# Danger of Predators in the Outdoors



## Makalakumu (Oct 3, 2007)

I wanted to start a thread so that we could discuss the danger (real or percieved) posed by predators in the wilderness.  So lets talk about bears, cougars, wolves, anything that poses a threat to the average outdoorsperson (except humans - that can be another thread) and how to deal rationally with those threats.


----------



## Makalakumu (Oct 3, 2007)

List of fatal, unprovoked shark attacks in the United States by decade 
List of fatal alligator attacks in the United States by decade 
List of fatal bear attacks in North America by decade 
List of fatal wolf attacks 
List of fatal cougar attacks in North America by decade


----------



## Makalakumu (Oct 3, 2007)

If anyone can find a more complete list or a more authoritative source, please do so.  I think that before we continue here, we need to establish just how common attacks really are.


----------



## bydand (Oct 3, 2007)

For as many Black Bears as we have here in Maine, you never hear of any attacks.  I cannot remember one in the last 20 years that I have been interested in such things.  Cannot even hazard a guess about Cougars, other types of bears, or wolves.

Now bluff charges are another thing altogether.  I have been bluff charged by a Bear several times, and it will get the old ticker thumping.  Problem is you don't know when they are going to stop 10 feet from you, and when they are going to go through with it.   Had a Bobcat show a bit of displeasure once when I came too close.  Moose are a bigger threat here than the typical predators that first come to mind.  They are big, ornery, and not afraid of anything in the woods.  I have had 2 seriously try to stomp me into extinction.  I give them plenty of respect and a wide berth.  To tell the truth I am more worried about low hanging hornet nests than I am any mammals out there.  That doesn't mean that during the Spring, I go stream fishing unarmed.  Never can tell when you might meet that one bear who is hungry, mad and not going to bluff.


----------



## Cruentus (Oct 3, 2007)

bydand said:


> I give them plenty of respect and a wide berth. To tell the truth I am more worried about low hanging hornet nests than I am any mammals out there. That doesn't mean that during the Spring, I go stream fishing unarmed. Never can tell when you might meet that one bear who is hungry, mad and not going to bluff.


 
It's not to be worried about, but it is important to not be stupid and niave and take proper precautions, as you mention in your thread. 

It is a game of odds, but remember that the odds are that most people aren't attacked because most people don't play in these animals environments. 

So, sure, the odds are next to impossible that I'll be attacked by a shark near my home because I don't live near the Ocean. I decide to go swimming in the Ocean where it is known that there are sharks, my odds increase, but are still pretty slim. But what if I decide to swim off the coast of South Africa or Australia in Great White infested waters with sea lions and a bucket of chum? Yea, my odds greatly increase of being attacked by a shark from a once very low percent chance to a now very high percent chance.

Now, no one is going to be that stupid, hopefully. But, my point is that the odds are low to be attacked by any animal, but that people do stupid **** to increase their odds.

So, the moral here is don't be a dumb ***.  But seriously, don't get cocky and take the proper precautions. These animals deserve our respect, and taking the proper precautions is giving animals the respect that they deserve...

C.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Oct 3, 2007)

What are the odds of being attacked by a person? Yet look at all the preparation we do as MArtist's.

Dont worry but be ready.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 3, 2007)

well, mountain lions are a bit of a problem here in California, as we keep pushing into their habitat which ultimately forces encounters.  They do seem to be willing to view people as potential food, they are crafty and will trail you in the woods and jump you from behind.  Once the back of your neck is in his jaws, it's probably all over for you.

that being said, there have been a couple stories in the last couple of years of people successfully fighting them off.  One was an elderly man who killed one with a pocket knife, and the other was an elderly couple, the man was taken by the cat and suffered severe woulds to his head, but his wife fought it off with a stick.  Pretty amazing.

I think the thing with mountain lions is you gotta be alert and aware because they will follow you and try to take you unaware.

All in all I think the chances of being attacked are still pretty small, but it does happen out here...


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Oct 3, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> well, mountain lions are a bit of a problem here in California, as we keep pushing into their habitat which ultimately forces encounters. They do seem to be willing to view people as potential food, they are crafty and will trail you in the woods and jump you from behind. Once the back of your neck is in his jaws, it's probably all over for you.
> 
> that being said, there have been a couple stories in the last couple of years of people successfully fighting them off. One was an elderly man who killed one with a pocket knife, and the other was an elderly couple, the man was taken by the cat and suffered severe woulds to his head, but his wife fought it off with a stick. Pretty amazing.
> 
> ...


