# Funding Education - Re: Why Socialism is Evil



## Bob Hubbard (Nov 20, 2008)

You get a water bill, an electric bill, a gas bill, etc.
Why not a police bill, a fire dept bill, etc? 
California and Oregon are both reportedly looking at programs that will charge you per mile driven.  Combine GPS and black box and phone-home tech, and it could work.

Make all education private too.  Charge each students family say $200/month (12 month payment plan), limit classes to 30 kids.


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## cdunn (Nov 20, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'd suggest a small retainer, then an itemized bill when used. Kinda like the 'delivery' fee and the 'use' fee on my electric bill.


 

Now, the real question is this: What happens when a poor girl in the ghetto somewhere gets raped, and runs up a 'law bill' of a $100,000 getting the rapist convicted, and can't pay it? Will you garnish her wages for the next thirty years to pay - punishing her for getting raped? Will you attempt to garnish the wages of a man that's sitting behind bars for the next twenty years, and might have ten felonies to pay off already? Will you force the police to do it anyway, and charge more to their richer clients, functionally socializing the process anyway? Will you set the man free when she runs out of money to keep him behind bars? Will you allow the police to create lawless zones, where they won't respond, because the residents typically can't pay the bill? Will you look the other way when organized crime moves into these lawless zones and implements order by killing everyone that doesn't answer to them?

On average, it costs approximately $10,000 per year to educate a child. Let's assume there's fat to cut somewhere, and you can do it for $9,000. What do you do with the child of a parent that cannot pay $750 per month?  Do you put him in a cut-rate school that might teach him how to read, write, and do basic math, and no more, and expect him to spend his life pushing fries at McDonalds? Do you tell him to F-off and act surprised when you find him pushing drugs or pimping whatever uneducated fifteen year old he can terrorize in one of those zones where the police won't go because the residents won't pay them?

In the old days, functions such as the law were socialized because the general order of society was in the interest of the politically powerful. In the modern day, functions such as the law are socialized because we recognize that for a for-profit function to exist, it can, and must be able to deny service to those who are unable to pay for the cost of the service and we find that these functions cannot be denied to those who cannot provide recompense, because the general order of society is in the interest of all.


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## shesulsa (Nov 20, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> You get a water bill, an electric bill, a gas bill, etc.
> Why not a police bill, a fire dept bill, etc?
> California and Oregon are both reportedly looking at programs that will charge you per mile driven.  Combine GPS and black box and phone-home tech, and it could work.
> 
> Make all education private too.  Charge each students family say $200/month (12 month payment plan), limit classes to 30 kids.



Our neighbors south of the border have a similar program for education and Oregon and Washington already have the per-mile-driven program for the vehicles on the road who do the most damage to them: large trucks (and, I think, school buses).  Licensing fees and vehicle registration fees and gas tax are supposed to pay for the upkeep and repair of the existing roads.  Sorry, we need to pay per mile why again? Oh, to keep it fair, I see.  

I believe in Washington and Oregon (I might be mistaken) we already have programs in place where if you get stuck on Mt. Hood or Mt. St. Helens and you have to be rescued, you have to foot the bill for the rescue.  If it isn't established, then it's definitely been talked about.



shinbushi said:


> As a Libertarian It should all be private business.



So ... the Libertarian way is survival of the fittest then, eh?  Private business paves your roads ... then they own the road and you have to pay a fee to use it each time.  If you can't afford to then you can't use it.  You can't afford to if you can't work.  But with unchecked capitalism and limitless executive perks, bonuses and salaries you can't get a job unless you travel far away ... but then, you can't afford to use the road. So you cut a new one.  Well then that interferes with each other's property rights and you have to negotiate easements ... but not everyone would have to comply because it's your problem you can't get to work or afford to use the road.  So you have to walk ... but then ... walking on the road comes with a fee too.  In fact, since private business owns the road, you have to wear a certain type of shoe to walk on it in order to preserve its quality. These shoes can be purchased for $300.00 per pair 200 miles from here.

Ya see what I'm getting at?  Pure libertarianism doesn't work either unless you'd like to live in third world status.  It would be kill or be killed, pay or get raped, die if you're poor.

The programs we have now - supplemental security income, disability income, welfare - though unquestionably exploited by some, have been put in place for a reason and that's not so that we can keep a rank and file of poor on the books.  It is to protect consumerism and thwart most poverty which keeps the economy going and helps to protect free enterprise.

Of greater concern is the limit on property ownership rights in America.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 20, 2008)

cdunn said:


> Now, the real question is this: What happens when a poor girl in the ghetto somewhere gets raped, and runs up a 'law bill' of a $100,000 getting the rapist convicted, and can't pay it? Will you garnish her wages for the next thirty years to pay - punishing her for getting raped? Will you attempt to garnish the wages of a man that's sitting behind bars for the next twenty years, and might have ten felonies to pay off already? Will you force the police to do it anyway, and charge more to their richer clients, functionally socializing the process anyway? Will you set the man free when she runs out of money to keep him behind bars? Will you allow the police to create lawless zones, where they won't respond, because the residents typically can't pay the bill? Will you look the other way when organized crime moves into these lawless zones and implements order by killing everyone that doesn't answer to them?



All very good questions, and all things that have happened in this and other countries as recently as, oh, today I'm sure.



> On average, it costs approximately $10,000 per year to educate a child. Let's assume there's fat to cut somewhere, and you can do it for $9,000. What do you do with the child of a parent that cannot pay $750 per month?  Do you put him in a cut-rate school that might teach him how to read, write, and do basic math, and no more, and expect him to spend his life pushing fries at McDonalds? Do you tell him to F-off and act surprised when you find him pushing drugs or pimping whatever uneducated fifteen year old he can terrorize in one of those zones where the police won't go because the residents won't pay them?



I used the following numbers to come up with my data.
1 teacher @ $30k per year
        Rent   for the classroom ($2,500 / month) $30k
Consumables $500   
===
Total $60,500 / year
Per month $5,042
$169 per month per student, rounded up to $200/month/student

Charities can of course front the costs, set up their own "public universities" that are supported not by tax dollars but by private and corporate sponsors (there are several in the US now btw)

Regardless, today with all our "free" education, kids still end up McD lifers, getting substandard education in substandard schools, pushing drugs etc.

Maybe if mommy and daddy were paying out of pocket little "Billy" might be 'encouraged" to go to school, and be more concerned when their little spawn is caught skipping.



> In the old days, functions such as the law were socialized because the general order of society was in the interest of the politically powerful. In the modern day, functions such as the law are socialized because we recognize that for a for-profit function to exist, it can, and must be able to deny service to those who are unable to pay for the cost of the service and we find that these functions cannot be denied to those who cannot provide recompense, because the general order of society is in the interest of all.



Well said.




shesulsa said:


> Our neighbors south of the border have a similar program for education and Oregon and Washington already have the per-mile-driven program for the vehicles on the road who do the most damage to them: large trucks (and, I think, school buses).  Licensing fees and vehicle registration fees and gas tax are supposed to pay for the upkeep and repair of the existing roads.  Sorry, we need to pay per mile why again? Oh, to keep it fair, I see.



