# Taiji in Kickboxing



## FluidSound (Nov 17, 2012)

I know this sounds a bit unorthadox, however I've been considering entering an amateur kickboxing tournament next year, using Taiji Quan as my martial art.

My teacher does Cheng Dsu Yao's version of Tai Chi Quan (Yang Style). He knows Qi Gong form, Application form, Pushing hands (Including freestyle), weapon forms (Sabre, Longsword, Fan, Stick, etc..), etc... He doesn't claim to be a master (On the contrary), but he is a good teacher. He even shows us the reason for the steps during Qi Gong so that we can have a better understanding.

Anyhow, what are your opinions? Would Taiji work in a kickboxing tournament?


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## oaktree (Nov 17, 2012)

Understand that a kickboxing tournament like K-1 or a Muay Thai event is a sports competition with certain things that are designed for specific type of engagement.
 First we have to throw out Qin na. Then next we have to throw out any shuai jiao. We most likely couldn't use our shoulders, hips or other parts to uproot someone to send him to the floor. So we are left with are punches and kicks. 

There does exist Taiji san shou and sanda and Chen style is very good at this. I guess in theory you can use Taijiquan theory such as sticking,listening, following, but the idea of entering a kickboxing match like K-1 or Muay Thai just limits a Taijiquan players ability to fight and gives the Muay Thai or other competition fighters the advantage.

If you are serious about entering a ring match you will need to start practicing Sanda and San Shou and in my opinion the Taijiquan Sanda and San Shou looks like kickboxing and wrestling with Taijiquan concepts in it.


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## jks9199 (Nov 17, 2012)

In theory, you should be able to apply the techniques and principles of your art in a full contact/kickboxing environment, limiting to techniques that are within the rules.

OK...  That's theory.  Practice can be very different -- or we'd still see people showing some actual style in the tournament rings, instead of everybody looking pretty much the same.

I suggest you begin by buying a pair of gloves and set of wraps, and learning how they change your movement.  Have you actually faced full speed punches in your training, or just push hands?  I would discourage you from letting the first time that happens be in the ring...   Start figuring out now how to adapt and apply your principles in the ring, within the rule set, and with the equipment on.   Start with classmates, then find a gym that has some open mat/open sparring that'll let you try, and try it there.  I'd love to see you give it a shot...  I'm so tired of all the tournament fighting looking the same.


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## FluidSound (Nov 17, 2012)

Those are good points... I did think about that because from my experience, Tai Chi has applied throwing, dropping, tripping, etc... of the opponents.(Illegal moves in Kickboxing) But, from the tournament I'm entering, they do allow pushing, shoving, etc... I'm not sure if using our elbows is allowed, because I've seen elbow strikes applied in Tai Chi. But you are correct, it would be hard to use in competition form.

From watching the matches, the competition is very aggressive. However, I saw so much aggression that there was a huge lack of defense. I don't think I saw one parry, I saw some blocking and lots of holding while attacking. Anyhow, I have no idea if my teacher knows any Sanda or San Shou. He primarily learned Tai Chi Quan (He did learn some Bagua as well).

Anyhow, I guess I could borrow some other styles. One guy that does Tai Chi with us (He des Karate ad is an actual master. But he does Tai Chi short form, 24 and is learning Long form with us). Another guy, who's not a master but learned under a person that recently turned into a master (Sifu Redman) knows some Wing Chun and trained with it for a while. Still, I feel like it'd be awkward taking these arts when I really just want to train in Tai Chi Quan.


@jks9199


I actually have a pair of gloves and wraps as well. I have not, not yet anyhow. Believe it or not, in freestyle push hands, punches can be applied. We even use our legs to lock other's legs and such. We push as well and sometimes go fast with our motions (Mostly in freestyle). And I agree with you. At the tournament I watch and plan to participate in next year, it as a lot of the same stuff.

They rushed in with punches, not even drawing back any of them or putting force into them. Just rushing in and punching a lot. Some low kicks, spinning high kicks (once in a while) and just lots of punching. Then when someone is holding, they'd start throwing force into their punches and kicks. It was a lot of the same stuff.


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## jks9199 (Nov 17, 2012)

FluidSound said:


> Those are good points... I did think about that because from my experience, Tai Chi has applied throwing, dropping, tripping, etc... of the opponents.(Illegal moves in Kickboxing) But, from the tournament I'm entering, they do allow pushing, shoving, etc... I'm not sure if using our elbows is allowed, because I've seen elbow strikes applied in Tai Chi. But you are correct, it would be hard to use in competition form.
> 
> From watching the matches, the competition is very aggressive. However, I saw so much aggression that there was a huge lack of defense. I don't think I saw one parry, I saw some blocking and lots of holding while attacking. Anyhow, I have no idea if my teacher knows any Sanda or San Shou. He primarily learned Tai Chi Quan (He did learn some Bagua as well).
> 
> ...



