# Weightlifting for martial arts



## PhotonGuy (Dec 4, 2014)

Anybody lift weights as a form of cross training for martial arts? I've heard some criticism from martial artists against weightlifting, that it can make you too big and too musclebound which can sometimes be detrimental in that it can slow you down and hamper your movement.


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2014)

Plenty of people in my club do an outright weights routine. As well as circuit stuff.

you have to be pretty seriously muscle bound for it to start effecting you.


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## Danny T (Dec 4, 2014)

We have weights in our training center. It isn't cross training it is strength training. 
Are you asking about body building or strength training? Huge difference.


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## hussaf (Dec 4, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Anybody lift weights as a form of cross training for martial arts? I've heard some criticism from martial artists against weightlifting, that it can make you too big and too musclebound which can sometimes be detrimental in that it can slow you down and hamper your movement.


That's incredibly ridiculous and ignorant from people looking to excuse their own laziness.

Lifting will increase flexibility, resting metabolism, reaction time, twitch muscle ability, and reduce injury from MA training.

You don't need to do isolated muscle group lifts like curls.  That will increase some strength, especially if you don't work out much, but it's mostly for cosmetic purposes like bonds building.  

You should focus on whole-body lifts that recruit multiple muscle patterns to accomplish.  I recommend:

Deadlift
Bench Press
Pendlay Rows
Back squats (and front squats)
Standing Overhead press

Do low reps and sets, a 5x5 is a good starting point.  Do heavier weight so you are targeting our neurovascular system, and not just pumping blood and oxygen into your muscles and making them look big (which is what happens when you do iso.  Be aware if you are new to lifting you will probably feel a pump when you first start, regardless of sets/reps).

Have lots of rest.  Don't try to max out on weight more than once every month or two.

I recommend the Stronglift 5x5 program.  It's free, has an app, and has form videos.  Do that for a good while, and once you get a little experience and knowledge (maybe a year or so), you can start to modify it with other stuff.

Try to find a lifting partner that knows what they are doing.

You are never going to get big enough for it to effect your MA performance negatively unless you adhere to insanely strict diet and diet supplementation (like creatine, etc).


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 4, 2014)

Danny T said:


> We have weights in our training center. It isn't cross training it is strength training.
> Are you asking about body building or strength training? Huge difference.



Im talking about weightlifting. Specifically what kind of weightlifting, whether its for bodybuilding or strength training, for the martial arts I would emphasize strength training.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 4, 2014)

hussaf said:


> That's incredibly ridiculous and ignorant from people looking to excuse their own laziness.
> 
> Lifting will increase flexibility, resting metabolism, reaction time, twitch muscle ability, and reduce injury from MA training.
> 
> ...



I agree, that weightlifting can bring tremendous benefits for martial arts although Im not sure that everybody who is against it is because they're lazy. Some martial artists are concerned about becoming too much like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime which would be detrimental. I myself am a big fan of weightlifting. That being said I also agree with you about most of the weightlifting exercises you recommend particularly the back squat, my all time favorite weightlifting exercise although also one of the most hated. I am not a big fan of the bench press and lots of weightlifters will say that particular lift is highly overrated. I used to bench press but now I do flyers with dumbbells instead, I find it overall better and it hits more muscles. Sometimes I will do flyers with kettle bells which I find works better still.

I agree that a 5x5 program is really good, particularly for somebody just starting out. Powerlifting, where you lift as much as you possibly can for just a few reps is probably not a good idea for the martial artist as it can be detrimental and you can hurt yourself. And rest is important, I would recommend lifting three days a week so you get good rest.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 4, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some martial artists are concerned about becoming too much like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime which would be detrimental.



Definitely not a realistic worry unless you have the genetics and put a whole lot of work into a specialized diet and training program devoted towards that goal.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 4, 2014)

hussaf said:


> I recommend the Stronglift 5x5 program.  It's free, has an app, and has form videos.  Do that for a good while, and once you get a little experience and knowledge (maybe a year or so), you can start to modify it with other stuff.



+1 for the Stronglift 5X5 program.  If you've not seriously lifted weights before this is an excellent starting point.  The SL 5X5 program is a strength and mass workout and if taken seriously WILL add both that is noticeable within 2-3 months.  Again, if you take it seriously and commit to it.

For a brief summary, there are two workouts with SL 5X5 (as originally presented):

*Workout A*
Squats 5X5
Bench 5X5
Bent row 5X5
Dips 3 sets to failure

Note that 5X5 means five sets that consist of five repetitions each.

*Workout B*
Squats 5X5
Deadlift 1X5
Overhead press 5X5
Pull up and/or chin ups 3 sets to failure

If you've never worked out before, or it's been a long time, the recommendation is to begin with JUST the Olympic bar ONLY (which is 45lbs).  You will then increase the weight by 5lbs each and every time you lift.   As an example, you will be squatting each and every workout for three times a week.  Let's say Monday-Wednesday-Friday) so on Monday you'll squat with JUST the 45lbs bar for 5 sets of 5 reps each (total of 25 reps).  On Wednesday you'll add 2.5lbs to each side of the bar so you'll be squatting 50lbs for 5X5.  And on Friday you'll add another 2.5lbs to each side so you're squatting 55lbs for 5X5.  You'll add 60lbs to your squat the first month, 120lbs the second month and 180lbs by the end of the third month.  So if you started with just the bar, by the end of the third month you should be squatting 225lbs for 5X5.

The other lifts will also add 5lbs per workout but will go up a bit less as you're only performing them 1 or 2 times a week.  The program is built around the squat which uses about 70% of your total muscle mass.  You use more that just your legs in a squat.  You use glutes (butt), abs, chest, upper and lower back.  It is the best overall lift you can do.

Your goal for the SL 5X5 is to be able to squat 1.5 times your body weight, bench 1 times your body weight and press overhead .75% of your body weight. 

After you've accomplished these goals you can try a different program if you wish, and you probably should.  Lots of options such as GVT which is 10X10 but it will depend upon your goal.

Unless you pump your body with steroids you're not going to look like the roid-mutants i.e. like someone shoved an air hose up your butt and over inflated you.  You will however add mass, burn fat and gain strength depending upon you workout.  Quick and general example; high weight and low reps (say 1-5 reps) develops strength and mass.  Moderate weight and moderate reps(say 6-12 reps) develops muscularity and lean.  Low weight and high reps develops that 'toned' look (say 12-20+).  These are generalities and a lot depends on diet as well.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 4, 2014)

Look up the YT channel Athlean X for some great tips on lifting.  I've gained some very useful additions to my workout from this guy.


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## Andrew Green (Dec 4, 2014)

You'd have a very, very hard time finding any elite athlete in any sport that doesn't do some form of weight training.  It's not going to make you slow unless you are going about it completely wrong.  Do it right and it will greatly improve your speed, mobility and resistance to injury.  The problem is not knowing what to do.  Ask any experienced martial artist if you should learn martial arts without a instructor and the majority will say its a bad idea, but the majority will assume they are capable of developing a S&C routine specific to martial arts without any background in fitness.  

Personally I think not including a solid S&C program in your training is a bad idea, it will lead to more injuries and less effective training.


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## Danny T (Dec 4, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some martial artists are concerned about becoming too much like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime which would be detrimental. I myself am a big fan of weightlifting.


Weight lifting is an excellent way to strengthen the joints and muscles when done properly. No you will not get big like Arnold unless you do body building workouts. Arnold was a 'Body Builder' not just a weight lifter.


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## hussaf (Dec 4, 2014)

The powerlifting parameters we are talking about set up a physical base from which you train.  it improves your overall ability to function physically, and your overall ability to endure physical activities while maintaining health.  

All your actual training should be on the mat, and stay on the mat.  Never replicate movement patterns from the dojo, in the gym... especially with added resistance.  When you constantly do these repetitive patterns in training, you can create pattern overload and even muscle viruses.  When you go in the gym, you are correcting those patterns from the dojo and evening your body back out to stay health and prevent injury.  Think like the football player who focuses on forward-bursting plyo metrics and only lifts leg extensions.  The back of his leg becomes underdeveloped and gets blown out.  

Most importantly, this is only any good if you have good form.  and most of the form you see online and at the gym is pretty poor.

I would argue bench press, along with squat and deadlift, are the three most necessary lifts.  BP is a whole body workout that strengthens your body's ability to push electrical signals to your muscles, which increases everything from strength and coordination, to reaction time.  When benching like that, you should be set up like a spring in the bench...if someone pushes on you, you shouldn't be able to be easily moved.  Points of contact being the toes, butt, and tightly pinched shoulder blades.  Bar should drive from bottom part of chest and elbows should be around a 45 degree angle.  This forces your entire being to put all of it's energy into one point, ruminating from the ground and through the bar.  I would look at Olympic lift techniques, particularly Westside Barbell from Columbus OH (you don't have to arch your back as much as they do, their main goal is competition and that helps, but the fundamentals are sound).

