# Rapper: Blacks 'cheered when 9-11 happened'



## Jay Bell (Oct 15, 2004)

Knight Ridder Newspapers
Oct. 14, 2004 03:08 PM 

If Osama bin Laden ever buys a rap album, he'll probably start with a CD by KRS-One.

The hip-hop anarchist has declared his solidarity with al-Qaida by asserting that he and other African-Americans "cheered when 9-11 happened," reports the New York Daily News.

The rapper, real name Kris Parker, defiled the memory of those who died in the terrorist attacks as he spouted off at a recent New Yorker Festival panel discussion. advertisement  

"I say that proudly," the Boogie Down Productions founder went on, insisting that, before the attack, security guards kept Blacks out of the World Trade Center "because of the way we talk and dress.

"So when the planes hit the building, we were like, 'Mmmm - justice.' "

The atrocity of 9-11 "doesn't affect us the hip-hop community," he said. "9-11 happened to them, not us," he added, explaining that by "them" he meant "the rich ... those who are oppressing us. RCA or BMG, Universal, the radio stations."

Parker also sneered at efforts by other rappers to get young people to vote.

"Voting in a corrupt society adds more corruption," he added. "America has to commit suicide if the world is to be a better place."


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 15, 2004)

I've got $5 to add to the pot so he can go do a concert in Syria, or Somalia.  Moron.


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## Ronald R. Harbers (Oct 15, 2004)

I've got $10!


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## Bammx2 (Oct 15, 2004)

Heck....

I'll spring for the greyhound tickets so the can get there!


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## Xequat (Oct 15, 2004)

You know, it's one thing to get publicity by showing a boob at the halftime show or something, but this is just wrong.  Sad thing is, my sister teaches at an inner city school in Cincinnati (it's pretty bad) and she said that when the planes hit the WTC, some of the kids started laughing and thought it was cool.  Of course, she got upset and tried to explain the situation to them, but I guess they just didn't get it.


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## Sapper6 (Oct 15, 2004)

> I say that proudly," the Boogie Down Productions founder went on, insisting that, before the attack, security guards kept Blacks out of the World Trade Center "because of the way we talk and dress.



i guess im wondering why else would the security guards let these gang-banging, foul-mouthed thugs inside...?  i doubt they would have made it through the metal detectors anyway :idunno: 

theres always the chance that their crack selling business got slow in "the hood" so they went to the WTC to talk to some financial "brothers" about helping get their business off the ground :idunno: 

in the eyes of these idiots, i guess they feel a couple thousand deaths are an even trade for what they call "discrimination".  give me a break


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## Flatlander (Oct 15, 2004)

The sick irony is, if Mr. KRS-One believes that an Al Qaida operative wouldn't blow him to smithereens in order to complete an objective, he's an idiot.  I'm reasonably certain that Al-Qaida isn't terribly sympathetic to the "hip-hop" cause.

Anything for exposure, I guess.


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## Sapper6 (Oct 15, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Anything for exposure, I guess.



and to sell a few more albums i guess.  we all know even the most negative exposure sells.  it's all about money.


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## loki09789 (Oct 15, 2004)

Xequat said:
			
		

> You know, it's one thing to get publicity by showing a boob at the halftime show or something, but this is just wrong. Sad thing is, my sister teaches at an inner city school in Cincinnati (it's pretty bad) and she said that when the planes hit the WTC, some of the kids started laughing and thought it was cool. Of course, she got upset and tried to explain the situation to them, but I guess they just didn't get it.


Not just an inner city issue, it is a developmental issue. During the teen years the egocentrism element of growing up can come off as 'so what' or 'cool' about another person's pain or condition. That is why teachers/adults need to teach and stress the social perspective on issues like 9/11. Simple questions like "What if it was you in there?" or "what if that was your - fill in with friend/family as appropriate?" Even if they act tough to save face/ego in front of their peers, the question sticks more often than it seems.

Of course, having 'role models' that someone wants to identify with simply because they are 'of my kind' in the mind of the kid that is cheering this kind of thing can take that kid right back to the stone ages of personal development...

KRS doesn't seem to realize that he may have cheered because it happened to 'them' but his business will be taxed, his tour travel will be more expensive and his personal life style and musical message are not 'cheered' by those who did it.  He would be lined up and shot just as quickly as the corporate suit because we are all infidels and sinners in the eyes of religious fanatics...I doubt that the Baptist/Pentacostal Christians that are 'his type' approve of him very much either.


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## loki09789 (Oct 15, 2004)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> and to sell a few more albums i guess. we all know even the most negative exposure sells. it's all about money.


Which, ironically is exactly the unsympathetic, use and abuse people mentallity that rappers like KRS accuse the 'corporate white America' of having. AND the very mentallity that he will gladly spin into lyrics and sell records as he perpetuates his own brand of fundametal hate.

Yet another case of how being a 'master artist' doesn't automatically equate to a more 'evolved human being.'


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## TonyM. (Oct 15, 2004)

He'll need the money to repair his jaw when I get hold of him.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 15, 2004)

Xequat said:
			
		

> You know, it's one thing to get publicity by showing a boob at the halftime show or something, but this is just wrong.  Sad thing is, my sister teaches at an inner city school in Cincinnati (it's pretty bad) and she said that when the planes hit the WTC, some of the kids started laughing and thought it was cool.  Of course, she got upset and tried to explain the situation to them, but I guess they just didn't get it.



Kids see horrific things in the movies and on TV all of the time.  When the real thing happens, many can't tell the difference.


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## Tkang_TKD (Oct 15, 2004)

I wonder if this guy could get charged under the patriot act, considering he appears to be condoning and advocating terrorist attacks....

Then again I guess there is still free speech, even though I disagree with the message


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## DavidCC (Oct 15, 2004)

I've been a fan of KRS-One for many years and I am stunned that he would say these things!

He's not a gun-carrying crack-dealing thug at all.  He has always been one of the most thoughtful and most positive role models in the hip-hop genre.  I don't believe he does anything "just to sell records".  Sadly I think he might really belive this junk  but some of you  are showing your own stereotypical prejudices by some of the things you are saying.  Mostly Sapper :snipe: LOL

I think though one thing that should be discussed is, how did he get to this point.  if you think this is contrived to sell records, then that assumes that there is a large population of record-buyers who believe the same way.  So why do those people beleive like they do?  They aren't trying to sell records or get exposure.  These americans (who you assume exist to be pandered to by this kind of message) believe that American is not the "golden wonder hero" that most on the 'right' think it is.  You can't deny America (and American companies) have screwed many people around the world.  I'm not saying it is so evil as many ont eh left try to make it out either!  But the fact of the matter is, there are many people in the world, inside the US and out, who might have very justifiable hatred fear or resentment of the USA.  This doesn't justify terrorism.  This doesn't justify terrorism.

So how do you react when you encounter somebody who expresses that sentiment?  I admit, KRS-One is out of line.  But his resentment of big corporate / government greed and oppression and destruction of lives can be justified, and is a fact of life for a lot of people around the world for the last 100 years or more.  So to just dismiss the beliefs and attitutdes of millions of people, many American Citizens, is to live with your head in the sand.

to you Liberals - not everyone in the world hates us.  The USA is not Evil. We are going to have enemies, but it doesn't mean we are bad.

to you conservatives - some people do hate the USA, and many for good reason.  Maybe you should try to figure out why.


Yeah bust him in the jaw, that will teach him that Americans are good people! :iws:


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 15, 2004)

So why is this worse than Pat Robertson and that other religious nutcase getting on the CBN and announcing, gloating the whole time, that 9/11 was the fault of liberals, humanists, the ACLU, lesbians, and the rest of the ungodly in America?


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## Jay Bell (Oct 15, 2004)

> So why is this worse than Pat Robertson and that other religious nutcase getting on the CBN and announcing, gloating the whole time, that 9/11 was the fault of liberals, humanists, the ACLU, lesbians, and the rest of the ungodly in America?



I'm not so sure it is


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## Flatlander (Oct 15, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> So why is this worse than Pat Robertson and that other religious nutcase getting on the CBN and announcing, gloating the whole time, that 9/11 was the fault of liberals, humanists, the ACLU, lesbians, and the rest of the ungodly in America?


Come on, Robert.  We can 'cause they did?


