# Time in Grade...



## Milt G. (Jul 12, 2009)

Hello,
As it relates to Kenpo, or the directly related systems...
How much weight should be given to "time in grade" when it comes to promotion consideration in the mid (say, 4th Dan and above) to upper "Dan" grades?
Have heard many pros and cons, but wish to find out what the consensus is here...
Inquiring minds would like to know. 
Thanks,
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Jul 12, 2009)

Hello,
As an example...

I pretty much believe in the standard of years equal to next Dan rank.
2 years from Shodan to Nidan
3 years from Nidan to Sandan
4 years from Sandan to Yodan
5 years from Yodan to Godan etc...

For quick studies, or gifted students I have seen a year time in grade deducted.

I think that skill can come quickly, but "maturity" takes time.
I do know that sometimes politics can play a roll.

How do people feel about young holders of high Dan ranking?

For me, personally, I have a hard time respecting the 30 year old 6th, or above, Dans.  Sadly, sometimes they may deserve more respect then they get.  But, how much can one know about an art, or life, by age 30?  Certainly, I do not mean to be disrespectful to those younger practitioners.  I was one, once. 

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## sifubry (Jul 13, 2009)

I believe time in grade is very important. I wrote about this on my blog for those interested.

Each instructor needs to assess what the time in grade should be and allow for variances. However, even a "gifted" student still can't be faster in this regard. Learning may be easier but soaking in the art still takes time.

I studied in an art that had 10 ranks of black belt. When you got to 10th, then you were a master -- 1st degree master. There were 10 more ranks of master to go.

Black belt ranks are arbitrary segmenting of knowledge into chunks so the "system" that devises it knows best how to divide it. A cross the board rule does not work well for all styles.

Just as my purple belt isn't equal to a BJJ purple belt, nor a TKD red belt equal to a kempo red belt, all things need to put into perspective. Likewise, a TKD 2nd dan will be different than a BJJ or Kempo 2nd dan. And thes are different from Tai chi ranks where there is no "rank".


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## marlon (Jul 13, 2009)

quick study or not, it takes time, repetition, correction repetition and more to build the proper mechanics into a way of being and moving.  Picking up techniques and forms easily is great, but depth can only come from a constant, consistent sharpening of the sword...did i mention correct repetition....
my thoughts,
Marlon


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## MJS (Jul 22, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> As it relates to Kenpo, or the directly related systems...
> How much weight should be given to "time in grade" when it comes to promotion consideration in the mid (say, 4th Dan and above) to upper "Dan" grades?
> Have heard many pros and cons, but wish to find out what the consensus is here...
> ...


 
Probably one of the most abused topics in the martial arts world today, but its one of my favs, due to the fact that its an out of control issue.  I expressed my views in other threads, most recently in the general martial arts section, but for the sake of talking Kenpo, sure, I'll bite again. 

While there are usually some time frames, I feel that they should not be relied upon.  In other words, if you tell someone that its going to take 3 mos. to get from orange to purple, you can pretty much bet that after the 3mos is up, they'll be expecting to test.  I think that for the lower ranks, more than time should be taken into consideration.  How well can the student perform the material, how well can they make it work on someone, can they understand what they're doing, and most importantly, the persons age.  I'm not a fan of a 12yo 3rd degree black belt.  Yes, some kids will be 'naturals' but those are few and far between, therefore, you may as well set an age for BB.

As for the upper ranks...yes, I'm in favor of waiting 1 year for every degree that you're testing for, as you listed, ie: 2yrs to go from 1st to 2nd degree, 3 for 3rd, etc.  IMHO, rank shouldn't be a goal.  When it happens, it happens.  Instead of people worrying what rank they are, worry about how hard you train weekly, how much teaching and giving back that you're doing, and what you're doing to continue to spread the art in a positive way.  

Just my .02 on the subject.


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## Danjo (Jul 22, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> As an example...
> 
> I pretty much believe in the standard of years equal to next Dan rank.
> ...


