# Attacking the Solar Plexus



## Drifter

This isn't a question on any technique in particular, I was just wondering what the medical effect of hitting someone in the solar plexus is. I know it hurts quite a bit, but I'm wondering why? Perhaps Doc could chime in. Thanks in advance!


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## parkerkarate

I heard that the impact can break a persons ribs. I am not totally sure yet. But that is a good question.


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## Jaymeister

the solar plexus is a group of nerves, that controls breathing among other things. So when you get hit there, you can't breathe properly.


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## bdparsons

Striking the solar plexus can have a varied effect, but basically the most common effect of a well placed solar plexus strike is a muscle spasm of the diaphragm. This causes the reaction of the person not being able to "catch their breath" or breath deeply. Other residual effects include items such as damage to the ribs at the base of the sternum; possible heart bruising (depending on the angle of the strike); diaphragmal tears or rips, etc.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## Bammx2

Generally...when you hit the solar plexus,you can cause the diaphramg to spasm,for lack of a better term,and it knocks the wind out of you and usually hurts a bit in the process.


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## Bammx2

bdparsons said:
			
		

> Striking the solar plexus can have a varied effect, but basically the most common effect of a well placed solar plexus strike is a muscle spasm of the diaphragm. This causes the reaction of the person not being able to "catch their breath" or breath deeply. Other residual effects include items such as damage to the ribs at the base of the sternum; possible heart bruising (depending on the angle of the strike); diaphragmal tears or rips, etc.
> 
> Respects,
> Bill Parsons
> Triangle Kenpo Institute


yea! what he said.

man..I gotta type faster!


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## bignick

From Deadly Karate Blows: The Medical Implications, which uses a back kick as an example strike to the solar plexus



> ...different angles of the kick will produce varied results. If the kick is directed toward the right side of the opponents' body, the liver and gallbladder will be damaged. If it is in the center of the solar plexus, the duodenum and pancreas will be thrust against the front of the lumbar spine. The abdominal aorta (huge vein) follows the lumbar spine vertically and is very snug against the front side of the vertebra. If the heel kick was strong enough to injure the vein, shock (extreme loss of blood) and death would follow almost immediately. The stomach (and some reports claim that the spleen) will be involved when the blow is to the left side of the solar plexus. The level, angle and strength of the kick will determine how many of these organs will be damaged.


 These are basically the worst case scenarios, I would say the most common result would be a stunned effect caused by having the "wind" knocked out of you. Just like others have said, which is caused by spasms in the diaphragm.


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## Doc

Drifter said:
			
		

> This isn't a question on any technique in particular, I was just wondering what the medical effect of hitting someone in the solar plexus is. I know it hurts quite a bit, but I'm wondering why? Perhaps Doc could chime in. Thanks in advance!



First of all, so that no one misunderstands, I am not a medical doctor, (although I did stay at a Holiday Inn before) KenpoDoc or Dr. Crouch perhaps would be better if you want clear medical implications. My academic and physical expertise is in the physics of human anatomy, and the implications of human movement in physical interaction. 

So from this perspective, most people (short of an auto accident) are usually actually *NOT* struck in the "solar plexus," which is located *behind* the stomach below the diaphram. It is a significant part of the nervous system in the region and actual impact could affect autonomic nerve function greatly affecting breathing, intestinal contractions, etc. and generates great pain.

Most are *more likely* struck in the "sternum (breastbone), or rib-cage. The upper portion of the sternum is attached to the clavicles and is also connected to the first 7 ribs. Most are familiar with the lower portion of the sternum called the zyphoid process. (That little bone where they teach you NOT to push when giving CPR because it will break). The obvious implication here are fractures, which include the ribs. However short of significant deceleration impact injuries, the sternum tends to stay intact with fracture of the ribs more common, and its associated implications and punctures of proximal organs.

Of greater interest to me, and has more implications in Kenpo is the condition known as "Commotio Cordis." Commotio cordis is a sudden death induced by minor chest wall impact, without cardiac abnormalities.

The general medical thought is the impact through misfortune occurs within a specific timing of the heart cycle that disrupts the heart muscles inducing fibrillation. My own research suggests that negative body posture and an impact in the vicinity of K-22 is at the least a contributing factor in ventricular fibillation. Therefore, techniques that promote kicks to the upper torso with the body in a particular induced "bent forward" posture, in my opinion have the potential of siginificant injury or death even within the "light" contact associated with in-house technique execution.

