# Opinion needed on a fighting system



## dcsma (Aug 31, 2016)

Just curious here and to see what everyone has to say from experience or not on the Tony Blauers S.P.E.A.R. system?? Worth the $200 for a 8 hour seminar?


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## Buka (Aug 31, 2016)

I think you'll learn a lot. You might get more out of it if you're Law Enforcement, Military, a trainer or teaching Martial Arts or self defense, than you would if you're not.

If you can afford it, what the heck? Thing about seminars is you get more out of some than out of others, not necessarily due to the qualifications of the instructors, but by both how well they teach and how well it blends with what you do. But take good notes, and go over them over the following weeks, sometimes there's a lot of stuff you forget....especially if you don't write it down. 

Get sleep the night before and bring good food and water, eight hour seminars can put your mind to sleep come the afternoon.


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## MaMaD (Aug 31, 2016)

and after that share with us that notes u wrote


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 31, 2016)

I am going to agree with Buka.  Whether you get something good out of the seminar has more to do with you then with the presenter.  Tony has some good stuff but....is it what you want?   Why are you interested in working with him ?  Are you familiar with what he does?   I would suggest watching all his youtube stuff and decide if it is something you really need to know more about.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> I am going to agree with Buka.  Whether you get something good out of the seminar has more to do with you then with the presenter.  Tony has some good stuff but....is it what you want?   Why are you interested in working with him ?  Are you familiar with what he does?   I would suggest watching all his youtube stuff and decide if it is something you really need to know more about.


Yes, and it has a lot to do with where you are and what you need in that moment. I tend to get more out of seminars now than I did 20 years ago, but I don't get my best benefits from the same kinds of seminars now.


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## dcsma (Sep 1, 2016)

Ok thank you for the input. There is a lady who is teaching the system in the area and only has a year an half experience in the system. Always looking for added knowledge but the lack of experience was concerning


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2016)

Don't do it  lol...
Here's the deal about 8 hour seminars.  Can you learn your system in 8 hours? in a year?  If not then don't expect this seminar to make you a warrior  I find that self-defense seminars that show cases these techniques are best suited for someone who is already training in some kind of martial art, which is why gpseymour gets more out of these seminars now than he did 20 years ago.

In short seminars like this are more of an applications seminar where someone says here's the technique and here's how to apply it in a possible real life scenario.  For example: The stuff that he shows here are things that are taught by default in Kung Fu





The only difference between what he is teaching and what is taught in martial arts is that a strong parry to his guard will screw up his day.  The concept of hand placement as a way to encourage your opponent to do a certain attack is nothing new.  If you notice he says that if you try to spar with this then you'll get your butt kick.

This has kung fu written all over it. I would have been the smart *** who would have put my hand only an inch from the medicine ball and blast it out of his grip. lol.





Martial Arts already incorporate this concept in the forms, techniques, and combinations





A lot of the things he's going to go over are things that you are probably already training in your school, the only difference is that you are going to see the application version of some of the techniques that are found in Martial Arts.  Some of them you'll be able to do and some of them you won't be able to do because you don't have the understanding of how to properly drive the power for the technique.



dcsma said:


> There is a lady who is teaching the system in the area and only has a year an half experience in the system.


If this is all she knows then I definitely wouldn't take it.  If she has extensive training in other martial arts then you may be able to get enough out of it to piece things together a higher understanding of it.   Sometimes all you need is a hint to get you thinking in the right direction.  If she has a really strong martial art background including application then it will be worth the the $200 assuming that this amount means that you can also ask deeper questions.

My personal opinion is that you probably can learn a lot of what he teaches just by connecting with other instructors and Sifu's out there.  You'll get more than 8 hours worth of information and you'll build reliable networks of friends that will be more than happen to share application knowledge with you.


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## Paul_D (Sep 1, 2016)

I know nothing of the system, so won't comment on it's functionality, but I would question what's really motivating someone charging $200 for a seminar.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2016)

dcsma said:


> Ok thank you for the input. There is a lady who is teaching the system in the area and only has a year an half experience in the system. Always looking for added knowledge but the lack of experience was concerning


I would not pay money to take a seminar from someone who only has a year and a half experience with the method.

I'm not a fan of seminars anyway, but this would definitely be one to stay away from, in my opinion.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 1, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I would not pay money to take a seminar from someone who only has a year and a half experience with the method.
> 
> I'm not a fan of seminars anyway, but this would definitely be one to stay away from, in my opinion.


I took the question to be regarding a seminar with Tony Blauer himself, not the local teacher who has minimal experience. 

If it's with Blauer, then it might be worthwhile. If it's with an instructor who only has 1.5 years experience then definitely not.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 1, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> I know nothing of the system, so won't comment on it's functionality, but I would question what's really motivating someone charging $200 for a seminar.


It's a little steep, but if it's really 8 hours (spread over a couple of days, I would imagine), then it's not too out of line with what many people on the seminar circuit are charging.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It's a little steep, but if it's really 8 hours (spread over a couple of days, I would imagine), then it's not too out of line with what many people on the seminar circuit are charging.



For anything.
You get a two day first aid course for $200

My issue is i want to be taught something new. Which i generally dont get from a sd work shop.

And would rather a technical expert.


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## Juany118 (Sep 1, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Don't do it  lol...
> Here's the deal about 8 hour seminars.  Can you learn your system in 8 hours? in a year?  If not then don't expect this seminar to make you a warrior  I find that self-defense seminars that show cases these techniques are best suited for someone who is already training in some kind of martial art, which is why gpseymour gets more out of these seminars now than he did 20 years ago.
> 
> In short seminars like this are more of an applications seminar where someone says here's the technique and here's how to apply it in a possible real life scenario.  For example: The stuff that he shows here are things that are taught by default in Kung Fu
> ...



The thing with Seminars like this though, and the videos you show don't real show it, is that it goes a lot deeper into tactics.  It also incorporates natural reactions etc.  The following video is the first in a series that go into precontract cues, exploiting natural reactions vs fighting them etc which most martial arts don't really get into that much.  The later we can say "okay, that works if you aren't practicing martial arts daily" but the precontract cues and the like are vital.


