# Minor venting session



## Andy Moynihan (Mar 3, 2009)

Not sure if this is the right forum, feel free to move it if not. This is not an area I frequent for obvious reasons, so any error was mine.

Here's the thing.

I don't know how to proceed with this without making it seem like I'm somehow anti-religion, which I'm not ,necessarily( I have no problem with the concept of a higher power or an order in the universe, but I'm fed the **** up with organized religions based upon my experiences of what their misuse does to people).


So there's this coworker of mine who, randomly, all of a sudden appears to have drunk the Kool Aid, and over the last few weeks has become very irritatingly self righteous, like everyone does who has so imbibed.

This person, who I've worked with for almost a year and a half now, all of a sudden asks me or others if we "go to church" and if not, asks either why, or makes some statement that how do we know ( insert snippet of random unrelated conversation bit seized upon to make whatever point) is true, insisting that we shouldn't complain about ( insert thing complained about here however trivial or irrelevant) because it's all god's plan and it's all so much easier when you put your life in his hands and all of this.

I have tried very hard, over these few weeks to diplomatically get the message across that I do not discuss religion, period, full stop, end of story, and that I do not appreciate being preached to. When asked, "Not religious, Andy?" I answered that my beliefs were personal. I also brought it up in conversation with others that I was fed the **** up with organized religion--in those words. There could be no mistaking how I felt. It didn't matter.

It was quiet for awhile after that and I thought I'd gotten my point across. Apparently not.

This afternoon at break, all of a sudden she's starting up about this audio book she's listening to, and I'm bracing myself for what I suspect is coming.

Apparently my instincts were correct as it's an audiobook about Creationists and Evolutionists arguing and how it's really awesome and like that.

I don't get angry( well I do, but I don't throw a tantrum), I don't yell, but nonetheless my patience is at its end for this sort of thing. I'm not into hurting folks' feelings as a rule but it's time to shut this down.

She begins into this thing about how "The ones from Creation, who think Evolution is wrong...." and I give her, deadpan, "They're BOTH a pack of ****in' idiots". 

( Not necessarily true, and not strictly what I believe--I have met people of strong Christian faith who were perfectly sound, adjusted members of society, and being of a natural mentality better suited to logic and science than superstition and faith, it is more easy for me to accept the theory of evolution than that of creation, but I am sold on neither as being absolute truth. I'm not one of those who likes the taste of Kool Aid. But the point is that more diplomatic attempts to resolve this have failed, as they so often do with those who have so imbibed, and if I am to have any end to this I must strike the heart). 

It appears to have worked. She halts in midsentence, begins another, makes the motions of "never mind" and I finish with "This is the wrong subject to talk about with me, I'm sorry". and on her way out the break room she says what I think was "I guess it is", and leaves.

I guess I'm just mad at this cultish atmosphere that some, not all, types of religion engender that not only poison people's minds like this but make it so you can't even politely tell them to cut the **** because noncommittal answers or evasions concerning your beliefs seems to function as a clarion call that now they have to "save" you, whatever the hell that means.

I think it is sad, because this person is not a bad person, and was someone I liked before she started talking crazy and I hate to see her going down a path that has damaged some of my friends so badly that one , even years later STILL needs medication for psych problems directly related to religion-based mental abuse from his family.

Pisses me off.

Thanks for listening.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 3, 2009)

You know man, if the first time she'd come to you and said, "do you know god?" You'd said,

*SHUT UP *****! I HATE YOU AND YOUR GOD! DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!!*

I'd probably have said you went a little far in your objection. But it sounds like here, you tried diplomacy, you tried directness, you even tried curtness. It was only after all that failed that you had to get confrontational. 

Some people can't take a hint. Sometimes the only way to get someone to listen is to get louder than they are. It's unfortunate, and not how I prefer to converse, but sometimes it is what it is.

Too bad she can't respect your position. Too bad you may have lost a friendly coworker over it. I can understand her passion when learning about a new idea. It's too bad she can't understand your disinterest.


-Rob


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 3, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> You know man, if the first time she'd come to you and said, "do you know god?" You'd said,
> 
> *SHUT UP *****! I HATE YOU AND YOUR GOD! DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!!*
> 
> ...


 
The hell of it is--I know what it is to believe in something strongly enough that it hurts when people don't. When I chose which side of the 2nd Amendment issue I would be on, and later did become a firearms instructor, i KNEW--going in, from the outset--that no matter how right I thought I was, or knew I was, or whatever---that there WOULD be those to whom none of my facts would matter, that there would be some who would not hear me no matter what. I accepted that. 

Granted, it's not the same comparison as my position can be backed up with more hard evidence than many religious beliefs, and I have no lofty goals of saving peoples' souls, I'll be content with helping them save their lives--but the point is I'm not a stranger to feeling persecuted and that makes this whole mess just that much messier.


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## Steve (Mar 3, 2009)

I know you didn't really ask for help or opinions and are just venting... but I'm a dude and it's our job to try and fix things.   The following is based upon my own experience with labor relations and my own opinions.  I don't know your company's LR policy or anything like that, so take this for what it is (and isn't). 

If this is happening at work, you likely have recourse.  Typically, religious actions like prayer and general conversation is fine as long as it isn't offending anyone.  The point that it does, the person should stop and if they don't stop, they can be made to stop.  

So, if you've been polite but clear with her, if she doesn't stop, I'd level with her.   Just tell her that you are beginning to feel harrassed because of your own religious beliefs (that's a powerful word) and that if she continues you'll bring it up with your supervisor.  While that might not help you two get along, if you're this frustrated friendship might not be an issue. 

At that point, your supervisor should squelch it, making it a performance issue if she continues.  If that doesn't work (either your supervisor sucks or whatever) you might have grounds for more formal action.

Ultimately, these things are best kept informal and dealt with at the lowest possible level.  I would recommend involving your supervisor only if necessary, as this can quickly snowball into a bunch of stuff that is tedious and ugly. 

