# confused about an issue



## Erik H (Jul 26, 2006)

Before I start, I want to point out that I have at least 10 yrs training and instruction in various martial arts so I do exercise control every time I train. I happen to come across a martial arts school that turned out to be a Ninpo school (apologies but I have to withhold the name but it is DEFINATELY a well reknowned organization) and watched as they did their bokuto exercises. I watched the instructor demonstrate various techniques and realized that everything he was teaching, I had done the same exact exercises a hundred times already and knew what he was going to do as he did them without any formal sword training on my end. I am still in total awe of his abilities and have the utmost respect for that teacher. After class, I discussed with him the details of the techniques. I am NOT claiming that I am on par with a certified instructor nor am I claiming that I have or will teach any sword art after that observation. Now, my question is, would I be out of place to show other students those certain techniques after realizing that I had been doing them correctly all along? I do not want to offend any practitioner of the sword arts and I definately don't want to come across as a wannabe. I ask that all reaponses be serious. Thanks. 

Erik H


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## Andrew Green (Jul 26, 2006)

So where did you initially learn them?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 27, 2006)

Are you asking if it's ok to teach on your own, or to help others at that school improve?  If it's the later, I'd say it would depend on if the instructor there said t was ok.


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## Erik H (Jul 27, 2006)

We used to do club defenses in my former Tae Kwon Do classes.  The PVC clubs were about the size of baseball bats to simulate realism.  The defenses included disarms and the more we worked on that the more I began holding the bat like a sword. I got a crazy idea and bought a cheap bokken and went through the same scenarios at home using improvisation and a lot of imagination and basically fooling around.  I never trained with a partner because I had not studied any sword arts and didn't feel comfortable having a duel with an unfamiliar weapon with no training or supervision with it.  One thing led to another and it sorta happened.  I helped the instructor of the school now to earn his Black Belt and we have always been cool with each other so I know he wouldn't have any trouble with anything new.   

Erik H


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## Ceicei (Jul 27, 2006)

So basically what you're saying is that you are "self-trained" with a bokken?

- Ceicei


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## Erik H (Jul 27, 2006)

more like stumbled upon it to find out they actually work.  But it has inspired me to continue training with it.


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## shesulsa (Jul 27, 2006)

Well ... let me put my point this way, if you don't mind, sir.

There are people who shoot - a lot - and have for 20 plus years.  Probably grew up doing it.  But while they might have an instinct for what they do and do it well, they might be missing some important things and might not make the best teachers.

Then of course there are those who are certified to teach firearms that aren't that great at firearms and have little experience.

I would feel personally irresponsible teaching sword training having not trained "officially" at least to some degree and with some approval of someone who's instruction i think is valuable and I would respect.

I've worked with swords for years, but not often enough for me to feel totally comfortable teaching anything but the most BASIC exercise ... and even then with the caveat that we are all training.

My .02


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## Carol (Jul 27, 2006)

Yes you would be out of place sir, and I'll explain why. 

Swords have something in common with other bladed weapons and firearms.  They were designed specifically for the taking of human life, and they can do so very quickly, sometimes even before the vicitim realizes that something is seriously wrong.   To forgo formal training is to show a disrespect (or worse) for the threat of a deadly weapon. 

On a finer point...a bad singer often doesn't realize how bad they truly are until their performance improves and they can see how they have come along.  Your commitment to the arts is commendable, and you likely do have a discriminating eye and experienced powers of observation.  

You may be able to do an exercise, but you do not necessarily know how to do it well. I hope your deep experience in the art has shown you how truly important it is to train with a teacher, to learn something right the first time, and to trust in the teacher to pick up on the minutae of your performance in cycles of ever - improving criticism.   I do believe that your experience in the arts has given you respect for how precious a good teacher truly is.  It seems apparant in the way that you speak about the Ninpo Sensei.

While I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm sir, I hope you understand that I'll tie this all together and say....to dismiss the the background, error checking, and solidity of responsible teaching as irrelevant to teaching a deadly weapon is not proper, not respectful, and not responsible.

If you believe that you know enough to teach sword, then first use your talents to attract an appropriate instructor that will stand on their reputation to say you know what you know.  For if your skills truly are as strong as you say they are, then an instructor will make very short work of your training, yes?  :asian:


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## Erik H (Jul 27, 2006)

serious opinions are always appreciated.  I agree with alot of the statements, like I said I am in NO way on par with a certified sword instructor but if you are unable to receive proper training and you realize that you're on to something, what do you do?  I was only referring to a bokken/shinai.  I think Shinken is a long way away but I see your point, Carol.  This instructor is in a different county than I so unfortunately I don't have the oppurtunity to train with him and as an instructor myself I wouldn't want someone to perverse my teachings either.  Skilled in MA, yes.  Skilled in the Sword, far from but maybe one day.  Maybe this is one of those timmes you should just stick to what you know.  Thanks for the replies ladies and gentlemen. 

Erik H


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## Carol (Jul 27, 2006)

Erik H said:
			
		

> serious opinions are always appreciated. I agree with you, like I said I am in NO way on par with a certified instructor but if you are unable to receive proper training and you realize that you've seen certain techniques that you have practiced actually taught, what do you do?
> Erik H


 
Then you deem the flesh, blood, and souls of the people around you as more important than you own desires and urges, and show no one.  If you must draw upon the strength and discpline you learned after 10 years in the arts to squelch those urges - do it.


