# Combat hapkido system vs. traditional hapkido systems



## Daniel Sullivan

In order to split the subject of the system off from a thread about Grandmaster Pelligrini's rank and qualifications, here goes.

What is the substantive differences between Combat Hapkido and traditional hapkido in general?  

How much 'hapkido' is there in Combat Hapkido?

Exactly what was changed and what was added from other arts?

I am interested in what people have to say about the system and its content, not specifically about GMP.

On a sidebar:

Is the distance learning changed substantially, or at all, from the  system as taught in person?

I understand that the organization allows for video grading.  Firstly, is this true?  Secondly, how strict are the guidelines for such a test?  Thirdly, is there any rank that must be tested for in person?

Please keep the discussion technical and factual.  

Input from people with first hand knowledge (trained or are currently training in the system, owning the video lessons, in person seminar attendance, etc.) is very welcome and appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

What?  No takers?  Come on.  Let's have an intelligent and factual discussion about the system and what it is and is not.  Surely, with so many strong opinions, there *must* be plenty of people who could weigh in on this.

Seven pages of back and forth about the founder.  Not one word about the system.  Weird.

Daniel


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## dancingalone

Maybe there's no one active on MT with experience in BOTH Traditional Hapkido and Combat Hapkido.   As you set the parameters of the thread, I can't offer anything since the little I know about CH stems from viewing the first 4 gup curriculum videos.  I do aikido, not hapkido and there are ample differences between aikido and what I perceive CH to be, but that's hardly surprising.

I'd like to read such a discussion myself though.


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## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> Maybe there's no one active on MT with *experience in BOTH Traditional Hapkido and Combat Hapkido.   As you set the parameters of the thread*, I can't offer anything since the little I know about CH stems from viewing the first 4 gup curriculum videos.  I do aikido, not hapkido and there are ample differences between aikido and what I perceive CH to be, but that's hardly surprising.
> 
> I'd like to read such a discussion myself though.


I didn't say that participants need experience in both, though if anyone does, I would love to hear from them.  I would like input from people with either experience in or some kind of knowledge of the system.

You do not have experience in it, but you have training materials, so you could, in theory, provide factual and first hand observation about what is contained therein.  

As opinionated and strongly negative as some posters are about CHKD, I would hope that they have some knowledge of the system itself, though I am beginning to think that they probably don't know diddly about it and just enjoy sounding off negative comments about GMP.

Daniel


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## J Ellis

I would be interested in reading this discussion as well. I'm hoping someone with hands on experience will step up and contribute some information.

Joel


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## dancingalone

Well, I do not have my notes here at work, but let's kick off the discussion with at least 1 small vector and as I defended Combat Hapkido in that other long thread, let me take the time to criticize an aspect of the training videos.

The videos do not teach breakfalls or rolls.  They just list them as a requirement for attaining a certain belt.  I believe off the top of my head you need these for the yellow belt.

forward roll
backward roll
side breakfall

It seems beyond odd to me that any 'video learning' system could leave out some very fundamental techniques that are absolutely needed before one could learn throws or take downs.

In my wife's aikido dojo (I help with the class occasionally too as a yudansha), the first month or so is spent primarily on ukemi.  We do not permit a beginner to play uke in a mainstream class until he/she has at least the basics to a certain level and we're fairly confident he/she won't be injured in a regular class. 

The CH DVD just states that you should learn these in person from a CH instructor.  Well and good, but that seems to indicate to me that in fact the video learning program is not meant to be the sole source of instruction, which in the end is probably a very good thing.


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## MJS

I do not study CH, but I did attend, quite a few years ago, a seminar with GMP, here in CT. Its hard, IMHO, to know what the entire CH system consists of, just by attending 1 seminar for a few hours. However, what I saw that day, looked pretty effective to me. 

The disagreements, for lack of better words, that we see between CH and regular Hapkido, are not just limited to this art, but to every art. You name it, and I'd bet anything that there'd be at least 1 person, who looked at the way another TKD person, Kenpo, Ninjutsu, etc., did something and say that they dont know what they're doing, that they're not doing the real (insert art), etc., etc. 

I look at it like this....the world of the martial arts, is way too big, to be the martial arts police. While I don't advocate what certain people do, I look at it like this....I'm not training with that person, I dont plan on training with that person, I'm happy with what I'm doing, so I'm going to worry about myself. In other words, if more traditional Hapkido folks dont like GMP, then fine. Do they plan on training with him? If the answer is no, then IMO, those folks should just keep quiet and worry about their own training, their own GM and the art that they do, and worry less about what others are doing. 

Is GMP really doing something that bad? Is he steering people who train under him, down the wrong path? Is it possible that people see what he's doing and are jealous? 

As I said in the beginning of this post, I dont study CH or any other form of Hapkido. I'm simply putting my .02 into the pot, because I see this in fighting in the arts that I do.


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## zDom

I've never had the opportunity to train in CHK, have no first-hand knowledge of that system to compare with Moo Sul Kwan hapkido.

I do know that a former student of the dojang I train at who had tested to the grant of green belt (white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, red, black) but was in no way approaching the level of skill needed to test to blue,

quit our school and was very soon after promoted to black belt by CHK.

In January, one of his students reportedly won his 5th MMA fight.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Wow!  A hundred and seventeen replies on a thread about GMP and his rank, only seven on a thread about CHKD as a system.

What this tells me is that most of the people who are so outspoken (and derogatory) regarding CHKD really have no idea what it is about or what is contained therein.

I find it humorous that all of those who come out of the woodwork to bash the system apparently have no first, or even second, hand knowledge of the system.  

Really, I am interested in intelligent discussion on the topic.  I don't know much about the system and the polarizing views have made me wonder why people are so polarized about CHKD as a system.  

Daniel


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## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> What? No takers? Come on. Let's have an intelligent and factual discussion about the system and what it is and is not. Surely, with so many strong opinions, there *must* be plenty of people who could weigh in on this.
> 
> Seven pages of back and forth about the founder. Not one word about the system. Weird.
> 
> Daniel


 
Yup..



dancingalone said:


> Maybe there's no one active on MT with experience in BOTH Traditional Hapkido and Combat Hapkido. As you set the parameters of the thread, I can't offer anything since the little I know about CH stems from viewing the first 4 gup curriculum videos. I do aikido, not hapkido and there are ample differences between aikido and what I perceive CH to be, but that's hardly surprising.
> 
> I'd like to read such a discussion myself though.


 
Good post dancingalone..As I only have experience in Combat Hapkido I really cannot post much..If anyone has *intelligent* questions about the current ciriculumn I will be happy to address them..


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## Daniel Sullivan

Here are some of mine.  I'll ask more as I think of them.

Are the principle of hwa (nonresistance), won (circular), and yu (flow like water) taught in CHKD?

What school/kwan of hapkido is CHKD descended from?

How is breath control taught in CHKD?

What is the prominence of striking in CHKD?

Thank you,

Daniel


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## goingd

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Here are some of mine.  I'll ask more as I think of them.
> 
> Are the principle of hwa (nonresistance), won (circular), and yu (flow like water) taught in CHKD?
> 
> What school/kwan of hapkido is CHKD descended from?
> 
> How is breath control taught in CHKD?
> 
> What is the prominence of striking in CHKD?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Daniel



Those are some very good questions Daniel. I'm very curious to read the answers.

I have no experience in CH, but I do plan to eventually view a seminar (you know, when I'm done with college and have time to breath and sleep). I have heard many say that one should view it first hand before making a judgement about it, and I think that is a very sound idea.
What I know about CH, though, is some of what it does not emphasize. Because I love Hapkido, I would love to see some common, more universal practices taught across the board, especially including dan jun. One thing I do not particularly understand about the system is why and how it is specially adapted to a modern society. Other than teaching gun defense as opposed to, say, sword defense, I do not see what is more effective about it as compared martial arts of the 1800's and prior. Back then, a knife was still a knife, and a punch was still a punch, no?

One other question I'd like to add:
Does CH emphasize stretching to build flexibility?


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## Daniel Sullivan

Just a comment about gun defenses: they are taught in traditional hapkido, at least at our school.  We don't learn gun defenses against M-16 riffles, as GMP was pictured doing in the Jan. 2009 article in Blackbeltmag, but we do have gun defenses.  I'd gather every other hapkido school does as well.  

Sword defenses may be archaic, but considering that any idiot can go to the hardware store and buy a machete, and considering that attacks of that nature are not unheard of, there is still validity to sword defenses. 

Considering that sword defenses are, at least in our school, not taught until after yidan, I hardly consider them a mark of hapkido being stale or outdated.

Daniel


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## terryl965

Well I will be your huckleby: This is my personal experience with both systems.

CH is a joint lock system the whole way, there is no real art involved. You learn how to manipulate each and every joint. I have never seen anybody in combat Hapkido spare with gear on

Hapkido is an entire system, where you have a number of set to learn and advance, like one steps, forms and sparring. Soory I have been called into work will finish later.


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## dortiz

Sword defenses will teach you how to move against a blade, stick or empty hand.
There is a lot in there.


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## Hollywood1340

Found a video of CHKD at a base level. Some may never take it farther then this.




As a CHKD student and instructor I have several problems with this. There is no "attitude" shown by either attacker or defender. I taught and teach to actually make contact with your distractions. You fight like you train. Nothing is more distracting then NOT making contact and having them look at you while you figure out what to do next.


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## Daniel Sullivan

As an instructor, I hope that you can answer some of the questions on the previous page.

Daniel


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## Hollywood1340

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Here are some of mine.  I'll ask more as I think of them.
> 
> Are the principle of hwa (nonresistance), won (circular), and yu (flow like water) taught in CHKD?
> 
> What school/kwan of hapkido is CHKD descended from?
> 
> How is breath control taught in CHKD?
> 
> What is the prominence of striking in CHKD?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Daniel



Some of these relate to the "art" of Hapkido. CHKD is a self defense system. You can find these principles in this and an in many other arts, styles, and systems if you want to find them. For most it does not relate to the system of self defense CHKD was set up for. Again you'll find find the art varies from instructor to instructor, what their background is and why they chose to use CHKD.
Striking is very important. Used as a distraction or as an entry it facilitates the use of our techniques as it should regardless.


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## goingd

As far as sword and gun defense are concerned, I was really only trying to point out the few possible ideas about CH that make it better suited for a "modern" world.

I see plenty of self-defense value in sword defense, as I see self-defense value in sword training. My old Hapkido school taught gun defense as well, and every traditional Hapkido school I've seen does too.


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## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Just a comment about gun defenses: they are taught in traditional hapkido, at least at our school. We don't learn gun defenses against M-16 riffles, as GMP was pictured doing in the Jan. 2009 article in Blackbeltmag, but we do have gun defenses. I'd gather every other hapkido school does as well.


 
The defensives against M-16's are taught in the Military Combatives program which is seperate from the regular program. In class we do defenses against handguns, knives and clubs..


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## Drac

Hollywood1340 said:


> I taught and teach to actually make contact with your distractions. .


 
Well said Hollywood..IMHO you HAVE to make contact when doing a distraction, except if the eyes are the target..I have gone home with plenty of bruises on my shins from those making contact..



Hollywood1340 said:


> You fight like you train


 
Something I have told the cadets in the police academy since day one..


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## goingd

Drac, as one who trains in CH, might you have any answers to my previous questions on the first page? Thanks.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Hollywood1340 said:


> Some of these relate to the "art" of Hapkido. CHKD is a self defense system.


I kind of view this as a semantic, meaning no offense.  Traditional hapkido is also a self defense system, as are most other martial arts, traditional or no.  



Hollywood1340 said:


> You can find these principles in this and an in many other arts, styles, and systems if you want to find them.


Yes, that is true.  But hwa (nonresistance), won (circular), and yu (flow like water) are fairly foundational to traditional hapkido.  Since CHKD is called hapkido, I was curious as to weather these are foundational there as well.  Perhaps it varies from instructor to instructor the degree taught, but in CHKD material, are these emphasized?



Hollywood1340 said:


> For most it does not relate to the system of self defense CHKD was set up for. Again you'll find find the art varies from instructor to instructor, what their background is and why they chose to use CHKD.


I assume that you are referring to breath control.  Any self defense or fighting system should teach breath control of some kind.  Is this addressed at all in CHKD materials or is it left to the instructor?



Hollywood1340 said:


> Striking is very important. Used as a distraction or as an entry it facilitates the use of our techniques as it should regardless.


Our school places a fairly strong emphasis on strikes, though it does not seem to be as strong an emphasis as I have seen in CHKD videos.

Overall, I get the impression from your post (and I could be wrong) that many of the instructors have grafted CHKD onto their existing backgrounds, and thus the underlying principles will be more in line with whatever art serves as their base art, rather than CHKD having it all laid out.

Not sure if anyone knows, but I was also curious as to what system GMP came up through and how much of it carried into his CHKD.

I appreciate the response.

Daniel


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## J Ellis

I began training in the Karate Connection's system of Kenpo in the mid-nineties and have since become a student of Ed Parker's American Kenpo as well. One thing I have observed is that while all of the concepts and principles identified and discussed in EPAK can be found in the IKCA material, the IKCA chooses not to discuss many of these ideas or use the same terminology.

I've wondered whether the same could be said of CHKD. If it truly is Hapkido (or a derivative of it), the same foundational principles from traditional Hapkido should be evident in their system as well. But CHKD may not use the same language to describe that foundation, or they may choose not to emphasize those concepts and principles to the same extent. It doesn't mean the foundation is not there or is not taught, just that different systems may organize and communicate similar material in very different ways.

I don't know whether this is the case, however, with regard to CHKD.

