# Chuck Norris and a BJJ question



## Xue Sheng (Mar 12, 2012)

I knew Chuck Norris trained BJJ and I think I knew he trained with Carlos Machado but I did not know got a brown belt from Carlos Machado

Does anyone know when he received his Brown Belt in BJJ from Carlos Machado? 

And has he gone any further in ranking?


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## Twin Fist (Mar 12, 2012)

i thought he got to black


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2012)

I've heard he started training in 1990 under Carlos Machado.  He also trained with Rigan Machado.  

I'm pretty sure he's a black belt, but as for when and from whom, I don't know.  I'd presume from Carlos Machado.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 12, 2012)

i had heard under carlos machdo. What i dont know is where the machado's fall in the bjj scheme of things


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## MJS (Mar 12, 2012)

Not sure how accurate this is, but.....
http://wikibin.org/articles/list-of-celebrity-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-practitioners.html

Chuck Norris (Martial Artist/Actor): Black belt under Rigan Machado.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> i had heard under carlos machdo. What i dont know is where the machado's fall in the bjj scheme of things


Pretty damned close to the source.  His lineage basically looks like this:

Meada >> Carlos Gracie Sr. >> Carlos Gracie Jr. (head of IBJJF and Gracie Barra) >> Carlos Machado

The five Machado brothers were right there in the mix at the very beginning.   They all trained extensively with Helio, Carlos Sr., Carlinhos and Rolls Gracie, and are related to them by marriage.   

The pedigree doesn't get much better.  Carlos Machado is an 8th degree red/black belt.


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## punisher73 (Mar 12, 2012)

Steve said:


> Pretty damned close to the source. His lineage basically looks like this:
> 
> Meada >> Carlos Gracie Sr. >> Carlos Gracie Jr. (head of IBJJF and Gracie Barra) >> Carlos Machado
> 
> ...



As Steve pointed out, the Machado's are VERY good and very close to the source of BJJ.  The only bad stuff I had heard about the Machados was basically when they first started making it really big here in the US, some of the Gracie camp took exception to it and distanced themselves from it with some of the "sport" vs. "self-defense" stuff.  If you trained with the Machados (again, just stuff talked about when I was new to the BJJ scene) then you were NOT welcomed at the Gracies.  It used to be VERY territorial (sp?) on who you studied with and you did NOT study with anyone else.  I don't think it is that way anymore, but it has been awhile since I have rolled.


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## bjjcompete (Mar 12, 2012)

I was expecting a Chuck Norris joke involving BJJ.

Chuck Norris once killed two stones with one bird.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 13, 2012)

LOL.  Chuck's member is so big they had to add another J?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2012)

Steve said:


> I've heard he started training in 1990 under Carlos Machado.  He also trained with Rigan Machado.
> 
> I'm pretty sure he's a black belt, but as for when and from whom, I don't know.  I'd presume from Carlos Machado.




So Chuck Norris was 50 when he started training BJJ.... interesting...thanks


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 13, 2012)

Yes I am sure he received his blackbelt from the Machados.  Plus he also had a Judo brown or blackbelt from way back in the day.


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## Jenna (Mar 13, 2012)

Did you check the google books for the old editions of BB magazine etc.? Maybe find further information there?  

Here is an article where Carlos recalls meeting Chuck (at foot and continued)
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=G9kDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2012)

Cool.
I just remembered that there is a Carlos Machado Black Belt in my area too. I have to say of the MAs out there that grant belts today I am most impressed with BJJ. They just do not seem to be giving away belts like some other styles do


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## puunui (Mar 13, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have to say of the MAs out there that grant belts today I am most impressed with BJJ. They just do not seem to be giving away belts like some other styles do



I think that is changing though.


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> I think that is changing though.



Yeah?  Just a gut feeling?


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## puunui (Mar 13, 2012)

Steve said:


> Yeah?  Just a gut feeling?



Just what I hear and what I see.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> I think that is changing though.



Which one BJJ or the other MAs?


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2012)

Just checking.  


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2012)

I have no doubt that over time, especially as BJ gains in popularity you will start seeing belt factories appear and that is a rather sad thought to me. I remember when getting a belt was not easy in an art and then things changed and people started giving the things away to gain students and promising Black belts in a year.