Despite significant impact sports like football and hockey, and even soccor, the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) recorded 88 deaths in baseball from 1973 to 1995, more than any other sport. Sixty-eight deaths were caused by ball impact, and the majority were ball impacts to the chest area while batting.


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## Drifter

Doc said:
			
		

> First of all, so that no one misunderstands, I am not a medical doctor, (although I did stay at a Holiday Inn before).


 Whoops, my misunderstanding! Your knowledge and understanding of the body led me to think otherwise.

 Thank you all for your input! I doubt I could hit hard enough to kill (short of the Commotio Cordis Doc mentioned), but I'm glad to know the implications, as far as a legal sense is concerned.

 As a semi-related follow-up, would the same muscles be affected when falling on ice (for example) and landing on your back?


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## Ceicei

Drifter said:
			
		

> Whoops, my misunderstanding! Your knowledge and understanding of the body led me to think otherwise.


 I think you may thinking of another user, Kembudo-Kai Kempoka. He is otherwise known as Dr. Dave....  I think he is a medical doctor.  I may be wrong though.  

  - Ceicei


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## Ceicei

Doc said:
			
		

> Despite significant impact sports like football and hockey, and even soccor, the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) recorded 88 deaths in baseball from 1973 to 1995, more than any other sport. Sixty-eight deaths were caused by ball impact, and the majority were ball impacts to the chest area while batting.


 I wonder if it might be an issue of point of impact/area coverage?  With football and soccer, the impact tends to be more spread out (and with football, covered with padding).  With a baseball throw and with karate strikes, the impact would be much more concentrated and thus may cause more damage.  At least that idea makes sense to me.

 - Ceicei


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## Bode

> I think you may thinking of another user, Kembudo-Kai Kempoka. He is otherwise known as Dr. Dave.... I think he is a medical doctor


 Dr. Dave is a Doctor of Chiropractics. I'm sure he will clarify. 
 KenpoDoc is a doctor of medicine I believe. Which speciality I don't know.



> I wonder if it might be an issue of point of impact/area coverage?


 There is not a doubt. Take a pen and place it on your skin, tip down. Put a 2.5 pound weight on the top. Ouch! Reverse the pen so the flat end is on your skin. Doesn't hurt. 
 Architectural designs deal with point loads and weight distribution. Armor piercing bullets are contain a pointed tip of hardened steel (or other extremely hard material). 
 Science and physics. Seems to creep into the martial "arts" whether we like it or not.  Just a thought.


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## Doc

Bode said:
			
		

> Dr. Dave is a Doctor of Chiropractics. I'm sure he will clarify.
> KenpoDoc is a doctor of medicine I believe. Which speciality I don't know.


Dr. Dave - D.C.
KenpoDoc - M.D.
Doc - Ph.D.



> Science and physics. Seems to creep into the martial "arts" whether we like it or not.  Just a thought.


You mean REAL science and physics and not concepts.


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## KenpoDave

Doc said:
			
		

> Despite significant impact sports like football and hockey, and even soccor, the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) recorded 88 deaths in baseball from 1973 to 1995, more than any other sport. Sixty-eight deaths were caused by ball impact, and the majority were ball impacts to the chest area while batting.



I had also read that more injuries were caused by the "soft" rubberized balls used in the younger leagues because of the balls tendency to compress and rebound on and right after impact.


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## loki09789

bdparsons said:
			
		

> Striking the solar plexus can have a varied effect, but basically the most common effect of a well placed solar plexus strike is a muscle spasm of the diaphragm. This causes the reaction of the person not being able to "catch their breath" or breath deeply. Other residual effects include items such as damage to the ribs at the base of the sternum; possible heart bruising (depending on the angle of the strike); diaphragmal tears or rips, etc.
> 
> Respects,
> Bill Parsons
> Triangle Kenpo Institute


I believe the bone that covers the Solar Plexus is called the Zyphoid Process. Theoretically, this piece can break off and cause damage like a piece of shrapnel if impacted.

The solar plexus, as far as I know, is the vacuum space between the lungs and the diaphram muscle that creates the pump pressure (like a manual water pump) that creates suction to pull air into the lungs or pressure to push air out of the lungs. So, in reality when you target the Solar Plexus you are creating an energy wave that travels primarily through that vacuum and is the equivalent of the affect when you squeeze a balloon.

Could a person create enough force to actually tear/rip the diaphram? What about that thin membrane the maintains the vacuum below the lungs, what affect would damage to that have on a person?


