# Punches vs Open hand to face for self defense.



## Kenlee25

Firstly I'd like to apologize for asking so many questions. I seem to have hit a bit of an inquisitive stage this week. 

There are pros and cons to both techniques, for example in the hands of a martial artist who knows how to strike the punch can be quite deadly, but just the same if those fragile knuckles ( assuming one has not endured iron palm training ) collide with the skull, it will cause damage or even break your hand.

Palm strikes are safer but also slower and have less range. That are also unnatural to most people. 

Obviously there are situations where one is more effective than the other. For example if you were trying to deescalate a conflict but your opponent swung on you anyway, smashing your palm into their face is quite a simple and natural task. 

But what of after? If the fight is prolonged more than those first few seconds of your initial reaction. 

One thing I have noticed is that in most forms/katas I have see/performed, punches are usually aimed towards the imaginary enemies torso area. Some go towards the face yes, but the stance and motion of the punch usually is striking towards the body. Does that mean anything?

Appreciate your thoughts.


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## Touch Of Death

I like the open palm stuff, simply, because it is safer. I would sooner teach a woman to do a step-through elbow to the face, than spend years toughening her hand for a solid right cross.


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## clfsean

Kenlee25 said:


> Firstly I'd like to apologize for asking so many questions. I seem to have hit a bit of an inquisitive stage this week.



Better than some first weeks seen in these parts, but so far nothing that bad... :bangahead:



Kenlee25 said:


> There are pros and cons to both techniques, for example in the hands of a martial artist who knows how to strike the punch can be quite deadly, but just the same if those fragile knuckles ( assuming one has not endured iron palm training ) collide with the skull, it will cause damage or even break your hand.



Just like those same knuckles/hand will if they collide with anything hard/solid unintentionally or intentionally. And iron palm doesn't do much for the joints themselves. Iron Palm is for the hand "en masse", specifically targeting the palm for ... wait... PALM STRIKES. That's a whole topic by itself.



Kenlee25 said:


> Palm strikes are safer but also slower and have less range. That are also unnatural to most people.



Slower & less range... hmmm... how do you figure? Also unnatural... wowser... Do you normally walk around with your hand balled (not clenched) into a fist or is your hand relaxed & opened? 



Kenlee25 said:


> Obviously there are situations where one is more effective than the other. For example if you were trying to deescalate a conflict but your opponent swung on you anyway, smashing your palm into their face is quite a simple and natural task.



Yep... just like if not trying to calm things down & just knocking the crap outta somebody, an open hand goes a long ways & has more options than a closed one, for both a starting position & ending position.



Kenlee25 said:


> But what of after? If the fight is prolonged more than those first few seconds of your initial reaction.



It's over?? One way or the other?



Kenlee25 said:


> One thing I have noticed is that in most forms/katas I have see/performed, punches are usually aimed towards the imaginary enemies torso area. Some go towards the face yes, but the stance and motion of the punch usually is striking towards the body. Does that mean anything?



Yeah it does, but it all depends on your training & background. I mean I could sit & give you a discourse on the use of palms in long fist styled palm usage, but unless you're doing it or have experience with it... you'd have better luck with a Greek menu written in Greek.



Kenlee25 said:


> Appreciate your thoughts.



You say that now... bwahahahahaah :s2:


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## Sukerkin

Nothing wrong with asking questions, *Kenlee* - that's how we learn after all :tup:

As to the target of punches, that really depends upon the art and what it's kata are trying to impart to the student.  In my Lau Gar days, I was trained in punches of various sorts to all manner of target locations.  The first punches that you learn are indeed towards the centre of mass of the opponent but they are merely the introduction to the mechanics of punching effectively; after that initial period the methods and targets open up considerably.


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## Dirty Dog

Kenlee25 said:


> Firstly I'd like to apologize for asking so many questions. I seem to have hit a bit of an inquisitive stage this week.



I don't think you'll find anybody here who objects to questions being asked...



Kenlee25 said:


> There are pros and cons to both techniques, for example in the hands of a martial artist who knows how to strike the punch can be quite deadly, but just the same if those fragile knuckles ( assuming one has not endured iron palm training ) collide with the skull, it will cause damage or even break your hand.



Knuckles are not particularly fragile, when the punch is properly exectuted. If you're worried about your knuckles, I'd suggest spending a lot of time ensuring proper punching technique, primarily on a good heavy bag. In my opinion, a BOB is even better, since punching him feels more like punching a person.



Kenlee25 said:


> Palm strikes are safer but also slower and have less range. That are also unnatural to most people.



I disagree with every single thing you say here. Properly executed strikes are properly executed strikes. If I hit you with my fist, I'm no more at risk of injury than if I hit you with the palmheel. Nor will there be any difference in speed. Range? OK, so my fist is about 2-2.5" longer. I really don't see that as significant, since body position and movement during the strike can easily compensate for that. And I don't see them as "unnatural" either. Put a board across a couple cinder blocks and ask people to hit it. I put it to you that as many will use a palmheel as a punch.



Kenlee25 said:


> Obviously there are situations where one is more effective than the other.



I don't think that is obvious at all. Not in the least.



Kenlee25 said:


> For example if you were trying to deescalate a conflict but your opponent swung on you anyway, smashing your palm into their face is quite a simple and natural task./
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that the strike you just said was unnatural? Make up your mind...
> If I am trying to deescalate the situation, I'm not going to hit him in the face with anything. I'm going to block (probably with an open hand, since that gives me the opportunity to turn his swing into means of controlling him) and evade.
> 
> 
> 
> Kenlee25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But what of after? If the fight is prolonged more than those first few seconds of your initial reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to use both closed and open hands, as well as my feet, elbows and knees in whatever manner seems most expedient at that time and under those specific circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> Kenlee25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One thing I have noticed is that in most forms/katas I have see/performed, punches are usually aimed towards the imaginary enemies torso area. Some go towards the face yes, but the stance and motion of the punch usually is striking towards the body. Does that mean anything?
> 
> Appreciate your thoughts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think it means you need a better understanding of what forms teach.  Forms teach stances, movement, balance, power, even some useful combinations... they don't teach you were to strike. Although the simplest forms can be taught as a 'choreographed fight', this becomes progressively less true as you progress.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## K-man

Something else to keep in mind is that prior to the karate going into the Okinawan schools in the early 1900s, karate or Te was mostly open hand. (Hands were closed to protect kids hands and prevent accidents.) Many of the strikes were with the sides of the hands or the tips of the fingers. My preferred strike to the face would have to be teisho (palm heel) as it fits most shapes of the target and doesn't bounce off. Probably equal favourite would be shuto or knife hand. Does a lot of damage with little risk to your own hand.

Striking to the torso I prefer a knuckle strike. Once again, I would question the origins of the flat punch that you mostly see.


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## David43515

Questions are always welcome. And even the most experienced people here ask more than they sit back and pontificate. It`s by bringing these things up for discussion that we all learn more.

That being said, Proper punching technique protects the knuckles during a punch....but proper punching isn`t natural and it has to be trained over a long period so that full power can be delivered into an opponant. Lots of people THINK they`re hitting full power. What they`re doing is using their full EFFORT, but because their technique is poor the impact potential is bled off before it transferrs into the opponant. But this talk isn`t about proper punching, it`s about palms vs fists.
I like both, but I use open hands more often because it`s easier to transission into grabs (which make the next strike more effective) and throws. I`ve never found open hand strikes to be slower than fists, just the opposite. Since my arm is more relaxed with the hand open it travels faster. Yes, the range is slightly less, but not significantly so. And because I`m a bigger guy I usually only use strikes in the first instance of an altercation anyway. After that I close to shorter range and depend on knees, elbows, grappling, and such instead of longe range punching. So the choice of fist or open hand isn`t really an either-or scenario in my opinion.

I do think that some type of regular hand conditioning is a HUGE help with both types of strikes though. Whether it`s as simple as working your strikes on the heavybag, or more traditional hand conditioning meathods. You need to build muscle memory to strike well, you need to create hand-eye-coordination, and learn to read distance to your target so you can strike properly. Of the 3 , I think the last one is the most important part of bagwork, and one very few people ever talk about.


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## Cyriacus

I prefer Closed Fist. It comes more naturally, and I feel that trying to relearn the archetype of ones Hand would be a bit odd.



Kenlee25 said:


> Firstly I'd like to apologize for asking so many questions. I seem to have hit a bit of an inquisitive stage this week.
> 
> There are pros and cons to both techniques, for example in the hands of a martial artist who knows how to strike the punch can be quite deadly, but just the same if those fragile knuckles ( assuming one has not endured iron palm training ) collide with the skull, it will cause damage or even break your hand.
> *
> Ive hit someone in the forehead in My defense once. I did not injure my hand, and I was untrained. Ive also seen various altercations and fistfights. Let Me put it this way: I didnt know about the whole "Fragile Knuckles" thing until I started browsing Martialtalk.
> *
> Palm strikes are safer but also slower and have less range. That are also unnatural to most people.
> 
> *Theyre no slower than a Punch, to Me. And Range is absurd. Do You seriously hit people at the FULL extention of Your Arm? No, You hit them before then.*
> 
> Obviously there are situations where one is more effective than the other. For example if you were trying to deescalate a conflict but your opponent swung on you anyway, smashing your palm into their face is quite a simple and natural task.
> 
> *Sos going ballistic with a barrage of Punches.*
> 
> But what of after? If the fight is prolonged more than those first few seconds of your initial reaction.
> 
> *Not much difference, really.*
> 
> One thing I have noticed is that in most forms/katas I have see/performed, punches are usually aimed towards the imaginary enemies torso area. Some go towards the face yes, but the stance and motion of the punch usually is striking towards the body. Does that mean anything?
> 
> *Ribs break easier than skulls.*
> 
> Appreciate your thoughts.


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## Kenlee25

Kenlee25 said:


> For example if you were trying to deescalate a conflict but your opponent swung on you anyway, smashing your palm into their face is quite a simple and natural task./
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that the strike you just said was unnatural? Make up your mind...
> If I am trying to deescalate the situation, I'm not going to hit him in the face with anything. I'm going to block (probably with an open hand, since that gives me the opportunity to turn his swing into means of controlling him) and evade.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to use both closed and open hands, as well as my feet, elbows and knees in whatever manner seems most expedient at that time and under those specific circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it means you need a better understanding of what forms teach.  Forms teach stances, movement, balance, power, even some useful combinations... they don't teach you were to strike. Although the simplest forms can be taught as a 'choreographed fight', this becomes progressively less true as you progress.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry let me embellish on my point. I said that palms are unnatural to most people because since we were children, we have seen people fight by punching people. We have visualized it in movies, watched boxing matches, and generally we see a lot more punching than palms. So naturally when faced with a situation where reaction is encouraged, our brains first instinct will tell us to punch rather than something else. We must train our bodies to think in different ways, and that is why I said the palm strike isn't as natural, because it is different that what we are used too. It's more a matter of the mind and less a matter of the body.
> 
> Also when I was speaking of deescalating and the guy took a swing, i mean exactly as you said. You would block or parry and maybe then go in with your own strike. With your hands already in the palm strike position ( basically ) in your deescalating stance, all you must do is push the hand forward and apply torque ( okay that is not all you must do, but you get the point i am trying to make ).
> 
> the one about palm heel speed is mostly for me. I can punch fast than I can palm, but I guess that's just me.
> 
> hope that clears that part up.
Click to expand...


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## Bill Mattocks

If you don't throw an Isshin-Ryu punch, you may hurt your hand.  The Isshin-Ryu punch is superior to all others and if you execute it properly, you won't hurt your hand.  We throw to the body, the head, or anywhere else a punch fits.  Hips are nice, as are liver, kidney, and spleen shots.  Palm strikes are fine as well, but I would not execute one to avoid hurting my hand because I won't hurt my hand by punching.  You also have the ridge hand inside and outside, shuto and haito, not to mention the nukite thrust.  Then there's ichi knuckle and various kinds of interesting hand formations that can do incredible damage to your opponent without exposing your hand to injury.

If you really want to play it safe, you can try the old man fist.  You can't hurt your hand with that.  Simple to do.  Make a fist, vertically oriented.  Now, open the fist enough to extend the index finger along the base of the palm/thumb, pointing back at the wrist, instead of curled in like the rest.  Then wrap your thumb around that index finger.  Notice your index finger knuckle is now considerably set back from the others.  Go ahead and hit a few things to get a feel for it.  Phone books are good.  You should notice you can hit with incredible power and feel nothing in terms of pressure on your knuckles.  Good stuff.


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## seasoned

K-man said:


> Something else to keep in mind is that prior to the karate going into the Okinawan schools in the early 1900s, karate or Te was mostly open hand. (Hands were closed to protect kids hands and prevent accidents.) Many of the strikes were with the sides of the hands or the tips of the fingers. *My preferred strike to the face would have to be teisho (palm heel) as it fits most shapes of the target and doesn't bounce off.* Probably equal favourite would be shuto or knife hand. Does a lot of damage with little risk to your own hand.
> 
> Striking to the torso I prefer a knuckle strike. Once again, I would question the origins of the flat punch that you mostly see.


I like the palm heel also. Good close in strike with good power. Once the palm hits the fingers drop right into the eyes.


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## onthechin

God this is stupid. If anyone here actually KNEW how to fight and actually got into a fight (heaven forbid) you'd know that the ol palm vs fist thing goes out the window. In a real fight you are trying to hit the other guy and fear for your safety...you dont have the luxury of choosing between palm or fist.


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## Cyriacus

onthechin said:


> God this is stupid. If anyone here actually KNEW how to fight and actually got into a fight (heaven forbid) you'd know that the ol palm vs fist thing goes out the window. In a real fight you are trying to hit the other guy and fear for your safety...you dont have the luxury of choosing between palm or fist.



Well, if someone trains the living crap out of using Palms, they probably will.

...Once the Adrenalin wears off. And the Engagement slows down.
I think its important to be able to do Palms, but the circumstance in which Youd be able to actually tell Yourself to do it is a different story.
What was it during WW2? Chin Jabbing or something?


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## simplewc101

onthechin said:


> God this is stupid. If anyone here actually KNEW how to fight and actually got into a fight (heaven forbid) you'd know that the ol palm vs fist thing goes out the window. In a real fight you are trying to hit the other guy and fear for your safety...you dont have the luxury of choosing between palm or fist.



by your logic, why train martial arts at all since it just goes out the window and you dont have the luxury of choosing?
you train so it's instinct. and so you can JUST DO IT.
Any fist to the hard part of the skull can cause injury to your fist. You might hurt him bad, but you might hurt yourself as well. You might not, and you also might hit him in the face where you intended and do maximum damage. 
What you train is what you do.


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## seasoned

onthechin said:


> God this is stupid. If anyone here actually KNEW how to fight and actually got into a fight (heaven forbid) you'd know that the ol palm vs fist thing goes out the window. In a real fight you are trying to hit the other guy and fear for your safety..._*you dont have the luxury of choosing between palm or fist*_.


There is a time and a place for every technique, if not, take up boxing and just punch. 

Long Distance: legs
Mid Range: Low kicks, punches
close Range: knees, elbows, grabs, open hand strikes, take downs.

You are correct, there is no choosing, your training will dictate the techniques which you will use, and in the heat of battle, they just happen.


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## clfsean

Bill Mattocks said:


> If you don't throw an Isshin-Ryu punch, you may hurt your hand.  The Isshin-Ryu punch is superior to all others and if you execute it properly, you won't hurt your hand.  We throw to the body, the head, or anywhere else a punch fits.  Hips are nice, as are liver, kidney, and spleen shots.  Palm strikes are fine as well, but I would not execute one to avoid hurting my hand because I won't hurt my hand by punching.  You also have the ridge hand inside and outside, shuto and haito, not to mention the nukite thrust.  Then there's ichi knuckle and various kinds of interesting hand formations that can do incredible damage to your opponent without exposing your hand to injury.
> 
> If you really want to play it safe, you can try the old man fist.  You can't hurt your hand with that.  Simple to do.  Make a fist, vertically oriented.  Now, open the fist enough to extend the index finger along the base of the palm/thumb, pointing back at the wrist, instead of curled in like the rest.  Then wrap your thumb around that index finger.  Notice your index finger knuckle is now considerably set back from the others.  Go ahead and hit a few things to get a feel for it.  Phone books are good.  You should notice you can hit with incredible power and feel nothing in terms of pressure on your knuckles.  Good stuff.



BWAHAHAHAHAHAA.... you so funneh.... *ahem*


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## clfsean

onthechin said:


> God this is stupid. If anyone here actually KNEW how to fight and actually got into a fight (heaven forbid) you'd know that the ol palm vs fist thing goes out the window. In a real fight you are trying to hit the other guy and fear for your safety...you dont have the luxury of choosing between palm or fist.



mmmmmmmmmmmmmmkkkkkkkkkkaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy... So you're going to enlighten those of us who haven't been in a fight in the last week or so what we're doing wrong? Just checking... the few couple times I have been, I've come out pretty ok.


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## MJS

Kenlee25 said:


> Firstly I'd like to apologize for asking so many questions. I seem to have hit a bit of an inquisitive stage this week.
> 
> There are pros and cons to both techniques, for example in the hands of a martial artist who knows how to strike the punch can be quite deadly, but just the same if those fragile knuckles ( assuming one has not endured iron palm training ) collide with the skull, it will cause damage or even break your hand.
> 
> Palm strikes are safer but also slower and have less range. That are also unnatural to most people.
> 
> Obviously there are situations where one is more effective than the other. For example if you were trying to deescalate a conflict but your opponent swung on you anyway, smashing your palm into their face is quite a simple and natural task.
> 
> But what of after? If the fight is prolonged more than those first few seconds of your initial reaction.
> 
> One thing I have noticed is that in most forms/katas I have see/performed, punches are usually aimed towards the imaginary enemies torso area. Some go towards the face yes, but the stance and motion of the punch usually is striking towards the body. Does that mean anything?
> 
> Appreciate your thoughts.



The usual thought is to hit a soft target with a hard one, and a hard target with a soft strike.  IMHO, I think that both open and closed hand strikes, have their place.  Blasting someone in the face with a palm strike or a an open hand strike to the groin is also very effective.  From a SD point of view, I like the use of open hands, especially during the initial attempt at defusing the situation verbally.  Hands up, palms open, in a non-threatening manner, is an excellent pre-emptive strike.  It doesnt look threatening, yet its still defensive, should you need to fire off a shot or block an incoming one.  Having hands up, fists clenched isn't giving that impression to the other guy.  

But a nice hard body shot with a closed fist is also pretty effective.  Of course, while its not necessarily a punch, the use of a hammerfist is also another option to a punch.


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## MJS

onthechin said:


> God this is stupid. If anyone here actually KNEW how to fight and actually got into a fight (heaven forbid) you'd know that the ol palm vs fist thing goes out the window. In a real fight you are trying to hit the other guy and fear for your safety...you dont have the luxury of choosing between palm or fist.



So the thread should be closed because you, the expert says so?  If its stupid, why are you here posting, if you don't have anything useful to add?  Reading your post, implies that people aren't going to be thinking or be capable of thinking clearly, which means they're just going to be swinging wildly.  IMO, that isn't wise.  Personally, environment and target availability will dictate what we can/can't do.  Of course, if we were seriously training, we'd be putting ourselves thru some scenario training.


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## Bill Mattocks

MJS said:


> But a nice hard body shot with a closed fist is also pretty effective.  Of course, while its not necessarily a punch, the use of a hammerfist is also another option to a punch.



Good one.  And now that I think about it, let's not forget the basic slap.  Very useful for a variety of things, not least of which is ending a fight through humiliation.


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## clfsean

Bill Mattocks said:


> Good one.  And now that I think about it, let's not forget the basic slap.  Very useful for a variety of things, not least of which is ending a fight through humiliation.



Truth enough with that. A nice hard open handed slap across the face is a nice starter or stopper. As a starter you have as much of a psychological pause button as much as a first strike. It's a great way to start things & a great opener. Move it back from the face a smidge & into the jaw/ear area... nice love tap there. Not to mention the concussive impact that the open hand carries...


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## seasoned

A slap with focus is much more then a love tap. And as mentioned, it is a great opener with hands up palms out. Not to be underestimated. A slap is with finger tips, a focused open hand strike involves the whole hand.................


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## mook jong man

A palm strike can be more powerful than a punch , mainly because there is one less joint for the force to be transmitted through , much like an elbow strike it is closer to the power source.
With the punch there will generally be some leakage of force due to a slight buckling of the wrist on impact.

In Wing Chun palm striking we use a slightly cup shaped hand formation , not only because it fits nicely over chins , jawlines etc but it helps to concentrate the force into a smaller surface area.

We use a few different types of palm strike , the common vertical palm strike , but we also use a side palm , a 45 degree palm , double palm strike , palm up - edge of the hand palm strikes that attack the side of the neck and underneath the side of the jaw.

Also an exotic one called Po Pai , that is a double palm strike with one hand vertical pointing upwards and the other directly beneath it vertically pointing downwards with the force directed slightly away from each other  , supposedly designed to spread the organs apart and cause internal damage.
But that is one that requires not only immense force , but also a lot of wrist flexibility due to the bottom palm facing downwards.


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## Bill Mattocks

seasoned said:


> A slap with focus is much more then a love tap. And as mentioned, it is a great opener with hands up palms out. Not to be underestimated. A slap is with finger tips, a focused open hand strike involves the whole hand.................



I was also considering the ear ringer (box the ears or one ear) and the open-hand soft-block techniques which hurt like the dickens and absolutely humiliate as well.  There's not much more embarrassing for a tough guy, I think, than to have their hardest punches slapped out of the air and in a way which makes their arm numb and useless as well.  Also done from a hands-up position.  When our sensei is demonstrating, he has his uke throw as hard as possible, like real-life hard and fast, right towards his face.  The harder one throws, the more useless one's arm becomes the moment he dead-hands it across the bicep of the incoming punch.  Awesome mechanics.  I can't quite do it, yet, but it's on my list of objectives, because it is devastating.  It's great because it is so clearly defensive and yet at the same time such a fight-ender.  You can't fight when you can't life your arm.


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## clfsean

mook jong man said:


> A palm strike can be more powerful than a punch , mainly because there is one less joint for the force to be transmitted through , much like an elbow strike it is closer to the power source.
> With the punch there will generally be some leakage of force due to a slight buckling of the wrist on impact.
> 
> In Wing Chun palm striking we use a slightly cup shaped hand formation , not only because it fits nicely over chins , jawlines etc but it helps to concentrate the force into a smaller surface area.
> 
> We use a few different types of palm strike , the common vertical palm strike , but we also use a side palm , a 45 degree palm , double palm strike , palm up - edge of the hand palm strikes that attack the side of the neck and underneath the side of the jaw.
> 
> Also an exotic one called Po Pai , that is a double palm strike with one hand vertical pointing upwards and the other directly beneath it vertically pointing downwards with the force directed slightly away from each other  , supposedly designed to spread the organs apart and cause internal damage.
> But that is one that requires not only immense force , but also a lot of wrist flexibility due to the bottom palm facing downwards.



Yep... We use a couple of additional ones in CLF but all the ones you mentioned we absolutely use. The last one you mention (Po Pai) we dont use to hit with, but we could if we need to. We call it Dip Jeurng (Butterfly Palm).


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## mook jong man

clfsean said:


> Yep... We use a couple of additional ones in CLF but all the ones you mentioned we absolutely use. The last one you mention (Po Pai) we dont use to hit with, but we could if we need to. We call it Dip Jeurng (Butterfly Palm).



In the wooden dummy form here you see pretty much all of them , also the Po Pai that I mentioned.

[video=youtube_share;w0pudWjTNNk]http://youtu.be/w0pudWjTNNk[/video]


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## MJS

Bill Mattocks said:


> I was also considering the ear ringer (box the ears or one ear) and the open-hand soft-block techniques which hurt like the dickens and absolutely humiliate as well. There's not much more embarrassing for a tough guy, I think, than to have their hardest punches slapped out of the air and in a way which makes their arm numb and useless as well. Also done from a hands-up position. When our sensei is demonstrating, he has his uke throw as hard as possible, like real-life hard and fast, right towards his face. The harder one throws, the more useless one's arm becomes the moment he dead-hands it across the bicep of the incoming punch. Awesome mechanics. I can't quite do it, yet, but it's on my list of objectives, because it is devastating. It's great because it is so clearly defensive and yet at the same time such a fight-ender. You can't fight when you can't life your arm.



And I"m sure everyone is raising their hand when he asks for an uke..lol.    Or if he just calls on someone, they're probably thinking, "Well, there goes the use of my arm for the rest of the night." 

But yes, I like the idea of the ear slap.


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## Bill Mattocks

MJS said:


> And I"m sure everyone is raising their hand when he asks for an uke..lol.    Or if he just calls on someone, they're probably thinking, "Well, there goes the use of my arm for the rest of the night."



What I especially love is saying "I didn't quite get that sensei, can you show us again?"  

But then we get to practice it on each other (a bit less power and speed, but still hard enough to get the general idea), so we all get a taste anyway.



> But yes, I like the idea of the ear slap.



That's one of those that you can't practice in the dojo, unfortunately.  But it's disorienting as I understand it.


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## zDom

Early in my training, I remember preferring the palm strike: I could generate more power that my wrists could stand in punching position while training on heavy bag (unwrapped wrists.. I've never trained heavy bag with supported wrists).

Later, as I trained wrist strength and gained more power through hips and body weight shifting, I found my palm sinking far enough into the bag that it was uncomfortably bending my wrist backward. Since then I have preferred to train punches on the bag as a fist sinks in to the bag with no discomfort.

I am only referring to straight line punching, by the way. And I do regularly train all my striking on a bag &#8212; some palm strikes, some knifehands, some ridgehands ... but I like seeing how hard I can hit that bag without my wrists folding.

The best self defense option for you, I think, would be the techniques you feel most comfortable and confident with. But remember that could change with time and training.


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## Dirty Dog

onthechin said:


> God this is stupid. If anyone here actually KNEW how to fight and actually got into a fight (heaven forbid) you'd know that the ol palm vs fist thing goes out the window. In a real fight you are trying to hit the other guy and fear for your safety...you dont have the luxury of choosing between palm or fist.



View attachment 16208


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## chinto

Kenlee25 said:


> Firstly I'd like to apologize for asking so many questions. I seem to have hit a bit of an inquisitive stage this week.
> 
> There are pros and cons to both techniques, for example in the hands of a martial artist who knows how to strike the punch can be quite deadly, but just the same if those fragile knuckles ( assuming one has not endured iron palm training ) collide with the skull, it will cause damage or even break your hand.
> 
> Palm strikes are safer but also slower and have less range. That are also unnatural to most people.
> 
> Obviously there are situations where one is more effective than the other. For example if you were trying to deescalate a conflict but your opponent swung on you anyway, smashing your palm into their face is quite a simple and natural task.
> 
> But what of after? If the fight is prolonged more than those first few seconds of your initial reaction.
> 
> One thing I have noticed is that in most forms/katas I have see/performed, punches are usually aimed towards the imaginary enemies torso area. Some go towards the face yes, but the stance and motion of the punch usually is striking towards the body. Does that mean anything?
> 
> Appreciate your thoughts.




Both strikes work, if you work the makawara you are much less likely to brake your knuckles or metatarsals. That said, a good palm shot will often and a fight, the Okinawans targeted vitals and ribs more then the head with empty hand as you can fight with a lot of damage to the face and head, ribs brake easier and if you can not breath you can not fight... and well vitals destroyed and your dead. ( ribs were often fatal back in the day before definitive medical care too.)  So in answer I would say both are great. a palm to the chin will often end a fight instantly.... so I would say go with what your system teaches till you are say a brown belt or so, but if in a self defense situation, use what ever feels right..


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## chinto

David43515 said:


> Questions are always welcome. And even the most experienced people here ask more than they sit back and pontificate. It`s by bringing these things up for discussion that we all learn more.
> 
> That being said, Proper punching technique protects the knuckles during a punch....but proper punching isn`t natural and it has to be trained over a long period so that full power can be delivered into an opponant. Lots of people THINK they`re hitting full power. What they`re doing is using their full EFFORT, but because their technique is poor the impact potential is bled off before it transferrs into the opponant. But this talk isn`t about proper punching, it`s about palms vs fists.
> I like both, but I use open hands more often because it`s easier to transission into grabs (which make the next strike more effective) and throws. I`ve never found open hand strikes to be slower than fists, just the opposite. Since my arm is more relaxed with the hand open it travels faster. Yes, the range is slightly less, but not significantly so. And because I`m a bigger guy I usually only use strikes in the first instance of an altercation anyway. After that I close to shorter range and depend on knees, elbows, grappling, and such instead of longe range punching. So the choice of fist or open hand isn`t really an either-or scenario in my opinion.
> 
> I do think that some type of regular hand conditioning is a HUGE help with both types of strikes though. Whether it`s as simple as working your strikes on the heavybag, or more traditional hand conditioning meathods. You need to build muscle memory to strike well, you need to create hand-eye-coordination, and learn to read distance to your target so you can strike properly. Of the 3 , I think the last one is the most important part of bagwork, and one very few people ever talk about.



I would also suggest you get some training from a QUALIFIED instructor on how to use a Makawara. That will help harden the bones, increase your focus and really make your alinement on your wrist improve vastly quickly!


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## Dirty Dog

chinto said:


> Both strikes work, if you work the makawara you are much less likely to brake your knuckles or metatarsals. That said, a good palm shot will often and a fight, the Okinawans targeted vitals and ribs more then the head with empty hand as you can fight with a lot of damage to the face and head, ribs brake easier and if you can not breath you can not fight... and well vitals destroyed and your dead. ( ribs were often fatal back in the day before definitive medical care too.)  So in answer I would say both are great. a palm to the chin will often end a fight instantly.... so I would say go with what your system teaches till you are say a brown belt or so, but if in a self defense situation, use what ever feels right..



Metatarsals are in the feet. And if you brake them, there certainly won't be much impact....


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## seasoned

Anybody familiar with Tensho (turning palm). Number 7 out of 12 Okinawan GoJu kata. Great kata.


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## Zenjael

I've always felt anytime you could punch, a palm strike is just as sufficient. Honestly, I don't think I can break a cinder-block with my fist, but I have a palm. I'd feel safer with the former to keep serious harm from happening to a person... but if necessary I believe a palm can execute far more force in a strike than a fist, because the durability constraints are significantly less. 

You have less fear of hurting your hand... but greater of harming the other. Knowing when it is appropriate, and how much force, is to know when to place the strike at its proper place.


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## Buka

I know folks who slap similar to a boxing left hook. Their slaps could knock the bejesus out of you. Palms, punches, ridge hands etc, thrown properly, all hurt a whole bunch. I'll bet if all of us here spent a week together in a Dojo, the true power strike of many of us would be completely different. And I don't think that's dependent on what styles we might have studied, I think it comes from what we've all personally developed over a jillion hours of training.

My face has never actually met a strike that it liked. Neither has my body.


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## seasoned

seasoned said:


> Anybody familiar with Tensho (turning palm). Number 7 out of 12 Okinawan GoJu kata. Great kata.


I mention this because it is an advanced kata pertaining to open hand techniques.


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## seasoned

Zenjael said:


> I've always felt anytime you could punch, a palm strike is just as sufficient. Honestly, I don't think I can break a cinder-block with my fist, but I have a palm. _*I'd feel safer with the former to keep serious harm from happening to a person... *_but if necessary I believe a palm can execute far more force in a strike than a fist, because the durability constraints are significantly less.
> 
> You have less fear of hurting your hand... but greater of harming the other. Knowing when it is appropriate, and how much force, is to know when to place the strike at its proper place.


Great point. Knuckles cut, and blood is bad press. But, that heavy open hand strike to the side of the head will make you beg for a punch.


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## Zenjael

> Great point. Knuckles cut, and blood is bad press. But, that heavy open  hand strike to the side of the head will make you beg for a punch.



Execellent point. I believe this is one teacher I said, over and over like a mantra, 'If your punch doesn't put them down in the first strike... you aren't doing enough push-ups.' 

I suspect there was a deeper message of, don't escalate unless prepared to.


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## frank raud

Zenjael said:


> Execellent point. I believe this is one teacher I said, over and over like a mantra, 'If your punch doesn't put them down in the first strike... you aren't doing enough push-ups.'
> 
> I suspect there was a deeper message of, don't escalate unless prepared to.



You develop most of your power in a punch by doing pushups?


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## seasoned

There are a number of way to develop punching power, but hitting something over time is the best. Just my 2 cents...........