Joel


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## Daniel Sullivan

That brings up another question, which is what is the percentage of CHKD teachers who were video trained versus the number who trained directly with GMP or his direct students?  CHKD is so new that there should be a core of masters who learned directly from GMP or from someone who did.

Daniel


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## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That brings up another question, which is what is the percentage of CHKD teachers who were video trained versus the number who trained directly with GMP or his direct students? CHKD is so new that there should be a core of masters who learned directly from GMP or from someone who did.
> 
> Daniel


 
I cannot provide you with stats you want..Every high ranking instructor that I have trained with has trained one on one with GMP..As I said I cannot give you all the answers. I mentioned this thread to the ICHF and your calls with questions to HQ would be welcomed.

Either GMP's wife or Master David Rivas will answer the phone, and sometimes if you are lucky you might actually find GMP in the office, but its rare..


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## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> I cannot provide you with stats you want..Every high ranking instructor that I have trained with has trained one on one with GMP..As I said I cannot give you all the answers. I mentioned this thread to the ICHF and your calls with questions to HQ would be welcomed.
> 
> Either GMP's wife or Master David Rivas will answer the phone, and sometimes if you are lucky you might actually find GMP in the office, but its rare..


Appreciated.  I will try contacting them.

If you don't mind my asking, did you train in CHKD as a complete system or as an add on to something you already had training in?

Daniel


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## dortiz

"Every high ranking instructor that I have trained with has trained one on one with GMP"

So, out of the folks that you know.. when you say trainined one on one do you mean in a normal training period like 2-5 years or a couple of seminars?


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## J Ellis

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That brings up another question, which is what is the percentage of CHKD teachers who were video trained versus the number who trained directly with GMP or his direct students? CHKD is so new that there should be a core of masters who learned directly from GMP or from someone who did.
> 
> Daniel


 
Also how many of these teachers brought significant experience with them when they began studying CHKD?

As an example, I had over three years of training in jujutsu, judo, and karate before I began studying Kenpo, and I have trained the IKCA curriculum under in-person instructors since day one. The videos have always been a reference tool, not a stand alone learning program for me. I suspect there are a number of CHKD converts in a similar position. Even if someone relied primarily on seminars for hands on guidance, a background in traditional hapkido, jujutsu, or aikido would make it much easier to integrate the material taught on the videos without seeing an instructor every day.

Joel


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## Hollywood1340

I taught and trained with a 3rd Dan CHKD for seven years, and attended two seminars with GMP.


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## Hollywood1340

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I kind of view this as a semantic, meaning no offense.  Traditional hapkido is also a self defense system, as are most other martial arts, traditional or no.
> 
> Now I consider that semantic as well. Mainly because the "difference" between the two is just that. If one fails to "understand" it's their failure and where a lot of these questions come from. Good bad or indifferent those of us who train in CHKD and have done so for a good amount of time can see the differences and understand where they lie. I would say it's spelled out pretty well in many of the interviews with GMP and how we came to the distinction.
> 
> 
> Yes, that is true.  But hwa (nonresistance), won (circular), and yu (flow like water) are fairly foundational to traditional hapkido.  Since CHKD is called hapkido, I was curious as to weather these are foundational there as well.  Perhaps it varies from instructor to instructor the degree taught, but in CHKD material, are these emphasized?
> 
> Yes it is. The nature of the techniques we do require it. It seems your issue is if we call it these names and cover them individually. Nope, as you do your techs and learn what they mean and how they work it becomes apparent that it's there. Just because I didn't call it "Gravitational Marriage" or "Point of Origin" (EPAK terms) does not mean it's not there.
> 
> I assume that you are referring to breath control.  Any self defense or fighting system should teach breath control of some kind.  Is this addressed at all in CHKD materials or is it left to the instructor?
> 
> I think you'll find it's left to the instructor but it's amazing how you find these things as you work. I've worked with other "more traditional" hapkidoists who were pleasantly surprised to find we do many of the same things.
> 
> 
> Our school places a fairly strong emphasis on strikes, though it does not seem to be as strong an emphasis as I have seen in CHKD videos.
> 
> Again, read what, who, and how of CHKD and you'll find the answers and why.
> 
> Overall, I get the impression from your post (and I could be wrong) that many of the instructors have grafted CHKD onto their existing backgrounds, and thus the underlying principles will be more in line with whatever art serves as their base art, rather than CHKD having it all laid out.
> 
> CHKD IS my base art and I find it's just the opposite as I learn kenpo.
> 
> Not sure if anyone knows, but I was also curious as to what system GMP came up through and how much of it carried into his CHKD.
> 
> Why not ask headquarters?
> 
> I appreciate the response.
> 
> Daniel



It seems to me the best thing for you to do is find someone in your area who trains and to go spend mat time. Or call headquarters and find out more. Go to the source and actually spend some "Do" (Way) time with it and I think you'lll find out most of what you'd like to know.
Always a pleasure to talk HKD!


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## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you don't mind my asking, did you train in CHKD as a complete system or as an add on to something you already had training in?
> 
> Daniel


 
I first discovered CHKD when I was looking for something to add to my police training.. I attended a IPDTI class in Ashville NC and met GMP for the first time. I liked what I saw and when I found out the techniques came from CHKD I purchased the entire VHS library and started attending seminars..


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## dortiz

Hollywood1340,
you may be the new exception as the art still grows and thats great. 

I did find this post on another forum though.

"as someone who came into the ICHF back in the 90's while Combat Hapkido was still relatively young, I would estimate that the majority of the 1st Generation ICHF Instructors obtained their Black Belts from the ICHF Homestudy option. All the instructors I knew at that time had purchased the videos, made a video of themselves, and sent the video in to be reviewed by Grandmaster Pellegrini. The training was also supplemented by attending an ICHF Double Impact Seminar, or something similar."


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## Daniel Sullivan

Hollywood1340 said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I kind of view this as a semantic, meaning no offense.  Traditional  hapkido is also a self defense system, as are most other martial arts,  traditional or no.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I consider that semantic as well. Mainly because the "difference"  between the two is just that. If one fails to "understand" it's their  failure and where a lot of these questions come from. Good bad or  indifferent those of us who train in CHKD and have done so for a good  amount of time can see the differences and understand where they lie. I  would say it's spelled out pretty well in many of the interviews with  GMP and how we came to the distinction.
Click to expand...

  Fair enough.



Hollywood1340 said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that is true.  But hwa (nonresistance), won (circular), and yu  (flow like water) are fairly foundational to traditional hapkido.  Since  CHKD is called hapkido, I was curious as to weather these are  foundational there as well.  Perhaps it varies from instructor to  instructor the degree taught, but in CHKD material, are these  emphasized?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it is. The nature of the techniques we do require it. *It seems your  issue is if we call it these names and cover them individually.* Nope, as  you do your techs and learn what they mean and how they work it becomes  apparent that it's there. Just because I didn't call it "Gravitational  Marriage" or "Point of Origin" (EPAK terms) does not mean it's not  there.
Click to expand...

Just a clarification; I have no issue with how things are termed within CHKD.  My question was whether or not the concepts are part of CHKD.  The short answer is apparently yes.



Hollywood1340 said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I assume that you are referring to breath control.  Any self defense or  fighting system should teach breath control of some kind.  Is this  addressed at all in CHKD materials or is it left to the instructor?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you'll find it's left to the instructor but it's amazing how you  find these things as you work. I've worked with other "more  traditional" hapkidoists who were pleasantly surprised to find we do  many of the same things.
Click to expand...

Good to know.



Hollywood1340 said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our school places a fairly strong emphasis on strikes, though it does  not seem to be as strong an emphasis as I have seen in CHKD videos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, read what, who, and how of CHKD and you'll find the answers and  why.
Click to expand...

Okay.



Hollywood1340 said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Overall, I get the impression from your post (and I could be wrong) that  many of the instructors have grafted CHKD onto their existing  backgrounds, and thus the underlying principles will be more in line  with whatever art serves as their base art, rather than CHKD having it  all laid out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHKD IS my base art and I find it's just the opposite as I learn kenpo.
Click to expand...

Thanks!



Hollywood1340 said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if anyone knows, but I was also curious as to what system GMP  came up through and how much of it carried into his CHKD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not ask headquarters?
Click to expand...

Because headquarters is not involved in this thread.  

I posted this thread because every thread that appears on the subject turns into criticism of how GMP moves and nobody making the comments seems to know anything about CHKD as a system.  The intent of this thread was to encourage an informative discussion.  Asking what kwan a system founder came up through is not an unusual question.  



Hollywood1340 said:


> It seems to me the best thing for you to do is find someone in your area who trains and to go spend mat time. Or call headquarters and find out more. Go to the source and actually spend some "Do" (Way) time with it and I think you'll find out most of what you'd like to know.
> Always a pleasure to talk HKD!


Likewise.

There is a seminar in my area later this month, though I don't know if I will be able to make it.  Pretty much all of my time on the mat is spent in either kumdo or hapkido class six days a week.  

Just to clarify:
I'm not looking to pick apart the system and critique it, nor am I looking to sign up at this time (I will not rule out training in anything, but at this point, I'm very involved in my current school).

I did want to start discussion on what CHKD is and is not because I am rather tired of what I see as uninformed negative criticism (which often borders on trolling) of CHKD in general with nothing more than critiques of GMP's movement and/or background and anecdotal stories about guys who couldn't do HKD getting promoted to black belt in CHKD, which inevitably turns personal and results in locked threads.  None of those address CHKD as a system.

There have also been a bit of debate as to whether or not CHKD is HKD, with those who say that it is not seeming to have little to no knowledge of the system, and most of those who step up in defense either really not knowing the system, or knowing it, but saying nothing more than "it works.  Go to a seminar and see him in person."

I do appreciate your posts on the subject.

Daniel


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## goingd

I suppose I'll ask again:

Does anyone know what exactly makes CH more effective in a "modern society" as opposed to traditional Hapkido?

Thanks.


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## dortiz

Is that being said?


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## goingd

From Wikipedia:
"Combat Hapkido's focus means it has deleted some traditional Hapkido techniques which may be impractical for modern self-defense scenarios"

Description for the book, Combat Hapkido: The Martial Art for the Modern Warrior:
"Intending to bring a classical art into the modern world, this guidebook contains the wisdom and experience behind the art of combat hapkido."
"this manual discusses the evolution of hapkido into a modern art for self-defense"

It seems to me that it is being said, in fact, that CH is more suited for a modern society than traditional Hapkido. I simply struggle to see just how.


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## Drac

goingd said:


> I suppose I'll ask again:
> 
> Does anyone know what exactly makes CH more effective in a "modern society" as opposed to traditional Hapkido?
> 
> Thanks.


 
Unless someone from a traditional Hapkido discipline logs on here and talks about their training we have nothing to compair it too...



			
				 Daniel Sullivan said:
			
		

> There is a seminar in my area later this month, though I don't know if I will be able to make it. Pretty much all of my time on the mat is spent in either kumdo or hapkido class six days a week.


 
I really hope you can make a seminar and experience it for yourself.


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## Drac

dortiz said:


> "Every high ranking instructor that I have trained with has trained one on one with GMP"
> 
> So, out of the folks that you know.. when you say trainined one on one do you mean in a normal training period like 2-5 years or a couple of seminars?


 
They never said..Maybe they were with GMP in the begining and maybe like me they attended about 3 seminars a year.

*Off Topic: *What impressed me the most about GMP when I first met him for the police portion of his discipline was his attitude.. He addressed the class saying " Just because you showed up doesn't mean I have to pass you". My name is on this system and if you cannot do the techniques you will not get the teaching certificate".


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## dortiz

"Unless someone from a traditional Hapkido discipline logs on here and talks about their training we have nothing to compair it too..."

Ok, what the heck.

 As far as improving for todays world goes that is bold statement. I had no idea. While not impressed with what I have seen I have tried not to bash it either. Its just not Hapkido. Its taking elements of Hapkido and does them different. To a Hapkido player wrong but I will go with different.

When did 3 seminars a year become a standard for training in anything?? I dont care if its Judo, TKD or Hapkido. I hope I undertsand this wrong and if so apologize. But if its what I keep hearing, many folks doing long distance learning then it explains why the techniques look so bad. Sorry, bad footwork equals bad balance. Lack of understanding how techniques work through application versus force is why there is not good understanding of the core art. Take out the fancy kicking, you can do that at any school. But the core curriculum of joint locks and unbalancing should be good.

Many Hapkido schools run from warm up to stretching to kicking and striking to rolling and falls and then to Techniques and weapons. Some dont do any kicking, some do more weapons than others. All do several days a week of partner on partner touch, feel, grab, throw etc. THE CRITICAL POINT!! lots of interaction to feel where a technique works and how and how on many different styles of folks. This is how one learns to adapt and flow. One technique rarely works. Thats the other secret. Its being able to transition based on feel and the other persons reaction. Again, this comes from practice.
I can practice my TKD kicks on a bag or the air all week as well as my boxing. I can even do some judo work on my body pillow to practice entry and throwing but for HKD / AikiJujitsu / Baqua etc you need to continually work through it with partners and with good instruction explaining the 3 other things happening that you wont see in the video.


----------



## zDom

goingd said:


> From Wikipedia:
> "Combat Hapkido's focus means it has deleted some traditional Hapkido techniques which may be impractical for modern self-defense scenarios"
> 
> Description for the book, Combat Hapkido: The Martial Art for the Modern Warrior:
> "Intending to bring a classical art into the modern world, this guidebook contains the wisdom and experience behind the art of combat hapkido."
> "this manual discusses the evolution of hapkido into a modern art for self-defense"
> 
> It seems to me that it is being said, in fact, that CH is more suited for a modern society than traditional Hapkido. I simply struggle to see just how.





Drac said:


> Unless someone from a traditional Hapkido discipline logs on here and talks about their training we have nothing to compair it too...