Good luck.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 3, 2009)

I just let it go these days.  I'm too old to fight it.  The glazed-eye, slack-jawed crowd are not capable of 'getting it' anyway.

*The Jesus Smack-Down*.  Like taxes, it isn't going away anytime soon.

I'm a professing Christian.  I leave it at that.  Don't preach at me, I won't preach at you, amen and so mote it be.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 3, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Just tell her that you are beginning to feel harrassed because of your own religious beliefs (that's a powerful word) and that if she continues you'll bring it up with your supervisor.



Years ago, when I was still a Wiccan, I worked in law enforcement.  I started getting religious stickers put on my car in the parking lot at night.  It was a secure underground lot, you had to have a police ID to get in.  I ignored them.  Then I started getting them stuffed in my mailbox cubby at work.  I let my coworkers know it wasn't funny and I didn't appreciate it.  They told me to forget it, it was just a joke - and it continued.  I finally complained to the Chief.  _He told me he wasn't sure that being Wiccan was legal.  _

That was clearly as far as it was going to go unless I wanted to file suit.  I didn't, so I quit complaining.  They never stopped trying to 'convert' me back to Christianity.  I guess they'd be thrilled to know I finally came back on my own.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 3, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I just let it go these days. I'm too old to fight it. The glazed-eye, slack-jawed crowd are not capable of 'getting it' anyway.
> 
> *The Jesus Smack-Down*. Like taxes, it isn't going away anytime soon.
> 
> I'm a professing Christian. I leave it at that. Don't preach at me, I won't preach at you, amen and so mote it be.


 

You know I even tried humor-- " I don't bring my lunch to your church and eat it, don't preach on my lunch break".


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## Sukerkin (Mar 3, 2009)

Andy and I walk matched paths on this issue.  

I was brought up so strictly 'religious' that my 'rebellion' was equally stong, such that, if I'm honest with myself, if the mythical invisble sky-god himself came calling, I'd take him to task for the murder,torture and misery that belief in him has caused.

People can take whatever poppicock they desire to their hearts as long as it harms noone else and they don't pester me with it.

What happens when you don't stamp on this kind of extremism has been made evident throughout history and is currently being manipulated again for political ends with the present globally reverberating troubles in the heart of Islam (mind you, it makes a change for it not to be Christians causing a ruckus).


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## Steve (Mar 3, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Years ago, when I was still a Wiccan, I worked in law enforcement.  I started getting religious stickers put on my car in the parking lot at night.  It was a secure underground lot, you had to have a police ID to get in.  I ignored them.  Then I started getting them stuffed in my mailbox cubby at work.  I let my coworkers know it wasn't funny and I didn't appreciate it.  They told me to forget it, it was just a joke - and it continued.  I finally complained to the Chief.  _He told me he wasn't sure that being Wiccan was legal.  _
> 
> That was clearly as far as it was going to go unless I wanted to file suit.  I didn't, so I quit complaining.  They never stopped trying to 'convert' me back to Christianity.  I guess they'd be thrilled to know I finally came back on my own.


And that's the crux of it.  While you would have been well within your rights to file a grievance (depending upon your contract), that's opening a big can of worms.  You have to decide whether that's a road you want to travel.  Your supervisor sucked, though.  Any leader/manager worth his salt would've put that crap to bed fast.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

The problem with putting this type of person down is that they then regard you as a G-d sent challenge and get on at you even more! We had such a person visited on us for a little while, always a mistake when there's squaddies around. It was a woman too, I was on access control duty with a male soldier at the time when she came up to us ( there was a big peace demo so we were out in force...) she went on and on about Jseus loving us, forgiveness, all the usual things. The soldier didn't say a word until she stopped then he looked at her totally straight faced, not a smile and said I suppose a blowjobs out of the question then love? I cracked up, couldn't help it, she looked so offended as she stomped off.


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## Nolerama (Mar 3, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> You know I even tried humor-- " I don't bring my lunch to your church and eat it, don't preach on my lunch break".



HA! I'm going to use that one.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 3, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> I know you didn't really ask for help or opinions and are just venting... but I'm a dude and it's our job to try and fix things.  The following is based upon my own experience with labor relations and my own opinions. I don't know your company's LR policy or anything like that, so take this for what it is (and isn't).
> 
> If this is happening at work, you likely have recourse. Typically, religious actions like prayer and general conversation is fine as long as it isn't offending anyone. The point that it does, the person should stop and if they don't stop, they can be made to stop.
> 
> ...


 

I do not think it will get that far. I am not the only one who's had enough.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 3, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> The problem with putting this type of person down is that they then regard you as a G-d sent challenge and get on at you even more! We had such a person visited on us for a little while, always a mistake when there's squaddies around. It was a woman too, I was on access control duty with a male soldier at the time when she came up to us ( there was a big peace demo so we were out in force...) she went on and on about Jseus loving us, forgiveness, all the usual things. The soldier didn't say a word until she stopped then he looked at her totally straight faced, not a smile and said I suppose a blowjobs out of the question then love? I cracked up, couldn't help it, she looked so offended as she stomped off.


 

I so needed that laugh right now *HUG*

I won't use that in this specific situation being work related and all, but there will be others...oh yes....there will be others....


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 3, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Not sure if this is the right forum, feel free to move it if not. This is not an area I frequent for obvious reasons, so any error was mine.
> 
> Here's the thing.
> 
> ...




I ask these types if they would like to meet and talk this over a glass of wine or beer with an ex-girlfriend who is a Minister and Naval Chaplain. I also ask if I could bring in some other friends who are religious and have lots of points of their own they would like to make. Usually I get the dumb look of "You have friends" No actually it is "You have friends who are religious a that are members of the clergy". I then explain that I would like to invite a Protestant and a Catholic and a Muslim and a person of the Jewish heritage and faith. I know them all and I can sit down with them and discuss philosophy and or religion with no problems. As they all respect others and their individual belief system even if their system is no belief or other. This usually confuses them and the think I am crazy to be able to do this. 