 

Ive read several current survival manuals that reccommend you play dead with a Grizzley (because you really have no chance against one unarmed) but fight if attacked by a cougar or Black Bear because they average a humans weight/size and a deternined and healthy human has a solid chance of either killing or fighting one off. The say that cougars/BB are also less likely to leave you alone if you play dead.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 3, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Ive read several current survival manuals that reccommend you play dead with a Grizzley (because you really have no chance against one unarmed) but fight if attacked by a cougar or Black Bear because they average a humans weight/size and a deternined and healthy human has a solid chance of either killing or fighting one off. The say that cougars/BB are also less likely to leave you alone if you play dead.


 

yes, I think I've heard similar suggestions as well.

I think with a grizzly, you're likely to get mauled, pissed on, and buried under a pile of leaves for later consumption.  If you protect your vitals you just might survive it and be able to escape when he wanders off.  But you're gonna pay dearly for it.

With blacks and mountain lions, I think you wanna look as big as you can.  Wave big sticks in the air, stand tall, open your jacket, make noise, whatever you can to look like something he doesn't want to tackle.  

I think a black can grow to over 600 pounds, and a mountain lion to over 150, and they are certainly faster and stronger than even a large man, at least in the ways that matter.  Those claws and teeth add to the advantage as well...

I'd be pretty bummin' if I had to face one down with just a folding pocket knife.


----------



## Nomad (Oct 3, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Ive read several current survival manuals that reccommend you play dead with a Grizzley (because you really have no chance against one unarmed) but fight if attacked by a cougar or Black Bear because they average a humans weight/size and a deternined and healthy human has a solid chance of either killing or fighting one off. The say that cougars/BB are also less likely to leave you alone if you play dead.


 
I don't want to hijack the thread, but this post reminded me of a joke:

How do you tell a black bear from a grizzly bear?

Climb a tree.

If it's a black bear, he'll climb up after you and kill you.

If it's a grizzly bear, he'll knock the tree down and kill you.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 3, 2007)

Nomad said:


> I don't want to hijack the thread, but this post reminded me of a joke:
> 
> How do you tell a black bear from a grizzly bear?
> 
> ...


 
That's actually pretty funny, in a twisted sort of way.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Oct 3, 2007)

I have wondered around in the woods from the time I was big enough to walk and have been fortunate enough never to encounter a mean bear or any other wild life that did not like me except for a skunk I almost stepped on.
I would think snakes would be a bigger problem than some of the larger animals out there


----------



## MA-Caver (Oct 3, 2007)

My own personal experiences with predators in the wild have been limited (thankfully) and usually after the fact. 
Not in any particular order...
1. Arrived at a cave entrance to find fresh (cougar) tracks (going IN but not out) and fresh scat that was less than 12 hours old. This was determined by using a stick and breaking the largest piece and finding only a hardened crust with soft to mushy insides and bits of fur and bone in the fecal mix. Cave was entered cautiously and no animal was found... turns out the cave had two natural entrances. 
2. Hiking back from a cave in the dark to the vehicles some 3 1/2 miles away in heavily wooded canyon and I personally sensed a presence nearby when I stopped to allow my companions to catch up as I was roughly 100 yards ahead of them. When they neared to 50 (or so) yards I continued on. At the vehicles the remaining group was excitedly chatting and asked me if I had seen the two (black) bears that were just off the trail we used to hike down. They must've been within yards away from me but I didn't see or hear them in the thick brush.
3. Hiking back down in the dark from yet another cave with yet another group, our headlamps reflected off the eyes of what is presumed to be a very angry (or in heat) bobcat as it was yowling and screeching some 30-35 yards away from us. We just continued on until it faded out of (hearing) range. 
4. Hiking UP to a cave in a steep canyon during the middle of winter cougar tracks were spotted crossing the trail we were using. Could've been from the night before but we kept our eyes and ears opened none-the-less. 
5. Camping in a remote campground something snuffled and pushed against our tent and just happened to be on the side I was sleeping on. Someone else heard a growl and then nothing else beyond that. 

