# Being a bodybuilder or big tall and strong really good thing to help out in self defense?



## moonhill99 (Dec 8, 2015)

Being a bodybuilder or big tall and strong really good thing to help out in self defense? Why don't we do all three?

It does not take much discipline and commitment to be big and strong, think of it like a small job you got at the Target store!!

On average it takes 8 years for martial arts to be used in self defense. Well some things like boxing or wing chun can be used in year or two in self defense if it does not go to ground.

Being small or not strong is major disadvantage.  Why don't more martial arts school work on getting big? 

Most people want to be strong not weak.  Even females are getting into it bulking up now.

These girls could probably pick up 300 pound guy off the ground and throw them on the ground hard.
















Being big, strong and tough and tall is very advantage in self defense? 

Here is tall strong female.






One is Melanie Cruise a wrestler





Well some people say no matter how big you are and tall you are  and strong if you get jumped by two or three street thugs you get really hurt bad.


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## Jenna (Dec 9, 2015)

If you are big, tall and strong good for you then you must determine HOW to use those attributes to your advantage for they are not advantageous implicitly on their own.. just because you are tall or strong does not mean you can take all comers!

I am not tall, not strong and not big.. rather than spend half of my life trying to re-engineer my self into some thing I am not designed as, I prefer to spend the time analysing any short comings that arise as a result of my stature and then rectifying those in training as realistically with as many different type of fighter as possible, shape, size, age, and art.

If you are big and tall and strong you may also have blind spots or short comings!! Do not fool your self into imagining just because of your physical attributes you are invincible. Assess your self realistically, be true about your own weaknesses, admit your fallibility and train out those fail points.. Then and ONLY then can you sit back rest on your laurels etc.. 

I do not believe size, skill, age count for any thing unless you have trained your self to utilise those attributes and smoothed out the rough edges of your weaknesses.. every body has them!

Jx


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## Paul_D (Dec 9, 2015)

Geoff Thompson refers to body-building as a sugar pedestal (or to put it another way, a false sense of security) because being big doesn't mean you know how to handle yourself.  Being big can also attract exactly the attention you are trying to avoid, from people looking to earn brownie points for taking down someone big.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2015)

For me I just could not be bothered to be in a gym lifting weights. It just bored me to tears. If I was bigger I probably would have been a better fighter.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 9, 2015)

Strength is good.  Make no mistake about that.

However, there is a problem when strength is used in lieu of technique.  It may work as a replacement for good technique in some small ways, but ultimately, to become a good martial artist, you must learn good technique.  If you can do that and be strong, that's great.  Just don't let strength lead the way towards your training; technique should rule.

Even small martial artists with good technique have no problem defending themselves against large strong people.  This was proven quite effectively after the end of WWII in Okinawa, when the American servicemen took possession of the island and began training with local Okinawan karate masters.  If the Okinawan karateka, typically much smaller and lighter than your average Americans, could not have demonstrated their superior fighting skills to the Americans, no one would have wanted to train with them.  Why train with someone who cannot kick your butt?

All kinds of physical training can be helpful.  Flexibility training, strength training, cardiovascular training, all good.  But technique is best.  If you can have them all, then so much the better.


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## SAConner (Dec 9, 2015)

Many martial arts a designed for smaller people taking on lager opponents, in which case those who practice them would normally have an advantage against bigger and stronger people.One of the main reasons we have so much diversity in martial arts today is because no matter what you study you only need to keep what works for you. For instance a technique that works well for a larger and stronger person may not be as effective for a smaller person and vice versa. Focusing on getting bigger may be the best option for you but there are many artists out there it would never work for.