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## Red Sun (Sep 1, 2016)

Hmm. If i google "human flinch response", i dont see any that resemble my flinch response.

Lean away > Head turns to almost look behind me > Left hand reaches for their face > The back of my right hand is on my left jaw hinge > I rush forward and usually end up with a headlock and an overhook, or right forearm pressing into face/throat if theres a height difference.

This happens alot.

Is there a 'weaponized' version of this in Blauers material?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> I know nothing of the system, so won't comment on it's functionality, but I would question what's really motivating someone charging $200 for a seminar.


 It's $200 for 8 hours.  Usually at costs like that the people attending have some kind of background in self-defense and this is would be a deeper look.  Most martial arts that train for self-defense give a deeper look into the techniques as the student progresses.  From the instructors that I've met, they are more than happy to provide deeper knowledge to a student who really has a passion for the system or a similar system.


Juany118 said:


> The thing with Seminars like this though, and the videos you show don't real show it, is that it goes a lot deeper into tactics.  It also incorporates natural reactions etc.  The following video is the first in a series that go into precontract cues, exploiting natural reactions vs fighting them etc which most martial arts don't really get into that much.  The later we can say "okay, that works if you aren't practicing martial arts daily" but the precontract cues and the like are vital.


Here are things that I'm not impressed with.

1. Aiming for nerve clusters (0:10)  - The deal with nerve clusters is that you don't really aim for them.  The technique is what gets you there.  All of that repetitive drilling and correct arm position that martial arts students is what makes it possible to hit the nerve clusters that he is talking about.  You may not hit the nerve on the first try, but if the technique is correct then your worst case scenario is that you'll block the punch. From there it becomes a game of chance and considering that you are using the same blocking technique for, say a jab, then your chances of hitting that nerve cluster increases with each punch you block.  It doesn't matter if you block a left punch or a right punch the technique plus conditioning will get you there.  As far as nerve clusters in the arm, those are easy to reach.  There is one on the top and one the bottom. 

2. The flinch mechanism (0:38) that he speaks of is old news.  Martial arts already utilizes flinch movements.  For example, the parry is a natural flinch movement.  What do you naturally do if there is a bug flying around your face?





Here's better view of that natural parry.  Guess how I teach my 5 year old student how to parry?  I tell her to swat the fly.





3. Unconscious Reaction Vs. Conscious reaction -  It is probably more accurate to say subconscious.  If you are unconscious then you aren't responding to anything.  The body is always aware provided that we aren't having a day dreaming spell or some type of tunneled focus.  This is how we are able to catch things out of the corner of our eye even though we aren't actively making an effort to look for it.  

4: Complex motor skill vs Primal motor skill (1:58) - Both require a timing range for success, don't let anyone fool you about that.  If he's late throwing up his guard he still gets hit.  This is where multiple techniques of blocking come into play. If you see that you are late in using one type of block then your knowledge of techniques will fire off a different type of block or motion that will help you get out of the way.   If you notice his block still was exact timing. He got his hands up for the block at the same time the punch was coming in.  As far as you knowing which punch is coming at you.  You actually have the ability to encourage your attacker to throw certain punches.  When you are able to do this then it doesn't become such a guessing game any more because you know what direction most of the punches are going to come from.  This is also covered in every martial arts via stance training, one step partner drills, and sparring.  

5. Action vs Reaction (4:00) - Action is not always faster than Reaction. Visual training and learning how to use peripheral vision will allow your reaction to be faster than a person's action. Peripheral vision is a natural motion detection that makes it possible to see a punch before it is actually thrown. This is also covered in Martial Arts as well.  For example, he states that if he sees you starting to throw a punch then it will start the flinch.  If I see you throw a punch then it's going to initiate a trained response of my choosing.

6. When a police officer walks up to someone he should maintain the necessary distance to provide maximum reaction time.  Walking up to someone and getting into someone's face the way he did reduces your reaction time, unless you are the person that will be initiating the attack.  If you have no plans to initiate an attack then the distance needs to be far enough to make a sucker punch attack more difficult.


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## Juany118 (Sep 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's $200 for 8 hours.  Usually at costs like that the people attending have some kind of background in self-defense and this is would be a deeper look.  Most martial arts that train for self-defense give a deeper look into the techniques as the student progresses.  From the instructors that I've met, they are more than happy to provide deeper knowledge to a student who really has a passion for the system or a similar system.
> 
> Here are things that I'm not impressed with.
> 
> ...



Don't mean to sound like an *** but I will start with the last.  I have done that job for almost 19 years so I can attest to something.  I have one of two choices.  Demand everyone I deal with stay at a minimum 20 feet away or deal with each situation on their initial impression and adapt.  S.P.E.A.R is about the later.

For 5, again you are projecting.  You an I study martial arts this system is for those who don't.  Maybe you don't know this... I have been a police officer since before this century.  Do you want to know how many times, after I left the academy, I have had actual hand to hand training as part of the job?  Once.  Add in baton training 9.  Total hours each time?  2 max. 

I think you are looking at the system from a martial artist's stand point that is wrong.  SPEAR is designed for someone to be able to deal with the the violence in the world who aren't martial artists, both attacker and defender, you and I are a SMALL minority my friend.  Would I replace SPEAR with my training?  Hell no but that doesn't say it won't work for 99% of the encounters most people will bump into on the street either.

Ignoring all of the above however I have yet to study in a MA school that sits us down and talks about how real fights actually start, the cues we need to look for etc.  I learned them, sometimes the hardway, and these are the most important in self defense as a civilian because if you read them right you don't need to say "oh **** it's on" like I need to on "the clock" you can say "oh ****, RUN" which I will do if not in my town or on the clock (sorry going home to family in my number one job).

