# Assumptions if you are being choked



## SFC JeffJ (Jan 5, 2007)

Last week after one of our classes, everybody got talking about various SD scenarios and what to to assume if various techniques are used on you.  We ended up getting to chokes.  Most of us were of the opinion that if you are put in, lets say a rear naked choke, that you have to assume they are not just trying to choke you out, but trying to kill you.  

Personally, I was surprised that a couple of the people disagreed with this.  Asking them about it wasn't very enlightening either.  They were pretty vauge in their answers.

What are your thoughts on the matters?

Jeff


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## MJS (Jan 5, 2007)

JeffJ said:


> Last week after one of our classes, everybody got talking about various SD scenarios and what to to assume if various techniques are used on you. We ended up getting to chokes. Most of us were of the opinion that if you are put in, lets say a rear naked choke, that you have to assume they are not just trying to choke you out, but trying to kill you.
> 
> Personally, I was surprised that a couple of the people disagreed with this. Asking them about it wasn't very enlightening either. They were pretty vauge in their answers.
> 
> ...


 
I'd say that its a pretty safe assumption to think that the person applying it has the intention of causing you as much harm as possible.  Even if they simply let go once you went out, whats to say that they wouldn't continue to assault you while you were laying there?  

Just my thoughts 

Mike


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## Bigshadow (Jan 5, 2007)

JeffJ said:


> Last week after one of our classes, everybody got talking about various SD scenarios and what to to assume if various techniques are used on you.  We ended up getting to chokes.  Most of us were of the opinion that if you are put in, lets say a rear naked choke, that you have to assume they are not just trying to choke you out, but trying to kill you.
> 
> Personally, I was surprised that a couple of the people disagreed with this.  Asking them about it wasn't very enlightening either.  They were pretty vauge in their answers.
> 
> ...



Maybe they were thinking with a sport mindset.  As for me, if someone is trying to choke me (no matter the choke), they are threatening my life and I will do what is necessary to neutralize the threat.

A choke is intended to choke off the air and/or blood supply to the head, doing this is life threatening, regardless of their intent.


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 5, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> Maybe they were thinking with a sport mindset.  As for me, if someone is trying to choke me (no matter the choke), they are threatening my life and I will do what is necessary to neutralize the threat.
> 
> A choke is intended to choke off the air and/or blood supply to the head, doing this is life threatening, regardless of their intent.


Actually, I'm pretty sure they don't have the sport mind-set about it.  Probably, knowing these guys, more along the lines of not having the stomach to do what would be necessary.

Jeff


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 5, 2007)

I think you have to definately look at it as a move that is going to kill you. (in the moment)  It may not but you do not know the other persons intentions.  If they decide to hold it for quite a while after you pass out then you will probably die.  So I would definately treat it as a life threatening event.  However are not all self defense situations potentially life threatening if they become *physical*?


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## Marvin (Jan 5, 2007)

In a self defence situation, if someone is choking you, you can belive that they are trying to kill you or worse.


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## Lisa (Jan 5, 2007)

JeffJ said:


> Last week after one of our classes, everybody got talking about various SD scenarios and what to to assume if various techniques are used on you.  We ended up getting to chokes.  Most of us were of the opinion that if you are put in, lets say a rear naked choke, that you have to assume they are not just trying to choke you out, but trying to kill you.
> 
> * Personally, I was surprised that a couple of the people disagreed with this.  Asking them about it wasn't very enlightening either.  They were pretty vauge in their answers.
> *
> ...



I am surprised by their answers, however, I wonder if their attitude would change should they ever find themselves in that situation and survived it.  I also wonder that if they don't have that fight instinct if they would be able to get themselves out of that situation and use the skills they are training with.

hhmmm...interesting.

Jeff, grab one of them from behind and choke them out next class, then report back to us what their reaction was.


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## Brother John (Jan 5, 2007)

assuming is a dangerous game!!
I think it's entirely unsafe to look at a physical altercation as anything less than life threatening. I don't "Hobby fight", nor do I engage in sport fighting ON THE STREET....there are no rules. Assuming that someone is going to choke me out and let go at the right time is a bit like assuming that a knife wielding attacker isn't going to cut me anywhere important or life threatening and as soon as I yell "OUCH"...will quit poking me with it.

Responding with anything less than your all in such situations is weak and will probably not turn out for the best.
well.....not YOUR best.

Have a good day

Your Brother
John


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## Robert Lee (Jan 5, 2007)

For one thing If you have been put in a choke and are struggling to get out of it. remember it takes a short time to choke a person out. You must train to escape a choke  Best to hope you do not end up being choked. It sounds easy to escape but it is not that easy. Less training harder it is to escape. Train hard and do your best anytime you have to fight.


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## The Kidd (Jan 5, 2007)

They are trying to harm you!


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## jdinca (Jan 5, 2007)

Marvin said:


> In a self defence situation, if someone is choking you, you can belive that they are trying to kill you or worse.