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## Buka

I believe the only way to get punching power in hitting people, is by hitting people. Everything else helps in the mechanics of punching, but the application itself is the only way it ain't a crap shoot. Beside actual field testing, it calls for sparring of all kinds, especially hard sparring against those that are on a level you wish to reach.


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## K-man

I don't think it's a matter of preferring open hand because punching might damage something.  I teach a technique from CMA called "cotton fist". The hand is relaxed but when it hits the torso it has a kick like a mule because the weight of your body and the weight of your arm is behind it. Because the arm is relaxed, it is also fast. Anyone who has trained with Taira Sensei from Okinawa will know that his hand is relaxed until the last fraction of a second to make the most of the energy generated from the hips. His punches are awesome. We practice 'heavy hands' and broken timing which produces very effective open hand techniques.

Sparring gives the opportunity to test all our skills and certainly when it comes to strikes we need to be able to gauge the distance to be able to deliver a technique and feel what it's like to hit hard. Sparring where the punches are pulled doesn't allow that to happen. 

Ultimately the choice is a personal preference, as has been seen from the posts so far. I believe punches or open hand can be equally effective if delivered properly. If i had a free shot I might well punch ... might. The OP said 'face' so for me, on balance, I'll stick to the open hand.


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## Zenjael

> You develop most of your power in a punch by doing pushups?



Negative. There was a similar mantra that if you couldn't take a punch to the stomach, do more crunches. It wasn't so much to emphasize doing more push-ups (In an hour you could expect to do as many as 200, in unison. That last part was stressed... or group start-over.) but moreso that if you couldn't do what you intended, you needed to work more at it. A lot of the things said had multiple meanings, both literal and metaphorical.



> I believe the only way to get punching power in hitting people, is by  hitting people. Everything else helps in the mechanics of punching, but  the application itself is the only way it ain't a crap shoot. Beside  actual field testing, it calls for sparring of all kinds, especially  hard sparring against those that are on a level you wish to reach.



I agree, but I think this is more useful toward getting your hits IN, as opposed to doing damage. A lot of internal martial artists rarely get to actually effectuate what they've learned, because of great probability of seriously harming your fellow partner... but when the time comes, they certainly know how to execute.



> will know that his hand is relaxed until the last fraction of a second  to make the most of the energy generated from the hips. His punches are  awesome. We practice 'heavy hands' and broken timing which produces very  effective open hand techniques.



If you want to combine speed with power, in punching, this is important. It gives your hand added torque as well. There is a problem with utilizing this with a palm strike however, though you can mitigate that with rotation of your wrist from the neutral position into the strike. Either way, easier to do with a punch, than a palm I've found.I 

I keep my hands open, almost always. It's rare for me to take a closed fist fighting stance. I only close them for a strike to soft tissue area, throat/neck, temple, etc. I also keep my hands open to generate motion. You'd be amazed how much can be generated into a solid push, and the difference it makes in opening the fingers slightly, and creating drag to add to the push.

It's strange, but I've found a lot of martial arts don't utilize the push, but it really, really works when timed correctly.



> I believe punches or open hand can be equally effective if delivered  properly. If i had a free shot I might well punch ... might. The OP said  'face' so for me, on balance, I'll stick to the open hand.



I follow the rule of thumb, personally, that if I can't break a block of stone with it, chances are I can't a bone. So I don't do it.


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## seasoned

seasoned said:


> Great point. *Knuckles cut, and blood is bad press*. But, that heavy open hand strike to the side of the head will make you beg for a punch.





K-man said:


> *I don't think it's a matter of preferring open hand because punching might damage something*.  I teach a technique from CMA called "cotton fist". The hand is relaxed but when it hits the torso it has a kick like a mule because the weight of your body and the weight of your arm is behind it. Because the arm is relaxed, it is also fast. Anyone who has trained with Taira Sensei from Okinawa will know that his hand is relaxed until the last fraction of a second to make the most of the energy generated from the hips. His punches are awesome. We practice 'heavy hands' and broken timing which produces very effective open hand techniques.
> 
> Sparring gives the opportunity to test all our skills and certainly when it comes to strikes we need to be able to gauge the distance to be able to deliver a technique and feel what it's like to hit hard. Sparring where the punches are pulled doesn't allow that to happen.
> 
> Ultimately the choice is a personal preference, as has been seen from the posts so far. I believe punches or open hand can be equally effective if delivered properly. If i had a free shot I might well punch ... might. The OP said 'face' so for me, on balance, I'll stick to the open hand.


If you're above is referring to my above, I may have personalized my response somewhat. In my personal situation, where I said "blood is bad press" I am reflecting on personal situations i might find myself in where literally, the sight of to much blood could be detrimental to my job description. Open hand could produce the same results without all the mess.....


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## K-man

Zenjael said:


> If you want to combine speed with power, in punching, this is important. It gives your hand added torque as well. *There is a problem with utilising this with a palm strike *however, though you can mitigate that with rotation of your wrist from the neutral position into the strike. Either way, easier to do with a punch, than a palm I've found.


??? Care to elaborate?


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## Zenjael

I tend to find in a fighting stance that when doing a palm strike, whether it be front arm or back arm, I am not satisfied with the torque generated. Half the palms I've found thrown by me, or others, tend to just be generated by pushing the arm forward, as opposed to any actual strike involving pivoting with the wrist to generate more power. A guard stance in Bagua involves the palm being turned outward, warding, so to generate a torque you'd need to first turn the hand (and palm) toward you as you extend, and then once reaching, twist the hand immediately to generate what I'd like to call extra *oomph* to your blow. 

A lot of my blocks are also strikes, and I do a lot of warding with my elbows... so generally generating torque isn't a problem for me, but I've found it easier to do with a closed hand, if just because I'm more used to aligning my hand in that fashion, than I am with the palm already open.

I've been trained largely in closed fists, so re-orienting to an open-hand is a bit of a difficult for me to reorient my natural view of. However, I've switched from closed to open hand as much for practical reasons... as medical. I was a damned fool earlier in life and hit my fist against a lot of things I shouldn't. At 22 I'm already paying the price... but I suppose brutalizing a hand in some aspect might be worth sacrificing to learn patience and self-restraint. I've got a friend not much younger who's constantly breaking things. 

But I digress.

I think no matter what strike you do, you need a pivot on the wrist to generate the torque to get a good strong blow in.


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## K-man

K-man said:


> I don't think it's a matter of preferring open hand because punching might damage something.
> 
> Quote *seasoned *..  If you're referring to my above ...  *Knuckles cut, and blood is bad press*


Sorry Mate. Just my bad use of the English language. What I meant was, Bill was saying if you had the right formation of the fist, then you wouldn't damage your hand by punching a hard target. My response was meant to convey my feeling that I could use either but my preference was for an open hand. 

Biggest problem with a punch to the head is if the opponent ducks and you hit a thick part of the skull you can quite easily fracture a knuckle. I've seen enough of those among my friends to know I don't want one. :asian:


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## Cyriacus

Zenjael said:


> I follow the rule of thumb, personally, that if I can't break a block of stone with it, chances are I can't a bone. So I don't do it.



That more or less verifies My preferring Punches then.
Youre correct.


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## K-man

Zenjael said:


> I think no matter what strike you do, you need a pivot on the wrist to generate the torque to get a good strong blow in.


Most of my open hand strikes involve 'heavy hands'. As such a pivot of the wrist requires tension in the arm that would probably reduce the effectiveness of the strike by at least 50 percent.  Even the small amount of bagua I have studied from Erle Montaigue was more of an explosion of raw energy than a pivot generating torque.


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## MJS

Zenjael said:


> Execellent point. I believe this is one teacher I said, over and over like a mantra, 'If your punch doesn't put them down in the first strike... you aren't doing enough push-ups.'
> 
> I suspect there was a deeper message of, don't escalate unless prepared to.



And this tells me this teacher didn't know what he was talking about, because pushups have nothing to do with putting someone down with 1 strike.  Interestingly enough, at a Arnis seminar a number of years back, my teacher had brought in a few other guys toteach as well.  One of them was Will Higginbotham.  He was expanding on our use of certain strikes in Arnis, fine tuning them, to sure where certain pressure points are.  Obviously hitting those will result in a KO.  He needed an uke for this segment, so I joined him.  Lightly tapped a few spots at the same time...notice I said lightly tapped....and the lights started going out.  These weren't hard hits by any means, but it proves my point...that its the location of the hit, not how hard you hit.  

But lets not turn this thread into another one about you.  We're talking about punches vs open hand strikes.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Zenjael said:


> I tend to find in a fighting stance that when doing a palm strike, whether it be front arm or back arm, I am not satisfied with the torque generated.



You said you were familiar with Isshin-Ryu.  We do not throw a torqued punch, we throw a straight punch with a vertical fist.  It's quite powerful and requires no 'torque'.  So I'm not sure why you think torque is required in punch with either palm or fist.  Kicks are powerful, do you torque them?



> Half the palms I've found thrown by me, or others, tend to just be generated by pushing the arm forward, as opposed to any actual strike involving pivoting with the wrist to generate more power. A guard stance in Bagua involves the palm being turned outward, warding, so to generate a torque you'd need to first turn the hand (and palm) toward you as you extend, and then once reaching, twist the hand immediately to generate what I'd like to call extra *oomph* to your blow.



Torque does not increase 'oomph'.  And if it did, that would be a shame, since that would mean that a torqued punch would generate less power if it hit its target before the complete torqued turn had been completed.



> I think no matter what strike you do, you need a pivot on the wrist to generate the torque to get a good strong blow in.



I disagree.  My sensei has demonstrated (on me) a number of incredibly hard open-hand palm strikes, in a variety of configurations, without twisting or pivoting the wrist at all.  A palm strike can be delivered with great force to the hips or other balance points, the ribs, the side of the face, and the major internal organs without any need for any of these strange torquing movements of which you speak.  If you had been hit by one, you would drop that line of reasoning quickly, as you'd see it is completely untrue.


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## Bill Mattocks

K-man said:


> Sorry Mate. Just my bad use of the English language. What I meant was, Bill was saying if you had the right formation of the fist, then you wouldn't damage your hand by punching a hard target. My response was meant to convey my feeling that I could use either but my preference was for an open hand.



As you know, I was joking with my insistence that everyone punch the Isshin-Ryu way.  However, there are a variety of fist formations, and some of them are quite safe (for the puncher) to hit with.  I've used the 'old man fist' (which is not Isshin-Ryu, by the way) and it does work.  It feels a bit odd to make a fist that way, but I do find it lets me hit harder without the otherwise-required slight downward angle of Ishhin-Ryu fist.  By the way, the Isshin-Ryu vertical fist does tend to stabilize the wrist; that thumb on top pressing down does it for some reason I don't quite understand.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Zenjael said:


> I've always felt anytime you could punch, a palm strike is just as sufficient.



I've always felt horses for courses.  There are times when one is preferable to the other.  They are neither the same nor are they interchangeable.



> Honestly, I don't think I can break a cinder-block with my fist, but I have a palm. I'd feel safer with the former to keep serious harm from happening to a person... but if necessary I believe a palm can execute far more force in a strike than a fist, because the durability constraints are significantly less.



If I have to defend myself, I am not concerned with the harm I do the person trying to harm me.  Mess with the bull, you get the horns.



> You have less fear of hurting your hand... but greater of harming the other. Knowing when it is appropriate, and how much force, is to know when to place the strike at its proper place.



What?  I don't even know what that means.


----------



## Zenjael

Bill Mattocks said:


> You said you were familiar with Isshin-Ryu.  We do not throw a torqued punch, we throw a straight punch with a vertical fist.  It's quite powerful and requires no 'torque'.  So I'm not sure why you think torque is required in punch with either palm or fist.  Kicks are powerful, do you torque them?



There would be no need to torque kicks, the already receive the energy necessary from manipulating how one bends their knees, and following the momentum. Torque CAN inhibit a strike if you torque into the direction you are striking in. If you torque into the direction of your strike, it can add energy. In my understanding, and execution of the party-trick one inch punch, the torque of the wrist is enough to move the other. 

[/QUOTE]Torque does not increase 'oomph'.  And if it did, that would be a shame, since that would mean that a torqued punch would generate less power if it hit its target before the complete torqued turn had been completed.[/QUOTE]

It is a short torque I seek when utilizing the movement, and adding it to where I already intend to strike. If you over-torque and go too far you'll not only have a conflict of forces, ull completely redirect the energy you're intending to impact. In short, you can deflect your own strike.



> I disagree.  My sensei has demonstrated (on me) a number of incredibly hard open-hand palm strikes, in a variety of configurations, without twisting or pivoting the wrist at all.  A palm strike can be delivered with great force to the hips or other balance points, the ribs, the side of the face, and the major internal organs without any need for any of these strange torquing movements of which you speak.  If you had been hit by one, you would drop that line of reasoning quickly, as you'd see it is completely untrue.



Not untrue. Many martial styles make more use of the hip to generate force as opposed to those which emphasize wrist, or elbow maneuvers. But at that point it is the hips doing exactly what my wrist does... and I also use my hips when I strike. You need to whole body behind your fist, from the wrist, to the elbow, to the shoulder, to the head orientation, to the back alignment, to the hips, knees, and ankles. 



Bill Mattocks said:


> I've always felt horses for courses.  There are times when one is preferable to the other.  They are neither the same nor are they interchangeable.



Absolutely. But in my experience, when I punch, I could also palm. However, I wouldn't switch techniques, like say go for a punch and then go for a palm. Though, that being said, there is a hand drill I enjoy where you spear-hand, punch, then palm. It's to emphasize minimalism, and that if when throwing one technique, it allows for another, take it.



MJS said:


> And this tells me this teacher didn't know what he was talking about, because pushups have nothing to do with putting someone down with 1 strike.  Interestingly enough, at a Arnis seminar a number of years back, my teacher had brought in a few other guys toteach as well.  One of them was Will Higginbotham.  He was expanding on our use of certain strikes in Arnis, fine tuning them, to sure where certain pressure points are.  Obviously hitting those will result in a KO.  He needed an uke for this segment, so I joined him.  Lightly tapped a few spots at the same time...notice I said lightly tapped....and the lights started going out.  These weren't hard hits by any means, but it proves my point...that its the location of the hit, not how hard you hit.



I would concur, it is location over force. But force is integral if those vitals are not opened much. What will you do when you finally fight someone who you can't hit in the vitals, and your blows haven't been developed to carve them up. When I fight people who's guards I can't get through, I beat on their arms, hitting any pressure point I can, until their arms falter. I'll punch the elbow every time they go to punch, and overwhelm.

But that only works if you develop the force of your strike, and to us, we used any reason to develop arm strength. When we did our push-ups it was only on the front knuckles or on finger-tips, with legs crossed and backs flat. I have to say that I noticed a strong correlation between those who could crank them out the fastest, and the heaviest hitters using the arms. Which frankly, given your statement of my teacher not knowing what he spoke of, makes me think you in turn do not.

[/QUOTE]But lets not turn this thread into another one about you.  We're talking about punches vs open hand strikes. [/QUOTE]

I agree.



K-man said:


> Most of my open hand strikes involve 'heavy hands'. As such a pivot of the wrist requires tension in the arm that would probably reduce the effectiveness of the strike by at least 50 percent.  Even the small amount of bagua I have studied from Erle Montaigue was more of an explosion of raw energy than a pivot generating torque.



For Bagua, it depends on the style. Some forms are anticipatory, while others are reactive. The Yin style, and lion style I studied are both like your experience, but I can think of several I have witnessed which don't have any respective 'explosive' power.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Zenjael said:


> There would be no need to torque kicks, the already receive the energy necessary from manipulating how one bends their knees, and following the momentum. Torque CAN inhibit a strike if you torque into the direction you are striking in. If you torque into the direction of your strike, it can add energy. In my understanding, and execution of the party-trick one inch punch, the torque of the wrist is enough to move the other.



Your understanding is incorrect.  The entire system of Isshin-Ryu uses no torquing punches - intentionally.  The founder experimented with them briefly after being pressured by other masters on Okinawa, but returned to the fist formation and punching method he developed for his system.  No one - and I mean no one - accuses Isshin-Ryu karateka of not punching hard.  

And we can also throw a one-inch punch with great power.  No torque required.  The hip, the knees, the back, and the shoulders all contribute to good body mechanics, which increase leverage to deliver a powerful punch.  Twisting the fist at the point of impact does not impart power to the forward momentum of the punch.  A drill bit turning does not increase the downward pressure applied by the drill.

The only punch we throw in which the fist turns is the uppercut, and that is not a 'torque' but rather a block incorporated into a punch.  Which you would know if you were familiar with Isshin-Ryu as you claimed.


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## jks9199

Torque.

What is Torque?

Once again, words matter.  You're trying to describe the turning of the hand in a twisting punch.  That's not torque.  Torque DOES figure into a punch; depending on your methodology, torque generated in the hips and shoulders is transferred through the hand to your target.  You can do that with a palm, a kick (no shoulders, though ), or a fist.

There are pros & cons to palm strikes, many of which have already been discussed.  Learn to use the appropriate weapon at the appropriate target at the appropriate time.


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## Zenjael

Bill Mattocks said:


> Your understanding is incorrect.  The entire system of Isshin-Ryu uses no torquing punches - intentionally.  The founder experimented with them briefly after being pressured by other masters on Okinawa, but returned to the fist formation and punching method he developed for his system.  No one - and I mean no one - accuses Isshin-Ryu karateka of not punching hard.



I'm not talking about Isshin-Ryu, I'm speaking about my own, such as Tang Soo Do, and Bagua. Not sure where I accused your style of that, be careful not to strawman, as I think you are right here.

[/QUOTE]And we can also throw a one-inch punch with great power.  No torque required.  The hip, the knees, the back, and the shoulders all contribute to good body mechanics, which increase leverage to deliver a powerful punch.  Twisting the fist at the point of impact does not impart power to the forward momentum of the punch.  A drill bit turning does not increase the downward pressure applied by the drill.[/QUOTE]

Anyone can throw it. It's a party trick. I was giving an example where torque generate great power with low cost. It does not add force, it directs it, which is even more important than adding force.

It would though, if it turns with as much as the drill, or re-directed the drill's momentum. You forget it is not just a punch, the body moves with it. The drill is not just at the wall, it is also being pushed into it. It's a factor which is imperative to not neglect.

[/QUOTE]The only punch we throw in which the fist turns is the uppercut, and that is not a 'torque' but rather a block incorporated into a punch.  Which you would know if you were familiar with Isshin-Ryu as you claimed.[/QUOTE]

Yes I am aware. And in shotokan there are many punches which are executed where they do turn their hand, as opposed to push it forward. I am not talking about Isshin Ryu, and haven't been. Your style does X, mine does Y, hence why I'm not getting into the mechanics of your style, but my own.

I don't think anyone can say any karate system hits 'softly'.




> Once again, words matter.  You're trying to describe the turning of the  hand in a twisting punch.



No, no. And if I have said that I retract it and apologize for not wording something to that gross of a degree. I am speaking of turning the hand with a palm strike, and that certainly is torque.



> That's not torque.  Torque DOES figure into a  punch; depending on your methodology, torque generated in the hips and  shoulders is transferred through the hand to your target.  You can do  that with a palm, a kick (no shoulders, though ), or a fist.




Agreed.


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## Bill Mattocks

[head explodes]


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## clfsean

bill mattocks said:


> [head explodes]




**clean up aisle 3**


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## K-man

Bill Mattocks said:


> Your understanding is incorrect.  The entire system of Isshin-Ryu uses no torquing punches - intentionally.  The founder experimented with them briefly after being pressured by other masters on Okinawa, but returned to the fist formation and punching method he developed for his system.  No one - and I mean no one - accuses Isshin-Ryu karateka of not punching hard.
> 
> And we can also throw a one-inch punch with great power.  No torque required.  The hip, the knees, the back, and the shoulders all contribute to good body mechanics, which increase leverage to deliver a powerful punch.  Twisting the fist at the point of impact does not impart power to the forward momentum of the punch.  A drill bit turning does not increase the downward pressure applied by the drill.
> 
> The only punch we throw in which the fist turns is the uppercut, and that is not a 'torque' but rather a block incorporated into a punch.  Which you would know if you were familiar with Isshin-Ryu as you claimed.


I'm not sure you can blame the Okinawans.  I started with Goju Kai (Japanese) who taught the twisting motion. Changing to the Okinawan form of Goju gives you a 'neutral' fist which is not exactly vertical but where the fist is naturally positioned if you extend your arm out from carriage with your elbow pointing down.

Personally, I have taught Tate tsuki (vertical fist) all along and the one inch punch is also a staple of the Okinawans. The power of their short punches is hip generated like the WC punch that is often described. For me, the angle of the fist changes slightly depending on where the trajectory is taking it toward the target, if that makes sense. I was shown that in the small amount of Systema that I have trained.

My theory on the twist punch is that if you were using a one knuckle punch to the ribs, the twisting motion could give rib separation and greater damage.
:asian:


----------



## Zenjael

> My theory on the twist punch is that if you were using a one knuckle  punch to the ribs, the twisting motion could give rib separation and  greater damage.
> :asian:



Very smart posting. Thank you for it.


----------



## K-man

Zenjael said:


> Torque CAN inhibit a strike if you torque into the direction you are striking in. If you torque into the direction of your strike, it can add energy. In my understanding, and execution of the party-trick one inch punch, the torque of the wrist is enough to move the other.
> 
> Alex, the one inch punch is not a party trick. If your video is an indication of the way you fight then you would have no need to use it. If you are engaged at close range, the short punch is what you have available. Often this could be from one inch although often you may have a little more. The one inch punch is normally a vertical fist. There is no torque involved.
> 
> It is a short torque I seek when utilizing the movement, and adding it to where I already intend to strike. If you over-torque and go too far you'll not only have a conflict of forces, ull completely redirect the energy you're intending to impact. In short, you can deflect your own strike.
> 
> ????
> 
> If you over torque you could even do a side summersault! IMHO what you are describing will reduce the power of your strike, not increase it.
> 
> Not untrue. Many martial styles make more use of the hip to generate force as opposed to those which emphasize wrist, or elbow maneuvers. But at that point it is the hips doing exactly what my wrist does... and I also use my hips when I strike. You need to whole body behind your fist, from the wrist, to the elbow, to the shoulder, to the head orientation, to the back alignment, to the hips, knees, and ankles.
> 
> Your understanding, here is so far from the truth that I find it impossible to believe you use your hips to generate power. What you are describing is power developed by turning your torso and although that includes the hips, it is not generated from the hips. The Okinawans use the same power generation that you find in Bagua. Once again from your video you would not have an opportunity to use your hips as you are nowhere near your opponent. Bio mechanically you are using your hips to make distance and you can't do both at once. The whole body and orientation bit is just not part of the hip generated punch. It is what you do with punches taught statically in basic karate classes but is not relevant in a fight. In a fight you punch from the position your find yourself in, even if you are on one foot.
> 
> When I fight people who's guards I can't get through, I beat on their arms, hitting any pressure point I can, until their arms falter. I'll punch the elbow every time they go to punch, and overwhelm.
> 
> Forgive me for saying, that is crap. By the time you have hit the arms of someone who can fight until they falter you will have been wiped of the floor. To do what you claim to be able to do you would have to be inside their range and once again judging on your size and your video that just isn't going to happen.  Besides that, striking the points on the outsides of the of the arms of someone who has their arms in a defensive pose will be unlikely to have the effect you describe. I have allowed a so called expert to hit my arms in this manner with absolutely no response. I then get referred to as an example of a 'non-responder' but I prefer to think of it as a technique that will probably fail under pressure.
> 
> But that only works if you develop the force of your strike, and to us, we used any reason to develop arm strength. When we did our push-ups it was only on the front knuckles or on finger-tips, with legs crossed and backs flat. I have to say that I noticed a strong correlation between those who could crank them out the fastest, and the heaviest hitters using the arms. Which frankly, given your statement of my teacher not knowing what he spoke of, makes me think you in turn do not.
> 
> Arm strength has very little to do with punching power. I'm with *MJS *on this one.



Sorry Alex. I have to disagree with most of your comments.  :asian:


----------



## Bill Mattocks

K-man said:


> I'm not sure you can blame the Okinawans.  I started with Goju Kai (Japanese) who taught the twisting motion. Changing to the Okinawan form of Goju gives you a 'neutral' fist which is not exactly vertical but where the fist is naturally positioned if you extend your arm out from carriage with your elbow pointing down.
> 
> Personally, I have taught Tate tsuki (vertical fist) all along and the one inch punch is also a staple of the Okinawans. The power of their short punches is hip generated like the WC punch that is often described. For me, the angle of the fist changes slightly depending on where the trajectory is taking it toward the target, if that makes sense. I was shown that in the small amount of Systema that I have trained.
> 
> My theory on the twist punch is that if you were using a one knuckle punch to the ribs, the twisting motion could give rib separation and greater damage.
> :asian:



The vertical fist of Isshin-Ryu is vertical only in certain applications; as you noted, we apply it 'where it fits'.  That is, when punching down to a hip to unbalance someone, the fist naturally fits into the hip in a different orientation.  Same for a jaw, for example.  However, the primary configuration is vertical.

I do not know and therefore cannot comment on twisting an ichi knuckle stike to the ribs.  It certainly sounds plausible, but I've never been shown it or tried it.  I have had a rib seriously bruised by an Isshin-Ryu black belt in NC who stuck one into me during light (but non-padded) sparring in their dojo; it hurt to breathe or cough or move for weeks.  No twist was required and the hit wasn't even that hard.  Frankly, an ichi-knuckle rake down the ribs is quite painful; one need not even apply much pressure in the form of a punch to get an immediate result on anyone who responds to pain (drunks and druggies may not).

As an aside, I have been taught that Shimabuku Soke chose the vertical fist because he studied how other ryu's fought; even in styles that use a torquing punch, he noted that in kumite they did not; they used a vertical fist for punching in most circumstances.  He believed (again, as I have been taught) that the vertical fist was a more natural alignment and taught it that way.  We perform Sanchin kata with a torquing punch when we perform it in the UIKA as a tribute to the Goju-Ryu style from which Soke learned (he also learned from Shorin-Ryu).


----------



## Dirty Dog

Bill Mattocks said:


> [head explodes]



[MONTY PYTHON]It's only a flesh wound...[/MONTY PYTHON]


----------



## MJS

Zenjael said:


> I would concur, it is location over force. But force is integral if those vitals are not opened much. What will you do when you finally fight someone who you can't hit in the vitals, and your blows haven't been developed to carve them up. When I fight people who's guards I can't get through, I beat on their arms, hitting any pressure point I can, until their arms falter. I'll punch the elbow every time they go to punch, and overwhelm.



And if a target that we want to hit, isnt open or available at that moment, we simply do something to open it up.  Come on man, this is basics 101.  Even the Gracies do it.  They're thinking multiple moves ahead.  You simply set the person up, so you can get the opening you want.  



> But that only works if you develop the force of your strike, and to us, we used any reason to develop arm strength. When we did our push-ups it was only on the front knuckles or on finger-tips, with legs crossed and backs flat. I have to say that I noticed a strong correlation between those who could crank them out the fastest, and the heaviest hitters using the arms. Which frankly, given your statement of my teacher not knowing what he spoke of, makes me think you in turn do not.



LMAO!  Dude, I've been training longer than you've been breathing.  Trust me, I've done, and still do, push-ups all the time, and yes, I do them on my knuckles too.  My point was simply...not everything requires massive amounts of strength.  Striking the arms...sure, I've done it, I've had people do it to me, during fighting.  Of course, thats not all I do to open a target, and I'd like to think thats not all you do either.  

What it seems to me, is that you're falling into the typical cult like mentality of some martial artists.  They seem to blindly follow, word for word, every single thing their teacher tells them, totally disregarding all other advice.  Hell, as proof that you're doing that, just take a peek at all of the threads here, which involve you, where we see many people giving advice, saying that certain things that you're saying are wrong, etc, yet you disregard them.  Oh well....

Your statement was that one needs to do lots of pushups in order to get that KO power.  I was proving to you that its not all about that, but more of the location of the strike.


----------



## seasoned

I feel that when the full twisting punch is taught to white belts they have a tendency to let their elbow point out more then down, at full extension.

The full twisting punch also helps to lock down the body structure. The important part of the full twist is to end up with the elbow pointing down at full extension. Also a bad habit from to much sparring is to extend that punch to far out, destabilizing the shoulder structure. IMO of course.


----------



## Zenjael

MJS said:


> And if a target that we want to hit, isnt open or available at that moment, we simply do something to open it up.  Come on man, this is basics 101.  Even the Gracies do it.  They're thinking multiple moves ahead.  You simply set the person up, so you can get the opening you want.



A nice reply... but it ignores my question completely. I did not ask how you would open their stance to increase vulnerability, that is common sense. I asked what you would do when you COULD NOT. You did nothing to answer that, and are answering a question I don't think I asked, or care to have an answer about. Frankly because what you're saying is as obvious as saying the sun would set. Of course you open or lead when they have an impenetrable guard. That wasn't the question though.




> LMAO!  Dude, I've been training longer than you've been breathing.  Trust me, I've done, and still do, push-ups all the time, and yes, I do them on my knuckles too.  My point was simply...not everything requires massive amounts of strength.  Striking the arms...sure, I've done it, I've had people do it to me, during fighting.  Of course, thats not all I do to open a target, and I'd like to think thats not all you do either.



Naturally. I would agree with you that location is even more important than the power generated. Hence how feeble blows to a temple or upper arm or lower neck can leave people dazed for hours with minimal force. I think we've all felt it when someone just taps us on the head, to demonstrate internal workings, and felt themselves go limp from the blow, which could hardly be called that. And naturally, there are a plethora of ways, as I'd like to think all martial artists know, in how to open a guard. Where it gets really interesting is parrying with the very skilled, and the mindgames that tend to develop.



> What it seems to me, is that you're falling into the typical cult like mentality of some martial artists.  They seem to blindly follow, word for word, every single thing their teacher tells them, totally disregarding all other advice.  Hell, as proof that you're doing that, just take a peek at all of the threads here, which involve you, where we see many people giving advice, saying that certain things that you're saying are wrong, etc, yet you disregard them.  Oh well....



And we can also, going over those same threads, see where I do and acquiesce that. You can also see how many give me erroneous advice, ignorant of my own styles and background. I defend what should be, in regards to myself, and I do not where I am wrong. You will see me admit my errs time and time and time again, but I am not the kind of person to blindly follow in cult worship. I have a few masters, and individuals I respect greatly, because they have proven themselves to be people worthy of that respect.  I have trained under masters I eventually left because I lost faith in their ability to teach, and my own abilities to be developed under their guidance.

If a person gives me something conducive which I can add to my own strategies in the ring, I happily use them, and give credit. But I've yet to see this, apart from Oaktree. I find his insights toward Bagua very effective. But then again, he is also blessed with a wonderful teacher, who is still alive as well.

[/QUOTE]Your statement was that one needs to do lots of pushups in order to get that KO power.  I was proving to you that its not all about that, but more of the location of the strike.[/QUOTE]

My apologies for not being clearer; my stance is not that push-ups blanket give you a KO, and a KO might need even be the desired result. Putting them down, at Khans, related more toward beating a person down until their will to fight was finished. It wasn't about winning the fight, but about all the fights to come as well, in that one fight. Push-ups will suffice for that, but I would advise getting a heavy bag, and somebody reallllllly big who can take blows.

I can recall working with one individual of zulu descent who no matter how many cinderblocks I could break, my punches to the midsection hardly phased. Huge guy, over 7 feet, so I was happy when we traded punches to the midsection and eventually I was able to make him wince. That being said, his punches floored the hell out of me. But then again, I recall his hands being easily as big as my head. Dude was a giant.

And... Who knows when Shaq might decide to mug you.:ultracool



K-man said:


> Sorry Alex. I have to disagree with most of your comments.  :asian:



That is your prerogative.



> Alex, the one inch punch is not a party trick. If  your video is an indication of the way you fight then you would have no  need to use it. If you are engaged at close range, the short punch is  what you have available. Often this could be from one inch although  often you may have a little more. The one inch punch is normally a  vertical fist. There is no torque involved.



Maybe where you train it isn't, but in this area, I think almost every martial artist I know, underbelt and black belt can perform the 'one inch punch' to considerable degree. You can do it with a horizontal or vertical oriented fist, I've seen both, and neither seemed to produce more push than the other. I'm not sure where you would think the application isn't useful to me, though I will be quite honest in my statement that if you get close range, the person had better be prepared to deal with elbows and knees. Ionno why in close range you'd go for a punch when there are far more useful techniques at your disposal given the range. Granted, this is why the 'one-inch' comes in handy, but... why do a party trick when you can slam them to the neck with your elbows? It seems like underkill to do a one-inch punch, where you could easily use your hips to generate a solid elbow blow.