Don't try to "borrow" from other styles; figure out how you can use your own style effectively, under those circumstances.  It's not totally dissimilar, for example, from being in heavy mittens or gloves.  Not exactly the same, either -- but the point is that you want to be able to make your style work for you, not try to cram a few pieces of other stuff in.

What you saw is often fairly typical of amateur kickboxing, especially in novice fighters.  My understanding of tai chi is that it's based on evasion, deflection, and counter-attacking.  Figure out how to make that work, in the ring.  Again -- wear the gloves and wraps and do some push hands.  See how things change...  Have someone attack you with thigh kicks, and figure out how to counter them, too.  Sounds like you've got some folks in your class that might be able to help you prepare.

Don't neglect conditioning!  That's one of the biggest failings I see in novice fighters: they aren't in shape to fight.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2012)

Well according to William CC Chen he taught his son Max and daughter Tiffany Taiji and they did pretty well in Sanshou


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 17, 2012)

If you suggest lighting speed training, you will upset many Taiji guys who strongly believe in slow speed training. They believe to train slow, they can be fast someday which will never happen. Without lighting speed training, Taiji will be useless in combat.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 18, 2012)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you suggest lighting speed training, you will upset many Taiji guys who strongly believe in slow speed training. They believe to train slow, they can be fast someday which will never happen. Without lighting speed training, Taiji will be useless in combat.



I'm guessing you never heard of fast forms have ya


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## FluidSound (Nov 18, 2012)

@KungFuWang

When you do something at a slow speed, it becomes natural to you. The idea in Tai Chi is not only to move slow, but to be relaxed while doing it. That's what comes over time and after a while, it becomes so natural to you that you can do it naturally without thinking about it. But Tai Chi isn't always slow, trust me. As Xue Shang said, there are fast forms of Tai Chi Quan.

One thing I will mention is, when I Silk Reel, I do so slowly. One day, my teacher come up to me and throw a punch. Then, he threw another. Then he kept speeding up his punches and I kept diverting them and he said "GOOD! That's the idea. Don't think. Just do it!" I did it fast because it was natural to me and felt easy.


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## oaktree (Nov 18, 2012)

In Chen taijiquan usually you start off with laojia yi Lu to build the body
and basics. The second routine er Lu or pao chui is the more
Martial, faster. When learning tuishou you have to go slow at
First to be able to listen and feel your opponent this could take years.
Afterr you can go into 2 man drill sets and then San shou free style.
There is a reason everything in steps in taijiquan, trying to
Speed or skip steps in my opinion hinders your understanding at least
At a deeper level of taijiquan.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 18, 2012)

FluidSound said:


> When you do something at a slow speed, it becomes natural to you.


You are talking about single move development. In combat, single move usually won't work that well. You will need combo. To develop combo is different from to develop single move.

Here is a simple test. Try to deliever 3 XingYi Beng Chuan right, left, right with 3 forward steps and see if you can finish all 3 punches within 1 second. Onething that you will find out is you have to modify your Santi stance. How will you modify it? To be able to do in slow speed doesn't mean that you can do in fast speed.

In combat, your footwork should move very fast. You just can't develop that kind of fast footwork in slow speed training.






If you watch this clip in slow motion, you will find out the heel of his back foot are not touching the ground. You will also find out that his back foot are sliding. When you train your solo move in slow speed, you won't pay attention on such modification. Those modification are important in combat when speed is critical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf_5flVU6iE&feature=relmfu


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 18, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm guessing you never heard of fast forms have ya


I have not seen one yet. The Chang Taiji is the fastest Taiji that I have seen. Each move is either 1 inhale or one exhale. I have not seen any Taiji form that people move so fast that their hands are just like blur.

What's "fast"? When you feel that your eye balls are going to fly out of your eye sockes, that's "fast".



oaktree said:


> trying toSpeed or skip steps in my opinion hinders your understanding at least
> At a deeper level of taijiquan.


What's the value for understanding the deeper level of taijiquan if one still can't fight with it? There are other pathes that can help one to get his combat ability faster than the Taiji path.


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## oaktree (Nov 19, 2012)

If you have already reached a deep level of Taijiquan you know how to be combat effective. 
 You can not run(combat application) if you do not learn how to walk(tuishou). You can not walk(forms,basics) if you do not learn how to stand. 

