# 9-11 Truthers: Talk about it here



## Twin Fist (Jun 18, 2008)

discuss


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## Sukerkin (Jun 18, 2008)

Actually not a bad idea to create a nexus for such discourse.  

I have to admit that I'm not happy with using "Truthers" as a group noun, it just seems a bit derogatory and dismissive somehow but I'd not actually come across it until you posted it the other day so I'm not qualified to judge if it's insulting or not.

The trick will certainly be to keep debate calm and non-abusive.  Here's hoping everyone can abide by that.


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 18, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I have to admit that I'm not happy with using "Truthers" as a group noun, it just seems a bit derogatory and dismissive somehow



It's become kinda like calling a Marine a Jarhead. It was meant to be an insult, but more then a few "truthers" have adopted the term as there own 'badge of honor'


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## MBuzzy (Jun 18, 2008)

That is true, regardless how others outside the "circle" view this group and their points of view...from what I know of those who hold these views, the term "Truther" is not derogatory in nature (as we know, perception is everything!).  As Cuong said, it is almost a badge of honor for some.

Thought it will be difficult to discuss this topic without throwing a great deal of mud - I personally do not share the beliefs and will put it out there that if you are really interested in the topic, there seems to be more evidence AGAINST this particular train of thought than there is FOR it.  As a Structural Engineer in college during the attacks and having studied them in depth, I can say that many of their central claims are in error.

I will echo Sukerkin here, let's please keep this one civil.  This could be a very interesting discussion!  I would love to hear some of the "other side" when presented from a scientific and objective manner.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 18, 2008)

I've heard so many versions of what happened or what probably happened or what REALLY happened on that horrible day of 9/11 that it's going to be impossible to find out exactly what is the full truth. 
in about 5 or 10 years 9/11 is going to be regulated to the same type of discussions as the Kennedy Assassination(s) and Roswell. In less than 25 years we'll get the "freedom of information act" version of it... which is a thick sheaf of papers with a lot of black lines crossed over certain passages. 

It's frustrating and it's tiring. 

Key points have been brought up and unanswered. The money to finance the operation has been traced (??) but it was "deemed as not an issue" by investigators. 

Why are the confiscated videos of the Pentagon attack from roughly 80 civilian building cameras (including one from a gas station located directly across the street at the point of impact) that surround the Pentagon not been released for public scrutiny? What do they NOT want us to see?


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## mrhnau (Jun 18, 2008)

Been having this discussion with a friend of mine lately. I'll see if I can get him involved. He actually brings up some very interesting points, makes you think. However, he has absolutely no interesting in martial arts, so getting him to join would be difficult 

*waits for UNK to chime in*


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## Twin Fist (Jun 18, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> I've heard so many versions of what happened or what probably happened or what REALLY happened on that horrible day of 9/11 that it's going to be impossible to find out exactly what is the full truth.



no, it isnt impossible

we know what REALLY happened.A good plan worked, better than expected. Our security was a joke, we got hit in the giblets.

"(including one from a gas station located directly across the street at the point of impact) that surround the Pentagon not been released for public scrutiny? What do they NOT want us to see?"

that WAS released, for the Padilla trial. it didnt show the impact.

There is simply NO WAY the truthers version of events works.

they spend MONTHS planning controlled demolitions of EMPTY buildings. You think they could plan and execute TWO in less than nine months without someone noticing?

it simply couldnt have happened the way those people claim it did.


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## elder999 (Jun 18, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> .
> 
> they spend MONTHS planning controlled demolitions of EMPTY buildings. You think they could plan and execute TWO in less than nine months without someone noticing?
> 
> it simply couldnt have happened the way those people claim it did.


 
It *didn't* happen the way those people claim it did, but it certainly could have-at least, it's not like the reasons that you offer are enough to have kept it from happening. 

Do you have any idea how many people pass unnoticed through buildings like the World Trade Center-_every day?_ While the security at the Pentagon offered another level of scrutiny, it too was far from impassable.

In the end, it's Ockham's Razor that applies here: we saw the planes fly into the buildings, and serious engineering and scientific scrutiny of every objection to that scenario says that, well, that's the way it happened.

The planes flew into the buildings, and that's that.


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 18, 2008)

elder999 said:


> In the end, it's Ockham's Razor that applies here: we saw the planes fly into the buildings, and serious engineering and scientific scrutiny of every objection to that scenario says that, well, that's the way it happened.


 
But there was still alot that could have been done to prevent it. Before 9/11 when was the last time we updated our security regulations? Could it happen again? Yes, while more things are no-gos on a plane, it is still very possible to sneak them in, and it does happen. I've heard of people sneaking explosives onto planes, just to go 'see, our security protocols are bunk'. I know the FBI has been doing the same, and getting similar results.

So, the truthers do have a point, our gov. may not have been behind 9/11, they could be blamed for allowing it (kinda like negligant homocide).


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## mrhnau (Jun 19, 2008)

Response from my friend. Might provoke some conversation...


			
				my amigo said:
			
		

> For the 9/11 stuff, you might check out:
> 
> http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=9/11+revisited&sitesearch=#
> 
> ...


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## MA-Caver (Jun 19, 2008)

mrhnau said:


> Response from my friend. Might provoke some conversation...



So with all of that who are we to believe? Hundreds of eye witnesses and testimony and analysis from top experts in their respective fields... or the government?


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## mrhnau (Jun 19, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> So with all of that who are we to believe? Hundreds of eye witnesses and testimony and analysis from top experts in their respective fields... or the government?


This is a response from my friend. Do I believe in the 9/11 conspiracy? I'm not sure. Still not educated enough on the topic. Conspiracies are wonderful, because they are often very hard to disprove. I suffer from a terminal case of optimism, in that I always try to avoid belief in the baseless conspiracy and try to be optimistic of those in charge and my nation. However, sometimes those conspiracies have a meaningful speck of truth in them...


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## mrhnau (Jun 19, 2008)

Just found this on wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_Movement


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## punisher73 (Jun 19, 2008)

This reminds alot of the the attack on Pearl Harbor.  There is a large movement that claims the US intercepted radio transmissions and knew of the attack.  Part of their claim is that most of the integral part of the fleet at Pearl Harbor was moved out just prior to the attack.

They claim very much like the 9-11 truth movement that the gov't allowed the attack to happen to justify entering into a war.  Many people thought it strange that the US entered into WW2 in the European front and not in the Pacific front to fight the people who attacked them.  Much like some people think that the main focus was always Iraq and when the 9/11 smoking gun turned out to be Afghanistan we needed to create something else to invade Iraq.

For the record, I'm not claiming this as my belief just pointing out some similarities between the two conspiracy theories.


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## KELLYG (Jun 19, 2008)

Some of the things that I found interesting in looking at the "conspiracy type stuff.  1 The fire burned in the wtc was hotter than the "fuel"  IE jet fuel could burn.  2. The hole inside the Pentagon was not airplane shaped and very minimal debris. 3. How many buildings fell straight down?  4 Where did all to gold go???

Things that scratch your head.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 19, 2008)

yeah ok. Let's get real here.
Caver, what are "hundreds of eyewitnesses" saying that is in conflict with the government report?  the sound of explosions?

guess what happens to a co2 fire extengisher in a fire? it EXPLODES. Guess wht it sounds like when an several ACRES (thats right, each floor of the towers was a several ACRES of concrete)of concrete three feet thick falls and hits whatever is beneth it? an explosion?

The towers fell from the top DOWN, that isnt how it is done. Controlled demolitions happen from the bottom UP.




More than anything else, there just wasnt TIME to plan it.
Bush got into office at the end of january. He hadnt picked a cabinet yet, because of Mr Gore's hissy fit, so that took up most of feb.

