# Doing some research



## Perpetual White Belt (Aug 19, 2006)

I'm new to the Filipino arts and am currently researching staff work.  What is the most common length of a Filipino staff?


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## lhommedieu (Aug 20, 2006)

I think that about 6 feet, or about head level is standard for the staff, but there are a lot of different kinds of staffs in the Philippines and the length will vary.  Shorter persons will also use shorter staffs, etc.  Staff length will vary according to the use of the staff:  a staff used to carry loads across the shoulders, for example, will be a different length than that used primarily as a hiking staff, to help cross streams, etc.

Then there is the issue of whether the staff used by some styles for training is actually an adaptation of spear technique.  I'm currently attending Tuhon William McGrath's Pekiti Tirsia Kali summer camp in Fishkill, N.Y., where we spent yesterday learning Sibat (spear) techniques.  The training spear that we are using is about 7-8  feet long but that includes the length of what would be the spear head.  The weapon that I train spear technique for San Miguel Eskrima, on the other hand, is shorter at 6 feet long, but is also somewhat heavier.

There are also shorter staffs such as the tapado or ananangkil which come up to chest level or shorter; again, the length of these short staffs varies according to the uses to which they are put.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Perpetual White Belt (Aug 20, 2006)

I was seeing a lot of 4-5 ft. staves, but I only came across one site showing a 6 ft. Your post is the first time I came across anthing longer than that.  That's interesting.  I'll have to look into this some more.


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## lhommedieu (Aug 22, 2006)

As I said above, longer staff lengths may reflect the fact that they are surrogates for spears.  The spear techniques of which I am familiar occur in San Miguel Eskrima, Pekiti Tirsia Kali, and Kombatan.  (BTW - I would amend the length of the PTK spear to 6-7feet, not 7-8 feet.)  For San Miguel Eskrima Spear and Ananangkil see below:

http://www.northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/momoy.htm
http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/ananangkil.htm
http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/ananangkil_files/ananangkil.mpg

With respect to shorter staffs, often they reflect the fact that they are used to carry loads across the shoulders.  There are dos armas styles that are particular to food vendors, for example.

Best,

Steve


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## Perpetual White Belt (Aug 23, 2006)

My instructor has experiance in Okinawan weapons and said he really didn't want to learn more long weapons, but he seemed very interested when I showed him these clips along with a couple of others I had found on the web.


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 24, 2006)

lhommedieu said:
			
		

> As I said above, longer staff lengths may reflect the fact that they are surrogates for spears. The spear techniques of which I am familiar occur in San Miguel Eskrima, Pekiti Tirsia Kali, and Kombatan. (BTW - I would amend the length of the PTK spear to 6-7feet, not 7-8 feet.) For San Miguel Eskrima Spear and Ananangkil see below:
> 
> http://www.northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/momoy.htm
> http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/ananangkil.htm
> ...


 
Steve

I have seen staff techniques (bankaw) in Kombatan but I haven't seen (or I don't remember seeing) any spear techniques.  Not saying you can't use the staff similar to a spear etc. etc. I just don't remember seeing spear techniques like generally seen in kung fu systems or Japaneze system's that are readily apparent as such.  

Could you tell me about them, what you saw, when , etc. etc.  

Thanks
Mark


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 24, 2006)

Perpetual White Belt said:
			
		

> My instructor has experiance in Okinawan weapons and said he really didn't want to learn more long weapons, but he seemed very interested when I showed him these clips along with a couple of others I had found on the web.


 
Datu Kelly Worden has a VT/DVD out on the staff which I think is pretty good (it's been years since I saw it).

GM Ernesto Presas has  a VT on the bankaw which was pretty good.

And I think the Dog Brothers have a DVD/VT on the staff as well. 

FWIW
Mark


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## lhommedieu (Aug 25, 2006)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> Steve
> 
> I have seen staff techniques (bankaw) in Kombatan but I haven't seen (or I don't remember seeing) any spear techniques. Not saying you can't use the staff similar to a spear etc. etc. I just don't remember seeing spear techniques like generally seen in kung fu systems or Japaneze system's that are readily apparent as such.
> 
> ...


 
Maybe it's just an assumption on my part.  It was the Ernesto Presas' "Bangkaw" tape that you mention above, and I thought that "Bangkaw" meant "spear."  In that case, I made the assumption that although staff techniques are shown the "staff" is actually a surrogate for a spear.  It's been a while since I've seen the tape, but my recollection is that the staff in question is also somewhat long for a staff, which would support my assumption.  On the other hand, the techniques that I've just seen recently for Pekiti Tirsia Kali spear that include disengagements and counters to the hands, as well as thrusts that move through medium to long ranges as someone is retreating, are not shown on the Presas video, which may argue for the fact that it's just a staff.  

The techniques shown on the tape are power-oriented strikes with both the end and the butt and some thrusts mixed in; not a a lot of twirling, or quick, multiple thrusts like you would see in some (but not all) Chinese spear styles.  I'm not familiar with Japanese spear but my impression is that it was primarily a weapon for a line of soldiers, with training in individual technique saved for officers.

Best,

Steve


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## Perpetual White Belt (Aug 25, 2006)

I've seen some clips of the Presas video.  I'll do a search and see if I can find the others.  My instructor may have seen the Dog Brothers one.  I'll have to ask him.  I know he's checked out their Kali Tudo stuff.  Thanks!


