# Are we reducing or cheapened  what it takes to be considered brave or to be a hero?



## Chrisinmd (Jul 13, 2020)

Are we reducing what it takes to be considered brave or to be a hero?

I went grocery shopping today and they had a sign that says hero's work here.  Is the 25 year (assuming they have no serious underlying health issue) old cashier at a grocery store a hero for working during covid 19?

I guess when a lot of people think of the term "hero" they think of a guy storming the beaches of Normandy or pulling a kid out of a burning car.  Or a guy (or woman) jumping it the water and saving someone from drowning.

Have we cheapened the word hero to basically cover any "essential employee"?  I work as a city bus driver in the Wash DC area.  So should I be considered a hero for working with the public during this pandemic and possibly exposing myself to the virus?  Granted  there have been quite a few metro bus drivers who did end up catching covid 19 and did end up dying in NYC for example.  But im 42 and im in relatively good shape so yes I am taking a risk.  But I would consider it a relatively minor risk.  So does that rise to the level of showing courage or being a hero?

I do also notice the hero's work here sign in front of hospitals and places where medical staff work and I would completely agree they meet the definition of hero.

Anyway thoughts?


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## granfire (Jul 13, 2020)

well, yes, we are cheapening the term.

But no, not exactly because we call grocery workers that.

Not everybody who puts on a uniform leaves Ft Dix.
Or even if they do, not everybody actually does heroic things.

On the other hand, when everybody else got to work from the safety of home, they had to show up and brave the public which is more or less in tune with the situation, depending on where you are.

I mean, they have been insulted, assaulted spit at, coughed on, and yes, even been shot.
Most for the same cheap wage of always, with barely a mask or a pair of gloves to give them some sort of protection.
So, like their siblings in EVS, maybe not as glamorous as nurses, but every bit as important.

and considering the socio economic background, you know they are taking much greater risks than the white collar worker who shops at Whole Foods and has an all inclusive healthcare plan!

and yes, many are older. therefore at higher risk.

Alas, calling them 'heroes' is the cheap way out! Give them a living wage and a good health insurance plan! Save the signs.

ETA
yes, you would qualify, but don't kid yourself, 42 is getting on up there, and dying is the easy part of this virus. 
Too many are seriously impacted by this, long term/chronic.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 13, 2020)

granfire said:


> well, yes, we are cheapening the term.
> 
> But no, not exactly because we call grocery workers that.
> 
> ...


I wish I could agree a dozen times on this.


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## Steve (Jul 13, 2020)

My opinion is that it's fine, and I completely understand why they're doing it.  That sign in the supermarket is the company's attempt to communicate their appreciate to their staff of everything they're doing during this pandemic.  Whether that sign is perceived cynically or sincerely is an indication of the relationship between labor and management, but the sign itself is pretty clear.

I don't think it cheapens the word at all, and frankly, I think it's the absolute least we can do, considering a lot of these kids are taking a lot of unwarranted abuse from a lot of irrational people.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 13, 2020)

I stand by there is a thin and blurry line between being a hero and a idiot.   (generally if it works out you are the former if not you are the latter)


I generally think its been extended too much/you apply the title to behaviour that should generally be the default.  and then you just make people feel weird for not doing a taboo if you overplay them not doing it and such.


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## Chrisinmd (Jul 13, 2020)

Steve said:


> I don't think it cheapens the word at all, and frankly, I think it's the absolute least we can do, considering a lot of these kids are taking a lot of unwarranted abuse from a lot of irrational people.



I agree we should do a lot more then just hang up a nice sign for them.  How about "hazard pay" like they do for members of our military while they are a war zone?  Give grocery store workers and other essential workers a temporary pay raise while this pandemic is going on


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## dvcochran (Jul 13, 2020)

Chrisinmd said:


> Are we reducing what it takes to be considered brave or to be a hero?
> 
> I went grocery shopping today and they had a sign that says hero's work here.  Is the 25 year (assuming they have no serious underlying health issue) old cashier at a grocery store a hero for working during covid 19?
> 
> ...


Fully agree with you initial question. It is parallel to the title enigma. No one is called foreman or supervisor any more. Even though they are perfectly correct and logical titles. Too many people get very hung up on title, to the point they would rather be called manager or superintendent even when making the same (or less) money than people without the title. It is an innocuous way to get people to agree to accepting more responsibility without more benefits. Employers figured this out and now readily doll out 'lofty' titles in lieu of more pay. It is a destructive path that gave grater rise to unions back in the 60's & 70's. They were a good thing for a time, until the union leaders got greedy, misguided, and began over-reaching, ruining many good companies or moving them overseas.

Now I am certain some of the employers/people calling the average joe with the average job a hero are well intentioned. I am also certain there are employers doing or saying whatever they can just to get people to come to work.

I look at it from a different perspective; I greatly commend all the people who are willing to continue working instead of setting on their *** and getting a handout.
Our company never stopped working. Early on we were converting automotive lines to make PPE. That has completely stopped as the supply has far exceeded the demand, even in the midst all the current hype. The lines are either setting still or have been converted back to their original configuration.
One of my customers learned early on that there is 'fine print' in making PPE for government contracts. The product has to have an 'in use avenue' to qualify for full payment (never heard of that one before). In other words, if it is not used within a very grey and undefinable window the government does not have to pay.
My apologies for getting off on such a tangent.


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## JR 137 (Jul 13, 2020)

Heros kinda makes me chuckle. If that’s how people are motivated to go to work and brave this bubonic plague (more chuckles), then more power to them.

I make medicine at a biotech pharmaceutical company. I’m part of a team that’s making an anti-Covid drug that’s in phase 3 of clinical testing. I’m no hero. The other drugs being made at our site are very important too - treating macular degeneration, severe excema, severe asthma, cancer, Ebola, and a few others on that scale. The people on the manufacturing floor and our direct support staff (specialized cleaners, QA/QC, and the like) are the only ones on campus. The management sends us emails thanking us for our hard work (we do work hard, but no different now than before) and says we’re the “rock stars” of the company. You know what I consider my reward? My paycheck. You know what recognition I need? My paycheck. They’re giving us a weekly report-to-site bonus. I’ll take it, but I honestly don’t think we really deserve it. We’re just doing our jobs. Truthfully, I’m digging the ghost town atmosphere. We’ve go space to do our thing, the annoying people who try changing things for the sake of changing things are gone, the BS things we’re required to do outside of working on the floor have been suspended or reassigned. No lines at the cafeteria, free lunch because they don’t want us going out, ample parking. I could keep going.

This has easily been the best financial year of my life. I’ve done 10 hours of overtime every week except for 3 since the lockdown began. Adding that to my weekly bonus, and I’m cleaning up. Due to quarantines and people taking time off here and there, I could literally work every day last month, this month, and next month. One extra shift a week (I work 4 ten hour days) is plenty.

Yeah. I’m a hero. And a rock star. Nah. I’m just doing my job. And making extra money for it. I sincerely hope other essential workers are getting compensated appropriately, are given the option of overtime, and are being treated respectfully by their employers.


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## Danny T (Jul 13, 2020)

Well a hero is a person noted for courageous acts or a person noted for nobility of character.
Nobility of character: possessing, characterized by, or arising from superiority of mind or character or of ideals or morals.

If one is either note for courageous acts or is a person possessing or is characterized by ideals or morals they are a hero.


