# Xingyiquan  Post Standing - more from a Xingyi addict



## Xue Sheng (Feb 12, 2010)

It is no secret that Xingyiquan is big on Santi Shi (aka one type of post standing). Also that may a Xingyi Sifu wants you to stand in Santi for at least 30 minutes per side to get a good base for Xingyiquan. However many Sifu types back in the old days wanted their students to stand in Santi for up to 2 hours a day. However many today feel that 30 minutes per side per day is good enough just as long as you stand properly. If you are not standing properly you are not getting the needed base for Xingyiquan.

But I have also read that a beginner if he/she stands long enough will adjust to the proper stance on his/her own. However there are guidelines to follow and it takes time (more on that later) 

However there is another rule of Xingyiquan form the old days that I recently came across in dealing with Post standing. You need to spend 3 years training (Xingyiquan is big on the number 3) post to get that good base so if you stand 1 hour per day for 3 years you are at 1095 hours. But you cant just train post; you also need to train the forms. Because if all you do is train post you do not learn how to move your root and you could end up with a real strong root (double weighted) but you cant move and maintain it.

There are however different types of post training in Xingyiquan that are part of this, it is not just Santi Shi. What seems to generally agreed upon as post training for Xingyiquan includes Wuji, zhan zhuang (aka húnyuán zhu&#257;ng  Primordial Post Standing  Yiquan stands a bit differently for this one or the translation that I read is wrong) s&#257;nt&#464;sh&#464; zhu&#257;ng (three bodies [trinity] standing) jiàng lóng zhu&#257;ng (Surround the dragon post standing) and fú h&#365; zhu&#257;ng (subdue the tiger post standing) 

Other post standing I have seen associated with Xingyiquan are lóng xíng g&#333;ng (Dragon standing  not the same as surround the dragon), h&#365; xíng g&#333;ng (Tiger standing  not the same as subdue the tiger) yuán xíng g&#333;ng (ape standing), xi&#333;ng xíng g&#333;ng (bear standing).

There is also a more active type of standing similar to s&#257;nt&#464;sh&#464; zhu&#257;ng that is called zá zhu&#257;ng (pounding post standing)

Ape standing I do believe is also found in, and an important part of Dai Xinyiquan, where many believe Xingyiquan comes from and I also believe you still find it in Shanxi style Xingyiquan. Also if memory serves me the Dai Xinyi people cant understand how you can make any of this work without Ape standing.


Wuji Zhuang (there are variations)

Zhan Zhuang (Húnyuán Zhu&#257;ng)

Yiquan Húnyuán Zhu&#257;ng

Considered advanced standing posture, or so I have been told

Jiàng Lóng Zhu&#257;ng

Fú H&#365; Zhu&#257;ng

And now back to Santi Shi

The following on the stages of Santi from beginner to higher is from Di Guoyong On Xingyiquan Volume I Five Element Foundation by Di Guoyong as it applies to training santi shi. (This is a very good book that has a lot of detail as it applies to proper stances). Now here is a shock, there are 3 levels of training santi beginner, intermediate and higher. I will not go into great detail, this is more of a short summary, but I will give some idea as to what he has said. 

Note: all breathing is done through the nose not the mouth in all stages

Beginner
1) Work on getting the correct posture
2) Relaxing. Once you get the correct posture you will find that your body will relax. This is not saying slack but relaxed.
3) Calm down. In other words focus on standing not what youre going to have for lunch. Eventually your mind will calm down so you can focus on just standing

Intermediate
1) Refine the posture, look for the power flow
2) Look inside and outside. Inside (internal) to make the body healthy. Outside for fighting ability. Internal is looking to develop your mind to follow the conception vessel and once you can focus your mind on that the qi will naturally follow. After that the heavenly circuit (the entire body) 
3) breathing, prior to this most of your focus was on correct posture and breathing was natural. Now you can begin to work on reverse abdominal breathing (Taoist breathing)

Higher level
1) unite internal and external 
2) breathing; inhale is long, deep and permeates the whole body. Exhale is fine slight and almost non-existent, and with all breathing there is no sound.
3) more relaxed

As I read, get and figure out more I shall post more.


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## JDenver (Feb 12, 2010)

Super duper.

I do zhan zhuang from a xingyi guy (but also does bagua).

I'm interested in santi.  You say that at intermediate you actually focus on the conception vessel?  Curious.  In my z.z we do no microcosmic or macrocosmic orbit stuff at all.  At best we focus on the lower dan tien, but even then it's not completely necessary.

Excited to read more--


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 12, 2010)

JDenver said:


> Super duper.
> 
> I do zhan zhuang from a xingyi guy (but also does bagua).
> 
> ...


 
This is what Di Guoyong says, I was taught a bit differently. I was taught to first focus on nothing as far as things qi go (My sifu said focus on your hand - the index finger actually) and as time goes the energy will flow by itself naturally and go where it needs to go. And as you relax you will notice the connections and power flow. 

But I am not saying that Di Guoyong is wrong he has been at this much longer than I, he is just going at it a different way as it appears form what I am reading many have slightly different ideas about things Xingyiquan. And that mostly comes down to lineage and style differences

Di Guoyong is also trying something that most that have written about Xingyi have not done. Write about it clearly in terms the average westerner might understand and he is breaking it down in great detail by comparison to others I have read. But then the others were writing for a Chinese audience not western. So it is possible that he was taught to concentrate on the conception vessel or it could be he is trying to put it into terms we may understand. Since his native language is not English it is hard to say

But still it is a great book IMO.