I've noticed from upnorth's links that the list of bear attacks (on women) didn't post the autopsy reports (not surprising) to determined if the women were possibly menstruating at the time of the attack. 
Most of the cougar attacks were upon children. Which shouldn't be surprising since they are viewed as our "cubs" and thus easy prey than a large adult. I don't think the animals were making any distinction on the species since they tend to try to take fawns and other young mammals rather the adult versions of the young. (tiny trivia... did anyone know that deer/elk fawns have no scent?) 
Wolves attacking people are very few and far between... anyone noticed that? 

Going in to deep wilderness one needs to consult park-rangers and other wild-life experts on conditions and know the habits of potential predators. Making a lot of noise to let the predators know you're there sounds like an oxymoron but it basically gives them warning that you're around and gives them the option to get out of the area. 
Anyone with small children should have the common sense I would think to know NOT to go in to DEEP wilderness areas no matter how good it may be for them.


----------



## Lynne (Oct 3, 2007)

I take my dog out at night and have come too close to a skunk here and there.  Near dusk and during nighttime is a prime time to run into a skunk. The big fear is getting sprayed.  That's what we think about, right?

What about being attacked by a skunk?  It happens and they don't have to be rabid to attack.  A few years back, my daughter was attending a Christian Camp hosted by a ranch.  They'd typically go horseriding on a daily basis.  Before a ride, I noticed that one of the teenage camp couselors had his entire lower leg bandaged.  He'd gone hiking on the horse trail the late afternoon/early evening previous and startled a skunk.  The thing attacked his leg, biting him severely and scratching his legs to ribbons; its claws were like razorblades he said.  He was wearing shorts on his hike.  If he'd been wearing long pants as one should do in the woods or even on somewhat open trails, he would have sustained less injury.

Oh, he had to have rabies shots, too.


----------



## Tames D (Oct 3, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> My own personal experiences with predators in the wild have been limited (thankfully) and usually after the fact.
> Not in any particular order...
> 1. Arrived at a cave entrance to find fresh (cougar) tracks (going IN but not out) and fresh scat that was less than 12 hours old. This was determined by using a stick and breaking the largest piece and finding only a hardened crust with soft to mushy insides and bits of fur and bone in the fecal mix. Cave was entered cautiously and no animal was found... turns out the cave had two natural entrances.
> 2. Hiking back from a cave in the dark to the vehicles some 3 1/2 miles away in heavily wooded canyon and I personally sensed a presence nearby when I stopped to allow my companions to catch up as I was roughly 100 yards ahead of them. When they neared to 50 (or so) yards I continued on. At the vehicles the remaining group was excitedly chatting and asked me if I had seen the two (black) bears that were just off the trail we used to hike down. They must've been within yards away from me but I didn't see or hear them in the thick brush.
> ...


Regarding item #1... ARE YOU CRAZY??? LOL. I would have backed away from that cave as fast as possible. LOL.


----------



## Blindside (Oct 4, 2007)

Of my friends who frequent time in the outdoors, one has been jumped by a cougar, another has been openly stalked while he was fishing.

Every carnivore biologist that I have ever spoken to has told me that if you spend any time in the wilderness (western US anyway) a big cat has checked you out, and you never knew about it.  

Yes the odds are low, so is being caught in an avalanche while skiing, that doesn't mean an avalanche beacon isn't a good investment.

Lamont


----------



## bydand (Oct 4, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> 1. Arrived at a cave entrance to find fresh (cougar) tracks (going IN but not out) and fresh scat that was less than 12 hours old. This was determined by using a stick and breaking the largest piece and finding only a hardened crust with soft to mushy insides and bits of fur and bone in the fecal mix. Cave was entered cautiously and no animal was found... turns out the cave had two natural entrances.





QUI-GON said:


> Regarding item #1... ARE YOU CRAZY??? LOL. I would have backed away from that cave as fast as possible. LOL.




My thoughts exactly!!


----------



## bydand (Oct 4, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Yes the odds are low, so is being caught in an avalanche while skiing, that doesn't mean an avalanche beacon isn't a good investment.
> 
> Lamont



So true, like I mentioned already, even though the odds are very small of an animal bothering you out in the woods, I still carry when stream fishing.  I tuck the old .44 Mag filled with handloaded 265 or 300 grain bullets in my shoulder holster, and the 4+ pounds are a nice thing to be able to grab if needed.  I've had it out on a couple of occasions, but haven't had to pull the trigger yet to stop an animal.  Looked down the barrel at both bear and moose.


