# Just a good video I found on youtube.



## jeff_hasbrouck (Feb 22, 2013)

So this feller is pretty darn good in my opinion. He is sticking to the centerline like a beast, he is always going forward and he is actually doing chi-sau instead of beating up his student lol.

I just figured this was worth posting! Comment if you like, but most of all enjoy the show 


All the best,

Jeff


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## K-man (Feb 22, 2013)

Thank you. I did enjoy it.    :asian:


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## geezer (Feb 22, 2013)

Jeff, good find. Thanks for posting this. I especially like the fluid whole body dynamic rather than just trying to score shots, or that jerky start-stop-start-stop approach to chi-sau you often see.


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## Argus (Feb 23, 2013)

I don't know about their philosophy or meditation, but their chisau looks really good. I like how they are close enough that they can attack, and they're not just playing with the hands. Also, you can see "lat sau jik chung" happening very well; their hands are always chasing center, and fill the gap immediately when it appears. It looks a lot like what I've seen of the way the Wong Shun Leung guys practice, which I like a lot.

I'm curious what kind of distance different lineages practice at. Ip Ching is big on lop-sau and pivoting, so in my lineage we tend to roll a bit further out most of the time - something I don't really like, to be honest.


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## mook jong man (Feb 23, 2013)

Good stuff , those dudes are super relaxed.
No brute strength used at all , just let the angles do all the work.
We should all be striving to be like that.


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## Danny T (Feb 23, 2013)

Very nice. Very relaxed and the usage of the whole body as a unit is very good as well as creating angles and controlling the lines. The only thing I see a bit more than I like is the actual 'pulling'. It appears to be a grabbing of the arms rather than simple directing through the attachment, breath control, and sinking. However, overall is the best I've seen on any video. Great find!


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 23, 2013)

Very, very nice.  I'm not a Wing Chun guy, but I see plenty of stuff I could learn from these guys.  Excellent use of angles.  I see lots of WC demos where I doubt the practitioners could pull off their moves on someone who wasn't playing the same game as they were.  In this case I can see the general applicability of their skills.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 23, 2013)

Very nice thank you for posting that


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## Sukerkin (Feb 23, 2013)

That was very interesting to watch.  

Without rancour, I am not at all sure that I see how it would be of use against someone in a fight in the pub tho'.  I can see the skill and see the flow of counters, evades, deflections and ripostes but I catch myself thinking that it is a case of an art evolving in such a way that it is best suited to dealing with opponents who are using the same art.

What is it that I am failing to understand, for I am sure that the fault in 'not seeing' lies with the viewer rather than the practitioner .


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## K-man (Feb 23, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> I am not at all sure that I see how it would be of use against someone in a fight in the pub tho'.  I can see the skill and see the flow of counters, evades, deflections and ripostes but I catch myself thinking that it is a case of an art evolving in such a way that it is best suited to dealing with opponents who are using the same art.


I hadn't paid much attention to that type of training until about six or seven years ago when I was researching Tegumi. From learning from WC practitioners on MT I started introducing it into my karate classes.  Now all our kumite begins from a hands touching scenario.   

WRT the pub situation see if you think this could work. Someone is arcing up and started to crowd your space. Your hands are up in a non threatening fence as you try to cool the situation. The aggressor comes closer with his hands up ready to push or hit. You gently place your hands on his as you say you want no trouble. He either calms down or launches at you but from that position you can control his arms. If he pulls back to punch, you sense the tension in his arm before he actually can physically move and you can strike before he even prepares to strike.  And, any of the Chi Sau moves or deflections occur in a fraction of a second as you take control before you hit.  One of my guys does boxing as a cross train. He tried it on a boxer who had fought professionally and the guy initially didn't know what to do.     :asian:


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## yak sao (Feb 23, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> That was very interesting to watch.
> 
> Without rancour, I am not at all sure that I see how it would be of use against someone in a fight in the pub tho'.  I can see the skill and see the flow of counters, evades, deflections and ripostes but I catch myself thinking that it is a case of an art evolving in such a way that it is best suited to dealing with opponents who are using the same art.
> 
> What is it that I am failing to understand, for I am sure that the fault in 'not seeing' lies with the viewer rather than the practitioner .




Fair question. If you look at chi sau and see it done simply for the sake of chi sau, then it may seem pointless from the outside looking in.
The goal of the WC fighter is to bridge the gap between him and his opponent, forming a bridge with his arms ( or legs) If no resistance is met, then we would continuously strike until the threat is neutralized.
 That's the ideal situation, a skilled fighter is going to present obstacles between your fists and his face.
Chi sau allows the WC fighter to navigate through his opponent's defenses by sense of touch, and strike his openings, and/or feel the intentions of the opponent as he tries to strike us.
Like sparring, chi sau can be practiced at various levels of intensity. What is being shown here is a less intense example.

BTW, great chi sau. Thanks for posting this.


