# "Selling" Systema



## KyleShort

No I don't mean selling rank or any of the other negative conotations of selling in the martial arts.  To a degree, every martial art sells (promotes) itself through video clips on the web.  I see this as a problem area for Systema.

I, like many other martial artists, look at the clips I see of Systema and think "What a joke!" "He barely tapped the guy and he crumpled...it would not happen like that in real life."  Of course I have never experienced Systema in person and I know that the response to this thread will be to tell me to go experience it first hand.  But that is not the point of this.  The real question that I have is, *do Systema practitioners see that their art, at least on video, looks very unrealistic and almost coreographed?...how do they over come this when exposing Systema to the uneducated public, with out hands on demonstration?*

Perhaps I have already answered my question because I am already sold by virtue of curiosity.  I cannot wait to go to the San Francisco seminar to get a feel for what it really is.  I for one recognize that I have only learned a few ways to train, not all of the ways.  I also see that I may very well be pleasantly suprised and become a Systema practicioner myself  =)

Thanks


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## Arthur

It is perhaps easier for you to answer this question than one of us. Let us assume for a minute that what you see on video is completely real. Other than actual hands on demonstration, how do we convince you? 

Im not sure any art really convinces people of anything through video. Video isnt a convincer; its a window to see what some of the things you might do while studying a given art are. In theory it is a window into the practices of the art. If I taught Wing Chun I might put up a video of a solo form, if I taught a FMA I might put up a video of a flow drill, if I taught Model Mugging I might show someone kicking the groin of a cumbersome and well padded training partner. It is very rare (if not unknown) for the practitioners of an art to place video of actual fights online. After all it would be a legal nightmare.

The majority of the RMA clips on the web are of a similar nature. They are of various training practices. I dont see people criticizing Wing Chun clips for not having an opponent fighting back when they show solo forms, I dont see people criticizing FMA clips for partaking in unrealistic cooperative practice when showing flow drills. For some reason however, it seems that people assume every RMA clip is supposed to be our claim of an actual street situation. Seems a bit unfair to me, but heck fair isnt really part of life. Unfairness doesnt really bother me that much.

What does bother me is, damning someone for being successful. If you really break down the basic criticism you hear of RMA on the web, it comes down to this. That stuff must be fake, because it seems to work! That line of reasoning, is a bit of a thorn in our sides, but not nearly as damaging  to us as it is to those who make the actual statement.. If this is the rational that condemns our art, then the inverse postulate arises as well our art is good, because it doesnt work well.

In the small scheme, this line of reasoning causes me some occasional business grief, and some personal frustration, but in the large scheme of things, I find this line of reason to be quite disheartening. For as people reason about there martial art, they are likely to reason about politics, relationships and other more important matters, and that is truly frightening.

So if video clips arent capable of being convincers, what are they good for? Well PT Barnum always said there is no such thing as bad publicity. There are going to be plenty of people who will see a clip and think its too good to be true. Out of those people, some will hope it is possible that something can be like that, and there are those that will hope there cant. The latter will stay home; the former will come and investigate a hands-on situation.

Id rather have my school filled with those that can embrace hope, than those that fear it.

Arthur


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## Zitterbacke

It is often said that Systema has the worst marketing of all MAs. And I think there is some truth in it. Watching videos without knowing the context is misleading. But who is to blame? The one who watches or the one that offers the videos (especially on the net)?
When I see someone attack at a relativ slow speed I'm inclined to doubt wether it will work in reality. Since many don't understand this as the training mode which prevents injuries and optimizes "body-consciousness" they take it for unrealistic.
I haven't seen commercial videos yet. And therefore cannot estimate their effect on the beholder. But much which is to be seen while slow sparring must undoubtedly look weird.


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## Yakov

Arthur
Imho,
in order for techniques that you practice to work in real life, where your opponent really tries to hit you, is to be prepaired for this situations.
But when your practice consist only of a theory you wil never actualy learn the move.
So to realy prepare yourself you have to spare (or have an actualy friendly combat where each opponent tries to actualy HIT another)
they might wear protective gear, they might have rules prohibiting from hitting in the face\groing\what ever
but they have to try to HIT each other.

As far as i've seen in systema classes you don't have this.

The only thing that happend is you show the way the hit gonna go and not actualy hit.

maybe i'm wrong and you do have actualy practice?

anyways if you guys have some clips of systema please post them here i would love to see them.

---------------------
Yakov,
www.nysambo.com


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## jellyman

"As far as i've seen in systema classes you don't have this."

How many classes have you gone to?

Arthur's site has a clip of him hitting someone. Guy collapses. Nobody believes it. What do you do? Hit more people, I guess.

Arthur's site has clip of him beating someone bigger trying to wrestle him. Guy gets dominated. Nobody believes it. What do you do? Wrestle more people, I guess.

I put up a clip of a guy winning a sport fight. Nobody believes he is systema, even though I point out material from tapes actually used in the fight, and even though he is certified to teach now, and in fact runs a club. What can you do? Invite people to your classes, I guess.

Systema does not look like a lot of other MA's. So of course people who practice one of these others will feel offended that what they do is not in evidence, or cling like limpets to anything they see as recognizable. Thus "The only good stuff is the stuff we already do - who needs it?".

The clips I post are for other systema people. If you are not a systema person and you take offense to them, well frankly I don't care. Vlad posts clips for his people too. And does it turn away students? Well, if it does it's a good thing, because his club is very popular as it is - running out of room, in fact. Not to mention the amount of time he spends flying around the world doing seminars - but of course, nobody will believe that either... :idunno: 

As for this theory business, well all I know is I get guys with rank in other styles walking into my place to learn, many of whom don't get the slow sparring game at all, and just GO. This has not been an issue, really. Of course, I am not in the business of making movies, I am too busy having fun.

But there is some other clips on my web site (see my profile) and if you go through the affiliates web sites as listed on Vladimir's page, you will see more. Some of them are pretty fast-paced.

But the best way is to simply ask to spar the instructor.

[edit -  to see my website, click my profile, there is a drop-down menu]


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## Yakov

Thank you very much for clips
they are very interesting but very strange though
in the first clip is it a practice of rolls?
if not y then the guy rolls every time the second guy lifts his hand?

i like the last one very interesing.

on Arthur's page 
if under guys collpases you mean when he got hit in sollar point (or whatever this point called) but that will happend to ANYONE if you hit him in this point 
when i was 7 years old everyone in our yard knew that.

They guys who was trying to wrestle with Arthur didn't wrestle.
he didn't even try. 

about the guy who won the fight i have only one question:
you have to show second by second where he used systema and where he did not
how about just show a fight with SYSTEMA only?
someone who trained systema won a fight, he doesn't have to start a fight just win it.
as someone said in one of the posts
systema gave you a good golf swing but you still have to know how to play golf

systema showed you what you can do in theory but you still have to learn how to do it.
and the best way to learn is PRACTICE!

