# some disturbing Terror news



## Gary Crawford (Jul 16, 2004)

http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/article_landing.aspx?titleid=1&articleid=711


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## Flatlander (Jul 16, 2004)

It's pretty obvious what was going on there.  It was a dry run.  Man oh man.


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## CanuckMA (Jul 16, 2004)

Or it could have been a bunch of musicians going to LA. The trips to the washroom at the same time could have been at prayer time. I know that I, as an observant Jew, do feel more comfortable praying in private.


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## Rob Broad (Jul 16, 2004)

This is one of those situations where civil liberties be damned.  I would want confirmations from the supposed hotle they were to play at, all of teir luggage to be checked, and have them detained for as long as neccessary to confirm everything.  If they were not guilty of anything then they really should be able to understand everyone's uneasiness about the situation.


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 16, 2004)

As I said to Gary in E-Mail there are ways to deal with this issue one way is to demand that Airline Personnel inspect those passengers or you are not boarding the plane and demand a refund (pocket book mentality). 

You can be rude and obinoxious and demand to check yourself. It is your life and your families life at risk. The worse outcome is having security come over and explain to them why your upset. Be loud and rude if neccessary.

Simply not get on the plane and ask to be booked on another flight. 

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 16, 2004)

If 19 terrorist can learn to fly,why couldn't terrorists learn to play instraments?Or could terrorist leaders recruit musicians?Both are possible.One thing is for sure,timing is everything to terrorists.So now we must fugure out, what will the timing be?With the rules the PSA are going by,getting terrorists on board an aircraft is very possible.The PSA will not screen more than two middle eastern passengers on any one flight.Political correctness will be our doom because the best policy for detering terrorism is racial profiling.


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## Feisty Mouse (Jul 16, 2004)

Good article, except for drawing on Ann Coulter, who is a nut.

It seems like people are so afraid that the letter of the law is more valuable than specific incidents.  I understand that we as a nation live and are judged by the letter of the law.  

What I am getting at is - with such a large group, and such suspicious behavior (if they were all Anglo-Saxon teenagers it would still make me very nervous!), something should be done - some deeper digging into these men's lives.  If the US government is allowed to dig through my life, my past, my credit reports, for crying out loud, then what is keeping the government from investigating this incident in more detail?  Fears of seeming racist?  Prisoner abuse scandals are what is making the Muslim world hate us.  Investigating a group with suspicious behavior on a plane should not.


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 16, 2004)

That is it exactly Fiesty at the risk of giving the facade of being racist your life is a precious commodity and so is your families. I would risk the odd looks and the whispers after everything was cleared and everyone got onboard.


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 16, 2004)

prisoner abuse scandals is not why the muslim world hates us,the only reason they have made such an issue is because many americans are so sensitive to it.Muslums are used to much worse than we can inflict on them.They would hate us if we had never stepped foot in a muslum nation.


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## michaeledward (Jul 16, 2004)

Stir up the fear ... Stir up the fear ... Only George Bush can save us from 'Evil'. Don't ever become relaxed again ... But go to Disneyworld and spend your money. 

A case of racial profiling and paranoia.

If I were on the plane, I would have been sleeping like a baby. Those 4 and half hour flights Suck! and sleep is the only way to get through them. 

Mike


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 16, 2004)

I would think that after 9/11 that People would not be so caliver in response to this issue but hey we are in America and you have the right to disagree or even vehemently disagree if you chose to do so. 

But as for me and my family I rather be paranoid and live another day than go to sleep and wake up in a fireball lol.


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## Feisty Mouse (Jul 16, 2004)

> prisoner abuse scandals is not why the muslim world hates us,the only reason they have made such an issue is because many americans are so sensitive to it.Muslums are used to much worse than we can inflict on them.They would hate us if we had never stepped foot in a muslum nation.


 Um, no, actually there are lots of Muslims in the US who are citizens and love this country.  The reason "the Muslim world" is getting upset (rather than fringe extremist terrorist groups) is because we really are saying one thing, as a nation, and doing another (i.e. prisoner abuse).  I don't really know what "(they) are used to much worse than we can inflict on them" means, except that you don't think Muslims are fellow humans, which I don't understand.  It's a religious belief, not another species.  There are some things I certainly have issue with - such as the gender roles and women as chattel - in some Muslim countries, but that is not about the religion overall.


