# Interview: Ken Shamrock, Dana, and Randy Couture



## Brian S (Oct 25, 2007)

> Heavyweight champion Randy Couture isnt the only UFC Hall of Famer whos had a falling out with UFC President Dana White.
> 
> Before the UFC legend abruptly resigned from the UFC earlier this month, Ken Shamrock had his own issues with UFC management. After working to become the biggest name in mixed-martial arts  and becoming perhaps the first MMA superstar to get the sport international recognition  his relationship with the UFC soured to the point of being essentially nonexistent today.
> 
> ...


 ??


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 25, 2007)

I never liked Ken. So my comments about him will be biased. 

But here is a valid point. Randy and Dana could not come to a business deal on who to fight next. Randy wanted someone, and they were not available. They did this over lunch, not over the phone or screaming at each other on TV. I hardly call that a falling out. 

I do call it another attempt by Ken to get his name back into the media, which I think is the only thing he is good at besides believing his own hype and delussions. 

(* Sorry I told you I do not like Ken, as a person, fighter or coach or anything. *)


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2007)

Ken's got a big head, and perhaps didn't know when to exit gracefully, and perhaps goes a littl eheavy on the drama at times... probably a pro-wrestling aftereffect.

But, he did do a lot to build this sport, and was one of the best.

And, a lot of what he is saying is not just him saying it.  Dana is not known for treating fighters with much respect, just as money makers. Event the Ultimate fighter I think shows this, and everytime he's on camera it seems pretty staged.

But they've been having big name fighters leave on bad terms for a long time now.  Of course it used to be they could sign with Pride, now there really isn't anywhere left with top tier fighters for top guys to go.


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Oct 25, 2007)

I have to agree with what has been said about Ken.  I think in his time he did a lot to help this sport, he was a guy you could cheer for or boo for but anytime he stepped into the octagon you knew it was going to be a good fight (few examples of this not happening to come to mind.)  But lately you can tell he has become a major cash cow ie his fights with Tito Ortiz.  Did anyone else notice after the last fight when (and remember they hate each other more than anything) Ken went to Tito hugged him and I (and others) heard Ken say "hey we made a lot of money together".  That right there made me think twice about what really matters to Mr. Shamrock.​


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## AceHBK (Oct 26, 2007)

Im no fan of Ken either.  His big head and ego is up there with Tito's if not exceeding it.  Ken's days are loong gone despite what he thinks himself...but...

where there is smoke there is fire....I think others have said the samething but usually only big names will get it heard when they say something.

All the medical bills these guys rack up....a 6,ooo dollar paycheck is a drop in the bucket.  Not like UFC offers healthcare.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 26, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Ken's got a big head, and perhaps didn't know when to exit gracefully, and perhaps goes a littl eheavy on the drama at times... probably a pro-wrestling aftereffect.
> 
> But, he did do a lot to build this sport, and was one of the best.
> 
> ...



Andrew,

No disrespect to you or others here, but I have a request and question. 

What specifically has Ken done for the sport? 
What titles did he win?
What orgs or events did he start?

Thanks


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## Andrew Green (Oct 26, 2007)

Back in the early days he was probably the biggest name next to Royce.  He won Superfight titles, Founded the Lions Den (look at the list of guys he's trained, its a impressive list), was King of Pancrase, and was probably the first well rounded fighter, meaning a good wreslter, good with submissions, a good striker and very well conditioned, and was also one of the first people coaching fighters in all areas at once.


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## loui_ludwig (Oct 26, 2007)

Ken is one of my favorite MMA fighters. He is cocky but most of the MMA fighters are also the same. 

Dana let go of Ken cuz KS was coaching in the IFL. Dana likes to monoplozie the sport of MMA. I like watching UFC events, but the way they try to control of the fighters is not good. When UFC bought Pride, i knew that there will be no more Pride events.

Ken, even though, not a tough 10 fighter, he has accomplishments:
-1st King Of Pancrase champion
-UFC Superfight Champion
-1st submission win in the UFC. He does not credit for this cuz Royce Gracie won the tournament.


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## Skip Cooper (Oct 27, 2007)

Personally, I like both fighters, but I think Randy has done more for the UFC, because he is a professional in his attitude. 

In my opinion, Shamrock has become a petty whiner that is always complaining that "somebody did him wrong". This is something I could do without.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Back in the early days he was probably the biggest name next to Royce. He won Superfight titles, Founded the Lions Den (look at the list of guys he's trained, its a impressive list), was King of Pancrase, and was probably the first well rounded fighter, meaning a good wreslter, good with submissions, a good striker and very well conditioned, and was also one of the first people coaching fighters in all areas at once.




Andrew,

Thank you for your reply. 

I remember Royce. I remember Severn. I remember others as well fromthe early days. I even remember Ken. I do not remember him winning any super fights. He lost to Severn correct? It hink that was considered the first super fight.  What had he won before that? I am not being obtuse on purpose I am truly trying to understand why he and others think he was so good. 