> Your understanding, here is so far from the truth  that I find it impossible to believe you use your hips to generate  power. What you are describing is power developed by turning your torso  and although that includes the hips, it is not generated from the hips.  The Okinawans use the same power generation that you find in Bagua. Once  again from your video you would not have an opportunity to use your  hips as you are nowhere near your opponent. Bio mechanically you are  using your hips to make distance and you can't do both at once. The  whole body and orientation bit is just not part of the hip generated  punch. It is what you do with punches taught statically in basic karate  classes but is not relevant in a fight. In a fight you punch from the  position your find yourself in, even if you are on one foot.



Okinawans focus on redirection of the opponent as opposed to their own energy generation? This is news to me. I would not say Okinawans generate the same force as Bagua, I would say that about Aikido however. I suppose our views are diametrically opposed however. I am not sure what kind of fights you've been in, but those sound more like the brawls you'll see in the video I posted, or the security officer you can watch a video in. While it is true, you can throw a punch from one foot, I can't imagine a self-defense situation where a person would do this. Chances are I'm not using my purty kicks to do anything but kick them in the neck, head, or groin, and sweeps.

There are multiple occasions in the video where you can see with each strike rotation on the hip. Granted, not all the strikes are like this, but you can see quite a few certainly in how Alec is operating.



> Forgive me for saying, that is crap. By the time  you have hit the arms of someone who can fight until they falter you  will have been wiped of the floor. To do what you claim to be able to do  you would have to be inside their range and once again judging on your  size and your video that just isn't going to happen.  Besides that,  striking the points on the outsides of the of the arms of someone who  has their arms in a defensive pose will be unlikely to have the effect  you describe. I have allowed a so called expert to hit my arms in this  manner with absolutely no response. I then get referred to as an example  of a 'non-responder' but I prefer to think of it as a technique that  will probably fail under pressure.



My small size gives me awesome advantage for getting through guards. There are people who are 'non-responders', but this seems more likely inaccuracy in applying the technique. I think all techniques fail under pressure... if used incorrectly. If I'm going to strike their arms, the tactics switch- I stay out of range, always. The nice thing about TKD, and Kendo, is gaining the ability to back up and just never get tired of kicking. I've run laps backwards doing this, and could probably back up till the end of time, circling, and just kicking. Most people after several minutes just five up- it's not worth the cardio it requires to sprint and punch, which most aren't used to.

Staying out of range, and hitting the surface, their arms, is not hard to do. It is time consuming, and inadvisable in a situation involving multiples.

But then again, I don't understand why in a serious fight why you'd go for a tactic of striking the arms. Credit card, kick their shins in, their knees, elbows, and throat. 

A tactic I enjoy is stepping on a persons foot. They can't go anywhere and it gives me a height advantage at times, which you wouldn't think such a big deal, but can be.

It amazing how often a well placed hand can jam any advance. It's also amazing how often people leave it out and dont expect it to be grabbed, or they thrown.

The trick is to know when to use things where. If I hit a person in the same place 3 times on the arms, and there is not even the tiniest lowering... i'd abandon the tactic against them. You modify everything as you go, per the individual. I'd switch to false openings, and maybe switch to striking them at the joints, lightly.

We should probably make distinction between sparring, and survival though. We did 5 on 5's today, and the first half hour was practical self-defense. The second half hour in our second hour was spent what id call continuous non-point sparring.


----------



## Tez3

Oh good grief. :hb:


----------



## MJS

Zenjael said:


> A nice reply... but it ignores my question completely. I did not ask how you would open their stance to increase vulnerability, that is common sense. I asked what you would do when you COULD NOT. You did nothing to answer that, and are answering a question I don't think I asked, or care to have an answer about. Frankly because what you're saying is as obvious as saying the sun would set. Of course you open or lead when they have an impenetrable guard. That wasn't the question though.



Here is what you said:

"I would concur, it is location over force. But force is integral if those vitals are not opened much. What will you do when you finally fight someone who you can't hit in the vitals, and your blows haven't been developed to carve them up. When I fight people who's guards I can't get through, I beat on their arms, hitting any pressure point I can, until their arms falter. I'll punch the elbow every time they go to punch, and overwhelm."


Your claim that you'd hit the arms, while a good idea, proved to not be as good as you claim. I believe it was K-Man you went into more detail. I agree with what he said. I mean really...do you honestly think that someone is just going to stand there and allow you to hit their arms repeatedly, and not do anything to you? LOL! Instead of doing that, thats why I said its basics 101. Don't keep doing the same thing over and over and over. Do something else, to set up the goal that you really want to reach. And if its that obvious to you, then you wouldnt have said something to crazy. LOL!






> Naturally. I would agree with you that location is even more important than the power generated. Hence how feeble blows to a temple or upper arm or lower neck can leave people dazed for hours with minimal force. I think we've all felt it when someone just taps us on the head, to demonstrate internal workings, and felt themselves go limp from the blow, which could hardly be called that. And naturally, there are a plethora of ways, as I'd like to think all martial artists know, in how to open a guard. Where it gets really interesting is parrying with the very skilled, and the mindgames that tend to develop.



Temple, neck, sure I can agree with that. Upper arm, been hit there many times. I didn't get KOd, go limp, nothing. Furthermore, your saying 'tap on the head' leads me to believe you missed my point. Not just any spot on the head, but particular areas, in conjunction with others, to get the KO. Pressure point study is not something that can be learned overnight Alex. 





> And we can also, going over those same threads, see where I do and acquiesce that. You can also see how many give me erroneous advice, ignorant of my own styles and background. I defend what should be, in regards to myself, and I do not where I am wrong. You will see me admit my errs time and time and time again, but I am not the kind of person to blindly follow in cult worship. I have a few masters, and individuals I respect greatly, because they have proven themselves to be people worthy of that respect. I have trained under masters I eventually left because I lost faith in their ability to teach, and my own abilities to be developed under their guidance.
> 
> If a person gives me something conducive which I can add to my own strategies in the ring, I happily use them, and give credit. But I've yet to see this, apart from Oaktree. I find his insights toward Bagua very effective. But then again, he is also blessed with a wonderful teacher, who is still alive as well.



You've yet to see the good advice? Gee, I think I've given you some damn good advice, as well as others. Sadly, in your case, it comes down to you not hearing what YOU want to hear. People give you advice, and you claim to accept it, then go right back to posting the same foolish things you posted before. I've commented to you on some things you've said regarding kicking. You come back with a claim to counter what I said, rather than think about what I've said. You make yourself sound like you're privy to some special secrets. I highly doubt it. A good portion of what you've said, many of us have already seen, thus why you get so many replies telling you youre wrong, but YOU dont want to hear or accept that. 





> Maybe where you train it isn't, but in this area, I think almost every martial artist I know, underbelt and black belt can perform the 'one inch punch' to considerable degree. You can do it with a horizontal or vertical oriented fist, I've seen both, and neither seemed to produce more push than the other. I'm not sure where you would think the application isn't useful to me, though I will be quite honest in my statement that if you get close range, the person had better be prepared to deal with elbows and knees. Ionno why in close range you'd go for a punch when there are far more useful techniques at your disposal given the range. Granted, this is why the 'one-inch' comes in handy, but... why do a party trick when you can slam them to the neck with your elbows? It seems like underkill to do a one-inch punch, where you could easily use your hips to generate a solid elbow blow.



Anyone can stand 1in. away and punch. But its the end result that only a few...those who really understand it, that makes all the difference in the world. See, you're doing it again....making yourself sound like an expert in everything. Then you wonder why you get the replies that you do. You claim its a party trick. Why? Because you dont understand it, you cant do it, and those that have tried it with you, dont know how to do it either.


----------



## MJS

Zenjael said:


> My small size gives me awesome advantage for getting through guards. There are people who are 'non-responders', but this seems more likely inaccuracy in applying the technique. I think all techniques fail under pressure... if used incorrectly. If I'm going to strike their arms, the tactics switch- I stay out of range, always. The nice thing about TKD, and Kendo, is gaining the ability to back up and just never get tired of kicking. I've run laps backwards doing this, and could probably back up till the end of time, circling, and just kicking. Most people after several minutes just five up- it's not worth the cardio it requires to sprint and punch, which most aren't used to.
> 
> Staying out of range, and hitting the surface, their arms, is not hard to do. It is time consuming, and inadvisable in a situation involving multiples.
> 
> But then again, I don't understand why in a serious fight why you'd go for a tactic of striking the arms. Credit card, kick their shins in, their knees, elbows, and throat.
> 
> A tactic I enjoy is stepping on a persons foot. They can't go anywhere and it gives me a height advantage at times, which you wouldn't think such a big deal, but can be.
> 
> It amazing how often a well placed hand can jam any advance. It's also amazing how often people leave it out and dont expect it to be grabbed, or they thrown.
> 
> The trick is to know when to use things where. If I hit a person in the same place 3 times on the arms, and there is not even the tiniest lowering... i'd abandon the tactic against them. You modify everything as you go, per the individual. I'd switch to false openings, and maybe switch to striking them at the joints, lightly.
> 
> We should probably make distinction between sparring, and survival though. We did 5 on 5's today, and the first half hour was practical self-defense. The second half hour in our second hour was spent what id call continuous non-point sparring.



What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand??  Nothing!  Are you going to steer another topic off track with posts of how good you supposedly are?  If thats what you wish to do, please do so in the other threads, but not this one.  We have a specific topic here, and listening to you yap about kicking while moving back, and all the other gibberish you're talking, has nothing to do with the topic.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Zenjael said:


> A nice reply... but it ignores my question completely.



Vi faris min perdi la volo por vivi. Mi esperas ke vi estas feli&#265;a.


----------



## Gnarlie

Bill Mattocks said:


> Vi faris min perdi la volo por vivi. Mi esperas ke vi estas feli&#265;a.



i venit, i vidit, i terebravisse in Braccae off omnium


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## Tez3

Bersonol i'n dod o hyd Gymraeg ffordd ddiddorol i gyfathrebu.


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## K-man

Tez3 said:


> Bersonol i'n dod o hyd Gymraeg ffordd ddiddorol i gyfathrebu.


Finally, some sense in all this gibberish!
:uhyeah:


----------



## Tez3

K-man said:


> Finally, some sense in all this gibberish!
> :uhyeah:



Aye Wales have just won the Triple Crown, beating England, then they won the Grand Slam. Sure it's rugby not martial arts but at this moment at least it's plain and simple! I'm a bit tired of brain scrambling, self promoting, erroneous prose!


----------



## chinto

lol been sick, had not slept for about 48 hours when I made that post! lol  surprised its even readable!!  metacarpals.  ok:rules: stupid spelling and typing and thinking at that point!!!! grrr.   


oon the  other hand, thanks for the notice. lol

if you are looking for your two cents back... I am sorry do to an insufficient funds your money is not refundable. so solly.! Please remit the moneys again and I will see if I can now refund it after I receive it.:drinkbeer


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## Dirty Dog

chinto said:


> lol been sick, had not slept for about 48 hours when I made that post! lol  surprised its even readable!!  metacarpals.  ok:rules: stupid spelling and typing and thinking at that point!!!! grrr.
> 
> 
> oon the  other hand, thanks for the notice. lol



Never fear, we are always near!

View attachment $grammartime.gif

View attachment $grammarpolice.jpg


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## Zenjael

> Why wouldn't you deserve it?  If you met the requirements that were  established at the school and provided that there was no organizational  prohibition or age restrictions laid out by an organization that the  school was part of, then you were as deserving of yours as I was of  mine.



Not in the least MJS. And the topic hasn't been de-railed, I kept it on track, even in the quote you gave. We should make a distinction between sparring and survival when it comes to which techniques we employ. I don't mind punching in point sparring, but in survival I'd switch to using my palm. I'm going to defend myself when its warranted, or would you advise me to... not defend myself on a public board when people are posting in a way detrimental to my view?

A forum is to discuss, and that requires alternate views. I notice you focusing on my post, but not those that proceeded it, which warranted me pursuing that thread of discussion further. It takes two to dance, if you get my drift. You won't see me being defensive when I'm on the initiative, so if you're going to lament my posts becoming tangents, well... No one could say the thread hijacked. I've found, on theology boards especially, that when speaking about God, sometimes you also have to talk about the devil. No matter what's been said, the convo always comes back to the question in the PM. Fist? Or palm? In regards to self-defense.



> You claim its a party trick. Why? Because you dont understand it, you  cant do it, and those that have tried it with you, dont know how to do  it either.



When I see underbelts able to execute it, it is a trick, nothing more. I consider it in the same class as kicking an apple off a sword- sure, it takes great flexibility, accuracy, and skill to execute... but it's still a trick designed to wow children and get people to join at demonstrations. A magician operates based off technique, skill, and degree of deception- that doesn't make it any less a skill, or a trick. I am not privy to any 'secrets', that I know of, and I am apologetic if I come off as appearing to claim to be so. But I haven't... so... it's moot. 

I do not think anyone lets people just wail on them, unless seriously averse toward violence. But you neglect my own statements that when pursued, as is almost always the case, it is not hard to back up and keep them running in circles. Literally. Given enough space I could probably back up the course of a football field, and keep kicking the whole way. Would you honestly purse me that far? And meanwhile, what can they do? Have you ever tried running and kicking simultaneously? Try it next time you go running. Most end up punching as they advance, losing a lot of reason in the pursuit of landing something. And as they punch, I'll happily kick their arms until the sky turns black from blue.

My point isn't that I'm awesome, or even very good. Anybody who does WTF TKD will know what I'm talking about. It's a fairly common, and basic tactic to use when it comes to kicking- retreat, keeping distance far enough to still land, but outside their immediate reach. Their kicks fail because you constantly move back. The only trick is retaining cardio to pull it off. And not get tackled. I did it with a wrestler once who was a linebacker and it didn't work out very well. My point is merely to give a tactic I have used, in response to your claim that opening by hitting the arms does not work. Sometimes, then you move to another strategy, and when that doesn't work, you move to the next, and the next, until either you are beaten or they. You know this. The only person whose guard you can't find the opening into... is the person who will defeat you... logically.

The point comes full circle- I'm not sure I can break a bone adequately with a punch. Probably, but it is without certainty. Perhaps I am miseducated, but I imagine 3 one inch slabs to be around the durability of a bone. I am certain however, that a full force palm strike will break most bones it comes into contact with. Are there any strikes you know if landed would get you put in prison for life for excessive force? That you do not execute, because of that risk of injury or death if you did execute it with 100% power and intent and speed. The palm strike is one for me, and hence is why I favor it over the fist.

I've given my 2 cents regardless; between palm and fist, I'd side with the former.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Zenjael said:


> Not in the least MJS. And the topic hasn't been de-railed, I kept it on track, even in the quote you gave. We should make a distinction between sparring and survival when it comes to which techniques we employ. I don't mind punching in point sparring, but in survival I'd switch to using my palm.



The problem lies not with the effectiveness of punching, but with your apparent (and acknowledged) inability to punch safely and effectively.



Zenjael said:


> I'm going to defend myself when its warranted, or would you advise me to... not defend myself on a public board when people are posting in a way detrimental to my view?



Detrimental: Harmful, damaging.

I'm not sure how anybody could post something "in a way detrimental to [your] view". In opposition to it, yes. As others have suggested, you might want to stop using words when you clearly do not understand what they mean.

[Remaining self-aggrandizing rubbish tossed in the bin.]


----------



## MJS

Zenjael said:


> Not in the least MJS. And the topic hasn't been de-railed, I kept it on track, even in the quote you gave. We should make a distinction between sparring and survival when it comes to which techniques we employ. I don't mind punching in point sparring, but in survival I'd switch to using my palm. I'm going to defend myself when its warranted, or would you advise me to... not defend myself on a public board when people are posting in a way detrimental to my view?
> 
> A forum is to discuss, and that requires alternate views. I notice you focusing on my post, but not those that proceeded it, which warranted me pursuing that thread of discussion further. It takes two to dance, if you get my drift. You won't see me being defensive when I'm on the initiative, so if you're going to lament my posts becoming tangents, well... No one could say the thread hijacked. I've found, on theology boards especially, that when speaking about God, sometimes you also have to talk about the devil. No matter what's been said, the convo always comes back to the question in the PM. Fist? Or palm? In regards to self-defense.



Not sure who you're quoting here, but I know it wasn't me.  However, since you mentioned my name, I'll comment.   Alex...my point is simply this:  When people start a topic, they're usually looking to discuss the topic.  Ex: I start a topic in the grappling section on mount escapes.  THAT is what I want to talk about.  If someone comes on and starts talking about guard passes...well, that is off topic.  There are 2 other threads, in which the focus is on you.  Perhaps if we want to talk about your other training methods, that talk should go there. 





> When I see underbelts able to execute it, it is a trick, nothing more. I consider it in the same class as kicking an apple off a sword- sure, it takes great flexibility, accuracy, and skill to execute... but it's still a trick designed to wow children and get people to join at demonstrations. A magician operates based off technique, skill, and degree of deception- that doesn't make it any less a skill, or a trick. I am not privy to any 'secrets', that I know of, and I am apologetic if I come off as appearing to claim to be so. But I haven't... so... it's moot.



Exactly...underbelts...people who probably dont know what they're doing.  Interestingly enough, I had a guy who trained WC, do the 1in punch on me.  He didn't do it hard, but hard enough to show me what he was talking about.  I can assure you it was no trick.  I stumbled back.



> I do not think anyone lets people just wail on them, unless seriously averse toward violence. But you neglect my own statements that when pursued, as is almost always the case, it is not hard to back up and keep them running in circles. Literally. Given enough space I could probably back up the course of a football field, and keep kicking the whole way. Would you honestly purse me that far? And meanwhile, what can they do? Have you ever tried running and kicking simultaneously? Try it next time you go running. Most end up punching as they advance, losing a lot of reason in the pursuit of landing something. And as they punch, I'll happily kick their arms until the sky turns black from blue.
> 
> My point isn't that I'm awesome, or even very good. Anybody who does WTF TKD will know what I'm talking about. It's a fairly common, and basic tactic to use when it comes to kicking- retreat, keeping distance far enough to still land, but outside their immediate reach. Their kicks fail because you constantly move back. The only trick is retaining cardio to pull it off. And not get tackled. I did it with a wrestler once who was a linebacker and it didn't work out very well. My point is merely to give a tactic I have used, in response to your claim that opening by hitting the arms does not work. Sometimes, then you move to another strategy, and when that doesn't work, you move to the next, and the next, until either you are beaten or they. You know this. The only person whose guard you can't find the opening into... is the person who will defeat you... logically.
> 
> The point comes full circle- I'm not sure I can break a bone adequately with a punch. Probably, but it is without certainty. Perhaps I am miseducated, but I imagine 3 one inch slabs to be around the durability of a bone. I am certain however, that a full force palm strike will break most bones it comes into contact with. Are there any strikes you know if landed would get you put in prison for life for excessive force? That you do not execute, because of that risk of injury or death if you did execute it with 100% power and intent and speed. The palm strike is one for me, and hence is why I favor it over the fist.
> 
> I've given my 2 cents regardless; between palm and fist, I'd side with the former.



One of the things that I'd work on during my private sparring sessions with one of my old Kenpo teachers, was cutting off the ring.  In other words, we'd work footwork and various drills, on the guy who was backing up, cutting them off, limiting their movement, so they'd basically be stuck in the corner.  I'm not saying backing up is bad, but ya have to work angles.  

As for kicking while moving back...I'm assuming you're talking about multiple kicks without putting the leg down, while you're moving back.  Am I correct?  If so, eventually power will start to decrease.  It wouldn't be hard for someone to use timing, move in, jam your leg, and well, the rest is history..lol.  

As for breaking boards, bones, etc.  I am sure that you know the difference between the 2, right?  Please tell me that you're honestly not comparing breaking boards to bones.  Please tell me thats not what you're saying.  We have had people on here, talking about the correct angle and how its not as hard as it seems.  Hell, Dirty Dog is in the medical field.  I'm sure he could vouch for this.  

Anyways...lets get back to the discussion on palms vs. open hands.   If you feel the need to reply to anything I've said here, either PM me or copy/paste what we both said, and repost it in one of those other threads.


----------



## Dirty Dog

MJS said:


> Hell, Dirty Dog is in the medical field.  I'm sure he could vouch for this.



Vouch!


----------



## K-man

Zenjael said:


> Okinawans focus on redirection of the opponent as opposed to their own energy generation? This is news to me. I would not say Okinawans generate the same force as Bagua, I would say that about Aikido however. I suppose our views are diametrically opposed however. I am not sure what kind of fights you've been in, but those sound more like the brawls you'll see in the video I posted, or the security officer you can watch a video in. While it is true, you can throw a punch from one foot, I can't imagine a self-defense situation where a person would do this. Chances are I'm not using my purty kicks to do anything but kick them in the neck, head, or groin, and sweeps.
> 
> Unfortunately, Alex, an enormous amount of information posted here is likely to be news to you! I will discuss the redirection below.
> 
> There are multiple occasions in the video where you can see with each strike rotation on the hip. Granted, not all the strikes are like this, but you can see quite a few certainly in how Alec is operating.
> 
> I'm not going to spend any more time looking at your video, but if you would like to post the time that you think you are using your hips to generate power for a punch I will spend the time to look.
> 
> There are people who are 'non-responders', but this seems more likely inaccuracy in applying the technique. I think all techniques fail under pressure... if used incorrectly. If I'm going to strike their arms, the tactics switch- I stay out of range, always. The nice thing about TKD, and Kendo, is gaining the ability to back up and just never get tired of kicking. I've run laps backwards doing this, and could probably back up till the end of time, circling, and just kicking. Most people after several minutes just five up- it's not worth the cardio it requires to sprint and punch, which most aren't used to.
> 
> It's wonderful that you are so technically gifted that you could make these arm strikes work. The guy who couldn't make it work on me was just an 8th dan guy who tours the world doing seminars on Kyushu.  I'm not suggesting his strikes didn't hurt. They just didn't produce the effect he was trying to achieve. Not one of them!
> 
> 
> Perhaps you could explain why I would want to follow you if you were going backwards kicking.
> 
> Staying out of range, and hitting the surface, their arms, is not hard to do. It is time consuming, and inadvisable in a situation involving multiples.
> 
> But then again, I don't understand why in a serious fight why you'd go for a tactic of striking the arms. Credit card, kick their shins in, their knees, elbows, and throat.  *????  *Excuse my lack of ability to understand English, but I thought it was you advocating striking the arms.


Among the first things we learn in Goju are the basic techniques of Jodan uke and Chudan uke. To beginners they are taught as 'blocks'. From other posts you may have gleaned that 'uke' does not mean 'block' but 'receive'. We also have a saying, that goes at least to 8th Dan, that these are performed with "two hands for beginners".  The secret Alex, and I'll ask you to keep it to yourself, is that the first hand deflects the attack whether it be grab, push or strike, and the second hand protects, traps or strikes according to the situation. This is the same principle that you would use in Chi Na or in Tegumi.  So deflection, or redirection, is actually something that I introduce to beginners on their very first day. Goju is 'hard' and 'soft'.  Absorbing or deflecting the attack is part of the 'soft'. 

WRT the fights.  Yes, they are brawls. Right in your face pushing and shoving, hitting and getting hit. Really nothing like the video you posted. And in that situation I'd love to see how you would use your 'purty' kick to the neck or head. It ain't gunna happen. Best is a knee to the groin or thigh and yes the one you said you liked, a stomp on the foot.  :asian:


----------



## mook jong man

I was not going to get into this because quite frankly trying to decipher Zenjael's language gives me a migraine.
But I have to clear up some of this BS flying around about the one inch punch.

It is not a party trick , in Wing Chun we do not break boards and stuff like they do in other arts.
So to people that are sceptical about our ability to generate power in close we put a phone book on their chest and show them the one inch punch.
Me personally I like to have a wall about half a metre behind them , not for their safety , but so that I can watch them bounce back off the wall , it makes me laugh. 
It is merely a demonstration that says " If I can do this to you from this close , imagine what I can do to you from back here".

It shows the level of  force that can be generated from the Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma stance. 
Really it is not that special , it doesn't even have to be a punch , I can do a one inch elbow strike , I can do a one inch knee strike.
Or a one inch double palm strike like my master did to my chest once that left hand prints on my skin and made me feel as though I had been hit by a truck.


Zenjael mentioned why would you do it , why not  use something else like an elbow or knee?
This indicates to me an ignorance of the workings of the Wing Chun system.

It must be understood that Wing Chun is a close range system , a system in which hand trapping and immobilisation of the opponents arms play a crucial role.
In some of the Wing Chun trapping movements both your arms will be trapped and trying to do an elbow strike will be impossible , the only thing left available to you maybe to try and squeeze through a close range strike or more commonly known as a one inch punch , this maybe enough to cause damage and enable you to escape the trap.

You could try to use a knee , but he will be using his stance to unbalance you as he moves forward ,so trying to raise your leg at all would be foolhardy , you are going to need a solid stance with both your feet on the ground if you are going to survive the onslaught at this close range.

Sigung Tsui Seung Tin one of the four closed door students of Yip Man , he can actually do a "No inch punch" , that is he can generate a startling amount of force with his fist already in contact with your body.

Now as to the mechanics of how the force is generated , it mainly comes from having a properly developed Wing Chun stance and something in Wing Chun that we call "Elbow Force" a type of grinding , driving force from the elbow developed by practice of the Siu Nim Tao form .

Relaxation of all the muscles particularly the shoulders , chest and thighs is very important , any tension in the muscles will result in some of your force being wasted and not penetrating the target , as the recoil force  comes back from the target and back into your body.

The blockages caused by the tension in your muscles will result in your stance being affected and you  thrown back instead of this force being harmlessly channelled down your body and into the floor. 

In my opinion you should concentrate on learning to inch punch just using your stance and "Elbow Force" only , you can use the hip and a slight extension of your arm from the shoulder socket and that will give you a powerful strike but I would not rely on those.
When you see Tsui Seung Tin do it , the only thing that moves is his elbow.

My master used to say that each time you perform the Siu Nim Tao form you are actually working on your "One Inch Punch"
Hopefully that cleared some things up as to what it is and why we do it.


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## Kenlee25

Alex, or Zenjeal, or whatever your name is, it seems you want so badly to prove yourself. I will not lie and say that I read all of your very long posts defending your claims...but you seem to lack to ability to withstand criticism.

I saw you video..and frankly I wasn't so impressed. I'm not the world's best fighter here, but I've had my fair share of sparring opponents, including no gear full contact MMA sparring. I did not see much wing chun in there, and flicking your foot around like a sport Taekwondo fighter is useless in actual combat. You should treat sparring like you would actual fighting, flashy moves are cool sometimes but making them crucial into your style like that is bad mojo. I am a black belt in Taekwondo as well ( non sport ) and my teacher would literally make jokes for months if he saw us doing that.

Also, STOP TRYING TO DEFEND YOURSELF. You have a difference of opinion I get that, but on your sparring video and even now, you seem to want to prove to everyone that you are right. That's not the way you learn man. You disregared a lot of the stuff people were saying in your video because they were ( by your words ) disregarding your style. But in the end, sparring or fighting, no one cares about what style you are using, they care efficiency, and even a young eye such as mine could see problems in your sparring technique that people on this board ( i think ) would be more than happy to help you with so that you may improve.

I think, and this is coming from another young martial artist, you would find it in your best interest to just listen when the elder artist's are giving advice. You may voice discontent sure, but flat out arguing back and forth isn't the way to go.

_*BACK ON TOPIC.*_

For those of you saying that palming someone is simply a way to protect your hand from horrible punching technique, that's just not true. I've broken my hand before and every since i've known just have fragile it can actually be despite what we think. Using a strike that is safer yet generates more power seems like something everyone should know how to do in my opinion. although admittedly, I'm still way more partial to punching. After hearing all of these opinions I've decided it may be best for me just to truly perfect my punching skill even though it is not horrible to begin with.

Also K-Man I like the idea of the neutral punch. I never heard of it before, and I've been trying it out. It actually feels quite strong and natural and seems to be a good alternative between the corkscrew punch and the vertical punch - it definitely brings in both power and speed. I never much liked the corkscrew punch honestly. I've always wondered why so many styles teach it.


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## Bill Mattocks

Body mechanics allow for some startling things.  Our skeletal construction and musculature allows us to generate force in a variety of ways.  Some of them feel natural, some are learned behavior, and some are fairly rarely used or esoteric.  

While many believe in unseen energy circulation such as chi, body mechanics does not differ in terms of describing why a given power generation method will or will not work; so chi or mechanics, it's all very understandable and clearly works.

What matters in use is that the force is applied when needed, where needed, and in sufficient quantity to get the job done.  Ideally, with a minimum of wasted energy or negative consequences (such as losing one's balance, being left open for counter-strikes, breaking one's own bones, etc).

Many martial arts styles were built around central notions of body mechanics that are quite often the same or similar, but sometimes explore different concepts and methodologies.  Power generation and application may differ, but in the end, what matters is execution and results.

If there was one way that was superior to all others, we'd all be doing it, and the various styles would all be teaching it.  The fact that many styles seem to teach both punching and palm strike methods would seem to indicate that both are effective and both have their place.  To reject one and prefer another reflects personal choice, and no one can say that it is not a correct choice for that person.  To apply such reasoning to the entire martial arts world is foolish, in my opinion.


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## Cyriacus

I find Punches to hit harder than Palms.
If I had trained specifically to use Palms instead of Punches, Id probably be better at Palming than Punching.

If I did any and all heavy breaking with My Palms, Id be better at the art of breaking boards and tiles and stuff with Palms.
I do it with Closed Fists, and as such I am good at doing it with Closed Fists.


----------



## oaktree

In Baguazhang we uses the Palm(maybe in some of the linear or animal forms some use fist depending on the line).
 I think in Baguazhang we feel  the palm has multi functions. Since Baguazhang is an art involving change we use palms because it is easier to change from a finger jab to a block to a grab by turning the body and palm(hand) rather than using a closed fist to provide the change for 3 different actions. We also think that an open hand with fingers pointing has a longer reach than a closed fist, that inch or two at the right entry can be the difference of who hits first.


----------



## mook jong man

What about a punch to the solar plexus followed immediately by a palm strike , delivered by the same arm?
In Wing Chun we have a technique called "Double Striking" where the first strike immediately after landing will be converted into second different strike usually to the same target using the same limb.

A simple one would be a palm strike which then collapses into an elbow strike , it uses a battering ram type of effect where the first strike weakens the structure and the second strike finishes it off.


----------



## WingChunIan

mook jong man said:


> I was not going to get into this because quite frankly trying to decipher Zenjael's language gives me a migraine.
> But I have to clear up some of this BS flying around about the one inch punch.
> 
> 
> 
> I too was going to refrain, I was too busy laughing at the idea that you could punch and kick arms to defend against punches, lol A minute in a boxing ring or real fight, would dispel that notion and it was so humorous that I wasn't going to respond to the one inch punch stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not a party trick , in Wing Chun we do not break boards and stuff like they do in other arts.
> So to people that are sceptical about our ability to generate power in close we put a phone book on their chest and show them the one inch punch.
> Me personally I like to have a wall about half a metre behind them , not for their safety , but so that I can watch them bounce back off the wall , it makes me laugh.
> It is merely a demonstration that says " If I can do this to you from this close , imagine what I can do to you from back here".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree its not a party trick but it would seem we differ in our approach to the technique. Unfortunately the famous demo given by a WC master where he causes the student stumble backwards into a chair has given rise to a whole generation of copy cat demos that end up leading to the situation that the other poster described. When done properly (IMO) the inch punch shouldn't move the opponent backwards at all. All of the force should be into the jic seen and they should feel like you've just put your hand through their chest resulting in them simply collapsing / wobbling where they stand. A si bak of mine once did a demo where he struck a melon from contact. It rolled an inch and had no visible sign of damage other than some knuckle marks but when it was cut open the inside was mush. The same should be true of Wing Chun punches from any range, we are trying to cause damage not push the opponent away.
> 
> 
> 
> It shows the level of  force that can be generated from the Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma stance.
> Really it is not that special , it doesn't even have to be a punch , I can do a one inch elbow strike , I can do a one inch knee strike.
> Or a one inch double palm strike like my master did to my chest once that left hand prints on my skin and made me feel as though I had been hit by a truck.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> agreed, it is irrelevant what the contact point is as the striking point is not the origin of the power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zenjael mentioned why would you do it , why not  use something else like an elbow or knee?
> This indicates to me an ignorance of the workings of the Wing Chun system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> true
> 
> 
> 
> It must be understood that Wing Chun is a close range system , a system in which hand trapping and immobilisation of the opponents arms play a crucial role.
> In some of the Wing Chun trapping movements both your arms will be trapped and trying to do an elbow strike will be impossible , the only thing left available to you maybe to try and squeeze through a close range strike or more commonly known as a one inch punch , this maybe enough to cause damage and enable you to escape the trap
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> . Possibly but IMO the one inch punch is merely a concept to focus on developing power from the kinetic chain without withdrawing and delivering that power into the jic seen. The power can be delivered in any direction to the nearest target as practised in SNT, (the first Wing Chun form for those not ITK).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My master used to say that each time you perform the Siu Nim Tao form you are actually working on your "One Inch Punch"
> Hopefully that cleared some things up as to what it is and why we do it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> agree but people would need to know what SNT is, what its for and how its trained for this to make sense. I would also add that the one inch punch is then added to by power generation methods from CK and BJ (the second and third Wing Chun empty hand forms for those who don't study the art)
Click to expand...