Its the non physical dynamics that make the system really valuable though.  The training on body language, how to go from "jack in the box" to fight when you thought everything was fine.  This is how real world fights work and in all my years I have yet to walk into a MA school that teaches this skill set.  If you teach that set sir, I wish you were in my State, that is genuine btw, not sarcasm.


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## Buka (Sep 2, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I took the question to be regarding a seminar with Tony Blauer himself, not the local teacher who has minimal experience.
> 
> If it's with Blauer, then it might be worthwhile. If it's with an instructor who only has 1.5 years experience then definitely not.



That's how I took it as well.

As for any thoughts concerning police work, you need to work that job to really have any idea.

I look at seminars the same way I look at movie trailers. I know that sounds odd, but I do. If I like the trailer, I'll probably go see the movie. If I like the seminar, find it useful, I'll probably do a more in depth study of what it concerns.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 2, 2016)

Yeah, I took it that Tony Blauer was teaching the seminar myself.

$200 is steep for any seminar and an eight hour seminar is sure to burn you out after a couple of hours.  However, if it is taught over a couple of days then two, four hour seminars might be good.  All depends on how good the teacher is with the material.


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## Paul_D (Sep 2, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It's a little steep, but if it's really 8 hours (spread over a couple of days, I would imagine), then it's not too out of line with what many people on the seminar circuit are charging.


I'd want lunch too for that much


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 2, 2016)

The bottom line is he charges what people are willing to pay.  I remember reading Bruce Lee would charge $2000.  an hour.
If you don't like the price or the value you get for the money, ,move along.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> The bottom line is he charges what people are willing to pay.  I remember reading Bruce Lee would charge $2000.  an hour.
> If you don't like the price or the value you get for the money, ,move along.


I've had folks complain about the cost of training seminars (outside MA). They forget what all goes into some of them:

equipment purchased/rented
cost of space
hours spent preparing
cost of administration
travel, perhaps lodging
If I put 10 people in a room at $200 for 6 hours, they feel like my company is making a ****-ton of money ($2,000 for 6 hours). In reality, that's not a high profit margin activity at that rate.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I think you are looking at the system from a martial artist's stand point that is wrong. SPEAR is designed for someone to be able to deal with the the violence in the world who aren't martial artists, both attacker and defender, you and I are a SMALL minority my friend. Would I replace SPEAR with my training? Hell no but that doesn't say it won't work for 99% of the encounters most people will bump into on the street either.


 I never said it wouldn't work.  Just stating that many people already get this with their martial arts training.  The techniques in SPEAR will only work if the person drills them until they are natural.  You can spend 8 hours teaching this to someone who doesn't know martial arts, and they could still easily fail to apply the techniques that were taught including the flinch based ones.

The person could be attack and still go through the thought process of "Now what was that SPEAR technique."  Many of those techniques that he uses comes from various martial art systems. So there would be no reason to think that students of an 8 hour seminar who don't take martial arts would be able to  learn how to apply those techniques in a real fight situation sooner than someone who has been drilling similar techniques in a class that they have been taking for more than a year. 



Juany118 said:


> Ignoring all of the above however I have yet to study in a MA school that sits us down and talks about how real fights actually start, the cues we need to look for etc. I learned them, sometimes the hardway, and these are the most important in self defense as a civilian because if you read them right you don't need to say "oh **** it's on" like I need to on "the clock" you can say "oh ****, RUN" which I will do if not in my town or on the clock (sorry going home to family in my number one job).


All of the Martial Arts schools that I've seen that have a strong focus on self defense talk about these things in detail.  Martial Arts schools that focus on forms competition, self-confidence, and other self-improvement elements tend not to go into detail when it comes to self-defense. 



Juany118 said:


> Its the non physical dynamics that make the system really valuable though. The training on body language, how to go from "jack in the box" to fight when you thought everything was fine. This is how real world fights work and in all my years I have yet to walk into a MA school that teaches this skill set. If you teach that set sir, I wish you were in my State, that is genuine btw, not sarcasm.


I don't know everything, but I would be more than happy to share what I do know and things that I've actually used to in real life confrontations. I would also be more than happy to learn things from you as well.  I'm not saying this as a replacement for the seminar, but as a sharing of information, knowledge, and perspectives.


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## frank raud (Sep 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I've had folks complain about the cost of training seminars (outside MA). They forget what all goes into some of them:
> 
> equipment purchased/rented
> cost of space
> ...


I've brought instructors up to Canada from Chicago, Lousianna, New York and Mississippi. Just the travel costs sometimes make it difficult to break even. I remember going to a Larry Hartsell seminar in Montreal that was not well attended. The organizer said it would have been cheaper for him to fly to California and train with Larry, as opposed to what it cost to bring him up and be unable to recoup his costs.


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## Buka (Sep 3, 2016)

I used to bring instructors from other dojos in the area into my dojo, and pay them to teach seminars.  I did that a lot, wanted my students to see what else there was out there other than what we did. (please don't immediately dismiss that, it's actually really good)

I used to bring in EMTs, doctors, sports trainers, boxers, shooting instructors, cops (crime prevention) to teach seminars. I used to bring in Rickson Gracie, Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis. The best way to do that, if they're not already scheduled to be in your area, is to set up seminars in surrounding areas, say a hundred miles. It keeps the costs down, plus, if you do it right, you get to go to all of them for free, usually assisting them. (getting your butt kicked)


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2016)

Buka said:


> I used to bring instructors from other dojos in the area into my dojo, and pay them to teach seminars.  I did that a lot, wanted my students to see what else there was out there other than what we did. (please don't immediately dismiss that, it's actually really good)
> 
> I used to bring in EMTs, doctors, sports trainers, boxers, shooting instructors, cops (crime prevention) to teach seminars. I used to bring in Rickson Gracie, Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis. The best way to do that, if they're not already scheduled to be in your area, is to set up seminars in surrounding areas, say a hundred miles. It keeps the costs down, plus, if you do it right, you get to go to all of them for free, usually assisting them. (getting your butt kicked)


This is something I'd really love to do. I got a lot out of seeing other arts - even if only for a day with some - and it advanced my understanding of my primary art immeasurably. If I ever manage to grow my program large enough, I'll do some of this. For now, I try to make friends and invite experienced practitioners from other arts and from other schools withing NGA to drop in on classes, in hopes of exposing students to other views.


