# Fighting spirt ?



## crazydiamond (Feb 26, 2016)

I am still in the beginner belt ranks, but should reach intermediate in the fall. My instructor has commented on a few things he wants to see from me as I progress. Better body angles and foot work is one - and I will work on this. However another area I was told to work on is more of a "fighting spirit/intent"  - not power or beating up on my partners, but more of a kind of controlled ferocity.

Frankly I am having trouble cultivating this. If I was a dog I would be a Saint Bernard. Strong, big, quiet, and mellow. I also think because of my size, I sometimes get partners who look intimated with me, and if I show a bit of fake "snarl" or fighting spirit - I can see they are concerned about getting hurt. I am a nice guy and want to have fun with my partners.

I had another instructor (Krav based) ask  me yell and swear as I hit back in a simulated attack and it just felt... awkward.

Perhaps I just need to continue to fake it, use more verbal expressions for emphasis like they do in Karate? Perhaps just let my partners "deal" with a little intimidation and attitude from me?

Anyone else have to overcome this?


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## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2016)

Think of that quiet St Bernard protecting puppies or it's owner. 
It won't do your partners any harm to deal with a bit of intimidation, it's practice for real life. If they fold if someone swears at them or snarls they could be in trouble if attacked.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 26, 2016)

Fighting spirit isn't ferocity.  It's willingness.

Fighting spirit can be expressed by pure joy, exclamations of happiness.  Pounding the gloves together, "Let's do this!"  It doesn't require antipathy, anger, or any false expressions.  It's pure rock-and-roll.  Let's get it on, bro.  Touch gloves and give as good as you get, not to hurt the other person, but to thank them for testing you and giving you the opportunity to test them.

Fighting spirit is respect for the process, the learning environment, your partners.


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## ShawnP (Feb 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Think of that quiet St Bernard protecting puppies or it's owner.
> It won't do your partners any harm to deal with a bit of intimidation, it's practice for real life. If they fold if someone swears at them or snarls they could be in trouble if attacked.


LMAO, the first thing that comes to mind was Cujo.


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## Buka (Feb 26, 2016)

Your instructor is teaching you, trying to bring out something in you. It comes with time. Everyone has a fighting spirit within, some more than others to start with, but it's there.

I think we all have to overcome it to some extent. As for the growling, snarling and all that, yeah, sure, okay, but that sometimes just involves you getting yourself stoked. As you get to a higher level it won't be the growling people who give you pause, it's the dead quiet ones who are the pit dogs. When confronted with a boisterous, psyched fighter/thug you know he's just scared. And he should be, he's facing a Saint Bernard. I like what Tez said about the Saint Bernard. It's still a Saint Bernard - but go ahead and try to harm her puppies.

What sometimes helps is to continuously spar with people who can whoop your butt. Not only is it the only way to get better, it develops a dead game attitude, or fighting spirit. It just isn't easy. (not that it should be)

I like to be just like all the dogs I've ever had. On the couch, tails wagging in their sleep, waiting for cookies as kids climb all over them. Just don't go bothering the kids...or mama.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 26, 2016)

OK, easy thanks to Tez3.  Just dress yourself in a Saint Bernard suit, and all your opponents in Doberman suits with St Bernard puppies hanging from their mouths.  Problems solved.  

You have good advice above.  I believe fighting spirit is sometimes hard to define, and is I think, expressed different ways by different people.  But I think it is an intent to fight to the fullest, win or lose.  It is willingness to fight the good fight at all times.  It is a desire to win but no matter, to give one's best account of oneself.  It is an intent to be right in one's own mind and actions.  It is an intent to defend oneself no matter the consequences. 

Sound like you?  If so, you just need to ensure you show it outwardly, without malice, with all your strength with every move, without hurting practice opponents and no mercy for real opponents, and with a loud kiai (yell/shout).

