# The Lone Ninja



## ElfTengu (Sep 6, 2010)

Well I thought 'Kamui' was great, and is what all modern ninja movies should be like.

I haven't even bothered to watch Ninja Assassin yet, and that horrific offering starring Scott Adkins offends me so much I cringe whenever my gaze falls upon its spine in my DVD collection.

p.s. Tony Jaa claims ninjutsu as one of the main arts he studies, alongside Thai arts obviously, and a lot of that big fight scene in Warrior King will be familiar to taijutsu adepts, but does anyone know whom he studies his 'ninjutsu' with?


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## DuskB4Dawn (Oct 12, 2010)

kumui is a awesome movie. one of my favourite. didn't know tony jaa trained in ninjutsu. are you sure about that. it may be some other Thai martial art.


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## ElfTengu (Oct 13, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> didn't know tony jaa trained in ninjutsu. are you sure about that. it may be some other Thai martial art.


 
He stated it in a UK magazine interview, either 'Combat' or 'Martial Arts Illustrated' fairly recently.

I have registed a question regarding this on his fansite's forum, but no response yet. I doubt if we'll ever find out, but if you look at the big fight sequence in Warrior King, there is a lot there that looks like a choreographed version of taijutsu.


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## Bruno@MT (Oct 14, 2010)

ElfTengu said:


> He stated it in a UK magazine interview, either 'Combat' or 'Martial Arts Illustrated' fairly recently.
> 
> I have registed a question regarding this on his fansite's forum, but no response yet. I doubt if we'll ever find out, but if you look at the big fight sequence in Warrior King, there is a lot there that looks like a choreographed version of taijutsu.



I was pleasantly surprised.
A lot of that actually did look like taijutsu. So nice to see choregraphed fighting without the boring high kicks.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Oct 14, 2010)

i loved the michael jackson background music lol
yes it looks very ninjutsu. alot of kappo jutsu bone breaking and some preasure strikes and less punching and kicks. it could be the traditional thai martial art that mwai thai originally came from . it is more brutal than mwai thai and has alot of those bone breaking moves. i forgot what its called.

on the subject of ong bak have you seen the movie chocolate? it is my favourite out of all the ong baks


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## Tanaka (Oct 14, 2010)

By the looks of that video. Someone needs to be hiring new henchmen


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## Chris Parker (Oct 14, 2010)

Hmm. At about 3:46 there's a few actions that are similar to some techniques found within Taijutsu (as well as numerous other systems), but it was really nothing like what I would describe as Taijutsu. The body movement was not Taijutsu, the use of the spine is not the same, the footwork is not the same, the angling is not the same, and so on. So other than a kinda-Oni Kudaki looking thing (a little more similar to some Aikido movement in the way it was done, but without the flow there as well), and maybe two or three more things, there was nothing like Taijutsu I saw. And that part was only really very superficially similar.

Oh, and DuskB4Dawn, not really sure what you're seeing there. The "bone- breaking" aspects in this clip are simply hyper-extentions, and are not what is found in Koppojutsu, really. It looked nothing like Ninjutsu when you get down to it.


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## Indagator (Oct 14, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> i loved the michael jackson background music lol
> yes it looks very ninjutsu. alot of kappo jutsu bone breaking and some preasure strikes and less punching and kicks. it could be the traditional thai martial art that mwai thai originally came from . it is more brutal than mwai thai and has alot of those bone breaking moves. i forgot what its called.


 
Are you referring to Muay Boran? I believe that much of the fight choreography in Ong Bak and Tom Yum Goong are closer to Muay Boran than Muay Thai, although I could be mistaken.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Oct 14, 2010)

oh yeah. Muay Boran. thats what its called. 
sorry for my terrible spelling. i actully spelled muay thai, mwai thai 
for someone who is half thai i should be ashamed.

thanks mr parker. i actually thought hypertension was kappojutsu but that would be joint breaking actually. when you watch it in the full movie the sound affects are really overdone. it can be misleading.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 15, 2010)

Koppojutsu was badly translated back in the day as "bone breaking", but that really isn't what it means at all. The characters used to write the term are literally "Bone" (kotsu), and "Method" (Ho), when combined they make the word "Koppo", and implies a number of things, such as attacking the solid structures of the body, using your bones to attack the opponent, attacking the structure of their movement, and many other things.

The technical characteristics change from Ryu to Ryu, with the most well known being that found in the Koto Ryu, although the Togakure Ryu has had it's Taijutsu refered to as a form of Koppojutsu as well, and has as part of it's characteristics a prevalence of striking over grappling, strikes being applied at 90 degrees to the target, and more. But the "over extension" of a joint just isn't Koppojutsu.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Oct 16, 2010)

the hoppo jutsu i just one methods in ninjutsu.
the other is preasure point and grappling right.
but hoppo jutsu has more strikes 
it would be like breaking wood with your fist? 
in a 90 degree angle. 
doesn't koga ryu ninjutsu use these technique alot?


