# Current Data of Kukkiwon Poom Dan Holders in the U.S



## Archtkd (Mar 23, 2012)

I am working on a paper about the history of Taekwondo in Kenya and got this data of current number for poom and dan holders in Kenya and the U.S last night and thought I should share it here. Apparentlt this data (for all countries) is available on the Korean pages of the Kukkiwon web site, but I don&#8217;t know the languae. Given all the loose talk we have on this boards about the so called terrible standards of Kukkiwon certification, etc., I would have expected to see higher U.S numbers. 
The Kenya date surprised me because I did&#8217;t think the country had anyone higher than 6[SUP]th[/SUP] dan. I am guessing the one  7[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan and one 9[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan are Korean-Kenyan, or the 9[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan is an honorary dan. The U.S numbers are in bold.                                                Sorry for the nuke thing. I've on idea how I put it on the thread header by mistake and can't figure how to edit it out.

KENYA                                                                          *UNITED STATES
*                                                                1[SUP]st[/SUP] &#8211; Poom &#8211; 81                            *96,753 
*2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Poom &#8211; 2                                   *13,578*
                                                                 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] Poom &#8211; 3                                        *1,803
*1[SUP]st[/SUP] Dan &#8211; 389                                  *58,710
*2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Dan &#8211; 65                                    *20,171*
3[SUP]rd[/SUP] Dan &#8211; 24                                       *9,373*
4[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan &#8211; 14                                       *4,397
*5[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan &#8211; 4                                        *     2,103
*6[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan &#8211; 4                                           *1,051
*7[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan 1                                                        *660
*8[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan 0                                                        *175
*9[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan 1                                                    *73*


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## andyjeffries (Mar 23, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> I am working on a paper about the history of Taekwondo in Kenya and got this data of current number for poom and dan holders in Kenya and the U.S last night and thought I should share it here. Apparentlt this data (for all countries) is available on the Korean pages of the Kukkiwon web site, but I don&#8217;t know the languae. Given all the loose talk we have on this boards about the so called terrible standards of Kukkiwon certification, etc., I would have expected to see higher U.S numbers.
> 
> KENYA                                                                          *UNITED STATES*



If anyone can figure out from the Korean site worldwide numbers (or UK numbers) I'd appreciate knowing.


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## puunui (Mar 23, 2012)

The US numbers looks about right. From 1997, there has been about 145,000 more kukkiwon poom and dan certificates issued, which is about 10,000 per year. So the number of certificates has tripled over the last 15 years.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 23, 2012)

can anyone get the australian numbers?


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## IcemanSK (Mar 23, 2012)

Thank you for posting this, Patrick! How up-to-date are the numbers? 2010? 2011?


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## Archtkd (Mar 24, 2012)

IcemanSK said:


> Thank you for posting this, Patrick! How up-to-date are the numbers? 2010? 2011?


 I am assuming those numbers are very current (2011) because I got them from someone on the international desk of the Kukkiwon Thursday night.


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## lifespantkd (Mar 25, 2012)

Does anyone have any information about the proportion of men/women in these numbers?

Cynthia


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## Archtkd (Mar 25, 2012)

lifespantkd said:


> Does anyone have any information about the proportion of men/women in these numbers?
> 
> Cynthia



That's a really good question. They've never broken them down by gender.


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## d1jinx (Mar 26, 2012)

I wonder how many of those numbers are still alive.  I know it may sound morbid, but if this is a TOTAL of certificates issued for _______ country, KENYA/USA in this case), then the actual living number may be lower. 

It would be nice info to know things like:  Alive, Active in TKD, Gender.  It may not be something that can be answered in a day, but I bet it could be implemented over time and in 5 years time, could be an easy answer. 

Of those 96K 1st Dans, I bet only 6k are still practicing... (Dramatising of course, dont be critical of the numbers i used.  But we all know how people tend to quit after 1st Dan)


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 26, 2012)

Gender could be added to the database from the applications. But I'm not sure how the KKW could determine if someone was active or dead.