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## crazydiamond (Dec 9, 2015)

Its a sliding scale right? height/.Size/strength (and I suppose age)  to skill.   I trained last night with a girl, probably 15 who was 5 foot tall and weighed maybe 80lbs.  There is no way should could do any damage to me - other than an eye poke. I could have grabbed her by the ankle and swung her around my head.  On the hand I have instructors with 20 + years of training - that while I outweigh by 90 lbs -  could with a little effort really destroy me... their speed, accuracy, and power is amazing. I might also say - that while being big strong is nice - I am slow compared to many other class mates.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 9, 2015)

1) Strength is good. Having a strength training routine is useful for any martial artist.
2) Body building is a sport devoted towards developing a certain aesthetic *look*. There are other forms of training that are more geared towards developing *functional* strength. (Not to say that body builders aren't strong, but I'll take a power-lifter or a strong-man competitor over a body builder any day.)
3) Contrary to what you say, developing a high-degree of strength *does* require discipline, commitment, and hard work. Some folks start out with a genetic advantage, but even those folks will have to work hard to reach their potential.


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## Flatfish (Dec 9, 2015)

^ this


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## Buka (Dec 9, 2015)

You can only be so tall.
Being strong is good, being strong and fit is even better.

Being big don't amount to a hill o' beans.


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## pgsmith (Dec 9, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> It does not take much discipline and commitment to be big and strong, think of it like a small job you got at the Target store!!


  That is an incorrect statement. You should try a serious body building routine for a few months, then come back and tell us how much discipline and commitment it doesn't take.
  Why do you continually write your opinions on things in which you have absolutely no basis for those opinions? Seems to me that you should actually do something before putting down your opinion on it so it doesn't sound like you're quite so clueless.

  Just my opinion, but at least I have some basis for it.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2015)

I think he just likes looking at female bodybuilders.  Hence, the video links.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> I think he just likes looking at female bodybuilders.  Hence, the video links.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 9, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> Its a sliding scale right? height/.Size/strength (and I suppose age)  to skill.   I trained last night with a girl, probably 15 who was 5 foot tall and weighed maybe 80lbs.  There is no way should could do any damage to me - other than an eye poke. I could have grabbed her by the ankle and swung her around my head.  On the hand I have instructors with 20 + years of training - that while I outweigh by 90 lbs -  could with a little effort really destroy me... their speed, accuracy, and power is amazing. I might also say - that while being big strong is nice - I am slow compared to many other class mates.



She probably should work on bulking up if she wants to defend her herself.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 9, 2015)

pgsmith said:


> That is an incorrect statement. You should try a serious body building routine for a few months, then come back and tell us how much discipline and commitment it doesn't take.
> Why do you continually write your opinions on things in which you have absolutely no basis for those opinions? Seems to me that you should actually do something before putting down your opinion on it so it doesn't sound like you're quite so clueless.
> 
> Just my opinion, but at least I have some basis for it.



I known some people that gone from skinny to borderline bodybuilder in year or two.

Really really really big bodybuilders like Arnold Schwarzenegger or bigger will be really hard to do and need lot of hard work and contentment.

If you are 120 pounds collage guy or girl you could bulk up to say 170 pounds.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 9, 2015)

Buka said:


> You can only be so tall.
> Being strong is good, being strong and fit is even better.
> 
> Being big don't amount to a hill o' beans.



Some advantage of being tall are  Longer kicking range/ kick them before they get close to you, pick people up and throw them, attacker trouble punching or kicking your face, you can hold them down or pin them to wall.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 9, 2015)

Paul_D said:


> Geoff Thompson refers to body-building as a sugar pedestal (or to put it another way, a false sense of security) because being big doesn't mean you know how to handle yourself.  Being big can also attract exactly the attention you are trying to avoid, from people looking to earn brownie points for taking down someone big.



I think what Geoff Thompson was trying to get at is it don't matter if you are 100 pounds or 300 pound really big monster!!! A kick to a face or head is bad. No amount of bodybuilding is going to help with a punch or kick to the face. Same thing with strikes to knees or genitals. Your body does not really bulk up in those areas.

The extra fat and body muscle where go yo your chest and abdomen give you more body armor in those areas.


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## Hanzou (Dec 9, 2015)

Teddy Riner, 6'8 305 lb Olympic Judo champion.

You combine that size and strength with Judo and wrestling skill, and you have a dangerous combination.


