not very unpleasant but extremely practical. Granted this may not be the "PC" way and probably goes against the grain of people that think MAs should have their hands held every step along the path.......However, teaching in the above fashion smacks of Zen and little or no conversation needed.
> 
> Conversely, when using rubba-chucks and similar toys in sparring if mistakes are made there is no motivation to correct the errors of your ways and repeated mistakes are common, often go unchecked or possibly arent even considered to be mistakes at all. No lesson is learned and bad habits are quickly formed, repeated and then passed on.Teaching students in this fashion can only do them a disservice in the future.



Okay, I'll tell you my vantagepoint based on the experience I've had...

"Sparring" can inculcate bad habits. Plain and simple.

I have personally found that what works in "sparring" --- even "full-contact" --- may not necessarily work in a real-life confrontation. There are certain things you can get away with, certain things that "work" against sparring partners and friends, that can get you get you killed or mangled on the street or in the bar.

Sure, if the student got smacked down during "sparring" then he probably did make a mistake. He probably messed up. But, just because you succeeded in your "sparring" does not _equally_ mean you did something in a mistaken, messed up way that wouldn't truly work if the metal goes to the metal.

I read on here that Soke stopped teaching something like "sparring" because of the bad habits Westerners were inculcating in their taijutsu. From my experience in kung-fu, I can say this is a definate reality. People were tossed into sparring without any real grasp of the fundamentals, and it led to an emphasis on developing the skills that work in the "mat" or "ring" --- rather then internalizing the essential forms and movement strategies.

In other words, sparring ended up being very bad for their kung fu.

Hey, and that's not even getting into the "ego contests" that often arise around sparring-based practices. But, that's a whole nudder story right there...

Just my opinions, of course.  :asian:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 7, 2004)

I agree with heretic. But let's not forget that there is room for quite a lot of ego-attributed problems in regular Bujinkan training as well. For instance, recently a lot of people have been very fond of hitting me in the ribs or on the side of the head to point out openings - which is fine and dandy in some circumstances, but what the HELL is the point of doing so once I've already taken you down/out??? It's totally OK for you to hit me once I've already ripped out your larynx, snapped your neck or elbowed you in the face, but what does it prove? In my opinion, nothing more that some Bujinkan members are getting blind to the fact that getting hit affects you! 

All this, and I still haven't mentioned the newly formed "as-soon-as-it-starts-to-hurt-the-other-guy's-using-strength"-mafia...


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## Kreth (Dec 7, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I agree with heretic. But let's not forget that there is room for quite a lot of ego-attributed problems in regular Bujinkan training as well.


Agreed... and some of it comes from the mega-dans, unfortunately... But, I think sparring is valuable, if it is strictly controlled (especially for beginners), and not a flat-out brawl.


> All this, and I still haven't mentioned the newly formed "as-soon-as-it-starts-to-hurt-the-other-guy's-using-strength"-mafia...


I call this Bujinkan Tai Chi... There was a dojo in NYC known for this, so much so that I avoided training with any of their students at seminars...

And it appears I'm guilty of contributing to thread drift. This would be a good discussion, I suggest starting a new thread for it.

Jeff


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## RRouuselot (Dec 7, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Someone just dinged me a bad rep point for a previous post. If I understand this correctly you regularly spar full speed, full contact with wooden weapons. That IMNSHO is a very good way to discover that broken bones hurt and the human body is fragile. I don't need to find that out first hand.
> 
> An even better alternative would be to go to the Bronx and scream something like "you're all inbred". Then you'd have some serious fighting to do. Only problem is, once you go to extremes like that, will the benefits really outweigh the eventual loss of practicing students?
> 
> Self defense to me also means something that allows you to take care of your body up to old age.


 You obviously missed the point.


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## Shizen Shigoku (Dec 7, 2004)

Yeah, we need to keep the discussions about getting-hit-hard-to-learn-a-lesson for real and metaphorically, separate, so people don't get confused.

This thread is about the metaphoric use (hitting hard with words); if a moderator or admin. is able to split the rest into a new thread about hard contact training, that would be very appreciated.