In April, the Chinese forced one of our P-3's to land and held the crew captive.

in july, Bush goes to his ranch for  30 days.

not even 6 WEEKS later, 9-11 happens.

somehow, he was able to plan this all out?

forget that ALL  the 19 hijackers were in country BEFORE the election, forget that a couple were in country BEFORE bush even announced he was running.

Osama ADMITTED he planned the op

KSM ADMITTED he helped make it happen


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## Twin Fist (Jun 19, 2008)

KELLYG said:


> Some of the things that I found interesting in looking at the "conspiracy type stuff.  1 The fire burned in the wtc was hotter than the "fuel"  IE jet fuel could burn."




yes, the fire was trapped in a steel building, with LOTS of flammable stuff inside it. Plus, the heat was trapped inside the building. that mulitplies the heat produced




KELLYG said:


> 2. The hole inside the Pentagon was not airplane shaped and very minimal debris.



yes, airplane wings and tail are mostly hollow(the tail) or filled with fuel(the wings), hiting the building sheared them off.

There wouldnt be much debris left after hitting at full speed.
watch this:





  The only really solid things on an airplane are the engines.  and those were found inside the building.


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## Marginal (Jun 19, 2008)

Nice summation IMO

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jun/18/campos-very-serious-911-untruths/


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## Nolerama (Jun 19, 2008)

Here's the truth about 9-11:

There was a conspiracy to divide a nation. It succeeded. Radical "Patriots" and liberal "Truthers" are now around to hate each other, point fingers, and haphazardly appoint officials to make bad decisions; purely based on emotion.

Both "sides" are guilty.

Since 9-11, we've seen the country split apart by nonsensical propagandists, and allowed our rights (and perceived/assumed) rights taken away.

I don't think there was US conspiracy-type involvement in the 9-11 attacks, but there was definitely special business interest involved in the events (and manipulation of such events) that followed. That's no lie.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 19, 2008)

Aye, a pragmatic view of consequences and precursors is often the best way to resolve your stance on a subject.  As with most analystical or investigative trains of thought, the richest veins are struck when you discuss "Who benefits" and follow the money trail.


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## CoryKS (Jun 19, 2008)

I've heard an anecdote often attributed to Henry Kissenger who, when confronted with reams of "evidence" of a government conspiracy to kill JFK/ stage the moon landing / spread AIDS among black people / retard us with fluoride, was said to reply, "You have a naive faith in the efficiency of the US government."

Folks, these are the people who run the DMV, fergawdsake.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 19, 2008)

I don't have first hand experience of the efficiency with which the US Government manages it's various public departments but I'm in my fifth decade of living with the mess that is petty local authority bureaucracy here in England and I have to say ... good point *Cory* .


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## Twin Fist (Jun 19, 2008)

_Paul Campos is a professor of law at the University of Colorado

ah yes, the same place that employed Ward Churchill.............

*i actually couldnt care less what he thinks or disagree with him more.*

For him to take the SELF STATED goals of the radical islamic groups and call them "_a paranoid fantasy of the first order - one as utterly unhinged from reality as the most extravagant imaginings of the 9/11 Truthers."

that alone lets you know his opinion is worthless

so no, that is in fact NOT a good summation. Sorry marginal







Marginal said:


> Nice summation IMO
> 
> http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jun/18/campos-very-serious-911-untruths/


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## Nolerama (Jun 19, 2008)

This whole discussion only showcases where we get our information from, how we spin it, and how blind we all are to the things that matter most to humanity.

It makes us hate before reasoning with the situation. It makes us act irrationally before we think.

And a lot of us are stuck back in 2001, hating the world around us, regardless of our political views, and ignorant to the needs of the world NOW.

In a perfect world, this would be a great argument, but it's not a perfect world... Because a lot of our emotions are tied to one sad day in America; and those ties will never be severed.

It will take an entire generation to start thinking ahead.

That's how 9-11 destroyed America.


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## Marginal (Jun 19, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> _Paul Campos is a professor of law at the University of Colorado
> 
> ah yes, the same place that employed Ward Churchill.............
> 
> ...


As long as you have a logical reason for dismissing reality.


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## Big Don (Jun 19, 2008)

Marginal said:


> As long as you have a logical reason for dismissing reality.


Way to quote the part of what he said that isn't pertinent. do you try to miss the point? If so, well done!


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## Twin Fist (Jun 19, 2008)

Marginal said:


> As long as you have a logical reason for dismissing reality.



Marginal, the REALITY is that these people want us DEAD

they have been saying so, and WHY for over 20 years.

people like the professor are the ones denying REALITY

or are all the tapes and announcements the islamo-facists make just false flag stuff the president puts out to fool us?


come on dude


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## Marginal (Jun 19, 2008)

It doesn't really matter what some ragtag groups living in caves think about the US if they're incapable of acting on those musings. 

Not sure why living in a paranoid delusion is preferable. Weird enough that most Republicans don't trust the US government to regulate things like oil speculation, but you expect a disorganized loose collection of outliers to band together, magically form a great caliphate, and take down western civilization, further, they're going to force the US to submit to Sharia law with nukes that won't exist for another ten years at best? Nukes with no viable delivery system? This is tinfoil hat territory as I see it.

Why is the 911 conspiracy outlandish because the US government can't possibly pull something like that off, but you're willing to credit that same absurd level of precision to your perceived transcendent enemy?


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## MBuzzy (Jun 19, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> yes, the fire was trapped in a steel building, with LOTS of flammable stuff inside it. Plus, the heat was trapped inside the building. that mulitplies the heat produced
> 
> yes, airplane wings and tail are mostly hollow(the tail) or filled with fuel(the wings), hiting the building sheared them off.
> 
> ...


 
Right on, couldn't have said it better.  It is also important to understand how steel and concrete work under heat.  These buildings are designed for certain fire situations.  Generally we (Civil Engineers) design for XX hours worth of fire rating.  This is a local design criteria based on the average buliding fire temperatures and how long the structure of the building must be protected from the fire.  It details where and how stairways will be laid out, it is the reason for heavy doors with no glass in the middle of buildings, large thick walls inbetween different parts of the buliding, etc.  

WELL, when concrete and steel are exposed to ANY heat, they behave much differently.  First, steel does something that we call "yielding."  Yielding is a GREAT thing to ignore when trying to discount the jet fuel.  Steel's yield temp is well within the range of buring jet fuel.  Ever bent a paperclip a bunch of times?  Is it EVER as strong as it once was?  NO.  That is also yielding...just fatigue yielding.  How about plastic....melt plastic, let it dry....it loses strength.  So does steel.  Add the weight of the concrete and all other floors and BOOM.  Buliding falls.  

I can go into depth about how concrete behaves as well.  Bottom line is this....there are lots of REALLY smart people who fully agree that those planes hitting the buildings were the sole cause of them falling.  Take it for truth or not, but I challenge you to find a REAL STRUCTURAL engineering to disagree.

The bottom line is that Twin Fist is right...I can go into depth about any of the things you're talking about.  They are all 100% explained by simple physics and engineering.  If this was planned, things would have happened differently.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 19, 2008)

Marginal said:


> It doesn't really matter what some ragtag groups living in caves think about the US if they're incapable of acting on those musings.



OBL's money made them capable




Marginal said:


> Not sure why living in a paranoid delusion is preferable.



I can give you 3000 reasons why it is not paranoid or delusional.



