# Which way to correctly do mawashi geri?



## Blade96 (Mar 23, 2010)

Was at class tonight, and was working on my mawashi geri. I had 2 BB's teaching me - one was a shodan and the other was my friend I mentioned in posts before I believe , Sandan, formerly my nidan. (he got sandan like 2 weeks ago)

They both told us different way mawashi geri should be done, and I dunno which is right way.

Shodan said to lift up your leg in front of you, like you was going to do a mae geri snap kick before moving it to the side.

Sandan said you lift your leg out sideways first paralel to ground before snapping the lower part of your leg out almost like a mae geri snap kick, except parallel to the ground (pretty much almost like yoko geri kicks)

Who is right? how is it most commonly done? Cause i was told 2 different things by 2 different BB's.......


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 23, 2010)

In Isshin-ryu, we don't normally do mawashi-geri, we do something similar called otoshi-geri. But in either case, knee comes up like mae-geri. Purpose is, I am told, to protect the groin. A kick can be a block, but not if the knee is off to the side. Remember, though, I'm no expert.


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## dancingalone (Mar 23, 2010)

You can do it either way.  The front kick chamber version is faster, albeit weaker.  I prefer the bigger motion in the second method since it lets you swing the hip into the kick more.  

Which is correct in your style?  Ask the chief instructor since he decides.  For what it's worth, the front kick chamber version seems to be more common in schools that spar in tournaments a lot.  You can also consult the classical Shotokan books.  Dynamic Karate by Matayoshi Nakayama, a direct student of Gichin Funakoshi, shows the bigger parallel chamber on page 139.  Seems to me the second method is more 'traditional'.


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## Carol (Mar 23, 2010)

Is the front-kick chamber a bit more precise in its targeting?  I've done it both ways


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## dancingalone (Mar 23, 2010)

Carol said:


> Is the front-kick chamber a bit more precise in its targeting?  I've done it both ways



Probably.  It's a shorter motion which tends to be quicker and easier to 'track' the target with.  If one is less flexible like some beginners can be, I actually think it's easier to learn the other method first since you can flare your hips open in the initial chambering.  The front kick chamber requires such a quick turning action...


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 23, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Probably.  It's a shorter motion which tends to be quicker and easier to 'track' the target with.  If one is less flexible like some beginners can be, I actually think it's easier to learn the other method first since you can flare your hips open in the initial chambering.  The front kick chamber requires such a quick turning action...



Correct me if I'm missing something, but if you raise your knee to the side, you present your crotch to me, and I'm going to snap kick it.

Also if you raise that leg up sideways, telegram. I'll rush in and jam your kick.

And if you chamber with the knee pointed ahead, not only do I not know what kick you're going to throw, but you can both block and steer with the knee if I kick you or rush you to jam your kick.

Just what I'm being taught, so respectfully asked.


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## dancingalone (Mar 24, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Correct me if I'm missing something, but if you raise your knee to the side, you present your crotch to me, and I'm going to snap kick it.
> 
> Also if you raise that leg up sideways, telegram. I'll rush in and jam your kick.
> 
> ...



Good questions.  Those are indeed problems one would face if the mawashi-geri is executed as IN ISOLATION.  It's no different from chambering the opposite arm to your hip when you are punching.  That's a rather stupid thing to do at face value, right, since you are likewise opening yourself up for attack?  

Of course the reality is that the chambering hand is really pulling and grabbing which makes a lot more sense in application.  Same with the 'wide open' kick.  In Goju-ryu karate you would never just straight up throw mawashi-geri to a foe directly to your front.  It's low percentage and opens you up for attack as you observed, Bill.  However the circular motion you learn by kicking like this is useful in conjunction with tai sabaki.  The swinging hip motion is one exaggerated way of practicing circling to avoid an on-rushing, and yes the kick is there after you have learned to 1) get off line 2) guard your centerline during the transitional movement.


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## Blade96 (Mar 24, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> You can do it either way.  The front kick chamber version is faster, albeit weaker.  I prefer the bigger motion in the second method since it lets you swing the hip into the kick more.
> 
> Which is correct in your style?  Ask the chief instructor since he decides.  For what it's worth, the front kick chamber version seems to be more common in schools that spar in tournaments a lot.  You can also consult the classical Shotokan books.  Dynamic Karate by Matayoshi Nakayama, a direct student of Gichin Funakoshi, shows the bigger parallel chamber on page 139.  *Seems to me the second method is more 'traditional'.*



then it stands to reason my sandan would say the second one cause he is older both in years and in rank.

