# Permanent injury from training?



## KydeX (Nov 7, 2012)

Hi.

I have been training in Bujinkan for almost three years now. We go at it pretty hard sometimes. Sometimes because me and my uke has agreed on it, and sometimes by accident. Also, our main instructor can be really tough sometimes when he demonstrates new stuff.

I especially feel this on elbow locks. At the end of a session of using mostly elbow locks, it really hurts. Sometimes I feel it for several days afterwards.

Could this be damaging to the joints in any way in the long term?


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## bluewaveschool (Nov 7, 2012)

I'm not a doctor, but I'd say.... ask a doctor.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 7, 2012)

KydeX said:


> Could this be damaging to the joints in any way in the long term?



I am not a doctor.  This is not medical advice.

However, in my opinion, life is damaging to the joints in the long term.  Muscle is designed to be torn down and rebuilt by the body; the more you use it, the stronger it gets.  Joints are made up of bone, cartilage,  tendons, and so on, and some of those are friction points that do not self-repair, nor become stronger with use or abuse.  Some parts of the body are not made tougher by intentionally damaging them.  If I had to guess, I would say that forcing joints to overextend would be one of those things that doesn't make a person stronger, better, or more flexible by doing it.  Not talking about being able to do the splits, but like you said, bending elbows backwards.

From looking at the medical issues that profession athletes suffer over the course of their careers, many of which seem to give them trouble later in life, I would say you are right to be concerned.

Caution is advised.  Consult your doctor.  Listen to your body.

I have had some injuries in my life that still cause me problems, decades later; that means at my age, I do not think they will ever truly heal.  None were related to training martial arts, but they happened anyway.


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## KydeX (Nov 7, 2012)

Thx for the advice. I wasn't exactly looking for medical advice, so not being a doctor is no problem to me. Most doctors advice against any kind of MA anyway.

I was more interested in opinions and personal experience. Since I am not a kid anymore, the body is not as flexible as it used to be


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 7, 2012)

KydeX said:


> Thx for the advice. I wasn't exactly looking for medical advice, so not being a doctor is no problem to me. Most doctors advice against any kind of MA anyway.
> 
> I was more interested in opinions and personal experience. Since I am not a kid anymore, the body is not as flexible as it used to be



Being older, I would say that muscular injuries I have suffered while training take a long time to heal.  In a few cases, it appears that I have done myself a long-lasting mischief.  I don't know what else to say.  Some things, when borked, stay borked.  Your mileage may vary.


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## James Kovacich (Nov 7, 2012)

To add to what Bill has said. As we get older, what we did when we were younger, which for me was martial arts and weight training, can and will affect our bodies. I think people may believe that training is all positive. But there are negative affects directly related to the way we train. I've always pushed myself really hard physically. In 2004 while FMA stick sparring, I tore my right bicep (I'm right handed). Although I believe it happened do to my overall training for many many years, I also think that I didn't have enough rest time in between weight training and MA training, in this case the extreme movements full speed stick sparring. I live with my permanent injury and thinking back at "what ifs" won't help. It is to late.

Listen to your body. And understand that some techniques can be practiced more extreme than others. Tweaking the joints in my opinion is not a good thing. That's the whole point of "tapping out" when grappling.



Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


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## KydeX (Nov 7, 2012)

Well, we do use the tapout system, but not everyone stops immediately, and the instructors are the worst at this. The idea is to "toughen" us and to keep the training more realistic. Also, some techniques are worse than others, like elbow throws. Those are hard to tap out of... I don't have a problem in getting a beating and seeing that the techniques work, I am just speculating that it might not always be healthy. And I guess that's what you guys think too.

I'm probably not gonna stop though since it's fun training, but I'll try to be careful.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 7, 2012)

KydeX said:


> Well, we do use the tapout system, but not everyone stops immediately, and the instructors are the worst at this. The idea is to "toughen" us and to keep the training more realistic. Also, some techniques are worse than others, like elbow throws. Those are hard to tap out of... I don't have a problem in getting a beating and seeing that the techniques work, I am just speculating that it might not always be healthy. And I guess that's what you guys think too.
> 
> I'm probably not gonna stop though since it's fun training, but I'll try to be careful.



Sounds like you have some choices to make.  Hopefully your choices now because it is 'fun' won't cause problems you'll wish you didn't have when get older.

I have a hip that pops out of joint from time to time; fortunately it is not painful, but it is annoying when it happens.  Happened when I was 16, hot-dogging on a motorcycle and did an endo; the bike rode me for awhile.