However I would be thrilled if other MAs where starting to make it harder, more like the old days


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have no doubt that over time, especially as BJ gains in popularity you will start seeing belt factories appear and that is a rather sad thought to me. I remember when getting a belt was not easy in an art and then things changed and people started giving the things away to gain students and promising Black belts in a year.
> 
> However I would be thrilled if other MAs where starting to make it harder, more like the old days


I would agree that there are some changes occurring within the BJJ community.  The growth of BJJ as a sport has led to more schools and an increasing distance between "sport" and "self defense" oriented schools.

But, I've not seen any indication that standards are dropping at all.  The emphasis on competition and the cross pollination that occurs regularly within the BJJ community keeps schools from promoting too quickly or too slowly.  Promote too fast and your school will gain a reputation for low standards.  Promote too slow and your school will gain a reputation as sandbagging.  And if you choose not to participate, you will quickly find your school ostracized.  

And if you're teaching without credentials, you risk incurring the wrath of the BJJihad.    Bottom line, though, is that I believe the allegations of lower standards is a combination of wishful thinking and idle speculation.


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## puunui (Mar 13, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Which one BJJ or the other MAs?



BJJ. I think it is getting *slightly* easier to get rank now. Still no where near other arts though, and I haven't heard of any children obtaining black belts in BJJ, not even if your last name is Gracie. But things are evolving for sure in the BJJ world.


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2012)

In your lay opinion.  Right?  Just want to make that clear, because to someone who doesn't know, it might sound like you're sharing a fact, or at the very least an informed opinion.  


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## Twin Fist (Mar 13, 2012)

it IS happening. distance learning programs, video programs, those have already happened in BJJ.


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## puunui (Mar 13, 2012)

Steve said:


> In your lay opinion.  Right?  Just want to make that clear, because to someone who doesn't know, it might sound like you're sharing a fact, or at the very least an informed opinion.



if you don't think my opinion is an informed one, then present your evidence to the contrary.


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> if you don't think my opinion is an informed one, then present your evidence to the contrary.



The burden of proof isn't on me.  I don't need to provide evidence that the sky is blue.  If you assert that it is pink, it is on you to support your assertion.  

If you're stating an opinion, fine.  You're entitled to it.  The weight your opinion holds, however, has everything to do with your credibility.   So, if you'd prefer, you can share your resume so that we might better gauge the value of your opinion on the subject.  In much the way my opinion on the fine details of TKD should be measured.  
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## Steve (Mar 13, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> it IS happening. distance learning programs, video programs, those have already happened in BJJ.



People are looking to make money, but that's not the matter at hand.  The assertion is that the standards are slipping.  I'd assert that the opposite Is actually true.  With the Internet making so much technical nfrmation available, purple belts now are more proficient and have more advanced technical proficiency than at any time before.  And that also goes for further advanced ranks.  

In other words, evolution has always been a part of BJJ, but in no way equals a reduction in standards.


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## puunui (Mar 13, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> it IS happening. distance learning programs, video programs, those have already happened in BJJ.



That, and the fact that there is money to be made from BJJ. Here, it takes a minimum of ten hard years to get a GJJ 1st Dan. I took a quick look around and see that some people out there on the mainland are claiming BJJ 2nd after six or less years. I just spoke to a student of mine who runs two Relson schools here and he told me exactly what I wrote above, that people are coming here on vacation, want to get some roll time in, and promptly get tapped by lower belts. He said his private lessons have shot out the roof from visiting BJJ practitioners. My student also said that there are pockets of excellence,those who stick to the "old school" ways, including the Machado groups. So back to the OP, if GM Chuck Norris got a black belt from the Machados, then I am sure he is the real deal.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 13, 2012)

Bjj is not immune to the money making belt factory.  They had a school open up here with questionable background of the head teacher.  I know he quickly prmoted people to get assistant teachers.  There arw no other bjj schools here so if you had nothing to compare it to you would think you were getting quality instruction.  With in a year he had brown belts teaching classes that had never taken bjj before.  He closed shop a few months ago.  So to claim it does not happen is a head in the sand view.  No art is safe from a guy looking for a quick buck.


