# Can YOU Be Beaten?



## Jenna (Aug 26, 2009)

Is it prudent to admit there will always be an opponent capable of beating you?

Or does such an admission lessen your chances of defeating that opponent should you ever encounter him?

Thank you for reading 
Always,
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## morph4me (Aug 26, 2009)

I don't know about being prudent, but it is realistic that on a given day anybody can be beaten by anybody else. That works both  ways, on any givend day you can beat anybody else. You won't know who will be able to beat you or who you'll be able to beat until after it happens. That's why the prudent thing to do, IMO, is to avoid that situation and make it a moot point.


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## Tez3 (Aug 26, 2009)

Most people can beat me but unless they killed me I'd come back when they weren't looking and hit them round the head with a baseball bat.

Seriously, old and sneaky beats young and fit everytime. In a fair fight I'd get beaten but, frankly, I wouldn't fight fair.


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## seasoned (Aug 26, 2009)

Wining or getting beaten on, should never be an issue, and should never concern us through life. This thinking will only hinder our thought process. Clear mind= clear action.


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## Tez3 (Aug 26, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Wining or getting beaten on, should never be an issue, and should never concern us through life. This thinking will only hinder our thought process. Clear mind= clear action.


 
I tend to think though that if being attacked one should really try to win. The consequences of my not winning concern me quite a bit.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 26, 2009)

There is always someone that is bigger or stronger or faster or better trained or luckier than you are but it really doesnt matter much.

With that said I think I will go have a cup of tea.


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## thardey (Aug 26, 2009)

As my instructor says.

You should train to the point where when you enter into a fight, and you are beaten, your reaction should be one of utter and complete surprise.

Or, to put it into my own words: Train as if you are going to be at a disadvantage -- Fight as if victory was already yours.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 26, 2009)

DAMN!!!

I just thought of this and I wish I had posted it first as my answer

"I Don't waste my time with it. When it comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking gooood."


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## MJS (Aug 26, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Is it prudent to admit there will always be an opponent capable of beating you?
> 
> Or does such an admission lessen your chances of defeating that opponent should you ever encounter him?
> 
> ...


 
Just because we train, that, IMO, does not mean that we're invincible.  Anyone can be beat, and if there is someone out there who claims differently, I want to meet and train under this person.  

So, to answer your question, I'm sure there're many out there who can get the better of me.  When I have my training sessions, I always do my best to give 100%.  I do my best to hopefully limit the possibilities of it.


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## Archangel M (Aug 26, 2009)

Sure you can...

That's why you should make avoidance your #1 priority.


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 26, 2009)

Absolutely, and you should train like you're going to meet that "person" at any moment.


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## Tez3 (Aug 26, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Sure you can...
> 
> That's why you should make avoidance your #1 priority.


 
Yes but hitting people is fun!

Violence is the answer to everything!


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## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> DAMN!!!
> 
> I just thought of this and I wish I had posted it first as my answer
> 
> "I Don't waste my time with it. When it comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking gooood."


 

whach you know about this Haaahn cat?


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## still learning (Aug 26, 2009)

Hello, Even the best of the best can be beaten.....NO one can prevent a false crack or hit from behind...

Guns and knives....very hard to defeat!  ....If you are talking in a street fight?  

Street fights have NO rules, anything goes, all things can be use as weapons around you, NO limits of attackers can join in against you anytime, especiallly from the back or kicking you when on the ground...

 A lucky hit...anywhere can happen to you....happens in the class rooms many times...especially when sparring white belts...

Killer instincts=  are people who DO NOT FEAR FOR THERE LIFE...
People who fear for there life?  ....has loss from the beginning...STUDY THIS WELL!

Can you be beaten?  .....here one fears for one self....NOT good!

Aloha,   eggs can get beaten....sometimes better to fried or boil it...


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## Hawke (Aug 26, 2009)

Refuse to play the win/lose game?  Especially driven my macho ego of you has the biggest pen.

In tournaments - yup.

In real life where your life is on the line - possibility exists.

I agree with the above posts to limit that possibility by training for it.

I really like some of the sayings here:

Train like you might lose, fight like you already won.

Hitting people is fun.

Looking too good to notice.

You guys crack me up.


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## Omar B (Aug 26, 2009)

This is why I only fight senior citizens.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 26, 2009)

It is most assuredly prudent to be aware that there are those who can beat you.  

Likewise, like *Angel* said above, avoidance should always be a top priority to evade having to test the odds as often as possible.

I like *Thardey*'s thumbnail aphorism on the subject too.

But does admitting that there are those who are more skilled or fight better than you a negative that would weigh upon the mind.  I suppose that it could if you allowed it too.  The major point to retain is that, in any serious fight, giving in to any form of despair is a losing strategy.  So, acknowledging that you are no the God of War made flesh is not the same as failing to play whatever hand you have when the time comes.

It's always hard to extrapolate from your own real life experiences in a way that makes sense to others but, in my one and only 'real' fight, I did not go into it with the expectation of winning.  There were three of them and there were weapons involved.  But the mindset that got me through was that admitting that the odds were stacked against me was not the same as surrendering.

The only sure fire way to lose at anything is to give up.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 26, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Is it prudent to admit there will always be an opponent capable of beating you?
> 
> Or does such an admission lessen your chances of defeating that opponent should you ever encounter him?
> 
> ...


 
Good question... and some good points as well here... 

I am sure you already know my answer...I left behind the need to admit there is someone out there who is always "bigger , stronger, faster and able to beat me on any given day"...when I adopted the mindset and the training to be combative only in an asocial situation...  
In the realm of violence, combat or simply whats "martial" you need to have a "superman complex" and the assertion to come out on top becuase you understand that second place loses his life....  

In a social/antisocial setting ther always is a better fighter.... or a better competitior...


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## K-man (Aug 26, 2009)

One would have to have a super ego to imagine that we cannot be beaten.  Acknowledging that we are in danger and are at risk actually helps by making us more aware.  If we walked into an altercation, thinking that we had already won, we are asking to be smacked.  Yes we can all be beaten, but, depending on our training, we can increase our chance of surviving the encounter. 
Then we also need to use judgement.  If there is the opportunity of escaping the situation, or defusing it, without leaving us or our family and friends at risk, obviously we walk away.
Back me into a corner where being beaten is not an option ... the guy is in for the fight of his life, regardless of the outcome.  :asian:


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## Deaf Smith (Aug 26, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Is it prudent to admit there will always be an opponent capable of beating you?
> 
> Or does such an admission lessen your chances of defeating that opponent should you ever encounter him?


 
Anyone can be beaten. Anyone!!! Cause life isn't a 'fair fight'.

Admission of it? I think admitting it will actually help you win. Cause it will keep from getting a big head. And when the time comes for it to be real, you will fight with everything you have to survive.

Deaf


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## Tez3 (Aug 26, 2009)

Omar B said:


> This is why I only fight senior citizens.


 
I fight kids, then I can show off my kicks to the head!

When I get into altercations it's as the person who has to stop them, I can't go into them with the thought I might 'lose', I have to win if that's the right word, at any rate I have to prevail over the people who are breaking the law. I can do that by various means, not necessarily through violence and I'm not alone which is a bonus obviously! 

Fighting competitively is fun and I think a great many fighters, certainly a lot of the ones I know aren't out to prove in the first instance that they are the best fighter on the day though that is very satisfying, the main thing is to prove to yourself you can do it. I think it's a useful thing to do to have at least one full contact fight in the ring/cage whatever to prove to yourself that you can keep your head, act calmly while the adrenaline is flowing and can think what you are doing while fighting. Not quite the same as being attacked but close enough for you to reassure yourself you can have a damn good go at defending yourself. If you win it's cool but if you don't you'll still be pleased with yourself so as they say it's a win/win situation. Whats amazing perhaps is the bond you form with the person you've fought, you end up grinning at each other and going off for a pint!


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 26, 2009)

Omar B said:


> This is why I only fight senior citizens.


 
I know at least 2 Chinese and one American senior citizen you might want to avoid


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## tonbo (Aug 26, 2009)

Can *I* be beaten?

Hell  yes, happens all the time.  

I'm taking this to mean "beaten" as in, "generally considered to have lost an encounter".  In that case, yes.  I've been beaten in point sparring, kata and technique competitions, and even short story contests.  

If you mean "beaten" as in "thumped upon", yep, had that happen too...my instructors can be pretty good at that, although never in a mean or non-instructive way.....

If you mean "beaten" as in "thoroughly defeated", then *that*  hasn't happened yet.  I'm still standing, for now....the only thing that will ever TOTALLY defeat me/beat me is Death himself....and I've come out ahead a couple of rounds now.  In the end, though, I think the sneaky bugger is gonna get me.  In fact, I'd place odds on it.....but I'm preparing for it to be a pretty long matchup....  

Eh...back to training.  

Peace--

--Tonbo


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## Omar B (Aug 26, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> I know at least 2 Chinese and one American senior citizen you might want to avoid



Tough guys huh?


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 26, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Tough guys huh?


 
Nah just well trained one was an inside student of Tung Ying Chieh, one was a student of Ip Man and the other I have no idea who he learned from but his Hapkido and cane skills impressed the hell out of me and he's the youngest at about 65 and I am not messing with any of them :anic: I want to live to be a senior citizen


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## jks9199 (Aug 26, 2009)

Can I beaten?

Sure.

Will I beaten?

Don't know, don't care.

But know this...  If it's for real -- it'll cost you to beat me.  And you'd be wise to have a plan to kill me.  Because if it's real -- that's what it'll take to beat me.


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## Aikicomp (Aug 26, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Is it prudent to admit there will always be an opponent capable of beating you?
> 
> Yes
> 
> ...


 


Xue Sheng said:


> DAMN!!!
> 
> I just thought of this and I wish I had posted it first as my answer
> 
> "I Don't waste my time with it. When it comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking gooood."


 


Flying Crane said:


> whach you know about this Haaahn cat?


 
Maan!...you come right out of a comic book.



Xue Sheng said:


> I know at least 2 Chinese and one American senior citizen you might want to avoid
> 
> I'll add another American and raise you one Japanese.


 

To the OP.....

This is why we train in the mindset of your opponent WILL be bigger, stronger, faster and have better technique than you do, so, your skills have to be the very best they can be at ANY given moment and the only way to get that is to train, train and when you are tired of training...train some more.

Michael


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## Omar B (Aug 27, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Nah just well trained one was an inside student of Tung Ying Chieh, one was a student of Ip Man and the other I have no idea who he learned from but his Hapkido and cane skills impressed the hell out of me and he's the youngest at about 65 and I am not messing with any of them :anic: I want to live to be a senior citizen



This is why I walk around with a grenade.


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## seasoned (Aug 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I tend to think though that if being attacked one should really try to win. The consequences of my not winning concern me quite a bit.


You are most correct, and it all boils down to the way we train. What is put into our training, will come out in the heat of battle. I don't dwell on win or lose, but in self defense, stopping the threat by any means, is determined in training. It is kind of like, at the shooting range, all shots are in a kill zone. With this type of practice, I don't concern myself while I carry, because if we train properly, the job will get done while we are there watching. Hands on, same thing.


