# The Japanese idea toward cross training origin



## JohnEdward (May 4, 2011)

I had a very strict Japanese jujutsu instructor, he didn't tolerate much and the consequences for not following dojo rules or protocol were sever.  Most infractions were met with a stern warning, and if that failed with a second occurrence of the infraction, you were expelled from the dojo for life.  Like, if you studied another martial art, or crossed trained in an other martial art you would asked to make a choice. If you didn't make that choice within a reasonable amount of time , like the next practice, you were told not to come back.   

 A component I believe of that behavior and philosophy was the idea you focused on one thing and one thing only. If you where going to be good, you made the sacrifices and committed to one art and its training. Especially, within the first 10 years of training. I was told that this was pretty typical of Japanese senseis of his generation, and it wasn't just contained to martial arts, but also functioned in the Japanese society to a greater extent.  The Japanese, I was told, felt that great dedication equal or surpassing that of an Olympic athlete was the only way to success.  That no divinations from the path or distractions of the goal wasn't tolerated.  Which was really echoed by a friend who spent time in Japan in kendo school and a student was knocked unconscious with a bokken for not paying attention to the sensei's lecture. He wasn't concentrating on the task at hand or staying alert to what was happening during instruction of the task,  his mind started to day dream for a second.  Then WHAM! the sensei hits him on the top of the head and knocks him out cold with a bokken. I have been told by my Taichi instructor who is acupuncturist, (and whose isn't?  ) that that could have kill the student; in Chinese martial arts, the crown of the head is target that results in death if struck hard enough. Talk about whacking someone on the head and not killing them was either a demonstration of great control or dumb luck. So my Japanese sensei fell into that category he was very strict and had that mind set. 

Years ago, my Kendo friend introduced me to the Book of Five Rings, where Mushashi encourages diversity in training, studying other martial arts, and occupations as well. This is in strong contrast to what I was taught to focus on one path. My question is does anyone know if Mushashi's advice was ever widely adopted by the Japanese martial's culture? if not was the Japanese martial arts generally always as I described strict, or is that something of say the last 100 years?


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## Manny (May 4, 2011)

I have to tell you that not every sensei feel happy when they realice his/her student is crosstraining in other martial art, senseis,sifus,sambonims or what ever you call your martial art teacher feel betrayed in some ways when the student crosstraing or even train with another teacher.

I must confess I crosstrained in other martial art without telling my sambonim and some times I felt terrible to not tell cause I feel I was doing something wrong.

Will I crosstrain again? perhaps, I really apreciate learn new things and technikes.

I have had 4 martial arts teachers, three of them would feel ofended if they know I did crosstraining.

Manny


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## Tanaka (May 4, 2011)

JohnEdward said:


> I had a very strict Japanese jujutsu instructor, he didn't tolerate much and the consequences for not following dojo rules or protocol were sever.  Most infractions were met with a stern warning, and if that failed with a second occurrence of the infraction, you were expelled from the dojo for life.  Like, if you studied another martial art, or crossed trained in an other martial art you would asked to make a choice. If you didn't make that choice within a reasonable amount of time , like the next practice, you were told not to come back.
> 
> A component I believe of that behavior and philosophy was the idea you focused on one thing and one thing only. If you where going to be good, you made the sacrifices and committed to one art and its training. Especially, within the first 10 years of training. I was told that this was pretty typical of Japanese senseis of his generation, and it wasn't just contained to martial arts, but also functioned in the Japanese society to a greater extent.  The Japanese, I was told, felt that great dedication equal or surpassing that of an Olympic athlete was the only way to success.  That no divinations from the path or distractions of the goal wasn't tolerated.  Which was really echoed by a friend who spent time in Japan in kendo school and a student was knocked unconscious with a bokken for not paying attention to the sensei's lecture. He wasn't concentrating on the task at hand or staying alert to what was happening during instruction of the task,  his mind started to day dream for a second.  Then WHAM! the sensei hits him on the top of the head and knocks him out cold with a bokken. I have been told by my Taichi instructor who is acupuncturist, (and whose isn't?  ) that that could have kill the student; in Chinese martial arts, the crown of the head is target that results in death if struck hard enough. Talk about whacking someone on the head and not killing them was either a demonstration of great control or dumb luck. So my Japanese sensei fell into that category he was very strict and had that mind set.
> 
> Years ago, my Kendo friend introduced me to the Book of Five Rings, where Mushashi encourages diversity in training, studying other martial arts, and occupations as well. This is in strong contrast to what I was taught to focus on one path. My question is does anyone know if Mushashi's advice was ever widely adopted by the Japanese martial's culture? if not was the Japanese martial arts generally always as I described strict, or is that something of say the last 100 years?