Marginal said:


> Weird enough that most Republicans don't trust the US government to regulate things like oil speculation,


i favor government control of the speculation market



Marginal said:


> but you expect a disorganized loose collection of outliers to band together, magically form a great caliphate, and take down western civilization



i dont expect them to succeed, i expect them to kill tens of thousands TRYING. The only way they can succeed is if people keep ignoring the threat or pretending it isnt real



Marginal said:


> further, they're going to force the US to submit to Sharia law with nukes that won't exist for another ten years at best? Nukes with no viable delivery system? This is tinfoil hat territory as I see it.



then you havnt thought it through. The information on HOW to make one is out there, all they have to do is buy the parts, or just BUY one from russia.... and shipping containers are still not inspected.





Marginal said:


> Why is the 911 conspiracy outlandish because the US government can't possibly pull something like that off, but you're willing to credit that same absurd level of precision to your perceived transcendent enemy?



they are motivated by GOD and they have no moral framework telling them NOT to.


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## kailat (Jun 19, 2008)

As for the 9 11 truth movemnt.. did you guys hear bout this?  wow


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## Twin Fist (Jun 19, 2008)

guys are writing the troops and telling them not to fight?

thats textbook treason. and should be prosecuted as such


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## jks9199 (Jun 19, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> This reminds alot of the the attack on Pearl Harbor.  There is a large movement that claims the US intercepted radio transmissions and knew of the attack.  Part of their claim is that most of the integral part of the fleet at Pearl Harbor was moved out just prior to the attack.
> 
> They claim very much like the 9-11 truth movement that the gov't allowed the attack to happen to justify entering into a war.  Many people thought it strange that the US entered into WW2 in the European front and not in the Pacific front to fight the people who attacked them.  Much like some people think that the main focus was always Iraq and when the 9/11 smoking gun turned out to be Afghanistan we needed to create something else to invade Iraq.
> 
> For the record, I'm not claiming this as my belief just pointing out some similarities between the two conspiracy theories.


My understanding is that there were actually several indicators before Pearl Harbor, including sighting of a Japanese minisub, intercepted radio transmissions and diplomatic messages/actions.  However -- the mere fact that there were indicators doesn't mean that they were collated and recognized until (long) after the fact...  Raw data alone is not intelligence until it's gathered, interpreted and becomes "value added."


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## Marginal (Jun 20, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> OBL's money made them capable


Eh. Those accounts have been frozen for years now. What's he done for us lately? Bush "wasn't concerned at all" about the dude for years. 



> I can give you 3000 reasons why it is not paranoid or delusional.


That already happened. Invading Iran etc isn't going to make the towers pop back up again. 



> i dont expect them to succeed, i expect them to kill tens of thousands TRYING. The only way they can succeed is if people keep ignoring the threat or pretending it isn't real


 Emotionalism's nice and all but the facts just don't add up. Police the loose groups of terrorists. However, It's pointless to fight a vast shadow organization that doesn't exist. There is no cohesive terrorist organization. There is no meaningful organization between terrorist groups. That implies to me at least, that this vast middle eastern islamofacist conspiracy has no factual legs. 

There's a threat of terrorism, but that's been present since the nation's founding.



> then you havnt thought it through. The information on HOW to make one is out there, all they have to do is buy the parts, or just BUY one from russia.... and shipping containers are still not inspected.


Shipping containers won't be. Congress won't touch them, and the administration's been completely indifferent to the issue. 

That aside, that assumes they can build dozens of warheads. Not to mention place the things in places of some strategic value without attracting anyone's attention. If they're that capable, why didn't they hit during the confusion of 9-11? Surely OBL could've picked up surplus nukes from Saddam "Yellowcake" Hussein or the Russians etc. 



> they are motivated by GOD and they have no moral framework telling them NOT to.


Yes, there are a handful of organizations that don't collaborate with each other. How does this add up to a solid middle eastern caliphate? How will they dominate the world? They're not even a cohesive group.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 20, 2008)

Good points being made and discussed, gentlemen. 

I do feel, tho', that perhaps we are straying into a conversation about the actual effectiveness of terrorism as a policy changing force rather than what the events of 9-11 were.

Another thing to ponder is that, understandably because this is a largely American populated board, the attack on the World Trade Centre is generally inferred to be an 'attack on America'.  

It took place on Amerian soil, certainly, but it can be more properly characterised as a symbollic blow to the unrestrained global capitalism that the protagonists see as operating to the detriment of their beliefs/countries.  Many nationalities lost their lives that day and many international companies took a financial hit too.

To see it solely as a direct assault on America is to reduce some of the perspectives from which the atrocity can be viewed, which in turn reduces how widely and deeply the search for explanations goes.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 20, 2008)

it is off topic for the thread, but it is important to discuss, PLUS, ideas like Marginal's are WHY some people find it easy to believe the wack job conspiricy nuts. (So it is related, at least marginally....heh heh)

They are simply too afraid to accept that there are MILLIONS of people out there that want them dead. For no reason that makes sense in thier intellectual view of the world, where things like "religion" are artifacts to be discussed rationally and coldly.

So they ignore the evidence, the dead bodies, the claims the islamic facists make themselves, they ignore all of it. Intellectuals have always been cowards in the face of brutal reality. It is outside thier mental frame of reference.

So if all the evidence "simply cant be true" then what is left? ah, that evil genius/idiot Bush must have done it......

*"Those accounts have been frozen for years now."*

1. THEY WERE NOT frozen before 9-11
2. They were only frozen because the president took the steps to do it. The fact we havnt been attacked again HERE is proof that the presidents actions were the right ones.

*"That already happened. Invading Iran etc isn't going to make the towers pop back up again."*

1. Thats friggin cold hearted as hell dude
2. No, but eliminating the groups, killing thier members and keeping pressure ont hem THERE might prevent New York Harbor from getting turned into air pollution. Or San Pedro. Or Oakland. Or Houston. Or Charleston....

"* However, It's pointless to fight a vast shadow organization that doesn't exist. There is no cohesive terrorist organization. There is no meaningful organization between terrorist groups. That implies to me at least, that this vast middle eastern islamofacist conspiracy has no factual legs."*

You are showing an ignorance of military history and how covert groups work bro.

 Small, loosely connected groups are very powerful. If they all worked closely together, one captured prisoner could get them all killed, so they stay seperate, no one person knowing very much. Not to mention that the ENTIRE 9-11 operation involved less than 100 people.

You get that? they didnt need a huge group to make that plan work. You simply dont know what you are talking about.

*"Yes, there are a handful of organizations that don't collaborate with each other. How does this add up to a solid middle eastern caliphate? How will they dominate the world? They're not even a cohesive group."*

many seperate groups, working towards the same goal are jsut as effective as one large group. Perhaps even more so because it is harder to fight 100 battles than just one.

Look at what is happening around the world.

Muslims are settling in countries the world over. Once there, they dont by and large assimilate.

they are converting, BY FORCE in many of those places

the one thing they have in common, RELIGION, is telling all of them that their GOD wants them to do this

They intimidate, WITH THE THREAT OF TERROR ATTACKS anyone who speaks out against it. 

These things ARE happening, we ignore them at our own peril.

As, as a reminder, I am speaking of radical wahabbist. Not every single Muslim on the planet.


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## Marginal (Jun 20, 2008)

Heh. Oh yes, the fear. That's why I don't think this great conspiracy's likely. Let's put aside the facts and basic human nature so that we can view the world much like 1930's Germany did. Only then will we be real men.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 20, 2008)

wow, what a complete non-answer


i thought you were better than that


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## Marginal (Jun 20, 2008)

What exactly did you expect as a response to four paragraphs of "You're a coward! Real men wallow in fear!"?

Don't waste my time with that garbage.

Last reply as this is OT.

1. Stop presenting arguments for current issues with what happened before 9-11 as your basis. The world's moved on. Structures have changed etc. It's not relevant. 