P.S. I didn't train systema, but i've seen alot of their classes
for a year i think
P.P.S. I do respect all of the teachers there they all practiced alot (and i mean practiced)

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Yakov,
www.nysambo.com


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## jellyman

"They guys who was trying to wrestle with Arthur didn't wrestle.
he didn't even try. "

How do you know this? The guy is not a student, according his own testimony he drove 8 hours and he really did try. Are you suggesting that Arthur was too succesful for you to believe, ie made it look too easy? Well, you know there's only one way to find out...

'if not y then the guy rolls every time the second guy lifts his hand?'

He knows if contact is made, he will be offbalanced or take a strike, so he seeks to escape on his own terms. I have a little article posted on my web site abou that clip, why not read it?

"about the guy who won the fight i have only one question:
you have to show second by second where he used systema and where he did not
how about just show a fight with SYSTEMA only?"

He was at this point cross-training in systema for a year, so to say it was all systema would be intellectually dishonest. He is the same guy on the last clip, btw, but after 5 years and a steady shedding of much of what he did before and in fact a complete revamp of how he views grappling, I feel more it is more honest now to call that systema.

'someone who trained systema won a fight, he doesn't have to start a fight just win it."

If you look at Ken Good's site, you will find some police camera footage of guys trained by him using systema on the street. Is this what you wanted?

"as someone said in one of the posts
systema gave you a good golf swing but you still have to know how to play golf"

Yes, that was me who said that. But you misinterpret - I said if I swing the club, I am playing golf. If I do MMA, I am doing MMA - it's the point of the excercise. If I was to do systema (as I see it) in an MMA event, it would be 1) do something (throw or whatever) 2) leave the ring while he is recovering. The minute I go back to finish him off, it's not really systema anymore. The purpose has changed. I am playing golf.


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## jellyman

"how about just show a fight with SYSTEMA only?"

Life is too short to be mucking about with cameras. The last clip was from a seminar in which all volunteers were invited to go hard. You find the last clip interesting - do you feel it was cooperative in any way? Just straightforward stuff, as far as I can see


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## jellyman

"you have to show second by second where he used systema and where he did not"

Actually, he used it throughout, but these were the objectively observable things he used. How am I going to show relaxation, breathing, movement, and form as distinct on video - you can't feel relaxation, see breath, and everyone moves, and everyone stands up...


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## Jackal

_"do Systema practitioners see that their art, at least on video, looks very unrealistic and almost choreographed?"_

Hell, I thought it was choreographed when I had my first exposure *in person*. Having had over a decade of hard contact, MMA training, I saw Vladimir dropping people with feather-light touches. I said to myself, I know what it takes to make a man fall down. That isnt even possible. Physics just says NO. I went up to Vladimir and said, Do it to me.

Turned out I didnt know **** about physics or about what it took to make a man fall down.  

_"how do they over come this when exposing Systema to the uneducated public, with out hands on demonstration?"_

Didnt think it was a concern. If people want knowledge, they'll search for it. When I look at the videos, Its obvious why it works because now I know what Im looking at and what to look for. It just doesnt fit the model of what some people consider reality.

If I've learned one thing on the path, it's that conventional wisdom, _isn't._


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## Yakov

You can see when person is trying to do something or when he just put his arms around and rests.
if you don't see it then either you never wrestled or something wrong with me.
All Arthur did is move away from him and he didn't follow couple of times he just fell for no reason.

In my expirinece person standing person is much faster then person on the ground so by rolling away you open your back.
if the guy would continue to attack he would just kick the rolling person.

Would you mind givving me the link to Ken Good's site?

Ok let's use your new example
person is trying to kick the bejessoous out of you on the street.
not just punch and leave
but hit you untill your not breathing or something.

unless he is drunk and moves very slow there is not a big chance you can evade his attacks.
or he grips you and belive me most of the time he will grab you.
Ask anyone who participated in fights ask even Vladimir or Michael they was in army they know what it is.

Real opponent and the guys who you practice with in slow motion have a huge gap in between.

If you really want to be prepared go to the ring once in a while with a friend, put on the gloves and go.
or ask someone from your class to stay after and spare a little bit you will feel the difference
but then again if you add sparing to systema you'll get sambo.
--------------
Yakov,
www.nysambo.com


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## jellyman

"person is trying to kick the bejessoous out of you on the street.
not just punch and leave
but hit you untill your not breathing or something."

Yes? I didn't say continuous attacks don't happen. Where did you get this impression? My point is that simply speaking, escape is not an option in the ring, or rather it is an option, but it's called 'giving up'.

"In my expirinece person standing person is much faster then person on the ground so by rolling away you open your back.
if the guy would continue to attack he would just kick the rolling person."

We certainly train with people kicking at you as you roll. Often 3 at a time.

"Would you mind givving me the link to Ken Good's site?"

He is listed on Vladimir's affiliates page.

"unless he is drunk and moves very slow there is not a big chance you can evade his attacks."

You think evasion is impossible? Then you NEED to spar with Vladimir or Mikhail. You don't know what possible is.

"or he grips you and belive me most of the time he will grab you.
Ask anyone who participated in fights ask even Vladimir or Michael they was in army they know what it is."

Again, this assumption that systema = no sparring, or slow only.

Do you think the guy in the JJJ clip cannot spar? Do you think he trains unrealistically? He is the fellow I train with.

"Real opponent and the guys who you practice with in slow motion have a huge gap in between."

Again, this assumption that it is all slow motion. I don't know what they do in whatever club you visit, but in Toronto and my club in Hamilton, the tempo varies greatly. Slow is to learn, fast is to polish.

"If you really want to be prepared go to the ring once in a while with a friend, put on the gloves and go."

Again, this assumption that systema = no sparring, or slow only.

Do you think the guy in the JJJ clip cannot spar? Do you think he trains unrealistically? How do you think he got those skills? We spar as realistically now as we did when he trained for that fight.

"or ask someone from your class to stay after and spare a little bit you will feel the difference
but then again if you add sparing to systema you'll get sambo."

You are assuming much, but I don't recall ever seeing Borba or Buza strikes in SAMBO, or for that matter lock-assisted throws. Perhaps this is the point of all this? That systema is "nothing special" and that Sambo is "real"?

Again: go and spar an instructor.

What is most amazing is that you ignore what I said before - new guys with training come to my club all the time and go hard. Yet they are handled, not just by me or Furtry, but all of us.

I think perhaps it is better if you talk authoritatively about what you know. Systema is not one of these things.


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## Furtry

All I see is "Systema blha blha blha MMA blhablhabla slow/not real blha blha compete blha blha doesn't work." 
Translation; <Can you use it to compete, if not, it's not real>

To those I say life isnt a sport. And I personally dont care what you think, as youre not standing in front of me. Translation <walk the walk. Cause anybody can talk.>


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## RobP

I had a similar discussion on another board recently along similar lines. I reffered to a clip on our site at  www.systemauk.com   which features Mikhail working with a very experienced MMA guy. The response? "It's all staged". What can you say?


