# How many here would want this combo calibered handgun concept?



## AC_Pilot (Jan 9, 2005)

http://nordicg3k.tripod.com/id6.html

http://nordicg3k.tripod.com/id5.html

http://nordicg3k.tripod.com/id2.html

How many here would buy a revived and perfected Bren 10 weapon that could be converted with a barrel swap, to .40 S & W and .357 Sig? The .40 would make target practice cheap and the other two calibers would be perfect CC or backwoods chamberings, especially the 10mm. This is my dream primary CCW but no one makes it. I would want it in matte stainless steel and full size, but I bet sales would be stronger for a compact version. Ideally a full size and a compact would be made. Yes I know about the CZ weapons but none meet the above specs, nor look (or are) as sleek as the Bren 10. I definitely want the 3 caliber combo in my fantasy gun..I figure it would be about $1,500 to $2,000 for a finely built combo gun in a nice case with 3 barrels and maybe three or 4 mags. comments?

Oh, and here's an excellent little sub gun for a companion arm:
http://nordicg3k.tripod.com/id41.html

Price is too high but if HK would just make one, the price would plummet... and Olympic Arms makes a 10mm CAR15 upper for not much dinero!


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## dearnis.com (Jan 9, 2005)

It won't sell.  No manufacturer was ever solidly behind the 10mm, there is no law enforcement market for the round to speak of, and regardless of how good it is  (and it is IS really good) You wont see anyone pick up and run with it.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 9, 2005)

Why are the Glock 20 and the Dan Wesson Patriot (and discontinued Razorback) so popular then? There are 10mms in currrent production, I think many people are scared away by a dedicated 10mm ONLY weapon.. ?

I want the 10mm for backwoods carry, the .357 Sig for concealed street carry, and the .40 for cheap target practice.. I can fantasize, can't I ?


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## dearnis.com (Jan 9, 2005)

> Why are the Glock 20 and the Dan Wesson Patriot (and discontinued Razorback) so popular then?



Key word is discontinued.  DW and Kimber do release limted runs of 10mm that are normally sold out rapidly- mostly to collectors I would guess.  Ask a glock dealer how many 10s they sell compared to any/all other calibers.

If you're that set on it get a DW and do the barrel  swaps yourself; Bar Sto makes 1911 barrels in both .40 and .357.  Honestly though, the .357 will do as much as the 10 for backwoods unless you are in serious bear country, and then you might want to step it up a bit.  I'm curious about the .40 for cheap target practice- I've never found it to be that cheap or that accurate?


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 9, 2005)

Agreed to the lesser numbers of 10mms sold, but it hangs on and keeps selling and this would be of course limited in production #s weapon by nature. 

.40 is used by many major police depts and you can buy it cheap by the bucketload if you look through a Shotguns News. Winchester USA .40 white box is pretty cheap for less hungry .40s. I have a Sigma .40 and reloading dies but I have not bothered to reload for it yet, as I received a huge box full of different ammo for it with the purchase, including bags of target reloads. I would classify the Sigma as "marginal" and it is a shooter and maybe a loaner type handgun in an emergency situation, only. 

The 10mm is an excellent penetrator with the right loads and one concern in the backwoods today are crazies in vehicles. I have run into several and things looked tense even though I was openly armed (Tresspassers on my land) the 10mm would have a decent chance at getting through sheet metal and glass, where a long gun is not immediately available. My .45s and 9mms are marginal at this. I try to have a combat carbine nearby but the handgun can always be on me. The .357 Sig chambering would allow the same weapon to be used for CC.

Where I live there are "only" black bears and the 10mm should do OK on them for a handgun. I've never had to shoot one so far as they usually hate and avoid dogs and mine are often with me. Wild Black bears tend to be reclusive. If it were Brown or Grizzly bears I would definitely want a shotgun with slugs or a high powered semi rifle.


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## dearnis.com (Jan 10, 2005)

The 10s come out on 1911 platforms where the makers have to change next to nothing to create an instant collector's item.  Again, I'm not knocking the round, but the drive to the .40 caused it to be lost in the shuffle, much like the .41 magnum was some decades back.
.40  prices on ammoman are on par w/ .357 sig; cheaper than 10mm to be sure, but when I think cheap practice ammo I am usually thinking less than $100-125 for 500 rounds.
The 9mm, with appropriate loads, is far from marginal on sheet metal and glass.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 10, 2005)

I am very glad I went on this crusade on several firearms forums, a poster pointed out the EAA 10MM *steel framed *weapons (CZ clones made by Tanfoglio of Italy) which are fully convertable to .357 Sig, .40 S & W, .45 ACP, 9mm. The 9mm sould definitely fill the "cheap practice ammo" category. I handload and will cast my own 9mm and .40 cal bullets for target shooting. Here's a very informative article on the EEA weapons:

http://www.savvysurvivor.com/gearrevewtangfoglio_witness_series_pistol.htm

I am going to get it in 10MM, add an ambi safety and nite sights, break it in and debug it with .357 Sig and .40 S & W conversions, butter the frame/slide, and send it with a big stack of mags in for a matte hard chrome job. it will be my main CCW and my main backwoods/survival piece. The .357/40/10mm have a 15 shot mag ! I can obtain Mec Gar after market mags @ wholesale, since I sell them. I simply never knew this weapon was caliber convertable.


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## dearnis.com (Jan 10, 2005)

Let us know how it turns out. The .357/40/10 conversion should be snap since all the heads are the same size; how do they deal w/ 9mm and 45?  (not that you need either w/ the 10 and .357)?


