# How to Receive Traditional Martial Arts Training



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 8, 2017)

You might think that as a student, your obligation is to pay and attend training.  From a certain perspective, that is correct.  We pay for goods and services, and we receive them.  Other than our money, there is no obligation placed upon us when we purchase things.

You pay tuition for college, and you are allowed to attend classes. You can go or not go.  That is entirely your choice.  You can learn or not learn.  Also your choice.  Your payment allows you to attend and be graded on how well you have learned the material.

Some think of martial arts training in a similar way.  Perhaps it is for some schools or some styles of martial arts.  But not all.  As a student, it's a good idea to figure out which type of school you are planning to attend.

I saw this post on Facebook recently:

The Martial Way - Zōkin gake - Cleaning the floors  "A... | Facebook

It reminded me that in my dojo, the students are expected to clean the dojo after class.  Not to scrub and sanitize and make it spotless, but to do basic upkeep.  To vacuum, mop, empty the trash.  From time to time, students will grab the glass cleaner and clean the mirrors.  When required, some student will clean the bathroom.  Sensei is not above doing these things; in fact if the students fail to do them, Sensei will do them, and cheerfully, without a word of complaint on his part.  From time to time, he will physically take a mop or broom or vacuum cleaner from the hands of a student and cheerfully order them to go home, and he does the rest.  This is, of course, at his discretion.

However, the post I linked to reminded me that students are never taught or lectured or told to do these things.  They learn by example; by watching the other students pitch in and tidy up after class.  Most do...some do not.  No one is ever told they must do these things, no one is ordered to participate or even chastised for not doing them.  Voluntary means just that; no one has to do anything except pay their fees if they wish to attend training.

But this 'paying back' goes much further than just cleaning the floors and mirrors and emptying trash.  And it might be worth a moment of a new student's time to consider the following.

I am only a student. But it appears to me that students who do not pick up a broom or mop are noticed. It is understood that not everyone has the ability to do so, due to scheduling and other personal issues. But those who perpetually avoid putting in any effort are noted.

This does not just include cleaning the dojo. It includes being enthusiastic, being dedicated, showing perseverance, and doing one's best to follow the instruction given. Everyone advances at their own pace; there is never any negative judgment attached to learning slowly or having difficulty with a given technique or movement. What is noticed are negative traits such as a bad attitude, laziness, slovenliness, and lack of respect for the instructors, instruction, fellow students, equipment, and the dojo itself as an institution.

Every class, Sensei comes in and gives his all to the instruction. That is the respect he shows to his students. The students have an obligation to return that respect by giving their all to their training. Nothing superhuman is required; simply to do one's best.

Everyone has an off day. Everyone has times of injury or personal situations which can keep one from giving 100%. That is understood. What is not understood is a perpetual attitude of not caring enough to return the respect that is shown to each student.  I am not talking about students who have issues that prevent them from learning in a traditional way.  It is understood that people have different abilities, physically, mentally, and emotionally.

Traditional karate begins and ends with 'rei'. Rei is a Japanese word that means 'respect'. We use it to mean to bow to someone or something, but when we bow, it is a physical manifestation of the respect we should be feeling. In this, it is similar to the military salute. I have met some people in my life who said they would hate the military because they would not want to salute officers. What they fail to realize is that although the enlisted person is obligated to salute officers, the officer is equally obliged to return it; and all salute the flag of our nation. Respect works both ways, or it does not exist at all.

Think about that when you train. Many eyes are upon you, and everything is noticed, not just your martial arts abilities. A person may fail to advance, not because they are physically incapable of learning, but because they do not possess the correct attitude to be taught.

Unless a student's behavior is very disruptive, they probably will never be told that they are not being taught beyond the basics because they do not exhibit the attitude of a willing student.  So I leave this at your door, new student.  I would urge you to consider it.  One of the best attributes a student can possess is a willing and eager spirit to learn; and to give back as a sign of respect.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You might think that as a student, your obligation is to pay and attend training.  From a certain perspective, that is correct.  We pay for goods and services, and we receive them.  Other than our money, there is no obligation placed upon us when we purchase things.
> 
> You pay tuition for college, and you are allowed to attend classes. You can go or not go.  That is entirely your choice.  You can learn or not learn.  Also your choice.  Your payment allows you to attend and be graded on how well you have learned the material.
> 
> ...


Once again, well spoken, Bill!

As I was training my way up through the ranks at my primary instructor's dojo, I remember seeing the senior students doing some of the cleaning. It took a while for me to feel "at home" enough to start helping. I noticed where they'd get the glass cleaner for the mirrors, where they found the dust broom for sweeping the mats between classes, etc. And I started helping, because they were that model you spoke of. One day, a senior students (probably one of the brown belts) asked me if I had written down the dusting I just did. 

"Write it down?"

"Yes, on the clipboard. Come on, I'll show you."