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## mook jong man (Feb 23, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> That was very interesting to watch.
> 
> Without rancour, I am not at all sure that I see how it would be of use against someone in a fight in the pub tho'.  I can see the skill and see the flow of counters, evades, deflections and ripostes but I catch myself thinking that it is a case of an art evolving in such a way that it is best suited to dealing with opponents who are using the same art.
> 
> What is it that I am failing to understand, for I am sure that the fault in 'not seeing' lies with the viewer rather than the practitioner .



What you are seeing is both people fighting for the centerline and searching for gaps in the opponents defence , or trying to make gaps in the opponents defence via trapping.

When the individuals are close to the same skill level , each attack can be countered by the other and so on and so on.
A bit like two soccer teams that are both good and can't score a goal against each other.

However , when you come up against somebody without a clue in defending their centerline and have no sensitivity , then the gaps are already there and doesn't take much difficulty to get through.
At that point it is hammer time and you just keep hitting them  until they go down.


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## Argus (Feb 23, 2013)

I think a good explanation, which might shed some light on what chisau is all about, is that we are always chasing center. It may look like we're just playing with the hands, but we are always attacking the opponent's center, even when we're deflecting and defending our own. Someone who does not know how to defend his center will get hit often if he lets the WC practitioner get within "chisau range." It's only when he does know how to defend his center that you get the kind of fancy flow of chisau that you see in the video.

Every art is specialized, and operates best in the situation which it's suited to. I think more often than not, the ineffectiveness of a practitioner of a particular style, or even a large percentage of said practitioners, results from them misusing their art, and trying to just "do whatever they want with it," if you will. WC is meant for close-quarters combat; that's what it's good at, and that's what we're training when we do chisau. But most people are more acquainted with a boxing / kick boxing scenario, where both parties are _actively trying to stay out of contact_, and jumping in and out of range. If you view WC, or chisau with the intent of fighting like that, it certainly isn't effective.


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## hunt1 (Feb 24, 2013)

Wing Chun comes with instructions , the Kuen Kuit. The flow is nice but the actual wing chun skill is average. Many Kuit are clearly violated


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## K-man (Feb 24, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> Wing Chun comes with instructions , the Kuen Kuit. The flow is nice but the actual wing chun skill is average. Many Kuit are clearly violated


I am not WC, so I have limited understanding of Kuen Kuit, but I would be interested if you could elaborate on what rules you consider violated and why.    :asian:


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Feb 24, 2013)

Argus said:


> I don't know about their philosophy or meditation, but their chisau looks really good. I like how they are close enough that they can attack, and they're not just playing with the hands. Also, you can see "lat sau jik chung" happening very well; their hands are always chasing center, and fill the gap immediately when it appears. It looks a lot like what I've seen of the way the Wong Shun Leung guys practice, which I like a lot.
> 
> I'm curious what kind of distance different lineages practice at. Ip Ching is big on lop-sau and pivoting, so in my lineage we tend to roll a bit further out most of the time - something I don't really like, to be honest.




Honestly I'm not big on the Ip brothers WC. But they make it work for them. In the Leung Ting version, we think that they lift their elbows too high, which invites a lot of unwanted attention to your elbow, which usually results in a unfriendly arm manipulation lol.

In my opinion, the best thing you can do is stop doing chi-sau as much and really incorporate more lat-sau. That way you aren't stuck in the mid/close range. In lat-sau you should be going through all five ranges.

Chi-sau has a time and a place, but it isn't the end all be all.

And you are correct sir, they are making that center line look like a war-zone!


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Feb 24, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> That was very interesting to watch.
> 
> Without rancour, I am not at all sure that I see how it would be of use against someone in a fight in the pub tho'.  I can see the skill and see the flow of counters, evades, deflections and ripostes but I catch myself thinking that it is a case of an art evolving in such a way that it is best suited to dealing with opponents who are using the same art.
> 
> What is it that I am failing to understand, for I am sure that the fault in 'not seeing' lies with the viewer rather than the practitioner .



Sukerkin,

I think the part you would be missing for the "practical application in the "pub"", would be our Lat-sau programs. Lat-sau is "free-handed-fighting". Chi-sau is just to develop your reactions and anti-synaptic reflexes... or "tactile responses". Many WT/WC/VC/VT folks utilize chi-sau (rolling arms/sticky arms) almost to a fault. They forget this is just a training module. The actual "bones to the face" material is in the Lat-sau. But a keen observation on that sir.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Feb 24, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> Wing Chun comes with instructions , the Kuen Kuit. The flow is nice but the actual wing chun skill is average. Many Kuit are clearly violated



Well thanks for the insult followed by a concept which i've never heard of. Mind explaining "Kuit" for me, as I've been training WT for 10 years and have no clue what your talking about. lol


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## Argus (Feb 24, 2013)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Well thanks for the insult followed by a concept which i've never heard of. Mind explaining "Kuit" for me, as I've been training WT for 10 years and have no clue what your talking about. lol



"Loi Lau, Hoi Sung; Lat Sau Jik Chung" - the phrase that I'm sure every WC practitioner is (or should be) familiar with is a Kuen Kuit, or saying. There's quite a few that give good insights on the system and describe what it is about. I am curious which ones hunt1 is referring to though when he claims that they many of them are being violated.


