# Martial Arts Contracts



## MJS (Jul 23, 2008)

I came across this article that was in my paper on Sunday, but the online version is on today, so I wanted to post it for discussion. This gentleman works for the paper. He is basically a person you can contact regarding consumer protection issues. He pretty much goes to bat for you and does his best to help with your situation.

So, in this article, its about a Mother who enrolled her child in a MA program. Basically her son began to lose interest and wanted out. The school was initially giving her a hard time, but his guy assisted her in getting out of the contract.

I thought we could open this up for discussion, with your thoughts on the article, as well as for the school owners out there, how you go about dealing with contracts.


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## RevIV (Jul 23, 2008)

first i think this guy is out of line stating it is the instructors fault if someone fails a test.  I have heard this from fellow martial arts school owners also and i told them my feelings on that too.  I do not put people up for testing unless i have seen that they can do it, but people have bad days and if they have one at the test they fail, if you cannot fail do not call it a test, call it a graduation like so many schools do now.  As for long term contracts - thats just not smart -  I have two agreements at my school, 6 months and 1 year. You pay less for the 1 year but i am not going to let little johnny out because his parents are not willing to show commitment.  I will let them out for standard, moved to far, injury and so on.  If you notice most people want out in the summer time and every year my friends without agreement policies at their school find themselves going into debt and do not dig out until November.  A very successful Dojo owner once said to me.  When the families come in and say they are going out of town for a month and do not want to pay, he just merely asks them to show him the letter that the mortgage co., gym , and car payment letter says that they did not have to pay them either since they were not going to be driving or be home.  This country is turning into a place where it is no ones fault and ignorance is ok.  We see it everywhere, people doing things way beyond their means.  its crazy...


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 23, 2008)

Short answer--I'm against them.

But it's only to be expected as soon as we took it into our heads that it was OK to teach MA's to persons under 18 just to make a buck, and we've done it to ourselves.


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## MJS (Jul 23, 2008)

RevIV said:


> first i think this guy is out of line stating it is the instructors fault if someone fails a test. I have heard this from fellow martial arts school owners also and i told them my feelings on that too. I do not put people up for testing unless i have seen that they can do it, but people have bad days and if they have one at the test they fail, if you cannot fail do not call it a test, call it a graduation like so many schools do now. As for long term contracts - thats just not smart - I have two agreements at my school, 6 months and 1 year. You pay less for the 1 year but i am not going to let little johnny out because his parents are not willing to show commitment. I will let them out for standard, moved to far, injury and so on. If you notice most people want out in the summer time and every year my friends without agreement policies at their school find themselves going into debt and do not dig out until November. A very successful Dojo owner once said to me. When the families come in and say they are going out of town for a month and do not want to pay, he just merely asks them to show him the letter that the mortgage co., gym , and car payment letter says that they did not have to pay them either since they were not going to be driving or be home. This country is turning into a place where it is no ones fault and ignorance is ok. We see it everywhere, people doing things way beyond their means. its crazy...


 
Well, you're not alone Jesse, as the remark about the passing of the tests caught my eye as well.  



> Two weeks went by without a call from Shirley. She got tired of waiting and sent me an e-mail asking for help. She said she knew she had made a mistake by signing the contract but felt it was unfair for her to have to continue to pay when her son was no longer interested. Not only did he not pass his last test, he is now spending half his summer with his father, who lives out of state. (By the way, when a martial arts student fails a test it is my belief that the fault lies with the instructor and not the student. A good instructor will not permit a student to take a test without being convinced that it will be successful, especially in the lower levels.)


 
The above part pretty much makes it sound like there was a guarantee that the kid would pass, no matter what.  I'm sorry, I don't care how long this guy trained or what the mother thinks...the bottom line is that while the inst. should not put someone up to test unless they're ready, just because they're testing does not mean that they still can't fail.  Sure, some schools have a pre-test, where the material is shown and the test is basically a 'show' so to speak, for people coming to watch, if the student stands there with a blank look, can't do a tech., can't do a kata...then why the hell should they pass????

As for the contracts...I can't really comment too much on that because a) I don't own a school and b) the contract was taken care of by the school owners, not me.  However, I do like what you suggest.  And you're right...when I go on a cruise for a week, and the TV isn't turned on for a week, nor the lights, I still get a bill for that time.  The elect. company or the cable co. don't give me a weeks worth of credit because those things weren't used.  

I don't know what the school owner or the inst. or whoever dealt with this woman said to her, but obviously there was some miscommunication.  If the school wasn't clear, shame on them.  If the person joining doesnt ask the proper questions, shame on them!  I'm sorry, but I don't sign my name to anything without reading thru it, especially if its something that is involving a contract or a large sum of cash.


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## shihansmurf (Jul 23, 2008)

RevIV said:


> If you notice most people want out in the summer time and every year my friends without agreement policies at their school find themselves going into debt and do not dig out until November.  A very successful Dojo owner once said to me.  When the families come in and say they are going out of town for a month and do not want to pay, he just merely asks them to show him the letter that the mortgage co., gym , and car payment letter says that they did not have to pay them either since they were not going to be driving or be home. ...



If you are unable to teach for a period of a few weeks do you pro-rate? If you don't teach then should you get paid?

Do you utilize junior/assistant instructors? If I signed up t have you teach me and one of your students does all of the instructing do I still have to pay even though I'm not receiving the promised product?

If you have noticed that most people want out in the summer and you haven't adjusted your financial planning to compensate for the drop in income is that the students fault? 

Do you post an itemized list of all fees expected from the student without the possibility that the list could change with no prior notice?

Does the student receive a pro-rated refund if you're late to class/ cancel class?

Is the student compensated for participating in demonstration, competitions , or fundraisers? In reference to the above question about assistant instructors: Are they paid?

Should you elect to discontinue your class do you stop charging?

I have had a couple of bad experiences with contracts in the past so if a school has a required contract it immediately ceases to be a place where I'll train. 

I apologize for the hostile tone in this post. I have thought long and hard on the issue of contracts from both sides of the fence and I am honestly interested in your answers to the above questions. Too often the contracts are there to protect the instructor and are incredibly one sided.
I am force to wonder how an instructor would respond if a student requires him to add the following provisions to the contract:

*KARATE STUDENT BILL OF RIGHTS* 1. The Karate instructor agrees that he will be the instructor of all classes, actively teaching and not observing or being assisted by his students or assistants. For each class the instructor does not teach which is taught by a substitute, a $10.00 dispersal shall be made to the customer.


2. The instructor agrees that the facilities shall be clean and in working order at all times. The instructor shall provide up-to-date and immaculate toilet facilities along with a sink, charged soap dispenser, and paper towel dispenser and trash can that is emptied nightly. The floor of the bathroom and the dojo itself shall be disinfected daily. Any spills or mess shall be cleaned up immediately upon discovery by the staff of the Karate school and not by the students. All cleaning to be performed by the instructor and his staff - never the students.


3. The instructor agrees that the student need not participate in any demonstrations or other marketing/advertising events on behalf of the school in order to be selected for tournament participation or rank promotion. The instructor shall compensate students for their participation in such events in cash at the rate of $25.00 per hour should they volunteer to participate.


4. Rank examinations shall only be held between the hours of 9am and 5pm on Saturdays at least six times per year. No training session longer than one hour shall be held immediately before or during the rank examination. Automatic promotion shall be the result for each examination instance less than six held during the year.


5. The club by-laws shall be provided in writing and free of charge to the student within 14 days of attaining membership. Should the student find the by-laws in any way objectionable, all agreements are immediately revoked and all fees must be immediately refunded.


6. The school must disclose any and all fees and charges for all services and products offered by the school in writing immediately before any membership agreement can be considered active or any fees coming due. This includes disclosure of rank test fees, certification fees, monthly tuition, uniform prices, and any other required or conditional charges or fees. Fee and price amounts must remain fixed in place for the student until December 31 of the current year.


7. All classes shall begin on time. On-time shall be defined as within 120 seconds of the exact hour that they are previously scheduled to begin. Classes that begin late shall result in a $5.00 refund for that class to the student if present.


8. The instructor shall not at any time attempt to restrict or control the behavior of the student outside of his classroom environment before or after the published schedule for start and end times of classes. This includes attempts to enforce Japanese etiquette, use of titles or special address, symbols, secret handshakes, slogans, sounds, chants, cheers, or any other behaviors. This shall also include attempting to restrict or discourage the student from participating in any other activity, including the martial arts activity of a competing business or non-profit organization that teaches the same subject.


9. The student shall be allowed to hold membership in as many organizations and schools as the student shall choose, and the instructor shall take no action nor attempt to discourage this behavior.


10. The instructor shall not hold the student accountable for the other students behavior or performance. The instructor shall not ask the student to teach classes nor to tutor other students at any time. The instructor shall perform all teaching himself, and the student shall not be asked to be tutored by nor tutor any other student in the class nor provide leadership to other students in the class.


11. The instructor shall not require membership in an overseer organization or governing body. The student shall join only if the student chooses. No conditions may be placed on the student, either coercion or limitations, if the student chooses not to join any governing bodies or organizations.


12. The instructor shall not lead class while practicing himself. He shall practice during other hours outside of the class, and the student shall be given full attention of the instructor during class hours.


13. The instructor will provide instruction for the duration of this agreement. Should the Karate school close, the instructor will provide private lessons to the student in their home for the remainder of the agreement or refund to the student double the fees that were paid to the instructor for the original agreement amount.

14. The student shall never be punished, humiliated, or singled out by the instructor when late for class. The student shall be allowed to quietly join the class without having to perform a ceremony or wait for acknowledgment on the side of the training area

The above Karate Student Bill of Rights was written by Rob Redmond and is posted to 24fightingchickens.com 

Would any of you instructors that use contracts agree to these terms? 

Again I mean no disrespect to you personally, RevIV, I realize that it could be taken that way and again extend apologies if needed. I am interested in your replies as an aforementioned contract supporter?

Mark


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## RevIV (Jul 23, 2008)

shihansmurf said:


> If you are unable to teach for a period of a few weeks do you pro-rate? If you don't teach then should you get paid?
> 
> Do you utilize junior/assistant instructors? If I signed up t have you teach me and one of your students does all of the instructing do I still have to pay even though I'm not receiving the promised product?
> 
> ...


 
I will go on the Bill of Rights later.

