# What does Christmas mean to you?



## Carol (Dec 22, 2006)

I don't currently celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday, although my family did when I was growing up.

To me, Christmas means...the birth of Jesus.  To me, he's a fascinating person.  To other people, he is much more important.

It also means a time of festival and celebration, fellowship.  

A time to celebrate the spirit of giving, and a time of optimism...peace on earth, good will towards men.

Call me a hypocrite, or a heretic, but I have colored lights strung out all across my apartment and a tree lit up in the corner of the living room.  Its a nice time of year

What does Christmas mean to you?


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## terryl965 (Dec 22, 2006)

Carol my take on Christmas is the same as any other day try to be the best person I can and also try in help those that need are help. The best part about Christmas is alot more folks feel the need to help those less fortunite than them. I wish everyday was Christmas so this wonderful feeling of giving would go an all year.


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## Kacey (Dec 22, 2006)

I'm with Terry on this one - being Jewish, Christmas means to me that most people are happy, and I get out of work... and not much else.  Too many times, I hear or see advertisements touting "give for the holiday season" - I give what I can, when I can, because there are people in need, not because it's a particular time of year.  I am more likely to give in the winter because more people are in need then - not because of a particular holiday.


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## Ray (Dec 22, 2006)

For me it is the commeration of the birth of the Son of God.

If there were had been no Easter, there would be no Christmas.


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## Makalakumu (Dec 22, 2006)

Christmas is a multicultural holiday that has many different meanings to many different people.  It is like any other holiday, however, it serves an evolutionary need.

So, what does it mean to me?  It provides an excuse for pomp and ritual and tribal bonding.


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## Ninjamom (Dec 22, 2006)

Christmas is what changed my understanding of the Creator from being "Mr. God, Sir" to being "Emmanuel, God with us".


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## Flying Crane (Dec 22, 2006)

Christmas for me, more and more, is becoming a time to grit my teeth, hunker down and just get thru it.  

The commercialism of it is infuriating, my family members go temporarily insane, all kinds of unreasonable expectations are put upon us in the name of Holiday Spirit, and it all just rings false.

I was brought up in a pretty conservative Catholic family, but I and my wife are not practicing in any religion.  But I think Christmas has been so heavily removed from what it was supposed to be, it's almost become a dirty word...


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## IcemanSK (Dec 24, 2006)

To me, it means the commoration of the birth of Christ, as others had mentioned. Being an Episcopalian, we celebrate Advent (the 4 weeks prior to Christmas) as a time of preparation for Christ's coming. (Many other Churches celebrate this as well: but some do not). It's a great reminder to me that it's not all about several very long days at the mall & eating too much.

It's a struggle to keep that focus sometimes. But that's what it means to me.


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## Arizona Angel (Dec 24, 2006)

To me Christmas is a time of year when you can spend time with family eating all the wonderful food and enjoying the company of friends, and where you make memories that last year to year, mostly good ones.  It's a time of year to remember the significance of the birth of Jesus.  It's a time to give and to teach our children the value of giving.  It's a time to shop!  (lol, I do like that part).  A time to make and keep family traditions.  And, it's a time to reflect on ourselves, a time to be grateful, and a time to share.  A time to remember and reflect on past and refocus our goals for the coming new year.  This is a very special holiday to me.  It's a season of hopes, dreams, dedication, humility and peace, and of course, the season of the Christmas music.


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## heretic888 (Dec 24, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> What does Christmas mean to you?


 
Christmas represents, to me, precisely how "Jesus Christ" is nothing more than a literary construction derived from pre-existing sources (both Jewish and Pagan). Outside of that, the season also means good times with friends and family.

Laterz.


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## Ninjamom (Dec 25, 2006)

heretic888 said:


> Christmas represents .. ......nothing more than a literary construction ..... yada yada.......


Oh, Uncle Ebeneezer, won't you please join us for Christmas dinner this year ?? :wink1:


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## heretic888 (Dec 25, 2006)

Ninjamom said:


> Oh, Uncle Ebeneezer, won't you please join us for Christmas dinner this year ?? :wink1:


 
Apparently, one has to compromise one's intellectual integrity and abandon critical thinking skills to join others at Christmas dinner.