Didn't realize 5x5 added dips and pull-ups.  That's awesome.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Anybody lift weights as a form of cross training for martial arts? I've heard some criticism from martial artists against weightlifting, that it can make you too big and too musclebound which can sometimes be detrimental in that it can slow you down and hamper your movement.



There is a difference between strength training and body building. Strength training is good. Bulk for bulks sake, not so much.


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## Blindside (Dec 4, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I agree, that weightlifting can bring tremendous benefits for martial arts although Im not sure that everybody who is against it is because they're lazy. Some martial artists are concerned about becoming too much like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime which would be detrimental.


 
Nobody accidentally overtrains their strength training and winds up looking like Arnold.


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## jks9199 (Dec 4, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Anybody lift weights as a form of cross training for martial arts? I've heard some criticism from martial artists against weightlifting, that it can make you too big and too musclebound which can sometimes be detrimental in that it can slow you down and hamper your movement.


So long as your workouts are properly designed, you won't get "muscle bound."  Of course, if you neglect stretching and other mobility training -- you'll have problems.  But then, you'd have those problems if you did that and didn't lift, too!


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## drop bear (Dec 5, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Weight lifting is an excellent way to strengthen the joints and muscles when done properly. No you will not get big like Arnold unless you do body building workouts. Arnold was a 'Body Builder' not just a weight lifter.



and steroids.

lets just mention how a lot of that sise is gained. Just for all those martial artists out there afraid to lift heavy


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## Danny T (Dec 5, 2014)

I'm 5'7" weight 160-165lbs age 60.
Lifted through out my life starting around 14 for strengthening after having been down from a broken leg in football. Have done strength training in some form most of my life. Still lifting. Though not as strong today as when in my prime but can still military press my body weight and bench 250. Leg press 640. Am not bulked and still much more flexible than most people I know. I also do a lot of kettlebell weight training. Excellent strength and cardio workout.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Dec 5, 2014)

If one does so, they are probably losing the Tao of Martial arts. They may need to meditate to think about it.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 5, 2014)

Danny T said:


> I'm 5'7" weight 160-165lbs age 60.
> Lifted through out my life starting around 14 for strengthening after having been down from a broken leg in football. Have done strength training in some form most of my life. Still lifting. Though not as strong today as when in my prime but can still military press my body weight and bench 250. Leg press 640. Am not bulked and still much more flexible than most people I know. I also do a lot of kettlebell weight training. Excellent strength and cardio workout.


Have you seen Sylvester Stallone? In the last Rambo and Rocky films he was about your age and he was at least as big as he was in the first films, if not bigger.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Dec 5, 2014)

Stallone 
Furrigno
Swartenegger


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## Danny T (Dec 5, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Have you seen Sylvester Stallone? In the last Rambo and Rocky films he was about your age and he was at least as big as he was in the first films, if not bigger.


Yes I have and I from what I have seen and read he was larger. Why? Because he was doing Body Building not Strength Training, Body Building is not the same as Strength Training even though they both involve lifting weights.


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## Blindside (Dec 5, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> If one does so, they are probably losing the Tao of Martial arts. They may need to meditate to think about it.


 
I have no idea what you just said here.  Are you saying "if one does so (weightlifts) they are probably losing the Tao of Martial arts?"

What is the Tao of Martial Arts?

What would meditation do?


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## hussaf (Dec 6, 2014)

I'm pretty sure he was being facetious.  No one is that ignorant.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 6, 2014)

hussaf said:


> I'm pretty sure he was being facetious.  No one is that ignorant.


 
Yes. There are people who are that ignorant.


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## Buka (Dec 6, 2014)

Weights? Those are those heavy things, right?

Do any of you other old guys remember what we were told about weightlifting back in the fifties and early sixties?

"Once you stop lifting weights - all that muscle turns to fat."

Swear to God that was the prevailing attitude. See what we had to deal with back in the day?


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 6, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Yes I have and I from what I have seen and read he was larger. Why? Because he was doing Body Building not Strength Training, Body Building is not the same as Strength Training even though they both involve lifting weights.



Bingo!

Strength training generally is heavier weight and lower reps (say 3 to 5 reps per set) whilst BB'ing is moderate weight (less than maximal) for higher reps (say 8 to 12 reps).   The number of sets differs as well.  As mentioned on the first page, SL is a strength program and is 5 sets of 5 reps each.  On the other hand, a common BBing program is GVT (German volume training) which is 10 sets of 10 reps each. 

For those that 'fear' getting huge like Arnold, here's the deal, unless you're going to start taking steroids and working out 2-3 hours a day and consuming about 300 grams of protein a day (and about 3K to 5K calories) then you're not going to have to worry about it.  Natural BB'ers workout for 45 minutes to an hour, strict diet, lots of protein and lower amounts of fats.  They can get good size and very ripped but not the over-inflated look of the steriod-mutant.

Steroid mutant:







Natural body builder:






Note the natural guy is Micheal Ferencsik and he's in his mid-50's.  Pretty darn good in my opinion.


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## hussaf (Dec 6, 2014)

Buka said:


> Weights? Those are those heavy things, right?
> 
> Do any of you other old guys remember what we were told about weightlifting back in the fifties and early sixties?
> 
> ...


I was told you can turn fat into muscle in HS and that was the 90's


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 6, 2014)

Well to everybody who does or wants to start lifting weights I will say this, weights can be dangerous so safety first. I know first hand since I once badly injured my arm in a weightlifting accident. So remember, weights are not toys, safety first.


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## Danny T (Dec 6, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well to everybody who does or wants to start lifting weights I will say this, weights can be dangerous so safety first. I know first hand since I once badly injured my arm in a weightlifting accident. So remember, weights are not toys, safety first.


Have a spotter and even better two, one on each side.


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Dec 6, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Anybody lift weights as a form of cross training for martial arts? I've heard some criticism from martial artists against weightlifting, that it can make you too big and too musclebound which can sometimes be detrimental in that it can slow you down and hamper your movement.



I would not say that to Michael Jai White. His moves are unbelievably smooth and powerful--and fast. Yet he has a body of a bodybuilder. I think he works out on his martial arts along with his bodybuilding, so they are in sync with each other.
Sifu


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## jks9199 (Dec 6, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well to everybody who does or wants to start lifting weights I will say this, weights can be dangerous so safety first. I know first hand since I once badly injured my arm in a weightlifting accident. So remember, weights are not toys, safety first.





Danny T said:


> Have a spotter and even better two, one on each side.



Depends on what you're doing.  Many activities can be dangerous is you don't do them properly.  Y'know... like, say, Martial Arts.  

If you aren't familiar with weight training -- work with a trainer.  Or at least take the time to research the proper form for exercises.  Lots of great resources are available on the web; one place to start would be the Crossfit website, where they have a lot of video tutorials about various exercises.  I also often recommend the book *The New Rules of Lifting* by Lou Schuler and Alwyn Cosgrove.

Spotters...  You need to be using them if you're going really heavy -- but the wrong spotters are useless.  Or worse.  Some will give you bad advice (well meaning, but bad), some just don't do what you need.  Some will put you in a more dangerous situation by the way they help you.  Make sure you've got knowledgeable spotters, who will pay attention.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Dec 8, 2014)

Sorry, I was in a bad mood when I wrote that. Anyways. I restate my answer:

I think one shouldn't use weights if they are trying to accomplish the true Tao of Martial Arts. I'm not saying it's bad at all because two favorite martial artists of mine used weights: Bruce lee and Jackie chan

What is Tao of martial arts? That's the question we all ask ourselves. 

Mediation? Well, it is like yin/yang. Yin is your martial arts, yang is focusing on humility. (Does that make sense I'm in a hurry)


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## MJS (Dec 8, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Anybody lift weights as a form of cross training for martial arts? I've heard some criticism from martial artists against weightlifting, that it can make you too big and too musclebound which can sometimes be detrimental in that it can slow you down and hamper your movement.



If you look at some of the guys in MMA, they're pretty big, and it doesn't seem to hinder their movement much.  

I lift weights in addition to doing body weight workouts.  Personally, I see nothing wrong with this, and given the fact that there are literally hundreds of workouts out there, it's simply a matter of picking one that'll be best suited for your needs.  The amount of weight you lift, the number of sets, reps, as well as the overall workout, all come into play.


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## MJS (Dec 8, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I agree, that weightlifting can bring tremendous benefits for martial arts although Im not sure that everybody who is against it is because they're lazy. Some martial artists are concerned about becoming too much like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime which would be detrimental. I myself am a big fan of weightlifting. That being said I also agree with you about most of the weightlifting exercises you recommend particularly the back squat, my all time favorite weightlifting exercise although also one of the most hated. I am not a big fan of the bench press and lots of weightlifters will say that particular lift is highly overrated. I used to bench press but now I do flyers with dumbbells instead, I find it overall better and it hits more muscles. Sometimes I will do flyers with kettle bells which I find works better still.
> 
> I agree that a 5x5 program is really good, particularly for somebody just starting out. Powerlifting, where you lift as much as you possibly can for just a few reps is probably not a good idea for the martial artist as it can be detrimental and you can hurt yourself. And rest is important, I would recommend lifting three days a week so you get good rest.