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## Paul_D (Dec 10, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I think what Geoff Thompson was trying to get at is it don't matter if you are 100 pounds or 300 pound really big monster!!! A kick to a face or head is bad. No amount of bodybuilding is going to help with a punch or kick to the face. Same thing with strikes to knees or genitals. Your body does not really bulk up in those areas.
> 
> The extra fat and body muscle where go yo your chest and abdomen give you more body armor in those areas.


No, he is referring to a false sense of security/ability.  If you read watch my back he uses it to refer to himself, thinking he was prepared for violence when he actually wasn't;_
_
Anyway, there I was, sixteen, left aikido and by now a purple belt in Shotokan karate, standing on a "Sugar Pedestal", not realising that when the rain came down it would crumble below.
_
He is referring, with body-building, again to the false sense of security of begin big.  "I'm the biggest so I'll win.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Dec 10, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> Being a bodybuilder or big tall and strong really good thing to help out in self defense? Why don't we do all three?
> 
> It does not take much discipline and commitment to be big and strong, think of it like a small job you got at the Target store!!
> 
> ...


Rubbish being strong isn't helpful at all. How many mma fighters who are hugely muscled end up getting exhausted 2 minutes into a fight. Being big and muscled is overrated


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## Jenna (Dec 10, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Teddy Riner, 6'8 305 lb Olympic Judo champion.
> 
> You combine that size and strength with Judo and wrestling skill, and you have a dangerous combination.


.. a nice start to the day  thank you!


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## Jenna (Dec 10, 2015)

drop bear said:


>


..am curious where is she on a scale of body attractiveness would you say? Are you personally, attracted by built women like this? she is not classical female figure?? every one is different in preferences yes I know.. just polite inquiry (research )


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2015)

Jenna said:


> ..am curious where is she on a scale of body attractiveness would you say? Are you personally, attracted by built women like this? she is not classical female figure?? every one is different in preferences yes I know.. just polite inquiry (research )



Mabye an 8 for that girl. I think the actual body builders like in the first videos go to far.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Dec 10, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> Being a bodybuilder or big tall and strong really good thing to help out in self defense? Why don't we do all three?
> 
> It does not take much discipline and commitment to be big and strong, think of it like a small job you got at the Target store!!
> 
> ...




So are you saying people like miesha Tate, holy holm, Roy nelson people like that can't fight?


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2015)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> So are you saying people like miesha Tate, holy holm, Roy nelson people like that can't fight?








Holly was bigger than Ronda.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 10, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> Some advantage of being tall are  Longer kicking range/ kick them before they get close to you, pick people up and throw them, attacker trouble punching or kicking your face, you can hold them down or pin them to wall.



For every advantage, there is a disadvantage.  Martial arts are typically very capable of picking out the advantages and disadvantages of each body type and allowing others to capitalize on that.  Don't think genetics grants superiority in all cases.  I like to spar guys with long legs and arms.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 10, 2015)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> So are you saying people like miesha Tate, holy holm, Roy nelson people like that can't fight?



That is the thing these people are really skilled people. More skilled than most black belt martial artist , even lot of martial artist instructors!!

These people train everyday and been doing it when they where teen. If you started today training two or three times a week you never get anywhere close to their level.

If you where teen and did it everyday you may get close to that level by the time you got into your late 20's.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 10, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Mabye an 8 for that girl. I think the actual body builders like in the first videos go to far.



I think what he said that powerlifters are strong people but bodybuilders may not be strong.

Do you lift to get strong and tough or lift to get big. Or do you try to do both?


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## moonhill99 (Dec 10, 2015)

Jenna said:


> ..am curious where is she on a scale of body attractiveness would you say? Are you personally, attracted by built women like this? she is not classical female figure?? every one is different in preferences yes I know.. just polite inquiry (research )



Do I find attractiveness big,tall and strong? I think people should try to be big,tall and strong than say small, weak and short.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 10, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> For every advantage, there is a disadvantage.  Martial arts are typically very capable of picking out the advantages and disadvantages of each body type and allowing others to capitalize on that.  Don't think genetics grants superiority in all cases.  I like to spar guys with long legs and arms.