If this does not work, I then ask them a simple "Yes No" question. And it must be answered Yes or No. No qualifications. "Do you believe?"  I have found that those with an open mind or enough intelligence see the question and answer either Yes or No. For those that cannot understand the reason for the question and insist upon educating me and qualifying their answer, I just interrupt them and ask the question over and over. The longest anyone ever held out without either getting it or leaving and never discussing religion with me again was an hour. The "witness" ran out the door when my college roommates came home. As I would not let him finish a sentence until he answered just yes or no.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 3, 2009)

That's a hard 'Occams' Razor' to apply, *Rich*.  I admire you for its purity.

I don't wish to unbalance the thread, so this can be ignored if necessary ... but I think it's an interesting question to ask.

How would you (or anyone else for that matter) deal with someone like me?  

I do not believe that there is a God and reject a good deal of what organised religions do because it promulgates what I would consider to be 'Evil'.  

However, I have no proof, other than the expanse and complexity of the Universe, that I am right with regard to the non-existence of God and would be quite willing to admit to my mistake if God was ever to show up (just before he smote me unto ruin if you concur with most religious texts).

So I both do not believe but am also open to be proved 'wrong' (altho' even then I would contest that no God has any more right to direct my steps, without my requesting it, than my father does) i.e. my answer to the direct question of "Do you believe" is simultaneously 'yes' and 'no'.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> That's a hard 'Occams' Razor' to apply, *Rich*. I admire you for its purity.
> 
> I don't wish to unbalance the thread, so this can be ignored if necessary ... but I think it's an interesting question to ask.
> 
> ...


 
I'll quote as always from a Rabbi, this one is Rabbi Moshe Leib.

"There is no quality and there is no power of man that was created to no purpose. And even base and corrupt qualities can be uplifted to serve G-d. When, for example, haughty self assurance is uplifted it changes into a high assurance in the ways of G-d. But to what end can denial of G-d have been created? this too can be uplifted though deeds of charity. For if someone comes to you and asks your help, you shall not turn him off with pious words, saying 'Have faith and take your troubles to G-d' . You shall act as if there were no G-d, as if there were only one person in all the world who could help this man -only yourself'

Your beliefs or non beliefs are yours and none of our business but you are a fellow man to whom respect and help if needed, is to be given, freely and willingly with no strings attached.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 3, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> I was brought up so strictly 'religious' that my 'rebellion' was equally stong, such that, if I'm honest with myself, if the mythical invisble sky-god himself came calling, I'd take him to task for the murder,torture and misery that belief in him has caused.



forget the stuff caused by belief in him, if the God of the bible exists, I want answers for the massive crimes committed by him personally.  Multiple genocides, killing of children, plagues, floods, demanding sacrifice, etc.

The God of the bible was one nasty dude.


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## thardey (Mar 3, 2009)

To the OP:
Often with these types of fanatics, I start talking with them, and turn the conversation to the homeless people I know -- the ones who say they prefer the lifestyle to a regular housing situation, who smell of alchohol and smoke, and I casually mention that God is more real to them than to most people who spend their lives in church.

Invariably, these people are threatened by that sort of talk, and assume they qualify as the "church" people I'm talking about. They ususally leave me alone after that.

As for Sukerkin's and Andrew's points -- sure, God may be unfair and unjust -- but that does't mean he/she/it doesn't exist. And I believe there's plenty of examples from the saints (particularly of the old testament) who felt the same way at times, and openly said it to God, and recorded it for later. Read most of the Psalms -- they start as complaints about what God is doing wrong (and most of those from David "A man after God's own heart"). Same with Job, who was described as "being righteous" while moaning about how unjust and unfair God is. Ditto for Elijah, and several other prophets.

This idea that you have to unquestionably follow God without complaint, painting a fake smile on your face, and pretending to be perfect, while having complete trust in anything handed down from "on high" was perpetuated by those who would serve the Kool-aid, to keep you from questioning your spiritual leaders. Unquestioning people are easier to lead. But that idea is nowhere in the Bible -- in fact, open challenges are encouraged, as long as they are done with respect.

Even Jacob was renamed "Israel" which can mean "fights with God" after an all-night wresting mach with an angel (God incarnate?). And God was pleased with that!


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## Aikicomp (Mar 4, 2009)

To the OP, I would tell her I do not discuss religion and if she brings it up to you again just ignore her. Try to understand that just by "being" Christians no matter what variety (Catholic or Protestant) we are all called by Christ to be witnesses to our Faith. Some people are more enthusiastic than others, especially one's newly introduced into the Faith.

Being Catholic myself I do not force my Faith on anyone if it comes up in discussion (It has in several occasions because of teaching Ju-Jitsu) I try to explain to the best of my ability why I believe what I believe (As taught by the Magisterium and the Catechism) and try to dispell the ignorance and misunderstanding about Catholicism and Christianity in general. I will not argue or fight with them, I will just present it the best way I can with love and understanding. If they attack me or get argumenative I thank them for their time and input and end it. Jesus never beat anyone over the head (OK, except for that time in the Temple. LOL) or tried to ram it down people's throats. He just spoke the truth, if people listened they listened if not...not. 

Michael


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## Tez3 (Mar 4, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> forget the stuff caused by belief in him, if the God of the bible exists, I want answers for the massive crimes committed by him personally. Multiple genocides, killing of children, plagues, floods, demanding sacrifice, etc.
> 
> The God of the bible was one nasty dude.


 
Thing was though, the god of the Bible was the god of the Israelites nobody elses, he wasn't forced on anyone until the Christians came along! No other religion, not even Islam, has demanded that people convert to what they believe. No other religion has sent out so many missionaries, ruined entire cultures, massacred so many people as Christianity. The Crusades still reverbarate in the Middle East and has repercussions even now. Islam has never forgotten them and we reap what was sown then,now.