 
That's a pretty good rule of thumb. That said, I think that they need to be active the whole time to have it considered time in grade.

Children black belts are not cool IMO. If you take the idea that Judo has and don't allow black belts under the age of 16 (with us it's 18) then things should correct for themselves pretty well. You could theoretically be a 5th degree at 30 by that standard, but you wouldn't be a 7th until you were 43, an 8th until you were 51 and a 9th until you were 60. Even if every rank after 5th required 5 years, you'd be 40 before you saw 7th and 50 before you saw 9th.


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## Danjo (Jul 22, 2009)

Classically, the need to distinguish between levels of competency is in every culture. Whether it is the "apprentice, journeyman, master" designation of the trades, the "student, disciple, master" designation of the Shaolin, or the "Maiden, Mother, Crone" of the pagan religions. These terms lose any meaning if they are handed to just anyone. Think of how silly it would be to call a child "Master" or "Crone" and you will start to see why I have problems with children black belts. 

Or,the next time you see a child black belt, think about calling them "father" or "mother" and how silly that would sound.

"Ah" you might say, "But there are 14 year-old "parents" of children. Yep. We really think highly of them too don't we? Don't we think that there is something wrong when "kids have kids"? Something happened that shouldn't have happened when 14 year-olds have children. Same holds true with children black belts IMO.

Think I stated my position strongly enough?


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## Carol (Jul 22, 2009)

Kiddie black belts are profitable.


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## Danjo (Jul 22, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Kiddie black belts are profitable.


 
Financially.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 22, 2009)

I have fun with this topic. Taking on some personal meaning for me of late. 

I was a 5th black when Mr. Parker died. I am still a 5th black. I think I was over-ranked then, so I'm glad I had a chance to ferment a bit. Been handed some "attaboy" 6ths, 2 by pretty big names, too...but just put 'em in the drawer, cuz I didn't sit a panel for them...I got too many men I respect who I would have to look in the eyes while wearing that extra stripe, and won't do it to them or to myself.

Since Mr. P passed, guys who didn't even take kenpo at the time have promoted past me...way past me. Funny thing is, I don't mind; they have to wear it, not me. I won't promote just for kicks and giggles, and there are a few reasons why.


I have a crappy memory for dance routines. Testing requires I know everything on the tips of my fingers. I have a dickens of a time making associations between technique names, and the tech the name refers to. "Show us...Dancing Twirl of Storming Doom"...I go blank, until someone says, "It's the one where you go like this...". AHA!!! Lights go on, and I can move just fine. But try telling a room full of seniors "could you hum a few bars until I pick up the tune?"
Guys like Rich Hale & Dennis Conatser. Old kenpoists, both. Rich just recently accepted a promotion from 4th to 5th, yet is arguably one of the more studied brains in American Kenpo, with a knowledge base that shames more than half the guys with twice his rank. Dennis Conatser is another one ... a true protoge of the old man, and only in the last couple years accepted a promotion from 5th to 6th; but you'd be hard put to find a 10th who owns a fraction of the understanding he does. Meanwhile, guys who were brown belts in 1990 and maybe met Mr. P. once or twice have shot on to 7th and 8th degree blacks; some who were 1st degrees have shot to 9th and 10th. Some of the famous 10th degrees were only 4ths in 90. Some guys don't mind having one of these cats (Rich or Dennis) out for a seminar, and being put to shame by someone with half the stripes. It would embarrass me, so I ain't in any hurry; don't feel like getting my backside handed to me by Rich while wearing a belt that outranks his, or made to look absolutely foolish in a Q&A with the Golden One, again while wearing something equal to or greater than the numerical value of his own. Tend to think I'm in good company here in the midlands.
Testing: I'm an old, busted joint. Bad back, bad neck, SLAP lesions in both shoulders, pinched nerves all through my spine, list goes on; I don't wanna bore you... I won't go to a 6th without doing my thing for a panel of my seniors, any one of whom has full rights to veto. Getting ready for that panel would mean aggravating a bunch of old injuries...sleepless nights in pain, popping advil like M&M's on movie night. It would mean -- so I could remember stuff (see first bullet) -- doing the entire system every day, starting from about 6 months prior to the exam. So that when they say "menacing whirl of storming death", I can go "oh yeah...I know that one" and pop it off, no prob. The amount of physical discomfort that process would create? Nah. Let the young'uns have it.
Now, as an instructor evaluating and promoting my students, time in grade is meaningless. You know it, or you don't; you can make it work, or you can't. I inherited a 2nd degree brown student from another school a couple years ago; just promoted her to 1st degree brown/3 stripes prolly a month ago. Her prior instructor passes her the other night and says, "If you'd stayed at my school, you'd be a 3rd black by now". It was supposed to be an insult -- the implication being that I don't know kenpo, and can't teach her what she needs for her stuff. 