Just a quick note about Arnold.  It's highly unlikely that the 'average Joe' is going to have the dedication that Arnold had.  That said, no worries about the average MAist, looking remotely like him.  Of course, the topic of steroids is another issue.


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## Transk53 (Dec 8, 2014)

Danny T said:


> I also do a lot of kettlebell weight training. Excellent strength and cardio workout.



What sort weight range do use with the workout. Do you treat it the same as working out with the loose weights. Like starting lighter then going heavier, or do you use the weight kettlebells every sesh


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 8, 2014)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I would not say that to Michael Jai White. His moves are unbelievably smooth and powerful--and fast. Yet he has a body of a bodybuilder. I think he works out on his martial arts along with his bodybuilding, so they are in sync with each other.
> Sifu


In the pictures I've seen of Michael Jai White I must say he's really ripped and he's got a great body but he doesn't look as big as many of those competitive bodybuilders. He doesn't look like he would be on the cover of Flex magazine.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 8, 2014)

MJS said:


> Just a quick note about Arnold.  It's highly unlikely that the 'average Joe' is going to have the dedication that Arnold had.  That said, no worries about the average MAist, looking remotely like him.  Of course, the topic of steroids is another issue.


I was exaggerating when I said that lifting will make a person look like Arnold. Some people might be able to get that big with enough lifting but much of it is genetics, you have to be born with the proper genes to ever hope to get as big as a Mr America contestant no matter how much lifting you do. Lifting will certainly make you stronger and you will but on size and definition but as for getting super big like those guys in the muscle contests, part of that has to be natural.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 8, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Sorry, I was in a bad mood when I wrote that. Anyways. I restate my answer:
> 
> I think one shouldn't use weights if they are trying to accomplish the true Tao of Martial Arts. I'm not saying it's bad at all because two favorite martial artists of mine used weights: Bruce lee and Jackie chan
> 
> ...



The 'Tao' of martial arts is an esoteric add on that isn't required for proficiency or mastering ones art of choice.  Training with weights is viable addition that dates back centuries IN the martial arts.  Pangainoon jars are just one example or resistance (weight) training.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Dec 8, 2014)

The type of training that just popped in my head was straw hat put on your chest and running fast enough so it doesn't fall off. (Ninja training) 

I hope that was entertaining...


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## ballen0351 (Dec 8, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> part of that has to be natural.


And drugs dont forget the drug lots and lots of drug


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## Danny T (Dec 8, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> What sort weight range do use with the workout. Do you treat it the same as working out with the loose weights. Like starting lighter then going heavier, or do you use the weight kettlebells every sesh


I tend to mix it up. Sometimes I use a 35 lb bell for warming up exercises and to help get my heart rate up. Swings, walking lunges, squats, situps. Then onto heavier bells for swings, presses, squats, turkish getups, clean and jerks, etc.
Some sessions we do lighter weights for cardio and speed drills.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 8, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Sorry, I was in a bad mood when I wrote that. Anyways. I restate my answer:
> 
> I think one shouldn't use weights if they are trying to accomplish the true Tao of Martial Arts. I'm not saying it's bad at all because two favorite martial artists of mine used weights: Bruce lee and Jackie chan
> 
> ...



Assuming you are being serious, I still have no idea what you mean by "the true Tao of Martial arts" or why you feel that weight lifting would be in contradiction to said Tao.


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## Transk53 (Dec 8, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Mediation? Well, it is like yin/yang. Yin is your martial arts, yang is focusing on humility.



Confused.com What has meditation relationship wise have to do with Yin & Yang?

Damn, that auto linked. Very cool this board software.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Dec 8, 2014)

Watch the movie "man of tai chi" you'll understand. If you don't by then by god I wish you well.. Lol

Tony: not as much as a contradiction as it is holding you back, not physically but as a art and soul aspect.


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## Transk53 (Dec 8, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Watch the movie "man of tai chi" you'll understand. If you don't by then by god I wish you well.. Lol



Don't need too. So that is your point then, Tai Chi being used in an aggressive manner. What you saw in the movie was something that could be done, I would not say that was Ying and Yang IMHO.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Dec 8, 2014)

Everything relates to yin yang. It's balance.


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> The 'Tao' of martial arts is an esoteric add on that isn't required for proficiency or mastering ones art of choice.  Training with weights is viable addition that dates back centuries IN the martial arts.  Pangainoon jars are just one example or resistance (weight) training.




I'm glad you wrote that because I was sat scratching my head. I have never asked myself what the 'Tao' of martial arts is, and I like weight training.


Transk53 said:


> Confused.com What has meditation relationship wise have to do with Yin & Yang?
> 
> Damn, that auto linked. Very cool this board software.




Go with compare the market please and send me the meerkat!


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## Transk53 (Dec 8, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> If you don't by then by god I wish you well.. Lol



Yeah thanks


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## Transk53 (Dec 8, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Go with compare the market please and send me the meerkat!



Yeah sure, what should I compare lol


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah sure, what should I compare lol




Anything, I NEED the baby meerkat, I really, really do


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 8, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Tony: not as much as a contradiction as it is holding you back, not physically but as a art and soul aspect.



In what way would weight lifting hold you back in any aspects of your art or soul?


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## Deleted member 32980 (Dec 8, 2014)

One should develop himself through his own arts. But if weights is his thing, then so be it. It's not bad.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 8, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> One should develop himself through his own arts. But if weights is his thing, then so be it. It's not bad.



Resistance training is one of the ways in which a person can develop themselves in an art.  A lot depends upon the art that they are developing proficiency in and their ultimate goal(s).  Someone training for sport TKD for example may lean heavily on training that develops their speed and accuracy with a kick or punch.  Someone in Judo could benefit from resistance training, particularly functional exercises that work the whole body. 

I mentioned before about the use of Pangainoon stones/jars.  These have been used for centuries and are a part of the overall training for several different Chinese/Okinawan arts that promote hard body conditioning.  So for many arts, you cannot develop yourself to the fullest potential without resistance training. 







Weight training, in the modern sense, is just a modern adaptation on an old theme.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Dec 8, 2014)

I've never heard of the jars before...


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 8, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> I've never heard of the jars before...



This is one of the conditioning drills brought back from China by Uechi Kanbun Sensei in the early 1900's.  Historically, as reported in Uechi history, it was brought back from the Shaolin Temple in the Fukein Province.  Very good for focus and concentration so it conditions from the mental perspective.  Physically it conditions the grip, forearms, shoulders, chest, lats and abs.  Done in Sanchin stance (as noted in the pic) it conditions the legs.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Dec 8, 2014)

Do you have a video? And you kept referring it to early and then you just said 1900 that's not early.


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## Transk53 (Dec 8, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Anything, I NEED the baby meerkat, I really, really do


 
I tell you what, I am hankering after a mobile broadband deal. If I get one you can have it


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## Transk53 (Dec 8, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Everything relates to yin yang. It's balance.



Then that suggest equilibrium then. There are imperfections in all of us because nature dictates it that way. Every question I have asked has been skewed. I would like to know this balance you cite?


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## MJS (Dec 8, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I was exaggerating when I said that lifting will make a person look like Arnold. Some people might be able to get that big with enough lifting but much of it is genetics, you have to be born with the proper genes to ever hope to get as big as a Mr America contestant no matter how much lifting you do. Lifting will certainly make you stronger and you will but on size and definition but as for getting super big like those guys in the muscle contests, part of that has to be natural.



Sure, genetics certainly plays a big part of it.  As for those guys in the contests...it's certainly a bit more than genetics though.  I highly doubt that anyone can look like that, without taking steroids.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Do you have a video? And you kept referring it to early and then you just said 1900 that's not early.




I think you could re-read what KSD has written, what he says makes sense, that it have been used in China for centuries but was brought from there by Uechi Kanbun Sensei in the first years of the 1900s.


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## Transk53 (Dec 8, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> I think you could re-read what KSD has written, what he says makes sense, that it have been used in China for centuries but was brought from there by Uechi Kanbun Sensei in the first years of the 1900s.



Thanks for pointing that one out. I was so tempted...


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## Transk53 (Dec 8, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> One should develop himself through his own arts. But if weights is his thing, then so be it. It's not bad.



So now if you tap into the arts, you can influence muscle memory and fibre. We all have a common level among ourselves, that is to be expected. Stature wise a flyweight ain't going to knock out a heavyweight. Everybody needs to strengthen themselves through the physical, spirit or belief is not going to work unless you are at the Paramount studios. Develop yes in sprit. Body wise, that needs the physical being!