I don't know how religion comes up in a martial arts class tbh, in all the years I've been practising it never has.


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## Tez3 (Mar 4, 2009)

Aikicomp said:


> To the OP, I would tell her I do not discuss religion and if she brings it up to you again just ignore her. *Try to understand that just by "being" Christians no matter what variety (Catholic or Protestant) we are all called by Christ to be witnesses to our* *Faith*. Some people are more enthusiastic than others, especially one's newly introduced into the Faith.
> 
> Being Catholic myself I do not force my Faith on anyone if it comes up in discussion (It has in several occasions because of teaching Ju-Jitsu) I try to explain to the best of my ability why I believe what I believe (As taught by the Magisterium and the Catechism) and try to dispell the ignorance and misunderstanding about Catholicism and Christianity in general. I will not argue or fight with them, I will just present it the best way I can with love and understanding. If they attack me or get argumenative I thank them for their time and input and end it. Jesus never beat anyone over the head (OK, except for that time in the Temple. LOL) or tried to ram it down people's throats. He just spoke the truth, if people listened they listened if not...not.
> 
> Michael


 
No, I don't understand that, it's nothing to do with me what your (or anyone elses) religion is and I'd really prefer it to stay that way so I don't want people "witnessing" at me in the least! quite honestly? I find it offensive to be approached by such people and they will be told that.


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## Carol (Mar 4, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> If this is happening at work, you likely have recourse.  Typically, religious actions like prayer and general conversation is fine as long as it isn't offending anyone.  The point that it does, the person should stop and if they don't stop, they can be made to stop.



((((HUGS ANDY))))

Ouch, Andy...this is not good my friend.  

You know I care about you and you know I'm your friend.  I understand some of your views on religion. And I understand you're families views.  I've given a hug to your mom when she had tears in her eyes recounting a story.

Your feelings are absolutely justified.  The problem is, your actions aren't so easy to justify, even though they are understandable.

There is recourse available absolutely.  Unfortunately mouthing off profanity to her was not it.  It may have made you feel better, it may have shut her up, but it makes the situation a lot worse.  Which means, unfortunately, that this may not be the end of the situation because you just gave her sufficient reason to take recourse against you.

You're a good guy and a hard worker so I am hoping....seriously hoping....that this is the end of the story.  But, it may not be.  Please watch yourself and step carefully.  This isn't not a good time for any of us to be risking trouble on the job.

Please keep us all posted.  Extra fingers crossed for you.


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## seasoned (Mar 4, 2009)

My 2 cents. Although, it may not be worth that much in this economy. J Analogy if I may. A brand new martial artist, with a few months under their belt, feels that everyone needs to know self defense. You will sometimes see them in all kinds of settings, showing off what they just learned. Could be at work, at a party, or anywhere else that is inappropriate. Now, with respect to religion, I also feel there is a time and a place, and uninvited, is never the right approach, and causes more harm then good. As with a seasoned martial artist, or a truly touched person of faith, it is not their head knowledge that dictates their life, and it shouldnt. I have experienced both above novice, in various situations in life, and it makes me wonder, where are they coming from. I can only discern that knowledge gives them a sense of power, knowing that they have some secrets that need to be divulged to the masses. In reality, IMHO it is a sensing feeling, heart knowledge, that people will read loud and clear, without a word being spoken. I am very leery of people that wear their Gis in the grocery store, as well as those that choose to wear religious items in public. Both give me a feeling of wanting to distancing myself from them in a hurry.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 4, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> ((((HUGS ANDY))))
> 
> Ouch, Andy...this is not good my friend.
> 
> ...


 

True enough, but I'll just put it this way,that I am by no means the only, or the most prolific, user of profanity at my job( even among our bosses),  that I have never in my employment history here been called into our boss' office over a problem, and she has before. We will see if there becomes a need for me to ask him to do so again.


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## Carol (Mar 4, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> True enough, but I'll just put it this way,that I am by no means the only, or the most prolific, user of profanity at my job( even among our bosses),  that I have never in my employment history here been called into our boss' office over a problem, and she has before. We will see if there becomes a need for me to ask him to do so again.



*whew*  Thanks.    One less worry.


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## jks9199 (Mar 4, 2009)

Regarding the "call to witness."  To me, the most effective witness to your faith -- whatever faith that might be -- is the life you live, which should embody your faith.  This speaks louder than someone yelling from a rooftop about what they believe.

Returning to the original topic -- dumb question, but have you simply asked her to respect your beliefs and leave you out of the religious discussion?  Often, I've found, that nobody simply directly asks something like that when a problem like this exists...   They've tried comments, hints, and all sorts of other things - but not simply saying "Please, don't discuss this with me."


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## Tez3 (Mar 4, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> True enough, but I'll just put it this way,that I am by no means the only, or the most prolific, user of profanity at my job( even among our bosses), that I have never in my employment history here been called into our boss' office over a problem, and she has before. We will see if there becomes a need for me to ask him to do so again.


 

Us Brits will have to Pm you words we use that aren't known to Americans and vice versa!
Carol please hug Andy back for me please!


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## astrobiologist (Mar 4, 2009)

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-Carl Sagan


I usually won't discuss my philosophical beliefs online or in large groups.  It is truly difficult to have a well-rounded philosophical conversation about the nature of religion with many people who are religious.  They get very defensive, they usually attack reason with unqualified opinion, and they usually have a hard time accepting that their belief is not shared by everyone.  That's a generalization, but for me it is usually the case.  