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## Joab (Aug 27, 2009)

In my case its realistic, there are lots of guys who can take me. Than again, I know some things that work very well, one never knows...when facing an opponent it is good to have confidence, but not false confidence.


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## fangjian (Aug 27, 2009)

I can't be beaten. I could beat an armed Brock Lesnar with my hands tied behind my back and blindfolded.


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## morph4me (Aug 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I fight kids, then I can show off my kicks to the head!
> 
> When I get into altercations it's as the person who has to stop them, I can't go into them with the thought I might 'lose', I have to win if that's the right word, at any rate I have to prevail over the people who are breaking the law. I can do that by various means, not necessarily through violence and I'm not alone which is a bonus obviously!


 
I understand what you're saying, and I would never advocate going into an encounter witht the thought that you might lose, that's just liable to become a self fulfilling prophecy. I do think , however, that we all have to acknowledge that we can be beaten, it keeps us from getting careless and sloppy, and keeps us fighting hard.


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## Tez3 (Aug 27, 2009)

morph4me said:


> I understand what you're saying, and I would never advocate going into an encounter witht the thought that you might lose, that's just liable to become a self fulfilling prophecy. I do think , however, that we all have to acknowledge that we can be beaten, it keeps us from getting careless and sloppy, and keeps us fighting hard.


 

Absolutely but the thing is the police shouldn't be beaten if you see what I mean? For the police to lose it means the bad guys win and that's untenable. However as I said too we aren't hopefully on our own in these situations.


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## bluekey88 (Aug 27, 2009)

Can I be beaten?  

To within an inch of my life....but that usually costs extra....



Peace,
Erik


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## Jenna (Aug 27, 2009)

I am very grateful for all your posts, even you naughty people mucking about in my classroom discussion!  Yes I see you down the back there haha!!

Well yes I too had thought it prudent to admit; I too accept that it is statistically highly likely that there was an opponent harder and faster etc than I.  In other words, yes, there is almost certainly someone out there who can take me..

_Yet_..

There are two things that bother me bout this:

1. If I have admitted that I can be beaten [no matter how probable] then have I not weakened my own psychological position from the get-go?

2. The other issue that bothers me quite a lot is what then am I supposed to do when I meet this opponent who has me matched and bettered blow-for-blow?  What am I supposed to do then, having realised that THIS is the opponent we considered; that THIS is the opponent who is my defeater; that THIS is my Waterloo?  Then what?

I would not for a moment suggest it wise to program ourselves into thinking that there is nobody who can beat us.  What I am concerned about is what do we do when we meet this opponent that we KNOW; that we have ADMITTED to ourselves, we cannot possibly defeat?

Thank you all again,
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Janna


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## morph4me (Aug 27, 2009)

> 1. If I have admitted that I can be beaten [no matter how probable] then have I not weakened my own psychological position from the get-go?


 
I don't think so,I think that it keeps you from getting careless and sloppy, and makes you fighting harder to avoid it.




> The other issue that bothers me quite a lot is what then am I supposed to do when I meet this opponent who has me matched and bettered blow-for-blow? What am I supposed to do then, having realised that THIS is the opponent we considered; that THIS is the opponent who is my defeater; that THIS is my Waterloo? Then what?


 
You fight harder and make him pay dearly for the priveledge of beating you. You make it a pyhrric victory, make it so costly for him to win that he might as well have lost. You fight until you can't fight anymore and you make sure that anyone who sees him knows he's been in a fight. Like the saying goes, "When two tigers fight one is crippled and one is dead" . If you survive the encounter you make damn sure he'll think twice before he wants to try it again, and you learn from it and realize that just because you were beaten this time, if there is a next time, the outcome doesn't have to be the same.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 27, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> whach you know about this Haaahn cat?


 
I hear he likes to life big . . . . .


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## Tez3 (Aug 27, 2009)

Jenna, there's always a chance that you won't defeat an opponent, if it's in a competiton you just grin and as I said go and have a drink with them, get some tips as to why you didn't win.
If however you are being attacked and you feel you aren't going to win it's that desparate then you vow to make them pay dearly for their 'win', I will go down fighting using every dirty trick and move I can, getting every piece of evidence I can if I am not able to convict them myself. My life is bought at a very dear price. I also know as I probably shouldn't say this but if I'm attacked there will be people coming after them that they won't beat.


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 27, 2009)

Jenna said:


> I am very grateful for all your posts, even you naughty people mucking about in my classroom discussion! Yes I see you down the back there haha!!
> 
> Well yes I too had thought it prudent to admit; I too accept that it is statistically highly likely that there was an opponent harder and faster etc than I. In other words, yes, there is almost certainly someone out there who can take me..
> 
> ...


 
Just because your realize the possibility exists doesn't mean you accept that you *WILL* be beaten, just that you *CAN* be beaten. Just because it's possible doesn't necessarily mean it's probable at any given instant. Different variables will affect the outcome of any contest.

For instance, you most likely don't care as much about winning a sparring match as you do about living. Therefore, in a given circumstance where your life is at risk your will to live, willingness to do "less than human" things to your attacker, will-power, etc. will impact the outcome. 

Successful defense boils down to a lot more than just the basics like skill, physical strength, or training. The bottom line is you have to be willing to be more nasty and dirty than the guy trying to kill you. 

I'm not sure if my rambling makes sense to anyone but me, but what I'm trying to say is accepting the reality that you can be beaten doesn't mean that you're a defeatest. It doesn't mean you will be beaten either. 

It's humble, practical, rational, and logical to accept the reality of the possibility because if you didn't you'd get too comfortable and not train nearly as hard and then you WOULD most likely be defeated from becoming slack.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 27, 2009)

Sure I can be beaten. Part of the reason I managed to stay out of any fights (apart from luck) is that I actively try to avoid them because I -know- I am not Bas Rutten. I could probably beat some, and be beaten by many more.

I also don't have the desire to -win- a fight if I should get into one. My desire is to get out, get home and survive. Fighting is not about winning but about not losing (in my humble opinion). Every fight I don't fight is one that I didn't lose.

The knowledge that there are better fighters than me out there also insures that I do not get into a fight cocky and overconfident, if I should ever get into one.


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## Zero (Aug 27, 2009)

Jenna

this is a great post!
There is always one day and one opponent when you can be beaten. It happens in the ring even to the Greats, Ali, Andy Hug, Ernesto, etc. A lucky/unlucky shot or a misread/mis-timing of a move, and bam, KO! Fight enough, on the street or in the ring, and you will eventually meet your equal/better, or just have a bad day!

When I fight (competion/ring) I have never worried about being beaten or loosing a competition. I have at times worried about being hurt, particularly when carrying injuries from previous tournaments not healed yet. I don't even think about "I must win this competition, fight, tournament". I do look at all times for the moment of knock out or submission, and that is that. 
Who cares if someone/something is out there that can beat you, you're dreaming if you think otherwise; just get to it.

It is frustrating though and a self/mental challenge to overcome when you meet someone who can perpetually beat you, no matter how hard you train! - or maybe this indicates, there is even more training to be done. I am younger (not that that means a heck in itself!), fitter, equal in speed of strikes (almost, in most respects), and hopefully as intelligent/perceptive as my head trainer but for five years have not been able to beat him in serious sparring, despite having won numerous competions. This guy is just a naturally massive guy who has over ten more years fight experience than me; I am working on figuring other ways but have not cracked him yet.


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## seasoned (Aug 27, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Sure you can...
> 
> That's why you should make avoidance your #1 priority.


Very good point, but just as an add on. Know when avoidance turns to violence, and be prepared to transition properly. Just a thought.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 27, 2009)

Jenna said:


> . . . .2. The other issue that bothers me quite a lot is what then am I supposed to do when I meet this opponent who has me matched and bettered blow-for-blow? What am I supposed to do then, having realised that THIS is the opponent we considered; that THIS is the opponent who is my defeater; that THIS is my Waterloo? Then what?
> 
> I would not for a moment suggest it wise to program ourselves into thinking that there is nobody who can beat us. What I am concerned about is what do we do when we meet this opponent that we KNOW; that we have ADMITTED to ourselves, we cannot possibly defeat?


 
The last paragraph first, you should never admit there is someone who can defeat you because if you do, you've already lost.  Admit you are not invinceable, and there is someone, somewhere, capable of beating you, but with each altercation, don't believe you can be defeated until this opponent proves otherwise.  A lot of times, the fight is in your head, and if you think negatively about it, then you *will* lose.  If we encounter that *one* on a given day we *know* can defeat us, why be party to the situation?

Now the first paragraph, I'm either going to defeat them in the first few seconds or they're going to defeat me.  I don't want to go blow for blow with someone.  What happens if they hit like Mike Tyson (in his early boxing years), I'm not going to be able to take much punishment.  One of my reasons for martial arts training is to finish the altercation as soon and as quickly as possible, with the least amount of pain and damage to me.  If you're trading blow for blow, equal skill, what's the use of fighting?  Call it quits, truce, whatever, go out and buy your opponent a cup of coffee.  Sit, talk about martial arts training.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 27, 2009)

Omar B said:


> This is why I walk around with a grenade.


 
Ahhh then I bow to you skill and armaments :asian:

That wouldn't be the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch would it


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 27, 2009)

zepedawingchun said:


> The last paragraph first, you should never admit there is someone who can defeat you because if you do, you've already lost.



Otoh, if you acknowledge the fact that you are NOT invincible, you might be inclined to avoid fights whenever you can, instead of letting pride or ego get you into one.


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## Tez3 (Aug 27, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Otoh, if you acknowledge the fact that you are NOT invincible, you might be inclined to avoid fights whenever you can, instead of letting pride or ego get you into one.


 
Very true!


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## MJS (Aug 27, 2009)

Jenna said:


> I am very grateful for all your posts, even you naughty people mucking about in my classroom discussion! Yes I see you down the back there haha!!
> 
> Well yes I too had thought it prudent to admit; I too accept that it is statistically highly likely that there was an opponent harder and faster etc than I. In other words, yes, there is almost certainly someone out there who can take me..
> 
> ...


 
1) The thing is, in this case, you're recognizing your weak spots.  I have weak spots and I do my best to work the hell out of them.  IMO, its much better to see what the weak spots are and work them during training, than to find out later on.

2) Always give 100% no matter what.  I may be getting my *** kicked, but I'm not going down without a fight. .  The other person will have a reminder or two of me.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Aug 27, 2009)

I have been beaten many times both in fighting and in other areas like sports or activities. I have also beaten others both in fights and other areas too. Even someone I beat one time beat me the second time but as long as you give it all you got and had heart you were respected by your opponent. I recall when I was in Japan studying martial arts and having a conversation with my mother-inlaw about the techniques I learned in the middle of me explaining out of nowhere she smacked me joking saying"if you are so great how come you can't dodge an old lady's hand?"


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 27, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Is it prudent to admit there will always be an opponent capable of beating you?
> 
> Or does such an admission lessen your chances of defeating that opponent should you ever encounter him?
> 
> ...