I am cooking and watching my 6 week old right now.  I will try to answer questions but maybe not in exact order.
1. The person signing up for Martial lessons is signing up for lessons and what that dojo has to offer.  At no time do i tell parents that i will be the one teaching their children.  I will talk to them about how great my asst. instructors are that i trained them personally and have completed 100's of hours of training on how to teach.
  2. Does the owner of a store not get paid if his employees are the only ones working and the owner is away?
  3. If i discontinue class no one is charged.  
4.  I have a close network of friends and if I could not teach someone would cover for me.  The Chief instructor of one of our schools came down with Mono.  Instructors from my school divided up the classes for the month and taught for him..  We are a business but if you stay long enough you see we are a family.  I am not a dance school that puts on a giant .  
5.  I have adjusted for people not wanting to come in the summer -  I offer twice the classes for the same price. I run morning through evening classes all summer long to make the families hectic schedules as easy as possible.  If they go on vacation I give them private lessons for free to cover any time past 1 week on a true vacation.  If i did not want to run this as a full time job I would do it part time and do the things you have said.  I would not have a giant overhead that needs to be paid every month.
And no I am not offended by any of these statements or questions.  For many years I worked in a non-profit dojo in the city.  I earned my degree in Social Work following in the footsteps of my teacher.  Was never paid and the instructor took a loss every year.  I had other jobs and no family.    
  when people sign up I am honest.  Tell there 5 year old it will be almost 9 years before they can be considered for black belt.. That is a huge deterent for the younger class, my bad for business my good for inner self.
   This is my living, for 9 years I was running a dojo with no agreements and my rent kept going up and I watched more than a half dozen other schools go out of business because they did not have agreements and could not make it through the summers.  I now have a great new location and realized i was stuck because a bank does not see month to month agreements as regular income.  I told all my students this and all were happy to sign that paper.  Now i can show a bank how much i am bringing in and have a little more borrowing power.
     Every student at my school is with me for about 2 1/2 months as a trial.  They all know that at the end of that period they can make a decision to sign up or find somewhere else no hard sale, no used car salesman just an honest business person making a resonable agreement with someone who is looking to be better themselves or their children.  Again i took nothing to heart.  I have seen some sleazy business tactics and it makes us all look bad.  over 90% of the people who come in do not even know there is more then black belt, they would be easy to take advantage of.


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## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2008)

shihansmurf said:


> If you are unable to teach for a period of a few weeks do you pro-rate? If you don't teach then should you get paid?
> 
> Do you utilize junior/assistant instructors? If I signed up t have you teach me and one of your students does all of the instructing do I still have to pay even though I'm not receiving the promised product?
> 
> ...


I've got problems with lots of that.  Beginning with the mercantile approach (after all, I'm VERY non-profit!).  You pay dues to cover rent of the facility, purchase of needed equipment, and occasionally I even get some gas money.  I don't charge more for additional training sessions; I don't charge less for fewer.  Does your homeowner's association adjust the dues for the length of the month?

There are times when I can't teach; I may send a substitute or arrange a special training session -- or assign a select senior student to instruct.

There are times when I will have a senior student instruct under my supervision.  That's how they'll learn to teach.  Martial arts is not simply an athletic activity; when I train a black belt, they can perform as an instructor.  Some are not ideally suited to do so -- but all are capable.

The overall association provides additional training opportunities for me and my students, as well as competition opportunities and the simple fact of some larger body to play within.  Membership also, in our association's case, carries certain insurance benefits while training.

The class or school may close for a number of reasons.  I may not be able to honor a commitment to teach x number of students privately in their homes; I do have to feed and clothe my own family.

I do agree with elements of the list:  outside of class, I'm Jim.  Or my professional titles.  Not Coach, Instructor, Saya, Sabumnim, Sensei, or Grand Googly Woggly, for example.

What your bill of rights describes is a good model for an aerobics class or some other similar exercises -- but not for something that goes beyond mere physical activity.  If that's all your martial arts are, that's fine.  But that's not how I was taught, nor is it how I teach.


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## ArmorOfGod (Jul 23, 2008)

Honestly, I only skimmed the article, but I can't help but immediately think: who signs up their 9-year old for a 4 year program at $140 per month and feels it is wrong when they are held to the contract they signed with their own hand?
If you sign a contract, you have to pay for the alloted time.  Pure and simple.

I detest contracts in ma schools, but if they are there, then the parent has to pay what they agreed to pay.  They were never forced to sign that payment agreement.

AoG


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## Kwan Jang (Jul 24, 2008)

I wonder if the "crusading journalist" would have the same attitude if one of his advertisers wanted out of their contract.


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## stickarts (Jul 24, 2008)

Kwan Jang said:


> I wonder if the "crusading journalist" would have the same attitude if one of his advertisers wanted out of their contract.


 
Great point! When the subject of contracts comes up here there is often a lot of emphasis placed on the cons to the client. That's a valid concern. There are many points of view to consider. For example, to look at the opposite side, it is very difficult when clients want the services but then fail to pay. Contracts help give the provider a bit more leverage to receiving the payment due to them. I can tell you as a school owner its very disappointing when a student takes classes but then avoids paying. Fortunately for us we have attracted very good clients but when this has happened it is still frustrating, disappointing, and discouraging. In my view, contracts can be great when used in a fair manner and both parties act with integity, or they can be terrible when misused. My experience has been that the way in which we use contracts has resulted in the pro's far outweighing the cons. Contracts help to keep two-way expectations clear with the clients, however, being fair and trustworthy and building a positive relationship with students is what is important and a contract, even a good one,  alone can't take the place of that.


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## stickarts (Jul 24, 2008)

Regarding the testing, my view is that the school reserves the right to pass a student or not as long as you can justify it. We use a pre-test format and the expectation is that it will not be signed off by the instructor unless the student is operating at the proper level. The student goes into the testing ceremony properly prepared and we do not expect to fail them because they should be prepared and failing them at a ceremony in front of their peers, family, friends, and teachers is not promoting the self esteem that we are supposed to be building, especially in the young children. However, that does not mean passing is a given.
If a poor attitude is demonstrated, or there was somehow a breakdown in the testing process and the student really shouldn't be there, then a discussion would take place behind closed doors with the student / parent and specific reasons would be given for the students not passing and specific instructions would be given as to what is needed to be improved upon for the student to retain or gain the ranking.
As a parent myself, I know it is difficult seeing your child fail anything. You love them so much. However I can respect a school that provides a quality program and gives us a clear path for our child to succeed, even if its demanding.


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## Lynne (Jul 24, 2008)

I'm on the fence about contracts.  At our school, we sign a contract for either six months or one year.  I know it's also a business.  Master R has two buildings and I'm sure there is a lot of overhead.  He also has at least 14 paid instructors.  And he has his own family to clothe and feed.  Contracts keep people from dropping out without good reason (illness, injury, moving away).  If people dropped out willy-nilly, he couldn't stay in business.

When my daughter and I joined black belt club the contract was extended by three years.  Since we are determined to reach black belt, I don't have too much of a problem but...as someone warned me about a year ago, things can change.  I just found out that for my daughter and I to achieve black belt that we must attend a summer camp as well as an annual competition that requires travel to Massachusetts for both.  The problem is $ for one thing.  My husband would be going which means we have to pay camp tuition for him as well (yes, he could choose not to go but we only have one car right now - I guess I could rent one next year).   We have to kennel the dog.  There is hotel and gas.  On and on.

We also have to participate in our school's annual competition or we are not allowed to test the following few months.  It is not cheap for two either.  A lot of my classmates don't like this either.  We don't say too much however.  We don't stand around complaining and whining a whole lot.  It was just a shock to us.  But we look at it as part of the discipline of MA.

In one way, contracts seem morally wrong to me regards martial arts.  On the otherhand, if you want to support yourself and your family, you still have to run the school like a business.  And that means contracts, registration fees, and monthly tuition I suppose.


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## jks9199 (Jul 24, 2008)

Contracts aren't evil.  Contracts that bind someone for long terms with no way to get out are unfair.  But I understand why a commercial school owner (even if it's only a part-time job for the guy) needs to know that they're going to have $x per month, too.  I've got a gym membership.  It is, of course, governed by a contract.  It's worth the money to me to have the convenience of going there when I want to -- even if some months I don't go at all.  One thing they've done recently that I liked is they set the contract for an initial term -- then it automatically continues month to month, unless cancelled.

Regarding testing:  Testing opportunities should be scheduled, if the promotion process is based on testing.  There shouldn't be any automatic pass in any testing situation; if so, all you do is cheapen the meaning of the test and grading.  

Mandatory participation...  I'm a little conflicted here.  If you're receiving the association's (whether it's a national group or just the school) endorsement, you need to jump through their hoops and be an active participant.  At the same time -- the group has the obligation to recognize the impact on its members, and balance that.  Some folks work weekends, meaning that a "weekend seminar" means taking a good chunck of a week off (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) ; others simply can't afford a week off here and there.  There's a balancing act that needs to be done.

Black belt clubs... I don't like these.  Too often, it seems that I hear too much about about how certain training is only open to club members, or that club members get the information or opportunities for testing that aren't available to non-club members.  Or just that you're not going to make black belt unless you sign up for the club... or that members WILL make black belt in the contracted time.  That just doesn't seem right to me.


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## Grenadier (Jul 24, 2008)

Every school wants committed students.  Contracts are simply a way of making sure that you get them.  I realize, that some people aren't going to like what I have just said, but because they're obligated to pay, they're going to at least want to get their money's worth.  

If you're a school owner / manager, if you have a school that lets a student pay for just the months they decide to attend, you'd better have at least 4-5 months of reserve income stashed away, since for the most part, those summer months are going to have smaller classes.  If you can survive those lean months, then more power to you, but at least having contracts in place gives you a much more solid income base.  

Students will go on vacation, etc., and that's perfectly understandable.  Just allow them to make up the missed classes, and allow them to "double up" on their hours.  This way, they still get their money's worth.  



A well-written contract that is fair, should include "out clauses."  There are some things that are beyond the student's control, and in those circumstances, I'd have no problem cancelling the contract.  

For example:

If a student moves, and relocates to a place that is a certain number of miles away from any of the school's locations, then cancelling the contract should be OK.  Families are going to relocate at times, since the job market can be awfully fickle.  High school graduate students leave for college, and should not be punished for doing so.  

If a student cannot continue due to health reasons, mental or physical, and cannot find a replacement to step in to take over the original contract, then cancelling should be OK.  

There are other situations that are perfectly acceptable, of course, but for the most part, if you signed a contract, you should abide by the terms.  If you aren't comfortable with the contracts available, then it's probably better that you don't sign it.


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## RevIV (Jul 24, 2008)

I am not a fan of the black belt club either.  It shows a sort of Classism within the dojo.  Some people just cannot afford to sign up for the black belt club so they get discouraged by feeling inferior not only economicaly but also Material wise as well.  I do not mandate anything besides knowing your material.  We run 2 tournaments a year and seminars that we encourage but do not punish if you do not go.


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## shihansmurf (Jul 24, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I've got problems with lots of that.  Beginning with the mercantile approach (after all, I'm VERY non-profit!).  You pay dues to cover rent of the facility, purchase of needed equipment, and occasionally I even get some gas money.  I don't charge more for additional training sessions; I don't charge less for fewer.  Does your homeowner's association adjust the dues for the length of the month?
> 
> There are times when I can't teach; I may send a substitute or arrange a special training session -- or assign a select senior student to instruct.
> 
> ...



