# Training



## LawDog (Apr 11, 2009)

I have read in many Kenpo / Kempo threads / posts that there are those who believe that using,
*strike boards do nothing for a martial artist,
*heavy bag training is also a waste of time,
*strength training is not needed, technique alone will do the job,
*interaction drills are not needed,
*contact sparring / fighting is not done for many reasons,
*presets and forms are all a martial artist will need.

I know that these subjects hae ben covered in many individual posts but I would like to put them together so that many can see it the big picture of the various views in one thread alone.


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## terryl965 (Apr 11, 2009)

I believe all is needed to be properly ready for anything.


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## Drac (Apr 11, 2009)

LawDog said:


> I have read in many Kenpo / Kempo threads / posts that there are those who believe that using,
> *strike boards do nothing for a martial artist,


 
BS




LawDog said:


> *heavy bag training is also a waste of time,


 
BS



LawDog said:


> *strength training is not needed, technique alone will do the job,


 
Strenght training IS needed..Technique alone will NOT do the job..




LawDog said:


> **interaction drills are not needed,


 
Ya can never have enough interaction drills..




LawDog said:


> contact sparring / fighting is not done for many reasons,


 
Maybe its not done cause there are too many sissies in that class




LawDog said:


> *presets and forms are all a martial artist will need.


 
Wrong...


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## SL4Drew (Apr 11, 2009)

LawDog said:


> I have read in many Kenpo / Kempo threads / posts that there are those who believe that using,


 
Since most of this is aimed my way...



LawDog said:


> *strike boards do nothing for a martial artist,


 
I wouldn't say nothing. But I do not believe that such training provides any utility for an average person or that whatever benefits it may provide cannot be acquire elsewhere. And many of the old timers I know (and knew) that trained striking hard things over and over again did not age gracefully. Maybe like high kicking, one might get lucky and such training not greatly damage your body and joints after decades, but I personally don't think the potential benefits outweigh the potential costs. This is especially so given how most people have a rather sedentary lifestyle compared to the Okinawans even 50 years ago.



LawDog said:


> *heavy bag training is also a waste of time,


 
Again, I wouldn't say that categorically. If you are training for sport or exercise, then they can be a fine tool. They are just no substitute for the human body. So if you can get on the floor and train with a partner, then yeah I would say your time would be much better spent with a partner. The way I train, they aren't necessary and about the only thing I hit a bag with occasionally are kicks. And with regard to it as a teaching tool, people try to hit the bag too hard and often fail to develop good body mechanics. 



LawDog said:


> *strength training is not needed, technique alone will do the job,


 
Technique alone can do the job. If I am on the floor with a woman giving up a hundred pounds and 8 inches to me, then she has to have good technique. It is especially important to have, train, and teach good technique where woman are concerned because they will be physically over matched by an attacker. So, if your material can only work for strong men, then I believe there is a problem with your material.



LawDog said:


> *interaction drills are not needed,


 
I wouldn't agree with this statement.



LawDog said:


> *contact sparring / fighting is not done for many reasons,


 
I think that sparring can inculcate bad habits and possibly set up someone for failure in a sudden ambush type street attack. Again, I wouldn't say make the above statement categorically. If competition is why you're in the martial arts, then it can be great and fun. But even saying that about sparring in general, I would not to say there shouldn't be contact and significant contact in class. I think contact is necessary to increase your chances of surviving a street encounter.



LawDog said:


> *presets and forms are all a martial artist will need.


 
If this is saying that techniques aren't necessary, I would disagree. You can learn a lot of information from forms, but I personally feel that do not provide students with enough to be consistently effective in a street confrontations.

And you forgot to put on the list using static horse stances for balance.


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## Thesemindz (Apr 11, 2009)

I think the voting so far is pretty clear.

That being said, I have known some people who came from kenpo schools that didn't spar, who were _very_ effective kenpoists in self defense situations. So it isn't necessary for everyone, and certainly forms and sets have their place, but they aren't necessary for everyone either.