Ok, I'll bite 

I don't see how society today is different enough from the 1940s (when hapkido became hapkido) to justify the rationale cited in goingd's quote.

Just where is this "modern world" line drawn?

Since the day it was named hapkido, hapkido has been "a modern art for self-defense." As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, defense against a sword, for example, is still applicable versus a club or machete.

For the record, I'm not bashing Combat Hapkido. Plenty of folk seem to be well satisfied by what they are getting from it.

Let me first state that it seems just about everyone who trained under Choi or under one of his students picked out what they wanted from the almost unlimited choices of techniques to set a curriculum  and all, presumably, believe their choices were best.

In this respect, GM P is no different than any of the rest of HKD style founders.

Here are my thoughts:

 In naming the system "Combat Hapkido" GM P has implied that other hapkido styles are NOT "for combat." I find that regrettable and somewhat offensive to all other hapkido styles.

I've heard the "its just a name" argument but suggesting the name "Combat Hapkido" shouldn't lead folk to infer that other hapkido styles aren't combat effective is disingenuous.

Hapkido was conceived as a comprehensive hand-to-hand combat system, unlike, say, Aikido, which, as I understand it, is more focused on spiritual development.

ALL hapkido is (or at least SHOULD be, IMO) for combat. A new system called "Sport Hapkido" would, on the other hand, not be objectionable as this indicates something other than the normal type of hapkido.

 There has been a lot of bashing of Combat Hapkido by traditional stylists. There's no denying it. But it seems to me as if CHKD took the first shot by stating outright that what other systems do may be impractical  so this type of backlash shouldn't be unexpected.

I've said this before in other completely unrelated discussions: impractical for WHOM? (I'll address this below)

I don't publicly point my finger at other HKD styles and criticize their curriculums as being bad choices for techniques or the number of techniques.

Privately I may think, and discuss among friends, that Brand X has too many, Brand Y too few, and that technique No. 86 as trained by Brand Z is silly.

But we certainly don't base our marketing campaigns around those opinions.

I've always thought it shows more class to say "OUR brand is GREAT because (reasons a, b, c, d, etc)" rather than "Our brand is better than Brand X because ...)

This is a bias of mine related to all marketing, not restricted to martial art marketing. And CHKD is certainly not the only system guilty of taking what I believe to be the low road.



 I have a personal bias against ANY system that offers rank promotion without face-to-face contact between student and instructor. It's a personal bias that I think is even more applicable to HKD instruction.

I have a personal bias against bumping new recruits to a dan rank based on their gup knowledge and experience from another system.

If I were, for example, to move to another town and show up at a Sin Moo Hapkido school, I would be flattered if they said "We will make you a SECOND dan!" after showing what I have been training at MSK  but how could I in good faith accept that rank?

Sure, it would be courteous to recognize my current rank (same art, after all)  but I wouldn't expect to be promoted to 2nd dan in their system until I was able to learn and perform all Sin Moo's requirements for that rank  including all the prerequisite gup material  to bring me to the point where I was eligible for 2nd dan promotion. 

Regarding me noting our former green belt was bumped up to 1st dan based on a video test: it appears that the CHKD system acknowledges that we are practicing effective techniques in addition to techniques they find ineffective.

I mention it in these discussions not to degrade CHKD, I just find it speaks well of our system.


 As far as impractical techniques:

There is a wide range of opinions on the number of techniques worth spending time on 

from the guy who practices nothing but a single punch to those who have thousands and thousands of techniques with each practiced only a couple of times a year.

I think Lee H. Park did a great job in selecting a curriculum for Moo Sul Kwan. I'm sure most folk feel the same way about the curriculum they are studying.

As far as practical/impractical:

What is impractical for ME may be GREAT for a student; or the student of a student; or THEIR student.

If each generation culls out a few techniques they find to be impractical eventually you end up with fairly slim pickin's.

I agree that some techniques that we practice in MSK HKD take a LOT of time to master before they become effective. Spending time on those is, to me, what fosters growth in an individual  and therefore they have value even to an individual who is NEVER able to make it effective.

And THAT is what makes it hapki*DO* instead of hapki*JUTSU*, so to speak (I guess I should actually say HapkiSUL )


My opinion is, that if GM P wanted to market his system without attracting criticism from traditional styles, he would have been better of by stating that:

"These are the techniques I find most useful. Given the limited time many people have to train in today's world, this is a pared down system of techniques I believe to be most effective."

Hard to argue with that  it doesn't bash anyone. Seems to be he is reaping what he sowed.

But those of you training CHKD: sorry you are caught up taking flack for your founder's marketing decisions.

I'm sure you guys are learning and training some good stuff. If I moved somewhere where CHKD was a HKD option, I would check out the instructor along with the instructors of the other HKD options, if any.

Whichever dojang I ended up at, I would be respectful and work the material they asked me to train, and do it like they asked while in their class.

At home, I would continue to hone techniques that I have learned in the Moo Sul Kwan system. There are some techniques I don't think I could use effectively  but I would train them as best as I can in the event I end up teaching a student who might find that technique to be, for them, effective and desirable.


I guess what I'm trying to say is, respect should be a two way street and it seems to me (and I guess I could be wrong) that GM P disrespected traditional HKD first.



I think it would be fun and interesting to do a side-by-side comparison of Moo Sul Kwan and Combat hapkidos and see what we are training, if anything, that GM P consider ineffective and why.

I'd like to see what we do differently.

Also, I would like to see what we are doing the same.


But I am not passing judgement based on what I see on videos. I think I would need to work in person with someone well versed in CHKD before I could really form an opinion.


----------



## Hollywood1340

This will be my last post on this thread. Folks, it's been written to death in his own words why GMP did what he did. I'm not going to rehash it here. It seems to many who have not actually studied up on CHKD that they enter into it with preconceived notions and a misunderstanding about the intent and focus of this self defense system. Nothing I say will clear that up for you. It takes face time to evaluate what GMP has done for better or worse. Go seek out a seminar or school, speak to headquarters with what I see are some legitimate questions, and spend some mat time, and then come back with any questions you have. In the meantime no matter what you train in, enjoy it. It works for you as CHKD has worked for me.
Yours in the arts,


----------



## Drac

dortiz said:


> When did 3 seminars a year become a standard for training in anything??


 
I never said it was a standard, I was guessing...I attended as many seminars as I could because I could not find a local school..




dortiz said:


> Many Hapkido schools run from warm up to stretching to kicking and striking to rolling and falls and then to Techniques and weapons. Some dont do any kicking, some do more weapons than others. All do several days a week of partner on partner touch, feel, grab, throw etc. THE CRITICAL POINT!! lots of interaction to feel where a technique works and how and how on many different styles of folks. This is how one learns to adapt and flow.


 
We do our stretching and then rolling and falls and then we work with a partner on a variety of drills that place the emphasis on interaction..Defences against knives, handguns and clubs..




dortiz said:


> One technique rarely works. Thats the other secret. Its being able to transition based on feel and the other persons reaction. Again, this comes from practice.


 
Bravo, well said...That is a main point with me also..I tell students that if an attempted techique is not working MOVE ON TO SOMETHING ELSE or DISENGAGE...


----------



## Drac

I am going to join Hollywood 1340 and leave this post...Far too many people that seem to know everything about Hapkido and everything wrong with Combat Hapkido..I have used CHKD while working as an officer in a variety of self defense situations where if I screwed it would have been my ****..I am very happy with it and will continue to study for as long as I can...For those few that still have a problem with GMP or CHKD, ATTEND A SEMINAR..Seek out one of the individuals in attendance that hold the same rank as you and work out with him..Then come back and tell us about it..


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## dortiz

Clearly CHKD had drawn in great players that seem to be strengthening its ranks. My current interactions have been with a great guy Named Thomas Morrison and now reading these posts I again see folks with great integrity.
Clearly good people and that makes a great organization.
My sense is that maybe some of the early marketing was trying to lure HKD folks over and maybe some bad word choices were made. At the same time it sounds like folks are getting what they need and thats what really matters.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

The Passedena Maryland seminar has come and gone, and I was unable to attend.  However, one of the guys from our school *did* attend.  This gentleman is a fourth dan and an instructor, and fairly traditional, just for perspective.  This was the feedback that he gave.

Firstly, he liked it.  

I asked him about what he thought of the techniques and he said that it was right in line with his reasons for practicing hapkido in the first place.  The techniques were all solid and practical and geared towards self defense.

He did comment that there was a strong emphasis on low kicks, which both he and I agree with.  He said that the techniques had some base in hapkido, but were not the same as ours.  He still felt that it is hapkido, however.

I asked him if GMP conducted the seminar, and he said that he had and that he had been GMP's throw dummy a couple of times.  He had high regard for GMP's execution.  

Since comments about his footwork have been made on many CHKD threads, I specifically asked him about it, particularly the smaller steps that he took in some of the videos that I have seen.  He said that there was none of that and that GMP was very, very smooth and his footwork solid.  

While I did not see it personally, this gent's evaluation was good enough for me to assume that GMP is capable and has a solid foundation.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> Unless someone from a traditional Hapkido discipline logs on here and talks about their training we have nothing to compair it too...


Our school is a traditional school.

Lineage: Choi Yong Sul> Ji Han Jae> Myung Jae Nam> Kim Hee Wk.  Kim Hee Wk is my instructor.  He broke off and started his own association, but came up through Myung Jae Nam's organization, the International Hapkido Federation.  Several students with whom I have trained came from the same federation and apparently, not much is different with KJN Kim.  

We are taught the principles of hwa, won (circular), and yu and to execute our techniques accordingly.  We do danjun breathing, learn Korean terminology, and do stance work and footwork drills.  Our footwork is circular rather than linear.  We also do breaking.

We practice low, mid, and high kicks.  We practice punching: straight reverse, jabs, hooks, uppercuts, hammer fists, and back-fists,  and we practice other hand strikes as well: knife hand, spear hand, ridge hand, and palm strikes.

We practice open handed blocks: palm and knife hand, all in a circular fashion.

Our hoshinsul involves defenses against strikes, defense against same side single hand grabs, cross single hand grabs, two hands grabbing one hand, both hands grabbing both hands, clothing grabs, hugs, and all of the above from behind, as well as defending from a prone position.

Some of our entries involve strikes, though we tend to focus more on redirecting the attack, grabbing, and applying either a lock or a throw.  

We do free sparring and apply the techniques against resisting opponents.

At first dan, we learn defenses against knifes and guns and defense against two attackers.

At second dan, we learn defense against the sword, defense against the knife using a belt, and defense against three attackers.

At third dan cane defense techniques are added and defense against four attackers is taught.

I have answered who my instructor is.  I have furnished his lineage.  I have given an overview of our curriculum.  I would hope that a comparison of some kind can now be made.



Drac said:


> I really hope you can make a seminar and experience it for yourself.


I would like to, though my time is limited.  When I get the opportunity, I will definitely post about it.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> I am going to join Hollywood 1340 and leave this post..*.Far too many people that seem to know everything about Hapkido and everything wrong with Combat Hapkido.*.I have used CHKD while working as an officer in a variety of self defense situations where if I screwed it would have been my ****..I am very happy with it and will continue to study for as long as I can...For those few that still have a problem with GMP or CHKD, ATTEND A SEMINAR..Seek out one of the individuals in attendance that hold the same rank as you and work out with him..Then come back and tell us about it..


So far, this thread has not been a diatribe of all that is wrong with CHKD.  The criticism that has come came on page three after numerous questions were asked and have been answered either ambiguously or with a quick comment followed by a deferment to the home office or to a seminar.

I do plan to call the home office.  I will post about that after I have done so.  I also have made it plain in several of these threads that I am open to and would like to attend a seminar.

I have also made it plain that I am of an open mind about the system and, frankly, have done everything that is within my capabilities to address uninformed criticism and/or outright bashing of the system.

I had hoped to have an informed and non-contentious discussion take place on the subject with this thread.

I am still hoping for that.

I hope that I do not offend, but I must state that it is disconcerting to ask what I consider to be fairly basic questions and to have them deferred to the home  office or be told that I need to pay for a seminar to see the answers.  I realize that some of you have been through some fairly negative discussions here in the past, so I can understand a degree of reticence, but I still find it disconcerting nonetheless.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

Just an update.  I called the home office and left a message this morning.  Being that I am on the east coast, I would suspect that they were probably still asleep when I called.

I went to the Defensive Services International, Inc homepage and found that in GMP's bio, his ninth dan is through World Kido Federation/Hanminjok Hapkido Federation.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Just an update.  I called the home office and left a message this morning.  Being that I am on the east coast, I would suspect that they were probably still asleep when I called.
> 
> I went to the Defensive Services International, Inc homepage and found that in GMP's bio, *his ninth dan is through World Kido Federation/Hanminjok Hapkido Federation*.
> 
> Daniel


And a further update.  I got a call back.... from Grand Master Pelligrini himself!

I told him why I was calling and referenced the MT thread.  He answered my questions and was very open.  I wish that I had been more prepared, as I would have taken notes and such.

He did confirm his lineage with me, studying with GM Mike  Wollmershauser.  He mentioned other names with whom he had trained early  on, but I was not familiar with them and did not catch them; he speaks a  little fast and it took me sometime to get used to his accent; he is  very Italian. 

I asked GMP about how CHKD addresses the self defense needs for the modern era in a different way than traditional hapkido.  

His answer was, in a nutshell, that many schools teach hapkido with an emphasize on acrobatic breakfalls, high kicks, and larger movements.  He said that some schools are more aikido-like and have more of a spiritual empasis, some have a strong base in judo, while still others are about personal development, and even others mainly about fitness.  He then stated, "*None of these are bad.*"  

He started off saying that at the time that many traditional arts (not HKD) are hundreds of years old and that the way that they are taught never changes, which is a practice that he disagrees with.  He mentioned that they were developed for people wearing different clothing, often to only one class of people, with either older people, children, or different classes of society not being taught in some cases depending on the art.