My hip stays borked.  If that prospect doesn't bother you, then go on and do as you wish.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 7, 2012)

Personally, i don't see any huge benefit of not letting go when someone taps out, unless its for a demonstration or something. It's dangerous to continue with something like that, may go too far, and after the first time it doesn't "teach" you anything you don't know (it can hurt like a b***h if someone gets a lock on you). Outside of that, I haven't had any permanent injury from over a decade of practicing, but I am only 19 so don't think it can apply to everyone


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## gregtca (Nov 8, 2012)

I think you already know the answer, just look at your post , train hard but with some degree of intelligence , if it hurts and is causing you issues after a week then some thing you are doin is most likely wrong , or that which is being done to you , listen to your body


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## KydeX (Nov 8, 2012)

Yeah, guess I just gotta get better at speaking out where my limits are. I haven't heard of anyone in the dojo that has had real injuries though, except for accidents, like rolling into a wall or something.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 8, 2012)

KydeX said:


> Thx for the advice. I wasn't exactly looking for medical advice, so not being a doctor is no problem to me. Most doctors advice against any kind of MA anyway.



Really? That's odd to hear. Looking around the ER right this minute I see 3  black belts (including me) and a red belt. And that's just the staff...


If the pain resolves in a couple days, it's unlikely to be a permanent injury. However, it is also undeniable that what we do for fun has great potential for real injury. It's important to resist, since an excessively compliant partner limits your learning. Obviously, this ought to end short of permanent injury. It doesn't really sound to me (albeit this is extremely limited since I haven't actually examined you) that you have any permanent injury. Tap out and/or talk to your partners about how much pressure is to be used. Your instructor, of all people, ought to grasp the concept of not breaking students.


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## KydeX (Nov 8, 2012)

I don't feel like I have a permanent injury, but I was wondering if there could be problems in the long run, training joint locks a bit hard.

With regards to my instructor, he's been doing this for more than 30 yrs, and I guess he learnt it the "hard" way himself .


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## Cyriacus (Nov 8, 2012)

Question: When Your Instructor does these joint things, does He do them quickly, or slowly? 
From what I know of grappling, most joint locks are applied slowly (as opposed to rapidly) for safety reasons. 
Whereas, beginners tend to lock things in quickly, which is where beginners can be more dangerous than senior students. They snap it in, rather than slide it in, so to speak. 

Again, I am only speaking from what I know of grappling. I do know, though, that any joint manipulation is designed to damage stuff in the event of non-compliance, or at least cause pain. Hence 'tapping out'. You dont tap out when you get sick of dealing with the pain, you tap out when the hold gets locked in tighter despite your resistance and you feel like somethings going to break in half. If you snap it in straight to that breaking point, it will probably break. Whereas if its eased into it, its less likely to. If its held in place for too long with a great deal of pressure, you will not 'toughen up', youll tear stuff. And one day, you might seriously injure something, and it might take years to heal.

If its being applied harder than your body can take, or faster than your body can deal with it, that could be causing problems, is what im suggesting?


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## KydeX (Nov 8, 2012)

Good reply. To answer your question, when my instructor goes hard, he does it slowly. If he needs to do something fast, it is usually not that hard. It might be like you are saying, that he keeps pushing sometimes because we are tapping out because we just don't like the pain, and that he knows from experience that he can safely push a bit further. Guess I'll have to ask him that.

Sometimes the pain is excruciating though..


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 8, 2012)

KydeX said:


> ... not everyone stops immediately, and the instructors are the worst at this.



This is not a good thing.  If you are teaching a technique to the class and your uke taps, it can be okay to back off the technique to relieve the pressure but still maintain the position for demonstration purposes.  However if the teachers or students make a habit of maintaining pressure after uke taps, someone is going to get injured sooner or later.


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## Aiki Lee (Nov 8, 2012)

The purpose of tapping during training is to say "I've reached the physical limit, any more and you will injure me." causing pain in the dojo is fine and expected but injuries need to be avoided. Injuring someone to " toughen them up" is idiocy as all injuring some one does is make them weaker. It is unacceptable for a person to ignore someones tap out. That's negligence and could open up the whole school for lawsuits. Some idiot hyperextended my teachers elbow and it never healed properly. Don't let that happen to you.


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## Steve (Nov 8, 2012)

The one thing that sets off some red flags for me are that your partners AND your instructor fail to stop when you tap.  That's inexcusable to me.  While there are some submissions and techniques that make it difficult to stop mid-roll, for a training partner or instructor to hold a submission past the tap is dangerous and unnecessary.

In my opinion, it is the responsibility of the more experienced person to look out for the safety of his "partner."  This means letting a submission go even if your partner doesn't tap because often an inexperienced uke doesn't know enough to know they're in danger.  And it means stopping a technique even if you know that your partner wasn't in danger.  In other words, there are times when someone will tap too early because they just don't understand the situation they're in or how to intelligently defend it.  There are other times when someone will tap too late (or not at all) because they just don't understand the situation they're in or how to intelligently defend it.  As an upper belt, senior student, instructor or just plain nice guy, it's up to you to help your partner improve.  It doesn't mean unnecessarily risking their long term health and safety to try and "toughen them up."


