# Kids and FMA training?



## Carol (Sep 1, 2006)

A fellow I work approached me tentatively and asked me about what got me in to Martial Arts.  I touched on a few reasons why...better mental fitness, better physical fitness, the motivation of stepping through a series of belts.

He chuckled and said that he wondered if most people joined MA to bust heads.   I said the folks that I trained with have been some of the nicest, kindest folks I've ever met, and mentioned that my old school had a big family focus, with many parent-and-child pairings.

He then got really interested and said that he was interested in training himself, and that he hoped his son would have interest in it too when he gets older.  I offerered to help him with any questions that he may have, saying that I may not be able to answer them all but I may be able to send him to someone that may have an answer for him.


Recently he approached me and asked me if I had ever heard of Escrima.  I said I had heard of it and had an intrest in the Filipino arts myself.  He showed me the Wikipedia page for Escrima and said he saw someone doing Escrima somewhere and thought it looked cool.  My response was that it is cool.  

He then looked at me hesitantly and asked if I used all of those "knives and stuff" in the picture.  I described how the "knives" were really aluminum training blades and how the big silvery looking stick was padded and wrapped in duct tape, and he relaxed noticeably.    

So,  now my friend is mulling over whether or not to begin FMA training.  He seems very interested.  

He asked if FMA training was inappropriate for kids.  My answer was "It certainly is if you, as his father, think it's inappropriate."

He followed up with a question I can't answer: 

Is it typical for kids to train in the FMAs and if so...what ages do you typically see at an FMA school?


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## arnisador (Sep 1, 2006)

Tim Hartman has a lot of kids. He also has an adult class. In the kids' classes, the stick is always and only a stick, I believe. Sharp things scare people away!

Training kids in the FMA works well. We just avoid talking about the knife/blade thing for obvious reasons.


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## Perpetual White Belt (Sep 2, 2006)

At our school my instructor teaches eskrima to kids as young as 7, but only after 3 months of training and they use padded sticks because it keeps the parents eyes from bugging out too much.  The other thing he does is if the kids are playing around with the sticks inside or outside of the school the sticks are to be handed in to him for 30 days and if they need those sticks for a test that comes up within those 30 days they fail the test because they don't have the proper equipment.


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## Blindside (Sep 2, 2006)

My instructor doesn't teach kids, I think he simply doesn't want to go there.  The youngest I have ever seen in his class is 16, most participants are members of the military or police so the class probably averages around high-twenties for age.

Lamont


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## Mark Lynn (Sep 2, 2006)

GM Remy Presas used to teach his Modern Arnis program in the school system in the Philippines (Phys Ed?).  In I think the Pink Book, there are pictures that shows kids lined up in formation doing stick drills.  Remy was also taught by his grandfather around the age of six.

I agree with the others a stick is a stick and not a representation of a blade as far as kids are concerned.

However I think areas like double stick training (flow drills) could be fun for kids to learn and it would help their coordination skills.


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## Carol (Sep 6, 2006)

Thanks very much for your info everyone!


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## Wes Tasker (Sep 6, 2006)

Ms. Kaur-

May Williams teaches a kid's class that is a mixture of Pentjak Silat and Filipino Martial Arts.  She's great with kids.  Did you check out their school yet and watch a class?

-wes tasker


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## HKphooey (Sep 6, 2006)

The irony of this..

I think kids are more apt to swing a stick or be attacked my another kid with a stick than most adults.  

Just like any art, the key is teaching responsibility.


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## Carol (Sep 6, 2006)

Wes Tasker said:


> Ms. Kaur-
> 
> May Williams teaches a kid's class that is a mixture of Pentjak Silat and Filipino Martial Arts. She's great with kids. Did you check out their school yet and watch a class?
> 
> -wes tasker


 

Thank you so much for your input Guro Tasker.  

I don't have children.  My colleague does.  If they start thinking seriously about training then I can certainly help him and his wife explore whether there are any FMA schools near where they live.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 6, 2006)

I only train my own kids because I just do not want the responsibility and parental issues involved with teaching kids.  However, children can learn to train with sticks (arnis, escrima, etc) with absolutely no problems if taught appropriately.