Which form of Japanese Jujutsu were you taking?
And why did you pluralize "sensei"?


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## shima (May 4, 2011)

The only time I cross trained was because my Tae Kwon Do school decided to start offering Small Circle Jujitsu was well, and so it was fully approved for us all to study both styles at once. Other than that I only did other styles if we went to a seminar in said style. Going to another school without permission of the instructor at the other styles I've studied was definitely something that was looked down upon.


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## JohnEdward (May 4, 2011)

Tanaka said:


> Which form of Japanese Jujutsu were you taking?
> And why did you pluralize "sensei"?



I wish I could tell you. I really don't know. Maybe, I should ask his family, if you think it would help? 

I used "senseis" because that is what I was told?


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## K-man (May 4, 2011)

Might it be a mainland Japan thing? In the early days of karate in Okinawa, students often trained with other teachers. I have found cross training in other karate schools and with aikido and systema beneficial. I encourage my guys to look at all other styles whenever possible. 

When I here that someone doesn't want his/her students training elsewhere I immediately think, "why not"? Is there a deficiency in their training their teacher doesn't want them to see? If one of my guys brings back something that we can incorporate into our training I would welcome the input, not feel threatened or inadequate.
:asian:


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## lklawson (May 5, 2011)

Cross training doesn't seem to be a big deal in Judo.  Heck I teach Western martial arts but still go learn at a Judo Dojo.

Historically, going back at least to the 50's cross training in Judo and "Karate" was common.

Maybe you just have to have the right Sensei.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (May 5, 2011)

Tanaka said:


> And why did you pluralize "sensei"?


I see this sort of discussion a lot.  Last time was here on this forum discussing the "right" way to spell Jiu Jitusu (or whatever) in English.

The answer is, because, at this point, the term "sensei" has been anglicized and now the language conventions of English, such as plurality by 's', apply to the term.

Is it a hard, fast, rule?  No.  But it's not wrong either.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## oaktree (May 5, 2011)

Hi John
The point you are refering to in Chinese martial arts is called Bai hui &#30334;&#20250; GV-20

 I suppose you can be killed after all it is the top of your head. But here is an article concerning how hard the top of the head is:
http://www.sports1234.com/martial-arts/2509-2-martial-arts.html

 But to think of it as some magic death spot no.

As for the question about Japanese teachers not letting you cross train.
 Masahiko Kimura trained in Judo and Karate.
   Morihiro Saito trained in Kendo, Judo then Aikido
    Hironori Otsuka trained in Jujutsu and Karate.
    Takeda Sokaku trained in Jujutsu, Sumo, Kenjutsu, Sojutsu.
    There are many more who cross trained. However most had first laided a foundation in their respected arts.

It may be considered rude to train in one Jujutsu school and then behind your teacher's back to train in another. Even if you tell your teacher this he may feel he looses face because you think his teaching is not adequate. But that is in my opinion how a Japanese teacher may feel.


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## Tez3 (May 5, 2011)

lklawson said:


> I see this sort of discussion a lot. Last time was here on this forum discussing the "right" way to spell Jiu Jitusu (or whatever) in English.
> 
> The answer is, because, at this point, the term "sensei" has been anglicized and now the language conventions of English, such as plurality by 's', apply to the term.
> 
> ...


 

Spellings are often different, we don't use z the way you guys do....Anglicised, pluralise etc and we spell 'behaviour' differently as we do 'defence' ie self defence. It would make boring reading if we constantly commented on spellings espcially when we know what people are talking about.


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## punisher73 (May 5, 2011)

As with all things it probably depends on the history of the style and it's founder.  If you came through a lineage that traces it roots to someone who followed the idea that a teacher/student relationship was a special bond and they didn't just take anyone as a pupil, then they probably passed on that same ideal and so now, the teachers view crosstraining as a disrespect to what they are giving you.

As most westerners we don't see this bond because we are paying for a service.  We go into one of many schools offering their art for sale and we get to pick what we want.  Many times people feel no more loyalty to the school than they do their cable company when a better, cheaper service is available or has more of what you want.  So people switch teachers, schools and styles like changing their clothes.

The other aspect is in traditional arts (and others) they view the development of the student as their responsibility and give out material and refinement when the student is ready.  They may view crosstraining as an insult to that process because you are trying to fill gaps/knowledge and not trusting their process.

I'm sure that this is one of those things that you will find instructors on both sides of the fence and it is not just a japanese thing.


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## Tanaka (May 5, 2011)

lklawson said:


> I see this sort of discussion a lot.  Last time was here on this forum discussing the "right" way to spell Jiu Jitusu (or whatever) in English.
> 
> The answer is, because, at this point, the term "sensei" has been anglicized and now the language conventions of English, such as plurality by 's', apply to the term.
> 
> ...