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## KydeX (Nov 8, 2012)

A lot of good replies here. Just to clarify one thing though, by "toughen up", I meant mentally, not physically. I understand that you cannot train joints to get stronger like you can with muscles


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## Steve (Nov 8, 2012)

KydeX said:


> A lot of good replies here. Just to clarify one thing though, by "toughen up", I meant mentally, not physically. I understand that you cannot train joints to get stronger like you can with muscles


Understood.  The way I would "toughen up" a less experienced training partner is to stop when they ask me to (ie, tap out).   If they tap too early, I would still stop executing the technique.  In most cases, I would just take a second and show them how to escape next time, and the next time we spar, I'd make sure I put them in a similar situation so that they would have an opportunity to work it out.  I hope this makes sense.


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## jks9199 (Nov 8, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> The purpose of tapping during training is to say "I've reached the physical limit, any more and you will injure me." causing pain in the dojo is fine and expected but injuries need to be avoided. Injuring someone to " toughen them up" is idiocy as all injuring some one does is make them weaker. It is unacceptable for a person to ignore someones tap out. That's negligence and could open up the whole school for lawsuits. Some idiot hyperextended my teachers elbow and it never healed properly. Don't let that happen to you.



There's a lot of truth here -- but sometimes, an instructor does know that the student is tapping too quickly, and may hold it slightly longer or go a little further to show them.  That said -- the action should be paired with an explanation, especially if it's a case of a student tapping WAY early (I've had students tap almost before they were even touched...).  It shouldn't be a routine case of "I tap, teacher puts me in extra pain."


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## Buka (Nov 8, 2012)

Yup.


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## Aiki Lee (Nov 9, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> There's a lot of truth here -- but sometimes, an instructor does know that the student is tapping too quickly, and may hold it slightly longer or go a little further to show them.  That said -- the action should be paired with an explanation, especially if it's a case of a student tapping WAY early (I've had students tap almost before they were even touched...).  It shouldn't be a routine case of "I tap, teacher puts me in extra pain."



I agree. Some newer students or more timid ones will tap out of the fear of pain rather than pain itself. It is important to eliminate this fear, but I would always err on the side of caution. If I'm not sure if the person is just scared or in pain I will let go because they may not be as flexible as I think they are and I shouldn't risk it.


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## garet jax (Nov 11, 2012)

KydeX said:


> With regards to my instructor, he's been doing this for more than 30 years, and I guess he learnt it the "hard" way himself .



First off, some questions for you:

Who is your instructor? 

What exactly has your instructor been doing for "more than 30 years"? 

Who is _his_ instructor? 

From whom has he learned what he is teaching you?

Speaking from my own limited personal experience training at the dojo of a Japanese menkyo kaiden, I'll tell you that the goal of any good instructor is the same: to transmit the technique without injuring his student in any way. I know this is possible because I've had to learn to do that from experience. It isn't easy. Not by a long shot. But it is possible. If your current instructor can't or won't do this then he shouldn't be instructing anybody.

It might help you to remember that very few people are good at teaching. If you are no longer a kid and all grown up now then you'll use your brain when you train. You will get hurt and may very well get injured. But pain is simply a natural by product of the practice that should NEVER be perceived as some sort of substitute for what the technique is supposed to be teaching you. Attempting to utilize pain as a teaching method is stupid because it is pointless; yes, I get it: pressuring my bone structure beyond a certain point when it is misaligned causes me to go "ouch". Thank you for imparting this mystic wisdom, mighty sensei.

Just some fast food for thought.


- Mark Spada


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## KydeX (Nov 30, 2012)

Sorry that I haven't been on the forum for a while.

To your questions:

I don't really wanna put my instructors name on the internet. Who he initially trained under when he started out, I am not sure. He has gotten most of his instruction from Japan and the Shihans there, including Masaaki Hatsumi. He is probably the highest ranking instructor in my country.

I still see your points. Thank you for replying.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 30, 2012)

Oh, the Secret Insturctor thing again....

That *never* sets off red flags for others. Never. Really.


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## KydeX (Nov 30, 2012)

I don't really care about that, because it has nothing to do with my original question. Whether my instructors are qualified or if their way of instruction is correct is secondary.

I was merely wondering if going home from practice with sore joints every now and then could give any long term problems. It seems as if most here think it can.

I still think my instructors teach effective self defence, I'll just have to be a bit careful and let some of them know that some of my joints are just not as flexible as they seem to think


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## garet jax (Dec 1, 2012)

KydeX said:


> I don't really wanna put my instructors name on the internet. Who he initially trained under when he started out, I am not sure. He has gotten most of his instruction from Japan and the Shihans there, including Masaaki Hatsumi. He is probably the highest ranking instructor in my country.




