# Isshinryu



## WhiteBeltNoStripe (Dec 17, 2022)

I stumbled across an Isshinryu dojo in Orange City, FL that seems great for anyone in Central Florida that may be looking for a place to train.  The owner/main instructor is an 8th dan and the senior student, who actually outranks the owner is a 9th dan.  It is a small dojo, with only 8-10 students I was told, all black belts (1st - 4th dans) and one colored belt.  With the credentials of the dojo/students, it appears it would be an excellent place to train with a wealth of knowledge in Isshinryu Karate.  The name of the dojo is Isshinryu Karate Do & Self Defense.


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## Buka (Dec 17, 2022)

WhiteBeltNoStripe said:


> I stumbled across an Isshinryu dojo in Orange City, FL that seems great for anyone in Central Florida that may be looking for a place to train.  The owner/main instructor is an 8th dan and the senior student, who actually outranks the owner is a 9th dan.  It is a small dojo, with only 8-10 students I was told, all black belts (1st - 4th dans) and one colored belt.  With the credentials of the dojo/students, it appears it would be an excellent place to train with a wealth of knowledge in Isshinryu Karate.  The name of the dojo is Isshinryu Karate Do & Self Defense.


Welcome to MartialTalk, bro. Sounds like an interesting place, I've always like Isshinryu.

Let us know what happens.


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## WhiteBeltNoStripe (Dec 17, 2022)

Buka said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk, bro. Sounds like an interesting place, I've always like Isshinryu.
> 
> Let us know what happens.


Oh, I've been a lurker for years on here and made a few posts from time to time.  Most of my posts revolve around finding a school...All this talk and I still haven't landed on a school due to travel.  I'm finally back in town full time and am seeking out the school and style for me.  I need to stop researching, going to schools and watching classes and just commit...I've wasted enough time!


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 17, 2022)

WhiteBeltNoStripe said:


> I stumbled across an Isshinryu dojo in Orange City, FL that seems great for anyone in Central Florida that may be looking for a place to train.  The owner/main instructor is an 8th dan and the senior student, who actually outranks the owner is a 9th dan.  It is a small dojo, with only 8-10 students I was told, all black belts (1st - 4th dans) and one colored belt.  With the credentials of the dojo/students, it appears it would be an excellent place to train with a wealth of knowledge in Isshinryu Karate.  The name of the dojo is Isshinryu Karate Do & Self Defense.


I am a student of Isshinryu in SE Michigan. Did you have questions we can help you with?


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## WhiteBeltNoStripe (Dec 17, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am a student of Isshinryu in SE Michigan. Did you have questions we can help you with?


It sounds as if this school is extremely traditional.  It was mentioned there are written tests, essays and books to be read at every level in addition to the actual testing in the dojo, which includes random questions during.  Is that normal?


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## isshinryuronin (Dec 18, 2022)

I Googled the school WhiteBelt referred to and read of their "Grand Master."  I have not heard of Sensei Holubecki and could find no info about his lineage (perhaps I didn't dig deep enough, though it seems to me that credit and respect should be given to one's teacher on their website.) I find this odd.  There are (way too) many 9th and10th degrees in Isshinryu, a situation that, IMO, is not beneficial to the system.  

The lack of a unified organizational structure in the system, dating from the late1960's in the USA, has led to a plethora (finally got a chance to use this word) of "Grand Masters."  Each splinter organization has their own 9th and 10th degree, and there are _many_ splinter organizations.  Not to say some are not actually deserving of such rank and title, but there are some I would not recognize as such.  I don't know where Sensei Holubecki would fit in as I'm not familiar with him and his background, but lost track of all the Isshinryu masters long ago.  Too many now to count.

My perspective is based on there being only one _Soke _(equivalent to "grand master" and is the proper title) when I started, and that was Isshinryu's founder, Tatsuo Shimabuku, himself.   (Yeah, I'm old, having started in the mid 60's.)  After he died, his son, Kichiro, assumed the role, and soon after, Tatsuo's son-in-law, Angi Uezu was acclaimed by many as a/the Master of Isshinryu.  After that, the dam burst and there began a flood of masters here in the USA.  Currently, I claim Angi's (and I use his first name with the utmost of respect) protoge, Tsuyoshi Uechi, as my master and his senior student as my sensei.

There have been, and are, some great American Isshinryu sensei who are called soke or grand master by their students and have earned their loyalty and respect.  But the main thing in my book is to retain the teachings and principles of the original intent of Okinawan karate and not pay much attention to who calls himself a "Grand Master."  I think my lineage allows me to do that.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 18, 2022)

WhiteBeltNoStripe said:


> It sounds as if this school is extremely traditional.  It was mentioned there are written tests, essays and books to be read at every level in addition to the actual testing in the dojo, which includes random questions during.  Is that normal?


