# So how did Count Dooku beat Anakin and Obi Wan?



## PhotonGuy (Oct 11, 2013)

Qui Gon was having a hard time going up against Darth Maul and ultimately he was killed by Maul. The reason was that Qui Gon was old, he was over the hill, past his prime whereas Darth Maul was at his prime. That being the case, in the fight where Anakin goes up against Count Dooku the first time he loses and he loses an arm, in that same fight Obi Wan also loses. Now, Count Dooku is old, he is older than Qui Gon. As it is, Count Dooku was Qui Gon's teacher before he turned to evil, so he is significantly older than Qui Gon. If Qui Gon lost against Darth Maul because he was over the hill, than how is it that Count Dooku, who is older than Qui Gon and thus even more over the hill, able to beat both a budding Anakin and Obi Wan at his prime? It was only when Yoda came to the rescue that Anakin and Obi Wan were saved.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 11, 2013)

Better scripting? 

Years back, myself and a few friends analyzed that fight, from start to finish.  We came up with the conclusion that there were at least 10-12 openings where Maul could have been finished off, but they went with a fancy move rather than the finishing move.  Quigon lost because rather than finish his opponent off, he went with a cool move, while his opponent went for the kill.  QG fought not to lose, while Maul fought to win.   

Also, as to Dooku turning to evil....ehh...as they say that might be true, from a certain point of view.  I see Dooku more of a chaotic neutral type myself.  Anakin was in the same way, while Kenobi a bit more of a neutral good type.  QG was pure neutral.


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## Instructor (Oct 11, 2013)

Yes I agree, it played out that way because that's what was written in the script.


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## zDom (Oct 11, 2013)

Who is "better" or "should win" doesn't necessarily ensure victory; it just stacks the odds in their favor.

"Any given Sunday ..."


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 11, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> Qui Gon was having a hard time going up against Darth Maul and ultimately he was killed by Maul. The reason was that Qui Gon was old, he was over the hill, past his prime whereas Darth Maul was at his prime. That being the case, in the fight where Anakin goes up against Count Dooku the first time he loses and he loses an arm, in that same fight Obi Wan also loses. Now, Count Dooku is old, he is older than Qui Gon. As it is, Count Dooku was Qui Gon's teacher before he turned to evil, so he is significantly older than Qui Gon. If Qui Gon lost against Darth Maul because he was over the hill, than how is it that Count Dooku, who is older than Qui Gon and thus even more over the hill, able to beat both a budding Anakin and Obi Wan at his prime? It was only when Yoda came to the rescue that Anakin and Obi Wan were saved.



What are the benefits of the dark side? You get to burn points or energy for a harder hit or quicker response. The penality is that one may end up looking like the emperor or other negative side effects. 

Oh and it was written that way.


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## rlobrecht (Oct 12, 2013)

Dooku fought dirty, and Obi Wan and Anakin fought clean. Clean should be able to beat dirty, but not if skill levels are similar.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 12, 2013)

Anakin got his *** handed to him the 1st time due to over confidence and inexperience.   Kenobi was simply outclassed by a classic master of the sword arts.  Dooku also used Form II: Makashi, which relied on precision swordplay, emphasized fluid motion, and a strong defence.  Jinn, Kenobi and Skywalker were experts at Form IV: Ataru, which was an offensive focused aggressive form based on power, speed and strength.  Ataru however is hard on the body and fatigue common. A theory as to why a Master of Jinn's level was defeated was the combination of fatigue and being forced to fight in a confined space allowed Maul the advantage.
This led Kenobi to learn Form III: Soresu which relied on tight bladework and subtle dodges to provide maximum defensive coverage and was much less taxing on ones endurance.


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat#Seven_Forms_of_the_Jedi_Order


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## Blindside (Oct 12, 2013)

rlobrecht said:


> Dooku fought dirty, and Obi Wan and Anakin fought clean. Clean should be able to beat dirty, but not if skill levels are similar.



If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'.


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## jks9199 (Oct 12, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Anakin got his *** handed to him the 1st time due to over confidence and inexperience.   Kenobi was simply outclassed by a classic master of the sword arts.  Dooku also used Form II: Makashi, which relied on precision swordplay, emphasized fluid motion, and a strong defence.  Jinn, Kenobi and Skywalker were experts at Form IV: Ataru, which was an offensive focused aggressive form based on power, speed and strength.  Ataru however is hard on the body and fatigue common. A theory as to why a Master of Jinn's level was defeated was the combination of fatigue and being forced to fight in a confined space allowed Maul the advantage.
> This led Kenobi to learn Form III: Soresu which relied on tight bladework and subtle dodges to provide maximum defensive coverage and was much less taxing on ones endurance.
> 
> 
> http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat#Seven_Forms_of_the_Jedi_Order



Sometimes, it rather scares me how much time & energy some folks have put into Star Wars.





Of course, then I think about how much time I've put into learning to use several sorts of swords from a foreign country...