----------



## Makalakumu (Oct 4, 2007)

Okay, is there such as being over prepared?  Think of it in terms of MA, you don't walk everywhere you go armed to the teeth.  What do you think are appropriate precautions to the level of threat presented?  What about places where certain precautions are forbidden?  For example, most National Parks that I know of forbid firearms.

Lastly, if anyone would recommend a good all around firearm for places you can carry, what would it be?


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Oct 4, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> I think a black can grow to over 600 pounds, and a mountain lion to over 150, and they are certainly faster and stronger than even a large man, at least in the ways that matter. Those claws and teeth add to the advantage as well...


 
Yeah, Ive personally seen a 500lb black bear, but mid 100's to 200's are the average around here. Cougars are in the 70's-100's.


----------



## Blindside (Oct 4, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Okay, is there such as being over prepared? Think of it in terms of MA, you don't walk everywhere you go armed to the teeth. What do you think are appropriate precautions to the level of threat presented? What about places where certain precautions are forbidden? For example, most National Parks that I know of forbid firearms.
> 
> Lastly, if anyone would recommend a good all around firearm for places you can carry, what would it be?


 
As I said on the other thread, I haven't really felt a need to take a gun into the wildnerness, but I can see why others feel the need.  

There are limits on where you can take firearms, National Parks is a biggie, but so are National Wildlife Refuges if you aren't hunting.  That said, my scoutmaster packed a revolver in the outside pocket of his pack wherever we would go, he wasn't going to be unprepared.  (Based on later training with him, I'm pretty certain it was a Colt Python in .357 mag.)  

When my family lived in Alaska it was a Ruger Redhawk in .44 mag or shotgun in 12 gauge.

Standard training and issue for biologists working in the backcountry in Alaska is a 12 gauge with slugs. 

Since my main concern is cougar, the .357 mag with a heavy grain bullet makes perfect sense to me, and since I learned to shoot pistols on a Colt Python, I've always wanted one.  Seems like a good excuse. 

Lamont


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Oct 4, 2007)

From my (admittedly not Ranger Rick level, but pretty extensive) wilderness experience, predators aren't really much of an issue.

It's the snakes, scorpions, spiders and such that cause a lot of injury and fatalities.  Far more than bears and cougars and whatnot.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Cruentus (Oct 4, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Okay, is there such as being over prepared? Think of it in terms of MA, you don't walk everywhere you go armed to the teeth. What do you think are appropriate precautions to the level of threat presented? What about places where certain precautions are forbidden? For example, most National Parks that I know of forbid firearms.
> 
> Lastly, if anyone would recommend a good all around firearm for places you can carry, what would it be?


 
For protection against animals specifically, I would say a large frame revolver like a .44 mag would be good. Revolver because of the reliability and ability to function even if it gets a little dirty. Pistol because your not looking to poach or hunt, your looking to protect yourself, so you need something you can access quickly in a close quarter situation. Plus it is easy to carry, and so forth.

As to National Parks, the ones that outlaw firearms are mainly concerned with poaching, as far as I understand it.


----------



## Blindside (Oct 4, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> As to National Parks, the ones that outlaw firearms are mainly concerned with poaching, as far as I understand it.


 
Yes, but the rules say "no firearms" not just "no poaching."  Firearms generally have to be unavailable or unusuable.

Lamont


----------



## Blindside (Oct 4, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> From my (admittedly not Ranger Rick level, but pretty extensive) wilderness experience, predators aren't really much of an issue.
> 
> It's the snakes, scorpions, spiders and such that cause a lot of injury and fatalities. Far more than bears and cougars and whatnot.
> 
> Just my two cents.


 
And bee stings, I have no doubt that bees lead to more deaths in the backcountry than large predators, and I have absolutely no stats to back that up.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> ... but mid 100's to 200's are the average around here. Cougars are in the 70's-100's.


 
aye, i'd still hate to face one down without a firearm of some sort.  Even a 200 pound black bear is a formidable opponent if you are bare handed or nearly so.  Hell, that still outweighs me by 50 pounds and I don't have the claws or teeth!  And those cats are QUICK when they strike, another tough customer even at 70 - 100 pounds.