I can't say what's normal or not. Every dojo is different. Our dojo has written tests in addition to performance requirements for each belt under black. First degree black belt requires an essay. Past that it's just physical requirements.  However, nothing wrong with the requirements you mentioned.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 18, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I Googled the school WhiteBelt referred to and read of their "Grand Master." I have not heard of Sensei Holubecki and could find no info about his lineage (perhaps I didn't dig deep enough, though it seems to me that credit and respect should be given to one's teacher on their website.) I find this odd.  There are (way too) many 9th and10th degrees in Isshinryu, a situation that, IMO, is not beneficial to the system.
> 
> The lack of a unified organizational structure in the system, dating from the late1960's in the USA, has led to a plethora (finally got a chance to use this word) of "Grand Masters."  Each splinter organization has their own 9th and 10th degree, and there are _many_ splinter organizations.  Not to say some are not actually deserving of such rank and title, but there are some I would not recognize as such.  I don't know where Sensei Holubecki would fit in as I'm not familiar with him and his background, but lost track of all the Isshinryu masters long ago.  Too many now to count.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I think we are very much of like mind.

However, GM Holubecki is a member of the Isshinryu Hall of Fame, a couple years before my Sensei. That has some value, in my estimation.  I've seen a performance of his Seiunchin kata on YouTube, nothing outlandish or weird. Different than us, yes, because isn't that always the way.

My lineage is Mitchum and Harrill sensei. I used to work with Master Angi in Okinawa, in 1983, but did not train with him. Much respect.


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## isshinryuronin (Dec 18, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Agreed. I think we are very much of like mind.
> 
> However, GM Holubecki is a member of the Isshinryu Hall of Fame, a couple years before my Sensei. That has some value, in my estimation.  I've seen a performance of his Seiunchin kata on YouTube, nothing outlandish or weird. Different than us, yes, because isn't that always the way.
> 
> My lineage is Mitchum and Harrill sensei. I used to work with Master Angi in Okinawa, in 1983, but did not train with him. Much respect.


There are a lot of hall of fame members, some probably should not be there and many who are not but should be.  I do not personally put a lot of value to it, thinking it more of a social club thing, but that's just my impression.  I did see Holubecki's Seiunchin kata and it was pretty solid for the most part.  Still, I wonder who promoted him to "GM", or for that matter, 9th, 8th, or even 7th degree black.  I still think one's master and main sensei should be noted in any biography of someone claiming high rank, not only to establish credentials, but out of respect, but again, that's just my opinion. 

Sensei Mitchum was one of the first of Tatsuo's American blackbelts - a tough and solid practitioner, but he may not have been, like most of those early Marine pioneers, privy to many of the deeper elements of the style.  But that's just the way it was.  Sensei Harrill, coming later on, had the opportunity to delve deeper into the essence of Okinawan karate and took advantage of it, getting into realistic bunkai.  Both men were giants of Isshinryu in their own way.

I have seen many videos of Angi throughout his career and love the personality he put into his karate.  I would have loved to spend time with him.  He is quite old and infirmed now, though Master Uechi, his protoge, visits him regularly as does my sensei on his yearly trips to Okinawa.  Such is respect.


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## Buka (Dec 20, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I Googled the school WhiteBelt referred to and read of their "Grand Master." I have not heard of Sensei Holubecki and could find no info about his lineage (perhaps I didn't dig deep enough, though it seems to me that credit and respect should be given to one's teacher on their website.) I find this odd.  There are (way too) many 9th and10th degrees in Isshinryu, a situation that, IMO, is not beneficial to the system.
> 
> The lack of a unified organizational structure in the system, dating from the late1960's in the USA, has led to a plethora (finally got a chance to use this word) of "Grand Masters."  Each splinter organization has their own 9th and 10th degree, and there are _many_ splinter organizations.  Not to say some are not actually deserving of such rank and title, but there are some I would not recognize as such.  I don't know where Sensei Holubecki would fit in as I'm not familiar with him and his background, but lost track of all the Isshinryu masters long ago.  Too many now to count.
> 
> ...


I knew Chester (Holubecki) back in the day. He ran an open Karate tournament every year that I used to go to.
He was a pretty nice guy and did well with what he had to work with.


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## WhiteBeltNoStripe (Dec 21, 2022)

I asked the Sensei some general questions regarding advancement and testing standards at the dojo.  He mentioned a student must have a minimum 40 classes between tests, usually requiring more to fully know and understand the material.  With regular attendance and testing, one could prepare to test for black in 5-6 years.  It sounds like this truly is a great school, with a lot of experienced practitioners as I mentioned previously.  Most of them are retired military and train regularly at three days a week.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 23, 2022)

WhiteBeltNoStripe said:


> I asked the Sensei some general questions regarding advancement and testing standards at the dojo.  He mentioned a student must have a minimum 40 classes between tests, usually requiring more to fully know and understand the material.  With regular attendance and testing, one could prepare to test for black in 5-6 years.  It sounds like this truly is a great school, with a lot of experienced practitioners as I mentioned previously.  Most of them are retired military and train regularly at three days a week.


Seems reasonable. I'd definitely consider it if I were in your position. Maybe attend some classes as a spectator if you can. Much can be seen about a Dojo's culture by watching and listening to how they interact with each other. Good luck!


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