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## Danny T (Feb 25, 2013)

> "Loi Lau, Hoi Sung; Lat Sau Jik Chung" - the phrase that I'm sure every WC practitioner is (or should be) familiar with is a Kuen Kuit, or saying.


"Receive what comes; Stay with what goes; Follow through as it retreats"


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## geezer (Feb 25, 2013)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Well thanks for the insult followed by a concept which i've never heard of. Mind explaining "Kuit" for me, as I've been training WT for 10 years and have no clue what your talking about. lol



Jeff, the _kuen kuit_ or "fist-sayings" are traditional rhyming couplets that express the essence of WC teachings. There are many shared kuit between the branches, and others that are specific to particular lineages. In the WT branch many instructors don't go around quoting a lot of esoteric "kuit" since they can be "just so many words". And just like techniques, they can be misunderstood and mis-applied. Still they are part of our tradition, and they can be useful reminders of how to integate our core concepts. Leung Ting just called them "mottos" in his books. For example, check out the "mottos" section in his little _Siu Nim Tau_ book. 

Now I can almost hear you saying, "Oh yeah, so _that's_ what you're talking about! _Of course I know that stuff". 

_I think most of us WT guys didn't worry too much about all the Cantonese terms for techniques, history and so forth. LT put a lot more emphasis on getting us to do it right than on trying to teach us Cantonese. Still get a Chinese guy to coach you on how to say that key motto: _Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung. _Not only does it encapsulate the essence of WC/WT/VT, but it sounds _soooo cool!_


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## geezer (Feb 25, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> That was very interesting to watch.
> 
> Without rancour, I am not at all sure that I see how it would be of use against someone in a fight in the pub tho'. I can see the skill and see the flow of counters, evades, deflections and ripostes but I catch myself thinking that it is a case of an art evolving in such a way that it is best suited to dealing with opponents who are using the same art...



These are the exactly kinds of honest questions that need to be asked if training is to be meaningful. Personally, I really liked K-Man's response. After reading that, I went back and looked at a videoclip of Geoff Thompson explaining "the fence". In that context, the skill set that chi-sau trains seems very useful to me.

Watch toward the end of this clip how the fence is used to control distance and position of an aggressor. IMO this is what chi-sau would be like in the real world apart from training.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 25, 2013)

K-man said:


> I hadn't paid much attention to that type of training until about six or seven years ago when I was researching Tegumi. From learning from WC practitioners on MT I started introducing it into my karate classes. Now all our kumite begins from a hands touching scenario.
> 
> WRT the pub situation see if you think this could work. Someone is arcing up and started to crowd your space. Your hands are up in a non threatening fence as you try to cool the situation. The aggressor comes closer with his hands up ready to push or hit. You gently place your hands on his as you say you want no trouble. He either calms down or launches at you but from that position you can control his arms. If he pulls back to punch, you sense the tension in his arm before he actually can physically move and you can strike before he even prepares to strike. And, any of the Chi Sau moves or deflections occur in a fraction of a second as you take control before you hit. One of my guys does boxing as a cross train. He tried it on a boxer who had fought professionally and the guy initially didn't know what to do. :asian:



Wait a minutethat sound EXACTLY like the Jun Fan I trained.... :hmm: you'd think it came from Wing Chun


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## hunt1 (Feb 25, 2013)

Not an insult just a statement of fact from my pov.  I tend to be direct don't really have the time to play around.  Kuit are the wing chun instruction manual. You have probably heard them or know them even if you don't identify them as such.

 The first thing everyone is taught is basic elbow position. Everyone has been taught 1 to 1.5 fist lengths from the chest. If not raise your hand. Look at the chi sau. Totally violates this most basic concept, brings elbows back to chest and even to his side. Only because he is playing a game with a student does he get away with this. You do not ever bring the opponents hand back to your chest. Do this with a non compliant person and you should get a good smack every time.

He pulls with his arms. you do not pull with your arms. Another basic thing. Even Leung Ting, I use him since this form tends to be a LT love fest at times, makes a big point of teaching that you pull will the body not the arms.

 So first 3 violations of basic wing chun; in proper elbow position, brings opponents arm into his own body, Pulls with arms not with his body. There are many more  things that could be pointed out but this is enough for now.


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## K-man (Feb 25, 2013)

geezer said:


> These are the exactly kinds of honest questions that need to be asked if training is to be meaningful. Personally, I really liked K-Man's response. After reading that, I went back and looked at a videoclip of Geoff Thompson explaining "the fence". In that context, the skill set that chi-sau trains seems very useful to me.
> 
> Watch toward the end of this clip how the fence is used to control distance and position of an aggressor. IMO this is what chi-sau would be like in the real world apart from training.


One of the things I like about MT, apart from the obvious friendships that develop regardless that most of us have never met, is the little things that add to our own skill set, even if it is just a reference that we can take away and explore. I have incorporated a number of things into my training as a result of MT discussions.  