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## Rocky (Sep 6, 2006)

I only teach privately now one on one, but when I had a school I never taught kids, the whole kid thing more often then not is about baby sitting, granted not all schools do this, but when I see all these, how to make a million off of the Martial Arts Magazines ,its always about the kids and the Dollars that accompany them. I personally don't have the patients, I teach my kids but I teach them my way, my 8 year old is now working with a knife, my 5 year old is still just grappling and stick.empty hand......


 I started Pekiti when I was 8 and met Remy for the first time when I was 10 or eleven and my Boxing/TSD began at 6, but it was a familly thing. You really have to be good with kids and if you are then that in itself is a true gift...

When I was 11 I was fortunate enough to be taken under the Wing of an Awesome Kenpo/TSD Guy named Larry Bilingsley he could teach anyone..... he gave me confidence that I could compete with anyone, I grew up in an all white neighborhood, Larry and his guys were African American, and I would be the only white kid at some of these clubs we went to, but Larry never treated me any different he had a way of keeping kids mezmorized, as far as My Karate days go I learned more from Larry then anyone, he treated me like I  was his own kid......and I think that is the key to teaching kids, you gotta be comfortable around them if you are not I think they can sense it, and it makes it harder on them....


I have a lot of respect for those who can teach kids, and teach them right....its not an easy undertaking!!!


Rocky


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## Stan (Sep 6, 2006)

This is an interesting question to consider especially for someone who wants to open a school where a FMA is the primary or only art.  It seems in the first or second generation of Filipino Martial Artists in America, most had advanced rank in another art before they started, and could fall back on a more traditional art when designing a kids program.  Now there are more and more people who are getting straight to FMA without any Karate or Tae Kwon Do experience.  I'd love to see more schools that only teach Filipino Martial Arts, yet without some special focus (tactical studies, etc.) it is very hard for a full time school to make it without a kids program.

I agree that kids are more likely to face an impact weapon than adults.  I also strongly reject the idea that weapons are only for advanced students.  In programs where weapons are treated as such, they often aren't taken seriously and are often poorly integrated into the empty hand art.  To be more blunt, I don't consider it self defense if it excludes weapons.  I think more kids should be exposed to good FMA programs from an early age.


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## Carol (Sep 6, 2006)

Rocky said:


> I only teach privately now one on one, but when I had a school I never taught kids, the whole kid thing more often then not is about baby sitting, granted not all schools do this, but when I see all these, how to make a million off of the Martial Arts Magazines ,its always about the kids and the Dollars that accompany them. I personally don't have the patients, I teach my kids but I teach them my way, my 8 year old is now working with a knife, my 5 year old is still just grappling and stick.empty hand......
> 
> 
> I started Pekiti when I was 8 and met Remy for the first time when I was 10 or eleven and my Boxing/TSD began at 6, but it was a familly thing. You really have to be good with kids and if you are then that in itself is a true gift...
> ...


 

Interesting points Rocky!  

To that end, I can understand where some kids programs are not necessarily simpatico with the a traditional MA point of view.  At the same time, I compare the kids that horse around and joke at the mall with the kids that horse around and joke after Kenpo (my other art) class and I can't help but notice the difference in language choice, attitude, demeanor, appearance, and many other attributes.  If I did have kids of my own, I'd rather see them in an MA program...even if it was part-MA part-gym class...than a lot of the alternatives that kids are doing after school.

Admittedly, the subject makes me a little torn.  As a Kenpoist, I've been in schools that tone down their techniques for their children's class...something that I personally don't have a problem with.  BUT...what does bother me is that when these simplified techs creep their way up in to the adult curriculum, and becomes the de facto standard for the way the school teaches techniques.   Personally I've been on the receiving end of those types of modifications and...it was a harsh wakeup call.  I'd hate to see the same dilution happen in the FMAs, especially where the real life applications (knives, machetes, clubs, etc.) are far more life-threatening than empty handed techs are. 

I don't know if that makes sense or not.  

