# Instructor hurt me with a pressure point to eye



## angelmuffin (Nov 8, 2006)

I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug. He called me over and told me to get him in a bear hug. He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor. I guess his ego needed to prove a point. I was pretty angry afterwards as I just thought this was all about his ego and virtually nothing else. I essence, he was saying, I am the boss of my do jang. I wanted to approach him, but did not want to make waives. He is very pig headed at times as it is his way or the highway. How do I approch this? Do I just let it go? It is the following day and my eye still hurts a little. I need sound advise!


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## Bigshadow (Nov 8, 2006)

I hope you feel better soon.

Was he doing that to show off, or was he doing that to demonstrate a possible way to get out of it?  It could be taken either way.  I don't know your instructor, but, based on my own experience, training can sometimes be painful.  Generally, not enough to be injured, though.  Of course if it was purely ego, then that would not be a good example to set for the students.

One other thing, regardless of the why, it sounds like it is possible he got carried away with things and went too far.

Just my initial thoughts.


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## Lisa (Nov 8, 2006)

No Instructor should ever do that to a student to prove a point.  The Instructor should be the responsible one in the class because he should be well aware of how damaging what he is teaching can be.  I am apalled that he would do this to one of his students.

You say that he is pigheaded, I say that what he did is abuse and shouldn't be tolerated.  Has he done anything like this to anyone else?  Have you had any similar experiences?  If so, leave the school.  Why would you give your money to someone with an ego so large that he needs to hurt you to prove a point.  Your vision is not something to play around with.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 8, 2006)

Training can definately be *painful*.  If your instructor however did put his/her finger into your eye socket that is pretty *rough training* in my opinion.  It is definately an effective technique but unfortunately it is one of those techniques that can do alot of damage with minimal effort.  I do not put fingers, etc. in eye sockets when demonstrating a technique.  In my opinion it is just to dangerous.  I would talk to your instructor and try and work things out.  Good luck and I hope that you feel better soon.


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## MJS (Nov 8, 2006)

angelmuffin said:


> I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug. He called me over and told me to get him in a bear hug. He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor. I guess his ego needed to prove a point. I was pretty angry afterwards as I just thought this was all about his ego and virtually nothing else. I essence, he was saying, I am the boss of my do jang. I wanted to approach him, but did not want to make waives. He is very pig headed at times as it is his way or the highway. How do I approch this? Do I just let it go? It is the following day and my eye still hurts a little. I need sound advise!


 
You know your inst. better than any of us, so you'd be the best one to know if it was intentional or not.  Injuries are a part of training, however, there is a big difference between an accident and intentional.  

If your eye is still bothering you, I'd have it looked at by an eye doctor.  You only get one set of eyes.  As for your inst...I'd talk to him one on one about it.  If this is going to be a common practice with him, and he has that 'my way or the highway' attitude, then I'd hit the highway.

Good luck!

Mike


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## iron_ox (Nov 8, 2006)

Hello all,

Sounds like a few things are going on here.

First, no instructor EVER has the right to hurt a student - PERIOD.  If the student is that much of a problem, they should be talked to or asked to leave.

After my experiences with being hurt on purpose for "training" I would say leave.

However, I will temper that by saying that maybe you are going overboard in your own training.  If you are good at grappling, great, but if you are making it impossible for other students to TRAIN by being a showoff, maybe you have an attitude problem you need to check yourself.

Training is about everyone getting better - and having someone who is strong in one area can be great for others to train with - but when strength in an area becomes too "showy" its just a pain for everyone else to train with that person.

Overall, two lessons to be learned here, but the instructor sounds like they have a real communication problem.  I would be seriously concerned about progression at a dojang like this because the instructor never wants to be "dethroned" by one of his own students.  Ultimately, have students better than me is my goal at my dojang...

On the subject of pain in training, yes, training should make you sore, but should never hurt you - we are learning as art of defense, if you are crippled in training, you are useless to yourself and others in a time of real need.