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## JR 137 (Jul 13, 2020)

Chrisinmd said:


> I agree we should do a lot more then just hang up a nice sign for them.  How about "hazard pay" like they do for members of our military while they are a war zone?  Give grocery store workers and other essential workers a temporary pay raise while this pandemic is going on


I’m pretty sure they’d choose a pay increase over any signs or anything else like that.


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## JR 137 (Jul 13, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Fully agree with you initial question. It is parallel to the title enigma. No one is called foreman or supervisor any more. Even though they are perfectly correct and logical titles. Too many people get very hung up on title, to the point they would rather be called manager or superintendent even when making the same (or less) money than people without the title. It is an innocuous way to get people to agree to accepting more responsibility without more benefits. Employers figured this out and now readily doll out 'lofty' titles in lieu of more pay. It is a destructive path that gave grater rise to unions back in the 60's & 70's. They were a good thing for a time, until the union leaders got greedy, misguided, and began over-reaching, ruining many good companies or moving them overseas.
> 
> Now I am certain some of the employers/people calling the average joe with the average job a hero are well intentioned. I am also certain there are employers doing or saying whatever they can just to get people to come to work.
> 
> ...


You reminded me of a former employer of mine. I was working for a college who was notoriously cheap with salaries. I liked the job, my coworkers, the students, and so on. And they really liked me and my job performance. But the pay sucked. I went to my immediate supervisor and had a good discussion about wanting to stay but couldn’t if they couldn’t do anything about my salary. He went to his higher-ups and discussed it. They offered me a new title and additional responsibilities that came with it. All for the same pay  I told my boss he could change my title to whatever the college wanted - president or toilet scrubber - but that wasn’t going to put food on the table. No one was surprised when I accepted a new job the next week and gave my 30 day notice, except for the guy who thought I’d go for the new title and extra work. A coworker took that title a few weeks later. I guess he thought it would look good on his business card and resume. He left a few months later too.


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## Steve (Jul 13, 2020)

Chrisinmd said:


> I agree we should do a lot more then just hang up a nice sign for them.  How about "hazard pay" like they do for members of our military while they are a war zone?  Give grocery store workers and other essential workers a temporary pay raise while this pandemic is going on


That's a pretty good idea.  When I was deployed, my military income was tax exempt.  That could be cool for them too.  Or just pay them a living wage.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 13, 2020)

Steve said:


> That's a pretty good idea.  When I was deployed, my military income was tax exempt.  That could be cool for them too.  Or just pay them a living wage.



See, its overlooked that soldiers get: Subsidied housing and food, get medical care paid for them and the income is tax exempt.  I think a few other things are subsidised as well.     Living wage when you pay next to nothing for anything is usually minimum wage.     This is not including the car scheem for discounts.  

The second best job is working on ships as crew.  Their paychecks are tax exempt.      


Now the bit i like is, pending your country the military has varying amounts of contractors, now those are usually underdogs as they do the same job as their counter part usually, get paid similarily and get 0 subsisides.  Now they normally dont have fighting as part of their job,but if deployed they can die and usually get increased pay like is done with soldiers. 


And it just popped into my head, i saw someone complain about prisioneers pay checks, they overlooked that they pay nothing in regards to rent, for food, utiltiies, clothing etc.  The money earnt usually goes towards "luxaries", its generally better as proof of change of chracter than the actual monetary income.


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## _Simon_ (Jul 14, 2020)

Without reading the thread, I'm not so sure.

I think bravery is simply stepping outside your comfort zone on some level, and facing fear of sorts.

That threshold and context is different for everyone.


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## CB Jones (Jul 14, 2020)

They are not heroes....sorry.  They are people just doing their jobs during this pandemic.

Years ago, during a shootout with a Aryan brotherhood member in a motel parking lot, a couple EMTs went into the parking lot to render aid to one of the officers down while the gunfight was going on....while rendering aid one of them was shot in the leg......those EMTs are heroes.

NFL running back Joe Delaney jumped in a pond to save three drowning children although he couldn't swim himself....he saved the children but drown doing so....he is a hero.

People should just take pride in doing their job without needing to have smoke blown up their ****.  They should be shown appreciation but claiming they are heroes.....come on now.  In my opinion, it's silly.


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## jobo (Jul 14, 2020)

Rat said:


> See, its overlooked that soldiers get: Subsidied housing and food, get medical care paid for them and the income is tax exempt.  I think a few other things are subsidised as well.     Living wage when you pay next to nothing for anything is usually minimum wage.     This is not including the car scheem for discounts.
> 
> The second best job is working on ships as crew.  Their paychecks are tax exempt.
> 
> ...


 you really cant lock people up and then charge them rent, thats just silly


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## Steve (Jul 14, 2020)

Rat said:


> See, its overlooked that soldiers get: Subsidied housing and food, get medical care paid for them and the income is tax exempt.  I think a few other things are subsidised as well.     Living wage when you pay next to nothing for anything is usually minimum wage.     This is not including the car scheem for discounts.
> 
> The second best job is working on ships as crew.  Their paychecks are tax exempt.
> 
> ...


I don't know about how, but the tax exempt status for military pay was only when I was deployed to a warzone. 

Can't speak to the rest.


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## JR 137 (Jul 14, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> They are not heroes....sorry.  They are people just doing their jobs during this pandemic.
> 
> Years ago, during a shootout with a Aryan brotherhood member in a motel parking lot, a couple EMTs went into the parking lot to render aid to one of the officers down while the gunfight was going on....while rendering aid one of them was shot in the leg......those EMTs are heroes.
> 
> ...


Couldn’t agree more. A hero needs to truly go above and beyond. Risking their life when that’s not in the job description is a good measuring stick IMO. 

Showing up to work and routinely doing what’s expected of you in your job description doesn’t make you a hero. General you, of course. Not anyone personally.

I’m showing up every day and making medicine. I was paid to do that before this mess, and I’m still being paid to do the same job during this mess. That doesn’t make me anything other than an employee who’s doing his job. If there was an active shooter on campus and I braved that to get into my work area and kept making medicine, then ok. But would that be hero or just plain stupid and insubordinate?


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## Steve (Jul 14, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> They are not heroes....sorry.  They are people just doing their jobs during this pandemic.
> 
> Years ago, during a shootout with a Aryan brotherhood member in a motel parking lot, a couple EMTs went into the parking lot to render aid to one of the officers down while the gunfight was going on....while rendering aid one of them was shot in the leg......those EMTs are heroes.
> 
> ...


It's important to remember that, as far as we know, these guys didn't ask to be called heroes, aren't referring to themselves as heroes, and as best we can tell, don't need it to do their jobs.  

Also, by your logic, we should stop calling every cop a hero.  They are, after all, just doing their job.


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## Steve (Jul 14, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Couldn’t agree more. A hero needs to truly go above and beyond. Risking their life when that’s not in the job description is a good measuring stick IMO.
> 
> Showing up to work and routinely doing what’s expected of you in your job description doesn’t make you a hero. General you, of course. Not anyone personally.
> 
> I’m showing up every day and making medicine. I was paid to do that before this mess, and I’m still being paid to do the same job during this mess. That doesn’t make me anything other than an employee who’s doing his job. If there was an active shooter on campus and I braved that to get into my work area and kept making medicine, then ok. But would that be hero or just plain stupid and insubordinate?