2. Keeping pressure on terrorist *groups* is what I've been advocating all along. Keeping pressure on vague nonentities is another issue. 

3. History paints a much different picture in regards to these covert groups than what you're implying. Small loosely connected groups which frequently fight amongst each other aren't much of a threat. Usually the covert groups that eventually succeed have some form of consensus and a common goal. There's too much infighting among the current terrorist factions to credibly make the claim you're trying to make. 

4. The Economist pointed out a while ago that the US isn't really suffering from the problems with faith related clashes that have been popping up in Europe. We're generally more tolerant of competing religions, and our government's set up in a way that minimizes the friction compared to most of Europe. We're more likely to assimilate incoming groups than not thanks to the constitutional protections extended to religious groups etc. (Ironically the "security" minded Muslimophobics are probably undermining national security more by mistrusting every Muslim they see, every mosque they oppose the construction of etc.)


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## Kacey (Jun 20, 2008)

[playnice]Karen Cohn[/playnice]


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## Twin Fist (Jun 20, 2008)

Well, you could, I dont know,,,, REFUTE what i said.

Or just admit that you cant refute what i said.

Pre-9-11 IS relevant, if for nothing else than to show what NOT to do.....

*"History paints a much different picture in regards to these covert groups than what you're implying. Small loosely connected groups which frequently fight amongst each other aren't much of a threat. Usually the covert groups that eventually succeed have some form of consensus and a common goal"*

thier common goal is to kill infidels. You are wrong, deal with it.

But back on topic, please, someone give me a conspiracy theory about 9-11 that i cant shred in 10 seconds


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## mrhnau (Jun 20, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> But back on topic, please, someone give me a conspiracy theory about 9-11 that i cant shred in 10 seconds


Lets try that then...  how can you explain the presence of Thermite in the rubble of the towers? Thermite has two basic uses: Military usage and building destruction. Pretty much no other usage. The towers were obviously not storing military supplies, and normal businessmen don't carry around copious amounts of this stuff, so can we assume their presence there indicated a controlled demolition?


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## MBuzzy (Jun 20, 2008)

Where was there proof of Thermite presence?


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## mrhnau (Jun 20, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Where was there proof of Thermite presence?



http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/2514/Red_Chips_Thermite_Explosives_found_in_911_Dust/

From post #10 in this thread.


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## Big Don (Jun 20, 2008)

The Popular Mechanics article debunking a lot of this idiocy: LINK


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## MBuzzy (Jun 20, 2008)

mrhnau said:


> http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/2514/Red_Chips_Thermite_Explosives_found_in_911_Dust/
> 
> From post #10 in this thread.


 
The actual question here is what is the SOURCE.  I don't believe that disclose.tv whose primary purpose is to report on topics that others don't believe, such as UFOs, paranormal activity, and other conspiracies is a very reliable source.  

I heard nothing from a major, reputable new source regarding thermite.


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## Marginal (Jun 20, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Well, you could, I dont know,,,, REFUTE what i said.
> 
> Or just admit that you cant refute what i said.


There. Now you sound like a truther.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 20, 2008)

Ok, lets take this and run with it.

lets just say it is thermite the good doctor found.

what are the uses of thermite?

well, it is NOT explosive. All it does is produce heat. You cant use it to take down a building. 

The most common use of thermite is to weld metal together, well, i am sure that's not what the truthers are claiming, so lets look at the other use. 

For CUTTING metal.

well hell, they must have used it to cut the steel supports, right?

nope.

why not? thermite doesnt work slow. it works FAST. The building would have come down in seconds, not in 45 minutes.

plus, what he found wasnt even thermite in the first place

Alex Jones, professional  					conspiracy theorist radio host, has said Jones found evidence  					of thermite. This isn't true. What Jones found was something  					which would have been in the debris pile anyway. Sulfur...
 WTC Thermite
 Sulfur
In Steven Jones' PDF "Answers  					to Objections and Questions",  to support his claim for  					Sol-gels/Thermite he states:
"One molecule, described  						by the EPA's Erik Swartz, was present at levels "that  						dwarfed all others": 1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never  						observed it in any sampling we've ever done,"  ​ However when you look at the  					link he uses
 					http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-hsair0911,0,471193.story?coll=ny-homepage-right-area 
You find out Mr. Jones edits  					out the VERY next line which states
*"He said it was most  						likely produced by the plastic of tens of thousands of  						burning computers."*​ Apparently, Jones felt this  					was not important enough for his readers to know.


----------



## MBuzzy (Jun 20, 2008)

Twin Fist - more excellent points.  Reminded me...I forgot to mention in my first post.  Controlled detonations of buildings are generally done with Shaped charges (C-4 usually), not Thermite.  The intent is to sever the columns and beams at the exact right place at the exact right time.  Thermite is too unpredicatble and it isn't "directable."  It doesn't blast, it just sits and burns.  C-4 can be molded to cut through beams and by using detonators, the blasts are timed perfectly to ensure that the building comes down properly.


----------



## kailat (Jun 20, 2008)

So is noone even going to look at the WTC 7 building?  As to why it fell?  As to how it fell?  I mean it was never even hit!!  It housed all the govt offices for CIA, FBI, etc..

  I mean it just crumbled at what 5:45pm or something like that!  Just out of the blue!!!  

 A TRUTHER vs. a "REALIST"  let's take a look at the too... If the shoe fits..i mean it's been a proven fct that OSAMA was trained by our US GVT.

 Why is it so hard to believe that the GVT didn't just need a fall guy?  Osama and his goons!   Is it true of the 19 hijackers 11 have been identified as still alive?  Still working as if none of this even happend?  How about the 3 jets that were not even supposed to be in the air that day?  The Pentagon -  whow now there's a topic..  Who actually seen a jet fly into the pentagon?  Why ?  

 Are you sure it wasn't a guided missle? I mean is it true they just remodeled and re fortitfied that exact area of the Pentegon for such an disaster just within months of it actually happening. RIGHT IN THAT EXACT SECTION of the Pentagon?  How ironic huh?  

 Funny how our Govt' new the WTC were gonna be attacked yet, done nothing about it..   

 To me its more than a conspiracy- a cover up- yet its more-so a group of coincidences that all come together.  ARE WE ALL BRAIN WASHED to believe the media?  To know what they say is TRUTH!

  How can you be so sure?  It's really unpleasant to me, to see that our GOVT would even do such a thing if they did.  If they didnt' than PROVE IT ALL WRONG and you have my appologies.  

  Im just really, unsure of the whole thing.   I wont' believe what the media says. Sure 2 planes flew into the buildings... that much we saw... 

 There is no disputing that.. But where they really FLights 91 and 93?  Why as all the planes in the sky ordered to be grounded except for MILITARY jets, yet their were witnesses that saw 2 jets not of military type flying obove the Pentagon?  Why was the video tape confiscated at the gas station across the street from the pentagon?  WHere is it?  why have we not seen this footage!!!


 Alot needs to be brought out to light before i believe it was not an inside job..

just my opinion..


