# Switch or stay?



## 2000zac (Sep 26, 2016)

A few months ago I joined a kung-fu school teaching "nature fist style." The instructors are good and the classes are relatively fun but I'm concerned because I've only been learning forms,  they are interesting and of course look cool and unique but I don't feel like I'm any more capable of defending myself than when I started. We don't spar either,  the closest we got to doing that were choreographed techniques for a show and even then we used kickboxing. I wasn't bothered by this until my friend sent me a video of him sparring with someone and I thought to myself could i even hold my own in a friendly sparring match? Even if what I'm learning is legitimate kung-fu it doesn't seem like we are being taught how to use or apply it. I have actually seen people spar using kung-fu before (no not in movies, actual sparring). There is another place nearby that teaches taekwondo and I'm wondering if it would be better to join there because they do more training with bags and with sparring and it seems like I could get more out of their classes. Because of where I live I can't afford to be picky about what style I want to train in, but I want some sort of legitimate martial arts and combat experience and I honestly feel like I'm wasting my time and money at these classes. Any advice on this?


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## wingchun100 (Sep 26, 2016)

Try to bring this up with the head instructor. You are paying good money; you should get what you want out of the class.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 26, 2016)

2000zac said:


> A few months ago I joined a kung-fu school teaching "nature fist style."


 I've never heard of nature fist style.

I will say this much though.  You can't learn how to use kung fu without sparring.





To put Kung Fu in perspective.  You can't learn how to play tennis just by hitting a tennis ball against the wall. You can't learn how to play the piano just by looking and knowing the notes, you can't learn how to box, just by hitting a bag, you can't learn how to play basket ball just by bouncing the ball,  and you can't learn how to cook just by memorizing recipes.  All of these have the same thing in common.  You have to use the skills that you are training / learning during the activity that you are actually training to do.

It doesn't matter if your style isn't legit or not if you aren't taking your skills out for a "test drive" via sparring.


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## Buka (Sep 26, 2016)

Welcome to MartialTalk, zac.

Kind of simple, really, if you don't like what you're doing, try whatever else is available to you, then decide which one you're willing to spend a long road on.

While a couple of months might not be long enough to determine if an art suits you or provides what it is that you're looking for, you're obviously unhappy. Give the others a whirl, then go wherever it is that makes your heart sing, your brow sweat and your muscles ache.


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 26, 2016)

Bring it up with your instructor, also people put a bit too much into sparring, first of all, yes you must spar. You do not have to spar all of the time though, do you at least do drills with resistance? Those are probably more beneficial than sparring as you can do those more often than you can full contact sparring due to healing time and all. 

The key is resistance and contact. Without those you won't really know how to apply what you are learning at all. I would not leave right away, simply express your concerns with your instructor before you make any choice.


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## Headhunter (Sep 26, 2016)

Forget about other clubs or styles fir now.first answer this do you enjoy your training if the answer is yes then stay it doesn't matter about anything else I mean the taekwondo may be more sparring but you may not enjoy it as much. Plus dont think sparring is the be all and end all anyone can put on gloves and throw your hands at each other I can put gloves on my 5 year old grandkids and they can do that. I very rarely sparred through my entire fight career the best thing is pads to work on your combinations and your timing and drills sparring is fun but it's not necessary. Now days a lot of mma fighters are stopping sparring because they realise it's not as useful as they first thought


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## drop bear (Sep 26, 2016)

Headhunter said:


> Forget about other clubs or styles fir now.first answer this do you enjoy your training if the answer is yes then stay it doesn't matter about anything else I mean the taekwondo may be more sparring but you may not enjoy it as much. Plus dont think sparring is the be all and end all anyone can put on gloves and throw your hands at each other I can put gloves on my 5 year old grandkids and they can do that. I very rarely sparred through my entire fight career the best thing is pads to work on your combinations and your timing and drills sparring is fun but it's not necessary. Now days a lot of mma fighters are stopping sparring because they realise it's not as useful as they first thought



Would you feel comfortable entering a guy into his first MMA fight if he had never sparred before?


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## Dinkydoo (Sep 26, 2016)

What matters to you? 

If it's being able to use your martial art in a fight, then you need some kind of sparring. If you don't care about that and enjoy what you do, don't pay attention to what other people are doing and just continue to enjoy what you do because you love doing it.

I disagree with Headhunter even though it sounds like they have much more experience than myself. I can go from feeling like a badass, smashing pads and getting combos away clean to walking right into punches in a really short space of time! 

For me, sparring is great, but I need to keep reminding myself that I should be working on something specific more often than not. Otherwise I go up against someone quicker or with much longer reach and bam, I'm taking loads of shots and not learning again.


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## Tames D (Sep 26, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've never heard of nature fist style.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 26, 2016)

2000zac said:


> Any advice on this?


When I was 11, my brother in law taught me an open hand form and a pole form. One day I got into fight and I didn't know how to use my MA skill. I complained to my brother in law. He stopped teaching me any more forms. Instead, he forced me to drill "1 step 3 punches" for the next 3 years. IMO, that was the best investment that I had for my MA training.