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 8, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Do you have a video? And you kept referring it to early and then you just said 1900 that's not early.



Tez3 is correct.  Uechi brought it back in the early 1900's.  IIRC, he began training circa 1897 and came back in 1910.  How long they trained this (and other) ways in the temple (and other places) is open to interpretation.  Suffice it to say that if he learned it in the 1890's that it was a training principle before that date.


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Tez3 is correct.  Uechi brought it back in the early 1900's.  IIRC, he began training circa 1897 and came back in 1910.  How long they trained this (and other) ways in the temple (and other places) is open to interpretation.  Suffice it to say that if he learned it in the 1890's that it was a training principle before that date.



You did write it clear enough to understand.


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## Transk53 (Dec 8, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> So now if you tap into the arts, you can influence muscle memory and fibre. We all have a common level among ourselves, that is to be expected. Stature wise a flyweight ain't going to knock out a heavyweight. Everybody needs to strengthen themselves through the physical, spirit or belief is not going to work unless you are at the Paramount studios. Develop yes in sprit. Body wise, that needs the physical being!



You agree. Hey look I am now intrigued. Just write you're position on this please?


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## K-man (Dec 8, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is one of the conditioning drills brought back from China by Uechi Kanbun Sensei in the early 1900's.  Historically, as reported in Uechi history, it was brought back from the Shaolin Temple in the Fukein Province.  Very good for focus and concentration so it conditions from the mental perspective.  Physically it conditions the grip, forearms, shoulders, chest, lats and abs.  Done in Sanchin stance (as noted in the pic) it conditions the legs.


The jars are called *nigiri game*. They are very common in Okinawa. I'm not sure that they were introduced to Okinawa by Uechi, although certainly he would have included them in his training. I think they might have been used by all the schools. Remember, Uechi didn't start teaching for many years after returning to Okinawa. Naha-te, Shuri-te and Tomari-te were well established before that.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 8, 2014)

If your really bored heres a long clip on workouts


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 8, 2014)

K-man said:


> The jars are called *nigiri game*. They are very common in Okinawa. I'm not sure that they were introduced to Okinawa by Uechi, although certainly he would have included them in his training. I think they might have been used by all the schools. Remember, Uechi didn't start teaching for many years after returning to Okinawa. Naha-te, Shuri-te and Tomari-te were well established before that.



I agree that Uechi Sensei didn't introduce them to Okinawa as whole, only to his prospective art.  I'm sure that they were quite prevalent throughout the region in that era and only one of many tools used for conditioning purposes.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 8, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> And drugs dont forget the drug lots and lots of drug


Now days, that stuff will get you disqualified.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 8, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Now days, that stuff will get you disqualified.



Right. Because it's not like there's an entire industry devoted to helping athletes find ways to avoid being caught or anything.
:double facepalm:


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## K-man (Dec 8, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Right. Because it's not like there's an entire industry devoted to helping athletes find ways to avoid being caught or anything.
> :double facepalm:


C'mon *DD*. Who in the martial arts would use drugs?

- ROYCE GRACIE TESTS POSITIVE FOR STEROIDS UPDATED MMAWeekly.com
Hmm!


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## Carol (Dec 8, 2014)

Funny, the concern about weight training and load-bearing exercises resulting in people who can't fight is never levied against the U.S. military.  This I was on patrol for as much as 14 hours a day on a mountain with a pack that weighed as much as 45 pounds, and I don't think that held a candle to what our men and women in uniform do.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 8, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Right. Because it's not like there's an entire industry devoted to helping athletes find ways to avoid being caught or anything.
> :double facepalm:


Sir, Im supposed to be facepalming you, not the other way around.


----------



## Zero (Dec 9, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Sir, Im supposed to be facepalming you, not the other way around.


Supposed to be but, as so often in life, it didn't turn out that way.


----------



## Zero (Dec 9, 2014)

MJS said:


> Sure, genetics certainly plays a big part of it.  As for those guys in the contests...it's certainly a bit more than genetics though.  I highly doubt that anyone can look like that, without taking steroids.


Obviously like in anything there are those with stand out genetics or predispositions but in general it all comes down to simply hard and clever/correct training and the use, or not, of "supplements".  All of the guys I know who have been of truly huge proportions have all admitted to be juicing it in some form or other.  These are not guys that initially started out any stronger or bigger, or with larger frames, than anyone else..."superior" genetics in itself has little to do with it and is more often cited by those that don't know what they are talking about or are making excuses for their own lack of dedication and training.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Dec 9, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Now days, that stuff will get you disqualified.



Actually it won't.  In 'professional' body building, the elite competitors all juice.  That's a gimmie and common knowledge.  That is why there is a difference between professional and natural contests.  The natural contests are tested, usually with a poly and perhaps as far as blood work.  However, as DD mentioned, a LOT can be masked and you'll have juiced competitors that have been off the sauce for a while compete in the naturals as well.  But in the big leagues it is common practice. 

If you look at the photo of the natural guy I posted, I know him.  He's 100% natural and never juiced.  About 4.5% body fat when he's competing.  He met Arnold back in the day and Arnold told him candidly that if he ever wanted to compete on the big stage that he'd have to be willing to juice.  Turned Michael off and he became an all-natural competitor winning a plethora of natural competitions. 

It's a shame really that some folks jeopardize their health to look like a freak.  And sorry, that's what thy look like.  A natural body builder has an awesome physique.  A steroid mutant is bloated and ridiculous.  When you have to put maxi pads on the insides of your thighs to keep them from chaffing because their too damn big they constantly rub together....you're too damn big.

I'm biased though, I'm a natural body builder and proud of it.


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## Transk53 (Dec 9, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Actually it won't.  In 'professional' body building, the elite competitors all juice.  That's a gimmie and common knowledge.  That is why there is a difference between professional and natural contests.  The natural contests are tested, usually with a poly and perhaps as far as blood work.  However, as DD mentioned, a LOT can be masked and you'll have juiced competitors that have been off the sauce for a while compete in the naturals as well.  But in the big leagues it is common practice.
> 
> If you look at the photo of the natural guy I posted, I know him.  He's 100% natural and never juiced.  About 4.5% body fat when he's competing.  He met Arnold back in the day and Arnold told him candidly that if he ever wanted to compete on the big stage that he'd have to be willing to juice.  Turned Michael off and he became an all-natural competitor winning a plethora of natural competitions.
> 
> ...



A work mate showed me a picture of the current state of Lex Luger. Not good.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 9, 2014)

Wow!  I wouldn't have recognized him and I use to watch him wrestle many a year ago.


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## Transk53 (Dec 9, 2014)

I would have to Google it, but I believe he is paralysed due to excessive use of steroids. What, not sure. He has a motorised wheelchair. There is a recent interview with him on American TV. Must be 20 years since I saw him on TV.


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## MJS (Dec 9, 2014)

Zero said:


> Obviously like in anything there are those with stand out genetics or predispositions but in general it all comes down to simply hard and clever/correct training and the use, or not, of "supplements".  All of the guys I know who have been of truly huge proportions have all admitted to be juicing it in some form or other.  These are not guys that initially started out any stronger or bigger, or with larger frames, than anyone else..."superior" genetics in itself has little to do with it and is more often cited by those that don't know what they are talking about or are making excuses for their own lack of dedication and training.



I agree.  We hear people complain that they see no change in their body, yet those same people fail to remember that there's more to it than just lifting.  You can do 1000 sit ups a day, but if you eat like crap, well.....

In the end, it all comes down to hard work. How hard are you (not YOU, just a figure of speech) willing to work?  If you eat right, lift right, and put in the hard work and dedication, you'll see results.  If not, well, you won't see results.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 9, 2014)

MJS said:


> We hear people complain that they see no change in their body



This is very true. I can count myself in that, too many McMuffins and all that. Thinking rather than doing. Good to see you post this snippet of the post.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 9, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> This is very true. I can count myself in that, too many McMuffins and all that. Thinking rather than doing. Good to see you post this snippet of the post.


Perhaps you should cut down on the McMuffins.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 9, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Sir, Im supposed to be facepalming you, not the other way around.



When I start posting complete and utter nonsense, you may do so. 
Until then, your complete and the utter nonsense will be face palmed. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Zero (Dec 10, 2014)

MJS said:


> I agree.  We hear people complain that they see no change in their body, yet those same people fail to remember that there's more to it than just lifting.  You can do 1000 sit ups a day, but if you eat like crap, well.....
> 
> In the end, it all comes down to hard work. How hard are you (not YOU, just a figure of speech) willing to work?  If you eat right, lift right, and put in the hard work and dedication, you'll see results.  If not, well, you won't see results.



Absolutely and as most know, the same applies to anything, just like martial arts. If you just turn up to class once or twice a week and simply go through the motions, don't put thought into your training and analyse what you are doing and don't put in crucial out of class time or take advantage of that weekend training the sensei may offer, well, it shouldn't be surprising if you're not at the top of your game.