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## Furtry

RobP said:
			
		

> I had a similar discussion on another board recently along similar lines. I reffered to a clip on our site at  www.systemauk.com   which features Mikhail working with a very experienced MMA guy. The response? "It's all staged". What can you say?


Which clip RobP?


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## jellyman

I should add, Ken's site has been rearranged, I will post the link to it when I get home. 

Furtry's the guy in the JJJ competition, and the guy showing mount escape, btw.

Please tell him how unrealistic he is 

And then show us a similar video with you, and tell us how it is SAMBO, as opposed to Judo, wrestling, kickboxing, or BJJ... Please refrain from isolating any movements in the video and then referring to some compendium of SAMBO throws or locks, or some tehcnical detail that distinguishes it from the above mentioned arts, as then it's not ALL SAMBO, just little bits of SAMBO.

[edit - then we will make comments from the bleachers about how it wouldn't work on us, or it is obvious you paid him to let yuo win, or some other folderol...]


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## KyleShort

Thanks a ton to all of the participants of this thread.  I am pleased that you have all seen past what could be construed as a slander in my post, and instead see it for what it is...an exploratory question.

The genesis of my question, is that after looking at the videos on the net, I feel bad for Systema.  I say this in the sense that I know how the general public must respond to such videos.  I liken it to the Kyushu Kitsu and Fa Jing.  The first video I saw had Vladimir parrying a knife thrust with his shoulder and then "tapping" the assailant in the mid section to send him flipping through the air.  Naturally, as an experienced MAist (and recent Escrimador) I scoffed at what I saw.

Before I move on with this post let me say that I think my original question has been answered...there does not appear to be a way to over come the issue.  Systema seems to be one of those arts that you simply must experience to understand/believe/trust (what ever else it may be called).  

For me, the videos have sparked a curiosity in me, which is why I AM seeking out Systema instruction.  When I look at Systema I see a lot of what seems to me to be hogwash, but at the same time something deep inside me tickles and says, "But that's how I move." -- so is there something to it that I am not allowing myself to see?

I think though, that I am most interested because of the extensive training I have in Bujinkan.  Hmm...I think I will start another thread about this =)


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## jellyman

thank you for not taking my ill-humour too badly


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## WillFightForBeer

Since I can finally call myself a Systema student (yeah, one seminar does that to you), maybe I can give some input from a Neophyte. From what I have seen, Systema takes a very practical approach to what can be considered the supernatural. If you don't believe what you see in the videos or the demonstrations, then to each his own, I'd suppose. I don't think Systema is actively seeking students when I'm sure that everyone feels fine with the amount of people involved right now. 

Commercialization=Mcdojoization.

By watering down the videos to make them "look practical" you take away from the actual System. Why change it at all?


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## Mark Jakabcsin

".....they might wear protective gear, they might have rules prohibiting from hitting in the face\groing\what ever
but they have to try to HIT each other.

As far as i've seen in systema classes you don't have this."

Ahhh, what classes have you been too? None would be my guess from the comment above. I can rarely remember a Systema class that I didn't get hit, frequently and regularly. 'Systema practice doesn't involve hitting'....what utter nonsense. 

mark


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## jellyman

http://strategosvideo1.com/PCRvids.htm

The first 4 clips underneath the Live Camera / Car Camera Footage section are police videos. There's some officer interviews too.


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## Yakov

Yes i assumed that Systema doesn't have sparring
but that assumptions is based on what i've seen.
and i've seen alot of video clips of training and actual classes that i observed not participated.

If i m wrong and there is actual sparring in Systema then sorry i didn't know...

You practice kicking while rolling or while on the ground? 

checked again, there is no Ken Good on Vladimir's page.

Vladimir or Mikhail are they the only people who can show evasion?

About Sambo - ask Vladimir.
I might be wrong but i think he should know sambo.

I am not trying to say that one is better then other,
all i m trying to say is in order to LEARN something,
you have to practice it, and demonstrating the punch is not the same as the actual punch.

I can say the same to you,
people from systema come to us we show them how to make locks how to execute throws. I call it knowledge exchange.

I agree systema is not one of the things that i know
i m not arguing that, i m arguing the way it is being practiced.

Furtry 
i might be wrong but people judge if the system (not SYSTEMA) works if it has some results, maybe that's why people tend to compete.
What results, Systema can show?

I would say that life is a game.
Again i m not trying to say that systema is bad you both misinterpreted me.


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## Mark Jakabcsin

"i might be wrong but people judge if the system (not SYSTEMA) works if it has some results, maybe that's why people tend to compete.
What results, Systema can show?"

After reading your post I don't feel that Furtry or I misunderstood your posts. Your intent has been very clear. Honesty with ones self is a cornerstone of learning Systema.

As for theyour quote above, results are a personal matter that need to be experienced first hand. Looking for someone else to validate or confirm results for you is weak and shallow. If you want to know, seek out Vlad, voice your concerns and step up to the plate. 

With in the first 10 minutes of meeting Vlad I knew speaking up was foolish, BUT when I was given the chance I pushed him and got my answers, first hand (or fist as the case may be). I did the same with Mikhail and once again got my answer, first hand. Nothing else would satisfy you, nor should it. The best advice is to stop watching video clips and step up with your questions.....in person. Experince the RESULTS.

mark


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## Furtry

> Furtry
> i might be wrong but people judge if the system (not SYSTEMA) works if it has some results, maybe that's why people tend to compete.
> What results, Systema can show?
> 
> I would say that life is a game.


When a drunk is kicking you in the face as you lay in your pool of piss and vomit there is no referee to save you or declare a winner. There are no judges awarding points or medals, only pain and maybe the ultimate truth of death.
The results I can show are the ones that are proven to all by the fact that I am here, telling you that, due to Systema that drunk never succeeded in hurting me.

My last point is this; _*If I have to sell it to you, you never wanted it in the first place. I also don't care if you buy it or not.*_


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## RobP

Hi Mr F

Mostly this one
http://www.systemauk.com/video/mrfbhit1.mpg

The guy in the clip is Floyd Brown, he's won a couple of Thai boxing & Kick boxing international titles. He also features in:

http://www.systemauk.com/video/mrfbk1.mpg

http://www.systemauk.com/video/mrfbk2.mpg

http://www.systemauk.com/video/mrfbkick1.mpg

When he first met Mikhail he tried the fast route and ended up injured.

Here's some people working a little faster

http://www.systemauk.com/video/mass2.mpg

cheers


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## jellyman

How do I verify results...

Honest training. How well can I do something against an opponent trying to do something to me, and trying to stop me doing it to them. How do I do against people in and out of the club? Against guys I used to spar against? Against people the same size or bigger? Against people with more experience?

