# Free styling Ke(m/n)po?



## Hand Sword (Jun 24, 2010)

Hi all,

Going off of the boxing themed talks, I was curious to know how others go about combining their basics when not grabbed, or attacked with a weapon, and considering that only part of our techniques can land without finishing the whole technique. Considering all of the strikes we learn and practice what are some of the favorite combinations of them you have put together when on the offensive mindset and circling with your opponent or realizing that a preemptive response is needed. (Kind of like a boxing situation and mindset but with a Kem/npo slant to it) Let's see what our minds can come up with! 

There are two variations: 1. Opponent and I are squared off, and hands up:
                                   2. Opponent Jabs and throws a cross


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## Hand Sword (Jun 25, 2010)




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## MJS (Jun 29, 2010)

Hand Sword said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Going off of the boxing themed talks, I was curious to know how others go about combining their basics when not grabbed, or attacked with a weapon, and considering that only part of our techniques can land without finishing the whole technique. Considering all of the strikes we learn and practice what are some of the favorite combinations of them you have put together when on the offensive mindset and circling with your opponent or realizing that a preemptive response is needed. (Kind of like a boxing situation and mindset but with a Kem/npo slant to it) Let's see what our minds can come up with!
> 
> ...


 
I'm assuming you're talking about a SD situation, not a sparring setting?  If we are talking about SD, here are my thoughts:

Personally, I'm a huge fan of the preemptive strike.  Some will probably frown upon that, because on the surface, it looks like I'm the aggressor.  I disagree.  Whether or not someone is within ear shot of my attempted verbal defusing or not, really isn't a concern of mine at the moment.  Once someone starts aggressively approaching me or draws back to hit me, I'm taking that as an aggressive move, which it is, and I'm going to do something.  A nice palm to the face is always good.  Blasting into them, such as we'd see with Blauers Spear, is a good choice as well.  A well placed kick is another option.  

I view those as the entries.  From there, everything should just flow.  Punches, knees, elbows, you name it.  

Not sure if this is what you were looking for or not, but I wanted to try and breath some life back into this thread, as it has the potential for some good discussion.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 29, 2010)

That's along the lines of what I asked. The 1st option was you two, hands up and circling each other. Preemptive is sometimes necessary when it is obvious that the altercation is about to jump off.

I was also curious as to favorite specific combinations of strikes used. We learn a gazillion! I know that we don't focus or use that many. I was thinking along the lines of Boxers, and how they use their material and how if starting at their range, we would use or have used ours. Especially when most agree that we can't pull off our entire techniques as set and will only land some of it. 
(Which begs the question, why learn all of those set techniques? If we'll only land part of them, why not focus on those combinations instead?)


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## MJS (Jun 29, 2010)

Hand Sword said:


> That's along the lines of what I asked. The 1st option was you two, hands up and circling each other. Preemptive is sometimes necessary when it is obvious that the altercation is about to jump off.


 
Agreed. 



> I was also curious as to favorite specific combinations of strikes used. We learn a gazillion! I know that we don't focus or use that many. I was thinking along the lines of Boxers, and how they use their material and how if starting at their range, we would use or have used ours. Especially when most agree that we can't pull off our entire techniques as set and will only land some of it.


 
For me, if I'm going to pre-empt with something, I like to keep it simple, such as what I said earlier.  Parrying the strike and going into a lock, striking the throat, or possibly getting into a choke, are other possibilities.  




> (Which begs the question, why learn all of those set techniques? If we'll only land part of them, why not focus on those combinations instead?)


 
Yup, thats a good point.  I was debating with someone on this, over at KenpoTalk.  I was asking over there, what the purpose of learning 100+ techs., if they're not going to be able to defend themselves with a handful of punch techs., why bother learning the others?  The same for grabs, chokes, etc.  

This is probably why, especially when I'm doing a spontaneous reaction drill, I rarely, if ever, actually even think about doing a tech.


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## J Ellis (Jun 29, 2010)

I'm trying to envision a scenario where I would be "squared up with an attacker" prior to the onset of violence. I suppose I can imagine something like this, perhaps in a gang attack that is precipitated by verbal intimidation before the physical altercation begins.

But generally speaking I train for surprise assaults and ambush scenarios. I don't go to bars or nightclubs, so any fight I am in at this point in my life is likely to be very serious.

If a would-be assailant raises his hands in a boxing stance, I train to kick him immediately in the knee. Putting up his fists is an act of war, and the assault has already started. Take out his front knee, and blitz from there.

Most of my training focuses on surviving and responding to the attacks I don't see coming. The ones that blindside you before you even know there is a threat.