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 26, 2006)

lhommedieu said:
			
		

> Maybe it's just an assumption on my part. It was the Ernesto Presas' "Bangkaw" tape that you mention above, and I thought that "Bangkaw" meant "spear." In that case, I made the assumption that although staff techniques are shown the "staff" is actually a surrogate for a spear. It's been a while since I've seen the tape, but my recollection is that the staff in question is also somewhat long for a staff, which would support my assumption. On the other hand, the techniques that I've just seen recently for Pekiti Tirsia Kali spear that include disengagements and counters to the hands, as well as thrusts that move through medium to long ranges as someone is retreating, are not shown on the Presas video, which may argue for the fact that it's just a staff.
> 
> The techniques shown on the tape are power-oriented strikes with both the end and the butt and some thrusts mixed in; not a a lot of twirling, or quick, multiple thrusts like you would see in some (but not all) Chinese spear styles. I'm not familiar with Japanese spear but my impression is that it was primarily a weapon for a line of soldiers, with training in individual technique saved for officers.
> 
> ...


 
Steve

I had some time to kill so I dug out my tape and watched it (Bankaw by GM Erensto).  In the opening monologe it says the bakaw reffered to a staff or spear.  However the tape treats the weapon as more of a staff than a spear.  There were very few thrusts with the end of the weapon and the majority of strikes were with shaft of the staff near the ends.

While at times the staff was held in thirds, the hands did slid down the shaft to increase it's range but the strikes were still with the shaft not really the ends or tips of the weapon.

The staff shown was a 6 foot rattan Bo staff.

I watched a progam on TV the other night on the documentary channel (it was at a friends house) on the sicience of fighting.  It was pretty cool, but on it they showed the power generated by empty hand strikes and different weapons, they also explained the uses of the weapons and such.  Watching the spear techniques on that program and comparing them to GM Ernesto's tape, I think they treat it like a staff more so that a spear. 

Mark


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## lhommedieu (Aug 26, 2006)

Thanks for the follow-up.  It's a staff then - not a spear.  With respect to PTK's spear there's a lot in this system - worth a look at if you're interested in this kind of weapon.  San Miguel Spear tends to be more foundational and not as technique driven - but looking at it through the lens of PTK you can "connect the dots" fairly quickly.

One other weapon I forgot to mention:  PTK's walking staff curriculum.  This is a short staff system that could easily fit the bill if one were hiking with hiking staff, playing billiards, etc.  It could even be adapted to a heavy cane.  Tuhon William McGrath probably has a tape available for seminar participants, and I think that Rick Faye also has a video available as well.  

With respect to staff see also Rick Tucci's DVD.

Best,

Steve


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## Perpetual White Belt (Aug 26, 2006)

In regard to Ernesto Presas' "Bangkaw" tape, I'm wondering if he used the 6 ft staff at TC Media's suggestion to help them sell more rattan staves.


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## lhommedieu (Aug 27, 2006)

Possibly - but I can get six foot lengths of rattan from a local caning supply company.

Best,

Steve


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 27, 2006)

I have seen the Filipino staff in various lengths from 4 feet 6 to 10 inches to 5 feet and a little over and finally to around 6 feet.  I do not think that there is any standardized length for the Filipino staff.  Pick up a stick, find a good instructor, see what they teach and enjoy.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 28, 2006)

Perpetual White Belt said:
			
		

> In regard to Ernesto Presas' "Bangkaw" tape, I'm wondering if he used the 6 ft staff at TC Media's suggestion to help them sell more rattan staves.


 
I don't think so

GM Ernesto has experience in many diferent weapons and among them are the traditional Okinawan weapons, Bo, Sai, Nunchaku, Tonfa per the intro of the tape.  When we had GM in for a seminar back in 02 or 03 (I've been hit in the head a time or two and forget :idunno: ) at the end of the seminar he had a Q&A demo time.  Several of the students were also practicing Kobudo at the time so they asked about using those weapons.  It didn't matter what it was, anything from a Bo to a towel, he used it with great skill against different attacks.

Mark


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## Perpetual White Belt (Aug 31, 2006)

Interesting.  I may have to check out that tape being a former Okinawan stylist.


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## Rocky (Sep 1, 2006)

If you can find a link or whatever, you may wanna check out the Topedo (sp) method of Eskrima, they use about a 4ft stick, its a very unusual powerful system, I know their are a few guys in Ohio (USA) I don'y knoe where it comes from in the Philipines, but its worth checking out....



Rocky


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## oosh (Sep 1, 2006)

Tapado comes from Negros I think.


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## Perpetual White Belt (Sep 2, 2006)

Thanks, I'll do a search.  I'm pretty close to the Ohio border, so depending on where they are, that may work nicely.


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## lhommedieu (Sep 2, 2006)

Rocky -

I'd be interested in learning more about the tapado group in Ohio.

Here's another tapado system:

http://www.modifiedmartialarts.com/tapado.htm

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## robertlk808 (Oct 10, 2006)

The Boar Man said:


> Datu Kelly Worden has a VT/DVD out on the staff which I think is pretty good (it's been years since I saw it).
> 
> GM Ernesto Presas has a VT on the bankaw which was pretty good.
> 
> ...


 

I just recently began training with Mike "Dogzilla" Tibbits from the Dog Brothers here on Oahu. My primary instructor back in Washington for several years is Datu Worden. I'm looking forward to learning form Mike combined with what I learned from Datu Worden and testing it out in sparring sessions.


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## robertlk808 (Oct 10, 2006)

You know you really gotta hand it to the creators of youtube.com

http://youtube.com/results?search_query=tapado

Click on the link and there should be several video clips to review..


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## lhommedieu (Oct 10, 2006)

A google search shows that the practioner some of the youtube clips above is Grandmaster Benefredo "Bebing" M. Lobrido of Bago City, president of the Original Filipino Tapado Long Stick Fighting Association, and nephew of Grandmaster Romeo "Nono" Mamar,

Thanks for sharing the clips - there's a wealth of information in them.  It's interesting to note that this is also the system that Ron Harris studied a few years ago.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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