Ultimately, I think more training is better training. And any training is better than none.


-Rob


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## MJS (Apr 12, 2009)

LawDog said:


> I have read in many Kenpo / Kempo threads / posts that there are those who believe that using,
> 1)*strike boards do nothing for a martial artist,
> 2)*heavy bag training is also a waste of time,
> 3)*strength training is not needed, technique alone will do the job,
> ...


 
Good thread! 

1) I'm assuming you're talking about makiwara (sp) and not board breaking here.  If you are talking about makiwara (sp) training, I'm ok with that as long as its done properly and within reason.  It will build up and condition your knuckles and most likely give you a strong and sturdy punching surface.  Of course, as I said, do it within reason.  I don't want to walk around with huge calouses and disfigured hands.

2) IMO, its not a waste of time.  While the targets are not hitting back like a person would, you're still working on footwork, boxing skills, timing, balance, power, speed, to name a few things.  It also gives you a hell of a cardio workout.

3) Strength does play a part, but I think that its been proven that tech. can overcome strength.

4) I'm assuming you mean partner drills.  Yes, those are important.

5) Contact sparring is important and should be done.  So many other things can be incorporated into that, such as clinch work, where close range strikes can be used, as well as grappling.  You'll need to gear up, but man, it gives you a hell of a workout, and gives you the chance to test yourself under some pressure.

6) Forms and kata are IMO, just one piece of the puzzle.  IMO, for someone to think that is all they'll need...well, they're mistaken.  Forms do have application that can be used and they do help to finetne basics.


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## LawDog (Apr 12, 2009)

SL4,
This poll wasn't aimed at anyone. Just read the many different posts / threads that cover these subjects from the past few years.
p.s. SL4, who are you really?


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## MattJ (Apr 13, 2009)

*strike boards do nothing for a martial artist - 

I wouldn't say _nothing_, but I don't use them.

*heavy bag training is also a waste of time -

Heavy bag training is one of the best ways to get striking power.

*strength training is not needed, technique alone will do the job - 

Strength training is not _neccesary_, but it can help, for sure.

*interaction drills are not needed -

Drills are the first step in progressive resistance training. Very important, IMHO.

*contact sparring / fighting is not done for many reasons - 

Contact sparring is a must for development or realistic timing and distancing application. Practically impossible for most people to get those skills without sparring.

*presets and forms are all a martial artist will need - 

I disagree. Forms are generally a waste of time, IMHO.


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## SL4Drew (Apr 13, 2009)

LawDog said:


> SL4,
> This poll wasn't aimed at anyone. Just read the many different posts / threads that cover these subjects from the past few years.
> p.s. SL4, who are you really?


 
Is this some sort of metaphysical question?

I am a student of Doc's and have been for over 10 years.  Before that I trained in a different version of Kenpo, beginning when I was a kid.  I've run a commercial school, a non-commercial school, and a college Kenpo club.  I also have been active in the martial arts community, most recently as a division leader for the Arnold Classic.


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## seasoned (Apr 13, 2009)

LawDog said:


> *I have read in many Kenpo / Kempo threads / posts that there are those who believe that using,*
> *strike boards do nothing for a martial artist,
> *heavy bag training is also a waste of time,
> *strength training is not needed, technique alone will do the job,
> ...


 


SL4Drew said:


> Since most of this is aimed my way...


 
I don't see it that way, from the first part of the thread it is clear that LawDog states, that it "comes from many Kenpo/Kempo threads/ posts".


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## LawDog (Apr 13, 2009)

SL4Drew,
Thanks for the response, sometimes it is easier to understand someone if you know who they are and where they have been.


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## McLargehuge (Apr 14, 2009)

LawDog said:


> *strike boards do nothing for a martial artist,



I read somewhere that it takes about as much force to break a rib as it does to break a board.


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## SL4Drew (Apr 14, 2009)

seasoned said:


> I don't see it that way, from the first part of the thread it is clear that LawDog states, that it "comes from many Kenpo/Kempo threads/ posts".