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## Juany118 (Sep 3, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I never said it wouldn't work.  Just stating that many people already get this with their martial arts training.  The techniques in SPEAR will only work if the person drills them until they are natural.  You can spend 8 hours teaching this to someone who doesn't know martial arts, and they could still easily fail to apply the techniques that were taught including the flinch based ones.
> 
> The person could be attack and still go through the thought process of "Now what was that SPEAR technique."  Many of those techniques that he uses comes from various martial art systems. So there would be no reason to think that students of an 8 hour seminar who don't take martial arts would be able to  learn how to apply those techniques in a real fight situation sooner than someone who has been drilling similar techniques in a class that they have been taking for more than a year.
> 
> ...



My main point though is what you teach, what I study, it requires training multiple times a month and almost daily practice.  A system like SPEARS, in terms of the physical techniques, is designed around the idea of taking as much advantage as possible of natural human reflexes to stimulus.  This makes not only the training itself easier but also makes for less perishable skills.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 4, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I've had folks complain about the cost of training seminars (outside MA). They forget what all goes into some of them:
> 
> equipment purchased/rented
> cost of space
> ...


How much would the expenses be for a 10 person seminar? Assuming no real travel/lodging funds, since Im guessing that would vary a lot based on the space. I do not do seminars as I dont even teach currently, so I don't really have a way to conceptualize the costs involved.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> How much would the expenses be for a 10 person seminar? Assuming no real travel/lodging funds, since Im guessing that would vary a lot based on the space. I do not do seminars as I dont even teach currently, so I don't really have a way to conceptualize the costs involved.


If there's no real travel cost, then my costs go way down. The cost of the space becomes the biggest factor other than the cost of my time. Space can range from free (rarely) to several hundred dollars a day. If I was doing a 10-person seminar, I'd probably be paying $200-400 for the space.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 4, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> My main point though is what you teach, what I study, it requires training multiple times a month and almost daily practice.  A system like SPEARS, in terms of the physical techniques, is designed around the idea of taking as much advantage as possible of natural human reflexes to stimulus.  This makes not only the training itself easier but also makes for less perishable skills.


 You keep talking about SPEARS as if it's different from the martial arts that are taught. The same exact techniques that he teaches and uses are found in other martial arts systems.   Show me a S.P.E.A.R technique and 8 times out of 10, I can probably show that same concept in multiple martial art systems.

S.P.E.A.R. takes martial arts techniques and turns it into an applications class.  Unfortunately there are many martial art schools out there that don't have a dedicated day for training application of a technique which is why some of this stuff may look new.


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## Juany118 (Sep 4, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> You keep talking about SPEARS as if it's different from the martial arts that are taught. The same exact techniques that he teaches and uses are found in other martial arts systems.   Show me a S.P.E.A.R technique and 8 times out of 10, I can probably show that same concept in multiple martial art systems.
> 
> S.P.E.A.R. takes martial arts techniques and turns it into an applications class.  Unfortunately there are many martial art schools out there that don't have a dedicated day for training application of a technique which is why some of this stuff may look new.



Some of it yes, but there is A LOT more than what you see on most of the YouTube videos.  Maybe it's focused on in the LEO courses but there is a lot about exploiting your own natural flinch reflex (like in the video I showed) and other natural human reactions to address the initial conflict.  It isn't close to any regular TMA class I have taken in however many decades of A. TMA training and B. Practical street application.

He isn't the only only out there btw, but there are a lot of combative systems floating around that work on similar principles that while I do not prefer personally, I would also have to admit are better for the average person who won't put in the time I am willing to.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Some of it yes, but there is A LOT more than what you see on most of the YouTube videos.  Maybe it's focused on in the LEO courses but there is a lot about exploiting your own natural flinch reflex (like in the video I showed) and other natural human reactions to address the initial conflict.  It isn't close to any regular TMA class I have taken in however many decades of A. TMA training and B. Practical street application.
> 
> He isn't the only only out there btw, but there are a lot of combative systems floating around that work on similar principles that while I do not prefer personally, I would also have to admit are better for the average person who won't put in the time I am willing to.


Actually, I spend a lot of time teaching students how to leverage flinch reactions. I show them how to recognize a good next action (which Classical Technique is available) while in the middle of that first action, which is often based on a flinch response.


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## Juany118 (Sep 4, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, I spend a lot of time teaching students how to leverage flinch reactions. I show them how to recognize a good next action (which Classical Technique is available) while in the middle of that first action, which is often based on a flinch response.



But is that actually part of the MA you teach or is that your own addition to the curriculum?  Most TMAs I have studied are about using training and practice to developed more refined techniques that, to an extent, replace the flinch response.  I think the video I linked above shows something to that effect.  He shows what one might naturally do if a swing comes in vs a "trained" response.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 5, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, I spend a lot of time teaching students how to leverage flinch reactions


Same here.  The students don't listen to me yet but the light bulb will come on one day, after they learn to stop forcing the techniques. lol.  One of the biggest problems that Martial Art students, instructors, and teachers often is forcing the techniques and trying to make a technique work instead of just letting it happen.  When we swat at flies we just let it happen.  

My natural flinch response used to be to catch a fly, until the day I caught one that stung.  Because of that bee my flinch response is to swat.  In my mind martial arts techniques work the same way.  Our natural flinch may be lean forward to grab a leg when someone kicks, but through training we learn to leg check.  We don't train to get rid of the flinch, we just train the action that should come with the flinch.