----------



## Zero (Dec 10, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Actually it won't.  In 'professional' body building, the elite competitors all juice.  That's a gimmie and common knowledge.  That is why there is a difference between professional and natural contests.  The natural contests are tested, usually with a poly and perhaps as far as blood work.  However, as DD mentioned, a LOT can be masked and you'll have juiced competitors that have been off the sauce for a while compete in the naturals as well.  But in the big leagues it is common practice.
> 
> If you look at the photo of the natural guy I posted, I know him.  He's 100% natural and never juiced.  About 4.5% body fat when he's competing.  He met Arnold back in the day and Arnold told him candidly that if he ever wanted to compete on the big stage that he'd have to be willing to juice.  Turned Michael off and he became an all-natural competitor winning a plethora of natural competitions.
> 
> ...



Not meaning to derail the topic but I would say the likes of Arnold's physique when he was competing is probably just passable as aesthetic and in proportion, sure a massive amount of muscle but not something that had gone beyond the bounds of "reality".  For that reason, I would still state Arnold's physique is in some ways superior to the likes of more modern body builders such as Dorian Yates etc.

I agree that these days (and don't get me wrong, I appreciate the effort and ability of the likes of Coleman and Cutler etc) the elite pro body builders are pretty horrific to look at and the issues that go with being that size go on and on.

I have done a lot of lifting over the years and these days are more inclined to go with the natural/aesthetic approach, I am not as big as I used to be but am more ripped and feel much more healthy and athletic and actually that works better with my martial arts (and also while it took a while for my "ego" or self-perception to get used to not being one of the biggest/strongest guy's in the gym, the birds for whatever reason seem to prefer a less monstrous, muscle bound physique, go figure).  : )


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## Transk53 (Dec 10, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Perhaps you should cut down on the McMuffins.



Quite, but by golly they do tatste good. Sometimes though, a bit of rubbish food is needed. I had a convo with a power lifter at *Cheetahs Gym]* and he eats it. Different food at different times.


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## Zero (Dec 10, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Quite, but by golly they do tatste good. Sometimes though, a bit of rubbish food is needed. I had a convo with a power lifter at *Cheetahs Gym]* and he eats it. Different food at different times.



Gosh, you really like the taste of those things? 

For some reason I can't stand them.  The only thing I can stomach out of McDs and, to be honest, that I actually enjoy the taste of is a BigMac (as long as a fresh, piping hot one). 

I can do the chicken nuggets also if I don't want to chew on any bun but I know while they are "100% chicken" that's McD-speak and = 100% "rendered" chicken (ie chicken fat, chicken gristle, chicken skin, bone)(actually the chicken fat is too good for the nuggets, they hold that back and pump it all into those thick shakes they churn out.  : )


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## Zero (Dec 10, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Quite, but by golly they do tatste good. Sometimes though, a bit of rubbish food is needed. I had a convo with a power lifter at *Cheetahs Gym]* and he eats it. Different food at different times.


yes power lifting or strength training is completely different, if you are all about power and strength, then asthetics are not the key, strongmen and lifters often consume everything under the sun, it all goes to building more mass and strength.  An old bodybuilding saying, which is more appropriate as a powerlifting saying (depending on your weight category), goes something like: "if you see something, eat it."  

And your mate is absolutely right, the time of day (and depending when you have trained) has a massive effect on the impact certain foods will have on you, if you give a damn about that kind of thing.


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## Transk53 (Dec 10, 2014)

Zero said:


> yes power lifting or strength training is completely different, if you are all about power and strength, then asthetics are not the key, strongmen and lifters often consume everything under the sun, it all goes to building more mass and strength.  An old bodybuilding saying, which is more appropriate as a powerlifting saying (depending on your weight category), goes something like: "if you see something, eat it."
> 
> And your mate is absolutely right, the time of day (and depending when you have trained) has a massive effect on the impact certain foods will have on you, if you give a damn about that kind of thing.



Right okay. That makes sense. That power lifter was a bit chunky in the midrift.


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## cfr (Dec 16, 2014)

I took a couple years off of MA's due to a knee injury, but was able to keep lifting weights with mostly 300 type workouts during that time. A few months ago, at the ripe old age of 43 with lots of injuries, I joined an MMA gym.

By my unofficial count, out of 200 students, there are < 10 of us over the age of 30 (most are probably 20 - 25). I can tell you that I have no problem staying right in the middle of the pack in terms strength, cardio, explosiveness, etc. and would attribute it to the training Ive done for the last couple years.

FWIW


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 16, 2014)

cfr said:


> I took a couple years off of MA's due to a knee injury, but was able to keep lifting weights with mostly 300 type workouts during that time. A few months ago, at the ripe old age of 43 with lots of injuries, I joined an MMA gym.
> 
> By my unofficial count, out of 200 students, there are < 10 of us over the age of 30 (most are probably 20 - 25). I can tell you that I have no problem staying right in the middle of the pack in terms strength, cardio, explosiveness, etc. and would attribute it to the training Ive done for the last couple years.
> 
> FWIW


Good for you, although, you're really not that old. Some people reach their prime in their 40s.


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## cfr (Dec 16, 2014)

Nope, not that old.... but I'm also not as young as 95% of the students.


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## tkdwarrior (Jan 3, 2015)

Resistance training is good, it will give strength and power. Will give your body more strictural integrity. Add it to your training regimen.


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## Transk53 (Jan 3, 2015)

cfr said:


> Nope, not that old.... but I'm also not as young as 95% of the students.



Yeah, 43 ain't that old. A mere wipper snapper compared to some round here lol.


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## Transk53 (Jan 3, 2015)

cfr said:


> I took a couple years off of MA's due to a knee injury, but was able to keep lifting weights with mostly 300 type workouts during that time. A few months ago, at the ripe old age of 43 with lots of injuries, I joined an MMA gym.
> 
> By my unofficial count, out of 200 students, there are < 10 of us over the age of 30 (most are probably 20 - 25). I can tell you that I have no problem staying right in the middle of the pack in terms strength, cardio, explosiveness, etc. and would attribute it to the training Ive done for the last couple years.
> 
> FWIW



Yeah that's cool man. Continued good luck with it. Maybe I should look at joining a MMA gym.


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## Flatfish (Jan 3, 2015)

Just to throw in another snippet: I also think that progressive calisthenics can be very valuable both in terms of strength gains and overall body awareness/balance etc. I did the Stronglifts program for 3 months or so and made good strength gains but it got to the point that the weights got heavy enough that I would slightly injure myself every time I lost a bit of focus. I switched mostly to bodyweight training now, working up to muscleups, handstand pushups, one armed pushups and pistol squats. I really like the balancing aspect, especially with the pistol squats ( which so far look like I just consumed a fifth of bourbon) and I hope this is going to help my TKD. However, I will still keep weighted backsquats in my rotation because I really like what they did for my hip mobility. 

I will also have to say that doing Stronglifts 3x per week on top of cardio and 2-3 TKD classes was too much for me to recover from. I am after all oldish......


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## Transk53 (Jan 3, 2015)

Calisthenics is something that I should really delve into. I don't have a clue what it is. That is a strange situation to me


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## Dr.Smith (Jan 3, 2015)

Im a big fan of strength training, I also am a big believer in jogging/running.  My favorite routine is pull ups, shadow boxing and a three mile jog.


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## Transk53 (Jan 3, 2015)

Dr.Smith said:


> Im a big fan of strength training, I also am a big believer in jogging/running.  My favorite routine is pull ups, shadow boxing and a three mile jog.



Me, I absolutely hate running! The strength training, I would like to ask some questions on that at some point


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## Dr.Smith (Jan 3, 2015)

This weight lifting topic pops up on another forum Ive been a member of for the past couple of years, and it never fails to carry mixed opnions. On a personal note I would like to offer my own personal experience.  Without strength training I would feel lostt in the world, it dosnt just make me physically healthier but it keeps me mentally healthier as well.


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## Transk53 (Jan 3, 2015)

Dr.Smith said:


> This weight lifting topic pops up on another forum Ive been a member of for the past couple of years, and it never fails to carry mixed opnions. On a personal note I would like to offer my own personal experience.  Without strength training I would feel lostt in the world, it dosnt just make me physically healthier but it keeps me mentally healthier as well.



Intriguing! You associate both as many do. What is the key thing for you?. You're philosophy as how you would put it.


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## Flatfish (Jan 3, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Calisthenics is something that I should really delve into. I don't have a clue what it is. That is a strange situation to me



On the chance that you were not being sarcastic: calishenics=bodyweight training.

If you're doing pushups you are already doing calisthenics. The more important part here is "progressive", that means you are not just adding reps after reps after reps of a certain exercise because after a certain point you are not strength training anymore, you are training for endurance. The progressive part comes in by making the exercises progressively harder, e.g. instead of regular pushups, decline pushups, or diamond pushups, or uneven pushups, up to one armed pushups etc.

