# Counters To The Disarms



## MJS (Dec 9, 2011)

What are your thoughts on these?  Do you teach them?  Is there any serious value in them or would time be better spent on other things in the art?

They're not part of our required material, though some do teach them.  Personally, while I can see doing them for the sake of the art, I think that time may be better spent on other areas.

Anyone else?


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## Guro Harold (Dec 9, 2011)

Yes, I like them and showed them a few months ago. They are cool because there are not 12 counter disarms since some techniques work on several angles and the #1 counter action mechanism ("The Choo Choo Train"} is used for more complex techniques like the "Power Figure 8 Trap".


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## Buka (Dec 9, 2011)

I think that would depend on what weapon. So.....what weapon?


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## Guro Harold (Dec 10, 2011)

Buka said:


> I think that would depend on what weapon. So.....what weapon?


Hi, the technique in question deals with arnis sticks. Thanks.


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## Mark Lynn (Dec 16, 2011)

Guro Harold said:


> Yes, I like them and showed them a few months ago. They are cool because there are not 12 counter disarms since some techniques work on several angles and the #1 counter action mechanism ("The Choo Choo Train"} is used for more complex techniques like the "Power Figure 8 Trap".



Ok I have to ask  what are the "ChooChoo Train" and the "Power Figure 8 Trap"?  Can you describe them?

Mark


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## Mark Lynn (Dec 16, 2011)

I like the counters to the disarms and I do teach them (or I teach some counters to some different disarms) but not that often.  I mean with my students I spend a lot of time working on the basics more so that counters to disarms.


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## Guro Harold (Dec 16, 2011)

The Boar Man said:


> Ok I have to ask  what are the "ChooChoo Train" and the "Power Figure 8 Trap"?  Can you describe them?
> 
> Mark



Hi Mark,

These were the phrases association with the mechanics of the techniques.

Choo Choo - Visualize the #1 counter disarm, after the defender grabs the opponents right hand and use it to clear the opponent left hand, the defender uses their right hand with the punyo to disarm the opponent's stick with a circular motion.

Power Figure Eight - defender blocks # 2 strike, seized opponent's stick hand at wrist, then executes upward figure eights as a ward off and presents Punyo to left ear as bait, opponent grabs defender's wrist, defender then uses punyo to trap opponents left hand which causes an S-lock. Defender then strips opponent's stick against opponent's left trapped arm and places right wrist on top of opponent's left wrist and then defender traps both wrist with their punyo. This is followed by an arm bar The trap is shown below starting at about 1:43 sec. Just like in the video, the opponent can slip out but you have the arm bar as a backup.

[video=youtube_share;Er99t7SvuUg]http://youtu.be/Er99t7SvuUg?t=1m43s[/video]


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## Mark Lynn (Dec 19, 2011)

Harold

Thanks


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## fangjian (Dec 19, 2011)

MJS said:


> What are your thoughts on these?  Do you teach them?  Is there any serious value in them or would time be better spent on other things in the art?
> 
> They're not part of our required material, though some do teach them.  Personally, while I can see doing them for the sake of the art, I think that time may be better spent on other areas.
> 
> Anyone else?


I guess it is depending on what your goals are for learning Eskrima. 

But assuming the goal is to 'be an Eskrimador', than memorizing countless 'techniques' is a bit counterproductive. I know there exist many FMA schools that teach like 100,000 applications/techniques but truly lack the reflexes to pull them off. Especially 'disarm counters'. If someone is attempting to disarm you, all you need to know is a couple small movements that will cancel out the attempt. No need to memorize a billion disarm counter applications because these few movements work for pretty much all of them. 

But if the goal is more like _a hobby,_ and memorizing techniques is fun for you, than it's important. Like practitioners of Gong Fu. There are some people who simply just love learning 'new forms'. We like to call them 'form collectors'. They know like 100-200 different types of routines. But the basics of Gong Fu are simply not there. As soon as they finish the last movement of the routine, _that's it_. They know it now, and can add that form _to their collection_. I am not criticizing people like that. I like to learn new stuff too.