What advantage does small, weak and short person have over a big,tall and strong person.

Some of these a big,tall and strong pick people up and throw them to ground if their wight was like small kid.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 10, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Teddy Riner, 6'8 305 lb Olympic Judo champion.
> 
> You combine that size and strength with Judo and wrestling skill, and you have a dangerous combination.



For small girl 100 pounds may not be even possible to get any where like him.

She may have to work on some thing else.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 10, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I think people should try to be big,tall and strong than say small, weak and short.


You can try all you like to be tall or short, but it's not really a feature that's open to training one way or another.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I think what he said that powerlifters are strong people but bodybuilders may not be strong.
> 
> Do you lift to get strong and tough or lift to get big. Or do you try to do both?



I sort of cross fit. To stay a bit fit. I do a sports system and because of weight classes it changes the dynamics.


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## Tames D (Dec 10, 2015)

Jenna said:


> .. a nice start to the day  thank you!


Horny are we? :}


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## Tames D (Dec 10, 2015)

Jenna said:


> ..am curious where is she on a scale of body attractiveness would you say? Are you personally, attracted by built women like this? she is not classical female figure?? every one is different in preferences yes I know.. just polite inquiry (research )


She is a 10. The biceps are cool. But I take the face into account as well.


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## Tames D (Dec 10, 2015)

Kenpoguy123 said:


> So are you saying people like miesha Tate, holy holm, Roy nelson people like that can't fight?


Roy Nelson is a body builder??? LOL


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 11, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> What advantage does small, weak and short person have over a big,tall and strong person.



It depends very much on what the small, weak, and short person knows and what the big, tall, and strong person doesn't.

I do not mean this in a negative way, but you are showing your lack of understanding of martial arts.  Good technique and body mechanics overcome much.

My own style of karate comes from Okinawa.  The Okinawans are not large people.  The founder of my style was maybe 125 pounds soaking wet.  And yet he trained US Marines who were are large as 6 foot 8 tall and weighed 250 or more, most of it muscle.  If he could not demonstrate the effectiveness of his technique to them, convince them that he could toss them around like rag dolls, do you suppose they would have trained hard with him after work, night after night, and brought his style back to the USA with them?  He obviously had to prove how well his system worked or they'd have refused to train with him.

Big is nice.  I'm big.  It means very little by itself in martial arts.  If you don't already know that, you're not very good at martial arts.



> Some of these a big,tall and strong pick people up and throw them to ground if their wight was like small kid.



You think so, but it's not true.  We have a young woman in our dojo who most likely weighs about 100 pounds if that.  I am pretty sure she can kick most men's butts.  And even assuming someone larger got ahold of her and threw her to the ground, she'd be back up in a second, and they'd be tasting their testicles.  Trust me on this.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 11, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> Do I find attractiveness big,tall and strong? I think people should try to be big,tall and strong than say small, weak and short.



You don't know what true strength is, then.  Come back when you grow up.


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## Flatfish (Dec 11, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> For small girl 100 pounds may not be even possible to get any where like him.
> 
> She may have to work on some thing else.




Yes I agree it may not be possible for a 5'5" 80 lbs girl to get to be 6'8" and 300 lbs


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## moonhill99 (Dec 11, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Roy Nelson is a body builder??? LOL



Yea some of the MMA fighters are overweight. Being overweight is not going to help.

Than there is also thing if bodybuilder becomes too big flexibility becomes a problem.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 11, 2015)

There is also size and how tall. A 6'9" is taller than 6 foot tall person!! But if that 6'9" is really skinny and that 6 foot tall person is sorta of like a bodybuilder, I would take the 6 foot tall person better chance to win fight over 6'9 person.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 11, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You don't know what true strength is, then.  Come back when you grow up.



Mattocks I use to be smaller and getting water from fringe, carrying big TV, carrying box full of books or bag of groceries was much harder before.I was much weaker.