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## Buka (Sep 5, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> You keep talking about SPEARS as if it's different from the martial arts that are taught. The same exact techniques that he teaches and uses are found in other martial arts systems.   Show me a S.P.E.A.R technique and 8 times out of 10, I can probably show that same concept in multiple martial art systems.
> 
> S.P.E.A.R. takes martial arts techniques and turns it into an applications class.  Unfortunately there are many martial art schools out there that don't have a dedicated day for training application of a technique which is why some of this stuff may look new.



I'll bet you would like the course, at least if he was teaching. Bet you would learn something. Maybe not anything earth shattering, but I'd bet you would pick something up that you would find valuable.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 5, 2016)

Buka said:


> I'll bet you would like the course, at least if he was teaching. Bet you would learn something. Maybe not anything earth shattering, but I'd bet you would pick something up that you would find valuable.


I don't have any doubt that I would learn something. The entire benefit that I've found just by talking to people from other systems is that I learn something.  Sometimes another system has a technique whose application shines a light on a technique that is in the system that I study.

I guess what I'm really trying to stress is the importance of digging deeper into the techniques that we study and try to understand the mechanics of it and it's numerous applications.  Sometimes people think that something is new (MMA) and don't realize that it's just something that has be renamed and repackaged.
But I'll get off my soap box now.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> But is that actually part of the MA you teach or is that your own addition to the curriculum?  Most TMAs I have studied are about using training and practice to developed more refined techniques that, to an extent, replace the flinch response.  I think the video I linked above shows something to that effect.  He shows what one might naturally do if a swing comes in vs a "trained" response.


There's a bit of both. It's more ingrained in Shojin-ryu than in the mainline curriculum. Even in mine, the concept is over time to replace the flinch with some adaptations that make it easier to access the techniques, but I start from the flinch response (in fact, the first block I teach is based on it), and work from there, refining as their skill grows.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Same here.  The students don't listen to me yet but the light bulb will come on one day, after they learn to stop forcing the techniques. lol.  One of the biggest problems that Martial Art students, instructors, and teachers often is forcing the techniques and trying to make a technique work instead of just letting it happen.  When we swat at flies we just let it happen.
> 
> My natural flinch response used to be to catch a fly, until the day I caught one that stung.  Because of that bee my flinch response is to swat.  In my mind martial arts techniques work the same way.  Our natural flinch may be lean forward to grab a leg when someone kicks, but through training we learn to leg check.  We don't train to get rid of the flinch, we just train the action that should come with the flinch.


Agreed. My students are trained to stop in place when I say "stop". When I see someone trying to force a technique, I say, "Stop. Forcing that won't work. Find what's already there."


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2016)

Buka said:


> I'll bet you would like the course, at least if he was teaching. Bet you would learn something. Maybe not anything earth shattering, but I'd bet you would pick something up that you would find valuable.


I would hope to learn something. I'd hope to pick up at least one thing that really changes something I do already - nearly every seminar I've ever attended has provided at least one of those.


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## Juany118 (Sep 5, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> There's a bit of both. It's more ingrained in Shojin-ryu than in the mainline curriculum. Even in mine, the concept is over time to replace the flinch with some adaptations that make it easier to access the techniques, but I start from the flinch response (in fact, the first block I teach is based on it), and work from there, refining as their skill grows.



I think the issue may the then, that to an extent, both you and Jow may be projecting (a little) because most instructors of TMAs, in my experience, are about how you should train in the techniques until they become natural because they are more effective than the natural responses, which include the flinch response.  They will stop you if you appear to be forcing the technique, but they will typically simply say "slow it down, you are forcing it..." Etc. 

There should be more teachers like you guys out there btw.  Too many people get certified (by whatever method) and and don't actually understand self defense and martial arts knowledge are necessarily synonymous.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 5, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I think the issue may the then, that to an extent, both you and Jow may be projecting (a little) because most instructors of TMAs, in my experience, are about how you should train in the techniques until they become natural because they are more effective than the natural responses, which include the flinch response. They will stop you if you appear to be forcing the technique, but they will typically simply say "slow it down, you are forcing it..." Etc.


 I'm not sure about what is meant by forcing a technique when they tell you to "slow it down."  When I say slow down it is usually related to control. Sometimes students will try to do things faster than they are able to handle and as a result technique falls apart.  

For me forcing a technique is not about the speed or the power.  It's more about using a technique that doesn't work natural for the position that they are in.

For example, I would have been screaming at Victor Moore (0:36) mark for trying to parry a punch starting from his waist. He was forcing a technique that was never designed to be used from that position.




I would have yelled "Do we train like that in class? Then why would you stand like that with your hands to the side and expect it to work." lol.  He would have a long 2 hour lecture about something that only takes less than 2 minutes to understand.  If Bruce Lee told him to stand like that, then he should have said.  Nah bruh!! It don't work that way. lol
I don't think I've heard of  "technique forcing" as something that relates to "slow it down"  is that related to muscling technique?   When I hear slow it down, it's usually because someone is trying to do a technique faster than they are capable of doing.  The faster someone goes the more likely a technique will fall apart.  So speed and technique are often trained with the goal of being able to go fast without destroying or short cutting technique.

What is usually happening when they are saying "slow it down" are they doing forms or is someone punching too hard?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure about what is meant by forcing a technique when they tell you to "slow it down."  When I say slow down it is usually related to control. Sometimes students will try to do things faster than they are able to handle and as a result technique falls apart.
> 
> For me forcing a technique is not about the speed or the power.  It's more about using a technique that doesn't work natural for the position that they are in.
> 
> ...


With NGA, when students are supposed to be using the principle of "aiki" (finding where there's an opening for a technique that requires no force), they have to start very slow, so they can feel the opening. Many try to go fast, to mimic what they've seen someone else (in my case, me) do. When they go faster than they are currently capable of, they tend to use muscle, because their timing is off or they've missed the kuzushi (off-balancing) moment. Sometimes, when they go fast, it works, but only because they are moving faster than their partner, which can give them a false sense of skill.