Some of those who study CHKD are in their forties, fifties, or even their seventies.

He said that his hapkido is not better than other style of hapkido, but that all kwans and all schools do not all address the same needs or the same demographic.  He said that some schools are not practical enough, while others are actually too brutal for use in, say, an LEO environment where the officers do not want to be brutal but still need to restrain an offender.

He also mentioned that he works with military personnel who are in an environment where they are wearing fatigues and carrying sixty pounds of gear, so he teaches techniques differently for that environment.

He said that CHKD focuses on close quarters self defense, joint locks, pressure points, and practical strikes, rather than some of the more arty aspects.

To lay this dog to rest once and for all, he did state that what he does "*is hapkido*" and that it is hapkido practiced in the way that he has found to the most useful for him and those who study his system. 

He stated that they do use circular movement, but it is small circle, rather than larger circles or larger motions.  This fits with what I have seen, as CHKD seems more linear than what I practice.

When we concluded our call, I thanked him for his time and he thanked me for calling.  I asked him if he would send me some information on CHKD and he took my address and said that he would.

My own conclusions:  

Firstly, the man came across as a very decent and personable man.  The fact that he called me back personally has increased my respect for him.  He spoke with me for well over a half an hour, and in no way did he try to hurry through or blow me off.  

Secondly, he did not denigrate or criticize other systems in any way during our conversation (nor has he in what few interview that I have read) or in any way demonize traditional hapkido.  In fact, he said that in other more traditional systems, there was a great deal of value and goodness.  

Finally, he has put together what he sees as practical and has tried to make it available and attainable to as many people as possible through schools, distance learning, and seminars.

And that was my first phone call with Grandmaster John Pelligrini.

Daniel


----------



## dortiz

Wow! Well that does say a lot. At least it confirms the integrity issue I keep finding. I should not have argued the points whether I believe them or not. Its not helpfull.
For me the lesson learned here was that Hollywood and Drac took the path of nonresistence. True Hapkidoin.
I learnred something ; )
Sounds like the seminar was good and folks are getting a lot out of it. 

I have issues but I am known for that . Good thread.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dortiz said:


> For me the lesson learned here was that Hollywood and Drac took the path of nonresistence. True Hapkidoin.
> I learnred something ; )


I as well 

Though I restate that I had no issues with CHKD.  I started this thread due to the lack of knowledge of the system expressed by some of the more outspoken detractors who couldn't get past either marketing, nomenclature, or perceived footwork issues, which apparently are as Dancing had said, an issue of explaining while moving, as virtually everyone who has been to the seminars and seen him in person states that he is very smooth.

Daniel


----------



## J Ellis

Mr. Sullivan,

Thanks for your effort and for sharing the information you have found regarding CHKD. It is greatly appreciated and helpful.

Joel


----------



## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> My own conclusions: he did not denigrate or criticize other systems in any way during our conversation (nor has he in what few interview that I have read) or in any way demonize traditional hapkido. In fact, he said that in other more traditional systems, there was a great deal of value and goodness.


 
I think I posted this once before..In all the time I have spent in his presence he has *NEVER *put down any other art or its Founder..


----------



## tellner

Since I practice an obscure, obsolete, effete, low-class martial art which lacks a serious advertising budget I don't have a horse in this race. But I would respectfully submit that there is a point to sword defenses. 

They have little or nothing to do with defending yourself against someone with a sword. For the most part if you're going up barehanded against a quarter-assed swordsman you're just going to die. They are excellent training in working the margins of your distance and timing, especially if you're used to compensating with strength, speed or reach.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

tellner said:


> But I would respectfully submit that there is a point to sword defenses.
> 
> They have little or nothing to do with defending yourself against someone with a sword. For the most part if you're going up barehanded against a quarter-assed swordsman you're just going to die. They are excellent training in working the margins of your distance and timing, especially if you're used to compensating with strength, speed or reach.


Absolutely.  Which is why we practice them in our school.  

All things considered, the availability of machetes in most hardware and sporting goods stores means that there is still a potential need for defense against one.  Also, last year in Maryland, there was an incident where a burglar ended up dead due to a severed hand and partial cutting of his throat because the guy he chose to rob had a katana and was using it for self defense.

While in that instance, the guy with the sword was the defender, there is absolutely nothing to prevent an off-his/her-rocker person from using a sword to commit assault and/or murder instead of a baseball bat or a crowbar.  There are more places in Lake Forest Mall in Gaithersburg Maryland to buy a sword than there are to buy a baseball bat or a crowbar, both of which practice of sword defenses can help you with too.

Daniel


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## zDom

Yep.

And, fwiw, probably more likely to face a dumb-assed "swordsman" (i.e., nutcase with a wall-hanger katana) than even 1/8-assed swordsman 

In ANY case, doing SOMETHING is better than just standing there waiting to be cut down. Slim chance is better than zero chance.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Okay, so back to the topic at hand.

I have mad the following observations based on the posts of CHKD practitioners, at least one person who has some of the videos, and the first hand conversation with GMP:

1. That CHKD *does* contain, on some level, the core hapkido principles of hwa, won, and yu.  

2. That CHKD, like HKD, has strikes, but they are utilized to a greater degree than they apparently are in many other HKD kwans. 

3. That the strikes in question are geared towards practical use and not towards what is generally considered more on the arty side (such as high kicks, spinning kicks, etc.)

4. That CHKD is a small circle HKD, something that the system is not alone in.

5. That CHKD focuses on close quarters *combat* and self defense.  A good reason for the choice of name that does not imply anything about other systems.

6. That the founder himself stated explicitly that it is hapkido.

7. CHKD falls somewhere in between teh d3adly and the more flowery Aikido like HKD or more aerobic/exhibition hapkido styles in terms of its intent and content.  It is designed to keep you alive, but is not geared towards generation of a body count.

Thoughts?

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Okay, so back to the topic at hand.
> 
> I have mad the following observations based on the posts of CHKD practitioners, at least one person who has some of the videos, and the first hand conversation with GMP:
> 
> 1. That CHKD *does* contain, on some level, the core hapkido principles of hwa, won, and yu.
> 
> 2. That CHKD, like HKD, has strikes, but they are utilized to a greater degree than they apparently are in many other HKD kwans.
> 
> 3. That the strikes in question are geared towards practical use and not towards what is generally considered more on the arty side (such as high kicks, spinning kicks, etc.)
> 
> 4. That CHKD is a small circle HKD, something that the system is not alone in.
> 
> 5. That CHKD focuses on close quarters *combat* and self defense.  A good reason for the choice of name that does not imply anything about other systems.
> 
> 6. That the founder himself stated explicitly that it is hapkido.
> 
> 7. CHKD falls somewhere in between teh d3adly and the more flowery Aikido like HKD or more aerobic/exhibition hapkido styles in terms of its intent and content.  It is designed to keep you alive, but is not geared towards generation of a body count.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Daniel



Seems like a fair summary to me.  

#4 especially is interesting to me as I remarked before in previous threads that a slightly more linear and smaller circle-based paradigm might make for an easier transition for someone from a striking system to learn.


----------



## J Ellis

I agree. A reasonable summary after a fair hearing.

Joel


----------



## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> We practice low, mid, and high kicks. We practice punching: straight reverse, jabs, hooks, uppercuts, hammer fists, and back-fists, and we practice other hand strikes as well: knife hand, spear hand, ridge hand, and palm strikes.We practice open handed blocks: palm and knife hand, all in a circular fashion.


 
As do we with exceptions. We dont kick above the waist and we prefer the verticle punch..




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Our hoshinsul involves defenses against strikes, defense against same side single hand grabs, cross single hand grabs, two hands grabbing one hand, both hands grabbing both hands, clothing grabs, hugs, and all of the above from behind, as well as defending from a prone position.


 
See we do the same thing..Its in the belt rank requirments..Defenses from a prone position sounds good..We just introduced defenses from a seated position



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Some of our entries involve strikes, though we tend to focus more on redirecting the attack, grabbing, and applying either a lock or a throw. We do free sparring and apply the techniques against resisting opponents.


 
Ditto for us..We do the "monkey-in-the-middle" even our newest students take their turn in the middle..They are attacked slower which give me or Master Steve the time to spot the fatal beginners errors and correct them before they become a habit..



Daniel Sullivan said:


> At first dan, we learn defenses against knifes and guns and defense against two attackers.
> 
> At third dan cane defense techniques are added and defense against four attackers is taught..


 
We start defenses against knives and guns when they reach Yellow Belt.The defenses against 2 attackers is when Master Steve feels they are ready for it...We dont teach cane because I am not that good at it.





Daniel[/quote]


----------



## Haakon

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Okay, so back to the topic at hand.
> 
> I have mad the following observations based on the posts of CHKD practitioners, at least one person who has some of the videos, and the first hand conversation with GMP:
> 
> 1. That CHKD *does* contain, on some level, the core hapkido principles of hwa, won, and yu.
> 
> 2. That CHKD, like HKD, has strikes, but they are utilized to a greater degree than they apparently are in many other HKD kwans.
> 
> 3. That the strikes in question are geared towards practical use and not towards what is generally considered more on the arty side (such as high kicks, spinning kicks, etc.)
> 
> 4. That CHKD is a small circle HKD, something that the system is not alone in.
> 
> 5. That CHKD focuses on close quarters *combat* and self defense.  A good reason for the choice of name that does not imply anything about other systems.
> 
> 6. That the founder himself stated explicitly that it is hapkido.
> 
> 7. CHKD falls somewhere in between teh d3adly and the more flowery Aikido like HKD or more aerobic/exhibition hapkido styles in terms of its intent and content.  It is designed to keep you alive, but is not geared towards generation of a body count.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Daniel



Looks like a fair, accurate, summary to me. I train in a traditional HKD style, but I'd go to a CHKD seminar if/when they have one in the Seattle area.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

An update on my GMP conversation: He had promised to send me materials.  True to his word, they arrived over the weekend. 

I have not had a chance to peruse them, but intend to do so tonight.  

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> As do we with exceptions. We dont kick above the waist and we prefer the verticle punch.


We teach the typical rotating punch.  We train in all three ranges of kicks, mainly because high kicks promote flexibility and range.  Also, while I am not a proponent of high kicks in SD, they can have application under the right conditions.



Drac said:


> See we do the same thing..Its in the belt rank requirments..Defenses from a prone position sounds good..*We just introduced defenses from a seated position*


Is that something that you introduced in your school on your own or part of CHKD?  Or both?



Drac said:


> Ditto for us..We do the "monkey-in-the-middle" even our newest students take their turn in the middle..They are attacked slower which give me or Master Steve the time to spot the fatal beginners errors and correct them before they become a habit..


Love the monkey in the middle drill.



Drac said:


> We start defenses against knives and guns when they reach Yellow Belt.  The defenses against 2 attackers is when Master Steve feels they are ready for it...We dont teach cane because I am not that good at it.


I'm still not sure where I stand on the 'when' of weapon defenses.  I have heard good cases for introducing weapon defenses early and late.

So far, trappings and nomenclature aside, I have yet to see anything that strikes me as radically different from "traditional"  Everything that both GMP and yourself and Hollywood described would fall into what is considered "traditional" hapkido.  

Now, my personal exposure to CHKD is not enough for me to say that with any authority, so if that is not the case, I am curious as to what constitutes the difference.  Not interested in saying that they are good or bad, just trying to become more educated on the subject and to promote an educated discussion.  I think that the system deserves that, given how readily some people jump to attack it.

Daniel


----------



## terrylamar

dancingalone said:


> ...
> 
> The videos do not teach breakfalls or rolls. They just list them as a requirement for attaining a certain belt. I believe off the top of my head you need these for the yellow belt.
> 
> forward roll
> backward roll
> side breakfall
> 
> It seems beyond odd to me that any 'video learning' system could leave out some very fundamental techniques that are absolutely needed before one could learn throws or take downs.
> 
> ...
> 
> The CH DVD just states that you should learn these in person from a CH instructor. Well and good, but that seems to indicate to me that in fact the video learning program is not meant to be the sole source of instruction, which in the end is probably a very good thing.


 
I am a little late to this discussion, but let me put in my two cents worth.  I have not read this entire thread yet and these question may have been addressed.

There have been several videos for Combat Hapkido.  I don't know the complete history, but I have VCR's I bought in the early 90's, the may have been produced as early as the late 80's.  The most current are the HD DVD's released two or three years ago.

These DVD's do have the required falls demonstrated my Master Rivas.  I don't remember if the earlier VCR's did or not, I don't even have a VCR player anymore.  It might be interesting to go back and review them again to see the various changes in the system over a 10 year period.

Each individual instructor will emphasize falls according to his interest.  Nevertheless, demonstrated proficiencies are required for advancement.  Even if your instructor is lax in his instruction, soon or later, you will have to learn them.  

When I had my school I did empasize them and they were practiced each class to some degree and on occaisions the majority of the class was spent on the required falls as wells as others I learned in a Traditional Hapkido School.


----------



## terrylamar

goingd said:


> Other than teaching gun defense as opposed to, say, sword defense, I do not see what is more effective about it as compared martial arts of the 1800's and prior. Back then, a knife was still a knife, and a punch was still a punch, no?


 
Combat Hapkido has taken a complete Tradidional Hapkido System and parred down the 5,000(?) techniques to a fewer, more applicable techniques to the modern world.  It also has, in some instances, gone outside of Hapkido and included effective techniques from other Martial Arts Systems.