There are many paths that is true you can learn boxing, first week you will learn more how to fight then a year of Taijiquan. But Taijiquan in that year will lead to a lot more benefits then learning how to fight. So it depends on what you are after and how much time you want to invest in something. If you want things fast and do not have patience then internal arts will yield results only after time.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 19, 2012)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have not seen one yet. The Chang Taiji is the fastest Taiji that I have seen. Each move is either 1 inhale or one exhale. I have not seen any Taiji form that people move so fast that their hands are just like blur.
> 
> What's "fast"? When you feel that your eye balls are going to fly out of your eye sockes, that's "fast".



There are fast forms, 2 actually in my flavor of yang style, lots of qinna too. 

As for what is fast, that I can't answer that and when you feel that your eye balls are going to fly out of your eye sockets. it may be fast, but it is not in control......

But you are already convinced that taiji is useless....and I'm ok with that....have a nice day


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## blindsage (Nov 20, 2012)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You are talking about single move development. In combat, single move usually won't work that well. You will need combo. To develop combo is different from to develop single move.
> 
> Here is a simple test. Try to deliever 3 XingYi Beng Chuan right, left, right with 3 forward steps and see if you can finish all 3 punches within 1 second. Onething that you will find out is you have to modify your Santi stance. How will you modify it? To be able to do in slow speed doesn't mean that you can do in fast speed.
> 
> ...


I hope you're not equating those videos to Xingyi stepping, since they aren't Xingyi.  But based on the points you've made on your posts here, I think you've missed the point anyway.  Confusing speed for good timing and fast movement for quality movement is a fundamental error.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 20, 2012)

blindsage said:


> I think you've missed the point anyway.  Confusing speed for good timing and fast movement for quality movement is a fundamental error.



This thread is about "Taiji in kickboxing -  using Taiji in kickboxing tournament". Kickboxing is not to perform single punch or single kick. It's to throw fast kicks, punches combination such as a front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, jab, cross, hook, hook, ... Since your opponent is a fast moving object, the only way that you can hit him is by using your fast footwork along with fast kick punch combo. No matter how fast your "single" punch may be, you will need more than single punch to be able to hit your opponent. In order to be able to integrate Taiji into kickboxing, you have to look at the combo level and not just the single move level.

If you train Taiji "brush knee", followed by "cloud hand", followed by "step back repluse monkey" in combat speed, you will find out that you may be able to integrate Taiji into kickboxing someday (assume that you do care about using Taiji in kickboxing tournament).


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 20, 2012)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you train Taiji "brush knee", followed by "cloud hand", followed by "step back repluse monkey" in combat speed, you will find out that you may be able to integrate Taiji into kickboxing someday (assume that you do care about using Taiji in kickboxing tournament).



So you are saying you are supposed to follow the form sequence in application...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 20, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> So you are saying you are supposed to follow the form sequence in application...


No! In kickboxing/Sanshou, you should always have combo (use move 1 to set up move 2, use move 2 to set up ...) and not single move in mind. 

Here is an example.


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## FluidSound (Nov 20, 2012)

Tai Chi isn't about single movements.

There's a old phrase that all of us have probably heard a million times. "You must be fluid, like water."

Yeah, I know, a little corny. But that is the principle of Tai Chi Quan. You must be fluid, relaxed, adaptable. Ready for anything. Tai Chi is just that. It isn't "Alright, I'm gonna come in with this and it will hit!" We NEVER have that mindset. We live in the middle. We do it and if it doesn't work, we do something else to adapt to the new situation. We don't just punch and back off. We move in with something else and take advantage of our opponent's movements. We go with the flow of things and not worry about the past or future of things, but the now.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 20, 2012)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> No! In kickboxing/Sanshou, you should always have combo (use move 1 to set up move 2, use move 2 to set up ...) and not single move in mind.
> 
> Here is an example.



I know about Sanshou, trained it a bit, there is a damn good sanhou school near me I would love to train at but I am now to old to train sanshou these days

To be honest if you train taiji like sanshou you end up with sanshou not taiji. I personally do not think taiji would do well in a sanshou ring since it tends to be reactive and combinations flow based on what is coming at you and wearing gloves would impede that since what is coming at you may constitute qinna and since, if done well, and it rarely is, things become automatic. I also do not think what William CC Chen taught Max and Tiffany Chen is taiji either but they did do rather well in sanshou and thier dad says he only taught them taiji (modified Chen Manching taijiquan which is modified yang taijiquan).

You do not train taiji, xingyi, bagua, JKD, wing chun, Changquan, tongbei, or Baji with a sanshou match in mind if you do you are training sanshou. Example of what I am talking about, years ago I was invited to spar at a TKD school and when I got there I was told all the rules I had to follow and where I could and could not strike. I then said thank you  no. The teacher could not understand why so I told him you have invited me here to spar but you are telling me I have to spar with TKD, which I do not train, not the Changquan I do train or any other style of CMA I had trained qinna is out as are head strikes or any other strike outside of the box you have shown me, hell I could not even use the Jiujutsu I knew. 

