# Boshi/Shito Ken Strikes



## Razor (Aug 14, 2011)

I'm a beginner in Bujinkan, so forgive me if this is a silly question, but what exactly is the point of Boshi Ken strikes as used in techniques like Jumonji No Kamae?

If you can strike Uke in the ribs with your thumb, wouldn't a strike in a more critical area be more appropriate? Is this just to illustrate the movement but not to actually be used for self defence?

I understand that more training will clear up some questions like this, but some clarification now would be appreciated


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## Katsujin-ken (Aug 14, 2011)

Razor said:


> I'm a beginner in Bujinkan, so forgive me if this is a silly question, but what exactly is the point of Boshi Ken strikes as used in techniques like Jumonji No Kamae?
> 
> If you can strike Uke in the ribs with your thumb, wouldn't a strike in a more critical area be more appropriate? Is this just to illustrate the movement but not to actually be used for self defence?
> 
> I understand that more training will clear up some questions like this, but some clarification now would be appreciated



From personal experience, I will say this much: don't underestimate the boshiken.  It's a nasty little strike if executed properly.  My appreciation for boshiken is certainly high after having experienced it at my sensei's hands.  Perhaps you may wish to ask your instructor for a fuller boshiken experience? :uhyeah:


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## Razor (Aug 14, 2011)

Katsujin-ken said:


> From personal experience, I will say this much: don't underestimate the boshiken.  It's a nasty little strike if executed properly.  My appreciation for boshiken is certainly high after having experienced it at my sensei's hands.  Perhaps you may wish to ask your instructor for a fuller boshiken experience? :uhyeah:



Not sure I would survive that! It does seem to be quite painful when done properly, I just can't help but think that some other attack would be a lot _more _effective than it. Especially in that particular pattern where someone is coming and punching you twice!


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## Dean Whittle (Aug 14, 2011)

Please keep in mind that kata from the various scrolls represent a style of fighting from a particular place (Japan) and time in history. At that time a technique like jumonji using boshi ken to the specified targets made sense and were no doubt very effective. However, it's fair to say that the style of fighting has changed, and in some cases the techniques from feudal Japan may not be as effective against common contemporary attacks (think a left jab right cross combination, or a left and right hook combination). 

If you feel that the technique is an effective defense to a modern style attack, even after discussing it with your instructor and hours and hours of training, what can be done is examine whether the _tactics_ of the kata will work against a modern style attack. By that I mean that the technique is quite precise (against a step punch, step back 45 execute an uke nagashi, boshi ken to armpit/upper ribs, fingers to eyes, step back - second step punch, slide back 45 execute uke nagashi, then boshi ken to armpit/upper ribs, then fingers to eyes, step back.) But the tactics are a little more general, and open to change according to circumstance. The tactics, as I see them, for jumonji, are defend by moving off the primal line and block/counter strike using the same hand. Can those tactics be used against a modern-style attack?

All the best with your journey.

With respect


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## Dean Whittle (Aug 14, 2011)

PS: the other thing to keep in mind is that warriors of the past did extensive hand conditioning to better prepare their hands for combat. This hand conditioning makes strikes like boshi ken, goshi ken etc very effective.

With respect


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## DuskB4Dawn (Aug 14, 2011)

Ive often thought the same thing when practicing sunshin. and the chin no kata with the thumb strike to the ribs. 
the thumb strike can be really painfull if used properly. ofcourse you have to condition your hands for these. and you will be able to put more power into a very precise spot. if your targeting is spot on than this strikes will do more damadge than say just a punch to the ribs. the thing with these are you need to target weak spots of the body to be effective. so knowing your Kyusho will help

I prefer to use a knuckle strike in place of the thumb strike thou. this is more of a kukishinden than gyoku ryu thou.


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## Stealthy (Aug 14, 2011)

I've been looking for some good body shot kata to slip into my home training.

My Boshi-ken aren't all that great so I tend to punch to the solar plexus but it would be nice to use a proper kata.


Specifically I am looking for a kata with a few key elements. If the kata starts off moving back 45 once or twice that is cool but the key element needs to be.


Advancing forward 45 degrees to deflect with the trailing hand(ie: opponent steps in with the right foot attacking either my centreline or left side, evade forward right 45, check with left hand) virtually simultaneous with the evade and check is a fast disorient counter-strike to the face(ie: shako ken) step in with a powerful body shot(with the checking hand).

At the moment as in the example above I would evade right forward, check with the left, fast punch to the solar plexus with the right -> step in with the left foot to drive a max power solar plexus punch with the left -> and then just because I like it finish with a throw.

There are no variations on height or fancy targets in what I do and it would be cool to tech it up a bit. If Ninjutsu is anything it is ultra advanced sequencing and target selection so I figure there is probably already a kata or two that would fit the bill perfectly.

With Respect,
Stealthy.


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## gregtca (Aug 14, 2011)

Why waste all that time  movment , why not after moving frd to the right , just left punch / boshi to opponents solar plexus ???

Just a thought an a rainy day


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## Stealthy (Aug 14, 2011)

gregtca said:


> Why waste all that time  movment , why not after moving frd to the right , just left punch / boshi to opponents solar plexus ???
> 
> Just a thought an a rainy day



Thats more or less what I am doing. Right foot moves to the right while checking(left arm/hand) and dazing(right hand). Right foot is planted and the left moves in with the solid punch(left hand) to the solar plexus.

It's the right foot that is stable for the strike the left foot moves in to maintain distance and add a little power.


edit: since we have a discussion going.

There are a few levels of complexity that can be added to it...the most obvious is if Uki *kicks* to your *left side*(above groin...as in deflectable with an arm) with the right foot, evade to the fwd right/check/daze ->* solid left punch*. Whereas if they *punch left side*(ie: haymaker to the left ear) evade fwd right/check/daze -> *solid left kick*.

But also there are attack vector additions to complexity....Uki attacks your left side *above the shoulder *evade fwd right/check/daze(shuto-ken to the neck) -> solid left shuto-ken to the neck. But if Uki attacks *lower left ribs *evade fwd right/check(low)/daze(flesh grab armpit) -> solid kick with the left foot.