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## Justin Chang (Sep 6, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yeah, I took it that Tony Blauer was teaching the seminar myself.
> 
> $200 is steep for any seminar and an eight hour seminar is sure to burn you out after a couple of hours.  However, if it is taught over a couple of days then two, four hour seminars might be good.  All depends on how good the teacher is with the material.


I think this may depend on the person, I have attended seminars that were three days long and each day was over 8 hours.  I didn't find it overwhelming or burning me out, but we had lots of discussions, break for lunch, physical exercises so it wasn't tedious.  I don't think that $200 is really steep for a seminar, seems to be the going rate actually.


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## jks9199 (Sep 6, 2016)

Is the seminar worth the money?  Don't know, haven't taken it.  Tony Blauer makes some great gear.  He also has marketed himself and his program really well.  By all accounts, he's a great presenter, very dynamic and exciting.

But, for all that... he hasn't walked the walk.  And I have an issue with that.  He's never been a cop, a security guard, or bouncer, or door man, or anything similar.  So, as much as folks like what he teaches and say it's solid... I don't know how effectively they actually took his material.  In a small comparison -- I know that the Gracies took their DT package out, and when they received criticism on it -- they tested it and adapted to what they found.  Or showed that their ideas worked... at least in a sort of standardized set up.  I am not aware that Blauer has done that -- or that he hasn't.

If you've got the money and time, what they hell?  What's the worst outcome?  You spend a day finding out that it's crap?  I don't know about anyone else, but I always find at least one useful thing out of a training experience... even if it's just "I never want to do that again!"


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## Juany118 (Sep 6, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> Is the seminar worth the money?  Don't know, haven't taken it.  Tony Blauer makes some great gear.  He also has marketed himself and his program really well.  By all accounts, he's a great presenter, very dynamic and exciting.
> 
> But, for all that... he hasn't walked the walk.  And I have an issue with that.  He's never been a cop, a security guard, or bouncer, or door man, or anything similar.  So, as much as folks like what he teaches and say it's solid... I don't know how effectively they actually took his material.  In a small comparison -- I know that the Gracies took their DT package out, and when they received criticism on it -- they tested it and adapted to what they found.  Or showed that their ideas worked... at least in a sort of standardized set up.  I am not aware that Blauer has done that -- or that he hasn't.
> 
> If you've got the money and time, what they hell?  What's the worst outcome?  You spend a day finding out that it's crap?  I don't know about anyone else, but I always find at least one useful thing out of a training experience... even if it's just "I never want to do that again!"



The "what the hell" is something I believe in a lot.  You never know until it's been tried.  Even if it's been tried by others it may not work for you personally because we are all different, both physically and mentally.  While I am not an cop in Great Britain though I would hope that the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Chief_Police_Officer did their research before this became the only system, apparently, that they ever put into a personal training manual


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## Buka (Sep 6, 2016)

On a personal note -
I've never attended a Blauer seminar, never met the man. But have used the SPEAR system training with, and teaching, other cops. I've done some training with some of his people over the years and learned some good things. While I was a DT trainer I was part of their network, you know, getting updates, class schedules, blah, blah. Then I retired.
But I was still training Law Enforcement officers, lots of them. Called Blauer's people for something or other, I forget what. I was told, "Oh, we're sorry, you're not active Law enforcement any more..." so basically they said screw you, even though I had been retired all of a week and was still training cops. 
I had steam coming out my ears.

Funny how things work out. I'm going back into Law Enforcement in a few weeks. Been jumping through hoops for a month, qualified at the range this afternoon. Once I'm back in I'm going to contact them again, send them my creds - and then tell them to take their program and shove it up their.......
And if I ever get to go to one of their seminars anywhere around here, I'm going to, just to voice my displeasure in person, warn the other older cops how they'll be thrown aside soon, and just maybe, have me some fun. And I SO hope to God Tony Blauer is teaching.
Abuse of the elderly is what it is!

I still like their stuff, though.


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## Justin Chang (Sep 7, 2016)

Buka said:


> On a personal note -
> I've never attended a Blauer seminar, never met the man. But have used the SPEAR system training with, and teaching, other cops. I've done some training with some of his people over the years and learned some good things. While I was a DT trainer I was part of their network, you know, getting updates, class schedules, blah, blah. Then I retired.
> But I was still training Law Enforcement officers, lots of them. Called Blauer's people for something or other, I forget what. I was told, "Oh, we're sorry, you're not active Law enforcement any more..." so basically they said screw you, even though I had been retired all of a week and was still training cops.
> I had steam coming out my ears.
> ...



I really respect someone who has 'issues' with a person or group of people running a course or style but yet they don't just bad talk the style itself.  Too many people would have had your experience and then gone out and bad talked the whole system.  This is how I personally feel about Commando Krav Maga, I think their material is solid, I like the style, however there is so much contraversy around Moni that many people won't even look at it.


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## Juany118 (Sep 7, 2016)

Buka said:


> On a personal note -
> I've never attended a Blauer seminar, never met the man. But have used the SPEAR system training with, and teaching, other cops. I've done some training with some of his people over the years and learned some good things. While I was a DT trainer I was part of their network, you know, getting updates, class schedules, blah, blah. Then I retired.
> But I was still training Law Enforcement officers, lots of them. Called Blauer's people for something or other, I forget what. I was told, "Oh, we're sorry, you're not active Law enforcement any more..." so basically they said screw you, even though I had been retired all of a week and was still training cops.
> I had steam coming out my ears.
> ...



Heck that last bit happens on the job sometimes.  You stop living at work after 15-20 years or so, to say not have your wife say "fff this", the new single guys and gals come on-line running and gunning and living there the way you used to... You can start feeling like Woody from "Toy Story" some days


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## wingchun100 (Sep 26, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> I know nothing of the system, so won't comment on it's functionality, but I would question what's really motivating someone charging $200 for a seminar.


 
It's like she is earning $25 an hour, but figure some of this money has to go into renting the facility where the seminar will be held, maybe paying any assitant instructor she has (she might bring along one colleague so she can demonstrate techniques on them), and other expenses.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 26, 2016)

dcsma said:


> Just curious here and to see what everyone has to say from experience or not on the Tony Blauers S.P.E.A.R. system?? Worth the $200 for a 8 hour seminar?