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 10, 2005)

I do believe from what little I can read about this on line that a slide change would be needed if the 9mm and .45 are a genuine possiblity. I have only seen this stated as a possibility by one particular poster and not confirmed by EAA yet.. Nice thing about this setup is the relatively low cost for a 3 calibered weapon. I can't take on the *full *project right now as I must deal with, among other to-dos, the more pressing matter of getting the computerized Holley fuel injection and a fuel cell installed in my new Cobra.. or I'll miss the entire summer of driving it, in 2005 

I will not be trying the .45 or 9mm setups for the Witness... I already have numerous 9mms including Browning Hi-Powers, 9mm CAR 15, Firestar, etc.. and several 1911s and a CAR15 in .45 ACP.

All the best,
Steve


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 20, 2005)

OK, I found out I can do this with an EAA Witness in 10MM, http://www.savvysurvivor.com/gearrevewtangfoglio_witness_series_pistol.htm using a .40 barrel for the .40 conversion, and a 9mm barrel/slide, with the chamber reamed to .357 Sig caliber. I'm alternately thinking about making a Browning Hi-Power .40 cal into a .357 Sig combo weapopn, and just buying and customizing the EAA Witness for my 10mm.. will let ya know.


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## Jerry (Jan 21, 2005)

Glock's .357 and .40 are already interchangeable with a simple barrel swap (the extra barrell should run you just over $100). Because of the higher pressures that a 10 fires under, it's not been suitable for weapons based on the 9mm frame (the .40s on the market are generally based on the 9mm frames).

Because of that much higher pressure, I would expect a weapon created for a 10 to have trouble keeping proper inertia to clear the round from the weapon. Conversely, a weapon desigend for a .40 would release muzzle pressure too quickly, and not have a strong enough spring for a 10. 

I'm not sure if the length of the round (25mm) poses a problem or not. I believe the .40s are pretty similar.

In the end, the simplest solution would seem to be "buy more than one weapon". the "expesive bits" (custom sights, springs, and the like) are too specific to the round being fired to make a convertable gun anything more than "cool".


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 26, 2005)

Jerry,

 The key to a 9mm in a "normally 10mm" weapon is the recoil spring.. the right lb-age recoil spring will fix that problem (lighter spring)  But I am leaning towards a custom 10mm for a survival and backwoods gun and a Browning Hi-Power in .40 S & W and .357 Sig for my street gun. Would use the .357 Sig for the street, only for it's better hard surface penetration.


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## gozanryu (Jan 27, 2005)

The 10mm is a natural for the small carbine or smg. The 40 was born out of the 10 as the FBI agents couldnt shoot the 10 effectively and downloaded it. I think part of that problem was that they were trying to use the 1911 platform (Delta Elite) The 10 made the timing on that platform all wrong. The 45 ACP is just a "natural" in that pattern pistol. The 10mm is just to overpowered for a LE gun. However, how about this, a small. pump action (IE IMI Timberwolf)  carbine with a 10 shot tubular magazine? Or a semi auto like a Marlin 10/22 (bigger) that uses 1006 mags? Those would be sweet little carbines. . . ..


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 29, 2005)

I like both carbine ideas. The Timberwolf type would be more PC if you live in a restricted place, and the Ruger carbine sounds great.. especially if someone would make small wind up drums for them, say 35 rounds. I like the 10mm for a backwoods or survival handgun caliber, and I try to always have at least one long gun for each handgun caliber I own. Therefore, I have:

Several 10/22 Rugers, folding stocks and 50 round drums and other mags, with red dot optics

Colt CAR 9mm, lots of high cap mags and optics

Olympic Arms CAR15 .45 ACP carbine, same as 9mm accessories

Looking for, in the future, private sales only, I don't *do* paperwork these days:

Stainless steel .444 Marlin, which will also shoot .44 magnums and .44 specials BTW..

.357 magnum, stainless Timberwolf or a SS Lever action

Once I get into the 10 MM, an Olympic Arms CAR15 10 MM upper.. (I get these wholesale since I sell them on line) I am hoping that there will be larger capacity Uzi mags imported now for these weapons, instead of the 10 round only mags we have been stuck with prior to the AWB's sunset (yaaay!) In an emergency the 10MM AR15 can fire .40 S & W, but may have to be hand cycled as a single shot. Maybe not, with hot .40 I have not tried this yet, not having owned one.
Having a long gun with the same caliber as your handguns just makes good sense. You can use your less-likely to have been used handgun ammo to stoke your carbine in an emergency. One nice thing is if you handload, and cast your own lead bullets, as long as you have the correct gunpowder and primers, you will not be without a decent long gun, even if you run out of rifle ammo.  Just save your fired brass and learn how to reload. This also allows you to practice with a long gun, more, for a lot less $$, than even surplus military rifle ammo cost.


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## Liam_G (Feb 3, 2005)

The glock 29 is a great compact 10mm, and conversion barrels are available for both .40 and .357 sig.  Plus you can now get the MechTech carbine conversion that fits on the G29 frame, giving you a 10mm carbine.

As far as Dan Wesson goes, they aren't just selling limited runs of 10mm's anymore ... there are 3 regular 1911s in the DW lineup chambered for 10mm (The Razorback, plus a 10mm option on two of the Patriot models).

I'm not arguing that this means that the big 10 is now as popular as the .40 ... don't get me wrong ... but it's a very viable caliber that has its uses.   

Also, hey, if you like the caliber and the idea of the convertibles makes you grin, then do it!  Life's short, so if the 10 sounds fun, go for it.

Respectfully,
Liam

p.s. gozanryu: the fbi, if I recall correctly, was actually using the S&W 1076 auto, not the Colt Delta.  I owned a 1076 for a while, and it is a very cool, solid gun ...

p.p.s. dearnis: man, I love that avatar!  did you design it yourself, or find it somewhere??


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## still learning (Feb 3, 2005)

Hello, It would be nice but not everyone will want one?     .....Aloha


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