Though I am not a religious person, I have spent a lot of time studying religion and the purpose it serves for humans.  Though I am against a lot of what religion has done in the past, I try to respect the views of others in so much that I'm not attacking them or insulting them directly (though I do at times insult a religious dogma or myth, and some do take offense to that.  There really are people who believe in talking snakes and think that dinosaurs never existed).  I have run into the situation often in my life where a religious person is pushing their diety worship upon me.  I generally try to avoid getting offended and relying on anger or profanity to 'get back at them'.  I usually let them know that I am not interested in their beliefs.  If they continue on, I'll bring out the big guns about the history of religion or about what rationality and thought have brought the world in comparison to religion.  I try to avoid going any further than that.  What the religious person wants is for you to get angry.  It will prove to them that you need the salvation they preach.  They will not see your flaw as general human nature, which is the way I see their belief.

You're probably at the point now where your best recourse is to maintain the high road.  Don't let her trick you into getting upset or getting angry.  Just let her know, with a sincere tone, that you have no interest in what she's selling.  Like any 'good' salesperson, she's probably got plans for her rebuttle, but just hold your ground.  It may take a while, and it may be a pain in your butt, but eventually she'll probably stop trying her snare on you.

Just count yourself lucky that you live in a time and a place in the world where you can openly express your disinterest in worship of the local diety without being publically disposed.  It is our duty to continue the movement towards religious freedom for our children and our children's children.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 4, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Regarding the "call to witness." To me, the most effective witness to your faith -- whatever faith that might be -- is the life you live, which should embody your faith. This speaks louder than someone yelling from a rooftop about what they believe.
> 
> Returning to the original topic -- dumb question, but have you simply asked her to respect your beliefs and leave you out of the religious discussion? Often, I've found, that nobody simply directly asks something like that when a problem like this exists... They've tried comments, hints, and all sorts of other things - but not simply saying "Please, don't discuss this with me."


 
Yep. Like I said I told her this was the wrong subject to talk about with me.

Which at long last she appears to have twigged judging by today.


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## Brian King (Mar 5, 2009)

I wonder if I alone find it ironicly amusing and sad that you work at a place that profanity is tolerated (prolific) from the floor up to the bosses but somebody speaking the name of God raises a fuss. Shows the power of a word I guess.

Brian King


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## Aikicomp (Mar 5, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Thing was though, the god of the Bible was the god of the Israelites nobody elses,
> 
> *Um, that's because the the Isrealites deemed everyone other than a Jew to be a Gentile thus not deserving of God's Law. *
> 
> ...


 
It's not RELIGION that has destroyed, killed and plundered throughout history, it is evil and corrupt MEN that have used religion in a way that it was never intended to be used.
no offense intended just saw some general statements that needed clarification.

Michael


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## Aikicomp (Mar 5, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> No, I don't understand that, it's nothing to do with me what your (or anyone elses) religion is and I'd really prefer it to stay that way so I don't want people "witnessing" at me in the least! quite honestly? I find it offensive to be approached by such people and they will be told that.


 

I can understand that, I can't tell you how many times people see my Crucifix around my neck and ask me "Are you saved? Which I find presumptuous. I usually answer " I'm doing the best I can. I've been Baptized, recieve the Sacraments and....." 

That's about the time they figure out I'm Catholic and they just look at me strangely and walk away. 

Michael


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 5, 2009)

Brian said:


> I wonder if I alone find it ironicly amusing and sad that you work at a place that profanity is tolerated (prolific) from the floor up to the bosses but somebody speaking the name of God raises a fuss. Shows the power of a word I guess.
> 
> Brian King


 
It wasn't the name of God that I raised a fuss over, it was this person's diisrespectful, preaching attitude after having been notified repeatedly I didn't appreciate it.


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## jks9199 (Mar 5, 2009)

Brian said:


> I wonder if I alone find it ironicly amusing and sad that you work at a place that profanity is tolerated (prolific) from the floor up to the bosses but somebody speaking the name of God raises a fuss. Shows the power of a word I guess.
> 
> Brian King


The problem isn't that the person in question is saying "God."  Or even that they are religious.  The problem is that, after having been asked to stop, they are continuing to force their beliefs on a coworker.  It would be no different if the topic were atheism or politics, of if she were asking him out.


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## JBrainard (Mar 5, 2009)

Please excuse this post if it is kind of "stream of consciousness," as I am operating on 3 hours of sleep right now...
As for the original "theme" of this thread, usually the way I dress pretty much tells people "I'm not interested." When the "Bible thumpers" I encounter aren't scared away by the spikes, inverted crosses, pentagrams, etc; I simply start a polite dialog with them. I've noticed that these people like to preach at people, not converse with them. So when they start talking about how great their brand of Christianity is, I smile, say things like "that's cool," and then begin to draw parallels between what they are preaching and what other religions teach. I've found that informing them that Christianity can easily cohabitate with other religious beliefs (like Buddhism) throws them off their game. To date, they always give up at this point.
I don't get mad any more, it's kind of fun and interesting to just roll with it and see what happens. The confused look I get when I tell them that the two religions that make the most sense to me are Zen Buddhism and atheistic Satanism is pretty amusing as well.


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## Brian King (Mar 5, 2009)

*Andy Moynihan Wrote*



> It wasn't the name of God that I raised a fuss over, it was this person's diisrespectful, preaching attitude after having been notified repeatedly I didn't appreciate it.


 
Andy I can understand that certainly. I do think that you handled it perhaps as best as you were able to even if you did so in a childish manner. Do you do the same with all that are disrespectful of your wishes or all that have attitudes that you do not appreciate? 

I work in Seattle where being offended is a state past time for many. Prior to 9/11 it had gotten so bad that single men were advised to NOT talk to ANY women at work other than strictly work related conversations and to keep those very brief. We were also advised to not talk to other men about anything other than work topics as anyone else with-in hearing range could claim harassment if they did not like what we were talking about. The subject did not matter. There were cases raised about guys talking about sports because the conversation excluded the women as they did not know anything about the sports, there were cases raised about talking about hunting or other shooting sports as they created fear and anxiety amongst others that might be listening, we were warned that it might be offensive to wear cologne if we happened to put too much on. These are all examples cited at required HR meetings and told failure to comply was subject to termination. I rolled my eyes and thought then as now that too many are selfish little children who allow themselves to become outraged and offended at the slightest little provocation. I thought so then and I still think so. Luckily things have settled down and the paranoia that you might offend somebody has relaxed somewhat.