So a definitively different response could be triggered relative to the weapon(punch or kick), the attack vector(low, high, left side, right side{more actually}) and the powering side(stepping in with the right or left). To an extent more complexity can make it harder for you to be "worked out" but it does mean more time drilling in order to be effective, more importantly though relative to the many triggers there may be optimum responses.

I don't mind adding a little extra complexity so for now I am curious as to find a few body strike kata that may shed light on optimum responses.


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## Aiki Lee (Aug 14, 2011)

boshi ken, as a strike can serve a seperate purpose than say a fudo ken, the conventional fist. Boshi ken can be used not only to strike, but can grind deep into the target causing continued pain that a fudo ken cannot.

Also when looking at jumonji no kata, the first counter strike with the knuckles to the attacker's limb sets up a straight line to kyusho points like butsumetsu or kimon. Once the boshi ken hits you can grind it like I mentioned above and cause continued pain to mess with the opponent's mental and physical balance.

Boshi ken and some of the other fists have their usages for striking more difficult targets and boshi kens grinding usage can cause tearing at vulnerable areas like the arteries in the neck. Other fists such as fudo ken, shuto, or shikan ken can be used in similar areas, but the effect on the target is different. 

I recommend getting a parnter and lightly practicing the different kinds of strikes to the same areas of the body and see the different reactions you training partner has and how that would influence the flow of combat.


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## Stealthy (Aug 14, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I recommend getting a partner and lightly practicing the different kinds of strikes to the same areas of the body and see the different reactions your training partner has and how that would influence the flow of combat.



Thanks for your insights.

I particularly like your recommendation to try it out with a training partner which is certainly the backbone of everything I do(you can't trust anything these days until it's been tested).

What I like most about Ninjutsu is in theory someone has already done this, so to circumvent years of trial and error all that is needed is to grab the right kata and try it out a little.


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## Razor (Aug 15, 2011)

Dean Whittle said:


> Please keep in mind that kata from the various scrolls represent a style of fighting from a particular place (Japan) and time in history. At that time a technique like jumonji using boshi ken to the specified targets made sense and were no doubt very effective. However, it's fair to say that the style of fighting has changed, and in some cases the techniques from feudal Japan may not be as effective against common contemporary attacks (think a left jab right cross combination, or a left and right hook combination). <br>
> <br>
> If you feel that the technique is an effective defense to a modern style attack, even after discussing it with your instructor and hours and hours of training, what can be done is examine whether the <em>tactics</em> of the kata will work against a modern style attack. By that I mean that the technique is quite precise (against a step punch, step back 45 execute an uke nagashi, boshi ken to armpit/upper ribs, fingers to eyes, step back - second step punch, slide back 45 execute uke nagashi, then boshi ken to armpit/upper ribs, then fingers to eyes, step back.) But the tactics are a little more general, and open to change according to circumstance. The tactics, as I see them, for jumonji, are defend by moving off the primal line and block/counter strike using the same hand. Can those tactics be used against a modern-style attack?<br>
> <br>
> ...


<br>
<br>
Thank you, that helps to explain it. I thought that this might be the case, and that it was really meant to be teaching tactics rather than specific set patterns. <br>
 <br>


Himura Kenshin said:


> boshi ken, as a strike can serve a seperate purpose than say a fudo ken, the conventional fist. Boshi ken can be used not only to strike, but can grind deep into the target causing continued pain that a fudo ken cannot.<br>
> <br>
> Also when looking at jumonji no kata, the first counter strike with the knuckles to the attacker's limb sets up a straight line to kyusho points like butsumetsu or kimon. Once the boshi ken hits you can grind it like I mentioned above and cause continued pain to mess with the opponent's mental and physical balance.<br>
> <br>
> ...


<br>
<br>
Thank you for the comments, I hadn't thought of it in terms of which kyusho points the technique lines up with.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 15, 2011)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> Ive often thought the same thing when practicing sunshin. and the chin no kata with the thumb strike to the ribs.
> the thumb strike can be really painfull if used properly. ofcourse you have to condition your hands for these. and you will be able to put more power into a very precise spot. if your targeting is spot on than this strikes will do more damadge than say just a punch to the ribs. the thing with these are you need to target weak spots of the body to be effective. so knowing your Kyusho will help
> 
> I prefer to use a knuckle strike in place of the thumb strike thou. this is more of a kukishinden than gyoku ryu thou.



Psst, it's "Sanshin", or more correctly, "Gogyo no Kata", and it's not the Chi no Kata that has the Shito Ken to the ribs, it's Fu no Kata. Chi no Kata has a Sanshitan Ken to the jaw. And, so you know, although Kukishinden Ryu certainly does use Koppo Ken a fair bit (the middle knuckle of the thumb), it uses Boshi Ken quite a bit as well. After all, the name "Boshi Ken" comes from the Kukishinden Ryu itself, with Gyokko (along with Koto and some others) using the term "Shito Ken". But you'll see Kukishinden Ryu next year... with a small glimpse at the next Special Workshop in a few weeks time.



Stealthy said:


> I've been looking for some good body shot kata to slip into my home training.
> 
> My Boshi-ken aren't all that great so I tend to punch to the solar plexus but it would be nice to use a proper kata.
> 
> ...



To be frank, Stealthy, if you're not training the kata correctly, or properly, instead looking to express what you want to do (moving forward instead of the angled movement back), then you probably aren't getting what the kata are there to teach. There are a large number of reasons for Jumonji to move the way it does, having to do with the position it is in your learning of Gyokko Ryu, as well as the various strategic lessons inherrant in the movements themselves. These include, but are not limited to, a correct understanding of the relationship between distance and angling, the use of same hand for blocking and counter-striking, moving against a continuous attack, moving to a position where you can counter while not being able to be struck (ideally, this should be your position when you launch the Shito Ken, which is why a simple shift back moves your hand out of range with the finger-tips towards the eyes). Additionally, if you have simply moved sideways, then your a little too cramped for a really powerful punch to the solar plexus, and you're directly in range for a second punch from the attacker. Perhaps a little more study of the original movement before rushing to change it?