While the way you run your school sound like a great program you are not really the type of  school or instructor that inspired the bill of rights, I presume, as I am not the author. I just found the article interesting and relevant to the discussion.

I note that you don't charge more for additional training sessions, although you would be well within your rights to do so,  I think that the student would be well within his rights to demand a refund if you tught less than he paid for. If you went to McDonald's and ordered a Big Mac would you pay for it if you only got one All Beef Patty and no Special Sauce? How are karate classes any different?

Having a senior student teach periodicaly under you supervision is a far cry different than "Yeah, I know you signed up to train under me, but my brown belt needs to learn to teach so here you go. I'll see you on test day". I've experienced this. It is a sort of false advertising, bait and switch. I find the practice dishonest and have left a school over this very fact.

I don't object to things like student instructors, structured class rules, most traditions, and habits that we have attached to our sport. Where I have a problem is with most of the predatory buisiness practices that many teachers and orgs engage in. The truth of the matters is that as instructors, no matter how we slice it, we enter into a business relationship with our students. From the moment that they handed you (you being general, not you specifically) a dollar you incurred certain obligations toward them. As for the idea that the martial arts are somehow "more" than any other physical hobby, I don't believe that. All of the positive benifits that get touted about the traditional martial arts I experienced in both boxing and football. As a matter of fact I found the coaches in both sports to be much more free of the ego, self absorbed crap, and general negativity than in the TMAs. 

Just my experience, your mileage my differ.

Mark


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## Lynne (Jul 24, 2008)

RevIV said:


> I am not a fan of the black belt club either. It shows a sort of Classism within the dojo. Some people just cannot afford to sign up for the black belt club so they get discouraged by feeling inferior not only economicaly but also Material wise as well. I do not mandate anything besides knowing your material. We run 2 tournaments a year and seminars that we encourage but do not punish if you do not go.


 I understand that some schools do charge for black belt club.  Ours does not.

I'll tell you why I signed up.  It was so I could attend more than twice a week.  Our classes are either 45 minutes long or one hour long, depending on the night/morning one attends.  We do a lot of conditioning work and that takes up a lot of time.  Students are always panicking come spotlight or test time.  They don't know their wrist grips, hand-foot combinations as well as they should.  I want to know my material.  I also want more conditioning than twice a week (I do some on my own, too).  Black belt club members may attend as often as they like.  If not a club member, one signs up for the once a week program or the twice a week program.

We also learn some of the Chil-Sung forms which are black belt forms.  That's not exactly a free ride.  We may be tested on Chil-Sung forms during spotlighting or testing. If we can't perform the Chil-Sung, I imagine we do not pass.  Also, we are expected to do a Chil-Sung form in competition.  The annual school competition is mandatory.  So, more is expected out of black belt club members.

Yes, we do have advantages.  We learn self-defense techniques such as grabs and throws that are not taught below black belt level.  We have had some escrima training (not with the actual sticks but the coordination training with partners). We've also had tumbling - shoulder rolls, cartwheels.  Those come in handy during boardbreaking.  (Not for me, I still can't do them.)

We also get 10% off on merchandise - DVD's, apparel, and books.

The 3 year extension in no way guarantees a black belt at such and such time.  In fact, it's quite common for people to not pass their first black belt test.  We have to test just like everyone else.

I would actually say that black belt club can be a hinderance to training.  We often have black belt club week right before a test.  That means we aren't working on regular belt material.  So, a student must be motivated and better be practicing at home and attending at least twice a week.

I would be cautious about signing up kids for black belt club.  I would not do it.  I know of a situation where parents insisted that the school let them sign their 5 (yes, 5) year old up for black belt club.  The parents kept insisting and our school said ok.  A five-year old cannot possibly comprehend the concepts of martial virtue or what a black belt is.  We know who the foxes were behind this.

I can understand people's concerns, the elitism and all of that.  It was important to me to attend more than twice a week.  What would I do at if I could only attend twice a week at 1st gup?


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## Lynne (Jul 24, 2008)

Now that I've been training for awhile, I know some questions to ask.  I would caution anyone to ask:

1)  Under what conditions may I get out of this contract?

2)  Must I compete?  How often?  WHERE?  (Our school has to travel out-of-state at a certain point.)  How much do competitions cost?  What competition activities must I particpate in and how much does each activity cost, i.e., boardbreaking, forms, sparring, weapons, etc.  How much do boards generally cost? 

3)  When will I need sparring gear?  How much does sparring gear cost?  (Go to EBAY my friend.)

4)  Are students required to teach at some point?  Are students required to volunteer for summer camps, Christmas camps, whatever?

5)  Must I compete in in-house tournaments?  How much do they cost?

6)  How much are testing fees?

7)  What does it cost to belong to the federation, association, etc?  You will have to join if your school belongs to a governing group.

8)  Are there any other fees?

9)  Is my tuition locked in?  Are the registration fees locked in?

10) How much are uniforms?

11) Do I have to buy patches and what do they cost?  Yes and yes.

12) Can I make up classes?

That's all I can think of right now.


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## terryl965 (Jul 24, 2008)

Lynne I am directing this at you just because of this part of your post, *MY CLUB DOES NOT CHARGE FOR A BB CLUB*

First off if you have a seperate club for those wishing to be a BB then that means the rest of the group is kinda left behind and to me all my students are here to obtain at some point and time. Also I gaurentee your Master is making some sort of monetary gain or there would not be a club, maybe a special uniform or because you are in a BB club then you deserve weapons training and you have to buy weapons. Maybe it is a special training only at seminars but like I said he is making something or there is no reason to have one period.

Now Lynne on to some of your other question, must of them are great ones and I applaud them but to me an instructor should tell each perspective students fee's upfront like tournaments, travel, association and equipment. I know I tell all of mine these are some of the fee's and the longer you stay they may get more expensive with the economy. Be prepared for that and remember everything in life has a cost associated with it, one way or another.


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## shihansmurf (Jul 24, 2008)

Two of the schools I've trained at have had Black Belt Clubs. I'm not really a big fan of the concept. I thought that being a black belt was a cool enough thing in and of itself.

How I work the concept, or at least as close as I come to it, is this.  All BBs that I have trained are part of the BBC for free. The only perk is that they get to attend Black Belt level training. I shouldn't say for free, though, because they are expected to help train each other.  I require my black belts to engage in self directed study, seminars, branch out into other systems, research. They are then expected to share their knowledge freely in the BB club. As a side not I don't charge my BBs class dues. I see them as peers once they become members of the Yudansha.

Mark


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## Shicomm (Jul 24, 2008)

With the typical US contract 'craze' i'm happy that it's not that big in europe...


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## MJS (Jul 24, 2008)

shihansmurf said:


> If you are unable to teach for a period of a few weeks do you pro-rate? If you don't teach then should you get paid?


 
If I am in college, and come down with the flu or just don't feel like going to class for 3 days because its 80 degrees with a cool breeze, and perfect beach weather, the college is still taking my money.  They're not giving me a refund because I chose not to go.  Again, I go back to a weeks vacation.  My light bill isn't going to be credited a week because the lights weren't on.  



> Do you utilize junior/assistant instructors? If I signed up t have you teach me and one of your students does all of the instructing do I still have to pay even though I'm not receiving the promised product?


 
Asst. isntructors are usually part of every school.  When I taught on a regular basis, I used them all the time.  However, unless it was a Black Belt, the asst. would usually just work on material that the student(s) already knew.  Teaching of new material came from BB's.  



> If you have noticed that most people want out in the summer and you haven't adjusted your financial planning to compensate for the drop in income is that the students fault?


 
See my above reply.  




> I have had a couple of bad experiences with contracts in the past so if a school has a required contract it immediately ceases to be a place where I'll train.


 
I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that a) either the school didn't fully disclose everything or b) you failed to ask about the contracts.  So, whos fault is this?  I say both.


*



			KARATE STUDENT BILL OF RIGHTS
		
Click to expand...

*


> 1. The Karate instructor agrees that he will be the instructor of all classes, actively teaching and not observing or being assisted by his students or assistants. For each class the instructor does not teach which is taught by a substitute, a $10.00 dispersal shall be made to the customer.
> 
> 
> 2. The instructor agrees that the facilities shall be clean and in working order at all times. The instructor shall provide up-to-date and immaculate toilet facilities along with a sink, charged soap dispenser, and paper towel dispenser and trash can that is emptied nightly. The floor of the bathroom and the dojo itself shall be disinfected daily. Any spills or mess shall be cleaned up immediately upon discovery by the staff of the Karate school and not by the students. All cleaning to be performed by the instructor and his staff - never the students.
> ...


 
I think the person who wrote this list needs to re-examine it, but for the sake of the thread, I'll comment on the questions.


1) I disagree.  If I'm sick, and another qualified BB is teaching, why should I refund any money?

2) I agree/disagree.  I agree that the restroom should be clean, stocked, etc.  However, if someone makes a mess, and is fully capable of cleaning it, they should clean it, not me.  

3) Usually demos are done by a select group, who know what it entails.  They are giving their time, and while I don't agree with cash, they may be 'rewarded' with something for their time.

4) Why does it have to be a Sat. and between those hours?

5) A handboook should be given out for free.  However, don't just put the job of explaining things on the owner.  The student should ask questions and know what is required of them.  If they can't commit, then training isn't for them.  

6) Agree. But again the student should be asking questions as well.

7) Agree, classes should start on time.  And the student should also show up on time as well.  Again, it goes back to taking some responsibility for yourself!  I disagree with giving a refund.  Perhaps, by your way of thinking, if the student is late, the teacher should also charge them $5.

8) If the student is not in the school, I don't believe the teacher should tell them that they can't do certain things.  But, if they are in the school, either before or after a class, and they're fooling around, you can be sure that I will say something.  If someone gets hurt, are you telling me that the parent won't come crying, asking why the teacher didn't say something, when all along, the student should have some respect for the school, and know that when you're in the school, that is NOT the time to fool around!

9) Agree.

10) Depends.  If one student is fooling around, and that behavior causes others to misbehave also, then you can bet I'm holding them responsible.  

11) I can go along with that.

12) Agree.

13) Disagree.

14) Disagree!  Again, where is the responsibility of the student???  Yes, if they're late, they should wait to be acknowledged, and perform the warmups that they missed.



> The above Karate Student Bill of Rights was written by Rob Redmond and is posted to 24fightingchickens.com
> 
> Would any of you instructors that use contracts agree to these terms?


 
Mr. Redmond, IMO, needs to re-evaluate this list.


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## MJS (Jul 24, 2008)

ArmorOfGod said:


> Honestly, I only skimmed the article, but I can't help but immediately think: who signs up their 9-year old for a 4 year program at $140 per month and feels it is wrong when they are held to the contract they signed with their own hand?
> If you sign a contract, you have to pay for the alloted time. Pure and simple.