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## michaeledward (Jul 16, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> prisoner abuse scandals is not why the muslim world hates us,the only reason they have made such an issue is because many americans are so sensitive to it.Muslums are used to much worse than we can inflict on them.They would hate us if we had never stepped foot in a muslum nation.


Maybe the Muslim world hates us because the Islamic Jazz Ensemble can't get to a paying gig without 274 other passengers on the airplane looking at them like they are terrorists. 

So much for a 'Free Country', eh?  

How's that First Amendment working out for *you?*

Mike


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 16, 2004)

Okay here is a can of worms I will open. I due to my studies in my younger years of being a Minister. The problem with any religious extremes is it always gets the attention of the media and it stirs up the pot and sells mucho dinero. 

However I must say that within the Muslim faith conquest is in the mind set of the extreme Muslim faith there is only one way for all people and it is the Muslim faith everything is garbage and should be destroyed at any cost. That is why at least in our current century Muslims exteremist have gotten our attention due to their ideas of world conquest. 

So if I offend anyone I am sorry unless your a Terrorist from any faith or country then I say watch your back lol because there are folks our here like me watching you

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 16, 2004)

Mr. Ward,I mean no disrespect,but after 9-11,all the pundents could talk about was that it could have been prevented.Now we have an incident that occured only a few weeks ago that many have found interesting enough that several news agencies have dicussed today and you seem to be cavalier about it.I really hope that I am just overreacting by being concerned about this.But,what if something does happen again?Will we see the same finger pointing?I'd rather be wrong about this now than be right when it does happen.


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## Feisty Mouse (Jul 16, 2004)

> However I must say that within the Muslim faith conquest is in the mind set of the extreme Muslim faith there is only one way for all people and it is the Muslim faith everything is garbage and should be destroyed at any cost.


 I think that is true of extremist Christian sects as well.  That kind of mindset I find very bizarre.


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## Flatlander (Jul 16, 2004)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Maybe the Muslim world hates us because the Islamic Jazz Ensemble can't get to a paying gig without 274 other passengers on the airplane looking at them like they are terrorists.
> 
> So much for a 'Free Country', eh?
> 
> ...


Did you really not find the behaviour particularly suspicious Mike?  Provided the woman's account was accurate, I sure did.


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## michaeledward (Jul 16, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> So if I offend anyone I am sorry unless your a Terrorist from any faith


You mean like, Pat Robertson? The guy who said:



> "The Lord has just blessed him," Robertson said of Bush. "I mean, he could make terrible mistakes and comes out of it. It doesn't make any difference what he does, good or bad, God picks him up because he's a man of prayer and God's blessing him."


Or



> "If I could just get a nuclear device inside Foggy Bottom, I think that's the answer."


Oh, Well. Mike


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 16, 2004)

What does Pat Robertson have to do with this?also I noticed you mentioned Bush before,he isn't even part of the discusion.we are talking about possible terrorists,not politics!


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 16, 2004)

The verbage is the same but there is another factor to consider in Terrorism the means and ability to carry out those ideas. I do not appreciate what Pat said and he should be held up to the courts for punishment for that statement in reference to Nuclear Weapons. 

The problem again is this is not USA vs Arabs. This is a Christian vs Muslim conflict if you look at terrorist training tapes that have been released look at what is painted on the torso's of the targets in rooms that are being used in terrorism camps. It is a Big Red Cross center mass. 

The extremeist on both sides would have (those of us in the middle are often caught in the cross fire) ,no pun intended, us chose sides.

Once again this conflict has been going on for 1000's of years but now days we have better and stronger weapons on both sides. More Fatalities.


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## michaeledward (Jul 16, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Did you really not find the behaviour particularly suspicious Mike? Provided the woman's account was accurate, I sure did.


I do not accept the woman's account as to what happened. 

I have been on enough airplanes in the past 5 years to know that you can not possibly watch 13 different people during a flight. It is completely unrealistic. Sure, you may share a smile with a passenger while boarding, and then look to see where they are, but during the flight, I find it highly unlikely that one person could so clearly witness the described activities.

More likely, I smell bad journalism; ala 'Jason Blair'. Someone read a news report about 'Terrorists attempting to assemble a bomb mid-flight', and worked backwards to create a ficticious story about it. 

