# Are you religious yes? No?



## donald1

I'm christian,  I've been going to church since I was little I don't even know how young.  I was blessed to be born with a Christian family.  But I wonder what it would be like if they weren't christian if they were not i might not be christian...  Maybe later in life but I don't know...  What my curiosity is are you religious,  yes or no and if you are would things be different if you grew up with a different background/family or if you are not religious would it be different if you grew up with a different background/family


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## Transk53

donald1 said:


> I'm christian,  I've been going to church since I was little I don't even know how young.  I was blessed to be born with a Christian family.  But I wonder what it would be like if they weren't christian if they were not i might not be christian...  Maybe later in life but I don't know...  What my curiosity is are you religious,  yes or no and if you are would things be different if you grew up with a different background/family or if you are not religious would it be different if you grew up with a different background/family



The latter is something one wished for at an early age. I have banished my past so I will speak, or write, on the former. In many respects I could be counted as being religious. I just not believe in the Christian  God or other beliefs. It is my belief that all particles are inter-connected in way that binds the very fabric of being together. I am not going to proffer any thoughts as I simply cannot scientifically back them up. However, I am the stuff of the Stars. I do not wish to disparage you're beliefs, so I will not. What I do believe is that the issue of God, goes so deep that none of us can truly understand, we of course have to go beyond the threshold, but that does mean in spirit, that is in belief, which we simply cannot quantify.


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## donnaTKD

i don't go to church if that's what you mean by being religious.

there are things that i believe in but for me the bible is outdated and when you consider that everything evolves then the bible just doesn't stack up.  the world wasn't created in 7 days it took many many millions of years to create.  people have been around for many thousands of years before jesus was even thought of so to say that jesus is where time starts etc... is just plain wrong cos jesus's had parents and they had parents and their parents had parents so the bible is just not right on many levels.

like it or not but i don't believe and these are my opinions and thoughts -- your thoughts are your thoughts and your beliefs are exactly that --- we are all individuals at the end of the day.

one thing i absolutely hate is when some bible worshipper tries ramming their views down my throat - that really hacks me off.


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## arnisador

No, I am not and was never religious. I went to church with my parents but it never rang true to me.


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## hoshin1600

i grew up catholic and have a very religious family including all my aunts and uncles. i went to chuch every sunday untill i was about 20.  at that point i began seriously listening to what was being said there and the more i listened the more it infuriated me. i know not everyones experience will be the same as mine but i found i had my own beliefs on what is right and wrong and the messages i was being told thru the church was full of lies, self appointed rightous bias, condamnation and intolerance toward other people and other beliefs.  this did not seem like the message of Jesus.  at the age of 14 i began reading about Zen and Buddhism and once i had the courage to accept my own convictions,  everything clicked for me.  i began reading the bible in a new kind of way and understanding it in a way that made sense to me but was not the way the christian religion interprets it.  i got involved with an authentic Rinzai school of Zen and even taught Zen for a time.  my wife is from Thai land and is Buddhist and i consider myself Buddhist if someone asked, but in truth I do not believe in an after life and i do not believe in reincarnation.  i do believe in the possibilty of something like a heaven, explained thru scientific string therory that there are 10 dimensions and we have a muti-verse.  so it might be possible for our 3 dimensional bodys to die and "something" of us to continue in the other dimensions.  but i do not believe in a creator or God.  so at this point i am not sure if i am religious or spirtual or something else. 
"we know so little about how to co-exist peacefully with other humans, let us pay attention to living in harmony with our brothers and sisters and let what ever happens after death take care of itself"
credited to Confucius but not sure


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## Dirty Dog

To quote the Great Philosopher George Carlin...

I used to be Catholic, now I'm an American.


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## jezr74

Christian family until about 12, now most of my family is atheist and my father still thinks he's Christian. 

I personally would have preferred to have been raised in an atheist family environment like my children are now. As some ideologies are now programmed into me that I still struggle having to un-program.


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## EddieCyrax

My definition:

Religious - man-made organizations of like minded individuals that share similar beliefs.

I am not religious. Most thing from my experience created by humans contains an agenda.  

I am Agnostic.  I believe in a higher power and am very spiritual.

I too was brought up Catholic.  My family continues to follow this faith.

As I got older and learned more about others belief systems, learned more about human history, and witnessed the agenda of men, I grew further away from any organized religions and modified my beliefs.

Good luck on your journey....


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## Buka

I am a "praise the lord and pass the ammunition" kind of guy. Given the choice, I'll take the ammunition....until right at the end when I think I'm dying and then I'm sure I'll be very religious. Devout, even.


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## Hong Kong Pooey

Simple answer is no I'm not.

I attended CoE church services as kid with the school & cubs and stuff but the Christian bible just never struck me as being that believable. 

In fact I don't really understand how any modern person with a questioning mind, ability to reason, and exposure to things like books, an education and the internet (in short all the scientific knowledge that's out there on things like evolution, geology, astronomy etc.) can believe in something fantastical that contradicts this knowledge just because it was written a few hundred/thousand years ago. But each to their own of course.

Having said that I'd describe myself as agnostic rather than atheist as I'm not saying there is no God (or Gods), but I'll need proof before I believe in any of them - and currently no such proof exists that I'm aware of.

My parents aren't religious but my grandparents were.


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## Makalakumu

My parents baptized me into the Catholic church very shortly after I was born and I performed a few of the sacraments as a child.  By about 8 years old, I realized that the stories didn't make any sense.  I still went to religion classes at my parents behest, though.  I remember asking all kinds of questions to the Sisters who taught our classes.  For example, I asked, how could a loving god damn people to the pits of hell for all eternity for not believing in him?  Why did it have to be a "him" at all?  What about all of the other gods that people believed in?  And what exactly happened with the Ark?  The dinosaurs lived way before humans, so how was that even possible?  

By the time I was 12, I had had enough of religious classes and told my parents that I refused to go anymore.  I told my mother that I didn't believe in God and she cried and then I turned around and pretended for a while longer so I could be a Boy Scout and not make the people in my family upset.  I even had a short stint as an Altar Boy!  It was around the time of Confirmation that I quietly told my parents that I was no longer going to church and that I really didn't believe in God.  

They urged me to learn more about religions and try something else, because they felt that a good person needed to have that spiritual core in order to be moral in this world.  I followed their advice and learned as much as I could about different religions.  I became fascinated with Eastern Religions in High School because of my martial arts training and read a lot about Buddhism and Taoism.  When I got to college, I was exposed to philosophy and ethics and that pretty much ended my participation in any religion.  Based on a few philosophical principles, I knew that there not only was no such thing as a God, but that such a being could never exist.  Gods are self contradictory propositions that explode upon rational contact like balloons and needles.

This is when I first used the term atheist to describe myself.

Moving forward, it's been very interesting raising my own children and teaching them about religion.  My children love learning about mythology and religions, but we treat all of them to the same rational analysis that we apply to other areas in our lives.  We ask questions like, what exists?  How do you know?  Do things exist if you don't know about them?  Does anybody know something if there is no evidence?  I don't come right out say that there are no gods, but I do treat them as stories.  My son and I like to joke about converting to Odinism and we talk about what that religion must have been like.  We are friends with lots of religious people and I think the lesson we try to get across to them is that people believe in all kinds of different things.  Most of it, if not all, might not make any sense to you, but it's still important to them and it's important that you don't devalue them as a human being for believing in one of those things.  

In my ideal world, I would like to see religion fall away from humanity as a relic of our irrational and violent past, but I don't see that happening in my lifetime or even my children's lifetimes.  So, instead I practice religious tolerance, sufferance, and camouflage.  Tolerate the religions that are harmless.  Suffer those that are annoying.  Hide from the dangerous ones.


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## donald1

There's a lot of good posts,  I like hearing people's opinions on things,  there's no two exact opinion


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## jezr74

donald1 said:


> There's a lot of good posts,  I like hearing people's opinions on things,  there's no two exact opinion



Yeah, I've found it interesting too.

Do you think your a spiritual person as well?

I've met god fearing people before, but have never found them to be spiritual, and then I've met people I've thought spiritual from different denominations (inc. Christians) but would hesitate to call them religious.


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## jezr74

Buka said:


> I am a "praise the lord and pass the ammunition" kind of guy. Given the choice, I'll take the ammunition....until right at the end when I think I'm dying and then I'm sure I'll be very religious. Devout, even.



You obviously haven't read Job 28:28. :yoda:


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## ST1Doppelganger

I was brought up as Christian and went to multiple hours of Sunday school and church every Sunday, till the church turned on us when my Mother & Father got a divorce in the mid 80's. 

If anything my Chinese art studies has opened my mind up to Taoism and Buddhism so if I was going to dedicate time to study a religion it would be one of those two since I feel they would be the best suiting religion for me. 

I don't consider myself a religious person and don't believe in an afterlife but i do believe in spiritual entities and different dimensions if that makes any since.


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## Xue Sheng

> Are you religious yes? No?



Maybe. And that is actually a serious answer



donald1 said:


> I'm christian,  I've been going to church since I was little I don't even know how young.  I was blessed to be born with a Christian family.  But I wonder what it would be like if they weren't christian if they were not i might not be christian...  Maybe later in life but I don't know...  What my curiosity is are you religious,  yes or no and if you are would things be different if you grew up with a different background/family or if you are not religious would it be different if you grew up with a different background/family



Raised in a Protestant family, was married to and then later engaged to another Catholic and at one point went to a Catholic church. Now I live in a mostly Buddhist household, studied Taoism and Shinto..... not exactly sure what I am at this point


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## Transk53

ST1Doppleganger said:
			
		

> I don't consider myself a religious person and don't believe in an afterlife but i do believe in spiritual entities and different dimensions if that makes any since.​



Yeah, a different dimension though, is just a continuation. The chance to live the same life, even though up stairs it feels different.


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## donald1

jezr74 said:


> Yeah, I've found it interesting too.
> 
> Do you think your a spiritual person as well?
> 
> I've met god fearing people before, but have never found them to be spiritual, and then I've met people I've thought spiritual from different denominations (inc. Christians) but would hesitate to call them religious.



