# Righteous indignation... wish me luck.



## Allen a.k.a. Destroyer (Nov 7, 2009)

I'm about to go to a local "open" tournament, though it will be filled primarily with Karate people where I am just a little 1st degree in Taekwondo. I already know from some past experience there may be some biased judging going on... I'm pushing intensity and going for the win.

Broken hand, no sleep, here I go regardless. One of my concerns I voiced to one of my instructors... Will they take points off because I can't make a complete fist in my form? (I have a very broken "pinky" finger (beautiful spiral fracture). Doctor said to keep it in the splint during the day for another month, but I can start working range of motion in the evenings. If you're the praying type, please do that I may get a good fist again.)

Just in case there are some stubborn old fools that won't take into account a splint and wrapped hand... I'm bringing an image of my xray as well (had to take it with a scanner, left it open, put a sheet of paper on top to diffuse the light, and set up several lamps to shine light on the "back" of the xray so it would show up). If they want to score me low for all that I'm never going to compete in their forms division again. I'll just make it a point to dominate sparring with my strikes and weapons divisions once my hand is back in shape. I hate when people slight others over things reasonable people would understand. Please forgive me if this is turning into a rant... :lol:

The hand is going to be fine for a little form. I'm doing Koon Ga Hyung (spelling? pronounciation? lol) if you know that. It seems like it has a strong Japanese influence to it, and there are no kicks. It's the closest thing I have to a Karate style form... and it's my second degree form... so it should be good for this tournament.

Anyone here ever get slighted in competition because of an injury even after warning the judges beforehand...? 

Wish me luck, I'll see how it goes and post later on. 
Two words come to mind: *Righteous indignation*. That's today's fuel. I have seen too much biased judging in my few years as a serious martial artist. If I see anything untoward I'm dropping everything and getting the tournament director involved. It's a take no $%&# kind of day.

Don't get me wrong though. I will play it cool and have some fun.  Mentor some kids, console some that lose their matches if needed... and be a heck of a role model today. I earned my belt. No worries there.

I'm taking a small crack team from my primary Master's school, we're taking some gold home today. "Believe it!"-Naruto :lol: I don't even watch that show, I just like the character's attitude. :lol:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 7, 2009)

Good luck!

One thing I would add is not to go in with a chip on your shoulder.  If you think there will be bad judging then more than likely you will come away with that impression.  Instead go to the tournament, compete and have and expect a good time.  Hopefully then you will!


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## Allen a.k.a. Destroyer (Nov 7, 2009)

Right. I'll try to keep my head clear and have some fun. I just don't want any biased action (or inaction) going on. I try to be as fair as possible. Have to call what I see. Never stand still when judging sparring (unless you have enough people to circle the ring, lol).


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2009)

I'm curious to know why you picked a kata with no kicks in and why you think it's the closest to a Japanese kata you've got? Can you post up a video of it at all?
 Most Japanese katas I know have kicks in especially the 'higher grade' ones. In my experience with TSD and Wado Ryu I've found that the TSD hyungs while following the same moves as the Wado katas are less technical and have less difficulty in them,there's less subtlety in TSD, something that may reflect in marking.


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## Omar B (Nov 7, 2009)

Don't go in with a chip on your shoulder man.  What if you don't get a point, is it boas or is it your performance that is lacking?  Nobody ever wants to see the faults in themselves.  There's a reason we have seniors, judges, teachers, it's because they have gone before and know what to look for.


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## Nolerama (Nov 7, 2009)

video and post!


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## Allen a.k.a. Destroyer (Nov 8, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'm curious to know why you picked a kata with no kicks in and why you think it's the closest to a Japanese kata you've got?


Well... My last time at the very same tournament... they weren't calling my kicks in sparring. My jumping reverse punch they loved last time, but not my kicks. Go figure... There were maybe... 0 other tkd style judges there. A couple ICHF/ITA tkd people came from out of town, but I didn't see them judging. Plenty of tkd schools in the area (a twin city kinda place here) but no one from my usual tournament circuit here for the karate tournament. The form without kicks is also my highest form right now. I'll be testing with it in August for second if all goes well. I like it, it's a good form, but no kicks.