Basically just because it does not work in a sanshou ring does not mean it does not work. It just means it does not work on a sanshou ring. Police/military sanshou won&#8217;t work in a sanshou ring either but I guarantee you it is damn effective


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## Flying Crane (Nov 20, 2012)

The first thought that comes to my mind is that most people who do taiji do so for exercise and have zero understanding of how to fight with it, and zero understanding of how to even approach the training in order to learn how to fight with it.  They just practice the forms (usually poorly) and believe that doing so will somehow magically give them fighting prowess.  That's not true.

So first off, you need to realistically ask yourself, is your approach to training, at your school, such that you can develop real fighting ability?  And if so, have YOU developed such ability?  Are you honestly making progress in that direction?  If you say that you are, and if you are actually lying to yourself, then stepping into the ring will be a very painful eye-opening experience.

Secondly, you need to ask yourself honestly, if you are developing real fighting ability, can that translate effectively into the genre and the rule-set of that kickboxing tournament?

Be brutally honest with yourself about this, or else this will turn into a very bad experience.


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## FluidSound (Nov 20, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> The first thought that comes to my mind is that most people who do taiji do so for exercise and have zero understanding of how to fight with it, and zero understanding of how to even approach the training in order to learn how to fight with it. They just practice the forms (usually poorly) and believe that doing so will somehow magically give them fighting prowess. That's not true.
> 
> So first off, you need to realistically ask yourself, is your approach to training, at your school, such that you can develop real fighting ability? And if so, have YOU developed such ability? Are you honestly making progress in that direction? If you say that you are, and if you are actually lying to yourself, then stepping into the ring will be a very painful eye-opening experience.
> 
> ...



To the first paragraph, my Tai Chi school is pretty small, but I assure you he is a good teacher. He learned throug Cheng Dsu Yao's style of Yang. Cheng Dsu Yao was a practitioner in many forms of Kung Fu, including Tai Chi Quan. He even had contact with Cheng Man Ching as well about the form.

Anyhow, my instructor knows the Qi Gong form (1st lu through 4th lu), application form (Same), all weapon forms (fan, stick, straight sword, sabre, etc...), pushing hands, and freestyle pushing hands. He doesn't claim to be a master at all, but he's a goo teacher.

The approach at the school does help me to develop real fighting ability. He doesn't just how us the form. He shows us the use to each step. I am developing ability, slowly but surely. I am making progress, but little at time. I'm not confident I'd be efficient in the ring.

I have questioned the third thing. I have considered the rules and have come up with some answers to this. In some ways, yes, it wil translate well. in other ways, not so much. What I mean is this. One rule is, if you knock your opponent down 3 times, they lose. This would be a very good rule for Tai Chi Quan. You are allowed to push, punch, kick, no elbows though and I don't think shins. But we don't use shins (At least to my knowledge) in Tai Chi Quan. Anyhow, assuming that I won't be able to get a knockout, I can still probably push my opponent to he floor effectively. Of course, this might be so much considering Tai Chi takes a looong time to develop.

When I make small progress in Tai Chi Quan, I tend to notice it. However, I am quite hard on myself and do my best to be realistic about my ability. I only seek to become better.

As far as my Tai Chi Teacher goes by the way, I am very sure he knows what he's doing. He even makes me study the principles of Tai Chi and is hardest on me since I'm his most serious student. He always tells me if I do something wrong and reprimends me if my back isn't straight, if I didn't shift my weight 50/50, if I lean forward too much (saying that I have to let my opponent come to me.), along with stuff like "It isn't about showing strength. It's about being soft and graceful."


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 20, 2012)

FluidSound said:


> To the first paragraph, my Tai Chi school is pretty small, but I assure you he is a good teacher. He learned throug Cheng Dsu Yao's style of Yang. Cheng Dsu Yao was a practitioner in many forms of Kung Fu, including Tai Chi Quan. He even had contact with Cheng Man Ching as well about the form.


Cheng Dsu Yao, are you in Italy?

Cheng Dsu Yao studied a whole lot of styles and I do not doubt his or his student&#8217;s martial ability and I mean no offense but I doubt anything being taught is purely taijiquan since most of his teachers were not Taiji and I am not sure how long he trained with Chen Manching


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## FluidSound (Nov 20, 2012)

No. My sensei is from Italy and he practiced Tai Chi Quan there for may years. Anyhow, whenever I watch Tai Chi Quan videos, it's pretty similar to what we do if not the same thing. Holding the ball, peng, brush knee and push, reject the hand of the monkey, play the pipa, grabbing the tail of a sparrow, hun, hand like a cloud, grab the needle from the bottom of the sea, snake stance (To build flexibility), etc...


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