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## Twin Fist (Jun 20, 2008)

kailat said:


> So is noone even going to look at the WTC 7 building?  As to why it fell?  As to how it fell?  I mean it was never even hit!!  It housed all the govt offices for CIA, FBI, etc..



it fell because ONE ENTIRE CORNER OF THE BUILDING WAS DESTROYED BY FALLING DEBRIS

did ya miss that part?

guess what ran through that corner?  a fuel oil pipeline. That ignited and fed a fire.
http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm


kailat said:


> I mean it just crumbled at what 5:45pm or something like that!  Just out of the blue!!!



nope wrong again, they knew for HOURS that it was going to fall.



kailat said:


> i mean it's been a proven fct that OSAMA was trained by our US GVT.



yes, in how to fire stinger missles during the russian occupation of afganistan



kailat said:


> Why is it so hard to believe that the GVT didn't just need a fall guy?  Osama and his goons!   Is it true of the 19 hijackers 11 have been identified as still alive?



nope, wrong again, guys with the same NAME have been found. How many john Smith's are there in america?



kailat said:


> Still working as if none of this even happend?  How about the 3 jets that were not even supposed to be in the air that day?



need more details



kailat said:


> The Pentagon -  whow now there's a topic..  Who actually seen a jet fly into the pentagon?  Why ?



hundreds of witnesses SAW THE FRIGGIN PLANE FLY ALL THE WAY INTO THE BUILDING



kailat said:


> Are you sure it wasn't a guided missle?[/quote}
> 
> yes i am sure because HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE SAW THE PLANE
> 
> ...


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## Sukerkin (Jun 20, 2008)

*TF*, it's clear that this is a subject that irks you but I really think you would make better headway by constructing an argument rather than engaging in bullet-point-combat.

I can see that what you think you are doing is deconstructing the opposing point-of-view brick-by-brick but how it comes across is more like an assault on the person you're talking to.

Having an opinion and arguing your case is perfectly fine, it's one of the main reasons a discussion board exists.  Doing the internet equivalent of poking your finger in someones face with "AND I'LL TELL YOU ANOTHER THING!" is not going to win any supporters to your view.  If anything, given the high percentage of martially inclined, morally responsible, thinkers we have here, it's going to undermine your position.

Rationality gets your point across.  Emotionalism does not.

If you don't agree, that's fine but I'd like to see this thread develop into more than just going over the same old ground and it wont if hearts overrule heads.


----------



## MBuzzy (Jun 20, 2008)

Twin Fist beat me to it again, just wanted to add the engineer perspective....



kailat said:


> So is noone even going to look at the WTC 7 building? As to why it fell? As to how it fell? I mean it was never even hit!! It housed all the govt offices for CIA, FBI, etc..
> 
> I mean it just crumbled at what 5:45pm or something like that! Just out of the blue!!!!


 
Actually, it is amazing that no OTHER buildings fell down than what did.  There is a good possibility that WTC 7 would have gone down whether it had been hit with debris or not.  Remember that NYC is built on an island.  Meaning that the subsurface is not as stable as an inland city.  When a major impact like that happens, the shock waves travel down through the superstructure of the building into the underpinnings.  Any building in NYC must have relatively substantial subsurface supports...Caissons, piles, etc.  The bigger the building, the deeper the piles.  Buildings in close proximity would have felt that shock up through their underground support structure, which would have been translated up into the superstructure of the building.  There is actually a concern that many buildings in the close proximity of the WTC have been drastically damaged - damage that we cannot see.  In effect, their service lives have been impacted significantly.  Extra stress on the superstructure that they WERE NOT DESIGNED FOR.  Thse shock waves would not cause an immediate catastrophic failure...its is something that will be seen over time, as the dead loads on the building have more fatigue effects.  The debris which hit WTC 7 is what caused the immediate catastrophic failure.



kailat said:


> The Pentagon - whow now there's a topic.. Who actually seen a jet fly into the pentagon? Why ?
> 
> Are you sure it wasn't a guided missle? I mean is it true they just remodeled and re fortitfied that exact area of the Pentegon for such an disaster just within months of it actually happening. RIGHT IN THAT EXACT SECTION of the Pentagon? How ironic huh?


 
Unfortunately, I can't go into as much depth on this one as I would like to.  What I can say is that a guided missle would have a DRASTICALLY different trajectory and would have impacted different causing completely different failure modes.  The angle of strike on the Pentagon simply could not have been caused by a weapon grade rocket.

As for this fortification....remodeling I wouldn't doubt....but I have no idea where the information about "fortification" came from.  The Pentagon is built of Concrete overlaid on a steel frame.  There is really no way to effectively go BACK and improve the structure without MAJOR changes to the building.  Basically, the would have had to shut down the whole section and tear a lot out for this to happen.



kailat said:


> To me its more than a conspiracy- a cover up- yet its more-so a group of coincidences that all come together. ARE WE ALL BRAIN WASHED to believe the media? To know what they say is TRUTH!


 
This is not the media talking.  These are eyewitnesses and simple physics.  The Media was not doing real investigations...they were simply reporting on what others had done.

Did I mention that I had a Structural engineering/Concrete professor who was called in to advise on the Pentagon damage?  I assure you, this is one of the smartest men I have ever known.....This was an airplane....this was not a conspiracy.  

I would submit that if you believe the conspiracy theories, you should also take the same care to examine to opposing evidence....from reputable sources, i.e. not conspiracy related sources.  Talk to researchers, engineers, professors, scientists, people who were there and witnessed the thing.  If there are doubts, they can easily be refuted by those who were there.


----------



## MA-Caver (Jun 20, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Unfortunately, I can't go into as much depth on this one as I would like to.  What I can say is that a guided missle would have a DRASTICALLY different trajectory and would have impacted different causing completely different failure modes.  The angle of strike on the Pentagon simply could not have been caused by a weapon grade rocket.
> 
> As for this fortification....remodeling I wouldn't doubt....but I have no idea where the information about "fortification" came from.  The Pentagon is built of Concrete overlaid on a steel frame.  There is really no way to effectively go BACK and improve the structure without MAJOR changes to the building.  Basically, the would have had to shut down the whole section and tear a lot out for this to happen.


Understandably there are more questions to the Pentagon attack than there are answers. 
I recall seeing photographs of the impact site before that part of the building collapsed. There's a small hole (in relation to the size of a jet airliner) at the point of impact. Again the grass is unharmed, unmarked and not even scorched brown/black by the intense heat of thousands of gallons of fuel igniting suddenly. Here they say the plane was pulverized completely. Hard to swallow after seeing dozens of photographs of other wasted aircraft frames after colliding with the ground or even runways. 
You'd think that at least the tail section would've been the largest piece(s) of evidence left behind. Seats and seat frames, luggage of various makes, miles of wiring and hoses... all of it gone in an instant when it hit, in effect a concrete wall. 
Simply amazing isn't it?


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 20, 2008)

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.asp


----------



## MBuzzy (Jun 20, 2008)

I stand corrected - there were structural reinforcements taking place.  Ones that had been going on for 8 years prior to the attack.  It seems that steel tubing was being used to reinforce the existing structure which definately helped and caused a more stable structure for the plane to hit.




MA-Caver said:


> Understandably there are more questions to the Pentagon attack than there are answers.
> I recall seeing photographs of the impact site before that part of the building collapsed. There's a small hole (in relation to the size of a jet airliner) at the point of impact. Again the grass is unharmed, unmarked and not even scorched brown/black by the intense heat of thousands of gallons of fuel igniting suddenly. Here they say the plane was pulverized completely. Hard to swallow after seeing dozens of photographs of other wasted aircraft frames after colliding with the ground or even runways.
> You'd think that at least the tail section would've been the largest piece(s) of evidence left behind. Seats and seat frames, luggage of various makes, miles of wiring and hoses... all of it gone in an instant when it hit, in effect a concrete wall.
> Simply amazing isn't it?


 
I believe that with a bit of research you can find the answers to your questions.  I really can't see many questions remaining regarding these crashes.

That "small hole" that is used in many of these pictures was actually in one of the innermost rings, the outer rings having been damaged much more severely.