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## d1jinx (Mar 26, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Sorry for the nuke thing. I've on idea how I put it on the thread header by mistake and can't figure how to edit it out.



shows what im thinking about.... I thought it was the MAGPUL logo...


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## d1jinx (Mar 26, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Gender could be added to the database from the applications. But I'm not sure how the KKW could determine if someone was active or dead.



start by whoever is actively processing DANS, or recieving Dans would be the first.  then, go out for a census.  Could be done fairly easy with email.  wont be acurate at first but over time could be up to date and fairly active.  Especially if you got the word out to report numbers back to the ORGs that processed the majority of Apps.  since most have to be members, they easily have information about who is still active or not.  In the case where individuals process Dans, send them a message to do a "head count" of those apps they processed.

not saying it would be done right away, but I think it could be done over time.


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## Archtkd (Mar 26, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> I wonder how many of those numbers are still alive.  I know it may sound morbid, but if this is a TOTAL of certificates issued for _______ country, KENYA/USA in this case), then the actual living number may be lower.
> 
> It would be nice info to know things like:  Alive, Active in TKD, Gender.  It may not be something that can be answered in a day, but I bet it could be implemented over time and in 5 years time, could be an easy answer.
> 
> Of those 96K 1st Dans, I bet only 6k are still practicing... (Dramatising of course, dont be critical of the numbers i used.  But we all know how people tend to quit after 1st Dan)



That's a good thought, but I think it would be extremely hard to track the dead, especially in large developed countries like the U.S (Category 1), where individual instructors can recommend students for poom/dan Kukkiwon certification. Even in small, developing countries like Kenya  (Categor 2), where only Member National Associations (MNAs) of the WTF can make dan/poom recommendations,  it can be difficult. I know someone in Kenya, who's currently trying to create a data base of all living poom/dan holders and he's having major problems because the Kenya Taekwondo Association, the country's MNA, has had very poor, I'd say non-existent, record keeping practices. And that' is a country where Taekwondo was introduced just 37 years ago.


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## d1jinx (Mar 26, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> That's a good thought, but I think it would be extremely hard to track the dead, especially in large developed countries like the U.S (Category 1), where individual instructors can recommend students for poom/dan Kukkiwon certification. Even in small, developing countries like Kenya (Categor 2), where only Member National Associations (MNAs) of the WTF can make dan/poom recommendations, it can be difficult. I know someone in Kenya, who's currently trying to create a data base of all living poom/dan holders and he's having major problems because the Kenya Taekwondo Association, the country's MNA, has had very poor, I'd say non-existent, record keeping practices. And that' is a country where Taekwondo was introduced just 37 years ago.



I hear what your saying. Im sure there would be a error rate. But, I do think you would get some response and over time would proly eliminate that error rate to about a 10% margin in each country. 

example, say the US. a good assumption is 50% could be accounted for by the ORGS submitting. The individuals who submit solo, are easily contact-able (yes a word!!!) Also, any "NUMBERS" that are stagnant and doesn't process or promote within 5 year time span could be "assumed" to be inactive (especially a 1-2nd Dan) I understand Higher Dans may appear to be inactive. but a high Dan is easier to track down than 9 year old jimmy-john from Ronald McDojo school of hamburgers and Side kicks.

I am being playful with the story and numbers of course, but hopefully you get the picture.


A "census" and accountability could be done. Those who did not participate, would be assumed inactive. Those who do, would be accounted for as active and your profile at KKW marked and updated as promoted or promoting or courses are attended.


Kind of like this.


*Country..... KKW# ......NAME......... Date .........Education ..................last activity ......Active/Inactive
*
USA .............##### ...Joe Blow ......3/3/12 .......MASTER Instr course ........3/3/12...................... A


someone who has been inactive for 25 years, whos birthday is 1946 and was a 2nd dan, is safe to say INACTIVE for accounting purposes.


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## puunui (Mar 27, 2012)

I don't think we need all that detail. "Inactive" for example, someone could be still training but have not received a kukkiwon promotion in a long time. that is more common than people think.


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