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## Chris Parker (Oct 16, 2010)

Hmm, not really. Koppojutsu is more realistically one classification of a skill set within the Ninjutsu-related traditions. There is a fair amount of cross-over between skills from different Ryu, and different Ryu using the same terminology could mean completely different things (for instance, there is a group in Japan who teach what they call Koppojutsu, and it's based mainly on knife fighting, and there is a form of Japanese ProWrestling known as Koppo as well). In very vague, broad terms, Koppojutsu is often used to refer to striking against the bone structure, Kosshijutsu is often used to mean striking or attacking the weaker, softer parts of the body (organs etc), often with the tips of the fingers and thumbs, Dakentaijutsu as a broad term to mean striking actions, Jutaijutsu to refer to grappling skills, Taihenjutsu to refer to rolling and falling skills, and so on. However, each of these terms can be used differently depending on the Ryu in question, for example Gyokko Ryu uses the term Taihenjutsu in it's description of it's fundamental sword evasion skills, which does include some rolling, but that's not the emphasis.

It's really not like "breaking wood with your fist", that's just breaking wood with your fists. The only thing it's like, really, is Koppojutsu, and the way to understand that is to experience it. Oh, and if you can find an authentic form of Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, you're doing better than people who have been searching for decades, but feel free to ask them.


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## ElfTengu (Oct 17, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. At about 3:46 there's a few actions that are similar to some techniques found within Taijutsu (as well as numerous other systems), but it was really nothing like what I would describe as Taijutsu. The body movement was not Taijutsu, the use of the spine is not the same, the footwork is not the same, the angling is not the same, and so on. So other than a kinda-Oni Kudaki looking thing (a little more similar to some Aikido movement in the way it was done, but without the flow there as well), and maybe two or three more things, there was nothing like Taijutsu I saw. And that part was only really very superficially similar.
> 
> Oh, and DuskB4Dawn, not really sure what you're seeing there. The "bone- breaking" aspects in this clip are simply hyper-extentions, and are not what is found in Koppojutsu, really. It looked nothing like Ninjutsu when you get down to it.


 
To reword things for the ever-pedantic (but still highly esteemed by myself) Mr Parker, I guess that a better way of putting it is that if someone looked at a random selection of X-kan taijutsu, but was not trained in it themselves, and was looking for 'new moves' to be choreographed into a movie scene (and Mr Jaa's movies have been a breath of fresh air in the genre), then this scene is a likely result. Of course it would be superficial, and of course all the points about posture etc are difficult to argue against, but on the other hand I could pedantically find you literally hundreds of clips from a youtube search on Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu that are even further removed from this excerpt from a movie, and this is without even looking to Robert Bussey!

I don't think/feel that Aikido was the source for this material as the overt movements of aiki styles would not have escaped the choreography, whereas the subleties of taijutsu could be very easily overlooked, concentrating instead on the gist of the outcome of applying certain 'techniques'.

Having said this, I saw nothing much taijutsu-esque in Onk Bak 2 (The Beginning) so I could be wrong, or they might have felt that they got all they needed from our system for Warrior King.

They obviously never saw this theatrical outpouring from our best:


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## Indagator (Oct 17, 2010)

Ah, now I know why I'd never heard of Warrior King - I looked it up and found that it is the same film as Tom Yum Goong and The Protector, just released under different titles for different countries.

Lol. 

Good film. Hasn't Tony Jaa gone and become some kind of cloistered Buddhist monk or something now, though?


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## Chris Parker (Oct 18, 2010)

Pedantic? Yeah, can't really argue with that....

My point is more that the technical aspects (grappling rather than striking) don't really make it Taijutsu, as the way they are done is the very similar, if not the same, as many other grappling systems. The Oni-Kudaki type maneouvre, for instance, was closer to Aikido's methods than Taijutsu's, mainly in the angle of the elbow of the reciever (Taijutsu goes for a 90 degree angle, or slightly greater, with the forearm being used as a "lever" on the shoulder, whereas the Aikido variant is more taking the wrist straight back over the shoulder, and is closer to the way it's performed in the clip). I agree that Aikido isn't the source, just pointing out that the technical aspects are not necessarily (or definitively) Taijutsu. In fact, I would say that it is just a creative theatrical expression or demonstration of standard joint locking techniques found in pretty much all grappling systems, taken to a graphic extreme for entertainment points. Nothing I saw would lead me to believe that Taijutsu had anything to do with this clip, or Tony Jaa's training background.

Oh, and are we absolutely sure he didn't just say he studies "Thai-jutsu", and was misquoted? (Okay, bad line, but I'm disappointed that no-one did it first.... really, you gyus are slipping....)


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## ElfTengu (Oct 18, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and are we absolutely sure he didn't just say he studies "Thai-jutsu", and was misquoted? (Okay, bad line, but I'm disappointed that no-one did it first.... really, you gyus are slipping....)


 
I'm not sure if it was Scott Morris or Steve Jennum fighting, but I'm sure a UFC commentator was saying that taijutsu was a mixture of Thai Boxing and Jiu Jitsu, and I remember shuddering as I imagined a gazillion viewers retaining said statement as fact. 