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## Brother John (Oct 15, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> So why is this worse than Pat Robertson and that other religious nutcase getting on the CBN and announcing, gloating the whole time, that 9/11 was the fault of liberals, humanists, the ACLU, lesbians, and the rest of the ungodly in America?


I don't recall anyone here saying that THAT was okay either.
So I don't see how your point relates.

Your Brother 
John


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## Sapper6 (Oct 15, 2004)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> I've been a fan of KRS-One for many years and I am stunned that he would say these things!
> 
> He's not a gun-carrying crack-dealing thug at all.  He has always been one of the most thoughtful and most positive role models in the hip-hop genre.  I don't believe he does anything "just to sell records".  Sadly I think he might really belive this junk  but some of you  are showing your own stereotypical prejudices by some of the things you are saying.  Mostly Sapper :snipe: LOL
> 
> ...



i have no sypathy for anyone, white or black, that is going to say, "they wont let us black folk in because of the way we talk or dress".  give me break man.  if they had any legitimate business there, im quite sure they would have been allowed entrance into the WTC.  so for this guy to say, "thats what you get for discriminating against me", and condoning the attacks and murder of U.S. citizens, sorry man, thats just wrong!

if it's not for the money, why else would he come out to make these statements?  regardless if you or anyone else feels the same way he does, its EXPOSURE.  its simple business marketing:  EXPOSURE SELLS PRODUCT.

i could care less if he's black, white, red, yellow, blue or whatever else color.  what he says is blatantly un-American.

@ Robert

im not sure, im not a big CBN fan myself.  OMG, we see eye-to-eye on something...?  say it aint so :asian:


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## loki09789 (Oct 15, 2004)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> I've been a fan of KRS-One for many years and I am stunned that he would say these things!
> 
> He's not a gun-carrying crack-dealing thug at all. He has always been one of the most thoughtful and most positive role models in the hip-hop genre. I don't believe he does anything "just to sell records". Sadly I think he might really belive this junk  but some of you are showing your own stereotypical prejudices by some of the things you are saying. Mostly Sapper :snipe: LOL


Not able to speak for anyone else but my point is that if he is truly this 'thoughtful' then why is it that he can't recognize that this 'us and them' mentallity is just a reactionary 'hate the hater' type of attitude that turns you into the very thing that jaded him/her/'them'

Local example.  The kids had a pep rally and suffered vandalism from a rival school.  The students, at a meeting of the class officers called by the Principal took the initiative to volunteer time and class funds toward the repair of the community and private property that had been defaced as a "demonstration of our character." (their words)  They COULD have chosen to simply retaliate with counter vandalism, witch hunt/lynch mob mentallity searching for the vandals and used the legal process with the motive of 'hate' and revenge, but they made the mature choice to take the high road.  I am very glad of that.

KRS may be a positive role model "within the rap music community" but IMO, that really isn't a high bar to get over in the current day.  He has not chosen to take the high road and live up to an ideal so much as simply say "fair for them, fair for me."  And this is not IMO any 'worse' than any other celebration or 'you deserved it' mentallity expressions from anyone else out there.  THe victims of 9/11 (meaning the surviving families and the dead) didn't 'deserve it' any more than you or I do.  Even waxing Biblical, there is the idea that you shouldn't look at the path of a catastrophe and assume that you were spared because you are 'holier' than the victims and that they 'deserved' it (I think it is in one of the Paul Letters).

Early on, when it was more closely linked to Beat poetry, free verse instead of "kill da Man" Rap was more respected as an art formand authentic as an art form....now, it definitely ain't that.


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## michaeledward (Oct 15, 2004)

Tkang_TKD said:
			
		

> Then again I guess there is still free speech, even though I disagree with the message


The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is only required when you disagree with the message.

And, as Robert said, we all know this happened because of the gays, lesbians, and Massachusetts judges.


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## PeachMonkey (Oct 15, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Early on, when it was more closely linked to Beat poetry, free verse instead of "kill da Man" Rap was more respected as an art formand authentic as an art form....now, it definitely ain't that.



All commentary on KRS-One's statements aside, I think it's best not to claim to understand hip-hop if you don't.

You probably don't mean it to come off this way, but attempting to link rap to Beat poetry is a particularly ethnocentric way to try and claim credit for its origins.  Hip-hop has its roots far deeper in dancehall Reggae and jazz.

The so-called "kill da Man" rap is also usually misunderstood, and is primarily a commercial form of hip-hop that appeals as widely to suburban white kids as it does to anyone else.  It's only one small subgenre of the art-form as a whole.


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## Tkang_TKD (Oct 15, 2004)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is only required when you disagree with the message.


Of course   That keeps those of us that disagree from opressing the views 




> And, as Robert said, we all know this happened because of the gays, lesbians, and Massachusetts judges.


Ironically enough, I was more offended by that statement when Pat Roberts (Or who ever...I'm not a religious man) made it. 

What I truly find ironic (and forgive me for my stereotyping here...), is that the very decadence (i.e. mo money, bling bling, etc...) of the rap lifestyle seems to be what is amongst those things that make us as a nation hated.  I could be wrong though... :idunno:


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## DavidCC (Oct 15, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Not able to speak for anyone else but my point is that if he is truly this 'thoughtful' then why is it that he can't recognize that this 'us and them' mentallity is just a reactionary 'hate the hater' type of attitude that turns you into the very thing that jaded him/her/'them'


Well, that's why I said I was stunned...



> KRS may be a positive role model "within the rap music community" but IMO, that really isn't a high bar to get over in the current day. He has not chosen to take the high road and live up to an ideal so much as simply say "fair for them, fair for me."


a positive role model is a positive role model.  I'm not sure what you are implying.  Oh wait, yes I am - people who listen to hip-hop are of low character.  that's your prejudice.

+++++++



> i have no sypathy for anyone, white or black, that is going to say, "they wont let us black folk in because of the way we talk or dress". give me break man. if they had any legitimate business there, im quite sure they would have been allowed entrance into the WTC. so for this guy to say, "thats what you get for discriminating against me", and condoning the attacks and murder of U.S. citizens, sorry man, thats just wrong!
> 
> if it's not for the money, why else would he come out to make these statements? regardless if you or anyone else feels the same way he does, its EXPOSURE. its simple business marketing: EXPOSURE SELLS PRODUCT.
> 
> i could care less if he's black, white, red, yellow, blue or whatever else color. what he says is blatantly un-American.


Well, I never said anyone should have sympathy for him. I didn;t say what he said was not wrong.

We know you think it was apublicity stunt to get exposure,.  You said that in your previuos post.  Why are you asking me why he said it.  I already told you why I think he said it.  So stop asking me the same question that I already answered.  Respond to my point:  if this is just a tactic to sell records, who are the people that respond to it, and why do THEY think that way?  Forget aobut KRS -  who is he (supposedly) pandering to, if that is in fact what he is doing (which I don't agree he is but for the sake of argument...)


See here's a typical internet argument tactic in play again:  "repeat your position as many times as necessary.  Ignore any other points."  Don't be that guy , Sapper, nobody likes that guy.


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## Sapper6 (Oct 15, 2004)

ok david, however you see it.  i dont give a rat's *** why he made the statement.  i could care less if he was a hip-hop artist or a damn Yanni wannabe.   

get off your racial soapbox and stop claiming racial and stereotypical indifference.  nobody gives a damn.  he made very un-American remarks condoning an attack on the country in which you live.  it's amazing just seeing you defend the slimeball dirtbag, buy hey, like you said, you're a big fan  

nobody here was implying that hip-hop fans are of lower human equality, like you accused of loki of doing.  

as far as me repeating statement over and again, and avoiding other points:

are there other points i should take into consideration...?  LOL

i'd feel the exact same way if it were someone like say, Billy Joel, if he were to make those comments.  make you feel better...?  

you keep saying WE are racists with prejudice...?  your boy KRS brought it up in his reasoning why we made those statements, not us.

get over it.  its not about race, prejudice, human equality, or anything related to such nonsense.  it's about a popular so-called "role-model" musician saying it's OK to kill a couple thousand innocent Americans because "they didnt let us in the building because the way we dress and talk."

go enjoy your KRS cds :asian:

EDIT:



> See here's a typical internet argument tactic in play again: "repeat your position as many times as necessary. Ignore any other points." Don't be that guy , Sapper, nobody likes that guy.



thanks for the heads-up.  im not here to be liked, im not that insecure :ultracool


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## Sapper6 (Oct 15, 2004)

Quote from KRS:



> "Voting in a corrupt society adds more corruption," he added. "America has to commit suicide if the world is to be a better place."



hey, he is a damn good role model isnt he david


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## Nightingale (Oct 15, 2004)

MT MOD NOTE:

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful...