I got bit bigger now and if I only was a bodybuilder or power lifter even a borderline bodybuilder or power lifter it may make big difference.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 11, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> It depends very much on what the small, weak, and short person knows and what the big, tall, and strong person doesn't.
> 
> I do not mean this in a negative way, but you are showing your lack of understanding of martial arts.  Good technique and body mechanics overcome much.
> 
> ...



I think big, tall and strong person make really good at at Judo and wrestling. 

But in self defense most people on street don't know how to fight or they try to emulate how street gangs fight or what they see on TV.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 11, 2015)

Flatfish said:


> Yes I agree it may not be possible for a 5'5" 80 lbs girl to get to be 6'8" and 300 lbs



I read horror stories where some bodybuilders almost died trying to be extremely big.

One of them risks his life by injecting oil and alcohol into his biceps!!

Bodybuilder risks his life by injecting oil and alcohol


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## drop bear (Dec 11, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> There is also size and how tall. A 6'9" is taller than 6 foot tall person!! But if that 6'9" is really skinny and that 6 foot tall person is sorta of like a bodybuilder, I would take the 6 foot tall person better chance to win fight over 6'9 person.



If they are the same weight the taller guy generally has the advantage. Because of reach.


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## Hanzou (Dec 11, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> For small girl 100 pounds may not be even possible to get any where like him.
> 
> She may have to work on some thing else.



That particular person yes, because not only is he a physical specimen, but he's also a highly trained athlete. That gives him far too many advantages to overcome outside of using bladed weapons or firearms.


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## jks9199 (Dec 12, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I known some people that gone from skinny to borderline bodybuilder in year or two.
> 
> Really really really big bodybuilders like Arnold Schwarzenegger or bigger will be really hard to do and need lot of hard work and contentment.
> 
> If you are 120 pounds collage guy or girl you could bulk up to say 170 pounds.


Without some pharmaceutical "assistance", I'm skeptical of a 50 pound muscle gain in a year.  It might be doable for a few, genetically gifted individuals with excellent nutrition and training support, but I don't think it's doable for most.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 12, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Without some pharmaceutical "assistance", I'm skeptical of a 50 pound muscle gain in a year.  It might be doable for a few, genetically gifted individuals with excellent nutrition and training support, but I don't think it's doable for most.


Even for those who can manage such a feat, it represents a lot of hard work and commitment.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 12, 2015)

drop bear said:


> If they are the same weight the taller guy generally has the advantage. Because of reach.



The taller you are the harder it is to bulk up.

Why are the majority of bodybuilders short? 
Why are the majority of bodybuilders short? • /r/bodybuilding

 WHY Am I Getting Stronger But NOT Bigger?





Getting big does not mean your may stronger. 

Bodybuilders use different muscles when working out than powerlifters and powerlifters don't care about looks they care about getting strong.

A Bodybuilders may not be strong in that sense well they will be stronger than skinny person but normally will not be strong like powerlifters.

Bodybuilders is more concern with looks than powerlifters.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 12, 2015)

How big can a Bodybuilders or powerlifters before it interference with flexibility of martial arts.

I seen some Bodybuilders get so big to the extreme they move like robots.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 12, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> That particular person yes, because not only is he a physical specimen, but he's also a highly trained athlete. That gives him far too many advantages to overcome outside of using bladed weapons or firearms.



There is chart on the internet base on your age, sex and height what your wight should be. Higher than that you are overweight and lower than that you are skinny.

Than there is chart base on that if you a Bodybuilder what it should be from there.


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## moonhill99 (Dec 12, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> That particular person yes, because not only is he a physical specimen, but he's also a highly trained athlete. That gives him far too many advantages to overcome outside of using bladed weapons or firearms.



Out side of drugs and hormones supplements a 100 pound girl 5 feet tall would have hard time getting that big.

And these drugs and hormones supplements may even kill her that she will need.


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## crazydiamond (Dec 13, 2015)

Did I read that Holly's trainers use weights and strength training while Ronda's camp has a "no weight lifting" policy?  

About flexibility - some guys who lift these days are embracing yoga. I see lots of it among U.S. Football players these days.