> One other question I'd like to add:
> Does CH emphasize stretching to build flexibility?


 
No, Combat Hapkido does not emphasize stretching.  Stretching is not included into the system.  Each instructor will include stretching as he sees fit.  In many cases Combat Hapkido is not taught as a stand alone system, but is added on to another system.

While Combat is a complete system each instructor is free to include techniques from other systems, but cannot take away from the core Combat System.


----------



## terrylamar

Hollywood1340 said:


> Found a video of CHKD at a base level. Some may never take it farther then this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a CHKD student and instructor I have several problems with this. There is no "attitude" shown by either attacker or defender. I taught and teach to actually make contact with your distractions. You fight like you train. Nothing is more distracting then NOT making contact and having them look at you while you figure out what to do next.


 
This is the beauty of the Combat Hapkido model.  You, the instructor, are free and encouraged to add the realism as you see fit.  The first DVD addresses this concept and then explains it will be omitted for brevity sakes.  The demonstrators in the youtube tape are demonstrating the clinical techniques.  Any competent instructor will include the realistic "attitude."  Indeed, you will fight as you train, this is a well known concept in the Military as well as the *Martial *Arts.


----------



## terrylamar

J Ellis said:


> Also how many of these teachers brought significant experience with them when they began studying CHKD?
> 
> As an example, I had over three years of training in jujutsu, judo, and karate before I began studying Kenpo, and I have trained the IKCA curriculum under in-person instructors since day one. The videos have always been a reference tool, not a stand alone learning program for me. I suspect there are a number of CHKD converts in a similar position. Even if someone relied primarily on seminars for hands on guidance, a background in traditional hapkido, jujutsu, or aikido would make it much easier to integrate the material taught on the videos without seeing an instructor every day.
> 
> Joel


 
I think this is true of any skill you learn during your life.  Everyone brings their previous experiences with them and over time will keep certain techniques or discard them if found to be impractacle or ineffective.

My personal belief is that you should gain a proficiency in your base style and then you should explore other styles, including or descarding techniques, what works for you or doesn't,  in your own personal skill set.  I am not a purest.


----------



## goingd

terrylamar said:


> Combat Hapkido has taken a complete Tradidional Hapkido System and parred down the 5,000(?) techniques to a fewer, more applicable techniques to the modern world.  It also has, in some instances, gone outside of Hapkido and included effective techniques from other Martial Arts Systems.



You see, that is something I don't quite understand. I have never understood traditional Hapkido to consist of thousands of techniques - rather, it is really only a handful of techniques that are expanded upon with variations, adaptations and extensions. I can see a lot of what Combat Hapkido leaves out from traditional Hapkido, and some of it I can understand the reasoning behind the label of impracticality. However, there are a few basic techniques that I have not seen in Combat Hapkido (perhaps they simply have not been shown in any online videos) that, at least personally, I feel are very practical.


----------



## Hollywood1340

goingd said:


> However, there are a few basic techniques that I have not seen in Combat Hapkido (perhaps they simply have not been shown in any online videos) that, at least personally, I feel are very practical.


Such as?


----------



## terrylamar

goingd said:


> You see, that is something I don't quite understand. I have never understood traditional Hapkido to consist of thousands of techniques - rather, it is really only a handful of techniques that are expanded upon with variations, adaptations and extensions. I can see a lot of what Combat Hapkido leaves out from traditional Hapkido, and some of it I can understand the reasoning behind the label of impracticality. However, there are a few basic techniques that I have not seen in Combat Hapkido (perhaps they simply have not been shown in any online videos) that, at least personally, I feel are very practical.


 
Perhaps, if you describe the technique or link to an online video I will attempt to tell you if it is in the system or not.  Not that I consider myself to be the authority on the subject.  There are more experienced posters on this forum.


----------



## terrylamar

goingd said:


> From Wikipedia:
> "Combat Hapkido's focus means it has deleted some traditional Hapkido techniques which may be impractical for modern self-defense scenarios"
> 
> Description for the book, Combat Hapkido: The Martial Art for the Modern Warrior:
> "Intending to bring a classical art into the modern world, this guidebook contains the wisdom and experience behind the art of combat hapkido."
> "this manual discusses the evolution of hapkido into a modern art for self-defense"
> 
> It seems to me that it is being said, in fact, that CH is more suited for a modern society than traditional Hapkido. I simply struggle to see just how.


 
My personal opinion is that Combat Hapkido has a more direct approach as it does not teach thousands of techniques found in some traditional hapkido systems.  You get to the more practical, effective techniques quicker.  

If 100 techniques are taught, you can master them more quickly than if 5,000 are taught.  I am not saying Combat Hapkido is better, just a more bare bones, yet complete system.  In my opinion.


----------



## terrylamar

Drac said:


> Unless someone from a traditional Hapkido discipline logs on here and talks about their training we have nothing to compair it to ...


 
I have experience in both a traditional Hapkido system and Combat Hapkido.  I have Black Belts in both.  I don't see much of a difference in either.  Having said that, I was the instructor in Combat Hapkido and alot of my teaching style came from my traditional Hapkido experience.  

Combat Hapkido gives you a skeleton of core techniques and the instructor is free to flesh out the curriculum, as he sees fit, as long as the core concept are taught.


----------



## terrylamar

Well, I just finished this thread and I am pleasantly suprised how this thread turned out.  It is amazing what an open mind and questions to the sourcs will clear up a lot of misconceptions.

Thank you, Daniel Sullivan, for starting this thread and looking for the truth, even from the source, himself.  What a novel idea.


----------



## goingd

Honestly, I was unable to find three main techniques I had in mind. I really don't think I can describe them too well, but I will post them if I eventually find them.


----------



## goingd

terrylamar said:


> My personal opinion is that Combat Hapkido has a more direct approach as it does not teach thousands of techniques found in some traditional hapkido systems.  You get to the more practical, effective techniques quicker.
> 
> If 100 techniques are taught, you can master them more quickly than if 5,000 are taught.  I am not saying Combat Hapkido is better, just a more bare bones, yet complete system.  In my opinion.



Again, that is something I simply just do not see. This may be very true as compared to some traditional Hapkido schools, but certainly not all, nor do I think most. I just have a hard time seeing how CH is supposed to have a smaller selection of techniques. Again, I understand that at the core it does not focus on forms, breathing techniques, and high kicks. But, other than the breathing, I don't see much of a difference as most Hapkido systems don't focus on forms, and many don't focus on high kicks. I find it confusing, that's all.


----------



## Hollywood1340

goingd said:


> Honestly, I was unable to find three main techniques I had in mind. I really don't think I can describe them too well, but I will post them if I eventually find them.



So we have basics that can't be explained. Prehaps a video? If they are as common as you believe we may just know what you're talking about.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

terrylamar said:


> I have experience in both a traditional Hapkido system and Combat Hapkido.  I have Black Belts in both.  *I don't see much of a difference in either.*  Having said that, I was the instructor in Combat Hapkido and alot of my teaching style came from my traditional Hapkido experience.


My impressions based on what GMP said on the phone and the material he sent me is the same.  What was laid out in the material he sent looked, quite honestly, fairly, well.... traditional.

I will respond with a detailed post when I have the material in front of me.

Daniel


----------



## Hollywood1340

Daniel Sullivan said:


> My impressions based on what GMP said on the phone and the material he sent me is the same.  What was laid out in the material he sent looked, quite honestly, fairly, well.... traditional.
> 
> I will respond with a detailed post when I have the material in front of me.
> 
> Daniel



We've been saying this for years. Only takes the time to investigate to find out it. Good on ya Daniel!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Hollywood1340 said:


> We've been saying this for years. *Only takes the time to investigate to find out it*. Good on ya Daniel!


Thanks!

That was actually prompted me to start this thread.  I saw that when the detractors were pressed about what aspects of the curriculum they disliked or considered flawed, none of the could answer and virtually all of them said that they did not know the curriculum to any degree.

Criticisms seemed to be confined to personal opinions of GMP and the option of distance learning, neither of which really has anything to do with the system.

Daniel


----------



## goingd

Hollywood1340 said:


> So we have basics that can't be explained. Prehaps a video? If they are as common as you believe we may just know what you're talking about.



Well, like I said, I could not find the videos (and I don't think I referred to the techniques as being all that common). I suppose, though, that I can try and explain them:

1. (defense against punch) Step back and grab both the wrist and the arm. Pull your opponent through and flip them into a throw. (this technique only uses the hands to throw - no hips, shoulders, etc.)

2. (defense against punch) Step back and grab the punching hand on the inside with one hand. Pull your opponent in while stepping back again and grabbing with your other hand; at the same time drop your center and twist your opponent's wrist to the outside to drop them to the ground. (this technique can also be done by stepping in and is often also used as a defense against a straight knife stab)

3. (defense against inside wrist grab) Grab your opponents wrist with the same hand that is being grabbed, then twist your body to face away from your opponent while maintaining your grip and simultaneously bring their arm next to your head. Grab their elbow with your other hand, drop your center and take them down to the ground. (usually followed with a punch or another striking technique)
Edit: Actually this third technique is demonstrated in this video at about 1:50 -


----------



## goingd

Hollywood1340 said:


> We've been saying this for years.



Then why say that, as a system, it is not traditional? Honestly, I am just curious, and not at all intending to criticize.


----------



## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Criticisms seemed to be confined to personal opinions of GMP and the option of distance learning, neither of which really has anything to do with the system.


 
That's about it..Some folks have a real problem with the name of the system..


----------



## Hollywood1340

goingd said:


> Then why say that, as a system, it is not traditional? Honestly, I am just curious, and not at all intending to criticize.


 
The answers have been answered here on this thread and others as well as published interviews. As I suggested before, do some research and the answers are out there. One must be willing to A: look for it and B: Accept and understand it.


----------



## Hollywood1340

goingd said:


> Well, like I said, I could not find the videos (and I don't think I referred to the techniques as being all that common). I suppose, though, that I can try and explain them:
> 
> 1. (defense against punch) Step back and grab both the wrist and the arm. Pull your opponent through and flip them into a throw. (this technique only uses the hands to throw - no hips, shoulders, etc.)
> 
> 2. (defense against punch) Step back and grab the punching hand on the inside with one hand. Pull your opponent in while stepping back again and grabbing with your other hand; at the same time drop your center and twist your opponent's wrist to the outside to drop them to the ground. (this technique can also be done by stepping in and is often also used as a defense against a straight knife stab)
> 
> 3. (defense against inside wrist grab) Grab your opponents wrist with the same hand that is being grabbed, then twist your body to face away from your opponent while maintaining your grip and simultaneously bring their arm next to your head. Grab their elbow with your other hand, drop your center and take them down to the ground. (usually followed with a punch or another striking technique)
> Edit: Actually this third technique is demonstrated in this video at about 1:50 -



I am familiar with these techniques and were taught them in the CHKD curriculum. The one on YT was one of my favorites and I think there is video of GMP demonstrating it out there. If you'd like to know more, you can pick up the complete syllabus on DVD.


----------



## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> We teach the typical rotating punch. We train in all three ranges of kicks, mainly because high kicks promote flexibility and range.


 
We dont teach the rotating punch..





Daniel Sullivan said:


> Also, while I am not a proponent of high kicks in SD, they can have application under the right conditions.


 
Yes, under the right circumstances a high kick can be devistating..If the student came from another system and is a good kicker we show them how to blend it with CH.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Is that something that you introduced in your school on your own or part of CHKD? Or both?.


 
We introduced defenses from a seated position, and is not part of the system.But an attack can happen any place at anytime we felt it would be a good subject to investigate..




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Love the monkey in the middle drill.?.


 
Even our newest students who were at first very frightened of the exercise now WANT to do it..




Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'm still not sure where I stand on the 'when' of weapon defenses. I have heard good cases for introducing weapon defenses early and late..?.


 
I and Master Steve believe in starting the defenses against weapons early.It helps to eliminate the fear..



Daniel Sullivan said:


> So far, trappings and nomenclature aside, I have yet to see anything that strikes me as radically different from "traditional" Everything that both GMP and yourself and Hollywood described would fall into what is considered "traditional" hapkido..


 
Watch what ya say..You'll have one of the know-it-alls log on and tell you that you dont know what you are talking about...LOL



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not interested in saying that they are good or bad, just trying to become more educated on the subject and to promote an educated discussion. I think that the system deserves that, given how readily some people jump to attack it...


 
You are among the few that WANT to be educated..Some prefer to just attack GMP and CHKD.


----------



## goingd

Hollywood1340 said:


> The answers have been answered here on this thread and others as well as published interviews. As I suggested before, do some research and the answers are out there. One must be willing to A: look for it and B: Accept and understand it.



The answers simply did not make sense to me - those on this thread and those presented in interviews. It has nothing to do with accepting it - I have no intention of forcing something to make sense. However, I am afraid my question deters from the topic, so never mind.


----------



## goingd

Hollywood1340 said:


> I am familiar with these techniques and were taught them in the CHKD curriculum. The one on YT was one of my favorites and I think there is video of GMP demonstrating it out there. If you'd like to know more, you can pick up the complete syllabus on DVD.



That is good to know and serves to provide more information about the system, but also serves to further confuse me. Ah well.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> We dont teach the rotating punch..


We use the rotating punch for reverse punches, but we also make use of jabs, upper cuts, and hooks, which do not rotate.



Drac said:


> Yes, under the right circumstances a high kick can be devistating..If the student came from another system and is a good kicker we show them how to blend it with CH.


A good approach. 

We have high kicks integrated into our system already, so a good kicker from another style simply can apply his or her ability as the curriculum unfolds.



Drac said:


> We introduced defenses from a seated position, and is not part of the system.*But an attack can happen any place at anytime *we felt it would be a good subject to investigate..