I can understand that you do not want to hear the word. I can understand that you told her in plain English that you do not want to hear the word. I understand that you told her that she was being disrespectful of your wishes and that you thought she was being preachy and self righteous. IF you told her that in those terms, clear concise language with no grays, she was in the wrong to care enough to continue to talk to you. If you did not tell her in clear English then some of the responsibility I feel may be yours. I am ready to admit that I am wrong in this Andy, I was not there and you are, just my opinion based on what you wrote and my thinking how I would react if I were placed in either of the three positions ( you, her and a witness to the confrontations). A year and half friendly working relationship seems like it might be a shame to lose that just because poor communication skills and styles. Seems a waste to me. That you are considering having her hauled into the bosses office and perhaps fired especially these days where I am told jobs are hard to come by, seems overkill and petty to me. :idunno:

Lives gets a lot less stressful if you can develop a thick skin and not let what people say get under your skin and cause you to react to those words.

Good luck to you sir.
Regards
Brian King

I still find it amusing that it is ok and normal where you work to interlace vulgarity in the conversations but heaven forbid interlacing belief related.


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## Brian King (Mar 5, 2009)

*JKS9199 wrote:*




> The problem isn't that the person in question is saying "God." Or even that they are religious. The problem is that, after having been asked to stop, they are continuing to force their beliefs on a coworker. It would be no different if the topic were atheism or politics, of if she were asking him out.


 
I understand the asking out thing and how it relates to this conversation. But I am also aware of guys asking out women and the woman saying no by saying I am busy tonight or have other plans. In the womans mind she said NO but the guy heard not tonight but some other night would be great and I am really looking forward to getting to know you better and hope that you ask me out again every day for the next week. 
Best communication is two way. I think that it would be childish and over reacting if in the example above the guy asks the lady out for a second time and she curses at him and goes to the boss claiming harassment by this stalking fanatic. 




> they are continuing to force their beliefs on a coworker


 
Ah see I didnt realize that she was his boss and was demanding that he convert to her faith and go to her church. I thought she was a fellow employee and that she was telling him about a book she was reading/listening to. 

Jeez, It is so simple to avoid these things. Go into football mode and ignore the person beside you, nod your head after each play and now and then grunt noncommittally, or start a second conversation with someone else, or change the subject of the conversation. Dont like the subject of the book review talk about a book that you did like or even better a book that you both enjoyed. It is not cute when a two year old throws a temper tantrum in the aisles of a grocery store cause they cant get their way, it is even less so when an adult resorts to bullying and vulgar language as a means of controlling the communication and getting their way.

See I do think it is about saying God. I wonder if the thread would have gone the same way if the lady had been talking about a Rap artist and a concert she went to and the OP did not want to hear about it. If he was considering going to the bosses office cause she was talking about this or that rap song and it annoyed him. Would the lady be called a cultist, a fanatic and the OP advised to seek actions against her? Would the OP be praised for an outburst of vulgarity to the lady in those circumstances? How about if the offending party wasnt a lady but was a man instead and the story continued that after the outburst of vulgarity it followed up with not just more verbal violence but with physical violence and either the offending party or the OP a highly trained martial artist ended up dead and bleeding on the lunch room floor? Would the initial outburst of vulgarity be considered justified wise and deserved?

Oh well, doesnt really matter to me just some thoughts that were pinging around in brain.

Regards
Brian King


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## KELLYG (Mar 5, 2009)

I think that if a line of conversation is brought up and it makes people uncomfortable, religion, sex, politics,etc., and they say in no uncertain terms that this is not something that they want to discuss. (period).   Which is the feeling that I get from (op) and the other person insists on discussing it you can either leave or they get what they deserve as a retort in reply. I feel that she is being disrespectful to you by insisting that you hear her message. If the subtle approach did not work , the direct approach did not work, then escalate it up the chain of command until you are satisfied.


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## astrobiologist (Mar 5, 2009)

KELLYG said:


> I think that if a line of conversation is brought up and it makes people uncomfortable, religion, sex, politics,etc., and they say in no uncertain terms that this is not something that they want to discuss. (period). Which is the feeling that I get from (op) and the other person insists on discussing it you can either leave or they get what they deserve as a retort in reply. I feel that she is being disrespectful to you by insisting that you hear her message. If the subtle approach did not work , the direct approach did not work, then escalate it up the chain of command until you are satisfied.


 
I agree.  This doesn't sound like Andy heard the word 'god' and then flipped out on the lady.


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## KELLYG (Mar 5, 2009)

I work in a predominately male environment. All I have to say is TMI (too much information) the conversation shifts to being more civilized or the subject is changed.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 5, 2009)

Brian said:


> Andy I can understand that certainly. I do think that you handled it perhaps as best as you were able to even if you did so in a childish manner. Do you do the same with all that are disrespectful of your wishes or all that have attitudes that you do not appreciate?


 
I usually do, although more recently I have tried to more selectively limit the occasions on which I use profanity.( Put it this way, I do it rarely enough now that when I ever *do* swear, people *know* that they should Stop Doing whatever put me to that point because its now rare enough they know the difference). 

Perhaps it was on the childish side, but then, you keep a person in an unreasonable position long enough, eventually you will see less than reasonable reactions.

Some people have more tolerance for certain kinds of people( such as loud people, obnoxious people/people of certain beliefs or what-have-you) or for certain kinds of situations( such as those where alcohol and /or drugs might be present, large groups of people or what-have-you). And some will have more than others.

Even from the beginning I have never been what I guess nowadays would be called a "people person", and 4 years straight working with customers when younger burned much of my remaining patience with people out and I never got it back( this has changed to a *small* degree since I began training again).