FWIW over the time I've taken systema I've gone from a guy who couldn't throw a yellow belt my size to someone who's thrown black belts more than my size. I've gotten standing locks against people I felt I had no business doing it to. And not slow either.

My observation is that for me, the most difficult people are the ones who have done systema and gotten more systema hours in, especially with Vlad or Mikhail. It is as simple as that.

"You practice kicking while rolling or while on the ground?"

That could be taken 2 ways, but yes to both ways. We kick people who are down, and the people who are down will kick as well.

"Vladimir or Mikhail are they the only people who can show evasion?"

No.

'checked again, there is no Ken Good on Vladimir's page.'

the site is under his partner's name, however, I posted the url in my last post. If you hunt around you will see that PCR is an abbreviated systema course for police.

Vladimir is not a Sambist, although a few of his students have been.


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## Jackal

RobP,
What kind of codec do I need in order to view the .mpg's?
WMP keeps telling me that there's an error trying to download the codec.

Thanks,




-Jackal


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## jellyman

Try running AVIcodec on the mpeg - it'll tell you the codec you need, and give you a web location to find it. Check the tools section of DVDRHelp.com for free download of AVICodec


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## Furtry

Yap, codec error. :idunno:


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## RobP

I can view them on Windows Media Player 9, and that's about as technical as I get when it comes to web clips  :idunno: 

AFAIK they were created in the same format as the other clips on the site, at least I used the same programme.

cheers


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## KyleShort

It's pretty clear that I need to experience Systema first hand in order to appreciate videos like this.  I look at them and I am still sceptacle:

Mass Attack: For the most part the people are all half heartedly floundering around.  The blonde haired chap in the middle is the only one that appears to be fighting but even he seems to pull every punch before they land.  In fact, you be hard pressed to find any strike in this video that landed.

The Other Videos:  I like the kicking defenses with Mikhail (sp?) and the tall boxer looking guy.  But certainly from a lay persons point of view the rest of the vids look very fabricated.  Almost WWF. 

Here's a few observations that I have made when watching Systema videos:

1. In every video that I have on Systema, the attackers hand strikes all seem to come from the outside in, like a haymaker.
2. The techniques always seem to work.
3. The attacker does not seem interested in preserving themself.  For example, in the video with the large, knife wielding guy and Mikhail (sp?)...he thrusts once with the knife and then sits there while the technique is applied on him...in the "real" situations that I have experienced, no one attacks once.  This guy should have at least retracted his hand to start another attack, or followed the knife thrust with a check to Mikhail's(sp?) hand.  It could still be done just as slow while adding an extra element of realism.  Also, when people go down they tend to hang on to whatever they can grab, but I never see any example's of the the attacker fighting the throw/takedown in Systema videos.  It seems like once the technique begins they give up and put all of their focus on rolling out of the throw.

Don't get me wrong, in bujinkan we rolled out of everything too.  However, it was always interesting to mix it up and resist the take downs.  Most people had trained so long against oponents that rolled out (aka ninjitsu folk) that they were not able to throw a person that resisted and grabbed onto the limbs and clothing of the one executing the throw (aka most of the world).

Like I said, it I need to experience it =)


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## RobP

Hi Kyle

The problem with many of the clips is that they are from instructional material or situations. The knife clip you mention, for example - the pause was while Mikhail was explaining what he was doing. I'll be working on getting more workshop and class clips up over the next few weeks to hopefully show more "live" work.

As far as grabbing your thrower goes - funny enough Mikhail had us working a drill this weekend where you are thrown but then throw your attacker on the way down.

I agree that take down / throwing work needs to be done at all levels of resistance - the problem is in getting training partners who can take falls at speed   

I think if you check it out, you will like it. A siezabel part of the regular UK crew are / were bujinkan people.

cheers


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## Yakov

OKey let's start.
to Mark 


> i might be wrong but people judge if the system


i meant people in general any 1 who judges systema and as i said in my preveious post i do not.

to Furtry


> The results I can show are the ones that are proven to all by the fact that I am here, telling you that, due to Systema that drunk never succeeded in hurting me.


well i m here too aint i?
plus to that i can say that there was alot of times when i was in bad situations that i got out of very nicely,
plus to that i have alot of friends who had bad situations and they got out of them.
some of them trains Systema, some trains Sambo, most of them don't train at all.
does that proves that the system of NOT TRAINING is working?

to RobP
thanks for clips
is it something wrong with my connection or server gives out only with the speed 10k\s?
I might be wrong but i think in mass2.mpg they guy just blew up and started hitting not training but hitting
and the guy he was hitting did got hurt
and it took 4 people to stop him.

to all
All you judjing me to say something bad about systema
First i never did say anything bad
i only said that the way it is teached or shown looks weak.
If you all think that it's the best way and the only way possible then i will never be able to prove you wrong nor will you prove me wrong.
I have my belives you have yours.


In our school we try to learn from other schools, bjj, judo, freestyle wrestling
do you guys do that?

to Jellyman
whats FWIW ?
Stratego is a different name for Systema?
Vladimir is not a sambist but i belive he was in Special ops
and i might be wrong but i think they learn Sambo.


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## RobP

"to RobP
thanks for clips
is it something wrong with my connection or server gives out only with the speed 10k\s?"

Sorry, can't help! My technical knowledge is very limited!

"I might be wrong but i think in mass2.mpg they guy just blew up and started hitting not training but hitting and the guy he was hitting did got hurt
and it took 4 people to stop him."

Well Barry is Irish so he soemtimes get carried away a bit     . The other guys were just telling him to calm down a bit, not trying to take him out. This was the first stage of that particular drill so everyone was supposed to be going slow-ish to start.

"In our school we try to learn from other schools, bjj, judo, freestyle wrestling
do you guys do that?"

Students in my class include a boxer, a few doormen, karate guys, kung fu guys, basically people from many styles. I'd say 80% of our people were epxerienced (5+ years) in other arts. In addition I've regularly trained over the years with friends from other arts.

"Vladimir is not a sambist but i belive he was in Special opsand i might be wrong but i think they learn Sambo."

Or Systema.


----------



## Jackal

Man, now I really want to see those videos. Cant wait till I get home so I can give jellymans suggestion a try.



> i only said that the way it is teached or shown looks weak.



Outwardly, I agree, some of the soft work does look weak if youre not sure what the people are trying to accomplish. 

The definition of sparring is kind of loose here. If you mean, Do Systema practitioners test themselves by having people in the class genuinely and honestly try to attack them? then, yes, we do spar. If you mean sparring as in two people, facing each other and circling, mono a mono, then no, chances are you wont see that. One tests survivability in an assault, the other is about pride fighting and competing.  

There's a good chance you just haven't observed any "hard" or "short" work performed in a class.