 
I wasn't stating this as a negative, just a fact.  In the thread from which these came we were on different sides.  No biggie for me, I was just calling it like I saw it.


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## celtic_crippler (Apr 14, 2009)

"Boards...do not hit back" - Bruce Lee

At least working over a heavy bag does have positive results. If you need to break a board to build your confidence then I submit that your overall training is lacking. 

Funny Story:
Way back in the Dark Ages I actually studied a little TKD. We were going to do a demo  and the school owner was anxiously tapping a board with the knuckle of his pointer finger as we waited to begin. 
Before we even went up in front of the audience the board split in two and fell apart...ROFLMAO


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## LawDog (Apr 14, 2009)

Was not referring to the breaking of a board just the striking into a covered one.
Boards do not strike back is correct but hands can be broken.
p.s. Going to the Carolinas for a week.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 14, 2009)

I basically said "yes" to everything, but I think that a better answer is "it depends".

It really depends a lot on how one approaches any of these methods.

I feel that striking a heavy bag or strike surface is important, but it is also easy to overdo and do more than is needed.  Most people don't need to go 10 rounds on the heavy bag every day.  Only someone who is preparing for a pro or semi-pro fight needs to do that kind of thing.  Personally, I think it's imporant to hit a bag because it trains you and your body to be familiar with what it's like to strike something solid.  It also helps develop the strength to land the strike without getting hurt yourself.  Better to make a mistake and sprain a wrist on the heavy bag and then learn from the mistake, then sprain your wrist in a real self defense situation.  I always use bare hands, I do not tape up nor wear gloves.  For self defense, you need to know what it's like bare handed, because on the street you won't be able to tape nor wear gloves.

But for most people, I think moderate intensity on the bag once or twice a week is plenty.  If you aren't training to be a champion competitor, you don't need more than that.

I also don't feel it's necessary to "box" the bag.  Instead, I prefer to take basic techniques, such as the various hand strikes and elbow strikes and kicks, and just train them in a straightforward and simple way from a solid stance.  Develop good power using the basic techniques.  I find that "boxing" the bag doesn't do much for me, other than give a cardio workout and honestly my forms training does plenty of that.  I train with a number of lengthy Chinese forms that are done at high speed, and my cardio is pretty good from that.

Strength Training can be useful, but again, it depends on how you approach it.  For most people, moderate strength training is plenty.  Someone who is not trying to be a champion competitor doesn't need to bulk up.  The time spent in extensive strength training could be better spent training in your martial art.

Live partner drills are important, again if done right.  they need to be realistic, yet cooperative enough that the partners are actually LEARNING from the exercise.  Intensity and resistance can gradually increase, as skill increases.  But you don't want to just stifle each others attempts and create a situation of unuseful frustration.

I also voted "yes" on forms because I feel they are very useful, altho I would not say that alone they provide enough.  There was simply no other option related to forms.  I wanted to include them, so I voted for them as well.  Forms contain the body of techniques and strategies that make up the traditional system.  They can also be a source of tremendous conditioning, if done properly.  

I understand that not all systems have forms, and not everyone likes them.  that's OK, you can become skilled without them, I won't argue that point.  But for those systems that use them, and for those who like them, they most definitely ARE a useful and important part of the bigger picture.


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## kidswarrior (Apr 14, 2009)

Heavy bag/shield - yes, but not in boxer fashion.

Strength train - yes, but not lifting (dead) weight. We train against _live_ weight (moving bodies around, not piles of metal). Does this also count as a live drill, or is that code for Sparring? 

Live drills - yes, but not 'gloved up' sparring. My various experiences with sparring all came from the same model. We would have class, learn a bunch of self defense stuff, then have 5-10 minutes of kickboxing/brawling. Don't need either to do the other, and neither is directly related to the other as far as I could ever see.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 23, 2009)

LawDog said:


> I have read in many Kenpo / Kempo threads / posts that there are those who believe that using,
> *strike boards do nothing for a martial artist,
> *heavy bag training is also a waste of time,
> *strength training is not needed, technique alone will do the job,
> ...