The story stinks to high-heaven. It is about breeding a culture of fear. I see it as part of the campaign to re-elect George Bush.

Further, I think the next strike that a terrorist organization launches on US Soil, is not going to be on airplanes. The modus operandi of al Qaeda is to strike where we are not looking; African Embassies - Saudi foreign residences - Naval bases - Malaysia. We are looking (we think) carefully at air travel now. We are also looking closely at the political conventions, harbors and ports, powerplants, and most major big cities. 

Come on folks ... put on your boloney detectors ... 

Mike


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 16, 2004)

but,what if you are wrong?


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## michaeledward (Jul 16, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> What does Pat Robertson have to do with this?also I noticed you mentioned Bush before,he isn't even part of the discusion.we are talking about possible terrorists,not politics!


A)
Mark said "Terrorist from any Faith".
I see Pat Robertson as a terrorist.
Pat Robertson as part of the discussion because of Terrorism. 

B)
I mention George Bush because he is a self-proclaimed 'War President'. If we are in a state of War, we all need to be afraid. Stories like this are designed to breed fear in the populace, allowing for more centralized, martial-like control over the citizenry. 

Sincerely, Mike


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 16, 2004)

well,there was never any reason to bring your political beliefs into this.I am doing my best not to be arguementative,and if I seem to be,I apologize.This was ment to be a discussion about national security.I am concerned for the lives that could be lost if it does happen.


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 16, 2004)

In this current state of affairs we call Earth. There will and are people that will not react unless it is happening directly to them or hopefully not to a loved one. 

I wonder if these people would be reacting differently if they lost a friend or a loved one in a Terrorist incident. I for one did at 9/11 a distant realitive by the name Weiser was killed at the Twin Towers site and I for one will do whatever is in my power that the Creator has given me to make sure that I and my family are safe and have faith in this Creator that this Creator knows best.  

You can call me nuts lol or delusional but I will be an old man that is delusional or nutty lol. 

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## Rob Broad (Jul 16, 2004)

I am not an American, but I would be worried if I saw this happening in a plane that I was on.  I lost 2 friends in the attacks of 9/11, and ever since I pay more attention to my surroundings.  There have been warnings sent the US about more attacks, this in itself is enough reason to step up secuirty.  Whether or not you agree with Bush or not, or whether you are pro-war in Iraq or against it, it does not matter, there are attacks targeted at those embracing freedom.  They hate everyone who embraces freedom.


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 16, 2004)

Thank You Rob,I don't think the radical muslum's care what we believe either religiously or politicaly.I don't think they would be satisfied if the whole world became Muslums either.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 16, 2004)

Very nicely written piece of propaganda in my mind.

I have flown around the world since 9/11 and from what I have seen Detroit has some of the best security around. They have really good controlled check points, aka Choke points, that are hard to get by. If you even look questionable you end up on the physical inspection line. Detroit has one of the highest populations of Middle Easterns outside of the Middle East. The Metal detectors were set so that shoes would set off the alarm so you had to go through a personal wanding and pat down. To get through, I had to take off my shoes and belt and empty my pockets and have everything x-rayed, and inspected as I gathered it together on the other side of the x-ray machine. Once you are by these check points you are free to move around. 

So, is the problem that you could get onto a plane in Nashville TN and get no inspection or little inspection and then fly to Detroit? Maybe. So, all the paragraphs about no one checkng anaything, it was all done at the inspections / choke / check points. This is a clear case of people getting upset. Including the guy in the Yellow T-Shirt who was not looking well. Maybe he was scared as well by the others actions?

As to the moving around and no one telling them anything, this would have been because of some recent policy change or the Air Marshalls. I ahve been on planes that stopped their run way taxing because people rose to go to he bathroom. I was even on one that did a fly around until all were seated and the crew were seated as well.  Either this crew was totally new or something or someone other than them had given them direction.  As to the guy in First Class, they could have moved him. How do I know. They have moved me from such a seat when some raised a concern. I just smiled and exchanged with someone to get a nice window seat. A seat I would have preferred anyways. Yet, being a large male of unknown background and heritage (* US for 400+ years including some Native American Indian 6 or 7 generations ago *), wearing no jewelry and not drinking alcohol, and traveling alone, I have gone through many additional checks, and inspections by he crew(s), ticket agents, metal detectors.  If these guys got half the inspections I get, then the most dangerous thing they could have had was an actual McDonalds Burger (* in my mind this is an agent of Biological warfar  *), or a Pen.