Thanks


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## Marginal (Oct 27, 2007)

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Shamrock


> At UFC 5 in May 1995, Shamrock and Gracie squared off in the UFC's first ever "Superfight." Unfortunately, the match did not live up to expectations. At UFC 5 the UFC had instituted time limits and Shamrock and Gracie fought for the entire allotted time of 30 minutes along with 5 minutes of overtime before the match was declared a draw. Shamrock then defeated Dan Severn for the newly-created Superfight belt, successfully defending this title against Oleg Taktarov and Kimo Leopoldo. In 1996, he lost the belt via judges decision in a rematch with Severn.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2007)

Marginal said:


> From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Shamrock



Marginal,

Thanks! for hte link and info.

But what did he do to get to the Superfight? 

I mean in the UFC he never made it to a fight until they gave him the bye to the final fight. He always got a broken finger of broken hand in the prelim fights. This is all I remember of him. I guess he did do some things. I just do not see it as being the greatest thing that he and others have made him out to be.


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## Andy Moynihan (Oct 27, 2007)

Well those of the more MMA-conscious posters can elaborate better than I can but as I am given to understand it, Shamrock's fighting career did not begin and end with UFC, he was a competitor in Japanese Pancrase for awhile before UFC existed ( I don't imagine "King of Pancrase" is a title given to someone with a habit of losing).

Basically I view Ken Shamrock as the Muhammad Ali of MMA: He was also very gifted in his prime, in his time in the ring he also changed the sport and perception of it, but was sadly also not smart enough to leave the ring while still at the peak of his powers.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 28, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Well those of the more MMA-conscious posters can elaborate better than I can but as I am given to understand it, Shamrock's fighting career did not begin and end with UFC, he was a competitor in Japanese Pancrase for awhile before UFC existed ( I don't imagine "King of Pancrase" is a title given to someone with a habit of losing).
> 
> Basically I view Ken Shamrock as the Muhammad Ali of MMA: He was also very gifted in his prime, in his time in the ring he also changed the sport and perception of it, but was sadly also not smart enough to leave the ring while still at the peak of his powers.



Andy et al,

He might have been able to take more punishment then others but I have not seen enough of his non-American produced fights to see or say more. The impression is that the UFC and other leagues would not be around without Ken. I disagree. I think there was a market and people did it. Judo and JuJitsu and ground fighting are not new.  Like I have said a bunch of times before I have trained some / little with guys from the 60's when the "ju" arts were more popular. To me the followers of Ken make it sound like the Gracies (* others I do not like in person, but in this case I respect their skill *)  would not have been able to get their system out there. That all the wrestling (* Big Time Wrestling have been around for decades by this point of Ken's entry in to the business *) also would not be there.  I do nto question he was around. I do not question he might have had some skill in the day as well, as I have not seen enough. What I remember is him whining onthe side lines that his fingers were broke or that his hand was broke. Fingers being allowed early on. And his hand was broke from hitting someone in the head - forehead. It seemed this guy could not get through the fights as others did in the UFC. To me I agree he helped shape the UFC, by adding in more rules so he could make it. My opinion based upon perceptions of his statements and actions and the changes that were adopted.  If he did great things in other areas good. Why does he act like none of it would be around without him? Other promoters and people were also involved. I bet things might look different if he was not there, but it still would be around. 

Now, with Dana White at the UFC helm, the 5 minute rounds the stand them up if no action and all the rules is about making *MONEY ON THE SPORT. * Yes I said it. But here is the thing, I understand it, Dana does not hide or deny it, and most of the fans  like it.  I think if Kimo and Royce meet under the exisitng rules their fight would be different, as Kimo would not have gotten frustrated and made his mistake and lost. They would have been stood up. The Gracies do not usualy compete in this format, and I respect their decision not too. It is their choice. But even with all tehir arrogance and ego, they do not come across like Ken and his followers about the Sport would not be around without them. They do say they offer the best. Who would not in a marketing campaign. They admit they started something that others took over to make money on as there were two failed ventures before the current success.  

I respect Randy's choice to walk away. Good for him. Go do other things. If he is not 1000% into the next fight it is not good for him or any one else for that matter.  (* Yes I did type one thousand percent on purpose *)

Based upon this perception of those who present something and my memory it does not line up - hence my confusion and my questioning.


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## Andy Moynihan (Oct 28, 2007)

Well, unfortunately, that's the other thing Shamrock and Ali have in common: ego.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 28, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Well, unfortunately, that's the other thing Shamrock and Ali have in common: ego.




But I saw Ali win. I saw him, Ali, win in different fights against different people. I guess I can see where he said he was the greatest fighter of all time, but he did not say that boxing would not be the same without him. I think we can all say that there was another influence in Boxing that had more control.


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