Interesting to me in this clip was reference to Chuck Norris and Richard Norton.  Richard is a friend and I have attended several of his seminars. He teaches a version of 'the fence' and he talks about 'outside 90'. What that means is that if the angle of the arm at the elbow is greater than 90 degrees, you virtually have the aikido 'unbendable arm' which will keep your attacker out for long enough to allow you to hit him. If your arm is less than 90 degrees, 'inside 90', it will collapse as he comes in.

Thanks for reminding me of Geoff's tape. I have it but haven't watched it for about 10 years. I must have another look.  :asian:


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## geezer (Feb 25, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> Not an insult just a statement of fact from my pov.  I tend to be direct don't really have the time to play around.  Kuit are the wing chun instruction manual. You have probably heard them or know them even if you don't identify them as such.



 "Instruction manual"? Yeah, I guess so, in an archaic and often enigmatic way, But like just like the modern manuals and DVDs, each branch has their own slightly different collection of kuit. And like modern manuals, they won't do you much good without a good instructor tho help you along.   




hunt1 said:


> ...He pulls with his arms. you do not pull with your arms. Another basic thing. Even Leung Ting, I use him since this form tends to be a LT love fest at times, makes a big point of teaching that you pull will the body not the arms.



Well, there are several people posting on here who were formerly in various branches of LT's system. That creates common ground and respect for a lot of what he taught. But I'm not really feeling the love. His current students don't post here, and won't even talk to some of us outcasts! Regardless of all that, you are absolutely right about pulling with the body and not drawing force into yourself with your arms.



hunt1 said:


> So first 3 violations of basic wing chun; in proper elbow position, brings opponents arm into his own body, Pulls with arms not with his body. There are many more  things that could be pointed out but this is enough for now.



You've got a good eye, Hunt. Now I've got to go back and check this out more carefully. The first time I didn't pay that close attention --but just kind of checked out the flow and feel of their training ...which I liked. Honestly, I really don't expect that much from unknown people on youtube. Now if you are talking one of the great masters of the art, that's something else entirely.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Feb 25, 2013)

Argus said:


> "Loi Lau, Hoi Sung; Lat Sau Jik Chung" - the phrase that I'm sure every WC practitioner is (or should be) familiar with is a Kuen Kuit, or saying. There's quite a few that give good insights on the system and describe what it is about. I am curious which ones hunt1 is referring to though when he claims that they many of them are being violated.



THANK YOU! Lol... We call those the "3 motto's of chi-sau", but Kuen Kuit is fine. What is "kuit"s translation? I've never heard the phrase (or term) kuen kuit... sure kuen(fist), but sometimes all the different terms or different ways people say them get a little overwhelming. Thanks again for the insight! 

All the best,



Jeff


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Feb 25, 2013)

geezer said:


> Jeff, the _kuen kuit_ or "fist-sayings" are traditional rhyming couplets that express the essence of WC teachings. There are many shared kuit between the branches, and others that are specific to particular lineages. In the WT branch many instructors don't go around quoting a lot of esoteric "kuit" since they can be "just so many words". And just like techniques, they can be misunderstood and mis-applied. Still they are part of our tradition, and they can be useful reminders of how to integate our core concepts. Leung Ting just called them "mottos" in his books. For example, check out the "mottos" section in his little _Siu Nim Tau_ book.
> 
> Now I can almost hear you saying, "Oh yeah, so _that's_ what you're talking about! _Of course I know that stuff".
> 
> _I think most of us WT guys didn't worry too much about all the Cantonese terms for techniques, history and so forth. LT put a lot more emphasis on getting us to do it right than on trying to teach us Cantonese. Still get a Chinese guy to coach you on how to say that key motto: _Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung. _Not only does it encapsulate the essence of WC/WT/VT, but it sounds _soooo cool!_



Geezer,

Ya, so little panda story time, I was under Sifu (haha) William Parker, and while his fighting ability is pretty good, his understanding of the chinese terminology and his ability to explain theories and concepts is truly lacking. I picked up all of Si-gungs (LT's) books and with my Dai-si-hing's and my favorite to-dai's help we delved into WT theory, motto's, concepts and terminology. I'm starting to get rusty, but I've never heard the term "kuen kuit", again thank you guys for shedding some light for me.

The reason why all of us left the IWTA-NAS is because the three "Big/bad" instructors were trash. Ya Sifu Parker has some chi-sau/lat-sau chops; but the Mikes didn't have that much skill. Sifu Lau Gar Sun is really outstanding (of course he actually speaks chinese), but My old sifu, and the countless others who will remain nameless really never got into the theory. They were more technique collecters from my point of view. I've never met Sifu Elmond Leung, but one of his student's/training partners Sifu Haw Kuo is outstanding, and his understanding and practical applicaiton of theory is outstanding. There is so many good ones out there now, all products of the LT org. The fella's under "City Wing Tsun" happen to be my favorite. They are extremely well versed in theory as well as the HK style Wing Tsun. Of course, Sifu Richter speaks Cantonese so he can read and understand like I would never be able to. Many of the other guys and split with Sifu Lau are wonderful people who are very good martial artists and just good folks.