 

My main concern is the short amount of experience that the woman has. Then again, you don't know what she did in that year and a half. Maybe she got in real street fights every day and really knows her stuff?


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## Justin Chang (Sep 26, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> My main concern is the short amount of experience that the woman has. Then again, you don't know what she did in that year and a half. Maybe she got in real street fights every day and really knows her stuff?


I would think if she got in real street fights every day then her self defense skills suck, isn't the point to AVOID those encounters?


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## wingchun100 (Sep 26, 2016)

Justin Chang said:


> I would think if she got in real street fights every day then her self defense skills suck, isn't the point to AVOID those encounters?


 
Okay, here we go with semantics.

When MOST people think "self-defense," they think of the physical techniques that you use to repel an attack. And not for nothing, but I doubt she was hosting an 8-hour seminar on how to de-escalate a situation. People don't shell out that much money to watch someone teach them how to talk an attacker down.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 26, 2016)

PS: If she got into street fights where she was handing everyone she encountered their butts...then no, her self-defense skills DON'T suck. (It would be highly unlikely that she was always the victor, but then again...the likelihood that she got into a ton of street fights was a silly notion in and of itself. I was being sarcastic.)


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## Justin Chang (Sep 26, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Okay, here we go with semantics.
> 
> When MOST people think "self-defense," they think of the physical techniques that you use to repel an attack. And not for nothing, but I doubt she was hosting an 8-hour seminar on how to de-escalate a situation. People don't shell out that much money to watch someone teach them how to talk an attacker down.



To me this is one of the largest shortcommings in self-defense.  When you go to a seminar or if you go to martial arts classes they simply say "if you have no other choice" then the rest of the entire class is physical techniques, why not train in deesculation? Why not teach avoidance techniques? Why not show awareness drills?  In my not so humble opinion if your self-defense is lacking in those areas and is purely physical then yes your self-defense sucks.  Also I would add that legally you would probably not be the victor either.  I understand that you may have been kidding around, but my point is just as valid and I do not believe is argumenting symantics.  People signing up for a self-defense class want to not be attacked on the street, giving them the tools to never even be in that situation in the first place should be most important.  When all those fail then you have your physical techniques.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 26, 2016)

The OP's question was about our opinions on a "fighting system," not on a "de-escalation system." Therefore, unless the woman with 1.5 years of experience has been in a lot of fights for that short amount of time, I was advising him to steer clear.


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## drop bear (Sep 26, 2016)

Justin Chang said:


> To me this is one of the largest shortcommings in self-defense.  When you go to a seminar or if you go to martial arts classes they simply say "if you have no other choice" then the rest of the entire class is physical techniques, why not train in deesculation? Why not teach avoidance techniques? Why not show awareness drills?  In my not so humble opinion if your self-defense is lacking in those areas and is purely physical then yes your self-defense sucks.  Also I would add that legally you would probably not be the victor either.  I understand that you may have been kidding around, but my point is just as valid and I do not believe is argumenting symantics.  People signing up for a self-defense class want to not be attacked on the street, giving them the tools to never even be in that situation in the first place should be most important.  When all those fail then you have your physical techniques.



Everybody is pretty terrible at teaching it because there is no real cohesive system for it. You cant train it very easily. You dont know if any of it works past very basic ideas like dont be a duchebag. So the instructors have no resources to develope a decent program. The best you get is someone who has read verbal Judo. And is therefore an expert.

And I am not paying someone to tell me to try to not get into fights. I can do that on my own.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 26, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Everybody is pretty terrible at teaching it because there is no real cohesive system for it. You cant train it very easily. You dont know if any of it works past very basic ideas like dont be a duchebag. So the instructors have no resources to develope a decent program. The best you get is someone who has read verbal Judo. And is therefore an expert.
> 
> And I am not paying someone to tell me to try to not get into fights. I can do that on my own.


 
Honestly, it is also hard to tell if the punches, kicks and grappling that we train will work until it happens under pressure. However, as you said, no one would pay someone to tell you to avoid fights. We pay to learn what to do once the fists are being thrown.


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## drop bear (Sep 26, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Honestly, it is also hard to tell if the punches, kicks and grappling that we train will work until it happens under pressure. However, as you said, no one would pay someone to tell you to avoid fights. We pay to learn what to do once the fists are being thrown.



It is easier to tell with fighting because you punch kick and grapple under pressure in training.  You see it work or not work.

You don't really competitively train talking. The best you get is pretending to deescalate. But is has no real effect on the outcome.

If you look at sales. The take their talking techniques. Apply them. Succeed or fail. Then refine those techniques. Then you pay the big money to a guy with the proven track record.

Real skills.

The martial arts version is like banging two rocks together.


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## Juany118 (Sep 26, 2016)

Justin Chang said:


> I would think if she got in real street fights every day then her self defense skills suck, isn't the point to AVOID those encounters?


It depends.  It depends on her career and what she means by fights.  I use certain martial arts techniques almost everyday (locks and such), and then less often but still regularly, strikes and takedowns due to my career.  I then use to tactics, mindset etc taught in these systems every day.  Some careers, LEO, Corrections, etc mean that you may simply not have the option to avoid conflict.  If I am not mistaken the "train the trainer" for this particular system is only available to active LEO and Corrections.

Also these systems, in total, also use "target hardening" (proper use of observation, keeping in my tactical considerations etc) to try an avoid the situation from becoming a fight.  Now whether the instructor here will go over those skills in a seminar, that is the bigger question.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> My main concern is the short amount of experience that the woman has. Then again, you don't know what she did in that year and a half. Maybe she got in real street fights every day and really knows her stuff?