And no, it was ninjutsu, but as we know, in this day and age it can mean anything, and not necessarily anything to do with what we do.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 18, 2010)

Ha, I remember that.... I think it was Steve Jennum, when he made his first appearance as an alternate, I don't think the commentators expected him to be called in, so kinda grasped at straws. Not a good moment for the public perception of the art, really, but a fairly revealing one.

Sho Kosugi also claimed to have trained in a number of "schools of Ninjutsu" back in the day, Bob posted a video of an interview with him talking about the historical side of things. Again, not a good moment for the public awareness and education....


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## ElfTengu (Oct 18, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, I remember that.... I think it was Steve Jennum, when he made his first appearance as an alternate, I don't think the commentators expected him to be called in, so kinda grasped at straws. Not a good moment for the public perception of the art, really, but a fairly revealing one.


 
At least Jennum won that one. The next time I saw him fight was against Marco Ruas in a Vale Tudo fight on a video entitled 'Brutal Combat'.

Outclassed does not even come close to describing it. And no amount of eye gouging or even wearing shuko would have been a leveller on that occasion. 



Chris Parker said:


> Sho Kosugi also claimed to have trained in a number of "schools of Ninjutsu" back in the day, Bob posted a video of an interview with him talking about the historical side of things. Again, not a good moment for the public awareness and education....


 
Yes, I remember photo sequences with gigantic hooked hand claws but clearly karate (Shorin Ryu?) posturing.

But we all had those three classic posters on our bedroom wall, the confusing one where shuko were called tekagi, and the two sword flying sidekick which was obviously taken with him balanced on a chair, which I replicated perfectly using the same props. Those posters even appeared in a movie called Dreamscape, is anyone old enough to remember that?


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## DuskB4Dawn (Oct 18, 2010)

the taijutsu moves could of come from anywhere.

I thought koppojutsu look like this but koppojutsu must focus more on stikes and Kosshijutsu would be different fist to strike soft vital target. these are part of Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu would be the grapling side. in the movie I can see alot more Jutaijutsu than Dakentaijutsu.
I guess you could say taijutsu could look like any kind of unarmed martial art since taijutsu is such a lose term for any style of fighting.
my point is it doesn't need to be a japanese martial art to be considered taijutsu.


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## Steve (Oct 18, 2010)

Where do you guys find this movie?  I understand that most of you are overseas, but Is it available in the USA?


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## ElfTengu (Oct 18, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Where do you guys find this movie? I understand that most of you are overseas, but Is it available in the USA?


 
Which one? Kamui or Warrior King?

They should both be on Amazon, but perhaps have different names in the US?


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## Kajowaraku (Oct 18, 2010)

He's probably koga-ryu Chris . 

*Vanishes in puff of smoke with lavish use of metaphors*

Seriously. If a cake looks like a car, i'm really not going to try to drive it home. Are there some similarities? Sure, if you don't take heed of the fact it would be very sloppy t(h)aijutsu. Also, what defines taijutsu is a rather rigid set of very specific concepts, motions and positions as transfered over the ages. something that looks like it is still quite able to resemble it closely while still completely and utterly missing the true underlying concept of the technique. Quite often, the truth of taijutsu lies hidden deep under the surface. Sometimes subtle, sometimes deviously cunning, but often hidden in countless repetitions and countless hours of keiko. So, even when a technique looks like oni kudaki, it is not neccessarily oni kudaki. It's not just the angle, it's where you go from there: a simple break or near utter devestation (yes, yes, i'm a bit lyrical about it, i just happen to love onikudaki) of the bones, joints, tendons and ligaments of the arm. Good taijutsu is often subtle in application only, the effects of proper execution can hardly be considered subtle. 

ah well.

a few cents for the discussion. I don't care much about movies anyway


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## Chris Parker (Oct 19, 2010)

A couple of things I'd like to go through here:



DuskB4Dawn said:


> the taijutsu moves could of come from anywhere.


 
No, they really couldn't. Taijutsu can only come from Taijutsu sources. We'll cover that in a bit.



DuskB4Dawn said:


> I thought koppojutsu look like this but koppojutsu must focus more on stikes and Kosshijutsu would be different fist to strike soft vital target.


 
That is a very generalised approach to Kosshijutsu, and really isn't that accurate. If you want to keep things real simple, though, "Kosshi" is made up of two characters, "Kotsu", meaning bone, and "Shi", meaning fingers. The idea is that you can use the smaller bones in your fingers (and toes) to attack a stronger enemy, but it also entails concepts such as understanding the small aspects (fingers) of the balance and power of the enemy (and yourself, the "bones" of the conflict) in order to succeed and survive.

In terms of Koppojutsu, if we are dealing with Koto Ryu as a template for an example of it, then it is far more striking than grappling, although there is some grappling within Koto as well. Then the other Koppojutsu systems, such as Gikan Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, and Kumogakure Ryu have a different expression of what they classify as "Koppojutsu", from what has been seen of them.