Actually, it's just a cash grab to continue funding bloated and inefficient government under the illusion of public safety. 



> I believe in Washington and Oregon (I might be mistaken) we already have programs in place where if you get stuck on Mt. Hood or Mt. St. Helens and you have to be rescued, you have to foot the bill for the rescue.  If it isn't established, then it's definitely been talked about.



Works for me. 



> So ... the Libertarian way is survival of the fittest then, eh?  Private business paves your roads ... then they own the road and you have to pay a fee to use it each time.  If you can't afford to then you can't use it.  You can't afford to if you can't work.  But with unchecked capitalism and limitless executive perks, bonuses and salaries you can't get a job unless you travel far away ... but then, you can't afford to use the road. So you cut a new one.  Well then that interferes with each other's property rights and you have to negotiate easements ... but not everyone would have to comply because it's your problem you can't get to work or afford to use the road.  So you have to walk ... but then ... walking on the road comes with a fee too.  In fact, since private business owns the road, you have to wear a certain type of shoe to walk on it in order to preserve its quality. These shoes can be purchased for $300.00 per pair 200 miles from here.



Whoever owns the property makes the rules. Roads used to be mostly private, and they were toll roads. Drive through NY sometime, it's toll booth heaven. So's part of Ohio, and NJ and PA.



> Ya see what I'm getting at?  Pure libertarianism doesn't work either unless you'd like to live in third world status.  It would be kill or be killed, pay or get raped, die if you're poor.



Just like now.



> The programs we have now - supplemental security income, disability income, welfare - though unquestionably exploited by some, have been put in place for a reason and that's not so that we can keep a rank and file of poor on the books.  It is to protect consumerism and thwart most poverty which keeps the economy going and helps to protect free enterprise.



SSI is there because people stopped understanding how to manage their money and invest/save for the future. It's a poor system, and pretty much bankrupt due to half the pork being funded by it over the decades.

You want to thwart poverty, take 10% of your income, and start donating it to charity, or just give out cash to that bum on the corner. At least it'll be your choice, and not someone in Washington, and at least 100% not just 10% will get where it's intended to, and not to pay some paper pushers salary.



> Of greater concern is the limit on property ownership rights in America.



What about property ownership being limited to the government isn't fair?


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## cdunn (Nov 20, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> If I turn the soil, plant the seed, weed the garden, nurture the plants, and harvest the bounty, who has the right to take a portion of that from me, and give it to he who did nothing to contribute to it?
> 
> If WE turn the soil, weed the garden, nurture the plants, and harvest the bounty, together, then we all should share it. But again, who has the right to take a portion of that, who is not one of us, to give to another who is not one of us?
> 
> ...



Because we must. There is more to being human than being individual. For better or worse, we have bonded into complex societies, and loyalty and support of the greater society and it's tools of culture must become paramount to the individual, provided that the society continues to benefit the majority of individuals. There are far too many of us now for us all to pretend to be rugged individualists. 

Taxes are one part of the price of being a society, and the government is the provider of choice, due to stability, order, and willingness to do the things that no one else wants to, without tangible reward for the government as a whole. In theory, too, the government is accountable to the governed - a profitable corporation is only indirectly accountable to the customers, but directly accountable to its owners. 

The other part of the price of society is measured in human lives - Defending us from other societies, and from those within who have chosen to throw off the bonds of that society. In World War II, over 416,000 American soldiers died - You can be sure that the majority of them were drafted, as, after all, we tore ten million men from their homes and ordered them to fight. What right did we have to demand that they fight and die for us? Is that 416,000 murders? In 2007, 57 American policemen were killed by felons in the line of duty. What right did we have to demand that they die for us? Is that 57 murders, committed by society? No. (That it is 57 murders committed by felons is separate.) That too, is the price of civilization. We call them heroes, and bury them with honor, for standing willingly, or unwillingly, in the defense of our society. 

Now, we can argue until we're blue in the face about the proper services that government should be providing, but so long as it exists and provides services there will be taxes. The alternative, of course, is a structure over which society has little to no control, with modern corporations replacing the feudal barons of old. I'll pass. 


Also: The average US teacher's salary is nearing $50,000. You can expect that the total compensation package averages approximately $65-70,000 dollars. Without the security of a government contract, expect that to be higher - the teacher's unions aren't the UAW, but they do make monetary concessions to have things like tenure. That's $200 a month before rent (Or, realistically, buying / building a specialized building for 100 of these classes), heat, electricity, consumables, cleaning, books. And we haven't even started in on subjects that require specialized equipment - like chemistry, biology, music, shop (Hey, let's teach a kid to do something useful!). We don't have a cafeteria or a school nurse, which, while not technically necessary, are bloody good ideas to have around, when you have 3000 students sharing a building to defray costs. We haven't transported students to the school, either en masse with a bus, or $20-100 a month for your parent to drive you there 20 days a month. This stuff adds up... fast. Really, though, if you want to know what it costs, go look at the tuitions for your local private schools. The local Catholic school charges a yearly tuition of $7,400. They have never shown a profit. $620 a month. Downtown, where property is sort of valuable, it is $8,800 a year... and these schools are supported by the diocese and by significant alumni funds.


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## CanuckMA (Nov 21, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> All very good questions, and all things that have happened in this and other countries as recently as, oh, today I'm sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
1) teachers make more than 30K per year
2) where is your figure for other overheads? janitors, admin staff, non-teaching managerial staff
3) $2,500/month is too low. A school size building is expensive to build and maintain. You can't just look at classroom square footage, you have to factor in overhed cost od shared suqare footage (gym, library, lunch room, admin offices, hallways, etc)

Most private schools charge between 10-15K per student, and do not generate profits.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 21, 2008)

CanuckMA said:


> 1) teachers make more than 30K per year
> 2) where is your figure for other overheads? janitors, admin staff, non-teaching managerial staff
> 3) $2,500/month is too low. A school size building is expensive to build and maintain. You can't just look at classroom square footage, you have to factor in overhed cost od shared suqare footage (gym, library, lunch room, admin offices, hallways, etc)
> 
> Most private schools charge between 10-15K per student, and do not generate profits.


Funny.  In my business, I don't have a huge support staff, janitor, etc. I take out my wn trash, do my own paperwork and filing.  Run schools like a business, eliminate bloat, and aim for efficiency.

But lets look at this.

Hallways - why? 
Library - perfectly good one a 5 minute walk from me.
Gym - 5 perfectly good parks within 10 minutes of me.
Lunchroom - I have a nice desk.
Hall ways - Don't need em in a single room.
Admin Office - see desk.

My rent figure was based on a single room, located in a local strip plaza, run by the highest priced local landlord, in a good area. 

Lets raise the numbers.

