# No Outside Game??? Huh???



## wingchun100 (Jun 27, 2014)

I was watching an interview with Dan Inosanto where he said without wing chun, there would have been no JKD. So he sings praises of it at first, but then switches gears and says wing chun has no "outside game." What is he talking about??? I don't know how much of wing chun he has even seen (given that Bruce Lee himself never even finished the system), but he isn't talking about the style as *I* know it. How can a guy who has been in martial arts for this long not realize some basic facts? I'm talking about simple truths like:

*a kicker will train to keep his opponent at kicking range
*a boxer would train to keep someone at punching range
*a grappler will train to get close enough to grapple

Therefore, wouldn't it be a given that wing chun practitioners train to close the gap and enter the trapping range?

I don't know. To me that came off as an epic fail on Inosanto's part. Just my opinion.


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## geezer (Jun 27, 2014)

I dunno. Consider where Danny is coming from. He's very eclectic. And if you look his background in FMA for example, there's basically three ranges: Largo, Medio, and Corto. Many great FMA systems specialize in one range over the others. That's not a criticism, just a statement of fact.

I believe the same is true for WC. We are best at close range striking. Sure we have kicks but they are generally short range as far as kicks go. Yes, we also have _some_ good clinching, grapples and throws, ...even a bit of ground work these days. But when compared to the sophistication of our close-range striking, it's clear that that other stuff is not our specialty. My _outside game_ is totally designed to_ get inside_ ...not to hang around and sharp-shoot from far away.  So to say that we don't have have an "outside" or "largo" game seems fair enough to me.

Perhaps your WC is different?


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## wingchun100 (Jun 27, 2014)

geezer said:


> I dunno. Consider where Danny is coming from. He's very eclectic. And if you look his background in FMA for example, there's basically three ranges: Largo, Medio, and Corto. Many great FMA systems specialize in one range over the others. That's not a criticism, just a statement of fact.
> 
> I believe the same is true for WC. We are best at close range striking. Sure we have kicks but they are generally short range as far as kicks go. Yes, we also have _some_ good clinching, grapples and throws, ...even a bit of ground work these days. But when compared to the sophistication of our close-range striking, it's clear that that other stuff is not our specialty. My _outside game_ is totally designed to_ get inside_ ...not to hang around and sharp-shoot from far away.  So to say that we don't have have an "outside" or "largo" game seems fair enough to me.
> 
> Perhaps your WC is different?



It's not different, but I consider the act of bridging the gap as part of outside game...because at one point you aren't near your opponent, and the next you are. Maybe that is just the way I interpret things.


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## geezer (Jun 27, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> It's not different, but I consider the act of bridging the gap as part of outside game...because at one point you aren't near your opponent, and the next you are. Maybe that is just the way I interpret things.



I didn't see the interview of course, but I suspect Danny was referencing long range fighting. Or perhaps you are right. The JKD guys have always had a problem with what they_ perceive_ as WC's lack of long range mobility ever since Bruce Lee fought Jack Man Wong. If that's the case, I'd agree with you and say that _they have a misperception._

Now here's_ my_ perception of the WC/VT/WT outside or long range game:

http://www.wingtsunmessina.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Leung-Ting-Long-pole-technique.jpg


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## wingchun100 (Jun 27, 2014)

geezer said:


> I didn't see the interview of course, but I suspect Danny was referencing long range fighting. Or perhaps you are right. The JKD guys have always had a problem with what they_ perceive_ as WC's lack of long range mobility ever since Bruce Lee fought Jack Man Wong. If that's the case, I'd agree with you and say that _they have a misperception._
> 
> Now here's_ my_ perception of the WC/VT/WT outside or long range game:
> 
> http://www.wingtsunmessina.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Leung-Ting-Long-pole-technique.jpg



Great picture!

And yes, if Dan meant we don't have much in the way of long range attacks, I would agree. Aside from the pole form it is all close-range. However, we do train to get into our range. So it's not like fighting a tae kwon do practitioner would have us completely stymied.


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## ST1Doppelganger (Jun 27, 2014)

Dan is kind of correct WC outside game is lacking and what they do have is used to bridge the gap so they can get inside where they prefer to be and are effective at what they do.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 27, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> Dan is kind of correct WC outside game is lacking and what they do have is used to bridge the gap so they can get inside where they prefer to be and are effective at what they do.



Well I certainly agree with the lack of long range attacks, but it's not like we don't learn how to bridge the gap to make up for that.