----------



## Tez3

Before training last night I was telling our chief instructor how you could break arms by kicking them as I read here, as you imagine he laughed like a drain. We did the kids session then the adults, towards the end of the adults session we thought we wind down and have a bit of fun, one person stayed in the middle of the mats and everyone else took it in turns to grapple with him for 30 secs. Lo and behold all that talk about broken arms so didn't one of our lads go and break his! he was caught in an arm bar, not hard of or even fast but he pulled out and we heard a 'snap'. So last night I spent a few hours in A&E with the lad, who's only 15. His mum came up to meet us there, the lad wasn't in much pain despite the bone making a lump in his arm, he came out of X Ray saying the bone had snapped and it cool!) worse for him was sitting in the childrens waiting room! he had to stop over night in childens ward too, at the moment he's in theatres so I'm waiting to see how he got on, he's having pins and a plate plus the wrist popped so that's going back too. We don't really know how it broke, it shouldn't have done the techniques wasn't on hard or even fully, the best we think is bad luck but I don't think I'll discuss broken arms again for a while! I do stress however it wasn't a kick!!


----------



## frank raud

Tez3 said:


> Before training last night I was telling our chief instructor how you could break arms by kicking them as I read here, as you imagine he laughed like a drain. We did the kids session then the adults, towards the end of the adults session we thought we wind down and have a bit of fun, one person stayed in the middle of the mats and everyone else took it in turns to grapple with him for 30 secs. Lo and behold all that talk about broken arms so didn't one of our lads go and break his! he was caught in an arm bar, not hard of or even fast but he pulled out and we heard a 'snap'. So last night I spent a few hours in A&E with the lad, who's only 15. His mum came up to meet us there, the lad wasn't in much pain despite the bone making a lump in his arm, he came out of X Ray saying the bone had snapped and it cool!) worse for him was sitting in the childrens waiting room! he had to stop over night in childens ward too, at the moment he's in theatres so I'm waiting to see how he got on, he's having pins and a plate plus the wrist popped so that's going back too. We don't really know how it broke, it shouldn't have done the techniques wasn't on hard or even fully, the best we think is bad luck but I don't think I'll discuss broken arms again for a while! I do stress however it wasn't a kick!!



Yet another reason why no contact grappling should be mandated. Its for the children!


----------



## Cyriacus

frank raud said:


> Yet another reason why no contact grappling should be mandated. Its for the children!


...No contact grappling?
Thats... Such an oxymoronic...
I cant say anything without violating a few rules about profanity


----------



## Tez3

frank raud said:


> Yet another reason why no contact grappling should be mandated. Its for the children!



LOL at no contact grappling, really? 

My daughter is a cheer leading coach, they are way ahead of us on injuries. She's just got over a torn hamstring, they had a lass with a broken ankle, another with a dislocated hip, one girl fell on her face, nose hitting floor first, another wasn't caught properly and landed on another girl damaging her neck, that's just in the last couple of months. We've had this one injury in five years. Non contact grappling... roflmao.


----------



## Twin Fist

well, Chung Li DID break Shamrock's arm with a kick.

could he do it again on purpose? doubtfull.


----------



## rframe

I think the effectiveness largely depends on who is doing the striking in self-defense.

If it's someone who has some training with fighting, knows how to make a fist, and can throw a powerful targeted punch, then that's certainly an option to deliver a lot of damage to a small area and may be appropriate for them.

For the average Joe or Jane who doesn't have much recent training and just wants to know what to do if they need to strike someone to escape a dangerous situation... I think open palm slaps to the ears and slapping/gouging motions to the eyes are the most effective thing they will do.  An untrained/unpracticed punch is probably going to be fairly ineffective, may very well injure the person trying to escape, and probably their best hope is that the attacker is simply stunned that the victim resisted at all.


----------



## mook jong man

WingChunIan said:


> mook jong man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I too was going to refrain, I was too busy laughing at the idea that you could punch and kick arms to defend against punches, lol A minute in a boxing ring or real fight, would dispel that notion and it was so humorous that I wasn't going to respond to the one inch punch stuff.
> 
> 
> I agree its not a party trick but it would seem we differ in our approach to the technique. Unfortunately the famous demo given by a WC master where he causes the student stumble backwards into a chair has given rise to a whole generation of copy cat demos that end up leading to the situation that the other poster described. When done properly (IMO) the inch punch shouldn't move the opponent backwards at all. All of the force should be into the jic seen and they should feel like you've just put your hand through their chest resulting in them simply collapsing / wobbling where they stand. A si bak of mine once did a demo where he struck a melon from contact. It rolled an inch and had no visible sign of damage other than some knuckle marks but when it was cut open the inside was mush. The same should be true of Wing Chun punches from any range, we are trying to cause damage not push the opponent away.
> agreed, it is irrelevant what the contact point is as the striking point is not the origin of the power.
> 
> true
> . Possibly but IMO the one inch punch is merely a concept to focus on developing power from the kinetic chain without withdrawing and delivering that power into the jic seen. The power can be delivered in any direction to the nearest target as practised in SNT, (the first Wing Chun form for those not ITK).
> 
> agree but people would need to know what SNT is, what its for and how its trained for this to make sense. I would also add that the one inch punch is then added to by power generation methods from CK and BJ (the second and third Wing Chun empty hand forms for those who don't study the art)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are perfectly correct WingChunIan there are two types of one inch punch.
> At the higher levels of Wing Chun just by using the mind they can decide whether to have the force spread out so as not to hurt the person or to penetrate deep inside the opponents body.
> 
> My late Sifu could do one where it knocked you back and he could also do one where you could feel it go straight through the pad and you would feel quite ill for a few minutes.
> He said the difference was in the second one he used his mind.
> 
> But if you are serious about hurting the person and with no pads or phone books in the way to spread out the force , then that person will not be moved back , they will drop where they stand.
Click to expand...


----------



## jks9199

Twin Fist said:


> well, Chung Li DID break Shamrock's arm with a kick.
> 
> could he do it again on purpose? doubtfull.



Shamrock helped in that one, too, by blocking poorly.  I know at least one other person who broke an arm in a similar manner...


----------



## K-man

Bill Mattocks said:


> Body mechanics allow for some startling things.  Our skeletal construction and musculature allows us to generate force in a variety of ways.  Some of them feel natural, some are learned behavior, and some are fairly rarely used or esoteric.
> 
> While many believe in unseen energy circulation such as chi, body mechanics does not differ in terms of describing why a given power generation method will or will not work; so chi or mechanics, it's all very understandable and clearly works.


Bill, until about 6 years ago I would have agreed 100 percent with you.  Then I was introduced to a man who could move in a way I could not believe. If asked to describe it I just say it's "weird science". He calls it "Ki" and I believe him. I have spent the last five and a half years training with him and although it is a slow process, I am slowly picking it up. It has nothing to do with bio mechanics and everything to do with the mind.  I have trained or met dozens of practitioners who claim to use Ki. In some cases they are using Ki but not in the way this guy does. What mook has outlined below is much more in line with what I have experienced.  When you are hit with Ki, or Kokyu, or Jing, it is totally different and as mook says, the feet don't move back. The body collapses down.

Keep an open mind.  I hope that one day you might experience what we are talking about.



mook jong man said:


> WingChunIan said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are perfectly correct WingChunIan there are two types of one inch punch.
> At the higher levels of Wing Chun just by using the mind they can decide whether to have the force spread out so as not to hurt the person or to penetrate deep inside the opponents body.
> 
> My late Sifu could do one where it knocked you back and he could also do one where you could feel it go straight through the pad and you would feel quite ill for a few minutes.
> He said the difference was in the second one he used his mind.
> 
> But if you are serious about hurting the person and with no pads or phone books in the way to spread out the force , then that person will not be moved back , they will drop where they stand.
> 
> 
> 
> mook, for me the test for someone who claims to use Ki is firstly that the feet don't move and second that you cannot get straight back up ready to continue. When hit this way it totally drains your energy. Just what you have described.   :asian:
Click to expand...


----------



## mook jong man

K-man said:


> Bill, until about 6 years ago I would have agreed 100 percent with you.  Then I was introduced to a man who could move in a way I could not believe. If asked to describe it I just say it's "weird science". He calls it "Ki" and I believe him. I have spent the last five and a half years training with him and although it is a slow process, I am slowly picking it up. It has nothing to do with bio mechanics and everything to do with the mind.  I have trained or met dozens of practitioners who claim to use Ki. In some cases they are using Ki but not in the way this guy does. What mook has outlined below is much more in line with what I have experienced.  When you are hit with Ki, or Kokyu, or Jing, it is totally different and as mook says, the feet don't move back. The body collapses down.
> 
> Keep an open mind.  I hope that one day you might experience what we are talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> mook jong man said:
> 
> 
> 
> mook, for me the test for someone who claims to use Ki is firstly that the feet don't move and second that you cannot get straight back up ready to continue. When hit this way it totally drains your energy. Just what you have described.   :asian:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was another one he used to do to demonstrate how relaxed he was , and how your arms should have the quality of being a "dead weight".
> 
> He would get us to all hold our arms out , and in a very relaxed fashion he would drop his arm down on our arms.
> It looked like nothing, but when you felt it , it felt like his whole bodyweight had transferred down to his arm and you had a tremendous weight dropped on your arm.
> 
> Again you would experience a bit of nausea and at least one instructor ducked off to the bathroom for a quick spew.
Click to expand...


----------



## K-man

mook jong man said:


> There was another one he used to do to demonstrate how relaxed he was , and how your arms should have the quality of being a "dead weight".
> 
> He would get us to all hold our arms out , and in a very relaxed fashion he would drop his arm down on our arms.
> It looked like nothing, but when you felt it , it felt like his whole bodyweight had transferred down to his arm and you had a tremendous weight dropped on your arm.
> 
> Again you would experience a bit of nausea and at least one instructor ducked off to the bathroom for a quick spew.


 My teacher uses 'heavy hands' in many of his techniques. The strange thing is that some of the time his "heavy hand" is actually very light and relaxed but your body just collapses to the ground. 
Mate, we can't go on talking like this. People will think we are a bit strange.  :highfive:


----------



## dancingalone

K-man said:


> My teacher uses 'heavy hands' in many of his techniques. The strange thing is that some of the time his "heavy hand" is actually very light and relaxed but your body just collapses to the ground.
> Mate, we can't go on talking like this. People will think we are a bit strange.  :highfive:



I don't think you're being strange at all.  One of the characteristics of high level martial arts is the ability to produce devastating effects even when the strike didn't look like much.  Heavy hands indeed.


----------



## K-man

dancingalone said:


> I don't think you're being strange at all.  One of the characteristics of high level martial arts is the ability to produce devastating effects even when the strike didn't look like much.  Heavy hands indeed.


Nice to have you in our club. :cheers:


----------



## WingChunIan

I don't consider myself to be a high level martial artist (far from it) but heavy hand, relaxed power and penetration to the jic seen are core to everything I've ever learned in Wing Chun. All I know is that I aim all of my strikes to the centre of the person (whether its their head or their body) not the surface and not beyondthem, the strike is relaxed and the blow is stopped by the opponent's tissues. Whether its a palm strike, punch or a strike with the fingers, thumbs or edge of the hand the ability to switch on and off combined with correct range and target (ie the jic seen) is imo what gives the results not anything mystical, but thats just me.


----------



## RTKDCMB

jks9199 said:


> Torque.
> 
> What is Torque?



Torque is cheap.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Something to consider.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20790294


----------



## GaryR

Palm strikes are much better in most cases.  For starters:  

1)  *Less risk of injury.*

2)  *Just as powerful if not more* so-- using the pisform bone (little boney bit opposite the thumb at the bottom), can put more power per sq. inch into the target, and is a more direct line of force from the ground as it eliminates the weaker metacarpels ect. from the force chain.

3) * More versatile techniques*--you can use an open hand to better parry, open/close the guard, grab, break, lock, throw, gouge, etc. If you start with a fist to strike, you have to open it again to do the foregoing.


----------



## Cyriacus

GaryR said:


> 2)  *Just as powerful if not more* so-- using the pisform bone (little boney bit opposite the thumb at the bottom), can put more power per sq. inch into the target, and is a more direct line of force from the ground as it eliminates the weaker metacarpels ect. from the force chain.



Id beg to differ - Gently smack yourself across the jaw with your knuckles, then your palm.
imo, palm strikes acknowledge that punches dont do that much damage anyway if you dont use them in sheer volume, and just take the safer approach, with a bit more versatility.


----------



## RTKDCMB

GaryR said:


> Palm strikes are much better in most cases.  For starters:
> 
> 1)  *Less risk of injury.*
> 
> 2)  *Just as powerful if not more* so-- using the pisform bone (little boney bit opposite the thumb at the bottom), can put more power per sq. inch into the target, and is a more direct line of force from the ground as it eliminates the weaker metacarpels ect. from the force chain.
> 
> 3) * More versatile techniques*--you can use an open hand to better parry, open/close the guard, grab, break, lock, throw, gouge, etc. If you start with a fist to strike, you have to open it again to do the foregoing.



1) Debatable - You would have to consider severity and type of injury, technique and experience of the striker and type and extent of conditioning. A badly sprained wrist from a palm strike when hitting a punching bag or kicking shield or accidentally striking too far up the hand is a real possibility. I sprained my wrist once and I found that palm pushups were more painful than knuckle pushups at the time.

2) Comes down to technique as to which is more powerful and is quite subjective. The fist is a much more compact structure than the open hand and you can tension the arm a lot more with a closed fist. Striking with the pisform bone can easily lead to a glancing blow. The knuckles also spread out the force a lot less than the palm since there is very little padding between skin and bone on the knuckles as compared to the palm and therefore greater pressure is applied with the punch. One less joint to fail with a palm strike but the impact  pressure is less for the same amount of force.

3) Yes, however closing the fist for a block prevents the fingers getting jammed and sprained by a kick or strike.


----------



## mook jong man

I have to agree with GaryR here.
Generally speaking the closer the impact tool is to the power source ie the body , the greater the force.
This is one of the reasons elbow strikes can be so destructive , the striking tool is closer to the shoulder joint.
The more joints there are involved in the action the more potential there is  for the leakage of force.

The weak link in the punch is the wrist , if the wrist is not properly kept firm on impact , power will be lost as the wrist slightly buckles.
With the palm strike the wrist joint is eliminated , the power comes straight from the elbow , through the forearm and out through the heel of the palm.
Of course with everything there is a downside and with a palm strike you get slightly less range than with a punch.


----------



## GaryR

RTKDCMB said:


> 1) Debatable - You would have to consider severity and type of injury, technique and experience of the striker and type and extent of conditioning. A badly sprained wrist from a palm strike when hitting a punching bag or kicking shield or accidentally striking too far up the hand is a real possibility. I sprained my wrist once and I found that palm pushups were more painful than knuckle pushups at the time.



The several Ortho's I consulted on the topic did not think it too debatable.  The knuckles are easier to break (and metacarpals), than the wrist/palm. Palm pushups were more painful because the force/push point was closer to your wrist--the injured part.  



RTKDCMB said:


> 2) Comes down to technique as to which is more powerful and is quite subjective. The fist is a much more compact structure than the open hand and you can tension the arm a lot more with a closed fist. Striking with the pisform bone can easily lead to a glancing blow. The knuckles also spread out the force a lot less than the palm since there is very little padding between skin and bone on the knuckles as compared to the palm and therefore greater pressure is applied with the punch. One less joint to fail with a palm strike but the impact  pressure is less for the same amount of force.



The pisform bone I described is just as compact as the fist, and even a single knuckle, there is also about the same amount of skin over it as the knuckles, some callous also builds after awhile.   Glancing blow?  Hmm, I've never experienced that, even with a lot of pad/bag/sparring work (and real encounters).  On spreading the force out...again see pisiform bone.  Also the palm heel in general (or palm edge), really isn't much larger of a surface area than a few knuckles.  The impact pressure is not less, if anything, its more--again closer to the force chain, like mook said--see elbow. 

Also you don't want to "tension the arm more" [sic].  The more relaxed the arm is, the faster it goes, the more versatile it is, plus it has more tactile sensitivity, and more force can be transferred through it.  You just made another argument for me that I left out, thanks.  



RTKDCMB said:


> 3) Yes, however closing the fist for a block prevents the fingers getting jammed and sprained by a kick or strike.



Sure, but with a tad bit of proper training on hand position and palm strikes this risk is easily mitigated, you shouldn't be trying to block kicks with your fingers/hands/fists anyhow, if you are, get a new teacher.  Nonetheless the extreme comparable versatility outweighs this risk.  

Thanks for the discussion.

Best,

G


----------



## RTKDCMB

GaryR said:


> The several Ortho's I consulted on the topic did not think it too debatable.  The knuckles are easier to break (and metacarpals), than the wrist/palm. Palm pushups were more painful because the force/push point was closer to your wrist--the injured part.  G



Pisiforms are also an injury that can occur,
http://www.uptodate.com/contents/pisiform-fractures#subscribeMessage



GaryR said:


> Also you don't want to "tension the arm more" [sic].  The more relaxed the arm is, the faster it goes, the more versatile it is, plus it has more tactile sensitivity, and more force can be transferred through it.  You just made another argument for me that I left out, thanks.G



you misunderstood me. The tension is only at the point of impact, the arm must be relaxed until then to generate the maximum velocity



GaryR said:


> Sure, but with a tad bit of proper training on hand position and palm strikes this risk is easily mitigated, you shouldn't be trying to block kicks with your fingers/hands/fists anyhow, if you are, get a new teacher.  Nonetheless the extreme comparable versatility outweighs this risk.
> 
> Thanks for the discussion.
> 
> Best,
> 
> G



Of course you don't block kicks with your fingers/hands/fists, that would be silly. You block with the forearm, but in the action of blocking you can sometimes get caught by a leg at then wrong time (mainly occurred as a color belt, extremely rare nowadays) or on an arm or item of clothing. Palm strikes are great and everything but not great enough for me to abandon punching when it works so well.


----------



## RTKDCMB

mook jong man said:


> This is one of the reasons elbow strikes can be so destructive , the striking tool is closer to the shoulder joint.



Two of the other reasons: The elbow is a very large, strong and hard bone, and the striking tool is close to the axis of rotation of the striking action.



mook jong man said:


> The weak link in the punch is the wrist , if the wrist is not properly kept firm on impact , power will be lost as the wrist slightly buckles.



A very good reason for knuckle pushups, strength training and conditioning. With proper training and conditioning injuries from punching can be significantly reduced and unless you are planning on getting into physical altercations everyday they are not really such a huge issue. In nearly 26 years of training and 1000s of students I have only ever seen or heard of 2  broken hands/wrists from punching and all from color belts  breaking boards and tiles.


----------



## GaryR

RTKDCMB said:


> Pisiforms are also an injury that can occur,
> http://www.uptodate.com/contents/pisiform-fractures#subscribeMessage



Correct, no part of the human body is immune to injury. Not even the steel plate and screws in my wrist that mended perfectly aligned breaks--my artificial conditioning by fire so to speak!  But that's a story for another day.




RTKDCMB said:


> you misunderstood me. The tension is only at the point of impact, the arm must be relaxed until then to generate the maximum velocity



Sorry, I did misunderstand.  But even at that point I think being too tense is stuffing your own power.





RTKDCMB said:


> Of course you don't block kicks with your fingers/hands/fists, that would be silly. You block with the forearm, but in the action of blocking you can sometimes get caught by a leg at then wrong time (mainly occurred as a color belt, extremely rare nowadays) or on an arm or item of clothing. Palm strikes are great and everything but not great enough for me to abandon punching when it works so well.



Very true, it's a rare newb mistake.  Hence, why the extreme versatility of the open hand is preferred.  As an aside I would prefer to not have to even block a kick with a forearm--of course one may have to if the kick is much above the waist.  But, before that happens you should have moved in to strike, and shouldn't have to.  

Punching is a tool like any other, nobody should abandon it all-together.  But I can tell you for a fact that an open hand is more versatile, it allows for more options during combat, and just because you personally do not know how to reap the benefits, that fact remains.  The vast majority of your training is TKD, so I wouldn't expect you to understand or be comfortable with it.  Go with what works for you, but do keep an open mind for learning to use new tools and make them work as well, I would recommend Baguazhang.

Best,

G


----------



## RTKDCMB

GaryR said:


> As an aside I would prefer to not have to even block a kick with a forearm--of course one may have to if the kick is much above the waist.  But, before that happens you should have moved in to strike, and shouldn't have to.



Moving in to strike is one option. There are some kicks that should only be blocked as a last resort. Blocks can accomplish many things, you can attack the attacking limb, go into a grab or block so as to place the opponent into a position so that it is more difficult for them to continue the attack (so that their back is towards you for example) I can tell you that a low section block has saved me from a kick to the groin in real situations more than once.



GaryR said:


> Punching is a tool like any other, nobody should abandon it all-together.  But I can tell you for a fact that an open hand is more versatile, it allows for more options during combat, and just because you personally do not know how to reap the benefits, that fact remains.  The vast majority of your training is TKD, so I wouldn't expect you to understand or be comfortable with it.  Go with what works for you, but do keep an open mind for learning to use new tools and make them work as well, I would recommend Baguazhang.
> 
> Best,
> 
> G



Actually there are a great many open hand techniques in the art I study, such as knife hand and reverse knife hand strikes, palm heel strikes, spear finger thrust back hand strikes, they actually outnumber closed fist techniques. I can assure you that I do know how to reap the benefits from open hand techniques, am comfortable with them and understand them very well. Punch, back fist, knifehand and reverse knife hand strikes comprise the majority of my offensive hand techniques with palm strikes and elbows used less often. I certainly agree that open hand techniques are more versatile, I simply disagree that palm strikes are much better for most situations than fists. A palm may be a more structurally sound weapon than a fist but a fist is a harder weapon which why I use both in different situations.


----------



## jks9199

RTKDCMB said:


> I certainly agree that open hand techniques are more versatile, I simply disagree that palm strikes are much better for most situations than fists. A palm may be a more structurally sound weapon than a fist but a fist is a harder weapon which why I use both in different situations.


Use hard weapons against soft targets; use soft weapons against hard targets.  Palms and fists both have places and uses.  They're not always interchangeable.


----------



## grumpywolfman

I need to invest some serious bag time to reprogram my reflexes: I prefer to use open-hand techniques to the head, and closed fists to the body. However, I reacted with a vertical right fist when a guy with a big mouth rushed me earlier this year, granted I knocked him out with just the one hit; but my wrist was very sore for a couple of weeks afterwards, and it left scars from his teeth on my top two fingers (proximal flanges). A couple of weeks of not being able to use my dominate hand is NOT ideal at all, especially if I was an officer or soldier in combat for example. A palm strike would have redirected his head just fine, and drove him backwards to create distance without a knockout being necessary. Because as I'm sure you guys already know, if you redirect your opponents head, his body will follow. Muscle-memory/fighting-reflexes goes back to the cliche of "how you train is how you fight" in my opinion :asian:


----------



## Cyriacus

grumpywolfman said:


> I need to invest some serious bag time to reprogram my reflexes: I prefer to use open-hand techniques to the head, and closed fists to the body. However, I reacted with a vertical right fist when a guy with a big mouth rushed me earlier this year, granted I knocked him out with just the one hit; but my wrist was very sore for a couple of weeks afterwards, and it left scars from his teeth on my top two fingers (proximal flanges). A couple of weeks of not being able to use my dominate hand is NOT ideal at all, especially if I was an officer or soldier in combat for example. A palm strike would have redirected his head just fine, and drove him backwards to create distance without a knockout being necessary. Because as I'm sure you guys already know, if you redirect your opponents head, his body will follow. Muscle-memory/fighting-reflexes goes back to the cliche of "how you train is how you fight" in my opinion :asian:



Mate, if you palmed an oncoming person in the head, itll probably introduce his brain to his skull _more_, not _less_. Its like, a really hard push.


----------



## grumpywolfman

Cyriacus said:


> Mate, if you palmed an oncoming person in the head, itll probably introduce his brain to his skull _more_, not _less_. Its like, a really hard push.



You're probably right, it was a stop hit.


----------



## Koshiki

I am most comfortable at close range, and I like playing guitar. Also I still have scars on my knuckles from, among other things a kid's braces 10 years ago in the 8th grade. I like palm strikes, punching things hurts!


----------



## RTKDCMB

Zack Cart said:


> I am most comfortable at close range, and I like playing guitar. Also I still have scars on my knuckles from, among other things a kid's braces 10 years ago in the 8th grade. I like palm strikes, punching things hurts!



That's why you shouldn't punch someone in the mouth.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

I haven't read through all nine pages, so this may already have been addressed.  If not, here goes.  From a SD perspective, an open hand strike to the face is preferable;


Closed hand runs the risk of self injury i.e. boxers fracture.  This will limit options concerning manual dexterity i.e. operating a cell phone to call for help, accessing and operating a firearm (both in firing, loading, reloading and clearing a malfunction), using a concealed or improvised weapon or something as 'simple' as using keys to lock a door or start a car.  In short, it limits SD options depending upon the severity of the self injury.
An open wound i.e. cutting your knuckles on their teeth/bone structure now opens you up to blood borne pathogen.
You limit your strength and reaction time with a closed fist.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Kong Soo Do said:


> I haven't read through all nine pages, so this may already have been addressed.  If not, here goes.  From a SD perspective, an open hand strike to the face is preferable;
> 
> 
> Closed hand runs the risk of self injury i.e. boxers fracture.  This will limit options concerning manual dexterity i.e. operating a cell phone to call for help, accessing and operating a firearm (both in firing, loading, reloading and clearing a malfunction), using a concealed or improvised weapon or something as 'simple' as using keys to lock a door or start a car.  In short, it limits SD options depending upon the severity of the self injury.





You know what a boxers fracture means to me? You don't know how to punch. A properly delivered punch is unlikely to fracture the carpals. The risk of fracturing the navicular with a palm strike is the same, or as close as makes no difference.



Kong Soo Do said:


> An open wound i.e. cutting your knuckles on their teeth/bone structure now opens you up to blood borne pathogen.





Identical risk exists with open hand strikes. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> You limit your strength and reaction time with a closed fist.



Huh? This sentence no sense makes.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Dirty Dog said:


> You know what a boxers fracture means to me? You don't know how to punch. A properly delivered punch is unlikely to fracture the carpals. The risk of fracturing the navicular with a palm strike is the same, or as close as makes no difference.



I don't agree.  Professional boxers, even with their hands taped and wearing gloves can break their hand in various ways.  You can toss in hyper-extending your wrist as well.  One can know how to punch correctly and still cause self injury because they have no control of the movement of the attacker.  Too many variables and just isn't a prudent choice.  Many martial artists 'think' they know how to punch properly but they don't.  Any punch that takes our hand out of a neutral alignment position is incorrect and increases the chance of self injury.  

A palm heel strike is less likely to cause self injury which is why WWII combatives, L.E., corrections etc teach it as a preference to a closed fist.  A closed fist can be useful to other areas of the body, but the head isn't one of them.  



> Identical risk exists with open hand strikes.



Not really.  Whereas the target area of a typical punch is the nose, mouth or side of the head (which may or may not be the point of actual impact due to the head being a small moving target) the palm heel, or chin jab is more likely to connect with the actual target as it comes in from a lower angle which is harder to detect and defend against.  And usually one is closer when delivering such a strike which again lessens the reaction time of the attacker.  



> Huh? This sentence no sense makes.



Yes, it does.  Tony Blauer does an excellent job of demonstrating this in his S.P.E.A.R. seminars as well as Ken Good and the late Peter Boatman.  All are (were) noted LEO and military instructors.  The range of motion increases when the fingers are extended, one example being a vertical or horizontal elbow strike.  Closing the fist limits this range of motion.  ROM can and does effect speed and strength of a strike.  Closing the fist contracts certain muscles which also effects speed.  Doesn't mean you go into slow motion when you clench your fist, but it does contract muscles in the arm.  The JAMA had an excellent article many years ago on this topic.  I can't quote off the top of my head the statistics, but the striking power of a punch vs. an open hand strike (palm heel/chin jab) was measured and the open hand was quite a bit more powerful.  If I have the opportunity I'll try to dig up the article and quote the information.  

In short, LE does teach closed fist strikes to certain areas, the head is not one of them except for reactionary strikes.  I can't speak for all LE training, but I have trained at a regional training center that covers quite a bit of territory and multiple agencies.  

Punch to the head if you like, it isn't a prudent idea on many levels.


----------



## Kframe

Im hoping someone with experience like KSD will chime in but I have stumbled across another problem with closed fist punching to the face.  Here is a post I made on this very subject on another forum. Ill copy and paste it here.. 

This is honestly a conundrum I never thought I would be thinking about. After all, boxing is my base and punching things in the face is second nature for me. At least I thought it was. Then one day I was doing some random practice and punched a target that would represent someone in the 6foot+ range of height. Me being all of 5'8". 

That is when I noticed that, I don't know nearly enough about wrist alignment and knuckle alignment and angle of impact with regards to bare knuckle punching. 
Boxing gloves, take away the knuckles and turns the whole hand into the punching surface. Removing the knuckles from the process. 

Punching things at my jaw height and lower no problem finding the correct knuckles. Anything above that was and is problematic. For starters, say my target is high up, around 6foot or taller, I have to punch up. During the proper fist, I find that the joints that my thumb wraps around impact first. Which is HORRIDLY bad and a cause for broken hand and fingers. 

First thing I tried was leveling my fist with my forearm. That helped to a point, but as height increased, I found the bend in my wrist to get quite extreme, to the end of its mobility. This makes that a weak position and would likely break the wrist. 

I have tried the odd vertical punch my coach suggested, were instead of the last 3 knuckles like in WC, you use the first 2 like normal. It 2 requires a bend in the wrist. Coach feels it is a safer bet then a normal horizontal punch. 

Now all this was predicated on the fact that my targets are not tilting downward but at flat plain. Picture a face not looking down, or chin tucked like boxers recommend, but straight out. In that situation I cant find a suitable method of punching that will suffice. Hard to train face punching out of a boxer... 

Things change if the target is at a angle downwards, makes it so that its easier for the correct knuckles to encounter their target. 

I welcome advice. I hope my journey so far helps someone. This was just food for thought for all here. You need to practice walk through slow touch contact punching on a taller, significantly taller target then you. So you can figure out the correct way for you to hit him in the face with out screwing up your lower finger joints. Which is were im finding my punches impacting on a flat surface. 

I just hope this helps someone, and gives the decidedly very experienced people here something to think and teach on. 

My teacher suggest to use palm strikes, feel unnatural to me, and the odd vertical fist for high up punching. He also suggests not punching up that way at all. 
Im sure with time ill figure it out, but as I said earlier, suggestions and advice are welcome.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Kong Soo Do said:


> One can know how to punch correctly and still cause self injury because they have no control of the movement of the attacker.


 
True but they do have control over their conditioning, accuracy and precision.



Kong Soo Do said:


> the palm heel, or chin jab is more likely to connect with the actual target as it comes in from a lower angle which is harder to detect and defend against.  And usually one is closer when delivering such a strike which again lessens the reaction time of the attacker.



A punch can be used as a chin jab and an uppercut comes in from a lower angle which is harder to detect and defend against too.




Kong Soo Do said:


> The range of motion increases when the fingers are extended, one example being a vertical or horizontal elbow strike.  Closing the fist limits this range of motion.



I have never seen, experienced or even heard of the range of motion for an elbow strike being affected in any way by the fist being open or closed. Keeping the fingers open lessens the amount of tension that can be applied to the forearm as a whole. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> Closing the fist contracts certain muscles which also effects speed.