 
The original question was about whether admitting there is always an opponent capable of beating you will effect the outcome beforehand, your losing.  Not whether you should avoid a fight or prevent a fight from happening because your ego won't let it go.  

The question states an opponent is encountered, meaning the fight has already begun.  So now, will your preconceived notion that there is always someone better possibly lessen your chance of victory?  Most definitely *YES!*

Just like you are what you eat, you are what you think.  If you think negatively, the outcome will be negative.  In a combat situation (fight or altercation, whatever) you need to be as positive as possible.  It's alright to know there is always someone, somewhere out there, better than you.  But don't think this new challenge *IS* that person who can defeat you before the conflict begins and they prove it to you.  Because if you do, then you will most assuredly lose.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Most people can beat me but unless they killed me I'd come back when they weren't looking and hit them round the head with a baseball bat.
> 
> Seriously, old and sneaky beats young and fit everytime. In a fair fight I'd get beaten but, frankly, I wouldn't fight fair.


 
Tes,

Your comment makes me think of a quote from the character Jayne Cobb from teh TV series Firefly, 

"I'll kill a man in a fair fight, or if i think he'll start a fair fight"


As for me, I cheat, to survive and would cheat with no questions asked. Could I say they beat me literally and figuratively? Yes. 
But I learned a long time ago, the ones I walk away from before or after contact are the ones I call a win. But I am honest, and always tell people I got my butt kicked when I did, but I survived. 



Thanks


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## BLACK LION (Aug 27, 2009)

From my perspective which is purely combative in nature I have to be the better killer when its my life or the life of another on the line...  This has something to do with my military background and everything to do with the warrior path I chose long ago... 
 I have to forget about my worldly weakness yet exploit all of my enemies weaknesses... I understand they may take a piece of me but I will take everything from them...  
I understand that if my actions are selfless, right and just then there are forces beyond my human ability at work at that moment... Regardless of the outcome, there will be a lasting impression that will continue to echo through time and space long beyond my days...  

I am afraid but I understand there is no getting around it...but there IS getting over it...  My life is in the LORDS hands and if I am to meet my demise by his will then I will gladly fight until my blood runs dry...  He will give me the strength, courage and sound mind to do what needs to be done and if giving my life is part of the process then so be it... 
I understand that it is "evil" I am up against and I am there to show no quarter regardless of whats amassed against me...  


forgive the rant....


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## BLACK LION (Aug 27, 2009)

Btw...there are alot of good points here....


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## BLACK LION (Aug 27, 2009)

Jenna said:


> I am very grateful for all your posts, even you naughty people mucking about in my classroom discussion! Yes I see you down the back there haha!!
> 
> Well yes I too had thought it prudent to admit; I too accept that it is statistically highly likely that there was an opponent harder and faster etc than I. In other words, yes, there is almost certainly someone out there who can take me..
> 
> ...


 
Forgive me, I am completely one-sided when it comes to mindset and thats the reason I refrain from social or antisocial altercations... I do not compete or seek to compete any longer either... I understand that there is bigger, stronger, faster and smarter out there and I prepare to face that threat or multi-threat...when it comes I wont be playing by the rules that govern thier prowess or ability over mine...  
All creatures are equal in injury and trauma....


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 27, 2009)

_"In the end it matters not who is right, it matters who is left."_ -SGM Ed Parker


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## Nomad (Aug 27, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Is it prudent to admit there will always be an opponent capable of beating you?
> 
> Or does such an admission lessen your chances of defeating that opponent should you ever encounter him?



Prudent?  If we're talking about tournaments, I'd say that denying it would be a serious sign of delusion in my case.



Jenna said:


> There are two things that bother me bout this:
> 
> 1. If I have admitted that I can be beaten [no matter how probable] then have I not weakened my own psychological position from the get-go?



I see it differently.  Admitting that there is someone bigger, stronger and faster is a great motivational technique to work harder to make yourself bigger, stronger and faster, so fewer people fit into this category...



Jenna said:


> 2. The other issue that bothers me quite a lot is what then am I supposed to do when I meet this opponent who has me matched and bettered blow-for-blow?  What am I supposed to do then, having realised that THIS is the opponent we considered; that THIS is the opponent who is my defeater; that THIS is my Waterloo?  Then what?



Either find a quick exit or take him/her with you.  Seriously, if you know you're outmatched, don't get into the fight.  If the person is determined to seriously harm you, look into the not so deadly art of nike-do.  If that's not an option, then as others have said, make them pay dearly for the opportunity of beating you.  

There are many stories of smaller, weaker opponents taking out attackers who anyone would think had the clear advantage.  The odds are never hopeless, though they can be stacked against you.


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## Jenna (Aug 27, 2009)

Some of you are very clever and insightful bout this thank you again.  I am grateful to have such experience and advice around me it makes it a pleasure to be here you are all very special people thank you..  You have encouraged me to post the one last on this so blame yourselves haha..

And I do not want to annoy or upset anybody thinking I am playing games.. I would not change the scenario; the scenario is always the same.. You have admitted [it being prudent to do so] that you can be defeated.  You are not arrogant in matters of your defence.  Confident, yes.  Experienced, yes.  And but accepting that the potential exists somewhere somehow for your defeat.  You are sensible bout that.   Nobody could argue..

Please imagine then now that you are not talking possibilities, rather you ARE encountering this opponent that you envisaged.  He IS real.  He has no mind to chat, to have a drink, to be civil, to chill, to lighten up, to philosophise, or to hear your half-assed reasoning.  He is here for you unlike a nightmare creature that you can even ask why.  This is it.  There is no extrication or egress when you are already caught.  Instinct then.  Your very best move has just done NOTHING to him.   You see all your options struck off.  Perhaps this is your epiphany moment and you understand that this is check AND mate.  All  your arsenal is rendered second-rate with him.  There can be no disbelief that such a thing could happen when you have already established the possibility in your head.  This is you.  There is no time to rethink.  Time is all up.  What are  you going to do?  What?  Submit?  Surrender?

If you say this is nonsensical and unrealistic then I would just say that it is a metaphor on other things maybe.  You know like maybe when you hit a brick-wall scenario at work, what do you do?  Admit defeat?  Give up your job?  Maybe sometimes that is expedient.  Most times I think that option is unavailable.  I would ask how do you find something extra within you that EVEN YOU did not know you had?  Is that even possible or is it just pure fanciful?  What is that something extra?  Can it be quantified?

Ah you are going to be sick of me now that is ok and but I hope not because I value what you are all saying.
Always
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Janna


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## AMP-RYU (Aug 27, 2009)

"You can beat me down 100 times, but will never break me! For I am resilient, and will never give up!"


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## K-man (Aug 27, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Please imagine then now that you are not talking possibilities, rather you ARE encountering this opponent that you envisaged. He IS real. He has no mind to chat, to have a drink, to be civil, to chill, to lighten up, to philosophise, or to hear your half-assed reasoning. He is here for you unlike a nightmare creature that you can even ask why. This is it. There is no extrication or egress when you are already caught. Instinct then. Your very best move has just done NOTHING to him. You see all your options struck off. Perhaps this is your epiphany moment and you understand that this is check AND mate. All your arsenal is rendered second-rate with him. There can be no disbelief that such a thing could happen when you have already established the possibility in your head. This is you. There is no time to rethink. Time is all up. What are you going to do? What? Submit? Surrender?
> 
> If you say this is nonsensical and unrealistic then I would just say that it is a metaphor on other things maybe. You know like maybe when you hit a brick-wall scenario at work, what do you do? Admit defeat? Give up your job? Maybe sometimes that is expedient. Most times I think that option is unavailable. I would ask how do you find something extra within you that EVEN YOU did not know you had? Is that even possible or is it just pure fanciful? What is that something extra? Can it be quantified?


Perhaps we could look at it from the other side. Your opponent has looked at the situation and has decided, rightly or wrongly, that he can beat you. He must go through this process, and the reason he goes through this process is that he also knows he can be beaten. 
So, he picks you. Sorry Jenna, you're now on your own against this big strong ugly thug and he doesn't want to socialise. He doesn't know how good you are. His appraisal is that he can take you out and is not expecting a close fight, see his decision above. So he attacks and you're both into it, you're up against the wall and your strength is failing. You know you are in deep s#^t ... but he doesn't know that. He is surprised that you have lasted this long. He had planned just to beat you to pulp, not get hit back. Because he knows that out there there is someone better that him, suddenly he thinks that it could be you and he has doubts. You manage to hit him on that vital point you learnt last week and he goes down, just long enough for you to stomp on his ankle and run away. 
You have survived because you didn't give up. 
There's a script for a movie here somewhere ... "Jenna takes Goliath", priceless.


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2009)

A few years back there was an altercation among colleagues of mine, it happens lol, the guys were both ex forces so a fist fight isn't that unusual. Anyway one guy hit the other, a rather nice right hook which caught the other square on the jaw, now he should have gone down but he didn't, he did the Bruce Lee thing and just looked at the guy who hit him! That was a big moment of panic for the hitter, he'd just given it his best shot and it had no effect. He began backing away apologising profusely with us laughing, he didn't get hit back though, he knew he'd been beaten.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 28, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Is it prudent to admit there will always be an opponent capable of beating you?
> 
> Or does such an admission lessen your chances of defeating that opponent should you ever encounter him?
> 
> ...



Both.......hope that answers your question. 

Seriously, acknowledging you are not indestructible is good in AVOIDING certain situations........conversely, however, internalizing that knowledge can help ensure your defeat if actually confronted by a violent situation.

About the best answer is to avoid violent situations if feasible........but have a trigger whereby any thought of failure is banished when confronted by violence, understanding that in some situations violence will save you where caution will not.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 28, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Wining or getting beaten on, should never be an issue, and should never concern us through life. This thinking will only hinder our thought process. Clear mind= clear action.


 Exactly!

As Bruce so well put it.....



> "Forget about winning and losing; forget about pride and pain. Let your opponent graze your skin and you smash into his flesh; let him smash into your flesh and you fracture his bones; let him fracture your bones and you take his life! Do not be concerned with escaping safely- lay your life before him!" -Bruce Lee



Physical conflict is about action, not high level thought.......conscious concepts like 'winning or losing' merely get in the way of effective action.


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## morph4me (Aug 28, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Some of you are very clever and insightful bout this thank you again. I am grateful to have such experience and advice around me it makes it a pleasure to be here you are all very special people thank you.. You have encouraged me to post the one last on this so blame yourselves haha..
> 
> And I do not want to annoy or upset anybody thinking I am playing games.. I would not change the scenario; the scenario is always the same.. You have admitted [it being prudent to do so] that you can be defeated. You are not arrogant in matters of your defence. Confident, yes. Experienced, yes. And but accepting that the potential exists somewhere somehow for your defeat. You are sensible bout that. Nobody could argue..
> 
> ...


