# Bil Gee- Jabbing fingers through soda cans or something else?



## graychuan (Aug 7, 2008)

Im interested in everyones take on "darting fingers' and such. Any references to the Bil Gee form will be appreciated.
My take is that Bil Gee is a distraction mechanism for making opponents react to create bridge contact from a distance. Ive always rolled my eyes at the whole 'jab the finger through the soda can' thing because for one, the human body and skull are a lot more resiliant than an empty soda can. I applaud the concentration and skill of those who can annihilate aluminum but other than a 'rake' or 'flick' near the eyes, I just can't imagine any other practical use of a finger jab.

In our iron palm training we do a type of strike called 'dotting' when we strike with a relaxed clawlike hand posture and the tips of all fingers hit the chest or body but the palm is also settled and oftimes makes contact as well. 

Questions, comments , or insults welcome. :wink2:


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## profesormental (Aug 8, 2008)

Greetings.

Bil Jee sao is not only an offensive finger maneuver. Many people, including me, use it as a manipulation, a deflection, a block, an escape, etc. Your take is also correct.

The practice of Bil Jee sao on forms is not constrained to the Bil Jee form.

Many practitioners call the Bil Jee form the "Emergency" form. And many movements are used to regain the control of the attackers centerline. Yet I read that your post is more interested in the Bil Jee Sao itself.

I'm not an advocate of hurting innocent soda cans with a finger poke. The deserve a twist or a manly crush with an accompanying macho posture.

The appearance of Bil Jee sao in forms can also be the setup for pulling manipulations, among other things. The important thing is that you practice it, since it is a very handy tool in the Chi Sao and self defense arsenal.

In other words, the action of shooting your hands and fingers forwards palm down is more useful than many think.

Hope this helps. There is much more on this, yet more specific questions must be asked.

Juan M. Mercado


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## mook jong man (Aug 8, 2008)

I reckon it should be called the elbow striking form it seems to have more of that than anything else. 

Like the prof said i always remember hearing it called the emergency form too, Bil Gee seems to contradict the rules of Wing Chun in many ways , there are some situations where you have made a mistake and to get back on top you have to leave the constraints of the system ,do what you have to do then get back into the system.


As for thrusting fingers i prefer to use them on the throat because most people are taller than me and less chance of hitting skull . I really think there are deeper reasons to the Bil Gee than poking peoples eyes out you could teach that to people in five minutes. 

I think your theory about using it to get bridge contact on the forearms is a valid one. You think about it if you are a master thats been training for many decades you would have built up massive punching power why bother trying to go after a small target like the eye you should be able to kill them with your punch. 

I know it wouldn't matter where my late master hit me it would probably kill me or at the very least do serious damage.


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## qwksilver61 (Aug 8, 2008)

love the collapse bong whisk,and then follow up with chain....


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## graychuan (Aug 9, 2008)

It happens kind fast in this video but I do a Bui Sao here at about 50 seconds in. I use it to attack the outside of his elbow as he is punching with the right hand. We had done this '8 basic blocks' drill to get started then my partner was instructed to increase speed and put pressure on my bridging to see how I would maintain. I find it interesting that I eventually had to 'dart' and 'close' in order to maintain control even though we started with the basic 8. I believe there is a slow-mo breakdown after the realtime clip.
  Juan, do you apply the Bui Sao in any similar fashion?


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## profesormental (Aug 9, 2008)

Greetings.

Yes, I sometimes use Biu Sao in a similar fashion. Here is the thing.

To me, the movements on the forms are like an "Index" of movements (terminology from SL4 Kenpo; Dr. Ron Chapél).

When movements are indexed, they are familiar. Familiarity brings strength, stability, speed and power.

The bridge of the Biu Sao is really strong, and can be used to seek the bridge very effectively and efficiently. Also, once you form a bridge, since you have all that stability, you can initiate control procedures or destructive sequences.

Again, Yin/Yang in this control is important. It is hard to recieve/percieve while giving/hitting. Immediately after contact, recieve again.

It is important to note that the biu jee transitions to jut sao and bong sao naturally.

How can knowing that be useful?

Hope that helps.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado


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## profesormental (Aug 9, 2008)

P.S. I always enjoy the clips from the Silent Warrior/Woo Fai Ching Wing Chun people. Ali Rahim Si Fu should be proud of his students and accomplishments.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado


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## geezer (Aug 13, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> As for thrusting fingers i prefer to use them on the throat because most people are taller than me and less chance of hitting skull . I really think there are deeper reasons to the Bil Gee than poking peoples eyes out you could teach that to people in five minutes. quote]
> 
> In my lineage (WT) Biu Tze Sau has a variety of applications, as several people have already stated. However its striking target is usually the throat and it is delivered as a "Shat Geng Sau" or "throat-cutting hand". In this application, you strike using the outside edge of your hand and _not the finger tips_. Finger tip strikes may be applied to soft targets, but are very risky in a real combat situation. In practice we do not deliver Biu Tze to the eyes, as it is too easy to miss and injure your fingers by striking your opponent's forehead or skull....Just another perspective...