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## Hanzou (Dec 13, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> Out side of drugs and hormones supplements a 100 pound girl 5 feet tall would have hard time getting that big.
> 
> And these drugs and hormones supplements may even kill her that she will need.



Sorry, I misread what you were talking about.

Yeah, there's zero chance of a 5ft 100lb woman ever getting that size. That guy's size is almost entirely due to genetics.


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## Skullpunch (Dec 16, 2015)

Of course being strong will help.  I don't think you should make it to where it's the only thing you have going for you though, not if self defense is your primary concern.

In highly generalized terms that can't hope to cover every situation and/or individual variable, my thoughts are this:  In order for strength to beat technique, the strong guy's strength advantage must be bigger than the technical guy's technique advantage.  In order for technique to beat strength, the technical guy's technique advantage must be bigger than the strong guy's strength advantage.


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## Ironbear24 (Dec 17, 2015)

I am a very thick dude. 5'9 and 206 pounds. Not tall but I am muscular and kind of chubby, I can throw roundhouse kicks, got fast hands and am pretty at blocking, but when I weight train and bench 270 or whatever. I don't say to myself, "this is going to help me in a street fight." Or even "this is going to improve my martial art".

Weight lifting is separate from martial arts, but the benefits it brings can help you in it; however it is not a foundation for it. As long as a person has a good foundation and understanding of how to apply the core of their martial art into defending themselves/competition, than that is the most important.

I think that the reason you don't see super huge guys often in martial arts is because it is not part of the core fundamentals of any martial art, the core fundamentals are what's practice most because they matter the most.


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## Spinoza (Jan 7, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> On average it takes 8 years for martial arts to be used in self defense. Well some things like boxing or wing chun can be used in year or two in self defense if it does not go to ground.


Most fights do not go to the ground. Yes, it is extremely useful to learn what to do if a fight does go to the ground, but you don't need 8 years to learn legitimate self defense techniques. And, like strength training, it is a progression. It isn't like you suddenly reach a specific point where you are like "okay, now I know self defense" or "okay, now I'm strong." It's about making gains. And if you are interested in strength training for practical strength, focus on that rather than bodybuilding.

And if you are only looking in the short term (not sure why you would), even then I don't think there is any question whether 2 months of boxing lessons or 2 months of weight lifting is going to help you more in a fight.


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## Spinoza (Jan 7, 2016)

Jenna said:


> ..am curious where is she on a scale of body attractiveness would you say? Are you personally, attracted by built women like this? she is not classical female figure?? every one is different in preferences yes I know.. just polite inquiry (research )


Hope you don't mind if I answer as well, but a solid 9 IMO. Most men I know are attracted to athletic women like this, except for the ones who are intimidated by it.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 7, 2016)

Yeah it is a progression thing. Whether it is 2 months of boxing or 2 months of karate you will be more well off then if you were to be without the 2 months of boxing or 2 months of karate.

I don't think the weight lifting will help you at all in a fight though. A punch or a kick isn't all that about arm or leg muscle strength. It's more about the physics of how you distribute the force of your feet moving off the ground, thougout your body, and finally into your fist. The strength would really only come into play if you are grappling and even then technique is more important then actual strength. Hip rotation is also very important.

My point is it does help, but the training in the martial arts whether it be boxing or a more asianic style, that would be much more important.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 7, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> Without some pharmaceutical "assistance", I'm skeptical of a 50 pound muscle gain in a year.  It might be doable for a few, genetically gifted individuals with excellent nutrition and training support, but I don't think it's doable for most.



I myself only gained around 30-35 give or take. For 60 that took 2 years.


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## Spinoza (Jan 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Yeah it is a progression thing. Whether it is 2 months of boxing or 2 months of karate you will be more well off then if you were to be without the 2 months of boxing or 2 months of karate.
> 
> I don't think the weight lifting will help you at all in a fight though. A punch or a kick isn't all that about arm or leg muscle strength. It's more about the physics of how you distribute the force of your feet moving off the ground, thougout your body, and finally into your fist. The strength would really only come into play if you are grappling and even then technique is more important then actual strength. Hip rotation is also very important.
> 
> My point is it does help, but the training in the martial arts whether it be boxing or a more asianic style, that would be much more important.