And that's when I learned there was actually a list of cleaning tasks that folks could sign off on. It wasn't used to track people, rather to make sure 20 people didn't dust the dojo in one week, leaving the mopping undone. I had been doing some of those chores for a couple of years before I found out about the clipboard. When I got to brown belt, I found out why that student had helped me out - keeping up with what needed to be done was assigned to the brown belts as a group. Nobody was required to help clean up, but if that cleaning up wasn't done, brown belts didn't make it to black. So, it was in their best interest to let us see them doing that work and to make sure we signed off what we did, so the work got done on a regular basis.

Some folks seemed to feel put-upon for being asked by other students to help with the cleaning (I never heard the instructor mention it to anyone except the senior brown belt, whose role it was to make sure the brown belts understood the situation). I always figured it was part of the deal. I got so much out of the school, and this was a way to give back to my instructor and the other students. Little did I know until years later that it was also part of the training.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 8, 2017)

Some have asked questions on MT about testing, promotions, advancement, and receiving advanced training.

When do you test? 

The question isn't when do you test.  The question is, *when are you not being tested?*  I feel the eyes upon me every time I step into the dojo.

It's not a mystical 'inscrutable martial arts' thing.  It's a character thing.  It's a psychology thing.  Instructors have limited resources.  They can't be all things to all students, try as they might, as much as they might like to be.  So who gets the most advanced training?  Those that the instructor believes are most likely to be able to learn it.  And who is most likely to be able to absorb it?  Those who demonstrate perseverance, patience with themselves and others, respect of themselves and others, and a willingness to demonstrate humility and sacrifice.  It is not often that a stone supports crops.  So fertile soil gets watered, and stone does not.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 8, 2017)

In the aikido dojo I attended we cleaned before class. As the sempai, yeah I noticed who never showed up early enough to help out.
There is also the story of Suzuki Roshi who would yell at his senior students for certain things, even tho they did nothing wrong. He didn't want to admonish a lower student so he would yell at the seniors while the guilty party was around.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Some have asked questions on MT about testing, promotions, advancement, and receiving advanced training.
> 
> When do you test?
> 
> ...


I agree entirely. When I was a kyu-rank student, I looked at the testing as periodic and episodic. Now that I am an instructor, I see that I'm always evaluating students. I've considered actually doing away with formal tests, because they don't really provide me much useful data for determining promotions. I've kept them for two reasons: tradition within the art, and the stress it puts the student through (which is valuable for self-development and self-defense).

When I see a student doing a technique improperly (misunderstanding a principle, perhaps), my mind goes two places. First, I start figuring how to help them fix it. Second, I mentally calculate about how long it's probably going to be before I will consider them ready for the next rank.


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## jks9199 (Jan 8, 2017)

Excellent post and important points, Bill.  I'm feeling lazy, so I'm just linking to this for my take:
Piedmont Bando of Northern Virginia: How have you paid for your training?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 9, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Excellent post and important points, Bill.  I'm feeling lazy, so I'm just linking to this for my take:
> Piedmont Bando of Northern Virginia: How have you paid for your training?


Another well-stated take on the concept.


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## Paul_D (Jan 9, 2017)

Paying to train, and then helping to clean the dojo as well, is a like paying for a meal in a restaurant and then going into the kitchen to help wash the pots.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 9, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Paying to train, and then helping to clean the dojo as well, is a like paying for a meal in a restaurant and then going into the kitchen to help wash the pots.


No, it's like paying the rent, and also cleaning your apartment.


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## drop bear (Jan 9, 2017)

I don't like getting staph. So I mop.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 9, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Paying to train, and then helping to clean the dojo as well, is a like paying for a meal in a restaurant and then going into the kitchen to help wash the pots.





gpseymour said:


> No, it's like paying the rent, and also cleaning your apartment.



I think a lot depends on how the dojo is operated.

If the dojo is operated as a commercial business and the owner is making a living from it, then pushing tasks necessary for running that business onto paying students is kind of cheesy.

If the dojo is operated as more of a club with student dues just going to cover expenses, then it makes sense for students who want to help keep the club afloat to help out with such supplemental labor as they can provide.

Realistically, a lot of schools fall into a gray area between those two possibilities. They aren't officially set up to be non-profit, but they aren't pulling in enough money for the head instructor to make much of a full-time living. In that case, it comes down to the relationship between the instructor and the students and the level of community that has developed in the school.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think a lot depends on how the dojo is operated.
> 
> If the dojo is operated as a commercial business and the owner is making a living from it, then pushing tasks necessary for running that business onto paying students is kind of cheesy.
> 
> ...


I've always looked at it this way, Tony: you either pay more for cleaning, or you help with cleaning. Every student I've ever trained with wanted costs kept down. That's why I look at it like renting an apartment and cleaning up, too. You can pay for someone to clean your apartment (in fact, luxury apartments sometimes include that service), or you can do it yourself and save money. All the training benefits aside, if the instructor has to clean everything himself, he should expect to make more money (and, thus, should charge more). Since most of the instructors I know have a "day job", every bit of cleaning they do takes away from the rest of life.