Cool off, everyone.

-Nightingale-
MT MODERATOR


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## Sapper6 (Oct 15, 2004)

as always :asian:


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## MA-Caver (Oct 15, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> Knight Ridder Newspapers
> Oct. 14, 2004 03:08 PM
> 
> If Osama bin Laden ever buys a rap album, he'll probably start with a CD by KRS-One.
> ...


Part of me is saying this isn't surprising but I'm still disappointed to no end. 
I work at a furniture store and in the warehouse there are a bunch of young guys who listen to rap/hip-hop basically all day. I try studiously to avoid it because (personally), I think it's a waste of black singing talent... wait.. they don't even sing at all... anyway listening (or trying NOT to), all I hear is a bunch of cussing and angry rhetoric about how bad things are. 
Some of those guys tried to get me to "listen to what they're saying" but I canna understand any of it except for the mutha-f---er every other sentence. 
Either way, whatever this guys' motive (jeez can't they use their real names??) whether to make "a statement" or to make money or whatever.. he's not promoting good values at all. 
There were just as many blacks that died that horrible day as whites. Makes me want to ask him.. "and your point?"  Justice he says... justice on what?? White oppression? Geez, we have a black 5 star general, we got more black millionares than ever before, we got black professors teaching at Harvard and other ivy leauges... what justice... damn, you don't have enough? 
Sigh... pure ignorance makes people say things like what that guy said.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 15, 2004)

Careful, I said the same thing a while back and got called a racist for it.


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## Sapper6 (Oct 15, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Careful, I said the same thing a while back and got called a racist for it.



i certainly understand your point.  i wonder who's _more_ racist these days, blacks or whites.  you've gotta think that when "prominent" black folks like KRS make silly statements like that, it makes you wonder if they are the only ones still harboring ill feelings toward the whole issue.  they just wont let the topic die, but that's definately a topic i wont touch :asian:


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## Darksoul (Oct 15, 2004)

-I think someone else posted somewhere that a big problem with the youth in the U.S., as far as rap/hip-hop music is concerned, is that the exposure of that music is limited to what is heard or seen on popular radio stations and t.v. channels like MTV, BET, etc. What makes this music so appealing, besides the fact that the youth may listen to nothing else? There exists more than one reason. They see a lifestyle that is glamorized by the media and the stars of today, a lifestyle that they don't have, but want very badly. Most people hate not having something they want, to the point that they will do something to get it. That could be a good thing, or it could be a bad thing.

-Is there some more basic cause, some underlying human characteristic that could be to blame? I think the one word that could sum it all up is competition. Humans love to be better than everyone else. We want to have what others do not, or cannot have...sorry, got distracted by chinese food...I'll be back.

A---)


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## Bammx2 (Oct 15, 2004)

somebody obviously doesn't like greyhound:shrug:


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## Tgace (Oct 15, 2004)

Movies, TV and video games take the brunt of the blame when it comes to violence in our society.

Somehow rap/hip-hop culture doesn't have as much of that stigma stick to it. Strange.....


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## PeachMonkey (Oct 15, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Somehow rap/hip-hop culture doesn't have as much of that stigma stick to it. Strange.....



I'm genuinely curious about how you came up with this notion.  Rap and hip-hop culture are blamed for ALL KINDS of things, from violence against women to the war on drugs to gang violence disrespect for our elders to...


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## Tgace (Oct 15, 2004)

Im not really referring to the media. Just that in many studies/books Ive read (like Grossmans "On Killing") movies and video games (visual media in general) seem to be a popular tool to explain "violence programming" these days. Music dosent seem to have had as much clinical acceptance as such....yes parents and groups have been complaining about music lyrics for a while now, it just dosent seem to catch as much acceptance.


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## rmcrobertson (Oct 15, 2004)

Geez louise, I love capitalism. Ever' damn thing's for sale--race, hip-hop, criticism, the so-called revolution.

And I love patriarchy--watching guys slap dicks over mere politics.

Und so weiter, let's hear it for blaming rappers for all the problems of our society. Me, I was raised on Tennessee Ernie Ford, country & western...drinking, fightin' violence, anger, and D-I-V-O-R-C-E wall to wall.

But hey, drop kick me Jesus through the goalposts of life. My achy-breaky heart can't stand it. Bring me whisky for my men, beer for my horses.


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## PeachMonkey (Oct 15, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Im not really referring to the media. Just that in many studies/books Ive read (like Grossmans "On Killing") movies and video games (visual media in general) seem to be a popular tool to explain "violence programming" these days.



Grossman's book, as I'm sure you realize, was about a particular thesis... and though I don't fully agree with it, I think there's a much closer, demonstrable relationship between many types of violent video games and classic techniques for breaking down willingness to kill and do harm than there is between music and violence.


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## Darksoul (Oct 16, 2004)

-Or ya know, the total lack of education concerning whats right and wrong, good and bad behavior. Blame video games, music videos, violent movies...well, I think there is a formula here. Good parenting plus growing kids equal good citizens. (Yes, I realize thats really general.) There are a lot more variables that will show up on a case by case basis. Take good parenting out of the equation, and add violent games, movies, music, etc, plus growing kids which equals ??? With a country so bent on being unified and diversified, its no wonder there really doesn't exist standards in terms of values and morals anymore. Though I could be babbling...

A---)


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## Brother John (Oct 16, 2004)

I've worked as a correctional officer in residential settings with adjudicated (convicted) youth for a little over 11 years now. I've been a counselor for same as well. I've cared on a daily basis for thousands of youth who were habitual criminals for some time...
PARENTS!!!
Does MTv have a role to play? Sure. They promote the gang culture, I should say that they promote and 'market' it. It pervades the youth culture. If they aren't into "rap"...then its Metal or death metal as some call it... in which death and the chaotic are pushed forward...or again; marketed.
These are "Negative influences", but they don't have one iota the amount of impact that the parents have!!!!!!!!!!! 

When I was an 'intake officer' I'd recieve the youth fresh from the streets where they had just commited and been caught in a crime. I'd get them right from the hands of the arresting officer and question them. (Remember Hawaii five O', "Book'm Dano"....I was Dano to these boys) Anyway, I'd get out the file on a particular youth and find that it would be so huge that multiple files were needed to contain their rap-sheet and info...I'd hear their sorry stories and excuses and I'd think "Damn kid, you're messing up HARD. What gives." Then I'd call the parents/guardians and I'd find out 'what gives'. I'd meet the 'folks' and they'd be every bit as bad as the kid...if not worse. Then I'd think..."Kid, you may have done the best you could with what you were given". I recall one time when a mother of five came in for the 'immediate family counseling' that I offered through our office for the families of the youth that came through our dept.  She was angry at me (the system) for harrassing her son for having "Only stabbed the other boy once." Besides, she reasoned, the other boy had disrespected her son's 'Set'. ((gang sub-group)) So he obviously deserved what he got!!
OH..and the stabbing wasn't just some little 'pencil poke', and it wasn't just once but seven times...and it had been done with a hot soldering iron!
Nice kid.

Sorry to preach here, but there are LOTS of contributers to the wayward direction of a good portion of the young population. LOTS. 
MTV, the 60s/70s drug culture, Gangs, a government/school districts and police deptartments/judges who underestimate the severity of the need and fool themselves completely as to what should be done!!!!!!!!!
LOTS:
But the single BIGGES determinant of "will child "A" be a criminal" is THE PARENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hands down!

((I could go on, but I'm starting to get worked up here))
Your Brother (and theirs)
John


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## Brother John (Oct 16, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> I'm genuinely curious about how you came up with this notion.  Rap and hip-hop culture are blamed for ALL KINDS of things, from violence against women to the war on drugs to gang violence disrespect for our elders to...