Why don't you want to reveal the name of your teacher? Are you ashamed of him or embarrassed to train at his dojo?

It should go without saying that your teacher never actually "trained with" Hatsumi sensei. Many people have made this claim, to be sure. What they really mean is that they were in the same room as Hatsumi sensei and observed his movement. But they did not in fact interact with him they way they would with another training partner.

It should also go without saying that your teacher may indeed be the highest ranking instructor in your country, wherever that is. But it's a moot point considering that rank in the Bujinkan organization is meaningless.


- Mark Spada


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## garet jax (Dec 1, 2012)

KydeX said:


> I don't really care about that, because it has nothing to do with my original question. Whether my instructors are qualified or if their way of instruction is correct is secondary.
> 
> I still think my instructors teach effective self defense




Your instructor's qualifications have everything to do with whether or not you are being injured during practice. If your instructor is pefforming the technique correctly and moving properly, the potential for injury during practice would be minimal at best.

Why do you think your instructor teaches effective self-defense? The koryu disseminated within the Bujinkan organization have absolutely nothing to do with self-defense.


- Mark Spada


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 2, 2012)

KydeX said:


> I was merely wondering if going home from practice with sore joints every now and then could give any long term problems. It seems as if most here think it can.
> 
> I still think my instructors teach effective self defence, I'll just have to be a bit careful and let some of them know that some of my joints are just not as flexible as they seem to think



It kind of depends what you really mean by sore joints. Soreness is expected to a degree, but you shouldn't feel the need to ice yourself down every night because of pain. The whole point of self-defense is to keep yourself safe from harm, yeah? I do think that just bringing it up to them should get them to lighten up a bit. That is, unless your training partners are A-holes. Let us know how they respond.


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 2, 2012)

garet jax said:


> Why don't you want to reveal the name of your teacher? Are you ashamed of him or embarrassed to train at his dojo?



He probably doesn't want random, annonymous people on the internet to view his instructor as overly cruel or neglectful of proper training methods. Anything can be skewed on the web and taken out of context rather easily. I assume KydeX is trying to avoid dragging his teacher through the mud without cause, but that is just my guess. If he doesn't want to reveal him, I don't think we should pressure him for a name.



garet jax said:


> It should go without saying that your teacher never actually "trained with" Hatsumi sensei. Many people have made this claim, to be sure. What they really mean is that they were in the same room as Hatsumi sensei and observed his movement. But they did not in fact interact with him they way they would with another training partner.



"Trained with" could also be taken as "trained under", in which case could include direct supervision from Hatsumi himself. It would depend when he started training. He could have just been another face in the crowd at the Hombu, or his actual training partners could include people like Tanemura, Manaka, Shirashi, and Nagato for all we know. 



garet jax said:


> It should also go without saying that your teacher may indeed be the highest ranking instructor in your country, wherever that is. But it's a moot point considering that rank in the Bujinkan organization is meaningless.



Yeah rank in the Bujinkan can be arbitrary, but just cause some 10th dans are bad, doesn't mean KydeX's instructor isn't good at what he does. It's possible he could have some ranking in the actual ryuha as well.



garet jax said:


> Your instructor's qualifications have everything to do with whether or not you are being injured during practice. If your instructor is pefforming the technique correctly and moving properly, the potential for injury during practice would be minimal at best.



Yes and no, I think. Yes, an instructor should be skilled enough to know whether is student can or can't properly recieve a technique without serious risk of injury, but it is not that uncommon to find instructors who are used to harder applications of techniques. It could be that his instructor is being too rough, possibly negligent, or it could be that KydeX is just far less flexible than the other students. We don't know; and I don't think we are in a clear enough position to question the legitimacy or quality of his instructor's skill or teaching ability.



garet jax said:


> Why do you think your instructor teaches effective self-defense? The koryu disseminated within the Bujinkan organization have absolutely nothing to do with self-defense.



Well, I would argue that some of the kata found in togakure ryu are very much about self-defense, but that is beside the point. The Bujinkan does not necessarily teach the koryu as the way the were originally presented. The Bujinkan emphasises its training through Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Many, many principles and skills can very easily be trained from a self-defense perspective. So while many of the arts in the Bujinkan many not have been originally intended for self-defense, I would completely disagree with the assertation that they "have absolutely nothing to do with self-defense"


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## garet jax (Dec 2, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> He probably doesn't want random, annonymous people on the internet to view his instructor as overly cruel or neglectful of proper training methods. Anything can be skewed on the web and taken out of context rather easily. I assume KydeX is trying to avoid dragging his teacher through the mud without cause, but that is just my guess. If he doesn't want to reveal him, I don't think we should pressure him for a name.