It looks like I need to get into more theory and concepts lol.

Thanks again Geezer!!! Your the man!


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Feb 25, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> Not an insult just a statement of fact from my pov.  I tend to be direct don't really have the time to play around.  Kuit are the wing chun instruction manual. You have probably heard them or know them even if you don't identify them as such.
> 
> The first thing everyone is taught is basic elbow position. Everyone has been taught 1 to 1.5 fist lengths from the chest. If not raise your hand. Look at the chi sau. Totally violates this most basic concept, brings elbows back to chest and even to his side. Only because he is playing a game with a student does he get away with this. You do not ever bring the opponents hand back to your chest. Do this with a non compliant person and you should get a good smack every time.
> 
> ...



Ok so I think I get it Hunt1; Your speaking of the "immovable elbow theory", "center line theory" etc. the motto's, concepts; basically all the wing tsun theorom.

Yes I undertand that they don't do it exactly like LT does it. And trust me, there is no love lost between me and Si-Gung or his association. Just the fact remains, he's had more students worldwide than any other instructor; and alot of US are still with the association, or recently seperated. So it's not so much a LT love-fest, but we all belong to the same immediate family.

I didn't feel the need to critisize every single movement the guy did in the video, because honestly, I don't know all the answers. I've had experiences with Ip Chun, Moy Yat, and Chan Yiu Min (Chan Wah Shun's son) lineages, and some of them did stuff that was DURASTICALLY different; Yet it worked. I thought it was silly, untill I picked my sorry *** off the ground wondering what the hell just happened . Just because they don't do stuff like we do, doesn't mean it isn't effective or right. When you get this mentality that something is "RIGHT/WRONG", YOU are wrong. The concepts and theories can be changed; but only after due process. Remember, not all branches fully extend their punches (Chan Yiu Min lineage). They also don't use the YGKYM (Yee gee kim yeung ma) how we do it. Matter of fact, the CYM lineage turn's on the heels of their feet (which is a BIG no-no in LT system), yet it works... REALLY damn well .

My personal advice to you is to stop worrying so much about breaking tennants and worry about what works and doesn't work.

But thanks for the terminology lesson and your point of view; It was informative 

All the best,


Jeff


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## hunt1 (Feb 26, 2013)

Sorry have to disagree. If all we go by is" it works" then By your logic all the NFL scouts at the combine are just wasting their time. All Olympic trainers should just hang it. 

 First to think that it worked on you and there fore it will work on everyone or is valid is egotistical and foolish. Someone from CYM put you on your *** has absolutly no barring on how his wing chun would work against anyone else.
To use Golf . Lee Trevino was one of the top pro golfers of his day. Yet he had the single worst fault for a gold swing,a loop. Follow your logic and proper mechanics be damned it worked for Lee so it s ok ,shouldn't be corrected and in fact should be taught to others.  Tiger should put a loop in his swing and still be a great golfer.

 All you hear about at NFL combine is technique and mechanics. Why? because a superior athlete can make many things work even if they are mechanically unsound. However at a top level where all are good athletes it is proper technique and mechanics that make the difference. This is true across all physical activities. Tim Tebow has horrible mechanics and will never be a pro started unless he fixes them yet he was a great college QB. When skilled meets skilled mechanics will make the difference.

 Now can you add or change wing chun, sure but then you are no longer doing wing chun and our wing chun works very well. Until you are actually doing wing chun as it was designed how can you determine if it works?


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## HammockRider (Feb 26, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> Now can you add or change wing chun, sure but then you are no longer doing wing chun and our wing chun works very well. Until you are actually doing wing chun as it was designed how can you determine if it works?




But don't different schools have some different ideas on how wing chun was designed? If so how can you tell which ones are correct? One way might be_ if it works_.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Feb 26, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> Sorry have to disagree. If all we go by is" it works" then By your logic all the NFL scouts at the combine are just wasting their time. All Olympic trainers should just hang it.
> 
> First to think that it worked on you and there fore it will work on everyone or is valid is egotistical and foolish. Someone from CYM put you on your *** has absolutly no barring on how his wing chun would work against anyone else.
> To use Golf . Lee Trevino was one of the top pro golfers of his day. Yet he had the single worst fault for a gold swing,a loop. Follow your logic and proper mechanics be damned it worked for Lee so it s ok ,shouldn't be corrected and in fact should be taught to others.  Tiger should put a loop in his swing and still be a great golfer.
> ...



I was going to draft a big long reply, but honestly I don't think your worth the words it would take, as most of my common sense would bounce off your nazi like views and your clear idea that you are never wrong.

Suffice it to say, football and golf have no reference when it comes to self defense. Saying that you have to follow kuen kuit to the letter is how we get outdated, and if your going to be a stubborn, rude, obnoxious child and start flaming me for my observations and praise of other styles, please stop posting in my threads, or make your own so you can flame me without drawing away from the topic at hand: These two guys in a video who are doing a rather good job of chi-sau, whether or not they are "perfect" by my standards, I just figured it was worth sharing with everyone on here. If you don't like it; go somewhere else.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Feb 26, 2013)

HammockRider said:


> But don't different schools have some different ideas on how wing chun was designed? If so how can you tell which ones are correct? One way might be_ if it works_.