I'm a proponent of the training benefits of having students help with the cleaning (the humility it breeds, the sense of responsibility and community, etc.). But that's not everyone's goal, so I have no problem with schools/programs that choose not to have students participate in the upkeep. It's a different approach, is all.

Now, if the school is a commercial program that is fully staffed (paid associate instructors, paid cleaning staff, etc.), then there's no reason other than the training purposes I mentioned why students should be expected to help out. But none of the schools I've ever even visited fit that definition. In most, the associate instructors' only payment was free training (and in some cases, not even that).


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In most, the associate instructors' only payment was free training (and in some cases, not even that).


I do believe that if a student is teaching at the school, then they should at least get their own training for free. Anything less feels exploitive to me.


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## Paul_D (Jan 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> No, it's like paying the rent, and also cleaning your apartment.


Would a swimming teacher expect the pupils to bring their own chlorine to clean the pool with?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I do believe that if a student is teaching at the school, then they should at least get their own training for free. Anything less feels exploitive to me.


I tend to agree with that. If they are only teaching sporadically, some sort of discount should be available. I will say that I saw uncompensated instructors in a school where the chief instructor was (on his own decision, without any request from his instructor) still paying his monthly dues to his instructor, who was two states away. I think the lack of payment to the associate instructors was simply an extension of his mindset that had him voluntarily paying monthly dues to a school he wasn't training at.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 9, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Would a swimming teacher expect the pupils to bring their own chlorine to clean the pool with?


No, but if he might expect them to skim the pool before swimming classes if it's an outdoor pool. Or he might expect them to put the floats away at the end of the class if it's new swimmers (that was an actual thing in my swimming classes as a child).

That said, swimming classes tend to be short-term, so won't often have much time to focus on building as sense of responsibility and community.


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## Paul_D (Jan 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> No, but if he might expect them to skim the pool before swimming classes if it's an outdoor pool. Or he might expect them to put the floats away at the end of the class if it's new swimmers (that was an actual thing in my swimming classes as a child).
> 
> That said, swimming classes tend to be short-term, so won't often have much time to focus on building as sense of responsibility and community.


He can expect all he wants, but he isn't going to get


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 9, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> He can expect all he wants, but he isn't going to get


I'm not sure why you find that so objectionable. It's an easy way to help kids develop a sense of responsibility. Many people who teach anything to kids try to contribute a bit to their larger development.


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## Paul_D (Jan 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> No, it's like paying the rent, and also cleaning your apartment.


I would say it's more like paying to rent your apartment, and then going round and cleaning your landlords for free as well.

If I pay to rent an apartment I get to live there and do what I want when I want, if I pay to train at a dojo it doesn’t become my dojo in which I get to do what I want whenever I want.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 9, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I would say it's more like paying to rent your apartment, and then going round and cleaning your landlords for free as well.
> 
> If I pay to rent an apartment I get to live there and do what I want when I want, if I pay to train at a dojo it doesn’t become my dojo in which I get to do what I want whenever I want.


In no way do you get to do "what I want whenever I want" at any dojo I've ever seen.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 9, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Paying to train, and then helping to clean the dojo as well, is a like paying for a meal in a restaurant and then going into the kitchen to help wash the pots.



Try thinking of it like this.  Let's say you were offered the option to pay X and also help clean the dojo, or pay X+Y and the dojo hires someone to clean up.

You could also think of it this way - at a fast-food restaurant, the patrons are expected to throw their trash away as they exit.  They don't have to do so.  No one will run after them if they don't.  But if no one cleaned their own table, the restaurant would have to alter their business model, hire more people, and prices would go up.

But ultimately, I think buying a 'good' (like fries and a shake) is not like buying a service (like training).

You pay to be taught - and you'll be taught if you show up.

However, the instructor doesn't have unlimited resources.  Students needing one-on-one or desiring advanced training require more effort, and that's a limited resource.  So it is not (IMHO) unreasonable for an instructor to limit some of that to those whom he or she thinks will be best able to receive and implement it.

Students who do things like exhibit a good attitude, who are enthusiastic about training,  who give their best effort, help others, and yes, even pitch in to tidy up the dojo after class might be good indicators of the kinds of people who are most deserving of that extra bit of effort by the instructor. 

That's how I look at it, anyway.  I don't think I am being made into slave labor by pushing a mop around for a couple minutes at the end of class, or emptying out a trash can.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 9, 2017)

One might also note that in Japan, students at public schools clean the classroom after class is over.

Without Janitors, Students Are In Charge Of Keeping School Shipshape

_"There, "school is not just for learning from a book," says Michael Auslin — a former English teacher in Japan. "It's about learning how to become a member of society and taking responsibility for oneself," says Auslin, who is now a resident scholar and director of Japan studies at the American Enterprise Institute."_​For some in traditional martial arts schools, even in the USA, training is about more than just learning the martial arts style being taught.

