# Organizational Advancement



## iron_ox (Feb 20, 2007)

Hello all,

A quick thought - I have noticed ever more increasing Hapkido organizations are headed by individuals that are not of high rank - eg 8th, 9th dan.  I am curious, for those in these organizations, how one advances the organization - not strictly the individual.

This is interesting to me because it appears that in the US, fewer and fewer small organizations are connected to senior Korean or American groups - so I was wondering if this hurts the credibility, or the ability of the organization to provide advancement, especially for senior members.

I have intentionally not mentioned any organizations, and am really interested in peoples perspective here - not an organizational bash.


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## matt.m (Feb 20, 2007)

Kevin,

It is interesting you ask the question.  From a Moo Sul Kwan perspective.....GM Hildebrand has a 7th dan tkd and 5th dan hkd.  Dad and Master Schutt are also 5th dans in hapkido.  

Our GGM had his 9th in TKD, HKD, and 5th in yudo......So our founding GM had the high rank.  It is my belief, zDom can correct me if I am wrong but we are in great standing with Gateway Moo Do Kwan, which is headed by 9th dan Bong Yul Shin and that's really all we care about.

Our focus is to just train, I have always been in the thinking of "Let your skill and credibility and character stand on its own."

So if you have a bunch of folks training and everyone is happy then it doesn't matter.   Everywhere I have been in MO. and IL. as well as TN. I found that Moo Sul Kwan is a well est. org.


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## iron_ox (Feb 20, 2007)

matt.m said:


> Kevin,
> 
> It is interesting you ask the question.  From a Moo Sul Kwan perspective.....GM Hildebrand has a 7th dan tkd and 5th dan hkd.  Dad and Master Schutt are also 5th dans in hapkido.
> 
> ...



Hello all,

Matt, I was really looking for more general ideas, but since you bring up the organization to which you belong, let me inquire further.

How does a person progress past 5th Dan in Hapkido?  (I know nothing of TKD) Do you have to rank through the other group?  And again, I am glad that everyone in happy training, but as a matter of progression, how does one progress, or is 5th Dan Hapkido as high as one is able to go?

In addition, are titles in the Moo Sul Kwan a matter of rank or position?

Thanks in advance, just looking to see how organizations make progression.


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## matt.m (Feb 20, 2007)

iron_ox said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Matt, I was really looking for more general ideas, but since you bring up the organization to which you belong, let me inquire further.
> 
> ...


 
Bold point 1.  No one goes out of the organization for higher rank, Master Hildebrand, Master Schutt and my dad, Master Morton have rock solid loyalty to Great Grandmaster Park's hapkido cirriculum.  It would be easy for the three of them to go to GGM Shin and continue.  Afterall, GGM Shin and GGM Park were life long friends.  We support Gateway Moo Do Kwan and vice versa.

So in essence we dont go outside of MSK.  No one does.  The only two exceptions of rank that are non MSK are my dan in judo and zDom's 2nd dan in TKD.  zDom is retired from Tae Kwon Do and I am retired from Judo.

In bold point 3, rank and title are one and the same.

5th and 6th dan are master, 7th and 8th are grandmaster.  9 is great grandmaster.


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## zDom (Feb 20, 2007)

iron_ox said:


> How does a person progress past 5th Dan in Hapkido?



This is a question I hope to see answered.

Presumably, GGM Shin might offer rank promotion without mandating we change our curriculum to honor the memory of his friend, GGM Park.

But then, I am presuming a lot  I really don't know.

FWIW, it doesn't matter to me. If I am stuck at 4th dan forever, so be it.

If rank was something I was interested in I suppose I would have stuck with taekwondo. I could be 3rd dan nearing a 4th dan promotion under the U.S. Chung Do Kwan with plenty of "room" for advancement, as GGM Ed Sell is the highest ranked non-Asian in the world.

But to answer your question:

Locally, MSK HKD has about as much respect as one could ever hope for. Too many people around here have tried us out (or remember Park) and know what we are about to disrespect our organization and system, although most decide MSK HKD "is not for them."  It is a very demanding art to train in.

Nationally and internationally? We are "nobodies"; orphans. Far too many 6th, 7th and 8th degree hapkido instructors out there to think much of a couple of 5th dans and their students.

And it seems the more time passes, the more people forget what a remarkable, exceptional martial artist Lee H. Park was.

There are Korean grandmasters who are alive today who knew him for what he was but seem to be more focused on promoting themselves than honoring his memory, which is a shame. He was _very_ well respected by his peers when he was alive.

Then again, Park never was into promoting himself on a national level even when he was alive so much as pushing his students to be the very best they could be. He was, however, president of the American Hapkido Association and a former chairman of the Board of Examiners of the American Hapkido Association.

I have taken the first steps in writing Park's biography and a history of his Moo Sul Kwan in the U.S. so he doesn't completely fade from memory. Hopefully the project will go well enough to acheive that goal.


