# Blade system in Modern Arnis ?



## Black Grass (Dec 31, 2001)

I posted earlier about there not being a blade system in Modern Arnis, at least taught at the seminar/camp level. Some poeple have said that I am mistake and point to the fact that Kelly Worden teaches "Modern Arnis" blade at Fort Bragg. I also know that Renegade (Tim Hartman) has a blade system.

I am willing to concede I may be wrong, but I guess the real question is 'there a blade system as taught by the Prof.'  or were they extrapolated from the teachings of the Prof.?

Now I know the Prof. taught blade defence both armed and unarmed. But what  I mean by blade system (specifically short blade dagger/knife)  is 'blade strategy and tactics' either in a dueling or combat situation. All thoughts welcomed.


Happy New Year,

Black Grass


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## arnisador (Dec 31, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Black Grass _
> *Now I know the Prof. taught blade defence both armed and unarmed. But what  I mean by blade system (specifically short blade dagger/knife)  is 'blade strategy and tactics' either in a dueling or combat situation. *



I'm not sure that I truly understand the distinction you are making, but I will answer based on my Modern Arnis experience: Certainly the knife was taught. It was part of espada y daga (which was meant to teach how to use a short and long weapon simultaneously at least as much as it was meant to teach how to literally use a sword and dagger together), it was part of the emphasis that the motions are always the same and its the angles that matter and so it was used with the 12 strikes (offensive) and their counters (defensive) and one would practice all combinations (empty hand vs. knife, knife vs. stick, knife vs. knife, stick vs. knife, etc.). It was used in flow exercises, tulok/tusok, and other drills.

However--and I think this may be your distinction--I don't recall being taught strategy skills for a knife fight or for dueling the way the Filipinos dueled with sticks. Of course, even at that I thought the Professor talked about the old stick-fighting days but didn't really emphasize or really teach the strategies in such duels used beyond using up-and-down or some similar simple motion to defang the snake. If this is what you mean by _system_, it was never emphasized but one could eek out nuggets here and there.

I think it's fair to say that the Professor emphasized the baston even though he knew and taught other weapons. I think this was intentional.


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## Don Rearic (Dec 31, 2001)

The angles and the footwork tend to be the same. Some Instructors will sidestep that by saying, "You can find a stick anywhere!" Which I have yet to see a bunch of sticks lying on the ground on a city street... Or, they will say, "When you learn the stick, you learn the knife." That is true, to a degree, but there is even more. I've seen adherents to that principle go from a stick to a training knife and hit with the flat of the blade instead of the edge...no training in edge orientation...that should be a focus.

Some older fellers will have you use a stick as if it were a sword, or they will use flat sticks to have the constant index of having an _edge._

What you can pull from is, say you want to learn how to use a knife in reverse grip...

Any hooking or punyo shots with the butt of a stick with some modification for shorter length of weapon..._can_ become reverse grip knife movements.

That's all an oversimplification, of course...


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## Guro Harold (Dec 31, 2001)

You guys have not mention another obvious Modern Arnis blade master.  But I am not opening that can of worms, but I will give the initials of BF.


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## Don Rearic (Dec 31, 2001)

Oh boy...


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## Mao (Dec 31, 2001)

What is bf? Butt face? Can someone clarify. 
 Please excuse me. I seem to have had an immature moment. 

Palusut, you started this. You made me do it.


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## Bob (Dec 31, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Black Grass _
> *I posted earlier about there not being a blade system in Modern Arnis, at least taught at the seminar/camp level. Some poeple have said that I am mistake and point to the fact that Kelly Worden teaches "Modern Arnis" blade at Fort Bragg. I also know that Renegade (Tim Hartman) has a blade system.
> 
> I am willing to concede I may be wrong, but I guess the real question is 'there a blade system as taught by the Prof.'  or were they extrapolated from the teachings of the Prof.?
> ...



In regards to Datu Worden and his blade work, I don't think the Professor actually taught him actual knive fighting. I do know like you and Mr. Arnisidor had mentioned, Datu had learned from the Professor a series of knive disarms that started him on his way to develop and study knive fighting more in depth. 
Datu Wordens knive work is based off the stick lines and patterns of modern arnis. In his videos he shows the transition from stick, sword, espada, etc. into a clip it, or small straight blade. So I guess it would be safe to say is the Professor gave him the knive seed and Datu Worden made it grow..........  I hope this adds a little light into your question....
Bob


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## Icepick (Jan 4, 2002)

Black Grass -

From my pov, your assessment is pretty accurate.  However, Arnisador was training with the Prof. before I ever dreamed of it, and I've heard the Remy did less and less knife as time went on.