Per Teacher	$75,000
Per Room Per Month (holds 30 students)	$2,500
Consumables per classroom	$500
total gross	$105,500
Number of students	30	
cost per month	$8,792	
cost per month per student	$293	

1 administrator per 10 classes		$75,000
1 maint. Per 10 classes		$75,000
supportstaff		$150,000
ss per month		$1,250
ss per month per studet		$42

So, $300-350 per month per student. $3,600 or so a year.

What am I missing?

Mind you, this works for K-8.  High school works better under a college type system, IMO.


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 21, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Hallways - why?



They're handy for moving kids from room to room.



> Library - perfectly good one a 5 minute walk from me.


Which will take you half an hour each way, when you're done zipping and unzipping snow suites for the Kindies. Adult library users will go bug nuts over kids coming regularly, and your principal will be dealing with it.



> Gym - 5 perfectly good parks within 10 minutes of me.


See above. Difficult to teach a range of motor skills in snowsuits in Buffalo! A nightmare of keeping watch over children if you're not loaded with extra adults. Also, this is physical education we're talking about, not gym. Children today have to be taught to be active. They have to be shown how to use equipment. Rules of conduct and fair play have to be constantly taught and reinforced, particularly as they have become irrelevant in popular culture and sport. The 'gym' is actually a living laboratory of ethics and cooperation.

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curriculum/elementary/health18curr.pdf

Trained gym teachers know quite a bit.


> Lunchroom - I have a nice desk.


Your room will stink of old food for the entire year. You'll have roaches and mice. If your school operates year round, it will never be clean again.



> Admin Office - see desk.


Runs from 8:00 am to 4:00 pm and beyond. Office staff deal with kids, parents, complaints, police, children's aid, community groups, contracts, ministry of ed, etc. The school office is a MASH unit.

Per Teacher    $75,000
Per Room Per Month (holds 30 students)    $2,500
Consumables per classroom    $500
total gross    $105,500
Number of students    30    
cost per month    $8,792    
cost per month per student    $293    

1 administrator per 10 classes        $75,000
1 maint. Per 10 classes        $75,000
supportstaff        $150,000
ss per month        $1,250
ss per month per studet        $42

So, $300-350 per month per student. $3,600 or so a year.

What am I missing?[/quote]

Insurance, plus people to fend off endless lawsuits
Hardware, software, networks
Social workers
Mental health specialists
Curriculum leaders to upgrade staff
Supply teachers
Special education -- your budget is pretty much blown if you have a child in your school who can't toilet him/herself
Literacy specialists
Subsidized lunches and breakfasts
Art room
Computer lab
Security

Bob,

I know that you're simply trying to think outside the box and stimulate discussion. Classroom based funding sounds like the right thing to do. It presumes, however, every dollar spent outside the classroom is misspent.

Sadly, I will be the first to say that anytime there is financial crunch in education, it will be felt first in the classroom. Your model is appealing in that I might not be subjected to well-intentioned communications from high above assuring a commitment to excellence while doing more with less.

You set your room at 30 students as a model, which, as an elementary teacher, concerns me. Get that under twenty, and we might witness absolute miracles in public education, and we just might avoid a lot of (but not all) remedial catch-up. This is the innovation that no one ever wants to talk about. I say turn public schools into palaces of learning. Make them spacious and clean and colourful. Put green grass around them. Suggest to children that going to school each day is an adventure of possibilities.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 21, 2008)

I'm looking at a 1 room school house situation with my base numbers.  This worked well for centuries.

Now of course there are things I'm assuming are there.  Desks, chairs, computers, text books.  

When I went to college, I bought a text book, new or used, that was pretty current.  How any schools are still using maps that show the USSR though?

Now of course, today the little red school house idea doesn't work in most cases. A centralized location makes more sence.

But I offered an alternate solution.

Desks, etc, ccould be provided by donation by corporations.
Microsoft, Apple, IBM, HP, Dell, and hundreds of other companies regularly donate billions of dollars in equipment, software and cash to education around the US.  Bill Gates and his wife have donated millions to libraries and other institutions.  Niagara Falls NY recently built a new state of the art high school. Every student got a laptop. It was heavily paid for by corporate donation.

My point is, the existing system where I'm taxed and part of that money goes for paying for crowded classrooms, outdated training materials, and 10 support for each teacher, hasn't really worked all that well.  

Maybe something else is what we need to really meet our 2st century needs?


BTW, thanks for pointing out the holes Gordon. Much appreciated.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 21, 2008)

You don't move into the 21st century by going back to the 18th.

The educational rift and the mass of the ill-educated dis-enfrachised is already getting scary over here, so lord knows what it's like in the States.

If you fail to engage the poor and working class in the system then the system fails. It's as simple as that.  If the system does not work to provide jobs at a living wage for the output of the education system, then the system fails.  It's fairly plain - keep the wheels oiled and turning or the wheels come off, no matter how fancy the canopy on the wagon is.

It takes a while for a nation wide 'organism' to die but it will die if it's not cared for and it is doing so.  

I've just watched a documentary about the Class system with our (now ex) Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, in which some young northern girls, of poor academic achievement, conversing with him, not only did not know what the Houses of Parliament looked like but had no idea who Gordon Brown was (clue ... he's now Prime Minister !).  

That is the level of failure evident in a system much more dedicated to the ideals of socialism than the USA has.  What black canker is lurking underneath the flashing lights and supposed wealth on your side of the Pond?


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## Big Don (Nov 21, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Our neighbors south of the border have a similar program for education and Oregon and Washington already have the per-mile-driven program for the vehicles on the road who do the most damage to them: large trucks (and, I think, school buses).  Licensing fees and vehicle registration fees and gas tax are supposed to pay for the upkeep and repair of the existing roads.  Sorry, we need to pay per mile why again? Oh, to keep it fair, I see.


 When CA talked about this a couple of years ago, one of the STATED reasons for it was the decline in the amount of tax revenue as direct result of having vehicles (all types) that get much better mileage than those in production when the taxes were first enacted. On quite a few trucks you can see "Apportioned" plates, they only pay taxes/fees for that portion of the year they are actually IN those states. 





> I believe in Washington and Oregon (I might be mistaken) we already have programs in place where if you get stuck on Mt. Hood or Mt. St. Helens and you have to be rescued, you have to foot the bill for the rescue.  If it isn't established, then it's definitely been talked about.


 Lets have a law that anyone doing excessively dangerous things is solely responsible for the consequences. I'd hope medical bills of the guys from Jackass weren't paid by the state...





> Of greater concern is the limit on property ownership rights in America.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 21, 2008)

The problems with education are complex and manifold.  They range from disparities in everything under the sun and a huge bloated beuracracy that sucks the life out of people who work under it.

IMHO, what Bob is doing is absolutely essential to FIXING public education.  We need to zero sum.  We need to wipe the slate clean and find our priorities.  We need to learn about the history of modern education.  We need to learn about the elite Foundations that control the whole leviathen for their own needs...I meant the good of society.

Then the real changes can happen.

We need to zero sum everything.  Not just the budget, but all of our assumptions, regulations, and objectives.

