# A Bold New Theory of Self Defense Without Weapons



## Freestyler777 (Aug 26, 2007)

After much research and analysis (but no actual experience) I would conclude that a *Wrestler* who learns *Muay Thai* is the best at unarmed combat.  Of course, unarmed combat is not commonly found outside of MMA competitions, since most violent attacks involve weapons and mulitiple attackers, but bear with me.

Competition Judo (in which I train) and Sport Jiu-jitsu (in which I stink) is not really self-defense, even in a fair fight/MMA type situation.  Most throws and submissions are not that useful.  Sometimes Inside Trip/Ouchi Gari or Outside Trip/Kosoto Gari works from the clinch, but you rarely see uchimata, harai-goshi, osoto gari, or ippon seoe nage, unless Karo Parisyan is fighting.

If you knock someone down, even in MMA, you don't need to follow them down!  G n P is for A) winning the match or B)disliking the opponent so much that you want to punch him while he is on the ground.  I don't want to offend anyone by saying the guard was largely intended to be rape prevention.  It's not a good idea to be on your back.

Judo is physical education, and arguably the best human endeavor possible.  But it is not self-defense, and most teachers do not advertise it as such.

So in this grand opus, I would conclude that a wrestler who learns Muay Thai and Ground n Pound is best in MMA.  Judo Throws are hardly ever seen, and submissions are being phased out as punching is taking prominence.

BTW, the wrestlers are the best at avoiding being taken down.  that is something of a mystery.  To avoid the takedown, you have to be trained in takedowns.  Wierd.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 26, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> After much research and analysis (but no actual experience) I would conclude that a *Wrestler* who learns *Muay Thai* is the best at unarmed combat. Of course, unarmed combat is not commonly found outside of MMA competitions, since most violent attacks involve weapons and mulitiple attackers, but bear with me.
> 
> Competition Judo (in which I train) and Sport Jiu-jitsu (in which I stink) is not really self-defense, even in a fair fight/MMA type situation. Most throws and submissions are not that useful. Sometimes Inside Trip/Ouchi Gari or Outside Trip/Kosoto Gari works from the clinch, but you rarely see uchimata, harai-goshi, osoto gari, or ippon seoe nage, unless Karo Parisyan is fighting.
> 
> ...




From my expereince, I have known a few Street toughs. They only knew one or two moves. Those moves were efficient and sufficient. They were not officially trained in any art or system. 


As to avoiding the take down and being trained in the take down it is not that wierd. One has to understand the principal to understand the counter. 

It one knows how to read the person my the energy they are giving you then the takedown can be countered. The issue is reading at Fight Speed and not practice speed. But one must first learn the move and then do it slowly (* True Lies quote popped into my head with Arnold and Jamie and the Tape of Spanish and the "OP" in the suite - Sorry  *)  and learn to recognize the movement and also the timing of when to move and how to move.


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## jks9199 (Aug 26, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> After much research and analysis (but no actual experience) I would conclude that a *Wrestler* who learns *Muay Thai* is the best at unarmed combat.  Of course, unarmed combat is not commonly found outside of MMA competitions, since most violent attacks involve weapons and mulitiple attackers, but bear with me.
> 
> Competition Judo (in which I train) and Sport Jiu-jitsu (in which I stink) is not really self-defense, even in a fair fight/MMA type situation.  Most throws and submissions are not that useful.  Sometimes Inside Trip/Ouchi Gari or Outside Trip/Kosoto Gari works from the clinch, but you rarely see uchimata, harai-goshi, osoto gari, or ippon seoe nage, unless Karo Parisyan is fighting.
> 
> ...


Haven't you learned?

You're going down a road you've already travelled...

There is no perfect or best approach.  There's only the approach that works when your butt is on the line for real.  It's not likely to resemble "classroom technique" anymore than the throws in competition match what you practice in the dojo.  Find what you'll practice and train and learn WELL, because under pressure, your mind will go blank.  

One final note...

"One perfected strike is superior to one thousand ineffectual flailings."


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## meth18au (Aug 27, 2007)

Well said JKS


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 27, 2007)

meth18au said:


> Well said JKS


 
I would definately agree with that!


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 27, 2007)

No more 'style' vs 'style' from me!  It's just academics anyway.  I need to do more training and less thinking.:soapbox:


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## jks9199 (Aug 27, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> No more 'style' vs 'style' from me!  It's just academics anyway.  I need to do more training and less thinking.:soapbox:


Now that's a sentiment we can all get behind!