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## drop bear (Jun 27, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> Well I certainly agree with the lack of long range attacks, but it's not like we don't learn how to bridge the gap to make up for that.



An outside game is someone who works to nullify the gap bridging to keep the fight at a distance.

You really should have both.


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## mook jong man (Jun 27, 2014)

I would say that Dan Inosanto has never witnessed my late Sifu Jim Fung bridge a gap of over three metres with a charging knee and stop with his fist an inch from someones face like I have.
It is no exaggeration when I say that he covered that distance with such explosiveness and speed that it looked like he had been teleported.

The footwork to bridge large gaps is mostly contained in  the butterfly knife form .
Think about , if you are using the butterfly knives against a weapon with superior striking range such as the long pole , then you have to be able deflect the pole and then move in damn quickly and strike the pole wielder.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 27, 2014)

I'm pretty certain Guru Dan was talking about actually fighting at long range, not about having a plan to close the gap. He knows plenty of high-level Wing Chun practitioners.


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## mook jong man (Jun 27, 2014)

drop bear said:


> An outside game is someone who works to nullify the gap bridging to keep the fight at a distance.
> 
> You really should have both.



Wing Chun is a specialist system why do we have to have both ?  We specialise at close range where most real world violence tends to occur.

It's a bit like having a sniper rifle and expecting it also to be useful for close quarters work in going room to room clearing out houses.

No one says that boxers should be able to do a 540 degree tornado kick do they?


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## Blindside (Jun 27, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm pretty certain Guru Dan was talking about actually fighting at long range, not about having a plan to close the gap. He knows plenty of high-level Wing Chun practitioners.



If your "outside game" is to close the gap to an close range game, it isn't an "outside game."  In basketball the "outside game" usually refers to the long distance shooting capaiblity of a player or team.  You can't say Team X has a really good "outside game" because their guys are good at splitting the defenders and penetrating the middle of the court.


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## Cephalopod (Jun 27, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> Dan is kind of correct WC outside game is lacking and what they do have is used to bridge the gap so they can get inside where they prefer to be and are effective at what they do.



Does Dan actually view this as a critical weakness or is it just an observation?

It is true that if, for some reason, I was up against an opponent that I really needed to stay away from, say a 6'9" rabid zombie covered with burning napalm, I would feel disadvantaged because I have not trained my drop kicks to fluency.

Against most other opponents I am quite comfortable moving into a closer range where my skills are more trained.


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## Cephalopod (Jun 27, 2014)

Damn, I'm really starting to stress about the burning zombie.
WTF would I do?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 27, 2014)

Cephalopod said:


> Damn, I'm really starting to stress about the burning zombie.
> WTF would I do?



Maybe you should start practicing your butterfly knife form using chainsaws.


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## geezer (Jun 27, 2014)

Cephalopod said:


> Damn, I'm really starting to stress about the burning zombie.
> WTF would I do?



Hey _Ceph_, don't sweat the Zs.

Anybody knows that setting a zombie on fire is only effective at truly long range, as for example by throwing molotov cocktails or burning oil from a high place. At hand to hand range its suicide. By the time they burn up they are all over you. If you don't burn to death first, they'll still eat your brains, or at least infect you with bites. 

The best TCMA weapon for fighting zombies is a cutting pole-arm like a kwan-dao. 
http://www.shopbushido.com/media/ca...b8d27136e95/K/w/Kwan_Dao_Dragon_Head_91in.jpg
If you can't behead them, you can at least cut off a leg so that they can't chase you easily.

Bart Cham Dao put you way too close and at risk for bites. If that's the best you've got, at least wear motorcycle leathers.

The long pole can work if there aren't too many of 'em and you have really great power generation ...sufficient to crush their skulls, otherwise a simple axe-handle of good ol' American Hickory will serve you better.

Now, seriously, I too need to return to the _Wingchunosphere_.


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## Cephalopod (Jun 27, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Maybe you should start practicing your butterfly knife form using chainsaws.



Nice, but splattering napalm would get in my eyes.


There is no answer.


Crap.


Wait, what was this thread about?


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## mook jong man (Jun 27, 2014)

Cephalopod said:


> Nice, but splattering napalm would get in my eyes.
> 
> 
> There is no answer.
> ...



You'd probably need Darryl Dixon.


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## Cephalopod (Jun 27, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> You'd probably need Darryl Dixon.