 
The parent IMO made a mistake, is failing to admit their mistake and is looking for an out.  Its a shame people need to put blame on others, such as the woman in this case, rather than accept her error for not asking the right questions.


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## Lynne (Jul 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Lynne I am directing this at you just because of this part of your post, *MY CLUB DOES NOT CHARGE FOR A BB CLUB*
> 
> First off if you have a seperate club for those wishing to be a BB then that means the rest of the group is kinda left behind and to me all my students are here to obtain at some point and time. Also I gaurentee your Master is making some sort of monetary gain or there would not be a club, maybe a special uniform or because you are in a BB club then you deserve weapons training and you have to buy weapons. Maybe it is a special training only at seminars but like I said he is making something or there is no reason to have one period.
> 
> Now Lynne on to some of your other question, must of them are great ones and I applaud them but to me an instructor should tell each perspective students fee's upfront like tournaments, travel, association and equipment. I know I tell all of mine these are some of the fee's and the longer you stay they may get more expensive with the economy. Be prepared for that and remember everything in life has a cost associated with it, one way or another.


 Thanks for your post, Master Terry.


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## shihansmurf (Jul 24, 2008)

MJS said:


> If I am in college, and come down with the flu or just don't feel like going to class for 3 days because its 80 degrees with a cool breeze, and perfect beach weather, the college is still taking my money.  They're not giving me a refund because I chose not to go.  Again, I go back to a weeks vacation.  My light bill isn't going to be credited a week because the lights weren't on.
> 
> 
> 
> Asst. isntructors are usually part of every school.  When I taught on a regular basis, I used them all the time.  However, unless it was a Black Belt, the asst. would usually just work on material that the student(s) already knew.  Teaching of new material came from BB's. .



If you are in college and elect not to go to class that is your option and the school doesn't owe you any money. That, however, isn't what I asked.
If you as the instructor fail to teach, is the student entitled to a refund? When I was in college and a class would get canceled after I had paid tuition I certainly received one. Likewise, if I go on vacation I don't expect not to pay for my utilities during my absence, yet if service is interrupted I expect my bill pro-rated for the missing time. I simply think that if I have paid for a service and the person responsible fails to provide the service that they have taken my money for, then they owe me that money back. 
I don't hold karate teachers to any different standers than I do anyone else that I transact with.

You Assistant Instructor policy is more acceptable, yet if you advertise that you are the teacher, as a selling point, and then don't actually instruct me. That is a problem. I'm not saying that that is how you do things but it is what I am specifically what I am speaking out against.

My personal experience involved an instructor who refused to cancel my contract when I deployed to Iraq, in spite of things like the military clause that was directly in the contract that I signed. I ended up in court and all of my financial losses were recouped, yet my credit rating still took a hit. I'll never enter into another contractual agreement for martial arts classes again.

I'm only going to reply to one of your responses to Mr Redmonds Bill. I find your response to #13 interesting.

If the school were to close and the student had paid you in advance for the next three months, for example, do you think that the student would be entitled to a refund? If he is paying on a contractual basis, should this be voided? I know instances in which schools closed and neither action was taken. The school just kept the money/ continued to force payments.
I think that the stipulations in article 13 are intentionally exaggerated for effect I think the base idea still holds.

While I don't agree with all of the Bill of Rights, I think the purpose was to demonstrate how one sided these contracts can be. The Articles are extreme to illustrate the absurd level of control and outright fraudulent behavior exhibited my many of these predatory business practices.  I feel the point the author is trying to make is that if the situation were reversed, how many of those "teachers" would sign the thing and enter into that sort of relationship. I could be wrong, just my take on it.

Also, I would like to say I appreciate your responses to this thread. I find it interesting, and mean no disrespect to you in this line of questioning.If you take any offense then please accept my preemptive apology.

Mark


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## RevIV (Jul 24, 2008)

Lynne said:


> I understand that some schools do charge for black belt club. Ours does not.


 
Do you have to sign the 3 year agreement to get into the black belt club?  If this is so,and there is no additional fee for the program,  then that is one great business strategy.  I mean no sarcasm at all there.  As a business owner, that is one thought that has never come up in any of the business meetings i have ever attended.  I still struggle with one year agreements right now but i will store that thought in the file.  A great majority of my students have been with me 5 plus years and if that is to be the norm for the rest of my life (that would be great) then these agreements would help long term students who I have known for years seal in there rates and show banks long-term agreements.


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## RevIV (Jul 25, 2008)

Shicomm said:


> With the typical US contract 'craze' i'm happy that it's not that big in europe...


 
I believe there is a big difference between European and US based schools.  Not on quality but on ability to running the schools in general.    When you say "typical US contract 'craze' " you do not take into consideration the economical and social differences that we are dealing with.  -- I will just leave it at that --


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## RevIV (Jul 25, 2008)

shihansmurf said:


> If you are in college and elect not to go to class that is your option and the school doesn't owe you any money. That, however, isn't what I asked.
> If you as the instructor fail to teach, is the student entitled to a refund? When I was in college and a class would get canceled after I had paid tuition I certainly received one. Likewise, if I go on vacation I don't expect not to pay for my utilities during my absence, yet if service is interrupted I expect my bill pro-rated for the missing time.
> Mark[/quote
> 
> ...


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## RevIV (Jul 25, 2008)

shihansmurf said:


> My personal experience involved an instructor who refused to cancel my contract when I deployed to Iraq, in spite of things like the military clause that was directly in the contract that I signed. I ended up in court and all of my financial losses were recouped, yet my credit rating still took a hit. I'll never enter into another contractual agreement for martial arts classes again.
> 
> I'm only going to reply to one of your responses to Mr Redmonds Bill. I find your response to #13 interesting.
> 
> ...


 Thats all just wrong and makes me sick that martial arts schools would do that.  First, thank you for serving.  I have had many students go into the service and off to Irag, I could never imagine someone forcing you to pay while you were off making sure they had the right to even run a dojo.  See, again, agreements for some are a safety net for further endeavors, not as a way to get every dime no matter what.
as for school that goes out of business good luck trying to get that back.  Ethically and contractually i would think the people should get their money back,  reality, good luck.


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## still learning (Jul 25, 2008)

Hello, Contracts can be written any way and be accepted by anyone....Let the buyers beware....

Most Sensi/owners know...there will always be students who sign-up and after a few weeks..months or a year....they do not want to go anymore...and for those parents who sign up for long terms?  .....Can get struck with another monthly bills!

It take two sides to break a contract....Owners should know better? ..that a loss of a student (s) happen ALL THE TIME!   

Owner/Teachers.....KNOW this well...students quiting is a high percentage!!!   Therefore should be more willing to helping out the parents and end the contracts fairly...who knows maybe they will come back?

Remember they are NOT buying property or a car or furunitures.....just lessons......

Any schools who forces payment after a student loses interest?  ....who fault?   ......

Yes! Schools may have big bills to pay for rent,untilties,insurance and so on......AT the same time the nature of the business will always have LOSS of students and is expected or should be expected....

Those martial art schools that force payments for students who quit is GIVING EVERYONE ELSE A BAD NAME!!!!

Aloha ......Instructors/OWNERS'S should be more GROWN UP ON THIS!


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## MBuzzy (Jul 25, 2008)

The one argument that I don't see as being valid here is the comparison of Martial Arts contracts to a number of other services and assets.  

I've heard a lot of (not just here, from many people) "Do you still pay for your car if you don't drive it?" "Do you still pay for your house if you go on vacation?" "Do you still pay for electricity if you aren't there/don't use it?" "Do you still pay for a gym membership when you don't use it?"  And I really just can't see the connection.

Let's look at the asset based comparisons first.  Your house, your Car, your ______, you HAVE in your possession.  You are paying for the right to retain the property.  If you don't drive your car doesn't matter - you still have it.  You could still sell it, you can still store things in it, etc.  You are in physical control of the asset.  The same with your house, the "owner" of the house does not have rights of occupancy on the property.  When you get a loan such as this, the bank owns the asset and you are paying them monthly for the right to use it until you do own it.  The alternative is, of course, saving for 5 years BEFORE buying it and paying cash.  It is just a long term payment instead of a single payment.

Ok, let's look at pro-rated services such as electricity.  You don't pay for electricity that you don't use....that is what meters are for.  You pay PER KILOWAT HOUR.  If you only use 100, you only pay for 100.  The thing that most people don't see is just how much electricity your house sucks up when you don't have anything on.

Ok, no services such as gym memberships.  In this case, you are paying for unrestricted access.  You can go there at any time, as long as they are open.  You are also usually paying for services such as classes, personal trainers, etc.  In this case, your monthly or yearly fee goes toward overhead, paying their EXTENSIVE staff, including cleaning.  A place such as this can't afford to allow customers pay per visit, because of the unlimited access...basically you can go in there and stay for 18 hours if you want.  Of course, they could pay by hour, but then it comes down to a business decision.  Plus, it is much better for the customer.  To support operations, if you paid by hour or by visit....no one could afford it.

In the case of a martial arts studio.  You are paying for a class, for the instructor's time, and for the service that he provides you.  He provides the space (just like a music lesson) and the knowledge.  Yes, to maintain operations, an instructor must charge accordingly to support the space (i.e. rent, overhead, etc).  But in this case, you are paying a person directly to provide a teaching service.  You get no asset (except knowledge, which cannot be measured), you get no unlimited access, you are limited to the instructor's schedule, etc.

That is all.  I see purposes for having and not having contracts.  The biggest problem that I have is when there is no or a difficult escape clause.  But the comparisons that I've listed are used a lot to support arguments and I really just can't see the connection.


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## bowser666 (Jul 25, 2008)

Contracts in my opinion are a waste and unfair to the student. I do believe the best thing si month to month, or to offer a discount if a student wishes to pay for no more than 3 months in advance to get a cheaper rate. Extended contracts are crap though, because life happens and sometimes the contracts cant be fulfilled and have to be broken etc...   I unfortunately studied under a USSD school in Massachusetts that was all about contracts and many people were conned.  Sad story...............


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jul 25, 2008)

Contracts are used in most legitimate businesses - banking, cell phones, television, health clubs - you sign up for a 1 or 2 year deal.

Why should martial arts be any different? After all, we constantly tell people it is a life long journey. How does a month to month deal support a life long goal?


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## Kwan Jang (Jul 25, 2008)

Honestly, I don't want to waste my time on the students who are not committed enough to be there. I do allow up to a free month of training before they choose either to commit or not. If they do commit to it though, I will keep up my end and I expect them to keep theirs.  I use contracts because they spell out the obligations for both sides. Frankly, I have far more people who sign them with no intention of ever paying than those who I enforce it against their will. Also, I don't want them to drop out and keep collecting their money, I want them to keep the mutual commitment we made to each other in the first place. 