But while I'm here, let's look at Shito Ken as opposed to Boshi Ken (there's a reason the name is slightly different....)

Shito Ken (&#25351;&#20995;&#25331 refers to "finger sword fist", and implies a more striking weapon. In schools that use this term (Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Togakure Ryu), it is more often used as a pinpoint weapon attacking smaller targets. Here, the fist is held solidly, with the thumb braced against the rest of the closed hand. In regard to the targets mentioned above, it may be pertinent to realise that, if in armour, it may only be such targets (under the armpit, top of the ribs) which are available for you to strike... and using a full fist might see you simply slamming your fingers into the armour, risking damaging them and missing your target.

Boshi Ken (&#25287;&#25351;&#25331 refers more simply to the thumb, meaning more along the lines of a "probing finger/thumb fist". The schools that use this term (such as Kukishinden Ryu) tend to use it more as a pressuring weapon, often against the side of the neck or into the hip to help prevent/stop a throw. Here, the thumb can be held against the rest of the hand, but is often in an open hand (with the fingers gripping, or the hand bracing to support the thumb).


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## Stealthy (Aug 15, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> To be frank, Stealthy, if you're not training the kata correctly, or properly, instead looking to express what you want to do (moving forward instead of the angled movement back), then you probably aren't getting what the kata are there to teach. There are a large number of reasons for Jumonji to move the way it does, having to do with the position it is in your learning of Gyokko Ryu, as well as the various strategic lessons inherrant in the movements themselves. These include, but are not limited to, a correct understanding of the relationship between distance and angling, the use of same hand for blocking and counter-striking, moving against a continuous attack, moving to a position where you can counter while not being able to be struck (ideally, this should be your position when you launch the Shito Ken, which is why a simple shift back moves your hand out of range with the finger-tips towards the eyes). Additionally, if you have simply moved sideways, then your a little too cramped for a really powerful punch to the solar plexus, and you're directly in range for a second punch from the attacker. Perhaps a little more study of the original movement before rushing to change it?



Thanks for the input. It is not my intention to change the kata rather it is my wish to change what I am doing to the kata. Everything I do has purpose and fits in with everything else I do, if I can replace my own kata with better kata then that is great. Moving back and away has great value when it can be used and then there are times when it can't(ie: confined spaces) so it is not my intention to alter kata to suit the situation rather to select the right kata for the situation. I realise Ninjutsu may not have all the answers but that is fine everything it does have can be put to good use so any help is greatly appreciated. Since my resources are severely limited the best course of action I have is simply to ask.

Can you think of a kata or two which fit the bill?


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## Stealthy (Aug 15, 2011)

Perhaps I need to give a better example.

I hold in my hand a translation for Kap-pi kata. Attack: wide thumb knuckle strike to the temple. Defence: left forearm jamming-block and right inside sword-hand strike to the neck...step with a left inside sword-hand strike to the other side of the neck...leap back away.

This kata is fine for the thumb knuckle strike to the temple but I have to ask the question..Is it the "right" kata to use for a low punch to the ribs? Since I can't possibly answer that question because it's only "real Ninjutsu" if a real Ninja tells me it is, I have two choices, get the "right" kata or just do my own thing.

So doing my own thing might be varying the kata to a defence against a low attack but keeping the sword hands to the neck or perhaps completely scrapping the sword hands and doing two solar plexus punches instead. Neither option is Ninjutsu but at the end of the day I have to do something.

A better option is to find the "right" kata(if there is one) and that's what I am trying to do here.

My apologies for revealing info about Kap-pi which may be inappropriate for an internet forum but I tried in a couple of posts already to paint the picture without resorting to Ninjutsu intel.


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## gregtca (Aug 15, 2011)

Mmmm, i beleave Chris has answered very well your question , but im not sure you understand his answer , perhaps read it a few times , i think you are trying to "hard" to have a kata responce to an attack, and as chris said above , they are little leasons to learn on each, not answers to everything /attack that might or might not happen in a particular way, i beleave we all crawled - then walked - then ran , so i would respectfully advise this principle , learn the kata - change to henka - then forget them and move on from there, 

Hope this helps 

Greg


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## Razor (Aug 15, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> But while I'm here, let's look at Shito Ken as opposed to Boshi Ken (there's a reason the name is slightly different....)
> 
> Shito Ken (&#25351;&#20995;&#25331 refers to "finger sword fist", and implies a more striking weapon. In schools that use this term (Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Togakure Ryu), it is more often used as a pinpoint weapon attacking smaller targets. Here, the fist is held solidly, with the thumb braced against the rest of the closed hand. In regard to the targets mentioned above, it may be pertinent to realise that, if in armour, it may only be such targets (under the armpit, top of the ribs) which are available for you to strike... and using a full fist might see you simply slamming your fingers into the armour, risking damaging them and missing your target.
> 
> Boshi Ken (&#25287;&#25351;&#25331 refers more simply to the thumb, meaning more along the lines of a "probing finger/thumb fist". The schools that use this term (such as Kukishinden Ryu) tend to use it more as a pressuring weapon, often against the side of the neck or into the hip to help prevent/stop a throw. Here, the thumb can be held against the rest of the hand, but is often in an open hand (with the fingers gripping, or the hand bracing to support the thumb).



Thanks, I didn't realise the subtle difference in meaning, and wasn't really sure if they were interchangeable or not.



gregtca said:


> Mmmm, i beleave Chris has answered very well your question , but im not sure you understand his answer , perhaps read it a few times , i think you are trying to "hard" to have a kata responce to an attack, and as chris said above , they are little leasons to learn on each, not answers to everything /attack that might or might not happen in a particular way, i beleave we all crawled - then walked - then ran , so i would respectfully advise this principle , learn the kata - change to henka - then forget them and move on from there,
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Greg



I understand that kata are not supposed to be pre-programmed responses to attack, I was just wondering about the effectiveness of that detail of the response. My instructor also often encourages us to consider henka once we have practised the kata a bit, so I'm not getting stuck in the mindset of performing these particular responses. I'm sure a lot more understanding will come with training though!