As I was watching my competition go, I was actually a little nervous at first. Karate people have some great punches in their forms, and most of the competitors looked quite good. I wasn't worried about maybe 1 or 2 of the 9 or 10 that were in my division. But as it got closer to my turn I started to doubt my choice of form... until I saw an xma style do the very same form as my 1st degree form... I thought about doing the same form only better for a moment until I prayed about it for a second. No, stick to the plan... 

I went up and poured every ounce of intensity I could muster into the form: no sleep, waiting nine hours to do anything with the stupid grappler divisions playing on the ground all day, the annoyances in life like the oil techs that ruined my truck's engine when I couldn't change the oil myself with this broken hand... and more, all poured into my form. I added lots of kiyaps throughout lol, emphasized some blocks as tension blocks as well as some crazy looks and facial expressions lol... but my form was pretty solid. A couple of slip ups with my feet like adjusting the rotation of the foot in the split second it touched the ground... and I actually left out the next to last move, lol... I was too busy thinking intensity, and forgot to throw that punch-block. I didn't show my mistake on my face however, and just drew my breath for a big finish into the last move. Win. I felt good about it... Especially when they started calling out those 9.83, 9.87, and 9.91s etc. lol If I had gotten any sleep the previous night I may have been first or second instead of a couple slip ups. Or maybe I would have been worse with sleep? lol Sleep is for the weak! lol jk

Fortunately, they didn't seem to count off for the splint wrapped finger that stuck out throughout the form's blocks. I decided not to show them the xray picture. Why waste everyone's time with it? Just get the form done. I think I did catch a judge or two looking at it kinda funny early in the form though, lol.

As for a video... I don't know that anyone recorded it. Sorry people, while I do have a fan club of sorts at the school, no one came to record it. It was kind of last minute... I was able to grab a couple good mid rank students to come with me, but no parents came to watch or record. It really was a last minute decision to go, lol. "Hey you guys wanna go to tournament tomorrow?" lol This wasn't one the whole school was going to, but Master ok'd me to take a couple of guys if they wanted to go... so I grabbed a couple of our promising blue belts. They did pretty well actually. Except for an issue or two with control (I know what to work on this week...) they fought well. One guy has some great kicks, but he was getting too much face contact and swinging through his punches (I didn't teach him this, he was just going too hard). He managed to win the first match, but on his second they remembered him and stopped calling some of his techniques because of it (especially a little bit of face contact the other guy was getting on him, lol). I understand that, he didn't at the time, but he remained calm about it as I explained to him judges do have a memory too. The other guy froze for the last point when a kungfu style guy he was sparring... the kungfu guy jumped up (stepping on his leg) and punched him in the head to finish the match. It was a tournament to 3 points. He lost that match 2-3. Not bad, but a good front side kick or straight punch before he closed the distance would've been better, lol.

However... he did tie for first in his weapons division. =) I have been teaching him a sai form for a good while and encouraged him to bring them to this tournament, as it is a weapon I've seen the karate students perform. Oh, by the way, I taught him from a video... (In your face people that say it shouldn't be done! lol jk =) But seriously, good detail oriented instruction, a good video, and good intuition about weapons helped me teach him that. One thing I didn't like about his weapon division, though... he said it was ok... but they flipped a coin for the tie breaker. Usually, I see the forms go again then they pick a winner... it gives the two a chance to put a little more something in the form, or correct a small mistake they may have made, to put themselves on top. Strange.

Thanks for the support! :asian:


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## ATC (Nov 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'm curious to know why you picked a kata with no kicks in and why you think it's the closest to a Japanese kata you've got? Can you post up a video of it at all?
> Most Japanese katas I know have kicks in especially the 'higher grade' ones. In my experience with TSD and Wado Ryu I've found that the TSD hyungs while following the same moves as the Wado katas are less technical and have less difficulty in them,there's less subtlety in TSD, something that may reflect in marking.


Tez, *Keumgang *and Sipjin in my opinion do resemble the more Japanese traditional type forms. They shows power and have no kicks (well Sipjin has only 3 front kicks, all in a row). The forms demonstrate proper and powerful stances as well as balance. they are nice forms and many people like them. I think Keumgang may be one of the most enjoyable forms to do. Again this is my opinion.

Edit: Allen, almost forgot to give congrats on your win. Congrats!!!


