# Art to study prior to Kenpo?



## pknox (Jan 24, 2004)

A hypothetical question for the EPAK people, and one I've had to answer before, as well as may be dealing with myself in the future...

Let's imagine that someone wanted to study EPAK, but there were no EPAK dojos in the area where they currently live.  However, they are going to move in a year or so, and there would be EPAK dojos in the new location.  What art would you recommend they study in the interim, with the goal being to prepare them for their future study of EPAK?  Would you recommend they study a non-EPAK Kenpo/Kempo style (is it possible that this may actually lead to confusion, and do more harm then good), an art that is close but with different concepts (i.e. Karate, some forms of Kung Fu), or an art that is completely different, like Judo or Aikido or BJJ, so as to give them a more well-rounded background?


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## Brother John (Jan 24, 2004)

It's not so easy to answer this...
just as there was one unfavorable variable, NO Kenpo school in his area... we must know another variable: What schools/styles ARE in his area from which we have to choose?
IF there is a non-EPAK Kenpo school nearby, by all means that would be the best I think.

Your Brother
John


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## pknox (Jan 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *It's not so easy to answer this...
> just as there was one unfavorable variable, NO Kenpo school in his area... we must know another variable: What schools/styles ARE in his area from which we have to choose?
> IF there is a non-EPAK Kenpo school nearby, by all means that would be the best I think.
> ...



Well, let's just say for argument's sake that they have a pretty standard bunch of choices...Aikido, Judo, BJJ, Karate (both traditional and non-traditional), and of course TKD.

I thought the non-EPAK Kenpo school would be good too, but then I started wondering.  Some of the Kempo/Kenpo schools by me, for example, don't really teach EPAK specific techniques or theories, but sometimes use the names that are used in EPAK.  For example, I spoke to an instructor at one of these schools recently, and asked him if his system was similar to EPAK.  He said that they have some techniques with the same names, but the technique itself is often different.  He used Lone Kimono as an example -- unfortunately, I didn't press him to describe his technique, so I don't know how it is different.  My concern would be that it might confuse somebody, though.  In reality, for some of these "Kempo" schools (very rarely have I seen them use "Kenpo"), the only thing they have in common with EPAK, or really any American Kenpo for that matter, is the use of the black gi.  When it came time to start EPAK, would it be just like starting over, or even worse -- technique confusion, and habits to unlearn.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 24, 2004)

I suggest a grappling art. All other arts mentioned will ingrain non-Kenpo like basics into your being, and you may never succsessfully make the transition to Epak. It is also not as if the school you choose will not skew your thinking to there way of thinking.
Sean


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## pknox (Jan 24, 2004)

Very good point.  Would you be more likely to recommend a stand-up, joint-locking style like Aikido, a primarily ground art like BJJ, or a combination throwing/groundwork one like Judo (let's assume they're all available)?  I'm thinking the Aikido and Judo would be more similar to some techniques you'll eventually see in Kenpo, but on the other hand, the BJJ would do a good job of "rounding you out" as a complete artist.


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## RCastillo (Jan 24, 2004)

Wouldn't a "Tracy Kenpo" do, since it's Parkers old work, to begin with?


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 25, 2004)

If I had a lot of choices besides kenpo, I would go for traditional jujutsu or kung fu. In jujutsu you'll see a lot of the locks and ground work that are less addressed in kenpo, and in kung fu you'll see the chinese influence that is in kenpo.

But those would be my personal choices, and the quality of instruction available may have a great weight on my final decision


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## MJS (Jan 25, 2004)

If its Kenpo that you want, I'd say a Tracy school.  None of those around? Then I'd say any of the FMA or BJJ.

Mike


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 25, 2004)

Almost any art would be fine, "pre-kenpo," if it's well-taught by a good instructor. It will also be useful, if you're working with other students, for them not to be bullying idiots.

I might also mention that if I were to have to choose between poorly-understood kenpo from a bad teacher at a school of aggressive dummies, and almost anything else well-taught, I'd take the almost anything else without thinking much about it.

After all, one of the points that Mr. Parker seems to've had in mind was that good kenpo included the other arts, so...


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## Ceicei (Jan 25, 2004)

Ummm.

Most of the EPAK Black Belt instructors (and asst. instructors) at my school had training in other arts before.  I believe their other arts were Hapkido, Judo, TKD, Shaolin Kenpo, and Shotokan.   (Not sure about the last one, but I think one of the asst. instructors took that).

Apparently their experience with other arts actually enhanced their ability to teach EPAK.  [It is my understanding that Mr. Ed Parker had exposure to/training in other martial arts too.]

Now, if I moved to an area that didn't have EPAK, I probably will look into a Kenpo type school (Tracy's or Shaolin).  If neither is available, I may check out Aikido or Judo.  

It's not necessarily the style itself that will determine which martial arts I will pick up.  It would be the atmosphere and teaching approach of the school that will determine my choice.  I will look at how the instructors teach their style. (Does he/she seem to know how to teach?  How does he/she interact with his/her students?  What sort of a personality does he/she have? Is he/she open enough about other styles not to criticize or to claim their style the only one?)

- Ceicei


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## Brother John (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *
> I might also mention that if I were to have to choose between poorly-understood kenpo from a bad teacher at a school of aggressive dummies, and almost anything else well-taught, I'd take the almost anything else without thinking much about it.
> *



EXCELLENT point Robert!

Your Bro.
John


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## arnisador (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *After all, one of the points that Mr. Parker seems to've had in mind was that good kenpo included the other arts*





> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> *It's not necessarily the style itself[...]Is he/she open enough about other styles not to criticize or to claim their style the only one?*



*Ceicei*, I think you're arguing against taking kenpo at all! 

