# What are your take-down tips?



## spidersam (Apr 7, 2019)

What have you found helps you most when trying to take a heavy opponent to the ground? I study shuai jiao in my KF curriculum. I find myself struggling to take down opponents larger than myself (sparring), yet I’ve seen many short or skinny fighters take others down in a swift motion. What’s your go to for advantage? Getting low? Hip to hip? Or do you weight-lift to get that extra lift strength? How do you get in close or surprise them? What if their kick is too fast or powerful to catch? Would be neat to hear your favorite techniques.


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## drop bear (Apr 7, 2019)

I have recently been focusing on reaching with my feet and not my hands. Which has been helpful.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 7, 2019)

1. Let your leg to do your leg's job. Let your hand to do your hand's job.

PRO: It's fastest.
CON: But you only have 1 leg balance.

2. Let your leg to do the 1st 1/2 of the job. Let your hand to do the 2nd 1/2 of the job.

PRO: It's fast.
CON: Technique is more complicate. You still need single leg balance.

3. Let your hand to do your leg's job.

PRO: You hand have to travel far distance. Technique may be slow.
CON: Since you have 2 feet on the ground, you have the best balance.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 7, 2019)

spidersam said:


> Would be neat to hear your favorite techniques.


Strategy/principle is more important than technique.

1. Get both legs if you can. Otherwise get one leg first, and then get the other leg afterward.
2. Apply throw into one direction, when your opponent resists, borrow his resisting force, throw him into the opposite direction.
3. Use straight line throw, when your opponent resists, change into circular throw.
4. Use circular throw, when your opponent resists, change into straight line throw.
5. If your opponent want to X, help him to do more X than he really want to.
6. If you are right hand person, attack with your left hand first. Make your opponent to think that you are a left hand person.
7. It's better to be inside than to be outside.
8. It's better to be on the top than to be on the bottom.
9. Move from wrist gate -> elbow gate -> shoulder/head gate.
10. Control your opponent's head. His body will follow.
11. Try to let your opponent to sit on your upper leg as a bench.
12. Drag your opponent in circle. Force him to shift weight from one leg to another leg.
13. Try to achieve you have 1 grip on your opponent but he has no grip on you. When he tries to get grip on you, you move in and throw him.
14. If you want to push, you pull first. If you want to pull, you push first.
15. Don't let your opponent's arm to wrap around your waist. When he does that, crack his elbow joint.
16. Don't let your opponent to stay in horse stance. When he does that, spring his leg and force him into bow-arrow stance.
17. Move yourself out of your opponent's moving path, and give him plenty of space to fall.
18. You want to take over your opponent's position. You want your opponent to take over your position.
19. Use momentum to run your opponent down.
20. Never cross your legs in front of your opponent.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 8, 2019)

I'll reiterate what @Kung Fu Wang said: 


Kung Fu Wang said:


> Strategy/principle is more important than technique.



When someone takes a larger opponent down quickly, they've probably done more than one of the following:

Find an opening - someplace (and time) where they've committed their weight (and hopefully some strength) in a direction you can use.
Find an exposed leg. A leg left by itself can be used (as in a sweep or single-leg) or exploited (it indicates there's an easy direction to set them off-balance).
Break their structure (or, if you do #1 well, you've caught them doing this for you).
Use your weight against them, rather than just your muscles.
Depend upon large muscles more than small ones (more leg than arm, more body than hand).
Surprise them.
If you get countered, adjust to their counter faster than they can finish it. (You see this a lot in Judo.)
Only stay with a technique if it's working. If not, change the technique or exit fast (unless you can defend in place, which is done a lot in BJJ).


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## Christopher Adamchek (Apr 8, 2019)

Tips from me being a smaller opponent 

Lifting less

I love to use a breath throw after coming in with strikes 
Reaps, kicking out the opponents leg
Controlling their head more 
Use your full weight with things like sacrifice throws
Many useful takedowns from catching a kick 
Using a weapon (such as staff) to tie up their legs in close quarter


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 8, 2019)

I tell my students over and over again: You need two elements in order to successfully execute any throw or takedown.

1) You need to compromise your opponent's structure and balance.
2) You need to not compromise your own structure and balance in the process.