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## MJS (Dec 19, 2011)

fangjian said:


> I guess it is depending on what your goals are for learning Eskrima.
> 
> But assuming the goal is to 'be an Eskrimador', than memorizing countless 'techniques' is a bit counterproductive. I know there exist many FMA schools that teach like 100,000 applications/techniques but truly lack the reflexes to pull them off. Especially 'disarm counters'. If someone is attempting to disarm you, all you need to know is a couple small movements that will cancel out the attempt. No need to memorize a billion disarm counter applications because these few movements work for pretty much all of them.
> 
> But if the goal is more like _a hobby,_ and memorizing techniques is fun for you, than it's important. Like practitioners of Gong Fu. There are some people who simply just love learning 'new forms'. We like to call them 'form collectors'. They know like 100-200 different types of routines. But the basics of Gong Fu are simply not there. As soon as they finish the last movement of the routine, _that's it_. They know it now, and can add that form _to their collection_. I am not criticizing people like that. I like to learn new stuff too.



Hey Jon,

Yeah, this pretty much sums up my point.  Every art, has a huge amount of stuff.  Personally, I find it hard to believe that every single teeny tiny detail serves a purpose, while absolutely nothing is there for the mere reason of keeping the interest of people.  So, for the sake of the art, sure, go ahead and teach, learn, etc, the stuff.  But, IMO, K.I.S.S. is important too.  I've heard the Prof. say, as well as others who've trained with him, mention what he used to say, when the question of someone grabbing is arm or stick, would come up.  "Go ahead, try to grab that, and if you do, I'll punish you!"  So, while the person is fighting to mess up your disarm, punish them. 

A good example of what you said regarding the small movements to cancel their actions...lets look at some of the locks which involve the use of the attackers stick.  What makes the lock work?  The guy continuing to grab.  So, all they have to do is simply let go and your lock most likely goes bye bye.  I'd imagine all you'd have to do is let go of their stick, during their counter, and their attempt would go bye bye too.


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## Guro Harold (Dec 19, 2011)

We are talking about the counters to the 12 disarms as a topic, right? As mentioned before, the counters are shared and not typically required. I guess what's bugging me about this discussion is that some may not know or have forgotten what GM Presas shared repeatedly about the Flow: There is a Counter for a Counter and once you know the Counter, then you have it...then you have the Flow. GM Presas was not interested in people becoming robots but helping individuals in making the art their own. The Counters to the Disarms is just one path to help a student get there.


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## fangjian (Dec 19, 2011)

Guro Harold said:


> We are talking about the counters to the 12 disarms as a topic, right? As mentioned before, the counters are shared and not typically required. I guess what's bugging me about this discussion is that some may not know or have forgotten what GM Presas shared repeatedly about the Flow: There is a Counter for a Counter and once you know the Counter, then you have it...then you have the Flow. GM Presas was not interested in people becoming robots but helping individuals in making the art their own. The Counters to the Disarms is just one path to help a student get there.



All I am saying is that all you have to do is be familiar with many of the common ways people may try to disarm you. All that is needed to thwart the attempt is a small movement of your wrist and stick. 

I am familiar with the so called 'counters to 12 disarms'.  Those are more like 'applications'. Meaning 'Ok a guy attempts to snake disarm you; you enter, punch them in the ribs and then grab your own stick to shoulder lock them".  Right?   That is more of an application. There are much simpler ways to counter that disarm.


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## MJS (Dec 19, 2011)

Guro Harold said:


> We are talking about the counters to the 12 disarms as a topic, right?



Thats correct.  I asked who was teaching them and if there was any value to them.



> As mentioned before, the counters are shared and not typically required.



That is also correct.  Like I said, it seems like some do teach them as requirements, some do not and some teach them from time to time.



> I guess what's bugging me about this discussion is that some may not know or have forgotten what GM Presas shared repeatedly about the Flow: There is a Counter for a Counter and once you know the Counter, then you have it...then you have the Flow. GM Presas was not interested in people becoming robots but helping individuals in making the art their own. The Counters to the Disarms is just one path to help a student get there.