You can clench your fist without applying much tension until you hit your target, that is correct punching technique for many arts.


----------



## grumpywolfman

Kframe said:


> My teacher suggest to use palm strikes, feel unnatural to me, and the odd vertical fist for high up punching. He also suggests not punching up that way at all.
> I'm sure with time ill figure it out, but as I said earlier, suggestions and advice are welcome.



I totally agree with your instructor. It's easy to recognize this by standing facing a wall. Hold out a horizontal fist at your face level or higher against the wall without bending your wrist. As you noted earlier, it will be the finger joints that contact first NOT your knuckles. Slide your horizontal fist down the wall while maintaining proper wrist alignment to where your knuckles now hit comfortably, and you will see that at about your solar plexus level the knuckles finally make contact. Now try this same process with a vertical punch. You will notice that you can now get full contact with the fist at head height. Now try doing some palm strikes against the wall. Not so bad huh? Now try a horizontal fist - ouch right? Now try a vertical fist - much better than then the horizontal fist, but still not as much force or body weight can be transferred into as a palm strike. However, using the Wing Chun vertical punching and applying an understanding of the importance of the connection between relaxing and continuity (Chi) - with practice, you could be able to even chain punch against a solid object without breaking your hands (of course I don't recommend this); because its about transfer of energy not "hitting" with your hands with brute force.

Continuity is important in this concept - where the "kink" in the hose is so to speak, or tension in the body - then that is where the energy will exit. For example, even if a person has good contact with the fist to a solid object (a skull) and the wrist is out of alignment, its possible that he could fracture more than one of the metacarpals on impact. Hold a ruler on top of your fist. Direct your fist downward, and you will notice the ruler lift off the wrist and forearm - this is the path that the energy will exit your body. I know, because I've learned these things the hard way. Palm strikes to the head have much less chance of damaging your hands because you are bypassing all of these other small bones and joints. Another bonus of palm strikes to the face is that your fingers have the potential of coming in contact with your opponent's eyes.

It takes great skill and self discipline to maintain calm for proper structure and continuity under real-life stressed situations. It is much easier in my opinion, to stick to gross body movements and simple strikes that require less dedication to master. I recommend using palm strikes, knife hand, or hammer fist for strikes to the head, neck, and clavicles. And using closed fists for the lower body for strikes to targets such as the liver, kidneys, or solar plexus.


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## Koshiki

RTKDCMB said:


> That's why you shouldn't punch someone in the mouth.



Also, it's just not a very nice thing to do...


----------



## FullPotentialMA

Although prominent in many martial arts today, punches are relatively "new" in them being the "prominent" strike. There are many reasons why punches, especially straight punches, are not a good fit for striking the opponent's face. If you think about it, the human face is shaped a little like a plow -- the sides of the face are angled backwards. A punch is very likely to "skim" the face, and although it will generate some damage, it is not "optimal". An open palm is more versatile, and "conforms" better to the shape of the human face.
Also, for beginners, making a good fist (with proper alignment of the wrist) is not easy. At our martial arts studio in San Diego, we recommend that beginners use open hand strikes until they master the punch.


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## Kong Soo Do

RTKDCMB said:


> True but they do have control over their conditioning, accuracy and precision.



Yes, the same can be said for any body part used as a striking surface i.e. the shin.  A lot of MA's kick with the impact point of their bodies being the top of the foot or instep.  No a good idea and can cause self-injury.  Conditioning your shins however brings the kick to a new level of damage-infliction potential.



> A punch can be used as a chin jab and an uppercut comes in from a lower angle which is harder to detect and defend against too.



Agreed, and I would say it is a higher % punch as well.  Though one still needs to be concerned with an element of self-injury.



> I have never seen, experienced or even heard of the range of motion for  an elbow strike being affected in any way by the fist being open or  closed.



Many martial arts don't teach an open hand while delivering an elbow strike, unfortunately.  Keeping the hand open, whether vertical or horizontal will allow a greater ROM and allow an elbow strike even if your just a couple of inches away from your attacker i.e. you're in the clinch and/or nose-to-nose.  Basically, where the flattened hand goes the elbow will follow.  It is the preferred method of elbow striking used by our (and other) agencies and has proven out extremely effective in uses-of-force.  The most graphic for this discussion was two elbow strikes delivered by a Deputy to a EDP bad guy while inside his own cruiser while on top of the EDP cross-ways across the seats.  This is like fighting in a phone booth on its side.  

Saved his life.


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## RTKDCMB

Kong Soo Do said:


> Yes, the same can be said for any body part used as a striking surface i.e. the shin.  A lot of MA's kick with the impact point of their bodies being the top of the foot or instep.  No a good idea and can cause self-injury.  Conditioning your shins however brings the kick to a new level of damage-infliction potential.



In the art I study the most common striking area for a turning (roundhouse) kick is the ball of the foot, we only use the instep to the legs or if the target is at a 90 degree angle and the shins if we are a bit closer to the target.


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## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> I don't agree.  Professional boxers, even with their hands taped and wearing gloves can break their hand in various ways.  You can toss in hyper-extending your wrist as well.  One can know how to punch correctly and still cause self injury because they have no control of the movement of the attacker.  Too many variables and just isn't a prudent choice.  Many martial artists 'think' they know how to punch properly but they don't.  Any punch that takes our hand out of a neutral alignment position is incorrect and increases the chance of self injury.


Sadly, you don't know the history of boxing particularly well.  don't feel bad, most people who make such observations don't either.



> A palm heel strike is less likely to cause self injury which is why WWII combatives, L.E., corrections etc teach it as a preference to a closed fist.  A closed fist can be useful to other areas of the body, but the head isn't one of them.


How familiar are you with WWII Combatives manuals?  There's plenty of closed fist stuff in them.



> Not really.  Whereas the target area of a typical punch is the nose, mouth or side of the head (which may or may not be the point of actual impact due to the head being a small moving target) the palm heel, or chin jab is more likely to connect with the actual target as it comes in from a lower angle which is harder to detect and defend against.  And usually one is closer when delivering such a strike which again lessens the reaction time of the attacker.


You also lose 4" of reach as opposed to the closed fist.



> Punch to the head if you like, it isn't a prudent idea on many levels.


Or, you know, learn to work with your body's natural reaction, and learn how to punch without injuring yourself.

Here's an article which might help:
http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/breakyourhand/breakyourhand.html

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

And another article from here on site: Palmheel or Fist? A New Insight (HARD WIRING AND PALM STRIKES by Mark Hatmaker 2004).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Kong Soo Do

lklawson said:


> Sadly, you don't know the history of boxing particularly well.  don't feel bad, most people who make such observations don't either.



Kirk, I'm afraid you're lacking in the history of boxing as well, including bare knuckle boxing which incidentally has little to do with practical self defense.  The reality is that even professional boxers injure their hands in and out of the ring.  That's just a fact.  Taped and gloved in the ring or bare in a bar fight, they've injured themselves.  From a self defense perspective, the gist of the thread, a punch isn't prudent for the reasons I've listed.  Professionals in the SD community don't generally advocate closed fist punches to the head, again for all the reasons I've listed.  So you have examples from the sport community why it isn't a good idea for SD, you have examples from the professional community why it isn't a good idea for SD.  



> How familiar are you with WWII Combatives manuals?  There's plenty of closed fist stuff in them.



I'm very familiar with them.  I don't think you are though.  And punches aren't to the head generally.  Soldiers wear helmets, yet another reason to not punch to the head.  That is why the chin jab is THE premier head strike as proliferated by Fairbairn, Sykes, O'Neill, Nelson, Cestari etc.



> You also lose 4" of reach as opposed to the closed fist.



This is the opposite of reality.  ROM is gained, thus reach with an open hand.  



> Or, you know, learn to work with your body's natural reaction, and learn how to punch without injuring yourself.



Again, the opposite of reality.  The bodies natural reaction is not with a closed fist.  Flinch response consistently demonstrates upraised arms with an open hand.  

And your statement of 'learn to punch without injuring yourself' is a fallacy.  Tell that to all the boxers and martial artists that injured themselves by punching someone in the head.  One cannot control the circumstances involved in a chaotic, realworld fight.  We're not talking about dojo/dojang training that lacks realistic application.  We're talking about real world, practical self defense.  

Open hand strikes lack many of the dangers of a closed fist to the head while demonstrating benefits that the closed fist to the head cannot equal.  

With no offense intended, I would challenge your credibility with real world altercations, both successful and unsuccessful over the spectrum of users to include military, LE, corrections, EP agents, corporate security, bouncers (professional) and private citizens who have actually used their training against real, determined, resisting attackers.


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## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> Kirk, I'm afraid you're lacking in the history of boxing as well,


Damn.  Then you should probably warn my students that I'm a fraud, 'cuz they think I've been personally studying and teaching pre-Marquis of Queensberry style boxing (particularly Broughton era) for years.  You should also tell all of the antique boxing manuals that I've republished that I didn't actually read (or republish) them.  You should also warn all of the folks such as noted HEMA instructor Terry Brown, noted British Karateka Iain Abernethy, or noted HEMA instructor and stage combat specialist Tony Wolf (martial arts designer from Jackson's "Lord of the Rings"), that I'm a fraud because they've all endorsed the book I wrote on grappling in historic pugilism.



> including bare knuckle boxing which incidentally has little to do with practical self defense.


Which is why every last damn book written on the topic, pre-MoQ, has a section on how boxing is crap for self defense.  Oh, wait, the other thing.  They all talk about how boxing is *great* for self defense.  In fact, many of them call boxing "The Science of Self Defense" and similar names.



> The reality is that even professional boxers injure their hands in and out of the ring.  That's just a fact.  Taped and gloved in the ring or bare in a bar fight, they've injured themselves.  From a self defense perspective, the gist of the thread, a punch isn't prudent for the reasons I've listed.  Professionals in the SD community don't generally advocate closed fist punches to the head, again for all the reasons I've listed.  So you have examples from the sport community why it isn't a good idea for SD, you have examples from the professional community why it isn't a good idea for SD.


Translation: I didn't actually read the article that Kirk posted entitled, "Won't You Break Your Hand?" written by western martial artist and M.D., Keith Myers.



> I'm very familiar with them.  I don't think you are though.  And punches aren't to the head generally.


I've only read maybe 30 or 50 of them, personally republished one, and only managed to study with 2 or 3 of the guys in their direct lineage.



> Soldiers wear helmets, yet another reason to not punch to the head.  That is why the chin jab is THE premier head strike as proliferated by Fairbairn, Sykes, O'Neill, Nelson, Cestari etc.


Cestari was an advocate of the edge-of-hand blow not palm-heal and he liked closed fist strikes too, particularly the backfist (ask me how I know. hint, it involves some of his direct students and I).  Fairbairn & Co. wrote extensively about the "convulsive" grip and how, under stress, the soldier frequently reverts to that instinctively; very important to their handgun and knife methods.



> This is the opposite of reality.  ROM is gained, thus reach with an open hand.


Did you really just claim that a palm-heal has greater reach than a fist?!?!



> Again, the opposite of reality.  The bodies natural reaction is not with a closed fist.  Flinch response consistently demonstrates upraised arms with an open hand.


Both the CQC instructors you've referenced disagree with you (when they discuss the convulsive grip) and science (re: the Moro Reflex) as well as even primate studies.  Did you not look at the Hatmaker article?



> And your statement of 'learn to punch without injuring yourself' is a fallacy.


Because 300 years of European Bare Knuckle Boxing, 600 years of Okinawan Karate, and 1,000+ years of Chinese fighting ares are all just wrong.  



> Tell that to all the boxers and martial artists that injured themselves by punching someone in the head.


I frequently do.  "Learn how to punch without having your fist and wrist supported by wraps."



> Open hand strikes lack many of the dangers of a closed fist to the head while demonstrating benefits that the closed fist to the head cannot equal.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20790294



> With no offense intended, I would challenge your credibility with real world altercations, both successful and unsuccessful over the spectrum of users to include military, LE, corrections, EP agents, corporate security, bouncers (professional) and private citizens who have actually used their training against real, determined, resisting attackers.


My day job is on Wright-Patterson AFB.  Guess what profession most of my students hail from?  I also get to train with cops and correctional officers regularly too.

No offense intended, but maybe you should challenge your preconceptions about palm heal and fist and, in particular, whether or not someone who disagrees with you automatically lacks "credibility."


----------



## Kframe

Kirk, in your last few posts you have given me like a weeks worth of items to study. I personally don't know which to believe but I do have a anecdotal story. My personal friend is 62years old. He has 2 golden gloves and has a record of 75 wins 25 losses.  He has been in 4 street altercations and came out on top handily. One of those was against a guy 75lbs bigger then him and taller.  I asked him how many times he broke his hand in all his non gloved fights and he told me none, and never hand a problem with his hand either. 

My guess is, you may have a point about wrist alignment and proper punching technique, evidenced by my still worthy opponent and friend.  He told me he kept his shots to the nose and center face area and only jabbed. He spent most of his power shots on body shots, liver and solar plexus shots. 

I don't know what the truth is, but I bet it lies in the middle. I think that any martial artist needs to do bone conditioning. It isn't fool proof, but it does give a little margin of error.


----------



## Kframe

Hey Kirk, that article you posted about wont you break your hand, I cant get it to come up on my screen. When I click the link the page just goes white and nothing loads.


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## Kong Soo Do

lklawson said:


> Damn.  Then you should probably warn my students that I'm a fraud, 'cuz they think I've been personally studying and teaching pre-Marquis of Queensberry style boxing (particularly Broughton era) for years.  You should also tell all of the antique boxing manuals that I've republished that I didn't actually read (or republish) them.  You should also warn all of the folks such as noted HEMA instructor Terry Brown, noted British Karateka Iain Abernethy, or noted HEMA instructor and stage combat specialist Tony Wolf (martial arts designer from Jackson's "Lord of the Rings"), that I'm a fraud because they've all endorsed the book I wrote on grappling in historic pugilism.



I think you're getting yourself worked up here Kirk.  No one has called you a fraud.  But yes, I do question your credibility on this particular topic.  Reading  and republishing books is commendable, I'm very happy for you.  That doesn't make you credible in this area.  Working on an Air Force base is commendable, thank you for your service.  I was stationed at both Incirlik AB and McGuire AFB in the 80's and taught martial arts on both.  That doesn't make you credible in this area.  The fact that you may teach L.E. and corrections is commendable, but doesn't make you credible in this area.  Absolutely no offense intended despite you taking obvious offense.  Teaching L.E. and corrections doesn't make you familiar with all of their needs.  And unfortunately L.E. and corrections is often times easily 'wowed' with martial arts and blindly accepts everything at face value.  Case in point, Royce Gracie has taught at our regional training center which services a plethora of agencies in our state (as well as out-of-state).  In the beginning everyone was 'wowed' cause BJJ was the flavor of the month.  And of course what happens in the octagon is a good indicator of self-defense right?  Wrong.  He very soon after had to greatly modify what he taught because most of what he taught was useless...or dangerous for officers.  Great in a controlled environment, lousy in real life.

So I'm not saying you suck or you're a fraud and you shouldn't take what I'm saying as such.  But teaching a closed fist punch to the head for self defense is frankly not a good thing.  Not even a little bit.  

I'm glad you've trained with some in WWII circles, you aren't the only one.  But I think you've viewed the teaching through the wrong glass.  Punching the head in a controlled environment is just dandy.  Doing so in real life is bad teaching/training.  If that pisses you off then so be it.  Not meant to be in your face, but it is what it is.  I DO the job as well as TEACH the job not just read books (which I do as well).  Learning to punch without injuring yourself is fine and dandy...till something happens and you bust your hand up cause things didn't go like it did in the school.  Real life is funny like that.  



> Both the CQC instructors you've referenced disagree with you...



Funny, I've cited more than two and no, they didn't disagree with me.  Their teachings influenced my opinion on the topic.  And of the two of us...I know them personally and you don't.  



> Cestari was an advocate of the edge-of-hand blow not palm-heal and he liked closed fist strikes too...



In case you aren't aware, the EOH is an open hand strike which falls under the topic of the thread.  He was also very BIG on the chin jab just like Nelson.  (hint...ask me how I know that.  Oh, I'll tell you anyway, I've talked with a LOT of people that knew both including Nelson's daughter who was a member of my board).

Bottom line is this, you continue to punch to the head.  Continue to do it (assuming that you've actually fought real world determined attackers on multiple occasions and not just in a school) until the unexpected happens and you bust up your hand and aren't able to access your firearm (assuming you carry one for a living) or your intermediate weapons (assuming you carry them for a living) or access your radio for back up (assuming you carry one for a living) or any other tool that an officer or for that matter a civilian may need to utilize under duress in a crisis situation.  Let me know how it works out for you then.  Oh, I forgot that it isn't possible for you to injure your hand.  

As for me and the circles I train in, we'll go with what works in real life and doesn't open us up to potential self-injury while involved in a chaotic, real world altercation.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Additionally, if you make a close examination of _Kill or Get Killed_ by Applegate or _Get Tough_ by Fairbairn you'll see a distinct lack of closed fist punches.  You'll see the chin jab and edge-of-hand strikes.  Fairbairn btw was a police officer the same as O'Neill in addition to holding Dan rank.  They both also had extensive CMA training.

Nelson and Cestari advocated the chin jab and EOH as well as those that they've directly trained.  Again, I have extensive experience with many of these folks, some of which are also 'on the job'.  

And finally, the elbow strike is also used extensively by those in SD circles including those I've already cited.

Peace.


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## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> I think you're getting yourself worked up here Kirk.  No one has called you a fraud.


Then you need to re-read what you wrote.  Have some third party read it.



> But yes, I do question your credibility on this particular topic.


Then we have no point of commonality to build upon.



> So I'm not saying you suck or you're a fraud and you shouldn't take what I'm saying as such.  But teaching a closed fist punch to the head for self defense is frankly not a good thing.  Not even a little bit.


You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with several millennia of fighters who went before.



> Funny, I've cited more than two and no, they didn't disagree with me.  Their teachings influenced my opinion on the topic.  And of the two of us...I know them personally and you don't.


You misunderstand.  'Both CQC instructors and Science.'  The ones 'you mentioned before' are parenthetical to "CQC instructors."



> In case you aren't aware, the EOH is an open hand strike


It's open hand?  Really?  Those pictures of the palm out strait must have lead me astray.  ..And yet is not a palm heel.



> He was also very BIG on the chin jab


And did several tapes on dirty boxing.



> (assuming that you've actually fought real world determined attackers on multiple occasions and not just in a school)


Nice.



> As for me and the circles I train in, we'll go with what works in real life and doesn't open us up to potential self-injury while involved in a chaotic, real world altercation.


Yup.  Only what agrees with your preconceived notions is "real life."  Everyone else has never fought and isn't an "operator" like you.  Sweet.  Thanks for enlightening me.

Good job, man.

This went into the crapper.


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## lklawson

Kframe said:


> Hey Kirk, that article you posted about wont you break your hand, I cant get it to come up on my screen. When I click the link the page just goes white and nothing loads.


Let's try it again, then.  

http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/breakyourhand/breakyourhand.html

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Kframe said:


> Kirk, in your last few posts you have given me like a weeks worth of items to study. I personally don't know which to believe but I do have a anecdotal story. My personal friend is 62years old. He has 2 golden gloves and has a record of 75 wins 25 losses.  He has been in 4 street altercations and came out on top handily. One of those was against a guy 75lbs bigger then him and taller.  I asked him how many times he broke his hand in all his non gloved fights and he told me none, and never hand a problem with his hand either.


That aligns pretty well with what I've seen and with the historic record. 



> My guess is, you may have a point about wrist alignment and proper punching technique, evidenced by my still worthy opponent and friend.  He told me he kept his shots to the nose and center face area and only jabbed. He spent most of his power shots on body shots, liver and solar plexus shots.


It's less hard to do than a lot of people think.  Yes, it takes practice.  Yes, nothing is 100%.  But it's a pretty high-percentage movement when you've trained right.



> I don't know what the truth is, but I bet it lies in the middle. I think that any martial artist needs to do bone conditioning. It isn't fool proof, but it does give a little margin of error.


Sure.  And it's not the only factor.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Kframe

Kirk thanks or PMing me that article, because I clicked your reposted link and it still just goes white and does nothing. I honestly think its my slow computer. Its just a Amd dual core e-300 apu. Not very strong.   

Honestly I hope to never be in a situation that requires me to punch someone in the face with out a glove on out side a ring/cage.. Win lose or draw, the legal and social aftermath will be devastating. What with the demonization of self defense now adays..


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## K-man

Personally I would prefer to strike to the head but in reality under pressure I think I would revert to the punch. In one of the articles Kirk has quoted there is reference to conditioning. I think that is important, whether it is makawara or heavy bag, you will build a stronger structure, which is obviously why the Okinawans place such importance on that training. Another point I agree with is the vertical fist giving a better structure to hit with. A strike to the head is vertical, a strike to the bladder is almost horizontal. Anywhere in between is somewhere between the two extremes, what the Okinawans call a natural fist. From what I have read, that type of alignment gives the strongest structure.

As to whether you can break your hand or not. Sure you can. I busted a metacarpal bone years ago with a strike to the head. One of my close friends and one of Australia's top martial artists did a lot of bodyguard and bouncer work in the 70s. He reckons he has busted every bone in his hands at some time. Now whether he knew how to strike properly in those early days or whether he too was under adrenal stress and forgot the right technique, we will never know.

I just reread the thread. What a trip down memory lane!
:asian:


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## Happy-Papi

I'm talking in general and not on the face only. I use both but I notice that I tend to use open hands a lot probably because of my training where sometimes our opponents are wearing helmets, mask and body armor. Sometimes it is so hard to find an opening because of other equipments that are blocking the way like weapons, flashlight, magazines, knife, bag, shoulder holster and harness. Just imagine landing a punch on a helmet or a corner of an M16 magazine (not fun at all). Unless that I'm sure that my opponent is not wearing something hard under his shirt, my hands are most of the times open. I rarely use blows like palm hits but use my fingers a lot for jabbing/clawing the eye and grabbing the the windpipe and also use lots of elbows, shoulder blows and headbutts. One time I punched an enemy who was wearing a Ray ban and it broke which was a waste, I'm sure that it was an original and not made by some fat guy in some back alley (knuckle got scratched because of my stupidity... should have taken it first for myself, lol!)

Even my godfather (officer) told me that we should refrain from punching because it leaves telltale marks. He said to put a telephone book on the enemy before punching,  HAHAHA! He also said that there are countries that have laws that are very strict against the use of punching so punching is not the best choice especially if it's just for some street brawl that we might be looked at as bad guys  There are even instances that punching was used for self defense but was still accused and charged because the defender punched his attacker. Sometimes laws are just too black and white and too stupid... Ex. a girl punched a guy on the face for being a perv but the girl lost the case because she threw the punch and had to pay the perv??? Can't say the name of the country but this really happened... Even threatening the attacker verbally can sometimes backfire so best to just stay silent or give nice remarks while the attacker is attacking like saying, " good evening, please don't touch my behind, may I kindly call the police, may you have a nice day", lol!

With my training in mind, I just got more relaxed with open hands and just grew up with it. Probably it is because we concentrated more on CQC-FMA and I really like twisting, stand-up grappling and throwing more than punching and kicking. Both my brothers are officers and they too studied CQC-FMA in the academy but they have their own other preferences. Our youngest (spec-ops) was a boxer so eh prefers punching. Our 2nd (a thinker) likes Tae Kwon Do so he prefers kicking. But when when we talk about our experiences over coffee, it's always back to basic which is CQC-FMA where we poke the bad guys on the face, neck crank, grapple and throw, and slam their faces to the concrete. Maybe we just have similar training and experiences and tend to use more open hand fighting than punching. As my senior said, "This is why God created jungle boots so that we wont damage our little trigger finger!" HAHAHA!


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## Kong Soo Do

Kirk, I don't know what to tell you.  Your obviously taking this personally when you should be examining what I'm saying professionally.  You may teach high liability professionals in an off duty capacity (and that's great), but you are not (according to your profile and comments) a high liability professional yourself.  Therefore it would be wise to listen, with an open mind, to those that are high liability professional and teach high liability professionals.  We do what we do, and how we do it for a reason and there is a difference between teaching from theory and teaching from experience.  

Let's start again and look at some facts:


Professional boxers, despite training and hand protection, injure their hands in the ring.  And not just head shots.  Additionally, professional boxers, without hand protection, have injured their hands in bar fights and street brawls.  Why?  Because even though they are experienced punchers and are usually well conditioned, they cannot control the chaotic movements of a fight either in the ring or on the street.
One can condition their hands and learn proper alignment and still cause self-injury because the target moves unpredictably.  The target (head or body) moving may cause the punch to land before or after anticipated.  This can change the angle or striking surface.  This is what causes injuries like sprained wrists, boxer's fractures, busted knuckles etc.  Doesn't mean the puncher isn't experienced.  Doesn't mean he isn't tough.  It does mean that 'stuff' happens in a chaotic fight that is beyond his control that can and does circumvent experience, conditioning and proper alignment.
A self injury can and will effect manual dexterity in direct proportion to the severity of the injury.  This can effect manipulation of a firearm, intermediate weapon, radio, manipulating small items like keys or a cell phone and negatively impact further self-defense.  Particularly while under duress where manual dexterity is likely to be negatively impacted already.
Self injury can also lead to blood borne pathogen exposure.  This is a concern to the average private citizen to be sure but is dramatically increased for high liability professionals who are routinely exposed to those in the drug culture or prison culture.  Both of which have high incident of blood borne pathogen potential.
A professional boxer that does injure their hands in a fight has the luxury of a ring Doctor, immediate access to medical treatment and the ability to call off the fight.  A person being mugged or an Officer defending him/herself does not have the same luxury.

A chin jab or EOH strike is effective and reduces the chance of self injury or exposure to blood borne pathogens.  That is why WWII combatives teaches them as premier strikes (again see 'Kill or Be Killed' by Applegate or 'Get Tough' by Fairbairn or the 'Little Red/Black Book of Self Defense' by Nelson or many of the WWII training era films).  

You can choose to get upset with what I'm explaining to you or you can choose to heed it.  It is up to you.  But if your teaching L.E. and corrections to punch to the head/face then you're providing them with training which is detrimental to their health and career.  Depending on the state and agency policies, head punches are a no-no due to Officer liability (as I've detailed above) not to mention public perception.  Head strikes with elbows, chin jabs etc are often authorized but not a 'punch' with the possible exception of a reactionary strike.  I can't speak for every agencies policies, but I'm familiar with quite a few.  

Peace.


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## colemcm

What about the long-term repercussions of both approaches? It may well be that either can be safely used without immediate injury, but what about years down the road? Is one more sustainable than the other?

I have no evidence to support it, but I would assume that palm strikes would cause less trauma in the long run.


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## Kong Soo Do

colemcm said:


> What about the long-term repercussions of both approaches? It may well be that either can be safely used without immediate injury, but what about years down the road? Is one more sustainable than the other?
> 
> I have no evidence to support it, but I would assume that palm strikes would cause less trauma in the long run.



Interesting question.  There are a lot of bones i.e. metacarpals, phalanges, scaphoid, trapezoid, trapezium, hamate etc.  Not to mention the connecting tissue in the wrist.  Conditioning the hand is always an option, but at what price?  Is it possible to limit manual dexterity over time?  Yes.  Is it possible to 'over-condition' the hand and thus self-injure?  Yes.  Can repeated blows to the hand (punching hard surfaces) cause a build up of damage over time that becomes evident down the road?  Yes.  Doesn't mean it 'will' happen, but it is a possibility depending on various factors.

An EOH strike can bring into play some of the bones in the hand.  A chin jab though is centralized more in the palm and places less stress of hyper-extension on the wrist than does a punch.  And with a chin jab you're not impacting with most of the bones in the 'hand' itself i.e. carpals, phalanges etc.  And what bone is affected has some meat over it, much more than the knuckles or back of the hand.  That and the likely angle of impact makes it safer.  Nothing is 100%, but it is 'safer' all things being equal.  That's why it's a well thought of strike in CQC circles.


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## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> Kirk, I don't know what to tell you.  Your obviously taking this personally when you should be examining what I'm saying professionally.


OK, fine.  Let's try this *ONE LAST TIME*.

You claim that it is dangerous and unnatural to punch with a closed fist.  You claim that palm-heel give greater range and greater safety from personal injury.  Your claim is that people who strike with the closed fist, particularly professional boxers, regularly break their hand bones.  I presented lots of *evidence* showing that these statements are not the indisputable fact that you claim.  Instead of dealing with the *evidence and facts* that I presented, you questioned my credibility.  How the hell am I not supposed to take that personally?  But I made a mistake.  I foolishly assumed that you actually were concerned about my credentials so I presented them to you.  It was a foolish mistake on my part because you aren't actually concerned about my credentials.  Rejecting my "credibility" out of hand allows you to reject the evidence presented without having to refute it.  You shoot the messenger so that you may ignore the message.

Now that I've admitted that it is a losing proposition, that I understand you are entrenched in your position and will not change, I'm going to try again one more time, despite the evident futility of it.  Why?  I'm a hopeless optimist.  I used to believe, as you do, that the closed fist was a sure way to broken bones and that the open hand, particularly the palm-heel, was the safest way to affect a linear strike.  And then I started looking at evidence and was forced to change my position because the Scientific Method beats anecdotal stories.  So there is some slim hope for you.

So here goes.

Claim:

People who strike with the closed fist regularly break their hand bones 
The palm-heel (and other open hand strikes) are more natural 
Training and conditioning do not mitigate or ameliorate the stated dangers 
The European Bare Knuckle Boxing tradition is not applicable to, nor intended for, self defense 
I am not a credible source of information on the subject 

Refutation:

People who strike with closed fist, both for a living and as amateurs, have been doing so for thousands of years.  Humans aren't particularly stupid (usually) and if the practice was so dangerous then it would have been abandoned many centuries ago.  The European Bare Knuckle Tradition lasted for centuries and didn't really end until the uniform adoption of the Marquis of Queensberry rules.  There are countless documentations of fights and manuals written by fighters from the tradition and time period.  If the danger to the hand were so great, it would have shown up in the literature, either manuals, newspaper reports, or particularly in the many works decrying the bare knuckle tradition as barbaric.  Nevertheless these warnings of dire consequences to the hands do not exist.  Out of the manuals on training only one even mentions peripherally a danger to the hands and that one is a transitional manual penned after the MoQ rules were becoming the norm.  It is simply inconceivable that no one from the Chinese, to the Okinawans, to the Europeans would fail to mention it as an unmitigated hazard.  I have provided links to many of these antique manuals up-thread. 
Striking with a closed fist is not only "natural," it is instinctive.  As was presented in the Hatmaker article I referenced, under stress humans exhibit the Moro Reflex; they clench their hands.  This has wide ranging implications for everything from unarmed fighting through firearms use (a fact which Fairbairn and Co. recognized in their firearms material).  Several years ago a LEO was cleared of wrong doing after shooting a suspect; the LEO foolishly had his finger on the trigger when a sudden noise startled him and the Moro Reflex caused him to clench his hand, pulling the trigger and discharging the firearm.  Additionally, there is the BBC article I referenced up-thread, detailing a study in the Journal of Experimental Biology which concludes that the human hand is ideally suited to both fine manipulation and clenched fist striking. 
Similar to the long history not detailing dire consequences of closed fist striking, there is a long history supporting the proposition that conditioning and proper alignment mitigate risks of injury.  The far east has a long tradition of body conditioning techniques coupled with specific training.  Likewise the European tradition equally has body conditioning and specific training techniques.  I referenced an article written by an M.D. (and also a Active Duty military) which made many of the same points and referenced historic manuals which contain the same information.  Additionally, I can add noted boxer Jack Dempsey to the list.  In his book "Championship Fighting," he specifically details fist/wrist alignment and gives illustrated examples intended for bare fist fighting.  Though some other writers did the same, Dempsey's is the clearest.  Dempsey, himself, fought many bare knuckle matches as he was coming up in the logging camps, mines, &tc.  Yet, again, instead of emphasizing risks of injury or relating his own injuries, he instructs on how to not be injured. 
Despite your claim that the European tradition of Bare Knuckle Boxing is inappropriate for self defense, it was, in fact, commonly used for self defense for centuries.  It is laughably easy to prove this in all the existing historic documentation, again ranging from books to newspaper articles, to LEO and military instruction (even up to WWI and WWII).  There are many WWII Combatives manuals which include closed fist use (such as the Cosneck manual I linked to) and there is even an intriguing WWI article written by a Camp Instructor linking Bayonet theory with Boxing theory.  Boxing as a tool of self defense is such a common theme that it even shows up in entertainment of stage, screen, and radio broadcast because it was instantly recognizable to the audience as self defense, and further is, even today, recognized by the majority of the population.  The idea that Boxing is inappropriate for self defense is extremely modern and doesn't gain even the smallest of popular foothold until the 1970's or so. 
Whether or not I, personally, am a credible source on the subject *should* be completely irrelevant.  What should matter is whether or not the facts I've presented are accurate or arguable.  They are indisputable.  That said, as I wrote up-thead, I do have some not-inconsequential experience on the subject of pre-MoQ Bare Knuckle Boxing.  Enough, at least, that you should at least consider the evidence I've presented instead of rejecting it out of hand merely because it disagrees with your preconceived notions. 
 
