# Just Noticed Something



## masurai (Jan 14, 2010)

I have been looking around different MA supply sites lately and have seen many foam/padded swords, staffs, knives, nunchakus, and FMA sticks. But I have not seen any foam/padded versions for chain weapons. It doesn't make sense to me.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 14, 2010)

Chain weapons need weight to work and foam is much lighter than chain.

My first sifu had trouble with the 9 section whip he got in the USA because it was aluminum and considerably lighter than the steel one he trained with in China


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## masurai (Jan 14, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Chain weapons need weight to work and foam is much lighter than chain.
> 
> My first sifu had trouble with the 9 section whip he got in the USA because it was aluminum and considerably lighter than the steel one he trained with in China



  Good point, but it seems to me that they could use a core of some kind that would have a weight to it and than wrap it in some kind of padding. Beginning training would be alot easier without the worry of hitting yourself in the head. I realize that no amount of padding is going to make stop it from hurting, but atleast it would make it not hurt as much. 
  Maybe there is something I'm overlooking, I'll admit I'm not the smartest person in the world and sometimes obvious things pass me right by.


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## jks9199 (Jan 14, 2010)

masurai said:


> Good point, but it seems to me that they could use a core of some kind that would have a weight to it and than wrap it in some kind of padding. Beginning training would be alot easier without the worry of hitting yourself in the head. I realize that no amount of padding is going to make stop it from hurting, but atleast it would make it not hurt as much.
> Maybe there is something I'm overlooking, I'll admit I'm not the smartest person in the world and sometimes obvious things pass me right by.


If you put enough mass in it (maybe a lead core?) and wrapped it with foam, all you'd do is slightly lessen the potential injury.  Let's scale it up for a quick thought experiment:  If I wrap a baseball bat in about 3 inches of some moderately dense foam -- can I bop you on the head with it if I swing at full strength?  Sure, it'd be preferable to using the unpadded bat -- but I strongly suspect you'd still end up with a headache, no?


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## masurai (Jan 14, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> If you put enough mass in it (maybe a lead core?) and wrapped it with foam, all you'd do is slightly lessen the potential injury. Let's scale it up for a quick though experiment: If I wrap a baseball bat in about 3 inches of some moderately dense foam -- can I bop you on the head with it if I swing at full strength? Sure, it'd be preferable to using the unpadded bat -- but I strongly suspect you'd still end up with a headache, no?



True, but every little bit matters. One time does make that much difference, but scale it up to about twenty or more times and that little difference starts to add up.
But then again I guess if it was something someone really worried about they could wear somekind of helmet.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 15, 2010)

A padded chain would have a lot less flex and mobility than a regular non padded one. Anything that relied on snapping the chain or turning would have significantly different dynamics.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2010)

A padded chain would be a rope, yes?

The problem I see with "boffer" chain weapons is that they would still be considerably more dangerous that other boffers. The chain/rope could wrap around a wrist or neck causing severe (possibly fatal) injuries. And in the litigenous environment of the US, I do not think any manufacturer would allow that level of liability.


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## Carol (Jan 15, 2010)

Just because something is a training weapon doesn't mean that using training with it is not without risk. 

"If you don't realize you can kill someone with a bokken, I don't want you using one in MY dojo."  - Sensei Frederick Lovret 		

Best bet would likely be to ask your instructors what they recommend.


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## lklawson (Jan 15, 2010)

Foam weapons seem to be mostly used for two-person drills and "sparring."  This is a niche that flexible weapons have trouble entering.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## masurai (Jan 15, 2010)

lklawson said:


> Foam weapons seem to be mostly used for two-person drills and "sparring." This is a niche that flexible weapons have trouble entering.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



That's true too. Oh well maybe in the future they will find a workable solution to the problem.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 15, 2010)

Carol said:


> Just because something is a training weapon doesn't mean that using training with it is not without risk.
> 
> "If you don't realize you can kill someone with a bokken, I don't want you using one in MY dojo." - Sensei Frederick Lovret
> 
> Best bet would likely be to ask your instructors what they recommend.


 
I believe Miyamoto Musashi killed a few with a bokken.



Chain weapons are dangerous to play with and you REALLY need to have an instructor to help you learn them and even then it is likely you WILL get injured


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## Jdokan (Jan 15, 2010)

I've used the white Plastic chain for techniques....lighter and faster but doesn't hurt (as much) when it hits...


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## Cryozombie (Jan 15, 2010)

For our Kusarifundo techniques we train with a rope with knots or braids on the ends to simulate the weights.  it works fine.

Like these:


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## Omar B (Jan 15, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> I believe Miyamoto Musashi killed a few with a bokken.
> 
> Chain weapons are dangerous to play with and you REALLY need to have an instructor to help you learn them and even then it is likely you WILL get injured



Yes he did kill with a bokken.  He also killed with an oar in a duel with a man wielding an odachi.


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## Kuk Sa Nim (Jan 17, 2010)

Greetings,
Safe training methods for flexible weapons.....yeah, I've had to deal with this dilemma in the past. It started with the three section staff. I used to whack myself all the time and as a result, I was weary of it and my learning curve really suffered. One day, it dawned on me, my weapon was made of rattan lengths, with metal caps at the end. Those REALLY hurt. This was back in the day before padded training weapons. 

So, for training, I just took off the metal caps and put on a full face foam head gear (I think it was one of those Macho brands), and I put on shin guards. Then I got to work. The nicks I caught were very minor, and I was able to immediately correct my form and technique. In about an hour, I took off the gear, and eventually put the metal caps back on. My control over the weapon had developed where I was able to really own the techniques. 

For the chain, I started with a rope dart. I made myself a version from the beveled end of a wooden stool leg, which looked just like the dart. It was a little lighter, but still maintained the similar properties of the weapon. I used a thick nylon rope, threw on my trusty head gear and shin guards and got to work. Before you knew it, I was in good shape to take the protective gear off and work with a regular rope dart, and nine section chain.

In terms of sparring, we came up with taking off our belts and tying the ends together in a knot. Put on some head gear, hold the belt by the tied knot end and start whipping away. My kids class LOVED this sparring. For the adults, as we got better, we put the knot on the other end. Good times.

So, anyway, those are a few things we worked on to develop flexible weapon skills. Hope this is helpful.

Just my two cents.    
With respect and brotherhood,
Kuk Sa Nim


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 25, 2011)

Hey,

As usual some great advise here already. I've recently been looking for similar things and I'd suggest checking out www.shinobigear.com, I can't vouch for them from personal experience yet but they have training versions of Kusari Fundo (some sort of solid core wrapped in foam with a rope chain), Kusari Gama (rope chain, high impact plastic Kama) etc. It'd probably depend on what you want to train - entrapping/throwing/whipping etc. Site looks half decent though and I've been told by all accounts their stuff is pretty decent as well so I'm going to be giving them a shot soon


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