Just wondered if a karateka could protect their crotch if they went with the traditional method instead of the raise your leg in front method? Just thinking out loud.....

also cause i'm of the belt level where I can spar now. Next tournament, I'm going to. they let yellow belts and up spar but not white belts, for obvious reasons.


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## dancingalone (Mar 24, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Just wondered if a karateka could protect their crotch if they went with the traditional method instead of the raise your leg in front method? Just thinking out loud.....



Of course one could, given sufficient practice.  

Regardless I think we all sometimes get caught up in thinking that what typically happens in sparring (two guys in a kickfest) is the same fighting lessons as what a traditional karate system should be imparting.  The real answer is that you would never employ mawashi-geri in a fighting situation where worrying about covering your groin is a real concern.  Evade & protect yourself, place your foe at disadvantage, and THEN use mawashi-geri if you must.  The best karate-ka can do all those three at the same time seamlessly.


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## Blade96 (Mar 24, 2010)

Thanks all :angel:

I will ask my sensei when i see him. 

But you did help me. so both my BB's are right. So I will ask my sensei which he likes us to learn and use.


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## seasoned (Mar 24, 2010)

Standing in a ready stance facing your target, your leg lifts, which facilitates the pivot of the supporting leg. As the heel of the supporting foot sets down, the kick lands. This is the hardest stance to practice from because it forces you to not just pivot, but to snap your hips around into position. The groin is exposed for a very short time, unless you leave the kick hanging. Once the leg draws back from the kick you can move in or back into a fighting stance. This kick is not taught in Okinawan GoJu, but is good for point sparring.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 24, 2010)

Believe it or not, this topic is mentioned on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawashi_geri

I found this video, it shows the knee out to the side:






By the way, that's a much higher kick than we do in Isshin-Ryu.

Here's a Shotokan video demo, which seems to show the knee coming up first in front:






This fellow also clearly brings the knee up in front first.  His is interesting because he's turning and opening up his hip before he even brings the knee up (which is how he's managing to bring the knee up straight in front before executing the kick):


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## punisher73 (Mar 24, 2010)

Practice both versions and find which version works better for you in what circumstances.

Some people prefer one version to another simply due to how their joints are and puts less strain on them.


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## repz (Mar 24, 2010)

The mae geri chamber that slips into a mawashi geri I used to use in both shotokan and now in kyokushin, and both instructors said it was wrong fundamentally, and i was told to chamber the leg to the side (horizonatly) for the mawashi geri. In kyokushin we do perform the mae geri chamber to mawashi geri kick as a fake, but not during kihon for the mawashi geri since it was considered improper technique for basics, similar to throwing a yoko geri chambered leg and shifting into a mae geri kick. 

In shotokan, I would imagine the horizontal chamber to the side and mawashi geri is the method most common, considering I was always corrected by my shotokan sensei for it, and theres countless videos and books that show this method. 

There is two ways to throw the mawashi geri. One, with the side obliques and snap back to fighting stance, and the full turn using the back muscles, in shotokan i learned a third one though, with the back turned away from the opponent and shooting out a back-kick (45 degree-ish) like mawashi geri. Then, finally, there is another one in kyokushin and I beliebve muay thia (since i first learned this from my kickboxing and san shou days), that shoots the rounhouse kick up, and slants it downwards at a 45 degree angle, which is used for kyokushin low kicks and high kicks. 

All this with one kick. I love to keep them guessing when you can shoot it out from any angle in your stance, and even in any angle once its in the air.


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## blindsage (Mar 24, 2010)

And a fifth, which is what some call the 45 degree kick. Instead of chambering in front or high on the side, it's comes up directly at a 45 degree angle. It doesn't really chamber. It's like the Muay Thai round kick, but at an upward angle instead of up-around-down. A lot of Kyokushin fighters use it without making a distinction betwen it and the Muay Thai roundhouse (you see a lot of knock-outs from this kick), but the mechanics are a little different. I think TKD fighters use it as well.


