# Ethics of Removing a BB from thier Family Tree



## Zoran (May 26, 2005)

I've heard ethical arguments about removing someone from their family tree.

 You have a falling out, happens all the time, with one of your black belts. You then remove them from your black belt tree. 

 Is this fair? It it even ethical?? 

 I look at it this way. Kenpo is a school. When you get your black belt, it's like getting a diploma from an academic school. Lets say that you recieve your BS from a university. Then a few years down the road, the head of the school decides he doesn't want the school associated with you. They then remove you from the list of graduates. 

 My take is that I completely disagree with removing someone for what they earned. In our system, we had a falling out with three black belts. Complete loss of contact and a lot of negative feelings towards those black belts exist to this day. But, we still list them in our BB tree. 

 Please do not go to the pointing fingers discussion. Such as what GM Tracy did. Trust me, he is not the only one. I've heard of EPAK instructor's doing the same, as well as other systems.


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## dsp921 (May 26, 2005)

Happens all the time. Doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Sure, you can take them off the tree, take back the certificate, take back the belt. You can't take back the skills and the knowledge and that's what really matters. Once someone earns their rank it's theirs. Taking them off the tree doesn't and cannot undo what's done.
Fair or ethical? Who knows, probably not. But I for one don't do this so I have my name on a list or have a certificate to hang on the wall. The belt is cool, though :rofl:


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## Doc (May 26, 2005)

interesting perspective, but let's turn it around. What about when a student no longer "claims" you as his instructor? This happened to me with one of my black belts when, for unknown reasons of his own, insists he's first generation. This in spite of every IKKA Diploma he has up until the passing of Ed Parker Sr. has my signature on the "instructor" line.

Do you now remove him from your tree, because of his claims?


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## mj-hi-yah (May 26, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> interesting perspective, but let's turn it around. What about when a student no longer "claims" you as his instructor? This happened to me with one of my black belts when, for unknown reasons of his own, insists he's first generation. This in spite of every IKKA Diploma he has up until the passing of Ed Parker Sr. has my signature on the "instructor" line.
> 
> Do you now remove him from your tree, because of his claims?


No, I think that's called _crazy..._:hammer: :anic: :tantrum: You check him in to the nearest clinic.


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## BallistikMike (May 26, 2005)

or...



* Next to the name of the person with a disclaimer

For example

Joe Black Belt *



* No longer associated with instructor or school or association

If you as a student are going to rewrite your history or cut ties with your instructor, your instructor has every right to explain why at the very least use an * by your name on his lineage line.


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## Doc (May 26, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> or...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is what I chose to do. He removed himself from my lineage, however I was his teacher and promoted him. Weird.


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## mj-hi-yah (May 26, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> That is what I chose to do. He removed himself from my lineage, however I was his teacher and promoted him. Weird.


Did you ever have the opportunity to ask him why?


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## Doc (May 26, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> No, I think that's called _crazy..._:hammer: :anic: :tantrum: You check him in to the nearest clinic.


I agree. What is - is. Move on from there. Truth is I believe he has some significant emotional problems. Or as my daughter used to say when she was a baby, "He got issues."


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## mj-hi-yah (May 26, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> I agree. What is - is. Move on from there. Thruth is I believe he has some significant emotional problems. Or as my daughter used to say when she was a baby, "He got issues."


LOL yes I agree it's likely he is not well, or as my daughter would say, "_You've got serious issues pal!"_


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## Doc (May 26, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> LOL yes I agree it's likely he is not well, or as my daughter would say, "_You've got serious issues pal!"_


He hasn't had a decent conversation with me in over a decade. Ed Parker speculated with me about possible reasons, and they were all very petty and envy oriented. Nevertheless he persists and insists he was never my student, in spite of Ed Parker Sr.'s Family Tree entry. He has joined and quit several organizations siting "issues" with all of them. Emotional problems still seem to be the most reasonable when all things are considered in there entirety. Unfortunately it really is his loss. Go Figure.


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## mj-hi-yah (May 26, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> He hasn't had a decent conversation with me in over a decade. Ed Parker speculated with me about possible reasons, and they were all very petty and envy oriented. Nevertheless he persists and insists he was never my student, in spite of Ed Parker Sr.'s Family Tree entry. He has joined and quit several organizations siting "issues" with all of them. Emotional problems still seem to be the most reasonable when all things are considered in there entirety. Unfortunately it really is his loss. Go Figure.


A child can grow up and decide to publicly disown a parent or vise versa, but that will not erase the fact that there is a biological connection between them.  It is similar here I think.  If the training was completed and a belt awarded that fact can not be changed, but if for reasons of dishonor or in your case envy a person chooses to break ties, than I agree an * with an explanation is appropriate.  If a student disowns a teacher as in this case, it is doubtful that they will ever claim lineage because it was the student's choice, but the interesting question to me here is - in the case of a teacher disowning a student, can the student rightfully still claim lineage, say as a school owner?  Did Mr. Parker ever take back the patches and certificates of any of his black belts?