Looks like my "friends and family" idea was way off, I guess....


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## Haze (Dec 25, 2006)

The birth of Christ. Not saying I agree with all the dogma and theology of various churches but I have my beliefs.

This time of year seems to root me, or center me. Get me back on track to what life is realy all about. Kindness, giving, being an asset to society and not a liability. Family and friendship. Just touching someones life in a possitive way. That's what Christmas is to me.


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## someguy (Dec 25, 2006)

What does christmaa neab to me?  A head ache.  Gifts I don't want.  Gifts I don't need.  Appricoation of getting a gift but annoyance t the emphasis given to comericalism.  
Humor that Christmas in decmber probably has little to do with the real time for Jesus to be born.  An irony so immesne when compared to the fact that christma now is selling goods instead of religion.  Further irony that this over comercialized spirt of the season is contradictory with being taught not to be greedy.  
Ah but it is time to spend with family and freinds.  That is the real value of it.  Those I love... that is why I bother with this season.  Yeah they are worth it.  
Oh oh oh I also get to eat great food.  Spitzspuben, baklava, pralines, sugar cookies, homemade fudge(the real kind not the kind made with marshmellowcream) oh and thats just the sweet stuff.  Tis the season to get fat.


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## Mariachi Joe (Dec 25, 2006)

The birth of my Lord


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## ed-swckf (Jan 1, 2007)

christmas to me has nothing to do with religion or christ.  For me its just a time of year i enjoy, i like the late night shopping although i don't get to caught up in the consumerist side of things.  I like the family meals and the time spent with loved ones, giving gifts because i want to rather than because a holiday suggests i should.  taking a bit of time out to appreciate stuff - i like to do this a few times a year and i usually enjoy doing so around christmas.


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## elder999 (Jan 3, 2007)

The lab closes for Christmas week each year, so it means vacation, for one. I like sailing, the wife likes skiing, so we alternate with Mexico, where I keep my boat, and someplace with snow. In between, like last year, well go somewhere and work on a house for Habitat for Humanity, or something else, because Christmas, among other things, is about giving-about loving your neighbor as yourself just a little bit extra.


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## Carol (Jan 5, 2007)

elder999 said:


> The lab closes for Christmas week each year, so it means vacation, for one. I like sailing, the wife likes skiing, so we alternate with Mexico, where I keep my boat, and someplace with snow. In between, like last year, well go somewhere and work on a house for Habitat for Humanity, or something else, because Christmas, among other things, is about giving-about loving your neighbor as yourself just a little bit extra.


 
That's really cool, elder999.  My sister and her husband worked with Habitat for Humanity at least once as well.  They said it was an amazing experience.  :asian:


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## Kacey (Jan 5, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> That's really cool, elder999.  My sister and her husband worked with Habitat for Humanity at least once as well.  They said it was an amazing experience.  :asian:



It really is - I donated hours to a friend of mine, years ago - that's how I learned to lay bricks and use a paint sprayer!


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## Andrew Green (Jan 5, 2007)

A multi-cultural holiday celebrated around the world for various different reasons around the same time.  It's current name comes from the Christian church "stealing" the celebration from older beliefs, essentially rewriting its history because people where going to celebrate anyways, might as well give them a "good" reason.

Now it is more commercial and secular then anything, its current form enginereed by advertising telling us to spend more and more on there stuff.

In the end it comes down to the need for a celebration to break the winter, which is cold, dark and tends to keep people indoors more, especially before we all had cars.


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## bookworm_cn317 (Mar 30, 2007)

To me, Christmas means being with your loved ones, as you enjoy the gifts that you just received.

And when I was younger, it meant annoyance at certain relatives for giving me gifts I didn't want and then complaining to my mom that I don't have manners. I have manners, I just choose to use them around people who respect me & treat me like a perfectly capable human being.


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## tellner (Mar 30, 2007)

It's not my holiday, so it doesn't mean too much except, as Kacey says, everyone else is having a holiday so I get time off. 