I think it's relevant that you are well compensated while the folks who work in grocery stores are generally not.  This matters for two reasons.  First, is the obvious.  We need to pay these guys better, but we are also asking them to work full time in direct contact with a bunch of assholes for peanuts.  Your risk if contact is minimal in your lab or office. So, you get paid a lot, and incur very little risk by doing your job.  Simply put, your situation is not the same. 

Second, this isn't a career for most of these people.  There are some career employees, but  2/3rds or so of them are kids putting themselves through school or working their first jobs.  You may not appreciate a simple gesture, but that doesn't mean nobody does.


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## dvcochran (Jul 14, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Heros kinda makes me chuckle. If that’s how people are motivated to go to work and brave this bubonic plague (more chuckles), then more power to them.
> 
> I make medicine at a biotech pharmaceutical company. I’m part of a team that’s making an anti-Covid drug that’s in phase 3 of clinical testing. I’m no hero. The other drugs being made at our site are very important too - treating macular degeneration, severe excema, severe asthma, cancer, Ebola, and a few others on that scale. The people on the manufacturing floor and our direct support staff (specialized cleaners, QA/QC, and the like) are the only ones on campus. The management sends us emails thanking us for our hard work (we do work hard, but no different now than before) and says we’re the “rock stars” of the company. You know what I consider my reward? My paycheck. You know what recognition I need? My paycheck. They’re giving us a weekly report-to-site bonus. I’ll take it, but I honestly don’t think we really deserve it. We’re just doing our jobs. Truthfully, I’m digging the ghost town atmosphere. We’ve go space to do our thing, the annoying people who try changing things for the sake of changing things are gone, the BS things we’re required to do outside of working on the floor have been suspended or reassigned. No lines at the cafeteria, free lunch because they don’t want us going out, ample parking. I could keep going.
> 
> ...


This post needs a Love button.


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## granfire (Jul 14, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> They are not heroes....sorry.  They are people just doing their jobs during this pandemic.
> 
> Years ago, during a shootout with a Aryan brotherhood member in a motel parking lot, a couple EMTs went into the parking lot to render aid to one of the officers down while the gunfight was going on....while rendering aid one of them was shot in the leg......those EMTs are heroes.
> 
> ...



By your description, the EMTs are just doing their job. 
And the Marines taking Ivo Jima weren't either. Just doing the job, sir.

Sure, the grocery store staff has little choice. 
But they have been putting their lives at risk so the society can continue to function.
They are given little in terms of protection, in terms of protection against the virus, and from irate customers. 

heroism comes in many different shapes. 
And most did not sign up for it. They couldn't care less about it, because, as you said, 'doing the job' because it needs to be done. 
the mail carrier caught in a gang shootout
teachers (for all they do that isn't in the job description)
and we found out that fastfood workers and store employees are more essential than we allowed them to be in our snobbish attitude. 
and that cleaning crew you like to overlook (generic, not personal)
An essential part of life


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## CB Jones (Jul 14, 2020)

Steve said:


> Also, by your logic, we should stop calling every cop a hero. They are, after all, just doing their job



They're not unless they do something heroic.


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## CB Jones (Jul 14, 2020)

granfire said:


> By your description, the EMTs are just doing their job.
> And the Marines taking Ivo Jima weren't either. Just doing the job, sir



Those EMTs job is not to go into the middle of ongoing gunfight unarmed to help a downed officer....that was a choice they made...and one many wouldnt have.

And I think the taking of Iwo Jima or being in combat period is pretty heroic.

Sacking groceries at a supermarket just doesn't meet the same standard.


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## Steve (Jul 14, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> They're not unless they do something heroic.


Tell that to... everyone.  

You also ignored the first part of my post, which is that these folks aren't referring to themselves as heroes, asking to be called heroes, or threatening to stop working because they're not being called heroes.  In contrast, some cops get pretty entitled, and we've seen in the news over just the last few months cops referring to themselves as heroes and acting resentful when they felt disrespected.


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## CB Jones (Jul 14, 2020)

Steve said:


> You also ignored the first part of my post, which is that these folks aren't referring to themselves as heroes, asking to be called heroes, or threatening to stop working because they're not being called heroes. In contrast, some cops get pretty entitled, and we've seen in the news over just the last few months cops referring to themselves as heroes and acting resentful when they felt disrespected.



I understand that.  I just think its silly.  I think there are better ways to show appreciation for your employees.

The heroes work here claim is just blowing smoke.

And I don't know of a single cop that calls themself a hero....that is media, administrators, or union reps blowing smoke.


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## JR 137 (Jul 14, 2020)

Steve said:


> I think it's relevant that you are well compensated while the folks who work in grocery stores are generally not.  This matters for two reasons.  First, is the obvious.  We need to pay these guys better, but we are also asking them to work full time in direct contact with a bunch of assholes for peanuts.  Your risk if contact is minimal in your lab or office. So, you get paid a lot, and incur very little risk by doing your job.  Simply put, your situation is not the same.
> 
> Second, this isn't a career for most of these people.  There are some career employees, but  2/3rds or so of them are kids putting themselves through school or working their first jobs.  You may not appreciate a simple gesture, but that doesn't mean nobody does.


I didn’t mention a single one of your arguments simply because I thought they were obvious. I go into the same convenience store every morning on my way into work. The nice lady working there is underpaid and under appreciated. She routinely says “I wonder how many times I’m going to get cursed out today (for tell people masks are required by law in NYS). Her job doesn’t pay her enough during “normal” times IMO. Then add that to it? Of course they’re taking a risk by dealing with the public. No ones debating that. At least no logical person. Of course she’s higher risk due to her age. 

But that’s not heroic IMO. Regardless of everything, it’s still just doing her job. I’ll ask her if she considers herself a hero. And I’ll ask her if she wants a sign put up. I’m sure I’ll get a whitty and entertaining response.


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## granfire (Jul 14, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> Those EMTs job is not to go into the middle of ongoing gunfight unarmed to help a downed officer....that was a choice they made...and one many wouldnt have.
> 
> And I think the taking of Iwo Jima or being in combat period is pretty heroic.
> 
> Sacking groceries at a supermarket just doesn't meet the same standard.



Under normal circumstances, it isn't
The point is, these aren't normal circumstances! 
Those who can stay home, to protect themselves from this virus of which we know far too little. 
They are in essence going out, unarmed, into a shootout. 

They are putting their lives at risk, so you can do curbside pickup and stay in your car.
As I said above, they have been insulted and attacked for things not in their control, they have been coughed at, and spit at. And some have been shot (some killed) for just doing their job. 

They have families at home, they are often themselves in a risk group. 

If you live in a civilized state, good for you. I don't and I see so many who are on their own, when the store (the big one, that could dictate policy, because there are few alternatives) just offers weak suggestions for safety, and flimsy protection for the workers. 

Although I do think that this hero worship is getting out of hand. 
Give them a pay raise, and save the signs. 
Give them a living wage, so they don't have to have 3 jobs. 
and enough PTO and sick leave so they can take care of themselves and their families.


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## Steve (Jul 14, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> I understand that.  I just think its silly.  I think there are better ways to show appreciation for your employees.
> 
> The heroes work here claim is just blowing smoke.
> 
> And I don't know of a single cop that calls themself a hero....that is media, administrators, or union reps blowing smoke.


Did you hear the NYPD union president's ranting diatribe a few months ago?  Whew... talk about saying the inside thoughts out loud.  