:asian:


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## Don Roley (Dec 8, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> When using a Bo, Jo, Tonfa or other weapon when an opponent strikes and their attack goes un-blocked the results are very quickly noted that a mistake was made and the motivation for correcting it is increased. The lesson is learned quickly and clearly with no doubt as to whether a mistake was made or not and the result is often not very unpleasant but extremely practical. Granted this may not be the "PC" way and probably goes against the grain of people that think MAs should have their hands held every step along the path.......However, teaching in the above fashion smacks of Zen and little or no conversation needed.
> 
> 
> 
> Conversely, when using rubba-chucks and similar toys in sparring if mistakes are made there is no motivation to correct the errors of your ways and repeated mistakes are common, often go unchecked or possibly arent even considered to be mistakes at all. No lesson is learned and bad habits are quickly formed, repeated and then passed on.Teaching students in this fashion can only do them a disservice in the future.



Just as an aside, has anyone noticed that many of the worst injuries seem to come from the "soft and fluffy" type of dojos? I have seen some bad injuries this way in the Bujinkan. My current teacher has had people state publically that they were scared to come back a second time for fear of injury, yet the worse injuries I have seen have not kept the students from coming back to the next class. By comparisson, I have seen injuries that have made people go to the hospital in dojos that have a reputation for doing things nice, soft and easy.

I think there needs to be an understanding that people can get hurt in training that some dojos don't emphisize. People drop their guard and 


Bam

They get hurt.

When I first got to Japan, I had the habit of not keeping my guard up with my rear hand. My current teacher started slapping me in the face whenever he had the chance. It hurt my ego a hell of a lot worse than it injuried my body, but according to him, within three months I had stopped the bad habits that had been let go by my old instructor. Of course, my old instructor in the states was dependent on teaching to put food on the table and took the task of always holding his students hand when they didn't do very well.

Honestly, there have been times when I was afraid I was going to die if I fouled up during training in Japan. Not only did that not happen, but when the brown fecal matter hit the fan in real life I was able to keep my wits about me. Of course, this is all dependent on a teacher knowing your limits and pushing you as far as you could handle and no farther. Difficult to do in some dojos and in the lawyer friendly culture of North America.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 8, 2004)

I kind had a feeling this might go against the grain of some of MTs members.   
 My original post was meant to be a metaphor about another subject but I think most didnt get it. Maybe I didnt give a good example. 

 I have had many potential students come to my dojo from the world of tippy-tap tournaments.. 99.99% of the time they have their hands in the wrong place for the way people might normally fight..too low to either block or counter effectively. 

 They are so used to never having someone get serious about hitting their head that their body has adapted it self to having the hands out of position and feeling safe that way. 

 Its a real eye opener for them when they spar the first time and feel helpless as they get smacked in the head. They are not used to the discomfort of getting hit and go into a kind of shock for a second. Often they are not used to hitting and making hard contact as well. Hitting and getting hit is extremely strenuous and I have seen many people in good shape tire quickly because they dont stay calm. They usually find what they were previously taught by their old teachers is ineffective. 

 A bit of stress or pressure is needed to add realism to training.this will help eliminate some or most of the shock of getting hit and the student will learn to remain calm and not lose their wits more so than if they were not used to being hit at all. 

 Admittedly some dojo do this sort of training for sadistic reasons or just plain old fashion machismo, however, this is not why we train this way. We train this way so the student is better prepared for what may happen in the real world. Its not exactly fun to get hit but you find out exactly where your weakness is and will correct it more quickly than if someone that beleives in the "warm & fuzzy" approach says:
_gosh, ya know I dont mean to harp on you or destroy your right to self expression and creativeness but it might be better if you held your hands in this way because in a real fight you might get hit.blah, blah, blah_ . 

 All the hand holding and warm fuzzy feelings wont teach you how to stay calm after getting hit...I dont enjoy hitting my students while sparring (or getting hit by them) but I DO want them to be able to protect themselves.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 8, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Just as an aside, has anyone noticed that many of the worst injuries seem to come from the "soft and fluffy" type of dojos? I have seen some bad injuries this way in the Bujinkan. My current teacher has had people state publically that they were scared to come back a second time for fear of injury, yet the worse injuries I have seen have not kept the students from coming back to the next class. By comparisson, I have seen injuries that have made people go to the hospital in dojos that have a reputation for doing things nice, soft and easy.


