# Question about Parker's clock method



## fnorfurfoot (Mar 30, 2008)

When using the clock method to describe a particular direction you step or turn to in a technique or form, does the clock stay put or does it turn with you when you move?

For instance, say you step to 10:30 and then turn around.  If you stepped forward from there, would you be stepping to 4:30 because that is the oppposite of 10:30 or are you now stepping towards 12:00 because that is the direction you are now facing?


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## terryl965 (Mar 30, 2008)

fnorfurfoot said:


> When using the clock method to describe a particular direction you step or turn to in a technique or form, does the clock stay put or does it turn with you when you move?
> 
> For instance, say you step to 10:30 and then turn around. If you stepped forward from there, would you be stepping to 4:30 because that is the oppposite of 10:30 or are you now stepping towards 12:00 because that is the direction you are now facing?


 
I beleive it would be 4:30 I beleive it is the opposite.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 30, 2008)

The clock doesn't move. It's whole purpose is a non-movable frame of reference for the floor position. So the original 12:00 would always be the same once the form, technique, or exercise has started.

Once finished or if restarting, though, you can make the 12:00 face any direction you/the instructor wishes. This can be a great learning experience.


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## Ray (Mar 30, 2008)

fnorfurfoot said:


> When using the clock method to describe a particular direction you step or turn to in a technique or form, does the clock stay put or does it turn with you when you move?
> 
> For instance, say you step to 10:30 and then turn around. If you stepped forward from there, would you be stepping to 4:30 because that is the oppposite of 10:30 or are you now stepping towards 12:00 because that is the direction you are now facing?


The reference points of the clock "stay put."  They are established at the beginning of whatever it is you're doing.


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## fnorfurfoot (Mar 30, 2008)

That's what I thought.  But then I started looking at it the other way and that started making sense too.


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## Monadnock (Mar 30, 2008)

Nah, you don't want to move it. That'd be like changing the North direction every time you went around a corner.


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## Imua Kuntao (Mar 31, 2008)

I am sorry, I do not mean any malice, and have respect for all, but as a 5th dan in kenpo, you should already know these things.


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## fnorfurfoot (Mar 31, 2008)

Imua Kuntao said:


> I am sorry, I do not mean any malice, and have respect for all, but as a 5th dan in kenpo, you should already know these things.


My rank is not with EPAK.  My original instructor's rank came from the Villari side of Kempo.  My instructor borrowed some techniques from the American Kenpo, but never used the clock when teaching.  Everything was just "step left" or "forward and to the left."  Now, as I am writing my techniques out for my students, I was thinking that using the clock would be more helpful than the way I used to do it.  Especially when writing out forms.  My old way would have angles and degrees but if you messed up the turn, there was no way for you to know if you were facing the right way or not.  

Sorry if I let you down for not knowing this, but it was never taught to me.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 31, 2008)

fnorfurfoot said:


> Sorry if I let you down for not knowing this, but it was never taught to me.


You didn't let anyone down. As Seneca says, _A man, as long as he teaches, learns_. Funny how much we *know* until we start to write it out and/or teach it. Then the easiest and simplest of things become question marks.  And it takes a strong person to say, I don't know. But I'll find out!


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## Big Don (Mar 31, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> Once finished or if restarting, though, you can make the 12:00 face any direction you/the instructor wishes. This can be a great learning experience.


Oh yeah, that is a blast. Some of the people who normally look really sharp, nice crisp movement, gi-a-poppin' face the wall and freeze... I love it.


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## Ray (Mar 31, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Oh yeah, that is a blast. Some of the people who normally look really sharp, nice crisp movement, gi-a-poppin' face the wall and freeze... I love it.


Facing a corner to start is even better :wavey:


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## kidswarrior (Mar 31, 2008)

Ray said:


> Facing a corner to start is even better :wavey:


Or how about this one: With a group, line up in a square, then everyone turn to face inward, and begin! Or, for a truly side-splitting experience, line them up in a circle instead.


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## Ray (Mar 31, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> Or how about this one: With a group, line up in a square, then everyone turn to face inward, and begin! Or, for a truly side-splitting experience, line them up in a circle instead.