If she gets into street fights on a regular basis (to say nothing of "every day"), she has very poor judgment, and isn't someone I want to learn anything from. Not even physical fighting skills.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2016)

Justin Chang said:


> To me this is one of the largest shortcommings in self-defense.  When you go to a seminar or if you go to martial arts classes they simply say "if you have no other choice" then the rest of the entire class is physical techniques, why not train in deesculation? Why not teach avoidance techniques? Why not show awareness drills?  In my not so humble opinion if your self-defense is lacking in those areas and is purely physical then yes your self-defense sucks.  Also I would add that legally you would probably not be the victor either.  I understand that you may have been kidding around, but my point is just as valid and I do not believe is argumenting symantics.  People signing up for a self-defense class want to not be attacked on the street, giving them the tools to never even be in that situation in the first place should be most important.  When all those fail then you have your physical techniques.


One issue with evaluating classes on these is that most of those skills don't require the in-school practice levels that physical skills require. If I spent even half of my time teaching those skills, I'd be over-teaching them. Many self-defense instructors do teach some or all of those topics. Many of us could do more (myself included - I'm in the middle of re-working parts of my curriculum to that end).


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## wingchun100 (Sep 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> If she gets into street fights on a regular basis (to say nothing of "every day"), she has very poor judgment, and isn't someone I want to learn anything from. Not even physical fighting skills.


 
I posed that question as a joke. I was trying to come up with something that might explain how someone with only a year and a half of experience could be qualified to teach ANYTHING. The only thing I could come up with is if she packed a lot of real-world application into that short amount of time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> The OP's question was about our opinions on a "fighting system," not on a "de-escalation system." Therefore, unless the woman with 1.5 years of experience has been in a lot of fights for that short amount of time, I was advising him to steer clear.


We don't know what her prior experience is. If she has some effective training and experience prior to that, including techniques and principles that align with this system, then a year and a half is perhaps sufficient for her to be able to transmit the key elements.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It is easier to tell with fighting because you punch kick and grapple under pressure in training.  You see it work or not work.
> 
> You don't really competitively train talking. The best you get is pretending to deescalate. But is has no real effect on the outcome.
> 
> ...


This is a big part of the problem for teaching these things. No matter how hard we try, we simply cannot accurately simulate in a controlled environment how these work (or don't). The techniques that work depend upon activating and bypassing parts of the brain, cognitive processes, and such. Since the brain we'd expect to deal with (in cases where de-escalation applies) would be under the control of the limbic system (emotional hijacking), we'd have to figure out how to get a student totally pissed off and then use the de-escalation techniques to try to avoid them hitting us. As you said, not really an option.

We don't, however, have to depend only upon sources like Verbal Judo. Psychologists study these exact problems for us, so we can draw on what they've learned. Their findings will draw from controlled environments (lab experiments) and reviews of real-life scenarios. They can give us more than a guess as to what is likely to work. I'm actually working on a review of the research in these areas, looking for material to use in teaching about cues, de-escalation, exiting a physical confrontation (what I refer to as "late de-escalation"), etc.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> It depends.  It depends on her career and what she means by fights.  I use certain martial arts techniques almost everyday (locks and such), and then less often but still regularly, strikes and takedowns due to my career.  I then use to tactics, mindset etc taught in these systems every day.  Some careers, LEO, Corrections, etc mean that you may simply not have the option to avoid conflict.  If I am not mistaken the "train the trainer" for this particular system is only available to active LEO and Corrections.
> 
> Also these systems, in total, also use "target hardening" (proper use of observation, keeping in my tactical considerations etc) to try an avoid the situation from becoming a fight.  Now whether the instructor here will go over those skills in a seminar, that is the bigger question.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


This is a reasonable expectation. Even LEO's and bouncers don't normally actually get into fights every day - meaning you probably don't get someone actually attacking every day, so much as you get someone resisting you (which is why the locks come into play so often).


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## Justin Chang (Sep 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> One issue with evaluating classes on these is that most of those skills don't require the in-school practice levels that physical skills require. If I spent even half of my time teaching those skills, I'd be over-teaching them. Many self-defense instructors do teach some or all of those topics. Many of us could do more (myself included - I'm in the middle of re-working parts of my curriculum to that end).



I agree you wouldn't be spending an entire seminar on these issues but in my experience they have been either neglected completely or just glossed over especially in regular martial arts schools. In my experience they never taught any deesculation techniques, verbal Judo, awreness drills, etc. in martial arts training.  The only place where I received deesculation training was in the Guardian Angels, even as a security guard they don't teach you any deesculation which is pretty sad.


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## Justin Chang (Sep 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I'm actually working on a review of the research in these areas, looking for material to use in teaching about cues, de-escalation, exiting a physical confrontation (what I refer to as "late de-escalation"), etc.



Once you finish your review I would love to read it!


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## Justin Chang (Sep 30, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I posed that question as a joke. I was trying to come up with something that might explain how someone with only a year and a half of experience could be qualified to teach ANYTHING. The only thing I could come up with is if she packed a lot of real-world application into that short amount of time.



Someone else mentioned earlier that perhaps the train the trainer course was only available for LEOs so perhaps she only had a year and a half experience in SPEAR but years of law enforcement exerience prior, who knows?


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## wingchun100 (Sep 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> We don't know what her prior experience is. If she has some effective training and experience prior to that, including techniques and principles that align with this system, then a year and a half is perhaps sufficient for her to be able to transmit the key elements.


 

Right, but this particular response was a follow-up to something a previous poster had said where he was criticizing these kinds of seminars for always being about the physical techniques rather than de-escalation,. My point was simply that the OP asked specifically about the fighting system.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 30, 2016)

Justin Chang said:


> Someone else mentioned earlier that perhaps the train the trainer course was only available for LEOs so perhaps she only had a year and a half experience in SPEAR but years of law enforcement exerience prior, who knows?


 

Yeah, good point.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2016)

Justin Chang said:


> Once you finish your review I would love to read it!


It won't be terribly organized, but I'll be happy to share what I find.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 4, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It won't be terribly organized, but I'll be happy to share what I find.


 
I would like to see it, organized or not.


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