# Differences between Kenpo and Kempo?



## Kane

I've heard the art of kenpo and now a few weeks ago I find there is another MA called Kempo. Can someone please explain the differences? I am kinda confused on what is the difference between the two. Thanks!


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## mhouse

Kenpo and Kempo are essentially the same. But there are a lot of variations in the type of Kenpo/Kempo.

Directly translated it means "Fist Law". 

All the Kenpo/Kempo arts trace their lineage back to James Mitose. I beleive there are several threads here about him. Mitose trained a few students, one of the most important (from the perspective of passing on and improving the art) is William K.S. "Thunderbolt" Chow.  Chow in turn trained a number of the most prominant names in the Kenpo/Kempo. I beleive, and please someone correct me if I speak out of turn, that Chow was the first one to change the spelling from Kempo to Kenpo. 

Chow's Students included:
 - Ed Parker, creater of what is refered to as American Kenpo. Also known as Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate. Grandmaster Parker has a long and distinguished list of student.  Any search on the name Ed Parker will bring up a significant list of web sites. Some other names to look up, students who studied with Mr. Parker are:  Frank Tejo, Huk Planas, Larry Tatum, Al Tracy.  

- William Chun. As Professor Nick Cerio continued his studies, he trained with Chun for a while before being granted permission to train with Grandmaster Chow.  Unfortunatly, my knowledge on Chun and his additions to the art are limited to his interaction with Professor Cerio.  Others on this board my be able to provide more on him.

- Sam Kouha, Grandmaster of Kara-Ho Kenpo. According to his web site, Kara-Ho is the system developed by Grandmaster Chow. Again, I know little about Grandmaster Kouha. For more information on him, I recommend www.karaho.com (his web site)

- Adrian Emperado, Grandmaster Emperado got together with top pratitioners of other arts and created the Kajukenbo system (KArate - JU Jistu - KENpo - Chinese BOxing) [I believe that is the breakdown, others may correct me]  

The lineage I study came from Kajukenbo.(Emperado - Gascon - Presare - Cerio - Villari - Bryant&Nohelty) 

 If you want to learn more about Kenpo/Kempo, I can recommend some other web sites. 

www.duncansmartialarts.com has an excellent linage diagram. Keep in mind it is focused on the lineage of Master Duncan but it does show the names I gave above and it does have web links to many of them.

Hope this helps.


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## Mekugi

Kenpo is Kempo spelled "incorrectly". Note the quotation marks, as I have just spelled kempo wrong in pointing that little nuance out. This is because in it's proper form the word would be "Kempou" or "kemp&#333;" <---notice the Hepburn vowel stress. The rule goes "n becomes m before p,b or m" in Japanese.
ANYWAY.....
Shorinji Kempo, and other Japanese/Okinawa Kempo _generally_ have nothing to do with James Mitose, which could be thought of as the father of  _"American"_ kempo; in this case mhouse has given a lovely list!

BTW there is also the word "kempo", which stands for sword law- this is definitely not the same beast, but something good to know.

Always,


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## Randy Strausbaugh

mhouse said:
			
		

> I beleive, and please someone correct me if I speak out of turn, that Chow was the first one to change the spelling from Kempo to Kenpo.


James Mitose used the Kenpo spelling in his books ("What Is Self Defense" and "In Search of Kenpo").
Hope this helps.


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## Matt

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> James Mitose used the Kenpo spelling in his books ("What Is Self Defense" and "In Search of Kenpo").
> Hope this helps.



Strangely enough, in the original manuscript, it was apparently spelled kempo, but the change appears to be a publisher's error. If you get a chance to look at the 'letters' reviewing / recommending his book in the front of the first edition, they all refer to "What is Self Defense: Kempo Jiu-jitsu". He also spelled it "JIU-JITSU (KEMPO)" on Thomas Young's instructor certificate. (7/1/46)

I'm not sure that helps any. 

Matt


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## John Bishop

Matt said:
			
		

> He also spelled it "JIU-JITSU (KEMPO)" on Thomas Young's instructor certificate. (7/1/46)
> Matt



I have heard this rumor from the Juchnik camp before.  I would like to someday see a copy of this certificate, since this was a specific question I asked Thomas Young in a 1988 interview I had with him.  His response at the time was "KeNpo".  Another response was that he had never heard Mitose refer to the art as "Kosho Ryu", only "Kenpo Jiu Jitsu" and "Shorinji Kenpo".


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## 8253

differences N and M  along with some changes in different lineages.


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## Randy Strausbaugh

Matt said:
			
		

> Strangely enough, in the original manuscript, it was apparently spelled kempo, but the change appears to be a publisher's error. If you get a chance to look at the 'letters' reviewing / recommending his book in the front of the first edition, they all refer to "What is Self Defense: Kempo Jiu-jitsu". He also spelled it "JIU-JITSU (KEMPO)" on Thomas Young's instructor certificate. (7/1/46)
> 
> I'm not sure that helps any.
> 
> Matt


To further confuse matters, four of those letters (all dated 1947) referred to the book by the title "What Is Self Defense _by_ Kempo Jiu-jitsu".  In a 1953 letter by Dr. Arthur Keawe, printed in the second edition (1980 reissue), Dr. Keawe uses the KeNpo spelling. Since Dr. Keawe was a direct student of Mitose, it may be assumed that both he and Thomas Young  knew how Mitose wished the name of the art to be spelled.
I've heard the publisher's error story before, but in "Mitose's In Search of Kenpo" (published in 1984), the word is spelled "Kenpo" throughout.  Surely, if the "Kenpo" spelling was a publisher's error in 1953, it is unlikely that it would  have been repeated  in 1984 by a different publisher in a different book by the same author.
Sorry if this doesn't help.  :asian:


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## bluenosekenpo

*enjoy!*

*Kenpo FAQ*

​Disclaimer: This FAQ does not necessarily represent the opinions, knowledge, or practices of the Stanford Kenpo Karate Club. It just came across our e-mail one day. 

​[=]------------------------------------------------------------------------[=]   K E M P O / K E N P O  FAQ  version 1.1                February 16, 1994   contributers            :  Bryan Zarnett  bzarnett@jupiter.scs.ryerson.ca                              Paul Seaby     paseaby@bclands.ccrl.gov.bc.ca [=]------------------------------------------------------------------------[=]The following FAQ is for the Kempo/Kenpo arts in general and is not specific to one particular Kempo/Kenpo school. In most cases, during this FAQ, the wording "Kempo" is used to describe both Kempo and Kenpo. Please send me any feedback, questions, complaints, etc about this faq. Please note, that this faq, in no way (just incase anyone thinks it is), meant to be offensive and if you think it is...well...sorry. Any corrections to any information given as well as additions are much appreciated. 

*TABLE OF CONTENTS*


A Brief History of Kempo 
The Direction of Kempo 
Differences between Kempo and Kenpo 
What are the different styles of Kempo 
Birthdates in Kempo 
What "arts" compose Kempo 
Does Kempo use weapons other than hands and feet 
Does Kempo have kata 
Any books or videos? 
Black and White Gis? 
Similarities between Kempo and other arts 
Is there a Kempo school near me? 
Kempo Orginizations 
Mitose Kempo Family Tree 
Kempos speed striking 
*1.0 A Brief History Of Kempo*

* NOTE * Certain names in times are in conflict and the most commons ones where used in this document The art of Kempo, also written as Kenpo is unique as far as its history goes in two respects; it is considered by many the first eclectic martial art, as well as having its founding roots stretch back to 520 BC The person who was a catalyst of the way of Kempo was a prince and warrior of southern India called Bodhidharma. According to the records of the Lo-Yang temple, Bodhidharma was a Buddhist monk under the tutelage of Prajnatara and it is presumed that upon his death bed that Prajnatara requested Bodhidharma to travel to China where he felt the principles of Buddhism where in decline, and that the knowledge of dhyana (Zen koans) should be known. 

It is estimated that in 520 BC during the Southern dynasties that Bodhidharma entered China and travelled northward to the kingdom of Wei where the fabled meeting with emperor Wu of the Liang dynasty began. This meeting is recorded do to the intense conversation and discussion of Buddhism and dhyana which took place. The meeting was to no avail, his words to the worldly emperor meant nothing, and thus, sullened by his attempts, Bodhidharma left the palace of the emperor and travelled to the Honan province where we entered the Shaolin temple and began a martial history. 

Bodhidharmas depression grew once he reached the famed Shaolin temple for Prajnatra's telling was true. The monks where in a raged condition physically and mentally diminished do to the excess amount of time the monks spent in meditation and little else. Many of the monks would often fall asleep in meditation while others needed assistance in the basic nessicities of life - so feeble was there condition. 

For an unknown period of time Bodhidharma meditated in a cave at the outskirts of the temple seeking for a way to renew the feat of Buddha's light, as well as letting the monks regain control over there lives. Upon his return Bodhidharma instructed the monks into the courtyard, from the strong to the feeble and began to explain and work with them in the art of Shih Pa Lo Han Sho, or the 18 hands of Lo Han. These techniques which are the foundation for almost all martial arts today where never originally intended to be utilized as methods of fighting but where a manner in which the monks could attain enlightenment while preserving there bodies health. 

During the Sui period, approximitly forty years or so after the death of Bodhidharma it is told that brigands assaulted the Shaolin monetary; one of many attacks that would occur until the early twentieth century. During this first invasion, the monks attempts at defending there temple where futile, there skills where not attuned to fighting techniques and it looked as if the temple would fall. A monk of the temple, with reference only as the "begging monk", during the last seige of the temple by the brigands attacked several of the outlaws with an array of aggressive hand and foot techniques, killing some and driving the remaining attackers away. The other monks where so inspired by the display of this single priest that they requested tuteledge in this martial style as a means of protection. In later scripts this fighting art was recorded as Chuan Fa or Fist Method. 

Over several decades the fighting arts of the Shaolin temple grew and where said to prosper over 400 arts in total over the next several centuries. Several decades after the fight of the begging monk, a master of Chuan Fa called Ch'ueh Taun Shang-jen was said to have rediscovered the original Shih Pa Lo Han Sho which had been lost for many years. Ch'ueh over a period of time integrated his art of Chuan Fa with that of Lo Han increasing the total number of techniques from the original eighteen to total of seventy-two. For several years after this period Ch'ueh travelled the country side of China promoting his art in several gruelling fighting matches until he came upon a man named Li in the province of Shensi. Li, a master of Chuan Fa as well as other martial ways (including rumours of Chin Na) travelled and trained with Ch'ueh for some time developing the ciriculim of Chuan Fa to form a total of one-hundred and seventy techniques. Furthermore, they categorized these techniques into five distinctive groups distinguished by various animals who instinctive reactions best reflected the movements of this new Chuan Fa. Upon there return to the Shaolin temple of which both Li and Ch'ueh belonged they presented to the other monks wu xing quan, the five animal form and brought to the Shaolin temple a new stage in martial arts evolution. 

Over the next several centuries the history of Chuan Fa and its advent to Kempo is ragged in its tales and difficult to gain accurate descriptions. What is known is that the art of Chuan Fa remained and is still practiced in China, but its teaching also found its way to Okinawian Islands and the Ryukyu kingdoms as well as Japan. In both places, the art was referred to as Kempo or Law of the fist. Between the Sui and Ming periods (an 800 year gap) it is considered that many a wandering monk travelled across Japan and Okinawa bringing with them a working knowledge of the art of Kempo which explains its wide-spread distribution. The art of Chuan Fa which translates into Kempo would have been taught as a supplement to the daily spiritual training the monks endured. Many of the monks would often choose disciples or teach at various Buddhist temples bringing forth the word of Buddha, and the power of Chuan Fa. From there the art of Kempo could easily spread among the commoners and nobles alike 

Another reason for the founding in Kempo can be seen in the numerous trips the Japanese and Okinawian made to China to learn the fabled art of Chuan Fa. Some people would disappear for many years, presumed dead by there families, only to resurface as a master of Kempo and other martial arts. One such man was named Sakugawa. Sakugawa lived in the village of Shuri on the island of Okinawa and travelled to China during the 18th century to learn the martial secrets of the Chuan Fa masters. For many years Sakugawa had not been seen and many believe he had died in his journeys, but after much time he did return, much to the surprise of his kin. Sakugawa has learned the secrets of Chuan Fa and had become a master of some repute himself. Over many years of refinement the art Sakugawa had learned slowly was renamed to Shuri-te and is considered the predassesor to many forms of modern Karate. 

Another member of Shuri, Shionja also travelled to China as Sakugawa did but on his return in 1784 brought with him a Chinese companion named Kushanku. Both men brought with them the art of Chuan Fa which they had studied together in China and began to demonstrate around Okinawa. Its is believed that Kushaku and Shionja had the greatest influence in Okinawian Kempo styles than any other martial artist. 

Unfortunatly, the eveolution of Kempo in Japan is just as abrupt and mysterious although a flurry of attention to the art was brought during the reign of Hideyoshi Toyotomi's plans of conquering China. It is referred that many a samurai on there return from China whether during or after the war brought with them extensive knowledge of Chuan Fa and throughout the years modified it to include there own arts of Jujutsu and Aikijutsu and it is at this state where the greatest evolution of Kempo takes place since the time of Li and Ch'ueh. 

At the begining of the seventeenth century two families, Kumamoto and Nagasaki brought knowledge of Kempo from China to Kyushu in Japan. This art was modified throughout many years into its current form which is referred to as Kosho ryu Kempo, or Old Pine Tree school and it is from here that most modern forms of Kempo are derived. In 1916 at the age of five, James Mitose was sent to Kyushu from his homeland in Hawai for schooling in his ancestors are of self-defense called Kosho ryu Kempo. For fifteen years he studied this art which was a direct descendent of the original Chuan Fa. After completing his training in Japan, Mitose returned to Hawaii and in 1936 opened the "Official Self-Defense" club in Beretania mission in Honolulu. It was here that the five major Kempo influences; Thomas Young, William Chow, Edmund Howe, Arthur Keawe and Paul Yamaguchi would study and bring Kempo to the world. 

In 1934, before Mitose's return to the United States, the term Kempo-Karate was first used. In an issue of Yoen Jiho Sha newspaper an advertising for the visit of Chogun Miyagi, afamous karateka and founder of Goju ryu karate do, to the island of Hawaii. The use of the two terms is under speculation. Some suspect it was simply an advertising scheme while others believe that Chogun Miyagi's Goju ryu was actually a pure form of Kempo, and that the term karate was simply more well known. 

William Chow is perhaps responsible for the largest leap of Kempo to the general public. William K.S. Chow studied Kempo under Mitose for several years and previously had studied his families art of Kung Fu. Chow united, like many Kempo masters before him the arts of Kosho ryu Kempo and his family Kung fu to form a new art which would eventually be referred to as Kara-ho Kempo. In 1949, Chow had attracted a number of students to his own teachings and opened a dojo of his own at a local YMCA. To make a distinct variation from Mitose's Kempo, Chow referred to his art as Kenpo Karate. Throughout the next few decades Chow made many innovations to the system including the use of circular techniques of his Kung Fu, as well as various kata or forms based on the primary linear and circular techniques of his art. 

One of Chows most flourishing students was a Hawaiian native named Edmund Parker. Ed Parker as he was known was the last highly significant figure in the current tale of modern Kempo unleashing it to the world as well as propelling it into his current form. In 1954 Edmund Parker earned his black belt in kara-ho Kempo and two years later became a household name, teaching his art to the likes of Elvis Presley, and Steve Mcqueen. Ed Parker further refined and defined the techniques of Kara-ho Kempo till he perfected his American Kenpo Karate system. Ed Parker is often referred to as the father of American Karate. 

From here, Kempo and its other forms take many twists and turns, constantly evolving into new states of being. 

*2.0 The Direction Of Kempo*

With all things certain paths are given directing us on various roots to a final goal. Sometimes this goal is reached in a very short period of time, while at other times that goal is never completed by expanded by as new paths cross the original. The direction in which Kempo leads its practioners is similar to that - its goals are represented in a sphere, constantly expanding with the final goal only being the beginning of a new stage. 

Kempo is a unique martial art having been founded several centuries ago in the Chinese Shaolin temple, thus bringing with it a certain air of mystery. As a martial art, Kempo is referred to as a Do. The Do is referred to in Buddhist Zen scripts as a path towards enlightenment. Lao Tzu, a priest of Taoism said "Mastering others requires force; Mastering the self requires enlightenment.." This phrases sums of the full circle of what Kempo strives towards. Although on its surface Kempo can be seen as a unique form of self-defense, hidden beneath its physical exterior are levels where characteristic centralization of mind and body form. At this level, Kempo's practioners up from a simple form of fighting to a higher level of ability - a level of enlightenment. Ying Kuchan, a Shaolin monk and master of Kempo after a lengthy period of meditation in a Zen rock garden spoke of Kempo saying "Kempo is the power of adaptability and yielding; the harmony of all things working together." 

On the surface, Kempo's uniqueness lies in its comprehensive and diversified means of unarmed defense. Shaolin Kempo Karate proper is both an armed and unarmed system of combat incorporating applications in varying appearances and method. On an external level, Kempo is a no holds barred fighting system of offensive and defensive methods with equal emphasis of striking techniques with the hands and feet; immobilization and controls; projections and takedown; as well as weaponry and various spiritual and healing arts. Shaolin Kempo is a street wise defensive art that does not restrict its students in methodology. Clawing hands evolve into slashing feet. Cunning joint locks turn into devasting hip throws. Evasive blocks turn into breath closing chokes. 

The possibilities are endless. The only true fighting systems are those where there are no rules applied. From the books of the Han dynasty we learn "Nothing is impossible to a willing mind." And it is from this saying that we can derive the upper principles of Shaolin Kempo. What sets Kempo apart from boxing, wrestling, and Sunday night football is an emphasis on centralization of body and mind, a concept understood by very few. Many people are quiet happy with only the surface value of Kempo taking its studies for reasons of physical health, self-defense, or a Monday night hobby. But for what level of imperfection will you settle for in yourself? If there is more to Kempo why not grasp it. Kempo tries to build a persons psychological persona as well as turing the ego self into the egoless self. The true Kempo is not a means of felling an opponent by force of hand or weapon, nor was it originally intended as a means of arms. Kempo calls for a bringing of inner peace to the self, and the universe around us. A master of Kempo is not only a master of self-defense, but a master of himself. In the end, the direction of Kempo was best described by Bruce Lee when he commented on his art of Jeet Kune Do; "To have no way as a way; To have no limitations as a limitation." 

*3.0 Whats the difference between Kempo and Kenpo?*

Nothing. Actually, the only difference is in the translation of the Kanji to its english form. The word Kempo and Kempo are both pronounced the same and both mean "Law of the Fist." When the Japanease Kanji for Kempo is brought into english, either a "m" or "n" is placed in the word. Its sorta like saying "Qi" or "Chi", "Gung" or "Kung." Generally though, the more "traditional" (lightly used) forms of Kempo use the "Kempo" form, while the more non- traditional or contemporary versions use "Kenpo." William K.S. Chow was the first person to use the term Kenpo to show his break from the Mitose family Kosho ryu kempo. 

*4.0 Styles of Kempo*

In no way is this a complete list of Kempo styles. The following is a list of Kempo styles that I have some information, if even vague amounts on. If you have information on forms of Kempo not listed here, please send me some so I can add it to the FAQ. The following list is of "unique" versions of Kempo, thus the 50-thousand versions of American Kenpo, etc, although refered to as different names (although they are the same) are not listed. 

*KOSHO RYU KEMPO* - This style of Kempo was brought by visiting monks to to the Mitose family in the 15th century. Over the centuries this form of Shaolin Chuan Fa was blended and refined with forms of Jujutsu that where common to the area as well as Rinzai Zen philosophy, Kyudo, and other arts. Kosho, the name of the Mitose clan means "Old Pine Tree", and the Kempo art is refered to as "The Old Pine Tree Style." The current "grandmaster" of Kosho-ryu Kempo is Bruce Juchnik who uses the term Kosho Shoreiryu Kempo to descibe Mitose's school of Kempo. Mitose's son Thomas Barrow Mitose also teaches the true for of his fathers art and is considered by some the true grandmaster of the Kosho ryu style. 