Moo -  you make me laugh!


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## Bob (Jan 4, 2002)

I inquired with Datu Worden this morning about the Professor teaching an actual knife fighting system, and he told me that yes he did, but to only the people who showed an intense interest in it. Datu Worden mentioned that he had displayed a huge interest to the Professor and so over time the Professor showed him how the stick translated into a single and double knife system. So Datu Worden told me that, yes there is and was a knife system inside modern Arnis but for whatever the reason was the Professor did not popularize it.............. 
I hope this helps
Bob


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## Bob (Jan 4, 2002)

Just for general knowledge for the knife collectors of the group, Datu Worden designed and made a prototype knife for the Professor. As a matter of fact the day before the Professors passing he had given Datu Worden his blessings on the prototype and to produce it. Datu Worden said that he is working on finding a quality custom knife makers in order to produce the knife....
I thought it was something to look forward to, and wanted to pass the knowledge on............
Thanks
Bob


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jan 4, 2002)

I think that you got your dates mixed up. 4 days before Remy died, he was not able to talk, and 2 weeks prior to his passing I visited him at which time he was awake for about 10 minutes a day.

I had planned on talking business with him during that trip. After seeing what condition he was, I realized the *ONLY* thing that he was capable of understanding was telling him that I loved him and wished him peace. 

If there are any questions on his condition during my visit, people could check with Paul Dawdy (one of the Canadian WMAA members) who was with me on the trip.

There have been several such claims of endorsement by Remy during his final days. If these were claimed to be after August 16th, the only thing I would say is that I can't believe it. I saw him, talked to him & held his hand for hours. There was no way in h#ll he could have made any such endorsements. 

Most likely in the case of Worden, the dates are mistaken. Others I might go as far as saying that people are lying!




 :soapbox:


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## arnisador (Jan 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *I think that you got your dates mixed up. 4 days before Remy died, he was not able to talk, and 2 weeks prior to his passing I visited him at which time he was awake for about 10 minutes a day.*



Perhaps zenman could also shed some light on this; in his post on page http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=497&perpage=15&pagenumber=6 (postid 4292) he states that:



> There is an allusion in this list that Professor may not have been fully mentally competent during those last few months. Nothing could be further from the truth. While his strength and mobility were stolen by his illness, his mind was still sharp and he was strategizing until the end. In my opinion, right up until the last two weeks or so I do not believe Professor thought there would be an end.



It's not perfectly clear to me whether or not zenman means that the Professor was less coherent during those last two weeks or only that the Professor fully realized he would not be recovering at that point.



> *
> There have been several such claims of endorsement by Remy during his final days. If these were claimed to be after August 16th, the only thing I would say is that I can't believe it. I saw him, talked to him & held his hand for hours. There was no way in h#ll he could have made any such endorsements.*



This is a difficult and sensitive matter. A sick person may well be in full possession of their faculties and it is unfair and inappropriate to not treat them as a competent adult if indeed they are so but the depression and feeling of weakness are potent factors that must also be included. One of Mr. Worden's students has posted a note from Mr. Worden to the effect that the Professor didn't feel he could fully enforce his wishes while he was ill:



> in many ways, the words, "over a barrel and now I am very ill... I do not want to start trouble while I am sick..." were spoken to me more than once.... Remy never recovered, so he could not set things any straighter than what unfolded...



While this was with respect to one particular incident, it goes to the point that the Professor felt unable to stop people and unable to keep people from attributing to him things he did not say or authorize. Add that in to the effects of hsi disease and treatment, and his isolation, and I think that any statement concerning what he authorized after his illness must be viewed very carefully. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, as they say, and if what was said above is true of Mr. Delaney, the Professor's closest protege before his illness struck, then we must allow the possibility that the same is true of any other endorsement or decision given by the Professor during this time frame. If he was unwilling to counter or contradict Mr. Delaney, as has been asserted, then the same may well have been true for any other person. Any alleged endorsement, approval, etc. during that time is automatically suspect in light of Mr. Worden's comments.