There is an old story about various people being interviewed about Christmas and how they celebrate it.

The Catholic family said "We go to Midnight Mass. Then we get up early in the morning and go to Christmas Mass. We have breakfast, open the presents, and later on we have a big dinner."

The Protestant family said "We get up early in the morning. We open presents and have breakfast. Then we go to put on our best clothes, go to church and have a big dinner."

The Jewish family said "We get out of bed late. We have a long, leisurely breakfast. Then we get dressed and go out. We wander down to our warehouse, look at all the empty shelves and sing 'What a Friend We Have in Jesus'."


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## Last Fearner (Mar 31, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> What does Christmas mean to you?


 
"Christ Mass" ; The festival of Christ which celebrates the arrival of God on earth, in the flesh, the son of man. Does it matter when the festival is celebrated as to the day Jesus was born? No. The festival celebrates Anno Domini (A.D.), the year of our Lord. This celebration includes remembering the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary, the fulfilling of the prophecy of the Birth in Bethlehem, the visiting of the three kings (wisemen), the roman census which caused them to return to Nazareth, and the decision of King Herod to kill the babies under the age of two, which also fulfilled the prophecies. Each of these events, including the Baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist which brought the Holy Spirit to anoint Him all pertain to Christmas and lead to the resurrection, and return of Christ to the right hand of the Father.

Those who associate the festival season of Christmas with shopping, gifts, charities, crowded stores, and other modern frills simply miss the point. Those things are social events which can be performed in the spirit of Christianity, through the habit of family tradition, or the motivation of greed. If good comes of these actions, then all the better, but they do not diminish the reality of Christ, nor demean the reason for celebrating what the profits predicted, what God promised, and what most fail to appreciate.

Since some have replied to this thread with a rather dim view of the validity of Jesus as the anointed one, (based on their beliefs - or lack thereof), I shall reply with my reason for believing in Christmas as a significant religious holiday. Whether you know it or not, believe it or not, or can prove it or not: God is the creator, and all things are His creation. Failure to appreciate this, or understand it because of "human intellect" which believes scientific misdirection, and questioning all the evil and misfortune of the world, does not change the Truth.

In my opinion, anyone who rejects the reality of God, the authority of Jesus, and the notion of Christmas and Easter as frivolous, meaningless holidays without having fully read and studied the Holy Bible, and other relevant ancient documents (not just listened to superficial reports from others - but seriously researched it yourself), then you are acting on ignorance about a very serious subject.

What does it mean to me?

Christmas = A gift. The gift of a promise for redemption and the forgiveness of sins, to free God's children from the bonds and captivity of sin - to break the bonds of eternal death for those who have sinned.

Easter = The promise fulfilled.

Regardless of what confusion exists over other ancient festivals and customs that resemble Christian celebrations of the birth, death, and resurrection of Christ, these moments in history are well documented, and were established by God for the forgiveness of sins. We celebrate that gift by sharing gifts with others, and remembering the sacrifice that Jesus made - - an innocent man crucified for our sins. His blood shed as a sacrificial lamb so that we may have everlasting life - - after physical death. He was born for this purpose. His whole life was for this purpose. Therefore, Christmas and Easter are linked in a chain of events which were foretold by the prophets long before Jesus was born. I don't believe it is sensible to consider one, without linking it to the other.

I don't mean to offend anyone here who has different beliefs, but these are mine. Believe what you want, but do so based on information about these events, and not just a blanket denial because they don't sound plausible to the "logical brain," or because the packaging of the holiday has gotten out of hand by many who don't even follow the Christian faith.

Respectfully,
D. J. Eisenhart
______________________
Last Fearner


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## heretic888 (Mar 31, 2007)

Last Fearner said:


> In my opinion, anyone who rejects the reality of God, the authority of Jesus, and the notion of Christmas and Easter as frivolous, meaningless holidays without having fully read and studied the Holy Bible, and other relevant ancient documents (not just listened to superficial reports from others - but seriously researched it yourself), then you are acting on ignorance about a very serious subject.



