# The McDojo List



## Rainman (Aug 30, 2002)

To All,

Please list the schools in your surounding areas that have questionable reputations.  I have 2 to begin with in the Seattle-Tacoma area

1.  Temple Kung Fu- Des Moines WA- Non-contact and they move like snails- cult like atmosphere. 
2.  Northwest Kenpo- Kent WA.   Pot Heads.  (Former NWKA)

Depending on Feedback if everyone is interested we can all begin to compile lists of all styles who is skilled and who is not.   Maybe even get a dojo directory started on this site for reputable and disreputable schools.

:asian:


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## 7starmantis (Aug 30, 2002)

I've heard alot about this Temple Kung Fu. By what standars are we saying something is a McDojo?


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## J-kid (Aug 30, 2002)

Hey rainman i agree about temple kung fu when i looked at there school it was a rip OFF big time.  But i need reason for NW kenpo .  WHy are you callin them a rip off [please explain.  your friend JUdo-kid.


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## Rainman (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *I would be careful naming names of ireputable dojo's. It comes down to personal opinion and defimation of character comes to mind. *



This is true-  But without our help no one will be the wiser.   That is one thing that really bothers me about business in the martial arts.   Government can't police us- only we can.   Can't make an association because that will be corruptable.   As individuals we can speak up about things we have seen.   Is it worth going to court over?    For me yes.  The mat is a sacred place.   

People make mistakes that is life.   Nobody has to be perfect in their conduct but reputations are earned.   They are useful but only if known on a wide scale good or bad.


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## chufeng (Aug 30, 2002)

Rainman,

Go easy...you are setting yourself up for a law-suit.
Calling anyone a "pothead" without first-hand knowledge could cost you dearly.

I agree that we police ourselves...but not by posting a "list" of "McDojos."

We must simply present OUR art as it was intended to be presented...no boasts, no challenges (although you might have to defend against a challenger), no bad-mouthing other systems. A good martial art will stand on its own merit...
Their are those who are less interested in promoting DECENT martial arts and more interested in turning a buck or creating a name for themselves...but in the end, they will be forgotten.

:asian:
chufeng

ps: you coming tomorrow?


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> *Rainman,
> 
> ...


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## Rainman (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> *Rainman,
> 
> ...



I have first hand knowledge.   The scrary part is I know way more-that was mild.    I will take your advice and stop here though.

Definitely... Can't wait!

:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 30, 2002)

The legal side can be a royal pain.  I've been in many schools that I consider a 'mcdojo'... in one case it honestly wasn't the instructors fault.  He was just teaching what/how he had been taught and didn't know better.  When confronted with things, he has since gone a long way towards 'becoming legit'.  Is his school still a 'mcdojo'?  Yes, in many ways.  

If we're going to have a good discussion of mcdojos, I have to ask for a few limitations.  This covers my *** on the legal side of things.

If you've had a bad experience with a school/instructor, please post it in the -bad budo- forum. We ask that you only post based on personal experience or verifiable reference, not 'i heard from a friend'.   Police records and newspaper articles make a very good reference.  

Perhaps a better angle would be to discuss what we think is a -good- school, and what makes a bad school.  This sets up a nice check list on how to tell for yourself what type of school it is.  Also, do a search here on 'mcdojo' and check out the threads that come up.  I know we've had a good discussion or 2 in the past on it, and 1 of the threads is being worked on for addition to our FAQ.

:asian:


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## MartialArtist (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *To All,
> 
> ...


I used to live in Vancouver, pretty close to Tacoma.

Most the dojos there were McDojos.  There was one, the leader of the school was the only one who didn't call himself a master as he knows that a master has to be at least an 8th degree black belt and he is a 6th.  He is the son of one of the founders of Moo Duk Kwan I think, and is the younger brother of a famed military TKD/hapkido practitioner.  He has gotten all his belts the TRADITIONAL way in Seoul which is MUCH and I stress MUCH harder than it is in the West.  One mistake, one little variation on a technique which can determine the outcome of the fight, would make you ineligible to pass.  Not to mention the amount of conditioning and mental training he went through.

Most the other schools are 3rd, 4th, 5th degrees who all got their belts in McDojos in 8 years or less.


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## MartialArtist (Aug 30, 2002)

How do I know the schools are McDojos?