It's not an easy thing keeping up a facade like that for long - as soon as things go south, these people feel an overwhelming need to correct their mistakes quickly, the pace of which an unsuspecting uke is probably not able to keep up with. Which causes damage eventually.

It's one thing to nurture adaptability. It's quite another not to put as much focus in your A plans as is needed, and instead of relying on your B plans to save the day. Expecting everything to fail the first time without trying to correct yourself doesn't help anyone.


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## MJS (Dec 8, 2004)

Just my .02 here.  People train in the arts for a bunch of different reasons.  SD, weight loss, an activity to do after work, a place to meet people, etc.  IMO, the student should know what he/she is getting themselves into before they enroll.  They should be asking questions, watching a class, or even taking a trial class.  Contact is part of the MA, therefore, if its something that they don't think that they can handle, then they should look for something else to do.  

I've seen people doing line drills with techs. and the attacks that they're throwing are a joke.  A 2 hand choke looks more like a shoulder massage than a choke.  Now, I'm not saying that you gotta squeeze 'till the person turns 5 shades of blue, but at least put some pressure on.  The same thing with a punch.  The defender doesnt have to move, because the punch is 6in. away from the target!  

While I"m not advocating leaving every class with a broken nose, black eye, or sprained wrist, again, contact is part of the class.  If its such a foreign entity to the student, whats gonna happen when they get attacked on the street?

Mike


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## RRouuselot (Dec 8, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Just my .02 here.
> 
> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]People train in the arts for a bunch of different reasons. SD, weight loss, an activity to do after work, a place to meet people, etc.
> 
> ...





   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]I mostly train as part of my daily routine. I am not really concerned with SD anymore.I think I can deal with most things that might come my way. I think joining a dojo to meet people or weight loss might not be such a good reason to join. For socializing there has got to be a better place, and for weight lossbest place would be to join a gym and consult with a fitness trainer. Most MA dont have a clue on how to lose weight. 

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]YES! Ask as many questions as you want about everything. If the teacher gives you questionable answers or seems to dodge the question (about him, his training, or background) thank him for his time and leave. John Lindsey of E-Budo wrote a good article on finding a dojo. 

   3)[font=&quot]      [/font]Could you imagine 2 boxers never making contact, or 2 judoka never grabbing each other..it would be a joke. MA are not ballet or aerobics with punches.that would be Tae-Bo. In MA you NEED contact. 

   4)[font=&quot]      [/font]I have seen this too. Going that east does nobody any good. 

   5)[font=&quot]      [/font]Nor am I. You do need some amount of discomfort. This serves 2 purposes. 1 is to know the tori/defender is doing the technique correctly, the other is so uke/attaker can know how it feels to have the technique done.and thereby gaining respect for its use.


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## yariman (Dec 8, 2004)

Do you go to play, or do you go to train?
Training is hard, play is fun.
If serious, expect pain. If not, expect pain.


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## heretic888 (Dec 8, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I kind had a feeling this might go against the grain of some of MTs members.
> My original post was meant to be a metaphor about another subject but I think most didnt get it. Maybe I didnt give a good example.
> 
> I have had many potential students come to my dojo from the world of tippy-tap tournaments.. 99.99% of the time they have their hands in the wrong place for the way people might normally fight..too low to either block or counter effectively.
> ...



It should be mentioned, of course, that "pressure training" and "sparring" are not necessarily the same thing here.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 8, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> It should be mentioned, of course, that "pressure training" and "sparring" are not necessarily the same thing here.


 
 Just so there is no misunderstanding.
 When I said pressure I meant as in giving them a bit of stress not as in pressure points


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## heretic888 (Dec 8, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Just so there is no misunderstanding.
> When I said pressure I meant as in giving them a bit of stress not as in pressure points



Ummm.... okay??

What made you think I was talking about kyusho just then??  :idunno:


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## RRouuselot (Dec 8, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Ummm.... okay??
> 
> What made you think I was talking about kyusho just then??  :idunno:


 
 I didn't. Someone sent me an email and asked if that is what I meant.


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## heretic888 (Dec 8, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I didn't. Someone sent me an email and asked if that is what I meant.



Ah, ok. I must have misread.