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## exile (Nov 8, 2006)

iron_ox said:


> Hello all,
> ...maybe you are going overboard in your own training.  If you are good at grappling, great, but if you are making it impossible for other students to TRAIN by being a showoff, maybe you have an attitude problem you need to check yourself.



Iron Ox---I agree with your post in general, but I don't think there's anything in the initial post in the thread to indicate that this student is a showoff. Being good, and knowing it, doesn't mean that you have an attitude problem---but even if there _were_ such a problem, it couldn't possibly justify the use of a dangerous technique in training as a substitute for a candid chat with the student about the hypothetical problem. 

If eye attacks are going to be part of training, then some substitute for an actual damaging strike should be part of the training code. Iain Abernethy, in his book _Bunkai-Jutsu_ on combat-effective kata bunkai, discusses the streetfight-oriented `sparring' methods he uses in his dojo to get people to learn and automatically implement the rather nasty applications concealed within karate patterns. They go pretty much all out there, but some things are off limits---actual groin strikes, hard blows to the throat, neck twists and eye strike---stuff that can _easily_ be permanently damaging or, with a bit more force, lethal. IA's method uses a system of light touches to these ultra-vital areas: if you can connect lightly with any of them, that translates into an absolute finish to the fight, simply because a more forceful application in a real physical conflict is going to end it---and maybe your assailant---then and there. 

This approach seems to me to make a lot of sense, as a way to maximize the realism of combat without actually permanently damaging, crippling or killing anyone. A very hard `block' which is actually a strike to the upper arm may be very painful, but likely only temporarily incapacitating, and if someone wants training for realistic combat situations, it's probably a price s/he'll be willing to pay. But with eyes, etc., there should be some substitute for actual damage. If this instructor carried out that eye strike deliberately, absolutely nothing can excuse it. And if it was accidental... well, I'd say there's a major technical problem on the instructor's part.


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## Drac (Nov 8, 2006)

angelmuffin said:


> I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug. He called me over and told me to get him in a bear hug. He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor. I guess his ego needed to prove a point. I was pretty angry afterwards as I just thought this was all about his ego and virtually nothing else. I essence, he was saying, I am the boss of my do jang. I wanted to approach him, but did not want to make waives. He is very pig headed at times as it is his way or the highway. How do I approch this? Do I just let it go? It is the following day and my eye still hurts a little. I need sound advise!


 
That is WRONG on so many levels..I've been thrumped around pretty good in training , but NO Sensei, Sifu, Master etc...etc.. ever jamed a finger in my eyes UNLESS it was an accident..


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## angelmuffin (Nov 8, 2006)

"maybe you have an attitude problem you need to check yourself.

Training is about everyone getting better - and having someone who is strong in one area can be great for others to train with - but when strength in an area becomes too "showy" its just a pain for everyone else to train with that person."

 I have no attitude problem at all. He asked me to place him in a bear hug. I have seen him hurt other people in different ways, ie. strong ti kicks to a red belt, but this is the first time he did an eye jam that I know of. I will speak to him today and post HIS response on this board. I am goin to explain to him how he hurt me and ask what his intent was. If I do not like his attitude or response, I will leave his Do jang. My eyes are too important. I train hard and fair and never excessive. This is his responsibiltiy and actions, not mine.


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## shesulsa (Nov 8, 2006)

1.  There's no way I can know everything about your situation to give you a qualified answer.  Some Korean masters are known for off-the-chart training.  What other things does he demonstrate that indicate to you this was nothing more than an ego boost?

2.  Try and block next time.

*edit*

I just read your response which was posted while I was typing this.  Can't hurt to ask, but keep your guard up.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 8, 2006)

angelmuffin said:


> He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor.


 
What he did was wrong.