Yes, and it's fully EARNED a great deal of that blame.
It's a matter of 
"If the shoe fits..."
NOT all rap or hip-hop. There are a ton of very good rappers and hip-hop artists that deserve credit for doing the opposite of what the 'others' do. It just so happens that a good portion of the most popular artists DO deserve the credit for the problem.
Gang crap sells right now.
Violence sells.
Drugs & sex sells and sells. (in any market, every bit as much as rap/hip-hop)
Hate sells.
Period

Your Brother
John


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## michaeledward (Oct 16, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Geez louise, I love capitalism. Ever' damn thing's for sale--race, hip-hop, criticism, the so-called revolution.
> 
> And I love patriarchy--watching guys slap dicks over mere politics.
> 
> ...


Robert, I love this .... you have to be careful, though, when you choose to identify youself with such, shall we say, common cultural references. Some of us may actually understand what you are talking about. It's always more fun when you send us to the woodshed of 'Google'.


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## loki09789 (Oct 16, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> All commentary on KRS-One's statements aside, I think it's best not to claim to understand hip-hop if you don't.
> 
> You probably don't mean it to come off this way, but attempting to link rap to Beat poetry is a particularly ethnocentric way to try and claim credit for its origins. Hip-hop has its roots far deeper in dancehall Reggae and jazz.
> 
> The so-called "kill da Man" rap is also usually misunderstood, and is primarily a commercial form of hip-hop that appeals as widely to suburban white kids as it does to anyone else. It's only one small subgenre of the art-form as a whole.


Wasn't claiming that it was THE origin, but it was ONE of the influences considering that both Rap and Beat poetry shared a geographical/community location (cities) of origin.  I don't claim to understand hip hop as much as understand that it is a valid art form that has artistic practitioners and 'corporate practitioners' and everyone in between just like any other entertainment/art form will.


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## loki09789 (Oct 16, 2004)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> Well, that's why I said I was stunned...
> 
> 
> a positive role model is a positive role model. I'm not sure what you are implying. Oh wait, yes I am - people who listen to hip-hop are of low character. that's your prejudice.
> ...


No that is your prejudice and insecurity talking.  I am saying quite clearly now that within the CURRENT hip hop/RAP entertainment community the idea that standing out as a positive role model isn't that hard given that:

Guys like ICE T show up on HBO documentary specials as an admitted PIMP who keeps/kept a stable of prostitutes even after he had money enough/fame enough not to have to do that out of money desparation.

Guys like TUPAC become 'fallen heroes' within the RAP community when they - and those who shot them - were embroiled in a EAST WEST rap/drug/gang reputation war

Guys like Snoop are STILL openly using illegal substances as 'soft' as Marijuana and harder as well.

NO ONE in entertainment that has a clear record of this type of behavior should be used as a role model for anyone else.

MY POINT was that KRS didn't have to do much compared to these types of more common Rap figures to stand out as a 'positive Role MODEL.'

Mos Def and Russel Simmons would be more credible IMO as hip hop positive role models.


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## raedyn (Oct 17, 2004)

Darksoul said:
			
		

> -Or ya know, the total lack of education concerning whats right and wrong, good and bad behavior. Blame video games, music videos, violent movies...well, I think there is a formula here. Good parenting plus growing kids equal good citizens. (Yes, I realize thats really general.) There are a lot more variables that will show up on a case by case basis. Take good parenting out of the equation, and add violent games, movies, music, etc, plus growing kids which equals ???


Good parenting is vital, yes. But other influences can undo some of what good parenting has done. Schooling, peers, TV do have an impact. You need good teachers, too. Maybe part of good parenting is saying 'No' and filtering some of those other influences out? Turn off the TV, monitor internet usage, critically discuss music lyrics, that sort of thing....

(I don't think I'm particularly coherent this evening, but yr all intelligent folks, so you'll figure it out)


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## auxprix (Oct 17, 2004)

Xequat said:
			
		

> You know, it's one thing to get publicity by showing a boob at the halftime show or something, but this is just wrong. Sad thing is, my sister teaches at an inner city school in Cincinnati (it's pretty bad) and she said that when the planes hit the WTC, some of the kids started laughing and thought it was cool. Of course, she got upset and tried to explain the situation to them, but I guess they just didn't get it.


One of my Japanese host brothers tells me that he thinks it's cool too. If I knew somebody who died in the tragedy, I would've probably slapped him on the back of the head.  It took all my strength not to tell him it would be like calling the Hiroshima blast 'cool'. Maybe I should have, though.


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## GAB (Oct 17, 2004)

Hi Brother John,

When you say Parents, I get a feeling you are talking....Genes. Is that a fair statement? Is Biologial very important? The State seems to think so, I think so. 
Why? Because the children are turned back to the biological parent. (It is your problem good or bad). 
More parents are being put into jail for the trouble the children are causing as far as crime is concerned. Is that fair? Yes and No... 
I think 16 is a fair time to treat them as adults, some even earlier... 
Enviromental is very important also, peer pressure, the saying, 'you can take the person out of the neighborhood but you can not take the neighborhood out of the person',.

Some don't stand a chance at leading a normal upstanding small town life of, 'do unto others' etc....I think peer presure in todays youth is a terrible burden...Do unto others before, they do you... is more like it. 

How about the statement, 'that it takes the whole neighborhood to raise a child'. I see that as good and bad in todays living standards.

I believe a person working in a criminal enviroment has a hard time looking at the real side of life. Don't you get tired of seeing/working with all the people who are now and had been nothing but a problem. 

Recidivist's are a major problem in our society.

I think that a small percentage of problem people, are affecting a large percent of the population. Victims have been the result, on one side or the other.

I believe our society has got to change its approach, or our society will be changed by other forces. Where do we start???

When sitting at a traffic signal and there are twenty cars. One has a blaring stereo, with filth pouring out of it, do those others enjoy it? Feel good about it? Or are they bothered by it???

They are affected one way or another. And, NO... we all can not just get along.
Regards, Gary


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## GAB (Oct 17, 2004)

auxprix said:
			
		

> One of my Japanese host brothers tells me that he thinks it's cool too. If I knew somebody who died in the tragedy, I would've probably slapped him on the back of the head. It took all my strength not to tell him it would be like calling the Hiroshima blast 'cool'. Maybe I should have, though.


I think at the time of the Bombing of the Japanese people we thought it was the right thing. I am sure there were a lot of people who were cheering that incident.

Unfortunatly, or fortunatly, we are able to express ourselves in THe USA.
But when it is criminal in nature we should not turn the other cheek.
We have much leeway before it is criminal, so when it is criminal the leeway should end.

To hit someone for there remarks, is the criminal part, not the statement.

Regards, Gary


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## loki09789 (Oct 18, 2004)

raedyn said:
			
		

> Good parenting is vital, yes. But other influences can undo some of what good parenting has done. Schooling, peers, TV do have an impact. You need good teachers, too. Maybe part of good parenting is saying 'No' and filtering some of those other influences out? Turn off the TV, monitor internet usage, critically discuss music lyrics, that sort of thing....
> 
> (I don't think I'm particularly coherent this evening, but yr all intelligent folks, so you'll figure it out)


Exposure to 'role models' (not chosen but just happen to be the people you live around) is the biggy.  If you are a decent person, working hard but are also a single parent in a poor/high crime (or even rich/high crime) area and your child is spending more time on his/her own because your working and don't have a solid support network, the child will learn vicariously about life from those 'other examples' whether you like it or not....


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## GAB (Oct 18, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Exposure to 'role models' (not chosen but just happen to be the people you live around) is the biggy. If you are a decent person, working hard but are also a single parent in a poor/high crime (or even rich/high crime) area and your child is spending more time on his/her own because your working and don't have a solid support network, the child will learn vicariously about life from those 'other examples' whether you like it or not....


 
I agree to this very much.

Regards, Gary


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## Tgace (Oct 18, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Exposure to 'role models' (not chosen but just happen to be the people you live around) is the biggy. If you are a decent person, working hard but are also a single parent in a poor/high crime (or even rich/high crime) area and your child is spending more time on his/her own because your working and don't have a solid support network, the child will learn vicariously about life from those 'other examples' whether you like it or not....


Excellent point. I recently arrested a young man with drugs on him that were obviously packaged for sale. When we were looking for him I spoke to his parents. They were decent people who ultimately turned their own son in to the police. This seems to be the exact problem. Kid was an A student, no trouble to speak of, involved parents but both are working so often that the kid was "hanging" with some bad people. Of course the entire area of the city he came from is very "rough" to begin with....