Or like Ron Paul says, dynamite the DOE.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 21, 2008)

I'm going to repost this post from another thread because I think it makes a good argument for keeping the funding for education public.



maunakumu said:


> The problems with education are manifold and I do not think people would have the time to read the 300,000 words or so that it would take me to describe them in detail. I'll give you a case for for spending money on items like this based off our basic assumptions regarding education in this country. You may disagree with those assumptions and I think it would be a great thread all by itself, but as we stand now, this is what we deal with in this country.
> 
> Before we begin, I want to discuss my perspective as a science teacher as I see items like the Hayden Planetarium. As a science teacher, I have a budget for my lab expenses that fluctuates based on the school I teach at. At one school, it was $0 dollars and I bought all of the supplies and lab equipment (and raised a family, payed a mortgage, and managed to have a little fun on a salary of 25,000 dollars a year). At another school, I had a budget of $500 dollars to fund a lab for a section of biology, earth science, and physics. At my current school, which is a private school, my lab expenses are funded completely by private donations and grants. I write letters and applications for money during my class prep in order to purchase the equipment that I need. As the economy has soured, these sources have all but dried up to a trickle.
> 
> ...


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## Big Don (Nov 21, 2008)

How has education in the US improved since the 1980 establishment of the US Department of Education?


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 21, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm looking at a 1 room school house situation with my base numbers.  This worked well for centuries.



The one-room school house is a model of education that has always intrigued me. My father was educated, partly, in such schools in the 1930s in rural Alberta. In terms of North America, I'm not sure they can be called 'centuries' old.

See http://pages.suddenlink.net/wvsfm/school.html which I found on Wikipedia, here http://www2.johnstown.k12.oh.us/cornell/states.html

This US link looks interesting...
http://www2.johnstown.k12.oh.us/cornell/states.html

They appear to be a late 19th to 20th century phenomenon as far as North America is concerned, which is what I had suspected. Expectations were significantly different. I don't have the figures at hand, but in the early 1900s a very small number of high school graduates in Canada made it into university. Similarly, a smaller percentage of our populations completed high school. On my dad's side of the family, one of five siblings finished high school, my dad's youngest brother, born much later, in 1950.

My mother had six siblings: four girls finished HS and went to nursing school; three boys left school and found good paying jobs. To my knowlege, virtually all of my cousins (something like 30) finished HS, and many went onto university. I find that pre-post WWII transformation quite an amazing leap. My parents later attended university in their 30s (1960s), making them the first of their generation to go beyond HS, and even then elevating them in their peer group.

My BA (1983) and BEd (2001) didn't impress anyone I knew.

My historical sense is, that along with an expansion of industry and everything else, there came an expansion of public schooling into the larger schools and boards we now have. Early one-room school houses probably met the needs of an agrarian economy in sparsely populated communities. Those schools, in all likelihood, were very homogeneous in every sense. School teachers were probably among the few considered to be highly educated in their communities. Getting everybody into school became a priority, and that part of it worked pretty well. Generations did move forward. In the simplest of equations (though adult illiteracy exists in alarming numbers in our time) people in North America are far more literate than they were in 1900.



> Now of course there are things I'm assuming are there.  Desks, chairs, computers, text books.
> 
> When I went to college, I bought a text book, new or used, that was pretty current.  How any schools are still using maps that show the USSR though?


That's a very valid point you raise. Since I'm a librarian, I'll use that as an example. It's prudent to weed out reference materials every five years. These are high end items. A really good single copy of a library quality reference atlas is probably about $250. You mentioned the USSR. Heaven forbid any of my collection is that dated; however, I can give you a more recent example for Canadian collections: April 1st, 1999 -- a new Canadian territory was created, http://www.gov.nu.ca/english/ Globes, atlases, texts, and countless non-fiction titles came off the shelves. Now, the flip side of this is that some print resources have become virtually irrelevant. My kids wouldn't look at a print encyclopedia if there were fifty dollar bills stuffed in it -- they go online. I don't fault them for that because I have looked in a phone book in the last five years. Nowadays, paid subscription databases -- essentially online encyclopedia -- prove more up to date and more effective.

In a very recent instance, we updated our grade eight geography books to the tune of $60 a copy. The concession was to purchase two sets coordinated to service six classes on a rotating bases. I've bought cars for less. In my elementary years (60s) I was educated in the same system, but the books were already there when you walked into the classroom. We didn't have teachers running up and down stairs with hundreds of lbs of books. Now teachers and staff can coordinate all of this, but coordinating the traffic of books, the endless minutiae and logistics, comes at the expense of teachers having a thoughtful conversation with eachother about what they are teaching. It comes at the expense of teachers having a little more time just to be with their students.



> Now of course, today the little red school house idea doesn't work in most cases. A centralized location makes more sence.


I think it evolved that way. As we're seeing right here in Toronto, bigger ain't better. In 1998 the former Provincial gov't implemented municipal and school board amalgamation here.  Six municipalities and six school boards of the former Metro Toronto became one city and one megaschoolboard -- TDSB, for which I work, now has 575 schools, placing it among the five largest in North America. This does not include TDCSC (Roman Catholic), nor the many independent schools. Within the last several months, active discussion has begun about breaking the board up into manageable bits.

There still is much to be learned from that era. In my board they've managed preserve Century School House, a one room school from 1910, which stands, ironically, the shadow of a large general hospital and a school board building. A retired teacher, Mr Church I think is his name, devoted much time to researching the era and the manner of instruction. My son went on school visits there twice in elementary school. The first day he had to sit on a stool with dunce cap from throwing stones at cows. Note: There were not cows, or pastures, surrounding the school, just post war brick bungalows for returning soldiers to settle.

Still, as my dad recalls, grade one kids listened to grade two lessons, and so on. The mysterious teacher's day book was essentially open to children for years. 



> But I offered an alternate solution.
> 
> Desks, etc, ccould be provided by donation by corporations.
> Microsoft, Apple, IBM, HP, Dell, and hundreds of other companies regularly donate billions of dollars in equipment, software and cash to education around the US.  Bill Gates and his wife have donated millions to libraries and other institutions.  Niagara Falls NY recently built a new state of the art high school. Every student got a laptop. It was heavily paid for by corporate donation.


I keep hearing about these. I never actually see them spread around -- a project here or there. A photo op and ribbon cutting. My readings of Jonathan Kozol's works on US education suggest an economically divided system of schooling, where quality of education seems to depend on property values. Per child expenditures vary from district to district. I'm suspicious of all this being righted by corporate largesse. The Socialist in me tells me that the private sector invest based on opportunity not need.



> At the time I met Alliyah in the school year 1997-1998, New York's Board of Education spent about $8000 yearly on the education of a third grade child... If you could have scooped Alliyah up out of the neighbourhood where she was born and plunked her down within a fairly typical white suburb of New York, she would have received a public education worth about $12,000 every year. If you were to lift her up once more and set her down within one of the wealthiest white suburbs of New York, she would have recieved as much as $18,000 worth of education every year and would lkiely have had a third grade teacher paid approximately $30,000 more than her teacher in the Bronx.
> Kozol, Jonathan. _The Shame of the Nation_. Crown: New York, 2005. pp. 44-45


Equal or equitable funding, as Kozol has pointed out throughout the years, is part of the equation. He sees the rest as an ethical issue of how much we really value all children.