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## Tez3 (Nov 12, 2009)

ATC said:


> Tez, *Keumgang *and Sipjin in my opinion do resemble the more Japanese traditional type forms. They shows power and have no kicks (well Sipjin has only 3 front kicks, all in a row). The forms demonstrate proper and powerful stances as well as balance. they are nice forms and many people like them. I think Keumgang may be one of the most enjoyable forms to do. Again this is my opinion.
> 
> Edit: Allen, almost forgot to give congrats on your win. Congrats!!!


 
Sorry, to my mind Keumgang absolutely TKD, it shouts it lol! 
This is Wado Ryu's Kushanku and Chinto done by the founder of Wado,





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7W3FwdmG1I&feature=related


I'm not a fan of open competitions where all styles patterns/katas/forms are in competition with each other. To my 'karate mind' the other styles are very different from mine and I think it would be really unfair to judge someone else's style. I can appreciate what I'd think is a well done TKD pattern but the nuances and finesse is lost on me so it would be very unfair of me to judge it against karate kata and things like CMA forms of which I really know even less.
Karate has far more stances in it than TKD ( I have done TKD even graded in it) and seems much more involved than TKD (not a criticism!! just an observation!) which makes judging katas/patterns against each other a bit of pointless exercise to my mind. Do the judges have sufficient knowledge of every style the competitors have?


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## ATC (Nov 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not a fan of open competitions where all styles patterns/katas/forms are in competition with each other. To my 'karate mind' the other styles are very different from mine and I think it would be really unfair to judge someone else's style. I can appreciate what I'd think is a well done TKD pattern but the nuances and finesse is lost on me so it would be very unfair of me to judge it against karate kata and things like CMA forms of which I really know even less.
> Karate has far more stances in it than TKD ( I have done TKD even graded in it) and seems much more involved than TKD (not a criticism!! just an observation!) which makes judging katas/patterns against each other a bit of pointless exercise to my mind. Do the judges have sufficient knowledge of every style the competitors have?


There are 4 different types of forms even within TKD. So even when you go to a pure TKD open competition you will see forms that you may not be fimilar with. When judging forms knowing the form is only one point to look for. I have judged forms that I do not know at a few compititions and if I do not know the form I still look for power, flow, confidence, balance, footwork, and proper techinques.


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## jks9199 (Nov 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Sorry, to my mind Keumgang absolutely TKD, it shouts it lol!
> This is Wado Ryu's Kushanku and Chinto done by the founder of Wado,
> 
> 
> ...


Open competitions do have a certain unfairness inherent in them, especially in forms events.  After all, if you get a panel of karate folks judging a group of competitors including TKD, tai chi, a couple of other Chinese styles, and silat, with a few karate people to round out the field -- who do you think has a good chance to do best?

Many judges do try to be fair, though.

(And, of course, there are the events where all the winners are magically members of the sponsoring school and its affiliates...)


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## Tez3 (Nov 12, 2009)

ATC said:


> There are 4 different types of forms even within TKD. So even when you go to a pure TKD open competition you will see forms that you may not be fimilar with. When judging forms knowing the form is only one point to look for. I have judged forms that I do not know at a few compititions and if I do not know the form I still look for power, flow, confidence, balance, footwork, and proper techinques.


 
Whether you knew the form or not you still know the techniques etc if it's TKD, if it weren't and was something completely different such as CMA or karate how can you judge it? In karate would you know whether a move should be in Seishan or Gyakuzuki stance? Front view cat stance or side view cat stance? If you don't know this you can't tell whether the balance is correct or even the power which is why I said it's unfair to judge styles you don't know. Other karate styles are similiar enough that like you with the TKD ones I can judge them without knowing the kata but I can't judge other styles. I can admire them but I won't judge them.
I only entered kata competitions that were for Wado practitioners, team as well. Got a couple of firsts, more seconds, a few thirds and lots of no places lol.


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## ATC (Nov 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Whether you knew the form or not you still know the techniques etc if it's TKD, if it weren't and was something completely different such as CMA or karate how can you judge it? In karate would you know whether a move should be in Seishan or Gyakuzuki stance? Front view cat stance or side view cat stance? If you don't know this you can't tell whether the balance is correct or even the power which is why I said it's unfair to judge styles you don't know. Other karate styles are similiar enough that like you with the TKD ones I can judge them without knowing the kata but I can't judge other styles. I can admire them but I won't judge them.
> I only entered kata competitions that were for Wado practitioners, team as well. Got a couple of firsts, more seconds, a few thirds and lots of no places lol.