That sounds overly simplistic, but 90% of the time when I see beginners struggling with a throw, they're missing one or both of those elements. They're trying to force a throw on an opponent who is set in a solid stance with a good base. Or they're throwing off their own balance in the process of entering into the throw attempt.

The other 10% of the time there's usually some technical issue with the specific throw itself.


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## wab25 (Apr 8, 2019)

I'll toss out an odd ball idea for you. This should help with taking down any size opponent... however, it will take quite a time investment as well. 

Take some ballroom dance classes. You first learn to move with another person, whether leading or following, you both move together. You learn to feel what the other person is doing. Not just that they are stepping, but where they are stepping, where their balance is, where their intention is. After years of ballroom dancing, I got to the point where I only need one point of contact, either my hand on the other guy or his hand on me... and I can feel where your weight is, what your intention is, when and how you move.. and I can move with you. You can also learn to do syncopated steps, where you take more steps or fewer steps than your partner, without altering the way your upper body moves.

All of this directly applies to martial arts. If the other guy grabs me and moves me around, I can feel what he is doing and move with him, instead of against him. I can adjust my steps, independently of how my body is moving... only this time adjust those steps to apply a throw, sweep or other take down. Because I am moving with him, until I apply, it can be very surprising for the other guy. 

I am sure there are other ways to learn this type of stuff that is more "martial," but I had a great time learning it this way. It did certainly help me with learning Tony's two steps, mentioned above... Maybe we should call that the "Tony Two Step..."

Anyway, that might not be everyone's path. It might not even be the fastest path. But like I said, I had fun doing it that way. (also, I started ballroom dance years before martial arts... so there is that)


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 8, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I tell my students over and over again: You need two elements in order to successfully execute any throw or takedown.
> 
> 1) You need to compromise your opponent's structure and balance.
> 2) You need to not compromise your own structure and balance in the process.
> ...


The only exception to #2 is sutemi waza (sacrifice techniques), some of which sacrifice balance to bring your full weight into the throw/takedown. Of course, we could cover that by saying it's not compromising anything, but shifting the balance to the direction necessary for the throw. So maybe I just convinced myself there aren't any exceptions.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 8, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The only exception to #2 is sutemi waza (sacrifice techniques), some of which sacrifice balance to bring your full weight into the throw/takedown. Of course, we could cover that by saying it's not compromising anything, but shifting the balance to the direction necessary for the throw. So maybe I just convinced myself there aren't any exceptions.


Exactly. Also you still need good structure.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 9, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Exactly. Also you still need good structure.


And nothing is as humiliating as going for a sacrifice throw while your opponent has his structure. Drop seoi nage --> turning around and dangling from his arm.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> And nothing is as humiliating as going for a sacrifice throw while your opponent has his structure. Drop seoi nage --> turning around and dangling from his arm.


As long as you can borrow your opponent's force, your opponent's structure won't matter.

- You push. Your opponent resists.
- You borrow his resistance force, change your push into pull.


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## wab25 (Apr 9, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> As long as you can borrow your opponent's force, your opponent's structure won't matter.
> 
> - You push.
> - Your opponent resists.
> - You borrow his resistance force, change your push into pull.


But, your opponent's structure does matter. Even in the clip you showed, the first thing that happens, is breaking the other guys structure. The other guy resists, but is never allowed to regain his structure. 

- You push.
- Your opponent resists.
- You borrow his resistance force, change your push into pull.
- *If you have not broken his structure, he will borrow your pull force, break your structure and throw you.*


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 9, 2019)

wab25 said:


> - *If you have not broken his structure, he will borrow your pull force, break your structure and throw you.*


- A linear shaking (fast push followed by a fast pull),
- A circular shaking (clockwise twisting followed by counter clockwise twisting, or the other way around),

can be used to break your opponent's structure.

Example of linear shaking.


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## wab25 (Apr 9, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A fast shaking (fast push followed by a fast pull) can break anybody's structure.


Correct. There are many ways to break the other guy's structure. This goes to show that the other guy's structure is important and must be broken. There are lots of ways to accomplish the this... but it is not optional. The other guy's structure does matter.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 9, 2019)

wab25 said:


> The other guy's structure does matter.