As for missing pieces of the aircraft in comparison to other aircraft hitting runways and open fields.....There is a major difference between an aircraft crashing into the ground or a runway and into 5 rings of extremely thick concrete and steel walls.  When a plane crashes on a runway or in a field, it is usually redirected and the entire impact is not absorbed by the ground.  In this case, the airplane hit the first wall, kept going through the second wall, then kept going through the third wall, etc etc....at some point bursting into flame.  Remember, 5 rings equals 10 walls, plus hallway space, plus the space in between each ring, plus the floors, and the rest of the steel superstructure.  The concrete we're talking about here is by no means thick.  Basically ONE WALL is the thickness of an entire runway.

If you doubt the pentagon crash, here is an analogy....




Take a look at this video.  This is a truck, going at a FRACTION of the speed of an aircraft, running into a single steel post, and NOT being lit on fire....and check out the unidentifiable wreck that the cab became.  Now add about 400 MPH, about 20 feet on solid concrete and steel separated by hallways, floors, etc....and don't forget the 1800 degree fire.


----------



## Empty Hands (Jun 20, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> But back on topic, please, someone give me a conspiracy theory about 9-11 that i cant shred in 10 seconds



The Grays were responsible, in collaboration with the Lizard People and the Bilderbergers.  They used their alien mind rays to bring down the buildings, and then hypnotised the world population using mind control so that they all _believed _they saw those planes and all that evidence.  None of it really exists!  You're just a brain in a vat, maaan!

Disprove _that _logic-boy.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 20, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> The Grays were responsible, in collaboration with the Lizard People and the Bilderbergers.  They used their alien mind rays to bring down the buildings, and then hypnotised the world population using mind control so that they all _believed _they saw those planes and all that evidence.  None of it really exists!  You're just a brain in a vat, maaan!
> 
> Disprove _that _logic-boy.



Actually... the devil did it... you can see his image in the smoke a few seconds after the second plane crashed into the second tower... And again as one of the buildings burn and then once more as one of the buildings collapsed.... 

the evidence is irrefutable, incontestable and right there! 

Nuff said... now ya'll go to church! 


:uhyeah:


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## Twin Fist (Jun 20, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Hard to swallow after seeing dozens of photographs of other wasted aircraft frames after colliding with the ground or even runways.
> You'd think that at least the tail section would've been the largest piece(s) of evidence left behind. Seats and seat frames, luggage of various makes, miles of wiring and hoses... all of it gone in an instant when it hit, in effect a concrete wall.
> Simply amazing isn't it?



wrong

the pictures you are referring to caver are crashed where the pilot was trying to LAND, not trying to use the plane as a weapon.

watch the clip of the plane flying into a concrete wall  i posted on page one.

the plane literally dissappears

nothing left but the  engines

same EXACT thing that happened at the pentagon 


Also, the fuel had the same inertia as everything else, when the wall was penetrated,all of it got funneled into the building. What wasnt destroyed in the impact was destroyed by the fire.

They found jet engines and landing gear inside the building. Missles dont have those.

Sukerin,
I have to answer these charges point by point, otherwise I will get accused of not refuting something. And no one will be saying that about me, not on THIS subject.

Every single claim the truthers can come out with, i can refute 

they REFUSE to admit that they got nothing, so yeah it irks me that people just put thier fingers in thier ears and ignore the un-deniable truth.

Mostly because these so called theories ( i call them fantasy mind you) all depend on the military being in on the plan, and I am a veteran.

I will NOT let someone accuse the military i gave 12 years of my life to of mass murder when I can prove they are full of crap.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 20, 2008)

you so funny, everyone KNOW that the Bilderbergers are really doing everything they can to UNDERMINE the Grays. Apparently, there was a really big lunch tab one day a few years back, and the grey's stuck the Bilder's with the check...



Empty Hands said:


> The Grays were responsible, in collaboration with the Lizard People and the Bilderbergers.  They used their alien mind rays to bring down the buildings, and then hypnotised the world population using mind control so that they all _believed _they saw those planes and all that evidence.  None of it really exists!  You're just a brain in a vat, maaan!
> 
> Disprove _that _logic-boy.


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## Empty Hands (Jun 20, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Apparently, there was a really big lunch tab one day a few years back, and the grey's stuck the Bilder's with the check...



IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!!


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## kailat (Jun 21, 2008)

Defenitly worth looking into, nonetheless.. A very interesting turn of events on 9.11

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/kTW5f1sTzJ8&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kTW5f1sTzJ8&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## jks9199 (Jun 21, 2008)

kailat said:


> Why is it so hard to believe that the GVT didn't just need a fall guy?  Osama and his goons!   Is it true of the 19 hijackers 11 have been identified as still alive?  Still working as if none of this even happend?  How about the 3 jets that were not even supposed to be in the air that day?  The Pentagon -  whow now there's a topic..  Who actually seen a jet fly into the pentagon?  Why ?


Several people that I know and have spoken too, including a Virginia State Police Trooper who was one of the first to respond to the scene because he happened to be on I-395 and watched a plane fly by him into the Pentagon.  And, yes, I am a little testy about this crap.





> Are you sure it wasn't a guided missle? I mean is it true they just remodeled and re fortitfied that exact area of the Pentegon for such an disaster just within months of it actually happening. RIGHT IN THAT EXACT SECTION of the Pentagon?  How ironic huh?
> No, it was a damned lucky coincidence -- but ya think just maybe there was a reason that was one of the first sides to be rebuilt?  Like it's proximity to Ronald Reagon National Airport, the Potomac River, and several major roads...
> 
> By the way, I also find it incredibly insulting that you believe that various members of the government would have simply ignored warnings and allowed a tragedy anywhere halfway approaching 9/11...  I know several federal LEOs who feel tremendous guilt for failing to recognize warning signs until they came out in hindsight.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 21, 2008)

I think that people tend to give the government a little too much credit for stuff like this.  Trust me, we barely have enough money and people to do our JOBS, let alone elaborate plans and cover ups like this!


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## Twin Fist (Jun 21, 2008)

not to mention the fact that SOMEONE would have talked by now.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 21, 2008)

kailat,
I am done with you, everything you have claimed has been refuted, not only by experts but by people on this very board, and you CHOOSE to ignore it.


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## kailat (Jun 21, 2008)

Wow,why are you guys so testy!??? It's a simple discussion.. sure you keep making very valid claims and reputing evidence thats fantastic.. I am very pleased with that.. LOL good grief dude chill out... You know you made a statement bout your military background! I too was in our countries military and let me just say that by the good nature of what we done there, I am not trying to attack anyone. I am trying to get some of the confused people to understand the magnitude of the situation.

I do not wish for any more of my brothers in arms to die in another country. Lots of them are starting to see the lies. Not enough though.

I SUPPORT THE TROOPS!!!

Then bring them home. We need them here to protect this nation and our borders. National gaurd, and they are in another country. THAT MAKES ALOT OF SENCE when our borders are wide open.

When this crap really starts we wont have a military to defend this nation because it will all be trapped over seas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I apologize for offending anyone whom may have lost a loved one in Iraq.

We all have. 9-11 We all have.

HOW MANY MORE MUST DIE?
How much more suffering must we go through before we WAKE UP!

JUST WAKE UP this is all im asking!!

I WAS IN THE ARMY DURING THE GULF WAR AND I HAVE FRIENDS IN THIS ONE!!

There are some people doing some evil **** over there and NO not all are.

Reason 1) As harsh as it sounds it is true. If I knew then what I know now, I would never have supported the war or followed every order I was given in the military.

Reason 2) This war is a crime against man kind and we as a nation support it. Ask anyone else from a different country what they think of america and it general position on the war.

If we do not support it as a nation then why are we still there?