I resented the implication, cuz the guy doesn't know bupkus about what I do or what I know, but feels snarky enough in his lineage-based arrogancia to make a comment of that ilk. But I couldn't help chuckle that -- to him -- rank was an issue of time, not development. The young lady in question? Learning the lethal applications of finger set, and developing the finger strength to make it happen; learning alternate variations of the sets and forms that engrain advanced movement patterns in memory and coordination; working BJJ, Hawaiian bone breaking, Japanese jujutsu, and Judo; working basics on heavy bags, focus pads, makiwara, and lead-shot filled medicine balls & buckets of rice, so she can take the resultant skills and abilities back to her kenpo to make it ever so much more nasty. 

Oh...and we been doing more sparring and randori, too, along with the JKD, savate, and arnis.

When she shows the DEVELOPMENT to warrant first black, I'll put her throguh a crisis-&-observation marathon, and if she doesn't screw it up, promote her. Shhe may have all her techniques and forms, or she may lack a few; doesn't matter to me, becuase the purpose of the techs and forms is to foster skill development. She may have be early with not enough time in grade to make the critics happy, or she may not be ready in her DEVELOPMENT for many more years beyond that.

Thing is -- when she's ripe, I'll strap it on her without reservation. Not before, no matter how long it takes, or how many years she has put in. And in my pea-little brain, she'll be a lot better fighting artist when she finally straps on that 1st, than she ever would have been strapping on a dance choreographers 3rd, 4th, or even 5th.

D.


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## Carol (Jul 22, 2009)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> \
> 
> Thing is -- when she's ripe, I'll strap it on her without reservation. Not before, no matter how long it takes, or how many years she has put in. And in my pea-little brain, she'll be a lot better fighting artist when she finally straps on that 1st, than she ever would have been strapping on a dance choreographers 3rd, 4th, or even 5th.
> 
> D.




And I bet when she does get tot that point, that black belt will mean more to her than a show-up-twice-a-week-and-make-sure-the-ACH-clears 3rd Black.


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## searcher (Jul 22, 2009)

Danjo said:


> I think that they need to be active the whole time to have it considered time in grade.


 

Great point.    If a person is inactive in a style I don't consider them in a position to attain a higher rank.

And really, after say 4th or 5th Dan, who cares anymore.   If there is "no more material to learn," then why should you care about it.     Does that make sense to anyone outside of the voices in my head?   For me, if there is more to learn and it requires me to be a higher rank to get the information from an instructor, then I want the rank.    So I can get the material.    If not, then I don't care about more rank.    I just want my skillset as complete as I can get it.    JMHO.


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## Milt G. (Jul 22, 2009)

MJS said:


> As for the upper ranks...yes, I'm in favor of waiting 1 year for every degree that you're testing for, as you listed, ie: 2yrs to go from 1st to 2nd degree, 3 for 3rd, etc. IMHO, rank shouldn't be a goal. When it happens, it happens. Instead of people worrying what rank they are, worry about how hard you train weekly, how much teaching and giving back that you're doing, and what you're doing to continue to spread the art in a positive way.
> 
> Just my .02 on the subject.