Fortunately, this crafty bugger came up the real answer. He must be Darryl's kin:
How to Make a Survival Shotgun | The Art of Manliness
Sorry Geezer, TCMA just doesn't cut it. I guess they were right. Combat _has_ evolved.


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## drop bear (Jun 28, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> Wing Chun is a specialist system why do we have to have both ?  We specialise at close range where most real world violence tends to occur.
> 
> It's a bit like having a sniper rifle and expecting it also to be useful for close quarters work in going room to room clearing out houses.
> 
> No one says that boxers should be able to do a 540 degree tornado kick do they?




People who do hybrid versions of boxing probably do. It tends to be a thing.


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## punisher73 (Jun 28, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> It's not different, but I consider the act of bridging the gap as part of outside game...because at one point you aren't near your opponent, and the next you are. Maybe that is just the way I interpret things.



I would say that it is your interpretation.  WC closes the gap to get in close, it does not really have tools to stay on the outside kicking range to implement a good offense if you CAN'T close the gap.


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## blindsage (Jun 28, 2014)

A good place to ask this question would be in the JKD section.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2014)

Jkd does teach moving in and the out fast. Can't remember what the step is called but it is trained as part of jkd. Move in strike and then move back quick to get out of range. It is my understanding that wing chun likes to stay close.

With that said, the guy I trained jkd with likedwing chun, he just thought the stance was to upright making the head an easier target.


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## mook jong man (Jun 28, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Jkd does teach moving in and the out fast. Can't remember what the step is called but it is trained as part of jkd. Move in strike and then move back quick to get out of range. It is my understanding that wing chun likes to stay close.
> 
> With that said, the guy I trained jkd with likedwing chun, *he just thought the stance was to upright making the head an easier target*.



The straight spine is what enables it to generate massive amounts of power at close range , besides that , the hands protect the head.
He is judging Wing Chun through the lens of a western boxing type mentality , which is a flawed way of thinking.

Apart from the fact that they both use the hands , Wing Chun generates force in a totally different manner.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> The straight spine is what enables it to generate massive amounts of power at close range , besides that , the hands protect the head.
> He is judging Wing Chun through the lens of a western boxing type mentality , which is a flawed way of thinking.
> 
> Apart from the fact that they both use the hands , Wing Chun generates force in a totally different manner.



I'm not disagreeing with you about Wing Chun (I did disagree with him), but I am disagreeing with you about how he judged it, since I knew him and you didn't. He trained Wing Chun (but I don't know how much) then went to JKD (Poteet) and followed that with Jun Fan (Davis). He liked Wing Chun, just did not like the stance.

But none of that was the point of my previous post. The point was about the way JKD dealt with distance and Wing Chun liked to stay close.


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## geezer (Jun 29, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> ...But none of that was the point of my previous post. The point was about the way JKD dealt with distance and Wing Chun liked to stay close.




Xue, your point squares pretty well with the Wing Chun I've trained. When the opportunity is presented we close and keep the pressure on. In fact we _have no retreating steps!_

We do have "yielding steps" that create distance between us and our opponents, but by _yielding _we mean to "compress like a spring" and give way before pressure, not to step back of our own accord. Our footwork like our hand techniques is always characterized by forward pressure directed at our opponent's center.


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## Vajramusti (Jun 29, 2014)

geezer said:


> Could not get the url on this machine (someone else's pc). But if you google
> Augustine Fong fighting demo 1979 and watch Fong sifu's  part of the fight demo you will see plenty of closing in from a distance.
> 
> Of course it's a demo but can get a sense of my point.
> ...


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## geezer (Jun 29, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> Wing chun is not a set of techniques- it's way of shaping and controlling motion.



Well put. I'm going to share this with my class tomorrow night.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 29, 2014)

drop bear said:


> An outside game is someone who works to nullify the gap bridging to keep the fight at a distance.
> 
> You really should have both.


Agree, if your opponent uses 

- "fire" strategy (unpredictable footwork) such as boxer's footwork that move like butterfly, or
- "wood" strategy (long range attack) such as jab, haymaker, roundhouse kick, side kick, hook kick, spin hook kick, ..., 

after your opponent throws one attack, he keeps distance, avoids arm contact, when you try to close the distance, he moves back, you will be put into a disadvantage situation.