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 15, 2008)

Sadly, bil gee does work with regards to eye striking. That's all I want to say about that

With regards to other applications of bil gee, it is a very important bridging tool. many of my friends use it in BJJ to shoot whilst on the ground underneath a mount

If someone has grabbed your elbow (pinning your elbow) you can re-engage them by shooting the bil gee on the outside of their arm

As a distraction tool, it is very useful. Because it is very explosive it can make people think you are going to strike when in fact you are going to bridge. However, there is a major difference between bil gee and bil sao, which people seem to forget


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## BFL (Aug 15, 2008)

To ad further opinion, if you were to examine the "profile" of Bil Sau, it's a very small space needed to insert the Bil Sau. Simply -the finger tips which take up only about 1/2 inch by 3 inches, in other words you can use the Bil Sau to slip into very small openings (like a knife slicing in) and from there you can continue with Bil Sau if you want to or flow to a strike of some type.  As well it's excellent for sliding around/over a trap or lock or to regain center and cover/counter the attack......... the form itself is to show us there is more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak, and that not every situation can be addressed with strict technique/structure, sometimes you have to go past perfect structure and position and use whatcha got...... and just to add a note, I'm in charge of the coalition to stop cruelty to aluminum cans, hehehehe.  Have a great day to everyone out there in Wing Chun land.
Buzz


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## geezer (Aug 15, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Sadly, bil gee does work with regards to eye striking. That's all I want to say about that...


 
Why do you say _"sadly"? _In the dire circumstances under which you might be forced to use Biu Tze this way to save your life, you would come away saying "_Happily,_ it worked as an effective eye strike..." Really Kamon, you are sounding a bit morose lately. Cheer up!

As far as my earlier comment went, I maintain that Leung Ting and some others have insisted that it is not a good idea to try to drive your fingertips hard into an opponent's eyes as he may duck and you can end up busting them against his forehead. On the other hand I have had the experience of accidentally flicking my _relaxed_ fingers against an opponent's eyes, absolutely incapacitating him for a few moments (although, fortunately, doing no permanent harm). I also can vouch for the effectiveness of the "shat sau" application. I say great--whatever works.


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## mook jong man (Aug 15, 2008)

I forgot to mention the one i learned in illustrisimo which works great it is a flick with the back of the fingers to the eyes , like you are going to do a backfist but with your fingers .

 Its very fast and you can even do it chain style and a lot safer for your fingers , gives you a lot of reach too because in illustrisimo we fight extremely side on with a forward lean , or at least thats the plan .

 In the heat of battle i sometimes revert back to square on , old habits die hard eh .


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## geezer (Aug 16, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> I forgot to mention the one i learned in illustrisimo which works great it is a flick with the back of the fingers to the eyes , like you are going to do a backfist but with your fingers .
> 
> Its very fast and you can even do it chain style and a lot safer for your fingers...



That makes sense, especially in an FMA context where, as you pointed out, you are making a lot of use of off-lining or angling. However, if I ever had to confront an adept at Ilustrisimo, fingers would be last of my worries, especially if he had ahold of anything _sharp!_

Oh...wait, fingernails_ are_ sharp.


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## qwksilver61 (Aug 17, 2008)

I remember my Dei-sihing Steve brandon sticking me with his thumbs (that thrusting thumbs thingy at the beginning of Chum Kiu) just enough on the corners of my eyelids to make them sting for days.....(lmao)


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## Bodhisattva (Aug 17, 2008)

graychuan said:


> Im interested in everyones take on "darting fingers' and such. Any references to the Bil Gee form will be appreciated.
> My take is that Bil Gee is a distraction mechanism for making opponents react to create bridge contact from a distance. Ive always rolled my eyes at the whole 'jab the finger through the soda can' thing because for one, the human body and skull are a lot more resiliant than an empty soda can. I applaud the concentration and skill of those who can annihilate aluminum but other than a 'rake' or 'flick' near the eyes, I just can't imagine any other practical use of a finger jab.
> 
> In our iron palm training we do a type of strike called 'dotting' when we strike with a relaxed clawlike hand posture and the tips of all fingers hit the chest or body but the palm is also settled and oftimes makes contact as well.
> ...



Just work on your boxing.  As your ability to box improves, you will find your ability to finger jab improves as well.

Remember how interested Bruce was in boxing?


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## geezer (Aug 18, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> I remember my Dei-sihing Steve brandon sticking me with his thumbs (that thrusting thumbs thingy at the beginning of Chum Kiu) just enough on the corners of my eyelids to make them sting for days.....(lmao)


 
_Exactly._ If you were shooting for the eyes in the WT lineage, you would probably use "piercing arms" or "chuen sau" from chum kiu. When you strike, contact is made against the jaw or face with the angled palm and then rolls like a rocker, driving the thumb into your opponent's eye..a very nasty technique.


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 19, 2008)

geezer said:


> Why do you say _"sadly"? _In the dire circumstances under which you might be forced to use Biu Tze this way to save your life, you would come away saying "_Happily,_ it worked as an effective eye strike..." Really Kamon, you are sounding a bit morose lately. Cheer up!.