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## Ray

Now that I know we have at least one MD and possibly several other people qualified to know:  I'm curious about the possiblity of rupturing the pancreas via a strike.  About 17 yrs ago, one of my children took a spill on a bicycle and he landed on the end of the handle bar.  It was, maybe 2 inches lower than the bottom of the sternum (lower than than the solar plexus).  It ruptured his pancreas and he needed surgery.

I guess I'm asking if it is a viable target?


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## distalero

Although it can collapse on a sort of compartmentalized basis, generally speaking ripping the pleural lining could cause a lung lobe filling with blood leading to a collapsed lung. If it gets bad enough it can pull the trachea over to the opposite side and kill ya dead.


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## loki09789

distalero said:
			
		

> Although it can collapse on a sort of compartmentalized basis, generally speaking ripping the pleural lining could cause a lung lobe filling with blood leading to a collapsed lung. If it gets bad enough it can pull the trachea over to the opposite side and kill ya dead.


Let me quote from MY BIG FAT GREEK WEDDING:  "Ew.  Please tell me that was the end of your speech..."

Really makes you realize how important RESPONSIBLE training really is when you read stuff laid out this graphically,


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## Simon Curran

For what it is worth, (I have no medical knowledge, but believe that feeling is believing) I was at a seminar playing dummy as usual this last weekend, and managed to find myself on the business end of a very heavy front kick to the area moat of us know as the solar plexus...
 Result? about 2 minutes sitting on my butt, 2 bruised ribs and a smile that just won't go away...


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## Doc

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> For what it is worth, (I have no medical knowledge, but believe that feeling is believing) I was at a seminar playing dummy as usual this last weekend, and managed to find myself on the business end of a very heavy front kick to the area moat of us know as the solar plexus...
> Result? about 2 minutes sitting on my butt, 2 bruised ribs and a smile that just won't go away...



Exactly. It sounds like you were stuck in the sternum resulted in the bruised ribs as I suggested in my previous post, and not the solar plexus which not easily accessed by human blunt force trauma. Gentleman please re-read my post as it answers most of the generated questions.


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## Simon Curran

Doc said:
			
		

> Exactly. It sounds like you were stuck in the sternum resulted in the bruised ribs as I suggested in my previous post, and not the solar plexus which not easily accessed by human blunt force trauma. Gentleman please re-read my post as it answers most of the generated questions.


 You would probably know that better than me sir, like I say I just know how it feels...


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## DavidCC

What about the soft area just under the zyphoid process and above the stomach?  When struck there, (under the sternum!) it feels like the breath is kno0wcked out, can;t breathe... isn't that the solar plexus??  The sternum is bone, you know when you hit it vs the soft flesh.

????

-David


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## Kenpodoc

Language is always a devil.

Solar Plexus - that Portion of the prevertebral plexus which lies in front and to the sides of the aorta at the origin of the celiac trunk and superior mesenteric and renal arteries. It contains celiac ganglia, the superior mesenteric ganglia and small unnamed ganglionic masses. Branches of the plexus extend along the adjacent artery.  (Plexus means network or tangle) (solar refers to the radiating away from the center like light does from the sun.)

This net work will be very difficult to access from the outside because it is deep in our abdomen. Extreme focal blunt force injury should be needed to actually injure this plexus.

Colloquial use of "Solar Plexus" refers to the soft spot in the central upper abdomen.  Strikes here may cause dyspnea and nausea. I can find no convincing proof that strikes here cause diaphragmatic paralysis and suspect that the dyspnea results from guarding against pain and not using the diaphragm to breathe. In fact if I have a student balled up after such a strike getting them to stretch upright and breathe with their belly (actually with their diaphragm) usually solves the problem. The nausea probably is secondary to direct stomache trauma especially if the stomache is still full.  

Rib injuries are discussed well above but  are probably separate from the SolarPlexus discussion. The Xyphoid is tough and it would probably take a high velocity piece of lead to shatter it and send it into the Plexus.

Hope this is helpful.

Jeff M.D.,
Family Practice
Just a simple country doctor but as county coroner get more than my share of oportunities to view the results of trauma.