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## puunui (Mar 13, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Bjj is not immune to the money making belt factory.  They had a school open up here with questionable background of the head teacher.  I know he quickly prmoted people to get assistant teachers.  There arw no other bjj schools here so if you had nothing to compare it to you would think you were getting quality instruction.  With in a year he had brown belts teaching classes that had never taken bjj before.  He closed shop a few months ago.  So to claim it does not happen is a head in the sand view.  No art is safe from a guy looking for a quick buck.



That is another phenomenon out there, people with some judo, hapkido or even kenpo training moving somewhere and opening up a "BJJ/MMA" school. And like you said, with no one to compare it to, how is the student supposed to gauge what they are being taught is the real deal, something that would work against similarly ranked students from a different BJJ/GJJ school? What if there are no tournaments in your area?


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## Kwan Jang (Mar 13, 2012)

Even back in the mid-nineties, there were members of the Gracie clan (iirc it was Junior, but can't swear to it)that were advertising in the martial art industry journals/mags to get a purple belt IF you bought his $400 instructional tape set. They might have required you to be a BB in Judo or JJJ, but I do recall that and was thinking very poorly of the integrity of BJJ at the time.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 14, 2012)

puunui said:


> That is another phenomenon out there, people with some judo, hapkido or even kenpo training moving somewhere and opening up a "BJJ/MMA" school. And like you said, with no one to compare it to, how is the student supposed to gauge what they are being taught is the real deal, something that would work against similarly ranked students from a different BJJ/GJJ school? What if there are no tournaments in your area?


We  have a questionable "bjj/mma" school in my area. I know very little about the school but have friends who have trained there on and off and said its pretty obvious the bjj instructor there is not the real deal. BJJ is the latest fad, just like karate was in the 80's, people will realise this and use it to make quick money and with that the belt factories will start, then some new art will become "the new kid on the block". Its just a cycle. You can almost be guaranteed that within 10 years there will be many places where you can get a bjj black belt quickly, unfortunately money ruins everything, and the average guy on the street doesnt shop around much before joining a club. As far as Im aware there is nothing stopping me from opening "ralph's bjj club" and as soon as people read "bjj" on the sign they will come in droves. Ten years ago it was virtually impossible to get a karate or tkd black belt quickly in my area, now there are a few mcdojos around. It would be naieve to think bjj will be immune to this.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 14, 2012)

Steve said:


> I would agree that there are some changes occurring within the BJJ community.  The growth of BJJ as a sport has led to more schools and an increasing distance between "sport" and "self defense" oriented schools.
> 
> But, I've not seen any indication that standards are dropping at all.  The emphasis on competition and the cross pollination that occurs regularly within the BJJ community keeps schools from promoting too quickly or too slowly.  Promote too fast and your school will gain a reputation for low standards.  Promote too slow and your school will gain a reputation as sandbagging.  And if you choose not to participate, you will quickly find your school ostracized.
> 
> And if you're teaching without credentials, you risk incurring the wrath of the BJJihad.    Bottom line, though, is that I believe the allegations of lower standards is a combination of wishful thinking and idle speculation.



Thanks, good to know, and I hope it continues because I do truly respect BJJs rankings more that most these days


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2012)

puunui said:


> That, and the fact that there is money to be made from BJJ. Here, it takes a minimum of ten hard years to get a GJJ 1st Dan. I took a quick look around and see that some people out there on the mainland are claiming BJJ 2nd after six or less years. I just spoke to a student of mine who runs two Relson schools here and he told me exactly what I wrote above, that people are coming here on vacation, want to get some roll time in, and promptly get tapped by lower belts. He said his private lessons have shot out the roof from visiting BJJ practitioners. My student also said that there are pockets of excellence,those who stick to the "old school" ways, including the Machado groups. So back to the OP, if GM Chuck Norris got a black belt from the Machados, then I am sure he is the real deal.


This is pretty typical, and you'll hear the same rhetoric coming from just about every corner of the USA, as well.  But when you go down to the Pan Ams or the Mundials and watch everyone compete, from white belt up to black, the quality is high and the standards are consistent.  These guys come from all over the world.  If the BJJ were so much better in Hawaii than anywhere else, the winners in each bracket would be Hawaiians.  But they're not.   Hawaii is not represented out of proportion to any place else.  