I'm going to make a guess here, though. From the indications in your profile and one or two prior posts, I am assuming you are one of my students? If I am right about who you are, you have only really experienced the beginning of Gyokko Ryu so far, we will be going through the entire Koto Ryu from January next year, so you will have a much greater understanding of the similarities and differences then. In the meantime, feel free to ask me any questions you may have. Oh, and while you're here, you may want to visit the Meet and Greet section to let people here know something about yourself.



DuskB4Dawn said:


> these are part of Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu would be the grapling side.


 
Again, these are rather general descriptions. They were popularised by Stephen Hayes when he first started writing about the art, and used the terms as general distinctions, although they aren't exactly that cut and dried. For example, Kukishinden Ryu uses the term "Dakentaijutsu" for it's unarmed syllabus, and there is a lot of grappling (throws and limb controls, mainly) in the system. The term Jutaijutsu is used by one of the forms of Shinden Fudo Ryu (the other uses the term Dakentaijutsu, and again is heavy on grappling over striking), which includes a healthy mix of both striking and grappling, as does Takagi Yoshin Ryu, which again uses the term Jutaijutsu. These days, such simple distinctions are not really that important to me. I tend to more focus on "Koto Ryu movement versus Gyokko Ryu movement", and just allow each system to dictate what it wants to do.



DuskB4Dawn said:


> in the movie I can see alot more Jutaijutsu than Dakentaijutsu.


 
Without it coming from a Japanese source art refered to, or classified as Jutaijutsu, then no you can't. What you can see is grappling maneouvres, most dominantly limb controls with some throws. But that does not make it Jutaijutsu.



DuskB4Dawn said:


> I guess you could say taijutsu could look like any kind of unarmed martial art since taijutsu is such a lose term for any style of fighting.


 
No, Taijutsu looks like Taijutsu. As Kajowaraku said, it is defined by it's own set of rules and structures. For that reason, you won't find head-high roundhouse kicks in Taijutsu, or spinning crescent kicks, axekicks, or anything of the like. It is not a loose term for any style of fighting, it is a specific term for specific methods.



DuskB4Dawn said:


> my point is it doesn't need to be a japanese martial art to be considered taijutsu.


 
Yes, it absolutely does. The very word itself is Japanese, implying Japanese concepts, Japanese cultural considerations, Japanese heritage, Japanese approaches to training, Japanese structure, and Japanese approaches to combat, which lend it certain physical aspects that seperate it out from Chinese arts, Korean arts, Filipino arts, and so on. For it to be Taijutsu it absolutely has to be Japanese.



ElfTengu said:


> But we all had those three classic posters on our bedroom wall, the confusing one where shuko were called tekagi, and the two sword flying sidekick which was obviously taken with him balanced on a chair, which I replicated perfectly using the same props. Those posters even appeared in a movie called Dreamscape, is anyone old enough to remember that?


 
Not to give him credence, but the words "Shuko" and "Tekagi" are really just different pronunciations of the same characters. The first character means "hand", and can be pronounced either "Shu", or "Te", and the second one means "hook", and can be prounced either "Ko", or "Kagi".


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## ElfTengu (Oct 19, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Not to give him credence, but the words "Shuko" and "Tekagi" are really just different pronunciations of the same characters. The first character means "hand", and can be pronounced either "Shu", or "Te", and the second one means "hook", and can be prounced either "Ko", or "Kagi".


 
Yes, I know, but it was confusing when one first got a copy of 'History and Tradition. I believe 'Hand Key' was another translation but I don't know if this is accurate.

Strangely, I felt similarly when I got Soke's 'Way of the Ninja' book and saw that what most of us have been calling 'ashiko' were called 'sokko' but I don't know if this is again a simple alternate way of pronouncing the kanji or if ashiko is actually wrong.

p.s. I think this also goes for neko te and a variety of other things.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 19, 2010)

Nup, again different pronunciations of the same character. "Soku", as in Soku Yaku, means "foot", and the same character is also pronounced "Ashi", as in Ashi Dori. There's a kata in Kukishinden Ryu which is named Ka Soku, or Shika Ashi, both meaning "the Deer's Foot", just pronounced differently.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Oct 19, 2010)

thankyou sensei parker for explaning that.
now I have a better understand of what is classified as taijutsu 
and the meanings of koppojutsu and Kosshijutsu. 
sounds like it varies a great deal between different ryu.

Im still learning all the basics so I dont know to much about ninjutsu. but Im starting to get the concepts. my idea of ninjutsu has certainly changed from when I first started learning. 
basicly I had to unlearn a ton of stuff from what I saw in movie and what real ninjutsu really is. still I would say I know alot more than most people on the subject.
or maybe I really am from koga ryu lol 

I will do the right thing and introduce myself in the  Meet and Greet.


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## Indagator (Oct 19, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Where do you guys find this movie? I understand that most of you are overseas, but Is it available in the USA?


 
I think it was released in the US under the title "The Protector" but your best bet would be to find a copy (or download one) of the original version titled "Tom Yum Goong" as the US and UK releases have had bits taken out.