What about those of us who _have_ researched this stuff and come to the very obvious and very historical conclusion that these purported "Christian" holidays are just a repackaging of Pagan holidays??

Hell, Christians didn't even celebrate this stuff until the 4th century.



Last Fearner said:


> Regardless of what confusion exists over other ancient festivals and customs that resemble Christian celebrations of the birth, death, and resurrection of Christ, these moments in history are well documented, and were established by God for the forgiveness of sins.



No, these moments in "history" are not "well documented". Otherwise, there wouldn't be so much debate about them, even among Christians.


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## Last Fearner (Apr 1, 2007)

heretic888 said:


> What about those of us who _have_ researched this stuff and come to the very obvious and very historical conclusion that these purported "Christian" holidays are just a repackaging of Pagan holidays??
> 
> Hell, Christians didn't even celebrate this stuff until the 4th century.


 
You might be right about the celebrations being "repackaged."  There are many similarities, and probably the carry over of specific rituals modified for Christian purposes.  Of course, this does not mean that the Christian events did not occur, nor that Jesus was the Christ.  Those debates are mostly supported by faith, and an interpretation of what little evidence does exist.  I would just hope that it does not become a foregone conclusion for many that because other Pagan holidays and rituals existed first, and are similar, that the choice of early Christians to celebrate in ways which were familiar to them means that the substance of the religion is false.



heretic888 said:


> No, these moments in "history" are not "well documented". Otherwise, there wouldn't be so much debate about them, even among Christians.


 
Actually, many of them are well documented, but the debate is mostly over the authenticity of any documents, the timing of their recording, the accuracy of events recounted, and the interpretation of those events.  Other events are recorded as undisputed parts of history, but do not reveal specific evidence of proof for the Christian faith, even though they are intertwined in the account of the life of Jesus.

I recently watched a T.V. special about the Bible where it showed the Egyptian hieroglyphics on the walls and pillars of buildings in the Egyptian cities mentioned in the Bible.  The story of Joseph who interpreted dreams for the Pharaoh was documented in these historical records just as it was re-counted in the Bible.

The prophets foretold of many events which came to pass, particularly in the life of Jesus.  Actions and events of the Romans, the migrations of the israelites, and numerous other key stories have been recorded as part of factual history.  The interpretation of these events, and what they mean in the large scheme of things is often debated.  Some events can not be proven to have occurred, but much of the history in any culture is oral.  I believe more conclusive evidence in support of Biblical stories exist than most people are aware of.

Here is a site that discusses the Archaeological discoveries which confirm the validity of Biblical accounts:
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn04/biblearchaeology.htm

Thanks for your response!  

D.J. Eisenhart
_________________
Last Fearner


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## Adept (Apr 1, 2007)

Last Fearner said:


> Whether you know it or not, believe it or not, or can prove it or not: God is the creator, and all things are His creation. Failure to appreciate this, or understand it because of "human intellect" which believes scientific misdirection, and questioning all the evil and misfortune of the world, does not change the Truth.



Thats an interesting opinion. Unfortunately, it has about as much *substance* as the theory of, say, Bigfoot, Nessie, alien abductions or the resurrection of Elvis.

Until we see some evidence to indicate otherwise, believing that god, as outlined in the bible, is real must be treated the same as any other fanciful theory.


Personally, Christmas to me is a time to buy gifts, recieve gifts, and spend time with family and friends. Also a very busy time at work!


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## heretic888 (Apr 1, 2007)

Last Fearner said:


> You might be right about the celebrations being "repackaged."  There are many similarities, and probably the carry over of specific rituals modified for Christian purposes.  Of course, this does not mean that the Christian events did not occur, nor that Jesus was the Christ.  Those debates are mostly supported by faith, and an interpretation of what little evidence does exist.  I would just hope that it does not become a foregone conclusion for many that because other Pagan holidays and rituals existed first, and are similar, that the choice of early Christians to celebrate in ways which were familiar to them means that the substance of the religion is false.