And at every change in the wind, you will have some who decry the change as a lowering of the standard and some who embrace it and move on.  For example, there was a time in BJJ when the half guard was considered mostly a stalling position.  From half guard, the expectation from the bottom was at one time that the primary goal was to move back to guard. Now, half guard is considered by many a stronger offensive position than full guard.  The same has been true for de la riva and now the same controversy is happening with 50/50.  There are examples after examples.  

Ultimately, as I said earlier, it sounds to me like speculation and wishful thinking on the part of guys who have no first hand knowledge.  Making money has been a part of BJJ since the beginning, as have high standards.  The two aren't mutually exclusive.   If you're suggesting that BJJ continues to evolve and change, I'd agree wholeheartedly.  The easy access to quality information, the DVDs, YouTube and just the availability and quality of the tournament footage, coupled with higher quality personal instruction available as schools grow and become more common, is making the art stronger, not weaker.  

Are there schools trying to capitalize on the success and current popularity of the art?  Sure, but unless the owner has rank, is qualified to teach and encourages competition among his students, it's specious to suggest that he is representative of the style in any way.

Edit:  Just to be clear, when I speak about anything related to TKD, I try to be very careful to qualify my statements and ensure that they are made in context.  It's just polite, IMO.  Were I to make an unqualified, uninformed, blanket statement about TKD, I'd fully expect to be called on it, as I've seen you guys do repeatedly in the TKD forums.  

What I think might be helpful are some specifics.  Which schools are lowering the standards?  Gracie Barra is the largest organization.  Do you think they're lowering the standards?  Pedro Sauer has a huge number of black belts teaching across the world.  I'm with Lotus Club, and my instructor competes internationally and has done well. Lotus Club is smaller than other affiliations like Alliance or Gracie Barra.  His coach is Giva Santana, who has gold medals at the pan ams, beating guys like Damian Maia, and has, IIRC, a 17-1 MMA record.  Are we lowering the standards?  What about on the East Coast...  Lloyd Irvin?  He's making a boat load of money.  Is he lowering the standard?  Every BJJ school I know is associated with a larger group.  So, which group is it that's lowering the standard?  If you are more specific, maybe we can get to the bottom of this.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 14, 2012)

steve, you and I have talked in the past about how this may happen, in fact, may BE happening in BJJ. It has nothing to do with the art in question, it is just the nature of commercial martial arts.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> steve, you and I have talked in the past about how this may happen, in fact, may BE happening in BJJ. It has nothing to do with the art in question, it is just the nature of commercial martial arts.


Totally understand.  And I'm not saying that you guys are wrong to have an opinion.  But I'd prefer to keep things factual and in context.


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## puunui (Mar 14, 2012)

Steve said:


> Totally understand.  And I'm not saying that you guys are wrong to have an opinion.  But I'd prefer to keep things factual and in context.



That works both ways. To put your earlier post about jiujitsu worlds within the perspective of taekwondo would be like saying show up to a USAT national or WTF international event and you would see that the standards for taekwondo are still high. But that says nothing for what is going on at the dojang level.  That, from my perspective, is the factual context of your position. We are talking about different things, you talking about the standards at worlds and me the standards at the school level.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't make me tell Chuck about this little argument...he will not be pleased

> When Chuck Norris crosses the pacific, swimming, sharks hear the "Jaws" music.
> Fear of spiders is aracnaphobia, fear of tight spaces is chlaustraphobia, fear of Chuck Norris is called Logic
> There used to be a street named after Chuck Norris, but it was changed because nobody crosses Chuck Norris and lives.
> Ghosts sit around the campfire and tell Chuck Norris stories.
> Once the cop pulled over Chuck Norris....the cop was lucky to leave with a warning. 
> Chuck Norris has a grizzly bear carpet in his room. The bear isn't dead it is just afriad to move.
> Some magicans can walk on water, Chuck Norris can swim through land.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2012)

puunui said:


> That works both ways. To put your earlier post about jiujitsu worlds within the perspective of taekwondo would be like saying show up to a USAT national or WTF international event and you would see that the standards for taekwondo are still high. But that says nothing for what is going on at the dojang level.  That, from my perspective, is the factual context of your position. We are talking about different things, you talking about the standards at worlds and me the standards at the school level.