By this assertion, he shouldn't have bothered lowering himself into the so-called "mud" with the rest of us in the first place. What happened to this world? Is it a generation Y or Z thing? Surely the geeks have inherited the earth; the world seems no longer to be populated by men, but rather by grown teenagers who purport to practice "warrior" arts....while simultaneously quivering in their tabi when confronted with a direct question on an internet discussion forum. 

Whatever his reasoning, this guy's teacher is not a fragile, exotic pet. Neither is he an untouchable demigod who resides in some higher stratosphere. There are no special rules for behavior in the dojo that somehow evaporate off the mat. Asking someone the identity of their teacher isn't any different than asking who their parents are and where they come from. 

And refusing to answer direct questions regarding subject matter one regards as anything but shameful is cowardice. 


- Mark Spada


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## garet jax (Dec 2, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> The Bujinkan does not necessarily teach the koryu as the way they were originally presented.




The Bujinkan does not teach the koryu because the Bujinkan is an organization.

In what way were the koryu "originally" presented? Can you please substantiate this claim?


- Mark Spada


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## KydeX (Dec 3, 2012)

@Himura Kenshin: you are correct in most of your assumptions. Thx for trying to see my side of things.

@Garet Jax: I still don't see the point in turning this into a discussion about my instructor. Sure, he could be the most incompetent idiot who ever practiced in the Bujinkan, but it's still irrelevant to the original question, which was more of a medical question. Whether you think I'm a coward or not does not really concern me. I am merely respecting his privacy, as he would probably not want his name put out here.


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## garet jax (Dec 3, 2012)

KydeX said:


> I still don't see the point in turning this into a discussion about my instructor. Sure, he could be the most incompetent idiot who ever practiced in the Bujinkan, but it's still irrelevant to the original question, which was more of a medical question. Whether you think I'm a coward or not does not really concern me. I am merely respecting his privacy, as he would probably not want his name put out here.




You were the one who inculcated your instructor by coming on here and asking people if the way in which your instructor is instructing you is unhealthy in the long term. In other words, if you were so concerned about respecting your instructor's privacy then you would have stayed away from the board in the first place. This is, of course, disregarding the fact that internet privacy is a complete fallacy.

My point still stands. Refusing to answer a direct question that in reality does not in any way violate anyone's privacy is weak, plain and simple. Please explain to me how me knowing your instructor's name in any way impacts on him or his relationship with you. Unless he is an "incompetent idiot", as you put it, and you are ashamed of your association with him.

If you feel that the relationship you have with this instructor is in any way beneficial then more power to you. But knowing who your teacher is, who he practiced with and still practices with, is not only relevant to the topic of discussion it is important to your own training. The Bujinkan is not some sort of fraternal club, the members of which all support each other and are on the same page. The Bujinkan is merely an organizational body that hands out rank through the hombu dojo in Noda. Your instructor could be teaching you a mishmash of disparate component skills and theories based on piss poor experience that have nothing whatsoever to do with the koryu that Hatsumi sensei inherited from his teacher. If you're okay with that, great....perhaps you're the sort who is content to spend their time associating with an "incompetent idiot", as you put it. But don't go crying to anyone when he ends ups directly or inadvertently causing you short or long term injury as a result.


- Mark Spada


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## jks9199 (Dec 3, 2012)

Folks, reign it in a tad.  MT's rules don't require him to identify his instructor, and it's not all that relevant. 

He's got concerns about soreness after training.  Yep, you can certainly do serious or permanent damage if you train too hard or take joints too far.   He probably should discuss it with his instructor and seniors, and see whether they're doing this with care and good intentions, or because they have fun putting him in pain.


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 3, 2012)

garet jax said:


> By this assertion, he shouldn't have bothered lowering himself into the so-called "mud" with the rest of us in the first place. What happened to this world? Is it a generation Y or Z thing? Surely the geeks have inherited the earth; the world seems no longer to be populated by men, but rather by grown teenagers who purport to practice "warrior" arts....while simultaneously quivering in their tabi when confronted with a direct question on an internet discussion forum.



What I meant was that a lot of damage can be done to a person's reputation based on hearsay or what's written on the internet. If the OP were to reveal his teacher's name, one could do a google search for that name, end up hear and may come to the possibly false conclusion that the teacher is negligent of proper saftey in the dojo.



garet jax said:


> And refusing to answer direct questions regarding subject matter one regards as anything but shameful is cowardice.
> 
> - Mark Spada



No. It's prudence.


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 3, 2012)

garet jax said:


> The Bujinkan does not teach the koryu because the Bujinkan is an organization.