Thanks again for your input.  I'm learning more and more :asian:


Carol


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## thekuntawman (Sep 6, 2006)

this is just my opinion, but if you modify the FMA to teach to children, then you are no longer doing real FMA. it is better to call it something else, or award "kid's rank" or even call it "kids FMA". because kiddy arnisadors grow up into grown arnisadors and if you gave them the black belt, then they still teach "kiddy arnis" but to adults. this is not cute, and its no longer kiddy arnis, but "tae" arnis. we already have enough of that around no need to make more. 

i think its good, to add some arnis to a karate program so you can plant a seed for interest when he gets older. i dont like to see watered down FMA because we already have so much of it. it would be best to make sure the students of a kids program understand that, this is not pure art, but kids art.

me, i do not teach FMA to kids, i dont think its good for them. until they get older, and i know they will be around long enough for me to develop them as a teacher.


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## Andy Moynihan (Sep 6, 2006)

This is why I would never make it as a full time martial arts school owner even if I wanted to be because I don't believe MA teachers should even be TALKING to students till theyre 18, but the reality nowadays is that kids classes are what it takes to be a successful full time school owner now, and that's the worse for the arts IMO *shrug*


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## Rocky (Sep 7, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> Interesting points Rocky!
> 
> To that end, I can understand where some kids programs are not necessarily simpatico with the a traditional MA point of view. At the same time, I compare the kids that horse around and joke at the mall with the kids that horse around and joke after Kenpo (my other art) class and I can't help but notice the difference in language choice, attitude, demeanor, appearance, and many other attributes. If I did have kids of my own, I'd rather see them in an MA program...even if it was part-MA part-gym class...than a lot of the alternatives that kids are doing after school.
> 
> ...


 

Hi Carol,


I think MA training for kids is Great, better then probabbly most anything out there...... I just think it takes a special person to be a good instructor for kids. Its nice when you see someone who really cares about the kids and not tjust the dollars......Like Clint Eastwoods say's  " Mans got to know his Limitaions" and mine unfortunately are kids, since having them I have gott'n much better and some day may teach, but not know....and for those that do and do it right.....keep up the good work!!!



Rocky


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## Carol (Sep 7, 2006)

Stan said:


> This is an interesting question to consider especially for someone who wants to open a school where a FMA is the primary or only art. It seems in the first or second generation of Filipino Martial Artists in America, most had advanced rank in another art before they started, and could fall back on a more traditional art when designing a kids program. Now there are more and more people who are getting straight to FMA without any Karate or Tae Kwon Do experience. I'd love to see more schools that only teach Filipino Martial Arts, yet without some special focus (tactical studies, etc.) it is very hard for a full time school to make it without a kids program.
> 
> I agree that kids are more likely to face an impact weapon than adults. I also strongly reject the idea that weapons are only for advanced students. In programs where weapons are treated as such, they often aren't taken seriously and are often poorly integrated into the empty hand art. To be more blunt, I don't consider it self defense if it excludes weapons. I think more kids should be exposed to good FMA programs from an early age.


 


Stan said:


> I agree that kids are more likely to face an impact weapon than adults. I also strongly reject the idea that weapons are only for advanced students. In programs where weapons are treated as such, they often aren't taken seriously and are often poorly integrated into the empty hand art. To be more blunt, I don't consider it self defense if it excludes weapons. I think more kids should be exposed to good FMA programs from an early age.


 
Stan I am really glad you posted that because you are touching upon something where...I didn't know if I was all alone in thinking it or what.

I agree with you about rejecting the idea that weapons are only for advanced students...which is a pivotal reason for me starting FMA training now even though I am nowhere near accomplished in my primary art.   

My primary art does not teach weapons until at or near first black.  I understand why that's done and I don't particularly want to change the art that I train in.   Instead I prefer to seek out training that's aligned with my intrests, and embrace it fully...and I can see where, if weapons training is important to the student, it is valuable to integrate when beginning one's training.