The instructor is a self-proclaimed master and is 20-40 years old yet doesn't do any of the drills or shows them how and/or just does fancy kicks to woo the crowd.  He never spars (although masters don't have to) but a McDojo "master" would say, "no, no, no, you're doing it all wrong.  You're supposed to do a triple spin kick instead of a roundhouse" yet don't show you how or why.

You achieve a new rank every month.  And tests costs $200.  Everyone passes, no matter how unprepared they are.

You don't learn how to protect yourself, you learn how to win trophies...  There is an exception, that is unless you want to compete in tournaments which is fine, but self-defense is self-defense, sport is sport.

No hard conditioning...

The list goes on.


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## Hollywood1340 (Aug 30, 2002)

Kiddies,
 I fell this this thread is setting up for disaster. I suggest we end it now. We are Martial Artists and should act accordingly.
'Nuff said.


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## MartialArtist (Aug 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> 
> *Kiddies,
> I fell this this thread is setting up for disaster. I suggest we end it now. We are Martial Artists and should act accordingly.
> 'Nuff said. *


Good attitude, but I think we should poke a little fun at the people who are giving the martial arts a bad image, from martial artists have no self-control to martial arts are worthless in a street fight and so on.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 31, 2002)

I would be careful naming names of ireputable dojo's. It comes down to personal opinion and defimation of character comes to mind. Its a pain in the ***, but we don't want to do anything to get Kaith into crap, or this board either.



7sm:asian:


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## Hollywood1340 (Aug 31, 2002)

> Good attitude, but I think we should poke a little fun at the people who are giving the martial arts a bad image, from martial artists have no self-control to martial arts are worthless in a street fight and so on.


As martial artist's poking fun we ourselves give the MA's a bad name. Think about it.
Cheers


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## MartialArtist (Aug 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> 
> *
> As martial artist's poking fun we ourselves give the MA's a bad name. Think about it.
> Cheers *


I think that's way too conservative, when is it wrong to discuss about people who are not even martial artists, don't follow the code, don't train hard, but consider themselves as the baddest men on earth.  If it is wrong, then the Aikido master who said he has never seen any style of kung fu to Bruce Lee are all  but it really isn't the case.  That's just MO, I don't think we should list schools, but talking about McDojos is all right with me.


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## Shinzu (Sep 1, 2002)

IMHO the true martial artists will stand while the fakes shall fall.

i don't believe in "bashing others", even if they are a McDojo.

sure they might not be as good as you or your school and they might not be reputable, but the public will see and decide for themselves.

people these days are not so blind anymore.  they can read through the dollar signs.  that's why the true MA's will survive.

i have no problems talking about McDojo's or my experiences, but i will not say any names of schools or people.  

after all like someone said before, some teachers are just doing things how they were taught.  it's always easy to poke fun at what's wrong, but try looking inside your yourself to see if your perfect.

as someone said to me once.."constantly examine yourself, so you have no time to critisize others." 

remember we are the reputable martial artists, let's start acting as such.


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## Chronuss (Sep 2, 2002)

I've had an experience with a McDojo.  the TKD..."school" I obtained my black belt in was definitely one.  a school where the so called "head master" goes from 5th dan to 8th dan in the time it took me to get my first is quite strange, wouldn't you say? and the way these people teach is ridiculous.  theoretically, if I had stayed and "trained" to get my second dan, all I would've had to do was learn three katas...personally, I don't think that teaches squat in order to obtain a second dan.  there should more to learn in order obtain higher ranks other than just learning how to dance pretty.


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## kenposcum (Sep 4, 2002)

I can understand the "don't list McDojos" argument from several points:
1) True, you are defenseless if someone wants to holler "McDojo!" at you from behond the safety of a keyboard;
2) Legally, I suppose slander could be an issue...although we could be instrumental in making "McDojo" an actual legal term(ha ha);
3) Just because of opinions and/or personal preference, we may be tempted to label a school a McDojo if their focus is less MARTIAL art and more martial ART;
4) We don't want to hurt anyone's feelings now, do we?

That having been said, I see no real problem with a McDojo list per se, as long as these lists were based on bonafide first hand accounts, and not hearsay, "my instructor's sister's brother-in-law said..." type stuff.

