# Taijiquan is for health



## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2016)

Taijiquan is for health - From my blog


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## Buka (Mar 24, 2016)

Xue....or any of you other Tai-chi guys, I have some rookie questions. And as a rookie, please be patient and only use small words. 

Obviously, I have no idea what I'm doing yet. I figure it will be ten years before I do. No matter, I ain't going anywhere. Class is great, I just wish it was every night. So....here's what I figure I should concentrate the most on while practicing on my own -

The flow of energy
Proper breathing
Posture
Rooting to the ground (where specified)

Does that sound right?
I don't care about how any of what I'm doing applies to fighting or self defense. I'm just trying to get used to everything and learn. But let me also ask you guys this - when you're not feeling well, does doing a little Tai-chi make you feel better? Does it relax you? It seems to relax me greatly on the one hand, and get me pumped up on the other.

I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks.


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## mograph (Mar 24, 2016)

Buka said:


> Xue....or any of you other Tai-chi guys, I have some rookie questions. And as a rookie, please be patient and only use small words.



No worries! Thanks for keeping an open mind.



Buka said:


> So....here's what I figure I should concentrate the most on while practicing on my own -
> 
> The flow of energy
> Proper breathing
> ...



One of my books suggests this habit:
- relax
- breathe
- feel the ground
- do nothing extra (extraneous, unnecessary)
I would add: "try to feel the air on your skin."
To my mind, these are the means toward your four goals.

As for your goals, I'd probably start with breathing and posture. Be upright and balanced.



Buka said:


> But let me also ask you guys this - when you're not feeling well, does doing a little Tai-chi make you feel better? Does it relax you? It seems to relax me greatly on the one hand, and get me pumped up on the other.


Yes. (to all) IMO, the same form can relax you or energize you, depending on your attention: is it directed towards activating your senses (skin & proprioception) to get you pumped (yang), or is it directed downward, letting your skin hang to get you relaxed (yin)?

If I want to get pumped, sometimes I need help, and doing some movements to a recording of Astor Piazzola's _Libertango_ (with Yo-Yo Ma) works. I do slow movements at two bars per motion, but the music really pumps me up.

Note: all of this works for me, and might not work for everyone. You have to do what works for you.

Whaddaya think, Buka?


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## oaktree (Mar 24, 2016)

My suggestion is not focus on breathing, when the mind is calm and relax the breathe will also be the same. Focus on the form, feel in each posture where is there tension, how is the structure is my knee over my toes which means unbalance and strain on knee, where is my root and center, is my kua or inner thigh area collapsed or open. Examine your posture, examine the energy express on the form are you loose like a wet noodle, peng, tense.


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## oaktree (Mar 24, 2016)

My opinion on Taijiquan for health to me is there are better methods found in qigong, and Baguazhang hence why Baguazhang guys live longer.


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## mograph (Mar 24, 2016)

oaktree said:


> My suggestion is not focus on breathing, when the mind is calm and relax the breathe will also be the same.


Yeah. By "proper breathing" I meant relaxed, somewhat deep and gentle; not forcing breaths to sync with specific movements, and definitely not trying any reversed breathing ... at least until you reach a really high level.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 24, 2016)

oaktree said:


> My opinion on Taijiquan for health to me is there are better methods found in qigong, and Baguazhang hence why Baguazhang guys live longer.



Statistically speaking, My research says your right...my research also tells me Xingyi guys live longer that Bagua and Taiji guys


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 24, 2016)

Buka said:


> Xue....or any of you other Tai-chi guys, I have some rookie questions. And as a rookie, please be patient and only use small words.
> 
> Obviously, I have no idea what I'm doing yet. I figure it will be ten years before I do. No matter, I ain't going anywhere. Class is great, I just wish it was every night. So....here's what I figure I should concentrate the most on while practicing on my own -
> 
> ...



My teachers teacher was one of those taiji guys that when asked about breathing, as it applies to taiji, generally responded with "Yes you should"

Work on postures, get comfortable with them, breath naturally, don't over think it, and all the rest will come. Rooting comes with whole body unity, which comes with proper posture.