Yes it could be a dry run. Yes it could be prayer time as mentioned by some. Yes it could be a lot of things.  What makes the blonde guy less likely to blow the plane up? Sorry, just ask Paul J, about us crossing from Cananda to the US. It was one of my easier crossings, My Blue eyes was with me, and yet I was still treated like a leper, and not a US born Citizen. 

I mean I could be rude adn tell you all to "Go Home White Man". Yet, I do not think that woudl solve anything, and would only antagonize people.

Yes Security can always be better. How much are you willing to pay for it? How much time are you willing to give up to quarentee that it works. How about this, everyone flying now must spend 36 hours in the airport at the cost of the traveler. This would guarentee that theri system would be empty and nothing they had taken could not come out with out inspection. All bathroom trips would be with an offical inspector, and you would nto be alone at anytime. How much is it worth to you?

Sorry for the Rant. My Opinion has no more weight nor any less than that of teh author of the article in question.


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## Feisty Mouse (Jul 16, 2004)

> The problem again is this is not USA vs Arabs. This is a Christian vs Muslim conflict if you look at terrorist training tapes that have been released look at what is painted on the torso's of the targets in rooms that are being used in terrorism camps. It is a Big Red Cross center mass.


 Is that a cross for Christians, or simply a target?  I don't think Muslims hate Christians.  If there are extremist religious groups out there (nice point, Mike, with the Robertson quote - if he were a Muslim people would have been all over him about that), they don't usually just hate one other group - it's about them versus everyone else - or about our entire nation (which, although evangelical Protestant sects seem to be very vocal in our nation, is actually composed of many many faiths) which represents something evil to them.


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## Flatlander (Jul 16, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Sorry for the Rant. My Opinion has no more weight nor any less than that of teh author of the article in question.


No way, Rich.  We know you well enough to lend considerable credibility to your opinion.  Just look at your reputation!  You have much to be proud of.


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 16, 2004)

There again much misinformation has been given to us by the media. There is nothing new under the sun in the course of Human Events. Muslims have always disliked or even hated Christian Agencies such as Government aka Kings and Presidents and our way of life. 

The same holds true for Christians disliking Muslims way of thinking and way of life. This conflict has been going on for 1000's of years.


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## Feisty Mouse (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm a Christian and I don't hate Muslims.  I have Muslim friends.  My faith tells me to love everyone, no matter who they are or even how they treat me.  (That's the hard part!)


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 16, 2004)

God will reward you for that!


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 16, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> There again much misinformation has been given to us by the media. There is nothing new under the sun in the course of Human Events. Muslims have always disliked or even hated Christian Agencies such as Government aka Kings and Presidents and our way of life.
> 
> The same holds true for Christians disliking Muslims way of thinking and way of life. This conflict has been going on for 1000's of years.



Yes, when A bunch of Christians decided to go on a Crusade and regain the Holy Lands back for Christianity.

Not realizing that that the Islamic culture had repserved much of the education and knowledge lost by the Western Society, and was part of the cause of the Renaissance?

Oh well.


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## KenpoTex (Jul 16, 2004)

If I had been on this flight I would have definately been concerned due to the odd behavior these men were exhibiting.  As far as the security measures go, I don't particularly care if we appear to be profiling these people.  *news flash* profiling is a big part of any law-enforcent/national security operation.  The perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks were middle-eastern; therefore, middle-easterners will be the ones that come under the closest scrutiny...sounds logical to me.  If the attacks had been committed by the IRA then we would have to be on the lookout for white Irish-Catholic guys (and gals).  But Nooooo, we can't run the risk of offending anyone.  Yeah, it would stink for every person of middle-eastern descent to be stopped and checked, I wouldn't want to go through it, but how badly to we want to prevent further attacks.  I can tell you right now that airport security procedures as they exist today suck!  I flew just this past weekend and could have easily gotten on the plane with weapons that would have been better than a box-cutter.  When I went through the checkpoint there were several middle-eastern men in their 20's ahead of me that were passed through w/o a second glance but the security-personel decided to stop a gentleman who looked to be about 80 who was wearing a US army ball-cap...yeah he looked like a terrorist.