Sadly I no longer attend a regularly attended church; I try donate to charity or give blood to make up for it.  But I pray every day and do my best to follow the rules if I'm not christian for the lack of seeing the church then definitely spiritual


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## Transk53

donald1 said:


> Sadly I no longer attend a regularly attended church; I try donate to charity or give blood to make up for it.  But I pray every day and do my best to follow the rules if I'm not christian for the lack of seeing the church then definitely spiritual



Spiritual, the channel. The rest, well that is you!


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## oftheherd1

I think most members of MT know that I call myself Christian.  I believe in the Bible.  I believe in Christ's sacrifice for my sins, and have asked him into my heart. I try to live as the Bible tells me I should live, but am not as successful at that as I wish I were.  

If that makes me religious, then I am.  If that makes me spiritual, then I am.

EDIT:  I did not answer all of your questions.  I also grew up in a Christian family.  My father was a Methodist, my mother a Christian (the denomination), and mostly attended different churches.  My father was very much into music and attended other denominations to sing in their choirs.  Sometimes I attended church with my father, but most often with my mother, at the Christian church I consider myself to have grown up in.  But my mother and father also sometimes attended the same church together.  The church my father went to the last years of his life, as the choir director, was a second church to all of us.

If my family had not been religious, or of a non-Christian religion, I have no idea what I would believe in today.  I would hope Christianity.  Having grown up the the mid-west, I certainly would have been exposed more to some form of Christianity than anything else.  I thank God that I was raised by believing parents.  No doubt that made it more likely for me to be Christian.


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## Argus

Xue Sheng said:


> Maybe. And that is actually a serious answer
> 
> 
> 
> Raised in a Protestant family, was married to and then later engaged to another Catholic and at one point went to a Catholic church. Now I live in a mostly Buddhist household, studied Taoism and Shinto..... *not exactly sure what I am at this point*



A student.


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## Shai Hulud

I was raised in a loose Muslim family before moving overseas. I've since converted to Orthodox Christianity and am probably religious in the conventional sense of it, yes. 

I don't know if I'll be returning home.


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## Sub Zero

Catholic.


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## PhotonGuy

donald1 said:


> I'm christian,  I've been going to church since I was little I don't even know how young.  I was blessed to be born with a Christian family.  But I wonder what it would be like if they weren't christian if they were not i might not be christian...  Maybe later in life but I don't know...  What my curiosity is are you religious,  yes or no and if you are would things be different if you grew up with a different background/family or if you are not religious would it be different if you grew up with a different background/family



I am a Christian and according to what I've been taught, to be a Christian means that you realize you're a sinner and accept Jesus Christ as your savior. Some denominations teach different beliefs. The Catholics teach that you need to keep going to confession and that you have to do certain deeds, sacraments I believe they're called. The churches I've been to, however, don't teach that. They teach that you've got to realize you're a sinner and accept Jesus Christ as your savior and that's it, its a one time thing and its permanent. Salvation is a gift freely given and all you have to do is accept it. Its not something to be earned as some churches teach.


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## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> I am a Christian and according to what I've been taught, to be a Christian means that you realize you're a sinner and accept Jesus Christ as your savior. Some denominations teach different beliefs. The Catholics teach that you need to keep going to confession and that you have to do certain deeds, sacraments I believe they're called. The churches I've been to, however, don't teach that. They teach that you've got to realize you're a sinner and accept Jesus Christ as your savior and that's it, its a one time thing and its permanent. Salvation is a gift freely given and all you have to do is accept it. Its not something to be earned as some churches teach.



No.  Not even close to the teachings of the Catholic Church.  Though it's a bit off topic, I'm not willing to let it slide.  Where to begin?

The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved through the intercession and perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  Neither faith nor deeds alone can gain us heaven -- and even both deeds and faith wouldn't be enough without Christ.  The 7 Sacraments are outward signs of God's Grace, instituted by Christ.  There are 3 Sacraments of Initiation: Baptism, which removes original sin and brings into a state where we can receive Grace; Confirmation, which seals and strengthens the grace of Baptism; and, Holy Eucharist (or Communion) where we come into full communion with Christ by receiving him Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the form of the sanctified and blessed bread and wine.  There are 2 Sacraments of Healing: Penance or Reconciliation, where we confess our sins and Christ absolves us of them (more in a moment); and the Annointing of the Sick, where we seek God's blessing and aid in times of extreme illness and prepare for death.  Finally, there are 2 vocational sacraments; Holy Orders and Matrimony.  These mark a state of life -- either the religious life or married life.

As to Penance...  We confess our sins to the priest as mediator and intercessor -- but the absolution is from Christ, not the priest.  The priest may offer some guidance to help avoid the repetition of the same sins, and likely assigns a penance -- an act to help restore or make good the harm.  Often, the penance is simply prayers -- but it may include a direct act to make whole the damage in some cases.  For example, confessing to stealing may include making direct restitution to the victim.  But the Sacrament of Penance requires more than simply showing up and going through the motions; the penitent must be truly repentant and sorry for the sins, and seek to avoid the sin in the future.  The Church encourages the frequent reception of the Sacrament of Penance or Reconciliation because, in her wisdom, the Church and, even more so God, recognizes that we are fallen beings who fail and need to be given an avenue to heal our broken relationship with Our Father.


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## Dirty Dog

Only if atheism counts...


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## Drose427

I was born and raised Baptist, but I would not consider myself religious, no. I've always hated the sin, but not the sinner. I don't judge, because thats not my privilege, its a higher powers. I never have and never will say there isn't a higher power. But I personally don't worry too much about an afterlife or religion. Partially because I have a dislike of congregations because of how I used to move around so much growing up I saw how much churches under the same faith can vary. I worry myself more with living as a good person, treating people with compassion and respect than a higher power or what happens to me when I die.

I've also been affected by other factors as well though. My fathers side of my family is very much athiest, while my mothers is the polar opposite.  My great uncle on her side is very judgmental and very extremist. The last time I attended church with them he was condoning violence to homosexuals and drs. who took part in abortions. So right away I grew up in the middle of an extreme dichotomy. Eventually, I found a church that I was very happy to be apart of, that believed in and held many of the same opinions as I, and life happened I just never made the effort to get back. I'm very grateful for so many things I learned from either side of my family, but religion just isn't something that means a lot to me personally. I'm more concerned with what's happening now than whats happening next and never felt like I needed strength I couldn't get from family or loved ones.


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## Dirty Dog

To quote the Very Wise George Carlin...

"I used to be Catholic, now I'm an American..."


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## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> No.  Not even close to the teachings of the Catholic Church.  Though it's a bit off topic, I'm not willing to let it slide.  Where to begin?
> 
> The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved through the intercession and perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  Neither faith nor deeds alone can gain us heaven -- and even both deeds and faith wouldn't be enough without Christ.  The 7 Sacraments are outward signs of God's Grace, instituted by Christ.  There are 3 Sacraments of Initiation: Baptism, which removes original sin and brings into a state where we can receive Grace; Confirmation, which seals and strengthens the grace of Baptism; and, Holy Eucharist (or Communion) where we come into full communion with Christ by receiving him Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the form of the sanctified and blessed bread and wine.  There are 2 Sacraments of Healing: Penance or Reconciliation, where we confess our sins and Christ absolves us of them (more in a moment); and the Annointing of the Sick, where we seek God's blessing and aid in times of extreme illness and prepare for death.  Finally, there are 2 vocational sacraments; Holy Orders and Matrimony.  These mark a state of life -- either the religious life or married life.
> 
> As to Penance...  We confess our sins to the priest as mediator and intercessor -- but the absolution is from Christ, not the priest.  The priest may offer some guidance to help avoid the repetition of the same sins, and likely assigns a penance -- an act to help restore or make good the harm.  Often, the penance is simply prayers -- but it may include a direct act to make whole the damage in some cases.  For example, confessing to stealing may include making direct restitution to the victim.  But the Sacrament of Penance requires more than simply showing up and going through the motions; the penitent must be truly repentant and sorry for the sins, and seek to avoid the sin in the future.  The Church encourages the frequent reception of the Sacrament of Penance or Reconciliation because, in her wisdom, the Church and, even more so God, recognizes that we are fallen beings who fail and need to be given an avenue to heal our broken relationship with Our Father.



I see. Well I don't know much about Catholicism but I've got a question concerning it. I had a childhood friend who was Catholic and he talked about how, for a time in the early A.D.s that the Romans would stop and question you if you were a believer in Christ. They would have swords out and if you said yes they would cut your head off. Of course a person could deny that they believed in Christ and often people would do just that, even if they didn't really mean it, just to save their own skin. However, I've heard it being mentioned by some Catholics, if you did that you end up condemning yourself to hell. You might save your head from the Romans but you would end up going to hell for denying Christ. So, is that what the Catholics believe?


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## Kung Fu Wang

Dirty Dog said:


> I used to be Catholic, now I'm an American.


I used to be Catholic, now I'm an "atheist". I can't tell my wife, I still go to church with her on Christmas eve.


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## Cirdan

Well many in my family are pretty religious and I was taken to the temple of the dress wearing hippie and this desert religion at an early age for indoctrination. Didn`t rub off, my viking blood and every fiber of my being rebels at the idea of being a spiritual slave forever on my knees begging forgiveness for my very existence in this celestial dictatorship of the weak.

Odin now, he is a fellow you can relate to. "_Let me feel Excitement and Poetry and Fury and Joy!"_


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## Tez3

Cirdan said:


> Odin now, he is a fellow you can relate to.



Iceland to build first Norse gods temple since Viking age so you can worship Thor and Odin - Europe - World - The Independent


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## Instructor

I am a Christian...


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## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> I see. Well I don't know much about Catholicism but I've got a question concerning it. I had a childhood friend who was Catholic and he talked about how, for a time in the early A.D.s that the Romans would stop and question you if you were a believer in Christ. They would have swords out and if you said yes they would cut your head off. Of course a person could deny that they believed in Christ and often people would do just that, even if they didn't really mean it, just to save their own skin. However, I've heard it being mentioned by some Catholics, if you did that you end up condemning yourself to hell. You might save your head from the Romans but you would end up going to hell for denying Christ. So, is that what the Catholics believe?