Guilt by association! Ignorance is no excuse!

If they are not fighting against this crime and are willingly helping it to continue, they are just as guilty.

Now, with that said, I know as having been one, they are just following orders.

Nazi soldiers were also just following orders!

I have asked soldiers and cops if there was a war between the citizens and the government would they fight against the people and everyone I have asked has awnsered the same way.

YES!
I also asked them why. Response, that is how I support my family or I do not want to go to jail.


Insane!!!!!!!! They will not have a family left.

They will be fighting their family!

After the true freedom fighters are gone, they will be next. They will end up in prison or dead too.



Do you think GOD cares if the devil said he would imprision you or take your money.

But GOD, how would I support my family with no money or from behind bars?

Where do you think that soul will be spending eternity.



I support our troops but they should be here defending this country not stealing another one or helping to steal its resources.



If the mission was accomplished then what the hell are we still doing there 7 years later?

I really do support our troops for the fact THEY BELIEVE THEY ARE DEFENDING THIS COUNTRY'S INTRESTS and are giving their lifes for that belief. I AM ALL FOR THAT. Killing people from a country that did not attack us is WRONG. SoDAmn INsane is DEAD and has been for some time.



WHO ARE WE FIGHTING???????????

Osama is not in Iraq!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If they are too stupid or do not feel in their souls that killing people in their own country when they didn't even attack us is wrong and question their orders,then I hate to say it, but they deserve to die there.

My friend has killed about 9 people in his 2 tours and NONE of them were enemy combatants!

2 older men. 1 woman. 6 children.



That is not helping the united States, it is hurting it.



Why do you think they are killing themselves in record numbers?

Why do you think they come back so messed up?

Their SOUL IS TAINTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are tormented constantly!!!!!!

It is like HELL!!!! That is because the have SINNED!!!!!!!!

They took human life for someone elses personal gain wether they knew it then our not.

HAVE YOU PEOPLE EVER HAD SOMEONE DIE IN YOUR ARMS???

Not from natural causes.

How about with a big gapping whole in their head and you are trying to breath air into the mouth they no longer have?

Look.

I WAS A SOLDIER AND I LEARNED IT IS WRONG! I AM NOW A WARRIOR!!

To kill in selfdefense is one thing, to go to smeone elses home and blow up thier 6 month old daughter is JUST PLAIN WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!


I WILL DIE FOR MY COUNTRY AND MY FAMILY.



I WILL NOT DIE TO MAKE SOME OTHER ******* RICH.



WHAT has our country gained from this war?

Osama will attack Iran. Osama is C.I.A.

(America)

It is the plan to draw us into the next big war.




I will stop here.

I can go on and on but what is the point?


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 21, 2008)

Oh dear.


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## kwaichang (Jun 21, 2008)

I can't even express how I feel about conspiracy theorists; wait I can:


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## CoryKS (Jun 21, 2008)

Game. Set. Match.


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## Tez3 (Jun 21, 2008)

"HAVE YOU PEOPLE EVER HAD SOMEONE DIE IN YOUR ARMS???

Not from natural causes."




_yes
_


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## MA-Caver (Jun 21, 2008)

Lets try to keep this thread civil... thank you.


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## elder999 (Jun 21, 2008)

I told ya!



			
				elder999 said:
			
		

> :lfao: Get out the tinfoil!


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## exile (Jun 21, 2008)

*FINAL MOD WARNING!!*

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

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## Twin Fist (Jun 21, 2008)

kailat said:


> Osama will attack Iran. Osama is C.I.A.





uh..........

ok

thanks for letting us know


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## kailat (Jun 22, 2008)

This just in:  By Loose Change called "Final Cut" 

 If anything else, just for the entertainment.  It's about 190mins long so sit tight.. Im watching it right now.. so I have no comments on this video at this time.. just thought i'd add it.

<embed id="VideoPlayback" style="width:400px;height:326px" allowFullScreen="true" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-3719259008768610598&hl=en&fs=true" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> </embed>


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## Big Don (Jun 22, 2008)

kailat said:


> This just in:  By Loose Change called "Final Cut"
> 
> If anything else, just for the entertainment.


Yeah, but, it isn't nice to laugh at the insane.


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## Archangel M (Jun 22, 2008)

Should be more like "loose screws".


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2008)

In every government and countries secret/security services I'm sure there are some meglomaniacs who would quite happily countenance something like faking an attack on their country in order to provoke a war or other action to suit their purposes but and this is a very big but in truth it's actually harder to carry out these plans for many reasons. I expect some polititians have very grandiose plans to take over the world, being in politics does that to you, you get ideas above your station as they used to say. The problem with these plans is that human nature gets in the way, as has been pointed out before people find it very hard to keep quiet about things, someone would talk. There's also the problem of money as has again been pointed out, the governments of most countries are actually vey stingy and hate paying for things. There's also many people who wouldn't go along with any plan that would damage their own country. You have to take in account other polititicians who have their own self seeking plans and selfishly won't play with the others lol!
Then theres the competence thing, when we look at the way our countries are actually run can we imagine that the governments could run a very slick covert operation without someone somewhere messing it up? Look at all the election campaigns, all the mess ups and apologies that have to be given, look at the way the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is run, if they could organise something like bombing the Twin Towers surely they could have organised the subsequent war better? never underestimate human fallibility (or stupidity lol). I know from first hand experience that in government departments the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, you also have the age long battle between politicians and civil servants.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jNKjShmHw7s&feature=related


Conspiracies are fine in novels but the truth in real life is always more mundane and while you're indulging yourselves with these theories, in real situations like Zimbabwe there really is a conspiracy to kill off all opposition to the ruling president, people are dying and suffering and what? No word of them is spoken here is it?


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## Twin Fist (Jun 22, 2008)

loose change........

Kailiat,
you should know that every single word of loose change has been refuted. It's a lie. Every single word of it. Dont believe me, go google "loose change debunked"

seriously.


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## kailat (Jun 22, 2008)

Right, and regaurdless of whether we believe this as the gospel truth or as made of false evidence.  Im not 100% convinced that either story were getting from either side is truth to be honest... Im sure the answer lies somewhere in between the two.  

 I watched a little of this video last night before I ended up falling asleep and what I did recognize was that this version as compared to the first video I watched from them, the "tone" had kinda changed a little within reason.  

 They pretty much kept to the point in the first video which is probably a "rough draft" perhaps but they pretty much tried to dispute the fact that it was all terrorist blamed.  As I wached thru maybe 1/2 of this video they kept to the same guideline as it may be, however, what i noticed this time is they left the option of believing up to the viewer.... 

 TWIN FIST I never-ever said what you were saying was not right, nor was wrong.  I just threw some extra "screws" in the mix since this topic is of 9/11.

 I firmly stand behind my last post on this WAR though.  I do not believe we need to be there anymore.  It's a lost cause and it's a war that needs to end ASAP!  REGAURDLESS of the truth behind 9/11 there is a bigger a much larger issue that is going on here within our own country.  Our own govt.  

 I am also not convinced that what I have read, and or heard of this New World Order and the bigger agenda of tieing together the 4 corners of the globe together in the : NAU, EU, AFU, and the ASU.  

*Revelation 7*

 1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 

 There is defenitly something going to happen soon.  I believe this firmly.  Im not 100% sure and as of when, but it will be within the next several years.

 There are so many conspiracy theories, I do not claim to buy into any of them..  Since the past 100 yrs man has always tried to break the code of the Holy Bible and dictate when the end of times will be. 