Take a look at this

Yang Chengfu Taijiquan Theory 10 Essentials

Yang Cheng Fu's 10 Essential Principles

As for the not feeling well bits, I shall have to send something with a bit more detail than I have time to type at the moment


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## Zeny (Mar 24, 2016)

The best advice i've received in taijiquan is: 'jian dan, chong fu' (easy, repeat). It means, do the form over and over until it becomes easy to you. At that point in time, imagine as if you're a new student learning the form, then do it carefully as if you're doing it for the first time. Then repeat, and repeat.

A master once said 'i have been doing the form for thirty years and i still don't consider myself as proficient in the form'.

With repeated practice comes familiarity, with familiarity comes naturalness, with naturalness comes subtlety and effortless power.


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## oaktree (Mar 24, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Statistically speaking, My research says your right...my research also tells me Xingyi guys live longer that Bagua and Taiji guys


What about that one guy who lived to be 117 years old, and the 256 year old man which the li family claims also did Baguazhang


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## Zeny (Mar 24, 2016)

I think that's more from genetics, good habits and good fortune rather than martial art. Lots of people lived to a hundred without learning any martial art.

But i think my brand of taijiquan makes me live longer than baguazhang


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 24, 2016)

oaktree said:


> What about that one guy who lived to be 117 years old, and the 256 year old man which the li family claims also did Baguazhang



On average, the 256 yr older excluded (I don't believe it) Xingyiquan guys live longer. Wang Ji Wu was 100 and there are a lot of 90 somethings in the list. However if you are looking for the single oldest IMA guy, it appears to be a bagua guy, but that is not enough to bring up the average age to beat the xingyiquan guys


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## Zeny (Mar 24, 2016)

On an interesting note i once joined my wife's 80 plus year old grandma in her class of taichi 'shi ba shi' (18 form). There was chinese music and postures were taken out from the forms and performed individually with 'quick stepping' speed.

I sweat more in this class than i ever did in my own class. Much more health benefit doing this simple form than my own complete forms.


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## oaktree (Mar 24, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> On average, the 256 yr older excluded (I don't believe it) Xingyiquan guys live longer. Wang Ji Wu was 100 and there are a lot of 90 somethings in the list. However if you are looking for the single oldest IMA guy, it appears to be a bagua guy, but that is not enough to bring up the average age to beat the xingyiquan guys


So we're they more shanxi or hebei guys that lived in the 90's. 
Now you got me curious which Baguazhang style lives the longest, how about in Taijiquan you think yang style lives longer then Chen stylist this is actually an interesting topic


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## Buka (Mar 24, 2016)

I have a zillion questions for you guys. But, I gotta' wait until tomorrow. Came home from class (way cool class) ate, goosed, I'm toast. G'night, fellas.


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## Buka (Mar 25, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> My teachers teacher was one of those taiji guys that when asked about breathing, as it applies to taiji, generally responded with "Yes you should"
> 
> Work on postures, get comfortable with them, breath naturally, don't over think it, and all the rest will come. Rooting comes with whole body unity, which comes with proper posture.
> 
> ...



That's a lot of information. (Thanks) We went over some of those things last night. So much to learn, so much to feel. Good thing I'm a young old guy.

Although I'm a newbie I'm feeling pretty good about lifting the head up, sinking the shoulders and elbows, having my waist direct my movement and having my yi lead my chi. The best part for me - it all feels right.


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## Buka (Mar 25, 2016)

oaktree said:


> What about that one guy who lived to be 117 years old, and the 256 year old man which the li family claims also did Baguazhang



I didn't know what "Baguazhang" meant. I googled it. Thank God for google.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2016)

oaktree said:


> So we're they more shanxi or hebei guys that lived in the 90's.
> Now you got me curious which Baguazhang style lives the longest, how about in Taijiquan you think yang style lives longer then Chen stylist this is actually an interesting topic



Look at it again and I do not have it broken down by specific style. I also noticed that I did not have Lu Zi Jian in the list, since when I did it, he was still alive

Without him; Bagua average age was 78 years old.
With him it jumps past Xingyiquan by 0.4 to 80.6 years
Xingyiquan is at 80.2, However this does not include those who trained both Xingyi and Bagua
Taiji comes out on average at 73.5,
but I only have Chen and Yang and it is broken out by styles
Yang Taiji > 71.7
Chen Taiji > 77.75