Two good resources:
1.  Convict Conditioning by Paul Wade: incredibly juvenile with the convict mystique but there are good progressions in the book. I am roughly following the program.

2. Google Al Kavadlo: books, you tube vids, blogs etc. amazing stuff the dood can do


There are plenty of others that are supposedly better (Ross Emanait etc) but I do not have first hand experience with them yet.


I would start with looking through Kavadlo's stuff since a lot of it is free.

Also, if you really want to be envious google "Hannibal for King" and "Barstarrz"


Happy hurting!


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## Dr.Smith (Jan 3, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Intriguing! You associate both as many do. What is the key thing for you?. You're philosophy as how you would put it.



  Well my approach is different than most people.  I dont use a traditional gym, I conduct all my workouts at home wth the exception of a martial arts class once a week.
  I dont power lift, although I do use weights I dont use a bench of any kind.   I use a circuit of activites to create my workout.
1.strength training-weights or body weight exorcize.
2.cardio exorcize-shadow boxing,jumping jacks etc etc.
3.core exorcize
4.shadow boxing. usually two min rounds or eight straight min.

  Thats a basic Idea of what I do five days a weeek.


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## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

Dr.Smith said:


> Well my approach is different than most people.  I dont use a traditional gym, I conduct all my workouts at home wth the exception of a martial arts class once a week.
> I dont power lift, although I do use weights I dont use a bench of any kind.   I use a circuit of activites to create my workout.
> 1.strength training-weights or body weight exorcize.
> 2.cardio exorcize-shadow boxing,jumping jacks etc etc.
> ...



Sounds pretty good. An entire work out at home unfortunately I don't have the space. Have to gym it.


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## kuniggety (Jan 4, 2015)

I do BJJ and, while the point is to learn to relax while you roll, I consistently have people comment on how strong I am. It is a distinct advantage. Martial arts, in particular grappling, helps you build core strength. You can supplement that by doing functional strength training. You don't need to eat 5000 calories and put up lots of weight on a bench to get strong; that will just get you big. Calisthenics, body weight exercises, and a bit of resistance training will do a lot for your health and your game. I plain feel better when I've been exercising and watching what I eat.


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## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> I do BJJ and, while the point is to learn to relax while you roll, I consistently have people comment on how strong I am. It is a distinct advantage. Martial arts, in particular grappling, helps you build core strength. You can supplement that by doing functional strength training. You don't need to eat 5000 calories and put up lots of weight on a bench to get strong; that will just get you big. Calisthenics, body weight exercises, and a bit of resistance training will do a lot for your health and your game. I plain feel better when I've been exercising and watching what I eat.



Yeah cool. One of guys repeatedly says thing very similar. One thing he says, is that there is "gym strength" and "core strength" through different methods. I think the idea he has, is that may train to become muscular by bulk, but that not necessarily mean that person would have the strength range over someone who just works the muscles they have. IE, someone with good conditioning it that respect.


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## Flatfish (Jan 4, 2015)

Goes together with the fact that there are so many ways to work muscles in different ways and they will lead to strength in different ways. I think that does not necessarily mean conditioning though but it is a different type of stress. As an example I take the conditioning class I took yesterday. The only two exercises I can remember to stress your back were pullups and crabwalks. My back is killing me today but I train pullups regularly so I am pretty sure it's not from those, so it must be the crabwalks or another exercise that I would not necessarily automatically associate with back training. I am sure if I tried BJJ for the first time tomorrow i would be hurting in places I didn't even know existed.......a lot of strength is exercise and stress specific.


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## Dr.Smith (Jan 4, 2015)

I started this new thing abiut a year and a half ago, basically if you cant lift it you cant use it.  I dont have a squat rack so I have to power clean everthing I squat with, its actually rorking out for me.
  Also I discovered I love the power clean, even if its just for reps of ten or fifteen. Anybody else a fan of this method or exorcize?


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 5, 2015)

I thought you guys would enjoy my find...


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## mcmoon (Jan 5, 2015)

Flatfish said:


> Goes together with the fact that there are so many ways to work muscles in different ways and they will lead to strength in different ways. I think that does not necessarily mean conditioning though but it is a different type of stress. As an example I take the conditioning class I took yesterday. The only two exercises I can remember to stress your back were pullups and crabwalks. My back is killing me today but I train pullups regularly so I am pretty sure it's not from those, so it must be the crabwalks or another exercise that I would not necessarily automatically associate with back training. I am sure if I tried BJJ for the first time tomorrow i would be hurting in places I didn't even know existed.......a lot of strength is exercise and stress specific.




Your confusing DOMS with strength.  I work out consistently with heavy weights and I do not get that sore but I could go buy a shake weight, use it for a day and would probably be extremely sore the next day because I have never used it and would probably do absolutely nothing for me other than burn a few calories.  Just because something makes you sore doesn't mean it is useful, beneficial, optimal or good.  Most gym classes just throw a bunch crap at you without any real method and you wake up the next day and say "hey I'm sore so it must have been a good workout".

Being stronger will always be a benefit.  The best way to get strong is going to mostly rely on the heavy compound lifts(squat, bench, deadlift, OHP).  Now don't confuse someone being technically better than you as being stronger.  Ex. A bjj blackbelt sweeps and manhandles a powerlifter.  The blackbelt notices certain queues and when and how to apply leverage in that context but are not physically stronger in probably anyway even though it might feel like they are stronger.  Now take that those 2 same people starting at the same time from white belt all the way to blackbelt then the powerlifter will have a huge advantage.


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## Flatfish (Jan 5, 2015)

mcmoon said:


> Your confusing DOMS with strength.  I work out consistently with heavy weights and I do not get that sore but I could go buy a shake weight, use it for a day and would probably be extremely sore the next day because I have never used it and would probably do absolutely nothing for me other than burn a few calories.  Just because something makes you sore doesn't mean it is useful, beneficial, optimal or good.  Most gym classes just throw a bunch crap at you without any real method and you wake up the next day and say "hey I'm sore so it must have been a good workout".



Yeah, my example stank, but I do know the difference between DOMS and strength . I got DOMS because I was working muscles differently than I usually do.



> Being stronger will always be a benefit.  The best way to get strong is going to mostly rely on the heavy compound lifts(squat, bench, deadlift, OHP).  Now don't confuse someone being technically better than you as being stronger.  Ex. A bjj blackbelt sweeps and manhandles a powerlifter.  The blackbelt notices certain queues and when and how to apply leverage in that context but are not physically stronger in probably anyway even though it might feel like they are stronger.  Now take that those 2 same people starting at the same time from white belt all the way to blackbelt then the powerlifter will have a huge advantage.




Yes, it will be a benefit. Is lifting heavy the best way for everyone? I don't necessarily think so. Is it effective? Yes of course.
The posts I was responding to dealt with, how they phrased it, "gym strength" vs "core strength" through different methods and that they do not necessarily have to be same but I clearly buggered that up.

What I was trying to get at, is that the way you train is going to give you strength in different scenarios/applications and I don't think that it is necessarily just technique related. For example take a noob guy who trains his back with deadlifts and rows versus another noob guy who trains bridging. Put both of them in a Kesa gatame and see which one has a harder time getting out. I would venture the weight lifting guy. Pick another scenario and the weightlifter would do better because the way he has trained will be more applicable to that situation.

And I completely agree that if two people start training at the same time the one who is stronger will have the advantage in the long run. But I do not agree with heavy lifting being the end-all-be-all.

And then of course I could be wrong about all of that


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## mcmoon (Jan 5, 2015)

Flatfish said:


> Yeah, my example stank, but I do know the difference between DOMS and strength . I got DOMS because I was working muscles differently than I usually do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for clarifying but would have to disagree on your example.  The lifter would most likely be able to bridge more weight even if he doesn't directly train the bridge.  In the deadlift you have to bring your hips through and while not quite to the extent is a similar motion to the bridge but more importantly if they were to put kesa gatame on each other the lifter would be able to hold the noob down far more easily.  The bridge is mostly hips and core and you aren't going to find a powerlifter that doesn't have extremely strong hips and core since they are very important in the squat and deadlift.


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## Flatfish (Jan 5, 2015)

mcmoon said:


> Thanks for clarifying but would have to disagree on your example.  The lifter would most likely be able to bridge more weight even if he doesn't directly train the bridge.  In the deadlift you have to bring your hips through and while not quite to the extent is a similar motion to the bridge but more importantly if they were to put kesa gatame on each other the lifter would be able to hold the noob down far more easily.  The bridge is mostly hips and core and you aren't going to find a powerlifter that doesn't have extremely strong hips and core since they are very important in the squat and deadlift.




I guess we would have to do the experiment.....

I also wasn't necessarily thinking about a guy with a 500lb deadlift either.

I got up to a 260 lb squat (x5, never tried 1RM) and a 300 lb deadlift (same) when lifting (which is laughable in terms of strict numbers but I have never been a strong person) and I still find bridging quite difficult.....