That said, as a criticism of management, I agree, though i'd be a little more charitable.  Some folks are motivated by public statements of appreciation, and others hate them.  As I said in my first post in this thread, this is a public declaration for the staff.  It's not for the public.  Whether it's perceived cynically or positively by staff depends on the strength of the relationship between the employees and management.  Either way, we're not the target audience.


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## Steve (Jul 14, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> I didn’t mention a single one of your arguments simply because I thought they were obvious. I go into the same convenience store every morning on my way into work. The nice lady working there is underpaid and under appreciated. She routinely says “I wonder how many times I’m going to get cursed out today (for tell people masks are required by law in NYS). Her job doesn’t pay her enough during “normal” times IMO. Then add that to it? Of course they’re taking a risk by dealing with the public. No ones debating that. At least no logical person. Of course she’s higher risk due to her age.
> 
> But that’s not heroic IMO. Regardless of everything, it’s still just doing her job. I’ll ask her if she considers herself a hero. And I’ll ask her if she wants a sign put up. I’m sure I’ll get a whitty and entertaining response.


Okay.  Real quick.  First, she may not appreciate it.  Not everyone does.  

Second, your position is entirely different from hers, which is entirely different from the grocery store employees mentioned in the OP.  My point is that you're creating a straw man by articulating your thoughts about your own situation, and that because you don't consider yourself a hero, grocery store employees shouldn't either.  Whether it happens to be true or not is incidental.  The connection between your situation and a grocery store employees is superficial at best.  

Third, whether the grocery store employees believe themselves to be heroes or not is independent of the gesture. I would expect most grocery store employees do not feel like heroes.  It's a gesture of support  and appreciation by their employer.  Sometimes, when they are sincere and perceived as sincere by the employees, they are very helpful.  When they are insincere or even perceived as insincere by employees, they can actually make morale worse. But if the question is, does this gesture dilute the word so that we can't distinguish between the risks of a well paid lab employee with minimal risk of exposure vs an underpaid grocery store employee at high risk of exposure vs an ER nurse with very high risk of exposure vs a bystander who runs into a burning house to save two children and a dog from certain death, I think the integrity of the relative language is safe.


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## Chrisinmd (Jul 14, 2020)

Steve said:


> But if the question is, does this gesture dilute the word so that we can't distinguish between the risks of a well paid lab employee with minimal risk of exposure vs an underpaid grocery store employee at high risk of exposure vs an ER nurse with very high risk of exposure vs a bystander who runs into a burning house to save two children and a dog from certain death.



Very well thought out and good examples.  I would certainly agree that the ER Nurse and the bystander who runs into a burning house are heroes and / or showed courage.  The grocery store example is where I could see an argument both ways.  I think it also depends on the particular grocery store worker.  A 62 year old cancer survivor who is at much higher risk of dying vs a 20 year old in good health.  Both are taking some risks but the 62 year old much more so.  

So how much risk of death does someone have to face down to be considered a hero?  If the 62 year old has a 25 percent increase risk of death by working at a grocery store and the 20 year old has 5 percent chance are they both heroes or just one of them?  I know you cant get that exact with the percentages but you get the general point.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 14, 2020)

Steve said:


> I don't know about how, but the tax exempt status for military pay was only when I was deployed to a warzone.
> 
> Can't speak to the rest.



Might have been fine print on one of their ad's.   You know how they do tiny corrections sometimes to be legally compliant, not looked into it recently.   I have heard people say that is a pro though that you usually get more of your paycheck upfront and it being subsidised.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 14, 2020)

jobo said:


> you really cant lock people up and then charge them rent, thats just silly



I mean you can.  Pretty sure you still get it taken out of your pay check, you just pay a really low number for your holding there.       Plus, you waived a lot of your rights signing the contract.    (and then prices and if you pay is dependent on if you have married quaters etc, or if you rent outside the base, they will put money towards outside rent i belive.)


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## ShortBridge (Jul 14, 2020)

I think that the narrative of the hero has always both been true and a propaganda tool to inspire other people to put their lives at risk for vague concepts like "the flag" or "patriotism". Not that those things never matter, but they do cover all manner of political sin (Faulkland Islands - as what I hope is a random benign example that doesn't invite debate)

I reject that heroes must die bloody violent deaths (sometimes by complete accident) rather than excruciating and unglamorous deaths in a hospital or at home when no one is watching. 

I'm not saying that all grocery workers are heroes or that they aren't. It's fair to say that they are putting themselves and their families at risk so that the rest of us can buy food. Are they doing that out of a calling for the greater good or because they can't afford to pass on their wages or even because they think the whole thing is a hoax? 

I am saying that the term hero has been cheapened a million times over before this example came up in 2020. No reason to get precious about it now.


----------



## Buka (Jul 14, 2020)

So....the EMT's that ran into the middleofa gunfight to treat a Police Officer, and the Fire-fighter who ran back into a burning house to save a pet on the top floor - no doubt heroes. But what about two years later? Are they still heroes because of the heroic acts? Or is there an expiration date?


----------



## Steve (Jul 14, 2020)

Buka said:


> So....the EMT's that ran into the middleofa gunfight to treat a Police Officer, and the Fire-fighter who ran back into a burning house to save a pet on the top floor - no doubt heroes. But what about two years later? Are they still heroes because of the heroic acts? Or is there an expiration date?


Great questions.  

What if the EMT was a member of the Proud Boys?


----------



## CB Jones (Jul 14, 2020)

Buka said:


> So....the EMT's that ran into the middleofa gunfight to treat a Police Officer, and the Fire-fighter who ran back into a burning house to save a pet on the top floor - no doubt heroes. But what about two years later? Are they still heroes because of the heroic acts? Or is there an expiration date?



To me....still heroes.

They earned earned that title/claim


----------



## jobo (Jul 14, 2020)

Buka said:


> So....the EMT's that ran into the middleofa gunfight to treat a Police Officer, and the Fire-fighter who ran back into a burning house to save a pet on the top floor - no doubt heroes. But what about two years later? Are they still heroes because of the heroic acts? Or is there an expiration date?


it has an expiry date unless they gave you a medal with the word hero on it some years ago, there was a rather sad case

a guy obviously deeply depressed jump in front of a train, as luck would have it he lost a leg but otherwise survived. he told the police he was rescuing a dog that someone had tied to the line. then he was a hero, he was on teli in the papers people sent him money, ets etc and he was now happy

however his hero status expired and he just went back to being a non hero, only with one less leg, which i imagine made things worse

so he went back to the same place and put his other leg on the line, and told the same story, only this time no one believed him


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 14, 2020)

granfire said:


> By your description, the EMTs are just doing their job.
> And the Marines taking Ivo Jima weren't either. Just doing the job, sir.
> 
> Sure, the grocery store staff has little choice.
> ...


Frankly, that is hilariously over dramatic. You clearly did not 'hear' what CB Jones wrote. I would try to explain but I get the feeling it is pointless.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 14, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> I think that the narrative of the hero has always both been true and a propaganda tool to inspire other people to put their lives at risk for vague concepts like "the flag" or "patriotism". Not that those things never matter, but they do cover all manner of political sin (Faulkland Islands - as what I hope is a random benign example that doesn't invite debate)
> 
> I reject that heroes must die bloody violent deaths (sometimes by complete accident) rather than excruciating and unglamorous deaths in a hospital or at home when no one is watching.
> 
> ...