Not to place Ontario above it all, I am seeing schools in a physical state of decay. I've also seen example of public schools in very affluent communities benefit from donations within the community. I once worked in an inner-city school where the income levels were so low that an attempted school fundraiser actually lost money. A Vancouver school, several years ago, sparked some controversy when it hired a fundraising consultant. You can imagine the ire that would have been raised, except that by the time the story broke, the bagman skipped town with the money!



> My point is, the existing system where I'm taxed and part of that money goes for paying for crowded classrooms, outdated training materials, and 10 support for each teacher, hasn't really worked all that well.
> 
> Maybe something else is what we need to really meet our 2st century needs?


I don't know what your mean by "10 support." I absolutely 100% agree with you. At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I see something quite diabolical in the failure of large public institutions -- the opt out. Keep the system expensive but just out of range of hitting its goals, and people will opt out. On both sides of the border, we've heard seniors and those without children say, "I don't have kids. Why should I pay for this?" Or in some cases, "Give me a voucher -- I'll spend it on a private school." If it doesn't work, cut it and gut it.

The less return perceived, the greater the opt out.



> BTW, thanks for pointing out the holes Gordon. Much appreciated.


It did come across as though I were trying to punch holes. I was sitting at a computer table over lunch hour staring at a carpet that should have torn out and replaced five years ago. Believe, I get where you're at. Thank your for replying the way you did -- I spent two hours on this post. What we're talking about here is very important to me.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 21, 2008)

Big Don said:


> How has education in the US improved since the 1980 establishment of the US Department of Education?


 
It hasn't.  The elite foundations wanted a DOE for decades and they created what we have right now.  The system isn't broken, it's working exactly as it was designed.


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## Big Don (Nov 21, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> It hasn't.  The elite foundations wanted a DOE for decades and they created what we have right now.  The system isn't broken, it's working exactly as it was designed.


Umm, not well...


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## Makalakumu (Nov 21, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Umm, not well...


 
Does an elite oligarchy want a populace that can read well and think?

Sorry, man, its working very well.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 21, 2008)

Gordan Nore, Big Don, et al...may I recommend a book to all of you.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm

This book will change everything you ever thought about education.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 21, 2008)

Here's a question.
Does is make sence that a kid who at 18 has trouble doing single digit math, tends to get more support and help, than a kid who at 10 is doing 4th year college calculus?


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## Makalakumu (Nov 21, 2008)

None what so ever.  I would argue that the bulk of our national tax priority should be to educate our citizens to the highest degree that they wish.  It is my belief that all education should be subsidized by taxation so that the average citizen is never required to pay any more, other then taxes, for education.

The government should stop bailing out parasite banks and start writing checks to kids and adults in order to build their futures.  Education sets everyone free and that is why we see a state of permanant poverty and decline.  The people who really run the show don't want this.

Here's the bottom line.  Education is information.  If you limit the amount of information to the amount of dollars one can spend, then you have just created a society of sheep.  The people at the top will almost always control the information that leaks down to the public.  This is what the Foundations do.  

In an environment of constant poverty, private donors fill the gap when institutions do their bidding.

Its as simple as that.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 22, 2008)

In Maxx Barry's novel "Jennifer Government" everything is privatized... But almost all the privatization is corporate sponsored.  For the example of the schools... Jennifer Government's Daughter goes to Mattel Elementary... the school is run and Funded my the Mattel Toy Company.  So of course everything is Barbie Pink and Hot Wheels, and all the school suppliles the kids purchase are branded: So little Sally doesn't get a Toy Story Lunchbox and Folders, mommy has to buy her Barbie.  Kids are exposed to advertising for Mattels Products only.  Could It work?  Perhaps.  Is it right?  

*shrug*


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2008)

Education is the most valuble commodity in the world. It lifts people out of poverty, it enriches peoples lives, it benefits every member of a society. How a society treats it's children and their education measures what value is put on children in that society.
You don't have children so don't want to pay for others education? Well you won't want to have medics available when ill, you won't want a lawyer when you have a problem, or a plumber or a mechanic etc etc.
Should education be paid for by society as a whole, absolutely and it should be the best that society can manage. Educating children to the highest standards possible is an investment for the whole community who will all reap the rewards.
Literate well educated people make better workers, they tend to be more law abiding, more prosperous and better citizens. Free good standard education should be available for all children and everyone should pay for it, it brings far more benefits to a society as a whole than probably anything else does.


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## Kacey (Nov 22, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Funny.  In my business, I don't have a huge support staff, janitor, etc. I take out my wn trash, do my own paperwork and filing.  Run schools like a business, eliminate bloat, and aim for efficiency.
> 
> But lets look at this.
> 
> ...



Well, let's look at this, shall we?

I am a specialist (special education teacher).  One of the key tenets of special education is that education needs to be more individualized so that these students can reach the level of ability as their peers - and most of them do.  But that individualization requires smaller classes.  Yes, it costs more per child to pay me than it does for regular education students - but as a taxpayer, I'd rather pay for education up front than for Welfare, group homes, or incarceration down the line; there's a strong correlation between 
education attained and the ability to be legally self-supporting - and no matter how much education costs for a special needs child, it's still cheaper to teach the child from birth to 21 (special education services start as soon as problems are noted, and continue until the child meets graduation requirements or turns 21) than it is to support the child for the remaining 60+ years of the child's life.  However, the farther away you put the special services from the general services, the more it will cost; I work with several different groups of students every day - and they are all in general education, with their peers (and predominately doing quite well) all but 1 or 2 periods a day; most, actually, receive their support in the general classroom - which is more cost-effective, but would be difficult if the classrooms were widely spread over multiple facilities.

Yes, there are students who are so high-needs that they are primarily self-contained - but even those students need to be with their peers, so they can learn age-appropriate social skills; a significant amount of research is what lead to the end of the specialty schools for each disability - and also the fact that it's cheaper to keep the vast majority of students in their home schools and provide general specialists such as myself in each school, while moving the specialists for the rarer disabilities around.  For example, my school has 3 full-time mild/moderate special education teachers (we teach primarily students with learning disabilities), 1 full-time teacher for students with emotional disabilities, and 1 full-time teacher for severe needs students (students who will need support most of their lives).  We also have a full-time speech/language therapist and a full-time psychologist.  The cost to have each of us travel about different facilities - in both time and money - is much more than the cost of having us there for the students.  In contrast, there is only one student in my school who is blind, and her vision services are provided by a vision therapist (who teaches her braille, mobility skills, etc.) who works in several different schools, because there's not a need for her full-time in my building, and the kids she works with are of all ages - elementary, middle, and high school - so having them all in one room would require considerably more staff to support their educational needs apart from the special training their visual disabilities require.