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## matt.m (Feb 20, 2007)

zDom said:


> This is a question I hope to see answered.
> 
> Presumably, GGM Shin might offer rank promotion without mandating we change our curriculum to honor the memory of his friend, GGM Park.
> 
> ...


 

I am helping with this don't forget.  You know dad's last rank from Lee was 3rd dan.  He told me the day he got it that if he is a 3rd dan the day he dies he won't care.  I was there to watch the award on Main St. in Cape next to Brussard's.


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 20, 2007)

The following is a non-paid political announcement and does reflect the views of the management of this station......:lfao: 

The politics of an organization, or rather the standard procedure(s) regarding rank, as was explained to me many moons ago, was that an instructor could promote up to one rank below his. Now at such a time as the person/student becomes ready for the next advancement, the instructor (which in this case is the head of the organization) also advances to his/her next level/rank. This way the student will almost never become the same rank as the instructor. There may be a time when depending upon the ages of the individuals, that the student can eventually become the same rank (9th Dan) as the instructor, but the date of ranking will always seperate them. To be really honest, none of this really amounts to a hill of beans. We've all read/heard stories of Koreans instant ranks given to themselves when they decided to go and form their own organization(s). Turn about should be fair play one would assume. :shrug:


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## zDom (Feb 21, 2007)

zDom said:


> This is a question I hope to see answered.
> 
> Presumably, GGM Shin might offer rank promotion without mandating we change our curriculum to honor the memory of his friend, GGM Park.
> 
> But then, I am presuming a lot  I really don't know.



Just to clarify my comment above,

I would say that the above is something that I personally would be comfortable with in that I have all the respect in the world for GGM Shin and it is my understanding that Shin and Park were very close friends.

I have no idea what Shin's thoughts are in regards to the above, nor the thoughts of senior instructors in Moo Sul Kwan or Shin's Moo Do Kwan.

Another source of rank I would be comfortable with, assuming the organization was also OK with the idea of awarding rank without mandating a change in curriculum, would be the Korean Moosulkwan, as that is where Park received HIS instruction.

Any other source, well ... I'm just not sure I would feel comfortable with.

But whatever ends up happening, if it is alright with my instructor and my rank comes from him, it's fine by me.

I just wanted to point out that the above was PURELY speculation on MY part and does not reflect any intentions or expectations of my instructor or the Moo Sul Kwan.


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## zDom (Feb 21, 2007)

matt.m said:


> I am helping with this don't forget.  You know dad's last rank from Lee was 3rd dan.  He told me the day he got it that if he is a 3rd dan the day he dies he won't care.  I was there to watch the award on Main St. in Cape next to Brussard's.



Yep, I know. I'm still not clear on where his 4th & 5th dans came from. I hestitate to ask him because I know HE wasn't comfortable with accepting them because they didn't come from Park. Did they come from GGM Hildebrand? And what was Hildebrand's last HKD rank from Park?

Care to fill me in on this stuff, Matt? I like to know these things.

FWIW, your dad is a master in MY book purely based on his ability, dedicated training and martial arts knowledge. Long before martial art traditions had paper certification, etc., students would see a martial art instructor they wanted to learn from and would say, "Master: train me!"

But I also like to know who is signing whose certificate.


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## zDom (Feb 21, 2007)

Brad Dunne said:


> To be really honest, none of this really amounts to a hill of beans. We've all read/heard stories of Koreans instant ranks given to themselves when they decided to go and form their own organization(s). Turn about should be fair play one would assume. :shrug:



True enough, but then we at the MSK have also been held by GGM Park and hold ourselves since Park's death to a higher standard. Maybe too high, sometimes.


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## matt.m (Feb 21, 2007)

zDom said:


> Yep, I know. I'm still not clear on where his 4th & 5th dans came from. I hestitate to ask him because I know HE wasn't comfortable with accepting them because they didn't come from Park. Did they come from GGM Hildebrand? And what was Hildebrand's last HKD rank from Park?
> 
> Care to fill me in on this stuff, Matt? I like to know these things.
> 
> ...


 

GM Hildebrand had a 5th dan in hapkido from GGM Park, certified by "The Man" himself.  Dads cert's were signed by GM Hildebrand, Eui, and Master Schutt.

You know me man, I tell it like it is, was, and will be.  By the way when I talked to GM H. about "Crazy neighbor" he told me he got your e-mail.


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## matt.m (Feb 21, 2007)

zDom said:


> *True enough, but then we at the MSK have also been held by GGM Park and hold ourselves since Park's death to a higher standard. Maybe too high, sometimes*.


 
Holy crap is that true, remember how torn I was about accepting the dan in judo?  I mean I was a tested brown 2x by 2 different people, I have the 33 gold medals for dan level randori and even won the pan am games.  I still never did a physical test.  Mr. Evans told me to wear it when we worked out at home Saturday, he said "You know Judo frontwards, backwards and sideways."  "You earned and deserve that belt."

That is all the validation I need.


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