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## Doc (May 26, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> A child can grow up and decide to publicly disown a parent or vise versa, but that will not erase the fact that there is a biological connection between them.  It is similar here I think.  If the training was completed and a belt awarded that fact can not be changed, but if for reasons of dishonor or in your case envy a person chooses to break ties, than I agree an * with an explanation is appropriate.  If a student disowns a teacher as in this case, it is doubtful that they will ever claim lineage because it was the student's choice, but the interesting question to me here is - in the case of a teacher disowning a student, can the student rightfully still claim lineage, say as a school owner?  Did Mr. Parker ever take back the patches and certificates of any of his black belts?


No. Once awarded it became the property of the student. Parker placed people on his Familty Tree that privately he wished he didn't have to. But he also felt truth is truth and always gave credit where credit was due, even if it he didn't want to.


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## mj-hi-yah (May 26, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> No. Once awarded it became the property of the student. Parker placed people on his Familty Tree that privately he wished he didn't have to. But he also felt truth is truth and always gave credit where credit was due, even if it he didn't want to.


Interesting, and the ethical thing to do I think. :asian:  Thanks for sharing the insight Doc.


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## 47MartialMan (May 26, 2005)

Zoran said:
			
		

> I've heard ethical arguments about removing someone from their family tree.
> 
> You have a falling out, happens all the time, with one of your black belts. You then remove them from your black belt tree.
> 
> ...


This happens because the student either looses respect or loyalty to the teacher. It not only happens in martial arts, or other teacher to student, but also of parents to offspring.


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## Zoran (May 27, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> interesting perspective, but let's turn it around. What about when a student no longer "claims" you as his instructor? This happened to me with one of my black belts when, for unknown reasons of his own, insists he's first generation. This in spite of every IKKA Diploma he has up until the passing of Ed Parker Sr. has my signature on the "instructor" line.
> 
> Do you now remove him from your tree, because of his claims?


 No I would not. He received most of his training under you. 

 Why play his game, play by your rules. Sort of our philosophy in self defense too.

 P.S.
 Sorry too hear this happened to you. I know how painful it is. I remember the pain my instructor went through with his. Also, our case was a little different. Those black belts did not leave so much as booted out. I won't go into details as it is a private matter, but it hurt many people no matter what the cause. Anyways, a long time ago and both parties have moved on and are thriving seperately now.


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## kenposikh (May 27, 2005)

Just putting in my two cents worth. I believe that honour and respect are tantamount in this situation.

If the student denounces the instructor then he/she has no respect for them however I don't believe they should be removed from the family tree, look at it from the point of view of a real family you can't choose or drop family members can you so once you get onto a family tree you are there forever. It would be honourable for the instructor to leave them there and for the student to have to keep facing questions like well why are you on their tree.

Who really cares what the student says he can denounce all he likes but no instructor would put someone on their tree if they weren't legitimate Would they?

So removing people from a family tree is also imo also wrong they got there and should stay there.


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## hammer (May 27, 2005)

Just my thoughts, 

Its unfortunate that we cant change the past; there is no "back to the future. So what was was!! 

Whether you chose to acknowlegde the past, is another issue. Human relationships and emotions are often fickle at best, primarily based on perception of the Individuals concerned.

Although what I feel is most important is whether you have the knowledge and skills, you can have all the belts, certificates, titles, and claims to linage you want, but it comes down to whether you know the material or you dont its simple,


And if you know your ART, Your talents will surface either way

Like I said just my thoughts

Cheers


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## MJS (May 27, 2005)

I'm sure this happens all the time due to one reason or another.  Yes, your name can be removed, your affiliation with the org. will end, but in the end, you will still be a BB.  

One option, as was already mentioned, is to put an * by the persons name.  The name is still on the tree, but its made clear that said person is no longer affiliated with the org.

Mike


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## Pale Rider (May 27, 2005)

Something very similiar has happened to me. My previous instructor says that he wants nothing to do with me anymore, and has taken my name off of his roster, but yet if you go to his website and download the ".doc" file that he has with the membership roster on it you will find my name on there, but saying that I am no longer in the association.  He has "demanded" that any certificates that I got from him be taken down off of any website(s) that I had them on.  

I agreed to the terms of removal of either one of our names from the other's website. (He take my name off and I take his off), but what eludes me is that he still goes to every forum that he can frequent and bash me.  I have since then joined a different school with a different Master instructor and we get along great.

Since the previous instructor has continued to bash me regardless of what is said to him about anything - do you think that I should put my certificates that I earned back on my website?  Since regardless he will do and say what he wants anyway...

Thanks for the advice


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## KenpoDave (May 27, 2005)

Listing someone on your family tree can imply (or at least lead people to infer) that they are associated with your organization and operating under the bylaws, with your approval.

If I promote someone, and I have my own organization with bylaws as to how things should be done, and that person breaks those rules, how should that be handled?  Or, what if the person in question is involved in something illegal/immoral in regards to teaching, and he has the name of my organization all over his school?  I can't take away their skill or knowledge, but I should have the right to remove them from my organization.