Joel


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## Hand Sword (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks J.! Maybe something like a sneak attack that you responded to, but somehow they ended up further away and didn't go or stay down and now you're squared off at that range. Or try and see yourself at a 7-11 or something, some words exchange and they push you away a little. Now you have to get offensive from that range....what combination do you go with?


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## Thesemindz (Jun 29, 2010)

J Ellis said:


> I'm trying to envision a scenario where I would be "squared up with an attacker" prior to the onset of violence. I suppose I can imagine something like this, perhaps in a gang attack that is precipitated by verbal intimidation before the physical altercation begins.
> 
> But generally speaking I train for surprise assaults and ambush scenarios. I don't go to bars or nightclubs, so any fight I am in at this point in my life is likely to be very serious.
> 
> ...


 
I focus a lot on blindside attacks and ambushes, but I also think it's important to have a heavy focus on face to face combat under a variety of circumstances if you're teaching self defense.

I've seen fights on tv, and internet videos, and in the dojo, and in person right in front of me while working in bars. And there are a lot of blindsides and ambushes. And they are rarely the only punches thrown in the fight.

Sure, one guy might get punched first, but one punch rarely knocks anyone out. Unless the first guy is a killer and immediately pounces on his victim one punch isn't going to end a confrontation. Often, it's only the beginning.

There may be yelling, and pushing and shoving, and objects thrown, and tripping over chairs or falling over, and innocent bystanders walking into the fight, or bumping into one of the belligerents. There may be smoke in the air, or intoxication involved, or flickering or unreliable lighting. 

Or the guy who blindsided you might have a friend coming out of the bathroom when you respond perfectly to the first attack with your flawless technique, who shoves you over a table from behind as you slam his friend to the floor. You slam into the table top with your upper body, shattering a plastic ash tray and causing bottles to slide across the wood and onto the floor. As you grab the edge of the table with both hands and push away from it, your clothes smeared with alchohol and cigarette ash, you shake your head to clear it and turn to face the second opponent, who's standing there with his arms raised. As you step away from him bringing your hands up between you to try to protect yourself, and try to assess the situation, he attacks you with a lead hand jab.

In my opinion, and my experience, it's important to know what to do if your first strike doesn't stop your opponent, and an attack evolves into a fight.


-Rob


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## J Ellis (Jun 30, 2010)

I agree that the scenario is likely to occur in specific contexts and certainly can occur in any context. If every assault was an ambush and was ended with the first exchange, there would be no reason for EPAK to contain techniques that begin in a fighting stance. But such techniques do exist, and the most likely application of them is when the first volley doesn't end it and the combatants disengage (big mistake, in my opinion, but it happens) or when additional attackers appear after the first one has gone down.

My only point is that there is a difference between self defense and fighting, at least in the way the two are defined in my training. Fighting happens in bars and outside nightclubs. Self defense is what happens when three bad guys decide they are going to keep me from putting my wife and children into the car. Self defense is not about fighting, and though I train to have the endurance to engage in extended combat, I do not train my Kenpo to trade blows. Self defense is not a fight. It is target acquisition.

Please don't mistake my position. I'm not disagreeing, per se, only clarifying certain things.

Joel


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## Thesemindz (Jun 30, 2010)

I think we're generally thinking the same thing.

I wouldn't recommend anybody _trade _blows. I'm not interested what the other guy hopes to accomplish. I'm only interested in _delivering _blows.


Waiting...waiting...


-Rob


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## TigerCraneGuy (Jul 9, 2010)

If one trains to survive ambush-type attacks committed by street predators, I think it would be wise to train responses from some kind of emergency Default Position (a term borrowed from Southnarc over at TPI).

Somehow, we have to instinctively cover up in a way that prevents us from being KO'ed while remaining mobile enough to counterattack instantly.

Different RBSD types advocate this. There's SN as mentioned who has his elbow-cover like default, one arm raised as if to launch a rising elbow, the other wrapping round the upper body at chin-level as if you're trying to hug yourself. There's the crash-cover I picked up from some Krav Maga guys, which looks pretty similar. ISR Matrix has its Helmet position. Ray Floro has his Universal Block. And Kelly McCaan's default is called Cover and Coil.

Most of them look similar; Lead arm raised in an elbow shield (covering the head, rear arm positioned to protect the jaw, legs coiled as if standing in a bastardized neutral bow.

Preemptive striking could be trained from a Fence-like position, hands up and palms outward ala Geoff Thompson.

Just my humble take on free-styling for the street.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 9, 2010)

Lot of times you will have a surprise type of attack coming from behind you. But you could have someone that just having a bad day, doesn't like the way you look, etc. Pushes you, gets in your face and wants to duke it out. It happens and you need to be prepared for it, if it does happen.


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