Devious, simply devious.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 31, 2008)

Monadnock said:


> Nah, you don't want to move it. That'd be like changing the North direction every time you went around a corner.


I thought you opponent was always moving to twelve if you are facing him, six from behind.
sean


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## hapkenkido (Apr 2, 2008)

i was taught that 12 was a fixed place and never moved. i love to have my students do their forms at different directions, 2 people back to back and to really mess with them mirror each other.


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## Monadnock (Apr 4, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> I thought you opponent was always moving to twelve if you are facing him, six from behind.
> sean


 
Yes, but from there it does not change just because he changes position or you move him onto a different line. as the OP asked.

Some 2-man techs do not start with an opponent at 12. 12 is YOUR starting  direction.


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## Sigung86 (May 5, 2008)

Who's on first?  :drinkbeer


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## Doc (May 6, 2008)

Sigung86 said:


> Who's on first?  :drinkbeer



Idunno - third base!


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## Doc (May 6, 2008)

Keep in mind that positions on the clock are all considered "relative" even when the positions are "fixed." That is, the clock does move, but only relative to the action described within the "Clock Concept." Confusion is generated by students who presume the clock is "totally" fixed over "Relative Fixed Positions."


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 6, 2008)

Doc said:


> Keep in mind that positions on the clock are all considered "relative" even when the positions are "fixed." That is, the clock does move, but only relative to the action described within the "Clock Concept." Confusion is generated by students who presume the clock is "totally" fixed over "Relative Fixed Positions."


 
Clear as mud.


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## Doc (May 6, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Clear as mud.



Cut the crap buddy, you understood exactly what I was saying - uh didn't you?


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## jks9199 (May 6, 2008)

Hell, I did and I'm not a kempoist!

12 o'clock is the point where you start out looking forward.  The direction stays constant, but you always stay at the center.  So, if you step and turn to 3 o'clock, your left hand is now at 12.  If you then step forward, you're still moving in the 3 o'clock direction, but you're keeping that center of the clock with you.  You ain't falling off the face of the clock, moving into "wall", in other words.

Seems like a pretty useful approach to describe motions...  Lots better than the "north/south" that some people use, or trying to describe a couple of 45 degree turns like this:  step diagonally forward to your right, turning to face the direction of the step, then turn 45 degrees to your right again.  (Step and face 1:30; turn to 3 o'clock.)


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## Doc (May 6, 2008)

Taken From the
SubLevel Four Kenpo Glossary of FAQ:
(many questions submitted by Bode)

"Does the clock move in the &#8220;Clock&#8221; reference concept?"​
The answer is a yes, and a no, but most understand correctly &#8220;no.&#8221; The position of a fixed point doesn&#8217;t move persé, but does move somewhat. Keep in mind that positions on the clock are all considered "relative" even when the positions are "fixed." That is, the clock does move, but only relative to the action described within the "Clock Concept." Confusion is generated by students who presume the clock is "totally" fixed, over a "Relative Fixed Position." What most are really asking is "does the clock rotate?" as you move. It does not.

Students misunderstand the term "fixed" as if you put a big clock on the ground and then drove a stake into four corners. If this were true, when you began to move, "relative to the action," 12 o'clock would no longer be in the same place as you move and shift at various angles. Therefore, when you move laterally, the clock doesn't "rotate" but moves with you so 12 o'clock is always in the same "relative" fixed position to you.

What idiot takes the time to write this crap out anyway? After all, everybody understands the clock concept - uh don't they?


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## IWishToLearn (May 6, 2008)

Doc said:


> Taken From the
> SubLevel Four Kenpo Glossary of FAQ:
> (many questions submitted by Bode)
> 
> ...



"Why?"


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## Doc (May 6, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> "Why?"



YOU! Go stand next to Bode.


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## kidswarrior (May 6, 2008)

Doc said:


> Taken From the
> SubLevel Four Kenpo Glossary of FAQ:
> (many questions submitted by Bode)
> 
> ...


Only now, Sir, only now.


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