When we train with a weapon, everyone runs to the back and gets themselves a weapon.  And some senior student runs back and gets a weapon for Sensei.

He is more than capable of getting his own weapon.

It's about respect.

Tidying up the dojo is not about what I paid for - for me.  It's about respect.

I dump my trash at McDonald's also.  Because I have some respect for the next person who sits at the table I sat at.  Part of being a public citizen.


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## Buka (Jan 9, 2017)

I've cleaned dojos since I was a white belt. I was never asked to, I just did. My guys cleaned up as well, I never asked any of them to. They saw us doing it, and took it upon themselves to do so in kind. (There were times when I'd ask for volunteers on an upcoming weekend if we had to paint or if we were building something, people always showed up, especially the ones with trade skills). But, cleaning up the dojo, in big ways or small, was something everybody did at one time or another. It was like bowing in, or putting in a mouthpiece, or wrapping your hands or fist bumping your buddy when he landed a great combination. 

As for the paying of tuition and not picking up after yourself - never really thought about it. Don't really care.


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## jks9199 (Jan 9, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Paying to train, and then helping to clean the dojo as well, is a like paying for a meal in a restaurant and then going into the kitchen to help wash the pots.


It depends on the instructional model.  If your model is a pure service-for-payment, then students should have no responsibility beyond showing up, sure.  But not all of us teach on that model.  Mine is a club and family model, for example.   Some students "pay" their dues by services provided rather than writing a check, others contribute in other ways, and of course some give money which pays the rent.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Flying Crane (Jan 9, 2017)

My sifu teaches a handful of us in his back yard and the garage when the weather gets bad.  It's a small yard and a smaller garage.  A couple times a year we take time out to pull the weeds, cut back the undergrowth, prime the trees, clean up in the garage and his office, etc.  

It's just about keeping our training area nice.  It ain't slave labour.  It's a relationship of trust and sharing, and it takes time to build.

Honestly, I think it's a shame that many in Western culture distill it all down to money, and a financial transaction.  Some things are more than that, the value runs much deeper.  People who can't see that, are missing something of real value.


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## Steve (Jan 9, 2017)

I can see both sides of this issue.  On the one hand, I find any manner of manipulation repugnant, on a visceral level.  Doing something because it's the right thing to do is a done deal.  But if you try to shame me or pressure me into doing something, I'm probably not going to do it, even if, intellectually, I know I probably should.  This is part of why I drifted away from "traditional" martial arts in the first place.   It's also part of why I get into some trouble around here, sometimes. 

But I can see how chipping in to help clean the school is a sign of respect for the instructor and for the school.  It makes sense.  This is very true at many BJJ schools, as sweeping and mopping the mats isn't just about routine maintenance, but actually is a matter of hygiene.  I wouldn't want to be the guy who gets ringworm at the school and gives it to my kids.  Yuck.

I think it's interesting that the idea of helping to clean up the school is linked in some peoples' minds to "traditional" instruction, when my experience has been that this is one thing that was consistent between the traditional schools and the non-traditional schools I've seen (presuming people here consider MMA and BJJ to be non-traditional).


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## Steve (Jan 9, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Paying to train, and then helping to clean the dojo as well, is a like paying for a meal in a restaurant and then going into the kitchen to help wash the pots.


For what it's worth, I agree with you to a point. It's a matter of value.  Is what you're getting worth the value?  If you're being asked to help clean the schools, are you still receiving a good value for the services being rendered? 

There are many eating establishments that ask you to please help keep the restaurant clean, and in return they give you a great value for your food.  Not just the chains, but I've seen some one off joints with great food manage their prices by asking for a little help from the patrons.  And the patrons gladly do so, because they know they're getting really good food at a great price in return.


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## Jenna (Jan 10, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am only a student. But it appears to me that students who do not pick up a broom or mop are noticed. It is understood that not everyone has the ability to do so, due to scheduling and other personal issues. But those who perpetually avoid putting in any effort are noted.


I can ask please, when you say noticed and then noted, these things are noticed and noted by whom? Thank you


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 10, 2017)

Jenna said:


> I can ask please, when you say noticed and then noted, these things are noticed and noted by whom? Thank you



I believe that in a small dojo, everyone gets to know everyone.

All of us know who is lazy.
All of us know who seems to dodge out as soon as class is over and avoids doing anything like emptying a trash can or pushing a vacuum cleaner.
All of us know who avoids being hit, complains about being hit hard, or likes to inflict pain but refuses to accept any.
All of us know who complains the most about everything.
All of us know who brings 'drama' to the dojo.

After many years of training together, we pretty much know everyone and how they behave.   If we see it, sensei sees it.


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## Jenna (Jan 10, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I believe that in a small dojo, everyone gets to know everyone.
> 
> All of us know who is lazy.
> All of us know who seems to dodge out as soon as class is over and avoids doing anything like emptying a trash can or pushing a vacuum cleaner.
> ...