*KARA-HO KENPO* - Founded by William K.S. Chow, a student of James Mitose, this Kempo offshoot is a blend of the Kosho ryu Kempo and 5-animal Kung Fu of the Chow Family. Kara-ho Kenpo utilizes many circular as well as linear techniques and requires 500 such techniques to be learnt for black-belt status. Currently, karaho Kenpo is under the evolution of Sam Kuoha who has added various new techniques as well as 12 kata based on Chow's original 12 base linear techniques. Karaho Kenpo is urrently the fastest growing Kempo organization with currently over 5000 members to its teachings. 

*SHAOLIN KEMPO* - The Shaolin Kempo system was formed by Fred Villari, a student of American and Shorinji kempo systems. Fred Villari's system tends more towards the Kung-Fu element and utilizes the techniques of the 5 animal Chuan Fa to a large extent. Added to the Kempo system was white tiger Chin na techniques as well as various Aikijutsu projections and immobilizations. 

*AMERICAN KENPO* - An offspring of Kara-ho Kenpo, Ed Parker's American Kenpo system is the largest and most well organized system in exsistance. Parker took what CChow taught him and organized every technique and movement into a format that could be broken down into levels for all students. Parker felt that innovations he added to his Kenpo eventually made up 85% of the system and thus he renamed it American Kenpo Karate. The American Kenpo system can proudly be seen in the moves "The Perfect Weapon", and "Street Knight" starring 4th dan, Jeff Speakman, one of the heads of the United Kenpo Karate Association and protege of Ed Parker. 

*NICK CERIO'S KENPO* - Nick Cerio's Kenpo was founded in 1974 and credits both Chow and Parker with the creation of the style. The Cerio kenpo school believe in the "old method of training", and teaches most of the shotokan forms, kung fu and kajukenbo forms, TKD kicks, Japanease stances, as well as Jujtusu. Weapons of both Chinease and Japanease systems are taught and maintains many traditional forms. Cerio calls Chow his "teacher" and Parker his "coach" 

I am acknowledging the following Kempo systems although I have no information about them. 


Nippon Kempo 
Okinawian Kempo 
American Shaolin Kenpo 
White Tiger Kenpo 
Go Kempo 
Ju Kempo 
Kajukenbo 
Sam-Pai Kenpo 
Lima Lama 
Won Hop Kuen Do 
*5.0 Birthdates In Kempo*

James Masayoshi Mitose          December 20, 1915William K.S. Chow               July      3, 1914Ed Parker                       March    10, 1931Sam HuohaBruce JuhnikFred VillariThomas MitoseAdrian EmperadoLarry TattumGeorge Dillman*6.0 What martial arts compose the cirriculim of Kempo?*

In general, most systems of Kempo consists of 4 primary arts which can be seen in 95% of Kempo system in both Okinawian and Japanease systems of Kempo, and consist of primarily Chinease influences. 

(  i) 18 hands of Lo Han                (ii) 5 Animal Chuan Fa          (iii) White Crane Chin Na               (iv) JujutsuOther arts that can be found in Kempo schools include: 

(  i) Aikido or Aikijutsu       (ii) White Crane Kung Fu        (iii) Various weapon arts       (iv) Sumo(  v) Calligraphy, etc*7.0 Does Kempo use other weapons other than its hands and feet?*

In Kempo scools, defenses against knives and clubs are seen from yellow belt and up, and are considered prime weapons in which to defend against. Kempo also teaches its students how to use weapons to increase there understanding of defense. Weapons that are taught are both Chinease and Japanease in variety and vary widely. Some schools of Kempo teach the 8' staff, while others teach Chain Whip, and sai. Weapon training often begins at the green belt level, although in some schools it is restricted to those of black belt level and higher. In most Kempo schools, the primary weapon skills taught are: 

( i) Knife    (ii) Stick(s)  (iii) Half Staff (Jo)  (iv) 6' Staff ( v) Sword     ( vi) Chain*8.0 Does Kempo have forms?*

Many people think that because Kempo is a highly-directed "self-defense" art that it contains no kata or forms. This is very untrue. Kempo has many form with a notable characteristic of having both circular and linear movements as well as hard and soft techniques. Kempo forms are used to teach speed and coordination of strikes as well as movement, projections and immobilizations, and various principles of fighting. Many Kempo systems of Kempo utilized a numbering system for there kata, instead of refering them by name to make them simpler to remember. It is far easier to remember Kata #3 than Naihanci-dai. The American Kenpo system utilizes the terminoly of Long Form # and Short Form # for many of there kata (i.e. Long Form 1). In such systems, often in the advanced levels, the forms take on names, such as Dragon-Tiger Form, Statue of the White Crane,etc. Another interesting thing to note is the use of the Pinan forms in many systems as well as common Okinawian, Chinease, and or Japanease forms. 

*9.0 Any books or videos?*

There are a large amount ,and more out every day. These are the ones that are most popular although I have noticed a few new ones coming out. 

What is Self Defense                    James MitoseInfinite Insights of Kenpo              Ed ParkerMartial Arts and Real Life              Fred VillariThe Zen of Kenpo                        Ed ParkerEncyclopedia of Kenpo                   Ed ParkerKenpo Karate: Law of the fist           Ed ParkerSecrets of Chinease Kenpo               Ed ParkerKempo Karate: Art of Self Defense       Fred WardWhen Kenpo Strikes (video)              Panther VideoNick Ceiros Kenpo (video)               Nick CeiroKyushu Jutsu (book & video)             George Dillman*10.0 Black and White gis*

A common conversation is the Gi's worm by Kempo students. All students begining in Kempo wear the traditional white gi, but as they progress they are allowed to wear a black gi as a sign of rank. it is common for many high-ranks to wear either black or white gi, and at black belt levels to combine the two such as white top, and black pants. I can find no historical sense in the use of the gis, although I know that Mitose often wore a black gi and his students wore white. 

*11.0 Similarities between Kempo and other arts*

Kempo and other martial arts have various simularities in technique and principle, primarily because of the diverse and eclectic background of Kempo. 

*11.1 Tae Kwon Do and Kempo*

Many of the ariel and spinning kicks of TKD have been brought to Kempo in the recent times often used primarily in "sparring situations." Certain jumping and spinning kicks where inherit in the Kempo system such as the Jumping Front, Side, Back and Roundhouse kicks, as well as spinning back, and crescent kicks. 

*11.2 Karate and Kempo*

Karate and Kempo share the closet simularities in techniques do to there similiar backgrounds. It is believed by many that Karate has its origins as an offshoot of Kempo. 95% of all Karate techniques if not more can be found in the Kempo systems. 

*11.3 Jujutsu and Kempo*

Many of Kempo's immobilization and projection techniques arrived from the Japanease Jujutsu. The various loin throws, shoulder and hip projections, as well as sweeps are a direct inheritance of Jujutsu, although Kempo does not contain as wide an array or extensivly developed series of throws as Jujutsu. 

*11.4 Aikijutsu and Kempo*

In the last few years, many Aikido and Aikijutsu techniques have found there way into the Kempo art, gracing the study of Chin na with new principles and ideas. The most common techniques are Shiho nage, Irimi nage, as well as en-no-irimi projections. 

*11.5 Kung Fu and Kempo*

Although Kempo was originaly a "kung" style, it has over the years thrown away many of its Chinease aspects for a more Japanease "hard style" approach. Still, many soft techniques can still be seen in Kempo, primiarly the five animal techniques, chin na, and weapon skills. 

*12.0 Is there a Kempo school near me?*

if you live in North American, 9 out of 10 times there will be a Kempo school in your vicinity. There are about 150 Fred Villari Studios of Self Defense teaching Shaolin Kempo, a few hundered plus American Kenpo scchools. As far as Europe is concerned, the scop is a bit smaller but still numerous (6 out of 10?). In Toronto, Canada where I live, I know of 7 or 8 Kempo schools of various types. 

*13.0 Kempo Organizations*

*NOTE* Part of this list was taken from Inside Kung Fu Novemeber 1993 

*Ed Parker's International Kenpo Karate Organization (IKKA)* 

The IKKA was formed in the 1950s as the Kenpo Karate Association of America, but in the 1960s changed it as many of his students starting teaching around the world. Ed Parker was the president of the IKKA till his death in 1990. His wife Leilani is now president. The goal of the IKKA is to perpetuate the system by having the various "Ed Parker" high black belts teaching the system at various schools and seminars. The family continues to produce the International Karate Championships and has 11 regions including U.S., Canada, and Europe. 

*Chinease Kara-ho Kempo Schools* 

In just five years, grandmaster Sam Kuoha has built one of the largest Kempo organizations in the world with over 60 kara-ho schools and 5000+ students. Students of the organization keep in touch with the THUNDERFLASH newsletter which is distributed quarterly. To contact the Chinease Kara-ho kempo organization, 13320 Camino Canada #6, El Cjon, CA 92021; (619) 443-2611 

*Worldwide Kenpo Karate Association (WKKA)* 

The WKKA was created in Baltimore on Feb 28, 1991 and has grown to 100 schools in less than two years. President Joe Palanzo is preseident and created the organization after the death of Ed Parker do to "philosphical" differencs with the IKKA. The WKKA can be contacted at 1400 B Riesterstown Road, Pikesville,MD 21203; (301) 484-7122 

*United Kenpo Karate Assoication (UKKA)* 

Headed by Jay t. Will, the UKKA was founded in October 1991 with the intent of further the ideas of Ed Parker, without the worry of political aspects. The group wants to keep the parker lineage and has the goal, "to bea place to be a part of something." as well as "Offering a home, to be a part of the Ed Parker family tree." The UKKA can be contacted through Jay T. Will at Jay T. Will Karate Studio, 11 South Columbus St, Lancaster, OH 43130; (614) 654-6038 

*National Chinease Kenpo Karate Association (NCKA)* 

Founded in 1969 by Steave La Bounty, a member of the IKKA, was created to form a "small, intimate groyp which could interact more with students", and not as a rivalry. The NCKAs goal is to insure integry of the art through competent instructions, fidelity to the principle of self-denial, and humility, and to guarentee promotion through endeavor. The NCKA can be contacted at National Chinease Kenpo Karate Organization, 1630 Pat brooker Rd, Universal City, TX 71848; (512) 658-7437 

*Nick Cerio's International Martial Arts Association (NCITMAA)* 

Founded in 1989 with 70 schools and 4800+ students, the NCITMAA was founded to teach Cerio's unique art of Kempo which includes shotokan forms, kung fu and kajukenbo forms, TKD kicks, Japanease stances as well as jujutsu. For more information write Nick Cerio's Kenpo, P.O. Box 9550, Warwick RI 028889; (401) 941-0870 

*Fred Villari's Studios of Self Defense* 

Headed by Grandmaster Villari, this organization is the controlling head of the Villari Kempo System and tries to united all Shaolin Kempo schools. The Ontrio branch is headed by Henry Choo Chong. 

*United Studio's of Self Defense* 

An offshoot of the Villari Studios, the United studios which is still run by Villari I believe, teachs Kempo as its main source but also teaches Tae kwon Do and Wing Chung in the same school with the intention of creating a common learning ground for many martial arts. 

*Masters of Self Defense* 

A breakoff from Fred Villaris studios and formed by one of Villari's highest ranked students, Fred bagely. The organization was formed after certain "politcal" differenec occured and is run by many high ranked black belts. The Masters of Self Defense boasts over 50 schools and teaches the Villari Shaolin Kempo System. 

*14.0 Mitose Kempo Family Tree*

The original source is unknown (Inside Karate or Kung Fu I think) and was typeset by Paul Seaby (thanxs). 

  James Mitose                                                   Hoon Chow(KOSHO-RYU KENPO)                                            (SHAOLIN KUNG-FU)       |                                                             |       ---------------------------------------------------------------                                     |                             William K.S. Chow                          (Chinese KARA-HO KEMPO)                                     |           -----------------------------------------------------------           |                         |                  |            |       Ed Parker             Adriano Emperado    Masaichi Oshiro     |   (AMERICAN KENPO)             (KAJUKENBO)    (TE-KEN JUTSU KAI)    |           |                         |                               | -----------           ------------------------------                | |                     |             |              |           Nick Cerio |              Marino Tiwanak  John Leone    Sid Asuncion     (KENPO KARATE) |              (CHA03 KENPO)   (KAJUKENBO)     (KENKABO)            | |                                   |              |          Fred Villari |--Ralph Castro                     |              |       (AMERICAN SHAOLIN |  (SHAOLIN KENPO)                  |              |              KEMPO) |                             Bill Ryusaki    Al Dacascos |--Joe Dimmick                (KENPO KARATE)  (WON HOP KUEN DO) |  (SAM-PAI KENPO)                  |              | |                                   |          Malia Bernal |--Steve Sanders                    |         (BODY DEFENSE) |  (B.K.F KENPO)           ------------------- |                          |                 | |--Jim & Al Tracy    Sonny Gascon     Benny Urzuidez |  (TRACY'S KENPO) (GO-SHIN JUTSU)   (UKIDOKAN KARATE) | |--Tino Tuilosega |  (LIMA LAMA) | ---David German    (T.A.I KARATE)*15.0 Kempos speed striking*

An often intersting topic is Kempos "speed striking" techniques. The speed striking technique is primarily for building up the hand speed of the Kempo student which will eventually translate into combat effective speed of strikes in a confrontation. A good example of speed striking is seen throughout the move "The Perfect Weapon", and is a key training and fighting method. A Kempo student tries to build his reaction speed to a point where 10 or more strikes can be applied in a few seconds (someone noted 6 strikes per second or something).


----------



## Mekugi

Maybe James Mitose just wasn't "educated" in the way things are spelled in romanized Japanese (nor were his students, for that matter) and perhaps no one bothered to change it because they didn't care?  The Hepburn system should have been adhered to, that's the scholarly road at least. Kempo is in fact a combination of the words KEN- and -HOU. Together they are KEMPOU, properly. This is an actual word, which can be looked up in a dictionary and it's not a matter of the way someone wants it spelled or pronounced- unless of course it's used in a *name*, then "they/you" can spell things any way "they/you" want. Randi and Randy for instance. Tommi and Tommy. However, in Japanese the name pronounciation/reading takes a different route as a variation of kunyomi and onyomi can technically be summoned for kanji. 

Either way it doesn't seem to matter to people who speak Japanese. It's same thing as long as the Japanese characters are the same, it's just a case of "bad spelling" in romaji. SI and SHI are a prime example of this in kana- they are the same sounds over here, but you won't usually see people spelling things with the romanized SI.  

-Russ




			
				Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> To further confuse matters, four of those letters (all dated 1947) referred to the book by the title "What Is Self Defense _by_ Kempo Jiu-jitsu".  In a 1953 letter by Dr. Arthur Keawe, printed in the second edition (1980 reissue), Dr. Keawe uses the KeNpo spelling. Since Dr. Keawe was a direct student of Mitose, it may be assumed that both he and Thomas Young  knew how Mitose wished the name of the art to be spelled.
> I've heard the publisher's error story before, but in "Mitose's In Search of Kenpo" (published in 1984), the word is spelled "Kenpo" throughout.  Surely, if the "Kenpo" spelling was a publisher's error in 1953, it is unlikely that it would  have been repeated  in 1984 by a different publisher in a different book by the same author.
> Sorry if this doesn't help.  :asian:


----------



## kelly keltner

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I have heard this rumor from the Juchnik camp before. I would like to someday see a copy of this certificate, since this was a specific question I asked Thomas Young in a 1988 interview I had with him. His response at the time was "KeNpo". Another response was that he had never heard Mitose refer to the art as "Kosho Ryu", only "Kenpo Jiu Jitsu" and "Shorinji Kenpo".


Mr. Bishop if you feel the need to see a copy of that certificate all you need to do is talk to bruce juchnik I can arrange that if you wish to email me at kelly_m_keltner@juno.com and I will give you mr. juchniks phone number. It has changed recently. You can arrange to see a copy of that certificate.
yours in the arts
kelly


----------



## John Bishop

Thanks for the kind offer, but I already have contact information for Mr. Juchnik, and Arnold Golub, and Eugene Sedeno, and Rick Alemany, and Thomas Mitose and Ray Arquilla. 
But the most important thing is that I was given this information first hand by Thomas Young, Adriano Emperado, Wally Jay, and Sig Kufferath. All men that knew James Mitose in the 40's and 50's.
Another little know fact is that the "Official Self Defense Club" still exists in Hawaii today.  It was handed down to Thomas Young, who affliated it with Henry Okizaki's "American Jujitsu Institute" as the "Karate branch".  Prof. Young passed it down to Simeon Eli.  And it was passed down to Charles Lee after Simeon Eli died.  It is still affliated with the "American Jujitsu Institute" and they still spell it "KeNpo".


----------



## Mekugi

Isn't that right here(?):
http://www.oldpinetree.com/hanshi/certimg.html

"Pure and True Karate and Kenpo and Kosho Shorei Yoga"

Note: I dunno, I did a quick websearch. The link might be hooey. It does seem to have the word kenpo typed in though.




			
				kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Mr. Bishop if you feel the need to see a copy of that certificate all you need to do is talk to bruce juchnik I can arrange that if you wish to email me at kelly_m_keltner@juno.com and I will give you mr. juchniks phone number. It has changed recently. You can arrange to see a copy of that certificate.
> yours in the arts
> kelly


----------



## kelly keltner

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Thanks for the kind offer, but I already have contact information for Mr. Juchnik, and Arnold Golub, and Eugene Sedeno, and Rick Alemany, and Thomas Mitose and Ray Arquilla.
> But the most important thing is that I was given this information first hand by Thomas Young, Adriano Emperado, Wally Jay, and Sig Kufferath. All men that knew James Mitose in the 40's and 50's.
> Another little know fact is that the "Official Self Defense Club" still exists in Hawaii today. It was handed down to Thomas Young, who affliated it with Henry Okizaki's "American Jujitsu Institute" as the "Karate branch". Prof. Young passed it down to Simeon Eli. And it was passed down to Charles Lee after Simeon Eli died. It is still affliated with the "American Jujitsu Institute" and they still spell it "KeNpo".


I understand your point Mr. Bishop and I apreciate your insight. I myself have been to the location of the official self defense club on one or two occasions.  The honest to god truth is I don't care how Kenpo/kempo is spelled. The point you made is that the "Juchnik camp" was making claims  about a certain certificate of Thomas Young's.  Which Mr. Juchnik happens to have a copy of. Which was given to him by Proffesor Youngs family. I told you I could arrange that for you.  I have also told you I would connect you with Mr. Juchnik since his contact information has changed recently, But you can also recieve that from people like Mike Young. You could also problably get the new number from Jaime Basquez.  Who you might see this weekend if you are going to Mr. Emparado's gig in Vegas.  If you were so inclined to talk to him, Mr. Juchnik would problably show hours of video footage of interviews with Thomas Young, Anton Kruky, and Paul Yamaguchi. Also if you haven't already talked to Mr. Yamaguchi I could prablably try to make introductions for you. Paul and his wife Helen are wonderful, sweet people.  Anyway back on task. All of the aformentioned men Knew Mitose personally and had a chance to share their thoughts on the man on video with Mr. Juchnik.  Also
 Mr. Juchnik has copious amounts of information and documentation on Mitose. All you have to do is call.  I have spoken to Mr. Juchnik on this issue and he would love to talk to you and is happy to have an oppurtunity to share with you. once again email me any time. I would be happy to write or give you my number so we can speak.



kelly
p.s. If you go to vegas this weekend be sure to say hi to Jaime Basquez for me. I look forward to seeing hom at the gathering.