On the subject of Muslim/Islamic fundamentalist philosophy take a look at this. article 

I thought it was interesting and thought provoking although I'd have to do some more research before I'll accept it (as you should do with anything you hear)

Okay, I'll stop my rant now.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jul 16, 2004)

one thing that always stands out to me, is the fact that the originator of the muslim faith was, by his own actions, a military leader. i am a non-theist, by the way.


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## Feisty Mouse (Jul 16, 2004)

The Apostles thought Jesus was going to topple the Roman Empire, too.  

I think that we all have these dark desires/drives to conquer, and fall easily into demonizing other groups.  I think we have to work hard at not doing those things, to act wisely.  Wisely does not mean walking foolishly into harm's way, but being careful.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jul 16, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> The Apostles thought Jesus was going to topple the Roman Empire, too.
> 
> I think that we all have these dark desires/drives to conquer, and fall easily into demonizing other groups. I think we have to work hard at not doing those things, to act wisely. Wisely does not mean walking foolishly into harm's way, but being careful.


I was speaking strictly from a religious studies POV. I think all religions are great. They are all good reading, just nothing I chose to subscribe to.

AJ


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## Feisty Mouse (Jul 16, 2004)

(OK, this is now a thread gank)

Have you read A Brief History of God? A religious studies major I know recommended it very highly - I haven't read it yet, but want to.

ETA: sorry for the thread gank.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jul 16, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> (OK, this is now a thread gank)
> 
> Have you read A Brief History of God? A religious studies major I know recommended it very highly - I haven't read it yet, but want to.
> 
> ETA: sorry for the thread gank.


I've read some michael malloy, joseph campbell, mircea eliade (sp?) and, sheeh, what's-his-name huston. . .I think huston smith. oh, but o answer your question, no.


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## michaeledward (Jul 16, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> Mr. Ward,I mean no disrespect,but after 9-11,all the pundents could talk about was that it could have been prevented.Now we have an incident that occured only a few weeks ago that many have found interesting enough that several news agencies have dicussed today and you seem to be cavalier about it.I really hope that I am just overreacting by being concerned about this.But,what if something does happen again?Will we see the same finger pointing?I'd rather be wrong about this now than be right when it does happen.


Gary, I do not take any of the comments on this board as disrespectful, unless they are obviously meant that way. 

By the way, my name is Mike Atkinson ... michaeledward is just a screenname .. michael edward Atkinson.

I am that cavalier about this. Of course, if I thought that what is being described in the article really happened, I might be a bit less cavalier. But, I don't believe the article. I think it is more like a kid pulling the fire alarm in school. 

I was on a Boeing 737 on September 10, 2001. And, if my flight could get off the ground, I would have been on a plane September 13, 2001 (I guess only Saudi's were able to fly that day ... I had to drive. 

I still say .. the story stinks ... Check out this seat chart on Seat Guru. 
http://www.seatguru.com/northwest/B753.shtml

Today (Don't know about 6/29/2004) NW327 was a Boeing 757-300. Seats 17 A, B & C don't really have a very clear view of 1st class seat 1A (and the author mentioned she watched this person several times). She also references 7 men standing at once and going to the front and rear lavatories ... the rear lavatories are 23 rows back. I just don't think that watching those locations is a easy as she is describes.

Lastly, (for now), something *will* happen again. I just don't think it is going to be airplanes. But, even if it is another airline attack, it is still safer than driving an automobile; it is safer than smoking; it is safer than being overweight.

I believe that those who jump to believe this story, rather than being a bit skeptical, have already allowed the 'terrorists' to win. You are allowing their tactics to affect your behavior. I am certainly not suggesting that anyone engage in obviously foolish behavior (I have a jewish friend who just signed up for a year long contract in Baghdad - FOOLISH), but to reasonably evaluate threats is something we all should be doing; and I think this story is *unreasonable*. 

Mike


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## Flatlander (Jul 16, 2004)

Mike - good research.  Man, you take this stuff pretty seriously.  On the subject of the "terrorists winning", you make a good point.  I also think that it's likely the next 'vehicle' of terror will not be an airplane.  Way too obvious.  Nonetheless - its all pretty freaky.