I would say that each choice can get in the way of the other choices. If sparing gets in the way of your students learning proper form, you should re-evaluate how and why you spar.
Sean


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## marlon (Apr 25, 2009)

LawDog said:


> I have read in many Kenpo / Kempo threads / posts that there are those who believe that using,
> *strike boards do nothing for a martial artist,
> *heavy bag training is also a waste of time,
> *strength training is not needed, technique alone will do the job,
> ...


 
Strike boards and board breaking are excellent ways of training focus and power.  Over use could do long term damage

Heavy bag training is excellent because hitting the air does not give the right picture

Strength training is essential for health and for the martial arts. Placing more importance of strength in execution presupposes that your attacker will be weaker and / or slower than you and therefore , imo, is an error in training focus.

interaction is what confrontation is all about

point sparring is an elaborate game of tag and has the benefits of that game. Contact sparring is fun and has its uses for conditioning and learning how to interact in a fight,.  However, without understanding that you cannot really use most of your kempo in these situations...and more importantly neither can your attacker...well it can produce a misunderstanding of your skill in self defense.  But used properly with the right emphasis on body structure and alignment it is a useful tool

presets and forms should contain all the information a martial artist will need...but that is theory...application is in the practice and teaching

i answered these without looking at the other responses so that i may better judge where i am in understanding in relation to the notable masters on this forum.  It helps me learn and assess myself, hopefully i have not offended anyone

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## kidswarrior (May 11, 2009)

As I watch the results of this survey, it occurs to me that if it comes down to a real-time crunch situation, then popularity, conventional wisdom, or commercial success have no place at the table. Kind of a twist on the old _arts don't fight, people do_. Others' opinions aren't going to help -- or hurt -- me if I must defend myself from a predator. 

But don't get me wrong, I enjoy these discussions as much as the next guy.


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## toejoe2k (May 11, 2009)

Borrowing from the old statement that "Chance favors the prepared mind", I will do all I can to prepare utilizing the equipment and opportunities that I have available.

That includes makiwara and heavy bag training and especially sparring.
Battling a resisting opponent will sure tell you where you stand, even if you don't/can't utilize soft tissue attacks...it tells you if you have the heart. 
Do you choose to give up if you get tagged really good or do to put your hands back up and keep fighting through it? Do you take advantage of an opponent's weakness while sparring? If not, you might not have it in you to incapacitate an attacker. My point is, if you don't have the heart, it's better to run than to fight. And, how will you know which to do if you don't simulate it properly?​Just my opinion...for what it's worth.


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## Jdokan (Dec 11, 2009)

I think all is important...that being said any training that hurts the body permanently isn't good...Having broken my left hand years ago doing makiwara training wasn't a really big deal until I got back into playing guitar & got OLDER....certain things with my left hand I just can't do anymore....BUt the main thing here is I went overboard and I believe that is the real issue....Had I followed standard protocol and did things in moderation I would have not had the limitation I have today...


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## Rabu (Jul 27, 2010)

I would suggest what you train _for_ dictates _how_ you train.

Training without direction can offer you some benefits, but dont expect those benefits to be without limit, or risk.


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## DRANKIN (Jan 14, 2011)

This poll requires an "all of the above" selection. But none of it is very useful without a focus on body mechanics, form.

In my opinion, form is crucial. SD techniques are mini-forms. Kata are forms (of course). Basics from a horsestance are forms. Freestyle techs are forms. Form is the collaberation, the culmination, the expression of your basics. 

All motion can be dissected with a focus on form geniunely because YOU are ultimately responsible for how motion is executed. YOU are making the motion with the unique, personal, intimate relationship you have with your own body. And if you don't have good form it's because you aren't listening... to your body, and the rudementary execution of YOUR basics. YOUR unique body mechanics.

And it's not about flashy or impressive motion to the outside observer. Some folks muscle through their motion, some speed through their motion. Proper form forgoes the intention of force and speed in order to have force and speed.

Late night musings.


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