Bingo. Just as if you wanted a better vertical jump, you practice plyometric vertical jumps. Sure, maybe working on bigger legs with leg presses will help a little, but it is a roundabout way to approach your goals.

If you go to a strength trainer and ask about strength training, he or she is going to ask about your primary goals: functional strength, "explosive" strength, flexibility, stamina or size/hypertrophy, and the routine is going to be a little different for each. Most bodybuilders I've talked to avoid cardio like the plague . . . I don't think any sports fighter would do the same.


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## Ironbear24 (Jan 7, 2016)

Spinoza said:


> Bingo. Just as if you wanted a better vertical jump, you practice plyometric vertical jumps. Sure, maybe working on bigger legs with leg presses will help a little, but it is a roundabout way to approach your goals.
> 
> If you go to a strength trainer and ask about strength training, he or she is going to ask about your primary goals: functional strength, "explosive" strength, flexibility, stamina or size/hypertrophy, and the routine is going to be a little different for each. Most bodybuilders I've talked to avoid cardio like the plague . . . I don't think any sports fighter would do the same.



That's the perfect example. Weight training and body building help indirectly, but not directly. 

Bodybuilders are avoiding cardio? That's not right, cardio helps burn fat, and is the best way to burn it. Are these powerlifters you are talking about? I know they avoid doing cardio because they lift for strength and muscle gains only. They also eat absurd amounts of food, mostly protein and carbs.


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## Skullpunch (Jan 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> That's the perfect example. Weight training and body building help indirectly, but not directly.
> 
> Bodybuilders are avoiding cardio? That's not right, cardio helps burn fat, and is the best way to burn it. Are these powerlifters you are talking about? I know they avoid doing cardio because they lift for strength and muscle gains only. They also eat absurd amounts of food, mostly protein and carbs.



Actually it's not even uncommon for powerlifters to do their own form of conditioning/gpp such as tire flipping, prowler/sled training, etc.

I have no idea where some of the ideas about strength and muscularity people have ITT are coming from.

Strength is a major factor in any kind of physical fight.  It's true that some overrate it but take 2 guys of equal skill and the stronger one will curb stomp the weaker one every-time barring some ridiculous disadvantage like having 30 seconds worth of stamina or something.  Technique does not beat strength as an absolute, it happens when your technical advantage is bigger than your attacker/opponent's strength advantage.

Even in striking, more maximal strength and muscle mass = more potential to generate explosive power with the right training, which very well can translate into harder strikes.  That's is why it's impossible for someone built like Mayweather to ever be able to hit like Mike Tyson.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 7, 2016)

moonhill99 said:


> I known some people that gone from skinny to borderline bodybuilder in year or two.
> 
> Really really really big bodybuilders like Arnold Schwarzenegger or bigger will be really hard to do and need lot of hard work and contentment.
> 
> If you are 120 pounds collage guy or girl you could bulk up to say 170 pounds.



Late but, I was a 120 pound college guy at the beginning of my freshman year. Outside of fencing and martial arts, I probably worked out around 2 hours each day on average. About half of that was cardio, a quarter was strength, and the last quarter was other stuff (agility, flexibility, etc.). Which meant half an hour each day, for four years, I was doing some sort of strength training. I finished college weighing around 135-140. After college I stopped for a bit and within three months, I was back down to 120. Not everyone has a body type that allows them to bulk up, and some people's body's fight to go back to the way they were. 

Now for me this works in my favor because I happen to like this build; I've learned how to fight using it to my advantage and I would rather people not think I'm a threat if they try to engage me. But even if I didn't, there's nothing I could really do short of steroids maybe to change it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 7, 2016)

Skullpunch said:


> Strength is a major factor in any kind of physical fight.  It's true that some overrate it but take 2 guys of equal skill and the stronger one will curb stomp the weaker one every-time barring some ridiculous disadvantage like having 30 seconds worth of stamina or something.