Xingyiquan and Bagua Combined comes out to 68.75

But you have to take into account total this is only a small sampling of 42 guys. 2 of which I know died because of external forces. One committed suicide (Yang Shaohou) and one was shot during the boxer rebellion (Cheng Tinghua)


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## oaktree (Mar 25, 2016)

Quite a big difference from the Taijiquan guys. I am curious what the factor could be.
When I read interviews with Baguazhang and Xingyiquan masters a lot of more neigong talk even to the point it is getting to the daoist alchemy side. I don't see much talk about that in Taijiquan interviews except for some dan tian rotation and jwing ming yangs approach.


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## ChenAn (Mar 25, 2016)

There is neigong in Chen, and it's an important part of it. For some reason I when I practiced the village method no one mentioned it, but later when I switched to CZK I've been told to practice it dally 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 25, 2016)

Any chance that when you looked this up, you compared it to the people in those areas who don't practice? Would be interesting to see how much of an effect internal arts have on life length compared to no arts, with otherwise similar lifestyles.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2016)

ChenAn said:


> There is neigong in Chen, and it's an important part of it. For some reason I when I practiced the village method no one mentioned it, but later when I switched to CZK I've been told to practice it dally
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



CZK?


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## ChenAn (Mar 25, 2016)

Sorry Chen Zhaokui 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2016)

ChenAn said:


> Sorry Chen Zhaokui
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I should have known that, but I was trying to think if a living CZK. This is what you are getting through Chen Yu, is that correct?


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## ChenAn (Mar 25, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> I should have known that, but I was trying to think if a living CZK. This is what you are getting through Chen Yu, is that correct?


Chen Fake to Chen Zhaokui to Chen Yu


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2016)

Now I get it. Always liked the line from Chen Fake, but never had a chance to train it. Any of my actual Chen training all comes from the CZL side of things. And I know he trained in that a bit, but it is not the same. Had a rather long and interesting conversation with Ren Guangyi, but that hardly counts as training. 

There is another line that always interested me as well was Chen Qingzhou, and I came close to a push hands seminar with his son a few years back, but  that was not the best of weekend and I got lost trying to find the seminar and ended up missing it completely


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## oaktree (Mar 25, 2016)

ChenAn said:


> There is neigong in Chen, and it's an important part of it. For some reason I when I practiced the village method no one mentioned it, but later when I switched to CZK I've been told to practice it dally
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Chen Xiaowang has said Taijiquan is qigong when asked about qigong. He does not mention much about neigong training nor does my teacher mention much about it.
In my opinion, to learn neigong I rather learn it from someone who does daojiao neigong or someone who has a good grasp on theory which I do not see many writers past and present from a Taijiquan side talking or writing about and this goes from Chen, yang, wu and sun. In my opinion if you want to learn neigong learn it from a neigong master as a Taijiquan player may know some but deeper levels are left for those who study daojiao and especially from initiated members.


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## oaktree (Mar 25, 2016)

Further more on neigong use the search function for jadecloudalchemist his writings.


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## ChenAn (Mar 25, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Chen Xiaowang has said Taijiquan is qigong when asked about qigong. He does not mention much about neigong training nor does my teacher mention much about it.
> In my opinion, to learn neigong I rather learn it from someone who does daojiao neigong or someone who has a good grasp on theory which I do not see many writers past and present from a Taijiquan side talking or writing about and this goes from Chen, yang, wu and sun. In my opinion if you want to learn neigong learn it from a neigong master as a Taijiquan player may know some but deeper levels are left for those who study daojiao and especially from initiated members.



I'm not surprised that village branch doesn't have it.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Chen Xiaowang has said Taijiquan is qigong when asked about qigong. He does not mention much about neigong training nor does my teacher mention much about it.
> In my opinion, to learn neigong I rather learn it from someone who does daojiao neigong or someone who has a good grasp on theory which I do not see many writers past and present from a Taijiquan side talking or writing about and this goes from Chen, yang, wu and sun. In my opinion if you want to learn neigong learn it from a neigong master as a Taijiquan player may know some but deeper levels are left for those who study daojiao and especially from initiated members.



