# Was Jwmims overlooking judo for self defense?



## VT_Vectis (Dec 31, 2014)

I've taken it upon myself to reboot this thread as the original got hijacked and so off topic as to be unrecognisable.  

Mods feel free to remove or edit this thread if you find it not to be worthwhile. 
Here was the original post from afore mentioned thread;

"i am thinking of taking up classes at seibukan jujutsu school,there is a very well respected judo school very near me.
I have always though of judo as a sport.I have pretty good striking skills,would judo add alot to my self defence skills?I know judo is a sport,but could 
you make it a little nasty in a street fight?how would you compare JJJ to judo in a down and dirty street fight?One big plus is the judo classes cost alot less.
thanks,
james"


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## Mephisto (Dec 31, 2014)

The op was pretty old in that thread and I don't believe he's been back in some time. That being said we did cover in the thread; some judo trains only sport but much of it covers self defense including some striking. My two cents; if you can throw an experienced opponent in a sport setting, you can do the same more easily in the street on an inexperienced opponent. This is often the overlooked aspect of martial sports, you train to fight experienced opponents in a specific ruleset. Just because you transition from the ring to the street doesn't make your sport techniques any less valid, you can easily break the rules practiced in sport. We see plenty of rule breaking and fouls in sanctioned events, why do so many seem to think an athlete will follow the same rules on the street. I agree you fight how you train. A boxer will probably try to punch in street defense. But in the street he is free to punch in foul zones or grab the attacker and punch him.

To answer the last question in the op. You can dirty up judo and dump an attacker on his head rather than his back. Sport fighting enables a fighter to train his techniques to a high level of proficiency against resisting attackers. In the street attackers will resist what you do. Resistance training is of utmost importance. Some supplemental street technique and self defense training is good too.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 31, 2014)

Mephisto said:


> We see plenty of rule breaking and fouls in sanctioned events, why do so many seem to think an athlete will follow the same rules on the street.



Something I realized years ago: just because (x) is illegal in a sport doesn't mean that the athletes involved don't know how to do (x). It just means that they know how to do (x) so the ref can't see it.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 31, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Something I realized years ago: just because (x) is illegal in a sport doesn't mean that the athletes involved don't know how to do (x). It just means that they know how to do (x) so the ref can't see it.



Or (my preferred option...) they know how to do (x) but know the difference between sparring and fighting. 



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2014)

Here is a common ancient "dirty trick" used on the mat. You pull your opponent's face into your elbow strike. It's hard for referee to tell whether it was an accident, or you did it on purpose.


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## elder999 (Dec 31, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Something I realized years ago: just because (x) is illegal in a sport doesn't mean that the athletes involved don't know how to do (x). It just means that they know how to do (x) so the ref can't see it.


****in-a, Tony-that's exactly what I'm talking about.

You'd think that none of them had ever been in a judo match, or even watched one-_erp!_-

Never mind!


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## Hanzou (Jan 1, 2015)

In the OP's case, yes he is overlooking Judo's benefits just because its considered a "sport".

I think many times people view MA sports as less effective than their traditional counterparts. Frankly many times the opposite is true. Competitive martial arts benefit from higher levels of athletics, more focused techniques, and  a heavier amount of sparring. Judo randori, and Bjj rolling will not only get you in shape, but strongly develop your "game" which is very important when attempting to utilize your abilities in a violent situation. You quickly learn what works for YOU and what doesn't work. 

For example, I'm pretty terrible at Triangle Chokes. My legs are simply too thick, and my hips and knees don't possess the range of motion to pull off that technique while rolling. So because of that I learned other techniques while rolling that I'm better at utilizing from that position. For example, due to my strong legs and back, I'm very good at sweeping from guard position. So instead of attempting Triangle Chokes, I do sweeps instead. That knowledge developed from constant sparring typically found in competitive/sportive MA.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 1, 2015)

When a punch coming toward your head, If you use

- "dodge/block", no matter how many times that you have successfully dodged/blocked your opponent's punches, you still have to dodge/block the next punch.
- "wrap", all you need is just one successful "wrap", you will no longer need to deal with your opponent's punches any more.

The "wrap" strategy used by a grappler is much more effective than the "dodge/block" strategy used by a striker. IMO, this is the benefit to train the grappling art.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 1, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When a punch coming toward your head, If you use
> 
> - "dodge/block", no matter how many times that you have successfully dodged/blocked your opponent's punches, you still have to dodge/block the next punch.
> - "wrap", all you need is just one successful "wrap", you will no longer need to deal with your opponent's punches any more.
> ...



Well... except that what you're describing is also taught in many (most?) striking arts as well.

And of course, the correct sequence is dodge/block counterstrike.  That last part is sort of important...


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## ballen0351 (Jan 1, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When a punch coming toward your head, If you use
> 
> - "dodge/block", no matter how many times that you have successfully dodged/blocked your opponent's punches, you still have to dodge/block the next punch.
> - "wrap", all you need is just one successful "wrap", you will no longer need to deal with your opponent's punches any more.
> ...


Why would I dodge/block and end?  If a dodge and counter effectively and repeatedly I don't need to worry about more strikes coming at me. 
If you wrapped me well now your arms are also tied up as well.  And as a striker I can still strike you with other things like my feet, knees, head etc.


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## Buka (Jan 1, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> For example, I'm pretty terrible at Triangle Chokes. My legs are simply too thick, and my hips and knees don't possess the range of motion to pull off that technique while rolling. So because of that I learned other techniques while rolling that I'm better at utilizing from that position. For example, due to my strong legs and back, I'm very good at sweeping from guard position. So instead of attempting Triangle Chokes, I do sweeps instead. That knowledge developed from constant sparring typically found in competitive/sportive MA.



What sweeps do you like from guard? And from which guard?


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## Buka (Jan 1, 2015)

To the OP - I think the principles of Judo are terrific in self defense. I also think they blend well with striking. That takes a while, but I think everything takes a while.


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## VT_Vectis (Jan 20, 2015)

Great responses so far guys. Thanks.


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## drop bear (Jan 20, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Why would I dodge/block and end?  If a dodge and counter effectively and repeatedly I don't need to worry about more strikes coming at me.
> If you wrapped me well now your arms are also tied up as well.  And as a striker I can still strike you with other things like my feet, knees, head etc.



depends what you control via the grappling. So if say i get a standing half nelson. Then all the striking opportunities are mine.

you pretty much have to escape. And for the time that takes i am just getting free shots.


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## Hanzou (Jan 21, 2015)

Buka said:


> What sweeps do you like from guard? And from which guard?



Pendulum Sweep and Hip Bump Sweep from closed guard. I've always liked the pendulum because it looked nice when I first saw it, so I spent months trying to perfect it. 

I like the Hip Bump because its easy to transition from failed submission attempts. Plus if the guy tries to catch himself, he can break his arm.


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