----------



## kelly keltner

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I understand your point Mr. Bishop and I apreciate your insight. I myself have been to the location of the official self defense club on one or two occasions. The honest to god truth is I don't care how Kenpo/kempo is spelled. The point you made is that the "Juchnik camp" was making claims about a certain certificate of Thomas Young's. Which Mr. Juchnik happens to have a copy of. Which was given to him by Proffesor Youngs family. I told you I could arrange that for you. I have also told you I would connect you with Mr. Juchnik since his contact information has changed recently, But you can also recieve that from people like Mike Young. You could also problably get the new number from Jaime Basquez. Who you might see this weekend if you are going to Mr. Emparado's gig in Vegas. If you were so inclined to talk to him, Mr. Juchnik would problably show hours of video footage of interviews with Thomas Young, Anton Kruky, and Paul Yamaguchi. Also if you haven't already talked to Mr. Yamaguchi I could prablably try to make introductions for you. Paul and his wife Helen are wonderful, sweet people. Anyway back on task. All of the aformentioned men Knew Mitose personally and had a chance to share their thoughts on the man on video with Mr. Juchnik. Also
> Mr. Juchnik has copious amounts of information and documentation on Mitose. All you have to do is call. I have spoken to Mr. Juchnik on this issue and he would love to talk to you and is happy to have an oppurtunity to share with you. once again email me any time. I would be happy to write or give you my number so we can speak.
> 
> 
> 
> kelly
> p.s. If you go to vegas this weekend be sure to say hi to Jaime Basquez for me. I look forward to seeing hom at the gathering.


 
I'm sorry sir I just got off the phone with Mr. Juchnik around 3p.m. and he chose to inform me my facts were incorrect. Mr. Juchnik was given a copy of Thomas Young's certificate from Thomas Young himself. He also chose to remind me of the fact that he held an eleven year friendship with Mr. Young and gave the eulogy at his memorial service.  Sorry for the mix up of my facts.  

yours in the arts

kell


----------



## John Bishop

Mekugi said:
			
		

> Isn't that right here(?):
> http://www.oldpinetree.com/hanshi/certimg.html
> 
> "Pure and True Karate and Kenpo and Kosho Shorei Yoga"
> 
> Note: I dunno, I did a quick websearch. The link might be hooey. It does seem to have the word kenpo typed in though.



It has always been spelled with a "N".  
1.  Yes this certificate issued to Bruce Juchnik by James Mitose spells Kenpo  with a "N".  

2. Thomas Young told me personally that Mitose spelled Kenpo with a "N".  

3. In a copy of a letter I have from Thomas Young to Robert Trias, Prof. Young spelled Kenpo with a "N" in every reference to the style, and signed the letter "Prof. Thomas Young, Oldest Living Student of Kosho-Shorei Kenpo".

4. In every copy of the "Kosho Shorei Newsletter" that I have from 1982 to 1985, Kenpo is always spelled with a "N".  And Mr Juchnik was one of the editors of that newsletter. 

5. In the 1988 4 part series on the "History of Kenpo" in "Fighting Arts International" magazine by Harry Cook, Mr. Juchnik, Mr. T. Mitose, and Dr. Golub are interviewed and pictured several times.  In every instance the term "Kenpo" is always used. 

6. In the June 1981 "Black Belt" article on the "History of Kenpo" written by  
  Dr. Golub the spelling is "Kenpo".

7. In the letters and writings I have from Robert Trias concerning his friendship and training with James Mitose in the 40's, he always refers to Mitose's style as "Kenpo".


----------



## Mekosho

Ummm, I dunno, maybe my response does not quite fit in here, but someone posted earlier that maybe GGM Mitose was not quite adept at the whole romanized spellings etc. This does make since as if you look over the material that Mr. Tracy has posted, copies of documents etc. he makes note that the misspelled words of Mitose are left uncorrected...this tells me, and of course I am no investigator, but this tells me, that Mr. Mitosde did not have a very high level of western education and therefore one has to understand that what words he writes may have a letter or two not right...do the math...would be a very easy mistake to make, M sounds like N, is right next to N in the alphabet, has only one extra hump, a cursive N looks just like a printed M...I mean, c'mon...I'll even bet I may have misspelled something in here as well as most of my other post...is something we as humans do..is a part of life!


----------



## kelly keltner

Dear Mr. Bishop

I have given you the oppurtunity to call Mr. Juchnik and see a copy of Thomas Young's certificate. On That certificate ken/mpo is spelled with an M. It doesn't matter in various  places in history it's spelled both ways. Many different reasons have been put forth as to why the difference in spelling. I have even heard that it was spelled with an n because because it was related to Mitose's buhddist name Kenposaikosho and the spelling with an n would be considered more personal. The fact is that it is spelled both ways. 
Who Knows

kelly


----------



## GAB

Hello, 
I have been reading quite a few of the translations that "Mr. Patrick McCarthy" has put into numerous books in the last few years.
Mr. Patrick McCarthy translated what he could (very difficult due to misprint as it was handed down with writng errors, human errors), The Bible of Karate, "Bubishi".

There are many explanations he refers to and several different "Bubishi", but obviously the same book (Patrick McCarthy statement).

One of the writings regarding Kempo coming from China to Okinawa to Japan is this, Patrick MCCarthy writes:
A sixth possibility is that the "Bubishi" was brought to Okinawa by Uechi Kanbun (1877-1948), the founder of Uechi-ryu. The Uechi-ryu karate-do tradition tells us Uechi went to Fuzhou (china) in 1897 where he ultimatly studied Guangdong Shaolin Temple Tiger Boxing directly under master Zhou Zihe (Shu Shiwa in Japanese).
One of Uechi Kanbun's students, Tomoyose (Tomoyori) Ryuyu (1897-1970),
an accomplished student of the fighting traditions, dedicated most of his life to writing an analysis of "kempo", vital point striking, and the application of Chinese herbal medicine. Entitled  Kempo Karate-jutsu Hiden (Secrets of Kempo Karate-jutsu), now owned by the Uechi family, addressed anumber of articles identical to the "Bubishi". Unfortunatly Tomoyose died before he was able to complete this analysis. The simularities are too frequent to doubt that the Uechi family once possessed a copy of the Bubishi.

I have noticed many connections with Kempo regarding the Medical side.
I remember a student of Hanshi Bruce's saying the real truth did not come out until Mitose was to write his last book. (he said, he did not tell the whites the true way). Just a thought, regarding some of the information that was given to Hanshi (if you want to believe or not) prior to Mitose dying.

Reminds me of a deathbed declaration, who say's it is always the truth? 
Does give credence...or not. 

The Bubishi is considered the "Bible of Karate" that came out of China to Okinawa then on to Japan. The term being the most popular now, which is Katate-do. I recommend this book for everyone in the Martial Arts.

Dave mentioned on the San Jose Kenpo board, we are all from the same denomination of Kenpo, I like that and it is very correct. Being from James Mitose!
Regards, Gary


----------



## kelly keltner

Mekugi said:
			
		

> Isn't that right here(?):
> http://www.oldpinetree.com/hanshi/certimg.html
> 
> "Pure and True Karate and Kenpo and Kosho Shorei Yoga"
> 
> Note: I dunno, I did a quick websearch. The link might be hooey. It does seem to have the word kenpo typed in though.


 
No the certificate I am refering to Is the one Mitose gave to Young When Young became a blackbelt

Kelly


----------



## kelly keltner

One other thing; In the book Karate's History and Traditions written by Bruce A. Haines. Which was first published in 1968. Kosho Ryu Kempo Is spelled with an M. It goes on to explain Mitose's art. There is a revised edition currently available through Tuttle Publications.

kelly


----------



## John Bishop

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Dear Mr. Bishop
> 
> I have given you the oppurtunity to call Mr. Juchnik and see a copy of Thomas Young's certificate. On That certificate ken/mpo is spelled with an M. It doesn't matter in various places in history it's spelled both ways. Many different reasons have been put forth as to why the difference in spelling. I have even heard that it was spelled with an n because because it was related to Mitose's buhddist name Kenposaikosho and the spelling with an n would be considered more personal. The fact is that it is spelled both ways.
> Who Knows
> 
> kelly


So let me get this right.  The certificate that James Mitose gave to Thomas Young has "Kempo" spelled with a "M".  And then we can all see that the certificate that James Mitose gave to Bruce Juchnik has "Kenpo" spelled with a "N".  So Mitose didn't even know how to spell Kenpo/Kempo?

And then I'm suppose to ask Mr. Juchnik for a copy of Thomas Young's certificate, so that I will know that Thomas Young was lying to me when he told me that James Mitose "always" spelled "Kenpo" with a "N"?

So then, it would only make sense that the certificates that Jiro Nakamura, Paul Yamaguichi, William Chow, Bobby Lowe, Arthur Keave, Rick Alemany, Eugene Sedeno, Arnold Golub, and Ray Arquilla received, all had "Kempo" spelled with a "M"?  I don't think so.   
You say Paul Yamaguichi is your friend.  Have you seen his certificate from Mitose? If so, how did Mitose spell Kenpo/Kempo on that one?


----------



## Mekugi

As a note here, the Bubishi that Mr. McCarthy is writing about (the old Japanese document that includes illustrations, mind you) is  likely a copy of a "White Crane Fist" document that made it's way to Okinawa. Mr. McCarthy focuses on this in his work, as it is the most probable source for the document. How it arrived in Okinawa, however, is a little more complicated.

Furthermore, at his seminars, Mr. McCarthy gives step by step instruction, analysis and interpretation in terms of the Japanese Kata and the Chinese "White Crane". From what I understand it is perhaps *the most* complete approach anyone has ever attempted regarding the outside influences on Okinawa martial arts. 

If anyone is interested in this type of material, Mr. McCarthy does travel the world teaching his wares and is available for seminars and clinics. 

Mr. McCarthy also heads the "International RyuKyu Karate Jutsu Reasearch Society" which is open for membership.
For more information, please check out:
http://www.society.webcentral.com.au/

NOTE: I don not have a connection to Patrick McCarthy, so I am not advertising for him. I thought it would be nice to post information on here for those interested, seeing that it came up in the thread of conversation. 

-Russ



			
				GAB said:
			
		

> Hello,
> One of the writings regarding Kempo coming from China to Okinawa to Japan is this, Patrick MCCarthy writes:
> A sixth possibility is that the "Bubishi" was brought to Okinawa by Uechi Kanbun (1877-1948), the founder of Uechi-ryu. The Uechi-ryu karate-do tradition tells us Uechi went to Fuzhou (china) in 1897 where he ultimatly studied Guangdong Shaolin Temple Tiger Boxing directly under master Zhou Zihe (Shu Shiwa in Japanese).
> Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

Hello Mekugi,

Thanks for posting the web and the other information, I hold Mr Patrick McCarthy in high esteem. I have (like i said) purchased quit a few of his books and others on the topic of Motobu, Bubishi, and Okinawan Martial Arts.

I believe the information he is showing us through his translations is very good for understanding where/how the Martial arts we know, got across the big pond.  Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

As I was reading these posts, very interesting to say the least and I also heard the one that the publisher confused Mitose's Buddhist name of Kenposaikosho for the name of the art but that's not why I'm posting. I know I'm a little sidetracked here but some thing 'rang a bell' in my head when I was reading one of the posts. It was on Mitose's education being weak. BINGO! We all can agree that there has been a long controversial battle as to either prove or disprove whether Mitose went to Japan at the age of 3-4 years and stayed throughout his formulative years, maybe about 15 years, so he comes back to Hawaii at 18-19 years old after receiving his education in Japan. Has anyone every checked school records in Hawaii to see if he attended school there during these years? Surely, there must be some record if he did.  He would have had to enter a public school, wouldn't he? He appears to have some sort of education. These are public records. He must have had teachers and classmates? Has anyone ever explored this possibility?


----------



## GAB

Hello: 
I have heard that James M. Mitose, went by various names in his life it would be interesting to be able to follow the trail, via the AKA.
They did not have the ability to hook them up as well in days gone by, but they must have done something about AKA. ie. interned, school, jail, going to Japan and returning, etc.
Maybe when he was on the mainland he might have used similar names, and they could be checked and cross checked? (back to hawaii) 
Good thought, Professor. 
Regards, Gary


----------



## KenpoDave

GAB said:
			
		

> Dave mentioned on the San Jose Kenpo board, we are all from the same denomination of Kenpo, I like that and it is very correct. Being from James Mitose!
> Regards, Gary



Actually, I said, "We are all denominations of the same art."


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hello:
> I have heard that James M. Mitose, went by various names in his life it would be interesting to be able to follow the trail, via the AKA.
> They did not have the ability to hook them up as well in days gone by, but they must have done something about AKA. ie. interned, school, jail, going to Japan and returning, etc.
> Maybe when he was on the mainland he might have used similar names, and they could be checked and cross checked? (back to hawaii)
> Good thought, Professor.
> Regards, Gary



Yes Gary, this is true. He did use an alias which has been recently uncovered by the forthcoming A&E investigation scheduled for release in early 2005. Perhaps the 'Mitose enigma' will be finally coming to a conclusion. However, the controversy will never end unless all are willing to keep an open mind and accept the facts as 'facts' whatever they may be. I have complete faith that Professor Jaime Abregana is conducting an unbiased, intensive and factual investigation in an honest attempt to seperate fact from fiction and present an historically accurate history of the birth of the martial arts in Hawaii. Some on this forum are concerned over 'bias' in this investigation. All I can tell you is Professor Abregana is a man of integrity but also remember he has nothing to gain and nothing to lose no matter what direction this investigation takes. His lineage is through Marino Tiwanik's C.H.A. 3 Kenpo which was a forerunner of Kajukenbo. I'll say something else about the Okinawan connection we have discussed on this forum. Professor Eugene Sedeno stated that Professor Chow taught forms in those early years. He recalls that the forms were Okinawan. Now, couple that with others who stated Mitose practiced Naihanchi Shodan. Sijo Emperado stated he recalls the elders of the time saying the kenpo was Okinawan in origin but never heard any facts to back up that belief. Again, as a history major I can tell you, all history, world & U.S., has controversies and inaccuracies but hopefully all the major questions of Mitose's background will finally be answered.


----------



## GAB

Dave, 

Thank you, Gary


----------



## Mekugi

OK...I don't believe that someone would have a Buddhist (Bukkyo) name of "Kenposaikosho"; I suppose it could happen, but I would like to see the proof at the Terra where that name would be registered. 

Secondly, the Hepburn system has been around since the turn of the 20th century for romanizing the Japanese language. If he was educated in Japan, it certainly didn't sink in at all because the little rule that follows the "m" and "n" is obvious. As far as his English went, he seems to have been very capable of writing letters on his own and he had at least some mastery of the language. I would reason that he wanted to call it "kenpo" for his own reasons, and not because of being illiterate.



			
				Karazenpo said:
			
		

> As I was reading these posts, very interesting to say the least and I also heard the one that the publisher confused Mitose's Buddhist name of Kenposaikosho for the name of the art but that's not why I'm posting. I know I'm a little sidetracked here but some thing 'rang a bell' in my head when I was reading one of the posts. It was on Mitose's education being weak. BINGO! We all can agree that there has been a long controversial battle as to either prove or disprove whether Mitose went to Japan at the age of 3-4 years and stayed throughout his formulative years, maybe about 15 years, so he comes back to Hawaii at 18-19 years old after receiving his education in Japan. Has anyone every checked school records in Hawaii to see if he attended school there during these years? Surely, there must be some record if he did. He would have had to enter a public school, wouldn't he? He appears to have some sort of education. These are public records. He must have had teachers and classmates? Has anyone ever explored this possibility?


----------



## bzarnett

Although we all talk about Kenpo or Kempo, there are actually additional spellings found in various books depending on when the initial translation was done in the 20th century. Funakoshi's book includes a spelling of Kenpo with very specific accents that would render linguistically both spellings incorrect.

In addition, Japanese-to-English and English-to-Japanese dictionaries sometimes spell Kenpo differently as well (print versions).

In Ed Parkers Infinite Insights book, he makes comments that it was Chow who spelt it with an _n_ versus _m_ to make a distinction. Saying that, the first English translation of Funakoshi's book was available in the late 40s I believe and spelt Kenpo with an _n_ although the entire word was heavily accented.

---
Bryan Zarnett
Sphere of Influence
www.SphereOfInfluence.ca


----------



## GAB

Hello,
Hello:

Least we forget, James Mitose was first and foremost a con man.

That said I still feel he has a solid place in history, we cannot get around that whether we spell it with an M or an N. 

I also think this will prove without a doubt, the genuis of the various Major players, in the development of Kenpo and Kempo. 

I think he liked playing the ends against the middle and back again. Part of his warped sense of stability. I am truly looking forward to the A&E Doc, the people who unravel this, need all the help they can get. 

If what the Professor said is true, That the persons are Honorable, (I have no reason to doubt the statement.)

I wish them good luck. This in my mind is sort of like having a different set of indivduals (commission) to review it, put it into its proper context, along with the other 4 parts that will be aired. 
Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hello,
> Hello:
> 
> Least we forget, James Mitose was first and foremost a con man.
> 
> That said I still feel he has a solid place in history, we cannot get around that whether we spell it with an M or an N.
> 
> I also think this will prove without a doubt, the genuis of the various Major players, in the development of Kenpo and Kempo.
> 
> I think he liked playing the ends against the middle and back again. Part of his warped sense of stability. I am truly looking forward to the A&E Doc, the people who unravel this, need all the help they can get.
> 
> If what the Professor said is true, That the persons are Honorable, (I have no reason to doubt the statement.)
> 
> I wish them good luck. This in my mind is sort of like having a different set of indivduals (commission) to review it, put it into its proper context, along with the other 4 parts that will be aired.
> Regards, Gary



Correct Gary, regardless of his character, he does have a solid place in history and it is soooooooooo obvious why some still insist on cutting him out of their lineage. I said this once, I'll say it again and for the 100th time, I will stand by it and dispute it with anyone. Their are currently 3 Key figures in the Hawaiin-derived Kenpo and they are: Mitose/Chow/Emperado. Bottom line! If you studied with Gascon, Pesare, Cerio or Villari, you're connected to Emperado who is connected to Chow and Mitose. If you studied under Parker, you're connected to Chow who is connected to Mitose. If you studied under Chow, you're connected to Mitose. If you studied with Tracy, you're connected to Chow & Mitose. If you studied with Thomas Young, you're connected to Mitose. Redundant, I know, but do I need to go on? The question is not the above but the question or controversy is who did Mitose train under? After that, whether some like it or not, it's etched in stone. Man, why don't the Democrats just cut Richard Nixon out of the lineage of  the presidency because he resigned in disgrace over the Watergate scandel! Hell, that should negate any positive contributions he accomplished as president, right? or maybe the Republicans feel Bill Clinton's ethics, character and morals are definitely in question after his impeachment, so, while we're at it, let's cut him out of the lineage too, despite all his positive accomplishments. See what I mean? I am not a fan of 'Mitose, the man', he could have been another Charles Manson (hypothetically), but I'm a firm believer in the phrase, 'give the devil his due' and it is totally historically innaccurate to cut him from YOUR lineage because you don't like the man, sorry, he was there, he was the catalyst that started this kenpo thing. Was he a good, solid martial artist of his day, some say yes, some say no. I don't know either, never saw him do anything, never saw a lot of people do anything but that doesn't matter either because his decendants have certainly proved  themselves to be great martial artists! Isn't the goal of every teacher is to train their students in the hopes they surpass their chief instructor someday? or is it all  ego and b.s.? Again, I wish not to argue with anyone but we have rely on the facts as best we can when discussing history and whether Mitose trained in Japan, Hawaii, both or was self taught from a book and a few lessons does not negate the FACT of his position in history and the lineage of the many kenpo offshoots we have today. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras


----------



## The Kai

Here's is a rather far out theory.....

It was the interaction between Miose, Chow and some of the senior students (i.e. Emperado) that gave rise to Kenpo.  In my little humble Dojo we acknowledge both Miose and Chow.  Other infuencial figures (Parker, Emperado etc.) are acknowledged (BTW your lineage comes through Mr. Alemany).
Currently love him or not Hanshi Juchnik is a hell of a organizer, and leader fot the Kenpo arts.  yes, he has his own adgenda (so do I).  As a leader he is a Lighting rod for all good and bad comments.
Mr Chapel - I have not had the opurtunity to work with him and do look forward to doing so.  He too is a leader
Perhaps two strong forces do not co-exist well?
In defense of Hanshi Juchnik< I;m not doubting Me. Chapel's comments, but I have seen hanshi do Kata and he is damm good.  So maybe things change?  Maybe Mr. Chapel saw Hanshi at a point of re-educating his motions (from Tracy's Kenpo to a Japanese "flavor"). I don't know I was'nt there, Mr Chapel is highly regarded-but I wanted to put my 2 cents out there
Here's my outlook True Martial Artists are a rare breed (less than %5 of population or so), Discount the fools, and Mcdojo spawned Black Belts and the number becomes rarer.  kenpo is a awesome martial Art, let's work together to get Kenpo organizes, loosely organized and erecognized!~
Todd


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## Kenpomachine

EPAK people Mitose is like the grandfather who existed but never showed up. Yes, he could have taught Chow many things, but the grandson saught his kwoledge elsewhere, besides what he learnt from his dad. Plus, this is not a bloodline.