All the different branches have their own ways of doing their art. Even though my WT is different than anyone elses (even in my own branch) because it is uniquely mine because of my body type and the way I believe it should be done.

This hunt1 fella is just trying to argue.


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## geezer (Feb 26, 2013)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> This hunt1 fella is just trying to argue.



Arguing online is pointless. That's all they seem to do on some other forums. And there is no practical way to resolve these questions anyway. Unlike football, golf and other major competitive sports, WC has no major competitive avenue for mass testing and statistically determining which method works best for most people. 

When I disagree, I prefer to have people _demonstrate_. Then you can see for yourself. But just beating someone won't convince them. A lot of guys can beat me even though they have bad habits (like Hunt's Lee Trevino example). What's much more convincing is when somebody can show _me_ something that helps me beat somebody else! That's what a good coach can do. Unfortunately, that's beyond the scope of a forum. 

Meanwhile, we need to just chill, and accept the truth that _everybody else_ is an arrogant bastard and we know _we're absolutely right_. Works for me! :bangahead:


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## hunt1 (Feb 26, 2013)

HammockRider said:


> But don't different schools have some different ideas on how wing chun was designed? If so how can you tell which ones are correct? One way might be_ if it works_.



 Excellent question! Thats where the kuen Kuit come in. My best wing chun friend is Phil Romero. He is Hawkins senior student. We have different wing chun backgrounds and yet when we get together our performance and understanding of wing chun is very similar. We even joke about the same wing chun. The same happens with WSL or HKM trained sifu's. When I crossed hands with Pein Sun sifu's and YKS sifus we shared similar core's even though there may have been different outer shells. There is a core understanding that can be found across wing chun families. now not all have this understanding but the fact that so many do even coming from completely different teachers is evidence of a core set of principals and mechanics and these have been saved and passed down through the Kuit and the forms.

 Wing chun denegrates when these understandings are not passed down or understood.

 They provide the foundation ,walls and roof of the wing chun house. How you landscape,or design the rooms or furnish the house is up to you. that is why The same sifu's I have trained with and crossed hands with do things differently. each family has there own interior but we all should share the same foundation.

 As for works how do you judge? If it works is subjective. I am sure when you started doing chi sau you found that worked on A didn't work at all on B. That happens because you are relying on physical abilities and are able to pull something off against A but B reacts better and therefor we can't make it work against them. As you get better and are more relaxed and use less tension you find that you can now make it work against A and B. You are now starting to perform the technique as intended.
 The sooner you give up the physical and rely on the wing chun mechanics the sooner things fall into place. There is always someone stronger and faster. The whole point of the wing chun system is to get passed this and have a set of mechanics and a way of using the body to get the power of the lower body coordinated with every movement of the upper body.


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## hunt1 (Feb 26, 2013)

Suffice it to say, football and golf have no reference when it comes to self defense. 

 LOL, the fact that you could say this shows how little you understand about wing chun or physical activity in general.  Nothing I have done is flaming rude or obnoxious.  I clearly said the flow was nice just pointed out that the skill was lacking. People praising low level skills is one of the reasons wing chun has become a laughing stock . A nice chi sau game is just that and should not be held up to the public as an example of skill. Perhaps my standards are just to high. 
 I can not help the fact that your skill level and understanding is low. Only you can open your mind and search  and rectify that situation. If you are content that is fine with me. Just don't whine when someone disagree's with you. Posting on a public forum and then crying" he's being mean to me" is the only childish thing that has happened.


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## geezer (Feb 26, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> Perhaps my standards are just to high.  ...I can not help the fact that your skill level and understanding is low. Only you can open your mind and search  and rectify that situation. If you are content that is fine with me. Just don't whine when someone disagree's with you. Posting on a public forum and then crying" he's being mean to me" is the only childish thing that has happened.



Hey _Hunt_, do you have to be so harsh? How about trying a little _de-escalation_ or, if you prefer, a little verbal chi-sau before laying on the verbal chain punches! You have some very interesting  points to contribute. But when you slam another forum member like that, you'll just get more resistance. And next thing you know, we'll sound just like those other forums. No, we're not all sifus and self-proclaimed experts here, and not everybody is even a 'chunner, but we try to make everybody feel at home. Even when they say something we think is kinda dumb.


Now regarding your sports analogies-- I think you had a good point. Anybody who has competed and coached other athletic disciplines understands that. But there is a huge difference in that most other sports don't claim to be based on an arcane body of knowledge passed down with cultish secrecy for generations. Even really rare and difficult to master skills like, say pitching a knuckleball, get _tested_ out in the open against the same batters everybody else has to pitch against. So in spite of the knuckleball mystique, we have the stats to know if it's working. So it's not what R.A. Dickey says in an interview, it's how he does on the mound that decides his career.