Not disagreeing with the learning from s neigong master bit, but there is Qigong training in my flavor of Yang style and Sun Lutang trained and practiced qigong as well. And if you look at just about anything that comes from Feng Zhiqiang (which is rooted in Chen from Chen Fake) ,it is loaded with it


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## oaktree (Mar 25, 2016)

Would be interested in seeing it or reading some of the work I have read Chen xin work
Good stuff however I don't feel it goes as deep as neigong classics found in the daoist cannon.


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## ChenAn (Mar 25, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Would be interested in seeing it or reading some of the work I have read Chen xin work
> Good stuff however I don't feel it goes as deep as neigong classics found in the daoist cannon.



Chen Xin book dedicated to xiaojia (small frame) there not much about neigong


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## mograph (Mar 25, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Would be interesting to see how much of an effect internal arts have on life length compared to no arts, with otherwise similar lifestyles.


Not strictly related to your question, but Dr. Shin Lin at UC Irvine is studying Qigong and Tai Chi. He's a Chen stylist, disciple of Chen Zhenglei. Nice guy, too.
The Laboratory for Mind/Body Signaling and Energy Research


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Quite a big difference from the Taijiquan guys. I am curious what the factor could be.
> When I read interviews with Baguazhang and Xingyiquan masters a lot of more neigong talk even to the point it is getting to the daoist alchemy side. I don't see much talk about that in Taijiquan interviews except for some dan tian rotation and jwing ming yangs approach.



My taiji sifu has a theory on that. Back when he was training he was told Yang Chengfu did not see the need for doctors because he felt taiji was all he needed for health. He new a lot of old taiji guys (in his days in Hong Kong) who felt that way. He thinks that might be why many taiji guys die young by comparison. (my sifu is a doctor by the way).

Look at a lot of the bagua and xingyi guys and you find in them a lot of TCM docs and bone setters.

This could be why a lot of the IMA guys of old died young and/or lived well into old age


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 26, 2016)

Thanks Mograph!


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2016)

mograph said:


> Not strictly related to your question, but Dr. Shin Lin at UC Irvine is studying Qigong and Tai Chi. He's a Chen stylist, disciple of Chen Zhenglei. Nice guy, too.
> The Laboratory for Mind/Body Signaling and Energy Research



Harvard has also done some research as has Beijing University of TCM, but I do not have a link


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## oaktree (Mar 26, 2016)

ChenAn said:


> Chen Xin book dedicated to xiaojia (small frame) there not much about neigong


If you look at the first section it is a all about the heavenly stems, bagua trigrams, he talks about jingluo, he talks about daojiao, he even explains how in the form how it can prevent you from loosing jing so yes a lot of neigong in there, because When he was writing the book he is regarded as the one who focused mostly on neigong.


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## ChenAn (Mar 26, 2016)

oaktree said:


> If you look at the first section it is a all about the heavenly stems, bagua trigrams, he talks about jingluo, he talks about daojiao, he even explains how in the form how it can prevent you from loosing jing so yes a lot of neigong in there, because When he was writing the book he is regarded as the one who focused mostly on neigong.



 Yes there is theory in the beginning of the book, but I don't recall any neigong exercises mentioned. If you give me page number I can check it again


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## oaktree (Mar 26, 2016)

Neigong is in my opinion 90% theory.
And the 10% in my opinion is a blend of theory and focus of something.
Waigong is in my opinion 70% movement and 30% theory because that is why they are so common and popular because they are easier to learn and do, the theory isn't as deep and generally regarded as safe. 
But my point on it was that Chen xins book is the closest I have read that talked about neigong at least going into the realms of the daoist sects that any Taijiquan player or writings. Even Robert Smith's to list book on xing yi talked about a superficial level of neigong.


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## oaktree (Mar 26, 2016)

I think Taijiquan is a great form of exercise like dancing, a decent martial arts, and a mediocre method of qigong training.
I think Baguazhang is more vigorous cardio routine, has more on in depth for qigong and a superior martial art. I think learning actual daojiao neigong is a more superior method of health then both.


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