Absolutely I agree with this. Also there is a esprit de corps in most dojo and doing what you say chipping in lifting mats or cleaning up stuff yes I think can help foster this spirit.. that is my experience also.. only still I am wondering if it is voluntary to do or not to do then for what reason do we note and notice who is not like us? My question if I can convey it right is I think what do we (like you say all of us) what do we gain or what do it benefit us by noting and noticing?? And maybe also then what are we to do about it?? Thank you


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 10, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Absolutely I agree with this. Also there is a esprit de corps in most dojo and doing what you say chipping in lifting mats or cleaning up stuff yes I think can help foster this spirit.. that is my experience also.. only still I am wondering if it is voluntary to do or not to do then for what reason do we note and notice who is not like us? My question if I can convey it right is I think what do we (like you say all of us) what do we gain or what do it benefit us by noting and noticing?? And maybe also then what are we to do about it?? Thank you



When we train in the martial arts, for some of us it is a holistic experience.  Unlike learning a foreign language, or how to do advanced mathematics, it matters what kind of person a student happens to be.  Their behavior when given a chance to demonstrate concepts like humility, sharing, kindness, enthusiasm, and willingness to go the extra mile, demonstrates to some of us what kind of martial artist they may become over time.

A caveat I also mentioned earlier is that obviously not everyone *can* put in extra time or effort to do things like clean floors or empty trash after class (although we are only talking about a few minutes, 10 or 15 at the most).  Some have obligations that preclude them from participating - this should be understood since everyone's situation is different.

Given, as I said earlier, that most instructors have limited resources for one-on-one training and teaching more advanced techniques, they have to decide with whom to share it.  Would it be better to share it with people who have demonstrated the characteristics I mentioned above, or someone who by their actions shows they are not willing to put forth voluntary effort?

As an example, I got a text from my sister yesterday.  She was asked by her boss to apply for a supervisory position that just opened up.  Why?  The boss told her she had been observing that my sister was staying late to help others finish their work and she thought that demonstrated a team attitude that would serve well in a supervisory capacity.  My sister was never told to help other people finish their work.  It isn't her job, per se.  She would not have been reprimanded or punished if she had not done so - it  wasn't even expected of her.  But when she did it, her boss noticed it.  

Does that answer your question?


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## drop bear (Jan 10, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Absolutely I agree with this. Also there is a esprit de corps in most dojo and doing what you say chipping in lifting mats or cleaning up stuff yes I think can help foster this spirit.. that is my experience also.. only still I am wondering if it is voluntary to do or not to do then for what reason do we note and notice who is not like us? My question if I can convey it right is I think what do we (like you say all of us) what do we gain or what do it benefit us by noting and noticing?? And maybe also then what are we to do about it?? Thank you



For us. it is the amount of effort that is put in to the person. And a lot of our training is pretty hard and quite often I could not be bothered getting up early to get my head punched in. But if the guy is putting in the hard yards then I will as well.


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## Jenna (Jan 11, 2017)

Yes! You are kind to answer the question thank you.. I ask because you are clear in your answer.. and I cannot disagree with anything you have said at all! It mirror my experience also.. I think what you have said about the kinds of traits demonstrated, humility, kindness, enthusuasm and willingness to go an extra mile are, or can be, pointers to a martial artist who is at very least responsible, and that can only be a good thing yes..  

I have something I am seeking for your opinion on specifically and you have made same point in a different way.. this.. 



Bill Mattocks said:


> A caveat I also mentioned earlier is that obviously not everyone *can* put in extra time or effort to do things like clean floors or empty trash after class (although we are only talking about a few minutes, 10 or 15 at the most).  Some have obligations that preclude them from participating - this should be understood since everyone's situation is different.



This sound to me like we apportion legitimacy to someone reasons for not participating?  Is like this person is excused their nanna is sick in hospital and but this other person I do not excuse them because I imagine they are just a lazy so-and-so.. yet it is all voluntary! My question, you can tell me please why it is ok to judge those unfavourably for not participating? That is fostering an inclusive dojo?? You would not see it as divisiveness?? Thank you for your opinion


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## drop bear (Jan 11, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Yes! You are kind to answer the question thank you.. I ask because you are clear in your answer.. and I cannot disagree with anything you have said at all! It mirror my experience also.. I think what you have said about the kinds of traits demonstrated, humility, kindness, enthusuasm and willingness to go an extra mile are, or can be, pointers to a martial artist who is at very least responsible, and that can only be a good thing yes..
> 
> I have something I am seeking for your opinion on specifically and you have made same point in a different way.. this..
> 
> ...