This is my evidence: Science, Medicine, and History.  To date you have yet to present any evidence aside from anecdotal stories of modern boxers (who's training is nearly diametrically opposed to historic bare knuckle training), a firm "Because I said so," and thinly veiled implication that I am a mere dojo warrior and thus the evidence which I present can be dismissed out of hand.




> Therefore it would be wise to listen, with an open mind


Physician, heed thyself. (to paraphrase)


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## Kong Soo Do

Feel better now? :uhyeah:

Let's examine your post.



			
				lklawson said:
			
		

> Your claim is that people who strike with the closed fist, particularly professional boxers, regularly break their hand bones



I don't believe I used the word 'regularly'.  I have said that it happens both in the ring (with hands wrapped and protected) as well as out of the ring (hands unprotected).  And the reason it can and does happen is, despite experience and conditioning, a fighter cannot control all aspects of a chaotic fight to include assured angle of impact and/or striking surface.  A closed fist punch to a hard target has a greater chance of self-injury than an open hand strike like the chin jab.  



> Instead of dealing with the *evidence and facts* that I presented, you questioned my credibility.



I've read your posts.  We are seeing your 'evidence and facts' from two different perspectives.  And yes, I do question your credibility in this area when it comes to what you are teaching your L.E. and corrections students as far as this topic.  You obviously aren't familiar with their policy and procedures, use of force matrix (or whatever terminology they may be using) or the realization that a potential self injury that can be easily avoided my place them in greater danger.  I do this job, you do not.  I teach this job, you do not.  I teach policy and procedures and use-of-force in this venue, you do not.  You seem to have a fascination with bare knuckle boxing.  That's great, everyone needs a hobby and I'm sure it's very interesting.  But it is a sport.  As such, sports are not life and death.  If a boxer busts a knuckle/breaks a metacarpal or sprains his wrist the match is called off and he trots over to the ring side doctor and then gets immediate medical attention.  The Officer or Joe Citizen that suffers an injury during an attack does not have that luxury.  I don't understand why you don't get that!.  The potential for injury is high enough already due to the attack, needlessly performing a task (punch) that has a potential for self injury rather than a task that limits the potential for self injury while completing the mission just as well, or better is just not sound self-defense philosophy.



> But I made a mistake.  I foolishly assumed that you actually were concerned about my credentials so I presented them to you.  It was a foolish mistake on my part because you aren't actually concerned about my credentials.



Actually I'm quite concerned.  Any time someone claims to teach military, L.E. corrections etc but uses techniques/tactics/movements that don't fit the needs of the job or potentially put the operator at greater risk I get concerned.  



> How the hell am I not supposed to take that personally?



Your choice.  You can either listen to someone that is in the career field and teaches it or you can take it personally.  A good instructor learns from those with greater knowledge in certain areas.  I learn stuff as well, every chance I get.  This area isn't one of them.  You shouldn't teach LEO's and CO's to punch to the head/face.  And too be quite clear, Joe Public shouldn't be punching to the head/face either for all the reasons I've listed but you've avoided.  Can anyone say, 'blood borne pathogens'?  



> I understand you are entrenched in your position and will not change



On this point, no I will not change.  Again, for the reasons I've listed above several times.  Reasons given to support the use of a closed fist punch to the head in a sport venue (boxing, bare knuckles boxing etc) do not equate to sound self-defense, again for the reasons I've listed.  Not when there are better alternatives available, and there are several.  

Fairbairn and O'Neill were adept at boxing and judo (in fact O'Neill was the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world in his era).  Boxing and Judo by-and-large did NOT make it into their WWII combatives program.  That's a fact.  And why is that?  Causing a self injury on the battlefield wasn't smart, hence the chin jab and EOH strikes (as well as the stomps and kicks and gouges etc).  Same for an Officer or Mr. or Mrs. Private Citizen during a chaotic, unplanned, violent attack.  

A closed fist punch to the head/face, when better options exist isn't merely ignorant...it's stupid.


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## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> You seem to have a fascination with bare knuckle boxing.  That's great, everyone needs a hobby and I'm sure it's very interesting.  But it is a sport.  As such, sports are not life and death.  If a boxer busts a knuckle/breaks a metacarpal or sprains his wrist the match is called off and he trots over to the ring side doctor and then gets immediate medical attention.  The Officer or Joe Citizen that suffers an injury during an attack does not have that luxury.  I don't understand why you don't get that!.  The potential for injury is high enough already due to the attack, needlessly performing a task (punch) that has a potential for self injury rather than a task that limits the potential for self injury while completing the mission just as well, or better is just not sound self-defense philosophy.


Yup, we'll just continue to engage Cognitive Dissonance and Confirmation Bias.  Let's not deal with things like thousands of years of SD use.

I guess we're done.


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## Kong Soo Do

lklawson said:


> Let's not deal with things like thousands of years of SD use.



Okay, instead we'll deal with things like blood borne pathogens, limiting self injury potential, policy and procedures and utilizing a better tool for the job.  



> I guess we're done.



Okay, I'm good with that as well.  I'm fine with the reader reaching their own conclusion(s).  And despite it getting warm, appreciate you taking the time to post your thoughts.  

Peace out.


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## K-man

Hey Guys, seriously ... take a breath. You have provided a really good discussion here and very worth while following. I think you are coming at it from different sides and there are areas where you will never agree, but you have put up some really good points, both of you.  I can see where *KSD* is coming from from the LEO perspective and I think it would be the same here that punching people in the face does not put the police in good light on the nightly news. On the other hand Kirk has obviously put in a great deal of time and effort to reach the space he is in. The articles quoted were to my mind both logical and informative. 

There are times when punching to the head might be appropriate and there are times when a heel palm might be appropriate, but we might not always have the ability to choose. Perhaps we should be sure to include some hand conditioning in our training because under stress I feel most of us would go back to the closed fist.

Thank you for the interesting discussion.
:asian:


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## Kframe

I can see both sides. I agree with ksd that a punch to the face may not always be appropriate. Be it use of force regs or what have you.  My thing is, KSD why dismiss the evidence he has provided just because it came from boxing? Mind he is not talking about Modern style boxing which started under the Marquis of Queensbury rules, but BKB boxing which was vastly different.  Especially considering the times that style was popular, why wouldn't those people use the art they trained for self defense?  Likely at that time there were few if any real martial arts out side of bkb that could be used for learning self defense. Hence why some OLD boxing manuals refer it as the science of self defense... 

One thing that Kirk did not mention is that in BKB the volume of punching was way lower then it is today, and that punching to the head was not as frequent. It did happen, but not as frequently as body punching.  In Kirks defense, though, all you have to do is youtube irish traveler boxing.  

Honestly I don't understand why you would dismiss the evidence that he laid out. Its laughable to think that a bkb boxer back in the day could just go to the ring side doctor and get fixed up. You do realize that medicine back then was a joke right?! That BKB was illegal in a lot of places and doctors were likely not at ringside events. 

 Life and death or not, sport or not, that does not change the fact that it was a dynamic chaotic event, with bare knuckle punchs being thrown. If hand breaks were so common, why isn't it mentioned more frequently in those manuals? Especially if the people writing them were champions and were trying to teach others to fight for there living as well. You would think that would be topic number one..  Though to be honest, I know one of them, cant remember off hand, mentions boxers and people with good hands doing well. I wonder if that has something to do with Broken hands.

I don't know what the truth is, but I don't like it that you have such a superiority complex that you dismiss everything he has to say just because it comes from a more sportive background.(despite that it was used for more then sportive uses..)  

Honestly out side of what ever it is you do and teach, I don't know of any martial arts that don't teach face punching in some fashion or another. 

You seam to be fascinated with the notion that punching is self injurious.  Can you provide more then anecdotal proof, actual evidence that your position is correct? He provided historical evidence as well as medical evidence from actual doctors..  Im still open on this, sway me with physical proof. The kind of proof that if you had to would be admissible in court. 

I personally am inclined to believe that the truth lies in the middle, that both sides have valid points.  My current and still open opinion is that you can punch to the face, its just that the risks go up depending on were you hit and how hard and how frequently. I don't belive that it is this menacing instantly injurious thing that you are making it out to believe.  I do believe that there are benefits to palm strikes, but there are drawbacks and they are not magical cure alls either. 

Honestly the average martial artist is going to punch with a closed fist, because that is how a great many of them are taught. Starting literally from day one.

Just incase I sound like im defending Kirk, I am. Only  because you mindlessly dismissed every shred of evidence he laid out because he is not a LEO. He Is a citizen, guess what chief, SO ARE YOU. LEO are not above citizens, and I hate this us vs them mentality so many have. This notion that your some how better, more deserved because your LEO/guberment in some fashion.

Ill say it again im still open to empirical evidence by multiple well cited sources. Prove it to me. I want proof not even God him self could Deny.


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## Kong Soo Do

Kframe said:


> My thing is, KSD why dismiss the evidence he has provided just because it came from boxing?



I did not dismiss him because his evidence came from boxing, I also used boxing in my examples.  I did disagree with his conclusions and stated why.



> ts laughable to think that a bkb boxer back in the day could just go to  the ring side doctor and get fixed up. You do realize that medicine back  then was a joke right?! That BKB was illegal in a lot of places and  doctors were likely not at ringside events.



I wasn't talking about BKB boxing.  My reference was to modern boxing as a modern sport.  



> I don't know what the truth is, but I don't like it that you have such a  superiority complex that you dismiss everything he has to say just  because it comes from a more sportive background.



You're not reading my posts in the context they were written.  I dismiss most things that are based upon a sport training methodology when the topic is self defense, which this thread is about.  Sport training methodology isn't sufficient for self defense scenarios and vice versa.  This goes beyond that consideration however because it touches on blood borne pathogens (which everyone that advocates closed fist strikes to the face/head is glossing over or ignoring but is a MAJOR concern) as well as policy & procedures of students in high liability professions which can and does dramatically differ from what is primarily a sporting event.  The fact that advocates aren't acknowledging a proper concern with blood borne pathogens screams a lack of understanding or real world concerns that face high liability professionals as well as private citizens in violent encounters.



> You seam to be fascinated with the notion that punching is self  injurious.  Can you provide more then anecdotal proof, actual evidence  that your position is correct?



Punching a hard surface with a clenched fist CAN be self injurious.  Are you suggesting that no professional boxer has ever injured their hand and/or wrist in and out of the ring?  Are you suggesting that no private citizen has ever injured their hand/wrist by punching the head?  Are you serious?   :duh:



> My current and still open opinion is that you can punch to the face, its  just that the risks go up depending on were you hit and how hard and  how frequently.



You're proving my point by admitting the risk goes up.  So why do something where the risk goes up when you don't have to?



> I don't belive that it is this menacing instantly injurious thing that you are making it out to believe.



Never said it was 'instant', don't put words in my mouth.  But as you just admitted, the risk goes UP.  Again, why do something where the risk goes up when you don't have to put yourself...or a student in that position?



> Honestly the average martial artist is going to punch with a closed fist...



And the superior one will use another tool that works just as good or better without the risk.  Sorry...had to go there :wink:



> I do believe that there are benefits to palm strikes, but there are drawbacks and they are not magical cure alls either.



No one ever mentioned they were magic.  And I'm curious what you think the drawbacks would be?  They were effective enough for Fairbairn, Sykes, O'Neill, Applegate, Nelson, Cestari and company as being a premier strike.  



> Just incase I sound like im defending Kirk, I am. Only  because you  mindlessly dismissed every shred of evidence he laid out because he is  not a LEO. He Is a citizen, guess what chief, SO ARE YOU. LEO are not  above citizens, and I hate this us vs them mentality so many have. This  notion that your some how better, more deserved because your  LEO/guberment in some fashion.



What happened?  You just get a ticket or something and now you're venting?  Don't take it out on me sport.  And Kirk doesn't need defending.   He's doing fine presenting his opinion on his own.  And don't you dare for one instant make the insinuation that I've EVER put myself above anyone because of my profession.  I speak passionately about what I know and what I believe based on my experience.  Never once have I put forth an 'us vs. them' post.  And in case you missed it, I've mentioned private citizens (which I also teach) more than once in my posts.  And yes, I ALSO I'm a private citizen which means I have the same first amendment rights as everyone else.  And I exercise that right.  If you don't like it then put me on ignore.  

I haven't dismissed Kirk because he isn't a LEO.  I have disagreed with him strenuously because of what he states he teaches LEO's and corrections.  I wouldn't claim to be a good sport teacher and teach people interested in competition because I don't have personal experience in that venue.  And I will speak out strongly on those that teach high liability professionals that have no personal experience with those professions, their policies and procedures, their use-of-force matrix and the health concerns that they face MORE than Joe Public on a daily basis.  Or at the very least they seek to have a serious understanding of what their students do and face on a daily basis.  By teaching LEO's and corrections to punch to the face is, to be blunt, irresponsible and detrimental to their health and career.  I've detailed several times the reasons why.  And I'll once again extent those reasons to the private sector, just so you don't think I'm segregating 'us' from 'them'....cause 'we' are 'them' as well.  

I've detailed my reasoning.  Take it, leave it, ignore it.  I'm responsible only for those I teach.


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## Kong Soo Do

I would like to ask a question, directed mainly to Kirk and K-frame, but anyone is free to answer if they like.  Since this is a thread on self-defense, we're talking a real world attack scenario.  So the simple question is this;  

How many real fights have you been in?  I'm not talking about training or sparring, that isn't a real fight.  And I'm not talking a schoolyard shoving match.  I'm talking about defending yourself, or someone else against a violent attack from a determined attacker who is attempting to do great bodily harm to you or another or is at a lethal force level.  

An add on question would be, if you have been in this type of self defense situation, did you punch to the face?  And if so, was that your only and/or best option at the time? And if so, why?


----------



## Kframe

So you weren't talking about BKB, but modern boxing. Why? From my reading, the majority of the boxing talk from kirk centered on BKB not MOQ.  You dismiss sportive and that's fine doesn't change the facts that for several hundred years, BKB was both sport and self defense. Thusly must  be considered separately from modern Crap. 

For more anecdotal proves nothing evidence, my own father TKD BB, used his art on at least 20 different occasions for self defense, using mostly punch's and throws and blocking techniques(forearms) to end his confrontations yet suffered no problems. Proves nothing, yet It tells me that punching to the head is risky as is anything involving combat but not as highly risky as your making it out to be. 


KSD my problem with palm strikes has already been stated. Firstly it has shorter range. That is not debatable to me. The way I was taught it, has several inches shorter range then a punch.  Secondly and this is my opinion, but I Feel that I do not have the same impact or power as a punch. It feels to spread out, not enough penetration. I want that concussive impact, I want his brain to bounce around in his skull, the way a good hard punch does to someone's brain when it knocks them out. I just don't get that feeling from a palm strike. Just feels shallow, no matter how much I put into it.  That is my reasoning for not liking it.  

Honestly, if attacked with a  sucker punch ill likely react as trained. SLip duck body shot to solar plexus or liver depending on which side the attack came from and hook to the jaw. For me the hook to the jaw is the most powerful and accurate thing I have. The jaw(when impacted at the area a hook would normally hit, the side below the teeth) is not a overly hard bone. It should break easier then the bones of the hand. I just cant think of any good way to attack that structure with a palm strike given that I know what my reaction will be. I do not know of any palmstrikes that travel like a hook. 

You say that the superior martial artist will choose the better tool. How can he when his entire training up till that point from day one is to punch with a closed fist. I can visit every single style of martial art in 300miles of my location and I guaranty I wont find one that does palm strikes to the head instead of punching as regular training from day one. Most every place I have ever seen or trained at It was something supplemental, and only occasionally practiced. If its different were you are and for your students then great. Sadly most if not the vast majority do not put much focus on it. Even if they did train it at the higher levels of the art how do you un train literally years of hard wired closed fist punching training they have most assuredly practiced. 

You keep mentioning Fairbairn, I take issue with him. He published a proven faulty and patently misleading "timetable of death" with regards to his knife "system". I don't care how good of a martial artist he was, He deliberately mislead soldiers going off to war, not a honorable thing IMHO.  Secondly, his knife system isn't even a damn system. I have read the manual and its just a collection of different ways to cut and hold the damn knife.. Doesn't take a genius to figure out how to hold a knife and make a damn cut.  

Honestly I feel people like Micheal Janich are far better knife experts then he ever was. 

No KSD im not going to put you on ignore. Just because I am pissed and just because I am inclined to not agree with you  does not mean I don't respect you or value your imput on things. No I have not been pulled over in years and I don't plan on it.  I just get tired of meeting and reading and hearing on various media cops and other leo that feel they are better then others. Recent cop things that piss me off? How about this story..http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...his-hunting-property-but-we-have-the-footage/  No excuse. According to MI law he broke no fking laws. Yep good constitutional policing there.. Or how about this one. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...ro-gun-sign-what-he-discovered-blew-him-away/

I have friends and family that are cops and are fair and decent people yet I see crap like that, and meet many more with BS attitudes and yet you wonder why I have a issue with cops.. 

Only thing I have had to pull my ccw on was a rather vicious Doberman. Other then that, nothing thankfully. 

That's the thing I hate about online forums. Seriously if we were in a gym in real life, just talking and training in person, this probably would have gone a whole different way. I hate the impersonal nature of forums.  One day I want to train with you. I want to see what makes you so different. Maybe ill pick up something new. Im always open to new techniques.


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## Kong Soo Do

Kframe said:


> That's the thing I hate about online forums. Seriously if we were in a gym in real life, just talking and training in person, this probably would have gone a whole different way. I hate the impersonal nature of forums.



Agreed, one thing that is always lost in translation is the tone of the person.  



> So you weren't talking about BKB, but modern boxing. Why? From my reading, the majority of the boxing talk from kirk centered on BKB not MOQ.



Alright, let's discuss both with an eye towards critical thinking.  According to Kirk, self injury wasn't a topic covered.  Okay, why?  Is it because self injury never happened?  I'd have a hard time believing that.  Is it because it wouldn't support the premise of the book?  Possibly.  If someone writes a book on the virtues of TKD competition they would likely go on about the positives i.e. conditioning, discipline, self confidence etc.  They probably wouldn't delve into the area where people have been killed in competitions or received life changing injuries or long term medical conditions due to repeated trauma.  Wouldn't make their book very popular or profitable.  And would the author(s) have considered self injury a problem during their era?  One would need to ask if the author(s) were concerned about the ability to manipulate a tool, such as a firearm, intermediate weapon, communication device (radio or cell phone) or small items such as keys, using refined motor skills under duress after a self injury. Putting self injury to the side for a moment, were they concerned about blood borne pathogens during this era?  Probably not considering science only discovered germs a little over a century ago.  It may have been used for self defense as well as sport, but the question remains;  was it the best possible option.  I submit that no, it was and is not the best option.  And I have detailed my reasons.  



> For more anecdotal proves nothing evidence, my own father TKD BB, used his art on at least 20 different occasions for self defense, using mostly punch's and throws and blocking techniques(forearms) to end his confrontations yet suffered no problems. Proves nothing, yet It tells me that punching to the head is risky as is anything involving combat but not as highly risky as your making it out to be.



Then the question would arise;  how many of those 20 did he 'have' to punch someone in the head/face?  Was there no other possible alternative?  Was he in a position where he would have immediate need to operate some tool/device using refined motor skills while under duress?  If he had injured his hand, and did have a need to operate/manipulate a tool/device using refined motor skills while under duress would it have impaired that ability?



> KSD my problem with palm strikes has already been stated. Firstly it has shorter range. That is not debatable to me. The way I was taught it, has several inches shorter range then a punch.  Secondly and this is my opinion, but I Feel that I do not have the same impact or power as a punch. It feels to spread out, not enough penetration. I want that concussive impact, I want his brain to bounce around in his skull, the way a good hard punch does to someone's brain when it knocks them out. I just don't get that feeling from a palm strike. Just feels shallow, no matter how much I put into it.  That is my reasoning for not liking it.



It is my experience that the vast majority of real fights are up close and personal and distance, particularly in terms of inches, is rarely an issue.  To your second concern, I don't know how you were taught open hand strikes.  Too be honest, I'd rather chin jab than punch because I feel I can get more power into the strike (if we're discussing the head as a target).  I can tell you for a fact, because I've been in surgery for a prisoner that this happened to, that if you chin jab someone hard enough you will likely break their jaw on both sides of the jaw bone.  This was explained to me by he surgeon as he wired the guys jaw shut.  A properly delivered chin jab will more than rattle the brain and is extremely likely to cause unconsciousness.  Very likely to cause major trauma to the mouth as well.  But I have much less of a chance for blood borne pathogen exposure as I'm not impacting my palm into something hard/sharp enough to open up my hand.  Certainly not like punching someone in the mouth, orbital or jaw with my knuckles.  And a chin jab is likely to keep the mouth of the attacker closed during impact so that any trauma/blood is contained, at least momentarily during the strike.  Nothing is 100% and I'm not going to paint the chin jab as a magic bullet.  But let's examine it thoroughly for a moment, less chance of self injury, less potential I'm going to open a wound on my own hand, less chance for blood-to-blood exposure with a strike that is effective.  WWII combatives advocates as well as L.E. and corrections wouldn't put such emphasis on a 'so-so' strike.  As I've mentioned, in the books Kill or Get Killed and Get Tough the chin jab and EOH strikes take a front and center position, punches to the head aren't discussed at all.  There are many reasons they didn't and I've detailed that.  Again, a chin jab isn't magic and one needs to use it properly.  But let's face it, it doesn't take 20 years to master a chin jab.  It's pretty much 'stupidly simple'.  That is why I like it.  Stupidly simple works under duress.



> You say that the superior martial artist will choose the better tool. How can he when his entire training up till that point from day one is to punch with a closed fist.



Let's be clear, I like punching and have no issue with it with the exception of to the head.  I can hit a person hard enough to make them deficate themselves.  Guess how I know that.  But that is a strike to the abdomen which is a soft body target.  I like punching to the meaty part of the thigh.  Great for putting someone off balance and likely on the ground.  But the meaty part of the thigh has a lot of cushion to punch.  



> I can visit every single style of martial art in 300miles of my location and I guaranty I wont find one that does palm strikes to the head instead of punching as regular training from day one.



Okay, let's take a critical look at this.  I don't dispute what you're saying for a moment.  However, this goes back to sport training methodology vs. self defense training methodology.  It also brings up the question; is the instructor teaching from theory or experience?  Valid question.  Someone teaching a particular concept/principle/movement/technique/strategy either needs to have personal experience with how effective it would be (either in a sport setting or real life setting depending on the focus) or their instructor needs to have experience.  If not, how do we actually know something is either effective or the best tool for the job?  I'm not implying that a martial arts instructor needs to go out and get into fights.  But at some point we need to have some type of litmus test as to the effectiveness of the material.  This is why I'm always vocal when it comes to sport vs. SD.  Someone that has never been in a real fight, who's instructor has never been in a real fight, who's instructor has never been in a real fight trying to tell me that XYZ joint lock will work on a real, determined attacker during a violent encounter yet they've never used it on a real, determined attacker during a violent encounter and neither has anyone in their lineage sets of my BS meter.  

My point is that yes, punching can be effective but many/most instructors that don't have personal experience don't cover the 'what comes next' aspect of self defense.  For example, they'll teach 'do this punch to the head'.  Okay, what comes next?  If it worked and you knocked out the bad guy and you didn't hurt your hand and you didn't have a blood borne pathogen exposure then great!  Does anyone drill on what happens if you busted up your hand or sprained your wrist and now need to access or manipulate something with a refined motor skill?  Or you did open your knuckles on his bloody mouth and now you've been exposed to HIV?  Anyone cover that?  Or your instructor drills you on a really neat joint lock.  Does he know it will really work?  Has he actually done it to a real bad guy?  Do you do the lock, then release and then drill it again?  Great...what comes next?  Did he go over situational awareness so that after you've slapped on the really neat joint lock you're now scanning the area for additional threats?  What about if the joint lock doesn't work?  What about his ability to access a concealed or improvised weapon with the other hand.  My point is that self defense is it's own entity and requires a lot more than just 'punch here' and 'kick here' or 'they've been doing this for hundreds of years so it must be the best option' yet doesn't consider the 'what comes next' aspect which can be just as important....or even more important than the actual initial technique.  



> I just get tired of meeting and reading and hearing on various media cops and other leo that feel they are better then others.



And I've never said I'm better than anybody here.  If the topic is sport related, like how to win a comp you won't even see me in the thread because that isn't my thing.  SD related stuff is my thing and if I think I have something of value to offer then I'm 'in like Flint'.  Doesn't mean I'm better, or a bad *** or Bruce Lee reincarnated or the son of Chuck Norris nor does it mean I have a big red 'S' tattooed on my chest.  But the fact is that in this area I've been trained by a real Navy SEAL, a real Russian Spetzna, two real Israeli commandoes, a guy that was knighted by the Queen of England for his knife defense program and a bunch of 'names' in the military and LEO community as well as my own MA instructor that was NYPD.  I ain't special but by golly...in this area I've been blessed to have been in the right place at the right time to receive training that most MA don't have access to normally.  And, unfortunately, I've been in hundreds and hundreds of fights.  Not proud of it, it just is what it is.  I work in high liability areas and between the military and the L.E. arena I've been in uniform for nearly three decades.  Again, doesn't make me special or right all the time.  But I've learned from experience and I've learned from mistakes.  And because of that I probably do see things quite differently from many martial arts instructors.  



> I have friends and family that are cops and are fair and decent people yet I see crap like that, and meet many more with BS attitudes and yet you wonder why I have a issue with cops



Yeah, well I have an issue with a-hole cops too.  I don't like it when they flip the lights on to get through an intersection.  I don't like it when they speed but then issue speeding tickets.  So I don't act like that.  But I'm an old fashioned square so again I probably see things differently.  

In terms of the martial arts, if it's sport then I'm not the guy to listen to.  If it is SD then maybe I have something to offer.  If it's of use then use it, if not then flush it.  



> Only thing I have had to pull my ccw on was a rather vicious Doberman. Other then that, nothing thankfully.



And hopefully you never will.  I've had to pull my sidearm five times and it sucks and would prefer not having to be in that situation ever again.  But if it happens, at least I have some sound training to get me through.  That and a silent prayer I prayed a couple of decades ago that has seen me through many a tough spot.  

Anyway, this has been enough of a novel.  I don't like punching if it is to the head/face.  I feel the risk outweighs the reward and that better options will generally exist.  YMMV.


----------



## lklawson

Kframe said:


> I can see both sides. I agree with ksd that a punch to the face may not always be appropriate. Be it use of force regs or what have you.  My thing is, KSD why dismiss the evidence he has provided just because it came from boxing? Mind he is not talking about Modern style boxing which started under the Marquis of Queensbury rules, but BKB boxing which was vastly different.  Especially considering the times that style was popular, why wouldn't those people use the art they trained for self defense?  Likely at that time there were few if any real martial arts out side of bkb that could be used for learning self defense. Hence why some OLD boxing manuals refer it as the science of self defense...
> 
> One thing that Kirk did not mention is that in BKB the volume of punching was way lower then it is today, and that punching to the head was not as frequent. It did happen, but not as frequently as body punching.  In Kirks defense, though, all you have to do is youtube irish traveler boxing.
> 
> Honestly I don't understand why you would dismiss the evidence that he laid out. Its laughable to think that a bkb boxer back in the day could just go to the ring side doctor and get fixed up. You do realize that medicine back then was a joke right?! That BKB was illegal in a lot of places and doctors were likely not at ringside events.
> 
> Life and death or not, sport or not, that does not change the fact that it was a dynamic chaotic event, with bare knuckle punchs being thrown. If hand breaks were so common, why isn't it mentioned more frequently in those manuals? Especially if the people writing them were champions and were trying to teach others to fight for there living as well. You would think that would be topic number one..  Though to be honest, I know one of them, cant remember off hand, mentions boxers and people with good hands doing well. I wonder if that has something to do with Broken hands.
> 
> I don't know what the truth is, but I don't like it that you have such a superiority complex that you dismiss everything he has to say just because it comes from a more sportive background.(despite that it was used for more then sportive uses..)
> 
> Honestly out side of what ever it is you do and teach, I don't know of any martial arts that don't teach face punching in some fashion or another.
> 
> You seam to be fascinated with the notion that punching is self injurious.  Can you provide more then anecdotal proof, actual evidence that your position is correct? He provided historical evidence as well as medical evidence from actual doctors..  Im still open on this, sway me with physical proof. The kind of proof that if you had to would be admissible in court.
> 
> I personally am inclined to believe that the truth lies in the middle, that both sides have valid points.  My current and still open opinion is that you can punch to the face, its just that the risks go up depending on were you hit and how hard and how frequently. I don't belive that it is this menacing instantly injurious thing that you are making it out to believe.  I do believe that there are benefits to palm strikes, but there are drawbacks and they are not magical cure alls either.
> 
> Honestly the average martial artist is going to punch with a closed fist, because that is how a great many of them are taught. Starting literally from day one.
> 
> Just incase I sound like im defending Kirk, I am. Only  because you mindlessly dismissed every shred of evidence he laid out because he is not a LEO. He Is a citizen, guess what chief, SO ARE YOU. LEO are not above citizens, and I hate this us vs them mentality so many have. This notion that your some how better, more deserved because your LEO/guberment in some fashion.
> 
> Ill say it again im still open to empirical evidence by multiple well cited sources. Prove it to me. I want proof not even God him self could Deny.


Kudos for trying.  "A" for effort.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> I would like to ask a question, directed mainly to Kirk and K-frame, but anyone is free to answer if they like.  Since this is a thread on self-defense, we're talking a real world attack scenario.  So the simple question is this;
> 
> How many real fights have you been in?  I'm not talking about training or sparring, that isn't a real fight.  And I'm not talking a schoolyard shoving match.  I'm talking about defending yourself, or someone else against a violent attack from a determined attacker who is attempting to do great bodily harm to you or another or is at a lethal force level.
> 
> An add on question would be, if you have been in this type of self defense situation, did you punch to the face?  And if so, was that your only and/or best option at the time? And if so, why?


None, I'm just a dojo warrior, remember?


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## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> Alright, let's discuss both with an eye towards critical thinking.  According to Kirk, self injury wasn't a topic covered.  Okay, why?  Is it because self injury never happened?  I'd have a hard time believing that.  Is it because it wouldn't support the premise of the book?  Possibly.  If someone writes a book on the virtues of TKD competition they would likely go on about the positives i.e. conditioning, discipline, self confidence etc.  They probably wouldn't delve into the area where people have been killed in competitions or received life changing injuries or long term medical conditions due to repeated trauma.  Wouldn't make their book very popular or profitable.  And would the author(s) have considered self injury a problem during their era?


Not because I expect you to pay attention or to actually deal with it, but just because I'm feeling spunky: You are both a) wrong and b) neglecting the fact that in the pre-MoQ era, Bare Knuckle fighting was actually illegal and there was a *huge* and *vocal *movement against it.  Many newspaper articles, political-style speeches, periodical articles, and sections in books were written decrying the practice as barbaric.  I mentioned this already, remember?  These people *HATED* bare fist fighting and argued every which way they could against it.  None of them seem to mention the extreme danger of injury to the hand.  Why?  Because it wasn't as big a problem as you claim.  Sorry, but your "we'd better keep it a secret or we won't have customers" conspiracy theory doesn't hold up.  Further, note that, as desperately as you are trying, this is not restricted solely to Edwardian and Victorian bare knuckle fighters.  It also includes centuries upon centuries of Chinese, Okinawans, &tc.  Why on earth did they not stop because of the serious risk of injury?  Was it a grand practical joke each generation perpetrated upon the next, much like Boy Scouts taking the new guys snipe hunting?  The logic just doesn't hold.



> One would need to ask if the author(s) were concerned about the ability to manipulate a tool, such as a firearm, intermediate weapon, communication device (radio or cell phone) or small items such as keys, using refined motor skills under duress after a self injury.