I remember years ago when I was in high school, a friend of mine said that he and his father went to a circus or something, and they had a side show where you could actually wrestle with a black bear.  I think it was muzzled, and the claws has been removed, but I suppose it weighed in the lighter range for a blackie.  I'm sure it wasn't a full 600 pounds, but I'm guessing it was maybe 150 - 250 or something.

At any rate, they watched as these big guys would line up for their chance to wrestle with it.  I don't know how big, he just said they were big guys.  They would get into the ring with the bear, have at it, and when the bear got tired of it, he would just toss the guy off him like it was no big deal.  

Even at a weight that might be comparable to a human, they are still far stronger.

Keep in mind that a full grown chimpanzee can weigh about 150 pounds.  But that chimp is FAR FAR stronger than even a large man, strong enough to literally rip him limb from limb if he so chooses.  They are built differently with a different muscle and bone leveraging advantage, and they got teeth and strong jaws as well.

I don't think you are trying to suggest otherwise, but I guess all I'm saying is, don't let an animal's body weight fool you into thinking you could take it down without a serious weapon.  they can be very dangerous, regardless.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Oct 4, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> aye, i'd still hate to face one down without a firearm of some sort. Even a 200 pound black bear is a formidable opponent if you are bare handed or nearly so. Hell, that still outweighs me by 50 pounds and I don't have the claws or teeth! And those cats are QUICK when they strike, another tough customer even at 70 - 100 pounds.
> 
> I remember years ago when I was in high school, a friend of mine said that he and his father went to a circus or something, and they had a side show where you could actually wrestle with a black bear. I think it was muzzled, and the claws has been removed, but I suppose it weighed in the lighter range for a blackie. I'm sure it wasn't a full 600 pounds, but I'm guessing it was maybe 150 - 250 or something.
> 
> ...


 
No, Im not saying fighting a BB/Cougar would be easy, not at all. I think its just reccommended in survival manuals as an emergency option vs. playing dead because the chances of survival vs. playing dead are better with those animals. I think the odds are better that fighting them will drive them off vs. killing one bare handed.  People HAVE fought off/killed BB and cougars so its a possibility. What you dont want is to tell people is "if attacked by a BB kiss your *** goodbye cause youre a goner."

Im no animal expert but regarding BB size, but I think that on a "natural diet" they average in the 100-200lb range. The huge BB's Ive seen lived in areas where garbage dumps and campers let them feast around the clock if desired.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> No, Im not saying fighting a BB/Cougar would be easy, not at all. I think its just reccommended in survival manuals as an emergency option vs. playing dead because the chances of survival vs. playing dead are better with those animals. I think the odds are better that fighting them will drive them off vs. killing one bare handed. People HAVE fought off/killed BB and cougars so its a possibility. What you dont want is to tell people is "if attacked by a BB kiss your *** goodbye cause youre a goner."
> 
> Im no animal expert but regarding BB size, but I think that on a "natural diet" they average in the 100-200lb range. The huge BB's Ive seen lived in areas where garbage dumps and campers let them feast around the clock if desired.


 
ah, full agreement here.  I agree, it makes sense to fight in this case.  You might still lose, but I'll take whatever chance I can get and hope to drive him off or otherwise survive it.  People have even been known to get a great white shark to release a bite by striking the nose and driving fingers into the eyes.  It's a bad situation, but I don't think it makes sense to just give up and go to your own slaughter.

As to the weight of black bears, you may have something there.  I don't know for sure what their natural weight is and I am sure dumpster diving can help a bear put on a lot of extra weight that he might not otherwise have.  I suppose time of year would have an effect as well.  If it is late autumn and the bears are getting ready to hibernate, they would also be a lot bigger than they are in the early spring.  And I imagine an older bear is a lot more likely to hit the bigger sizes than a younger bear.  I wonder how long it takes then to become fully mature and hit "full" size for the individual.


----------



## shesulsa (Oct 4, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> What you dont want is to tell people is "if attacked by a BB kiss your *** goodbye cause youre a goner."