:soapbox: Let's face it, there are an AWFUL lot of charlatans and swindlers stalking the underbelly of the martial arts, preying on those individuals who truly need the benefits of "real" martial arts 
(and it's a sad world when I need to make that distinction).  Exponentially raising testing fees, mandatory "keep your rank" fees, hidden charges ("Well, Bill, you have to go to this tournament, and you have to buy the wood you break from me at an inflated price, and you have to buy this t-shirt, did I mention that when you win, you'll have to buy your trophy too...")
Merely making a list of warning signs might not be enough, particularly when you consider the charisma and salesmanship of some of these wretches.  Look at Chung Moo Quan!  I mean, come on!  Admittedly, some people are just cult members waiting to happen, but doesn't that make awareness and prevention all the more important?  And isn't there a certain amount of responsibility we have to make sure people don't get misled into believing they can take out armies of miscreants, action-hero style?  How many McDojo-trained martial artists have been badly injured due to unrealistic apperception of their own abilities?  What about the karate instructor that David Allan Coe beat up for heckling him?  His life was ruined(he owned a McDojo of his own, which went under when it was discovered that a country musician beat him up) because of McDojo training!

These places make us all look bad.  These McDojos hurt the martial arts.

As long as we stick to reporting fact and can remain coolly objective, I see no problem with "The McDojo List."  Bear in mind, we should encourage people to visit these schools and to decide for themselves (see #3 above).  However, armed with the knowledge of WHAT to look for and beware of, particular gripes with the particular school, we would be equipping the potential truth-seeker to avoid scams, falsehoods, swindles, brainwashing, and perhaps even death by inferior instruction.

This is definitely something we should talk about more.  Ultimately, a "McDojo List" would be the business of the MartialTalk.com administrators and moderators.  Thank you, anybody who bothered to read all that.
:asian:


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## Jay Bell (Sep 4, 2002)

Temple Fraud


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## 7starmantis (Sep 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenposcum _
> 
> That having been said, I see no real problem with a McDojo list per se, as long as these lists were based on bonafide first hand accounts, and not hearsay, "my instructor's sister's brother-in-law said..." type stuff.
> [/B]



Only one problem with first hand reporting here: Subjective


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## Rainman (Sep 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *
> 
> Only one problem with first hand reporting here: Subjective *



Basics are basics nothing subjective about them.  You can fight or you can't- nothing subjective about that either.  



> i don't believe in "bashing others", even if they are a McDojo.



Sure stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away.   It will not- otherwise this conversation would not exist.



> As long as we stick to reporting fact and can remain coolly objective, I see no problem with "The McDojo List." Bear in mind, we should encourage people to visit these schools and to decide for themselves (see #3 above). However, armed with the knowledge of WHAT to look for and beware of, particular gripes with the particular school, we would be equipping the potential truth-seeker to avoid scams, falsehoods, swindles, brainwashing, and perhaps even death by inferior instruction.



Yes, I agree.   Turn the lights on and watch the roaches scatter.


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## jkn75 (Sep 4, 2002)

:soapbox:

Legally, the Internet is very new and the old laws of defamation, slander and libel need to absorb this new technology. Also, you have to remember that most judges are rich, old white men so they don't really even understand the Internet. So this area of the law is still up in the air, but you must always cover your butt. 

Let me hop off:

I think that posting the factors that people think make a McDojo is OK. What makes a McDojo is a matter of personal opinion, but the purpose of this site (in my opinion) is to help educate people about martial arts and promote discussion about them. 

If listing some of things to look for helps someone new to the martial arts avoid a McDojo, its worth it.


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## J-kid (Sep 4, 2002)

We as Martial artist need to help the public to under stand that mcdojos are out there.  (we can ether Stand together or sin in silence).  Its your choice i hope you help the fight to get reed of the deise called mcdojos.  Its just like a open Wound if not treated it will fester and become a bigger problem,  LET US WORK TOGETHER AS THE BANDAID And Stop the mcdojos.  My brothers and sisters!!!!!:revenge:


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## chufeng (Sep 4, 2002)

I agree that a list of "red flags" to help identify what a McDojo is is a good idea.

 I agree that IF you list the facts that happened to you without adding in your impressions (let the facts speak for themselves) you can list a particular school...for example, "I went to xxx school and this is what happened..."

 I don't think it is safe practice to "defame, slander, or libel" any school...as I said, let the facts speak for themselves...and if someone would like to comment on the facts, after they've been posted, then that is just talk and probably safe...