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## mook jong man (Jun 30, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree, if your opponent uses
> 
> - "fire" strategy (unpredictable footwork) such as boxer's footwork that move like butterfly, or
> - "wood" strategy (long range attack) such as jab, haymaker, roundhouse kick, side kick, hook kick, spin hook kick, ...,
> ...



Yeah , try doing all that in a crowded bar , concert venue , in between parked cars etc , on public transport etc.
You know , places where real world violence tends to happen.

Keep trying to dance around and stay at a distance and eventually you are going to back into an object , be it a wall , chairs , an innocent onlooker , a curb etc.
The ability to generate power in very close without any drawing back , having the skill and reflex to defend at close range where most others cannot will always be a valuable skill to have.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 30, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> Yeah , try doing all that in a crowded bar , concert venue , in between parked cars etc , on public transport etc.
> You know , places where real world violence tends to happen.
> 
> Keep trying to dance around and stay at a distance and eventually you are going to back into an object , be it a wall , chairs , an innocent onlooker , a curb etc.
> The ability to generate power in very close without any drawing back , having the skill and reflex to defend at close range where most others cannot will always be a valuable skill to have.


Agree with what you have said. But will it be better to be able to do both?


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## mook jong man (Jun 30, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree with what you have said. But will it be better to be able to do both?



No , because then you have to devote precious training time to both.
Which takes away from concentrating on your core specialty , which in our case is close range.

Being a specialist is quite common in other walks of life.
No one says to the dentist that he should be able to operate on brains as well.
No one says to Tae Kwon Do people that they should have a working knowledge of chi sau.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 30, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> I was watching an interview with Dan Inosanto where he said without wing chun, there would have been no JKD. So he sings praises of it at first, but then switches gears and says wing chun has no "outside game." What is he talking about??? I don't know how much of wing chun he has even seen (given that Bruce Lee himself never even finished the system), but he isn't talking about the style as *I* know it. How can a guy who has been in martial arts for this long not realize some basic facts? I'm talking about simple truths like:
> 
> *a kicker will train to keep his opponent at kicking range
> *a boxer would train to keep someone at punching range
> ...


When Bruce Lee said other arts were too stylized, I think he was including Wing Chun, and why not?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 30, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> No , because then you have to devote precious training time to both.
> Which takes away from concentrating on your core specialty , which in our case is close range.
> 
> Being a specialist is quite common in other walks of life.
> ...



I can see that you don't like the idea of "cross training".


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## mook jong man (Jun 30, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I can see that you don't like the idea of "cross training".



I have cross trained quite a lot actually , grappling , stick fighting , knife fighting , even a bit of Krav Maga.

But at some point you realize there are only so many hours in the day.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 30, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> When Bruce Lee said other arts were too stylized, I think he was including Wing Chun, and why not?



Keep in mind Bruce did not learn all of wing chun, nor did he learn all of ANY other style out there. What I have noticed across multiple styles is that people tend to make it their own after a while whereas at first it is sort of like a factory assembly line. LOL Same goes for Bruce too. I know some high level wing chun people who view JKD simply as Bruce's interpretation of WC.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 30, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> Keep in mind Bruce did not learn all of wing chun, nor did he learn all of ANY other style out there. What I have noticed across multiple styles is that people tend to make it their own after a while whereas at first it is sort of like a factory assembly line. LOL Same goes for Bruce too. I know some high level wing chun people who view JKD simply as Bruce's interpretation of WC.


As it should be.  He was a visionary, and brought many people to the arts, but he was by no means original.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 30, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> As it should be.  He was a visionary, and brought many people to the arts, but he was by no means original.



Well, his philosophies may not have been original (a lot of them are derived from Taoism and Buddhism), but I never heard of anyone before him who expressed the idea of freeing yourself from styles. I think every high-level martial artist does this, whether your chosen art is wing chun, TKD, karate, or whatever.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 30, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> Keep in mind Bruce did not learn all of wing chun, nor did he learn all of ANY other style out there. What I have noticed across multiple styles is that people tend to make it their own after a while whereas at first it is sort of like a factory assembly line. LOL Same goes for Bruce too. I know some high level wing chun people who view JKD simply as Bruce's interpretation of WC.



Depending on who you talk to...or believe.... Jun Fan Gong Fu was what Bruce first started teaching and he latter changed that by adding a lot ot it and came up with Jeet Kune Do.