I understand what you are saying but what I am saying is that you know when a kick or punch looks bad. You know when balance is a problem. You can tell the difference of lack of power vs. a soft intentional movement. You can see expression on a face when there is a lack of confidence. I could go on but I hope you understand what I am talking about.

I understand that I may not know if you should be doing a back stance vs. a front stance. I may not know if you are blocking mid, low or high. I may not know if you need to be striking with knife, spear, fist or whatever. Yes this is one issue and can factor into the overall score. But forms competition is not always about the form itself but more of the techniques performed or seen, especially in open forms. Open forms can even be made up forms if you want to, it is called open after all.


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## ATC (Nov 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Sorry, to my mind Keumgang absolutely TKD, it shouts it lol!
> This is Wado Ryu's Kushanku and Chinto done by the founder of Wado,
> 
> 
> ...


I really did not see much that was too different from the higher or BB TKD forms in those vids. The first one actully reminded me of SipJin. I can see where many of the SipJin moves in the form. I also did not see any stance in any of those forms that arn't in TKD either. As it is well known there is a strong karate influance in TKD.


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## Tez3 (Nov 13, 2009)

ATC said:


> I really did not see much that was too different from the higher or BB TKD forms in those vids. The first one actully reminded me of SipJin. I can see where many of the SipJin moves in the form. I also did not see any stance in any of those forms that arn't in TKD either. As it is well known there is a strong karate influance in TKD.


 

I think there's more than a 'strong influence' of karate in TKD! If I showed you Pinan Shodan however as well s many others there are stances int here than you don't have in TKD.
I find these 'open' competitions more often than not are an excuse to make more money rather than doing it just for the spirit of competition. If it's open there more suckers to pay entry fees than just doing it for your style alone. It's the thing I like about MMA, we pay the fighter to fight, we don't expect them to cough up. We even pay the amateurs their expenses and a percentage of the tickets money they sell, we don't use them.


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## jks9199 (Nov 13, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I think there's more than a 'strong influence' of karate in TKD! If I showed you Pinan Shodan however as well s many others there are stances int here than you don't have in TKD.
> I find these 'open' competitions more often than not are an excuse to make more money rather than doing it just for the spirit of competition. If it's open there more suckers to pay entry fees than just doing it for your style alone. It's the thing I like about MMA, we pay the fighter to fight, we don't expect them to cough up. We even pay the amateurs their expenses and a percentage of the tickets money they sell, we don't use them.


I'm picky -- and thrifty.  There are only a couple open tournaments I'll go to or put my students in.  And they're all about the fellowship and fun -- not the money.  I remember when I was student, going to tournaments, paying the entry fee and being cheated out in the very first fight when the judges just plain refused to see what I was doing... and I won't subject my students to that if I can help it.  (Or going to a tournament where you realize that all the winners have something in common...)


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## ATC (Nov 13, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> ...I find these 'open' competitions more often than not are an excuse to make more money rather than doing it just for the spirit of competition. If it's open there more suckers to pay entry fees than just doing it for your style alone. It's the thing I like about MMA, we pay the fighter to fight, we don't expect them to cough up. We even pay the amateurs their expenses and a percentage of the tickets money they sell, we don't use them.


Well, yes and yes I have to say. No one (unless rich and can just do it) would hold a tournament just for the fun of it. It cost a lot to put on the tournament so you need to at least break even. So the more you have come in the better chance you have of doing that. Why put on a tournament and pay out 25K only to have a few people show up and not even make back the money you put out.

As for MMA and paying fighters, that is great, but more than enough leagues have gone under too. That is why, while you pay them, you don't pay them all that much. Even the big name TV fighters don't get paid all that much compared to other TV sports.

Open tournaments are a win, win type of deal. You get to compete against others you would not normally do so, and the host of the tournament makes a few bucks. Not all that much either. No one is getting rich off of an open tournament. Most times there are more than one person hosting, many times they lose money.


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## Tez3 (Nov 13, 2009)

I know exactly how much it costs to put a tournament on and it's not nearly as much as people think, there is plenty of scope to make a profit. If we can make a profit on MMA show after paying out for everyhting from medics to referees, judges and timekeepers ( they don't do it for free) trust me you can make a fortune on tournaments where you have volunteers and people paying to take part.

I could put a tournament on for a couple of hundred pounds not thousands and make a very good profit.