Interesting. Bare in mind though all of martial arts is voluntary.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Yes! You are kind to answer the question thank you.. I ask because you are clear in your answer.. and I cannot disagree with anything you have said at all! It mirror my experience also.. I think what you have said about the kinds of traits demonstrated, humility, kindness, enthusuasm and willingness to go an extra mile are, or can be, pointers to a martial artist who is at very least responsible, and that can only be a good thing yes..
> 
> I have something I am seeking for your opinion on specifically and you have made same point in a different way.. this..
> 
> ...


I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'll give my take on it, as well. 

First thought: This isn't about excluding anyone. It's a choice they make. If they choose to do some extras - even the least of those extras - I choose to reward that. The basic stuff goes to everyone. I'm not expressing well what I mean here, so I hope you're making more sense of my words than is in them. 

Second thought: At a certain level, there are considerations beyond martial skill. In mainline NGA, a black belt (Shodan) is a certified instructor. The work to reach that rank includes instructor training and a year of student teaching. That's why this becomes an issue at hat point. Most of the instructors I know in NGA would consider the willingness to pitch in, help take care of the dojo, etc., to be part of the attitude that makes a good instructor. Not every style has that soecific concern, but these are also the common traits of the best training partners and students I've had. Thus, putting more time into these folks is a wise investment of that limited resource.


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## JR 137 (Jan 11, 2017)

Our dojo has a dojo cleaning night about 3 times a year.  Everyone shows up and helps out.  We take down all the stuff on the walls and dust, mop, clean the mirrors, and everything else.  When repairs are needed, people volunteer to help out.

We have a few events a year where we all bring in some food.  We all set up and break everything down.

We're not a commercial dojo.  I can't see our dojo paying for much more than a vacation or two every year for my CI and his wife after the overhead is covered.

We're like a family.  A family that's beats each other up, but a family  These things strengthen the bonds between us.  No one is too good to show up, including our CI.  We have parents who don't train that help out with this stuff.  None of this is mandatory, and no one's looked down on if they can't be there.  It's all part of the experience of our dojo.

I could see people thinking they shouldn't have to do any of this.  Far too many McDojos use stuff like this or requiring teaching as cheap labor.  It's all on the CI - if it's being run strictly as a business, I wouldn't help out.  If it's being run as a community/family type place, I'm more than happy to help out any way I can; in fact I feel guilty if I can't.

If you feel all the dojo does is take from you, then you shouldn't feel any obligation to give back.  If you feel you get from the dojo more than you give, then you should feel some obligation to help out.

It's all a balance of giving and taking.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 11, 2017)

Jenna said:


> This sound to me like we apportion legitimacy to someone reasons for not participating?  Is like this person is excused their nanna is sick in hospital and but this other person I do not excuse them because I imagine they are just a lazy so-and-so.. yet it is all voluntary! My question, you can tell me please why it is ok to judge those unfavourably for not participating? That is fostering an inclusive dojo?? You would not see it as divisiveness?? Thank you for your opinion



Gerry answered pretty well and much as I would have.

In essence, we all recognize that everyone has struggles that we're not aware of, and no one is ignored or excluded on the basis of problems they may face that we simply do not understand.

However, it must also be said that there are lazy people.  Unkind people.  Rude people, and not everyone has an illness or a disability to blame it on.  I mean to say that while some people are, for example, autistic, not everyone who behaves like an a-hole is autistic.  Sometimes they are just an a-hole.

We tend to have long-term relationships with our fellow students.  Years in many cases.  While none of us know everything about everyone, we all tend to get a pretty fair idea.  We know people who are struggling with real issues that impact their ability to train.  A person who can't stand being touched, for example.  But that person is working on it, we recognize that, we work within their abilities to assist them.  Another person just doesn't like being hit hard, but he sure does like to hit people hard.  That's not a disability, in my judgment.  That's being a bully.  He won't progress unless he learns to overcome that negative aspect of his personality (in my opinion, I'm not the sensei).

But as Gerry says, all get trained.  No one gets excluded.  But again, the instructors have limited time to do one-on-one and advanced training.  It is only fair that those who demonstrate the aspects of a true learner get that extra bit first.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 11, 2017)

Sorry if this was already mentioned but if you belong to a fitness gym, regardless of how fancy or expensive you are expected to wipe down the equipment after you use it.


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## Buka (Jan 11, 2017)

When you teach the Arts for a while you realize what you're doing can have long lasting influences. Dojos are different from one another, most times, anyway, but when you run one, any kind of one, you're putting an environment into play that can also have long lasting effects on some people, their lives and their families.

People I've taught - teach some of the things they learned in the dojo to their children. And those things have nothing whatsoever to do with choking someone out or punching them in the face or exercising. I've been told this over and over and see it manifest itself in the kids of people I once taught.
I know it's easy to say that "they should have learned those things at home". In a perfect world, yes. But many of them did not have as stable an environment at home as you and I did.

I remember the single mother of a student asking me about something that was bothering her son. He had seen one of the newer kids in the dojo getting badly bullied after school and didn't know if he should have come to the kids aid. She had told him he should have gone and found a teacher. Wanted my opinion. I told her, 'If I was witnessing your son getting badly bullied would you want me to just go go about my day? What if I saw YOU in a jam? Should I just go tell someone?"