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## CNida (Oct 12, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> Qui Gon was having a hard time going up against Darth Maul and ultimately he was killed by Maul. The reason was that Qui Gon was old, he was over the hill, past his prime whereas Darth Maul was at his prime. That being the case, in the fight where Anakin goes up against Count Dooku the first time he loses and he loses an arm, in that same fight Obi Wan also loses. Now, Count Dooku is old, he is older than Qui Gon. As it is, Count Dooku was Qui Gon's teacher before he turned to evil, so he is significantly older than Qui Gon. If Qui Gon lost against Darth Maul because he was over the hill, than how is it that Count Dooku, who is older than Qui Gon and thus even more over the hill, able to beat both a budding Anakin and Obi Wan at his prime? It was only when Yoda came to the rescue that Anakin and Obi Wan were saved.



This is easy. It is addressed in the fiction, sort of. Qui Gon was a bit of a black sheep amongst the Jedi in a lot of ways. But he wasn't known as a terribly great swordsman. He was revered in other ways. 

Age has a little to do with it but not very much. The Jedi do train in physical fitness according to the books but a lot of their swordplay is used with the assistance of the Force, which is why 800+ year old Yoda is still a bad mama jamma. 

If I recall, Yoda was obviously revered as the best, followed by Dooku and Mace Windu, who weren't far from tying each other in ability.

Dooku was exceptionally good, better than the movies gave him credit for. His particular form is very graceful and more suited to dealing with one opponent, in melee. The fact that he could hold his own against two Jedi like Obi and Anakin is phenomenal.

Plus, like Bob said, Anakin was using Ataru, which is not very defensive. Wookieepedia quotes Yoda as saying that only true masters of Ataru can make it work defensively, which clearly he was the only true master you saw in the movies.

In their second encounter, Anakin was using a more powerful style than Ataru. I think he adapted Windu's style or something similar.

BTW, Darth Maul was probably as bad as they come. The books butter him up, but with how much he trained, he should have been able to eat anyone's lunch, maybe except for Yoda. It was through a psychologically traumatic event that Obi was able to kill him.

Otherwise, the movies would have been pointless.


____________________________

"He who knows not and knows not he knows not: He is a fool. Shun him. He who knows not and knows he knows not: He is simple. Teach him. He who knows and knows not he knows: He is asleep. Awaken him. He who knows and knows that he knows: He is wise. Follow him."
- Bruce Lee


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## Takai (Oct 12, 2013)

rlobrecht said:


> Dooku fought dirty, and Obi Wan and Anakin fought clean. Clean should be able to beat dirty, but not if skill levels are similar.



If you find yourself in a fair fight...your tactics suck!


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 12, 2013)

CNida said:


> In their second encounter, Anakin was using a more powerful style than Ataru. I think he adapted Windu's style or something similar.



Anakin used Form V: Shien / Djem So and VI.  After his'fall', he used a modified Form V combining " Juyo, Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi".  



> Form V combat was characterized by power attacks and defense immediately followed by a counter-strike.
> 
> Shien, considered the classical Form V, was more adept at blocking blaster bolts, whereas Djem So was developed later and intended for lightsaber combat. Both Shien and Djem So were designed to use an opponent's attack against them, as evidenced by Shien's focus on returning blaster bolts to their origin and Djem So's emphasis on immediately striking back after a blow


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_V:_Shien_/_Djem_So#Practitioners




> Form V, along with the other six classical saber forms, was invented by David West Reynolds and fencer Jack "Stelen" Bobo for the Fightsaber part of Star Wars Insider 62. The saber forms were retconned into both the original trilogy and prequel trilogy movies up through Attack of the Clones by assigning practitioners and instances of form usage to the movie characters.[1] Since then, numerous Expanded Universe sources, including the Jedi Academy Training Manual, The Clone Wars Campaign Guide, and Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, have further elaborated on the saber forms and the Force-users who employed them.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 13, 2013)

I had no idea that so much thought had gone into the light-sabre styles - I am impressed.

What style is this?

[video=youtube_share;NVV9q4rESPg]http://youtu.be/NVV9q4rESPg[/video]


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 13, 2013)

Now Suk, I'm not able to recognize the styles at first glance, so I'll have to study this a bit closer and get back to you later.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 16, 2013)

According to the novelization the reason Qui Gon lost to Maul was because of his old age, that he was over the hill whereas Maul was at his prime, at least that's what the book says. Obi Wan was young and had stamina but also because he was young he was sloppy and not as refined as Maul. Maul was old enough that he wasn't sloppy but he wasn't so old that he was over the hill.

Im not sure how many fans take the book seriously on that but that's what the book says. I always thought that age shouldn't matter if a person is strong in the force and has got experience. As a matter of fact, an older and more experienced jedi would be more effective than one without as much experience. The Force should give them the abilities they need. That is why Yoda can bounce around like a muppet on crack when he is over 800 years old, which even for his species is quite old.


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## Instructor (Oct 16, 2013)

Also, I hate to say it sometimes, even skilled fighters simply zig when they should have zagged.  If they had dueled a thousand times it's likely that Qui Gon would have won a large percentage but they only got to fight once.  Ever spar somebody better than you and win?  I have, not often, but once in awhile the stars align.


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## Zero (Oct 22, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> QG was pure neutral.


Are you sure he was a grey jedi or pure neutral, that may have been just the view of Council members due to his actions or how his actions were seen but not necessarily how he saw himself.


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