Good film though.


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## Steve (Oct 19, 2010)

ElfTengu said:


> Which one? Kamui or Warrior King?
> 
> They should both be on Amazon, but perhaps have different names in the US?


Kamui.  I looked it up on Netflix and it wasn't yet available.  Just curious.  I'll check amazon.  Thanks!


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## DuskB4Dawn (Oct 20, 2010)

I brought Kamui. and all the ong baks from the asian market for about 12 dollers Australian each. Ive seen all these movies at jbhifi in the foreign dvd section for 3 times as much. If your fron US why dont you try amazon or you could try eastern eye website.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 1, 2010)

I have studies a little bit of Gyoku Ryu and supposedly it specializes in techniques that involve Kosshijutsu. I have seen some techniques use the thumb strike (Shitojutsu) but not alot. mostly it is more about countering and balance taking and take downs. there is a few Shitojutsu hand stikes in the Sanshin no gata.

I will start learning Koto Ryu next year that specialise in koppojutsu and focus more on striking and is shorter and straight to the point movements. 
it is said both schools complement each other. it is interesting that my school teaches Gyoku Ryu and then Koto Ryu. probley Gyoku Ryu first since many say it is the foundation of ninjutsu.

both these Ryu like to stay nice and close which feels unatural for me. I have a natural tendancy to keep distance and dart back and forwards with linier movements. closing in fast and than moving back fast. I once asked what ryu would suit me and was recommend kukishin ryu than koto ryu and I forgot what the other one was.


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## Steve (Nov 1, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> I brought Kamui. and all the ong baks from the asian market for about 12 dollers Australian each. Ive seen all these movies at jbhifi in the foreign dvd section for 3 times as much. If your fron US why dont you try amazon or you could try eastern eye website.


Buying from overseas is hit and miss.  Sometimes, they're fine, but you're just as likely to get a high quality, blu ray as you are an SVCD burned by a guy with an eyepatch and a parrot on his shoulder.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 1, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Buying from overseas is hit and miss.  Sometimes, they're fine, but you're just as likely to get a high quality, blu ray as you are an SVCD burned by a guy with an eyepatch and a parrot on his shoulder.



yeah you never know with bootlegs sometimes the quilty is perfect and sometimes its some dude that is holding a camera in the cinima and you can see heads bopping around during the movie. good thing is they are so cheap it doesn't matter. I have found some rare jems of old martial art movies this way.

I remember a long time ago when I lived in Vietnam you buy the movie pirated before they even came out on cinima. 

my copy of Kamui has good picture quility but the translation is so bad I cant understand a thing about the movie story. Im gonna buy the real dvd just so I can watch with the proper subtitles.


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## Steve (Nov 1, 2010)

I'd prefer not to buy pirated anything.  But that's just me.  One byproduct of the internet is a very cavalier attitude toward theft.  I know lots of good people who would never steal something from a store speak casually of stealing music or movies off of a usenet newsgroup or P2P.

And the chances of getting something that ISN'T pirated from an Asian source are slim to nil.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 2, 2010)

Hmm, a few things here.



DuskB4Dawn said:


> I have studies a little bit of Gyoku Ryu and supposedly it specializes in techniques that involve Kosshijutsu. I have seen some techniques use the thumb strike (Shitojutsu) but not alot. mostly it is more about countering and balance taking and take downs. there is a few Shitojutsu hand stikes in the Sanshin no gata.


 
Shitojutsu is not the use of a Shito ken, it is the earlier name for the unarmed tradition of Gyokko Ryu (changed to Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu by the 12th Soke, Sogyokkan Ritsushi, after the 10th Soke, Sakagami Taro Kunishige, founder of Koto Ryu, reformed the Ryu as Gyokko Ryu Shitojutsu from Gyokko Ryu Ninjutsu....). This is in the historical notes you got, by the way. You haven't done any Shitojutsu, as it isn't taught anymore, so you know.

Gyokko Ryu is about taking balance, yes. However, that is not the defining factor of Gyokko Ryu, the way it does that is what makes it a unique system. And that involves a particular approach to angling, footwork, moving the opponent in various directions (often changing instantaneously), attacking various targets, and so on.



DuskB4Dawn said:


> I will start learning Koto Ryu next year that specialise in koppojutsu and focus more on striking and is shorter and straight to the point movements.


 
Yes, we will be studying Koto Ryu for the first half of next year, however I wouldn't say that it "specialises in koppojutsu", as it doesn't. It teaches koppojutsu, and only koppojutsu. You'll see more of that from January.



DuskB4Dawn said:


> it is said both schools complement each other. it is interesting that my school teaches Gyoku Ryu and then Koto Ryu. probley Gyoku Ryu first since many say it is the foundation of ninjutsu.


 
The reason is simply because that is what I chose to do, so you know. That said, Koto Ryu was founded by the 10th Soke of Gyokko Ryu (Sakagami Taro Kunishige, as listed above), and there are stories of Gyokko Ryu practitioners training their techniques against Koto Ryu's attacking kata (the Chuden and Okuden Gata), and the two schools have been taught together for most of their existance. They are often considered "sister" schools. Add to that Gyokko Ryu being considered one of the foundations of the arts of the Bujinkan and related systems and organistations.