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## blindsage (Feb 12, 2010)

Awesome post again.  Please keep on sharing.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2010)

Read these (from the Tao Te Ching)



> Thirty-Seven
> 
> Tao abides in non-action,
> Yet nothing is left undone.
> ...


 
Now think Santi Shi and read them again...

And yes I obsess too much about Xingyiquan these days and I am likely reading to much about Taoism too

They are from the Tao Te Ching


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 14, 2010)

From the Nei-yeh



> 11
> When your body is not aligned,
> The inner power will not come.
> When you are not tranquil within,
> ...


 
When I first read this I immediately went to thoughts of Santi Shi but then I realized this applies to all postures in just about every martial art. But it is very much inline with the progression of training in CMA as it applies to the internal aspects of CMA. You need to get the posture right first and then the internal will follow


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## clfsean (Apr 14, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> From the Nei-yeh
> 
> 
> 
> When I first read this I immediately went to thoughts of Santi Shi but then I realized this applies to all postures in just about every martial art. But it is very much inline with the progression of training in CMA as it applies to the internal aspects of CMA. You need to get the posture right first and then the internal will follow



Luk Hop... that's the rule I follow ... Connect the six external & the six internals have channels to release...


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 14, 2010)

clfsean said:


> Luk Hop...


 
:eye-popping: Oh no, more Cantonese devil talk, now Mandarin, that's is the language of the chosen 



clfsean said:


> Luk Hop... that's the rule I follow ... Connect the six external & the six internals have channels to release...


 
I believe there are many that miss this and go straight to working on the internal and then wonder why it just doesn't seem to work


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## mograph (Apr 14, 2010)

My interpretation is that the postural alignment must be evaluated by the student internally. Does he _feel_ aligned? Does he _feel_ balanced? Does he _feel_ as if the sinews, muscles and fascia are connected? If not, he must make tiny adjustments to the posture based on those internal sensations.

Some interpret the Nei-yeh to mean "match a posture that _looks_ right, and never deviate from it. Then the power will flow in time." Yes, an instructor can get you _started_ in a posture, but you need to refine it in tiny increments yourself. The instructor can only take you so far. This is my experience.

Of course, we may all be talking about the same thing ...


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 14, 2010)

mograph said:


> My interpretation is that the postural alignment must be evaluated by the student internally. Does he _feel_ aligned? Does he _feel_ balanced? Does he _feel_ as if the sinews, muscles and fascia are connected? If not, he must make tiny adjustments to the posture based on those internal sensations.
> 
> Some interpret the Nei-yeh to mean "match a posture that _looks_ right, and never deviate from it. Then the power will flow in time." Yes, an instructor can get you _started_ in a posture, but you need to refine it in tiny increments yourself. The instructor can only take you so far. This is my experience.
> 
> Of course, we may all be talking about the same thing ...


 
IMO we are talking about the same thing, but maybe I'm wrong.

There are internal adjustments but in order to get to that point, to feel the sinews, muscles and fascia you need to get the posture as close to correct as possible (or maybe it is just getting use to the posture) and you need to reach a certain level of alignment and balance and once you get there you can then work on adjusting the posture internally because you begin to feel the connections in the sinews, muscles and fascia and then you start to refine the posture and the internal. 

But I have found that many want the internal first and don't want to work on the posture

But then there is a school of thought in Xingyi that says stand the qi will follow. Basically don't interfere just let it flow


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## clfsean (Apr 14, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> :eye-popping: Oh no, more Cantonese devil talk, now Mandarin, that's is the language of the chosen


 
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........ NNNEEEEEVVVEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!

Everybody knows that Cantonese is the language for the best MA from China, best Chinese food & is the true language of the patriots of China!!



Xue Sheng said:


> I believe there are many that miss this and go straight to working on the internal and then wonder why it just doesn't seem to work



Yeah... too many people go looking for "the Force" & forget that this is reality.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 14, 2010)

clfsean said:


> BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........ NNNEEEEEVVVEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Everybody knows that Cantonese is the language for the best MA from China, best Chinese food & is the true language of the patriots of China!!


 
Yup, per usual, Southerners talk to much  (actually I was first told that  by a lady from Guangzhou  )



> Yeah... too many people go looking for "the Force" & forget that this is reality.


 
That is pretty much it in a nutshell. And with the force fails them it is not they who are at fault it is the art


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## clfsean (Apr 15, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> That is pretty much it in a nutshell. And with the force fails them it is not they who are at fault it is the art



Yep... it's always the art's fault for not having "this" in there or the teacher for not showing them "this" so they can "do it right".

But I also blame the teacher's as far back as need be in perpetuating this myths as well. Nobody that uses/hints at smoke & mirrors is guilt free. 

If you can't do a thing in broad daylight 100 times with 100 different people, don't do it.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 15, 2010)

clfsean said:


> But I also blame the teacher's as far back as need be in perpetuating this myths as well. Nobody that uses/hints at smoke & mirrors is guilt free.
> 
> If you can't do a thing in broad daylight 100 times with 100 different people, don't do it.


 
You do have to admit though, in some cases, they did a bang up job of teaching their students how to fall down when necessary


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