# Yonkyo and Gokkyo



## jujutsu_indonesia (Dec 20, 2005)

Hello all,

I had a discussion with an Aikikai brown belt, and we showed each other's technique. He showed his joint locks of ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo and gokkyo. Much of his techniques looks similar with some of my Hakko-ryu techniques, though most of the times the "feelings" are different.

I noticed that the  Yonkyo and Gokkyo is always preceded by Ikkyo or Sankyo. Are these two (Yonkyo and Gokkyo) considered as simply pinning variants/ending variants of the first three?


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## TheBattousai (Dec 20, 2005)

Not in the least, it just depends on the instructor's interprotation, it may just seem that way from your perspective. As for the simularities between your art and his, the techniques go back further in history than simply Aikido, those techniques I think go back atleast 100-300 years before Aikido.Your school may have some influence from an older system, like Daito ryu.


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## Korppi76 (Dec 21, 2005)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> I noticed that the Yonkyo and Gokkyo is always preceded by Ikkyo or Sankyo. Are these two (Yonkyo and Gokkyo) considered as simply pinning variants/ending variants of the first three?


It debends from attack. Gokkyo is usually made (atleast here) to swinging strikes (Hmm I mean Yokomen/shomen uchi, cutting strike for example with knife) where you can make it without doing Ikkyo or Nikkyo. 
Yonkyo is usually made with Ikkyo start.

I think one of the ideas in Gokkyo is to bind attackers wrist so if he is using weapon he cant use it.
And one of the ideas in Yonkyo is to get nage down when he has something in his hand. (Sankyo is then not so usable)


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Dec 21, 2005)

TheBattousai said:
			
		

> As for the simularities between your art and his, the techniques go back further in history than simply Aikido, those techniques I think go back atleast 100-300 years before Aikido.Your school may have some influence from an older system, like Daito ryu.


 
That is true my friend, how did you know? The founder of Hakko-ryu, Okuyama Yoshiji, was a student of Takeda Sokaku and Matsuda Hosaku (Takeda sensei's senior student) before founding his art in early 1940s. As we all know, Takeda sensei was one of Uyeshiba sensei's teachers.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Dec 21, 2005)

Korppi76 said:
			
		

> It debends from attack. Gokkyo is usually made (atleast here) to swinging strikes (Hmm I mean Yokomen/shomen uchi, cutting strike for example with knife) where you can make it without doing Ikkyo or Nikkyo.
> Yonkyo is usually made with Ikkyo start.
> 
> I think one of the ideas in Gokkyo is to bind attackers wrist so if he is using weapon he cant use it.
> And one of the ideas in Yonkyo is to get nage down when he has something in his hand. (Sankyo is then not so usable)


 
Thank you for the information! Gokkyo looks like something we call Tekubi Karami in Hakko-ryu, while Yonkyo looks like lots of the wrist bends/tekubi dori in the Yondan-gi series. It is usually used to take away swords and knifes.


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## TheBattousai (Dec 22, 2005)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> That is true my friend, how did you know?


 
Research my friend, Research!


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## amir (Jan 1, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Hello all,





			
				jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> I had a discussion with an Aikikai brown belt, and we showed each other's technique. He showed his joint locks of ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo and gokkyo. Much of his techniques looks similar with some of my Hakko-ryu techniques, though most of the times the "feelings" are different.
> 
> I noticed that the Yonkyo and Gokkyo is always preceded by Ikkyo or Sankyo. Are these two (Yonkyo and Gokkyo) considered as simply pinning variants/ending variants of the first three?




The names you gave for these techniques were "1st technique, 2nd technique, ... 5th Technique". Slightly different traditions may use those same names for other techniques. Hence any answer given to you would assume you are using the same name methodology which isn't always true.

Amir


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## theletch1 (Jan 1, 2006)

amir said:
			
		

> The names you gave for these techniques were "1st technique, 2nd technique, ... 5th Technique". Slightly different traditions may use those same names for other techniques. Hence any answer given to you would assume you are using the same name methodology which isn't always true.
> 
> Amir


And some of us don't use the japanese terminology at all...but as was already said...research, research.  Don't all forms of aikido have a common ancestor in DRAJJ or one of several other arts?  There are, after all, only a certain number of ways that the human body can be contorted and that would explain many of the similarities in most forms of aikido.


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## Yari (Jan 2, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> .........I noticed that the Yonkyo and Gokkyo is always preceded by Ikkyo or Sankyo. Are these two (Yonkyo and Gokkyo) considered as simply pinning variants/ending variants of the first three?


 
Some part of it is the "what if" techniques. If your doing a Ikkyo and your arm, or uke doesn't move 100% with ikkyo, you shouldn't press ikkyo through as an technique, but do something else that fits. And as you've noticed Ikkyo and shihonage are core techniques, and the others are diviations from those, based on "what if-".