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## Doc

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Language is always a devil.
> 
> Solar Plexus - that Portion of the prevertebral plexus which lies in front and to the sides of the aorta at the origin of the celiac trunk and superior mesenteric and renal arteries. It contains celiac ganglia, the superior mesenteric ganglia and small unnamed ganglionic masses. Branches of the plexus extend along the adjacent artery.  (Plexus means network or tangle) (solar refers to the radiating away from the center like light does from the sun.)
> 
> This net work will be very difficult to access from the outside because it is deep in our abdomen. Extreme focal blunt force injury should be needed to actually injure this plexus.
> 
> Colloquial use of "Solar Plexus" refers to the soft spot in the central upper abdomen.  Strikes here may cause dyspnea and nausea. I can find no convincing proof that strikes here cause diaphragmatic paralysis and suspect that the dyspnea results from guarding against pain and not using the diaphragm to breathe. In fact if I have a student balled up after such a strike getting them to stretch upright and breathe with their belly (actually with their diaphragm) usually solves the problem. The nausea probably is secondary to direct stomache trauma especially if the stomache is still full.
> 
> Rib injuries are discussed well above but  are probably separate from the SolarPlexus discussion. The Xyphoid is tough and it would probably take a high velocity piece of lead to shatter it and send it into the Plexus.
> 
> Hope this is helpful.
> 
> Jeff M.D.,
> Family Practice
> Just a simple country doctor but as county coroner get more than my share of oportunities to view the results of trauma.


Hey - that's what I said! (Except for the country doctor part.  The "solar plexus' is virtually impossible to access through human produced "blunt force trauma" absent falling from height and striking an object, or a similarly induced situation in rapid deceleration in an auto accident.

Thanks Doc

PS: 
I agree about the posture affecting breathing. Certain strikes or combinations thereof have the affect of "sealing the breath," as it is called from the old Chinese - and there are specific postures, movement, and breath exercises that will restore or "unseal the breath" in an instant. My students are conditioned to perform the function themselves when they are struck to that degree during class. In fact one of my browns had the occasion to use it last night. (I told him not to be bring a girlfriend to watch class. Fortunately she left before it happened.)

Colloquilisms are fine unless you're teaching on a level that requires deeper understanding. On the other side of the coin, students have become accustomed to "understanding" everything as they learn, and that is a bad idea. Information should be disseminated on an "as needed" basis, leaving students free to concentrate on "how" to perform their physical movements correctly. Concentrating on "how" to make self-defense actually work is a much higher priority for students than understanding "why" what they do works.

Reality suggests as students progress, more and more information will become generally available. Instructors will have more of this information however even they have limited information of "why," as they struggle and concentrate on becoming teachers of "how" to teach execution. True senior professors know the "whys" while many with lottsa stripes know only "how" to put stripes on belts better than anything.

"General knowledge always produces general results." - Ed Parker Sr.


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## Kenpodoc

Doc said:
			
		

> Hey - that's what I said! (Except for the country doctor part.  The "solar plexus' is virtually impossible to access through human produced "blunt force trauma" absent falling from height and striking an object, or a similarly induced situation in rapid deceleration in an auto accident.
> 
> Thanks Doc
> 
> PS:
> I agree about the posture affecting breathing. Certain strikes or combinations thereof have the affect of "sealing the breath," as it is called from the old Chinese - and there are specific postures, movement, and breath exercises that will restore or "unseal the breath" in an instant. My students are conditioned to perform the function themselves when they are struck to that degree during class. In fact one of my browns had the occasion to use it last night. (I told him not to be bring a girlfriend to watch class. Fortunately she left before it happened.)
> 
> Colloquilisms are fine unless you're teaching on a level that requires deeper understanding. On the other side of the coin, students have become accustomed to "understanding" everything as they learn, and that is a bad idea. Information should be disseminated on an "as needed" basis, leaving students free to concentrate on "how" to perform their physical movements correctly. Concentrating on "how" to make self-defense actually work is a much higher priority for students than understanding "why" what they do works.
> 
> Reality suggests as students progress, more and more information will become generally available. Instructors will have more of this information however even they have limited information of "why," as they struggle and concentrate on becoming teachers of "how" to teach execution. True senior professors know the "whys" while many with lottsa stripes know only "how" to put stripes on belts better than anything.
> 
> "General knowledge always produces general results." - Ed Parker Sr.


I knew I was just rephrasing what you had said.   :asian: I agree that too much time is spent on why's but I can't help it. I started saying "Why." at age 1 and haven't been able to stop.  There's nothing wrong with asking Why unless it stops you from learning how.  In medicine I frequently see both patients and doctors reject healing processes that work just because it doesn't fit their preconceived theorys.  