The Bujinkan as an organization teaches Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.



garet jax said:


> In what way were the koryu "originally" presented? Can you please substantiate this claim?.



 Before the formation of the Bujinkan the schools still existed and were passed on as individual systems. Now the Bujinkan teaches Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is more of an amalgamation of the principles than the specific individual ryuha themselves. They may teach specific kata from each ryuha, but that does not mean you are going to sign up in the bujinkan and expect to be taught and ranked in Togakure ryu.


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## garet jax (Dec 4, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Before the formation of the Bujinkan the schools still existed and were passed on as individual systems. Now the Bujinkan teaches Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is more of an amalgamation of the principles than the specific individual ryuha themselves. They may teach specific kata from each ryuha, but that does not mean you are going to sign up in the bujinkan and expect to be taught and ranked in Togakure ryu.




Thanks for the wikipedia article. But the Bujinkan as an organization doesn't teach anything. I have been presented with specific kata from specific ryu-ha in Japanese dojo. It wasn't "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu". Every time I have ever been presented with "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" it has bared little resemblance to the last iteration of the term, each after each different from the last. I agree that it is an amalgamation, but it is an amalgamation concocted mostly by various gaijin instructors around the world over the past several decades.

In any case, this subject has nothing to do with the topic being discussed.


- Mark Spada


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 5, 2012)

garet jax said:


> Thanks for the wikipedia article. But the Bujinkan as an organization doesn't teach anything. I have been presented with specific kata from specific ryu-ha in Japanese dojo. It wasn't "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu". Every time I have ever been presented with "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" it has bared little resemblance to the last iteration of the term, each after each different from the last. I agree that it is an amalgamation, but it is an amalgamation concocted mostly by various gaijin instructors around the world over the past several decades.



So when you meet requirements, you are presented with certification of the kata rather than an overall rank in BBT? I have not heard of this happening, but then again, I am not in the bujinkan and am going based mostly on what others have said here on MT.




garet jax said:


> In any case, this subject has nothing to do with the topic being discussed.



Uh...you asked me for clarification, but okay.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 5, 2012)

garet jax said:


> In any case, this subject has nothing to do with the topic being discussed.


I'm kind of surprised you know that, since you were the one who brought it off topic by quizzing him about his teacher, and the organization in general. What does it matter to you if his instructor is a legitimate instructor or not? He came and asked for medical advice, we gave the best advice we could through an internet forum without actually examining him, and thats that. End of discussion. If you want, start another thread about the legitimacy of his lineage, or whatever you guys are talking about concerning bujinkan budo taijutsu (tbh, not sure exactly what the argument is since I don't have any vested knowledge/interest in Bujinkan). But make that a different thread, don't just continue it on this one.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 5, 2012)

Garet-you may want to read these, for future reference.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...um-Rules-and-Procedures-Revised-March-29-2011


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## garet jax (Dec 5, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> I'm kind of surprised you know that, since you were the one who brought it off topic by quizzing him about his teacher, and the organization in general. What does it matter to you if his instructor is a legitimate instructor or not? He came and asked for medical advice, we gave the best advice we could through an internet forum without actually examining him, and thats that. End of discussion. If you want, start another thread about the legitimacy of his lineage, or whatever you guys are talking about concerning bujinkan budo taijutsu (tbh, not sure exactly what the argument is since I don't have any vested knowledge/interest in Bujinkan). But make that a different thread, don't just continue it on this one.




The point behind what you quoted of me was just that: to end the discussion. Coming on here, when you admit to not having any vested interest in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, was obviously to throw some weight around and condescend to me by reminding me that there are rules to this forum....none of which I have broken. If you're not a mod and not a practitioner of ninjutsu, why are you even here?

*"The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions."*

By the way, Miyamoto Musashi never said that. Eiji Yoshikawa did.


- Mark Spada


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 5, 2012)

garet jax said:


> The point behind what you quoted of me was just that: to end the discussion. Coming on here, when you admit to not having any vested interest in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, was obviously to throw some weight around and condescend to me by reminding me that there are rules to this forum....none of which I have broken. If you're not a mod and not a practitioner of ninjutsu, why are you even here?
> 
> *"The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions."*
> 
> ...


So you get to start a discussion, and decide when it ends? Interesting. 
As for me coming on here, I came to this thread when I saw it in the new post section, if you look, I posted in a related post to the thread at the time. I generally continue reading threads after I post in case something comes up or I'm quoted, or something similar. 

 And trust me, i don't believe I have any weight to 'throw around', no one really does in an internet forum, outside of the mods. If you made the other thread, and that went out of hand, I wouldn't care because I have no business in that thread. 

I wasn't condescending so much as berating you..something i do to people I respect as well when I feel they deserve it.