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## MJS (Dec 8, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]I mostly train as part of my daily routine. I am not really concerned with SD anymore.I think I can deal with most things that might come my way. I think joining a dojo to meet people or weight loss might not be such a good reason to join. For socializing there has got to be a better place, and for weight lossbest place would be to join a gym and consult with a fitness trainer. Most MA dont have a clue on how to lose weight.



I agree.  You'd be surprised though as the number of people that join for those reasons.



> 2)[font=&quot]      [/font]YES! Ask as many questions as you want about everything. If the teacher gives you questionable answers or seems to dodge the question (about him, his training, or background) thank him for his time and leave. John Lindsey of E-Budo wrote a good article on finding a dojo.



agreed!



> 3)[font=&quot]      [/font]Could you imagine 2 boxers never making contact, or 2 judoka never grabbing each other..it would be a joke. MA are not ballet or aerobics with punches.that would be Tae-Bo. In MA you NEED contact.



Absolutely!!  



> 4)[font=&quot]      [/font]I have seen this too. Going that east does nobody any good.



Thats right.  Contact has to be made.  How else is the person going to get any better if no or hardly any contact is made?



> 5)[font=&quot]      [/font]Nor am I. You do need some amount of discomfort. This serves 2 purposes. 1 is to know the tori/defender is doing the technique correctly, the other is so uke/attaker can know how it feels to have the technique done.and thereby gaining respect for its use.



Agreed!

Mike


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## Don Roley (Apr 23, 2005)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> It should be mentioned, of course, that "pressure training" and "sparring" are not necessarily the same thing here.



Anyone ever been in the military?

Which is more stressfull, sparring or your first ten minutes off the bus at basic training?

There are plenty of ways to put pressure on people- not just physical ones. Food for thought and exploration.


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## arnisador (Apr 23, 2005)

I certainly learned things by sparring with rattan sticks vs. padded ones. It was valuable.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 24, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I certainly learned things by sparring with rattan sticks vs. padded ones. It was valuable.


   Kind of bumped it up a notch didnt it?.......did it put a more realistic perspective on what you do when training?

   I may be wrong but doesnt Arnis use knives/machetes for real encounters instead of sticks? 

   Can you imagine the way it would change the way you do technique and your willingness to engage the opponent if all of a sudden you had to use live blades instead of sticks?

   I doubt people would just go at it or have the same reaction as if it were padded sticks or just plain sticks as compared to live blades..it would be a different mind set all together.


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## arnisador (Apr 24, 2005)

Some--many--FMAs use the sticks as stand-ins for swords, but others have switched to all-stick (e.g., Balintawak). Modern Arnis talks about swords but really emphasizes stick techniques. We often grab the stick, for example.

 One of the most interesting things learned was what _doesn't_ work. Some FMA instructors teach that a single hit will decide a fight--but a rattan stick to the forearm or thigh just gets ignored. (Less so on the hand.) Of course for fighting one would want a heavier stick, but it's interesting to see how little it matters to get hit with the rattan in "naturally padded" areas.

 Kicks it up a notch? Oh yeah. For knife training I like to use metal training blades--it's not like live blades, which I consider unsafe to spar with, but somehow the feel of the metal gives you some of that mental feeling that you've just been cut.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 24, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Some--many--FMAs use the sticks as stand-ins for swords, but others have switched to all-stick (e.g., Balintawak). Modern Arnis talks about swords but really emphasizes stick techniques. We often grab the stick, for example.
> 
> One of the most interesting things learned was what _doesn't_ work. Some FMA instructors teach that a single hit will decide a fight--but a rattan stick to the forearm or thigh just gets ignored. (Less so on the hand.) Of course for fighting one would want a heavier stick, but it's interesting to see how little it matters to get hit with the rattan in "naturally padded" areas.
> 
> Kicks it up a notch? Oh yeah. For knife training I like to use metal training blades--it's not like live blades, which I consider unsafe to spar with, but somehow the feel of the metal gives you some of that mental feeling that you've just been cut.


 
   So now that you look back on training with padded weapons and training with hard wood or metal weapons which would you say better prepares you for something that might be needed in the real world?

   Also, has your opinion changed after training in both ways?