This is not to say that all such endorsements must be false! I cannot imagine the Professor failing to give his blessings to Mr. Worden's knife and its production, and I suspect that Mr. Hartman is correct that the statement "the day before" by Bob is either not literally correct, or else it is correct and the Professor was awake and coherent long enough to see and understand this matter. It's so non-controversial--it's something of an honour to be asked for such blessings after all--that I cannot doubt that the Professor assented. My point is that we have so many competing claims from that time period--witness the contradictory claims of the two IMAFs and MARPPIO--and Mr. Worden's inside information concerning the Professor's state of mind and his unwillingness or inability  to contradict statements with which he disagreed and actions of which he disapproved that we must judge carefully any claim that comes from that time.

This is the main reason I resist believing all that has been said about Mr. Delaney: Before his illness it was apparent through the Professor's _actions_ and _words_ that he thought very highly of Mr. Delaney and that he was a high-placed individual and a possible successor. After the illness struck, as indicated, all claims must be carefully considered.


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## Bob (Jan 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *I think that you got your dates mixed up]
> 
> Sir, I don't think I did, but I will double check my facts with Datu Worden.
> ...


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## arnisador (Jan 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bob _
> *I do recall numerous other people stating the Professor was quite sharp in his thinking, maybe sadly enough the day you were there, he wasn't. *



Yes, many have said he remained sharp until the end, though as Mr. Worden has pointed out there is a difference between being sharp and being able to use that sharpness. Evidently the Professor did not always feel he could use it--that he could disagree with people even if he wanted to do so. This is sad but not surprising for an active person who is suddenly so dependent on so many others.



> *Sir, thank you for giving Datu Worden the benefit of the doubt in regarding this post. *



Speaking for myself I have no doubt that this situation is as you described it except possibly for the exact date--and if you say that that is also as you originally stated I will believe that. The bigger issue is not Mr. Worden's statement concerning the production of the knife but rather Mr. Delaney's claims of being a or the Grandmaster compared to Dr. Schea's organization's claim that he was to be an assistant to Dr. Schea compared to Dr. Presas' claim that the Presas siblings were asked to be the true heirs of Modern Arnis...all claim the Professor's blessing. What Mr. Worden's comments show is that *they may all have been partially right*, if they took what the Professor _did_ say, misunderstood or exaggerated it slightly, and then the Professor's unwillingness to be confrontational left them thinking or able to claim that they were right.

Such enthusiasm would help explain the current situation without any need to ascribe to Mr. Delaney anything more than overzealousness--he might have gone too far from good intentions and not have been corrected. What a difficult situation.


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## Bob (Jan 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *I think that you got your dates mixed up. 4 days before Remy died, he was not able to talk, and 2 weeks prior to his passing I visited him at which time he was awake for about 10 minutes a day.]
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bob (Jan 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jan 4, 2002)

Like I said, I didn't think Mr. Worden would do that, although I do think some people have. I think what is good that I made my comment and we didn't end up in a flame war. It's good to see different factions of the Modern Arnis world getting along! 

I have no doubt that there will be heated debates in the future, but I feel that we will agree to disagree and not take it personal. Hopefully I'll get to see some of you Natural Spirit guys when I'm teaching in Portland in February!

:asian:


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## Don Rearic (Jan 4, 2002)

Hey Guys,

There is an old saying, "Death is easy, it's living that's hard."

And there is more than a little truth to that! Look at your needs, then examine your wants. For yourself and your family. Life is harder than petrified woodpecker lips, Gents...make no mistake.

Sometimes, you take 2 steps forward and get knocked 5 steps back, that's Life. Sometimes, it's a task...

My Dad died at home when I was but a young punk. Back in 1982. Cancer...certainly not pretty for a proud Marine to be treated as an infant in the last week. 

Lung removal in 1980, cobalt treatments, one year of remission, then it was metastasized, no hope whatsoever. In the end, he had it in his bones, his blood and in his brain.

What I want to say is, when you are that weakened, the mind can be sharp as a razor. But that can be from minute to minute, day to day...hour to hour. You name it. One moment someone might not know their name and the next moment...as if some portion of the brain were stimulated, memories of childhood or other fond [or sadly, terrible] memories might pour out.

My Dad was so blasted out of his mind on Dolophine and Dilaudid, yet...up until the last three days...he was just a weakened man. Definitely ready to go...yet...not ready to go. You could see it in him. Indecision. 

And alot of it is indeed up to them. 

In the last three days, it was more the drugs than the dying that was making him comatose. Today, we have hospice and the amounts of medication are much more conducive to lucidity right up to the end.

Friend of mine died two years ago, almost the same set of circumstances as my Dad, started as lung cancer, but it was advanced and took him in about three months. He was entirely of sound mind up until the time he breathed his last breath. 