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## Erik H (Jul 27, 2006)

thanks again

Erik H


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## Don Roley (Jul 27, 2006)

Erik H said:
			
		

> Maybe this is one of those timmes you should just stick to what you know.  Thanks for the replies ladies and gentlemen.




Good choice. 

I just want to point out one thing. There have been times when I have seen an instructor do something and thought I knew what he was doing. But not too long into practicing the move I had him come over to show me that I had mistakes and missed certain points. If he had not, I would be convinced that I was doing the same thing he was.

If you did not actually train and pass muster under his eyes, then there is the very real possibility that this explains why you thought you would be doing the same thing that the instructor did. That is why some of us are so down on things like video instruction. A blind spot is not only something that you don't know, but that you _don't know_ that you don't know. You need a teacher to point out your blind spots for you.

Hope this helps you look at training in the future.


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## shesulsa (Jul 27, 2006)

Erik H said:
			
		

> ... if you are unable to receive proper training and you realize that you're on to something, what do you do?  ...


The responsible thing and bide your time. 


			
				Erik H said:
			
		

> This instructor is in a different county than I so unfortunately I don't have the oppurtunity to train with him and as an instructor myself I wouldn't want someone to perverse my teachings either.


Have you entertained talking to your current teacher about your yearnings for formal sword training and desire to include it in your passing-on-of-knowledge?  Perhaps s/he could or would recommend someone s/he respects.  If not, you could ask permission to seek the training yourself.  I suggest this based on the *assumption* that you are training a traditional art.

Please let me say:  It appears from your posts in this thread that your desire is to pass on quality instruction and all that you know such that martial arts can be preserved.  Your willingness to refrain without some formal training is admirable indeed.  Kudos!

I hope you are able to find a good teacher to help shape your raw ability with shinai. :asian:


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## Swordlady (Jul 27, 2006)

Hi Eric...you already got a lot of good advice, so I don't want to repeat myself.  I think you have a great attitude about learning the sword arts.  Learning to teach others will come in time.  Even the most talented among us started as students.


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## Erik H (Jul 27, 2006)

thanks alot for all the info and good advice.  I have spoken to the instructor before in regards to other types of weapons training and between the two of us I am the only one who has any type of access to a certified JSA instructor but he is still the head instructor so it might be best to let him handle it.  As far as rank goes in our system, I am looked at as an instructor as well and I have actually assisted in training our current instructor to his black belt.  Anyway, sword arts training, biding time and patience seem like a good idea.  Thanks to all who have posted and I appreciate the courtesy and seriousness. 

Erik h


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 27, 2006)

Erik H said:
			
		

> thanks alot for all the info and good advice. I have spoken to the instructor before in regards to other types of weapons training and between the two of us I am the only one who has any type of access to a certified JSA instructor but he is still the head instructor so it might be best to let him handle it. As far as rank goes in our system, I am looked at as an instructor as well and I have actually assisted in training our current instructor to his black belt. Anyway, sword arts training, biding time and patience seem like a good idea. Thanks to all who have posted and I appreciate the courtesy and seriousness.
> 
> Erik h


 
Keep training and do your best.  Seek out qualified instruction.  If you enjoyed the Ninpo art that you observed, (hopefully Bujinkan) then hopefully you can attend seminars even if they are far away.  Good luck and understand that in order to teach something you need to have a basis of referance and depth. (qualifed instruction)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Carol (Jul 27, 2006)

Erik H said:
			
		

> thanks alot for all the info and good advice. I have spoken to the instructor before in regards to other types of weapons training and between the two of us I am the only one who has any type of access to a certified JSA instructor but he is still the head instructor so it might be best to let him handle it. As far as rank goes in our system, I am looked at as an instructor as well and I have actually assisted in training our current instructor to his black belt. Anyway, sword arts training, biding time and patience seem like a good idea. Thanks to all who have posted and I appreciate the courtesy and seriousness.
> 
> Erik h


 
See how things go.  Your instructor may be delighted that you have interest in getting properly trained in a sword art to where you become strong enough to teach someday.

At my own school (Kenpo) we have instructors that have trained in or even earned black belts in other arts on their journey.  The head instructor is happy to have them teach seperate mini-classes in other specialties because the other instructors have a bakcgrond to do so.  The classes haven't been enough to award rank, nor are the instructors interested in teaching any art other than Kenpo.  But, the teaching has been enough to expose the rest of us to a new art that we have not seen before, and to me that has been very rewarding 

Erik, IMO you are doing a great job by wondering aloud, asking questions, and wanting to offer the due respects to bladed arts that they deserve.  With the proper training, I think you will not only make an excellent swordsman but a fantastic instructor as well.   Your passion is fantastic, your poise and clear-thinking is a credit to the dedication that you have put to your years of training.

Keep your eyes open, and keep looking for ways you can get sword training.  You may get fortunate enough to discover options above and beyond what are in front of you right now 

Keep up the great work :asian:


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