Even when using it in english. It does not need pluralization.
There are even english words that do not get 's for plurazliation.

"I have many Sensei."
no s required

But on second note, It seems to me this guy was training in a school that was trying really hard to follow over romanticized way of Japanese training. There are many Japanese Sensei that train in multiple arts.
I could see what you were saying, if you went behind your Sensei's back. But just because you wanted to practice in another art. That is really overboard.


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## K-man (May 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Spellings are often different, we don't use z the way you guys do....Anglicised, pluralise etc and we spell 'behaviour' differently as we do 'defence' ie self defence. It would make boring reading if we constantly commented on spellings espcially when we know what people are talking about.


 Yeah! But we talk and spell proper!


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## Tez3 (May 5, 2011)

K-man said:


> Yeah! But we talk and spell proper!


 
Like what I do!


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## JohnEdward (May 5, 2011)

Thanks everyone.


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## Manny (May 6, 2011)

oaktree said:


> Hi John
> The point you are refering to in Chinese martial arts is called Bai hui &#30334;&#20250; GV-20
> 
> I suppose you can be killed after all it is the top of your head. But here is an article concerning how hard the top of the head is:
> ...



Hi and nice read your reply, I just want to ask you, in my case I did crosstraining in Kenpo karate (Ed Parker) I am a 2dan TKD Black Belt, why I did crostrain well.... because.... in my dojang sambonim focus on the sport side of TKD and put self defense in a third place something I dislike cause my thing is the self defense learning, so having just one or two clases of self defense once in a while really put me down, I went to a kenpo studuio and there the emphasis was in self defense techs.

Would it be not respectful or lack of taste if I don't tell my TKD sambonim I did (and I want to try it again) crosstraining?

Manny


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## oaktree (May 6, 2011)

Manny said:


> Hi and nice read your reply, I just want to ask you, in my case I did crosstraining in Kenpo karate (Ed Parker) I am a 2dan TKD Black Belt, why I did crostrain well.... because.... in my dojang sambonim focus on the sport side of TKD and put self defense in a third place something I dislike cause my thing is the self defense learning, so having just one or two clases of self defense once in a while really put me down, I went to a kenpo studuio and there the emphasis was in self defense techs.
> 
> Would it be not respectful or lack of taste if I don't tell my TKD sambonim I did (and I want to try it again) crosstraining?
> 
> Manny


 
Hi Manny. My response was more how a Japanese teacher in Japan may feel about the situation though he may not display his disapproval he may feel he is loosing face.
It also depends on the teacher. 

History shows though many Japanese and Chinese martial artist cross trained.
 However, in a more historical setting we find that the person usually started in a base art first and not training in more than one art or similar arts at a time. 

As for answering your question I think being up front about it is a good thing.
 Maybe your teacher can show you how they can be applied in his art, maybe he can show you similar things in your art that you never thought before.


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## lklawson (May 10, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Spellings are often different, we don't use z the way you guys do....Anglicised, pluralise etc and we spell 'behaviour' differently as we do 'defence' ie self defence.


I've found that occasionally I favor british spellings.



> It would make boring reading if we constantly commented on spellings espcially when we know what people are talking about.


Grammar/spelling nazis piss me off.  The two biggest gripes I have in that area are:

1) "Magazine Nazis."  In a gun related thread some person talks about the number of rounds a "clip" will hold in some given handgun.  Then the Magazine Nazis jump all over him about the difference between a "clip" and a "magazine."  Screw 'em.  Everyone knows what the person was talking about and, despite the claims of said Magazine Nazis, they're the only ones who believe that said specific "misuse" marks out the poster as inexperienced or uneducated on firearms.

2) "Makarov Nazis."  Some person posts that their pistol is a "XXXX Makarov" (i.e.: "Polish Makarov," "Czech Makarov," etc.). and the Makarovniks jump all over the poor poster blathering on that the PA-63, P64, or CZ82 (or whatever) is "not a REAL Makarov but only chambered for the 9x18 Makarov cartridge."  Screw 'em.  No one jumps all over a fella for saying he has a "Colt .38" because his revolver isn't S&W.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (May 10, 2011)

oaktree said:


> History shows though many Japanese and Chinese martial artist cross trained.
> However, in a more historical setting we find that the person usually started in a base art first and not training in more than one art or similar arts at a time.


It is said that Ueshiba initially required his students to be yudansha in another art before he would train them in Aikido.

Of course, they say lots of things about Ueshiba.  <shrug>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Bigwill (Aug 30, 2011)

K-man said:


> Yeah! But we talk and spell proper!


We talk way gooder.


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