Agree! This is why the general guideline is if you can't crash opponent's structure, you should reverse your footwork and move back.

I usually put marks on the ground. I'll follow that marks to move in. I then follow the same marks to move back.


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## spidersam (Apr 9, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Correct. There are many ways to break the other guy's structure. This goes to show that the other guy's structure is important and must be broken. There are lots of ways to accomplish the this... but it is not optional. The other guy's structure does matter.



This makes sense. I believe I do not cause enough surprise, and I also do not time it well enough—my opponents are too structured when I attempt to throw.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 9, 2019)

spidersam said:


> This makes sense. I believe I do not cause enough surprise, and I also do not time it well enough—my opponents are too structured when I attempt to throw.


You can always start your wresting by dragging your opponent in circle.


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## wab25 (Apr 9, 2019)

spidersam said:


> This makes sense. I believe I do not cause enough surprise, and I also do not time it well enough—my opponents are too structured when I attempt to throw.


You do not have to over power the other guy. When dealing with bigger guys, you probably won't be able to over power them. Thats where moving with them becomes important. If he is pushing, but I am moving in the same direction that he is pushing, at the same speed... he is not putting his power into me. However, he will still be committed in that direction. Now, you can redirect his energy. Just like a punch can have a ton of power, but you can redirect it with very little... same goes for the whole person. So, if he starts to push you, and you move with him, you can then redirect him, which will break his balance and his structure. At this point, if you continue to move with him, maintaining that balance and structure base, you should be able to accomplish any number of take downs. The key is timing and moving with the other guy. You can redirect him or add to his force to break his balance and structure. In Judo, they say "push when pulled and pull when pushed." Same idea, fewer words.

One common mistake, is that once you get to moving with the other guy and redirecting him off balance... is that you stop and don't continue to move with him. Once he gets away, even an inch, he starts to regain his structure... You have to start over. You move with him, as he moves, and continue moving with him as you break his structure and balance and continue moving with him as you redirect him into your take down. Its like staying in the pocket when striking. Once you have done the work to get in and break his structure and balance, stay in and use it.


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## drop bear (Apr 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> And nothing is as humiliating as going for a sacrifice throw while your opponent has his structure. Drop seoi nage --> turning around and dangling from his arm.



Over rotate and then single leg.


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## yak sao (Apr 9, 2019)

What makes someone an expert I think in joint locks and throws is not because they've done them 10,000 times and now they can do them at will.
It's because they've done them 10,000 times and now they recognize where there is the prime opportunity to execute the technique.
As Tony stated, the worst thing to do is to attack them while they are balanced.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 9, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> As long as you can borrow your opponent's force, your opponent's structure won't matter.
> 
> - You push. Your opponent resists.
> - You borrow his resistance force, change your push into pull.


His structure always matters. If you borrow enough force, you can change his structure. If you can't change his struture, he'll still be standing when you try to throw.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 9, 2019)

spidersam said:


> This makes sense. I believe I do not cause enough surprise, and I also do not time it well enough—my opponents are too structured when I attempt to throw.


Some of that is "feel". You have to feel when there's an opportunity, since you can't always recognize it visually (too close, too chaotic). Watch a high-level Judo competition, and you'll see a lot of techniques that start, but stop very quickly - they are feeling the resistance that would stymie the technique, so they don't continue. Then, suddenly, one of them feels just that little bit of shift beyond stable structure (and at that level, it's almost always a very small bit), and BOOM.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 9, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Over rotate and then single leg.


Much better than simply dangling in shame.


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## spidersam (Apr 10, 2019)

yak sao said:


> What makes someone an expert I think in joint locks and throws is not because they've done them 10,000 times and now they can do them at will.
> It's because they've done them 10,000 times and now they recognize where there is the prime opportunity to execute the technique.
> As Tony stated, the worst thing to do is to attack them while they are balanced.



Funny, and accurate!


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## Buka (Apr 10, 2019)

As has been said, you don't take a man down when he is on balance, you take him down when he is off balance. Getting him off balance is key. Lots of ways, but in general -

Move the ears off the line of the hips.
Restrict at least one leg.
Move the hips.

No particular order is necessary. 

As they jokingly call it around here - Whap, splat, li dat.


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