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## Stealthy (Aug 15, 2011)

gregtca said:


> Mmmm, i beleave Chris has answered very well your question , but im not sure you understand his answer , perhaps read it a few times , i think you are trying to "hard" to have a kata responce to an attack, and as chris said above , they are little leasons to learn on each, not answers to everything /attack that might or might not happen in a particular way, i beleave we all crawled - then walked - then ran , so i would respectfully advise this principle , learn the kata - change to henka - then forget them and move on from there,
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Greg



Sweet thanks Greg, sure it helps.

Sorry to Ninja your thread Razor, I didn't realise asking for a kata or two which include Boshi ken, Shito ken or something equally groovy would be such an ordeal.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 16, 2011)

Stealthy said:


> Thanks for the input. It is not my intention to change the kata rather it is my wish to change what I am doing to the kata. Everything I do has purpose and fits in with everything else I do, if I can replace my own kata with better kata then that is great. Moving back and away has great value when it can be used and then there are times when it can't(ie: confined spaces) so it is not my intention to alter kata to suit the situation rather to select the right kata for the situation. I realise Ninjutsu may not have all the answers but that is fine everything it does have can be put to good use so any help is greatly appreciated. Since my resources are severely limited the best course of action I have is simply to ask.
> 
> Can you think of a kata or two which fit the bill?



Hmm, I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about here.... One of the points of learning a martial art is to move past what "you" want, or think is best, and adopt the teachings of the art itself. Changing things because "well, I just think that moving back is limited" really misses the point of learning the art in the first place, as you are ignoring what it's trying to teach you. There's really nothing about "what you are doing to the kata", as you don't really do anything "to" it, until you have actually understood it. That said, when you do understand what the kata is teaching, then you are free to adapt it... for instance, with Jumonji no Kata, you may find that moving forward to the outside keeps with the ideals of the kata (in terms of maintaining distance and angling to keep you safe while allowing a counter strike), whereas moving forward or sideways to the inside doesn't. 

So here's a fun, "modern" version that employs your wanting to find something that moves forward, while maintaining the lessons of Jumonji no Kata:

Uke: Orthodox "boxer" pose, left leg forward. Jab to the face with your lead hand.
Tori: Short "street" version of Jumonji no Kamae, evade by angling forward to the right as you deflect the punch with your right (lead) hand, then punch to the floating ribs with a left (rear) punch. Bring your left hand up on the outside of Uke's arm/shoulder, and push them away as you gain distance.
Uke: Step in towards Tori and punch to the head with a right hook/haymaker
Tori: Evade by dropping under Uke's punch as you move forward and to the left, using your left hand to help "guide" or deflect the punch past. Strike to the floating ribs with a right punch, then come up on the outside, and push Uke away.

As you can see, most of Jumonji no Kata's lessons are preserved here (while some, such as constant use of the same hand, are necessarily left out). A controlling or knockout finish can always be added as well, and the punches (with sufficient hand conditioning!) can be swapped for Shito Ken, although for a "street" technique, I'd most likely keep it as a fist.

When it comes to looking for a kata that uses a forward action, think of ones like Seion from Kukishinden Ryu, Kyogi from Koto Ryu, and so on. They're there, but by necessity they are different kata. Trying to make one kata the answer to everything, or have it as the basis for answers to everything just doesn't work.



Stealthy said:


> Perhaps I need to give a better example.
> 
> I hold in my hand a translation for Kap-pi kata. Attack: wide thumb knuckle strike to the temple. Defence: left forearm jamming-block and right inside sword-hand strike to the neck...step with a left inside sword-hand strike to the other side of the neck...leap back away.
> 
> ...



That version of Kappi is only found in one organisation, and is not a "translation" of the kata, it is a henka application of the kata against an attack, rather than as an offensive action as it appears in the scroll itself (for the record, the direct translations I've seen for Kappi basically say "Two complete Ura Shuto to the neck". That's it.). There are reasons that it was designed that way (in the organisation you got it from), but I'm not going into that on a forum here.

Once again, if you are looking for specific kata dealing with low punches, they exist as well. I'm thinking some kata in Takagi Yoshin Ryu, some Shinden Fudo Ryu, some in Gyokko Ryu, and even some in Koto Ryu. Look to Kodachi defences against thrusts to the body as a starting point.

In terms of whether or not what you're doing is 'Kappi', no, it's not. If you look to the name, "Kappi" refers to "draw together", or "pack together and fly". You're not drawing or packing together with the low punches, or leaping (flying) to escape at the end either.



Stealthy said:


> Sweet thanks Greg, sure it helps.
> 
> Sorry to Ninja your thread Razor, I didn't realise asking for a kata or two which include Boshi ken, Shito ken or something equally groovy would be such an ordeal.



Ah, only a kata or two that include Boshi Ken/Shito Ken? That's easy! Which system are you thinking of? Togakure Ryu has Sayu Kumogakure, for instance, Gyokko Ryu uses Shito Ken quite a bit, as does Koto Ryu, it's very popular in Kukishinden Ryu, is found in Takagi Yoshin Ryu.... but honestly, I didn't get that request from your posts.



Razor said:


> Thanks, I didn't realise the subtle difference in meaning, and wasn't really sure if they were interchangeable or not.


 
Not a problem. You may also come across terms such as "Yubi Ken", basically literally "thumb fist", or "Moguri Ken", "burrowing fist", and a few others.... just to keep you on your toes!

Something that may be stated, though, is that there are reasons for the various fists being preferred by one system or another. You may note that many kamae in Gyokko Ryu feature a Shito Ken (Jumonji, Ichimonji, Hicho, their form of Doko), and in each instance the thumb is pointing straight upwards. One of the associated spiritual teachings of Gyokko Ryu teaches that your energy travels through your thumbs, and you are directing that energy towards Heaven.