The rule I was referring to was the 1.10.3, individual/fraud bashing, since IMO, you implied that his teacher was illegitimate when you stated that he was lying about who he trained with/under, the 4.9 off topic posts, since you went off topic, and 1.1, since you were not respectful of your fellow members. (FYI on that last one, I don't consider my post disrespectful so much as candid). I was however refraining to pointing all of them out, as well as reporting you for that behavior, since you hadn't posted much and may not have been aware of the rules, which is why I posted them so you knew where to find them.

To be perfectly honest, it doesn't matter to me who said it, and I don't see why it matters to you. But I heard that it was Miyamoto Musashi, and after a quick google search of the words, the first two links attribute it to Miyamoto Musashi, so I'll leave it as Miyamoto Musashi.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 5, 2012)

Hi Mark,



garet jax said:


> Thanks for the wikipedia article.



That was hardly a wiki article from Himura there, it was an answer to your question. And it was accurate.



garet jax said:


> But the Bujinkan as an organization doesn't teach anything.



You know, I keep hearing that, and bluntly, it's garbage. Yes, it absolutely does teach things. It teaches the martial arts approach of Hatsumi Masaaki, which is known as Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. The argument that "the organisation doesn't teach anything, the teachers in the organisation do" is the same as saying that Toyota (the company) doesn't make cars, the robots and workers in the factories make cars. Without there being the company/organisation, there isn't anything to be made or taught. 

In other words, your argument is a flawed semantic one which fails to grasp reality.



garet jax said:


> I have been presented with specific kata from specific ryu-ha in Japanese dojo.



And? How does that make it training in Koryu? Honestly, Mark, I don't think you have much real grasp on what Koryu, or Ryu-ha training actually is... as you're looking at exactly the wrong thing.



garet jax said:


> It wasn't "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu". Every time I have ever been presented with "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" it has bared little resemblance to the last iteration of the term, each after each different from the last.



("Bore" little resemblance...) Yeah, that's again not entirely understanding the point, or the distinction.



garet jax said:


> I agree that it is an amalgamation, but it is an amalgamation concocted mostly by various gaijin instructors around the world over the past several decades.



Uh... nope. It's an amalgamation concocted, if you want to use that word, by Hatsumi Masaaki. It may be disseminated by "gaijin instructors", and the methods of dissemination may have a fair degree of variance between what is shown in Japan and in their Western dojo, but it still comes down to them showing their understanding and expression of what is presented by Hatsumi. Honestly mate, that's the reality. Deal with it.



garet jax said:


> In any case, this subject has nothing to do with the topic being discussed.



So why did you ask?


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## garet jax (Dec 5, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> The rule I was referring to was the 1.10.3, individual/fraud bashing, since IMO, you implied that his teacher was illegitimate when you stated that he was lying about who he trained with/under, the 4.9 off topic posts, since you went off topic, and 1.1, since you were not respectful of your fellow members.




I never implied that his teacher was illegitimate, because I never stated that he was lying about who he trained with/under. I only asked him who his teacher was, and that is not in any way being disrespectful of my fellow members. Anyone caring to go back and read this thread can easily see that.

In any case, if you're not a moderator then it isn't your job to discern anything about my "behavior". I'll presume that a mod is possessed of enough objectivity to see that you and the Himura kid are just as guilty of causing thread drift here. 

So unless you and I actually have something to contribute to the discussion, why don't we just call it a day here and now.

By the way, my name, as indicated by the signature at the end of each post, is not "garet"....it's Mr. Spada. Thanks.


- Mark Spada


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## Chris Parker (Dec 5, 2012)

Careful, Mark, you don't want to go down the path you've tread before....



garet jax said:


> I never implied that his teacher was illegitimate, because I never stated that he was lying about who he trained with/under. I only asked him who his teacher was, and that is *not in any way being disrespectful of my fellow members*. Anyone caring to go back and read this thread can easily see that.
> 
> In any case, if you're not a moderator then it isn't your job to discern anything about my "behavior". I'll presume that a mod is possessed of enough objectivity to see that *you and the Himura kid* are just as guilty of causing thread drift here.
> 
> ...



See any contradictions...?


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## garet jax (Dec 5, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hi, Chris. You may consider this reply a kind of form letter, as it could be applicable to virtually anything you post on one of these forums.

Despite your labor intensive efforts, you have a very long way to go to convince myself and a lot of other people that you understand anything at all about the koryu that Hatsumi sensei inherited from Takamatsu sensei, or about the study and practice of koryu in general. Given that you are continually questioned and proven wrong in your statements, you really just end up coming across as a more erudite version of Gary Arthur. This comparison is brought into stark relief in light of the fact that your movement is just as bad if not worse than Gary's, if what I've seen on youtube is anything to go by. You may have convinced a few naive teenagers of the veracity of your viewpoints and opinions, but the rest of us know full well just how full of crap you are. You don't seem to even understand how to hold a sword; how are any of us to respect you or your notions about koryu?