DuskB4Dawn said:


> both these Ryu like to stay nice and close which feels unatural for me. I have a natural tendancy to keep distance and dart back and forwards with linier movements. closing in fast and than moving back fast. I once asked what ryu would suit me and was recommend kukishin ryu than koto ryu and I forgot what the other one was.


 
Part of training is to get the student to expand their personalities, so by experiencing things that feel less "natural" to you, you are gaining experiences that you would not normally have gained. If all you did was what you were good at, or felt comfortable with, you wouldn't grow as a person or practitioner, would you? Oh, and Togakure Ryu features a lot of leaping in and out, so when we do that (after Koto Ryu), you'll probably enjoy that as well. Kukishinden follows that....


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 2, 2010)

thankyou Sensai Parker.
sounds like I have alot to look forward to next year.
I totally agree on the statement of expanding your personality.
you have mentioned in class about embracing new ways and
getting out of our comfort zones.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 2, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I'd prefer not to buy pirated anything.  But that's just me.  One byproduct of the internet is a very cavalier attitude toward theft.  I know lots of good people who would never steal something from a store speak casually of stealing music or movies off of a usenet newsgroup or P2P.
> 
> And the chances of getting something that ISN'T pirated from an Asian source are slim to nil.



I don't want to sidetrack this thread, While I agree that I wouldn't BUY anything pirtaed (because that does tend to be wrong) but I have argued the Piracy issue on numerous occasions with people who are totally anti-piracy and the best answer to the counterpoints I make is that "Well, um, thats just the way the law is so its illegal" but they cannot argue specifically why it's _wrong _or how it's theft to my counterpoint.  I'd be happy to dialog with you on this if you'd like, out of the thread of course so we don't hijack it.


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## Muawijhe (Nov 2, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> I don't want to sidetrack this thread, While I agree that I wouldn't BUY anything pirtaed (because that does tend to be wrong) but I have argued the Piracy issue on numerous occasions with people who are totally anti-piracy and the best answer to the counterpoints I make is that "Well, um, thats just the way the law is so its illegal" but they cannot argue specifically why it's _wrong _or how it's theft to my counterpoint. I'd be happy to dialog with you on this if you'd like, out of the thread of course so we don't hijack it.


 
For not wanting to hijack the thread either, I wouldn't mind being included in this discussion of pirating.

I have a counterpoint to "Well, um, that's just the way the law is so its illegal", but again, without wanting to hijack the film (and for need of more information as to your points), perhaps it would be best discussed elsewhere.


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## jks9199 (Nov 2, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> I don't want to sidetrack this thread, While I agree that I wouldn't BUY anything pirtaed (because that does tend to be wrong) but I have argued the Piracy issue on numerous occasions with people who are totally anti-piracy and the best answer to the counterpoints I make is that "Well, um, thats just the way the law is so its illegal" but they cannot argue specifically why it's _wrong _or how it's theft to my counterpoint.  I'd be happy to dialog with you on this if you'd like, out of the thread of course so we don't hijack it.





Muawijhe said:


> For not wanting to hijack the thread either, I wouldn't mind being included in this discussion of pirating.
> 
> I have a counterpoint to "Well, um, that's just the way the law is so its illegal", but again, without wanting to hijack the film (and for need of more information as to your points), perhaps it would be best discussed elsewhere.



Here you go: Music, video & other forms of piracy


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## ElfTengu (Nov 2, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> thankyou Sensai Parker.
> sounds like I have alot to look forward to next year.
> I totally agree on the statement of expanding your personality.
> you have mentioned in class about embracing new ways and
> getting out of our comfort zones.


 
I wouldn't get too hung up on the differences between ryuha at this stage, but let it all wash over you as 'generic' Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which as a fighting system is one art, not nine.

To analogise, if you have 5 spanners in one hand, 4 in the other, and are suddenly given a few seconds (if you are lucky) to undo a nut of unkwown dimensions, you will struggle to select the correct spanner in time, and even if you do select the correct spanner you will also struggle to use it whilst keeping hold of the others. But if you have an adjustable spanner you will be able to use it more than adequately for almost any nut. Appreciate the specific spanners for their purity and later on you can train with them as much as you do with your generic adjustable spanner at present, but for now just make sure you are okay with a monkey wrench.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 2, 2010)

The only issue with that is that I'm not teaching him Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu....

The breakup of the class at present includes Classical and Modern Unarmed Combat. The Classical is being taken one Ryu at a time, looking at only that Ryu. At the moment, it's Gyokko Ryu, with the others following. The Modern section is more the generic methods turned to fit the situation you find yourself in, but I teach the individual Ryu, not for self defence (as I don't think they should be thought of as being such) but as technically correct as possible. Hopefully after a few years DuskB4Dawn (and the other students) will be able to differentiate between the movements, methods, tactics, expressions, and technical makeup of each of the different Ryuha. Of course, at this point, he only has some experience in Gyokko Ryu, so such distinctions are a little way off for him (he will need the experience in the others first, at a minimum).