BTW, by law in the USA an owner must cancel the contract if their is a documented, legitimate medical reason or if the student moves out of range of the school. I am also open and reasonable about legitimate reasons that someone may be unable to train. But to me "Johhny's lost interest" is not one. Kids never quit anything; parents LET them quit. We are supposd to be teaching character skills like discipline. Without commitment there can be no discipline. IMO, the instructors who don't do this are really doing a dis-service to their students and are the ones who are really copping out because they'sd rather not be bothered with it and don't care enough about the students in the first place. (gets out asbestos for the flaming that is sure to come).


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## shihansmurf (Jul 25, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> That is all.  I see purposes for having and not having contracts.  The biggest problem that I have is when there is no or a difficult escape clause.  But the comparisons that I've listed are used a lot to support arguments and I really just can't see the connection.



I think that most of the problem is that a few of us seem to be debating different points.

I'll clarify my position.

1. If a student, that has signed a contract, elects due to no extenuating circumstance, to not attend class then that student is fully liable for payment.

2. If the teacher doesn't provide the service that were promised to the student, in the manner that they were provided, then the instructor is at fault and owes the student a refund.

3. The field of martial arts instruction, irrespective of what other baggage we wish to attach to it, is a business just as any other field of instruction for pay. This means, for better or worse, that the student is the consumer and the teacher is the seller of his services. An instructor that fails to maintain his end of the buyer/seller relationship is at fault.

4. On the subject of Assistant Instructors, I am personally ambivilant. If, however, that status of the instructor is used as the selling point to get me to purchase his product(i.e. instructional time from him) and I am instead being taught by someone else then the seller is at fault. For example, if I sign up for lessons in BJJ from Royce Gracie i expect to get taught by Royce Gracie, especially if the advert pushes this as a selling point. If I get there and I am not being taught by Royce Gracie and instead being taught by Billy Joe the Brown Belt who is being used as unpaid labor so that he can earn teaching time, will there will be issues. This is bait and switch. Oh, and being told that I have to "earn" the privilege of training with Royce Gracie, after I have paid to do so is equally crap. The privilege was earned when they accepted my cash.

Note please that I have never had an experience with the Gracies. I just picked his name for the recongnition factor.

As far as the comparisons go, they are all just being used to illustrate the point that if you have paid for a good/service and the seller doesn't provide that service then they are in default. It isn't the specifics at debate, although you have raised some interesting points and I'll have to give them some thought, more so the underlying principle.

Your statement of "The biggest problem that I have is when there is no or a difficult escape clause" is absolutely correct. I agree 100%. Most of these contracts are absurdly one sided with no enforcement clauses for the student to ensure that they receive the product that they are paying for. This is  a problem.

That being said, once a student signs a contract I believe tha they should be held to it. Caveat Emptor. I just won't sign one ever again, and I do my best to prevent other from haveing a similar experience to mine.

Mark


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## pete (Jul 25, 2008)

*We've been operating a pretty successful studio since Jan '06.  We teach Tai Chi Chuan (and some Bagua), Yoga, and have a kids program in American Kenpo.  All classes are paid on a per-class basis (no monthly fees, much less contracts).  My wife and I teach ALL classes, and we do not charge any membership fees, belt testing fees, and provide kenpo students with their first uniform and patches (as they earn them) at no cost... however, they do buy replacements as they outgrow or otherwise need replacement.*

*I'll try and answer the Bill of Rights as they apply to us:*

*



			KARATE STUDENT BILL OF RIGHTS
		
Click to expand...

*


> 1. The Karate instructor agrees that he will be the instructor of all classes, actively teaching and not observing or being assisted by his students or assistants. For each class the instructor does not teach which is taught by a substitute, a $10.00 dispersal shall be made to the customer


.
the studio owners teach all classes. if for some reason we were not to teach a class, the student would have the option to either take the class or not.  our students only pay for classes they take. 



> 2. The instructor agrees that the facilities shall be clean and in working order at all times. The instructor shall provide up-to-date and immaculate toilet facilities along with a sink, charged soap dispenser, and paper towel dispenser and trash can that is emptied nightly. The floor of the bathroom and the dojo itself shall be disinfected daily. Any spills or mess shall be cleaned up immediately upon discovery by the staff of the Karate school and not by the students. All cleaning to be performed by the instructor and his staff - never the students.


 yes this is how we operate.  we do not have students do our work as studio owners. students take classes, and then get on with their lives.



> 3. The instructor agrees that the student need not participate in any demonstrations or other marketing/advertising events on behalf of the school in order to be selected for tournament participation or rank promotion. The instructor shall compensate students for their participation in such events in cash at the rate of $25.00 per hour should they volunteer to participate.


 we do not use our students as props for advertising.  we do rely on word of mouth, and we do not offer any monetary or promotional gifts for bringing in new students.  if an existing student brings in a friend, or otherwise promotes our school, they will likely receive a thank you. 



> 4. Rank examinations shall only be held between the hours of 9am and 5pm on Saturdays at least six times per year. No training session longer than one hour shall be held immediately before or during the rank examination. Automatic promotion shall be the result for each examination instance less than six held during the year.


 this is a little strange. we do not even offer classes on Saturdays, so why would we schedule rank exams then? we offer rank exams, as appropriate, during class time. when a student is ready, they are given a few weeks notice to prepare as candidates, and will be tested if ready.  there is no automatic promotion, but that said, due to our 'process' we have not had occassion to fail anyone... yet.




> 5. The club by-laws shall be provided in writing and free of charge to the student within 14 days of attaining membership. Should the student find the by-laws in any way objectionable, all agreements are immediately revoked and all fees must be immediately refunded.


 we don't have any by-laws, rules or guidelines. we also don't have any membership agreements or fees to be refunded.




> 6. The school must disclose any and all fees and charges for all services and products offered by the school in writing immediately before any membership agreement can be considered active or any fees coming due. This includes disclosure of rank test fees, certification fees, monthly tuition, uniform prices, and any other required or conditional charges or fees. Fee and price amounts must remain fixed in place for the student until December 31 of the current year.


 sure, we disclose our class rates, and also disclose that there are no membership fees, no rank test fees, no charge for first uniform, etc. there are no required purchases, even if a kid rips or 'forgets' his uniform, he may take the class in 'civvies'. no problem.



> 7. All classes shall begin on time. On-time shall be defined as within 120 seconds of the exact hour that they are previously scheduled to begin. Classes that begin late shall result in a $5.00 refund for that class to the student if present


. well, i don't think my wall clock has a second hand, so not sure about this one... but there are no 'refunds'.  if the student thinks he is getting cheated out of time, he doesn't have to take the class. a student is only charged for classes he attends.




> 8. The instructor shall not at any time attempt to restrict or control the behavior of the student outside of his classroom environment before or after the published schedule for start and end times of classes. This includes attempts to enforce Japanese etiquette, use of titles or special address, symbols, secret handshakes, slogans, sounds, chants, cheers, or any other behaviors. This shall also include attempting to restrict or discourage the student from participating in any other activity, including the martial arts activity of a competing business or non-profit organization that teaches the same subject.


 that's cool too.  many of my adult students take tai chi with me, while enrolled in other martial arts programs elsewhere.  we use english in all of our classes, if we reference a chinese word, english explanation is always given. we use no titles and are addressed on a first name basis by all students, even the youngest kids. i encourage my youngest students to take part in other activities in addition to (and sometimes at the expense of) my classes... such as music, art, sports, dance, etc.  and will award patches (at my expense) based on school work or extra-curriculars.



> 9. The student shall be allowed to hold membership in as many organizations and schools as the student shall choose, and the instructor shall take no action nor attempt to discourage this behavior.


yep, that is up to the individual, not me



> 10. The instructor shall not hold the student accountable for the other students behavior or performance. The instructor shall not ask the student to teach classes nor to tutor other students at any time. The instructor shall perform all teaching himself, and the student shall not be asked to be tutored by nor tutor any other student in the class nor provide leadership to other students in the class.


 well, not sure what the point is here, but no students are responsible for teaching... but there is a lot to learn through supervised cooperative learning. 



> 11. The instructor shall not require membership in an overseer organization or governing body. The student shall join only if the student chooses. No conditions may be placed on the student, either coercion or limitations, if the student chooses not to join any governing bodies or organizations


 students are not required to join anything, just take classes.



> 12. The instructor shall not lead class while practicing himself. He shall practice during other hours outside of the class, and the student shall be given full attention of the instructor during class hours.


good point. as an instructor, your responsibility is to the students.



> 13. The instructor will provide instruction for the duration of this agreement. Should the Karate school close, the instructor will provide private lessons to the student in their home for the remainder of the agreement or refund to the student double the fees that were paid to the instructor for the original agreement amount


. no problem.  student pays for class. if we were to go out of business or close down, we are square with all of our students.




> 14. The student shall never be punished, humiliated, or singled out by the instructor when late for class. The student shall be allowed to quietly join the class without having to perform a ceremony or wait for acknowledgment on the side of the training area


 cool.  i always tell my students, i don't care if you are late, you still pay the same for the class and i get to do less work!. 

*so where's the problem?*

*Pete*


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## bowser666 (Jul 25, 2008)

I just do not understand the big fear of letting students pay month to month. By implementing contracts it simply shows that the "business"  , notice I did not say dojo/dojang , is motivated to keep your money. Priorities are backwards in my opinion. Yes i understand nothing in life is free but if the quality instruction is their and you are confident in your school, then students will keep coming back. Not for fear of a contract. Just my $.02


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## shihansmurf (Jul 25, 2008)

Pete, 
The way you run you class sounds like a great placet o train.

Thanks for the well thought out reply.

Mark


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## shinbushi (Jul 25, 2008)

bowser666 said:


> Yes i understand nothing in life is free but if the quality instruction is their and you are confident in your school, then students will keep coming back. Not for fear of a contract. Just my $.02


You obviously have never run a commercial school.  Quality instruction is only a small part of what makes a successful school.  If quality instruction is all it took, the best instructors would have to turn away business.  This is far from the case.


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## MJS (Jul 25, 2008)

shihansmurf said:


> If you are in college and elect not to go to class that is your option and the school doesn't owe you any money. That, however, isn't what I asked.
> If you as the instructor fail to teach, is the student entitled to a refund? When I was in college and a class would get canceled after I had paid tuition I certainly received one.


 
If a substitute comes in to teach the class, a service is still being provided.  People need to accept and understand that things may come up, ie: being sick, death in the family, etc.  All things that can't be avoided.  If I was scheduled to teach a class, but got sick, and had another BB step in to replace me, again, the service is still being provided, so no refund should be given.  




> Likewise, if I go on vacation I don't expect not to pay for my utilities during my absence, yet if service is interrupted I expect my bill pro-rated for the missing time. I simply think that if I have paid for a service and the person responsible fails to provide the service that they have taken my money for, then they owe me that money back.
> I don't hold karate teachers to any different standers than I do anyone else that I transact with.