 

Another excellent question. The only way you know that you've met this guy is after the fact, you are already in a situation where it's too late to do anything but fight, if you submit, you're dead, unless you're in a ring with a referee. This is no tme to panic. Time to stay calm and start thinking outside the box, and start thinking about survival. What's around you that you can use as a weapon? What environmental conditions can help you? Is there anything you can put between you to keep him from getting to you? Hopefully you would have noticed these things beforehand, but maybe there's a different way to use them, could the baricade become a weapon? Could a weapon become a distraction that allows you to escape? At that point your mind and mindset are the best weapons you have, so you train to keep them sharp.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 28, 2009)

At the risk of becoming a little 'martial arts mystic' on this, one of the things that my iai sensei takes pains for us to begin to understand and enact is to "be in the moment". 

This entails not preparing for your next move before you have seen the affects of the current one and not to have a preconception of how things are going to turn out, for good or ill. This is hard to wrap your mind around as it at first sounds like "Don't have a plan" but what it fully evinces is the concept of not 'trapping' yourself by preconceived ideas of what you wish to happen. Instead, work with what *does* happen.

Under the mantle of such a mind-set, the scenario of meeting that no-longer-hypothetical somebody who can beat you, is not substantially different to a sparring match with a friend.  It aids you in coping with the fear and stops you 'beating yourself' by having a fight schematic that doesn't pan out as you willed it.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 28, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Some of you are very clever and insightful bout this thank you again.  I am grateful to have such experience and advice around me it makes it a pleasure to be here you are all very special people thank you..  You have encouraged me to post the one last on this so blame yourselves haha..
> 
> And I do not want to annoy or upset anybody thinking I am playing games.. I would not change the scenario; the scenario is always the same.. You have admitted [it being prudent to do so] that you can be defeated.  You are not arrogant in matters of your defence.  Confident, yes.  Experienced, yes.  And but accepting that the potential exists somewhere somehow for your defeat.  You are sensible bout that.   Nobody could argue..
> 
> ...



Then he's either going to die or I am.......there really is no complicated problem to solve.  It's really pretty simple when you get down to it.

Reality has shown, time and again, that the single key ingredient to coming out on top in a life or death struggle is mindset.......if we accept that, then we are forced to accept the fact that fear of failure is an impediment to that fact......UNLESS the fear is utilized as a weapon in the sense of motivating us to action.


The truth is that there are people who, on paper, have exceptional skill, superior in fact.......who can easily fall victim to lessor men, with a GREATER desire to triumph.......skill and physical prowess are secondary matters in life or death conflicts.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Aug 28, 2009)

The indomitable human spirit is no match for a lead pipe to the cranium.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 28, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Is it prudent to admit there will always be an opponent capable of beating you?
> 
> Or does such an admission lessen your chances of defeating that opponent should you ever encounter him?
> 
> ...


It depends upon the arena where this opponent is met. If you are meeting him or her in the ring for an athletic competition, it is always best to go in confident.  Ideally, in competition, one is paired with a competor of the same gender, weight, and approximate skill level as one's self.  

If you are referring to an assailant, winning means surviving, not prevailing. So in that aspect, I am less concerned about whether or not I can out-fight the person and more concerned about avenues of escape and neutralizing his or her attacks (blocks, dodges, disarming, whatever).

In that scenario, what one does leading up to the attack often is more important than what happens afterward, as the former can sometimes (not always) prevent the attack from even taking place. This includes awareness and common sense. 

I have no doubt that realistically, there are likely plenty of people who could beat a 42 year old desk jockey who trains in the evenings four days a week against other desk jockeys, dentists, and tradesmen and women who do the same. My goal is to get home alive, not win fist fights.

Daniel


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## BLACK LION (Aug 28, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Some of you are very clever and insightful bout this thank you again. I am grateful to have such experience and advice around me it makes it a pleasure to be here you are all very special people thank you.. You have encouraged me to post the one last on this so blame yourselves haha..
> 
> And I do not want to annoy or upset anybody thinking I am playing games.. I would not change the scenario; the scenario is always the same.. You have admitted [it being prudent to do so] that you can be defeated. You are not arrogant in matters of your defence. Confident, yes. Experienced, yes. And but accepting that the potential exists somewhere somehow for your defeat. You are sensible bout that. Nobody could argue..
> 
> ...


 
Even in this instance if I am thinking and able to move I have a chance...no matter what.  All living things have a weakness and its your job to know what, where and how...    Simple caveman gross motor tactics... If what you have isnt enough then use a tool that is... 
Your weapon is your mind and if you give up there your body will follow... 
If there is no way and all is lost... make a way. You are still thinking , breathing and moving then get it done... 
If you dont believe in a higher power then now would be the time to start and maybe while you are at is ask for the strength to get the job done... 

I am sure most if not all of us have either heard of the impossible or seen it... I have been in a few life/limb threatening situations to know that "principalities and powers" exist beyond human measure and comprehension...   I understand that, embrace it and for that the path is lit and I am protected as I walk...    


Its do or die Jenna... what you do or how you die... thats it...


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 28, 2009)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> The indomitable human spirit is no match for a lead pipe to the cranium.



The indomitable human spirit wacks the other guy before he has a chance to lead pipe him to the cranium.


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## Jenna (Aug 28, 2009)

*@K-man*, yes thank you for showing me that the opponent may also have reckoned with his own defeat.  I would imagine this opponent was otherwise considered invincible and but yes I am with you..  Goodness I do not know how you have read my mind with what you said and but yes I understand too that he might well surprised at how long we had stood against him..  I am very grateful for your pov thank you my friend that all makes sense thank you  xo..

~~~~

*@Tez* thank you for making your points and I understand what you are saying yes and I would imagine you have dealt with much of that kind of altercation.. I wonder can I ask you specifically a question please?  What would you do in a situation where you are NOT permitted to tapout this opponent will not permit you to tapout, you know what would happen and but you are in so much pain the only thing you can think is to tapout?  What would you do then?  Thank you so much Janna xoxo

~~~~

*@sgt_mac*, thank you sir yes I agree entirely with what you are saying and but are you genuinely so blase bout either he or you going to die?  Sometimes I would have that mindset whereby I would not care one way or the other and but instinct usurps even that mindset which - like you said - is also a high level thought [do not care if I live or die].. instinct takes over and we are forced to fight and suddenly we cannot consciously be so nonchalant.  We HAVE to fight.  We HAVE to survive.  We cannot say we do not care.  We DO care.  And but we are being beaten.  You already know that you can be beaten.  How do you overcome the idea that THIS is IT?  Thank you I would appreciate any reply you would give thank you 

~~~~

*@morph* thank you my friend yes outside-the-box blue-sky thinking is laudable and a sign surely of a good fighter yes I agree and but you know sometimes all that is gone from you and you figure you can maybe take one more in the gut and you are finished then everything becomes desperate and thinking time has evaporated like a drip in the desert.  Is there anything at all you can do to prevent the fulfilment of your own prophecy of potential defeat [for when we admit it, we simultaneously envision it I think it becomes like a prophecy, no?]  I do not know if I am being so cogent I hope you follow what I am trying to present?  Thank you even regardless, Jenna xo

~~~~

*@Suke* no sir we do not want you becoming martial arts mystic Meg then we have nothing to get hold of but puffs of protoplasm haha.. And but yes I follow what you are saying and thank you indeed..  Yes when it kicks off then thinking too many moves ahead puts us en route to a hiding I think.  I would not disagree at all you are entirely correct and only I think the surprise is when you realise that THIS opponent is relentless relentless relentless not like sparring a friend you give him the time out sig and all is good.  Would I dare to switch the track on you only a little detour and ask you what you would do then while you are going a few with your southern-style KF and your opponent ignores your T-sign to pause; bloodies up your face, ignores your plea you realise something has gone awry.  This is the surpise moment you had not expected like some kind of nightmare and but you cannot ask why.  Whoever this is, he is your match and better.  You are feeling as if you have hit the bag until you have no more punches left.  Now what are your options?  That is maybe too much, you would maybe excuse me for that I am sorry I would still be wondering what you would do though?  Thank you my friend you are always wise for counsel thank you Jenna xo

~~~~

*@Daniel Sullivan*, Daniel thank you for replying also and would you tell me how you think you would do then as a "42yo desk jockey" as you have said just there, if you are pushed into a corner by whomever this opponent is that by all other measures you would reckon as being a superior fighter.  What do you do when your fight is not working?  When even YOUR best techniques hard-drilled over the years are showing as second-rate against this opponent?  What do you do?  What extra can you bring to bear?  Survival, yes, exactly that is how singleminded you are..  I do not know I am just being general I am sorry if this seems awfully contrived.  Thank you again though either way, I am always grateful, Jenna 

~~~~


*@BLACKLION*, thank you my friend you know I would appreciate what you are saying specially.. And I understand yes that all living things have a weakness that is more profound than you would know.  Though it is asking too much that we apprehend the weakness in all things, having not met all opponents..  Yes I understand mind controls body that is the very point and but when body is beaten so much then mind cannot always stand up and shout "I AM STILL HERE!"  And then is that it?  Is that the end?  What do you do?  Tell me my friend because I know you are a fighter always.  Can you imagine that you have met your match and you know it?  He has everything over you.  What do you do when every muscle and sinew and thought inside you is telling you that you are beat?  I am sorry you would forgive me if that is just a dumb question I do not mean it to sound that way.  Thank you your input is valuable you know Jenna xo


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## still learning (Aug 28, 2009)

Hello, Can you be beaten?   ......only if they can catch us?

Escapeing is always the solutions....NIKE?

Aoha,


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2009)

Nice post Jenna!
 Do you mean tapping out in a competitive situation? If so the ref would have taken charge of the situation and stopped the fight before any serious damage would occur, it wouldn't be a case of your opponent not allowing you to tap, the ref would stop the fight. 
If you mean when being attacked I doubt tapping is an option anyway and I think you'd either have to suffer the pain and get out of it however you could. Touch wood I've never had to find out.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 28, 2009)

Jenna said:


> *@Daniel Sullivan*, Daniel thank you for replying also and would you tell me how you think you would do then as a "42yo desk jockey" as you have said just there, if you are pushed into a corner by whomever this opponent is that by all other measures you would reckon as being a superior fighter. What do you do when your fight is not working? When even YOUR best techniques hard-drilled over the years are showing as second-rate against this opponent? What do you do? What extra can you bring to bear? Survival, yes, exactly that is how singleminded you are.. I do not know I am just being general I am sorry if this seems awfully contrived. Thank you again though either way, I am always grateful, Jenna


Assuming that this is self defense and not sport or competition:

Backed into a corner by a superior opponent: First things first: get out of the corner. By any means necessary, being cognizant of him going for any weapons, such as a gun. What happens next depends greatly on what he does. If I can get away, I get to a crowded place as quickly as possible and make a ton of noise in the process. 

If in getting out of the corner, I incapacitate the attacker, so much the better. At that point, I call the police.

If it is sport or competition, I fight my best and make him work for his win.  If in the process, I win, so much the better.

Daniel


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## Sukerkin (Aug 28, 2009)

In the circumstance you describe, *Jenna* then for me at least, being English and all that, then my only option would seem to be to make my defeat a glorious one. 

If I can't escape, I can't reason with the opponent, there is noone to intervene and no weapons handy to even up the skill-gap, then (barring pure luck) I am going down. The only thing I can do in such a scenario is give a good account of myself such that my defeat is not a cause of shame to me.  