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## Cryozombie (Nov 3, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Here you go: Music, video & other forms of piracy



Im gonna be offline for a couple days, I'll write my points up and post them when I get back.  It will be interesting, I've never presented them as an "essay" but rather asked questions, then posed counterpoint to the answers so hopefully I can still get the ideas across.  I'm looking forward to hearing responses!


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 3, 2010)

ElfTengu said:


> To analogise, if you have 5 spanners in one hand, 4 in the other, and are suddenly given a few seconds (if you are lucky) to undo a nut of unkwown dimensions, you will struggle to select the correct spanner in time, and even if you do select the correct spanner you will also struggle to use it whilst keeping hold of the others. But if you have an adjustable spanner you will be able to use it more than adequately for almost any nut. Appreciate the specific spanners for their purity and later on you can train with them as much as you do with your generic adjustable spanner at present, but for now just make sure you are okay with a monkey wrench.



but sometimes an adjustable spanner does'nt work. it may be too loose and strip the bolt or does'nt fit in a tight spot. Im a mechanic by trade and never use adjustable spanners lol. adjustable spanners are for noobs  
but I get your point. its good to be well rounded and versetile. but if you have a really tough nut you may need a stronger spanner lol


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## Steve (Nov 3, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> I don't want to sidetrack this thread, While I agree that I wouldn't BUY anything pirtaed (because that does tend to be wrong) but I have argued the Piracy issue on numerous occasions with people who are totally anti-piracy and the best answer to the counterpoints I make is that "Well, um, thats just the way the law is so its illegal" but they cannot argue specifically why it's _wrong _or how it's theft to my counterpoint. I'd be happy to dialog with you on this if you'd like, out of the thread of course so we don't hijack it.


Okay.  I'd be happy to get into a philosophical discussion with you about intellectual property and such.  But realize that this would be completely beside the point that it is, at least in the USA, illegal.  I don't smoke weed because it's illegal, but heartily endorse any campaign to legalize it.


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## ElfTengu (Nov 3, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> The only issue with that is that I'm not teaching him Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu....


 
I should just clarify that I feel that what I said applies to any Takamatsuden organisation which teaches some or all of the nine 'named' ryuha,



Chris Parker said:


> The breakup of the class at present includes Classical and Modern Unarmed Combat. The Classical is being taken one Ryu at a time, looking at only that Ryu. At the moment, it's Gyokko Ryu, with the others following. The Modern section is more the generic methods turned to fit the situation you find yourself in, but I teach the individual Ryu, not for self defence (as I don't think they should be thought of as being such) but as technically correct as possible. Hopefully after a few years DuskB4Dawn (and the other students) will be able to differentiate between the movements, methods, tactics, expressions, and technical makeup of each of the different Ryuha. Of course, at this point, he only has some experience in Gyokko Ryu, so such distinctions are a little way off for him (he will need the experience in the others first, at a minimum).


 
Would you go so far as to call the Modern Unarmed Combat (dare I say it 'practical'?) 'Goshinjutsu'?

I really like this approach though, and have for some time planned to do something similar if I can sort out a training group at some point in the not too distant future.

What proportion of a typical class do you spend on each aspect?

At the end (or more pertinently the beginning) of the day, I would feel some obligation to equip students with some basic defensive skills in case they need the in the short term, and then as time goes by these rudimentary skills would improve as they improved their knowledge and ability of the original waza from the ryuha.


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## ElfTengu (Nov 3, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> but sometimes an adjustable spanner does'nt work. it may be too loose and strip the bolt or does'nt fit in a tight spot. Im a mechanic by trade and never use adjustable spanners lol. adjustable spanners are for noobs
> but I get your point. its good to be well rounded and versetile. but if you have a really tough nut you may need a stronger spanner lol


 
But an adjustable spanner has a much better chance than a completely wrong spanner.

And some adjustable spanners are much better than others, we should make sure we have the best quality tool we can.

And the nature of real situations is that yes the bolt or nut can get damaged but we have to do our best with what we've got in the time we are given to find a solution. The sudden real life need to loosen a nut will not offer the luxury of carefully selecting the 'perfect' tool, and this is really my point.

We should all consider ourselves noobs, even if we are decades into our training, but you could say that the better knowledge of specific spanners, the better chance of success with an adjustable one.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 3, 2010)

Hey ElfTengu,

Actually, Goshinjutsu is exactly the term I use (keeps the Japanese "flavour"). Each class is broken into three main sections, Traditional (Taijutsu, taken from the Densho. Since July I've been presenting each of the Ryu completely and without omission, and without influence from the other ones, starting with Gyokko Ryu, for 6 months at a time. Koto Ryu is next, then Togakure Ryu, then Kukishinden Ryu...), Buki (Weaponry, with Sword every three months, Hanbo every three months, and the other months filled in with Instructor's Choice. These can be Traditional [such as Kusari Fundo, Jo, Bo, Kodachi, Kunai etc], or more Modern [knife, baton, pistol defence etc]), and Goshinjutsu (Modern Self Defence - gross motor response, pressure tested and trained with adrenaline, with major topics including knife defence, groups, pre-emptive striking, verbal defusion, ground escape and defence, and topics we refer to as Fight Science, as well as many others). There is also, obviously, warm up and stretching, meditations, Sensory Training, and many other topics that get explored on occasion. Each class then ends with a Question/Answer and Feedback period.