Hope to meet you some day,

Jeff


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## Doc

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> I knew I was just rephrasing what you had said.   :asian: I agree that too much time is spent on why's but I can't help it. I started saying "Why." at age 1 and haven't been able to stop.  There's nothing wrong with asking Why unless it stops you from learning how.  In medicine I frequently see both patients and doctors reject healing processes that work just because it doesn't fit their preconceived theorys.
> 
> Hope to meet you some day,
> 
> Jeff


I totally agree Doc. Definitely looking forward to hooking up. I like hanging with you smart guys - makes me look smart too!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Dang it, I missed this one. Too damn busy with work, where the PC's don't function.  Ah, well. It was good.

With all reespects to my distinguished colleagues, I'll add my own thoughts.

The body has some "reflexes" (put in quotes, because not really reflexes, but responses with a certain amount of predictable automaticity) that are designed to prevent the onset of FURTHER injury. Take a blown disc for example. Go back 5000 years. You're chasing a gazelle with a stick, turn wrong, and herniate a disc in your back. The extent of this potentially paralyzing injury is not known, and the injury itself may be quite serious. The stretch-sensitive nerve surrounding the circumference of the disc sends a signal to the spinal cord that essentially says, "Wait! Something's amiss!". The spinal cord, in turn, sends a signal to the deep intrinsic muscles spanning the joint in which the disc lives to spasm; to splint the joint via hypertonicity, and also to send very serious pain signals to the brain.  Why? If you keep running with a blown disc, you could damage the spinal cord itself...part of the central nervous system...the only organ system in the body that nature decided was so important, that it encased it in a vault of bone, from head, to tail. Literally.

Muscles only know how to do one thing in response to insult or injury: contract. This is the splinting or spasm people feel when they pull their back. It's the bodies way of saying, "Stop what you're doing, dummy. It's bad for you."

Side note for a minute. In embryology, there is a name for "some buncha cells that started off in the same cluster together, before differentiation". Referred pain is pain shared among these cell groups due to shared innervation. It's why the left shoulder and/or jaw will hurt during a heart attack; they were all baby-cells together, before some went off to become shoulder tissues, some went off to become jaw tissues, and others went off to become heart & pericardium. 

Back to the breadbasket...the stomach has an ongoing ball of air in it, called the meganblas (sp?...too wiped to look it up). Guts are stretch-sensitive. Because they stretch and shrink in the course of the day just taking care of digestive business, it usually takes a pretty good stretch to cause pain. But it is one of the few stimuli they are definitely programmed to respond to (distention & ischemia).  Put it together, and what do you get?

Punch -> compresses the meganblaas, causing distension of the upper tissues of the stomach itself -> referred reflexive hypertonicity of the diaphragm, as the bodies way of getting you to "stop what you're doing! It's bad for you!".

Diaphragmatic spasm unlocks easily, provided there is no pressing injury to the gut. But note: bending forward in pain and grasping the waist with both hands provides an excellent protective position against the occurrance of any further stomach injury.

Regards,

D.


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## Kenpodoc

A couple of comments.  
1. Meganblass is not a common medical term and I could not find it in my medical texts.  The stomache is just a bag of smoothe muscle and when empty would be very difficult to damage without penetrating injury.  When distended it can press againstboth the abdominal wall anteriorly and the spine posteriorly.  In that case it technically could be damaged with blunt force trauma.  Even with a full stomache, trauma would be  more likely to cause vomiting as the increased pressure forced material out the root of least resistance (the esophogus.)  This is a good reason why carbonated drinks do not enhance ones ability to take a punch.
2. In a lean individual the stomache muscles (Rectus Abdominus) help protect the underlying organs by contracting and forming a shield. In obese people the overlying fat and the fat infiltrating between organs in the abdominal cavity form a significant protective layer.  This means that  an abdominal strike which might drop even a well trained fit thin person would be unlikely to affect a sumo wrestler.  The practical application of this is that the leather jacketed obese beer bellied Motorcyclist you offend in the bar may not respond to your best solar plexus strike.
3. I would add to what Dr. Dave says above by saying that muscles have 2 responses available, Contracting and Not contracting (relaxing). In the case of the "solar plexus" injury (colloquial not anatomic) I believe the natural response is for the abdominal muscles to splint and the diaphragm to relax.  This causes the recipient to (as Doc pointed out) ball up in a protective manner but it also "seals the breath" (a nice descriptive term I will steal). The diaphragm is not paralized but the body just chooses not to use it.  This is a natural response which can be overcome with practice and or direction from a partner.  