With Wing Chun it's very different. We seldom if ever see the techniques tested publicly, and never in sufficient quantity to have any kind of stats divorced from the personalities involved. It all comes back to individual experience and "testimonials" or "war stories" about certain sifus and their exploits. Another thing that's very different about WC (and TCMA in general) is the attitude that it descends from some perfect ancestral form or "authentic" version with the only correct principles and, by extension, that some groups preserve these concepts while others dilute and corrupt them. 

This is exactly the _opposite_ attitude from that of the sporting world where coaches and athletes are always looking for new ways to improve and go beyond what the previous generation accomplished. In sports, records are constantly broken. In WC people argue about who still does it the "original" and "authentic" way. Pretty hard to reconcile those two frames of mind. Any thoughts?


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## Vajramusti (Feb 26, 2013)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> So this feller is pretty darn good in my opinion. He is sticking to the centerline like a beast, he is always going forward and he is actually doing chi-sau instead of beating up his student lol.
> 
> I just figured this was worth posting! Comment if you like, but most of all enjoy the show
> 
> ...


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I am being civil but honest-that is pretty sloppy wing chun in the video.


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## hunt1 (Feb 26, 2013)

geezer said:


> Hey _Hunt_, do you have to be so harsh? How about trying a little _de-escalation_ or, if you prefer, a little verbal chi-sau before laying on the verbal chain punches! You have some very interesting  points to contribute. But when you slam another forum member like that, you'll just get more resistance. And next thing you know, we'll sound just like those other forums. No, we're not all sifus and self-proclaimed experts here, and not everybody is even a 'chunner, but we try to make everybody feel at home. Even when they say something we think is kinda dumb.
> 
> 
> Now regarding your sports analogies-- I think you had a good point. Anybody who has competed and coached other athletic disciplines understands that. But there is a huge difference in that most other sports don't claim to be based on an arcane body of knowledge passed down with cultish secrecy for generations. Even really rare and difficult to master skills like, say pitching a knuckleball, get _tested_ out in the open against the same batters everybody else has to pitch against. So in spite of the knuckleball mystique, we have the stats to know if it's working. So it's not what R.A. Dickey says in an interview, it's how he does on the mound that decides his career.
> ...




 Geezer you are right. One reason I don't post often is that I have a difficult time expressing myself in a not so harsh manner.
 and you a right about wing chin not being tested. That was the point of my post.  Since it is not often tested we at least should look for example where at least the very basic's of wing chun are being followed. It's not secret or special knowledge its just at the most basic level elbow position the first thing taught in your first class wasn't even being followed or used. Not to mention anything else. Yet the vid was being praised as a good example of wing chun skill. As someone that has been involved with wing chun for 30 years now something I have a passion for I had to point out that it was not high level skill from my pov. You can be relaxed and still maintain wing chun structure and position.

 As I said its not about authentic etc its just about common sense. All human beings are physically designed the same way. There are optimum body mechanics that cross all field's and are shared by all fields of athletics. Unless the position is that to do wing chun you have to be deformed in some way then your wing chun must share these mechanics. The only thing different between the proper way to swing a gold club and strike the ball and the wing chun punch is the angles used and the goal. The power must come up from the ground .Is transferred by the waist, the arms are like whips and the grip cannot be tense but relaxed so the power can come through the arms . Gripping to tightly is just like tensing the wrist and fist. etc. Proper technique for football linemen especially Offensive line is just like wing chun. That's why several pro teams have even had wing chun teachers in to help their linemen.


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## mook jong man (Feb 26, 2013)

On closer inspection when you go back and look at the video closely , Hunt has some very valid points.
Their angles do collapse quite a lot and they do pull with their arms without pivoting the body , and as Joy said that could be classified as sloppy Wing Chun

But as an example of relaxation and not using excessive brute strength  I reckon they are pretty good.
All they would have to do is work on maintaining their optimum angle in their arms , and they would be good to go in my opinion.


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## yak sao (Feb 27, 2013)

Keeping with the sports analogy, think of major league baseball players. They don't all share the same batting stance. In fact many of them have outright unorthodox stances that make you wonder why it wasn't drilled out of them back in little league; yet somehow they are able to make it work for them and hit the ball.
Why? because underneath the outer appearance, they are still following certain principles that allow them to connect with the baseball.

As for WC, is there a time when it takes on your characteristics? 
Don't misunderstand me...ask the people who train with me, I am downright anal on wanting things done correctly in our forms with regards to structure, etc., and I think the proper body mechanics of our system is the driving force of what makes it work....
All of this said, are there acceptable variances on the surface, that still follow the underlying principles?


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## hunt1 (Feb 27, 2013)

yak sao said:


> Keeping with the sports analogy, think of major league baseball players. They don't all share the same batting stance. In fact many of them have outright unorthodox stances that make you wonder why it wasn't drilled out of them back in little league; yet somehow they are able to make it work for them and hit the ball.
> Why? because underneath the outer appearance, they are still following certain principles that allow them to connect with the baseball.
> 
> As for WC, is there a time when it takes on your characteristics?
> ...