 
So you're telling me that during a storm, when the power gets knocked out for 2 hrs. the utility co. should give 2 hrs of credit?  Good luck with that one.  



> You Assistant Instructor policy is more acceptable, yet if you advertise that you are the teacher, as a selling point, and then don't actually instruct me. That is a problem. I'm not saying that that is how you do things but it is what I am specifically what I am speaking out against.


 
Agreed.  The owner/head inst., etc should be on the floor but again, with the exceptions that I mention above.




> I'm only going to reply to one of your responses to Mr Redmonds Bill. I find your response to #13 interesting.


 
Please explain to me how this would even be possible.  Lets say that he school has 150 students.  How could someone who works a 40hr a week job, possibly fit 150 lessons in?  



> If the school were to close and the student had paid you in advance for the next three months, for example, do you think that the student would be entitled to a refund? If he is paying on a contractual basis, should this be voided? I know instances in which schools closed and neither action was taken. The school just kept the money/ continued to force payments.
> I think that the stipulations in article 13 are intentionally exaggerated for effect I think the base idea still holds.


 
In the ideal world, yes, the un-used portion should be returned.  In the real world...sadly, I doubt that happens much.




> Also, I would like to say I appreciate your responses to this thread. I find it interesting, and mean no disrespect to you in this line of questioning.If you take any offense then please accept my preemptive apology.
> 
> Mark


 
Likewise, I have enjoyed this discussion with you as well.  

Mike


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## shihansmurf (Jul 25, 2008)

MJS said:


> If a substitute comes in to teach the class, a service is still being provided.  People need to accept and understand that things may come up, ie: being sick, death in the family, etc.  All things that can't be avoided.  If I was scheduled to teach a class, but got sick, and had another BB step in to replace me, again, the service is still being provided, so no refund should be given.



I'll clarify. The occasional instance of this is fine. Life happens, people get sick, etc. What I mean is more like the following...I signed up for a class here in the current area that I am stationed in. The class was through a local civic center. The instructor had a great resume, many years as an instructor, strong lineage, all the selling points. She didn't actually teach the class. A couple of her students did all the teaching, while she sat in a chair on the side of the mat and watched. There were random cancellations of the class, sometimes 3-4 session out of the 8 per month that I paid for.  Al of this is well beyond the occasional I gotta miss class because I'm sick or pet hamster died level. 

As you said people need to accept that things come up, but there are defininte limits. 



> So you're telling me that during a storm, when the power gets knocked out for 2 hrs. the utility co. should give 2 hrs of credit? Good luck with that one.



Thus far I've never had a problem when I've elected to force the issue, but I do have a strong personality and don't accept defeat easily. Kinda helps me in my profession as a soldier. A few days ago my internet connection was out for about 12 hours. Over the course of a two hour phone session I made the provider credit me my whopping 74 cents. I know the anount is trivial but i honestly believe that the reason that so many companies are able to ignore valid customer complaints is because too often we allow them to. Seperate issue, I guess,  but I'm willing to fight with a company over a triviality if I am right. I pay up if I'm wrong, though. Ultimatly this discussion is all about personal responsibility and I just don't happen to think it is a one way street with the instructor getting a free pass at ignoring his obligations whilst the student is held to task.



> Please explain to me how this would even be possible. Lets say that he school has 150 students. How could someone who works a 40hr a week job, possibly fit 150 lessons in?



No, I agree that you're right on the particulars but I think that the idea of Mr. Redmond's Bill of Rights was to exaggerate for effect. The idea being that if the teacher has the option to end the teacher/student relationship due to reasons other than the ones delineated as escape clauses in the contract without negative effects then the student should also have that same ability. Anything else is unacceptable. The balance of power, so to speak, should be even. As it is, it is interestingly skewed in favor of the seller. Not to many other industries have such an imbalance.

Mark

P.S. Woo Hoo, I just made orange belt as a poster!!!


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## still learning (Jul 26, 2008)

Hello,  Contracts?  ...so many different ways to set one up...the whole idea is to commit a student for the long term.

Everyone knows....students do feel after a while it is NOT for them...therefore will quit...(no matter the age).  SCHOOLS know this well and should be fair! about letting them quit.

Many college only charge by the semster and students know it they quit...they will lose their money (an accepted practice) and is in writing too.

Any School that forces payment?  .....UM?   What is fair?    

Remember when you quit too...and came back?  ....

Keeping students from quiting? ....whose fault?

Aloha


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## pete (Jul 26, 2008)

come on lets all be straight here.  
you can take one of 2 philosophical approaches to running your studio:

1. you invest in the sale and then need a way to cover acquistion costs, or
2. you keep acquisition costs low and retain students through customer loyalty.

in #1, it is expensive in time and dollars to place ads, create signage, hold promotional give-aways, and invest your time in free introductory bla-bla-blas.  if you get 5-10% you are doing great, which means you are losing 90-95% of everyone you target! so you can't afford now to 'lose' those that have shown interest. you've made a serious financial commitment to acquisition, now you expect quid pro quo from the customer. unfortunately, this can further deplete your small %.

in #2, you build slowly, rely on word of mouth and other no-cost means of letting people know you exist. you don't give away anything, no free intros, no observation, etc.  if a potential student shows up, they can pay for a class and decide whether to come back.  its up to YOU as the teacher to connect with the student to give them something they WANT TO come back for. And that continues, every class, every week, with every student.  Personally, I do not want a student coming back unless he really wants to be there and is getting something out of it.  So in this case, there are no acquisition costs, in fact you get a few bucks for that first class.  If the person (or parent) gives flack over the $10 or so for their first class, forget them... they are either not serious, or cheap, and either way more trouble then they are worth.

in choosing #2, we've had incredible retention, like 80-90% since Jan 2006. 

once you are going, the only thing a contract will do for you is allow you to obtain credit.  a bank will see this as a guaranteed income stream against which you can borrow capital.  if that is not a concern, then why bother...

pete


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## stickarts (Jul 26, 2008)

shinbushi said:


> You obviously have never run a commercial school. Quality instruction is only a small part of what makes a successful school. If quality instruction is all it took, the best instructors would have to turn away business. This is far from the case.


 
I agree. I have seen more schools close because of poor business practice than poor instruction. Most students have no idea what truely goes into running a successful school. There is a tremendous amount of work, planning, and sacrifice that goes on behind the scenes. Most never step up to the plate to try running their own school and a large percentage of those that do try, aren't able to remain open past 3 years. If you (students) currently train at a good school, thank your instructors (or owners)! its not easy!


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## Laurentkd (Jul 26, 2008)

pete said:


> come on lets all be straight here.
> you can take one of 2 philosophical approaches to running your studio:
> 
> 1. you invest in the sale and then need a way to cover acquistion costs, or
> ...


 

I have a question sir.  Where do you teach? I am curious if you have a commercial property you pay rent to teach out of, or if you have another situation.  If you do have a commercial space, how did you pay the bills while building slowly? I think your proposed method is a great one if you can manage to keep the doors open long enough to grow your strong student base. :asian:

I think there is nothing wrong with contracts WHEN USED CORRECTLY.  If I have to sign a 5 year lease to rent a space to teach out of why should I not expect my students to do the same (on a shorter term level of course).  How can I guarantee my students a place to train with heat, a/c and lights without knowing that I can pay for these necessities every month.
Again, I would love to hear how you managed it.


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## pete (Jul 26, 2008)

Laurentkd said:
			
		

> I have a question sir. Where do you teach? I am curious if you have a commercial property you pay rent to teach out of, or if you have another situation.


hi laurentkd, first off no need for formalities or 'sir'... everybody just calls me pete. where do i teach? probably one of the most expensive areas in the country vis a vis rent and expenses: Long Island NY, specifically North Shore of LI~. and Yes, i do pay monthly rent for commercial space.



			
				Laurentkd said:
			
		

> If you do have a commercial space, how did you pay the bills while building slowly? I think your proposed method is a great one if you can manage to keep the doors open long enough to grow your strong student base. :asian:


we didn't start renting space until we already had a student base. we taught at town programs, libraries, parks, in other people's studios, and even in our home building loyalty. by the time we opened, we had student base to cover most of our expenses.



			
				Laurentkd said:
			
		

> I think there is nothing wrong with contracts WHEN USED CORRECTLY. If I have to sign a 5 year lease to rent a space to teach out of why should I not expect my students to do the same (on a shorter term level of course). How can I guarantee my students a place to train with heat, a/c and lights without knowing that I can pay for these necessities every month.


so, as i do not ask my students for a guarantee or hold any financial leverage that they will continue to train, i can not and do not guarantee that i will remain open.  but as far as i can see, neither do those with contracts, etc.



			
				Laurentkd said:
			
		

> Again, I would love to hear how you managed it.


 so i think i was able to answer your questions pretty directly. i also answered the original posters 'bill of rights' question about 9 or 10 posts north of here.  we have other info, pictures, schedule and prices all on our web page www.silkwindstudio.com 

all in all, this is what works for us.  i am not that arrogant to say this is the only way, and yes, there are certain situations that would require different tactics.  i just want to make it clear that contracts are not necessary for an ongoing commercial studio in all cases.  

pete.


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## Lynne (Jul 27, 2008)

RevIV said:


> Do you have to sign the 3 year agreement to get into the black belt club? If this is so,and there is no additional fee for the program, then that is one great business strategy. I mean no sarcasm at all there. As a business owner, that is one thought that has never come up in any of the business meetings i have ever attended. I still struggle with one year agreements right now but i will store that thought in the file. A great majority of my students have been with me 5 plus years and if that is to be the norm for the rest of my life (that would be great) then these agreements would help long term students who I have known for years seal in there rates and show banks long-term agreements.


 Yes, you have to sign a 3-year contract to get into the black belt club (BBC).  No, there is no fee.  You are also given a school black belt club patch.  (You'd only buy one if you needed a second one for a second school uniform.)  BBC members receive 10% off of merchandise which includes uniforms, sparring gear, weapons, books, DVD's, t-shirts, duffle bags, warm-up suits, fleece wear so and so on.  Tuition and registration fees are locked in.  There is a stipulation that the registration fees be paid in 18 months however.


School-sponsored seminars such as boardbreaking, Bo, and Olympic sparring are open to the entire school and the only costs are for weapons/boards.

Chil-Sung forms, grappling, tumbling, etc., are taught once a month and during regular class time.

I had planned on getting my black belt anyway, so I joined (yes, I wanted to be able to attend more than twice a week, too).  Most adults probably know what they want to do after 6 months or so.  I was approached while still a white belt but declined.  The whole contract thing unsettled me at first.

We have a load of kids in the BBC.  I have no idea if that works out well or not. 