You really need to look to at the "real" history of this. Not a whole lot of delineation between Catholic and Christian during the time of the Romans


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## tshadowchaser

I was raised a Protestant and in my youth stood at the pulpit, at one time or another, in most of the local churches to give youth sermons. I went to college and learned more about religion and the belies of others. 
My militarily dog tags say Buddhist on them. I have deep personal thoughts on life, God, Spiritual Beings and still search my mind  each day to find answers to many things.
Am I religious? I think one would say yes but then I rarely talk about such things openly and only with close friends if the topic comes up.


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## Transk53

tshadowchaser said:


> I was raised a Protestant and in my youth stood at the pulpit, at one time or another, in most of the local churches to give youth sermons. I went to college and learned more about religion and the belies of others.
> My militarily dog tags say Buddhist on them. I have deep personal thoughts on life, God, Spiritual Beings and still search my mind  each day to find answers to many things.
> Am I religious? I think one would say yes but then I rarely talk about such things openly and only with close friends if the topic comes up.



Whether you talk about it or not is largely irrelevant Sir. You're deep personal thoughts and belief is you're own, and no one else's IMHO.


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## jezr74

Transk53 said:


> Whether you talk about it or not is largely irrelevant Sir. You're deep personal thoughts and belief is you're own, and no one else's IMHO.


I thought it is taught to evangelize your beliefs. Why is it personal?


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## Transk53

jezr74 said:


> I thought it is taught to evangelize your beliefs. Why is it personal?



Why would it not be. Are you a twin?


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## jezr74

In my experience secrets are personal. Things that make you happy should be shared.


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## Transk53

Secrets, they are just a fanciful ambition or just somewhere to retreat to. I am talking about the inner being. The foundation of the one.


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## jezr74

Transk53 said:


> Secrets, they are just a fanciful ambition or just somewhere to retreat to. I am talking about the inner being. The foundation of the one.



Isn't the whole philosophy to share that inner well being? Are only parts of a religion\faith meant to be shared and some is kept for yourself? Or does it depend on the ideology?

I think I understand what your saying, but it seems to go against the grain?


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## Transk53

jezr74 said:


> Isn't the whole philosophy to share that inner well being? Are only parts of a religion\faith meant to be shared and some is kept for yourself? Or does it depend on the ideology?
> 
> I think I understand what your saying, but it seems to go against the grain?



Yes it probably does, but to me that goes against the grain. Perhaps the answers could be sought via PM. No disrespect to yourself, but I think the thread could go South!


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## Transk53

Unless admin and the mods would allow us to have a friendly convo on this. All views have a voice


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## Steve

Provided the thread doesn't get political or stray into personal insults and such.  We've lost a few great posters over religious differences of opinion. 

Personally, I'm not religious in the slightest, but I enjoy hearing about peoples' beliefs and such.  I think religions are fascinating for a number of reasons, and generally they provide some solid structure and guidance to peoples' lives.  That is, until they don't.


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## jezr74

Was hoping for other peoples input as well, I had thought it was a friendly conversation, I'm just not one to use the smiley face. I find it all interesting.


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## Transk53

jezr74 said:


> Was hoping for other peoples input as well, I had thought it was a friendly conversation, I'm just not one to use the smiley face. I find it all interesting.



Good then.


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## Blindside

I am agnostic tending toward atheism.  My mom grew up as a Shinto-Buddhist and my father's family was Jewish, but it sounds like he apparently played pool instead of going to Hebrew school so he never really did the faith thing.  And actually in speaking with my grandmother, her knowledge of the Jewish holidays is somewhat... lacking, so I suspect that whole side of the family was more part of the Jewish community rather than the religon being an important element in the family.

I can't remember ever believing in a god, or for that matter in Santa Claus, and we really didn't observe anything with regard to faith.    My parents sent me with some family friends to go to a Christian church and Sunday school, but apparently it didn't make much of an impression.  My wife grew up as an Episcopalian and we have retained her families traditions, the kids were baptized, but we really only go to Church on Christmas Eve.  My oldest son when he was 6 said "God isn't real because he has powers like a superhero, and superheros aren't real."  That sort of summed it up for me.   I will say that I try very hard not to influence him (or his brother) in any way with regard matters of faith.

Given that I grew up in a Judeo-Christian society my morality is certainly heavily influenced by cultural norms, but in search of justifying that morality I use a combination of the Golden Rule, as written as several versions in the Bible (and most other religions); "do unto others as they would have you do unto you" and the Wiccan Rede of "And it harm none, do what ye will."  I don't think that makes me either religious or spiritual, it is just common sense.


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## Buka

I can honestly tell my wife "I love you". Someone in France can say the same to their wife in French. As can someone else in whatever country and language you wish to name. It all sounds different, but it's all the very same.

Various groups of people worship whatever deity they worship. They're all worshiping the same thing. But because they call HIM/HER different things - the other guy is a damned fool (in the most literal sense) and an infidel.

I could always say to a Frenchman, "That's not how you say it! You're wrong!" Like that would make any sense.

That's pretty much my view on religion. Not that anyone should give a rat's ****. I sure as heck don't.


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## Instructor

I pretty much left one of the other forums because a few atheists kept insulting me based on my faith.  I pop in there now and again but nowadays I am mostly a martial talk man.  Folks here just seem a bit more tolerant of diffeences between people.


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## Tez3

Instructor said:


> I pretty much left one of the other forums because a few atheists kept insulting me based on my faith.  I pop in there now and again but nowadays I am mostly a martial talk man.  Folks here just seem a bit more tolerant of diffeences between people.




I've noticed on Facebook more and more 'atheist' attacks on people's religions, all religions not just one. It does seem like there is such a lot of hatred for anyone who has a faith, which to be honest does surprise me. I have my faith, what other peoples faiths are worries me not a bit unless they directly threaten me but the language used by some of these so called atheists is nasty, bigoted and in some cases quite threatening, they have taken having no religion as their religion. It worries me, because we need to get on with each other not make more divisions.


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## Xue Sheng

My answer is still the same as it was in post #16 but I came accorss this the other day and found it interesting that applies to a belief in God.

Blaise Pascal's Wager



> “Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false? If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists.”



There are a lot of arguments for and against his wager, and I am not making any statement with this, I just found it interesting and somewhat applicable to this thread


----------



## Instructor

The implication was that I wasn't very intelligent because of my beliefs and that only science has the answers.  It stung doubly bad because I actually love science.  It shouldn't be used as a hammer to squash individual beliefs.


----------



## Steve

Atheism can be as dogmatic as any religion.   I would recommend, however, just being mindful that atheists are no more or less likely to judge the beliefs of others than anyone else.   Just like southern baptists, Mormons, Muslims or anyone else, religion tends to be inherently judgy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jezr74

While I'm an atheist, I don't really think or practice anything. But bring it up only when asked. I'm happy for people with faith, and if they are a good person and happy, I just think it must work for them. The same way I feel good about myself and smile for days after a good MA session.

I only get into animated conversation when evidence based claims are made and I disagree. But I will back off fast if it's someone that I don't know well and doesn't know me, I'm not in the business of hurting peoples beliefs or feelings just because mine are different. Everyone has their own moral compass.

But I have genuine curiosity with many aspects of other peoples experiences and take on life and faith.


----------



## Cirdan

Instructor said:


> The implication was that I wasn't very intelligent because of my beliefs and that only science has the answers.  It stung doubly bad because I actually love science.  It shouldn't be used as a hammer to squash individual beliefs.



Yeah, speaking og hammers some people actually_ laugh_ at me when I tell them Thor controls the weather. He rides across the sky in his goat drawn carriage, blesses us with rain and swings mighty Mjølnir to make booming thunder and bolts of lightning. Some people, humph!


----------



## Transk53

Instructor said:


> The implication was that I wasn't very intelligent because of my beliefs and that only science has the answers.  It stung doubly bad because I actually love science.  It shouldn't be used as a hammer to squash individual beliefs.



You are right it should not. I too have a love of science, but I don't ever think of telling someone that their god does not exist. Science cannot prove one way or another, but then the human mind can be very closeted to a lot of things. The bizarre thing is that what people view as miracles, could have simply been a old world magician doing his or her thing. In the modern day world, I think peoples view of a miracle, is getting home safely on the subway for example. I got barracked on another site for merely stating that a certain religious figure may not have been human.


----------



## tshadowchaser

Transk53 said:


> I got barracked on another site for merely stating that a certain religious figure may not have been human.



That might make for an interesting conversation/discussion in a different thread.  There seem to be different sides to what god(s) actually may be.

In this thread I would like to ask what the difference is between a person who is religious and one who is spiritual? Can a person be one and not the other?


----------



## Cirdan

tshadowchaser said:


> That might make for an interesting conversation/discussion in a different thread.  There seem to be different sides to what god(s) actually may be.
> 
> In this thread I would like to ask what the difference is between a person who is religious and one who is spiritual? Can a person be one and not the other?



Indeed it would be quite interesting just to hear what people think being _spiritual_ means..


----------



## Transk53

tshadowchaser said:


> That might make for an interesting conversation/discussion in a different thread.  There seem to be different sides to what god(s) actually may be.
> 
> In this thread I would like to ask what the difference is between a person who is religious and one who is spiritual? Can a person be one and not the other?



Personally I probably would have a clue what being spiritual actually is. Frankly I do not care to be blunt about it  I believe what I believe. It has no less merit than than believing in the gods, or whatever. Generic opposite divinity as far as I am concerned.


----------



## Instructor

spir·it·u·al


/ˈspiriCH(əw)əl/


adjective

adjective: spiritual



1. 



of, relating to, or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.

"I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare"




synonyms:

nonmaterial, incorporeal, intangible; More


----------



## Transk53

Instructor said:


> spir·it·u·al
> 
> 
> /ˈspiriCH(əw)əl/
> 
> 
> adjective
> 
> adjective: spiritual
> 
> 
> 
> 1.
> 
> 
> 
> of, relating to, or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
> 
> "I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> synonyms:
> 
> nonmaterial, incorporeal, intangible; More



Thanks, guess I should have said my soul had been bleeding for decades. Incorporeal in this sense is just clueless to the possibilities of being. Hence why I got barracked on another site. One day when my bones have turned to dust, I won't need that dust


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Have you seen this movie? What's your opinion on this from your religious point of view?