Wow. Did you not have a history class in grade school? Read a book. How/where you get the flag or patriotism as 'vague concepts' is offensive and an outright glaring indication of your ignorance. You think either construct is political? Dude. The Faulkland islands war was between Argentina and the United Kingdom. 

Who said anything about all hero's dying 'bloody violent deaths'? Jumping to a rather irrational extreme aren't we? It is pretty clear what Kool-Aid you are drinking. Sad.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 14, 2020)

Steve said:


> Great questions.
> 
> What if the EMT was a member of the Proud Boys?


You are the MT equivalent of a radio shock jock.


----------



## Steve (Jul 14, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> You are the MT equivalent of a radio shock jock.


Says the guy who started his last post with, "Wow. Did you not have a history class in grade school? Read a book." And the previous post where you say, "I would try to explain but I get the feeling it would be pointless."

So, you're on a roll.  Three posts in a row that add zero value to the discussion.

Also, for what it's worth, my post was a tongue in cheek response.  If you took a second and were just a little more self aware, I think it would have been obvious to you.


----------



## ShortBridge (Jul 14, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Wow. Did you not have a history class in grade school? Read a book. How/where you get the flag or patriotism as 'vague concepts' is offensive and an outright glaring indication of your ignorance. You think either construct is political? Dude. The Faulkland islands war was between Argentina and the United Kingdom.
> 
> Who said anything about all hero's dying 'bloody violent deaths'? Jumping to a rather irrational extreme aren't we? It is pretty clear what Kool-Aid you are drinking. Sad.



You know, I'll make one attempt to dialogue with you and then I'm out.

I am aware of the facts of the Falklands conflict. Quite aware, know my history pretty well, spent some time in Argentina. I've even read some books, if you can believe that. I chose that as example because I thought it was least likely to trigger somebody. Clearly I was mistaken.

As for the rest of your outrage...read what I wrote again more carefully or move on. You're twisting it into something that is different in substance and sentiment than what it is.

If that doesn't work for you, I suggest putting me on your ignore list.


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 14, 2020)

Steve said:


> Okay.  Real quick.  First, she may not appreciate it.  Not everyone does.
> 
> Second, your position is entirely different from hers, which is entirely different from the grocery store employees mentioned in the OP.  My point is that you're creating a straw man by articulating your thoughts about your own situation, and that because you don't consider yourself a hero, grocery store employees shouldn't either.  Whether it happens to be true or not is incidental.  The connection between your situation and a grocery store employees is superficial at best.
> 
> Third, whether the grocery store employees believe themselves to be heroes or not is independent of the gesture. I would expect most grocery store employees do not feel like heroes.  It's a gesture of support  and appreciation by their employer.  Sometimes, when they are sincere and perceived as sincere by the employees, they are very helpful.  When they are insincere or even perceived as insincere by employees, they can actually make morale worse. But if the question is, does this gesture dilute the word so that we can't distinguish between the risks of a well paid lab employee with minimal risk of exposure vs an underpaid grocery store employee at high risk of exposure vs an ER nurse with very high risk of exposure vs a bystander who runs into a burning house to save two children and a dog from certain death, I think the integrity of the relative language is safe.


I never said anyone has to think like me. Not sure how this is an argument (in the literal sense, not the typically thought of sense). People can consider themselves heros, and I can agree or disagree with their feelings. If the grocery store cashier who cashed me out today or the woman at the bagel shop who served me a dozen bagels to go consider themselves heros is their business. More power to them.

I don’t consider them heros. I just consider them people who are working and putting up with even more BS than usual. Good on them for doing their job and keeping things going. It would really suck if they and everyone else who’s doing similar work refused to. I sincerely mean that. But I don’t consider that heroic. Doing the right thing? Absolutely. If they appreciate being called heros, that’s their call. I won’t do it, but I won’t voice my opinion to them either. I just don’t care to get into that debate. And frankly, I’ve given this debate far more energy than I should’ve.

My interpretation of a hero is different than others’. Everyone’s entitled to their own interpretation. Everyone can acknowledge or renounce their hero status, and it won’t change how I go about my day in any way, shape, or form.


----------



## Steve (Jul 14, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> I never said anyone has to think like me. Not sure how this is an argument (in the literal sense, not the typically thought of sense). People can consider themselves heros, and I can agree or disagree with their feelings. If the grocery store cashier who cashed me out today or the woman at the bagel shop who served me a dozen bagels to go consider themselves heros is their business. More power to them.
> 
> I don’t consider them heros. I just consider them people who are working and putting up with even more BS than usual. Good on them for doing their job and keeping things going. It would really suck if they and everyone else who’s doing similar work refused to. I sincerely mean that. But I don’t consider that heroic. Doing the right thing? Absolutely. If they appreciate being called heros, that’s their call. I won’t do it, but I won’t voice my opinion to them either. I just don’t care to get into that debate. And frankly, I’ve given this debate far more energy than I should’ve.
> 
> My interpretation of a hero is different than others’. Everyone’s entitled to their own interpretation. Everyone can acknowledge or renounce their hero status, and it won’t change how I go about my day in any way, shape, or form.


Argument not in the negative sense.  But if you have a premise and a conclusion, it's an argument.  

I respect your opinion.  We don't have to agree, though with that said, if you think I'm trying to convince you that they are heroes, I don't think I was clear because that's not my point.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jul 14, 2020)

CB Jones said:


> They are not heroes....sorry.  They are people just doing their jobs during this pandemic.
> 
> Years ago, during a shootout with a Aryan brotherhood member in a motel parking lot, a couple EMTs went into the parking lot to render aid to one of the officers down while the gunfight was going on....while rendering aid one of them was shot in the leg......those EMTs are heroes.
> 
> ...





JR 137 said:


> Couldn’t agree more. A hero needs to truly go above and beyond. Risking their life when that’s not in the job description is a good measuring stick IMO.
> 
> Showing up to work and routinely doing what’s expected of you in your job description doesn’t make you a hero. General you, of course. Not anyone personally.
> 
> I’m showing up every day and making medicine. I was paid to do that before this mess, and I’m still being paid to do the same job during this mess. That doesn’t make me anything other than an employee who’s doing his job. If there was an active shooter on campus and I braved that to get into my work area and kept making medicine, then ok. But would that be hero or just plain stupid and insubordinate?


Hmm.. same job/task, different context though.

They're now putting themselves at much higher risk, and choosing to do so. Especially those who may work in supermarkets, something that everyone needs, and will attract huge numbers of people.

They're exposing themselves to hundreds of people each and every day they're out there. I know I'd be anxious about that at the moment if I worked in supermarkets.

I don't know about it being a hero status, but I would certainly attribute some level of bravery.

In the past, me simply getting out of bed each and every day was incredibly brave. Won't go into details, but for me, it took immense courage to do that, overcoming alot of rather intense stuff to do that and even function. Whereas in 'normal' circumstances for people, it's not even thought of as being anything more than a trivial task.

Just pickles for nickels! Or food for.. thought..

May just be what we see bravery as, as a working definition *shrugs shoulders*. Different circumstances and context in which something is done to me denote what makes something brave.


----------



## granfire (Jul 14, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Frankly, that is hilariously over dramatic. You clearly did not 'hear' what CB Jones wrote. I would try to explain but I get the feeling it is pointless.


yikes. 
Somebody tinkle in your Wheaties?

I read what he wrote and I don't see it the same way. 
It is a matter of opinion. 
But thanks for playing.