Yes, the flow....being able to move from one thing to the next, to the next, and so forth.  Tapi-Tapi and a joint lock flow would, IMO, be 2 examples of the flow.  So in the end, you have a long, continuous series of movements.  I think that sometimes, the series gets a bit redundant, drawn out.  I've gone to numerous seminars and have gone thru endless series of movements.  Like I said, for the art sake, sure, but I think that time could be better spent in other areas.


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## fangjian (Dec 19, 2011)

MJS said:


> I think that sometimes, the series gets a bit redundant, drawn out.  I've gone to numerous seminars and have gone thru endless series of movements.  Like I said, for the art sake, sure, but I think that time could be better spent in other areas.



If time spent is only on 'form collecting' than 'yes', it could be better spent elsewhere if the goal is "being proficient in 'single stick dueling' ". And since disarms can be easily countered, the most important attribute to have while dueling is quick reflexes while protecting you melon. My students are trained endlessly on their defense. Occasionally during our palakaw, I will attempt to disarm them as well, but it's easily countered. If by chance i do disarm them (and of course, I do occasionally), they are trained to close the gap and clinch. 

bottom line for me is training my students reflexes in defense. Usually in Balintawak, disarming is taught MUCH later.


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## MJS (Dec 20, 2011)

fangjian said:


> If time spent is only on 'form collecting' than 'yes', it could be better spent elsewhere if the goal is "being proficient in 'single stick dueling' ". And since disarms can be easily countered, the most important attribute to have while dueling is quick reflexes while protecting you melon. My students are trained endlessly on their defense. Occasionally during our palakaw, I will attempt to disarm them as well, but it's easily countered. If by chance i do disarm them (and of course, I do occasionally), they are trained to close the gap and clinch.
> 
> bottom line for me is training my students reflexes in defense. Usually in Balintawak, disarming is taught MUCH later.



Agreed!  I do the anyos.  They're part of our curriculum.  However, when I train, I like to keep things practical.  Sure, its one thing to just run thru the material, but IMO, if thats all you're doing, if you're never pushing yourself, then all you're doing is just being robotic, just sticking with the material, never leaving the box.  Work the disarms with someone really swinging at you.  Spar, test your stuff....this, IMO, is the key, if you are into the art for more than just doing the same material over and over.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 20, 2011)

MJS said:


> What are your thoughts on these?




Mike, my thoughts are that they are good for sensitivity attribute training. It teaches people to pay attention to not only their body but also their cane. It also makes them begin to listen to the imput from the opponent through the cane. It also gives people insight into different timings. For many this is the first time the get to see and feel an interupted sequence. Most people learn it, Opponent moves and I move then they move then I move. When in reality we know both are moving at the same time. It also starts one down the path of thinking about breaking the opponents timing without going balistic (* faster on your posrt *). 

So I think they are good. 
They teach one to begin to listen to the cane.
They introduce students to the broken timing and interrupted timing. 

I like them. 





MJS said:


> Do you teach them?



Yes. I introduce before black belt and test for it after black belt. The testing can turn into doing a specific technique versus what I described above. So it takes time and commitment from the instructor to reinforce good behavior with the student. 





MJS said:


> Is there any serious value in them or would time be better spent on other things in the art?



I think so. As I described above they are a method to improvement. 




MJS said:


> They're not part of our required material, though some do teach them. Personally, while I can see doing them for the sake of the art, I think that time may be better spent on other areas.
> 
> Anyone else?



As stated I do teach and require them. 

I would rather have a person that can solve a problem than have them only have it memorized. If they can figure it out then they can work beter with others and with themselves and their own training.