Yes, there are many acceptable variances. Basic is we all have 2 arms,legs etc. However then there are other things we do not share, all have different athletic abilities,different physical abilities so to make the system usable by all there must be individual changes like my house analogy. As a practical matter not everyone can get their elbows into the ideal  position in front of their chest. So as teachers we must make individual adjustments to overcome physical limitations keeping in mind what the foundational principals are. I did'nt start out being able to keep my elbows in front of my chest 1 to 1.5 fist lengths away but over time with practice I was able to do so. It has been said by many Yip Man students that he would change the system to fit the students ability or if they were unable to grasp something he would modify it to their level of understanding. I believe in general this is how we have come to have so many variations.

 Many students lost sight of the basics and just went with Yip showed me this so this must be right even if Yip showed something different to someone else. This same thing happened in mainland styles. You have trouble with wing chun body mechanics no problem use Hung gar mechanics. Bottom line goal is to defend yourself so on an individual basis you must do whatever is necessary for you. However that doesn't mean you just abandon the wing chun concepts. However many did just the opposite. They took what worked for them based on their body type and abilities and passed that down on gospel.

 Once many years ago I heard Moy Yat tell a story that there was a Yip student who had trouble with a particular movement on his left side so Yip Man gave this student an alternative way to do it. However this student passed this alternative way down to all his students so now they all did the move incorrectly even though they were more than capable of doing the move as intended.


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## geezer (Feb 27, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> ...Once many years ago I heard Moy Yat tell a story that there was a Yip student who had trouble with a particular movement on his left side so Yip Man gave this student an alternative way to do it. However this student passed this alternative way down to all his students so now they all did the move *incorrectly* even though they were more than capable of doing the move as intended.



I wonder about the choice of the word "incorrectly" to describe the modification. Clearly if it was the most efficient and effective adaptation for the sifu, then for him it was "correct". On the other hand, for his students it was not! Similarly, I modify my stance and steps in a less than ideal way to compensate for an old injury which partially crippled my left ankle. But, unlike the sifu in the story, I explain this to my students, and insist that they stand in the "correct", traditional stance (assuming they can) which I model on the other side. 

I suspect that even GM Yip Man altered his conception of what is "ideal WC" over the course of his lifetime. An old man generally will see things differently than a young one. So, even within the Yip Man lineage, there would be different ways to approach the art, and many approaches could be said to be legitimate and effective, although like you said, not all _equally _effective for each individual. In fact I'd go further, and say that the current state of WC is far from perfect, and it will continue to evolve for both better and worse with each generation.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Feb 27, 2013)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I am being civil but honest-that is pretty sloppy wing chun in the video.



I used see a video and automatically assume that I could see every detail. And after the many opprotunities to roll with other people i've come to find that my eyes don't catch everything, and when I actually roll with someone I can "See" a lot more with my hands than my eyes. So it may look like slop-sau to some, and thats ok . I'm just saying before I jump to any conclusions I would roll with them.


All the best,


Jeff


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## Vajramusti (Feb 27, 2013)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> I used see a video and automatically assume that I could see every detail. And after the many opprotunities to roll with other people i've come to find that my eyes don't catch everything, and when I actually roll with someone I can "See" a lot more with my hands than my eyes. So it may look like slop-sau to some, and thats ok . I'm just saying before I jump to any conclusions I would roll with them.
> 
> 
> All the best,
> ...


==============================

Wish you well also...


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## smithr (Feb 28, 2013)

I liked the video, but I am curious, Does Wing Chun have any kicks or sweeps? Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question , but I know nothing about WC, and all I see is upper body and arms, along with angling and distance control. Would a WC practitioner throw in a kick once in a while?


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Feb 28, 2013)

smithr said:


> I liked the video, but I am curious, Does Wing Chun have any kicks or sweeps? Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question , but I know nothing about WC, and all I see is upper body and arms, along with angling and distance control. Would a WC practitioner throw in a kick once in a while?



Yes we do. 





 - Sifu Sergio Iadarola briefly explains chi-gerk or "sticky leg" and gives a quick demonstration.





 - I don't know who the hell this is, but its the best video I've ever seen on chi-gerk. I just found it. It shows the way WT uses footwork and how we position our feet to kick. Notice when they kick inside a leg, the toes are pointed in, and when out, so are the toes. 

I'm pretty sure these guys aren't with the IWTA anymore because last I checked it was expressly forbidden to post any social media including advanced (haha) techniques. This is what most people teach starting at 2nd student grade (about a month (or less) of training).

But here you go, this is how WT trains footwork. And you can see a little of how we apply it.


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## mook jong man (Feb 28, 2013)

Wing Chun has many kicks including a lot of sweeping , deflecting , hooking and locking movements.

There's a few kicks in these ones , mainly low heel kicks and stamp kicks , with a few hook kicks and sweeps
The women in the videos is one of my old instructors.

[video=youtube_share;dcx0AqADF0E]http://youtu.be/dcx0AqADF0E[/video]

[video=youtube_share;VdHRin1r6fY]http://youtu.be/VdHRin1r6fY[/video]

[video=youtube_share;gLhC8n40nLw]http://youtu.be/gLhC8n40nLw[/video]


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