Thank you SO much for sharing your thoughts on this :asian:


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## Stan (Sep 7, 2006)

Carol,
I'm not an expert on other cultures, but in America, at least, it seems we have a culture that devalues weapons other than firearms.  Either a fight is a fist fight or a gun fight.  Using other weapons is considered foolish if it is a gun fight and dastardly if it is a fist fight.  

I also hear people say that they don't train againist weapons because "You can't train for everything".  They pose a straw man arguement, asking if you train against a knife or club, why not train against an RPG or a tank.  

The use and defense against hand-held, non-projectile weapons is a large part of most martial traditions.  As Jim Keating likes to point out, homo sapiens is distinguished by our use of tools, and weapons are tools for self-defense.  In what other endeavor do we so fetishize the _non-use_ of tools?

Of course, weapons are a big responsibility, and one that a child's maturity is not necessarily up to.  I believe however that a child trained in the use of weapons will have more respect for them than one who is taught that they are merely evil.  

I also believe that the teaching of weapons, especially scenarios involving unequal weapons, emphasizes self-defense rather than "fighting".  One of the problems I have with the attitudes of UFC fans is that they always assume the reason one will be in an altercation is some masculine "honor" contest.  They're always throwing around "punk-a**" this and "owned" that.  We have to teach kids the difference between self-defense and fighting, and how never to fight to "win".  I believe the gravity that weapons-based self-defense brings to training is excellent for this.

I also have a different view than many as to what the value of teaching a child martial arts is.  I view it as a necessary part of training a child to be an adult.  Being an adult involves the ability and willingness to defend life, and to take life when absolutely necessary.  Anything else is to be a slave, which the ancients described as an adult too child-like in abilities to ever be able to govern themselves.  Giving colored belts for getting good grades in school is ok, but it isn't training martial arts.  Discipline and fitness are good by-products of good training, but even for children, let us not forget the Martial in Martial Arts.

Stan


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## MJS (Sep 7, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> A fellow I work approached me tentatively and asked me about what got me in to Martial Arts. I touched on a few reasons why...better mental fitness, better physical fitness, the motivation of stepping through a series of belts.
> 
> He chuckled and said that he wondered if most people joined MA to bust heads. I said the folks that I trained with have been some of the nicest, kindest folks I've ever met, and mentioned that my old school had a big family focus, with many parent-and-child pairings.
> 
> ...


 

My instructor teaches a kids class.  He modifies the material, focusing more on the material that would most likely apply for a child.  The focus of the class is usually punching, kicking and blocking fundamentals, escapes from some basic grabs, as well as some of the basic stick work.  

Mike


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## R. Derderian (Sep 19, 2006)

I was always very much against children learning FMA. However, a few years back I was teaching a seminar in Chicago and the host showed me some sinawali patterns with his 6 year old daughter. Gotta tell ya, the kids was pretty good! She had no idea as to what the heck the moves represented, but she was having fun. (if this sparks a life long study of FMA, how could it be bad?) When I came back I started to put a few simple single stick forms into our kids curriculum. Nothing difficult. 
I don't think kids should be training in any kind of bladed weaponry until they are older. Moms would surely freak if little Sally was slashing away with a knife in class. I see some schools are doing this knife throwing for kids program. I forget what the actual program is called. Not sure if this is the best thing for children. 
What I do hate, however, is when I see a karate demo at the mall or whatever and two kids will come out and do Heaven 6 and it looks horrible. Their teacher learned it at a seminar (that's cool), thought it would spice up their demo (okaaaay) but the kids touch the sticks twice a year (not cool) and when they do it at the demo it makes me cringe. 
While we don't teach Kali to our kids, I think it is a good thing. What better way to improve coodination? Yes, it should be watered down, like many arts are for youths. 
Good topic. 
Raffi Derderian


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## arnisador (Sep 19, 2006)

The kids do like sinawali, and everyone enjoys swinging a stick! Stick to the stick and it all works out fine.


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## Guro Harold (Sep 19, 2006)

My 3 1/2 year old daugther loves working with her padded kali sticks.

She is quite accurate with the up and down striking style. I remember when she was six months. I gave her an on paper towel roll and showed her redonda. She immediately hit me squarely on the head. That's my girl!


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