Oh, and while I'm here, the kata you were referring to in your initial post is Jumonji no Kata, rather than Jumonji no Kamae. There is a sequence of movements (kata) within Gyokko Ryu, as part of it's Kihon Gata, that is called Jumonji no Kamae. It is the third of the Muto Taihenjutsu, a series of exercises dealing with evasive actions against a swordsman, and although it starts from Jumonji no Kamae, there is no use of a Shito Ken. 



Razor said:


> I understand that kata are not supposed to be pre-programmed responses to attack, I was just wondering about the effectiveness of that detail of the response. My instructor also often encourages us to consider henka once we have practised the kata a bit, so I'm not getting stuck in the mindset of performing these particular responses. I'm sure a lot more understanding will come with training though!



Well, really, they are and they aren't.... 

No, you're not supposed to automatically respond with a rote responce a la the kata movements, as each encounter is it's own unique situation, and some adaptation may indeed be required. However, what the kata are designed to do is to instill (program) their lessons, tactics, and strategies, which can then be expressed in myriad forms, so if you look at them as programming you with their combative tactics, then yes you are supposed to come out with them!

All the best with your continued training.


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## Stealthy (Aug 16, 2011)

chris parker said:


> one of the points of learning a martial art is to move past what "you" want, or think is best, and adopt the teachings of the art itself.


Very true.


chris parker said:


> trying to make *one* kata the answer to everything, or have it as the basis for answers to everything just doesn't work.


Wow, I really said that? That's crazy talk, clearly you need at least two. 

Seriously though, How many kata do you need to have a *good* answer for everything(within reason)?



chris parker said:


> (for the record, the direct translations i've seen for kappi basically say "two complete ura shuto to the neck". That's it.)


This is why I don't even pretend to know anything about Ninjutsu and try to refrain from referring to specific kata. I *know* I don't know anything.



chris parker said:


> once again, if you are looking for specific kata dealing with low punches, they exist as well. I'm thinking some kata in takagi yoshin ryu, some shinden fudo ryu, some in gyokko ryu, and even some in koto ryu. Look to kodachi defences against thrusts to the body as a starting point.


yeah that's what I was looking for, kata which had Tori delivering body strikes but to avoid being inundated with 15,000 kata I specified moving forward 45, checking with the trailing hand, counterstriking above the shoulders and then delivering a solid body-shot.


chris parker said:


> ah, only a kata or two that include boshi ken/shito ken? That's easy! Which system are you thinking of? Togakure ryu has sayu kumogakure, for instance, gyokko ryu uses shito ken quite a bit, as does koto ryu, it's very popular in kukishinden ryu, is found in takagi yoshin ryu....


Hmm, which Ryu? that's a good question, I don't know enough about any of the ryu to say.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 16, 2011)

Stealthy said:


> Seriously though, How many kata do you need to have a *good* answer for everything(within reason)?



That depends entirely on what you're looking to have answers for, really. For example, I could put together a program for dealing with the bulk of unarmed assaults, covering the majority of situations, in about 10 or 15 kata, but it won't then deal with groups, verbal de-escalation, knife assaults, firearms, impact weapons, use of weapons, and so on. If you look at the various Ryu-ha, Gyokko for instance has about 50 (including Kihon Gata), and is very comprehensive in what it covers (striking, grappling, kicking, short and long weapon defences, intuition methods, and so on), but there is no group work, no ground work, and so on. Koto Ryu has no kick defences, no group, and no intuition. Kukishinden has no weapon defence, Togakure has no strike or kick defence, but does have group defence and intuition, as well as multiple weapon uses. A modern look at things will have a very different set of requirements to the traditional methods, and so on.

One example may be our knife training programs. We have about four complete "knife" programs, for different situations, including reverse grip entrapping work, knife against thrusting weapons (such as bayonets), tactical approaches to knife etc, but a few years ago I actually developed a new one, as it dealt with knife in a way that wasn't covered in the other material we have. That's certainly not saying that the programs were lacking, in and of themselves, just that there was a situation that wasn't covered. So how many knife programs are needed? Honestly, it depends on where you may expect it to be used. I'd give a different program to a military person than I would a civilian, for instance.



Stealthy said:


> yeah that's what I was looking for, kata which had Tori delivering body strikes but to avoid being inundated with 15,000 kata I specified moving forward 45, checking with the trailing hand, counterstriking above the shoulders and then delivering a solid body-shot.



You may be looking for something a little too specific, then. I can think of kata that have elements of a number of the aspects you mention, but not all of it. It's like asking if anyone knows a good movie... which is 1 hour 49 minutes long, is an action-adventure, with a love triangle between Bruce Willis, Kiera Knightley, and Meryl Streep. Oh, and it's in French.

And again, if you're picking out exactly what you want the kata to have, then you're possibly missing out on what the extant kata have to teach. 



Stealthy said:


> Hmm, which Ryu? that's a good question, I don't know enough about any of the ryu to say.



And that's kinda the point. You're asking for something without knowing what is actually out there. The kata are the way they are for very good reasons, designing ones that are what you would want them to be is ignoring the reasons they are the way they are.

Bear in mind that creating your own training programs for modern self defence training at home isn't in and of itself bad, provided you are properly informed on how such things need to be designed, but looking for kata to fill a specific need or desire like this is not going to be very fruitful.


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## Stealthy (Aug 16, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> You may be looking for something a little too specific.


That answers my question perfectly.


Chris Parker said:


> And again, if you're picking out exactly what you want the kata to have, then you're possibly missing out on what the extant kata have to teach.


Oh, I am definately missing out on what the kata have to teach. Mainly because I don't have many, that's why I asked.



Chris Parker said:


> You're asking for something without knowing what is actually out there. The kata are the way they are for very good reasons, designing ones that are what you would want them to be is ignoring the reasons they are the way they are.


It is not my intention to redesign Ninjutsu kata.

I don't have enough Ninjutsu kata to use and I have problems that need answers.

 ie: the program I have at the moment has nine kata 3 moving back and away twice then back in, 3 moving straight in and 3 muto-dori. There are 5 defences against head strikes two haymakers, two thrusts and one knife hand, one defence against a kick then punch and 3 defences against sword attacks.