Considering that many of them were period LEO and Security and were required to operate handguns, truncheon ("intermediate weapon"), small keys, call boxes, type, and write... um.. yes, the practice apparently didn't hinder their ability at all.



> Putting self injury to the side for a moment, were they concerned about blood borne pathogens during this era?  Probably not considering science only discovered germs a little over a century ago.  It may have been used for self defense as well as sport, but the question remains;  was it the best possible option.  I submit that no, it was and is not the best option.  And I have detailed my reasons.


Because a palm-heel to the mouth won't cut the flesh of the palm or split the targets lip and a palm-heel to the nose won't "draw the claret" just as much as a punch.


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## Kong Soo Do

lklawson said:


> None, I'm just a dojo warrior, remember?



That's like three posts in a row where you're simply being a horse's ****.  When you grow up and want to have an adult exchange of information shoot me a PM and we'll talk.  As it is you're a waste of time. 

Enough information has been put in the thread for anyone reading and interested to formulate their own opinion.


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## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> That's like three posts in a row where you're simply being a horse's ****.


Maybe, but I've been down this road before.  Person A makes a statement.  Person B disagrees with it and questions A's martial experience.  A rejoins with a list but it's never enough for B.  There's always some hole to poke in it.  I could be a certified murder-killbot with 1,000 ninja assassinations to my credit and it wouldn't be sufficient.  And it is still irrelevant as the first time you tried to distract from the actual arguments being made.

Let me say it again: My "credentials" are completely irrelevant to the arguments made because they happened without me and stand on their own with or without me.



> When you grow up and want to have an adult exchange of information shoot  me a PM and we'll talk.  As it is you're a waste of time.


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## Kong Soo Do

I've been down this road before as well.  Person A lacks the practical, real world experience in a particular area and relies on what he's read in books to formulate his opinion.  Person B tries repeatedly to explain that book learning, while a fine pursuit and one he does as well, is not a substitute for practical, real world experience.  And person B details why.  Then person A gets butt-sore and riled up and starts going high-school on person B.  

Whatever Kirk, I'm a little too old for your pout-fest.  As I've mentioned earlier, you've presented why you feel it's fine to punch in the head/face and I've presented why I feel it isn't the best option.  The reader now has enough information that they can make their own decision as to what they feel is best.

Peace.


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## Koshiki

Kframe said:


> I can visit every single style of martial art in 300miles of my location and I guaranty I wont find one that does palm strikes to the head instead of punching as regular training from day one. Most every place I have ever seen or trained at It was something supplemental, and only occasionally practiced.



Just throwing in my two cents here. Ok, maybe only my ha'penny! 

Ahem. Please read the following in a light, friendly, conversation tone, and envision, as you do, a rather silly looking, but well-meaning smile. 

The very first self-defense technique my school teaches to new students is a palm strike to the face. Followed by three drills utilizing body and side of the neck punches, then an elbow to the floating ribs, a knife-hand strike, same location, then a variety of kicks to the body. Not until the 52nd drill is there a closed fist to the head taught, and then only a finishing technique after a takedown, when the attacker will, (hopefully and hypothetically!), present a simpler target. This technique, part of the fifth set of ten, is not taught until Probationary Black Belt, so students should have a minimum of 6-8 years of training before we really start advocating closed fists to the head. After this first one, there are maybe, maybe, 4 or five more, in all 48 techniques that follow. 

I don't know where you hail from, perhaps the martial arts situation is different, but, out of the schools that my schools encounters on any sort of regular basis, I can't say that head-range knuckle strikes are exactly prevalent in gear-free sparring or one-step/self-defense techniques. The Tai Shing Monkey Kung Fu school loooooves to push strikes right through your face, but I can't say I've ever seen them come at me with a closed fist, it's always a palm heel, or a forearm, or an elbow, or even a shoulder. There's a Karate school that fights quite similarly. When we play, there are punches galore, but they tend to be body, not head. Another karate school we see a lot of, but have never sparred with has self-defense one-step type things that, as far as I have seen/been shown or taught, tend towards groin kicks, elbows, takedowns, body shots, and open hand techniques to the face, ears, head...

To be sure, they are karate schools. Yes, I'm sure when they perform Taikyoko Nidan, they do at least 6 head strikes in the form. I'd also note that that is the SECOND form taught, the first has, generally, body punches, as does the fourth. If you go through the traditional Karate forms as I know them, there are a good deal more middle punches than high punches, in the taikyokus, the pinans, the nahainchis, Bassai Sho and Dai, Jion, Tencho, Sanchin.

Leaving out blocks, you know what the strikes are, in order, in the very first form from the Kung Fu school I mentioned? Two palm strikes to the face, a palm to the face, elbow and a low round kick, palm to the face, elbow and a low round, palm to the face, elbow, low round, palm against the back of the head, driving to the ground, then two hammer strikes to the ribs, hammer low, hammer high, hammer low, hammer high, side kick to the body. Not a single knuckle strike to the head. In the next two forms, as taught to me, there are only two closed hand strike to the head, both backfists which come from only a few inches away to the nose, not exactly knuckle breaking force,  and a multitude of palm strikes, rakes, and elbows to the head.

I just began training at a Shaolin Kempo school a couple weeks ago. The punches to the head may be coming, but so far, their SD one step type stuff, they call it kempos and combinations, has consisted of upward throat punches, body punches, body and knee kicks, and take downs.

Perhaps in your area it is different, but it may be a TOUCH of hyperbole to claim that all schools within 300 miles teach head punches as the standard until the advanced levels. In my area, the opposite seems to be true. Most martial artists that I know seem to acknowledge that, while a head punch can be devastating to the target, it requires a good deal of training and conditioning, and even then, is a risky proposition that should NOT be your go to move.

If a school is point-fight tournament oriented, then I'm sure they spend a good deal of time connecting their padded knuckles with their padded foreheads, but that's really a different animal.

Just to be really pedantic, there are likely several hundred martial arts schools within 300 miles of you, no matter where you are. I find it unlikely that, say, the tai chi chuan schools are teaching face punches on day one. The Baguazhang schools? Probably not.

I agree that there is a harder, more destructive impact with knuckles than with palms. Simple physics decrees it must be so. The fleshy palm can be more compressed, meaning that the force is applied slower, and thus is able to spread out across both surfaces, resulting in significantly lower PSI.

The problem is that that lower or higher PSI is transmitted 50/50, half to the head, half to the knuckles. You want to know what your doing before you take a full force blow to your knuckles, and, at least with the schools I am most familiar with, in New England, that fact seems to be recognized clearly in training. The One school I can think of that loves knuckles to the head is a Shotokan school, and they train with some very old and grungy looking, really hard makiwaras. They also are fans of placing makiwara boards on trees, instead of on the flexible post. They punch to the head but, they acknowledge that you want to be reaaaaally ready for it.

In short, punches hit with a higher PSI, given equal force of attack. Palm strikes are padded, thus hit with a lower PSI. What is worse for a head, is worse for your hand, and what is better for your hand is better for a head. Also, I bet you have a few schools within 30 miles, let alone 300 that recognize this, and that they are more focused on self-defense, and less on tournament point-fighting and forms.

I could be wrong, but I am recklessly applying my own experience to you. (I know, bad science, that, but I'm just that lazy!)

And remember, my tone is light and conversational, accompanied by a pleasant, if rather goofy, smile.


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## Kong Soo Do

Zack, I've generally found this to be the case in my area.  Certainly mileage will vary with schools.  Putting the L.E. stuff to the side for a moment and using the schools in our association (U.S. and Australia), I can't think of any closed fist punching to the face/head.  Our 'Basic 20' kata has a double punch in each drill but there is a caveat;  first, the double punches are vertical and not cork screw type punches.  Secondly, they are to the torso or lower.  Thirdly, they are 'place holders' so-to-speak.  They are there for the instructor to use or discard at their discretion.  It is the place that other techniques are inserted such as a lock, throw etc.  The Basic 20 is a living kata that is tailored to each individual student.  The foundation or skeleton stays the same but the conclusions are tailored.  As an example, I had a student once that was built like a fire plug.  Kicking wasn't his thing and really never would be due to his body type combined with previous injuries.  So his conclusions centered more on close in strikes and grappling which he excelled at.  Conversely, I had a woman that was one of those people that could jump up and grab a quarter on the top of the door frame with her feet and leave fifteen cents change.  So her conclusions took advantage of her flexibility and lower body strength.

Additionally, the Mu Shin kata of our own school has 25 movements that contain strikes, locks, throws, escapes etc but no head punches.  

Speaking with those masters in our association on this topic, as well as fellow high liability professionals I work with basically mirrored what I've posted already.  As full disclosure, I've done hard body conditioning to include my hands.  Knuckle push ups on hard wood, punching boards, kicking tires and bowling pins on the shins etc.  Even with that, my preference is to utilize other strikes that can achieve the same desired result with less risk vs. reward.  

Good point on the physics of the strike as well.  For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.  Thanks for bringing that into the conversation as well for consideration.


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## Grenadier

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Please keep this discussion civil.  

Thank you.

Ronald Shin
MT Assistant Administrator


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## Koshiki

Kong Soo Do said:


> The Basic 20 is a living kata that is tailored to each individual student.  The foundation or skeleton stays the same but the conclusions are tailored.



THAT. Is awesome. I have never encountered something like that before. I mean, there are the traditional forms, which are sometimes changed a tiiiny bit, you know, the new 55 year student might have to do a knee kick, not a middle kick, or the guy with a spinal injury has to narrow up his stances a bit. Then sometimes there are the self-created forms, which usually seem to degenerate into wild sequences of spins, jumps, twirly-go-rounds and the like. I love the idea of the carefully tailored form, fitting perfectly with the practitioner's needs and abilities. I don't suppose you would have any video handy, of different version? Probably not, but that's something I would love to see!

Oooh, also, somewhere back in the mass of text I remember somebody saying that a downside of palm strikes is that the cannot use the same trajectory as a hook punch. I can't find the statement now, but I just wanted to jump in and say, Yes, yes they can! Just don't implode your buddies ear drums when you're practicing; those things are delicate, and music is pretty.

Mr. Shin, advice noted and taken as an order, Mr. Admin sir. Also, your avatar is doing funny things to my eyes.


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## Kframe

Zach I stand by my comment. Most of the schools with in 3 hours drive are mcdojo.  Nearly all are ATA tkd and one jkd concepts place. There is no internal arts in my half of the state. I see face punching drills in all of them.  I've watched karate school after karate school perform the same high punching drill. 

My area is the Midwest mcdojo capital.


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## Kong Soo Do

Zack Cart said:


> THAT. Is awesome. I have never encountered something like that before. I mean, there are the traditional forms, which are sometimes changed a tiiiny bit, you know, the new 55 year student might have to do a knee kick, not a middle kick, or the guy with a spinal injury has to narrow up his stances a bit. Then sometimes there are the self-created forms, which usually seem to degenerate into wild sequences of spins, jumps, twirly-go-rounds and the like. I love the idea of the carefully tailored form, fitting perfectly with the practitioner's needs and abilities. I don't suppose you would have any video handy, of different version? Probably not, but that's something I would love to see!



Thank you.  It's something we developed years ago and it just took off and spread to other schools/arts.  There were several of us that had a hand in the development of both the Basic 20 and the Mu Shin kata.  We had some commonality in our training but also different arts to draw upon.  And the least experienced had 20 years of training/teaching with the most 50+.  It was a very rewarding project and was received well.  

The IKSDA MAC is in the process of putting it on video for the association.  Each master is suppose to video the Basic 20 with their particular influence for source material for the other IKSDA schools here and in Australia.  I'd be happy to let you know when some of it has been videoed so you can check it out.  This will be free from the IKSDA and is just part of our show-n-tell time with other schools and arts.  Like anything, if you find something useful then take it and make it yours.  Discard what you can't use.  



> Oooh, also, somewhere back in the mass of text I remember somebody saying that a downside of palm strikes is that the cannot use the same trajectory as a hook punch. I can't find the statement now, but I just wanted to jump in and say, Yes, yes they can! Just don't implode your buddies ear drums when you're practicing; those things are delicate, and music is pretty.



We use something very similar in one of our escape techniques.  You have to do it carefully in training for the safety of your partner.  Very effective.  That will be on one of the videos we're doing as well.


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## Kong Soo Do

Kframe said:


> Zach I stand by my comment. Most of the schools with in 3 hours drive are mcdojo.  Nearly all are ATA tkd and one jkd concepts place. There is no internal arts in my half of the state. I see face punching drills in all of them.  I've watched karate school after karate school perform the same high punching drill.
> 
> My area is the Midwest mcdojo capital.



I understand where you're coming from on this now.  Would this not lend support to my points though?


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## Kframe

KSD Firstly I want to apologize for getting heated and acting like a B hole.  No excuse for it. 

Thinking on this, im inclined to agree with you. Though my own personal training wont reflect it. The reason is, I have way to much ingrained training, and that is face punching. I can practice all other forms but I know for a fact under pressure ill instinctively go back to punch's.   Knowing that, I have begun searching for a way to practice iron body and iron hand to help mitigate as much as I can this issue for me.   So far I have found this company and it looks legit. http://ironpalmproductions.com/iron-body-training I would find a live teacher to show me, but as noted there are none in my half the state. KSD do you use JOW? I so which company do you use? Is this company legit? http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/22 Or this one? http://www.ditdajow.com/  Looking forward to advice on this. 

One thing I have to say in favor of boxing is that for basic easy to learn defenses against various punch's.  Sure it has drawbacks but I think a lot of the defenses and concepts  can work with any martial system for self defense. 

With regards to my father he is TKD. He LOVES kicking. Prefers it over all things. Problem was most of his attacks were close proximity and in confined areas.  One was at a local diner(he show me spot it happened in and the wall the thug fell into..)  Was a one punch affair straight to the face. He just reacted as taught.  He had epilepsy for a long time and had to hitch hike. People tried to jump him all the time during that era of his life. People just didn't understand it and thought they could beat up the special guy... One  time he was in Chicago and was on some kind of walk way at night. 3 guys tried to jump him. One on the left, one on the right, one in front and a few feet back. He grabbed both the guys on either side and did some kind of goofy off balancing maneuver and slamed them into each other then did a quick step and threw the last guy into a wall then chopped his neck.. Not a punch but meh cool story. 

  SO he never had to worry about fine motor manipulation, and he never hurt him self. I asked him about this, he said those that broke there hands just weren't trained right and don't know how to punch correctly. Now he is not a high level BB but I do respect my dads opinion considering his experience. 

I just know how I will react, so I train my best and do what I can to mitigate it. The boxer I mentioned agrees there is a danger, but feels that training and conditioning play a important role. He never had a problem in any of his altercations. He did mention a south African boxer who even with wraps and gloves was always breaking his hand. LOL


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## Koshiki

Kframe said:


> Zach I stand by my comment. Most of the schools with in 3 hours drive are mcdojo.  Nearly all are ATA tkd and one jkd concepts place. There is no internal arts in my half of the state. I see face punching drills in all of them.  I've watched karate school after karate school perform the same high punching drill.
> 
> My area is the Midwest mcdojo capital.



I guess I'm confused, I thought your point was that, since Martial Arts schools teach head punches, they must be good options. Now it sounds like you're saying that they teach head punches because they don't know what they're doing. I'll have to re-read more thoroughly.



Kong Soo Do said:


> The IKSDA MAC is in the process of putting it on video for the association.  Each master is suppose to video the Basic 20 with their particular influence for source material for the other IKSDA schools here and in Australia.  I'd be happy to let you know when some of it has been videoed so you can check it out.  This will be free from the IKSDA and is just part of our show-n-tell time with other schools and arts.  Like anything, if you find something useful then take it and make it yours.  Discard what you can't use.



VERY. Excited to see that.


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## Kframe

Not trying to confuse you. Just stating what I saw. I consider all ATA to be mcdojo. I have watched a lot of the so called karate in my area and its mostly worthless. No real pressure testing(not sparring, not the same thing) and half the instructors are morbidly obese. I don't respect a obese instructor.


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## Koshiki

Kframe said:


> Not trying to confuse you. Just stating what I saw. I consider all ATA to be mcdojo. I have watched a lot of the so called karate in my area and its mostly worthless. No real pressure testing(not sparring, not the same thing) and half the instructors are morbidly obese. I don't respect a obese instructor.



Hey, I have an ATA instructor friend! ...and, yeah, I'm not going to disagree. Although, there are certainly talented atheletes in the ATA, what they do is not *my* kind of martial arts. But hey, I sure as heck can't do all that spinny tossy catchy baton bo stuff. 'Course, my bo also weighs a couple pounds, so...

I'm with you for the most part on overweight instructors. However. HOWEVER. Out of all the upper ranks, black belts, and Instructors in my system, I think the one I learned the most from about real, honest to goodness, don't get yourself beaten-up self-defense type fighting was the only overweight one. He had a looong history in the Martial Arts, both within and outside of my style, and boy oh boy did he know his stuff. He also developed extremely serious asthma, which lead to a heart condition. The medication for the Asthma induced rapid weight gain, which made continuous exercise difficult and even dangerous in the last several years of his life. Without exercise, asthma worsens, and so the cycle went. But, even after he stopped instructing, he would come and watch classes, and make the occasional comment to students about really minute details that would make all the difference for him. Great man, great combat philosophy, great knowledge. Great real world philosophy too; he could talk for hours, and was more than willing to hold forth on nearly any topic, generally in a well-versed, extremely honest and open manner.

Sorry, rant over. For the most part I am with you 100% on overweight instructors; if they can't be bothered to train enough to stay in shape, how can we expect them to be knowledgeable about how others should train? I wouldn't say that I don't respect *them*, it's just that I don't necessarily trust their knowledge. But as I have tried to illustrate, there is always an exception.

--------------------------------

I think the issue of danger to the hand structure may also be slightly obscured by the fact that some of us DO condition our hands, develop strong wrist muscles, and thus have a better chance of not hurting our hand. I can punch a hard surface pretty hard and generally feel fine, but then, I have a rope-wound wooden buddy sunk four feet deep into bricks in my back yard, so it might be a little unfair to use that as an example. My girlfriend's hands are just not going to hold up to that. I know from personal experience that if I smack my knuckles into a forehead, it does NOT feel healthy. For a bigger guy, it might be ok. Just like there some people can kick to the head blindingly fast, with extraordinary accuracy and power, while the rest of us had better kick to the knees and stomp on insteps if we want to be effective, some people can hit heads and be fine. A great deal cannot.

I remember my first time with a makiwara, when I was 11 or 12. It was on a tree, not a post. I only hit it, as I recall, twenty times, ten each side, and I was pretty cautious, certainly not hitting hard at all. My wrists were sore for at least several days after, and the right one got all swollen. Looking back, it was probably pretty irresponsible on the part of the instructor. (Not my instructor, different school.)


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Kframe, apology accepted and no worries 

In regards to iron palm and iron body training, it is/was a viable training methodology.  It is something that needs to be done carefully and methodically.  I don't know if our body conditioning would be considered as iron palm/body or not, we just referred to it as hard body conditioning.  Here is an example of some of this type of training (this isn't me but is pretty much what I went through in addition to us striking/kicking each other, kicking tires and using bowling pins):






I've never used Dit Da Jow but have heard good things about it.  I/we always used Tiger Balm and it worked just fine for us and I still use it after a body building workout.  In regards to Dit Da Jow I took a quick peek at YT cause I got curious:






It sounds to me like your father really got the most out of his training, good for him.  That's good, solid practical stuff he can pass on to you.  If you do start iron hand/body training I'd be curious as to how you like it and how it is working for you.


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## K-man

I just went through all the Goju kata and with the possible exception of the Gekisai kata there are no head high straight punches. There are plenty of palm heel strikes, lots of back fists and a small number of uppercuts. In Sesan kata, basically taught at around fifth dan, there is one head high punch but from lowered stance, therefore not targeting the head. Interesting!
:asian:


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## Kframe

KSD. Thank you for the videos. Aye my father is a great martial artist. He had a IDentical twin that was his sparring partner out side of school. He basically tested everything on him. Now my uncle was not a slouch, he could wrestle and box, and new some basic kick boxing thanks to training with dad. Both of them were in the 170lb range. Dad was the runner body type, lean and fast, Uncle was the body builder type, lots of muscle and strength.  He made for a good platform for my dad to learn and test everything he was taught.  Uncle never took it easy on him either.. 

I have not done any iron body/palm, I am going to start though. So far  all I have done for the last year is punch bags of Floor dry in my warehouse. That sucked at first, but now I can blast that stuff full power.  They are some kind of diatomaceous earth and clay, not sure of the exact mix.   

With regards to the jow, I have a basic understanding of how it works. Opening blood vessels and such.. One thing is for sure, Its not the jow that does the magic its Wolfs Law that we structure conditioners are going for. 

KSD you mentioned a vertical fist earlier. I don't remember the context. IS the vertical fist safer then a normal fist?


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## Kong Soo Do

Kframe said:


> KSD. Thank you for the videos.



Your welcome.  Hopefully the DDJ video is a good video?  Just happen to see it on YT and I love DIY projects so I figured maybe it was worth a look.



> KSD you mentioned a vertical fist earlier. I don't remember the context. IS the vertical fist safer then a normal fist?



Well it is probably as controversial as open vs. closed fist :rofl:

I've taken some various types of classes on cranial sacral and tri release therapy as well as energy work and muscle testing.  That isn't my main area of expertise but it was of great interest as it involved a great deal of physiology of the body with the muscles and bones.  I had an opportunity to discuss various things with massage therapists, chiropractors and doctors of Chinese medicine.  My conclusion was that the best way to punch was for the hand to remain in a neutral alignment.  As an example, the way your hands hang at your side normally is the way I would punch.  This would be more or less a vertical type fist when brought up into a fighting stance.  The JAMA also had a very good article on this topic years ago which agreed with the viewpoints expressed by the practitioners and doctors I spoke with i.e. the bones in the forearm align better/stronger with the hand in a neutral position than if for instance the fist is rotated cork-screw fashion.  

To me, I feel very comfortable and very strong when punching in this manner and I feel like my arm flows more into the punch.  I normally would punch in a downward arc into someone's abdomen as the types of covers I use lend themselves to that sort of counter-strike.  The only way I can relate the 'feeling' of the punch is that it allows my entire body to be behind the punch in a piston driving motion that I never felt when I would punch any other way.  I feel like I can drive through the target straight into the ground.  IMO, it is safer as it aligns my two knuckles in-line with the rest of my arm when punching in this matter.  I never feel my wrist unstable or weak and if I had to describe the feeling it is like my forearm, wrist and hand are one unit.  Now keep in mind that nothing is perfect and stuff can always happen.  But I feel stronger, more in-line and less prone to 'something' happening that when I punched other ways such as a cork-screw punch.  The 'vertical' punch as I've described is in the same alignment and the beginning, middle and conclusion of the punch unlike the cork-screw which is changing alignment during its rotation through the punch.  

YMMV but that has worked very well for me over the many years I've been punching that way.  I think a lot may have to do with how the punch is delivered as well.  Just my opinion, but I see a lot of people 'jabbing' the punch.  Which can be fine and has it's uses to be sure.  The way I do a vertical punch though is more like driving the fist through the person and out his back than a hard 'pop'.  So I use it when I'm in a position to deliver it in that fashion.  Our lingo is that it causes 'fluid shock' and 'muscular disfunction'.  That's a fancy way to say it makes someone go 'poopy-pants'.  And it's hard for them to continue an attack when their going 'poopy-pants'.

Try it and see how you like it.  If it works then it's yours, if it doesn't then toss it


----------



## lklawson

Kframe said:


> Thinking on this, im inclined to agree with you. Though my own personal training wont reflect it. The reason is, I have way to much ingrained training, and that is face punching. I can practice all other forms but I know for a fact under pressure ill instinctively go back to punch's.   Knowing that, I have begun searching for a way to practice iron body and iron hand to help mitigate as much as I can this issue for me.   So far I have found this company and it looks legit. http://ironpalmproductions.com/iron-body-training I would find a live teacher to show me, but as noted there are none in my half the state. KSD do you use JOW? I so which company do you use? Is this company legit? http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/22 Or this one? http://www.ditdajow.com/  Looking forward to advice on this.


The Japanese & Chinese folks I talk to say that most Jow is intended to speed healing or promote and that the benefits of iron hand training come from performing the techniques which build structure over time.  The Jow just helps, the say, to shorten the time period.



> One thing I have to say in favor of boxing is that for basic easy to learn defenses against various punch's.  Sure it has drawbacks but I think a lot of the defenses and concepts  can work with any martial system for self defense.


K.I.S.S. principle at work.  



> SO he never had to worry about fine motor manipulation, and he never hurt him self. I asked him about this, he said those that broke there hands just weren't trained right and don't know how to punch correctly.


Which is what they've been saying for centuries.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Zack Cart said:


> I think the issue of danger to the hand structure may also be slightly obscured by the fact that some of us DO condition our hands, develop strong wrist muscles, and thus have a better chance of not hurting our hand. I can punch a hard surface pretty hard and generally feel fine, but then, I have a rope-wound wooden buddy sunk four feet deep into bricks in my back yard, so it might be a little unfair to use that as an example.


What many people do not know is that pre-MoQ boxing had something almost identical.  They called it a "Wall Pad."  Basically a 1 foot square, shallow flat leather "pillow" full of dried beans, affixed to the wall.  This was in addition to light and heavy bag work.

IMS, I believe it was Bart Doran who left the best description.

There were also numerous recipes for jow-like applications, most of them now lost to history.  A few, however, remain.  My favorite is Bob Fitzsimmons' recipe but it is impossible to make now because one ingredient was Laudanum.  One old trick was to use salt-brine from pickling solutions (pork, pickles, etc.).  Rosin and various tanic acid preparations were also common.  These were often referred to by the western term, "lineament."  I've used several with varying degrees of success.  One that I particularly like is a bruise lineament, allegedly used by George Washington.  Simply make a paste from common salt and apple cider vinegar.  Apply with a compress over night.

There is *SO MUCH* martial lore from the west that has been mostly forgotten and fallen so far from common consciousness that many people today deny its existence.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Kframe said:


> KSD you mentioned a vertical fist earlier. I don't remember the context. IS the vertical fist safer then a normal fist?


Sometimes called the "Pistol Grip Punch."  This was the default way punches were formed pre-MoQ and I've alluded to the training several times, though I admit I didn't mention it specifically.  My most specific reference was to Dempsey who, as I wrote, had probably the best/most detailed description of it.  However, it is illustrated in pretty much every pre-MoQ and transitional work.

It is absolutely the safest way to punch linearly, particularly without wraps & gloves.  It is probably the most important part of what I was writing about when I wrote that one must learn how to punch correctly when doing so bare-fist.

I used to have a bunch of pics uploaded to the forum, which I have posted before.  I'll see if I can find them.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[edit]
Pics.


























Dempsey instruction on proper alignment (using a wall to lean against):


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## lklawson

Kong Soo Do said:


> I've taken some various types of classes on cranial sacral and tri release therapy as well as energy work and muscle testing.  That isn't my main area of expertise but it was of great interest as it involved a great deal of physiology of the body with the muscles and bones.  I had an opportunity to discuss various things with massage therapists, chiropractors and doctors of Chinese medicine.  My conclusion was that the best way to punch was for the hand to remain in a neutral alignment.  As an example, the way your hands hang at your side normally is the way I would punch.  This would be more or less a vertical type fist when brought up into a fighting stance.  The JAMA also had a very good article on this topic years ago which agreed with the viewpoints expressed by the practitioners and doctors I spoke with i.e. the bones in the forearm align better/stronger with the hand in a neutral position than if for instance the fist is rotated cork-screw fashion.


Did you just agree with me?!?!



> The only way I can relate the 'feeling' of the punch is that it allows my entire body to be behind the punch in a piston driving motion that I never felt when I would punch any other way.  I feel like I can drive through the target straight into the ground.


This is known as the "Falling Step punch," the "Dropstep punch," or similar names and it was the default way to perform linear punches pre-MoQ.  Everyone taught it then and, again, Dempsey wrote the best description of it (the most entertaining anyway).  This is another part of the "learn to punch right" training which I referred to earlier and which it seemed you dismissed out of hand.



> IMO, it is safer as it aligns my two knuckles in-line with the rest of my arm when punching in this matter.  I never feel my wrist unstable or weak and if I had to describe the feeling it is like my forearm, wrist and hand are one unit.  Now keep in mind that nothing is perfect and stuff can always happen.  But I feel stronger, more in-line and less prone to 'something' happening that when I punched other ways such as a cork-screw punch.  The 'vertical' punch as I've described is in the same alignment and the beginning, middle and conclusion of the punch unlike the cork-screw which is changing alignment during its rotation through the punch.
> 
> YMMV but that has worked very well for me over the many years I've been punching that way.  I think a lot may have to do with how the punch is delivered as well.  Just my opinion, but I see a lot of people 'jabbing' the punch.  Which can be fine and has it's uses to be sure.  The way I do a vertical punch though is more like driving the fist through the person and out his back than a hard 'pop'.  So I use it when I'm in a position to deliver it in that fashion.  Our lingo is that it causes 'fluid shock' and 'muscular disfunction'.  That's a fancy way to say it makes someone go 'poopy-pants'.  And it's hard for them to continue an attack when their going 'poopy-pants'.
> 
> Try it and see how you like it.  If it works then it's yours, if it doesn't then toss it


Damnit!  You *ARE* agreeing with me.

While not 100% identical, this is about 80-90% of the "learn to punch properly when bare-fisted" training I have been trumpeting the whole time.  I do wish you would have looked at the books I referenced so you could have known what I was talking about.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Whether you use punches or open hand strikes as your primary means of attacking the head and which one is more powerful is a matter of training and personal preference. The fist will have a greater impact than the palm heel because it is a harder, more compact striking surface. The palm is likely to be less risky, being softer, stronger and involving less joints (if you fell forwards you would be less likely to injure yourself if you stop yourself from hitting the ground with your palms than with your fists). 

Those who advocate that the use of fists in a self defence situation is a very bad idea and favor the palms are concerned that using punches will lead to broken hands. This beleif of theirs, although not unfounded, is often overstated. If you want to use punching then you have to do the proper training and conditioning for it.The chances of someone breaking their hands in a self defence situation is not overly high. People who punch to the head in a sport are far more likely to injure their hands than the average martial artist on the street because they do it everyday whist the average martial artist may only have to use it for self defence a few times in their entire life. 

The chances of a highly trained martial artist who has good skill, technique and accuracy and have conditioned their fists are far less likely to seriously hurt their hands. However there are some individuals who may not want risk this type of injury, such as police officers, who may need to handle a gun afterwards or a surgeon who needs his hands in tip top condition to operate with. For these individuals the palm strike may be the better option for them. As for what's more natural in fight mode, well that is definitely the fist. If you do some empirical research by looking at fights in real life, YouTube and TV shows like Caught on tape and Wildest police videos you can see that the majority of fights that occur between untrained people involve punching, if palm strikes were more natural then you would see them more often.

As martial artists we tend to use what we are good at and we are good at what we are trained for. Whatever is better for one person is not necessarily better for someone else and trying to convince that someone else that your way is better than what works for them is a futile waste of time and nothing to get upset about.


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## Kong Soo Do

Kirk, the disagreement wasn't about the way a punch can be used but rather the target location and the risks associated with that target location.  Even if we can mitigate the chance of self injury to the hand, it still does not address blood borne pathogen exposure.   I place a higher level of concern on these possibilities due to what I've seen over the years.  I've seen Deputies win the fight but then have to go through all the testing and medical drama after an exposure.  It sucks!  It isn't something I'd wish on anyone or for anyone to go through.  YMMV

But at least the thread has returned to a friendly chat amoungst martial artists so in the end it is a win-win.


----------



## Kframe

KSD with your Vertical fist, are you using the first two or last three knuckles? From some of those pics, it went either way first two and last three.   If you go back to my first post in this topic, I mentioned one thing with using the first two knuckles and a vertical fist with regards to face punching. When aimed at a target that is above your head the higher up it is the more angle on the underside of your wrist there will be.  At my max punching height,   with a vertical fist, my first two knuckles will be more  aligned with the top  forearm bone then the bottom one. The hand and arm that are on top(from the top two knuckles on back) will be straight and aligned. The bottom will be very bent how ever. I don't know if that's a problem, because the impact is happening at the top,  and I didn't feel any flex or weakness in my wrist.  Give it a try and you will see what Im talking about. 

If your a tall person, then it makes no difference. Have one of your average students say 5'6 to 5'10 throw those punch's at a focus mit a bout a foot or so above there head and youll see the wrist alignment issue im relating. Im having a hard time describing it, so If its not clear ill try again.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

For us it is the first two knuckles.


