# Wanshu Kata Question?



## Muwubu16858 (Sep 20, 2008)

I am interested in figuring out which one is the Tomari Wanshu, and which is the Itosu Wanshu:

I know this is the Wanshu of Itosu-ryu and some Shito-ryu, so my guess is this is the Itosu no Wanshu as taught by Mabuni Sensei





 
And here is the more common Empi/Wanshu kata seen in most Karate styles that use the kata.





 
Is the Itosu Wanshu more closely related to the Tomari Wanshu, or is Empi closer to the Tomari Wanshu. 

It's known that Itosu learned Wanshu under his studies with Gusukuma of Tomari (according to Funakoshi Gichen Sensei in his book, which states that Azato continued the line of Matsumura, while Itosu followed the line of Gusukuma), but is the Itosu Wanshu only his reformulized version, or did Funakoshi pick up Wanshu from another Teacher of Tomari-Te?


----------



## twendkata71 (Sep 20, 2008)

Matsubayashi Shorin ryu teaches the tomari version of wanshu, and seibukan (sukinahayashi shorin ryu),shito ryu,etc. teaches the Itosu version of wanshu. I personally learned the shotokan version(empi), and the seidokan(toma)shorin ryu version, which are both from the Itosu version.  I used to know the Matsubayashi shorin ryu version, but no longer remember, I also used to know the Isshin ryu version, but again that was twenty three years ago and I no longer remember that version either, but I do know that it isquite different.


----------



## chinto (Sep 24, 2008)

the style i study is from the linage of Kyan, and is more Tamari then shuri based.  the empi has a bit more similarity to what we learn , namely  Wanshu...  but not a huge amount.  as far as I know our Wanshu is pure tamari.. i know our  passai and kusanku and chinto are all tamari.


----------



## twendkata71 (Sep 24, 2008)

That makes sense to me since, Nagamine was a student of Kyan and most of the Matsubayashi Shorin ryu kata are from the Tomari te lineage, some are shuri te because, Nagamine also studied with Aragaki and the kata from him seem to have the shuri influence.


----------



## Brandon Fisher (Sep 24, 2008)

My Wanshu is very close but not exactly like the Matsubayashi ryu Wanshu.  However Nitta Sensei taught us Wansu very much like this: 



 and this is Kyoshi Frank Williams version of Wansu that he learned from Kise Sensei.  However Nitta Sensei's is closer to this: 



 
Tim,
The kise version was filmed in the UMAA Hombu dojo at least one room of it.


----------



## TimoS (Sep 25, 2008)

twendkata71 said:


> Matsubayashi Shorin ryu teaches the tomari version of wanshu, and seibukan (sukinahayashi shorin ryu),shito ryu,etc. teaches the Itosu version of wanshu



Hmm, I need to check this, but if I remember correctly, our (Seibukan, that is) Wansu is not the Itosu version. How could it be, since we're not in Itosu lineage? After all, contrary to what is often thought, Kyan did not study karate under Itosu. 

Ah, found the information I was looking for



> *Wansu (Tomari-te)*
> *Maeda Pechin*
> Maeda Chiku taught this Tomari-te lineage kata to Chotoku Kyan. Wansu is rather short, but technically difficult kata, much different than Seisan or Ananku. It contains many techniques where block and counters are made simultaneously. Also Wansu contains its trademark hard technique, the effective use of kataguruma (fireman's carry) throw.


----------



## TimoS (Sep 25, 2008)

Brandon Fisher said:


> However Nitta Sensei's is closer to this:



Just a small note on that: that is almost, but not quite the way Wansu is performed nowadays. The difference is that now when the step is made, we don't perform the shutouke at the same time. From what I've been told, o-sensei Shimabukuro did it that way for a while mainly to emphasize the use of hips during the block


----------



## Brandon Fisher (Sep 25, 2008)

TimoS said:


> Just a small note on that: that is almost, but not quite the way Wansu is performed nowadays. The difference is that now when the step is made, we don't perform the shutouke at the same time. From what I've been told, o-sensei Shimabukuro did it that way for a while mainly to emphasize the use of hips during the block


 
Timo,
Thank you for that tidbit.


----------



## punisher73 (Sep 25, 2008)

twendkata71 said:


> Matsubayashi Shorin ryu teaches the tomari version of wanshu, and seibukan (sukinahayashi shorin ryu),shito ryu,etc. teaches the Itosu version of wanshu. I personally learned the shotokan version(empi), and the seidokan(toma)shorin ryu version, which are both from the Itosu version. I used to know the Matsubayashi shorin ryu version, but no longer remember, I also used to know the Isshin ryu version, but again that was twenty three years ago and I no longer remember that version either, but I do know that it isquite different.


 
Wansu was the first kata in Isshinryu that Tatsuo really changed.  When you look at the first three (Seisan, Seuichin, Naihanchi) they closely resemble the Goju/Shorin versions that they were derived from.  In Wansu, Tatsuo really put his own stamp on it and added sections to the kata.  So this is the reason why it sticks out as opposed to the other versions.


----------



## twendkata71 (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks for that info. I stand corrected.My confusion came from the fact that the Matsubayashi Shorin ryu looks totally different from the version I saw performed by seibukan.