----------



## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Wow. Did you not have a history class in grade school? Read a book. How/where you get the flag or patriotism as 'vague concepts' is offensive and an outright glaring indication of your ignorance. You think either construct is political? Dude. The Faulkland islands war was between Argentina and the United Kingdom.
> 
> Who said anything about all hero's dying 'bloody violent deaths'? Jumping to a rather irrational extreme aren't we? It is pretty clear what Kool-Aid you are drinking. Sad.


patriotism is a vague and somewhat variable concept that has been used for thousands of years to get mostly young and somewhat naive men to give up their life health or mental well being so that other can get richer or more powerful. im not saying dieing in defence of your country isnt an honourable thing, rather its not generally used for that purpose and even then people are sacrificed for expediency

if you want to see the real value of patriotism, you need to look at how these who have suffered harm or the dependent of those that died are treated when its all over ? generally pretty badly to be honest


----------



## Steve (Jul 15, 2020)

jobo said:


> if you want to see the real value of patriotism, you need to look at how these who have suffered harm or the dependent of those that died are treated when its all over ? generally pretty badly to be honest


I don't know how things are at this time in the UK, but we are at a time in our country when our president has yet to address bounties placed on our soldiers heads by a foreign country about 20 days after the news became public (much less when he was briefed about it in February), while simultaneously wrapping themselves in the flag and calling that patriotism, I appreciate your distinction between real patriotism and the lip service it often receives.  Another example is the awful language used by Fox news recently toward Tammy Duckworth, having the audacity to question her patriotism.  It's awful what's happening now.  FWIW, I'd characterize Tammy Duckworth as a hero, not for her purple heart, but for the support and advocacy she has given to vets, and disabled vets in particular.  The guy who pulled her out of the helicopter after it was hit is a hero, though.


----------



## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

Steve said:


> I don't know how things are at this time in the UK, but we are at a time in our country when our president has yet to address bounties placed on our soldiers heads by a foreign country about 20 days after the news became public (much less when he was briefed about it in February), while simultaneously wrapping themselves in the flag and calling that patriotism, I appreciate your distinction between real patriotism and the lip service it often receives.  Another example is the awful language used by Fox news recently toward Tammy Duckworth, having the audacity to question her patriotism.  It's awful what's happening now.





Steve said:


> I don't know how things are at this time in the UK, but we are at a time in our country when our president has yet to address bounties placed on our soldiers heads by a foreign country about 20 days after the news became public (much less when he was briefed about it in February), while simultaneously wrapping themselves in the flag and calling that patriotism, I appreciate your distinction between real patriotism and the lip service it often receives.  Another example is the awful language used by Fox news recently toward Tammy Duckworth, having the audacity to question her patriotism.  It's awful what's happening now.


im not really aware of tammy, she hasnt made much impression over here, i just read a quick bio on her

i watch american politics as entertainment, much as i watch world title fights, its interesting but doesn't really effect me, though its seem that some very unfortunate elements of it are being imported here

as an interested spectator rather than a participant , i see a society tearing its self apart, with both sides calling the other racists and or traitors or variations on such, having long abandoned any semblance of intellectual honesty

im judging that this is deliberate on both sides, as presenting no middle ground to the electorate is forcing them to choose a polarised position that only one side can address

the next election, no matter which way it goes will still leave a very damaged country

though tammy postion that statutes should be subject to discussion seems to please nobody much, so her long term future seems in doubt,, cant have people who are rational in power, where will that end up ?


----------



## Steve (Jul 15, 2020)

jobo said:


> im not really aware of tammy, she hasnt made much impression over here, i just read a quick bio on her
> 
> i watch american politics as entertainment, much as i watch world title fights, its interesting but doesn't really effect me, though its seem that some very unfortunate elements of it are being imported here
> 
> ...


Getting a little off track, but really the only knock against her within the democratic party is a perceived lack of polish.  I haven't heard any rational person voice concerns about her comments regarding the statues of Washington and others.  There have been a few pot shots taken to test the Fox news base's appetite for questioning a disabled veteran's patriotism, and it didn't go so well considering Tucker is on a sudden "vacation."  Based on what I've read, she's on the short list for possible VP picks for the Biden ticket.  Right now, I think it's her along with Kamala Harris, Susan Rice, Elizabeth Warren, Stacy Abrams, and the mayor of Atlanta (can't remember her name).  Of course, the process is always very secret, so who knows what will happen?


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 15, 2020)

granfire said:


> yikes.
> Somebody tinkle in your Wheaties?
> 
> I read what he wrote and I don't see it the same way.
> ...


Nope. I don't like Wheaties. Why is it okay for protesters/rioters to spit in the faces of people just trying to get something worse started but when someone with a different 'matter of opinion' speaks out it s seen as wrong? C'mon. 

There is still WAY, way, way more right in this country than wrong. I do think the the political tension is nearing a tipping point. I have never seen the pre-amble of an election year get so bad. However the virus got here, it is Way out of bounds for either side to use it as a tool for political gain. That is about all one side is doing. 

Having the ability of instant information is great, astounding. But when it is used for the wrong purpose (other than to purely inform) it is a tool deadlier than any bomb or missile out there.  

On one side you have a strong-willed, out spoken non-political leader who rubs a lot of people the wrong way because he does not really care if he 'hurts your feelings'. Political people just do not know how to deal with him. Put him in a room full of movers and shakers and he facilitates documented positive change over and over in every pertinent category. He is much more focused on the end results than getting there delicately.  
On the other side you have a fractured party who is backing an alzheimer compromised lifetime political puppet with little accomplishment to hang his hat on, knowing they can lead him around by his nose ring.
The waters between being a liberal and a leftist have become so muddied (by intention I believe) and they prey on mis-information and weak minded wills. 

I wish more/most people would get outside whatever their regular circle is to see life and reality from a fuller perspective.


----------



## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

Steve said:


> Getting a little off track, but really the only knock against her within the democratic party is a perceived lack of polish.  I haven't heard any rational person voice concerns about her comments regarding the statues of Washington and others.  There have been a few pot shots taken to test the Fox news base's appetite for questioning a disabled veteran's patriotism, and it didn't go so well considering Tucker is on a sudden "vacation."  Based on what I've read, she's on the short list for possible VP picks for the Biden ticket.  Right now, I think it's her along with Kamala Harris, Susan Rice, Elizabeth Warren, Stacy Abrams, and the mayor of Atlanta (can't remember her name).  Of course, the process is always very secret, so who knows what will happen?


lack of polish is code for off message, if the parties message is,,, that anyone one who disagrees is automatically a racist/traitors, then varying from that position by giving rational judgements is unlikely to play well with those who make such choices

imagine what will happen if she started doing that in the election campaign, truth is the first causality of war and elections


----------



## Steve (Jul 15, 2020)

jobo said:


> lack of polish is code for off message, if the parties message is,,, that anyone one who disagrees is automatically a racist/traitors, then varying from that position by giving rational judgements is unlikely to play well with those who make such choices
> 
> imagine what will happen if she started doing that in the election campaign, truth is the first causality of war and elections


In this case, lack of polish means she's not as polished a speaker as some of the other folks in consideration.  I don't think the message is what you think the message is.  Anyway, we'll move off politics and just see what happens.


----------



## Steve (Jul 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Nope. I don't like Wheaties. Why is it okay for protesters/rioters to spit in the faces of people just trying to get something worse started but when someone with a different 'matter of opinion' speaks out it s seen as wrong? C'mon.