"Tell my Son I love him..." And he was gone.

What I am trying to say is...it is entirely possible that everyone that visited Professor, that every one of them is telling the truth as they experienced it. 

People in that condition have good minutes, bad minutes, hours, days...sometimes a whole week can be crappy for them. 

So...my God...what a sad thing to have to relate. Whew. The important thing to remember throughout all of this is, he is no longer suffering and through the sadness if that is the only positive that can be gained. People should take that. It does not matter if you believe in an Afterlife [I do, I just don't know what is there yet, I ain't visited!] or not, he suffers no more.

Very sad Guys. But please...don't doubt these sorts of things.


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## arnisador (Jan 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Don Rearic _
> *
> What I am trying to say is...it is entirely possible that everyone that visited Professor, that every one of them is telling the truth as they experienced it.
> 
> People in that condition have good minutes, bad minutes, hours, days...sometimes a whole week can be crappy for them.*



You've obviously paid quite a price to come by this wisdom. Your detailed description touched me. Yes, I think you're exactly right. Every one of them may well be telling the truth.


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## Mao (Jan 5, 2002)

Given what I do "for a living", I am used to dealing with "facts".  Professionally, I THINK in factual terms.  Personally, I FEEL those facts. Usually, I try to relate my experiences with The Prof. factually. With certain people I will relate the facts with feeling. My point is that I agree that different people will experience things, as well as relate them, differently.  I think that one should look at the big picture and consider their own experiences to arrive at what is believable for them, if they cannot go directly to an original source.
  On another note, I was fortunate enough to fondle, thats right, fondle Kelly Wordens prototype of the Presas knife. SAWEET!! It is made out of damascus and has a great profile. My lovely wife even held it! Thats saying something since she doesn't particularly share my enthusiam for edged weapons, or pieces of art as I call some of my collection. I brought a nice piece home one day and was playing with it in our bedroom. My wife enters and says "Your a freak". Gotta love her. I asked her to hold my piece and that is when she shared with me that she thinks that they are a phalic symbol. I think everyone should get in touch with their piece.    

  Anyway, I will be in line when Kellys knife goes into production.


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## zenman (Jan 6, 2002)

I was there when Datu Kelly Worden showed his first prototype of the Presas Knife to the Professor.  This time was not the day before the Professor died, it was in late July, about the 27th or 28th.  Datu Worden brought several knives for Professor to look at, and Professor showed an intense interest in the blades in fact we had trouble getting the knives back from him he did not want to let them go!  Once Datu Worden had shown Professor the other knives he had designed, he showed him the knife he had designed especially for him.  The Professor was visibly moved and stated he was not worthy of this honor and a joke followed which I am not a liberty to discuss.  Datu Worden told Professor about the knife and how he wanted to produce it and name it after him.  He gave his blessing at this time.  Another person was in the room that, I could not remember I will see if their name is in my journal somewhere I believe it was a man named Mike Chen.  

The Presas knife, in the forum I saw it and as shown and described to the Professor had the footwork patterns of Modern Arnis incorporated in the back of the blade. I also had a special area in the tang right below the hilt for using the knife for trapping and applying an enormous amount of pain to your opponent (I was the demo for this move so I am quite familiar with the pain this area of the knife can produce).  I do not remember if the steel of the prototype was Damascus or not but I think the production model may be.

By the way, we had Lunch with the Professor that day in the Dining room and he fed himself, I had to help him with his drink when the glass was full, other than this he looked as good as I had seen him the numerous times I was there.  About the Professors mental state during this time, I believe he was tired and fatigue set in quickly but his mind was active.  The professor would have a tendency to play opossum when certain people were around which was kind of funny because we all thought he was asleep and then he would open one eye when he thought they were gone and very quietly ask if the had gone.  He would do the same thing when others would call at various times he would feign fatigue and once the caller was dispatched he would pop up an start asking questions and talking about his plans.  Again, his energy was limited but he also liked to use this as an excuse at times.  Furthermore, that Sunday before I left Datu Worden, I walked in, and the Professor was sitting in his Recliner and Mike Chen was there with him.  He wanted me to work on his legs and he got up on his own and moved to his bed with Mr. Chen holding his arm, so the Professor still had strength at this time though it was limited.  When I would work the Professors hands, he would also try to get me into a finger lock at times.  Overall, I think many people underestimated the Professor during this time.  

The last visit to Professor made by Datu Worden was with Pappy Geo so maybe he has some insight as to what occurred at that time.


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