I think the most important lesson from this is that not everyone responds the same way to a strike to the solar plexus.  The same strike might be devastating to one person and barely register on another.  As I review the EPAK techniques as I know them I think it is interesting that solar plexus shots are not used as technique ending closers but generally followed by other strikes. Conquering Shield (without extension) ends with an elbow but is set up by the raking backknuckle which should cause the abdominal muscles to relax as the head reflexly moves back away from the trauma. This would "open" up the "solar Plexus" to trauma by relaxing the protective overlying muscles.

Respectfully submitted,

Jeff


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> A couple of comments.
> 1. *Meganblass is not a common medical term and I could not find it in my medical texts. The stomache is just a bag of smoothe muscle and when empty would be very difficult to damage without penetrating injury*. When distended it can press againstboth the abdominal wall anteriorly and the spine posteriorly. In that case it technically could be damaged with blunt force trauma. Even with a full stomache, trauma would be more likely to cause vomiting as the increased pressure forced material out the root of least resistance (the esophogus.) This is a good reason why carbonated drinks do not enhance ones ability to take a punch.
> 2. In a lean individual the stomache muscles (Rectus Abdominus) help protect the underlying organs by contracting and forming a shield. In obese people the overlying fat and the fat infiltrating between organs in the abdominal cavity form a significant protective layer. This means that an abdominal strike which might drop even a well trained fit thin person would be unlikely to affect a sumo wrestler. The practical application of this is that the leather jacketed obese beer bellied Motorcyclist you offend in the bar may not respond to your best solar plexus strike.
> 3. I would add to what Dr. Dave says above by saying that muscles have 2 responses available, Contracting and Not contracting (relaxing). In the case of the "solar plexus" injury (colloquial not anatomic) I believe the natural response is for the abdominal muscles to splint and the diaphragm to relax. This causes the recipient to (as Doc pointed out) ball up in a protective manner but it also "seals the breath" (a nice descriptive term I will steal). The diaphragm is not paralized but the body just chooses not to use it. This is a natural response which can be overcome with practice and or direction from a partner.
> 
> I think the most important lesson from this is that not everyone responds the same way to a strike to the solar plexus. The same strike might be devastating to one person and barely register on another. As I review the EPAK techniques as I know them I think it is interesting that solar plexus shots are not used as technique ending closers but generally followed by other strikes. Conquering Shield (without extension) ends with an elbow but is set up by the raking backknuckle which should cause the abdominal muscles to relax as the head reflexly moves back away from the trauma. This would "open" up the "solar Plexus" to trauma by relaxing the protective overlying muscles.
> 
> Respectfully submitted,
> 
> Jeff


Contrast radiology; normal finding in vivo, not observed as in cadaveric evaluation. After barium swallow, plain film radiograph of abdominal/thoracic cavity will show what looks like a small mushroom cloud-shaped thingy that starts in the known boundaries of the stomache, but seems to extend further superiorly on the left than the normal boundaries of the stomach are considered to occupy. Higher than the esophageal haitus, it doesn't seek an exit via that route on compression. Just hurts.

D.


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## Bode

> Contrast radiology; normal finding in vivo, not observed as in cadaveric evaluation. After barium swallow, plain film radiograph of abdominal/thoracic cavity


 For some reason this reminded me of Fight Club... I am jacks bruised brain.


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## Babook

Wow, I know this is an old thread. 

Is horizontal fist or vertical fist best to strike the solar plexus? Is elbow or upercut better in close distance? 

Thanks.


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## Doc

Babook said:


> Wow, I know this is an old thread.
> 
> Is horizontal fist or vertical fist best to strike the solar plexus? Is elbow or upercut better in close distance?
> 
> Thanks.



Yeah it's an old post, and one that you need to read from beginning to end to answer your question.


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## Babook

I actually read the whole thing before posting. 

I now know what happens to the body, when it's hit and I know the anatomy thanks to everyone, but I am not sure what is the best technique.


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## seasoned

I have seen people go down with a variety of strikes to the Solar Plexus. The more accuracy, the more penetration. With enough power, anywhere close to the vicinity will do.


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## K-man

Babook said:


> Wow, I know this is an old thread.
> 
> Is horizontal fist or vertical fist best to strike the solar plexus? Is elbow or upercut better in close distance?
> 
> Thanks.


The solar plexus is not a high percentage target. I've been dropped once, having been hit there, in about 20+ years of sparring. I can tell you that, when it works, it works well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Best angle to hit is with the fist about half way between the two extremes. Front elbow is unlikely to do much because of the angle of attack. Uppercut? Maybe, if you're lucky.