Most adults are in the BBC (after they reach orange belt).

We look at BBC as a commitment to get out black belt.  One certainly doesn't have to join BBC to get their black belt however.

I like the fact that my tuition is locked in.  I already receive 50% off because I'm the second family member having enrolled in the school.


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## stickarts (Jul 27, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Yes, you have to sign a 3-year contract to get into the black belt club (BBC). No, there is no fee. You are also given a school black belt club patch. (You'd only buy one if you needed a second one for a second school uniform.) BBC members receive 10% off of merchandise which includes uniforms, sparring gear, weapons, books, DVD's, t-shirts, duffle bags, warm-up suits, fleece wear so and so on. Tuition and registration fees are locked in. There is a stipulation that the registration fees be paid in 18 months however.
> 
> 
> School-sponsored seminars such as boardbreaking, Bo, and Olympic sparring are open to the entire school and the only costs are for weapons/boards.
> ...


 
I started a BBC last year. It runs along roughly the same lines as you describe. It has worked out well for us. The students that plan to be with us long term make a bit more of a committment but also get more benefits such as extra training and discounts.


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## Laurentkd (Jul 27, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Yes, you have to sign a 3-year contract to get into the black belt club (BBC). No, there is no fee. You are also given a school black belt club patch. (You'd only buy one if you needed a second one for a second school uniform.) BBC members receive 10% off of merchandise which includes uniforms, sparring gear, weapons, books, DVD's, t-shirts, duffle bags, warm-up suits, fleece wear so and so on. Tuition and registration fees are locked in. There is a stipulation that the registration fees be paid in 18 months however.
> 
> 
> School-sponsored seminars such as boardbreaking, Bo, and Olympic sparring are open to the entire school and the only costs are for weapons/boards.
> ...


 


stickarts said:


> I started a BBC last year. It runs along roughly the same lines as you describe. It has worked out well for us. The students that plan to be with us long term make a bit more of a committment but also get more benefits such as extra training and discounts.


 

same here


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## MJS (Jul 27, 2008)

shihansmurf said:


> I'll clarify. The occasional instance of this is fine. Life happens, people get sick, etc. What I mean is more like the following...I signed up for a class here in the current area that I am stationed in. The class was through a local civic center. The instructor had a great resume, many years as an instructor, strong lineage, all the selling points. She didn't actually teach the class. A couple of her students did all the teaching, while she sat in a chair on the side of the mat and watched. There were random cancellations of the class, sometimes 3-4 session out of the 8 per month that I paid for. Al of this is well beyond the occasional I gotta miss class because I'm sick or pet hamster died level.


 
Ok, well, in that case, I'd say that if the head inst. is not doing anything but hiding in the office or letting others do all the work, then yes, I agree that is very wrong.  Sure, there are some classes that the head inst. doesn't teach.  In other words, when I was teaching, I had set classes that were 'mine' so to speak.  However, the head inst should still make an appearance.  




> Thus far I've never had a problem when I've elected to force the issue, but I do have a strong personality and don't accept defeat easily. Kinda helps me in my profession as a soldier. A few days ago my internet connection was out for about 12 hours. Over the course of a two hour phone session I made the provider credit me my whopping 74 cents. I know the anount is trivial but i honestly believe that the reason that so many companies are able to ignore valid customer complaints is because too often we allow them to. Seperate issue, I guess, but I'm willing to fight with a company over a triviality if I am right. I pay up if I'm wrong, though. Ultimatly this discussion is all about personal responsibility and I just don't happen to think it is a one way street with the instructor getting a free pass at ignoring his obligations whilst the student is held to task.


 
I've complained about missing or incorrect items in take out food.  Some times I've just received the correct item, and other times in addition to that, I've received something else, ie: a free dessert, gift card, etc.  I was having serious internet issues a while back, which thankfully were resolved, however, as tempting as it was to ask them for some sort of compensation, I figured that it wouldn't be worth it.  As you mentioned above with the .74, I wasn't expecting much if anything, so I said nothing.


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## bowser666 (Jul 27, 2008)

shinbushi said:


> You obviously have never run a commercial school.  Quality instruction is only a small part of what makes a successful school.  If quality instruction is all it took, the best instructors would have to turn away business.  This is far from the case.



I notice how you said "commercial"  haha ,  this si a school of Martial Arts training not a Subway franchise.  Let's just be real here, alot of people open schools simply to make money. I actually was a co-owner of a small private school , apart from greedy franchises, or "Commercail Chains" and did it as a hobby. Not a way of life.  The peopel that always seem to be all for contracts are the ones who depend upno their bread and butter to come from the school.  Thus the need for contracts.....................  

Perfect example is my school that I go to.  My Sifu is a full time police officer yet he runs the school as a secondary option.  Also as part of his commitment to spread teachings. If it a great quality school, with great instructors, and I have no problem paying for my classes. The biggest thing is he has NO CONTRACTS!!! He knows that people that really want to learn will keep coming back , and those are the kind of students he wants. When you say CONTRACTS you are expressing that you only give a **** about the person's money and could care less about the person so don't give me that.  We all really know what contracts are about.


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## Grenadier (Jul 28, 2008)

bowser666 said:


> Yes i understand nothing in life is free but if the quality instruction is their and you are confident in your school, then students will keep coming back. Not for fear of a contract. Just my $.02


 
The problem is, that once in a while, your students will go through a "down" time, when they may take time off.  Summertime can do this to many schools, where kids go away for more than a month, go to summer school away from the city, get jobs, etc.  

Sometimes, when people go through this down time, they don't come back.  Yes, even your good students, who appreciate good instruction, can sometimes go through this type of a rut.  

Having a contract in place gives them more incentive to come back and keep on training.  Usually, if they start training again, they get back into the flow of things quite nicely, instead of fading away.


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## terryl965 (Jul 28, 2008)

Grenadier said:


> The problem is, that once in a while, your students will go through a "down" time, when they may take time off. Summertime can do this to many schools, where kids go away for more than a month, go to summer school away from the city, get jobs, etc.
> 
> Sometimes, when people go through this down time, they don't come back. Yes, even your good students, who appreciate good instruction, can sometimes go through this type of a rut.
> 
> Having a contract in place gives them more incentive to come back and keep on training. Usually, if they start training again, they get back into the flow of things quite nicely, instead of fading away.


 

While you are correct, I still do not believe in them and will not use them. I need only the word of a student that when they need a month off they will be back and if I do not hear from them it is so simple to drop a postcard as a friendly reminder anout there training. I fthey still do not come back then I did not need them to be here. They have found a new path and mine may or may not be a part of it. It sucks sometimes not knowing if you have enough to pay rent or not but those are the chances I am eilling to take.


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## bowser666 (Jul 28, 2008)

Grenadier said:


> The problem is, that once in a while, your students will go through a "down" time, when they may take time off.  Summertime can do this to many schools, where kids go away for more than a month, go to summer school away from the city, get jobs, etc.
> 
> Sometimes, when people go through this down time, they don't come back.  Yes, even your good students, who appreciate good instruction, can sometimes go through this type of a rut.
> 
> Having a contract in place gives them more incentive to come back and keep on training.  Usually, if they start training again, they get back into the flow of things quite nicely, instead of fading away.



Still not a viable excuse for a contract. It is simple as making a reminder to call the student in a month to personally check for a update to see if they will be returning back to school. It just shows again that contract is simply their to protect the business owner's revenue flow.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 28, 2008)

I have two problems with the article and its author.  The whole 'its the instructors fault if the student fails a test' remark shows a huge lack of understanding.  This has already been gone over by others, so I won't belabor the point.

Secondly, Mr. Shirley's letting the lady out of her contract wasn't enough for him.  He wants everyone to be told up front how to break a contract for reasons not stated in the contract that they've presumably read before signing.  Very unreasonable, in my opinion.

Someone earlier stated that we've done this to ourselves when we agreed to teach kids.  Fair enough, but so too have consumers done this to themselves.  People come in, sign up for class, and the school teaches them in good faith.  Then they just stop showing up because the summer months have come.  Or whatever.  School owners have a right to protect their business.  If they offer shorter contracts than four years, then parents of young kids should opt for them.  Or find a noncontractual school.  It amazes me how little research people do into a martial arts school, but it hardly surprises me when the ignorant whine about it.

I signed myself kids up for two years.  Both wanted to do martial arts and both were told, by me, that they must do the two years if I signed on the dotted line.  When the first two years were up, one took a break and the other continued.  I signed up for five years for myself.  As I teach kumdo at the school as well as train in taekwondo and hapkido, my son was not charged for lessons after his contract was up and my other son has since returned.  

I was careful about it; my kids are kids.  They don't always stick with things.  There are tons of expensive toys and video games that they just had to have and which now sit and collect dust or have been donated.  And I have never met a parent who cannot say the same.  Use of one's brain should not be suspended when walking into a martial arts school.  People research things to death.  Cars, for example, which few people really know much about, are researched to the point that everyone knows not to pay list and to ask about the invoice and rebates.  Consumers spend hours haggling with salesmen at various dealerships over the cost of a machine who's interal workings may as well be magic to them, and then when they make their purchase, they leave with a gleam in their eye because they really stuck it to the salesman.  They pride themselves on being a shrewd consumer.  Then they sign a five year contract for their four year old at the local karate school and can't figure out why its a problem six months later when the kid does what most kids do: find a new passion that they just _have_ to do.

Then they go and whine to people like this consumer watchdog to do their thinking for them after the fact.  Such watchdogs never acknowledge that these people were foolish and the school owner is always the bad guy.  And thus the cycle of stupidity continues.

Daniel


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## Traditionalist (Aug 14, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I've got problems with lots of that. Beginning with the mercantile approach (after all, I'm VERY non-profit!). You pay dues to cover rent of the facility, purchase of needed equipment, and occasionally I even get some gas money. I don't charge more for additional training sessions; I don't charge less for fewer.
> 
> Our school is run the same way. We go month to month and the student's dues goes strictly to pay rent, and utilities and anything else to keep the school running. I find that most schools I know that have contracts are schools where the instructors are trying to make a living at teaching martial arts. All of our instructors have full time jobs so they aren't dependent on the school for anything. In this way I think it makes us more of a family instead of a "business". The kids I instruct our more like my little brothers and sisters and sometime I have to be hard on them and other times I can hold their hand and lead them where they need to go. I don't have to answer to parents and I'm never threatened with "do this or you'll lose our business". Parent and student knows up front what they are getting into and if they want to quit then I always tell them they are more then welcome to try again. Kids under ten can hardly dress themselves you can't expect them to know they they'll like martial arts for a year before they even get into it. I personally think contracts are just an insurance to the instructor so he can make a living at MA. And I don't believe in pre-test, you don't test a student to see if they are ready to test. That is what class is for, and you should test a student when you know they will pass. I tell my students when they are ready to test and I've hadn't had one come close to failing yet.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 19, 2008)

bowser666 said:


> Still not a viable excuse for a contract. It is simple as making a reminder to call the student in a month to personally check for a update to see if they will be returning back to school. It just shows again that contract is simply their to protect the business owner's revenue flow.