I agree with Drac, I have had instructors throw me around, kick, punch and joint lock me and sometime that hurts, it is all part of training. But I have NEVER had any poke me in the eye unless it was by accident.


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## Jade Tigress (Nov 8, 2006)

Lisa said:


> No Instructor should ever do that to a student to prove a point.  The Instructor should be the responsible one in the class because he should be well aware of how damaging what he is teaching can be.  I am apalled that he would do this to one of his students.
> 
> You say that he is pigheaded, I say that what he did is abuse and shouldn't be tolerated.  Has he done anything like this to anyone else?  Have you had any similar experiences?  If so, leave the school.  Why would you give your money to someone with an ego so large that he needs to hurt you to prove a point.  Your vision is not something to play around with.



I'm with Lisa on this. Get your eye checked by a doctor. If you decide to stay, and similar things continue to happen, with you getting injured, you will have a record of it in the form of medical records. An instructor should know and demonstrate control.


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## DavidCC (Nov 8, 2006)

angelmuffin said:


> I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug. He called me over and told me to get him in a bear hug. He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor. I guess his ego needed to prove a point. I was pretty angry afterwards as I just thought this was all about his ego and virtually nothing else. I essence, he was saying, I am the boss of my do jang. I wanted to approach him, but did not want to make waives. He is very pig headed at times as it is his way or the highway. How do I approch this? Do I just let it go? It is the following day and my eye still hurts a little. I need sound advise!


 
Did he just poke you in the eye without a word to the class and then walk away?

or was he teaching and demonstrating?  

There is not nearly enough info in your post to make a valid judgement.  although that has not stopped some from doing so LOL.


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## angelmuffin (Nov 8, 2006)

DavidCC said:


> Did he just poke you in the eye without a word to the class and then walk away?
> 
> or was he teaching and demonstrating?
> 
> There is not nearly enough info in your post to make a valid judgement. although that has not stopped some from doing so LOL.


 

He was teaching the one student I out in the bear hug as how to get out of the bear hug. He did demonstrate on me, on my eye. I am seeing him today to discuss this.


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## DngrRuss (Nov 8, 2006)

First of all, accidents happen.  However, they should happen less and less when seniors and instructors are involved.  They should be the very defination of control and, especially when they are demonstrating a technique against a reasonably compliant partner, should go slow and precise to show just how the technique functions.

Second, if you can poke an eye, you can simply touch an eye.  I have done the same thing to students (oddly enough, those who wrestle in jr. high and high school and get a bit of an ego) and impress upon them that their eyes, lips, faces, et.al. are all at risk against someone fighting for their safety, not for points.  I agree with Iron Ox above, mostly.  I do think that an instructor has a responsibility to inflict a degree of pain on his students, so that that student learns as much as he can about the nature of that specific pain, as well as pain in general- thus the old saying, "cry in training, laugh in combat."  But, there is a big difference between pain and injury.  Eyes specifically should be off limits with any pain or submission technique.  You can learn how to do those techniques without inflicting pain and injury on your partner, as opposed to an armbar for example.

In short, I think your instructor either was careless or an ***.  Either way, I would reconsider training with him.  You would be better off finding and instructor who gets his jollies watching his students succeed, rather than get his ego twisted and feel the need to prove a point to said student.

Now, of course, this opinion is based solely on your statement.  I do know that there are 2 sides to every story.  I also agree with Iron Ox that you should honestly examine your behavior to see if there was anything you did to invoke this action from your instructor.  But even if you were being a complete jerk, there is no excuse for injuring a student and specifically injuring an eye.


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## iron_ox (Nov 8, 2006)

angelmuffin said:


> I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug.


 

Hello all,

Sorry if the last post came off vague.

First and foremost, instructors should NEVER hurt students for any reason.

OK, that said.

Now, reading the above quote from the first post, that is attitude, and again, I didn't say it was a bad thing, but some people don't like to be challenged in "their house" - so maybe part of what happened is stemming from this.