----------



## The Kai

[besides what he learnt from his dad}
True, very true


----------



## Karazenpo

Kenpomachine said:
			
		

> EPAK people Mitose is like the grandfather who existed but never showed up. Yes, he could have taught Chow many things, but the grandson saught his kwoledge elsewhere, besides what he learnt from his dad. Plus, this is not a bloodline.



In all due respect, there it is again. Some perpetuate myths of Mitose, other Chow. Who ever said Chow studied under his father? Yes, I've read it too on the net and in magazine articles. His father, from everything I have researched was no Kung Fu master and taught him nothing. Chow stated he learned secret techniques of Kung Fu from his father and grandfather through 'DREAMS'...... Yes, this is fact, as stated in an interview with Adriano Emperado, not to mention other sources have also quoted Chow on this. If anyone has verfication that will hold up to scrutiny that he did, please let me know and I will defend it. Believe me, this is in no way discrediting Professor Chow as far as his legendary fighting prowess & knowledge goes but c'ome on, if Hanshi Juchnik posted that Mitose studied kenpo form his grandfather in Japan through 'dreams' everyone would be all over him, true? The only other connection we have of Chow's training with another instructor is Professor Henry S. Okazaki in Danzan ryu Jui Jitsu, however, we can also make a connection with Mitose and Okazaki, no paper trail from either one of them, though. I attempted to track if he went to some kwoons in Hawaii in his pursuit of the Chinese arts but I was told during that era in Hawaii, there was much prejudice and he would not have been welcome. Chow was not full Chinese and would have been treated the same way as Bruce Lee was in San Fransico in the 60's. This is what I have been told anyway. The only paper trail from Chow is his certificate signed by Thomas Young, Mitose's first black belt. Techniques shown in Mitose's book, irregardless whether it has been plagarized or not, also show up in EPAK, Gm. Robert Trias' Shuri-te (Okinawan Shorei-ryu Kenpo Karate), Chow's Kempo and other Hawaiian-derived Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo systems. Since Mr. Parker never learned anything from Mitose then it most likely came from Chow. The first recognition of such techniques of Mr. Parker's were in his early book of (1960) entitled Kenpo Karate: Law of the Fist and Empty Hand. Others on this forum have stated that specific techniques from this book and Mitose's have survived today in EPAK, perhaps modified but none the less the basis. Chow was an 'uke' in that book (Mitose's), so yes, I would have to say Mitose taught Chow 'some things'. You see, I'm just attempting to get away from any personal bias, feelings, alliegances or whatever, and conduct a factual account of history. I have asked  specific sources on this question on Chow's father teaching him Kung Fu for a verification and documentation but have been ignored.  Silence sometimes says it all! So, I guess I got my answer. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras


----------



## Kenpomachine

Well, you misunderstood me completely. That was just a comparison between lineage (Mitose-Chow-Parker) and a family. In this example, the father was Chow and the grandson is Parker. So it was the grandson the one who sought kwnoledge besides what he learnt from his father, not Chow (in this comparison Chow's dad would be Mitose). That's why I said also that it was not a bloodline I was talking about.

I thought it was clear, but I guess my english is not that good, ha.

So here it is again, missing verb included
"EPAK people *thinks* Mitose is like the grandfather who existed but never showed up. Yes, he *(Mitose)* could have taught Chow many things, but the grandson *(Parker)* saught his kwoledge elsewhere, besides what he *(Parker)* learnt from his dad *(Chow)*.


----------



## Karazenpo

Kenpomachine said:
			
		

> Well, you misunderstood me completely. That was just a comparison between lineage (Mitose-Chow-Parker) and a family. In this example, the father was Chow and the grandson is Parker. So it was the grandson the one who sought kwnoledge besides what he learnt from his father, not Chow (in this comparison Chow's dad would be Mitose). That's why I said also that it was not a bloodline I was talking about.
> 
> I thought it was clear, but I guess my english is not that good, ha.
> 
> So here it is again, missing verb included
> "EPAK people *thinks* Mitose is like the grandfather who existed but never showed up. Yes, he *(Mitose)* could have taught Chow many things, but the grandson *(Parker)* saught his kwoledge elsewhere, besides what he *(Parker)* learnt from his dad *(Chow)*.



Sorry about that, I had a rough day!, lol. It's probably that I'm so used to that position being taken by some when it comes to Mitose and lineage that I didn't read deep enough into your post. Again, I apologize for misinterpreting it. After reading it again, you did a good job, it was me that screwed up. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

PS: I do stand by what I stated in the post and welcome other people's insights.


----------



## Mekugi

Well, despite the spellings you find in various books, phonetically you will hear this word pronounced keMpo in Japanese every time, regardless of what any cheese-smelling whitebread like myself would say.  



			
				bzarnett said:
			
		

> Although we all talk about Kenpo or Kempo, there are actually additional spellings found in various books depending on when the initial translation was done in the 20th century. Funakoshi's book includes a spelling of Kenpo with very specific accents that would render linguistically both spellings incorrect.
> 
> In addition, Japanese-to-English and English-to-Japanese dictionaries sometimes spell Kenpo differently as well (print versions).
> 
> In Ed Parkers Infinite Insights book, he makes comments that it was Chow who spelt it with an _n_ versus _m_ to make a distinction. Saying that, the first English translation of Funakoshi's book was available in the late 40s I believe and spelt Kenpo with an _n_ although the entire word was heavily accented.
> 
> ---
> Bryan Zarnett
> Sphere of Influence
> www.SphereOfInfluence.ca


----------



## Karazenpo

Mekugi said:
			
		

> Well, despite the spellings you find in various books, phonetically you will hear this word pronounced keMpo in Japanese every time, regardless of what any cheese-smelling whitebread like myself would say.



Yes, agreed. The research I have done also concluded it is always a phonetically pronounced 'm' even if spelled 'n'. To comment on Mr. Zarnett, I was told that the Japnese do not go by those translation dictionaries, they are for tourists or guys like us. I think John Bishop told me this but I'm not sure. If it was John, he should know, his mother is Japanese. Perhaps, he will comment. The Chow 'n' thing in Infinite Insights into Kenpo is inaccurate. Just re-read all the posts on this topic, it was Mitose who inadvertantly used the 'n' spelling. This one should be easy enough to verify. As a matter of fact from what I've learned Chow changed it from an 'n' to an 'm' in 1981. As matter of fact, I recall that personally because many followed suit back then, including one of my instructos, when it came out in all the martial art mags. In all due respect to Mr. Parker's books, like most martial arts books on the market, there are many historical inaccuracies due to misinformation, disinformation and/or bias. You just can't take everything you read as gospel no matter who wrote it and yes, I include myself, unless you check it out. When I post something I attempt to give some type of documentation and verification so that whoever reads it can check it out. I don't expect and shouldn't expect anyone to take it on face value just because I said it is so. Like in a police investigation, you need evidence, documentation and verfication in what you report or conclude, not blind faith because of who authored it. We have all been victim to 'misinformation' at one time or another in our carreers. If my memory is fuzzy on something and I can't recall or I'm not sure of my source, I will express that in the hopes someone out there can verify.


----------



## Karazenpo

Here's a theory I'd like to put forward for comment. Again, I am not stating this as fact, just an idea to throw around. This goes back to a previous post of lineage and why some do not include Mitose and also ties in Chow's father teaching him Kung Fu prior to training with Mitose. Documentation of what I'm about to say comes from an issue of, I believe, Black Belt magazine, however, if pressed for verification, I DO have the back issue and can go find it if neccessary. In this issue, Chow is quoted that Mitose taught him nothing, that he was a 'black belt' long before he ever met Mitose and that his father was his teacher. He goes on to call Mitose a 'con man' and so forth. Obviously this was long after their parting of the ways. Here's my point. Chow was a Mitose Balck Belt from the Official Self Defense Club period-a paper trail, as we say in police, leads right to Thomas Young and Mitose, not to mention pictures and Mitose's book where Chow was an uke. Now, the 'bad stuff' starts getting out about Mitose, not to mention the final blow with his incarceration for murder, kidnapping and extortion. Chow must take some heat, some real heat from the martial arts community due to his association with Mitose. Mitose's martial arts background later comes into question. Due to all the above, Chow decides to distance himself from Mitose and give his training a fresh new lineage. It was like, okay, so Mitose is a con man, his martial arts is in question, well, don't question me, I was already a black belt long before Mitose and I was trained by my father. However, when pressed for verfication, Chow has to state his training was from  'dreams'. (Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just referencing the articles). In my opinion, again opinion, I feel Chow was the first to do this and later, others followed suit. Something to think about anyway. Look at it this way, if this is correct, all the pieces fit together and it all makes sense. Unless of course, someone can legitmately verify Chow's father and/or grandfather and this whole kung fu thing that's been perpetuated for decades. I' don't think so. Please let me reitterate, this is in no disrepect to Chow and his system just attempting to find valid rationale of this fragmented and implausible history. Professor Chow was one of the great pioneers of modern Chinese Kenpo/Kempo and his contributions are deeply appreciated by the martial arts community. If my reasoning is true, I can understand why he did it. Mitose was and still is in the 'heat of controversy'. I kind of don't blame him!


----------



## kelly keltner

John 

First and foremost make the phone call and quit dancing around the issue.
second the word kempo has been spelled with both an m and an n in various places and times in history. I quoted Bruce A. Haines book which was published in 1968 in a previous post. If you look in the footnotes section in the back much of the information he used came from interviews he did with Mitose around 19588-60. In that book Kosho Ryu Kempo is spelled with an M.
Thirdly I never called anyone, especially Thomas Young a liar. My personal opinion is that it problably didn't matter much to Mitose how Kempo was spelled. It problably didn't matter to Young either. Did you audio or video tape the interview you did with him? Bottom line is the certificate says what it says, and the fact remains that Thomas Young had an close eleven year relationship with Bruce Juchnik. Yes Paul Yamaguichi is a friend of mine, no I have not seen his certificate.
Bottom line is make the call man. If you need the number email me.

kelly


----------



## kelly keltner

I'll tell you what John. Let's put it to an informal poll. How many people in internet land, in the martialtalk corner of the universe think that John Bishop should communicate with Hanshi Bruce Juchnik and view Thomas Young's black belt certification? Let's rehash this so everyone is up to speed.

John Bishop states that the "Juchnik camp" has claimed to have a copy of Thomas Young's black belt certificate. On that certificate the"Juchnik camp" claims that kenpo is spelled with an M. Along comes yours truly Kelly Keltner. I Know Mr. Juchnik has this documentation and offer to facillitate a viewing for Mr. Bishop. Mr. Bishop Declines. He then goes on to state that kenpo has always been spelled with an N. I then cited a book that had info based on an interview back in the late 1950's in which Mitose not only refers to his art as Kosho Ryu, but also refers to kempo spelled with an M.

So now that everyone is up to speed. The question of the day. Should John Bishop call Hanshi Bruce Juchnik and arrange to see a copy of Thomas Young's certificate? All replies are welcome.

Yours in the arts

kelly


----------



## kelly keltner

Mekugi said:
			
		

> OK...I don't believe that someone would have a Buddhist (Bukkyo) name of "Kenposaikosho"; I suppose it could happen, but I would like to see the proof at the Terra where that name would be registered.
> 
> Secondly, the Hepburn system has been around since the turn of the 20th century for romanizing the Japanese language. If he was educated in Japan, it certainly didn't sink in at all because the little rule that follows the "m" and "n" is obvious. As far as his English went, he seems to have been very capable of writing letters on his own and he had at least some mastery of the language. I would reason that he wanted to call it "kenpo" for his own reasons, and not because of being illiterate.


I don't know anything about a buddhist name having to be registered I do believe that was what he claimed his buddhist name to be on his buisness card. Whether he was telling the truth I cannot say.

kelly


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## Mekosho

Seems to me that if I was paying someone to investigate something for me, I would want that person to use ALL available resources...unless of course, I had my own hidden agenda that we refer to on here quite often, well then, maybe things would be different...Anyways...ya got my vote Kelly!!!


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## Karazenpo

Mekosho said:
			
		

> Seems to me that if I was paying someone to investigate something for me, I would want that person to use ALL available resources...unless of course, I had my own hidden agenda that we refer to on here quite often, well then, maybe things would be different...Anyways...ya got my vote Kelly!!!



It appears to me, sir, you are off track in your response to Kelly. It is not John Bishop who is working on the A&E investigation of which your response implies. It is Professor Jaime Abregana and there is No hidden agenda on his part. I have also put Kelly in touch with Professor Abregana. If I may speak for the Professor (and I asked his permission) it doesn't matter to him one way or the other how this turns out. He has no vested interest in the Mitose saga, for or against. He is not of the Parker lineage who is negative on the Mitose claims or the Tracy people who are positive, nor is he Kosho ryu, as I stated before he's of the C.H.A. 3 Kenpo roots, a forerunner of Kajukenbo. As for John Bishop, I have found him to be open, honest and very helpful whenever I corresponded with him with any questions, whether by phone or through e-mail. My point is, if you have something to address to John, just e-mail him and I'm sure he will answer you.


----------



## KempoJoe

i think John Bishop hould get int touch with Hanshi Juchnik himself. Because it doesnt sound like anyone is getting anywhere. Ive met and train w/Hanshi and he would answer and questioned asked. thenk you

Joe
United Martial Art Academie
New Hampshire


----------



## GAB

To: The Kai:

Todd, when you are saying (btw regarding Rick Alemany) to whom are you addressing?

I don't think Professor Shuras, needs to apoligize for misinturpreting what you are saying, I am a little confused at the way, you have in addressing everyone and no one at the same time. Making statements as to his father and grandfather in a family way. Pretty confusing to say the least.

I do believe it has been alluded to more than several times in his own camp that ED Parker was the one who started the story about Professor Chow and his Father being a Kung Fu teacher. I have read it many times on various web sights.

I am not trying to have a problem with this thread but I see it starting to go south regarding the various statements, which should, maybe be held in private messages. I think it is a good post and don't want to see it locked up.

Regards, Gary


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Much ado about nothing?

I trained with a kenpo teacher for a good many years who, earlier in his life, set out on a search for "true" chinese kempo/kenpo. He had an 8th degree cert from Chow with celebratory snapshots...trained with some KJKB gentleman, but I know not whom; some Parker-breakaway boys, I know not whom; and finally took his quest to Japan, where he trained in Chinese Kenpo/Kempo (sp?) with a Japanese fellow for several years, obtaining a black belt ranking with some title, I know not what (combined his stuff from various locations with Judo & TKD, and..based on the repeatedly similar motions cropping up in MA's worldwide, called it "Universal Chinese Kenpo-Jujutsu"). Returned from his world-hopping mecca-seek with a couple of points regarding the history of kem/npo from Hawaii, for all of the downlines:

EVERYBODY IS WRONG, AND SHOULD JUST GET OVER IT, BECAUSE EVERYBODY (from the Hawaiian lines) IS DOING STUFF THAT IS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE SOPHISTICATED THAN THE GUYS WITH PROPER PEDIGREES/LINEAGES IN JAPAN!!!

When on a few occasions I could get him to wax nostalgic and show me the Japanese version of Chinese Kenpo (weird, huh?), the moves were more like jujutsu entanglements and takedowns, with a bunch of atemi worked in during the engaging, entangling, and finishing (hit him often while dropping him to the floor with kote-gaeshi or katate-dori ich, then hit him some more when he's down). The strikes were NOT the rapid-fire semi-circular moves recognized as kem/npo-related here in the US, but rather singular, robotic strikes, or repeated robotic strikes (imagine three outward chops all in a row to one isolated target, to ensure broken bones).

So my question is this: If what we are doing is a better, next step in the evolution of percussion striking arts, who gives a big stinky poop about the pedigree? Few EPAK's today teach what Parker taught (largely, I ponder, because it went by too fast and they missed it); Parker did not teach what he was taught by Chow, who did not teach what he was taught by Mitose. So, ultimately, who cares?

Does what you do *work*?
Can you teach someone else how to do something that will *work*?

Most kem/npo folk I meet (from any camp) would have a hard time fighting their way out of a wet paper bag with a buck-knife...and that's a criticism coming from a guy for whom kenpo is a long-time fascination. Worry less about pieces of paper and spelling, and more about getting the job done.

Train hard, make lots of mistakes and learn from them, and bleed often in your endeavors. Otherwise, it's only dancing. And I don't WANT a combat pedigree from Fred Astaire.

Dr. Dave


----------



## Karazenpo

Dr. Dave, good points, I can't argue that and wouldn't because I agree. I have felt for years that the American versions of Kenpo/Kempo are much better tuned to modern day combat than the Japanese & Okinawan traditionalists. I was in one of those styles when I first started out (1973) and that is why I left, I viewed a modern Chinese kempo class and I was sold. I think most of us are quite aware of the effectiveness of the Americanized versions and their superiority over the older arts practiced in Japan and even here. The point of these posts, however, is about historical accuracy. I think most of us aren't arguing in defense of each other's art's effectiveness over the old but the perpetuating of myths that keeps getting handed down decade after decade from instructor to student. It's about time we got to the bottom of things because our history is an integral part of our art if we wish to be a well rounded martial artist. Gm. S. George Pesare has a saying about knowing one's history and lineage. It goes something like this: " You can't know where you're going to if you don't know where you came from". Well put I think. Students' will always ask these questions on lineage and history and it gets confusing when different instructors give different answers to the same damn questions. It makes us all look like asses. A student will also pick up on if you choose to skirt around the answer too.  It's about time we all got on the same page but the only way to do that is through unbiased and factual investigations and the willingness to let go of the myths no matter how nice they may sound. Just my thoughts.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

to get back to the original question.........

What is the difference between kempo and kenpo?
absolutely nothing. Kempo is about study, nothing more, nothing less. The term itself has roots that go back 1000's of years. Try not to get caught up in minor things, Ken - the fist represents a scroll, which represents knowledge, Ho means law, or divine commandment. One tempers his actions with knowledge and understanding, to overcome that which blocks his path. 
personal growth is the hallmark of the kempo man or woman.
Reliance on others for understanding blocks the gateway of one's own awakening


----------



## Mekosho

Guess I've been told...lol!


----------



## Mekosho

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> It appears to me, sir, you are off track in your response to Kelly. It is not John Bishop who is working on the A&E investigation of which your response implies. It is Professor Jaime Abregana and there is No hidden agenda on his part. I have also put Kelly in touch with Professor Abregana. If I may speak for the Professor (and I asked his permission) it doesn't matter to him one way or the other how this turns out. He has no vested interest in the Mitose saga, for or against. He is not of the Parker lineage who is negative on the Mitose claims or the Tracy people who are positive, nor is he Kosho ryu, as I stated before he's of the C.H.A. 3 Kenpo roots, a forerunner of Kajukenbo. As for John Bishop, I have found him to be open, honest and very helpful whenever I corresponded with him with any questions, whether by phone or through e-mail. My point is, if you have something to address to John, just e-mail him and I'm sure he will answer you.[/QUOTE
> 
> As for John Bishop, I too have found him to be easy to correspond with in this forum, and he has not in anyway, as far as I know, held back in any of his responses...therfore, I have no need to e-mail him at this point, but thank you for the suggestion nonetheless.
> 
> As far as the "Mitose saga" goes, I DO have a vested interest in the outcome, therefore, I DO want an unbiased, no stone left unturned investigation. If that can be accomplished, well then I will owe an apology, and will give it sincerely...


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## Mekugi

Not many people would know these kinds of things unless, well, you knew about it.

Generally, if you want a Buddhist name, usually you have to A) Die B) Become a monk or C) do something extraordinary and get some kind of honorary recognition (Sometimes after death as well).

Usually, if someone dies, you would pay a tithing to the temple to get the name. Usually, the loftier the fee the more prestigious the name. In that case, the name would be on record there at the temple it was given.

If one became a monk, there is no secrecy about it; the name would be given, you would be recorded as to where you became a monk and the name you were given. All the specifics would be kept in check.