I'm not there to be anyone's "friend". I'm there to show up for work, do my job, and go home. That doesn't mean I'll automatically be rude, or even unpleasant with people who do talk to me, but I am paid to work and not to socialize. Some people like to socialize and are boisterous and happy conversationalists just to make conversation and enjoy it. But I have never been one of those.

I have had coworkers express interest in shooting/firearms on rare occasions and when asked , Then, and ONLY then do I provide what info I can. And that's as far as it should go. 

Me going loopy and preaching that every last person should be armed, and the company should change its policy because my point of view should be followed? That is most DEFINITELY a "not-do". 

Same with this.

I try never to make things confrontational until it becomes obvious nothing else will work. It isn't that I have a fear of saying something, it's that i find such interaction distasteful.

In point of fact, apart from the handful of people who do actually earn my friendship, I find nearly ALL human interaction distasteful. That doesn't mean I don't or can't do it,I wouldn't get very far without getting gas or grocery shopping but i prefer, when I can, to limit it to what must be done and no more with the exception noted above.






> I am ready to admit that I am wrong in this Andy, I was not there and you are, just my opinion based on what you wrote and my thinking how I would react if I were placed in either of the three positions ( you, her and a witness to the confrontations). A year and half friendly working relationship seems like it might be a shame to lose that just because poor communication skills and styles. Seems a waste to me.


 
There were no witnesses (I was looking). 

Well, here it is 2 days later and there has been no more trouble. We have exchanged occasional "good mornings" and hellos once or twice in the day. I can cope with that. If the situation remains that way, that will be the end of it.





> That you are considering having her hauled into the bosses office and perhaps fired especially these days where I am told jobs are hard to come by, seems overkill and petty to me. :idunno:


 
Again, if the situation remains resolved, that will be the end of it. I as a general rule don't do grudges, They're just additional stress I don't need.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 5, 2009)

astrobiologist said:


> I agree. This doesn't sound like Andy heard the word 'god' and then flipped out on the lady.


 

Exactly.


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## KELLYG (Mar 5, 2009)

Like you Andy I have worked directly with the public for many years and can feel ya on that one.   

_I_ was not insinuating that she said GOD and you flipped out the point was that if any line of conversation was distasteful to you for what ever reason and the person kept trying to push it one you, they are being  being rude and disrespectful. After several attempts at stating to stop the discussion you resulted to being direct and curt.  If a line of conversation was directed at me and I attempted on one , or two occasions tried to re-direct or inform that this is not a subject that I wanted to talk about I probably would do the same, regardless of the subject matter.


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## Brian King (Mar 5, 2009)

Andy
Thank you for the gracious reply to my post. I owe you a bit of an apology and a thank you as I was getting ready to judge you and your behavior with this lady when you wrote




> more tolerance for certain kinds of people( such as loud people, obnoxious people/people of certain beliefs or what-have-you) or for certain kinds of situations( such as those where alcohol and /or drugs might be present,


 
Gah, my short fuse avoid situation if at all possible is the drug use one. I hate that and all my friends and associates know that to bring drugs around me means that you may be held for the police and arrested and I do not care who you are. Forced me to reflect on how I handle those situations. I can be a bit of a hypocrite at times. I try to recognize those times and make the necessary positive adjustments. 

When people post rants such as yours Andy I try to read with the understanding that not always are they really asking or saying what they mean. In some cases they are seeking the right on dude, you showed them' type of reply, I do not spend much time reading those threads and even less time responding to them. Some write their posts out of the need to vent from sheer frustration and not knowing another way of cleansing their spirit they write to release their frustrations in a post. Again I do not spend much time reading or responding to these kinds of threads. Others rant from anonymity not having the courage to voice their opinions face to face with others and rather dump their baggage onto the net. Again I do not bother to read or respond to those threads. There are others that post after some kind of stressful situation and I think they are posting to ask the questionwas I right, are they out of line etc. Even if they do not believe they were in the wrong there is enough of a doubt perhaps even subconsciously that their conscious forces them to seek a third party opinion. You wrote There were no witnesses (I was looking). Which I think confirms my suspicion that you are wondering if you did right by your own standards. I think this thread falls into this questioning/reflective category and my own belief that you are a good man lead me to reply above and to further reply now. I hope that you can read this as constructive criticism and with the heart that it is being written. 

Here is the language you used that set off my thinking in the direction that it went Andy

1. I have tried very hard, over these few weeks to diplomatically get the message across

2. There could be no mistaking how I felt.

3. You know I even tried humor

4. it was this person's diisrespectful, preaching attitude after having been notified repeatedly I didn't appreciate it. 

5. This is the wrong subject to talk about with me, I'm sorry" to which she replied I guess it is

_My thoughts to your words above._

1. As a diplomat Andy you obviously suck. No big deal really it is a large club (the I am trying to be tactful you idiot! Club) and in my opinion over rated and one that I have belonged to for years. It is far better to attempt to be a statesman in my opinion rather than diplomatic. Trying to be diplomatic has gotten many people into trouble where clear concise use of language has cleared the table of many an issue.

2. Not true at all as obviously she did not understand how you feel or how you would react. Part of effective communication is making sure that all parties are hearing the same message. This is one of the reasons in the military while under stress verbal orders are repeated back after being issued.

3. Again with the passive beating around the bush tactics. It might work and perhaps should be tried but one should not expect it to work and should not be annoyed when it fails

4. Was it really the attitude or was it the message that you were hearing.

5. FINALLY clear concise message given and apparently heard. O hope that she heard subject and not book or evolution Vs creation otherwise she may still talk to you about other subjects that you may find annoying. Be prepared to calmly and in an even voice (without vulgarity LOL) state clearly that you do not wish to discuss religious topics with her. Tell her that you value her friendship and hope that she will respect the boundary that you establishing. I you are feeling gracious you can also say something along the lines that you will be seeing her at work and will notice both the positive and the negative changes in her attitude and behavior and should I (Andy) ever wish to discuss religion that you are hoping she would be willing to discuss it with you but only IF and when you start the dialog 

#1-4 are passive/aggressive means of avoiding confrontation or uncomfortable circumstances while sometimes effective yet hardly ever a healthy and growing way to deal with situations. #5 was much more clearly stated and so was naturally much more effective.