Tear gas, batons, rubber bullets fired at point blank range into the faces of protesters...  come on.  





> There is still WAY, way, way more right in this country than wrong. I do think the the political tension is nearing a tipping point. I have never seen the pre-amble of an election year get so bad. However the virus got here, it is Way out of bounds for either side to use it as a tool for political gain. That is about all one side is doing.


Totally agree, and if the right wing would just stop politicizing it, we'd be in a completely different situation right now, looking more like Europe or China or New Zealand. But no, we can't have nice things in the USA and as a result, we are literally banned from travelling to Canada.

The rest of your silliness is, as i said in another thread, not surprising at all.  Just out of curiosity, are you a veteran?


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 15, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> You know, I'll make one attempt to dialogue with you and then I'm out.
> 
> I am aware of the facts of the Falklands conflict. Quite aware, know my history pretty well, spent some time in Argentina. I've even read some books, if you can believe that. I chose that as example because I thought it was least likely to trigger somebody. Clearly I was mistaken.
> 
> ...


Okay; can you be succinct and clearer in what you are saying for us lesser people? I read no other point in your post other than taking a poke. I countered in order, simple as that.

I will not put you on ignore or move on. Help us get to a middle ground where we understand each other better. I get that this is harder to do when having a conversation on a screen vs. in person. 

Here is my input; talking about the flag or patriotism are upper order constructs for me and most other people about their respective country I feel. Most of these people are not outspoken about it; largely because it is/was an implied concept that required no elaborate explanation. But in the las 20 years or so certain factions began a mission to change the perspective of the meaning of such words. The agenda has perpetuated and morphed into something much worse. Sadly, I fully believe the only remedy will come in the form of a large scale conflict. Now explain to me how that makes any sense at all and more so how is that not apparent?


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 15, 2020)

Steve said:


> Tear gas, batons, rubber bullets fired at point blank range into the faces of protesters...  come on.  Totally agree, and if the right wing would just stop politicizing it, we'd be in a completely different situation right now, looking more like Europe or China or New Zealand. But no, we can't have nice things in the USA and as a result, we are literally banned from travelling to Canada.
> 
> The rest of your silliness is, as i said in another thread, not surprising at all.  Just out of curiosity, are you a veteran?


You don't have nice things? You agree that the current travel bans have an element of politics to them? Now we are seeing some things eye to eye.


----------



## Chrisinmd (Jul 15, 2020)

jobo said:


> you really cant lock people up and then charge them rent, thats just silly



I actually worked as a corrections officer in a prison for a few years.  They actually do charge some of them rent to be in prison.  Some of the inmates got to leave the prison everyday and work jobs outside the prison and then come back everyday after work and go to there cells.  They had money withheld from their paycheck for "rent".


----------



## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Nope. I don't like Wheaties. Why is it okay for protesters/rioters to spit in the faces of people just trying to get something worse started but when someone with a different 'matter of opinion' speaks out it s seen as wrong? C'mon.
> 
> There is still WAY, way, way more right in this country than wrong. I do think the the political tension is nearing a tipping point. I have never seen the pre-amble of an election year get so bad. However the virus got here, it is Way out of bounds for either side to use it as a tool for political gain. That is about all one side is doing.
> 
> ...


 for once i totally agree with you, both sides are playing to the most extreme of their supporters, leaving people who have more nuanced views nowhere to go, but to the extremes of opinion

and bothsides are being deliberate and calculated in this as they believe it gives them the best chance of winning, but it come at significant social cost, as its sowing significant division and violence and hatred, that will take generations to recover from, if it happens at all


----------



## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

Chrisinmd said:


> I actually worked as a corrections officer in a prison for a few years.  They actually do charge some of them rent to be in prison.  Some of the inmates got to leave the prison everyday and work jobs outside the prison and then come back everyday after work and go to there cells.  They had money withheld from their paycheck for "rent".


well thats just awful


----------



## Steve (Jul 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> You don't have nice things? You agree that the current travel bans have an element of politics to them? Now we are seeing some things eye to eye.


Ever serve in the military?


----------



## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Okay; can you be succinct and clearer in what you are saying for us lesser people? I read no other point in your post other than taking a poke. I countered in order, simple as that.
> 
> I will not put you on ignore or move on. Help us get to a middle ground where we understand each other better. I get that this is harder to do when having a conversation on a screen vs. in person.
> 
> Here is my input; talking about the flag or patriotism are upper order constructs for me and most other people about their respective country I feel. Most of these people are not outspoken about it; largely because it is/was an implied concept that required no elaborate explanation. But in the las 20 years or so certain factions began a mission to change the perspective of the meaning of such words. The agenda has perpetuated and morphed into something much worse. Sadly, I fully believe the only remedy will come in the form of a large scale conflict. Now explain to me how that makes any sense at all and more so how is that not apparent?


patriotism have no place in an intellectual debate, unless you can clearly articulate what it is your patriotic about.

blindly supporting your country because its your country is the most non intellectual view point you can take


----------



## ShortBridge (Jul 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> ... I read no other point in your post other than taking a poke. I countered in order, simple as that...



My post had nothing to do with you. You were no where in my consciousness when I made it. I was responding to the original question, posed by the original poster.

Your response to me, however, was a personal attack. You insulted my intelligence and told me I had been drinking the kool-aide.

Not sure where middle ground is in that and I'm good walking away. I can see that you have your hands full arguing US politics (which the Falklands Islands was meant to avoid) with the rest of MT.


----------



## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> My post had nothing to do with you. You were no where in my consciousness when I made it. I was responding to the original question, posed by the original poster.
> 
> Your response to me, however, was a personal attack. You insulted my intelligence and told me I had been drinking the kool-aide.
> 
> Not sure where middle ground is in that and I'm good walking away. I can see that you have your hands full arguing US politics (which the Falklands Islands was meant to avoid) with the rest of MT.


 the Falkland islands are infact a good case in point.

the reason  the uk is so keen to hold onto them is it gives us a stake in the southern hemisphere, particularly Antarctica but also any oil fields that way out

however the government remove any security they had, which wasnt much, to save a few quid

when the Argentinian invasion was announce, it was treated by the population and the media as a joke, as most people seemed to think they were off the coast of Scotland and then when told of their actual location cared very little about some god forsaken out post that had more sheep and penguins than people


within a few days that bemusement turn to a sea of patriotic zeal as the loss of somewhere very few people knew existed was now grounds for military action


but as we had nether a navy or an air force capable of doing that we sent a few under armed ferry and some aging destroyers into battle and then despite being told not to park them there, the navy commander parked them up in the most stupid of places resulting in catastrophic loss of life

all that stupidity, neglect and carelessness did was to increase the patriotic fever in the country and still nobody ask why if they were that important was nobody guarding them in the first place


----------



## Steve (Jul 15, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> Not sure where middle ground is in that and I'm good walking away. I can see that you have your hands full* arguing US politics* (which the Falklands Islands was meant to avoid) with the rest of MT.


I'll take this as constructive criticism and avoid contributing to that any more.  Good point.


----------



## ShortBridge (Jul 15, 2020)

jobo said:


> the Falkland islands are infact a good case in point.
> 
> the reason  the uk is so keen to hold onto them is it gives us a stake in the southern hemisphere, particularly Antarctica but also any oil fields that way out
> 
> ...