In terms of how long is spent on each, honestly not enough! It's an hour and a half class, so typically between 20 and 30 minutes, depending on how the class is running. We then also have Special Workshops, in which we can take a deeper look at a topic, which realistically is the "other half" of the training.

Oh, and completely agreed on the spanner analogy, by the way.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 4, 2010)

I love the structure of the classes. although time is very short he fits alot into each class. I wish the classes were longer. I guess its up to us students to remember what was taught and practice at home to get the most out of it.

sensei parker. is it correct to say that the modern self defence teach armed as well as unarmed combat? I think you had a workshop on using your inviroment and improvised weapons for self defence when I first started in the telstra building but I didn't attend that one.

I think that whilst the traditional weapons and taijutsu is more a novelty, does'nt this kind of blend with the modern self defence? I mean to say can some of the traditional cross over and influence your movement and strategy in modern self defence?


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## Supra Vijai (Nov 4, 2010)

Just jumping into this now to add that while classes run for an hour and a half, a couple of us seem to have a tendancy to hold Sensei Parker back for an extended history lesson each week.... He always indulges us though so we mustn't be doing too badly 

DuskB4Dawn, as a fellow student (one who's been training for a tad longer than you have), trust me there is a LOT to learn. Take every assumption you have about everything you know about Ninjutsu and delete them from your memory. Stick only to concentrating on the topics/ryuha you are studying at present or have covered in the past and familiarise yourself with as much of it as you can. That's the only real way you're going to be able to make educated posts which are accurate and useful in context of the discussion. Also keep in mind that just because Sensei Parker goes through a particular ryuha for 6 months, doesn't mean you know the school. You barely scratch the surface. Every time you revisit the school in future, you will get something new out of it (hopefully!)


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## Supra Vijai (Nov 4, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> I think that whilst the traditional weapons and taijutsu is more a novelty, does'nt this kind of blend with the modern self defence? I mean to say can some of the traditional cross over and influence your movement and strategy in modern self defence?



That "novelty" forms the basis of the entire Goshinjutsu program. You will discover this as you keep training and learn to read the similarities between techniques etc, you will see a lot of our traditional elements in the modern. Basically a case of we are shaped by our history. We experience things, learn from them and adapt them to suit as times change. Our fight science strategy is the ultimate Ninja strategy to put it very simply. You take your opponent out of their area of strength, you find weaknesses and exploit them. You move off the primal line. Your street non postures are modern, non martial arty versions of the traditional kamae. Tanbo techniques translate to a mag light, a rolled up magazine or similar. Jo to a broom handle in emergencies etc


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## Chris Parker (Nov 4, 2010)

Yes, we've taught weaponry as Modern Self Defence, but the classes are more geared up for unarmed... as that is the more likely situation for you (you won't necessarily be carrying a knife, for instance). In fact, modern weaponry is more likely to be a weapons period rather than Goshinjutsu.

In terms of cross-over, the Traditional gives the strategies, tactics, and mechanics of the art. It teaches you how to generate force, how to angle etc. But those concepts have to be adjusted for a modern environment. For a simple example, a traditional grab-and-punch has the opponent stepping forward with the punch, leaving the same hand and foot forward. In a modern context, it is more likely that the punch will come from the rear hand, which leaves the punching foot back. This gives different targets, angling, reach, options, possible attacks, and so on. So to simply transfer the actions from traditional to a modern setting doesn't actually work.

There's obviously more, but that's a good start.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 7, 2010)

Supra Vijai said:


> That "novelty" forms the basis of the entire Goshinjutsu program. You will discover this as you keep training and learn to read the similarities between techniques etc, you will see a lot of our traditional elements in the modern. Basically a case of we are shaped by our history. We experience things, learn from them and adapt them to suit as times change. Our fight science strategy is the ultimate Ninja strategy to put it very simply. You take your opponent out of their area of strength, you find weaknesses and exploit them. You move off the primal line. Your street non postures are modern, non martial arty versions of the traditional kamae. Tanbo techniques translate to a mag light, a rolled up magazine or similar. Jo to a broom handle in emergencies etc


 
kudos to you Supra Vijai.
I like this post. it inspires me to learn more about ninjutsu


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## Supra Vijai (Nov 7, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn I pretty much just gave you the same answer that Sensei Parker did, it was just a coincidence that we happened to by typing our replies at the same time. If anything is inspiring you to study Ninjutsu and apply yourself to the art, it should be Sensei and the actual classes themselves not a post by a student on MT... cheers anyway though. Good luck with your training


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