# incapacitation blows



## Manny (Mar 4, 2010)

Well Kenpo stills amazes me, last night in class we did some techs, we are training with the pain inoculation or the love's touch theory we had discussed before, this is to understand the techs as they were designed.

Doing crossing talon my last two movements were a right knee to the chest folowed by a good elbow to the spine, the blow was not hard enough but I could feel the spine bones (vertebrae) of my oponent and he actually felt a little pain. I was shocked cause the blow was not so hard but this part of the body is so vulnerable that I know using all my force,mass and body weight I could break the spine of an oponent.

The guys and me are sharing this pain inoculaton a lot, yes, sometimes is disconforting but allow us to understand that a well placed blow or tech in the right spot can be lethal. I think I never experimented this kind of training (in self defense scenarios) before and I am liking it a lot.

Manny


----------



## chaos1551 (Mar 4, 2010)

It feels a bit weird to say that I enjoy being hit, but I truly do.  I like the pain.  I like walking away from my school with the kind of pain that makes me realize that the traffic doesn't matter, my kid whining isn't really that bad and taking the time to go the extra mile really is no skin off my nose.

I'm sold on pain.  Between pain innoculation and Wolf's Law, there are good reasons to get hit.


----------



## Xinglu (Mar 4, 2010)

I don't feel like I've trained unless I have bruises... seriously.

Personally I want to know that if the person did this maneuver for real, they could seriously hurt someone.


----------



## Manny (Mar 4, 2010)

When I see MA students doing flopy or lazy techs without any effort like goofing around I really feel sad for them and I always think.... what if this person someday will need the skills to defend him/her self on the streets?? We don't need to break each other on dojo to comprehend the tech but we need to be a little realistic about it.

When I get home with bruises and some little pain in me my wife always tell me the same... you are sadic!!! I don't get why you come home hurt, it seems you like pain, and I really like a little bit pain and when I see my chest or arms with bruises I feel proud.

I have recived serius blows in the past doing sparring like broken theet and a broken nose even a knock out but this never stoped me to continue in this sd/ma journey.

Manny


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 4, 2010)

Tell them to identify a target before executing their techs. It could help withth overall result.
sean


----------



## MattJ (Mar 5, 2010)

Using the opponent's momentum against them will also help. Throw that knee in Crossing Talon as they are still coming down from the wristlock, and you can double the impact without having to increase the force in the knee itself.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2010)

The spine is an extremely vulnerable part of the body, and damage to it can be permanent and utterly debilitating.  It doesn't take much to injure it.

training hard, and a bit of toughness conditioning has its place in the dojo.  But the dojo is the last place where you need to be a tough guy.  If you start injuring your training partners, or getting injured by them, your training will come to a stop in a hurry.

You need to be very careful about how you go about this kind of thing, and I'd say the really vulnerable places like the spine, throat, and eyes, just don't even go there.  Show the strike, but don't contact it.  Those spots are just not worth taking the risk.  Train the impact on striking bags or something, but not on your partner.


----------



## MJS (Mar 9, 2010)

I have to agree with what FC said.  The martial arts definately involve contact, and there is nothing wrong with some hard contact, but, if its going to result in possible permanent injury, well, its just not worth it.  I dont want to lose an eye, because my training partner didn't have enough control, and wanted to see what it would be like to actually hit someone there.


----------



## Manny (Mar 9, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> The spine is an extremely vulnerable part of the body, and damage to it can be permanent and utterly debilitating. It doesn't take much to injure it.
> 
> training hard, and a bit of toughness conditioning has its place in the dojo. But the dojo is the last place where you need to be a tough guy. If you start injuring your training partners, or getting injured by them, your training will come to a stop in a hurry.
> 
> You need to be very careful about how you go about this kind of thing, and I'd say the really vulnerable places like the spine, throat, and eyes, just don't even go there. Show the strike, but don't contact it. Those spots are just not worth taking the risk. Train the impact on striking bags or something, but not on your partner.


 
Thank you FC I will listening to you, we do contact, not just a tap no sir, not to maim either, we do contact in a moderate way however I'll take your concerns and offcourse we will use just the minimun of force.

Manny


----------



## kaizasosei (Mar 9, 2010)

Once i got kicked in the head while both on the floor, very unfairly, and i quite sure i was knocked out, but when i woke up, i was on top of the guy.  I fought on unconcious. Heel to the temple.  Didn't even really notice but the next day it was one of the most painful strikes i've ever had to deal with.  Basically, just touching my temple very lightly caused an intensely sharp pain.  Took around 4 days to get better. 

Anyhow, after i backed off a bit the guy came in again and i just about floored him again but without touching him but by freaking him out cause i was ready to kick his ***, but in the dojo it would not be appropriate and it's not really my style.

If you are ready to confront the issues and aggressions that some people have, even the dojo can be dangerous.  For real.  I really don't mind a share of healthy bruises from fair practice or hard training, but i frown on unfair cheapshots and unnecessarily strong striking.