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 16, 2004)

Mr.Ward,thank you for that reply.I think I understand where you are coming from now.I guess being a cold war USAF(SAC) veteran,has messed up my thinking.I was trained for the most unlikely,but always possible scenerio,nuclear war.I always understood that the only reason why it didn't happen was our vast arsenal and our vigilance,but if it did happen,everyone at our base would be toast.So you see,our only chance of surviving the cold war was the daily understanding that what we do today prevents the catastraphy of tomorow.The best I can tell,it worked.That's why I don't take the luxury of being "cavalier" about any threat until it has been proven to be a non-threat.Another thing that motivates me was before 9-11,I read a story linked to the "drudgereport" about a bold statement that Bin Laden stating "that america was going to see destruction beyond anything they could imagine"(I don't remember the exact words,but that is close).For some reason,I believed him.About a week before I read that,I was in Bristol,Va and noticed three middleeastern men(wearing turbins with long hair and beards in the parking lot of Wal-Mart in a 1 ton Chevy dually P\U with Onterio tags.This all by itself made me suspicious.I couldn't help but wonder "Why are these people here?Why would they enter the U.S. from Canada?" The Oakridge facility isn't that far from us.I reported it to the F.B.I. who didn't take it seriously.When it happened,it took me 1 second to know that this was he was talking about.I wll never forget how I felt that day and will probably never get over it.So now you must understand why I must take information like this seriously.Like I said before"I'd rather be wrong about this today than be right about this tomorow"


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## KenpoTess (Jul 16, 2004)

Mod Note-
Moving thread to The Study as this is political and I'm  not 

~Tess
-MT S. Mod-


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 16, 2004)

This thread was NEVER suppost to be political.Since it has been moved.It has reached it's conclusion.


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## PeachMonkey (Jul 16, 2004)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> I believe that those who jump to believe this story, rather than being a bit skeptical, have already allowed the 'terrorists' to win.


 Even worse than allowing "terrorists to win", I think that this sort of fear mongering lends itself handily to abuses of power by scoundrels.

 It's natural for people to be afraid after that happened on 9/11 (among other acts), and I really can't blame people for being nervous and afraid.  In particular, I respect the desire of people like Gary (especially when they're hardened Cold Warriors) to feel the need to be "on alert" to help defend us.

 In the end, though, this sort of thing has been used throughout history by the powerhungry to justify tearing down the institutions of freedom that we claim to be striving to defend.  Orwell warned us of it, we've seen it in dictatorships throughout history (fascist, autarcical, and otherwise), and we're seeing it now with our current administration.  (To be fair, we also saw it with a lesser degree after Oklahoma City with the Clinton admin)

 Just as I think it serves us to be vigilant to terror, I think it's far more important to be vigilant against those in our own system who would strip our freedoms.


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## michaeledward (Jul 17, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> It's natural for people to be afraid after that happened on 9/11 (among other acts), and I really can't blame people for being nervous and afraid. In particular, I respect the desire of people like Gary (especially when they're hardened Cold Warriors) to feel the need to be "on alert" to help defend us.


It may be natural, but it does not follow that being afraid, nervous or in some other state of heightened alertness is *rational*. 

Some of this pervasive response, no doubt, exists because we watched the events of September 11, 2001 play out live on television. We were all very connected to that day.

The only time I can think of that even comes close to a similar shared experience is the Challenger. We all watched that; the solid rocket motors driving away, and then crossing over each other as the debris arced out of the sky and then accelerated like a stone falling of the tower of Pisa.

Of course, most of us knew we weren't going to be on a Space Shuttle any time soon. There is a big difference when an *airplane* was used as a weapon. Hell, we all know someone who has been on an airplane recently.

I do not believe it is rational for US Citizens in living in Joplin, Missouri or Oconomowoc, Wisconsin to fear acts of terrorism like those perpetrated on September 11, 2001. While it is possible that al Qaeda might strike in the American Heartland (or Suburbia), there are many more things to be afraid of in those communities. Some of which, they may actually have the power to affect change on.

If we all were able to get as motivated about preventing the timber and paper companies from building logging roads through some of our pristine wilderness areas as we are about watching olive-skinned people maybe our children would inherit a planet that actually works.

Thanks for listening to my rant. Mike


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## Flatlander (Jul 17, 2004)

I say, good thread, folks.  Thanks for the thread, Gary.