 
Hello,
I fully agree.  Too much emphasis on rank, title, and position these days.

Of course, you know us Americans...  "I want it all, and I want it now".
Is it an individual problem, or a societial problem???  I hope we find out soon and "fix" it. 

Thanks for your reply!
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Jul 22, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Children black belts are not cool IMO. If you take the idea that Judo has and don't allow black belts under the age of 16 (with us it's 18) then things should correct for themselves pretty well. You could theoretically be a 5th degree at 30 by that standard, but you wouldn't be a 7th until you were 43, an 8th until you were 51 and a 9th until you were 60. Even if every rank after 5th required 5 years, you'd be 40 before you saw 7th and 50 before you saw 9th.


 
Mr. Weston,
I agree.  Some systems give "Jr." black, and I am OK with that.  No adult (regular) blacks under 16.  For the gifted student, 16, or 17, perhaps.  18 years old as the standard, I think.

As I travel these days I see many young adults wearing high ranking.  I am not sure I am comfortable with this.  But, if they are not my students there is nothing I can do about it.  Not really any of my business.  Instructors have to be able to administer their school/system as they see fit and meets their program's criteria.

I think this has been a bigger problem (or at least, I have noticed it more) for only the last 15 years, or so, I think?

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Jul 22, 2009)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I have fun with this topic. Taking on some personal meaning for me of late.
> 
> I was a 5th black when Mr. Parker died. I am still a 5th black. I think I was over-ranked then, so I'm glad I had a chance to ferment a bit. Been handed some "attaboy" 6ths, 2 by pretty big names, too...but just put 'em in the drawer, cuz I didn't sit a panel for them...I got too many men I respect who I would have to look in the eyes while wearing that extra stripe, and won't do it to them or to myself.
> 
> ...


 
Great post, Mr. "D."...
Thank you.

I agree.  You have to feel comfortable, with "yourself" first, to accept, and wear ranking.  You play, and are welcome, in a field full of some of the best Kenpoists there are.  You are one of the hardest working senior instructors I know of...  I do not know of any "senior" that would not support FULLY, a 6th for you.  Except for "you". 

That aside, I agree on your time in grade thoughts and criteria.  I was 9 years as a 4th.  My only exception would be for the student that was "unable" for some reason beyond their control to perform at an expected level.  Some consideration should be given in that case, and all cases are different, of course.

I know of an instructor who left the area.  Before he left he promoted all of the upper belts one level.  No test, no expectations.  Not one of them felt good about it.  Some did not accept it at all.  Most (that even stayed in Kenpo) placed themselves in a position to sit in front of a board and test for the level they held.  In this case, without the candidates giving their due, the promotions were counter productive from a mental and emotional point of view.  At least two left Kenpo just because of that. 

I agree.  All levels, no matter how low or high, should sit in front of a board and be accountable for their level of understanding.  Of course, any physical limitations will have to be considered, as well.  I think the reputation of every teacher depends on this "accountability" on some level.  Every teacher carries the reputation of their system on their shoulders.  The reputation of their Kenpo, and Kenpo in general.

Thanks, again, for your interesting post!
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Jul 22, 2009)

Danjo said:


> That said, I think that they need to be active the whole time to have it considered time in grade.


 
Amen!
   

Thanks,
Milt G.


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## still learning (Jul 22, 2009)

Hello,  For most black belts and those who are or wants higher ranks...that fine for the schools and to the student...!


Off course on the streets...the true test of the ranking can be found on the real streets...where ranking has NO meaning...

Time in grade for the older students is fine......like the Peter Princlples...life is like a curve.....in the beginning...young and strong...middle age..ripen/peak...than the older you get...the body ages..slows down....Knowledge does grow with time....body doesn't grow...

Americans...were brough up..to believe in rankings....a part of our society growths...

  NO longer have rank...stop training...getting old! ...moving very slow today...."still can poke your eye!"

Aloha,


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