 SIGNS is all we have to watch and see.   WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE and know Jesus.  He is gonna be our only savior in the end.  I've no room to talk because I have alot of mixed feelings about alot of this too.  But one thing is for sure,  if an when the Police State and Martial Law become implemented and they start to take away my 2nd amendment right to bear arms.  I will then realize its getting one step closer.... Im preparing now and not waiting till the final moment like many will.  I'M AWAKE and taking a larger look at the LARGE picture here.  

 Whether or not 9/11 is a hoax, or was an actual act of terrorism and kick in our "Nuts" then it' time we stop letting our GOVT try to continue making these laws that they think will protect us, when in fact they are hurting us.  

 They are striping us of our rights and our freedoms each and every day and I for one am sick of it....

THE END!  LOL


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## Twin Fist (Jun 22, 2008)

Kailaat,
This is off topic, but i will beg the boards pardon.

The war is hardly a lost cause. The surge WORKED

violence is down, public opinion of the us military is up, and the iraqi's are actually doing a lot more of it on thier own.

that being said, questioning things is good, as long as you listen to the answers you get......


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## kailat (Jun 22, 2008)

TF

  Again, we went over, we have IRAQ in order.. Why must we continue to be over there? How long do they think we need to stay over there in this conflict?  IF we pulled out today, they will fall right back into the same unorganized country they were.  So what do we just stay over there and babysit them?  Continue to use up all their resources and buy their oil?  I personaly think we should just have done like the old way.. Went over kicked their buts and just took the country over and let that be that... Why must we continue to send our young and seasoned vets over there over and over, tour after tour to do what?  Buy OIL?  It has been said that there are enough oil reserves in Alaska and in the US.

 Again there is a larger agenda behind this whole thing..

MONEY- WE'RE BROKE
POWER- AMERICAN GOVT SEEMS THEY WANT TO STAY BIG BRO TO 
            EVERYONE


If the truth lies behind the NWO then were gonna end up with a large rude awakening...WMD, HAARP, RFID VERICHIPS, REAL ID CARDS, POLICE STATE, MARTIAL LAW, SENSELESS KILLINGS, POPULATION CONTROL


we are estimated at 7billion people on this planet.  With China having nearly 3 to 4 billion of the 7.  Have you researched HAARP? what its capable of?  Again whether or not its true, if they can change our weather patterns to cause hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes and all this flooding etc....  Then im concerned this is just the beginning of the end.

 Look at whats going on right now in IOWA, police going into people homes and making them leave their homes, so they can seize thier weapons.. 


 And violence is no more down now then it was 10 yrs ago.   In fact its staying pretty steady... I dont' know but there just is things to consider outside of 9/11.  To me that was just the evnt to set all the rest of the events in order.


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## Tez3 (Jun 22, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Kailaat,
> This is off topic, but i will beg the boards pardon.
> 
> The war is hardly a lost cause. The surge WORKED
> ...


 
I disagree with you about whether the surge worked but thank goodness I can understand the argument here! 

kailat, all countries are basically disorganised when it comes down to it, it's what keeps us free and sane! You can only push the people so far and then they say enough is enough. 
Before the last war we had Black Shirts in England ranting and raving about how Hitler was right etc, the British public tolerated it for so long as we believe in free speech but then when the Black Shirts crossed the line spouting their anti Semitism and showing their true colours they were shown that they weren't welcome here. More than 300,000 people turned up for the Battle of Cable Street.




 
We could have gone the way of Germany in 1936 or we could have gone the way of Russia in 1917, we don't because the British people aren't stupid, aren't sheep and will do what's necessary when necessary. I have no reason to believe the American people will do any less. Have a little faith in your people.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 5, 2008)

mrhnau said:


> *waits for UNK to chime in*


 
I'm a little late here and actually on my way to bed.  Jet lagged.  First of all, I don't believe the official version of the 9-11 story.  Too many inconsistencies.  I don't pretend to be able to tell you what actually happened.

Secondly, I don't think we'll ever know what really happened because a myth has been created and disseminated and all of the evidence that one would need to re-investigate has been destroyed.  

Thirdly, 9-11 truthers are deluded.  If I really believed that My Country was so callous that they would kill me and my family for the oligarchy's whims, then I would try my darndest to get the hell out.  Further, a government that could actually do this, cover it up and create a myth that convinces most people to toe the line is not a government that is ever going to be influenced by democracy.  

I don't respect these guys who go around talking about this stuff without ever taking the time to really think about what they are saying.  

In the end, this atrocity will be erased by the monstrosity of time and it won't matter who did what.  Maybe the myth turns into legend or may it is forgotten...just like so many other things that shouldn't have been forgotten...


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## Zeno (Jul 5, 2008)

Not sure if anyone has thrown this page up there yet, but I figured I would. Let me tell you, the guy who writes these things is certainly not my hero. I don't use him has any form of evidence towards anything. I'm just putting this out there because it pertains to the topic.

If you're offended by some swearing, don't visit the site. But I think we can all handle it.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

EDIT:

I'm also going to throw up a few more sites that he links to on that page, just in case.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

Do I think there's a 9/11 conspiracy? I think there's enough information about the terrorist attack that the common U.S. citizen doesn't know about, but I think that general "hide the truth" applies to most situations involving government action.

Do I think what hit the Pentagon was a missile instead of a plane? No.

I don't think the "9/11 Director" or whoever he'd be called would take a look at a missile and say, "Well, it KIND of looks like a plane. Just make sure it's going really fast so people don't notice it's missing one of the most prominent parts of any aircraft: the WINGS."

I say this because apparently some "eye witness" reports indicate the lack of wings on the aircraft that struck the Pentagon.

Honestly, the government's been keeping secrets from the American people for a VERY long time. I'm sure they could execute some master plan like this with the greatest finesse.

Bottom line, I think there's a fair amount we don't know about this terrorist attack. But I'm not questioning that it was anything other than that.


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## kwaichang (Jul 5, 2008)

Gee, none of the terrorists were named O'Herlihy or O'Doole, or Schmidt, or Jones.  None of them were Protestant, Catholic or Jew or Buddhist, etc.

They were radical (fanatical) Muslims of Arab decent.

That's enough for me.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 5, 2008)

This topic has been beaten to death in this forum.  The only thing that I'm going to say is this...

How can anyone say that they know this or that about 911?  The information has passed through people's hands and has been spun to fit their agendas AND so much will never be discovered, or told, or investigated because it doesn't fit certain agendas.  We'll never know the truth and I don't trust the government to tell it to me.  If you do beleive the official line, fine, but I think it refelts more of the individuals willingness to beleive the official line rather then any objective look at "evidence." 

Because, lets face it, no one here has seen any real evidence whatsoever.  We just repeat what other people say.


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## kwaichang (Jul 5, 2008)

:hb:


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## Makalakumu (Jul 5, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> :hb:


 
Yup.


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## kwaichang (Jul 5, 2008)

I want to go back to little grass shack 
In Kealakekua, Hawai`i 
I want to be with all the kanes and wahines 
That I used to know long ago 


I can hear the old guitars playing 
On the beach at Hônaunau 
I can hear the old Hawaiians saying 
Komo mai no kâua i ka hale welakahao 


It won't be long till my ship will be sailing 
Back to Kona 
A grand old place 
That's always fair to see, you're telling me 


I'm just a little Hawaiian 
A homesick island boy 
I want to go back to my fish and poi 


I want to go back to my little grass shack 
In Kealakekua, Hawai`i 
Where the humuhumunukunukuâpua`a 
Go swimming by


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## elder999 (Aug 21, 2008)

Seen  here.



> *Federal report refutes 9/11 conspiracy theory*
> 
> *Investigators say fire  not explosives  brought down nearby skyscraper*
> 
> ...


 
You can see the federal report  here, in PDF form.


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