Loyalty is paramount, and it is a two way street.


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## Doc (May 27, 2005)

Pale Rider said:
			
		

> Something very similiar has happened to me. My previous instructor says that he wants nothing to do with me anymore, and has taken my name off of his roster, but yet if you go to his website and download the ".doc" file that he has with the membership roster on it you will find my name on there, but saying that I am no longer in the association.  He has "demanded" that any certificates that I got from him be taken down off of any website(s) that I had them on.
> 
> I agreed to the terms of removal of either one of our names from the other's website. (He take my name off and I take his off), but what eludes me is that he still goes to every forum that he can frequent and bash me.  I have since then joined a different school with a different Master instructor and we get along great.
> 
> ...


A person may be removed from an organization, or remove themselves, however diplomas, belts, etc awarded when you were in good standing belong to you.

I had a discussion with a young man who was removed from a family tree and organization because he didn't agree with some "personal issues" the head instructor had. The instructor wanted everything back, and he asked my advice. I told him to tell his former instructor, to refund the eight years of lessons, belt promotions, and activity fees over that period, and you will return the belt and diplomas. He told me the instructor said, "But you already had the lessons." The young man said, "My point exactly." and walked away. He hasn't heard anything from his former instructor since.


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## DavidCC (May 27, 2005)

I suppose the head of a system can do whatver he wants with his black belt "tree", as they see fit.  Personally, I don't know what is "right".

but I do know what is "wrong" : when asked specifically about a person who received a black belt, to lie and say they never did, even if you have removed them from the "tree".  An honest answer would be "yes he was awarded that rank but is no longer affiiated with our organization".

Maybe there are 2 types of tree: one that lists the people currently in your organization, and one that shows everyone who was ever in it.


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## Kenpodoc (May 27, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> interesting perspective, but let's turn it around. What about when a student no longer "claims" you as his instructor? This happened to me with one of my black belts when, for unknown reasons of his own, insists he's first generation. This in spite of every IKKA Diploma he has up until the passing of Ed Parker Sr. has my signature on the "instructor" line.
> 
> Do you now remove him from your tree, because of his claims?


It's dissapointing when something like this happens.  Students can start to feel like family. If he's the man I'm thinking of he's still very talented and it appears that his first instructor gave him an excellent base for his continued studies.  Perhaps i'm wrong but I'd recommend that you feel disappointed and proud.  

As to the initial question I don't believe one should edit their family tree.  an asterix explaining the split might be appropriate.

Jeff


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## Michael Billings (May 27, 2005)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> I suppose the head of a system can do whatver he wants with his black belt "tree", as they see fit. Personally, I don't know what is "right".
> 
> but I do know what is "wrong" : when asked specifically about a person who received a black belt, to lie and say they never did, even if you have removed them from the "tree". An honest answer would be "yes he was awarded that rank but is no longer affiiated with our organization".
> 
> Maybe there are 2 types of tree: one that lists the people currently in your organization, and one that shows everyone who was ever in it.


 I agree with this and like the honesty.

 -Michael


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## 47MartialMan (May 27, 2005)

But what f the student became disrespectful, rogue, dishonored the teacher?


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## MisterMike (May 27, 2005)

Maybe we should make the distinction between the Family Tree and Records of Rank. People may receive rank and then leave - whether they are removed or quit themselves. It would then be on record that the person received such and such rank - just not publicly displayed. But the Tree, should display who is still active and training. It should represent life, otherwise you just have a lot of dead wood.


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## kenpo3631 (May 27, 2005)

What aboout the student that openly admits "I owe my skill and knowledge" to his instructor, then leaves and when asked of his lineage NEVER even mentions his original instructor again?


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## kenpo3631 (May 27, 2005)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Maybe we should make the distinction between the Family Tree and Records of Rank. People may receive rank and then leave - whether they are removed or quit themselves. It would then be on record that the person received such and such rank - just not publicly displayed. But the Tree, should display who is still active and training. It should represent life, otherwise you just have a lot of dead wood.



Good point!


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## 47MartialMan (May 27, 2005)

Represent life, when bad branches fall off?

When these branches fall off, is the tree still standing-still living?


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## Rick Wade (May 27, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Represent life, when bad branches fall off?
> 
> When these branches fall off, is the tree still standing-still living?




I totally agree.  by shedding the dead branches the Tree is still standing without the dead weight the tree will grow stronger and straighter.

V/R

Rick


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## Zoran (May 27, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> But what f the student became disrespectful, rogue, dishonored the teacher?


 That student has still earned what they earned to that point. After that connection is severed, they can no longer earn anything from the teacher, but it does not invalidate what they have already earned.



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> A person may be removed from an organization, or remove themselves, however diplomas, belts, etc awarded when you were in good standing belong to you.
> 
> I had a discussion with a young man who was removed from a family tree and organization because he didn't agree with some "personal issues" the head instructor had. The instructor wanted everything back, and he asked my advice. I told him to tell his former instructor, to refund the eight years of lessons, belt promotions, and activity fees over that period, and you will return the belt and diplomas. He told me the instructor said, "But you already had the lessons." The young man said, "My point exactly." and walked away. He hasn't heard anything from his former instructor since.