You're right ... I think that's the advice you give in regards to KODIAK bears. :lol2:


----------



## bydand (Oct 4, 2007)

Up here Black Bear adult females weigh between 100-400# while the adult males weigh between 250-600# (www.maine.gov/ifw/wildlife/species/bear/index.htm ).  For the area I live in, they generally fall right in the middle of the two extremes.  The State denies any Cougars, but there have been too many sightings, even by their own Fish and Game people for the official stance to hold water.  I don't want to tangle with even a year old cub.  Held a cub about 6 or 7 months old once after his momma was hit and killed by a car and he was brought to a couple I knew who raised and released animals.  He hung on to my jacket and it was all I could do to get him off and back to the owner of the place for feeding.  I was amazed at how strong this little tiny cub was, I can just imagine how strong he would be at 300 or 400 pounds.


----------



## MA-Caver (Oct 4, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> Regarding item #1... ARE YOU CRAZY??? LOL. I would have backed away from that cave as fast as possible. LOL.


 Well here's the thing. Backing away quickly would've probably had one falling off a 20 foot ledge that was perched just outside said entrance. So that option is out. 
Also since we were in a good sized group (about 8 of us) most likely the animal would've high-tailed it outta there (via second entrance) rather than be out-numbered. 
Funny thing, the trip leader knew we were all nervous about the possible proximity of a big-cat and he entered the cave first and broke the tension by calling out (high pitched voice) "here kitty kitty kitty". 
I am sure that if the animal were cornered in some-way that it would've growled and hissed and probably roared/screamed in warning before we got too close to it. That would've been enough for us to turn and leave. 

Re: snakes and spiders... you know I was reading "...predators in the outdoors" and gave only thought to large predators and not the small ones like snakes, spiders and scorpions. I really don't give the arachnids any thought except not to get caught in their webs (since they could drop down on you when you destroy them) but walking around the deep woods of Tenn, Ala, & Georgia I worry about copperheads and rattlers hiding in the thick brush. While I rarely (that is to say NEVER) wear shorts while hiking I still don't take chances and watch my steps.


----------



## CoryKS (Oct 4, 2007)

For those of you who are on MySpace, I've uploaded pictures of my hike on the Ozark Trail last May.  User name is the same.  There's a picture of the black rattlesnake I almost stepped on.  :erg:

I didn't come across any predators, but the scariest thing was the turkeys.  They sit in the brush until you're right on them and then explode in all directions with much screeching and flapping of wings.  Geez, give a guy a heart attack why don'tcha?


----------



## Guardian (Nov 17, 2007)

I'm more afraid of being attacked by a rabid/sick raccoon then anything else out there.  I've done my share of hiding, camping and have never run afoul so far anything that would pose a danger to me (or at least that I was aware of LOL).

Those sick raccoons though, those bad boys are fast and those claws and teeth are razor sharp.


----------



## theletch1 (Nov 17, 2007)

Around here the biggest worry I have during the day are the snakes.  Rattlers and copperheads abound.  At night it's the black bear (we've had prints within 10/20 feet of our front door and the coyotes.  The coyotes are a big problem around here.  Small dogs shouldn't be left outside at night and the idea of rabies going through a pack of them is enough to make me shudder.


----------



## rdonovan1 (Aug 13, 2009)

Blindside said:


> Of my friends who frequent time in the outdoors, one has been jumped by a cougar, another has been openly stalked while he was fishing.
> 
> Every carnivore biologist that I have ever spoken to has told me that if you spend any time in the wilderness (western US anyway) a big cat has checked you out, and you never knew about it.
> 
> ...


 

That's why I would never consider going out into the wilderness unarmed as you can never really know for sure as to what is out there at all or as to what you will come across while you are out there.


----------



## rdonovan1 (Aug 13, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> Well here's the thing. Backing away quickly would've probably had one falling off a 20 foot ledge that was perched just outside said entrance. So that option is out.
> Also since we were in a good sized group (about 8 of us) most likely the animal would've high-tailed it outta there (via second entrance) rather than be out-numbered.
> Funny thing, the trip leader knew we were all nervous about the possible proximity of a big-cat and he entered the cave first and broke the tension by calling out (high pitched voice) "here kitty kitty kitty".
> I am sure that if the animal were cornered in some-way that it would've growled and hissed and probably roared/screamed in warning before we got too close to it. That would've been enough for us to turn and leave.
> ...


 
I'm just wondering if you've ever actually seen any copperheads or rattlesnakes out in the wild?

The closest that I have ever come to seeing one is when I was traveling through Texas. I saw a big rattlesnake crossing the road, presumably with the intent of making a meal out of some prarie dogs that were nearby.