I say sadly because whilst an aggressor may have his own reasons for attacking you (lost his job/girlfriend, just a bit angry etc), you have to live with the consequences of blinding someone  
I am a heavy advocate of 'if they attack you, its their stupidity' and if they are coming at you with a knife or gun and you hurt them badly because of it, then great (they will hopefully learn a lesson). Yet, taking away someone's sight (or life) is a heavy thing to live with, no matter what the justification. It is one of the debates that I have still not really formed a definitive opinion on yet. There are valid arguments for both walking away from fights and for protecting friends etc



geezer said:


> As far as my earlier comment went, I maintain that Leung Ting and some others have insisted that it is not a good idea to try to drive your fingertips hard into an opponent's eyes as he may duck and you can end up busting them against his forehead. On the other hand I have had the experience of accidentally flicking my _relaxed_ fingers against an opponent's eyes, absolutely incapacitating him for a few moments (although, fortunately, doing no permanent harm). I also can vouch for the effectiveness of the "shat sau" application. I say great--whatever works.


The thing is that many schools see Bil Gee as a main attack. It should be seen as one tool of many. If the opportunity presents while fighting someone to use bil gee then fair enough. Saying that someone might move their head is a bit silly. I had a spar once and broke a black belts toe because they did a kick as I did a knee block. It was luck of the draw and 9.9 times out of 10 the black belt would have floored me with the kick.
In fights you never know what will happen and I have never had a situation where a person moving his head would cause problems
If you do worry about that, simply use muen gen sao to hold his head in place while you do it!


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## graychuan (Aug 28, 2008)

If you can do this then please be careful picking your nose...you may impale yourself. lol


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## Bodhisattva (Aug 28, 2008)

graychuan said:


> Im interested in everyones take on "darting fingers' and such. Any references to the Bil Gee form will be appreciated.
> My take is that Bil Gee is a distraction mechanism for making opponents react to create bridge contact from a distance. Ive always rolled my eyes at the whole 'jab the finger through the soda can' thing because for one, the human body and skull are a lot more resiliant than an empty soda can. I applaud the concentration and skill of those who can annihilate aluminum but other than a 'rake' or 'flick' near the eyes, I just can't imagine any other practical use of a finger jab.
> 
> In our iron palm training we do a type of strike called 'dotting' when we strike with a relaxed clawlike hand posture and the tips of all fingers hit the chest or body but the palm is also settled and oftimes makes contact as well.
> ...



I'd not bother with that stuff...


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## geezer (Aug 28, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> I'd not bother with that stuff...


 
...yes,  and that's because? Please to be finishing your thought, Sahib. Is it unecessary, impractical, a fraud, or ???


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 29, 2008)

geezer said:


> ...yes, and that's because? Please to be finishing your thought, Sahib. Is it unecessary, impractical, a fraud, or ???


 
Its just a gimmick. Like punching a person holding a telephone directory on their chest with a one inch punch

The point is that bil gee has its uses but its not a special move. Most martial art systems use similar strikes. In wing chun we employ it a little bit quicker and with more energy as part of our fighting. It is not exactly a Mortal Kombat finishing move (Down, Forward, Forward, Up - 'Fatality...'), but it can help with bridging, distrcting your opponent or in many cases causing serious damage to your attacker

But don't spend years concentrating on it - I'd ratrher be able to hit someone extremely hard than hope that my finger strike will work every time!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 6, 2008)

I think the best way to practice Bil Gee would be to get some swimming googles or Science Googles. An practice light sparring with Bil Gee applications. This way you get to practice aiming for the eyes. With out making contact. At the same time you practice entry techniques and defenses against your partner who is also trying to bil gee you. Are you could take turns. One person wears goggles(Defend only). The person with out the swimmers googles attacks an uses entry techniques to hit the eyes.

My Sifu shared with me there are other applications for Bil Gee other than Eyes and Throat. He told me it would take years for me to condition my hands to be able to develope thrusting fingers. But in actuality you should be able to develop iron fingers so you can actually do damage to your opponents nerves on his body and around his neck and chest and kidneys. I was taught Bil Gee was really good to strike the kidneys. But if your fingers aren't strong enough your just in for jammed fingers.

Ways of conditioning.

*Push ups on your fingers:*
Start with Ten a day to you progress to fifty
Then work your way up to One Hundred a day.
Once you can do a Hundred pretty easily and fast then try to do One thousand a day. Once you accomplish this your on your way.

*Thrusting fingers in Bucket:*
My Sifu told me start off with Rice. He said thrust your fingers through the rice each day for one hour. It should take you about a year to grind the rice completely down. Then move up to Gravel. Do that for a year. After that fill the bucket up with steel shots.

My Sifu said I should practice it with stabbing the rice with blade hands or snake fist and then grab the rice/steel shots,Squeeze the rice/steelshots then release it letting the rice/steelshots slide out of fingers into the bucket than stab the bucket of rice again an repeat this action over and over again. 

There is another inch power exercise you do with the rice as well. But I won't share that on this thread.

But I know this exercise has a name. Does anyone know what it is called when you fill a bucket up with rice and thrust your fingers through it?


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