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## Nomad (Mar 24, 2010)

This is really, really simple.  When in doubt, the higher ranking senior is always right.  This holds true even when they're not.

So you should do it the way your sandan sensei says, unless and until he changes it.

There are multiple variations on many techniques, including mawashi geri.  The highest ranking senior gets to dictate his preferences to the class.  There may be a very good reason for him to teach one version at one particular time, and another (that contradicts the first) later on... just go with it.


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## Blade96 (Mar 24, 2010)

Nomad said:


> This is really, really simple.  When in doubt, the higher ranking senior is always right.  This holds true even when they're not.
> 
> So you should do it the way your sandan sensei says, unless and until he changes it.
> 
> There are multiple variations on many techniques, including mawashi geri.  The highest ranking senior gets to dictate his preferences to the class.  There may be a very good reason for him to teach one version at one particular time, and another (that contradicts the first) later on... just go with it.



Thanks. He isnt a sensei though, my sandan - he is sempai.  Our highest ranking senior BB student though is a yondan and he is also a sempai.

and yeah I'll ask my sensei though. I know he'll tell me.

btw I told carol that mawashi geri meant roundhouse kick. Then, I remembered from my 2 months of Kempo that they also do roundhouse kicks. I also remembered telling my sensei that some of the moves at least were the same in kempo and shotokan. For example we both have juji uke or X block. I had also told my sensei I had originally come from a kempo dojo. 

when i said some of the moves were the same, he's like 'No they're not!"

Of course this is coming from a guy who told me he never trained in any other styles but Shotokan, when I knew he was a student of Masami Tsuruoka, a Chito-ryu sensei. I joked with my sensei that he cant lie worth beans and see if he ever tells me another little white lie =] My sensei didnt know i knew Tsuruoka-sensei wasnt shotokan. we laughed about it It was funny 

I know my sensei will tell me which version of mawashi geri he prefers. He's a good guy. Full of horseradish at times  but a good guy and a heck of a shotokan teacher.

Thanks for all your help in my topic, peoples.


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## Cirdan (Mar 25, 2010)

We do it the second way. For beginners it is sometimes broken down similar to the first way since we can then isolate and empathise the hip movement.

Also in Wado we turn our suporting foot before kicking in order to prevent damage to the knee.

There are of course a lot of variations, sometimes we practice the 45 degree kick blindsage mentioned.


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## Haze (Mar 26, 2010)

This is not realy in the Goju curriculum but we use it in point sparring. I use it both ways depending on how my body is in relation to my opponent. If I was sideways to my opponent I would use leg up with my shin parallel to the floor (like a dog urinating on a fire hydrant) If I was more face on to my opponent I would start this kick like a front kick

Both are correct. It's up to your instructor and then in time,,,,,,,,,,,,it's up to you and what works best for you.


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## Blade96 (Mar 27, 2010)

ah ok So I asked my sensei tonight which method he prefers. Seems he and my Sandan are on the same page - he wants it done with leg sideways first like yoko geri.

Our BB's just wanted to show us - so I asked here just for clarification - but since the mawashi geri is not necessary to learn in order for me to get my orange belt, it doesn't look like I have to worry about it for a while =]

Again, thanks for all your help peoples. You're all angels. :angel:


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## Zero (Mar 28, 2010)

seasoned said:


> This kick is not taught in Okinawan GoJu, but is good for point sparring.


Seasoned, this is interesting and I note Haze states the same, I think. In my Okinawan goju club, we have always trained the high knee chambered front snap kick. I have only rarely competed in sport/point karate but this (coupled with alternating hook kick - same leg) is one of my most utilised kicks in full contact open karate tournaments and also kickboxing competitions. Our sensei, taught us this from pretty much day one.

We use it much like the jab, as granted, the other version described above, while slower and more telegraphed, when used in combinations and with timing is the more powerful for knockouts - much like traditional muay thai shin attack off back leg; it's the one you use when the opponent is set up or your timing is beautiful.