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## CanuckMA (Jul 17, 2004)

She lost me by 1) quoting Ann Coulter. and 2) the flight attendant telling the husband that Air Marshalls aboard were aware of the situation. First, more than 1 Air Marshall aboard any flight is more like a convention and second, no member of the flight crew, even if aware that an Air Marshall is aboard would EVER confirm or deny the fact to a random passenger. And as it has been pointed out, you can't observe that many people scattered over a lat=rge plane like that. Nic piece of scare propaganda.


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## PeachMonkey (Jul 17, 2004)

As many others on the thread have suggested, I believe more and more that this is a crafted piece of propaganda.

 See:

http://www.ludickid.com/0513.htm

 To sum: Asif Ali Khan & Party, a famous band (Asif is the protege of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, a worldwide legend) was forced out of three flights during a tour of the United States to *raise money for a US literacy charity* because they "looked suspicious".  The details mysteriously match the information that the author of the screed starting this post claim to have observed from her seat.

 Would I put it past Ann Coulter and/or some of her fellows to spin this incident?  I think you already know my answer to that question, my friends.


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## auxprix (Jul 17, 2004)

I would like to point out that the editorial section of the wall street journal has a very bad reputation. I make it a point never to buy a story when there are no sources listed.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 20, 2004)

ASSUMING... that the story is real... A few observations, right or wrong, this is what went thru my head reading that...


If I had observed that behavior from ANY group of people...

Black, White, Middle eastern, Asian, Hispanic, martian...

I would have been nervous as hell.  But instead of sitting on my *** and waiting for somthing to happen, I would have confronted one or more of those people and asked them what the HELL they were doing.  

At worst, if I was wrong, Id be sitting in some interrigation room explaining why I got out of hand on the plane for a couple hours, and have a few people poed at me for assuming they were up to no good.

If I was right... I may have either forced their hand, or caused them to abort.  If I forced their hand before a bomb was completed, yay me... we have melee on the plane, and hopefully a few people help out, and most of the passengers go home to their families.  If they abort, everyone goes home safe.

If it was fake, well... it was food for thought.


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## Ceicei (Jul 20, 2004)

I'm with Technopunk on this.  

I'm also surprised that the crew would allow people to stand around in the back or at the front for more than a few minutes.  When I get on the plane, the crew always tell me to sit down so other people can get by or whatever.   There is too much time before plane leaving and so "many things happening", too many inconsistencies that doesn't match with how airlines usually handle their passengers, so I am led to believe that this is just that, a story.

- Ceicei



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> ASSUMING... that the story is real... A few observations, right or wrong, this is what went thru my head reading that...
> 
> 
> If I had observed that behavior from ANY group of people...
> ...


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 20, 2004)

Okay...so the crew allowed the suspicious guys do all this stuff.  Not one tried to stop them.  Can we really expect this after 9-11?

The Air Marshall(s) didn't do diddly until after they landed.

The passengers didn't intervene or panic.

All of the suspicious objects passed inspection at the airport.  Now we might assume this was a "dry run" and they were practicing with a loaf of french bread and a Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese and a large fries.

The stewardess asks the woman for a description of the man in the yellow shirt.  Why?  An Arab in a yellow shirt sort of stands out...the stewardess could have gotten the description and seat number herself.

Snopes is checking it out, and here's an article by another skeptic that points out a number of things well worth considering:

http://www.donaldsensing.com/2004/07/casing-northwest-327-threat-or-hoax.html




Regards,


Steve


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## PeachMonkey (Jul 21, 2004)

Salon has another great article on this ridiculous "issue":

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2004/07/21/askthepilot95/index.html


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 21, 2004)

Good article.

Anybody notice how Michelle Maklin promoted the piece, though she couldn't find any substantial support for it?  

Its an election year...scare people, Mickey.  

Regards,


Steve


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## Don Roley (Jul 21, 2004)

http://afpc.asso.fr/wengu/wg/wengu.php?l=36ji&no=1

If this story is true, then the above link may be an explination.

We are being so well trained to look the other way rather than face accusations that we are racist that when something really does happen, it will be too late to stop it.

In the story the flight crew did nothing when seven members of the group all stood up at the same time when the plane was making its final approach and everyone is supposed to have their seat belts on. They then walked around the cabin.

Why didn't they do anything? Possibly because there have been many, many false alarms and there is the very real danger of multi million lawsuits being brought against the airline and the flight crew member that takes the initiative being fired.