The martial artists that train hard and rough are usually the most fair and humane of all.   


j


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2010)

Manny said:


> Thank you FC I will listening to you, we do contact, not just a tap no sir, not to maim either, we do contact in a moderate way however I'll take your concerns and offcourse we will use just the minimun of force.
> 
> Manny


 
It's just the nature of what you posted you guys are doing.  Actually striking on the spine.  

on other areas, contact is perfectly acceptable.  But on the spine, it should be completely avoided.  It is just far too easy to injure it, and that could be even life-ending.  You cannot toughen the spine by striking it, like you can with other parts of the body.


----------



## LawDog (Mar 10, 2010)

*Heavy contact to the parts of the body that can bear the impact.
*Light contact to the parts that cannot bear alot of impact.
*No contact to the areas that can be damage by any contact.
Contact is a training tool that is needed so that a student can develop the proper ranging for his "power curve". 
Remember, it could be you that is disfigured or crippled because your training partner only wanted to use full contact.
Enjoy the good pain.
:ultracool


----------



## MJS (Mar 10, 2010)

Manny said:


> Thank you FC I will listening to you, we do contact, not just a tap no sir, not to maim either, we do contact in a moderate way however I'll take your concerns and offcourse we will use just the minimun of force.
> 
> Manny


 
If you find that you must make contact to the back, then I'd suggest using the part of your arm, just above the elbow.  Flat surface vs the point of the elbow, but still, I would go light to no contact at all.  As its been said already, but worth repeating, some parts of the body can't take heavy hitting without the risk of serious injury.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 10, 2010)

MJS said:


> As its been said already, but worth repeating, some parts of the body can't take heavy hitting without the risk of serious injury.


 
I'll up that a bit and say, some parts of the body cannot take ANY hitting without risk of serious injury.

Driving elbows down into any part of the back when the person is bent over, can be very dangerous.  Even staying away from the spine, the rest of the back has some danger zones.  You could break the scapula/shoulder blade with the point of your elbow.  Even hitting the muscles along the side of the spine can cause them to seize up into very painful knots, which can take a long time to loosen up without the right kind of massage, and that can interfere with your training for weeks.

If you want to strike the back with an elbow or hammerfist, I'd say be very cautious and methodical, place your palm on the target and then strike the back of your hand with your other elbow.  Protect your partner.  If you hit too hard, you just hurt your own hand and then you deserve it.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 10, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> It's just the nature of what you posted you guys are doing. Actually striking on the spine.
> 
> on other areas, contact is perfectly acceptable. But on the spine, it should be completely avoided. It is just far too easy to injure it, and that could be even life-ending. You cannot toughen the spine by striking it, like you can with other parts of the body.


I wouldn't avoid any target, but I would task the students to touch the spine gently, just as we gently touch the corotid artery.
sean


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 10, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> I wouldn't avoid any target, but I would task the students to touch the spine gently, just as we gently touch the corotid artery.
> sean


 
That's kind of the problem, tho.  I think a lot of people don't understand how gently, "gently" needs to be.  all it takes is one bad shot, and it's all over.  Dislocated or broken vertabra, slipped discs, damaged spinal cord, etc.  The point of the elbow can really drive the force home.  Even using the flat of the arm to strike, I just wouldn't do it across the spine or the scapula.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 10, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> That's kind of the problem, tho. I think a lot of people don't understand how gently, "gently" needs to be. all it takes is one bad shot, and it's all over. Dislocated or broken vertabra, slipped discs, damaged spinal cord, etc. The point of the elbow can really drive the force home. Even using the flat of the arm to strike, I just wouldn't do it across the spine or the scapula.


... lots of adult supervision.
Sean


----------



## MJS (Mar 10, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> I'll up that a bit and say, some parts of the body cannot take ANY hitting without risk of serious injury.
> 
> Driving elbows down into any part of the back when the person is bent over, can be very dangerous. Even staying away from the spine, the rest of the back has some danger zones. You could break the scapula/shoulder blade with the point of your elbow. Even hitting the muscles along the side of the spine can cause them to seize up into very painful knots, which can take a long time to loosen up without the right kind of massage, and that can interfere with your training for weeks.
> 
> If you want to strike the back with an elbow or hammerfist, I'd say be very cautious and methodical, place your palm on the target and then strike the back of your hand with your other elbow. Protect your partner. If you hit too hard, you just hurt your own hand and then you deserve it.


 
Agreed, and this is why I suggested, that if it was necessary to strike with something like the elbow, to use the part of the arm above the elbow.  There are a number of Kenpo techs., as we well know, that involve strikes to the back.  We should be able to simulate the strike, meaning, I should still be able to throw my hammerfist and make no or light contact.  You said it best in that other post of yours....people need to be able to strike gently.  Problem is, nobody does.

2 techs. that come to mind are Thundering Hammers and Back Breaker.  IMHO, by the time people reach those techs. if they can't control their strikes, well, I think they need to hold off a few belts, until they can.


----------