We don't have MMA leagues her and I'll have you know we pay top rate to our fighters. Having run over 30 MMA shows already I think I may know what I'm talking about. Heres a fight report from our second show from way back (Ian Freeman isn't involved anymore, he was bought out) the American interest is in the headline fight.
http://sfuk.tripod.com/events_04/pridenglory_2.html


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## ATC (Nov 13, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I know exactly how much it costs to put a tournament on and it's not nearly as much as people think, there is plenty of scope to make a profit. If we can make a profit on MMA show after paying out for everyhting from medics to referees, judges and timekeepers ( they don't do it for free) trust me you can make a fortune on tournaments where you have volunteers and people paying to take part.
> 
> I could put a tournament on for a couple of hundred pounds not thousands and make a very good profit.
> 
> ...


Well I don't know about the UK and an MMA event, but I can tell you a few hundred dollars is not going to even rent you out a place for the an open type event, let alone the mats, medics, medals/trophies for each 3rd to 1sts place, computer scoring systems rentals, T-shirts made up for the volunteers, food to feed all the volunteers, PA system rental, money to pay those that don't volunteer (believe it or not many get paid), and other little misc items that cost that add up.

The last tourney we helped put on was a new one and it cost a little over $7,000 USD to put on in a school gym. Not many competitor as it was the 1st one (150 competitors at most). Entry fee was $30.00 USD. They had to drop the coaching pass fees. The cost to watch was $5.00. Most people got in free as they were coaches. There was maybe 300 people in the stands at most. You do the math. They lost money.

The two types of events are not the same. The larger events like The-JKI make money yes. But most of you small local meets don't make that much after it is all said and done.


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## Tez3 (Nov 13, 2009)

ATC said:


> Well I don't know about the UK and an MMA event, but I can tell you a few hundred dollars is not going to even rent you out a place for the an open type event, let alone the mats, medics, medals/trophies for each 3rd to 1sts place, computer scoring systems rentals, T-shirts made up for the volunteers, food to feed all the volunteers, PA system rental, money to pay those that don't volunteer (believe it or not many get paid), and other little misc items that cost that add up.
> 
> The last tourney we helped put on was a new one and it cost a little over $7,000 USD to put on in a school gym. Not many competitor as it was the 1st one (150 competitors at most). Entry fee was $30.00 USD. They had to drop the coaching pass fees. The cost to watch was $5.00. Most people got in free as they were coaches. There was maybe 300 people in the stands at most. You do the math. They lost money.
> 
> The two types of events are not the same. The larger events like The-JKI make money yes. But most of you small local meets don't make that much after it is all said and done.


 
Ah you Yanks, always have to go OTT! here you rent the local leisure centre, you have medals for the first three places and the local St Johns Ambulance volunteers do the medic bit for a donation. Dan grades ref and score and Bobs your uncle an enjoyable time is had by all. PA systems, scoreboard? you're having a larf mate.
 What you're doing is put a professonal show on akin to our MMA shows and we make money at them! Why go overboard with all the professional staging stuff?


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## ATC (Nov 13, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Ah you Yanks, always have to go OTT! here you rent the local leisure centre, you have medals for the first three places and the local St Johns Ambulance volunteers do the medic bit for a donation. Dan grades ref and score and Bobs your uncle an enjoyable time is had by all. PA systems, scoreboard? you're having a larf mate.
> What you're doing is put a professonal show on akin to our MMA shows and we make money at them! Why go overboard with all the professional staging stuff?


No. pro show by any means, just two different animals. These are meets for all belts all levels. If they come they come. If not, you still need to rent the space because you cannot assume they are not coming. The sparring event we are involved in use the electronic scoring system with the triggers and all. You need a PA system to announce instructions to all the competitor across the entire venu. Remember these are bracketed events not 1 on 1 and that is it. So there are 1st, 2nd, and 3rd placing.

Just two different types of events is all.


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## Tez3 (Nov 13, 2009)

ATC said:


> No. pro show by any means, just two different animals. These are meets for all belts all levels. If they come they come. If not, you still need to rent the space because you cannot assume they are not coming. The sparring event we are involved in use the electronic scoring system with the triggers and all. You need a PA system to announce instructions to all the competitor across the entire venu. Remember these are bracketed events not 1 on 1 and that is it. So there are 1st, 2nd, and 3rd placing.
> 
> Just two different types of events is all.