----------



## Furtry

> well i m here too aint i?
> plus to that i can say that there was alot of times when i was in bad situations that i got out of very nicely,
> plus to that i have alot of friends who had bad situations and they got out of them.
> some of them trains Systema, some trains Sambo, most of them don't train at all.
> does that proves that the system of NOT TRAINING is working?


My point is that I don't need to compete to prove Systema is effective.
Or do your friends have "NO TARINING" style competitions to show how effective they are.


----------



## jellyman

First things first - seems to be MPEG2/DVD which means you need a DVD codec

http://www.softpedia.com/public/cat/11/2/2/11-2-2-40.shtml

That one's free

If it's MPEG1, not sure what to do for free, most players already support that.??


----------



## jellyman

> whats FWIW ?



For What It's Worth



> Stratego is a different name for Systema?





> Affiliate Instructors
> 
> Missouri
> 
> 
> Instructor(s): Drew Bowman
> 705B SE Melody Lane, #312
> Missouri, MO
> United States
> Phone: 1-888-569-5444
> Email: dbow9@earthlink.net
> Web: *www.strategosinternational.com*


 
You can find that information here:

http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=affiliates&loc=us

Ken is an associate [edit - ie of strategos]. They have a forum, you can link to the vids from there and verify what I say.



> Vladimir is not a sambist but i belive he was in Special ops
> and i might be wrong but i think they learn Sambo.



I thought so too, but I asked him, and he has no formal background in sambo. Nor is this mentioned in his interviews. So in his case no. The fact is Rupokashni Boi varies from unit to unit. RobP met a spetsnaz unit in Moscow this summer that only does systema for H2H, what was the name again Rob?


----------



## jellyman

> In our school we try to learn from other schools, bjj, judo, freestyle wrestling do you guys do that?



I have worked out with (as in sparred) guys with backgrounds in Sambo, bjj, wrestling, muy thai, kalari payat, judo, boxing, aikido, aikijujutsu, japanese jujutsu, karate, kickboxing, wing chun, tae kwon do, Kali, hapkido, tai chi, and probably others I am missing.

I personally have formally studied/achieved rank in boxing, japanse jujutsu, judo, boxing, and karate, over the cumulative span of 10 years, the last 6 steady (i e in sucession). I have been doing systema for 5 since all that.

Some of the guys who come to our own little club have multiple backgrounds, quite serious MA people from the beginning.

Given unlimited time and wealth, I would probably check out catch wrestling with Ceccine or maybe go to Sheng Wu. I'll be working out with Jimmy Wu's guys this summer in Toronto as part of a reunion with one of my jujutsu brothers.

There is no prohibition against working out with others. We are all adults, we can do whatever we want. Systema is a very egalitarian subculture.

[edited for clarity]


----------



## Furtry

> 1. In every video that I have on Systema, the attackers hand strikes all seem to come from the outside in, like a haymaker.
> 2. The techniques always seem to work.
> 3. The attacker does not seem interested in preserving themself. For example, in the video with the large, knife wielding guy and Mikhail (sp?)...he thrusts once with the knife and then sits there while the technique is applied on him...in the "real" situations that I have experienced, no one attacks once. This guy should have at least retracted his hand to start another attack, or followed the knife thrust with a check to Mikhail's(sp?) hand. It could still be done just as slow while adding an extra element of realism. Also, when people go down they tend to hang on to whatever they can grab, but I never see any example's of the the attacker fighting the throw/takedown in Systema videos. It seems like once the technique begins they give up and put all of their focus on rolling out of the throw.


Please see the following clip, "Moscow2K1", on my site. At the end there is a demo of a live knife attack. This is an explination by the man in it (NYCRonin)



> I checked out Jellyman's site (sorry that I havent visited it before, J-Man) and I seem to be the 'member of the constabulary' he mentions.
> I have been registered in Bullshido for awhile, find it interesting but have never posted before, I believe. Since my experience in Moscow was mentioned, I will offer some details in an effort to flesh out that clip abit.
> At the time of the recording, I already had enough experience in the m.a. to know the difference between going light or heavy. Either doing a training exercise or going at it with speed and intent.
> I am a veteran of the NYC Department of Corrections by trade and, frankly; I was willing to risk a hammering to see just how effective the gentleman depicted there with me could be. For my own reasons and for the possible passing on of what I would have learned to others who face the physical violence inhearent in dealing with some of the extremely violent individuals incarcerated on the well known vacation spot known as Rikers Island.
> 
> As Jellyman mentions, Mr. Ryabco and I had already echanged an understanding that whatever I would do with him would be done forcefully, fast and with intent to hurt him (not that he seemed to be troubled by this) and I would take the responsability for any damages I might suffer. I tend to be a 'prove it to me' kind of guy and I would not, could not; waste the time and money invested to go to Moscow and come back with any 'what if' doubts in my mind.
> 
> The attack I attempted looks odd to many familiar with knife methods, and with good reason. I had already seen Ryabco handle attacks from others -- the basics (straight stab, icepick downward, right to left slash) and some stuff I remembered doing while in FMA (done by another MUCH more familiar with FMA than I).
> 
> Truthfully, I was abit surprised when Ryabco tossed that knife to me. He knew damn well that I now had a functional weapon in hand and I was no dabbler in m.a. and would try any sneaky stunt to test him. (This had already been established a few days before when he spent an hour, away from the regular training group; with me going at him. Striking, grappling, tried to bite him, tried to groin grab him -- the kind of stuff an inmate will do to a CO or another inmate. Never got him...no doubt in his ability...well, at least I managed to get him to break a sweat by the end of the exchange). I thought he was crazy to pick me out of the group -- I was sincerely going to try to hurt him. I was not going to try to kill him of course -- I am experienced enough to reasonably control how deep the attack would penetrate...reasonably, but there is no guarantee when bodies are in motion and a blade is involved.
> I was determined to make some contact though, I know there will be doubters and detractors to what I write here; but I know what I was determined to try. In retrospect, I must have been crazy. A foreign national, in Russia; a LEO at that -- poking a hole in a Spetsnaz Col.? What the hell was I thinking?
> 
> Anyway, since I had already seen Ryabco counter numerous m.a. knife work, I decided I would go 'gladiator school' on his smiling *** and attack with something that I had seen done numerous times by inmates during a 'shanking' (knife attack). Something I knew firsthand to be unorthodox and effective (thats why most m.a. have trouble recognizing this -- its a jailhouse tactic). Its an attack that I had practiced myself, after seeing the bloody results at work; and I often had used it to attack other m.a. when practicing knife work.
> 
> In a right lead position, blade in right hand; the idea is to move close enough to the target to bridge the gap with a simple burst forward. The hands start slightly before the feet. The left hand sweeps across the defenders arms/hands (moving r to l) to engage them and keep them from raising and blocking the right. The right moves l to r - in a slash to the neck/face area. when done by an experienced inmate - its sorta 'lather, rinse, repeat' and the slashing continues as the left keeps the forward pressure to move the defender backward. Its not fancy, its not conventional to most mainstream m.a. knife work. Just simple, basic Rikers Island 'ryu'.
> 
> Before the attack, I figured I would get in at least a touch and I could stop any further motion before I did too much damage -- but Ryabco would feel steel regardless. (And I would get my *** kicked by the Russians in the area afterward -- thus ending my investigation into Systema and provide an interesting life story, after I healed in NYC. How the hell I would have explained this to the DOC, I have no idea).
> 
> That was my mindset, my plan of attack and my attempt. All a total waste of time. As I began to extend my arms and begin the burst forward, Ryabco snaked his l arm between the two levels my arms were going to create and engaged the knifehand before the attack could develop. Sort of an attack into an attack. What the vid doesnt record well is what followed. Ryabcos body blocks the view of his r. fist cracking me, knuckles first; on the left side of my face - on the eyesocket edge/cheekbone area. No recording medium can repeat the *crunching* sound in my head when his fist made contact, and I remember feeling (in that far away slo-mo experience similar to a car crash "What the **** was that? Thats my face crunching!")
> In the meantime, his left encircles my r. arm and allows me be moved abit to my right. Then he uses the leverage to swing me back to my left as his right made damn solid contact to the area over my heart. (At this point, it was very much over. maybe some super conditioned athelete could have taken more punishment but after the shot to the head and the sledgehammer to the chest - I didnt want anymore than to have this guy as my friend).
> I remember the clip shows Ryabco moving to my left, bending me over abit and his delivering a right (I think it was a right) downward and forward palm strike to send me to the floor. (Thanks buddy, I was headed there anyway). I remember staying there, belly down; for a few moments -- I had no desire to try to get up and recieve a 'blessing' simliar to what he had given to me during our time together a few days before. Once I knew it was over, all I could think to do is extend my hands forward and clap a couple of times -- applause from the heart, I was glad it was over.
> Even at that, when I did get up; I tried a few more attacks but they werent really worth ****. I moved without commitment because the pain was setting in and the room was begining to do the electric slide. Mercifully, Ryabco had me give up the knife to another participant.
> 
> I was dazed for the rest of the day and hurt for days afterward with all the 'love' I had received from my new friend. He told a Russian friend (Seraphim) there that of all the particpants at this training opportunity - I was the only one he was 'afraid of'. When Seraphim told me this, I asked why he might be afraid of lil old me...after all, he had aquitted himself in fine form. Seraphims answer? 'No Rob, with the way you attacked him during training; he was afraid he would acidentally hit you too hard and seriously hurt you".
> 
> So, thats the story behind the clip. I offer it here for those who want to understand what they saw and what was on the attackers mind. Although this forum has its contingent of guys who seem to just be content with tearing into any post from who they consider an 'outsider' - I also have been in here enough to know that there are also those who have sincere curiousity about such things.
> Thats why I took the time to post my first hand experience.
> *************************************************************
> 
> As you can guess, I did not expect this post to ever be on this forum. I have been asked about that clip a number of times over the last few years and this is about as complete an account as I have to offer.
> _________________
> Rob Green
> SYSTEMA/New York
> www.rusanyc.com