   Has your mind set changed while actually training?


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## arnisador (Apr 24, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> So now that you look back on training with padded weapons and training with hard wood or metal weapons which would you say better prepares you for something that might be needed in the real world?
> 
> Also, has your opinion changed after training in both ways?
> 
> Has your mind set changed while actually training?


 I think padded weapons may be a necessary stage, and there is a time and a place for everything. For me, I prefer wood. It doesn't flop around I strike, it doesn't bend when I try to do a lock with it, etc. And, I know when I've been hit so I don't "learn" to walk through damaging attacks--a big danger. I've heard people say "I could keep fighting after that" after getting hit in the face with a soft stick. Well...maybe, but not near as well, and if he knows what he's doing he's about to follow up with one heck of a blow.

 It certainly changed my perception of the usefulness of certain techniques--some for better, some for worse. It also makes the adrenalin kick in.

 I trained without "live" training for years when I started out (in Karate), because that's how I was taught. Enjoyable, but empty at its heart. Now I put on the boxing gloves for empty hand sparring all the time, and kick hard at targets that won't break. I grapple to win. I swing the stick and take some hits back. It's the only way. I'm a convert.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 24, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Now I put on the boxing gloves for empty hand sparring all the time, and kick hard at targets that won't break. I grapple to win. I swing the stick and take some hits back. It's the only way. I'm a convert.


Then why are you posting this in this forum?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 24, 2005)

If your way is the only way, what do you hope to achieve by posting in this forum?


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## arnisador (Apr 24, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> If your way is the only way, what do you hope to achieve by posting in this forum?


 I said "I'm a convert", meaning me--it's the only way for me. I respect those who train differently--I certainly didn't mean to imply that I didn't. 

 Why in this forum? That's where the thread was. Thread drift happens.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 24, 2005)

Yes.

 Lets play nice, and bring this thread back on topic, shall we.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 24, 2005)

I've broken a few bones from training over the years.  Fingers, ribs, clavicle, wrists, a knee...and almost my neck.  I over did this type of training and now I'm beginning to pay for it.  I'm 28 and I can feel latent pain setting in on my knee and my back.  What can I expect when I'm 55?  A good friend of mine is 35.  He trained with Ken Shamrock in the Lion's Den.  Same story, a body that broken and worn out (way worse then mine by the way).  He had back surgury and the doc told him his back is 30 years older then it should be.

"Realism" walks a fine line.  You can learn from it and you can *end * your training with it.  What use is it when you've injured yourself to the point where you can't train anymore?  In my dojang, I provide an environment where one can train "realistically" and still live a normal life.  We spar regularly with some contact and attack each other with realism, but there are limits.  Every couple of months we spar full speed, full contact...just enough so we don't forget.  We wear full gear and I take every single safety precaution I can think of.  

Yeah, some people still train harder then we do, but I would say we still get a good feeling for realism.  Moreover, I have a wife and two kids and a job where I can't be sporting bruises and black eyes every day.  The last two times I've been injured (when I broke my clavicle and popped a few ribs) really made living hard for me and my family.

This is my happy medium.  I take it to my limit and my students are also pushed to that line.  If they want more, they can go elsewhere and break some bones.  I get nervous when people start talking about "realistic training" and I think there is a lot of hype out there with a lot of people blowing alot of smoke.  The truth is that there is a cost to benifit ratio that people need to take into account in regards to realistic training.  

I hope this makes sense...

upnorthkyosa

PS - Any amount of control reduces the realism in training.  Therefore realism and continual training in a dojang are incompatible in their purest sense.  There has to be balance.


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## RRouuselot (Apr 25, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I've broken a few bones from training over the years. Fingers, ribs, clavicle, wrists, a knee...and almost my neck. I over did this type of training and now I'm beginning to pay for it. I'm 28 and I can feel latent pain setting in on my knee and my back. What can I expect when I'm 55? A good friend of mine is 35. He trained with Ken Shamrock in the Lion's Den. Same story, a body that broken and worn out (way worse then mine by the way). He had back surgury and the doc told him his back is 30 years older then it should be.
> 
> 1) "Realism" walks a fine line. You can learn from it and you can *end *your training with it. What use is it when you've injured yourself to the point where you can't train anymore? In my dojang, I provide an environment where one can train "realistically" and still live a normal life. We spar regularly with some contact and attack each other with realism, but there are limits. Every couple of months we spar full speed, full contact...just enough so we don't forget. We wear full gear and I take every single safety precaution I can think of.
> 
> ...