You say you train hard, and fair, then fair enough.  Your initial sentence was very self important - eg attitude, hence my response, so, before you get frustrated with a response based on what YOU wrote, read everything again.

Hope all gets straightened out with your instructor - but again, in my opinion, unless the act was purely an accident, leaving that dojang is the best option.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 8, 2006)

angelmuffin said:


> I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug. He called me over and told me to get him in a bear hug. He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor. I guess his ego needed to prove a point. I was pretty angry afterwards as I just thought this was all about his ego and virtually nothing else. I essence, he was saying, I am the boss of my do jang. I wanted to approach him, but did not want to make waives. He is very pig headed at times as it is his way or the highway. How do I approch this? Do I just let it go? It is the following day and my eye still hurts a little. I need sound advise!


Let it go. I detect some attitude in your post. He was only pointing out you have long way to go. You can still see, and now have a counter in your arsenal you know works against over confident people.
Sean


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## Robert Lee (Nov 8, 2006)

Did you offere resistance to his eye poke at first perhaps he applied more pressure showing it could still work with resistance. Was this a first in some like this by the instructor. I feel in the M A you will get the bumps and bruises if you want to learn Also as an instructor. I have been injured many times by students because You work with them And they make mistakes to.  You might tell him your eye is still sore And see how he responds.


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## bobster_ice (Nov 8, 2006)

angelmuffin said:


> I need some sound advise. I am a blue belt and very good at wrestling and grappling. Definately, the best in my school and my chief instructor knew it. After getting a student in a front bear hug. He called me over and told me to get him in a bear hug. He then proceeded to jam his finger in my eye socket causing me serious pain dropping me to the floor. I guess his ego needed to prove a point. I was pretty angry afterwards as I just thought this was all about his ego and virtually nothing else. I essence, he was saying, I am the boss of my do jang. I wanted to approach him, but did not want to make waives. He is very pig headed at times as it is his way or the highway. How do I approch this? Do I just let it go? It is the following day and my eye still hurts a little. I need sound advise!


 
I dont think poking people in the eye is aloud during martial arts training.


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## angelmuffin (Nov 8, 2006)

I just got back from a lengthy discussion with him. I think we got through to one another about our feelings and concerns. He was very concerned and said if he felt he had hurt me, he apoligized. It was very genuine. He did stand behind the fact that he knew exactly what he was doing and knew he would not injury me. I then explained how he had not done it to anyone else, and he believed that I had the ability to endure it, but he did understand and should genuine concern. We both agreed that this was a growing experience for both of us and I will continue to train with him as I believe he is in fact, a difficult teacher, yet a very good one.


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## Jade Tigress (Nov 8, 2006)

angelmuffin said:


> I just got back from a lengthy discussion with him. I think we got through to one another about our feelings and concerns. He was very concerned and said if he felt he had hurt me, he apoligized. It was very genuine. He did stand behind the fact that he knew exactly what he was doing and knew he would not injury me. I then explained how he had not done it to anyone else, and he believed that I had the ability to endure it, but he did understand and should genuine concern. We both agreed that this was a growing experience for both of us and I will continue to train with him as I believe he is in fact, a difficult teacher, yet a very good one.




That's good news. I'm glad you worked it out. Good luck with your training.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 8, 2006)

I'm glad everything worked out!


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## Bigshadow (Nov 8, 2006)

I am glad you got that worked out!


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## The Kidd (Nov 8, 2006)

Good job of not having a knee jerk reaction and being mature and talking with him about it. You proved to him and yourself your the upfront honest adult. Good luck, and maybe next time you go to class you can come in wearing goggles (just kidding!)


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## Brad Dunne (Nov 8, 2006)

Do yourself a BIG favor............Find another school.........