If you did something extraordinary, and were given a Buddhist name, again it would be recorded.

 Like that there.

Always, 

-Russ






			
				kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I don't know anything about a buddhist name having to be registered I do believe that was what he claimed his buddhist name to be on his buisness card. Whether he was telling the truth I cannot say.
> 
> kelly


----------



## kelly keltner

I'm sorry professor I thought in an earlier post on a seperate thread someone had stated that John Bishop was hired to do some of the investigation on James Mitose for the A&E special. I could be mistaken. If I am I apologize for my lapse of memory.
One other thing in response to post #16 in this thread. I would direct you to post #7 in the thread entitled: What is kenpo/kempo. Don't forget to take note of who the author is on both posts.


Kelly


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> " You can't know where you're going to if you don't know where you came from".


Prof Shuras:

You know I'm with you on most stuff most of the time. But I fail to see how one is unable to look forward without looking back. I don't drive the countryside with my gaze fixed in the rear-view mirror. I tell my history buff students that the kenpo history is a mess, made worse by politics and paper trails, but that they should be grateful to the forefathers for their ingenuity because it has, at each level and regardless of the causes, created a fine family of systems to study.

The butterfly does not emerge from its coccoon concerned about life as a caterpillar; it concerns itself with the business of being a butterfly, and proceeds with life from that point, forward. Snakes to do not ponder the fates of their shed skins. Phoenix's arise from the ashes to fly off, not pick through the ashes looking for the bones of their former selves.

Respectfully,

Dave


----------



## Karazenpo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I'm sorry professor I thought in an earlier post on a seperate thread someone had stated that John Bishop was hired to do some of the investigation on James Mitose for the A&E special. I could be mistaken. If I am I apologize for my lapse of memory.
> 
> Kelly



Kelly, as far as I know, it was Professor Abregana who is doing the A&E investigation and it was he who has so far unraveled some of the Mitose mystery. Don't forget though, Mitose is only part of this investigation. Possibly John Bishop is being consulted on other pioneers whom he has personal and documented knowledge of. Remember, John was a very popular free lance writer for all the major martial art mags for years! I do know when John and I spoke of the Mitose situation it was in confidence and was from information he received from Professor Abregana. I kept my word and did not mention anything on these forums or to others until John was ready and posted about it publically (the true Okinawan connection, etc.). Since then, I have spoken to Professor Abregana personally and he is the one who came upon this new information so, again, as I said before, the Professor has no hidden agenda and is simply following leads just like a police detective conducting an investigation. He has no vested interest. Mekosho, you stated you do have a vested interest. Could you please explain? I mean, it appears you are of the Kosho ryu system. So what if Mitose took the basis for his style of kenpo from the Motobu lineage via Tabura Tanamaha? As Mitose stated his art is still Chinese in origin since Okinawan Kenpo credits the Chinese as the prime contributors or their art. Mitose stated one of his ancient relatives, Kosho was responsible to bringing it from China to Japan. Well, Kusanku, the Chinese emmissary/general brought Chu'an fa from southern China to Okinawa, Japan and even left a form with his name and low and behold, one of the spellings of Kusanku is KOSHOkun! Ancient relative could have actually mean't kenpo brother, we use that term all the time, 'our kenpo brothers'. Some embellishment there? yeah, but there is much embellishment in all arts. One of my lineage charts in my school is Nick Cerio's Kenpo Family Tree of Black Belts. Now, my wife and I are listed on it. It shows Professor Cerio directly under Professor Chow and above Chow's name and to the right (facing the chart) it has the name of James Mitose leading to Chow and over to the left, it has Father of William K.S. Chow with a line leading to Professor Chow. First of all, where's Gm. S. George Pesare who Professor Cerio received the bulk of his training from and made his first black belt in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu of which Cerio's Kenpo is based? Secondly, we're back to another myth, Chow studied Kung Fu, I believe the claim is Hung Gar from his father who was a Buddhist priest! You know what recent research has shown about that! My point is, this did not cause us to tear down the lineage chart and question everything Cerio had taught us while we were with him. So what? These inaccuracies and myths are expected and our generation is expected to clear them up! However, it's certainly not taking anything away from our knowledge and abilities and what we have done with the art. 21st decendant? I don't know about that if this proves true. That one the Kosho guys may have to eat along with the training at Shaka In Temple in Japan. Some are asking for John Bishop to call Hanshi Juchnik? Why? John has no vested interest in this either, outside his opinion on the matter taken by legitimate interviews he conducted. If I had such a vested interest and I was Hanshi Juchnik and had evidence to support Mitose's claims then rest assure, I would be on the 'horn' with Professor Abregana, on the computer or at my fax machine making sure everything I got goes into the A&E investigation, as a matter of fact, if I was head of the system, I'd fly out if I had to in an effort to preserve it's integrity! This is in no disrespect to Bruce Juchnik, despite some of the negative comments on this forum from some, I've also heard many, many good things about him too. I'm just saying, if there is hard evidence out there, why in the world are the powers to be of Kosho ryu not presenting it! If no one comes forward from the Kosho camp then please don't curse Professor Abregana if you are not satisfied with the investigation when it airs in 2005. It's not too late, get it going! Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras


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## kelly keltner

"me are asking for John Bishop to call Hanshi Juchnik? Why? John has no vested interest in this either, outside his opinion on the matter taken by legitimate interviews he conducted." prof Shuras

Dear professor
John Bishop made a statement about documentation That others claim to have. he has been given an oppurtunity to see that info ,yet he chooses not to. Why? because it's info that contradicts his legitimate interview? Come on. As I have shown earlier he has posts on this forum that seemingly contradict themselves. It is ok to make a statement and the retract it or even offer an alternative theory when evidence to the contrary is given. In previous posts in a different thread John Bishop has corrected me and I have apollagized for my inacuracies. Yet I don't see him making any concessions when discrepancies arise regarding one of his interviews. I'm not saying he lied. I'm not saying professor Young lied. I'm saying there is a discrepancy in the interview that he did with professor Young, and with what professor Youngs certificate states. I asked in a previous post if John had recorded the interview? If he has done this then that would go along way to clearing this matter up. I have yet to recieve an answer to this question. So it would seem to me Mr. Bishop has a vested interest in seeing this question cleared up.

And yes I do think there should be some corespondence between Professor Abregana and Bruce Juchnik and Mike brown for that matter. I am working on that. I don't give a rip who calls who as long as some kind of dialog is started. Why would professor Abregana not call hanshi Juchnik? Why would hanshi Juchnik not call professor Abregana? I question any hesitancy on both parties part. 

kelly


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## Karazenpo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> "me are asking for John Bishop to call Hanshi Juchnik? Why? John has no vested interest in this either, outside his opinion on the matter taken by legitimate interviews he conducted." prof Shuras
> 
> Dear professor
> John Bishop made a statement about documentation That others claim to have. he has been given an oppurtunity to see that info ,yet he chooses not to. Why? because it's info that contradicts his legitimate interview? Come on. As I have shown earlier he has posts on this forum that seemingly contradict themselves. It is ok to make a statement and the retract it or even offer an alternative theory when evidence to the contrary is given. In previous posts in a different thread John Bishop has corrected me and I have apollagized for my inacuracies. Yet I don't see him making any concessions when discrepancies arise regarding one of his interviews. I'm not saying he lied. I'm not saying professor Young lied. I'm saying there is a discrepancy in the interview that he did with professor Young, and with what professor Youngs certificate states. I asked in a previous post if John had recorded the interview? If he has done this then that would go along way to clearing this matter up. I have yet to recieve an answer to this question. So it would seem to me Mr. Bishop has a vested interest in seeing this question cleared up.
> 
> And yes I do think there should be some corespondence between Professor Abregana and Bruce Juchnik and Mike brown for that matter. I am working on that. I don't give a rip who calls who as long as some kind of dialog is started. Why would professor Abregana not call hanshi Juchnik? Why would hanshi Juchnik not call professor Abregana? I question any hesitancy on both parties part.
> 
> kelly



True Kelly, but that's all John has to lose. He has nothing financially at stake nor is he failing to protect the integrity of his system, in Hanshi's case, the Kosho Shorei Kai! This is what I mean when I use the word 'vested'. This A&E investigation is very, very important to the future of the Kosho ryu group and therefore it is incumbent upon Hanshi Juchnik to make contact. Professor Abregana already knows of the Okinawan connection to Nabura Tanamaha and Mitose but did Mitose inform Juchnik of this during those prison visits? And if not, why? I have never heard about Tanamaha and Mitose before, why?


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## John Bishop

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> John
> 
> First and foremost make the phone call and quit dancing around the issue.
> second the word kempo has been spelled with both an m and an n in various places and times in history. I quoted Bruce A. Haines book which was published in 1968 in a previous post. If you look in the footnotes section in the back much of the information he used came from interviews he did with Mitose around 1958-60. In that book Kosho Ryu Kempo is spelled with an M.
> Thirdly I never called anyone, especially Thomas Young a liar. My personal opinion is that it problably didn't matter much to Mitose how Kempo was spelled. It problably didn't matter to Young either. Did you audio or video tape the interview you did with him? Bottom line is the certificate says what it says, and the fact remains that Thomas Young had an close eleven year relationship with Bruce Juchnik. Yes Paul Yamaguichi is a friend of mine, no I have not seen his certificate.
> Bottom line is make the call man. If you need the number email me.
> 
> kelly


 
Wow, I go out of town for a couple of days, and look what happens.
Kelly, I don't know you, or have any clue as to your standing in the Kosho Ryu organization.  I'm sure you consider yourself a devoted student of Bruce Juchnik.  But if Mr. Juchnik wants to talk to me, he can contact me himself.  Funny, over the last 15 years, I have been told by several people like you that "Bruce Juchnik wants to talk to you".  Seems like everytime one of my articles came out, or something came up on a website or talk forum, I get the calls or emails about how Mr. Juchnik wants to talk to me.  
Well if Mr. Juchnik wants to talk to me so bad he can email me and I'll give him my phone number.  (No, I won't post my personal phone number on the internet).  It seems odd that he has never attempted to talk to me at the many Northern California events we've attended.  We've even been within arms reach of each other several times at these events.  I'm not hard to find.  I've had people from all over the country call me at work, or contact me thru the magazine editors.  
I have made my statements in public, and Mr. Juchnik also has the ability to post here, and correct anything he feels is incorrect information about him, Kosho Ryu history, or his organization.  And, don't use the excuse that he's above these discussions, or he's too busy.  We all have busy lives.

I have already said that I have talked to a living Thomas Young, so why would I want to see a supposed document that contridicts the information he gave me?  He's dead, so I can't confirm with him that the document is real or not.  And no, I was old fashion in the 80's and didn't use computers, video tapes, and tape recorders for all my research and writing.  I do have notebooks with dates, times, and notes from every interview I ever did for the 66 magazine articles I wrote, and the books I contributed to.  So, I guess it's just a matter of you saying my notes are wrong, so you don't have to believe me.  
If this document is so important to support Mr. Juchnik's changing the Ke"N"po spelling he once used, to the "Ke"M"po spelling he now uses; then he should post it on his website along side the certificate Mitose gave him, which by the way uses the "Ke"N"po spelling.

About Bruce Haines book "Karate's History and Traditions".  I do have the book, and the document it was developed from.  All the research and interviews are in the masters thesis that Bruce Haines did in 1962 for the University of Hawaii.  It's called "Karate and it's development in Hawaii to 1959".  And yes he in every instance refer's to Mitose's art as "Kosho Ryu Ke"N"po".  And you don't have to believe me, a copy of the thesis can be purchased from the University of Hawaii.    

About the A&E documentary "THE GATEWAY - Martial Arts in Hawaii." I am not a paid researcher.  I have been exchanging new and old research with Prof. Jaime Abregana on the Hawaiian Kenpo arts, and Hawaiian Lua (two parts of the 5 part documentary).  I have also been asked to help with some scriptwriting, interviews, and research projects.  This is a very exciting project for Kenpo people because a lot of questions may finally be answered.


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## Karazenpo

Dr. Dave wrote:

Prof Shuras:

You know I'm with you on most stuff most of the time. But I fail to see how one is unable to look forward without looking back. I don't drive the countryside with my gaze fixed in the rear-view mirror. I tell my history buff students that the kenpo history is a mess, made worse by politics and paper trails, but that they should be grateful to the forefathers for their ingenuity because it has, at each level and regardless of the causes, created a fine family of systems to study.

The butterfly does not emerge from its coccoon concerned about life as a caterpillar; it concerns itself with the business of being a butterfly, and proceeds with life from that point, forward. Snakes to do not ponder the fates of their shed skins. Phoenix's arise from the ashes to fly off, not pick through the ashes looking for the bones of their former selves.

I say: Yes, Dave, we are usually on the same page but let me give a little more indepth rationale behind my thoughts. There is also a saying: Dwell on the past, you rob the present but IGNORE the past you rob the FUTURE. Yes, the past of our arts is a 'tangled web' but as a history major, I can tell you this backed by fact, all history is a tangled web but that doesn't mean we should cut out U.S. and World history form our educational curriculum, does it? Let's just take some fairly current history-John Kerry's version of his tour of duty in Vietnam. Now, that goes back only to the late 60's and many witnesses and fellow military personel of that time period have come forward and given two different versions of the same event. The book 'Unfit to Serve' is in dire conflict to Kerry's version. I'm in no way passing judgement either way but just giving an example of history in general. Another example, the Pasadena incident with Mitose. This weekend I had the pleasure of speaking to a kempo brother again whom I met a couple of years back. He is of EPAK and is also a respected and very knowledgable historian. He spoke of the Pasadena situation involving Mr. Mitose and Mr. Parker. He stated in conducting interviews of some who were there he got conflicting reports as to Mitose's performance. One witness whom he named was impressed by Mitose, another whom is also named, wasn't. Remember, this historian is of EPAK so there is no bias toward Kosho ryu. He has contributed to this board and if he wishes to comment on this, fine. My point being is, again, this situation happened in the mid 60's and we still get two perspectives of the same event. That's the way it is and always will be when it comes to historical events. Martial artists of this era , the 21st century, are more educated and more inquisitive than ever before and perhaps it is up to this new generation to at least attempt to untangle this web the best we can. No, like any other history, we will never have all the answers but we surely can do much better than the myths that have been perpetuated all these years. Understanding some of the negative aspects of our history, once uncovered, will also help the public and the martial arts community in general from being 'taken' by any up and coming charletons of the future which reflects my opening daoist saying: 'Dwell on the past, you rob the present but ignore the past, you rob the future'. So, we shouldn't obsess over the history but we should have a decent understanding of our roots. Again, always a pleasure, Dr. Dave.


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## kelly keltner

Ok here we go. How many times have I offered to make the connection between you and Bruce Juchnik how many times have I been told no. As far as the M/n spelling thing it is silly you know it and I know it. All I have ever said is that it is spelled both ways. In Bruce Haines book that was published in 1968 and republished in the mid-nineties kempo is spelled with an M. If the document that Bruce Haines book was developed from the n spelling was used then why the change? Does it really matter?

 Bruce Juchnik could spell it Kosho Ryu Kempo or Kosho Ryu Kenpo It wouldn't matter. Would you like it spelled Kosho Ryu Kenpo in all future written works? I can ask if he would do that to make you happy.
 As far as the magazine article goes there is still a discrepancy there. If you didn't wish to speak to Mr. Juchnik I suppose you could check with Thomas Young's family and ask to see the certificate.

So you can't confirm your article except your own personal notes, and you won't confirm the certificate? Interesting paradox wouldn't you say. 

If Mitose's art came from Okinawa or Japan it doesn't matter. If Mitose made the whole thing up it doesn't matter. Great masters have talked to mists in their backyards and used that as justification to created their own arts, people have dreamed they were taught by their dead grandfathers and created their own arts. These arts are considered legitimate by todays standards. One of them was used as a standard part of the LAPD'S training curiculum for years. The LAPD set the standard for officer training in most of the U.S.A. They invented S.W.A.T. for goodnes sake. What were they thinking implementing an art like AKIDO when Ueshiba was a guy talking to fog in his back yard. Kajukenbo came out of the Palama settlements in Hawaii. Yeah I suppose all the students that came out of those classes were candidates for catholic sainthood.  

 If you have been at events in the past  where you knew Bruce Juchnik was there, Why didn't you walk up to him and say"Hi I'm John Bishop I heard you wished to speak with me." So I would say the question goes both ways. Why doesn't Mr. Juchnik talk to John Bishop? Why doesn't Mr. Bishop talk to Mr. Juchnik?
When given an oppurtunity to rectify this situation you don't take it. Why doesn't Mr. Juchnik take it? I don't know, all I can do is offer to help make it happen.

kelly


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## KENPOJOE

Hi Folks!
I read this thread today and decided to add my 2 cents to the entire issue...
1."what is the difference between KeMpo and KeNpo?" 
If you refering to the word itself and it's meaning, then the word itself comes from the mandarin chinese term "Chuan Fa" or the "Law of the fist" not way [tao or do] or method as some people erroneously refer to it. In cantonese is is refered to as "Ken Fat". When the art was brought to the ryukyu islands [Okinawa] the native tongue of Hogun was used to translate the chinese charaters [sp] and then translated the individual kanji into Ken-Po = Kenpo. This form of the term is used in several english translations of okinawan texts and was even used by the All Okinawa Kenpo Karate League comprised of Fusei Kise, Shikichi Odo and others...I have seen this certificate with the logo that would later be adopted by the Chito ryu system and the english clearly states Kenpo. When the Japanese pronounce this term, using the later Japanse systax, they pronounce it KeMpo [BTW, in Japan, Kempo is a generic reference to chinese martial arts]. The difference is similar to the spanish/puerto rican pronunciation of certain words and phrases "yo me llamo" in spanish as opposed to "Jo me Jamo" in the puerto rican dialect. 

I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> One other thing; In the book Karate's History and Traditions written by Bruce A. Haines. Which was first published in 1968. Kosho Ryu Kempo Is spelled with an M. It goes on to explain Mitose's art. There is a revised edition currently available through Tuttle Publications.
> 
> kelly



Hi Folks,
Regarding Bruce Haines book,
It's sad that in neither version they took the time to correct Ed Parker's name as being Edmund, and not edward as is listed in both versions of the book. BTW, I made a point of called Mark Wiley,who was associated with Tuttle at the time, and mentioned it to him and another Tuttle rep about the misspelling, was anything done about it? no.
The same may hold true for the spelling of Kenpo/kempo.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## John Bishop

Every thing discussed on this topic by me and many others has been done out in the open here, on the Kajukenbo Cafe, at the Kenponet, and other forums.  

*I invite Mr. Juchnik to come to this forum and discuss the topic first hand.*  Not to send students here to speak for him.  I know he sells a video tape called "the contraversy" or something like that.  But all martial arts knowledge shouldn't be for sale.  He has the opportunity to speak for himself here and put matters to rest if he feels the information being discussed here is incorrect.  Simple as that. 
Me calling Mr. Juchnik would prove absolutely nothing to the members here.  And I find it odd that he would not want to answer these questions out in the open where they were asked, instead of behind the scenes.  Kosho Ryu is not a secret society where you have to be a dues paying member to learn it's history. 
There are presently 3 Kosho Ryu topic threads active right now that are being read by thousands of Kenpo people.  *Where is Mr. Juchnik to speak up for system, and himself?  If there is misinformation being put out here, then he should come on and correct it.   *

*No more messengers, let's here from Mr. Juchnik himself. *


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## KENPOJOE

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> ... I have complete faith that Professor Jaime Abregana is conducting an unbiased, intensive and factual investigation in an honest attempt to seperate fact from fiction and present an historically accurate history of the birth of the martial arts in Hawaii. ... His lineage is through Marino Tiwanik's C.H.A. 3 Kenpo which was a forerunner of Kajukenbo. I'll say something else about the Okinawan connection we have discussed on this forum. Professor Eugene Sedeno stated that Professor Chow taught forms in those early years. He recalls that the forms were Okinawan. Now, couple that with others who stated Mitose practiced Naihanchi Shodan. Sijo Emperado stated he recalls the elders of the time saying the kenpo was Okinawan in origin but never heard any facts to back up that belief. Again, as a history major I can tell you, all history, world & U.S., has controversies and inaccuracies but hopefully all the major questions of Mitose's background will finally be answered.