TimoS said:


> Hmm, I need to check this, but if I remember correctly, our (Seibukan, that is) Wansu is not the Itosu version. How could it be, since we're not in Itosu lineage? After all, contrary to what is often thought, Kyan did not study karate under Itosu.
> 
> Ah, found the information I was looking for


----------



## TimoS (Sep 25, 2008)

twendkata71 said:


> Thanks for that info. I stand corrected.My confusion came from the fact that the Matsubayashi Shorin ryu looks totally different from the version I saw performed by seibukan.



That is probably because the Matsubayashi Wansu is from Matsumora. Kyan probably didn't teach it to Nagamine, or at least he didn't keep it.


----------



## twendkata71 (Sep 26, 2008)

that makes sense. I would think though that Nagamine would have learned wansu from Kyan seeing that it is a more basic kata, Perhaps the version Nagamine taught is from Aragaki, I don't think that Nagamine learned wansu from Motobu.


----------



## Jin Gang (Sep 26, 2008)

Nagamine learned wanshu from Kodatsu Iha, according to one source.  Iha was a student of Matsumora Kosaku and Oyadomari Koken.  Iha was teaching his high school karate group.


----------



## twendkata71 (Sep 26, 2008)

Thank you for the information. I thought of asking his son, Nagamine Takayoshi Soke, but I am not sure that he would know.


----------



## Victor Smith (Sep 27, 2008)

Here is an Okinawan Tomarite Wansu. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkFcqarMhGU&feature=related 

Somewhat different from those other Wansu.


----------



## Brandon Fisher (Sep 28, 2008)

Victor Smith said:


> Here is an Okinawan Tomarite Wansu.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkFcqarMhGU&feature=related
> 
> Somewhat different from those other Wansu.


The video has been removed.


----------



## Victor Smith (Sep 28, 2008)

Brandon,

More accurately it has been moved. Check out


----------



## Brandon Fisher (Sep 28, 2008)

Victor Smith said:


> Brandon,
> 
> More accurately it has been moved. Check out


Thanks!!  Interesting version I like the grabbing / pulling type movements.


----------



## twendkata71 (Sep 29, 2008)

Can't quite place what style that is, it is similar in dynamics to Ryuei ryu,T'oon ryu, or Ishimine ryu karate, with some Kojo ryu in there. If you can find out what style this is please let me know. It diffenitely does'nt look like any shorin ryu style I have seen.


----------



## TimoS (Sep 30, 2008)

twendkata71 said:


> If you can find out what style this is please let me know



I asked about that and my source identified it immediately as Gohakukai style. Here's a bit about them. Apparently this Wansu is the same lineage as Matsubayashi ryu Wansu, with some Goju ryu "flavours" added


----------



## twendkata71 (Sep 30, 2008)

this style (from what their website states) is more Goju ryu that, tomarite/shorin ryu influences.


----------



## TimoS (Sep 30, 2008)

twendkata71 said:


> this style (from what their website states) is more Goju ryu that, tomarite/shorin ryu influences.



Yes, e.g. their Wankan seems to me to have quite distinctive Goju flavour in it (although my experience with Goju ryu is limited to mainly Youtube ). The style's lineage goes like this: Matsumora - Nakasone Seiyu - Tokashiki Iken and both Nakasone and Tokashiki have practised Goju ryu, so to call this style Tomarite is a bit of a stretch.


----------



## twendkata71 (Oct 1, 2008)

That "wankan" looks like they peaced together bits from suparempei,shisochin,and some other kata.


----------



## TimoS (Oct 1, 2008)

twendkata71 said:


> That "wankan" looks like they peaced together bits from suparempei,shisochin,and some other kata.



I'm not familiar with Wankan myself, but my friends comment was that it looks like Wankan footwork, but all the actual techniques are from Goju


----------



## Todd (Oct 14, 2008)

twendkata71 said:


> this style (from what their website states) is more Goju ryu that, tomarite/shorin ryu influences.


Gohakukai teaches Tomari-te and Goju-ryu separately.  The founder, Tokashiki Iken, learned Tomari-te first, and after receiving a license to teach studied Goju-ryu.  Currently, students are taught Goju-ryu first, and begin learning Tomari-te after a year or two of training.


TimoS said:


> Yes, e.g. their Wankan seems to me to have quite distinctive Goju flavour in it (although my experience with Goju ryu is limited to mainly Youtube ). The style's lineage goes like this: Matsumora - Nakasone Seiyu - Tokashiki Iken and both Nakasone and Tokashiki have practised Goju ryu, so to call this style Tomarite is a bit of a stretch.


Nakasone did learn Tensho from Higa Seiko, who was his friend.  He was not, however, a Goju-ryu stylist.  Similarly, Tokashiki Iken was licensed to teach Tomari-te before he began his study of Goju-ryu.  The two styles are taught separately in his association.


----------



## Todd (Oct 14, 2008)

twendkata71 said:


> this style (from what their website states) is more Goju ryu that, tomarite/shorin ryu influences.


That is the website of the Tokai branch, located in Mie Prefecture, Japan.  It was developed by one of the students of the branch chief, and reflects his own understanding and ideas.  It may or may not coincide with the feelings at hombu dojo.


----------