----------



## Brenwulv

jellyman said:
			
		

> "They guys who was trying to wrestle with Arthur didn't wrestle.
> he didn't even try. "
> 
> How do you know this? The guy is not a student, according his own testimony he drove 8 hours and he really did try. Are you suggesting that Arthur was too succesful for you to believe, ie made it look too easy? Well, you know there's only one way to find out...




He may have driven a while and really did try, but it doesn't mean he knew anything about what he was trying to do. Simply bad form all around, no real technique at all(on the part of the wrestler).

Now, I'm in no way discrediting the skills and abilities of those who train in systema. I've seen things that make me wonder, but like has been said already, it's all in experiencing it, and I have not.

However, I have wrestled, and that guy is a poor example to point to and say, "Look, it works...."

Just my thoughts.

Joel


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## jellyman

So now, it can't be a resisting larger opponent, it has to be a technical resisting larger opponent... [edit - and I should add, isn't the point of martial skill supposed to be the ability to beat people bigger than yourself through superior skill? Now we hear the complaint that the other guy had less skill... Well, yes. So where did the smaller guy acquire his better skill?]

You want to see maybe Alexander Karelin? How technical are we talking here? [edit - Do you think Royce Gracie could beat Karelin gi-less and standing? If Royce can't do it, where does that leave BJJ? And if he can do it, where does that leave wrestling?]

Response in systema is dictated by action. [edit - that's why stuff works - because it's not a pre-fab response, but a real-time response to what's happening. You say "What if it was different?" Well, the response should obviously be different. Different how? Well, what's different about the attack?]


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## RobP

Here's another clip from our site. This is Val Riazanov with Mikhail. Val was a KGB sombo champion and part of Russia's Olympic judo squad. 

http://www.systemauk.com/video/cammv1.mpg

I should be posting some more clips from MR's recent London seminar later today.


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## Yakov

> "Vladimir is not a sambist but i belive he was in Special opsand i might be wrong but i think they learn Sambo."
> 
> Or Systema.


They teach systema in Russia?



> There's a good chance you just haven't observed any "hard" or "short" work performed in a class.


that's try never seen this.



> Or do your friends have "NO TARINING" style competitions to show how effective they are.


okey i don't mind but probably they would...
the point of no training is that there is no training
and competition is a kind of training no? 



> I thought so too, but I asked him, and he has no formal background in sambo. Nor is this mentioned in his interviews. So in his case no. The fact is Rupokashni Boi varies from unit to unit.


Interesting i thought(based on the books i've read) that starting 1923 Combat Sambo is teached in russian spesial forces and rukopashnii boi iz one of names for combat part of sambo. But i never actualy was in special forces i couldn't say.



> personally have formally studied/achieved rank in boxing, japanse jujutsu, judo, boxing, and karate, over the cumulative span of 10 years, the last 6 steady (i e in sucession). I have been doing systema for 5 since all that


That's interesting do many people cross-train in systema?


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## Furtry

> the point of no training is that there is no training
> and competition is a kind of training no?