I'd have to disagree with this. Sparring with people around teh same level as myself, there are times where there is a clear winner one way or the other, and it's not always the same winner. Even though we don't actually fight with the intent to hurt each other, it's clear when that would occur, and while strength would probably play a role if we actually fought, I don't think there would be any 'curb stomping every time' going on.


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## drop bear (Jan 8, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> I'd have to disagree with this. Sparring with people around teh same level as myself, there are times where there is a clear winner one way or the other, and it's not always the same winner. Even though we don't actually fight with the intent to hurt each other, it's clear when that would occur, and while strength would probably play a role if we actually fought, I don't think there would be any 'curb stomping every time' going on.



Sparring is different. And to a certain degree harder for the bigger guy because he has to hold back more. 

Easy to find out.  Put on some big gloves and do a 30 second round at pace.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 8, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Sparring is different. And to a certain degree harder for the bigger guy because he has to hold back more.



Not saying necessarily that sparring would be a perfect correlation, just using it to show that fighting can be unpredictable.



> Easy to find out. Put on some big gloves and do a 30 second round at pace.



At my first dojo, it was run by kickboxers, so every once in a while they would have us do exactly that. Still stick to my statement.


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## Skullpunch (Jan 9, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Even though we don't actually fight with the intent to hurt each other, it's clear when that would occur



I think you're overestimating your awareness to a staggering degree on this one.  How can you know something like this?  Without fighting with the intent to hurt you're not take the full brunt of each other's strikes, and anytime you end up clinching in the chaos of a real fight you would feel a stronger guy's strength immediately and unless your technical advantage is bigger than his strength advantage you are either going to go down (possibly very hard if he wants you to) or if you do manage to fight him off you're probably going to spend a good bit more stamina doing so than he did holding onto you, in which case now you're both weaker than he is AND more gassed - at that point you're in trouble any way you try to slice it.

And of course there's the possibility of ending up on the ground.  Anyone that trains will tell you how much it sucks having a bigger, stronger guy that knows what he's doing on top of you.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 9, 2016)

In regards to the ground- was referring primarily to stand up fighting. Don't have enough experience with regards to ground fighting to weigh in either way on that subject.
As for the rest, it's fairly easy to tell when someone throws a punch to my face and I take it, but not at full power, that I would have gone down, especially when they're bigger than me. When I manage to get in a situation where I can throw multiple successful shots in a row, if I couldn't do some serious damage to him then there's some other issue besides weight going on.


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## Skullpunch (Jan 9, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> In regards to the ground- was referring primarily to stand up fighting. Don't have enough experience with regards to ground fighting to weigh in either way on that subject.
> As for the rest, it's fairly easy to tell when someone throws a punch to my face and I take it, but not at full power, that I would have gone down, especially when they're bigger than me. When I manage to get in a situation where I can throw multiple successful shots in a row, if I couldn't do some serious damage to him then there's some other issue besides weight going on.



You're still oversimplifying this.  For example, getting hit doesn't just deal physical damage, it also deals psychological damage and damage to your fatigue.  A body shot from a heavyweight is going to feel completely different than a body shot from a welterweight, and glancing blows from the heavyweight could be as damaging as clean shots from the welter.  And you also have to take the cumulative effect into account - this is where you would definitely feel a difference in strength and it's a non-issue if you're not trying to cause damage to each other but it's a HUGE issue if you are.

As for your last sentence....not really.  That happens all the time.  Ever see a boxing match where a smaller dude goes up in weight to fight a bigger opponent, lands hundreds of punches - some of which look like bombs that should be able to put the other dude down, and he can't seem to hurt him at all?

Standup fighting also involves clinching, another position in which the stronger guy's advantage should be pretty obvious.


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## Skullpunch (Jan 9, 2016)

double post


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 9, 2016)

Well, without actually talking in person i get the feeling this conversation will end up really repetitive, and we won't end up agreeing, so going to stop it here


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