  Good point and EXCELLENT advice. 

  Also another point. You don't *earn* rank from an organization. It is your instructor that awards you rank that you have *earned through training*. Oraganization can award rank according to their bylaws, without an instructor's signature and training. Those ranks are usually honorary or what I've some call "like rank". Those are a completely different animal.


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## 47MartialMan (May 27, 2005)

Yeah, I was just turning the table.

Someone told me this is what happened to Dillman and his teacher


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## Michael Billings (May 28, 2005)

I have seen both, the instructor not being claimed by the student, and the student not being "recognized" any more by his teacher.  To some extent that is why Associations and certificates exist.  You could choose to do the honorable thing and acknowledge the teacher or student as have been in your line of descent, or instructor.  As Kenpoist, and Black Belts, to some extent we do not talk about other's business.  Then again there may be a gossip monger in our midst.

 A certificate is a good indicator "you were there", although they can be forged, it is not necessarily commonplace to do so, especially if you live near a bona fide association school.  I left my instructor, but he acknowledges me as one of his Black Belts, and I have not taken him out of my line of descent (as I know others in his lineage have-not from his being a poor teacher).   Anyone who spent a significant amount of time instructing me gets credit, or in some cases blame.  I hope it is the same for my students, wherever they go.

 How about the high ranking black belt who has a criminal conviction - and it is a nasty one?  You want him out of your line, but just wanting that does not make it so.  I would stress that he/she was your instructor at one point in time (for good or ill), but you have been with someone else for the past XXX years who is also a major contributor to your lineage.

 Just my way of looking at it.
 -Michael


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## Simon Curran (May 28, 2005)

With regards to the specific removal of a person from a family tree, I can understand the points people have made in either direction, but I'm not really looking for ranks etc. to me it is ability that is my driving factor.

From personal experience; An executive decision was made in the club where I train to move from one organisation to another a couple of years ago for reasons I will not discuss on open forum.
Upon announcing our intent to move to the head of our previous organisation, our instructor was subjected to a verbal torrent, and a demand was made that we all return our belts/certificates of rank, to which my instructor replid we had earned and paid for the right to bear them.
The former organisation head then maintained that they belonged to him, but when offered an open invite to come and take them, oddly enough his demand receded somewhat...


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## 47MartialMan (May 28, 2005)

I, as far as to "physically retrieve" documets or rank, this is absurd. such things, like someone had mentioned, were "awards" granted upon abilities or goals accomplished.

However, erasing them from the "tree", may be acceptable if great dishonor had occured.


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## Seabrook (May 28, 2005)

There is someone I promoted to black belt a few years back, whom, after just a few months after the test, quit studying martial arts. This student had trained with me for 8 years prior to his black belt test. I was shocked that he disappeared in the smoke, but take him off my family tree....no. I tested and promoted him and he earned it at the time.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## 47MartialMan (May 28, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> There is someone I promoted to black belt a few years back, whom, after just a few months after the test, quit studying martial arts. This student had trained with me for 8 years prior to his black belt test. I was shocked that he disappeared in the smoke, but take him off my family tree....no. I tested and promoted him and he earned it at the time.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


But what if he openly disrespected you?

What if he did something criminal?

Would you keep him on the tree/lineage?

Of course, it is absurd to "take back" a rank.


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## evenflow1121 (May 28, 2005)

The family tree just means the guy you taught achieved a certain level under you, organization is a different matter. There are various reasons why people remove others from organizations however. If you taught someone and all of a sudden the guy is claiming a rank he does not have or is not teaching the system the correct way, has either watered it down, or has turned his or her school into a McDojo, I dont see those as invalid reasons. If I ever reach 4th degree and open up a school (this being many years down the line ofcourse) I sure as hell would not want one of my students opening up a studio and making it a bb factory, I would not want to be associated with a person like that. I do however, think some people are ousted because the system heads or founders have this "my way or the highway" attitude that falls short of authoritarianism, and then thats wrong.


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## tshadowchaser (May 28, 2005)

> or...
> * Next to the name of the person with a disclaimer
> For example
> Joe Black Belt *
> ...


 

If a student breaks from his parent organization but still has the respect to say he was trained by "mr. X" in " school XYZ' of the "qwe" association, then he is doing just that paying respect to his old teacher and organization. ( Thats better than making up some foolish lineage)

And if the teacher has recognized student "a" with rank I think he should still say " yes I trained him but he is no longer in this organization".


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## Bill Lear (May 28, 2005)

I'd say no matter what the situation is... former black belts should remain on family trees. That being said, a good way to clarify whether or not this person is in good standing or bad standing within your association or school is to indicate their status with a symbol (letter or number) next to their name. This way instructors can verify whether or not someone is who they say they are, and they can find out a little bit more about that someone with a simple phone call if they are so inclined.

