# Mixed Martial Arts and knife work?



## Cruentus (Aug 14, 2005)

Just wondering if any of you Mixed Martial Artists, or competition based martial artists (Western Boxing, Wrestling, BJJ, Thai Boxing, etc.) supplement your training with knife work.

Is so, what kind and why?

If not, how come?

Just curious...

 
Paul


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## Datu Kelly S. Worden (Aug 14, 2005)

Good Question Paul,

Interestingly, the term mixed martial arts is in the aftermath of systems such as Kajukenbo, Russian Sombo, Jeet Kune Do, Parker Kenpo, Filipino Martial arts, Silat from different regions, and of course all the modified American systems now propagating the arts. This would include most military CQC programs. 

Of course you are referring to those individuals who put more time into one specific art such as BJJ or western boxing. I have noticed in training around North America that the movement is shifting to address more weapon variables and balancing out potential threats from multiple opponents and weapons. 

Yet still there tends to be a dependency towards getting really good at a base art and sometimes ignoring the threat of reality. This is sadly true even in military arts,,, I often state "Duhhhhh concrete is not a mat, grapple there and test the ground you actually walk on!" 

Additionally, a boxer who believes a solid hand combination will offer domination in the street is caught in a similar trap, the rope becomes a concrete wall or the side of a automobile and the kick to the head on a downed fighter is a shock few are willing to address. (It weakens their ego to realize there is a chink in the armor) The same can be said of point fighters and almost any art.

 We all have strategies possibly and opponent could penetrate in our arts,, sometimes for the most complete impact and edged weapon exponent, he lacks firearms training or environment awareness outside of the training hall.

I believe things are changing but big money promoters of specific arts will do their best to bring their art to the front lines by big ad's, tainted and off balanced images of indomitable fighting skill via their art (Classic BJJ ad campaign) The truth is in the fighter who seeks balance in all facets of physical and psychological conflicts. I believe a statement made by Sombo master Dr. Brett Jacques make a lot of sense, "Grappling to is as over-rated today as it was under-rated yester-year!"

As dynamic as my friend "MO" Maurice Smith was in the ring, a impact weapon or a blade changes his whole game plan and admittedly, "He don't have one!"

The arts can be a beautiful lifestyle, sometimes we can seek to be or do more than what rational time can really offer in regards to "Doing it all!"

The arts are a lifetime commitment, educating the path is a long and tedious effort. If foundational hand, feet, trapping, grappling, physical, or psychological, balance is not established sometimes the cart is put in front of the horse,,, Time, common sense awareness, and commitment possibly will provide the connection to comprehend the value of practical defense preparation. 

Hope that was not to far off the topic mark,,,,

Datu Kelly


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## Marvin (Aug 15, 2005)

Hi Paul, I don't know if I'm one of those MMA guys, but I'll throw in my .02. The majority of the knife work we do is defensive, responding to the threat of the weapon. I think showing the knife as a tool of self defense to be used in an aggressive or proactive manner would be irresponsible. Why I say that is because the knife is a deadly weapon, and if an individual thinks that they will be in a position where the will have cause to use deadly force, I would recommend taking a CCW course. As you know, in Michigan it is fairly easy to get a Carry Permit and the carry laws extend only to handguns. And like it or not if a person gets caught with a knife inside their coat, they will bring down more heat than if they get caught with a pistol (that is registered and has a permit). 
If someone really wanted to see offensive knife work, like L.E. or military or even someone wanting to see the historical knife techniques, I guess I would show them. But as a rule we only go defensive.
Marvin


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## Andrew Green (Aug 15, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Just wondering if any of you Mixed Martial Artists, or competition based martial artists (Western Boxing, Wrestling, BJJ, Thai Boxing, etc.) supplement your training with knife work.


 Yes.



			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> Is so, what kind and why?


 The pointy kind?