----------



## Blindside (Aug 13, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> I'm just wondering if you've ever actually seen any copperheads or rattlesnakes out in the wild?



I see rattlers quite regularly, you just have to look at where you step.  Just like in any other setting, awareness is the first line of defense.


----------



## Blindside (Aug 13, 2009)

Just as a heads up, the law allowing firearms under CCW laws in Parks and Refuges has not been implemented yet.  Dep. of Interior has a target date of Jan, 2010 for implementation.  The laws have been adjusted in the Code of Federal Regulations for both agencies, but is being delayed because the Services need time to prep for the rule changes.


----------



## MA-Caver (Aug 13, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> I'm just wondering if you've ever actually seen any copperheads or rattlesnakes out in the wild?
> 
> The closest that I have ever come to seeing one is when I was traveling through Texas. I saw a big rattlesnake crossing the road, presumably with the intent of making a meal out of some prarie dogs that were nearby.


To be honest... with coppers I haven't seen any to date, but several of my friends have said they've come across a few in their time (some with photos)... rattlers none here where I live (to date) but several out west, including one that bitten me on the thumb... (long story and in retrospect a stupid move altogether). 

Dealing with any animal out in it's territory (they don't care who holds the deed) one has to give it the respect it deserves but one can still deal with the animal on it's own terms and avoid any or serious injury. 
Dunno why this isn't required study at schools.


----------



## rdonovan1 (Aug 13, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> To be honest... with coppers I haven't seen any to date, but several of my friends have said they've come across a few in their time (some with photos)... rattlers none here where I live (to date) but several out west, including one that bitten me on the thumb... (long story and in retrospect a stupid move altogether).
> 
> Dealing with any animal out in it's territory (they don't care who holds the deed) one has to give it the respect it deserves but one can still deal with the animal on it's own terms and avoid any or serious injury.
> Dunno why this isn't required study at schools.


 

I think that you are so right about animals as there really is no way to predict as to what an animals behavior is going to be at any moment. This is particulary true with things like rattlesnakes and copperheads.

Animals like people tend to rely on their instincts and that is why it is always a very good idea to keep that in mind when you are dealing with animals. Especially the more dangerous ones and this point has been made over and over again by herpetologists who study venomous snakes for a living.

On more than one occasion many of them have been bitten at least once if not more because they let their guard down and started to think that the animal was tame and safe. This has happened to even the experts and I know of at least one instance in which it cost the herpetologist his life as he was not paying attention and underestimated the capability of the animal. 

Probably the best known example of this is the death of Steve Irwin several years ago. He knew the dangers, but instead of being smart and keeping his distance he underestimated the animal and it cost him his life. 

That's why it's always a good idea never to underestimate either humans or animals ever and to always give them both a healthy respect.


----------



## Hudson69 (Aug 13, 2009)

I beleive preparation is key, just like with the martial arts if you are doing it so that, if you are going backpacking into bear country, take a gun, a big gun that will make a bear understand you are not lunch (and a previous poster mentioned moose; they can be very mean and onery, watch them as well).  If you are going into lion country take a medium to large sized gun.

If you dont like guns bring track shoes, sat phone and a trauma kit.  I dont even mean for anyone to shoot a wild animal but you do what you need to do to survive.  If cracking off a .44 mag in the air will stop a bear do that, if a cougar could care less about your .357 going off then put one into his body or head and he will leave you alone.

I like animals and nature and would never want to kill something unless it is on a licensed hunt (which is fairly rare when I will even do that) but I always have something that will sling lead when camping, fishing (in the mountains) or hiking.  I prefer large caliber revolvers......


----------



## MA-Caver (Aug 13, 2009)

Hudson69 said:


> If you dont like guns bring track shoes, sat phone and a trauma kit.  I dont even mean for anyone to shoot a wild animal but you do what you need to do to survive.  If cracking off a .44 mag in the air will stop a bear do that, if a cougar could care less about your .357 going off then put one into his body or head and he will leave you alone.


Well not necessarily... you hit it wrong and you just might piss it off... want to tangle with a pissed off 130 pound cat? :lol: neither would I.... so sacrifice a hand and stick the barrel into it's mouth *THEN* pull the trigger... bear, cougar, whatever! 



Hudson69 said:


> I like animals and nature and would never want to kill something unless it is on a licensed hunt (which is fairly rare when I will even do that) but I always have something that will sling lead when camping, fishing (in the mountains) or hiking.  I prefer large caliber revolvers......