Most definitely.



Drac said:


> Even our newest students who were at first very frightened of the exercise now WANT to do it..


Monkey in the middle is a good drill to help students overcome fear.




Drac said:


> I and Master Steve believe in starting the defenses against weapons early.It helps to eliminate the fear..


Again, a good approach.



Drac said:


> Watch what ya say..You'll have one of the know-it-alls log on and tell you that you dont know what you are talking about...LOL


Bring it on. Unless they have done the research to support their opinions, it will be a short conversation. As I said, a lot of the critics tend to slam the system in general and then zero in on criticisms of GMP, which may or may not have any basis in actual fact, and of distance learning/ranking, which is really separate from the system. 

I will admit that I have my own reservations about the distance learning/ranking. I think that it is generally fine for advanced hapkido students, or students who have a similar technical base in another art, but I am against a fresh student going from white to black belt in a non-sport system completely via video lessons.

But, again, that is really not a reservation about the system but about the delivery method.



Drac said:


> You are among the few that WANT to be educated..Some prefer to just attack GMP and CHKD.


Well, not being interested in attacking individuals in an online medium, all that really remains is exchange of information to increase my knowledge base. That and good conversation with good people.

Daniel


----------



## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Bring it on. Unless they have done the research to support their opinions, it will be a short conversation. As I said, a lot of the critics tend to slam the system in general and then zero in on criticisms of GMP, which may or may not have any basis in actual fact, and of distance learning/ranking, which is really separate from the system.


 
That's just it..Many have not done ANY research.They just believe that their discipline is the best..





Daniel Sullivan said:


> I will admit that I have my own reservations about the distance learning/ranking.


 
As do I




Daniel Sullivan said:


> I think that it is generally fine for advanced hapkido students, or students who have a similar technical base in another art, but I am against a fresh student going from white to black belt in a non-sport system completely via video lessons.But, again, that is really not a reservation about the system but about the delivery method


 
I agree..I do not know anything about the whole distance learning system..For answers to those questions you must contact ICHF HQ..




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, not being interested in attacking individuals in an online medium, all that really remains is exchange of information to increase my knowledge base. That and good conversation with good people.


 
You and I share that too..Like I said before, I have spent a good amount of time around GMP and have *NEVER* heard him slam any other Grandmaster,Sifu or Sensei or their respective disciplines.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> I agree..I do not know anything about the whole  distance learning system..For answers to those questions you must  contact ICHF HQ.


 I cannot imagine that it is any different from that of Chuck Sullivan's  IKCA distance learning program.  The videos present the material, you  learn it visually and film your test with a training partner according  to the guidelines set forth by the organization and send it in to be  reviewed.



Drac said:


> You and I share that too..Like I said before, I have  spent a good amount of time around GMP and have *NEVER*  heard him slam any other Grandmaster,Sifu or Sensei or their respective  disciplines.


In my conversation with him, he was very respectful when talking about other systems.  Even those with the more 'arty' focus he said were beneficial and good; just not what his system focused on.

He also stated that people get involved with the martial arts for different reasons, so each system has its core group to whom it appeals.

Daniel


----------



## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I cannot imagine that it is any different from that of Chuck Sullivan's IKCA distance learning program. The videos present the material, you learn it visually and film your test with a training partner according to the guidelines set forth by the organization and send it in to be reviewed.


 
There are some distance learning systems out there that will ship you your black belt and certificate once you pay in full..




Daniel Sullivan said:


> In my conversation with him, he was very respectful when talking about other systems. Even those with the more 'arty' focus he said were beneficial and good; just not what his system focused on.


 
Yep, that is exactally the way he talks..Unlike a lot of people out there he doesnt talk about his art or MA all the time..He has a wide range of subjects he is quite conversant in..





Daniel Sullivan said:


> He also stated that people get involved with the martial arts for different reasons, so each system has its core group to whom it appeals.


 
True..


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> There are some distance learning systems out there that will ship you your black belt and certificate once you pay in full..


While that may be true, I do not see CHKD or IKCA as being among those.

From what I understand, you send in your video and it is evaluated and then your rank is confirmed or denied.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Okay, I actually have the information  packet that GMP sent me.

I am treating this as what it is: promotional material as opposed to a  scholarly work, thus I will not be critical of obvious marketing.

It has GMP on the cover in four different pictures.  One is him in his  navy dobok with the cream cuffs and lapel trim and over-sized patch  standing relaxed with his hands crossed at the belt..  The next is him  in a cobalt blue dobok with a very thick belt and sleeves with stars and  stripes standing in a defensive posture.  The third is him in  paramilitary gear wearing wraparound shades and holding a machine gun.   The last is him in a polo shirt with his hands on his hips in front of  the American flag.

The inside flap displays his resume, hall of fame inductions, and major  media features.

The first page discusses the organizational goals, benefits, and  advantages.

The following are direct quotes.



> *Goals:*
> To teach the most realistic and effective self defense system.
> To help martial arts instructors grow professionally.
> To provide our members with valuable products and services at reasonable  fees, without oppressive mandates and excessive financial demands.
> To issue legitimate, world class certifications.
> 
> *ICHF Benefits:*
> Improve your skills and advance your knowledge with an effective, modern  and comprehensive system of scientific self defense.
> Enhance your teaching curriculum to attract and retain more adult  students.
> Receive and provide to your students prestigious, world recognized  certifications.
> Belong to a strong, progressive, friendly, and internationally respected  organization.
> Gain the opportunity to meet, befriend, and network with professional  self defense instructors around the world.



I underlined 'friendly' in the description of the organization.  Having spoken directly to the founder, I will back this 100%.  The man was friendly and not the least bit condescending or arrogant.  He spoke to me with professionalism and was very enjoyable.



> *Advantages:*
> Our purpose is to service and benefit our members.  The ICHF is superior  to any other HKD Association because it is highly responsive to the  needs of the martial arts community.



I underlined the above because I see it as a possible point of contention for detractors, who may see it as evidence that he disrespects traditional hapkido or other organizations.  

I say that he is not.  He enumerates why he feels that his *organization* is superior.  He addresses common issues that his organization claims to have addressed.  And as stated before, this is a promotional packet that contains marketing jargon; its a promotional pack so I expect it to be.  Note that he is speaking of his organization, not his system.  I will address what he says about the system in my next post.  This one is lengthy enough as it is.  



> Within the ICHF, you can always  count on:
> 
> *Prompt services.* No waiting several months for certificates or  any other items.
> 
> *Reasonable fees.*  We want you to be prosperous and successful.   The ICHF does not impose heavy financial burdens on schools and  instructors.
> 
> *Recognition.*  The ICHF wants you to be a martial arts  professional with legitimate credentials.  We do not hold back rank.   You will receive the rank you have earned and the promotions you deserve.




I underlined earned and deserved.  So long as rank is  truly _*earned*_, then promotions are deserved.  I also see a theme of wanting 'you', presumably the school owner, to be prosperous and successful.  This could be seized upon as evidence of a money making scheme, except that he again qualifies it by saying that the ICHF does not impose fees.  In other words, he says, 'we want you to do well so we don't bilk you.'  Seems reasonable to me.  He goes on in the following to say that the organization provides solid support for member schools, something that is always helpful to the school owner, regardless of organization.




> *Quality products and services.*  ICHF DVD's, certifications,  merchandise, seminars, and everything that bears our name is of the  highest quality.
> 
> *No* politics, no favoritism, *no* power games, *no*  egos, *no* cult like environment, and *no* exploitation.


 
Again, I do realize that this is a marketing brochure, so I am treating  it as such.  If his organization really does everything that he claims it does, then he has a pretty strong case from an organizational and administrative standpoint.  He addresses many of the common frustrations  and needs that I see voiced by many both here and on other boards: lengthy waits for certifications (though that is often due to school owner shenanigans rather than organizational issues), unreasonable fees, recognition of certifications by an international organization (One of the Kukkiwon's touted benefits), and getting rid of political nonsense.

Regarding ICHF's products and services, I have no products and do not know anyone else who does.  However, I have received first hand feedback on his seminars and they are universally praised, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt on product.

The next part discusses CHKD itself and its differences to 'traditional hapkido,'  Which is really germane to the topic.  That will be for my next post.  I did want to post about 'advantages and benefits' because one of the main points of criticism is that he slams other orgs or systems.  He definitely is promoting his system and org, no question.  But I do *not* feel that, based on my own research, that he does so either at the expense of other orgs, which are highly entrenched anyway, or other systems.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

The following is what he says regarding his system as compared with traditional systems. 




> *The differences between traditional hapkido and combat hapkido*
> Combat hapkido, the modern style of hapkido developed by Grandmaster Pelligrini is the result of over 40 years of martial arts / self defense study, research, application, and synthesis.  It differs from other hapkido styles in several technical areas.  Following are some examples:
> Combat hapkido is 100% self defense.  There are no forms (kata / hyungs) in the system.


Kind of misleading.  Hapkido does not, in general have them either, not in the sense that I think he is referring to, which is solo practice of forms as seen in karate and taekwondo.



> All combat hapkido kicks are directed to the lower part of the body.  We do not teach acrobatic / flying kicks.



Nothing progressive about that.  I frankly see that as *more* traditional.




> Combat hapkido employs break-falls and throws in a very limited and safe manner.


In other words, no acrobatic break-falls and mostly standing grappling.  Again, no issues here.



> Combat hapkido employs no hard blocks or static stances.


As a general rule, neither does any other hapkido.  Sounds traditional to me.



> Combat hapkido does not teach "traditional weapons."  We teach modern self defense skills.


Okay, so his program does not have kobuto.  No problem here.  I do understand that CHKD has some pretty wicked cane techniques though.



> Combat hapkido contains a street proven component of firearm disarming techniques.


I would like clarification on what he means by 'street proven.'  Sounds great, particularly in Blackbeltmag, but I would like to know how he defines the term.



> Combat hapkido, because it is flexible, dynamic, and eclectic, continues to evolve.


Sounds very JKD in approach.



> Combat hapkido is not a sport and cannot be modified nor regulated to be one.  There are no competitions, tournaments, or championships.


Well, I know that at least one large org (the IHF) does have tournaments of some kind (one of my instructors just attended one in Michigan), so what he says is not misrepresenting traditional HKD, though I think that this is the exception rather than the rule.  

No sport or competition.  Sounds traditional to me.



> Breaking boards or any other object is not required nor desirable in combat hapkido.


Nothing wrong here either.  I think that most of us who have been around know that board breaking and such is primarily an exhibition tool to impress onlookers anyway.

The remainder of the packet discusses products, membership, has an FAQ and a membership form.

Overall, I see nothing overly progressive here aside from distance learning / testing and marketing jargon.  He hits all the right buzzwords to promote his system and does his best to look the part.  I really cannot fault him on any of that: the man knows how to promote his product.  As previously stated, I have my own reservations regarding distance learning as it applies to beginning or novice hapkido students, but that is outside of the scope of this thread.

My estimation of his _*system*_, based on what I have read and seen, is that he advocates a back to basics and a no frills approach.  Frankly, I like that and don't see why anyone else has a problem with it.

Daniel


----------



## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Okay, so his program does not have kobuto. No problem here. I do understand that CHKD has some pretty wicked cane techniques though.


 
Grandmaster Mark Shuey Sr of Cane Master is a regular at many of the CHKD seminars and teaches that portion of it..I was the Uke for a couple of techniques, wicked is an understatement..GMP is no slouch with a cane himself..




Daniel Sullivan said:


> I would like clarification on what he means by 'street proven.' Sounds great, particularly in Blackbeltmag, but I would like to know how he defines the term.


 
I know a few officers that have used these techniques while on the job..Its the self defense portion that I have personally used while on duty and they work..




Daniel Sullivan said:


> My estimation of his _*system*_, based on what I have read and seen, is that he advocates a back to basics and a no frills approach. Frankly, I like that and don't see why anyone else has a problem with it.


 
There in lies the mystery..I have seen changes to techniques since I first was introduced to GMP and the ICHF in 2003..As GMP says " We evolve with the changing times"..


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> Grandmaster Mark Shuey Sr of Cane Master is a regular at many of the CHKD seminars and teaches that portion of it..I was the Uke for a couple of techniques, wicked is an understatement..GMP is no slouch with a cane himself..


 My interest is piqued.



Drac said:


> I know a few officers that have used these techniques while on the job..Its the self defense portion that I have personally used while on duty and they work..


 So I assume that he is using feedback from LEO and maybe military personnel?  If that is the case, that seems reasonable.



Drac said:


> There in lies the mystery..I have seen changes to techniques since I first was introduced to GMP and the ICHF in 2003..As GMP says " We evolve with the changing times"..


Well, I would think that a system would evolve.  The landscape of self defense has been considerably altered in the past twenty five years.  The weapons that one can expect to face really haven't, but there has been a shift in where one might expect to have an armed encounter.

Also, much of the 'rough housing' that used to occur between kids that used to give them some kind of basis in unarmed fighting has been virtually eliminated by our super-nanny school systems.  The influx of gangs and the ages at which one can expect to have to deal with them has also shifted.

That said, a no frills system that keeps up with the times is a good thing indeed.

Daniel


----------



## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> My interest is piqued.


 
GM Shuey Sr puts on a hell of a good seminar..He has the speed and flexibility that would shame a 20 year old..I own 3 of his cane and his DVD's..GMP also has a DVD of his cane techniques that is well done




Daniel Sullivan said:


> So I assume that he is using feedback from LEO and maybe military personnel? If that is the case, that seems reasonable.


 
Yes, he has had a few as advisors..




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, I would think that a system would evolve. The landscape of self defense has been considerably altered in the past twenty five years. The weapons that one can expect to face really haven't, but there has been a shift in where one might expect to have an armed encounter.