Several have stated that this should not have happened. Regardless of any attitude some may feel you have shown via your posts, a disciplined and caring instructor should never inflict potential serious pain and or damage to a student. As for his statement that he knew what he was doing and that he would not cause you injury, was just a load of defensive crap because you called him on his actions. Soft tissue areas respond differently from person to person and eyes are not the strongest body parts. You could have lost that eye. Consider yourself and him very lucky that it did not happen.


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## bignick (Nov 8, 2006)

There's a difference between hurting and injuring.  Getting hurt is part of any physical activity.  Getting injured isn't.  When your hurt there's pain, but it goes away shortly after.  Getting injured causes serious, lasting harm.  If you believe he meant to injure you...find a different instructor.  Regardless, if you don't enjoy his instructing and enviroment...leave.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 8, 2006)

bobster_ice said:


> I dont think poking people in the eye is aloud during martial arts training.


 I don't see why not. Are you aware of some law that I am not?
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 8, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:


> Do yourself a BIG favor............Find another school.........
> 
> Several have stated that this should not have happened. Regardless of any attitude some may feel you have shown via your posts, a disciplined and caring instructor should never inflict potential serious pain and or damage to a student. As for his statement that he knew what he was doing and that he would not cause you injury, was just a load of defensive crap because you called him on his actions. Soft tissue areas respond differently from person to person and eyes are not the strongest body parts. You could have lost that eye. Consider yourself and him very lucky that it did not happen.


I think you are over reacting. It was only an eye poke.
Sean


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## Carol (Nov 8, 2006)

angelmuffin said:


> I just got back from a lengthy discussion with him. I think we got through to one another about our feelings and concerns. He was very concerned and said if he felt he had hurt me, he apoligized. It was very genuine. He did stand behind the fact that he knew exactly what he was doing and knew he would not injury me. I then explained how he had not done it to anyone else, and he believed that I had the ability to endure it, but he did understand and should genuine concern. We both agreed that this was a growing experience for both of us and I will continue to train with him as I believe he is in fact, a difficult teacher, yet a very good one.


 
That is great news that it all worked out Angel!  

I hope you keep posting to share how your training is going.


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## Brad Dunne (Nov 8, 2006)

I think you are over reacting. It was only an eye poke.

:erg: only an eye poke!.......... and nothing remotely serious could ever result from only an eye poke, uh! OK!....:shrug: What ever was I thinking...


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## fireman00 (Nov 8, 2006)

You know your instructor best but he does this on a frequent basis, like an Alpha male showing who is the boss, then it might be time to look somewhere else.  If it was an accident - and God knows they happen - then no big deal.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 8, 2006)

Brad Dunne said:


> I think you are over reacting. It was only an eye poke.
> 
> :erg: only an eye poke!.......... and nothing remotely serious could ever result from only an eye poke, uh! OK!....:shrug: What ever was I thinking...


This the "Martial" arts. Its good to feel an eye poke once in a while. Its good to train with that pain. How are you going to survive a street encounter if you want to take your ball and go home once it happens. If it drags your attitude down, its an issue that needs to be faced.
Sean


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## MJS (Nov 8, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> This the "Martial" arts. Its good to feel an eye poke once in a while. Its good to train with that pain. How are you going to survive a street encounter if you want to take your ball and go home once it happens. If it drags your attitude down, its an issue that needs to be faced.
> Sean


 


> I think you are over reacting. It was only an eye poke.
> Sean


 
Sorry Sean, I have to disagree.  As I said, I've had my share of bumps, bruises, cuts and scrapes, but I don't know about you, but I have a job that I need to go to everyday.  I need my eyes, my ears, my arms, and legs.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't kick up the pace a bit during training, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere.  So, going on your post, we should all train knife disarms full speed with a real blade, and if my partner gets it good in the gut, well, too bad because thats what'll happen in the real world?

Sorry to come off harsh, but I just can't see the logic in your posts.