The great thing with the high knee front snap kick that comes straight up is that you can mix the same kicking leg with the hook kick to the other side of the head/jaw to catch opponent off guard.  If you want to risk keeping just one foot on the ground that bit longer you can do this without even dropping you leg (I used to train this a lot after watching it in movies but never tried it in competition(!)). Also the front kick is often hard to see coming when mixed in with punches and then stepping just out of punching range as it comes right up the centre line and then the foot or shin comes in from the side, beautiful kick....I know you know all this, more for the benefit of the others progressing so they don't just stick or revert solely to the "more traditional"(?) hip/pelvis swinging motion, which is not as fast.

Anyway, all I meant to say was that, we havedone this in our curriculum and my sensei would have used this circa 30 years (although I recal way back he did a training session with Bill Wallace), so maybe this is where this kick has come into our style if you feel this "ain't legit" Okinawan....
Best


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## Haze (Mar 28, 2010)

Zero,

Snap Front kick is taught in Goju, we were talking about the mawashi geri/round house kick, not found in traditional goju kata. If the kata holds the key elements of a style you would have to look at the kata and see what is deemed as the important concepts of the style. 

No hook, round house, axe, cresent kicks in traditional goju. 

These were all taught to me but not really part of the style.


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## 72ronin (Mar 28, 2010)

We bring it up at the side.

We have an ex tkd player in our group (shotokan) and he chambers in front of himself, its so easy to jam him up and send him flying backwards during sparring.

Besides, chambering to the side brings a lot more bodyweight into the kick and opens the hips for a better horizontal strike with the foot. 

Chambering in front of yourself produces a flick instead of a slam..

There used to be a saying, "kick as if you are lifting your leg over a chair to the side of you".

Bodyweight transfer is imperitive to produce an effective/powerful strike.

If your interest is point sparring then the flicky/tricky stuff is fine,  but for power etc you must train the trad way  

Enjoy your training Blade, and congrats once again for your recent grading.

Oss


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## Blade96 (Mar 28, 2010)

72ronin said:


> We bring it up at the side.
> 
> We have an ex tkd player in our group (shotokan) and he chambers in front of himself, its so easy to jam him up and send him flying backwards during sparring.
> 
> ...



Thanks so much 

Yeah, you and my sandan and sensei say the same - The side chamber.

btw I dont have a bag or mat or anything so I use the back of my computer chair - LOL my poor chair hehe

I must say, I cant pick a fave  kick cause I love them all. But for the here and now I'm into the steo forward on right leg spin to the right and kick backwards / ushiro geri combo w/left leg. 

Thanks for your help again my fellow Shotokanny friend.

Thanks for congrats on my grading as well.

Osu!


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## blindsage (Mar 29, 2010)

72ronin said:


> We bring it up at the side.
> 
> We have an ex tkd player in our group (shotokan) and he chambers in front of himself, its so easy to jam him up and send him flying backwards during sparring.
> 
> ...


Guess you've never seen what is now being called the "Brazilian" kick?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3RQNMrOgRY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si_xkVbDYf8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cNUkGhV2q4&feature=related


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## 72ronin (Mar 31, 2010)

Pfff, Ive been catching people in sparring with that kick for years, you set it up by throwing a few front kicks first. then change it up mid kick once theyre lulled into dropping the gaurd to intercept the front kick....
Who's the idiot that coined it the brazilian kick? its just a change-up front to round kick!! its been around for ages man.

Now use your you-tube jutsu to look at cro cops kick ko's for egsample, you'll notice they are what im saying..  This change-up kick is not gauranteed to KO nearly as much.. Why is that?..  Good for you, you just learnt something


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## 72ronin (Mar 31, 2010)

Seriously, Rick Roufus was doing this 20 something years ago? the list goes on and on, why the hell name the kick "brazilian Kick" ?

  Does brazilian gold shine brighter than USA gold or something lmao.  pfff, latest fad's, what can ya do


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## blindsage (Mar 31, 2010)

Did I offend you?

Of course a full round house is going to have more power, the only point I was trying to make was that a round-house that comes up in the front first can still have power, even knockout power.

It's being called the 'brazilian kick' these days because the use of the kick was popularized by a couple of Brazilian fighters in kickboxing and MMA competitions.  Yes, it's been around a long time, I learned it when I was training in Kyokushin 15 years ago.  Kyokushin fighters have been doing this kick since at least the '70's.