 
One would think..



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Also, much of the 'rough housing' that used to occur between kids that used to give them some kind of basis in unarmed fighting has been virtually eliminated by our super-nanny school systems. The influx of gangs and the ages at which one can expect to have to deal with them has also shifted.


 
Dont get me started on the organized ignorance that is laughingly called the Board-of-Education..Yes, the gang member get younger and younger every year, and their capacity for violence also seems to increase.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> That said, a no frills system that keeps up with the times is a good thing indeed.


 
Amen


----------



## Drac

My attitude has always been that if you dont like the Grandmaster or the discipline, *DONT STUDY IT !!* No one should give a rats butt *WHAT *the system is called, if it suits your needs then train. Finally show some class and keep the name calling in the elementary school yard where it belongs..


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> My attitude has always been that if you dont like the Grandmaster or the discipline, *DONT STUDY IT !!* No one should give a rats butt *WHAT *the system is called, if it suits your needs then train. Finally show some class and keep the name calling in the elementary school yard where it belongs..


Amen to that!  

Regarding the part highlighted in blue, I wonder how many people would take issue if he referred to it specifically as Jeon-tu kwan.

Daniel


----------



## Drac

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Amen to that!
> 
> Regarding the part highlighted in blue, I wonder how many people would take issue if he referred to it specifically as Jeon-tu kwan.
> 
> Daniel


 
Probably no one....




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Jeon-tu kwan.


 
I thought it was spelled Chon-Tu-Kwan..I could be wrong


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> Probably no one....


 Agreed.



Drac said:


> I thought it was spelled Chon-Tu-Kwan..I could be wrong


Actually, you are not; we're both correct. 

Truth be told, I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out. Here is the hangul:&#51204; &#53804;&#44288; &#54633;&#44592;&#46020;

Depends on the Romanization. That first character (the ^ with a horizontal line over the top) is 'j'.  'CH' looks like the 'J' character with a dash above it.  The l with a dash to the left is generally rendered eo, so I just assumed that it was jeon.

I looked in GMP's literature, however, and you are correct: he calls it *Ch*on Tu.  I checked Wiki and it shows "Chon tu hapkido" in McCune-Reischauer and "Jeon tu hapgido" in Revised Romanization.

We get the same thing with kumdo: it can kum, gum, gom, or geom.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Okay, so after a good amount of digging and discussion, it seems to me that once you strip away marketing (the combat moniker), distance learning, and the paramilitary look sometimes sported by GMP in magazines, CHKD is pretty traditional.  Oh yes, GMP is Italian and not Korean.

Which begs the question (to me at least): why refer to it as being separate from traditional hapkido?

Daniel


----------



## Hollywood1340

I'm beginning to feel like a broken record here. Dig deeper


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Hollywood1340 said:


> I'm beginning to feel like a broken record here. Dig deeper


Happy to do so.

Though I suppose that one other factor is what one means when they say, "traditional."  I have seen almost anything with a belt categorized as traditional by some, while others have more specific definitions.  Another question is whether or not an art that is less than a century old can truly be considered 'traditional' in the grand scheme of martial arts.

Given the eclectic background of modern hapkido, what I have seen so far of CHKD is hardly out of line with other styles of hapkido.

Daniel


----------



## Disco

I'm somewhat surprised at the length of this thread, for this subject has been reviewed more than once and fairly lengthy. I have nothing to offer, except perhaps to go back into the MT history vault and review what's there pertaining to this subject. One may perhaps avail themselves of different viewpoints by folks who no longer participate here on MT. Just a suggestion!


----------



## Drac

Disco said:


> I'm somewhat surprised at the length of this thread, for this subject has been reviewed more than once and fairly lengthy. !


 
I must agree..:deadhorse


----------



## dancingalone

The thread is lengthy because you CHKD guys haven't answered the questions at hand, other than referring Daniel back to GM P.  And that's OK, but I'm not sure where some of the seeming lack of patience for his questions originates from.  He's trying to learn something that I think many here actually are curious about.  What IS different about CHKD?

From what I surmise the answer is a few techniques and ideas taken from BJJ and Filipino martial arts.  Also an overall philosophy to avoid kicking high at all.  Otherwise, there's not much difference at all, but it would be nice for a representative of CHKD on these boards to state so unequivocally.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Disco said:


> I'm somewhat surprised at the length of this thread, for this subject has been reviewed more than once and fairly lengthy. I have nothing to offer, except perhaps to go back into the MT history vault and review what's there pertaining to this subject. One may perhaps avail themselves of different viewpoints by folks who no longer participate here on MT. Just a suggestion!



Prior threads that I have seen over the past year seem to have about a page worth of pseudo discussion followed by seven pages of trolling.  This is a fairly lengthy discussion minus the trolls, which I feel differentiates it quite a bit from previous threads.  

There may be older threads that did not involve trolling, but I had specific questions and I wanted to set a specific tone, so I felt that a fresh start was in order.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> The thread is lengthy because you CHKD guys haven't answered the questions at hand, other than referring Daniel back to GM P.


Given the insane level of trolling that has occurred in previous threads on the subject, I can kind of understand why.



dancingalone said:


> And that's OK, but I'm not sure where some of the seeming lack of patience for his questions originates from.  He's trying to learn something that I think many here actually are curious about.  What IS different about CHKD?
> 
> From what I surmise the answer is a few techniques and ideas taken from BJJ and Filipino martial arts.  Also an overall philosophy to avoid kicking high at all.  Otherwise, there's not much difference at all, but it would be nice for a representative of CHKD on these boards to state so unequivocally.


BJJ and Filipino arts seem to have influenced many, both within and without HKD, so I do not consider these to differentiate CHKD from anything else.  Avoidance of high kicks is also not uncommon in more SD oriented schools, and is, in my opinion, more "traditional," at least in a practical fighting sense, than high kicks are, so I do not consider that to be a differentiating factor either.

Given that the DVDs are not all that expensive, I am seriously considering ordering the vol. 1 DVD (yellow & orange belt) just to see it for myself.  If I really like what I see, I may order the next volume.

Daniel


----------



## Disco

"There may be older threads that did not involve trolling, but I had  specific questions and I wanted to set a specific tone, so I felt that a  fresh start was in order."

The only problem with attempting to look for a "fresh start" is that anyone from those previous years and threads (look at 2001/2002/2003 time frame), who had supposedly actual knowledge of the whys and where fores on this subject are no longer here to offer rebuttals or opposing viewpoints. A few of those referenced people were high ranking Hapkido instructors, so trolls were not the issue. As Hollywood 1340 stated "dig deeper". 

As one can plainly see, the only contributions that have been forthcoming are from those who are directly involved with CHKD. If your wondering why I'm even offering to post on this subject, it's because I'm attempting to assist you with your questions and not be directly involved in something that has no real finality to it. I will however quote Drac here: "My attitude has always been that if you dont like the Grandmaster or the  discipline, *DONT STUDY IT !!" 




*


----------



## Drac

dancingalone said:


> but it would be nice for a representative of CHKD on these boards to state so unequivocally.


 
Yes, having a representative would be nice here would be nice. Unfortunately, there isnt one. Which is why a refer questions about the orgins of CHKD to HQ and GM Pellegrini or Master David Rivas..



Disco said:


> "I will however quote Drac here: "My attitude has always been that if you dont like the Grandmaster or the discipline, *DONT STUDY IT !!" *


 
Thanks Disco.I cannot put it any plainer..




			
				Daniel Sullivan said:
			
		

> Given that the DVDs are not all that expensive, I am seriously considering ordering the vol. 1 DVD (yellow & orange belt) just to see it for myself. If I really like what I see, I may order the next volume.


 
If you check out e-Bay you may be able to find the whole collection cheaper.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Disco said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Prior threads that I have seen *over the past year* seem to have about a  page worth of pseudo discussion followed by seven pages of trolling.   This is a fairly lengthy discussion minus the trolls, which I feel  differentiates it quite a bit from previous threads.  _
> 
> There may be older threads that did not involve trolling, but I had  specific questions and I wanted to set a specific tone, so I felt that a  fresh start was in order.
> 
> 
> 
> The only problem with attempting to look for a "fresh start" is that anyone from those previous years and threads (look at 2001/2002/2003 time frame), who had supposedly actual knowledge of the whys and where fores on this subject are no longer here to offer rebuttals or opposing viewpoints.
Click to expand...

That is the nature of internet forums: people come and go.  Just as some of those people may be gone, people who were not on this board to offer opinions at that time are here now.  

Also, this was split off from another thread, as stated in the OP.



Disco said:


> A few of those referenced people were high ranking Hapkido instructors, so trolls were not the issue. As Hollywood 1340 stated "dig deeper".


Since my trolling comment was in reference to threads that have occurred over the past year or so, this would not apply the discussions of which you speak.  I am sure that Dancing, Drac and Hollywood know the threads of which I speak and can probably guess of whom I speak with regards to trolling comments.  Also, I find that one's rank in a martial art seemingly has no bearing on whether or not they will troll on the internet.  

As for digging deeper, I'm not sure how much deeper you expect me to dig, short of taking the plunge and actually studying the system.  I called DSI at the behest of some of the posters here and was contacted back by GMP directly.  I have stated that I am considering purchasing vol. 1 of the DVD series to see it for myself.  I have gone on Youtube searched out CHKD vids to see for myself. 

Starting this thread was part of digging deeper as well.  To be honest, the only reason that I post on MT is to learn more about martial arts from people who either know more than myself or who know things different from that which I know.   I will take your suggestion and look at some of the older threads.  



Disco said:


> As one can plainly see, the only contributions that have been forthcoming are from those who are directly involved with CHKD. If your wondering why I'm even offering to post on this subject, it's because I'm attempting to assist you with your questions and not be directly involved in something that has no real finality to it. I will however quote Drac here: "My attitude has always been that if you dont like the Grandmaster or the  discipline, *DONT STUDY IT !!"*


I am not sure where this response is coming from.  

Firstly, your participation is certainly appreciated.  

Secondly, I absolutely agree: if one does not like the GM or the system, then no, they should not study it.  

That, however, is not the dynamic here.  I have no dislike for GMP.  After our phone conversation, my opinion of him went from a friendly neutral to solidly positive.  Nor do I have any negative comments regarding what I have personally seen of the system, which admittedly is not all that much.  

I am attempting to dig deeper and to make headway into understanding the system to a greater degree, thus I asked some specific questions:



Daniel Sullivan said:


> What is the substantive differences between Combat Hapkido and  traditional hapkido in general?
> 
> How much 'hapkido' is there in Combat Hapkido?
> 
> Exactly what was changed and what was added from other arts?
> 
> I am interested in what people have to say about the system and its  content, not specifically about GMP.
> 
> Is the distance learning changed substantially, or at all, from the   system as taught in person?
> 
> I understand that the organization allows for video grading.  Firstly,  is this true?  Secondly, how strict are the guidelines for such a test?   Thirdly, is there any rank that must be tested for in person?



If you have insight into any of them, it would be appreciated.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

> If you check out e-Bay you may be able to find the whole collection  cheaper.


Yeah, that's the avenue my friend took when he bought the CHKD disks we own.  I gotta say, I have my doubts about whether we got authentic DSI disks or whether we just got pirated copies.  Next time we buy some CHKD material, we'll order directly from Mr. Pelligrini's organization to make sure he receives some financial recompense for his work.


----------



## dancingalone

> Originally Posted by *Disco*
> 
> 
> _A few of those referenced people  were high ranking Hapkido instructors, so trolls were not the issue. As  Hollywood 1340 stated "dig deeper"._
> Since my trolling comment was in reference to threads that have  occurred over the past year or so, this would not apply the discussions  of which you speak.  I am sure that Dancing, Drac and Hollywood know the  threads of which I speak and can probably guess of whom I speak with  regards to trolling comments.



From my experience, some of the worst CHKD detractors are seasoned hapkido instructors, undoubtedly holding high dan ranks.  It's obvious from the knowledge they sometimes show, even if they like to bash and troll CHKD.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> Yes, having a representative would be nice here would be nice. Unfortunately, there isnt one. Which is why a refer questions about the orgins of CHKD to HQ and GM Pellegrini or Master David Rivas.


 
 I suppose that it depends on how you define 'representative.'  While there may be no high ranking members of GMP's organization, I consider anyone who studies a system to be a representative of it if they are participating in a discussion.  I consider myself a representative of my HKD system and org, even if I'm not a high dan.



Drac said:


> If you check out e-Bay you may be able to find the whole collection cheaper.


Appreciated.  

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> From my experience, some of the worst *CHKD detractors are seasoned hapkido instructors, undoubtedly holding high dan ranks.*  It's obvious from the knowledge they sometimes show, even if they like to bash and troll CHKD.


Something that has raised some eyebrows on my part, but having been on MT for a couple of years, it is pretty evident.

As I said to Drac, practitioners from any organization who participate in discussions are representatives of their organization.  Poor conduct on their part does, however unintentionally, reflect poorly on their organization.  Whether or not they like or or choose to admit it.

People often have little clue how much they can affect how others view the organization with whom they are associated.  F

or the record, since we're talking CHKD, the online behavior of CHKD folks in the discussions of which I have been a part has all been above board.  Lots of excellent HKD folks as well. 

Daniel


----------



## Drac

dancingalone said:


> From my experience, some of the worst CHKD detractors are seasoned hapkido instructors, undoubtedly holding high dan ranks. It's obvious from the knowledge they sometimes show, even if they like to bash and troll CHKD.


 
And there were some here that broke away from CHKD after getting their Dan rank and proceeded to start their own system..We have had run ins with them here and face-to-face..