The short time I trained JKD, I did little JKD and a lot of Jun Fan. (the guy that was the teacher fully believe you needed a base in Wing Chun and/or Jun Fan before going onto his JKD). From that all to short exposure to JF I labeled it "Wing Chun on Steroids" because it had a mot of similarities but it seemed much more aggressive. The JKD stuff has not as much in common with Wing Chun as JF but you could still see the Wing Chun coming through in places


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## wingchun100 (Jun 30, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Depending on who you talk to...or believe.... Jun Fan Gong Fu was what Bruce first started teaching and he latter changed that by adding a lot ot it and came up with Jeet Kune Do.
> 
> The short time I trained JKD, I did little JKD and a lot of Jun Fan. (the guy that was the teacher fully believe you needed a base in Wing Chun and/or Jun Fan before going onto his JKD). From that all to short exposure to JF I labeled it "Wing Chun on Steroids" because it had a mot of similarities but it seemed much more aggressive. The JKD stuff has not as much in common with Wing Chun as JF but you could still see the Wing Chun coming through in places



Absolutely. Center line theory, knuckles vertical instead of horizontal during the punch, maximum impact with minimal effort, and of course the inclusion of chi sao. And that is all I could think of off the top of my head.


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## Cephalopod (Jun 30, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I can see that you don't like the idea of "cross training".



Personally: 

No matter what range my opponent is at, I want my instinct to always be the same, to bring me to a range where _I_ am the most effective. If he is trying to keep me at distance, I will try to close that gap asap. I am more trained at close range, I can do the most damage at close range

I agree with Mook that there are only so many training hours in a day, but I will add this:

If I mix my Wing chun training with to much sparring at tap-tap range, what will be my instinct when the SHTF? I expect that the brain freeze will be prolonged by trying to decide what distance I want to be at.

I love to cross-train but to me that means to scrap with someone of a different style and to immediately close the gap so the _he_ has to play _my_ game, not the other way around.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 30, 2014)

Cephalopod said:


> immediately close the gap so the _he_ has to play _my_ game, not the other way around.


I like this strategy too. 

What will happen when you try to close the gap, your opponent just help you to close that gap more than you want to (such as the clinch range)? If you are good in both short distance striking range and also are good in clinch range, you will feel much more comfortable.

WC is already train in short striking range. I just don't see any good reason not also to train the clinching range at the same time.


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## mook jong man (Jun 30, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like this strategy too.
> 
> What will happen when you try to close the gap, your opponent just help you to close that gap more than you want to (such as the clinch range)? If you are good in both short distance striking range and also are good in clinch range, you will feel much more comfortable.
> 
> WC is already train in short striking range. I just don't see any good reason not also to train the clinching range at the same time.



We already train clinching range , our preference is to clinch around the back of the neck.


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> Well, his philosophies may not have been original (a lot of them are derived from Taoism and Buddhism), but I never heard of anyone before him who expressed the idea of freeing yourself from styles. I think every high-level martial artist does this, whether your chosen art is wing chun, TKD, karate, or whatever.



Edward Barton right.

Kano.

Bimba.


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## geezer (Jul 1, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> ...WC is already train in short striking range. I just don't see any good reason not also to train the clinching range at the same time.



_Absolutely._ Because WC specializes in close striking, we are always close to the clinch. If you don't train the clinch too, you are very vulnerable.


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## Cephalopod (Jul 1, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What will happen when you try to close the gap, your opponent just help you to close that gap more than you want to (such as the clinch range)? If you are good in both short distance striking range and also are good in clinch range, you will feel much more comfortable.



Admittedly, when I wrote my argument I mostly had the eponymous outside range in mind.
To a certain degree, however, the same applies. If my opponent puts me in the range of a boxer's clinch I feel disadvantaged, mainly because I sense an impending take-town. My priority therefore is to maneuver my way back to my preferred distance. That being said, my preferred distance is indeed quite close...where I can pin, apply unbalancing pressure, deliver short centerline blows under the jaw and strike with my elbows.

Should I train at a clinching distance? Abso-stinkin-lutely! Just as I train closing the gap with a distance fighter.  But the goal of my training remains the same. Get him in _my_ game.


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## wingchun100 (Jul 1, 2014)

Even in clinching range, they are still in our game because we train to hit HARD with no wind-up or telegraphing. Plus there are always good old elbows and biu jee.


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## kung fu fighter (Jul 9, 2014)

geezer said:


> My _outside game_ is totally designed to_ get inside_ ...not to hang around and sharp-shoot from far away.



I like this statement! this is true for me as well.


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