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## Brother John (Oct 18, 2004)

> When you say Parents, I get a feeling you are talking....Genes.


While it's true that the gene-pool needs more chlorine and the long net run through it and it wouldn't hurt to have fewer family trees that resemble palm trees... no, I wasn't really talking about genetics. Stupidity may have a strong genetic link, but no...
I was talking about SCUM spawning kids and then forgetting that the event should change/augment your entire life and world view or at very least they should work to care for and protect that child. NOT have the child be at the mercy of their addictions/habits/lusts/selfishness   ....etc etc.


> I think 16 is a fair time to treat them as adults, some even earlier...


Why? For what offenses?? Not that I 100% disagree, but it needs to be based on the severity of the crime and the rate of recitivisim for that individual. It's got to be tailored to the individual, the situation and their history. Adjudicating youth with adult statutes is applicable, but it's not the panacea that some seem to think. It wouldn't go very far toward cutting down crime...but it'd keep a few habitual/unremorseful criminals off the street...and that...only for a time. It's not like the adult correctional side of things is run any better than the juvenile. Same stuff...different keys.


> Some don't stand a chance at leading a normal upstanding small town life of, 'do unto others' etc....I think peer presure in todays youth is a terrible burden...Do unto others before, they do you... is more like it.


I'll never say that some don't stand a chance. The day I believe that anyone 'has no chance' is the day I quit this field. I MUST believe that there is a chance...however remote, and then I AIM that youth toward that small target. I WILL easily say though that there are many for whom the deck is severely stacked against them and the target is small small small. Like one of my favorite supervisors once said to me..."John, you can't save'm all. Some we can only hope that they grow up to be model inmates."
Sad thought.
I AM my brother's keeper.
Peer presure is a tremendously aweful thing for todays youth. It's increadible. BUT: by no means is it alone. Just like you can't only blame video games and mtv...but they do play a part; peer presure does take it's toll. But it's only one part of a very negative whole. 


> How about the statement, 'that it takes the whole neighborhood to raise a child'. I see that as good and bad in todays living standards


That quote stinks and came from the bowls of HELL!!!!
It's got a seed of truth, sure... the social environment is important. BUT it takes PARENTS to produce a child and Good parents to raise an adult. That quote is too often seen as an excuse for the results of bad parenting. DO you know when the "villiage" should step in and help raise a child??
When, and only when, the parents of that child are not able to!!!
PERIOD. Otherwise the villiage needs to mind their own curtain crawlers! Otherwise this quote is only applicable in a social-communist environment...and we've all seen the wonders that communism produces.   


> Don't you get tired of seeing/working with all the people who are now and had been nothing but a problem.


I don't work with problems. I don't even work with "bad kids". I work with Damaged Goods. These youth were let down in some very profound ways by their parents. 99% of the time the youth was neglected. There are two general kinds of neglect that you see:
#1: *malicious indiference:* "Damn kid. Never do anything right. Don't talk to me now...the game is on." So the kid makes up his world view from nothing better than the most base urges of the ID. (see Freud)
#2: *Benevolent indiference:* "Sure son, whatever you want."
This is the kid that was kept out of sight/out of mind by giving him whatever the hell he wanted and let him do whatever also.... for the parents later to find out (usually around 14yoa) that they've produced a selfish, self centered monster who believes that the world owes them everything. "How DARE that cop pick me up for shoplifting. How else am I gonna get my cigarettes"...says the 13 year old I saw last week.
These kids aren't THE problem, they are the fruits of it. The problem is parents that don't know how to parent and produce people who will grow up to pass on the legacy...and worsen it. Bad parenting is the only thing that doesn't have 'diminishing returns'...it gets bigger and bigger every generation.
DO NOT be your childs "Friend"!!! Be their parent. Be kind, but don't be a "Buddy". Let them grow up with the BLESSING of discipline...then be your friend once they have their own children and grow to appreciate exactly what it was you did for them!!! My parents did, and it's the best gift I've EVER been given next to the salvation through Jesus Christ!!!
No doubt about it.

I'm preaching again...
I think you get my point, so I'll step back from the podium and just let the music play.

Your Brother
John


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## loki09789 (Oct 18, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> I'm preaching again...
> I think you get my point, so I'll step back from the podium and just let the music play.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


Loki gives BJ a big hug and rocks him to sleep....."It's okay big guy, ......"   Passionate post!

The one point I disagree with (though hesitantly, 'gee Mrs. BJ, your hair looks lovely today, have you lost wt?), is the idea that "it takes a village..." is from the bowels of hell...though I think she lives in the burbs of hell, Billary is not satan.

I do agree with the idea that having a sense of community can help buffer how far down a child can go if there is bad parenting.  The idea that parenting and parenting alone is the key is too narrow a perspective for me to take personally.  I remember when a couple kids and their mother ran to my friends house to hide from their abusive father.  The community helped support them against the bad parenting and got them back on their feet with volutnary baby sitting and other 'village to raise a child' applications that helped these kids see a different adult male role model AND to survive bad parenting.

Being surrounded by a strong sense of community/family - whether it is grandparents, foster parents, adoptives/step/singe.... - and a genuine concern/love for the welfare of children is the answer.  That might equate to good parenting in some cases, but sometimes circumstances will dictate that it isn't going to be 'parents' that raise a child.


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## Brother John (Oct 18, 2004)

Agreed, Mrs. Clinton isn't Satan... nor do I think she's evil. Self seeking, missguided and wrong....sure! Not Satan.

I probably react too strongly to that quote to be honest. The social environment CAN be a very strong support, but I still hold that it 'Should' be secondary...not primary. 

You and I agree Loki (and BTW: Thanks for the rocking...though I didn't understand the "Mrs. BJ" part...but hey...Melissa thanks ya for the compliment I guess... I suppose someone named after the Norse diety of mischief and trickery shouldn't always be clear and obvious huh?) 
We agree that the community can play a crucial role in taking up the slack for bad parenting! There are many significant instances of highly successful people who were abused or neglected when a child. By rites they should have had every excuse to fail...but didn't. 
My GOAL is to be one of those REASONS that some didn't fail!!!! It's why I do what I do.
But these things come into play primarily when the parents don't do their job.
That's what I think.
Otherwise, the community should take a back seat in importance.

Your Brother
John


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## GAB (Oct 18, 2004)

Hi John,

I think you need to get out and see the light of day. 
Smell the flowers, see the other neighborhoods. Visit other countries get to know the other people in their own settings.

I was going to say in my other post, regarding working with habitual criminals and liars, that at least when you work the streets, you get to see more then one side of the story...I am saying, see, not hear.

I believe your passion against the parents, gives me a clue to your innerfeelings.

Much more to the big picture, then what you are seeing, IMO.

I agree with some of your thoughts or statements, and I will say I disagree also.

Thanks for the insight.

Regards, Gary


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## loki09789 (Oct 18, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Agreed, Mrs. Clinton isn't Satan... nor do I think she's evil. Self seeking, missguided and wrong....sure! Not Satan.
> 
> I probably react too strongly to that quote to be honest. The social environment CAN be a very strong support, but I still hold that it 'Should' be secondary...not primary.
> 
> ...


The Mrs. BJ comment:  Think Eddie Haskel from Leave it to Beaver....

We do agree and I see your point that if the family environment (regardless of the dynamics) is loving and generally moving in a healthy direction (nurturing children, supporting each other - even if not perfectly) the community is secondary (and should be).

FINALLY! Someone who "gets" the handle (and doesn't just recognize the origin).  Think of Loki (Norse demigod NOT ME) as the viking Bug Bunny of his day!  Although, even Bugs was a morphology of the ancient Afro/American - Native American trickster entities, so maybe not in shape but in function/presentation.


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## raedyn (Oct 18, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Exposure to 'role models' (not chosen but just happen to be the people you live around) is the biggy. If you are a decent person, working hard but are also a single parent in a poor/high crime (or even rich/high crime) area and your child is spending more time on his/her own because your working and don't have a solid support network, the child will learn vicariously about life from those 'other examples' whether you like it or not....


Yes!! I know, for example, a woman who is working three jobs to support her kids without welfare, who tries very hard to do a good job with them but she is never home because she is always working, and these kids are getting raised by.. each other, peers, local bad guys, whomever happens to be around. They live in a high-crime neighbourhood (but couldn't afford to live in a better one, and she doesn't have the education to get better paying jobs). They are turning into bad kids. At the convience store I worked at, the mom was one of our favorite customers, but none of her kids were allowed in the store because they'd all been caught stealing. And one of her kids eventually torched her house. It's sad.