----------



## Transk53

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Have you seen this movie? What's your opinion on this from your religious point of view?



So basically Professor John Oldman gave the idea that he was Jesus. That would be nuclear can of worms to say the least. It would suggest that Jesus was not just a man after all. MT rules allow me to woose out at this point though, but it was just a film, and not being a devout man myself, the premise would contradict religious doctrine. Whatever the viewpoint or whatever faith. I will have to watch it, if only for the stellar cast and premise.


----------



## Buka

It always amazed/amused me that people of one religion bash people of a different religion. Even more so that some people of no religion bash people of _any_ religion. Why would they even care?

I'm so glad we Martial Artists don't do that.


----------



## Gnarlie

Buka said:


> It always amazed/amused me that people of one religion bash people of a different religion. Even more so that some people of no religion bash people of _any_ religion. Why would they even care?
> 
> I'm so glad we Martial Artists don't do that.


I put myself firmly in the unbeliever / heretic camp. I hesitate to use the term atheist, because atheist suggests aggression and militance, and I never talk about it, this is literally the first time. Even without talking about it, I've heard enough belief-based argument to last a lifetime. It's a personal thing, and I agree that what one person believes on a personal level should not affect anyone else at all. But it does, for example in the cases of and not limited to:

Gay marriage
Abortion
Personal nutrition / diet
Cartoons depicting the prophet

When people feel the urge to give me their unsolicited opinions on these and similar matters, I end the conversation politely. I prefer to concentrate on finding things we have in common as human beings.


----------



## smiller2144

No, I'd call myself an atheist but I respect Philosophy and Spirituality in Martial Arts.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> I've noticed on Facebook more and more 'atheist' attacks on people's religions, all religions not just one. It does seem like there is such a lot of hatred for anyone who has a faith,



That may have something to do with the way atheists suffered from unimaginable torture, false imprisonment and persecution over the centuries at the hands of religious fundamentalists. Even today there are 12 countries where being an atheist is punishable by death.


----------



## Transk53

RTKDCMB said:


> That may have something to do with the way atheists suffered from unimaginable torture, false imprisonment and persecution over the centuries at the hands of religious fundamentalists. Even today there are 12 countries where being an atheist is punishable by death.



Sadly enough that not supprising.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Xue Sheng said:


> My answer is still the same as it was in post #16 but I came accorss this the other day and found it interesting that applies to a belief in God.
> 
> Blaise Pascal's Wager
> 
> 
> 
> There are a lot of arguments for and against his wager, and I am not making any statement with this, I just found it interesting and somewhat applicable to this thread



Calling Pascal's bluff:


----------



## Tez3

RTKDCMB said:


> That may have something to do with the way atheists suffered from unimaginable torture, false imprisonment and persecution over the centuries at the hands of religious fundamentalists. Even today there are 12 countries where being an atheist is punishable by death.




They are hardly the only ones though. Many millions of people have been tortured, imprisoned and killed for their beliefs, for their sexuality and their ideas, why in particular are some and I repeat some atheists now being so vindictive and hurtful?


----------



## Xue Sheng

RTKDCMB said:


> Calling Pascal's bluff:



Ok, like I said There are a lot of arguments for and against his wager, and I am not making any statement with this, I just found it interesting and somewhat applicable to this thread.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> They are hardly the only ones though. Many millions of people have been tortured, imprisoned and killed for their beliefs, for their sexuality and their ideas, why in particular are some and I repeat some atheists now being so vindictive and hurtful?


There are unpleasant people in every group, like people who believe other people (whom they openly tell) should be tortured by fire for all eternity in Hell simply for not believing as they do.


----------



## Tez3

RTKDCMB said:


> There are unpleasant people in every group, like people who believe other people (whom they openly tell) should be tortured by fire for all eternity in Hell simply for not believing as they do.




Of course but is there any reason why some atheists are being particularly nasty now?


----------



## Transk53

Xue Sheng said:


> Ok, like I said There are a lot of arguments for and against his wager, and I am not making any statement with this, I just found it interesting and somewhat applicable to this thread.



Me too. Quite compelling if a lil bit same old, same old.


----------



## Transk53

RTKDCMB said:


> There are unpleasant people in every group, like people who believe other people (whom they openly tell) should be tortured by fire for all eternity in Hell simply for not believing as they do.



Just as many would say that we are already actually in Hell. I got told something like that by a church leader. Think I pretty much laughed my socks off and got sent back to school


----------



## Buka

Tez3 said:


> Of course but is there any reason why some atheists are being particularly nasty now?



Or some Muslims? Or some Christians?


----------



## Xue Sheng

makes me wonder...do Buddhists or Taoist ever get nasty....hmmmm


----------



## RTKDCMB

Xue Sheng said:


> makes me wonder...do Buddhists or Taoist ever get nasty....hmmmm


It's rare enough to require aggressive Googling. What should that tell you?


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> Of course but is there any reason why some atheists are being particularly nasty now?


It may have something to do with the rise of creationism, particularly the Young Earth Kind.


----------



## Cirdan

Tez3 said:


> Of course but is there any reason why some atheists are being particularly nasty now?



Probably the same reason some believers in myths are being particularly nasty now too. It is the age of reason and old institutions are not giving up their privilegies without a fight. Odin, Thor, Frigg and Freya still hears whomever calls upon them of course.


----------



## Tez3

RTKDCMB said:


> It's rare enough to require aggressive Googling. What should that tell you?



Not it's not that rare actually, it's been on the news quite a bit here. The BBC has been following the stories of the Buddhist violence in Myanmar for a while. There is also anti Muslim demos in Sri Lanka but Myanmar is a bad situation. these are all reported on our main news.
BBC News - Why is there communal violence in Myanmar 
Fear shock among Sri Lankan Muslims in aftermath of Buddhist mob violence - CNN.com


----------



## jezr74

Tez3 said:


> Of course but is there any reason why some atheists are being particularly nasty now?



All I see is hate these days on Facebook, anti everything.


----------



## Tez3

jezr74 said:


> All I see is hate these days on Facebook, anti everything.




I think it depends on who you have on as 'friends' I only have people known to me, which isn't many so I tend to not get a lot of the general hate stuff, those who post stuff from organisations like Britain First and the BNP ( both extremist right wing) get chucked off my friends list, it tends to be a lot of like minded people. Any hate stuff is usually someone who is posting against it and/or asking for help to fight it.


----------



## Xue Sheng

RTKDCMB said:


> It's rare enough to require aggressive Googling. What should that tell you?



Yup, I know, it was pretty much a rhetorical question


----------



## Tez3

Buddhist violence against Christians too. I think the extremists everywhere are rising.
Sri Lanka 5 000 Christians pray after attacks by Buddhist extremists


----------



## Tez3

Thailand.  Asian Buddhism s Growing Fundamentalist Streak Signals Growth Of Religious Nationalism In Several Countries

When Buddhist Monks Wield Kalashnikovs Foreign Policy


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> Not it's not that rare actually, it's been on the news quite a bit here. The BBC has been following the stories of the Buddhist violence in Myanmar for a while. There is also anti Muslim demos in Sri Lanka but Myanmar is a bad situation. these are all reported on our main news.
> BBC News - Why is there communal violence in Myanmar
> Fear shock among Sri Lankan Muslims in aftermath of Buddhist mob violence - CNN.com


How aggressive was the Googling to find that?


----------



## Tez3

RTKDCMB said:


> How aggressive was the Googling to find that?




Didn't Google it, as I said before the BBC has been following the stories for a while plus there's been documentaries on both Myanmar and Thailand on other channels. The BBC covers a lot of foreign stories and will carry them on the main news.
BBC News - Why are Buddhist monks attacking Muslims


----------



## Tez3

The BBC's foreign news. BBC News - World
Our other news 'suppliers' ITN and Sky also provide a huge amount of foreign news.


----------



## donald1

Tez3 said:


> I've noticed on Facebook more and more 'atheist' attacks on people's religions, all religions not just one. It does seem like there is such a lot of hatred for anyone who has a faith, which to be honest does surprise me. I have my faith, what other peoples faiths are worries me not a bit unless they directly threaten me but the language used by some of these so called atheists is nasty, bigoted and in some cases quite threatening, they have taken having no religion as their religion. It worries me, because we need to get on with each other not make more divisions.


personally i enjoy it when people come up and say mean things...i got a pair of steel toed boots... now they have a new purpose ... but joking aside though
for me i just dont understand why they care?  i mean... people choose their faith, what they believe in, or choose not to believe in. none of my concerns or anyone else but their own.  yet some people still say or post their disbeliefs or anger towards others based upon their choices. but the fact remains people still insult others and its going to keep on happening. maybe because they strongly dislikes other beliefs or simply because they can...


----------



## Tez3

donald1 said:


> or simply because they can...



Sadly I think there's a lot of that. A friend of mine fought on the UFC here in the UK a while back, Joe Rogan said something about her and she replied back to him in a Tweet, what followed was horrifying. She received so much abuse and nasty comments including threats on Twitter, RB and other sites as well as on her blog that it actually made her feel under siege and actually quite ill, she cut off as much of the social networks as she could ( she also advertises her business as a medical professional) so many of the comments were extremely personal and very hateful. We were horrified that people would say things like that to what to theme was a complete stranger, for sure I doubt they'd say it to her face. We can only think they said it because they could but really I wish they'd all rot in hell for what they did.


----------



## Steve

Xue Sheng said:


> makes me wonder...do Buddhists or Taoist ever get nasty....hmmmm


Well they just, else they'd never have children.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Transk53

Well I do hope I have not come across as insulting. Each to their own whether I agree with it or not. Well, actually being very honest here, I am unlikely to agree with any of you. But as I sincerely say, each to their own


----------



## jezr74

Tez3 said:


> I think it depends on who you have on as 'friends' I only have people known to me, which isn't many so I tend to not get a lot of the general hate stuff, those who post stuff from organisations like Britain First and the BNP ( both extremist right wing) get chucked off my friends list, it tends to be a lot of like minded people. Any hate stuff is usually someone who is posting against it and/or asking for help to fight it.