 I always looked at it as a way of culminating and testing the techniques I've developed. That being said, the major draw back to competition are the rules. If you make the rules specific enough a gay cross-dressing midget can be the world combat champion. (For all you PC folks, I'm being sarcastic  ) An example from personal experience; 1990 Freestyle (Greco-Roman) wrestling rules allowed a continues front head and arm roll for a score of 2 point exposure every time. It was my favorite technique, I won half of my matches by using it. Knocked/choked allot of people out with it %-} . The team used to call it the _'Furtry where am I award?'_ because after they woke up they would ask "where am I?". Next season the technique became disallowed to be used for more than one turn. Once you scored with it you had to move to something else. I still held on till I would choke the guy out and then pin him. Then they said you were only allowed to use with in 5 seconds of hook up. Which basically made the technique useless and obsolete. Get my point regarding competitions. This was INTERNATIONAL competition by the way. Do you know how many Europeans suddenly couldn't win a match to save their life? 
As for RMA/Systema and why I'm so passionate about it, NO RULES of combat only survival.
Now go look at ROSS because I heard Sonnan is training MMA fighters, maybe that's what you people need to _*buy.*_


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## RobP

Jelly - we visited the Vityaz base last summer and saw some of their selection process going on as well as getting some training ourselves. That unit is trained primarily in combat sombo. H2H isn't a major thing with them as they are primarily shock / assualt troops (with, we were told a life expectancy of around 15 min on a battlefield...)

Systema is taught in Russia. We spent a week training in Moscow. Fellow participants included officers from various branches of Spetsnaz. There a a couple of clips from that week at
http://www.systemauk.com/video2.htm

I've also posted some clips from Mikahil's recent London workshop  there too.


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## jellyman

"They teach systema in Russia?"

Yep, there's a trip to Moscow every year, where you get to meet Mikhail's students, civilian and also military, depending on what their jobs are demanding. He has very accomplished students on both sides of that coin. Even his very small, young students can handle a typical adult. I got thrown around by a 15 yo girl, and she was so good, I feel no shame in that fact. In addition to Mikhail, there are people who also teach who acknowledge him as a teacher, and some who teach who do not, but should.

Some people in systema cross-train, some do not. Some have MA experience, and some have no MA experience. It is not neccessary, imo, to do other stuff, but any experience is better than none. No, before you ask, the guys with previous experience do not inevitbaly overwhelm the guys who started with none. As I said before, in my experience, the most troublesome are the ones doing systema the longest.


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## jellyman

Some confuision

SAMBO means "defense without weapons"

rupokashni Boi means "Hand to Hand fighting"

SAMBO is a style of Rupokashni Boi, but any combatative can be a Rupokshni Boi.


----------



## Jackal

Yakov said:
			
		

> They teach systema in Russia?



Not widely, but yes.




> that's try never seen this.



Hmm. Each individual instructor has their own preferred method of teaching. I, myself, prefer brutal work, but then again I'm still young and have a lot of fire and ego to contend with. I know teacher of the classes you've most likely been watching and I believe he prefers softer work with more emphasis on sensitivity, based on his internal arts background before Systema. I've witnessed his teaching style and enjoyed it.



> That's interesting do many people cross-train in systema?



Most people in Systema have cross trained before they found Systema. After Systema, all the holes most of us were trying to fill were filled so there's little reason to cross train other than enjoying the camaraderie of other stylists.


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## jellyman

"and competition is a kind of training no? "

I disagree.

Competition is a means to show the end-product of training.

Do you think Muy Thai people do nothing but full contact? Do you think judoka only do shiai? MT people do a lot of slow sparring, bag work, pad work. Judo people do kata, uchi-komi, and randori...


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## Brenwulv

jellyman said:
			
		

> So now, it can't be a resisting larger opponent, it has to be a technical resisting larger opponent... [edit - and I should add, isn't the point of martial skill supposed to be the ability to beat people bigger than yourself through superior skill? Now we hear the complaint that the other guy had less skill... Well, yes. So where did the smaller guy acquire his better skill?]
> 
> You want to see maybe Alexander Karelin? How technical are we talking here? [edit - Do you think Royce Gracie could beat Karelin gi-less and standing? If Royce can't do it, where does that leave BJJ? And if he can do it, where does that leave wrestling?]
> 
> Response in systema is dictated by action. [edit - that's why stuff works - because it's not a pre-fab response, but a real-time response to what's happening. You say "What if it was different?" Well, the response should obviously be different. Different how? Well, what's different about the attack?]



Hold on a sec. As I said, I've no grudge against systema because I haven't experienced it. I didn't say anything bad about the systema response. Smaller beats larger, you respond to what is presented, dictated by action, fine, sounds good, I agree.

Perhaps I misread, but someone (I thought) said, 'look, here's systema beating a wrestler....'

My thought is that the guy is not a wrestler, and if he is, he's a terrible wrestler (in the context of the things he was attempting to do). That is all I am saying. If you are going to point to this clip, just don't call the guy a wrestler, because he's not. (Again, perhaps I misread something along the way and no one said this. If so, my appologies)

That's my opinion, take it as you will. I've no vested interest in all this and I'm not trying to criticize systema at all, really I'm not. Just offering another view.

Joel


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## jellyman

Fair enough then. The way 'wrestle' is used in my area basically means 'trying to take to the ground without hitting and getting a pin' or something like that. Didn't mean he was a college wrestler.


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## KyleShort

I have to say that I agree that the tactics used by the knife wielder were very poor.  Holding the blade the in a half chambered position just above chest height, he clearly expressed his intentions and telegaphed his motions.  When it came time to strike, he delivered a very akward lunge at relatively low speed (for a blade).  He would have been much better served executing some fast, ficking strikes to the defender's lead hand followed by some jabs to the head and abdomen...all the while he should heve been moving.  Also, he was fully focused on the attack and didn't seem to consider using his checking hand for defense.

In my experience (been stabbed once and encountered a knife 3 times in my life) plus my observation of other's experiences, his knife techniques were not indicative of any sort of skill.  Trained knifers move very fast and protect their weapon.  Untrained knifers who are experienced at attacking with the knife (sounds counterintuitive) keep their knife hidden and attack on hidden lines.  I am not in a position to question NYCRonin's personal experience as an LEO, but the Riker Ryu technique seems questionable.  

Now there is no way to judge the quality of the Systema as a whole based on the Riker Ryu attack.  As far as I am concerned, the Systema response was absolutely top notch and perfect for the attack delivered.  With a different attack, I am sure the Systema reponse would have also been different.


----------



## Brenwulv

jellyman said:
			
		

> Fair enough then. The way 'wrestle' is used in my area basically means 'trying to take to the ground without hitting and getting a pin' or something like that. Didn't mean he was a college wrestler.




Okay     Now I know.

Joel


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## Furtry

Kyle, I don't get it. First you complain that it's to slow, then there are no realistic clips of Systema. Then, when you get one, you complain the attacker is not a knife fighter. What next?... no special effects like a fire ball when attacked at full speed by a trained knife fighter with a Jedi light saber.

Dude, like I said before if you're not interested then so be it. But don't be rude about it. Or I'll show up where you ever you are just so I can sit in the bleachers and yell that your **** doesn't work and you guys are a bunch of pansies. But we both understand that if I did that you wouldnt let me sit in the bleachers, would you?
So here it is, get out of the bleachers and try it for your self. Hell come to my place and if you can show me how ineffective my training has been Ill the first to admit it.