 It is a great Ninjustu program and all but how on earth am I supposed to build a solid defense with that? there is no defense against a straight body punch, no defense against a hook body shot, no defense against a leg kick etc etc etc...Since I have buckleys chance of knowing if I should even be using any of the kata against body shots or if there might be "better" kata to use it leaves me in an awkward position.

 So what I do is mix in a little karate, the opponent attacks with low punch no problem, step to the right downward block and strike to the neck with knife hand, follow it up with a strong punch to the floating ribs. I know its not Ninjutsu, it's not even a modified Ninjutsu kata, sure one might say I have drawn on some Ninjutsu for inspiration but it is decidedly not Ninjutsu....I would rather be doing Ninjutsu though, if there are no kata that can resolve this issue then that's cool but I always thought Ninjutsu was worth more than that. As you've pointed out I don't know crap about what is and isn't out there so I ask a question I learn something new. Hey, I wind up knowing more than I did before, it's all win for me.

So thanks for your time, you have been a great help. I really learn quite a lot from your posts.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 16, 2011)

Knowing where you got the program from, and how they are designed, typically there is a single emphasis which links all the kata in the program with an underlying theme, so look to that as to why the kata are present there. For example I am presently writing a Tai Sabaki program to present here in Melbourne, and all the kata involved there have a common theme of Tai Sabaki. Each program is specific to it's theme, so don't expect any to have all the answers.

Honestly, in order to get the results you are looking for, you will need to attend class again. Mixing in karate might not really give you the result you are after either, frankly. You will probably find that most of the "straight attack" patterns can be easily adapted to a low-level punch, but that is something you should be getting personal guidance on. Without that, frankly I'd probably suggest even putting the notes away. You seem to be looking for things that aren't there, and are approaching things from a rather off direction.

I wish you the best with your training, but honestly you're just moving further and further from what you were actually taught, it may be best to make a decision as to whether you want to return and study properly, or keep going with your newer direction, which will take you further from anything to do with Ninjutsu-related arts, other than some superficially similar aspects.


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## Stealthy (Aug 16, 2011)

Fair enough.


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## Supra Vijai (Aug 18, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> It's like asking if anyone knows a good movie... which is 1 hour 49 minutes long, is an action-adventure, with a love triangle between Bruce Willis, Kiera Knightley, and Meryl Streep. Oh, and it's in French.



I *almost* looked this up.... sigh...


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## skuggvarg (Aug 19, 2011)

Stealthy said:


> I would rather be doing Ninjutsu though, if there are no kata that can resolve this issue then that's cool but I always thought Ninjutsu was worth more than that.



Stealthy, if you are a beginner I would recommend you continue to practise the diagonally backward movement combined with Jodan / Gedan Uke Nagashi (high / low recieving form). Forget moving 45° forward at the time. The basics should be ichimonji and you need  to do it for a long time until you get it. Here is a little training advice for you to test yourself:

-Can you stand in a correct Ichimonji without your back getting bent and / or your kneew leaning inwards?

-When in Ichimonji, can you lift your front leg witout redistributing weight and without moving your body up or down?

-When doing a diagonally backwards shift, can you do it at "full speed" without loosing balance? Can you immediately after your move counter-kick with your front foot without moving your body?

-Can you execute a forward lunge punch from Ichimonji and hit your opponent before he moves out of your target zone?

-Can you follow up a lunge punch with a new punch or kick immediately after the initial attack?

These things are very, very important and extremely basic when it comes to ninjutsu (bujinkan ryu-ha).

Regards / Skuggvarg


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## Stealthy (Aug 19, 2011)

Thanks for the tips Skuggvarg, I could definitely do all of the things you mentioned better than I do them now.


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## Razor (Aug 19, 2011)

Stealthy said:


> It is a great Ninjustu program and all but how on earth am I supposed to build a solid defense with that? there is no defense against a straight body punch, no defense against a hook body shot, no defense against a leg kick etc etc etc...Since I have buckleys chance of knowing if I should even be using any of the kata against body shots or if there might be "better" kata to use it leaves me in an awkward position.



Isn't that the point of training to a higher level? They might not all be there at first, but they come in at later levels. My class have definitely been shown defences against body punches (like Hicho no kata) and throwing and blocking defences for kicks. I don't think they're in the Kihon Happo, but they are in there somewhere at a later level (someone please correct me if that's wrong).


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## Stealthy (Aug 20, 2011)

Razor said:


> Isn't that the point of training to a higher level? They might not all be there at first, but they come in at later levels. My class have definitely been shown defences against body punches (like Hicho no kata) and throwing and blocking defences for kicks. I don't think they're in the Kihon Happo, but they are in there somewhere at a later level (someone please correct me if that's wrong).


Please don't misunderstand. There is nothing wrong with my Sensei's methods nor the style, there are in fact countless ways to deal with any possible attack. Certainly I have the means to accurately alter kata to suit slightly different attacks without losing most of the essense. The trouble is in many instances there may actually be kata better suited for the situation which take into consideration elements I may not have perceived. The fact is I don't know all of the Kata, I don't even know how to discover all of the kata, I need to jump through hoops just to learn one new kata. So that's all I was doing, asking for more kata, if someone wants to tell me that's great, if not well that's cool too.

Actually I really like Sensei Parkers advice. For Eleven years I have endured "Pressure" to master Ninjutsu forms and I think it is time to just let it go for a while. I will sink myself back into karate for a month or two and completely forget I ever did Ninjutsu. In a couple of months I shall return to the Ninjutsu school with the mind that I have forgotten everything and start over from scratch.

It has always bothered me that in Ninjutsu we never do any sparring and it is very painful to see that ability go rusty. Since I truly offered everything over to the school I have not indulged in karate for eleven years. Once I get back to a high level again and feel like I've got my fix of sparring(I just love it, it's why I do Martial Arts) then I can commit back to the school completely again. So great advice Sensei Parker, I've packed my notes into my trusty ninja chest, padlocked it up, reduced "the pressure" and am really looking forward to walking into "Mysterious Unnamed Ninjutsu Master's" class and looking at him through the eyes of someone who knows absolutely nothing then taking in everything I see. Not many of you know who I am talking about but those who do, understand how great it will feel, he truly is a living legend. To put it another way...the time has come for me to completely "empty the cup".