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## Yondanchris

Babook said:


> Wow, I know this is an old thread.
> 
> Is horizontal fist or vertical fist best to strike the solar plexus? Is elbow or upercut better in close distance?
> 
> Thanks.




Vertical punch (AKA Thrust punch) works well also the reverse punch/uppercut (AKA back two knucle) could also get the job done as far as handstrikes, For kicks I would say a front ball kick, back kick, rising knee, and roundhouse ball kick could also work. 

Chris


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## Doc

You cannot strike someone in the solar plexus because it is not physically accessible by punching or human striking.


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## Yondanchris

Nevermind...


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## Doc

Sandanchris said:


> But one can duplicate some of the effects of striking the solar plexus and "taking their breath away" by using the above strikes.
> 
> Chris



No you can't.


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## K-man

Because of the position of the solar plexus it is not possible to actually hit it directly because of its location below the diaphragm. It lies mainly on the front of the aorta, where this main artery enters the abdomen by passing down through the diaphragm, and behind the stomach. 

However, a penetrating strike to the upper part of the abdomen just below the xiphoid process, will increase abdominal pressure which may put pressure on the solar plexus causing temporary paralysis of the diaphragm or the 'winding' effect.  Another effect here is that pressure on the solar plexus can cause a drop in blood pressure similar to a strike to the neck.  That would explain why I went straight to the floor when I was hit.  Recently I was at a Systema seminar where I was hit by Alex Kostic.  That hit was nowhere near as hard but had a similar winding effect that lasted some time but didn't cause me to fall.

An analogy might be, a strike to the jaw does not directly hit the brain.  The shock is transmitted to the brain disrupting the nervous system and causing the ko.

The angle and direction of the strike is also critical, which would back up the idea that it is the increase in abdominal pressure that causes the damage.


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## Mark Jordan

Solar plexus is located at the inverted v-shape of the bottom of your rib cage which is the exact center of the torso.  This is where the specialized nerves intermingle, rebundled for various organs and set off in new directions.

The immediate effect is  the transient or temporary diaphragmatic spasm which could knock the wind out of you and making it difficult to breathe.

Getting a hard blow on this area can also damage the nerves and cause serious organ dysfunction.


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## K-man

Mark Jordan said:


> Solar plexus is located at the inverted v-shape of the bottom of your rib cage which is the exact center of the torso.


 
Sorry. That is not correct. Look for the 'caeliac' plexus on this diagram. It is right inside, behind the stomach, nowhere near the surface.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray838.png

The location to strike to affect the solar plexus is where you describe.

If you read the earlier threads you will get a better picture but #23 is from a MD.



> Language is always a devil.
> 
> Solar Plexus - that Portion of the prevertebral plexus which lies in front and to the sides of the aorta at the origin of the celiac trunk and superior mesenteric and renal arteries. It contains celiac ganglia, the superior mesenteric ganglia and small unnamed ganglionic masses. Branches of the plexus extend along the adjacent artery. (Plexus means network or tangle) (solar refers to the radiating away from the center like light does from the sun.)
> 
> This net work will be very difficult to access from the outside because it is deep in our abdomen. Extreme focal blunt force injury should be needed to actually injure this plexus.
> 
> Colloquial use of "Solar Plexus" refers to the soft spot in the central upper abdomen. Strikes here may cause dyspnea and nausea. I can find no convincing proof that strikes here cause diaphragmatic paralysis and suspect that the dyspnea results from guarding against pain and not using the diaphragm to breathe. In fact if I have a student balled up after such a strike getting them to stretch upright and breathe with their belly (actually with their diaphragm) usually solves the problem. The nausea probably is secondary to direct stomache trauma especially if the stomache is still full.
> 
> Rib injuries are discussed well above but are probably separate from the SolarPlexus discussion. The Xyphoid is tough and it would probably take a high velocity piece of lead to shatter it and send it into the Plexus.
> 
> Hope this is helpful.
> 
> Jeff M.D.,
> Family Practice
> Just a simple country doctor but as county coroner get more than my share of oportunities to view the results of trauma.


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## marlon

Doc said:


> No you can't.


 
So, what are the strikes in the general area that people are calling the solar plexus all about.

Also, how does one achieve the best effect from striking that area?  How does one make a strike there effectively?