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## MJS (Dec 30, 2011)

I see what you're saying Rich.   Just like in Kenpo, there're some things that I'm not crazy about teaching, but teach anyways...who knows, someone may find the value in whatever it is.  I remember an Arnis camp from a few years ago.  One of the instructors that Brian Z. had teaching, was Larry Rocha.  I was his uke for the segment he was teaching.  One of the things we did, was probably one of the most basic....he swung a #1 and I was to go in and disarm.  The difference....he didn't stop his swing, like we so often see...he followed thru...and then went to a #2...and followed thru, then back to the 1, and so forth.  When I finally got in, he didn't stand there, allowing me to do the disarm, he fought back.  Next thing I know, we're in close, in clinch range, kneeing each other, and then he takes me down.

This is what I was talking about, when in my earlier post, I said working on other things.  IMHO, we're probably going to stand a better chance of having someone do what he did, rather than them standing there, letting us do our disarm, and then they try to counter.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 1, 2012)

MJS said:


> I see what you're saying Rich.   Just like in Kenpo, there're some things that I'm not crazy about teaching, but teach anyways...who knows, someone may find the value in whatever it is.  I remember an Arnis camp from a few years ago.  One of the instructors that Brian Z. had teaching, was Larry Rocha.  I was his uke for the segment he was teaching.  One of the things we did, was probably one of the most basic....he swung a #1 and I was to go in and disarm.  The difference....he didn't stop his swing, like we so often see...he followed thru...and then went to a #2...and followed thru, then back to the 1, and so forth.  When I finally got in, he didn't stand there, allowing me to do the disarm, he fought back.  Next thing I know, we're in close, in clinch range, kneeing each other, and then he takes me down.
> 
> This is what I was talking about, when in my earlier post, I said working on other things.  IMHO, we're probably going to stand a better chance of having someone do what he did, rather than them standing there, letting us do our disarm, and then they try to counter.



Mike, what you describe is very true. A fight or conflict is fluid and dynamic. Yet if you were taught that way from the beginning, no one would learn. They would just get hit by those faster, stronger, had better timing, and more training. So the instructor breaks down technique and isolates it so people can learn it. 

I know that people have also said that joint locks are not possible in a stick fight. I have pulled them off agianst people who did noo expect it. Even those that had it down and were more cautious were still a target for me, as I was still able to get a lock or two. Yet I have heard that they will never happen, yet like the occasional disarm I can get them. I am not saying they are the goal or what people should concentrate on, yet if you never train something you are guarenteed that you will never be able to do it. 

I agree that training basics and proper strikes and blocks are more important as if you do not have these you do not have a chance at anything else. :~)


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## Dan Anderson (Jan 16, 2012)

MJS said:


> What are your thoughts on these?  Do you teach them?  Is there any serious value in them or would time be better spent on other things in the art?
> 
> They're not part of our required material, though some do teach them.  Personally, while I can see doing them for the sake of the art, I think that time may be better spent on other areas.
> 
> Anyone else?


Just saw this post.  I think they are VERY important for a couple of different reasons.

Prof. Remy told me one time, "Danny, do not become hypnotized by the stick."  I've noticed that when a person gets disarmed, there is a momentary lingering of attention on the stick being taken away.  If they lose the stick they should move on into something else right away before the noggin conk occurs.  so, that's the first reason - to not have stuck attention on the fact that they just lost their cane.

The second reason lies in another thing Prof. Remy said to me, "Danny, if you can counter the counter, you will not be beat."  This statement is one of the four pillars to MA80.  In teaching countering the disarm, I show that your opponent gives you access to one of four things: 1) his arm, 2) his cane, 3) your cane or 4) a target.  You ALWAYS have an option.  To be able to recognize this while it is happening is a very valid and useful skill.