But no need to argue, I get your point.


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## mcmoon (Jan 5, 2015)

Flatfish said:


> I guess we would have to do the experiment.....
> 
> I also wasn't necessarily thinking about a guy with a 500lb deadlift either.
> 
> ...



I was just trying to have have a good debate.  I think the issue with most people is they don't want to put in the time or have the patience to get stronger.  I don't mean having to go to the gym every day but be consistent.  Growing up I was never a strong individual.  In college I started working out some but kind of did what I seen what everyone else was doing.  After college I done some research, learned loads and have stuck to the same program for almost 3 years now.  I started out with around 200 bench, 240 squat, and probably around 260 deadlift(all these and following numbers are 1 rep maxes).  My numbers now are roughly 260-270 bench, 365 squat and just yesterday hit a 445 deadlift.  My bodyweight at the moment is between 175-179 most days.  Getting stronger is a marathon not a sprint and takes time.


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## Flatfish (Jan 5, 2015)

Jealous!!!!
I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread but I started to get really worried about injury and recovery with the heavy weights. Didn't feel comfortable to me anymore, which also has to do with the fact that my bones are getting old. Plus I despise racking weights . I still squat but not as heavy and not pushing myself quite so hard. Mostly progressive calisthenics now which is definitely a journey as well.


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 12, 2015)

Flatfish said:


> Jealous!!!!
> I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread but I started to get really worried about injury and recovery with the heavy weights. Didn't feel comfortable to me anymore, which also has to do with the fact that my bones are getting old. Plus I despise racking weights . I still squat but not as heavy and not pushing myself quite so hard. Mostly progressive calisthenics now which is definitely a journey as well.





Flatfish said:


> Jealous!!!!
> I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread but I started to get really worried about injury and recovery with the heavy weights. Didn't feel comfortable to me anymore, which also has to do with the fact that my bones are getting old. Plus I despise racking weights . I still squat but not as heavy and not pushing myself quite so hard. Mostly progressive calisthenics now which is definitely a journey as well.


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 12, 2015)

I hope no one minds me butting in on this thread. I admit I really am a genetic freak, I was lifting more when I first started lifting than most do after years of training. I have done squats with 865 lbs for a triple 4 years ago and even did 10 reps with 700 just a three months ago at the age of 50. I have also done 545 for 4 reps in the bench. These are all "raw lifts" with no suits.    

I fully believe that drug free bodybuilding along with cardio (which really is and should be part of BB) is by far THE best form of cross training a martial artist/fighter can do. I am talking about using various rep patterns on the major muscle groups using basic compound movements. Not the improper version of BB that people who use other training accuse BB of doing.                         

My experience has been the stronger I became, the better a fighter I was. It has greatly enhanced my athletic ability. I should mention that I do stretch and  do cardio (though once again, this should be a part of natural BB anyhow), but the weight training/BB I do has only enhanced my speed, strength and agility


PhotonGuy said:


> Anybody lift weights as a form of cross training for martial arts? I've heard some criticism from martial artists against weightlifting, that it can make you too big and too musclebound which can sometimes be detrimental in that it can slow you down and hamper your movement.


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 12, 2015)

Kwan Jang said:


> I hope no one minds me butting in on this thread. I admit I really am a genetic freak, I was lifting more when I first started lifting than most do after years of training. I have done squats with 865 lbs for a triple 4 years ago and even did 10 reps with 700 just a three months ago at the age of 50. I have also done 545 for 4 reps in the bench. These are all "raw lifts" with no suits.
> 
> I fully believe that drug free bodybuilding along with cardio (which really is and should be part of BB) is by far THE best form of cross training a martial artist/fighter can do. I am talking about using various rep patterns on the major muscle groups using basic compound movements. Not the improper version of BB that people who use other training accuse BB of doing.
> 
> My experience has been the stronger I became, the better a fighter I was. It has greatly enhanced my athletic ability. I should mention that I do stretch and  do cardio (though once again, this should be a part of natural BB anyhow), but the weight training/BB I do has only enhanced my speed, strength and agility


I think ideas like "gym strength" and "core strength" or the currently popular notion of "functional strength" are ridiculous. It goes by the false notion that the strength developed by weight training is not functional. I have had a bit of success in Jiu-Jitsu myself, taking the silver in Black Belt Gi and gold in No-Gi at a JJ World Championship (at least for the old guys) and I can say that my strength and athletic ability has been a great advantage when combined with my skill and technique.


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## geezer (Jan 13, 2015)

Kwan Jang said:


> I think ideas like "gym strength" and "core strength" or the currently popular notion of "functional strength" are ridiculous.


 
I'd have to disagree. I've known many individuals with powerful looking bodies who lacked functional strength for specific tasks. But I would absolutely agree that a well designed weight training program is a great way to enhance functional strength. Work and health issues got me out of my program, and I really need to get back on track. So I'll just shut up now...

By the way, I'm a genetic freak too.    -- But not in a good way.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 13, 2015)

Kwan Jang said:


> I hope no one minds me butting in on this thread. I admit I really am a genetic freak, I was lifting more when I first started lifting than most do after years of training. I have done squats with 865 lbs for a triple 4 years ago and even did 10 reps with 700 just a three months ago at the age of 50. I have also done 545 for 4 reps in the bench. These are all "raw lifts" with no suits.



So just how big are you? To be able to lift weight like that you must be huge.


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 16, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So just how big are you? To be able to lift weight like that you must be huge.


There is an old video of me on page six of the members in motion forum. For most of my heavier lifts I was between 245-255 lbs at about 8 percent body fat. In the video, most shots I'm about 240. These days I am about 225-230. My joints at 50 just don't like the pounding it took to maintain that size, though the 10 reps at 700 lbs squats was recent and at this size.


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 16, 2015)

geezer said:


> I'd have to disagree. I've known many individuals with powerful looking bodies who lacked functional strength for specific tasks. But I would absolutely agree that a well designed weight training program is a great way to enhance functional strength. Work and health issues got me out of my program, and I really need to get back on track. So I'll just shut up now...
> 
> By the way, I'm a genetic freak too.    -- But not in a good way.


It's obvious that some guys in the gym can train in a stupid manner (such as the trend called "functional training"). I'm referring to the style of training that many personal trainers are marketing to their clients now. One of the most classic forms of gym stupidity is to train to build your musculature outside the natural proportionatte and strength curves of the body (ex. Falling in love with bench and curls and never squatting so you can look like a lightbulb). If you train so that your muscles are not in their natural proportions to each other, of course it will negatively effect your athletic performance. My point is that a well designed bodybuilding program will do a far better job of developing functional strength than the goofy methods of the popular training fad of that name.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 16, 2015)

Kwan Jang said:


> I think ideas like "gym strength" and "core strength" or the currently popular notion of "functional strength" are ridiculous. It goes by the false notion that the strength developed by weight training is not functional.


It depends on whether someone cares about

- muscle group isolation, or
- body unification.

Here are few examples of "function strength" training. The important of the "function strength" training is when you move, your all body parts move at the same time. This can map to your MA training nicely. When you stop, your all body parts stop at the same time. This is quite different from the "bench press" approach that you only move your arms while the rest part of your body are not moving.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 16, 2015)

This is my favor weight training tool. If you can twist a heavy object like this, 






on the wrestling mat, you can easily twist your opponent down to the ground.






Today, I can use this machine to develop "arms twisting" too if I use both hands to hold on both handlers. When I did that in my gym, people always gave a strange look. I assume most people just use this machine to twist their waist instead.


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## crazydiamond (Jan 17, 2015)

Another vote for the 5x5 system of strength training, although I have modified the 5x5 routine to deal with my own body needs and limitations. Also working out at home (with out a spotter) I strongly recommend a power rack with safety bars and a pullup bar. NY barbell makes good racks.


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 17, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is my favor weight training tool. If you can twist a heavy object like this,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for a great example of people drinking the kool aid of functional strength training. I am not trying to be demeaning, but these snake oil salesmen in the fitness industry put out this garbage and bash what really would be effective for people with misinformation.


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 18, 2015)

Kwan Jang said:


> Thank you for a great example of people drinking the kool aid of functional strength training. I am not trying to be demeaning, but these snake oil salesmen in the fitness industry put out this garbage and bash what really would be effective for people with misinformation.


I don't have the time or inclination to get technical on this matter, but let me just say that I have both the educational and practical experience to both know what I am talking about and to know that most likely those who drink the kool aid are unlikely to be receptive even if I took the time and effort to provide unquestionable evidence. And they will usually resent your attempts to make it better for them .


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## drop bear (Jan 18, 2015)

Kwan Jang said:


> Thank you for a great example of people drinking the kool aid of functional strength training. I am not trying to be demeaning, but these snake oil salesmen in the fitness industry put out this garbage and bash what really would be effective for people with misinformation.



Yeah but that bowl thing on the other hand looks like serious business.