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## Ceicei (Jul 21, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> http://afpc.asso.fr/wengu/wg/wengu.php?l=36ji&no=1
> 
> In the story the flight crew did nothing when seven members of the group all stood up at the same time when the plane was making its final approach and everyone is supposed to have their seat belts on. They then walked around the cabin.
> 
> Why didn't they do anything? Possibly because there have been many, many false alarms and there is the very real danger of multi million lawsuits being brought against the airline and the flight crew member that takes the initiative being fired.


Yet the possibility of a lawsuit because of injury resulting from walking around while taxiing when the passenger(s) should have been in a seatbelt is pretty high. I would think the airline would try to enforce the seatbelt rule for safety/liability reasons than just allow seven people to walk around.

- Ceicei


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## howardr (Jul 24, 2004)

http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/article_landing.aspx?titleid=1&articleid=714


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## michaeledward (Jul 24, 2004)

auxprix said:
			
		

> I would like to point out that the editorial section of the wall street journal has a very bad reputation. I make it a point never to buy a story when there are no sources listed.


This article, and a follow up were published in 'Womens Wall Street', I do not know if this publication is connected to the 'Wall Street Journal'.

Of course, an Editorial Section of any paper can print whatever they want, from any point of view; as an 'Editorial' is not 'News', but rather 'Opinion'.

Thanks for contributing. Mike


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## michaeledward (Jul 24, 2004)

Ms. Jacobsen has been making the rounds in the media. Yesterday, she was on the 'Radio Factor'. There was a guest host sitting in for Bill O'Reilly. As I listened to her recount the story I noticed a couple of ommissions as compared to the written page. 

When speaking on the radio, she did not claim a Flight Attendant informed her husband that Federal Air Marshalls were on the plane. Ms. Jacobsen did hint that the 'pilots' and 'higher-ups' were aware of the situation, but did not clarify that statement. I would love to have the name of the flight attendant that told her husband there were Federal Air Marshalls on the plane. I am wondering if that is legal, and guessing that it is not. For my safety in the airlines, perhaps there should be a prosocution concerning this accusation.

Further, she did not name any names of anyone else invovled; contacts with the airline, Los Angeles Police or Federal Agencies involved at the Los Angeles airport.

Of course, the producer of the radio show did not allow any callers to directly converse with Ms. Jacobsen; she told her story to the guest host, and left the program, then the show opened to callers.

It seems to me that Ms. Jacobsen has offered evidence to back-up her story about as clearly as Secretary of State Colin Powell offerred to the United Nations in January 2003; as one report put it . . .


> The 90-minute talk was laced with references to "numerous intelligence reports," "human sources," "an eyewitness," "according to detainees," "an al-Qaida source tells us," "a senior defector," and so on. By my count, there were more than 40 such veiled attributions and virtually no named sources.


. . . and with hindsight, we all know how that speech worked out.

Smoke and Mirrors ... Bread and Circuses.
Thanks. Mike


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## Flatlander (Jul 24, 2004)

How did the callers react - are people buying this?  Mike, what do you suppose would be the motivation to produce this story?  Is she getting paid?  Or is it just about promoting hate?


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## michaeledward (Jul 24, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> How did the callers react - are people buying this? Mike, what do you suppose would be the motivation to produce this story? Is she getting paid? Or is it just about promoting hate?


Don't know the callers' reactions ... I was lucky enough to arrive at my destination, and turn off the radio <Whew!>... Of course, as with most 'talk-radio', the producers screen the callers and only get 'ditto-heads'.

I believe that Ms. Jacobsen perhaps saw this group of Syrians and was truly scared. However, I also believe her fear was irrational. As she is a 'writer', she has spun her experience and fear into a tale for the telling. I also think it is a work that contains many elements of 'fiction'.

Of course, she is being paid. And she is receiving quite a bit of celebrity. Who wouldn't want to be where she is?

I am sure she is not trying to promote 'hate' ... I do believe she is trying to keep the Bush Administration in power.

Again ... I travel quite frequently, and this story just doesn't pass the 'Boloney Detector', in my humble (or not so humble) opinion.

Mike


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## Flatlander (Jul 24, 2004)

Oh, I didn't realize she was a writer.  That explains a lot then.  


Thanks!


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## michaeledward (Jul 26, 2004)

From her agent's website.

http://www.tla1.com/Talent/Annie_Jacobsen/ANNIE_JACOBSEN.htm


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