You do kiai at the moment of contact I hope?  Kiai can indeed induce fear in some opponents.  Nothing wrong with that.  But the real goal of the kiai is for your benefit.  It helps to focus your gi.  So don't worry about causing fear in practice opponents or real opponents.  Practice on the benefits it gives you.  If that doesn't make sense, talk to your teacher about it.


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2016)

Where are you supposed to be exhibiting these traits? 

My interpretation of fighting spirit would be still fighting back at the end of a round. Not snarling or yelling.

I tend to replace fighting spirit  with work ethic.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 26, 2016)

crazydiamond said:


> I am still in the beginner belt ranks, but should reach intermediate in the fall. My instructor has commented on a few things he wants to see from me as I progress. Better body angles and foot work is one - and I will work on this. However another area I was told to work on is more of a "fighting spirit/intent"  - not power or beating up on my partners, but more of a kind of controlled ferocity.
> 
> Frankly I am having trouble cultivating this. If I was a dog I would be a Saint Bernard. Strong, big, quiet, and mellow. I also think because of my size, I sometimes get partners who look intimated with me, and if I show a bit of fake "snarl" or fighting spirit - I can see they are concerned about getting hurt. I am a nice guy and want to have fun with my partners.
> 
> ...



My guess is that when you spar or do martial arts it looks as if the martial arts controls you and you don't control the martial art.  You can't fake fighting spirit.  It's part of who you are.  You either have it, don't have it, or you are in process of developing it.

It's difficult to say that "fighting spirit" is only one thing because it literally shows in everything that we do even if we aren't fighting.  Since you used a dog in your example, think of it this way from urban slang.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it the size of the fight in the dog."


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## crazydiamond (Feb 26, 2016)

Its hard to describe in words what my instructor is looking for while training or sparing. Its not yelling or swearing or acting like an ***.  I would say a bit of fierceness or and looking like you mean it.   

As a mellow guy - I have had to overcome two emotional sides of training in self defense- 1) Taking it and 2) Dishing it out.  There have been posts about #1 taking it - particularly  in sparing, not turtle'ing, not freezing up, or breaking down -  retaining firm composure under hits and presure. Thats a bit of a hill to climb for alot of folks.. This second part - kind of dishing it out with a little attitude and intent is kind of what I am seeking to develop. In plain old training (not sparing) its is just something I need to bring. I can do it.


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2016)

Fitness up and pressure fight then.  If that is all it is you should just have to initiate more and throw longer combinations.

When you get caught with strikes you need to angle off and then return fire. 

None of this means you have to hit any harder just a different methods. 

Otherwise if it is on the pads.  Jit harder and faster.  (which most people dont do again due to lack of cardio)


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## Steve (Feb 26, 2016)

My personal opinion is that this is largely a function of personality.  You either have it or you don't.   Whether you call it gameness, fighting spirit, work ethic or whatever else, it's pretty well fixed by the time you're six or seven.  

There are kids who play rough, and kids who don't.   

I don't mean there isn't anything to be done, but there's a difference between gameness and confidence.   You can improve a persons self esteem and confidence, but there's some truth to the old saying, you can't teach heart.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 26, 2016)

crazydiamond said:


> Its hard to describe in words what my instructor is looking for while training or sparing. Its not yelling or swearing or acting like an ***.  I would say a bit of fierceness or and looking like you mean it.
> 
> As a mellow guy - I have had to overcome two emotional sides of training in self defense- 1) Taking it and 2) Dishing it out.  There have been posts about #1 taking it - particularly  in sparing, not turtle'ing, not freezing up, or breaking down -  retaining firm composure under hits and presure. Thats a bit of a hill to climb for alot of folks.. This second part - kind of dishing it out with a little attitude and intent is kind of what I am seeking to develop. In plain old training (not sparing) its is just something I need to bring. I can do it.


It's not fierceness.  It's a level of energy and intensity for what you are doing.   You can be mellow person, but everything can't be mellow or your martial art will look like Eeyore (the donkey from Winnie the Pooh) is doing it lol.