Lets say that you want to do an Ikkyo, but your hand that has to grab the elbow misses and goes under, you'll notice that you are on your way into a sankyo. 

Regards
Yari


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## amir (Jan 2, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> And some of us don't use the japanese terminology at all...but as was already said...research, research. Don't all forms of aikido have a common ancestor in DRAJJ or one of several other arts?


 
NO, some of us train in Aikido that is not derived from DRAJJ. 



			
				theletch1 said:
			
		

> There are, after all, only a certain number of ways that the human body can be contorted and that would explain many of the similarities in most forms of aikido.


 
Once you agree different places use different name conventions. You can not refer to SPECIFIC techniques by the name they are recognized in a specific location, since that place might not derive the names in the same methodology you used.


Amir


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## amir (Jan 2, 2006)

Yari said:
			
		

> Some part of it is the "what if" techniques. If your doing a Ikkyo and your arm, or uke doesn't move 100% with ikkyo, you shouldn't press ikkyo through as an technique, but do something else that fits. And as you've noticed Ikkyo and shihonage are core techniques, and the others are diviations from those, based on "what if-".
> 
> Lets say that you want to do an Ikkyo, but your hand that has to grab the elbow misses and goes under, you'll notice that you are on your way into a sankyo.
> 
> ...


 
Good Aikido practice means one does not force any technique, and let the technique come to him. The technique applied should fit the directions of force, position and movement at the moment of application. One should not plan or want a specific technique, because then he would not be open to feel the real situation.

Amir


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Jan 2, 2006)

amir said:
			
		

> NO, some of us train in Aikido that is not derived from DRAJJ.


 
Thank you Amir for this information! The Jujutsu that I learned was derived from DRAJJ. Which Aikido style was NOT derived from DRAJJ? I am very curious!

BTW, are you Muslim? if yes Salaam Alaykum from a Muslim brother in Jakarta, Indonesia!


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## Yari (Jan 3, 2006)

amir said:
			
		

> Good Aikido practice means one does not force any technique, and let the technique come to him. The technique applied should fit the directions of force, position and movement at the moment of application. One should not plan or want a specific technique, because then he would not be open to feel the real situation.
> 
> Amir


 

True, but as in every other aspect of life, nothing is "perfect". Things change second by second. 

What I call perfect is ikkyo and sankyo, and depending on what happens you'll choose the diverations of these.

I do agree you should flow with what ever movement there is, but praticing with people that have never done aikido or MA, does awaken the possibilities that arise in any given situation. So understanding the aproaches of the different techniques /entrances a greater understanding and technique will arise.

/Yari


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Jan 3, 2006)

Maybe we could start by matching Aikido techniques name and Daito-ryu techniques name? I will use Moriteru Uyeshiba's video and Kondo Katsuyuki's video as comparison tools.

AIKIDO               vs            DAITORYU

Ikkyo/Ude Osae               vs Ippondori/Ikkajo no Udedori
Nikkyo/Kote Mawashi        vs Kotezume
Sankyo/Kote Hineri           vs Makizume
Yonkyo/Tekubi Osae         vs ? (considered part of Ippondori?)
Gokkyo/Ude Nobashi         vs Kamatezume
Shihonage                      vs Shihonage
Kotegaeshi                     vs Kotegaeshi
Iriminage                        vs ? (considered variant of Aiki Nage?)

In case I made a mistake, please don't kick me, I practice neither Aikido nor Daito-ryu


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## Yari (Jan 5, 2006)

Yari said:
			
		

> True, but as in every other aspect of life, nothing is "perfect". Things change second by second.
> 
> What I call perfect is ikkyo and sankyo, and depending on what happens you'll choose the diverations of these.
> 
> ...


 
Was reading my input, and sadly I've made a mistake. I didn't mean sankkyo but shihonage. 

Were ikkyo is a technique where the oppenants elbow is lifted, shihonage is a technique were the oppenants elbow is "pushed" down. It's from these two techniques most other tehcniques steem from(aikido wise).

/yari


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## amir (Jan 9, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Thank you Amir for this information! The Jujutsu that I learned was derived from DRAJJ. Which Aikido style was NOT derived from DRAJJ? I am very curious!


 
Korindo Aikido - the style I learn, develped seperatly from other Ju-Jutsu styles (Takanauchi-ryu and others).




			
				jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> BTW, are you Muslim? if yes Salaam Alaykum from a Muslim brother in Jakarta, Indonesia!


 
Actually - I am a Jew from Israel. but I can still bless you with Salaam Alaykum  .


Amir


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Jan 12, 2006)

I heard only good things about Korindo Aikido. Is this the one started by Master Hikitsuchi? Too bad this style isn't as widespread as other styles.

I am glad to hear from a friend in Israel. Sensei also has several friends there, one of them has a Dojo in Jerusalem, his name is Dovid Pfeiff from Wado Dojo Jerusalem. I must say that Japanese Budo friendships really transcends political barriers!


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