That depends on what you consider the "substance of the religion" to be.

However, as a matter of actual history, the New Testament is, from beginning to end, complete fiction. The "Jesus Christ" of the Markan Gospel is a literary construct created from Old Testament midrash and popular Greek fiction.




Last Fearner said:


> Actually, many of them are well documented, but the debate is mostly over the authenticity of any documents, the timing of their recording, the accuracy of events recounted, and the interpretation of those events.



Contrary to what you have been told, there is no real "debate". 

Most of the New Testament (including the Gospel of John) date to the second century and are almost entirely pseudipigraphica (meaning, they were not written by who claimed to have wrote them). The Gospels of Luke and Matthew are derivative of Mark, whom they copied word-for-word in the original Greek in some pericopes (an observation known as the Markan Priority Hypothesis). Luke, furthermore, is derivative of the Jewish historian Josephus and couldn't date before 95 CE.

This is similar to the "debate" about evolution in that it only occurs in fringe circles that have no influence in academia. 



Last Fearner said:


> I recently watched a T.V. special about the Bible where it showed the Egyptian hieroglyphics on the walls and pillars of buildings in the Egyptian cities mentioned in the Bible.  The story of Joseph who interpreted dreams for the Pharaoh was documented in these historical records just as it was re-counted in the Bible.



A curious occurrence, given that there is no documented evidence for any of the Old Testament stories prior to, say, 1000 BCE. Then again, "true believers" telling bold lies on public television is hardly a new thing.



Last Fearner said:


> The prophets foretold of many events which came to pass, particularly in the life of Jesus.  Actions and events of the Romans, the migrations of the israelites, and numerous other key stories have been recorded as part of factual history.



Its easy to record "factual history" when you are writing after the fact. The Old Testament dates to around 800 to 700 BCE, with its narrative evincing both historical anachronisms (such as Abraham using domesticated camels about a millenium before they were domesticated) as well as sociopolitical agenda. I would recommend Sigel & Finkelstein's _The Bible Unearthed_ for an actual objective look at the dating of the Old Testament.

As for the "life of Jesus", the Markan author used Old Testament stories as his storyboard. The life in question never happened, it was allegory from beginning to end.



Last Fearner said:


> Here is a site that discusses the Archaeological discoveries which confirm the validity of Biblical accounts:
> http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn04/biblearchaeology.htm



I would again suggest the aforementioned book on Biblical archeology, unless you're only interested in apologetic pseudoscience.


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## bluemtn (Apr 1, 2007)

_ATTENTION ALL USERS:

_Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-tkdgirl
-MT Moderator-


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## terryl965 (Apr 1, 2007)

*The Jewish family said "We get out of bed late. We have a long, leisurely breakfast. Then we get dressed and go out. We wander down to our warehouse, look at all the empty shelves and sing 'What a Friend We Have in Jesus'."*

Tellner I hope you was joking with this statement I kinda find this insulting to me:asian: and my heritage, you know we would get up early to go check out the warehouse early ever before breakfast
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





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## tellner (Apr 1, 2007)

It's an old, old joke. And considering that I'm Jewish, well...


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## terryl965 (Apr 1, 2007)

tellner said:


> It's an old, old joke. And considering that I'm Jewish, well...


 

Glad to hear it since I'am too. Great minds we have


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## tellner (Apr 1, 2007)

I actually heard it from the Rabbi who oversaw my Bar Mitzvah. It's shades of _Two Live Jews: As Kosher As They Wanna Be_ "Gentiles, don't tell these jokes. These jokes aren't as funny when Gentiles tell them." 

Unfortunately, one of my favorites turned out not to be so funny. For many years my dad was the local mohel. I got him a t-shirt that said "Prepuce Comes First! I'm With the Mohel Majority." The unfunny part was what my mom said to me when he had the poor taste to wear it in public


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## Ninjamom (Apr 1, 2007)

heretic888 said:


> .......The Old Testament dates to around 800 to 700 BCE, with its narrative evincing both historical anachronisms (such as Abraham using domesticated camels about a millenium before they were domesticated) as well as sociopolitical agenda. I would recommend Sigel & Finkelstein's _The Bible Unearthed_ for an actual objective look at the dating of the Old Testament.