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## Zero (Mar 31, 2010)

Haze said:


> Zero,
> 
> Snap Front kick is taught in Goju, we were talking about the mawashi geri/round house kick, not found in traditional goju kata. If the kata holds the key elements of a style you would have to look at the kata and see what is deemed as the important concepts of the style.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Haze, yeah, I was also refering to the mawashi (with a snap motion from high chambered knee, and not the traditional front snap kick, ie foot coming straight out to opponent away from body, which I don't see as a conventional head strike, although can be used as such straight on.
Happy the hooks and axe kicks were taught to us though but if we agree with the kata holding the traditional style's elements, must have been on an extra-curricular basis!


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## Zero (Mar 31, 2010)

72ronin said:


> We bring it up at the side.
> 
> We have an ex tkd player in our group (shotokan) and he chambers in front of himself, its so easy to jam him up and send him flying backwards during sparring.
> 
> ...


 Ronin, I admit it is funny to see the kick, which has been around as long as any other, termed "brazilian" but I've heard this for a while now, and I don't really care. But I have never been jammed, honest, in years of fighting in using a front chamber (I was even doing this just before to see whether I was coming in from the side but pretty much knee comes straight up). If you mix this in with combos and your timing is fine I am puzzled why jamming, which can happen to any kick, would be occuring any more so for this; maybe your tkd guy needs to work on his timing or how he is working this kick in to his sparring?? Or maybe he is executing when too close in? I dunno.
Also, I admit it doesn't have the power of a more rotated approach, and even less than a back foot round house, but this kick is not just for sport/point fights. I have fought full contact for years and when you target the jaw and impact with the "knuckles" of your foot you either rock (good for set up) or KO someone.
Switching to the reverse, ie a hook kick to other side of head/jaw also produces knockout when heel of foot hooks into the back of the jaw bone.


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## 72ronin (Mar 31, 2010)

I appologise Blindsage, directing my comments at you was un-warranted, sorry mate.

What i will give the change-up kick is that it hits the target completely un-expected and rocks the opponent as Zero stated. And ofcourse as was shown, can effect knockout.

The jamming of the ex TKD player, i guess he has a leaning tendency aswell, i can read this well as he only doesnt lean with the front kick so i have become accustom to reading his movements somewhat.
Its not that he chambers slowly, just that he will lean aswell and theres a split second window there to shoot in and jam him up and throw a shot etc. I once sent him airborn a couple feet or so as his chambered leg acted like a spring lol.

I would say leaning back and chambering in front sets someone up to be taken down or jammed up and eat a shot too easily, with the chambering at the side and rotating the body through the kick we dont have to lean at all and are more ready to abbort the kick with balance and follow up techs etc For egsample check out how the so called "superman punch" is thrown.. with a side chamber of the right leg, which throws power due to body allignment up into the right hand, there really is nothing new under the sun..

With the follow up hook kick, ive found that they are out of range by then. Meaning if weve done a change up front to round and they have reacted in time, to go to hook from there is pointless in my experience.
However if you throw the said change up kick and retract before full extension on the round kick and go to hook kick immediately, then it can become effective.

Personaly, i would prefer 5th kyu's and under to prepare themselves with strong techniques and then they can bring in the tricky stuff after that. I should also mention that throwing many change up kicks has seemed to get at my right knee joint at times also, its quite a strain on the ligaments/tendons after some time.. Although i do carry a slight knee injury from football when i was younger.

Once again, I do appologise Blindsage,
cheers
72ronin


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## Blade96 (Apr 2, 2010)

well thanks again, people, was working on mawashi geri with a BB and he spent much of his time working on the other yellow belt because mawashi geri, frankly, I was doing better with it.

Had us step back with jodan age uke, then mawashi geri and backfist, then oi zuki - was fun


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## Blade96 (Apr 6, 2010)

Oh btw more about my mawashi geri

I sparred a little with my sandan friend this evening and he was teaching me some stuff and I caught him in the stomach but more on the side with a good one. He said laughing 'no way are you getting away with that' and he caught my next one I did and planted me on the floor so fast I took root 

needless to say I learned pretty fast to make my mawashi geri like a snap kick more but done sideways so I could pull my lower leg back pretty darn fast so he couldnt grab it (he didnt catch it after) =]

He said I'm getting better at it! :angel:

and you folks here at MT helped me. 