Honesty is honorable, covering up the past isn't.

:asian:


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## 47MartialMan (May 28, 2005)

Honorable is not covering up the past?

Perhaps someone whom became dis-honorable to such a org should be removed from such honotrary tree/lineage.


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## dsp921 (May 29, 2005)

If at one point someone earns a spot on a family tree they belong there, always. If they eventually do something dishonorable, that doesn't change the fact they were once a student and earned rank. Put a * or some other designation indictating they are no longer associated with the teacher or organization. But present acts or statements can't undo the past.
That said, family trees are by no means the complete story. People get left off by mistake all the time. If an instructor has a couple hundred students it's tough to remember every single person when it comes time to write it all down. Family trees are a decent reference point but by no means a complete history of a system. I for one don't put a lot of weight to family trees.


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## Zoran (May 29, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Honorable is not covering up the past?
> 
> Perhaps someone whom became dis-honorable to such a org should be removed from such honotrary tree/lineage.


 Obviously you have something specific in mind. Why don't you tell us your story instead of repeating the same thing over and over again.


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## 47MartialMan (May 29, 2005)

dsp921 said:
			
		

> If at one point someone earns a spot on a family tree they belong there, always. If they eventually do something dishonorable, that doesn't change the fact they were once a student and earned rank. Put a * or some other designation indictating they are no longer associated with the teacher or organization. But present acts or statements can't undo the past.
> That said, family trees are by no means the complete story. People get left off by mistake all the time. If an instructor has a couple hundred students it's tough to remember every single person when it comes time to write it all down. Family trees are a decent reference point but by no means a complete history of a system. I for one don't put a lot of weight to family trees.


True, such one was a student and earned rank. However, part of being a student and earning rank is mentality, charecter, and discipline. If such a student does something dis-honorable, the fact that they were a student or have a rank seem astonishing if said student performs or does something so dishonorable.

I guess, if one is to look a a martial art tree as a family tree, then the member of any such tree cannot be removed.

However, a martial art tree is not rooted with family genetics (although some are) but its main source of nourishment is its values. When these values are disturbed by one member, like a doseased branch, should it not be removed to save the entire tree?


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## KenpoDave (May 29, 2005)

There is an ongoing, martial arts-wide debate about how old a person should be before being awarded a black belt.  The argument for older rather than younger always brings up the point that the achievement of black belt carries with it more than physical skill.  Things like maturity, honor, responsibility, character, loyalty, etc.

If an organization recognizes virtues beyond physical skill as part of "what a blackbelt is" then why should that rank not be revoked if a person ceases to demonstrate those virtues?

As far as asterisking their name on the tree, why not simply remove the dirty laundry rather than continue to air it publicly?  At the very least, those interested would have to go to the concerned parties to find out the gory details and it would cut down on E-Gossip and save bandwidth. :asian:


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## 47MartialMan (May 29, 2005)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> There is an ongoing, martial arts-wide debate about how old a person should be before being awarded a black belt. The argument for older rather than younger always brings up the point that the achievement of black belt carries with it more than physical skill. Things like maturity, honor, responsibility, character, loyalty, etc.
> 
> If an organization recognizes virtues beyond physical skill as part of "what a blackbelt is" then why should that rank not be revoked if a person ceases to demonstrate those virtues?
> 
> As far as asterisking their name on the tree, why not simply remove the dirty laundry rather than continue to air it publicly? At the very least, those interested would have to go to the concerned parties to find out the gory details and it would cut down on E-Gossip and save bandwidth. :asian:


Precisely, we hear in the news how a martial art teacher molested or raped someone. Imagine if that someone was part of your tree? Would you really keep his name there?


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## Seabrook (May 30, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> But what if he openly disrespected you?
> 
> What if he did something criminal?
> 
> ...


Good questions. I would keep him on the family tree. We ALL make mistakes in life; some people subsequently turn their life around for the good, others not.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## 47MartialMan (May 30, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Good questions. I would keep him on the family tree. We ALL make mistakes in life; some people subsequently turn their life around for the good, others not.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


And those who do not, those who turn very bad, would you keep them?

Imagine the top worse things that someone could do that will have you remove them. I mean WORSE.


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## Seabrook (May 30, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> And those who do not, those who turn very bad, would you keep them?
> 
> Imagine the top worse things that someone could do that will have you remove them. I mean WORSE.


I don't think I would remove anyone from my family tree, but I never say "never" in life. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## 47MartialMan (May 30, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I don't think I would remove anyone from my family tree, but I never say "never" in life.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


I mean what if the guy on your tree molested kids or teens?

Or worse molsted and killed a teen?


Would you still want the name of said person on your tree?


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## Sigung86 (May 30, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> I mean what if the guy on your tree molested kids or teens?
> 
> Or worse molsted and killed a teen?
> 
> ...




What if... What if... What if....  And the worst case scenarios.  Family trees, as they are currently used or defined are simply political tools, in my usually skewed estimation.  Beside that... If he was on your tree, he still is... You can change history, but you can not change fact.