----------



## Clive

:lurk:


----------



## NYCRonin

That particular attack has been one I have used many times to get at people who, through their own training and stated experience -- believe themselves to be accomplished 'knife experts'. I guess the monday morning quarterback will always believe he can do better than those who were on the field when the ball was actually thrown. MR handled that attack cold. Could I have danced abit and tried to cut his hand or some other tactic -- sure, but that had already been done at that training opportunity by a gentleman with many years of FMA training -- and he had zero success. I went with something that I have seen the bloody results of, many times; on Rikers -- done by guys who have real experience in sliceing and diceing people up. Until you know what blood smells like, until you have washed the blood of an attacker, and your own; out of your work uniform more than once -- and you go to work daily not knowing if and when it will happen again -- then I am sorry but I will consider my personal experiences abit more valid than someone who got stabbed once and uses a short clip to judge my efficiency with a blade. I hold my own, to say the least...and will not even attempt to judge anothers skill level from clips. That is all I will bother to comment about my 'lack of skill', Mr. Short -- only actually facing me with a blade has validity -- and I doubt I will ever be given the opportunity to convince you otherwise.

I never liked vid clips because while they do give a view of some work done -- our armchair quarterbacks always believe they would have done so much better. Like dry land swimmers who never test the waters we swim in.

I didnt even want to get into this theoretical discussion -- but since that clip found its way in, I had no other choice.

I will let it go by simply stating: forget trying to analyse clips or vids and get into the water yourself -- THEN you can develop an opinion based on experience not on theory, guesswork or 'it appears to me...' -- all of which are the opinions of the armchair athelete and lack any real validity at all.

Better yet, just cluck your tongue at your own perceived superiority and skill and dont bother to investigate, in person; at all -- it will preserve ones secure niche and keep the training floor less crowded for people like me. Its already too crowded with people who are involved in violent professions that have become convinced that Systema is the method that they will, literally; bet their life on.

So said, I will leave this thread now to the 'experts' who know so much more about martial arts than I do with my 40 years in study and those who know how attacks are 'really done' because my 25+ total years in Corrections, executive security, club security and skip tracing have left me without a clue as to this reality. Write on, experts and experienced ones; maybe you can enlighten me....forgive me, though; if I do not hold my breath, agreed?


----------



## KyleShort

*All:*
I'm not sure how this somehow migrated to a perception of me knocking on Systema.  The original intent of this thread was to present the idea that Systema videos do not appear "realistic" to those who practice more orthadox methods of MA training, and as such I was wondering how Systema people overcame this potentially missleading truth.  I never intended to say Systema was bad.  I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

*Furtry:*
I never complained about Systema being slow...if you look at my previous posts you will see that I am an advocate of slow training as I do it myself.  What I did say was that the videos seem unrealistic.  But this is an issue of perception, not the System.  My whole argument is that Systema can be PERCIEVED poorly through the videos on the web, but I am not saying that it is at all.

I stand by the notion that the knife attack as executed was not pristine example of knife skill.  However, if you'll note, I DID SAY that the Systema response seemed to be very good.  And as far as my interest, man, I am clearly interested.  I would not have started this thread if I was not interested.  That clip was posted for a reason.  It is public.  I gave a critical analysis from my own limited point of view but I do not see that as being rude.  Why post something to a public discussion forum if it should not be discussed?

Your bleachers analogy is not very strong because I am not heckling you in practice man.  I am simply asking my questions about Systema so that I may learn.  I do want to see it first hand, and I try every day to locate an instructor in my area but I am unable to find any at all.  So I am religated to asking my HONEST questions in hopes that I will get honest reponses and that I may learn a little.  I am sorry if I have been rude, that was not my intention.

*NYCRonin:*
I am sorry that I was missunderstood and I am sorry if I offended you in any way.  If you'll note in my post, I was never critical about your skill, but rather the skill of the technique as it was executed in the video that I saw.  I don't question that you may be skilled, and may certainly posess far greater skill than my own.  This is the very reason that I only critiqued what I saw in the video, and that is all.  I stand by my analysis of the technique, and I applaud you for your efforts in training and would never presume to know anything about you.

You apear to be guilty of the very thing that I attempted to avoid.  You took the limited detail given about me (that I was stabbed once) and presumed to know the greater detail of my life.  This is errant.  You don't know of the scars I carry, the bats or guns that I have faced, where I have lived and what I have seen.  But that's ok, I certainly would not expect you to, given that I did not tell you anything about me =)  

Don't fault me for being "an arm chair quarterback".  One can learn a lot by analyzing the actions of others.  Indeed real life quarterbacks often review game footage of others for this very reason.  You presume to know that I do not train hard?  You presume to know that I do not "get into the water" myself?  I try, as hard as I can, every day.  But that does not matter to you or anyone else, because we train only for ourselves.

This thread was meant to help me understand a little about Systema, an art that I am very curious about and wish I could train in myself.  Somehow things got turned around.  But please see that I did not presume to know about you're skill as a fighter, only the skill of what I saw on video. Please accept my apology for not clearly communicating that.

I see no wrong in expressing my analysis of the video posted, and unless the mods ask me to cease such activities, I will continue to do so when I come across videos in the future.  However, I will make a better effort at not coming across as personally attacking an art form or the individuals in the video.

It is clear that my line of questioning into the Systema clan on this board is not apprecitated and I will retreat back to what I know.  Indeed, back home where I can mend my pulled lat muscle and train with my friends.


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## Furtry

Kyle where are you located? Your profile doesn't say. There are knowledgeable people all over the states.


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## KyleShort

I am in Sacramento, California and I plan to attend the Systema seminar coming up in San Francisco (about 2 hours away).  I have done tons of web searches and with such a large Russian population in Sacramento I thought I would find something, but nope...can't find anything =(

I'd love to take you up on your offer and have you provide me the opportunity to experience Systema first hand, but alas, I just bought a house and I could not afford to fly to Ontario =)


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## NYCRonin

If Systema becomes a focal point of your study -- then it is merely a matter of time before you meet the people you exchanged messages with. We are a small community, thankfully so.


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## RobP

I don't think we should be too harsh on Kyle, or anyone who asks polite questions after seeing the video clips. After all, when I fisrt saw Vladimir's hand to hand tape I thought his movement was great but that it might not work so well against a strong root. Of course that was put paid to at the first meeting, and I've been along for the ride ever since.

There is so much chicanery, trickery, hero-worship and downright deceit in the martial arts it can be difficult for a (perhaps rightly) cynical MA-ist to accept anything from a few video clips, especially ones showing soft / slow work.  I don't think there is anything showing work against a "fully resisting" opponent, but then I don't recall seeing clips like that from any art. Some may argue sports fighting does, but to me "fully resisting" also includes the option of hitting with a chair    

If the clips pique someone's interest enough to attend a seminar or get some hands on with a good instructor - what more can we ask?

cheers


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