Two more things I wish to bring up for our conversationI hope that you do not mind.

When we let people anger us with their use of words/language/attitude/style we give them power. It bears repeating We give them power. We chose to let them affect our emotional well being, we chose to let them pick the battlefield. Here is an example of what I am saying, if your mother says to you Andy, you are a worthless piece of trash and always will be. Now that is a hurtful statement that would cause you pain and perhaps seek some reflection and questioning of your life, naturally. Now if you are out on a date with a beautiful lady and while getting out of your car in front of the restaurant a street bum, a guy that hasnt had a bath in two weeks, so drunk and stoned out on drugs that he can barely sit up let along walk, this guy growls to you Hey buddy - you are a worthless piece of trash and always will be Is that statement just as hurtful? Would it cause you to do any reflection or searching to see if there is any truth to the statement? Of course not. The same words and perhaps sent in the same style with the same intent can have different effects on us and it is our choice how we let it effect us. In relation to this post if a five year old child asked if you go to church would you get angry at the child? If not why chose to let the lady in question have more power over you than a five year old? It is your choice and for myself I often reflect on what choices I make and what benefit I received from making them. It is not easy or always pretty. 

The other thing Andy is that as armed citizens it is prudent to look at our actions as if from the future. If God forbid tonight Andy you had to use your skills with firearm and had to kill some guy. The police and the reporters may be talking to those that know you. How has he been behaving lately? Does he seem violent to you? Has he been in confrontations in the past? Does he have enemies? When put into this situation Andy your friends and acquaintances may well be looking back and wondering if they were seeing the real you, are you Andy or are you some kind of violent bloodthirsty Andy? If the reporters asked the lady at work about you I wonder what she would say. If it would go to court would she be on your side or would her testimony be that he seemed jumpy and irritable like he was under some kind of strain and he has been easy to anger even using foul language, why I thought that he might even attack me right then and there, the way he was looking around to see if we were alone or not. I was so scared that I left and did not even finish my lunch.

As warriors especially armed warriors that may haveand are willing to use lethal force it is in my opinion that we always maintain a professional calm comportment no matter what the situation. 

LOL one final thing in a too long post. Good work on limiting the use of profanity. The use of foul language limits our minds. We risk becoming lazy and rather than increasing our vocabulary to find the correct terms to use for the situation we can easily tend to rely on the close enough fall back of the cuss word. 


Regards
Brian King


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## Dagney Taggert (Mar 8, 2009)

Go in to work and tell her you have just changed your name to Beezlebub.

Then start speaking in tongues.  When you pass by a reflective surface, writhe in pain.  Start wearing sunglasses indoors.  Put tomato juice in a beaker and drink it in front of her. 

Everyone on this thread is so rational.  It's time for heavy artillery!


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## Steve (Mar 8, 2009)

Brian said:


> I wonder if I alone find it ironicly amusing and sad that you work at a place that profanity is tolerated (prolific) from the floor up to the bosses but somebody speaking the name of God raises a fuss. Shows the power of a word I guess.
> 
> Brian King


Both are unprofessional.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 8, 2009)

Dagney Taggert said:


> Go in to work and tell her you have just changed your name to Beezlebub.
> 
> Then start speaking in tongues. When you pass by a reflective surface, writhe in pain. Start wearing sunglasses indoors. Put tomato juice in a beaker and drink it in front of her.
> 
> Everyone on this thread is so rational. It's time for heavy artillery!


 
No, it's time for this thread to die now because the situation was over 3 days ago.


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## jks9199 (Mar 8, 2009)

But that'd be no fun!

Go into work each day next week with something different from this list (add to it as your fancy trips):  the the Book of Mormon, the Watchtower, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the Necronomicon, the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, printouts about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, something from H.P. Lovecraft, a map of the Street of the Gods, some grimoire, the Book of Judas...  

Or just a collection of Japanese manga and anime, then maybe Babylon 5, Star Wars, Star Trek...  whatever you feel you can do the best fanboy riff on.

Or bring in a series of role playing games, like Dungeons & Dragons... and invite her to play!  :EG:


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## Dagney Taggert (Mar 9, 2009)

Oh! I got it! Anne Rice!  Even better, Anne Rice as Anne Roquelore!  Wicked!


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## Kacey (Mar 9, 2009)

I haven't posted in a while, and I admit that I skimmed this thread rather than read it carefully.  That said, here's my viewpoint:  as a member of a minority religion (I'm Jewish), a significant number of people have attempted to convert me, out of (they say) fear for my immortal soul (if they believe I have one).  Some have been involved in their religion their whole lives; others have come to it more recently.  My answer to all is the same:  "I'm glad you found something that works for you.  What works for me is different.  Thanks for sharing your viewpoint, but I am not interested in changing beliefs."  Most people will stop at that point; those few who do not often do not understand polite attempts to end the conversation, and, in extreme cases, I will simply excuse myself every time the conversation turns to that topic.  Eventually, the topic ceases to be raised.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 10, 2009)

I think Andy needs to quit being so Anti-Christian and just convert already.

DO IT ANDY!


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## Stac3y (Mar 10, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'll quote as always from a Rabbi, this one is Rabbi Moshe Leib.
> 
> "...if someone comes to you and asks your help, you shall not turn him off with pious words, saying 'Have faith and take your troubles to G-d' . You shall act as if there were no G-d, as if there were only one person in all the world who could help this man -only yourself'
> 
> Your beliefs or non beliefs are yours and none of our business but you are a fellow man to whom respect and help if needed, is to be given, freely and willingly with no strings attached.


 
That. Is. Beautiful.


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