Many thanks
Marlon


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## Touch Of Death

marlon said:


> So, what are the strikes in the general area that people are calling the solar plexus all about.
> 
> Also, how does one achieve the best effect from striking that area?  How does one make a strike there effectively?
> 
> Many thanks
> Marlon


Best hit when breathing in. Listen for pants. We all know it hurts to get hit there. Why is some sciency babble going to change anything? There is a location on the body that really hurts when you hit it, just above the belly button and below the rib cage. Now go!
Sean


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## marlon

Well you are absolutely right and my first instinct is to bow and thank you for the KISS reminder.  Yet, a sciency response might lead me somewhere I need to go.  So, I accept your reprimand and will honor the wisdom you shared and still hope for another response...if that is possible to do respectfully.

Marlon


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## Indie12

Drifter said:


> This isn't a question on any technique in particular, I was just wondering what the medical effect of hitting someone in the solar plexus is. I know it hurts quite a bit, but I'm wondering why? Perhaps Doc could chime in. Thanks in advance!


 
All of your important organs (minus the brain and heart) are located in your solar plexus, and are vulnerable to injury very easily. There are millions of nerve connections running through your solar plexus which act as a 'warning' system when your hit. Your ribs, will to a point protect some of the organs, but the intestines and fat around your organs are what protects those vital areas.

-EMS Provider!


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## Indie12

Kenpodoc said:


> Language is always a devil.
> 
> Solar Plexus - that Portion of the prevertebral plexus which lies in front and to the sides of the aorta at the origin of the celiac trunk and superior mesenteric and renal arteries. It contains celiac ganglia, the superior mesenteric ganglia and small unnamed ganglionic masses. Branches of the plexus extend along the adjacent artery. (Plexus means network or tangle) (solar refers to the radiating away from the center like light does from the sun.)
> 
> This net work will be very difficult to access from the outside because it is deep in our abdomen. Extreme focal blunt force injury should be needed to actually injure this plexus.
> 
> Colloquial use of "Solar Plexus" refers to the soft spot in the central upper abdomen. Strikes here may cause dyspnea and nausea. I can find no convincing proof that strikes here cause diaphragmatic paralysis and suspect that the dyspnea results from guarding against pain and not using the diaphragm to breathe. In fact if I have a student balled up after such a strike getting them to stretch upright and breathe with their belly (actually with their diaphragm) usually solves the problem. The nausea probably is secondary to direct stomache trauma especially if the stomache is still full.
> 
> Rib injuries are discussed well above but are probably separate from the SolarPlexus discussion. The Xyphoid is tough and it would probably take a high velocity piece of lead to shatter it and send it into the Plexus.
> 
> Hope this is helpful.
> 
> Jeff M.D.,
> Family Practice
> Just a simple country doctor but as county coroner get more than my share of oportunities to view the results of trauma.


 
Nice post! In many perspectives 

I'd agree, however I would also argue that it's not that hard to seriously injure the solar plexus region. For example a Motor Vehicle Accident could cause serious life threatening damage to the region, or if you were to be hit in the area, could cause serious life threatening damage. The Solar Plexus region truly is an easy area to injure and with not alot of effort. But that's up for debate I guess!


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## K-man

Indie12 said:


> All of your important organs (minus the brain and heart) are located in your solar plexus, and are vulnerable to injury very easily. There are millions of nerve connections running through your solar plexus which act as a 'warning' system when your hit. Your ribs, will to a point protect some of the organs, but the intestines and fat around your organs are what protects those vital areas.
> 
> -EMS Provider!


 
Mmm! I don't think so. What organ do you think is 'in your solar plexus'?



> The *celiac plexus*, also known as the *solar plexus*, is a complex network of nerves (a plexus) located in the abdomen, where the celiac trunk. superior mesenteric artery, and renal arteries branch from the abdominal aorta. It is in back of the stomach and the omental bursa, and in front of the crura of the diaphragm, on the level of the first lumbar vertebra, L1.
> The plexus is formed (in part) by the greater and lesser splanchnic nerves of both sides, and also parts of the right vagus nerve.
> The celiac plexus proper consists of the celiac ganglia with a network of interconnecting fibers. The aorticorenal ganglia are often considered to be part of the celiac ganglia, and thus, part of the plexus.


 
The term 'solar plexus' is colloquially used to describe the area just below the xiphoid process, but this is not technically correct. To suggest that, "all of your important organs (minus the brain and heart) are located in your solar plexus", is just plain wrong. Most of the organs are located in the thoracic and abdominal cavities. I would also question whether the brain is an 'organ'. I prefer to think that it is the brain that controls the functioning or the organs. It is mainly these nerves that run through the solar plexus.

This might sound pedantic but if we are trying to have a technical discussion we have to start from a factual base. :asian:


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