And again, I'm looking for some specifics from you.  What schools have you seen?  What organizations or affiliations do you believe are cause for concern where standards aren't being met?  Let's get to brass tacks.  

There are dozens of BJJ schools in the PNW, and I can think of only two that are cause for concern.  They are well known in the area and they have a very small footprint on the grappling community because they are largely ostracized from it.  I don't see it as being an indication that standards are slipping.  

Regarding the mundials and the pan ams, I can't speak to the similarities to the TKD tournaments.  I can only tell you that they are open tournaments, not invitationals, and while there is an obvious range, the quality within each division is good.  They represent multiple affiliations, and schools from all over.


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## puunui (Mar 14, 2012)

Steve said:


> And again, I'm looking for some specifics from you.  What schools have you seen?  What organizations or affiliations do you believe are cause for concern where standards aren't being met?  Let's get to brass tacks.
> 
> There are dozens of BJJ schools in the PNW, and I can think of only two that are cause for concern.  They are well known in the area and they have a very small footprint on the grappling community because they are largely ostracized from it.  I don't see it as being an indication that standards are slipping.
> 
> Regarding the mundials and the pan ams, I can't speak to the similarities to the TKD tournaments.  I can only tell you that they are open tournaments, not invitationals, and while there is an obvious range, the quality within each division is good.  They represent multiple affiliations, and schools from all over.



I don't think it is necessary or even advisable to get "specific" as you would say. And it is mostly my student, a Relson black belt who runs three schools, including one close to Waikiki who tells me these things, although I have watched visitors with higher ranks tapping out to lower ranked students here. The visitors come from all over, including other countries like Australia and New Zealand. A have a lot of interaction with BJJ students, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is because they like my kicking style and strategy which tends to completely neutralize punching in MMA matches. My next door neighbor is also a GJJ black belt and he tells me the same thing. Everyone I interact with say the same thing, that the promotion standards are softening in BJJ for a variety of reasons. Makes me wonder why you say different. 

It seems that your "experience" or "expertise" is limited to your specific area only. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that. Perhaps everything is as you say it is, in your area. But please don't be surprised or angry if others, including but not limited to those who have been at it longer than you have, have a different opinion and perspective on things.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2012)

It's odd how your experience, someone who is appealing to the authority of someone who trains with someone else, is universal.  Mine, on the other hand, as someone who competes and trains in the style, is local.  Curious.

As I said, your opinion is valid, as it belongs to you.  But it remains a second hand account based upon anecdotal evidence interpreted by you.  If you're clear about that, it makes things easy.  Just qualify your statement at the beginning as someone who has zero direct experience or firsthand knowledge about the topic at hand.  

Just as I try to be clear about my experience (or lack of) in TKD when I share my opinions on that subject.  

And, for what it's worth, if you're alleging that standards are slipping, a little specificity might help.  Without specifics, it amounts to hearsay.  "I know a guy who trains with a guy who is best friends with Jhoon Rhee's cousin, and HE says that TKD has really gone to hell.  So, it MUST be true."    It's easy to grouse about how crappy things are and the world's going to pot, but everyone says that about everything.  It's almost never grounded in fact, and is often little more than a longing for a past that never really existed.   Jiu Jitsu is going to hell.  The kids these days are lazy.  Give me a 60's era muscle car instead of these plastic pieces of crap.  Nobody cooks like my mom.  Pat Benetar was way more awesome than Britney Spears.  Blah, blahbity blah.  