I don't mind from the sense that what I find offensive other might not and vice-versa, in some cases it good to have differing points of view. I like challenging people's posts on some subjects though. Nine times out of ten they are ignorant of what they are posting and it gets awkward for them when they find their own friends and family questioning their comments.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Gnarlie said:


> I hesitate to use the term atheist, because atheist suggests aggression and militance, and I never talk about it,



No, atheist really doesn't suggest any such thing. The overwhelming majority of atheists don't talk about it much, don't proselytize, don't go on television and rant against those who disagree with them, or commit violence against believers. Compared to 95% of the religious denominations out there, atheists have a much, much lower incidence of aggression or militancy in the name of their beliefs/unbeliefs.



Tez3 said:


> Of course but is there any reason why some atheists are being particularly nasty now?



Well, it's a small enough number of individuals that you could probably just ask them directly.

Seriously, in a world where hundreds of millions of religious folks believe that they are called by their faith to proselytize to those who believe differently, where preachers and politicians alike publically condemn those who believe differently, where a substantial percentage of religious people feel free to tell atheists they are going to hell, where religious extremists commit violence on a regular basis - if you get your feelings too bent out of shape because Richard Dawkins said something mean about believers, then you are straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.


----------



## Tez3

I wonder if I have the only religion where if someone wants to join we go, really, you don't, no, _really _you don't want to!
There are a good many atheists here, at least we don't have the same sort of campaigning that other countries have, the Church of England is frightfully polite and wouldn't push it in your face because it would be rude to. The Church of Scotland is still very John Knox but they don't bother non believers. The Welsh are Chapel, nice people and we just don't  talk about Northern Ireland. We have been invaded by some happy, clappy types who seem very earnest in wanting people to join but the British character doesn't really gel with that sort of enthusiasm. In many places one still doesn't talk about money, politics and religion so atheists actually attacking those with religion is seen as impolite.


----------



## Steve

In the UK, is someone with religion attacking atheists considered impolite, as well?  Doesn't seem to be the case.

I think that in every public high school in America, we should be offering an introduction to logic as part of the math program, as well as a philosophy of world religions course that focuses on the big five (Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Muslim and Buddhism).  Kids should be exposed to the myths and beliefs of the five major religions, along with the fundamental, theological arguments for and against the existance of God and the problem of evil.  They should learn about Prince Siddharta and the idea of reincarnation and enlightenment, and the various aspects of the gods Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva.

You don't have to be an expert, but it sure helps to have a general understanding of where people are coming from, and if you have a basic understanding of these five religions, you're hitting most of the world's population.

Once you have that, then tackle Odin, Thor, Loki and Freya.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Steve said:


> In the UK, is someone with religion attacking atheists considered impolite, as well? Doesn't seem to be the case.



I'd be curious as to the answer to this one. In the US, religious believers attacking atheists is commonplace. I'm given to understand that in the UK the average citizen is more reserved about their religious beliefs, so things might be different.



Steve said:


> You don't have to be an expert, but it sure helps to have a general understanding of where people are coming from, and if you have a basic understanding of these five religions, you're hitting most of the world's population.
> 
> Once you have that, then tackle Odin, Thor, Loki and Freya



Hey, are you leaving the Flying Spaghetti Monster out of the conversation? He will smite you with his noodly appendage!


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'd be curious as to the answer to this one. In the US, religious believers attacking atheists is commonplace. I'm given to understand that in the UK the average citizen is more reserved about their religious beliefs, so things might be different.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, are you leaving the Flying Spaghetti Monster out of the conversation? He will smite you with his noodly appendage!



I don't think 'public' religion is very common (yet) in the UK, probably because of the religious persecutions that have gone on here people do still tend to be reticent to say whether they believe in religion or not. It certainly isn't a big thing when it comes to politics, we don't have politicians telling us what their beliefs are and I think if anyone started bringing religion into politics they would lose popularity pretty quickly. This is an interesting debate. Debate Should David Cameron do God - IV Drip - Voices - The Independent

Spaghetti monster? Sure,why not?  in the UK we have the Jedi as an official religion.


----------



## Tez3




----------



## Paul_D

Tony Dismukes said:


> In the US, religious believers attacking atheists is commonplace.


Really?  I find that scary.   I would say it's more likely to be the other way around here. If you go around telling people you believe in invisible magician's who live in the sky, people are likely to look at you gone out and give you a wide berth.  There is a US comdeian over here, who I will have to paraphrase as I can't rember which one he is and therefore can't find the exact quote, but he says we have "gotten over religion" here in the UK.

There was a debate a few years ago about it being silly for shops to have to close early for religious reasons on a Sunday, their second busiest trading day, when only 4% of the population regularly attend church.  Atheism is the norm.  Religious beliefs are respected as long as you keep it to yourself, but the moment you try to inflict your beliefs on others you will become the target of ridicule.  I certainly am not aware of anyone I know who genuinely believes in the existence of a god.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

I had a good discussion the other day with my friend. He said, "I believe in God but my God may be different from your God." When asked which God does he believe in, he said, "My God is not Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, or ,... My God is the creator of the universe". This just make me to think, why should the creator of the universe needs to

- have a name?
- come from earth?
- look like human?
- ...

He will spend all his time trying to take care the whole universe. He won't care whether we believe in him or not.


----------



## Tez3

Paul_D said:


> Atheism is the norm. Religious beliefs are respected as long as you keep it to yourself, but the moment you try to inflict your beliefs on others you will become the target of ridicule. I certainly am not aware of anyone I know who genuinely believes in the existence of a god.



I wouldn't say atheism is the norm, rather that the usual quiet faith is carrying on. Yes we have the noisy imports of evangelism with it's marketing but many people who feel they don't have to go to church still believe in a deity. I know many people who do, different faiths but who all believe in a god, they just don't feel the need to go around telling everyone. It's a personal thing, it has been for a long time here, why would we go on and on about it?


----------



## Gnarlie

Tony Dismukes said:


> No, atheist really doesn't suggest any such thing. The overwhelming majority of atheists don't talk about it much, don't proselytize, don't go on television and rant against those who disagree with them, or commit violence against believers. Compared to 95% of the religious denominations out there, atheists have a much, much lower incidence of aggression or militancy in the name of their beliefs/unbeliefs.



You're right, and I would love atheist to mean just that to everybody. But until the more militant amongst their number perhaps begin to call themselves *antitheists*, I am loathe to say I am an atheist, lest others assume a similar level of religious intolerance might exist in me. It's the loud ones that people see and are aware of.


----------



## jezr74

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I had a good discussion the other day with my friend. He said, "I believe in God but my God may be different from your God." When asked which God does he believe in, he said, "My God is not Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, or ,... My God is the creator of the universe". This just make me to think, why should the creator of the universe needs to
> 
> - have a name?
> - come from earth?
> - look like human?
> - ...
> 
> He will spend all his time trying to take care the whole universe. He won't care whether we believe in him or not.



But why not just accept the overwhelming facts of how the universe was made and learn some science that can explain it all, and bask in the immense universe and it's wonderful discoveries it has to offer?


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> I don't think 'public' religion is very common (yet) in the UK, probably because of the religious persecutions that have gone on here people do still tend to be reticent to say whether they believe in religion or not. It certainly isn't a big thing when it comes to politics, we don't have politicians telling us what their beliefs are and I think if anyone started bringing religion into politics they would lose popularity pretty quickly. This is an interesting debate. Debate Should David Cameron do God - IV Drip - Voices - The Independent
> 
> Spaghetti monster? Sure,why not?  in the UK we have the Jedi as an official religion.


So, this is a relatively new thing? 


Tony Dismukes said:


> Hey, are you leaving the Flying Spaghetti Monster out of the conversation? He will smite you with his noodly appendage!


LOL.  I think people outside the USA might miss the reference to this classic response to the idea that we teach creationism alongside evolution as science.


----------



## Cirdan

For the mythically inclined, there certainly is a lot to choose from...


----------



## Transk53

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I had a good discussion the other day with my friend. He said, "I believe in God but my God may be different from your God." When asked which God does he believe in, he said, "My God is not Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, or ,... My God is the creator of the universe". This just make me to think, why should the creator of the universe needs to
> 
> - have a name?
> - come from earth?
> - look like human?
> - ...
> 
> *He will spend all his time trying to take care the whole universe. He won't care whether we believe in him or not.*



Probably would have to delegate there. I agree though, what says that the God has to be human.


----------



## Tez3

Well it seems that there are atheists that kill for their beliefs, Chapel Hill shooting Three young Muslims gunned down in North Carolina family home - Americas - World - The Independent


----------



## Cirdan

Tez3 said:


> Well it seems that there are atheists that kill for their beliefs, Chapel Hill shooting Three young Muslims gunned down in North Carolina family home - Americas - World - The Independent



Interesting. I would however point out that the gential mutilation community is almost entirely religious. Same goes for suicide bombers.

(edit)
Oh and since "atheists being particularily nasty now" was mentioned earlier, here is the good Dr Dawkins reading his fan mail.


----------



## Tez3

Cirdan said:


> Interesting. I would however point out that the gential mutilation community is almost entirely religious. Same goes for suicide bombers.
> 
> (edit)
> Oh and since "atheists being particularily nasty now" was mentioned earlier, here is the good Dr Dawkins reading his fan mail.




Christians also perform FGM as do Muslims and animists, it's cultural rather than religious, it's believed it keeps girls 'pure' rather than having any religious significance.
The key word is _'some'_ atheists, not atheists per se. Not all of any group commit violent crimes.

 Religion or Culture Stop FGM Middle East


----------



## Cirdan

Tez3 said:


> Christians also perform FGM as do Muslims and animists, it's cultural rather than religious, it's believed it keeps girls 'pure' rather than having any religious significance.