<random off-topic thought>
If she's too busy struggling to support her family to do a good job raising them, would it be better for her to be on welfare and raising better citizens?
</random off-topic thought>


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## loki09789 (Oct 18, 2004)

raedyn said:
			
		

> <random off-topic thought>
> If she's too busy struggling to support her family to do a good job raising them, would it be better for her to be on welfare and raising better citizens?
> </random off-topic thought>


As long as she isn't camping out on the social services but using it as a mechanism to maintain some kind of family stability (time at home and such) while she is moving up and on to better education/job opportunites... I have no problem with this idea and it harkens back to the 'village raising a child' idea in a way.

NICE OBSERVATION!


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## TonyM. (Oct 18, 2004)

It's not. He's a moral cripple as well.


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## loki09789 (Oct 18, 2004)

TonyM. said:
			
		

> It's not. He's a moral cripple as well.


Huh?  Clarification please?


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## DavidCC (Oct 18, 2004)

> as far as me repeating statement over and again, and avoiding other points:
> 
> are there other points i should take into consideration...?


You say he was trying to sell records - who was he pandering too, and why do they agree with him? How many Americans agree with him, and why, and what can be done about that? Those might be important quesitons to think about. It's easy to post about how bad hip-hop is and how terrible kids can be but we already are all pretty much aware of all that so isn't that just :deadhorse: ?? Do you believe that it's just gang-banging degenerates who think along the lines of what KRS said? or might the problem be more wide-spread than that?



> i dont give a rat's *** why he made the statement


hypocrite or brain damage, you decide... your first couple posts in this thread were about nothing BUT why he did it : to sell records, to make money... but to who?????????



I said 


> KRS-One is out of line.


so where am I defending him?


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## Sapper6 (Oct 18, 2004)

hey david, get over it.  i got out of this conversation a long time ago.  so who's beating the dead horse here...? 

if you're just looking for someone to argue with, look elsewhere  :ultracool .  i spoke my mind and made my point already :supcool:


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## Bammx2 (Oct 18, 2004)

raise your hand if you have gotten a neg rep point since this started!

just curious......


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## DavidCC (Oct 18, 2004)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> hey david, get over it. i got out of this conversation a long time ago. so who's beating the dead horse here...?
> 
> if you're just looking for someone to argue with, look elsewhere :ultracool . i spoke my mind and made my point already :supcool:


a long time ago? friday night?  I'm not looking for someone to argue with, but you made some negative remarks directed at me ... instead of replying to the points I tried to make

I know you spoke your mind and made your point (a couple times)... OK then I responded to your point with one of my own.. it's called "discussion", try it, it can be fun. don't just snipe and run.

I'm more concerend about how many Americans believe what KRS-One said and why they do so. Got anything to say about that? (anyone?)  Why do so many Americans think that the US is to blame for 9-11??? rap music? video games?  I don't think so.


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## Brother John (Oct 18, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi John,
> 
> I think you need to get out and see the light of day.
> Smell the flowers, see the other neighborhoods. Visit other countries get to know the other people in their own settings.
> ...


I need to get out and see the light of day??
What I don't see is your point.
Are you saying that I can't view this situation beyond the walls I work within?
If so, you are wrong. I've "worked the field" as a casemanager for a while and I've done thousands of hours of family counseling and intervention/mediation in their homes. I'm not talking about your run of the mill, average American youth...I'm talking about the ones that have gone down the wrong path. Those are the ones I specialize in. 
YOU have the "bigger picture" by being a police officer? I don't doubt that in some ways you do, but a police officer doesn't spend NEARLY the time dealing with these youth day in and day out in ten years as I do in one. No way. An officer arrives on the scene and must make heads & tales out of a usually emotionally charged and confusing situation thatand decide what to do next....and move on to the next call. 
Instead of just telling me I'm wrong Gary, maybe you could tell me how I'm wrong, what I said that was wrong or why you feel it is wrong.
IF not, we won't ever understand one another.

Your Brother
John
PS: 





> I believe your passion against the parents, gives me a clue to your innerfeelings.


Please let me know what you think these clues are.
Hope you don't intend to get Freudian on me here.
I have GREAT parents and love them to no end.  I've just watched many a parent RUIN thier childrens lives and hearts.


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## Flatlander (Oct 18, 2004)

OK, I'll bite.

First, let me say that I do not think the citizens of the US are in any way to blame, nor do I believe that anyone else thinks that either.

Secondly, I do not believe the finger can ultimately be pointed at any 1 cause or person or group responsible, save OBL.  He planned, funded, enabled, and desired the attack.

Having said that, I believe that some may feel that the Administration of the US, both current and previous incarnations, bear some responsibility.  Maybe not throughdirect actions, certainly not intentionally, but the question must be asked - what is motivating these people to hate so deeply?

Essentially, the truth is there are numerous citizens throughout the US that disagree with many of the recent foreign policy decisions, to the extent of becoming angry and distrustful of their Administration.  Given that, I think that its entirely reasonable to imagine that the people who actually live the reality of suffering the consequences of those policy decisions (Iraqi  citizen, Afghani peasant, etc.) may experience negative feelings toward that Administration exponentially.  It's not surprising.

It's easy to sit back and look at the big picture when the closest you get to the problem is the newspaper.

So the question you posed was: 





> Why do so many Americans think that the US is to blame for 9-11?


 And I would say, because they recognise that the historical US foreign policy choices have created a cause effect that sowed the seeds for this type of extremism.  They have made themselves a target.

What is the problem with this line of reasoning?  It does NOT take into account what the other available choices were at the time, what other routes could have been explored, wherther or not there were better options.  Similarily, blaming the current Administration for the way cards they recieved when they sat down at the table is ludicrous and unfair.  They work with what they are given.

So is it fair to blame the US?  You decide.  Is it fair to point the finger at anyone in particular?  No!  It's a far more complex situation than that.

Does it resolve anything?  Does finger pointing ever?  No!  KRS is selling records.  If he were cutting the suffering and homeless in on his profits, I would feel differently about his motives.


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## MisterMike (Oct 18, 2004)

I think the same could be argued that even if we were completely innocent in our foreign policy, we still could have been attacked by these extremists just for being, well, _infidels._


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## Flatlander (Oct 18, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> I think the same could be argued that even if we were completely innocent in our foreign policy, we still could have been attacked by these extremists just for being, well, _infidels._


I disagree.  Canada has not been attacked.


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## raedyn (Oct 18, 2004)

(nevermind)


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## Brother John (Oct 18, 2004)

The most prosperous country of 'infidels' is the USA, not Canada.
The US is seen as a center for capitalism and democracy...and it is the most prosperous...thus the greatest target.

Just something to think about.

Your Brother
John


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## PeachMonkey (Oct 18, 2004)

The common assertion that the US was attacked because we're "free" and "prosperous" is a convenient fantasy, but not anything that has been backed with actual, you know, data.

It is clear, however, that our foreign polic, right or wrong, has upset many, and terrorists *have* related it directly to their acts.


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## GAB (Oct 18, 2004)

Hi Brother John,

No, no, no Freudian....Light, as in sunshine, not dark, not dank, not overburdened...I think that is what was floating around at the time....

I guess you are reading into something I said, that I did not say. I said I agree and disagree with you, talked about some other reasons...

Yes, you will see the true hard core case more if that is the work you do.

If you are talking in that vein of course, you will see the person who has finally arrived at your door, messed up to the max.

I did not mean to imply that your opinion was something I want to impugn.

I replied....with innerfeelings (truth/honest)You used the name of Jesus Christ...I was at a seminar this weekend they did that also, I am not around that many Dojo's that do that.

Also probably if you were called on the witness stand you would be classified as an expert in your field. 
But I think you are seeing to much of the one type, if that is where you want to place all of your blame. IMO

As I read and, have read your posts, I notice you are very passoniate in most of your replys, or post's, even when playing around with the Penguins...

Combative is another way to look at it...Thats fine, I have now seen it and understand you more...I guess I have not read enough of your posts, for I don't remember you talking about your religion on prior occasion.