 We've done all kinds of weapons in there, knives, sticks, staffs, as well as more traditional ones (Nunchaku, tonfa, sai, shield & shortsword, kama... I have a karate/kobudo history...)

 It is integrated into the rest of our training, so MMA with a weapon.  We still clinch, still roll around on the ground, still get some nice bruises 

 What we don't do is train MMA for empty hand stuff, then revert to flow drills and kata for weapons,  We train weapons the same way we train empty hand stuff.

 Why?  Well, for the only reason that matters, it's lots of fun to beat each other with a stick 

 Apart from that weapons work can be done to enchance certain non-weapon skills and emphasis specific tactics.  Crosstraining is a benefit in just about everything.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 15, 2005)

Marvin said:
			
		

> Hi Paul, I don't know if I'm one of those MMA guys, but I'll throw in my .02. The majority of the knife work we do is defensive, responding to the threat of the weapon.


 How can you train defence without training offence?

 In order for someone to be on the defensive, someone else has to be on the offensive. If no one knows what they are doing on the offensive, the defensive guy isn't getting much of a challenge...

 But I also disagree about it being about attacking people with knives.  Teaching someone fencing doesn't make them go out and poke holes in people with swords.  Just teach it like a sport and have fun, leave the self-defence talk out of it.


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## Marvin (Aug 15, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> How can you train defence without training offence?
> 
> In order for someone to be on the defensive, someone else has to be on the offensive. If no one knows what they are doing on the offensive, the defensive guy isn't getting much of a challenge...


mostly we work from the premise that you've already been stuck and controling the knife arm to try to get away or if applicable, draw your sidearm. It doesn't take much knowledge to hurt someone with a knife, you just touch them with it and it cuts. So, not much needs to be learned for the attacker; a poke, a few slashes / cutbacks and a switch.  




			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> But I also disagree about it being about attacking people with knives.  Teaching someone fencing doesn't make them go out and poke holes in people with swords.  Just teach it like a sport and have fun, leave the self-defence talk out of it.


Exactly!  That is what I mean when I talk about the historical knife techniques.



			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Why? Well, for the only reason that matters, it's lots of fun to beat each other with a stick.


Fun is the best reason there is to train!!!

Marvin


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## Cruentus (Aug 15, 2005)

Hi Marvin.

I agree with some of what you said, except I do believe that knives should be taught as part of the force continuem. Especially for civilians more-so then operators of any type (police, military, etc.). 

Why? Because there are a lot of limits to gun carry, even in Michigan where I think we are pretty user-freindly with our CPL laws compared to other states. In many places where the private citizen might be attacked with a weapon, one cannot carry a gun by law. Taverns, Bars, or stadiums (particularly too and from these places while on the street or in poorly lit parking areas) are common places where fights happened and lethal force may be justified or NEEDED, yet you can't carry a gun there. Many places of business or work do not allow you to carry your gun. How about hospitals and universities? A female nurse or college student is particularly at risk going too and from these places, yet no guns allowed.

Many of these places where you can't carry guns, you can carry knives without too much of a hassle. And, a knife is the next best thing for lethal force if you cannot carry a gun.

That said, there are some severe limitations one has with the knife. Suprisingly, these limits aren't so much on the technical side as they are on the legal and psychological side. Technically speaking, I (as well as the average person) can deploy there knife as quickly as one can deploy their firearm under 21 feet away. This is the Tueller rule, but we have tested this at firearms seminars. Most fights occure well under 21 feet away, making the knife a viable tool in a fight even when guns are involved. I don't think the knife is superior technically then the gun, just not as inferior as most people think. The major limitation is legal and psychological. The biggest thing one has to overcome if one carries a knife is the psychological aversion that most sane people will have when it comes to using it. The legal stuff is an issue as well, because as you said, if forced to defend yourself with a knife, you are facing an uphill legal battle for sure.