Reason I went off the Tracy family tree?  Per a telecon with Al, 'You pissed a lot of guys off ... Go do your own thing".

After serious and considerable thinking, aaand no further guidance from above, the only things that I could think of was that I had managed to piss off Ted Sumner by posting on Ricardo Castillo's old forum in the negative, over his posting of the trash based Parker history (true or untrue), and I had posted over here on MT, that there were some Tracy stylists that thought That Tom Connor was a better martial artist than Al Tracy (true personal thoughts by people who were there, and not just an editorial thought on my part).  Ted Sumner had posted on his forum, rather imperiously, that he had talked to Al Tracy, and Al Tracy had never heard of me ...  That would be despite the special silk paper dipoma with gold script and an apparently, now questionable, serial number. 

Rather than anyone calling and clearing up, I managed to incur enough wrath and as I do not contribute in a monetary fashion to the Tracy Empire (I teach for free to some poor folks, not commercially, and only contribute in the purchase of tapes, or dipomas for myself), I was pretty easy to drop off.

I truly imagine there was more to it than that, as I can't imagine that I could piss off a whole bunch of people just being little old me, but no other directive, instruction, or scold was forthcoming.  

It was, in my opinion, wrong to be dropped off the family tree, particularly one that is the only tree that is in existence for the Tracy branch.... But... It is Al Tracy's website, ego and family tree.  It also seems that in his particular organization it is the iron fist of Tracy that runs whether you are in or out, or in good graces or not, or in the tree, or not.  There is no procedure for appeal, no procedure that is in place to either delete someone or to discipline them for sins, real or imagined.

Basically, I have no real dog in this hunt, as I have walked away from Kenpo.    The rank means nothing when it can be taken in the twinkling of any eye by someone who has an impulse.  It is only skill and knowledge that matter.  So, all the brouhaha over family tree really is much ado about nothing. Therefore, I began and continue to question the validity of any family tree.  Except for those already cast in stone, such as Ed Parker's.  Funny that people will even argue about that one, but they manage to do so.

Well, on to other and better things.  I am going to assume that the GAB and/or a few of the others will get this back to Ted and I may be put in a position to respond... ON the other hand, having existed as a RoKuDan in Tracy International, but no longer, I may be totally ignored by people who have already had their way with me.     

So, you see, it isn't always about raping and killing teenagers.  Sometimes it is as little a thing as thinking for yourself, and speaking your own mind.  That, appears to be the ultimate sin.  At least as near as I can figger.  :whip:


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## Sam (May 30, 2005)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> The rank means nothing when it can be taken in the twinkling of any eye by someone who has an impulse.





			
				Sigung86 said:
			
		

> It is only skill and knowledge that matter.


Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying - but these two comments seem to contradict each other. 

At first I had planned to disagree with your first statement, but my reasons were basically your second statement.

What are you trying to say?


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## 47MartialMan (May 30, 2005)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> What if... What if... What if.... And the worst case scenarios. Family trees, as they are currently used or defined are simply political tools, in my usually skewed estimation. Beside that... If he was on your tree, he still is... You can change history, but you can not change fact.


Ah. I see your position/opinion.

Yes, "trees" (likewise title/rank) can be political tools.

Yes, you can change a entry on the tree, but NOT history and not fact.

So your view on rank and "tree" is also onto thinking that they can be over-rated?


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## JAMJTX (Jun 1, 2005)

It is ethical, fair and done all the time.  In Japanese, the term for revoking rank is hamon.

Say Master Smith teaches Student Jones.  Jones is awarded a high rank and a teaching certificate.  Jones then sets up a McDojo using the highly respected credentials that he got from Master Smith, making Master Smith look like a fool.
So Master Smith revokes the rank and certification that he gave.  In this case it is a perfectly legit way for Master Smith to protect his own reputation and the integrity of his teaching.

Some times it os done soley for political reasons and some times perhaps commercial reasons.


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## 47MartialMan (Jun 2, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> It is ethical, fair and done all the time. In Japanese, the term for revoking rank is hamon.
> 
> Say Master Smith teaches Student Jones. Jones is awarded a high rank and a teaching certificate. Jones then sets up a McDojo using the highly respected credentials that he got from Master Smith, making Master Smith look like a fool.
> So Master Smith revokes the rank and certification that he gave. In this case it is a perfectly legit way for Master Smith to protect his own reputation and the integrity of his teaching.
> ...


Hmmnn, goes against some of the opinions of other posts here. Look over them and see.


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## Doc (Jun 2, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> It is ethical, fair and done all the time.  In Japanese, the term for revoking rank is hamon.


It may be ethical, fair, and done all the time in Japan, or in those in a Japanese Lineage that subscribe to that nonsense. In American Kenpo as Mr. Parker stated, "What's done is done. You can't change it." Mr. Parker fired, kicked out, ostracized, and wrote off a lot of very well known black belts on his family tree for many valid reasons. He lothed his own teachers "collaborative" partner Mitose, yet he is on the tree. He often said, "History should never be re-written, only explained." What "... is ethical, fair, and done all the time." in one culture has no bearing on another. In the Japanese Culture students could conceivably commit acceptable "hari kari" for bringing dishonor on their teacher, or do you pick and choose which part of the culture you find ok?