----------



## Drac

dancingalone said:


> Yeah, that's the avenue my friend took when he bought the CHKD disks we own. I gotta say, I have my doubts about whether we got authentic DSI disks or whether we just got pirated copies. Next time we buy some CHKD material, we'll order directly from Mr. Pelligrini's organization to make sure he receives some financial recompense for his work.


 
I was unaware of pirated copies..Yes, it is far better to order from directly from DSI..


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Drac said:


> And there were some here that broke away from CHKD after getting their Dan rank and proceeded to start their own system..We have had run ins with them here and face-to-face..


Always a problem in any system.  

I figured that my questions were specific enough to deter the sour grapes anecdotes that have appeared in other threads.  So far, I guess that I figured correctly, as none have appeared here.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

terrylamar said:


> Combat Hapkido has taken a complete Tradidional Hapkido System and *parred down the 5,000(?) techniques* to a fewer, more applicable techniques to the modern world.  It also has, in some instances, gone outside of Hapkido and included effective techniques


Terry, my apologies at not responding sooner.

I wanted to comment on the bolded part.  

As a "traditional" hapkido practitioner, I have not observed anything resembling 5000 techniques, at least not in our system.  I have friends who hold higher grades than I do in the IHF and they don't seem to find 5000 distinct techniques either.

The curriculum in our organization consists of 72 hoshisul drills, roughly ten different knife defenses, ten or so different gun defenses (vs. a pistol), a similar number of defenses against knives using a belt, a similar number of sword defenses, and a similar number of cane techniques.

There are about eight distinct kicks (front, turning, side, axe, back, hook, back hook, and a crouching sweep kick) practiced low, middle and high (except the crouch).  Most are also practiced with the leading and rear leg, performing the kicks while jumping, and performing them while spinning and jumping.

Hand techniques include various blocks and strikes, both opened and closed hand and both leading and rear hand.

We utilize mainly a somewhat crouched walking stance, but transition between that, a back stance, a long stance, and a horse stance.

There are front rolls and falls, side rolls and falls, back rolls and falls, performed from a crouch, standing, and with a jump.

Finally, there are six danjun breathing exercises.

You'd be hard pressed to break 300 techniques with our curriculum.  I have never counted them up, but I can say that we definitely are in the sub-500 category.

Daniel


----------



## Disco

Daniel, since you have an Hapkido background and we'll presume that you have at least viewed a few of the demo video's offered on utube, what is your assessment of CHKD?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Disco said:


> Daniel, since you have an Hapkido background and we'll presume that you have at least viewed a few of the demo video's offered on utube, what is your assessment of CHKD?


I'll link this one: 



, and this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXz1-3cuwWQ&feature=related.  

It is GMP's CHKD demo parts one and two.  Without evaluating GMP's performance (that has been done before in previous threads), here are my own observations.  I recognized most every individual technique (arm bars, wrist locks, etc.) and some of the particular combinations that he used were very similar to some of the ones that we use.  I had no difficulty following what he was doing.  I noticed heavier use of strikes, at least in this demo.  

There was one part in the first video that was all strikes and a block, which was the only one that stood out as not specifically hapkido.

There was another one where he did the arm bar and then wrapped the partner's arm around his left arm and took him to the ground, laying on top of the partner's arm to apply pressure, which also did not look specifically hapkido.

The weapon disarms were also familiar in terms of feel, though again, not identical to what we do.

In terms of technique content, I did not see anything that jumped out to me and screamed, "COMBAT!"  It all looked effective and it all looked, frankly, hapkido.  

There were other videos that I saw besides these, and mechanically, it all looked familiar, though it was arranged differently than our curriculum (which I would expect in any other HKD org.).  Since I am not familiar with the specific curriculum that GMP learned before starting CHKD, I have no idea how much of this is similar or identical to whatever he learned previously.

I watched a CHKD ground survival video with Master Rivas, and it looked more like BJJ, though I don't believe that any pretense is made that this has been culled from hapkido.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Disco said:


> The only problem with attempting to look for a "fresh start" is that anyone from those previous years and threads (look at 2001/2002/2003 time frame), who had supposedly actual knowledge of the whys and where fores on this subject are no longer here to offer rebuttals or opposing viewpoints.


Just to follow up to this.  I searched 'Combat Hapkido' and found nothing older than 2004, and in 20 pages, very little was actually combat hapkido.  I ended up with every thread that mentioned combat or hapkido, including a few that were definitely CHKD.  

What threads I did check out, however, came nowhere near addressing the questions that I had posed in this thread.

I don't have time at present to dig through twenty pages worth of threads, though I may do so over the next few days.

Daniel


----------



## Hollywood1340

Also look at what GMP is doing with the military, taking into account the restrictions of body armour and how fighting on the modern battlefield takes place. I'd say that's bringing some COMBAT into his system as well.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In terms of technique content, I did not see anything that jumped out to me and screamed, "COMBAT!"  It all looked effective and it all looked, frankly, hapkido.


Just to clarify, I meant "COMBAT" vs. "traditional" as opposed to the generic use of the word combat.  In my opinion, *all* legitimate hapkido systems are essentially combat arts, including CHKD (which I consider legitimate as well).

What I have seen jumps out as hapkido, excepting the ground survival, which looks more like BJJ or judo (not a bad thing).



Hollywood1340 said:


> Also look at what GMP is doing with the  military, taking into account the restrictions of body armour and how  fighting on the modern battlefield takes place. I'd say that's bringing  some COMBAT into his system as well.


I would consider that to be a more specialized form of combat, specifically battlefield combat.  Again, not a bad thing.

Now, if the addition of military application is what defines his system as 'combat' hapkido, then that is fine, but that was not the indication that he gave me on the phone.  What he described on the phone could have just as easily been called practical hapkido, i.e. hapkido without the more 'arty' aspects.  

So far, what I have seen does not stand out as 'not hapkido' or 'not traditional', though that may be due to my own usage of the word 'traditional.'  Generally, when I use the term traditional martial arts, I use it to mean fighting art as opposed to a sport (WTF TKD) or a fitness program (cardio kickboxing) or any of the other uses that martial arts have been bent to serve.

However, what I have seen thus far I have liked.

Daniel


----------



## Disco

"However, what I have seen thus far I have liked"

Well then it seems that all this thread was actually for naught. You really didn't need anyone's input after all, you've analyzed the factors you were initially looking for. 

Now one of the specifics you desired was to separate the man from the system and in reflection, that can't be done. The man is the system and it is an ongoing formulation of what he is deriving from whatever sources he finds. In order to rationalize this situation, I have attempted to go back and found some threads that assist with this assessment. Page 17 - ICHF News Thread / Page 19 - JP in BB Mag Thread / Page 20 - JP Thread........All from 2004. There were other threads I'm sure, but the vault only went back so far (2004), so any additional information is unavailable. Now I offer these as nothing more than investigative information, that has already been reviewed and addressed, but not by the current members seeking information. :asian:


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Disco said:


> "However, what I have seen thus far I have liked"
> 
> Well then it seems that all this thread was actually for naught. You really didn't need anyone's input after all, you've analyzed the factors you were initially looking for.


For naught?  Not at all! 

Seeing something that I like in CHKD does not mean that I can discuss it intelligently or that there isn't more to learn.  Also, input from this thread has been quite valuable to me and it also led me to the phone call that I posted about earlier.  Not to mention that this discussion has produced a recent thread on the topic that hasn't been trolled to the point of threadlock. 



Disco said:


> Now one of the specifics you desired was to separate the man from the system and in reflection, that can't be done. The man is the system and it is an ongoing formulation of what he is deriving from whatever sources he finds.


While I agree that the man and his system are inherently linked, one should be able to evaluate the system on its own merits.

I can discuss the merits of Shotokan without ever mentioning Funakoshi.  The same is true of CHKD.  It can be discussed without any mention of GMP.  The system has techniques.  The techniques either work or they don't.  They're either practical or they're not.  The techniques work a specific way that differentiates them non-HKD arts and have their own signature that marks them as Cheon Tu Kwan as opposed to Sin Moo, the IHF or the KHF.  These differences can be discussed.  

Most of the detractors seem to be unable to discuss the system on a technical level, most likely due to lack of substantive knowledge of the system.  Which is why they default to attacking GMP.

Unfortunately, those within the system seem to be un_willing_ to discuss the system on a technical level (I presume that they are able).  At least that is how it seems to one on the outside.      



Disco said:


> In order to rationalize this situation, I have attempted to go back and  found some threads that assist with this assessment. Page 17 - ICHF News  Thread / Page 19 - JP in BB Mag Thread / Page 20 - JP Thread........All  from 2004. There were other threads I'm sure, but the vault only went  back so far (2004), so any additional information is unavailable. Now I  offer these as nothing more than investigative information, that has  already been reviewed and addressed, but not by the current members  seeking information. :asian:


I will check out those threads.  My thanks!

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

For the benefit of all here, I have linked the threads that Disco cited:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14895&highlight=ICHF+News
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11714&highlight=John+Pelligrini
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12605&highlight=combat+hapkido

I believe that these are the ones.

I also found these:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19073&highlight=combat+hapkido
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15841&highlight=combat+hapkido
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5035&highlight=John+Pelligrini

I have not had a chance to go through all of them, but for the sake of convenience, here they are.

Daniel


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## Hapkidoman

Hapkido is a great self defense art, wether it is Traditional, CH or what ever. I have studied both, and the joint locking techniques are the same. I have found that most of the people that don't like Pellegrini, or any other person outside of Traditional Hapkido, do so because they have developed large organizations, and are making a lot of money. That is what they do, they are not "lovers" of the art, they are lovers of the Buck!!! They are "business Men" first Martial Artist second. All the rest is just fluff.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Hapkidoman said:


> Hapkido is a great self defense art, wether it is Traditional, CH or what ever. I have studied both, and the joint locking techniques are the same. I have found that most of the people that don't like Pellegrini, or any other person outside of Traditional Hapkido, do so because they have developed large organizations, and are making a lot of money. That is what they do, they are not "lovers" of the art, they are lovers of the Buck!!! They are "business Men" first Martial Artist second. All the rest is just fluff.


Sometimes, its just a matter of people being rubbed the wrong way by certain things. No matter what the quality of someone's skills, anytime someone establishes their own art or subset of an art, they will take flack no matter what.  And the more traditional the base art is, the more flack they will take.

Daniel


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## puunui

A lot of people complaint was GM Pelligrini, about his background, his rank, and all of that. But at least he is out there spreading hapkido to people who wouldn't be training in hapkido otherwise. I have had my ups and downs thinking about GM Pelligrini, but at this point, I don't really care all that much because what he does doesn't really affect me, at all. To me, Hapkido is a personal art, for the individual practitioner, and however he wants to go about it is fine. I have a different perspective of Taekwondo, which is created more around unification and standardization. There is no standardization in Hapkido. 

Another way to look at it is that Taekwondo came from several different schools and ended up unifying into one. Hapkido comes from one school, and ended up spreading to all sorts of different branches and schools. It is the nature of both to be what they are. 

I understand that there are those who wish Hapkido like freedom for Taekwondo practitioners, and others who wish Taekwondo like standardization for Hapkido. But to chase down either one of those contrary ideas is like swimming upstream because you are going directly against the art, the pioneers who founded the art, and the momentum of the arts themselves.


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## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> A lot of people complaint was GM Pelligrini, about his background, his rank, and all of that. But at least he is out there spreading hapkido to people who wouldn't be training in hapkido otherwise. I have had my ups and downs thinking about GM Pelligrini, but at this point, I don't really care all that much because what he does doesn't really affect me, at all. To me, Hapkido is a personal art, for the individual practitioner, and however he wants to go about it is fine. I have a different perspective of Taekwondo, which is created more around unification and standardization. There is no standardization in Hapkido.
> 
> Another way to look at it is that Taekwondo came from several different schools and ended up unifying into one. Hapkido comes from one school, and ended up spreading to all sorts of different branches and schools. It is the nature of both to be what they are.
> 
> I understand that there are those who wish Hapkido like freedom for Taekwondo practitioners, and others who wish Taekwondo like standardization for Hapkido. But to chase down either one of those contrary ideas is like swimming upstream because you are going directly against the art, the pioneers who founded the art, and the momentum of the arts themselves.


That is a fairly accurate and healthy way to look at it.

Daniel


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## Hapkidoman

Enough said, I have trained in both, and both are good, providing the instructor has been well trained, and I do not mean by way of "Videos", but with hands on instruction with someone that knows what they are doing. Weight lifters have a saying "You can not out train a bad diet". The same goes for MA you can not get good training from a bad instructor. Forget the system, and focus on the Instructor, and you will be fine.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Hapkidoman said:


> Enough said, I have trained in both, and both are good, providing the instructor has been well trained, and I do not mean by way of "Videos", but with hands on instruction with someone that knows what they are doing. Weight lifters have a saying "You can not out train a bad diet". The same goes for MA you can not get good training from a bad instructor. Forget the system, and focus on the Instructor, and you will be fine.


Cannot disagree with that!  Ultimately, it is the instructor that makes or breaks it.

Daniel


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## puunui

Hapkidoman said:


> I have found that most of the people that don't like Pellegrini, or any other person outside of Traditional Hapkido, do so because they have developed large organizations, and are making a lot of money.




I don't know if that is true. Ray Terry used to hate on GM Pellegrini all the time and he didn't have a large Hapkido organization; he didn't even have a hapkido school, and never did. The funny thing is, GM Pellegrini started Hapkido before Ray Terry, had more actual training and taught more students that Ray Terry ever did, with his single weekend seminar and bought certificates.


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## dortiz

Why are you bringing up Ray Terry. You are rude!! Have your fights on your board but don't bring that crap here.
For someone so knowledgeable and with great connections you tend to really stoop low and just turn me off when you do so.


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