True... but give the animals a chance... wear a annoying loud bell on your pack to give it warning that something annoying and loud is coming their way... odds are in your favor that it'll skedaddle long before you even realize it's there... especially momma bears with cubs... they'd rather get out of YOUR way than you get into theirs... which would be a very bad thing indeed. 
Hang your food up out of reach of animals when camping. If it's too tall for YOU to reach then go up another 2-3 feet if possible to make it out of a 7-9 foot tall bear's reach. 
Use common sense and be alert ... you can still have a good time out there in the wilderness. 
I usually do.


----------



## Hudson69 (Aug 15, 2009)

I for one would rather have it (a gun) and not need it than need one and not have it.  As far as what MA-Caver mentioned wearing bells in bear country is part of the preparation and having more than a single shot firearm that you have trained with is another part of that equation. But to each their own.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

Er, we have the Loch Ness monster and on the coast some predatory seagulls?
Hiking here sounds so much less 'fun'! the biggest problem we have to contend with, and it is a killer, is the weather. Up on the moors, hills and mountains we have sudden changes of weather and idiots who go out unprepared.
We don't have any dangerous animals though we have one poisonous snake, the adder, which you'd be very unlucky to have bite you. No rabid animals either. However a woman did get trampled to death by a herd of cows up near me recently. Turned out she was a veterinary surgeon and should have known better, she took her dog into a field with mothers and their calves.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/22/woman-trampled-cows-yorkshire






Your big cats, bears and wolves sound far more exciting!


----------



## jarrod (Aug 15, 2009)

"america, **** yeah!"

wild animals, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightening & wildfires do make things more interesting, imo.

jf


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

I suppose I should have mentioned the wild haggis up in the Highlands of Scotland, a bit of an endangered species these days but ferocious all the same if cornered. Worth hunting though as the tame ones don't taste the same.


----------



## Cirdan (Aug 26, 2009)

The mosquito up in nothern Norway.. they are so big they work in pairs where one holds you down and his buddy sucks you dry!

Anyway the fear and stupidity of tourists in the mountains never cease to suprise me.. one guy spotted some tracks the thought was wolverine (fox actually)and ran all several miles back to the hotel fearing for his life and thinking the bloodthirsty animal was following him. (fat chanse, they can smell you literally miles away and avoid people)
Two women decided to climb a peak wearing dresses and high heels. When it started to rain they got stuck up there. A helicopter had to bring them down, luckily they were spotted from the air because they had undressed and spread the bright red dresses over the rock.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 26, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> *The mosquito up in nothern Norway.. they are so big they work in pairs where one holds you down and his buddy sucks you dry!*
> 
> Anyway the fear and stupidity of tourists in the mountains never cease to suprise me.. one guy spotted some tracks the thought was wolverine (fox actually)and ran all several miles back to the hotel fearing for his life and thinking the bloodthirsty animal was following him. (fat chanse, they can smell you literally miles away and avoid people)
> Two women decided to climb a peak wearing dresses and high heels. When it started to rain they got stuck up there. A helicopter had to bring them down, luckily they were spotted from the air because they had undressed and spread the bright red dresses over the rock.


 
I think they go on holiday in Northern Scotland! 

I know Sweden does but don't if you do, have problems with elks wandering onto the roads? Huge things to bump into! I'm not sure how they do it either because from the article I as reading the roads in northern Sweden are quite deserted and there's huge areas of wilderness yet the elks manage to find the one car that happens to be travelling to get knocked down by.


----------



## Cirdan (Aug 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I know Sweden does but don't if you do, have problems with elks wandering onto the roads? Huge things to bump into! I'm not sure how they do it either because from the article I as reading the roads in northern Sweden are quite deserted and there's huge areas of wilderness yet the elks manage to find the one car that happens to be travelling to get knocked down by.


 
We got the Elk problem here in Norway too, not just up north but also a bit in the south. The elks appear to love crossing roads in the morning when people are driving to work. Nearly hit one myself once. They generally are moving foreward so you should aim for the elk`s *** and you will not hit anything.. unless you really want your car destroyed and a ton of elk meatballs.

Magnificient animals by the way, used to run into the odd wandering one back when I was a kid growing up in the country. Oh, and elk sausages taste great.


----------