But that's just my opinion.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 14, 2012)

Steve I can give you specifics to the best of my ability but I really dont know the "clubs" or "factions" for lack of a better term.  The club and only club Ive seen in person was in my home town and the instructor had a Lion head with like a green and yellow background as his patch and he claimed to be part of some long line of BJJ masters.  Im sorry I cant tell you his name or the organization it was.  He had a website but the school has closed down and the website is now gone.  But I know people that started there having never taken any Martial art before and were brown belt assistant instructors with in a year.  It was also the only BJJ school in the area so if you joined you had no way of knowing you were learing crap unless you did venture out to other competitions and got your butt handed to you. 
Its good to see your defending your art so passionately but I think your blinded to see that there are sub par schools out there that are just as bad as belt factories in other Arts.  They may not have as many yet but for many peopel BJJ is the new kid on the block so there are not as many schools yet.  You may not be around them because the sub par schools may stay away from competitions or at least competitions your involved with.  Ive seen some questionable BJJ schools in Baltimore promoting there own inhouse invitational competitions and the flyers show large muscle bound guys with pit bulls and spiked collars 8 foot tall trophies and words like "Bring the pain" and it looks more like a promo for a new hip hop club then a BJJ competition.  We get them sent to our Dojo every now and then next time I see one Ill grab it and post it.


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## puunui (Mar 14, 2012)

Steve said:


> It's odd how your experience, someone who is appealing to the authority of someone who trains with someone else, is universal.  Mine, on the other hand, as someone who competes and trains in the style, is local.  Curious.



I already explained it and I will tell you that you are misreading what I wrote. Try reading it again. But since you brought it up, what exactly is your experience in BJJ? How long have you been at it? And how much have you seen outside of your own area? 




Steve said:


> As I said, your opinion is valid, as it belongs to you.  But it remains a second hand account based upon anecdotal evidence interpreted by you.  If you're clear about that, it makes things easy.  Just qualify your statement at the beginning as someone who has zero direct experience or firsthand knowledge about the topic at hand.



Wrong again. Some of it comes from others, but some of it is not. And I have trained in GJJ as well, in case you forgot, before you ever heard of it, before most people have heard of it. My first experience with Brazilian Jiujitsu was in the very early 80's, when a group of brazilian students joined the hapkido school that I was teaching at. What were you doing as far as BJJ was concerned back then? 

I told my student about this discussion, and invited him to join in, but he didn't care. But if you are ever in Hawaii, I can introduce you to him and you can speak to him directly about it, if that makes a difference to you. He will tell you the exact same thing that I have. 




Steve said:


> And, for what it's worth, if you're alleging that standards are slipping, a little specificity might help.  Without specifics, it amounts to hearsay.  "I know a guy who trains with a guy who is best friends with Jhoon Rhee's cousin, and HE says that TKD has really gone to hell.  So, it MUST be true."



Actually that would be quadruple hearsay, not hearsay, unless GM Rhee's cousin told you directly that taekwondo has really gone to hell. 




Steve said:


> It's easy to grouse about how crappy things are and the world's going to pot, but everyone says that about everything.  It's almost never grounded in fact, and is often little more than a longing for a past that never really existed.   Jiu Jitsu is going to hell.  The kids these days are lazy.  Give me a 60's era muscle car instead of these plastic pieces of crap.  Nobody cooks like my mom.  Pat Benetar was way more awesome than Britney Spears.  Blah, blahbity blah.  But that's just my opinion.



I think you are taking this much too extremely and much too personally. No one is saying jiujitsu is going to hell, about how crappy things are or the world's going to pot.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2012)

Couple of things, but on small keyboard, so I'll keep it short.  First really not taking it personally.  Easy to misunderstand from text.    Don't worry.  No hard feelings at all on this side.

Second, Im an open book, literally.  The link at the bottom of my post is to my blog.  I have been training since 2006, and started my blog within the first couple months after I started.   You can read about all my ups and downs.  My back issues.  My good days and my bad ones.  I blog about reffing and competing and everything else.  

I'm not a BJJ nuthugger and as i said, i will readily agree that the sport/art is changing.  I just disagree with you.  As with any sport or martial art, there are traditionalists and conservatives who wring their hands and long for the good old days.  But the sport is such that there are elite guys in just about every area.  We have old school guys like Marcelo Alonso in the Seattle area.  Ivan sala erry has a gym  next to Denny park.  My coach has a bronze medal at the pan ams and still competes.    He has promoted only three to black belt.  There are guys in the local area who compete at the Mundials and pan ams every year.  As I said, the combination of local and international competition. Is important.  It keeps the ranks somewhat uniform.  If anything, it slows it down.   It still takes an average of 10 years to get a black belt, and frankly, I'm on the 15 year plan and have no problem with it.  