Just remember that there is NO erasing electronic communication...once you send it, it lives forever.

:asian:
chufeng


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## Nightingale (Sep 5, 2002)

hmmm.... what about setting up another section on MT?

I would suggest setting up a "Dojo Experiences" section, where people can post stuff, good or bad.  Let people rate their experiences on a scale of one to ten, and assign the dojo a number, such as "Joe Smith's Kenpo Karate" was rated 8/10 by visitors to this board.

have categories by style, and topics of dojo names. 

that way, people can add a dojo with their reasoning behind it, and anyone could respond to add additional opinions, positive or negative.

stating your opinion about someone or something isn't libel or slander.  so long as you precede your comments with "I think" or "I believe" you're probably okay, because those phrases flag a comment as an opinion.  for the record:  slander is spoken word defamation, libel is printed or broadcast defamation.


quote:
"Libel" involves the publishing of a falsehood that harms someone. Slander is the same doctrine applied to the spoken word. Collectively, they are referred to as "defamation". Both are a matter of state laws, which usually (not always) require that the falsehood be intentional.

In New York Times v. Sullivan, the Supreme Court held that the First Amendment requires that, before a public official can recover damages for a defamatory statement, he must prove it was made with "actual malice", even if state laws otherwise allow recovery for negligent defamation. The Court has since expanded this to cover not only public officials but "public figures", including individuals who involve themselves in controversies.

endquote

the owner of a dojo could be considered as a public figure, because he, in essence, is marketing himself as an instructor.  This is kind of a grey area, though, so my advice would be to just talk about the dojo in general and not target a specific person. see below...

quote:

helpful tips:
Avoid the impression of malice. 

State the facts, and then state your opinion separately. This keeps things clear in your mind. 

All wrong: "My neighbor John Smith is a stinking lush." This is wildly defamatory: an unproven, malicious ("stinking" and "lush" instead of "alcoholic") statement about a private individual. 

Getting better: "Governor Smith consumed 14 glasses of whiskey last night at The Watering Hole Bar. In my opinion he's an alcoholic." The proof is a bit hazy -- getting drunk once does not prove alcoholism -- but a governor is a public figure with less protection than John Smith, you have clearly separated fact from opinion, and there is no particular evidence of malice. 

Pretty safe: "Governor Smith consumed 14 glasses of whiskey last night at The Watering Hole Bar. I wouldn't be surprised to learn he's an alcoholic." This is entirely fact, with no clear evidence of malice, about a public figure. 

What defamation is not.
 Generally, a statement made about an undefinable group of people or organizations cannot be defamation. Take, "Real estate agents are crooks." It's defamatory enough, but there is no identifiable victim. 

"Most of the agents at Smith Real Estate Company are crooks" is getting dicier, but it is still hard to define the victim. 

"Smith Real Estate Company is a crooked company." Wham! You have a victim: Smith Real Estate Company. 

endquote

so basically, you can phrase things like this:

"(insert name of mcdojo) charges (insert exact amount) for classes.
they charge (insert exact amount) for belt tests.
on the average, students reach black belt in one year

in my opinion, (mcdojo) is a McDojo because of these reasons.  Personally, I do not feel that this school offers a quality martial arts education"

that, you can get away with.

saying "(mcdojo) is a mcdojo because the instructor is a pothead and overcharges students to spend all the monthly fee money on dope, and he lets people walk in and buy blackbelts" is libelous, because you're being malicious, and you can't prove it.


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## jkn75 (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *
> the owner of a dojo could be considered as a public figure, because he, in essence, is marketing himself as an instructor.  This is kind of a grey area, though, so my advice would be to just talk about the dojo in general and not target a specific person. *



Public figure- a person who has achieved fame or notoriety or who has voluntarily become involved in a public controversy. A public figure or public official(elected) suing for defamation must prove that the defendant acted with actual malice.

Limited purpose public figure- a person who, having become involved in a particular public issue, has achieved fame or notoriety  in relation to that particular issue. 

actual malice-Knowledge(by the person who utters or publishes a defamatory statement)  that a statement is false, or reckless disregard about whether the statement is true. 

Those definitions are from Black's Law Dictionary, 7th Edition.

But in the end what does it all mean? Lawyers make too much money for arguing over little crap like this.
Again always cover your butt.


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