Hmmm..It's almost as though I had _"a history class in grade school" _or _"Read a book". _Is it possible that I have enough awareness of world history to pull a fairly obscure 35-year-old example out of my *** to make a cogent point in 2020? Naw, it's "_pretty clear what Kool-Aid" _I'm drinking._ "Sad."_

It's obvious that my left-wing media bubble has been going on and on about the Faulkland Islands conflict recently and I'm just repeating their radical talking points. Well, at least that inevitable armed conflict will be along any minute to straighten me out.


----------



## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

edit


----------



## Steve (Jul 15, 2020)

This guy's a hero in my book.  

Michigan police officer saves choking baby


----------



## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

Steve said:


> This guy's a hero in my book.
> 
> Michigan police officer saves choking baby


not disagreeing, but how do you end up on the bbc web site for american news ?


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 15, 2020)

ShortBridge said:


> My post had nothing to do with you. You were no where in my consciousness when I made it. I was responding to the original question, posed by the original poster.
> 
> Your response to me, however, was a personal attack. You insulted my intelligence and told me I had been drinking the kool-aide.
> 
> Not sure where middle ground is in that and I'm good walking away. I can see that you have your hands full arguing US politics (which the Falklands Islands was meant to avoid) with the rest of MT.


Fair enough. 
The 'poke' was your general reference to patriotism. Not cool whatever country you live. 
The Kool-Aid is the leftist rhetoric you clearly buy in to. I replied in kind and you have gotten offended. Do you not understand you response was offensive to me? 
Clearly I do not get your Falkland Islands comparison, still don't .


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## dvcochran (Jul 15, 2020)

jobo said:


> patriotism have no place in an intellectual debate, unless you can clearly articulate what it is your patriotic about.
> 
> blindly supporting your country because its your country is the most non intellectual view point you can take


Yeah, that it typical Jobo rhetoric trying to suck someone into a useless conversation. Not doing it.


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## dvcochran (Jul 15, 2020)

Steve said:


> Ever serve in the military?


Nope. Would not take a broken neck. Why do you ask?


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## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Nope. Would not take a broken neck. Why do you ask?


is that some american collociquism s that similar to a red neck ?


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## dvcochran (Jul 15, 2020)

jobo said:


> and still nobody ask why if they were that important was nobody guarding them in the first place


Here's you sign. 
A nation, country, state, city, business, family, person must be diligent and pro-active, else crap this will just happen over and over.


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## dvcochran (Jul 15, 2020)

Steve said:


> This guy's a hero in my book.
> 
> Michigan police officer saves choking baby


He done a excellent job. The mother leaves something to be desired.


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## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> He done a excellent job. The mother leaves something to be desired.


that more than al ittle judgemential ,so what exactly y has the mother done wrong?


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## dvcochran (Jul 15, 2020)

Chrisinmd said:


> I actually worked as a corrections officer in a prison for a few years.  They actually do charge some of them rent to be in prison.  Some of the inmates got to leave the prison everyday and work jobs outside the prison and then come back everyday after work and go to there cells.  They had money withheld from their paycheck for "rent".


I do not have a problem with this. Apparently they had done something which required incarceration. In the guidelines of minimum/medium/major security I guess someone decided letting people out to worked fit the minimum profile. Getting reimbursed for room and board is only logical in this scenario. IMHO


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## dvcochran (Jul 15, 2020)

jobo said:


> is that some american collociquism s that similar to a red neck ?


Nope. When I went to have my physical the doctor caught it. I tried to slip through without saying anything but it did not work. 
Call me country or a red neck. I work outside enough to fit either. I have no problem with either. To be more precise I am a cattleman.
I am very, very proud of my heritage.


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## dvcochran (Jul 15, 2020)

jobo said:


> that more than al ittle judgemential ,so what exactly y has the mother done wrong?


There is something wrong with your child and all you do is freak out to the point of being no help at all? C'mon. I really had to explain that to you?


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## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

whatcas


dvcochran said:


> Nope. When I went to have my physical the doctor caught it. I tried to slip through without saying anything but it did not work.
> Call me country or a red neck. I work outside enough to fit ei





dvcochran said:


> There is something wrong with your child and all you do is freak out to the point of being no help at all? C'mon. I really had to explain that to you?


but the policeman didnt seem to need help, what assistence do you think she could have given had she been calmer?


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## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Nope. When I went to have my physical the doctor caught it. I tried to slip through without saying anything but it did not work.
> Call me country or a red neck. I work outside enough to fit either. I have no problem with either. To be more precise I am a cattleman.
> I am very, very proud of my heritage.


what part of your cattleman heritage are you proud of?

i have vague recolection of cattle men forcing inocent homesteader off their land, in fact they seemed to make a bad habbit of lynching them, hope its not that part, though i suspect it maybe


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## Buka (Jul 15, 2020)

Everybody....




 

Here, watch this and maybe smile. Or not.


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## ShortBridge (Jul 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> ...
> The Kool-Aid is the leftist rhetoric you clearly buy in to. ...



You are making assumptions about me that you have no basis for and at least some of them are inaccurate. I'm not going to explain or defend myself further from your personal judgements, because that's not why I'm engaged with people on this site and I doubt you would be open to the possibility that you were wrong about anything. 



dvcochran said:


> I replied in kind and you have gotten offended.



Yeah, a little bit. Your's was a very personal line of attack, where as what I wrote was not intended to be personal or about you in any way. It's okay if you don't agree with me, but you insulted me personally. I think it speaks more to your character than it says anything about me.



dvcochran said:


> Do you not understand you response was offensive to me?



Oh, I certainly do at this point and I am sorry about that (though I haven't seen and don't expect an apology from you for insulting me personally). I still stand behind my comments, whether you understand them or not.



dvcochran said:


> Clearly I do not get your Falkland Islands comparison, still don't .



Clearly not. It appears that Jobo does, though. I think he explained quite astutely why that was a reasonable  example. I'm sorry that you don't follow. Maybe he does because it was his country's conflict. Maybe I do because I'm not as uneducated as you decided to accuse me of being. The fact that you don't get it is not evidence of my lack of intelligence, though. 

That said, I was less trying to make a point about the Faulkland Islands as I was trying to pick a benign example of a military conflict from a different time and place involving two countries that are not my own in the hopes of avoiding the exact response that I got from you. In doing so, I ran the risk of offending a forum member who was either English or Argentine, but instead I deeply offended a police officer/rancher from the Southwest US. Really didn't see that coming, but here we are.

For the record, I didn't say "the US flag" or the "United States Patriotism" or "Trump" or Biden" or "right" or "left" or any of the stuff you brought into this. I had one simple point to make in response to the OPs original question: The term "hero" has already been used both appropriately and inappropriately a million times over for hundreds of years. It's not losing it's sanctity now if an ER nurse or a Safeway employee is referred to that way. Full stop.

I didn't even give my opinion about whether I thought they were heroes or not, because among other things, my opinion really isn't that important. I really wish you'd move on from me. It appears that you have enough other conflicts here that you could consider this one a draw.


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## Steve (Jul 15, 2020)

jobo said:


> not disagreeing, but how do you end up on the bbc web site for american news ?


I look at news from all over, BBC, the guardian, you name it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 15, 2020)

*THREAD LOCKED PENDING STAFF REVIEW
*
William Hollwedel
@Monkey Turned Wolf 
MartialTalk Moderator


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