Here's a kung fu example of kids who start off with no fighting spirit and then they end with fighting spirit.  You can see it in their faces as they start off with no energy and but once the yelling starts they are all excited.





Don't think of sparring as "dishing out."  Sparring should be a learning moment for you where you learn how to apply your techniques.


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## drop bear (Feb 26, 2016)

Steve said:


> My personal opinion is that this is largely a function of personality.  You either have it or you don't.   Whether you call it gameness, fighting spirit, work ethic or whatever else, it's pretty well fixed by the time you're six or seven.
> 
> There are kids who play rough, and kids who don't.
> 
> I don't mean there isn't anything to be done, but there's a difference between gameness and confidence.   You can improve a persons self esteem and confidence, but there's some truth to the old saying, you can't teach heart.



You really can. Look we still do 12 week programs and have fighters by the end of it.


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## Danny T (Feb 26, 2016)

drop bear said:


> You really can. Look we still do 12 week programs and have fighters by the end of it.


It can be developed. Some take more time than others but yes it can be developed. 
What one is willing to do and how hard they are will to do it may well be based upon what the situation is. There has to be a passion for the willingness to kick in. What is the passion trigger for the individual.
Militaries develop it all the time.


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## Steve (Feb 26, 2016)

It can be improved, but I think it's kind of like anything else.   Some people are competitive and some are not.   You can make a lazy person work hard, but that doesn't make them less lazy.   In an all volunteer military, there is already a filter in place, weeding out those who are not game.   

Can what fighting spirit that exists be improved?  Sure, but there's a functional limit.  

People are what they are.   Look at the personalities around here.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 27, 2016)

"Heart"...that's the term I was looking for earlier.  I agree it's something that can't be taught.  It's something one can gain or earn, but only from themselves. 


Danny T said:


> It can be developed. Some take more time than others but yes it can be developed.
> What one is willing to do and how hard they are will to do it may well be based upon what the situation is. There has to be a passion for the willingness to kick in. What is the passion trigger for the individual.
> 
> Militaries develop it all the time.


  Good thing I read this twice.  I was just about to post my disagreement.  But you hit the nail on the head with. "There has to be a passion for the willingness to kick in."



Steve said:


> It can be improved, but I think it's kind of like anything else.   Some people are competitive and some are not.   You can make a lazy person work hard, but that doesn't make them less lazy.   In an all volunteer military, there is already a filter in place, weeding out those who are not game.
> 
> Can what fighting spirit that exists be improved?  Sure, but there's a functional limit.
> 
> People are what they are.   Look at the personalities around here.


Good points on both sides. We can't develop what's not there and we can't "plant the seed" for it if person isn't willing or has passion.   I guess that's why we always tell kids to do their best.  It doesn't matter if they are horrible at something so long as they try their best.  Maybe that's where the seeds for planing and developing fighting spirit is planted.


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## Buka (Feb 27, 2016)

Steve said:


> My personal opinion is that this is largely a function of personality.  You either have it or you don't.   Whether you call it gameness, fighting spirit, work ethic or whatever else, it's pretty well fixed by the time you're six or seven.
> 
> There are kids who play rough, and kids who don't.
> 
> I don't mean there isn't anything to be done, but there's a difference between gameness and confidence.   You can improve a persons self esteem and confidence, but there's some truth to the old saying, you can't teach heart.


_
There are kids who play rough and kids who don't._ 

Truer words have never been spoken. But there's a little more to it than that. I was not one of the kids who played rough. But I was one of the kids who got in fights with the kids who played rough. I wish I had had a choice, but I didn't.