If you want to learn how to fight, you should fight. Before you do that, you will need to have some tools in your toolbox. You don't need to have 100 tools. You may just need few good tools.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 26, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I was 11, my brother in law taught me an open hand form and a pole form. One day I got into fight and I didn't know how to use my MA skill. I complained to my brother in law. He stopped teaching me any more forms. Instead, he forced me to drill "1 step 3 punches" for the next 3 years. IMO, that was the best investment that I had for my MA training.
> 
> If you want to learn how to fight, you should fight. Before you do that, you will need to have some tools in your toolbox. You don't need to have 100 tools. You may just need few good tools.


What is the 1 step 3 punches drill? Is it 3 specific punches that you drilled over and over, or was it the concept of getting into distance (or responding to an attack) and landing at least 3 punches before finishing?


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## Tames D (Sep 26, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> What is the 1 step 3 punches drill? Is it 3 specific punches that you drilled over and over, or was it the concept of getting into distance (or responding to an attack) and landing at least 3 punches before finishing?


He may be referring to the Straight Blast.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 26, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> What is the 1 step 3 punches drill? Is it 3 specific punches that you drilled over and over, or was it the concept of getting into distance (or responding to an attack) and landing at least 3 punches before finishing?


It's 3 punches combo such as:

- jab, cross, jab,
- jab, cross, hook,
- jab, cross, uppercut,
- jab, hook, uppercut,
- hook, hook, hook,
- hook, uppercut, hook,
- uppercut, hook, hook,
- ...

Whether you may train it in 1 step, 2 steps, 3 steps, ... it doesn't matter. Some "running punch" may require 3 steps for just 1 punch.

It trains how to use the 1st punch to set up the 2nd punch, use the 2nd punch to set up the 3rd punch. IMO, this is the best way to train your punching skill.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 26, 2016)

Tames D said:


> He may be referring to the Straight Blast.


Okay, now what is the straight blast?


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## Tames D (Sep 26, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Okay, now what is the straight blast?


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## JR 137 (Sep 26, 2016)

You need to address your concerns with your instructor.  Many styles don't have students free-spar in the beginning.  Choreographed sparring, one steps, etc. are sparring.  They're designed to teach students how to move, block, kick, punch, targets, etc.  Usually once a student has shown proficiency and control in technique, the student is introduced to free-sparring.  The teacher needs to trust that you won't get hurt nor accidentally hurt your classmates.

I started out in a school that did bare knuckle free-sparring my first night.  I was a glorified punching bag for the senior students for a good half hour straight.  Needless to say, it wasn't productive to me at all.

As with everything, there's a balance.  Talk to your instructor.


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## Danny T (Sep 26, 2016)

Is the school teaching a martial art, self-defense, or fighting? They are quite different.
Many Kung Fu systems/styles take a long time to develop the attributes required for use in fighting.
Speak with your instructor about your concerns and as to what your goal/s are for training as well as the time frame.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 27, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Okay, now what is the straight blast?


This is the best "chain punches".


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## BuckerooBonzai (Sep 27, 2016)

Holy SMOKES!  Now THAT is a flurry of punches!


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## Headhunter (Sep 27, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Would you feel comfortable entering a guy into his first MMA fight if he had never sparred before?


Absolutely I've seen it plenty of times and the guys have won more than they've lost I never sparred before my first mma fight just pads and drills and I'd been out for about 3 years before that fight so I know it's not essential


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## drop bear (Sep 27, 2016)

Headhunter said:


> Absolutely I've seen it plenty of times and the guys have won more than they've lost I never sparred before my first mma fight just pads and drills and I'd been out for about 3 years before that fight so I know it's not essential



fair enough.


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## Headhunter (Sep 27, 2016)

drop bear said:


> fair enough.


I'm not saying sparring is useless because it's not its got its place but it's also something that you 100% must do or you won't be able to fight I mean look at street thugs they can fight people and I'm pretty sure they don't spar or even train so if even if you just did forms and shaddow boxing you'd still have advantage over them. To me sparrings a cardio thing that's the main benefit of It


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 27, 2016)

Headhunter said:


> I'm not saying sparring is useless because it's not its got its place but it's also something that you 100% must do or you won't be able to fight I mean look at street thugs they can fight people and I'm pretty sure they don't spar or even train so if even if you just did forms and shaddow boxing you'd still have advantage over them. To me sparrings a cardio thing that's the main benefit of It



I'm a little confused by your first sentence.  I am not sure what you are trying to say here, and in your previous post.  Is sparring a useful training training tool or not?  Or as you say, is cardio just cardio for you?