----------



## Kframe

What about the angle of the lower wrist? Its quite bent at higher elevations. Of course I forgot as I was typing that, you guys don't punch faces. LOL. Never mind hehe!!


----------



## RTKDCMB

grumpywolfman said:


> I totally agree with your instructor. It's easy to recognize this by standing facing a wall. Hold out a horizontal fist at your face level or higher against the wall without bending your wrist. As you noted earlier, it will be the finger joints that contact first NOT your knuckles. Slide your horizontal fist down the wall while maintaining proper wrist alignment to where your knuckles now hit comfortably, and you will see that at about your solar plexus level the knuckles finally make contact. Now try this same process with a vertical punch. You will notice that you can now get full contact with the fist at head height. Now try doing some palm strikes against the wall. Not so bad huh? Now try a horizontal fist - ouch right? Now try a vertical fist - much better than then the horizontal fist, but still not as much force or body weight can be transferred into as a palm strike.



Unless your opponent's head is shaped like Kryten from Red Dwarf that is not immediately transferable to the human head, which is basically round. If you extend the exercise with the palm strike with the wrist in the same position as in the horizontal punch you will find that as the palm strike gets lower the contact area of the hand on the wall will become increasingly towards the fingers. When you strike a flat kicking shield, the human chest/abdomen area or a punching bag in this fashion the target will form around the palm which can overextend the fingers and cause wrist pain/injury and that can make them difficult to practice with power.




Kryten


----------



## lklawson

RTKDCMB said:


> Unless your opponent's head is shaped like Kryten from Red Dwarf that is not immediately transferable to the human head, which is basically round.


It's not about the shape of your target, but the alignment of the hand and wrist bones.  The horizontal fist does not give the same support which the "pistol grip" fist does.  The use of the wall is just to make it easier for a person to feel the difference by eliminating variables.

Jack Dempsey teaches the same drill in his book and he, most assuredly, punched "non-Kryten" heads, both in gloves and bare fist.






Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Zero

lklawson said:


> It's not about the shape of your target, but the alignment of the hand and wrist bones.  The horizontal fist does not give the same support which the "pistol grip" fist does.  The use of the wall is just to make it easier for a person to feel the difference by eliminating variables.
> 
> Jack Dempsey teaches the same drill in his book and he, most assuredly, punched "non-Kryten" heads, both in gloves and bare fist.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



The &#8220;pistol grip&#8221; punch as termed in Kirk&#8217;s reference materials was the first punch I was shown and drilled on when starting goju ryu; I had never seen this before (certainly not during my TKD times).

I am not sure from Kirk&#8217;s images but the alignment I have trained in has the wrist angled and locked downwards, with the striking surface still being the first two large knuckles.  The reasoning being that in this position the wrist is locked in a position where it will not buckle or be jolted upwards.  In my humble view, this is an even safer application than the pistol grip as discussed. It is still the lateral straight line punch but it is as if you are angling/pointing your &#8220;pistol&#8221; on a low gradient towards the ground (wish I could draw a picture; can&#8217;t find decent picture on the net to download).  It also enhances the strike impact of just the two larger knuckles. So if I am punching someone straight on the chin with this, if I were holding a gun, the barrel would be pointing into their throat &#8211; to try to explain the angle.

My goju sensei taught me this form of pistol grip punch and he is a LEO (and has been for many years) who also has spent time working the court room cells and holding cells, so I listen up when he talks about tactics and techniques for both the street/SD as he speaks from actual experience.  He never warned us off using a punch in SD but we all appreciate there is a risk involved, with damage to wrist of hand/knuckles (greatly reduced with the pistol grip or this &#8220;modified&#8221; pistol grip punch I am struggling to explain). From my point of view, most people that injure themselves when punching in a street or SD altercation are (i) inexperienced fighters; (ii) sport fighters only used to punching with gloves; (iii) drunk fools fighting sloppy; (iv) drunk fools punching holes in walls.

As for Kang Soo&#8217;s question on personal experience, I have used the punch/closed fist in SD in quick succession when confronted with three assailants.  I hit very hard, as each one went down, and I suffered no wrist or knuckle/hand injury, or skin cuts. This was before I started goju ryu or even had much experience in boxing and I threw the horizontal/palm facing down fist. 

Have you (Kang Soo) thrown punches and suffered injury in SD, be it as LEO or otherwise?  

Just as interestingly, have you in your LEO capacity thrown palm strikes to a perp&#8217;s face?  I&#8217;m no cop but thought most physical altercations involving LEOs would be submission, restraint and cuffing. Either that or actual gun work.  Are LEO&#8217;s actually needing to, or find themselves in positions where they have to, employ face strikes on a regular basis?  I would be surprised &#8211; but again, am coming at this from an ignorant position as to LEOs.

If your concern is primarily blood getting into cut knuckles, then that I follow (chances of getting blood into you from a palm strike are significantly less, I can appreciate that).


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## K-man

Zero said:


> The pistol grip punch as termed in Kirks reference materials was the first punch I was shown and drilled on when starting goju ryu; I had never seen this before (certainly not during my TKD times).
> 
> I am not sure from Kirks images but the alignment I have trained in has the wrist angled and locked downwards, with the striking surface still being the first two large knuckles.  The reasoning being that in this position the wrist is locked in a position where it will not buckle or be jolted upwards.  In my humble view, this is an even safer application than the pistol grip as discussed. It is still the lateral straight line punch but it is as if you are angling/pointing your pistol on a low gradient towards the ground (wish I could draw a picture; cant find decent picture on the net to download).  It also enhances the strike impact of just the two larger knuckles. So if I am punching someone straight on the chin with this, if I were holding a gun, the barrel would be pointing into their throat  to try to explain the angle.


The vertical fist is used a lot in Ishin Ryu too. In Goju it is often a 'real' pistol grip with the finger on the trigger so to speak. That gives you ippon ken or one knuckle strike which is more used to strike specific points, normally on the torso. The alignment you describe in achieved by keeping the elbow pointing down, one of the principles of Goju.

Here's another perspective on punching.



> "Even more basic than the punch is learning how to defend yourself without hurting yourself as
> much or more than your opponent did."
> http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=346


:asian:


----------



## Koshiki

Kframe said:


> What about the angle of the lower wrist? Its quite bent at higher elevations. Of course I forgot as I was typing that, you guys don't punch faces. LOL. Never mind hehe!!



I think many of us DO punch faces, just in specific situations, not as a primary go to, and not as something we teach or advocate in early training. Most of the face punches in my school system come with the opponent on their back on the ground, as a hopeful end to the confrontation, rather than as an opening salvo or the default. When I'm on my feet, my hands are automatically open at head level, unless I really think otherwise. If I have a buddy going down and I have good head control, a face punch comes out if I don't think about it and try to do otherwise. In that situation, I find I am much less likely to miss and hit something less squishy and crunchy and a little more solid.


----------



## Zero

Zack Cart said:


> I think many of us DO punch faces, just in specific situations, _*not as a primary go to, and not as something we teach or advocate in early training*_. Most of the face punches in my school system come with the opponent on their back on the ground, as a hopeful end to the confrontation, rather than as an opening salvo or the default. When I'm on my feet, my hands are automatically open at head level, unless I really think otherwise. If I have a buddy going down and I have good head control, a face punch comes out if I don't think about it and try to do otherwise. In that situation, I find I am much less likely to miss and hit something less squishy and crunchy and a little more solid.



Really?  Since moving from judo and then TKD a long time ago into karate, a high degree of training and sparing work from the start has been on punches to the head, not face in general as such but to the chin and rear of jaw with punches (obviously there are the soft targets for other strike types). In tournament I am always going for the head shot, with gloves it is not so target focused - or rather, with an opponent moving and trying to hit you it is not so easy to be target specific but when you manage to rock a head back or sideways with power you can often get a knock out or lead to a knock down regardless where the punch(s) connects.  Don't get me wrong, I am a kicker by trade and love nothing more than ending a fight with a head kick but in a fight in general a lot more times a punch is on rather than a head kick (I don't rule out head kicks for SD/street either, just there is a time and place and you gotta truly know your limitations).

In a SD situation, or street fight/brawl (which I am of the view are better avoided) I see the punch(s) to face/head as a good go to option and often a primary response if physical action is required and weapons are out of the equation for whatever reason. 
Out of interest, how in your school are you putting the opponent on their back or to the ground if it is not by a punch to the head? Is it by throw/submission or by a head/torso kick?  Do you then go to the ground with them or lower yourself to deliver the head punch when they are on the gound?  Personally in a SD environment I would prefer to knock them on their backside with a couple of hard and fast wollops to the kisser and if you need to follow up (to ensure they are immobliised for good if multiple attackers or if they are getting up to do more hurt) do it with a brutal but efficient head/face stomp or football kick that does not require you getting closer to the ground or them and move on to the next guy.  KISKIB: Keep it simple, keep it brutal (disclaimer: use of force laws taken into consideration  )


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Zero said:


> In tournament I am always going for the head shot, with gloves it is not so target focused...



Zero, remember that  what you're describing is in a sport venue.  And for a school that has a focus on sport training methodology that is fine.  In this venue you don't have to be concerned with manipulating something with refined motor skills after a possible injury.  And with the protective equipment a blood borne pathogen exposure is more limited than in a street attack.  



> I am a kicker by trade and love nothing more than ending a fight with a head kick...



When you say 'ending a fight' are you talking about a tournament or a street fight?  If it is a street fight, how many have you been in?  Who were the people you were fighting?



> In a SD situation, or street fight/brawl (which I am of the view are better avoided) I see the punch(s) to face/head as a good go to option and often a primary response if physical action is required and weapons are out of the equation for whatever reason.



What is your level of experience with SD and street fighting?  I would submit that in a SD situation, weapons are not out of the equation until well after the incident is over.  



> Out of interest, how in your school are you putting the opponent on their back or to the ground if it is not by a punch to the head?



Not directed to me, but in our school there are a plethora of ways to end an altercations (as appropriate);  chin jab, EOH, elbow strike (all gross motor skills), locking, cavity pressing or tearing the tendon/muscle are some examples.


----------



## Zero

Kong Soo Do said:


> Zero, remember that  what you're describing is in a sport venue.  And for a school that has a focus on sport training methodology that is fine.  In this venue you don't have to be concerned with manipulating something with refined motor skills after a possible injury.  And with the protective equipment a blood borne pathogen exposure is more limited than in a street attack.
> 
> 
> 
> When you say 'ending a fight' are you talking about a tournament or a street fight?  If it is a street fight, how many have you been in?  Who were the people you were fighting?
> 
> 
> 
> What is your level of experience with SD and street fighting?  I would submit that in a SD situation, weapons are not out of the equation until well after the incident is over.
> 
> 
> 
> Not directed to me, but in our school there are a plethora of ways to end an altercations (as appropriate);  chin jab, EOH, elbow strike (all gross motor skills), locking, cavity pressing or tearing the tendon/muscle are some examples.



Hi Kang Soo!  Can you please, if you have the inclination and time, respond instead to my previous post that in part was directed expressly to you - after I described how my particular goju ryu club and members use the pistol grip punch, I set down some comments on my own experience and then some specific questions for you (it's about 4 posts above, sent yesterday). Thanks!

My directly above post to Zack was on a more general level generated out of interest from his comments and a lot was indeed from a sport/tournament sense.


----------



## Zero

Kong Soo Do said:


> Zero, remember that  what you're describing is in a sport venue.  And for a school that has a focus on sport training methodology that is fine.  In this venue you don't have to be concerned with manipulating something with refined motor skills after a possible injury.  And with the protective equipment a blood borne pathogen exposure is more limited than in a street attack.



*Thanks for commenting Kang Soo but as just posted, my previous post may be more on point for you. I will briefly revert though on these qs from you.
As per my previous response to you, I note your concern with blood exposure and how this is greatly multiplied with a knuckle strike over palm or even knife hand strike in SD without gloves.  When I have used punches outside of sanctioned fights I have never tried to manipulate the head and do not see punches as in the refined motor skills category, quite the opposite - maybe misunderstanding you here.  I have trained in grabbing onto long hair or scarves to immobilse or trap the head when delivering a punch - this is a v nasty move : )
*



Kong Soo Do said:


> When you say 'ending a fight' are you talking about a tournament or a street fight?  If it is a street fight, how many have you been in?  Who were the people you were fighting?


*Yes, this was predominantly/soley tournament context.  As noted in my previous response to you, one of my sensei is a long standing LEO and also very accomplished tournament fighter - he has great skills but also street reality - and experience in perp apprehension and in cell work and breaking up prisoner fights.  He has knocked out a perp by a head kick wearing uniform and boots. he is an execptional athlete and fighter.  We train in modified pistol grip punch for non-glove punches for "reality" - street/SD situations.
I have fought for many years and also done well on the national level, have also fought in Europe and had one Japanese invititational - am/was not a bum fighter.  When younger, not now, I was not overly phased about being drawn into unsanctioned fights (I have grown up/mellowed/disengaged ego now(ok, trying on the last one and reaonsably successful)) - I have thus had real street fights and been involved in fights at parties and in bars when younger (I am not full of sh1te and yes, have been wooped myself badly on couple of these occassions). At no time have I ever attacked or assaulted anyone without provocation or response to violence, it is just I should have walked away - or avoided situations had I known better.  I have used closed fist and - as noted on other threads on MT re SD and "outside of tournament fighting" - used head kicks in at least two instances.
I have apprehended a shop lifter who managed to escape from security guards by doing a piledriver throw and putting on a shoulder lock until security guards caught up.
I have had to defend myself in a genuine SD situation from being jumped by three male assailents, I punched each one in the face with enough force that they all went down - I did not suffer damage, and cannot recall having any cuts either.
I would prefer not to go into too much more detail, this is a public forum and everyone should be aware of what they post and say since the Cody Hall findings/case - social posting is evidence etc (you are a LEO so should appreciate this).

*



Kong Soo Do said:


> What is your level of experience with SD and street fighting?  I would submit that in a SD situation, weapons are not out of the equation until well after the incident is over.


*Please see above response, I have had quite a lot of SD training during my goju years and also from a SD trainer/"expert" (I hate the word expert in that context - he makes an additional living out of training security guards, bouncers etc) who was a highly ranked jujitsu practioner who trained at my old goju club - however, I spend most of my time training on a more tournament focus - not responses as such to knife/gun/mugger attack. I am competent at putting on wrist locks/small locks from the jujitsu training and pretty good at throws etc from a judo background. I have had MMA/freestyle fights so am by no means all stand up. My perspective on the street is more of a strike approach, this is what comes natural and this is what I have found effective. As per the shoplifter, in the right environment and without multiple threats, am happy to throw and do submissions.  I honestly feel the best way to end a lot of trouble is with a simple punch(s) to the jaw/head and nothing else.
As said, I had the one actual SD situation I was faced with.  
I prefer my martial arts training to be focused on fighting other opponents at my level, ie I train to fight experienced other fighters (I still compete but only fun now as finally starting to age (or finally starting to feel am aging) and need to focus on paying bills etc).

Am all for using weapons, have had limited knife training and muck around with a kali friend, but nothing flash at all. Am happy to use any variety of to-hand/improvised weapons. I was talking to Zack on acting where you may not be carrying a gun, or knife or have other weapons, improvised or otherwise to hand.
*



Kong Soo Do said:


> Not directed to me, but in our school there are a plethora of ways to end an altercations (as appropriate);  chin jab, EOH, elbow strike (all gross motor skills), locking, cavity pressing or tearing the tendon/muscle are some examples.


*Yes, just was not sure what style Zack is coming from and what he is using to take people down.*


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Zero said:


> Hi Kang Soo!  Can you please, if you have the inclination and time, respond instead to my previous post that in part was directed expressly to you



Thank you for pointing this out, I completely missed it.



> As for Kang Soos question on personal experience, I have used the punch/closed fist in SD in quick succession when confronted with three assailants.  I hit very hard, as each one went down, and I suffered no wrist or knuckle/hand injury, or skin cuts. This was before I started goju ryu or even had much experience in boxing and I threw the horizontal/palm facing down fist.



Glad it worked out for you.  Then it would be fair to say that you have limited experience then with punches to the head in a real world situation.  And that isn't a bad thing at all, no one should really 'want' extensive experience in a street brawl or attack.  



> Have you (Kang Soo) thrown punches and suffered injury in SD, be it as LEO or otherwise?



Yes.  About 16 years ago I delivered a reactionary strike to an EDP attacker that broke my second knuckle.  Fortunately a few elbow strikes solved the problem.  I was attacked from the side and caught the movement out of the corner of my eye.  I wasn't in a position to use another type of defense unfortunately.  



> Just as interestingly, have you in your LEO capacity thrown palm strikes to a perps face?  Im no cop but thought most physical altercations involving LEOs would be submission, restraint and cuffing.



Yes.  Chin jabs, elbow strikes and EOH (knife hand) strikes mainly.  My personal expertise is in the area of locks and cavity presses.  However a strike, either as a distractor or as a main/counter/pre-emptive movement is often necessary to facilitate the lock.  I cannot speak definitively on all agencies policies, but at one time head strikes were a 'red' area and only reactionary strikes were authorized.  Today head strikes are no longer a red area and are in fact part of CQC systems such as S.P.E.A.R..  But the normal strikes used to these areas are chin jab, elbow strikes or EOH for the reasons I've described previously.  

Submission and securing is the goal, but one has to get the bad guy into that position as safely as possible (both the bad guy and the Officer).  



> If your concern is primarily blood getting into cut knuckles, then that I follow (chances of getting blood into you from a palm strike are significantly less, I can appreciate that).



It is of major concern and often times the MA community overlooks this in training.  Bad guys are just that...bad guys.  And they often spend or have spent time in a correctional facility and/or a mental health care facility.  The incident of exposures in these types of facilities are many times higher than 'normal life'.  So the bad guy attacking you...does he have HIV?  Hep C?  TB?  It is a little like playing Russian roulette.  He could be carrying nothing but a bad attitude.  You could pull off a head punch that puts him down and saves the day.  But what if he is carrying something that will alter the course of the rest of your life?  I've known people in that position and to say it sucks is a little bit of an understatement that people can't fully appreciate unless they've personally experienced it or know those that have.   And safer options fortunately exist in training that are just as effective.  Nothing is 100% of course, but I try to load the dice in my favor as much and as often as possible.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Zero said:


> *Thanks for commenting Kang Soo but as just posted, my previous post may be more on point for you. I will briefly revert though on these qs from you.
> As per my previous response to you, I note your concern with blood exposure and how this is greatly multiplied with a knuckle strike over palm or even knife hand strike in SD without gloves.  When I have used punches outside of sanctioned fights I have never tried to manipulate the head and do not see punches as in the refined motor skills category, quite the opposite - maybe misunderstanding you here.  I have trained in grabbing onto long hair or scarves to immobilse or trap the head when delivering a punch - this is a v nasty move : )
> *
> 
> 
> *Yes, this was predominantly/soley tournament context.  As noted in my previous response to you, one of my sensei is a long standing LEO and also very accomplished tournament fighter - he has great skills but also street reality - and experience in perp apprehension and in cell work and breaking up prisoner fights.  He has knocked out a perp by a head kick wearing uniform and boots. he is an execptional athlete and fighter.  We train in modified pistol grip punch for non-glove punches for "reality" - street/SD situations.
> I have fought for many years and also done well on the national level, have also fought in Europe and had one Japanese invititational - am/was not a bum fighter.  When younger, not now, I was not overly phased about being drawn into unsanctioned fights (I have grown up/mellowed/disengaged ego now(ok, trying on the last one and reaonsably successful)) - I have thus had real street fights and been involved in fights at parties and in bars when younger (I am not full of sh1te and yes, have been wooped myself badly on couple of these occassions). At no time have I ever attacked or assaulted anyone without provocation or response to violence, it is just I should have walked away - or avoided situations had I known better.  I have used closed fist and - as noted on other threads on MT re SD and "outside of tournament fighting" - used head kicks in at least two instances.
> I have apprehended a shop lifter who managed to escape from security guards by doing a piledriver throw and putting on a shoulder lock until security guards caught up.
> I have had to defend myself in a genuine SD situation from being jumped by three male assailents, I punched each one in the face with enough force that they all went down - I did not suffer damage, and cannot recall having any cuts either.
> I would prefer not to go into too much more detail, this is a public forum and everyone should be aware of what they post and say since the Cody Hall findings/case - social posting is evidence etc (you are a LEO so should appreciate this).
> 
> *
> 
> 
> *Please see above response, I have had quite a lot of SD training during my goju years and also from a SD trainer/"expert" (I hate the word expert in that context - he makes an additional living out of training security guards, bouncers etc) who was a highly ranked jujitsu practioner who trained at my old goju club - however, I spend most of my time training on a more tournament focus - not responses as such to knife/gun/mugger attack. I am competent at putting on wrist locks/small locks from the jujitsu training and pretty good at throws etc from a judo background. I have had MMA/freestyle fights so am by no means all stand up. My perspective on the street is more of a strike approach, this is what comes natural and this is what I have found effective. As per the shoplifter, in the right environment and without multiple threats, am happy to throw and do submissions.  I honestly feel the best way to end a lot of trouble is with a simple punch(s) to the jaw/head and nothing else.
> As said, I had the one actual SD situation I was faced with.
> I prefer my martial arts training to be focused on fighting other opponents at my level, ie I train to fight experienced other fighters (I still compete but only fun now as finally starting to age (or finally starting to feel am aging) and need to focus on paying bills etc).
> 
> Am all for using weapons, have had limited knife training and muck around with a kali friend, but nothing flash at all. Am happy to use any variety of to-hand/improvised weapons. I was talking to Zack on acting where you may not be carrying a gun, or knife or have other weapons, improvised or otherwise to hand.
> *
> 
> 
> *Yes, just was not sure what style Zack is coming from and what he is using to take people down.*



Those are some *bold *statements.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Zero said:


> *When I have used punches outside of sanctioned fights I have never tried to manipulate the head and do not see punches as in the refined motor skills category, quite the opposite - maybe misunderstanding you here.  *



No, a punch is a gross motor skill.  The refined motor skill(s) I'm referring to is the 'what comes next'?  In a sport venue you don't really need to worry about it.  In a SD, you may.  An injured hand can and will effect your manual dexterity to the extent of the injury.  And manual dexterity may already be compromised due to adrenaline.  For example, manipulate/operate a firearm (LEO or private citizen), load, reload or clear a jam.  Use a radio or cell phone to call for help.  Something as simple as manipulating small objects like keys to effect an escape.  These things may seem simple while we're all healthy, well and calm sitting in front of a computer.  But we test people routinely in crisis situations when the adrenaline is flowing and you'd be surprised at how difficult some things become.  No add in an injury to compound things.  Unfortunately, MA's training rarely addresses what a person may go through in a crisis situation.  Hitting and kicking a focus pad is nice.  Kata training is great.  But unless we address other things the student isn't likely to have an awareness of many SD things.  That goes bad to the training methodology.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Kong Soo Do said:


> It is of major concern and often times the MA community overlooks this in training.  Bad guys are just that...bad guys.  And they often spend or have spent time in a correctional facility and/or a mental health care facility.  The incident of exposures in these types of facilities are many times higher than 'normal life'.  So the bad guy attacking you...does he have HIV?  Hep C?  TB?  It is a little like playing Russian roulette.  He could be carrying nothing but a bad attitude.  You could pull off a head punch that puts him down and saves the day.  But what if he is carrying something that will alter the course of the rest of your life?  I've known people in that position and to say it sucks is a little bit of an understatement that people can't fully appreciate unless they've personally experienced it or know those that have.   And safer options fortunately exist in training that are just as effective.  Nothing is 100% of course, but I try to load the dice in my favor as much and as often as possible.



That is one of the primary reasons we 'punchers' do thousands of knuckle pushups and other knuckle conditioning exercises over the years and build up callouses to reduce the chances of the skin breaking.


----------



## Zero

Thanks Kang Soo - had wondered what "EOH" was - edge of hand, got it.
Agreed. V limited punches in SD - the one time. However, a reasonable amount of out of ring, gloveless fights, for your average Joe that is not a street thug or gypsey bare-knuckle brawler, just an ordinary citizen, as per my immediately previous post to you, when much younger and (let's not say it, dumber). I have thrown the punch weithout gloves enough times to know it is a very effective weapon and that I can throw it without hurting myself at a good percentage - hopefully, hell, bad stuff can happen(!!). I am a pretty experienced fighterbut I have jammed toes and mis-executed and damaged myself from time to time, such is life. 
I hear all you are saying and the concern re blood contamination but just don't think I got the ability/inclination to stop focusing on punches and replace with a palm strike - so that it would be _automatic_ (that takes a lot of re-hardwiring!!!). Hopefully (and I mean nothing bad your way) given the line of work you are in and what I do (and the way I now behave) I got a lot less chance of needing to act on the street against another so maybe the percentages game is a lot more important to you when it comes to how you fight and strike...


----------



## Kong Soo Do

RTKDCMB said:


> That is one of the primary reasons we 'punchers' do thousands of knuckle pushups and other knuckle conditioning exercises over the years and build up callouses to reduce the chances of the skin breaking.



All I can tell you is that I've done the same thing.  I'll stick with chin jabs, elbow strikes and EOH.


----------



## Zero

RTKDCMB - I know, am embarrassed, am actually very meek, mild, quiet guy. Actually, in all honestly I just co2ked up with the posting skillzz!  : )


----------



## Zero

Kong Soo Do said:


> No, a punch is a gross motor skill.  The refined motor skill(s) I'm referring to is the 'what comes next'?  In a sport venue you don't really need to worry about it.  In a SD, you may.  An injured hand can and will effect your manual dexterity to the extent of the injury.  And manual dexterity may already be compromised due to adrenaline.  For example, manipulate/operate a firearm (LEO or private citizen), load, reload or clear a jam.  Use a radio or cell phone to call for help.  Something as simple as manipulating small objects like keys to effect an escape.  These things may seem simple while we're all healthy, well and calm sitting in front of a computer.  But we test people routinely in crisis situations when the adrenaline is flowing and you'd be surprised at how difficult some things become.  No add in an injury to compound things.  Unfortunately, MA's training rarely addresses what a person may go through in a crisis situation.  Hitting and kicking a focus pad is nice.  Kata training is great.  But unless we address other things the student isn't likely to have an awareness of many SD things.  That goes bad to the training methodology.


OK, understand what you are saying now. Again, I acknowledge there is a risk of damaging your wrist or knuckles but not so much when trained in gloveless punches and conditioned. I prefer, if possible to keep everything gross motor skilled, pulling triggers aside.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Kong Soo Do said:


> All I can tell you is that I've done the same thing.  I'll stick with chin jabs, elbow strikes and EOH.



I like those too.


----------



## Koshiki

Zero said:


> *Yes, just was not sure what style Zack is coming from and what he is using to take people down.*



I'm not really sure what style I'm coming from either, to be honest. It's a "karate club" which calls itself "Taekwondo", but contained mainly Karate formal material, with no Taekwondo material, and has a really strong Chinese background in the movements and training stuff we do. I think I would call it mixed martial arts, were that not already taken by something completely different.

I think Kong Soo Do pretty much covered my responses to the rest of it, probably better than I would have. There really no one way we get people down, but the rare instances where I face-punch tend to be the sort of upright grappling throws, arm bars, etc. that make it an easy thing to follow them down into a deep stance with control of their head, or where you just clumsily end up on the ground on top of someone and go, "oops, I mean, yeah, I *meant* for us to end up here!"


----------



## lklawson

Zero said:


> Thanks Kang Soo - had wondered what "EOH" was - edge of hand, got it.


Edge of Hand blows are quite popular in the WWII "Combatives" circles.  Bear in mind that, often, "Combatives" EoH blows are slightly different from the classical shuto/tegatana from Japanese/Okinowan derived systems, particularly in those from the Cestari lineage.  The most striking difference (hehehe, see what I did there?  "striking"... c'mon now, laugh!) ...err... striking difference is the propensity to extend the thumb at a right angle out and away from the direction of the fingers, while still maintaining the same plane as the palm.  Make a "finger gun" and then extend the other three fingers and you'll have a Cestari style EoH.  Nominally the reason this is done is because it is supposed to tighten the striking edge better.

I will abstain from commenting on whether or not it's "better" but it is different from typical shuto.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Kong Soo Do

lklawson said:


> Edge of Hand blows are quite popular in the WWII "Combatives" circles.  Bear in mind that, often, "Combatives" EoH blows are slightly different from the classical shuto/tegatana from Japanese/Okinowan derived systems, particularly in those from the Cestari lineage.  The most striking difference (hehehe, see what I did there?  "striking"... c'mon now, laugh!) ...err... striking difference is the propensity to extend the thumb at a right angle out and away from the direction of the fingers, while still maintaining the same plane as the palm.  Make a "finger gun" and then extend the other three fingers and you'll have a Cestari style EoH.  Nominally the reason this is done is because it is supposed to tighten the striking edge better.
> 
> I will abstain from commenting on whether or not it's "better" but it is different from typical shuto.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Kirk is correct.  Fairbairn and Applegate discuss this in their books as well (Get Tough and Kill or Be Killed).  I've seen Nelson discuss it in his SD courses as well as Cestari and Damien Ross.  Pros and Cons I suppose.  It may well tighten the striking edge better as Kirk mentions, but a negative that 'could' be placed on it is snagging the thumb on something and hyper-extending it.  I've used it both ways and never had an issue with it personally either way.  Both Fairbairn and O'Neill had extensive CMA experience as well as Judo in common but couldn't tell you if this was a result of that training or something of their own design.  I can see it either way.


----------



## K-man

lklawson said:


> Edge of Hand blows are quite popular in the WWII "Combatives" circles.  Bear in mind that, often, "Combatives" EoH blows are slightly different from the classical shuto/tegatana from Japanese/Okinowan derived systems, particularly in those from the Cestari lineage.  The most striking difference (hehehe, see what I did there?  "striking"... c'mon now, laugh!) ...err... striking difference is the propensity to extend the thumb at a right angle out and away from the direction of the fingers, while still maintaining the same plane as the palm.  Make a "finger gun" and then extend the other three fingers and you'll have a Cestari style EoH.  Nominally the reason this is done is because it is supposed to tighten the striking edge better.
> 
> I will abstain from commenting on whether or not it's "better" but it is different from typical shuto.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


The Shuto strike, in my experience, is normally delivered with a relaxed arm to utilise the weight of the arm. This gives you the 'heavy hand' effect as you accelerate the whole mass. Sticking out the thumb would add tension to the arm and reduce the 'heavy hand' effect of striking through the target. Same principle in both Goju and Aikido.
:asian:


----------



## RTKDCMB

lklawson said:


> Edge of Hand blows are quite popular in the WWII "Combatives" circles.  Bear in mind that, often, "Combatives" EoH blows are slightly different from the classical shuto/tegatana from Japanese/Okinowan derived systems, particularly in those from the Cestari lineage.  The most striking difference (hehehe, see what I did there?  "striking"... c'mon now, laugh!) ...err... striking difference is the propensity to extend the thumb at a right angle out and away from the direction of the fingers, while still maintaining the same plane as the palm.  Make a "finger gun" and then extend the other three fingers and you'll have a Cestari style EoH.  Nominally the reason this is done is because it is supposed to tighten the striking edge better.
> 
> I will abstain from commenting on whether or not it's "better" but it is different from typical shuto.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Bending the thumb in a knife hand strike helps to increase the tension on the hand and makes the striking tool stronger at the moment of impact. Bending the thumb helps to lock the wrist and also makes the striking tool stronger, as long as the thumb does not touch the side of the hand, if the thumb touches the side of the hand then the wrist will be slightly weaker.


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## RTKDCMB

I just saw a fight firsthand today, one guy started a fight, got hit in the forehead by a single punch and was knocked out while the hitter dd not hurt his hand.


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## Zero

RTKDCMB said:


> I just saw a fight firsthand today, one guy started a fight, got hit in the forehead by a single punch and was knocked out while the hitter dd not hurt his hand.



Yes!! (I mean, how sad to have witnessed humans resorting to physical confrontation)  But it does categorically prove I was right all along!!


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Unfortunately, MA's training rarely addresses what a person may go through in a crisis situation.  Hitting and kicking a focus pad is nice.  Kata training is great.  But unless we address other things the student isn't likely to have an awareness of many SD things.  That goes bad to the training methodology.


This has been said before by myself, many others, and possibly you as well.  Martial arts are not self defense curriculums, though self defense can be extracted from them.  If one wants soley to learn to defend themselves, and in a comparatively brief amount of time, the martial arts are usually not the best tool for the job.


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