Flash forward a couple decades. I'm running a fighting school in the same neighborhood. Many of those kids who played rough end up as students now that they're in their twenties and early thirties. Some become good students, some don't. Some are game (have heart) most do not. Not yet, anyway. No grudges are held from times gone by, they're just students.  Other students - some of whom have the same general appearance/stereotype/personalities of picked on kids from long ago are also students....who have been training for five years or more. They're helping out coaching and teaching the rough house boys. They're also choking them out on a regular basis or punching, kicking and sweeping them at will. And showing them how not to let that happen. And teaching them to be gentlemen. (like they have a fricken choice) (yes, there is a certain personal satisfaction to that, what can I say?) I firmly believe becoming a gentleman is an important part of having heart. It's not even a point I'm willing to discuss, to me it's an absolute, otherwise you're just a fighter and fighters are a dime a dozen.

Flash forward some more years. The children of those original rough house boys are now training with us. Some are just like their dads were, some are not. No matter,  because what they are and what they will become are completely different things. That's my job, just like it's the job of all of you who teach. May we all do it well.

You can't teach "heart". In the classic nuts and bolts definition of teaching that is a correct statement. But it can be developed in some, not all, but in some. It takes time and most do not even realize it's happening.


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## Danny T (Feb 27, 2016)

Steve said:


> It can be improved, but I think it's kind of like anything else.   Some people are competitive and some are not.   You can make a lazy person work hard, but that doesn't make them less lazy.   In an all volunteer military, there is already a filter in place, weeding out those who are not game.
> 
> Can what fighting spirit that exists be improved?  Sure, but there's a functional limit.
> 
> People are what they are.   Look at the personalities around here.


Fighting Spirit and Competitiveness are not the same things.


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## donald1 (Feb 27, 2016)

Comfidence goes a long way. I dont know about you guys but im not a ferocious dog... im more along the line like the calm friendly house dog that likes to sit on the couch with the AC.
but you know what. When I get focused and serious im as confident as ever


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## Steve (Feb 27, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Fighting Spirit and Competitiveness are not the same things.


I agree. But they are both traits you either have or don't.


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## Steve (Feb 27, 2016)

donald1 said:


> Comfidence goes a long way. I dont know about you guys but im not a ferocious dog... im more along the line like the calm friendly house dog that likes to sit on the couch with the AC.
> but you know what. When I get focused and serious im as confident as ever


Confidence can look a lot like fighting spirit, and if you train hard and develop sound technique, you can be successful.

Look at guys in MMA.  They are all voluntarily engaging in a violent,tough sport.   Sometimes, like in the rousey fight, you have a person who gets really challenged.   Everything they think they know... Wrong.   They aren't able to eat punches like candy, and they aren't immune to being knocked out.   You find out what kind of fighting spirit yiu have after that.  Will she ever come back?  Did Mike Tyson? 

In the context of this forum, we have guys here who have a lot of theoretical knowledge, and who believe they know.   And some of those guys are self described experts who are teaching others.   But its sometimes hard to distinguish between heart and confidence...  Or bravado,   Confidence is critical, but fighting spirit is what takes over once your confidence is shaken.


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## donald1 (Feb 27, 2016)

Steve said:


> Confidence can look a lot like fighting spirit, and if you train hard and develop sound technique, you can be successful.
> 
> Look at guys in MMA.  They are all voluntarily engaging in a violent,tough sport.   Sometimes, like in the rousey fight, you have a person who gets really challenged.   Everything they think they know... Wrong.   They aren't able to eat punches like candy, and they aren't immune to being knocked out.   You find out what kind of fighting spirit yiu have after that.  Will she ever come back?  Did Mike Tyson?
> 
> In the context of this forum, we have guys here who have a lot of theoretical knowledge, and who believe they know.   And some of those guys are self described experts who are teaching others.   But its sometimes hard to distinguish between heart and confidence...  Or bravado,   Confidence is critical, but fighting spirit is what takes over once your confidence is shaken.


Well its a good thing im stubborn(that or ignorant) because my confidence is never broken, maybe down sometimes but only briefly


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