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## WaterGal (Sep 27, 2016)

Headhunter said:


> I'm not saying sparring is useless because it's not its got its place but it's also something that you 100% must do or you won't be able to fight I mean look at street thugs they can fight people and I'm pretty sure they don't spar or even train so if even if you just did forms and shaddow boxing you'd still have advantage over them. To me sparrings a cardio thing that's the main benefit of It



Some people ("street thugs", for example) are just more accustomed to violence than others, because of the environment they came from or their personality/morality or whatever.  And many people who aren't used to violence (and some who are) will panic and freeze up or make bad choices when someone goes to hit them or things don't go as they expect.  So I think sparring can be useful in helping people overcome that panic instinct.


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## Dong xiao hu (Sep 27, 2016)

The nature fist is from what I know of it is a complete TCMA. It has empty hand forms qi gong, weapons forms, two man forms body conditioning, and two man fight drills. It also includes free sparring. Just have to stick around long enough. It sometimes will depend on the instructor if your teacher likes to fight or has an eye for application you may get to it faster than a teacher who practices for other reasons.

Sent from my Z797C using Tapatalk


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## WaterGal (Sep 27, 2016)

2000zac said:


> A few months ago I joined a kung-fu school teaching "nature fist style." The instructors are good and the classes are relatively fun but I'm concerned because I've only been learning forms,  they are interesting and of course look cool and unique but I don't feel like I'm any more capable of defending myself than when I started. We don't spar either,  the closest we got to doing that were choreographed techniques for a show and even then we used kickboxing. I wasn't bothered by this until my friend sent me a video of him sparring with someone and I thought to myself could i even hold my own in a friendly sparring match? Even if what I'm learning is legitimate kung-fu it doesn't seem like we are being taught how to use or apply it. I have actually seen people spar using kung-fu before (no not in movies, actual sparring). There is another place nearby that teaches taekwondo and I'm wondering if it would be better to join there because they do more training with bags and with sparring and it seems like I could get more out of their classes. Because of where I live I can't afford to be picky about what style I want to train in, but I want some sort of legitimate martial arts and combat experience and I honestly feel like I'm wasting my time and money at these classes. Any advice on this?



If you're not getting what you're looking for out of your classes, it wouldn't hurt to go check out the other place.  But I'd also recommend talking to your instructor, as others have said.  Many martial arts teachers want students to wait until they have some degree of skill and control before they do free sparring, so it's possible that your teacher will have you spar later and is just holding off for now.  It's also possible that your teacher won't, I don't know. 

Does your friend go to the Taekwondo school?  If so, what does he/she say about the classes there?


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## Langenschwert (Sep 28, 2016)

If your only goal is to be able to "handle yourself" in a fistfight, then maybe boxing might be a better choice. Remember that Self Defence =/= Martial Arts. As a general rule, few TKD schools with teach you how to deal with a hypothetical "real fight" either. If that's your goal (and it doesn't have to be) then you need to be able to do some kind of boxing and some kind of wrestling in the broadest possible sense. Could be Judo and Muay Thai or BJJ and Bareknuckle boxing, or Catch Wrestling and modern boxing. Doesn't hurt to be have a few kicks in your arsenal either. That will do you just fine.

Or stay where you're at for the long haul. Ask what the progression is.


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## yak sao (Sep 28, 2016)

You've only been at it a few months. Perhaps the way they do things in this particular school/system requires laying a foundation through forms training before they turn you loose sparring each other.
Talk to your instructor and ask what you can expect in the months and years to come.
In the meantime, find some buddies who train at other schools and start doing a little sparring outside of class...you may even find some of your fellow classmates would be interested in this.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 28, 2016)

In my high school Kung Fu class, we didn't spar in the regular class. It didn't prevent us from sparring after the class was over and the teacher was gone (the class was 5pm - 7pm).

Besides sparring in a drawing circle, we even dodge tennis balls throwing when you stay in a circle. I believe not too many MA schools still train "how to dodge throwing rocks in street fight".







I'm the 5th one from the right in the front row (this picture was taken 54 years ago).


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## Midnight-shadow (Oct 1, 2016)

There is a big difference between learning a Martial Arts system and learning how to fight with it. It seems that your school is teaching you the system, but not necessarily how to fight. Is that a problem? Depends on your point of view and your goals. The only thing that would worry me is if the school claims to teach you how to fight but then only focuses on forms. That is a huge red flag to my mind and I would bring it up with your instructor. As others have said, just doing forms isn't going to make you a good fighter, and by claiming that it does puts you in a very dangerous situation. After all, if you get into a fight out on the street, full of confidence that you can defend yourself, and then start trying to do your forms, you will get seriously injured. That's not to say forms are useless, but in order to fight you need to know how to apply the techniques you are learning and have a chance to practice them in a controlled environment (i.e. sparring in class).

As to the style itself, I have never heard of it but looking at the video Tames D linked, it looks like a very generic southern Chinese Martial Art, nothing really that special. 






Looking at this video though, I'm a little concerned with the footwork, specifically crossing the legs over when very close to your opponent. This puts you in a very precarious position and makes you vulnerable to leg sweeps. Of course, this is just my opinion of what I see in this video, not on the style as a whole.


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