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## Freestyler777 (Aug 30, 2007)

I've just seen youtube videos of Bas Rutten and Gilbert Yves.  Those guys are amazing!  Bas Rutten is a master of both striking and kicking, and Yves is a master of knee kicks and roundhouse kicks!  I see that i am way behind on my MMA viewing, Muay Thai is truly amazing!  I am glad that the focus of MMA has moved away from sport jiu-jitsu and towards muay thai(standup) and wrestling (Ground n Pound).


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Sep 9, 2007)

I personally feel that it comes down to not what works best, but what works best for you.  Smaller guys don't necessarily want to go to the ground just because on the street there isn't a lot of room for technique, and ground fighting is all about technique.  I personally am small and fast and given the chance I slip in hit hard hit fast and get away.  ​


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## Drac (Sep 9, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Haven't you learned?
> 
> You're going down a road you've already travelled...
> 
> ...


 
Couldn't have said it better...


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## Decker (Sep 12, 2007)

Bruce Lee said, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

I feel that no matter what art one trains in, as long as the practitioner knows the basics and can apply techniques to situations like one would shape words, sentences and poetry from the letters of the alphabet, any style is effective.

Of course, one must take into account the type and nature of said techniques - no point trying to apply groundfighting moves in a standing fight.

And, yeah, what jsk9199 said.


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## meth18au (Sep 12, 2007)

Did Bruce Lee say that?  I may have to start quoting that when the opportunity arises!!!  I like it


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## Freestyler777 (Sep 12, 2007)

Hey Meth, I like your signature, can I quote that? :ultracool

Seriously, its a good quote.  Some people are still in the dark ages, thinking it is survival of the strongest, when really if that was the case, the whole human race would have died out a long time ago. Imagine- kimbo vs silverback gorilla.  Even Kimbo wouldnt last long in the jungle.  Man lives in a complex society where everyone fulfills a different niche, or area of specialization.  He who can always find a way to benefit others is the one who thrives, not he who can brutalize others.


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## thardey (Sep 12, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> Hey Meth,
> He who can always find a way to benefit others is the one who thrives, not he who can brutalize others.



That's how I always survive when playing the "Risk" board game . . . don't draw attention to yourself, be useful to keep around, and don't get aggressive until you know you can finish the job.

Not a bad strategy for life, either.


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## meth18au (Sep 14, 2007)

Yeah mate go for it.  It's my signature- but Charles Darwin said it, not me!!!  LOL...

I'd like to see a Kimbo vs Silverback fight.  I think amongst all the action though, you wouldn't be able to discern one from the other!!!
:lol2:


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## Tez3 (Sep 14, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> I've just seen youtube videos of Bas Rutten and Gilbert Yves. Those guys are amazing! Bas Rutten is a master of both striking and kicking, and Yves is a master of knee kicks and roundhouse kicks! *I see that i am way behind on my MMA viewing*, Muay Thai is truly amazing! I am glad that the focus of MMA has moved away from sport jiu-jitsu and towards muay thai(standup) and wrestling (Ground n Pound).


 
You certainly are well behind lol! Bas Rutten has been retired from fighting for a while now. MMA certainly has moved on but I wouldn't say towards Muay Thai in particular. I would say that it's moved on in that people are more well rounded in what they train in. Being open minded is the key to being a good MMA fighter that and fitness! You need to find moves that work, that suit you and look for these moves anywhere you can. We train Judo, BJJ, MT, karate, kickboxing, boxing, aikido, TSD, wrestling. We'll go to the experts to find stuff that works for us. We aren't jacks of all trades by doing this we are masters of our own, MMA. We don't learn dozens of kicks but search for the ones that suit us then practice as Bruce Lee says!


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## Freestyler777 (Sep 14, 2007)

I guess I shouldn't post if I am so ignorant of what is happening in MMA.  I'm just amazed at kicking's efficacy, especially when compared to the early days.  

MMA is very utilitarian, using whatever works in the situation.  But I would definately say that punching like a boxer, kicking like a thai boxer, and shooting like a wrestler are three vital aspects.  Once on the ground, it is always Ground n Pounder vs bottom guy using the guard to defend himself from the onslaught.

Hey Tez, have you seen rioheroes?  It is essentially bare-knuckle MMA from brazil.  They are not as technically sophisticated in their submission grappling, but they more than make up for that with their ferocity.  They have it on youtube, it's quite fascinating.


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## TheArtofDave (Dec 5, 2007)

While ground & pound is usually favored, and an exciting part of the MMA fight you have to know how to counter submissions. Its rare you see anybody escape a submission once locked in, but you can't go into an MMA fight expecting to always ground & pound because you could get caught in any other strategy used to put you in a position you can't escape.

There is nothing wrong with recalling the older days of MMA, we all have our favorite, and not so favorite moments we like to recall.


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