As I said in an earlier post, the only certain way to fail is not to try - if I give in to the 'odds' then I am certain to lose, so I'll 'play' for the long game and see if the cards fall my way.  

That's the retrospective rationale I give myself for that one real fight I occasionally bring up.  They were going to "do me" anyway, so I had nothing to lose and everything to gain ... especially when that first fellow came at my face with a broken bottle.  The odds seemed terrible and the environment likewise and yet I came out of it physically unscathed purely because I chose not to give in and used what I knew (including taking advantage of explosive surprise).


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## morph4me (Aug 28, 2009)

Jenna said:


> *@sgt_mac*, thank you sir yes I agree entirely with what you are saying and but are you genuinely so blase bout either he or you going to die? Sometimes I would have that mindset whereby I would not care one way or the other and but instinct usurps even that mindset which - like you said - is also a high level thought [do not care if I live or die].. instinct takes over and we are forced to fight and suddenly we cannot consciously be so nonchalant. We HAVE to fight. We HAVE to survive. We cannot say we do not care. We DO care. And but we are being beaten. You already know that you can be beaten. How do you overcome the idea that THIS is IT? Thank you I would appreciate any reply you would give thank you


 
I think you misunderstood Jenna, or I did. Sgt_mac isn't being blase. There's nothing blase about that mindset, it is an acceptance that death is an inevitable part of life, and that someone is going to die in this situation, and I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure it's not me. I recognize that it may be, but it won't be easy, and there's a price to be paid one way or the other. It's making use of the adreneline and not accepting defeat as an option, even though it's a possibility.



Jenna said:


> *@morph* thank you my friend yes outside-the-box blue-sky thinking is laudable and a sign surely of a good fighter yes I agree and but you know sometimes all that is gone from you and you figure you can maybe take one more in the gut and you are finished then everything becomes desperate and thinking time has evaporated like a drip in the desert. Is there anything at all you can do to prevent the fulfilment of your own prophecy of potential defeat [for when we admit it, we simultaneously envision it I think it becomes like a prophecy, no?] I do not know if I am being so cogent I hope you follow what I am trying to present? Thank you even regardless, Jenna xo


 
If that next one to the gut doesn't kill you, then you've got a chance. If you fell there's nothing left to lose, it's amazing what kind of resources you can marshall, and what kind of possibilites show themselves to you. The only way that works is if you refuse to recognize that you're losing or accept that since, you are losing, anything you do is better than giving up.


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2009)

My Tang Soo Do students are from the Queen's Royal Lancers, this is their cap badge, on it is their motto, Death or Glory and that's how it is. They lost soldiers last year in Afghanistan and are due out there again next Easter. No one wants to die but once you face the fact you are going to at some point anyway it tends to clear the mind and you just get on with it and fight!


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 28, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> At the risk of becoming a little 'martial arts mystic' on this, one of the things that my iai sensei takes pains for us to begin to understand and enact is to "be in the moment".
> 
> This entails not preparing for your next move before you have seen the affects of the current one and not to have a preconception of how things are going to turn out, for good or ill. This is hard to wrap your mind around as it at first sounds like "Don't have a plan" but what it fully evinces is the concept of not 'trapping' yourself by preconceived ideas of what you wish to happen. Instead, work with what *does* happen.
> 
> Under the mantle of such a mind-set, the scenario of meeting that no-longer-hypothetical somebody who can beat you, is not substantially different to a sparring match with a friend. It aids you in coping with the fear and stops you 'beating yourself' by having a fight schematic that doesn't pan out as you willed it.


 

  Ah, but in high level MJER, in Oku iai, according to Haruna sensei, as youre hitting your first target, youre already looking and tracking the second target. You dont even see your first strike hit.
  Not to be done in Seitei or Omori, especially with a shinken! 
  As for the OP, you do whatever you have to, and hope that its enough.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 28, 2009)

That is true to an extent (and I'm not going to dare disagree with Haruna sensei ).  

What I am talking about above is the general concept of _mushin_ when dealing with a singular opponent.  Needless to say you bring all the layers of _zanshin_ into play when there are multiples.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Aug 28, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> The indomitable human spirit wacks the other guy before he has a chance to lead pipe him to the cranium.


 
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to describe a fight as an Indomitable-Off


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 28, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> That is true to an extent (and I'm not going to dare disagree with Haruna sensei ).
> 
> What I am talking about above is the general concept of _mushin_ when dealing with a singular opponent. Needless to say you bring all the layers of _zanshin_ into play when there are multiples.


 
Ah, Cool.


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## blindsage (Aug 28, 2009)

I can definitely be beaten. If I am in a life or death situation, I don't care what the other persons 'skill' level is, I'm doing evrything I can to survive.

But I'm really not sure what you looking for here Jenna. You asked the question, a lot of people have given you really good answers from a diversity of viepoints, and you still have a "yeah but what if" for everyone. If you are completely outmatched physically in everyway and have no chance to survive? What answer are you looking for? "Stand up an take you defeat like a Samurai!" or "curl up in a weeping ball and pray." Where does your question lead? If you have no chance whatsoever no matter what you do, no matter how committed you are to survive and how quick witted and prepared you are for the scenario, then you die, unless the other person has mercy on you. What does admitting whether you can be defeated or not play in that scenario?


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> My Tang Soo Do students are from the Queen's Royal Lancers, this is their cap badge, on it is their motto, Death or Glory and that's how it is. They lost soldiers last year in Afghanistan and are due out there again next Easter. No one wants to die but once you face the fact you are going to at some point anyway it tends to clear the mind and you just get on with it and fight!


 
Tez answered these quite well, but being an American I don't know when to shut my yap and I feel I need to throw in my 2 cents 



Jenna said:


> There are two things that bother me bout this:
> 
> 1. If I have admitted that I can be beaten [no matter how probable] then have I not weakened my own psychological position from the get-go?


 
No, now you can stop worrying about it and relax



Jenna said:


> 2. The other issue that bothers me quite a lot is what then am I supposed to do when I meet this opponent who has me matched and bettered blow-for-blow? What am I supposed to do then, having realised that THIS is the opponent we considered; that THIS is the opponent who is my defeater; that THIS is my Waterloo? Then what?


 
If you are concerned about losing you are not thinking about the fight and you will loose but you are not concerned about whether or not you can be defeated because you know you can so you are not thinking about it at all, therefore you just keep fighting until you walk away or fall that is all. Just because you admit you can be beaten does not mean you will be


Were Samurai weaker or stronger, better or worse fighters because they admitted to themselves they would die in battle (aka already dead)?


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 29, 2009)

*



			@sgt_mac
		
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*


> , thank you sir yes I agree entirely with what you are saying and but are you genuinely so blase bout either he or you going to die? Sometimes I would have that mindset whereby I would not care one way or the other and but instinct usurps even that mindset which - like you said - is also a high level thought [do not care if I live or die].. instinct takes over and we are forced to fight and suddenly we cannot consciously be so nonchalant. We HAVE to fight. We HAVE to survive. We cannot say we do not care. We DO care. And but we are being beaten. You already know that you can be beaten. How do you overcome the idea that THIS is IT? Thank you I would appreciate any reply you would give thank you





morph4me said:


> I think you misunderstood Jenna, or I did. Sgt_mac isn't being blase. There's nothing blase about that mindset, it is an acceptance that death is an inevitable part of life, and that someone is going to die in this situation, and I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure it's not me. I recognize that it may be, but it won't be easy, and there's a price to be paid one way or the other. It's making use of the adreneline and not accepting defeat as an option, even though it's a possibility.



That's exactly right......I don't want to die, and i'm willing to do everything in my power to prevent that.  

Concern about one's safety, in general, is a good thing.......it helps you avoid danger.......however, once danger is engaged in close proximity, that kind of nagging fear isn't all that helpful anymore.......it can, in fact, limit effective action and ensure defeat.  In those rare instances aggression will save you, when caution will not.  Therefore, a certain measure of disregard for one's own safety, in exchange for defeating the other, is what is called for.

It kind of involves walking around in life with two contradictory mindsets........one for general day to day living, and the other, a special mindset that can be triggered in a moments notice when needed........kind of like 'In case of emergency, break glass'.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 29, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> My Tang Soo Do students are from the Queen's Royal Lancers, this is their cap badge, on it is their motto, Death or Glory and that's how it is. They lost soldiers last year in Afghanistan and are due out there again next Easter. No one wants to die but once you face the fact you are going to at some point anyway it tends to clear the mind and you just get on with it and fight!



I've heard it said that warriors are separated from everyone else in that, in the back of their mind, they perversely hope to be confronted by forces so much greater than themselves, that their defeat itself is glorious.

It's a tremendous cliche, to be sure, but that's the real, ultimate test they all have in the back of their mind........not whether I can triumph.......but can I, when faced with overwhelming odds, get back up one more time, keep my courage and my honor, and die an honorable death, struggling to the very last.

It's why we lionize the Spartan 300, the men at the Alamo, the jews at Masada.......we even admire our enemies in their tenacity to defend against overwhelming odds.


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## Jenna (Aug 29, 2009)

blindsage said:


> I can definitely be beaten. If I am in a life or death situation, I don't care what the other persons 'skill' level is, I'm doing evrything I can to survive.
> 
> But I'm really not sure what you looking for here Jenna. You asked the question, a lot of people have given you really good answers from a diversity of viepoints, and you still have a "yeah but what if" for everyone. If you are completely outmatched physically in everyway and have no chance to survive? What answer are you looking for? "Stand up an take you defeat like a Samurai!" or "curl up in a weeping ball and pray." Where does your question lead? If you have no chance whatsoever no matter what you do, no matter how committed you are to survive and how quick witted and prepared you are for the scenario, then you die, unless the other person has mercy on you. What does admitting whether you can be defeated or not play in that scenario?


Yes my friend you are right I had worried that people would get annoyed to push an apparent hypothetical out so far like this and I apologise I do not mean to annoy anybody I am sorry.  And but thank you for cutting in a little I think I am just in a bit of a bind and looking for magickal solutions.  I am sorry to get carried away.  I would say no more bout it thank you sincerely  Jenna xo


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## MJS (Aug 29, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Some of you are very clever and insightful bout this thank you again. I am grateful to have such experience and advice around me it makes it a pleasure to be here you are all very special people thank you.. You have encouraged me to post the one last on this so blame yourselves haha..
> 
> And I do not want to annoy or upset anybody thinking I am playing games.. I would not change the scenario; the scenario is always the same.. You have admitted [it being prudent to do so] that you can be defeated. You are not arrogant in matters of your defence. Confident, yes. Experienced, yes. And but accepting that the potential exists somewhere somehow for your defeat. You are sensible bout that. Nobody could argue..
> 
> ...


 
Like I said in my other posts....train hard and fight hard!  IMO, part of winning is the mental game.  While it would be crazy to say that we wouldn't be nervous, if we start thinking, "Oh man, this is my worst nightmare in front of me right now.  I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm probably going to die." then chances are, we're already setting ourselves up to fail.  In the end, even if we do lose, we need to keep that winning mindset.