Some people throw the name around a lot, others don't. I have been told by numerous persons that by being an Agnostic, it is like being Lucefer.
Some look at Lucefer as light, Morning star, others look at it as Satan or the Archangel. Or the fact that I am doing the devils work...Right...

Since you brought it up and I am trying to understand where you are coming from, do you bring up Jesus Christ when you are doing interview's and try to convert?

Have them see the right way through the way of the New Testament? 

Do you have pictures and sayings by him or about him in your office???

Just trying to get a little more insight.

Regards, Gary


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## Sapper6 (Oct 18, 2004)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> a long time ago? friday night?  I'm not looking for someone to argue with, but you made some negative remarks directed at me ... instead of replying to the points I tried to make
> 
> I know you spoke your mind and made your point (a couple times)... OK then I responded to your point with one of my own.. it's called "discussion", try it, it can be fun. don't just snipe and run.
> 
> I'm more concerend about how many Americans believe what KRS-One said and why they do so. Got anything to say about that? (anyone?)  Why do so many Americans think that the US is to blame for 9-11??? rap music? video games?  I don't think so.



i'd say being out of the conversation for over 2 days would be a long time, yes.  wouldnt you...?  

i certainly didnt mean to attack you personally and if you sensed that, then accept my apologies.  i did however disagree with your statements (as you did mine).  it could be construed however that by me disagreeing with where you stood on this issue (attacking your stand), that i did indeed attack you personally.  i only did this after you accused others and myself of being predudiced and harbouring racial biased because of the way we felt about this black guy making such a comment.  call it how you see it and i will as well.

to answer you most recent questions, i do not believe the united states is to blame for the 9-11 attacks.  i dont even go as far as blaming our administrations foreign policy for inducing such an attack.  to say this, you would also believe that our country's policy toward Japan in the 1940's provoked the attack on Pearl Harbor, hence, being our "own fault".  i dont blame anyone except for the countries/organizations behind such attacks.  if you or anyone else believes the United States of America are to blame for our ownselves being attacked, then i would suggest you find somewhere else to live.

you can't blame rap, video games, parents or anything else for such misfortunes.  we live in a time of war and the best thing to do is react accordingly, to go the furthest extent in seeing to it these misfortunes are not repeated.  if this means waging war across the globe against all foes believed to harbor, aid, finance, or otherwise engage in such activities, then so be it.  terrorism has no face, nation, race, or specific sterotype.  

to everyone:

instead of criticizing our administration for waging such a global war, stop and remember what our goal is.  to keep our happy asses safe and alive for so long as our creator wishes.  also keep in mind when blabbering about how our current republican administration should be handling this crisis, please remember our last democratic president passed on many opportunities to catch or kill bin laden but passed on the notion because it wasnt in our interests to do so.  perhaps he couldnt find the time in between morning PR runs to McDonalds or commiting unneccesary troops to the UN crisis in Somalia, or even molesting interns on the taxpayer time clock.

 :asian:


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## PeachMonkey (Oct 18, 2004)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> to answer you most recent questions, i do not believe the united states is to blame for the 9-11 attacks.  i dont even go as far as blaming our administrations foreign policy for inducing such an attack.  to say this, you would also believe that our country's policy toward Japan in the 1940's provoked the attack on Pearl Harbor, hence, being our "own fault".



It is not logically consistent to link an opinion about the causes of WWII with the causes of 9/11; a rational person could hold vastly differing opinions about both.

No one has proposed America is "to blame" for the 9/11 attacks... clearly, the perpetrators of the attacks are to blame.  Nor does America "deserve" the attacks, nor did the victims "deserve" to die.  

It has been suggested that American foreign policy helped lead to the attacks... suggesting this does not mean that someone should "leave America", except to the most purile and fascist of mindsets.



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> if this means waging war across the globe against all foes believed to harbor, aid, finance, or otherwise engage in such activities, then so be it.



Even if this global war is based on a lack of evidence, and actually exacerbates the situation, eh?  Nice.

One can distinguish, by the way, between global acts against threats to the US and the war in Iraq.  They are not necessarily linked, despite desperate _ipso post facto_ attempts to describe them otherwise.



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> instead of criticizing our administration for waging such a global war, stop and remember what our goal is.  to keep our happy asses safe and alive for so long as our creator wishes.



Way to not only gank the thread, but completely mischaracterize the opposition opinion.  If the invasion of Iraq had actually had anything to do with a direct threat to the States, you'd find far more support for it.



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> also keep in mind when blabbering about how our current republican administration should be handling this crisis, please remember our last democratic president passed on many opportunities to catch or kill bin laden but passed on the notion because it wasnt in our interests to do so.



Again, nice way to mischaracterize the facts.  The only time the Clinton administration "passed up" a chance with Bin Laden was when Bin Laden had directly committed *no* crimes against the United States, and had no jurisdiction over him.

Never mind the simple fact that the actions of the Clinton administration are actually _completely immaterial_ when it comes to the failures, lies, and incompetencies of the current administration.  Even if Clinton failed utterly, that's no excuse for Bush.



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> ...molesting interns on the taxpayer time clock.



I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you're not rising above this sort of inflammatory rhetoric.  Or maybe you simply don't understand the meaning of the word "molest".  There is a certain lack of consent implied, _n'est-ce pas_?  (Whoops, I used French, I must be a traitor!)

In the end, since you aren't demonstrating that the Bushies aren't a bunch of corrupt, lying thieves that have led the US and its so-called "coalition" into an illegal, immoral, failing war in Iraq, it can't hurt to lash out at its critics and even past Presidents, right?

I'm sorry for the vitriol and the thread gankage, but this kind of stuff is simply too much to silently bear.


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## heretic888 (Oct 18, 2004)

Nice, peachy. Nice.  :asian:


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## Bammx2 (Oct 18, 2004)

Sapper.......

:asian:


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## Sapper6 (Oct 18, 2004)

> It is not logically consistent to link an opinion about the causes of WWII with the causes of 9/11; a rational person could hold vastly differing opinions about both.



and they are different how...?  logically consistent?  have you looked in to Pearl?  you'd be suprised just how "logically consistent".  and btw, im not talking to include _all_ of WW2, just one integral part, Pearl Harbor.
it only makes sense, we are speaking here about 9/11, not the global war on terror.



> Way to not only gank the thread...



LOL, too funny!



> Again, nice way to mischaracterize the facts. The only time the Clinton administration "passed up" a chance with Bin Laden was when Bin Laden had directly committed *no* crimes against the United States...



do a little more research, then get back with me  



> Or maybe you simply don't understand the meaning of the word "molest". There is a certain lack of consent implied, n'est-ce pas?



perhaps _you_ don't.



> In the end, since you aren't demonstrating that the Bushies aren't a bunch of corrupt, lying thieves...



that's not even close to the topic of the thread, i like to keep it on topic  



> n'est-ce pas? (Whoops, I used French, I must be a traitor!)



???...guilty conscience...?  where did that come from?  ya gotta love them french online dictionaries :idunno: .



> No one has proposed America is "to blame" for the 9/11 attacks... clearly, the perpetrators of the attacks are to blame. Nor does America "deserve" the attacks, nor did the victims "deserve" to die.



perhaps the most intelligent statement you've made thus far.  why hell, that even deserves positive rep points, allow me to ablige... :asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 19, 2004)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> and they are different how...?  logically consistent?  have you looked in to Pearl?  you'd be suprised just how "logically consistent".  and btw, im not talking to include _all_ of WW2, just one integral part, Pearl Harbor.
> it only makes sense, we are speaking here about 9/11, not the global war on terror.
> 
> 
> ...




My Apologies for being late to this party.

My sanity and intelligence have been called into qustion before, and maybe will be again.

Pearl Harbor was the act of a sovereign nation in its agressive acts to move forward and gain more natural resources for its culture and economy. Now, Pearl did not have the resources, the USA does. Both San Deigo for it's port and San Franciso for its wealth and locations were also choices that teh Japanese wanted.  Some of the top admirals also wanted to hit Pearl Harbor in the U.S. territory of Hawai'i and then roll onto the San Deigo and take out all West Coast Port manufacturing facilities and create a place to launch land base attacks from.


9/11/2001 assault on the Twin Towers in NY, and the Pentagon, as well as the downed airplane, were terrorist attacks by individuals and groups with no clear sovereign nation behind them flying a flag. 