"But I don't want him to get into fights."

(me) "Different subject, but neither do I. And, what, you think fighting was the inevitable outcome of that scenario? You son has some very good verbal skills."

The kid being bullied went on to a high level career in protective services. Raised his kids to stick up for other people. The kid that watched it happen, never watched something like that happen again. He became a very successful businessman, and raised his four kids not to stand by and watch. He currently has two grandchildren in the arts, and a granddaughter who wrestles. And my bet is they help around the gym. Just like HE did.


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## Jenna (Jan 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'll give my take on it, as well.
> 
> First thought: This isn't about excluding anyone. It's a choice they make. If they choose to do some extras - even the least of those extras - I choose to reward that. The basic stuff goes to everyone. I'm not expressing well what I mean here, so I hope you're making more sense of my words than is in them.
> 
> Second thought: At a certain level, there are considerations beyond martial skill. In mainline NGA, a black belt (Shodan) is a certified instructor. The work to reach that rank includes instructor training and a year of student teaching. That's why this becomes an issue at hat point. Most of the instructors I know in NGA would consider the willingness to pitch in, help take care of the dojo, etc., to be part of the attitude that makes a good instructor. Not every style has that soecific concern, but these are also the common traits of the best training partners and students I've had. Thus, putting more time into these folks is a wise investment of that limited resource.


This all make sense yes you have answer very nicely I am grateful thank you! and like I do not disagree with any thing you have said  only I mean we cannot know the circumstances of every person and but still we adjudge someone that do not broom the hall or tidy away as unwilling or lazy and we adjudge this as not a good thing and then like you and @Bill Mattocks describe dojo operate a quiet hierarchy of deserving yes??

OK so let me instead ask you a question, I am correct in thinking you are instructor yes?? If so, then what have you said to student who seem to you completely unwilling and devoid of legitimate excuse to pitch in and help take care of dojo etc? Or if not what *have* you said then what *would* you say?  Say that person is me what you would say to me as instructor I am your student?? Thank you


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 11, 2017)

Jenna said:


> OK so let me instead ask you a question, I am correct in thinking you are instructor yes?? If so, then what have you said to student who seem to you completely unwilling and devoid of legitimate excuse to pitch in and help take care of dojo etc? Or if not what *have* you said then what *would* you say?  Say that person is me what you would say to me as instructor I am your student?? Thank you



I am only an assistant instructor; I am also an adult student.  I help with the kids classes, I am not qualified to promote students yet.

I would not say anything in most circumstances.  If I said anything, I would probably say it once, in person, privately. 

I have all the empathy in the world for a person who tries, even if they can't do what is asked of them.  I tend to lose interest in a student who clearly does not care to learn.  It's not my place to solve the world's problems.


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## jks9199 (Jan 11, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Sorry if this was already mentioned but if you belong to a fitness gym, regardless of how fancy or expensive you are expected to wipe down the equipment after you use it.


And throw your trash away, and rack your weights...

Going to Jenna's question about fairness...

Life isn't fair.  Those who put out more will likely receive more.  No problem with that, because everyone has the same opportunity.  And, in a small club, as Bill said, you'll know the guy who can't stay late because he gets up super early the next morning, or has child care issues.  There are other ways he can "pay into" getting more than hanging around and cleaning; he might welcome new students and show them around the club, or run the clubs website, etc.  In a small club, rather than a fee for service structure, everyone contributes in some fashion to keeping the club running -- or the club goes down.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2017)

Jenna said:


> This all make sense yes you have answer very nicely I am grateful thank you! and like I do not disagree with any thing you have said  only I mean we cannot know the circumstances of every person and but still we adjudge someone that do not broom the hall or tidy away as unwilling or lazy and we adjudge this as not a good thing and then like you and @Bill Mattocks describe dojo operate a quiet hierarchy of deserving yes??
> 
> OK so let me instead ask you a question, I am correct in thinking you are instructor yes?? If so, then what have you said to student who seem to you completely unwilling and devoid of legitimate excuse to pitch in and help take care of dojo etc? Or if not what *have* you said then what *would* you say?  Say that person is me what you would say to me as instructor I am your student?? Thank you


I don't have that problem with my program - a very small group and very little they can do to help out means nothing is ever left un-done and there's really not enough for everyone to do.