Um, or worse? 

If someone puts me in a choke hold, they better be trying to kill me because I'm going to respond like they are.


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## ares (Jan 5, 2007)

Outside of class, if someone was going to choke me, I would assume he meant me harm. I train so I can avoid if possible this situation, but if it came down to it, ( if I was being mugged on the street) I would try and punish the person trying to choke me out and really not lose any sleep over it. When you hesitate in situations like this, it could turn ugly fast. ares


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## Infinite (Jan 5, 2007)

In California the process of applying a choke is considered life threatning and fatal seld defense is considered justified.

I suppose of the police say, "If someone is choking them it is ok to kill them." You probably should as they have the statistics that indicate your not going to wake up.


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## bushidomartialarts (Jan 5, 2007)

if somebody's choking you, you should _*act as though*_ they are trying to kill you.

that said, a messed up headlock feels a lot like a rear naked choke.  also, a guy who grabs you by the throat by both hands from the front is a bloody incompetent and may be entitled to a wee bit of mercy.

so i can understand the idea that not all chokes are intended to be lethal:  i've seen a lot of idjits throw one on because that's what they saw on tv last night.  

still, you should respond as if their intent was deadly.  best to err on the side of caution in this case.


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## scottt (Jan 6, 2007)

Do these people also think that if they tap, the attacker will let them go?  Sounds like they are in la-la land.

As has been stated repeatedly, you don't really know what they are going to do.  If it is a real choke, then it can really kill you, even if the attacker doesn't realize this.

The person might not be _trying_ to kill you, but even when murder is not pre-meditated, or even if it is accidental, someone dies.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 6, 2007)

If someone tries to choke me, they are using (or attempting to use) deadly force and I will respond with deadly force...'nuff said.


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## Flatlander (Jan 6, 2007)

Infinite said:


> In California the process of applying a choke is considered life threatning and fatal seld defense is considered justified.


Do you have a reference for this?  I'd be interested to see that.

Jeff, if I had to guess, the folks in your class that disagreed with assuming the attacker's intent to kill if they were being choked were likely looking at things from their own point of view; which is to say, perhaps they believe that if they were applying a rear naked on the street that perhaps _they'd not_ be intending to kill.  Personally, I can agree with that premise.  However, I think it to be completely unsafe to make that assumption about others.  I think the safest bet is to assume that everyone that uses physical violence against you is intending the worst, and the response ought be consistent with that mindset.


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## Cruentus (Jan 6, 2007)

JeffJ said:


> Last week after one of our classes, everybody got talking about various SD scenarios and what to to assume if various techniques are used on you. We ended up getting to chokes. Most of us were of the opinion that if you are put in, lets say a rear naked choke, that you have to assume they are not just trying to choke you out, but trying to kill you.
> 
> Personally, I was surprised that a couple of the people disagreed with this. Asking them about it wasn't very enlightening either. They were pretty vauge in their answers.
> 
> ...


 
In our state (Michigan) choking is considered act of lethal force. Cops aren't allowed to "choke people out" unless lethal force is justified. In most situations of assault, is reasonable to assume that someone trying to choke you out is intending to inflict grave bodily damage or worse on you.

Saying otherwise is like saying that the person who brandishes the gun or knife to get what he wants isn't intending to use it; it may be true, but one can't risk assuming that.


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## Kwiter (Jan 6, 2007)

Friend of mine used to do this in the shop on occassion, he's got his own school here in Brooklyn, he used to grab in headlock etc and ask how you'd get out, the first time he did it to me I laughed when he asked and he was a bit perplexed why I laughed,I then replied first I'd cut this Tendon on the back of your leg and tapped his leg with my pocket knife(was still closed as I was reasonably sure who it was in the shop) he let go and said yeah that would work pretty good ;-)

Skennen Peace


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## elder999 (Jan 6, 2007)

They're trying to kill me. That's not an assumption, I'd take it as *fact*, both intellectually and situationally.While I'd admit the possibility-with the increase in people doing submission type training-that they might just be trying to put me to sleep, or take my wallet, or play some kind of lame joke, possibly kidnap me, rape me, rape my wife-all equally valid _assumptions_-they've got their arms around my neck and are trying to cut off the blood flow to my brain and/or my breath.This is the only relevant data, and is trying to kill me, probably in any state in the union, for now......


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## charyuop (Jan 7, 2007)

I'd say it is a life threatening situation, even coz you don't know what the attacker is aware of...I make an example with a personal experience.

I was around 12 years old and I was in pubblic swimming pool alone with the water up to my waist. From behind here comes a guy who never liked me. He grabs from behind and starts holding my head near his waist under the water. He was much stronger than me and I could do nothing to release the arm from around my neck. I was at my very last seconds, I was getting ready to breathe in water, when I just stretched out my hand and squeezed his testicles.

I don't think his intent was killing me, but I don't even think he was actually aware of the length of time I could stay without oxygen. Thus he could have killed me not intentionally.


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