Are you putting out that all functional strength is a bad direction?

Or that people are jumping on the functional strength band wagon to sell garbage?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 18, 2015)

Kwan Jang said:


> Thank you for a great example of people drinking the kool aid of functional strength training. I am not trying to be demeaning, but these snake oil salesmen in the fitness industry put out this garbage and bash what really would be effective for people with misinformation.


This weight training method had existed in China for a long time. It was recorded in Tong Zhongyi's (1879 – 1963) book "The Method of Chinese Wrestling" later on published by Auguest, 1974. The English translation book is also available and translated by Tim Cartmell.

Tong Zhongyi and his Shuai Jiao Masters of the IMA











It's also shown in Wang Fenting's "Shuai Chiao Training" published by January, 1968.






One can use a container like this and filled with water. It can be used to train:

- both arms twisting power,
- arms, waist, legs coordination,
- footwork.


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## BeeBrian (Jan 21, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Anybody lift weights as a form of cross training for martial arts? I've heard some criticism from martial artists against weightlifting, that it can make you too big and too musclebound which can sometimes be detrimental in that it can slow you down and hamper your movement.



I competed in powerlifting and did some olympic-style lifting when I was a teen. 

My opinion is that getting physically stronger, whether through lifting weights or magically becoming that way, will have *a positive transfer in all full-contact combat sports. *I think the biggest testament to this is the fact that Dana White will never pit BJ Penn with Brock Lesnar. Whoever wins will be a loss in UFC. If Brock wins, people will think he's a mean bully who picks on the weak. If BJ wins, people will never again pay for a PPV Brock Lesnar fight. I know there's no such thing as bad publicity, but there is such a thing as a boycott.


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## Matt Bryers (Jan 23, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Anybody lift weights as a form of cross training for martial arts? I've heard some criticism from martial artists against weightlifting, that it can make you too big and too musclebound which can sometimes be detrimental in that it can slow you down and hamper your movement.



I do extensive strongman training, unconventional training (kettlebells, sandbags, etc) and bodyweight training to enhance my martial arts skills.

When I was competing in strongman, I had a huge increase in strength on the mat, but wasn't able to move as well.  My strength became an asset, not my movement.  When I switched back to more performance based training, I still maintained about 70-80% of my top-end strength, but also had the ability to move and perform on the mat.  

On a side note: It is NOT easy putting on serious mass and size.  I am a fairly big guy (around 230), but when competing in strongman I was around 270.  It took me almost 8 months of hardcore training and EATING to gain that size.  It is not easy.  

So, if you add a solid strength training / performance training routine to your martial arts, I think you'll have great success.


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## Buka (Jan 23, 2015)

Kwan Jang said:


> Thank you for a great example of people drinking the kool aid of functional strength training. I am not trying to be demeaning, but these snake oil salesmen in the fitness industry put out this garbage and bash what really would be effective for people with misinformation.





Kwan Jang said:


> I don't have the time or inclination to get technical on this matter, but let me just say that I have both the educational and practical experience to both know what I am talking about and to know that most likely those who drink the kool aid are unlikely to be receptive even if I took the time and effort to provide unquestionable evidence. And they will usually resent your attempts to make it better for them .



I find those posts rather abrasive, insulting even.


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## BeeBrian (Jan 23, 2015)

Kwan Jang said:


> I hope no one minds me butting in on this thread. I admit I really am a genetic freak, I was lifting more when I first started lifting than most do after years of training. I have done squats with 865 lbs for a triple 4 years ago and even did 10 reps with 700 just a three months ago at the age of 50. I have also done 545 for 4 reps in the bench. These are all "raw lifts" with no suits.
> 
> I fully believe that drug free bodybuilding along with cardio (which really is and should be part of BB) is by far THE best form of cross training a martial artist/fighter can do. I am talking about using various rep patterns on the major muscle groups using basic compound movements. Not the improper version of BB that people who use other training accuse BB of doing.
> 
> My experience has been the stronger I became, the better a fighter I was. It has greatly enhanced my athletic ability. I should mention that I do stretch and  do cardio (though once again, this should be a part of natural BB anyhow), but the weight training/BB I do has only enhanced my speed, strength and agility



You squatted 865 for a triple in your mid forties? Raw?

Just making sure, this post was sarcastic, right?

I EAT professional powerlifters alive. I have a friend who squatted 720 pounds when he was in college. He doesn't know how much he can squat now during his forties, but I have witnessed him front squat 495 pounds for ten reps. When we get into a discussion about weightlifting and powerlifting however, I can topple what he knows with what I know.

It wouldn't take long for me to figure out if you're trolling or not. lol.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 24, 2015)

BeeBrian said:


> You squatted 865 for a triple in your mid forties? Raw?
> 
> Just making sure, this post was sarcastic, right?
> 
> ...



40s isn't old, certainly not in this day and age. There is no reason somebody in their 40s shouldn't be at their prime if they keep on training.


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## drop bear (Jan 24, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> 40s isn't old, certainly not in this day and age. There is no reason somebody in their 40s shouldn't be at their prime if they keep on training.



A 400kilo squat is kind of a big deal.


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## BeeBrian (Jan 25, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> 40s isn't old, certainly not in this day and age. There is no reason somebody in their 40s shouldn't be at their prime if they keep on training.


 
If you're a competitive lifter who takes lifting seriously and happen to have the genes of Shrek, then yes, a 800+ pound raw squat at age 40 is doable.

But there is no such thing as a 40 year old weekend warrior who has enough time to post on a forum to be that strong. You need to compensate extreme training devotion in order to be a tough old man.

If he is really what he claims to be, then I'd like to see him post a video of him squatting 500 for 3 rapid reps. Surely he'd be able to do it.


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## Shai Hulud (Feb 17, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Anybody lift weights as a form of cross training for martial arts? I've heard some criticism from martial artists against weightlifting, that it can make you too big and too musclebound which can sometimes be detrimental in that it can slow you down and hamper your movement.


For building strength, weights, either body or free, are essential. I personally use kettlebells (2x 18-lbb, 2x 26-lb, 2x 35-lb, 1x 53lb) for building strength and cardio, and toning muscles along the way.

Weight training is essential for the pulls and pushes you will have to make in the martial arts, so long as you remember as you are training for the martial arts, and not to become a power-lifter/bodybuilder.


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## whitebeltforever (Mar 1, 2015)

hi everyone was just looking for exercise, body shape and weights advice pls?

PART 1: how much weight should a chick lift? i'm pretty heavy 83kgs, and i can only lift about 9kgs in an overhead arm type press and only 100kgs max in leg press.

PART 2: i read this article (insanely scientifically flawed but makes some practical sense to my own experience) that said that body shape can determine suitability of exercises/sports (i know i know it's really outdated but tru for me), and it basically talked about what's already true for me which is that for my body/combined body shape/type (i'm like a viking in comparison to other asian girls i know lol) that high energy cardio (like 1hr of high energy, jumping around aerobics class) isn't as suitable as strong bursts of powerful energy workouts (like martial arts) with weights and swimming for my type. which made all my life's exercise experience made sense all of a sudden, i would often feel light headed, trembly, fatigued and weak after intense aerobics but after doing weights or recently, martial arts, i feel more energised..

so i experimented. last week i thought i was in the best health for a really long time (i have an autoimmune illness and trying to build up my health again because in recent years its been on the decline) and so i joined a zumba class. now, normally i can keep up for about 40mins. after that it's a serious struggle. but that day i lasted the whole class and didn't feel like collapsing until after about 50mins of the 1hr class, which is a huge diff for me, but still i felt trembly afterwards etc. then this week i did 15mins of warm ups and about 30mins of weights on the weight machines, which is unusually long for me because i've always been told to burn fat burn fat with cardio cardio cardio lol (im inexperienced with free weights, if u hav any tips for me that would b great ), and afterwards i went swimming for another 15mins. which all adds up to an hour of course but if i include rest and stretching breaks it would be about 45mins i guess. but it's been several hours after my workout now and i feel energised, focused and not fatigued, weak or light headed. i know there are a lot of confounding variables and it's not that scientific but i think this feels right for me, which explains why i could never ever in my whole life do what i thought was exercise, which was high energy cardio. i noticed the "body type" phenomenon also after about a month of karate. it makes me feel energise and focused afterwards. i can never ever run much, and feel like im about to die if i do aerobics any more than 2 times a week and often it will trigger my illness.

has anyone else had similar experiences with this? and if you can give me some tips for the gym in terms of weights that would b fantastic 
thanks!

Just Your Type Experience Life
The Ultimate Female Training Guide Specific Proven Methods to Get Lean And Sexy SimplyShredded.com


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## toddfletcher (Mar 13, 2015)

I started Olympic Weight Lifting recently. It has definitely improved my fighting. Overall body strength and quickness of muscle movement. NOTE: I have had to increase my flexibility training to counter what seems to be a bit of tightening.


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