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I've heard it said that warriors are separated from everyone else in that, in the back of their mind, they perversely hope to be confronted by forces so much greater than themselves, that their defeat itself is glorious.
> 
> It's a tremendous cliche, to be sure, but that's the real, ultimate test they all have in the back of their mind........not whether I can triumph.......but can I, when faced with overwhelming odds, get back up one more time, keep my courage and my honor, and die an honorable death, struggling to the very last.
> 
> It's why we lionize the Spartan 300, the men at the Alamo, the jews at Masada.......we even admire our enemies in their tenacity to defend against overwhelming odds.


 


The QRL have a glorious history and and long list of battle honours, the most infamous perhaps being the Charge of the Light Brigade by the 17th Lancers, part of the regiment now. They are still part of the Light Brigade (19th) now.

Their first battle honour was Blenheim in 1704 through Salamanca, Afghanistan in 1839, Khartoum, Ypres, Cambrai, Somme, Cassino, Tunis, Wadi al Batin 1991, Al Basrah 2003 and up to Afghanistan now with many battles in between. The present day soldiers are very aware of the 'ghosts' that perhaps still fight with them. In many of the battles they have faced death upholding their motto and while wars are to be condemned you can't help getting that shiver down your back at the thought of such bravery, excitement and the chance of a glorious death. The truth may not be so romantic but dear lord it is alluring! 

Gets fun downtown too as they keep fighting with the QDG (Queens Dragoon Guards), an older cavalry regiment lol! they have many battle honours too but you may know them from the U Tube rendition of  'Road to Amarillo'! Their regiment however has a link to America, in that they fought in the War of Independence (our side lol not yours) and Sir Banastre Tarleton was a noted member of the regiment. He was captured at Yorktown. 

The past is often very present with these old regiments as parts of the uniforms they wear such as the brass helmets are a hundred years old or more so the past is there in a very physical way. When they have the Sunset ceremonies and the Beating of the Retreat it's as if time stood still and as you said the thoughts turn to those battles against the odds and something better than ourselves is brought out, a nobleness, even if it's only fleeting. 

We have fighters from both regiments as well as infantry soldiers who train in the club.


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 29, 2009)

I have been on vacation (holiday to some) so I just found this thread

It dose not bother me to say there will some out there that can best me.  That however in no way means that I would not give my best in my effort to win.
The fact that I reconise that there are some better than me out there make me train all the harder and strive to learn even more


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## Guardian (Aug 29, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Most people can beat me but unless they killed me I'd come back when they weren't looking and hit them round the head with a baseball bat.
> 
> Seriously, old and sneaky beats young and fit everytime. In a fair fight I'd get beaten but, frankly, I wouldn't fight fair.


 

My thoughts exactly here.


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## Archangel M (Aug 29, 2009)

If you think "I cant be beaten" and your opponent is thinking "I cant be beaten"....well SOMEONE is going to be wrong. Perhaps both of you.


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> If you think "I cant be beaten" and your opponent is thinking "I cant be beaten"....well SOMEONE is going to be wrong. Perhaps both of you.


 
perhaps a better mindset is "I _won't_ be beaten"?


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## SensibleManiac (Aug 29, 2009)

Mindset is one thing and important but the truth is that everyone can be beaten and thinking otherwise will only delude you.

Having a realistic view and training realistically is only part of the equation, as already stated, avoidance is very important.
I would also add awareness being critical as well.

Ultimately, being beaten or not shouldn't be the question on our minds, 
can you survive? is a better question and one that isn't as easily answered.


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## K-man (Aug 29, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> If you think "I cant be beaten" and your opponent is thinking "I cant be beaten"....well SOMEONE is going to be wrong. Perhaps both of you.


And, at the end of the fight, there is really no winner. 


> The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. Sun Tzu


:asian:


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## MJS (Aug 30, 2009)

Not sure if the last few posts were directed at what I said, regarding the mindset.  If so, let me clarify.  If you look back to my first post, I did state that anyone can be beaten.  Yes, of course, again, as I say, training doesnt turn us into supermen and women.  However, I'm sure that every MMA fighter, every football, baseball and basketball team, goes out, onto their respective venue, with the win mindset, fully knowing that they may lose.  If you go out with the attitude that you're going to lose, then mentally, you've already put the odds on the other person.

Again, the person, in this case, the martial artist, needs to understand that no matter who we are, there is a chance that we could lose, or worse, get killed.  We need to understand we're not invincible.  But while we understand that, there is nothing wrong with keeping a positive mental attitude.

Mike


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## jonbey (Aug 30, 2009)

You have to believe that you can win, but strive to understand your weaknesses so that you can defend them and play to your strengths. Fights are lost in a second. 

Also, I recall reading once that the Samurai (possibly) would contemplate their death in combat once everyday. Not sure if/how it helped, but they were pretty nifty with a sword.


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## Tez3 (Aug 30, 2009)

I have to say too that running away works equally well for me, I don't worry about honour and being brave tbh, if running away does it that's for me. I'd rather be called a coward to my face than eulogies about how brave I was said over my dead body lol!


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 30, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I have to say too that running away works equally well for me, I don't worry about honour and being brave tbh, if running away does it that's for me. I'd rather be called a coward to my face than eulogies about how brave I was said over my dead body lol!


 
Id hate to be the one you run away from, because I know at 2 oclock in the morning youll be waiting around a corner with a baseball bat waiting.


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## Tez3 (Aug 30, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> Id hate to be the one you run away from, because I know at 2 oclock in the morning youll be waiting around a corner with a baseball bat waiting.


 
LOL, what can I say? It's true I'm afraid, blame my instructor. Ten years ago I was a nice little karateka, he turned me into a fighter. Well, it probably was always there, he just gave me the tools I needed.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 30, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> perhaps a better mindset is "I _won't_ be beaten"?



That is a better way of thinking......in that sense, in the sense of your will, it is the only thing you really control anyway.  Someone cannot TAKE your will away, you can only give it.

British poet William Ernest Henley said it best....




> Out of the night that covers me,
> Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
> I thank whatever gods may be
> For my unconquerable soul.
> ...


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## morph4me (Aug 30, 2009)

I think that mindset is probably the most important thing. Once you accept that death is inevitalbe, you can really start to appreciate what you've got and you can got on with the business of living, and all that it entails.

Once you live every day as if it may be your last, you don't just roll over, just because you've come up against an opponent that is more powerful or better than you, you do what you have to. 

Avoidance, running away, figting harder, taking him with you are all decisions that you make at the appropriate time and under the appropriate circumstances. You do what you need to do to survive, but in the end, we all end up the same way.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 30, 2009)

SensibleManiac said:


> Mindset is one thing and important but the truth is that everyone can be beaten and thinking otherwise will only delude you.
> 
> Having a realistic view and training realistically is only part of the equation, as already stated, avoidance is very important.
> I would also add awareness being critical as well.
> ...



I get your point, and don't disagree......I do take issue with the concept of 'survival'.........even 'victims' can 'survive'........merely surviving shouldn't be the goal........the goal should be to triumph and overcome.

When confronted, the path to victory is to impose your will.......and you do not do that by simply thinking 'Man, I need to eek out a way of surviving somehow out of this situation'.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 30, 2009)

I guess the simplest point to be made is this ONE question......

When faced with the moment of truth......what SINGLE PROFIT does it get you to wonder 'Can I lose?'.......note that doesn't mean BEFORE hand when the situation can be avoided, but when confronted by the moment of truth, what does fear and indecision profit you?

Answer: NOT A DARN THING!


The problem is that there seems to be a difference of opinion on who we should study to learn how to respond to situations........one camp says we should study those who FAILED, and emulate them..........I find this wrong headed........we should emulate those who SUCCEED and TRIUMPH in these situations.


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## Jenna (Aug 30, 2009)

I want to thank you all for your learned and insightful contributions and but no please why is there so much bout meditating on inevitable death??  There is an odd amount on graceful acceptance??  I know all of these concepts already I have read Hagakure after seeing Jarmusch's Ghost Dog years gone by.  I do not know why there is so much bout it being glorious to die, it is not!  For those who have to face death as part of their day-to-day, whether they were ancient samurai or are modern-day military personnel, they are not glorious bout death and but rather have reconciled their outlook to the very real possiblity of their demise in action.  It may be hidden amidst ostentatious mottos and glorious bravado and but that is merely a human coping mechanism.  Like when a man loses his sight he will ennumerate all the wonderful things he would not have been able to sense had he good vision.  And but that is a way of reconciling an outlook to a dire situation.  It is a way of COPING and nothing else!

That is not the same thing for these purposes.  If you are faced with an opponent that has you bettered in every way, then to say, "This will be my glorious death," is I think an inane notion!  Even when every bone in your body is crying, "!I have had enough and I am ready to submit!" still there is that hardwired instinct to survive that supercedes and CAN preserve you.  All I was asking was how does it work though it has taken me this long to figure my question.

So when you say it is prudent to admit to an opponent capable of defeating you, it is NOT prudent unless you also consider, in tandem, the possibility of your death therein.  And admitting the possibility of your defeat may thus become a self-fulfilling prophecy because it brings your BREAKING point; your SUBMIT point so much closer to you!

If instead, you eschew the idea of an opponent that can defeat you, then if you are unfortunate enough to meet that opponent perhaps you will have an extra layer of psychological armour or a burst of preserving energy that may be somehow called into play at the erstwhile moment you began to feel that irresistable urge to quit and surrender and submit.

For some maybe it is enough to have admitted the potential for their defeat knowing they would be sent off with a laudatory eulogy and but that is a tragedy in the true sense that they had not been able to contribute and enjoy their longest fullest life.  Eulogy is for the deceased.  Me I would rather live.

And I am sorry if that is a rant.  I did not mean to upset anybody with this importunate thread.
Jnna xo


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## Tez3 (Aug 30, 2009)

No one wants to think they've died for no reason so all the mottos, battle honours etc do actually mean something. It's a lot more than brain washing but it is important for soldiers to feel that their death will mean something, that they will live on in people's memories.Talk quietly to the soldiers here and they will tell you the pride they feel in their mates and their regiments, I've never heard a soldier talk of his death with resignation at all, humour yes but never resignation. Most actually think they won't be killed, that's the survival mechanism.
The glory and the honour of it comes for the families, when our student was killed in Aghanistan, his parents took comfort in the fact he went beravely, that he died for his country and the regiment his father and grandfather had been in.
I think perhaps the concept of the British regiments is not understood by many, it's more than just an army unit, it's family often as not literally. 

The soldiers for the most part are very young and the young think they will never die. Age brings more and more thoughts about death as you creep closer and closer inevitably towards the end so I guess it's different perhaps when you've lived a good deal of your life and can recognise that point when it's time to give in gracefully when you are beaten either by illness or an attacker. It's easier to slip away when you've lived. It doesn't mean you have to of course but if beset by crippling illness and incessant pain it's easier to decide that enough is enough and go without regrets. If you are young and haven't lived how hard that must be. 

Jenna please don't apologise for expressing your opinion! We like hearing from you!