Hi Folks!
Dear Joe Shuras,
Just wanted to make a couple of points clear here...
CHA# is not a forerunner of Kajukenbo, Rather, Marino Tiwanak was Adriano's first Black Belt in kenpo/kajukenbo before he created CHA3 [named after the location where Tiwanak taught Central or chinese housing area or association -building 3].
In regards to Mitose/Chow forms, Mitose indeed taught the Nihanchi form, whther he had learned it from Mutsu's text that he took the pictures from to use in "What is self defense" or had learned it from other sources is unsure, however Chow did know the form and it would be the foundation for the "lines" of techniques and basics that he would teach later [Such as Hansuki] that would later become forms. Brian Adams, author of "The Medical Implication of Karate Blows" which would later be renamed "Deadly karate Blows" with the pics changed [a real travesty to do that, i think!], told me when I interviewed him in California that He had film footage of chow doing a form as he had filmed it himself! William Marciarelli, who trained along with Prof. Nick Cerio under Prof Chow, also confirmed that Chow did do forms as well as techniques. But remember, Kenpo/kempo has always been a technique based system first and foremost!
I hope that i was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE

Hi Folks!
Been reading this thread because of a phone call I had with Joe Shuras yesterday and there is one aspect of this thread that kind of bothers me...

Kelly: John Bishop is under no obligation to contact Hanshi Juchnick if he does not desire to do so. You made the offer to help him and if he doesn't do it, that's his perogative. But when you try to make a poll out of it to see if you get support that borders on sheer stupidity. Either the guy does it or he doesn't and you shouldn't try to force him to do so.
John:Bruce Juchnick doesn't have to answer to you or anyone else on this board or any other board on the net. He's probably too busy working on his organization to be wasting his time reading this stuff anyway. IMHO, if you did indeed call him you'd probably find a really likeable person who you would have a wonderful conversation with on the martial arts. I remember the first time he ever came to new england and he pointed at me during the seminar and said "I'm so glad you are here!" because i wasn't afraid to ask questions and I knew what to ask him and he sincierely appreciated my asking them.

In closing, it never ceases to amaze me how people carry their testicles or ovaries in a cyber wheelbarrel when they are on the net and they think that other famous martial artists have nothing better to do than go online and answer their posts. Sorry folks, but most times they are busy teaching,doing seminars,creating videos/DVDs and in general, promoting the martial arts and many of them consider posting to the boards a waste of time and effort. Sorry to be the harbinger of bad news but it is the truth.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
PS: Dear Kelly,I have a copy of thomas young's certificate from mitose and when i find it,i'll scan it and paste it here to clarify this whole point regarding this particular matter.
 BEGOOD!


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## John Bishop

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Folks!
> In closing, it never ceases to amaze me how people carry their testicles or ovaries in a cyber wheelbarrel when they are on the net and they think that other famous martial artists have nothing better to do than go online and answer their posts. Sorry folks, but most times they are busy teaching,doing seminars,creating videos/DVDs and in general, promoting the martial arts and many of them consider posting to the boards a waste of time and effort. Sorry to be the harbinger of bad news but it is the truth.
> I hope that I was of some service,
> KENPOJOE
> BEGOOD!


Kenpo Joe:
I sure hope your speaking in generalities about the people who hide behind "cyber monikers" so they can talk trash.  I have a whole lot more respect for someone that uses their "real" name and are up front about who they are, and where they're from.  (But if you really are referring to me, you can check my profile, I'm pretty easy to find.  So next time we're in the same neighborhood, feel free to explain to me why you think I'm carrying my testicles in a cyber wheel barrel.)  

And no, Mr. Juchnik does not have to come on the forum and answer any questions.  *But please, enough with the "he's too famous" to waste his time talking with us mere students of the arts.  Ego is one of the most distasteful aspects of the arts. And I'm sure many share my opinion that it is very damaging to the arts. * Buy the way, GM Sam Kuoha wasn't too famous, or too busy to speak up when questions were raised about him and Prof. Chow.
Let's face it, the internet is the best way to address a large audience instantly, all over the world.


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## KENPOJOE

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Kenpo Joe:
> I sure hope your speaking in generalities about the people who hide behind "cyber monikers" so they can talk trash.  I have a whole lot more respect for someone that uses their "real" name and are up front about who they are, and where they're from.  (But if you really are referring to me, you can check my profile, I'm pretty easy to find.  So next time we're in the same neighborhood, feel free to explain to me why you think I'm carrying my testicles in a cyber wheel barrel.)
> 
> And no, Mr. Juchnik does not have to come on the forum and answer any questions.  *But please, enough with the "he's too famous" to waste his time talking with us mere students of the arts.  Ego is one of the most distasteful aspects of the arts. And I'm sure many share my opinion that it is very damaging to the arts. * Buy the way, GM Sam Kuoha wasn't too famous, or too busy to speak up when questions were raised about him and Prof. Chow.
> Let's face it, the internet is the best way to address a large audience instantly, all over the world.


Hi John,
I was not just refering to individuals who hide behind the "cyber fascade" of fake names and rerouted accounts [ALTHOUGH THEY ARE THE MAIN CULPRITS], I also refer the the people who think that they are so "famous" themselves that they feel they can call out other people in the martial arts and expect them to come running to respond to them on the net or are complete unknowns who feel the internet gives them the power to call upon these people and have them appear at their beckon call. many martial artists of note that I know are completely disillusioned with the net and specifically martial arts message boards. They feel they cannot adequetely get their message accross and end up being the target for trolls and the subject of flame wars and in the end, they simply find it a waste of time and effort and would much rather spend their time teaching the arts they love to do. As far as the "genitalia in a cyber wheelbarrel" line, we have all been guilty of it at some point in our cyber careers. BTW, we have chatted on the phone before because I called you awhile ago,remember?
Many higher ranked instructors consider it a "no win" situation in regards to addressing boards such as this, and IF the person knows how to use a computer and IF they can get online and IF they can find this website abd IF they choose to sign up to join and IF they take the time to read an entire thread and IF they decide to take the time to type up a response and IF they know how to send it then MAYBE it will happen! John, that's a lot of IFs!
Admittedly,Ego is a distinct problem in the martial arts and especially on the net, [hence the wheelbarrel analogy] Distance breeds animosity and therefore a flase sense of security and bravado in many ways,but by the same token, it can be one of the impetuses that drive us to be better and succeed because of our value and "self worth" 
In regards to GM Kuoha, I applaud his ability and willingness to answer questions regarding his art and his relationship with Prof. Chow. I was privilaged to have interviewed him for my TV show at Bruce Titcomb's school in Reading,MA years ago and he, his daughter Kaimi, his wife and the other high ranking black belts in attendence was gracious and personable to me and my film crew. By the same token, Sam Kuoha writes this board because he wants to, not because of some cyber quasi "challenge" hurled at him or anyone else, rather, most martial artists are familiar with the Magazines or TV programs in the mainstream media and when martialtalk.com get a mention it's a big deal! 
I agree that the internet is indeed a great way for many people to find out about different arts,but that does not nessecitate individuals taking time from their schedules to respond to these inquiries, rather, simply send an email to hanshi juchnick's email or call him [use a cel phone after 7 or 9pm and call for free!] 
In closing, I am intimately familar with your work and have all your martial arts articles that were published and have enjoyed your work. Keep writing and educate the martial arts as well as the general public.
I hope that I was of some service [sorry if this got off topic]
KENPOJOE


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## John Bishop

Joe:

I agree with you on many points you made.  What I wanted to get across is the point that these forums are "the new media".  And yes, we know of forums that are just trash talk by a bunch of mindless cowards, hiding behind the anonimity of a computer and a made up nickname.  And I think we agree that it is a total abuse of this worldwide communicative tool.  
The adminstrators and moderators here at Martial Talk are enforcing policies that make the forum friendly to users, and a very valuable educational tool.  
Like I said, the internet allows for instant worldwide communication to the masses.  And like the written media, it is only as good as the editorial guidelines it pratices.  But it can accomplish a lot more than the printed media because it is a source of information and communication, that can be added to, corrected, and updated immediately. 
When Mr. Juchnik produced the video "The Contraversy", I'm sure he did it so that he could address the issue in front of a much larger audience then he could thru phone calls and seminars.  He proposes to be the head of a system that gave birth to millions of Kenpo practitioners around the world.  Why would he not want to send his message to a much larger audiance, or at least correct mis-information?  
Unlike some of the other trash talk forums, many people come here to be educated.  If I call Mr. Juchnik, and Joe Shurus calls Mr. Juchnik, and you call Mr. Juchnik, well that's 3 people he's educated.  How about hundreds or thousands of Kenpo people who have been following these threads in search of knowledge?


----------



## Mekugi

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Folks!
> When the art was brought to the ryukyu islands [Okinawa] the native tongue of Hogun was used to translate the chinese charaters [sp] and then translated the individual kanji into Ken-Po = Kenpo.


HEY Joe!

Good to seeya!

Minor / semi-irrelevant lexiconographic points I thought I would share:

Hogen simply means "dialect" gleaned from my recent schooling, so it means nothing specific. In effect, the common name for the dialect should go as "Okinawaben". Further precision and snootiness on the subject will involve what is called "Shuri" ben , a standard for the islands based on the soft tones found in Kyoto at that time, for some reason. Which of course has sub-dialects, to further confuse the masses. Oh imagine that! 

Anyway, Ken and Hou were the two sounds combined to form Kempo phonetically. The H in Hou is turned to P, after the "n" sound, which becomes M in this case because of a "glottal stop". Ugly business really, those glottal stops. 

I would simply LOVE to post a picture of the Kanji here, maybe one of hte powers-that-be could arrange that? I have the tools for a JPEG!





			
				KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> (snip)[BTW, in Japan, Kempo is a generic reference to chinese martial arts]
> I hope that I was of some service,
> KENPOJOE


This is not necessarily true. Kempo is borrowed term and that is 100% fact. However, it should be recognized that there are also _many_ other words and terms that are borrowed from China by Japan. This is due to the fact that Japan simply adopted the Chinese hieroglyphs for the written language. In effect, you have words for things that have no physical connection to China other than the characters were borrowed and the term gleaned into the spoken language. It could be argued that the Kempos connotation, as part of the budo vocabulary, has been borrowed numerous times without any influence from China. This, erroneosly, this is viewed as a direct connection to China. Supporting this notion, I know of two koryu bujutsu that use this term without any connection to any Chinese influence; as much as Japan can be, that is.


----------



## kelly keltner

Just a couple of questions. 

Who stated that Bruce Juchnik was too famous to talk to anyone. I don't think that verbage came from my chubby little fingertips?

Next Bruce Juchnik didn't send me to this forum. Who's claiming that he is?

Then Who stated in post #6 of this thread? I would like to someday see a copy of this certificate,
and then went on to state in post #61 "why would I want to see a supposed document that contradicts the info he gave me?" (refering to the same document in post #6)

Finally a statement was made regarding Bruce Juchnik having a lot to lose in regards to this investigation. That is nonsense, this invsetigation is problably the best thing that has happend to kenpo  I spelled it with an N just for you John, and for Kosho Ryu  specificly. Do you think that Kosho Ryu just goes away, or that people will stop studying it just because Mitose may or may not have made it all up. In fact if it is proven that Mitose made it up then most of the credit of Kosho Ryu's growth goes to one man. Even if Kosho Ryu is a Mitose invention I will continue to study it. 

Kenpojoe you are right I was a little out of line when I posted that poll, and I was bordering on stupidity. I do believe my points been made though. I would appreciate you posting your copy of that certificate.

kelly

P.S.
This is my real name I don't use false monikers I am an easy guy to get a hold of if anyone (yes this includes you john) wants to.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

if anyone would like any kanji, just PM me and let  me know.....i can brush the characters, scan them, and email them to you....along with some instructions on how to brush them if you want

shawn


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## Tripitaka of AA

&#25331;&#27861;
Ken + Hou

Pronounced "Kempo" (with a long "o")


----------



## Karazenpo

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Folks!
> Dear Joe Shuras,
> Just wanted to make a couple of points clear here...
> CHA# is not a forerunner of Kajukenbo, Rather, Marino Tiwanak was Adriano's first Black Belt in kenpo/kajukenbo before he created CHA3 [named after the location where Tiwanak taught Central or chinese housing area or association -building 3].
> In regards to Mitose/Chow forms, Mitose indeed taught the Nihanchi form, whther he had learned it from Mutsu's text that he took the pictures from to use in "What is self defense" or had learned it from other sources is unsure, however Chow did know the form and it would be the foundation for the "lines" of techniques and basics that he would teach later [Such as Hansuki] that would later become forms. Brian Adams, author of "The Medical Implication of Karate Blows" which would later be renamed "Deadly karate Blows" with the pics changed [a real travesty to do that, i think!], told me when I interviewed him in California that He had film footage of chow doing a form as he had filmed it himself! William Marciarelli, who trained along with Prof. Nick Cerio under Prof Chow, also confirmed that Chow did do forms as well as techniques. But remember, Kenpo/kempo has always been a technique based system first and foremost!
> I hope that i was of some service,
> KENPOJOE



Hello KenpoJoe, Yeah, maybe I didn't make myself clear or should have chosen a different word than 'forerunner' when I mentioned C.H.A #3 and Kajukenbo. What I meant was Marino Tiwanik (founder of C.H.A#3 Kenpo) is indeed Sijo Emperado's first black belt but many times he is erroneously listed as the first black belt in Kajukenbo. I received the following information directly from C.H.A. #3 people that Tiwanik's art was based on the early Kenpo that Emperado learned from Chow and Mitose and is actually referred to as Mitose's Kenpo because during that point in time that is what Chow essentially taught. Actual historical accounts show that the Kajukenbo concept is a later interpretation of which the original method was also based on Mitose's Kenpo. Again, Tiwanik is often confused as being Kajukenbo's first black belt because he was Emperado's first black belt and I was trying to make reference to the fact that his system was based on the 'forerunner' to Kajukenbo, if that makes sense, lol. I recently discussed this with Professor Abregana who's roots are C.H.A. #3 Kenpo. Joe, I'm looking forward to our meeting. I'm sending out e-mails today. I'll be in touch soon for a date that is suitable to all. Take care, Professor Joe


----------



## Karazenpo

Kelly stated: "Finally a statement was made regarding Bruce Juchnik having a lot to lose in regards to this investigation". 

Kelly, I don't know if you are referring to one of my posts but I don't believe I stated he had a lot to lose but I must admit the implication is there and I stand by that. I have had indepth conversations from one of Hanshi's student's whom I've known for several years now and not through just the 'net'. I also did a seminar for him. He is Sensei John Evans of New Hampshire and I have much respect for the man although we don't always agree on things but what's wrong with that!, lol. Sensei John is the one who put me in touch with the well respected Shihan Mike Brown, historian of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai of Hanshi Juchnik's organization. Also bear in mind I stated I have heard many, many good things of Juchnik from these people and I believe them so there is no bias on my part. However, learning what I have from them I'm just saying that if the Tanamaha connection for all intensive purposes appears to be factual and it seems to be and if and I say IF the Shaka In Temple and Mitose's Japanese training and his 21st decendant of Kosho thing proves false than Hanshi Juchnik and the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai will have to correct and rewrite the history of their system, of which they have professed for quite sometime now was factual. Yes, I think that is, in a sense, a lot to lose. Will Hanshi Juchnik still refer to himself as the 22nd decendant if it is proved there was no 21st? Believe me, I've had many rock'm sock'm arguments with John Evans over this history as he has had with others as you have had. The Kosho people have stood by this history 100 per cent. Will they finally admit, if proven true, that Mitose LIED about his art? Wouldn't you agree and I don't mean this to be derrogatory, so please don't take it that way, but don't you feel they'll be some embarrassment here. I would be a little embarrassed and I would also be a little upset that I was led down a false path. I agree with you, it doesn't take away Mitose's contribution to the martial arts in Hawaii in any way, shape or form.  I agree, it will make no difference in the effectiveness of your art and he will still be the founder of this Hawaiian-derived Kenpo. I will always give him the credit of 'planting the seed that was nurtured and cultivated into the many fine systems we have today' BUT some serious corrections will have to be made regarding his lineage. Is this not an accurate, fair and unbiased assessment? Respectfully Professor Joe Shuras


----------



## Karazenpo

I took this from the Japanese arts section of this forum. It was posted by pknox. DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR? WHERE DID I HEAR THIS BEFORE! LOL.


The art was founded by Doshin Sho, and is supposed to be at the very least derived from the Shaolin temple arts. I guess it really depends on if you're talking about lineage or techniques. 

So was born in Japan in 1911, and after traveling to China at age 17, lived there for some time. While in China (Beijing) he studied with Wen Laoshi. So succeeded him as the 21st master of the Northern Shorinji Giwamonken school. At that point, So's system was well within the orthodox lineage of Shaolin. Once So took over, he added to the art moves he had learned from other systems, and renamed the system Shorinji Kempo.

After WWII, So changed the focus a bit, using Shorinji Kempo as a way to rebuild the character and morale of the recently defeated and therefore depressed Japanese. So later went on to found a Zen temple in Japan that had his martial art at the forefront of its teachings.

I guess the simple answer would be that Shorinji Kempo's founder has a direct lineage to Shaolin, and the foundation art upon which Shorinji Kempo takes many of its techniques is definitely Shaolin, the art that is currently taught as Shorinji Kempo has been modified a bit from the original Northern Shaolin temple teachings.

Note that I am not a practitioner of Shorinji Kempo, just someone who is somewhat interested in its history, so anyone who is a practitioner, please feel free to correct any mistakes I have made.


----------



## Karazenpo

Found this one too. The poster is Kimpatsu, he's of Shorinji Kempo and lives in Japan:


There's no real semantic difference; the glottal stop "n" can also be pronounced as the plosive "m" in the middle of Japanese words. What then happens is that certain words adopt the "m" as convention; "shimbun" ("newspaper") is one such example.
Shorinji Kempo uses the "m" by convention, so we all use it for conformity. Other forms of kenpo choose to use the "n".
But there's no real mystery about it.
HTH.


----------



## Mekugi

That's Tony Kehoe, a good friend and one of the best linguists/translators in Japan, hands down. He'll go blow for blow with anyone with knowledge and etymology of  Japanese -or- English (even a great deal of Chinese and trust me, I have been schooled by him many, many times- David TESTIFY!! ) He is fervent supporter of the "KeMpo" angle from my experience and against the use of "gi" - I just had to throw that in. Simply and obliviously this is because of his advanced and seemingly fluent use of the language. My wife, Japanese and a schoolteacher, heard him speak and was amazed by his skill, accent and education and was in disbelief that he was not born here.



			
				Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Found this one too. The poster is Kimpatsu, he's of Shorinji Kempo and lives in Japan:
> 
> 
> There's no real semantic difference; the glottal stop "n" can also be pronounced as the plosive "m" in the middle of Japanese words. What then happens is that certain words adopt the "m" as convention; "shimbun" ("newspaper") is one such example.
> Shorinji Kempo uses the "m" by convention, so we all use it for conformity. Other forms of kenpo choose to use the "n".
> But there's no real mystery about it.
> HTH.


----------



## kelly keltner

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Every thing discussed on this topic by me and many others has been done out in the open here, on the Kajukenbo Cafe, at the Kenponet, and other forums.
> 
> *I invite Mr. Juchnik to come to this forum and discuss the topic first hand.* Not to send students here to speak for him. I know he sells a video tape called "the contraversy" or something like that. But all martial arts knowledge shouldn't be for sale. He has the opportunity to speak for himself here and put matters to rest if he feels the information being discussed here is incorrect. Simple as that.
> Me calling Mr. Juchnik would prove absolutely nothing to the members here. And I find it odd that he would not want to answer these questions out in the open where they were asked, instead of behind the scenes. Kosho Ryu is not a secret society where you have to be a dues paying member to learn it's history.
> There are presently 3 Kosho Ryu topic threads active right now that are being read by thousands of Kenpo people. *Where is Mr. Juchnik to speak up for system, and himself? If there is misinformation being put out here, then he should come on and correct it. *
> 
> *No more messengers, let's here from Mr. Juchnik himself. *


 

All martial arts knowledge shouldn't be for sale, sir then I guess I should be given copies of all the articles you ever wrote. I shouldn't have to pay for those pesky magazines. Nor should I have to pay for Emparado's memoirs which he was supposedly writing in the West Virginia Mountains a decade ago. I shouldn't have had to pay for the copy of The Martial Arts Encyclopedia I have. I shouldn't have to pay for all the gas I bought going to and from martial arts classes and seminars and planes tickets to Hawaii, The east coast and Australia in the name of the arts, just to name a few. 
All Knowledge comes at some cost. The price of a tape is not a big deal.

kelly


----------



## Tripitaka of AA

That quote from Kimpatsu (Tony Kehoe) is brief and to the point. So much so that it may be overlooked by those who need more "words" to be convinced.