I'm not a Kenpoist, but on general grounds, taking something similar--like Karate--can both provide a person with a head start and also give them "bad habits" from the small differences between the systems. I took Isshin-ryu for three years in the late 70s/early 80s and I still often make my fists with the thumb on top! If it's only a year away, my advice would be to take something different yet complementary. If this is a H.S. student, joining the wrestling team is an option. In general, something grappling-oriented like Judo or BJJ seems an obvious choice.


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## AHinnebusch (Jan 26, 2004)

Just get some Video/DVD instructional tapes and study at home?  That way they will have at least a general syntax when they arive in the area with an actual Dojo.

Just a though.

~Andrew


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## Ceicei (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Ceicei, I think you're arguing against taking kenpo at all!  *



Am I?  I certainly don't think Kenpo has the corner on being the "best".  I'm all for cross training.  But....



> *I'm not a Kenpoist, but on general grounds, taking something similar--like Karate--can both provide a person with a head start and also give them "bad habits" from the small differences between the systems. I took Isshin-ryu for three years in the late 70s/early 80s and I still often make my fists with the thumb on top! If it's only a year away, my advice would be to take something different yet complementary. If this is a H.S. student, joining the wrestling team is an option. In general, something grappling-oriented like Judo or BJJ seems an obvious choice. *



...you do have a point.  It's possible to carry habits from one style to another, and not necessarily good habits.

However, if I'm going to another place, I'm with rmcrobertson's view:



> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson_
> 
> *I might also mention that if I were to have to choose between poorly-understood kenpo from a bad teacher at a school of aggressive dummies, and almost anything else well-taught, I'd take the almost anything else without thinking much about it.*


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 26, 2004)

Because, Andrew, I can't learn from tapes. I can only review and critique--and because, I'd argue, leaning entirely from tapes is for nearly everyone one more symptom of what's wrong with the martial arts in this country.

And then too, I overstated a case--problem is, what if you have access to MEDIOCRE kenpo, vs. good teaching in something else? Then, for me, it'd really depend a lot on what the "something else," was...

Part of the problem is, as was mentioned, some teaching creates bad habits. And some, I'd argue, takes you down a dead end street....

Thanks.


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## AHinnebusch (Jan 26, 2004)

Hey Robert,
I wasn't advocating learning expressly from tapes.  I know that some of the limitations from learning from tape are the lack of feedback, dialog and inspiration you get at a dojo, but to use tapes for a year before moving to an area where they have a good Kenpo school, what would be the issue?

Also, just out of curiosity, why do you say "I'd argue, leaning entirely from tapes is for nearly everyone one more symptom of what's wrong with the martial arts in this country."

~Andrew

P.S.  I'm sorry I missed the training on Saturday!


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 26, 2004)

1. Quick quick quick, rush rish rush, how much money is it, I can get that cheaper.

2. Learning a martial art is simply learning how to use a technology.

3. Learning a martial art can be done in solitude.

4. Getting the newest technology is best.

5. Getting the newest technology means I can skip the sheer drudgery and sweat part.

6. TV is the same as reality.

7. The cost of a thing is to be measured only in immediately-visible dollars.


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## arnisador (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Part of the problem is, as was mentioned, some teaching creates bad habits. *



Responding to both you and *Ceicei*, I'd say that while I agree, it's worth noting that another art might also teach habits that are "good" relative to that art but might be "bad" relative to another art. If you're going to fight Uechi-style, you've got to use the Phoenix eye (one-knuckle punch with the index-knuckle protruding). That's "good" for that art but maybe not for others. A "good" stance for TKD may be a "bad" stance for another art!

Some habits may simply end up being inappropriate in another art!

(I realize you're talking about differences in teaching, not just in art, and that's an important matter as well. Bad teaching can indoctrinate a student with unfortunate ideas.)


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## Ceicei (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Responding to both you and Ceicei, I'd say that while I agree, it's worth noting that another art might also teach habits that are "good" relative to that art but might be "bad" relative to another art.
> <snip>
> Some habits may simply end up being inappropriate in another art!
> ...



I understood your point when you brought up the "habits" issue.  Whoever cross-trains will definitely need to address this.

- Ceicei


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## MJS (Jan 27, 2004)

> _Originally posted by AHinnebusch _
> *Just get some Video/DVD instructional tapes and study at home?  That way they will have at least a general syntax when they arive in the area with an actual Dojo.
> 
> Just a though.
> ...



If someone already has a background in Kenpo then yes, I feel that the tapes would be a good learning tool.  However, for someone to think that they can learn solely from the tapes?? Not a good idea.  You wont get the fine points and all of the other good things as you would from an actual instructor.

Mike


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## Doc (Feb 15, 2004)

Well obviously there are a lot of variables here, and one of the biggest has to begin with what your own goals are in American kenpo. That being said however the decision is a "no brainer." Competent instruction in anything is better than poor instruction in something.

Personally one of my greatest assets is my expereinces beyond "Kenpo" for several reasons. I received an education in the martial arts from multiple perspectives and philosophies in general. Then specifically I studied the Chinese Arts with coincidently, someone Ed Parker Sr. studied with himself years before. Therefore when I met Ed Parker Sr., he was able to distill previous abstract information I received into a workable and tangible experience for me and gave me an appreciation for "Chinese Kenpo" I might not have had without a broader education.

Ed Parker's strength was always his ability to understand someone else's art better than they understood it themselves because of his broad background and exposure. That coupled with a willingness to examine, and the ability to separate and categorize information according to its worth is part of what made him a genius in his field.


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## pete (Feb 15, 2004)

well, wish i would have started earlier in life with any ma, learned to play the piano, and perhaps speak italian... but alas, i can only look ahead.


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