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]I hope when people train realistically they use some common sense and self control. Any idiot can go out there and go crazy and either get hurt or hurt someone. That is not really training..if that is all people want then they could just as easily go to an NAACP meeting an confess how much they dislike African Americans or go to a Klan meeting and confess how much they love all non Anglo Saxons. 

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Hey, the Panda look is in! Just kidding. I feel ya on this one. I cant go to work looking like I got hit by the Bullet Train..people just dont like to see that and I certainly dont enjoy feeling like it. 



   In the MA one of the main things emphasized is courtesy. This is important at all levels of training as well as all aspects of training. If I give someone a good pop while sparring and they get a little pain, maybe drop to one knee or something there is no real need for me to jump on them and keep pounding. It should be evident from what happened that they need to work on whatever weakness caused that to happen. Usually when something like that happens we stop and I will let them know why it happened and how to not let it happen again. We will work on it easy at first and then pump up the volume as they get more comfortable with it. That is how people learn from their mistakes in sparring and not just from getting a good daily beat down.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 25, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]I hope when people train realistically they use some common sense and self control. Any idiot can go out there and go crazy and either get hurt or hurt someone. That is not really training..if that is all people want then they could just as easily go to an NAACP meeting an confess how much they dislike African Americans or go to a Klan meeting and confess how much they love all non Anglo Saxons.
> 
> 2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Hey, the Panda look is in! Just kidding. I feel ya on this one. I cant go to work looking like I got hit by the Bullet Train..people just dont like to see that and I certainly dont enjoy feeling like it.
> 
> In the MA one of the main things emphasized is courtesy. This is important at all levels of training as well as all aspects of training. If I give someone a good pop while sparring and they get a little pain, maybe drop to one knee or something there is no real need for me to jump on them and keep pounding. It should be evident from what happened that they need to work on whatever weakness caused that to happen. Usually when something like that happens we stop and I will let them know why it happened and how to not let it happen again. We will work on it easy at first and then pump up the volume as they get more comfortable with it. That is how people learn from their mistakes in sparring and not just from getting a good daily beat down.



In my opinion, martial arts is contact based like many contact sports.  I won't call it a sport though 

I think that one should expect a similar level of contact that one gets when playing an american football game or rugby game on sparring days...well a friendly game between friends, not the professional stuff.  I think that in the dojang, one needs to be more careful in the terms of control and safety and, just as Robert said, more courteous.

This is a good discussion...


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## RRouuselot (Apr 25, 2005)

One major thing I stress in the dojo is full contact is not a lesson in who can take a good beating or who can give one. Thats just macho BS and is a pretty pointless way to train. Full contact is a lesson in learning where your own weaknesses are and how to fix them. If people are not doing that they are just getting beat on for no reason. As I said before, full contact gives you the opportunity to react under a stressful situation that is similar to an actual situation. That alone helps you keep your act together when something really happens.


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## arnisador (Apr 25, 2005)

Yes, full agreement. You need to take the lessons learned back into your next training session. You need to think about what techniques kept scoring--and prepare a response for them.

And, the experience of going full-out is good preparation for the real thing, if it should come.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 25, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Just as an aside, has anyone noticed that many of the worst injuries seem to come from the "soft and fluffy" type of dojos?


 Yup, cause people that train with contact learn to protect themselves and not do stupid things...

 Real weapons sparring is dumb, well not dumb.  It can be done with some armour, but not regullarly as it will leave many bruises and possibly breaks.  The body can't take that regullarly.

 PVC with a little padding wtill hurts, and can still leave some nasty bruises, but it is not likely to cause serious injury.  But it will still give you enough "ouch" to not want it to happen again.  

 This is no different then sparring with gloves and mouth guards.

 Some people do spar without gloves, but usually that means the face is off limits for punching...

 So which gives worse habits?  Hitting full out with softened hands/weapons?  Or hitting moderetly and avoiding the main targets with non-softened weapons?


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