A quick check of a source generally regarded as reliable and unbiased on this front (in this case _The Encyclopaedia Britannica_) sets the dates for domestication of camels at between 8,000 and 3,000 BC, meaning that camels were uniformly acknowledged to have been domesticated prior to the dates set for the Patriarchal (including Abrahamic) narratives in the Bible.

My point: It seems that both sides in this debate can succumb to the flaw of reading only those sources that support previously-held viewpoints. 

Heretic, if such a short, simple "fact check" can show a bias in your sources, it might give you cause to question some of the other dates and allegations of your sources.  In the meantime, while I deeply respect your right to hold whatever beliefs/views you choose, I would ask that, on this thread, all parties please continue with the original poster's intent and line of discussion.


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## heretic888 (Apr 1, 2007)

Ninjamom said:


> Heretic, if such a short, simple "fact check" can show a bias in your sources, it might give you cause to question some of the other dates and allegations of your sources.



First off, you seem to have some very confused ideas here. If a given source is factually inaccurate, that does not mean it is "biased". That just means it is factually inaccurate. There is no need to project a psychological motivation into a source when the evidence does not warrant it.  

That being said, I would ask that you do a little more in-depth research yourself. Suggesting that humans could have domesticated camels as early as 8,000 BCE is really absurd. The earliest _possible_ date, according to even conservative archaeologists, is around 3,000 BCE. More generally accepted dates are somewhere around 2,000 to 2,500 BCE.

However, this date still doesn't warrant the descriptions we find in the Old Testament. From Camels and dromedaries at Livius.Org:

The dromedary is easy to domesticate and the first evidence for tame dromedaries dates back to the late third millennium BCE. The domestication first happened on the Arabian peninsula, and it seems to have been connected to the exploitation of distant copper mines. However, it was only much later, in the tenth or ninth century BCE, that the dromedary became a really popular animal in the Near East.

From now on, long distance trade and desert nomadism became possible. The use of dromedaries in the second millennium BCE by nomadic tribes, as implied in the Biblical book Genesis, is almost certainly unhistorical and shows that Genesis was composed at a later age.​
However, this is something of a moot point as there are a number of anachronisms in both the Old and New Testament outside of the issue of camel domestication. Again, I would refer you to Sigel and Finkelstein's work.



Ninjamom said:


> In the meantime, while I deeply respect your right to hold whatever beliefs/views you choose, I would ask that, on this thread, all parties please continue with the original poster's intent and line of discussion.



The original poster's intent and line of discussion is what Christmas personally means to you. Outside of the reasons I have already cited, Christmas reminds me of the power of groupthink within human organizations.


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## Last Fearner (Apr 2, 2007)

Ninjamom said:


> whatever beliefs/views you choose, I would ask that, on this thread, all parties please continue with the original poster's intent and line of discussion.


 
I was about to suggest the same thing!  Thank you Ninjamom for bringing this to everyone's attention.

This thread should have remained about "what Christmas means to you," not whether or not you believe there is a God, or if Christ was a real person or the son of God.  If Christmas means nothing religious to you, then say so, and leave it at that.  It was not my intention to drive this thread from an inquiry about Christmas, to a debate about the Bible and Christianity.  However, when this thread was recently revived, I read it for the first time, and noticed many people doing more than just saying what Christmas meant to them, and leaving it at that, but they were basically calling Christianity a sham, lies, and without foundation in facts.

I should have split off to a different thread in the first place in order to respond, but I will do so now.  I hope that those who are interested in a polite and respectful discussion of this topic would join me there, rather than continuing to drag out replies here, making the offense worse than it is.

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=761662#post761662

Last Fearner


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## Carol (Apr 2, 2007)

That is correct, when I started it, I was curious to hear input from different folks...whether or not they observe the birth of Christ Jesus as a holy day or not as it is a time when many people tend to get together with family, friends, or even enjoy a bit of quiet time to themselves.


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