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 8, 2006)

MJS said:


> Sorry Sean, I have to disagree. As I said, I've had my share of bumps, bruises, cuts and scrapes, but I don't know about you, but I have a job that I need to go to everyday. I need my eyes, my ears, my arms, and legs. I'm not saying that we shouldn't kick up the pace a bit during training, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. So, going on your post, we should all train knife disarms full speed with a real blade, and if my partner gets it good in the gut, well, too bad because thats what'll happen in the real world?
> 
> Sorry to come off harsh, but I just can't see the logic in your posts.
> 
> Mike


The eyes and groin get hit all the time. The instructor didn't intend harm or the guy would missing an eye. The truth is there is no preparing for blade or bullet wounds. You can't so why try. The eyes are gonna take a hit once in a while. Its something you shouldn't freak out over.
Sean


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## MJS (Nov 8, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> The eyes and groin get hit all the time. The instructor didn't intend harm or the guy would missing an eye. The truth is there is no preparing for blade or bullet wounds. You can't so why try. The eyes are gonna take a hit once in a while. Its something you shouldn't freak out over.
> Sean


 
When I want to pick it up a notch, its usually a mutual agreement between my partner and I.  I dont just take it upon myself to pick up speed, thats how an injury is going to happen.  When I read the initial post by the OP, I, as well as quite a few others here, took it as a shot with bad intention.  The OP talked to his inst. and they worked things out.  Was it a sincere appology? I don't know as I wasn't there.  

Again, I see what you're saying.  Is it good to train hard? Absolutely, but it still needs to be done with some care.

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 8, 2006)

MJS said:


> When I want to pick it up a notch, its usually a mutual agreement between my partner and I. I dont just take it upon myself to pick up speed, thats how an injury is going to happen. When I read the initial post by the OP, I, as well as quite a few others here, took it as a shot with bad intention. The OP talked to his inst. and they worked things out. Was it a sincere appology? I don't know as I wasn't there.
> 
> Again, I see what you're saying. Is it good to train hard? Absolutely, but it still needs to be done with some care.
> 
> Mike


I was raised a bit old school when I started. We don't do half the stuff to eachother now that we used to. We retain more students now LOL, but a lot has been lost in doing so. I agree with you about the "great care" thing.
Sean


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## MJS (Nov 8, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:


> I was raised a bit old school when I started. We don't do half the stuff to eachother now that we used to. We retain more students now LOL, but a lot has been lost in doing so. I agree with you about the "great care" thing.
> Sean


 
I agree with you as well, especially when you said this:



> We don't do half the stuff to eachother now that we used to


 
IMHO, many schools today are afraid of being sued, therefore, contact is kept to a minimum.  

Mike


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## Hapkid0ist (Nov 9, 2006)

You know accidents happen, but if it is intentional, that is a serious issue. Personally, I would quit and advise him that he would be well advised to watch his step in the future and be thatnkfull that he does not have assault charges on him.
That is me.


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## INDYFIGHTER (Nov 9, 2006)

I've had bumps and bruises, even black eyes from training at my school.  Shake it off.  Now that you've experianced what it feels like to have it done to you you know exactly how it will feel when you do it to someone else.  Sounds like he taught you a very effective technique.  If your 13 years old then I'd say it's abuse, if you're an adult and no damage was really done than I'd say it was lesson learned.  I've had that done to me and it hurts.  After pressure is applied to the eye ball they will be sore for a day or so but after that it should be fine.


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## exile (Nov 9, 2006)

INDYFIGHTER said:


> After pressure is applied to the eye ball they will be sore for a day or so but after that it should be fine.



Too close for comfort and too little margin for error. _It takes very little to detach a retina_. No matter how good your control is, you have little control over that sort of thing. A light touch is _more_ than enough to make it clear to someone just how effective an eye strike can be. Anything involving real force is probably much better be saved for a real threat, when an eye is involved...