 
I've competed in many karate tournaments in this country and thats what I'm comparing yours to. We had bracketed events, the BJJ comps here do as well as the karate, with as 1-3 places sometimes even fourth place. 
I competed full contact so it was easy to tell if you scored, no need for electronis to tell us it was a hit. The comps I went to were for all grades as well, adults and children, kata and kumite. Believe it or not I do know what I'm talking about!


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## jks9199 (Nov 13, 2009)

There's a balance.  I've been to some really well run, smaller tournaments with no huge master scoreboard.  You do pretty much need a PA -- and even then you have to send a couple of runners around for half the events.  Rent on a facility for the 8 to 10 hours you're likely to need (don't forget set up and tear down) will run you somewhere around $1000 to $2000 -- or more.  Sometimes an extra fee if you need AC running...  You can't forget insurance, either, because almost any facility is going to insist that you have insurance.  Say another $1000 for the day, at a guess.  You see how it starts to run up in cost...  Let's skip the monster trophies that are so common, and let's just have medals or ribbons.  Keep the divisions to a manageable level*... and you're still talking several hundred or more.

Running a tournament runs to the tune of at least a couple thousand in the States, I think... and probably more like seven to ten thousand...  And there just aren't lots of spectator tickets sold in general.  There are only so many friends and families willing to hang around a gym on a Saturday!



*Figure 3 event categories (sparring, empty hand forms, and weapon forms).  Break the youth division up into about 4 or 5 divisions (8 and under, 8-10, 11-13, 13-15, 16-17), and 4 weight classes (light, middle, heavy, super) for fighting.  Maybe 2 or 3 adult age divisions (18 to 35, 36 to 50, 50+).  About 4 or 5 skill levels -- novice (white/gold, 9th -6th kyu ), intermediate(green, 5th to 3rd), advanced (brown, 2nd-1st kyu), black belt, maybe advanced black.  And, of course, mens & womens categories....  Adds up to a lot of medals or trophies or ribbons quick, huh?  I keep hitting something like 144 first place alone, in the youth division!  I'm doing the figuring in my head, so it's very possible I'm not right...  But that'd be 2 (for sex) times 18 (5 youth divisions in 3 events plus an extra 3 for sparring) time 4 (skill levels)...  Somebody who's run these check that, 'cause it seems like a hell of a lot!


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## ATC (Nov 13, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I've competed in many karate tournaments in this country and thats what I'm comparing yours to. We had bracketed events, the BJJ comps here do as well as the karate, with as 1-3 places sometimes even fourth place.
> I competed full contact so it was easy to tell if you scored, no need for electronis to tell us it was a hit. The comps I went to were for all grades as well, adults and children, kata and kumite. Believe it or not I do know what I'm talking about!


Not sure, I could be wrong but I get the feeling that you take everything I say as a challenge. I never said you did not know what you were talking about. I am only stating what I know for the states and I acknowledge that you are doing the same for the UK. I am not trying to prove anything just stating what I have done just as you are. Again I am not directing any thought or care of you knowing or not know what you are talking about. Just contributing to the thread with the knowledge of what it is like and cost to run a non MMA but amature martial arts event here in the states.


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## Tez3 (Nov 13, 2009)

ATC said:


> Not sure, I could be wrong but I get the feeling that you take everything I say as a challenge. I never said you did not know what you were talking about. I am only stating what I know for the states and I acknowledge that you are doing the same for the UK. I am not trying to prove anything just stating what I have done just as you are. Again I am not directing any thought or care of you knowing or not know what you are talking about. Just contributing to the thread with the knowledge of what it is like and cost to run a non MMA but amature martial arts event here in the states.


 

You write everything as a challenge whenever you answer me. 

Your costs are vastly higher than we have to pay for. A leisure centre would charge about £30 an hour, so £300 for ten hours. That includes the use of changing rooms etc. Insurance, everyone has their own or can't compete. However public liability insurance doesn't cost much, about £30-60.
We don't have the big trophy thing here, standard is small trophies and you get them wholesale. We use glass custom ones for the MMA and they don't cost that much! I know how much the karate type cost..far less.


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## ATC (Nov 14, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You write everything as a challenge whenever you answer me...


Hmmm....sorry you feel that way. I assure you I don't.


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