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## 47MartialMan (Jun 2, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> 1.) It may be ethical, fair, and done all the time in Japan, or in those in a Japanese Lineage that subscribe to that nonsense. In American Kenpo as Mr. Parker stated, "What's done is done. You can't change it." Mr. Parker fired, kicked out, ostracized, and wrote off a lot of very well known black belts on his family tree for many valid reasons. He lothed his own teachers "collaborative" partner Mitose, yet he is on the tree. He often said, "History should never be re-written, only explained." What "... is ethical, fair, and done all the time." in one culture has no bearing on another.
> 
> 2.)  In the Japanese Culture students could conceivably commit acceptable "hari kari" for bringing dishonor on their teacher, or do you pick and choose which part of the culture you find ok?


1.) Very interesting. So a tree cannot shed its rotten branches?

2.) Yes, many pick out thing from other cultures in accordance to their likes/fancy.


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## RRouuselot (Jun 2, 2005)

Zoran said:
			
		

> Obviously you have something specific in mind. Why don't you tell us your story instead of repeating the same thing over and over again.


   Because this is how he gets his jollies..he will throw out some extremely vague comments, questions, or imply something very vague just to start some controversy.


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## Zoran (Jun 2, 2005)

I agree 110% with Doc here.



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1.) Very interesting. So a tree cannot shed its rotten branches?


 Don't over use or abuse analogies. :whip: We are talking about what has been earned, not growing a maple. 

 So in your estimation, a black belt can be removed from an instructor's list because they dishonored their instructor? 

 Don't you think "dishonor" can be a bit subjective?

 Where do you draw the line?

 Explain how removing someone for some slight can be ethical or honorable for that matter?


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## 47MartialMan (Jun 2, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Because this is how he gets his jollies..he will throw out some extremely vague comments, questions, or imply something very vague just to start some controversy.


Sure(sarcasim)........someone else get theirs another way.

Vague? Just posting ponderance, DA, or searching for another opinion.

Speaking of starting controversy...per quote itself is a returned lash....


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## 47MartialMan (Jun 2, 2005)

Zoran said:
			
		

> I agree 110% with Doc here.
> 
> 
> 1.) Don't over use or abuse analogies. :whip: We are talking about what has been earned, not growing a maple.
> ...


1.) OK, I'll cut off some "sap"
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





2.) Depends on hoe severe it was. There were some interesting post on either side.

3.) Dishonor subjective to what? Lets bring Bruce Calkins into this per example. Could he or one of his instructors be cut of from a particular martial art tree for dishonor?

4.) Percisely. When opposing opinions sound good, it becomes a matter of opinion. According a certain menber here, my opinion doesnt count for anything.

5.) Do you mean by removing someone from a slight situation be ethical or honorable? Or is some dishonorable allow to ramain with honorable people?


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## JAMJTX (Jun 2, 2005)

I didn't kow there was only one opinion allowed.  Perhaps then just disable the reply function and make it an editorial board.

As for the "cultural" reference, I never heard of a karate student committing seppuku for dishonoring thier teacher.  This is one part of old Japanese culture that is also discouraged by the government and most people. So this analagy is kind of misplaced.

I still think that if someone is misusing the crdentials that they were awarded, then they can and should be revoked in order to protect the integrity of the art or the person who issued them.


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## bdparsons (Jun 2, 2005)

First, let me state that though I am part of a couple of family trees, I do not have a tree of my own. But when I do progress to the point that I have "my" tree, I'll do what everyone else does.

"My tree, My rules."

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## Kenpomachine (Jun 2, 2005)

Well, removing someone from a line shows more of the teacher than the student. If things go wrong it's like washing your hands. 

 You spend time before you get to black belt, and you are supposed to be acquainted with that person, so the instructor must know something about his student before endorsing him for the test.

  If it's for political reasons, well, I'm not speaking.


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## Zoran (Jun 2, 2005)

As usual, 47MartialMan has not answered any questions. 



> According a certain menber here, my opinion doesnt count for anything.


  I can now see how that happened. Good thing you disabled the bad rep points, otherwise you may go for the record.


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## Doc (Jun 2, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> I didn't kow there was only one opinion allowed.  Perhaps then just disable the reply function and make it an editorial board.


I see sir, so when I disagree with something I am not allowed to challenge YOUR opinion? May I suggest YOU disable the reply function if you disagree.


> As for the "cultural" reference, I never heard of a karate student committing seppuku for dishonoring thier teacher.  This is one part of old Japanese culture that is also discouraged by the government and most people. So this analagy is kind of misplaced.


You seem to take things quite literally. The analogy was simply an answer to your CULTURAL perspective that ALLOWS selectivity, and therefore you have CHOSEN to accept this particular tenent. Accordingly, even your perspective apparently is not written in stone according to you, "old Japanese culture, ... government and most people."