Bob Hubbard said:


> My rent figure was based on a single room, located in a local strip plaza, run by the highest priced local landlord, in a good area.
> 
> Lets raise the numbers.
> 
> ...



Besides what I talked about above?  As has been said, 30 kids in a classroom is a very high number - the middle school I work at averages 26, and that's too high.  The younger the students are, the lower the teacher/student ratio needs to be, or all you're doing is babysitting, not teaching.

Then, too, I work in a low-income, high-needs area.  We have students who miss school regularly because their parents need them to babysit their younger siblings - because if they don't, the parents can't work, thus can't pay the rent and buy food - how are these parents supposed to pay tuition?

What about facilities costs?  You've mentioned rent - but one of the biggest problems we have is the steady increase in utility rates.  

Books are increasingly expensive because of the availability of ways to evade copyright protection - with the exception of math, where students _must_ have a book to do homework, no teacher in my school has more than a classroom set - that means 1 book for every 5 students.  When the teacher teaches the same class 5 periods a day, that works - because only 1 in 5 students is there at a time.  But if you have one isolated classroom where the teacher teaches all subjects, you have to quintuple the number of books you need.

Specials, electives, whatever you want to call them - classes like art, music, gym, computers, foreign language - all require specialist teachers.  Again, it's cheaper to group the students together and rotate them through the specialist teachers than to move the teachers around.  In addition, if you have an isolated classroom, where do the kids eat?  What do the kids eat (over half my school is on free lunch, and most of the rest are on reduced-price lunch - they don't bring their own food, and their parents financially _need_ the school to feed them - free lunch continues through the summer for those kids).  When does the teacher eat?  Go to the bathroom?  It's illegal to leave the kids unattended, even momentarily.  When students are at specials is when the teacher gets to do all these things - not to mention the need to get a break from the students occasionally.

There's a joke that I keep getting sent; the amounts are a little off, but it'll give you the idea:



> I'm fed up with teachers and their hefty salary guides! What we need is a little perspective.
> 
> If I had my way, I'd pay these teachers myself -- I'd pay them babysitting wages. That's right -- instead of paying these outrageous taxes, I'd give them $3.00 an hour out of my own pocket. And I'm only going to pay them for 5 hours, not coffee breaks. That would be $15.00 a day -- each parent should pay $15.00 a day for these teachers to babysit a child. (Even if you have more than one child, it's still a lot cheaper than private day care.)
> 
> ...


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 22, 2008)

Heres the "info" on the Niagara Falls school
http://www.nfschools.net/10572032814738420/site/default.asp



> Achieved via a unique public-private partnership made possible via special legislation at the state government level, the new NFHS grew from an overgrown lot in the center of the city. Whereas the two previous schools had been located at opposite ends of town, the new NFHS was dropped down dead-center with one primary thought: Uniting the community. Virtually EVERYONE is bused in ... a big help in keeping any one from group claiming "ownership."
> 
> Not only did the students walk into a fancy new building, but they latched onto some of the latest-and-greatest bells and whistles, including school-issued laptop computers. Not to be left out, taxpayers benefited from a unique and creative funding process that allows the district to rent the building over a 30-year period, without having the multitudinous headaches of ownership. At the end of the lease the district can walk away, debt-free. Not a bad option to have.



Everything I've read/heard about the school has been positive.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 22, 2008)

Of course, my outline only covers "normal" kids.  Special needs would cost more, go somewhere else, etc.  Same with Genius kids who are currently often ignored and bored. Text books, etc were included in my costs, as were utilities.  Class room size was based on what I recall from when I was in school years back and teachers then did complain it was too high. Personally funding a smaller class increases the individual cost. A larger class makes it less expensive, at the cost of quality of training.


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## Kacey (Nov 22, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Heres the "info" on the Niagara Falls school
> http://www.nfschools.net/10572032814738420/site/default.asp
> 
> 
> ...



And yet, I notice that on the front page of their website not one, but two references to fundraising - Fundraising Request Form (click link) and NFHS Fundraising Calendar.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 22, 2008)

WNY schools do a lot of fundraising to fund the various clubs, events, and activites.  When I was in 5th grade for example, the class spent 6 months raising cash for a Washington DC trip.


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2008)

"I believe that education is the fundamental method of social progress and reform. All reforms which rest simply upon the law, or the threatening of certain penalties, or upon changes in mechanical or outward arrangements, are transitory and futile.... But through education society can formulate its own purposes, can organize its own means and resources, and thus shape itself with definiteness and economy in the direction in which it wishes to move.... Education thus conceived marks the most perfect and intimate union of science and art conceivable in human experience. 

Education is not preparation for life; education is life itself

The aim of education is to enable individuals to continue their education ... (and) the object and reward of learning is continued capacity for growth. Now this idea cannot be applied to all the members of a society except where intercourse of man with man is mutual, and except where there is adequate provision for the reconstruction of social habits and institutions by means of wide stimulation arising from equitably distributed interests. And this means a democratic society"

John Dewey

 Teachers as babysitters? No, teachers as a foundation of society.​


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## FearlessFreep (Nov 22, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> Gordan Nore, Big Don, et al...may I recommend a book to all of you.
> 
> http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm
> 
> This book will change everything you ever thought about education.



My wife is a big 'fan' of his, if you will.  One of the reasons we homeschool.

But you are right that the goel of the DOE and the public schools is far more along the lines of indoctrination of obedience rather than education for excellence.


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## Kacey (Nov 22, 2008)

FearlessFreep said:


> My wife is a big 'fan' of his, if you will.  One of the reasons we homeschool.
> 
> But you are right that the goel of the DOE and the public schools is far more along the lines of indoctrination of obedience rather than education for excellence.



As a public school teacher, I beg to differ - at least as far as teachers go; my goal is to teach my students to _think_; unfortunately, especially under Bush, the goal of the DOE appears to be to create cookie-cutter children who perform well on badly-written standardized assessments.



Bob Hubbard said:


> Of course, my outline only covers "normal" kids. Special needs would cost more, go somewhere else, etc. Same with Genius kids who are currently often ignored and bored. Text books, etc were included in my costs, as were utilities. Class room size was based on what I recall from when I was in school years back and teachers then did complain it was too high. Personally funding a smaller class increases the individual cost. A larger class makes it less expensive, at the cost of quality of training.



And yet, the so-called "special" populations perform better when in heterogeneous groupings with their peers, for at least part of the day.  What do you do with a student who is gifted in math, but dyslexic, and needs special instruction and support for reading?  Which "special" program do you send that child to?  What about a child who is normal intellectually, but has a physical disability?  How far do you subdivide disabilities?  Having a special school for each disability was tried in the 70s and 80s - and it was determined to be costly and less effective than inclusion - and yes, inclusion has it's own problems.



Bob Hubbard said:


> WNY schools do a lot of fundraising to fund the various clubs, events, and activites. When I was in 5th grade for example, the class spent 6 months raising cash for a Washington DC trip.