Bottom line though is that the culture remains about mat time.  Most guys I know seek to avoid promotion and just want to train.  As long as that remains the emphasis, I'm confident that things are just fine.


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## punisher73 (Mar 15, 2012)

So to sum it up.  BJJ competition and skill level is higher than ever in legitimate schools and organizations.  The examples given of shady practices are all of small independant schools that backgrounds couldn't be checked etc.

Even in our small town, we have a VERY good BJJ school and instructor (great guy, when my finances and time permitted it, I trained with those guys and I'm still friends with a couple of them) and then there was a more recent "bjj/mma" school that opened up.  Never went to the other school, but had friends that did and it was pretty much self taught stuff that he may have learned here or there at seminars or short studies.  Now to say that BJJ or MMA standards are slipping would be a falsehood, because what you have it a nontrained conman ripping people off for money.  Now, when the Gracies and Machados and all the other big organizations start handing out BB's after a year of training and it becomes a joke that a kid with one or two years of high school wrestling can beat their BB's, THEN I will say that the standards are slipping and aren't what they used to be.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 15, 2012)

First off I would agree that the level of BJJ practitioners around the world is fantastic and improving every year!  This can be easily witnessed by watching some high level competitions and then comparing them to footage for several years ago.  The elite level practitioners have never been better. 

Unfortunately, not everyone is an elite level practitioner or someone participating at an elite level school.  Steve is right that money has always been a part of BJJ as students have historically always paid for classes.  However, back in the day it was a lot harder to make your living teaching BJJ while now it is possible to do pretty well as a sole method of income.  When some thing is a sole method of income it is harder to always keep standards as high as you would like!

I have had multiple experiences with BJJ blue belts and even purple belts coming into my Training Hall for a class or a personal lesson.  My experience is that the purple belts were good and appropriately ranked.  The blue belts not so much.  It was more of a situation there were you couldn't tell until you rolled with them.  One was mediocre at best and had only trained for a year and was tapping like crazy with people of relatively similar time in our system.  What I have seen personally is that some of the fundamentals were not as strong as what they should be but they did have more advanced submissions than say someone who trained a long time ago.  

Still overall the ranking system in BJJ is the best in the world for a wide spread system.  Let us hope that it remains that way!


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## Steve (Mar 15, 2012)

Okay.  I had to dig up this video by John Wills.  He's a machado black belt.  Very old school.  In fact, he's one of the Dirty Dozen of BJJ... the first 12 non-Brazilian black belts around, and he lives and teaches in Australia.  He put together the following video.  It's funny.  It's undoubtedly a very legitimate point of view from a well respected and credible person.  Agree or disagree, I hope everyone enjoys it as much as I did.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 15, 2012)

Yeah I remember that :uhyeah:


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## puunui (Mar 15, 2012)

Steve said:


> O In fact, he's one of the Dirty Dozen of BJJ... the first 12 non-Brazilian black belts around



Who are the other dirty dozen? When was the first non brazilian awarded his/her black belt?


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## ballen0351 (Mar 15, 2012)

http://www.thegrapplingblueprint.com/

Get your BJJ black belt in 3 and 1/2 years


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 15, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> http://www.thegrapplingblueprint.com/
> 
> Get your BJJ black belt in 3 and 1/2 years



And thats how it all starts.


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## Kwan Jang (Mar 15, 2012)

This ad for Lloyd Irwin's program is an example of fluctuations in standards in the BJJ community. I've heard that the IFBJJ didn't recognize his students ranks because they don't meet the time in grade requirements (I don't know if that is still the case). In defense of Lloyd's methods, I actually see his training methods as being far more efficient than the vast majority of the BJJ instructors out there. He develops far more effective training systems than most who just show you a technique, give you a few pointers and then have you roll until you finally get proficient at it. I'm not one of his guys, but I see validity to many of his methods and he has had a lot of success in turning out the same level (and in many cases even better) of competitors/fighters in 3-5 years than many other schools do in 10-12. However, I can see this as a VERY slippery slope. If he can produce competent BB fighters in this short of a time, it won't be long before the McDojos use his example of why they too should be able to do so. Even though they don't have the rack record that his people do.