Come now Tez, you don`t see the connection between the idea of female sexual "purity" (need for control) and religion?
Genital mutilation is often believed to have religious support by those who practice it, it is little comort to the victims if this is debatable. Indeed there are no religious scripts requiring the practice, but local religious leaders often contribute to it`s support.

WHO Female genital mutilation


----------



## Tez3

Cirdan said:


> Come now Tez, you don`t see the connection between the idea of female sexual "purity" (need for control) and religion?
> Genital mutilation is often believed to have religious support by those who practice it, it is little comort to the victims if this is debatable.




However, one could also say than rather just a religious custom it is one that is endorsed by men for the control of women, now whether they use religion as an excuse or not is debatable, however it is said in places where this is practised that men will not marry women who have not had this done and will not tolerate them being part of society. That women are also complicit is a given but primarily I would still say this is cultural rather than a primarily religious practice given that it goes across religious borders as well as none, because there are those who practice no religion who also do this horrific thing.


----------



## Cirdan

Tez3 said:


> However, one could also say than rather just a religious custom it is one that is endorsed by men for the control of women, now whether they use religion as an excuse or not is debatable, however it is said in places where this is practised that men will not marry women who have not had this done and will not tolerate them being part of society. That women are also complicit is a given but primarily I would still say this is cultural rather than a primarily religious practice given that it goes across religious borders as well as none, because there are those who practice no religion who also do this horrific thing.



Those who practice female genital mutilation are almost exclusively religious, I am sure you can dig up a case of the vanishingly small percentage of non-religious practicioners if you want. 

Of course it is being used to control women, that does not change the fact that female gential mutilation is thought to have religious significanse and often is encouraged by religious leaders. You could argue that burning innocent women as "witches" had nothing to do with religion too. Human sacrifice? Cultural!


----------



## RTKDCMB

Cirdan said:


> Interesting. I would however point out that the gential mutilation community is almost entirely religious. Same goes for suicide bombers.
> 
> (edit)
> Oh and since "atheists being particularily nasty now" was mentioned earlier, here is the good Dr Dawkins reading his fan mail.


Fundies say the darnedest things.


----------



## Tez3

Cirdan said:


> Those who practice female genital mutilation are almost exclusively religious, I am sure you can dig up a case of the vanishingly small percentage of non-religious practicioners if you want.
> 
> Of course it is being used to control women, that does not change the fact that female gential mutilation is thought to have religious significanse and often is encouraged by religious leaders. You could argue that burning innocent women as "witches" had nothing to do with religion too. Human sacrifice? Cultural!




They aren't however just of one religion, the current climate is to blame Muslims and them alone for this. Christians should also be clamouring at their co religionists rather than directing the whole blame on Muslims. In Africa it is most often done by non Muslims, animists usually. In Egypt the religious leaders have strongly stated that FGM is wrong and should not be done but some people persist in defying them and still do it.
The other part of it is that males are responsible, if they, all of them said they would no longer take wives who had this done and they agreed to educate their daughters as well as their sons it would come to an end, hiding behind religion is not the answer. People say religion causes war and strife, well no it doesn't, it's the banner, the excuse for people to do bad things while feeling pious about it. Piety isn't the sole province of the religious the non religious can be equally pious about their beliefs.


----------



## Transk53

Looking at it. Is it not the case that as humans we are all fanatical in our own ways. Being a fundie would translate across a lot of things in life. Anyway might sign up to Jedi. Just as plausible as something from the first century AD


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Looking at it. Is it not the case that as humans we are all fanatical in our own ways. Being a fundie would translate across a lot of things in life. Anyway might sign up to Jedi. Just as plausible as something from the first century AD




People blame 'religion' for all sorts of things, they say it starts wars, spread cruelty, etc etc. The truth is people use their religion as an excuse to be a lousy human being doing things they would condemn in others, their 'religion' can be anything it can be no religion but it's what people hide behind. Rarely someone comes out and says they are staring a war because they want the land, wealth and power that their neighbour has, it has to be dressed up as 'righteous' before people will join in. The neighbours have to be demonised and put so in the wrong it seems the 'right' thing to do to invade, kill and oppress. It does has to be religion of course it can be a something that people feel strongly about such a being 'wronged' by another country or that the other country is 'evil' ( such as being communist, so many countries were demonised because they were communist and invaded such as Grenada)

If people feel they have a faith in a diety I don't see why they should be pilloried for it why should it matter to others what people believe in if it harms no one? Blaming one religious person for the faults of humanity as a whole doesn't make sense, before blaming 'religion' people should examine closely the real causes of conflict and war and they will find it's not religion that has started it but the greed and nastiness of humans. You think IS is a 'religious' war? Look closer, they want land, power and the wealth that the countries they want to invade have, it's wrapped up in religion to get the followers but it's no more a 'religious' war than the Crusades were.


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> People blame 'religion' for all sorts of things, they say it starts wars, spread cruelty, etc etc. The truth is people use their religion as an excuse to be a lousy human being doing things they would condemn in others, their 'religion' can be anything it can be no religion but it's what people hide behind. Rarely someone comes out and says they are staring a war because they want the land, wealth and power that their neighbour has, it has to be dressed up as 'righteous' before people will join in. The neighbours have to be demonised and put so in the wrong it seems the 'right' thing to do to invade, kill and oppress. It does has to be religion of course it can be a something that people feel strongly about such a being 'wronged' by another country or that the other country is 'evil' ( such as being communist, so many countries were demonised because they were communist and invaded such as Grenada)
> 
> If people feel they have a faith in a diety I don't see why they should be pilloried for it why should it matter to others what people believe in if it harms no one? Blaming one religious person for the faults of humanity as a whole doesn't make sense, before blaming 'religion' people should examine closely the real causes of conflict and war and they will find it's not religion that has started it but the greed and nastiness of humans. You think IS is a 'religious' war? Look closer, they want land, power and the wealth that the countries they want to invade have, it's wrapped up in religion to get the followers but it's no more a 'religious' war than the Crusades were.



Yep agree. Been going on for a thousand and will continue to do so. Human greed and ideals that have no place. No I do not think the IS war has anything to do with religion. Like the Templar's, greed and money and an overzealous view of their importance. Always felt that this is quite apt>

_John Connor: We're not gonna make it, are we? People, I mean.

The Terminator: It's in your nature to destroy yourselves.

John Connor: Yeah. Major drag, huh?_


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> Well it seems that there are atheists that kill for their beliefs, Chapel Hill shooting Three young Muslims gunned down in North Carolina family home - Americas - World - The Independent


 The details of the case are still under investigation, but according to the killer's wife the murders were related to a parking dispute with the neighbors and had nothing to do with religion.

Atheists can be asshats just as much as religious folks - we just don't  use religion to justify it. (After all, there are so many excuses out there for bad behavior - why limit yourselves to one religious dogma?)


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Tez3 said:


> People blame 'religion' for all sorts of things, they say it starts wars, spread cruelty, etc etc. The truth is people use their religion as an excuse to be a lousy human being doing things they would condemn in others, their 'religion' can be anything it can be no religion but it's what people hide behind. Rarely someone comes out and says they are staring a war because they want the land, wealth and power that their neighbour has, it has to be dressed up as 'righteous' before people will join in. The neighbours have to be demonised and put so in the wrong it seems the 'right' thing to do to invade, kill and oppress. It does has to be religion of course it can be a something that people feel strongly about such a being 'wronged' by another country or that the other country is 'evil' ( such as being communist, so many countries were demonised because they were communist and invaded such as Grenada)
> 
> If people feel they have a faith in a diety I don't see why they should be pilloried for it why should it matter to others what people believe in if it harms no one? Blaming one religious person for the faults of humanity as a whole doesn't make sense, before blaming 'religion' people should examine closely the real causes of conflict and war and they will find it's not religion that has started it but the greed and nastiness of humans. You think IS is a 'religious' war? Look closer, they want land, power and the wealth that the countries they want to invade have, it's wrapped up in religion to get the followers but it's no more a 'religious' war than the Crusades were.



In general, I agree. People tend to use religion (or political ideology or science or whatever else they see as authoritative) to justify whatever it is they wanted to do in the first place. (Even if a neutral reading of the original religion/political theory/science might lead you to expect the opposite behavior.)

That said, I do think that certain interpretations of religion can have negative or positive influences on the behavior and attitudes of the believing populace. Therefore, I have adopted the "by their fruits you shall know them" outlook: If your belief in Christianity/Islam/Buddhism/Hinduism/Wicca/Secular Humanism/whatever leads you to be kinder, humbler, happier, more generous and peaceful, and so on, then I say hoorah for Jesus/Allah/Buddha/Ganesh/Mother Goddess/humanity/whatever. If said belief leads you to be an arrogant ******* who hurts others or a miserable person who hurts yourself, then I say find yourself a new belief system.


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> The details of the case are still under investigation, but according to the killer's wife the murders were related to a parking dispute with the neighbors and had nothing to do with religion.
> 
> Atheists can be asshats just as much as religious folks - we just don't  use religion to justify it. (After all, there are so many excuses out there for bad behavior - why limit yourselves to one religious dogma?)




It was on the media here he'd posted a lot of anti religion stuff up on social media and was saying death to them all etc. I was rather bemused though by the description of the killer as a 'self confessed' atheist!


----------



## jezr74

Nothings sacred anymore!


----------



## Steve

I don't understand how this guy is relevant to the discussion.  I'm lost.  I mean, this guy who posted anti-religious things and is a self described atheist committed a despicable act of violence.  But he didn't seem to do so in the name of atheism.  So, how is this relevant? 

I completely agree with Tony's thoughts, and appreciate his comments.  On an individual level, he's absolutely right.  But on a larger level, religion is right up there with blind nationalism for justifying atrocity.  It's like the saying, "None of us is as dumb as all of us." 

however, while there are secular motivations for atrocities to occur, atheism isn't one I've ever seen.


----------



## Transk53

Atrocities are human nature, not religion. That is the convenient excuse. Back and forth to the point that my insomnia is cured.


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Atrocities are human nature, not religion. That is the convenient excuse. Back and forth to the point that my insomnia is cured.




Exactly.