So, instead, let me speak to how I dealt with it at my instructor's school. First, by the time it gets to be an issue, the person has been training a couple of years. We really didn't expect anyone below blue belt (usually takes 18 months or so) to even catch on and start helping. Once they've been around that long, the folks working with them (instructors, senior students) tend to know their habits and how they think. We also know details of their lives, from what they share while we're all waiting for class. So, if someone has a busy schedule (busier than normal, having just enough time to make classes), an injury, or something else we're aware of, we just understand that's why they aren't doing it, and it's no big deal. If we know someone has an attitude in other ways, and we see them not helping (and we're not aware of other circumstances), one of the senior students would walk by with a broom or duster and just say something like, "Hey, can you grab a rag and get those mirrors before class?" That was usually all it took. Even folks with an attitude would generally pitch in. Those that didn't, usually just left the school as soon as they saw the students (not the instructors) had a communal expectation that everyone pitched in. They didn't fit in, and they didn't like that, so they went somewhere else. I always hoped they found someplace they fit in better.

In the rare case where someone wasn't pitching in and we had no idea why (no attitude problem, and were there in plenty of time), someone (usually the senior brown belt) would just ask. "Hey, I noticed you haven't been pitching in with the dusting and stuff, man. Is everything okay?" I can only think of two times this happened (in both cases, I was the senior brown belt). Both guys were just preoccupied with some crap going on in their lives. I got them an energetic training partner for the next few classes to work off the stress and offered my ear and a beer if they needed to talk. Eventually, when things got sorted in their lives, they were back to helping out.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 11, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> And throw your trash away, and rack your weights...
> 
> Going to Jenna's question about fairness...
> 
> Life isn't fair.  Those who put out more will likely receive more.  No problem with that, because everyone has the same opportunity.  And, in a small club, as Bill said, you'll know the guy who can't stay late because he gets up super early the next morning, or has child care issues.  There are other ways he can "pay into" getting more than hanging around and cleaning; he might welcome new students and show them around the club, or run the clubs website, etc.  In a small club, rather than a fee for service structure, everyone contributes in some fashion to keeping the club running -- or the club goes down.


Yeah, those who can't help on a regular basis tend to find something substantial to help out with when they can. They show up with power tools when there's a big job (like a new frame around the mats, or new benches to be built, etc.) or something. In the long run, most people simply find a way to be part of the community.


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## Jenna (Jan 12, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't have that problem with my program - a very small group and very little they can do to help out means nothing is ever left un-done and there's really not enough for everyone to do.
> 
> So, instead, let me speak to how I dealt with it at my instructor's school. First, by the time it gets to be an issue, the person has been training a couple of years. We really didn't expect anyone below blue belt (usually takes 18 months or so) to even catch on and start helping. Once they've been around that long, the folks working with them (instructors, senior students) tend to know their habits and how they think. We also know details of their lives, from what they share while we're all waiting for class. So, if someone has a busy schedule (busier than normal, having just enough time to make classes), an injury, or something else we're aware of, we just understand that's why they aren't doing it, and it's no big deal. If we know someone has an attitude in other ways, and we see them not helping (and we're not aware of other circumstances), one of the senior students would walk by with a broom or duster and just say something like, "Hey, can you grab a rag and get those mirrors before class?" That was usually all it took. Even folks with an attitude would generally pitch in. Those that didn't, usually just left the school as soon as they saw the students (not the instructors) had a communal expectation that everyone pitched in. They didn't fit in, and they didn't like that, so they went somewhere else. I always hoped they found someplace they fit in better.
> 
> In the rare case where someone wasn't pitching in and we had no idea why (no attitude problem, and were there in plenty of time), someone (usually the senior brown belt) would just ask. "Hey, I noticed you haven't been pitching in with the dusting and stuff, man. Is everything okay?" I can only think of two times this happened (in both cases, I was the senior brown belt). Both guys were just preoccupied with some crap going on in their lives. I got them an energetic training partner for the next few classes to work off the stress and offered my ear and a beer if they needed to talk. Eventually, when things got sorted in their lives, they were back to helping out.



Empathy like this that you demonstrate for the other even when their position is apparently different for your own, yes, or humble acceptance that your information is not always the complete picture, yes also, these could be first principles I would imagine in efficient resolution of any issue with other person. Thank you so much for helping me establish or clarify thought I have about this xoxo


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## JR 137 (Jan 12, 2017)

Funny, I was thinking of this thread when I was leaving my daughters' gymnastics class today...

My almost 4 year old and 6 year old daughters take gymnastics.  The school is pretty big, with 4 different gyms/zones/whatever in it, and 100s of students.  The price isn't cheap by any means, but it's priced appropriately.

They have a travel competition team.  They're usually doing some sort of fundraising and have signs up asking for volunteers for the fundraisers.

I feel no obligation nor desire to volunteer.  I've never been treated like a part of the gym.  No special events, nothing.  I pay, my kids get instruction, we leave when we're done.  I do my part with tuition, they do theirs with instruction.

My dojo is nothing like that.  There are plenty of dojos around me who are.  I feel a sense of community in my dojo.  I help out any way I realistically can.  I feel no sense of community in my kids' gymnastics school.  I pay, they learn, we leave.  Maybe if my kids were on the travel team I'd feel a sense of community.  I don't feel I should help out, unless maybe I need my car washed and the kids are doing it for $5 while I'm there.


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