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## Steve (Mar 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> Who are the other dirty dozen? When was the first non brazilian awarded his/her black belt?


1991
Craig Kukuk (Royler Gracie) 

1992
Ken Gabrielson (Reylson Gracie) 

1995
David Kama (Rickson Gracie)
Bob Bass (Rigan Machado)
Chris Saunders (Rickson Gracie) 

1996
Chris Haueter (Rigan Machado)
David Meyer (Rigan Machado)
Rick Wlliams (Rigan Machado) 
Rick Minter (Rigan Machado)

1997
John Lewis (Andre Pederneiras)

1998
Roy Harris (Joe Moreira) 
John Will (Rigan and J J Machado) 
Rick Lucero (Joe Moreira)


Since we are all about sharing, who were the Brazilian black belts you trained with in the 80s?

Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## punisher73 (Mar 16, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> http://www.thegrapplingblueprint.com/
> 
> Get your BJJ black belt in 3 and 1/2 years



Except you don't. The program lays out the details and strategy that he employed to get his belt in that amount of time. BJ Penn got his in about 4 years, and that is one reason why he was called "the prodigy", these guys are the exceptions rather than the norm. He also says that he got a Judo BB in a year and a BB in Sambo in a year, and advertises that following his plan you will too.

He isn't the one promoting you through his program, it is a lot of marketing hype to make it seem like it is all easy and doesn't require lots of hard work.  Does he have better methods and organization to learn?  Probably, lots of guys are happy with the methods.  But, you'll notice that there is no money back guarantee that you will get your belt in that amount of time.


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## Kwan Jang (Mar 16, 2012)

While he may not be promoting you through this program, there are at least two black belts under him in the Nashville area alone that Lloyd has promoted in this time frame. I'm in middle TN and this caused a bit of a stir in the local grappling community. There was also a school in the area that when it joined Team Lloyd Irwin, several of the instructors went from purple or brown very quickly to black and others in the area cried foul and noted that their rank was not recognized by the IFBJJ. Personally, I don't care too much for politics either way and I know that one of the instructors took the silver at the Pan Ams, so I have no problem with him being promoted. The school owner might have been iffy, but to me Lloyd has the results, so I'm not going to second guess him. Sometimes I don't get what my own org. is thinking at times and I'm very loyal and high ranked in it and I don't like OUR politics, so I'm honestly not taking pot shots at others. I am just pointing out my observation that this is a break from the normal standards and potentially a slippery slope that even if this is not an abuse in this case, it could be setting an example that will be abused later to justify the McDojos.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2012)

Steve said:


> 1991
> Craig Kukuk (Royler Gracie)
> 
> 1992
> ...


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## Steve (Mar 16, 2012)

And to bring this thing full circle, John Will, member of the dirty dozen and old school jiu jitsu badass, was introduced to the Machado brothers by Chuck Norris.  At least, I recall reading an article by John Will saying something like that.  I know that the two have been friends since the 80s.


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## puunui (Mar 16, 2012)

Steve said:


> Since we are all about sharing, who were the Brazilian black belts you trained with in the 80s?



I told this already. I first heard of Gracie Jiujitsu from a group of brazilians who joined the dojang I was teaching at. They mentioned that they studied "jiujitsu" (without any other description) in brazil. They may have told me that their teacher was a member of the Gracie family, but I don't remember specifically. So I asked them to show me their stuff, but they weren't very good, and through brute strength (I was about 155 and benching 300 with 6% body fat at the time) I could counter their stuff. I thought the concept was good, but they weren't at a level where they could make it work against me, especially if I was standing up. A few years later, i saw them at the beach and they said that their teacher had moved here and i should go study with him. So I did. That was Relson Gracie, he had just moved to Hawaii and he was 4th dan at the time. There was a brown belt named carlos.  There was also a purple belt named Romolo Barros who I still keep in touch with and who has a school here. When I started there was those two, a white belt who started a couple of weeks maybe before me, and Relson. The school was carlos' garage, which was matted out. After class, I used to drive relson home because it was on my way.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Mar 16, 2012)

Chuck Norris received his brown belt when he roundhouse kicked Machado in the face. Chuck Norris got further ranks when he went back in time and taught Okinawans Karate. Rofl.


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