So, disarm counters - serious value in them?  Absolutely.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## MJS (Jan 17, 2012)

Rich Parsons said:


> Mike, what you describe is very true. A fight or conflict is fluid and dynamic. Yet if you were taught that way from the beginning, no one would learn. They would just get hit by those faster, stronger, had better timing, and more training. So the instructor breaks down technique and isolates it so people can learn it.
> 
> I know that people have also said that joint locks are not possible in a stick fight. I have pulled them off agianst people who did noo expect it. Even those that had it down and were more cautious were still a target for me, as I was still able to get a lock or two. Yet I have heard that they will never happen, yet like the occasional disarm I can get them. I am not saying they are the goal or what people should concentrate on, yet if you never train something you are guarenteed that you will never be able to do it.
> 
> I agree that training basics and proper strikes and blocks are more important as if you do not have these you do not have a chance at anything else. :~)



Hey Rich,

Sorry for the delayed reply...I just saw this.  Anyways...I never said, and I apologize in advance if I gave that impression, that I was actually suggesting that learning the basics, wasn't important.  My point was simply this:  it seems that many times, people teach countless things.  I have to wonder if some of these things aren't just fillers, you know, to keep the students.  They teach all these things, but never take it any further.  EX:  A #2 disarm is taught.  Student A swings are Student B.  A stands there, while B does the disarm.  This process is repeated over and over and over and over and over.  Eventually A&B switch roles.  Process repeats over and over and........

But where does it go from there?  My point was simply...instead of just filling the students with stuff, giving them static drills, never having them test this stuff, why not move past that, and see what they can really pull off.  That was my point when I was talking about Larry in my last post.  Instead of giving someone a drill, disarm, technique, etc, and let them assume that it'll work as taught, turn the heat up a bit, isolate that drill, and see if it'll really work, when someone is really swinging at you.  

I dont know, maybe its just me, but I think alot of the time, people are happy with just doing what they're doing, and tend to frown upon people who feel its necessary to kick things up a bit.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 17, 2012)

MJS said:


> Hey Rich,
> 
> Sorry for the delayed reply...I just saw this. Anyways...I never said, and I apologize in advance if I gave that impression, that I was actually suggesting that learning the basics, wasn't important.



Mike,

I understood your point or do so now. I was mostly using you who are open and asking questions to get replies and to have people express opinions as the person I addressed. I did not mean anything personal. 
We have met in person, it is all good. 




MJS said:


> But where does it go from there? My point was simply...instead of just filling the students with stuff, giving them static drills, never having them test this stuff, why not move past that, and see what they can really pull off. That was my point when I was talking about Larry in my last post. Instead of giving someone a drill, disarm, technique, etc, and let them assume that it'll work as taught, turn the heat up a bit, isolate that drill, and see if it'll really work, when someone is really swinging at you.




To many people, it is all filler. To many a student it is a filler, or the minimum requirements for their next belt. In my club I have "previous Requirements" as a requirement. So I can ask anything from the past. It helps to keep them on their toes and understanding it is all tied together and not just bits and pieces. 

I agree, some people have complained that I swing too hard, yet I do not do it to hurt people, but to show them that their block is solid. Then they know it is a good basic and to trust it. Once that is in place people have the chance to step it up and to move around a little. And there is nothing wrong with turning up the heat as you say. I recommend you have someone near by to call halt or break if things get a little to hot. For if you are in the pan with the other person you are not paying attention to the safety factor as someone from the outside can. 




MJS said:


> I dont know, maybe its just me, but I think alot of the time, people are happy with just doing what they're doing, and tend to frown upon people who feel its necessary to kick things up a bit.



People like to feel good. They like to think they are learning something cool and new. So if you have Technique X and can call it Y with a slight variation you have somethign new to teach for for people to learn. I see it for marketing and I see it for general habits of people on how it has come about and how it does come about. 

Yet, this goes back to your instructor thread, you need to have someone check you out even if it is just a peer.


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## MJS (Jan 18, 2012)

Rich Parsons said:


> Mike,
> 
> I understood your point or do so now. I was mostly using you who are open and asking questions to get replies and to have people express opinions as the person I addressed. I did not mean anything personal.
> We have met in person, it is all good.



No problem.  It was good meeting you as well, and I hope that opportunity presents itself again in the future. 