When I have done my knife clinics my advice has always been "If you want a knife for self-defense, then get your Concealed Pistols license and buy a gun," because that is the best option for defense when one can carry it. I urge that you don't carry your knife for self-defense. You carry your knife for utility purposes, yet it can act as a tool of defense if all else fails, or if you weren't able to carry your firearm. This helps deflect some of the legal trouble from the start.

That all said, I think that the knife can be taught as part of the force continuem if done so in a responsable and realistic matter. This means addressing the psychological and legal issues as well as the technical. 

However, it is not for everyone; like a gun, not everyone is prepared to use the knife. But it is important to address at least, even if your only addressing the issue of "what if he has a knife.."

Paul


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## Cruentus (Aug 15, 2005)

Also...when I say MMA, I know that is vague. Technically I am a MMA too. But, what I mean is competition based MMAers. I am more interested to hear if there is any training dedicated to knife work, or if the focus is geared mostly towards the ring/mat.

Thanks for your replies so far, everyone!

 :supcool:


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## Marvin (Aug 16, 2005)

Good post Paul, you are right on about the 21 feet. I'm sure you've seen the old "surviving edged weapons video". We train with that in mind, when I can remember  . And carrying a knife for utility/tool purposes in not a bad idea... come to think of it, I carry a small cold steel "pocket knife" not a "tactical folder" maybe its just semantics calling it a pocket knife but I do it that way as to keep it straight in my mind why I'm carrying. Incorporating the option of using it as a life saving device when under the threat of violence with the other , hopefully, standard training for the knife such as; cut away from yourself when using, dull knife is more dangerous, knife is not a pry bar, etc would not be a bad idea.



			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> ...I think that the knife can be taught as part of the force continuem if done so in a responsable and realistic matter. This means addressing the psychological and legal issues as well as the technical.
> Paul


That is the most important thing an instructor can do! I don't think its a good idea when instructors only address the technical. When I teach firearm classes, it is around 35% technical, 85% psychological and legal.
Marvin


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## KenpoTex (Aug 16, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> When I have done my knife clinics my advice has always been "If you want a knife for self-defense, then get your Concealed Pistols license and buy a gun," because that is the best option for defense when one can carry it.


 Well put, I think this is a point many MA people miss.


			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> I urge that you don't carry your knife for self-defense. You carry your knife for utility purposes, yet it can act as a tool of defense if all else fails, or if you weren't able to carry your firearm. This helps deflect some of the legal trouble from the start.


 This is a good point, when people ask why I carry a knife it's not "so I can disembowel any dumb SOB that messes with me..."  It's "'cause I use it for all kinds of stuff: opening my mail, cutting the stuborn wrapper off the bag of sunflower seeds, etc."  However, just because I make the point that it's a utility _tool_, I still select my carry-knives based on their suitability for "fighting."  I also feel that you should train with the knife you carry so that you don't face the problem of not being able to deploy it because "I had it 'just in case' but never trained with it because it's primarily for utility purposes."


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## arnisador (Oct 18, 2005)

The BJJ knife defenses I've seen haven't impressed me. But, they seem to take the view that against armed or multiple assailiants you're likely out of luck no matter how well trained you are--which isn't a bad guess, but I still would like  to have a plan!


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## Jerry (Oct 18, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> The BJJ knife defenses I've seen haven't impressed me. But, they seem to take the view that against armed or multiple assailiants you're likely out of luck no matter how well trained you are--which isn't a bad guess, but I still would like to have a plan!


 Since people do survive both situations; I'd prefer to have invested effort in maximizing my chances of success.

Let's be honest, the likelyhood that your opponent has friends or a weapon is far higher than the likelyhood that your opponent has his BB in a combative art. Why keep improving unarmed-single-attacker past that level of competency at the expense of skills for more likely encounters?


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## arnisador (Oct 18, 2005)

This makes good sense to me. It's one reason why I don't do Muay Thai despite their incredible success in one-on-one fights against other styles.


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