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 30, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> No one wants to think they've died for no reason so all the mottos, battle honours etc do actually mean something. It's a lot more than brain washing but it is important for soldiers to feel that their death will mean something, that they will live on in people's memories.Talk quietly to the soldiers here and they will tell you the pride they feel in their mates and their regiments, I've never heard a soldier talk of his death with resignation at all, humour yes but never resignation. Most actually think they won't be killed, that's the survival mechanism.
> The glory and the honour of it comes for the families, when our student was killed in Aghanistan, his parents took comfort in the fact he went beravely, that he died for his country and the regiment his father and grandfather had been in.
> I think perhaps the concept of the British regiments is not understood by many, it's more than just an army unit, it's family often as not literally.
> 
> ...


 
I always found military people, something that was certainly drilled into us, was to look after buddy. Thats why military units ideally become cohesive groups, willing to do anything for the guy beside you. You always remember who helped you out and who didnt. Its never been about glory, its always been about not letting buddy down.


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## Tez3 (Aug 30, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> I always found military people, something that was certainly drilled into us, was to look after buddy. Thats why military units ideally become cohesive groups, willing to do anything for the guy beside you. You always remember who helped you out and who didnt. Its never been about glory, its always been about not letting buddy down.


 
Exactly, I believe Canadian regiments are the same as ours.
 Here they are based on geographical areas so the soldiers all come from the same place, they marry each others sisters, daughters (and sometimes wives lol) sons and brothers join up so they are a very cohesive group. They've been doing this for centuries now so the regiments battle honours and history become very important to them, gives them bragging rights over other regiments lol which they do love to fight.
The glory comes after the battles when the survivors mourn the fallen, when they are fighting it's 'die you bastards' though I have to say that watching a firefight on the television the other day between the Taliban and a Royal Marine unit, the two Commandos while shooting back and dodging the bullets were actually discussing what video to watch when they got back to camp so maybe that knocks all our fine theories into a hat!!


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## morph4me (Aug 30, 2009)

Jenna, I'm not sure where you're seeing graceful acceptance. There are certain realities when it comes to these things. 

Reality #1 Everyone dies. It's the only thing you can be absolutely sure of in life. If you're born, you will die. It's a fact. Whether you choose to accept it or not, whether you choose to think about it or not, it's going to happen.

Reality #2 Everyone can be beaten by someone. It may never happen, you may never meet the person who can do it, but you have to accept that he's out there somewhere. It can be someone you'll never meet, it could be your significant other, it could be your neighbor or best friend. Just because he exists, doesn't mean you'll ever have to find out who it is, and it doesn't mean you'll ever have to face him. It also doesn't mean that on any given day you can't beat him. As long as you're alive there is always a chance.

Acceptance does not equal defeat. You can accept these realities, gracefully or otherwise, or you can choose not to accept them, and worry about things that may never happen, or delude yourself into thinking your invulnerable. 

As Tez said



> it is important for soldiers to feel that their death will mean something, that they will live on in people's memories.


 Nobody wants to die, you do what you can to live your life and make it count for something, because you know it's going to happen. You don't go into situations because you want to die gloriously, you go into situations because you are the best chance to change an outcome, save a life, or many, because you make a choice that it's something that has to be done. You go into situations because someone is doing something you find unacceptable and you have to do something to change it, and if you die doing that, your life will not have been wasted.

Don't apologize for your opinions, or questions, this is a great thread, it's given us all alot to think about.


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 30, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Exactly, I believe Canadian regiments are the same as ours.
> Here they are based on geographical areas so the soldiers all come from the same place, they marry each others sisters, daughters (and sometimes wives lol) sons and brothers join up so they are a very cohesive group. They've been doing this for centuries now so the regiments battle honours and history become very important to them, gives them bragging rights over other regiments lol which they do love to fight.
> The glory comes after the battles when the survivors mourn the fallen, when they are fighting it's 'die you bastards' though I have to say that watching a firefight on the television the other day between the Taliban and a Royal Marine unit, the two Commandos while shooting back and dodging the bullets were actually discussing what video to watch when they got back to camp so maybe that knocks all our fine theories into a hat!!


 

Sorry Jenna, way off topic.

You&#8217;ll get a kick outta this TEZ. About a year ago I posted some of my Grandfathers military photo&#8217;s up on my blog, http://guelphfirst.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html
This week a gentleman in N.Ireland contacts me and has found his grandfather in one of the photo&#8217;s, (The Malta 1908 one). 101 years later, and the guy gets a photo of his grandfather. I thought that was so cool.

Again&#8230;Sorry Jenna


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## Tez3 (Aug 30, 2009)

I think too that we have to accept that many people, soldiers and fighters for example go into these situations because they enjoy them, the thrill of risking your life, living on the edge is a big turn on. Perversely, nearly dying makes you feel alive. 
Quite often it's this type of person that you have to be careful about fighting with if they were to attack you. I know a couple of so called hard men who aren't actually hard in the accepted way, what they have is a complete disregard for consequences either for themselves or others, living or dying doesn't mean anything to them. Crazy men but very very dangerous.


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## morph4me (Aug 30, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I think too that we have to accept that many people, soldiers and fighters for example go into these situations because they enjoy them, the thrill of risking your life, living on the edge is a big turn on. Perversely, nearly dying makes you feel alive.
> Quite often it's this type of person that you have to be careful about fighting with if they were to attack you. I know a couple of so called hard men who aren't actually hard in the accepted way, what they have is a complete disregard for consequences either for themselves or others, living or dying doesn't mean anything to them. Crazy men but very very dangerous.


 
Equally dangerous for enemies or allies, these are the kinds of people that get their friends killed too.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 31, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I've heard it said that warriors are separated from everyone else in that, in the back of their mind, they perversely hope to be confronted by forces so much greater than themselves, that their defeat itself is glorious. * <<<  THESE ARE SIG WORTHY WORDS...*
> 
> It's a tremendous cliche, to be sure, but that's the real, ultimate test they all have in the back of their mind........not whether I can triumph.......but can I, when faced with overwhelming odds, get back up one more time, keep my courage and my honor, and die an honorable death, struggling to the very last.
> 
> It's why we lionize the Spartan 300, the men at the Alamo, the jews at Masada.......we even admire our enemies in their tenacity to defend against overwhelming odds.


 
F----- awesome post SGT...


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## BLACK LION (Aug 31, 2009)

Jenna said:


> *@BLACKLION*, thank you my friend you know I would appreciate what you are saying specially.. And I understand yes that all living things have a weakness that is more profound than you would know. Though it is asking too much that we apprehend the weakness in all things, having not met all opponents.. Yes I understand mind controls body that is the very point and but when body is beaten so much then mind cannot always stand up and shout "I AM STILL HERE!" And then is that it? Is that the end? What do you do? Tell me my friend because I know you are a fighter always. Can you imagine that you have met your match and you know it? He has everything over you. What do you do when every muscle and sinew and thought inside you is telling you that you are beat? I am sorry you would forgive me if that is just a dumb question I do not mean it to sound that way. Thank you your input is valuable you know Jenna xo


Sunday we worked on what to do when you are being "dominated"... 
I was in one of these so called worst case scenarios yesterday in which my attacker had me face down and mounted... He put me in a leg and arm lock combo that I couldnt fight my wat out of with my body weapons nor escape from ...   I was stuck and if I was a female I would have really been in the crapper in terms of ability to fight my way out...  I couldnt do it at 5'11" 195...   my attacker was 5' 9" 250 lbs with an extensive football and wrestling background...  I was seemingly "beaten" ...   I realized that this worst case scenario was a "fair fight" in that I want improvising or being "unfair enough"...  out came my folder from my waistband and into the femoral artery it went over and over...  
He said, "wait are you stabbing me"... I said "yes" ...I had no way of dominating him on the outside but perforate an artery on the inside and now I am in business....  
I learned and I quote  "THE TRUE WORST CASE SCENARIO IS A FAIR FIGHT"....  take that for what its worth but it helps you to not only prepare mentall but physically...  Like the ninjas and judo masters of old I adorm myself with random tools that can be accessed when needed...  When I leave my home I dont just take the tools in my head and in my body...I take anything that I can legally carry or stash...   
Methodically placed labor saving devices... or improvised force multipliers...   

A big 300 lb maniac with a rapist whit is pinned on top of me and there is no perceivable escape... Scary... yes... Am I beaten??? sure, as long as I decide to play fair...   out comes the metal or what have you...  

I can be beat over and over again as long as I continue to play fair...this is why I train unfaily and unconventionally...


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## zepedawingchun (Sep 1, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> ... Am I beaten??? sure, as long as I decide to play fair... out comes the metal or what have you...
> 
> I can be beat over and over again as long as I continue to play fair...this is why I train unfaily and unconventionally...


 
In a life or death situation, there is no such thing as fighting fair, only who survived and who died.  And now-a-days, who knows when any altercation may be life or death situation.


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## Jenna (Sep 1, 2009)

I have somethings to think about here thank you all that posted I am very grateful indeed.

I would just put one other addendum and which is why I asked the question at all.. and that is, sometimes the unbeatable "opponent" is not a person and but maybe a disease.

Sometimes you need to find extra in the tank somewhere somehow to make those last few miles.  Does not matter what the "opponent" is, the principles of defence are alike.  

And but I would never expect to hear that it was glorious to die, that is how we rationalise a loss; it is NOT how we push ourselves to survive against odds and statistics.  And how can it ever be more glorious to die than it is to live?

Thank you everybodyfor your time and well-considered replies I love you all xoxo, Jnna


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## BLACK LION (Sep 1, 2009)

I have to thank you Jenna for dragging this one out becuase it forced me to look at how even in a "fight for you life" in which you shouldnt play fair we end up overwhelmed by the fright "response" from being dominated and we could find ourselves not being unfair enough... 
Maybe its more about being unprepared to be unfair... maybe its becuase of training done in a "comfort zone"...  
No one plans on being a victim of a simulated stabbing or shooting after they are dominating someone on the mat or whatever during training... My guy didnt expect that our "worst case scenario" in which he was totally dominate over me that he would be stabbed in the leg from a blade he didnt know I had...  
This has me thinking deeply about how much we perceive as a "comfort zone" even in training or as a trained "combatant"....  
This topic has me digging deeper for the "comfort of denial" even where it seems non existent...   
People walk around in thier own homes and although they may be trained and in thier comfort zone,they still have not afforded an "out" in case some un-conceivable sheet hits the fan... this carries on outside of the home and it gets worse since the "comfort zone" decreases to a 3' raduis around yourself if not closer... 
Someone may be trained but not affording themselves an out regardless of where they are and what the perceived comfort level is.... wether its the gym shower or the neighbors house or a movie theatre whereever you are and whatver you are doing there should always be an out and basically a plan to kill every potential combatant outside the obvious non combatants... 
Your true intentions are your most secret of weapons and should never be telegraphed or shown.... 
You should always seek to gain the unfair advantage in advance...asserting that you will meet a force beyond your strength but still made of flesh and bone and able to be dissasembled the same as any other...   
This also lends to the article from Hatsumis translator about using whats around you as tools...  multiply this with the tools you prepared ahead of time and now you are 3 times more potentially effective than without the multipliers...  
I dont listen to people who tell me what I should and should not do or ask why I carry this or that or train to face things that couldnt happen... 
I dont let anyone criticize preparation becuase it is vital to potential combat...  Preparation is the martial way and no good warrior should ever wake and walk the path without the tools to destroy anything that stands in his way... 