> To many people, it is all filler. To many a student it is a filler, or the minimum requirements for their next belt. In my club I have "previous Requirements" as a requirement. So I can ask anything from the past. It helps to keep them on their toes and understanding it is all tied together and not just bits and pieces.
> 
> I agree, some people have complained that I swing too hard, yet I do not do it to hurt people, but to show them that their block is solid. Then they know it is a good basic and to trust it. Once that is in place people have the chance to step it up and to move around a little. And there is nothing wrong with turning up the heat as you say. I recommend you have someone near by to call halt or break if things get a little to hot. For if you are in the pan with the other person you are not paying attention to the safety factor as someone from the outside can.



Agreed.  Things can get out of hand without someone keeping an eye on whats happening.  As for the 'filler' comment I made...thats the way it is in our org.  We have our set required list of things that need to be done.  However, IMHO, I feel that as instructors, they should build upon that.  I think that mixing things up a bit, is good.  Instead of following the same old pattern, class after class, which I think sooner or later, will get pretty boring, why not take one of those drills, isolate it, and build from there?  I'm sure theres more to the art than what we have listed as requirement material....lol.  Thing is...I wonder how many actually do this?






> People like to feel good. They like to think they are learning something cool and new. So if you have Technique X and can call it Y with a slight variation you have somethign new to teach for for people to learn. I see it for marketing and I see it for general habits of people on how it has come about and how it does come about.



True, and I suppose everyone trains for different reasons.  IMO though, I want to know that something is going to stand a good chance of working.  Nothing is more humbling, IMO, than to have something you thought worked, get shattered in front of your eyes, when the flame is turned up a bit...lol.



> Yet, this goes back to your instructor thread, you need to have someone check you out even if it is just a peer.



Very true Rich.  This is why I personally feel that its important to have someone.  Sadly, not everyone feels that way, but thats their loss.


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## Rocky (Jan 27, 2012)

I use to require a new disarms and counter to said disarm for every belt, with a minimum of 12 disarms and counters to each strike with the left and right hand making for 288 per side, but over the years I realized that the more complex you make the plumbing the easier it is to stuff up, and since disarms are used only when you are late, I spend more time teaching not to be late. But if you are going to teach it always looks cool when you can dazzle them with cool disarms and , who, doesn't want to look cool?




Rocky


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 28, 2012)

I teach them.


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## fangjian (Jan 28, 2012)

I worked on counters to disarms today, actually. I'll have to make a video and post it here. It's a fun subject.

Just to add something to the thread. I know approximately 3-7 counters to most disarms. What the most interesting part is, is when after I'm done showing my students everything I know say for one type of disarm, I tell them to see if they can 'make up' any others. Or have them 'make up' more disarms also. The techniques they come up with are great.


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## MJS (Feb 8, 2012)

fangjian said:


> I worked on counters to disarms today, actually. I'll have to make a video and post it here. It's a fun subject.
> 
> Just to add something to the thread. I know approximately 3-7 counters to most disarms. What the most interesting part is, is when after I'm done showing my students everything I know say for one type of disarm, I tell them to see if they can 'make up' any others. Or have them 'make up' more disarms also. The techniques they come up with are great.



So, how did this work out for them?  What did they come up with?


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## fangjian (Feb 27, 2012)

fangjian said:


> I worked on counters to disarms today, actually. I'll have to make a video and post it here. It's a fun subject.
> 
> Just to add something to the thread. I know approximately 3-7 counters to most disarms. What the most interesting part is, is when after I'm done showing my students everything I know say for one type of disarm, I tell them to see if they can 'make up' any others. Or have them 'make up' more disarms also. The techniques they come up with are great.


My student does about 3 or 4 counters to the 'snake' disarm that everyone knows. If you notice that all of the counters are usually a slight movement of my student's stick hand
[yt]tKg9BLXBIto[/yt]


@Mike   I don't remember exactly what they came up with. It would be a pain to even explain one technique with text though too.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2012)

I liked the Abecedario with the little girl.


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## fangjian (Feb 27, 2012)

Rich Parsons said:


> I liked the Abecedario with the little girl.



Thanks. 
That's my daughter. Her posture and focus impressed me.


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