----------



## Steve

Wait.  What?  You guys think atrocity IS human nature, and don't think religion is human nature?  I completely disagree.  

Atrocity is considered aberrant behavior, even in the parts of the country where it is tragically common.  It is atrocious by definition because it is contrary to human nature. 

Religion on the other hand, is at the very heart of human nature.  Not only is religion as old as civilization, it is often encouraged (or even mandated) by the community.  While I don't think any ONE thing can sum up the entirity of Human Nature, religion is as much that as anything else.

Of course, you are both welcome to your opinions, but I really don't think either of you have thought this thing entirely through.


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Wait.  What?  You guys think atrocity IS human nature, and don't think religion is human nature?  I completely disagree.
> 
> Atrocity is considered aberrant behavior, even in the parts of the country where it is tragically common.  It is atrocious by definition because it is contrary to human nature.
> 
> Religion on the other hand, is at the very heart of human nature.  Not only is religion as old as civilization, it is often encouraged (or even mandated) by the community.  While I don't think any ONE thing can sum up the entirity of Human Nature, religion is as much that as anything else.
> 
> Of course, you are both welcome to your opinions, but I really don't think either of you have thought this thing entirely through.



There is nothing for me to think through Steve. My opinion


----------



## Steve

Transk53 said:


> There is nothing for me to think through Steve. My opinion


Lol.  You don't normally think through your opinions?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Cirdan

Tez3 said:


> They aren't however just of one religion, the current climate is to blame Muslims and them alone for this. Christians should also be clamouring at their co religionists rather than directing the whole blame on Muslims. In Africa it is most often done by non Muslims, animists usually. In Egypt the religious leaders have strongly stated that FGM is wrong and should not be done but some people persist in defying them and still do it.
> The other part of it is that males are responsible, if they, all of them said they would no longer take wives who had this done and they agreed to educate their daughters as well as their sons it would come to an end, hiding behind religion is not the answer. People say religion causes war and strife, well no it doesn't, it's the banner, the excuse for people to do bad things while feeling pious about it. Piety isn't the sole province of the religious the non religious can be equally pious about their beliefs.



I never said female genital mutilation is practiced by just one religion. What I said was that the female gential mutilation community is very nearly entirely religious. Strawman arguments won`t change that.

That males are in control in these religious commulities does not make it any better either, religious subjugation of women anyone? When people grow up with these religious ideals of female purity and female gential mutilation is seen as an important part of this, of course religion causes suffering. You don`t get to pass the buck by blaming culture, males or any such easy way out.

While religion causing war is debatable (a great recruiting tool tho) it certailny encourages people to take up the suicide bomber profession, that community is as I mentioned pretty much entirely religious too.

And speaking about religious leaders, here is what the gentle Pope Francis thinks about the anti-LGTB referendum in Slovakia. Seems his "Who am I to judge" stance did not last long.


----------



## Tez3

Cirdan said:


> I never said female genital mutilation is practiced by just one religion. What I said was that the female gential mutilation community is very nearly entirely religious. Strawman arguments won`t change that.
> 
> That males are in control in these religious commulities does not make it any better either, religious subjugation of women anyone? When people grow up with these religious ideals of female purity and female gential mutilation is seen as an important part of this, of course religion causes suffering. You don`t get to pass the buck by blaming culture, males or any such easy way out.
> 
> While religion causing war is debatable (a great recruiting tool tho) it certailny encourages people to take up the suicide bomber profession, that community is as I mentioned pretty much entirely religious too.




Passing the buck is saying it's religion's fault, as if people haven't free will and a brain, rather it's saying that 'religion' is what's making them do this. Religion is an idea, it's what people make of it and if they have decided that FMG and suicide bombing is holy then that's them, I don't think anyone's writings actually says you should go out and blow yourself up along with countless others, human thought formed that idea. Religion is the same as culture, it's what people make of it. To blame religion is to say well it's nothing to do with me my deity said it had to be this way and who am I to disobey, it means no one has to take responsibility, they can shrug their shoulders and say it's as their god wills it.
If you look at any war the underlying causes aren't religion as I said, it's the banner to get people marching, it's the reasoning they can use to get people angry and wanting to fight. Take away all religions and you will still have the same wars  just under another banner to stir people up.
It is human nature and something that needs to be admitted, atrocities are always committed by the 'other side' they aren't thought of as atrocities they are thought as being defensive, being necessary for security etc etc. During the Balkans conflict the Muslim males were massacred and women raped with the idea they would have non Muslim babies to repopulate, this wasn't considered an atrocity as but necessary, there's people still proud of these horrible actions. When Henry the Eighth slaughtered the Catholics it was 'necessary', when his daughter Mary slaughtered the Protestants it was 'necessary', for security, they threatened the throne because these people opposed them rather than their actual religion and if you think that is so far back it doesn't matter it really does the conflict is still continuing in Northern Ireland, the very same conflict that Henry the Eighth started has killed and is killing people now yet none of those bombers who blew up people in the last few years consider they have done anything wrong. They do it in the name of religion yet l know that it's more about drugs, prostitutes, crime and protection rackets and that the terrorists don't actually have any religious beliefs. it's about controlling the population, exhorting money and setting themselves up as the people in charge.
A lot of people want to be lead, they don't want to think for themselves, some religions encourage self enlightenment, others don't. Some philosophies make people think and some encourage them not to, culture and religion aren't different from each other, it's what people believe, what they want to believe and most want not to think about the difficult things, the best religions tell people they should think and stand on their own to feet, the worst tell them to leave everything to their god. The latter people can blame all the bad things on their deity and say it's his will, they don't have to lift a finger to help, just recruit more believers.

Some people will always make their religion/culture/philosophy say what they want it to, they are the type who will justify their actions by whatever means they can, this goes for *all* faiths, all philosophies, all creeds and all political thoughts, they will rally people under their banners making them believe that whatever they do will be right, they can't do wrong so wiping out the neighbouring tribes, invading countries, killing the original inhabitants, taking slaves, massacring children, dropping bombs, using drones, suicide bombers, whatever, is always going to right in the eyes of the following, they aren't monsters are they, they have right on their side after all..............


----------



## Cirdan

Tez3 said:


> (snip)
> 
> A lot of people want to be lead, they don't want to think for themselves, some religions encourage self enlightenment, others don't. Some philosophies make people think and some encourage them not to, culture and religion aren't different from each other, it's what people believe, what they want to believe and most want not to think about the difficult things, *the best religions tell people they should think and stand on their own to feet, the worst tell them to leave everything to their god*. The latter people can blame all the bad things on their deity and say it's his will, they don't have to lift a finger to help, just recruit more believers.
> 
> (snip)



Unfortunately _"leave everything to god"_, as you say, is what a lot of people practice AND it is being encouraged by religious leaders everywhere. Standing on your own two feet is not encouraged (especially if you are a woman) simply because educated and sceptical thinking people are much harder to scare into line. Female genital mutilation goes on being practiced because people think this horror is what what the all powerful superbeing wants. Not to mention all the other horrible and insane things done with the backing of myths taken seriously even today.. one wonders why the superbeings do not make an apperance and tell people to cut all this crap being done in their names.

"Go blow yourself up, god will grant you dozens of virgins in the afterlife -this life is short anyway and an eternity of bliss awaits you"
"God controls the weather so don`t bother trying to reduce greenhouse emissions"
"It is okay to opress (or kill) the LGTB because the holy text says so and the superbeing`s word is infallible"
etc etc


----------



## Tez3

Cirdan said:


> Unfortunately _"leave everything to god"_, as you say, is what a lot of people practice AND it is being encouraged by religious leaders everywhere. Standing on your own two feet is not encouraged (especially if you are a woman) simply because educated and sceptical thinking people are much harder to scare into line. Female genital mutilation goes on being practiced because people think this horror is what what the all powerful superbeing wants. Not to mention all the other horrible and insane things done with the backing of myths taken seriously even today.. one wonders why the superbeings do not make an apperance and tell people to cut all this crap being done in their names.
> 
> "Go blow yourself up, god will grant you dozens of virgins in the afterlife -this life is short anyway and an eternity of bliss awaits you"
> "God controls the weather so don`t bother trying to reduce greenhouse emissions"
> "It is okay to opress (or kill) the LGTB because the holy text says so and the superbeing`s word is infallible"
> etc etc




A lot of religious leaders would be considerably poorer if some people did start thinking for themselves. We don't tend to have the evangelical 'send me money' people here, I've no doubt there is some on a small scale but on the whole it's not so easy to make money and have power from religion in this country. The established churches have great wealth of course but their poor vicars and priests don't see it.
However it's not a lot of different for the non religious, they follow their ideological leaders in the same way, the massacres of intellectuals in Cambodia and China show this, the USSR was officially atheist being communist and acted in exactly the same way so the conclusion is really that it's human nature to behave in this way, it's also human behaviour however to be able to think about what you do and to change how you are and what you believe. There are always good people whether they are religious or not, we just need more of them. Religious and atheists can live together perfectly well, it needs people to take responsibility for their own actions, something that is the basis of some religions and should be the basis of all peoples thoughts.


----------



## Buka

What about male genital mutilation (circumcision)?

The crazy man from the Carolinas - nothing to do with a parking dispute. Pure hate crime.


----------



## Cirdan

Buka said:


> What about male genital mutilation (circumcision)?


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Lol.  You don't normally think through your opinions?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



Yes I do think through my opinions. But frankly I could not careless what you believe about me. This is a forum and the faceless at the ready. I will say that you are indeed correct about religion being a human condition, but my point was, or at least this particular one, that religion is a populace mechanism of control. I did not want to state that out of respect to the devout members on this forum.


----------



## Transk53

Buka said:


> What about male genital mutilation (circumcision)?
> 
> The crazy man from the Carolinas - nothing to do with a parking dispute. Pure hate crime.



Damn I thought I was crazy lol


----------



## Tez3

This is an interesting article on FGM showing that the researchers believe that it is done for a variety of reasons, not just religion. One of them, 'for fertility',  is even more strange than doing it for religion.
http://www.intact-network.net/intact/cp/files/1293715026_FGM Religious, Cultural and Legal Myths.pdf

*
"Reasons include: 

*
 Custom and tradition


 Religion; in the mistaken belief that it is a religious requirement

 Preservation of virginity/chastity

 Social acceptance, especially for marriage

 Hygiene and cleanliness

 Increasing sexual pleasure for the male

 Family"   there is more.