In short, you are the last one who should be preaching stentorian about "reality", to myself or anyone else. Please keep your tepid brand of kool-aid to yourself.


- Mark Spada


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## Chris Parker (Dec 5, 2012)

Mark,

The only people who think they've "proven me wrong" about Koryu are Bujinkan members such as yourself, who have shown gigantic gaps in their understanding. Koryu practitioners actually tend to agree with me. Constantly. Oh, and I'm not on you-tube in a martial capacity. So consider this a form letter.

When you can accurately describe the difference between Bujinkan training and Koryu training, you might have a chance at a conversation. At present, you're an arrogant soul (yeah, coming from me, that's quite a statement) who is so full of his own delusion that there is no real way to talk to you. Now, I've known this for a long time, but others here aren't so lucky as to have come up against you much before, so this is my way of saying that your opinions, like Will Ustav's, Richard Maiers and a few others, are based in the beliefs of someone who really doesn't have the pedigree or background you all seem to stake your perspectives on. If you ever actually train in a Koryu, you might see this. But, for now, you don't listen, so this is more for others.

Enjoy.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 5, 2012)

Ladies and gentlemen, if you find during your discourses here that there  is a point of view that you simply cannot reconcile yourselves to, then  the simplest of approaches is not to take part in threads that contain  that view.

Likewise, if there is a particular poster that you cannot respond to  civilly or that you feel has breached the regulations of the forum in  some fashion, then there are two tools available to you to cope with  this:

If you cannot get along with someone else, then place them on your  Ignore List.

If a breach of the regulations has occurred then use the RTM function so  that the Staff can deal with the problem.

The temptation to "have it out" in a public forum should be resisted at  all costs.

Mark Cochran
MT Moderator


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## Aiki Lee (Dec 5, 2012)

The "Himura kid" votes for a thread lock. The OP has his answer and I see nothing positive emerging from this line of discussion.


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## Gnarlie (Dec 5, 2012)

Himura Kenshin said:


> The "Himura kid"....



....is actually quite an awesome sounding name.  Sounds like something from Western.  See your point about the discussion though.


Gnarlie


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## KydeX (Dec 5, 2012)

Before the thread is eventually closed, I'd like to thank those that have given me good answers. Off-topic stuff I will refrain from commenting on, except that I appreciate those that's been able to view things from my point of view.

And I'm still training a lot and being more careful. No injuries yet. Hopefully it'll stay that way


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## Tez3 (Dec 5, 2012)

KydeX said:


> Before the thread is eventually closed, I'd like to thank those that have given me good answers. Off-topic stuff I will refrain from commenting on, except that I appreciate those that's been able to view things from my point of view.
> 
> And I'm still training a lot and being more careful. No injuries yet. Hopefully it'll stay that way



I can say that if you get a crown (a tooth one) knocked out superglue is highly recommended, works for me anyway lol. Stay safe.


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## The Last Legionary (Dec 5, 2012)

garet jax said:


> If you're not a mod and not a practitioner of ninjutsu, why are you even here?



Because this forum isn't so anal as to check your pedigree before allowing you access. 



kempodisciple said:


> The rule I was referring to was the 1.10.3, individual/fraud bashing, since IMO, you implied that his teacher was illegitimate when you stated that he was lying about who he trained with/under, the 4.9 off topic posts, since you went off topic, and 1.1, since you were not respectful of your fellow members. (FYI on that last one, I don't consider my post disrespectful so much as candid). I was however refraining to pointing all of them out, as well as reporting you for that behavior, since you hadn't posted much and may not have been aware of the rules, which is why I posted them so you knew where to find them.



Good advice since almost no one ever reads the rules before they say they did and register. Either makes them stupid or liars. 



garet jax said:


> In any case, if you're not a moderator then it isn't your job to discern anything about my "behavior". I'll presume that a mod is possessed of enough objectivity to see that you and the Himura kid are just as guilty of causing thread drift here.



I'm not a mod here, but you're being a bit of a jerk. I'm sure one will be along shortly though.  Oh lookie:



Dirty Dog said:


> Ladies and gentlemen, if you find during your discourses here that there  is a point of view that you simply cannot reconcile yourselves to, then  the simplest of approaches is not to take part in threads that contain  that view.
> 
> Likewise, if there is a particular poster that you cannot respond to  civilly or that you feel has breached the regulations of the forum in  some fashion, then there are two tools available to you to cope with  this:
> 
> ...



In case it wasn't clear, that's a moderator. I made it bigger.
Ok, back to black pajamas, and poofing in the smoking, froidlaven!


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