Tony is a keen Budoka and a professional translator. In this kind of discussion, his statements should be afforded the respect that a Consultant Surgeon would merit when giving a medical opinion. In contrast, most of us are keen amateurs, with the kind of knowledge level that is often described as "a dangerous thing".

The fact that he has an outrageous online persona that gets him banned from forums is a shocking waste of his worth to the community. He just won't lay down and shut up when he knows he's right. He also has a dim view of Christianity and it is usually his forthright rejection of "Belief" and "Faith" that seals his fate. His advocacy for Atheism often results in offence being taken by those who count themselves as Believers, and as any forum worth being a member of will attempt to clamp down on offensive behaviour... he ends up signing his own death warrant (won't back down...).

Strangely, it seems that everyone who goes to Japan ends up in a bar with Tony at some stage and as far as I can tell, they all reckon he's a decent chap.




SO anyway... Short answer is "M or N, doesn't mean anything to a Japanese".  Shorter answer "History doesn't always make sense".


----------



## kelly keltner

Professor in regards to your post. No I would not be embarrased. If there was a lie told it rests on Mitose's head. I was never led down a false path. Logicly speaking you must view anything being put forth by a person with a record like Mitose's with skepticism. If Mitose made the whole thing up, and it's proven. Then what happens? I get to shed the reputation of Mitose from the art? When askedI can honestly give my oppinion
 about who I think made that system grow and who I think deserves the credit for the development of the art in the last 20+ years Without the stigma of Mitose.
 I said on the phone and in posts that I was willing to concede if it was proven Mitose made it up. Would it be logical for me not to?
I know who did the work to make Kosho Ryu what it is, and I know the possibilities of where Kosho Ryu came from. 
If I  might diverge from the origional point for a second.
If you'll notice I never said John Bishop or yourself were wrong in any of my posts. Any issues that arose came from discrepancies I obseverved I have specificly pointed them out in previous posts.  For example whether or not Kempo was spelled with an N/M I don't think I stated It was specificly spelled either way. What I did do was to cite specific examples that contradicted John to show that historicly speaking it has been spelled both ways. Because historicly speaking it has been spelled both ways.
Back to task.
Here is where I might take some heat from the Kosho groups. Those who study Kosho need to be prepared to be wrong. They need to be man/women enough to deal with it and understand it does not take away from the art they do. I'm not saying we arewrong. What I'm saying is don't take a position and make it god. If Mitose made it up then so what. There have been literally millions of people who have been better off over the years from what is possibly his lie. Let's look at it how many systems have sprouted from his teachings.

Kelly


----------



## kelly keltner

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Every thing discussed on this topic by me and many others has been done out in the open here, on the Kajukenbo Cafe, at the Kenponet, and other forums.
> 
> *I invite Mr. Juchnik to come to this forum and discuss the topic first hand.* Not to send students here to speak for him. I know he sells a video tape called "the contraversy" or something like that. But all martial arts knowledge shouldn't be for sale. He has the opportunity to speak for himself here and put matters to rest if he feels the information being discussed here is incorrect. Simple as that.
> Me calling Mr. Juchnik would prove absolutely nothing to the members here. And I find it odd that he would not want to answer these questions out in the open where they were asked, instead of behind the scenes. Kosho Ryu is not a secret society where you have to be a dues paying member to learn it's history.
> There are presently 3 Kosho Ryu topic threads active right now that are being read by thousands of Kenpo people. *Where is Mr. Juchnik to speak up for system, and himself? If there is misinformation being put out here, then he should come on and correct it. *
> 
> *No more messengers, let's here from Mr. Juchnik himself. *


 
Whose a massenger? Who was sent here? I came her before hanshi Juchnik ever knew I was posting. Give me a break.
kell


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## BlackCatBonz

wow.........i want to read more tony kehoe posts.
and as far as mitose being a fraud......if thats the way it is, then so be it.....i will not lose my love for the arts. I think thomas mitose would be some ticked off though!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Whose a massenger? Who was sent here? I came her before hanshi Juchnik ever knew I was posting. Give me a break.
> kell


So young. So angry. Dam that rap music.


----------



## kelly keltner

I didn't know lizards could type. Or was it a different animal in that Dr. Dolittle movie. Either way no anger here. Just questions.

kelly


----------



## Mekugi

Tripitaka of AA said:
			
		

> Tony is a keen Budoka and a professional translator. In this kind of discussion, his statements should be afforded the respect that a Consultant Surgeon would merit when giving a medical opinion. In contrast, most of us are keen amateurs, with the kind of knowledge level that is often described as "a dangerous thing".
> 
> The fact that he has an outrageous online persona that gets him banned from forums is a shocking waste of his worth to the community. He just won't lay down and shut up when he knows he's right. He also has a dim view of Christianity and it is usually his forthright rejection of "Belief" and "Faith" that seals his fate. His advocacy for Atheism often results in offence being taken by those who count themselves as Believers, and as any forum worth being a member of will attempt to clamp down on offensive behaviour... he ends up signing his own death warrant (won't back down...).


Totally. Tony has never backed down from his beliefs, and that is because he has _character_. He has made people mad, said things that are controversial to the "public" and perhaps aren't PC, but that's freedom of speech and to me, his right. 

For instance, if Tony and another individual were sitting in a bar arguing over Christianity tooth and nail, heated words were exchanged and emotions stomped upon and suddenly there was a massive earthquake that opened up the floor and his opponent fell into the crevace hanging on by one finger, Tony would be the FIRST to risk his life to save them. Unless they said like, "IT'S A GI" or something  

Just my humble opinion.


----------



## Ceicei

Oh, you must be talking about Kempatsu (as I knew him from e-budo.com)?? What happened to him? He and I, almost a year ago, actually had a *very courteous* discussion on religious topics for a few days over there at e-budo. It was just two of us for a while on that thread with a large audience of lurkers. There were actually users who were betting how long it would take before there would be insults thrown. Even a few posted to me on the thread as well as privately saying they were amazed that we could converse so civilly for so long (Huh, people? Respect goes a long way, ya know? It's a two way street). There never were any insults between us even though we disagreed with each other and it lasted for several posts until some other people took offense at some of his comments and jumped in with some diatribes (read: mud-slinging). I then left because the others were downright rude to him and I didn't return back to e-budo. Oh well, for what it was worth, we had a nice thing going for a time.

The point of why I brought this up is I sincerely believe that it is *very much possible* to carry on an extensive and thought provoking conversation if the people debating remember to stick by one rule: *no personal shots* (these aren't necessary). That was the rule Kempatsu and I agreed and stuck to during these few days. I miss him because I find him quite intelligent and very capable of being courteous.

- Ceicei


----------



## kelly keltner

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Professor in regards to your post. No I would not be embarrased. If there was a lie told it rests on Mitose's head. I was never led down a false path. Logicly speaking you must view anything being put forth by a person with a record like Mitose's with skepticism. If Mitose made the whole thing up, and it's proven. Then what happens? I get to shed the reputation of Mitose from the art? When askedI can honestly give my oppinion
> about who I think made that system grow and who I think deserves the credit for the development of the art in the last 20+ years Without the stigma of Mitose.
> I said on the phone and in posts that I was willing to concede if it was proven Mitose made it up. Would it be logical for me not to?
> I know who did the work to make Kosho Ryu what it is, and I know the possibilities of where Kosho Ryu came from.
> If I might diverge from the origional point for a second.
> If you'll notice I never said John Bishop or yourself were wrong in any of my posts. Any issues that arose came from discrepancies I obseverved I have specificly pointed them out in previous posts. For example whether or not Kempo was spelled with an N/M I don't think I stated It was specificly spelled either way. What I did do was to cite specific examples that contradicted John to show that historicly speaking it has been spelled both ways. Because historicly speaking it has been spelled both ways.
> Back to task.
> Here is where I might take some heat from the Kosho groups. Those who study Kosho need to be prepared to be wrong. They need to be man/women enough to deal with it and understand it does not take away from the art they do. I'm not saying we arewrong. What I'm saying is don't take a position and make it god. If Mitose made it up then so what. There have been literally millions of people who have been better off over the years from what is possibly his lie. Let's look at it how many systems have sprouted from his teachings.
> 
> Kelly


One other thing while feeling spry here at 11:22 pm california time. I was lookong at Mitose's manuscriipt for What is True Self-Defense, and I noticed kempo was spelled with an M and an N in several places. Go figure?

kelly


----------



## John Bishop

Mr. Juchnik has been gracious enough to contact me via email.  I have sent him the following response:

*" Thank you very much for your kind offer of communication.  *
*Several Kenpo practitioners have been discussing Kosho Ryu topics and yourself at the talk forum:  **www.martialtalk.com** .  You will find some very strong opinions and beliefs in these discussions, but I feel that civil debate and discussion can be a very important contribution to the learning process.  I know that we could probably have some very fruitful discussions on various Kenpo topics, and we may sometime in the future.  But at this time I would like to invite you to participate in the discussions at Martial Talk.  There are many more people there than just me interested in Kenpo history, and you are someone who has much information to share.  I hope you will take this opportunity to share some of your knowledge with the Kenpo community. "*

I hope he accepts my invitation to participate in our discussions here.


----------



## Tripitaka of AA

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Oh, you must be talking about Kempatsu (as I knew him from e-budo.com)?? What happened to him? - Ceicei



He's still at large on E-Budo.com, but banned from just about everywhere else .  Moved back to Tokyo (from Osaka), and is starting up his own Translation business (having grown tired of working for others). He always uses the Username "*Kimpatsu*" and if anyone is curious, just do a search on any Forum and you'll usually find some fine examples of work. There are usually only three subjects though; Grammar, "dogi/gi", religion....


----------



## Karazenpo

Kelly stated: Here is where I might take some heat from the Kosho groups. Those who study Kosho need to be prepared to be wrong. They need to be man/women enough to deal with it and understand it does not take away from the art they do. I'm not saying we arewrong. What I'm saying is don't take a position and make it god. If Mitose made it up then so what. There have been literally millions of people who have been better off over the years from what is possibly his lie. Let's look at it how many systems have sprouted from his teachings.


 I say: That's good, Kelly. I totally respect your viewpoint and couldn't agree more.


----------



## Ceicei

Tripitaka of AA said:
			
		

> He's still at large on E-Budo.com, but banned from just about everywhere else . Moved back to Tokyo (from Osaka), and is starting up his own Translation business (having grown tired of working for others). He always uses the Username "*Kimpatsu*" and if anyone is curious, just do a search on any Forum and you'll usually find some fine examples of work. There are usually only three subjects though; Grammar, "dogi/gi", religion....


Thanks for the spelling correction--it had been a while. I did stop over at E-budo last night for a few minutes to check the member list but didn't stay to browse.

- Ceicei


----------



## GAB

Hello, 

It has been interesting to watch this unfold, centralizing on Hanshi Bruce Juchnik, which in some respects it is correct and some not. He is the keeper of the flame so to speak. Trying to teach what his teacher told him, to go find and to keep his teachings (Mitose) to others alive. 

If you will notice that Hanshi Bruce has gone to other Masters and asked their imput and then incorporated some of the Katas and Tech's they knew to be in the Art of Mitose's teachings, He even went to Terry Lee to see what the Master taught him in the last year of his exposure to the Master. 

I think the through way Hanshi Bruce went down the path to find the information,  put it together to compose the Art of the Late GGM Mitose, then present it to the best of his ability. He will survive it just fine, better then the others I would suppose.

The thought that runs through my mind is James Mitose and his son Thomas along with, Al Tracy who has a different story then either of the other mentioned persons. 

Since Sijo Emperado was to side with Thomas Mitose on the proper lineage to be handed the Disciple ship, the fact that Thomas Mitose is a person in Sijo's organization, I would suspect there is more out there then has been turned as of yet.
When I mentioned the topic was going to be aired on TV over at the San Jose Kenpo board it was not something they were familiar with, no one had contacted Al Tracy. I would figure that will occure about the time they are going to contact Hanshi Bruce. 

So if you are going to point the finger at anyone it will have to be into the corner of Thomas Mitose and Sijo Emperado, considering he knew James Mitose the longest. (along with others who are now being interviewed).

If Hanshi Bruce Juchnik is to be believed as he has stated in several books. 
He thought his teacher (Mitose) was telling him the truth, also what turned up in Japan helped him stay on that path. He wrote about it extensively, with all the work that was put into and trying to confirm the information. I think in his mind he did confirm it and therefore went forth and continued what he thought was the right path.

Al Tracy on his board tells a different story and at times tells the Kosho people they are on the wrong path. He has quite a bit of information and research that he tells on his web site.

It will be interesting to see how it unfolds in the next year. 

Regards, Gary


----------



## John Bishop

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> All martial arts knowledge shouldn't be for sale, sir then I guess I should be given copies of all the articles you ever wrote. I shouldn't have to pay for those pesky magazines. Nor should I have to pay for Emparado's memoirs which he was supposedly writing in the West Virginia Mountains a decade ago. I shouldn't have had to pay for the copy of The Martial Arts Encyclopedia I have. I shouldn't have to pay for all the gas I bought going to and from martial arts classes and seminars and planes tickets to Hawaii, The east coast and Australia in the name of the arts, just to name a few.
> All Knowledge comes at some cost. The price of a tape is not a big deal.
> 
> kelly


Not really.  I have never talked to anyone of note in the martial arts who would'nt freely discuss history and events.  People come on this and many other forums everyday and volunteer information.  And websites are full of free information. 
I personally have never refused anyone free information.  I'm open to discussions by phone, email, forum, and thru my website.  *As are most martial artists I've dealt with.*  And if you don't want to pay "those pesky magazine prices", you can read the information on my website, or just ask me for it.  It is free.  In fact I have to pay out of my pocket to put it on my website so I can give it away free. 
So no, not all knowledge is for sale.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

In response to hearing the phrase, "Give 'em hell, Harry" one day, Harry Truman responded, "I never gave them hell. I gave them the truth, and they thought it was hell."

Signed,

Pundit lurker.


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## BlackCatBonz

i agree john......with the martial arts we are given a gift, and as students and teachers, its our responsibility to keep that gift alive, even with all of the arguing, or stories, whether true or false....people come to us to learn, and for myself, i feel that it is a gift to be able to teach.

shawn


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## kelly keltner

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Not really.  I have never talked to anyone of note in the martial arts who would'nt freely discuss history and events.  People come on this and many other forums everyday and volunteer information.  And websites are full of free information.
> I personally have never refused anyone free information.  I'm open to discussions by phone, email, forum, and thru my website.  *As are most martial artists I've dealt with.*  And if you don't want to pay "those pesky magazine prices", you can read the information on my website, or just ask me for it.  It is free.  In fact I have to pay out of my pocket to put it on my website so I can give it away free.
> So no, not all knowledge is for sale.


 I did not say all knowledge was for sale. I said it came with a cost. The difference being a little tricky verbage. 
To gain one thing many times you must give up another. Many times the the cost is time coupled with money. The result being what you want, and what you want costs you that time and money. 
You are correct John all Knowledge is not for sale, but all knowledge comes at some cost. Sometimes that cost could be as cheap as a phone call.
kelly


----------



## Mekugi

Kelly,

Seriously, why would John want to call Bruce Juchnick again?  



			
				kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Sometimes that cost could be as cheap as a phone call.
> kelly


----------



## kelly keltner

I would refer you to posts in this thread numbered; 11,15,18,56,and 59.

Also for everyone including John. I have been working on getting hanshi Juchnik to respond to this forum. 

kelly


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## Mekugi

So why mention it in number 99?



			
				kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I would refer you to posts in this thread numbered; 11,15,18,56,and 59.
> 
> Also for everyone including John. I have been working on getting hanshi Juchnik to respond to this forum.
> 
> kelly


----------



## kelly keltner

Just feelin lucky today, and when I'm feelin lucky I just have to act on it. I'm workin on suppresing that little personality quirk of mine, but it's hard.

kelly


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

hmm...:deadhorse


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## kelly keltner

HMMM beating a dead horse. 

"My sitser had a horse that broke its leg. So I shot it.
Now it has a broken leg and a gunshot wound. I guess it's supposed to help with the healing process. If it's not better by next week I'm gonna shoot it again." Larry the cable guy Excerpt from the blue collar comedy tour.


kelly


----------



## kelly keltner

Besides in post #61 Mr. bishop said he would provide Hanshi Juchnik phone # if he (Juchnik) emailed him. As John has stated he recieved an email but hanshi has yet to recieve a phone number.

kelly

P.s. sorry couldn't resist this one.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Kane said:
			
		

> I've heard the art of kenpo and now a few weeks ago I find there is another MA called Kempo. Can someone please explain the differences? I am kinda confused on what is the difference between the two. Thanks!


i just wanted to beat this horse some more.....purely for sport.
this thread has gone a wee bit off course by the slightest of margins. Kane merely asked as to the differences between the two.....not an argument on who spelled what, what way, or the A&E expose on mitose. Could we not, as a group of adults studying this martial art that we love, simply reply......Hey Kane, some groups spell it "kenpo" and other groups spell it "kempo". and there are some stylistic differences some might say too numerous to mention here. 

btw.......is someone taking a trip to japan during this investigation to speak with the  scholarly authorities on the history of the buddhist temple where Kosho was to have originated, with the assistance of an unbiased translator?
or does the research begin and end in the USA?

shawn


----------



## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i just wanted to beat this horse some more.....purely for sport.
> this thread has gone a wee bit off course by the slightest of margins. Kane merely asked as to the differences between the two.....not an argument on who spelled what, what way, or the A&E expose on mitose. Could we not, as a group of adults studying this martial art that we love, simply reply......Hey Kane, some groups spell it "kenpo" and other groups spell it "kempo". and there are some stylistic differences some might say too numerous to mention here.
> 
> btw.......is someone taking a trip to japan during this investigation to speak with the  scholarly authorities on the history of the buddhist temple where Kosho was to have originated, with the assistance of an unbiased translator?
> or does the research begin and end in the USA?
> 
> shawn



But Shawn, if any of us answer your last paragraph we'll be getting off track again, LOL, just kidd'n, I see your point. To answer your last paragraph, this A&E Investigation is about martial arts in Hawaii, the Mitose link is just a small part of it, the kenpo part, other arts will be discussed. I don't think it was started to prove anything about Mitose one way or the other but was just tracing the origins of the arts in Hawaii, The Gateway. Shihan Mke Brown has taken several trips to Japan over the years. He would be the man to talk to.  Respectfully, Professor Joe


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## lonekimono10

ALL i can say is WOW, and hello kelly,


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## KenpoPastor

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i just wanted to beat this horse some more.....purely for sport.
> this thread has gone a wee bit off course by the slightest of margins. Kane merely asked as to the differences between the two.....not an argument on who spelled what, what way, or the A&E expose on mitose. Could we not, as a group of adults studying this martial art that we love, simply reply......Hey Kane, some groups spell it "kenpo" and other groups spell it "kempo". and there are some stylistic differences some might say too numerous to mention here.



I just read this whole darn thread waiting for someone to post this.  I just wanted to make sure someone made this point I was begining to feel a moral obligation to make this point if no one else did.

It took 8 pages and exactly 2 months to get here.  I just hope that Kane wasn't discouraged from Kenpo or Kempo because of our petty bickering.  This just goes to  show how blinding our assumptions can be.

_don


----------



## MisterMike

Was there a specific set of techniques passed on between Mitose, Chow and the resulting lineages? Or was kem/npo taught less systematically back then?