Fundraising for special events - certainly!  But the school up the street from me (not the one I teach at) is constantly fundraising to support its general operating costs - because funding cuts are affecting things like their ability to pay the utilities, and buy materials for the students.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 22, 2008)

Kacey said:


> As a public school teacher, I beg to differ - at least as far as teachers go; my goal is to teach my students to _think_; unfortunately, especially under Bush, the goal of the DOE appears to be to create cookie-cutter children who perform well on badly-written standardized assessments.


 
I am not a fan of our President George W. Bush.  He ****ed up a lot of stuff.  A lot.  Schools and the economy are two things in which he didn't solely **** up.  Those are two very important things in which the government merely took something bad and made it worse.

We need to have a frank discussion about the origin of modern schooling.  This isn't a partisan discussion.  There is no democrat or republican pulling the strings and creating this entire edifice.  There IS a particular ideology, though.  This ideology is what the people who really run the country beleive.

So, here are some tidbits from a time when the system of public education as we know it, was formulated.

President Woodrow Wilson, "We want one class to have a liberal education. We want another class, a very much larger class of necessity, to forgo the privilege of a liberal education and fit themselves to perform specific difficult manual tasks."

Benjamin Kidd, a member of the "Education Trust, " a group of foundation representatives from Rockefeller, Carnegie, Harvard, Stanford, the University of Chicago, and the National Education Association, in 1918, said, "school was to impose on the young the ideal of subordination."

Arthur Calhoun&#8217;s 1919 _Social History of the Family_ notified the nation&#8217;s academics what was happening. Calhoun declared that the fondest wish of utopian writers was coming true, the child was passing from its family "into the custody of community experts."

Here is John D. Rockefeller himself stating the mission of his Foundation, "In our dreams...people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions [intellectual and character education] fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, educators, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have ample supply. The task we set before ourselves is very simple...we will organize children...and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way.







Not according to the men who dreamed up this system.  She doesn't have plans that matter, these men beleived and the people who run our system believe that there is a place in society for this child.  They have created it because they know better.  You will learn to crush your own dreams and accept one that has been crafted for you.

Here are some quotes from the educational gods teacher's worship.  What we (I am a teacher) have failed to understand is that these men are nothing but the mouthpeices for the foundations that back them.  See Rockefellar's quote above and proceed.

Dewey&#8217;s _Pedagogic Creed_ statement of 1897 gives you a clue to the zeitgeist: "Every teacher should realize he is a social servant set apart for the maintenance of the proper social order and the securing of the right social growth. In this way the teacher is always the prophet of the true God and the usherer in of the true kingdom of heaven."

Here is the emminent Jaques Ellul on the place of government propaganda in schools, "Critical judgment disappears altogether, for in no way can there ever be _collective_ critical judgment....The individual can no longer judge for himself because he inescapably relates his thoughts to the entire complex of values and prejudices established by propaganda. With regard to political situations, he is given ready-made value judgments invested with the power of the truth by...the word of experts.  

The individual has no chance to exercise his judgment either on principal questions or on their implication; this leads to the atrophy of a faculty not comfortably exercised under [the best of] conditions...Once personal judgment and critical faculties have disappeared or have atrophied, they will not simply reappear when propaganda is suppressed...years of intellectual and spiritual education would be needed to restore such faculties. The propagandee, if deprived of one propaganda, will immediately adopt another, this will spare him the agony of finding himself _vis a vis_ some event without a ready-made opinion."​ 
All of this should make the hair rise on the back of your neck.  Things suddenly start to make sense.  The boredom, the constant shifting of subjects, the lack of application, the rote memorization, the humiliation...

School was designed by these men and many others who shared this ideology and that ideology is alive and well today.  Everything that is wrong with NCLB legislation is summed up in John D. Rockefellar's mission statement for his foundation in 1911.  

The problem isn't funding.  Schools are working just EXACTLY as they were designed.  The "problem" is that people desperately yearn for more and are looking for scapegoats because they are not getting it in regards to learning.  That is what we were taught to do.


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2008)

Are there any sites that give the curriculum American schools follow and what exams they do? I have no idea what is taught in american schools and thought it would be interesting to compare them with ours and other European schools.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 22, 2008)

Here is one list of National Education Standards.  There are several in the US.  All of them merge in the messy bureaucracy that is the DOE.  Different people take control and pick their flavor of the month.  With that being said, it needs to be understood that these are just words on the internet and on paper somewhere.  There are no laws that mandate that every school teach this.  The only law that mandates that anything be taught at the national level is No Child Left Behind.  This law mines the national standards and sets a minimum bar when it comes to performance in Math, Science, Reading, Writing and Social Studies.  Each state is responsible for designing tests in all of these subjects and attempting to hold schools accountable.


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2008)

I see! We have National Curriculums, and national exams taken at 16 and 18.
England,Wales and N Ireland's Curriculum http://curriculum.qca.org.uk/
Scotlands http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Education/Schools/curriculum/presentcurriculum

I don't know what you think about these, whether they are in line with yours, better or worse or something you'd like to see in your schools?

Do bear in mind of course we have socialist governments lol!


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## Makalakumu (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanks for the posting Tez3!  After a quick glance, I can see that the standards that you posted and the ones that I posted follow pretty closely the standards set out by the United Nations.  I've looked at a lot of other English speaking country standards and they are all sharing the same characteristics.  My guess is that multi-national foundations are pushing a globalized educational agenda, but that's something I'll have to research in order to confirm.


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> Here is one list of National Education Standards. There are several in the US. All of them merge in the messy bureaucracy that is the DOE. Different people take control and pick their flavor of the month. With that being said, it needs to be understood that these are just words on the internet and on paper somewhere. There are no laws that mandate that every school teach this. The only law that mandates that anything be taught at the national level is No Child Left Behind. This law mines the national standards and sets a minimum bar when it comes to performance in Math, Science, Reading, Writing and Social Studies. Each state is responsible for designing tests in all of these subjects and attempting to hold schools accountable.


 
I had a look at the 'no child left behind' link and was left rather insulted for my Cypriot friends! That's ridiculous comparing Cyprus to a third world country! It has an advanced thriving economy, is a member of the Commonwealth and the European Community. It's per capita GDP is $46,865, 7% of that is spent on education. It has the highest percentage of citizens of working age who have higher-level education in the EU at 30% which is ahead of Finland's 29.5%. There are 11 universities on the whole island which is three fifths the size of Connecticut.

 It's a small place but certainly one of the most and oldest civilised places in the world. Where does the White House think it is?


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## Makalakumu (Nov 22, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I had a look at the 'no child left behind' link and was left rather insulted for my Cypriot friends! That's ridiculous comparing Cyprus to a third world country! It has an advanced thriving economy, is a member of the Commonwealth and the European Community. It's per capita GDP is $46,865, 7% of that is spent on education. It has the highest percentage of citizens of working age who have higher-level education in the EU at 30% which is ahead of Finland's 29.5%. There are 11 universities on the whole island which is three fifths the size of Connecticut.
> 
> It's a small place but certainly one of the most and oldest civilised places in the world. Where does the White House think it is?