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> This is an interesting article on FGM showing that the researchers believe that it is done for a variety of reasons, not just religion. One of them, 'for fertility',  is even more strange than doing it for religion.
> http://www.intact-network.net/intact/cp/files/1293715026_FGM Religious, Cultural and Legal Myths.pdf
> 
> *
> "Reasons include:
> 
> *
>  Custom and tradition
> 
> 
>  Religion; in the mistaken belief that it is a religious requirement
> 
>  Preservation of virginity/chastity
> 
>  Social acceptance, especially for marriage
> 
>  Hygiene and cleanliness
> 
>  Increasing sexual pleasure for the male
> 
>  Family"   there is more.



Enhancing fertility. Really!


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Enhancing fertility. Really!




That one baffled me to be honest because I can't see any reason for it, many old wives tales about medicine and biology tend to have a sort of logic to them but I can't see it in this one. I suppose though it is a powerful reason for people if they think it actually does do that especially in places where the infant mortality rate is high.


----------



## Cirdan

Tez3 said:


> (snip)
> However it's not a lot of different for the non religious, they follow their ideological leaders in the same way, the massacres of intellectuals in Cambodia and China show this, the USSR was officially atheist being communist and acted in exactly the same way so the conclusion is really that it's human nature to behave in this way, it's also human behaviour however to be able to think about what you do and to change how you are and what you believe. There are always good people whether they are religious or not, we just need more of them. Religious and atheists can live together perfectly well, it needs people to take responsibility for their own actions, something that is the basis of some religions and should be the basis of all peoples thoughts.



No it is not human nature to behave in that way, not for beings with a shred of self respect and desire for the respect of others. It is the nature of those giving up too much of their selves in following superbeings, in some cases human ones yes but those do not have the staying power of mythical ones.

Yes we need good people, good people who will acknowledge the problems rather than sweeping them under the carpet. One of those problems is that subjugation of women is central to some religions and helps perpetuate horrible practices such as the gential mutilation of children.

Of course we can all live happily in the political correct land of sunshine and butterflies where everyone is nice and all. Keep using that broom, I am frankly disappointed.


----------



## Tez3

Cirdan said:


> No it is not human nature to behave in that way, not for beings with a shred of self respect and desire for the respect of others. It is the nature of those giving up too much of their selves in following superbeings, in some cases human ones yes but those do not have the staying power of mythical ones.
> 
> Yes we need good people, good people who will acknowledge the problems rather than sweeping them under the carpet. One of those problems is that subjugation of women is central to some religions and helps perpetuate horrible practices such as the gential mutilation of children.
> 
> Of course we can all live happily in the political correct land of sunshine and butterflies where everyone is nice and all. Keep using that broom, I am frankly disappointed.




I think you are reading into my words things that aren't there perhaps though I may have just seen the more horrible side of human beings. After investigating the things I have ie in the Balkans, Afghanistan etc I don't have a high opinion of people's good nature and any capacity they have to be actually 'nice'. I would still say though that the subjugation of women isn't actually the tenets of many religions rather than the custom of the community, certain tribes in Afghan have always kept women in what amounts for slavery even long before they became Muslims.
It is rather people's interpretation of their religious tracts that has some women in chains and others free, it's down to people again. 
As for using that broom, I'm not a witch, Wiccan isn't my religion.


----------



## Cirdan

Tez3 said:


> I think you are reading into my words things that aren't there perhaps though I may have just seen the more horrible side of human beings. After investigating the things I have ie in the Balkans, Afghanistan etc I don't have a high opinion of people's good nature and any capacity they have to be actually 'nice'. I would still say though that the subjugation of women isn't actually the tenets of many religions rather than the custom of the community, certain tribes in Afghan have always kept women in what amounts for slavery even long before they became Muslims.
> It is rather people's interpretation of their religious tracts that has some women in chains and others free, it's down to people again.
> As for using that broom, I'm not a witch, Wiccan isn't my religion.



Of course it is down to people, people wrote the texts to begin with. Well maybe monkeys with typewriters came up with some of them but mostly people created the myths. Who else would it be?

And with people`s willingness to give up decition making when frightened into doing so (white hot hellfire awaits!), religion became an invaluable tool being able to claim absolute authority and morality. Naturally such charming practices treating women as second class citizens or even slaves (not to mention genital mutilation) would be asimilated into the religious control mechanisms.

Speaking about cynicism, I often feel like Dilbert


----------



## Steve

Transk53 said:


> Yes I do think through my opinions. But frankly I could not careless what you believe about me. This is a forum and the faceless at the ready. I will say that you are indeed correct about religion being a human condition, but my point was, or at least this particular one, that religion is a populace mechanism of control. I did not want to state that out of respect to the devout members on this forum.


I don't think I understand what you're saying at all.  Now you seem to be agreeing with me, but very angrily.

Religion is a human condition.  I'm glad we agree.  But I think we also agree with the whole "opiate of the masses" aspect of it.  Really, the "opiate of the masses" piece is taken advantage of precisely BECAUSE religion is a fundamental part of the human condition.  It is hard coded in our dna to desire to be a part of something larger and to believe that there are beings greater than ourselves providing structure and support for our lives.  Were it not, it would be much more difficult for persuasive people to take advantage of it in the manner you've mentioned in your post.


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> I don't think I understand what you're saying at all.  Now you seem to be agreeing with me, but very angrily.
> 
> Religion is a human condition.  I'm glad we agree.  But I think we also agree with the whole "opiate of the masses" aspect of it.  Really, the "opiate of the masses" piece is taken advantage of precisely BECAUSE religion is a fundamental part of the human condition.  It is hard coded in our dna to desire to be a part of something larger and to believe that there are beings greater than ourselves providing structure and support for our lives.  Were it not, it would be much more difficult for persuasive people to take advantage of it in the manner you've mentioned in your post.



Angry... Seriously! Okay, have a nice day lol


----------



## Steve

Transk53 said:


> Angry... Seriously! Okay, have a nice day lol


Or maybe not.


----------



## Transk53

Steve said:


> Or maybe not.



No I was agreeing with because I missed the perspective that you had highlighted. Hence why I had to agree with you on the religious aspect being a human condition. I have to concede that religion as a whole is not one of strong points to discuss. perhaps if I had lead an ascetic life, so many other aspects of my life, including religion, may well have been more deeper in understanding to me. I still find the discussions quite interesting, but hovers to a certain point that does not go further.


----------



## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> No I was agreeing with because I missed the perspective that you had highlighted. Hence why I had to agree with you on the religious aspect being a human condition. I have to concede that religion as a whole is not one of strong points to discuss. perhaps if I had lead an ascetic life, so many other aspects of my life, including religion, may well have been more deeper in understanding to me. I still find the discussions quite interesting, but hovers to a certain point that does not go further.



I wouldn't necessarily agree that religion is part of the human condition. There are some very interesting views around on both sides of the argument but I think it's a discussion that isn't much suitable for a forum like this as it's far more in depth than the sound bite type of answers we tend to give here. It would make a lively and interesting discussion sat in the pub with pints in hand or in a formal debate. Here though it would turn into a bun fight as some got over emotionally invested in what they see as others 'wrongness'.


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## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> I wouldn't necessarily agree that religion is part of the human condition. There are some very interesting views around on both sides of the argument but I think it's a discussion that isn't much suitable for a forum like this as it's far more in depth than the sound bite type of answers we tend to give here. It would make a lively and interesting discussion sat in the pub with pints in hand or in a formal debate. Here though it would turn into a bun fight as some got over emotionally invested in what they see as others 'wrongness'.



Quite. I have upset quite a few people simply because I do not subscribe to established viewpoints. I do not have the capacity to blindly believe what I am told and do what I am told. Rather than risk the ire of others, I simply say that I have accused of being Vulcan on a few occasions. Perhaps my head is mired in the stars. I would rather be called a lunatic than be subservient to a belief system that I truly do not believe in, but if it occurs, to the detriment of myself only. Not another life etc.


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## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Quite. I have upset quite a few people simply because I do not subscribe to established viewpoints. I do not have the capacity to blindly believe what I am told and do what I am told. Rather than risk the ire of others, I simply say that I have accused of being Vulcan on a few occasions. Perhaps my head is mired in the stars. I would rather be called a lunatic than be subservient to a belief system that I truly do not believe in, but if it occurs, to the detriment of myself only. Not another life etc.




I think you should believe in what you want to believe in, whatever it is as long as it harms no one, I think too that people should understand that a lot of people have asked question about the whys and wherefores of life and come up with different answers. One should look inside one's self and see what your beliefs are. I think too that if one subscribes to a religion that's fine, it's fine too to not subscribe to any religion, you must stay true to what you believe though. People should not try to convert others, they should remain silent on the 'benefits' or whatever of their beliefs rather than try to convert. To discuss ideas is good but not to convert, if your life with your beliefs is so good people would join you without you converting them. To get angry because someone disagrees with you is wrong, who knows perhaps every single one of us is wrong. However every single one of us could be right as perhaps our beliefs are correct for us as individuals.


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## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> I think you should believe in what you want to believe in, whatever it is as long as it harms no one, I think too that people should understand that a lot of people have asked question about the whys and wherefores of life and come up with different answers. One should look inside one's self and see what your beliefs are. I think too that if one subscribes to a religion that's fine, it's fine too to not subscribe to any religion, you must stay true to what you believe though. People should not try to convert others, they should remain silent on the 'benefits' or whatever of their beliefs rather than try to convert. To discuss ideas is good but not to convert, if your life with your beliefs is so good people would join you without you converting them. To get angry because someone disagrees with you is wrong, who knows perhaps every single one of us is wrong. However every single one of us could be right as perhaps our beliefs are correct for us as individuals.



Agree. Now back to Tron 2


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## Grenadier

*Administrator's note:*

Thread closed, pending staff review.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Administrator


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