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## INDYFIGHTER (Nov 10, 2006)

exile said:


> Too close for comfort and too little margin for error. _It takes very little to detach a retina_. No matter how good your control is, you have little control over that sort of thing. A light touch is _more_ than enough to make it clear to someone just how effective an eye strike can be. Anything involving real force is probably much better be saved for a real threat, when an eye is involved...


 

I agree with that but even a light touch will leave you a little sore for a day.  However if an instructor really stuck it to me I'd be upset as well.


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## Drac (Nov 10, 2006)

Pg 57 of Kyusho-Jitsu: The Dillman Method of Pressure Point Fighting _*"just as we would never poke someone in the eye to see if that is an effective pressure point technique"*_


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## Hapkid0ist (Nov 10, 2006)

Eye or not, if it was an accident then I would let it go. Accidents happen all the time no matter how good you are or how long you have been training or teaching. 

If it were indeed intentional, well that is another story and a serious one. That is a dangerous place to keep yourself. It is also assault, and immoral.


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## Last Fearner (Nov 11, 2006)

I know I am coming into this conversation a bit late, but I am going to respond specifically to you and your request, angel.


angelmuffin said:


> I need some sound advise.


I am going to give you my professional advice...

Quit this school immediately, and find another instructor!

The reason I say this is not because of what the instructor did, although I will address that as well. The reason I say to leave this school is because you have a poor relationship with this instructor, and apparently little respect for him.

This is what stands out to me from your initial post:


angelmuffin said:


> I guess his ego needed to prove a point....
> ...I just thought this was all about his ego and virtually nothing else.
> ...he was saying, I am the boss of my do jang.
> ...*He is very pig headed*...


Statements such as these tell me that you do not have the respect for this individual that a student should have for their teacher. No student of mine should ever feel this way about me (that is my goal as an instructor) and I would never train under someone with whom I felt as you have stated (been there, done that! Not good!). Therefore, you and your instructor would be best served if you parted ways presently.

On the other hand. If you truly believe that he is a good instructor, and you can change your attitude, and opinion of him, if you learn to respect him 100% and never utter a negative comment such as "he did that because of his ego," or "he is pig headed," then you might have a good working relationship. This does not mean that he will not make mistakes, or that you will like everything about him, but you must have more respect for him than to say these kinds of things. They reveal an inner, latent personal conflict, and possibly some disrespect you have for him. Resolve this within yourself, or leave.

Now, on to the issue of the "eye-poke." I agree with most of the others here. First and foremost - - *Get your Eye Checked by a Doctor immediately!!*  I have had experience with this issue, and while a sore eye might get better on its own, if you have a scratch or other problem, it could get much worse. An exam by an eye doctor (not advice from an internet Martial Artist) will ensure you are safe, and if treatment is needed, it might mean the difference between having serious problems later or not (an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!)

Lastly, after more than 28 years teaching, demonstrating on students, and being the "victim" of many Grandmasters for "proving points," I have never had anyone intentionally poke me in the eye, and I would never do that to a student. There are options of different levels for "realistic" training, and adults can make that choice, but a student should be forewarned, and agree that training might become "rough." However, this is no excuse for placing a student's vision at risk.

Let me say it clearly . . . *No instructor* has the level of skill to attack an eye socket without risk of causing serious injury or blindness. For any instructor to apply enough pressure on your eye to cause pain, and say that he was in control, and would not hurt you because he knew what he was doing is a lie. If I demonstrate an eye attack, I tell the student to close their eye, then I place very light pressure on the surface of the eyelid to show how the technique is done. *Never* should there be force applied to this area in training.

Virtually every other area of the body can be demonstrated upon with some force to cause slight discomfort or pain that will subside if the instructor is skillful, and experienced in demonstrating, but accidents happen even to those areas. Slightly excessive contact by accident will occasionally result in minor injuries that heal. This can be expected, and is usually unavoidable in combat or self defense training, but the eyes are off limits due to the fact that you can not control the risk of injury, and you can not restore the sight once it is lost.