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## Razor (Aug 20, 2011)

Stealthy said:


> Please don't misunderstand. There is nothing wrong with my Sensei's methods nor the style, there are in fact countless ways to deal with any possible attack. Certainly I have the means to accurately alter kata to suit slightly different attacks without losing most of the essense. The trouble is in many instances there may actually be kata better suited for the situation which take into consideration elements I may not have perceived. The fact is I don't know all of the Kata, I don't even know how to discover all of the kata, I need to jump through hoops just to learn one new kata. So that's all I was doing, asking for more kata, if someone wants to tell me that's great, if not well that's cool too.
> 
> Actually I really like Sensei Parkers advice. For Eleven years I have endured "Pressure" to master Ninjutsu forms and I think it is time to just let it go for a while. I will sink myself back into karate for a month or two and completely forget I ever did Ninjutsu. In a couple of months I shall return to the Ninjutsu school with the mind that I have forgotten everything and start over from scratch.
> 
> It has always bothered me that in Ninjutsu we never do any sparring and it is very painful to see that ability go rusty. Since I truly offered everything over to the school I have not indulged in karate for eleven years. Once I get back to a high level again and feel like I've got my fix of sparring(I just love it, it's why I do Martial Arts) then I can commit back to the school completely again. So great advice Sensei Parker, I've packed my notes into my trusty ninja chest, padlocked it up, reduced "the pressure" and am really looking forward to walking into "Mysterious Unnamed Ninjutsu Master's" class and looking at him through the eyes of someone who knows absolutely nothing then taking in everything I see. Not many of you know who I am talking about but those who do, understand how great it will feel, he truly is a living legend. To put it another way...the time has come for me to completely "empty the cup".



Ah, right, I see. It is a bit unfortunate to practice martial arts and not spar. We don't do it much in my dojo, and I've never done it before, but may do some MMA at a later level if it fits in.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 20, 2011)

Right, to clear up this sparring thing, there are some very real reasons we don't do what most consider "sparring" to be (ie two people face off and try to "fight" each other, both trying to attack and defend at the same time, and generally outperform the other person). And they have nothing to do with the old "too deadly to spar" thing (which is a crock, to be frank).

The primary reason we don't engage in that form of training is that it goes directly against the skills, strategies, and tactics that we are trying to instill in the practitioners. We are trying to instill a skill-set of immediate, powerful response, with the aim to escape and move away from the situation as soon as possible, and sparring doesn't allow that. It insists that you stay and fight, when we are teaching to escape and evade. It teaches to continue with long bouts, while we are teaching to end things quickly, and so on.

That said, we do engage in the Japanese form of sparring, referred to as "Randori" (different to the usage of the term in Judo, but similar to the usage in Aikido, if that helps). This is a type of "free response" training, and starts of by having a couple of related, or similar pre-trained and pre-determined responses to a pre-determined attack (for example, three different possible "answers" to a lunge punch attack), and the defender responds with one of the responses without deciding which. That way the attack is always going to be true, as the attacker doesn't know which way the defender is going to go. From there the attacks become random as well, initially with only a few possibilities, and moving up to a final form of completely random attacks and completely random responses. This way we maintain the ability to reinforce the tactics and methods taught in the art while giving all the benefits of sparring without the drawbacks.


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## Stealthy (Aug 20, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Right, to clear up this sparring thing, there are some very real reasons we don't do what most consider "sparring" to be (ie two people face off and try to "fight" each other, both trying to attack and defend at the same time, and generally outperform the other person). And they have nothing to do with the old "too deadly to spar" thing (which is a crock, to be frank).
> 
> The primary reason we don't engage in that form of training is that it goes directly against the skills, strategies, and tactics that we are trying to instill in the practitioners. We are trying to instill a skill-set of immediate, powerful response, with the aim to escape and move away from the situation as soon as possible, and sparring doesn't allow that. It insists that you stay and fight, when we are teaching to escape and evade. It teaches to continue with long bouts, while we are teaching to end things quickly, and so on.
> 
> That said, we do engage in the Japanese form of sparring, referred to as "Randori" (different to the usage of the term in Judo, but similar to the usage in Aikido, if that helps). This is a type of "free response" training, and starts of by having a couple of related, or similar pre-trained and pre-determined responses to a pre-determined attack (for example, three different possible "answers" to a lunge punch attack), and the defender responds with one of the responses without deciding which. That way the attack is always going to be true, as the attacker doesn't know which way the defender is going to go. From there the attacks become random as well, initially with only a few possibilities, and moving up to a final form of completely random attacks and completely random responses. This way we maintain the ability to reinforce the tactics and methods taught in the art while giving all the benefits of sparring without the drawbacks.



"Randori" is what I would call "sparring", what boxers and MMA players call "sparring" I would call "fighting with gloves on". To a degree I would  define "sparring" as really just very complex "drilling" but sufficiently complex that it ceases to be mindless repetition and moves more so into the realm of "free response" training. Sparring allows you to condition your body from being hit, condition your strikes such that with the gloves off to an unconditioned opponent they would be "quite painful" strikes, condition the defenses so hits must be worked for. Sparring allows you to hone the reflexes of following up on a successful hit and if you want to "get away afterwards". It develops the ability to read weight distribution and ranges along with honing ways of getting in and out and working the flanks. Most importantly of all Sparring allows you to condition your "triggers" such that responses come out automatically when the right conditions are met.

Granted this is probably starting to get a little off topic but the way I train for sparring is to start off with light drills of single attacks to a single target on a specific attack vector(ie: haymaker to the head) while conditioning just one defense for that attack(rather than three) alternating right and left sides. Then work through all of the other key "triggers"(trailing hand haymaker/shuto ken/kicks to head/neck, straight punches/kicks to head/neck, haymaker lead hand to chest areas, haymaker trailing hand to chest areas, straight punches to chest areas, blah, blah, blah, ditto lower abdomen with hooks, uppercuts and straight punches, leg kicks...inside leg, outside leg, crescents....etc...etc...etc). This way everything gets worked a minimum number of times so favoured techniques don't over shadow others.