To me these simple semantics might be small, yet it is the difference of the two, that I would like to bring up.

Now given, that I have reasonable stated the above, it would be reasonable to argue that people might or would have different opinions based upon these difference alone. Now add in the cultural differences of the USA for both times, and the equations start to get real complex. 

Now I will grant, that one could argue they were suprise attacks, and made the general populace upset. 

Just my thoughts and opinions based upon my little knowledge of history, WWII or the Second Big War, and recent history.


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## Nightingale (Oct 19, 2004)

MT MOD NOTE:

Play nice, or it's getting locked.  

-Nightingale-
MT MODERATOR


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## 8253 (Oct 19, 2004)

Oh my, such arguing over such a simple subject.  Dosent matter about race, and hey WWII is over.  Some idiot decided to have some planes hit some buildings and kill several thousand people.  Then some other idiot decided to condone it.  Not cool.  I usually try to stay out of these types of arguments, but i cant resist this one.  It is disturbing to see people arguing about the reasons why a person would condone such a cowardly attack on civilians.  There are no reasons that could be explained to me that could make such an attack make sense.  Unfortunately in this particular case the person has the right to voice his opinion.  This is just my opinion hopefully it will not offend anyone but really 9-11 was a tragic moment in time and really should not be rejoiced by anyone.  No matter what the so called reasons.  There are no reasons to murder 1 person, much less thousands at a time.


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## Brother John (Oct 19, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Brother John,
> No, no, no Freudian....Light, as in sunshine, not dark, not dank, not overburdened...I think that is what was floating around at the time....
> I guess you are reading into something I said, that I did not say. I said I agree and disagree with you, talked about some other reasons...
> Yes, you will see the true hard core case more if that is the work you do.
> ...



Hey Gary-
Maybe I have read something else into what you were saying, could be.
I don't mean to jump down your throat man. Empassioned? That I don't mind being. Combative? I blame the key-board. For some reason I'm quite MELOW in person but come across as high-strung some times on the internet. So be it.

I do see some pretty hardcore cases, working with a couple of 'bloods' as of late that I'm very concerned about. But I don't get so jaded as to think that these kids are normative. They aren't. That's true. But I thought that what I was speaking to is the negative influences that effect todays teens...and that's something that I have to swim through daily. You are right that I need to try to have more contact with more normative teens who've not been harmed by lack of care or otherwise. That's something that the dojo is good for.

Me as a Christian. 
No, I don't throw the name "Jesus Christ" around like some kind of cure-all. I used it in the context that I did because I was sitting there thinking of what to type about "the greatest gift I was ever given" and I had to be intellectually honest...I see God's gift in Christ as the greatest gift I've ever been given. Truth be told...that statement stands out because most christians don't dare to say the name of Jesus very often at all. Not outside the walls of a church. Me? I don't over use it, no need. But when it's the truth, as in this case, I'm not ashamed.I don't have any pictures around, no quotes, no inspirational...stuff and I'll only talk to a youth about my religious beliefs if THEY bring the subject up. I pray for the kids I work with, a lot. That's an important thing to me. I don't try to convert anyone ever, I try to be a positive influence through my behavior. IF they want to know what I believe, the external of what I believe, they'll have to ask and watch. If they want to know deeper.... they'll have to BE me. 

My personal beliefs are very private and don't exactly fall in line with any one particular denominations. In fact, even at my own church...if my true beliefs were voiced, I'd probably get cries of "Heretic"...but that's OK. I don't need others to agree.

I respect your choice of being agnostic. Knowing that you don't know is an important thing to realize. It's a starting point. Shame is that all too many agnostics don't see it like that but as an excuse to NOT seek, to not explore the area of spirit and the infinite. A stasis point. Too bad, because otherwise it's a great place to start to construct your own beliefs, a foundation. ((just my thoughts))

Take it easy Gary...
Sorry for the tremendous side-line away from the topic guys.

Your Brother
John


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## loki09789 (Oct 19, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Pearl Harbor was the act of a sovereign nation in its agressive acts to move forward and gain more natural resources for its culture and economy. Now, Pearl did not have the resources, the USA does. Both San Deigo for it's port and San Franciso for its wealth and locations were also choices that teh Japanese wanted. Some of the top admirals also wanted to hit Pearl Harbor in the U.S. territory of Hawai'i and then roll onto the San Deigo and take out all West Coast Port manufacturing facilities and create a place to launch land base attacks from.
> 
> 
> 9/11/2001 assault on the Twin Towers in NY, and the Pentagon, as well as the downed airplane, were terrorist attacks by individuals and groups with no clear sovereign nation behind them flying a flag.
> ...


The strategic/military differences are clear.  

Pearl Harbor:  Strategic target intended as a 'one stop shopping center' to break the back of the US Pacific Naval power by the Japanese as a pre-emptive "Shhhh" because they were assuming that we would enter the war and pose a dreict threat.

9/11:  Shock and awe/fear/Terror goals with no clear MILITARY (meaning as a part of a uniformed/nationed military campaign) strategy but a clear TERRORIST strategy of attacking non combatives...for what purpose or motive?

Now, you can compare the post traumatic stress on a national level the occured after both attacks - even with the differences - because both incidents were precursors to the US becoming entrenched in wars 

(I KNOW that Iraq has no clear link to 9/11!  I am referring to being in a state of war NOT which war/who's war/right war....whether Afg or Iraq).

The thing to remember is that during these states of war, fear and precautionary measures are normal (not right but normal).  Even the women's sufferage movement was considered "traitorous" or "treasonous" by some during WWI.  Socialism/Communism in America (which was a powerful influence on the Labor movement and work place quality/safety/wage improvement) became the 'demon' of the day.

During WWII, we all know about the Internment camps.  What was harder to talk about was simple actions like the way the pledge use to be done in schools before the NAZI "Zieg Heil!" gesture was associated with Hitler and his movement....we use to put our hand on our hearts "I pledge allegiance"...then use the Roman/Nazi style palm facing/straight arm gesture toward the flag "to the flag of ....." but NOT NO MORE>>>

During WWII anything overtly Germanic in the UK was either 'reinvented' or simply renamed....

In the end, regardless of what my political affiliation, religious preference or skin color.... I would LIKE to think that we could all come together and 'clear the rubble' (metaphorically and literally) side by side in the face of this kind of tragedy - putting aside the 'individualistic agendas' because of the immediate 'team need.'  Obviously, KRS thinks otherwise.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 19, 2004)

To cheer whenever a life is lost is a shame.
To cheer when so many are lost is a crime.
The spear in the other's heart is the spear in your own: you are he.


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## loki09789 (Oct 19, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> To cheer whenever a life is lost is a shame.
> To cheer when so many are lost is a crime.
> The spear in the other's heart is the spear in your own: you are he.


Kudos Bob.  I would change the first to 'cheer because a life is lost...' personally, because I might be cheering because I survived not because the other did not.


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## GAB (Oct 19, 2004)

Hi Brother John,

Yes we did get off topic, but no one seems to mind, they are on it. Reminds me of college when I was younger, you get out of the class room and no one wants to talk about the subject.
Thanks for your thoughts and concerns, I am doing just fine, I have seen some ugly stuff and still remain positive, through correct thought and reality, what happens to me or my remains will remain to be seen...

Back to the Rappers. 
When I saw the planes hit the towers on TV, I thought they are not hitting the US but the World Towers. I felt that it would bring the nations together and get rid of these Terrorists for all.
Boy was I wrong....

As the story unfolded, I felt they were doing the wrong thing running into a building that is so high and not seeing the whole picture for that brief time.
I believe the training was such that they did not have the correct thought.

I said that at the time, my wife and I were in disagreement. Then the towers imploded, and the rest is history. 

I am sure that lots of people were cheering, I have no doubts, we are loved and hated by lots of people. I would say if you don't know that and understand, the lothing that is in other countries for what we have done, then you need to read more current events and history books.

I see it from both sides because, I have not succumbed to the rigors of religious right. Therefore I have a different picture in my minds eye.

Secularism is what we should be fighting for at this time in history.
Getting along in the workplace seems like the thing that needs to be worked on. Male-female relations need some help.

If there was another land to conquer and pollute, and the countries slogan was, "secularism is a pledge you have to take", it would be over crowded very soon. 

My thoughts, Regards, Gary


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