Cheers!

~ Blade ~


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## Zero (Apr 9, 2010)

Blade, experience from sparring is a great way to learn and improve one's technique.
As you have figured, snapping back the kick (just like with a punch) is important to make sure you aren't grabbed/trapped and sweeped.

The other reason, again just like a jab that you don't leave hanging out there, is that snapping the kick back quickly generates dynamic power and speed (if you have obtained the balance, timing and experience/judgement) to execute another strike in succession.

Also on this, you should be executing all such kicks so you are in a positon to deliver a punch/thrust/palm strike if on execution of your kick your opponent has closed the gap and is in the process of trapping your leg for a sweep or is otherwise in range.  If you do get your leg cuaght again, and hey, happens to everyone from time to time, don't taker it and just get swept.  Appreicate control is required for sparring but you can (i) lean into your opponent and grab them back to prevent the sweep, (ii) if the sweep is on and you're going down, retain hold of them and execute a sacrifice throw to take your opponent down and over you (iii) punch them straight in the face with your lead fist if they are in this range and (iv) also use all your leg strength to downwards yank your leg out of their grasp.

Keep the flow alive at all times on all movements.

This is good for karate but also essential to get the hang of if you ever want to branch out or get into mma equivalents later.


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## Guliufa (Apr 20, 2010)

Haze said:


> Zero,
> 
> Snap Front kick is taught in Goju, we were talking about the mawashi geri/round house kick, not found in traditional goju kata. If the kata holds the key elements of a style you would have to look at the kata and see what is deemed as the important concepts of the style.
> 
> ...



Crescent Kick is in Suparinpai. 

But correct about the others. 

Goju Ryu teaches Front Kick - Mae Geri, Joint Stomping Kick - Kansetsu Geri and Crescent Kick - Mikazuki Geri.


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## Martin h (May 6, 2010)

Chambering to the side gives more power but is slower.
Chambering straight forward is faster but has less power.

Either version (or anything in-between) works if you hit, but more power lets you smash through a block.
chambering to the front has been developed more for point fighting.

The correct way is whichever way knocks your opponent down/out.




Anything else is just stylistic nitpicking.

and for a ridiculous good example of oldschool mawashi geri from shotokan:




(not exactly Is I would do it in kyokushin sparring, but still awesome)


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## Blade96 (May 8, 2010)

Ours definitely wants oldschool traditional mawashi geri. and that means chambering to the side.


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## shihansmurf (May 19, 2010)

I teach both versions. I teach the side chamber position to my begining students and switch to the front chamber for my more advanced students. I also use both chambers depending on the target I'm tyring to hit. I use the front chamber for kicks to inside targets like the groin, gut, and (on the rare occasion I go for it) the face. I use the side chamber to attack the legs and kidney. The extra speed is helpful on inside attacks and I like the extra power on the outside moves. Like anything else, its good to have extra tools in your kitbag.

Just my view
Mark


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## Blade96 (Jun 2, 2010)

My brown belt - the one i was messing around with with doing katas with our eyes closed - said when i was working on mawashi geri that some people actually fell learning this kick cause they'd kick too hard or spin too hard or too fast or something - and fall down. I didnt. She said she was amazed with how nicely I'm taking to this kick. She also saw how much I enjoy it!


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## Laus (Jun 11, 2010)

I've always seen it to the side, never to the front. The way I've been trained tells me that starting to the front would be ineffecient, because it would take that much longer to execute - I'm not sure why you would bother raising your knee to the front if you were going to move it to the side anyways - but if there's anything I've learned its that there is more than one right way to do pretty much everything, and that just happens to be the one I was taught.

From reading the above posts I can see why going straight to the side would not always be the best plan, and now that I think of it, it might make it easier to turn your leg over if your hips are tight. Also, raising the knee could be useful for training purposes as practice for a situation where you meant to execute a mae geri then for whatever reason wanted to switch to a mawashi.


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## Blade96 (Jun 13, 2010)

Laus said:


> Also, raising the knee could be useful for training purposes as practice for a situation where you meant to execute a mae geri then for whatever reason wanted to switch to a mawashi.



I've done that for fun - make people guess at what you are going to do. hehe.


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