If pressure point attacks to the eyes are to be allowed in demonstrations, students and instructors should be responsible enough to divert the pressure to the cheek or forehead, and simulate the pressure to the eye. If strikes to the eyes, or "realistic self defense" pressure is to be applied, then eye protection should be worn (IE: safety glasses, or face shield).

Talking to your instructor about this, and expressing your concerns was good! The fact that your instructor apologized is important, and there would be no sense in remaining if he had not. However, if his statement that "he knew exactly what he was doing and knew he would not injury me" is any indication of his false sense of unrealistic self control, and the intention that he might do this again because he feels he was not wrong, then he is a dangerous instructor, and should be avoided unless you are willing to take the risks of eye injury or blindness.

For those of us who learned "old school" (myself included) and still teach some of our adult students "realistic self defense" with increased contact, there is never justification for absence of good common sense and reason when it comes to personal safety, and potentially permanent injury. Angel, if you resolve the respect issue I mentioned earlier, and your instructor clearly demonstrates that he understands his limits in risk management so that you can be assured he will not attack you in this manner again, then it is possible that you could benefit from his instruction. Otherwise, I recommend respectfully withdrawing, and relocating to another school. Others have given you similar advice here - - I suggest you seriously consider it!

Remember....


angelmuffin said:


> I need some sound advise.


Good Luck!
Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart


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## exile (Nov 11, 2006)

A thousand `yeses' to Indyfighter's, Drac's and Last Fearner's last posts. LF's comment is the key here, that no instructor, no matter how good, has enough precision and _knowledge of your particular anatomy_ to ensure that an actual strike to a place as vulnerable as your eye will do no permanent damage. 

The best I would call it is very poor judgment. I'd go with LF's advice, if I were in your position. He's been doing this for a long time---you should take his experience seriously!


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## Drac (Nov 11, 2006)

Last Fearner posts sums it all up nicely...


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## searcher (Nov 11, 2006)

I will agree that Last Fearner is correct.   My school tends to have some pretty brutal training that goes on, broken bones, some dislocations, tons of bruises, but these are things that will heal.   When an instructor starts going after the eyes, ears, or genitalia, it changes things quickly from training to somethig else.   You should get as far away from this guy as you can.   Trust me when I say this you are going to become seriously damaged if you stay there.   If you need help finding another school, lmk.   We can help you find a different place that will teach you, not abuse you.


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## Drac (Nov 11, 2006)

searcher said:


> I will agree that Last Fearner is correct. My school tends to have some pretty brutal training that goes on, broken bones, some dislocations, tons of bruises, but these are things that will heal. When an instructor starts going after the eyes, ears, or genitalia, it changes things quickly from training to somethig else. You should get as far away from this guy as you can. Trust me when I say this you are going to become seriously damaged if you stay there. If you need help finding another school, lmk. We can help you find a different place that will teach you, not abuse you.


 
I agree searcher..Some of the LEO hand-to-hand classes I've attended have been BRUTAL and when I attend a seminar with Father Greek I can barely close my fist or raise my arms by the end of the day..NEVER have been poked in the eye by ANY trainer..


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 11, 2006)

I agree with Last Fearner post. I too come form old school and it could be painful but I have to agree with the points that Last Fearner made. 

WAY back when I started my Sensei (Jujitsu) did have attacks to break locks that included the eyes, throat and bridge of the nose but he NEVER used force and in the case of the eyes he did not use direct contact either and any student that did not listen to him and did would likely end up in a friendly spare with him at the end of class. This generally meant you spent most of your time being thrown to the ground and laying on the ground, but you learned to listen and interestingly enough he never hurt anyone giving those lessons.

I am also likely in for some fairly brutal training here soon as well but I have complete respect for my Sifu and I trust his ability. I will likely be coming home from time to time quite sore but it is all part of the training. But my Sifu has great control and I doubt he would ever attack my eyes directly.


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