Agreed.  That is precisely what a contract is for.

Daniel


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## elder999 (Aug 19, 2008)

Well, I use contracts.

Each one covers a specific portion of the curriculum-the first, for example, from white belt through the next two ranks-it also covers a set number of lessons/time period to accomplish that. If it's not accomplished within the time frame, the student goes on paying the appropriate fee until the goal is reached-if the ranks are achieved in less time (as sometimes happens) the student can move on to the next contract for the next portion of the curriculum. All of this is contingent upon their fulfilling the other portions of the contract, which pretty much cover their behavior: they get arrested for certain things, commit domestic violence, use drugs, etc., well, my dojo is in my barn-or my _home_, if you prefer, and they're out-this is something that's happened only once. On the other hand, the student is also protected-I'm committed to get them to a certain point if they fulfill those conditions, show up for class and learn the material-I'm also committed to honor their contract upon my return, should I have to suspend it for work travel-something that happens a lot more since I started teaching.

At the end of the contract though, if I have a bad vibe and don't want to teach them anymore, I don't have to give them another contract, and can recommend another teacher or school for them-something I've done once or twice.  Each successive contract charges less-a student who's been around for a while is of more value to me, and the lower cost reflects that.

I charge very little, compartively speaking, and the rent I charge my LLC for the use of the barn is low-the contract is strictly to protect my home, myself, and the students-most of whom, if they weren't my friends to begin with, become friends over time.

Consequently, I have no "Black Belt Club," or long term contracts-I'm not about to commit myself to training a sociopath in high level organized violence.


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## ChingChuan (Aug 20, 2008)

RevIV said:


> I believe there is a big difference between European and US based schools.  Not on quality but on ability to running the schools in general.    When you [Shicomm] say "typical US contract 'craze' " you do not take into consideration the economical and social differences that we are dealing with.  -- I will just leave it at that --



Can someone explain this to me? I live in Europe as well...


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## Brian S (Aug 20, 2008)

Commercialism has contributed to the downfall or atleast mediocrity of martial arts. Contracts are just a part of the commercialism. 

 Then again, if it weren't for commercialism, how many of us would even be doing ma?


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## bowser666 (Aug 21, 2008)

Brian S said:


> Commercialism has contributed to the downfall or atleast mediocrity of martial arts. Contracts are just a part of the commercialism.
> 
> Then again, if it weren't for commercialism, how many of us would even be doing ma?



It is a good question.  I just think contracts make a MA school no different from a Bally's or a Golds gym.  Places that they talk you into signing a contract , then you never hear from them again, even if you move 50 miles away and cant go there anymore.  They just give a crap about your $$$ ,  a truly concerned gym would call and ask " We haven't seen you in 3 weeks, did you get injured,  come in and let's talk about is holding you back in your training etc. "  You will never hear that from a place that pushes contracts.


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## elder999 (Aug 21, 2008)

bowser666 said:


> It is a good question. I just think contracts make a MA school no different from a Bally's or a Golds gym. Places that they talk you into signing a contract , then you never hear from them again, even if you move 50 miles away and cant go there anymore. They just give a crap about your $$$ , a truly concerned gym would call and ask " We haven't seen you in 3 weeks, did you get injured, come in and let's talk about is holding you back in your training etc. " You will never hear that from a place that pushes contracts.


 
I know there are places that use contracts that way, but it's not always what it's about-there are a variety of legal protection reasons for using them that have nothing whatsoever to do with "maximizing revenue streams," especially for schools that are businesses-mine is not exactly a business, but I still use contracts for the reasons posted-I'd never hold someone to a contract who wasn't interested in training, and there are provisions for suspending it for people who, inevitably, for one reason or another can't come to train anymore-temporarily or permanently. I can see how a business with higher overhead costs than mine might, though-that's a business decision-and yes, the product of being "strictly commercial" which carries its own burdens, obligations and compromises-things I'm glad I don't have to engage in. I'm not saying that a dojo can't be run as a business without them, but they do make things clear as a minimum, and "guarantee revenue streams" for those whom that's important for.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 21, 2008)

bowser666 said:


> It is a good question. I just think contracts make a MA school no different from a Bally's or a Golds gym. Places that they talk you into signing a contract , then you never hear from them again, even if you move 50 miles away and cant go there anymore. They just give a crap about your $$$ , a truly concerned gym would call and ask " We haven't seen you in 3 weeks, did you get injured, come in and let's talk about is holding you back in your training etc. " You will never hear that from a place that pushes contracts.


We use contracts and many times, I have personally seen Master Kim call students who haven't shown in more than a month to see what was going on with them.  A good school will be a good school, with or without contracts.

I see contracts from a different direction.  Most martial arts masters are not the most effective bill collectors, and they know it; their time is spent doing what they do best and love, which is teaching martial arts.  Having the contract and billing company takes the hassle away from them without them having to actually hire personel to do the job.  

A good school and a bad school have the same identical tools at their disposall.  A bad school that is just in it for the money will abuse those tools to that end.  A good school will use those tools to run the school more effectively and provide better service to its students.  The tools are just tools, and use of them does not make a school good or bad.  

Daniel


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## harlan (Aug 21, 2008)

I think contracts are fine. It's the type of contract that matters.

Personally, a 'business' contract puts two people into a certain relationship. Most people, I think, are used to this and think it is okay/normal. I do not. Coming from a family of musical types, and 'old European school' types, I'm used to learning an art in a mentoring fashion. My voice lessons were for money...but when you didn't have it...you sorted teachers music, ran errands, cleaned her house, listened to her stories of the Old Country. At one point, I lived in her house and she basically took care of me until I could take care of myself. It was a different kind of contract, and deeply rewarding.

I read something in this month's 'Classical Fighting Arts' magazine. In an interview with Pat Nakata, he mentions that Chosin Chibana used to say _'Deshi wa itsumo kawaii.'_...'your students are always dear to you.'

Anyone that wants to limit their training to a 'business contract'...gets what they pay for.


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## pete (Aug 21, 2008)

why shouldn't a student who (a) may not like the art, (b) may not like the instructor, (c) may no longer have the time, (d) may no longer have the money, (e) may simply decide to spend their time, money, and effort elsewhere, be free to do so without contractual obligations?

here are my previous posts on this matter, regarding what i do with my school...
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1015912&postcount=36

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1016266&postcount=43

pete.


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## GuroJason (Aug 22, 2008)

RevIV said:


> When the families come in and say they are going out of town for a month and do not want to pay, he just merely asks them to show him the letter that the mortgage co., gym , and car payment letter says that they did not have to pay them either since they were not going to be driving or be home.



It's my opinion that this would be a pretty rude thing to say to a student or his/her parents, and that that attitude might drive people away.  But, I admit that I am biased against contracts because of past experiences with a school where I used to train.  I may be naive, as running a school is very new to me, but I feel like the best way is a month to month basis for tuition, and that flexibility will have people coming back in the future if not during the Summer because of other commitments with sports or whatever else.  We have a different class schedule for Summer, to accommodate those students that would like to do both, FMA and the Summer sports.  Guro Brock (he runs the school, I only help) and I try to focus more on the students' needs so as not to drive them away by demanding that they pay when they're not going to be around.  We don't want to give people any reason at all not to come back.


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## Perpetual White Belt (Aug 22, 2008)

On the business end I wouldn't mind using a contract because it insures the school has income and keeps it open, but on the other (as Guro Jason has said) my competition has given contracts such a bad reputation that I'm going to say that the very first question I get asked is "Do you have a contract?"  When I say no the answer is always something like "Oh, good!"  I'm not totally against them as long as they're not used as a crutch to give the instructor an excuse to provide less than stellar instruction.


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## DojangMom (Aug 22, 2008)

GuroJason said:


> It's my opinion that this would be a pretty rude thing to say to a student or his/her parents, and that that attitude might drive people away.


  I agree.  That is pretty rude and does not foster a healthy relationship with your students/clients.  I don't think I'd be able to trust that person to be a good role model for my child.  Then again, as a consumer, I know that the world doesn't stop turning because I'm going away for a week or two.  The bills continue to roll in, whether or not I'm there to receive them.  In extreme circumstances, my mortgage company will agree to suspend payments for a month or two (like they did when my husband was diagnosed with cancer and we had a hairy couple of months with surgery and whatnot).  In those situations, a "good" Master will agree to do the same.


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## Grenadier (Aug 22, 2008)

bowser666 said:


> then you never hear from them again, even if you move 50 miles away and cant go there anymore.


 
In almost every valid contract, there's a clause that states, that if you move a certain distance away from any of their dojo locations, that you can get out of the contract, no strings attached.


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## bowser666 (Aug 22, 2008)

Grenadier said:


> In almost every valid contract, there's a clause that states, that if you move a certain distance away from any of their dojo locations, that you can get out of the contract, no strings attached.



True but if you don't use contracts you don't have to worry about reading all the fine print and clauses. It is a school membership fee, not a mortgage or car loan application  LOL.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 22, 2008)

Personally, my preference would be for a discounted rate if you sign the contract, but not making it manditory.  Most contracts do have descending rates for lengthier commitments, so why not start with no contract and then work from there?  Our school does offer a short try out arangement, but doesn't quite go _that_ far.

Also, I think that contracts are appropriate for some and not for others.  For instance, if you're a lifer and you know it, signing a one year contract at a school that you like is something you'd likely not bat an eyelash at.  This assumes that you've checked out the school and sat in on enough classes to get a feel for it.

On the other hand, lengthy contracts for children are foolish.  Also foolish for people who can't consistently keep time commitments, and most who can't know that they have a problem in this area.  A good friend has a contract at a Kung Fu school that he loves.  He renewed last December and hasn't shown up once this year.  He has a crazy work schedule and hasn't worked near the school in over three years (his school is near his old job).  He has no complaints about his contract and receives regular calls from his grandmaster and other instructors.  But he doesn't have the time to show up and refuses to quit.  He's been offered an out but feels that it is dishonorable to do so, even though his grandmaster understands his circumstances and would let him out of it if he asked.  He should not have signed up.

A lot comes down to the integrity of the school and the nature of the individual consumer.

Daniel


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 22, 2008)

At my first kung fu school we had no contracts at all.  You paid at the beggining of the month on the 1st.  You had two classes to pay it.  If by the 2nd class of the month you didn't have it then you couldn't come back untill it was paid. Unless you made special arrangements with the owner of the school.  This was back in 1988.  Classes were $35 a month.  If you came in and joined in the middle of the month he would only charge a portion of the $35 dollars. Times have changed since then.  That was cheap looking back on it.  The only thing you had to sign was a liability waiver.


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