 
Most Americans couldn't find Cyprus on a map.  It sounds exotic, so it must be whatever the White House says.  The words of Jacque Ellul (posted above) come back and haunt us.

BTW - Cyprus sounds like a pretty nice place to live.


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> Most Americans couldn't find Cyprus on a map. It sounds exotic, so it must be whatever the White House says. The words of Jacque Ellul (posted above) come back and haunt us.
> 
> BTW - Cyprus sounds like a pretty nice place to live.


 
It is, I lived there for a little while when in the RAF. It's not exotic it's in the Mediterranean, they speak Greek in the southern part, Turkish in the north, English just about everywhere. It's a very big tourist island, http://www.cyprus.com/.
It's where Aphrodite was born out of the sea and where Richard the Lionhearts wife Berengaria came from. It's been around and civilised for a couple of thousand years longer than America lol!


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 22, 2008)

Kacey said:


> ...Fundraising for special events - certainly!  But the school up the street from me (not the one I teach at) is constantly fundraising to support its general operating costs - because funding cuts are affecting things like their ability to pay the utilities, and buy materials for the students.



This prompted the formation of an Ontario-based group, People for Education: http://www.peopleforeducation.com/As I recall the story in the papers in the 1990s, a beleaguered principal went to the PTA and asked for funds to augment textbooks. They said he could have the funds, but people were going to have to hear about it.

If you have one school that uses its fundraising surplus to send kids on trips, and another to maintain its day-to-day operation, you essentially have different classes of schools within the same system. Kacey, you're right, it's not Rep / Dem issue (or whatever terminology one chooses); it speaks volumes, however, of how children are valued in a public system.


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## Kacey (Nov 22, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> I am not a fan of our President George W. Bush.  He ****ed up a lot of stuff.  A lot.  Schools and the economy are two things in which he didn't solely **** up.  Those are two very important things in which the government merely took something bad and made it worse.


I am by no means saying that Bush is the _source_ of the problem - but he certainly added significantly to it with his "landmark legislation".  

There is a clear and evident class system in the public schools - especially in states like Colorado, where most of the funding is local rather than state-wide; communities with more money have better schools, because they are both more willing and more able to fund them.  In addition, as a general statement (there are, of course, exceptions) better educated parents make more money - and parental level of education is strongly correlated with student level of achievement (note that I say _correlated_ - not _causal_).

Are there governmental problems with the educational system in the US?  Damn straight there are.  There are also societal problems with the educational system in the US.  Many Americans are not willing to pay up front for education - and instead they pay - and pay more - on the back side for programs to prop up those not prepared by their families, communities, and schools to be successful in life, as I said before, through programs such as Welfare and much of the judicial/prison system.

We, as a society, need to impress upon our leaders at all levels that education needs to be a priority in this country, and that it needs to be changed, systematically and strategically, or nothing is going to change.  There are all sorts of wonderful programs and movements in place across this country - but they are largely fragmented and uncoordinated.  I've been to training after training claiming to have "the answer" to the needs of my students - and they all have great information, and most of them echo each other.  I went to one last week that purported to have "the answer", and there was nothing in it that I haven't seen multiple times before - in a different format, perhaps, or with a different emphasis - but none of it was new.  We need to quit following fads and the "latest research", and work together for our children and our future - because they're going to run the country when we all retire.  

More than that, education needs to be a priority across all levels of society - and it's not a priority in too many sectors; I have a student now who went to court last week because he has attended school 49% of the year so far - the judge's ruling?  His mother has to come to school with him for a week... the fact that this was tried last year (when his attendance was around 65%) and she was kicked out halfway through the first day for being disruptive notwithstanding.

But right now, education is _not_ a priority for many people, and the perceived failings of the education system (some truly the fault of the system and some not) are a big part of _why_ so many people don't want to fund education.  And it's cyclical - the more people see the schools as failing, the less support - financial, social, physical, etc. - they will provide to the schools, and the less students will see school as important - and we will continue to spiral downward.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 22, 2008)

I agree with you on just about every point.  The point of my long post above is that there is a group of well connected, very powerful, individuals who like the system exactly the way it is.  THAT is why it doesn't change.  It's not that people don't care, everyone WANTS to be successful and prosperous, that's not in the best interest of the oligarchy though.  

The bottom line is that the Foundations that gave us our modern education system still exist.  One hundred years ago they openly talked about creating a system to dumb people down and create a new social order of slaves.  They still run the show and they haven't changed their game plan.

If we want to change the system, we need to know exactly what has to change...

...and then we need a revolution.


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 22, 2008)

Kacey said:


> ...There is a clear and evident class system in the public schools - especially in states like Colorado, where most of the funding is local rather than state-wide; communities with more money have better schools, because they are both more willing and more able to fund them.


This has been well-documented by Kozol and others. The disparities under this model are eye-popping. In and around 1990 the state education systems of Kentucky, New Jersey, and Texas were successfully challenged in the courts. I know that the KY system for sure, was ruled unconstitutional in the State Supreme Court. As you point out, Kasey, the problems in US education predate George Bush.



> There are all sorts of wonderful programs and movements in place across this country - but they are largely fragmented and uncoordinated.  I've been to training after training claiming to have "the answer" to the needs of my students - and they all have great information, and most of them echo each other.  I went to one last week that purported to have "the answer", and there was nothing in it that I haven't seen multiple times before - in a different format, perhaps, or with a different emphasis - but none of it was new.  We need to quit following fads...



I relate very strongly to this comment. I am sick of hearing the words 'success' and 'excellence' bandied about so much in describing model programs of old ideas whose worth or lack thereof was proven decades ago. Pick one that works, fund the Hell out it, and give to all the kids. 

As I said, somewhere above, get those class sizes down to levels expected in affluent suburban schools, or those enjoyed by private academies, and watch literacy go up... everywhere. There is no dearth of information on teaching children to read and write or make computations. There is no latest thing we need to discover. Everything we need to do, we already know how to do.



> But right now, education is _not_ a priority for many people, and the perceived failings of the education system (some truly the fault of the system and some not) are a big part of _why_ so many people don't want to fund education.  And it's cyclical - the more people see the schools as failing, the less support - financial, social, physical, etc. - they will provide to the schools, and the less students will see school as important - and we will continue to spiral downward.



As I suggested above, there is an 'opting-out' trend. Affluent families create special charter schools, school their children in suburban enclaves, or simply send their kids to private schools. Parents who fared poorly look at the school they themselves went to, come back into it with their own kids, and come the conclusion it's not going to do a better job for their children.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 22, 2008)

I think we should force all our children into public service as part of their academic training.

Oh wait.  Someone else had that idea.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 22, 2008)

Here are the UNs plans for education in the United States.  Notice the collaboration between the DOE and UNESCO.

Here are UNs plans for every nation's education system.  This page gives direct links to nations in Europe and North America.

The side bar on the left will take you to any region in the world.

Interesting reading, especially considering the fact that the same Foundations that gave us our modern education system, also gave us the UN.  Lots of pretty language couching the same ideology, IMO.


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