Then once sufficiently "warmed up" the attacks become unnominated while the defenses remain the same one response for each key trigger. If the Uki can launch an attack which your list of kata can't handle(and well) then the list is incomplete....Assuming however that your list is good you have one response for all possible attacks and can work on the triggers for them. The way I do it is the Uki attacks at the very limit of Tori's ability if Tori fails the defense the attack must be slowed down such that Tori can be successful but it is Uki's job to constantly push to the point of failure while trying not to go past it. With this level of training a very solid fighting ability can be "drawn out" of a person super quickly and there is nothing more enjoyable than lighting fast effective responses with hard deflections and strikes against lightning fast free form attacks. Sure it's not "fighting" but it's about as close as I think you can get to it in a safe environment.

The problem I see with having multiple responses for single triggers is "when the attack comes in a decision must be made" and even if it's the unconscious mind that makes it, the decision making process surely must waste time. Since in a self defense situation the opponent has no chance of "working you out" there is no real disadvantage of having a "most likely" defense....and if that "most likely"(most drilled) defense fails or is inappropriate for a particular situation and the unconscious mind is required to dig deep and pull something else out then you are merely in the same position as the person who doesn't highly polish their "best defenses" and relies on their unconscious responses for everything. If there are three really good defenses for a single trigger I would be more inclined to condition one to the point of perfection for a month then ditch it for the second and in a month ditch that one for the third..in the fourth month I may randomly pick one, so if the conditions are met it is the most likely to come out but if something wierd happens then the others are still there just below the surface.

 Of course I know nothing about training the mind and maybe it is better to give it lots of conflicting responses and make it learn how to choose quicker. I guess if this is the case then it is probably worth doing both methods...sometimes sparring with one defense to highly polish physical triggers and build up autonomous responses...at other times doing the three conflicting responses method to train the mind making it better at pulling stuff out of the hat when "it" hits the fan.

All told I think we are both talking about the same thing, it's just I've never encountered it within Ninjutsu. It takes me just under an hour to warm up with just one defense for each key trigger before I can start full top speed free sparring so a three response per trigger warm up would be well over two hours before hitting paydirt and getting into free-form. Considering I'm usually knackered within two hours, it's not surprising I've never encountered Ninjutsu's version.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 21, 2011)

Wow, uh, not sure where to start with all that....

First off, though you may refer to sparring and randori in that fashion, it may do to recognise that that is the opposite to the common usage. Next, honestly, that entire method you're describing seems unnecessarily convoluted, as well as quite literally going in the wrong direction. Then, the idea of "getting to" the free-form responce is more about the skill level attained, not about the amount of time in a particular training session, otherwise you'd never get to it. Honestly, I'd expect my seniors to be able to hit free-form (randori) pretty much straight away, depending on what we are covering (up to 10 or 15 minutes if the parameters need to be covered first). And lastly, it's spelt "Uke". (PS Read that last one with me being gentle and smiling, it's meant in good humour, but I don't like using smilies, so you get this long explaination.... phew!).


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## Stealthy (Aug 21, 2011)

hehe good stuff, don't worry your humour is well received this end. Agreed on the whole common usage thing, I guess thats one of the real advantages or disadvantages however you want to look at it of an all styles welcome Martial Arts forum, a lot of us have totally different meanings for the same words. Sparring is one of those funny ones were there are so many different subtleties that it's virtually impossible to ensure everyone knows what you mean, I guess thats why all the variants get thrown around a lot like "light sparring", "free sparring", "full contact sparring" etc. Kata is another word easily misinterpreted, my usage of the word kata is perhaps more akin to "combo" but combo doesn't do it justice since the level of complexity within Ninjutsu kata goes well beyond the scope of the term "combo".

The "skill level" comment I agree with aswell. With a complete beginner I would free form 2-4 triggers (ie: left side high, right side high, left side low, right side low) with so few triggers the warm up doesn't take very long.

I use 3 main sets of triggers, the four quadrant trigger overlay previously described, a basic noughts and crosses board overlay which has nine hitboxes for the intermediate skill level and then for full blown all triggers work a nine grid line overlay(purely by coincidence it looks like the kuji kiri pattern) which thus has 12 hitboxes{for want of a better term I would say you need to "train one(kata) on each of the twelve levels(hitboxes)"}. You still have to repeat the whole grid for flanking left and right so with 12 allocations per side thats 24 executed kata to perform the full set once(assuming you are sticking to one facing, add more executions if you want to drill left foot forward and right foot forward, fortunately only a few kata are facing dependent). If you want different responses relative to whether they kick or punch then double that to 48 executions(24 kata moving left, the same 24 moving right). Throw in a basic set of responses for being grappled and a few muto dori kata and you have quite a list going...Since it is one response per trigger I would call this one "Style", as you mentioned you like three responses per trigger I would work that out as three seperate styles each with between 12-24 seperate kata excluding grappling defence and muto dori...."Convoluted", definitely, how about "over the top"?{insert smiley face here}.

The context of this type of workout "drill warmup and sparring session" is probably important to avoid misunderstanding. This type of workout is not meant to replace a normal workout or home training program but rather I use it as a special "pulling all the pieces together and using them workout" which has it's foundation in more traditional workouts and programs since it is from them that the pieces become available.


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## ElfTengu (Aug 28, 2011)

Try Hiso Ken and build up to boshi/shito ken.

Two things to try: First, perhaps oversimplified, retract the thumb somewhat, punch initially with the knuckles, and then tilt the fist forward and use the thumb, quite effective into an area which is still registering the impact of the knuckles a millisecond before. Or Second, punch like a Fudo Ken but with a small amount of the thumb protruding so that the thumb and knuckles hit as near as damnit simultaneously but with more support for the thumb than a normal boshi ken provides.


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