> I still think that if someone is misusing the crdentials that they were awarded, then they can and should be revoked in order to protect the integrity of the art or the person who issued them.


Well that's the difference. My personal integrity is only within my control, and is not mystically or intrinsically mated to the behavior of every student I have ever had. Most of us don't feel getting a black belt gives someone a "credential" endorsed by the awarding party. It may put them in your lineage, but is not a guarantee or warranty of ethical behavior in perpetuity.

 The mayor-elect of the City of Los Angeles went to UCLA Law School. He has taken and failed to pass the bar four times, and has engaged in questionable activities since entering politics that some disagree with.

 UCLA cannot and should not revoke his law degree. He was granted it, therefore it is his and the "shame" of the inability to pass the bar is his, and not a reflection of the impeccable reputation of the institution that granted the degree. If schools, universities, colleges, and yes-martial artists started removing everyone from their previous rolls that did something they subjectively disagreed with, there would be no point to having the distinction in the first place.

 I endorse the American academic system that separates passing the basic curriculum for a degree, from the awarding of a credential that actually does imply specific skills, and regulated behavior practices that is therefore revocable.

 When a student of mine is awarded a black belt, there is no implied ability to teach or understand the curriculum beyond that of any other student, nor (although it is unlikely) does it suggest that he would never rob a liquor store, use drugs, or cheat on a test. 

 Those who choose to represent the institution, myself, previous alumni, and teach, are awarded a separate document that is not only regulated, but must be renewed regularly to avoid expiration, and should behavior dictate it, is revocable by standards and opinion set forth by a board of credentials. 

 However, their place on the "roll" of those who participated, and passed the curriculum is part of a historical document and facts that, as my teacher insisted, can always be "explained" should their behavior warrant it. Nevertheless, history cannot be changed to suit someone else's subjective whims.

 The one black belt I have experienced this with will always be on my family tree as well as my teachers under me. All of his diplomas issued by my teacher and I have my signature on the instructor line, as well as my school code number on his diplomas. He is forever tied to us in that descending order whether He, or I, or anyone else likes it. He may not show up to the reunion, but he's on the tree, and I can "explain" why he's not there should I need to.

Just because Grandmaster Slick gave you a belt doesn't mean one day you'll be as good as he, or all students are equal to his other students in character or deed. In the American culture, a degree from a prestigious institution will get you an interview, but if you can't perform, you are fired just like the guy off the street. Your reputation isn't tied to a piece of paper or belt. That is only the beginning of what you MIGHT be.

 From all the Japanese terms, titles, and perspective I'm left to presume you subscribe to Japanese ideas of traditional martial arts protocol. Because the Japanese Culture of traditional martial arts is built around the concept of "do" or "way," lineage implies you are "doing" things correctly from that lineage as the lead instructor was handed down information from its progenitor, and therefore from that perspective you may have a point.

 The American Culture however, is results oriented and who your teacher was does not have as great an impact on your students as you do. Your teacher may have been the grand poo bah, but if you are not a good teacher and do not deliver to your students, it will not matter whom your teacher was.

 In Ed Parker's West Los Angeles School, he understood that fact very well. When he relieved the head instructor from his position, he immediately moved into the school to keep the students, until he could assign another instructor who students would have faith in and trust. Once that was done, after a fashion he was no longer with us. The next person in charge didn't understand that, and against counsel, fired the instructor he had installed. They mistakenly believed that because the 'Grandmaster's" name was still on the school, that students would have some loyalty to him. Unfortunately, they were wrong, and students followed the now "fired" instructor to a new location and he has flourished ever since. The original location has been closed for years.

 Some Asian Culture mandates may be fine in traditional Japanese Arts for those who subscribe to them, but to suggest to the rest of the world that is the only way would be a mistake. Especially since Ed Parker's most recent martial arts lineage is American-Chinese. For those who subscribe to your perspective, I say that's fine, but in America especially in the commercial arena you seem to have chosen, it is a huge contradiction sir.


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## Sam (Jun 2, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> According a certain menber here, my opinion doesnt count for anything.


Actually, I think that's most members.

(sorry, I couldnt help it)


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## KenpoDave (Jun 3, 2005)

bdparsons said:
			
		

> First, let me state that though I am part of a couple of family trees, I do not have a tree of my own. But when I do progress to the point that I have "my" tree, I'll do what everyone else does.
> 
> "My tree, My rules."
> 
> ...



The force is strong with this one.


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## OC Kid (Jun 6, 2005)

In the system I recieved my rank in , they would remove someone from the tree for doing things that disgrace the system, such as going to jail ect..

They do (which i disagree with) will note on the tree that someone is no longer with the system if they find out they are training under or teaching a different system. I dont know how to feel about that....


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## Rick Wade (Jun 11, 2005)

OK after alot of thought and research I think I finally found a situation where at least I personally would be compelled to remove a person from my family tree.  http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22385&page=1&pp=15 

V/R

Rick


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