I know several of the resulting lineages under Chow, like Parker Kenpo have very set systems of techniques. It was also commented that the "Americanized" versions of Kem/npo are more advanced/practical to today's times. Is this due to that systematizing?

I've never seen Mitose's book or anything written by Chow. Were these attempts at cataloging Kem/npo? Was it an abstract art?

A lot of questions, I know 

Thanks,


----------



## kelly keltner

KenpoPastor said:
			
		

> I just read this whole darn thread waiting for someone to post this.  I just wanted to make sure someone made this point I was begining to feel a moral obligation to make this point if no one else did.
> 
> It took 8 pages and exactly 2 months to get here.  I just hope that Kane wasn't discouraged from Kenpo or Kempo because of our petty bickering.  This just goes to  show how blinding our assumptions can be.
> 
> _don


 I thought I kinda covered that in post #83. 
That was my point exactly.
kk


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## dianhsuhe

OK I'll bite....

Whatever happened to the A&E doc.?  Pretty crazy thread, But I still enjoy all the information-


I do admit I have a pet peave, I know most high ranking martial artits do not care about titles but can't we agree to refer to them at least by "Mr." if not their actual title (if known) I believe they have earned it!

Reading posts to "John" (Mr. John Bishop), "Bruce" (Mr. Bruce Juchnik) or especially "Chow" (Professor Chow) is just sad-  Would you refer to them that way in person?

Anyhow, great thread- have a great holiday wekend everybody!
James


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## BlackCatBonz

dianhsuhe said:
			
		

> OK I'll bite....
> 
> Whatever happened to the A&E doc.? Pretty crazy thread, But I still enjoy all the information-
> 
> 
> I do admit I have a pet peave, I know most high ranking martial artits do not care about titles but can't we agree to refer to them at least by "Mr." if not their actual title (if known) I believe they have earned it!
> 
> *Reading posts to "John" (Mr. John Bishop), "Bruce" (Mr. Bruce Juchnik)* or especially "Chow" (Professor Chow) is just sad- *Would you refer to them that way in person?*
> 
> Anyhow, great thread- have a great holiday wekend everybody!
> James


i think that the really great martial artists of our time arent so hung up on their titles that you cant refer to them by their first name outside the dojo.


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## The Kai

As a general rule are'nt they our elders? (except of course for John Bishop).  Don't you refer to your elder with respect??


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## Dreamer

I was hoping someone can help answer a couple of questions that I have. I recently saw the article about Grandmaster Sam Kuoha in Inside Kung Fu (February 2006).  In the opening picture of the article, Grandmaster Kuoha is striking his opponent with a right elbow.  The opposing "uke" has a hugh "emblem" on his back that includes the words in red: "DIAN-HSUHE." (Great article BTW)

I've read online on different sites where DIAN-HSUHE was the name of Professor William K.S. Chow's style of kenpo in the 1940's. I read on a website where Professor Chow named his early kenpo style, Dian Hsuhe Go Shinjutsu Kenpo Kai Karate.

I have not come across anyone who even talks about or demonstrates Dian-Hsuhe. A friend on the east coast mentioned that he thinks Master Bill Chun Jr. (Go Shin JitsuKai Chinese Kenpo) of Califoria talked about it before and does know Dian-Hsuhe.  He's seen Master Chun over a handful of times over the last five to six years, starting with The Gathering in Vegas (2000).

I have not been able to find much more about this style of kenpo. What does Dian-Hsuhe mean? What is Dian-Hsuhe? Is there a difference between Dian-Hsuhe and Kara-Ho? My friend thinks Master Chun might be the only one who knows Dian-Hsuhe since it appears that style was Professor Chow's early kenpo (plus Master Chun's kenpo name is practically the same as Professor Chow's early kenpo). Is he correct? Anyone on the east coast teach Dian-Hsuhe?

Thanks for helping end my curiosity


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## dianhsuhe

Dreamer-  Good question...

Dian-Hsuhe means "vital hit points" or vital striking points and is not a martial art unto itself.  This represents the striking areas in Kara-Ho Kempo.  You might also be able to see the Fist holding the Thunderbolt on our patch, obviously representing Professor Chow.

"I've read online on different sites where DIAN-HSUHE was the name of Professor William K.S. Chow's style of kenpo in the 1940's. I read on a website where Professor Chow named his early kenpo style, Dian Hsuhe Go Shinjutsu Kenpo Kai Karate."

This blurb is accurate as far as I know, Professor Chow used several names for his style of Kempo before finally naming his system "Chinese Kempo of Kara-Ho Karate" prior to his death in 1987.  Master Bill Chun Jr. inherited the Go Shin Jitsu Kai system from his father and I believe it is now referred to as the "Chow/Chun System".  It is also worth mentioning that the systems are pretty different reflecting Professor Chow's innovations over the years-

There is quite a bit of information on the Kara-Ho patch actually... 

Kara-Ho means the unity of spirit, mind, soul and body.  

Hope this helps at least a little- Also, Grandmaster Kuoha is on this forum occasionally if you do a search for, "Kara-Ho" or "Kuoha" you will find quite a bit of information on our system.

Take care,
 James


----------



## Dreamer

dianhsuhe: (Way cool screen name!)

Thanks a whole bunch for explaining what Dian-Hsuhe means and also explaining what Kara-Ho means. I can imagine the vital striking points that you might hit or strike&#8230; You mentioned that Kara-Ho and Chow/Chun System are pretty different reflecting Professor Chow&#8217;s innovation over the years. (It sounds like what you&#8217;re saying is that Professor Chow&#8217;s kempo evolved into something different from that which he initially created&#8230;makes a lot of sense...Bruce Lee's JKD evolved over time as did Parker's Kenpo) Are you able to elaborate on what makes the difference? (This is interesting...)

Your triangle insignia (where KARA-HO is written on top in red) is very interesting and unique with what appears to be a heart in the middle. What is the meaning to your insignia (or patch)? Does it signify what you mentioned what Kara-Ho means: unity of spirit, mind, soul and body?  I think that the Fist holding the Thunderbolt patch is also TOO COOL.  I can imagine one feeling really proud to wear that patch besides the fact you are learning or practicing Professor Chow&#8217;s (& Grandmaster Kuoha&#8217;s) kempo.

Thanks for educating me&#8230;I will do a search on the other threads to learn more.


----------



## dianhsuhe

The triangle basically is to remind us to stay centered and give 100% each time we train (Heart).


----------



## gmkuoha

Dreamer said:
			
		

> dianhsuhe: (Way cool screen name!)
> 
> Thanks a whole bunch for explaining what Dian-Hsuhe means and also explaining what Kara-Ho means. I can imagine the vital striking points that you might hit or strike You mentioned that Kara-Ho and Chow/Chun System are pretty different reflecting Professor Chows innovation over the years. (It sounds like what youre saying is that Professor Chows kempo evolved into something different from that which he initially createdmakes a lot of sense...Bruce Lee's JKD evolved over time as did Parker's Kenpo) Are you able to elaborate on what makes the difference? (This is interesting...)
> 
> 
> I'mmmmmm Bacccck! Sorry for all the things I have been missing, but things have gotten out of control here with work and you can all read about it on our website under "Thunderflash".
> First of all let us not be mistaken...Bill Chun *Sr*. was a 5th dan under Professor Chow and was an upstanding student/instructor in Professor Chow's system and had he stayed in contact would have probably been the leader of his system today, however in the last 10-15 years of Professor Chow's life MR. Chun Sr. had some personal issues in California along with some health issues and therefore had not been in contact with Professor Chow (this was told to me by Professor Chow). During the times that I trained with Professor Chow..he would bring out various scrap papers, napkins, paper placemats from Chinese Restuarants and start to teach me various things like muliple attacks (when something entered his mind, he would write it down and draw pictures of the movements no matter where he was and even that was passed on to me as I also did the same). He stated that no one had ever learned these prior so we put it to tests. It was grueling and tough but made more sense then I could ever imagine. He told me that if any of my instructors ever reach the rank of 2nd degree black belt...then I could start to teach them these things as it appears and trains like you had started another system all over again and it was very demanding. I guess at that time he thought that I might never have an accomplished instructor that would ever obtain that rank...but now I do have several throughout the world that has given up what I did in my ealier years to acheive these goals. If you get ahold of the Feb '06 issue of IKF magazine, it talks about what type of training these instructors have had to go  through to learn these arts and it can be referred to as: "Dian Hshue" or vital hit points because when defending against multiple attackers, you have to rapidly strke a vital area and move on as you do not have time to waste on just one person and instantly disabling each opponent as you quickly move on to the next.
> 
> I also read on this forum about giving credit where credit is due by referring to our seniors by their title instead of their first names. I have always done that as a sign of respect whether or not they are in or out of the dojo. I even refer to my instructors as Sensei's, because I feel if they have been able to accomplish and obtain that rank...they are derserving of that title, even from me. I refer to my physician as "doctor" everytime I see him and I imagine more then not have done the same or Professor from a college or something like that. What would be the difference in the arts? These are people that have given their entire life to make us better so why should'nt we refer them to their title, if nothing else for sheer respect as a professional. As I tell my students if they were in terrible trouble on the street and I was there, would they want my help and if the answer is yes...then I would be considered their instructor all the time and not just in the dojo or kwon. Hope this helped!
> Grandmaster Kuoha


----------



## youngbraveheart

Regardless if you're Kenpo or Kempo, I think if we are from one of the major Kenpo/Kempo branches that extend from Professor William Chow we are all "brothers and sisters." 

Shihan John James posted a thread in the "*Seminars, Camps, Events & Tournaments" *about a Professor William K.S. 'Thunderbolt' Chow Memorial to be held in February where the following Kenpo/Kempo will be represented:

Ed Parker's American Kenpo (Mr. Ed Parker, Jr.)
Kajukenbo (Sijo Emperado / GM Emil Bautista)
Shaolin Kenpo (GGM Castro)
Go Shin Jitsu Kenpo/Chinese Kempo Kai (Master Bill Chun, Jr.)
Nick Cerio's Kenpo (Shihan John James)
Kosho-Ryu Kenpo (GM Thomas Barrow Mitose)

I don't know about you, but I am looking forward to this Memorial Seminar. (I don't want to wait until February.) I am looking forward to seeing these different Kenpo/Kempo Masters show what their style is all about. I don't think anything like this will ever happen again in my lifetime in one place.  I look forward to seeing my "brothers and sisters" there!


----------



## Dreamer

How many of you Kenpo/Kempo martial artists are going to the Seminar for Professor Chow in February (in SF)? This appears to me to be a once in a lifetime opportunity to have these masters together in one place...I can't wait to see what the differences are between Kajukenbo, American Kenpo, Shaolin Kenpo, Go Shin Jitsu Kenpo/Chinese Kempo, NCK, and Mitose's Kenpo.


----------



## Dragon Snake/Diamond Step

GAB said:


> Hello,
> I have been reading quite a few of the translations that "Mr. Patrick McCarthy" has put into numerous books in the last few years.
> Mr. Patrick McCarthy translated what he could (very difficult due to misprint as it was handed down with writng errors, human errors), The Bible of Karate, "Bubishi".
> 
> There are many explanations he refers to and several different "Bubishi", but obviously the same book (Patrick McCarthy statement).
> 
> One of the writings regarding Kempo coming from China to Okinawa to Japan is this, Patrick MCCarthy writes:
> A sixth possibility is that the "Bubishi" was brought to Okinawa by Uechi Kanbun (1877-1948), the founder of Uechi-ryu. The Uechi-ryu karate-do tradition tells us Uechi went to Fuzhou (china) in 1897 where he ultimatly studied Guangdong Shaolin Temple Tiger Boxing directly under master Zhou Zihe (Shu Shiwa in Japanese).
> One of Uechi Kanbun's students, Tomoyose (Tomoyori) Ryuyu (1897-1970),
> an accomplished student of the fighting traditions, dedicated most of his life to writing an analysis of "kempo", vital point striking, and the application of Chinese herbal medicine. Entitled  Kempo Karate-jutsu Hiden (Secrets of Kempo Karate-jutsu), now owned by the Uechi family, addressed anumber of articles identical to the "Bubishi". Unfortunatly Tomoyose died before he was able to complete this analysis. The simularities are too frequent to doubt that the Uechi family once possessed a copy of the Bubishi.
> 
> I have noticed many connections with Kempo regarding the Medical side.
> I remember a student of Hanshi Bruce's saying the real truth did not come out until Mitose was to write his last book. (he said, he did not tell the whites the true way). Just a thought, regarding some of the information that was given to Hanshi (if you want to believe or not) prior to Mitose dying.
> 
> Reminds me of a deathbed declaration, who say's it is always the truth?
> Does give credence...or not.
> 
> The Bubishi is considered the "Bible of Karate" that came out of China to Okinawa then on to Japan. The term being the most popular now, which is Katate-do. I recommend this book for everyone in the Martial Arts.
> 
> Dave mentioned on the San Jose Kenpo board, we are all from the same denomination of Kenpo, I like that and it is very correct. Being from James Mitose!
> Regards, Gary


Hi Gary "GAB", 
I hope you can add some history connection between Okinawa Grand Masters and my Grand Master that i have studied under, 5days per week, for 10 yrs. He teaches "Jim-Tzu Kempo, Dragon Snake". I learned Diamond steps, stick fighting, and all the strikes as well as Prana-Bindu conditioning. I loved the power it generates. I practice it all as part of my cardio routines. One of the three of us that studied under Master Jimenez, went on to open his own Dragon Snake MMA dojo.
 I entered amateur MMA to test it out in an aggressive situation against another skilled fighter. I loved it! I won. But so limited by the rules of Amateur or even pro MMA, all the endless striking techinques i had trained for could not be used. The techniques he taught me are so rarely seen in MMA. The closest applied technique style in MMA that i have seen was by Cung Le while he was fighting under Strike Force with a record of 9-3. After he switched to UFC his Martial Arts Skill faded and he began fighting like everyone else....and he started losing... In my opinion, he should have stuck with his true martial arts technique/style... it was awesome to see executed and it was working in the cage.
My sen-sey's name is Grand Master Louis Jimenez. 5th Degree Black Belt Master Instructor in "Chinese Kempo(A modern method of Combat Self-Defense).  He explained that his father was in the military during Korean war and he grew up in Okinawa on one of the Islands, training under his grand master, along with other grand masters that would fight each other in sparring but full contact at high levels. 
His direct lineage from Grand Master William Chow. 
It would be interesting if you or people you know, know of my sen-sey and that part of history. Where he trained and if he is remembered. 
Thank you, Marco 1st Degree Black Belt Chinese Kempo


----------



## Dragon Snake/Diamond Step

youngbraveheart said:


> Regardless if you're Kenpo or Kempo, I think if we are from one of the major Kenpo/Kempo branches that extend from Professor William Chow we are all "brothers and sisters."
> 
> Shihan John James posted a thread in the "*Seminars, Camps, Events & Tournaments" *about a Professor William K.S. 'Thunderbolt' Chow Memorial to be held in February where the following Kenpo/Kempo will be represented:
> 
> Ed Parker's American Kenpo (Mr. Ed Parker, Jr.)
> Kajukenbo (Sijo Emperado / GM Emil Bautista)
> Shaolin Kenpo (GGM Castro)
> Go Shin Jitsu Kenpo/Chinese Kempo Kai (Master Bill Chun, Jr.)
> Nick Cerio's Kenpo (Shihan John James)
> Kosho-Ryu Kenpo (GM Thomas Barrow Mitose)
> 
> I don't know about you, but I am looking forward to this Memorial Seminar. (I don't want to wait until February.) I am looking forward to seeing these different Kenpo/Kempo Masters show what their style is all about. I don't think anything like this will ever happen again in my lifetime in one place.  I look forward to seeing my "brothers and sisters" there!


Hi "Youngbraveheart", 
Only seeing your post now because of a recent search on google. I would have loved to go to this Memorial and event to share what i was taught and to see others techniques.
I hope you can add some history connection between Okinawa Grand Masters and my Grand Master that i have studied under, 5days per week, for 10 yrs. He teaches "Jim-Tzu Kempo, Dragon Snake". I learned Diamond steps, stick fighting, and all the strikes as well as Prana-Bindu conditioning. I loved the power it generates. I practice it all as part of my cardio routines. One of the three of us that studied under Master Jimenez, went on to open his own Dragon Snake MMA dojo.
I entered amateur MMA to test it out in an aggressive situation against another skilled fighter. I loved it! I won. But so limited by the rules of Amateur or even pro MMA, all the endless striking techinques i had trained for could not be used. The techniques he taught me are so rarely seen in MMA. The closest applied technique style in MMA that i have seen was by Cung Le while he was fighting under Strike Force with a record of 9-3. After he switched to UFC his Martial Arts Skill faded and he began fighting like everyone else....and he started losing... In my opinion, he should have stuck with his true martial arts technique/style... it was awesome to see executed and it was working in the cage.
My sen-sey's name is Grand Master Louis Jimenez. 5th Degree Black Belt Master Instructor in "Chinese Kempo(A modern method of Combat Self-Defense).  He explained that his father was in the military during Korean war and he grew up in Okinawa on one of the Islands, training under his grand master, along with other grand masters that would fight each other in sparring but full contact at high levels. 
His direct lineage from Grand Master William Chow. 
It would be interesting if you or people you know, know of my sen-sey and that part of history. Where he trained and if he is remembered. 
Thank you, Marco 1st Degree Black Belt Chinese Kempo


----------



## Dragon Snake/Diamond Step

John Bishop said:


> It has always been spelled with a "N".
> 1.  Yes this certificate issued to Bruce Juchnik by James Mitose spells Kenpo  with a "N".
> 
> 2. Thomas Young told me personally that Mitose spelled Kenpo with a "N".
> 
> 3. In a copy of a letter I have from Thomas Young to Robert Trias, Prof. Young spelled Kenpo with a "N" in every reference to the style, and signed the letter "Prof. Thomas Young, Oldest Living Student of Kosho-Shorei Kenpo".
> 
> 4. In every copy of the "Kosho Shorei Newsletter" that I have from 1982 to 1985, Kenpo is always spelled with a "N".  And Mr Juchnik was one of the editors of that newsletter.
> 
> 5. In the 1988 4 part series on the "History of Kenpo" in "Fighting Arts International" magazine by Harry Cook, Mr. Juchnik, Mr. T. Mitose, and Dr. Golub are interviewed and pictured several times.  In every instance the term "Kenpo" is always used.
> 
> 6. In the June 1981 "Black Belt" article on the "History of Kenpo" written by
> Dr. Golub the spelling is "Kenpo".
> 
> 7. In the letters and writings I have from Robert Trias concerning his friendship and training with James Mitose in the 40's, he always refers to Mitose's style as "Kenpo".


Hi John, I only recently did a google search for information and this old thread popped up.
I hope you can add some history connection between Okinawa Grand Masters and my Grand Master that i have studied under, 5days per week, for 10 yrs. He teaches "Jim-Tzu Kempo, Dragon Snake". I learned Diamond steps, stick fighting, and all the strikes as well as Prana-Bindu conditioning. I loved the power it generates. I practice it all as part of my cardio routines. One of the three of us that studied under Master Jimenez, went on to open his own Dragon Snake MMA dojo.
I entered amateur MMA to test it out in an aggressive situation against another skilled fighter. I loved it! I won. But so limited by the rules of Amateur or even pro MMA, all the endless striking techinques i had trained for could not be used. The techniques he taught me are so rarely seen in MMA. The closest applied technique style in MMA that i have seen was by Cung Le while he was fighting under Strike Force with a record of 9-3. After he switched to UFC his Martial Arts Skill faded and he began fighting like everyone else....and he started losing... In my opinion, he should have stuck with his true martial arts technique/style... it was awesome to see executed and it was working in the cage.
My sen-sey's name is Grand Master Louis Jimenez. 5th Degree Black Belt Master Instructor in "Chinese Kempo(A modern method of Combat Self-Defense).  He explained that his father was in the military during Korean war and he grew up in Okinawa on one of the Islands, training under his grand master, along with other grand masters that would fight each other in sparring but full contact at high levels. 
His direct lineage from Grand Master William Chow. 
It would be interesting if you or people you know, know of my sen-sey and that part of history. Where he trained and if he is remembered. 
Thank you, Marco 1st Degree Black Belt Chinese Kempo


----------