Long story short, anyone can be beat a thousand times over.. but you can only die once....   which one  you prepare for is up to you...   
The only difference is fair and unfair...  a fair fight you prepare for with your ego...   an unfair fight is one you prepare for with your life...  
Can I be beat, sure...I have been plenty of times...  My question in return and my only real concern is..... Can you kill me ???   
Simply becuase I already know how I am going to kill them.... it just has not reached that point yet...  

Never get caught in a fair fight or you may very well meet that "nightmare" opponent that you cannot best....   always prepare to be as violently unfair as possible and always have the tools handy to see it through...There is no such thing as a comfort zone that is just an excuse for not being prepared enough to face what is unexpected or unwarranted...  Evil does not sleep so preparation is a 24/7/365 job....


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 1, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I have to say too that running away works equally well for me, I don't worry about honour and being brave tbh, if running away does it that's for me. I'd rather be called a coward to my face than eulogies about how brave I was said over my dead body lol!



Kind of depends on what the consequences of running away are, doesn't it?  If it means leaving your mates behind to do the fighting for you, it's a whole other story.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 1, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I think too that we have to accept that many people, soldiers and fighters for example go into these situations because they enjoy them, the thrill of risking your life, living on the edge is a big turn on. Perversely, nearly dying makes you feel alive.
> Quite often it's this type of person that you have to be careful about fighting with if they were to attack you. I know a couple of so called hard men who aren't actually hard in the accepted way, what they have is a complete disregard for consequences either for themselves or others, living or dying doesn't mean anything to them. Crazy men but very very dangerous.



We call those men 'warriors'......not EVERY soldier is a warrior.....in fact most soldiers probably aren't 'warriors' in the strictest sense of the word.  The warrior is the rare exception to war.  Most men fight because they have to, they fight for their buddies.  A warrior fights because it's what he is. 

One warrior in war is worth a dozen, even a hundred average 'soldiers'.  The average person finds that concept 'crazy' because, deep down inside, they are troubled and intimidated by the very concept of a 'warrior'.  It's understandable.

A soldier is one who does his job, he does it because he's told to, and he usually does it to the best of his ability.  A warrior, on the other hand, does what he does because he's allowed to.

One can see the difference between the average soldier mindset and the warrior mindset by examining men throughout history.  Omar Bradley was a 'Soldier'.  George S. Patton was a 'warrior'.   George B. McClellan was a 'soldier', Nathan Bedford Forrest was a 'warrior'.


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## Live True (Sep 2, 2009)

Jenna said:


> I am very grateful for all your posts, even you naughty people mucking about in my classroom discussion! Yes I see you down the back there haha!!
> 
> Well yes I too had thought it prudent to admit; I too accept that it is statistically highly likely that there was an opponent harder and faster etc than I. In other words, yes, there is almost certainly someone out there who can take me..
> 
> ...


 All of the above assumes that you will 1)continually review the fact that there is someone out there who can beat you and 2) you will recognize that person the first time you meet them.

I think this is a concept one should consider, accept, and move on. Continually reviewing that you are fallible and human focuses on your weaknesses and is not productive. When you focuse on training for the joy of it or the "what if" scenario, then you are actively improving your odds of success and...hopefully...reducing the number of folks who are, indeed, better than you.

Also, even if you know you are against someone who is technically or physically better than you....if you are in a confrontation you were not able to avoid...do you really have a choice but to continue?  I don't think a fight should be conceded because you know your opponents have superior fire power, etc.  Everyone has bad days. Sheer  grit and determination have won some battles. And..if you must lose, it would be better to have done your best than to given up prematurely.

As you said, it's a psychological concept and issue to a point. So don't let your psyche...psych you out.  Accept the possibility and then move on to live and train as you would otherwise.  After all, there is also the possibility we can be struck by lightening, but to live your life in fear and avoidance of such...would lessen the quality of your life and not significantly reduce the possibility of it happening.

I hope that didn't get too far off the topic and addressed your questions!


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## Tez3 (Sep 2, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> We call those men 'warriors'......not EVERY soldier is a warrior.....in fact most soldiers probably aren't 'warriors' in the strictest sense of the word. The warrior is the rare exception to war. Most men fight because they have to, they fight for their buddies. A warrior fights because it's what he is.
> 
> One warrior in war is worth a dozen, even a hundred average 'soldiers'. The average person finds that concept 'crazy' because, deep down inside, they are troubled and intimidated by the very concept of a 'warrior'. It's understandable.
> 
> ...


 
It may not be politically correct but the majority of males joining our army do so to fight, they like fighting. Often soldiers are told to be quiet when the press is around because in this day and age to have soldiers say they can't wait to fight isn't what the government wants on the front pages of newspapers but it's true though, talk to any squaddie around my way and they love to fight. It has connotations of course as they also like to 'street' fight and do frequently, we have an army of brawlers lol! We have the Gurkhas here too, nice polite chaps but oh dear get the light of battle in their eyes and they are off, like the killers they are. There's two sides of me in this, one that I admire fighting spirit, I too like to fight and the other side that says 'oh no, this just isn't right'. It's had to reconcile the two sides sometimes.
I suppose it's like the attraction of MMA, it can be fantastic fighting when everythings going your way and you feel really alive with that sweet feeling of being otherworldy I suppose, I can't describe it sorry! and there's the thing of course that it's barbaric doing this and feeling so elated while doing it. Even if you lose that feeling is still there after all there's always another day!
The soldiiers I know think we shouldn't be in Afghanistan but they also relish the fighting and the aliveness it brings when you survive. We have them volunteering to go back time and time again. I think it's a deep primitive gut feeling that has been suppressed, maybe rightly, in modern life. the ones who have problems are the mdics who have to patch them up, they do heroic work perhaps not always recognised. With them is perhaps the truth of war.
I do know though it's something that we may all need to figure out for oursleves. Many people post on here that they enjoy fighting but are then shouted down by the martial artists that think fighting is uncivilised. They are both right of course. It's the elation of it, not the killing of course but something is there.perhaps it's a romantic thing?
Of course many battles are just sheer hell, the first World War but in that war the armies were conscipts now they are volunteers.
Perhaps this conundrum needs a thread of it's own? I'll have a think but must get to bed now as up early in morning.


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## Tez3 (Sep 2, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Kind of depends on what the consequences of running away are, doesn't it? If it means leaving your mates behind to do the fighting for you, it's a whole other story.


 
hell if your mates are there you can fight back to back! In fact looking at some of my mates they probably started it lol (half joking!)


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## Jenna (Sep 2, 2009)

Dear Shana thank you as always for your post with your insights.  

And you said..


Live True said:


> I don't think a fight should be conceded because you know your opponents have superior fire power, etc.



Will you tell me then please when do you think such a fight _should _be conceded?
Thank you
Jnna xoxo


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## Live True (Sep 2, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Dear Shana thank you as always for your post with your insights.
> 
> And you said..
> 
> ...


  Hey luv, 
I think a fight should only be conceded, if it's a life/death struggle situation (not competition as that's a much less dire situation in most cases), when it will gain something vitally important. Off the top of my head, if conceding a fight meant my child, my husband could leave unharmed...and I knew this would truly happen....then that might be worth it.  It's a situational thing, really.

but philosophically, if I'm in a life/death struggle, there are very few rules and very few things that would stop me fighting as long as I could physcially drag my head up.  I simply don't believe in giving up when you have so few options and choices.

and...after posting I realized that several things I said had already been said..thus the perils of coming to a thread late....GREAT post and GREAT readings. Thank you all for expanding my thoughts and concepts!


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## Balrog (Mar 15, 2011)

morph4me said:


> I don't know about being prudent, but it is realistic that on a given day anybody can be beaten by anybody else. That works both  ways, on any givend day you can beat anybody else. You won't know who will be able to beat you or who you'll be able to beat until after it happens. That's why the prudent thing to do, IMO, is to avoid that situation and make it a moot point.


Amen to that, bro.

Or as Sun Tzu said: 


> Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles
> is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists
> in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.


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## K831 (Mar 15, 2011)

Jenna said:


> Is it prudent to admit there will always be an opponent capable of beating you?
> 
> Or does such an admission lessen your chances of defeating that opponent should you ever encounter him?
> 
> ...



I haven't read any responses yet, but here is my psychology;

I KNOW there is _someone_ out there who can beat me.

But I KNOW it sure as hell isn't the guy I'm about to fight. Him I'm going to destroy.


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## elwin (Mar 16, 2011)

Jenna said:


> Is it prudent to admit there will always be an opponent capable of beating you?
> 
> Or does such an admission lessen your chances of defeating that opponent should you ever encounter him?


 
It might be realistic to admit that someone is capable of beating you, but it MUCH MORE important that you focus on the fact that you can beat ANY PERSON who threatens your life. 

You must ENTIRELY focus on what you are capable of doing, instead of thinking what your attacker "might" be capable of. 

If you do everything right, in how many life threatening situations where you _need_ to fight, do you think you can get in during your entire life? If you are unlucky or maybe made a poor choice, it may happen once. Twice is unlikely (if you survived the first one) as you will have learned from the first attack and prepared yourself more. Three times it can happen to some people, but not to students of self defense. Maybe to those who choose to stay helpless victims, those who stay ignorent to their surroundings, and others who are just plain reckless, etc. 

When that moment comes, you can defeat any attacker. His ability doesn't exist. His body will make movements towards you, and a weapon may be present, but you expected that. He may seem bigger, stronger or faster than you, but you didn't expect it to be easy and fun either. You have trained for this day, although you did everything to avoid it. Your only focus is on destroying your attacker as fast as you can, while at the same time ensuring the least injury to yourself. The principles and tactics stay the same, only the techniques used are determined by the given situation.


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## chinto (Mar 17, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> DAMN!!!
> 
> I just thought of this and I wish I had posted it first as my answer
> 
> "I Don't waste my time with it. When it comes, I won't even notice. I'll be too busy looking gooood."




yep, and well if you do let me survive, well age and treachery, take youth and skill, and of course there is always weapons..... why would you want to fight fair??? the object is to survive, not win points!


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## threethirty (Mar 22, 2011)

I absolutely can and have been beaten. In all honesty it may happen again.


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## Josh Oakley (Mar 25, 2011)

I am invincible! (Just ignore the many times in my life where I was soundly thumped, bludgeoned, bruised, and beaten.)


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 28, 2011)

Age and accumulated injury will eventually render even the winningest among us vulnerable.  Nobody stays undefeated forever.

Daniel


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## Hudson69 (Mar 31, 2011)

I think that this is, or should be a part of training.  If you think you will always win then the day you are losing you wont know when to disengage.

Have a win/survive mindset but understand that no matter how good you are or how hard you train there is someone better out there; ....the person you need to be training to be better than.

Murphy and his laws seem to have a say in the matter of winning a confrontation as well. and Murph is always out there.


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